Talk:Autonomous building

message: I posted a big red flag in the hopes someone will pickup on this quick.  While I find the artical quite good there are many serious errors.  Suggesting N. Dakota is in permafrost is just one example.
Another is the idea that the average western citizen consumes only about 1000 kwh per year.  At 5 cents that is $50 bux and while I know I am certainly not your average wikipedian I consume about 2x that per month.  But then I run several servers which offset the space heat for my office.
This is a good artical but it needs some real engineering!  Then it will be a great artical.
:I found a reference for ground temperatures, and corrected them.  I couldn't find the part of the article that gave a figure of 1000 kwh, that is an economical monthly usage, and quite possible in a house that doesn't use air-conditioning and has an economical refrigerator. 65.171.255.181 16:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Errors

message: This is an advocacy article.  I seriously doubt that any careful analysis would show that it is cheaper for everyone to provide their own sewage service, water, etc.  I have a cabin in the woods and it is delightful, but it is not more efficient than my suburban home.  Ortolan88 15:23 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)
:I'm sure it depends. If everything is lo-tech, you have reed systems to treat waste, a nearby spring or minimally treated rainwater etc. it probably is more efficient. If you have high-tech treatment of water and sewage I expect that the energy needed to make these systems fas outways the saving. Individual systems in densely populated urban areas can't make sense. -- Chris Q 15:29 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)
Or, to put it another way, cities are the most efficient way of living for large numbers of people.  I see someone toned down the dubious statement, btw.  Thanks.  Ortolan88
===Disaggree===
I respectfully disagree about efficiencies, and I encourage you to run the numbers with real prices in your area.  Most utilities have prices almost exactly 5% below the amortized price of the mass-produced rural systems that provide private utility service (e.g., electricity will be just below the fuel costs and amortization of a natural gas generator).  Many people pay for central utility networks from after-tax income, so the home-based utilities are 15-45% more efficient just because they create untaxed value. (I know that utilities are often price-controlled monopolies.  I think it's interesting that the prices are just low enough to suppress obvious competition.)
Unless the area has local nuclear or hydroelectric power, new construction could probably afford to make its own heat and light.  In the coldest areas of the U.S. passive solar heat costs only 15% more than normal construction.  In milder areas, it costs nothing.  It usually commands a 15-20% price premium.
In Southern California, new solar roofs already provide cheaper electricity than the utilities, because they keep the rain out, and the amortized untaxed marginal value of such electricity is cheaper than the power prices.  In most great plains areas, a 10-meter wind turbine on a hundred-foot tower will run an all-electric house, for about 10% of a new house's cost. 
Sewage and water are harder, not least because of local health regulations.  In my area, (water is horrendously expensive) they would  break even, or make a tiny profit.  However, they are more secure everywhere. Many areas have groundwater depletion and poisoning.  In all rural and most suburban areas buying land for swales instead of digging storm-drains is cheaper and more pleasant.
I also respectfully disagree with the "lo-tech" comment.  For example, a modern switching inverter is cheaper than a rotary inverter, and should last longer because it has no moving parts.  As it happens, high tech windmills, solar cells, water and composting toilets are less expensive, too. Solar heating is substantialy easier with high-tech windows, and advanced aerodynamic design of the ducting.
Personally, I think the big reasons why people don't do this are an unwillingness to pay the capital costs, and a belief that it's a hassle to keep the systems running.  Solar-electric roofs and passive solar heat have no moving parts, and are therefore nearly hassle-free.  Cisterns, greywater systems and septic tanks have pumps and require life-style changes.
User:Ray Van De Walker
===Sewers===
In a smaller detail, the article says that in rome the sewage system was the street. This is a bit funny even while it may have been correct at the intended time, wasn't Rome one of the first cities to have a real sewer system? --blades 23:15, May 6, 2004 (UTC)
:Indeed, ancient Rome had the Cloaca Maxima built in 532 BC, though they were preceded by the Indus civilization by some thousands of years.--albamuth 23:22, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: In a smaller detail, the article says that in rome the sewage system was the street. This is a bit funny even while it may have been correct at the intended time, wasn't Rome one of the first cities to have a real sewer system? --blades 23:15, May 6, 2004 (UTC)
:Indeed, ancient Rome had the Cloaca Maxima built in 532 BC, though they were preceded by the Indus civilization by some thousands of years.--albamuth 23:22, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Sewers

message: "Fabric water tanks can be purchased that fit the bed of a pick up truck."
:What does this (and several other sections) have to do with autonomous buildings? - Omegatron 03:15, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
::It frees one from dependence on (possibly nonexistent) infrastructure.  A fabric water tank is an affordable hack to access the nearest available water source.
:::I gotta add that using periodic resupply from an unknown source is no better than relying on an constant connection to infrastructure. Surely you're either AUTONOMOUS or you're NOT AUTONONMOUS.
::::In real life, autonomy depends on personal choices and a budget. Are you autonomous if you live in a cabin in the woods, gather your food, and chop your own wood? (Very much so, I think.)  But what if you sell forest products to buy party clothes (for the square-dance!), ammunition, nails, matches and an axe?  A job, and a gas heater for the fourth cloudy day is a similar trade-off, though not as robustly manly.  Ray Van De Walker 20:33, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  pick up truck 

message: Perhaps a more useful heading would be communication? - Birkett 01:09, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information 

message: These words were posted by User:66.18.218.43 in the Heating section, beneath the sentence Wind breaks reduce the amount of heat carried away from a building.
:Not vandalism:  The above paragraph is obviously wrong.  Since I do not have the data I'll post this big red flag in the hopes that someone who DOES have the data can make a correction.  If the ground temps in N. Dakota were in the freezing range as cited in the above paragraph then there would be permafrost in N. Dakota.  This would mean that cities like Fargo would not be able to bury their water pipes below the frost line because as the paragraph states the temperature "several feet _below the earth_" ...is below freezing.  Perhaps this is true is Fairbanks alaska but even there I doubt it.
Omphaloscope » talk 16:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a reference for ground temperatures, and fixed them. 65.171.255.181 17:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in the Heating section 

message: The water section mentions something called a well-foot, but doesn't explain what it is. I checked the water well article, and couldn't find it in there either (nor could I find a definition via Google). That needs to be updated so people who've never used a well know what it means. -Juansmith 20:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Well-foot"

message: I'm tempted to remove this or at least change the wording unless there's a good argument for keeping it as is: In 1854, Henry David Thoreau wrote Walden, a nonfictional account of his time in a self-built home designed for maximum independence from the neighboring town of Concord, MA, USA. It includes detailed descriptions of his home, garden, costs, time, and associated labor.
Clearly in Walden Thoreau is frugal and perhaps a bit interested in personal autonomy but his house wasn't exactly designed for it any differently than his neighbors' homes were. He had a wood stove, as did his neighbors in town; he went into the woods to cut his own fuel, as did his neighbors in town; and he used the outdoors as his bathroom, pretty much as his neighors in town did (except they put up a little room around the hole-in-the-ground for privacy(outhouse)).
Yes he had a garden but he exclusively grew beans in order to sell them. He specifically discusses what types of food he buys in town to nurish himself.
So yes, he built the house himself, he gardened, he didn't have utilities and he was a bit of a recluse. But his house was no more autonomous than any one elses house at the time, it was just smaller and far from town. If he had kept a balanced garden for nourishing himself or developed some kind of passive heating system or a clever indoor plumbing setup I'd agree his house was autonomous. But actually it wasn't autonomous, just small and otherwise run-of-the-mill. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Glippy00 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thoreau Doesn't Belong Here 

message: I tagged this article as unreferenced, as no sources are given. I found it well written and informative, and am surprised at how extensive it is without any sources cited. Unless the original author(s) return with sources, it would take a lot of research to verify and source everything in the existing article. -Agyle 01:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone just changed the sentence in the Financing section from "A passive-solar house usually commands a 15-20% price premium" to say "7-10% price premium." No citation before, no citation now. It illustrates the problem of having no references; anyone can claim anything. The whole section is based on unsourced numbers, so I'm deleting it. -Agyle 10:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I removed most of the unreferenced sections and statements in the article. It's been a month, and no citations were added. Hopefully the article can be rebuilt based on reliable sources. -Agyle 21:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added citations where requested, and removed the marker.  Hope that helps. The price premium on passive-solar houses is cited in "Natural Capitalism" by Hawken and the Lovins's Ray Van De Walker (talk) 12:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No references 

message: Please include the pictures found at the gallery at the off-the-grid article.
Thanks.
81.245.167.85 (talk) 19:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: I have only read small parts of the article but even so I want to sincerely congratulate all contributors for their hard work. I have no further words.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rickproser (talk • contribs) 01:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sincere Congratulations

message: It seems like the 'disadvantages' section is talking about the disadvantages of the pursuit of a fully autonomous lifestyle, not the disadvantages of a autonomous house.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.173.64 (talk) 23:58, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disadvantages 

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