Talk:The Innocents Abroad

message: Amoruso, these are false observations again from Twain regarding the temple mount. Certainly marble stones were not only used by muslims in al-Aqsa mosque, but used at almost every mosque of that period. Much of the marble found in today's al-Aqsa mosque comes from work done by Sultan Suleyman the Magnificient... Therefore, I have no idea what Twain is talking about. Certainly he is not an architect so that has words are taken literaly. Innocent Abroad is not another bible! Almaqdisi 23:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's WP:OR. Amoruso 23:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it's very relevant to the al aqsa article for example because it's a reference to al aqsa by Mark Twain, a very famous figure who wrote one of the best-sellers of all times. This passage is famous, it's cited in many places. The word famous is not that imporant, I don't care for it, simply it's notable enough for the section. Not sure of the reference you added here... if it doesn't discuss Twain's observation, then it belongs in a different section I believe. Amoruso 15:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it makes a lot of sense and others have made the same claim. The Dome of the Rock actually has palm, grape and fig designs (jewish symbols). Amoruso 17:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Ah, :), I now understand what you say. I think these are because of this Quranic verse, let me find it, here it is 95:1 the verse of fig. Almaqdisi 17:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ? and the 12 pillars are 12 islamic tribes. Amoruso 17:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  False Observations 

message: As elsewhere in Innocents Abroad, Twain was reacting to Victorian excesses in enthusiasm for foreign places. I have given the actual name and title of his source; Twain did not, because he thought Prime one example of a large class. Twain is, to my eye, engaging in considerably less Orientalism than his sources (consider his account of a Turkish bath); and is almost entirely reacting to their flamboyance. 
Should we include the name (Grimes) Twain gave to Prime? Should we cite Prime's description of Gennasereth, which is factually almost identical to Twain's, but has much less rhetoric? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Prime

message: An anon editor is disputing the accuracy of Kathleen Christison's comments found in her 1999 book. Because the anons comments are un-sourced it is problematic. The anons comments probably have some kernel of truth to them, so rather then deleting it out-right, I have added fact tags as a courtesy to the anon editor to provide some supporting evidence for these views. The best and easiest way is to just cite another authors published works which say these things. If this can't be supported it will have to be removed per WP:OR. -- Stbalbach 19:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Original Research is for deletion.  If the anon comes back with a citation to a reliable source giving these opinions, we can reconsider. --Zerotalk 07:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's your right to delete it outright. The purpose of fact tags is a courtesy to give the person a chance to fix the problem and to note specifically where the problem is. -- Stbalbach 15:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kathleen Christison 

message: Do we really need massive paragraphs taken from the text? Isn't that what Wikisource is for? If it was decided earlier that they were useful, or should be included, then I would appreciate a link to the discussion and you can then disregard this comment. 68.39.174.238 04:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears this article has turned into some sort of battleground over a subject that could easily be reduced to a single summary paragraph. -- Stbalbach 15:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uninvolved comment: 

message: Since the title of the book is The Innocents Abroad, should the article title be changed to match? -- Danny (talk) 14:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: I'm requesting a move to The Innocents Abroad, to match the cover of the book pictured and the first sentence of the article. I asked about this a couple weeks ago, and nobody's responded. I tried to make the change, but it won't let me move the page over the redirect. I hope an administrator can make the change, unless someone objects. -- Danny (talk) 11:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Support This should be non-controversial. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article has been moved from "Innocents Abroad" to The Innocents Abroad as the result of a move request. Dekimasuよ! 12:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! -- Danny (talk) 21:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: This entire mess is, however.
   
:Kathleen Christison, an American author who spent sixteen years as an analyst for the CIA was critical of Twain's descriptions of the Holy Land in a 1999 book:   
::In modern times, Twain's exaggerations have become grist for the mills of those who propagate the line that Palestine was a desolate land until settled and cultivated by Jewish pioneers. Twain's descriptions are high in Israeli government press handouts that present a case for Israel's redemption of a land that had previously been empty and barren. His gross characterizations of the land and the people in the time before mass Jewish immigration are also often used by U.S. propagandists for Israel.<:ref>K. Christison, Perceptions of Palestine: Their Influence on U.S. Middle East Policy, Univ. of California Press, 1999; p16.</ref>... Twain's description of the all-Arab town of Nablus is typical... Calling the town Shechem, its biblical name, he described in detail the ancient roots of Jews there but never mentioned an Arab presence and only once used the name Nablus.<:ref>Christison, p20.</ref> In fact, Nablus had a population of 20,000 who were almost all Arabs apart from a few Samaritans.<:ref>B. B. Doumani, The political economy of population counts in Ottoman Palestine: Nablus, Circa 1950, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol 26 (1994) 1-17.</ref>   
    
::Historical revisionism cannot alter the fact that Mark Twain's descriptions of Palestine are vindicated by official British documentation:       
::Peel Commission   
   
:The Arab population shows a remarkable increase since 1920, and it has had some share in the increased prosperity of Palestine. Many Arab landowners have benefited from the sale of land and the profitable investment of the purchase money. The fellaheen are better off on the whole than they were in 1920. This Arab progress has been partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the National Home. In particular, the Arabs have benefited from social services which could not have been provided on the existing scale without the revenue obtained from the Jews.   
   
:(....)       
:: Up till now the Arab cultivator has benefited on the whole both from the work of the British Administration and the presence of Jews in the country...   
:   
: The shortage of land is due less to purchase by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was bought.   
:    
: PEEL COMMISSION REPORT, 1937   
:    
: Woodhead Commission   
:    
: It has been alleged that the Jews have acquired the best land in Palestine. It does not appear to me a fair statement. That much of the land now in possession of Jews has _become_ the best land is a truer statement...It was impossible not to be impressed when inspecting some of the bare rocky places where Jewish settlements have been or are in the course of being made. Such remarkable efforts may well disturb statistics.</p>    
:    
: MINORITY REPORT, WOODHEAD COMMISSION REPORT, 19 Oct, 1938. 
 
All of this is tangential to the book itself, consisting of 
*one author who chooses to kick off her description of Palestine by controverting the only nineteenth century descriptions her readers are likely to have seen, 
*and some arguments she was wrong. 
Actual scholarly discussion of IA confirms the obvious: that Twain is mocking the contemporary American travel books which show the Holy Land as a land of milk and honey, as he mocks their artistic pieties about Italy and Athens. None of this is relevant to the article, and we should have, at most, a two sentence summary, after the remarks on OT kingdoms being smaller than some towns. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Christison

message: The portion I removed sounds as though it were from the mouth of a critic -- but which critic?  --VKokielov (talk) 05:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Criticism" 

message: I started reading Innocents Abroad, and checked out the wiki entry. Saw the request for encyclopedic writing and started to work with the material and add content.  I have moved two essays to the bottom of the wiki page for further consideration how they might be altered to reflect the encyclopedic tone and so on.  I've also deleted some references that were unclear, and have so noted in the comments to my edits.
I don't have a lot of time for this project and I certainly do not want to interfere with a vision or a purpose that the original editors to this entry had in mind.
Best,
Pinckney2007 (talk) 16:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some encyclopedic changes 

message: 12/08/08
I removed this clean-up tag, and I'm not sure what to what to insert in its place, or whether a replacement is required.  I'd appreciate a reminder of the editing FAQ for wiki.
Best,
Pinckney2007 (talk) 16:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean  up in progress tag? 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_messages#Maintenance
Pinckney2007 (talk) 16:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Found the material from my user page! 

message: I'm not quite sure why we post twice when we edit a page, or who we talk to, when we post to the talk page, but I'll say that I've added in a couple of paragraphs, 
Here's one for the overview of the book from my perspective:  
"Analysis
At first blush, Innocents Abroad is an ordinary travel book. It is based on an actual expedition, in a retired Civil War ship (the USS Quaker City). The excursion upon which the book is based was billed as a Holy Land expedition, with numerous stops along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, as well as a train excursion from Marseilles, France to Paris for the 1867 Paris Expedition, and a side trip through the Baltic Sea to Odessa, all before the ultimate pilgrimage to the Holy Land."
Also, I added in an explanation for why I gave little serial summaries of the first 12 chapters in an  overview to that section.
Pinckney2007 (talk) 16:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Posting to talk page 

message: I abbreviated the chapter summaries to focus on unique features from the book, from sights described in the chapter, and/or links to important Mark Twain projects that include Innocents Abroad in their discussion
Thanks to my mentor Kevin I'm figuring out how to talk on the talk pages.  :)
Pinckney2007 (talk) 16:05, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abbreviated chapter summaries 

message: Wonderful addition.  Thanks for sharing it!  I wonder if there's a way to give it greater emphasis.  I'm thinking of adding a parenthetical explanation that highlights the depth of content on that little link, so subtly placed among other stuff.
Pinckney2007 (talk) 23:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pabiggin's map