Talk:Ángel Hernández (umpire)

message: "He ejected an organist in 1988 at a minor league game for playing the "Mickey Mouse Club" theme song.[5]"
According to the source given, Hernandez did not eject anyone this game.  Can someone either take this comment out or reword it better?ADman 19:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: False Report

message: I've added a citation request, but I think there's grounds for deletion. The tone of the comment seems pretty subjective. Jprg1966 (talk) 04:03, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: On moving to Gerry Davis's crew

message: On May 8th, 2013 Hernandez blew a homerun call hit by Oakland A's second baseman Adam Rosales, which would have tied the game in the ninth inning.  Despite a video review held by the umpire crew, Hernandez still ruled the apparent game-tying homerun a double.  Withers, Associated Press 
2601:A:600:6B:C4BB:6195:2806:7A04 (talk) 02:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Done (mostly). I added this to the controversies section of the article, but rewrote it with more neutral language. --ElHef (Meep?) 03:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

text: Do it. I love getting people blocked for vandalism. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 17:33, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's calm down and take a step back, folks. Collector: edits like that are precisely what got the article protected - not constructive or helpful, even in jest. AutomaticStrikeout: Taunting another user is WP:Uncivil and unnecessary. How about everyone take a breath, focus on the content, and move on, okay? --ElHef (Meep?) 19:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies. I was a little annoyed after having read too many garbage blog posts on the matter. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 20:33, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

text: If you've got a reliable source, go ahead and make the edit. I agree with avoiding weasel words, within the limits of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR - last night when I answered the edit request, the source given just called it controversial and there had been no statements from MLB as yet. (I would look at the article you cited but I'm on a crappy computer at work and it won't load that page through all the popups.) --ElHef (Meep?) 20:31, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Neutral language is how we are supposed to operate. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 20:34, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 9 May 2013 

message: The controversies section is longer than the rest of the article. That's not a good sign. I wonder about the importance of some of the anecdotes, like those of Mariano Duncan and Julio Lugo, and yesterday's blown call as well. All umpires miss calls. We can't just list every single one. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The undue weight problem is the media's fault. The writers love to jump all over any ump who blows a call and so that's where most ump-related "coverage" comes from. However, Hernandez is one of the most controversial umpires in baseball and I'm not so sure it is undue weight here. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 17:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I know of his controversial nature, and that does indeed need to be included. The surveys that identify him as a "bad" umpire need to be kept. But is his ejecting Carlos Pena one time really relevant? The fact that he was moved from one crew to another? Maybe that is important, but the page doesn't say why it is. The May 8 blown call at this point seems like just any other blown call, so why the rush to add it? As for it being the "media's fault", it would help if we could add more on his early life, personal life, things like that, to balance this out. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's part of the problem. The media prefers to focus only on blown calls and controversies. As an aside, the May 8 call is very much notable. A blown call even after replay is very rare. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 19:40, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support removal of any or all of Pena, the crew change, Duncan, and maybe Lugo. Pena and Duncan seem like routine non-notable ejections, and I don't get the crew change addition at all. I might keep Lugo in there because of the multiple issues between them and the apparent singling out of a player, but I wouldn't object too hard to that being removed as well. I agree with AutomaticStrikeout about the May 8th call - getting the call wrong even after replay and then having an umpiring decision called out by MLB is a pretty big deal. As to possible additions, I found this, which is pretty thin. Beyond that, AutomaticStrikeout is right - with a reputation like this guy has, good luck finding any coverage of anything but blown calls in the media. (Also, apparently the undue tag got removed and if anything that section's getting bigger. I replaced the tag.) --ElHef (Meep?) 04:24, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue weight 

message: Not sure why we are cherry picking polls where he ranked lowly and not other years? AIRcorn (talk) 08:08, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think those polls were cherry picked. I suspect Hernandez has always been ranked low and I can absolutely guarantee you that he has never been ranked favorably. Lepricavark (talk) 11:08, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Lepricavark. These are the polls that are discoverable. If Air has RS references to other polls, he should include them, but I haven't seen them.--2604:2000:E016:A700:2410:F617:C3D4:B71B (talk) 16:54, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the responsibility of the editors adding information (especially negative information to a WP:BLP) to justify its inclusion. Suspecting something or requiring another editor to balance out this information doesn't really cut it. It is not presented very neutrally either, third worst is meaningless without numbers (what if there are only three in a poll). Also this highlights the problem of using polls as sources. What is really needed are secondary sources. FWIW the sports illustrated link does not workso a new one will at the very least need to be found. Also another source is an opinion piece and two others are referenced to papers that do not contain sufficient information to be verifiable (page number or at least a heading). All in all this is poorly sourced and undue. AIRcorn (talk) 23:27, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been following MLB umpires for years. Ángel Hernández is one of the most widely disliked and criticized by fans, players, and media alike. We've already trimmed a lot of negative content from this article, but the reality is that we need to have some content that is unfavorable to the subject simply because that is how the sources that exist tend to treat this subject. As far as the polls are concerned, third-worst is meaningful considering that Hernández was one out of roughly 68 umpires on the full-time staff at the time those polls were taken. The content is phrased in as neutral a manner as I can conceive under the circumstances. I've spent a fair amount of energy on combating anti-umpire bias on our umpiring articles, but we do have to accurately represent what the sources say about Hernández. Lepricavark (talk) 00:54, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Lepricavark's above points. The number of RS-reported negative statements by players, etc., with regard to his ability is notable and beyond question unusual. If anything, as to the Kinsler dispute for example, which has led to a number of articles just by itself, this wp article downplays the RS level of coverage of Kinsler's criticism of the umpire. The RS articles have much more coverage, and there are a number of them.2604:2000:E016:A700:5432:F90:C980:766D (talk) 17:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not opposed to negative content, I just want to make sure this article accurately reflects a 25 year career umpiring at a high level. The very fact that he has made it at this level for so long must mean he is a decent umpire. The problem is that media don't really comment on umpires unless the make a mistake, but we need to be better than that. We are in fact required to per WP:BALASP. Individual incidents that don't have any lasting impact (e.g.. affect his career in some way) are better mentioned at articles on the game or series itself, not in a WP:BLP article. As to the polls I am not trying to remove them, I am just trying to find some balance to present this information. At the moment it reads like the polls are cherry picked to make him look bad. AIRcorn (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: We usually don't have articles on individual games or series, so we can't put content in such articles. The polls don't appear cherry picked to me at all. Please understand that I strongly loathe the media's tendency to only write negative articles about umpires, but our hands are tied in that regard. It's our responsibility to represent the sources, not to be better than them. I sympathize with your desire to accurately reflect a 25 year career at the highest level of pro baseball, but you'll be looking for a needle in a haystack trying to find favorable coverage. The media doesn't like umps and it especially doesn't like Hernandez. Lepricavark (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe our hands are tied. As an encyclopedia our goals are different than those of a sports column journalist and I feel the BLP policy help us in this regard. As for series I was thinking of something like the articles in . In my experience from watching umpire/referee articles people (including the media) tend to get more emotional about calls that don't go their way in major games and there is usually a better article here to go into this detail. To be fair the polls don't have anywhere else to go except here, so this is a bit tangential. Also I meant to acknowledge your contributions in this area a few posts ago. I only recently realised you were Automatic Strikeout in another life, so I appreciate your dedication to this often neglected area. I will look for some more information to balance out the polls when I get some spare time (this has some proper biographical material in it). I don't think we are terribly far apart in what we are trying to achieve here. AIRcorn (talk) 08:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the kind words. I agree that we probably aren't far apart in our goals for umpire articles and I apologize if I've come across as hostile or unpleasant in any way. You do make a good point about fans being more emotional about questionable calls in major games. Lepricavark (talk) 00:49, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

text: It is notable because it is very rare for an umpire to take a player/coach/manager's equipment and throw it into the stands. Very rare and very unusual. And I believe every single MLB.com article has that disclaimer. Lepricavark (talk) 00:54, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case it should be apparent in sources. So far we have two sources from a Dodgers website written by a Dodgers reporter days after the incident. Is there any evidence of lasting impact from this? AIRcorn (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm strongly opposed to the intrusion of such a standard in umpiring articles. If we play the lasting impact game, are we going to have anything left? How, for instance, was there any lasting impact in Hernandez being at third base for a no-hitter? There wasn't, but we include that content in part to try to balance out the negative content and in part because there's no benefit in stripping it down to a barebones article. It's challenging to find content for umpire articles and sometimes we have to bend the not-so-hard-and-fast rules a little bit. Lepricavark (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I met resistance to this before and started a discussion at the Baseball wikiproject (I never got around to the RFC, but maybe it could be revisited). Other editors mentioned lasting impact, which in some ways was stricter than what I was thinking. The editor I was having the initial disagreement with seemed to support the presence of non-local coverage, which I feel is probably the minimum. I have looked  but am struggling to find more sources. Maybe one of these two  (although they are still pretty local). I think the way the information is presented presently is very neutral and don't have strong objections to it. I just noticed the sourcing was quite weak (plus being in the controversy section along with other incidents didn't help). AIRcorn (talk) 08:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  undue 

message: Why is this notable. Ejections are pretty common so why does this one warrant a mention? The info is buried deep in the sources and don't say what makes this particularly unusual. There is also no mention of this incident at Mariano Duncans page. If anything Duncan comes across as the arse . There is no evidence of any lasting impact given, just two dodgy (no pun intended) sources from Dodgers.com with the disclaimer  AIRcorn (talk) 23:45, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It is notable because it is very rare for an umpire to take a player/coach/manager's equipment and throw it into the stands. Very rare and very unusual. And I believe every single MLB.com article has that disclaimer. Lepricavark (talk) 00:54, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case it should be apparent in sources. So far we have two sources from a Dodgers website written by a Dodgers reporter days after the incident. Is there any evidence of lasting impact from this? AIRcorn (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm strongly opposed to the intrusion of such a standard in umpiring articles. If we play the lasting impact game, are we going to have anything left? How, for instance, was there any lasting impact in Hernandez being at third base for a no-hitter? There wasn't, but we include that content in part to try to balance out the negative content and in part because there's no benefit in stripping it down to a barebones article. It's challenging to find content for umpire articles and sometimes we have to bend the not-so-hard-and-fast rules a little bit. Lepricavark (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I met resistance to this before and started a discussion at the Baseball wikiproject (I never got around to the RFC, but maybe it could be revisited). Other editors mentioned lasting impact, which in some ways was stricter than what I was thinking. The editor I was having the initial disagreement with seemed to support the presence of non-local coverage, which I feel is probably the minimum. I have looked  but am struggling to find more sources. Maybe one of these two  (although they are still pretty local). I think the way the information is presented presently is very neutral and don't have strong objections to it. I just noticed the sourcing was quite weak (plus being in the controversy section along with other incidents didn't help). AIRcorn (talk) 08:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Mariano Duncan

message: I can find no evidence he was fired. The source provided has no evidence. 2604:3D09:A07E:8AA0:470:93B5:198F:3A (talk) 07:52, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The source provided cites 2 articles a NY Post article (https://nypost.com/2023/08/15/controversial-umpire-angel-hernandez-loses-major-league-baseball-lawsuit-appeal/) and an ESPN article (https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/34497311/mlb-argues-umpire-angel-hernandez-3-overturned-calls-2018-alds-cost-world-series-spot) both of which were written in August and neither one states he was fired. Psmells91 (talk) 10:19, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

text: Agreed. The source cited looks like a GPT-generated article that does not cite any real sources. MrSalta (talk) 23:21, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Released? 

message: Please revert the page back to the edit below (1171751417), since no valid source has said anything about Angel being fired (all places I found that said it are satirical places like the mlbonfax social media account).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ángel_Hernández_(umpire)&oldid=1171751417 131.247.224.201 (talk) 00:34, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert request