Talk:Heinrich Heine

message: Where the hell did you come with that from? His mother couldnt be Prussian, because if she was, then he couldnt be a Jew. He was born Jewish, then his mother was Jewish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.69.57.179 (talk) 16:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This conversation has been rendered obsolete by the revised article. Düsseldorf did not become part of Prussia until 1815. Heine's mother was born in 1771. She was not Prussian but "Bergish". --Paul Marston (talk) 13:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  His mother? Prussian? 

message: The new translation of Ludwig Börne (ed. Jeffrey L. Sammons, Camden House, 2006) says (p. 13 n. 42, "There was an old rumor, propagated particularly by anti-Semites, that Heine's Jewish name was Chaim, but there is no evidence for it."  If no one can point to a recent reliable source that confronts this, the claim should be removed from the article.  Wareh 20:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Really born "Chaim"? 

message: Wac Karl Marx a friend of Heine or an acquaintance? Heine was very critical of communists, saying that though their language is different, their goal is the very same absolutism he always opposed. 75.84.113.125 (talk) 21:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marx: Friend or acquaintance? 

message: The article claimed that Heine had the following (tacky, doggerel) couplet engraved on his tombstone:
 Hier liegen meine gebeine -- 
 Wenn wären sie nur deine! 
 Heine. 
("Here lie my bones -- if only they were yours! Heine." Epitaph)
While I don't know whether Heine penned that verse or not, I do know they are nowhere near his tombstone.  There are some excellent photographs of the grave here.  There is a poem engraved, a much finer lyric that begins: 
 Wo wird einst des Wandermuden 
 Letzte Ruhestatte sein? ... 
(Where will the tired wanderer's / last resting place be?), etc. 
So I deleted what appears to be a myth from the article.  Unfortunately, it is one that might have taken firmer renewed life due to a long sojourn on this article.   Best, Eliezg (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Mea culpa, "I have been Foolish and Deluded". Thank you and best wishes, --HTO (talk) 22:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Epitaph

message: in the german wikipedia it says the this poem was written in 1824. can anyone confirm this? Sundar1 (talk) 05:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loreley 

message: The works of Jewish poets was banned by the National Socialists. However, the Lorelei was so famous and
part of German life, that is was hopeless to erase it from German life. Thus, when die Lorelei was sung
as set to music or written, it was ascribed to "an unknown German poet". 
First Stanza:
"Ich weiss nicht was soll es bedeuten
dass ich so traurig bin
Ein Maerchen aus alten Zeiten
Es geht mir nicht aus dem Sinn"
Set to music by a well-known composer.
Hez (talk) 22:44, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's a famous anecdote. The trouble is, as far as I know, nobody has yet been able to verify its authenticity. The German Wikipedia article on "Loreley" says: "Von Walter Arthur Berendsohn und Theodor W. Adorno stammt die – bis heute jedoch unbelegte – Behauptung, dass das Lied so populär war, dass es selbst die Nationalsozialisten im Dritten Reich nicht gewagt hätten, es aus den Lyrik-Anthologien zu entfernen, obwohl Heinrich Heine als Jude zu den Dichtern gehörte, deren Werke verboten und verbrannt wurden. Seine Urheberschaft sei jedoch unterschlagen und stattdessen meistens „von einem unbekannten deutschen Dichter“ oder ähnliches angegeben worden." Paul Marston (talk) 09:21, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Important Missing Information - Treatment of the Lorelei by the Nazi's (National Socialists) 

message: Hegel's influence on Heine is very tentatively stated. The inclusion of the image of Hegel giving a lecture makes it seem as though he was obviously a strong influence. According to the article, "Most important was the philosopher Hegel, whose influence on Heine is hard to gauge. He probably gave Heine and other young students the idea that history had a meaning which could be seen as progressive." Did Heine believe in Hegelian historical progress? As a matter of fact, the article quotes Heine as dreading the future when the Communists are in power. Heine wrote, "I can foresee all this and I feel deeply sorry thinking of this decline threatening my poetry and the old world order." The whole sentence on the influence of a progressive Hegelian meaning to history is not very informative. It almost sounds vacuous.Lestrade (talk) 19:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you should try to fix it then. As Sammons says, the question of Hegel's influence on Heine is extremely confused (just like everything else to do with Hegel IMHO). Also, the young Heine is not the same as the old Heine. I'm not any kind of Hegelian and, frankly, I don't know what Heine saw in him. At least he didn't attempt to copy Hegel's prose style. If you think the picture gives undue weight to Hegel's influence on Heine, then go ahead and remove it. On the other hand, it might be viewed as an illustration of Berlin intellectual life in the 1820s. Paul Marston (talk) 11:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Hegel's hard-to-gauge influence

message: The Continental System was particularly important to Heine and his family because it may have been a leading factor in his father's bankruptcy. Sammons again (this time in Heinrich Heine: Alternative Perspectives 1985-2005</i> (p. 67): "Napoleonic rule was a decidedly mixed blessing for the Grand Duchy of Berg. While the territory profited from the modernization of political administration, it suffered grievous economic dislocation and depression. It is not improbable that the difficulties leading eventually to the inglorious bankruptcy of Heine's father, who was, after all, an importer of English goods, were initially rooted in Napoleon's economic blockade of the Continent. These consequences of Napoleonic rule bore much more directly on Heine's life and fate than the alleged emancipation of the Jews; yet he completely ignored them..." Paul Marston (talk) 12:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional information

message: David Nicholls, Napoleon: A Biographical Companion, p.22: "Economically, however, French rule was a disaster for Berg. The Continental System brought trade to a virtual halt, and when a plea for economic integration with France was rejected, manufacturing relocated to the French west bank of the Rhine, adding to unemployment and the misery of the population. Economic destitution, conscription, and the hated tobacco and salt taxes caused the people of Berg to rise against French rule in 1813, when news of Napoleon’s defeat in Russia filtered through. The rising was repressed without pity, but the end was near for the artificially created Grand Duchy."
J. Christopher Herold The Age of Napoleon, pages 271-272: "[Jacques Claude] Beugnot’s adminstration [of Berg] was exemplary, but its benefits were canceled by Napoleon’s increasing exactions of contributions and manpower and by the adverse effects of the Continental System on the Grand Duchy’s industry and trade." 
J.P Riley Napoleon and the World War of 1813 on the disastrous economic effects of the Continental System (p.36): "Michael Broers cites the example of the Grand Duchy of Berg, in which the resulting job losses were dramatic: some 10,000 by 1810, a contributing factor to the revolts which broke out in the Confederation of the Rhine in January 1813."
George Lefebvre From Tilsit to Waterloo (p. 257): "The Grand Duchy of Berg, strangled between the French Empire on one side and her German neighbours to the other, was in a pitiful plight. Her sales fell from 55 million currency in 1807 to 39 million currency in 1810. Trade agreements would have provided some relief but Napoleon did not encourage these, for he wanted to keep all the profits for France."
Alexander I. Grab Napoleon and the Transformation of Europe (p. 98): "In sum, Berg’s financial situation was modernised but it also imposed a heavy burden on the population.
"Even more aggravating was the serious economic damage caused by the Continental Blockade and French customs barriers. Berg possessed the most prosperous industrial base in Germany [...] To prevent competition with French industry, however, Napoleon imposed high tariffs on their imports into France and other satellites. Consequently, Berg's exports declined from 60 million francs prior to the blockade to 11 million francs in 1811." Paul Marston (talk) 19:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: More on economic "disaster", conscription and taxation

message: Substituted at 17:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Heinrich Heine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://archive.is/20140804212936/http://www.hagalil.com/postcards/jerusalem.htm to http://www.hagalil.com/postcards/jerusalem.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:13, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Heinrich Heine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.library.umass.edu/heine
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080930054954/http://webcgi.oit.umass.edu/~shea/query.html to http://webcgi.oit.umass.edu/~shea/query.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060206091702/http://artofthestates.org/cgi-bin/piece.pl?pid=313 to http://artofthestates.org/cgi-bin/piece.pl?pid=313
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:48, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: That Heine was (born-ie ethnically, if not practising) Jewish is not disputable, but is it normal to state someone's ethnicity/religion in the opening sentence unless ethnicity/religion is central to the person's notability? That he was later vilified as being Jewish in the Nazi era, does not make his work Jewish in character surely? Pincrete (talk) 19:33, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: He was neither an ethnic nor a religious Jew for most of his life. That, just like the first King of Sweden from the Bernadotte Dynasty: was born in an ethnic culture and religion, then changed his identity.31.40.131.100 (talk) 14:04, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  German - Jewish ? 

message: I have removed Wandere that had been added by  with a translation of his own, but without any context. :wikisource:Main Page|Wikisource]] may be interested in such works, but a poem without any context does not improve our readers' understanding of Heine. There were also issues with the translation; translating poetry in archaic language is no easy task. If the article should say something about Wandere, it would likely be better to rely on a professional, published translation than to come up with our own. Huon (talk) 20:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Individual poems 

message: there are two common inaccuracies in the paragraph on Heine in the time of nazism: first, in searching  through hundreds of books of the time, there has never been found a proof for the "Lorelei" given with "author unknown". . See also . 
Second, Heine's books were not among those immediately forbidden and burnt by the nazis. Only in 1940 were they (along with all books by Jewish authors) forbidden. This is also stated in the above references. In addition, see  ("black lists of books to be burned 1933) and  contains one book by Heine (printed in Moscow 1935), not "all works" as, e.g., for the Manns (p. 91) or Bert Brecht (p. 16) and many others. 
Unfortunately, I don't have citation in English to use as sources. But I could work the above in (and would mention explicitly that no evidence has been found for the long-lived myth of the "unknown author"). Thoughts? --Qcomp (talk) 15:58, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no requirement that sources must be in English. The sources you mention are perfectly fine. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:13, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, I rewrote the paragraph, please have a look; BTW, the title "Nazi interpretations of Heine" does not seem appropriate to the text that follows. Something like "Heine in Nazi Germany" or "Nazi policy on Heine" would seem a better fit. --Qcomp (talk) 09:13, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heine in Nazi Germany: two corrections 

message: I hope that everyone here agrees that humanity was born In East Africa and the habit of determining the ethnicity of a person only by his ancestors can lead us into a dead end, right? This is usually done on Wikipedia, but what if the person CLEARLY broke with their past identity, it's tradition and etc and started a new one life with new identity? This is exactly what happened to Heinrich Heine: he changed his Jewish identity and became culturally German and religiously Christian. I do not understand why the Jewish Wikipedia in hebrew understands this, recognizes him as an ethnic German, does not try to classify him as "their own", but the editors from Germany do not want to consider him a German by culture, but only by language of his works. You guys don't believe in human free will to determine their culture? It seems reasonable to me to leave reference to German people at the beginning since assimilation is an important part of his biography, which is how he started his Germanophile writings at a time when nationalism was in vogue.31.40.131.100 (talk) 14:28, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody disputes that Heine is a German writer. Nevertheless, a link to German people is unnecessary per WP:OVERLINK. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:52, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

text: Also: Germans is a broad article, not really helpful at the very beginning (before a reader sees anything else about him), and not going into detail about the period he lived. And also: the country Germany as it is today didn't even exist when he lived. No link seems to be better than a misleading one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:21, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well I wrote that I mean here "Germans" not as a political nation, but as ethnic Germans. Mozart in his letters back in the 18th century definitely did not deny the existence of a "German nation" in the cultural-enthnic sense and was proud that he was a German. There is a difference between nationality (citizenship) and ethnicity (culture, identity). There are many 2nd generation Turks and Arabs born in Germany: rest assured, they do not consider themselves "Germans" culturally, as far as i know. The same can be said about ethnic Germans in Russia and Kazakhstan, millions of whom have moved to Germany as USSR falls and borders opened. The thing is usually i agree that per wp:overlink there is no need to say about ethnicity in wp:lead, but isn't there exception as an important biography part? After all, the first lines of the biography article are a brief retelling of the entire article. And in it it is written about his assimilation. 31.40.131.100 (talk) 18:24, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity matter 

message: Surely, I can’t be the only one who came away from this article wondering how he got lead poisoning?  Maybe this should be mentioned? Viriditas (talk) 19:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: the lead poisoning hypothesis is not confirmed (see, e.g., here for a later statement that argues against it and in favor of syphilis and contains the reference of the scientific article). I think speculations on the origin of the poisoning should not be included in the article, given that it is even doubtful whether the high lead concentration in what were supposedly his hairs has anything to do with his illness or death. --Qcomp (talk) 13:18, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead poisoning