Talk:Spinster

message: Could I please change the title of the notable spinster section? In the article itself, it is admitted that in most modern day definitions spinster is "a derogatory term, referring or alluding to a stereotype of an older woman who is unmarried, childless, prissy, and repressed".  A previous editor said we should stick to the title of the page, but in the equivalent Bachelor page, the exactly equivalent section is titled "Men Who Never Married" so I don't think changing the title to "Women Who Never Married" will cause considerable confusion.  I think this language is more neutral and better suited to an encyclopedia, and breaks down disparities between genders.  I hope I was not being disruptive!   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saver002 (talk • contribs) 18:06, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Saver002.  The word Spinster has already been referenced as derogatory.  This is an article about  the etymology and usage of the word as well as about  how unmarried women, not necessarily always referred to as 'spinsters,' have been portrayed in popular culture.  Having a list of real life examples of unmarried women seems to be important in an article that includes cultural as well as etymological descriptions.   I support the more neutral description of Women Who Never Married, similar to Men Who Never Married under the Bachelor article. ABF99 (talk) 04:14, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Title of Notable Spinster section may be offensive

message: Elizabeth I is notable for never marrying, given the importance of marriage to the political future of an absolutist monarchy.   ProfessorFokker 09:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of famous spinsters 

message: There's a bit of a conflict between this and  Old Maid, the card game. Looking up Old Maid instantly takes you to this page, making the article on the card game much harder to find. I'm posting this on the Old Maid discussion page as well. Vadigor 21:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Maid (card game) 

message: The descriptions of modern "positive redefinition" of "spinster" only mentions spinsterhood in relation to men and marriage. What about queer spinsters? Asexual spinsters?Illusi0nist 23:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In today's rewrite, the distinction is made here: feminism "asserts that even heterosexual women might wilfully choose not to marry"; by implication, gay/Queer women are presumed not to want traditional marriage to a man. I also inserted a reference to lesbianism as one of the 18th/19th century stereotypes of spinsters. -- LisaSmall T/C 07:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: in modern times the term has fell out of use, rather than been redefined. The term has to do with traditional gender roles. the male equivalent is a bachelor. therefore we can concluded that the modern term is a bachelorette.  98.206.155.53 (talk) 07:28, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heterosexist? 

message: In german, the word "spinnen" means both to spin thread and spider.  Used as a verb, "spinst" it means one is senile or crazy.  This could point to the terms origin being a mocking term for a senile elderyly(spider-like) spinstress, by calling them a "spinster"(adding "-er" in German has the same meaning as in English: "one who does something".)  It seems possible, as there has been quite a bit of exchange between German and English over the centuries.  Just thought I'd share my musings.--Scorpion451 05:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible origin

message: The opening paragraph starts: "A spinster (or old maid) is a woman or girl of marriageable age who has been unwilling or unable to marry and, therefore, has no children."
Why do they therefore have no children? There are plenty of unwed/single mothers in the world. Is an unwed/single mother a spinster or is a spinster a woman that has never married and also has no children?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.92.243 (talk) 12:20, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  and, therefore, has no children 

message: The current article contains a lot of information that, IMO, is not needed, and
often goes into the realm of a discussion of a much larger phenomenon in a
manner that is not really in order.
I suggest that this page is reduced to briefly explain the expression;
possibly, by limiting the text to the introduction (which, by the way, is not
internally consistent).
The rest of the discussion should be either removed or moved to more
appropriate topics after being filtered. (Such topics could include feminism,
women's roles, and similar. Considering the length of the article, I am not 
able to give anything even near a complete matching at this time.)
88.77.132.122 (talk) 19:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest drastic reduction of article 

message: I removed this from the intro section:
In late 2009 the term spinster became more synonymous with a little stirling girl called Frances who lay in bed all day with her hair tied up whilst she slept.
There's no citation, and I can't even figure out what it's referring to.  I'm assuming it's some recent pop culture reference, but even if that's true, I don't think it's commonly known or relevant.  If someone wants to add it back, please dig up a citation first and justify it here. James A. Stewart (talk) 19:37, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed dubious "Francis" claim in intro 

message: You may want to include Miss Marple as an example of a spinster heroine. --Error (talk) 22:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miss Marple 

message: Whence comes this notion of a spinster having to be 38 years or older?  There is no reference to that particular "fact" mentioned.  In the sense used by the Book of Common Prayer, a spinster is any unmarried woman of marriageable age, and that is how it used in the Banns of Marriage.  Beowulf (talk) 12:58, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: what is the marriageable age? 98.206.155.53 (talk) 07:22, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In most Western countries it's over 18. Roger (talk) 13:26, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  38? 

message: why this term? 98.206.155.53 (talk) 07:31, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  pair bond? 

message: "childless" is incompatible with Bette Davis playing a "single mother"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.128.235 (talk) 02:01, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Make up your mind. 

message: Is this section useful? I don't see why a reader would come here looking for examples or how examples help them understand the term or its cultural connotations.  jorgenev (talk) 04:36, 6 April 2011
True. I think it was probably first included in order to make the article sound more positive, but the inclusion of Lizzie Borden in the list hardly helps on THAT front, does it? Plus there's the debate over whom can be considered a "spinster" according to the commonly held definition. I mean, Jane Austen was 42 when she died. That meant she was definitely "on the shelf" according to the customs of her time and social group, but so was every woman over 25! Do we really think that an unmarried woman of 42 deserves the term "spinster"? She probably hadn't hit menarche yet, so not only could she still theoretically have been married, but she could still have had children, too! If I'm not careful I'll start preaching from my soapbox about how this is one more reason the term shouldn't be in common usage these days anyway, but to the point: do you think this section should be removed from the article?Artekka (talk) 23:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celebrity spinsters 

message: This article has only passing mentions of the term spinster in other English speaking nations. I do not know today's practice in the US (2014) but when I first bought property with a friend in the US, the legal documents identified me as spinster and my friend as divorced. I thought that men were not labelled as to their marital status in similar documents. Perhaps editors with knowledge beyond England and its 19th century marriage banns could add to the legal use or non-use of the term in documents like property ownership.  --Prairieplant (talk) 23:32, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  all British, there are other English speaking nations 

message: I propose that Catherinette and Sheng nu be merged into Spinster. I think that the content in the Sheng nu & Catherinette articles can easily be explained in the context of Spinster, and the Spinster article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Sheng nu & Catherinette will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. KhabarNegar Talk 05:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary is not a valid rationale for merger in this case. The articles spend very little time defining the terms, they cite already existing dictionary definitions, but rather spend significant portion of the article looking at the etymology and cultural histories and impact. Using WP:NOT in this instance is not correct nor the point  and I were trying to make either. Each culture treats it differently. I would need to see some significant support in reliable sources to support your theory as in all my reading on the matter very few academic sources are willing to make that statement. Otherwise I worry the point of merging is largely based on original research and an unnecessary need to merge articles other for the sake of oversimplifying a complex social culture. Mkdwtalk 14:18, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is an example of original research where you incorrectly redirected 3S Women to Spinster. 3S does not mean "Spinster". If you think it does, I would like to see your reliable source that makes that comparison. The reason I say that is because I know from when I brought sheng nu to good article status that 3S means "seventies, single, and stuck" and directly relates to the word "sheng nu". This is directly mentioned in this New York Times article, this Times of India article, and this China Daily News article. 3S is almost entirely predominately used in Asia. In fact I have never seen it in reference to spinster. Mkdwtalk 14:25, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: The pejorative use of "spinster" seems to be much more common in America than in the UK. Over here the word isn't necessarily connotative of an "old maid", so I'm rather disappointed to see so much of the article devoted to this aspect of the word. Could this perhaps be addressed? Thanks. RomanSpa (talk) 09:57, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too American? 

message: This term is obsolete and should be termed such.184.145.94.21 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 20:59, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ridiculous 

message: Calling something "notable" most assuredly does not MAKE it notable. That list of examples is at best trivia. Worse, none of the entries calls out a credible source that would support their being included under the "spinster" banner. It IS NOT the job of other editors to support the fleeting fanboy notions of whover populated the list. Therefore, it can be removed at any time. Weeb Dingle (talk) 16:21, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As mentioned in my response to  Saver002's earlier comment, I believe the list should stay, but should revert to the original title of Women Who Never Married.    There is example after example on this page of fictional women who never married; it seems a bit odd NOT to balance those descriptions with a list of actual women who never married.  Notability is conferred upon these women by the very fact that they have a Wikipedia article to begin with.   I do agree that references supporting the fact that they never married would be useful. ABF99 (talk) 04:29, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  what may go away 

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thread_title:  External links modified