Talk:Pope Pius XI

message: I think that the following part might fit better to the article "Laterna treaties": The concordat also entailed an agreement with Italy that provided for monies being transfered to the Church to aid with the transition and intended as a compensation for the loss of the territories laid claim to by the Church (estimated to be around 700 million Lire). During the reign of Pope Pius XI this money was used for investments in the stock markets and real estate that laid the foundation of the modern wealth of the church. To control these investments, the Pope appointed the lay-person Bernadino Nogara. He accepted the task on the condition that the Pope would not interfere with his investments. This led to later scandals where it turned out that the church owned weapons factories and a company which listed among its biggest sales items the most used contraceptive pill in Italy. Gugganij 08:17, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: A discussion occurred at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)/Style War proposed solution about a solution to the ongoing style wars on Wikipedia. The consensus favoured replacing styles at the start of articles by an infobox on styles in the article itself. I have added in the relevant infobox to this article. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 23:08, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Styles infobox

message: 1) At first, I was surprised when I saw Cornwell's Thief in the Night as reference to Pius XI, but I guess that book strays from its actual topic to other supposedly murdered popes. Am I right in my assumption? (It's been more than ten years since I read it so I can't remember).
::Yes:  Cornwell mentions the hypothesis that Pius XI was poisoned immediately before delivering an even harsher criticism of Nazism than he previously had done.  Robert McClenon 15:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Two small items

message: good to see amplification here . The teachings I quoted of this Pius XI could be more  clear . I seem to remember  considerable  clarity on the social front, expressed in a manner contemporaries would  understand, being  openly and positively social . 
If these  see also links disappear , then the analysis will have to enter here . Is it there is no  mention of his anti-communism here , as such ? It is such that enters the Rkkdt analysis  ,  and  to at least be at least on a par with this  recent justified  amplification . Log in , user ?EffK 10:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Analysis link

message: I removed the following section from the article on Pius XII:
:On September 6, 1938, in a statement published worldwide (except for censorship in fascist countries like Germany and Italy, Pius XI said:
:Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we are all Semites.
If appropriate insert it in the proper context Gugganij 09:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pius XI's statement on Anti-Semitism 

message: All that new editing by 138.130.69.164 looks like a paraphase of the Encyclopedia Britannica article.  What is the source?  I don't want to have to revert it all. patsw 02:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  138.130.69.164 

message: The article sins by omitting this Pope's well known anti-communism. The tag for POV over-all is accurate , and that of Dubious, is accurate. I do not feel that my good faith in this matter will be allowed, so I seek a  new consensus to build the proper history  , from users whose good faith I have not already tested .EffK 13:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Article Sins by Omission

message: I am removing the NPOV banner because EffK has not stated in language that I understand what he wants changed.  If he can state what he wants changed, the banner can stand, or the changes can be made.  Robert McClenon 15:27, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: I was toying with the possibility of delaying a re-balancing of this article simply that it should straightway demonstrate the remaining extent of Wikipedia massage in the politico-religious field. I am now perforce  delayed anyway  but will hope that sanity will prevail and that someone else will be capable should my silence be gained. I would remind the catholic editors of their duty and that the divine magisterium which confirms the faith, conflicts with the canon requiring  defensive  allegiance to the pontiff  . Perhaps interesting would be to consider whether a true catholic, ie someone acting within this last canon, would need to do so in the case of a deceased pontiff. I doubt it and I doubt that there is a canon for that  anyway.
this poor man must turn in his grave , and needs great help , if you believe in christ. EffK 22:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Delay

message: Where exactly is the source that John Paul II's documents went missing after his death??? I haven't read a thing about it. 68.175.27.35 00:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing Documents????

message: Did Pope Pius XI really say it?  I read this in some book (Truth Encounter by Anthony Pezzotta) but it did not cite the source.
No, he didn't. I think you are confusing him with an earlier Pope, Pope Pius IX, who supposedly said something much milder: "I am the tradition", i.e. the tradition of the Church is embodied in and protected by the papacy.
:another question, what was Pius XI's stance on the Italian conquest of Abyssinia (Ethiopia), a fellow Christian nation? Other articles make mention of this, and I am wondering about the authenticity. The Jackal God 01:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am God on the earth 

message: Regarding the Lateran Treaty signed in 1929, would it be appropriate to add that Pope Pius XI was actually a king?
80.7.1.64 20:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kingship? 

message: If John Cornwell is correct in "Hitler's Pope" that the 1933 concordat with Hitler removed Catholic political involvement in Germany, this would deal a serious blow to the article's contention that the pope's primary goal was for Catholic influence at all levels of society. At the least, mention ought to be made of the conflict between the concordat and the goal.
----------------------------------------------------------
Not necessarily so. The Vatican opposed Catholic clerics in politics and the use of the "Catholic Church" as a cover for legislation. How  does one define a Catholic economic stimulus package as opposed to a Protestant or Jewish one? On the other hand, the Vatican encouraged Catholic lay people be be involved in politics and all levels of society, but not as THE spokesperson of their Church. --Ambrosius007 (talk) 21:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Destruction of Catholic Political Involvement in Germany 

message: Hi there. I liked the article overall, but I've gone through the section on Spain and I've found a couple of things worth commenting, in my humble opinion. Anyway, I've put citation tags where I think they're urgently needed; 
- "This encouraged Catholics to support the military coup against the Republican government in 1936 led by General Francisco Franco. The Republicans responded by murdering priests and nuns." Hrem. Yes, priests and nuns were brutally murdered. But the way it's put is tendentious, don't you think? It sounds a bit like "Oh, you support Franco now, do you, you dirty so and sos? Now we're going to shoot you all". Which of course wasn't the case ;) Also, not all Catholics supported the military uprising. The Catholic Church as an institution (and therefore the pope)and most of the clergy did, but not "Catholics" as a whole. Anyway, I really think this line ought to be changed a wee bit. And finally, the way it's expressed, it's almost stating that the Republican government officially responding by murdering clergy. Which, unless you can give a source or citation, is streching it all out a bit too much, don't you think?
- "Pius XI gave moderate support to Franco and the Nationalist forces in the Spanish Civil War of 1936–39, however it is also said that he wished both parties to reconcile, to stop the war." Italics added. Ayayay. Got ya, weasel ;) I think this statement is important enough to be given more attention, and deserves at least to be referenced, no? :)
Cheers! Dr Benway 14:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spain, the Republic, and the usual stuff :P  

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BetacommandBot (talk) 16:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:PiusXICOA.jpg

message: Is there any particular reason this page doesn't have the papal style box, as do most, if not all, of the other popes' pages? Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:21, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Style box

message: "This encyclical condemned particularly the paganism of the national-socialism ideology, the myth of race and blood, and the fallacy of their conception of God."
Um. I think we can let the encyclical speak for itself. "Paganism of the national-socialism ideology", "the myth of race and blood", "the fallacy of their conception of God"? How exactly did this get past the wiki censors? PyroGamer (talk) 13:20, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy Extreme Bias Batman! 

message: There are a number of passages in this article so badly written that their significance is, to me at least, all but unrecognizable. For instance:
 
"Achille Ratti underwent the most unusual papal career in the 20th century. Throughout his life he was an accomplished scholar, librarian but humble priest." The first sentence seems rather a remarkable assertion in view of the unique careers of Beatus John XXIII and John Paul II, and should probably be defended somewhere in the following lengthy paragraph; so far as I could tell, it wasn't. As for the second sentence, even if one corrects the grammatical errors, it still seems oddly unrelated to the rest of the paragraph.
 
"A related issue, so Pius is the relation between capital and labour and the determination of fair wages." Should this, perhaps, be, "A related issue, according to Pius, is the relation between capital and labour," etc.? This sort of thing appears a couple times in the "Public Teaching" section.
 
"The actual writing of the text is credited to Munich Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber to the Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli..." This should read either "... is credited by Cardinal von Faulhaber to the Cardinal Secretary of State..." or "...credited to Cardinal von Faulhaber by the Cardinal Secretary of State". As it stands, I'm not sure which the author meant. (Whichever it is, the assertion would seem to merit a citation of some sort.)
 
"Pius XI will be remembered as the pope who reigned between the two great wars of the 20th century." Like, duh. This seems to be more a statement about the legacies of World Wars I and II than about the legacy of Pope Pius.
 
These are just the first four that caught my eye. I'm sure I could find others if I looked. All things considered, a fairly significant technical overhaul might not be the worst thing that could happen to this page. -Agur bar Jacé (talk) 19:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  General Stylistic Issues 

message: The caption under the photo of the enthroned Pius XI in the section "Internal Church affairs and ecumenism" says "Warsaw forced his departure as Nuncio."
Should the article say why this extraordinary expulsion occurred? Torontonian1 (talk) 14:17, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nuncio Ratti in Warsaw 

message: The article has this sentence "The actual writing of the text is credited to Munich Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber to the Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli, who later became Pope Pius XII."
I am not clear why there are two "to..." prepositional phrases: "to Munich Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber" and "to the Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli".
What exactly are we trying to communicate with this sentence?
--Richard (talk) 16:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber who drafted the encyclical. Cardinal Pacelli had his input but as far as I'm aware no academic who is a specialist in the subject credits it to Pacelli. See main article on the encyclical for refs. Taam (talk) 17:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So, do we just delete the words "to the Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli"? --Richard (talk) 02:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mit Brennender Sorge 

message: I have looked over this article and I have come to the conclusion that it is written like an essay or comes off sounding like one because parts of it continues on with what Pope Pius XI−believed without coming back and clarifying that is what he said−and I shall tag it as such. Some parts of the article (looking at Revision 386771353) that make me think this:
*The Church has a role in discussing the issues related to the social order. Social and economic issues are vital to her not from a technical point of view but in terms of moral and ethical issues involved.
*Pius XI believed that industrialization results in less freedom at the individual and communal level, because numerous free social entities get absorbed by larger ones. The society of individuals becomes the mass class-society. People are much more interdependent than in ancient times, and become egoistic or class-conscious in order to save some freedom for themselves. The pope demands more solidarity, especially between employers and employees, through new forms of cooperation and communication.
*His last words to those near him were spoken with clarity and firmness: My soul parts from you all in peace
*Pius XI will be remembered as the pope who reigned between the two great wars of the 20th century.
*A theological conservative, he strove to improve the condition of the Church, through the negotiation of the concordats (treaties) in Europe and to increase its strength worldwide through vigorous missionary work.
--Melab±1 ☎ 01:37, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Essay Like 

message: 'Mentioning in passing' (as possibly too trivial for the article): Ratti, while on the staff of the Ambrosian Library  knew Wilfrid Voynich (see ), and he was able to use a gun ). Jackiespeel (talk) 15:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Obscure Pius XI facts

message: Regarding this sentence:
He issued numerous encyclicals including Quadragesimo Anno highlighting capitalistic greed of 
international finance, social justice issues and Quas Primas establishing the feast of Christ the King.
JohnLloydScharf (talk) 00:36, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objectivity Versus Politics 

message: The opening summary is jumbled--going back and forth between subjects. A more chronological approach here would read better.
And in the second paragraph, what is the point of this sentence: "He celebrated his 60th birthday as a priest on 31 May 1917"? Hundreds of thousands of priests celebrate their 60th birthdays as clergy. James K. Workman (talk) 13:41, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The point of the sentence is to show how rapid his rise in the church was after that date.  Most popes were cardinals or at least bishops by their 60th birthdays.  He was a priest (not yet a bishop) at 60, but within five years was pope.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.34.4.89 (talk) 02:03, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening summary jumbled 

message: The section on the Lateran Treaty states that Italian bishops were required by the treaty to swear allegiance to the government of Italy. I've read the Lateran Treaty and do not find this requirement. Does anyone know the documentation for the claim in the wiki article? If not, shouldn't it be removed?James K. Workman (talk) 03:14, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: it's what the RS say. (1) "ensuring that the clergy were forbidden to take part in politics and that bishops swore allegiance to the Italian state." says ; (2) John A. Hardon - Christianity in the twentieth century (1971) p 317 says " the swearing of allegiance to the King by bishops"; (3) Albjerg, Europe from 1914 to the present (1951) p 234 says "Archbishops, bishops, and coadjutors were to be appointed by the Pope, but with the approval of the state, to whom they should swear allegiance." (4) the Catholic magazine Commonweal (1943): " such as the oath of allegiance to be taken by bishops and parish priests, to the fascist regime." Rjensen (talk) 04:01, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Rjensen--Thank you for the references. Since the oath of allegiance is such a big moral issue, would you be willing to put this documentation in at that point? BTW--I'm a newbie--what does RS stand for?James K. Workman (talk) 15:34, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: RS = "reliable secondary source."  Look at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources Rjensen (talk) 16:58, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I read the link about sources. And thank you for adding a citation on this subject.James K. Workman (talk) 17:20, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lateran Treaty and bishops' oath to Italy 

message: The section Condemnation of Racism concludes with a long important quote analyzing the differences between Pius XI and Pius XII. Isn't a citation needed for a quotation?James K. Workman (talk) 17:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Citation added. Thank you Rjensen.James K. Workman (talk) 17:25, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed for quote analyzing Pacelli 

message: The corrected text now indicates that the syllabus against racism was never published. Do the authors cited venture a reason? Would it not be relevant to include the fact that the pope was 81, in poor health, and would die within less than a year? This would hedge against the idea that he just didn't like the text of the syllabus. It doesn't need to be suggested (unless there is evidence) that the syllabus was suppressed (by E. Pacelli?).James K. Workman (talk) 14:21, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syllabus against racism--why not published? 

message: The text "Following Vatican custom, his successor Pope Pius XII, who according to the authors was not aware of the text before the death of his predecessor,[52] chose not to publish this encyclical" seems innocent of the debate about E. Pacelli's role at this point. "Following Vatican custom" loads the sentence to one side of the debate. Pope Pius XII could have done anything he liked with the encyclical; his choice was to use parts of the theme in his first encyclical. I would like to remove the opening clause and reword the rest of the article to be less of a brief for Pius XII carrying on Pius XI's ideals. The long quote in the previous section indicates that the differences between the two popes on dealing with Nazi racism were significant.JWorkman 15:06, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  The unpublished final encyclical 

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thread_title: Move discussion in progress

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: thumb|right|Pius XI on his deathbed.
I have removed this image. It is NOT Pope Pius XI on his death bed. It is Pope Pius XII - taken in the bedroom of Castel Gandolfo on his death bed in 1958. I know the image and have used it elsewhere. I am 100% sure of it. If you look closely you can see it looks nothing like Pius XI. Pius XI had a short round face. Pius XII had a long thin face. That is definitely Pius XII. Nor does the bed of the pope in the papal apartment look like that. That is the bedroom in Castel Gandolfo. 
213.233.148.22 (talk) 01:35, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't speak to the location, and I don't think it's necessary to restore the image, but I believe you're mistaken about the identification. It's one of the many photos that a French user scanned & uploaded from the February 1939 issue of L'Illustration magazine that covered the death of Pope Pius XI, all posted at :Commons:Category:L'Illustration, 1939. I don't suppose you can cite a published source for the photo in 1958? —173.68.139.31 (talk) 05:11, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed image: wrong pope 

message: Some believe he was murdered, based on the fact that his primary physician was Dr. Francesco Petacci, father of Claretta Petacci... 
:Sounds as though there ought to be a wiki page on him. Valetude (talk) 22:51, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: ...in any case, the statement needs more explanation. Valetude (talk) 22:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pope's doctor 

message: Jesus Christ is the founder and head of the Catholic Church (not the Pope.) WiseGalNY (talk) 16:53, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pope does not Head Catholic Church