Talk:Black tie

message: I am a bit puzzled that it's not mentioned what women shall wear at a Black Tie event.
*It's covered briefly in the introduction. See this site for an exhaustive explanation. Deltabeignet (talk) 05:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What shall Women Wear?

message: According to Chapter XXXIV ("The Clothes of a Gentleman") of Emily Post's <I>Etiquette in Society, in Business, in Politics and at Home</i> (1922, New York, Funk and Wagnalls) (full text available at http://www.bartleby.com/95/ ), regarding tuxedo clothes, "The smartest hat for town wear is an opera, but a straw or felt which is proper in the country, is not out of place in town. Otherwise, in the street the accessories are the same as those already given under the previous heading."  I believe "opera" is another term for a collapsible silk top hat. Michael Gerard Tom 04:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From the Black Tie Guide: "Until the dinner jacket found a hat of its own in the 1930s  (pictured), it was usually accompanied by the more formal  top hat or collapsible opera hat." The picture in question shows a black homburg. In the earlier days of black tie, there was more borrowing from white tie, with some men wearing white piqué vests and bow ties. That the full-dress hat would also be appropriated is not surprising. Deltabeignet (talk) 03:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Top hat with dinner jacket 

message: There appears to have recenly been some discussion on the number of buttons on a traditional dinner jacket.  As the most recent version of the article - as written by another contributor -states the most traditional form is to have just one button on the jacket.  This is certainly the truth, despite some recent contributor's efforts to remove this from the site.  Two buttons are very rampant and are generally considered correct, though anything with more than two buttons is essentially not a dinner suit.--Zoso Jade 13:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Coat & number of buttons

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:HughLaurie-BertieWooster.jpg

message: Is stroller specifically American dress?  If so I think this should be noted.8.8.38.2 (talk) 20:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No. London and Cambridge are the only places where I have ever seen it recently (not that I have been to the States for a while).  The name 'stroller' is American though. I believe I added this to the stroller article. The article does in fact need quite a bit of work (organising and adding facts and references, as well as some illustrations).  I will do this whenever I have a bit of time. —Kan8eDie (talk) 21:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Stroller

message: I know black tie is only "semi" formal, but are those guys in the photo really drinking beer straight out of the bottle?! Rees11 (talk) 18:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So it would seem. I am notorious for never having pictures of myself to hand, but if you have something better and want to replace it, feel free. Black tie is after all originally just an informal loose jacket for slobbing around in when the ladies were away. Beer from the bottle fits in well with the after-dinner brandy and cigars mentality, if not in execution of the ideal. —Kan8eDie (talk) 20:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beer out of a bottle? 

message: I think we may have just seen a permanent change in Men's dress codes tonight.  At the Inaugural Balls, President Obama upstaged his wife by daringly wearing a white-tie with his dinner jacket.  Inaugural Balls are typically white-tie and Obama's decision to wear a tuxedo (a bad one, sadly) instead was reported as a signal of frugality in the economic crisis.  But then he wore a white-tie with it!  This may be a situation like the creation of the dinner jacket by the Edward VII (while Prince of Wales) or the adoption of the soft collar and authorization of midnight blue by his son the Duke of Windsor (when he, in turn, was Prince of Wales).  In each case - as in most changes to the male dress code through the years - they used their status at the very apex of the social pyramid as license to change the rules.  I wonder if we have not just seem the same thing from the new phenomenon/President - the final banishing of the tailcoat and the adoption of the dinner jacket for white-tie. TheCormac (talk) 03:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It will never catch on outside academia (where we use it as subfusc). I might even suggest that the fact that an American President wore it makes it highly unlikely to be copied by anyone else outside America (for fear of being associated with the US). I myself wear American styles, but most people would hate making that link. White tie will continue to be worn for at least the rest of our lives, as unchanged as it has been since the 1920s.— Kan8eDie (talk) 20:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I hardly think the US President can cause such a fashion revolution, unless it were a woman. Anyway, I also thought the white tie with an otherwise black tie outfit was bizarre, but at least his clothes were well tailored. His and McCain's actual white tie outfits at that roast a few months ago were rather embarrassing... both looked very poorly fitting, which defeats the point of uniform male formalwear.Njsustain (talk) 17:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: A Change?

message: I'm concerned about the use of the image File:Tuxes.jpg because it's currently the primary illustration but includes a blue tie and (until just recently) had an erroneous lapel description in the caption.  I intend to move the image to a less prominent position, but didn't want to completely remove it precipitously.  Should it go, or be thoughtfully located and noted as a variant?  ENeville (talk) 20:50, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for that: it is not perfectly accurate, but I try to keep the article from deteriorating. That bad description was only added a day and half ago, and it 'slipped through the net'. (Actually, just under two days for a mistake to be fixed is very good by wiki standards.) The state of pictures on all the clothing articles is dire, and we make do with what we can get. Almost certainly, the main contributors to the article do not approve of blue bow ties. On the other hand, I suspect people do wear coloured ties widely in America, so it could perhaps be said to describe well. The replacement was nonetheless better; thanks.— Kan8eDie (talk) 22:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. The Wikipedia article on Black Tie should probably display pictures of outfits which adhere to the generally accepted rules of the dress code.  The problem comes about because most pictures of people wearing an appropriate get-up are copyrighted.  Failing this one of the contributors could put a self-portrait but I for one do not really want a picture of me used for the Black Tie article.--Zoso Jade (talk) 18:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

text: I agree the image is inappropriate, and mislabeled (only the third person is wearing a fold down collar). It looks silly and is a poor depiction of black-tie attire. It should be removed even if a better picture is not currently available.Njsustain (talk) 18:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: (Belated note: the caption error was describing the notched collars as peaked. ENeville (talk) 19:06, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Even if it was representative (which I think it is not), it is not suited for this article because: a. the image quality is poor: it is out of focus and it uses a hard flash, furthermore, a computer monitor is visible in the foreground when it should not have been; b. a blue tie is generally not considerd black tie or tuxedo (the article must represent a worldwide view on the subject and I've never, ever, seen anyone in Europe wear a colored tie to a black tie event); and c. the people on the photo are not suited to illustrate the subject: though they are technically wearing black ties, due to the way they are positioned this image does not give a good impression of black tie attire (and I also suspect these are rental suits). Cocytus Antenora (talk) 11:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blue tie image concerns 

message: Maroon is the traditional colour for accessories. We wear it still now on the handkerchief, and in the past it was all over (stripes on socks etc., and even cummerbund). This was not the same as 'Red Sea rig', which was rare, strange, and a much brighter red. See illustration. I have a similar image somewhere in the archives for mess dress and red sea rig showing the brighter colour.— Kan8eDie (talk) 13:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Maroon

message: The History section now seems to contradict itself as to whether Potter or Lorillard was the first to wear a tuxedo in the US. My copy of Flusser is at the cleaner's so I can't check. Rees11 (talk) 21:33, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potter vs Lorillard 

message: It would probably be futile to list all the countries in which the term "smoking" is used. But it's a fairly common term on the Continent, and should be mentioned. Unfortunately I have no source, as usual. Rees11 (talk) 05:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smoking 

message: Is a Black bow ties always worn to a "Black Tie  Event"? Have a Tuxedo look great kin same! But also haved a White silk tie!Thanks!HOYMOI (talk) 21:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No. But they should be. White silk bow ties are not worn with a dinner jacket. Neither are they worn with a tail coat. Opera hat (talk) 21:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is a Black BOW Tie always worn? 

message: I see that Canada and Ireland have been moved from the "Tuxedo" column to the "dinner jacket" column. Do we have a source for that? Rees11 (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada and Ireland 

message: Cited material regarding what neck wear is appropriate is repeatedly being removed. The material regarding neck ties was added, not because of its correctness or acceptability, but because the practise exists. It, consequently, warrants discussion regardless of whether anyone approves of the practise.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvnik (talk • contribs) 01:20, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dinner Jacket Neckwear 

message: Per redundancy. "Black tie" is strictly speaking the dress code. This article was split from tuxedo in 2011 per WP:BOLD by . The arguments opposing this split above on this talk page, however, merits a reconsideration. Mainly, black tie is the etiquette designating dinner suit as seen in Tuxedo#Etiquette: "black tie". As such there is no essential difference in scope. This policy would be in consistency with how morning dress deals with both clothes and dress code, as is the case with white tie (although the latter article curiously opted its article name after the very WP:COMMONNAME dress code, which however merits reconsideration per se). Any thing "black tie" that for whatever uknown reasons must not be dealt with in the tuxedo article may as well be mentioned on semi-formal wear, Western dress codes or bow tie. It hardly seems motivated to confusingly retain such a redundant duplication of content as in the preexisting state. Either that, or tuxedo ought better merge into black tie, as dress coat is trancluded in white tie, and morning coat in morning dress. Chicbyaccident (talk) 19:10, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You have made a reasonable case for merging the two articles. As for which one should be subsumed into the other, the main issue I foresee is the disagreement as to whether the garment should be referred to as a 'dinner jacket', 'dinner suit', or 'tuxedo'. To avoid any such disagreement, I propose that they should be consolidated under the dress code article in a similar fashion to the one on 'Morning dress'. --Irvnik (talk) 05:59, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  If none else opposes it, we might have a case to carry it out, then? Chicbyaccident (talk) 00:57, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that it would be best to merge the article on the garment into this article on the dress code. Opera hat (talk) 01:42, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. I have altered top the top page templates to reflect the current consensus of merging tuxedo into black tie. Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:06, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I could support merging the garment (tuxedo) into the dress code article (black tie) but not the other way around. Greenshed (talk) 21:20, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal with [[tuxedo]] 

message: Hello. Page 201 of Ford's and DeMontravel's book (which is the source given for it, not Emily Post...) says "too formal for weddings", not "too informal", and it's also obvious that black tie/tuxedo, a dress that is considered to be too formal to use before 6 PM, can't possibly be seen as too informal (i.e. the direct opposite to formal) to use for daytime weddings... - Tom | Thomas.W  talk 23:17, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The above moved from User talk:Chicbyaccident for convenience. Chicbyaccident (talk) 23:25, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your edit away from a longstanding stable version seems to contradict the assertion of Emily Post. What makes the sources you invoke more authoritative on the subject, please? Chicbyaccident (talk) 23:28, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The source given for it is Ford and DeMontravel, who say "formal", not Emily Post. And "seems to contradict" isn't good enough, you need to prove beyond doubt that Emily Post has said that tuxedo/black tie is too "informal" for a (daytime, i.e. before 6PM) wedding. - Tom | Thomas.W  talk 23:57, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Isn't she readily quoted implying that message in the following sentence? I fail to see how you could interpretate her quote quite the other way around. Chicbyaccident (talk) 00:52, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, she most definitely does not imply that. What she says is "do not wear black tie/tuxedo for weddings, regardless of time of day", which if anything implies that it's too formal for daytime wear and too informal for evening wear... - Tom | Thomas.W  talk 09:31, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

text:  A solution to this contention may be to rewrite it to acknowledge both points of view. For example: '… etiquette and clothing experts disagree on the appropriateness of wearing black tie for weddings. Whilst most discourage or condemn the wearing of black tie before 6:00[reference] or 7:00[reference] in the evening, others consider it either too formal[reference] or too informal[reference] for weddings’. Irvnik (talk) 01:55, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Did you miss the traditional distinction between day wear and evening wear? PPEMES (talk) 17:58, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black tie 

message: The article appears to contain an internal contradiction.  In the section Cummerbund", it says "The material of the cummerbund should be silk satin, grosgrain (or faille), or barathea to match that of the bow tie."  This already suggests that one might have a choice of tie colour.  Later it says (about the cummerbund), "... the Black Tie Guide endorses deep and rich colours ..." but a bit further down in the same section, it says "...the bow tie must remain black in any case."  At least in Switzerland, fairly high-priced clothing stores (e.g. PKZ) sell sets of matching ties and cummerbunds in colours other than (but also including) black.
Some examples from online merchants can be found on Amazon and Absolute Ties  BTW, I prefer to wear non-black bow ties to avoid being confused with waiting staff (see Talk:Black tie#Black Tie for waitstaff).
Rsbrux (talk) 15:21, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cummerbund 

message: The lounge suit is mentioned in passing as a type of business suit.
Actually a lounge suit is less formal than a business suit.
Lounge suits are designed to be worn as leisure wear, for example lounging around.
198.144.208.148 (talk) 17:23, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No, a lounge suit is the standard terminology in tailoring for distinguishing from dinner suit, morning suit, frock suit, Norfolk suit, dress suit, etc. These other kinds of suit are now so uncommon that to most people, a lounge suit is just called a suit, and it's not commonly known that it's technically a lounge suit. Maybe you are thinking of a leisure suit? That's different from a lounge suit. Indefatigable (talk) 20:20, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of Lounge suit 

message: At present we have an Undue weight section template on the weddings section.  I cannot find any discussion about what the perceived issue might be either here or in the talk page archive.  I propose to remove the template unless someone can illuminate us as to what the concerns might be.  Greenshed (talk) 13:08, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue weight template on Weddings section 

message: "In British English, the dress code is often referred to synecdochically by its principal element for men . . ."
This is a terrible sentence, that doesn't belong here. Hugely pretentious ('synecdochically'? Really?), clearly irrelevant to the topic, and un-encyclopaedic. This English part of Wikipedia is a learning tool, for the average person who has a basic understanding of the language, not some kind of gymnasium for people to do one-handed grammar and diction push-ups. Get rid of it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.88.17.195 (talk) 23:56, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The First Paragraph