Talk:Kappa Kappa Psi

message: I removed the words "United States" from the opening sentence of this article and the Tau Beta Sigma article because the organizations are not dedicated to serving "United States college and university bands" but simply "college and university bands"; in fact they both have an "International District". Even though there are no member chapters in this district, its existence makes it clear that the organizations do not intend to limit their scope to the US. The links are set to the portions of those articles that deal with the US 'meaning' of "college" and "university" because they have very different meanings in some other English-speaking nations. Cmadler 12:31, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  serving college and university bands 

message: I created a category for Wikipedians who are members/alumni of Kappa Kappa Psi. To join, just add Category:Wikipedians in Kappa Kappa Psi to your User Page. Cmadler 01:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_in_Kappa_Kappa_Psi Category:Kappa Kappa Psi Wikipedians] 

message: KKΨ's board of trustees decided to withdraw from the NAA on July 22, claiming that 'the NAA’s “current structure does not meet the needs of our alumni” and that Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma “have different definitions of life members and their privileges”.' See here:Letter from NAA (PDF)
I really don't understand this move, and KKΨ hasn't explained themselves yet.  I'm an brother at USC, and I'll see if Dr. O'Shields or Ken Corbett knows anything. - DiegoTehMexican 01:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  KKΨ and TBΣ no longer share an alumni association 

message: I rated this article as B-class. I think with a few improvements it could be submitted as a Good Article. Some specific areas that could be improved are:
*Replace lists with prose
*Inline citations throughout (In progress)
*Sources other than the Kappa Kappa Psi website (local newspaper/magazine articles, Podium, etc.). To be a really strong article, we need secondary sources; anything published by the fraternity is considered a primary source.
*More illustrations (photographs, charts, etc).
If you notice other areas needing improvement, list them here so we can all work on them! Cmadler 13:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality: B Class 

message: Is he really a brother of KKPsi? I have heard this a lot, but I have never seen any verifiable proof of it. I tend to think this is more just a prank. Can anyone cite a recognized source? -- Johnny06man 00:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just thought I'd come back here and drop a note that Chuck Norris is now listed on "prominent members" list on the Kappa Kappa Psi website. Also, I have email confirmation from NHQ, and I suspect the website will be updated shortly, that Barry Sanders was made an honorary member in 1995 by Delta Upsilon (Eastern Michigan University). cmadler (talk) 15:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chuck Norris authenticity? 

message: All members of Kappa Kappa Psi National Honorary band fraternity are part owners in this non-profit organization.  Discussion welcome on this subject... Werecowmoo (talk) 20:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: usage of crest on personal pages by members of fraternity

message: This section was readded because it was "well sourced an informative." While it is informative, the information about founders in Lambda Chi Alpha already existed in the new article as a sidenote to the prominent member Tozier Brown, past Grand High Alpha of Lambda Chi. Though three of the ten KKPsi founders were indeed brothers of Alpha Kappa Psi, that hasn't been sourced and has been marked as citation needed since November 2010; even so, I don't know how important it is to mention that fact since none of them were charter members of the OAMC chapter, unlike the situation with LXA. Finally, I did re-add Shannon's affiliation with Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia as well as an excerpt from the joint statement, placing these in the membership section where Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia was mentioned.
* The fact that five founders were brothers of LXA is interesting, but trivial; it is made less so given that a Grand High Alpha of LXA was also a brother of Kappa Kappa Psi and that an article in the Cross and Crescent featured those five founders of Kappa Kappa Psi.
* Though it is a fact that three brothers were also members of Alpha Kappa Psi, it's trivial to people who want information about this fraternity. Since there is no correlation as there is with LXA, I feel as though that information belongs, and rightly exists, in the List of Alpha Kappa Psi members article as their position as founders of this fraternity makes them prominent members of that one, but there is nothing about their membership in Alpha Kappa Psi that is relevant to this fraternity.
* The joint statements between ΚΚΨ, ΤΒΣ, ΣΑΙ, and ΦΜΑ are important but are addressed in the membership section, which I feel is a more appropriate place for information that more directly deals with membership than the history of the fraternity.
I fully expected sections of the original article to be readded, so these are my justifications for the changes made. I think that the entire Organizational ties section can be done away with since I feel as though that information is better portrayed elsewhere in the article, but that's not my place alone to decide. LazySofa (talk) 06:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm content with the changes you made.  When I added the section back that information was not yet else-wear in the article. The information only needs to be there once. I will go ahead a nix the section. Nice update by the way. Grey Wanderer (talk) 14:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Organizational ties" 

message: The information about the 2008 hazing lawsuit is properly sourced and relevant to the article. Please do not delete without discussion here.  :)  Wikipelli Talk 00:01, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm concerned that they way the Theta Delta and Delta Iota hazing incidents puts undue weight on those specific incidents, which I am confident are not the only such hazing incidents. I suggest that we should re-work those two paragraphs plus the one about HazingPrevention.org to give a broader look at hazing and Kappa Kappa Psi. Otherwise, we run the risk of just having a list of various incidents (certainly, these are not the only hazing incidents of the last 11 1/2 years). cmadler (talk) 17:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason the Theta Delta and Delta Iota incidents are included is because they both had significant coverage, especially DI. I am, like you, aware that these are not the only chapters that have been closed since 1919 due to hazing, but they are the only ones that had media attention, and are both in the section they are due to historical timing. I do not like that those two incidents dominate the Early 21st Century section and have been thinking of ways to balance it with positive coverage of events like the 90th anniversary celebrations. Perhaps a section on the fraternity's hazing policy and advocacy against hazing in bands could be added to National programs? Sycamore (talk) 20:39, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: After going carefully through the sources, I have some additional concerns about the presentation of the DI incident. I think it should be made clear that, although the allegations did come to light following Champion's death, his death appears to have been completely unrelated (and in fact, this source specifically says so). The link I just gave also makes it apparent that such hazing is a deeply embedded part of FAMU band culture, spanning the entire band, not just Kappa Kappa Psi, and I think that's an important point to make here. cmadler (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  DI was placed on hold immediately after Champion's death but before the 2010 hazing allegations came to light in January. I will add some clarification that Champion was not connected to Psi in any way and that their charter revocation was due to earlier and entirely unrelated hazing. I hesitate to add too much about the hazing culture at FAMU to this article because as you pointed out, it envelops the entire FAMU band and not just the fraternity. I am working on a separate article on Champion's death which would be a more appropriate place to address the hazing issues. Sycamore (talk) 16:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  An interesting aspect that I noticed in the incident report is that the 2010 hazing incident was reported to the FAMU police on 11/21/11. Because it was off campus, FAMU police said they would refer it to Tallahassee police, but apparently failed to do so, delaying the investigation by two months (Tallahassee police only became aware of the allegations on 1/20/12, from media reports) and ultimately putting it just beyond the two-year statute of limitations. cmadler (talk) 13:24, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  2008 lawsuit