Talk:Siege of Krujë (1466–1467)

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First Siege of Krujë (1450) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 09:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Siege of Krujë (1450) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 02:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: I propose to rely to more than one source while writing this article. Here is one that may be good one.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:02, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional source 

message: I recognize that this article may raise some controversy. Please note that whatever is said is taken directly from the sources. Many describe the massacres in a much more gruesome way than what I have included as I have tried to avoid this. Furthermore, I am not trying to push any political or nationalistic agendas; I'm just stating what sources say.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quick note 

message: This map is used in the text of the article with description: "Main Albanian towns during the 15th century".
I noticed many towns which do not belong to Albania (Peja, Prizren, Tetovo, Manastir (Bitola), ....) but to Macedonia, Kosovo or some other region.
I propose to remove this map from the text of the article until mistakes are corrected in order to avoid misleading of the readers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:55, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Or you could just rewrite the description.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:31, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map of Main Albanian towns during the 15th century 

message: *"Siege of Krujë" -Llc 14 -
*"Siege of Kruja" -Llc 12
*"Siege of Croya" -Llc 26
*"Siege of Croia" -Llc 76 -, but this result includes many old sources. 
-- Takabeg (talk) 03:11, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it would be a big problem to move it to Croia. I asked for the same for Albulena.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:28, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Is there any specific reason why is this issue still unresolved?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Here is a source which claims that Skanderbeg refused to stay in Palazzo Venezia and decided to reside in palazzo that was later named after him, Palazzo Scanderbeg. I propose to double check the sources about the palace he resided during his stay in Rome, because there are other articles supporting the information he resided in the palace Scanderbeg.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed it.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Maybe it is better to use current name of the palace (Palazzo Venezia) instead of the old name Palazzo di San Marco?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palazzo Venezia or Scanderbeg Palazzo 

message: COA used in this article has significant issues explained here and here.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  COA 

message: Below is a list of some issues which resolving might help improvement of this article.
Possible inaccuracies
# If Babinger is right when estimate the size of the Ottoman army to 30.000, then Mehmed did not leave Albania with his main army (but only with 25%) if he left Balaban with 23,000 soldiers.
#" the Turks could march against Bosnia, Serbia, Dalmatia, Negroponte, or Albania" Again Turks marching ... but in this case against Serbia (? Serbia was captured by the Ottomans in 1459, seven years before this event), (Bosnia in 1463, three years before this event) and again of course Albania (which significant part of the territory already belonged to the Ottomans for decades). Wikilinks are leading to the modern day republics of Serbia and Bosnia.
# Elbasan concerned not only the Albanians, but also the Venetians who feared for their possession in Albania as Durazzo lay only 30 miles (48 km) away - Today, when there are modern roads, the shortest route between Durres and Elbassan is 83 km, or more, depending on the route.
# Venice reported to Hungary that Mehmed had offered peace and was willing to accept it. Hungary also opted for peace, but Mehmed only sought peace with Venice in order to isolate Skanderbeg and thus peace was not signed.  - It is not so big problem because of this assertions are not referenced. The problem is that it seems to contradict to what Setton says about the same thing. According to Setton, it was totally the opposite. Venice wanted peace, but Mehmed refused it by requesting too much for peace (Venice to pay him yearly tributes among other things) - page 287.
# The number of the Ottoman troops who participated in this siege was 30,000 according to the Babinger (page 252. The same number is in the existing version of the article about Skanderbeg.
# According to Babinger, and "probably as early as February" "piched camp outside Kruje". The article says June?
# According to Babinger,  Balaban came to Albania before Mehmed (probably February). The article says they came together in June (Mehmed had marched into Albania with Ballaban Badera under his command)?
# According to Marin Barleti, Skanderbeg's main biographer, Skanderbeg had placed 4,400 men under Tanush Thopia. Along with them were placed Venetian infantry under Baldizar Perduzzi and 200 Neapolitan marksmen. - Venetian infantry (Babinger says 1,000) and Napolitan marksmen (200) together with 4,400 men under Thopia equals 5,600. Infobox says 4,400?
# According to Babinger, the commander of the garrison was Baldizar Perduzz (Baldassare Perducci). This information corresponds with the Ottoman version of the main reason for the attack on Skanderbeg's (Venetian) stronghold.
Unclear
# The fortress especially worried Venice since Elbasan was constructed on the banks of the Shkumbin River which would allow the Ottomans to send ships into the Adriatic and threaten Venetian colonies. - This sentence does not make much sense. In 1466 Ottomans already had Vlore under their control for 50 years. Why would they need Shkumbin River to send ships into the Adriatic?
# against the Ottoman Empire - not only against Ottoman Empire. Skanderbeg fought against Venetian Republic also, not to mention his Italian campaign and clashes with Dukagjini clan.
# , defeating them in battle multiple times, - not only defeating. From the start of his struggle he was defeated many times and gradually lost control of the territory and castles.
# He organized a timar in eastern Albania to strangle Skanderbeg's domains. - A timar? Numerous timars existed in eastern Albania much before 1466. Timars were part of the sanjaks, so there is no need to mention only one timar in eastern Albania because readers could be mislead to believe that other timars in eastern Albania did not participate in struggle against Skanderbeg.
#Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) should be explained because it shows a wider picture of the events and provide a basis for the Ottoman version of the events. It is very important to emphasize one simple fact: During this Ottoman-Venetian war territory of Albania became one of the main battlefields.()
#The Ottoman side emphasized that the main reason for Ottoman campaigns against Skanderbeg was his "breaking of faith" and allowing a Venetian forces to garrison in Kruje. Ottoman forces in Albania were threatened by them and because of that treat Ottomans organized campaigns against Skanderbeg after 1464.(). The article about Skanderbeg's incursion into Ottoman territory contains information about Balaban being appointed as governor of Ohrid, instead of Şeremet (Ballaban had replaced Şeremet as the commander in Ohrid after the latter fell out of favor with the sultan).
#The information that Balaban was sanjakbey of the Sanjak of Ohrid is important and should be presented in the article. The existing text ( Mehmed, sensing the weakness in his frontier, assigned Ballaban Badera as commander, replacing Şeremet. or Mehmed had marched into Albania with Ballaban Badera under his command) is misleading and confusing and uninitiated reader could get impression that Şeremet or Ballaban came to Albania from outside of Albania as commanders of the Ottoman armies. In fact, they were already present in Albania because part of the territory of Albania, with substantial population of ethnic Albanians, was the important part of their sanjak. They had important position of sanjakbeys of the Sanjak of Ohrid. As any other Ottoman sanjakbey they were obliged to recruit soldiers in their sanjak and to participated in war near their region.
#Both Setton and Babinger in their works presented on this page, emphasize information that Mehmed II plundered and destroyed area around Durres (part of Albania Veneta) before he left Albania. That is important information that should be presented in the article because it provides necessary context of this siege within larger Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479).
#June event: "Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania...Skanderbeg had remained in Albania, however, but he had sent many inhabitants of Krujë to Italy as refugees in twelve ships. With them, he sent his wife, Donika, and his son, John. ."....August event: "On 16 August, around the time that Elbasan was finished,... Venetian faith in Skanderbeg's resistance began to subside,..Since the Signoria still had not delivered its promised aid, Skanderbeg sent his son John to Venice...John returned to Albania empty-handed"...The voyage of this 12 year old boy should be clarified.
#Last weeks of 1466 - During the last weeks of the year in Albania there was no fighting ... Mehmed launched a campaign against the Venetian possessions in Albania to pressure the Republic to accept peace or ceasefire...On Christmas Eve, Paul invited Skanderbeg to a ceremony - Very confusing. There was no fighting and Mehmed launched a campaign against Venetians (although he left Albania months ago and his forces were busy besieging Kruje). According to the above mentioned sources written by Setton and Babinger, Mehmed attacked Venetian possessions in Albania during the summer of 1466 not during the last weeks on 1466. If he left in August 1466 the only one who could launch a campaign against the Venetian possessions in Albania was Ballaban. And he was besieging Kruje. This needs to be clarified.
#  According to the Babiner, the commander of the besieged forces was Venetian officer, Baldazarre Perducci. He is totally forgotten in the infobox. Instead, there is only Moneta mentioned on the bottom of the list, although he was not in the besieged fortress but in relief forces. Maybe it would be a good idea to divide information about besieged and relief forces and their commanders, like in other siege articles about Skanderbeg.
# February 1467 - This amount had not been gathered, however, and Paul thus offered Skanderbeg 2,300 ducats. - Offered or granted? What happened with that offer and 2,300 ducats?
# February 1467 - Ottoman force sent to defeat the League of Lezhë definitively, however, had been defeated. - What force, who defeated it and where?
# Spring 1467 - The once distant Albanian nobles, among them Dukagjini, were now convinced of their impending end and allied themselves with Skanderbeg. - If forces of other Albanian nobles were distant and if they allied themselves with Skanderbeg only in spring 1467, what is the reason for emphasizing that one of belligerents was League of Lezhë? Who (besides Venetians) fought against Ottoman Empire until April 1467?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of some issues 

message: Siege of Krujë (1466—1467)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I was going to do that.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming? 

message: Per this explanation.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  League of Lezhe did not exist after 1450