Talk:Ancient Macedonian language/Archive 2

message: ::::As I have said before, I have no problem with the article as it stands now, nor do I wish it changed at this point.  The conversation so far has satisfied me that Decius' grasp of the subject is superficial and patchy, at best.  What I have asked for repeatedly, is to be directed to online primary sources of the original material used in the Glossary.  You guys have not been forthcoming.  Why is this?  If there is no online stuff, let me know so that I can start raiding the bookshops.  BTW, since I am a 'Graf', shouldn't you address me as Durchlaut? :-P Chronographos 11:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: it should be simple tracing all those words using the TLG database. However, it would take me a couple of hours. Pay me, and I'll do it :) dab (ᛏ) 11:22, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Macedonian words in the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae?!?  Conspiracy, conspiracy!  Nevertheless I had obtained (I won't say how) "TLG CD-E+ PHI5&7+ Musaios + TLG Workstation", an archive about 800 MB big after unzipping.  I am confused as to this: is CD-E sufficient or do I need A, B, C and D as well, so to speak?  Chronographos 12:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: um, one CD should be sufficient. You will only find the words attested by Greek authors, of course, i.e. things like Theophrastus' maple, and of course Hesychius. Epigraphical stuff like coins will not be on there. dab (ᛏ) 12:52, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's ok, I have ways and means and connections, you know.  I may get access to the work of Stefanos Koumanoudis the Younger, a leading epigraphologist, and the grandson of SK the Elder, another legend who worked with, among others, Doerpfeld, and a member of the Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres.  When the younger SK went to Paris for his advanced studies, his professeur asked each student to rise and introduce themselves.  When SK started "Je m' appelle Stéphane Koumanoudis ...", the professor waved him down: "Je vous connai, Monsieur".  Such was the renown of his grandfather!  Chronographos 13:13, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: why then do we not have a Stephanos Koumanoudis article? Get busy man! — We don't have Wilhelm Doerpfeld, for that matter. But note :de:Wilhelm Dörpfeld. dab (ᛏ) 13:19, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Two articles, you mean.  All in good time.  I am now trying to locate the new poem by Sappho that was reconstructed from the Oxyrhynchus findings, as published in TLS yesterday.  Then I need to work on my presentation to a medical convention next weekend :-PPP  etc etc.  Chronographos 13:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: he was joking! the names of Indian tribes, and words like aananaananalaaa, aioiaoiiiaaao, arithosaaaaa are found in the TLG. dab (ᛏ) 13:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Graecia capta ferum captorem cepit, et artis intulit agresti Latio Horace, Epistulae, 2.1.156 Chronographos 14:44, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: and Akhaioi!= Elliniki, one is tempted to add. dab (ᛏ) 15:19, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  i-je-re-ja e-ne-ka ku-ru-so-jo i-je-ro-jo to you too! :P Chronographos 15:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: TLG

message: The Pella katadesmos is pretty compelling proof of ancient Macedonian being a form of Greek. Good job, guys. As for whether the others considered the Macedonians barbarians, well... My mother is a vociferous Maniot from Kalamata who considers the Maniots the only true Greeks as "no Turk ever set foot in the Mani". Even the non-Maniot Messenians (like my father) are suspect, and she has absolutely no time for the Macedonians: "They're like the Yugoslavs, they eat too many peppers."--Theathenae 17:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope this nice amateur ethnologist lady is as good at her area of expertise (=dishwashing) Chronographos 17:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: How sure can you be that Klingon was not spoken as well, Decius? Chronographos 17:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Wow. The Macos spoke Doric and Attic in addition to their own tongue. Such talent. No wonder they gobbled up Slavonic so readily.--Theathenae 18:00, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: No, I didn't imply bilingualism necessarily, I meant geographical co-incidence. Decius 18:02, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Venom becomes Decius (yawnnnnn, what else is new ...) Chronographos 17:56, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: That is probably closer to the mark than anything you've ever written, Decie. The Greeks have been at each other's throats as a national pastime since antiquity, and the biggest insult in the book is to question someone's Greekness.--Theathenae 18:00, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: No, it's your dry drunk brain that cannot grasp complex realities  Chronographos 18:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: For the time being, grasp a bottle.  It won't be the first time ... and there's nothing wrong with "comfort foods" per se Chronographos 18:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Attic Greek became dominant from the 4th century, yes, but the language of the katadesmos is certainly not Attic. It looks like Doric, but it isn't. It is precisely these differences from Doric that suggest it is in fact Macedonian. But still unmistakably Greek.--Theathenae 18:18, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Decie, the débâcle you speak of concerns 18-year-old Kosovar Albanau's insistence that a "pure Arvanítis is a pure Albanian" and his latest pearl of wisdom, namely that "the Tosk and the Gheg" are "mostly mutually intelligible", despite all evidence to the contrary. See Talk:Albanian language#Gheg and Tosk, mostly mutually intelligible?--Theathenae 18:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Would you two please keep off-topic disussions where they belong?  Thank you ever so kindly Chronographos 18:53, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pella katadesmos 

message: *adē "clear sky" (Attic αἴθρη aíthrē), adraia "bright weather" (Hes. Attic αἰθρία aithría, PIE *aidh-)
something went wrong here. The point of mentioning "Hes." is that Hesychius said:
*adē: aithra
*adraia: aithrios
i.e. aithra is a translation, by Hesychius, we are not claiming adē is identical to aithra (although it is probably related). We then translate Hesychius' translations into English, aithra as "clear sky" and aithria as "bright weather". If you fiddle with the glossary, please make sure you understand what's already there in the first place. dab (ᛏ) 19:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know I know. It's not a disaster either. It's just not clear why the "Hes." is there anymore. dab (ᛏ) 19:31, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: ok, even my original entry may have been wrong. I have to check Hesychius. All I know is that Pokorny links both words to aidh "to burn". dab (ᛏ) 20:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, this guy actually writes it αβός, but my Doric is rather sketchy so I opted for LS Attic. Damn Koine. In that case, abagna is almost certainly derived from , possibly compounded with my suggestion .--Theathenae 21:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: He's not in Greece, he's in Melbourne, Australia. And even philologists can get emotional sometimes. :)--Theathenae 21:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Είναι βέβαια αλήθεια ότι από την αρχαία μακεδονική διάλεκτο διασώθηκε ελάχιστος μόνο αριθμός λέξεων, περί τις 350, από τις οποίες οι 200 είναι ανθρωπωνύμια, όπως Αμύντας, Αλκέτας, Αρχέλαος, Φιλώτας, Λάγος, Εύδαμος, Μαχάτας, Βερενίκη, Θεσσαλονίκη (όλα ελληνικά), και οι υπόλοιπες κοινά ονόματα, όπως ακρουνοί, κάραβος, κεβαλά, πεζέταιρος, νικάτωρ, αβρούτες, άβαγνα (στη συντριπτική τους πλειοψηφία ελληνικές λέξεις και αυτές), κι αυτό χάρις στη μανία του λεξικογράφου του 5ου αι. μ.Χ., Ησύχιου
I've mentioned kebala before: see Talk:Macedon. Decius 20:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, that slipped my mind. In fact, if we have Berenikē, but kebala what does that tell us about the Doricity of XMK? Shouldn't it be either Berenika or kebalē? dab (ᛏ) 20:59, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: o) in fact, I begin to believe they were Dorians who had re-voiced their aspirates (and no, Ch'graphos didn't bribe me with alcohol). The name would have been Berenika, but was changed back to -e as a matter of fact when Attic became the dernier cri. This isn't compatible with the katadesmos, which is un-XMK in any case. This would mean that any word containing kh, ph or th must be foreign to XMK (i.e. chuck away all the names with Th, Ph etc., they're just Greek). We really need to find a case of intervocalic s! dab (ᛏ) 21:12, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: How about XMK just never got round to devoicing and (re)aspirating the PIE consonants that were devoiced and aspirated elsewhere, rather than being a form of Doric that had its aspirates revoiced? In other words, truly archaic Greek.--Theathenae 21:37, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: it wouldn't be Greek then, but "Graeco-Macedonian", i.e. the remaining Greek would have  done a common innovation. That's also possible, of course. They would not be Dorians, in that case. We just don't know enough. dab (ᛏ) 21:45, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Thaethenae, that is what I've been arguing here from the beginning. The sound-differences are archaic and were retained in Macedonian, a language belonging to a Greco-Macedonian group. It is not unlikely, and I don't know why some Greeks abhor the idea (irrational reaction). Decius 21:48, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Did they have to speak a Doric Greek dialect in order for one to connect to them? No. I can connect to them regardless of what language they spoke. I'm not a xenophobe. The words known from Macedonian suggest something beyond a Doric dialect. Decius 21:50, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it was Doric either. I was thinking more along the lines of North-Western Greek, which was related to but not quite the same as Doric Greek. "Both NW Greek and Doric are in some respects more archaic than the other Greek dialects." In other words, more IE, as the other Greek dialects arrived much earlier and absorbed significant pre-Hellenic substratal elements. I guess that begs the question, how do you define "Greek"? Perhaps the traditional definition is no longer valid. I'd say that Macedonian was definitely Hellenic in the Indo-European sense, and "Greek" would've probably remained pretty damn similar were it not for the non-IE influences.--Theathenae 22:02, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I'd like to see this article expanded Proto-Greek language. Decius 22:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You're right, Decie. I thought of that immediately after my last post, but was thrown off by XMK's wacky voicing patterns.  'at the end (or extremity)', from  'point, edge'.--Theathenae 21:15, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: transliteration etc.

message: Browsing through Pokorny, I stumbled upon the elusive Pydna etymology .... 
__________________________
Root / lemma: *bhudh-m(e)n? 
Meaning: bottom 
German meaning: `Boden' 
Note: single-linguistic in part to *bhudh-mo-, partly to *bhudh-no-, besides with already idg. metathesis *bhundho- > *bhundo- ?  
Material: Old Indian budhná-ḥ `ground, bottom'; av. bū̆nō ds. (*bhundhno-), out of it borrows arm. bun ds., during arm. an-dund-k` `abyss' from *bhundh- seems assimilated. From proto iran. *bundhas derives tscherem. pundaš `bottom, ground '. 
*Gr. πυθμήν (*φυθ-) m. `bottom, sole, base of a vessel', πύνδαξ m. ds. (for φύνδαξ after πυθμήν Schwyzer Gr. Gr. I 71, 333).  
*Maked. PN Πύδνα (*bhudhnā), dissimil. Κύδνα? 
*Lat. fundus, -ī m. ` ground; the bottom or base of anything; a farm, estate' (*bhundhos), profundus `deep' = mir. bond, bonn m. `sole, foundation, groundwork, basis, pad, prop
maybe alb. (*fundus), fund `bottom, end', fundos `sink (to the bottom)'
*Ahd. bodam, nhd. Boden, as. bodom, ags. *boðm > mengl. bothem m. besides ags. botm m. > engl.bottom and ags. bodan `bottom, ground', 
Maybe alb. (bod-) botë ` bottom, ground, earth, world'
an. botn `bottom', ags. byðme ` bilge, floor, bottom ' besides bytme, bytne ds., aisl. bytna ` to come to the bottom ', with unclear dental change; it seems to lie a basic proto germ. *buÞma- , probably is to be explained analogically; compare Petersson Heterokl. 18, Sievers-Brunner 167, Kluge11 under siedeln. About nhd. Bühne, originally ` wooden floor (made from floorboards) ', angebl. from germ. *bunī, idg. *budhniā, s. Kluge11 under Bühne.  
References: WP. II 190, WH. I 564 f., 867, Porzig WuS. 15, 112 ff. (against it Kretschmer Gl. 22, 116); compare also Vendryes MSL. 18, 305 ff. 
Page(s): 174 
__________________________
... and it duly rang a few bells: it seems to me that, besides πύνδαξ, *bhudh-m(e)n has yet another Greek cognate, βένθος, which would be the exact equivalent of Latin fundus.  So, is it that there are 2 Greek words showing loss of aspiration in both places of *bhudh-m(e)n ? Chronographos 15:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Id's almozd doo koot do pe drue, innid?--Theathenae 17:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd wait for dab's opinion; he's a linguist and I'm not.  Chronographos 18:12, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

text: My AHD says benthos is from PIE *gwadh-, 'to sink', in which case it wouldn't be an example of that type of sound-change (it would be a common PIE *gw --> Greek 'b' change). A Greek 'b' often derives from PIE *gw-. Decius 18:35, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: True, see βούς (ox).  Pokorny says that bathos derives from *gwadh-, which makes perfect sense, and that "βένθος `depth' secondary after πένθος : πάθος;", as obviously a *gwadh- derivation does not account for the -n-.  I wonder how valid this "roundabout" etymology is.  The *bhudh-m(e)n one looks much more straightforward, as the "metathesis *bhundho- " is accounted for .  What do you make of πύνδαξ ? Chronographos 19:24, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm... I agree that βένθος=fundus is pretty convincing. Also, note that the Macedonian toponym is Πύδνα, not Βύδνα, indicating that it underwent the same sound change as πυθμήν.--Theathenae 19:37, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, things that make you go "Hmmmmmmm....."  Chronographos 19:41, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

text: PIE *bh- changing to 'p' seems to be ocassionally attested in Greek, but PIE *bh- to 'b' is considered to be pretty much impossible for Greek. That's why linguists do not derive benthos from *bhudh-. Circular reasoning? May be, but these linguists have devoted many years to studying these sound-changes, while we haven't. Decius 19:43, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So, apparently what you are saying is that Πύδνα underwent a "Greek-type" sound change in the first consonant and a "Macedonian-type" sound change in the second consonant? Chronographos 00:19, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

text: "I'm" not saying anything regarding Pydna. Pokorny is the one who came up with the etymology, while at the same time Pokorny did not consider ancient Macedonian a Greek dialect. So you can pin it on Pokorny. I have not tackled the issue regarding Pydna or its etymology, or what it may or may not imply. Realize that in terms of Wikipedia, we can only use the research that is already out there. Decius 00:28, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No need to get defensive, all I was asking for was a "Hmmmmm ...." Chronographos 00:44, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

text: It seems to me that what O'Neil is suggesting in his abstract is that Macedonians might have actually been pronouncing β as -bh- and when widely confronted with Attic spelling that clashed with their own pronunciation, they proceeded to drop their own spelling altogether.  Chronographos 19:56, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Arsenio Hall|Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmm....."]]

message: There are several types of Yauna in the Achaemenid Royal Inscriptions:
(1)
Yaunβ in general: the same as the Greeks known as "Ionians", i.e.,
those living in Asia Minor. They can already be found in the Behistun
Inscription, when the Persian rule had not yet reached Europe. This
identification is 100% certain.
(2)
Yaunβ takabarβ, the 'Greeks with shield-shaped hats'. First mentioned
in DNa ( http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DNa.html ), where
they are distinguished from the "normal" Yaunβ: an almost certain
reference to the Macedonian sunhats.
(3 and 4)
"The Yaunβ, near and across the sea": another division, for the first
time found in DSe ( http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DSe.html
) and in a slightly different form in the Daiva Inscription by Xerxes
(XPh: http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/XPh.html ). The obvious
reading is "the Asian Yauna and the European Yauna", i.e., -again-
Asian Greeks and Macedonians.
On the other hand, Persian inscriptions are fairly stereotypical, and
the fact that there is a small difference between the precise wording
of DSe and XPh suggests that there is a difference. Perhaps, there is
a difference between the "Yauna across the sea" and the sunhat-Yaunβ.
If this is correct, the Yauna across the sea must be either Cypriot
Greeks (but why didn't Darius, who seems to have subdued Cyprus,
mention them?) or the Thessalians, Boeotians, and Athenians - nations
that Xerxes could claim to have conquered.
(5)
There is a seal from the age of Xerxes (
http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/yauna_seal.jpg ) in which the great
king defeats someone looking like a Yauna. It is unique, because a
second man appears to have a hand in the killing, and this man looks
like a Yauna. Is this the Macedonian king Alexander who helps killing
a Thessalian/Boeotian/Athenian??
Such instances are extremely rare since only a handful
of original Persian texts have survived.There are of references by Darius I in
the Behistun Inscription to Sardis (OP Sparda), Ionia (OP Yauna) and
Cappadocia (OP Katpatuka). There are also a couple of statements
concerning the Greeks and their tribes in the Babylonian tablets.
:Thank you, Megistias, but this does not belong here: this is a primarily linguistics article.  It belongs in "Macedon" where you posted it as well - although it has already been discussed there to some extent.  Chronographos 11:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: PERSIANS NAMING OF THE GREEKS & THE VARIOUS GREEKS TRIBES

message: Ancient Macedonian language was a Greek dialect. No doubt about that. So stop claiming the opposite. 
Right now I don't have enough free time to expand this article, but I del all the false or irrelevant material. 
Decius, why don't u give us facts instead of typing false statements in this article?
:About half of the article (if not more) was written User:Dbachmann. It has also been contributed to by User:Chronographos, User:Theathenae, and User:Miskin. Nothing in the article is my own idea. There is no propaganda in the article, especially no propaganda from me. The scientific community is still debating whether ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect. Decius 18:18, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Άκου να σου πω, νέοπα.  Εμείς εδώ μέσα έχουμε φτύσει αίμα.  Δεν θα έρθεις εσύ να τα κάνεις λαμπόγυαλο επειδή έτσι σου κάβλωσε.  Θα είσαι ήρεμος, θα συζητάς, θα υπογράφεις ό,τι γράφεις με 4 περισπωμένες, θα δημιουργήσεις user page στ' όνομά σου, και γενικά θα είσαι φρόνιμος και υπάκουος μέχρι να μάθεις τα κατατόπια.  Αλλιώς θα βγεις στον τάκο.  Έγινα σαφής? Chronographos 18:28, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Και ποιός έγραψε τα άρθρα Macedon kai Hesychius νομίζεις?  Η μάνα σου?  Εμείς τα γράψαμε, και μας βγήκανε τα μάτια να τα δακτυλογραφήσουμε.  Φάε τώρα ένα blockάκι να ηρεμήσεις.  Chronographos 18:38, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

text: You must be watching too much Liakopoulos on TV.  As a matter of fact we Greeks came from Sirius in spaceships. Chronographos 18:52, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Your dad. Chronographos 18:56, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Sirian Chronographos 19:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Macedons Language was Greek

message: If u don't prove in 48 hours that I'm wrong and your thesis is correct, then the article will be changed.
:::Hmmm, sir, excuse me, may I humbly ask for 49 hours, please, sir, please?  Chronographos 14:24, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The conclusion is wrong: Hesychius collected Thracian words in his glossary also. So first you have to prove that the Thracians were Hellenes. Decius 14:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Some of the Thracian words Hesychius collected in his Lexicon are brynchon, bruton, kalamindar, skarke, torelle, zibythides, and some others. He also has words from other peoples, such as sukalobon, from the Mysians. Decius 14:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: You're wrong again. Those words are accepted as Thracian by most scholars. For example, Hesychius writes that kalamindar was a word that the Edonians used for the plane tree. The Edonians were a Thracian tribe. We don't have to prove anything here: scholarly references are cited for all theories, including the Greek dialect theory. Any admin who supports you is incompetent. Decius 14:56, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmmm, ask for 49 and a half hours? Chronographos 15:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Kalamindar (from Hesychius) is mentioned as word among the Edonians in this site I'll link, quoting a linguist and Thracologist: .  Decius 15:12, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Manos, I don't know if you are fourteen years old, but that section you're quoting, describing the various theories, was quoted or paraphrased by Dbachmann from a linguistic reference, as indicated (Mallory and Adams, 1997, pg. 361). It is not one thesis, nor is it an original thesis of a Wiki contributor. Decius 15:21, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not asking you or any reader to believe or even consider that ancient Macedonian was not a Greek dialect. What I do expect is for people to realize that scholars are still disputing the issue, and the article seeks to be agnostic, and to summarize the debate. If you think there are specific problems with the article or if you feel it is too slanted to one side or another, then discuss your objections more specifically. Decius 15:42, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I did/do have those references, some of which are mentioned in the article (read the article). That quote doesn't say I have references that prove it was separate. Decius 16:02, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: You're comparing fringe pseudo-scholars to an actual debate among current specialists. Decius 16:09, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: You're right about one thing: as of 16:19 July 30 2005, no one can prove that Macedonian was not a Greek dialect. The article is still giving a legitimate summary of the controversy. Decius 16:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Yeah, we've discussed this issue before. Linguists have also considered that many of the non-Greek words may have been borrowed. Other linguists consider them authentic Macedonian words (Julius Pokorny, Eugene Borza, Antoine Meillet, etc.). Decius 16:27, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: All the evidence? No doubt at all? Okay. Thank you for revealing this to the world. Decius 16:34, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm busy. I'm planning on organizing the Illyrian tribes in this article today:Illyria. In the meanwhile, I hope no "admins" out there continue to support any vandalism to this article, because I will see to it that those admins are stripped of their adminship. Decius 16:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thesis for change 

message: at this stage, this is just trolling and vandalism. I will not even enter the debate unless he drops the leet speech and the ranting. I do imagine he is fourteen, or maybe thirteen years old. And apparently cheerfully uninhibited by manners or methodology. We are saying that it was possibly Greek and that people aren't sure, so I really don't know what he wants. The '48 hours ultimatum' is unwiki to boot. During his brief appearance, he managed to accumulate enough misbehaviour for an arbcom filing, that's quite an acheivement. I do propose that until user agrees to behave and cite his sources (lol), his edits count as pure vandalism and should be rolled back on sight. 
WP is not an education facility for difficult teenagers, so let him take his ego elsewhere. dab (ᛏ) 07:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No personal attacks, or you will be blocked for disruption. This is the only warning you get.--Wiglaf 09:44, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

text: for pity's sake Chronographe, can you talk some sense into this compatriot of yours? Manos, there is an article. read it. This talkpage is for discussing the article, not for idle chatter. For the third and final time, if you (English pronoun, 2nd person) don't stop your AOLese spelling (yes, the "net language", not even leet, according to that article), I will not even begin to enter a debate with you.  This is not usenet. dab (ᛏ) 10:15, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wish I could, dab, but I think it is hopeless.  I do not intend to respond to his rants anymore, and you have my full blessings to deal with him as harshly as WP rules allow.  I also concur that his "contributions" be moved somewhere out out of sight, the sooner the better.  Chronographos 14:52, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was being theatralic; I do not think there is a problem, we had Antifinnugor, Zivibundias and who else, that's not even a hiccup by Wikipedia standards, I'd say :) dab (ᛏ) 16:08, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Manos, I urge your to read this discussion, from bottom and down. You should also be aware that you're committing something that I strongly disprove of, you shift Burden of proof in order to claim Negative proof with the purpose of having an Ignoratio elenchi.--Wiglaf 10:50, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: yeah, on top of doing it on the entirely wrong talkpage, and without bringing up anything that hasn't been long in the articles. Why, he even quotes our own Macedon article to show how ignorant we are. What a clown, you really get all sorts on WP :o) dab (ᛏ)
to enable us to continue reasonable discussion, Manos' ejaculations should be moved to Talk:Ancient Macedonian language/MANOS. dab (ᛏ) 11:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I've been communicating on the internet for 13 years now; that doesn't mean I have to sound like a 1337 h4XX0r ;) sigh, 'the crude truncations of the lower classes'  dab (ᛏ) 16:10, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "MANOS"

message: It is a fact that before the time of Alexander "philhellene", the Macedonians were not viewed as Greek, no ancient authors have wrote as such until Herodotus, who in any case made reference only to the royal lineage of Macedonia and not the general population. 
It is important to note that all other ancient Greek historians followed Herodotus' lead in regards to the argive descent of the Macedonain kngs, no other sources of the time corroborate these version of events. The closest following was Thucydides, who almost 25 years younger, would almost certainly have had access to Herodotus' Histories. Thereafter, ancient authors begin to consider Macedonia within the sphere of Greece, however the native population of the lands and even their kings were, even until Roman times, considered semi-barbaric. There is the suggestion that the ancient Macedonian language was a mere dialect of Greek, however considering the lack of authentic words(and access to them) and contrary historical evidence, this theory is not very plausable. Historians make several remarks that indicate distinction between ancient Macedonian and the Greek language. For example, Thucydides, book 4, 109;
"Brasidas, after the capture of Amphipolis, marched with his allies against the place called Acte. This is the jutting out headland, with the Kig of Persia's canal on the landward side, and with the high mountain of Athos at the end facing the Aegean sea. The cities in Acte are Sane, a colony of Andros, which is just by the canal on the sea facing towards Euboea, and also Thyssus, Cleone, Acrothoi, Olophyxus, and Dium - all these latter towns being inhabited by mixed foreign races, speaking both Greek and their own dialects. There is a small Chalcidian element, but the majority are Pelasgian, of the Tyrrhenian race that once lived in Lemnos and Athens, together with Bisaltians, Crestonians and Edonians."
Penguin Classics
"Brasidas after the capture of Amphipolis marched with his allies against Acte, a promontory running out from the king's dike with an inward curve, and ending in Athos, a lofty mountain looking towards the Aegean sea. In it are various towns, Sane, an Andrian colony, close to the canal, and facing the sea in the direction of Euboea; the others being Thyssus, Cleone, Acrothoi, Olophyxus, and Dium, inhabited by mixed barbarian races speaking the two languages. There is also a small Chalcidian element; but the greater number are Tyrrheno-Pelasgians once settled in Lemnos and Athens, and Bisaltians, Crestonians, and Edonians."
The texts above are in regards to near coastal areas and Hellenic colonies in Macedonia. Notice how it states that there are two languages spoken in the region, the barbaric language with its own dialects and the Greek. This is only in reference to the regions inhabited by both natives and Greek, the second language of Greek being imported along with the founding of new colonies. Further north the inhabitants would have been more ignorant of the Greek language. A clear distinction is thus made with this fragment, where a native language with its own dialects is assumed to exist alongside Greek. Evidence like this should not be ignored. Of the native inhabitants of Macedonia, Strabo writes;
"Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotæ are settled even at present on the sides of Greece. Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Ætolia, by Thesproti, Cassopæi, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes." 
VII, 7, 1.
Making it absolutely clear that even during Stabo's lifetime, the Thracian living space extended further south than Macedonia. Of these barbaric tribes so often mentioned by the Greeks many would indeed have been linguistically related, as is demonstrated with the above text in regards to the natives of Macedonia and the Thracians. This text is also very revealing for it places the Epirote in the Thraco-Illyric category identified as barbarians. Thus the next quote supplements the "related barbarians" theory by demonstrating a linguistic and cultural connection between the Macedonians and the Epirote, Strabo;
"They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Corcyra, at the same time assigning as their reasons, the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys, and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians; some of them, however, speak two languages. On the dissolution of the Macedonian empire, they fell under the power of the Romans."
VII, 7, 8.
Macedonia is of course, a part of Greece according to Strabo, however what Macedonia is he refering to? And in that same 'matter of fact' manner, he just as easily states that the Macedonians themselves are barbaric Thracians who are also linguistically relate to the barbaric Epirote. Curtius Rufus is even more exlicit in his detailed trial of Philotas, once again making it clear that the native language of Macedonia was not mutually comprehensible with Greek;
"Philotas had ridiculed his countrymen, calling them Phrygians and Paphlagonians, this from a man who Macedonian born, is not ashamed to use an interpreter to listen to men who spoke his own language."
Philotas speaks;
"One charge made against me is that I disdain to communicate in my native language, that I have no respect for Macedonian customs. That native language of ours has long been rendered obselete through our dealings with other nations, and conquerers and conquered alike must learn a foreign tongue." 
This Curtius text is only as confusing as certain neo-Hellenes try to make it, reading objectively it demonstrates a definite existence of a native language other than Greek in Macedonia. The neo-Hellenic claim of Philotas learning Persian and forgetting his native Greek(as opposed to Macedonian) is an absurd claim, for how can the base-language of the future 'Koine' be "rendered obselete"?
Even Isocrates, in regards to the apparent argive descent of Phillip II, states;
"For they endeavored to win this honor by engendering factions, disorder, and bloodshed in their own cities; he, on the other hand, held entirely aloof from Hellenic territory, and set his heart upon occupying the throne of Macedon. For he knew full well that the Hellenes were not accustomed to submit to the rule of one man, while the other races were incapable of ordering their lives without the control of some such power."
107.
Macedonia, entirely aloof from Hellenic territory and their inhabitants who are of a non-kindred race to the Greeks. If Wikipedia is to live up to its claim of neutrality, then evidence of the type above must be considered in the equation. All statements I have made contain a source, they should be given due respect for they are precise and credible. The natives of Macedonia were a people related to the Thraco-Illyrians, cultural similarities with their Greek neighbours is a formality given the geographic location of the region. Hesiod states that Deukalion had two daughters who bore two children each with Zeus. Pandora bore Graecus and Latin, Thyia bore Magnes and Makedon. Mythology is not ethnology, for if it was the Italians are blood-brothers to the Greeks. It must be asked, if Graecus is not upset that his brother Latin speaks a language different to him, why does it bother him if his cousin Makedon speaks different also? 
"Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same speech" Livy, 31, 29. 
I showed above of the usage of more than one language in the Balkans, the native and the more popular(due to trade and admin) Greek, as today we have people here from various native & linguistic backgrounds however we are united by our dialogue in the English language so thus it is fair to say, in comparison to the quote from Livy, "we have Macedonians, Greeks, Romanians, Germans, men of the same speech". If the internet had existed back then, we would all be writing in Greek instead of English due to it's wide spread use, however surely that would not make us all Greek, as it does not make us all English now. 
"When you see the Greeks walking about amongst the Macedonians, do they not look to you like demi-gods amongst so many wild beasts? --- Alexander III, Plutarch, Alexander, 51."
Well Alexander, my Macedonian king, I don't know if they look like demi-gods compared to us Macedonians, but they certainly behave as such, even till today.Soldier of Macedon 03:01, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Go to Herodotus check book 5, and also read works of Strabo and Isocrates regarding Macedon. +MATIA  ☎ 09:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Soldier of Macedon, you are entering a battle ground here on Wikipedia, but you username suggests that you are prepared for it :). Note that this issue is not only about facts, it is also about people's national feelings, and even if you are 100% right (which I personally believe), people are going to question your stance. You are very welcome to edit here, but pay attention to the principle of NPOV.--Wiglaf 10:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Matia, I think this discussion would become much more pleasant if you tried to be more polite.--Wiglaf 11:16, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're the one being impolite here, Wiglaf.--Theathenae 11:25, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If so I apologize. I'll stay out of this dispute from now on, and stop any misguided attempts to moderate this discussion.--Wiglaf 11:29, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: And a correction: I've mentioned book 5 of Herodotus, but one could read his whole History, there are various refferences on Macedon. I still can't understand where I was impolite, I don't see WP as a battleground but I do find the word Soldier in the username provoking.+MATIA  ☎ 11:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Matia, it is always difficult to interprete old texts, and I only reacted against you bolding misinterprete. I have discussed the content of old chronicles too many times with users to believe that there is only one correct interpretation. As for the use of the word battle ground, it was not directed at you. I hope you have seen the edit history of this article :).--Wiglaf 12:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If only you'd exhibited a concomitant degree of indignation vis-à-vis User:Soldier of Macedon's much more serious transgressions...--Theathenae 12:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not perceive the name soldier as offensive. Note also that I asked Soldier of Macedon to respect the principle of NPOV.--Wiglaf 12:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: PS, in order to sort things out about the username, I have asked other admins to comment on the name.--Wiglaf 12:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: His militant username and tone, along with his use of bold text throughout, should have alerted you to his true intentions. A brand new user going by the username of User:Te1mak (a sockpuppet?) has just posted links to an internet forum where a Soldier of Macedon makes wild claims about a supposed connection between ancient Macedonian and the unrelated modern Slavic language spoken in what is now the FYROM. The vexed question of whether or not ancient Macedonian was a Greek language is an entirely separate issue, and is discussed at length in Ancient Macedonian language. What is certain, however, is that a link between it and the Slavic languages, other than their common membership of the huge and diverse Indo-European family of languages, has most definitely not been acknowledged by any serious scholar. Of course, this hasn't stopped Slav nationalists propagating their zany theories nonetheless.--Theathenae 12:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not familiar with this information (the Slavic connection). However, I hope that you all can discuss this issue and try to be polite to each other.--Wiglaf 12:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All will be fine as long as he keeps his baseless theories to the talk page and refrains from vandalising the article. :)--Theathenae 12:54, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What did I just ask you :)? Please, just try not to call other people's edits vandalism and their theories baseless. The discussion will be much easier that way.--Wiglaf 12:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand by my comment above.--Theathenae 13:04, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, but note that I will observe the discussions, if there will be any, for possible personal attacks from either side. Since you want to do the discussion the rough way.--Wiglaf 13:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Although there may be more than one interpretations on some ancient sources - I'm sure Wiglaf agrees that if we isolate one phrase and we do not see the whole source (for example everything by Herodotus on ancient Macedonia) our resulting interpretations may disagree with the original source. +MATIA  ☎ 13:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, the context is extremely important for any interpretation (however, I have also seen people twist even the context to fit their arguments).--Wiglaf 13:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's exactly what I meant when I used the word misinterpetation. +MATIA  ☎ 13:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I asked other admins about your name, and it is no problem.--Wiglaf 14:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

text: My previous comments were exactly upon your usage of the sources. +MATIA  ☎ 13:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHAT HISTORY SAYS 

message: In this subsection I'll clarify my previous objections. +MATIA  ☎ 17:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Matia.gr|MATIA]]: my objections 

message: Thank you Wiglaf, I respect your fairness. Matia, I have not taken a phrase out of the context of the paragpraph, I will ask again for you to be more specific before hurling accusations as such. With all the words written by Greeks here since my opening post, not one of them addressed what exactly is wrong with my texts and sources, and how is my opinion innacurate. I say enough of the bickering and lets get down to some scholarly discussion, a civil debate, if you want to prove me wrong then dispute my evidence with some of your own. I could care less if I am disliked by the majority so far, this is a discussion page on the ancient Macedonian language and our aim here is to discuss and attempt to determine certain facts in regards to it. Soldier of Macedon 14:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Throughout this debate, I've stuck to my guns and maintained that the ancient Macedonians did not speak a Greek dialect. I see no reason to drop my guns, though I do see a reason to raise my gun and aim it at some people in this room. Soldier of Macedon has located some important quotes that I knew of but hadn't located, such as the Curtius Rufus passages. But let's all be careful on how we incorporate ancient passages into these articles. The importance of the passages from Strattis (used as evidence for the Greek-dialect argument), for example, have been blown out of proportion by various Wikipedians. I haven't seen scholars giving much weight to Strattis the Athenian Comic. Such exaggerated use of ancient passages borders on original research and can even become original research; for encyclopedia purposes, it would be much better to know what the published scholars have written about a given passage. ---Alex 17:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ancient macedonian language 

message: If I remember correctly Philip II was the one who adopted Koine Greek, instead of his native XMK. Some scholars associate Ancient Macedonian Language with Aeolic Greek, as well as with Doric Greek.
One interesting study, are the two books of Ioannis Touratsogloy (Ιωάννης Τουρατσόγλου) "Epigrams in Macedonia" (επιγραφές στη Μακεδονία). They include linguistic analysis based on various ancient macedonian epigrams.
+MATIA  ☎ 17:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  epigrams and more info 

message: The above are off-topic, the "Soldier"'s folksy hearsay stuff especially so.  Chronographos 09:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your grasp of history (and linguistics) is rather rudimentary, which makes your esteemed opinion rather immaterial. Chronographos 15:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please limit discussion to linguistics 

message: The sample glossary for ancient Macedonian consists of a few words which are not present in the Hesychius words list that Dab provided some time back. The words which I cannot find a source for are amale, argella, baskioi, kanadoi and kombous. Also for "intestines" it is written above as gola rather than goda making it unclear which is correct, If anybody can help out here it would be appreciated. Soldier of Macedon 14:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Words of interest.......... 

message: May I also add in reference to Gora in Slavic.. it is related to Oros in Greek - it should be of no surprise that languages have common root words but in Ancient Macedonian the word was Orestai for the mountain people, not Goresti.  The point to make is that Linguistics is hypothetical and very fallible... in deed at best one can draw any etymological relations beteween any indo-european language and say that they are related.   Let us not forget that many Byzantine Greek words entered into Slavic and the language is inundated with Greek terms albeit changed to suit the etymology of Slavic (a lack of literacy records prior to the advent of Cyrillic) means that it is impossible to extrapolate what the pre-Slavic words were prior to that stage (yes yes it's all hypothetical people).  At least with ancient Macedonian, the words that do survive were the peculiar words as such (local idioms being influenced by Pelasgian or Thracian or the Phrygian languages - mind you these are anatolian languages and as such share a very very close kinship to Greek).  The remaining Macedonian language does survive, it is imbued in Koine Greek (after all Alexander commissioned the Koine Dialektos or Common Mode of Speech - he wouldn't commission something that is not COMMON to ALL the tribes of the Hellenic Kingdom he set out to create now would he and that includes Macedonian).  Shalom l'olam ve-shalom l'Yewanim, Sanser ha'Maqdon ha'Yewani ve-Melekh Yewanim.
:Shalom (and Salaam to the Arabs who read this). Slavic gora is not cognate to ancient Greek oros, or to Orestai. According to my references, oros and Orestai have not been traced to a PIE root. Slavic gora on the other hand goes back to PIE *gwer-, "mountain". PIE *gw- as a rule is represented by a b in ancient Greek, and a number of linguists think ancient Greek Boreas may derive from the same root as Slavic gora . A curious thing is, that as Macedonian gotan may show (if it is from PIE *gwou-), PIE *gw- may have been at times represented by [g] in Macedonian. So Greek Boreas could conceivably have been Goreas in Macedonian, but this is a wild possibility, and it is irrelevant as far as the Slavic words are concerned, because it would just be a phonological coincidence. Alexander 007 02:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Romanians are not involved in this, and I don't drag them into this. Ancient Macedonians were mostly Hellenized, not Romanized. Romanians arrived to the Macedonian area around 500--900 AD. I'm not a racist. Nor do I have any big problem about your people calling themselves Macedonians, though I had my qualms about it. I credit myself in part, by the way, with having Macedonian Slavs moved to Macedonians (ethnic group), and I have links that show I greatly influenced this, since an administrator moved the page within 10 minutes of my "ultimatum". I just cannot seriously consider the idea of ancient Macedonian being close to Slavic in any notable degree. It's about linguistics, not genetics. Genetically, I'm probably as much a Slav as you are. As for names, I cannot change my name, though I can pull nice fantasy Latin names out of Latin dictionaries, then get tired of them. Alexander 007 03:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Let it be noted Soldier wrote "all these cognates", but he has not cared to reorganize a list of them, so actual cognates can be evaluated according to linguistic references. Alexander 007 03:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Linguistics