Talk:Justin Martyr

message: The description of Justin's writings is very odd for an encyclopedic page. Justin has three works that are universally recognized as genuine: the two Apologies, and the Dialogue with Trypho. Despite this, there is one subsection under 'Writings' called 'Apology' which only talks about the First Apology, and in just one sentence. Similarly, there is one brief sentence which describes the content of the Dialogue with Trypho, followed by a second sentence which contains a detail so specific that it is not even mentioned on the Dialogue with Trypho page. In any case, this detail is clearly incorrect (cf. Revelation 12:9) so I'm going to correct it. Most strange of all is the fact that the sub-section for 'On the Resurrection' is far longer than the other two, even though the majority of scholars do not regard this as an authentic work of Justin Martyr! Tjfarrar1983 (talk) 16:42, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Oddities in Description of Justin's Writings

message: Am I missing something (if so I apologize)? Where is the information on the martyrdom of Justin Martyr? I see nothing about his trial and execution here. --Daniel 12:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing

message: Shouldn't this article be called 'Justin the Martyr'? As it is thus presented it appears to be his surname. I propose changing the name to what I stipulated. Doktor Waterhouse 10:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree.  "Justin Martyr" is the name used by every present-day historian and theologian who references him.  I'm not sure why or how this name developed, but that is what it is.  (I do agree, however, that it sounds a little confusing!) David aukerman talk 15:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree. "Justin Martyr" has become his name in fact. That is how everybody refers to him. Mrhsj (talk) 03:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Even if no one knows why or how he was got the name, this article should state that that is indeed his name. Currently it leaves readers wondering why this odd choice of name is never mentioned. Is it possible he referred to himself as "Justin Martyr" in his own writings? It sounds like he was quite inspired by the Christian martyrs and may have greatly desired martyrdom. Ben (talk) 01:15, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of Article/Person 

message: There seems to be some confusion as to whether the lost Midrash reconstructed by Saul Lieberman came from Justin Martyr or Raymond Martini. The currenct article on Justin Martyr says "Justin's self-perception of himself was that of a scholar, although his skills in Hebrew were either non-existent or minimal. His opposition to Judaism was typical of church leaders in his day, but does not descend to the level of anti-semitism. After collaborating with a Jewish convert to assist him with the Hebrew, Justin published an attack on Judaism based upon a no-longer-extant text of a Midrash. This Midrash was reconstructed and published by Saul Lieberman." 
Yet the article on Saul Lieberman says his source for the Midrash was not Justin Martyr but Raymond Martini. "He also published a heretofore unknown Midrashic work that he painstakingly pieced together by deriving its text from an anti-Jewish polemic written by Raymond Martini, and various published lectures of Medieval Rabbis. This Midrashic text was lost on account of vigorous church censorship and suppression."
So which is it? Justin Martyr or Raymond Martini? Why all the confusion? The articles need to be revised and corrected.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.239.94 (talk) 12:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Justin Martyr or Raymond Martini? 

message: The first sentence as of 2009-09-21:
Saint Justin Martyr (also Justin the Martyr, Justin of Caesarea, Justin the Philosopher, Latin Iustinus Martyr or Flavius Iustinus) (100–165) was an early Christian apologist and saint.
Is it appropriate for Wikipedia to declare somebody a saint?  The first and second dictionary.com definitions include the idea that a saint is a person of great holiness.  It seems inappropriate that Wikipedia would be claiming that anybody has great holiness.
I think the claim about sainthood should be removed and a short sentence added that states what religious entities recognize Justin Martyr as a saint.
As an aside this is not the only place in this article that seems to have a religious slant.
Davefoc (talk) 16:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The leading "Saint" was incorrect per naming policy, as it was not required for disambiguation. I've removed it. As to stating that he is a saint, the pertinent definition is the one given in the linked WP article: "a human being who is believed to have been 'called' to holiness or has, consciously or unconsciously, fulfilled the criteria set for sainthood by a religious institution." JM clearly fulfills the second half of the definition. That said, I note that the descriptions of early Christian saints are rather inconsistent. It might be a good topic to bring up at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Saints. Finally as to the article "having a religious slant" I'm not sure what you mean. A quick skim through the article didn't turn up anything inappropriate to me. It is an article about religion after all... so please be more specific. Mrhsj (talk) 17:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The objection really seems to be "I don't want anyone called a saint because I don't agree with their religion."  I don't think that is helpful to Wikipedia.   Roger Pearse (talk) 00:16, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it appropriate to claim that Justin Martyr was a Saint  in the first sentence? 

message: The Logos section of this article is rambling and poorly written. It also betrays a clear POV.  It is a matter of scholarly debate whether Justin considers the Logos/Son to be God in the same way as the Father.  The article currently argues that he does not, and deal poorly with his material on the Logos as Angel and Apostle sent from the Father– it is inconsistent with the structure of Justin's argument, and therefore quite misleading.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.89.216 (talk) 09:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logos section 

message: I have merged the Memoirs of the Apostles material from the Gospel of the Twelve article into this article.  It became clear, after some investigation, that the material did not fit in the G12 article.  The section entitled Memoirs of the Apostles was originally the Name section that reported on Justin's use of the term "memoirs of the Apostles" to refer to the gospels generally, and more specifically to the fulfillment of prophecy.  The Composition section describes Justin's use of two testimony sources - a "kerygma source" believed to be circulating within Justin's school, which contained scriptural proof-texts demonstrating the proof from prophecy of the life and career of Jesus, and a "recapitulation source" used by Justin to create proofs from prophecy of the divinity of Jesus.  The second source is almost certainly The Disputation of Jason and Papiscus.  It was used only in the Dialogue as the main testimony source to demonstrate a preexistence Christology.  Ovadyah (talk) 03:02, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merged MA material from the G12 article 

message: While I still have the books checked out from the university library, I may expand this section a bit.  I was focusing on the testimony sources because they contain the scriptural proofs that Justin refers to as the "memoirs of the Apostles".  However, there are other examples that could be included of Justin's use of sources which were circulating within his school.  The most important of these are the catechal source materials that Justin's school used for ethical instruction.  Another example is Justin's use of a source, which is probably The Apology of Quadratus, that compared heroes of Greece and Rome to notable figures in the Hebrew Bible.  Neither of these sources contain scriptural proofs, and Justin never refers to them as "memoirs", but excerpts from both sources are contained in the First Apology and the Dialogue.  Ovadyah (talk) 15:25, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I decided to be conservative and refrain from naming Justin's tracts comparing Greek mythology to OT prophecies and Plato's dependence on Moses.  These may well be from a lost Apology, but there is nothing in Eusebius' report on the Apology of Quadratus to suggest it is the same work used by Justin.  P. Nautin was engaging in pure speculation, which Skarsaune reported in a footnote without comment.  Ovadyah (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

text: The section on catechetical sayings sources is largely complete.  It could be mentioned that the four logia in Dial. 35:3 probably came from a different sayings source than the catechism used to create 1 Apol. 15-17 and parallels in the Dialogue.  However, this would only supplement the main point that Justin was dependent upon source materials that were already circulating within his school.  Ovadyah (talk) 16:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

text: I added a bit more about the Christology of the Disputation.  I didn't push any possible similarities to the GH or Romans 5, as these are very indirect at best.  That completes the work on the Composition section.  Ovadyah (talk) 16:32, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Composition section 

message: :may be someone thinks worth including? moving rather than simply deleting In ictu oculi (talk) 15:11, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: no idea about the source In ictu oculi (talk) 15:11, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

text: A soldier in the British Army in India Arthur Lillie (1893) (ref Arthur Lillie The Influence of Buddhism on Primitive Christianity 1893 section excerpted and retailed as The Gospel According to the Hebrews, Kessinger Publishing 2005. pp 111 - 134 /ref) argued that when Justin Martyr is quoting from the Memoirs of the Apostles these sayings are really from the Gospel of the Hebrews (ref Rev. Sabine Baring-Gould, The Lost And Hostile Gospels, 1874 POD reprint Nabu Press, 2010. p 122 - 129 /ref) (ref Waite Burlingame (1824-1909) History of the Christian Religion, to the Year Two Hundred, 1881 POD reprint BiblioBazaar, 2009. p 278 /ref)
 
The above quotations were possibly excerpted from these 100-plus year old sources, but that is not clear from the content of the article.  As it stands, they are devoid of any context, and therefore, useless for improving a biographical article on Justin Martyr.  What would be more relevant to this article are modern reliable secondary sources that investigate <U>how</U> and <U>why</U> Justin utilized these sayings by understanding his aims and the organization of the material to achieve them.  Ovadyah (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved from Jewish-Christian gospels

message: Is this really an appropriate term for an encyclopedia? Who is in the position to judge an eschatology as primitive or not? I was under the impression that editors of Wikipedia were supposed to leave their personal oppinion on a topic out ...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.196.171.210 (talk) 19:12, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  'primitive eschatology' 

message: :Justin's attitude toward the Pauline epistles generally corresponds to that of the later Church. In this area, his polemics against Marcion were in accord with the emergent mainstream Catholic views. In Justin's works, distinct references are found to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, and possible ones to Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy. It seems likely that he also knew Hebrews and 1 John. The apologetic character of Justin's habit of thought appears again in the Acts of his martyrdom,Martyrdom of Justin Martyr at Wikisource the genuineness of which is attested by internal evidence.
The remaining unsourced content from the Scriptural citations section has been moved here temporarily until reliable sources can be found (Wikisource is not a reliable source).  At that point the material will be reintegrated into a Letters subsection of the new Scriptural sources section.  There are also some pious OR editorial statements in here that need to be cleaned up.  Ignocrates (talk) 15:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "distinct references are found to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, and possible ones to Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy. It seems likely that he also knew Hebrews and 1 John."
appears to be copied directly from this blog.  The same content is also found in Development of the New Testament canon minus the pious OR commentary.  That article has the following source, which I will check out as a possible RS for this article: Everett Ferguson, "Factors leading to the Selection and Closure of the New Testament Canon," in The Canon Debate. eds. L. M. McDonald & J. A. Sanders (Hendrickson, 2002) pp. 302–303; cf. Justin Martyr, First Apology 67.3.  It's somewhat alarming to see how many Web articles have incorporated this unsourced commentary as though it were an obvious fact.  Ignocrates (talk) 16:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved unsourced content to talk 

message: I have included a brief paragraph based off the Old Catholic Encyclopedia regarding the origin of the logos, including its commentary that it was "unfortunate".  More scholarly opinion will be need to discuss the significance of the Logos, and this this departure if it is significant.
:An extensive rewrite of this material was long overdue.  I suggest the section be moved to its own subsection under Prophetic Exegesis.  There is no reason to slavishly adhere to the order of the Schaff-Herzog encyclopedia.  Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 23:08, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doctrine of the Logos Revisions 

message: Was he known as "Justin Martyr" during his lifetime, or did he come to be known by that name after his death?
Surely I'm not the only person experiencing this confusion.  The article should clear this up. 75.163.217.66 (talk) 14:11, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm confused 

message: ... or would it be better to call it simply "Teachings"?  I see nothing in that section about his conversion. Shrommer (talk) 22:29, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section heading "Conversion and Teachings"? 

message: Substituted at 20:45, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Is there a reason his dates of birth and death are missing from the lead sentence? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 15:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing dates in lead