Talk:The Emancipation of Mimi

message: We read:
:This is a week-by-week breakdown of sales of The Emancipation of Mimi. To date, the album has sold 3,270,864 copies 
I edited that to "has sold over 3.2 million copies", or similar, adding the SGML comment:
:Previously "3,270,864 copies": this degree of precision is obviously ridiculous.
The edit was reverted, and the following comment added:
:Hoary, we get our information when soundscan which is very exact and accurate. These numbers are real. Everytime you buy an album at any store, its eletronically recorded, adding to Soundscan's total
The last time I bought an album at any store was about four days ago in Thelonious, a (very literally) underground store in Vilnius. There was no electronic recording: the proprietor excused the delay while he jotted down the record numbers in a notebook. Such a procedure is very normal; the comment about Soundscan seems US-centric. (The article on Nielsen SoundScan is obscure.)
Precision aside, perhaps "copies" should probably be followed by "in the US", "in the US and Canada", or similar.
The section "Chart performance | Album" seems to be about the US. In it we read that the album continues to sell above or around 100,000 copies weekly. Let's assume 24/7 retailing: this works out at roughly ten copies per minute. Thus "3,270,864" implies precision to less than one minute (as it informs us not of tens of copies but of individual copies). Right then, here's an imagined (fictitious) example that makes sense: By 16 Sep 2005, 03:47:00 GMT, the album had sold 3,270,864 copies in the USA and Canada."
But even though it makes sense, even this is pretty absurd. For what is the significance of 3,270,864 over 3.27 million or perhaps even 3.3 million? I suggest: none. Unless perhaps you have pointy (Vulcan) ears or are nuts about Carey trivia. -- Hoary 04:55, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're exactly right, and have hit the nail on the head of what is an increasingly widespread problem on Wikipedia articles about contemporary albums and singles. Editors seem to dwell on insignificant details (such as listing every single U.S. chart movement the album/single has ever made), and forget to look at the bigger picture, such as what critics thought of the work (weasel terms such as "[unidentified] critics have called this a great album" don't count). The gargantuan size of this articles creates various problems as well: in addition to the excessive wikilinking (Charmbracelet needs to be linked to four times?), parts of the article contradict each other. For example, in the article's lead, it states that the album is Carey's most successful since Rainbow, but further down, it says that it is her most successful since Butterfly. Further elevating this problem is that there are zero references, so you don't know where to look to find your answers. I also agree with your point about the unacceptable U.S. slant to these articles: most of them are written under the assumption that the reader is a) American and b) familiar with music terms such as "A/C", "airplay" and the like. Extraordinary Machine 19:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hear! Hear!  At last some editors who agree with me about these articles (and whose sleeves are rolled up). --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 22:07, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Of course I'm glad to find agreement, and I in turn agree with your new points, but I think you're slightly overstating the American slant or rather the problems with this. My guess is that the articles are not written under the assumption that the reader is American; rather, the writer is American and is making certain unconscious assumptions here. Yes, the writers of these articles are careless in various ways, prolix, and too reluctant to cut what you and I regard as trivia; but on the other hand they have been tremendously energetic and the one I've been corresponding with recently (e.g. here) is open to critical suggestions. Mel has written elsewhere that The deeper trouble is that [the vast majority of these pop-music articles are] defended to the last drop of blood by their "owners" (including poor Wiki-style, poor English style, fanzine language, fan-gush descriptions of minor videos in enervating detail, etc.): I agree with these criticisms of the articles, but not with the criticism of their "owners", who I have found to be reasonable, accepting improvement of the articles. Perhaps I've had the good luck to encounter the more amenable writers, but this would imply that they're not homogenous. Let's try not to make assumptions about other authors' assumptions, but instead concentrate on the articles themselves. -- Hoary 02:46, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spurious precision, dubious accuracy 

message: (Till I know for a fact that it's the "Platinum Edition", I feel free to refer to it as the Zirconium Edition or anything else. Zirconium: makes good tweezers.)
We read:
:It had been reported by Jeramine Dupri that a charity single he had been producing to help victims of Hurricane Katrina would be included. Its reasons for exclusion are not known. The remix of "Shake It Off" was also initially reported to be on the album. Its reasons for exclusion are also not known.
Well, maybe the inital reports resulted from misinformation or mere idle guesswork. Who cares about predictions once they have turned out to be wrong? How is this kind of thing encyclopedic?  -- Hoary 06:36, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It could be interesting to read of canceled plans if those plans can be verified and are somehow significant, or if they can be verified and their cancelation is somehow significant. Where's the significance here? As for Desperate Housewives, I didn't bother to read it: a quick glance at it suggests to me that it could be a good illustration of why not to describe canceled plans: the article is immense (and is screwed up on my browser). (And thanks for the purchase recommendation, but Lol Coxhill is more my taste.) -- Hoary 07:07, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Zirconium Edition rumors

message: Great work, Extraordinary Machine! --FuriousFreddy 11:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  My God...this page is readable now! 

message: I think it should be posted. Most albums that are currently charting have trajectories.
:In the words of user:FuriousFreddy: do we really need to know exactly how a record performed week-by-week on the charts, in the context of an encyclopedia article? Extraordinary Machine 01:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, of course we do. Everyking 19:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we please repost the “Chart Trajectory” for this album? 

message: Now that the charts have been removed, there is hardly, if any, a mention of the album's international success! I think the information that was removed should be put back, which includes its international certifications. Until then, I'll be adding a section on its international success. -- Grey Pursuit February 22, 2006 (UTC)
:After a closer inspection, I've realized that I've overlooked the closing sentences to the first paragraph of 'Chart Performance' to find a brief, yet mention nonetheless of the album's international success. I apologize for the overcite, but I still feel that the article is lacking of any substantial coverage of its international success (or non-success).
::Well, considering it sold 9million+ worldwide and got to number one on the world charts, hardly non-success!
WHY DOES EXTRAORDINARY MACHINE KEEP DELETING THE CHART TRAJECTORIES?!
:WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. Lots of users have restored the trajectories (going to so far as to create entirely new articles for them), but none of them have explained to me why every single week-by-week chart movement of the album is worth mentioning in an encyclopedia. We're not "all-inclusive", we're supposed to provide succinct summaries of information. 
:You should also take a closer look at the version you insist on reverting to: Fly Like A Bird is a redirect link back to this article, and it was incorrectly capitalised anyway. Extraordinary Machine 18:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of users who have provided no good reasons for the re-insertion of the chart trajectories, compared to one user who has quoted official Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia is not a democracy; it's not simply a case of "majority rules". This issue has been discussed elsewhere (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Tables for charts and Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pop music issues), with the general consensus being that listing every single week-by-week movement of an album or single should not be done. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a compendium of all human knowledge. Just write "It has remained in the top twenty for x weeks": it's succinct and saves space while preserving the actual meaning of all those numbers. See also Wikipedia:Trivia and Wikipedia:Fancruft. Extraordinary Machine 22:12, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, but let's be honest.  This article is primarily for fans of Mariah Carey.  They want the chart trajectory.  I wanted to see the chart trajectory just now, and I was unable to find the information that I was looking for on Wikipedia.  This was disappointing.  I don't understand why it's such a big deal if there a little table that has the chart trajectory on it; if people don't need to know it they can easy pass by it since it's inside of a table.
I propose not just the inclusion of the trajectory, but a chart performance subarticle to go into further detail about the chart performance both in the U.S. and internationally. I think there is a lot to say here, plenty to fill a subarticle. Extraordinary Machine's concerns about being concise do have some merit, but in general we should look towards creating subarticles if the main article is getting too lengthy, instead of trimming detail and not putting it anywhere else. I am quite certain that there are many people who would be grateful to us for the info. Everyking 19:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: If you believe that the information belongs in the article, then be bold and include it yourself. After all, we are here to build an encyclopedia! :) —Eternal Equinox | talk 03:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

text: . Extraordinary Machine 17:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  International chart performance! GONE! 

message: *Has this album gotten to 10 million in worldwide album sales yet?
*Yes It has. The album has officialy shipped 10 million this month.
::: No way, that is just a newspaper article on a fansite. The only official data is 7.7m in 2005 (IFPI). I see Orane is quick to request sources for other artists, but accepts the highest bidder for Mariah, even if it comes from a fansite.I find it hard to believe it's sold 2.3m extra since, as it has sold only in the US since its release, and it had already lost steam by January.
::: Also, of the 7.7m shipped declared by Island to the IFPI as per 31st dec 2005, 5.5 were shipped to the US, 2.2 to the rest of the world (including the final shipment to the EU). There have not been shipments outside the uS since, and about 500K in the uS. That means 8.2, which by the way, is what Island declare. So, 8.2 shipped seems to be the real data. It's a lot and soes  not need boosting.
*Billboard and the Today show said TEOM shipped/sold over 9 million by early May of this year. Her newsletter officialy stated that TEOM has shipped/sold 10 million worldwide. Here are the sources 
*I just wanna ask. Is it true that TEOM has reach 7 million copies. Because from what i saw in mariahdaily.com in 2006 TEOM has sold 1,968,531 copies. So if we add that sales with the 2005 sales so now TEOM has been sold 6,937,137 copies. So it must be 7 platinum now. But is it true?
*No, those were sales for the 2006 Billboard Calender year (Nov. 2005 - Nov. 2006). The album has sold 5.75 million so far.72.94.46.100 02:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 10 million yet?

message: I placed a chart in to show the chart positions all six singles in the countries listed. However, the last two singles Say Somethin' and Fly Like A Bird I do not know the chart positions for them in Canada, Austrailia and other European countries. If anyone knows them please add them in.
Plus does anyone know if there will a UK release for Fly Like A Bird?
:I removed them. This is an article about the album, not the singles, and it is quite long anyway. Extraordinary Machine 20:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The singles chart

message: The album wasn't as good as critics described, but most of the songs were pretty good. I really bought the album like four times. --So Fresh and So Clean_Wish U Was Me 18:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The album's value 

message: Isn't this her tenth studio album?  I would consider Merry Christmas to be a studio album.  The Mariah Carey article also displays ten studio albums in the discography section.  --musicpvm 01:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ninth studio album? 

message: This article desperately needs references.  That is why I added the tag up there.  All her quotes need to be attributed.  All the background about how songs came about has to be referenced as well.  I can't find any info on Brenda K. Starr's quote on Mariah Carey.  The only pages that mention this are copies of earlier versions of Brenda K. Starr.  And when was she Mariah's best friend?  All of these things (and more) need references. SKS2K6 01:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Someone should find the picture of Beyoncé that looks just like this album cover --58.163.148.240 04:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beyoncé look alike 

message: I think this matter should be discussed. Reidlos (talk) 16:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 10 million shipped/sold???

message: The 'writing/recording' section is not sourced. Please source it. Thanks. 64.26.99.120 (talk) 22:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 'writing/recording' section is not sourced

message: Where are the credits? At the moment there are only writers listed. Adabow (talk · contribs) 07:03, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That is all Allmusic sources :S Take a look at the reference--CallMeNathan  • Talk2Me  13:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Credits 

message: This appears at the end of the section about the singles: "The latter was released as the album's sixth and final single. Released to US urban and urban adult contemporary radio stations, "Say Somethin'" was released to pop and rhythmic radio stations." I can't figure out which songs these sentences are referring to. Could you please enlighten me? Thanks. --Dianna (talk) 01:23, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Just write to me with these issues Di, I wrote the page :) Yes "Say Somethin'" was released as the fifth single, at the same time "Fly Like a Bird" was as the sixth. "Say Somethin'" was released to pop and rhythmic radio stations, while "Fly Like a Bird" to US urban and urban adult contemporary radio stations. It is confusing, you're right, I was just reading it.--CallMeNathan  • Talk2Me  01:26, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There seems to be some content missing here: " S, which featured a heavy-techno accompaniment to the original intrumentation." --Dianna (talk) 01:43, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. That was from an older version.--CallMeNathan  • Talk2Me  10:30, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  August 2011 copy edit 

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message: The album has officially sold 6,080,000 in the USA, and the other markets where it had big sales were UK with 620,000, Japan with 260,000 and Canada with 300,000, it sold less than 1 million in other territories, 10 million is a more than generous amount and there are SEVERAL SOURCES that state that, the ones claiming that the album sold 12 million are the same who say that Michael Jackson's Thriller sold 100 million copies. Alberto279 (talk) 00:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop with the 12 million copies sold already 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :I Wish You Knew. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 26#I Wish You Knew until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "I Wish You Knew" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: "Don't Forget About Us" complies with Template:Infobox album#Template:Singles because it was not "added as bonus tracks on a re-release of an album", but added to the Ultra Platinum Edition which is the official reissue of the album and a significant commercial single release. "Fly Like a Bird" however was never commercially released in any territory and is only a promotional single and does not comply BiebersBoyMendes (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't Forget About Us 

message: I added "Don't Forget About Us" because it does comply with Template:Infobox album#Template:Singles because it was not "added as bonus tracks on a re-release of an album", but was released specifically to promote the reissue. Secondly, the cover of the Ultra Platinum Edition should be placed as the Alternative cover.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.195.131 (talk) 13:16, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't Forget About Us/Ultra Platinum Edition