Talk:Terri Schiavo case/Archive 34

message: * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Terri_Schiavo&diff=22183639&oldid=22183540
*According to this diff, FuelWagon (who has contributed greatly to the article recently) has a great dispute here -and he has removed this text:
**Theresa Marie "Terri" Schiavo (December 3, 1963 – March 31, 2005) was a woman from St. Petersburg, Florida. On February 25, 1990, Schiavo experienced cardiac arrest and collapsed in her home, incurring massive brain damage and remaining in a coma for 10 weeks. The judicial and legislative battles over the removal of her feeding tube spawned considerable media coverage during the last few weeks of her life and sparked a fierce debate over euthanasia, bioethics, legal guardianship, federalism, and civil rights, both in the United States and worldwide. Schiavo's husband and legal guardian, Michael, took her to California for several months for an experimental thalmic stimulator implant in her brain. Within three years of her collapse, four neurologists had examined Schiavo and diagnosed her to be in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) with little chance of recovery.
*His edit comments were this: Stop inserting this POV assertion. you can't hide the term "euthanasia" in this laundry list, not give the courts, the guardians, or Michaels POV, and claim this is neutral in any way. I request further input, per the "text move" rule that Uncle Ed made recenty, and I'm moving the text in question here before reverting.--GordonWattsDotCom 16:30, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text move: FuleWagon's dispute on this edit 

message: I've been looking at the recent edits and reverts.  Let me tell editors who believe that the article is biased towards Michael's POV:  At the end of about two or three months of involvement in the editing process, I realized that the whole framework of discussion of this case is dictated by the vocabulary and characterizations chosen by the guardians ad litem and Judge Greer.
The case record often refers to "end of life" when Terri was not at risk of death.  It refers to "life support" to include assisted oral feeding and drinking.  There are many other such objectionable examples.  But the record, especially the orders of the court are the enduring record.  Online testimony, affidavits, and media interviews are beginning to disappear.  We are stuck with the GAL's and court's POV such as it is. patsw 02:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: End-of-life refers to living-will choices. A patient has the right to refuse medical care if they wish. Florida law allows this to include a PVS patient to refuse being hooked up to a feeding tube in a vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Whether Terri was about to die or not didn't matter. A patient has the right to refuse medical treatment. And if they don't have a living will, the court can get witnesses to figure out what they wanted. FuelWagon 05:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Infinite Editing Loop

message: I made some edits after the last churning. enjoy. FuelWagon 15:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: clean up after churn

message: Look people, "right to live" is POV. No one ever argued that Terri didn't have a "right to live". The question is whether SHE would have wanted to continue or withdraw the feeding tube in her condition. The court did not come out and pronounce Terri did not have a right to live. There is no way you can use the "right to live" as a category and stay within NPOV policy. FuelWagon 19:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that "right to life" is POV, but so is "right to die". When the two are placed side by side, they slightly neutralize each other, in my view. Actually, calling a feeding tube "life support" or "medical treatment" is also POV, and is contrary to the official teaching of the religion that Terri Schiavo herself practiced. Your recent version — "Advocating Terri Schiavo would have wanted to keep/withdraw feeding tub" — is more neutral, I think, but I find the sentences too long for elegance. I've tried "Advocating/Opposing removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding". Ann Heneghan (talk) 22:43, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: advocacy site categories

message: I found a few examples of something like (page 3 of 12 pages) near the beginning of the article. I thought it was a bit unencyclopedic to have them like that. I didn't want to remove them completely, as occasionally when editors are discussing problems on the talk page, they may want to know did Greer really say that, etc. However, for ordinary readers, I don't think it's necessary to give references like that.  References, where they're necessary, should follow some agreed style.  So I made them invisible, rather than deleting them so that no one could find them again. However, I found more in another section, and then in another, and another.  I think I shouldn't hide any more until I know what people want.  I don't want someone to have to put them all back tomorrow, and I don't particularly want to have to do it myself, either! Is it okay if I continue? It means that where people find that they want to give a full, professional-looking reference for some claim, they won't have to search in vain for the information. But I don't think they should be left in the article the way they are right now. Ann Heneghan (talk) 22:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I made the references visible so our readers could see them. I cited page number and sometimes paragraph, however I do not know whether this is appropriate reference format. Sorry, but I tried my best.--GordonWattsDotCom 10:05, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I stumbled upon Wikipedia:The perfect article yesterday. I don't know if it answers the question of how to make the "perfect" reference. haven't had time to look yet. FuelWagon 23:22, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't know about this, but the style of simply listing all the references and not bothering to point out exactly where you got which piece of data from has worked for me before (see my user page for a list of featured articles I have worked on). I'm not sure, however, as this article is definitely far more controversial than any Beatles song or even Mozilla Firefox or Coca-Cola. Johnleemk | Talk 10:10, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's probably been a little more controversial than Coca-Cola. ;) Pretty much this story is nothing but 15 years of a war of words between Michael and the Schindlers, so the words are all you can report on. about the only thing both sides agree on is the very beginning incident (Terri collapsed and went into a coma) and the very last (Terri died). Almost everything in between is completely different points of view about what happened. FuelWagon 20:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:Footnote3. Rich Farmbrough 09:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Making references invisible

message: Possible Solution per talk: <--~ by --GordonWattsDotCom 23:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Note:If this version is used, then the citation to the state law , would have to be changed to the same law as the law that the motion cited (there are SEVERAL laws on hospices), but that would only require changing the  at the bottom in "references," not the "ref" in the article's text. ALSO, let's heed AlamamaBoy's suggestion to learn how to use notes and references, OK?--GordonWattsDotCom 23:06, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "a facility which is was prohibited by state law from admitting nonterminal patients" Do you not see how this is "Begging the question"? What does this have to do with the price of tea in china unless they admitted a nonterminal patient? There is no reason this should be here unless it relates to something else. It doesn't. it does nothing but imply that the hospice admitted a nonterminal patient. I won't support it. I proposed something that included the Schneiders’ accusations against Michael, but I will NOT support ANY version of text that you come up with that implies the law was broken when the courts NEVER ruled that. FuelWagon 13:38, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wagon's Solution (I, Gordon, propose this)

message: Gordon, basically, you gave me no new information. What you provided was equivalent to what I already mentioned, namely that the Schindlers filed a motion to remove Michael as guardian and submitted as evidence that Michael put Terri in a hospice. The rest of it is stuff that can only go in the public opinion article. You are quick to quote court testimony of one witness, now quote what the court ruled. Did they find the transfer to be illegal? If not, you cannot state as fact that it was illegal, nor can you imply by use of weasel words that it was illegal. your use of the word typical is also a weasel word. this entire case is atypical. I don't want fifty links. I don't want fifty websites. I don't want anything except for what the court ruled on the case where you quoted the testimony. That's it. One URL, and a one sentence summary of the court ruling. FuelWagon 01:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I state neither legal NOR illegal in the article. It's news. I made my suggestion right here PS: I've made a new template that will protect our article while it basks in the light of the front page. my commentary.--GordonWattsDotCom 01:40, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gordon, then all you've got is a Schindler POV, which was asserted during the second guardianship challenge, which the court tossed. This is so irrelevant that it's a waste of space. At most, we could add something in the guardianship challenge that the Schindler's also listed Terri's transfer to a hospice as an abuse of funds (or whatever language was from bullet 31). immediately after that the same court POV can be reported to say the courts tossed the motion and Michael remained her guardian. Your sentence about the transfer is POV and is disputed by the court POV, and therefore cannot be stated as fact. Nor can it be implied with your weasel words about "typically only legally". We can change the paragraph to quote bullet 31 from the Schindlers and that's as good as you're going to get it. Nothing else you've added can be presented as undisputed fact. FuelWagon 02:30, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: less is more

message: please vote on this proposed addition to the article .
support FuelWagon 02:40, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: Gordon I've removed the vanity links to your website here. User pages for geocities and aol can be created by anyone and are considered non-notable. FuelWagon 04:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw that, but thx 4 mentioning. I will allow it this time, since there are other links that serve the same purpose, but please note that The Register was the ONLY news agency in Lakeland (my home town) covering one set of oral arg. hearings, and I will not brook removal of that link, if you can find it. That should be a fair compromise to show that I'm not a vanity link pusher, but, instead, a reporter for this article, as well as fair editor.--GordonWattsDotCom 04:20, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Let me point out that http://www.google.com/search?q=%22placement+in%22+hospice+schiavo&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N shows a routine search for links about placement in hospice -and Google.com says that The Register (one of "my" sites) was ranked fourteen in the world for sites with these terms: Hmm... Also, let me point out that actions on your part, whether retaliation or not, can be construed in that way, when you decide after the fact to start re-writing history to remove my involvement and news stories on which I contributed or were the editor. You aren't retaliating, now, are you, Wagon? My "vanity links" have high status, because they deserve it, according to this google search.--GordonWattsDotCom 22:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

text: "User pages for geocities and aol can be created by anyone and are considered non-notable." Show me that in Wiki-policy; Let me assure you that when I write a story -or one of my writers, and I publish it, I make abcde SURE the story is correct; Can you say that for the New York Times, especially after scandal-after-scandal -where nutty reporters just made stuff up, eh... eh? You should have said: "User pages for NY Times can be written by any nutty writer, and are not necessarily correct." Besides, I'm not asking that anyone create an article about me: I'M NOT NOTABLE! However, I am a writer and publisher, like any other: BIG DIFFERENCE.--GordonWattsDotCom 23:20, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vanity links

message: At this diff: here you reverted. I know that because you REintroduced the spelling errors that I corrected -even if you were crazy, I know you wouldn't do that.
You not only:
1-- reverted without labeling it as a revert, you also 
2-- reverted a NPOV sentence. in addition to that, you
3-- removed the "ref" tags without removing the "note" tags, and this messes up the link numbering, so that references after that point are not the same number as their relative notes.
you have shown a lack of NPOV here: It is true that a hospice is "a facility, which in [Terri's] state of Florida, is typically only legally allowed to admit terminally ill patients." If you don’t believe that, then go into any hospice here in Florida -any hospice -and try to find a cripple or handicapped, or brain-damaged person. You won't. All you'll find are people with terminally ill conditions, and at death's door: Therefore, it is true to say that Terri's admission was "not typical," but for your curiosity, I've provided links to show it is also illegal --VERY atypical, but I won't go that far.
for that reason, i'm reverting, and asking Ed for help, as he asked if I needed any.--GordonWattsDotCom 04:29, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Especially on a subject like this it might be wise to have a refute to the "brain-damaged woman" quote wherever its mentioned.... also "typically only legally" messes up the flow - somebody should decide whether it's typically OR legally (or if both expand on the point - as is it doesn't really make sense either - as it suggests that they admitted her illegally or something, ;) ) :). Anyway, fell free to disagree of course :). Ryan Norton T | @ | C 05:58, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  you reverted without labeling it "revert" - Wagon: