Talk:List of Latin place names in Continental Europe, Ireland and Scandinavia

message: I've been adding real locations on Portugal of the Roman Empire in this article, but has now I see clearly (sorry if I didnt saw), the article states that these "Latin" names are in fact, Latinized names used in the middle ages for places in Europe. I think we shoud create an article for the Real names on cities and towns of the Roman Empire. I see the same problem in other countries that use the real Roman names. That would be of a great help for people interested in History subjects. This article (Latin names of European cities) is interesting has a curiosity on Middle Ages geography. How we name the article if there's not one already. -Pedro 14:24, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree that it would be good and encyclopaedic to have a list of "real" Roman, that is ancient names. Unfortunately I don't have the expertise to make it. If anyone does, please help. --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 20:59, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Real names on cities and towns of the Roman Empire 

message: Good idea. But that is not necessary, because we have an entry for Danzig.
Maybe you can help me with installing a table ?  user:H.J.
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Thank you Brian !  user:H.J.
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Ok -- I have a couple of comments.  First, I have already discussed that the methodology regularly used by Fr. user:H.J. leaves much to be desired.  Family History (or annotated genealogy) must still be seen within a wider framework of normal history to be at all valid.  
Second, the place names in this table are somewhat suspect.  I'm not saying that they are incorrect (although some are abbreviations of Latin names that have been used as if they are the full names -- probably because of an unfamiliarity with Latin).  Rather, these names seem to be the Latin names as used in a particular time period -- my guess is from the Early Modern period, specifically 16th or 17th c.  As such, many of the names are Latinized versions of local names.  They are not incorrect, but indicate that there was a non-Latin name in use, which was then given a Latin genitive ending to make it fit in with older place names derived from those given in Roman and Medieval times.  The fact that there is a Latin name for something does not mean it existed as such in the pre-Modern period -- In fat, it's looking at history in the wrong direction -- taking a current thing, and making it causative to the past, instead of looking at the past and how changes then affect the present.
Third, since this is an English language encyclopedia, it is appropriate that attention first be paid to Latin-English, then to the translations to other languages.  The only reason to focus on German equivalents is to propogate certain irredentist views which are inappropriate to this site. JHK
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Your ever-present overpowering optimism really shines bright again, as always JHK !!!
The spellings are taken from actual recordings and I think all the different spellings one comes across should be listed , as I had started it(some were taken off), but then perhaps it would add too many , because spelling in German language was not standardized until the 20th century.
Anyway we could add another column with current names and present countries, where applicable.
But your introduction text is very good . It is free of your behind the scene (/Talk section) "charm".
user:H.J.
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Thanks, user:H.J. -- Maybe lots of us could be more charming if you EVER bothered to look at historical method.  If you actually understood what I said, there is no validity to the list as you wrote it except in the very narrow sense of the 16th and 17th century maps you used.  The place names are not actually all the proper historic names -- or not those valid at different periods.  So this needs to be written as either "Names found in Latin on certain maps of the 16th and 17th century and translated into German equivalents" which is at best semi-useful, or you have to accept that perhaps you don't have an objective view.
I notice that you haven't bothered to respond to either my questions as to the readings on historical methodology or to my most recent analogy of MD vs. PhD.  Whether or not you like it, What you snidely call "charm" is merely reflects the frustrated expressions of a person who wants to see clear-cut, well-written articles on this site.  You have demonstrated on almost every occasion that you don't care about accuracy or a correct approach to sources or history, but you continue to put up historical articles.  If you bothered to take a step back and ask yourself why so many people object to the way your articles present information, you might realize that many of those objections are valid and do something about them! JHK
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Regarding Latin names -- it is best to put the nominative form of the name whenever possible.  If there is no nominative (or a genitive form is used as a nominative), it is often an indication that the Latin name is an adaptation of another local name.  This is actually quite important, since it helps indicate (although seldom conclusively) the most-often used name of the town without the Latin ending. JHK 
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To JHK  I am reading the civitatis of the actual records. Perhaps we can start a section somewhere decribing urb civitatis etc. For now leave it off the list as is.
:I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.  In Latin, the nominative (subject) form of the words are urbs and civitas.  It could be that what you are reading says something like, "of the city of..." , but I wouldn't know without reading it myself.  Please believe me on this -- I can think of an example that might help.  I have done a lot of work with Latin sources, and, for example, I can't think of a  time when I saw the word 'Moguntia in a document, because the reference is usually in the context of "of Mainz (Moguntiae)" or "to Mainz (Moguntiam, sometimes Moguntiacem -- scribes weren't always grammatically corrtect)" or "in Mainz (where they alternate between the Dative Moguntiae and the Ablative Moguntia".  Nevertheless, there IS a correct form to use in present circumstance -- and it's the Nominative (except in those cases I mentioned where there is only a genitive).  For the actual words for city and town, we use urbs or civitas in English.  JHK
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I am looking at ,example: Moneta Nova Civitatis Hamburgensis . What is the difference of urbs or civitas ? HJ 
:Ok -- then it says "new money (coin, or coinage) of the city of Hamburg."  Technically (in Classical Latin) the civitas was the state, or polity, whereas the urbs was a town or city, usually walled.  By the late  Middle Ages, I'm pretty sure the two were used almost interchangeably, so you could say "city" -- except that, because Hamburg wanted to claim or imply a type of independence, the word could have been chosen deliberately -- scholars would know the difference.  See what I mean about history and sources (and even coins are sources -- I wrote a grad paper on the use of coinage for propaganda purposes in the reign of the Emperor Gallienus and almost all the sources were the coins themselves!)  not being straightforward? You really have to look at things from as many angles as you can, and then, based on what you know and what has gone before (and is accepted or rejected), draw a conclusion.  ;-)
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civitas was the state (city and surrounding areas with the same name) versus urbs the city by itself . That's what it sounds like to me.I am talking about 1500 1600 1700's. We definately should have an entry on this, by you if you can do it , or with help. HJ 
: Thanks for your confidence, but I'm not sure it's worth an article, because it's really more of a historical usage of a word -- so more a dictionary entry.  
:Overall, I think that you are making a safe assumption for the 16th - 18th centuries -- except that you'll find it's not true in many cases!  For example, with Hamburg, you have a definite urbs Hamburgensis -- the city itself.  But you also have the civitas Hamburgensis -- an independent state or polity (kind of).  This is true to a point, but seen in light of the times, and the fact that the powers of the Hanse cities was greatly reduced, you can see why they would want to emphasize a more significant political identity.  SO, you have to see civitas not only as a geographical location, but more importantly as the State -- not geographic, but a political and social entity.  Then, you have to judge each occurance in the context in which it appears.  Does that make sense?  I know sounds confusing, but really, that's the only thing that works! JHK
::that's a fine brief essay on urbs, civitas, and the propaganda value of choosing one or the other on coinage, JHK.  I agree entirely.  MichaelTinkler
:::Thanks! ;-)
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Mediolanum is the Latin name of an Italian city.  It is the Latin name of a city of the Holy Roman Empire.  It is not the Latin name of a German city. --MichaelTinkler
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MT you are absolutely right, that is what is is now. And this is a good example how facts get messed up by different inputs.
When you click back on my original entry you will find that I am stating that during the Holy Roman Empire...  The Holy Roman Empire was removed , but should be re-inserted.
The German name for the city is Mailand Meiland ,Lombardei 
Now it is in Italy . Somewhere I have suggested that we could add another column with current names and countries. What do you think ? user:H.J.
:Well, the entry title says 'german cities'.  Milan was never called 'Mailand' except by Germans, and, as I told you elsewhere, its official name was always 'Mediolanum' until it became 'Milano'.  Don't put it on the current entry.  We do not need this entry, or other gazetteer entries like it. --MichaelTinkler
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Hi all  -- I changed the name and removed HRE because Latin names for cities in the HRE is way too narrow for a good article, and it was growing beyond that.  Also, I removed HRE because it is a political entity, not a time period.  This is much more useful if we make it broader. -- JHK
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to JHK ,changing it to European cities would enlarge the list greatly.
JHK and MT
Going back to your and MT's answers on urbs versus civitas , I would say, the urbs is the city itself, while the civitas is the city and surrounding area under the same city government.
(Sacramento city=urbs and  Sacramento city and Sacramento county=civitas). Civitatis would be translated ...of the city , as in moneta civitatis , money of the city.
:Yes, but as JHK wrote above, just because someone claims to be a civitas doesn't mean that they necessarily ARE a civitas. 
To both of you, on the use of specific descriptions, Germany or HRE had and has very strict regulations. They did not just build cities. A city charter was authorized by the emperor (or king, duke etc all with imperial or royal power). Even holding a market or holding a trade fair had to be authorized. When a city was filled up, a new city had to be authorized, then usually called Neustadt (neu city), whereas the old city was called Altstadt. the same went for money coining. The cities had authorization from the emperor etc, who gave the legal right to coin money. Having been Free Cities was so prestigious, that cities in Switzerland still displayed the imperial eagle, even after they were not in the empire any more.
user:H.J.
:Actually, of course, many cities pre-existed the empire (most of the Rhineland, for instance), and sometimes people did just do things and demand (or buy) recognition later. What you are describing, HJ, is the legal ideal rather than the reality. --MichaelTinkler
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Ok -- I said above that civitas is not always (and in earlier times almost never) geographically defined.  So, for example, if we were talking about modern Augusta Vindelicorum (where I lived for several years), there is an Altstadt and a Neustadt.  But both  of these would be considered urbs in Latin.  On the other hand, the civitas Augustae Vindelicorum would be the courts, the government, and all the citizens with legal rights, AND the city itself.  It isn't clear, and the HRE definitions actually don't come into it.  Language transcends that.  JHK
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If a place is named civitas, as you discribe it , this includes the legal rights for self government. Is it for self government ? or limited government ? And if a city and county is named civitas, could or would they have stated that if they were not a civitas but only an urbs ? HJ
:That's not what I'm saying -- it could include legal rights, but the difference is not a legal one.  You have to understand that this is a case of language usage.  We're talking about a period when people had rediscovered many lost classics and affected the trappings of Rome to enhance their standing and often to support their claims to independence or authority.  In a case like the Hamburg coins, we're talking about what may have been the case, but more importantly, was what the people who ran Hamburg wanted other people to see them as.  So not just Freie Stadt Hamburg, but Freier Staat Hamburg. And what they said did not have to be any more true than it is that all US citizens trust in God (as it says in our coins).  
:Also, between Late Antiquity and the Modern period, depending on where you were and how well-educated the writer, civitas and urbs could easily have been interchangeable in some people's minds.  Language changes over time, and it's very difficult to make one statement that covers all circumstances. JHK
::In the case you are describing, JHK, it is like the distinction in American English between road and street.  According to some strict constructionists (like my father), "roads" are rural and "streets" are urban and "boulevards" have to have a strip of grass and trees down the middle of them.  Most municipalities, however, ignore this distinction.  Similarly, urbs and civitas and even municipium get thrown around a lot.  Usage does not always conform to legal ideals, as you are showing. --MichaelTinkler
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Sablones == Venlo? AFAIK, Venlo did not even exist in those days. There was a small port across the river called Blariacum, though, now called Blerick. (This is all from memory and I am not even sure it is correct, but I was born in Venlo and have lived in Blerick for a large part of my life.) Anyhow, just an 'are you sure?'--branko
:No, Sablones was a Latin name used in later time for Venlo, as also Silva Ducis (that city wasn't founded until way after the Roman Empire was gone). However, these names are often used in scientific or genealogist sources, and I thought them to be interesting anyhow. --JHeijmans
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General Question -- on Cologne -- we've got two similar Latin names -- are they both valid?  IIRC, Colonia Agrippinensis is the original name -- but it may have been re-named for Agrippina at a later date...or I might be mistaken! We should get it straight, though. JHK
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Would it be appropriate to add a column for the translation of the Latin name, where it makes sense to do so (e.g. Silva ducis)?  I'd know I'd find it handy.
:I don't think it would, really -- we never translate them in English -- just leave them as is!  If you are wondering, though, just ask -- I'm sure one of the Latinists around will help.  Silva ducis is "the duke's wood" but it doesn't mean much, because in the Middle Ages, a dux (the latin word) is a military leader, and doesn't fit into the whole title thing! JHK
Silva ducis I knew.  Mainly I was wondering about the general ways in which names were Latinized, or new ones were coined.  Resources on toponym etymology are not easy to find in one's spare time, so it seems like any material we added on it to wikipedia would be worthwhile.
:Urgh -- the only real resources I know of are in German -- the Dictionary of Medieval latin might be helpful, but it isn't finished.  As it stands, the information is way too complex for the 'pedia -- we're talking VOLUMES of Latin name-German versions (in dialects and several places where it could be).  I think this table is somewhat useful, but I honestly don't know of any one resource. JHK
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By the way -- a bunch of these "Latin names" are just names with a Latin Genitive ending -- perhaps we should find the nominative form before adding??JHK
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If a single word ends in "-ensis" (English -ese), it's not the name of the city but an adjective describing its inhabitants. Thus "Berolinensis" means not "Berlin" but "Berliner". Is the city Berolinum, or what? -phma
:I don't think so -- my experience with medieval Latin tells me that many local names were latinized, but generally only to the point of adding a genitive ending, so that the city (or Church, diocese, etc.) is referred to by Civitas -ensis -- the city is declined, but we  then keep the Genitive of the name.  So, if you were going to Berlin, you'd be going ad civitam Berolinenses.  The awkward part comes when the declinable part gets dropped (which seems to have happened a lot), and we're stuck with the common name -- the Genitive.  Thus endeth this spiel on Latin...JHK
::That's not a genitive. I think it's called gentilic, or some such word, but not genitive. The genitive of Berolinum is Berolini. -phma
:::Right, but that's assuming that Berolinum is the Nominative -- is it?  I really don't know -- I was just explaining why many place-names are listed by a third declension ending.  Michael Tinkler is the person to ask about the specifics, and I think he has elsewhere on the site.  WHy would you say it's not a Genitive, though? JHK
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I don't think this page is correctly named because it is plural, but I'm not sure what to change it to.
--Ellmist Thursday, September 5th, 2002
:It's a list; there's no clean way to link to it no matter what you want to do. --Brion
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What would be Latin name of New Belgrade? :) Nikola 20:48, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gdansk 

message: This page has gotten fairly large, and the single long list format (contrary to guidelines) makes it difficult to edit and to find ancient names that match current names.  Apparently, the North Atlantic portion has already been (mostly) split.  It seems a bit of the Iberian peninsula has been done, too.
Since I've been doing some personal research on ancient names in the Balkans for the freeciv.org game -- and my additional data would increase the table size by at least 50% -- it seemed a good time to split the page.
After the weekend, assuming there is no problem, I'll begin carefully removing the originals from this table.  Take a look at the new page, and please give feedback. 
Eventually, I think other candidates for division would be Asia, and Italy itself, leaving just the outskirts of the Roman Empire here. WilliamAllenSimpson 07:47, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting Balkans 

message: Some of these divisions into tiny pages (communities, rivers) would be better to find in one place.  Who can tell whether something is "town" versus "city", or "Roman" versus "Latin".  It seems to me that the "Source(s)" column could be used to indicate an ancient or "Modern" usage.
Meanwhile, there is a proliferation of pages for Britain and Portugal, but related names remain here that might be better there (with more descriptive page names).
I'm going to attempt a first pass that divides the names by country (where indicated) that should make things easier to edit, merge, and split.
William Allen Simpson 17:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging and Splitting 

message: Sometimes there are really numerous alternative spellings and variants of some Latin names. See for example  Olomouc in Brigham Young University Harold B. Lee Library. I don't know how to deal with them. List them all? Or if only some of them should be chosen, then what criteria should be followed when choosing? Jan.Kamenicek 19:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numerous alternatives 

message: For William Allen Simpson: There is neither diacritics in Swedish, Polish, German etc.. names in English, please strip them of the whole article.
Irony aside, unless there is a well-established English name for a foreign city (such as Munich for München), the English name is the same as the local name, that is, with all the diacritics included. rado 13:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Slovak diacritics

message: Why is Italy missing on the list? Meursault2004 09:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I missed List of Latin place names in Italy ... Meursault2004 09:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italy 

message: Why are only cities, and not regions or countries, listed here? john k 15:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why only cities? 

message: Why is Romania missing, that's bullshit! A lot of place names there have a latin influence, almost all! Just put them here! 195.240.93.153 13:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am convinced that most people here would appreciate your question, if it was written in a more polite way. Despite this, have a look at the List of Latin place names in the Balkans, where you can find Romania. Jan.Kamenicek 19:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romania2 

message: Does people have any hint, where the Latin versions listed here come from? For Savonlinna my observation is that on the old map of Olaus Magnus it is "Castrv Novv" or something like that. Are there any other references to recorded use of the name? --Isidorus Finn (talk) 16:57, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finland - Savonlinna 

message: Ireland doesn't seem to fit here but, with only one entry, wouldn't make sense to haev its own article. How abot moving it to the British article? AndrewRT(Talk) 00:49, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ireland 

message: The Norwegian names look more like adjectives to me. Can anyone confirm or invalidate this? --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 20:59, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norway 

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thread_title:  External links modified