Talk:Yoga/Archive 3

message: Thanks Paul_foord for archiving talk. I was meaning to get around to it, but always found an excuse for delaying. Best regards. --Fencingchamp 18:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thank You, Paul 

message: In the section "God in Yoga philosophy", it is stated that "The philosophy of Yoga also gave certain logical proofs for the existence of God" and then proceeds to list assertions which are neither logical, nor proofs. For instance: "Law of Continuity: people and things have various degrees of differences among themselves. Some people are foolish, some are wise. Hence it is logical to say that there must be some Being who has the highest level of knowledge among all—who is omniscient. That Being is God."
The conclusion does not follow from the premises, as there is a leap required to move from "because some people are X while others are Y, there must be one person who is both XY." The mere fact that one thing has one property while another has another property in no way guarantees that there must be a third thing with all properties. The rest of the proofs mentioned suffer from similar elementary mistakes. I'll attempt to fix the terminology while preserving the intended meaning of the passage (removing references to logic, etc).
:well thanks very much for the effort. Get yourself a username and join the crowd. --Nemonoman 04:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious "logic" 

message: Hey Nem,
There are 4 Yoga lineages...Bhakti, Karma, Raja, Jyana.  You know that.
There are several Yoga schools with legitimate Sat-Guric lineages...Sankya/Raja/Jyana (Swami Rama), Raja/Ashtanga (Krishnamikurti/K. Patabi Jois; Sri Satchinanada; Sri Sivanada; BKS Iyengar, etc.), Raja/Bhakta (Vivikenanada; Yogananda, etc.), Karma (Ram Dass, Neem Koroli Baba)...
Everything else is a derivative style, or presentation:
Power Yoga (Beryl Bender Birch)
Anasurya (John Friend)
Yoga Zone (Alan Finger)
all forms of Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga (Baron Baptiste; Shiva Rea)
Bhikram Yoga
Anahata Yoga
Om Yoga
etc...
...and therefore, in my opinion, reference to it is POV, as most of the style/presentation derivatives are driven by the need to market a product or present a personal interpretation of the sutras by a single individual, usually someone more than once removed from a lineage, and in many cases not even a Sadhaka (initiated disciple).  This is akin to a black belt, who is generally considered a beginner in traditional martial arts practice, opening a school, versus an "inner door" disciple doing the same.
And this a lot like the issues we have in martial arts.  Unless, you can trace the lineage of the style you practice through your teacher back to the developer/founder (Chen, Ling, Ueshiba, Musashi, etc.) in a straight line, what you're doing is likely dervative.  Like, there isn't a hell of a lot of difference between Shotokan Kai, Seido, and Oyama...but Nakamura Sensei (Seido) and Oyama Sensei (Oyama) are presenting Shotokan Kai in a personal/family dervative form.  So Shotokan is a lineage, but Seido and Oyama are dervative styles.  The same could be said of the Kung Fu lineages...there are 5 legitimate Temple lineages.  Everything else is derivative, even someone like Vincent Lin, who can trace his Ling Gar system back to his 23 generations back grandfather.
On a personal note, I am both a Sadhaka of Sri Swami Rama, and an "inner door" disciple of the Lung Men Taoist Grandmaster Li Ten Tung.  I would neither presume to present my own style of Yoga, nor open a martial arts school.  It reflects ego, and presumption.
It's a slippery slope, and one upon which I would welcome debate, but I felt it was it legitimate distinction.  Mjformica 11:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The four you have listed, I have seen called the four "major" schools of yoga, however I have also seen: mantra, kundalini and tantra listed as major schools. Yoga is much larger then those four schools. Sethie 16:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't say these were schools, but lineages.  Mantram is a practice within Bhakti I am certain my teacher Gurudhan Sihng would agree that Kundalini is a specific branch within Ashtanga.  And Tantra, both Red and White, is distinguished by both Pandit Rajmani Tuginate and Yogi Bhajan as a branch of Raja.  Mjformica 16:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yoga schools versus styles 

message: I know that one is supposed to be bold when editing Wikipedia, but the yoga article particularly has been notable for the attempts of its editors to find consensus before making large scale changes. If you intend to support your initial edits with this logic, you have made a major change. 
Your say that I "know" there are four major schools, and your further description of how those lineages play out. I don't know any such thing. In fact, my knowledge on this subject is quite different. I don't pretend that my knowledge is scholarship, but what little I know is at variance from the 'facts' as you present them. 
I am particularly disturbed by your suggestion that yogic lineage must conform to your personal standards based on your understanding of martial arts. I don't 'know' that I agree. 
I am copying our discussion to the Yoga talk page, where it really belongs, it turns out.--Nemonoman 15:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I don't 'know' any such thing

message: :::Is it really a concern, or, as you first pointed out, my POV.  I'm beginning to wonder at mu own logic.  --Mjformica 18:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well said. --Mjformica 20:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further discussion

message: I have very much been considering removing the Hinduism templates from the article, even as Deepak Gupta has been removing the mention other religions. 
The difference is that I plan to make my case in the discussion pages before I make this change. 
I am very concerned that Deepak Gupta's edits are not valid. This matter is clearly not resolved, and clearly not resolved enough to change the opening as drastically as he is doing. 
I am rv'ing his changes.--Nemonoman 23:48, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is Yoga Specifically Hindu??

message: Yoga and Hinduism are very intertwined, but is Yoga a specifically Hindu practice??
I think not so. 
I therefore don't think this article belongs as part of the Hinduism Project. 
I also don't think this article should have a "Hinduism" template.
Are there analogs with other practices and other religions? Consider Christmas: Originally a simple feast of the Catholic Church, now an international, denomination-neutral, often secular celebration. It would out of place to put a "Roman Catholicism" Template in that article. 
In much the same way, Yoga -- whose Hindu origins are NOT proven, although clearly relevant -- has passed outside the boundaries of Hinduism. 
Further, what might reasonably called Yoga is central to many forms of Buddhism, in particular. I don't know that it would be proper to say that Buddhism is simply an offshoot of Hinduism. 
I THEREFORE PROPOSE that the HINDUISM template be removed from this article.
I FURTHER PROPOSE that we agree that in this article, Yoga will be presented as a practice NOT CURRENTLY OWNED BY ANY SPECIFIC FAITH.--Nemonoman 00:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further Concerns

message: The "Notable Yogis" section has become a complete mess. There is no coherence to it.
I THEREFORE PROPOSE that the "Notable Yogis" section be restructured:
(1)Notable Yogis: This section to be a CHRONOLOGICALLY ORDERED SECTION identifying individuals, principally DEAD individuals, and their specific contributions to the awareness, expansion, or spread of Yoga practices.
(2)Modern Yogis: This section to be an ALPHABETICAL LISTING of LIVING individuals with SUBSTANTIAL CREDENTIALS. Specifically, I recommend that it ONLY INCLUDE individuals with non-stubbed Wiki articles. 
--Nemonoman 00:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More proposals: Notable Yogis

message: How many Sri's are required. Neem Karoli Baba's followers called him Sri Sri 1008 Sri Nem Karoli Baba. Are all 1008 Sri's strictly necessary for this article? I'm particularly looking at Sri Sri Anandamurti...
What about ZERO Sri's per Yogi? If not Zero, how about maximum of 1 (one) Sri per Yogi??--Nemonoman 18:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Style question: number of "Sri"s per Yogi?