Talk:Kilgour–Matas report/Archive 1

message: === Update - Additional cites against FLG's organ allegation ===
:: UPDATE - The Ottawa Citizen has published a report refuting the Sujiatun story, a key element in Falun Gong's organ harvesting allegation(page 4). It also refuted the Kilgour report(page 3):
::http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949&p=3
::bobby fletcher 11:30 17 December 2007 (PST)
:: UPDATE 2 - The photo evidence in the Kilgour report Appendix 20 Case 1 involving a practioner name Wang Bin has been further reviewed by a second physician blogger, Dr. Ramana:
::http://www.rodneyolsen.net/2007/09/could-this-evil-really-be-happening.html (last comment)
::I asked Dr. Ramana to review the photo mentioned in (5) below as a second opinion, after reading his blog post where he had reviewed other evidence of torture presented by FLG and found them to be medical in nature, including one photo of breast cancer mis-represented as evidence of sexual torture:
::http://rambodoc.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/is-the-falun-gong-going-wrong/
::Bobby fletcher (talk) 00:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Veracity of Falun Gong's Allegation

message: :: UPDATE - The Ottawa Citizen has published a report refuting the Sujiatun story, a key element in Falun Gong's organ harvesting allegation(page 4). It also refuted the Kilgour report(page 3):
::http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949&p=3
::bobby fletcher 11:30 17 December 2007 (PST)
:: UPDATE 2 - The photo evidence in the Kilgour report Appendix 20 Case 1 involving a practioner name Wang Bin has been further reviewed by a second physician blogger, Dr. Ramana:
::http://www.rodneyolsen.net/2007/09/could-this-evil-really-be-happening.html (last comment)
::I asked Dr. Ramana to review the photo mentioned in (5) below as a second opinion, after reading his blog post where he had reviewed other evidence of torture presented by FLG and found them to be medical in nature, including one photo of breast cancer mis-represented as evidence of sexual torture:
::http://rambodoc.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/is-the-falun-gong-going-wrong/
::Bobby fletcher (talk) 00:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update - Additional cites against FLG's organ allegation 

message: Please see this article. The notes above are written by the person referred to in it. It's a wonder this guy uses the same name in his letters. If you haven't read it please read the Kilgour/Matas http://organharvestinvestigation.net report:
Copyright 2007 Western Standard
All Rights Reserved
Western Standard (Alberta)
April 9, 2007 Monday
Final Edition
SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 24
LENGTH: 699 words
HEADLINE: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China's sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign
BYLINE: Kevin Steel, Western Standard
BODY:
He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone--anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence that the Chinese government "harvests" and sells live organs from political prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong--the group which first brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light--and the Epoch Times newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China's Communist government. And he's not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a 40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah, Wash., and does business in China.
Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun Gong supporters--in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer--have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and deliberately wasting everyone's time.
It's a charge that upsets Liu, who dismisses it as "a bunch of kooky friends making unfounded accusations. It's just a bunch of blog BS." As for why he devotes so much energy to attacking the Falun Gong and the organ harvesting allegations, he says, "My position is that I simply don't agree with their brand of politics, because I observed their politics turning from anti-Communist party, to anti-China, . . . and recently it's morphed into this anti-Chinese hysteria and that's going to be hurting people," he says. As an Asian-American, he says he decided to speak up.
He doesn't really explain, when asked, why he started a blog last year called "The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre" under the name of Bobby Fletcher (one of his online aliases, which he also uses to comment on the Western Standard's online blog). On that blog, he pushes the minimal 250 casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at at least ten times that).
Liu's actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese government in the past. Typically, these include the deliberate spreading of false or misleading facts to sow confusion or doubt among the conflicting accounts. The classic example is the Tiananmen Square massacre; the Chinese government has maintained that no one died in the square itself, that there was only pushing and shoving on the streets around the square, resulting in a few military casualties. Overseas, the CCP relies on its United Front Work department, part of the Chinese intelligence service, to propagate its message. During the Cold War, the Soviets employed many overseas flunkies through their Disinformation Department.
Former Canadian MP David Kilgour, who co-authored a report on China's macabre organ harvesting industry, has received many propaganda e-mails from Liu. For instance, Liu has written repeatedly that a U.S. congressional committee looked into the organ harvesting allegations and found nothing. "[David] Matas and I gave evidence to that subcommittee and got support from both the Republican chairman and the Democratic vice-chair," says Kilgour. "I just came to the conclusion he was trying to waste my time, and I have other things to do."
Winnipeg-based human rights lawyer, and Kilgour's co-author, David Matas, really doesn't know what to make of Liu. "I don't know who he is, but what he does is spend a lot of time replicating nonsense to defend the Chinese government," Matas says.
The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians--and their staff--prior to the meetings. "The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can't imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people," Matas says. "We're not super-secretive, but you can't find information on the Internet or in any public place about who we're meeting with, where and when." He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu, all of which he's ignored. Maybe Matas is onto something with that approach.
--Asdfg12345 08:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone does things for a reason. Some do it for money, some to keep the families safe, some choose a higher motivations. But one thing is for sure, you can't crack open someone's head and look inside for their motivations- you have to look elsewhere for clues. Ohconfucius 00:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China's sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign

message: Hi, I am Charles Liu, the subject of the article. I am an Asian-American comunity activist. I blog/wiki under the handle "bobby fletcher" (my favorit charcter in "Crank Yankers").
I will publically refute the insinuations made (yes, there is no factual evidence) in the article against my character and my research, specifically the insinuation I am associated with the Chinese government.
1) David Matas claims:
"The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government."
"I can't imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people"
"Matas says. "We're not super-secretive, but you can't find information on the Internet:
These statements are FALSE - a) By the fact Kilgour/Matas' appearances are heavily promoted by FLG meida outlets Epoch Times, Minghui, and disciple bloggers. b)The fact they are readily available to me, an Asian-American community activist, via Google. 
(Everyone who "Google" from news.google.com, search.blogger.com with keywords "Kilgour Matas" will find the same information as I have.)
Thus prove the "only Chinese government" insinuation David Matas made to be unreliable and not factual.
2) Kevin Steel, author of the article, claims:
"under the name of Bobby Fletcher"
"Liu's actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese government"
"deliberate spreading of false or misleading facts"
These Statements are FALSE - a) I use lower case 'b' and/or 'f' in my blog handle. b) Use of blog handle and/or nickname is a common convention, millions of bloggers unaffilated with the Chinese government do so. c) All of the citations are obtained from public record by "Googling" (US government, Chinese dissident based in the West, Western media, non-Chinese physician bloggers) are unaffaliated with the Chinese government. d) these facts are gathered by me, an Asian-American community activist also unaffaliated with the Chinese government. e) These facts have been vetted and published by mainstream media.
Therefore they can not be seen as proof of my affaliation with the Chinese government, or contradict any of my research without providing specific factual evidence.
3) Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer claims:
"Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer--have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government"
Above Statement is FALSE - a) I deny such unfounded allegation against me. b) Jana Shearer has not once produced any proof whatsoever after being challanged by me. c) Jana Shearer has a track record of making similiar accusation against other bloggers who disagree with her:
http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com/2007/04/epoch-times-reporters-gone-wild.html 
d) Other Epoch Times reporters named in the above blog entry have made similar personal attacks, demonstrating Epoch Times's MO in intimidating and silencing critics with unfounded "spy" allegation.
Therefore FLG's unfounded accusation, made by its media staff members and/or affaliates, is easily proven false.
Based on the above facts, I strongly dispute the article written agaisnt my character and research.
Bobby fletcher (talk) 23:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Sowing Confusion;" Not Factual; Insinuation And Personal Attack Disputed 

message: *Everyone knew that Falun Gong was the dog of Li Hongzhi,and he was the dog of some pro Taiwan Independence groups.Just took a very simple acts to see how Falun Gong,a banned religeous group set up a large propaganda networks with Epoch Times paper and New Tang Dynasty Television?The Epoch Times papers are free for acquiring with little or no ads.I cann't imagine such a group could make the ends meets when they are not supported by some groups.There must be someone who trust the Falun Gong,but for most sane people,they won't trust a religion which persuade the illed people not to go for doctor rather than praying--Ksyrie 06:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: misc

message: : Is there a TAG which we can use for a call to improve this article? --HappyInGeneral 09:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Call for improving the article 

message: I strongly feel that the transcripts are completely unencyclopaedic, and should be deleted. As a tertiary source, wikipedia is not the place to pick up such details from primary sources which nobody can verify (per Harry Wu). What is more, could this be an enactment? - this "evidence" is easily fabricated, and completely lacks credibility. Wikipedia is not the forum to prove or disprove allegations of organ harvesting. Ohconfucius 04:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing transcripts

message: I have moved the entire block of text concerning organ harvesting from the 'Persecution' article, replacing it with the lead section from this article, and have begun to rearrange the various sections and paragraphs here in order to macro-merge the article. Detailed copyediting would still be required. I thkni that the media coverage section can probably be merged with the international response section, also the article is a bit thin on K&M findings. Ohconfucius 03:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: merge from 'Persecution'

message: :If you do not respond in one week, I will move this out of the archive, so the discussion/dispute can continue in a more obvious place.
:Bobby fletcher (talk) 20:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No one has responded. Bobby fletcher (talk) 01:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subject unarchived for continued discussion 

message: Here's the reply I received from Amnesty International Seattle chapter, after enquiring why they have rejected Falun Gong's invitation to protest. Here's the relevant quote:
::"AI never supported those allegations (as far as I know).  The allegations were researched and found to be unsupported.  
::The idea of participating in the FG event was tabled largely because AI's International Secretariat has asked its members not to participate in the Human Rights Torch Relay.  As far as I know the basis for that decision is that (1) the event will primarily be about the FG and not human rights, and (2) AI has no position on the FG per se and cannot verify its claims vis-a-vis Chinese organ harvesting. 
::As I said in an earlier email, we'd prefer to have nothing to do with the FG."
Anyone wish to receive a copy of the email can leave an open request with something like "name (at) email (dot) com".
Bobby fletcher (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amnesty International's Refutation of FLG Organ Allegation