Talk:List of association footballers who died after on-field incidents

message: I can't find JOHN WHITE (1937 - 1964), the Spurs star who was struck by lightning while sheltering under a tree on a golf course during a storm.
??  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.36.130.231 (talk) 04:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Haven't You Missed One?

message: I know there's controversy over his exact cause of death, but he was still an active player when he died, so I'm sure he should be on here--2A00:23C4:8D48:1:C1CD:685F:6DD9:F562 (talk) 15:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Matthias Sindelar

message: Could we not keep this article as, although there is a category which covers deaths, it does not provide the details or deaths of said players GiantSnowman 11:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it's also very lacking in numbers. this article right now is so I'm complete, it should be unpublished till there is a rewrite to add more than just the people. Tecardo (talk) 08:58, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion 

message: The players listed can be incoporated under the relevant headings, right? Cristiano Junior already is. I'm not sure why they're listed separately. - Dudesleeper ·  Talk 19:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: See also

message: Footballers who died while playing → List of footballers who died while playing — For the simple reason that this is more of a list that an standalone article —Willirennen 13:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support Or a similar title with "List of..." -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: *Not really. Americans always call people who play American football "football players", never "footballers". Dekimasuよ! 14:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support Or a similar title with "List of..." -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Not really. Americans always call people who play American football "football players", never "footballers". Dekimasuよ! 14:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: I propose that we remove all players who lack a reference which indicated that they actually died while playing - people's thoughts? If there is no reply in the next few days I shall be bold and go ahead and remove said players. GiantSnowman (talk) 00:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referencing 

message: This article should be renamed to "Football Related Deaths" because almost all of these did NOT die on the pitch. For example, Antonio Puerta, Marc Vivian Foe and Fehér all died in hospital, not on the pitch. This should be addressed and updated. (DipSetGeezer (talk) 11:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd disagree, the title is fine as it IS a list of player who died while on the pitch. GiantSnowman 12:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't matter WHERE they died, but HOW they died - due to injuries sustained while playing. GiantSnowman 10:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football related Death 

message: Most soccer players who died during a game were seemingly really weak (no offense to them or their families) or had bad hearts. I mean, they get hit with the ball and it eventually turns into an infection? How the hell is that even possible?
Not to mention most of these deaths were heart-related. They should have had doctor clearance before playing. I'm sure other leagues around the world do it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.19.3 (talk) 06:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: FIFA, the governing board of football, has started to introduce heart testing I think, especially for young players. GiantSnowman 09:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it me or... 

message: Thought I'd bring him up, as he is a borderline case.  He was paralyzed from the neck down after ramming his head into another player (Landon Donovan, actually) in a challenge in a youth match between Trinidad and Tobago and the USA.  He died about a year later, apparently from complications of his paralysis (stopped breathing). 174.111.116.162 (talk) 00:58, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marvin Lee 

message: The reason for the move just done on this article was "While there are at least six other competitions called football, this is the only one which refers to them as footballers. Every other one is football players." 
Sorry. Wrong.
I don't even feel like explaining, Why should I? the person who performed this move did not discuss or suggest it here, and is clearly not interested in facts. But just in case some readers are, players of all four codes of football played professionally in Australia are know as footballers.
It MUST be moved back. 
I'll give this 24 hours (unlike the original mover, who allowed NO discussion), then move it back, unless convinced otherwise.
HiLo48 (talk) 11:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the move was clearly wrong, I have reverted it. If the editor wishes, I'm happy to discuss here. LunarLander // talk // 16:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur. there has been a lot of movement recently, particularly in categories but also in other spheres, in regards to clarifying footballers on the basis that "footballer" alone means different things in different places. Notwithstanding guidelines that say use the short version where no confusion exists, there can be confusion in this instance and "association footballers" precisely confines the content to what is intended by this page.--ClubOranjeT 00:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arrogant move based on ignorance 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Does Ricky Yacobi belong on this list. He was a retired footballer from Indonesia who sadley died yesterday after suffering a heart attack while playing football with several former national team players and journalists. Since it was not a professional game I did not know if the article qualified to be in the list. Inter&anthro (talk) 23:32, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say include him. GiantSnowman 08:24, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Ricky Yacobi?

message: Add this line:
Name: Miklos Feher
Nationality: Hungary
Age: 24
Club: Benfica
Club nation: Portugal
Cause of death: Heart Attack https://www.abc.net.au/news/2004-04-14/autopsy-confirms-striker-died-of-natural-causes/170630 MatthewDooley6 (talk) 21:39, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Feher is there already. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 22:56, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2021 

message: Just noting several players: 1. Didn't die in game. 2. Didn't die due to the game itself, or injuries thereof. 3. There has been an increase in instances (even if only an instance of reported instances) of collapses in training or similar outside of the game - but related. Is this strictly professional or amateurs included (which can cause obvious increase in numbers and speculation etc). We should also almost certainly link to Sudden cardiac death of athletes. Koncorde (talk) 13:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should list be renamed to "during their careers" to match parent article [[Sportspeople who died during their careers]] 

message: this article is clearly lacking right now in every possible way. I would suggest unpublishing it, till the data is more complete or there is a paragraph added for additional numbers found. Tecardo (talk) 09:03, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  deletion of this article cause of incompletnes 

message: Compare this page to 2020 and there are a number of additions in years prior to 2021 to include amateur / training related deaths. Why did this occur? Because
recent news articles have linked 2021 deaths of sports athletes to this page suggesting they are the result of vaccine injury. So Pfizer has in all likelihood
hired PR representatives to bump up the deaths of previous years. Now the quality of the article is low Pfizer will probably ask it to be scrapped entirely.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.199.227.97 (talk) 23:56, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Pretty wild conspiracy, that. 82.132.219.201 (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

text: Now look at the list of 2021 deaths. Their notability is also comparably low. The addition to previous years is to keep up the same standards that were set by hysterical media in 2021. 93.103.223.236 (talk) 13:15, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consider who will be editing this 

message: As the article clearly states: "The following is an incomplete list of association footballers who died while playing". With the incomplete in mind, it is meaningless to present a bar chart which reflects little more than the relative levels of archiving for each year. The FIFA Sudden Death Report suggests that during 2014-2018 there were typically 150 deaths per year, while the chart shows an average circa 10 in these years; the maximum shown on this bar chart is 21 in 2021. I propose to remove this bar chart, as the apparent spike in 2021 is clearly a function mainly of reporting, and not necessarily actual numbers of deaths. Yadsalohcin (talk) 22:40, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No complaints here; was a very odd inclusion. Seasider53 (talk) 11:43, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to remove bar chart

message: See title. Seasider53 (talk) 15:44, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was the page move discussed? 

message: "associaton" should probably be association...
Not sure how to change that though. 76.67.177.112 (talk) 02:52, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo in page title 

message: Something for those with access to better sources to look up. I lately read that a post WWII Army Cup Final took place in presence of King Geoge VI (so pre 1952) at which a thunderbolt killed two of the players on the field. I read of this in a Shrewsbury Town-related book Meadow Meastros & Misfits, that one of the surviving players joined Town after release from the army but intriguingly it omits the date of that cup final.Cloptonson (talk) 06:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Deaths during British Army Cup Final

message: Should there be separate pages for deaths associated with playing on the pitch itself rather than incidental deaths like car accidents?  It's getting somewhat unwieldy at the moment.  In Vitrio (talk) 14:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. --Mishary94 (talk) 00:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Separate pages?

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus that the current title is inaccurate, as the scope is narrower than "players who died during their careers".
No clear consensus on where to move the article to, but the option with the most support appears to be List of association footballers who died after on-field incidents and so per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS I am moving this there.
Editors who disagree with that title should feel free to open a new move request at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 09:04, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: List of association football players who died during their careers →  – This list was moved without discussion on 7 January 2023. However, the result of discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of association footballers who died during their careers (a very similar title) was that such overarching lists violate WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:NLIST. I request that this list be moved back to the previous title. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: So does that explicitly exclude someone who suffers a fatal injury during a game and then dies a week later? HiLo48 (talk) 02:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , of course not. But it excludes players who e.g. die of cancer or in a car crash whilst still having an active career.o GiantSnowman 19:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: So it's NOT specifically about footballers who died whilst actually playing? They can die later? How much later? Who decides? HiLo48 (talk) 02:33, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is directly related to an on-pitch incident and confirmed as such in reliable sources, then they will be included. This is not unlike counting people who incur severe injuries during a vehicle, train, or aircraft accident, or even during natural disasters, but die several days later amongst the fatalities. The concept really should not be that difficult to comprehend. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 04:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody doesn't have to die on a battlefield to have died in a war; there was a 97th victim of the Hillsborough disaster who died 32 years after the event; these people who died in hospital 12 days after the event are still said to have died in the helicopter crash. There is no difference whether a player who collapses on the pitch dies on the pitch, at the sidelines, on the way to hospital, or at hospital. This is basic logic and your lame attempt to argument otherwise is one of the weakest I have ever seen. GiantSnowman 20:25, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Please drop the insults. While what is now being written is quite clear, some of the earlier comments were very unclear. I am pleased with where this discussion has gone. But we still need to be careful with the name of the article. Perhaps "Players who died because of incidents while playing". HiLo48 (talk) 02:50, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No insults, and that is a far clunkier name. GiantSnowman 11:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No insults? I'm trying to work out how "This is basic logic and your lame attempt to argument otherwise is one of the weakest I have ever seen" is a compliment. HiLo48 (talk) 03:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

text: I suggested List of association footballers who died after on-field incidents previously. This would also cover players who died during training, not just during matches. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 16:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be OK with that. GiantSnowman 22:05, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Relisting comment: A consensus is yet to form; relisting. Reading Beans 06:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Football has been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans 06:33, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Death has been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans 06:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Lists has been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans 06:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 3 January 2024 

message: OK. We now have a closed discussion, and a unilateral move to a different, undiscussed name, about people who "died after on-field incidents". The list includes a lot of people described as having died after something happened during training. That is not generally understood as being on-field. It could have been anywhere! On a training run. In a swimming pool. In a gym.... And what do we do with someone described as having "Died after suffering a headache following a game"? HiLo48 (talk) 23:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Relax. First, this was NOT a unilateral move; this was a move after discussion, albeit with light participation, and your participation pretty much amounted to "I don't like it." If you wish for the article to be titled something else, you may begin another RM discussion. Second, what leads you to believe that other editors are not working behind the scenes to bring the scope of the list in line with the title? Editing is a process and is not instantaneous. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 23:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The new name was NOT the proposed name in the discussion above! Insulting me is not going to convince me I don't have a point. I see no evidence that other editors are working behind the scenes to bring the scope of the list in line with the title. Even if they are, it doesn't address my question about training incidents. HiLo48 (talk) 03:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It may not have been the initially proposed name, but after you said "No" a number of times to other names I proposed, two other editors agreed with the last name I proposed. Again, NOT unilateral. Any on-field incident, whether during a match or during training, resulting in the death of a notable footballer is eligible for inclusion. If the incident did not occur on-field, e.g. in a swimming pool, then it is not eligible. If you were insulted by me pointing out facts of the discussion, then I can't do anything about that. WP:ANI is over there if you truly feel that strongly about it. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 16:41, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name. STILL!!!! 

message: Should this list really include clearly non-notable players, like the tonnes of British players who were playing in local league matches, and the lots of players who were playing for teams that are so local that they aren't notable for a team article? Listing them here looks like it violates WP:NOTMEMORIAL for anyone who wasn't a notable person prior to their death. I would support the removal of all clearly non-notable players i.e. where they don't have an article and they don't demonstrate that they could meet WP:GNG and thus have an article created and kept under the current Wikipedia guidelines. Thoughts? Joseph2302 (talk) 14:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we would have to determine first up to which league level should be included. Definitely should be national-level championships at the very minimum. Borgenland (talk) 14:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Maybe not so much non-notable players - after all an early death either a) might stop them from being notable or b) would make them notable of itself - but those who played for, or against, clubs which do not have a wikipedia entry?  To be frank I'm in favour of continued inclusion, given that instances are (thankfully) rare enough to warrant notifying. In Vitrio (talk) 20:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of non-notable players