Talk:Liverpool Built-up Area

message: Which joker put Penzance as part of the Liverpool Urban Area? I'm now removing it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.131.216.63 (talk) 15:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penzance??? 

message: I know the last talk on this page is over a year ago but the person above may be having a joke over Penzance but was right to be facetious, as per the current talk on the Greater Liverpool talk page this is discussed again. Haydock and St Helens are included based on ONS yet do not include Maghull or even Kirkby or Halewood. Dmcm2008 (talk) 20:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "Liverpool Urban Area" is one which is used officially by the ONS to describe a precisely-defined area.  I agree that it's barking mad to include Haydock while simultaneously excluding Kirkby, but that's not the point: to paraphrase Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "Ours is not to reason why".  If you can find sources for your concept of a "Greater Liverpool" (or at least some examples of it being used, by press etc.), then please share them with us.  On the other hand, if you object violently to the ONS's definition, then by all means take that up with them.  --RFBailey (talk) 21:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A map showing the ONS definition is here. Yes it's mad, but there is a logic to it, based purely on the lack of physical bricks-and-mortar gaps between the Pier Head and Haydock. The way the ONS justify their approach to definition, from this, is as follows - "...the definition of an urban area is an extent of at least 20 hectares and at least 1,500 residents at the time of the 2001 Census. The starting point is the identification by OS (Ordnance Survey) of areas with land use which is irreversibly urban in character. This comprises  permanent structures and the land on which they are situated, including land enclosed by or closely associated with such structures; transportation corridors such as roads, railways and canals which have built up land on one or both sides, or which link built-up sites which are less than 200 metres apart; transportation features such as airports and operational airfields, railway yards, motorway service areas and car parks;  mine buildings, excluding mineral workings and quarries; and any area completely surrounded by builtup sites. Areas such as playing fields and golf courses are excluded unless completely surrounded by builtup sites. The prerequisite for the recognition of an urban area is that the area of urban land should extend for 20 hectares or more. Separate areas of urban land are linked if less than 200 metres apart. Land between built-up areas is not regarded as urban unless it satisfies one of the conditions listed above." Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I guessed it must have been something along those lines.  --RFBailey (talk) 22:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Greater Liverpool]]

message: Following this discussion, I have drafted a possible text of a merged article, here.  Comments welcome.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As things stand, as the person who wrote the page Greater Liverpool, I do not object to User Ghmyrtle revamped version above. The Sefton borough is quite unique as it can be split in to north and south and it is south Sefton that contains the wider Liverpool districts. It is not a made up split either, for example, South Sefton Magistrates Court. Regarding Prescot, in my opinion for what ever that is worth, Prescot can be in or out of the greater Liverpool / urban area including Whiston and Rainhill. I think for what it's worth I would argue the Liverpool postal code L1 to L36. Regarding ONS, they have sent me this link Definition of Urban area see page 7 which makes interesting reading. It still does not explain the reason for St Helens & Haydock which are less linked to Liverpool ie accent, sport, postcode & dialing code. When the existing urban area does not contain Kirkby and Maghull. Dmcm2008 (talk) 20:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason ONS include St. Helens and Haydock is simply that there are no open gaps of 200m or more between those places and Liverpool, so according to the ONS definition they are "linked" urban areas. The key point is in the second column of page 2 - "Separate areas of urban land are linked if less than 200 metres apart."  Issues such as accent, postcode etc. etc. are simply not among their criteria.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be so, nevertheless it goes to show the Liverpool Urban Area page is of a different definition to the 'greater'/wider Liverpool page, their criteria, so to speak, are different.Dmcm2008 (talk) 22:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are different definitions.  No, that doesn't mean there's a justification for two articles.  See Greater Bristol, for example, where there are many different definitions covered in a single article.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a fair point Dmcm2008 (talk) 08:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merger between [[Greater Liverpool]] and Liverpool Urban Area

message: I have two queries before I contemplate implementing any changes: Due to this page existing would it not be appropriate to improve its coverage by adding this page as a category to the Liverpool Urban area locations? And to put a spanner in the works after the merger, this Liverpool Urban Area page includes the assembling of 'greater Liverpool' so can this be used as a category with redirection for Urban Area for places such as Kirkby, Maghull or Halewood? Dmcm2008 (talk) 12:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: categories

message: I'm thinking of prodding Greater Merseyside for deletion. Anybody have any thoughts or concerns? The article is completely unsourced. --Jza84 |  Talk   01:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say perhaps do a merge rather than a prod, or at least use the article title as a plausible redirect term for Merseyside.  I'm not sure whether this page or Merseyside would be a suitable target, although I'm veering towards the latter.  --RFBailey (talk) 02:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I favour the renaming of Greater Merseyside as Liverpool City Region - compatibility with Manchester City Region is relevant here I think.  Some of the information clearly requires better sourcing, but not deletion.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I also disagree with a deletion and would prefer a merge to Merseyside. ColdmachineTalk 11:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greater Merseyside 

message: I am not sure how to do this; looking at Manchester's there are maps can anyone add a map to denote the Urban Area? Dmcm2008 (talk) 10:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: Dare I mention the Liverpool Travel to Work Area as being of potential use within the article? Fingerpuppet (talk) 12:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Travel to Work Areas

message: I have been reliably informed I incorrectly edited more information in the wrong place, ie existing text, therefore just to recap I have edited in additional response to user:Paypwip about the Saveaway map area C which covers more than Liverpool City Council but Merseytravel simply identify as 'Liverpool'. Hope this helps to discussionDmcm2008 (talk) 10:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merseytravel Saveaway Area C

message: In regards to "Greater Liverpool" I think you could only include those areas were you cannot define where Liverpool starts and ends. For instance without a road sign telling you would you know when you had crossed the boundary into say Bootle , Huyton, Cantril farm or even Halewood?? I think not, The reason being that the roads are one and the same. Half way down streets in these areas that invisible line does its invisible work! Then again why not just call them Liverpool as they are part of Liverpools geographical shape? and have all the satellite towns like Kirkby, Maghull, Whiston and Prescot etc as Greater Liverpool?
Haydock and other areas mentioned cannot even be remotley mistaken for what they are which is old Lanacastrian townships with little or no Liverpool influence.
==references==
I have added two references to verify Aintree and Port of Liverpool (prev MDHC) which both identify themselves as in Liverpool although they are in Sefton MBC and this can be an alternative point of view to User:Paypwik who advises Prescot etc may have a Liverpool postcode but do not use Liverpool in their address. The only other place I can think of that do not use Liverpool is Bootle and the Royal Mail include Netherton as Bootle, while the Borough of Knowsley insist on promoting Knowsley in all their official addresses, ie municipal offices, when Knowsley is not a city just a borough council. Do people say Liverpool, Liverpool or Litherland, Sefton, mostly I doubt it very much. Dmcm2008 (talk) 15:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but there's still no-one using the phrase "Greater Liverpool"!  Anywhere that self-refers as simply "Liverpool" should be mentioned in the Liverpool article.  Fingerpuppet (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In all honesty I quite agree, perhaps the greater Liverpool term is not often used however i feel the moment I would open up an article and debate DIRECTLY linking places like Huyton or Kirkby to Liverpool, as opposed to saying greater Liverpool or (saying wider Liverpool), there would be an outcry. The almighty would have me castigated Dmcm2008 (talk) 17:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Greater Liverpool in perspective

message: I have added two references to verify Aintree and Port of Liverpool (prev MDHC) which both identify themselves as in Liverpool although they are in Sefton MBC and this can be an alternative point of view to User:Paypwik who advises Prescot etc may have a Liverpool postcode but do not use Liverpool in their address. The only other place I can think of that do not use Liverpool is Bootle and the Royal Mail include Netherton as Bootle, while the Borough of Knowsley insist on promoting Knowsley in all their official addresses, ie municipal offices, when Knowsley is not a city just a borough council. Do people say Liverpool, Liverpool or Litherland, Sefton, mostly I doubt it very much. Dmcm2008 (talk) 15:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but there's still no-one using the phrase "Greater Liverpool"!  Anywhere that self-refers as simply "Liverpool" should be mentioned in the Liverpool article.  Fingerpuppet (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In all honesty I quite agree, perhaps the greater Liverpool term is not often used however i feel the moment I would open up an article and debate DIRECTLY linking places like Huyton or Kirkby to Liverpool, as opposed to saying greater Liverpool or (saying wider Liverpool), there would be an outcry. The almighty would have me castigated Dmcm2008 (talk) 17:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: references

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thread_title:  External links modified