Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 6

message: I was wondering if it would be appropriate to include Fields of the Nephilim in the origins alongside Valor era Christian Death. They used a metal influence. You can refer to the wikipedia article about their sound and influences, as well as sites such as allmusic. --Fred138 01:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fields of the Nephilim

message: As many other genres i feel list of bands belongs to another article.
I copied the contents from the main article to List of goth metal bands.
: As mentioned before, its a list of Gothic Metal AND Gothic-Doom bands. The genre is also called GOTHIC Metal, not GOTH Metal. Rename the article appropriatly, and then the article list shall be included. At current, it undermines almost all of the article. Leyasu 14:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just put  in the main Gothic metal article under the header for the list.  That will copy and paste the contents of List of gothic metal and gothic-doom metal bands into the article.  (Though to edit the list, you'd have to go to List of gothic metal and gothic-doom metal bands.  You can't edit the list directly from Gothic metal if you do it this way.) --Idont Havaname 04:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

text: That's not a good way to do it either, though.  It's generally not good to pick a few items out of a list, and if you do, you might run into POV problems (or at best, you'll just be mentioning bands that the rest of the article discussed.)  If the list is short, it can stay in the article.  But this one seems to be long enough to justify its own article, so it would be best to keep it on a separate page. --Idont Havaname 05:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of bands should be in another article. 

message: sorry if i piss anyone off by editing this, but i want these bands added to the "gothic metal bands" list. i'm also sorry if i've repeated any that are currently there, i'm just reading these of my ipod because its basically a massive collection of gothic bands, i've never edited on here before.
After Forever,
Epica,
The Gathering,
Graveworm,
HIM,
Lacuna Coil,
Leaves' Eyes,
Liv Kristine,
Midnattsol,
Moonspell,
Nightwish,
Sirenia,
Season's End,
Switchblade Symphony,
The Sins Of Thy Beloved,
The 69 Eyes,
Theatre Of Tragedy,
Tristania,
Within Temptation,
Xandria,
these are all gothic metal bands
: Non of the above bands are Gothic Metal except Tristania. 
:*After Forever was a Symphonic Metal band before adding Progressive Metal in their latest albums.
:*Epica is a  Symphonic Metal band.
:*The Gathering is already listed.
:*Graveworm has no connection to Gothic Metal, being part of the Symphonic Black Metal scene.
:*HIM is an Alternative Rock band, with no connection to Gothic Metal.
:*Lacuna Coil is already listed.
:*Leaves' Eyes is already listed.
:*Liv Kristine is a vocalist, not a band.
:*Midnattsol should be added.
:*Moonspell is a Gothic-Doom band, and is already listed.
:*Nightwish is a Symphonic Power Metal band, nothing to do with Gothic Metal.
:*Sirenia is already listed.
:*Seasons End are not Gothic Metal, and as such are not listed.
:*Switchblade Symphony have no connection to any metal, least of all Gothic Metal.
:*The Sins Of Thy Beloved is already listed.
:*The 69 Eyes is a Glam Rock band with no connection to Gothic Metal.
:*Theater of Tragedy is already listed.
:*Within Temptation is Symphonic Metal with no connection to Gothic Metal apart from being influenced by the scene.
:*Xandria are not Gothic Metal, and so are not listed.
: Your IPod is a bunch of random bands you like, most of which have nothing to do with Gothic Metal. Non of these bands will be added to the list because they are not Gothic Metal. Please read the article and understand what Gothic Metal is before trying to claim unrelated bands as being part of the genre. Ley Shade 13:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I like these bands

message: Please see this page on who's consistently doing such (and cited examples)
Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-01-16 Deathrock & Deathrock fashion
I will do my best to disregard Leyasu from now on.
For all else concerned in the matter, I am currently in the process of overhauling the gothic metal page with cited examples from
reputable sources, and this should be the most comprehensive and 
neutral of any web reference on the subgenre. It should be done by next week. If anyone wants to see a current draft, let me know. Best, Danteferno 15:50 January 18, 2006 (UTC)
: Consensus was reached that the article doesnt need changing, any change to the article with information that isnt accurate will be reverted, and the vandal will be reported to the abbirition commitee. Leyasu 19:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  While we're on the subject of personal attacks, POV, unsourced claims, harassment, et al. 

message: I recommend doing some Google searches with appropriate terms.  For example, to find out what the BBC (a reputable source) says,  search on  "site:bbc.co.uk goth music". That brought me to these sites:"Making the world's musical tribes" and "Goth - a lifestyle choice". Or find out where the term "goth metal" appears on CNN . Or rollingstone.com: .  One potential way to resolve the dispute is to simply delete *everything* on the page, and then re-add facts one at a time,  each with an inline citation showing a reference. For example:  "Gothic Doom" is a cross breed of genres, and "Gothic Metal" is "Goth Rock" that is played using Metal structures and styles.  Examples of Gothic Metal groups are Lacuna Coil, Type O Negative, and Tristania.. The link in brackets after the statement, shows that the information came from an outside source, and where someone else can find that source. If somebody disagrees with the referenced statement, they cannot change it unless they can find another reputable reference that says something different.  If something goes in without a reference, Wikipedia policy is that any editor can remove it, until a reference can be found.  Elonka 00:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In agreement with this idea, 100%; I'm actually in the process of creating an article that not only coincides with that referenced statement, but provides sources on how the genre is broken down on both sides of the Atlantic. This, I think, will solve the disagreements on the time-line, what influenced/influences what, etc. Danteferno 01:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Erm, i can do that WITH the current article, if you so wish Elonka. And conesnus was reached twice mi-lady that such websites are wrong. BBC and such places are not always good sources for Music information, as a place such as say The BNR Metal Pages wouldnt be a good place for sourcing Rocket Science. But still, ill get to working on the Article's citations after some sleep. (Edit) Note To Dante: If you post any article over the one there, without putting it on a temp page and letting other users go through it until a conensus is reached to post it, then it will be counted as vandalism and will be reverted. Leyasu 00:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: As Leyasu already pointed out, while you are certainly right, the criteria for choosing a reputable website is different when it comes to heavy metal music genres. For (an awkward) example, search for "gothic metal" on this same website returns pages citing Dimmu Borgir, a band from Norway, as being gothic metal, while first 10 hits for a search on "Dimmu Borgir" include well known metal-related sites that say they are black metal, and dare I say anyone editing heavy metal articles on Wikipedia if asked would give anything but gothic metal as an answer. I would disregard such a website altogether. -- parasti (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that specific circumstance has to do with Meta tags, which I assume is not what Elonka meant in searching for references (on the contrary, if you do find a bio page that actually calls Dimmu Borgir "gothic metal", in plain writing, let me know).  ---Danteferno 02:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Dante, clarify what you mean by  I think that specific circumstance has to do with Meta tags. As it comes across as what your saying is that sources are only allowed if they agree with you. Leyasu 02:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creating a referenced page 

message: via Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Media, art and literature
I think that viewing the article in terms of a fixed set of versions, in all of which different editors may have invested ownership, is counterproductive. I recommend going back to basics. Look at every statement and ask: "Is it encyclopedic? Is it supported by reputable published sources?"
I don't know or care who has written what, but I do support 's suggestion that a complete rewrite is needed. Much of the article is subjective waffle...
Gothic metal is a somewhat linear genre, but due to much debate, its actual definition is not commonly known. Older fans and musicians have a firm concept of the genre having been around through its growth and evolution, having strict ideas of what bands pertain to the genre and what bands dont. Newer fans reject this categorisation as limiting, useless or wrong, often claiming bands are gothic metal that do not meet the distinct vision of the older fans.
Gothic metal is sometimes a loose genre in the way it sounds because the genre is measured by its composition of the music and the features it uses, leaving interpretation to individual bands on how they wish their instruments to sound. The overall sound in gothic metal plays a minor role to suffice only to depict between itself and other genres. It also makes unique use of dual vocalists, keyboards and acoustic guitars, giving itself identity in comparison to other metal genres.
... that conveys zero information to readers who don't know the genre. Tearlach 13:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me ask then, one question. How can this be improved? Its important to remember in a sense, that consensus was reached twice about the article that Dante wrote, needed to be revised, and due to Dante's constant refusel to help during the revision, it probally isnt now the best article it could be. If the article clearly states the differences in scenes and what is and isnt Gothic Metal, thats fine, everyone can agree. I await the temp page now, so everyone can give their comments forth on things that may be wrong, written badly, or POV. Leyasu 18:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comment: view by Tearlach

message: Comment to Dante: When writing the revision, ive done a bit of exploring out in the world today during rehersals, haha. I think i have found why me and you seem to be totally differing on what is, and isnt, Gothic Metal, in regards to the scenes were involved with.
Let me try to explain one at a time, as this is something that will go into the revision, and youve probally got a better hand at explaining things than me, due to my way of direct speaking.
* Scene 1: Gothic Metal (The Beauty And The Beast).
* This is attributed by the article in its current state. It fits exactly what is said in the article in its current state. This scene is pretty in on itself, cutting itself off from most large scale promotion and media, somewhat like a 'members only' club. Its the largest, but deepest one of the Scenes, being the most wide spread and known off, yet its bands and fans being somewhat quiet instead of promoting itself. Its also heavily rooted in the metal scene, and is heavily populated by purists like me. It also gets knocked by Goth's a lot, due to it having Gothic in its name, yet having no connection to the Goth scene. Somewhat better described in the Gothic rock article.
* Dissassociation of Gothic Metal with the goth subculture.
* Has a defination of Gothic Metal on there
* Clicking the Gothic ticket will take you to the genre description
* Scene 2: Goth Metal (The Gothic-Doom Scene)
* Musically this is best described in the Gothic-Doom section of the current article. This scene involves a lot the Goth's and Doom Metaller's, and bands associated with them. The term Goth Metal for this comes from these bands using a lot of influence from Goth Rock, and being intergrated into the Goth subculture. These bands are mostly, and are almost always indepenent of the Beauty And The Beast scene, the scenes rarely coming together in any form. The distinguishment musically and scene wise is a large gap, and the only relation they have to each other is the similar names (Goth Metal - Gothic Metal). (Edit) This however is partially untrue, with 'some' bands being intergrated into the Gothic Metal scene, but its general core isnt. Its a somewhat scene divided in two, while being the same at the same time. Similar to how the article will be in explaining the different scenes associated with the whole Gothic Metal triad.
* Goth Metal (Gothic-Doom)(Look under the Goth Metal section)
* Gothic Doom
* Gothic Doom (Its on there, but sight is in flash so a direct link cant be made)
* Scene 3: Symphonic Black Metal (Extreme Gothic Metal)
*In the case of Extreme Gothic Metal, this tends to be mostly a term used by Black Metal fans. Mainly it seems to apply to Symphonic Black Metal bands, inferring they are Gothic Metal. This is rejected by the Gothic Metal scene, due to the bands lacking key elements, such as Dual Vocalists, and Lyrical themes. What happens musically here is that several Black Metal bands, either through commercilisation or their own choice, walk a path of including a lot of Symphonic Metal and Gothic Metal elements into their music. The best example at hand is the highly controversial Cradle of Filth. It is true, that, Cradle of Filth take heavy influence from the Gothic Metal genre. It is also true they have progressed into using more Gothic Metal mechanizations, such as instrument usage. Cradle of Filth however, root themselfs into Black Metal with their image, band associations, fans, and core musical aspects. Corely, they are Black Metal, what can be said, is that they include influence of Gothic Metal on all of their black metal aspects. The same argument can be applied however, to most all Symphonic Black Metal bands. Thus, due to the disassociation from Black Metal with its more purist and neoglistic fans, it gets called Extreme Gothic Metal. The name coming from Gothic Metal due to its influences, and Extreme due to its roots in Black Metal. The other minor name commonly used for it by the same scene is Gothic-Black, where as the whole scene as a whole is called Symphonic-Black Metal. 
* (Struggling to find sources, it seems its a very minute few fan groups, apparantly Metal-Archives has even dropped the label due to complaints and attacks at the site)
* Scene 4: Symphonic Metal (The Opera Metal Genre)
* This is the bands you discount as being Symphonic Metal. These bands again, work in their own scene, independent of either Gothic Metal or Goth Metal. They are musically described by the Symphonic Metal article's genre part. It is true, a lot of them grew from Gothic Metal, some from Power Metal, and most from a combination of the two. The genre has ive been exploring isnt just led by female fronted bands, its just mostly led by female fronted bands. Battlelore and Apocolyptica apparantly make work into the genre as well. I have been noticing however, its become a somewhat mixture of Classical Music, Gothic Metal and Power Metal, with some fan groups reffering to it as Gothic-Power. These bands 'sometimes' work with bands of the Gothic Metal genre directly, but only normally through record labels or personel friendships. Something else i also noted was that due to the genres high accesablity and commercilisation (Not from the bands but from record labels and such) its been easily accepted, and many younger fans are assuming its Gothic Metal for reasons explained below, where as metal purists and long time metal fans, and heavily intergrated people such as myself, are calling it Symphonic Metal.
* Some Symphonic metal bands
* Click the symphonic tab to get a view that represents yours
* a brief Google defination
* Scene 5: Association (Assosciation)
* A lot of bands are claimed as Gothic Metal on the basis they are from Finland, or share Gothic Fashon, are psuedo-Goth Rock/Gothic Metal influenced, or a myriad of other non subsequent reasons. This includes bands such as Sentenced, HIM, 69 Eyes, Evanescence, Slipknot, Marilyn Manson and a whole host of others. In the case of most bands in this form, Media misconception and general public assumption is that anyone wearing Gothic Fashon or sharing themes associated with depression, morbidity, vampirisim, etc is automatically Goth Rock or Gothic Metal. In this case, this is wrong, and is a simple misconception by most. However, a small scene has built up around these bands, most commonly known as Mall Goth's, and/or other derogatory terms. This is worth mentioning in connection with the Goth Metal scene, as most bands such as these (Him, My Chemical Romance, 69 Eyes) are media associated with the Goth Metal scene, which has on several occasions openly and freely rejected them. 
* 
Ok, having kept them in one summary paragraphs each, i thought that might help when you draw up the revision to put up the temp page. Also, the old one was deleted, so youll have to create a new one, but im sure thats well in your abilitys. And it would also be nice, if for once, you worked with me, rather than against me, hence the summarys above to help you with the sketch of revision. Hopefully, if we work together on this, perhaps the article might just get to FA stature. Leyasu 02:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether I agree or disagree with any of the above, there needs to be sources to back everything up. For instance, I also do not think HIM and those other two bands are goth/ic metal, but I haven't found enough discussion anywhere on the internet where a significant number of people would think otherwise. The Wikipedia article for the band calls them alternative rock, and there is nothing in the band's Talk page where gothic metal was mentioned, or that there was even disagreement about their genre to begin with - so why even bring them up in the article? Also, I am still looking for "Gothic doom" and haven't found any info that it would be a separate genre. This term seems to be applied to bands like Katatonia and October Tide, much like "Goregrind" being applied to Cannibal Corpse or Exhumed. At the end of the day, each pair has an original genre. Danteferno 15:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revision Comment 

message: I have tried, albightly probally not done it as well as it could be done, to show the history of the split in the scene. Mostly, i did this by copying the history from the current Gothic Metal article and Symphonic Metal article. Idea of this is to use this as blueprints for the next batch of edits, and to also give an idea of how to perhaps do the Musical Constructs section. I juggled some names around to match most common names as ive found them used in work over the last few days. Removing it would lose valuable information, as such, wording it better than I would be better. Ive left out sources for the mean time until its been edited again, as that gives me time to compile them better. Leyasu 01:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My Edits 

message: I would like to do some documentation on the Gothic Metal-Hardcore Fusion, it is a small scene and only 10 bands in the underground do it without much recognition, and I get shot down everytime I try to define it, is there any help here for this? As Gothic Metal is a growing genre and Hardcore/Metalcore bands are experimenting with different fusions, I believe it should be stated. Gothencore is the Gothenburg-Metalcore style where Symphonic/Melodic (Death) Metal is fused into Hardcore with the gang vocals and breakdowns, but their are other bands who do straight up Gothic Metal with Hardcore too! Thanx.
198.189.164.206 17:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Gothcore article was deleted a few weeks ago, the reason being term coining. It had no content, it was constantly vandalised, the article was essentially a talk page on its own. According to your comment, there aren't notable bands that could be labeled as gothcore anyway, so it fails Wikipedia's criteria for notability. Other than that, my personal opinion is that gothic metalcore is an oxymoron in case the gothic part has to do anything with gothic metal, but well. :) -- parasti (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

text: "Gothencore" has nothing to do with goth/ic metal - it's merely an Americanized version of Gothenburg, Sweden-styled death metal with American-hardcore songwriting. I double-checked and found no band that would use "hardcore" and "gothic metal" songwriting styles. Something that needs to be verified with sources/examples (bands, albums, etc.) --Danteferno 23:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Regardless of opinion about this page, I believe it needs to be cleaned up.  The first three paragraphs under the "Gothic Doom" section are almost identical, and offer nothing more than "Gothic Doom is a mix of doom metal and gothic metal" several times over, rephrased in each sentence.
There is some truth in your words. However, there isnt much more to say about it really. The purpose of it is to show the varied influences and sounds in the Gothic-Doom scene, though it could do with expanding perhaps. Ley Shade 00:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Gothic-MetalCore? 

message: Why is it necessary to list off all these bands and then not even have articles or them. I'm not looking to start a revert war and I don't think the original remover was either. It certainly wasn't vandalism. But again, why does anyone want all of these bands listed here. Its more like a plea for articles than adding anything useful to the topic of Gothic Metal. marnues 05:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  I'm not sure if half of the bands which are currently listed are even notable enough to meet WP:MUSIC or not.  Red links are ugly; I'll remove the bands that don't have articles. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 19:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  To clarify, if these bands are in fact notable, write articles about them before including them here.  Since I can browse deleted edits, I looked through all of the redlinked bands, and only Macbeth (band) had any edits to it.  (It had been deleted as non-notable in an AfD.) --Idont Havaname (Talk) 19:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  All the bands are notable and im currently working with a user from the WP:HMM who creates a lot of articles for creation, to get the articles up and running. I already culled the list for impromp, NN bands that are not major in the genres working, and added editorial tags. All of which i did at user Marnues inspiriring. Im not trying to be a bitch here, just work with me on this one. I understand the red links are ugly, but humour them being there for a while. Ley Shade 21:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  They need articles if they are in fact notable, and writing articles for them is more productive than simply reverting changes.  Most of the bands in the list have been on the list for months and have had no articles written about them.  So it's time to get writing, so that the coverage of the genre is better (just like Marnues was saying), rather than just reverting. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 01:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

text: All the sources are all over the talk page, and you removed the External Links which make up part of the sources. I relisted EVERYTHING due to the fact the purpose of having the list is to give example of the core bands in the scene and the comparisons within. I also restored the External Links, which make up the sources. 20:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's actually no-where near good enough to say "all over" while making some sort of hand waving motions.  Items need to be sourced, explicitly and in the main article from reliable sources.  Again, if the links make up sources, there are now examples for the very easy in-line cite method.  Until they get converted into real <ref>s then there is no reason to "store" them in the article, they are there in history.  And finally, where is the citation that (for example) Forest of Shadows is a gothic metal band?  When you put something in (even if you're replacing it) the verification policy says that you're resonpsible for providing sources.brenneman {L}  14:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of Bands

message: The list is largly unsourced, and a note telling people "DON'T REMOVE" is a bit incivil as well.  Better phrased as "please read the talk page prior to taking any action."  So I have.  The guidelines on lists is something that bears mentioning: "As a basic principle, you should avoid list-making in entries." - brenneman {L}  03:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All the sources are all over the talk page, and you removed the External Links which make up part of the sources. I relisted EVERYTHING due to the fact the purpose of having the list is to give example of the core bands in the scene and the comparisons within. I also restored the External Links, which make up the sources. 20:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's actually no-where near good enough to say "all over" while making some sort of hand waving motions.  Items need to be sourced, explicitly and in the main article from reliable sources.  Again, if the links make up sources, there are now examples for the very easy in-line cite method.  Until they get converted into real <ref>s then there is no reason to "store" them in the article, they are there in history.  And finally, where is the citation that (for example) Forest of Shadows is a gothic metal band?  When you put something in (even if you're replacing it) the verification policy says that you're resonpsible for providing sources.brenneman {L}  14:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of list 

message: Why not merge gothic rock and gothic metal, they're basically the same thing.
: No they arent, they are nothing alike. Try reading both articles, the musical similaritys and scene similaritys are near non-existant. Ley Shade 14:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge?

message: I say this because to bands that have really nothing to do with Gothic metal were listed as such. Just becasue a metal band has a lead female singer that does not make them Gothic. 
Bands such as Nightwish, Magica, Sinergy, Visions of Atlantis, and Lunatica all have a lead female singer but they are not Gothic Metal. 
To many times bands are list as Gothic when at the end of the day they do not have the stlye of music.
: Logically, you're right. However practically, 'gothic metal' is just a label, and if that label gets widespread use in an illogical way then you still have to acknowledge that. It's not Wikipedia's place to make prescriptive judgements, just descriptive commentary. Kylotan 19:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Female singer does not = Gothic 

message: *Metal music/temp nominated for deletion, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Metal music/temp.
*Gothic Metal/Rewrite nominated for deletion, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gothic Metal/Rewrite.
Thanks--Ling.Nut 15:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gothic Metal/Rewrite &  Metal music/temp nominated for deletion