Talk:Úbeda/Archive01

message: If there is no article on a person (or whatever other topic), it should be redlinked, to make that obvious, not interwiki-linked. Adding internal interwiki-links, instead of just wikifying, also makes it impossible to use the "What links here"-function from the unwritten article to see if there are any ingoing links that might be useful to check out. / Uppland 15:01, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That should be obvious, and also Wikipedia:Interlanguage links says nothing about putting interwiki links in the text. But Philip Baird Shearer is completely stubborn on this. Would you certify an RFC on the matter if he continues? NoPuzzleStranger 09:02, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not aggressive. I explained myself, you didn't, so I had to prepare for some other recourse. Glad you're talking now. However, I don't see what the interwiki has to do with your two points here. You could write "Ubeda (Spanish: Úbeda)" without any interwiki link. Of course, I would still object to that since that implies that "Ubeda" is the English name of Úbeda, which is just not true. Stripping diacritics doesn't create an English name. This city does not have a separate English name, the only name is Úbeda. NoPuzzleStranger 10:58, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Links in the text

message: Removing the diacritic-less spelling from the first paragraph is clearly counter to the Manual of Style guidelines. That said, having an interwiki link to the Spanish version of the article in the intro seems non-standard, and redundant with the interwiki link in the left margin (assuming default skin/css). I'd follow the lead of Montreal, among others, and keep it simple: "Ubeda or Úbeda is a city...". Niteowlneils 00:05, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does it say in the Manual of Style that all names with diacritics have to be repeated with the diacritics stripped? Montreal is something entirely different, because it's a true English name, as seen by the fact that it is also pronounced in a distinctly different way as compared to the French. The same goes for Mexico, which is a true English name of México. But Ubeda is not an English name of Úbeda, just like Sao Paulo is not an English name of São Paulo; it is just a removal of diacritics. NoPuzzleStranger 11:16, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The longer I think about this, the more I tend to agree with what your saying. But if Úbena really is the only correct name, why do virtually all English sources on the net use Ubena, even sources written by Spanish people? Nobbie 16:04, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: Some articles are exempt from a naming policy due to individual reasons related directly to that article.  In this case:
#The move discussion took place before the policy came into effect
#There is no stated reason why this should be exempt
I therefore see no reason why this shouldn't come under the general naming policy, with a move request conducted to bring it back to Ubeda if required.  I think consistency is very important.  violet/riga (t) 12:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Global policy versus individual article choices 

message: Ubeda → Úbeda – Use Spanish diacritics as WP:UE tells us to do for proper names where no common English name exists and as we normally do for Spanish names. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Our readers will expect us to include diacritics here - especially since we normally do it for Spanish names. See below for more detailed reasoning and other perspectives. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
*Support Úbeda and Ubeda are different cities Guervos 09:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It contains a diacritic and as such is nonstandard and unhelpful as an article title. Wyss 19:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is hardly nonstandard on Wikipedia, we have oodles of articles with diacritics in the title - including, most importantly, many articles on other Spanish locations. The Use English policy even explicitly tells us not to transliterate Spanish names. In order to support keeping the page at "Ubeda" and be consistent with policy you need to argue, as Philip has attempted, that "Ubeda" is the "common English name" for the place. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 19:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Hahaha :) That's hilarious (and almost certainly a coincidence, of course). Now I know how to time move requests for Spanish and Catholic articles ;) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I made that statement at the time meaning that there was no consensus not to move and no technical impediment to the move. Once a WP:RM move has been made then I hold the position that another consensus WP:RM should be reached to move it back. This is because it is a 60% [majority vote/consensus] and it reduces conflict over moves (as for example has happened on the Zurich page). If you look through other pages where I have voted on such things I am consistent in this. I am also consistent in opposing moves back to an old name which happen in what I think is too short a period, even if I disagreed with the initial move. In the case of AE CE disputes, I vote in favour of the Primary Author whether AE or CE (See Tram,Gasoline ) I am also consistent in this. Curps you seem to think I act in bad faith, but I think my record stands for itself and I'll leave others to make up their own minds. Philip Baird Shearer 08:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't read too much into it. He was probably just referring to his position that the diacritics survey should give us all the authority we need to move the page and that a WP:RM is not needed. You disagree and I think we ought to take that into account as I outlined above. That's why I made a WP:RM request. As far as I've seen you're consistent and a Wikipedian of integrity. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 10:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Not in the broad sheet newspapers I checked on line (using google). If they mentioed Ubeda at all, which was not often, it was a majority almost exclusivly for Ubeda exept NYT which mentioned Úbeda once and Ubeda not at all.  What sort of sources were you checking?  Philip Baird Shearer 22:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was looking at reference books; I don't read newspapers much (and checking online defeats the purpose in this context). --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 22:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

text: If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language. Latin-alphabet languages like Spanish or French should need no transliteration
We're even explicitly told not to transliterate Spanish names. I don't see anything special about this case which warrants special treatment. If we're not to use diacritics in the names of relatively small, relatively unknown Spanish towns - best known for their associations with some people who don't have an article here yet - then I don't see any diacritics which we should keep. If Ubeda then why not Nescafe? They both have more Google hits than their counterparts with the diacritics.
As for common usage as a guideline - if we were to try to chase down common usage in English I think we should look at common usage in reference works rather than common usage in newspapers or common usage on the web. Just about any name you can think of will be more commonly spelled without its diacritics on the English speaking web. Common usage is a poor guideline in these cases. We should use the more pedantic information preserving representations of the names. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 23:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree with you and I only want to add that the UNESCO pdf and many webs use the (wrong) name Ubeda, because they aren't used to accent capital letters. Even in Spain you can find people who write Ubeda, but they are commiting an orthographic mistake. Johnbojaen 23:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move October 2005: Ubeda to Úbeda

message: Comment: I was wondering how the previous move vote had slipped by without my seeing it, until I realised it was posted on Easter Sunday and resolved the following Friday: no accusations of bad faith, but that does coincide with Semana Santa, when half the Spanish-speaking population of the world is either in Church or at the beach. –Hajor 21:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hahaha :) That's hilarious (and almost certainly a coincidence, of course). Now I know how to time move requests for Spanish and Catholic articles ;) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I made that statement at the time meaning that there was no consensus not to move and no technical impediment to the move. Once a WP:RM move has been made then I hold the position that another consensus WP:RM should be reached to move it back. This is because it is a 60% [majority vote/consensus] and it reduces conflict over moves (as for example has happened on the Zurich page). If you look through other pages where I have voted on such things I am consistent in this. I am also consistent in opposing moves back to an old name which happen in what I think is too short a period, even if I disagreed with the initial move. In the case of AE CE disputes, I vote in favour of the Primary Author whether AE or CE (See Tram,Gasoline ) I am also consistent in this. Curps you seem to think I act in bad faith, but I think my record stands for itself and I'll leave others to make up their own minds. Philip Baird Shearer 08:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't read too much into it. He was probably just referring to his position that the diacritics survey should give us all the authority we need to move the page and that a WP:RM is not needed. You disagree and I think we ought to take that into account as I outlined above. That's why I made a WP:RM request. As far as I've seen you're consistent and a Wikipedian of integrity. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 10:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Not in the broad sheet newspapers I checked on line (using google). If they mentioed Ubeda at all, which was not often, it was a majority almost exclusivly for Ubeda exept NYT which mentioned Úbeda once and Ubeda not at all.  What sort of sources were you checking?  Philip Baird Shearer 22:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was looking at reference books; I don't read newspapers much (and checking online defeats the purpose in this context). --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 22:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

text: If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language. Latin-alphabet languages like Spanish or French should need no transliteration
We're even explicitly told not to transliterate Spanish names. I don't see anything special about this case which warrants special treatment. If we're not to use diacritics in the names of relatively small, relatively unknown Spanish towns - best known for their associations with some people who don't have an article here yet - then I don't see any diacritics which we should keep. If Ubeda then why not Nescafe? They both have more Google hits than their counterparts with the diacritics.
As for common usage as a guideline - if we were to try to chase down common usage in English I think we should look at common usage in reference works rather than common usage in newspapers or common usage on the web. Just about any name you can think of will be more commonly spelled without its diacritics on the English speaking web. Common usage is a poor guideline in these cases. We should use the more pedantic information preserving representations of the names. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 23:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree with you and I only want to add that the UNESCO pdf and many webs use the (wrong) name Ubeda, because they aren't used to accent capital letters. Even in Spain you can find people who write Ubeda, but they are commiting an orthographic mistake. Johnbojaen 23:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. –Hajor 14:02, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from Ubeda to Úbeda

message: As you can see in :es:Ubeda, Úbeda is the city of Jaén described in this article and Ubeda is a village of Alicante. I think we don't have to discuss anymore about it. Johnbojaen 17:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you suggesting that Ubeda becomes a disambiguation page? Or do you think that the average person for whom English is their first language and have no Spanish should be able to tell the difference between Ubeda and Úbeda? Philip Baird Shearer 20:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ubeda and Úbeda isn't the same 

message: For inclusion when the article is unprotected: is this right -- () ? –Hajor 19:50, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so, at least that's how I've been pronouncing it in my mind throughout the debate ;) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 20:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. My IPA is a bit rusty. Exits stage left, singing uβeð'i, uβeð'a, life goes on... –Hajor 20:32, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: IPA

message: I believe that there is consensus that no user here should make a unilateral change to this article until the debate has been closed here. Unfortunately, one user (almost certainly just one person) has kept reverting the article and pre-empting the community decission. This user has shown the ability to user sock puppets to evade blocking under WP:3RR. Having got fed up with the listof anagramatic socks, I've protected the page from editing. This is not something I wanted to do, but, when the history page has so many reverts that you're unable to see the last constructive edit, things have go out of hand. I propose that the page stay protected until the title discussion is closed. --Gareth Hughes 19:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I had hoped someone else would step up to the plate for this, but no. So here goes: After an open vote lasting almost two weeks, we've got 14 in favour and seven opposed. WP:RM says a page can be moved if 60% or more support the proposal after five days. I'm going to unprotect the page, move it, and tweak the intro. –Hajor 13:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone can complain about this on procedural grounds. The original move to "Ubeda" was decided after four days of voting and the moving admin hirself voted for the move. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 13:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalsim and page protection