Talk:Thích Nhất Hạnh/Archive 1

message: The following language, 
: In 1969, Thich Nhat Hanh led the Vietnamese Buddhist Peace Delegation to the Paris Peace Talks and remained there until the peace accords were signed in 1973. Since 1966, he has lived in exile in France.
: A political refugee since 1972, 
from the two main 'graphs respectively, is a hopeless mess, if not contradictory.  Perhaps at the same time, it should be fixed to reflect the almost certain fact that any "Vietnamese Buddhist Peace Delegation to the Paris Peace Talks" was misrepresenting itself by choosing that name. They were perhaps an ongoing monitoring effort, and an attempt to draw attention to their exclusion from the negotiations:  the delegations were IIRC 4 in number, the US, N VN, S VN, and the NLF ("Viet Cong"). (And the only substantive negotiations were between US & N VN; no pacifists need apply.) 
Someone should work on it and return an acceptable acct for the period since 1966 to the article.  
Could it mean
: In 1966, he left South (i think, but perhaps North) Viet Nam, either with the consent of that gov't, illegally, or by failing to return as that gov't expected, settling in France for his safety, freedom of action, and/or as a protest. He continued to protest the Viet Nam War, including 1969-1973 during the Paris Peace Talks by setting up an ongoing monitoring effort and/or attempt to draw attention to pacifists' exclusion from the negotiations and describing this as a "Vietnamese Buddhist Peace Delegation" to the talks. It became clear in 1972 that he would not be permitted to return to either North or South Vietnam, and he has remained in France as of 2002.
(See Wikipedia:As of.)
: [The above was the bulk of a single contribution, signed 
:: --Jerzy 20:50, 2004 Jan 16 (UTC)
: but the last, 1-sent. 'graph turns out be of wider interest and to be part of an extended discussion.  That 'graph has been moved to #Separate Use of "Nhat" by Jerzy(t) 01:58, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC).]
I found that Thầy has been mispelled, it shouldn't be Thây since that means 'dead body' and not Thầy which means 'teacher.' Nhuocdong
:You are absolutely correct! I was shocked when I read this, because the majority of Western sites that use this term to refer to Thich Nhat Hanh use the "â" rather than the "ầ". However, in checking http://www.langmai.org , Thich Nhat Hanh's monestery site in Vietnamese, the word "Thầy" is used. Thank you for making us aware of this. I'll make this correction in the article. Nightngle 18:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Troublesome language

message: I have deprecated the former section head ==Papa don't preach== as less informative (even if more fun) than the new one above; sorry if someone has linked to it, but the What links here doesn't make that likely.
IMO, the description of his teachings beyond the bare bones is an intrusive attempt to preach in an article that is justified by his press coverage over the years, but not by whatever innovations or role in resolving/sustaining intra-Buddhist differences he may be responsible for.  (Those who want to understand the content, rather than the jargon, of his teachings can link from here to an article on the subject (such as the broken links in the following or in the text i've retained in the article!) if anyone cares to write them, and if they survive VfD review.
: He is today (2002) the charismatic head of the Order of Inter-Being (a group of lay people who are dedicated practitioners and accept the 14 Mindfulness Trainings), as well as a monastic community that cherishes the full consciousness of being .  He teaches mindfulness in the Plum Village Buddhist Center in Dordogne, France.
: In 1982 he founded Plum Village, a meditation community in the south of France. A founder of "Engaged Buddhism", he is known for his works which discuss both Christianity and Buddhism. 
: "The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon." 
(The quote, which is apparently profound for his disciples, but which prompts even this Buddhism-sympathetic reader only to recall that Eastern thought has no monopoly on pretentious profound crap, illustrates the unsuitablility of including much abt his teachings in the bio article.)  --Jerzy 20:50, 2004 Jan 16 (UTC)
"The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon" has real meaning and is not pretentious. In buddhism constant emphasis is placed on direct, subjective experience of reality. There are many schools within buddhism, each with their own emphases. However, a fundamental tenet of all Buddhism is that the individual practitioner not place dogma above direct experience of ultimate reality. Therefore, the "religion", philosophy or teaching one employs as an assist to enlightement are only tools or exercises and must never be given excessive emphasis or placed above your own experience. 
This breif phrase is a poetic reminder of that concept.
The teachings are symbolized as "the finger pointing at the moon". The moon being enlightenment itself. But one is reminded that faithfull adherence to the teachings will not assure enlightenment, they are not to be confused with enlightenment itself. The "path" is not the same as the "destination". 
I do not beleive buddhism or Wikipedia benefits from the type of "sympathy" illustratd above.
- Jody
: I appreciate your sentiment here, Jody, but I have to side with Jerzy here since the quote - which is a quote from the Buddha, not TNH, afterall - was simply stuck into the entry in isolation. Your explanation of the quote was an improvement, but even then, the purpose of including information on TNH's teachings should help explain how his teachings enhance, add to, or help Buddhism evolve rather than simply promote Buddhism. The section on Buddhism here would be a great place to explain and expound on the above quote.Nightngle 13:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive Coverage of Teachings 

message: :[The following 'graph was the end of a much longer contrib, the rest of which remains at its orginal position and has thus been incorporated into the section #Troublesome language.  The 'graph has been moved here, along with responses to it, to be part of the discussion that stems from it, by Jerzy(t) 01:58, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC).]
The repetition of the full name and title in this langues language is contrary to WP style as well: 2nd and subsequent references should be to family name, Nhat. --Jerzy 20:50, 2004 Jan 16 (UTC)
* [For the prevention of brain-sprain, i offer the following not just reformatted but partially rewritten, as suggested by the type styles.  Jerzy(t) 18:56 & 01:58, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)] 
*: As a follower of Thich Nhat Hanh for many years,   the undersigned  this editor feels qualified to state that he TNH is never referred to as Nhat alone. He is usually called Thay or Thich Nhat Hanh. [By User:82.44.202.14 09:45, 2004 Dec 29, at the end of the page but clearly in response to either my 20:50, 2004 Jan 16, contrib (now 2 'graphs above), or to the usage in the article which they changed 2 minutes earlier. Noted by Jerzy(t) 18:56, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC).]
*Nhat Hanh is a single, 2 part name. Nhat is vietnamese roughly for First class, or Best quality, and Hanh is roughly right conduct or good nature. To just say Nhat is inappropriate (adjective without a noun :-P) [By User:165.154.46.205 02:58, 2005 Jan 10, immediately following Jerzy's 20:50, 2004 Jan 16, contrib above in this section.  At 3:02 they also contribued the same first two sentences (but omitted the last), immediately following the "As a follower..." contrib that still immediately precedes this. All as noted by Jerzy(t) 18:56, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC), and reformated.]
*:[Jerzy made the following response to the first, three-sentence, version of the twice appearing contrib. --Jerzy(t) 01:58, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)]
** If that's a problem in Vietnamese, it's a problem when speaking/writing Vietnamese. English, on the other hand, is full of surnames (various colors, Small), that are English adjectives, and of surnames, like Schwarz and Klein, that are adjectives in other languages. The transformation of such words from adjectives into proper names (and thus nouns) poses no problem in English nor in English 'pedias. --Jerzy(t) 15:59, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC) & 01:58, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC) 
*:[Jerzy made the following non-overlapping response to the combination of the "As a follower..." contrib and the second, two-sentence, version of the twice appearing contrib. --Jerzy(t) 01:58, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)]
** OK, so he changed all his names to words that if not treated as names are make incredibly vague, and outrageous, PoV claims about him; his followers' accepting that PoV does not bind the rest of the world; and it has already been shown that the rest of the world adheres to no single version. In particular, 
*** Thich is still understood in English as being equivalent to Western titles like "Venerable", 
*** "Nhat Hanh" is what distinguishes him from other monks; 
*** he's Vietnamese, so we need much better reasons than this not to treat "Nhat" like a surname and "Hahn" like a given name. 
**--Jerzy(t) 15:59, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC)
**: I don't quite agree with your objection. A lot of people's names constitute POV claims if they are taken literally. My given name literally means "gift of God", but people don't normally object to calling me that even if its accuracy remains unproven. The current Pope changed his name to "John Paul"; John means "God is merciful", which is clearly also a POV claim, but would you go back to calling him Karol Wojtyla?
**: Accordingly, I'm uncomfortable with following text from the article:
**::"Apparently neither "Nhat" nor "Hanh" -- which approximate the roles of surname and given name, respectively, in referring to him in English -- was part of his name at birth. "Nhat" approximates "first-class", or "of best quality", in English; "Hanh" approximates "right conduct" or "good nature". 
**: My concern about this is: what is the evidence that "Nhat" and "Hanh" approximate a surname and a given name? This strikes me as simplistic and marginally POV, because Thich could easily be seen as occupying the spot where most Vietnamese people keep their surnames. - Nat Krause 17:29, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: [Two more individually signed bullet points by User:MatthewJ, that appear relvant in a previous section, but not in this one, moved by Jerzy(t) 03:41, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC) to #translated as Venerable?]
=== Renaming ===
In Vietnamese he is never known as "Nhat Hanh", always "Thich Nhat Hanh".  It's fairly rude to refer to a person in a respected position by just their personal name (full name is usually preferred).  Regardless of the origin of the honorary title "Thich", most Vietnamese consider it part of his name.  Including a person's title in the article name is not without precedents in the English Wikipedia (Pope XYZ).  I think this article should be at Thich Nhat Hanh instead of Nhat Hanh. DHN 18:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate Use of "Nhat" 

message: In Vietnamese he is never known as "Nhat Hanh", always "Thich Nhat Hanh".  It's fairly rude to refer to a person in a respected position by just their personal name (full name is usually preferred).  Regardless of the origin of the honorary title "Thich", most Vietnamese consider it part of his name.  Including a person's title in the article name is not without precedents in the English Wikipedia (Pope XYZ).  I think this article should be at Thich Nhat Hanh instead of Nhat Hanh. DHN 18:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming 

message: I've moved the pronunciation to a more reasonable place, and converted it to the standard IPA, since the Style Manual states that "Ad-hoc pronunciation guides are discouraged."  However, since I neither speak Vietnamese nor am very familiar with IPA, this may need some touching up from someone with more knowledge in either, or, preferably, both of these areas.
Also, I'm wondering if accent marks should be used throughout the article, specifically in the "Names applied to him" section.  Or is it common to leave accent marks off of Vietnamese words?
Still new at this... —Nogard5 09:01, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
:I tried giving an IPA transliteration at Thich Quang Duc, but instead of correcting it someone just deleted the whole thing. -Tydaj 2 July 2005 19:44 (UTC)
:The Vietnamese language and Vietnamese phonology pages would suggest that his name should be pronounced . --Whimemsz 20:50, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: I have to confess that I'm really not sure why coverage of Ven. Thich Nhat Hahn's teachings was removed, and why they aren't given more coverage in this article. The value of the article is not just biographical; rather, it is also valuable from the standpoint of Buddhist studies. In this sense, including information on Thay's teachings is no different from including information on the teachings of religious figures such as the Maharesh Mahesh Yogi or H.H. Pope Jone Paul II. As Thay's teachings are very unique and also quite influental in Euro-American convert Buddhism, it seems all the more appropriate to cover them in the article.xanandax 21:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that any material was removed. Go ahead and add material if you can. — goethean ॐ 22:00, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, that was the impression that I got from item #3, above. I'll add some stuff later, then, when I get some spare time. — xanandax 15:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Teachings