Talk:Henri de Saint-Simon

message: *This is flatly wrong. Marxists don't think the working class is constituted only by manual laborers.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.28.189 (talk) 05:31, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, there's a quote from Marx in the first volume of Capital: "Capitalist production is not merely the production of commodities, it is essentially the production of surplus-value. . . a schoolmaster is a productive labourer when, in addition to belabouring the heads of his scholars, he works like a horse to enrich the school proprietor. That the latter has laid out his capital in a teaching factory, instead of in a sausage factory, does not alter the relation." Even snubbing Marx's definition as "narrower" (as the text seemed to be doing) is rather silly given how very broad Saint-Simon's definition of industriels was, and given that few, if any historians, economists, etc. seem to adhere to (or be remotely influenced) by Saint-Simon's conception as compared to Marx's vastly more influential analysis. --Ismail (talk) 06:31, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: nor did he adhere to the narrower definition of the working class as manual labourers as defined by Marxists

message: *I am suggesting moving this page (back) to Claude Henri de Rouvroy because Wikipedia:Naming conventions instructs that the simpler, moe common form of names is preferred unless disambiguation is required. Feel free to comment below. -- Dystopos 21:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: I think Saint Simonism clearly deserves its own article separate from this one; it was a movement much broader than Claude Henri de R. himself through much of the 19th century. Saint Simonism was very influential in the military academies for example. I'm willing to write the article myself (since I am doing a bit of research on the topic).jackbrown 22:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote: getting rid of the redirect for Saint Simonism 

message: I copied and pasted various sections in the article up into the lead and then ruthlessly cut them down. Hopefully it's a better lead than it started out as. Bettymnz4 (talk) 01:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  In addition to proofing, I expanded the lead. 

message: I accuse the article of lacking neutrality.
I claim he wasnt influenced by Marxism.
The claim that early socialists where "created by-" or "influenced by marxism" is solely based
on the idea that Karl Marx predate socialism
but socialism predate Marx.
The books the early socialist are know to have read should be listed
by name and author, not refered by ideology,
By klas Wullt.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.210.245.217 (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone claiming that Saint-Simon was "influenced by Marxism" is... factually wrong. No author, whether Marxist or not, claims that. So I wouldn't consider that a case of the article "lacking neutrality," I'd consider it more "whoever wrote this knows nothing of Saint-Simon or Marx." --Ismail (talk) 06:31, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Lacking neutrality 

message: The following seems to be extremely moralizing: "Bazard, a man of stolid temperament, could no longer work in harmony with Enfantin, who desired to establish an arrogant and fantastic sacerdotalism with lax notions as to marriage and the relations between the sexes. In the name of progress, Enfantin announced that the gulf between the sexes was too wide and this social inequality would impede rapid growth of society." It sounds like we're quoting this from somewhere, but in any event, we don't do this sort of thing. It's not up to us to try to judge whether Enfantin's ideas were or were not "arrogant" and "fantastic" or had "lax" notions. Metamagician3000 (talk) 09:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: From a search on Google Books, that sentence was taken almost verbatim from The New Encyclopedia Britannica copyrighted in 1974. So yes, besides violating Wikipedia's NPOV policy, it's also plagiarized. --Ismail (talk) 10:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality and Enfantin

message: Much of this article, in particular the Theory section reads like a 19th century philosophy textbook. I can't track a source down--so I can't be sure. This section seems to have stood in various forms since 2007. It's been extensively copied around the web, making it tricky to pinpoint an original source online. Someone with better search skills than me might give it a crack... 
If it's not a copy-paste then it sure looks like OR.
--Whoosit (stalk) 15:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a copyright violation as the text is out of copyright. It is copied from EB1911 see here. I have now included the  template in place of  which includes the correct attribution.  I have also moved the template up into a References section so that the attribution partially meets the requirements of the plagiarism guideline. It meet the guideline fully inline citations to the EB1911 article are required. -- PBS (talk) 18:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Copy-paste? 

message: POV, rewrite, etc. Really bad anti-socialist POV pushing is quite evident/blantant. 76.180.168.166 (talk) 16:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maybe needs some more tags 

message: The editor noted above just made a series of extensive edits to this article, but included no references to support those changes. I reverted those changes, and left a note on the editor's 70.53.113.91|talk page JoeSperrazza (talk) 16:41, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes by [[User talk:70.53.113.91|70.53.113.91]] 

message: The first sentence in this article says that he was commonly referred to as Henri de Saint-Simon, and as far as I am aware there is no other major historical figure by that name, so by WP:COMMON NAME the article should be named "Henri de Saint-Simon".--70.55.10.162 (talk) 17:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article title should be "Henri de Saint-Simon" per WP:COMMON NAME 

message: The whole article seems to focus on how he wasn't anything like Marx, and in the end it remains unclear in what way his ideas were different from actually existing American capitalism.--79.100.149.219 (talk) 06:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: He did envision a market economy, but he thought the market could be made "rational" through intervention by a state comprised of capitalists, scientists, engineers and the like. He believed such a society could have full employment, no "idle" classes (e.g. landowners would be required to use their land "productively"), a degree of upward mobility unknown to any actual market economy, and so on. His influence on socialist thought isn't so much due to his aforementioned system (though it contained "socialistic" elements including a degree of planning), but his conception of historical progress and the arguments he used to justify political and economic changes (e.g. he argued the main goal ought to be to "ameliorate promptly the moral and physical condition of the most numerous class" and that his system aligned with society's present requirements and was therefore "the only one that would contribute directly and efficiently" to this process), which could easily lead to socialist conclusions in the hands of others. --Ismail (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did he envisage a market economy or not? 

message: Saint Simon's conceptual recognition of broad socio-economic contribution, and his Enlightenment valorization of scientific knowledge, soon inspired and influenced utopian socialism, liberal political theorist John Stuart Mill, anarchism through its founder Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who was inspired by Saint-Simon's thought and Marxism with Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels identifying Saint-Simon as an inspiration to their ideas and classifying him among the utopian socialists.
Garden path: 
... Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who was inspired by Saint-Simon's thought and Marxism ...
In grad school you get to untangle this mess, because the professor who wrote the crappy manuscript is too busy for words. 
Here, we can do better. — MaxEnt 02:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grad school diction