Talk:Carol (music)

message: I know there are non-English Carols and so the article could benefit from a knowledgeble contributor in that area to revise the English/British bias and maybe to add something about other language carols. 
And are there non-Christian carols? Laying aside for the moment the "pagan" or "folk" elements of the ostensibly Christian carols, are there any songs linked with other faiths that could properly be described as carols? If so then I'd like to learn about them. If not then the article could be revised to define a carol as form of song linked with Christianity, rather than simply with "religion". I am interested in clarity and more information. 
MrSeanBrook 04:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See my comments on rondelli below. The carol in late mediaeval times was celebratory, for example the Agincourt Carol. It has an essentially lay heritage within the folk tradition, but probably predates the Christian heritage: for example The Boar's Head Carol is generally reckoned to be German, thanks to Praetorius. I would not, therefore, look for similar forms in Eastern creeds. An interesting case could be made by such as Orlando Ortiz for the integration of pre-Columban music in South America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.148.219 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

text: I would support merging Kolyadka and Koledari, which are Slavic words for carol/carolers, into this article and/or Christmas Carol. The latter seems to partially duplicate Kolyadka/Koledari already. PaulT2022 (talk) 01:13, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non English and Non Western Carols 

message: "The word carol is derived from the Old French word carole, a circle dance ..."
What is the root of the word? Is it 'car'? What does it (the root) mean? Is there any connection to the English word 'car'? 
The English spelling is a mess: 'cirkle' is spellt with 'c' pronounced as 's'; 'curve' is spellt with 'c' but pronounced as 'k' .... and so forth. Let's write these words phonetically: 'kirkle' and 'kurve'.
Make a small experiment now: say these words aloud and listen to the sounds you make. You'll find, the second sound doesn't have an English phonetic: it is an 'ő' sound. Let's write the words phonetically again: 'kőrkle and kőrve. Since the English does not pronounce the trailing 'e' it can be dropped: kőrkl and kőrv. Now the root of the words is clear: kőr. But what does it mean? 
Both of these words are to do with a cirkle. Indeed, 'kőr' means cirkle. 
Now it is that vowels change easily: ker, kar, kur, kir have the same meaning. Therefore 'carol' -> 'karol' -> 'körol' -> köröl is the same.
Another experiment: say aloud 'k' and 'g'. Feel how you are changing the position of the very back of your tongue. These two sounds are very-very close to each-other. Indeed, they used to be interchangable. Some long time ago, at the down of speach there was no difference. Therefore the 'k' can be changed to 'g': ger, gar, gur, gir and still, the words are to do with a 'cirkle'. 
Word-roots, like trees grow branches: something is added to the root and the meaning is extended. All these words are part of a large word-tree. Not all of them found their way into Latin, French, English, German and others. Some examples for Latin -> English and French are above. In German 'kirche' means church and 'garten' -> 'garden' have the same root too. 
So how do we know the origin of the root-word. Easy: which language has the largest word-tree around it? That is the Hungarian. 
The word 'curve' in Hungarian is two words: 'kör iv' written as one word 'köriv' and it means the same as the English version. 
Is there any connection to the English word 'car'? In Hungarian 'gör' is a root of words to do with 'rolling'. It is now clear that 'gör' -> 'gar' -> 'car' mean the same. Hungarian has more vowels than English.  The sound 'é' stands for the sound in 'gear'. Phonetically: 'gér' and it should be obvious now that the root is the same 'kōr', 'ker', 'kér' -> 'gōr', 'ger', 'gér'. Indeed, in the gear-box there are gears and they are circular.
'Karol' also means 'folding arms' as well as putting one's arm around someone's shoulder. Many dances use this element.
Finally, in Hungarian 'karol' also means 'cuddle' thus the carol is not just a circular dance where the dancers 'karol' each other but the tradition holds the village, the community together by passing the culture to the younger generation via those songs and dances. Bill, 2007-Dec-11  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.95.112.212 (talk) 01:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The origins of the Carole lie in the monastic observance of the Rondello dance, where exactly the dance forms you describe were used in the tracing of labyrinths often found in monasteries (Chartres, Groenendael) in the late mediaeval period.Craig Wright, The Maze and the Warrior One passage of the labyrinth equated to one pilgrimage - but the dance often made the distance covered many times that of the floor plan.
Western Europe's musical heritage, from the spread and development of the symphonie, seems to have followed the Crusaders' overland pilgrimage route through the Balkans, and so it is quite possible that your Hungarian version is simply another branch of the tree.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.148.219 (talk) 20:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the word 

message: I have changed the date of the Coventry Carol to before its first recorded text, as the date cited, its first appearance in score form, is over ten years after the Coventry mystery plays, which it was part of, were suppressed in the 1578 ban on strolling players, an early piece of anti-terrorist legislation. Indeed, its Maristic text is utterly Roman Catholic and therefore quite unlikely to have gained any acceptance in Elizabethan England. Its musical form is most probably that of the middle or late fifteenth century, although it is not impossible that this was a cantus-firmus revisit of something much older.
I removed The Holly and The Ivy as an example of eighteenth century folk carol as the earliest recorded attributions somewhat antedate that period (bucolic folk song starts from about 1740, encouraged by the upper-class champêtre movement) and indicate that it too is almost certainly older. It is entirely consistent with the folk tradition that the language would be continuously updated.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.148.219 (talk) 20:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date corrections