Talk:Kosovo/Archive 13

message: I have reverted an edit today that stated Mitrovica in the north was bigger than Prizen.  In its dreams. Buffadren 14:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Prizen is bigger than Mitrovica

message: Please refer to Kosovo Assembly Law 02/L-37  Article 2 names Albanian and Serbian as the official languages of Kosovo, and continues with 
"In municipalities inhabited by a community whose mother tongue is not an official language, and which constitutes at least five (5) percent of the total population of the municipality, the language of the community shall have the status of an official language in the municipality and shall be in equal use with the official languages."
 Prizren is cited as an exception in this article, as Turkish shall be an official language there. Additionally, this legislation has a further category: Languages in official use (Article 2.4). This Kosovo Law was promulgated by UNMIK Regulation No. 2006/51.--ams 22:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think you find that we have dealt with this in detail in the Talk Page archives.Buffadren 13:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Do you think that the article would be improved by changing or adding something about Kosovo's official languages, Alexmarysimp/ams ? - Regards, Ev 20:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official languages in Kosovo 

message: From BBC News site: Memories of Kosovo. It has some more info about the problems between Albanian-speaking people in Kosovo under perspective of its inhabitants.--MaGioZal 00:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This section has been trimmed back. I see no value in adding this now. Buffadren 14:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Another link about Kosovo

message: This has been parachuted into the article. I feel it should be removed for many reasons. Is there agreement please. 
;Articles by Slavenko Terzic, Ph. D. SANU - Albanian ethnic cleansing of old Serbia, Kosovo, Serbian issue, and the Greater Albania project, Kosovo and Metohija in Serbian history
Buffadren 15:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Not agreed

message: Should we include Northern Cyprus and Cyprus differently? (74.122.179.59 00:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cyprus sure; but I'm skeptical about North Cyprus, since it's not really a globally-recognized country. --PaxEquilibrium 01:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I must agree, this proposal is bizarre and odd. Meritless Buffadren 11:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Well since we've been dealing with a lot of predictions before, I decided to join in. :) There is no point in delaying, if things change we'll just add/remove correspondive countries. Italy, for example, says that consensus is impossible... anyway, this should give some sort of an image, and it can't be premature since it deals about presence and not future. Cheers. It's here to give us at least some sort of an image to the situation. --PaxEquilibrium 17:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that Ahtisaari's proposal is well known, I think that this can be in the article. Probably every country should be sourced... Nikola 10:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

text:  Im sorry to say but this support/neutral and oppose list it not complete and based on lies. The gouvernment of the Republic of Montenegro deceided to stay neutral. This is official, and confirmed by several Montenegrin politics. Also the Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) is neutral, but, they don't admit it or publicate it. Because there still lives some Albanian minority.
In the real world, behind the closed doors, the Republic of Montenegro and the Republic of Macedonia both opposes an Independent Kosovo. 82.94.66.244 07:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: Actually, the Serbian Church was re-organized in 1557 by Ottoman Grand Vizier of Serbian origins, Mehmed-paša Sokolović, who placed his brother (or just relative) Makarije Sokolović as the first head of the new Church. The SOC gathered all the territories where Serbs lived: Rascia, Zeta/Montenegro (with Scutari), Bosnia, Herzegovina, Slavonia, northern Macedonia, Thracian Macedonia, Banate, Bacs, Slavonia, Syrmia, Hungarian Serbia, Baranya, continental Dalmatia and the western Frontiers. It lasted until 1766 when the Ottomans subjected it fully under the puppet Ottoman Ecumenical Patriarchate (although for years "de facto" it already took it, Phanariot Greeks were Serbian Patriarcs). When it was created, it did have large territory, and de facto control over entire Kosovo much more than the Kosovar Vizier or Ottoman Emperor (Consider that the Ottoman Empire much more depended on the Porte, and was not absolutist under the Sultans as it crumbled into misery). Although the Ottomans were rulers, the people never obeyed them and listened to the Patriarchs Serbian always. At times the Serbian Patriarchs even led armies to maintain the rights, as the Serbian Church had enjoyed autonomy as an independent Church but was de facto vassalaged to the Ottoman Empire. And yeah, it functioned as a "state". BTW these exact same territories became the borders of the later plan for a Greater Serbia (and I don't think that's an accident). --PaxEquilibrium 20:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pax, your remark that Serbian Patriarchs lead armies to maintain their rights could make a wrong impression that Serbian Orthodox Church had its own army. Patriarchs only lead Serbian people against Ottoman rule during Austro-Turk wars in 17 and 18 century. Maybe you can say that Pecka Patrijarsija had some state like features but it didn’t have army. --Marko M 08:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don’t deny that there was some kind of relationship between Serbian Orthodox Church and Ottoman Turks in Kosovo and Metohija but that relationship could hardly be called vassal. You can read here on Wikipedia what Vassal means. If there is such a conclusion in any of the books you read, please quote it. And about the book I suggested, I knew what you are going to say but you are wrong. The author of this book used as a reference many books written by Albanian authors. If you want, I could list some of the used books of Albanian authors on you user page. --Marko M 08:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, no, no. This hase not to do with albanians or serbs but with the time in witch it was maked. And somtimes I have problem to understande what you are meaning with Serbian Church. I know that the Church in Istambol it was not so strong but Officel it was strong inoft. And oficel name of the church it was not Serbian but Constatinopel. This is proved from Serbian peopel whan they iuse "grcki zakon" they diden say "serbian zakon". The Belgrade hase proklamedet as protecter of the Churchis in this contrys after 1766 and hase started to remake a new image "serbian image" over the "old tradicional image". This is a logical proces. A iusely muslim in Balkan (Bosnia, Bulgarian, Albanian, Serbien , Turkie (Balkan site) ... ) hase to his old tradition putit some arabish worlds and now with the Raki in ther hands ae sayin thate they are muslim. Cann you tall my way? How can you explen the konflict betwen "tradicional islam" and "islam" over the all Balkan? There are soutch thinks thate nationalty and religion make you problem to be in writgh way to finde out Who is Who? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.177.142.40 (talk) 21:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some explanation 

message: Will someone explain to me what does this means, quote:
Kosovo and the breakup of Yugoslavia
Inter-ethnic tensions continued to worsen in Kosovo throughout the 1980s. In particular, Kosovo's ethnic Serb community, a minority of Kosovo population, complained about mistreatment from the Albanian majority, which was his ways of achieving his means of occupation of a foreign country that is Kosova.
I urge administrators to delete second part ot this sentence from the article since Kosovo wasn't a foreign country at that time, regardles of the final solution of Kosovo status. --Marko M 10:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should have removed it yourself, you are not prohibited from editing the article. Nikola 10:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It was obviously added by someone who is "pro-Albanian". First part of sentence reffers to Kosovo as "Kosovo", the second part as "Kosova", term used by Albanians. ArhangelSerbia 08:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explenation 

message: Kosovo has an area of approximately 4,211 square miles and its population is approximately 2 million. Islam is the predominant faith, professed by most of the majority ethnic Albanian population, the Bosniak, Gorani, and Turkish communities, and some in the Roma/Ashkali/Egyptian community, although religion is not a significant factor in public life. Religious rhetoric is largely absent from public discourse, mosque attendance is low, and public displays of conservative Islamic dress and culture are minimal. The Kosovo Serb population, of whomapproximately 100,000 reside in Kosovo and 225,000 in Serbia and Montenegro, is largely Serbian Orthodox. Approximately 3 percent of ethnic Albanians are Roman Catholic. Protestants make up less than one percent of the population and have small populations in most of Kosovo's cities. Approximately 40 persons from two families in Prizren have some Jewish roots, but there are no synagogues or Jewish institutions.
Foreign clergy actively practice and proselytize. There are Muslim, Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant missionaries active in Kosovo. There are approximately 69 faith-based or religious organizations registered with UNMIK which list their goals as the provision of humanitarian assistance or faith-based outreach.belgrade.usembassy —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.176.134.163 (talk) 02:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious Demography 

message: I want to solve all the populace controversy that rotates around Kosovo. Data shows that the non-Albanian population of Kosovo-Metohija before the war was something not much more than 360,000. Of those, less than 300,000 were Serbs. That statistics to the up claiming that a hundred thousand Serbs live in Kosovo and two hundred twenty-five thousand outside is I believe, just another example in which typically Serbian sources count a lot of non-Serbs among the Serbs. Now, 360k+ were non-Albanians, and below 200k are today (much below, but the figure is not known) of whom around 120,000 are Serbs (taking to granted that the figure isn't 150,000 as other sources say). Now it is known that Milosevic transferred tens of thousands of Serb refugees from west of the Drina to Kosovo. So before calculating the figures before and after the war, we must take to granted that during the war there were nearly 462,000 non-Albanians. It must be also taken to granted that this (referring to the last) could've been be an overestimate. 
:Estimates of non-Albanian refugees are 65,000-100,000-200,000-250,000-300,000.
Before the war there were more than 1,500,000 Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija. Now there should be between 1,800,000-2,000,000 Albanians in Kosovo (with most of the refugees from the war returned, and an additional over 100k Albanians from Albania that moved in). Throughout the 1990s there were (note: very roughly) around 1,360,000 Albanians in Kosovo. In the peak of wide-scale warfare across Kosovo, there were around 917,000 Albanians (although the figure might be underestimated). 
:Estimates of Albanian refugees are 500,000-700,000-800,000-1,000,000. 
I hoped this solves the controversy at least a little. --PaxEquilibrium 20:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, but do we need to consider ecomonic refugess as well as political conflict refeugess, I am not an expert on this area but is this a factor Buffadren 12:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm thinking of ignoring the refugees completely to avoid lengthening the confusion instead of solving it. I'd just note the 462,000 non-Albanians because of Milosevic's transfers, because those people that left in truth became Kosovars and were victims too (twice, once in Krajina and then in Kosovo). --PaxEquilibrium 19:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Paul, I think its wrong to whitewash the issue but I agree the article is too long. Perhaps do a small edit on it. Buffadren 09:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see why are you starting this discussion when we have just painfully resolved it. You are performing an OR, and completely neglecting the fact that people have children and that number of people in 1998 was not the same as the number of people in 1991. Nikola 19:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: I dont know who but somebody is laing about the ortodox churchs in Balkan.The supporters of the today serbian Church are saying something els and the mother church somthing els. It is so confuse.
 
...bla, bla ...
This wide jurisdiction of Constantinople started slowly to decrease through the granting of the autocephalous status to local Churches: to the Church of Russia in 1589, to the Church of Greece in 1850, to the Church of Serbia in 1879, to the Church of Romania in 1885, to the Church of Albania in 1937, and to the Church of Bulgaria in 1945.
 ...bla, bla ....
http://www.ec-patr.org/patrdisplay.php?lang=en&id=5 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.180.184.176 (talk) 08:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? --PaxEquilibrium 10:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Somebody is laing about the Churchs in Kosovo 

message: I'm not quite done yet, i only finished the flags section and i'm not quite done that yet. I still need more descriptive descriptions of the flags, and i need to find the sources, Find a National Anthem, and write the symbols page.
But this is an overall look of the article, come see it at my User Page and comment on it in it's talk page. (Niceferret1 17:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article about the flag could only speak about proposed flags; and I believe that a valid article could be made about it; but what would article about anthem talk about? I never heard that there are any proposals? And why do you call it national anthem, Kosovo is not a nation? Nikola 19:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i understand that, It's more of a rough copy then the real thing, i still have to proofread it, get more information. And i heard on the news that kosovo is also choosing an anthem. I may be incorrect though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Niceferret1 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kosovo Symbol Page 

message: I didn't expect that someone would actually dispute this and rm it, but I've been searching a little. So far I've found claims by a Serbian Orthodox Bishop that was the sole survivor of an extermination camp near Gnjilane that housed 900 Serbs. According to him, and another man who survived in Pec/Peja, 95% of all Serbian settlements (from simple villages and housing to arable land and vineyards) in Metohija (western Kosovo) were raised since 1941. He dedicated his life to the research of crimes after WWII. 
I've also found the orders of the Second League of Prizreni from 1944. Then the world was crumbling upon them as the Allies were approaching and there was a democratic uprising back home in Tirana. The order called for a general draft of all Albanians aged between 16 and 60 and an immediate execution of all Serbs, Jews and Romanies on controlled soil (most already were prisoners). It also contained a list of advices regarding which execution types should be used (they were scarce on both gas and ammunition). 
:It also planned that in case of an allied offensive, every single city and land is to be destroyed behind retreating across Montenegro to meet with the Ustašas on the retreat to the northwest to defend Nazi Germany from allied invasion under the flank of the SS Scanderbey. --PaxEquilibrium 13:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WWII and the Holocaust 

message: We need a article about the ethic cleaning in Belgrad Pashalluk, and in New Serbia during the year 1817-1903.
During this time all the religios monument of the non-serbian ethicts in Belgrad Pashalluk was destroid. Only one moshe in Belgrade was left. (How many non-serb was in this area ? Only Good know thate). When we take a look to the Wikipedia, in all serbian articles there is no word about this. What was hapend with non-serb race (race in church langueg for a ethnic peopel with same cultur, blood and so one...). What was hapen with albanians (shqiptari), boshnjaks (not bosnians= this is a new term), cherkez, goran, bugarians, makedonians etc. they was all muslims and orthodox (like today a american, he can be a Democrat or Republican !Not it this area, bisnes was the way of life). They haved there ethical cultural centren in Belgrad Pashalluk. Ther cultur is destroied, there monument was maket to sebian national church (all bizantin churchs and a new religiose monuments from this peopel). We dont have to forget during the Ottoman empire in this region all this peopel hase live and work there, like a serb can have a home, work pleace a passport in Germany today. They was the citysens of the Ottoman emire like the serbs. Way this peopel most be asimiledet or give up there owen cultur, they was not gilty becose the Sulltan hase meaked war. If they was then was serb too, they was in same sitution. This peopel was looking only for a better life like many, many serbs today in USA, Europe ect. I wount to ask a serb who is living today in US, Can you imagen when the some bandits camme today to your home and tale you thate you most declared yourself als indian, and you mos go to moshe other ways you most leve this country and your capital (dukat, home, ect) most stay here. And you dont accept this, and they start to bit you, and druop your children in watter. 
I know thate this was hapend to the serbs in other pleaces but, the today mape of the ethnic grups, eth nic monuments is speeking who is who? In Serbia all this dont exist enymore. 
Since the Serbian state (not it! Is not a same Byzantinum, and Serbian Church with Serbian State) was foundit they have stardet with genocied agains the non-serbia membrs of thate state. The tragedy is more extremly when we see thate this politic till now in year 2007 is going on. --Hipi Zhdripi 15:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're violating the ArbCom's injunction; this will only lengthen it. --PaxEquilibrium 17:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Per Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Kosovo, Hipi is banned from editing the article but not the talk page. Thatcher131 19:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The ethnic cleaning in Ballkan after the fall of Sulltan 

message: From the archives of Time Magazine, Crimes Of War, June 28, 1999.
An excerpt:
“The horror stays locked in Gentiana Gashi’s mind. Her eyes are red-ringed holes in a pinched, exhausted face. She came home safely to Cuska last week, but she is still harrowed by the unspeakable memories of May 14, the day she left. Back then, she stood beside her weeping mother, too terrified to cry out, as she watched the Serbs march her father away with the other men, hands clasped behind his neck. He looked back once, tears streaming down his face. Gentiana’s mother wept silently too as she watched her husband’s retreating figure until laughing Serbs herded the women out of the village, elbowing them with sly smirks, singing obscene songs. That night when the women slipped back into Cuska, it was Gentiana who picked through the charred pieces of bodies inside three smoldering houses to find the remains of her father. She used to give him massages, she said. Ten men had died in that house, but when her fingers touched a familiar torso, ‘I knew his back, so he was my dad.’
To save her mother from the hideous sight, Gentiana helped three women gather up the human debris of her father and 34 relatives and neighbors into little bags. They tagged each with a name and buried them in two communal graves. Then all those who had survived fled, some to the hills above the town of Pec, some to Albania, anywhere away from the Serbian brutality.
Gentiana Gashi is 11 years old.”
Well, I’ve posted the same content in two other articles about Kosovo, and if you want to make any reference or sourcing related to the Time’s article, feel free to do that.--MaGioZal 20:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is that relevant for this article? Nikola 08:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can post whatever you like, war propaganda is not worth the paper it's printed on.--Methodius 12:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: An article for your reading

message: Why did all the text disappear from the Kosovo Politics section?  I thought that was a great summary of politics, the political leaders/parties and the legal framework of Kosovo.  It seems as if the history section is way too long, but the politics section has been crunched to nothing.  Also, there are no references to the separate article on the Kosovo Future Status Process.  I'd be grateful if someone could shed some light on this?  THANKS! Envoy202 16:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections disappeared?

message: Ok, the reference is good now. But I am not sure whether this should be placed in the begginig of the article? It is important, but maybe it should be placed in Kosovo after the war, or Politics secion? --Velimir85 13:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  UNDP report

message: I think that the main article, "Kosovo", does not go deeply enough into how the current ethnic ratio in Kosovo came to shape. 
Kosovar Albanians claim, most probably truely, that they are the descendants of the original Illyrian tribes which inhabited the the Kosovar region. 
With the arrival of the Slavic tribes c. 600-800 AD, Kosovo became heavily slavicised. The serbians claim that the hordes of medieval Orthodox monasteries scattered about Kosovo is evidence of this. 
Under the section "ottoman rule" the author stated that the there was a massive migration out of Kosovo of both Serbian and Albanian families to escape the wrath of the Ottoman rulers (for their insurrections). This is not entirely true. 
If you read any historical book about the region, it will state that the exodus was only of the Serbian people. Very few ethnic Albanians fled. It was only the ethnic Albanians that converted to Islam (to receive more privillages, or less oppression, under Ottoman rule). There was Serbian conversion to Islam too, but virtually none in the Kosovo region. All the Serbians that did convert to Islam came from the Bosnian region- who are today known as Bosnian muslims. 
It was this exodus the began the dwindling of Serbs in  Kosovo. This process continued in the modern era -in the twentieht century- when Yugoslavia was united after WWI and again after WWII. This occurred even though Serbia was the dominant republic in Yugoslavia- especially militarily and politically (hence the ensuing tensions between Serbia and Crotia, and lesser extent Slovenia). But in Kosovo the Serbian people continued to become the minority. There are several socio-cultural reasons for this. 
1) Tito gave the Albanians a large amount of autonomy- Albanian speaking universities, schools, etc. This sparked a sense of self-identity on the Albanian people. They began to wish to seperate form the "slav" Yougoslavia and create a 'greater' Albania- spreading propaganda and ethnic nationalism.
2) Kosovo was the most backward province of Yugoslavaia. Many Serbs left to go to university and work in other places such as Belgrade
3) Converseley, Kosovo was still a far cry better than Albania (which is about as developed as Afghanistan), so many Albanians fled Albania (under punishment of death)and took up residence in Kosovo. 
4)The serbian population growth rate was smaller. Being Islamic, Albanian families often had 8 to 12 children per family. 
5) The final factor was the commencement of outright violence against Serbians by their ALbanian nighbours. This had began as a secret terrorist group - the KLA- which recieved financial support and military links with organisations like the Taliban. (It is quite ironic, and typifies American hypocrisy, that the US supported the KLA in their 'just cause', yet has vowed that the Taliban are the enemies of the free world). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dr.robertg (talk • contribs) 03:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go and see a doctor, quick! And, yeah, don't forget and blame everything on the "American hypocrisy". Kosovar 01:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: And those are valid historical facts you mentioned, Dr.robertg. Through the history the Serbs were leaving or were forcing out, while Albanians were migrating in and encouraged to do so. For example, under the ottoman rule while Serbian/ortodox people were leaving, Ottomans did not need the empty land, they encouraged Albanians to move in. ArhangelSerbia 09:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The idea that Kosovars bred more 'because they are Islamic' is offencive.  155.188.183.5 (talk) 21:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The ethnic ratios of Kosovo 

message: During the conflict roughly a million ethnic Albanians fled or were forcefully driven from Kosovo, several thousand were killed (the numbers and the ethnic distribution of the casualties are uncertain and highly disputed).
I may be wrong, but that is slightly a POV figure, mostly quoted by the "extremist" sources that tend to be pro-Albanian, just like pro-Serbian sources write "over 300,000 Serbs ethnically cleansed". I've seen 700,000 mentioned as the *middle* most reliable figure, and as I've seen, BBC tends to mention the whole span of possible refugees, simply putting 500,000-800,000. --PaxEquilibrium 19:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pax, this is a piece of information for you personally: there were somewhere around 800,000 registered refugees from Kosovo during the NATO bombing, mainly in Albania, Macedonia, and Montenegro. However, there was a very large number of people who fled to Bosnia, Turkey, Hungary, Bulgaria and other places just before the bombing where you didn't need a visa to stay for a few months. The fact is that every single Kosovar Albanian that could leave Kosovo during the bombing left. I was in Budapest during the bombing and there were many Albanians there (and, even more Serbs from Serbia). So, I would not be surprised if 1 million Albanians fled, but BBC and other sources talk of refugees only, hence this number reduces to only those that seeks humanitarian aid (shelter, food, etc.). There is some confusion about people that (generally, have money and go and stay somewhere with their own money) fled and those that seek humanitarian aid, i.e. refugees, which results in the difference in figures. Kosovar 02:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was only talking about sources. This has nothing to do with whether I believe 500,000; 800,000 or 1,000,000 left. --PaxEquilibrium 14:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1,000,000 Albanian refugees 

message: hrw.org/reports/1999/kosovo/Obrinje6-02.htm#P521_75869 - This is the only relevant thing Dodona contributed so I'm leaving it. Rest of the comments are deleted because no usable references or sources were provided. Without it it's a POVm with strong nationalist bias.--Velimir85 22:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: War crimes reference

message: :Was there anything specific you had in mind?  If you have a specific edit, re-add  with your suggestion.  If it's a general request for unprotection, please list it at WP:RFPP. —dgiestc 06:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template:Editprotected 

message: I have noticed that this article focuses on history mostly. I am not sure if it actually fulfills the standards set for a country article on Wikipedia. Some people write only whatever is helpful to their own interests and never talk about other important stuff.
I hereby volunteer to completely revise this article or even replace it with a new one if necessary. I will be spending at least two months in Kosovo and I can collect enough information to build a nice article. I just need an administrator to help me.--User:Getoar 15:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it doesn't need to fulfill the standard for a country, because it's not a country, so total revision is not really neccessary. But new info is always welcome and you can always add referenced new information. About collecting information, do remember that Wikipedia has a policy against original research, so be advised.--Velimir85 17:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Why do you think that you will be able to completely rewrite the article after spending two months in Kosovo? I was in Greece, for example, but mere fact that I was in Greece didn't made me more capable of completely rewrite the article on Greece. Nikola 07:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Dr.robertg, we should include a little history, but now it looks like the whole article is about history. There should be parity among components of this article, and the history part should not be longer that the one about the United States. Right now, besides history, there's nothing in this article.--Albanian since Stone Age 18:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll just say that I don't think that contacting institutions such as the Statistical Center of Kosovo will be better for the article. Nikola 10:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well surely a linked reference is required at the poulation section if not a listing as an external link ? Buffadren 17:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs to be revised! 

message: Adding Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo on 1974 to Status. Matthew_hk tc 17:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please gain consensus first; this is very controversial page. Cheers. --MZMcBride 19:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit on Infobox

message: Much as some people may object, the fact remains that Kosovo is still part of Serbia. The first map does not reflect this, as Kosovo and Serbia are labelled separately. The word "Serbia" should cover Kosovo as well as Central Serbia. I'll make a map and put it here for the time being.--Hadžija 19:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Listen up, because we don't want to have to go through this again.  A broken line represents an internal border.  INTERNAL, get it? Davu.leon 17:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Feel free to present your map here and seek support for it, but be advised prior to your hard work, the current version is accepted by most editors here, but, by all means present your proposal.Buffadren 18:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that that which Hadzija opposes is the text "Serbia" giving the image that the country has several entities, on being Serbia and the other Kosovo (rather that the latter being the part of the previous, at least officially). --PaxEquilibrium 21:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's it basically. It is factually wrong, as is the caption "location of K. with relation to S.", because K. is legally within S.--Hadžija 22:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But in fact it’s separated from it and not administered by Belgrade since 1999 — almost a decade.--MaGioZal 08:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, excercising authority and administering is not the same as having sovereignty, or indeed internationally recognised borders. See also: Cyprus/Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus since '74, PRC/ROC since '49, or Croatia/RSK '91-'95 and BiH/RS(BiH) '92-'95 for that matter. Also, Bosnia and Herzegovina under Austro-Hungarian administration but Ottoman sovereignty 1878-1908. So I'm not sure what the point you're making is.--Hadžija 09:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah; he already said legally, and Kosovo isn't separated from Serbia legally... well wasn't for a day in that time. Also, Xavier himself said that he will not repeat that mistake and bring UN protectorate over South Ossettia, because as he said it only makes people more distant rather than close, as shown with cases in the Republic of Serbian Krajina and Kosovo (not that they've not been quite helpful of course). --PaxEquilibrium 10:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Someone with the necessary authority needs to add the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo (1974 - 1990) to the infobox, and link the Kingdom of Serbia text to the article. Also, "Part of independent Serbian state" sounds ugly and we should look at rewording it. The first two requests shouldn't be controversial (one would hope). Neither should the last, for that matter.--Hadžija 22:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox suggestions 

message: I believe the recent anonymous editor who has been posting a list of alleged Serbian "kriminels" [sic] is User:Hipi Zhdripi, who is banned from editing articles related to Kosovo and banned permanently from editing anonymously per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kosovo - his style and spelling is very distinctive and the IP addresses are from networks that he has used in the past. He is not permitted to edit Wikipedia anonymously. If he posts again, I recommend deleting his contribution and reporting the matter to WP:AN/I for administrative enforcement. -- ChrisO 07:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent anonymous edits

message: There are few important facts missing from the chapter “Kosovo in the second Yugoslavia”. Namely, there is no mention about Balli Kombetar revolt in 1945. Also, there is no mention of irredentist movement in Kosovo. You can read something about that in the research “Irredentism in Kosovo as Tirana's Policy Toward Belgrade Hardens” by Louis Zanga written for Radio Free Europe in 1975. Although there was a strong peaceful Albanian separatist/independence movement, there was also strong military wing of the movement which used violent methods for fulfilling their cause. Is there any consensus between users who edit this article that these historic facts should be left from it? If not, does that mean that these facts could be included in the article? --Marko M 11:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article, is the most neutral comprehensive history of Kosovo. Read it. --PaxEquilibrium 21:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't read it. Full of mistakes and very pro Milosevic and supports Srebrenica. Neutral? This word could be used by Seselj and Niklic maybe but not by an objective, unbiased historian.  --Noah30 20:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's odd. See my talk page. A Serb user told me that it's quite anti-Serb. So if Serbs think it's anti-Serb, and if Albanians think it's pro-Milosevic - and if it was written by 3rd party at the west and presented by me (who always keeps the middle), it's gotta be neutral, doesn't it? ;))) --PaxEquilibrium 23:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Dodona, please read Wikipedia's policies on civility and personal attacks carefully, because from now on I will assume that you're familiar with them and are willingly breaching them. - Regards, Ev 17:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing bits of Kosovo history 

message: Why is English an official language of Kosovo? Aaker 19:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume it's to make life simpler in a place with large numbers of UN, NATO and NGOs diplomats, personnel & staff from a myriad of different countries involved since 1999 in the government/administration (UNMIK), security (KFOR) & "nation-building in general". Thus, everything is done in triplicate: in Albanian & Serbo-Croatian for the locals, and in English for the multilingual foreigners running the place :-) Best regards, Ev 17:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really think it's Serbo-Croatian. Serbian is more likely. Much more likely.--Velimir85 21:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian languages are in fact just one language — the plain old Serbo-Croatian language (the Radio Free Europe and ICTY also think that way, since they use respectively the terms “South Slavic” and “Bosnian-Serbian-Croatian” to describe the Serbo-Croatian language). Serbians, Bosnians and Croatians doesn’t need interpreters to talk with each other. All the rest is religious nationalism.--MaGioZal 12:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most probably correct - but religious nationalism had little to do with that. --PaxEquilibrium 16:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Exactly, we definitely need a citation, what verifies English as being one of official languages. In fact, I was unable to find any local internet streaming radio stations what would broadcast in English. Claim that English is one of official languages, needs verification Tarmo Tanilsoo 18:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  English? 

message: Dear all, User:Noah30 has recently proposed the following edit to the pre-WWII section. I have asked him to please propose and explain the edit on the Talk page before making the edit. Since he has refused I will take the initative to do so instead:
Prior to WWII various member of the intellectual community of Serbia and the Government of Serbia attempted to plan and implement the Serbian “final solution to the Albanian question”. These attempts are best reflected by two detailed memorandums proposed to the Government of Serbia by a member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences Prof. Vasa Cubrilovic in 1937 and 1944.  
Among other more detailed proposals for harassing the Albanian population of Kosovo through terror and mass expulsion, Vasa Cubrilovic proposes the following in his 1937 and 1944 memorandums: 
  
"As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis."  
  
"...the Albanians must be driven out of Metohija, Kosovo and Polog. Aside from ethnic cleansing during military operations, other methods must be applied to force the national minorities out."  
 
"The law must be enforced to the letter so as to make staying intolerable for the Albanians: fines, imprisonment, the ruthless application of all police regulations"  
Other than insisting on a controversial edit in a contested article while refusing to enter into a discussion on the Talk page I have a number issues with this proposed edit:
#the reference is from the personal web page of a Canadian freelance writer and linguist specializing in Albanian language and culture. He is not affiliated with any university or history institution and can hardly be seen as a good reference.
#much of the text is a direct quote from a supposed translation of a historical document. Per WP:OR "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source." This would be relevant in this case.
#WP:OR states that "when incorporating research into an article, it is important that editors situate the research; that is, provide contextual information about the point of view, indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority". In the edit proposed by Noah30 there is no attempt to attempt to provide any such context.
#Using words such as "Final solution" is definately not WP:NPOV.
I suggest that reliable (expert) references be found on this topic and used accordinly. CheersOsli73 12:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I have adjusted the text on the interwar period to include a description of the Serbian policy of settlement in Kosovo including updated sources. Please let me know what you think. Cheers Osli73 22:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian policy of settlement during interwar period 

message: I wonder, can we include the photo of George W. Bush blowing kisses to Albanians? This is the photo (at the bottom)? It's interesting, but also relevant for Kosovo article. Bosniak 01:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's include a photo of him with the watch while we're at it. And then maybe without it. --Bolonium 03:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Vozdra Bosniak. I think we should include the photo. --Noah30 06:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that it was in Albania to Albanians and not in Kosovo to Kosovars, means it's hardly relevant.Osli73 09:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PHOTO: Bush blows kisses to Albanian 

message: Kosovo is a very important question. BUt the article is too long. Needs to be cut up into "history of Kosovo" etc etc.86.201.21.218 13:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: article too long 

message: We have a leteratur about the existenc of the serbian "national" and "state" meaning. 
*IDIOSYNCRASIES OF THE GRAND NARRATIVES ON SERBIAN NATIONAL IDENTITY
von Tatjana Marković (Belgrade) 
* SELF-REPRESENTATION OF THE SERBIAN »CIVIL-CLASSEN« IN THE 19th CENTURY Communicating through Dositej Obradović1; Wladimir Fischer (Wien)
from Hipi--Hipi Zhdripi 01:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Serbs state on Kosovo

message: It's obviously far, far too long. Any volunteers to cut it down? I'll give it a try if I get the chance, assuming there are no objections! DSuser 15:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cutting down the History section

message: I agree that the history section is too long. Yes, its all very interesting, but i think it needs to be shortened because we can be there all day reading it. 
Certain random facts can be cut out eg "Ilyrians are mentioned in the bible". Yes its an interesting piece of trivia, but has little overall relevance to today's situation in Kosovo. 
I am happy to propose a draft. Of course i'll endeavour for it to be as unbiased as possible. Issues of contention should be noted and present BOTH the serbian and albanian POV, as there is no 100% correct answer. 
Its overall thesis should be to highlight RELEVANT parts of the history that will be comprehensible and help acquaint the reader that otherwise knows little about the Balkans. 
Overall I think the history packs a lot of useful information, just needs a well constructed, summarised version. 
My knowledge is strongest in early to medieval times. For the modern sections, i will have to merely summarise what is already written unless someone else proposes additions. I am happy to do the overall synthesis given that i am a native english speaker with excellent linguistic capabilities. Hxseeker 12:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History too long 

message: I propose the following change to the history section - the ancient times. I suggest it is shortened thus: 
The region of Kosovo has been inhabited by Illyrian tribes since the Bronze Age, the area was known as Dardania. The south of Kosovo was ruled by Macedonia since Alexander the Great's reign in the 4th century BC. After long periods of conflict between Illyrian tribes and invading imperial powers, the region was eventually occupied by the Roman Empire under Emperor Augustus in 28 BC and became part of the Roman province of Moesia. When the Roman Empire split in A.D. 395, the area of Kosovo came under the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire.
Can you sign your comments, please? Four tildas (~) does it. Thanks, as well, for your contribution! DSuser 17:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing history - part I 

message: Right. I've just cut the history section down by perhaps a half or two-thirds. Nothing has been deleted. I've moved evertyhing into either the History of Kosovo page, or to either the History of Medieval Kosovo or History of Modern Kosovo pages. Those three pages now reflect everything written about the history of Kosovo here, good, bad or indifferent. Those pages are now in some chronological order, and are in better shape than they were before. They still need a lot of work, so if you have the energy and will adibe by Wikipedia standards, please do go ahead and work on them.
The section on history in this main article is still too long. After some reflection we might cut down or remove the ancient section and reduce the medieval/ottoman sections. Summaries are all we require as the detail is in these other pages. The article now has much better balance. There are still some potentially NPOV statements: it's not perfect but needs working on. 
Anyone who tries to get POV statements back in there, or add reams of text about bloody Illyrians or Slavs, will get reverted. DSuser 18:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite correct, according to a source from the 18th century, there were AFAIK more Moslem Serbs than Christians. This, parallel with constant emigration and frequent expulsions, is why Orthodox Serbs have become a minority. A part of them culturally assimilated into modern-day Albanians, while others survived to this very day identifying as Muslims by nationality, and a significant part of them adopted the Bosnian naturalized term Bosniacs. An interesting thing to note as well is that out of some of those Islamized Slavs, a whole indigenous people survived - the "Hillmen". --PaxEquilibrium 12:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old History 

message: With a dozen or however many votes cast thus far, one pattern that I personally find somewhat instructive as to the nature of this debate seems to be emerging.  If you'll forgive me for the somewhat undiplomatic nature of this statement, but there does seem to be a strong correlation between those users who have voted in favour of exclusively using "Kosovo" as an adjective and those users who self-identify as Serb or Serbophone.  Let me be clear: this is not in any way supposed to mean their votes are any less important or valuable or that they are somehow groupthinking crazed chest-thumping nationalists :).  But perhaps it might be useful to ask ourselves why, exactly, there seems to be an ethnic dimension emerging in this nomenclature debate?
And to forestall the inevitable question, I am myself an Anglophone, whose ancestors probably last scooted around the Balkans sometime before at least the Bronze Age, who personally sees myself as being on the fence on the independence issue.  It doesn't make my opinions any more right or wrong or even necessarily any more neutral than anyone else's, IMHO, just thought I'd self-declare. The Tom 01:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Observation 

message: Can we please archive some old threads? There are entries dated March 2007 and the page is considerably long as it stands. It is costing me a fortune in mobile GPRS fees! Thanks, --Asteriontalk 21:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Silly Wikipedian! :-) Don't you know that following any talk page requires the "unlimited data" plan? That said, I share your pain if none is available for your service, having (first month of service) experienced a non-unlimited data usage GPRS bill myself! —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved to a flat-rate now but unfortunately I still have to pay last bill! ;) --Asteriontalk 08:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving? 

message: This articel is about Kosovo (under UN-Administraton) and not about Kosovo i Metohia (Serbian administration). If somebody wount to make the article Kosovo i Metohia he cann make it like Kosovo Vilajet. The otomans diden accept thate they have lose this terytory in year 1912, but the rest of the World well. It is the same situation. Of corse thate Serbia dont wount to accept. But, we need the facts. Kosovo is administratet from UNMIK, and the oficial languege is not anymore only serbian languege. It is the same in year 1912 in Kosovo oficial languege it was Ottoman languege and not the serbian languege from Ottoman poit of view. But, from the rest of the world was acceptyt like Serbian administration. If Kosovo today is part of Serbia then Kosovo it was part of Ottoman emparire till 1924.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.70.165.153 (talk)  
:Hipi zhdripi, shouldn't you be using your account rather than an anonymous IP address (per the requirements of the previous arbitration in which you were sanctioned?). -- ChrisO 08:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I'm gonna nominate Hipi Zhdripi for adminship. --PaxEquilibrium 12:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Hipi Zhdripi is banned from editing Kosovo and related articles anyway. If things continue as badly, I may well request semiprotection. --Asteriontalk 18:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference is that "Kosova" is not so used in the English-language Western press, but "Kosovar" to describe the inhabitants of Kosovo is. And, as far as recent polls show, the majority of the Kosovar popluation don’t want to be part of Albania, but to be part of a new independent nation of Kosovo.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.173.142 (talk) 03:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The oficial name

message: Can somebody please help me? Can someone please say what Hipi wants from me at User_talk:PaxEquilibrium? He's clodding my talk page as an anon with messages I simply cannot translate... --PaxEquilibrium 16:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hipi Zdripi what'sapi??? 

message: Is it me or has the blue administrative map been modified? There are some darker blue traces on it, the font is no good as well and the overall looks like an amateur's job... Besides, I don't understand why there should be Albanian names on it, if the region is a part of Serbia...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.57.165 (talk) 19:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Administrative map 

message: May these now include Turkish? Even at some regional level? I've noticed roadsignes include the Turkish name for the town. Given that the Albanian comes first, followed by a Latinic-only version of the Serbian (which might just be for the benefit of English speakers since English still uses Serbian names), and then Turkish; I am curious to know if the Turkish language has currently acquired greater importance. Evlekis 13:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official languages 

message: No respect abot the histor from serbian propagander. Lekë Dukagjini dont exist for the serbs propagander. The sebs are presenting here the Battel of Kosovo Feld as History of Kosovo. This secion how it is now it mos be called the hitory of Battel IN Kosovo and this is a WAR ARENA even 3% of Kosovo and the rest it was under Lekë Dukagjini. Kosovo today is not Kosovo area feeld from metel age. Your self hase maked propagander thate this Dardania shold be called Kosovo now the history of area from 3% of today Kosovo you are callen History of Kosovo. This area it was defendet from all chrits in thate time in Dardania. Today the Serbian Church hase the administrativ right over Kosovo and so every chricht of thate time is callen Serb Hero --Hipi Zhdripi 00:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kosovo in the Middle-Ages

message: On 23 March 1989 the Assembly of the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo met in Pristina. The majority decided to revoke autonomy back to that which it was before 1971/4. However, only a part of ethnic Albanian MPs voted, the greatest part abstained as an act of protest and complete boycott of the movement. Despite not securing a two-third majority, Slobodan Milosevic used a simple majority and thus, unconstitutionally proclaimed the amendments to the Constitution of SAP Kosovo. On 28 March 1989 the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of Serbia voted constitutional amendments of its own to promote the provincial act.
I don't have the will to include this into the article. Somebody should. --PaxEquilibrium 20:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revoking autonomy 

message: I would like to know more about the involvement of the western security forces and Al Qaeda in the KLA. How were they involved? Did the Western Security forces cooperate with Al Qaeda in dealing with the KLA? Or did they fight with Al Qaeda over the KLA? The source of this information is a book that I don't have. Could the editor of that section explain please? Thank You Shqarthi 23:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kosovo War Section 

message: the infobox misses a flag, or isn't there anyone defined yet, I want to be clarified in one possible option that is the one that looks totally similar as Albani'as one.--Andersmusician VOTE 18:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the article on the Flag of Kosovo states, "there is no historical or current national or provincial flag that represents Kosovo's territory." Ethnic-Albanians use the Albanian flag and Serbs the Serbian one. For official purposes, the United Nations flag is used. — See also the section on the flag of Kosovo of this talk page :-) Best regards, Ev 21:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks for the link to upper section of this page--Andersmusician VOTE 01:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kosovo's flag 

message: You better prepare this article as a dispute, otherwise we'll be facing a lot of small yet obtrusive changes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.99.226 (talk) 02:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  big disputes coming 

message: What is the importance of the information about stipends for Kosovar Serbs working for the government?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.250.113.209 (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kosovo After The War