Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

message: My edit was reverted. I added The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to Category:Anti-abortion movement in the United States which seems acceptable. The challenge is: “ Church policy permits abortion in certain cases” which if properly researched, accounts for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being 1% against abortion. Here is the citation: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/24/rape-and-incest-account-few-abortions-so-why-all-attention/1211175001/ First sentence: “ Just 1% of women obtain an abortion because they became pregnant through rape, and less than 0.5% do so because of incest, according to the Guttmacher Institute.” Thus, The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder-day Saints are 99% against abortion, meaning, it should most certainly be represented. Twillisjr (talk) 15:44, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: A reversion does feel extreme. Couldn't this be kept and edited slightly to reflect the exceptions that LDS believes are reasonable? Jim Killock (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've misunderstood as it's about adding a category, not general information. I think this depends on how the anti-abortion movement frames itself, and that is beyond my expertise to know. Jim Killock (talk) 23:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  In 2016, the Pew Research Center released this chart: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/ft_16-06-22_churchabortion/ and the same edit was done to the Catholic Church page without resistance. Twillisjr (talk) 23:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems clear. I see there is a Wikipedia page that makes the same point. Jim Killock (talk) 23:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there is a distinction between having anti-abortion teachings and being part of the anti-abortion movement in the US. With the Catholic Church (to which the category was added only a few days ago by the OP, so not a good indication of WP pattern) there were official groups within the church, such as the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, involved directly in movement events and efforts. I don't know if there is anything similar for the LDS Church. I am not seeing any other religious groups or denominations with similar teachings on abortion being included in the category. Also, the phrasing of the movement's WP page which says the movement "finds support in" various religious groups seems to imply that there is overlap but not outright partnership or membership by the actual churches. Certainly there are LDS that are part of the anti-abortion movement, but there are also LDS that are part of the pro-choice movement. Further, categories should be apparent from the body of the article - what text in the article supports this categorization? --FyzixFighter (talk) 00:27, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

text: Views on birth control in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has some information, in the abortion subsection, which can be improved with some of the information and citations I’ve provided. Then, excerpts may be shared with the main page. Category follows. Twillisjr (talk) 15:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: 2 Months Later: “Abortion” isn’t in the article. Twillisjr (talk) 14:57, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abortion  

message: Reletively Recently, the church made a statement in support of the lgbtq movement, can someone please look into including this in the article, and find some secondary sources about this. Not a kitsune (talk) 16:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outdated information  

message: As noted on the peer review, the lead in this article does not reflect the page content, which as around 40% content on criticisms of the church, where the lead has about two sentences. AIUI to meet GA criteria, the page should reflect the Manual of Style for the Lead section, which states that "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article."
As of present, the imbalance of the lead also violates NPOV, by de-emphasising the criticisms in relation to the sources, as reflected in the body of the page. Jim Killock (talk) 13:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Acknowledging I'm coming to this thread a bit later than it started, this does seem like a problem, though I can't help but think a more comprehensive solution would be to follow the advice of WP:CRITICISM and, rather than section off criticism and controversy into another section, to weave the content throughout. To use just one example, the section on Home and family would be a reasonable place to bring up polygamy and queerphobic teachings. The tithing and financial controversy sections could be combined into a financial practices section. Etc. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 23:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like a good idea; if the authors want to move the article to FA status as they have suggested, this kind of change is likely to make it easier to get there. Jim Killock (talk) 09:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article lead 

message: The name Mormon Church is inaccurate, confusing, and disrespectful to the members of the church. Why not use the actual name which the church identifies with, rather than insist on using a nickname that the church rejects? Truth971 (talk) 14:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Refer to the FAQ at the top of the talk page Fanfanboy (talk) 13:42, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formerly referred to as Mormon 

message: @Trevdna, Regarding this, my gut says it's more than can be dismissed as WP:Recentism. Two days after the SLTribune article used as a source in the above edit, the NYTimes picked up the story. Link to NYTimes story (There's also a copy on Yahoo News that's less likely to be paywalled.) ~Awilley (talk) 19:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Instagram post on women 

message: I reverted a recent change that switched the classification from "Restorationist" to "New Religious Movement". The argument was made that "Restorationist" isn't a classification. However, at Christian denomination#Major branches, Restorationism was listed as one of the six main groups into which Christianity can be divided. While NRM and Restorationist are not mutually exclusive (there are overlaps), the classification "Restorationist" is more informative and more inline with how the classification parameter is used on other Christian church pages. I also did a scan of Christian churches/groups in List of new religious movements that use this infobox, and the majority founded after 1830 do not list NRM as its classification (I think I found only one or two that listed NRM). - FyzixFighter (talk) 01:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I just now saw this discussion a short while after having removed the classification. I don't really care or have an opinion either way. But by this point, it's clear that any classification must include a citation to a supporting reliable source per WP:BURDEN, since we have two unsourced claims being challenged both ways. Left guide (talk) 07:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The current article doesn't actually seem to mention NRM at all which is bizarre, perhaps it was scrubbed by religious extremists at some point? Our page on New Religious Movements spends a lot of time on the LDS, but that isn't reflected in any of the LDS pages I can see. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:29, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Agreed that they aren't mutually exclusive, the LDS Church is both Restorationist and a New Religious Movement. I'm happy with either or both, but I tend to see using Restorationist and not NRM as averring from NPOV and calling these groups not what is most relevant but what they want to be called... None self identify as a NRM as far as I am aware. The LDS Church is more like the Unification Church than most other Restorationist movements in that they have additional fundamental beliefs things which are not found within Christianity. If we're making a scale of "most Christian to least Christian" LDS and Unification are about as Christian as Christians are Jews. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:29, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you able to identify any sources that specifically refer to the LDS Church as a new religious movement? I see a lot of what appears to be personal analysis of religion, but it ultimately comes down to what the sources say. In addition to the New religious movement article, there's also New religious movements in the United States which may be another useful starting point in researching for sources. Left guide (talk) 15:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Both of those pages contain such sources. I am unaware of any full length publication on new religious movements which does not, they almost all start with the LDS. They aren't just a NRM, they are the archetypical NRM. Its also used within Mormon studies itself extensively, the theme of Claremont's mormon studies conference (the largest not organized by BYU) in 2021 was "‘Mormon’: The Politics of Naming New Religious Movements" for an example from within BYU see . Its not really a contest, both can be sourced... One (NRM) admittedly more extensively than the other, but both could be the way to go. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it's not a contest, and that both can be included (if reliably-sourced of course). I should have been more clear about that at the outset. Left guide (talk) 15:22, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

text: is a straightforward identification of the denomination as "restorationist" in a comfortably non-religious academic context. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 15:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "the LDS Church is both Restorationist and a New Religious Movement." True, though this "new" movement has nearly 200 years of history and surprising staying power. In any case, Restorationism covers Christian new religious movements that arose in the 19th century, as one of the main effects of that new "religious fervor" in the Second Great Awakening. Remarkably different that previous versions of Christianity. Dimadick (talk) 17:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "Restorationist" is better than NRM in the infobox because it is far more descriptive in concisely locating the church in the overall hierarchy of religion. (Religion > Christianity > Christian primitivist/restorationist > Mormonism, instead of Religion > New Religious Movments > Mormonism.) That helps clarify its relationship to other early-American NRMS like Pentacostalism (Christian, but not primitivist), Jehovah's Witnesses (Christian and primitivist), and Scientology (not Christian). ~Awilley (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never seen Pentacostalism referred to as an NRM and google isn't turning up anything, source? I will also point out that it doesn't have to be an either or situation, we can have two (some infoboxes have up to a half dozen). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: —From the first page of Google results for "Pentecostalism AND New Religious Movement":  (The West Virginia Encyclopedia, West Virginia Humanities Council, last revised August 8, 2023). From a GoogleScholar search:  (Nova Religio: The Journal of Alternative and Emergent Religions, February 2008).—While other articles might list half a dozen categories, MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE reminds us to keep infoboxes brief where possible. Listing in the infobox the most precise and relevant category—"Christian restorationist" (placing the denomination in context with other restorationist denominations, like the Disciples of Christ and Jehovah's Witnesses) is more informative than "NRM". Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "relatively new religious movement" =/= new religious movement... That Nova Religio articles does use it though, that surprises me. I don't see how excluding NRM is informative, don't you want them to know that the LDS Church is a NRM? Or do you disagree with the characterization of the LDS Church as a NRM? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with overstuffing sidebars with every possible description and favor terms that are more precise over terms that are less precise, and the Manual of Style favors briefer infoboxes where possible. Awilley has thoroughly explained how "restorationist" more precisely identifies the church within the religious landscape and is therefore suitable for the infobox. There is a whole body text in which to convey information, beyond the infobox which for space considerations is only a partial summary of key points of information—like so. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 02:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 15:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox classification