Talk:Bohemian Rhapsody/Archive 1

message: Bohemian Rhapsody was recently nominated to be promoted to good article status, but has unfortunately failed. Reasons for failing GA:
* Intro:
** "It was primarily composed on Freddie's Yamaha baby grand piano." Is not a good sentence, or a whole one for that matter. It doesn't fit in with the other content of the intro, it would be probably better suited in "Recording".
** Capitilize "Vinyl" of "vinyl record" in the infobox.
** " However, it was released as a single, and became a huge commercial success." should be merged into the "a capella" sentnece.
* Recording:
** Fixing the paragraphing! There's stray sentences random floating around.
** "(a process known as splicing)" No brackets! Prose this into the paragraph.
** Why is the equipment listed? No lists! 
* Structure and analysis:
** Change the title, it doesn't convey that you're talking about the song
** This section is actually good, but try to add more information, perhaps a picture of them singing in the a capella? 
** Explain the importance/difference of 7ths/keys/chords to non musicians
* Video
** Change the title, it's not informative 
** "it cost only £4500 to produce" compare to today's costs, compare between the two.
** Fix the "visual feedback" link
** "being double-tracked out of sync" ... which means?
** Prose both mini paragraphs into one
*** "often cited as "the first ever music promo video"." This should be referenced via inline citation, as well as lots of other things..
*** "Taken literally, this statement is unlikely to be.."  Merged this into to the previous sentence.
*** "rather than the BBC's generic dancers." Oh dear, I was wondering when POV was going to show.
* Popularity
** Clumsy writing
** "double-A single".. which is?
** Summarise the success in charts, does anyone care about Dutch taste?
** Re-organise last two paragraphs into the existing ones
* Trivia 
** Remove TV trivia, they're not very significant
** I would personally move information about the song onstage to it's own section, mainly because of it's higher significance compared to the other trivia (moving the reference of concerts from the introduction to this paragraph would also be an idea.)
** "The title does not appear anywhere within the words of the song." This link should be fixed: ie- not the whole sentence
* Cover Versions
** Clean up and remove POV and useless entries
* References
** Add lots more
** Use inline citation
** Add "URL Last Accessed" Link
* External Links 
** Expand
** Tidy up
Good but needs a lot of work, Highway 14:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Article 

message: yeah, EMI's published transcription gives it as mostly 4-part, going to 3 part in places --feline1 21:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: acapella intro

message: It's fairly well documented in various interviews that the writing credits in Queen, for nearly all of their career (up until 'The Miracle' album), reflected merely who wrote the lyrics - apparently they were trying to allocate credits for "Liar", which was an old song from Freddie's previous band ('Wreckage'?), and contained guitar lines written both by Wreckage's guitarist, and new stuff by Brian May - Freddie reportedly declared "as far as I'm concerned, whoever wrote the words has written the song", and May said they stuck to this rule of thumb until 'The Miracle'...
...bearing this in mind, is it not more accurate to state that, although Freddie Mercury formally owns the copyright for authoring the song, that May wrote the music for several of the guitar based bits?  (I'd just go ahead and change the article, but don't want to be reverted by Queen fans crying sacrilage ;-) --feline1 13:19, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Brian has stated in many interviews, in particular on the Audio Commentary on the latest DVD/CD release of A Night at the Opera that the song was entirely dreamed up by Freddie.. he even wrote the guitar parts for it.. --Drowse 04:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: writing credit

message: The sound effect heard behind this line is not May playing between the bridge and tailpieece of his guitar, it is a bell tree.  See the picture at the following website to see what one looks like : http://www.sunlitedrum.com/drums/productpages/BellTree.htm.
:On the Queen Greatest Hits DVD May states that he made the sound using his guitar. Evil Monkey∴Hello 20:37, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
:: on the "queen - off the record" transcription sheet music that EMI published in the 1990s, its says its a "bell tree", but to be honest it sounds more to my ear like May tinkling his strings above the bridge, which tallies with what he says, so I'd be inclinded to believe him! --feline1 06:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Shivers down my spine" 

message: I have to ask -- I know this doesn't really have much to do with the article itself -- but how exactly do they do this song live given how it was made? --Yar Kramer 19:44, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I explained this in the "trivia" bit--feline1 06:28, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Live 

message: I couldn't find anybody other than the author of this page who claims that this is the "first music video" in any sense, so I removed the claim to that effect. I also tweaked the subjective interpretation of the title, and toned down the claim that "many" tout it as the "most popular song in the world," which would need some evidence. !melquiades 21:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been a lot of rather woolly thinking and propaganda over this "Bohemian Rhapsody was the first ever music video" thing over the years: clearly it was not the first accompanying promotional film for a single (since ever Queen recorded earlier promo films for their stuff, never mind dozens of other bands!) - what *WAS* a "first" about it was that it started off the practice of a record company providing a promotional video/film for their acts' single release, with the express purpose of it being used on "Top of the Pops" when the act were not available to perform themselves - prior to this, the BBC would play the record and have "dancers" like "Pan's People" perform to it on screen. This was a big sea change and should be noted in the article--feline1 09:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember reading in a paper last year that the song got some kind of award or something, "best single of all time". If I found it online, would that be enough evidence? Jon Harald Søby \ no na 21:01, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video and the Title 

message: The story about the recording tape coatings being worn off is mythical.  While it seems to make sense in the light the existence of poor quality consumer tape with oxide that flakes or wears off, in fact recording studios use high quality tape which incoporates lubricants in the oxide.  Just like a vinyl record properly cared for can withstand virtually unlimited playback, studio quality audio tape made by companies like BASF, 3M, or TDK used on well designed professional tape transports will not wear out even under heavy use.  Any company producing such tape would have gone out of business.    --Blainster 18:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: er, oxide-shedding on certain tape stocks is a well-known phenomenon. Also remember that Queen were near penniless until 1976 - they were recording in down-time with less-than-perfect stuff.--feline1 09:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Almost no bands have any money when they begin recording.  The tape and studio time is normally fronted by the recording company, not the band, even if they are billed for it against the record revenues. But my arguments are general and I have no evidence that it applies to this particular situation.  Though I continue to think the story is extremely unlikely, it would be un-Wikilike to insist on a change based on my reasons given.  On the other hand it is also Wiki practice to provide sources for an article.  The story should not be there without a solid reference.  --Blainster 16:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: the story has been repeated in interviews by May and Taylor in virtually every book I have ever read about Queen! I've also heard them say it on radio broadcasts. It was basically because they did *so* many overdubbs, the same bit of tape was run over the heads hundreds of time to the point it started shedding oxide.--feline1 15:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Excellent! Then supplying a source should be a mere trifle. This webpage  describes the digitizing of the "Bohemian Rhapsody" multitrack master in preparation for a surround sound remix, and mentions the common worn tape story, but the master is unspliced and therefore does not confirm the legend. The story is not that the tape was shedding (flaking), but that it was so thin one could see through it.  Such tape would not likely produce useable sound. The veracity of a story is not based on how many times it is repeated, but by a quote from someone who was present at the event.  If you can find a quote from one of them that would be great.  --Blainster 18:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: See-through tape myth

message: Something is wrong here.  Early in the article, it says the vocals took 84 hours to complete.  Later on 84-part vocal choirs are referred to.  I doubt this is coincidence - from the rest of the text it sounds like what is really meant is that 84 vocal takes were combined in certain parts?  If so, this is not 84-part harmony - it would just be an 84-voice choir, perhaps with as few as 3 or 4 different parts.
Some elaboration on the actual subject of the song would be great too, if anyone knows why, for example, Scaramouche is referred to, or what 'Bismillah' means.  The link to the page Basmala is most unenlightening!  What does "Galileo figaro magnifico" mean?  What does "Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me" mean? Etc.
Stevage 16:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Aye. In terms of functional harmony, there's nothing more complicated than a 7th chord. There are sections where there are (say) 3 different "choir parts", each made up of 4 harmony lines, each recorded by triple-track each voice, with is sthg like 3 x 3 x 4 = 36 layers of voices. Maybe in a few brief portions, it overlaps to the extent of giving 84 voices ... then the next bar will be just one solo Freddie... crazy stuff :-) --feline1 19:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  84?

message: I have removed this:
 Some claim that the first minute of "Bohemian Rhapsody" inspired the ending of the song "One Jump Ahead (reprise)" 
 from the Disney animated film Aladdin; both are sung by a poor boy character, and both 
 have the words "to me" sung on the same notes in roughly the same inflection over the same cadence.
I can't find anything on this on the web that isn't a copy of wikipedia. Sounds like bogus original research. Anyone? --Stevage 03:26, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If "some claim" then the editor of that section should find them. --malber 04:06, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Disney song reference

message: There is no discussion of the lyrics in the main part of the article. Could someone add some please? Rhollenton 00:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lyrics

message: In popular culture this song is associated with Freddie Mercury's struggle with AIDS. I seem to remember reading that this was probably incorrect since the song was release (1975) before the AIDS epidemic (1981). Is there a reason this isn't brought up in the article?--Dbolton 08:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Association with AIDS struggle 

message: My doubt here is about the first key. It's true that Bo Rhap starts in Bb and all of that, but imo it modulates to Eb for "mamma ooooh". Reasons:
- Eb turns into the centre of gravity
- Fm appears and is an important part of the harmony. Fm is a diatonic function in Eb (ii, or relative of the subdominant), while it's an unusual chromatic chord in Bb (iv).
What Freddie did in that song section was to apply sequentially a similar progression (I>vi>ii>V) in two different (alas related) keys, thus having Bb>Gm>Cm>F during "mamma just killed a man..." and Eb>Cm>Fm>Bb during "mamma oooooh...".
Therefore the abrupt modulation would be from Eb to A, not Bb to A.
::: Hmm, well he kinda drags the whole thing down through a chromatic-ish falling-down-the-stairs type cadence anyways, lasting a bar or so, it doesn#t just "suddenly" modulate from Eb to A.--feline1 22:04, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abrupt modulation from Bb to A... 

message: I have fixed a lot of errors with this, the list is down from around 30 to 15, which are either crits on Trivia or more importantly Content Issues. If you can fix these then I think it's ready for renomination (please get a copyedit before you do):
* Structure and analysis:
** This section is actually good, but try to add more information, perhaps a picture of them singing in the a capella? 
** Explain the importance/difference of 7ths/keys/chords to non musicians
* Popularity
** Clumsy writing
** "double-A single".. which is?
** Summarise the success in charts, does anyone care about Dutch taste?
** Re-organise last two paragraphs into the existing ones
* Trivia 
** Remove TV trivia, they're not very significant
** I would personally move information about the song onstage to it's own section, mainly because of it's higher significance compared to the other trivia (moving the reference of concerts from the introduction to this paragraph would also be an idea.)
** "The title does not appear anywhere within the words of the song." This link should be fixed: ie- not the whole sentence
* Cover Versions
** Clean up and remove POV and useless entries
* References
** Add lots more
** Use inline citation
** Add "URL Last Accessed" Link
* External Links 
** Expand
** Tidy up
Since I've editted the article quite a bit, I'd rather not review this again (I don't normally edit candidates, it's easier to judge what the nominee left for you), I'll probably ask User:CorbinSimpson if he'd like to review, he and I have a similar understanding and process. Good luck and ask if you have a problem, Highway 00:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "does anyone care about Dutch taste?" This question is POV (I would say: discriminating...). Do you really think the US and the UK are the only relevant countries in this context? -- Candyfloss 12:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an offensive, racist, patronising comment actually. And particularly ridiculous considering that the man who wrote the damn song in the first place was Persian, born in Tanzania, and educated in India.--feline1 15:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is on a Queen song, not how mainstream Dutch music taste is! What I MEANT to say was that it's not particularly high priority, while you have a "On Stage" section just sitting, waiting to be made Highway 22:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remaining Errors 

message: Per request, which I have accepted, I will evaluate this article for Good Article Status on or around Friday, April 6. Some things to note:
* Make sure images are tagged. (Done)
* Try to clean up grammar.
* Double-check major points of MoS compliance.
* Check for weasel words and disruptive prose, and fix.
Good luck. I have not really read this article, and aside from one musical note, I have never edited it. Have fun. - CorbinSimpson 01:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some points re: the intro paragraph:
* Calling Freddie a "rock-pianist/vocalist" is a rather odd way to summarize him. (I don't believe he ever gave solo piano recital concerts ;-) Or only ever played piano as opposed to other keyboards. He also often composed and occasionally performed on guitar. He was carried out record production and arrangement. And is perhaps most famous for his stage performance skills...etc etc). Something such as "rock-musician" might be a more general statement.
* just saying "...THE band Queen" doesn't explain that Freddie was a member of Queen. Perhaps "...his band Queen"?
* Is the term "heavy metal" not anachronistic for 1975? Would it be used by the band themselves? I think they would say "heavy rock".
* The word "touted" is a bit suggestive. "acclaimed as" or "nomiated" or "voted" instead ...?--feline1 09:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your article not mine, good luck Highway 09:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Article nomination and review 

message: I have removed the following cover versions, as no confirmed details are available:
* The officers in the Royal Navy made a spoof of it while patrolling the Indian Ocean. 
* A high school steel drum band located in Pittsburgh, PA, performed Bohemian Rhapsody as the song for their indoor band competitions. The song sounds as though it were the actual song although it is being performed on the steel drums.
*In 2005, the song was covered by Jack Tuesday & the Hundred Dollar Bills, at their live performance in Dover Massachusetts. It can be heard on their album "Live in Dover", which experienced limited release but received high praise.
*USD A Capella did a cover: (purevolume.com/USDacapella).
* Rockapella, an a cappella band, did a version of Bohemian Rhapsody.
*((It was covered by The Braids as a dance music|dance song.))
-- Candyfloss 21:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed cover versions 

message: "It has also topped VH1's "100 Greatest Songs from the Past 25 Years" list."
that list only goes back to 1978 bohemian rhapsody was released in 1975
172.131.243.2 01:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 100 Greatest Songs from the Past 25 Years

message: Under Cover versions; Bad News ... the line "John Deacon, known for his inability to sing, provided some backing vocals." appears.
John was NOT known for an ability to sing, rather he was known for a weaker voice than the other band members chrisboote 10:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Reluctance to sing" would be more accurate. In fact, I've changed it to that. Regardless of John's actual vocal qualities, he himself clearly felt they weren't up to par, as he steadfastly refused to sing in other Queen material. JRM · Talk 16:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanx, that reads better as well chrisboote 14:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A little harsh on John

message: Dose anyone know the dates of the 1991 and 1992 re-releases?--Miketm 02:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  re-release 

message: Even though is breaks my heart, it is strictly forbidden on Wikipedia (or anywhere) to include an entire song (continuously or broken up) without paying download royalties - per download.  Wikipedia guidelines place the limit at 10% of the total or, in this case, 36 seconds.  You will either have to choose just one sample, or create a new sample that best represents the song.  But the rest of the article was very interesting (a pleasure to read), and this is one of my favorite songs!--Esprit15d 13:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed GA nomination

message: Image problems! The coverart image {:Image:Bohemian rhapsody single.jpg) and music video image {:Image:Bohemianrhapsodyfeedback.jpg) lack either source information or a fair use rationale. This is required to pass 6a) of the Good Article Criteria. You might want to see if any of the notes require references as well. Thanks,Alexj2002 17:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added the source to the single cover (:Image:Bohemian Rhapsody.png), I couldn't find a source for the music video screen shot so I've removed it.--miketm - Queen WikiProject - 01:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA on hold

message: The Trivia section is a bit large. Is there a way to integrate some of the information into the bulk of the main article? Or at the very least fashion a sort of "Legacy in Popular culture" type section and do away with the bullet points. Agne 12:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That was what I was going to note. I've officially listed it as on hold on the GAC list.  --  Zanimum 19:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Trivia section has been cut down considerably. — miketm - Queen WikiProject - 18:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  someone keeps re-adding that section and i keep removing it.— miketm - Queen WikiProject - 04:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: SeizureDog, I don't agree with you. I think a selection of other recordings should be included in the article. (See also e.g. the Beatles song 'A Day in the Life' which received featured article status.) --Candyfloss 12:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Its list is also much shorter and cleaner though. In any case, I am fine with the new "Selected cover versions" section. --SeizureDog 03:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the cover version should stay also, if it can be done cleanly and concisely.  Covers are an important part of a song's legacy.--Esprit15d 12:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA recommendation

message: Passed it hold ran out, IMO all of the above issues have been seen to, however try to completely dissolve the trivia section and sprinkle it amongst the other sections, otherwise it's fine
(The Bread 04:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Passing 

message: I remember there being a picture of the echo sequence, where did it go and why did the deletor delete it? Davros77 15:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See "GA on hold."—172.165.18.3 22:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Note: This article has a small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and currently would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 02:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Re-Review and In-line citations 

message: This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it.  Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed.  I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy.  In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 05:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  YouTube links 

message: The article is about a song and its structure. The fact that its structure is unusual but is reminiscent of another recent hit (live and let die) is plainly relevant. Anyone can hear it if they listen - so the reference is the two tracks themselves. 88888 14:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read WP:OR, WP:POV, WP:RS.  It fails all three.  Find a reliable outside source that makes the claim and it can be put in.  As it is, it doesn't belong.  Please remove it. --*Spark* 14:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sourced or not, it's a bad comparison. "Live and Let Die" is FAR more conventional than "Bohemian Rhapsody." Its structure is little more than a variant on the standard verse-chorus-bridge structure of most rock songs. (Having the bridge occur after the first verse-chorus is uncommon but not unheard of.) Some elements of the song are a little creative, but it doesn't stretch the boundaries of pop music in any way remotely comparable to BR. marbeh raglaim 22:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Live and let die

message: The part which divides the song into parts and describes it is incredibly pretentious and original research besides. I have to run but if I get some free time later today I'll try to fix it up a little.203.131.167.26 02:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pretentious Original Research 

message: Under sections it says "The chromatic bass line brings about a modulation to E-flat"  I would hardly call that bassline chromatic.  I think it should be removed unless someone can justify this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.39.142.240 (talk) 05:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chromatic Bass Line