Talk:Italians/Archive 1

message: You forget indo-european immigration: Romans (Latins and the most part of the italic people came to Italy from north or east. About Etruscan origin there are three possibility: indigenous, from east (today Turkey) and a third I cannot remember now. And they were not indo-european. 84.253.136.132 9 July 2005 02:16 (UTC)
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How come there are 62 million Italians in Italy if the latter's population is about 58 million people? Leslie Msg 19:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

message: "Because of the fact that Italians had to defeat and drive out these people in the past, there is a feeling of contempt toward them in modern Italian culture, which is not found in the more northern countries of Europe, which were isolated from Muslim invasion."
I am italian and I think this is bull**** - please correct me if wrong. Conflicts are probably due to the lack of jobs for immigrants and the choice for most of them to survive out of crime. Immigrants are probably a bit more integrated on the north because it is where italy is more developed; but even on the north they are less and less wellcome for the same reasons.
I agree, these steorotypes are very damaging and have no basis in fact.I read on a recent US survey that the most tolerant people in Europe towards muslim immigrants are 1st the Spaniards and 2nd the British. The Brits have never suffered any menace from the Muslim world whereas as Spain was part of the Islamic world for 8 centuries. I think that these "people"pages are  very damaging as they attract all kinds of recycled beliefs which are generally held by foreigners (e.g. French people are dirty,  Germans racist etc...)  --83.42.145.199 14:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immigration 

message: # No Italians in UK?
# I Propose "Language: Italian and several local dialects." Not sure if we want to list all the dialects in Italy, and certainly listing only three is grossly inaccurate.
PizzaMargherita 18:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No Italians in UK? This is not recorded by the UK census or any large-scale UK surveys. There may be some other smaller verifiable sources somewhere. Good luck finding them :) zzuuzz (talk) 19:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that Ladin and Friulan are really nearer to French and Catalan than they are to Italian; and also Sardinian is considered not a dialect, but a distinct language. As for Italians in the UK, there hase never been any big scale immigration, even if at a point this source alleged that their were 240.000 Italians in Great Britain; hiding where, that's a mistery ;-) Aldux 21:40, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Couple of things 

message: dove sono i italiani per questo articolo?
"part of a race known as meditarranean", what the..? i've never heard of a meditarranean race, i've heard of indo-european, mongoloid and negroid as general race classification origins..there is simply no such thing..given the fact that the meditarranean race would have to also include the germans and scandinavians too as they have all mixed in the italian peninsula..
"with dark features"..yes some of us have darker, not dark features but certainly that is not a marker of italian ethnicity as this american would mislead..so if i'm blonde, blue eyes and as pale as milk am i not italian, which so many are..
i agree that its ridiculous for a wikipedia article to state physical or skin appearence..does the british people page talk of their white complexions to identify their origin?
it should be taken down.
"Italians are hostile towards Muslims especially is because Italians know that they have a low fertility rate while those who are Muslim tend to have slightly higher ones."...this is too far, this is just a joke, what planet are you from...
firstly i dont really see this immense hostility, if it is so it wont be for any other than reasons we see all over europe and the us now, the stereotypical portrayal of muslims in the west and maybe general dislike of a foreign culture...which makes italians just as hostile to the french or british as they could be to 'muslims'...but the fertility rate idea is incredible, you are insane...
so if an italian is prejudice against a muslim you're saying he's thinking ahh you have more kids than me so i'll hate you..cmon..italians dont have a lesser fertile population, they choose to have fewer kids, a cultural shift which happened across the whole western world progressively..
there are no dialects of italy in the sense you claim, most are infact languages like Sicilian, Napolitan etc..upon italian unifcation only 2.5% approx spoke tuscan dialect which later was used as a national standard and called 'italian'...whereas in spain catalan, gallego and castellano are now all recognised as different languages.. in italy unforunately due to politics and zero tolerance against anything away from one italy one people our rich linguistic diversity has been overlooked and termed dialects.
unesco book of languages states that sicilian is a seperate language which it is..its fare more diverse than catalan is to spanish..than to italian.
in the uk there are indeed many many italians but it would be hard to track them down exactly as they did not arrive in mass numbers similar to the america's..for example an italian could come to the uk live there for years but still be officially classed as part of italy's population..
like me..
ciao
I agree. I think the section on physical appearance is very disquieting. I wouldnt take it if I was Italian. I think it has something to do with the W.A.S.P perception of Italians in the US, a very racialized society. Americans of Northern european extraction had to find or imagine racial characteristics to distinguish themselves and make themselves feel superior to these new immigrants. As someone said further up, no other mediterranean population on wiki has ANY reference to physical appearance, be it the Greeks, Portuguese, Spanish or Turks. These peoples have in common that none of them immigrated in a major way to the US and thereby have not been subject to racial profiling in the way the Italians have. This is why I said this is a "US thing" and the section should be deleted.--Burgas00 23:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  complete misconceptions 

message: I think that some of misconceptions stated above are ridiculous. However, it is necessary to write the fact that many people have these misconceptions regarding the Italian look as being dark because some do. It is true that many consider Italians to be white, but some have a firm grasp on the "olive skin." Their misconceptions need to be brought out much like this article does.
Many Italians do have pale skin. On an article I read on the internet, the blond hair ratio in Italy is 1 in 5 people (most common in the north, 6 per cent presence in the south). I have been to Italy, and the number of redheads are large especially in Italy. Also Italians know that Muslims (North Africans) have higher birth rates. I dont believe that their hostile because of that, but because the North African population is increasing vastly in number.
And Italians are less fertile than Muslim immigrants. That is why the Italian population in Italy is ageing while the Muslims population increase. If an average Italian women bears 1.2 children and a Muslim woman in italy bears 1.8 children, they have a higher fertility rate than Italians. It makes much sense.
A.G. February 20th, 2006
This comment above reflects the ignorance of a lot of people in some countries when they speak about race, especially the United States: "It is true that many consider Italians to be white, but some have a firm grasp on the "olive skin"". This guy seems to confuse the white race, or properly speaking the Caucasian race, with being blond or albino, or having a Nordic pale skin. Of course most Italians have a darker complexion than Northern Europeans, because they are Mediterranean, and they are probably whiter (more caucasian of course, not paler)than Northern Europeans(according to recent DNA analysis there has been a significant Mongoloid gene flow in Northern Europe for thousands of years -Nobody misinterpret this. Mongols are a great race like any other. This is just to clarify a few things-". By the way, the term Caucasian comes from the Caucasus, a region inhabited by dark haired, dark eyed people. And to finish, it is even funnier to see how these misconceptions of race come mainly from the United States, where the so-called "whites" have about a four per cent of Native American genes and one per cent of African-American genes, according to recent DNA analysis. So, according to their own racist one-drop theory there are virtually no whites in that country anymore. In Italy, almost the entire populaton is white, according to the same rule. If someone wants the citations to support my point, just tell me.
What is this discussion about? It sounds like we are in the 1930s. There is no such thing as the alpine race, nordic race or mediterranean race. These are all pre WW2 concepts which are not taken seriously now. Ok you can talk about physical appearance but please dont talk about it in terms of race! Btw, redheads are very common in North Africa aswell. --Burgas00 11:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  about complete misconceptions 

message: I made some changes including redoing the history section and replacing they physical appearance section with a more interesting genetic analysis. Hopefully, this version will be better received than the last. Tombseye 20:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think mainly the problem was my presentation rather than the data as Italy is amongst the most tested areas in the world and their placement as a largely Mediterranean people most similar to the Iberians is pretty universal. I agree that I may have overstated the north-south divide though as the similarities outweigh the variations in Italy, although the people there still cling to the belief in a north-south divide. Otherwise though, I think the genetic studies are very useful if put in better context. Your arguments are good and their inclusion in the article should help though. Tombseye 21:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed with that completely, especially considering none of the genetic studies cite the term "Nordic" anywhere in their reports. Epf 20:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Redoing the article

message: After reading many of the people’s articles in Wikipedia I have noticed something that cought my eye. In virtually all of the articles that I have read there is no “Genetic affinities” or similar section, in fact I can enumerate the following:
English people = None
Dutch people = None
Norwegian people = None
Swedish people = None
Danish people = None
Icelanders = None.
German people = None.
And I could go on…
Interestingly, what happens when we go to the two largest nations of Southern Europeans?
Italian people: One section. Space devoted to the section: about 25% of the article.
Spanish people: One section. Space devoted to the section: about 60% of the article.
You draw your own conclusions.
:Genetic affinities is banana-scholarship and you have every right to remove it. I've also noticed that many supposedly neutral editors massacre ethnic articles by focusing them on their nazi-like, unscientific POVs. It's ludicrous. Miskin 12:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Something smells rotten in the state of Wikipedia. 

message: Many of you state that southern Italians are and Sicilians are mixed race. First of all, all Europeans are mixed. In Europe, there were Black slaves especially in Portugal, France, and Britain. However, they have been absorbed into local populations. Also, if we look at Nordic and Eastern European countries, many despite their blonde hair, have many Asian elements and it is a genetic fact that there is a sizeable Asian element in them.
Has anyone ever considered that it is North Africans who are mixed. They are mixtures of European elements (from Roman times and Middles Ages), Berber (fair-skinned idiginous peoples), and Arab elements fused into one. That is why many have fair skin, and light hair.
Also, as stated above there is no ethnic Italian group, but those on the Italian peninsula essentially share the same genetic makeup. We know the Celts settled Northern Italy, and the Greeks colonised the south, but when the Romans came (central Italy) they expanded and absorbed these groups. During the decline of the Roman Empire, Germanic invaders plundered and settled northern Italy more extensively, and to a lesser extent, the south. Arabs invaded Sicily. That could possibly be the African element, but the Arabs were driven out of Sicily by the Normans (a French group). So it is not German people in Northern Italy that are the blondes and blue eyes. They are Italians. They just had more Celtic colonising than the south. Many Italians are blondes, and blue eyes in the north, probably the majority, but thats besides the point, because being blonde with blue eyes does make someone white.
I think everyone forgets that the reason why southern Italians are tanned than northerners can be defined in three ways:
-Location: Its just like the United States, and the rednecks of the south; the "rednecks" skin colour is dark due to heat.
-Colonisation: Southern Italy recieved far less immigration from the Celtic peoples, but extensive colonisation by Greeks.
-Lifestyle: Southern Italy remains predominantly rural, resulting in sun exposure. Sun exposure can actually alter genetics.
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If fact, Northen Italians are not blond. Blondism occurs in the North in about 12 percent of the cases and in the south in about 7 percent. So, as you can see there is a lot of Myth mixed with crap in all that.
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Well, thats wierd. if blondism occurs about 12 per cent in the north and 7 per cent in the south, therefore there is a genetic blond trait in italians resulting in natural blondes.
So what, Mediterran populations are not 100% brunets, most of them are brunet but blondism occurs in them at a certain percentage, but they continue to be Mediterraneans. What happens is that a lot of morons try to link Nothern Italians with the Lombards. Genetic evidence speaks otherwise. The number of those people had to be very small, or else, why do you think that they speak Italian? Or were they culturally so inferior that they lost their own language?
:This ethnic article is based on the definition of ethnicity by the standards of credible scholarship, not by Mein Kampf's. Are you people serious on the 125 million "ethnic Italians" all over the word (including 25 million in Brasil)? Miskin 01:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Miskin. As for the number of Italians in Brasil, I can only say I've heard it quite a lot of times in Italy, and under Italian Brazilians it is said that the italian embassy also claims the number. This is not exactly independent, but unfortunately Brazil does not to ancestry census. Obviously it does not account for "pure" Italians in the country; as in Uruguay and Argentina, Italians have intermarriaged a lot, more than in Northern America. On the other side, many of these numbers only account for the possessors of Italian citizenship, while that of France only numbers those who still speak Italian. As for the complete number, it includes also those that have multiple ancestry. It may seem high to non-Italians, but we know to well that no nation has been forced to migrate more than Italians in the last two centuries to eat.--Aldux 11:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Aldux would you agree to remove the "Genetic placement of the Italians" section? Assuming that what it says is correct, I still don't see in what exactly it serves. In my opinion it interests nobody except the person who compiled it, and maybe some of the nazi-friendly crowd that has edited the Talk page. Such entries are POV and unscientific, and have no place in wikipedia's ethnic articles. Modern criteria of ethnicity do NOT include genetics nor physical looks as any determinants whatsoever. This section is almost literally using science of the 3rd Reich. If for no good reason, this section should go because it prevents an Italian national of foreign ethnic origin to assimilate in the society and feel himself an Italian. Miskin 12:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I wouldn't have any problems having it removed, even if the section, believe it or not, is already a big progress to the one that was there before ;-) But maybe we should consider speaking to Tombseye, the main author of the section (I think). Anyways, I fully agree with you that genetics are of no importance in the definition of ethnicity.--Aldux 13:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

text: "Debate resolution on the origins" as you put it, is far beyond the scope of wikipedia's ethnic group project. If you ever manage to start a specific series on "people's genetics" or "racial purity" (or whatever), you're free to add it there. The 21st century definition of "ethnic group" does not have any affiliation with such edits. Miskin 14:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, what kind of errand will you do for me once I present you my sources? Miskin 14:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The Spanish people page is at a very bad state. 70% of the article desperately tries to prove that Spaniards have a european (i.e. "white") background. Such a racial focus almost implies that people of non-white, non-european or mixed-race background are somehow inferior (I don't see any black nation's africans trying to prove their pure sub-saharan origin). If we kept those edits, then what would we write in Latin-American articles? "This section doesn't exist because we're all mixed here" maybe? As you understand (I hope) such edits are politically incorrect. They promote hate, racism and enforce people to make discriminations amongst each other. In a caricature, they unwillingly revive racial theories that were invented and promoted in the 3rd Reich (next step would be to start trashing Jews and homosexuals). And some people would agree that wikipedia's purpose is nowhere near that. Human civilisation is supposed to be advancing, i.e. to go forward not backwards. Miskin 14:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity 2 

message: There are some errors that I have tried to correct in this new version.
1. The Portuguese are not other Mediterranean people. They are Iberians.
2. We cannot compare the possible differences between the North and South of Italy with those of the North and South of Spain. It is not a good simile.
I will change that if unless there are reasonable comments.
Well I have to disagree on this. 
Portuguese are about the most Mediterranean people there are (even though their territory has no mediterranean shores). Iberians are Mediteraneans and your comment is similar to one saying Italians are not Mediterranean they are Italic". They also have a similar history to other mediterranean countries (Territories with originally mediterranean populations with Phoenician, Greek, Punic colonies, becoming Roman province (Lusitania), long period of Islamic occupation etc...)
In my opinion, the difference between the north-south divisions in Iberia and Italy is that in Iberia, this supposed "difference"  has not been historically used by northerners against southerners in the way it has been used in Italy. Perhaps because in Spain, the aim was separation from the Spanish state (an entity which had allegiances in every part of the country) rather than from "the south" - the enemy was only Madrid.
--Burgas00 12:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want info about ancestry of modern day iberians check out the list of genetic studies on the issue at the end of the "Spanish people" page.--Burgas00 11:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think some clarification is required regarding a north-south divide in both Italy and Spain etc. In the case of Spain, genetic tests have linked people in the north to some original larger Atlantic group, possibly of Celtic origin so there is something of a north-south variation, but not necessarily a solid divide. It's more like saying the people of the north tend to be more closely related to the larger group of peoples who have relations with the ancient Celts such as the French, British, Irish etc. In the case of Italy, settlement from northern Europe would probably be more substantial in the extreme north of the country just because of geographic proximity, but does not preclude the overall relationship of Italians in general. Tombseye 21:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, the thing is we don't know if the Iberians or Celts are responsible for some common genes found from Ireland to northern Spain, but it's possible as you say. The article I'm referring to is this one: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n4/41464/41464.web.pdf?erFrom=-1580355625998379605Guest
It makes the case that there is a common Celtic ancestry for many peoples from northern Spain to northern Europe. The Basques are a different story though and not part of this study as Galicia was used in regards to northern Spain. Well, we do know that the Celts also settled in northern Italy as their conflicts with Rome are well known and Germanic invaders came later as well. Overall, many studies seem to point to much of the world's people as stemming largely from neolithic populations that absorbed various invaders to varying degrees. Spaniards vary as much as Italians, but genetically seem to be very similar. Tombseye 23:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New ethnicity section 

message: Burgas, being myself of Italian heirtage on my mom's side (English and Scottish on the father's) and also knowing many Greeks where I live, the physical correlations between Italians and Greeks are much closer than with Iberians. The same can also be said with Albanians, but these correlations in appearance date back to the Bronze Age, Neolithic or perhaps even earlier. These phenotypic traits were at one time (incorrectly) long ago labelled as typologically "dinaric" or "alpine" by people like Carleton Coon basing from cranial measurements displaying high brachycephaly (wide, broad or round-headed). Of course his findings are obsolete and unaccepted, but his analysis of pheontypic traits do in many cases have factual grounding and I can vouch for that from personal experience/research, especially in this case. Ciao, Epf 05:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great points!!! Kukini 05:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greeks 

message: Could someone around here help on expanding the article of Fieri? DrWho42 18:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Fieri]]