Talk:Flying Spaghetti Monster/Archive 1

message: I would like to add that those who chose not to believe are known as "Anti-Pastafarians," or 
"Anti-Pastans" for short.
----
I think its ok for the FSM to be here; wikipedia should allow anything that exists to be documented here, as long as it is impartial Doug1984
This is really cute, but it isn't encyclopedic.  Cleanup, please? blahpers 02:12, 2005 August 5 (UTC)
:The Flying Spaghetti Monster is being proposed as a subject to be taught alongside Evolution and Intelligent Design.  I'm not sure it's noteworthy yet, and wikipedia is not a place to make things worthy, but the meme may catch on.  If this should be cleared out, it should be via VfD so there's time to determine whether it's big enough or not.  Usually, this would deserve a nonsense speedy delete, but it does have some notoriety, so I'm on a fence. - Chairboy 02:13, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Flying Spaghetti Monster is just a revamp of the old Invisible Pink Unicorn idea, although in it's original form more amusing, and much of that IPU page could be rewritten for a page on the FSM. You could even keep the current article which I'm sure was written by a fan for the Uncyclopedia parody site, but push it down after a more considered intro. Zuytdorp Survivor 02:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The story has gotten national media attention and it's been mentioned on countless websites.  I think Chairboy's wrong on this one - it's not nonsense, or not anymore.  The article doesn't hurt anything, even though most of the information on the FSM itself can be found on the website that spawned the fad. -  Imdwalrus 21:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Where would one place an article about being abducted by the FSM? It could and probably  has happened, and if so, merits a place alongside those abducted by aliens and such. I don't want to lose any more sleep over this, so someone please make a suggestion.--Blockhead 23:05, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old talk 

message: Have begun cleaning up the article. -Loren 02:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work!  blahpers 02:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: Sitting here in Sydney, I just read an article about Henderson and his satirical submission in New Scientist magazine (Aug 6 05, Australasian edition, Vol 187/2511 page 56). Granted the actual content of his so-called 'religion' is obviously satirical, but his attempts to have his religion given due consideration by the KSBE are certainly noteworthy, insofar as they challenge the non-scientific premise of creationism (and/or Intelligent Design). He seems to have obtained offers of legal assistance to mount his challenge to get FSMism recognised by the KSBE.
I think this has progressed beyond just an internet meme, and it certainly is sufficiently noteworthy to get a spot in WP. Just my $0.02 Manning 05:27, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
:It would be easier to determine notability, based on the article, if someone who knows something about this would 1-cite sources (the one you mention sounds good) and 2-give some context with dates. When did this start? -Aranel ("Sarah") 00:13, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noteworthiness 

message: I think that we can start up on the history or the FSM as a suppressed religion whos' latest prophet is Bobby Henderson.
I suggest that we can start with the Sistine Chapel Ceiling fresco cover up by Pope Julius II leading to his demise a year later as starters.
I'll try seeding that one right now.. keeping it if the artists work can be approved for incorporation into the history
for now I'll assume it's OK since we've gotten the Ok for the FSM rendering.
:Regarding the "history", I'm afraid that's something that's better suited for Uncyclopedia. We're aiming for a factual account here, not a joke article. -Loren 23:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: HISTORY

message: The "Schisms" section on SPAM. Is it spam?
:Seems to be a subsection of a site for some "open source religion" called "Yoism". I am tempted to classify it as spam since it seems built to direct readers to their main site but would appreciate it if more editors took a look and offered their opinions. -Loren 23:03, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  SPAM 

message: Someone who knows how to put in pictures might want to think about this picture.
:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/Alyeska/noodly2.jpg
Alyeska 05:21, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Picture 

message: It should be made clear that the dictionary definition of the term "Myth" does not imply or impugn the validity of that to which it is attached.  Christianity is a myth.  The stories of the vikings are myths.  Basically, any ancient story is a myth.  When in doubt, look it up in your Funk and Wagnalls!
:Myth- A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
:: -- The American Heritage Dictionary
- Proud myth-believer Ayeroxor 18:49, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
* "An improvable story, almost always including incredible or miraculous events, that has no specific reference point or time in history."
www.organtransplants.org/glossary.html
* "something not true, fiction, or falsehood. A truth disguised and distorted."
www.carm.net/atheism/terms.htm
* "An ill-founded belief, usually based on limited experience, given uncritical acceptance by members of a group, especially in support of existing or traditional practices and institutions."
www.gecdf.com/diversity/glossary.html
I think, based on the popular definition of the word myth as something that is definately not true, to describe any serious modern religion that a signifigant number of people believe in as a myth would definately not be NPOV. Whether or not you agree that such-and-such a religion actually is a myth, you have to think about it objectively, and realize that words mean things to most people. --Nerd42 16:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Myth" vs. "Belief" 

message: Congratulations folks, this article is being featured on Boing Boing. Expect a lot of new visitors and possibly increased vandal attacks. -Loren 08:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incoming 

message: I think this is exactly the sort of topics that make wikipedia so valuable.  I've seen this meme referenced once in awhile, and here comes wikipedia with a clear concise explanation.
I'm just curious what makes FSMism "worthy" while Universism, a religion with 9000 signed members and numerous media references (see the list here: http://www.universism.org/) not valid? Our group was deleted for not being noteworthy enough, but a parody religion, with far fewer professed members and less media notoriety is worthy of an article. Can anyone explain this? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_undeletion/Universist_Movement for the Universism deletion debate. G. Alex Janevski
:FSM is generally regarded as worthy for its role in the ID controversy.  While I would not have deleted Universism, it has had far less impact outside of the religion. Hope that this helps. --Apyule 01:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A little late, but I'll just note that the claim that FSM has "less media notoriety" than Universism is a highly questionable claim.  I've never encountered Universism or any reference to it "in the wild" and I think its followers are still not grasping the distinction between "we should be notable" and "we are". -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worthiness 

message: http://www.blogsnow.com/bnxwqq
:"Most popular" in the minds of whom?  The same site says the article Wikipedia is only linked to 3 times, and I know there are more links to this site than that.  --Ardonik.talk()* 19:53, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
::Most linked to by recent blog entries. FSM is a current event, WP is not. --Zetawoof 06:41, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: It is the most popular wikipedia entry right now

message: Not sure why this section was removed:
:Purpose
:The aim of parody is to heap ridicule upon the very idea of permittting the intelligent design theory to enjoy the same standing as the materialistic theory of evolution.
Wasn't this the purpose of the parody? Based on the fact that the originator of the spag monster corresponded with board members on the defeated side of the issue.... Uncle Ed 19:39, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
*This section was removed because it repeated what was said in the article's first sentence. User:Bbpen 08:19, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  purpose 

message: As this mythos develops, where should documentation and discussion of the expansion take place? I for one see a whole expansion explaining elements of the universe under this mythos. For instance, "Space is clearly cold because the FSM requires refrigeration to keep his noodly appendages fresh and flexible". I also appreciate the explanations of string theory that I have seen that tie in with this mythos. Shoud these items be in the Wiki, or on a seperate web site? - bcRIPster 16:46, August 24, 2005 (MST)
: Uncyclopedia, or somewhere else.  Not here, please.  --Ardonik.talk()* 06:58, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
:Not here yet. If the mythos ends up sticking around and turning into "official dogma", it may be worth mentioning it in the future. We're in the business of reporting what transpires, neither encouraging nor discouraging it. -Loren 07:29, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Where should mythos expansion occur?

message: I removed the clause ", at which point Henderson began selling thousands of dollars' worth of shirts and other knick-knacks" because User:208.201.238.222 cited no source to indicate that it was more than supposition. Bbpen 01:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was irritated when it was posted on my homepage references to the sale of tshirts etc. and thanking Wiki for promoting the sale.Kyle Andrew Brown 11:48, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Commercialism

message: Should a section be devoted to significant interventions of the Flying Spaghetti Monsterism? For example, his merciful act of saving gay revelers from the sorrow and misery of Hurricane_Katrina? REF: Repent America
: No, we're focused on facts here. Please take the jokes to Uncyclopedia.-Loren 02:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Acts of the FSM? 

message: Editors have been removing the media links as they die. I'd suggest converting them instead to citations (ie, "Headline," Publication, Date) as they go. The list will remain an traceroute of the meme as it climbed the mainstream media, interesting not just to those curious about FSM but of those concerned with internet memes in general. Bbpen 18:50, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Media coverage links

message: Some people are calling our religion a parody, claiming that the signs we have seen are false.
Proclaim your belief and add your signature below! 
* I honestly believe --EKBK 19:20, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried upholding what you said are the facts (that FSM began as a parody of ID but later took on a life of it's own), but Bbpen said (in his edit summary) that "articles should begin with a statement of what the subject is."  If people honestly belive in FSM, then it currently is a belief, not a parody.  According to Bbpen, what it is should come first, presumably followed by how it started.  --Go Cowboys 14:24, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I admit that it does seem to be a touchy subject here. People can consider FSM to be a satire, a legitimate religion, or both. I suppose one similar subject to consider when writing this would be the Jedi census phenomenon where you also have a large group of people pledge allegence to a fictional religion. This whole thing may turn into a debate over what constitutes a true religion. -Loren 00:50, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop misspelling its! lysdexia 14:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  People who honestly believe in FSM 

message: "Global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct consequence of the decline in numbers of pirates since the 1800s."
I know of a lot of entertainment industry executives who would argue with that. --Damian Yerrick 20:18, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: existence lysdexia 08:11, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Decline'' in pirates? 

message: I just added that Venganza is Spanish for revenge. Venganza.org is the name of the site so I thought that might be relevant. --Revolución (talk) 23:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Venganza

message: Origin of the Novel Species Noodleous doubleous: Evidence for Intelligent Design by Dr. Thomas Schneider.  I was going to add it to the external links, but it might not fit the request in the HTML comment.  Should this be linked to by the main article? MichaelSH 19:56, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like just a joke page to me, not encyclopedically interesting. Bbpen 20:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: what point is made with FSM that wasn't made much better with the Invisible Pink Unicorn? It seems like a cheap rehash of the idea by a higschooler. That's a little bit sad, because it cheapens better parodies by associations, but there's not much to do about it of course. Except letting Pastafarians choose between conversion to IPU and the sword, of course :) 21:19, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Thomas D. Schneider article 

message: I've been reverting this link as spam, but this same user keeps adding it every morning.  I wanted to see if I can get another editor to make a ruling as to this link's inclusion in this article.  
*(humor) Lodge of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
In particular, it seemed to be just a couple pics of this guy and some poorly written text trying to make fun of Freemasons.  It also seems to conflict with the direction given in the links section:
: Please don't add links here unless they shed light on the role FSM plays in the Intelligent Design debate.
So, anyone have comments? --Syrthiss 13:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure that anything I read on that site isn't already covered on vengaza or here, so I don't see that it adds anything.  Its italian because the ip address ends with ".it". --Syrthiss 15:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian Masonic FSM Lodge Link 

message: FSM is a joke religion and that's an indisputable fact. We went through this in Invisible Pink Unicorn long ago - you can read all about it in the talk archives. Andre (talk) 03:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't be silly. 

message: I feel that the name of this article should be Flying Spaghetti Monster, not Flying Spaghetti Monsterism. The former generates about 576,000 hits on Google, whereas the latter gets 126,000 hits. And "Flying Spaghetti Monsterism" sounds clumsy to me, because the word "Monsterism" is confusing until someone realizes what it refers to (at first I didn't understand what a Monsterism was). This "cult" is all about its central figure, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and renaming the article to remove the "ism" would bring it in line with the title of Invisible Pink Unicorn. Would anyone mind if I change the article name? - Brian Kendig 19:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Enochlau 05:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I have always thought so, too.  The -ism is awkward and didactic, though I understand the reason (religion vs god). Cleduc 06:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, the article is hardly about the monster though, but about the -ism surrounding it. Would more people care to weigh in? -- Ec5618 10:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  As clumsy and unnatural as the term "Flying Spaghetti Monsterism" may seem, and no matter how few Google results it yields, it is nevertheless the official name of the "religion", coined by its "founder". The article describes the entire phenomenon that includes the open letter to the Kansas Board, the public's reaction to it and related developments. It certainly does not centrally discuss the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Thus, I believe it should be renamed back to Flying Spaghetti Monsterism. — Timwi 16:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name? 

message: I'm sorry, but where does it say (preferably in the original letter) that the reward is would be payed in Intelligently Designed Currency?
We're going to need a source for that. I won't revert yet, as I've seen no source claiming the reward would be in USD either. 
Still, a source. We need one. -- Ec5618 10:38, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  USD 

message: http://www.brainblog.com/cms/scientists_engineer_bacteria_to_create_living_photographs2480
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scienceblog/66259267/
Incorporate as appropriate. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:48, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evidence of FSM's influence and notability 

message: Please specify that the term ‘public schools’ is US specific. 78.143.208.140 (talk) 20:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: An alternative could be to link "public schools" to state school. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 14:51, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with your suggestion. M.Bitton (talk) 20:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: changed the term entirely, for clarity's sake cogsan • (give me attention) • (see my deeds) 20:45, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed it further, via this edit: . Per the next few sentences of the page, this was about a school controversy in the US. Nobody in the US calls them "state schools" (which sounds, to American ears, like government-operated boarding schools). So I changed it back to "public schools", but I kept the link to state school and added "in the United States", to provide the needed clarity to non-US readers. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2023