Talk:Rioplatense Spanish

message: THERE ARE NO SPANISH DIALECTS EXEPT LUNFARDO. American English is not a dialect and British English is not a dialect, nor is Australian.
That one who wrote the article is a beast that Doesn't know a word about Spanish.
:The author is probably going to pop up soon to answer that, but in the meantime, I'm one of the main contributors, and all I can say is:
:#Please be polite;
:#Try to understand what dialect means;
:#Soy argentino, hablo en dialecto rioplatense, y no soy una bestia;
:#Please sign your messages.
:--Pablo D. Flores 00:58, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW I wouldn't say that lunfardo qualifies as a dialect. Ejrrjs | What? 01:26, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dialects

message: Regarding the statement that "Residents of Spain tend to note such Italian intonation more easily than people from nearby regions", I would have thought that Rioplatense's Italian intonation would be quite evident for all Spanish-speakers; it is to me, and I'm Mexican. I don't know, but in my opinion the quoted statement adds little value to the article.--Agurza 22:31, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mine too. It would be better to have some serious study on intonation patterns in Rioplatense, if such a thing has been done at all. The statement about intonation looks rather subjective and dubious prima facie, and it's also false (for a Mexican speaker at least). Myself, I'd never thought of my dialect as having an "Italian intonation"; I don't really know what that is (any Italians around?). --Pablo D. Flores 01:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I've been mistaken for an Italian in SF, NY and Marbella. Does it count? Ejrrjs | What? 07:57, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Couldn't help it and commented the whole section out. I'd like to have an informal vote from the other editors on whether this section should be excised. However, there's something to say about the general feeling of the Rioplatense accent, so non-RP-speakers, please say something. I'm under the impression that other Spanish speakers hear RP as more fluid than other dialects; that must be because of the s-aspiration/elision, the very idiosyncratic loss of final r in verb infinitives, and other elisions, which give a consonant-vowel CVCVCV... soft rhythm or je ne sais quoi to the dialect. I find Mexican Spanish sounds much more consonantic and stress-timed, and Castilian a bit rough, probably due to the conspicuous dental fricative and the guttural quality of /x/ (which stays velar [x] before front vowels, or even uvular, where RP and others have a palatal allophone [ç]). What say you? --Pablo D. Flores 02:37, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was once talking to two Spanish girls (ok, it was in a disco and it was loud) and they though I was an Italian who learned Spanish (yes, I know, they had an ice-cream on their forehead...) Mariano(t/c) 08:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian Intonation 

message: Regarding the issue of the final -s in the preterite... What do you call it? Is it a remnant of the Spanish vosotros form, formed in the same way as other forms? Or is it hypercorrection? I'd like to know what (sub)dialects feature it. I have the impression that it's much more common, say, in Buenos Aires than it is in Rosario (where it sounds distinctively affected). --Pablo D. Flores 15:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you. "Agarrenlón" or "Agarrelón" is just another example of something that has nothing to do with vosotros. I believe this is just another cultural variation. -Mariano 15:29, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I always thought that constructions like perdistes were wrong. It is common in Buenos Aires, but in the higher classes, don't know why (maybe it's their way to add some popular flavour to their talk... if that is the case, is rather dull)--Jfa 15:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "perdistes is only used by unlearned and ignorant pepople so you can't talk about that as if it was a common way of talking. As there are no spanish dialects i'll replace it, if no one complaints - Argentino 21:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perdistes? 

message: I've reverted (twice) the additions by  claiming that Rioplatense is spoken in Nicaragua and Costa Rica. The second time, this user added some arguments about immigration and relationship between the countries that seem rather inconsequential, at the very least. I've left a note on the user's talk page. If you're reading this, please raise the issue here; do not edit the article directly to reflect your personal view of the matter. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:56, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't think so. Been there, no Rioplatense Spanish. Only some limited voseo, specially in Costa Rica and Guatemala. Mariano(t/c) 09:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicaragua and Costa Rica? 

message: Maybe I'm misunderstanding the phonetics terms but it seems like the article implies the exact opposite of what it should when it comes to the LL sound which, from my limited experience with speakers of the argentinian dialect, its most pronounced feature. The "normal" (castillian?) pronounciation of the word calle in english is pronounced as 'cai-yay' but in argentinian it is 'cai-jay.' (perhaps a little softer then english jay, more like the j sound in french 'jean') The article seems to make a big deal of giving the opposite message. Someone please correct me if i'm wrong here.
--Cptbuck 07:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article says two things: one, that Rioplatense has yeísmo: "ll" and "y" are pronounced the same. This is very common; probably most dialects of modern Spanish have it. But each dialect has a different pronunciation for this "ll/y". In most cases it's a palatal sound, like "ll" and "y" are historically supposed to be; but in Rioplatense (this is the second thing) it is postalveolar, either voiced (French jour) or voiceless (English sure) but not so markedly fricative. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 12:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The French j was usually used by Barrio Norte ladies, and the sh sound by hairdressers and dance teachers. Most people used something like the Turkish c (slightly softer than the j in jam or the g in giant). But I'd say there is a slide towards the sh sound, at least in Buenos Aires... some journalists have written Bayar for "Bashar", etc. elpincha 20:00, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW I pronounce it like sh. The voiced version sounds definitely affected. I'll see if I can get some published research about that (which I doubt). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ja! and sh sounds like a little old lady of the Round Ones. I'd love to see statistics (I'm not denying it is happening) User:Ejrrjs  says What? 11:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Mind you, this is Rosario, not BA. Some people over here claim they can spot a porteño after two or three words; I can't. ;) It's definitely not the same sh as in English, but I'd say it's voiceless. Voiced zh rings very much affected, upper-classy. María Julia Alsogaray, you know? She did such a strange thing with her ll/y that she almost turned it into a voiced sibilant trill (like the supposedly most difficult sound in the world, ř). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm from in-between...and my wife is always kidding me about dropping the final 's' (mahomenoh) This is the only difference I can spot in the speech of my friends from Rosario User:Ejrrjs  says What? 11:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Many people (including Alejandro Dolina and yours truly) find the sh sound very ugly. It is also very alien to people from, say, Venezuela or Cuba. No self-respecting tango singer, before the 1980s, would pronounce calle as cashe (and then Guillermito Fernández came along...) Listen to Sosa and Rivero for a standard BsAs pronunciation circa mid-century. elpincha 19:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: My understanding is that the affricate/fricative difference is allophonic: at the beginning of words it is an affricate, within words (especially between vowels) it is a fricative. See Yeísmo#Pronunciation and Spanish phonology#Consonants. In many dialects, it is [ɟ͡ʝ] vs. [ʝ], in older Rioplatense, it is [d͡ʒ] vs. [ʒ] and in newer Rioplatense it is [t͡ʃ] vs. [ʃ], but I believe the Rioplatense phones are actually palatalised ("soft"), i. e. more like [ʃʲ] (or perhaps even [ɕ]), similar to Russian Shcha; at least that's the way they sound to me, although the perceived "softness" could also be because unlike German (and English) /ʃ/, there is no labialisation (lip-rounding) here. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  LL sound 

message: Yo ya sabía cuando escribí mi mensaje que no valía la pena.  Adiós, y que se quede feliz, Sr. Flores, en su ignorancia.--70.146.2.8 20:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, since not everyone who reads this talk page also reads Spanish, the above means "I already knew when I wrote my message that it wasn't worth it. Goodbye, and stay happy, Mr. Flores, in your ignorance." It's true that it's not worth it, really... maybe I'm having a bad day or maybe it's the heat over here, but I don't feel like being personally insulted. 70.146.2.8 or Gerald Young or whatever your name is, my ignorance is vast, but that is remedied a bit every time I converse in good terms with any of the knowledgeable people here in Wikipedia or elsewhere who can teach me. The one who leaves willingly in ignorance this time is you. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 20:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  No vale la pena 

message: I don't know, but Si te querés ir, andate. Yo no te voy a parar. sounds more natural to me... User:Ejrrjs  says What? 23:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't feel either of them more natural than the other. Feel free to change it, though I'd choose my version because it shows word-medial r-elision. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See? there had to be a reason. Regards, User:Ejrrjs  says What? 20:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please enlighten me on word-medial r-elision. I'm a native speaker of uptown Lima Spanish with only partial knowledge of the intricacies of Rioplatense Spanish. Thank you. --Rcgy 17:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Si querés irte, andate. Yo no te voy a parar. 

message: Word-final Rioplatense clitics receive stress in a manner that is very different from the other Latin American dialects, making them sound as if they were free morphemes -- does anyone know anything about this phenomenon? I just know from having grown up next to Argentinian neighbors and watching Argentinian shows for decades: What in my Lima dialect I would pronounce as cállate /káyate/ is pronounced callá té /kashá/ + /te/ and this stress pattern holds for all suffixed personal pronouns in the infinitive and imperative (i.e. tenseless) conjugations. It'd be interesting to see if there is research out there that shows the dialect's clitics have been transformed into "free" pronouns that simply change place but are not suffixed as they are in the majority of Spanish dialects. I'm gonna look into it but if anyone knows more about this than I do please enlighten me :) --Rcgy 15:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the example you gave, only the stress is shifted. It's true that sometimes a secondary stress appears over the pronoun (dígame becomes /ˈdigaˌme/ or even /ˌdigaˈme/), but the pronoun is still a clitic; just as in other dialects, you can't move it around or place anything between the verb and the pronoun (it's dígame eso or dígame eso a mí, never *diga eso me). —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excelent! Thank you very much for your insight; it makes perfect sense and is very helpful. One more question, if I may: Could the stress shift be a warning sign of sorts that Rioplatense clitics are "on their way" to becoming free pronouns? Cf. the velarization of word-final alveolar nasals (/n/ --> /ng/) in many dialects of Spanish as a warning sign of impending absorption into the preceding vowel; French underwent a similar velarization of syllable-final alveolar nasals, the precursors of which can still be heard in some of the southern dialects. I just wonder if maybe one day we'll begin hearing a felicitous ¡Decí rápido me! or ¡Callá por favor te! here and there in Porteño Spanish. --Rcgy 17:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not completely sure if I'm correct about this, but I believe that the difference in stress in your example cállate [ˡkɑɪ.jə.te] and callate [kaɪ.ˡʒɑ.te] is due to the fact that these verbs are being conjugated by different subject pronouns.  The R.A.E. shows  (and we hispanohablantes know from experience) that tú conjugates callar in the imperative mode as calla [ˡkɑɪ.jə] and vos conjugates callar in imperative mode as callá [kaɪ.ˡʒɑ], tag the pronouns on the end, and we have the change in stress accounted for without supposing anything more complex. J Crow 21:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rioplatense clitics as free pronouns? 

message: I've restored the link to the Argentine slang dictionary (which was deleted here because the link was dead). I'm letting it be known because, as some of the editors of this page know, it is my dictionary (it was on a borrowed domain that somebody forgot to renew). I wasn't the one to link to it in the first place, but I guess it is useful, so I uploaded it again. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argentine slang dictionary 

message: The first line of the article says "castellano rioplatense" but omits "español rioplatense". In this case, the more adequate term should be the one used in the regions where Rioplatense is spoken. Many teachers would say "castellano", others "español", others that they are synonyms, and a small minority that the RAE oficially describes the language as "español". But at least here in Montevideo, people would never say "la extranjera que vino ayer no habla castellano" but "la extranjera que vino ayer no habla español". Here, most people knows that word but never uses it. Would someone explain how it is in Colonia, Paysandú, Capital, Gran Buenos Aires, Rosario, Santa Fe or elsewhere? -- NaBUru38 19:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't know in Uruguay Español was prefered. In Buenos Aires (and I would say also in Rosario) Castellano is far more common. Perhaps adding the Español Rioplatense as a possible name should be enough. Mariano(t/c) 08:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The ''castellano'' vs. ''español'' thing 

message: - Espero que veas or Espero que veas "I hope you can see" (Peninsular veáis)  
A diacritic is missing, or else there is no difference beetween both examples.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.96.66.41 (talk) 17:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tú and vos in Uruguay 

message: I see one is immediately redirected to this page when one enters "Argentine Spanish". But as it seems, Rioplatense is only the variant of some parts of Argentina...what about the rest of the country? What accent zone do these regions fit into? LightPhoenix (talk) 10:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue remains open. Why isn't there an article Argentine Spanish? Every other Spanish-speaking country in the Americas has an article dedicated to its peculiar type(s) of Spanish (for better or worse, given that linguistic boundaries rarely coincide with political ones). They do not redirect you to an article that discusses only the language of the capital city and environs. There is literature on this. For example Canfield (1981:23-27) and Lipski (1994:162-181) both recount the history of Argentina's settlement—Buenos Aires from Spain (porteños), and the west and northwest from the direction of Peru and Chile (cuyanos), with different linguistic results. Canfield includes three maps showing the distribution of s-aspiration, yeísmo, and r-assibilation. Lipski delineates six dialect zones in the country. At present there is no place in Wikipedia for this information to go.
*
*
Kotabatubara (talk) 19:47, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Rest of Argentina?

message: This article continues the INSANE Wikipedia delusion that there are "dialects" of Spanish.  While the technical trivial differences in expression so painstakingly detailed in the text may be interesting, if you speak Spanish from ANY part of the world, you can go to ANY part of Argentina, and if they are speaking Spanish, IT'S THE SAME LANGUAGE!  Perfectly understandable, even if you call a peach something different, it's only a regional idiosyncratic term, and wouldn't throw you off kilter any more than a Southern US person telling a person from Illinois that Jewfish is on the menu.  It only takes a second to learn that it's a Grouper, and it's not a dialect, for Pete's sake!  Someone needs to take control of this issue.  It's Wiki-wide, and it's wrong.  I know.  I'm from Puerto Rico, a native Spanish speaker, and I've been to numerous countries in Latin America, South America, and Spain.  IT'S ALL THE SAME LANGUAGE!  GEEZ! I've even had people here in the US argue with me!  They so authoritatively try to tell me that if I speak "Puerto Rican Spanish" I can't understand someone from Spain or Bolivia!  I can't talk them out of it!  (Probably because they've read it in Wikipedia). It's an ignorant contention, and I'm not sure what the genesis of it is.  Wikipedia should NOT be perpetuating this fiction.98.170.200.68 (talk) 05:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with the poster. I am a Spanish native speaker (Argentina) and he is correct. Italy has dialects. Napolitan is different from Italian. Rioplatense Spanish is not that different from Colombian Spanish. What is has is a different accent and some different words for a few everyday things. It is still the same language as in Spain or elsewhere and perfectly understandable. -- Alexf(talk) 11:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Sorry to correct you, Alexf, but Spanish is NOT the same in every country as you may think, partly because here in Argentina we use "vos sos" instead of "tú eres" or "vení" instead of "ven" or even "mirá" and "andá" instead of "ve" which is used for both the command form of "ir" and "ver" in all other countries, especially in the dubbing industry. Additionally, here in Argentina we say "pileta" for both "(swimming) pool" and "sink", while they are, respectively, "piscina" and "lavadero" in all other countries in the same way we say "pelotas" to mean both "male genitals" and "(foot)balls" while other countries may use "balones" for the second sense and "bolas" for the first as in, "¡Me tenés las pelotas llenas!" which is synonymous with when one, in English, says something like "You're pissing me off!" --Fandelasketchup (talk) 22:43, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Dialects" 

message: Given that Rioplatense Spanish is just a regional speech in Argentina, this article shouldn't be linked from Argentina infobox as representive of the whole of -or even the standard- Spanish spoken in Argentina. --IANVS (talk) 22:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This shouldn't be the direct link from Argentina infobox 

message: Why was the page title changed? First, it's nonsensical since "Castellane" is not even an English word. Second, it's totally inconsistent with the material inside the article (which uses, correctly, "Rioplatense Spanish"), but also with the wikipages in other languages (check the use in French, German, for instance). Can we please go back to the previous title, and changed accordingly all other associated links?Nordisk varg (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This was a bizarre move by a new user who doesn't appear to speak much English. The previous title should be restored immediately.Jeppiz (talk) 20:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A simple "undo" doesn't revert a moved page.  I just tried.  Let's see if I can go around it.--MartinezMD (talk) 20:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Alright, I tried a proper move but it is restricted.  Place a request with an admin.  Expect help soon enough.--MartinezMD (talk) 21:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I filed a requent at WP:ANIJeppiz (talk) 21:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: MartinezMD, your English grammar is very poor as you ommited the pronoun "it" after "tried". It should have been "I just tried it" or, even better, use the word "that", like this:"I just tried that". Please learn English grammar before posting another claim here. --Fandelasketchup (talk) 22:47, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Please notice this thread is ten years old and the move has already been undone before condemning other people's command of English here. Nardog (talk) 23:09, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please restore the previous title! 

message: In Argentina the "salchicha" is always a "salchicha", the "hot dog" is "pancho". So I've just changed the spanish word "salchicha" to "perro caliente", that is the used in Spain to say "hot dog".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.85.6.27 (talk) 00:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hot Dog 

message: The aspiration of the 's' between or at the end of words is a quite carachteristic feature for rioplatense speech, I know. But its use is not at all a near universal (as this article appears to suggest) nor the standard. In fact, for the majority of educated speakers it is just a purposefully idiosincratic exaggeration of the speech. I think that this article has to state the minority status of this linguistic feature. At least, I would like to see some sources backing the current attribution of a standard status for it. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 03:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Having no response here nor sources added to the article, I edited the mentioned paragraphs. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 02:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  'S' aspiration 

message: http://ar.answers.yahoo.com This Yahoo! Answers implementation does use Rioplatense Spanish :) Preguntá! Rispondé! Descubrí! I dunno if it's too much "advertising" to put this into the article, but whatever, it's very interesting! -andy 217.50.63.129 (talk) 18:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This might interest you guys! :) 

message: I added Mar del Plata to the list of locations in which Rioplatense Spanish mainly based. It is only 250 miles away from Buenos Aires and since its foundation shares almost evey aspect of Buenos Aires idiosyncrasy and customs. Even its name means Sea of Río de la Plata.
--190.178-y-lo-que-toque (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Little change 

message: In the Wikipedia page entitled "Languages of Argentina", the section on Spanish says that the pronunciation of "r" in Argentina is approximately like the sound "zh" found in the English word "viSIon". Should that be included in the page on "Rioplatense Spanish"?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.154.52 (talk) 16:56, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not true for Rioplatense Spanish but for Northwestern and Cuyano Spanish. The Spanish Wikipedia says: se asibilan las erres, en /rr /> [řř] (sonoramente), y /r/ inicial > [ř] Rioplatense Spanish retains the [rr]. Unoffensive text or character (talk) 09:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Argentine "r" 

message: You may want to comment on the influence of Rioplatense on other dialects and languages.
However I don't remember many examples:
* pibe and especially piba and pibita are used in modern Spanish slang.
* some Rioplatense words are found in Galician language but not in the Spanish of Spain. I think that bondi is an example.
I don't know if Che should be mentioned as well.
--Error (talk) 22:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influenced by Rioplatense 

message: I think we need to remove the "and some common instances of diphthong simplification" part from the Phonology section. The voseo forms such as querés are not simply 'modifications' (or 'simplifications') of the tuteo forms such as quieres. Here's what Voseo#Conjugation with vos says (and it's properly sourced): "All modern voseo declensions derive from Old Spanish second person plural -ades, -edes, -ides, and -odes (as in sodes, 'you are'). The 14th and 15th centuries saw an evolution of these declensions, with -ades originally giving -áis, -edes giving -és (or -ís), -ides giving -ís, and -odes giving -óis. Soon analogous forms -ás and -éis appeared." In this case, I don't think you can speak about any diphthong simplifications, unless they appear in other contexts. Either way, that sentence is not even sourced. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 17:25, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed it finally :v Erinius (talk) 12:34, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diphthong simplification 

message: Although Rioplatense seems to be much more commonly used than River Plate Spanish, I noticed that the latter occurs frequently in academic publications. So I added a sentence to the lede paragraph noting it as an alternate name. There was already a redirect in place. M.boli (talk) 16:47, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added mention of ''River Plate Spanish''