Talk:North Macedonia/Archive 6

message: Looks like this page still has a ways to go! 
see: this message on inter's talk page. Kim Bruning 02:58, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV needs work?

message: Dear all
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia.
I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. 
My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts.
Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia.
This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia?
Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs.
Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia?
If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!!
Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess.
But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it?
Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians.
Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family.
How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there?
Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito.
Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country.
Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians).
Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled).
Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors).
Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians.
If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed.
Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims.
Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web.
There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia.
The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect,
Igor Šterbinski
Skopje, Macedonia
is@on.net.mk
----
DNA Testing
I am not willing to argue over the many points Igor's article raises, simply because most of them are childish and vindictive. I do not wish to irritate him even more (i understand he has been having some problems with wikipedia due to his temper). What i really want to do is make a short comment on the DNA testings he has mentioned. Igor, please bear in mind that when you are submiting an article in the public domain, it is available for everyone to see and some of the people that will read it are bound to be experts on various subjects. I happen to be an expert in genetics and what you said about DNA testing is completely innacurate. How do you propose you will prove the origin of your nation by DNA testing? Sure you can take DNA samples from subjects demographically chosen but to what are you going to compare these samples against? I would really like to know. Talking about things you do now have knowledge on just works against you.--TheVirus 04:53, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Wikipedia??? 

message: *It is false 66% "Macedonian Orthodox"!
*See:
Macedonian Orthodox 32.4%, other Christian 0.2%, Muslim 16.9%, other and unspecified 50.5% (2002 census)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html 
Vergina 05:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Religions of FYROM

message: After the revert wars and the locking of the article Macedonian denar due to its disclaimer, a vote was put up at Talk:Macedonian denar/Vote. Please vote whether articles that include the name of the Republic of Macedonia should include the disclaimer or not. bogdan | Talk 19:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Talk:Macedonian denar/Vote]] 

message: Cf. . --Joy [shallot] 20:33, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  boilerplate text -> template 

message: This might upset the Macedonian nationalists but the whole claim is ridiculous: when during the 19th century, Pan-Slavism was growing among the Slavic communities of Europe, those occupying present-day Macedonia decided to adopt the name 'Macedonian' for their subnation as it were, so as not to be caught in the cross-fire between Bulgaria and Serbia even though both the latter nations are infact Slavic. Perhaps Bulgars are not originally Slavic but once they were embedded within Slavic communities, they soon assimilated Slavic language, culture and identity and the evidence of their Turkic backgrounds were soon wiped out: first you have two nations, Slavs and Bulgars occupying the same territory, then as Bulgars start speaking the Slav language, marrying Slavs and only teaching their children the Slav language, within a few generations there is nothing left of the old people and nobody now can go to one of the towns and say 'She is Slavic and he is a Bulgar' for they become one and the same. So what then IS Bulgarian? and Serbian? and now Macedonian for that matter? Simple, they are nothing but power bases: names used by influential people in high places to lure as many people around them as possible into believing 'This is who you are, be one of us and you will be rewarded.'
When between 1885-86 the Bulgarians defeated the Serbs in the battle for Slivnitsa, the southern-most people still to be under Ottoman rule were (at the same time as developing their culture/language etc) divided as to whether they were Bulgarians or Serbs with both 'bases' trying to encourage these people to accept them and not the other. Finally in the 1890's the southern-most Slavs decided that they would take the historical name for their region 'Macedonia' and use it to standardize and develop and nation with all of its properties which is both seperate to Bulgaria and Serbia, and thus was created the I.M.R.O (their headquarters were in a part of Slav-occuppied Macedonia in present day Bulgaria).
Now, after World War I, Macedonia was carved up three ways between the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, Slovenes; Greece; and Bulgaria. This subsequently meant that Blagoevgrad (to take an example) lies in both Macedonia AND Bulgaria. Macedonia is the provincial region and Bulgaria is the name of the government which rules over the regions people; whether or not those people classed themselves as Bulgarians by nationality would have their own choice. But just as it is possible for Blagoevgrad to be a part of Bulgaria AND Macedonia simply for being situated on land which was at different times occupied by both sets of people whilst THESE ones are Slavic, so too can this be the case in todays FYROM. Ancient Bulgars were present there too when they converted identity to Slavic - Turkey can rename herself Anatolia; Iraq may be called Babylon, my point is that it wouldn't make the people Babylonian if in fact they are Arabs!
The claims by the principle population of FYROM that they are descended from Alexander the Great and not from the occupying Slavs from AD 555 onwards is preposterous. Ancient Macedonians were a tribe about which nobody knew prior to their crusade when they annexed the Hellenic tribes who fought against each other frequently. Converting to Greek indentity themselves they conquered much of the middle-east but never the less, by the time the Slavs arrived to their present settlement, ONLY a Greek nation could have been living in Ancient Macedonia IF AT ALL these towns were even inhabited. Today, FYROM is a rather heteregenous territory. Asides the principle population you have Albanians, Turks, Gypsies, Romanians, Caucasians (speakers of Adyghe) and pockets of others. Yet it is only the Slavic-speaking people who call themselves 'Macedonian'.  The U.N recognizes everybody to have been living in the FYROM since 1993 as being Macedonian with the distinction appearing after the adjective 'Macedonian', for example, Gheg speaking residents of villages near Tetovo are called 'Albanci/Shiptari' by those who speak the Slav language in Prilep but to the U.N are known as 'Macedonian Albanians'. Descendants from the Ottoman Empire who still speak a form of Turkish (such as the Gaugaz nation) are referred to as Macedonian-Turks. So how does this leave the main population of Macedonia? Macedonian-Macedonians? That doesn't make sense since the term Macedonian is already applied...the question is why are they not Turks or Albanians? In fact, they are recognised internationally as Macedonian Slavs, or Slav-Macedonians.  They may dispute this and argue with it but let's put this whole issue under closer inspection. Albanians, said to have desecded from the Illyrians have also been present in the region for thousands of years, certainly whilst any original Macedonians would have been roaming the region. There are Albanians who live in the present day Fyrom, as well as Albanians who live in Greek Macedonia. There are Slavic communities who live in parts of Albania (including sections outside of the part of Macedonia within Albania) and there are of course still many tens of thousands of Slavic people living in Greece (though most were relocated after WWII in order to play down their claim to the territory). But why is it that when you speak to someone in Bitola or Skopje, they will tell you that 'The reason that Giorgos and Dimitris from Lerin (that is Florina) speak my language is because they are Macedonians like I am who were forced into dissimilation by the post-war Greek government.'  
It is true that our fictional characters were dissimilated but from being 'Macedonian'?  No sir, from Slavic.  Why is the term 'Macedonian' not applied to Albanian or Greek speakers within Macedonia? EVEN the GREEK part of Macedonia!  Alexanders descendants becomed Slavisized with the arrival of the Serbs etc.  What, all of them??  Did none of them maintain their original Greek language?  Then who are these Greek people living in Thessaloniki?  It might be said that they are originally from farther south, Athens and the islands, pushed north to dilute the Slavic-speaking population. But what about the Albanians? Not the ones in Albania or the Fyrom but the Alvarites who live in Greek Macedonia?  If it were the 'real Macedonians' destiny to convert identity, did that only mean Slavic? Could it not have meant Albanian too since they were also living there? and once again, if not - then who are these Albanian speaking people in Kastoria etc?  Does it really wash?  Greek speakers are Greek, Albanian speakers are Albanian but the Slav-speaking people of the same town are descendants of ancient Macedonians who history recorded to have switched nationality anyway?
It is every nationalist's dream to see his forged nation succeed and take over as much land and people as possible.  Bulgaria is the same, she would take the whole of Macedonia if she could and make her 'Bulgaria', adding the same propoganda.  Traditional Serbian views see Macedonia as a part of Serbia but they would have done this with Bulgaria too - had they succeeded the first step in capturing the border areas in their 1885 war. Croatia is no different, their government too like to apply the term 'Croat' to people not only outside of Croatia's borders but people who themselves call themselves something else.
Yet the remarkable thing is, moving politics to one side: borders may change daily but where you have Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Montenegro etc, right through to Slovenia and beyond (because on the opposite end of this region, the problem is mirrored with Slavic communities who might be said to belong to Slovenia indigenous to regions outside Slovenia (ie.Austria and Italy), you don't actually find a cultural border anywhere. A country called Yugoslavia was formed and it fell apart. Bulgaria was never included. But do as I did in the 1980's and start travelling somewhere outside the region, say Kirklisse in Turkey - this town has a traditional Slavic population, claimed by Sofia to be 'Bulgarians' but their claims are unmatched by any of the other Slavic nations since European Turkey is just too far away for Bosnia's government to say 'OOOOYYYYYY - their OUURRSS .... can you hear us??? you're Bosnians!!!  remember?? your great-great-great-grandparents started travelling to Ankara hundreds of years ago.......... what's that?   ..oh you're Orthodox are you? sorry...'
Belgrade: Orthodox? Well they're ours then, what are you doing claiming them you Sarajevo Muslims?
Zagreb: Wo! Hold the bullshit, we have documents in Zadar saying that they were forced into Orthodoxy by an invading Russian militia when the region was still under Venice and so they are Croats!
...you get the picture!
My point is that IF you travel from Kirklisse (known to the Slavic speakers as Lozengrad), and travel to Bulgaria, then Macedonia, then Serbia, then Montenegro, then Herzegovina, then back into Serbia, then into Macedonia via a different route, then Albania where Slavs live, then Greece where Slavs live, then back up north and into Bosnia, then Vojvodina (Serbia), then Slavonia (Croatia) then into Slovenia, then back down the Dalmatian coast - town by town, village by village, you have a continuum of dialect (eventually language), a continuum of people (Slavs), a continuum of culture (Slovenia and Bulgaria are different but there are many similarities and the differences have intervening stages where-by in some places, two or more customs may be practised), and a continuum of ideology - like Italy and its 60 million people, or Germany's 80 million... so why can't Macedonians just be proud to be Slavic when infact THAT is everything about them, their entire existence is based on it. By using the name Macedonia, they only make things difficult for themselves. User:AlfredG 25/aug/05
:This is an excellent summation of what goes on, or rather, how things evolved.  What irks me, as a scientist, the most about the whole affair is the now infamous genetic research "findings", based on the HLA studies by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena.  I will bypass the obvious embarrassments such as the participation of scientists from FYROM in that paper, and the sharp reprimand such papers received fron no less than Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in no less an august science journal than Nature magazine.  By far the most outrageous element of this odious story is the ideological backbone of the arguments derived from it, namely that genes prove or disprove something about a population's "true ethnicity"!  If this is not pure, true Nazism, I don't know what is.  And while FYROMian scientists could conceivably be excused for not being quite aware of mainstream Western anti-racist values, the Spanish geneticist lacks any excuse whatsoever.  Having received some genetics training myself, I can only feel contempt for such people.  There is nothing inherently wrong with such studies per se, obviously.  They can, and do, shed light into patterns of transhumance through prehistorical and historical times alike.  But using such studies to somehow justify modern-day politics is beneath contempt.  One would hope that such thinking went the way of the Nuremberg Trials convicts 60 years ago.  Apparently, and unfortunately, it has not.   Chronographos 07:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The sheer ridiculousness of the situation is further illustrated by the following: as you know, Bulgarians maintain that the Macedonian Slav language is practically the same as the Bulgarian language, whereas FYROM insists this is not the case.  As a result, whenever officials from these two countries meet or hold a mutual press conference, FYROM officials insist on using Bulgarian-Slavomacedonian translators, whereas Bulgarian officials take all their questions in Slavomacedonian sans translation, and answer them in Bulgarian.  Makes one wonder if the FYROM officials undergo "apathy training" to keep their facial expressions and body language from showing that they understand what is being said before the "translator" finishes.  Chronographos 14:21, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ridicule 

message: Hi, I heard about this contreversy, and if a neutral party is needed, please let me know. I don't really have any ties to either side, and it'd be nice to solve this dispute.Even if it's happening in the "real world", we here on Wikipedia should be a shining example of objectivity and cooperation regardless of our nationality. Karmafist 01:48, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Just Curious from an Outsider's Point of View

message: ... now under a different guise?  Chronographos 22:15, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Is "[[User:Via_Egnatia|Via Egnatia]]" yet another [[User:i_sterbinski|"secret human rights organization"]] ...

message: Can some admins check if these are wikispam?
I'm not sure if it's spam, irrelevant or just ok.
MATIA 13:09, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: [Thread completely tangental to writing the article refactored. It can be viewed in the history for anyone interested, but let's leave it off here and try to staty on topic, please.] Jonathunder 23:40, 2005 September 11 (UTC)
I think that they are just websites containing POV and propaganda. I can't be sure of course though. REX 13:59, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  is this wikispam? 

message: This article is duplicated.
Fyrom should be merged here. José San Martin 22:07, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reverted it. I think the anonymous editor copy-pasted this wiki there. +MATIA  ☎ 22:43, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicated 

message: The naming dispute issue is given too much coverage, it is already mentioned in the introduction and then given its own section. The whole issue should be summarised under a separate section entitled Foreign Relations. This is the problem with Wikipedia, disputes end up being given too much attention to appease both sides at the expense of the rest of the article. --A.Garnet 13:03, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; I'm reworking the Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia article at the moment and will move much of the naming dispute content into that article. -- ChrisO 18:08, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming dispute 

message: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia no longer links here due to changes by Thrax. I'm not sure if this is apropro, but I thought it should be brought to attention. freestylefrappe 01:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Although that is not the name of the country, some people might search for the country in this way. No matter this % is prbably very little (given the lenght of the phrase), I think it should keep linking to this article. Will Wikipedia have 2 pages for the same country? Macedonian(talk) 04:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No it can't have 2 pages. It should be merged. +MATIA  ☎ 22:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's better redirected, actually - it doesn't say anything that isn't already in other articles. Unfortunately Thrax appears to have been on a POV-pushing exercise with this and a number of other articles. -- ChrisO 22:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway, to be honest... lets think about... How many Wikipedia users will write all 5 words for that page? Especially when talking about a name which is refused by more countries than it was accepted by. Macedonian(talk) 02:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYROM 

message: *Muslim   :605.000 
*Greek    :398.000
*Bulgarian:271.000
*http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
::Vergina 08:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 1911:POPULATION BY VILAYET THESSALONIKI(Selanik)

message: *Muslim   :456.000 
*Greek    :350.000
*Bulgarian:246.000
*http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
::Vergina 08:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 1911:POPULATION BY VILAYET MONASTIR([[Bitola]])

message: *Muslim   :959.000 
*Greek    : 93.000
*Bulgarian:531.000
*http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
::Vergina 08:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good god people (Greeks)! Will you understand already? Normally that in that time you won't find "Macedonian population". That's because Macedonians were facing enormous repressions from all sides - not to call them whatever they want! Bomac 15:05, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That was a time of various censuses, all supporting 3 different sides: the Serbian, the Bulgarian and the Greek. The censuses were including the Macedonians as a part of the Greeks, Bulgarians or Serbs (depending which side they needed to support), so those 3 nations would have logical reason to say that Macedonia belongs to them. That is actually why the Balkan wars started. These censuses were just a beggining of it. Macedonian(talk) 04:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 1911:POPULATION BY VILAYET KOSOVO(capital city [[Uskub]])

message: Here are some external sources for the proofs that the ancient Macedonians were considered Greek, naturally. I suggest you learn HISTORY and not conform to pseudo-science (remember that Genetics paper in the journal published by some Spanish and Macedonian (sic) - slavonic nationals claiming the Macedonians as a separate ancient entity?). Well regarding such pseudo-science, the paper was published in an impact factor journal of just under 1.5 (meaning it's impact is akin to wiping one's bottom after relieving themselves). In addition, the paper is extremely flawed, considering it's implication is to say that Macedonian-slavs are different from Greeks... point taken, ofcourse they are... but purporting (by Slav nationals) that therefore the genes of the modern Macedonian(sic)-slavs means that they are the descendants of the ancient Macedonians. Where were those ancient genes obtained (Oh I know... they weren't as the researches DID NOT have access to ancient DNA from the ancient Macedonians so comparing Slavic Genes to Greek Genes is ofcourse going to be different). Ergo sum totali crappus!!!  Hence, read these in ancient Hebrew... if you can and then see what the ancient Hebrews thought. Books: Daniel (chap.8, 1-22 chap.2 para.39 4-13, 26-28, 31, 38 chap. 7, 2-7) Isiaiah chap. 19, 20 chap. 19,23 Joel chap.3 v.6, Jeremy, Habacoum chap.2, v.5 and the books of the Maccabees (1st book chap. 1, v.1 & 10 chap. 6 v.2, II 8, 20 III 8).  
Shalom l'olam, 
Sanser ha-Maqdon ha-Yewanit ve-Melekh Yewanim.
::I think that you should read something else than your history book. Do you claim that the modern Greek nation is a direct descendant from the antique Greeks? Not a fact that historians would support, hence the modern nations are formed after the 15th century.
::Also, do you maybe still beleive in Zeus? Or, do you still think that the gods live on Olimp? Even the culture you have today has nothing to do with Antient Greece.
::I am not denying that the modern Greeks are connected with the antient Greeks, but they are not the same people.
::Also, after so many mixing between the people of the region that happened during the last 25 centuries, how shallow is to claim that one modern nation have "exclusive rights" over the "Antique Macedonia"?
::Sorry, but if you want to participate in these discutions, you should figure out something smarter and more reliable.
::Concerning the genes... there is no research that can proof direct connection between a modern nation and antique people here on the Balkan. As I said, there were simply too many mixings. Macedonian(talk) 07:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Something FYI.   

message: Please don't forget that this article is supposed to be a summary. Some people are adding a load more material to this section - it should go to History of the Republic of Macedonia instead. Four paragraphs of history in this article are quite enough... -- 08:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Length of the history section

message: This is a country which was a part of Jugoslavia,where a lot of people are Albanians,where they speak a bulgarian dialekt,and they want to have a greek name(makos in ancient greek means tall).
User talk:Makedonas
::And you are anonimous (Greek or Bulgarian) ultra-nationalist that wrote this comment with one reason only: to deny the existance of a nation that is internationaly recognized under its natural name, "Macedonians". Reffer to this link, maybe it will make you realise that your history book of primary school is not the most reliable source in the world. Macedonian(talk) 01:20, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: With that aditude towards our national feeling, I certainly doubt that you have any Macedonian friend. Who would like to be a friend with someone who wants to deny his national feeling and identity? Macedonian(talk) 01:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is FYROM?