Talk:Argentine air forces in the Falklands War

message: I would like to add some more data like this  --Jor70 21:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe in chronological order?--Necessary Evil 00:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   I put them by tail code , but yes I think now that by date + location would be better  Jor70 02:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More details 

message: Is a KC-130 tanker not just an ordinary C-130, with a refuelling kit? I've read that the two KC-130 tankers had the codenames "París" and "Berlín". I've just forgot my source; do you have some comments ? Necessary Evil 17:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, only TC-69 and TC-70 could done aerial refuel, the kit was not changeable to the others airframes. I not remember reading about Paris and Berlin, I know they were/are popularly called Chancha (female pig) Jor70 18:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps they were call signs for TC-69 and TC-70 in an attack plan: "..rendezvous with PARÍS on the way out and rendezvous with BERLÍN on the way home..." ?? I recall some of the skyhawks was called VULCANO, ZEUS, MARTE, TORO ETC. Was the aircraft individually painted or was it call signs for one strike? Necessary Evil 17:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Every flight mission (strikes,transport,decoy,refuel,...) issued by the FAS (Fuerza Aerea Sur)  was called in Spanish Orden Fragmentaria and had a radio signal. Examples are Orden Fragmentaria 1177 : 4 A-4B named Cuña 1 to Cuña 4 , Orden Fragmentaria 2258 (C-130 shot down while perfoming recognition)was Tiza.   Cpt Carballo for example was Nene 1 when his section attack Antelope and was Vulcano 1 against the Coventry.  KC-130s often used Perro (Dog) 1 and Perro 2  but were always affectively called chanchas --Jor70 18:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds very interesting, there could be a whole new article regarding Argentine missions with call signs and pilots etc. I can remember a map, with PARÍS and BERLÍN as areas, where Skyhawks and/or Super Etendart could meet KC-130's. Regards Necessary Evil 21:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The best book that I know about this is  this one written by FAA officer. There is also a english translated edition --Jor70 22:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  KC-130 

message: Isn't the video copyrighted and therefore not to be linked to?GraemeLeggett 16:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: dont think so, Youtube allows to be linked to them and the content itself would be deleted by Youtube  if is not appropiated Jor70 17:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In general Wikipedia frowns on links to YouTube for practical reasons; Wikipedia is not liable for copyright violations in a case such as this, but in the scenario you describe, someone will have to periodically check the Youtube link to see if it still works. -Ashley Pomeroy 20:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: this  particular video has been in youtube for 2 months now and it does not seem to have any problem --Jor70 23:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  You tube link 

message: I would like to add more coverage of FAA and COAN actions, but I would like to known first if there are any  objections.  Jor70 17:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea, but perhaps as subarticles. Necessary Evil 20:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More detail 

message: Hi User:Jor70. Fuerza Aérea Argentina has three generalranks: 
*Brigadier General — 3-star or Lieutenant General
*Brigadier Mayor — 2-star or Major General
*Brigadier — 1-star or Brigadier General
In the article it's like all senior AF officers are 1-star generals, wasn't Ernesto Crespo a 2-star general? And was Lami Dozo the only 3-star general? Necessary Evil 20:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All commands were created during April'82 with Air Brigades chiefs choosen as their commanders, Crespo being from IV Air Brigade (a striker),  Hughes from the VIII (a fighter), etc.   Lami Dozo (AF chief of staff ) was the only 3-star whilst 2-star were AF chief of personel, AF chief of logistic, (non-combatants) etc.  Wings commanders (Escuadrillas) were commodores and vice commodores .Jor70 22:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argentine Air Force general ranks 

message: What kind of guns and rockets were the T-34 armed with? Or are it omitted because they didn't see action (all four were sabotaged at the Pebble Island raid)? If that's the case, it's OK with me. Did the MB.339 attack with guns (the two dead sailors on HMS Argonaut, at D-Day)?
Regards Necessary Evil 13:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: T-34 used to have LAU-32 7-Tube rocket launcher plus SUU-11 7.62mm Minigun pod. Lt Owen Crippa, used rockets and gun fire when overfly the Argonaut during his recco flight. In fact, in his report he  confirm the guns impact but didnt know about the rockets result. For engaged the british anphibious fleet alone ( flying twice over the area to determine the number of ships ) he was awarded with the max condecoration La Nacion Argentina al Heroico valor en Combate Jor70 14:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Argonaut was attacked twice by Argentine aircraft on the 21st May. The first, by Lieutenant Crippa in his Aermacchi MB-339, caused some damage to her Radar.  The second, by six Skyhawks of Grupo 5, 2 bombs hit,  one in the boiler room , the second hit forward below the waterline, passed through a fuel tank and into the Seacat magazine. Although neither exploded, the second detonated a Sea Cat Missile & killed two sailors, Able Seaman Iain M. Boldy and Able Seaman Matthew J. Stuart.  It took a number of days to deactivate these Bombs. Steve Bowen (talk) 08:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  T-34 armament 

message: What does this sentence mean? 'Argentine military aviation during the 1982 war did not benefit from their fastest jets neither outnumbering the British Sea Harrier force'? Are we saying that there was no benefit from the restricted speed or the relative numbers of opponents? Please could you clarify this please Kernel Saunters 13:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The aim should be to give an good overview of the situation rather than to right any perceived wrongs. I can assure you that several of your points have been well reported in the UK especially the UXBs and the lack of time for the pilots in the combat zone so if I have time I'll add supporting info from British sources. I'm still a bit unclear of the meaning of the sentence mean starting 'Argentine military aviation and exactly what the intent is? Kernel Saunters 18:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  When I wrote the paragrah, I started with Contrary to popular understanding, ...  and that is a fact due we can find dozen of articles written these days (25 years later!!) on the British media Jor70 18:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Removed the sentence regarding the Argentine military aviation's previous conflict "a century earlier". So... the argentinians had a military airforce in 1882 did they? 86.152.114.34 (talk) 11:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Background section

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replies: text: Please note that I've just removed this image, not because of any copyright issue, but as I believe it's irrelevant to the content of this article. The image is in the Escuadron Fenix wikiarticle, and no other squadron badges are shown in this article. Kind regards, DPdH (talk) 15:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Escuadron Fenix.jpg

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replies: text: done! --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Pucara-plane.jpg

message: I would like to refute this paragraph: Argentine sources indicate....[17][18][19]
*[17] As a result of these heavy losses...it was decided to pull the Mirage III's back to the mainland to stand alert for a possible Vulcan attack...16 --- 16  is Ethell, "Strike", p. 17.
*[18] Finally, the bombing raids caused the Argentines to fear an air attack on the mainland, causing them to retain some Mirage aircraft and Roland missiles for defense.  Unfortunately the British Secretary of State for Defense announced sometime later that Britain would not bomb targets on the Argentine mainland.5 --- 5 is Hastings, p. 3.
*[19] Los M III debían defender el territorio continental argentino de posibles ataques de los bombarderos Vulcan de la RAF, brindar escolta a los cazabombarderos de la FAA, e impedir los ataques de aviones de la Royal Navy y de la RAF sobre las Malvinas  traslanted by google is The M III should defend the Argentine continental territory from attacks of the RAF Vulcan bomber, providing fighter escort to the FAA, and to prevent attacks by aircraft of the Royal Navy and the RAF on the Falklands  that is not withdrawal at all
Therefore there are not argentines sources here for this affirmation
:Clearly not, [17] in 16, Ethell is quoting from interviews with Argentine Air Force officers, its quoted in the text as well.  [18]  5 is not Hastings it is Air Vice Marshall Stewart W. B. Menaul, "The Falklands Campaign:  A War of Yesterday" Strategic Review, Fall 1982 [19] is the Argentine airforce magazine.  [17] and [19] are clearly based on Argentine sources, they confirm the withdrawal of Mirage III as the result of the Vulcan raids.  The very source you quoted to originally refute that paragraph simply confirms it, this is simply ridiculous.  We've been through this before on the Black Buck article, you're going round the buoy again, trying to remove it, again.  This is farsical, its an established consensus text and you have not provided a justification.  This is attempted censorship.  Justin talk 21:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will try to get an Ethell book copy to read the interview and get back here. Elsewhere the other 2 ref  quotes 18: SOME MIRAGES and  19: prevent attacks by aircraft of the Royal Navy and the RAF on the Falklands. --Jor70 (talk) 14:08, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does it say every single Mirage III was withdrawn?  You're splitting hairs in an effort to censor, this is not acceptable.  This is ridiculous, the official Argentine Air Force magazine prints an article that confirms they were withdrawn to defend BA. End of Story, do not pass go, do not collect £200.  Justin talk 19:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Justin's proved the sources are of Argentine origin, looks like you're just trying to POV push Jor. Ryan4314  (talk) 20:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Mirage withdrawal

message: I'm unsure what the meaning of "traffic" in the section Argentine traffic planes is. Can anyone please clarify? 
Thanks & regards, DPdH (talk) 15:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argentine "traffic" planes ?? 

message: I am curious to know if there is a WELSH connection, perhaps via the long established colony in Patagonia, given his surname. If so, it curiously illustrates a sad and continuing state of unnecessary belligerence between Briton and Saxon in a geographical location which neither of the original tribal entities could have known to exist.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.77.191 (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You will find plenty (if not all) of european surnames among Argentines, not only italians or spaniards. --Jor70 (talk) 21:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  brigadier jorge HUGHES, airforce radar etc. 

message: Hi Jor70,
Sorry, I can not find your premise If you want to know how you fought, then ask your enemy under the 5 pillars of Wikipedia. You can not choose the most appropriate slogan for your POV and then raise it to a law for other Wikipedians. Definitively WP doesn't work that way. Also your reverts and deletes are, to put it mildly, very unkindly. The POV-Tag says explicit "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved.". So, please wait until the dispute is resolved. I would please you very kindly to read often the rules of WP.
Even though you want to hide it, it is obvious (for me) that the intention behind the generous words of Sandy Woodward is to strengthen the loser in order to exalt the victor. That is one of the reason why WP warns us of using WP:PRIMARY sources. Take for example the Commentarii de Bello Gallico of Julius Cesar. This book is also a masterwork of political propaganda, as Caesar was keenly interested in manipulating his readers in Rome to support him. Of course Woodward isn't Cesar but he can't be the only reference about the FAA during the war. I think R.O.Moro is a good amendment for Woodward particularly because you recommended it under "References".
Whether the opinions gathered by Moro are worth to be considered, that should be resolved by the readers and not by you. In any case Ruben O. Moro published it, even though, as you noticed and I transmited to the reader through the word "alleged", he self doesn't support them fully. He knows more of the war than we know.
The rest of your rationale ("2 ) all items are very easy debatable, e.g. ground support...") is WP:OR and it is non usable in this article. Use your personal blog therefor.
I propose you to include in some way the points of R.O. Moro. We can made references to other books also, like "Military Lessons of the Falkland Islands War: Views from the United States" Edited by Bruce W. Watso and Peter M. Dumm, for example. But the reader must be informed about other views about the performance of the FAA.
If you absolutely refuse to write any sentence that could be interpreted as a failure of the FAA, then we will have to get a third opinion about.
Best Regards, --Keysanger 17:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  5 pillars of WP and no slogans 

message: Hi Jor70,
I solicited a third opinion, meanwhile, take a break. Your answers are out of place, please re-read the 3 questions and try it again. Best regards, --Keysanger 23:31, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: We already had a third opinion (A British one),  you are requesting a fouth now  --Jor70 (talk) 01:13, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Third Opinion solicited

message: Fueron usados en el puente aereo, foto del 29 de abril de 1982 = http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7256/chanchitas005.jpg ( 3 C-130 + 1 G.222 )  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.12.61.154 (talk) 13:22, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  G.222 Ejercito Argentino 

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thread_title: File:A4Q ARA 1982.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: Dear wikipedians, I propose to rename this article Argentine air services in the Falklands War, which would be more accurate (as Argentina formally has one "air force", the others are services/commands of the other armed forces or paramilitary forces), and consistent with the name used in the equivalent article on about the British air units in this war(see "Talk Page" of that article). Unless there is a sound reason not to, I'd do the move at some point next week. Kind regards, DPdH (talk) 05:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with your proposal. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 17:09, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

text: As do I. WCMemail 18:26, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move - to partially change name 

message: I’ve edited the air campaign section; the ships sunk/damaged lines seemed out of place with the others (which deal with the various systems) so I’ve moved them to their own section (“Successes”).
This may be uncontroversial, but I’m mindful this is a sensitive subject, so I’m offering this as an explanation. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Air campaign 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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Revisiting the Falklands/Malvinas war. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Attack on HMS Invincible]] up for deletion