Talk:Krokodeilos Kladas

message: Have we got an (approximate) birth date for the guy, to fill in the basic bio information in the lead? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth and death dates? 

message: Hello; I've just dropped in from WP:RfC to offer a comment. First of all, thanks for staying civil and polite, and sticking to the sources - I think that the best path out of a dispute goes in that direction. Would you consider a slight change to the article structure to avoid the problem? Perhaps we could simply remove the controversial ethnic/national label from the lede, so it says something like this:
:Krokodeilos Kladas (), variously also Krokondeilos or Korkondelos, born about 1425, was a military leader in the Morea (medieval Peloponnese) in the latter 15th century.
And then maybe add one or two sentences discussing his background in more detail - based on the sources you have found - further down the article. Would that be an acceptable compromise? bobrayner (talk) 02:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I also think it better to move this to "Krokondylos", since "Krokodeilos" was more of a derogatory nickname. Plus, it must be made clear that his identity with the Krokondylos of 1460 is by no means certain (even the PLP contains a question-mark next to this statement). Constantine   ✍  13:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure this lead is ok.Alexikoua (talk) 14:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This lead is ok and the issue of ethnicity can be addressed below. Btw another rs for ethnicity is Arnavut lider Klada'nın girişimleri(Initiatives of the Albanian leader Klada), so both possibilities should be added. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:49, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment from an uninvolved editor

message: Since there are a lot of discussions, have you guys established a stable and less-disputable version? I see there is a later edit from an unsigned editor,  21:51, 18 March 2013‎ 108.5.45.22 which invalidates all the discussions done here and creates the stage for running them from start. Mondiad (talk) 06:23, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Further changes?

message: I believe we all ought to be more careful with sources in general, but especially in articles that will with certainty create disagreement. On the 15th, two sources were added to support an Albanian background for Krokodeilos Kladas. One is by Kristo Frashëri, who is counted among Albanian nationalist historians; but that is not the main issue with this source. The rationale behind his conclusion is flawed. Here is the relevant quote:
He seems to be claiming that according to one Venetian source, a voivode of the local Sanjak-bey was Albanian, and a relative of the Bozikis family. He continues by saying that one of the Bozikis' family members, was Mexas Bozikis, who is described as leader of the Kladas community, and according to him, this means that Krokodeilos Kladas was also Albanian. Specifically, this was used in the article to describe Krokodeilos as a member of an Albanian tribe or tribal community. First of all, Mexas Bozikis wasn't a relative of Krokodeilos Kladas, but one of his allies, who came from Nafplio as a stratioti captain along with Theodore Bua, to assist Kladas; i added this in the article, in order to avoid confusion. Furthermore, the original phrase (capo de la setta de i Cladioti) uses "setta", which doesn't translate as tribe or tribal community, but as "sect", and is obviously a reference to Kladas' group of insurgents, of whom Mexas Bozikis was in fact one of the captains; see the related term settatore which means "partisan". Not to mention that we have a Venetian source from the same period (November 5th 1480), that describes Kladas directly as Greek:
 – Korre (2018): pp. 524-525
The second source is by Kurt Treptow. Treptow specializes in Romanian history, and his reference is in passing; also, see what Maleschreiber wrote some months ago, referring specifically to the case of Krokodeilos Kladas (diff), which i also agree with.
Since we have a far more recent source that is based on considerably more extensive research on the family and its background, i chose to remove all references to Greek and Albanian from the lede, "Biography", and Categories sections. Also, i used Peloponnesian in the lede, as something more neutral. It turns out that the family was most likely of Turcopole ultimate origin, and integrated in the Byzantine society of the Morean Despotate. I added this under the "Family" section. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:37, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There were 3 sources that support an Albanian origin actually. In any case, I do not disagree with your proposal as far as the source you refer to is a recent one that apparently has done more reasearch than the others on his background. Does a Turcopole origin mean that his ancestors came from Anatoalia or does it mean his ancestors came from Ottoman territories? Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:03, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The author actually uses "Ottoman ultimate origin" early in her work, but that is obviously a misnomer, as she elaborates later with more details. In summary, she traced the family back to a group, composed of the descendants and soldiers of Kaykaus II (sultan of the Sultanate of Rum who was deposed in 1262), who acted as mercenaries (turcopoles) in the troops of Michael VIII and Andronikos II Palaiologos. Specifically, it came to the Peloponnese at the beginning of 1263 as part of the army of sebastokrator Constantine Palaiologos (half-brother of Michael VIII), in order to face the Franks (Principality of Achaea) in the war of 1263-1264. After the war, it received lands and was fully integrated in the Byzantine society of the Morean Despotate, through alliances and marriages made with local archontes, to the point that it managed to gain possession of extensive pieces of land with paroikoi settled there. Precisely because of the power it had amassed, we see its members as privileged interlocutors of the Venetians, after the fall of the Despotate to the Ottomans. This information can also be included in the article as additional details. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:21, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  thank you for your clarification and your addition of relevant content to the article. The context and meaning of a possible Turcopole ancestry for Kladas is now clearer. The Turcopole article itself is not much helpful, and any work to improve it would be much welcome. I wish a happy and prosperous New Year for you and your dear ones, btw. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:20, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Happy New Year to you as well. Wishing you and your loved ones health and prosperity. Demetrios1993 (talk) 00:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, much appreciated. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you Albanian? 5.206.233.131 (talk) 21:06, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent edits