Talk:History of Albania

message: About the external links. The first one is a collection of materials which also contains material in English. The second one is a thorough histiry, but it ends with the year 1912. Andres 12:56, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I just figured they were interesting and pertinent links. I can't really vouch for all the info in there as to being accurate or complete. --Dori 13:41, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, of course, they are good sources. What concerns me is that their characterizations should be more accurate, but I am not sure about how they should be formulated. I think for the first one it is not right to say that it is a comprehensive history. And it is important to know that it also contains material in English. If you just say it's in Albanian most people won't look at it. And the second one is comprehensive except for the recent history, I think it's important to mentuin this. I hoped to find information about the original name of the National Liberation Front but there wasn't any. Andres 14:00, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh, I see. When I looked at it, they seemed to contain just info in Albanian, and there was lots of it, so I just called it comprehensive :) You can change the wording if you want, I realize they're not completely comprehensive. --Dori 14:06, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: external links

message: These section is highly delusive.
Firstly, the last mention of Illyrians, and these were Romanized Illyrians that lived in Roman empire for more than 300 years, are made in 4th c. AD. The first mention of Albanians is in 11th and than in 12th c. The gap between these two dates is at least 600 years wide and in these 600 years no one mentions any “Albanians” surviving. Not to mention that it would be logical if Albanoi tribe survived to continue calling themselves Albanoi and not to change their name to Shquip… 
Secondly, Albanian language has SOME traces of pre-Roman substrates, although it is very much disputed weather this is closer to Thracian or to Illyrian (and this is because there are no remains of Illyrian or Thracian language longer than a few words – which tells us about radical Romanization and Helenization processes mentioned above!). But these remains are found also in other Balkan languages such as Bulgarian or Serbian. The language was therefore very much altered, one would say even beyond recognition. One of the facts that tells us vivdly about it is that ancient Illyrians were skilled sailors yet almost all the words about sea and seafaring in Albanian language are of Roman, Greek or Slavic origin. That much on intactness. 
I’m not saying that Albanian language and Albanians have no connections with Illyrians (and for that matter with Dardanians and Thracians), they do, but these are very scarce. It is a Balkan mythomania to have roots in Antiquity, therefore Bulgarians are Thracians, Romanians Dacians, Macedonians are descendants of Philip of Macedon and Alexander the Great and Albanians of Illyrians. Yeah, right! In that way Anatolians may claim that they are Galatians and Moroccans – Carthaginians! Bollocks. This is a historical logic from dark ages: just rename modern day inhabitants with the name of the ancient people that dwelled there and – voila! History is a bit complicated than that, even in encyclopedias, and therefore someone should use far less certain claims on such shaky subjects such as origins of peoples! --Dultz 01:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of Albanians 

message: Born in Illyricum---was the town he was born in (near Skopje, in what was at least for a time the Roman province of Macedonia) incorporated in the province of Macedonia or Illyricum? I lean towards Macedonia, but I'm not sure. Anyway, there is absolutely no indication that he spoke Albanian--historical sources say his family spoke Latin. Alexander 007 07:49, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Emperor Constantine and Justinian were born in Nis, which is above the Greek border in the Jireček Line, actually I assume they were Thracians and Illyrian mixture since they were from Dardania. Both were native Latin speakers and Justinian was especially known for his terrible skills in Greek, have you read historical mentions on him? Nobody says they spoke Albanian as there was no such thing then, but it is safe to say they spoke the closest thing then since Albanian is said to be a "Daco-Moesian" language( No surprise as the Albanoi tribe was very like part of the dardani). The link between Albs and Illyrian is more then just a hypothesis. Considering the fact that it overshadows everything else, including the Thrakian theory. According to a neutral position, Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians since no other theory has more ground.  Plus, learn not to advise. You do not have any power on this encyclopedia, as you are just another member here. -- Tpilkati 18:28, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emperor Justinian 

message: Here are some interesting quotes from an encyclopedia article:
“Even more important than forceful resettlement and ethnic migration was the Islamization of certain population groups, mainly in Bosnia, Albania, the Rhodope massif, and Crete. The period of Islamization was not the same everywhere. In Bosnia, the process developed predominantly in the period 1463–1600, while in Albania and on Crete the critical years were in the second half of the seventeenth century. In 1468 in Bosnia less than one percent of the population was Muslim; by about 1600 71 percent had been converted.
“In Albania, it is clear that the state was interested and directly involved in conversion. This happened especially during the second part of the seventeenth century when the Ottomans tried, through conversion, to suppress the Venetian reconquest of parts of Albania and Greece and to create a Muslim shield from northern Albania to Bosnia in order to halt possible Habsburg intrusions. The Ottoman archival data show how the central and local administration extended gifts in kind, objects, and money to the converts—certainly an incentive to conversion. Chronicles by Ibrahim Peçevi (d. 1649) and travel accounts by Evliya Çelebi (d. after 1683) preserved reports of sporadic violence, especially in the big cities, which would end with the conversion of individuals or groups of people.”
“In addition to converts proper, there were communities of pseudoconverts or half-converts who kept their previous beliefs and customs, while adopting some Islamic ones. Many such communities were still alive in the mountains of northern Albania at the end of the nineteenth century.”
“The Ottomans allowed non-Muslim communities to regulate their own internal religious affairs. What the Ottoman state was interested in were the taxes these communities were obliged to pay to the state treasury. The paying of these taxes was regulated in the form of long-term and short-term tax farms, and non-Muslim religious leaders were considered, from the point of view of the Ottoman administration, as tax farmers of the state revenues. A newly appointed Christian or Jewish religious leader was expected to pay an investiture fee for the diploma he was issued by the imperial council and to render yearly taxes to the state treasury in the name of the community. On the other hand, as a member of the ruling Ottoman military class, he could ride a horse, carry weapons publicly, and have personal armored guards, and he was also entitled to collect taxes from his flock for his own needs and those of his office.
The Ottoman authorities assisted these leaders in tax collecting. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the patriarch of Istanbul, for instance, asked the Imperial Council to assign him a number of Ottoman soldiers to help him while he was touring his dioceses in order to collect taxes. When the Serbian Patriarch Arsenije III Carnojevic was on his pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 1680s, he was accompanied by a guard of four hundred mounted warriors.
The Greek Orthodox patriarchate continued its work immediately after the conquest of Constantinople. In 1557 the Serbian patriarchate, abolished in 1459 after the conquest of the despotate of Serbia, was reestablished. The first Serbian patriarch after its reestablishment was Makarije Sokolovic, a close cousin or, according to some reports, brother of the future grand vizier Sokollu Mehmed Pasha (d. 1579), and the reestablishment of this institution would not have been possible were it not for Mehmed Pasha's intercession.
Tensions between lay and religious leaders of non-Muslim communities were especially noticeable among Greeks and Serbs. The conflicts between local church boards, led by lay notables, and patriarchs, archbishops, and bishops took place daily. These conflicts were mostly over the control of the revenues of the church and church taxes, and how they were assessed.”
SOURCE:
FILIPOVIC, NENAD. "Balkans." Europe, 1450 to 1789: Encyclopedia of the Early Modern World. Ed. Jonathan Dewald. Vol. 1. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 2004. 191-201. 6 vols. Gale Virtual Reference Library. 28 December 2004
Also, an essay by Antonina Zhelyazkova would be enlightening:
http://www.omda.bg/imir/studies/alban_id18.html
this is an open site, add whatever you wish to add. There is nothing wrong with this. Tpilkati 19:10, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamization of Albanians 

message: Delating without disscusing it here first is not the right way to go... I basicly quoted Britannica,  From the mid-3rd to the mid-4th century AD the reins of the empire were almost continuously in the hands of emperors of Illyrian origin: Gaius Decius, Claudius Gothicus, Aurelian, Probus, Diocletian, and Constantine the Great.... This information are taken from actual scholars and current scholarly references, so, they are legitimate (whether right or wrong about the origin) and so they can be used, and they will remain in the article according to policy. Albanau 03:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miskin 

message: Where is the history of the Serbian Empire??? It is missing, and this is is a very important period of Albanian history, since harsh centralization of the government was imported and there are many Orthodox cultural remains like three Episcopies and a whole city. Not to mension that after, when feudalism came, many Serbian noblemen ruled there. Why miss that part of history just because Albanians have a present quarrel with these Serbs??? HolyRomanEmperor 20:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't be so agressive. If you have information about that period we would be happy if you cover what is missing in the article. But don't forget to be neutral when you write. --Albanau 16:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian Empire 

message: I am adding the tags for unref. and PoV.  It talks of King Zog coaxing Parliament and not issuing reforms.  I know for a fact neither of these statements are true.  If you have read as much about Zog's rise to power also this would be clear, as it stands it is pushing a PoV.--Couter-revolutionary 00:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No its not pushing a POV at all. It may be inaccurate, and it may be unsourced, but that doesn't mean it is pushing a POV. Why not concentrate on improving the section yourself, if you know so much about the subject? --SandyDancer 17:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did, but my edits were deleted and the user said I wasn't allowed to make them, that's why.  It is pushing a PoV when it constantly, and inaccuratly, criticises the Kingdom under Zog, why else would it do this? It has gone out of its way to be inaccurate = PoV.  By removing the tag does this not show you have a PoV, perhaps.--Couter-revolutionary 17:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing wrong with having a POV. I don't actually have one here, you clearly do. You seem to be very interested in presenting this Zog character in an exceptionally good light. If you think something is inaccurate, discuss changes and/or edit relevant sections. Don't add the tag. The tag is for when there is a dispute and that isn't possible without an edit war. I am removing the tag again - you are misusing it. --SandyDancer 20:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said I believe a change will result in an edit war, in fact there seems to be one over this tag. I tried to change the incorrect parts of the article and it was immediately reverted.  I simply want this article to be fair, at the moment it is very anti-Zog, I shall not make it very Zogist simply neutral.--Couter-revolutionary 21:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Albania and First World War section

message: Someone should change the map, as it is unhistorical and inaccurate, giving the incorrect impression that the whole of Epirus and the island of Corfu belonged to Illyria, which they didn't, as they were in fact Greek. Obviously the creator of this map is a fan of the false theory of Pan-Illyrism. Here are some historically accurate maps of Illyria and Epirus, showing the actual bordering between them:
::http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg
::http://www.forumancientcoins.com/forvm/Articles/Maps/images/Map_Ancient_Greece_1900pix.jpg
::http://www.crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif
::http://www.e-grammes.gr/maps/650bc.gif
::http://www.e-grammes.gr/maps/433.jpg
::http://z.about.com/d/ancienthistory/1/7/7/9/2/Reference-Map-of-Ancient-Greece---Northern-Part..jpg
::http://www.wbenjamin.org/nc/greekmap.jpg
::http://www.philaprintshop.com/images/sdukancgrecn.jpg
::http://www.culturalresources.com/images/maps/Gre5BCBg.jpg Helladios 19:35, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It will indeed be great to find a modern historically accurate map, please come back with one. Helladios 13:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map of Illyria 

message: I cannot cross-reference all that is being said to the published material that is cited at the bottom of the page since I don't have access to most of those books, but I guess who has put them there has done it for a reason. I actually am somewhat ignorant on how the referencing should be really done. I did try to read the guidelines, but maybe a couple of links to a couple of well-referenced articles would be more helpful jonosphere 11:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referencing 

message: To the text Another population to the south is evidenced by an early tumulus culture, has been added and this is considered to represent the Albëri of the tenth and eleventh centuries, for whom the region of Arbëri (Gheg Albëni), north of Tirana between the Mat and Erzen rivers, is named. Is there any published connection of the tumuli and the "Albëri", for whom Wikipedia does not yet have a page? --Wetman 22:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Albëri" tumuli?

message: After trying to find something out about Albania diring WW2 it's become obvious that large sections of this page are sickeningly POV and, in several cases anti-Albanian.
If I knew more about Albanian history I'd just rewrite the sections myself, however as I dont, I can't. -IkonicDeath  —Preceding undated comment added 10:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree! This is absurd! Entire WWII Section must be rewritten! Albania was Nazi Puppet state. --Tadija (talk) 16:58, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Made appropriate changes. --sulmues (talk)  19:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Lack of NPOV

message: I removed that map because it isn't an ethnographic map but a map connecting ehtnicity to religion. I don't think that anyone can argue that Mussulmans isn't an ethnic description of any kind or that there is no nation called Serbo-Croats or Bulgar-Greeks.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 17:42, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The map, Ethnic composition map of the Balkans by A. Synvet of 1877, a French professor of the Ottoman Lyceum of Constantinople, has historic value.Megistias (talk) 07:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't an ethnographic map, so please don't reply to me without even answering my questions. Is there a nation called the Mussulmans or the Serbocroats or the Bulgarogreeks?--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 10:02, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The removal of the map's ref was not a vandalism. I removed the ref about A.Synvet being pro-Greek because what the ref actually says is not at all that: It says that the MAP was favourable to the Greek cause, not the geographers, which is something entirely different. In detail: "Other maps (not other geographers) amongst other ..... were favourable to the Greek cause" meaning that they agreed with the Greeks. That doesn't make (the geographers themselves) pro-Greek. The text is free on line as pdf. --Factuarius (talk) 00:23, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synvet Map 

message: Can Athenean and Alexikoua please stick to the sources and not misuse them for the usual reasons? Hammond doesn't say anything some Myceneans who moved and some who stayed, so please don't imply that for the usual reasons. As per AGF I added a cn, which if not sourced will be removed along with the phrase.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Alexikoua just made a disruptive edit by removing the cn tag and then adding a sentence which isn't only completely out of context, but also not at all relevant since Zeta is in Montenegro and not Albania.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:04, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I gave the full quote of the source. Please do not falsify edits of other editors. Some of the Greek people stayed in southern Albania, please read the following paragraph antiquity (or Chaones).Alexikoua (talk) 21:39, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made some reference management, so now the chronological sequence seems more clear.Alexikoua (talk) 21:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Alexikoua I can't even put to words how fringe your theory about Chaonians-Myceneans is. Btw the Zeta part will go to Montenegro articles where it belongs.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean? They both spoke the same language (Greek).Alexikoua (talk) 12:55, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added the Illirii presence since the southernmost layer of Zeta plain is on the Albanian-Montenegrin border. Moreover, Wilkes makes a more precise geographic definition of the Illirii area (Skrapar lake & Mont.- Albanian border) so now it fits nice in the history section of Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 15:15, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mycenae 

message: There seems that we have some dubious sources in the section of Independence of Albania, the last section where it mentions the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus. The sources are too old to be reliable so there is a need of bringing up-to-date sources an not sources of 60 years ago. 
"At the same time, an uprising in the country's south by local Greeks, led to the formation of the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus in the southern provinces (1914).[43] The republic proved short-lived as Albania collapsed with the onset of World War I. Greece held the area between 1914 and 1916, and unsuccessfully tried to annex it in March 1916,[43] however in 1917 it was driven from the area by Italy, who took over most of Albania.[44] The Paris Peace Conference of 1919 awarded the area to Greece, however the area definitively reverted to Albanian control in November 1921, following Greece's defeat in the Greco-Turkish War.[45]" (Edvin (talk) 10:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus  

message: Hello, I'd like to know if anyone was interested in working on the Dukagjin article. It is a region with a lot of history, and thought it might need some help. 
Twillisjr (talk) 15:31, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dukagjin Article 

message: There are significant NPOV and accuracy issues with postwar history of Albania. Wikipedia is not here to promote aggressive bias against previous regimes, partisans, Communists, Socialists, etc, but as any comparison with other sources like Britannica show, this article and some others are basically demonizing Hoxha and Alia-era Albania. Being Wikipedia, it is required to stick to the historical facts using reliable sourcing instead of sermonizing against this and that. Laval (talk) 00:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Continued NPOV and accuracy problems in modern history

message: I find that there is very little mentioning of the Albanian Angevin kingdom,along with the principality of Arber and the Princedom of Albania,as well as other principalities ruled by royal families,anyone interested in editing that section?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixious6 (talk • contribs) 13:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle ages gap 

message: I find that there is very little mentioning of the Albanian Angevin kingdom,along with the principality of Arbanon and the Princedom of Albania,as well as other principalities ruled by royal families,and most importantly that of the league of Lezhe.Anyone interested in editing that section?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixious6 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle ages gap 

message: This is ridiculous.If Albanian nationalism is rated Top importance and this high I do not see any sense here.This article is of higher importance than that.I propose to change the importance scale from "High" to "Top".Any disagreements?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixious6 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Importance: High? 

message: This kind of edit summary needs a decent explanation []. In fact the specific map (still needs verification but that's another issue) claims that the borders of state X are depicted here. Nevertheless the important fact that this entity was never an independent state is neglected and for an unknown reason this is considered "not relevant" to the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 22:18, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanation

message: In the second paragraph of the section Late Middle Ages the following sentence appears. "These three entities cover the history of Albania between the late 12th century, until the half of the 14th century, when Albanian Principalities were created through all Albania."
It looks like it should say either "until the first half of the 14th century" or "until the latter half of the 14th century". Something like that. But since I don't know which is meant, I can't fix it myself. --bodnotbod (talk) 09:38, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Can anyone help with a small copy-edit?

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: I am asking beacuse some people say it is not and i want to know 109.236.40.69 (talk) 18:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is albania illyrian? 

message: Do Albanians actually call the current Albanian state the "Fourth Republic"? StellarHalo (talk) 07:23, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession of Republics