Talk:Arthur Percival

message: Consider this statement in the article on Ernest Percival: "Following the murder of a Royal Irish Constabulary sergeant in church in July 1920, he captured Tom Hales, commander of the IRA's West Cork Brigade, and Patrick Harte, ..."
I am inquiring about the first part, "Following the murder of a Royal Irish Constabulary sergeant in church in July 1920"  I have a couple questions: (1) "murder" is a strong word. Was Percival actually charged and convicted of murdering this individual? (2) What relevance does it have to the remainder of the sentence?
Next, consider this statement (in the same paragraph): "Percival was a successful counter-guerrilla".  In earlier versions of this article it was asserted that Percival was *not* succcessful against the IRA.  Whether he was, or was not successful seems debatable.  Perhaps this statement should be deleted, and just state facts? Roger costello 15:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're mis-reading the first one, I imagine that the policeman was muredered by the IRA, rather than by Percival... On the second, without access to the sources quoted in that para it's hard to tell whether it's jsutified or not - if you doubt the statement, tag it with , and elave it for a while to see if anyone can come up with a source.  David Underdown 15:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Facts? Evidence? 

message: Regarding Percival's comment that "Defences are bad for morale - for both troops and civilians". Was he refering to the "construction of the defences", with all the digging and the menial work, etc.? Any insight on why he thought this would be bad for morale? Thanks in advance. --Vsion (talk) 08:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defences  

message: The photo is not of the West Cork Flying Column but of Seán Hogan's Flying column operating on the Kilkenny/Tipperary border. The photo is from a book The Flying Column - West Kilkenny 1916-1921. The book contains the names of the members of the Flying Column. The unit was disbanded at the end of the War of Independence and had nothing to do with the Civil War.
As being an Anti-Treaty and a Pro-Treaty IRA man still creates rancour in Ireland it would be best to remove this photo.
Jm butler 08:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  West Cork Flying Column Photograph 

message: When did Pat Harte die in the hospital ? Was it just after the torture session or was it later ? I could not find the info on the web. Thanks, 62.203.225.47 21:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not add the citation then? Leithp 17:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He could, but I doubt it exists.  Last I read Patrick Harte was executed by the Irish Republic in 1940 - see Ulick O'Connor's biography of Brendan Behan entitled "Brendan", p.61 for one citation of it.  If there was more than one active diehard Patrick Harte in the IRA I apologise, but I find it rather unlikely.  Regards,  Harlsbottom (talk) 18:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

text:  Harte is not an unusual name in Ireland. And clearly many (and not just Catholic ones) will have been christened Patrick and referred to (confusingly for us) variously as Patrick, Pat, Patsy, Paddy etc  There may well have been several of them active in the republican movement. There is a report here of a Patrick Harte (of Clonakilty indeed) having died in circa early 2003. Whether it is of the same one needs investigation. "Our" Harte clearly was committed to an asylum at some point - this is alluded frequently on the web in various places (in book reviews etc. not just IRA history sites). I can't find any trace (yet) of a Harte having been executed by the Free State in 1940. Albatross2147 (talk) 01:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Book reviews are all very well, however, what is needed is a published source stating that Harte was committed.  However, from the source I mentioned above, and from O'Halpin's "Defending Ireland: The Irish State and it's Enemies Since 1922" one can conclude quite easily from them that a Patrick Harte, veteran of the Irish Republican Army assisted another veteran, Patrick McGrath in murdering two detectives in August, 1940 and the pair were consequently tried and executed.  I can believe that he was committed, however it also looks like he swung in 1940 as well.  As I'm sure anyone else will tell you, by all means add the piece on him going into hospital, as long as it's verifiable in print.  It's not being "Anglophile" as someone charmingly wrote above, it's just being right.  Harlsbottom (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: EDIT: After some more digging, I withdraw my assertion that Harte was executed in 1940.  While O'Connor says it was Patrick Harte who was shot by firing squad, one source says it was a "T. Harte" who was arrested on 16 August, and another suggests (it was written 80 years later) that it was a "Tommy Harte".  Bit too dodgy that one.  However, the pair who were executed in 1940 were definitely the first IRA Men to be executed by Military Tribunal, so it shouldn't be too difficult to see who the Harte actually was.  Harlsbottom (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Bowyer Bell in the The Secret Army at P 187 says it was a Tom Harte who was executed in 1940 for the shoot out. This it appears is a comprehensive list of executed volunteers (also [http://www.geocities.com/richard.clark32@btinternet.com/ireland.html here} which gives the method as firing squad. Another blog refers to Harte's remains being released from  Mountjoy in 2003 and taken to his home town in Armagh for interment Albatross2147 (talk) 03:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

text:  I can't see why you can't include Ryan's assertions properly referenced. Albatross2147 (talk) 03:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death of Pat Harte 

message: I'm surprised this made it to be a featured article, it's not a biography of Percival but an apologetic history of the Malay campaign. Brettr 10:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How exactly? Your unawareness of the distinction between Malay, Malayan, and Straits Settlements seems to give away your lack of expertise. John Riemann Soong 16:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice try Soong but you didn't address my point. This is a biography of a man but a history of a campaign. Brettr 07:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  They are interlinked what. How is it apologetic, exactly? John Riemann Soong 04:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It is clearly a biography. Point out which parts suggest it's an article about a campaign and not about Percival? I've read every section of this article and it's all about him. Chensiyuan 02:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  featured article 

message: There seems to be a discrepancy in these first two sections.  At the end of Early Childhood it states that Percival was to remain a civilian.  Yet in the WWI section it clearly states that he served abroad during this time.  Why the disconnect.  Am I reading this incorrectly?  19:20, 2 January 2007 Emeril 19:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Childhood / WWI 

message: General Percival is listed as a Nazi in the introductory paragraph, but no mention of his joining the Nazi party and being an Allied General during WWII is mentioned in his biography.Eddie28 19:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazi? 

message: The quote "This was in spite of instructions from Prime Minister Winston Churchill for prolonged resistance.[2]" is misleading in its placement. While Churchill demanded prolonged resistance nearly until the end of the campaign, by the time of the surrender negotiations with Yamashita (which this quote refers to) Churchill had accepted the realities of the situation and given Wavell discretion to end hostilities in a telegram received by Wavell the morning of the surrender (see, for example, Thompson p484). I propose to change this to correct the misleading impression that Wavell and Percival surrended without Churchill's agreement. Thoughts? Simon9 11:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Churchill and the surrender

message: I'm having trouble with this sentence in the intro:
"However, current knowledge about the years of under-funding of Malaya's defences and the inexperienced, under-equipped nature of the Commonwealth army has enabled certain commentators to hold a more sympathetic view of his command."
While I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the challenges Percival faced in his command of Malaya, this is a rather sweeping statement to make on the basis of a single citation to a book written by a colleague, Smyth, who was sacked for his own failure to hold East Burma and who wrote his book forty years ago. That's a single commentator, not commentators; a commentator who is hardly disinterested; and a commentator whose views hardly reflect current knowledge. 
It's possible Wilmott says something similar, with better knowledge and less appearance of bias. But I doubt it: Wilmott generally takes the view that the British in the Far East had a tough challenge but did far worse even than they had to. --Yaush (talk) 14:15, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubiuos assertion in intro 

message: This section has been changed substantially in recent years. 
So much of the section relies heavily on one or two sources: a sole newspaper article published in 1998 and a book on General Montgomery.   There are literally dozens of book on the conflict in Cork from 1919-21 that provide information about the Essex Regiment and its adversaries.  Why were they all taken out?   Why would a book about someone else who mentions Percival in passing be used to provide info and details of Percival's time in Ireland instead of books by historians who have studied the period and conflict their whole lives? 
The torture the Essex Regiment used on Tom Hales and Pat Harte was severe beatings, dragging them behind lorries, and using pincers to pluck out their fingernails and in Hales case his teeth.  This is all documented by multiple historians, from one spectrum (Meda Ryan, local historian generally pro IRA)to the other (Peter Hart, very critical of Tom Barry).  I'm not sure how much more substantiated it could get.  Hales spent the rest of the War in prison and had only stubs for teeth, which is documented in multiple places. 
This whole section seems to have been written to put Percival in the best light and falls short of the quality and accuracy this article used to have.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.130.226.76 (talk) 20:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  his time in Ireland 

message: This article is one of the oldest FA promotions yet to have a featured article review. Several paragraphs and sentences are unattributed [I've marked two but there are others], some of which contain potentially controversial statements, including "difficulties with his subordinates", "Bennett was full of confidence, but faced a mixed reaction", "Percival threw away potential advantages", "restrained rather than self-serving", and "Unusual for a British lieutenant-general". DrKay (talk) 12:42, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured article review 

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