Talk:Sweetest Day/Archive 1

message: Worst holiday ever. Forreals.--70.48.212.94 05:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I've added a disputed tag to this article per the comments in this edit:  . Someone knowlegeable needs to check this out... --HappyCamper 22:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed tag added 

message: This article forgets to mention what people do on sweetest day.
S Sepp 12:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What people do on sweetest day

message: It is obvious from reading the former edits on the topic of "Sweetest Day" that industry is still spinning the story of "Sweetest Day" right here on Wikipedia. For example, on the most recent edit the editor states that he "removed scare quotes." The quotes removed were:
"World War Two did not interrupt the promotion of "Sweetest Day." Neither did the events of 9/11/2001. American Greetings, Hallmark, Retail Confectioners International and every retailer who participates in this manufactured "holiday" have promoted "Sweetest Day" five times since 9/11/2001."
These statements are not "scare quotes," they are NEUTRAL FACTS.
If the NEUTRAL FACTS of the history of "Sweetest Day" are disturbing, perhaps America and these industries should reconsider this engineered "observance."
It IS disturbing that while hundreds of thousands of American Service Personnel were being killed and MILLIONS were being exterminated by ANTI-SENTIMENT during World War Two, the Candy Industry never gave up on it's MANIPULATION of American Consumers.
It IS disturbing that American Greetings and Hallmark have elected to spin a fake "holiday" for America 5 TIMES since the events of 9/11/2001 and War on Terror began. Especially given the FACT that they are blocking all patented new greeting card products from the US Greeting Card Marketplace in order to keep their OBFUSCATED MONOPOLY level.
These NEUTRAL FACTS will be re-inserted into the edit; Americans have a right to know and understand and make decisions based on ALL THE FACTS.
(Note: the above comments were added by 24.12.179.210)
::Hello, 24.12,179.210.  Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your contributions, which I agree are valuable to present the complete background of Sweetest Day.On another note, however, it appears that some of the changes you made to this article do not conform to Wikipedia's neutral point-of-view policy.  For example, asserting that the histories posited by the candy industry are "contrived" (although I myself tend to agree that that is in fact an accurate description) most likely is an unacceptably loaded form of editorializing.  Perhaps it might be more in line with Wikipedia's policies to change that section title simply to "The Candy Industry's Story," and let the readers draw their own conclusions regarding the factuality (or lack thereof) of the candy industry's putative history?Certain other changes also tend to reflect a strong point of view on the validity of Sweetest Day, which probably should likewise be toned down to reduce possible inappropriate non-NPOV issues.--Ryanaxp 23:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I forgot to add one thing.  In your (24.12.179.210) comments above, you seem to be confused with regard to the meaning of scare quotes.  This phrase (scare quotes) does not refer to quotes that are believed to be appeals to the reader's fears, as you appear to have construed in your comments.  Rather, "scare quotes" simply refers to putting quotation marks around words (see the beginning of this sentence, for example) in order to convey the author's skepticism or contempt for whatever is within the quotation marks.So, I trust you understand that I did not remove any actual quotations (that is, words reflecting the statements or writings of a third person) from the article.  What I did, however, was remove quotation marks from around the phrase Sweetest Day throughout the article.  I did not do this because I disagree that Sweetest Day is a made-up holiday, but because scare quotes are generally contrary to good style (and in this case, represent inappropriate editorializing).--Ryanaxp 23:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  INDUSTRY IS SPINNING WIKIPEDIA 

message: ::Oh, I forgot to add one thing.  In your (24.12.179.210) comments above, you seem to be confused with regard to the meaning of scare quotes.  This phrase (scare quotes) does not refer to quotes that are believed to be appeals to the reader's fears, as you appear to have construed in your comments.  Rather, "scare quotes" simply refers to putting quotation marks around words (see the beginning of this sentence, for example) in order to convey the author's skepticism or contempt for whatever is within the quotation marks.So, I trust you understand that I did not remove any actual quotations (that is, words reflecting the statements or writings of a third person) from the article.  What I did, however, was remove quotation marks from around the phrase Sweetest Day throughout the article.  I did not do this because I disagree that Sweetest Day is a made-up holiday, but because scare quotes are generally contrary to good style (and in this case, represent inappropriate editorializing).--Ryanaxp 23:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scare quotes

message: This article is heavily slanted towards an anti-Sweetest Day point of view.  While I tend to agree that Sweetest Day is probably the most blatant Hallmark holiday out there, this article needs to describe the holiday and the critism of the holiday while not using words and phrases like: "cynical", "scheme", "contrived", "cash cow", "guilt [...] citizens into buying candy", "exploitative and engineered", "disinformation bandwagon", etc.  I've tried to remove POV words from the first part of the article (though the end of "Origin of Sweetest Day" needs work).  However the "Refutation of the Contrived Industry Story" section needs some major editing.  It would also be good to cite sources (e.g. Plain Dealer articles). --Transfinite 22:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that I read this more, I have to wonder who the "critics" are, exactly.  Just calling them critics is a textbook example of weasel words.  Name names as far as who is opposed to this holiday. --Transfinite 00:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm still waiting for a secondary source on all this - a real historian who can place the newspaper articles in a proper historical context.  I would say that a story that is essentially the same across several company and personal website is verified enough for me.  The source you have cited against this topic is a personal website, which is not a reliable source.  --Transfinite 01:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: From WP:NOR: "Research that draws predominantly on primary sources is generally discouraged, in favor of research based on secondary sources." Also, "[A] new analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position" is original research.  Also, there are several statements in the old version that I find hard to believe were in the newspaper articles, such as the accusation that "they" gave away candy in order to "guilt" people into buying candy. --Transfinite 17:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: My family is from rural Ohio and they did and do still have a sweetest day.  Mostly home made stuff and very low key.  We also did it in Florida at my elementary school.  Sure its a created holiday, but Kwanzaa is equally artificial. 148.63.236.141 01:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Issues 

message: I'm not sure I agree the hoax tag.  There is a difference between "hoax" and "popular mythology".  The popular mythology of the day is that Kingston created it as day to honor orphans and shut-ins... and that version of events has been widely reported.  This should be in the article (see WP:V verifiability not truth).  If there is an alternate version of events that can be sourced (i.e. the Cleveland Plain Dealer Newspaper article, this could be included as well as an alternate, sourced, version of events.  The article space is big enough for both versions without making any judgements as to which is true.  Besides, the hoax tag is for articles that are primary hoaxes created in Wikipedia without external sourcing.  Well known hoaxes that are documented here are just described as such in the article... not tagged.--Isotope23 16:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree... Herbert Birch Kingston is the reported version of events and this easily constitutes a "popular mythology of the day.  Whether there it is industry spin/disinformation is irrelevant to the fact that every single independently reported version of how this day started repeats the Herbert Birch Kingston version of events, making this version verifiable, if not true.  I find no mention of the newspaper article you've referenced several times anywhere.  I'd be sort of interested to see the actual text of the newspaper article (I can't read it in the image).  If it WP:V states that this day was started by these 12 men as a way to sell confections, this would be an interesting addition to the article... it just has to be sourced.  Regardless, the  tag that is on the article right now is the correct one in this situation.--Isotope23 17:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: On another note... "industry disinformation" or marketing can quite easily become "popular mythology" if enough people buy into it.  Ever hear of Santa Claus or  Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer?--Isotope23 18:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Hoax tag

message: Transfinite, no one has expressed any doubt as to Herbert Birch Kingston's existence. He is clearly listed on the Cleveland census as a confectioner. There is zero evidence however that he formed the Sweetest Day in the Year Committee. It is more likely that the committee was appointed by the National Confectioner's Association or the Mayor of Candyland, not a candy company employee. Herbert Birch Kingston disappears from the Cleveland Census after 1920 and never returns. Until someone can demonstrate that Herbert Birch Kingston was involved in any way in the origins of Sweetest Day, all references to him should be deleted from this article. What relevance do secondary sources have when there is not a single primary source to back them up? Miracleimpulse 22:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed the article to reflect your comments, Miracleimpulse.  However, since so many sources agree that H.B. Kingston founded the holiday, it makes it verifiable and notable, so it should stay. --Transfinite 22:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Herbert Birch Kingston 

message: What is the purpose of having the images of the individual committe members here when they can all be viewed via the external link?  It just clutters up the page in my opinion without adding much to it.--Isotope23 15:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Back to the pictures... I still don't see what purpose they serve.  Having them in the article in no way "proves" your hypothesis and as they are readily viewable in the link to your own website, I'm not sure I see much value in having individual photos of people in the article... how does it add to this article or in any way make it better?--Isotope23 16:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: *I agree... I'm trying to strike a happy medium here but I don't really see what value these images add to the article when the text can't be read.  Citation of the newspaper article is in this article and that should be sufficient.--Isotope23 18:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Individual Images

message: As an American Greetings Shareholder for nearly a decade, I am extremely concerned about the apparent anti-competitive relationship which exists between American Greetings and Hallmark. It is my personal belief that American Greetings and Hallmark act as a perfect monopoly in the Greeting Card Industry, and that over the past 50 years or more this relationship has been extremely harmful to America and the world as a whole. Sweetest Day is only one example of how American Greetings and Hallmark are working together to deceive America.
Two years ago, I brought up the issue of Sweetest Day on the Yahoo Finance American Greetings Messageboard, and nearly a year ago I challenged anyone to post a photo or any information on Sweetest Day and Herbert Birch Kingston. You can read the entire message thread here: 1 261 messages and a lot of insults later, zero information, except for a wacky article published last year in The Cleveland Plain Dealer has been posted. No photos of Herbert Birch Kingston, no date of birth-death, no information about why he left Cleveland after 1920 or where he went. To my knowledge, no information about Herbert Birch Kingston (except the numerous websites which say exactly the same thing almost word-for-word about "Herbert Birch Kingston and his group of friends") exists anywhere. With that in mind, let's answer the following questions about Sweetest Day and Herbert Birch Kingston before we include Mr. Kingston in the edit (except as a hoax):
1) What was Herbert Birch Kingston's date of birth?
2) What was Herbert Birch Kingston's date of death?
3) What was the name of the candy company where Herbert Birch Kingston worked in Cleveland?
4) Did Mr. Kingston have a wife? What was her name?
5) Did Mr. Kingston have any children? What were their names?
6) Are any of Mr. Kingston's descendants still living?
7) Why hasn't the City of Cleveland ever recognized Sweetest Day as a holiday?
8) Why hasn't the City of Cleveland ever recognized Herbert Birch Kingston as a citizen?
9) Why did Mr. Kingston disappear from the Cleveland Census after 1920? Where did he go?
10) Was Mr. Kingston still alive when Hallmark started selling Sweetest Day cards in the 1960's?
11) Has Hallmark ever had any contact with Herbert Birch Kingston? What about American Greetings? (Especially American Greetings, after all, American Greetings has been located in Cleveland for over 100 years now.)
12) What do the Whitman's Candies archives say about Sweetest Day and Herbert Birch Kingston? (Whitman's Candies, located in Kansas City home of Hallmark, placed the largest ad in The Cleveland Plain Dealer on the first Sweetest Day.)
13) Was Herbert Birch Kingston actually personal friends with Theda Bara and Ann Pennington, two of the biggest film stars of the day?
14) Why haven't Hallmark and American Greetings come forward with any biographical or historical information about Herbert Birch Kingston?
15) What is the primary source of the Herbert Birch Kingston story?
16) Who appointed the 12 confectioners to be Sweetest Day in the Year Committeemen?
17) What was the role of the National Confectioner's Association (established 1917) in the founding of Sweetest Day?
18) Will Hallmark, American Greetings, and The National Confectioner's Association release all archived primary source information in their possession concerning Herbert Birch Kingston and the origins of Sweetest Day?
(this list may be expanded)
Oh, and one last question: How much money do you think Hallmark, American Greetings and the Candy industry as a whole have made off of Sweetest Day since October 8th, 1921?
Ok Sweetest Day history enthusiasts! Get to work!
Miracleimpulse 06:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unanswered Sweetest Day Questions