Talk:Dutch Boyd

message: A anonymous user made this edit which I reverted.  He has contacted me by email, asking which law school boyd attended.  I don't know, but since its printed in a magazine (Rolling Stone) and not challenged by any equally reputable source, I think it ought to stand unchallenged in the article.  Since I received this email from the anon, I thought I would bring up the issue here to see what others think.  --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 23:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After a bit of poking around I found this site that says he graduated from the University of Missouri law school (the site doesn't say which campus).  This makes sense since he received his BA from Central Missouri State University. --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 23:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See message 13 here. "University of Missouri Law School in 1999". 2005 01:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Rolling Stone really a credible source in reference to poker?  Given Boyd's history of dishonesty and inflated claims about himself I think more proof than Rolling Stone is needed... 68.45.109.136 (talk) 06:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Law School/University 

message: This comment is regarding this edit.  Everything about Boyd's history in this article is from him, shall we bracket every sentence with "Boyd claims..."?  E.g. "Boyd claims he was born in Columbia, Missouri".  I think unless that particular claim is disputed by someone with some real reason to dispute it, we should take it as fact.  --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 19:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should take nothing as fact that he says, or what anybody says. 2005 19:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, everything is set off by a citation which gives the basis for what we claim.  My phrase "treating it as fact" is shorthand for, state it in the declarative mood without a disclaimer like "X claims that..."   Are you suggesting that every sentence of every article begin with "X claims that..."?  For instance, "Partypoker.com claims that texas hold'em is a variant of poker."  --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 19:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, and I hope you see why.  We have an article on Texas hold'em, which we link to.  But here the article was saying Boyd has above average intelligence and an IQ of 150.  That is EXACTLY like sayinf "Party Poker has the fastest software" just because they say so.  Anything a person or entity says about THEMSELF should be disclaimered by "SoandSo claims..." or similar language.  It should never be stated as fact. 2005 20:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I think your standard is still too strict, but I think I see what your saying.  I don't think everything he says about himself warrants a disclaimer, but perhaps everything that puts him in an overly positive light.  --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 20:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I made that edit after reading the David Sklansky page and I noticed that the positive things Sklansky said about his own intelligence were cited as "Sklansky claims..."  Given their respective reputations for credibility it seemed unfair to hold Sklansky to a higher standard than Boyd! 68.38.127.139 01:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, or anything that reflects a significant POV.  "Boyd claims to be the smartest person in the world" is different than "Born in Peoria in 1980" or whatever.  It doesn't need to say he claims to be born in Peoria. 2005 21:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boyd claims... 

message: I have been thinking about the "Greg Raymer accused... " paragraph some more, and I think it ought to be removed.  I think we need to consider the veracity of Raymer's claims.  I don't know any reason why he would know more about PokerSpot than anyone else.  In fact, he didn't even have a pokerspot account.  Since the accusation comes from a Usenet post, there is no control over the statement, and even in the post he makes no assertion of authority (unlike the other usenet posts that we do cite).  I think without a more credible source this accusation ought to be removed.  Perhaps, someone could contact Raymer and see if he actually has some specific information.  --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 21:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd remove it.  But then I think there is a lot more detail here than there should that is based on Usenet posts or Boyd's own statements, neither of which are normally reliable sources.  Anyway, I don't see the paragraph as important... why they failed is really not our mission.  The fact that it failed is a relevant fact, the ins and outs, details and allegations are not vital to the article. 2005 22:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raymer take two 

message: Shouldn't it have it's own article, with just a small summary here? --kingboyk 13:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe so.  There are tons of defunct online poker sites, casinos, and sportsbook that are not notable enough to have their own page.  Pokerspot is only notable because Dutch Boyd became a well known poker player after Pokerspot went under.  Had Boyd disappeared, Pokerspot would not be notable enough to have its own page. 68.45.106.216 (talk) 00:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  PokerSpot 

message: User havoj has only made 4 edits total, all to this page.  Havoj is almost certainly Dutch Boyd, as his old blog was under the username havoj: http://havoj.livejournal.com/  68.81.180.171 (talk) 18:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty clear that the last edits to this page were also made by Boyd, as the last editor removed a bunch of content with negative info about Boyd and then edited the lawsuit page to say "Boyd has filed an appeal." 68.83.175.245 (talk) 09:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Enough has already been said on the controversy without adding +2800 characters of verbose negativity. If people want more information, they can check up on the citations. There is no need for such a large amount of text which does not adhere to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San (talk) 16:39, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The info you deleted is not "added +2800 characters of verbose negativity."  That was restored information that has been on the page since 2006 that was deleted by an IP address, likely Boyd, because the only 3 edits from that IP address are removing negative stuff about Boyd and then including that "Boyd has appealed the judgement.  That information was discussed above in 2006 under "Dutch Boyd and Pokerspot" and was deemed to be acceptable.  68.81.192.142 (talk) 02:58, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

text: Some/most of the material being added could be a valuable addition to the page, but it needs to be written in Wikipedia style with verifiable, reliable sources as citations.  The rules here don't allow Google groups to be used as a citation because it doesn't meet the level of "reliable", even if the information may be true.  If no reliable sources exist, then information can't be added, even if true. 2005 (talk) 17:34, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, it is not added information.  It is the same content that has been here since 2006 that was recently deleted by Boyd.  You didn't object to this information when it was discussed 6 years ago, and in fact you supported its inclusion.  Your exact words were "What it does is reference the most significant archived information on the subject, from Boyd and from others, that is available.  It would be hard to be more objective than that" and "Some facts maybe do assume we take statements from individuals mad at Boyd and from Boyd himself that coincide as facts.  I've edited the page to stick to three facts: 1) players lost thousands, 2) Boyd had an offer that he turned down, 3) people have not been paid.  There is no dispute of these facts by Boyd or those owed money."  I understand the problems with using Google Groups, but in this particular case, Boyd did not dispute a lot of the facts, and a lot of the quotes are from Boyd himself.  68.81.192.142 (talk) 03:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Rereading the section, literally everything that Boyd deleted that includes Google Groups citations are quotes from Boyd himself.  The stuff that Boyd denied, for example the comment about Burton Richie claiming that Boyd had an offer to buy the software with enough money left over to pay the Pokerspot players and several hundred thousand for himself, but Boyd turned it down because he didn't want to sign a standard noncompete ("You won't get me out of the industry this easily!") was removed because of the issues with Google Groups.  While I disagree with the removal of that information, I understand why.  There's no reason to remove quotes directly attributed to Boyd.  68.81.192.142 (talk) 14:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The rules are different now than years ago.  No content from Googlegroups is allowed in articles about living people.  I agree it is more or less true stuff said by Boyd, but the WP:BLP is very clear on Googlegroups now. 2005 (talk) 18:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're going to be technical, Boyd never posted to "Googlegroups."  Google Groups did not exist at the time.  Boyd's posts were to rec.gambling.poker, which is currently archived by Google Groups, but is not Google Groups itself.  Reading WP:BLP, I'm not sure how Boyd's own Usenet posts can't be included.  It says: "Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject," and these Usenet posts were written by Boyd. 68.81.192.142 (talk) 23:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument has been made previously that anyone could post as anyone on Usenet.  I agree this stuff was written by Boyd, but obviously at least one other person editing this page disagrees.  Also read WP:SELFPUB.  Itens 4 and 5 work against what you want to see happen.  You could try going here: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard.  Maybe you can get a consensus there that the rgp/googlegroups material is appropriate. 2005 (talk) 18:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: While "anyone can post as anyone" to Usenet, there is absolutely no reasonable doubt that the material quoted as Boyd was really written by Boyd.  Ten years later, Boyd has never denied it.  If he really didn't write that, why wouldn't he have said "I didn't write this" rather than delete the quotes?  There are literally thousands of poker players who can verify receiving numerous emails from Boyd saying "Your check is in the mail," "Don't worry, you WILL be paid" and the like.  And if you personally really believed this material wasn't written by Boyd, you would have said something during the 2006 discussion when you actually approved of its inclusion at the time.  That "another person editing disagrees" isn't relevant, and it's clear there are lots of agendas involved, i.e. the user who initially removed this info is clearly Boyd because the username is the same as his livejournal, and the IP address that removed it later is probably him as well (since the edit also included "Boyd is appealing the decision."  User:JaeDyWolf has some rather unusual contributions to Wikipedia, aside from incorrectly classifying my restoration of info Boyd deleted as "new information," he claimed it was "verbose negativity" and not a "neutral point of view" even though everything deleted are direct quotes from Boyd.  Looking at the previous edits of User:JaeDyWolf, I see he also called someone a "vandal" for criticizing BetUS, which is a known scam sportsbook with many, many complaints.  (They have stolen from me and numerous people I know.)  Boyd could easily round up 50 members of "his Crew" and his friends to all agree that the negative stuff about Pokerspot should be removed, but this is not a case of "majority rule."  68.81.192.142 (talk) 03:04, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

text: I would also strongly urge any poker players to think twice before defending Boyd by doing things like objecting to the inclusion of Pokerspot info in this article.  Boyd has such a terrible reputation that anyone who defends Boyd stands a risk of hurting their own standing in the poker community.  68.81.192.142 (talk) 03:06, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The point again isn't that the stuff isn't true.  The point is Wikipedia has rules, and in the case of bio articles, very strict ones because they don't want to get sued.  Like I said, I'd encourage you to make a case for inclusion of this material on the BLP noticeboard or some other administrator contact page, and get other opinions.  If you can get others to agree that the Usenet posts were clearly written by Boyd and do meet the BLP guideline, then the content should go back in.  The issue here is a technical one, an interpretation of Wiki policies.  Take the discussion to where the policy-focused admins can evaluate it. 2005 (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch Boyd editing his Wikipedia page 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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