Talk:Dexaroi

message: :Can someone make a redirect for Dexari and Dexaroi?Megistias (talk) 21:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not what the sources say.Megistias (talk) 08:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: this source here, says the were illyrian. 
:A Dictionary of Greek and Roman geography: "Abacaenum-Hytanis. Volume 1, ed. by W. Smith: Walton & Maberly, 1854. p. 755 (... an Illyrian people... the Dassaretae possessed all the lower mountainous country lying between Koritza and Berat)  Stupidus Maximus (talk) 19:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No you are referring to these List_of_Illyrian_tribes#Dassareti . Read the article sources carefully, the link was at the top, how could you have missed it?Megistias (talk) 12:49, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Between KOritza and Berat? see page 755.  Stupidus Maximus (talk) 13:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've told you you need to rely on 20th century bibliography.Alexikoua (talk) 13:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: (@SM&socks) For certain it is pathetic to insist on this crap almost 3 years latter.Alexikoua (talk) 15:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  illyrian 

message: There is only one tribe called Dassaretae and this tribe is Illyrian. Read the sources:        and so on -  Euriditi  12:46, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry? Actually there are two diferrent tribes with similar name. The one that inhabited central-southern Albania (Dasaretae) was the Greek one (just click again on the sources you provided, for example CAH [] and Hammond []),all references confirm that the specific tribe belonged to the Chaonian group].Alexikoua (talk) 13:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: For God sake, Chaonia is an Illyrian tribe too. Note that I will not mention sources written by Albanians.
*... an Epirot tribe, who later settled partly in Skyros; and a place in the land of the Illyrian Chaonians in Epirus founded by him ...- p.5, Classical philology: Volume 36;Volume 36, 1941.
*Gillian Gloyer and Gillian Gloyer in the book Albania: the Bradt travel guide state that:
The town Saranda is an ancient town, first settled by the Illyrian tribe of the Chaonians, who called it Onchesmus. Cicero mentions it as a convenient harbour with a favourable prevailing wind. 
While in another source George Broke in his book History of Greece: Repr. from the ... London ed: Volume 3 - page 414 states that:
*... Theopompus about 340 bc reckoned fourteen distinct Epirotic nations among whom the Molossians and Chaonians were the principal. It is possible that some of these may have been semi Illyrian others semi Macedonian though all were comprised by him under the common name Epirots.(img) 
*Citation of Cassell's illustrated universal history by Edmund Ollier - Two republican States — those of the Chaonians and the Tliesprotians — were also barbarian ; but the Ambracian Republic, ... As respects its population, the barbaric element (due to the frequent inroads of Illyrian tribes) undoubtedly ...
Other sources:   . -  Euriditi  11:07, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

text: The Chaonians weren't "Illyrian too". Your sources are extremely old (Arnold), or else don't say what you claim they do (Hammond). Hammond is the main source on the Hellenicity of the Chaonians, he nowhere says they are Illryian, rather the opposite. And travel guides are not appropriate sources for articles such as these. Forget it. Athenean (talk) 20:49, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  A source is never old or archaic. If it is old enough you may call it reliable because it had stand alive through the time. I think that referring to only one source is unilateral. -  Euriditi  17:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Which "alive" source? Someone who haven't read older (ancient) sources that where citing Chaonians as Greeks and was only assuming? In the same way someone could assume at that time that Turks where Greeks,Hittites,Armenians,Luwians because they lived on part of the lands of these people and they were an "alive" example but we all know that this is not true. Take your nationalistic rantings out of Wikipedia!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.58.255.235 (talk) 07:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Illyrian tribe

message: Fortunately I have full access to this source. The specific quote concerns the Enchelae and not the Dassaretae. It can be easily confirmed from the source:
Actually this is a good addition for the Enchelae: and indeed they were possibly considered Boetian settlers due to the myth of Cadmus. Also, interesting appears the fact that they were considered Illyrian exclusively by Albanian and outdated (until early 20th century) scholars (see footnote). Alexikoua (talk) 08:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is referred also to Dassaretae, here is the full quote:  – Βατο (talk) 09:09, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Even by checking the footnote it's clear that this part concerns the Enchelae:
However, the following paragraph (the problems facing a possible Illyrian origin of Dassaretae), well this is relevant. Alexikoua (talk) 09:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

text: It is clearly also referred to Dassaretae. All information is relevant, not just what you like. – Βατο (talk) 09:35, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The first part concerns the Enchelae. By the way the author claims that Dassaretai inherited the land of the Enchelae... Well this is serious assumption that needs to be stated.09:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, because some scholars (including Proeva) consider the Dassaretae as the successors of the Enchelae, or the same but with different names. But unlike the statement of the presence of different theories (a fact that doesn't need "According to Nade Proeva"), the names of those scholars who support the Enchelean affiliation should be clarified because others like Hammond disagree with it. – Βατο (talk) 09:55, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the opinion of the specific scholar about the Enchelae (which you avoid to present in the correspondent article by the way). About the Dassaretae she is convinced that those Illyrian origin theories are outdated in light of archaeological and inscriptional evidence. I fail to see an agreement in western literature about Proeva's Enchelaen theory. Alexikoua (talk) 10:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Misuse of Proeva

message: This article should be named Dexari. The Chaonian tribe Dexari is mentioned solely by Stephanus of Byzantium citing Hecataeus, but Stephanus also mentions the Illyrian tribe Dessaretae citing Polybius, and clearly distinguishes those two tribes. Some older modern publications considered a possible equation of the two tribes, but in recent scholarship they are mostly considered distinct. The current name of this article (Dassaretae) is based on an old conjecture which still remains unproven, for this reason the article should be moved to the historically attested name. – Βατο (talk) 12:13, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Recycling the same arguments here has no meaning. I suggest you read the previous discussion on the very same subject about the failed move request. This article is about the Greek tribe Dassaretae/Dexari. "Some older publication"? Publication such as the Oxford Classical Dictionary of 2012? You have to be kidding.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that recent scholarship is clear that Dassaretae where an Epirotic tribe: These people (i.e. the Illyrian tribes) bordered on people of Epirotic origin an dubious ethnicity, the Chaonians and Molossians, and the Dassaretae possibly the same as the Dexari. This is from a very recent publication from Winnifrith.Alexikoua (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You are again misusing bibliography, don't do it because it's unconstructive for the discussion. The Oxford Classical Dictionary of 2012 does not mention Dassaretae, but Dexari, another reason to move the article to the correct name. Winnifrith (2020) states also that the Dassaretae were an Illyrian tribe south of Shkumbin. But the statement you added above is irrelevant for this discussion, as Winnifrith reports it as a hypothesis: . The historically attested name of this tribe is Dexari, the other one is a conjectural relation unaccepted by recent scholars like Eichner (2004) and Campbell (2009), who distinguish the Dexari and Dassaretae, hence it is enough to make the title of this article completely inappropriate. Strong arguments should be provided to keep the current name of the article, since it contrasts recent realiable sources. – Βατο (talk) 21:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon me but Winnifrith, 2021 states that the Dassaretae were people of Epirotic origin. We can not claim that a 2021 publication is an ... old one. This article is exactly about this tribe. If they were or were not the same people with the Dexari this is also part of the scope of this article.Alexikoua (talk) 13:43, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not claim Winnifrith (2021) is an old publication, don't put words in my mouth, which btw are nonsense because you have no arguments. Your misuse of sources becomes disruptive now, stop it please; this is the full quote from Winnifrith (2021), not just the the part you cherrypicked above:  who reports the Illyrian tribes south of Shkumbin - Bylliones and Dassaretae. Whether or not the Roman times Dassaret- are the same as the Chaonian Dexar- is a matter of dispute among modern scholars, and this article is about the Chaonian tribe. The current name of the article contrasts several reliable sources, violating WP:NOPOV. I fail to see a reason why hypothetical name Dassaretae should be considered more relevant as a title for the Wikipedia article about an ancient tribe that is surely attested as Dexari, can you provide one? – Βατο (talk) 21:58, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: As you noted the Chaonians and Molossians, and the Dassaretae are grouped together by Winnifrith and he clearly states that they are of Epirotic origin. I fail to see how Epirotic in this case can be interpreted as Illyrian ('Illyrian power' has not the same meaning with 'Illyrian people' if you mean that). I'm happy that you finally admit that recent publications make use of the Desarretae form. I'm not againt the creation of a new article (Dexari), but this one has to stay. Recycling old wrong arguments in this case falls into wp:IDONTLIKEIT.Alexikoua (talk) 18:57, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Correct name