Talk:Alexander Suvorov

message: Hello, Paranoid. =)  ""Do you, by any chance, have a source that would indicate which meaning of "kosa" is the correct one for Suvorov's quote?  The reason I'm asking is that I'm Russian, I've encountered that quote before and, though I've seen no hard evidence either way, "scythe" seemed to be the accepted meaning.
: The current translation is correct. Kosa in this phrase refers to the braid in a wig. The word braid fits perfectly with pudra (facial and wig powder) and bukli (pl. from buklia or puklia, curl in a wig), while scythe does not fit at all. 
: You can sign and timestamp your posts by typing four tildas: ~~~~
: --Gene s 07:47, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kosa 

message: The name should be properly transliterated as Alexander, as per Transliteration of Russian into English. To avoid confusion, Aleksandr and Aleksander should also be mentioned in the article as possible variants.
*Support -  Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles): In general, use the most commonly recognized English-language form of the name. Create redirections or disambiguations for other plausible links. violet/riga (t) 23:06, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to Alexander Suvorov 

message: The Massacre of Praga is a well-documented historical fact and calling it "alleged" is simply a factual error. The sentence "the alleged massacre of many civillians broke the spirits of the defenders" makes no sense anyway - if it never happened, how could it have broken their spirits? I'm removing the word.
The Massacre of Praga is one of many Polish nationalist myths. In any case virtually nothing about this conflict is "well documented", murders of civilians obviosly did happened, but they weren't on an exeptional scale according to 18th century European standarts. Famous Polish painting does not qualify as a "factual document"...(Fisenko 05:58, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is just an accident, that I am involved into this debate because the article title Massacre of Praga seemed odd to me. I quickly checked and I found no references to the Battle of Warsaw called this way in entire E.L. internet as well as in any E.L. encyclopedias. I have too little knowledge on the topic to argue whether the massacre did in fact happened and I do believe that in Poland it is considered to be beyond debate. However, since "Massacre of Praga" is not an accepted term in English L. literature for these events, we should not use it simply to refer to somethinng as if it is a common name. Therefore, I just moved the Massacre of Praga to the Battle of Praga. Similar solution should be used here. We of course should mention the mass murder of civilians, since it is widely considered to be factual. --Irpen 05:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing "alleged" massacre 

message: The article states that the massacre of civilians in Warsaw is alledged.However historians and history doesn't dispute the fact of the massacre.
--Molobo 10:28, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Polish historians, you forget to say. Bug off, troll. --Ghirla | talk 10:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't feed trolls. Go away. --Ghirla | talk 10:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ghirla, please behave. Molobo has a perfectly good point here. Google Books search for "1794+Praga+massacre" reveals 18 books, most of then not written by people with Polish sounding surname, with phrases like: "[Suvorov's] assault resulted in the infamous “massacre of Praga” on 24 October/ 4 November" (John T. Alexander), "...would massacre zo,ooo Pales in the storming of Praga in 1794..." (John. P Ledonne), "...army stormed Praga on November 4, 1794, a success which was followed by an appalling massacre of its inhabitants" (Charles Raymond Beazley), ..."Eighteen thousand human carcasses were carried away after the massacre..." (James Mackintosh). Now could you provide any sources, preferably not-Russian and in English (since you discard Polish ones and by Polish sounding authors) that argue the massacre is alleged?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My search discovered 254 entries for "praga+battle" as opposed to 85 entries for "praga+massacre", the large portion of the "massacre" citations belonging to the Poles - Andrzej Szczypiorski, Czeslaw Milosz, etc. Others were obviously influenced by their unsubstantiated claims. I'll let the matter pass however, until I have more time to ascertain the truth. --Ghirla | talk 15:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that some of those 257 battle references are about the 1944 Warsaw Uprising.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

text: For all your lack of national bias, you make up for it with ignorance, Praga is nowhere near Prague. Well aware this is 5 years old now, but just had to give my two cents. Also, I would like to point out in defence of the phrase "alleged massacre" (and for my national bias, I'm Scot-French-Canadian), alleged does not suggest that it did not happen, simply that proof is inconclusive, similar to alleged massive army of Grand Duke Jogaila at Grunwald/Tannenburg, which was quoted by the Germans as being "so large there is no number in human language to count them". Some people even think the Templars outnumbered the Poles/Lithuanians there. In defense of a massacre, 20000 is quite alot of civilians to die before bombs had more range than your throw. The bombing of Dresden (major German city) in 45 only average out at 30000, when it had over 1 million people in it. Warsaw on the other hand had a population of 120000 in 1792, 20000 being 1/6th, thats alot for a mere suburb. Durak. 174.112.18.193 (talk) 09:01, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The article and neutrality

message: Image of a statue considered not notable by both romanians and russians. Moved from the original site of the battle of the Rimna river, on a hill, from political reasons and in order to be visited easily by russians tourists during communist era. It very courious that this ugly monument,a not notable monument (as an author of the article mentioned) situated in Romania has only a inscription in russian, and has escaped the any demolish or hidding (it was previosly situated out of sight near the river)attempt.
It is very possible that some russians officials consider this monument a notable monument, but probable this is only a temporary situation.:-)CristianChirita
Image:Suvorov guarding the ramna river 1.jpg|Suvorov monument near Focsani
Image:Suvorov guarding the ramna river 4.jpg
Image:Suvorov guarding the ramna river 2.jpg
Indeed a relatively ugly statue. I think a free-use photo of the Suvorov statue in Izmail might be useful, though, if anyone has one. Jbhood 15:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: non-notable statue

message: Reading the recent Irpen's addition about him ordering the destruction of the bridge, I am reminded about something I read some time ago: that he didn't order the massacre and actually issued orders to prevent it, but the troops were out of control (looting and pillaging was common in such conflicts). It is possible I am confusing him and this massacre with some other, though - but if sb can find references to his activities and orders during the siege of Warsaw, it might be a useful addition.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I read a source once which claimed he took part in the massacre and grabbed two chickens while laughing to Russian soldiers "let only those have their heads left to their bodies". I will search for this source.  	 
- 	--Molobo 07:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suvorov orders during the Praga massacre

message: I would like your explanation on deletion of referenced source in Alexander Suvorov article.
You made no comment why it was deleted.
--Molobo 08:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I have reverted the following edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alexander_Suvorov&diff=47220556&oldid=46029580 . I actually thought that presenting information of an unattributed and unpublished Word file http://www.iskry.com.pl/fragmenty/polacy-kreml.rtf as an academic source proving something to be a fact and a book of 1884 as an example of works the intentions of Modern Russian historians to be a kind of joke. If I am mistaken and it was serious, please explain it on talk abakharev 02:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: pl:Iskry is a major Polish publishing house, and I would not call their publications a joke. On the other hand it would be much better if Molobo could give us information on which book this fragment is a part of, who is the author, perhaps some reviews and such.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Per this: Plese find objective resources, the book you quote can't be seen as objective as it represents Polish POV, and we need to cross examine its claims, as it is known Polish historians are quite paranoid towards Imperial Russia and their statements could be biased. Can you find an non-Polish source claiming the same fact ? --Ghirla -трёп- 09:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any basis for questioning Janusz Tazbir other than his nationality? Tazbir is one of the most respected modern Polish historians, quoted in 151 books in Google Print.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: From my talk page

message: This is very unreliable, Czartoryski was a foreign minister of Russia who tried to become ruler of Poland by being a servant of tsar. Please use reliable sources. Btw why are Pushking quotes delete d and information about Russian attempts to justify or cover up the mass murder ?
--Molobo 12:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Czartoryski might have his own POV - who doesn't - but his memoires, as many others, are a primary source. In the end all modern books have to be based on the older, usually much more POVed sources - otherwise we are dealing with fiction. The trick is, when using old sources, to be able to NPOV them.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Memoirs of Czartoryski ?

message: I went over 10 English book that mention the battle of Praga (and please note that most of them do indeed use the term massacre). Not a single one of them contain clear reference that Suvorov either encouraged or tried to prevent massacre. They often use the geround construction 'Suvorov massacred...' but I think it is fairly obvious that they mean 'Suvorov forces massacred...' and not that Suvorov himself was anywhere near the frontlines slaying Poles. Considering that we currently have no references for the claim that Suvorov instigated the massacre, and the counterclaims are supported by the 19th century Russian source and some webpage, I'd suggest that both claims are moved to talk until we can find any proper, academic and preferably English citations for Suvorov's role in the massacre.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Storm in a teacup

message: I have became a connection link between two parties User:Eupator and User:Eliweinerman. Eli insists that the Armenian ancestory of Suvorov is an Urbam legend. On the other hand Eupator isnsists that Suvorov is clearly half-Armenian.
From my talk page:
Hello Alex, I still think the wording is unencyclopedic and it's better not to mention it at all if it is unsourced. Basically if it isn't verified 100% percent leave it out. Yeah Manuk is an Armenian name but that doesn't mean anyone with the name is Armenian? 
Мать Суворова — Авдотья (Евдокия) Федосеевна Суворова, в девичестве Манукова, происходила из обрусевшего армянского рода.
Sources:
, , --Eupator 15:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No argument regarding Mikhail Lazarev. He is indeed not related to Armenian Lazarevs. Point about Suvorov still remains and there are sufficient sources for that.--Eupator 13:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No offense, but it sounds like nationalist nonsense, not anti-Armenian propaganda. Your final points are even flawed, is Robert E. Lee therefore Chinese? Am I a liar because one of my middle names is Logan (a older russian word for liar is lgun). There are such things in this world as coincidence, and given that, you cannot state a definitive without definitive proof. Suvorov may have been Armenian, but theres no proof or sources, (and a suspect that even when those links worked they were unreliable sources, talking about the name and not about Suvorov at all). Lastly, Ackerman isn't even Jewish, its Saxon. Many duraks on this page. 174.112.18.193 (talk) 09:09, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Russian version of Suvorov clearly states that the Armenian heritage is an urban myth and comes from misunderstanding that his mother was Armenian yet i was surprised to see that Armenian heritage to be mentioned here where in Russian its clearly not mentioned or even given much importance.I don't understand why Armenians have this fetish to Armenize everyone.  37.210.148.10 (talk) 12:36, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Suvorov's Armenian ancestory

message: Assigned importance=high (same rating as the Elder Moltke, I would say) Jbhood 18:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance rating

message: Any source for the translation: "A bullet will fool it, a bayonet won't say 'nyet'?" A clumsy translation at best, in my opinion. I'll revert it in a couple of days if no-one gives a reason not to. Jbhood 13:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. He actually said diffferent.--Nixer 18:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bayonet quote 

message: So, no one here has read Duffy's book about Suvorov and his Italian campaign (Eagles Over the Alps)?  It seems to be pretty well done, and he also briefly addresses Praga.  Seems like a glaring ommission among the "further reading" section at least.   Once I finish the work, I may add some detail to the Italian campaign section. (salamander, don't feel like signing on right now) --171.161.160.10 13:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duffy

message: i cant beleive there is no mention of the atoll in the cook islands named after this man. can someone amend this wiki?> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.181.198.164 (talk) 05:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  suvorov 

message: too much attention to 'massacre'. Beter hold it in Battle of Praga articles. During wars of Suvorov, too many people died, and those few thousands of poles are not significant.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.69.240.51 (talk) 00:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  the Praga 'massacre' - who cares? 

message: Copied from Template talk:Infobox military person
Hello everyone, 
On the Suvorov talk page there's been a message under the Wikiproject Biography template stating that "an appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article." This message has been there since at least September 2006 and since then apperantly no one has bothered to add an infobox to the article or remove the message. I decided to add one with this edit. I'm not sure whether I overdid it with information or what, but the infobox was removed a few days later by .
Now, mind you, I really hate to see the work thrown in the trash without any apperant reason stated in the edit summary. However, as the aforementioned gentleman appears to be an admin, my only conclusion is that he knows what he's doing and an infobox does not belong in that article...for whatever reason that is. If that is the case, the message asking for one needs to be removed from the talk page so that others won't make the same mistake. My other conclusion is that the users who dominate that article just don't like infoboxes. In any case, I haven't reverted the edits but instead have come here wondering what you all think on the matter. 
Regards, 71.112.145.211 (talk) 09:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: How did Russian nobility gain Imperial German titles? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Theres a few Brits and Frenchmen too with such a privilege as I recall. The Shirleys as I recall, and the Thompson could (the first American counts). Can't remember but I'm sure theres a Scot too. Gave those things away like candy. Reminds me of handing out stock in a bankrupt company, za derzhavoo obidno. 174.112.18.193 (talk) 09:20, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Count of Holy Roman Empire? 

message: Anyone with good historical knowledge will se that Suvorovs tactics was how the Swedes reasoned. Concerning his Ethnicity, i dont know who he was for certain, but his whole battletactics-style is swedish, to the one who know about those things there is an abundance of material to prove that rather the Swedes where the first to specialize on bayonet-attacks etc. And also if you look at pictures of him there is always something suggesting that he had a Swedish connection, his weaponshield for example, and also the colours he is surrounded by many times. As i said, the ethnicity i dont know about, but the whole approach is something that is obvious to someone with good knowledge. And in his day Finland was still a part of Sweden so it could be the same connection, in a way. It seems to be a fact that his forefathers came from Sweden but i still maintain that his whole legacy is supposed to be built on that fact. I hope i have brought something to this ethnicity and tactics debate. But to be really honest i almost think that much about him is completely made up, or at least exaggerated. First of all: There is almost nothing he seem to have written himself that would give a good picture about him, mostly what others have written about him. What i would want is a thorough investigation and discussion involving completely objective scholars, then this could probably be sorted out.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.89.80.62 (talk) 17:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suvorov was probably Swedish (in the style) 

message: Is that entire paragraph, including "six-times" wounded, part of his actual Russian name and title?  Or does it end with the various ranks and degrees of nobility, with the rest of the paragraph being broken out as a separate sentence giving the very brief overview of his career? 75.252.62.69 (talk) 16:28, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name and title 

message: Suvorov was Russian, it's sure. But how his ancestors, this link in Finnish:
http://www3.lappeenranta.fi/museot/verkkonayttelyt/Suvorov/pages/Suvorovin_arvoituksellinen_identiteetti.html
says that Suvorov wrote in 1791 to Jennings that his lastname Suvorov comes from old Finnish words "Sywe" (Deep) and "wara" (hill). So it was believed to be  first Syvävaara, then later Sywewara, later Suwara and finally Suvor(ov). Who knows? But this same source says second possibility, Suvorov might be mentioned in Бархатная книга..!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.148.2 (talk) 19:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: His maternal family has an Armenian name, he founded an Armenian town, his mother was buried in an Armenian graveyard, an Armenian military school is named after him, etc.. these are backed up by sources, unlike your edits. Stop vandalizing. --Steverci (talk) 15:43, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

text: That's what I am begging for: reliable sources. Not speculations. Andrei Platonov was buried at the same cemetery and this does not make him Armenian. Masusimaru (talk) 11:36, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking quickly at the sources removed here.  Is ref name=Авдотья really a reliable source?  This daily informative magazine "ShkolaZhizni.ru" to quote Google Translate's rendition of the bottom of the page looks like a Readers' Digest type of magazine: nice for reading, but not a scholarly reliable source for a historical article.  It definitely looks like the Armenian Weekly is a reliable source, but ref name=Remembering is not: it's an opinion page, an editorial, and editorials are only reliable for "the editor thinks X".  And the one removed here — the Foreign Languages Publishing House was the USSR's state publishing house for non-Russian materials, and we generally trust government publications.  I see no reason to doubt it.  Nyttend (talk) 12:36, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Nyttend Also note the military school named after Alexander Suvorov and Valerian Madatov sourced in the Legacy section. This confirms that the Armenian government recognizes Suvorov's Artsakh Armenian princely ancestry to be true. --Steverci (talk) 20:54, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Steverci Nyttend is right, your sources are not acceptable for a serious project like Wikipedia. Military schools all over the world are named after Suvorov, there's one in Minsk, Belarus. Does it make Suvorov Belarusian? No. You keep restoring your speculations on the Armenian word 'Manuk'. This is clearly an inline original research. Please remove it. You keep insisting that Suvorov's mother is buried in Moscow in the Armenian Vagankovo Cemetery - where's the proof? Where's the grave photo? Anything? And even if it is true (which is apparently not), russian writer Andrei Platonov is burried in the same place - you want to make him Armenian too? Your repeated references of "ShkolaZhizni.ru" are irrelevant, as well as of a book 'Prominent Armenians' which has no ISBN and is not accessible in libraries (I've checked). Do you have one? Apparently no, nobody does. This book does not exist. As for this source - can you explain, what is it? Why did you choose this fiction-oriented magazine of Soviet Union of Writers, which does not cite its historical sources, as academical proof of your point? Google led you there? That's totally unacceptable. In addition you are now trying to ban me from editing this page via Administrators lever of influence. I ask you to please revert ALL your biased statements and fakery links and stop restoring them.Masusimaru (talk) 15:08, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Nyttend is agreeing with me.. The Suvorov Military College is a chain created in Russia. Also see Pan-Slavism; Belarus is the most pro-Russia country in the world and the last bastion of Stalinism. It's not out of place to see a legendary Russian figure among Eastern Slavs. Armenians have no Slavic nationality and have removed any tribute to the likes of Catherine the Great or Lenin or other famous Russians after becoming independent. The fact Suvorov shares the school name with an Artsakhi prince just makes it too obvious. I'll admit when I first listed Suvorov's Armenian ancestry I lacked an undisputable source, but I have since found that in the Soviet Encyclopedia and Grigory Potemkin's own words, so you might as well give up already. I am not claiming that everyone buried there is an Armenian, just that it's an Armenian cemetary, which it is. And you should speak for yourself, not of your sources have ISBN, nor do many others. Infact, google translate is not a source for anything. It's also interesting you use a Belarus website as source, yet call my sources unacceptable when I cited the Nakhichevan-on-Don website, which is an Armenian city founded by Suvorov himself. --Steverci (talk) 02:48, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins and ethnicity 

message: >> Suvorov was married to Varvara Ivanovna Prozorovskaya of the Golitsyn family
Prozorovskys are Rurikids. Golitsyns are Gediminids. These are two different families not the branch one of another.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.87.149.214 (talk) 23:29, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wife 

message: One section on the Russian retreat through the alps reads:
"When Suvorov battled his way through the snow-capped Alps his army was checked but never defeated."
What does this mean exactly?  It sounds a lot more like propaganda than a clear explanation of events.  By checked was he forced to retreat in another direction due to military action--is that a defeat?  Or was it due to weather, and therefore not a defeat?  I just think this line could be improved. 216.81.94.73 (talk) 23:16, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't find any "propaganda" here whatsoever. He skillfully avoided being surrounded and defeated by a numerically superior force and successfully retreated through the Alps, fighting off the French and saving his army. And that's exactly what the passage says. 46.31.31.123 (talk) 10:15, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Checking to me, implies that an attempt was made to go forward, which was unsuccessful, and thus required an attempt in another direction.  Being checked means your attempt to maneuver was defeated. Sounds a lot like propaganda to me.216.81.94.69 (talk) 03:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Checked but never defeated 

message: The very beginning of this article states Suvorov "never lost a single battle he had commanded." Unfortunately, I recently stumbled upon this article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lanckorona) which reveals the Poles won a surprising victory against numerically superior Russian forces in 1771, led by none other than Alexander Suvorov. Which article is right, and which one is wrong?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by RedStorm1368 (talk • contribs) 02:19, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact-checking his undefeated record 

message: Л. С. Komarova in the book "Suvorov's Light on Earth", the electronic version of which is published on the website of the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation, notes that Avdotya Manukova is Armenian by nationality, of Orthodox Christianity 
https://web.archive.org/web/20220408182739/https://encyclopedia.mil.ru/encyclopedia/books/svet_suvorova.htm
https://cdra.ru/images/struktura/voenno-hudojesvennaya_studia_pisateley/recenzii/recenziya_mihail-silkin_kniga-komarovoy_svet-suvorova-na-zemle.docx
There have been speculations about the Armenian origin of Suvorov's mother's surname (from the Armenian word Մանուկ - "manuk" - infant, child)
Zolyan T. S. New materials to the biography of A. V. Suvorov. V. Suvorov Bulletin of Archives of Armenia, 1969, N 3.
Lopatin V. S. in his book "Suvorov" writes that Avdotya Manukova belonged to a collapsed Armenian family
https://lampada-press.ru/assets/files/lampada/lampada_92_5_2013.pdf
https://archive.org/details/avidreaders.ru__suvorov
https://ria.ru/20091124/195108294.html
Even the Russian Wikipedia says
Galstyan Karen Artyushovich (talk) 08:41, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian 

message: Most of the article is cited to sources that are over a century old; one is over two centuries old. Most of these sources seem to be highly hagiographical. It is thus doubtful whether the sources satisfies WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:RSAGE, and it is likely that the article is not neutral and is not encyclopaedic. I have tagged it appropriately. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @AirshipJungleman29 I notice that a lot of information is based off of those old sources, however I've added quite a number of 21st century sources that can be used. Reaper1945 (talk) 19:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable sourcing and unencyclopedic tone