Talk:Super Smash Bros./Archive 11

message: Although I think the usage of  is more appropriate than the usage of , let's X out the Melee characters whose existence in Brawl has not been confirmed in any way: Mewtwo, Pichu, Roy, and Dr. Mario.  Let's keep the Sheik footnote where it is right now, since in the Legend of Zelda series, Sheik is, in fact, a transformation of Zelda.  Then, let's check that Young Link appears in Brawl, and, in the effort of avoiding vandalism, make a footnote that states that, in the Japanese-localized version, Young Link is referred to as Toon Link.  Once either the DOJO!! confirms Young Link or the North American version of SSBB comes out, we can change the table to include Toon Link if necessary.  Any disagreements? oobugtalk/contrib 21:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I approve. Wikipedian06 (talk) 21:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: To clarify: my intention is to check Young Link, and just make a footnote about the "Toon Link" name.  I agree that they are essentially the same character. oobugtalk/contrib 21:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I agree. However, what if he is called Toon Link is the localised version too? Because even in this case he is still virtually Young Link, just under a different name in Brawl. SuperLink9 (talk) 22:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If he is, then we can modify the table to reflect this information once it's been revealed.  The page isn't going to be protected forever, after all! (hopefully) oobugtalk/contrib 22:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I suggest this - The table should be updated with a  for Young Link in Brawl for now, but a footnote should be included saying that as far as we know, he is named Toon Link in the Japanese version of Brawl. Then if he is named Toon Link in the localised versions too, the  should remain on Young Link, except change to footnote to say simply "In Super Smash Bros Brawl, Young Link takes on his appearance from Wind Waker and is named "Toon Link".SuperLink9 (talk) 22:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Should I holler for an admin? Coreycubed (talk) 22:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, please, it'd be great to finally finish the Brawl roster! SuperLink9 (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree. In Japanese, the names are unique from each other. In fact, the Nintendopower.co.uk page linked higher up calls him "Wind Waker Link" and not "Young Link" which in Japanese is  which is different than . I'd be willing to impliment the table above, but to make sure that the Pinkmin note is kept as is the separation of Toon and Young Links.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Huh? Lucario / Mewtwo? That's a big stretch. Link is Link is Link. It's just an art change. Also, Toon refers to his appearance, not his age. Also, it's a stretch to say that any of the characters is the same between games by that logic, and you'd be mad to start to try to figure out SSB / Nintendoverse continuity... Coreycubed (talk) 22:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we get the table updated and worry about specifics later?  Either the North American release or the DOJO!! will reveal Young/Toon Link's North American name, at which point we'll be able to clearly define which name to use.  Right now, all of this debate is, and has been, very fruitless. oobugtalk/contrib 22:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The way I see it, Toon Link is just Young Link with another name and art style! Think of it this way - If Link was renamed "Adult Link" in Brawl, and given his TP look, would that certify him as a seperate character from the "Link" characters in both previous games?SuperLink9 (talk) 22:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to comment on a hypothetical situation that is already proven untrue. "Link is Link is Link". By that logic, Toon Link, Young Link, and Adult Link should all just be named Link, right? Of course not, that's not how they're named. It doesn't matter what the name implies. If the name is different, the character is different.If the English version names him Young Link, there should either be two Young Links (as ridiculous as it sounds) or a footnote showing that they're seperate characters in Japan.Satoryu (talk) 22:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've implimented the table as listed above, although changing the X's under the Brawl column to ?, replacing the footnote for Pikmin, designating The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker for Toon Link's game, and adding minor details that were shown in the last update in the footnotes (choosing whether or not to start with Sheik or which Pokémon).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Well it is'nt how you see it is it? It is how Nintendo sees it, if they blanteted out say, "toon link is the same as young link" then we would check young/toon link, but as we have always done in these times, we go with offical word young ang toon link seprate.→041744 22:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is just a graphical update. Young Link is 'Toon Link. It is just that the young link in PH and WW is quite different from the one in OoT, and he has a more cartoon appearance, hence the name 'Toon Link. Let's just add it now, and maybe when he is released on the DOJO!! this dispute will be settled. Epass (talk) 22:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The thing is, he probably will be named Toon Link in the localised version, but this doesn't change the "fact" that they are the same character, and if you ask me it would look strange if the table features Young Link AND Toon Link as 2 seperate characters, with a footnote at Toon Link saying "He's exactly the same as Young Link, but has a different name, go figure". If they're really going to be seperated, there should at least be a Toon Link footnote mentioning that he is the same as Young Link, or that he essentially "replaces" Young Link. Actually, forget all that, if he appears on the Dojo and he's classed "Veteran" even though his name is different, that pretty much decides that he is "Young Link" anyway. SuperLink9 (talk) 22:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Falco and Ganondorf are known to have moves unique from their old selves too, but they are still the same characters. Like I said before, if/when Toon Link is put on the Dojo, we will know if he is a veteran or a newcomer. Would having a footnote anyway (saying he could possibly be Young Link) be a good idea?SuperLink9 (talk) 23:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, the issue of the name comes up. In Japanese, it is "Toon Link" and the only English language source calls him "Wind Waker Link." None of which is the same as the Japanese or English names for Young Link. If it would suffice, a footnote could be placed instead of the question mark, stating "In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, a similar character named Toon/Wind Waker Link is a playable character." Is that agreeable?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 23:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess so, it probably will be a few months until we get him on the Dojo, so we won't be able to find out if he's classed as a newcomer or a veteran for some time yet. Also, I would put  next to the other four characters, since a screenshot revealed at the same time as Wolf apparantly said all the characters had been unlocked. I don't know any official sources though, does anyone else? SuperLink9 (talk) 23:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The citation attributed to Nintendo Power incorrect.  The magazine is actually Official Nintendo Magazine, an entirely separate publication.  Also, I'm not convinced that the citation is even relevant.  Remember that Super Smash Bros. Brawl is not being developed by Nintendo, but by a Second Party.  OFM is free to use whatever moniker they want for a character in Brawl; it doesn't make it the character's official name.  Also, I don't think the footnote about Captain Olimar and his use of Pikmin is relevant to the article. Wikipedia is not a strategy guide, and the fact that Olimar can't perform certain attacks without his Pikmin is not important to the article; neither is the fact that Popo of the Ice Climbers can't perform certain attacks (Up + B) without Nana in Melee. oobugtalk/contrib 00:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

text: It's definitely the full roster, there are screenshots of it, and a screenshot that apparantly translated as "all the characters have been unlocked, now the real fight begins" or something along those lines. SuperLink9 (talk) 14:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Here's what I propose:

message: The original translation of the term 大乱闘 was done by Urutapu, he translated it to "Great Battle". This was then changed to "Great Fray" by Apostrophe who probably got it from the Animelab Dictionary. I didn't see any other dictionary where the term is translated as "fray".
I tackle this old translation as I think "Great Melee" is a much more accurate description of the term. 乱闘 describes a scuffle rather than a full-blown combat, for example happening when a referee decision at a sports match is disputed by the players. The Japanese Wikipedia page of 乱闘 also says so. Prime Blue (talk) 20:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not the only source for the "fray"-translation. One of the earliest translations of the term related to the Smash Bros. series might be here, by Stutz. Most of the sources from other sites probably just adopted the "fray" after it emerged on Wikipedia. I used two of the more accurate German online dictionaries to verify the translation. Both list "melee" as the most accurate translation. I also think that "melee" is a mild form of battle, while a "brawl" or "fray" is more rough. But I'm not a native English speaker, so feel free to correct me on that. Prime Blue (talk) 21:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The whole series is called like that. Prime Blue (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah.  I don't think my Japanese font is working, so I couldn't tell.  Carry on – don't mind me. oobugtalk/contrib 21:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And he's gone and updated all the Nihongo-title templates with the new translation; if his mastery of Japanese is anything like his English (and he's not even a native speaker!), I trust the change. Coreycubed (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I've seen it translated as both "great" and "big" in various locations; I'm specifically thinking of Dai Sentai Goggle V and Gosei Sentai Dairanger, though the latter admittedly uses ダイ instead of 大. Arrowned (talk) 01:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah...the first one would mean great and the second one big. --haha169 (talk) 04:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The first one isn't exactly a legit translatable word actually; the series it came from used it more like a proper noun. Arrowned (talk) 05:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 大 means both. Pick one that looks best.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest to keep "great" as people are more familiar with it and for the fact that it sounds better (at least  to a few people participating in this discussion). There's another translation of the term by separating it into 大乱 and 闘, that way it means "Great Rebellion Battle" or "Civil War Battle". Nintendo probably choose the title intentionally as it's a play on words alluding to both aspects of Smash Bros.: Otherwise - mostly - peaceful characters getting into a fight and engaging in close combat. Prime Blue (talk) 07:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation of 大乱闘

message: I don't think the footnote about Captain Olimar and his use of Pikmin is relevant to the article. Wikipedia is not a strategy guide, and the fact that Olimar can't perform certain attacks without his Pikmin is not important to the article, just like the fact that Popo of the Ice Climbers can't perform certain attacks (Up + B) without Nana in Melee.  I'd like to get rid of it; does everyone concur? oobugtalk/contrib 18:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly.  I'm willing to put the citation inside the table, alongside the "Pikmin & Olimar" character listing, but the footnote is unnecessary and cluttersome. oobugtalk/contrib 18:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Don't. An hour is not NEARLY long enough. Give it a day the least. I'm telling you this becuase I've made this mistake in the past. I do agree that the note isn't doing much though.Satoryu (talk) 19:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can wait for awhile longer.  However I had mentioned this change higher on the talk page a couple of days ago, and received basically no response.  I based my action on my observation that nobody seems to mind whether the section is deleted.  Nevertheless, I'm perfectly content to wait.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oobug (talk • contribs) 19:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You shouldn't assume like that. Just because people aren't talking doesn't mean they don't care.Satoryu (talk) 19:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, but an outsider could be heavily confused. They could ask 'Wow, I get to play as the individual Pikmin too?' I think the footnote should be put back. It's not like we're adding movesets, just that they need each other to function at all. Oubliette (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Captain Olimar footnote 

message: This article has no mention of him whatsoever...since that last edit by Heavetheclay. I've been pondering, but I don't know how to fit his name in without adding an awkward sentence. Could someone help? --haha169 (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Masahiro Sakurai

message: Nintendo UK list Sora Ltd. as the developer for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, shouldn't this be added to the article? - Addit (talk) 01:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sora confirmed as developer for SSBB

message: I don't think the character list really belongs in the article. Wikipedia is not a game guide, nor a place for unencyclopedic laundry lists. The Smash Bros. (series) page should present an overview of the franchise, not list every single detail. Wikipedian06 (talk) 07:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The page doesn't list every single detail and I believe that the list helps add to an over view of the series by informing the reader of characters encounted in it. I would expect info on the characters from a game or series that is relevant when searching for it on wikipedia eg. Any user who looked up the X-Files would expect to find out who the main characters are either on the X-Files page or on an page for characters from the X-Files or individual character pages. The list simply tells you the characters and telling you something as simple as that I don't believe is game guide material, the only other way to do it would be too write a line or paragraph on each character which would probably take up more room, be more game guide like and be harder to get all the info just by looking at it. Also the fact that the character individual pages or sections in a characters list page tell you about their bit in Super Smash Bros. would make it redundant to have anymore info on this page. In short the list is fine as it is. The Light6 (talk) 11:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The main point of Super Smash Bros is that it features an ensemble of characters from many different games, so it would be logical to list in some way which characters are represented in each Smash Bros game. Not doing so would be ignoring vital information about the game series. As The Light6 pointed out, a table is the most efficient way of doing this. -IG-64 (talk) 11:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I echo IG-64.  Because the essence of the Smash Bros. series is one of multi-series conglomeration, it's entirely relevant to provide a list of the characters from all the different series, providing links to their own articles and informing the user of the games in which each character is playable.  To do this in paragraph format would be unsightly, wordy, and inconvenient. oobugtalk/contrib 17:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with Oobug, IG-64, and The Light6.  If it were a table just naming the characters and their SSBB supers, I'd cry foul.  However, the table names the characters as well as what series/games they hail from to allow someone to do some more reading on a certain character. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 20:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laundry list of characters 

message: Why is this considered a fighting game series exactly? Doesn't it belong in the "beat em' up" category? Streets of Rage is considered a beat em' up, why not Smash Brothers?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.77.245 (talk) 20:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it *is* a fighting game.  The stages are small (and if they scroll, it's a forced scroll), you generally do not fight waves of baddies who want to rip out your heart to use as a piece of gum (unless you're playing Brawl's Subspace Emissary or Adventure mode), and there is PvP.  Beat-'em-ups are voluntary-scroll, you have to fight wave after wave of baddies as if from a clown car, and there is only PvM. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 20:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I reiterate the two points you missed:  You generally do not fight waves of baddies, and there is player-vs.-player. Beat-'em-ups do not generally feature a separate PvP mode, if at all; it's almost always co-op Player-vs.-Monster. Judge based on the whole game, and not two of its minor facets (for that's all the one-player modes are; facets of a multiplayer game). -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 05:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Nintendo.com claims it's a fighting game.  We go by what they say.  The Metroid Prime articles are good examples of precedents. Arrowned (talk) 05:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

text: They actually never did. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 05:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Metroid Prime is a first person adventure title. Arrowned (talk) 05:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

text: You're making no sense (FPA ≠ FPS).  Further, as I have stated, you are neglecting the largest part of the game - PvP. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 05:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Subspace Emissary can be considered a beat 'em up, But Subspace Emissary isn't all there is to Brawl. It's a game within a game. And the host game is a fighting game.Satoryu (talk) 06:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't think we're going to get anywhere making a V-Dash argument. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 06:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  In my opinion, Subspace Emissary is only one mode, while ALL the others are more of the fighting genre. -- User:MKalv  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.85.237 (talk) 14:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're absolutely right.Satoryu (talk) 14:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fighting game??

message: I saw how it said, "Gray cells denote unlockable characters". I didn't see any "gray cells", it might be because I am color-blind, but could someone look into this. Thanks.AlexanderLD (talk) 20:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They're there. It's either your monitor or your color-blindness. -Sukecchi (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I see it too. Go check it at your school or work computer. If you still don't see it, then it might be your color-blindness. --haha169 (talk) 00:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It's a bit too strong. Could you perhaps make it a more subtle softer blue? 86.31.244.14 (talk) 10:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Gray Cells

message: I'm pretty much aware that R.O.B. is considered to be from the Robot Series: Gyromite and Stack Up. Could we put instead of NES accessory, Robot and put a link to either Gyromite or Stack Up? I'm going to change that now but if you have any objections, please change it. Thanksdeecee (talk) 10:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You discuss things before doing them. Listing him as an NES Accessory is fine. Because's that is what he is. -Sukecchi (talk) 16:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: R.O.B's series

message: Why is Princess Daisy in the list of characters, while being marked with 3 X's? If she wasn't in the previous two games and hasn't been confirmed for this last one, why have her on the list? Has there been some indication she might be in? Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 16:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Must be a mistake or vandalism in the template. It's fixed now. -Sukecchi (talk) 16:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Princess Daisy? 

message: BTW, isn't it about time we archive? I've done it before, but I made a seemingly stupid mistake, in which I got accused for vandalism. Could someone with more experience in the art of archiving archive this entire page? It's getting quite long. --haha169 (talk) 01:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive