Talk:Shamil Basayev

message: Hey, take a look, this page was cited by CNN!
:Yeah, and that's a worry considering the article has no references section. For all we know the authors could be making stuff up (though I doubt it). Please provide us with a reference section! It looks bad when the news media publishes information from our website without a reference to where you guys gathered the information from. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the article is correct - the outhouse speech was made when Putin was still prime minister, i.e. between August and December 1999. Incidentally, "blasting in the outhouses" ( literally, "soaking in the outhouses" ) is a preexisting Russian idiom - some meaning is lost in translation. --Itinerant1 22:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Media citation

message: BBC on power outage claims
 Pravda on power outage claims
Marked as currentevents - Does the page need to be backlinked to from the current events page?  Mrzaius 19:08, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Current event

message: "When Communist hardliners attempted to stage a coup in August 1991, Basayev allegedly joined supporters of Russian President Boris Yeltsin... A few months later in August 1991, the Chechen nationalist leader Dzhokhar Dudayev unilaterally..."
August 1991 can't be a months later than August 1991. Kaldari 06:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed second "August" to October. MaxSem 05:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictory 

message: The introduction should be a basic outline of what is most pertinent about Shamil Basayev.  It completely omitted the fact that he is wanted for terrorist actions that have caused mass casualties to civilians, which almost anyone reading up on Shamil Basayev would want to know about.  Instead it calls him a Chechen national hero, which I left up because I don't know how popular he is in Chechnya.  I changed the intro to include the fact that Russians and most Western countries view Basayev as a terrorist due to his numerous bloodbaths. --Bbcrackmonkey 5:16, 17 June 2006
"Mass casualties" - he didn't gas to death these civilians in Moscow or burned alive the kids in Beslan, the Chekist "federals" of the former KGB did. For example, the terrorists killed only 2 non-hostage unarmed persons in Moscow (both came from the outside, through the "security cordon" - odd, isn't it?), and also wounded 2 hostages in an accidental shooting (after which they were evacuated). Then, the gas attack by the FSB killed 130 or more and disabled hundreds, and they also executed all surviving terrorists including unarmed women with a point-blank shots to the head (talking about "ruthlessness" and "bloodbath").
He didn't gas those civilians but he is responsible for their deaths through his actions.  He sent a large squad of terrorists armed with bombs, machine-guns, etc. into the theatre and gave the Russians no choice but to either acquiesce to his politically unfeasible demands or have the people in the theatre killed like the children in Beslan were.  The Russians basically had no choice but to storm the theatre and their controversial use of sleeping gas is covered in the article of the Moscow theatre siege.  Despite the fact that the Russians caused the casualties, they were not trying to kill their own civilians but were instead trying to rescue the patrons of the theatre.  The execution of the terrorists is also covered in the article, but I would like to know how you would deal with dozens of sleeping terrorists who had several kilograms of explosives wrapped around their bodies, who could concievably wake up and detonate themselves during the evacuation of the unconscious civilians.  This is not an article about Russian atrocities in Chechnya or a staging ground for pro-Chechen views, it is an article about Shamil Basayev and he is mostly famous for the Moscow theatre siege and Beslan school siege. I will remove the words "ruthlessness" and "bloodbath" from the introduction.  --bbcrackmonkey
:The "suicide" explosives were all fake. The real was the big bomb, but it was not live (lacked a detonator). Is it not in the article? One terrorist was actually executed outside of theatre, because he was evacuated by mistake (it was filmed). Also one hostage was executed because he was mistaken with a terrorist (in fact he was a Russian Army cadet). His father found him only after days of search, on the heap of terrorists' bodies in morgue (the bodies were then all destroyed, as were their families' houses and in at least one instance a family killed).
It was not the Russians' fault they didn't know that the suicide bombers had fake explosives on them.  I have not heard this before, and I would like a source for this accusation.  If you feel strongly enough about it, perhaps you should make some edits to the page on the Moscow theatre siege if you can provide credible sources for your content.  I read that instead of destroying the bodies, they were buried wrapped in pigskin, but this was never verified.
* I think the best way to maintain a NPOV would be to refrain from declaring what the opinions of people or groups of people are, even in the general, without scientific evidence (or at the very least, reputable polls) to back it up. It's best to stick to discussing the objective facts, which is is to say, who he is and what he has done. That alone will probably be enough fodder for people to argue over in this article. No need to discuss what people think of him and, given that this article discusses current events (more or less), it's probably not an appropriate point for an encyclopedia entry. --Rumplefurskin 17:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro Seemed to be pro-Chechen POV 

message: Not really, probably, but it turns out that Shamil Basayev's last deed as Vice-President of Ichkeria was to ... congratulate the Iraqi Mujahideen for killing the Russian diplomats.  Now that is something Doku Umarov would not have liked - after all the efforts he put in to convince the West there was no collusion between Chechen "freedom fighters" and Iraqi "terrorists".
Since User:Karkachev's main contributions seem to be to put axisglobal links everywhere (I am not the first one to notice: ), I think I should replace that one with the Kavkaz Center one. I hope no one will delete it as a terrorist, or Al Qaeda site.
--Pan Gerwazy 15:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous last words 

message: The intro is low quality and appears to be written by someone with a bias towards him. "vice-president of the internationally unrecognized separatist government-in-exile of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, Islamist guerrilla leader."
if they are a government in exile, how are they separatists? Chechenya would have had to be independent and conquered by the Russians. Think the Free French in WWII. 67.10.243.230 22:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was pretty much so. They had no Russian Federation troops, police, government offices, border guards - except on border with Russia and from the Russian side (and vice versa, there were no Chechnya deputies to Duma etc). They were even recognised, even if only by Yeltsin's Russia and OSCE. The only Russian flags they had were on the posters from the 1997 peace treaty (still visible on a photo from the 1999 invasion). --HanzoHattori 09:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Government in exile 

message: Anyone catch today's NYT article about Elina Ersenoyeva? It might be worth adding. Here's the link for anyone who has the free registration already done[I know it's not something we might cite for the article, but one might look it up elsewhere as well]. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/world/europe/27chechnya.html?th&emc=th --r. 23:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm. She did write a letter to Chechen Society and some NGOs that she and her family were in trouble because she had married a boyevik who had died only a month before. And after Basayev's death they were visited by the FSB, who questioned her, her mother and her brother. "Только тогда Маргарита поняла, за кем была замужем ее дочь." ([]) So, her mother understood whom she had married, not AFTER she disappeared, but before.--Pan Gerwazy 21:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Secret wife?

message: These categories are simply POV. Basayev didn't go from village to village just killing people. Yes he's resonsible for numerous attrocities, but based on this logic shouldn't we also add the same categories to George W. Bush, for all the civilians that have been killed in Iraq? —Khoikhoi 04:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: No doubt the Wahhabis around here will persist in revising this article to claim that this subhuman thug was a great hero of Islam, but can we at least omit all reference to the worthless website called Kavkaz Center? (Speaking of which, there was a big roundup in Turkey a couple of days ago, and with a little luck, Kavkaz is now history.)LDH 11:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kavkaz

message: "The last attack for which Basayev claimed responsibility was the 9 December explosion near the National Hotel in Moscow and the 5 December blast on the commuter train in Yessentuki. Basayev then said both attacks were carried out by the Islamic group Riyadus-Saliheyn operating under his command. 
Following the 6 February metro explosion, however, Basayev expressed concern about the tragic events in Moscow and even said he was ready to dispatch special units for protecting law and order in the capital."  --HanzoHattori 11:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2003-2004 

message: After the 1st war? --HanzoHattori 19:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Didn't he wrote a book on warfare? 

message: There is russ script for this man but no Chechen script and the first few lines of the article look like POV-based to me.I dont see the need for adding that he killed russian civilians.That simple accusation doesnt belong in a bioography and goes against NPOV.One could make the same argument of the russian government attacking chechens.-Vmrgrsergr 02:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What you call "russ script", is in fact Cyrillic script, it is not language-specific. But what do you mean by Chechen script? Arabic ? - because as far as I see we are also giving his name in Latin script. Have a look at Chechen language. That Basayev killed Russian civilians is not an accusation - he admitted and even claimed so. If you think his claims were exaggerated, source that and add it to the article - but be careful not to go beyond "Due Weight". You will have a lot of problems by the way, because no one denies these facts - in fact pro-Chechen commentators in the West are now claiming that Basayev worked for the KGB all along (and that is already reflected in the article). As for the Russian government attacking Chechens - that is mentioned in several articles linked to from here. Chechnya for instance. --Pan Gerwazy 02:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: "conquest and racial subjugation had brought death and destruction to tens of millions of people, including the genocide of some six million Jews in what is now known as the Holocaust." is in the intro of Adolf Hitler, so? Note that if you delete the info on attacking civilians, the part about his being named Hero of Ichkeria will also have to be deleted under WP:Undue Weight. As for the Arabic script, I hope you realize that some people who feel positive towards Basayev may think that Arabic script is a provocation and I state now that I am not in any way responsible for it, though I will leave it there (surprise, surprise). Since I hope you will also add it to the introes of other Chechen leaders. Under WP:Due Weight, you will now have to add it to the introes of all the Arabs who came to Chechnya, by the way. --Pan Gerwazy 10:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of Chechen script and removal of POV needed 

message: Why is this creature presented as some sort of hero? Someone would think that this article was written by his personal fan club. Miskin 15:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, yeah. And this comment was written by his personal hate club, right? --HanzoHattori 20:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, actually, there may be too much BLP concern over this guy here, but I do think "Affiliation Al Qaeda" is wrong. "Political Affiliation All Qaeda" may be OK, but without the word "political", the word "affiliation" gets a completely different meaning: that Basayev's group was part of Bin Laden's network. Not proven, I think. A link has been found between the Chechen independists and the Benevolence International Foundation, but to conclude that therefore, Basayev's group, as by far the most active one, must have been financed by and therefore also be "affiliated" to the real power behind BIF, is OR - if only because money was also passed on to groups outside Bin Laden's network (see Bosnya eg). No, this must be rephrased. I do not like "Affiliation Îchkerian Republic" either, beacause Basayev worked far too independent of Maskhadov. What about "Affiliation Movement for islamic rule over the Caucasus" - or can we find something shorter? Or we could add "political", if the infobox rules allow that.--Pan Gerwazy 14:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: I'm not sure. --HanzoHattori 20:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1917 Caucasian Emirate = 4th [[Caucasian Imamate]]? 

message: What's the point of having his name written in Arabic? That's like having the Saudi King's name written in Ukrainian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.212.72.104 (talk) 01:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See above: "addition of chechen script and removal of POV needed". Actually, since then the part saying "self-described terrorist" was deleted... --Paul Pieniezny 14:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabic name 

message: Also, you probably know he spent the last years co-ordinating the Caucasian non-Chechen fighters (in addition to organizing hostage takings and suicide bombings 2002-2004). http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2373823 has an interesting thing about this, making him an adherent Chechen nationalist to the end:
In his long declaration, Astemirov explained why the Emirate was declared now. The KBR rebel leader revealed some details in his audio message about how the rebels prepared the establishment of the Emirate. The most interesting thing in what Astemirov had to say concerned his negotiations with the Chechen warlord Shamil Basaev in Nalchik, the capital of Kabardino-Balkaria, in 2005. According to Astemirov, Basaev met him and Ilyas Gorchkhanov, then the leader of the Ingush militants. Astemirov and Gorchkhanov told Basaev that they wanted to create the Caucasian Front in the North-West Caucasus and to initiate a large-scale militant struggle against Russian rule in the region. At the same time, Basaev said that the Ingush and KBR rebels should give an oath of loyalty to Abdul-Khalim Sadulaev, then the leader of the Chechen separatists. Astemirov said that the negotiations were not easy, because Basaev demanded from Gorchkhanov and Astemirov that they cease any hostilities against the authorities if the Kremlin agreed to have peace talks with Sadulaev. Astemirov and Gorchkhanov insisted that they would agree to this only if Basaev promised them that the future independent Chechen state would be totally Islamic, without any of the attributes of an infidel governing structure, like a presidency or parliament, and would not have the word "republic" in its name. Basaev rejected these demands and said that if Astemirov and Gorchkhanov did not agree to give an oath of loyalty to Abdul-Khalim Sadulaev as the president of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria they should not expect any assistance from Basaev and other Chechen rebel commanders. Astemirov and Geriskhanov ultimately agreed to Basaev's demands.
By the way I think Caucasian Emirate needs an article too. --HanzoHattori (talk) 21:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Astemirov's declaration 

message: http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/khozhevinterview.pdf mentions "Shamil Basayev's men" in the battle of November 26. Should be added? --HanzoHattori (talk) 02:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grozny 1994 

message: Here is a quote from Asia Times that says he headed two groups that are not mentionned in this article, but also mentionned elsewhere on Wikipedia, so that is probably worth adding.
"two Chechen groups - the Supreme Military Majlis-ul Shura of the United Mujahideen Forces of the Caucasus, headed by Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, and the Congress of the Peoples of Ichkeria and Dagestan, headed by Basayev and another Chechen separatist leader, Movladi Udugov."
Nicolas1981 (talk) 12:32, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supreme Military Majlis-ul Shura of the United Mujahideen Forces of the Caucasus 

message: Kommersant July 18 2006: "Basaev's first wife, Abkhazian Indira Jenia, is known to be alive. Chief of the criminal investigation department of the Abkhazian Interior Ministry Murman Gegia told Kommersant that she had been living in her native village of Duripsh, near Gudauta, but left with two children, a boy and a girl, for either Azerbaijan or Turkey. There are reports that they are now living in The Netherlands." 
http://www.kommersant.com/p690813/r_1/Investigators_Slip_on_the_Blood/
This LA Times article mentions a son. That's the child that was killed along with his Chechen wife in the bombing of their house in the 90's, right? 
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-01-22/news/mn-23083_1_caucasus-mountains?pg=1
Also, I'm getting a 404 from the reference to the Moscow Times article talking about experts positively identifying his remains. Did they positively identify him through DNA analysis? 
DashaZPK (talk) 09:33, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children? 

message: Quotation: Chechens were usually kept away from the combat units - Eh ? Maskhadov was a career officer with the artillery, and Dudayev served as career officer with the strategic bomber force, to mention the most prominent Chechens. Is there any justification for this statement about chechens serving with the Soviet Army ? --129.187.244.28 (talk) 11:57, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early life / military service 

message: Some Avar tribes forced to migrate to Chechenia in 1945 by Russia. His tribes' name is Botlikh. About 5000 people are Botlikh Avars in the world. Those Chechens say lie , he was not Chechen , He was Avar.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.99.46.170 (talk) 07:29, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basayew is Avar - not Chechen 

message: *"Shamil Basayev." The Economist. 13 July 2006.
WhisperToMe (talk) 04:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Source

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have removed any mention of the executions of prisoners in a stadium by Shamil Basayev, the 
Report of a UNPO mission to Abkhazia, Georgia, and the Northern Caucasusm which states "The Mission was particularly interested in investigating allegations of atrocities by Abkhazian troops in Gagra at the time of the recapture of that city from Georgian forces. The delegation was able to find absolutely no evidence to support two major allegations: One was the story that hundreds of Georgians had been driven into a stadium and killed; the other was that Abkhazian soldiers had gone to the hospital and killed doctors and patients there. " http://www.abkhazworld.com/Pdf/AbkGeo1992Report.pdf  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.232.68 (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  stadium beheadings 

message: Hello , why exactly are you proposing these additions, don't you think they clutter the lede? why isn't the current lede satisfactory? Sextus Caedicius (talk) 23:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The opening must explain why they are notable. In this case, it includes terrorism. Mellk (talk) 01:30, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede discussion