Talk:Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race/Archive 1

message: a number of students who live along the trail who want to contibute timely information about snow and trail conditions here....as well as add live race updates during the actual race. We don't want to clutter the main Iditarod page with that. Thoughts, anyone?
BSSD UNK 17:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

message: I agree that this article is shameless grandstanding by an animal rights advocate. Definitely not neutral. Rsduhamel 21:41, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: In checking the history of this article I found that anonymous editor 205.188.116.146 deleted the original article when he/she added his/her negative monologue. I put the original material back into the article and put a "Controversy" heading before the negative material. Rsduhamel 22:14, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  More NPOV 

message: What is the consensus on this article? Is it fixed or does it still need work?
----
It looks fixed to me.  If no one says anything here in a week, and it's still marked NPOV at that time, I'll change it. --Dbenbenn 17:22, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixed? 

message: In the section for "firsts" (first to win 4 times, first woman to win, etc), wouldn't it be interesting to note that Robert Sorlie in 2003 was the first non-American to win? Being Norwegian myself, I'm biased, so I figured I'd ask for second opinions on it first before adding. – Rafiki (talk) 08:57, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely. (I added it as part of my recent expansions; he still needs an article though, and you can probably read his website better than I :) 68.81.231.127 18:05, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll see if I can get something started; might wait a bit into the Iditarod to get a better feel for it all and into the spirit of things again ;) – Rafiki (talk) 09:51, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  First non-American? 

message: I think the dogs section should be merged into the sled dog article, with only a "main article" link and summary here, and info specific to Iditarod dogs.  This article is too long already, it is tangential info here, and the sled dog article could use the help.  Gene Nygaard 11:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I support this idea  CanadaGirl 11:24, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dogs

message: In the section of Ceremonial Start, it is stated "The first musher to depart at 10AM AST is an honorary musher, selected for their contributions to dog sledding. From the first race in 1973 until 1980, the honorary musher was Leonhard Seppala, who covered the longest distance in the 1925 diphtheria serum run."  
Then following the Seppala link, it is stated "Leonhard Seppala (September 14, 1877 – 1967) was a Norwegian of...".  
Apparently, Mr. Seppala passed away 6 years prior to being the honorary musher.
:A number of honorary mushers received the award after death. The father of the Iditarod (Joe Redington, Sr.) died in 1999, and was named honorary musher the next year (2000). The mother of the Iditarod (Dorothy Page) died in 1989, but didn't become an honorary musher until 1997. See. 68.84.34.154 20:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Consistency

message: After moving it around a little and trying to NPOV it up slightly, I became suspicious of the tone of the section I'd been working with and did a Google search for "In the Iditarod, dogs are forced to run 1,150 miles".  Sure enough, it's a copyvio.  Some parts might not be, and the controversy probably needs to be mentioned somewhere, but I'm not going to sort through it at this point. --Aquillion 01:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is getting pretty obvious that SleddogAC is going to keep adding the non-NPOV information.  I suggest that we put in a Controversy section and label it non-NPOV until it can be edited in way that does not violate any of Wikipedia's policies. --Coaster1983 14:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Edit: I did put in the Controversy section and put in a NPOV-section tag.  I think the controversial aspect of the race needs to be discussed in the article. However, the current negative bias of the section is in violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy.  The rest of the article is fine.  I think that this section can be a excellent addition to the article if everyone works together.  --Coaster1983 16:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Icleaned up recent controversial additions in Dogs and Mushers sections since we now have a Controversy section.--Feyer 17:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy 

message: OK folks, below is a list of Iditarod winners. Where is the list of the 130 known dogs that have died in the Iditarod and the 
reasons why they died. This is yet again another example of the editors' bias in favor of the Iditarod. The stated goal of Wikipedia is to be neutral. If that's true, where is the list of the dead dogs? Why aren't we told how the dogs died?
:I am all for listing the names of the dogs and the offical reason for deaths.  I know that recent dog deaths can be found either on the offical website or through Anchorage Daily News.  However, does someone have verifable sources of deaths from 1975 to 1997? --Coaster1983 21:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. This section is about the Iditarod winners. There is a controversy section where this would be more appropriate.--Feyer 11:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes dogs have died during the Iditarod. Whether it is 130 or not during the 33 year history is unknown. This year, 1328 dogs were entered in the race, and 4 expired during the event. Dogs have a lifespan of 10-12 years, so we would expect 5 dogs to expire out of that population during that period under normal circumstances. Recognition that dog deaths occur during the event is not controversial, however asserting that each death is caused because of the race is. --Feyer 13:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Mushers won't use puppies in the iditarod. The youngest they will use are 2 year olds but typically they wait until they are 3 with some experience. The deaths this year were 3 4 and 5 year olds. Each death in the race is followed by a gross necropsy, and reported to the media. Admittedly, this hasn't always been the practice. --Feyer 19:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Jim Rome can hardly be considered neutral. The reference to "The Last Great Race", as you rightly point out, that can not be considered neutral and has been removed.--Feyer 19:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog Deaths 

message: Please remember that Wikipedia follows a neutral point of view policy. Most of the 'controversy' section in this article read very much like a rant or a piece of propaganda. I've removed most of it, so the section is a bit short now, but feel free to expand it. However, when making accusations, please remember to cite your sources and present your arguments in a neutral way (this includes not using words such as 'brutality'). Also please remember that copyrighted material is not allowed on Wikipedia. - ulayiti (talk) 19:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not a soapbox.]] 

message: Why did you delete the material I published on the page about the Iditarod? Did you see that the material was referenced? Wikipedia articles in their totality are supposed to be neutral. How can the article be neutral if the animal protection viewpoint isn't given equal weight? Regardless of your viewpoint on the Iditarod, I think that you need to be fair. I was in the process of adding more documentation. If you had concerns, why didn't you write to me first? For example, if it's OK to say that Iditarod lovers think the race is a test of perseverance, it should be OK to say what animal protection activists think. Information of this sort-- what both sides think-- is what will make the article neutral. SledDogAC 9 May 2006
: Most of it was propaganda, and at least some of it was taken verbatim from the Internet, making it a copyright violation. Feel free to add more information to the article, as long as it's written in an unbiased way and it's legal to have it on Wikipedia.
: Oh, and I don't have a 'viewpoint' on the Iditarod at all. In fact, I'd never even heard of it before I came across this little situation you've got here. - ulayiti (talk) 20:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's your own copyright, you're actually voiding it by releasing the material under the GNU Free Documentation Licence. So it's not copyrighted any more (read: you don't have the copyright for it any more), but it's still grossly against the principles of Wikipedia and not encyclopaedic. I've requested protection for this article at WP:RFP. - ulayiti (talk) 09:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Animal protection point of view is certainly necessary. However, the article needs to be neutral point of view. Your concern for the animals, however well meaning, is not a neutral point of view towards the editting of this article. Locking the page at this point probably is necessary since there's a full on revert war, instead of trying to incorporate changes. Dstanfor 14:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia has a neutral point of view policy. Remember, the focus of this article is about the race. There is some controversy and that should be mentioned from a neutral point of view, however the focus of the article is the race and not the controversy, so take a measured approach, and remember, Wikipedia is not a soapbox to push personal agendas. Most of your material is copied word for word from other web sites. It is OK to reformulate ideas in your own words while citing sources thus avoiding plagiarism.--Sk8ski 13:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep your criticism in the "Criticism from animal rights groups" section. Do not intersperse it into the text.  You can add your links there.  Copyright violations are an issue because cannot know that you are the original author of content from various other sites.  So please reword.
--Thalia42 23:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia shouldn't be a soapbox for Iditarod lovers

message: I've been to the ceremonial start, and this section misses the mark. There is no mobbing of the mushers and dogs and the teams don't run into the crowds. I can find no reference that says this is the most trying portion of the race. In fact when I spoke to Aliy Zirkle, she said this is the most enjoyable portion given the time does not count and the distance is short. I'll try to make some corrections to this section.--Feyer 11:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ceremonial Start 

message: Since Martin Buser won for the first time in 1992, and did not become an american citizen until 2002, wouldn't that make him the first foreigner to win the Iditarod?
Snakemike 10:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on how you define foreigner. He moved to Wasilla Alaska in 1979, so in fact had been living in the US for 13 years before winning the race. How about first "foreign born"?--Feyer 12:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia defines a foreigner as a person who is not a "native or naturalized citizen" (Foreigner --> Alien) Snakemike 12:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You make a solid case. I suggest you make the change. Maybe it will help Martin get back in the groove! Sørlie still deserves an honorable mention I think. --Feyer 12:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright I changed the wording (and I saw you changed the flag). Do you think the wording is ok? Snakemike 13:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good. I think we need to change home state of Swingley. He lives in Montana.--Feyer 14:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martin Buser 

message: Because dogs and other animals are not machines or inanimate objects, they should not be referred to as "it" or "its" in the article. I am going to edit the words "it" or "its" that refer to sentient beings-- animals. 24 May 2006 SledDogAC
¨
:Other articles mirror your point and use the animals name instead of "it", for example in Dog. Doesn't read as nice, however technically you are correct. Funny thing though is that wiktionary:It means Dog in turkish (scroll to the bottom) Snakemike 09:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dogs and other animals aren't machines and shouldn't be refered to as "it" or "its"

message: Hi SleddogAC, is there a reason you edited the wording of the sentence ( and ) twice? I removed the wording to a more neutral version. Please provide numbers if you are to modify that again. Snakemike 15:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of activists 

message: Apart for some slight edit-warring, the article has been stable for a while now and from the comments I think many consider it as NPOV. Unless I hear otherwise, I will therefore remove the tag by June 30th --Snakemike 06:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. --Feyer 16:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I also agree. --Coaster1983 22:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV achieved? 

message: I think that the lead section needs to be modified a bit.  Instead of the individual finish times of the three mushers, I would suggest using the 8-15 day range.
I also suggest incorporating the Overview section into the lead since it seems redundant for two sections to overview the article.
:The above is my orginal comment.  I have finally merged the Overveiw section into the lead section.  I went through the article history and found that someone had divided up the lead section by inserted a section title in March 2006.  I also rewrote some of the lead section.  I removed the times of two mushers as they were not necessary.
:I am interested in hearing any comments.Coaster1983 15:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead Section 

message: The Anchorage, AK article says the dog in the statue is mistaken for, but is not in fact, Balto. If this is the case, this article needs to change, as does the caption and title of the image. Nat 00:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dog statue not Balto? 

message: It would appear that a group is intentionaly targeting Wikipedia to have this information included in the article.  The sheer number of edits from various accounts and IP addresses makes this clear.  Probably some PETA freaks who can't see the reality of the situation. Alyeska 18:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More likely the same user, SledDogAC, editing through AOL to circumvent a block.Voice-of-All 18:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The constant Critcisms additions

message: This article says "From the first race in 1973 until 1980, the honorary musher was Leonhard Seppala, who covered the longest distance in the 1925 diphtheria serum run" but Leonard Seppala says he died in 1967.  At least one of them needs fixing.
Nat 00:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not an inconsistency, it's just unclear. The honorary musher doesn't have to be alive. Dorothy Page, for instance, was the honorary musher in 1997, despite dying in 1989. -Pat | 68.42.4.76 21:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seppala inconsistency 

message: *I think this page needs protection from vandals and animal rights zealots!--Hailey 00:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs protection

message: I think this article sorely needs some kind of a map of the course, rather than just a description. That's pretty fundamental, no? Mycroft7 17:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which course? the start frequently moves, theres a north route for... even years, I think, and a south course for odd years (odd and even may be reversed, my memories failing atm). There may be a chance to create a basic map showing both routes, but the race changes too often to do a detailed map. -Mask? 08:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map of the course?