Talk:50th Armored Division (United States)

message: Now it is erased. Memories gone. I was one of the last recruits in Riverdale, joined 1990. My brother also served in HQ in riverdale. HQ and Echo was in Riverdale, it has been to long for me to remember the where the other companies were located. would be nice if some one knew, and updated the post 3rd 113th mech inf 50th AD for short. SFC Beacher and SFC Revlant were NCOs there during my time from 1990-1992 67.86.197.192 (talk) 08:50, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: , you have about 72 hours to remove all the lineage references from all the additions to the division articles you've been making, because lineages DO NOT SPECIFY which battalions are assigned to which brigades. Watching the sequence of your edits you can see you're working from a pre-existing source, not the lineages, as to which battalions are assigned to which brigades. Cite it, or watch me remove all the 1989 orders of battle!! YOU ARE FALSIFYING REFERENCES!!
Fix this, or at the 72 hour mark, I will post a detailed description of your lies at WT:MILHIST. FYI   Buckshot06 (talk) 13:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just checked http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc. As I suspected, the list of battalions in 1st /2nd/3rd Brigades lines up exactly, as does for the divisional aviation brigade (that should be 'Combat Aviation Brigade, 50th Armored Division', according to CMH, though informally yes often called 4th Bde). Why did you not CITE the list of battalions in the line brigades? Why did you leave the citations off? You did for everything else!! Buckshot06 (talk) 14:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   - threats, personal attacks, accusation of falsifications, insults, ultimatums, article ownership. I see no reason to engage with such a rude personal attack. FYI: I am not working off microarmormayhem. And the information there lines up, because it is correct. When you are ready for a more constructive approach to improving the article, I will engage with you. Best regards, noclador (talk) 18:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   and  - if you have the time could you please have a look at the organization information below and let me know where the sourcing is still insufficient. Thank you, noclador (talk) 19:29, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Thank you . While I need to apologise unreservedly to  for my tone and temper, this discrepancy is at the heart of what I was concerned about. The sources need to match what is being cited. *Only* microarmormayhem, in any of the post Isby & Kamps 1985 data that I have ever seen, tries to claim particular battalions are assigned to particular brigades. :If Noclador has an additional source which is not microarmormayhem, then tell us what it is; I do not understand what all the secrecy is about; better still, post it on the internet somewhere so the orbating community can examine it. Andy Johnson himself is working off screeds of 1980s official U.S. documentation, and Louis Vieuxbill writing his incredible British Army of Rhine magnum opus cites large number of official documents. What is the source? Without properly revealing the source, I will continue to have to point out these detailed inconsistencies!! Buckshot06 (talk) 08:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The equipment is not too hard to verify, however, and the listing of battalions by brigade is clearly from microarmormayhem. For example, it can be seen that 3rd Battalion, 102nd Armor converted from Pattons to M60A3s in 1989 from these newspaper clippings. Kges1901 (talk) 12:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Equipment is easy to source, because by May 1987 the M48 Patton was retired in all army / reserve / and national guard units, and all units, which did not receive M1 Abrams tanks had either M60A3 or M60A3 TTS tanks. The only National Guard units, which had for certain had received M1 Abrams were the 2-252, 1-198, 2-198, and 1-108 Armor. The same applies for the aviation units - Abrams units also received M2/M3 Bradley vehicles, while the M60A3 units remained with the M113. As per Army of Excellence TO&E the Cavalry units of the 4th Brigade had therefore a mix of AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa, and M60A3, while the aviation units had AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa and some UH-1 Iroquois. The AH-64 Apache was being introduced for units in Germany, Corps-aviation assets, and CONUS Abrams units first. The OH-58D Kiowa was earmarked for frontline units too. The second citation  says "completely fails" isn't a source for the equipment, but only to show the unit was assigned to the division in 1989. The equipment listed is as per Army of Excellence TO&E, which all active units, all round out brigades, and the 29th, 35th, 40th, 49th, and 50th National Guard divisions were organized according to. noclador (talk) 16:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  If it is easy to source, cite it. If the citation is for what you say it is for, it is in the wrong place, and currently wrongly indicates that it is citing the tank. You need to do much better. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 00:23, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  For equipment, just add a source stating that all NG units had M60A3s by then and for M113s that it was the standard APC and that infantry battalions were equipped with APCs. Kges1901 (talk) 12:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just removed 5-102 Armor from the listing of the 1st Brigade. Of the three sources, one is a lineage, which lists 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Battalions as elements of the division in 1975, but says nothing subsequent to that regarding battalions until 1991; one is a general officer bio that substantiates Dover as the battalion location, but does not give a brigade assignment; and the third is the 1988 annual report, that only mentions 5-102 Armor with a planned deployment to Fort Drum, NY, from 14 - 28 July 1990. None of these references makes any claims about which brigade 5-102 Armor was assigned to in 1989. I will copy this note to the main talk page. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  FALSE references 

message: At the end of the Cold War the division was a unit of the New Jersey Army National Guard, with a round-out brigade from the Texas Army National Guard. The division was organized according to the Army of Excellence table of organization and equipment:
* 50th Armored Division, Somerset, New Jersey
** Headquarters & Headquarters Company
** 1st Brigade, Woodbridge, New Jersey
*** Headquarters & Headquarters Company
*** 1st Battalion, 102nd Armor, Phillipsburg (M60A3 Patton main battle tanks)
*** 2nd Battalion, 102nd Armor, West Orange (M60A3 Patton main battle tanks)
*** 2nd Battalion, 113th Infantry Newark (M113 armored personnel carriers)
*** 3rd Battalion, 113th Infantry, Riverdale (M113 armored personnel carriers)
** 2nd Brigade, Cherry Hill, New Jersey
*** Headquarters & Headquarters Company
*** 3rd Battalion, 102nd Armor Vineland (M60A3 Patton main battle tanks)
*** 5th Battalion, 102nd Armor Dover (M60A3 Patton main battle tanks)
*** 1st Battalion, 114th Infantry, Woodbury (M113 armored personnel carriers)
*** 2nd Battalion, 114th Infantry Long Branch (M113 armored personnel carriers)
** 36th Brigade, Houston, Texas (Texas Army National Guard)
*** Headquarters & Headquarters Company
*** 7th Battalion, 112th Armor Bryan, Texas (M60A3 Patton main battle tanks)
*** 8th Battalion, 112th Armor, Dallas, Texas (M60A3 Patton main battle tanks)
** 4th Brigade (Aviation), Trenton Army Airfield, New Jersey
*** Headquarters & Headquarters Company
*** 5th Squadron, 117th Cavalry (Reconnaissance), Westfield Army Airfield (M60A3 Patton main battle tanks, AH-1F Cobra & OH-58C Kiowa helicopters)
*** 1st Battalion, 150th Aviation (Attack), Trenton Army Airfield (AH-1F Cobra & OH-58C Kiowa helicopters)
*** Company D, 150th Aviation (General Support), Burlington Army Airfield (Vermont Army National Guard) (UH-1H Iroquois)
*** Company E, 150th Aviation (Assault), New Castle Army Airfield (Delaware Army National Guard) (UH-1H Iroquois)
** 50th Armored Division Artillery, Trenton, New Jersey
*** Headquarters & Headquarters Battery
*** 1st Battalion, 112th Field Artillery Cherry Hill (18 × M109A3 155mm self-propelled howitzers)
*** 3rd Battalion, 112th Field Artillery, Morristown (18 × M109A3 155mm self-propelled howitzers)
*** 4th Battalion, 112th Field Artillery Lawrenceville (12 × M110A2 203mm self-propelled howitzers)
*** 1st Battalion, 133rd Field Artillery Beaumont (Texas Army National Guard) (18 × M109A3 155mm self-propelled howitzers)
*** Battery A, 197th Field Artillery (Target Acquisition) (New Hampshire Army National Guard)
** 50th Armored Division Support Command, East Orange, New Jersey
*** Headquarters & Headquarters Company
*** 50th Support Battalion (Main)
*** 250th Support Battalion (Forward)
*** 344th Support Battalion (Forward)
*** 536th Support Battalion (Forward) (Texas Army National Guard)
*** Company F, 150th Aviation (Aviation Intermediate Maintenance), Dover
** 3rd Battalion, 200th Air Defense Artillery (New Mexico Army National Guard) (MIM-72 Chaparral, M163 Vulcan & FIM-92 Stinger)
** 104th Engineer Battalion, Teaneck
** 250th Signal Battalion, Plainfield
** 550th Military Intelligence Battalion, Pedricktown
** 50th Military Police Company, Somerset
** 50th Chemical Company (New Hampshire Army National Guard)
** 50th Armored Division Band
Well, just examining the first two citations, the citation for 1st Battalion, 102nd Armor, Phillipsburg doesn't say that unit was part of the 1st Brigade, it just sources the fact that Wondrack was Executive Officer, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 102nd Armor, New Jersey Army National Guard, Phillipsburg, New Jersey from May 86 to Sep 89, so it only tells us that 1st Battalion, 102nd Armor, New Jersey Army National Guard was in Phillipsburg, New Jersey from May 86 to Sep 89. You need a separate citation for the fact this battalion was part of the 1st Brigade in 1989. The second citation, that it was equipped with M60 Patton MBTs in 1989, is not in the source that I can see. Given this, I don't propose to go through the whole thing, but essentially the first one partly fails verification, and the second one completely fails. While the sources are reliable, this is a unacceptable standard of citation due to failed verification. WP:V is a core content policy, and must be complied with. The rest of this obviously needs to be checked for verification. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 00:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you . While I need to apologise unreservedly to  for my tone and temper, this discrepancy is at the heart of what I was concerned about. The sources need to match what is being cited. *Only* microarmormayhem, in any of the post Isby & Kamps 1985 data that I have ever seen, tries to claim particular battalions are assigned to particular brigades. :If Noclador has an additional source which is not microarmormayhem, then tell us what it is; I do not understand what all the secrecy is about; better still, post it on the internet somewhere so the orbating community can examine it. Andy Johnson himself is working off screeds of 1980s official U.S. documentation, and Louis Vieuxbill writing his incredible British Army of Rhine magnum opus cites large number of official documents. What is the source? Without properly revealing the source, I will continue to have to point out these detailed inconsistencies!! Buckshot06 (talk) 08:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The equipment is not too hard to verify, however, and the listing of battalions by brigade is clearly from microarmormayhem. For example, it can be seen that 3rd Battalion, 102nd Armor converted from Pattons to M60A3s in 1989 from these newspaper clippings. Kges1901 (talk) 12:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Equipment is easy to source, because by May 1987 the M48 Patton was retired in all army / reserve / and national guard units, and all units, which did not receive M1 Abrams tanks had either M60A3 or M60A3 TTS tanks. The only National Guard units, which had for certain had received M1 Abrams were the 2-252, 1-198, 2-198, and 1-108 Armor. The same applies for the aviation units - Abrams units also received M2/M3 Bradley vehicles, while the M60A3 units remained with the M113. As per Army of Excellence TO&E the Cavalry units of the 4th Brigade had therefore a mix of AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa, and M60A3, while the aviation units had AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa and some UH-1 Iroquois. The AH-64 Apache was being introduced for units in Germany, Corps-aviation assets, and CONUS Abrams units first. The OH-58D Kiowa was earmarked for frontline units too. The second citation  says "completely fails" isn't a source for the equipment, but only to show the unit was assigned to the division in 1989. The equipment listed is as per Army of Excellence TO&E, which all active units, all round out brigades, and the 29th, 35th, 40th, 49th, and 50th National Guard divisions were organized according to. noclador (talk) 16:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  If it is easy to source, cite it. If the citation is for what you say it is for, it is in the wrong place, and currently wrongly indicates that it is citing the tank. You need to do much better. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 00:23, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  For equipment, just add a source stating that all NG units had M60A3s by then and for M113s that it was the standard APC and that infantry battalions were equipped with APCs. Kges1901 (talk) 12:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just removed 5-102 Armor from the listing of the 1st Brigade. Of the three sources, one is a lineage, which lists 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Battalions as elements of the division in 1975, but says nothing subsequent to that regarding battalions until 1991; one is a general officer bio that substantiates Dover as the battalion location, but does not give a brigade assignment; and the third is the 1988 annual report, that only mentions 5-102 Armor with a planned deployment to Fort Drum, NY, from 14 - 28 July 1990. None of these references makes any claims about which brigade 5-102 Armor was assigned to in 1989. I will copy this note to the main talk page. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization 1989