Talk:Michel Aflaq

message: Some sources say that in fact the tomb of Michel Aflaq was levelled. If so, it should be covered in article.
 --Magabund 14:09, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you like you could upload the images to Wikipedia. The encyclopedia could very much use an image of the tomb. To upload a picture you'll need to create and account, once logged in an upload link will appear on the menu to the left. - SimonP 14:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some say... 

message: This article still needs tightening and clarification.  There are unqualified statements of fact that would not be appropriate for an encyclopedia entry, such as:
While considered an "ideological founder" of the Pan-Arab movement, Michel Aflaq had little connection to the governments that took power in Syria under the name of the Ba'ath party in 1963.
The original said he was "the ideological founder of the movement."  Which movement? The Ba'ath? In this case, my interpolation of "Pan-Arab" may be incorrect.  Please feel free to correct it.  Is it accurate to say he was the founder of the Ba'ath Party?  Is it a party or a movement?  And so on, striving for accuracy. --Mylitta 08:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Messy 

message: The Ba'ath Party article says he fled Syria and Iraq and went to Brazil. This article says he died in Paris, but effectively the narrative breaks off when he flees to Iraq from Syria.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:50, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Yazan (talk) 14:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened later 

message: Most, if not all, of the ISBNs in this article are incorrect.  They should be checked.  Mr Stephen (talk) 20:24, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Got them from google books. --TIAYN (talk) 22:41, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  ISBNs 

message: Why is there no mention of how Aflaq and other Arab nationalists were greatly attracted to 1930s European fascism? Here's some sources for his admiration of 1930s European fascism due to their strident anti-Zionism and militaristic nationalism, how he wanted to use Nazi Germany as a model for postwar Iraq, his enthusiasm for Hitler, subsequent antisemitic riots in Iraq etc.     —Filippusson (t.) 11:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you had known anything about Aflaq, or the ba'ath movement, you would have known the ba'ath movement during the 1940s turned down an alliance with Italy because it was fascist. Aflaq was not a fascist, he was a nationalist... Several nationalists (from all over the world) supported the nazies, or sympathised with the nazies, not because they were nazies themselves, because nazism fought against the british colonial empire - in Iraq this was the case. + Aflaq was a communist, and joined the Syrian-Lebanese Communist Party, however, Aflaq never joined the rascist Syrian Social Nationalist Party... Its a difference with sympathising with other nationallist movements, and supporting them.... When it came to anti-semitism, sources wary, some accuse him of being one, and some accuse him of not being one; its unclear. Aflaq was against the Jewish occupation of a part of the Arab homeland (e.g. Palestine).... + none of those sources say that Aflaq was influenced by Hitler, they say that nazism in general influenced Aflaq; thats something totally different... I reverted you're edits. --TIAYN (talk) 14:54, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

text: One of the sources (David Patterson: A Genealogy of Evil), explicitly states that Aflaq (and others) "were admirers and students of Adolf Hitler (...)" How can you dismiss this as "bullshit"? It would be the first time that I gain knowledge of Cambridge University Press publishing bullshit. You may assert that the book has been criticised among the specialist community (note e.g. this review), but simply dismissing it as "bullshit" and reverting without discussion is not acceptable. --RJFF (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: See page 84 in World fascism: a historical encyclopedia, Volum 1 (its available in Google Books). The author says that ba'athism had some characteristics with fascism, but the general link to ba'athism and German fascism was Aflaq's more-or-less anti-anglophile sentiments.... Ba'athism was not fascist, but was more similar to the pan-Europe ideology in Europe. The book you've sourced is, by all means, shit. I'm not saying that because I disagree with the man, I'm saying it because it contains a bunch of historical inaccuracies. --TIAYN (talk) 17:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that you don't like what the sources say, but that does not give you a special mandate to simply dismiss and censor anything related to Aflaq's fascist links. Of course there may be a discussion about what the nature of the links were, but to simply leave it out and pretend that it isn't even an issue is unacceptable (certainly if you want this article to pass as GA). —Filippusson (t.) 17:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem including such allegations, but you're edit says its fact, which its clearly not. The inclusion of ba'athism as a fascist ideology is extremely controversial. Of course, me or you or RJFF can of course create a sections entitled "Controversy" or "Allegations of fascism", but saying he was influenced by Adolph Hitler and claiming it be a non-controversial fact makes the article worse.. What I'ms saying is, controversial subjects should be handled with clear, either handle them with care, or don't handle them at all. --TIAYN (talk) 18:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it hard to believe that so many sources (I only displayed a small random selection, there's plenty more, including : "We know that a key Ba'athist ideologue, Michel Aflaq, expressed admiration for Hitler..." : "Leading Arab intellectuals such as Michel Aflaq ... adopted Nazi ideas..." etc.) would just make something up, which seems to be what you claim. Nonetheless you know very well that Wikipedia have to reflect what sources say, not the personal opinions of editors. So unless you have sources that claims the opposite, i.e. that Aflaq was not in part influenced by 1930s fascism and Nazism, you have no right to just censor it from this article. The sources seem to disagree with you. —Filippusson (t.) 14:54, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

text: I've given you a source, and there are plenty more.. Read the posts above (I have more sources)... The majority of Arabs symphatised with German nazism, but influence and symphaty does not mean they were nazis, thats the only thing I've been saying. Some claim that he was a Nazi, the majority don't. A quick search will prove that. If you want to you can write a "Controversy" or "Allegation of being a Nazi section", but claiming that he was a Nazi as the sole and only fact is wrong. The majority of scholars don't believe he was a Nazi. --TIAYN (talk) 15:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You know perfectly well that nobody has said that Aflaq "was a Nazi." What we have said is that Aflaq was in part influenced by fascism, Nazism and Hitler. I have no intention of making a particularly big deal out of this in the article, but I think it should be mentioned in a few sentences where it discusses Aflaq's ideology/thought. —Filippusson (t.) 16:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

text: We all know he was influenced by fascism, I've never heard however that he was influenced by Adolph Hitler... There is a reason for why the ba'ath movement turned down an alliance with fascist Italy you know. Another problem is that everybody he was influenced, nobody agrees on how much effect this influence had.. I'm saying, as I've always said, write a controversy section (in the ideology section if you like) about the amount of influence of nazism on Aflaq. The point is however, you can't present these as the sole facts, cause they aren't, you can claim however that several people believe he was heavily influenced by Hitler and nazism. But you'll have to present that in a way which is neutral.. This is not Goebbels, who was a known Nazi, a open Nazi, Aflaq believed in democracy for all (never excluded any groups), the only thing which is fascist like in his ideology is that he wants to kick out the European imperialists and the Jews from Israel (but many Arabs want to kick the Jews out of Israel, thats not fascist - of course, I know this if NPOV, but its true).. Many people claim Aflaq to be fascist because he was a nationalist, and because he opposed Israel, and every inch of its existence - they accuse him of anti-semitism (which, again, is controversial, since we don't know for sure).... Just write a "controversy" or a "allegation of being a nazi" section (and yes, you can add it in the thoughts section); OK? --TIAYN (talk) 17:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fascist/Nazi attraction 

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thread_title:  External links modified