Talk:Call a spade a spade

message: Does "spade" in this context refer to the type of shovel, or the old derogatory term for a person of African heritage?
143.182.124.2 17:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The expression to call a spade a spade is thousands of years old and etymologically has nothing whatsoever to do with any racial sentiment. The exact origin is uncertain; the ancint Greek playwright Menander, in a fragment, said "I call a fig a fig, a spade a spade," but Lucian attributes the phrase to Aristophanes. Later, Plutarch notes that "The Macedonians are a rude and clownish people who call a spade a spade." It first appeared in English in the sixteenth century, and the racial reference from the colour of the suit of playing cards, spades, dates from 20th century.  I am currently looking for links etc to make a full edit over the weekend.  Till then remember if there are two possible meanings for something and one makes you unhappy then the other was the intended meaning. -- Drappel 18:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm. I had always heard this phrase applied to the Latin historian Tacitus whose obsession with writing in an "elevated" style led him to avoid such commonplace words as, well, "shovel" or "spade". (I remember my amusement when I encountered that very passage in his writings.) He should be mentioned in this article. -- llywrch (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's in Annals 1.65 that Tacitus famously refers to "implements for digging earth and cutting turf" because he can't bring himself to use such an unrefined word as "spades". Wish I could find a way of working it into the article … Vilĉjo (talk) 22:44, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:    Abt T & by T.--Jerzy•t 00:16, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

text:    Well, Drappel, -- and likewise  Llywrch, -- absence of evidence is often not evidence of absence. So are you saying that you checked OED and not even written use of "... black as the ace of spades" by 1900 has been found? Or just that "spade" as a racial designation has that OED status?   IMO, it is implausible that the single-word term is more that 10 or 20 years newer than the phrase, yet the delay between oral and print use might be a lot longer for the term than the phrase. Consider the likelihood that use of a term of abuse -- esp'ly if it does it'sits work primarily in the in form of trivialization, (i.e. treating an individual --( of a specific group, in this case) -- as no more worthy of attention than a cheap entertainment device is --) is far less likely to find its way into print quickly than is a toothsome - and more generally applicable - simile that it derives from.--Jerzy•t 00:16 &02:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

text: Although it seems clear from the etymology that it relates to a shovel, the article says this is 'self evident' or 'evident' (sorry, being lazy)... I always thought that it was from the suit in card games before this. So it is not self-evident, or easily assumed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.235.253 (talk) 11:08[:17], 29 September 2013‎NJX— Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.235.253 (talk) 11:08[:36], 29 September 2013‎
Note: A spade is not a shovel, and shovel is not a spade.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.55.165 (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Spade?

message: --CopyToWiktionaryBot 02:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2007-07-20 Automated pywikipediabot message 

message: Matt Colvin, a scholar of ancient Greek, says that the article depends on the wrong quote. https://colvinism.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/call-a-spade-a-spade-miley-cyrus-and-the-ancient-greeks/ 69.118.49.33 (talk) 01:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible error in the article 

message: The following points probably need to be made in the article, at least if somebody can find RS citations to back them up:
*1) As an ethnic slur, it can refer to blacks in general, not simply African-Americans. In Britain, it would typically be used to refer to British blacks, not American ones.
*2) It is not just avoided by the politically correct. It is also actively used by others as a racist joke (usually expressed as "I believe in calling a spade a spade", usually accompanied by a smile or laugh to make it clear that the usage is not an innocent non-racist one). 
**2b) As a result, avoiding it arguably makes a lot of sense and is NOT a case of 'political correctness gone mad' (the article doesn't say it's such a case, but some readers might gain that impression, especially as they are not currently told about the racist joke).
*3) It would help if the article suggested 'politically correct' alternatives (perhaps "calling a shovel a shovel" ???), though I don't know whether there are any RS offering any (and also whether or not the alternative then tends to become a new ethnic slur because everybody knows it means 'spade').Tlhslobus (talk) 06:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  More needed on ethnic slur 

message: Thoughts on  the above:
1. As an ethnic slur, it can refer to blacks in general not simply African-Americans.  [Your next sentence is confusing] In Britain it would typically be used to refer to British blacks, not American ones.
My push back on this is, part one of your idea "blacks in general, not simply African-Americans" vs In Britain it "the useage of the phrase" would typically be used to refer to British Blacks, not American ones.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zerostatetechnologies (talk • contribs) 08:04, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? Kleuske (talk) 09:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Needed on Ethnic Slur II 

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