Talk:The Case for Peace

message: I went ahead and added some things that it looked like were missing for the page.. On 'noted': It would be better to replace this with something Dershowitz is objectively noted for. I'm sure it would be very easy to find something from his article. We can't just call him noted though. --75.46.88.60 20:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You say he is prominent in Harvard and has taken on some prominent cases. Wikipedia just needs examples, so an example of either of those would be great. Or say someone he is noted by. The problem is that he can't be noted for no reason. --75.46.88.60 21:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I grabbed 'Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law at Harvard Law School' from the Dershowitz article and am using that to describe him. It's slightly more descriptive and it is objective. --75.46.88.60 03:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 'noted' -> Felix Frankfurter

message: The information previously in the lead was not qualifying where the information was coming from, so I went ahead and added this. It seems pretty clear now that it should belong in the criticism section. If you want to mention it in the lead, it should be done in a quick sentence which identifies where the information is coming from. --YoYoDa1 17:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the future, it might be better to directly quote the people who are criticising the book. If you are looking to describe what the book says without all of these necessary qualifications, it might be better to find online excerpts of the book and quote directly. --YoYoDa1 17:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms

message: You (BlessSins) want to insert this quote:
because of this quote from the Montreal Mirror article: The problem is that you are trying to quote a second-hand source (an op-ed, no less) as a first hand source. If you're quoting a second hand source (especially one which doesn't claim to contain objective fact), it needs to be clear that you are giving someone's opinion, and we should also work to establish a background on the person. We should also try to quote the person more than paraphrase them so there is less of a chance that we mince their words. So, a better quote might look something like this: 
We also can't put every criticism of the book in the lead to the article (since it eliminates the point of a lead), so I thought it was logical to put this in a criticism section. 
If you are unhappy with placing something like the third quote in the criticism section, there are other options. It would be perfectly fine to summarize the Hays quote (or shorten what you use) and insert this (as an attributed criticism) in the lead. If you don't want to have to attribute your criticism, then it would be better to quote from the book itself. You could do this by either having the book or looking for excerpts online. Then you could write something like "On page so-and-so of Dershowitz's book, he writes..." and then the comment that you wish to mention. I hope this helps. --YoYoDa1 15:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also worth noting that it would be perfectly fine to add a sentence about the content of the book in the lead if you were quoting directly from the book and not from an op-ed. This article could also use some form of general section about the objective contents of the book. I've included links to help with this below. --YoYoDa1 15:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read the Montreal Mirror article twice now. It is hardly, if at all, a book review, and it does not take stance on the book. Matthew Hayes deals with Dershowitz, the reception of the book, some of its positions (which he does not endorse or criticize), and other controversies. --Shamir1 21:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hadn't read it before, I was just taking what people inserted in the article at face value. I've inserted the material as a quote because of the mixed nature of the piece and the varying interpretations of it. --YoYoDa1 01:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Montreal Mirror article

message: Search inside the book, from Amazon: 
--YoYoDa1 15:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first link is now on the main page. The second link seemed to not have anything more than the Amazon one, so I opted for Amazon instead. --YoYoDa1 02:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Useful Links

message: Here is the material:
University of Michigan student and managing editor of the The Michigan Israel Observer, Yevgeny Shrago, says the author "has devoted a great deal of time, thought and analysis to the situation. In these thirteen chapters he approaches the problem evenhandedly. Dershowitz censures Israel when he feels it is necessary and seeks solutions, regardless of who is to blame. Each chapter opens with a series of quotations from notable figures involved in the Middle East peace process, and Dershowitz presents hard data to support his conclusions. He does not, however, shy away from a criticism of the leadership."Dershowitz Strikes Back, Michigan Israel Observer However, Shrago later writes:  Shrago further comments "everything that he writes is important knowledge to have, but a book attempting to foster understanding is not the place to learn it."
I agree that the piece is mostly positive; the point is that Wikipedia can't classify a piece as praise or criticism when it contains both, especially when editors are arguing about where it goes. So let's come up with a solution here before we re-insert the material on the talk page. --YoYoDa1 03:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess you don't like the word "mixed" commentary. I can't think of any other good word to use and the only option I see would be to put it in both sections. However, I don't really see this as a good solution either. What can you suggest? --YoYoDa1 03:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shrago's statement does not have to be 100% good-only to be considered positive. I encourage you to check up on www.rottentomatoes.com for movie reviews. They provide a rating because a review which they label as "fresh" or "rotten". For many of the fresh ratings, the reviewer may say something (if you click the excerpt to see the full review) that the film may have been slow here or there, or that this scene was out place, etc., but still, the rating is considered fresh. It is not just mostly positive, it is overwhelmingly positive. He clearly states at the end that despite those "shortcomings" as you have mentioned above, it "can only be considered a success." Nothing less, and thus it can only be considered a positive review. --Shamir1 17:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then can you offer me an alternative and provide reasoning that supports it? He clearly acknowledges that there are shortcomings, but if he states that he has a positive review then it can go under the positive section. So place it under the positive section but expand the quote? (Along with his comment that 'despite these shortcomings') --YoYoDa1 16:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

text: On a completely different note: Do you find the opinion of University of Michigan student notable? I was just looking at this. --YoYoDa1 16:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did think about it, but what propmpted me to leave it is the fact that an editor (what appears purposefully) took statements out of his work and put it in the Criticisms section when it was clearly praise. So if he thinks it should be in, well, fine, but it should be in the right place. I already provided reasoning above and the statement does not need any expansion for such details. Those are minor and is not nearly as long as his 100% complimenting paragraphs. The fact that he says at the end (once again) that it "can only be considered a success" does not make that short part enough for us to note. Lasting note: it is undisputed that his review is outright very positive. --Shamir1 06:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's more or less what I had been doing with the sources, just trying to clean them up. I've counted the negative content and it is about 3-4 (out of 11) paragraphs (I can list the content I speak of on request). If Shrago classifies his review as positive, then I agree that it can and should be listed here as positive. However, I also think that his work should be cited represenatively. That would mean for every two sentences of praise there would be a sentence of "shortcoming". So it just needs a sentence or two describing the shortcomings he sees. And it would be perfectly fine to elaborate that despite the shortcomings he sees, he still feels that the book is a positive review along with any other qualifications that he makes. But the article isn't 100% complimentary paragraphs (and if it is, then why does it matter which quote we use?) --YoYoDa1 15:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a clip of the review. If one wants to read the whole review they can. Every detail is not needed. --Shamir1 23:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, it should be represenative of the document itself. --YoYoDa1 19:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shrago material 

message: Can we make a new category called "Books about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict"?  There are a number of books that are specifically about this long running (and over-analyzed) conflict and such a category would lead to a better organization of articles.  --70.48.240.104 06:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, can we mention the year the book was published (as books in this topic area can get dated if they are about recommendations on the future) although this book is still quite recent.  Additionally, it may be useful to split off the overview of the content of the book into its own section (the first section following the lead) and simply the lead to be more summary style.  --70.48.240.104 06:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  new cat?