Talk:Naliboki massacre

message: Maybe, Marcelus and others can enlist their objections to the new version of the section on Jewish perpetrators, as drafted by me? TrangaBellam (talk) 13:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We are discussing the section in two discussions above, you can join if you want, but don't ignore them and don't try push your own changes. Marcelus (talk) 13:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Specific objections, please. Almost 90% of my edits are copy-edits — shifting around sentences etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:53, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, you are ignoring @Gitz6666 revert. @Gitz6666 insist on keeping things on footnote (mention of Nowicki and Boradyn), we are still discussing it, you ignored that discussion. We also discussing proper chronological order of letter and IPN investigation etc. Really I insist on reading above discussion. Marcelus (talk) 14:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

text: I see people are interested in reactions to the new section. My biggest reaction is that if we are going to cover this, a title along the lines of "Unsubstantiated allegations of Jewish perpetrators" is the way to go.(partly reconsidered this below; "Jewish" may not be the right word to use here, but what do the allegations actually say?) I see "involvement" is used instead of "perpetrators" in one proposed version, which I think is also reasonable, and which does not suggest that all of the perpetrators were Jewish. (Does any source suggest that??)  The other thing is, I suggest the section be kept short as far as that is possible. Adoring nanny (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. What do you feel are the pros and cons of this version? TrangaBellam (talk) 18:53, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

text: @Adoring nanny. Sorry to partly disagree, but I think that current version of this section on the page is atrocious. I think this should never be framed as a dispute about "Jews"  because that is antisemitic. The involvement of Bielski partisans is a good question, but however described, it should not be framed as a dispute about "Jews". I would suggest to remove whole section about the alleged "Jewish perpetrators". My very best wishes (talk) 19:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, WHAT? It is the Polish Right who went about describing the event as an instance of Jewish savagery etc; we are simply documenting such ahistorical claims and discussing them. That does not make us antisemitic. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

text:  Are you saying that the sources covering antisemitism are doing so in an antisemitic manner?  Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:35, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

text:  I definitely agree that we should avoid covering this in a way that is antisemitic. This is leading me to partly reconsider my earlier comment about the title. I definitely like the fact that we say right up front that the allegations are unsubstantiated. Not sure exactly how we should describe the subjects of said unsubstantiated allegations; what do the allegations actually say? Adoring nanny (talk) 21:05, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Nowicki if you believe the quote found on the Internet (I did not have the book in hand) said: In less than 2 hours 128 innocent people were killed. Most of them, as eyewitnesses later stated, at the hands of Bielski's and "Pobieda" henchmen. Boradyn also spoke simply about Bielski partisans. However, Nasz Dziennik and similar outlets spoke directly about Jews and Jewish crime. Certainly, such allegations can still be found in the depths of the Internet. The IPN investigation was conducted in general to identify the perpetrators. (Contrary to what the text of the article now says) Marcelus (talk) 23:35, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

text: Stalin Brigade:
"Stalin's brigade included many Jews who ran from Germans to partisans"
https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/RG-50.407.0155_sum_en.pdf
"As part of the Stalin brigade, Marion Spiegel commanded a small Jewish unit, which included Fishkin and Slobodkin."
Heroism in the Forest: The Jewish Partisans of Belarus p.66
"Jewish refugees did not form their own resistance movement.In July 1943 many joined the Lenin detachment of the Stalin Brigade, which contained a “Jewish” unit led by David Mudrik." Nazi Empire-Building and the Holocaust in Ukraine United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.Wendy Lower
"A large number of Jewish youth were to be found in Stalin Brigade" Zionist movements during Shoah. Asher Cohen  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dle19getu (talk • contribs) 21:10, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  New version of section 

message: Before the release of Defiance, Gazeta Wyborcza ran an article with a scoop (?) on how the IPN investigation, whose results were yet to be disclosed, came to the conclusion that the Jewish partisans were to blame. The article was cited by other media. Was this a scoop gone wrong? TrangaBellam (talk) 19:39, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There was an article published by "Gazeta Wyborcza" on 15.11.1996: Jacek Hugo-Bader, A rewolucja to miała być przyjemność (And the revolution was supposed to be a pleasure); where there was information that Naliboki was a crime conducted by Jewish partisans. I don't know what was the main subject of the article, because it isn't available online. But Jacek Hugo-Bader definitely isn't right-wing. Marcelus (talk) 16:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gazeta Wyborcza 

message: * https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=277574
Much like Grabowski, discusses the blaming of a Jew partisan unit for the massacre among other things in context of antisemitism in Polish nat. discourse, growth of RW, etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Author creds. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:30, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  New source