Talk:Sławomir Rawicz

message: The Guardian obituary was written by a friend of Rawicz', and is therefore not NPOV, and should not be used to argue the veracity of The Long Walk, IMO.
:'After the centre closed, in the early 1970s he became my technician - I was a lecturer - on the architectural ceramics course at Trent Polytechnic (now Nottingham Trent University) school of art and design. Our friendship developed across the ensuing decades, but a heart attack forced him into early retirement in the mid-1970s.'
Econrad 01:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "''The Guardian'' seems to support it"

message: I'm no expert on Rawicz, so I don't want to jump into an edit here, but I have a suggestion for removing the appearance of bias.  I suggest one section that gives Rawicz's version of events, without any editorial comment except perhaps an introductory note to say the veracity of the account is disputed and more information is given regarding the dispute later in the article.  A second section would then go through all the points made about the lack of corroboration.
I also think you need citations to back up "no records have been found"; a citation of a news story where a journalist relates a failed attempt to locate some such records, for example.Mike Christie 02:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm concerned that any restructure of the article is going to lead to a more biased version. There are no records of any kind on Slavomir Rawicz prior to years after the second world war. There is no factual or evidence based case that can be made in favor of the book. There is no controversy about that. I would be in favor of a restructure that removed the entire (long) detailed account of the book in favor of a very brief summary followed by a material detailing the total lack of any evidence. But the idea of a restructure where the Rawicz story is told in long form as if it were truth followed by criticism seems itself biased. The most helpful thing for the page would be for someone to make a case why the story is believable or supported by evidence. 168.127.0.51 20:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm prepared to believe you, but I'd like to know what the sources are for your comments about the lack of evidence.  Has there been, for example, any documentary book done reviewing Rawicz's claims?  Or any newspaper articles that could be referenced? Mike Christie 22:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A source that comes to mind is the comments in Anne Applebaum's Gulag: a History which I believe won a pulitzer prize. I think the book contained notes to the effect that the book was discounted by most serious people. I dont have the book in front of me to provide the quotes. 205.188.116.204 02:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Applebaum book cites the respected researcher/director of the St. Petersburg gulag memorial (Veniamin Loffe) as saying that he had researched the records of the gulag looking for conformation of the story (he found none). The book then says that he engaged in correspondance/conversation with Rawicz and found his whole story unconvincing. Applebaum also claims "the Long Walk" bears a distinct resemblance to the Rudyard Kipling story "the man who was". 168.127.0.51 19:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a good start; I would suggest that you add a reference to this at the appropriate place in the article.  The "unconvincing" cite is marginal, but the story of the research failing to turn up confirmation is very much worth citing.  Mike Christie 19:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: A second source is Hugh Richardson's 1957 review of the book for the Himalayan Journal. Hugh Richardson was stationed in Tibet for many years (including during the war). In his article, he goes point by point after the errors with regard to the India/Tibet portions of the journey. Hugh Richardson was a top British official and expert on the affairs of Tibet for many years. Beyond the factual problems he points out with the book, he had never heard of the man or the story before the publication of "the long walk". If anyone would have heard the story in India, it would be expected that Hugh Richardson would have heard it. I'm working on a full citation for the source, but I suspect it will require a trip to London. There are other 1950s sources but they will also take time to locate. As far as Loffe, the actual cite would be that Loffe worked directly with Rawicz to help prove the story and walked away, as one of the foremost Russian experts in the gulag, with the impression that Rawicz had never been in the system. 168.127.0.51 22:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Hugh Richardson's just-mentioned 1957 review of The Long Walk in the Himalayan Journal is available online at:  http://www.himalayanclub.org/hj/20/15/reviews-23/   Wsjacobs (talk) 03:21, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for restructuring 

message: The well-known mountaineer Eric Shipton reviewed 'The Long Walk' in The Geographical Journal in 1956 (pp. 370-372). After summarizing the the story of the group's journey he writes: "Such a story should need no embellishment. A simple account of the facts could hardly fail to to absorb the interest of the most hardened armchair adventurer, to chill the heart of the least imaginative reader. The narrative is indeed presented with apparent restraint; its attractive modesty claims our sympathy and our tolerance. We are willing to make every allowance for memory clouded by time and suffering. Yet, throughout the book, there are so many improbable circumstances, so many geographical details which fail to match our knowledge of the areas travelled, that it is impossible to trace the boundary between fact and fantasy."
Here are the main issues Shipton discusses:
The journey between Tsangpo River and India: Shipton says that the Tsangpo, throughout its course, is never more than 100 miles from the main axis of the Himalayas and that the intervening country, being easy, can be crossed at any time and almost any place in six easy marches. However, in the book, where Rawicz says the group averaged 20 miles per day, it took them two months (end of January to end of March). Also, Shipton questions the claim that they encountered no inhabited areas during this time, declaiming any knowledge of such a wide uninhabited belt in the area.
The pass through which the Himalayan range was crossed is unidentifiable from the book's description. "Crossing the eastern Himalaya from north to south anywhere, one descends almost immediately, often in a matter of a few hours, into deep, heavily forested gorges." Shipton says that either they would have descended into very difficult territory that would have cut down their progress to 1 mile a day or they came down into an inhabited valley with a path and would have encountered some villages along the way to any motor road. Yet the book does not describe any contrast between an easy approach to the Himalayas with a descent into rugged territory, nor any striking change of scenery, nor any villages/habitation between crossing the pass and the encounter of the Indian troops on the road.
Water-deprivation: Shipton estimates that given the temperatures, humidity and physical activity of marching across the Gobi desert in summer a person would be incapacitated by 3 days and probably dead in 4 days without any water. Yet in the book the group marched 8 days with no water and some dried fish and all survived to reach an oasis, then marched 12 days with no water with two dying along the way which was followed by another 10 day, waterless march. The only extenuating circumstance being their eating of grilled snakes along the way.
Shipton also points out that if they had followed their original assumption of India being due south of Lake Baikal they would have reached the South China coast opposite Hainan, not India. However the book does not describe any deviations imposed on them by local obstacles that would have lead them to where they actually arrived. 
He ends the review wondering how Rawicz and his fellow prisoners survived ill-clothed in the march to Irkutsk in freezing temperatures, how the group missed the important highway between Urumchi and Lanchow which they must have crossed into to highlands of Tibet and which would have been carrying heavy traffic in 1941 (or, if they avoided it, why they didn't notice any signs of civilization like telegraph poles), and why, when in the middle of Tibet, they didn't seek help or direction from the elderly European missionary they met and conversed with. 
He finishes off with an apparently sarcastic paragraph (i) wondering how they could 'ruthlessly' hurl boulders directly into a gorge into which their friend had just fallen, (ii) saying that mountaineers would be interested in the 'novel' techniques they used  to negotiate overhanging crags on their journey across the Tibetan plateau,(iii) how they could have not encountered the Tibetan staple 'tsampa' and (iv) ridiculing the yeti encounter.
:I consider the entire route as shown in the book to be untrustworthy. I think its unliklely that they went through the Gobi because that would have been both foolish and certain death. There are however other desolate/arid regions they could have gone through. The excuse for not turning east in China has always been that they were afraid of being captured by the Chinese Communists and returned to the USSR. I find that difficult to accept in that none of the party would seem to have been worldly enough to know the facts of the civil war in China. I keep thinking that (if it happened) the sensible paths are all to the east of what the book shows. I don't think they came anywhere near Lhasa because the British carefully tracked every foreigner in Tibet and their presence would surely have been detected. 168.127.0.51 17:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shipton's review in The Geographical Journal 

message: A 30 minute documentary by Tim Whewell (formerly the BBC's Moscow correspondent) will be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 8pm this evening, unsurprisingly titled "The Long Walk".  BBC Radio programmes are usually downloadable from the website for a week after broadcast. 
There is also an article in today's Times -  - which says that "new evidence suggests that it is a work of fiction" ... "Records confirm that he was arrested in November 1939 but they also state that he was freed in 1941 under an amnesty given to Polish soldiers when the Soviet Union joined the Allies — and was healthy enough to re-enlist as a soldier the next day." -- ALoan (Talk) 11:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Radio 4

message: I've just updated the article to cover the new 2006 information on the subject. Afterward in looking at the article I think it could now be revamped in format. What I'm thinking about doing is separating out two sections for the period 1939 (after arrest) to 1942 (arrival in Palestine). One section would give the details of his life as per the Russian gulag records and the other would describe the account given in the long walk.
I would like to get any opinions on doing this before I actually revamp the article. I'll probably give it 2-4 weeks for comments.
12.96.162.45 23:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  updating the article 

message: I don't have the book with me, but I remember Rawicz saying that he was beaten by a guard (struck in the face with the butt of a pistol) and lost teeth in the sides of his mouth (I don't know the technical terms, but I mean the chewing surfaces). I've wondered but never heard anything about whether modern dental x-rays are available to show whether or not he was missing teeth in those areas. Tangentially related: he was supposed to have been burned on the backs of his hands by hot tar. Would it leave scars? Are there any photographs?
Continuing to check random things I recall from the book. Rawicz claims that he met a man with a watch, and that the watchmaker's name was Pavel Bure. Apparently the Bures did make expensive watches about the right time (up until about 1917) and the first 1914ish Bure watch I saw on the web clearly says "Pavel Bure" in Cyrillic. But, of course, he could have run into such a watch previously.
Other questions that come to my mind. Are there black snakes in the Gobi? Is the distinctive lower leg swelling symptom indicative of imminent death due to dehydration known? Are there any records of a captain (I think) Ushakov (I think) stationed at the prison camp in Siberia at the time?
:There is no controversy over him being a prisoner in the soviet union during the war and there may be truth in some of the early parts of the long walk. So even if there were physical evidence of torture, it doesn't prove anything with regard to the journey.
:The whole description of the Gobi and Tibet in the book has been controversial since the 1950s. Even Rawicz himself has said that the route published in the book is nothing more than a guess. From reconstructions based on the material in the book, the only way the journey makes sense is if his route was much further to the east than shown in the book. 
:Nobody has found a record of a Camp 303 as of yet. His history in the prison system is known now and its possible that a Ushakov may be found, but it might take a long time. 
:Beyond whats in the book, anyone who seriously looks into this has to deal with any number of additional conflicting statements made by Rawicz over the years. For example, he claimed in the 1950s in a letter to the Spectator that he returned to the Soviet Union in 1942 and re-joined the polish forces on Soviet soil. There are also private letters to various people which tell different stories. 63.3.5.129 06:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teeth 

message: Apparently 'The Long Walk' will be the main source for a film called "The Way Back" that will be written and directed by Peter Weir.  Lord of the Ping (talk) 22:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The press releases are not quite telling the whole story. Peter Weir is using several different books as inspiration for his film and Weir is not taking a stand (so far) for the truthfulness of "the long walk". 70.234.253.94 (talk) 10:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Movie

message: Can the name Slawomir be corrected, please?→81.154.107.131 (talk) 20:22, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of name 

message: I added a couple of articles I found. THe Outside one looks interesting. I haven't had a chance to look at it. The other one just seems to summarize the story. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Within the past month, the article was edited based on the claim that the work of the BBC on this topic constituted "weak evidence" and should therefore be discounted as "unproven". This is unacceptable for several reasons:
(1) No case is presented as to why the BBC material, which is sourced to physical documents in the Soviet Union and in the Polish Government in exile records in London, should be considered unreiable. Especially those written by Rawicz himself.
(2) There remains no proof in favor of the Rawicz story other than the words of the man himself in the book.
(3) The article should not take on a point of view that sourced and cited material from the BBC is false or not credible.
66.226.193.82 (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits and standards for sources 

message: Recently I re-read The Long Walk and was recommending it to a friend, when I decided to look up Sŀawomir Rawicz here. I was quite disappointed to learn that his book appears to have been mainly fictional.
A quick online search turned up a reference to Soviet records revealed in 2006 showing that Rawicz was released in 1941. But before I conclude that the book is fictional, I'd like to know if there are any Polish sources on this question. (I don't read Polish and can't check Polish Wiki myself.)
Djiękuje.  Sca (talk) 16:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Polish sourcse I'm aware of are from the military records of the government in exile. Those records consist of Rawicz's 1942 and after service history and matters related to his exit from the Soviet Union. Those records also came to light in 2006. There are no records (not one) that support Rawicz' account of events in 1942. 70.234.221.91 (talk) 01:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Polish sources?

message: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/05/16/the-greatest-escape-war-hero-who-walked-4-000-miles-from-siberian-death-camp-115875-21364916/
Is this account more credible?
"the incredible story of Witold Glinski's escape from the Russians across the Gobi desert and through the Himalayas to freedom in India.. a journey that took him 11 months"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Newschapmj1 (talk • contribs) 16:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The information so far released is utterly lacking in any detail. No proof beyond Glinski's claim that it happened has of yet been released. 174.46.28.58 (talk) 18:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative Walker? 

message: Peter Weir has not said he intends to make a film based on the life of Rawicz. His statements have been that he intends to create a fictional work inspired by several people including Rawicz. I've corrected the article accordingly. 174.46.28.58 (talk) 18:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peter Weir film 

message: "Hugh Levinson, "Walking the talk?" Monday, 30 October 2006, BBC News, UK"
This source is used to document the claims around Rupert Mayne. But it is incorrect. Rupert Mayne always carefully claimed that he interviewed three men in India in 1942 but he either was not aware or did not remember who their names were. The source claims that Mayne explicitly supported Rawicz' story which is not true. The BBC article presents no source in support and other sources do no support the claim either. Careful use should be made of this source in terms of making claims about what Mayne did or did not say. It would be better overall to find an earlier source for what he said. 75.20.226.33 (talk) 04:59, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  comments on one of the sources 

message: There's a review of the book by Sir John Squire in The Illustrated London News 1956 May 19, pg 548. CFLeon (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  review 

message: Substituted at 07:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: It is mentioned here on the discussion page that an article from the Spectator in 1956 places him in Iraq on April 10, 1942. Would that not confirm that he was in the Middle East before General Anders army reached there, and thus presumably escaped? It was my understanding that General Anders army did not reach the Middle East until roughly June-August 1942. Or am I mistaken? Someone please clarify this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard thayer (talk • contribs) 15:29, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does the 1956 Spectator article not confirm he was in the Middle East before General Anders army? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The long walk strikes me as implausible for one important reason. The escapees set off in spring and slaughtered a deer 'trapped by its antlers'. The problem is that deer don't wear antlers in spring. They are regrown every year in time for the October rut and are then cast off. Crawiki (talk) 07:31, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent tale