Talk:Plate armour

message: Proper Citations? Having done a google search and come up with this, I discovered that Reference.com has a section that is word-for-word the first paragraph of this article. Should this perhaps be corrected and Cited properly?
:There seem to be a number of websites that actually mirror the content created on wikipedia (experts.about.com, for instance). While this is somewhat disturbing, as articles that might be treated as historically accurate and NPOV on a site other than wikipedia might be seen as far from accurate or very POV on wikipedia. However, I don't think this text was stolen from another article. Also, please sign with your signature. -- Xiliquiern 15:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations?

message: The italian schools also taught half sword, depending on how you group the manuals.  Solotuner, which is a swedish copy of Talhoffer, contains halbschwert as well.  Should we include this information when talking about aiming for the gaps in armor?  Perhaps it's own article or section?  What thinks dab? Sethwoodworth 10:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  half sword 

message: The article could use more indepth description of the differences between Gothic and Milanese armour.  Is there a pictorial representation of the Italianate form that could be added?  Finally, I can find nothing on Wikipedia about Maximilian armour, that which was developed in Germany during Maximilian's reign.  Can anyone with such knowledge or resources add this? Srnec 05:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictorial representation and deeper description

message: The article mentions "Imperial Japanese" musketeers in the early 19th century. That seems to be self-contradictory: The Empire of Japan is said to have begun in 1871. I'm not sure what we should link to instead - Edo period? -- Huon 18:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imperial Japanese musketeers 

message: uon
In this article, it states that a full set of armor can weigh only 45 pounds, if it's well made. I would like to know more what the average weight is, instead of the lightest. If anyone knows anything about it, that would be an addition that at least I would appreciate.
::45 is a good average number for early mid and late midieval period Sethwoodworth 19:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will have to disagree. It might be a better representation of the late medieval period, with the use of highly specialized and very efficient suits (Gothic, Maximilian). During the early medieval period (of plate armour use), however, I think that the weight was significantly great, up to 30 or 40 pounds more because people were wearing partial (or in some cases, nearly full) plate segments over a complete set of chainmail. Needless to say, this practice was quickly dropped as the defensive potential of plate armour was realized and armours mostly of plate with chain in vulnerable areas began to appear. -- Xiliquiern 15:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There wasn't a large period where armor was worn over complete sets of mail.  Breastplates at least, partial armors were worn for 50+ years.  It isn't certain if the Black Prince style full waisted breastplate was worn over mail or not.  But it's reasonable to assume it was worn double for at least some time.  But on the other hand the aketon was a defense well used by itself, it's not that hard to figure out how to attach tassets and partial mail to the base coat.  No archeological evidence either way.  Sethwoodworth 20:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weight of plate armor 

message: Full plate doesn't seems very likely: https://vimeo.com/13634653
Japanese 30 lbs armor seems to be possible:
https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/swim-samurai-33-lbs-medival-armor-article-1.1178426
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcT5J7yg9k
Mail shirt also probably possible:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwd2ZEav2vE
Obviously, very exhausting.
Norfindel (talk) 00:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  I found sources on swimming with armor 

message: Goals of this edit would be to increase the information available on this rather broad topic. I would like to see the chronology and development of plate armour an apparent feature of this article, as it is almost paramount to understanding the development of tactics and weapons throughout history. I would also like to see a more culturally broad representation of plate armour, including references to the Middle Eastern and Eastern adoptation of plate (in some cases). Here follows my proposed additions/edits:
*Western (European Armour)
:*Classical Plate Armour
:::use of bronze plate by Greeks and Romans
::::greaves, helmets, ocassionally corselets
:*Age of Mail (10th-13th Century)
:::lessened use of plate, greater use of mail
::::pointed open-faced helm with nasal → barrel (pot) helms → pointed closed-faced helm
:*Transition Period (Late 13th - Early 15th Century)
:::basis of mail, padded, scale armour being reinforced later with plate
::::brigandine of plates, knee cops, ailettes/pauldrons, greaves, gauntlet, besagews, etc added piece by piece
:*Gothic and Milanese Period (15th - 16th Century)
::: completed harnisse is refined and tweaked
:::: plate thickness and composition different for sword and bridle, increased size of shoulder/elbow cops → more articulated plates, long pointed solerets, heaume → basinet → sallet & armet, fluting began at end of century
:*Maximilian Period (Early to Mid 16th Century)
::: heavily fluted harnisse
:::: more 'globose' in appearance, blunted sabatons, 
:*Modified Armours
::*Parade and Decorative Armours - increased weight, decreased defensive capability (due to firing, creasing, etching, etc)
::*Three-Quarter & One-Half Suits - firearms cause need to lose protection below knee, eventually lost leg and arm plates altogether for weight and mobility, armets → open faced helmets
:*Speciality Armours
::Pikemans Armour
::Jousting Harnisse
*Eastern (Oriental) Armour
Less recorded pictures (excepting japanese), harder to extrapolate dates of use, more difficult to determine influences
::*Turkish Armour 
:::Mostly mail, with large sewn plates integrated later c. 15th - 16th Century
:::Ceremonial/Decorative addition of silver work, gilding, engraving
::::Helmets of plate, short sleeved mail coats with banded plate, later cuisses and greaves
::*Indian Armour
:::Similar to Turkish, incorporated plated strapped over mail
::::17th century use of european style cuirasse, 18th century almost totally plate sewn with chain
::*Japanese Armour
:::early riveted plate (lots of little plated riveted to make one cuirasse)
:::complex system of laminate, mail, plate and mail, woven thread, scales
*Composition
::*Discuss metal properties and technique of use, reason for creasing, etc
*Modern Plate Armour
::Information is already there, perhaps discuss the more recent innovations and use of sewn ceramic plates (Iraq)
Please let me know if any of you are opposed to this edit, would like to help me, or would like to be notified if/when it is "done". Xiliquiern 17:59, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree totally. I simply tried to present a very rough overview of the vast amount of information. The difference between (and regional popularity of) milanese and gothic armour would certainly be addressed, as well as the development of the armet simultaneously with the sallet (here, I was trying to show popularity of use throughout Europe, though regional popularity could easily be addressed as well). Since the concept of brigandine did not change greatly after the 'transitional' periods (as far as I know), I meant to include a statement noting its prevalence into the 16th century. When I write this, I think a focus on simultaneous creation/development of multiple armour systems in different regions should definitely be an important aspect of the article and should have been reflected in my outline. I would certainly like to have your input during the creation of the article - knowledgeable editors in this area seem limited. If you have another way of potentially breaking up the 'periods' of armour development for the article, I would like to see it as well. -- Xiliquiern 18:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Heavy Edit 

message: I remember reading that knights could even dance while wearing full plate armor.  Although, I'm not sure if this is accurate, but it might well be as knights were not hindered by the armor while running, jumping, and walking.  If I remember correctly, the book I read stated that a nobleman was famous for being able to dance in full plate armor.  I'm not sure if this was true for all knights, but it might.  Do you think we need to put this in the article?SCGhosthunter1 15:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: you'll need to find the reference for where you read it, but if you do, why not. dab (𒁳) 15:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Dancing in armour is no big deal. Done in the Society for Creative Anacronism regularly.15.203.169.126 07:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dancing? 

message: Didn't the Parthians invent it? Brutannica 06:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Almost certainly not. The panoply of ancient Greek hoplites seems to predate Parthia. --Eyrian 06:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be thinking of some variety of lamellar armour.  Stephen Aquila (talk) 00:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Parthia

message: I'm reading up on plate and thought it would be kind if I shared where I was learning about it. 
http://www.ceu.hu/medstud/manual/SRM/armor.htm
http://web.mit.edu/21h.416/www/militarytechnology/armor.html
http://www.oakeshott.org/metal.html
http://www.samuraisword4u.com/samurai-armor/the-samurai-armor
--70.57.87.47 (talk) 07:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: I found the article Medieval plate mail on Special:Newpages, and it seemed more appropriate as a section of another article. I know next to nothing on the subject myself and am not sure if plated mail would be a better article to merge it into. --Ginkgo100talk 04:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Medieval plate mail article is incorrectly named (plate mail is a misnomer), provides no new information, and it's references are very poor(a poorly executed literature review and a website for an RPG).  It should be deleted not merged. Mercutio.Wilder 07:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: I do not see kevlar vests as used by modern military personnel to be 'plate armour.' In particular it seems to be closer to a modern version of a brigandine, coat of plates, or covered lamellar armour and may not belong in a discussion of plate armour.Mad2Physicist (talk) 07:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kevlar (History)? 

message: While it is interesting that tanko denotes ancient Japanese armour made from iron plates, 
I do believe the term "plate armour" primarily denotes the armour used in 14th to 17th century Europe.
Even the lorica segmentata as a remote predecessor is of dubious relevance. 
It would be better to write a dedicated article about Japanese armour, including tanko, and link that from here. Also the armour article is in desolate shape, and would be the correct place to present a global overview of this history of armour. --dab (𒁳) 09:13, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Article scope

message: *The name of the article is "Plate armour", not European plate armour, there were many cultures that made and used plate armour, the term "plate armour" does not belong to any one country or culture. Since people who come to wikipedia expect accurate information on a subject its important to fully expand the article to include the origins of plate armour, who used plate armour, and when it was used, as well as what is and is not plate armour etc.
The Japanese were early manufacturers of armour consisting of iron plates and many centuries later the Japanese took European designs in plate armour and started to manufacture and use plate armour of their own after many centuries of using lamellar armour, this is part of the history of plate armour and can not be minimized just to satisfy editors who's only interest is European plate armour.
I would suggest starting an article titled European plate armours etc in order to satisfy editors who want an European plate armour only article.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 14:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There are too many parallels between European and Eastern plate armour development to warrant wholly separate articles. The current layout works well IMO, although we could maybe do with a little (no more than a sentence or two) on Japanese armour being readded to the lead section. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 09:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is "plate armour" who used it and how did it get here 

message: The wikipedia page I chose to critique is on the subject of plate armor. The article gives a description of plate armor, its history, its uses, and its effect on other technologies. I am focusing on the first part of the article up to the part on jousting armor since the remaining sections focus mainly on modern day body armor. The article is well written and organized effectively, but there are some things that could use improvement. 
All of the sources seem to be complete and credible. Two of the nine sources covered in the section are from the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s website. The other sources include a couple of books and three websites. Two websites are complete with bibliographies but one website called Themiddleages.net does not list its sources, even though the information does seem to be consistent with what I have learned about the subject. 
There are numerous illustrations that show plated armor. However, I would have preferred to see separate illustrations of specific plated armor with descriptions. For example, illustrations could be added to show a typical plated helmet, shield, and breast plate. 
There does not seem to be any frivolous information in the article. All of the information is relevant to the subject and would help any reader who was interested in the subject.
This wikipedia article differs from an encyclopedia entry because it is more specific. A typical encyclopedia entry would have grouped plated armor under a general armor category. Also, the article discusses other technologies that the plated armor affected such as weapon development. 
The only improvements I would make would be to add some illustrations with descriptions as mentioned before. The section on Late Middle Ages could also be expanded to show more of the development of the armor from the 13th century. Finally, the one questionable source could be replaced with a more reliable one. In conclusion, the article is well written and provides the basic information needed to understand the history and uses of plated armor.
Hist406-13tmalone (talk) 21:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critique