Talk:Perverted-Justice/Archive 1

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Perverted-justice.com are not active partners with policeworld.net.
Apparently this is becoming a problem.
User 67.169.194.181, please stop deleting information or links critical of the site.  Neutrality means the detractors get their say too.  Deleting criticism only makes the site's supporters look bad.  Incidentally, you've also reached the 3-revert limit.
68.209.187.148 and others, please refrain from adding attacks against 67.169.194.181 or the supporters of the site to the article.  That isn't the place for it.
Shimeru 23:55, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)
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Unfortunately, Xavier Von Erck (User 67.169.194.181), the owner of perverted-justice, continues to edit out or modify all information he sees as critical of his organization. The organization Corrupted-Justice.com has been instrumental in raising public awareness of the vigilante actions of perverted-justice. Members of Corrupted-Justice.com have been quoted in a number of major newspaper and magazine articles, interviewed by a number of national radio and television programs, and should be included in the list of "well known critics" of his organization. Yet whenever the organization's name is added to the "cons" section, Xavier returns to remove the entry. 
Rather than becoming involved in Xavier's juvenile editing frenzy, I would suggest that "Corrupted-Justice.com" be added to the list of detractors, and the article be locked to prevent further defacement by Xavier. In my opinion, the version of the article from 03:15, 6 Jan 2005 is the most accurate and should be reverted to that revision and locked. The majority of updates after that point were revisions by Xavier himself to remove or alter legitimate criticisms.
19:05, Jan 6, 2005 (EST)
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The amusing thing is that the leader of Corrupted-Justice.com continues to try to edit out links to Corrupted-Justice.net, a site that has revealed that CJ.com is actually founded by pedophiles and those who espouse hacking PJ.com. The last updates by the 216 IP have consistently tried to remove positive links as well as claim that "Xavier Von Erck" is actually some other guy, claims that have no external backing.
I recommend that the article be protected and completely rewritten by an actual Wikipedia person rather than the litany of IP's have that come in to try to bash the organization. This is a directed, concerted effort to slam the largest and most pro-active anti-pedophile group in the nation. Basically, the pedophiles are trying to overrun Wikipedia.
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In examining the "history" tab of the page, it is readily apparent that the "216" IP address has not removed a single link from the article. One only needs to look at the "differences" links to see that the "216" IP address ADDED a link to Corrupted-Justice.com, and ADDED a number of lines of factual information. No links were removed by IP 216. 
Accusations that a site was "founded by pedophiles" and "espouse hacking" could be considered fairly serious defamation against myself, the founder and owner of the site. One would think anyone making such serious allegations would be willing to back up their accusation by publicly stating their actual identity and providing evidence of the accusations, otherwise their statement is simply a baseless anonymous accusation with no basis in fact, designed to defame.
On closer examination of the "history" tab of the article, one will note that the majority of edits were done by IP 67.169.194.181. This is the IP address belonging to Xavier Von Erck, the owner of PJ. (I have a number of e-mails from Xavier bearing the same IP address in the headers) The vast majority of the edits by Xavier were done to remove facts which appeared to oppose or discount PJ's legitimacy, in direct violation of Wikipedia's policy of  maintaining a "Neutral Point Of View".
"Neutral point of view, or the agreement to report subjective opinions objectively, so as not to cause edit wars between opposing sides. As a verb, to remove biased statements or slanted phrasing. As an adjective, it indicates that an article is in compliance with Wikipedia's NPOV policy."
On re-reading the article, it is blatently apparent that a considerable number of edits and reversions have been done which have completely removed the NPOV and slanted it primarily in favour of PJ's legitimacy. Unfortunately, 67.169.194.181 does not appear to be heeding the advice of Shimeru above, and continues to remove factual criticisms and links to or mentions of legitimate detractors. On a positive note, this revisionist agenda is readily apparent to anyone reviewing the history of changes to the article, thereby providing valuable insight into the methods used by PJ supporters to ensure only their point of view is visible.
Scott Morrow - 07 Jan 2005 - 18:00 (EST)
admin@corrupted-justice.com
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The idea that Scott Morrow represents a "neutral point of view" is amusing.
Now they have taken to removing media links, removing links to a website called "Corrupted-Justice.net" which exposes Morrow's group as a fraud and removing content illustrating the vast work Perverted-Justice.com does with law enforcement.
It really is time for this article to be rewritten by Shimeru, the only impartial person to come around, before being protected so that Morrow and his goon squad of pro-pedophiles doesn't continue to screw with it. Shimeru and I agreed on a version that left criticism and pro- arguments in. Now the pro-pedophiles are attempting to take it completely over. 
Lives, get, really.
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I am a casual reader of Wikipedia and also a supporter of Perverted-Justice.com. While being pro-PJ might make me "biased", I do not believe that the edits organized and made by Scott Morrow are any less biased. In fact, I believe XavierVE is making a good decision in trying to preserve the original article and add to it. I made a plea to the Wikipedia people offering a fair resolution: let Morrow author his own Wikipedia entry for his own site, where he can add whatever criticisms he wants, and please have Shimeru come back and resubmit an article that is fair towards the subject in question: Perverted-Justice.com. Morrow is exaggerating his grievances here in this forum and I believe he is organizing multiple users from his own website to instigate this attack on the Perverted-Justice.com Wikipedia entry. I implore readers to consider that at any given time until this is resolved, the entry may be  factually incorrect or in dispute. I've seen erasing of positive-PJ comments and media links, but to see the same people who make those changes come in here and try to get the only person adding pro-PJ comments banned is disgusting.
Just the ramblings of a Wiki reader...
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Response from Scott Morrow
I am not sure why XavierVE and his staff continue to attribute malicious edits to me.
It should be noted that most of the edits being attributed to me are NOT in fact me. I have not "organized multiple users" to do any editing, and in fact am not aware of anyone from our organization (other than me) who is even aware of this article. Attributing multiple edits to a conspiracy initiated by me is ridiculous. I have no responsibility for what edits are done by others who are anti-PJ. I have not spoken with anyone regarding the article, and I have not suggested to anyone that the article should be edited. 
An examination of the article history will clearly show that I have made minor edits to include the name of our organization in the list of vocal critics of PJ (which XavierVE has continuously removed), added a link to our site, and removed "PRO" statements regarding PJ from the "CONS" section in an attempt to bring the article into a more NPOV. That's it! Edits which were not carried out by "Scott Morrow" or (or IP 216.106.* before I was registered) were not done by me, and were not done as a result of any organized "attack". I have removed NO links at all in any of my edits.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, please examine the edits made by XavierVE, both under that name and IP 67.169.194.181 (his IP before being registered) - Note multiple additions of malicious accusations, bordering on outright defamation. In addition, his continuous reversions of the information regarding the reason for the denial of the harassment restraining order in the "cons" section are patently incorrect and biased. (I have a PDF copy of the actual judge's response which states that the order was primarily denied due to jurisdictional issues. If there is a way to "attach" such things to Wikipedia articles, I will be more than happy to do so) XavierVE continues to revert uncomplimentary information which was added in good faith.
There are MANY people who disagree with PJ's tactics, and they are not all members of our organization. Attributing all non-complimentary edits of the Wikipedia article to "pro-pedophiles" is an indication of XavierVE's lack of maturity. A review of the history of this discussion will reveal the fact that he has even maliciously edited comments made here in an attempt to discredit those who disagree with him. All those who disagree with PJ's tactics are labeled "pro-pedophile". Being anti-vigilante does not automatically make one "pro-pedophile". Similarly, because many people disagree with PJ's tactics and feel the need to edit the article, these edits should not be attributed to ME, or to some conspiricy initiated by Corrupted-Justice.com when this simply is not the case.
I would also be in agreement with a complete re-write of the article by a disinterested 3rd party. It is patently obvious that all attempts to show the opposing view of PJ will be hijacked by XavierVE, and should therefore be protected.
Scott Morrow 14:02, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

message: I came by to read this article and the talk page because of the reference on Slashdot.  I'm now stopping only long enough to give my thoughts, as a longtime Wikipedian with no dog in this fight.  I'm reading the version as of 20:40, 9 Jan 2005, immediately after an edit by EvilSaltine.  My impression is that the article (in this version, at least) is definitely slanted in favor of Perverted-Justice.com.  Some observations:
* In "Controversy", the "Pros" section is all Pros.  The "Cons" section has one Con graf, then a graf that's Con with a one-sentence Pro rebuttal at the end, then a graf with one Con sentence and a lengthy Pro rebuttal, then a graf with one sentence each way.  Suggestion: Either have all Pros in one section and all Cons in another, with no rebuttals allowed, or, if you want the back-and-forth argument, organize by issue instead of by alignment.
* Supporters who are cited "point out" this or "make clear" that.  This choice of words implies that what they say is true.  Wikipedia hasn't investigated these claims and should merely report them, not endorse them.  Supporters and opponents alike should be said to "claim" this, "argue" that, "allege" the other thing, etc.
* Say, did you know that an abducted girl was recovered because of the site?  It's a fact worth mentioning.  It's not a fact worth mentioning three different times.  Mention it once, preferably with a link to a disinterested media website where I can read more details.  (Is it undisputed that her recovery was because of the site?  I'd think that, without violating her privacy, it should be possible to include a sentence explaining what the mechanism was.)
* An earlier version had a link to a chatmag article critical of the site.  Why was that deleted?
* Trying to stabilize one particular version of the article and carve it in stone isn't the wiki way.  I suggest that everyone who wants to edit the article should register a user account.  There seems to have been a lot of energy wasted in bickering about who wrote what.  Anons should be warned that edits by anonymous IP's will be coldly received and are more likely to be reverted.  That isn't completely in keeping with a purist, fundamentalist view of the wiki way, but it's much less of a heresy than is permanent page protection.
OK, unsolicited advice mode off; I'm going back to the relative serenity of reverting vandals on George W. Bush.  Good luck, all.  JamesMLane 22:37, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the article needs NPOVing. - Evil saltine 07:04, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Passin' through

message: As usual, XavierVE should check his facts before running around shouting "liar". That fact that he is so quick to make assumptions and incorrect accusations is precisely the reason why the article is so slanted (as noted also by JamesMLane) and has been since XavierVE became involved in editing it. It is also precicely why many consider his organization to be a dangerous one. His investigative prowess is being displayed in his assigning blame for the edits of the article to the wrong person. This is typical of XavierVE's work.
"Jeffery Woloson" is no longer a volunteer with Corrupted-Justice.com, and has not been since November of last year. If he were making edits to the article, he would have been doing it of his own accord. Unfortunately, XavierVE's detective skills are somewhat lacking, and he is again blaming the wrong person. Jeff Woloson/Trex is not making the edits XavieVE is complaining about. Having also examined the IPs in question, I would strongly suggest that XavierVE re-check his facts. The user Trex upon which XavierVE is so quick to heap blame uses a static IP -  81.59.40.170. The edits in question are NOT being done by Trex. A number of the IPs quoted by XavierVE above belong to another outspoken critic of PJ, one who has no ties to Corrupted-Justice.com at all. In addition, assuming an edit via a proxy should automatically be attributed to me, or a member of our organization is patently childish. 
I had originally intended to add a juvenile response to the end of my post with some unfounded defamatory accusations and a few names of PJ contributors and the owner tossed in for good measure, but then I remembered, I'm an adult, and adults don't generally do that sort of thing. 
Scott Morrow 00:06, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response from [[Scott Morrow]]

message: working on this.. feel free to edit - Evil saltine 03:21, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: 1) I agree completely with the comment made above that this article, as currently written, appears to be nothing more than an advertisement for the PJ site.  Statements in the "Cons" section are supposed to represent the actual "cons" of the site, yet for virtually every "con" listed, statements such as "however, site supporters believe..." have been appended to counter what is being stated in the "con". The cons listed should show the negative aspects that critics cite, without the site owner's or supporter's caveats to those criticisms. 
2) Corrupted-Justice.com is one of the primary critics of Perverted-Justice. Our only reason for existence is to publicize the negative aspects of PJ. We are direct critics of PJ, acknowledged to be so in a considerable number of newspaper articles and other media. As our mandate is directly related to PJ (we would not exist were it not for PJ's existence), there is no question that Corrupted-Justice.com should be included in both the "links", and the list of critics in the "Cons" section. As for corrupted-justice.NET - They have stated numerous times on their own site that they have no relation to PJ. This has been reiterated in Pheobus Apollo's statement above. They have made it abundantly clear that they are separate entities with no direct relationship to PJ beyond existing to criticize a site which DOES have a direct link with PJ. If the article in question were ABOUT Corrupted-Justice.com, it would be reasonable for .net to have representation. The article is not about Corrupted-Justice.com - It is about perverted-justice.com, therefore, any references to cj.net should be removed.
3) Unless PJ supporters can provide externally verifiable proof that any of their critics are "pedophiles" or "pro-pedophile", making such statements are simply libelous and childish attempts to discredit their opposition. Asserting that a blog posting or usenet message is proof of ANYTHING is preposterous unless it can be independently proven that any such posting was actually made by the person being accused and if so proven, the circumstances surrounding the posting. Contrary to PJ's methods, guilt of anything is not assumed on the basis of claims made by those with an agenda to discredit and should therefore not be allowed in either the article or this discussion. While some may personally believe that Xavier Von Erck and Phoebus Apollo are "closet-pedophiles", making such a statement with no more proof than messages posted publicly on the Internet would, in most circles, be considered libel and should not be tolerated here either in the article or this dicussion.
4) The "exact figures" for the number of "busts" made by the site should include the exact number of 181 busts which were removed from the site due to not having been phone verified, and the exact number of 62 removed because they were conducted by "Tattooed Indian Guy" who was removed from the site and had all evidence of his existance subsequently removed. If the article is to present facts, the fact is that PJ has conducted 243 busts in addition to the number they display on the site. Not including these additional "busts" simply because they may cast doubt on the site's integrity is not in of itself a reason to hide the fact that 243 more people than the number stated by PJ have been affected by PJ. Regardless of the number stated on the site, these 243 "busts" occurred, and should be included.
5) Stating that PJ is "anti-pedophile" is an inacurate misnomer, as the vast majority of the almost 900 "busts" were never convicted in a court of law, and in the eyes of the legal system, very few if any of them are true "pedophiles". That PJ has made such accusations against these people does not necessarily make it true. Unless verifiable proof is shown that PJ only targets actual pedophiles, any reference to this term should be dropped.
--Scott Morrow 18:07, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  More input & comment 

message: I have no clue about the whole thing and no interest in it either apart from thinking that this article has gone seriously out of hand. I also believe that no one should write about him/her/themselves. This includes IMHO both PJ and CJ proponents. Further I believe that three internal links to one site are clearly far too much. Refdoc 19:30, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links and people slagging out it about their own websites 

message: "Have been credited with assisting in obtaining seven convictions since June of 2004, and was able to locate an abducted girl in September of 2004." - source for this please. If one can't be provided in 3 weeks, I will remove the material. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:52, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed