Talk:Bolivarian Revolution

message: In the reliable sources included, it states that following the Bolivarian Revolution many Venezuelans left the country. Is there another place for this information? Since the sources state that is related to the Bolivarian Revolution, then where should this material be added?
: I have a hard time believing you actually think this article is an appropriate place for this information. Stop POV pushing.--Riothero (talk) 04:34, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It is just cited information from a reliable source, not a POV.--ZiaLater (talk) 05:19, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: i am not questioning the information about the rise in venezuelan emigration, only the appropriateness of placing this information in the current article (about a particular social and political movement). --Riothero (talk) 17:53, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: you say you want to use the talk pages more, but you never engage my concerns, or use reasoned argument to explain your position. what the heck? --Riothero (talk) 05:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

text: the population change does not "involve" the bolivarian revolution. it is not one of the ideological principles of this social and political movement, not is it related to any of the movement's social programs. the only connection comes from opinions of government critics. to defend the connection on this basis is POV-pushing par excellence.  btw, el nuevo herald is not a reliable source.--Riothero (talk) 06:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, cited in reliable sources. It says that following the BR, millions of Venezuelans left.--ZiaLater (User talk:ZiaLatertalk) 06:18, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

text: Add a POV tag if you want to. I will find more sources.--ZiaLater (talk) 06:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

text: Could you help us with this? Maybe an article with the same title that is linked from this article?--ZiaLater (talk) 16:32, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: There is precedence for an overall emigration/diaspora topic—i.e., Brazilian diaspora or Emigration from Ecuador, although the general trend seems to be creating articles specifically covering emigration from one country to another.  Venezuela already has a template for it.  Creating an article on the so-called "Bolivarian diaspora" would come across, IMO, as a political attack piece by implying all Venezuelan emigration is due to the revolution.  The reason Rio disputes the emigration content in this article seems to be that the content is suffering from the correlation equals causation fallacy.  Are the sources used here all explicitly blaming emigration on Chavez's policies?  I haven't looked through them, but any that don't do so don't belong here—merely stating correlation isn't good enough—and it's not a good idea to carry that problem over into it's own article.  A stand-alone article should cover the overall emigration topic without dedicating itself to political blaming.   Mbinebri  talk ← 01:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the help Mbinebri. The Newsweek article titled "Hugo Chavez is Scaring Away Talent" states that "now after a decade of the so-called Bolivarian revolution, tens of thousands of disillusioned Venezuelan professionals have had enough. Artists, lawyers, physicians, managers and engineers are leaving the country by droves, while those already abroad are scrapping plans to return". In the El Universal article, it explains that many leave due to insecurity, but also due to policies. Stated policy issues include " the current economic crisis, associated to policy issues. Government control policies have resulted in the closure of businesses and the loss of sources of jobs" and "Lack of liberties, i.e. not being able to speak your mind".--ZiaLater (talk) 04:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

text: The Reuters article titled "Venezuelans, fleeing Chavez, seek U.S. safety net" also explains how Chavez and his policies may have encouraged Venezuelans to leave.--ZiaLater (talk) 04:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are good examples of stated causation.  It would obviously be worth mentioning/discussing in an article on Venezuelan emigration.   Mbinebri  talk ← 22:52, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: May I suggest "Demographics of Venezuela" as a more appropriate place for information about rising emigration--as opposed to a stand-alone article--which would seem to give undue weight to what I recognize is a real issue.--Riothero (talk) 00:33, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know.  That article seems concise and neutral, and and mostly about listing brief statistics.  A giant "Chavez's crappy policies drove everyone away!" section would feel highly misplaced IMO.   Mbinebri  talk ← 03:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That is why I am asking if we should create an article for this info and then place a small summary of it here since the two are related. I don't think we should have a large section here or on the demographics article since it  would be large and POV. An article may be the best way to go. What do you think Mbinebri?--ZiaLater (talk) 05:16, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright Mbinebri, its done. I have created the article since there are no locations that would neutrally portray the subject. Take a look to see how it is before we make further decisions please.--ZiaLater (talk) 02:57, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The neutral location for such content would be, as I already said, within a "Venezuelan emigration" article, but once again you couldn't go the NPOV route.  Your need to reduce Venezuela-related topics to disparagement of the government is literally insatiable.  You even cite this discussion in the new article's edit summary as the reason for creating it as if there was a consensus here, when the only one who wanted the topic presented in such a way was you.  I would ask if you're really this dense, but you add "no accusations" in the edit summary because apparently you can see as well as anybody that this looks like more of your anti-government crusade.   Mbinebri  talk ← 04:46, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Mbinebri's point is that such POV would be misplaced anywhere on Wikipedia. If you were to take a neutral approach to the topic (READ: entirely different from your approach here, which is to attribute blame for the emigration), that'd be a different story... --Riothero (talk) 05:26, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Mbinebri, you did not mention to put the information "within a "Venezuelan emigration" article" anywhere, maybe you misread where you were talking about the Emigration from Ecuador article. I did not know that a Venezuelan emigration article existed if you meant to place it in one. You also may have been insisting to make one, though you said that "the general trend seems to be creating articles specifically covering emigration from one country to another". I admit that I may have misread our discussion as well since you said this may come out as an attack article. The way you described correlation does not equal causation seemed as if you were saying that if the sources explicitly stated that the Bolivarian Revolution was the cause (which they did), then the content would be acceptable. So before you accuse me of not going a "NPOV route" or of a "anti-government crusade", please just state what is wrong as we are both trying to our best here. I created the article so it would not be undue on the Bolivarian Revolution article and so it could be more neutral since I have since deleted the extra information in the article. The reason I placed that "no accusations" in my edit caption is so we could all edit civilly instead of continuing this. I have never tried to accuse anyone of anything because I know how it feels to be the accused and it really does not help with anything at all.--ZiaLater (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population change 

message: I've moved this chunk of new text to talk for examination and cleanup.  First, large portions are uncited.  Second, it reads like an essay.  Third, some copyvio checks vs. offline sources are in order because of the tone of the writing, dropped in by one new editor; some spot checks of what the sources say compared to what was added would help.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Talk:Bolivarian Revolution/sandbox1
I put the text above into a sandbox to begin cleaning up.  Does anyone have access to any of these sources?  There is a lot of uncited text, and I've removed some of the essay portions.  Much of what is expressed is author opinion, so whatever is kept must be attributed (as in, according to John Doe, writing in Book Title (2007), such and so text ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from article for cleanup 

message: The "Bolivarian Revolution" under Chávez also refocused Venezuelan foreign policy on Latin American economic and social integration by enacting bilateral trade and reciprocal aid agreements, including his so-called "oil diplomacy", which provided cheap oil to poor neighbouring nations. Chávez regularly portrayed his movement's objectives as being in intractable conflict with neocolonialism and neoliberalism.  Beyond Latin America, the oil tool of Chávez had international reach.
A main feature of the Chávez regime's policy focused on the employ of oil revenues to accomplish objectives domestically and in terms of foreign policy.  In promoting the Bolivarian brand of socialism, oil was used to support policies in line with the aims of the socialist campaign and to confront the neoliberal model that has characterized international relations for decades.  Included in these projects were undertakings such as those listed in Section 3.  Regionally and internationally, however, oil was used tangibly and intangibly through economic exchanges and the support of ideological alliances.
It is important to understand that Bolivarian socialism under Chávez and its ability to further the socialist cause hinged on oil revenues.  Among the earliest objectives of the Chávez administration was the need to bring Petróleos de Venezuela (PdVSA) under greater state control in order to redirect revenues toward the state, itself.  The reason for this was two-fold:  first, it would diminish the longstanding U.S. ties to PdVSA and the neoliberal infrastructure which had been predominant; second, consolidated state control would allow the Chávez government to use revenues as it deemed appropriate.  The reforms to consolidate power meant massive layoffs and a restructuring of the company’s personnel and business models.  Under the new socialist agenda, those who had longstanding ties with the U.S. and its neoliberal strategies were dismissed from senior and intermediate positions so that supporters of the new administration could replace capitalist elements of the work force.Nikolas Kozloff,  Hugo Chávez: Oil, Politics, and the Challenge to the U.S. (New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2007), 33.  In doing this, Chávez challenged the United States.
Following his domestic changes to the oil sector, Chávez set out to strengthen his position with the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) and called for greater unity among its members.  For Venezuela, pursuit of a strengthened rapport with OPEC members would not only reinforce ideological principles but would lead to a better standing within OPEC, itself, and afford Venezuela greater control over world oil prices.Sean Goforth,  Axis of Unity: Venezuela, Iran & the Threat to America  (Dulles: Potomac Books, 2012), 25.  The OPEC connection was a medium that led to the forging of new relationships with countries whose policies ran counter to those of many Western states, especially the United States.  By 2007, for example, Chávez and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had so solidified their association that the two declared an “Axis of Unity” to defeat the “imperialism of North America”.Goforth, Axis of Unity: Venezuela, Iran & the Threat to America, 31.  Tangibly, however, the bond manifested through growing trade that developed between Venezuela and Iran.  Bilateral commercial agreements rose from US$1 million in 2004 to more than $57 million by 2008.Ibid., 32.  Chávez was also an outspoken critic of the U.S. war in Iraq, much to the dissatisfaction of the Bush administration which went so far as to accuse him of  being complicit in supporting terrorist activities.
Partnership and collaboration ambitions on the part of the Chávez administration continued beyond the realm of the OPEC cartel.  Through Chávez, foreign policy hinged on using oil as a tool to support ideological allies and other Leftist governments within Latin America.  Relationships with Fidel Castro of Cuba and Evo Morales of Bolivia are but two examples of the alliances Chávez cultivated with Leftist governments.  By way of the National Economic and Development Plan of 2007, the Bolivarian socialist regime formally declared energy development as a cornerstone in designing a new geopolitical map.María Teresa Romero, "Imposing the International Bolivarian Project," in Venezuela's Petro-Diplomacy: Hugo Chávez's Foreign Policy, ed. Ralph S. Clem and Anthony P. Maingot, (Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2011), 68. In both South and Central America, Venezuelan oil wealth was helping to further the socialist cause through joint reciprocal trade agreements.  The Chávez regime made barter deals with the governments of Argentina and Uruguay such that oil would be supplied at subsidized rates in exchange for goods such as meat and milk, and industrial services for the Venezuelan state.Kozloff, Hugo Chávez: Oil, Politics, and the Challenge to the U.S., 117. Ties to Colombia’s guerilla groups including the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC) and the Ejército de Liberación Nacional (ELN) were supported by Venezuela’s oil revenues as well.  Aside from attempting to create a veritable South American oil block through refinery agreements with Brazil and Bolivia, Chávez also integrated Cuba into the hemispheric objectives of the Bolivarian Revolution.
Estimates suggest that in the ten year period between 1999 and 2009, Venezuelan regional and international cooperation commitments amounted to nearly US$40 billion - more than four times the total of U.S. foreign aid contributions.Golinger, Bush Versus Chávez: Washington's War on Venezuela, 153. Attempting to alleviate pressures put on Latin American countries through the Bretton Woods institutions of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank, for example, the socialist agenda went so far as to monetarily unburden its neighbors from the captivity of Washington Consensus-type conditions.  In doing this, the Chávez government and its Bolivarian movement put forth an alternative to the neoliberal design by undermining the status quo trade relationships that depended on free market principles.  Barter deals and seemingly unconventional exchanges of goods and services for oil circumvented currency and created new forms of bilateral relations in Latin America.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Riothero (talk • contribs) 21:12, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Internationalism 

message: ::: Talk:Bolivarian Revolution/sandbox1
I put the text above into a sandbox to begin cleaning up.  Does anyone have access to any of these sources?  There is a lot of uncited text, and I've removed some of the essay portions.  Much of what is expressed is author opinion, so whatever is kept must be attributed (as in, according to John Doe, writing in Book Title (2007), such and so text ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sandbox 

message: Well, I added information about the Bolivarian Revolution's decline. It may make a comeback, it may not, but for now we are seeing a decline. I just wanted to add a section here in case anyone wanted to discuss this edit.--ZiaLater (talk) 01:11, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Decline 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Please do not change the infobox back to the "civil conflict" box. The Bolivarian Revolution is more of an event/movement, not a conflict. The politics in Venezuela were fairly rough before the death of Chávez, though it was mainly political at that time. The conflict really began around 2012 when the Crisis in Bolivarian Venezuela began. That is when lines were drawn and separate governments were formed.----ZiaLater (talk) 10:25, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: This article is disgustingly biased, so much so that I'd expect most was written in the employ of the United States government. Where's the context? Where's the balance of opinions from around the world, when they're so overwhelmingly against Amerikkkan foreign policy? What a joke. 216.208.210.178 (talk) 14:27, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please be more specific? There cannot be improvements unless more details are discussed. --NoonIcarus (talk) 14:07, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have reworded the most notable POV violation and introduced some nuisance while leaving the rest of the criticism intact. --2800:E2:27F:F15B:351A:8088:DBE5:FB4F (talk) 19:47, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV