Talk:Karl Marx/Archive 2

message: I've removed the following because it seems irrelevent and self-promotional
"A small number of people in the free software movement contend that free software represents a new mode of production that has the potential to supersede the capitalist mode of production. (see Project Oekonux)." AndyL 16:21, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point about the self promotion. The relevence is that free software is not scarce, has loads of use value, next to no exchange value and it's production as a whole represents an incalculable amount of labour time -- it's hard to think of many other things for which this is true... This document on Free Software and Market Relations is interesting on the subject of marxism and free software...
Free software is no doubt one of many important differences between today's economy and the economy twenty or a hundred years ago.  In any event, it certainly does not mark a new mode of production in Marxian terms, and is not at all relevant to an article on Marx. Slrubenstein
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I corrected the sloppy errors in TDC's addition, and cut the non-relevant material, and added the dominant POV for balance.  However, I am still skeptical that TDC's account of Cowan and Perry's argument is accurate.  TDC is such an inept reader I suspect he misunderstood them.  I would like to have the actual citations of their articles in which they develop these arguments, please.  Otherwise I will delete the reference entirely.  In the meantime, since TDC at least provided sources, I am leaving the anti-semitism charge in.  Please don't delete it just yet, let's see the citations and see if they are really making the claims TDC is attributing to them, first. Slrubenstein
Where do you want the portions of the work for one. The "dominant" POV for the charges are made by marxists like Draper. It is also not just one writing of Marx that his anti-semitism comes out. TDC 00:20, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey jackass, for someone who isn't a "soft-minded artsy moron," and for someone who didn't "choose a [profession], like sociology, that [has] no demand or real value in society," you seem waste a lot of time by bothering us. 172 02:56, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sory, am I bothering you. I should stop that right away I suppose.TDC 16:56, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: Well, that would be easier for you so I would understand if that is all you want to do.  If you have time, I'd appreciate it if you could give the quotes -- not from Marx but from the three scholars you mention as accusing Marx of being an anti-semite.  (I don't mean we need to put them in the article itself, but I would like to know more what they say and why).  I realize I am asking you to do a lot so if you don't want to how about just the names of the books and articles (and the jourinal in which they appear) they wrote that you are referrring to, and if you can page numbers.  Thanks, Slrubenstein
Well, they are not so much quotes. Muravchik's reasons, for example, come from 15 or so pages out of a book of his. It would be difficult to condense his thoughts down to a one paragraph quote. TDC 18:30, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion

message: It currently only has six undated (and volume-less) entries which do not follow a chronological order and fail to mention instances of co-authorship with Engels, nor his posthumous contribution to Marx's works. Here is the original list:
*The German Ideology
*The Communist Manifesto
*Capital
*Grundrisse
*The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon
I am revising the list for a total of 23 works, with dates provided in brackets, and in square brackets, noting whenever it was in collaboration with or entailed posthumous efforts by Engels. My list (which is -not- exhaustive) is as follows:
* Critique of Hegel?s Philosophy of Right (1843)
* On the Jewish Question (1843)
* Notes on James Mill (1844)
* Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts (1844)
* Theses on Feuerbach (1845)
* The German Ideology [with Engels] (1845-46)
* The Poverty of Philosophy (1846-47)
* Wage-Labour and Capital (1847)
* The Communist Manifesto [with Engels] (1847-48)
* The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte (1852)
* Grundrisse (1857-58) 
* A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy (1859)
* Theories of Surplus Value, 3 volumes (1862)
* Wages, Price and Profit (1865)
* Capital vol. 1 (1867)
* The Civil War in France (1871)
* Critique of the Gotha Programme (1875)
* Ethnological Notebooks (1879-80)
* Notes on Wagner (1883)
* Capital, vol.2 [posthumously, by Engels] (1893)
* Capital, vol.3 [posthumously, by Engels] (1894)
El_C
Thanks, that was much needed. I added the section hastily because there wasn't even one previously, but I forgot to update it later. -- Simonides 18:38, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updating Bibliography 

message: 172, why do you think the following sentence is POV: the policies and actions of various so-called communist states, which typically claimed to follow some form of Marxism, have done much to destroy Marx's reputation. ?
:Read my comment above -- I was the first to cut this remark.  This is an article on Marx, not the PRC or USSR or even Marxism.  The significance of the legacy of the USSR is a complex topic that belongs in other articles, not here.  As stated, the remark is contentious and inappropriate.  To turn it into a balanced neutral statement would take so much space it would unbalance the article. Slrubenstein
It is relevant to say how Marx's ideas are perceived today, and why.  Not much depth is needed to communicate this information.  The present version in fact rather understates matters in service of this. VeryVerily 22:05, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you throw in "mARx wAz T3h eVil" while you're at it? Slrubenstein is right. If we're going to discuss the USSR and the PRC, that would require an entire dedicated section - not a single weasely POV sentence. Keep in mind that their connection (or lack thereof) to Marx is highly disputed, and the way in which "Marx's ideas are perceived today" differs widely from person to person. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 22:19, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Still cite the fact many people died in supposed Marxist governments.--198 01:33, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm striving for NPOV, but you can't just leave out important factors that relate to Marx.--198 03:56, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last 172's edit