Talk:Order of the People's Hero

message: The correct translation of narodni heroj is national hero, not people's hero, as is evident from Slovenian usage - if it were people's hero, it would be ljudski heroj in Slovenian. Zocky | picture popups 04:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are simply wrong. "Narodni" in Slovenian means national, nothing else. It's the same word as used in "National Liberation War", etc. Zocky | picture popups 04:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are some links that agree with me: http://www.dictionary-directory.info/translator/en/national.html and  http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal.org/text/x35/xr3517.html Zocky | picture popups 04:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: To be frank, I do not find your links very convincing. The first one, for example, is rife with other mistranslations, such as sugradjanin for national, which should really be translated compatriot. They just confirm that this is something that is often mistranslated, which is no reason to incorporate it in Wikipedia. There are just as many places, even on Wikipedia, that translated narodni with people's. 141.154.205.61 22:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, "jugoslovenska narodna armija" is "Yugoslav people's army", that's why it's "Jugoslavanska ljudska armada" in Slovenian.  "National" means "of the nation", not "of the ethnicity", and ethnicity is just a small and not always necessary component of a nation. In any case, these terms were translated to Slovenian by people like Kardelj and Kidrič.  I'm guessing that they knew why they chose the word "narodni" in some cases and "ljudski" in other. Zocky | picture popups 11:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: In Serbian-Croatian, narodni can mean both people's and national, but in Slovene, there are two terms: narodni means national, and ljudski people's. So frequently, the meaning of Yugoslav terms could be seen from the official Slovene translation. In Slovene, the name of the order red narodnega heroja, which means Order of the National Hero, not People's Hero. I thus suggest the article be moved from Order of the People's Hero to Order of the National Hero. Viator slovenicus (talk) 18:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

text: I have to disagree (and confirm Viator's and Zocky's opinion). The term in Slovene is Ljudska republika, that's why it is translated as 'People's Republic'. If it were Narodna republika, it would be translated as 'National Republic'. --Eleassar my talk 15:45, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Serbo-Croatian usage was prevalent in Yugoslavia and "People's" English translation is appropriate for such a term from communism; I don't think the variation in Slovene usage is critical enough to change the English translation of the term. The Slovenian usage can be forked if there's precedent - for example if it's not just a legacy term primarily associated with Yugoslavia. But if it is, then it should be consistent with the others. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:18, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Slovenian narod(-) corresponds to a variety of English translations: narod 'nation, people', narodna banka 'national bank', narodna pesem 'folk song', narodopisje 'ethnography'. There's not a strict 1:1 translation equivalent. I personally like the sound of people's hero for the concept it represents, but I can't make a more concrete argument for it in preference to national hero. However, I think Joy makes a good point here; the translation should probably be based on the Serbo-Croatian term regardless of the semantics of the Slovenian. Doremo (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Folk song is 'ljudska pesem' in Slovene - 'narodna pesem' is wider, see :sl:Slovenska glasba (see also e.g.  : folk culture - 'ljudska kultura'). The same applies to ethnography - 'narodopisje' (treats the national whole). Other examples illustrate what has been said above (narod - nation). As regards this specific case, in reliable sources, both translations (People's Hero and National Hero) have been used. I think this is similar to the British vs. American English variation, only this time in the context of South Slavic languages. Therefore, my proposal is to use the most common form for the title of this article, mention both translations in the lead, and use the language-specific form for national-specific articles (for example, Tomb of the National Heroes, Ljubljana). --Eleassar my talk 08:41, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The Slovenian link above (for any editors here that don't read the language) indicates that a narodna pesem is a folk song known across the ethnic territory, whereas a ljudska pesem is a folk song limited to part of the ethnic territory. (In neither case would one use the translation national song; both are folk songs. In any case, the distinction is rather artificial, based on published sources). Otherwise people is quite a typical synonym for nation in English (e.g., Peoples of Europe), so it's difficult or impossible to draw a distinction between the two English terms based purely on denotative semantics. Doremo (talk) 10:41, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

text: According to , there actually is a difference between the terms 'people' and 'nation': "A free nation is one not subject to a foreign government. A people is free when all the citizens can participate in a certain measure in public affairs." I think what was meant with the original name was the 'nation' (Slovene or some other Yugoslav nation as opposed to the German oppressor), not the 'people' (the citizens). In the beginning, the order was given to the fallen Partisans and organisers of the National Liberation Struggle. Among the Slovenes, the first who received it was Stanko "Daki" Semič, who got it on 10 October 1943, because he showed "through the two and a half years of the national liberation struggle an exceptional courage and the despise of death in all fights against the occupying forces." (pg. 25). --Eleassar my talk 09:11, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: English usage varies with regard to synonymy (compare: close synonym, synonym, synonym, sometimes synonym). I'm not saying that national is wrong, but I am saying that people's isn't wrong. Denotatively, it's difficult or impossible to draw a distinction between the two English terms. Connotatively, I prefer people's in this case. But, as Joy already indicated above, I also agree that the Serbo-Croatian should be the primary source for the English term. If Slovene could equate SCr. Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija with Sln. Jugoslovanska ljudska armada, and could happily refer to either Prekmurske narodne pesmi or Prekmurske ljudske pesmi, then there's obviously some latitude in usage, especially when we also see the Slovenian terms occasionally used as synonyms (e.g., for ethnology, folk songs, language, dialects, dance), or when the SSKJ entry reads "národen  -dna -o prid. ... 3. ljudski ...". Doremo (talk) 12:59, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

text: You're really going to make everyone go through an RM? I don't like it much myself but "Order of the National Hero" is about three times more common according to my research . Plus its consistent in general with the English translation of the adjective "narodno" in this context (National Liberation War, National Liberation Army of Y., etc..), with the JNA being a notable exception. I don't like it because the communists, unlike pre-war Yugoslavia, didn't subscribe to the idea of one Yugoslav nation - and made that one of their key propaganda points ("our nations and nationalities", "long live the fighting unity of the Yugoslav nations", etc.). Still, I defer to sources and follow policy even if its not to my liking, and I do appreciate consistency. -- Director (talk) 11:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Research is as research does. For example, I get more people's than national when I filter for only .uk sites: , . I agree with Joy; I don't see any consensus for a move. Doremo (talk) 12:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You filtered only .uk sites... how is that in any way a relevant search? -- Director (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Filtering for .uk increases the odds that the results were written by a native English speaker (which is desirable in terms of typical English usage). Filtering for .edu (people's:national = 3:0) or .us (people's:national = 8:4) would have a similar effect. Doremo (talk) 13:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Whenever a Google test isn't to someone's liking there are always excuses, "refinements" etc.. In English-language publications "National" is more prevalent. Bottom line. -- Director (talk) 17:05, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

text: I'm fine with both options. --Eleassar my talk 21:37, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

text:  So what's the criterion by which you decide that the Yugoslav People's Army is an exception that doesn't establish a precedent, and that you don't need to use WP:RM on a move that we already discussed as vaguelly controversial? :) Because there's plenty of analogy with the People's Republic of China (sic) and similar topics, I don't think this can be a clear cut case. In addition, because the phrase "Order of the National Hero" is even more generic, the discussion would have to examine yet another matter, disambiguation - whether it's primary topic or namespace pollution. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Its not a clear-cut case. If a clear-cut case is 100% certainty, then this is probably 60% in favor of "National". Still - its more accurate than the 40% option. -- Director (talk) 08:43, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: G'day Director, if you want to go there, an RM sounds appropriate. Peacemaker67  (send... over) 08:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly appears so. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time. -- Director (talk) 09:02, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
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