Template talk:Twelvers

message: | heading6 = Groups
| content6 =
* Usuli
* Akhbari
* Shaykhi
* Ni'matullāhī
* Qalandariyya
* Safaviyya
* Qizilbash 
* Alawism
* Alevism
* Bektashism
* Hurufism
ADD  Qalandariyya && Hurufism
68.100.162.64 (talk) 10:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  ADD [[Qalandariyya]] && [[Hurufism]] TOO! 

message: It gives link to a Sunni person, who has nothing common with Twelvers 
68.100.162.64 (talk) 04:40, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHAT is this? '''[[Tabarie]]''' 

message: | heading6 = Groups
| content6 =
* Usuli
* Akhbari
* Shaykhi
* Ni'matullāhī
* Qalandariyya
* Safaviyya
* Qizilbash 
* Alawism
* Alevism
* Bektashism
* Hurufism
68.100.162.64 (talk) 10:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  NEED 

message: Category:Islam templates
Category:"Part of a series on" templates
== Tabarie connection is IRRELEVANT also ADD: * Qalandariyya and * Hurufism ==161.253.50.61 (talk) 01:13, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously Pink revers,  Dreamz rosez, and  User talk:193.188.105.227 are the same users. Ask an admin to "checkuser". In any case, he/she seems to be blocked anyway --Gerash77 15:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Special:Contributions/161.253.50.98|161.253.50.98]] ([[User talk:161.253.50.98|talk]]) 21:06, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

message: * Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari was a sunni not belong to shiism 68.100.162.64 (talk) 02:15, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  PUT * [[Hurufism]] instead of [[Tabarie]]  [[Special:Contributions/68.100.162.64|68.100.162.64]] ([[User talk:68.100.162.64|talk]]) 02:23, 25 November 2013 (UTC) 

message: Hurufiyyah  Bektashiyyah88.246.161.238 (talk) 14:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  PLESASE make a correction as 

message: This gives a link to the page of Tabarie Henry which is irrelevant to Twelvers.88.246.161.238 (talk) 14:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Check the link for [[Tabarie]]''' 

message: We have a talk page, can we please discuss why there is a problem? Streamlining here is important. Thanks.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Enzuru (talk • contribs) 
: Obviously Pink revers,  Dreamz rosez, and  User talk:193.188.105.227 are the same users. Ask an admin to "checkuser". In any case, he/she seems to be blocked anyway --Gerash77 15:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Once again, for those undoing my changes

message: I prefer to discus here instead of reversions. There are several issues and we should speak about them one by one. I invite other Shi'a wikipedians to come and write their idea. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would rather this image. It looks better than the other one. --Aminz 20:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree. Someone was telling me on the article of History of Sunni-Shia relations that the Alawis of Syria's Asad family have been accepted by prominent Shia clerics as a Shia branch.--Zereshk 19:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alawis are considered twelvers in Lebanon, following the same principles as twelvers, but they're ancestory is diffrent, something like that, this is what I know. Ahmad Husseini 19:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I knew this one was going to be a controversial edit on my part, considering Usoolism, Akhbarism, and Shaykhism were all so close, and Alawism and Alevism is just out there. But when it comes down to it, those two certainly aren't their own thing: they are within the Twelver Shi'ah tradition, and they believe they are certainly following these Imams. Whether an Usooli Ayatollah considers them to be Twelver or not is certainly not the question here, rather it is in the broad spectrum of things: are they? Ahmadiyya is listed under Islam here despite the fact they have been unanimously by almost every denomination denounced as outside the fold of Islam. I can understand changing the name to "Interpretations", but I cannot understanding taking these two groups out. They believe in twelve Imams, and the same twelve. How they practice, and what they believe to be the nature of these Imams, is an entirely different issue, which leaves them within the fold of Twelverism. It's like how the Druze were excluded from "Islam" articles until the Ismaili articles gave them recognition I suppose. --Enzuru 05:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: History: http://www.geocities.com/martinkramerorg/Alawis.htm - If they want to be known as twelvers, then they must be included.--Gerash77 13:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: In that case I wrote my idea in talk:Theology of Shia--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 18:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ironically, in contrast to the other changes trying to bring attention away from Usoolism, these were quite Usooli-centric. I think considering the numbers of adherents Usoolism has in the Twelver world and its sheer organization, these are warranted. --Enzuru 22:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Theology of Shia is about Kalam while Usoolism is a branch of Ja'fari jurisprudence. So I disagree with you.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute resolution

message: Based on the votes I made the changes. Change it if I did anything wrong. --Enzuru 01:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes made 

message: *:Image:Almahdi.gif
#User:Sa.vakilian: 
##I prefer this one because it represents all 12 Imams while the other emphasize on Ali who is known all branches of Shia as Imam. 
##The people of west have bad idea about the "sword of Islam".
##It reinforces the propaganda against Muslims and Shi'a.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would rather this image. It looks better than the other one. --Aminz 20:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture

message: *Twelverism
#It goes with Ismailism. And I love Ismailism. :P --Enzuru 05:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: *Imams
#User:Ahmadhusseini - Fatima(a.s.) was considered a member of the Beit, so Ahlul-Beit is too general, when speaking about our 12 blessed Imams.
#I would prefer this one, partly because the term Ahl al-Bayt is understood by our Sunni brothers differently. Imam seems less controversial. --Aminz 20:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ahl al-Bayt vs. Imams

message: Which texts should we write in this part?
*Qur'an 
#User:Sa.vakilian
#--Striver - talk 17:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Texts & Laws

message: I disagree with this part. On one hand Usuli, Akhbari and Shaykhism aren't separate Madhab. They're just different interpretation of Shia. On the other hand most of twelvers don't recognize Alevism and Alawism as twelvers.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 15:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Someone was telling me on the article of History of Sunni-Shia relations that the Alawis of Syria's Asad family have been accepted by prominent Shia clerics as a Shia branch.--Zereshk 19:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alawis are considered twelvers in Lebanon, following the same principles as twelvers, but they're ancestory is diffrent, something like that, this is what I know. Ahmad Husseini 19:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I knew this one was going to be a controversial edit on my part, considering Usoolism, Akhbarism, and Shaykhism were all so close, and Alawism and Alevism is just out there. But when it comes down to it, those two certainly aren't their own thing: they are within the Twelver Shi'ah tradition, and they believe they are certainly following these Imams. Whether an Usooli Ayatollah considers them to be Twelver or not is certainly not the question here, rather it is in the broad spectrum of things: are they? Ahmadiyya is listed under Islam here despite the fact they have been unanimously by almost every denomination denounced as outside the fold of Islam. I can understand changing the name to "Interpretations", but I cannot understanding taking these two groups out. They believe in twelve Imams, and the same twelve. How they practice, and what they believe to be the nature of these Imams, is an entirely different issue, which leaves them within the fold of Twelverism. It's like how the Druze were excluded from "Islam" articles until the Ismaili articles gave them recognition I suppose. --Enzuru 05:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: History: http://www.geocities.com/martinkramerorg/Alawis.htm - If they want to be known as twelvers, then they must be included.--Gerash77 13:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Major branches

message: We can add History of Shi'a Islam and Views on Shi'a Islam in this part. I also want to add Ja'fari jurisprudence and Theology of Shia. I disagree about Qom, Najaf and Ayatollah.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 15:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case I wrote my idea in talk:Theology of Shia--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 18:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ironically, in contrast to the other changes trying to bring attention away from Usoolism, these were quite Usooli-centric. I think considering the numbers of adherents Usoolism has in the Twelver world and its sheer organization, these are warranted. --Enzuru 22:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Theology of Shia is about Kalam while Usoolism is a branch of Ja'fari jurisprudence. So I disagree with you.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: See also

message: Bektashi is in itself really related to Alevism, and is more of a tariqa of Sufism than a school of belief in Twelverism. And, 'ghulat' is just a pejorative, so no use with that. --Enzuru 01:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why I took out Bektashi and Ghulat 

message: On Template:Twelvers, I am considering narrowing the branches to four, which would be Usoolism, Shaykhism, Akhbarism, and then Yazdanism, or what is also known as the Cult of the Angels. Yazdanism will include as its branches Alevism, Alawism, Ahl-e-Haqq (Yarsan), and Yezidism. This will correlate with a large rewrite and organization of the Yazdani articles. Tell me what you think. --Enzuru 14:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should separate the three former ones and call them Jafari's sects. All of them fallows Jafari jurisprudence . The other ones differ fundamentally. And I guess Yazdanism is an offshoot sect. I guess in Iran people know them as Satanism. Do you have any good reference which show they are Twelvers. What's your idea about 12 Qutb Sufism. As I know there were too many of them in Iran before Safavi dynasty. --Seyyed(t-c) 15:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are several references that both refer to these groups as both Muslim, and non-Muslim. Even among themselves, there is controversy whether to refer to themselves as such, however a majority of them do. It seems to be a theory that all three of these groups are manifestations of an older Kurdish religion, however, mainly Kurdish writers espouse this, such as Kurdistanica, so it might be nationalist propaganda. I will have to research this to be sure if I should consider them all 'Yazdani' or not. And you are correct, none of them follow Jafari fiqh, however there has been a recent movement among a minority of Alevi to do so under the influence of Usooli scholars. I'm not sure about your question about 12 Qutb Sufism, are you referring to Twelver Sufism? From my knowledge, most Twelvers in pre-Safavid Iran belonged to this Yazdani group, however the Sufis seemed to parallel alot with Sunni Sufis in basic texts and doctrines. For example, in the oldest treatise on Sufism, Kashf al-Mahjub, a special section has been set aside for proving Sufism within the tradition of the Ahlul'bayt. --Enzuru 15:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There were several Sufi orders which considered 12 Imam as 12 Qutb. They agree with the 3 first caliphs but also believe in Ali as Wali. As I know Jami and Shah Nimatullah belonged to them. --Seyyed(t-c) 15:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh, I was not aware that this belief was common in pre-Safavid Iran, thanks for teaching me this, however I know it has some resonance in modern day aqeedah. For example, Hazrat Allamah Tabatabai made a reference to it in a work of his before, claiming that both sects had a divine purpose only mystics could understand. Also, the Ahmadiyya movement has a similar belief as well, though they are an offshoot of Sunnism. --Enzuru 15:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Ahl-e Haqq or Yarí/Yarsan to call it with its proper name is NOT a shia sect. We do not consider ourselves muslim nor do we practice any muslim beliefs, rituals or regard the quran as our holy scripture. This also goes really for the Alevis also. Anyone who has studied the basic beliefs of Yarí (ahl-e haqq) must know that it isnt islamic at all. Also, Yazdanism is a generic term for Alevism, Yezidism and Yarí/"Yarsanism", but it can also reffer to the ancient kurdish religion in wich these three religions emanated from. It has nothing to do with islam or shia islam.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.226.245 (talk) 20:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Yazdanism is a mythical phrase made up by Kurdish nationalists and separatists. It has no place on Wikipedia, except to define how mythical it is. As far as the true beliefs of the Ahl-e-Haqq, please see the writings of Ostad Elahi to clarify that it very well falls under the fold of Islam. --Enzuru 23:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Many Muslim groups consider individuals to be incarnations of God and claiming oneself as an incarnation of God even goes to people like Rumi, they are considered Muslim by many. Also, many groups, including Ismaili, Alevi, Alawi, do not follow the literal five pillars either, in fact, Shi'a Islam altogether has their own rendition of pillars, Five Pillars is only a Sunni concept. As far as the sources we can cite, we have those citing them closer to Islam than saying they are non-Muslim. --Enzuru 02:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I'd really appreciate having an educated person like you register a Wikipedia account, you should consider it! Anyway, I'll let you take out the group again if you'd like. But, I do find it interesting that my friend who is an Alevi, I who am an Ismaili, and you who is Yarsan, have very much in common in our faiths. --Enzuru 02:22, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Sure! If you ever get time do consider coming around here. --Enzuru 03:32, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Yazdanism]] and Twelvers Sufis 

message: What are the relation of these two articles with Shia. The former may relate to Zarvani, an ancient religion of western Persia, and the later is derived from Sabians. I think we should have good proof to relate them to Shia. I've never heared or read their name as branches of Shia. Thus I remove them. Please tell me your source before adding them.--Seyyed(t-c) 01:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, sorry for putting them in there. I was thinking in terms of weird relations. --Enzuru 02:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Yazidi]] and [[Yazdânism]]

message: I have reverted the edits by a user who replaced many links in the template with Arabic expressions, using the Arabic alphabet. Tājik (talk) 18:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL, good job. I never thought I'd see this! --Enzuru 18:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: Bro, I think these martyrs should get a place on the Twelvers Template. My reasons are:
# These martyrs are representative ulema of Twelver Shia, who sacrificed their lives for the cause of Shi'ism. No Twelver group (Akhbari or Shaikhi) denounces them due to their Usooli stance, e.g. 
## Shahid Awwal's al-Lum'ah and Shahid Thani's Sharh al-Lum'ah are of equal significance for Akhbari's and Shaikhi's, as for Usooli's.
## Qazi Noorullah Shustari is equally respected by all Twelver groups, and it is doubted if he was an Usooli due to his too much dependence on the preceding Akhbari ulema.
## Mirza Kamil Dehlavi is equally respected by all Twelver groups, and it is not clear whether he was Usooli or Akhbari, as was common with many of Indian Shia ulema of his times.
# Even if these ulema represent the Usooli school of thought, even then they are candidate for inclusion, as Usooli's represent the majority of Twelvers. If Usooli concepts like Ayatollah and Marja are included in this list, why not the Martyr Ulema?
NEDian (talk) 18:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems like overkill for a template, don't you think? Ogress smash! 20:36, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is notability brother. The institution of the Ayatollah and Marja are rather new, 300 years old, but they've had profound influence on Shi'a Islam. At least 60% of Shi'a Muslims adhere to Usuli Twelver Shi'a Islam, hence do taqleed under an ayatollah. The concept of the the Five Martyrs is new, and not many Twelver Shi'a even know about it. In fact, I don't believe it's a concept as much as simply a book by a scholar. Even if all the groups respect these individuals, they don't have a concept of the the Five Martyrs, and like I said, it doesn't seem to have existed till recently and still isn't diffused among all Twelver Shi'a. I do respect you for not adding them back in there without stating your reasons first. I was even hesitant of the the Five Martyrs article should even exist. At most, if we do prove the Five Martyrs are notable, we should just link to the article itself, not each individual person. If we listed them, we may as well list all those who died at the Battle of Karbala. --Enzuru 00:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "The Five Martyrs" on Twelvers Template

message: Was is the popular opinion of this template I created. I tried to create some sort of section for the topics of Taqlid. Taqlid is a fundamental aspect of Shia Islam and so it should have its own section.
M.K.Muhammadi (talk) 02:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I really like the template design, but taqleed is only important for Usuli, it is not important for the Akhbari or Shaykhi. --Enzuru 02:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I combined your version with the current version. The best of both worlds! --Enzuru 02:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Template 

message: To the unprotecting admin:
Please change
</table>
<noinclude> to </table><noinclude>
Creating extra space.174.3.103.39 (talk) 04:32, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  no wiki 

message: : Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am k6ka Talk to me! See what I have done 17:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New proposed template 

message: This is the official name, not TWELVER.
68.100.166.227 (talk) 23:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Athnā‘ashariyyah 

message: Theology of Twelvers Should be ADDED into your template.
68.100.166.227 (talk) 19:08, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Theology of Twelvers]]  Should be ADDED!! 

message: still missing on the template
68.100.166.227 (talk) 01:38, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Theology of Twelvers]]