Talk:Kinship terminology

message: I removed the section on English kinship terminology for three reasons.
# it does not exist.  scholars who write on kinship terminologies call this eskimo kinsip terminology
#there is a link to an article on eskimo kinship terminology that goes into the details.  if we have all the deatisl in this article, we would need all the details on Sudanese, Hawaiian, Croa, Omaha, and Iroqois terminologies too and the article would be too long.  linked articles on the specifics make sense.
#the material I deleted is also in the Family article which goes into greater detail on "the family" in Weastern societies.  I think people who want to learn about the family structure of western societies are more likely to go to the family article than the kinship terminology article.  Anyway, it is silly to have the same content repeated in different articles.Slrubenstein   |  Talk 12:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I didn't see your comment before, but it was added in the middle of a disorganized talk section.  English-language kinship terminology is a quite standard "Eskimo" system.  Subtle details about cousin terminology are mainly of interest to genealogists and inheritance lawyers (most ordinary people are quite vague about them, so it would be hard to say that they're part of basic English kinship terminology). AnonMoos (talk) 20:21, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: old talk

message: There needs to be a section on English kinship terminology, because the lack of one leaves a gaping hole in the article, since it discusses other kinship terminology in English and using English terms. And people looking for information English kinship terminology will be directed here, though they may find some information in the Cousin article.
SteveH (talk) 03:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I didn't see your comment before, but it was added in the middle of a disorganized talk section.  English-language kinship terminology is a quite standard "Eskimo" system.  Subtle details about cousin terminology are mainly of interest to genealogists and inheritance lawyers (most ordinary people are quite vague about them, so it would be hard to say that they're part of basic English kinship terminology). AnonMoos (talk) 20:21, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: 2013

message: I removed this from the article ...
*Polish Polish genealogy use wider set of single words to more precisely describe familiar relationship. The uncle may be stryj father brother or wój mother brother. Aunt is ether stryjenka, wójenka or ciocia. The cousin are bracia (brothers) srtyjeczni, wójeczni or cioteczni. Bracia stryjeczni are also call bratanki while bracia cioteczni siostrzńce. 
:Term wójenka stryjeczna is the (grand-)/father brother sister, this and all other terms are commonly used today when talking about or referring to family member. The system may be extended back with prefix grand - pra several generations back. Fuzzy maternal side ancestry is called pociot/y. Prefix pra may be used several times, for older relation is applied generic term seven waters after kisiel with some exception when bratanki are applied to Hungarian nation. The Polish Hungarian relationship has been recently proved by molecular genetics. The R1a haplogrup pointing to common biological father few millennia ago. Consult also Russian language family word племянник or племянница the plemie in Polish mean tribe while polish word for 'family' -rodzina is very similar to Rusian ‘‘rodina’’ which mean nation. The age distinguishing is created by suffixes. In old polish custom kids up to 7 years stay with mother, after postrzyżyny, go to father jurisdiction and get also new personal binominal single name. For mother father have gradual formal or friendly names and now 3 forms to refer to and one dual extinct. Even animals have different depending on sex names e.g. wolf: all walk, or personified wilcy or wilkowie, she wadera, he basior. It could be extended to all traditionally domesticated (extended family) animals e.g.: horse all konie, he ogier, she klacz, it zrebie. They ales have separate names for birth process. The animas even getting Christmas wishes (quite pagan by some) with specially prepared for them read oplatek. There are separate names for and for parents in love son/daughter in love, brothers in love. Parents and n-th ancestors have also general term Ojce. To word Ojce are related words Ojcowizna private estates or Ojczyzna estate of all. It should be noted that polish is not agglutinative language and the words are single words.
...because this is not one of the six systems laid out by Morgan.  "Crow" kinship does not refer to the kindship of the Crow but to a system found widely around the world in different specific forms.  This article is not the place to go into detail on every language.  Besides, the above seems to violate NOR and NPOV. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 11:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  polish kinship 

message: A number of terms redirect to this page but are not discussed here. For example, I came here via "Avunculocal" which is not mentioned at all in this article. Should the redirects be made into their own articles, or can someone flesh out the information here? 72.196.104.129 22:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This point deserves reiteration, "Ambilocal" also redirects to this page where it isn't described at all. ialsoagree (talk) 15:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Some of those redirects are left over from the early days of Wikipedia when there were a lot fewer articles.  "Avunculocal" was fixed almost three years ago.  Fixed "Neolocal" just now... AnonMoos (talk) 11:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect 

message: From Eskimo kinship: "Morgan's system of classification is considered obsolete in current mainstream anthropology."
What then is the modern view? 149.159.112.89 22:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of the specific details of Morgan's researches are obsolete, and the terms "descriptive" and "classificatory" have been subjected to severe criticism, but the basic six-fold classification is still found practically useful. AnonMoos (talk) 21:06, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Now incorporated into the article. AnonMoos (talk) 21:06, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

text: P.S. For 1st-ascending generation kinship terms, there's actually a four-fold distinction between "Generational" (which naturally goes together with "Hawaiian" terms on the sibling-cousin generation), "Lineal" (which naturally goes together with "Eskimo" terms on the sibling-cousin generation), "Bifurcate collateral" (which naturally goes together with "Sudanese" terms on the sibling-cousin generation), and "Bifurcate merging" (which naturally goes together with "Iroquois" or "Crow" or "Omaha" terms on the sibling-cousin generation).  However, some languages show discrepancies between sibling-cousin generation terminology and parents'-generation terminology, in which case the sibling-cousin generation terminology is usually considered decisive in classifying the language... AnonMoos (talk) 21:16, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Morgan's classification 

message: The definitions are a little unclear; as seen in common mid-20th-century use, the terms were really most clearly defined on the sibling-cousin generation:
;Hawaiian kinship: Siblings and cousins not distinguished (the same terms are used for both types of relatives).
;Eskimo kinship: Siblings are distinguished from cousins, while all types of cousins are grouped together.
;Iroquois kinship: Siblings are grouped together with parallel cousins, while separate terms are used for cross-cousins.
;Sudanese kinship: Siblings are distinguished from cousins and different terms are used each type of cousin (i.e. father's brother's children, father's sister's children, mother's sister's children and mother's brother's children).
;Crow kinship: Iroquois kinship, with the addition that a number of relatives belonging to one's father's matrilineage are grouped together, ignoring generational differences, so that the same term is used for both one's father's sister and one's father's sister's daughter, etc.
;Omaha kinship: Iroquois, with the addition that a number of relatives belonging to one's mother's patrilineage are grouped together, ignoring generational differences, so that the same term is used for both one's mother's brother and one's mother's brother's son, etc. -- 22:11, 6 February 2009‎ AnonMoos (talk)
::Now incorporated into the article. AnonMoos (talk) 21:06, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. For 1st-ascending generation kinship terms, there's actually a four-fold distinction between "Generational" (which naturally goes together with "Hawaiian" terms on the sibling-cousin generation), "Lineal" (which naturally goes together with "Eskimo" terms on the sibling-cousin generation), "Bifurcate collateral" (which naturally goes together with "Sudanese" terms on the sibling-cousin generation), and "Bifurcate merging" (which naturally goes together with "Iroquois" or "Crow" or "Omaha" terms on the sibling-cousin generation).  However, some languages show discrepancies between sibling-cousin generation terminology and parents'-generation terminology, in which case the sibling-cousin generation terminology is usually considered decisive in classifying the language... AnonMoos (talk) 21:16, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Definitions of the six types

message: The Dravidian notions of kinship are built into the language.It is difficult to understand 
this kinship without a knowledge of the actual terms employed.
amma, appa    - mother, father
akka, anna      - elder sister, elder brother
thangai, thambi  - younger sister, younger brother
pattan, patti    - grandpa, grandma
periyamma  - mother's elder sister,  or father's elder brother's wife
periyappa    -  father's elder brother,  or  mother's elder sister's nusband
chiththappa   - father's younger brother, or  mother's younger sister's husband
chiththi         - mother's younger sister, or  father's younger brother's wife
[Note: Children of periappa /periamma, and  chiththi /chiththappa are NOT cousins but
brothers and sisters "of the first remove ('onnu vittadu')." Marriage between them is 
strictly forbidden and considered incestuous. Only "cross" cousins are considered 
cousins.]
mama     -  mother's brother, or  father's sister's husband
aththai    -  father's sister, or  mother's brother's wife   
aththan     -   son of aththai and mama,  also general term for husband
[Note: The children of one's father's sisters (aththai) and mother's brothers (mama)  (or 
"cross" cousins) are considered potential mates or "muraippasangal." "Murai" is the
right to claim to a  cross cousin. Marriage between such cousins is the norm. Such 
cousins are often "meant" for one another from birth.]
marumagan -  for a man, his sister's son (as his brother's son is his son);for a woman, her brother's son (her sister's son being her son);also, general term for son-in-law
marumagal - for a man, his sister's daughter (as his brother's daughter is his daughter);for a woman, her brother's daughter (her sister's daughter being her daughter);also,  general term for daughter-in-law 
Some Tamil communities also practise  uncle-niece marriages  where the maternal 
uncle (mother's younger brother) may marry his niece (his elder sister's daughter). 
Hence, the term "muraimaman" for one's mother's younger brother.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.84 (talk) 06:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You miss the point.  "Dravidian kinship terminology" does not refer to Tamil practices.  It refers to a system that is actually found all over the world.  many Amazonian societies use Dravidian kinship terminology, in their own language of course (and they have different marriage practices than the Tamil do). Slrubenstein   |  Talk 22:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Note on Dravidian (Tamil) Kinship Terms

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kinship terminology. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091227204458/http://anthro.palomar.edu/kinship/kinship_5.htm to http://anthro.palomar.edu/kinship/kinship_5.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In introducing Morgan's classification the article reads:
For example, most kinship terminologies distinguish between sexes (the difference between a brother and a sister) and between generations (the difference between a child and a parent). 
Ergo, the six-fold classification fails to account for kinship terminologies, such as those of Malay (and many other Malaysian and Indonesian societies), that in many contexts don't distinguish gender.  How does anthropology describe or classify such a scheme?  
I'll detail one example that I know quite well.  In Malay, regardless of gender, one calls (i.e. describes and addresses):
* one's child (offspring): anak
* one's grandchild: cucu
* one's great-grandchild: cicit
* one's grandparent: nenek
* one's great-grandparent: moyang
(However, although one describes one's first cousin (all four types) as anak sepupu, one addresses him or her as a sibling - see below).
Other principles are dominant.  For example, as in the Filipino terminology, relative age is important - in Malay, one distinguishes older sibling (kakak) from younger sibling (adik).  Also, even strangers are classificatory kin: to address a much older male in Malay, one addresses him as pak cik (for a female, mak cik) which effectively calls him "uncle" (and her "aunt").  Gender sometimes figures in kin terms, but mostly attributively e.g. anak lelaki is only used to describe (but not to address) one's son, when the distinction is relevant.  The only obligatory recognition of gender is in terms for mother, father, aunt, uncle; and for some speakers (but not all), grandfather (datuk) is distinct from grandmother (nenek).
So which of Morgan's six kinship terminologies does this fall under - if any?  yoyo (talk) 15:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yahya Abdal-Aziz -- the matter of gender distinctions is actually relatively trivial.  Every language in the world can distinguish between male relatives and female relatives if necessary, with the use of added affixes or qualifying words (just as English can distinguish between "male cousin" and "female cousin").  Where languages differ is in how many kinship terms have an obligatory gender distinction.  Just about every language in the world with a lineal, bifurcate collateral, or bifurcate merging kinship terminology system in the first ascending generation encodes obligatory gender in the words used for "father" and "mother" (only a few languages with a generational kinship terminology system in the first ascending generation use the same basic word for both father or mother).  The statement in the article should not be taken as implying that all terms in all languages are include a gender specification. AnonMoos (talk) 21:43, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malay and Indonesian kinship terms 

message: The article mentions self-reciprocal terms (two relatives calling one another "-ch’iné"), but other reciprocal terms (e.g. grandfather-granddaughter) are not mentioned. I have read that it is a general rule that kinship terms are reciprocal except for gender (i.e. anyone who calls a person "grandfather" is their grandson or granddaughter). If this is the case, could it be mentioned, please? I found the existing "Identification of alternating generations" section confusing, and would appreciate a clarification of what "alternating generations" and "(0, ±2, ±4, etc.)" mean. HLHJ (talk) 17:44, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: If the ego's generation is 0, ego's parents' generation is +1, ego's grandparents' generation is +2, ego's children's generation is -1, and ego's grandchildren's generation is -2, then alternating generations would group even numbers together (-2, 0, +2), and also group odd numbers together (-1, +1). AnonMoos (talk) 14:47, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternating generations? reciprocal terms? 

message: I happened to notice that the image here gives what I think is somewhat inaccurate information about Omaha cross-cousin terminology. (At least, it doesn't agree with my old anthropology textbook.) I believe that the father's sister's children are called "son" and "daughter" if Ego is female and "niece" and "nephew" if Ego is male. (This preserves reciprocity of terms.) If true, this would also apply to the Crow system. I'm no expert, so I may be wrong; it's also possible that the image was intentionally simplified and the Omaha page is more detailed. However, this image and variations on it are at the tops of Google search pages because of Wikipedia, so someone please look into this! --148.85.243.72 (talk) 19:41, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If you mean :File:Kinship Systems vertical.svg, there's a note on that image description page: "Note that in some versions of the Crow and Omaha systems, the relatives shown as "cousin" in the Crow and Omaha boxes of the chart are actually referred to as either "son/daughter" or "nephew/niece" (different terms are used by male ego vs. female ego)."  Not all variations in all systems can be captured by a broad summary chart like this... -- AnonMoos (talk) 12:23, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Image incorrect?

message: Do Kazakhs have sudanese system? Kaiyr (talk) 18:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What are the terms? AnonMoos (talk) 22:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kazakhs