Talk:Silesia/Archive 5

message: 1) Why was the Silesian name of Silesia areased ???
2) Silesia is a region in Poland and Czech Republic (in simple English language). Why do we have do use such strange words like region what is now Poland. Is is just bad English or what???
3) Silesia is a geographical, historical, administrative and local government region not only historical.
4) What are the mysterious ties that were weakening or increasing ??????
5) Why the Czech/Bohemian kingdom is totally ignored here ???
6) Although it is arithmetically true, it is also misinformation that most of Silesia was German before 1945. All of Lower Silesia was German. Upper Silesia was divided between Germany, Poland, and Czechoslovakia.  
7) Although it is arithmetically true, it is also misinformation that majority of population was German. Un lower Silesia was mostly German with significant Polish and Jewish minority. Upper Silesia was mostly Polish with significant German and Jewish minority. The Czech Silesia was inhabitet by the Germans, Czechs and Poles.
8) It is not true that the German population were expelled and replaced by Poles expelled from former Kresy. 
After 1945 Upper Silesia was inhabited mainly by the same population as before, there were significant migrations, but not of ethnic reasons. 
Population in Lower Silesia was changed significantly, but is not true they were expelled. Most of the Germans escaped before the Soviets or were evacuated by the German authorities. Significant groups emigrated later. Polish authorities tried to hold them here as they wanted the labour force. There was also a group that was expelled. 
Polish population in Lower Silesia was not from Kresy. As the statistics collected in years 1945-50 show population of Lower Silesia was from various Polish regions (central, western, eastern Polsnd), from ex-Polish territoreis ceded to Soviet Union, from other parts of Soviet Union, from Germany (held as compulsory laborers there), from Western European countriies and also from Upper Silesia and some natives living in Lower Silesia before.
9) It is very biased to mantion only expulsion of German people, and to stay silent about expulsion of Polish Silesians by Bismarck and Hitler. It is also very strange to stay silent about killing Silesian Poles and Jews during WWII.
To summarize this intro seems to be a piece of Nationalist work and I cannot understand why Wikipedia is beeing used for such dirty misinformation and propaganda. It is very disgusting. [user:caius2ga|Grzes of Poznan]
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1 It doesn't exist a "Silesian name" and it doesn't exist a "Silesian language". What does exist, is dialects of Polish and of German spoken in Silesia, German Niederschlesisch and Polish-Silesian. The article does not mention the names you inserted because they are totally unknown and not used by other encypedias, e.g. Britannica, encyclopedia.com, Catholic Encyclopedia etc.
:: it is YOUR point of view. 100.000 people in Silesia declares they speak the Silesian language. If you don't believe they exist it your ptoblem, not theirs.
::: Well, then you should begin with convincing the serious encyclopedias, as the Britannica --- Nico 23:06, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Silesia is divided between three countries. I told you that revisionism have nothing here to do. Feel free to read the Britannica: "Historic region, east-central Europe. It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic. " Nico 01:08, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

text: Culture may be described under "Culture". The introduction shall just state what Silesia is referring to in English. Nico 01:08, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is it ?? The above version is unaceptable 

message: My suggestion for the neutral Silesia intro is (mainly summary of what was developped earlier):
Silesia (Silesian: Ślonsk, Ślunsk, Polish: Śląsk, German: Schlesien, Czech: Slezsko) is a geographical and historical province in south-western Poland and the north-eastern Czech Republic, located along the upper and middle Oder/Odra river. Because of its rich history the region has produced a unique cultural mix based on the local Silesian elements with strong Polish, Czech and German influences. Today the region is inhabited by the Poles, Silesians, Germans, Czechs and Moravians. History of Silesia is connected with history of the three nations and countries: Poland, Bohemia and Germany. 
 
First is says what Silesia is NOW: a geographical and historical region in two coutries.
: Silesia is divided between three countries. I told you that revisionism have nothing here to do. Feel free to read the Britannica: "Historic region, east-central Europe. It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic. " Nico 01:08, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Culture may be described under "Culture". The introduction shall just state what Silesia is referring to in English. Nico 01:08, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Silesia intro proposal 

message: 1) Editor Nico states that the Prussian/German boundaries are definitive, and the historical boundaries of Silesia in Polish and Czech times don't exist. 
As I have pointed out previously the Goerlitz area is part of Lusatia nad was joined to the Prussian province of Silesia in 1815-25. This are doesn't belong to Silesia.
2) Editor Nico states that's important that Most of Silesia was part of the German provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia before 1945 and its not important what's the current status.
3) Editor Nico uses the words historical region in east-central Europe, in what is now southwestern Poland ... The only undestanding could be: now it is in Poland, in future .. we will see.
4) Editor Nico thinks it's important that the majority of the population were German and its not important at all what are current inhabitants, and what are the other nations/ethnic groups.
5) Editor Nico thinks it's important to tell - in the intro - that the Germans were expelled, and at the same time he refuses to tell the the Poles and Jews were expelled and murdered - no mention even at the end of the article.
Why editor Nico doesn't like the truth 
Grzes of Poznan 02:16, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  What editor Nico does like ???? 

message: Hmm...the current introduction seems perfectly fine to me, as a disinterested outsider, as far as POV goes.  I'd like to say, thought, that "Ties with Poland were weakening over time, while ties with Germany were increasing," is not good English.  How about "Ties with Poland weakened over time, while ties with Germany increased.  After a period of Austrian rule, most of Silesia became a part of Prussia following the War of the Austrian Succession in the 18th Century."  This would be more precise, although perhaps too detailed for the introduction.  on the other hand, Frederick's seizure of Silesia is probably the most famous historical incident involving Silesia (certainly to English speakers), so some mention in the intro might be appropriate.  I'd also note that I hope you guys work out your differences soon so the article can be unprotected, as there's a lot of issues with awkward English phraseology at the moment, and the list of facts from the Catholic Encyclopedia really ought not to be in the article. john 03:29, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Back to discussion

message: I don't know what ties are you talking about?. Silesia was rules the Polish dukes until 1675, under Czech overlorship until 1742. The Kingdom of Bohemia was tied to the Kingdom of Germany as they both participated in the Roman Empire. So the conquest of Silesia by Prussia meant that there were LESS ties with Germany after 1742, as the rightful rulers of Germany were the Habsburgs of Austria. History of Silesia is rather a zig-zag not a straigh line. Grzes of Poznan 05:17, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Grzies, your understanding is, I think, quite wrong.  *Parts* of Silesia continued to be ruled by *Piast* dukes until 1675.  By the 15th century or so, said dukes were completely Germanized, despite their Polish origins.  And, in any case, most of Silesia was not being ruled by said Piast Dukes, but by the Habsburgs, who ruled Bohemia from 1526, and thus were suzerains of Silesia.  The Holy Roman Empire, which chose to elect the Habsburgs of Austria as Emperor for a long time, but was a state including many other separate estates, including most of Brandenburg-Prussia, is not the same thing as Habsburg hereditary territories, which the crown of Bohemia (including Silesia) basically was from 1526.  The Piast Dukes were, for the whole early modern period, basically tenants of the Habsburgs.  Over the course of this period, Silesia was becoming more and more Germanized.  It was certainly being *ruled* by Germans.  In 1740, with the death of Charles VI, Frederick the Great invaded Silesia, and managed to take over most of this.  His conquest was confirmed by treaties in 1742 and 1745.  This certainly did not mean less ties with "Germany", since Prussia was a German state, and Silesia became an integral part of it.  In any event, Silesia was already largely German long before 1742.  It is frequently noted by historians, for instance, how damaging the loss of Silesia was to the Austrians, because it was one of the few largely German territories they possessed.  So, the connection with the Habsburgs from 1526 increased the "ties" of the Bohemian crown to Germany, while the increasing Germanness of the population (certainly the towns and nobility were entirely German during the 17th/18th centuries, and much of the peasantry was as well - certainly in Lower Silesia) also would increase said connection.  By the time the Habsburgs lost most of Silesia in 1740-45, it was a largely German territory, with, of course, a substantial Polish minority, especially in Upper Silesia (although I suspect that Polish numbers in Upper Silesia would have increased tremendously in the late 19th century during the industrialization of the region).  It might also be noted that by the 20th century, in Upper Silesia, in particular, there was a substantial Polish-speaking population which, nevertheless, considered themselves to be "German," and voted to remain part of Germany in the plebiscite. john 06:58, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  The problem is not the bad English, but the bad content 

message: Because RickK told my that 'Referring to other users as Nazis a violation of Wikiquette' which I wasn't aware of, I am removing all my references to Nazi and placing Nationalist instead. 
I will stay away from editing Silesia for a couple of days, let the other editors have a chance to look at my edits, a have an opinion.
Grzes of Poznan 05:27, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  I will stay away for a couple of days 

message: It is very insidious to say that Silesia had a German majority at any time. According to the various sources in my possession, Silesia had Western Slavonic majority for all its historical times (at least since AD 600)
Before 1742 Silesia was divided between Czech Kingdom and Poland, and after 1742 Silesia was divided between Prussia, Czechia and Poland - we should count the population together.
=== Population of Prussian Silesia ===
* 1787 - 1.7 million (45 persons/sq km)
* 1871 - 3.7 million 
* 1910 - 5.2 million (130 persons/sq km)
* 1871-1910 Upper Silesia population density grew +68% to 167 persons/sq km
* 1871-1910 Lower Silesia population density grew +25% to 110 persons/sq km
=== Upper Silesia in 1921 ===
According to the German sources in Upper Silesia there were
* 1,159 Poles (65%)
* 621 Germans
* total 1,780
other counting
* Poles 1250 (64%)
* Germans 690 
* total 1940
The German sources are not very reliable. First the Prussian state considered all its subjects to be of the Prussian nationality se there was no need to collect nationality data. However they did collect the language data.
The declared language of the household head was assigned to all the houshold inhabitants including the servants. Billingual people were counted as Germans. Jews also declared the German language.
=== Silesian Voivodship in 1931 ===
Silesian Voivodship contained 1/3 of Upper Silesia assigned to Poland and half of Cieszyn Silesia divided between Poland and Czechoslovakia
* Total 1,3 million
* Poles some 90%
* Germans some 10%
* Jews some 1%
=== Czechoslovak Silesia ===
* Cieszyn Silesia ?
* Opava Silesia ?
=== Population of Silesia in 1938 (all three parts) ===
* Germans 2-2.5 million (according to various sources)
* Poles 2-2.5 million (according to various sources)
* Czechs and Moravians 0.5 million
* Jews 100.000 ??
=== Expelled Silesian Germans in 1950 ===
from Upper Silesia 550
from Lower Silesia 1,540
total 2,090
=== Population of Silesia in 1950 ===
Population (in thousands) of 3 Silesian voivodships in Poland:
* Katowice Voivodship 2,800 (2,300 natives + 200 repats + 300 ressetled)
* Opole Voivodship 800 (400 natives + 200 repats + 200 ressetled)
* Wroclaw Voivodship 1,700 (2,300 natives + 200 repats + 300 ressetled)
Total 5,300 (2,900 natives+ 1,000 repats+1,400 resettled)
* natives = people who lived there before 1938/45
* repats,repatriates = Polish expats in the Western Europe, and workers in Germany
* ressetled = people ressetled from central Poland, ex-Polish eastern territories and other lands of Soviet Union
=== Population of Silesia today ===
Some 10 milion, most of them were born in Silesia and do feel that they are Silesians. Most of them are ethnic Poles, but there are also those who feel: Silesians, Germans, Czechs and Moravians.
=== Population summary ===
To summarize: In all its known history of 1400 years Silesia had a Western Slavonic majority, although it is sometimes difficult to judge if these people were the Czechs, Moravians, Silesians or Poles. National identities were crystalized in the 20th century.  There was a significant Germanic majority althout there were never in history a majority of population. It is possible that the Germans were actually a majority in 1944 after a series of massacres. murders and expulsions of Poles and Jews and ressetlement of new Germans during WWII. These Nazi state of affairs should not have place in Vikipedia.
Caius2ga 21:50, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Majority of population 

message: To summarize: In all its known history of 1400 years Silesia had a Western Slavonic majority, although it is sometimes difficult to judge if these people were the Czechs, Moravians, Silesians or Poles. National identities were crystalized in the 20th century.  There was a significant Germanic majority althout there were never in history a majority of population. It is possible that the Germans were actually a majority in 1944 after a series of massacres. murders and expulsions of Poles and Jews and ressetlement of new Germans during WWII. These Nazi state of affairs should not have place in Vikipedia.
Caius2ga 21:50, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population summary 

message: I think this topic holds the record for "most archives of a talk page". Isn't there any area of argeement?
Please, someone just list all the disputed points. Then we can go through them one by one. I can help, if people want me to. --Uncle Ed 18:28, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Lots of archives

message: As szopen said, we have already been through this. Everyone else agree on the current version. No need for doing all this again when caius2ga is the only one not cooperating, and pushing his odd revisionism. Just look at other encyclopedias! I've asked him to tell what he don't like, and he haven't. Instead he is now flooding the talk page with misleading statistics, and calling all his opponents "Nazis". What he don't like is probably mentioning Germany at all, in an historical article dealing with a German province until modern times for almost 700 years with an overwhelming majority of German population! Give me a break!
What do you think about a vote on which introduction we should use? -- Nico 18:51, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Already been through this

message: My feeling is that User:Wik, User:szopen and me are moderates here introducing neutral attitude of writing about facts, about all ethnic groups, all political influences, about various points of view. 
And User:Nico is the extremist who tries to prove that Silesia was a most always a German province, most always with German majority, most always belonged to Germany, etc.
Nico asks what we don't like, and when we try to explain, he accusses us of flooding and spaming. If we prove he is wrong, he marks us as 'problem users', 'vandals', asks to 'protect the page' and threatens to introduce a ban to problem users. My opinion is that Nico thinks he is the wisest editor in the world, he thinks that the is lawyas right, and in fact he is just prone to the thruth and proofs.
I would like to mention in the history section that the Nazis have built tens of concentration camps during WWII, including Auschwitz-Birkenau (Oświęcim-Brzeinka) in Upper Silesia, and Gross-Rosen(Rogoźnica) in Lower Silesia to kill milions of people (Poland lost 6 million, that is some 20% of population). These Poles and Jews were replaced by the Germans resettled from various places.
And the Nico's answer is to delete any small mentions of these mass massacres, and to write at the TOP that before 1945 ...majority of the population were German. He also claims that this is neutral or concensus verstion. This is just disgusting. Disgusting. 
And he also want to make a voting. Imagine that. Nico want to make a voting if millions were killed by the Nazis, and if and when there was a German majority.
This is just disgusting. Disgusting. I don't know what to say Caius2ga 00:48, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moderates and extremist 

message: Silesia 
Region of Europe that has long been disputed because of its geographical position, mineral resources, and industrial potential now in Poland and the Czech Republic with metallurgical industries and a coalfield in Polish Silesia. Dispute began in the 17th century with claims on the area by both Austria and Prussia. It was seized by Prussia's Frederick the Great, which started the War of the Austrian Succession this was finally recognized by Austria in 1763, after the Seven Years' War. After World War I, it was divided in 1919 among newly formed Czechoslovakia, revived Poland, and Germany, which retained the largest part. In 1945, after World War II, all German Silesia east of the Oder-Neisse line was transferred to Polish administration about 10 million inhabitants of German origin, both there and in Czechoslovak Silesia, were expelled.
The chief towns (with their German names) are Wrocaw (Breslau), Katowice (Kattowitz), Zabrze (Hindenburg), Chorzow (Knigshtte), Gliwice (Gleiwitz), and Bytom (Beuthen) in Poland, and Opava (Troppau) in the Czech Republic.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0005241.html
1. [n]  a sturdy twill-weave cotton fabric; used for pockets and linings 
2. [n]  a region of central Europe rich in deposits of coal and iron ore; annexed by Prussia in 1742 but now largely in Poland 
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/Silesia
Silesia is a district in central Europe, formerly part of the German and Austrian Empires.
Katowice is an industrial city in Upper Silesia, southern Poland.
http://www.fas.org/news/reference/probert/GS2.HTM
B.2.) The First Silesian War (1740-1742) 
In 1740 Frederick II., King in Prussia, offered his vote (as Duke-Elector of Brandenburg) for Maria Theresia's husband, Duke Charles of Lorraine-Tuscany - if Austria would cede the territories of Jaegerndorf, Liegnitz, Brieg and Wohlau in Silesia to Prussia. The Viennese court rejected the proposition; Prussian troops invaded Silesia in December 1740 and quickly occupied the entire province ... Austria ceded most of Silesia (except Austrian Silesia) and the (Bohemian) county of Glatz to Prussia
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/18cen/austsucc.html
and also other resources:
Będzin: town in Silesia, Poland. A Jewish settlement existed in Będzin from the beginning of the 17th century. In 1765 the Jewish population numbered 446; in 1856, 2,440 (58.6% of the total); in 1897, 10,839 (45.6%); in 1909, 22,674 (48.7%); in 1921, 17,298 (62.1%); and in 1931, 21,625 (45.4%). ... The German army entered the town on Sept. 4, 1939, and five days later they burned the Great Synagogue in the Old City. About 50 houses surrounding the synagogue, which were inhabited exclusively by Jews, went up in flames and a number of Jews were burned to death
http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/Zaglembie/Zag002a.html
1911 Encyclopaedia:
Prussian Silesia:
At the census of 1905 the population of Silesia was 4,942,611, of whom 2,120,361 were Protestants, 2,765,394 Catholics and 46,845 Jews. The density is 317 per sq. m., but the average is of course very greatly exceeded in the industrial districts such as Beuthen. Three-fourths of the inhabitants and territory are German, but to the east of the Oder the Poles, more than 1,000,000 in number, form the bulk of the population, while there are about 15,500 Czechs in the south part of the province and 25,000 Wends near Liegnitz. The Roman Catholics, most of whom are under the ecclesiastical sway of the prince bishop of Breslau, are predominant in Upper Silesia and Glatz; the Protestants prevail in Lower Silesia, to the west of the Oder, and in Lusatia. The nobility is very numerous in Silesia, chiefly in the Polish districts. [...]
An important epoch in the history of Silesia is marked by the year 1740, when the dominion of Austria was exchanged for that of Prussia. Availing himself of a testamentary union made in 1537 between the duke of Liegnitz and the elector of Brandenburg, and of an attempt by the elector Frederick William to call it into force in spite of its annulment by Ferdinand I. in 1546, Frederick II. of Prussia raised a claim to the former duchies of Liegnitz, Brieg, Jagerndorf and Wohlau. The empress Maria Theresa, who was at this time involved with other enemies, was unable to prevent the occupation of Lower Silesia by Frederick and in 1741 ceded that province to him. In the following year Frederick renewed his attack and extorted from Austria the whole of Silesia except the districts of Troppau, Teschen and Jagerndorf, the present province of Austrian Silesia [...]
The annexation by Frederick was followed by a complete reorganization in which the obsolete powers of the local dynasts were abolished and Silesia became a mere province of the highly centralized Prussian state. Owing to the lack of a corporate Silesian consciousness and the feebleness of their local institutions, the people soon became recoiidiled to their change of rulers. Moreover Frederick, who had proved by his wars the importance which he attached to Silesia, was indefatigable in times of peace in his attempts to justify his usurpation. [...]
Austrian Silesia: 
In 1900 the population numbered 680,422, which corresponds to 342 inhabitants per sq. m. The Germans formed 44.69% of the population, 33.21% were Poles and 22.05% Czechs and Slays. According to religion, 84~ 73 were Roman Catholics, 14% Protestants and the remainder were Jews. The local diet is composed of 31 members, and Silesia sends 12 deputies to the Reichsrat at Vienna. For administrative purposes Silesia is divided into 9 districts and 3 towns with autonomous municipalities: Troppau, the capital, Bielitz and Friedek. Other principal towns are: Teschen, Polnisch-Ostrau, Jgerndorf, Karwin, Freudenthal, Freiwaldau and Bennisch.
The actual duchy is only a very small part, which was left to Austria after the Seven Years War, from its former province of the same name. It formed, with Moravia, a single province until 1849, when it was created a separate duchy.
http://3.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SI/SILESIA.htm
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What's your point, besides adding copyrighted material to Wikipedia? RickK 03:55, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  What do other on-line encyclopaedias say about Silesia