Talk:Fort Lauderdale, Florida/Archive 2

message: Does anyone object to the transition to the template ?  As an active member of WikiProject Cities, I am trying to standardize the template on pages I visit. Alan.ca 23:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox City 

message: While Cooper City and Weston do not directly border Ft. Lauderdale, neither do Southwest Ranches nor Pembroke Pines. If the purpose of the list to to put actual shared boundaries, then all of these need to go. 
I think the list (or a new list should be added) should include any city that is part of the "Ft. Lauderdale address system" - that is, if you put on a letter "Ft. Lauderdale" as the city, your letter is still address properly.Butnotthehippo 21:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please keep non-bordering cities and universities not located in the city limits out of this article. If Southwest Ranches and Pembroke Pines are in there as bordering cities, and they do not share boundaries with Fort Lauderdale, they should be removed.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  Bastiq▼e demandez 22:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The list for private school reads "private schools serving Ft. Lauderdale." I added a private school that serves Ft. Lauderdale, and a reference showing its mailing address as such. If the terminology of those lists of educational institutions are changed, then those lists have several items that are not physically in Ft. Lauderdale. I think the "serving" language is more informative and should be left as is. Butnotthehippo 00:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your source for saying that Fort Lauderdale is served by University School? Remember that, per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden of evidence, you need to cite published, reputable sources to add that statement back into the article. -- Donald Albury 03:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If an institution provides for a city as its offical mailing address, then I believe that would qualify that institution as "serving" that city. My reference, in no way that I can analyze, fails to meet the requirements for reputable sources. Butnotthehippo 04:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  I added more references. I think this is a non-issue. Butnotthehippo 04:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is still a problem. University School is in Davie, not Fort Lauderdale. Are you going to add University School to the school lists in every other city in Broward County? However, I will not edit war over this point. -- Donald Albury 01:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I couldn't see it.  I could not see keeping a Southwest Ranches school in the article and felt compelled to remove the other one as well.  Let's keep this to Fort Lauderdale and districts serving Fort Lauderdale.  Countywide or regional private schools are not appropriate.  Bastiq▼e demandez 20:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that was as great compromise.  Good idea, Bnth! Bastiq▼e demandez 14:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: bordering cities and private schools

message: Somebody tagged a citation requirement for one tidbit in the "History" section. Well, I found a source, but it is a secondary source of unknown reliability, with a bibliography listing the original (book) source. Perhaps someone in Broward County can find it in one of the local libraries, because I'm not going to find it here in Gainesville. The online cite is here and the book referenced is Jewel in the Wilderness, Fort Lauderdale From Early Times to 1911. Broward County Comprehensive Survey Phase VIII, by Paul S. George. Published by Historic Broward County Preservation Board. 1988. If we can verify the citation's accuracy, then we can add it to the refs and remove the citation needed tag.
On a totally unrelated topic, I'd like to take the list of Fort Lauderdale neighborhoods and set up a subpage for listing them, then use a brief narrative discussing the Neighborhood Organization Recognition Program, instead of the huge chunk-o-links that is there now. One of the recommendations for improving articles is to use prose instead of lists when possible, and the rather specific guidelines Fort Lauderdale has specified for defining a neighborhood is something that could be paraphrased into prose. We don't need to list all 90 or so communities on the main page. Again, I'd rather have some sort of consensus rather than just being bold, since that is a really big change to this article's structure. If that works, we should consider doing the same thing with all of the famous people, although :Category:People from Fort Lauderdale, Florida already exists, and we could simply link to it. Horologium talk - contrib 06:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sourcing/Subpaging

message: Okay, I went ahead and moved the neighborhoods to an external page. I went through the list with a fine-tooth comb and a few of them didn't survive. Here's a rundown:
*Broadview--I am pretty sure this is Broadview Park, which is outside the city limits.
*Citrus Isles--A little checking with Google indicates that this is part of the River Oaks neighborhood.
*Riverland-Woodlands--could not find this anywhere. Suspect it is the same as Riverland Woods, which is on the list already.
*Royal Palm--There is a Royal Palm Ranch near Davie, that is not within the city limits. That was the only neighborhood I could find.
*Sunland--Sunland Park is part of Durrs, where Sunland Park Elementary is located.
*Terra Mar Island--This is in Lauderdale-by-the-Sea, not Fort Lauderdale.
Please, please, before adding to that page, bring it up on the discussion page. By using the city website (their Neighborhood Association listing and the map) I was able to locate all of the neighborhoods except for the ones I deleted, and Himmarshee Village, which is the little white space in the center of downtown. One of the reasons that list looked so bad was the continual additions and subtractions without bothering to reorganize. OxyMoronMinusOxy did a nice job of alphabetizing and retabling, but there was just too much information there.
Horologium talk - contrib 05:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neighborhoods moved to external page

message: I went through and pulled a few schools off the list. Lynn University is in Boca Raton, Northeast High is in Oakland Park, Boyd Anderson is in Lauderdale Lakes, and Nova is in Davie. I also removed the unlinked St. Mark's Episcopal School because it is K-8 only, does not have a Wikipedia entry, and is not likely to have one (it will get nominated for deletion as non-notable.) All of the high schools serve students in Fort Lauderdale, but they are not located *in* Fort Lauderdale, as indicated in the entry. Addtionally, the link for Cardinal Gibbons was to a school in North Carolina, so I reworded the link. There does not appear to be an article for the CGHS in Fort Lauderdale.
We should also go through and thin out the Sites of Interest; not all of them are really that noteworthy. Lockhart Stadium is going to be bulldozed out of existence, the two churches are primarily of interest only to those who worship in those congregations (although Calvary Chapel is apparently enormous), and some of the other entries are marginal at best. The Swap Shop? Port Everglades? It looks like every museum in the city is listed, except the King-Cromartie House; I'm not sure how notable some of them are, especially those without Wiki entries. Again, I'll wait for a few days, but I'd like to thin out some of the chaff. Eventually, I'd like to see this article reach Good Article status, but it needs some of the fluff pulled out first. Horologium talk - contrib 04:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schools/Sites of Interest 

message: Twice this weekend, I have removed the insertion of the word "invasion" into the history section of this article by another editor, who appears intent on painting the non-"Native American" settlers of Fort Lauderdale in a negative light. I have removed the information because it is patently PoV, and because it is factually shaky. The South Florida area was very thinly populated prior to the 20th century, either by the Tequesta, the Seminoles, or white settlers that arrived later. The  several hundred Seminoles who lived in Broward County after the Seminole wars of the Mid 1800s lived primarily on Pine Island, which is located in present-day Davie, not Fort Lauderdale. There was little competition between the Indians and the American settlers, because there was plenty of room to go around. I would like to see a consensus on wording of the history section before the word "invasion" is reintroduced into the article. Horologium t-c 00:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: the white "settlers" did not live there previously, did not own the land, were not native to America and came from outside (or their parents did) therefore the word "invaders" is a perfectly good description of them ... they invaded the land. words like "contact", "settlers" etc are therefore weasel words that avoid the truth ... all of course IMHO. I have put the word "invaders" in at the first opportunity so that this fact is not lost from the article ... of course if there is a consensus for removing it (more than one editor) then naturally I will agree. Abtract 10:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The word "Invasion" in my opinion, seems to show more W:POV than an accurate display of encyclopedic fact. I have changed the wording so that it is non POV and still makes the same statement. The Seminoles did in fact live in the now known area of Davie which is not Fort Lauderdale. They have always found themselves to be pushed to the Southwest area of the region and even to date, this is where you will find the majority. That is of course unless the Census Bureau has it wrong? Junebug52 11:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree thet "invasion" is POV but I do like your edit ... thanks. Abtract 12:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am satisfied with the current wording of that section. I made a minor change (European's arrival to Europeans' arrival), but the rest of the verbiage works for me. Horologium t-c 19:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Invasion

message: I have been trying to de-listify this article as much as possible (in accordance with the Manual of Style guidelines). The new list on schools directly contradicts that, unless we create another separate subpage (which I will do, if we can get something resembling a consensus). If it is not obvious by now, my intent is to submit this page for a good article nomination, but until we de-listify some of the stuff we currently have, that is not going to happen. The sites of interest, notable residents, and now the education section consist of lists with no (or little) data, which is not something the guidelines recommend. The sister cities section is also bare links, but that might fly, as it is only 15 links.
If we do create a new subpage, List of schools in Fort Lauderdale, Florida or something similar, we can create a section to include schools outside the city that serve part of the city, such as Boyd Anderson High School or Nova High School, but as the article is constructed now, we have excluded them.
As to the other sections that are just lists, can we come up with some suggestions on what is really important and what can be discarded? As I mentioned some time ago, some of the sites of interest aren't very interesting, and some of the notable residents aren't very notable. However, I don't want to start an edit war by deleting someone's favorite place to visit or someone's favorite Playboy model, but those sections need to be trimmed down. Horologium t-c 23:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists  

message: I went ahead and delinked a number of redlinked articles, because it is unlikely that anyone is going to create articles for them. North Broward Hospital District and Broward General Medical Center, William Lauderdale, and the Greater Fort Lauderdale Convention and Visitor's Bureau are not flaming hot topics for creation of even a stub. Another editor took care of stubbing up Broward County Transit while pushing the Coral Springs article to B class and a review at WP:GA. With the removal of those and a couple more links, we are down to only three red links on this article: William Cooley, Jim Naugle, and Agogo, Ghana. I will try to throw together a stub on Cooley (since his family's murder resulted in the withdrawal of all of the settlers in the area), but I can't find much useful information on Jim Naugle, the current mayor, which is unquestionably the most important of the three articles. Someone who has access to local media in the Fort Lauderdale area might have more luck than I have here in Gainesville. As for Agogo, Ghana, (one of the city's 15 sister cities) I'll see if I can come up with something on that too. Horologium t-c 03:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agogo, Ghana now has a stub. The German version of Wikipedia had an article, and with a little help from Google translation, I was able to whip up something. It's stubby and ugly, but it's a start, and it eliminates another red link. Horologium t-c 06:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Legionarius has done an outstanding job putting together articles for William Cooley and now Jim Naugle. We have no more redlinks on the page now, which is a sign that the article is getting closer to being ready for reassessment. Legionarius was the prime mover behind getting the Coral Springs, Florida article promoted to Good Article status, so give him a big hand. He was also the editor who created the Broward County Transit stub. Horologium t-c 05:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your kind words. I think Jim Naugle is pretty much done. Surprisingly, there are more good sources for William Cooley than for him (even his official bio is mispelled). The main source was an Interview for the New Times, but all the comments are sourced and NPOV. Things that would be good to have: a better picture and some information about his past elections. I found something, but I concede that all those primaries and pre-primaries are too complicated for me. Legionarius 07:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Getting the red out 

message: I uploaded , but it is not a very good picture.--Legionarius 16:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Las olas pic 

message: I've gone ahead and removed the languages subhead (again) because if and when this article goes up for Good Article status, I expect that there will be a recommendation to remove it, as happened with Coral Springs, Florida earlier this week. GA criterion recommends fewer small sections; that section only comprises two sentences, and fits nicely inside the demographics section without the subhead. For reference see the discussion at the Coral Springs GA nomination here. Horologium t-c 20:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languages subhead 

message: I went in and revised the History area to make it flow better and read easier. I think the order of events are also a little easier to understand to the general reader. Before it seem to me as a group of randon additions. At least now it reads as a chronological guideline. Let me know if it feels good to you.. Junebug52 03:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's better. I am (very slowly) putting together a much more comprehensive history (which I plan to introduce as yet another subpage once it is done), but improving the grammar of the current article has the dual benefit of making the article better now, and providing a more sound base for me to start. (grin) Horologium t-c 03:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History