Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Archive 50

message: Just this day we have a very bad example of the negative campaigning on the Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Khoikhoi. Somebody posted notes to the talk pages of one hundred  different editors (having Turkish as their native language) asking them (in Turkish) to vote against the RfA. Not a single diff proving the Khoikhoi's alleged POV pushing was shown but 20 users voted against the RfA and certainly more were about to come. I know Khoikhoi's as a rounded-up editor who loves to mediate and solve difficult national conflicts, who would benefit greatly if given some sort of an authority. I certainly did not saw all of his 15K edits, so lets talk about an abstract situation: 
We have large national communities on the English wikipedia. If somebody would send notes to a hundred users asking to vote against a candidate for the benefit of the motherland, he would probably get ~30 oppose votes (and maybe 10..20 support votes), also he would get many oppose and neutral votes from the unrelated voters, because the candidate would appear too controversial. With the system of one oppose vote equal to four support, the candidate would needed 150..200 support votes that are impossible to obtain without wide camapaigning (that is an evil by itself). Thus, one nationalist could ruin all the RfAs from the national group he dislikes without showing any diffs or demonstrating any wrongdoings. I think it is very evil. Maybe we should consider a Jury-style voting, when everybody can present their evidence and opinions, but voting itself is performed by some sort of a jury ( a fixed group of people randomly chosen from the pool of people willing to evaluate RfAs)?
abakharev 04:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am disturbed by the appearance of interest groups on English Wikipedia who seem willing to carry on proxy wars for their groups in RfA. Nevertheless, there would need to be a lot of discussion and indications of community sentiment in order to change the system. -- Cecropia 06:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: So let's see. He (User:Metb82) spammed a mass of talk pages, wrote the message in Turkish presumably to obfoscate the meaning to the rest of us, and used an external link so that his posting didn't show up in "What links here". As far as I am concerned this is acting in very bad faith indeed and deserves at the very least a stern warning. --kingboyk 08:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This should not be tolerated; would an arbitration case do any good? Conscious 09:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely.  This irks me like no other.  Imagine the reaction of the "Oh so holier than thou" if someone did this to an Islamic editor.--Looper5920 09:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure I would be wanting to take it that far (although I understand why others might). A strong warning or if rules have been broken a short ban would be more my way of thinking. Move discussion to Admins Noticeboard? --kingboyk 12:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The best defense against any sort of campaign to garner votes on either side of an issue is publicity. When you expose the campaign, all the people not paying attention will look into it and make the right decision, offsetting any benefit the campaigners may have had. Remember Jason Gastrich and the AfD vote stacking of some 3 months ago. Publicity solved the problem. No need to complain about it, just announce it on WP:AN or some other appropriate forum (in this case right here), and let regular wiki editors make their rational decisions on the issue. Works every time. NoSeptember talk 12:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it was a WikiProject or noticeboard. More block votes and POV gangs tend to come from those than from userboxes from what I've seen (please don't make me find examples!) :) --kingboyk 13:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The problem with a sanctions-type resolution is that people will disagree on what sanctions are appropriate and which votes are legitimate and which are not. Can you say "Wheel War?" ;-) If you let a few hundred people know what is going on, and a few dozen come over and read the RfA or AfD at issue, you will get a bunch of votes from disinterested third parties that will ensure the right decision is made. A decision by the community is better than that of a single admin or bureaucrat, because admins and bureaucrats disagree all the time, as I'm sure many of you have noticed. NoSeptember talk 14:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the comment that the solution here is public exposure when issues like these arise. If I had known this was happening I would have voted in support of the proposed admin (in order to counter the negative vote rigging). In this case the editor withdrew their RfA but in the future if this happens I think there should be a notice of the event posted on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. This will allow neutral admins and others to come weigh in on the issue.--Alabamaboy 15:12, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What can be done in a constructive fashion now? First, we should inform Metb82 that his actions have been disclosed. As Khoikhoi has withdrawn his nomination, I think there's no need to take any further action now (except maybe for encouraging him to try again in a while). Should a similar situation happen again... well, let's rely on our bureaucrats to handle it properly. Conscious 15:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The thought occurred to me too that it's a matter for the bureaucrats which is why I went silent on the issue. I see that no warning has been issued though; I'm not sure how it should be worded but I think he should be warned. --kingboyk 13:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've left a note at User talk:Metb82. Conscious 15:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you provide a translation of Metb82's message? Conscious 17:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: In addition, although Khoikhoi had a good record to be an admin, the apparent POV issues directly clouded my vote - my initial instinct was this was a good editor, however, the concerns raised about POV/user conflict caused me to stay on the safe side. In retrospect, aware of the situation, backroom vote dealings also indirectly effect outside voters, like myself. --Jay(Reply) 22:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: *Sigh* What I added was neutral and can be backed up with sources. You, on the other hand, have removed paragraphs related to the Armenian Genocide, and added pictures like these to Cyprus-related articles. --Khoikhoi 05:50, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Suggested policy: Due to the very serious nature of negative votestacking, the recommended response for negative votestacking will be blocking for one week and a 1 month ban on that user voting in RfAs. To be clear: this is not intended as a punishment, but as a deterrent. JoshuaZ 21:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support this idea. --Khoikhoi 04:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: *Sigh** Exactly! Just like you adding Armenian massacre to Adana page, that picture is neutral and backed up with sources too. I was just fixing a mistake in the genocide page which i could verify with strong links, but i think you erasing that picture from Cyprus page should be considered vandalism because it is a picture illustrating a paragraph of that article. (Metb82 02:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Um, what? JoshuaZ 02:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I cited Britannica, you simply removed the entire paragraph. The pictures that you added were not only removed by me, but by 5 other users, and you kept adding them. Do you think this picture illustrates the "Post-independence" section which you added it to repeatedly? --Khoikhoi 04:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: as much as adana massacre represents a city of 2 million. You know its even needless discussing with you, everyone here can see that you are not NPOV enough to be an admin. People are not stupid. (Metb82 06:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite the contrary, Metb82, quite the contrary. --Khoikhoi 06:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Negative campaigning

message: Wow, that was a weekend with some crazy RfA action, no?  Anyway, concerning this Khoikhoi business.  If the allegations above are true (I have no way to verify, I don't know Turkish) then this represents an extremely serious gaming of the system, which was eventually successful.  Worse is that this sets a worrying precedent.  People are discussing what needs to be done in this case to fix this particular situation, and that is fine.  But I think it would be clear that something needs to be changed or this can happen in every RfA, since as the situation stands, this will always be effective.  
Now, of course, some people really do believe that this is a vote.  And if it is, let's be clear:  what Metb82 did, or is alledged to have done, is perfectly legitimate, and in fact, encouraged, in a democracy.  You get your supporters' bodies into the poll booth, no matter what.  Of course, I take this as an object lesson as to why voting is evil in these things.  On the other hand, if this is about reaching or measuring consensus, then everyone who came here as a result of campaigning should be ignored, or at the least, should have their opinion multiplied by a very small number.  Let me propose an idea about this:  what if the policy is, if you ever get exhorted on your talk page to come and vote in an RfA before you vote, then your vote doesn't count.  Positive or negative.  This would make any campaigning counterproductive.  I think most people find positive campaigning in RfA's at least somwhat distasteful, and I'm sure now everyone has a really bad taste in their mouth about negative campaigning.  And in this current situation, there would have been no problem in the first place.
Of course, one counterargument is that an agent provacateur could go ahead and preemptively leave messages on the Talk pages of known supporters of a candidate asking them to support, thereby negating their votes, and this is a flaw.  However, it seems to me that if the only people who would have supported your RfA are people who are widely known to be your supporters, then you don't have consensus in the first place.--Deville (Talk) 13:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problems of a representative democracy have been exhaustively discussed in many forums, and probably somewhere on wikipedia as well. There is no limit on the number of admins, and it's an almost irreversible transition, so I don't see that there is any competition. However, as long as any username can vote, then it is an election, and not a consensus, no matter the contrary intention. - Richardcavell 13:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Noone would campaign cus it wouldn't be a vote.  It'd be a listing of reasons for and against.--Urthogie 20:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This seems like a reasonable solution, but one would need to be careful about what constituted new reasons so one doesn't just end up with "support per _". JoshuaZ 21:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  Hello and thanx everybody for discussing this. I think what i did was not wrong, because as you could see on Khoikhoi's nomination, both the nominator Latinus and all of the voters that supported Khoikhoi were mostly in POV wars taking sides with him. Now what i dont understand is, why this isnt this considered as a worrying precedent because they all know the start time of the nomination so they have enough time to notify each other without being exposed before it starts. I think what i did could bring the nomination more equality if the people i sent messages to had time to vote.(Metb82 01:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  See among other issues WP:POINT if vote stacking in one direction is occuring, the proper thing to do is to aler other users and alert the buraeucrats, not to vote stack the other way. This is even assuming your statement is true. JoshuaZ 21:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A modest proposal to fix the gamed system

message: I am no longer a bureaucrat on the English Wikipedia.
During the AzaToth RfA I made an error when I closed a discussion early because I forgot the clocks had gone forward the night before, and I was no longer working at UTC but at UTC+1.  Believing this to be a fairly minor error I immediately apologised on the bureaucrats' noticeboard and asked for advice from others as to the best action to take.  A can of worms was then opened in which I was heavily criticised, my judgement was called into question and I received emails and a message on my talk page informing me that I was no longer trusted as a bureaucrat.  This is only partly why I have stood down.
When the stress of Wikipedia started exceeding the stress of paid employment I did what I always did in the past and went on Wikibreak because real life is more important.  I then received more criticism telling me that as a bureaucrat going on Wikibreak at that point was an error in judgement.  This is why I have handed in my bureaucratship, because real life takes priority.  I cannot be tied down to a project where my real life is effected by the levels of stress the project is producing, and when I am criticised for placing my livelihood and my family as a priority over Wikipedia, that's when I know I'm in the wrong place.
I don't know if I will continue to participate in future RfAs.  I have withdrawn my opposition from current RfB nominations because my judgement is no longer trusted. -- Francs2000  13:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone makes mistakes, don't they? One can be forgiven if he makes mistakes. Don't get yourself so guilty over this matter. However, I have to respect your decision. All the best to your real life activities and you will still be a good admin and editor. ;) --Terence Ong 13:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry to hear that, I hope you some day can return to be a bureaucrat. →AzaToth 13:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Yikes. Also sorry to hear that. I think your error was minor and not a resigning matter, but since I do trust your judgement I can hardly call into question your judgement on this matter! I hope you stick around as an editor and admin. --kingboyk 13:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I understand why you are resigning as a bureaucrat but I agree with the previous comments that this was a minor error (and, speaking for myself, calls into question the judgement of those who jumped all over you about this). I wish you the best and hope this doesn't sour you on Wikipedia as a whole.--Alabamaboy 14:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering they are 1 million+ users, 800+ admins and only 8 bureaucrats... may I be bold enough to ask you to reconsider if your resignation is not accepted as yet? --hydkat 14:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) Sorry to see the person who started my talkpage so stressed. Cheer up, Francs2000, I hope other activities will make you feel better. Conscious 14:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Of course real life comes first - anyone who says otherwise is frankly nuts.  Taking a wikibreak to defuse a period of wikistress strikes me as exactly the right thing to do.  Don't worry - most of us still trust you.  (Having said that, a brief explanation of why AzaToth's RFA was unsuccessful would not go amiss, though.  For the avoidance of doubt, I agree that it would have been quite unusual for it to have succeeded, but that does not mean that an explanation is not in order when one is requested - just point me at it if it already exists.) -- ALoan (Talk) 14:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry to hear that you have decided to resign, but you've got your priorities exactly right. Life (family, friends, work (in that order)) trumps Wikipedia. FWIW, I think the math error was more of a big deal in this RfA than the slightly early close. But both are miniscule in my view... Here's hoping everything works out for you whatever you choose to do. ++Lar: t/c 14:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: As the one who left the comment on you talk page, I hope that you saw that yesterday I withdrew my statement about my trust being misplaced and explained what the basis of the original statement was.  I've also mentioned on your talk page and in discussions elsewhere comments stating that it was unfortuneate that your relatively small mistakes were magnified so much in the course of the discussion regarding the controversy.  I also said I respected your decision to absent yourself from the discussion.  So I am going to take at face value the note you left on my talk page that this is not about anything I have said and is indeed about prioritizing your life. —Doug Bell talk•contrib 16:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Francs, I hope you reconsider. What you did was a very small mistake, and what was too blame was an excessive zeal of one or two supporters of that RfA which could not pass in anyway. You are right in all you say above. Please reconsider. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Francs, if you don't want bear the Wikistress involved at RfA then it is not unreasonable to withdraw. Unfortunately, while most bureaucrat action is routine, it is bound to involve conflict from time to time; however, please put out of your mind the concept that your are "not trusted" at Wikipedia. I see nothing at all to back up that assumption. -- Cecropia 16:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I hope you reconsider too, though the last thing I'd want would be if you were to feel further pressured by such calls.  I see absolutely no reason at all why 'crats shouldn't be as entitled to wikibreaks as anyone else;  or to going on a 'crat-break, as quite manifestly this is a right that many of the corps are even now exercising!  If by some strange chance all of our active bureaucrats go on break, and none of the inactives return to duty, then we can worry about the urgency of the situation.  Alai 16:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe this to be a very minor error. In fact, I was rather annoyed by the fact that MediaWiki does not yet have an option to automatically adjust DST for those who live in countries which observe it. I'd ask you to reconsider your resignation, since you always seemed to be one of the most level-headed of all admins and bureaucrats, for that matter, to me; I can understand if the stress has become too much for you, though. (You wouldn't believe the amount of stress I currently endure in real life — in comparison, Wikipedia is like a vacation to me. =]) Cheers, —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 18:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second Nightstallion's comment. ⇒ SWATJester  Ready  Aim  Fire! 18:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: For goodness sakes it was a clock error! I blame the time council for this. Francs, you still have my trust. Shame on them. Shame on them all! (it was a CLOCK error:) --Jay(Reply) 22:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no reason to take a simple error so hard, Franks2000.  The only people who are perfect and don't make mistakes are those who don't get up in the morning.  Your's was a simple mistake and easily explained, understood and forgiven.  Please continue.  The error was just a drop in the bucket of the rubble that ensued and that you were not at all responsible for.  I'm convinced it would have ensued anyway which is why I've proposed to clarify the language on the process to sysop someone (i.e., to help preventing such confrontations going forward).  It would really be too bad to see someone good and dedicated step down over this.  That would not make the Pedia better.  Please reconsider and continue if the error and needed breaks from time to time are the only reason you want to step down.  Everyone has other commitments and everyone needs breaks and semi-breaks at times.  Just because you became a crat doesn't remove them and I don't think anyone would expect it would.  It would be great if you continued on as a crat.  --Mmounties (Talk)   05:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It's resigned. Sorry that you feel guilty for what you did Francs, you are one of the best admins we have around here, and that error you made was minute, human, and ultimately of no real consequence or harm. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that sentiment...without any intention of insulting those that were impacted.--MONGO 09:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Francs' resignation is a principled action, which does honor to the position. Francs, thank you for your services as a respected member of the community. --Ancheta Wis 10:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Francs2000 is no longer a bureaucrat 

message: Just wondering if someone could enlighten me as to why edit summary rates are taken so seriously in RfA's. Yes, everyone should use edit summaries wherever possible, but there are contexts where they are less important:
*Talk pages (do people often read talk page histories? in most cases the comment stands for itself)
*A series of uncontroversial edits to the same page: When the same user has made 10 edits in a row to a page, the benefit of summarising each edit is reduced.
And of course, sometimes we just forget, or hit the "save page" button instead of the "this is a minor edit" checkbox.
So, compared to, say, edit wars, vandalism, or breaching any other policy, a mediocre rate of edit summaries seems less serious, no? Stevage 11:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also think it's not too serious, but it shouldn't also be taken too lightly. Generally you'll not edit talk pages too much or make 10 edits in a row. This should bring your percentage to around 80% or so, which is acceptable. If anyone needs it, there is a script to force that input. Fetofs Hello! 12:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: In my view edit summaries, good ones, are critical. They help vandal fighters, and they help other editors of the article hone in on what was substantive in the change, or why the comment is worth reading. With the available automation to remind you that you need to make one easily installed, any editor that has a low percentage (even on minors) is going to be evaluated a bit lower by me, all other factors being equal. Is it a deal breaker? no. Is it a negative factor? yes. IMHO. As I say at my entry in the criteria page (which link escapes me at the moment) ++Lar: t/c 12:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say it's Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Standards. Fetofs Hello! 13:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: D'oh! Blazingly obvious. Sorry for not remembering and thanks! ++Lar: t/c 14:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: There is now a new box in your editing preferences for prompting you, once per edit, to add a summary if you should miss one out. -Splashtalk 12:54, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It shows conscientiousness on the part of contributors and per Splash it's very helpful for page-watchers. I really dislike seeing ten minors in a row; a slog to check them all and no summaries just makes that worse. Agreed, lack of summaries is not an opppose reason on its own, but in combination with other things may turn a support to neutral, neutral to oppose etc. Marskell 13:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Durin, why not just compare between the first and last minor edit, rather than each individually? Then there's only one check to be made. Stevage 16:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It has been like this for a long, long time. There are certain areas of Wikipedia which are regarded almost as private fiefdoms by those who frequent them (see recent comments on this matter by Massivego). A bit like the userbox kerfuffle, really, only more entrenched. Really, edit sumeries are an excellent idea, and help eleviate concerns on watchlists, but aren't truly substantial in the analysis of an canidate. It's being used a bit too much as a coup-out in regards to a negative opinion.-ZeroTalk 14:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure I follow. I use it as one of my criteria but I'd like to hope I'm not using it as a cop out and I suspect that's true for most everyone. ++Lar: t/c 14:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The people who do this know who they are. Really its a very minor point in the manner a wikipedian should conduct one's self, but shouldn't be the only basis for an opposistion. -ZeroTalk 14:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I can't agree with you that the basis of an administrative nomination should be determined by edit summary count. Of what I did see, the most puzzling was your quote of description : A number of RfA voters find the frequency of use of edit summaries by a nominee is a potential factor in voting for or against a nominee.. I see something wrong with that. It was not a clear summary of describing how a person would perform administrative duties, nor was it accurate. I do hope people focus more on the canidate's performance and posistion. We'll see how it goes. -ZeroTalk 16:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: *It is not inaccurate. A number of people do find the frequency of edit summary usage to be a factor in deciding how to vote in RfAs. You see something wrong with that. That's fine. Some people do not. That's fine too. Some people do consider having some focus on a nominee's usage of edit summaries as relating to how well they will perform administrator duties. --Durin 21:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also note that Mathbot explicitly disclaims that the edit summary usage is a measure of the worth of an editor. Also another example where I don't use edit summaries: creation of a new page. What is there to say, besides, "I created this new page"? I thoroughly agree that in heavily vandalised or controversial pages, every edit should be summarised to help out other editors. But when everyone is working together in harmony, it's simply not that necessary, and people will tend to check all the diffs since the last time they edited. Stevage 15:05, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you create a new page, the first sentence of the article (Foo is a barish baz) will make a perfect edit summary that can help new page patrollers or people who sort new pages thematically. Kusma (討論) 15:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Not a bad idea, thanks! Stevage 16:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: FWIW, I probably barely scrape 5% edit summaries on minor edits. Not all browsers "remember" a minor edit code so you can jut type an "s" and have it remember that the last thing you typed in beginning with S was "stub correction". When you're doing a batch of 200 copy/paste stub changes, it would enormously increase the time taken for adding that each time (and because it's a copy/paste thing, I can't also have "stub correction" in my clipboard). Major edits in articles, yes, I can understand why edit summaries are useful there - but not with minor edits, and not with any pages where a person would normally sign their comments anyway. Grutness...wha? 01:09, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit summaries

message: Why do we allow votes that don't say anything but support or oppose?  Shouldn't we require people to either give a reason or at least state that they agree with a given person?  This is supposed to be a discussion, not a vote, right?--Urthogie 13:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As a general rule people are always called out on oppose with no reason but never support with no reason. I agree some minimum comment should be required. Marskell 13:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? A support vote implicitly states "this person is acceptable to me to have adminship" and an oppose vote implicitly states "this person is not acceptable to me to have adminship." Unless one has something to tell the community that may influence others' decisions, I see no need for a reason to justify a vote. When I review who has already voted, the reputation of the voter casting the vote matters more to me than what they say in most cases. NoSeptember talk 14:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: For one thing, an oppose vote carries much more weight mathmatically than a support vote. It takes 4 support votes to "cancel out" an oppose vote, though of course b'crat discretion is the ultimate factor. I do think people should explain oppose votes, based on my own RfA experience (where I never had any idea what the 2 objecters objected to). But at the same time, I don't think people should be reluctant to oppose because they don't want to get jumped on by a bunch of people. I think a good compromise is for oppose voters to explain their basic objection, and for everyone else to respect that and not hassle them. If we're all acting in good faith, of course :-) --W.marsh 14:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yeah, and supporters should explain why they support too. These are just personal preferences... I don't know that codifying these things would be a good idea at all. --W.marsh 14:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think of it a little differently. Although I provide a reason for almost every support vote I've given, I don't think it's as important to provide reasons for a support vote as it is for an oppose vote because the comments given in an oppose vote can help the RFA candidate improve for future RFAs if it fails, and maybe what needs to be done prior to taking on admin tasks even if the RFA passes. That's not as much of a factor in the support votes, unless, of course, the support vote still provides a qualifier like "Support, but I'm concerned about X". --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  question 

message: Would just like to point out mailing list posts on the above RFA: . NSLE (T+C) at 06:54 UTC (2006-04-01)
:Thanks for that. Those pointers lead to a quite long and thoughtful conversation thread that addresses many of the points raised here plus many more. Many great points raised by many great editors/admins... Recommended reading. (with a small sigh as to why it's all said there and not here but I haven't completely grokked the maillist vs. here social norms yet) ++Lar: t/c 14:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I was the one who posted it there. :) Personally, I find email better suited to serious discussion. YMMV. Stevage 14:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mailing list post about [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Tyrenius]] 

message: I guess my brain left the Bureaucracy before the rest of me. I closed User:HereToHelp's RfA but forgot to push "the button." So would an active bcrat do it for me, since I have thrown myself to the gerbils? Not an April Fool's joke. Thanks and cheers, Cecropia 14:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Essjay Talk • Contact 17:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  HereToHelp's RfA 

message: Slicky withdrew his RfA simply by deleting it. Could a bureaucrat fix this up please? - Richardcavell 18:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Was already done before you reinstated it. In fact, I was edit conflicted while closing it; another user got to it even faster than I did. In general, we will catch these things and take care of the closing in due time. Essjay Talk • Contact 18:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, Essjay. I did think of this possibility but wanted to make sure it didn't get lost. - Richardcavell 18:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh, to be faster than Essjay. :-D Moe ε 19:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slicky's RfA 

message: Recent events on RfA/RfB have resulted in the resignation of two bureaucrats. Losing anyone under such circumstances is distinctly regrettable. In particular, I would like to note that Cecropia's resignation as a bureaucrat has left a gaping hole with huge shoes to fill. Some may be aware (most probably are not) that Cecropia has been by far the most active bureaucrat. Over the last year, he has performed just over 50% of all promotions. The next most active bureaucrat (Nichalp) has performed just 12%. While it is true that some promotions might have been done by other bureaucrats had Cecropia not gotten to them, the fact is that a huge amount of effort available to us by Cecropia's helpfulness is now gone. 
The last several RfBs have frequently seen people vote in opposition because of the perception that we don't need more bureaucrats. That is most definitely not the case anymore. Over the last year, 14 other bureaucrats did less promotions than Cecropia by himself. If the other bureaucrats do not step up their activity level, then we're in need of a dozen or more new bureaucrats. 
Let's not put forth candidates that are weak. But, let's find strong candidates who are willing to do this thankless job, and will clearly pass standards people have for RfB. 90% is a difficult level of approval to meet. Let's not drag people before RfB that are not ready, and are not likely to easily pass. We don't want to turn this period into something terribly ugly. We need to work through it and move forward gracefully. and before anyone asks, no I will not run for bureaucrat as I don't pass my own standards...in particular being an admin for a year. I've still six months to go --Durin 19:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument that we do not need more B'crats is still valid.  If the b'crats we have bothered to step up, then it will become evident that more are not needed.  The potential workload is easily managable if the moderately active b'crats were willing to spread the work.  If they aren't willing to do the very narrowly assigned task the community has entrusted in them, then they need to be de'b'crated.  Then, and only then, may we need more b'crats.  Until that time, despite the gargantuan hole left in Cecropia's wake, my standards remain unchanged.  --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 19:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe the bureaucrats that we have now are doing as much as they can. We don't know. I've placed requests with the next four most active bureaucrats (Nichalp, Rdsmith4, UninvitedCompany, and Raul654) to step up their work in this area. They are the only ones with 20 or more promotions in the last year other than Cecropia. Personally, I think we burned Cecropia out. Heaving heavier burdens onto the shoulders of the remaining bureaucrats is probably not the best solution. In my opinion, it is at best a stop gap. Also note that in the last year the rate of admin promotions has trended up about 70%. Further, 81 of the last 100 promotions were done by Cecropia. --Durin 19:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If all the b'crats would bother to do their jobs, we wouldn't be talking.  But lets say we can convince at least seven b'crats to be, well, b'crats.  Two promotions a day is not too much to ask for, no?  That's fourteen a day amongst the lot, assuming perfect consistency - that is (ignoring withdrawn and speedy-removed pile-on noms) 98 a week.  Right now, there fifteen active RfAs.  Fifteen.  The need just does not exist at the moment, and the fifteen that are there now, across seven days, could easily be handeled by one b'crat.  --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 20:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes there aren't 2 a day to promote, much less for each b'crat. Every time I check, an RfA is about 3 hours from p-hour, but when I get back to it it's gone :\ — Ilyanep (Talk) 20:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, there's a perfect solution for that. Just log on 3 hours late everyday.;-) —Encephalon 21:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential problem brewing 

message: Most of the RfA/RfBs are non-controversial - they are either clearly fell or clearly succeeded. How about having a rule that the controversial RfAs should be closed by a collective decision of a plurality of bureaucrats? (Or either by an active bureaucrat, that have closed more than XX RfAs, or by plurality of the lesser active bureaucrats). That way we should eliminate the allegations that there exist "dormant bureaucrats" only interested in influencing controversial decisions concerning their friends? abakharev 22:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to be sufficiently well-established that in the 75-80% zone, there's a degree of discretion, and the traditional formula uttered during RfBs is to say there'd be consultation between BCs in such a case.  Above I suggested trying to establish a similar "zone" for RfBs themselves.  I'm not sure anything much more formal or elaborate than that is likely to be much additional help.  For one thing, trying to define "controversial" is problematic if one tries to nail this down too tightly.  Alai 04:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your proposal on RfB. I do not see much difficulties in formal nailing down the "controversial" requests - we can just use the numerics (e.g. for RfAs Promotions with less than 83% of support and Falls with more than 72% of support; for RfBs All promotions (they are such a rare event anyway), Falls with more than 80% of support). abakharev 00:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: It is probably a perennial proposal, but anyway. We have an extremely high requirements for the bureaucrats, so all bureaucrats should have have an enormous trust of the community. On the other hand we do not have enough work for the existent b'crats. It seems to be a waste to have a pool of highly trusted people but to not use them. How about giving the bureaucrats an additional job that require a lot of trust? E.g. give them a power to suspend the sysop privilege's for a short time (say for less than 48h). abakharev 22:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See this discussion from February. NoSeptember talk 22:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I knew it should be a perennial proposal. I was thinking I am proposing something less drastic than what discussed in the link you provided. Not to give a full power to de-sysop, but only a power to temporarily suspend the adminship according to the well-defined formal rules (e.g. for the self-unblocking, violation of the 3RR in the wheel war, etc.),  the bigger or less formal things should still be done by the stewards abakharev 00:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: First, you have the current bureaucrats do their current job. Then you worry about giving them extra stuff to do, no? -- Cecropia 22:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually both proposals would somehow increase the number of characters that b'crats are to type. They both have the potential to decrease the number of characters typed by the other users, complaining about some controversies. abakharev 00:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another proposal

message: User:Oscark added  to the bottom of the RfA page. For now I have moved it to the top of the page. I have also left a note at Oscark's page explaining the RfA process. I did not know what else to do, or whether it requires a b'crat to remove the link. So any admin or b'crat - please do the needful and remove the link. - Aksi_great 10:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the link. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  User:Oscark 

message: What's up with all the people using templates to thank people who voted in their RFAs? I realize that votes run in the hundreds these days and it is difficult to thank people individually they way many did back when I ran. Not that it's necessary to thank your voters anyway—presumably they voted for you because they thought you were a good candidate, not because they wanted to do you a favor. But why does everyone use these colored boxes with pictures? And what I especially don't understand is why people feel it necessary to write that their bid passed with a vote of 84/0/1 or whatever. What possible reason is there to list one's final tally on all of the voters' talk pages, except to display one's impressive showing? Doesn't anyone else think it's a bit tacky to do this? — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it's unnecessary to thank everyone who voted for you. It wouldn't hurt to thank your nominator, but I didn't even do that when I became an admin.-gadfium 06:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I have to agree here also.  Fine to thank someone if there was some particular reason for a personal thank you on an RfA or RfB, but the impersonal form-letter thank you's to everyone that voted in your Rf* are not necessary. —Doug Bell talk•contrib 06:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: While thanking contributors to a RfA discussion is good ettiquette, I personally cannot stand those kinds of thank you's.  They are ugly clunky and unnecessary.  I have personally de-html-ified any such message I get.  In my view, a simple (text) "thank you" will suffice - no pictures, no boxes, and FFS, NO HTML. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 07:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For the past month or so, most of my talk page messages have been RfA thank-yous. My current talk page only consists of them. I appreciate the effort, and approve of their gratitude, but still I feel they clutter up my talk page and make me archive it faster. If recently created admins slowed down in thanking everyone who voted for them, I wouldn't particularly mind. JIP | Talk 07:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I promise not to post any thank you's if I'm ever made an admin. (^_-) --日本穣 Nihonjoe 07:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: JIP, your talk page is hilarious! Back when I became an administrator, only 20 or 30 people voted for me, so it was quite feasible to write individualized comments to each voter. Not everyone was doing it back then, but I wanted to. I think it was because I felt much closer to everyone then; the community was smaller and I was more familiar with the prolific editors. I felt everyone was happy I made it, sort of like a JV athlete who has just made it onto the varsity team, and I wanted to share it with everyone. I do think that thanking your voters is nice, but when it gets into the 80s and such it becomes quite difficult. If I somehow managed to get that much support, I suppose I might leave individual messages for those I felt close to, or who had left substantial comments or support, and so on. I definitely would not use an HTML box, and I definitely wouldn't list my final tally. And if it must be a copy-and-paste message, at least substitute the . I have things messages like "Thank you Knowledge Seeker/Archive7 for voting in my RFA" and such. — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of them are rather funny. I particularly like User:Samuel Blanning's one: an example is here.-gadfium 08:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that one's "wish I'd thought of that" great.  I'm so intimidated by the thank yous thing that I still haven't written any weeks later.  — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I have been collecting mine since I got my very first thank you: User talk:Lar/RFA 1. User User:NoSeptember is also collecting them at User:NoSeptember/RfA_thank_yous, but trying to get them all, not just the ones he received, in support of an administrative information page User:NoSeptember/Admin_user_pages... OK, so there are some people here who don't like getting thank yous? And some (like me) who appreciate them? One more thing to try to remember! Maybe we need a list somewhere of people who don't want to be thanked so new admins can avoid offending them?? (that suggestion is only about 23% serious...) Yeesh. ++Lar: t/c 11:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some people actually put 'please do not thank me for RFA votes' at the top of their talk pages. Until just recently the 'guide' said, "It is customary to thank all users that voted for you on their talk pages." That has now been extended to include, "...however this is not required, and some users do not welcome such messages." The disclaimer may help, but the 'custom' of sending these out has been established enough that it seems somewhat rude not to. If nothing else to let people know how it turned out so they don't have to track down the nom in the archives if they wanted to know. That said, it does get more difficult to personalize these as the Wiki-population increases and the vote counts go up. It took me all day with just minimal personalization (and none on the pages of people I don't know well / didn't have a response to their RFA comments). I pity CSCWEM if he decides he needs to send these out. :] --CBDunkerson 11:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The more determined people will always find a way; I can't recall who was sending them out, but I saw an edit summary like "RFA thank you (using AWB)" recently ;-) Kirill Lokshin 11:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I sent out fairly personalised text thank-yous (it did bump up my edit count a little bit, not that I suffer from edit-countitis or anything), and don't mind getting RfA thank-yous, although I much prefer normal text to all those pastel boxes. In response, I usually send out a congrats to the new admin. I wish mine was as funny as Sam Blanning's. I didn't know it was actually stated in the RfA page that it's customary to thank people: I just thought it was courtesy. Gosh-darn it, it took a while, though! --Deathphoenix ʕ 12:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: If mine goes through, there's no way in hell I can be bothered spamming 110+ user pages with thanks messages. Unless someone wants to make an RFA-thank-o-bot... anyone? Of course, that would make them even more impersonal than they already seem. I think I'll put a section on my talk page, and ask people to put their names there if they want to thank me for voting on their RFA. Proto||type 16:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see people using AWB for thank yous en masse more and more, so there's always that... --W.marsh 17:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh gosh, that's unnecessary. I only had around 60 votes, so it wasn't so bad (though it still took me a while to thank them). But even if it's courteous to thank people, I will hardly be insulted if people don't thank me for voting for them on an RfA, and I would never opt-in to a list saying that I want to be thanked for voting for their RfAs (which, I suppose, is the whole point). --Deathphoenix ʕ 17:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I sent out thank yous because it still seems to be the done thing, and in my case I did have a genuine reason to be grateful as I was promoted with a shorter tenure than average and good faith was definitely extended to me. I put a list of all my voters into my sandbox and sent the messages using AWB. I don't mind receiving "thank yous" as it helps me keep track of who has been promoted and adds a splash of colour to my talk page. That said, I don't feel very strongly about it either way and if the community leant towards it being "a bad thing" that's fine by me. --kingboyk 15:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: What would this accomplish? JoshuaZ 15:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Administrative thank-yous 

message: I want to start by saying that this is less about "fixing RfA" and more about informing candidates of RFA resources. This idea was just born out of actually reading the Guide to requests for adminship, which I didn't know about during my RfA, but which I now found to contain a lot of useful info. I think it would be better to more explicitly state this to be sure that RFA candidates know about it, in the form of a simple yes/no question: "Have you read Wikipedia:Guide to requests for adminship?" While a candidate can simply answer "yes" without reading it, at least it's stated there on the outset. Why do this when there is already a suggestion of reading it at the top of the WP:RFA page? When I was nominated, I didn't know about the guide, I just went in and answered my questions. Self-nominated candidates might be more likely to know about it, but maybe not. In any case, this is a very simple question, very easy to fake, but at least the candidate is explicitly made aware of the guide. --Deathphoenix ʕ 17:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to do RFA soon. (after I hit 3000 edits and 6 months). To get ready, about three months ago I made a check list of the site to make sure that I visited the entire WP. This included all of the policies/guidelines. As I went along, I began watching the policy changes that were suggested. After a while, I began making comments to the suggested policy and guidelines. This helps me feel confident about my knowledge of policy/guidelines. I think doing this was much more valuable than reading the guide right before starting RFA. FloNight talk 19:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: hahaha... that might fall into the "this is how we think RfA should be" part, who knows? --Deathphoenix ʕ 19:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sad you didn't know about it, since I actually copyedited it pretty heavily when it first went up and I also happened to nominate you. Youda thought I mighta been like pssst..... I guess I just assumed you'd know about it. Oh well, I think you turned out alright ;-) Ëvilphoenix Burn! 00:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure another member of the phoenix cabal would have done so eventually. ;-) --Deathphoenix ʕ 13:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to [[WP:GRFA]] in the RfA template?