Talk:History of the United States/Archive 2

message: This article needs a complete overhaul. Social and economic history are almost completely ignored... I admit to neglecting this article for a while. (I mostly wrote the majority of articles in this series, but I just started editing this one.) Before I make any major changes, I may propose a draft outline on this page. 172 12:29, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite needed

message: The section on "A New World Order" seems to have dissolved the essence of an encylopedia and instead puts forth a clearly bias'd op-ed.  I note the phrase "the United States has attempted or been perceived as attempting" is insufficient caveat for listing a litany of onesided charges without fair balance.
The "Persian Gulf War" section is even further afield in the early paragraphs, where it demonstrate cynicism at the view that the Iraq invasion of Kuwait was unacceptable.  It even sound approving!
I am not a historian nor have the capacity to do proper literary treatment to the subject, else I would recommend a better approach.  But I am sufficiently well read to recognize thinly veiled op-ed.  Whatever the authors political issues, the articals should strive to avoid contaminating what could be a useful educational reference.
:The most obviously biased part of the section was "classifying certain countries as 'rogue states' because they don't grovel before our wishes." The work of a professional historian, to be sure. Neo-Comm 01:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the huge chunks of the article that you've been deleting includes a reference to Samuel P. Huntington. If he is your idea of a 'Chomskian left historian', I am going to have a hard time taking you seriously. 172 08:06, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: That's the problem. Since Wikipedia happens to be an encyclopedia, you cannot remove huge chunks of factual data (with authoritative references) in an article without doing any research just because certain aspects of history make you feel uncomfortable. 172 08:32, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, if you want to be taken seriously, shifting from one sockpuppet to another (Trey Stone, Supreme Moolah of Iran, Neo-Comm, Prole, and now EDR) won't help. 172 08:34, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Can you challenge the factual standing of any of the statements-- backed up by a reference to a Huntington article-- as opposed to making the claim that the content implies things that are not stated? This is an encyclopedia, not a forum for back and forward rhetoric. 172 03:00, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to block your latest sockpuppet account. "Raghead" is a bigoted epithet directed at South Asian or Middle Eastern persons. Wikipedia has a policy against offensive usernames. Names that promote racial/ethnic/national/religious hatred are the most inflammatory and unacceptable of them all. 172 11:52, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Watch it. If you spew racial/ethnic/national/religious hatred, I will block you again and make sure that you're sockpuppets never reappear. Try to become a legitimate user or at least stop wasting your time on Wiki. 172 12:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I don't think we can come to a reasonable conclusion until 172 stops babbling about "U.S. this" and "U.S. that" and "monopolies for arms dealers" and "deciding who the UN Sec-General is" and "'threat' (dismissive) of Communism to serve U.S. interests" and "'human rights' standards -- defined by the U.S. of course" and "U.S. everything." Come teh f on. Trey Stone 07:45, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias in Wikipedia 

message: this anti-American laced POV on this page if he expects it to stay. J. Parker Stone 08:06, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 172 is gonna have to justify

message: See the archives. The most significant change in your edits, to which I object the most, was the removal of the paragraph citing Huntington, a conservative scholar. You failed to explain why it should have been removed months ago. I do not see the difference now, so I refer you to my past coments on this same matter. 172 08:29, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: i don't care how much of this is based on Huntington's writings, it is disgustingly POV. "During the Cold War, the purported "threat" of communism..." -- dismissive quotes. "This status provided major political and economic benefits; and to perpetuate the role and interests in the international system stated above, the United States has sought to reassert its power through a revitalization of the Cold War institutional structures, especially NATO." -- this article is about U.S. policies -- you can speculate on our motives elsewhere. "These policies later manifested themselves in events such as ending the ethnic conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo, the adoption of the North American Free Trade Agreement, and the negotiations with North Korea over nuclear weapons, respectively." -- well at least you kept one objective edit.
"...practices regarding neoliberal economic policy and "human rights"" -- again, dismissive quotes. There is an INTERNATIONAL DEFINITION of human rights. "...promote U.S. corporate interests under the catchphrases of "free trade" and "open markets"" -- i don't think i even need to comment here. "...grade countries according to their adherence to U.S. standards on "free markets," "terrorism," "human rights," drugs, and weapons proliferation" -- again, there are international standards. You get the point. This whole thing is phrased in terms of U.S. this, U.S. that, a long litany of charges that are coming at it from an angle when our job is to provide readers with balanced, objective info. J. Parker Stone 00:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You are making not a single substantive point. There is not "litany of charges," just the reality. Now, if you have some work suggesting that Huntington, described by many as a neoconservative, is wrong, cite it. Otherwise, you are just spewing your own personal opinions and disregarding Wikipedia:No original research. 172 01:32, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Again note the no original research policy. The matter is whether or not Huntington is right. 172 01:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You are still spewing nonsense. You do not have one bit of evidence suggesting that it is anything but the reality. 172 01:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: These terms are in quotations because the phrases are references to U.S. policy. I will rework the text to make it flow better, but over the course of nearly a year, you have failed to present a single argument for removing the text. 172 02:00, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: What the hell are you talking about? If you ever take a class on international relations, these are exactly the topics that will come up. By their nature states pursue their own interests. The only one suggesting that this is an accusation of "evil" is you. 172 02:05, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: No one is saying that U.S. policy consists only of promoting its economic interests, but no serious observer will claim that it is not a factor deserving comment... Again I cite Huntington for the claims actually made in the article, not your strawman. Whom are you citing to suggest that he is wrong? 172 02:36, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: So object to discussing the long-term U.S. foreign policy interests in the section on U.S. foreign policy? I must say that I am a bit perplexed. 172 02:55, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I have symphathy for societies caught in a vicious cycle of debt, underdevelopment and conflict, and those who try to overcome these problems. For the record I see the biggest success stories in East Asia, particularly Taiwan, South Korea, et al., not in the 'anti-American Third World and socialist states' I suspect that you are describing. Beyond that I have nothing else to say. Wikipedia is not a chat forum. 172 09:49, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You are writing lies and libelous material-- worse than your typical personal attacks. I have never professed admiration for Chavez or Castro. 172 07:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You had the chance to state that you were mistaken, but you are still spewing libels. I never made any such comments about Chavez. You had the chance to state that you were mistaken, but you are still spewing libels. Quit attempting to divert the focus to me because you keep on failing to support your sweeping deletions of relevant historical data. 172 08:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: jesus, calm down. maybe i'll try and dig it up later. i'd stop speculating if you'd just come clean about your political views. i'm not "diverting attention" from anything, i just want to effing know. J. Parker Stone 08:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will explain any of my edits and comments on Wikipedia, which do not include the comments that you accuse me of making. Beyond that, I refuse to give you any personal information at request. Wikipedia is not a chat forum and you will not distract me and get me to join you in using Wikipedia inappropriately. 172 08:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Ericd: Actually, I'm very sympathetic to Chavez. I proposed that the photos be included when discussing the widespread support Chavez received from the impoverished majority. The photos would be an example of the conditions in many of his supports live. 172 12:47, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: This comment is totally out of context. I made this comment to a user who is not the best speaker of English, who was accusing me of bias against Chavez. I don't know if I fully understood his point, but, to make the conversation go more civilly and to prevent unnecessary misunderstanding, I wanted to imply that I was "sympathetic"-- which does not imply support in any way-- to the position upon which he based his criticism of me. (His comments accused me of inserting the pictures to imply that Chavez was the cause of the poverty. He disagreed, and I reassured him that I was sympathetic to his position with respect whether or not Chavez was the main cause of Venezuelan poverty, given that his position, of course, is the correct one.) Also, I would say the same for any current Latin American head of state or government with respect to efforts to deal with poverty. Thus, this comment **made nearly two years ago-- before Chavez was so apparently close to Castro** in no way demonstrates any support for Chavez today... This is my last statement on this matter. 172 08:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I have stated my political views repeatedly; I am not a socialist, not affiliated with any socialist organization, and your accusations are a total misrepresentation and totally libelous. While I might be more open to engage in more informal discussions with other users, I have absolutely no interest at this point in engaging in any more discussion with you than is necessary. 172 08:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no need to tell you. This was exceedingly clear from my work (which should show you that my training is in market economics) and comments over the past two years. You are just trying to discredit me because you apparently have no other way of justifying your edits on this page. End of discussion. 172 08:55, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Trey Stone