Talk:Italian Communist Party

message: I'm sure the person who wrote this thinks they bent over backwards in being scrupulously fair; but they could've bent backwards just a little more...
So at some point there needs to be added here the dirty tricks campaign waged by CIA and friends in the first postwar elections -- which is basically why the PCI lost them. This will add some balance to what the original author went into detail about later, during the "White Coup", Gladio period.
As well, there is a reference to abstract (Western) "Democracy"[sic] which implies the usual: that there's something specially democratic about the bourgeois variety of democracy. Which there isn't.
So that particular section needs to have this qualified as "bourgeois democracy" or some such.
I will get to changing this above stuff later, if someone else doesn't first.
Pazouzou 23:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Mithrokin commission" was created by the old centre-right majority in 2002, and it didn't have an "ex-communist majority". Also, PCI never went to government, and the first Italian government with former communists  in Italy was the Prodi government in 1996. To tell that "attemps to find the truth has been blocked by the old italian powers, which are, by the case, linked to the PCI (PCI itself, magistracy, etc)" is just spreading right-wing FUD. The PCI was never on the nice side of terror; in facts, the extra-parliamentary left (extra-parliamentary for a reason), who originated all of the armed groups, was always opposed to the PCI line, since the end of the '60, well before the Moro kidnapping. GhePeU 17:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mithrokin's documents and Andrew's work is very clear: the PCI from just shortly after WWII until the late 70's was on Moscow's gravy trains to the tune of several million dollars a year. As Ghepeu pointed out though, the PCI was upset with the Red Brigades, and more so with Moscow’s continuing support of them, and this was the issue thatr started to drive the wedge between Moscow and the PCI. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Mithrokin documents shall not be taken as absolute truth, since their authenticity has never been proved. They are a thousand of paper hand written by Mithrokin, and not photocopies of original documents. It has not been explained yet how this former KGB agent could have transcribed by hand such a big amount of secret docs, hidden and smuggled from Moscow without KGB realizing it. Any statement relying on it must be considered and described as dubious and not necessarily true.--Desyman44 (talk) 22:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Please note that the parliamentary research (based on a ex-communist majority) didn't find any proof of the truth of it. On the other side Gorbachev, who spontaneously presented himself in Italy as witness, has never been listened. For the moment we can't say that Mitrokhin said the truth, as we can't said that he said the false. Therefore I strongly suggest:
a) To maintain the sentence: "According to Mitrokhin, the party asked the Soviets to pressure the Czechoslovakian State Security (StB) to withdraw their support to the group, which Moscow was unable or unwilling to do.[1]"
b) To restore the paragraph: "- Mitrokhin reports financing of the Italian Communist Party from the Soviet-Union between 1971 and 1977 as follows:   
-    
- * 1971: 1,600,000 USD   
- * 1972: 5,200,000 USD   
- * 1974: 10,500,000 USD   
- * 1976: 6,500,000 USD   
- * 1977: 1,000,000 USD"
Regarding point b): we can't know if it corrispond to truth or not. Sure we know that the PCI has been accused many times of having received funds from the soviets; all attemps to find the truth has been blocked by the old italian powers, which are, by the case, linked to the PCI (PCI itself, magistracy, etc). Therefore it is important to mention the reporting of Mitrokhin, of course as a reporting of him and not as a verified truth. The PCI has been during all his history accused to be the hand of the soviets in Italy, and during the terror years it has been accused of being the nice side of terror. Often it has even act as if it was. Only after the murder of Prime Minister Moro the italian communist party acted against terror.
--151.27.23.141 14:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Mithrokin commission" was created by the old centre-right majority in 2002, and it didn't have an "ex-communist majority". Also, PCI never went to government, and the first Italian government with former communists  in Italy was the Prodi government in 1996. To tell that "attemps to find the truth has been blocked by the old italian powers, which are, by the case, linked to the PCI (PCI itself, magistracy, etc)" is just spreading right-wing FUD. The PCI was never on the nice side of terror; in facts, the extra-parliamentary left (extra-parliamentary for a reason), who originated all of the armed groups, was always opposed to the PCI line, since the end of the '60, well before the Moro kidnapping. GhePeU 17:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mithrokin's documents and Andrew's work is very clear: the PCI from just shortly after WWII until the late 70's was on Moscow's gravy trains to the tune of several million dollars a year. As Ghepeu pointed out though, the PCI was upset with the Red Brigades, and more so with Moscow’s continuing support of them, and this was the issue thatr started to drive the wedge between Moscow and the PCI. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 18:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Mithrokin documents shall not be taken as absolute truth, since their authenticity has never been proved. They are a thousand of paper hand written by Mithrokin, and not photocopies of original documents. It has not been explained yet how this former KGB agent could have transcribed by hand such a big amount of secret docs, hidden and smuggled from Moscow without KGB realizing it. Any statement relying on it must be considered and described as dubious and not necessarily true.--Desyman44 (talk) 22:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Mitrokhin 

message: In 1991, 14 monthes after the falling of the Berlin Wall the PCI disbanded to form the Partito Democratico della Sinistra (PDS). What's wrong with it? The falling of the Berlin wall and the countings of the citizens of the DDR about their conditions under communism WAS the reason of the changing of name (and, later, even the symbol).
--151.27.23.141 14:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PCI and PDS 

message: The information that the PCI was recieving money from the Soviets it not restricted to Mitrokhin, as he is one of a number of sirces (including the PCI) who have confromed this, Mitrokhin’s contributions is in the precise numbers that Moscow gave to the PCI. This is really not as controversial as you would like to portray it. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PCI Funding 

message: I removed:
:After the Athens Colonel Coup in April of 1967, Longo and other PCI leaders became alarmed at the possibility of a repeat in Italy (there was two attempted coup in Italy in the 1964 and 1970 by neo-fascist and military groups). Giorgio Amendola formally requested Soviet assistance to prepare the party in case of such an event. The KGB drew up and implemented a plan to provide the PCI with its own intelligence and clandestine signal corps. From 1967 through 1973, PCI members were sent to East Germany and Moscow to receive training in clandestine warfare and information gathering techniques by both the Stasi and the KGB. Shortly before the May 1972 elections, Longo personally wrote to Leonid Brezhnev asking for, and receiving and additional $5.7 million in funding. This was on top of the 3.5 million that the PCI was given in 1971. The Soviets also provided additional funding through the use of front companies providing generous contracts to PCI members. 
and
:Relationships also were strained as Czechoslovakian State Security (StB) support for the Italian Red Brigade increased. The PCI was uncomfortable with the Red Brigade’s tactics, and after the kidnapping and murder of Christian-democrat party leader Aldo Moro in 1978, the PCI asked the Soviets to pressure the Czech StB to withdraw support, which Moscow was unable or unwilling to do.
This kind of statements should be adequately supported by sources. GhePeU 10:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I replaced it an added the sources. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 12:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: A brief response: too bad. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources needed 

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thread_title:  Image copyright problem with Image:Enricoberlinguer327.jpg 

message: This article seems to be talking about the same party as Communist Party of Italy under different names. I suggest a merger. Ltwin (talk) 07:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If that is the case then, Desyman, then perhaps someone who knows more about it should explain it better then the article currently does. The articles now just give the impression that the name change was the primary difference between the two entities. But if the articles were merged I don't see how it would violate the policy on article length, but I could be wrong. I would like to point out that currently the article on the Communist Party of Italy says that the party was using the name PCI even before the official name change, and in the same article, the party is referred to as the PCI. If the article isn't merged, it needs a serious rewrite to clarify this issue. Ltwin (talk) 21:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It.Wiki is not a reliable source and the partition in two articles is very controversial to me as they both speak about the identical party. It is true that the party underwent major changes especially in its structure in the 1930s, but a single good article can explain also this and it won't be too long as the the two articles are currently short. --Checco (talk) 21:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

text: The vote expressed by unregistered users, especially when totally disinformed (to say PCI was completely stalinized is ridiculous, since Di Vittorio, f.e., has always been far from stalinism) should not taken into consideration. Not to mention the risk of socket puppeting.--Desyman44 (talk) 12:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It only matters what the sources say, users opinion doesn't count.--Sum (talk) 17:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. There are no sources telling us that they were two different parties. PCd'I/PCI was the same identical party, which simply underwent some organizational changes during World War II and that eventually changed its name. --Checco (talk) 12:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with Communist Party of Italy? 

message: The Italian Communist Party is "Left wing"? Surely Far Left is more accurate.Royalcourtier (talk) 07:08, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: PCI was by no means a far-left party. It was a party of 1.8 million members, very much a mainstream party in post-WWII Italy. There were various far left groups in Italy at the time, in violent opposition to PCI. --Soman (talk) 10:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The PCI was a far-left party, but in relative terms it was left-wing and Soman is correct to highlight the PCI's mainstream status. --Checco (talk) 14:39, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

text: The capability to establish an agreement with other non-communist parties by the PCI clearly makes this party not being in the far-left, as they even made the historic compromise with centre-right Christian democrats. – B.Lameira (talk) 23:46, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, Christian Democracy was not centre-right. It was a centrist party, including both right-wing and left-wing elements and individuals. In fact, some former Christian Democrats eventually joined the PCI/PDS into the Democrats of the Left. --Checco (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I keep repeating that "position" ought to be removed from infoboxes. It is always relative and always subjective. For PCI, which is a historical party, its even more ambigous. Clearly PC(d')I 1928 and PCI 1989 had quite different roles in Italian society. --Soman (talk) 11:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be ambiguous, but it is always very useful for readers. I'm for keeping it in each and every infobox. --Checco (talk) 11:12, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Left-wing? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Re this edit, can we get a quote from the article which supports the claim that "Declassified information shows this to be exaggerated" rather than "Declassified information from Soviet archives states that the PCI relied on Soviet financial assistance, more so than any other Communist party supported by Moscow"?
Can we also get an explanation for why the sentence "The party received perhaps as much as $60 million from the end of World War II until the PCI’s break with Moscow in the early 1980s" is being removed?  Volunteer Marek  02:26, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Journal of Cold War studies 

message: I have seen that in the past there has already been a similar proposal, but I have read untrue reasons: the Italian Communist Party and the Communist Party of Italy are the same party, it is not an opinion, it is a fact. In it.wikipedia there are those who opposed the merge for reasons of weight of the final page and proposed the modification of the Communist Party of Italy's page. In reality, the final page would not be too heavy even in it.wikipedia, but here, being the two pages much shorter, the problem does not exist in the least. Since the Italian Communist Party was born in 1921 as "Communist Party of Italy" and changed its name in 1943, I propose that the two pages should be definitively united. --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal