Talk:Parenthetical referencing/Archive 2

message: Someone took out all my recent changes without bothering to look for value -- the reverter even reverted to grammatical errors and obvious contradictions. I had provided a citation for my changes. The reverter provided no citations for the reversion. 
So I'm putting it all back, with a few additional changes. And I'm providing explanations of why I think the reverter is incorrect, right here.
1. I had already provided a citation for the disagreement between Harvard and Chicago over preferences in the sciences and social sciences. This is important to include because many people read the Chicago Manual, and our Article had previously pointed to the Chicago Manual page that describes the contrary-to-Harvard view. So it's important to address this issue and not leave the reader wondering what's going on (sciences? social sciences? humanities?).
2. Notwithstanding the reverter's preference, in Harvard referencing, a citation is not placed after the sentence. It is placed before the period.
3. If a writer were to say "Pat believes A, but Lee believes B", we would obviously want the citations to look like "Pat believes A (D'Souza 1998), but Lee believes B (Wong 1999)". In other words, citations sometimes need to be placed at the end of a phrase, not at the end of a sentence.
4. It's confusing if we don't give a good name to the thing in the text and a (different) good name to the thing at the bottom of the text. The Chicago Manual calls the first thing the citation, the second the reference. Unless someone knows of a better terminology, we should go with that.
5. Anyone who starts using Harvard referencing is going to wonder "what if I want to make a comment on the work I am citing?", or "what if I want my text to point not just to the work but to a longer quote from the work"? Think this is not an important issue? Then see the impressive amount of confusion and argument, even bad feeling, about footnotes and citations in the Discussion. We could have avoided that by providing a short explanation in the Article.
And consider that the confusion and argument in the Discussion come only from those who care enough and are articulate enough to express their knowledge, opinions, and questions. Wikipedia rule of thumb is that there were 100 times more people who just got confused and silently gave up.
To have a good article, we need to head off this confusion. Therefore we need to discuss the relation between citations and footnotes.
6. Anyone who doesn't like what the article now says about References and Bibliography needs to clear up the ambiguity, not to delete discussion of it. 
7. Notwithstanding the reverter's preference, "history" does not require footnotes. Neither do historians. It must be history professors who do that, collectively, hence "history departments".
8. Do people still write manuscripts? I thought they were all at least typescripts now. Many readers of this Article will be wondering about Harvard referencing in Wikipedia. We need to serve those readers especially. (Is there some other article about that? If so, why don't we point to it?) And notwithstanding the reverter's preference, we need to discuess social science documents that are not manuscripts and not typescripts and not theses (say, a journal article or book). 
9. It's useful to give the name (documentary-note) of the major competing system, not just the names of some relatively obscure alternatives such as the Vancouver system.
10. Wikipedia Manual of Style says it should be "Works cited", not "Works Cited".
11. The citation in parentheses should not be followed by the year -- though that's what the reverter wants this Article to say. Instead, the citation followed by the year is placed in parentheses!
12. Elsewhere in this article we say that the convention for citations with page numbers is "(Smith 2005: 73)". The reverter reverted to using "p.". Let's be consistent! Sure, we don't have to give all the rules at the top of the Article, but it would be good not to give a rule incorrectly.
13. A page number is insufficient when the writer is citing more than one page. Let's help the readers out by telling them what to do in such a case. And let's show them how to use an en-dash, so they won't have to go chasing around the Wikipedia Manual of Style to find out how to specify a page range. 
14. Harvard referencing does, as I pointed out, specify the format of the reference. Let's not leave readers ignorant of this aspect of Harvard referencing. Teacher will flunk them for this too!
15. Despite the reverter's preference, we can stop calling it "the Harvard referencing system" after a while and just call it "Harvard referencing".
16. Wikipedia is so good at hyperlinking, it's important to discuss the fact that Wikipedia does not hyperlink citation to reference. Apparently Wikipedia does not provide special tools for hyperlinking the citation to the reference, nor, apparently, do we recommend that the writer hyperlink the citation to the reference.
TH 05:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  reasons for changing the top section 

message: I removed the UGA reference, because both the Flinders reference and the OSU reference appear to be more complete and free of inconsistency. 
I added the University of Chicago reference, because everybody else seems to refer to U of C, and I thought it would be good to go to the horse's mouth. 
I used the OSU style in the text of the document (rules and examples), which leaves the text inconsistent with the References (more Flinders-ish). 
It would be good to settle on one dialect as the "best" or the most completely explained or the most commmonly used. Possibly we would mention one or two competing dialects. Speaking of dialects, I see that some Liverpool university wants you to put author names in all caps (!) in the Reference section, and end each reference without punctuation. 
I plan to look around a bit, and if I don't find any reason not to, soon I will apply the U of C dialect throughout the article for consistency. 
TH 16:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  changing author-date references cited; settling on a dialect of author-date 

message: There are two types of footnotes (if the author is not using author-date): 
One type I call a pointer note. It points to a bare citation of a work. The author of the article has not said anything additional about the work and has not quoted the work more fully. 
The other I call a discursive note. (A discussion must be between two or more people. A discursion can be made by just one person.) The author has remarked on the work, or has provided a longer quote. Or perhaps the author has not referred to a work at all but is just giving a personal opinion (verboten in Wikipedia) or is providing a longer explanation of a minor detail. 
These two types of footnotes are very different. If an author uses author-date, the entire job of pointer notes must be taken over by the author-date system, and none of the job of discursive notes can be taken over by author-date. 
It's important for anyone comparing author-date with documentary-note to understand these differences, because otherwise they will not understand what should be different, and what footnotes are still needed for, in author-date. Hence all the confusion and people talking past one another (for lack of understanding the two types of notes) in the Talk pages of HR and of WP:HR. 
It is much easier to talk about these two types of notes if we give them names. If there are better names than the ones I am using, I would be glad to hear them. For example, ask an expert "what kind of footnotes should or can be converted, and what kind must or may be retained, if I switch a document from documentary-note to author-date? and do the things you are describing have names?" 
As it is, I use these names only on the Talk pages, not on the Article pages. 
TH 20:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  two types of footnotes in documentary-note: pointer notes and discursion notes. one type in author-date 

message: Notes that discursive notes had already been discussed both at the top of the article, and in the Advantages and disadvanteges section. 
TH 20:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  discursive notes 

message: Toohoo, thanks for adding all that material. I've tidied some sections, and changed the citations to footnotes, which is the most commonly used system at WP, and the one that was used before. (They shouldn't be changed from one to the other.) Also, we do link our references, because our articles are aimed at people reading online. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 07:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: In-universe/out-of-universe

message: I restored the page numbers in the first example because our readers are not babies who can understand only names and years. It's important to give them an explained example early on of the one thing that's most likely to be confusing to them, namely, a page number or a page range in a citation. After reading this example, many readers will be able to understand author-date without much further study, because they will have seen a full example of a citation, the main thing that's different from documentary-note, which they are more familiar with.
I restored the discussion of footnote because otherwise we'll have the kind of tremendous confusion revealed in the Talk page of this article over fundamental differences between footnotes and author-date. I have already explained this issue in Talk. The reverter has a second time reverted my change here, again without giving any explanation for his or her reversion, even though I took the trouble to explain the reason for my change (and am explaning it here again). Read the Talk reverter, and note the terrific waste of argumentation that could have been avoided if the article had simple said "here's what footnotes can and cannot do, here's what author-date can and cannot do". As I already explained. 
TH 16:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't remove the page range. I don't understand your point about footnotes. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why I restored page-range in 1st example, and discussion of footnotes 

message: I restored the pointer to WP:HR because it's necessary to avoid confusion. Otherwise, some readers will come here are wrestle with this page for hours, not realizing there's a special page on HR in WP. Like I did some days ago, because nobody bothered to put a pointer in here to help me. A pointer like you can find, for example, at namespace.
TH 16:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're confusing the encyclopedia with the project space. The two shouldn't be mixed up. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   restored the pointer to WP:HR 

message: 1. Re "Commonwealth ... throughout the world": I provided (and have now restored) a verifiable source, citing all major search engines. Google.com is a reputable source. MSN.com is a reputable source. They publish pages dynamically on the web. Anyone can verify these results. Returns from google.com etc. have more credibility than what the reverter is asking for, which could be one person who once wrote some article in a library journal on the terminology of author-date. 
I wonder if I wrote in some article that 4040 + 303 = 4343, whether the reverter would ask me to cite some mathematician. 
"Galileo was often willing to change his views in accordance with observation, as contrasted with a few notable men who refused even to look through their telescopes at celestial objects for fear of what they might see". 
That quote's from Wikipedia! Now there's a claim that should have a citation. But unless the reverter can explain why the evidence from the major search engines either (a) is not overwhelming or (2) could somehow deceive us, I can't see much difference between the reverter and the "few notable men" in the story. 
:You're engaged in original research. Your search of Google is not a reliable source. Please see WP:NOR. If your claim is correct, someone is likely to have published it somewhere. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't give a full citation so far as I could see. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It's an interesting fact and lead sections are supposed to try to be interesting. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: TH, I appreciate your hard work on this, but it's veering in the direction of a personal essay. Bear in mind that we only publish what other reliable sources have already published. See WP:V. We're not allowed to add our own opinions or assumptions to Wikipedia. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I restored changes re worldwide term, science, Mark because 

message: I changed "at the end" to "near the end", because the References section may easily be followed by a Bibliography or Further reading or External links section, or by a disclaimer, or possibly by sections we have not thought of.
I added "for example" because otherwise a reader could wonder about 2004 or 2006 or 1952. Of course, that is unlikely, so the rule seems a little fussy. However, it's still the rule that good editors follow: examples are always explicitly identified as examples so the reader will always understand the possibility of extending them. 
TH 03:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I inserted "for example" and changed "at" to "near" because ...  

message: ... (a) because I don't think it's good to make readers read the whole general article and then find out in See also that there's a Wikipedia-specific article;
... (b) because it appears to be a Wikipedia convention or rule to place such a pointer at the top of an article. 
So, if anyone wants to revert this change, please first make the corresponding change at AFD, robots, namespace, Style_guide, citation, and all the others that follow this convention or rule.
TH 07:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I restored change re worldwide term because ...  

message: I already explained my reason for putting a page range in the first example. Did I miss someone's compelling counter-argument, or is someone wasting everyone's time here by reverting without even providing the courtesy of a rationale? 
I also explained why it's important to discuss footnotes with author-date, and discuss it early. Did I miss someone's compelling counter-argument? 
Here's another reason we need the page range in the example -- farther down we refer up to the example and mention the page number or page range -- and that doesn't make sense if the example doesn't show a page number or page range. 
And here's yet another reason we need the page range in the example -- most book and journal citations will need to provide a page number or page range. So we fail a large segment of our readership if we don't provide an example with a page range up early in the article, where a reader can glance at it and say "oh yeah, I see" instead of saying "I wonder where they will put the page numbers". 
Did I mention that the page-range example is very easy to understand, but that without an example, very few readers would be able to figure out how to write a page number or range correctly. 
TH 07:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  (I restored example with page-range (and other changes) 

message: Folks,
I am fed up with SlimVirgin's foot dragging, nit picking, and ankle biting, so I just made all the changes I believe are correct. (SlimVirgin is the person who takes a very proprietary attitude toward the article, but never bothered to tell anyone that there are seriously differing variants of author-date! Never bothered to tell anyone how to cite a range of pages! Never bothered to say that a citation often belongs elsewhere than at the end of a sentence! Just 3 examples among many.)
Folks, I apologize if you get caught in the middle. If I accidentally clobber any change you make, please write a note here in Talk and I will restore them for you (or I will talk back!). 
DWaterson, thanks for the link to Vancouver system. I think with the link, we don't need the italics, so I unitalicized the phrase. Please let me know if you disagree. 
TH 08:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop adding your own opinions. Also, why do you keep saying I'm removing the page range from the first example? It's there. Or are you talking about some other example? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: And why won't you link certain references? You have to use our normal format for articles, not one that you think people will print out. Can you explain what you think is wrong with the current version? SlimVirgin (talk) 21:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I fixed many problems 

message: Here are some of the reasons I changed the sections:
:old version has wrong punctuation before page number; see Chicago Manual
:old version has links (blue) in references; there is no such thing in Chicago Manual or other authorities we cite
:old version doesn't mention that newspaper articles should generally not be in references (see Chicago)
:old version says citation is placed "after the sentence" -- misleading at best
:old version formats dates wrong in all book refs (see Chicago)
:old version doesn't show when to put first names before or after surnames
:old version doesn't provide integrated examples (citation and corresponding reference) 
:old version is wrong about use of "&" (see Chicago)
There are more problems than that. Are those not enough?
Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen any citations or reasoning in support of the old version. 
TH 17:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why I changed the section  

message: Folks,
SlimVirgin and Jayjg keep reverting to text that is full of errors. I keep demonstrating the errors by citing accepted manuals of style. 
I keep giving reasons why the changes I make are necessary (I gave 8 reasons for my last change). 
Jayjg and SlimVirgin give no reasons for their reversions. 
Occasionally SlimVirgin asks me a question. I explain the answer politely (unlike some other things I do, which might not be polite), giving references and examples. So far as I can tell, SlimVirgin ignores all the citations and examples I give. He or she never provides a counter-citation or a counter-example. 
Any suggestions?
TH 19:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As a very simple example of what is wrong with your claims; you claim that the old version says citation is placed "after the sentence" -- misleading at best In fact, the old version states A citation is placed wherever appropriate in or after the sentence. You're knocking down strawmen. Jayjg (talk) 19:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I give citations and reasons for changes

message: Folks,
I took the bullets off the examples -- it was looking like we were implying that all references had to be bulleted. 
TH 19:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it didn't look like that at all, and it's hard to read the examples if they're not bulleted. Jayjg (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I removed the bullets from the examples 

message: Folks, 
Here are the reasons for the changes:
*The previous version used the phrase "partial citation". But the recognized citation guides (APA, MLA, Chicago, Mayfield, etc.) do not use that phrase. They use the term citation. 
*The previous version used the phrase "full citation". But the recognized citation guides do not use that phrase. They use the term reference; occasionally bibliography. 
*The terms citation and reference are technical terms with strict definitions in the context of author-date. If we don't make that very clear, readers are likely to be confused. Not only do readers become confused, but writers (of the Article) become confused as well, and then they start using incorrect phrases such as "partial citation", further confusing the readers. 
*As further explanation of the need to emphasize the terms citation and reference, I cite the example of the University of Western Australia, http://www.library.uwa.edu.au/education_training___and___support/guides/how_to_cite_your_sources/citing_your_sources_-_harvard_style
::The Harvard system is made up of two components:
:::Citation: This occurs in the text of your essay or assignment and provides brief details of the author and date of publication.
:::Bibliography: This is a list at the end of an essay or assignment of all references used in the text. It provides details to help readers identify each source.
*A minor point -- the previous version used the verb "collected" without having an agreeing noun. 
*The previous version had an example that used the wrong format for the page number ("p."). I cite Chicago. 
*The previous version had another example that used the wrong format for the page number (":"). I cite Chicago. 
*The previous version provided, near the top, examples (incorrect) of citations, but no example of a reference -- forcing the reader to wait another half a page to find an example of the critical other half of the author-date system. That was sloppy, confusing, and frustrating to readers. 
TH 04:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why I changed top part of article below lead paragraph 

message: Slrubenstein, 
I restored the changes that you had reverted, because you provided no reasons, no citations, for your changes. 
Nor did you refute or counter in the tiniest way the 14-plus reasons and citations that I gave for making the changes I made. TH 15:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My main changes were to restore features you had deleted without valid cause.  Your main changes were to the lay-out: you removed the break between two sections (principles and examples) - I restored the break because breaking the article into subsections makes it easier to read. Also, you removed bullet points which helpmakethe text easier to follow; I restored them.  I did make some other changes to layout: I removed a sentence that refered to different variations because th sentence was unclear (what does "quotations or no quotations" mean exactly?) and since the article focuses on Chicago style, distracting. I created a new section on origins and variants, and a new section on content notes, in order to clean up the introduction. That is, I did not delete material, Ijust moved it into subsections.  This makes the introduction to the article short and clear.  Details belong in the body of the article. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 17:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for doing that. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One question for SLR: was there a reason you chose the Chicago Manual of Style or was that inherited from a previous version? I'm going to remove it temporarily because I don't think the page does follow it. Feel free to restore. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why I restored changes 

message: Folks,
#There is no ampersand (&) in the format defined by the Chicago Manual of Style. 
#We need to provide an example that shows where to place first names. 
#If we don't show examples in pairs (citation and corresponding reference), we put the burden on the reader to put the concepts together. Not good. 
TH 22:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I changed because . . . 

message: Folks,
I deleted the text about Edward Laurens Mark, 1881, BMJ "Mystery dispelled" -- because I found a University of North Texas citation that appears to contradict it. This citation is 18 years more recent than the BMJ citation. 
Has anyone seen the Mark 1881 article? Please show us a sample citation, sample reference.  
Has anyone read the "Mystery dispelled" article? What does it say? What was the "mystery"? How was it "dispelled"?
TH 07:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Toohoo, this is becoming absurd. Almost everything you wanted to change has been changed; Slrubenstein has updated and corrected the version. Please stop reverting. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why I deleted the text about EL Mark, 1881, BMJ "Mystery dispelled" 

message: Folks, I restored my changes that have just bren reverted (2nd time, I think) by SLRubenstein, who give no reasons or citations (either time) for making the reversions, and who did not counter the reasons and citations I provided when I made my changes initially. TH 14:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First, I think Slim's wording in the opening is clearer. Second, I think that people do use the &. If Chicago Manual doesn't, then the solution is to delete the setnence that says this article uses the Chicago Manyual of Style. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 14:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why I restored the changes 

message: Hi Robert, there's likely to be an author or editor. The author/editor of the 5th edition was Bob Duckett, and the previous edition had a named author/editor too. It's published in association with the International Centre for Trade Union Rights (ICTUR), but I wouldn't call them the authors. If I were you, I would leave it without an author and just write:
*Trade Unions of the World. Sixth edition. London, UK: John Harper Publishing in association with the International Centre for Trade Union Rights, 2005. .
:: SlimVirgin (talk) 06:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion

message: Folks,
1. I predict that SlimVirgin will not revert because he (I use the term he as the neutral pronoun) will finally remember that he volunteered to join the Wikipedia Harmonious Editing Club http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harmonious_editing_club, with this purpose:
:These members would bind THEMSELVES to the rule of "you can only revert once".
By the way, at that club, SlimVirgin said:
SlimVirgin I think the decision to self-limit on reverting is a good idea.
(Myself, I have never been a member of that club. I belong to the Provide Reasons and Citations for Your Changes club. I have collected most all of my reasons and citations above in one section for the reader's convenience.)
2. I predict that Slrubenstein will not revert because he will grasp the concept that the article is a descriptive article about a normative system. 
3. Jayjg, I can't predict -- except that if he reverts, I predict that he will be unable to provide any substantive reason for his revert. 
TH 18:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My predictions 

message: Folks,
I renamed Harvard referencing to Author-date reference system. I redirected Harvard referencing to the new title so no links would be broken. 
Here’s why I made the changes: 
When the article was created, it was given a name that is used in only a fairly small area of the world. For lack of a better term, I will call it a ‘’regional name’’. The region I refer to is the Commonwealth countries. 
The regional name is “Harvard referencing”. Authoritative evidence, presented below, shows that over seven times as many people, worldwide, use a different name – “author-date”. It is time for Wikipedia to face up to its worldwide responsibilities; it is time to change the name of the article from the regional name to the name used by seven times as many people throughout the world. 
Actually I think the term “Harvard referencing” is not used throughout the Commonwealth countries. I think it’s used throughout the Commonwealth countries less Canada. But I haven’t researched that issue deeply (See a hint below, in the citation from the University of Toronto). 
As the first piece of evidence in support of changing the name, I cite a document published by a highly reputed authority, google.com: 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22author+date%22+citation+reference&btnG=Google+Search
This document states: 
	"Results ... about 125,000"
As the second piece of evidence I cite another document published by the same authority: 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+OR+%22harvard+reference%22+citation+reference&btnG=Google+Search
This document states:
	"Results ... about 17,000"
These two published documents together demonstrate that over seven times as many web pages worldwide, in the context of citations and references, use the term “author-date” than use either “Harvard referencing” or “Harvard reference”. 
I think it is reasonable to assume that, unless anyone can produce evidence to the contrary, use by persons is roughly proportional to use by web pages. 
Additional evidence comes from another web page published by google.com: 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+%22harvard+university%22&btnG=Search
This published authority shows (on the first page and subsequent pages of the document) that almost every web page that uses the term is a web page in the Commonwealth. 
Interestingly, the first non-Commonwealth web page that appears in the document is http://www.wku.edu/Library/dlps/guides/stylwrit.htm. This page, from Western Kentucky University, does mention “Harvard” – just once. Aside from that one mention of “Harvard”, the document uses the term “author-date” exclusively. And the sole mention of “Harvard” is a reference to the University of Western Australia (it is a pointer to UWA’s citation guidelines). This document provides further demonstration that the term “Harvard referencing” is used very rarely outside Commonwealth Countries, excluding Canada. 
What about Harvard University itself? That’s where author-date was developed, in the 1950s and 1960s. Surely if any institution outside the Commonwealth uses the term “Harvard Referencing”, it would be Harvard University. 
Therefore I cite another document published by Google: 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+%22harvard+university%22+site%3Aharvard.edu&btnG=Search
This document states:
Your search - "harvard referencing" "harvard university" site:harvard.edu - did not match any documents. 
This evidence demonstrates that even Harvard University doesn't call the author-date system “Harvard referencing”. 
Perhaps it was too restrictive to include the phrase “Harvard University” in the last citation. Let’s look for any mention of “Harvard referencing” that comes from Harvard University, even if it doesn’t mention “Harvard University”. 
Therefore I cite the document 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+site%3Aharvard.edu&btnG=Search
The document states that there is one web page at Harvard University that mentions “Harvard referencing”. But if we follow the citation, we see that it leads to this document:
http://lists.hmdc.harvard.edu/lists/apsa_itp/2006_03/pdfEFQQA6DOCI.pdf
and if we examine that document, we see that the author uses the word "organisational" and the phrase "14 June 2006". Those UK-style usages demonstrate that this document was created by a Commonwealther. (The document is an announcement of an international symposium organized by the Commonwealther under the auspices of Harvard University.) 
Let’s examine a published authority other than google.com. 
The primary reference in the article we are discussing is The Chicago Manual of Style. This reference was chosen as the primary reference because so many other citation authorities refer to Chicago as the ultimate authority concerning the citation system we are discussing. There is an online version of Chicago – The Chicago Manual of Style Online. 
What does The Chicago Manual of Style Online have to say about "Harvard referencing"? 
I cite the index of The Chicago Manual of Style Online as not mentioning the term "Harvard referencing".  
I cite the table of contents of The Chicago Manual of Style Online as never once mentioning "Harvard referencing". 
Let’s look at other published authorities. I cite the University of Toronto’s citation guide, http://www.utoronto.ca/writing/document.html, as always using the term “author-date” and never once mentioning "Harvard referencing". 
I cite the University of Maryland’s "Citation Systems and Style Manuals", http://www.lib.umd.edu/guides/style_manuals.html, as always using the term “author-date” and never once mentioning "Harvard referencing". 
The Mayfield Handbook of Technical and Scientific Writing is a joint project of MIT and Microsoft Corporation. Mayfield’s online citation guide includes comprehensive guides to five citation formats:
American Psychological Association (APA) Author-Date Style
Modern Language Association (MLA) Author-Page Style
Chicago Manual of Style (CMS) Note Citations
Council of Biology Editors (CBE) Citation-Sequence System
IEEE Citation-Sequence System
I cite ethe index of The Mayfield Handbook as never once mentioning “Harvard referencing”. 
I cite the table of contents of The Mayfield Handbook as never once mentioning “Harvard referencing”. 
Let’s look at printed authorities:
I cite the Chicago Manual of Style (printed version): the index, which is 76 pages long, has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite Turabian’s A Manual for Writers: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the MLA Handbook: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the MLA Style Manual: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”. 
I cite John Bruce Howell’s Style Manuals of the English-Speaking World: A Guide: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”. 
I cite Webster’s Standard American Style Manual: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”. 
I did not cherry-pick the citations above. On the contrary, every citation authority I investigated, online or printed, confirmed the evidence discussed above. I did not find and discard authorities who did not confirm the idea that the term “Harvard referencing” is regional. This means that I could, probably with ease, produce additional authorities (outside the Commonwealth countries less Canada) that use the term “author-date” and do not use the term “Harvard referencing”. I have not done so because, at this time, I think it’s enough for me to cite google.com, The Chicago Manual of Style, The University of Toronto, The University of Maryland, the MIT-Microsoft Mayfield Handbook, the APA Manual, Turabian, the MLA Handbook, the MLA Style Manual, Howell, and Webster’s. 
There is no need to break any links – we preserve the value of links by redirecting the regional term “Harvard referencing” to the worldwide term “author-date”. There is no need to ban the term “Harvard referencing” – we can support the term by redirection, and we can define it properly as a regional synonym for “author-date”.
TH 19:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: T00h00's posts to Talk:Author-date reference system

message: Folks,
1. I predict that SlimVirgin will not revert because he (I use the term he as the neutral pronoun) will finally remember that he volunteered to join the Wikipedia Harmonious Editing Club http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harmonious_editing_club, with this purpose:
:These members would bind THEMSELVES to the rule of "you can only revert once".
By the way, at that club, SlimVirgin said:
SlimVirgin I think the decision to self-limit on reverting is a good idea.
(Myself, I have never been a member of that club. I belong to the Provide Reasons and Citations for Your Changes club. I have collected most all of my reasons and citations above in one section for the reader's convenience.)
2. I predict that Slrubenstein will not revert because he will grasp the concept that the article is a descriptive article about a normative system. 
3. Jayjg, I can't predict -- except that if he reverts, I predict that he will be unable to provide any substantive reason for his revert. 
TH 18:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My predictions 

message: Folks,
I wanted to repeat my invitation to anyone who dislikes the reliance on Chicago Manual of Style in this article:
:You can do something useful -- ... Find out what the major alternative is to Chicago. Write a section about that alternative -- exactly what are the major rules? Please add clarity, information, and authority, not confusion and unhelpfulness and “I think” and “some people”.
By the way, I am not from Chicago, never went to the University of Chicago, have no connection to Chicago. Is there a more-respected authority? Then read my documentation above, and document the respect of the authority you prefer. 
TH 21:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please -- add value -- cite other authorities -- WITH CLARITY 

message: T00h00 would like to change the title from Harvard referencing to Author-date citation system. I don't know which is more common. Google doesn't help much:
*"Harvard referencing": 61,000 (774 unique hits);
*"Harvard reference": 32,600 (529 unique);
*"Harvard system": 110,000 (200 unique);
*"author-date": 1.5 million (798 unique);
*"author-date" without the word "Harvard": 68,700 (757 unique)
*"Harvard referencing" without the phrase "author-date": 56,000 (769 unique)
Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing the title

message: Another example --
If you go to Newcastle Law School, http://www.ncl.ac.uk and do a keyword search for "Harvard system", it will take you to a page http://www.ncl.ac.uk/nuls/lectures/legwrit/app2.htm that says:
:The author date system (also known as the Harvard system) is widely used in social sciences.
I have not yet found a non-UK educational site that gives prominence to the term Harvard referencing, but I can find UK sites that give prominence to the term author-date. 
---
And all of Canada? --
I have previously shown evidence that U Toronto uses "author-date". What about U Calgary (which I chose at random)? 
google: harvard.reference  OR harvard.referencing ucalgary.ca citation reference -> 3
google: author-date ucalgary.ca citation reference -> 59
So it appears (I haven't inspected the results for errors or patterns as I usually do) that Calgary prefers author-date by a twenty-to-one margin. 
TH 18:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  more evidence -- author-date is the worldwide preferred term 

message: T00h00 would like to change the title from Harvard referencing to Author-date citation system. I don't know which is more common. Google doesn't help much:
*"Harvard referencing": 61,000 (774 unique hits);
*"Harvard reference": 32,600 (529 unique);
*"Harvard system": 110,000 (200 unique);
*"author-date": 1.5 million (798 unique);
*"author-date" without the word "Harvard": 68,700 (757 unique)
*"Harvard referencing" without the phrase "author-date": 56,000 (769 unique)
Any thoughts from others? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Simplest sollution: keep the title, and create redirects from the others. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 13:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Seconded. └ VodkaJazz / talk ┐ 00:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Against due to the very convincing argument given below and my experiences of academic referencing Turkeyphant 15:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing the title

message: The "simplest solution" claimed just above, even if it were simplest, is irrelevant. Wikipedia:Verifiability calls for correct solutions, not simplest solutions. 
The simplest correct solution is to change the name to the name used worldwide. 
Wikipedia:Verifiability says: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article". 
I have contributed large amounts of evidence (citations from universities and style authorities) for changing that name. SlimVirgin and Slrubenstein have provided no evidence for retaining the old name. 
Wikipedia:Verifiability says: "Adding a personal opinion once is not vandalism". But SlimVirgin has added his or her personal opinion (meaning: opinion unsupported by citations) many times, so what you are doing apparently is vandalism. 
Since this issue is still current, the evidence should not be in the archive, so I am placing here the evidence in favor of the change -- with new items from Newcastle Law School, the University of Calgary, and the University of Calgary Press at the bottom.  
---
When the article was created, it was given a name that is used in only a fairly small area of the world. For lack of a better term, I will call it a ‘’regional name’’. The region I refer to is the Commonwealth countries.
The regional name is “Harvard referencing”. Authoritative evidence, presented below, shows that over seven times as many people, worldwide, use a different name – “author-date”. It is time for Wikipedia to face up to its worldwide responsibilities; it is time to change the name of the article from the regional name to the name used by seven times as many people throughout the world.
Actually I think the term “Harvard referencing” is not used throughout the Commonwealth countries. I think it’s used throughout the Commonwealth countries less Canada. But I haven’t researched that issue deeply (See a hint below, in the citation from the University of Toronto).
Let’s examine what a published authority says about the name.
The primary reference in the article we are discussing is The Chicago Manual of Style. This reference was chosen as the primary reference because so many other citation authorities refer to Chicago as the ultimate authority concerning the citation system we are discussing. There is an online version of Chicago – The Chicago Manual of Style Online.
What does The Chicago Manual of Style Online have to say about "Harvard referencing"?
I cite the index of The Chicago Manual of Style Online as not mentioning the term "Harvard referencing".
I cite the table of contents of The Chicago Manual of Style Online as never once mentioning "Harvard referencing".
Let’s look at other published authorities. I cite the University of Toronto’s citation guide, http://www.utoronto.ca/writing/document.html, as always using the term “author-date” and never once mentioning "Harvard referencing".
I cite the University of Maryland’s "Citation Systems and Style Manuals", http://www.lib.umd.edu/guides/style_manuals.html, as always using the term “author-date” and never once mentioning "Harvard referencing".
The Mayfield Handbook of Technical and Scientific Writing is a joint project of MIT and Microsoft Corporation. Mayfield’s online citation guide includes comprehensive guides to five citation formats:
American Psychological Association (APA) Author-Date Style
Modern Language Association (MLA) Author-Page Style
Chicago Manual of Style (CMS) Note Citations
Council of Biology Editors (CBE) Citation-Sequence System
IEEE Citation-Sequence System
I cite ethe index of The Mayfield Handbook as never once mentioning “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the table of contents of The Mayfield Handbook as never once mentioning “Harvard referencing”.
Let’s look at printed authorities:
I cite the Chicago Manual of Style (printed version): the index, which is 76 pages long, has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite Turabian’s A Manual for Writers: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the MLA Handbook: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the MLA Style Manual: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite John Bruce Howell’s Style Manuals of the English-Speaking World: A Guide: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite Webster’s Standard American Style Manual: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
What about Harvard University itself? That’s where author-date was developed, in the 1950s and 1960s. Surely if any institution outside the Commonwealth uses the term “Harvard Referencing”, it would be Harvard University.
Therefore I cite a document published by google.com:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+%22harvard+university%22+site%3Aharvard.edu&btnG=Search
This document states:
Your search - "harvard referencing" "harvard university" site:harvard.edu - did not match any documents.
This evidence demonstrates that even Harvard University doesn't call the author-date system “Harvard referencing”.
Perhaps it was too restrictive to include the phrase “Harvard University” in the last citation. Let’s look for any mention of “Harvard referencing” that comes from Harvard University, even if it doesn’t mention “Harvard University”.
Therefore I cite the document
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+site%3Aharvard.edu&btnG=Search
The document states that there is one web page at Harvard University that mentions “Harvard referencing”. But if we follow the citation, we see that it leads to this document:
http://lists.hmdc.harvard.edu/lists/apsa_itp/2006_03/pdfEFQQA6DOCI.pdf
and if we examine that document, we see that the author uses the word "organisational" and the phrase "14 June 2006". Those UK-style usages demonstrate that this document was created by a Commonwealther. (The document is an announcement of an international symposium organized by the Commonwealther under the auspices of Harvard University.)
Even Newcastle Law School at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, http://www.ncl.ac.uk/nuls/lectures/legwrit/app2.htm, refers to the system primarily as author-date and secondarily as Harvard: "The author date system (also known as the Harvard system) is widely used in social sciences". In general, we can find Commonwealth countries that use the term "author-date", but we can't find non-Commonwealth countries that use the term "Harvard referencing". 
In Canada, the Univerity of Calgary Press calls the system "author-date": "All books in the natural sciences and most in the social sciences should use the author-date system of citation" (http://www.uofcpress.com/InfoAuthors/Prep10.html). 
The University of Calgary's Information Resources departmennt, in "Citing Electronic and Print Resources", at http://library.ucalgary.ca/subjectpages/business/subjectguides/citingelectronicandprintresources.php, uses the term "author-date" and does not mention "Harvard". 
Other evidence comes from a document published by a highly reputed authority, google.com:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22author+date%22+citation+reference&btnG=Google+Search
This document states:
"Results ... about 125,000"
As the second piece of evidence I cite another document published by the same authority:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+OR+%22harvard+reference%22+citation+reference&btnG=Google+Search
This document states:
"Results ... about 17,000"
These two published documents together demonstrate that over seven times as many web pages worldwide, in the context of citations and references, use the term “author-date” than use either “Harvard referencing” or “Harvard reference”.
I think it is reasonable to assume that, unless anyone can produce evidence to the contrary, use by persons is roughly proportional to use by web pages.
Additional evidence comes from another web page published by google.com:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+%22harvard+university%22&btnG=Search
This published authority shows (on the first page and subsequent pages of the document) that almost every web page that uses the term is a web page in the Commonwealth.
Interestingly, the first non-Commonwealth web page that appears in the document is http://www.wku.edu/Library/dlps/guides/stylwrit.htm. This page, from Western Kentucky University, does mention “Harvard” – just once. Aside from that one mention of “Harvard”, the document uses the term “author-date” exclusively. And the sole mention of “Harvard” is a reference to the University of Western Australia (it is a pointer to UWA’s citation guidelines). This document provides further demonstration that the term “Harvard referencing” is used very rarely outside Commonwealth Countries, excluding Canada.
I did not cherry-pick the citations above. On the contrary, every citation authority I investigated, online or printed, confirmed the evidence discussed above. I did not find and discard authorities who did not confirm the idea that the term “Harvard referencing” is regional. This means that I could, probably with ease, produce additional authorities (outside the Commonwealth countries less Canada) that use the term “author-date” and do not use the term “Harvard referencing”. I have not done so because, at this time, I think it’s enough for me to cite google.com, The Chicago Manual of Style, The University of Toronto, The University of Maryland, the MIT-Microsoft Mayfield Handbook, the APA Manual, Turabian, the MLA Handbook, the MLA Style Manual, Howell, and 
Webster’s.
There is no need to break any links – we preserve the value of links by redirecting the regional term “Harvard referencing” to the worldwide term “author-date”. There is no need to ban the term “Harvard referencing” – we can support the term by redirection, and we can define it properly as a regional synonym for “author-date”.
TH 20:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From this conclusive argument, there aren't really any more reasons to keep it as it is. Turkeyphant 15:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing the title -- Wikipedia Verifiability

message: I suggest this article is reverted to [], the last edit before the whole edit war started. The most important information was stripped from the article, leaving behind a useless essay - the typical error of answering the question "What is... ?" with an example instead of a definition. └ VodkaJazz / talk ┐ 21:15, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zeroing the Edit War 

message: This article formerly had a name ("Harvard referencing") that is now used only in a relatively small part of the relevant world. So I changed the name to "Author-date System", a term that is (a) used worldwide, (b) used overwhelmingly more than "Harvard referencing" by recognized style authorities, and (c) used much more frequently on respected web resources such as google.com. 
Below is some of the evidence that "Author-date System" is a much better name for the article than "Harvard referencing". 
The name "Harvard referencing" seems to be used mostly in the UK or former Commonwealth countries. Let's examine the terminology that is used by a leading UK style manual. The index of the Oxford Style Manual does not have an entry for "Harvard referencing". The text of the Oxford Manual uses the term author-date. The text of the relevant section does not mention "Harvard referencing". 
The same goes for the printed version of the Chicago Manual of Style. The index of the Chicago Manual, which is 76 pages long, has no entry for “Harvard referencing”. The text of the Chicago Manual uses the term author-date. The text of the relevant section does not mention "Harvard referencing". 
Let's examine the terminology used by our primary reference.
The primary reference in the article we are discussing is The Chicago Manual of Style. This reference was chosen as the primary reference because so many other citation authorities refer to Chicago as the ultimate authority concerning the citation system we are discussing. There is an online version of Chicago – The Chicago Manual of Style Online.
What does The Chicago Manual of Style Online have to say about "Harvard referencing"?
I cite the index of The Chicago Manual of Style Online as not mentioning the term "Harvard referencing".
I cite the table of contents of The Chicago Manual of Style Online as never once mentioning "Harvard referencing".
Let’s look at other published authorities. I cite the University of Toronto’s citation guide, http://www.utoronto.ca/writing/document.html, as always using the term “author-date” and never once mentioning "Harvard referencing".
I cite the University of Maryland’s "Citation Systems and Style Manuals", http://www.lib.umd.edu/guides/style_manuals.html, as always using the term “author-date” and never once mentioning "Harvard referencing".
The Mayfield Handbook of Technical and Scientific Writing is a joint project of MIT and Microsoft Corporation. Mayfield’s online citation guide includes comprehensive guides to five citation formats:
American Psychological Association (APA) Author-Date Style
Modern Language Association (MLA) Author-Page Style
Chicago Manual of Style (CMS) Note Citations
Council of Biology Editors (CBE) Citation-Sequence System
IEEE Citation-Sequence System
I cite ethe index of The Mayfield Handbook as never once mentioning “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the table of contents of The Mayfield Handbook as never once mentioning “Harvard referencing”.
Let’s look at printed authorities:
I cite the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite Turabian’s A Manual for Writers: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the MLA Handbook: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite the MLA Style Manual: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite John Bruce Howell’s Style Manuals of the English-Speaking World: A Guide: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
I cite Webster’s Standard American Style Manual: the index has no entry for “Harvard referencing”.
What about Harvard University itself? That’s where author-date was developed, in the 1950s and 1960s. Surely if any institution outside the Commonwealth uses the term “Harvard Referencing”, it would be Harvard University.
Therefore I cite a document published by google.com:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+%22harvard+university%22+site%3Aharvard.edu&btnG=Search
This document states:
Your search - "harvard referencing" "harvard university" site:harvard.edu - did not match any documents.
This evidence demonstrates that even Harvard University doesn't call the author-date system “Harvard referencing”.
Perhaps it was too restrictive to include the phrase “Harvard University” in the last citation. Let’s look for any mention of “Harvard referencing” that comes from Harvard University, even if it doesn’t mention “Harvard University”.
Therefore I cite the document
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+site%3Aharvard.edu&btnG=Search
The document states that there is one web page at Harvard University that mentions “Harvard referencing”. But if we follow the citation, we see that it leads to this document:
http://lists.hmdc.harvard.edu/lists/apsa_itp/2006_03/pdfEFQQA6DOCI.pdf
and if we examine that document, we see that the author uses the word "organisational" and the phrase "14 June 2006". Those UK-style usages demonstrate that this document was created by a Commonwealther. (The document is an announcement of an international symposium organized by the Commonwealther under the auspices of Harvard University.)
Even Newcastle Law School at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, http://www.ncl.ac.uk/nuls/lectures/legwrit/app2.htm, refers to the system primarily as author-date and secondarily as Harvard: "The author date system (also known as the Harvard system) is widely used in social sciences". In general, we can find Commonwealth countries that use the term "author-date", but we can't find non-Commonwealth countries that use the term "Harvard referencing". 
In Canada, the Univerity of Calgary Press calls the system "author-date": "All books in the natural sciences and most in the social sciences should use the author-date system of citation" (http://www.uofcpress.com/InfoAuthors/Prep10.html). 
The University of Calgary's Information Resources departmennt, in "Citing Electronic and Print Resources", at http://library.ucalgary.ca/subjectpages/business/subjectguides/citingelectronicandprintresources.php, uses the term "author-date" and does not mention "Harvard". 
Other evidence comes from a document published by a highly reputed authority, google.com:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22author+date%22+citation+reference&btnG=Google+Search
This document states:
"Results ... about 125,000"
As the second piece of evidence I cite another document published by the same authority:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+OR+%22harvard+reference%22+citation+reference&btnG=Google+Search
This document states:
"Results ... about 17,000"
These two published documents together demonstrate that over seven times as many web pages worldwide, in the context of citations and references, use the term “author-date” than use either “Harvard referencing” or “Harvard reference”.
I think it is reasonable to assume that, unless anyone can produce evidence to the contrary, use by persons is roughly proportional to use by web pages.
Additional evidence comes from another web page published by google.com:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22harvard+referencing%22+%22harvard+university%22&btnG=Search
This published authority shows (on the first page and subsequent pages of the document) that almost every web page that uses the term is a web page in the Commonwealth.
Interestingly, the first non-Commonwealth web page that appears in the document is http://www.wku.edu/Library/dlps/guides/stylwrit.htm. This page, from Western Kentucky University, does mention “Harvard” – just once. Aside from that one mention of “Harvard”, the document uses the term “author-date” exclusively. And the sole mention of “Harvard” is a reference to the University of Western Australia (it is a pointer to UWA’s citation guidelines). This document provides further demonstration that the term “Harvard referencing” is used very rarely outside Commonwealth Countries, excluding Canada.
I did not cherry-pick the citations above. On the contrary, every citation authority I investigated, online or printed, confirmed the evidence discussed above. I did not find and discard authorities who failed to confirm the idea that the term “Harvard referencing” is regional. This means that I could, probably with ease, produce additional authorities (even in the Commonwealth countries less Canada) that use the term “author-date” and do not use the term “Harvard referencing”. I have not done so because, at this time, I think it’s enough for me to cite the Oxford Style Manual, The Chicago Manual of Style, The University of Toronto, The University of Maryland, the MIT-Microsoft Mayfield Handbook, the APA Manual, Turabian, the MLA Handbook, the MLA Style Manual, Howell, Webster’s, and google.com.
There is no need to break any links – we preserve the value of links by redirecting the regional term “Harvard referencing” to the worldwide term “author-date”. There is no need to ban the term “Harvard referencing” – we can support the term by redirection, and we can define it properly as a regional synonym for “author-date”.
TH 06:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  reasons for changing name from "Harvard referencing" to "author-date" -- for convenience of arbitrators 

message: How do you cite a book or article that was citing someone else? I.e. If Smith cited Jones in a 2006 article, how do you reference this? E.g. (Smith, ref Jones 2006)? or would you have to search for the original Jones article, but that wouldn't be in the bibliography since it's not literature you would have read. NinjaKid 08:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citing Citations 

message: Given the compelling arguments presented here, my own research over the past few days, and my experience as a professor (in the States and elsewhere), it does make sense from a world-wide perspective to use "author-date" citations as the broader term and then adding into the narrative that this system is also known as parenthetical citations and Harvard referencing. This steps out of any regionalized use, by not calling it Harvard style or APA style or CBE style, etc. The same changes have been made over in the MoS. I'll do a bit more research, although perhaps not until this semester is over, to see what else I can find about the history of the development of this style.  It would seem appropriate too to change the title of this and all of the relevant articles and templets, with redirects built in for those who most normally think of this method as Harvard referencing. I don't know how to do this yet, so if perhaps someone else with this expertise or access could oblige? warmly, Cyg-nifier 12:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Being Bold  

message: says:
*... full citations are collected in alphabetical order under a "References" or "Works Cited" heading at the end.
From the context, it appears that "alphabetical order" really means "alphabetical order by author's name." If this is so, it would be nice to make that explicit, so the reader does not have to waste time inferring it. And does the  article itself use Harvard referencing? #Notes does not appear to. That seems confusing. --Teratornis 14:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alphabetical order by what? 

message: I return after some time to pick at an old scab - I have presented evidence for my contention that 'Harvard system' is a misnomer. And I find that there is continuing contention on the matter of whether it is a good name or not. My feeling is that it is not so much the convenience or otherwise  of 'Harvard system' vs 'author-date system' as that 'Harvard' is downright inaccurate. As a teacher of study skills, I also happen to find 'author-date' a good way of demonstrating to students how the system works: "You need two words - author + date (+ sometimes a 3rd, 'p') in your text, and these direct you to the List of References, where I will look for the 'author' (+ forename detail) and 'date' - which must be the same as in the text." So the name 'author-date', if admittedly clumsier, is more helpful - as well as more accurate, and, finally, more widely accepted. Your question (30/04/07), SlimVirgin, about the difference between 'Harvard' and 'author-date', may be slightly misleading: in my own university, there are many departments that claim to be using 'the Harvard system', no two of which seem to agree on pernickety detail. There are many variants, and, as I hope my evidence suggests, we can't ask Harvard to adjudicate. So instead of using the (inaccurate) name of 'Harvard, which gives an illusion of magisterial authority, it seems preferable to use the idea of the 'author-date family of referencing systems, and, to save complexity, simplify this to 'the author-date system', adding if necessary, 'in this department's implementation'. (Incidentally, if anyone can tidy up my presentation of the images I have uploaded to support me, I'd be grateful: my solution to my problem doesn't seem elegant to me. (I'm still more virginal in Wikipedia than SlimVirgin, if probably not slimmer.)MacAuslan 21:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with MacAuslan. I've seen at least 4 different referencing guides claiming to follow Harvard, but they do not agree on every little detail. The name "harvard" certainly misleads because it is not overseen by that university. I support the use of author-date system in XXX department's style. --190.66.1.3 (talk) 19:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harvard University 

message: The first paragraph mentions "API style".  I've always heard it called "APA style".  I would change it to APA but I'm not positive.  Which is correct?  Bubba73 (talk), 17:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the link says APA so I changed it.  Correct it if I'm wrong.  Bubba73 (talk), 17:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  API or APA? 

message: These don't seem to mention the biggest con of using the author-date system rather than an author-title system: viz that the title is usually a lot more informative than the date! Is this an oversight? 𝐨𝐱𝐲𝐩𝐡𝐞𝐧𝐵𝑈𝑇𝐴𝑍𝑂𝑁𝐸 ⓊⓉ 18:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cons