Talk:Boy Scouts of America/Archive 1

message: To anonymous user 164.58.83.66: Please stop removing information from this page.  If you continue to do so, I will ask that this page be protected.  I do not object to your first couple of modifications, but the removal of useful information is unacceptable. --Smack 22:05, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: The Boy Scout Handshake is the traditional shake, done with the left hand instead of the right.
Does this mean "traditional handshake"?  The Boy Scout handshake isn't a normal handshake... -- bdesham
Never saw you defend your edit.  Words in quotes are exactly what the BSA believes.
::By traditional handshake, he means that you shake someone's hand like you normally would, only you use your left hand instead of your right.  It feels weird.  Anyways, I allways thought that the reason that the left hand is used (contrary to what the article says) was because of something to do with Lord Baden Powell's expericence in Africa (I heard it at a Scoutmaster's minute like 6 years ago).  I did an internet search and came up with this: http://www.lrtroop55.org/html/lord_baden-powell_.html (The part I'm talking about it roughly 1/2 way down the page).  So, is this true or is it just some story?  Either way, I think it would be good to mention it in the article. --Will 18:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead and put it in, but only as an alternative explanation.  FWIW, I've never heard that story. --Smack (talk) 05:07, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I was told, the reason why we shake with our left hand because the left hand is closest to our heart. There is another website that discusses the left hand theory, at http://www.scouttroop511.com/boy%20scouts/scout.handshake.htm. Zscout370 (talk) 17:11, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not aware of any "hand clasp" other than the OA hand clasp, and that probably shouldn't be on the wiki anyway. --Smack (talk) 03:41, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The original BSA hand shake was know as the hand clasp and was different then the left handed handshake used today. The original hand clasp was made with the right hand and the little fingers were interlocked. It later evolved slowly into what it is today. (see http://home.earthlink.net/~scouters/history.html#anchor345906). ScooterSES 05:51, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: handshake

message: The Controversy section is important, needs to be there, and is pretty good. But I honestly do not think that the controversy over gay and atheist membership is such an important defining characteristic of the BSA that it deserves to be mentioned in the introductory paragraph. I suppose one could say that the BSA has long maintained that Scouts should be "reverent," i.e. adhere to traditional American fuzzy deism; and has "clean," i.e. adhere to traditional sexual morality. But I don't think this has been a major preoccupation of most scoutmasters in most troops at most times. Dpbsmith 12:37, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it belongs in the intro. I just found the edit before mine to be excessive. --Jiang 20:29, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It also wasn't factually accurate, as the Learning-for-Life and Exploring Divisions of the BSA don't have any religious or sexual orientation requirements.  Those divisions (for 14-21 year old boys and girls) allows the units to make such decisions for their own membership. Gentgeen 21:12, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: I've never heard of A Scout is clean having anything to do with sexual morality. I'd always read it as not covered in dirt. --Habap 14:14, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither have I, but sadly, I think the BSA is paying for this issue right now. From what I heard, the Government cannot fund the 2009 Jamboree. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:09, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Usually, Scouts assume that the Oath's morally straight has something to do with this, but since the Oath was written before straight was used to mean not homosexual, that also is not the case. --Habap 18:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

text: 'Clean' means much more than 'not covered in dirt'.  (This came up in one of my Boards of Review, I think.)  It includes, among other things that I've forgotten, cleanliness of thought and speech, for instance, avoiding swearwords.  I think it could also be legitimately (but not unequivocally) construed to oppose homosexuality. --Smack (talk) 02:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Perhaps; perhaps not.  Some important points (i.e. BSA vs. Dale) apply to membership disputes in general, rather than to any specific controversy.  However, the section is certainly long enough that some of the details relating to particular issues could be split off into subections. --Smack (talk) 23:21, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: The BSA does try to keep out atheists.  See http://www.scoutingforall.org/aaic/2002021201.shtml. Nereocystis 18:53, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not an atheist, but if I were, I would have serious issues with swearing duty to something I don't believe exists.  If you were asked to take upon yourself a duty to the Great Randazzo, would you refuse? --Smack (talk) 02:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I became an agnostic while in scouts, but stayed closeted. A bit uncomfortable. Swearing an oath to a being I didn't believe in did feel pretty dishonest and not in keeping with the overall tradition of scouting. Not sure what happens if an openly atheistic or agnostic boy or prospective leader tries to join up. crazyeddie 06:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Balance and proportion on the gay/atheist issue

message: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7326932/
Time to start forming a new section.
:Not really.  First of all, though by all indications the allegations are likely true, he hasn't been convicted.  Second, an incident involving a single Scouter, no matter how high-placed, is not significant on the scale of the BSA, which includes tens of thousands of adult leaders. --Smack (talk) 00:52, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: if he in indicted, it might make him a candidate for his own article and this info could exist in it. Cavebear42 17:57, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He pled guilty to a charge of possession and distribution of child pornography on 30 March 2005. I doubt that owning child porn and being a Scouter would in itself be worthy of an article. - Nunh-huh 06:13, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Nunh-huh on this one. Being a Scout leader and having child porn does not relate to each other at all. IMHO, I do not think the leader who got busted even deserves an article, since this is pretty much all he was known for. Plus, in a few months from now, his name will cross very few minds. Zscout370 (talk) 23:27, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Nunh-huh and ZScout.  Johntex 17:39, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boy Scout director charged with having child porn 

message: I added a paragraph about some stuff that happened back in the 1980s were there was, for lack of a better term, a "wave" of incidents where scouts were getting beat up on campout trips by older scouts.  I was actually at Goshen when the beating occurred, it was in 1987 at I think Olmstead Camp.  I'd be interested in hearing of efforts the BSA has made in the past twenty years to prevent such occurences since I know now they take it pretty seriously (or at least should). -Husnock 21:44, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: When I was in the scouts, the leaders took everything seriously. The training they take, along with the booklet about sexual harasment that every scout compeltes, in my view, has curbed many of these events from taking place. Now, I just think scouting's main concern is to keep their morals and funding intact. Sadly, my dad also thinks scouting has become like a day care, almost. Some call the BSA "Baby Sitters of America." Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:54, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Z. Even at the camp staff level as youth, we were strictly instructed on youth protection protocols just in case another scout disclosed to us that there was something afoul.  And Scouting has become a day care.  My father's almost given up on the Chairman of the Eagle Board of Review position that he took a few years ago because Scoutmasters and other adults won't do their part in developing young men to Eagle potential, they just refer it all to him and let him play the bad guy.  Anyways, that's not the point.  The BSA has done a pretty good job of stamping physical incidents out, but IMHO, at the cost of a lot more.  KC9CQJ 08:57, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a mistake to say that "Scouting has become" something.  It's a highly decentralized organization.  Every troop is different.  I can say that my troop has gone a little way down the road to spinelessness, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a day care.  And it certainly has no lack of adult leaders who motivate Scouts to excel.  --Smack (talk) 05:51, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Violence in the Scouts

message: Personally, other than the organization being based in Texas and in the Dallas area, do you guys think the BSA article should have been categorized in those categories? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:19, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Texas Categorization 

message: Isn't pinewood derby primarily a Cub Scout (as opposed to a Boy Scout) activity?  If I'm right (which I am, unless my Cub Scout Pack and my Boy Scout Troop both did things wrong), it should be mentioned in the Cub Scout article rather than here.  --Myles Long 21:58, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite right. I have moved it. Thanks. Grika 00:05, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: pinewood derby

message: The James E. West linked from this page is a different person. That link goes to the mayor of Spokane, Washington, who was not alive in 1911. I'm not sure what to change the link to, though. Mr2001 06:00, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But, oddly enough, the politician was also a Scout leader.  I've disambigged it. --Smack (talk) 02:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  James E. West 

message: Hey guys, the Boy Scouts announced that four leaders from Alaska were killed at the National Jamboree today. See http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050726/ap_on_re_us/jamboree_deaths Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:31, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem 

message: I think that we should not have a general list of former Scouts.  Out of (I'd guess) two to three hundred million boys who have grown up in the United States in the past one hundred years, one hundred million were Scouts at one time or another.  Such a list threatens to immediately become egregiously long, and to contain very little useful information whatsoever.  (The list of Eagle Scouts, though, we should keep). --Smack (talk) 04:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of alumni 

message: The UUA has specified that they prefer "acceptance" to "tolerance."  They believe that "tolerance" conveys a negative message, as in "oh, i can tolerate them."  Therefore I changed this.Veritos 21:50, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UUA + Tolerance 

message: See Talk:Girl Scouts of the USA#Discrimination against "Infidels" and Bisexual/Gay people:. --Mistress Selina Kyle 19:26, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrimination against "[[Infidel]]s" and [[Bisexual]]/[[Gay]] people: 

message: Faith (a scout is reverent) is only a part of scouting, thus to note in the lead-in that it is "faith based" is rather misleading.  See the creeds section for a full list of "what scouting is about".  Scouting does not recognize any particular denomination or brand of faith as "official", thus it does not typify a faith based organizaion. I know that as a member of the BSA, I do have a POV here, but I do not see that non-scouts see the BSA as a orginization that is primarily religious in nature.  --Gadget850 23:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: True.  In my experience, one could get very far without any faith at all.  I had to indicate a religious preference on my application form, but that was practically the last I heard about it until I went for Eagle.  However, troops vary widely; in Texas they may do things differently. --Smack (talk) 20:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Faith based