Talk:Cowboy/Archive 1

message: Am I supposed to post new discussions at the top or bottom?
Isn't this is against Wikipedia's policies / rules?
" Worldwide, the term "cowboy" can be used as an adjective in a derogatory sense to describe someone who is violent, impulsive, or who behaves in a hot-headed and rash manner. For example, TIME Magazine had a cover article about George W. Bush's "Cowboy Diplomacy," and Bush has been described in European newspapers as a "cowboy". "
I recall something about TIME Magazine writing it, but I did not see any sources cited.  I am unsure how this is a neutral or relevant example.  -Looks- more like a attempt to insult our current president.  I think it is off topic.  Anybody else? Dprabon 02:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: New topics are most easily created by clicking on that little "+" tab at the top.  As far as "cowboy" as a negative term goes, it probably needs to stay.   We can probably find a dozen sources for the GWB=Cowboy thing, maybe add a tag as a reminder.  But remember, Wikipedia isn't just for Americans. it is worldwide.  The section is relevant, GWB HAS been called a "cowboy," and it is a useful example of how the phrase is used.  I suppose the paragraph could be softened up a little, but the bottom line is that it IS how the American president is described in some circles.  I can see some wisdom to deleting the word "violent," from that sentence.  That's a bit extreme for describing the use of "cowboy" in a negative sense.  Rash, impulsive and hot-headed is pretty much standard description of "being a little too cowboy," though--even in cowboy land where I live.  Montanabw 04:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negative associations 

message: I changed this page from a redirect to a disambiguation page, so as to match the "cowgirl"  
page.  The woman on top postion is also refered to as the "cowboy sex position" (ride him like a cowboy), and that page already redirected to woman on top.  
21:40  7 Feb, 2005
:Strong disagree.  "Cowboy", the occupation is iconic, that it is also the name of a sexual position by those who use such jargon is extremely minor.  The cowhand article should actually be at "Cowboy".  Quill 23:26, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked the links and there is no cowboy position. The editor is either misinformed or intentionally vandalizing. I'll go ahead and change the redirect back. There does seem to be a need for a disambiguation page though; to talk about how the term is used in the UK--I'll probably call it Cowboy (disambiguation). Frank101 04:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cowboy Page 

message: True or false: although this word is masculine in American English, it is generic in other kinds of English. Please suggest moving the article to the gender-neutral term Cowhand, with both Cowboy and Cowgirl being re-directs. Any objections?? 66.32.95.180 01:20, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I object.  I think it would be a good idea to create the article Cowhand and the three should co-exist and link to each other appropriately.  Cowboy and Cowgirl are both worthy of individual articles and can be expanded.  I don't agree that the three should be merged.  - Tεxτurε 04:23, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, currently cowgirl re-directs here. This certainly is sexist. 66.32.97.243 21:24, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

text: What does "hyper-masculine" mean?? 66.245.5.89 19:26, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably just a poor choice of words. "very masculine". Quadell (talk) 19:32, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
I for one would prefer a cowboy entry. for one thing the term 'cowboy' in the uk is iconic of a character from the wild west and the term cowhand is not at all applicable in the U.K. we have farmers that look after cows and cowherds but no cowhands. we do however have cowboys, they dress up in wild west style clothing and buy country and western music.
but my main objection to it is that it makes the addition of an entry for 'cowboy' (being an untrustworthy or unscrupulous tradesman in the U.K.)impossible. I considered wether this was simply a phrase and therefore not eligible but came to the conclusion that as there were more cowboy plumbers in the uk than cowboy enthusiasts and that both were equally recognisable to themselves and others, it probably should be in the pedia.
as far as the reclassification being based on gender goes I agree with Quadell cowhand for the agricultural profession and cowboy for film genre, icon etc.
after all John Wayne nor Yul Brynner were ever cowhands.
Cowhand is merely a subset of the diverse definition of Cowboy. Cowboys are more than cowhands, they are iconic legends of film, poets, presidents, farriers etc, to limit them to cowhand with redirects based on some gender issue detracts from the greater cultural and historic meaning of cowboy. --Loganis 19:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  True or false?? 

message: That's an interesting discussion under True or False, above.  For the record, I weigh in against empty 'political correctness'; I don't know of any English speakers who would refer to 'cowboys' (or girls!) as 'cowhands' in their regular parlance; in fact, I can think of only one example of a use of the word 'cowhand' in popular culture.  I do think that this is handled very well in the article, though.
If you want to bring up sexism, however, how about the fact that the entry at cowgirl says more about a sexual position than it does about female cowhands?  Quill 20:40, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: *A better gender-neutral term for what?  (NOT trying to be sarcastic or funny)  If you meant for 'cowhand', I don't think that there is one and my point wasn't to find one;  I just meant that I didn't think 'cowhand' was in common use.  As I said, I think the treatment of the issue in the article is very well done.  Quill 06:07, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexism Revisited 

message: Cowhand is a poor name for this page. It violates the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)—"Use the most common name of a person or thing". I know of no cowboy who finds the term cowboy offensive, even Indian cowboys (see All Indian Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association). If no one objects, I will move this article and its talk page to Cowboy in a couple of weeks. -Frank101 17:54, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, good luck with that.  It won't bother me, but based on the issues raised regarding sexism, above, some folks will probably object.  I'd read through the comments first--seems to me as though this might have existed at cowboy and then was moved. Quill 23:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I did check the page history when I first happened across this article a few months back and thought it odd then. When I came across it again I did a bit more investigation and concluded it was improperly named. I don't feel that a consensus was reached in any case. Most talk appears to be about having two pages if a cowhand article is needed, not about moving the cowboy page here.  A real indication that this page is wrongly named is that of the almost 200 article that point to this page, only two (2) are cowhand in the actual article and even those 2 probably mean cowboy. That's excepting the redirect pages of course. And more than 175 articles actually point to cowboy and are then redirected here. About the only time anyone actually says cowhand is to rhyme with Rio Grande. As for the sexism charge (prejudice on the basis of sex), someone who understands will have to clarify what that means as it applies to naming conventions at Wikipedia. The page has many errors that can't be fixed until it's determined if this page is to be about cowboys or about ranch workers in general. Frank101 16:07, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page is poorly named 

message: After Reading through the text on the Cowhand page I have added the words North American as the 2nd & 3rd words because it seems clear to me that the term is a regional one, but had not been identified as one.
In fact the subsequent paragraphs go to some lengths to give other regional variants for Mexico, Spain and even Australia. The previous text gave the impression that cowhands or cowboys is the default terminology for one who tends cattle, whereas this is actually only the North American term.
perhaps the disambiguation page when it arrives could also list the counterparts from other nations.
I appreciate that the phrase is a bit controversial atm. and that the term cowhand simply refers to "one who tends a ranch" etc in America - Whilst the term Cowboy is fairly well internationalised as a genre of fiction and film. As it stands I believe that Cowhand in the strict definition of the term outlined on the page is far more regional than the term Cowboy which unfortunately does not seem to have an entry. until it does, Cowhand should not be misleadingly referenced to be an international definition.
DavidP 18:27, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A North American Phenomenon 

message: The article talks of the "North American" cowboy but the word Canada is not in the article at all.  It is really about US cowboys. That's fine since the cowboy as icon is strongly associated with the US.  However, in Canada, especially Alberta we also have cowboys.  This area was once home to open-land ranching and is still a major cattle-producing area.  Infact, there are more cattle in Alberta than people.  As well, Alberta Hosts the Calgary Stampede and the Canadian Finals Rodeo among others.  Canada should at least get a mention.Kevlar67 13:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geography 

message: I'm not quite sure how to bring it into this article, but it seems Cowpuncher should me merged into this article.  There's not much information there, but enough to at least make for a sentence or two.  I've applied the proper tags according to WP:MM. - Chris 19:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cowpuncher is a short-enough entry, and in my mind is just another word for cowboy, so I support this merge. Wisekwai 01:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cowpuncher 

message: It seems to me the cowboy in US legends is equivalent to the knight in European legends. Any thoughts on that?Cameron Nedland 02:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cowboy vs Knight ?

message: This section looks lost at the moment - suggest removing the image shack link to pictures rather than replacing it correctly formatted.
The section seems to have been opened but with no text for some time, well I couldn't find any useful contribution in it, perhaps best removed altogether for now?
4wd 22:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popular Culture 

message: I think it is worth pointing out that inherantly, a horse can go almost anywhere a cow can. It eats what a cow eats. Whereas a motor bike can get bogged or otherwise stuck where cows wont and it needs external supplies.Garrie 05:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the horse 

message: : "In the early 1600s, the Spanish crown, and later independent Mexico, began offering empresario grants in what would later be Texas to US citizens who agreed to become Mexican citizens and convert to Catholicism."
The passage raises some questions:
* Where did they find US citizens in the early 1600's? ha ha
* What were the stipulations before Mexico was independent (did they have to become Spanish citizens?)
A Pattern O 04:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, wonder if that's a typo and should read "1800."  I think Mexico became independent about 1821?  If you can find a source, go ahead and correct the date and anything else that's inaccurate.  I'm starting to clean up this article a bit too, but as I am personally more familiar with the post-civil war history of the cowboy, anyone who knows more about the Spanish stuff should feel free to dive in! I suggest we also start to try to improve the verifiability of this article by footnoting anything we add that can be attributed to a source.  Montanabw 19:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious: history section 

message: los vaqueros were and are great people in the mexican heratige —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.160.125.139 (talk) 22:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  vaqueros 

message: I'll think on how to word this, but I think their specific tools of their trade are as important to defining the cowboy as any other. I'll get back to ya.
The page could reference some cowboy literature as well.
:(Remember to sign your posts with four tildes)
:Be sure to read this WHOLE article first, there is already a long section on saddles, horses, clothing, pickup trucks, etc...one problem is article length. This article is getting bloated, though maybe further reorganization of sections would do the trick. IMHO, the cowgirl section could be a whole different article, except that it was, once, and someone merged it back into this one, so not going there for now. Montanabw 06:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Literature?  Scholarly works or the genre?  OH  NOOOOOOO!  Please, not Louis L'Amour! <grin>, though there may well be a place for a NEW article titled "Cowboy Literature" that could do this.  (If there isn't a Cowboy poetry article, there should be!). Preferably with a link to Wally McRae's classic, "Reincarnation." <grin> Montanabw 06:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tools

message: It seems very unlikely that "buckaroo"" would come from Arabic for at least two reasons.  First, so much else of cowboy lingo is derivative of Spanish.  (Granted, some of Spanish comes from Arabic, but not vacca which is Latin). Second, the pronunciation of vaquero in Spanish, and especially, in the archaic Spanish which was prevalent in what is now the southwest US, was more like a "b" sound (baquero), very close indeed to the sound of buckaroo.
The online etymology source is confused: they have bakara derived from vaquero!  That ref. should be dropped.  The second is inaccessible without a subscription, but the first page which displays gratis points to African languages and meanings which are not as close as vaquero clearly is. Tmangray 22:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the phrasing is unclear, it can be clarified...the point is that Arabic language came to Spain and influenced Spanish, Spanish language came to America and influenced many English words.  Buckaroo is derived from vaquero, which appears to be derived both from Latin and Arabic words for cow.  Vacca in Latin and Bakara in Arabic.  If you are correct about the "B" pronounciation in old Spanish, then this is even more apt to be correct.  The online source is pretty light, it is more support for the other two, I'll take another look at it, though.  The articles in question are annoying in only showing the first page, but the Google search had the necessary information in context, and the article can be obtained from a public library as well.  The first one was arguing that the African words people thought applied to buckaroo were totally wrong and that the Spanish/Arabic origins were correct, the second article was basically a letter to the editor about the first article providing additional support.  One or the other mentions that the OED also gives the origin of Buckaroo as bakara and vaquero, not the African words.  The word Hackamore --> Jaquima --> Hakima is another example of an equine-related word that went from Arabic to Spanish to English.  It's actually all quite fascinating.  Arab culture also brought the Arab and Barb horses that crossed on the native Iberian animals to create some of the incredibly fine animals the Spanish were known for throughout the Middle Ages and Colonial era. the intermixture of the cultures is very interesting to track.  Montanabw 06:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Spanish culture acquired a number of things from the Arabs, but the authoritative source for Spanish words, the Spanish Royal Academy, does not credit vacca to Arabic---and I might add, they are not slackers when it comes to giving etymological credit to Arabic when it is due.  It might be that the Arabic word for cow derived from Latin as did the Spanish vaca.  It could very well have happened in Spain.  In view of the authority of the Spanish Royal Academy, I strongly suggest dropping the Arabic derivation. Tmangray 03:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, likewise the OED is usually the authority on the English language, but sometimes they get it just plain wrong when looking at American English words derived from things like Native American languages (for that matter, look how much someone screwed up "buckaroo," thinking it was African when it is actually Spanish).  Given that Mexican Spanish and Castilian Spanish are not precisely the same, I feel it is acceptable to leave in both views, perhaps with language suggesting there are two views on the issue.  Keep in mind two additional factors: 1) vaqueros and cowboys were not real high on the social scale and that the popular venacular may have differed (as it does now) from what is considered "correct."  2) The Arab influence on Spanish horsemanship was considerable.  The animals, equipment, and riding style they brought to the Iberian peninsula all were nothing short of revolutionary; the way the two cultures merged and integrated is a fascinating study in itself--just comparing things like the la brida and la jineta forms of riding is fascinating.  But enough for now. The citation is verifiable, the reference may be debatable, but as long as the reader is fully informed, he or she can make up her own mind on the matter. Montanabw 19:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What we need is someone or some source which deals with the Spanish Moorish dialect of Arabic.  This dialect varied from standard Arabic which today has no such word even close to bakara meaning "cowherd".  Recall that the Arabs of the middle ages excelled at preserving and developing elements of the ancient Greek and Roman cultures.  You will, for example, find Arabic words relating to astronomy---names of stars for example---which are simply Arabized Greek names, taken directly from Greek texts. I suspect that the Arabs and their later Moorish cousins may have acquired the Latin word for cow and the cognate for cowherd from the Latin-speaking Iberians.  The OED does not seem helpful in this regard. Tmangray 02:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Someday, like Cinderella's prince, our expert will come.  In the meantime, I guess just sourcing every statement will have to do. Cheers. Montanabw 16:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, the online etym. dictionary is not supportive of the point made as it has bakara coming FROM vaquero, which is probably correct.  So it's deleted.  The extra stuff about Islamic rule in Spain is too POV in the context added.  The counterargument that Arabic was influenced by Greek and Latin as well, thus being the origin of any Arabic dialect word for cow, could be added, but that would overweigh the section.  I reduced the verbiage to a phrase at the end of a prev. sentence. Tmangray (talk) 22:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I"m OK with how you edited the article.  It's well-phrased and gives some credit to Arab influence on horsemanship, which was my only real concern here.  (And the Arabs obtained many of their horsemanship skills from the Ancient Persians, but I digress...).  Montanabw(talk) 04:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: A number of times i have see things with cowboys wearing jeans yet jeans were created by levi's in 1853 how does that work out
Gaogier
:Not quite. See Jeans#History. -- Donald Albury 21:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cowboys wearing jeans? 

message: in this article it says that helmets are not allowed to be used in rodeo competitions. i read an article recently that said that helmets were starting to be introduced but many people prefer their hat to the helmet. also, i was watching a rodeo on tv and i saw a few people wearing helmets. is this article just not updated or is my information incorrect?
OGOLD (talk) 22:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll check.  I don't think it a question of "not allowed," its more a problem of "not required."  Also varies between sanctioning organizations, I think that Little Britches Rodeo may now require them, but I know for a fact that PBR does not.  But I'll review how things are worded and clarify if needed. Montanabw(talk) 03:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: helmets in competition