Talk:Languedoc-Roussillon wine

message: I see the Joseph book got moved to "further reading" even though I used parenthetical citations in a few spots in the body of the article.  Is this normally how Harvard referencing gets treated on wikipedia?  Should I convert to the endnotes like Agne's using?  --mroconnell 21:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eeep! Ryan, I'm sorry. I didn't realize those were your citations. Harvard referencing is accepted but the    footnote style is preferred due to its versatility and ease of page navigation. WP:CITE has more info but again, Harvard is fine. AgneCheese/Wine 07:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: I've corrected the geo location to "south of France" - because that's where it is! - but reading this and other Languedoc articles, I'm still unclear as to the actual boundaries of the wine-producing region. In these WPR articles we should provide a map, I think. Thing is, I'm not sure which map to use...--mikaul 08:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh a map would be very nice as would the pictures. AgneCheese/Wine 18:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty confusing.  When I ask my neighbors (in the Languedoc) where the region starts and ends, they all give me different answers.  The Languedoc is the northern part of the Languedoc-Roussillon department of today's France.  But a lot of the literature mentions the Languedoc as a historical region which is JUST Pays d'Oc / Occitania.  The pictures you have of the swath of coastal land near the Spanish border are technically of the Roussillon half of the Languedoc-Roussillon (I think).  However, when people use the term Roussillon by itself, they're usually referring to the historic region of Roussillon which is actually more westward and now referred to as the Pyrénées-Orientales department or somesuch.  But Languedoc-Roussillon wines are really closely related in the language these days because it's one region and separating them is sort of unnecessary, as far as I can tell.  If you put in a picture of a Perpignan vineyard in the Languedoc-Roussillon (like you did), it would be swell for this article.  I'll also upload a picture of my vineyard, but I don't know if it's okay to post my own stuff like that.  I can post pictures of my wine bottles too.  Is that okay? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mroconnell (talk • contribs) 13:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd say yes, go ahead and post some up, were a bit short of pics here. It's non-NPOV which would be a problem, rather than vested interests...just don't caption them with "Languedoc's most fab wine (producer)" and I for one will turn a blind eye ;) I should re-caption that pic with the mountains, as it wasn't strictly speaking near Perpignan - that was just the nearest major city. It was taken in the west of the region on the outskirts of a village called Forques, which seems more like the "Pyrénées-Orientales department" you refer to. mikaul 18:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Location

message: Three more days are left in the Wine Improvement Drive on this article. The biggest need that I see is the loving attention of a copy editor's touch. I also think some work could be done on eliminating the red links in the article with hopefully "start level" articles. While not a GA-requirement per se, the absence of red links does help in the overall informativeness of the article since the reader will be able to click on any link that they don't know about and get at least a basic amount of information on that. Some pictures of the actual wine are always helpful. I snapped a few of the bottles that I recently tried but my photography skills are far from stellar. AgneCheese/Wine 18:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 more days left 

message: Is there a wine region infobox we could use here? I'm also wondering if the map, currently in the Geography section, should maybe be at the top of the page, though it's reasonably ok where it is. mikaul 11:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox?

message: I have assessed this article according to the GA criteria. There are a few things that need to be fixed before I'll pass it.
#"Languedoc wine (often labeled Vin de Pays d'Oc) is produced in the south of France." Do you mean it is produced south of France or in the southern part of France? You may want to clarify to not confuse some readers into thinking grapes are grown in the ocean.
#(done)"During the advent of the Industrial Age in the late 19th century, production shifted towards mass produced le gros rouge-cheap red wine that could satisfy the growing work force." I think a larger hyphen should be used in between rouge and cheap (use —).
#(done)In the Climate and geography section, the image's caption should be vineyard not vinyard. Also, add a description underneath the image of France.
#(done)"In Dec 2006, the French government responded to global warming concerns and relaxed some of the irrigation regulations.[8]" Don't abbreviate, just write out December.
#(done)According to the Method of Style, the heading should only have the first main word capitalized, so "Wines and Taxonomy" should be "Wines and taxonomy".
Add inline citations for:
#'(done-MacNeil ref)Despite the general reputation as a mass producer and a consensus that the region is in the midst of an economic crisis, parts of the Languedoc wine industry are experiencing commercial success due to outside investment and an increased focus on quality.
#'(done)Sales have been improved by many vineyards that concentrate on creating a good brand name rather than relying on the sometimes infamous regional designations.
#'(done-MacNeil ref)"Younger appellations like the Cabardes and subregions like Minervois la Liviniere are much smaller in scope (Joseph 2005:191)." Convert this into a similar reference tag like the others on the article. Look to WP:CITET if you need a better citation template.
Altogether, a well-written article with plenty of information and free images. Fix the above suggestions within seven days and I'll pass the article. Let me know if you have any questions or when you're done on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 22:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would second this. This is quite a common descriptor. I'm not sure this is much confusion with "THE south of France" to mean "south OF France". AgneCheese/Wine 07:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I figured it might be less confusing to call it "southern France", if that's not too vague. mikaul 07:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA on hold

message: Regarding 1, I think the term the south of France is used quite a bit and that it's ok.--Charleenmerced  Talk 23:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would second this. This is quite a common descriptor. I'm not sure this is much confusion with "THE south of France" to mean "south OF France". AgneCheese/Wine 07:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I figured it might be less confusing to call it "southern France", if that's not too vague. mikaul 07:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on suggestions

message: I have passed this article according to the GA criteria. Concerning the first point about the south aspect, I was kidding more than seriously suggesting it should be changed. If you guys think it should remain as it was, then go ahead and change it. I just thought a small margin or readers might get confused (possibly younger readers, but then again, why are they reading about a wine article?). Also, with the new references you just added, be sure to fix the spacing so it goes directly after the punctuation, just like it is throughout the rest of the article. Anyway, good job on completing all of these so quickly, the article looks very good. I see that you're currently getting a peer review, which will help you to see if there are other things that could be improved or expanded upon before taking it to FAC. I read one of your WP newsletters, so I congratulate you on getting a new GA for your project. If you have the time, please consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help with the large backlog. Again, good job, and keep nominating articles! --Nehrams2020 20:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA passed

message: I must remind whoever who wrote
:"The area has around 700,000 acres..." 
...that in France just there is no such thing as acres. The suitable measurement unit complying with the SI, or Système international d'unités, in force in France, is the Hectare (or ha), and not the acre (sorry about that).
In fact, the use of acres will be banned in France and in the European Community from Jan 1, 2010 onwards. --AVM 20:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies. Acres is what my source listed them as. I am not familiar with the conversion but if any is, I'm sure it wouldn't be pushing the original research envelop to include the hectare conversion in parenthesis next to acres. I would still keep acres in though since, again, that is how the source citation list them. AgneCheese/Wine 20:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Acres?

message: 1) intro: Languedoc and vin de pays d'oc are not the same. The Languedoc spans a larger area as it also contains AOC regulated wines (Coteaux du Languedoc, Corbières, Pic-St-Loup, Coteaux de Gers, ...)
2) vin de pays allows for a good deal of experimentation (irrigation, varietalwines, alcohol-reduced wines,...) and it is exactly that what some younger winegrowers are doing with more or less success
3) 'vin ordinaire' does not exist, it is 'vin de table'. But then again, I'm quite sure that most of the wines are 'vin de pays'.
:Re. points 1 & 2: maybe these distinctions should be a little clearer in the lead section, but they are clarified to an extent here, further down the page, if not in so much detail. It's more important to get the "gist" of the article across in the lead than be unequivocal on specific details. Your third point is true of French (and (Spanish, and Italian) wines in general, since the introduction of EU-wide QWPSR classification. Again, it could do with clarifying further. Maybe someone else could comment? I'd certainly be inclined to add in any missing AOCs (Pic-St-Loup, Coteaux de Gers) and more, if you have them and can reference them. mikaultalk 07:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some improvements 

message: This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, OhanaUnitedTalk page 07:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Sweeps (Pass) 

message: Although this article is called "Languedoc wine" it is quite obvious that it in fact is an article on the entire Languedoc-Roussillon wine region, since it refers to the List of appellations in Languedoc-Roussillon and discusses appellations such as Banyuls AOC, which is situated in Roussillon rather than Languedoc. Perhaps some people refers to Languedoc-Roussillon wine colloquially as "Languedoc wine" because the full name is a bit long, but it is not a correct name for the region. (Compare this widely used website about French wine, as an example.) Slightly interesting to see that the article is a WP:GA despite this lack of consistency. I therefore propose to rename the article, either to Languedoc-Roussillon wine or Languedoc-Roussillon (wine region) and to rewrite the intro. Tomas e (talk) 20:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, when I first worked on this article I went with the more colloquial "Languedoc wine" as Roussillon is often (probably unfairly) grouped together. However, I would not object to the name change since it is technically more proper. AgneCheese/Wine 04:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languedoc or Languedoc-Roussillon? 

message: While I agree that this section can be updated, the recent edits to that section had some significant issues that need to be addressed. I reverted back to the sourced version. Feel free to update but please....1.) Use a verifiable source. If it is a magazine, we need publisher information. If it is a website we need links. If it is a book, ISBN numbers, etc. While not an absolute requirement, English language sources would be a huge plus. Despite several searches, I could not find a reference to the "InterRhone Communication" much less to the particular issue date 2.) The entire section needs to be sourced and avoid POV/weasel words. Following the "InterRhone" source there was some POV interjection and weasel wording about people (who?) ignoring facts and spreading unreliable information etc. The next preceding footnote was Karen MacNeil's Wine Bible which certainly doesn't source that. 3.) The blanket removal of the World Atlas of Wine link also caused a fracture ref link for the preceding usages of that ref. Some refs are used to support multiple claims in the article so they should be removed with caution. Again, I have no problem with this section being updated with current and verifiable reliable sources and I applaud the initiative to do so. However, especially with a GA-listed article, there needs to be care taken to make sure that our revisions do not violate Wikipedia policies and cause disruption to other references. AgneCheese/Wine 07:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out a discussion about source I had with the editor at User talk:Kudpung#AOC additions to the Rhône wine region and User talk:Tomas_e#CdN, we now have the source. The editor really made an effort to locate a source for when and how the change took place, which is not found in the OCW article. I then found additional publications from INAO. My attempt at understanding how authorative decisions are made on how AOCs are moved between wine regions is reflected in the current version of Costières de Nîmes AOC#Change of name and regional affiliation. As you can see, I judged that the date of INAO's offical publication was more correct than claims from a growers' organisation. I'll try bring the text here more in line with the Costières de Nîmes article. Tomas e (talk) 08:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

text: ...and with a 2004 formal change, it makes it logical that my 2001 edition of World Atlas of Wine shows Costières de Nîmes as Eastern Languedoc, while my 2006 edition of OCW says that it's now in Rhône. Presumably, the 2005 edition of World Atlas of Wine (used as a source in the article, but which I don't have) was not updated in time. Tomas e (talk) 15:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The new edits look good. Thanks for the leg work. AgneCheese/Wine 16:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Correction...we still have the broken ref link due to the blanket deletion of the World Atlas of wine. But I will take a look at this. Again, I urge caution when deleting references like this. AgneCheese/Wine 16:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Costières de Nîmes

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