Talk:Giacomo Puccini

message: I recently found a quote attributed to Puccini : "Art is a kind of illness". I am curious as to what might have prompted such a statement?
::Puccini suffered from a kind of frenetic creative impulse. Similiar to a drug adict, long before the finishing of an opera he suffered a strong anxsiousness about what to do next, as if without creating, he was not existing.--FaZ72 22:43, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Art an illness quote

message: At the bottom of the article it states "As many know, Giacomo is believed to have been reborn in Concord, MA as Alexander Nordeen. Alexander proves this through his excellent ramshacking qualities and ability to lead. He is a great prospect." I can only presume this is some tosser goofing around.
:Why, yes, yes it was. Looks like it's been removed now; you can also see how to do this yourself. Cheers, Mindspillage (spill yours?) 12:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism? 

message: It is wikipedia policy to name things by the name which they are most commonly named. Someone has (correctly) insisted that the "Messa di Gloria" is (technically) named "Messa", but while this is technically correct, everyone in the music biz knows it as "Messa di Gloria". It might be someone's "fault", but tough titties. That's what's it's known as, by 99.99% of musicians, and pedantically insisting that it's *NOT* known as such is against wikipedia policy. Revolver 02:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: . If popular CDs, programme notes, and academic works refer to it as "di Gloria", I think that makes it the most popular name. Sorry, I know it's "wrong". Revolver 02:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I gave a detailed rational, citing wikipedia policy, and you revert without any comment. I'm taking to RfC. Ridiculous. Revolver 03:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Fine, my point is, if (and most likely when, I could do it in 2 seconds), an actual article is made on the Messa di Gloria, then such a decision on the actual title will have to be made. Contrary to your opinion, giving the most common name first and making it VERY clear that the name is a historical accident which is technically incorrect is not "giving wrong information". And Wikipedia policy is clear that the title of such a future article should be Messa di Gloria, not Messa. It's plain English. By your reasoning, it would be incorrect to name the article on dogs "dog" instead of "Canis lupus familiaris", because the latter is the 100% precise name. Unless you deny that "di Gloria" is the most commonly used name? And you can support this? Revolver 03:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I see you're Italian. Maybe this is a language thing, and maybe Messa di Gloria is not common in Italian. If that's the case, your POV is easier to understand. But still, realise this is English, not Italian wikipedia. Revolver 03:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: See Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28common_names%29#Examples. Revolver 03:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: A "Dog" is indeed a "Canis lupus familiaris", but a "Messa di gloria" is a particolar type of "Messa", not all the "messe" are "di gloria", like not all the "messe" are "di requiem". Calling "Messa di Gloria" Puccini's "Messa" is like calling "poodle" a dog of a different "race". --Al pereira 03:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The wrong title comes just from Italy. --Al pereira 03:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what you're trying to say. The "wrong title" is common in the US, so it doesn't come "just from Italy". Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this disagreement. Revolver 04:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "just" = "only", is the meaning I read above. Revolver 04:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia policy 

message: The section of this article labelled 'style' troubles me a little. While I don't think orchestration per se can ever be said to 'characterize' anything, the article doesn't currently even suggest how 'the orchestra at the end of Madama Butterfly reflects the tragedy of Cio-Cio-San's love'. And as for 'one can feel the sun rising'... I think it's pretty clear that any such feeling is the result of the context, and nothing to do with some innate expressive quality in P.'s 'style'. I'm going to make some changes to try and make this a little more scientific. Ajcounter 17:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I don't know where to start. It seems to me that the entire first paragraph of this section needs to be deleted. Has P.'s style been avoided by musicologists? Is this because of its complexity? Who precisely considers him to be one of the greatest orchestrators in opera? What is 'heavily integrated' orchestration? There's basically not a single comment here which is encyclopedic... However, deleting that much material is a massive edit which I'm not prepared to make without some discussion. Anyone any suggestions for a middle course? Ajcounter 17:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank goodness someone's actually taking notice of this page.  I suggest just a rewrite of the section (which didn't exist until a few months ago).  Of course, some of the things mentioned in the current form (Ex. Wagnerian influence in orchestration, liefmotifs, melodic style, etc.)  should be retained. Doublea 04:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just edited the "Style" section; it's not been gutted, but I've cut quite a lot. I've done this more as a musician than a Puccini-fan, so if anyone wants to check the history and progressively reintegrate more cogent versions of the specific refs to the works which I've removed due to their un-scientific character, please feel free! Ajcounter 22:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subjective details 

message: Although some of the referenced sources hint at this, I think this dramatic claim needs a specific citation and a detailed explanation. Is it true? What does it mean? Why did it happen? -- Meyer 09:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any piece of classical music?  Copland's Rodeo immediately comes to mind.  Heck, the American Beef Board used "Hoe-Down" in their ads for years.  In much the same way The William Tell Overture is linked to the Lone Ranger, you hum two bars of that to the average American and they'll say "Beef, it's what's for dinner.". Granted, it's based on older folk music, but I think more people these days know the Copland composition over the source material. "Fanfare for the Common Man" is also pretty widely known.  Both of these works are nearly two decades newer than Turandot.  RandyKaelber (talk) 08:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The first pages of the Ashcroft/Powers book  (Puccini's Turandot:The End of the Great Tradition) (see main article references), begin by quoting the final page of The Golden Century of Italian Opera by William Weaver as saying ' The opera ends here.. Toscanini might have been speaking not just of P's last work but of Italian opera in general'. etc. etc (They then go on to explain & qualify that opinion, but the damage is done :-))
Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 20:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not challenging the opera assertion above or in the main article, just the "any classical piece" assertion of the the comment above. I'm probably more aware of classical music than the typical American, but I'm by no means a specialist, and I'm far more familiar with either of those Copland pieces than I am of "Nessum Dorma", which I sometimes don't even recognize for a while upon first hearing it.  In fairness, I don't care for most opera, so I may be biased. ;-) RandyKaelber (talk) 19:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''His death marked the end of opera as a popular art form'' 

message: I believe this article needs a serious re-write, less for substance than for style and usage. There are many poorly-constructed sentences and typos, and the feel is that of an article translated from Italian (I imagine) into English. When I can I will tidy it up but feel free to beat me to it! --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 14:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right; it certainly needs work. I'll work on it too. Vivaverdi 16:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we are five years later — How does it look to you now? Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 11:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  State of the article 

message: I think it might be interesting to add a section on the use of Puccini's music in movies. One list can be found at this adress. 
Let's Go To Prison (2006) by Bob Odenkirk
- Turandot: Nessun dorma
Rocky Balboa (2006) by Sylvester Stallone
- Gianni schicchi: O mio babbino caro
Chasing Liberty (2004) by Andy Cadiff
- Turandot: Nessun dorma
Under the Tuscan Sun (2003)
- Madama Butterfly: Humming Chorus
The life of David Gale (2003) by Alan Parker
- Turandot: Tu che di gel sei centa
Bend It Like Beckham (2003)
- Music ("Nessun Dorma")
40 Days and 40 Nights (2002)
- Tosca: Recondita Armonia
Death to Smoochy (2002)
- Tosca: Vissi D'Arte"
Very Annie Mary (2002)
- Turandot: Nessun Dorma
- Gianni Schicchi: O mio babbino caro
The Kid Stays in the Picture (2002)
- Tosca: Vissi d'arte
Captain Corelli's Mandolin (2001)
- Gianni Schicchi: O mio Babbino Caro
Pavilion of Women (2001)
- Madama Butterfly: Un Bel Di Vedremo
Recess: School's Out (2001)
- Turandot: Nessun Dorma
etc... etc...
For the moment I am going to add it as an external link.
:::I think it's also interesting to note his appearance in the third chapter of the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles DVD release (The Perils of Cupid - Florence, May 1908) with Georges Corraface playing the part (very picture like if I may say so myself) or as they were released on television in the second season episode 23. More information here: www.tv.com Athinsz (talk) 18:45, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Puccini in movies

message: By the way, no-one's picked up the "liguarian" sea?
122.106.160.25 (talk) 23:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed -- thanks. Antandrus  (talk) 23:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: I added a couple of sentences about Puccini's affair with Blanke Lendvai and Baroness von Stangel; in any discussion of his love-life, it seemed to me that affairs lasting 5 years or longer were worthy of comment.Ammilne (talk) 16:55, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  More affairs added 

message: The discussion of whether or not Puccini supported fascism is in urgent need of authoritative citations for claims like that "it has been proven that" Puccini supported fascism before the 1919 elections.  I have seen material from this wikipedia article used wholesale in places like educational material distributed by the San Francisco Opera, including this statement about fascism; I haven't found anything like an authoritative reference online.  Let's not propagate undocumented allegations.  Please, if someone has a good bio of Puccini, or other scholarly source, and can document this, do so.  If this isn't done soon, say within a month, I think the unsupported statements in this section should be removed.  MorphismOfDoom (talk) 22:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That Puccini was an early supporter of Fascism -- and I mean early, i.e. before its full awfulness was apparent -- is pretty well established.  "It has been proven that" is rather bald; I'd take it out.  "There is evidence that ..." may be better.  Plenty of documentation for this -- here's just one of many from Google Books:  .  Michael Steen, in The Lives and Times of the Great Composers, goes so far as to say Puccini joined the Party; I'm not sure this is exactly true.  Antandrus  (talk) 01:58, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done.--Smerus (talk) 09:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support for fascism urgently needs sources, or should be dropped 

message: Dear fellow editors:  
User Smerus removed a certain amount of material that I added to this article recently, having to do with Turandot. [I refer to this edit:  07:59, 26 August 2012‎ Smerus (talk | contribs)‎ . . (28,099 bytes) (-1,023)‎ . . (→‎Later works: remove detail inappropriate to bio article - belongs in article on the opera) (undo)]  I'd like to get some input/comment on this.  I recognize the excellent work of Smerus on this article -- he has done a lot.  I must thank him for recognizing that in my citation of major arias in Turandot I managed to omit Nessun Dorma (!), for example.  
Here is my question arising from what I added, and what Smerus removed.....
In general, this article seems to me to be lacking in description of the kind of artist Puccini was.  While it is important to get the usual biographical details of major life events into a bio article, I think for an artist an article also needs to give some idea of the sort of *artist* the person was.  To do this, I think there has to be some discussion of the content, subject, and style of the artist's works.  I fully agree with the goal Smerus seems to have been pursuing in his edit: avoidance of a situation where the bio article recapitulates everything in each article about each of Puccini's works.  However, I think what I added didn't go anywhere near the point of being excessive or inappropriate for a bio article.  I don't want to simply undo the edit -- because, among other things, that can be somewhat rude.  Also, while I had something definitely in mind when I added the info, it may be there are better ways to accomplish what I was trying to do, and one of the editors of this page may be able to do better.  
I am thinking in terms of what this article should look like a year or so and many edits from now.  As it stands, the article is cited for needing improvement for lack of citations (something I also tried to remedy to some extent).  But I think it is also clear that in terms of content, the article does not do justice to Puccini's stature in the world of opera.  So, in my opinion, those taking an interest in this page should be working to expand the article to give a fuller picture of the man and artist.  
---> All of my opinions, by the way, are offered for comment and discussion, not because I think my opinions are necessarily correct and must prevail.  
On thing that the article presently lacks, in my opinion, is information about the kind of composer and dramatist Puccini was.  The article as it stands provides little insight into the where Puccini fits in the operatic tradition, what his musical style was like, and how he approached combining music with drama.  Without providing such information, the article omits the most important things about Puccini as an operatic composer.  In my opinion, a longer term goal for this article should be that it will provide such information, giving a complete portrait of the artist as well as the man (complete by encyclopedic standards, I mean), while at the same time not becoming bloated with material that properly should remain in separate articles about individual works.  
The reason I am asking for comment is because I would like to know if others who are working on this page agree with my general viewpoint of where the page should go from here, and, if so, because I would like to solicit opinions as to what the best way is to make it happen.  It could be that the material I put in just wasn't that useful or interesting -- this is part of the editing process.  But before I do much more work on this page, I'd like to have a sense as to whether my overall view of what should be part of this article is within or without the mainstream.  
In my opinion, this article should include some reference to the fact that Puccini, throughout his career, was concerned with understanding and incorporating advances in musical technique being made by other composers like Richard Strauss and Debussy, and some reference to how these concerns manifested themselves in Puccini's work (for example, in the more advanced harmonics of La Fanciulla del West and Turandot).  I think a goal of those taking an interest in this page should include giving some inkling of other aspects of Puccini's musical style -- his frequent use of 'authentic' melodies related to his libretto -- such as the use of the Jasmine Flower melody in Turandot, the melody that is sometimes identified as Old Dog Trey in Fanciulla (I've seen it also cited as being a native american melody), the Star Spangled Banner in Butterfly, even perhaps his use of authentically-pitched church bells in act III of Tosca.  The article should mention that much of his work is through-composed, sometimes making use of the 'arioso' style, etc., but that all works contain at least one stand-alone 'aria.'   A comparison could be made to the earlier Italian tradition of operas made of sequences of musical numbers (e.g., early to mid-career Verdi), and composition using leitmotivs (Wagner and progeny).  The article should inform readers of the immense trouble Puccini took in finding and perfecting his libretti.  The article should also provide some insight into the word 'verismo' as it is applied to Puccini.  It should provide some insight into where he fits into the operatic tradition (i.e., Italian school, but influenced by Wagner and Strauss), and specifically within the Italian operatic tradition (i.e., inheritor of the mantle of Verdi, 'verismo' composer, and the only Italian composer after Verdi to have more than one opera in the standard repertory).  
All of this should be done in an 'encyclopedic' mode, of course -- this material would be appropriate not because these are great insights into the work of Puccini, but because these ideas are part of a stable, well-documented critical consensus about Puccini.  
Which brings me to my edit, and its removal by Smerus.  In my opinion, to do what I have described above, and give an idea of what kind of artist Puccini was, this bio article needs to include more discussion of his work.  To some degree, this will require discussion of individual works, rather than mere generalities. What I added, and what was removed, was some detail about one of Puccini's works (Turandot) that was meant to give an idea of what it was Puccini is thought to have been trying to accomplish with that work.  His stated aim was to create a fantasy/fairy tale about transcendent love, merging (as Gozzi did before him) exoticism of Asia with traditional Italian commedia dell'arte.  He was also continuing his efforts to incorporate advances in music theory into the italian opera tradition.  Knowing this about the work helps one understand this final phase of Puccini's life as an artist.  
Last bit before I conclude this long post.  Here's an example of where I think the dividing line should be between what goes in the bio article versus what goes in the articles about individual works.  Regarding Tosca, I think *this* article should note that in Tosca Puccini used melodic motifs to identify certain characters and emotions, and that these have been compared to Wagner's use of leitmotivs, with one of the differences between them being that Puccini's motifs remain essentially unchanged throughout the opera, whereas Wagner's leitmotivs are constantly being modified.  If someone can find a good source, this could tie into the discussion of Puccini's place in the larger operatic tradition: Italian composers, including the giant Verdi, were faced with factions demanding that they adopt or reject Wagnerian compositional ideas.  What belongs in the article about Tosca itself (and not in the bio article) is any further discussion about the motifs, such as Puccini's un-Wagnerian use  of Cavarodossi's theme E lucevan le stelle to dramatize Tosca's leap, the use of the whole-tone scale in certain motifs (e.g., the main motif belonging to Scarpia), etc.  [Most of which is in the the Tosca article as it stands].  
And let me close with a shout-out to Smerus for his fine work on the page so far.
Comments? David.thompson.esq (talk) 02:32, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Query about information on individual works in this bio

message: We seem to have nothing, either here or at La bohème, about the rivalry between Puccini and Leoncavallo over the competing versions of this opera and the bitter personal rift it caused between them when Puccini discovered Leoncavallo had already started writing his version.  --  Jack of Oz [Talk] 09:42, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: The ''La bohème'' rift

message: This article was last rated in 2006, and has come a long way since.  Should the article be submitted for re-evaluation?  Do we want t try to get it up to Good Article status?  Right now, I would guess we're at 'pretty good'. I'm not too familiar with the rating process, or whether the ratings have utility that makes them a worthy focus of effort. David.thompson.esq (talk) 03:53, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment re Article rating

message: Substituted at 16:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Hello! This is to let editors know that :File:Giacomo Puccini (1924) - Archivio Storico Ricordi FOTO003293 - Restoration.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for December 22, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-12-22. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page.  If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! --Ahecht (TALKPAGE) 22:15, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured picture scheduled for POTD 

message: Hi, I noticed ref 2 is slightly odd. Page numbers are missed. I looks as though it need expanded to individual references.  Here is the book source Giacomo Puccini.  scope_creepTalk 21:47, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Ref 2 needs addressed

message: Coming to this article and seeing the infobox warning: I hope it's not too short a time to check if the view of 2007 still holds, that an infobox would not add value. Perhaps because their functionality has improved since then, I think there's now room to use one as an effective summary of a lot of key details, particularly for (per MOS:LEAD) those who will only read the article very briefly. I note that the current portrait, name and signature is doing a lot of the job of an infobox anyway, and now looks a little odd as they've become increasingly standard in high-quality biographical articles. I'd propose something like this: grateful for any thoughts. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 17:45, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox: an old wound...