Talk:Tricholoma pardinum

message: Are the symptoms of poisoning "merely" discomfort, or have there been reported cases of fatalities or permanent injury due to the mushroom? -- 22:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably just discomfort, I have never heard of a fatal Tricholoma poisoning.  Alan Rockefeller (Talk - contribs) 23:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Deadly'' Poisonous? 

message: abstract Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Herink and Kotlaba

message: Ok, this book gives a detailed account of the naming issue...but it's in Italian! So I typed it out thus:
===Note tassonomiche===
La cronistoria relativa alla nomenclatura del Tr. Pardinum (Pers.) Quel. e sicuramente tra le piu complice e controverse, tanto da far prendere in seria considerazione la pubblicazione dei micologi cecoslovacchi Herink e Kotlaba (1967) i quali su "Ceska Mykologie", per semplificare il tutto propongono Tricholoma pardalotum spec. nov. per risolvere una evoluzione nomenclatoria durata oltre 200 anni e sicuramente imperfetta.
Tutto inizia con l’Agaricus tigrinus di Schaeffer 1762, raffigurato nella tavola N. 89 del famoso trattato "Fungorum qui in Baria et Palatinatu…" .
Questo disegno rappresenta sicuramente il fungo di questa scheda ma la relativa diagnosi e difficilmente e correlabile all’immagine o quantomeno e assai lacunosa.
Elias Fries, (1821) nel "Systema Mycologicum" inserisce l’Agaricus tigrinus ma rifacendosi non al fungo dello Schaeffer ma all’Agaricus tigrini del Bulliard ; oggi sappiamo che questa specie non e un tricoloma ma l’attuale Panus tigrinus (Bull. :Fr.) Sing..
Nel 1838, nell’Epicrisis Systematis Mycologici, Fries aggiunge un’altro Agaricus tigrinus dando una figura nelle Icones selectae… del 1867; qualche Autore ha ritenuto di vedere in questa diagnosi e immagine addirittura un igroforo, probabilmente il marzuolus o il caprinus
Risulta evidente a questo momento che due Agaricus tigrinus non possono coesistere, ne in pratica e tantomeno tassonomia. Quelet (1873), infatti nei “Campignons du Jura et des Vosges” lascia cadere la definizione tigrinus e descrive nuovamente il fungo come Tricholoma pardinum.
Quarant’anni prima pero della pubblicazione di L. Quelet, il micologo svizzero L. Secretan, nella  “Mycographie Suisse“ aveva dato per primo una reale descrizione dell’ Agaricus pardinus ; egli era risalito all’ Agaricus myomyces var. pardinus di C.H.Persoon 1801.
Questo dato sicuramente importante tassonomicamente, e stato ignorato prima dal Fries (1821) e poi dal Quelet (1873), pertanto l’esatta definizione della specie dovrebbe essere Tricholoma pardinum (Secr.) Quel… Una ulteriore incertezza che va ad aggiungersi alle molte altre verificabili in letteratura e correlate a questo tricoloma. A sdrammatizzare le tensioni tra i conservatori di tigrinus e i fautori di pardinus interviene R. Maire (1911) il quale sul BSMF, in modo molto brillante afferma che, dopotutto, il cambiamenta non e affatto rivoluzionario… dalla tigre al leopardo il passo e breve… Se sulla specie si e molto scritto e discusso, ben stabile e fissata e l’immagine di questo tricoloma tossico. La nostra opinione, e ci referiamo al valido contributo dei micologi Herink e Kotlaba gia citato all’inizio, e pero quella di mantenere e percio non introdurre nuovi nomi quando l’interpretazione generale del concetto e chiara, valida e di diffusione quasi universale. Una proposta la nostra di una particolare nomina conservanda, che invocheremo anche in qualche altro caso, pur se la stretta applicazione del nuovo codice di Sydeny ci da malauguratamente torto.
Accanto al Tricholoma pardinum (Pers.) Quel. sono state registrate due varieta : la prima quella di C.L. Alessio var. filamentosum e un’altra piu labile var. unguentatum (Fr.) Bon, distinta per la gracilita degli esemplari e la relativa untuosita del rivestimento pileico.
approximate translation:
===Taxonomic Notes===
The chronology of the nomenclature of the Tr. Pardinum (Pers.) Quel. is certainly among the most complicated and controversial, so much so as to make the publication of the Czechoslovak mycologists Herink and Kotlaba (1967) seriously consider the same under "Czech Mycology"; for simplicity they suggested [the name] Tricholoma pardalotum spec. nov. to resolve a nomenclatorial evolution lasting over 200 years and certainly imperfect.
It all starts with the Agaricus tigrinus of Schaeffer 1762, depicted in Table 89 of the famous treatise Fungorum qui in Bavaria et Palatinatu circa Ratisbonam nascuntur Icones ("On the mushrooms of Bavaria and the Palatinate").
This drawing certainly represents the fungus of this card but its differential diagnosis [or whatever mycologists say] is hardly [and] correlatable to the image or at least sketchy.
Elias Fries (1821) in Systema Mycologicum inserts the Agaricus tigrinus but refers not to Schaeffer's fungus, but Bulliard's Agaricus tigrinus; today we now know that this species is not a tricholoma but the current Panus tigrinus (Bull.: Fr) Sing .
In 1838, in Epicrisis Systematis Mycologica, Fries adds another Agaricus tigrinus giving a figure in Icones selectae ... of 1867; various authors even believed to see in this description and image a hygrophorus, probably marzuolus or caprinus.
It is clear at this moment that two Agaricus tigrinus cannot coexist, neither in practice, let alone in taxonomy. Quélet (1873), in fact, in "Champignons du Jura et des Vosges", drops the definition tigrinus and describes the mushroom again under Tricholoma pardinum.
But forty years before the publication of L. Quélet, the Swiss mycologist L. Secretan in "Mycographie Suisse", had first given a real description of Agaricus pardinus; this was based on Agaricus myomyces var. pardinus of C. H. Persoon 1801.
This information, taxonomically important as it certainly is, was ignored first by Fries (1821) and then by Quélet (1873), so that the exact definition of the species should be Tricholoma pardinum (Secr.) Quel… A further uncertainty that joins the many others verifiable in the literature is related to this tricholoma. To defuse the tensions between those keeping tigrinus and the advocates of pardinus intervenes R. Maire (1911) who in BSMF very brilliantly affirms that after all the change is by no means revolutionary... from tiger to leopard is only a short step... Even though much has been written and discussed about the species, the depiction of this toxic tricholoma is stable and fixed. Our opinion, and here we refer to the valuable contribution of mycologists Herink and Kotlaba that we cited at the beginning, is however that of preserving and therefore not introducing new names when the general interpretation of the term is clear, valid and in almost universal use. A proposal from our side for a specific nomina conservanda, which we will also invoke in certain other cases, even though the straightforward application of the new Sydney code unfortunately forbids it. Next to Tricholoma pardinum (Pers.) Quel. two varieties have been recorded: the first being that of C.L. Alessio var. filamentosum and another, weaker, var. unguentatum (Fr.) Bon, distinguished by the slimness of the specimens and the relative greasiness of the pileus coating.
===Now to find...===
*Fungorum qui in Bavaria et Palatinatu circa Ratisbonam nascuntur icones, nativis coloribus expressae....but which volume...Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that, I had a slow connection (and computer!) before which meant I had difficulty navigating the document. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: nope that Agaricus tigrinus definitely ain't T. pardinum as Riva notes...need to look at Bulliard now....Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

text: damn, this is fun but I need to sleep! Oh well, there's always tomorrow (and finding other Fries etc.) zzzzzzzzzzz Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:40, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

text: NB" Panus tigrinus is Lentinus tigrinus Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I think we need Circeus...dunno if he has this page watchlisted. Will ping him. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that. Maire makes no mention of it. I suspect some bibliographic error. Circéus (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Bother, that was such a nice quote about tiger and a leopard....Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:18, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Yes, funny how one forgets looking into this before - I wrote something at Amanita_phalloides#Taxonomy_and_naming on this very problem. Question is, is that the right level of detail? Too much, or too little....? Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Riva book in Italian

message: *Fungorum qui in Bavaria et Palatinatu circa Ratisbonam nascuntur icones, nativis coloribus expressae....but which volume...Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that, I had a slow connection (and computer!) before which meant I had difficulty navigating the document. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: nope that Agaricus tigrinus definitely ain't T. pardinum as Riva notes...need to look at Bulliard now....Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

text: damn, this is fun but I need to sleep! Oh well, there's always tomorrow (and finding other Fries etc.) zzzzzzzzzzz Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:40, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

text: NB" Panus tigrinus is Lentinus tigrinus Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I think we need Circeus...dunno if he has this page watchlisted. Will ping him. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that. Maire makes no mention of it. I suspect some bibliographic error. Circéus (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Bother, that was such a nice quote about tiger and a leopard....Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:18, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Yes, funny how one forgets looking into this before - I wrote something at Amanita_phalloides#Taxonomy_and_naming on this very problem. Question is, is that the right level of detail? Too much, or too little....? Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Now to find...

message: From  Google translation follows. Sasata (talk) 06:04, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *My library has this in print ... will try to retrieve it in the next week. Sasata (talk) 19:53, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Great. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lemesle paper in French 

message: Cas, I recently acquired "The Book of Fungi" (Robert & Evans, 2011). In addition to being an eminently readable account of 600 common species, it also gives a range map for each of them, including T. pardinum. If I sent you a photo of the relevant page, do you think you'd be able to whip up a range map that we could include in the taxobox? (I'd do it myself, but my skills with drawing software suck, and I know you've done similar) If you're busy, I'll send a request to the graphics lab (there's no rush, of course!) Sasata (talk) 20:22, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes please - I'd be happy to so fire away. I'll do it right after one for Noisy Miner (getting a bit bored of using an Australia map all the time anyway....) Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Range map 

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