Talk:Ingria

message: Which language did the Ingrians spoke? Was it related to Finnish? 1 August 2005 81.232.72.148 
: Most Izhorians (i.e., "Ingrians-proper") spoke Izhorian, which is a Finnic language, different from, but related to Finnish. The Ingrian Finns (mostly descendants of immigrants to Ingria from Finland) spoke (a dialect of) Finnish. Cheers, --3 Löwi 17:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: Perhaps the map could be revised to include both the Finnish and Russian names? Just a thought. —Khoikhoi 01:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not? But why someone want to merge Swedish Ingria into this. Simply keep it main article about this time in history of Ingria. Kahkonen 21:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible solution 

message: I see that the odious map was reuploaded. Now we have to find and add a Russian-language map of St Pete guberniya from 1900 to counterpoise the bias. I also recommend uploading the Russian-language map of Finland to History of Finland. I still fail to see the point of a map with ridiculously distorted Russian names, like "Hatsina" instead of "Gatchina" and "Markkova" instead of "Markovo". I believe they are quite meaningless in Finnish. Moreover, some evidence should be produced that these names were used in Saint Petersburg guberniya at the time, otherwise it's pure original research. --Ghirla -трёп- 05:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is a new map, hopefully we can also produce a map for the Swedish times. The old map was possibly a copyvio, so I guess that is why it was removed. I think the russian language map at Grand Duchy of Finland is actually quite apropriate. Here are two maps with witch you can compare this map with:   -- Jniemenmaa 06:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: You can see some borders of the lutheran parishes here . Those parishes were suppressed by Stalin in 1930s. The names were used among finnish-speaking, of course, because up to the 1930s most of the peasants living outside Saint Petersburg were finnish-speaking. --213.130.239.226 22:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The original source is the road map of Ingria, . "The map is a documentation of place names of the county of Ingria in different languages. The county boundaries are defined according to the Treaty of Stolbovo in 1617. The finnish names correspond to those used by the Finns in Ingria." --213.130.239.226 22:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: LOL! Krohn, your case of nationalism seems to be far gone. The only person who is given to revisionism is yourself. It is you who attempt to revise generally accepted version of history with your cheap genocide talk, a sickening WP pest of which we've seen tons on Holodomor, Armenian Genocide, Anti-Romanian discrimination, and thousands other articles. You should be aware that those genocide ravers frequently end by being blocked from editing Wikipedia, sometimes permanently. So take care and please find another channel for spreading Russophobia if you have to. --Ghirla -трёп- 12:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ingria vs. Saint Petersburg guberniya 

message: The Finnish Wikipedia has a large number of articles on both Ingria and the Leningrad Oblast, including separate articles on each of the raions and parishes of the entities. Even though these occupy the same geographic space, there seem to have a minimal relationship to each other. There are hardly any wikilinks between the two sets of articles, as if the two entities existed only in alternate realities.
A nearly similar situation exists in Kaliningrad and the Karelian Isthmus, where, after a total renewal of population, the new Soviet political entities replaced the old Finnish or German communities with little respect for the old borders. The difference with Ingria is that Finnish Ingria claims to exists, not only in the same place, but at the same time as the Russian entities.
The situation is quite plausible. Many large cities with one dominant population have existed in areas, where the rural population is of a different language, nationality or even religion. One example is Helsinki, an almost monolingual Finnish city. It is surrounded by a Swedish language countryside, that has existed for some 800 years. Only the expansion of suburbs is replacing the language. A similar situation existed in Ingria; the Finnish peasants and Lutheran parishes co-existed with Saint Petersburg and other smaller Russian cities and with the manor houses of Russian nobility.
It seems that very few Soviet or Russian sources are available on Finnish Ingria. This has been seen by some as an attempt in historical revisionism or negationism with and aim of covering the ethnic cleansing and possible genocide. 
I was surprised by the disappearance of the image without it being tagged for removal. It struck me as a possible abuse of administrator privileges, in an misguided attempt at blanking information.
A word of advice to all you russophile would-be  revisionists. This is a very sensitive subject. Please be very careful with your attempts at censorship. I do not believe you want to be associated with the "Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity". -- Petri Krohn 10:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL! Krohn, your case of nationalism seems to be far gone. The only person who is given to revisionism is yourself. It is you who attempt to revise generally accepted version of history with your cheap genocide talk, a sickening WP pest of which we've seen tons on Holodomor, Armenian Genocide, Anti-Romanian discrimination, and thousands other articles. You should be aware that those genocide ravers frequently end by being blocked from editing Wikipedia, sometimes permanently. So take care and please find another channel for spreading Russophobia if you have to. --Ghirla -трёп- 12:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternate realities

message: The Ingrian flag thumb is marked with citation needed ATM. Here are some provisional sources:  (Swedish)  -- Himasaram 14:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ingrian flag 

message: What are reasons why the link to picture  was deleted from the article? Waimea 21:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not flag of Ingria, and it was moved to North Ingria. `'mikkanarxi 22:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted picture? (flag of North Ingria, an area which attempted to get independent of Russia) 

message: Between 6 November and 14 November (8 days), over 60 edits were made to this page, and about 60 of them simply were adding and removing that iw link. 
About 30 times, the iw link was added, and precisely as many times, about 30, it was removed. In average, more than thrice a day, both actions were made.
The most eager revert warriors have been:
In the removing party erasing the link (only three of them participated in the discussion with more than one comment):
* User:Ghirlandajo about six times, wrote one comment () about this issue in the talk page, and kept reverting
* User:Grafikm fr about five times,
* User:Irpen about five times, wrote nothing about the issue in the talk page, just kept reverting
* User:Mikkalai about four times, and
* User:Pan Gerwazy about six times. 
In the party adding the link after its removal:
* User:A4 about eleven times, and
* User:Ottorahn about nine times. Of these two, both participated in discussion in talk page with several comments.
One starts to wonder why a link is so wanted to be erased. Waimea 22:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you bother to read this talk page? `'mikkanarxi 22:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The issue is not existence. The issue is core principles of wikipedias, voilated in ru-sib, and for this reason linking to their articles is strongly objected. `'mikkanarxi 22:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Objected by u and your comrades? ;-) Dut our wiki & our language exist, whether you like it or not. And it will exist in spite of every votings. So for the time being I don't know what one can do with your vandalism< and I don't have enough time for this. But I'm glad that Waimea are asking such questions. There will be another users who will ask questions too. And I'll enjoy the way how you try to justify your infinite abuse.--Ottorahn 01:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Objected by a community consensus and Wikipedia policies, to begin with. Quite good reasons... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 01:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse, can you instruct me, who are the members of mentioned community & how can I read about mentioned "consensus", and what policy do you mean? --Ottorahn 01:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert war over an iw link (sib) 

message: Somebody asked this: . Just to clarify: The warning is, of course, only directed at bots. Bots should never be designed to do controversial edits and overrule human editors. Unfortunately the pywikipedia interwiki bots are misdesigned in this respect, and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to stop them, short of telling all bot operators to never link to ru-sib at all. In effect, what we got is a bot army waging a months-long revert war against most of the local editors, mostly without even the knowledge of their operators, and that can't be tolerated. 
There is no official decision or consensus on whether this link should be there or not, either way. Only fact I can see is that the ru-sib link is controversial. If an editor, not a bot, wishes to re-open the discussion and advocate the inclusion of that link, they are obviously welcome to do so. 
By the way, I can't help noticing that on other articles there are iw links to ru-sib articles that are much worse than this one (e.g. the one from Russia), and nobody seems to have been protesting. I'm not sure why this particular link has become such a charged issue. The particular article at ru-sib seems pretty harmless. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The wikimedia Council, Jury or whatever they call their bureaucracy summarily closed cyrillic language Moldovan wikipedia, but keep this sibirskoy monstrocity despite vocal opposition expressed in voting and nasty behavior of its proponent, which, taken combined, I explain only by Russophobia. This particular article was objected because its early version contained false claims. In addition, it proparates an offensive term for some finnic peoples alleging that it is normal "sibirskoy" word.  `'Miikka 19:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, fair enough, thanks for the explanation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree that there is worse. Hamlet for instance - but there is a False Flag operation going on here. Under the guise of an encyclopedia, there is actual ethnic hatred being planted here. Not only have these things (the racial slurs and the obscenities at the end of Hamlet) not been NPOVed since they were pointed out to these "Owners" of the language (back in 2006), but in the meantime, though their number of articles has not gone up muich, they managed to add more to this pile: for instance, the talk page with the principal owner accusing the Maskali of ... Russophobia would be funny if you did not understand why they do it. --Pan Gerwazy 15:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Offensive? So do you guys understand the language? How come? I don't, and I can't say whether it is offensive. And even if I could, for sure that's not my business. What is funny is the obsession of the people hunting for ru-sib interwikis all over Wikipedia. Ok then, the circus must go on. Colchicum 16:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes we understand an artificial language which is constructed dialect of Russian peppered with lots of slang and foul language. And it is none of our business to know that some things are none of your business.  One cannot embrace the whole wild world. And your snickering off things you don't understand and not of your business doesn't show you from the best side. As if you didn't know yet that wikpedia is one big circus. And if some people didn't chase morons and vandals all over wikipedia it would have been   the largest circus ever. `'Miikka 16:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about others, but I am here not in order to show myself from whatever side. For that purpose I simply don't exist, so I've missed your point. Colchicum 16:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case, if you don't know what to say useful, just keep it to yourself. Your remark serves  nothing but to imply that we are a bunch of <insert favorite diparaging term for low intellect> who have nothing better to do. We know this already, thanks.  `'Miikka 19:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: If I, with my limited knowledge of Russian, can recognize these racial slurs, I suppose you do not understand any Russian. But I already know the argument: if you don't know the language, why do you think you can judge it, and if you know the language, why do you not go there and correct it. The problem with this argument is that this thing is not a language and that their "V" stands for virtual and not for verifiable. The article the bots want to link still does not know how to write "Sweden". If two Swedish users were to go to the vote page and vote against ru:sib, I would not be surprised if owner Yaroslav would declare that the Siberian word for "Sweden" is actually "Trushchoba", "Skalozubia", "Dungenland"  or whatever. And by the way, I do not have to learn much Siberian anyway, seeing that their article on Denmark is in Belarusian (has also been so for a very long time) and that most of the discussion on their talk pages is in Russian (the rest is in some jargon that combines Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian and the lingo they (not always) use in their articles).--Pan Gerwazy 18:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Limited" is the key.  In essence, you're seeing words that resemble racial slurs in languages you know better, and think that they must be slurs in that language, too.  What next, declaring that 'neeger' in Estonian language is a slur? Digwuren 12:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unlike Estonian, Siberian is an invented language. Their creators knew what they were doing. Their language contains quite a few new words. They don't use malorossy or khokhols for Ukrainians or uriuks for Uzbeks or else. `'Míkka 14:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Interwiki links cannot be controversial? Well, but this one is controversial, for whatever reasons. You are free to believe that nobody ought to find it controversial, but you can't stop people from doing so nevertheless. As far as my administrative actions are concerned, this will be treated as a content dispute, like any other. Work it out by the usual processes. My administrative "threat" is, as I said, only directed against bots revert-warring, as such it stands. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ru-sib links again 

message: This article has been protected due to the edit warring over the interwiki links.  A discussion is in place at WP:BOWN and WT:BOT. — xaosflux Talk 01:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverting bots is not edit warring. Please unblock the article. Besides, how do you argue with a bot? -- Petri Krohn 01:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is due to the fact that multiple bots, each doing useful tasks, may add the link, and it is very inefficient to block them all. I assume anything other than the interwiki link changes can be done using an  request. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 09:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can remove the protection. Pywikipedia no supports , i just tested it with my bot and this page was skipped. If the link still gets added by a bot please leave a message on the bot owners talk page that he should update his or her bot to the latest svn version. multichill 09:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: See . multichill 22:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ru-sib wikipedia is closed now 

message: Miihkali Antreinpoika Golitsin was governor of Pihkova in the 1680s. 82.181.234.211 (talk) 19:56, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gediminids with ties with Ingria 

message: The map labels are not in English.  It would be very helpful to label something on the map "Ingria", because it is unclear what part that is. -- Beland (talk) 22:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map problems