Talk:Meridian 59

message: {{From Mike Sellers: The posts below have become a sad reminder of a dysfunctional team from the past.  There are a number of untruths and half-truths being spread here.  I'll note these below as I have personal knowledge of them.  
-- The personal knowledge seems to be very flawed. The game demo that the Kirmse brothers made is what made raising money possible, though the Sellers raised the money. The Kirmse brothers ran the development team that built the game, except for a few artists. The Kirmse brothers were consulted heavily by 3DO before the acquisition happened, and the acquisition would not have happened without their consent. Finally, they continued to run the game development after the 3DO acquisition. During the whole time, there was a large disconnect between what people said they did and what actually occurred, and this appears to still be the case. People who worked on the game know the truth, both from the Archetype days and the 3DO days.
* Once again, the facts.  I'm being careful to speak only to what I know firsthand, unlike the comments above.
** The Kirmses' early demo made much of the later fund-raising for the company and the game possible.  Contrary to assertions made here (and below), Terra Nova Interactive was nevertheless a company (not an "empty shell") prior to the Kirmses' arrival with its initial funding secured, and both business and design documents in place.  
** When the Kirmses joined the company they were hired. We brought them on as junior partners, but this was not a merger or joining of forces.  The company was already in place, there were no discussions even vaguely along the lines of starting a company or merging groups.  They were offered salary and stock as junior but key members of a small team.  
** The Kirmses did not run the development team.  That responsibility fell variously to Mike Sellers and John Hanke.  The Kirmses were key members of the team, being the main programmers, and were responsible for their activities and for interfacing with world builders, but they did not have functional or management oversight on these or overall project concerns. 
** The Kirmses were asked for their input on the acquisition by 3DO (in what was later seen as part of an effort to be overly democratic in management by Steve, Mike, and John), but they did not meet with 3DO, were not part of the discussions there, and had no significant part in the acquisition.  The acquisition could have gone forward without the Kirmses' consent, as they were corporately not in a position to block such a decision.  The only thing they could have done would have been to withhold the code, something which was not considered a realistic concern until after the acquisition.  
** The Kirmses were not in management positions after the 3DO acquisition at least through the end of 1996.  They were responsible as project leaders for the continued development of their code that formed the foundation of the game.   
It's very sad to see that someone continues to try to revise the early history of this project.
The actual facts are:
* Andrew and Chris Kirmse invented the scripting language in 1993 on a hike on Mt. St. Helens.
* They started implementing the game during 1994.
* The entire client/server system, including very basic gameplay, existed by late summer 1995 when they first talked to the Sellers brothers and other suitors about forming a company. Eventually, the Kirmse brothers decided to work with the Sellers brothers.
** Partly true. The facts: 
*** The Kirmses wrote the client/server system and the script engine.
*** Andrew and Chris Kirmse responded to a call for resumes by Mike Sellers on Usenet
****Absolutely untrue 
***** The Kirmses contacted Mike Sellers because they already had a working game engine and the beginnings of a game. They were not interested in employment, as both were in various stages of university at the time.
******Not true. From Mike Sellers: After having worked with a group in Sweden that did not make sufficient progress on the game (by then well into design and pre-production), I put up a call for resumes on Usent.  Several people including Andrew and Chris Kirmse responded to this post.  I still have the resumes Andrew and Chris mailed in someplace (including claiming programming credits back to when they were young kids).  Deny it if you like (though why you would is beyond me), I have your letter in response to my post and our subsequent emails.  
** The Kirmses were hired by the Sellers and were awarded stock in Terra Nova interactive, which already existed.  There were no discussions about forming a company. 
***Absolutely untrue
**** Terra Nova already existed, but it was an empty shell as no money had been raised. All money was raised using the early version of the game that the Kirmses had created, together with a little artwork that Chris Sellers created.
*****Not true. From Mike Sellers: You're speaking about things you don't know about.  Terra Nova was incorporated in 1994 and again in mid-1995.  We raised early money (approximately 10-20% of our total budget) before we hired Andrew and Chris.  Steve and I jointly met with Andrew in Vienna Virginia, and drove down to meet with Chris at college in Blacksburg, to discuss hiring them into the company.  Steve and I made them an offer for salary and stock, negotiated, and hired them.  This was not a company formation nor a meeting of corporate equals.  We hired them as programmers (not CTOs).  Again, you can say these things if you like, but I have the business plan and corporate and employment records.
** In the summer 1995, no significant gameplay existed other than basic navigation in a very limited 2.5D world.  All game elements were implemented after September 1995.
* Mike Sellers, Steve Sellers, Andrew Kirmse, and Chris Kirmse all joined together in late 1995 as co-owners of the company later known as Archetype Interactive. All four of them became employees of the company. The Kirmses were co-CTOs of the company and were responsible for all programming and program management. The Sellers were responsible for fundraising and art management.
** Partly true.  The facts:
*** Terra Nova Interactive existed before the Kirmses were hired by the Sellers, having been formed in 1994 based on Mike Sellers' prior company, New World Designs.  
*** Terra Nova Interactive became Archetype Interactive after a trademark dispute forced the change.
*** The Kirmses, as with all other employees, were awarded stock in the company.  To that extent they were partial owners in the company, as were all employees.
*** The Kirmses were never officers nor co-CTOs of Terra Nova Interactive or Archetype Interactive, nor did they hold any executive or managerial position within the company at any time.  Steve and Mike Sellers were the officers of this company.
***Absolutely untrue
**** After joining with the Sellers to create a viable Terra Nova company, the Kirmses were co-CTOs
*****Not true. From Mike Sellers: Once again, these are unfortunate half truths.  I have corporate records, tax records, employment records, etc., for Terra Nova and Archetype Interactive.  Andrew and Chris Kirmse were never co-CTOs and never held an executive or managerial role in Terra Nova or Archetype Interactive.  Steve, Mike, and John were the sole company executives and directed every major decision on the game and in the company.  Andrew and Chris were the primary programmers but had no managerial or executive title or role.  There is no basis in fact for saying otherwise.  
*** The Kirmses were responsible for programming, but reported to Mike Sellers and John Hanke for program management.  Art and design were led by Mike Sellers with production oversight by John Hanke.  Steve Sellers was CEO and led all business development and funding activities along with Mike Sellers and John Hanke.  
* Andrew and Chris Kirmse wrote the client-server and scripting engine for this game. They also led the scripting team (as large as 6 scripters at one point) who developed and implemented all game play.
* After 3DO's acquisition of Meridian 59, Mike Sellers was moved off of the project and was laid off 7 months later.
** Partly True.  The facts:
*** After the acqusition by 3DO (the Kirmses did not participate in the discussions for this, despite this being reported elswhere), Steve Sellers was moved to business development for the company
***John Hanke became internal producer for Meridian 59.  
***Mike Sellers remained as Lead Designer and set up the internal customer service system. After the game's release he was moved to a lead position on a new online game product.  
**** Incorrect
***** Mike Sellers did not participate in any Meridian 59 game design after the acquisition, and very little before it. He was still given a designer credit on the product.
****** Untrue. From Mike Sellers: I'm not sure of the motivation here, but these statements simply aren't true.  Many people did a great deal of work on the design of Meridian 59 before its initial release, including Damion Schubert, Rob Ellis, and others.  I have no desire to take anything away from anyone else, but I'm no longer going to sit idly by and let others claim to have done things they didn't, or claim I didn't do work I did. I was the lead designer on Meridian 59 from its inception (before we hired Andrew and Chris) until its first release.
***In January of 1997, 3DO shut down all Internet projects and laid off the entire division except for a skeleton crew maintaining Meridian 59.  
****Incorrect
***** Meridian 59's development team actually expanded during these layoffs.
******A half-truth.  Parts of M59 staff expanded (scripting, CS), while others contracted.  All other Internet projects at 3DO were discontinued, and all employees working on these projects (whose staff greatly exceeded M59's staff), from the VP on down, were laid off.
**Early in 1997, having left 3DO, Steve and Mike Sellers and John Hanke formed their next startup, The Big Network, which was acquired in 1999 by eUniverse.
***Steve Sellers went on to be the COO of a company not in the games industry.
***John Hanke went on to be CEO of Keyhole, now part of Google.
***Mike Sellers went on to be a Senior Designer at Electronic Arts, and now is CEO of Online Alchemy.
 
The facts remain:
* Andrew and Chris Kirmse wrote the client-server and scripting engine for this game
* Mike and Steve Sellers formed Terra Nova Interactive in 1994 to create "Meridian" (later called Meridian 59 at Chris Kirmse's insistance that it had to have a number in the title).  
* The Kirmses were hired by the Sellers and were employees of Terra Nova Interactive, which later became Archetype Interactive, well after the project was under way, and primarily for their client-server technology.  They were awarded stock in the company but had no management role (despite being called "project leads")
* The Kirmses had little role in designing the game, either before or after the acquisition by 3DO
* The design of M59 was originally done by Mike Sellers, later joined by Damion Schubert.  Damion did a large share of the low-level design, while Mike focused on user interface, story, systems, and world layout.  Many others contributed to the art and world layout. 
* Steve (CEO) and Mike Sellers (President), along with John Hanke (VP Marketing and biz dev), were co-responsible for the management of the company and the project from day-to-day issues involving technology, art, design, and production, all the way up to funding and the acquisition of the company.
* Andrew and Chris Kirmse had no role in the acquisition discussions with 3DO.  The figure cited elsewhere that Archetype was bought for $5M in stock is incorrect.  The actual price was between $7-8M, but, being a stock-swap deal, fluctuated with 3DO's stock price.
'What is this junk?  A huge block of unreadable text is not acceptable here, as it does not advance the discussion for improvement of the article.  The above does not make any sense, as one can not learn who said what, what is supposed to be fact, and what is supposed to be fiction.  The whole thing is useless garbage. 65.209.6.2 (talk) 21:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Developer commentary

message: I found two launch times from 1996:
* September 16 or 17
** the date on a press release posted by Mike Sellers at exactly 12:00 AM on Sept. 17 [
** note though that it says the game is available, but won't be on store shelves until "early October"
** also another 3DO press release dated Sept. 16 says that M59 "will be introduced tomorrow" ()
* September 27 
** the date of "public release" in a 2001 press release from NDS ()
** Andrew Kirmse also used this date at MobyGames ()
** if shipped on this date, it would correlate with their "early October" plans from the 16th
My guess is that the game officially ended its beta phase on Sept. 16 or 17, but didn't ship until the 27th (and therefore the 27th would be the most relevant date).  I know this is all pedantic, but since I've already bothered to look I might as well post what I found. --Mrwojo 19:26, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I think I based the Sept. 16th date that I put in the article off of the NDS site and some old 3DO press releases, but just looking at your points here convinces me the game was more likely released September 27th.  Nice work.  - user:defunkt 21:50, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Release date

message: In this section,
"Players choose from seven skill/spell schools, six of which are based on patron gods in the game world's mythos: Weaponcraft, Shal'ille, Qor, Kraanan, Faren, Riija, and Jala. Each school has a different focus and application in gameplay."
it says "six of which," while seven things are listed, although weaponcraft doesn't seem like it fits.  Please correct this misunderstanding.--Notmyhandle 03:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Necessary clarification of spell schools 

message: Recently, someone attempted to add links that were related to some pirate communities.  I've removed the links... and then one of the links were reposted with a more "innocent" name (an unofficial forum), but there are very few posts and activity for the forum to even be worth mentioning in Wikipedia.  There was also an addition of a small paragraph claiming that a number of people are searching for pirate servers.  Wikipedia is not an advertisement vehicle for pirate communities.
Also, someone claimed that Meridian 59 was based on another game called Scepter of Goth.  We'll need proof or citations... 
edit: My apologies.  I just found the proof of the inspiration.  Perhaps a citation will help. Isolocis 00:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scepter of Goth and Pirate Communities 

message: The link to Gilroy's site (http://www.gilcon.net/meridian/) is a legitimate site that should remain linked on the page.  It's the primary fan site for the game. Psychochild 10:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: Near Death Studios founded by a couple of the original developers is still running the game for a fee so I removed references to this obviously pirate server.
:I've killed the advertisement for the pirate server a couple of times as well.
:Looking through the article history I see this phrase : 
: "Shortly after 3DO shut the game down on August 31, 2000. A developer of the game leaked the server software and the files for Meridian 59:Renaissance to a player, and since then there has been a thriving community of free-to-play servers."
:If this could be sourced and was rephrased "a small community of pirate(or illegal) servers." it might belong back in the article. It seems to be both relevant and interesting. And there's no problem on WP talking about copyright violations, so long as we don't link directly to the pirate servers.
:Oddly enough I can't find any MMORPG articles that even mention unofficial servers. I thought they existed for most popular MMORPGs. APL (talk) 15:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI: This domain is getting blacklisted for persistent linkspamming. --A. B. (talk •  contribs)  22:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  www.m59online.com/ 

message: Described in Matt Barton's Dungeons and Desktops: the History of Computer Role-playing Games (viewable at Amazon) on pages 399-400, with a screenshot. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 07:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Source 

message: I hear that when it was purchased at 3D0, the 3D0 team discovered that about 20% of the players were using the game as a platform for cybersex. This led one developer to suggest that they run with that and do a sex oriented variant, which was nixed by executives. Developers called this suggestion internally Meridian 69. - 67.188.108.84 (talk) 05:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't have a source but pretty funny 

message: To make it easier for third opinions I will quickly summarise my opinion why I am against this link here:
The discussed link is how I already explained violating against #13 "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. ... Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject.". The article is about the game Meridian59 in general and not abot Meridian59 Server 103. The private homepage is only about the game mechanics and changes of one specific server which is also owned by the same person who runs the homepage (potential conflict of interest) and not about the game in general. I also see it as advertisement of this one specific server since when u enter the homepage the first things u see is "Home of Server 103" and "Server 103 Changelogs", "Server 103 Charter", "Server 103 Statistics" and also the tool with which you can create an account for this one server to play on it. It also links only to the forum, IRC chat and blog of the developers team of this one specific server. Even the linked game wiki on this homepage is only about this one server and it also links to the server 103 github group where people can submit code changes for server 103. The guideline #13 and the easy to see advertisement effect for 103 of this homepage are what make this homepage not suitable for the Meridian59 article. Kind regards Seader (talk) 19:37, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third opinions 

message: Hi. As the issue has been raised at Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard#Open Meridian Project URL on Meridian 59, it is no longer a candidate for a third opinion -- a third opinion isn't a fourth or a fifth or a sixth opinion, but a third, and "forum shopping" is not allowed. But I hope the following may help:
# The edit warring appears to have died down now, so I'm not going to report any of you to the edit warring noticeboard now, but please take this as a final warning.
# The proper procedure here is described in the essay Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, usually referred to as WP:BRD. It says that it's OK to boldly do something, but if that is reverted in good faith, you don't edit war, you discuss.
# Following WP:BRD would have meant that the addition of the link would have been reverted, so you'd have discussed while the link was not present. That's the state of the article as of now, so there's nothing to do (otherwise I'd have reverted it to that state). To re-add it would be edit warring again.
#  you were ill advised to add the subsection above. No 3O volunteer is really going to give an opinion without reading the whole discussion in detail, and nobody would be influenced by one side's "summary". I'm sure you didn't mean it badly, but it is inappropriate to do that.
# Regardless of whether the disputed link and the remaining one belong in the article (which the noticeboard will advise on), they emphatically do not belong in the article's text. Links that aren't used in citations are placed in the External links section at the end. I'm going to do that now, and I'll erase the Open source projects subsection since it will then have no text. That's without prejudice to your recreating it if you have some suitable text to write in there.
Good luck all. I hope the resolution at the noticeboard will settle things. --Stfg (talk) 21:29, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I will keep that in mind. thx. kind regards Seader (talk) 03:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to request for third opinion 

message: Without the "pirates" there would be no Meridian 59 today. It's a historical fact that I don't know who and I don't care to know.
What I do care about though is that the fact that after 3d0 abandoned the game the server was leaked, in whatever way, to Russia
where someone known as "Devil" ran the only remaining pirate server. This server however was obtained, in whatever way, to inspire
a new "age of enlightenment" aka the reverse engineering process of the game client and server.
The key figures in the community could have destroyed what PC & Q were building when they re-aquired the codebase.
But they didn't.
The game still exists today because of the community/pirates. And like it or not it's part of the history of this game.
And it is relevant.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.42.211 (talk) 10:29, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Pirate Years