Talk:Attempted schisms in the Baháʼí Faith

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081120062722/http://www.charlesmasonremey.net/1960_proclamation.htm to http://www.charlesmasonremey.net/1960_proclamation.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081120062722/http://www.charlesmasonremey.net/1960_proclamation.htm to http://www.charlesmasonremey.net/1960_proclamation.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081120062722/http://www.charlesmasonremey.net/1960_proclamation.htm to http://www.charlesmasonremey.net/1960_proclamation.htm
*Added  tag to http://www.library.jhu.edu/collections/specialcollections/manuscripts/msregisters/ms375.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081120062722/http://www.charlesmasonremey.net/1960_proclamation.htm to http://www.charlesmasonremey.net/1960_proclamation.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Regarding this edit, the phrase "twin pillars" was not in the reference, the reference was just a link to a book without page numbers, the reference was a primary source, not a reliable and neutral commentary, and also, the expansion that was being inserted was unrelated to that section and ruins the flow of ideas. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:13, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Twin pillars reference 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Joel Marangella which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 10:01, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: WP:external links says, 
Do any current entries in external links pass? I could discuss each one individually, but I don't think any would stay. This is a general page, so WP:ELOFFICIAL doesn't seem to apply. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I believe only these links do not qualify for EL - (1) Living Schools of Religion Vergilius Ferm, ed. Ames, Iowa: Littlefield, Adams & Co., 1956. Chapter 19, "The Baháʼí Cause," by Mirza Ahmad Sohrab (pages 309-14) (2) Mason Remey and Those Who Followed Him – Published by the Universal House of Justice, along with introductory statements. (3) Issues Related to the Study of the Baháʼí Faith – Extracts from letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice (4) From Gaslight to Dawn by Julie Chanler New History Foundation, NY 1956.Serv181920 (talk) 07:03, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: your edit has two glaring problems. You use a primary source to support a statement that is disputed by numerous secondary sources. So much disputed that I think WP:UNDUE applies here. Also, I don't even think it's technically accurate from the point of view of Remey. He made his announcement in 1960 and argued that the plans to elect the Universal House of Justice were wrong because he opposed it, believing himself to be Guardian. His argument was that if he were the Guardian, everyone had to do what he said, and he didn't want the election to happen. Another thing, we're dealing with the lead paragraphs, which should be summarizing the main points of the article, not going into detail. So even if you get a technically accurate wording with good  secondary sources, it may still not belong in the lead. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:49, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Will and Testament of Abdul Baha cannot be interpreted by anyone apart from the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. Your statement that "Mason Remey argued that the plans to elect the Universal House of Justice were wrong because he opposed it" is incorrect. The W&T of Abdul Baha rejects the appointment of UHJ without a Guardian being its head. Also just like our beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi was a spiritual son of Abdul Baha, Abdul Baha has called Mason Remey also his son (spiritual one) and hence after Shoghi Effendi, Mason Remey deserves to be the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.Asad29591 (talk) 15:19, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome to believe whatever delusions you want. Articles are written according to the core content policies. I suggest you read them and apply them if you want to make contributions that remain on Wikipedia. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:44, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

text: I am talking fact and with references and yes my articles are according to the core content policies of Wikipedia which I have already read.Asad29591 (talk) 17:37, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using primary sources 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved.   -- Vaulter 23:16, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Baháʼí divisions →  – As noted on the page, the Baha'i Faith has no major divisions or sects. Attempts at alternative leadership never exceeded 200 individuals and went extinct with time or remained with extremely small numbers. The mainstream Baha'i Faith has about 8 million followers. Changing the title from "divisions" to "attempted schisms" is a better reflection of the article contents. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 19:00, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 6 May 2022 

message: In the name change that was discussed April 2021 to May 2022, there seemed to be no perfect name for the page and editors settled on the current Attempted schisms in the Baha'i Faith in favor of the older Baha'i divisions. Other ideas were
*Baha'i leadership challenges
*Challenges to authority in the Baha'i Faith
*Successorship in the Baha'i Faith
*Opposition to leadership in the Baha'i Faith
*Disputes over succession in the Baháʼí Faith
*and variations of those.
As documented in the article, there have been about 12 attempts at alternative leadership. None of them have held more than maybe 200 supporters, and all of them declined over time. Almost all are defunct. Only 3 have held more than a small handful of followers. There is also the case of Shoghi Effendi's family who opposed him but had no alternative leadership. Most reliable sources describe the Baha'i Faith as united and without major schism. 
Thus, Baha'i divisions seemed to imply a weight to the schismatic groups that didn't reflect the article. Leadership challenges or challenges to authority or opposition to leadership are probably the most technically accurate but sound weird and are maybe not neutral. The succession ones sound weird and don't encompass some of the examples of opposition outside of succession. Attempted schisms seemed to be the best option, though it has a neutrality challenge.
Trident765 wrote above: 
There is an opposing concern that titling the article "Baha'i divisions" or "Baha'i schisms" would introduce its own incorrect POV. We're not talking about a minority schism. Let's set the extremely low bar of membership of 20 people. There is only one schismatic group currently active that has been documented to meet that threshold by reliable sources (and even so, it's mostly people guessing, not research data, and already dated). They are concentrated in the USA, where they self-reported about 40 members in 2007. There are more mainstream Baha'is in any major city in America. That is not a minority schism, it is an extreme minority that would not be notable if not for being the only example of a schism at all.
The definition of schism:  Calling them a schism implies that the two "parties" are strongly opposed or even remotely comparable in strength. Most Baha'is don't know anything about these attempted schisms and don't pay attention to them. They are not "parties" to a debate.
The neutrality challenge with the title of attempted schisms was acknowledged in the name change discussion. Here are some reliable sources that give context:
* (Demmrich 2007)
* (MacEoin 1988)
* (Warburg 2001)
* (Hartz 2009)
* (Smith 2000)
* (Momen & Smith 1989)
* (Momen 1995)
* (Balch 1997)
* (McMullen 2000)
* (Stockman 2013)
* (Stockman 2020)
I understand the complaint with the title but it is not easily fixed. If your proposal is to simply change it back to "Baha'i divisions" or similar, you need to address the problems I tried to note. If we change to "Baha'i schisms", then the threshold for inclusion would really only include Muhammad Ali and Mason Remey. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schism or attempted schism?