Talk:Leon Rupnik

message: In my opinion, the quoting was excessive. I would suggest editing the material and creating a wikiquote. Viator slovenicus (talk) 23:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes 

message: Smith2006, you will have noticed that I have removed your tag. For the purposes of us having a reasonable discussion, would you be kind enough to explain what exactly it is about this article that you think, from your obviously highly-informed and neutral standpoint, is not NPOV? Apologies if it is not immediately clear to me, but what should be changed, and why? Many thanks in advance for taking the time to set out your points. Regards, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 15:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag - question to Smith2006 

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thread_title: File:Leon Rupnik.gif Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: A recent contribution wrote that the Home Guard swore "oaths of allegiance ... to the SS and the Leader of Greater Germany". This has already been discussed extensively here, where the oath text is available ("... that I will stand in common struggle with the German armed forces, which stand under the command of the leader of Greater Germany"). It is clearly an oath to fight in allegiance with the German forces, stating that the German forces are commanded by Hitler. It should not be paraphrased into an "oath of allegiance ... to Hitler". Doremo (talk) 08:03, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's the case, then don't delete the whole edit, which seems to me to be reliably sourced, just adjust the information about the oath (using the reliable source(s) you are using for the interpretation of the oath that you have outlined) and retain the rest. The inclusion of the speech text isn't UNDUE, so there is no reason why it shouldn't be retained. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 08:37, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, as I noted in that discussion (which was hardly comprehensive) Tomasevich 2001, pp. 124-125 says "the Home Guards took a solemn oath to fight together with the SS and German police under the leadership of the Fuhrer against the Communist guerillas and their allies". That sounds like an oath to Hitler to me. I'll look for other sources. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 08:40, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is the misreading of the participle (...bom v skupnem boju z nemško oboroženo silo, stoječo...). It is a feminine instrumental singular, thus unambiguously meaning "... with the German forces, which stand ...". If the 'standing' referred to the oath-taker himself, the participle would have a different ending. Doremo (talk) 09:15, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

text: This source  says "the Slovenian Home Guards' oath of fidelity to Hitler". At the very least, the exact nature of the oath is contested, and sources vary on it. This should be reflected here. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 08:59, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If we can't agree on how to paraphrase it, then just quote it: an oath of "common struggle with the German armed forces, which stand under the command of the leader of Greater Germany". If, as part of NATO, the Slovenian armed forces pledged to fight "together with the American armed forces, which stand under the command of the president of the United States", nobody would call that a loyalty oath to Trump, would they? Doremo (talk) 09:07, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, no. We go with what the reliable sources say, not your personal translation of the alleged original text. In the reliable sources in English that I have looked at it is clearly contested, so that is how we reflect it on Wikipedia. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 09:17, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a "personal translation" that the participle is feminine and applies to the armed forces. It's simply a grammatical fact. Doremo (talk) 09:34, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

text: I have no objection to the oath being quoted in full. The above does not contain the inaccuracy of the paraphrase. To suggest minor improvements: "I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful, courageous, and obedient to my superiors, and that in the joint struggle with the German armed forces, which stand under the command of the leader of Greater Germany, SS troops, and police against bandits and communism, as well as its allies, I will conscientiously fulfill my duties for my Slovenian homeland as part of a free Europe. I am also willing to sacrifice my life for this fight. So help me God." Doremo (talk) 18:02, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the reliable source for these two translations? Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 22:34, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven’t yet found a good published English translation. Gregor Kranjc has one, but his translation says “under the command of the leaders of Great Germany”, when all Slovene sources, including the one in the newspaper Slovenec from the day after, clearly have the singular, i.e. “the leader of Great Germany”. He also unnecessarily changes the order of some sub-clauses, which changes the emphasis somewhat from the original. I translated using Google translate, with minor fixes. Then there is the interpretation of the oath, and some historians clearly see it as an oath to Hitler Thhhommmasss (talk) 23:48, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, given Kranjc's is in English, and given he is an academic, specialises in Slovene history and the book is specifically about Slovene collaboration, then we should use him as the source verbatim, with no amendments by any of us, regardless of what we think it should say. Because we use secondary reliable sources, not our own interpretations. I note that his translation is footnoted, so it would be useful to know what footnote 30 says the source is, but I can't see it in preview on Google Books (it is probably on page 280). If someone has a full copy of Kranjc, it would help to know that information. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 00:41, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case I suggest Tomasevich's summary, since he is certainly a Reliable Source, and he gets it right, while Kranjc makes at least 1 obvious mistake 01:10, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with that, but if we are going to quote the oath, it needs to be verbatim from an English source like Kranjc. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 01:31, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I updated oath info using Tomasevich Thhhommmasss (talk) 01:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I tweaked the grammar and added a link. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 02:06, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oath 

message: It would be interesting to know if General Rupnik was perhaps the father of Lidija Rupnik, Olympic gymnast from the 1936 Berlin Summer Olympics, as well as 7th-place finisher at the 1938 World Championships.  Lidija was born in Trieste about the time that General Rupnik might have been stationed there, as well as where he had studied when he was a youth.QuakerIlK (talk) 09:13, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Rupnik is a rather common surname in Slovenia. Lidija Rupnik's father was Leopold Rupnik from Črni Vrh (see page 15 here). Doremo (talk) 10:48, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What a wonderful document, Doremo.  Thank you so much for sharing!  I don't understand any of the Serbo-Croatian languages, although I can barely read Russian, but with the help of Google translate, perhaps I can find out some very interesting information from what you just shared with me.  Cheers and sincerely...QuakerIlK (talk) 16:45, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

text: The family grave is shown here. Lidija's father Leopold (1881–1960) is listed under the nickname Polde. Doremo (talk) 17:15, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:   Relation to [[Lidija Rupnik]]?