Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 37

message: "ON THE CHURCH AND THE GERMAN REICH" MARCH 14, 1937
Quote:
21. In your country, Venerable Brethren, voices are swelling into a chorus urging people to leave the Church, and among the leaders there is more than one whose official position is intended to create the impression that this infidelity to Christ the King constitutes a signal and meritorious act of loyalty to the modern State. Secret and open measures of intimidation, the threat of economic and civic disabilities, bear on the loyalty of certain classes of Catholic functionaries, a pressure which violates every human right and dignity.
Clearly, this shows that the public Apostasy of the Reich could no longer be ignored, and in couched terms (Vatican-speak)the Pope refers to Hitler indirectly. It would be obvious that the 1919 date was his first public act of denying his Catholic upbringing. It has become fashionable to invoke Godwins law in discussing the Church. Wikipedia should not use the Hitler article and almost universal Catholic baptism in his region of Germany to link Hilterism and Catholicism. Dominick (TALK) 20:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That link does not mention Hitler - Strangly the question of Hilterism and Catholicism was not an issue until the Catholic POV made a meal of it. Agathoclea 22:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This encyclical is evidence against the argument that Pope Pius XI did never acted to do something to try to prevent the Holocaust, and to the extent that it was written by Eugenio Pacelli, (he attributed it to the Vatican Secratary of State), it is also evidence against the argument that Pope Pius XII did too little to prevent the atrocities of the Holocaust, athough he could have done a lot more and the role of the Church was instrumental in both legitizing and putting Hitler into power in the first place. Still, while this is an admirable encyclical, it does not repudiate Hitler himself, his categorization as a member and his status still as a Catholic, albeit a fascist one whose Nazi polticies were coming in conflict with various groups and people among them those within the Church as well. But, this is not unique in history and the verdict afterwards had to so with the historical outcome. Had Hitler won or not carried out the holocaust but remained a successful politicitian, I highy doubt that Christians would deny claiming him as their own today.Giovanni33 05:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And if Hitler had not been carried out the holocaust, would you be so eager to insert him into that category? AnnH ♫ 08:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But, ofcourse. I strive for accuracy and NPOV. Oh, and even if Hitler's crazed Christianity didnt lead him to be one of the most hated mass murderer in history, I'd not dislike him any less (like a Jerry Fallwell or other Chiristian fascist).  But the Christians would probably embrace him (the conservative ones, at least) as they virtually they all did in during his monsterous rule. Giovanni33 09:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler's Apostacy in the Encyclical of Pope Pius XI

message: Too much noise and nonsense has filled up all the pervious sections. One comment caught my attention:
Actually even excommunication may not be an issue. According to the 'catholic encyclopedia', it seems AH would count as a catholic just by the fact of his baptism - it doesn't seem to recognise the idea of a 'lapsed catholic' being no longer a catholic. In fact (in the entry on excommunication) it says: "The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced". (Noting that for the purposes of that encyclopedia christian = catholic: "the Christianity of which we speak is that which we find realized in the Catholic Church alone; hence, we are not concerned here with those forms which are embodied in the various non-Catholic Christian sects, whether schismatical or heretical."
First of all, the link needs to be provided to this article obviously. This is obviously an authoritative source on the definition of what it means to be Catholic. Second, somone responded that one can still be an "apostasy" and that this is "worse than non-Christian".  Can I have references for the assertion that apostasy cancels one's Catholicism and renders one worse than non-Christian. The Catholic Encylopedia seems to be saying exactly the contrary. It seems that this is the nub of the question right here.--Lacatosias 09:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lac, the CE doesn't contradict what I wrote. CE says that one cannot be unbaptized or unchristened. That is true when speaking on the basis of Catholic theology but not on a secular basis (see my reply further down, section "what does this mean"). The CE doesn't contradict my "worse than non-Christian", it just doesn't comment on this. My comment has its basis in Scripture, I think letter to the Hebrews. (self-professed) Str1977 (smile back) 22:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, it seems pretty clear. We have only one definition of 'catholic' so far - someone who has been baptised in the faith. This definition is accepted by Str1977, but then dismissed as a merely 'canonical' or technical definition - but it's the only sourced definition we've got. If there is another more relevant 'secular' definition of catholic someone needs to provide it, with references. And/or if, as some seem to claim, he stopped being a catholic through apostasy or other means, they need to provide references for this. (References that actually name Hitler and state in so many words, without the need for original research by editors, that he stopped being a catholic.) But so far Hitler is a catholic by the only sourced definition we've got, and the category should stay unless/until that changes.Bengalski 09:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, I will not object to Hitler being described as a catholic, but I have to laugh at "References that actually name Hitler and state in so many words, without the need for original research by editors" - Mit Brennenger Sorge, cited above, is absolutely, clearly, 100% directed straight at Hitler, as anyone with a shred of knowledge of Hitler's ideology can see, and condemns him as "no believer in God", a "blasphemer", a "prophet of nothingness", his ideology as "aggressive paganism". Who else exalted "race and blood" etc. etc. Camillus (talk) 10:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But here we need a number of leaps of original research, some bigger than others. 1. - the encyclical is specifically referring to Hitler. 2 - the encyclical is stating that H is auto-excommunicated. 3 - that means that he was no longer a catholic. If these points are so obvious, it really shouldn't be this hard to find a published scholar making them.Bengalski 11:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: We could do with more editors pointing to references that back up their claims - as I did with the catholic encyclopedia article above - and rather less unsourced venting of personal views. Can none of our catholic editors point us to a sourced definition of 'catholic'? Bengalski 10:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, now I'm just confused. Did someone actually insert the comment "Once a Catholic always a Catholic" into the article? If so, I agree that this is definitely misleading and inappropriate  POV. What I was talking about was that it is not unencyclopedic to insert something like "It is a theological precept of the Catholic Church that baptism leaves an undelible mark on the soul". That would be a simple statement of a fact. However, I am not suggesting, in the context of an Adolf Hitler article, that the following argument now follows: "It is a theologival precept of the Chirch that baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. Hilter was baptized. Therefore Hitler was a Catholic." That argument is not valid. I might be helpful if I actually took a look at the context of this thing.--Lacatosias 11:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not do some research to find out the religions that Peter Sutcliffe, Ted Bundy, Roy Whiting, Jesse Timmendequas, Fred West, etc., were baptized into (regardless of whether or not they practiced) and then add them to categories of "famous Presbyterians", "famous Baptists", etc? Hmm... good point actually. I stated ealier that I think categories are ridiculous for precisely this reason. Responses?--Lacatosias 11:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no one inserted "once a Catholic, always...", in the article. About these other characters, I'd have no problem categorizing their religion, even if it did not have a promient role in their thinking, unlike how his religion deeply affected Hitler's thinking and actions. But, if Ted Bundy ever ruled absolute power over a land and professed his Christianity as a major motivational factor in all his writings, and speeches, and had the support of the religious institutions who helped him into power, then it would be very POV to refuse to categorize him as a Christian polititian. The object here is not to make the Chruch look bad, or good, just to report the historical facts in a NPOV way. This means, in practical puproses, despite its limitations, not taking away the category of Catholic for Hitler, given that the objective and well supported facts support this identification for good or bad. Giovanni33 11:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Being a Catholic is about being a Christian, but with the distinguising differiating aspects of this particular version of Christianity. But since its about being a Christian, its not as easy to clearly say who is not to be counted as one and who is in any definitive sense, but it would be easier given the structural heirchy of the Catholic Church. That is, simply for the Church authorities to say so, to excommunicate him. Or, it could be that Hitler was not baptised in the Catholic tradition. But, he was. Therefore, its largely based on what he believed and if he bellieved it sincerely. Throughout his's life, Hitler showed a remarkable tendency toward conservative Christian faith in God, and saw himself as a reformer and a savior of the German people, and he acted according to his beliefs. He called himself a Christian and Catholic, and spoke in admirable terms about Jesus. At no time did Hitler denounce his own Christianity or Catholicism, and in fact, appealed to Christ as a fighter, just as he saw himself as a fighter. He was baptized, he took the sacraments and received Communion. This makes him Catholic, Was he a devout church goer? No. But, many are not. Did he appeal to prayerful priests? No but again not necessary. See, Christianity does not exist "out there'. It only exists in the minds of certain people who profess a belief in God and Christ. That's why we can only appeal to the direct words from an individual to determine their belief (outside of some ritual that Hitler did follow for the  most part), and Hitler expressed his belief with brutal honesty. Here is a Catholic article entilted, "What does it mean to be Catholic" Giovanni33 11:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New section

message: Stop it, please!! This whole hullaballoo about a single category is an extraodinary amateurish embarassment to Wikipedia. Categories, as I understand it,  were designed to make it easier for people to find things on an almost unlimited encyclopedia like this one. That is all they were designed for. They were not designed to make a religious or political point by radically simplifying complex questions. They do not exist in other encyclopedias.  That's my last word on all this nonsense. --Lacatosias 12:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know why some folks are afraid to attempt gaining consensus.  Clearly, the "RC politicians" category is controversial and disputed.  Please gain a consensus for inclusion before simply adding it again.  What on earth is there to fear?  Why ignore WP policy and practice?  KHM03 (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no consensus to begin with, and the claim that there is a Catholic conspiricy to remove information from wikipedia is offensive. This was an embarassing issue for wikipedia, because people would like to build a case for things like "Pius XII didn't stop the Holocaust" even though Pius XII helped establish sanctuaries for Jews in Italy and even though a number of victims were also Priests, Nuns and Catholics of all types. One way to promote this is by promoting the veiw that Hitler was a Catholic "in good standing". Some editors take glee in taking stabs at the Church, and any item they can use to stab with is a good one. Nothing about Hitlers outlook was Catholic. Wouldn't that be trivia? Is not Hitler's membership in the secret cults of the 1920's be more important? Why didnt his paganism get more play? Dominick (TALK) 13:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, however that may be, my own vote is to include Hitler is the category of memebrs of the human species and then include the human species as a failed sort of being, citing Hilter and all those who aide him in any way as some of the infinite number of examples. Have a lovely afternoon!!--Lacatosias 13:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hilter? Monty Python episode 12?AvB ÷ talk 15:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: People are asserting the Church did not publically name him, as in "Mr. Hitler", and denounce him, so therefore he was a Catholic in good standing. The encyclical went as far as any Church document of the time, in denouncing any Layman.  If there is no official status, an excommunication is carried out as far as the nature of the act, Latae Sentencae. If the person is ordained or took public vow, the Church will publish that so and so is no longer to carry out their office. Obviously, the Church also had theological reasons to not excommunicate Hitler publically, as no public ministry was entrusted to Mr. Hitler. Dominick (TALK) 17:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway - I have inserted some text into the categorypage based on what I found on its talkpage. I feel that should take the whole POV out of any inclusion. Being a Catholic at any stage in life has a lasting effect even on people who no longer want to be associated with that church so there is some reason to have this category. OTOH I would not mind to have all people-by-religion categories deleted in one big swoop so save all the bickering. Agathoclea 17:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Neat. I hadn't realized that was a possibility. AvB ÷ talk 17:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Being a Catholic ...has a lasting effect" ... Really? How do you reach that conclusion? And the category page in question refers to people who are "born Catholic": how does that work? I am a humble, clueless shtove 00:06, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: we are now moving away more an more from Hitler ... "lasting effect" it will shape their actions on a subconcious level and they will either hold certain traits associated with Catholics or deliberately go the opposite way. Analogue to the Muslim who converts to Christianity and still will not eat pork (others might over compensate). "born Catholic" expression used by the populus due to the fact that children of Catholic parents are genearally babtised within days dispite their trying to indicate their dislike of the fact by heavy screaming. Agathoclea 06:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However much modern day Catholics might not like it, Hitler was a Catholic and its clear to most thta his religious views shaped his thinking deeply. He might have been a bad Catholic, and maybe this can be shown to be more than simply a POV (according to Catholic doctrine), however, there is nothing in either Catholic doctrine, or more importantly, the standards we use as a society for refering to who is Catholic, that can deny Hitler being a Catholic dictator (there have been many very bloody dictators who killed others, including other Catholics, and yet their status is not disputed). Finally, the way the category has been defined in the category board clearly says that even if it could be shown Hitler was a "lapsed Catholic" his inclusion in this category should still stand. MikaM 06:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meta-observation