Talk:Caratacus/Archive 1

message: I am deleting his son  Llyn (Linus)   I am unaware of any evidence for this --ClemMcGann 02:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Father of Pope Linus??

message: WikiRat: can you name the "scholars" who advocate this stuff about Caratacus's supposed children? If so, cite them. If not, don't pretend it has more legitimacy than it has. The only sources I can find that advocate this nonsense are British Israelite websites who think that Bran the Blessed was real and Geoffrey of Monmouth is reliable, and never cite their sources. I've been able to work out their line of reasoning connecting Caratacus with Linus, but I've also been able to work out it's based on (deliberately?) misquoted sources. The only way of connecting Linus to Caratacus is through his relationship with someone called Claudia, and every woman in the Roman Empire either in the Claudii family, freed by the Claudii family or given citizenship under Claudius or Nero was called Claudia. Trying to claim that Claudia is a Roman version of "Gladys", which is a modern name anyway, is obvious nonsense given how important the Claudii were. The Claudia and Pudens in 2 Timothy almost certainly aren't the Claudia and Pudens from Martial given the dates, and the only way to connect Claudia with Caracatus is to assume that Caratacus's family were the only Britons in Rome, which anyone who's read even a cursory amount about Roman and pre-Roman Britain knows is false. No evidence whatsoever has been put forward for Caratacus's supposed other children. --Nicknack009 22:05, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "A few scholars"

message: Nicknack009, clearly you are hostile to these edits (presumably you are comfortable with some "Latinized" view of Caratacus), but please stop trying to either associate this discussion with British Israelism or categorize this discussion as anything less than legitimate.  I've provided some "recognized" scholars ( The Bollandists, Orazio Marucchi, Giovanni Battista de Rossi, Archbishop Ussher. Archdeacon J. William, Conybeare, W.J & Dr. J.S. Howson, Baronius etc) who have engaged in this debate and done work in this area. 
Let me outline more clearly some of the issues here:
#We know Claudia Rufina existed and was British because Martial says so.
#We know that Claudia was married to Pudens (Martial), and I have provided additional sources (which you are free not to believe if you wish) that likely associates Claudia and Pudens with Saint Paul (note also - that the Catholic scholars Orazio Marucchi, Giovanni Battista de Rossi, and others support that idea according to CCEL).
#Claudia Rufina is more commonly associated with Caratacus' brother, Tiberius Claudius Cogidubnus aka "Togidubnus" and not with Caratacus himself (only by scholarly convention).
#Lets think for a minute here: Considering that Togidubnus stayed in Britian as a client king of Rome (after he sold his brother Caratacus out to the Romans), and Caratacus ended up going to Rome with his family, after defeat.  Who do you think Claudia Rufina is more likely the daughter of? Caratacus or Togidubnus?  Regardless, whether Claudia was Caratacus' neice or his daughter, doesn't invalidate any of the contributions that I have made in sorting out early Roman Christians.
#More over, we also know that Claudia and Pudens' Roman estate became one of the earliest churches in Rome (though its claim to being the first church is subject to debate).  We have a fairly detailed history of this estate forward as Santa Pudenziana (after Claudia's husband) and its association with early Christianity not really at dispute (or am I wrong?)
The 'connection' between Martial's Claudia (the Briton) and Tiberius Claudius Cogidubnus (or Togidubnus) was not made by me.  However it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that although there may have been many Claudia's in Rome, there weren't that many Togidubnus.  Or that the Togidubnus with whom Claudia was connected to is the same Togodumnus considered to have been Caratacus' brother.  This very article says as much and did so before I began contributing.
As far as I can tell, neither Claudia Rufina, Martial, or any of the other sources I've provide are connected with British Israelism or for that matter Geoffrey of Monmouth.  It appears from the brief exposure to British Israelite ideas that this debate has required of me, that they are more interested in early Israelite history than Saints and Rome and so I'm not exactly sure what the connection is and why they have picked up on the history of Caratacus and Claudia and taken an interest - the two themes don't seem related (to me).
Regardless, your problem with my contributions seem more to do with a problem you seem have with British Israelism than Claudia Rufina being related to Togidubnus or Caratacus. I therefore recommend you take your issue over to the British Israelite thread or provide something other than opinion here, that refutes:
#Claudia Rufina (as identified by Martial) was not related to Togidubnus;
#Togidubnus and Togodumnus are not one and the same person;
#Togodumnus was not Caratacus' brother
#ergo Claudia Rufina was NOT related to Caratacus ("the barbarian Christian")
I suspect to do so will require someone take just a bit more than even a cursory amount [of reading] about Roman or pre-Roman Britain.  To engage in this current debate I suspect that only a cursory amount [of reading] about Roman or pre-Roman Britain will not be sufficient.
:You're lucky then that I've done quite a bit more than a cursory amount of reading, and note the attempted insult. You may be surprised to learn that sometimes, just sometimes, you might meet someone who knows more about a given subject than you do.
:First off, Togidubnus/Cogidubnus and Togodumnus are probably not the same person. Togudumnus is known only from Dio Cassius's account of the Roman conquest of 43 AD. Dio clearly says that Togodumnus was Caratacus's brother, fought against the Roman invaders and died shortly after the battle on the Thames. Cogidubnus, on the other hand, is known from Tacitus's Agricola, which states that he was a puppet king who was loyal to Rome into "living memory" (written in the 90s AD), and from an inscription in Chichester. The sources don't support them being the same person.
:As for Claudia. Martial's Claudia may be related to Caratacus. She may be related to Cogidubnus. She may, for all we know, be related to neither of them and descended from a British captive bought as a slave by a member of the Claudii and later freed. She may be the Claudia from 2 Timothy, and she may be the mother or sister of Pope Linus. Alternatively they may all be different women with the same name. It's impossible to say. All I'm trying to do is distinguish what can be clearly demonstrated as fact from what is interesting conjecture.
:You say I am "hostile" to your edits, when in fact I am merely critical. I admit I find you frustrating. I believe you have swallowed uncritically a theory that is intriguing and attractive, and are not prepared to listen to opposing viewpoints. Your regular use of the phrase "scholarly convention" to dismiss opinions you don't like is arrogant and rude. I have spent a great deal of effort arguing based on Roman name transmission why Claudia is more likely to be related to Cogidubnus than to Caratacus. You tend to assume your conclusions, or at least assert them before you have argued them, which makes you argue your case incoherently.
:For what it's worth, I believe this material about Caratacus's supposed family and their Christian links is interesting and deserves to be here, and I have done my own digging for evidence to try and assess just how much water it holds (my conclusion on the evidence so far: just about plausible, but a very long way short of certain) in the interests of keeping it here. --Nicknack009 21:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  On Togidubnus/Cogidubnus and Togodumnus not being the same person, Togodumnus states that Togodumnus is thought to be likely the eldest son of Cymbeline, while this article says that Caratacus is thought to be the third son of the same king.  So Togodumnus and Togidubnus/Cogidubnus were at least brothers if Togidubnus/Cogidubnus was brother to Caratacus.  It seems likely that Togodumnus and Togidubnus/Cogidubnus are one and the same, though as Nicknack009 points out he couldn't have both died and continue to rule.  I think what might be at dispute is his outcome and not his identity.
24.43.181.44 22:40, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

text: The Welsh Triads  entirely separate from the Mabinogion. The authentic Triads from the "four ancient books"  are online and make no reference to "Gladys". Neither does Iolo Morgannwg's later collection of triads, which is in any case of doubtful authenticity. I'll work up a "legend" section based on these texts. --Nicknack009 03:12, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Further - if you are going to contribute to this article, consider registering, and be civil. WikiRat 15:31, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

text: My views on early Christianity are probably at least as far from the Catholic Encyclopedia's as yours are - if you're a believing Christian you may even find them offensive - but early Christianity really isn't what I'm interested in. My interest is in the ancient history of Britain and Ireland. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a Christian presence in Britain at a very early date - after all, the man who led the conquest was almost certainly married to a Christian, and non-mainstream religions were always popular in the Roman army - but I'm inclined to take medieval sources, which are often keen to play up their country's ancient Christian heritage, with a healthy pinch of salt. --Nicknack009 20:09, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "OK" 

message: LinuxDude, I don't know where you're getting your sources from, but I imagine they're the same as WikiRat's. One, Pomponia Graecina was not British. Two, as I've been through with WikiRat, just because you can find references to back up the identification of the Claudia and Pudens of Martial with the Claudia and Pudens of 2 Timothy, don't imagine you've validated the whole "Caratacus was a Christian" story. Three, have you read Williams, or Conybeare and Howson, or are you just lifting the cites from one of your British Israelite sources? I have consulted them both, and neither of them say what you think they do. Conybeare and Howson merely refer to the theory that the Claudiae and Pudenti can be identified, they do not advocate it, and Williams discusses Claudia's possible relationship to Cogidubnus, not Caratacus, based on an outdated interpretation of the Chichester inscription. Discussion of Claudia Rufina's possible ancestry belongs in her article, not here, so I've deleted most of it. --Nicknack009 17:44, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More credulous British Israelite nonsense