Talk:Big Boss (Metal Gear)/Archive 1

message: When did Big Boss serve in the SAS? Metal gear ninty 09:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SAS 

message: Folks, if you type Naked Snake in the search it goes to Big Boss page. THIS IS A SPOILER!
We're NOT suposed to know his true identity before the end of the game. And that picture too, please!
I sugest creating another article to Naked Snake with his picture and all that. And link to this one at the end. I've changed his pic to the old one, so it don't spoil who comes around it.
And about the names, just keep it as unknown, since there's no way to know his real name.
:I think anybody who wouldn't be able to figure out that Naked Snake is Big Boss wouldn't take any interest in who Big Boss is, nor would finding out the connection be of any interest.
:That image came from the official MGS3 website, it's the picture they provide of Naked Snake, eyepatch and all. I'm fine with the image replacement, though, I'd been wanting to get a bio-drawing of him on here.  --Asriel 06:36, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
::Yes, I completely agree of that last image being Naked Snake, but not being Big Boss. Once you say they are the same person, it's a game spoiler. First of all, when Kojima released trailers about the game, it was not clear he was Big Boss, it was just an assumption. And in the game you only know he's Big Boss at the end of the game. I guess we could make two different pages, one to each person. And put the same profile, alerting Spoilers at the beginning. But when you enter the page, the image may spoil anyone. I don't know how to split Naked Snake from Big Boss, tho. I'm a newbah here. Thanks for the understanding of my first post. It's nice to have people who believe in this place and want to make it better.
:::If you guys feel that way about the Naked Snake/Big Boss article, then what about the Gray Fox one (which reveals that the Cyborg Ninja is Gray Fox)? Should there be a seperate article for the Cyborg Ninja or is Gray Fox not enough of a major character to warrant one?
::::Well, just to state, I've created a separate page to Naked Snake now. The pages are pretty identical, except for the picture and the first description, ok? So if you're gonna update one, update the other too. Now, this Gray Fox thing I just don't get. Could you explain it again, plz? -Imperator 21:22, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My question is about the following article: Gray Fox (Metal Gear) and whether there should be seperate articles for the Gray Fox and Cyborg Ninja identities or simply keep them together. -Jonny2x4 02:27, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are no spoilers in pictures, are there? So I think it shouldn't. Anyway, Naked Snake page was edited. It now shows only a brief message and refer to Big Boss page then. I think it's better this way -Imperator 18:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Naked Snake looks identical to Solid Snake...the game's set in the 60's...we know that Big Boss was a soldier in the 60's....and was used to create Solid Snake...don't you think it was intentionally obvious? I mean without knowing the cloning part, and considering the time-setting, you'd only assume they had to be related in some way to look that similar. I don't think it was ever meant to be a secret that Naked Snake was Big Boss. I pretty much considered myself as Big Boss all the way through the game...I was just waiting till the end to prove it.
Um...here's what I don't get. This is an encyclopedia. If people didn't want to risk seeing spoilers about characters, then they shouldn't be looking up encylopedic documents about them. Since when is putting information about the character inappropriate for wikipedia? Also, it was common knowledge who Naked Snake was before the game was even released. Anyone who doesn't know either doesn't care or is in dire need of being clued in on the matter anyway.
Not everybody has a good enough knowledge of MGS to predict that Naked Snake is Big Boss by just merely glancing at when the story was set, therefore, I think it was a good move to seperate the two articles.Metal gear ninty 09:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  OMG, Spoilers! 

message: "After Big Boss activated the base's self-destruct countdown, the two of them engaged in one-on-one combat, with Big Boss fighting using the same Patriot machine gun he had received from The Boss in their own final confrontation decades earlier."
This sounds to me a lot like fanon; even though it seems like what Kojima would do, there is absolutely no way to confirm what weapon Unknown uses, other than a machine gun. And don't talk about the infinite ammo, either--Machine Gun Kid, the Shotgunner, "Arnold", and Coward Duck all have infinite ammo, because of the gameplay mechanics. 
:I took care of it. Besides, Big Boss left the Patriot on Boss' grave.  --Asriel 13:58, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
: Which was pretty irresponsible when you think about it... (Ulicus 16:05, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? I don't see ANYTHING wrong with putting a fully functional, modded, assault carbine with infinite ammo on a military grave. :P 83.227.160.135 10:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hahahaha.....LOL..Still laughing. He should have buried it. -- Psi edit 19:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Metal Gear 1's final battle

message: I've changed all references to Solidus being an *exact* duplicate of Big Boss since this is an assumption - he was said to be a perfectly balanced "masterpiece" between dominant and recessive, not an exact duplicate of Big Boss.  Now, in actual fact he may well be - but I find this to be highly unlikely.  After all, how could he be considered anyone's "masterpiece" if he had no genetic tampering? Similarly, it's unlikely that Big Boss, as a naturally born human being, was *exactly* inbetween Solid and Liquid in the same way that Solidus was said to be - or at least as I recall him to be(Ulicus 04:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solidus... *exact* duplicate? 

message: It seems that someone has repeatedly changed this article to say that Solid Snake possesses the dominant genes and Liquid possesses the recessive ones. Of course, the opposite is true. Listen to what Ocelot says after the credits; he makes it abundantly clear that Snake has the recessives and Liquid has the dominants.
Now, I've heard some people contend this, saying "Ocelot says Liquid's superior, not that he has dominant genes." But that reasoning doesn't hold any water.
Liquid: "You're fine. You got all the old man's dominant genes. I got all the flawed, recessive genes."
Liquid asserts two things during his speech on top of REX:
1. That Snake has the dominant genes and Liquid has the recessive ones.
2. That because dominant genes are better, Snake is superior and Liquid is inferior.
Then, after the credits, Ocelot says, "The inferior one was the winner after all. That's right. Until the very end, Liquid thought he was the inferior one."
Therefore, one of Liquid's statements must be wrong. But which one? Either he is ignorant of the science, and recessive genes are really superior to dominant ones, or he is ignorant of the history, and Snake really got the recessive genes instead of the dominant ones.
With his 180 I.Q., it is extremely unlikely that Liquid would make a stupid scientific error. Naomi, a geneticist herself, doesn't correct him and say that recessive genes are superior. Neither does Nastasha's book, doubtlessly fact-checked before publication. Neither does Otacon, not a geneticist by trade, but an all-around smart guy. No one in the series ever contends the fact that dominant genes are superior.
The conclusion that we're meant to draw is that Snake has the recessive, inferior genes. It fits in with one of the game's major themes, that a person's fate isn't ruled by their genetics. I think it's safe to say that the majority of people who've played MGS came to the same conclusion.
Of course, real life genetics isn't as simple as dominant and recessive, good and bad. But we're talking about the fictionalized world of Metal Gear, where a guy can replace his severed arm with someone else's and not worry about host rejection. Then get possessed by the arm's original, dead owner. Then dive underwater with a huge walking tank. In Metal Gear, dominant genes are the best, Liquid has them, and Snake doesn't.
----
Read the discussion on the Solid Snake page. 
That Snake has the "inferior" genes is not disputed and yes, the first time I played MGS, I came to the same conclusion of "Snake has the recessive genes".  But thinking about it - and in light of Snake Eater, it makes very little sense that Big Boss should be so similar to the son that is carrying the genes that he does not (for the most part) express.
Similarly, bringing Liquid's high IQ into the discussion means nothing - IQ is not a measure of one's knowledge on a subject. Especially when Liquid says: "One a genetic level we are identical" before moments later telling us that he and Snake have different genes entirely... of course, as you say, this *is* the world of Metal Gear, heh heh. 
I mean, thinking about it, Snake and Liquid should not even look alike - genes dicate appearance as well. Unless Liquid was generalising, and all he meant was "I got all the flawed recessive *soldier* genes" (which makes little sense, since they had not been identified at that time... but whatever)
As for Liquid making a "stupid scientific error", let's be fair - if you have your father telling you that you have the "flawed" recessive genes - and then finally meet your *legendary* twin brother, who was the one who beat the "Greatest Warrior of the 20th Century" and even SOUNDS like Big Boss - you're bound to jump to the conclusion that he's the "better clone".
When you say "in 'Metal Gear', dominant genes are the best", what you should really be saying is that "in 'Metal Gear' Big Boss' dominant genes are *supposedly* the best."
Since Big Boss would express his dominant genes and was the best solider around, one would tend to assume this was the case.  In my view (and therefore, it's not in any of the articles), this supposition is wrong - and the Patriots (assumedly the people behind the project) and those who had been a part of the Patriots operations (Solidus, Ocelot) are the only people who know it.
Using Liquid's assertations cannot prove your point, since Liquid was *wrong*. Liquid says that he recieved the "flawed recessive genes" - and that is his basis for believing that he is inferior. In truth he is superior - and that can come about in *two* ways:
By replacing "flawed" with "superior", or "recessive" with "dominant".
As such, until it is explicitly stated - we should not attribute the recessive or dominant genes to either twin, simply mention that they were split into recessive and dominant - and that Solid was the "inferior", whilst Liquid was the "superior".
Side-note: I'm not the one who frequently changed this article...
(Ulicus 16:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dominant and recessive 

message: Just curious as to where the information on Big Boss' role in WWII came from - because, given that The Boss dismisses him as a "child" at the end of the Virtuous Mission, and states later that she "raised" him, while Big Boss himself describes her as a "mother", I had him a pegged as being a bit younger than that... late twenties to early thirties: thirty-one at the most. That would mean that he was serving in the military when he was about 11/12...
If it's from an old Metal Gear/MG: Solid Snake manual - I don't really think it should be included, since there have been changes to the characters since then. I mean, hell, SE even retconned information from SoL - because there is no way that Naked Snake was in his late fifties by 1972. He'd be older than The Boss - and she was 44 at most.
Ah well, it's not a huge concern - I'm just interested tis all.
(Ulicus 16:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Big Boss' role in WWII 

message: There is no evidence whatsoever that Solidus came from a second batch. It is never stated in MGS2. I'm removing it. If you have proof. Please feel free to state it. Thank you.
*He may not be from a second batch, but he is not from the first one. Two out of the eight embryos of the first batch became Liquid and Solid, the rest were killed in order to make Liquid and Solid stronger. 83.227.160.135 10:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solidus is not from a second batch 

message: Be mindful that it is certainly feasible that Solidus, through The Les Enfants Project, had recessive and dominant genes balanced within him more perfectly than nature had actually done within the original, namely Big Boss.  That would place Solidus on the same level as the other two Snakes, in the sense that he is indeed a clone, but one in which recessive and dominant genes have purposefully been tampered with making for subtle differences between the clones and the original lifeform.  Something which is seen quite prominently in the case of both Solid and Liquid Snake.  
But because there is no substantial proof either way I'd suggest any statements along the lines of 'exact replica' or 'perfect copy' be permanently removed from the article's relevant sections.  There's less chance of the article including any incorrect information this way.  80.201.169.202 15:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you keep in mind the explanation Kojima gives in MGSnaked, none of the three Snakes (Solid, Liquid and Solidus) are really better or worse from each other. They were all born from the same vintage 70's cloning technology and thus, they weren't actually capable of altering a gene's phenotypes back then. I always theorized The Patriots lied to Solidus, Liquid and Ocelot on who's superior, when they're really all the same (just like how they lied to Ocelot about the S3 Plan being a "Solid Snake Simulation"). Of course, this is just my theory. Jonny2x4 06:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exact replica of Big Boss? 

message: " However, Big Boss can also be viewed as a hypocrite, since his very objective with establishing Outer Heaven was violated by using Solid Snake as an expendable chess piece in the Zanzibar Land Incident. " 
When I take a look at the canonical context of the Outer Heaven crisis, I have to say that this comment strikes me as being subjective in nature when compared to any of the other current content of the article's "Motives" section.  Solid Snake's infiltration of Outer Heaven was, for all intended purposes, an operation which was instigated by the government and thus by The Patriots, with Big Boss being the obvious and unavoidable relaystation of these orders in officially being the FOXHOUND commander at that time.  In the end, the decision wasn't his, the plan wasn't of his making either, nor was he the "player" who was ultimately moving this "expendable chess piece".  Also, in being FOXHOUND's commander and thus someone officially partaking in the infiltration of Outer Heaven in the capacity of Solid Snake's commanding officer, it could be argued through this logic that Big Boss too was nothing but such a chess piece in the hands of The Patriots, at least within the lines of the operation.  Lastly, according to the canonical storyline, Big Boss never expected the rookie Solid Snake to be a genuine threat to Outer Heaven as is evidenced by the fact that he does not begin to attempt to hinder Snake's efforts until well into the later stages of the operation.
The bottom line is that this issue seems far too debatable to be permanently added to the article's content in my opinion.  In contrast to the 'may even elevate Big Boss to the level of anti-hero' part, which rather is an objective conclusion based upon the canonical events of Metal Gear Solid 3, in which Kojima himself clearly labored to give Big Boss a more human dimension without therefore excusing the character's future actions at the same time.
Unless the original author of the 'hypocrisy' statement can provide very clear reasons as to why it shouldn't be considered subjective even in the light of the issues raised above, I propose that we remove it permanently. 217.136.186.199 07:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alledged hypocrisy of Big Boss? 

message: Please add pictures from Metal Gear Portable Ops. If you could add a picture of Big Boss in his new suit from Portable Ops to the Big Boss page and to the Portable Ops page.  - anonymous - 12:57, 27 May 2006
Done (The Bread 11:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: MPO

message: I've noticed this is getting edit-reverted a bit by people, so we need to come to a consensus here about it. Essentially, we can either use the young one or old one. In my opinion, the old one is better, for the following reasons:1) Naked Snake becomes Big Boss after Snake Eater - during Snake Eater he is not Big Boss. From this viewpoint using the young image is wrong.2) The old one is the official artwork of Big Boss which has been around for years and is the one people most associate with Big Boss.3) The young one looks too much like Solid Snake and could lead to people getting confused. 
Obviously my opinion isn't law and this is open to discussion. -- Steel 14:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and 4) The whole spoiler thing that was discussed above. -- Steel 14:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artwork 

message: This is related to the artwork debate above. Mainly due to spoiler issues, I'm suggesting that all the information on BB while he is still known as Naked Snake is moved to the Naked Snake article. I think a separation needs to be made between pre- and post-Snake Eater Naked Snake. Comments? -- Steel 20:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should Naked Snake redirect here? 

message: Get those images sourced right away before a person comes in and deletes them for not having a source posted. You know exactly which person I am talking about. The Shinkawa art picture, the salute picture, the Metal Gear 2 pictures, and the Naked Snake action pose picture are the most important.--Snake Liquid 18:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: This article is not eligible for good article status as it fails multiple criteria.  I shall address all of these.  As someone who plays many video games but has no knowledge of this one, I do not feel that I am entirely a non-specialist reader, but I was lost at the introduction.  I cannot imagine a non-gamer being able to follow it at all.  I had to spend more time consulting links than reading the article.  Perhaps the most necessary changes will have to be made to the items under criterion 2, "factually accurate and verifiable".  I feel that this article fails all of the items under this section, which are as follows:
        (a) it provides references to any and all sources used for its material;
        (b) the citation of its sources is essential, and the use of inline citations is desirable, although not mandatory;
        (c) sources should be selected in accordance with the guidelines for reliable sources;
        (d) it contains no elements of original research.
Furthermore, because it seems major editing is and has been ongoing since the nomination of the article, as evidenced by an empty references section, I feel that this article fails the stability requirement.  I cannot accurately comment on bredth or NPOV in this article, because I have no personal knowledge of it, and no references to consult, by which to make such commentary.  I regret that this article cannot pass at this time, but I encourage the editors to address these issues and resubmit their article for further criticism and good article status approval!  Cheers!  Chuchunezumi 18:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article nomination failed

message: Would Big Boss form part of the :Category:Fictional fathers?
:Yeah probably
:†he Bread 02:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fictional fathers