Talk:Florida Atlantic University/Archive 1

message: In case anybody was wondering: There was a recent change to the main textbox from "state university" to "public research university" (there was a revert attempt by a heavy FIU contributor who also changed the stadium to errant information). I looked into the links and FAU is undoubtedly a "public research university" -- there are multiple sources (notably from FAU) to substantiate that claim.
On FAU's "Explore FAU" page:
"FAU is earning a reputation as a top research institution in areas ranging from biomedicine and biotechnology to ocean engineering and coastline security."
On the Princeton Review website for FAU:
"Florida Atlantic University is a public research university with multiple campuses..." 
 
For the Fairfield Inn Suites that serves FAU:
"Florida Atlantic University is a public research university with multiple campuses along the southeast Florida coast serving a uniquely diverse community."
 
And the most compelling evidence, on FAU's "History" page
:
In recognition of the University's research funding and doctoral programs, the Division of Colleges and Universities of the Florida Board of Education has designated FAU as a research university. Additionally, FAU has been classified as a "Research University - High Research Activity" by Carnegie.
It's in the mission statement. These cannot be ignored. FAU may not yet be one of the "big dogs" in Florida but to say that a university is "not enough of a research university" is an interpretation that does not negate the forementioned facts. So I support the change. Go Owls 04:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research University 

message: I've notice there seems to be an editing war between Interestingstuffadder and KnightLago.  I feel any discussion about deleting/adding the nickname should be discussed on the article's talk page.  I feel both of you have good reasons to include/exclude the nickname, but I also feel that neither of you has the ultimate authority deciding if it stays or goes.  In that case I propose that we have a discussion and see what other users think is an appropriate outcome.  I propose that the nickname stay but with an explanation that it is seen as negative by some students/faculty/etc.  Any other suggestions?  Evill72 13:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the proposed compromise. Interestingstuffadder 13:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Sounds fine, I think we should open it up and see what the general consensus is KnightLago 21:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It should not be included. It is a slang nickname and the evidence to back it up is an article citing "some students". This is not encyclopedic material. Many schools have derisive nicknames given to them (usually by students at other schools) which are not even considered for inclusion in their article.-- 23:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If you bothered to read wikipedia guidelines, you would find that opinions are completely fine if attributed to some source. Here, the opinion is attributed to a well known columnist in Florida's most widely circulated and arguably best respected newspaper. This columnist himself is among florida's best respected political columnists. what a prospective student might think about FAU is not a valid wikipedia justification for anything. If you have positive information to add that can be properly referenced to a verifiable source, please go ahead and add it. It is not my job to find that information for you. Wikipedia is not a viewbook. Interestingstuffadder 22:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: A little googling shows that a number of FAU students have posted this little back-derivation on blogs and school review sites. It can be verified to be in use. It's a minor point, but we don't remove facts just because someone doesn't like them. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 17:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, if you are looking for balance, feel free to post a postive opinion about FAU that is attributed to a notable source and is verifiable. Eg, does FAU have a program that is highly ranked by a well known national or regional ranking? Did a president of the united states refer to FAU as "the future of american higher education"? etc? etc? However, the fand another university bit is notable and verifiable and thus meets wikipedia inclusion standards, whether or not you find it offensive. Interestingstuffadder 17:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I have no idea what the next step is. At the same time, I have not seen evidence that there are so many nicknames that, like this one, meet the wikipedia standards for inclusion (notability & verifiability). I also see no evidence on this or other university pages that your fear of wikipedia being cluttered with these nicknames (assuming that many are as notable / verifiable of this one) has actually come to pass. The present situation seems to me to be that users are attempting to get this deleted because it offends them personally (POV) despite the fact that it meets wikipedia criteria for inclusion. Interestingstuffadder 20:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with you that a false acronym is POV. But wikipedia policy does not prohibit all POV statements. POV content attributed to notable, verifiable sources (and thus acknowledged as POV) are legitimately includable in articles. The fact of the matter is that many opinions and much properly attributed POV is encyclopedic. As I've said many times, I would have no problem whatsoever with you adding POV content positive toward FAU to this article, so ling as it is attributed to a notable, verifiable source. Interestingstuffadder 01:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no wikipedia policy saying the nicknames article is the be all end all. This nickname is notable and verifiable (as demonstrated) with regard to FAU. As for the blog/myspace cites, although they alone are not sufficient to support this assertion (and they do not need to be because we also have cites that are sufficient), their inclusion is merited as secondary cites to reinforce the widespread usage of this expression. Interestingstuffadder 06:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I did give a reason for the reversion in the edit summary. We have been discussing this item here for a few days now, and it was bad form to arbitrarily delete the item when the trend here was towards a consensus to keep. I know of no policy or guideline that calls for nicknames to be kept out of articles on a subject, and nicknames are commonly added to articles about places (look at all the articles on big cities). And this nickname is better documented than the nicknames that have been added to a lot of other articles. I might add that the motive stated by other editors for removing this nickname has been that it disparages the university. That is a POV position. We don't remove information from an article just because it is negative. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 10:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Why can't you understand what I have said numerous times -- opinions are fine on wikipedia so long as they are attributed to a notable source and such source is verifiable. The three decent references here provide the needed reference. What is impermissable POV is your crusade to protect the reputation of the univeristy by excluding notable and verifiable information. Interestingstuffadder 15:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Consensus. Although it seems difficult to argue that a well respected columnist in Florida's top newspaper, a mention in FAU's own student newspaper, and a mention in another university'[s newspaper (all of which have been provided as sources) are not notable, especially when taken in aggregate. Interestingstuffadder 15:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: First, unclear what the univeristy handbook not including this has to do with anything, why would it include a widely known negative nickname. As for the North Korea example, if in fact there were legitimate sources evidencing a widely held (though false) belief that the North Korean people are evil, the fact that this widely held belief exists would absolutely be includable in a wikipedia article on North Korea, per guidelines. Wikipedia policy, whether you agree with it or not, is based on the simple fact that sometimes opinions are notable. For example, see New Deal, especially toward the end in which the opinions of notable economists are discussed. Would you really argue that the different sides of the debate over the legacy of the New Deal should not be presented in an encyclopedia article simply because this debate consiste of opinions? In reality, any encyclopedia would include these opinions because they are a notable part of the discussion of the subject matter. Although out debate deals with less weighty issues, the basic idea of the same. A complete discussion of FAU does include positive and negative opinions (negative opinions as evidenced by the nickname) held about it. I personally have a high opinion of FAU, but no institution is perfect or has a perfect reputation -- this is why wikipedia must strive for a balanced approach that includes the good and the bad. Interestingstuffadder 16:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And by the way, you may be an "alumnus" or an "alumna" of FAU, but unless you are multiple people (which you could be, somehow a little sockpuppetry doesn't seem unimaginable) you are not "an alumni" of the university. In fact, even if you are multiple people and "alumni" is the correct tense to use, you should work on your subject-verb agreement. Just a thought. Interestingstuffadder 02:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You obviously haven't read wikipedia's policy regarding neutral point of view. The standard for inclusion is notability and verifiability, which has been met here. That is, the standard is not whether the information added is negative or positive.  I encourage you to find mor positive notable and verifiable information -- there is already a lot here. All I am striving for is balance, by including a bit of widely known trivia about the university. Interestingstuffadder 02:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you canfind a source for that nickname, feel free to add it to FSU's page. Interestingstuffadder 12:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Please note the long discussion, which reached a compromise.  Please do not ignore all of this. What appears on any other article has nothing to do with this one. And I don't think some random blogger is anywhere near as good a source as one of Florida's leading political writers, which is the source provided here. Interestingstuffadder 13:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Find Another University discussion 

message: Does anyone have photos that they might want to add? KnightLago 12:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those photos are almost certainly under copyright, and we can't use them unless a fair use justification can be made. -- Donald Albury 13:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: Does anyone know how to add the university's gps coordinates to the top of the page like other schools? See Duke University. Thanks KnightLago 16:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GPS Coordinates

message: I am in the process of doing a major revision of this article. I hope to get the article to WP:GA status or maybe someday even WP:FA status. The article I am working on is at my userspace  here, under the FAU section. Anyone wishing to participate is welcome. I chose to put it on my userspace so I could work at my own pace and make major edits at the same time. Again, anyone is welcome to help. Also, if anyone has a problem with this please let me know so we can discuss it. Thanks. KnightLago 00:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Revision

message: Looks like someone accidentally removed some text and informed the world he/she wanted to go there. Reverted back to before their changes.
Also - regarding the misc. [] do we need to details of the PD thing? Could we leave it at the first line. 'The FAU police department has had four sex-related investigations and six police chiefs and upper-command staff resign in the past three years.' What do you think? 131.91.220.27 21:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert 11.08.06

message: I created a campus life section and kicked it off with information on Greek Life. I plan on expanding this and encourage everyone else too as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jamais vu (talk • contribs) 03:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember that all material added to Wikipedia must be verifiable from reliable sources (no original research). -- Donald Albury 00:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Campus Life 

message: There is a line in the main FAU summary noting that FAU is "predominantly a commuter school".
While I don't necessarily disagree, I'm having trouble finding a concrete line for when a school is a commuter school versus when it isn't... the line seems fairly arbitrary. Wikipedia does not have a page on it, likely for this very reason. 
Since FAU is growing at such a tremendous rate, it seems only fair to come to a consensus on when the title of "commuter school" would no longer apply since it is damaging to FAU's ability to attract students seeking a "traditional university". Although Wikipedia is not to be used for marketing purposes, it IS to be used for reporting truth.
Now, intuition provides that a "commuter" title be given to a school that has mostly -- if not all -- students who live off-campus. However, UCF has only 2% more total students living on campus (FAU, 8%, 'commuter' in summary; UCF, 10%, no mention of 'commuter' in summary) yet is not considered "predominantly commuter".
I don't wish to classify UCF as predominantly commuter -- I think all students from the Florida universities should get along -- so I would propose that "commuter school" be reserved for a university without student housing or resident population under 1,000 people. 
Thoughts? Go Owls 19:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can find plenty of sites on the web that refer to FAU as a 'commuter school': , , , ,  and , for example. It's not for us to define what is a 'commuter school', but to just report what others have said. -- Donald Albury 00:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I see nothing wrong with the wording Go Owls has offered. I think anyone using Wikipedia as a guide to enroll would also look at "commuter school" as a negative tick, and is a good segue into the image change FAU is working on.CptnSkippy 21:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see something wrong. FAU is a commuter school right now. It has that reputation because it is. It is even reported in the press as such. Not the National Enquirer, but the mainstream media. Adding something like several people.... just makes the sentence sound bad. If multiple published accounts call it a commuter school, then it is. And that shouldn't be diluted as you are trying to do. KnightLago 23:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some may find it odd that I am saying this, since I have been characterized as an FAU-basher on this talk page in the past (see the "find another university" discussion), but I think that adding something like "some sources consider FAU to be a commuter school, although there is no clear definition of what constitutes a commuter school" (or whatever consensus arrives at) makes sense. This term clearly (per evidence offered in this discussion) has no clear objective meaning. Moreover, FAU is a school that is rapidly becoming more residential in character. As such, there is a legitimate disagreement over whether FAU is still a commuter school (it indisputably once was one, though,and not very long ago ... the school's evolution could even be mentioned in the compromise language, as this evolution seems like a very notable fact about the school). Given this legitimate disagreement and the difficulty of defining "commuter school", qualifying language makes sense here. Interestingstuffadder 02:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: But to imply that it is a commuter school sounds to me like they don't offer any housing at all. The Boca campus houses 2400+ students right now, and when the newest dorm opens will top over 3000. Perhaps it could be word smithed like ISA stated to include the evolution so it doesn't sound "bad"131.91.212.151 20:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You seem to not like Wikipedia's verifiability policy (where it says, "verifiability, not truth"). The simple fact is that there are published reliable sources that describe FAU as a commuter school. If you want to tone that down or remove it, you need to find published reliable sources that say that FAU is not a commuter school. Your opinion and/or analysis don't count. What counts is what published sources say. That's our policy. -- Donald Albury 00:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting policy. You are correct in your assessment -- my personal feeling is that an encyclopedia should value "verifiability" AND "truth", because otherwise the encyclopedia is no more than a glorified gossip magazine. In essence, fifty people said FAU is a commuter school, here are the links, so FAU is a commuter school. Easy. I'm curious -- to defend the notion of "FAU is a commuter school", you've posted a link saying "Business student characteristics: commuter". It does NOT say "FAU is a commuter school". Take a look. And look again. It's not there. That's an INTERPRETATION of what it says. The connection between what is written on that site and what is written on this site is fact an analysis of that link and you have just stated that Wikipedia is not interested in [our] analysis. Care to explain why the link is valid and supports the argument? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Go Owls (talk • contribs) 23:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find this argument problematic. As a resident of the Boca area, I can attest that the perception of FAU as a "commuter school" is widely held. We can back up this perception with multiple sources. Although I am all for including language eg "some say" or (if we can find a source for it) a discussion of how FAU has become less of a commuter school, one can hardly say that the assertion that FAU is a commuter school lacks some "truth". Interestingstuffadder 14:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Interestingstuffadder. My comment above was related to the link posted next to "commuter school" in the main summary. The link, as I pointed out, does not say in any terms that FAU is or isn't a "commuter school" but only that the site lists the business student characteristic as "commuter". It's in regard to Business students, not all students. You see that, right? To extrapolate that to justify the idea of FAU as a commuter school is an interpretation and thus analysis of what it says, not a replication of what it says. Since Donald has informed us that Wikipedia policy is not interested in original research or analysis (saying something is "predominantly" commuter sounds like analysis to me... where is the link that says "predominantly commuter school?") it is therefore inappropriate to support that statement. If you can find a link that says quite clearly: "FAU is a commuter school" or "FAU, the commuter school", I would support it. So the point is to correct the link. I'm aware that you can find multiple sources calling FAU a "commuter school", that your own personal experience provides anecdotes of people calling it a "commuter school", and as I mentioned before I don't disagree with this (because obviously the various sources are there). I actually brought up the issue with a number of individuals and they had never thought about why it was even applied anymore. I did disagree with the usage based on concept (as I argued before and you agreed that there are no functional parameters for it), especially since I've verified that, for instance, UF, UCF, and FSU all have "predominantly-commuter" student populations. It makes sense, of course; schools with 20-50k+ students cannot and arguably should not have on-campus housing for all of those students. So my argument was always that either we should note all of these schools as "predominantly-commuter" or we should say to ourselves, "Well, the fact that universites are predominantly-commuter is common sense and therefore we don't need to point it out", much like we wouldn't say, "FAU's College of Business sits on a piece of land which is part of the Earth's crust." Obviously. As an FAU student who has worked with current students of UCF, UF, and FSU, I understand that these individuals have school spirit and like to refer to FAU as "just a commuter school" to justify the fact that they don't want to go here (much like they refer to UCF as a "party school" to justify the fact that they would rather go to UF, which they consider more academically-oriented). My concern on Wikipedia (and I am not alone, from the discussions above) is that individuals who are opposing this are hiding behind a series of poorly-researched, half-baked websites and MySpace blurbs to oppress FAU for their own personal interest. Of course this is happening and of course I'm trying to oppose it. This is my school spirit. I came here to correct the misinformation placed on this page by individuals who are not current students, who never were students, and/or have no affiliation with the university whatsoever, yet they're making officious edits to the effect of, "Find Another University is popular with students" when in fact, it is not. I know this because I'm a current senior, I know many many many people on all levels from students to administration, I work for the school newspaper, and have never heard it once. Never. If I had, I would agree with it. Our experiences are equal but different in this regard. You've heard it from multiple people, I've not heard it from anyone ever and I've been here all four years. That tells me that people outside of the school are misinformed and spreading a bad reputation about FAU for some personal gain I can only imagine. And it's a little insulting to posit that what people outside of the campus are saying about what's happening on campus is more important than what people on the actual campus are saying. But on Wikipedia if you have the links, you have the power, so inevitably it's your interpretation that counts. I just have vast experience and multiple links by FAU officials that call FAU a "public research university" without mention to "commuter school" -- apparently those are irrelevant here? I proposed before that the mention of commuter school be added to the Miscellaneous section; in both instances the information is on the FAU page but one instance is contentious and damaging whereas the other instance is fair and gives qualifying information to justify the usage of the term. I don't see why there is an opposition to that since it would retain the "commuter school" concept that you believe merits inclusion on the official Wikipedia site for FAU. Would you agree that this is a more suitable alternative so we can fix it and end this discussion once and for all? Go Owls 22:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Commuter school" 

message: "Longer time to graduate swells debt" in today's Sun-Sentinel has a quote that relates indirectly to FAU's status as a commuter school: "[FAU] serves more older and part-time students than average." Another interesting comment is, 
In addition, FAU has traditionally had low admissions standards. For the first time this year, the university stopped admitting students whose test scores showed they need remedial work.
"We took in students who had no business attending the university and then were amazed when they didn't do well," FAU President Frank Brogan said.
I'm not sute if or how this should be included in the article. Any comments? -- Donald Albury 00:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems significant enough for inclusion.  I would put it under academics, or that disgusting "Miscellaneous" section toward the bottom (which is cheap, actually, everything there could probably be incorporated into some part of the article or removed). Bastiq▼e demandez 01:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Well, I don't think it tells us any new information. I do think it would be a better link than the current link after the phrase "commuter school" in the main summary.Go Owls 16:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting article

message: The Gay Academic Union of Florida Atlantic University, the third oldest L/G/B/T college organization in Florida, was founded in the late autumn of 1974. The University of Miami and the University of Florida had established gay organizations only a year or two prior. At the time, the GAU of FAU was the first L/G/B/T organization in Palm Beach County. This organization attracted many members, published a monthly newsletter and sponsored both educational and social events. Two years before the founding of the GAU, student Joel Michael Starkey (1946 -1992) was elected to the Student Government Association - the first openly gay student to achieve this, but shortly after GAU founder and president Mark N. Silber (b.1954)was the second openly gay member of the SGA. This organization played a notable role in the history of gay activism as the first such group in Palm Beach County and northern Broward County. 69.139.182.222 04:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FAU: A cradle of Gay/Lesbian activism in South Florida

message: I've removed the long list. There's a main page anyway. Here it is if anyone has a prob.
*Frank Brogan, former Lieutenant Governor of Florida, and current President of FAU
*Alberto "Al" Cardenas, attorney, and trustee at Florida A&M University
*Mary Carey, porn star
*Judith Ortiz Cofer, Puerto Rican author
*Richard DiMarchi, former Vice President at Eli Lilly and Company, and current Chairman in Biomolecular Sciences and professor of Chemistry at Indiana University
*Yolanda Griffith, basketball player in the WNBA
*George L. Hanbury II, Executive Vice President of Nova Southeastern University
*Tim Harikkala, Major League Baseball pitcher
*Carol W. Hunstein, Presiding Justice, Supreme Court of Georgia
*Ken Jenne, Sheriff of Broward County, Florida and former state legislator 
*Fern "Peachy" Kellymeyer , professional tennis player and administrator of the sport 
*Marc Kudisch, Broadway actor and two-time Tony nominee
*Henry Latimer , first African-American circuit court judge in Broward County, Florida
*Theresa LePore, former Supervisor of Elections for Palm Beach County, Florida, most notable for her role in the 2000 Presidential Election controversy 
*Patricia McKay, Executive Vice President, and Chief Financial Officer of Office Depot
*Carrie Meek, U.S. Congresswoman, Florida 17th 1993-2003
*Dan Mica, U.S. Congressman, first President of FAU’s student body
*Robert "Skip" Orr, President of Boeing Japan
*David Paulison, the current Under Secretary of the Federal Emergency Management Agency
*Carrot Top, comedian
*Ralph de la Vega, former President of BellSouth's Latin American operations, and current Chief Operating Officer of Cingular Wireless
*Dr. Robert P. Watson, author, national media commentator, former candidate for the U.S. House. Currently a professor at Florida Atlantic. 
*Maynard Webb, President of EBay Technologies
*Phil Zimmermann, Creator of Pretty Good Privacy
*Dr. George Zoley, Chairman and CEO of Wackenhut Corrections Corporation, and current trustee at FAU
*Mark Zupan, captain of the United States quadriplegic wheelchair rugby team.
SuzanneKn 22:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable alumni

message: I think you had better check Brogan's education. I do not believe he studied law at FSU. His masters is from FAU and I believe he is currently working on his PHD. If you look at the wikipedia article on Brogan, it doesn't mention FSU but does mention Cincinnati and FAU.--74.139.195.32 03:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  University Presidents 

message: I made a new FAU template to put at the bottom of this page and other pages. I changed it from the old one because I think this looks more professional and easier to read. I had a problem with the colors of the other one. Too much red, not enought blue and white. I also didn't think the names of all restaurants on campus (Starbucks, Burger King...) where relevant because there is nothing special about them on campus. I also removed the list of every single fraternity, and the other junk needed to be removed. 
All titles in black are articles that need to be created. So if you are looking for something to do have a go at it. I am going to try and create/cleanup the articles in the template over the next few weeks. 
If anyone has questions or comments please let me know, I am open to discussion and change. KnightLago 20:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New template