Talk:Historical materialism

message: I don't really have any serious objection to the content of this page -- sometimes it is a bit vague, but in general pretty good.  But I do find it a little strange for two reasons: first, it reproduces a lot of material in other related articles, espeically Marxism and Karl Marx.  If "historical materialism" is synonymous with "dialectical materialism" and "marxism" then I think there should be one page, and other pages should link to it.  If, on the other hand, "historical materialism" is more specific, the article needs to distinguish it from "dialectical materialism" and explain how it is one part but not the entirety of "marxism."  My second query follows from this -- assuming that "historical materialism" deserves its own article, I would expect a much lengthier explanation of Marx's debt to/differences from Hegel's historicism.  I am not qualified to contribute, as I have not read a lot of Hegel directly.  (But I assume that an author of this article is someone who has read a lot of Marx and Hegel).  I would also expect more discussion of Marx's historical works like the 18th Brumaire or Engels work on the peasant wars in Germany.  I would expect a discussion of the relationship between Marx's historicism (expresed in those books) and his ideas about progress or evolution, and his debt to Morgan, SR
****
I am pretty sure Marx wasn't a materialist. I believe David Harvey said this in his first lecture on the second part of Marx's Capital. The quote was something like : Production not only dominates over itself, also over the other moments(Which includes distribution). Since production of surplus value depends on the social relations of the classes, everything is determined by the social-relations.
<---I don't want to mess anything up so I would appreciate it if someone else took the time to do so.
----
I agree with many of the sentiments above. There appears to be an attempt to sum up marxism, Capital, Value Theory, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all under this one topic. Historical materialism is a methodological stance, not the actual workings-out of a given philosopher. There also appear to be controversial interpretations presented as fact: point 7 in the list is strictly speaking a theory due to Lenin, only indirectly due to Marx ... and the presentation of commodity fetishism (which is arguably out of place here) is one-sided. If no-one objects, I'll have a pop at rewriting this entry in a few weeks.
Adhib
----
Given that there were no objections, I have made the necessary (quite harsh) cuts, and added one quote which illustrates the meaning of this specific topic. 
Adhib 19:31, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: he was a materialist..it`s central to his philosophy that`s the pointLonepilgrim007
----
There are some very serious problems with this page. The determinist reading is very specific to Soviet Marxism, and hardly indicative of what Marx wrote. There is a vast amount of scholarship that addresses the philosophy of historical materialism in depth (e.g. Tony Smith, Ellen Wood, etc.), which needs to be brought in to explain this topic better, and bring it more in line with contemporary Marxist thought. --2600:8806:2500:E00:D530:39FA:7B8B:1B10 (talk) 05:36, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hm? 

message: My understanding of the Marxist approach to history is that class struggle is the motor that drives history and the result of this struggle is not predetermined. I will need to do more reading and thinking before contributing.....so little time!
John Ball16.40 30/6/04
My understanding of dialectical materialism is that it is 'matter in self-motion' - godless change, the continual resolution of contradictions of being - that drives all historical phonemena, from quanta to galaxies.  Within the current phase of human development the class struggle predominates human affairs.  Capitalism constituted a phase of human cooperative development - mass production - but it has, like all things that overstay their welcome, turned into its opposite and has become a hindrance to social production.   Contradictions arise naturally and are naturally resolved one way or another - life evolves.   The ruling class of capitalists shows no internal logic of preparing for its own demise and a move up to a higher social form - common ownership of the means of production - so it falls to the increasingly conscious proletariat to do it through a decisive social revolution.
Danny
----
All possibly valuable insight, Danny, but that would be better used at the entry for Dialectical materialism, not Historical materialism. Adhib 22:32, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Class struggle as the 'motor' of history 

message: I suggest to add a more detailed criticism of historical materialism, particularly that of Popper. 
In addition, the lengthy quotes from Marx and Lenin are not very helpful -- makes the article feel like it was written in the Soviet time where all you had to do was quote Marx and Lenin no matter what you wrote on...;) I suggest to tighten the text, and add Popperian criticism, snice it is probably the most substantial of the basic ideas of Marxism. What do you think? Dietwald 17:51, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Leninism is no more outdated than positivism or verificationism, frankly. There are many thinkers, more relevant in this day than Popper, who have criticized historical materialism. 64.85.243.248 (talk) 00:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that this is a fair assessment and have removed it. RnRa76 (talk) 02:19, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popper 

message: I have tried to sharpen the key sentence defining historical materialism at the start of this article. The original was a little to 'economic determinist' for my taste and would exclude much work which is, and has been, done in historical materialism.
--PeterBowing 11:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defining historical materialism 

message: User:Max rspct wrote in an edit summary
:rv pov edits by Ed poor.. - marx never outlined 'six stages' and who cares what cult leader Moon thinks.. Not encylopedic
I do not understand what you mean by "pov edits". Please show diffs or quotes and explain what you mean. Are you for example saying that I've merely added my own point of view at some point?
Furthermore, it is common knowledge that historical materialism posits six stages. I copied most of them from further down in the article. Please clarify whether you mean (1) that Marx didn't posit the six stages and some other person or organization did; or (2) that no major form of historical materialism includes these stages.
Either way, I request that you provide sources, because the progressive stages are so well known as to be common knowledge. And you shouldn't revert common knowledge unless you can point to a good source; perhaps you should review WP:NOR. --Uncle Ed 18:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I marked the page Marx's theory of history for deletion last month as historical materialism is the Marxist theory of history and it had very few citations & a lot of original research. It was decided that the page should be redirected to the page on historical materialism. That said, I did find the stages section helpful when I myself was introduced to Marxism, so I will do my best to reincorporate it as I work to make this article better over the next few months. RnRa76 (talk) 20:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unexplained revert 

message: It is a well known aspect of historical materialism that human will cannot stop the progression of human society from throught the various stages from primitive society on to feudalism, capitalism, socialism and finally "communism" (that is, stateless communism. Marxists regard this progress as inevitable.
Thinkers such as Bulgarin dismissed the notion of free will (or independent human will) as "indeterminism".  
Correct me if I'm wrong, though. I don't know everything about Marxism, only what I remember from my university studies long ago! :-) --Uncle Ed 18:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Progress and human will 

message: The intro describes historical materialism as a methodology or approach to history. 
*This makes it sounds like a school of thought which looks into history to discover something. 
*I thought rather that Marxism has a doctrine of history with which it interprets historical events.
*The difference is that a methodology starts with facts and seeks to discover trends and even principles. A doctrine starts with first principles and then strives to interpret facts. 
There are so many buzzwords, it's hard to figure out what Marx (or Marxists or "Marxism") is saying about history.
The longest section in the article is a "disclaimer" which vaguely implies that Marx was not really making any claims about history; rather, others came along and added a bunch of stuff that can't be pinned on Marx or Engels. This is contradicted later in a short, punchy section which lays out standard Marxist doctrine about history.
I propose we eliminate the disclaimer altogether, or spin it off to a Schools of Marxist thought article; eliminate the buzzwords and define clearly any needed Marxist technical terms; and recast the article as an explanation of the Marxist doctrine about history which follows from the core Marxist philosophy of Dialectical Materialism. --Uncle Ed 18:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know where you get the distinction you make above between "doctrine" and "methodology" but a basic point about historical materialism is that it both works from facts towards general principles AND from general principles towards facts. Working in only one of these ways would not be consistent with a dialectical approach. So historical materialism is a methodology available to historians - and much else besides. I am also confused about why you think that dialectical materialism is "core" to Marxism in a way that historical materialism is not. You may be right about contradictory statements in the article. I will have a look at them and see if the section you mention can be rewritten as a clarification and not a disclaimer. Itsmejudith 22:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Methodology and doctrine 

message: Removed the following:
"As was said, when a group was taken to a desolate place where the means of english social relations were absent, there was no way that they could feel compelled to work for a certain leader, because in theory they were free. Yet as has been examined with all colonies, over an extended period of time, the colony will provide itself with social relations. There will be leaders, and there will be followers. Those that give work, and those that do work, and in the end, the social classes will be established. It is in human nature to establish social differences; however, the main question is, can we re- create those social differences so that they do not insinuate a level of corruption between the classes. If we create the social difference, but do not encourage the great variation in lifestyle that comes with it then a more established form of equality will exist. All differences will become abstract rather than rely so much on the physical aspects. The social differences will still exist, and probably be just as strong as ever, however they will not be as visible to everyone and they might not cause such great discomfort among classes. By reducing the importance on materialism we will establish a more independant colony."
As far as I can see, this is a commentary on the Wakefield section, which IMHO is already too long. But perhaps the editor who placed it can explain why s/he regards it a useful addition to the article. Itsmejudith 14:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd stuff in main article page 

message: The whole article sounds like a defense or something from Marxists who are stung by critiques that Marx's analysis is overly simplistic.  Could we talk about what historial materialism is and what it does before we launch into paragraphs of how That Wasn't What Marx Really Meant? Slac speak up! 01:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone was going to write about Karl Popper's critique, which would be very useful. It might be quite tricky to distinguish critiques of historical materialism per se and critiques of Marxism but I'm sure with goodwill we can get there. The real problem with the article is that it isn't well enough sourced. There should be good introductory social science texts that we could draw on more. Itsmejudith 21:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is there anyone who actually ''admits'' to historical materialism? 

message: At the moment, the section is mostly an apologia for historical materialism. I removed the quote from cult leader Moon for obvious reasons.
Victor Chmara 08:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Criticisms" section is inadequate 

message: Someone had just recently come and chucked in a huge section on Marx's theory of history on the Classical Marxism page. Its probably not technically about historical materialism, but that is the main article link in the section. It seems fairly poorly written and some of it does not seem particularly academic in its wording. I don't know much about this specificly so I was hoping people could have a quick look and just let me know if it seems accurate. (If anybody has the time and could shorten it into a succint summary that would be even better!)
Thanks, JenLouise 15:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you about the poor writing. Also, it adds nothing to the explanation of specifically Classical Marxism compared with later developments. You'll see some mention in this article of how HM has been modified or developed by later writers. Quite honestly, I think the best thing for the moment is to leave the section out. Itsmejudith 21:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Materialism section on [[Classical Marxism]] page 

message: since it has been tagged for a very long time and there have been no objections, I propose to carry out the merge between this article and the article Marx's theory of history imminently, with this being the main article and the other left as a redirect. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: Found this:
That all of this not only have as their origin in the economic base but also ultimately correspond to the character and development of that economic base, i.e. the way people come together in order to produce and reproduce the material requirements of life.
It starts, from my reading, using "that" as a conjunction, placing everything that follows as a subjunctive clause, until the (heretofore unread) clarifying verb appears.
No critique of content; merely pointing out a grammatical issue. Unfortunately, I'm not well-versed enough on this topic to make sense out of the sentence.Stevenredd (talk) 15:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentence structure: 4th Paragraph under Key Ideas 

message: I've created this article on a closely related term mentioned in Erik Olin Wright's works. It should probably be linked from the body of this article; for now I'll add it a s see also. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 02:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Theory of historical trajectory]] 

message: Confused about the mention of him under 'Criticisms', since it is clear that he expresses support for HM. His statement also appears to be in direct contrast to Popper's statement in the same section. The difference in attitudes, as I see it, is that Popper finds HM lacking because he treats it as a contestable proposition (as he does with every proposition but his epistemological axioms), while Foster considers HM valid as an axiom in itself, due to which a scientific approach to history is somehow more justified than it otherwise would be. This juxtaposition should be made explicit for continuity. 183.90.103.161 (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of John Bellamy Foster 

message: I'm suggesting that this article link to the page I wrote on The Part Played by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man where that essay is mentioned in the section "Historical Materialism in Marxist thought". Thanks.
Nikoblock (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit request

message: To me it looks like supporting evidence for historical materialism, but coming from an unrelated field. Basically, Ed Stephan was able to show that the principle of least-effort (i.e. labour cost) is a strong predictor for the size of administrative regions all the way from counties, to states to whole nations.  Stephan and was able to mathematically derive the relationship from first principles (the variables are population density and speed of transport at the time the political division was created), then show that existing national entities follow the pattern quite closely. i.e. in the long run labour costs are the determining factor of the size of countries, rather than politicians and events.
http://www.uvm.edu/~pdodds/files/papers/others/1971/stephan1971a.pdf
http://www.edstephan.org/Book/chap1/1.html
The connection to historical materialism is not one Ed Stephan makes himself, so I thought I'd mention it in the talk page rather than in the main article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.77.106 (talk) 09:14, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ed Stephan's (Professor @ university of Oregon) research into county size is a good fit for historical materialism 

message: The Further reading section has:
* Joseph Stalin, Historical and Dialectical Materialism. (classic statement of Stalinist doctrine)
The title should have "Historical" and "Dialectical" swapped:
* Joseph Stalin, Dialectical and Historical Materialism. (classic statement of Stalinist doctrine)
50.53.48.224 (talk) 22:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Stickee (talk) 22:55, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2015 

message: Just letting the talk page know that I have removed a significant portion of hidden text within the article, as I believe it was causing some confusion with regards to formatting. Kujilia (talk) 13:38, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of hidden text 

message: I don't understand how the page on Marx's Theory of History (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marx%27s_theory_of_history&diff=865099188&oldid=865090907) was superfluous to this article. Why not have a simplified, easy to read demonstration of his predictions, which in this extremely dense page (for the layman) are simply aggregated into the "trajectory of historical development" section? The deletion of that page detracts from the goal which is to make lay people understand Marx's view on the natural development of human society. I have to link that cached version all the time to people that don't understand anything about socialism. Can we have it back?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.98.131.7 (talk) 00:28, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theory of history 

message: The article states "Prior to capitalism, nations were not the primary political form." - ok, so what were the political forms prior to capitalism? Feudalism, Mercantilism, etc ? The footnote links to an article where I can't find anything on "primary political form". Thy SvenAERTS (talk) 06:53, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prior to capitalism, nations were not the primary political form? 

message: There are four books I've scanned that would fit in the "Sources" section of the article if anyone wishes to add them with the required formatting: On Historical Materialism (a 700-page compilation of writings by Marx, Engels, and Lenin), Historical Materialism: Basic Problems (a Soviet book from 1968), Historical Materialism: An Outline of Marxist Theory of Society (a Soviet book from 1973), and What Is Historical Materialism? (a Soviet book from 1985.) There's also Plekhanov's The Development of the Monist View of History. --Ismail (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books to add