Talk:Iacchus

message: The article previously said Iacchus was thought by some not to be Dionysus, but a different figure, son of Persephone or Demeter. At least that's what I think it was trying to say. I've removed it because I don't know how to reword it in light of recent corrections I've made. I will however do a bit of research and see if I can re-introduce this info. Any help appreciated. Fuzzypeg 01:07, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Son of Persephone or Demeter 

message: In The Frogs by Aristophanes, the Dionysus character is described, possibly irreverently, as the Son of Winejar. He could be the god Dionysus, an incarnated avatar of this god, or a mortal with the same name. The play was designed for the festival of Dionysus.  (At least one English translation of The Frogs has Dionysus refer to himself as "Son of Juice", punning on both wine and Zeus.)
When Dionysus spies on the Mystae, they are chanting to "Iacchus". The stage directions are incomplete - they seem to sing to one who juggles torches before them.
So this play either indicates D is not I, or alternately this play presents I as another avatar of D, to complete the Festival of Dionysus.
The tie-breaker, during the Mystae's song, seems to be Xanthias salivating: "O holy noble daughter of Demeter, I just smelt roast pork - how sweet a smell that is."
Persephone is the daughter of Demeter, hence Xanthias is appealing to the divine mother of the character closest to the delicious dinner. This would be Iacchus, not Dionysus, who is hiding with him.
:Yes, I believe Iacchos was the title of the leader of this procession, juggling the torches. However the suggestion seems to be that he was so named in symbol of the god Iacchus/Dionysus (as an avatar). Several commentators have claimed that Iacchos was the common name of Dionysus in Athens. In The Frogs Dionysus the god would therefore be watching the proceedings of festivities in his honour and providing his own irreverent commentary (a rather humorous situation).
:However I can see this theory is not universally held, and I'm wondering what the arguments against it are. Many who write about the Eleusinian Mysteries don't mention Dionysus at all. I'm not enough of an expert yet in this field to navigate it on my own, so I'm looking for any pointers. Thanks, Fuzzypeg☻ 22:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the word were "iacchster" perhaps, or even "yachster", but "laughter"? I don't know. Best place to look is the Oxford English Dictionary and they may have a clear and convincing derivation already figured out. Fuzzypeg☻ 06:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

text: If you fish for deception, you'll get it. "Lach-", the German root for "laughter", IS indeed quite similar. And "gh" is well-known to be pronounced "cch" in older/Celtic dialects of English (e.g., "McLaughlin"). This would then imply the nature of the associated rites, and the association with Bacchus--laughter, of an unrestrained and disturbing nature, the child of intoxication or derangement. Not sure of the intent behind the previous response, but information regarding this subject has historically been subject to extreme censorship... Might still be.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.214.105.76 (talk) 02:22, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doubt about Dionysus 

message: Tere is a Greek word ἰαχή (iache) which means joyful cry. It can possibly be mentioned in the text.Jestmoon(talk) 13:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've been working on a section about the word, but i'm finding it a bit tricky. Paul August ☎ 18:05, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  iacche 

message: :()
Currently this reads:
:His name seems to appear in the Linear B ( Mycenean Greek) tablets as i-wa-ko or  i-wa-ka. It is propably related with Iakar, a name for Sirius.Kerényi 1996, p. 77.
Citing:
* Kerényi, Karl 1996, Dionysos: Archetypal Image of Indestructible Life, Princeton University Press. .
I don't have immediate access to this work (written in 1961, I think), but I believe such a connection between Iacchus and Mycenean Greek is now discounted by modern scholars. See for example, Alberto Bernabé, "Dionysos in the Mycenaean World" in Redefining Dionysos, edited by Alberto Bernabé, et al., De Gruyter, 2013, which says on p. 30:
:Furthermore, throughout the 1950’s and 1960’s some proposals were made to interpret various Mycenaean terms as references to the god, which today are completely overlooked, but which I include here for curiosity value:
:...
:b) In the case of i-wa-ka, i-wa-ko, i-wa-ka-o a possible link to Ἴακχος was suggested, but it is an anthroponym carried by, among other men, a bronze worker and a deer hunter.
Unless someone objects, I'm intending to delete the section.
Paul August ☎ 14:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but Kerényi died in 1973. Paul August ☎ 17:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

text: Kerényi even tries to prove the great age of the god by suggesting that I-wa-ko and I-wa-ka on linear-B tablest should be read as Iacchos and Iacchas respectively, though he concedes that the former is the name of a smith and that the latter denotes an owner of slaves.
I've now read a great many more sources, and have found no others who mention, let alone support, Kerényi's theory. I am going to rewrite this section to better represent (my understanding of) modern scholarly consensus.
Paul August ☎ 13:46, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

text: If it were to be mentioned, perhaps it with, along with the criticisms above, could be given in a note. But I'm not certain that is really needed here. Paul August ☎ 13:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: "Name" section