Talk:Munsell color system

message: I didn't correct this because it might involve something of a rewrite, but the diagram showing the 5Y and 5PB colors says "Note that the Munsell Book of Color contains more color samples than this chart for both 5PB and 5Y (particularly bright yellows, up to 5Y 9/20; that is twice as much chroma the 5Y 8/10 square to the left)." My copy of the Munsell Book of Color, bought new in late 2008, only goes up to 5Y 9/4, nowhere near 9/20. The highest chroma 5Y is 5Y 8.5/14. There are no chips of any color over chroma 16 as far as I know. Slinberg (talk) 21:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have implemented this edit to correct the description. Slinberg (talk) 15:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in diagram description 

message: Are there any color pickers in Mac OS X (or elsewhere) that are based on the Munsell system?  It seems that most tools are based on a hue wheel which changes luminosity as it goes around, making them much less useful for picking equiluminous color schemes.  --jacobolus (t) 23:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a Windows Munsell Conversion program from here. I've also found some web-based color pickers, but can't track down my reference for them. Argyriou (talk) 23:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: There's also EasyRGB's "Color Harmonies", which tries to pick colors which go together. Argyriou (talk) 22:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any modern munsell-based tools? 

message: Okay, I added a self-made picture (which took a bit longer than I thought it would).  This article still needs lots of work though.  --jacobolus (t) 02:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diagrams 

message: Perhaps the alternative terms for chroma (saturation) and value (brightness) should be mentioned here - as well as color spaces HSB and HSV (HSB redirects to HSV in Wiki). Maybe also a link to the HSV article. -- 85.22.11.133
: The introductory paragraph says: “value (or lightness), and chroma (roughly saturation)”.  Eventually it would be nice to explain the difference between "brightness" and Munsell value (lightness), and between "saturation" and Munsell chroma (colorfulness), because they are related but quite different concepts, and the Munsell versions are vastly more useful (being based on human perception) than the HSV/HSV versions.  For the article as it exists now though (that is, without a section discussing the relation between Munsell and other color systems, which I would like to add eventually), I don't think such an addition is needed.  --jacobolus (t) 23:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology 

message: I think it would be better to convert the charts to SVG images instead of HTML tables. Currently, it's not possible to print/reprint the images all by themselves or change the resolution. SharkD (talk) 11:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be better to have 25, 50 or 100 cells in the hue table instead of 40. Also, the article doesn't clearly explain what to do when a color coordinate uses a fractional value for hue, such as 2.5GY. SharkD (talk) 04:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The tables have the advantage of including the 8-bit sRGB values in-line, and roll-over text with both the munsell name and the sRGB hex. You can get one by itself by going to the appropriate template page, e.g. :Template:Munsell-hues. To be honest, I don't think printing these would be particularly useful though, because they show only the colors within the sRGB gamut, and a printout would be therefore limited, and likely also inaccurate. As for the number of hues displayed: these were colors for which there were exact direct measurements made. You can go grab the data yourself.  To show 25, 50, or 100 hues would require some interpolation from the collected data (you're welcome to do the math, if you want; I think 40 are fine, personally). Basically, my summary would be: make some SVG images which are more useful than the current tables if you want, and then we can discuss the replacement. (I don't personally think it would have much value; filling in more text would be a far better use of time, in my opinion.) –jacobolus (t) 21:16, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "To show 25, 50, or 100 hues would require some interpolation from the collected data (you're welcome to do the math, if you want; I think 40 are fine, personally)." You're right, 4 * 10 divisions are better. As for the inline RGB values, these can be gotten just as easily using the color picker in a paint application. Anyone interested in the codes probably has such software installed already. SharkD (talk) 01:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: 50 is wrong.  40 is how Munsell handles the colors in actual practice.  While it is an analog system, the minor hue subdivisions are at 2.5, 5, 7.5 and 10.  Those "round numbers" (heh) are the 40 plates in the Munsell Book of Color, and sheets of those hues are in stock at Munsell/XRite (I recently ordered 2.5BG 7/4).  They'll make you any color in between if you really have your heart set on 4BG 7.265/3.81, but it'll be custom work.  Someone using Munsell as a swatch catalog will probably pick one of these "round" numbers.  (Munsell was the first common standard color scheme, so was widely used post-World-War-II as a Pantone book is used today.)  Further, Munsell educational materials refer to the 40-hue scheme almost exclusively, because that is what's in the Book of Color and student guides. The system is analog and you could certainly teach on a 50- or 100-hue circle... but it would drive your students crazy when they got in the real world and find their way of thinking is off-interval. Therefore, yes, the Wikipedia page should talk about colors like 2.5BG 7/4 as if that's a typical color, because, it is. It correctly portrays the oddball interval of the scheme, as actually practiced real-world.71.198.81.105 (talk) 09:34, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

text:  As for changing the resolution: modern Firefox, Opera, and Safari now resize whole pages, and this works just fine for me.  Do you have a screenshot of the poor resizing? (Also, you can always just take a screenshot and scale it! :) –jacobolus (t) 21:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Professional printing often requires much larger sizes than can be viewed in a browser. SharkD (talk) 01:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I somehow missed this before. If you want to print tables of Munsell swatches “professionally”, I’d be glad to help you figure out how. I’d guess that it wouldn’t be especially useful, given that these are swatches designed to fit in the gamut of sRGB. For printing, a different set of swatches should be used. The nice thing about the print would be that you could do quality control by just comparing directly to the Munsell Book of Color. –jacobolus (t) 23:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charts as SVG images not tables 

message: The 2010 Jasper Fforde book Shades of Grey refers to Munsell and colour extensively.  In it the Chromatacia is run according to the Rules set down by "Munsell", the strength of your colour vision determines your status in life, and the Prefects that run the various towns and villages are arranged by colour.  There are many other references to colour and vision in the book.  There is no direct reference to Albert Munsell in the book, but the implication seems fairly obvious.  I have no idea whether Albert Munsell also made any observations about society and its rules.
Is it worth adding this as a real-life reference?  I'll do this on May 14th 2010 unless there are objections.  PaulWay (talk) 22:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No: That would maybe belong on an article about the book; it’s pretty irrelevant to an article about the color system. See WP:ROC and Wikipedia:HTRIV#Connective_trivia –jacobolus (t) 23:55, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to cite policy, you need to quote what you are talking about. I see nothing that says this can't be included. It's trivia, and must be integrated into the article. It would be far from the first time something has an "in popular media" section, and these have stood up to deletion scrutiny, indicating they are the true consensus absent policy to the contrary. (While a single other page having something does not mean anything, it being widespread does, so don't try to cite that policy.) — trlkly 13:54, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referenced by 

message: The caption for the figure of the Munsell chart under "Chroma" runs off the side of the page and is not fully visible. I do not know how to fix it. 128.157.160.13 (talk) 20:36, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you make a screenshot of that? I can’t reproduce the problem on any browsers here. –jacobolus (t) 21:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: FIGURE under CHROMA

message: The article says the hues are divided into 10 segments for 5 primary & 5 secondary colors, leading to 100 divisions [10*(5+5)=100], but in practice only 40 are used, a factor of 2.5.  But what exactly do these leading number 5's mean ( 5Y, 5PB )?  What does a 10Y mean?  The text does not seem to explain this well, does anybody know? Ace Frahm (talk) 06:08, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There are 5 named hues Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple, and then 5 intermediate hues YR, GY, BG, PB, RP. Each of these is placed in the center (5) of a numbered interval that goes from 0 to 10. So there are 10 intervals each of width 10. Does that clarify enough for you? –jacobolus (t) 16:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

text: At the end of the Specifying a Color section it has (see swatch).  What swatch? Broken link? Dan Bollinger (talk) 12:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Hue Specification Numbers Need Better Explanation

message: See talk: Shades of blue #Blue (Munsell). Incnis Mrsi (talk) 05:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possibly erroneous conversion 

message: I removed the following part as it was comment out and did not show up anyway:
Even then, though arguably superior to any other contemporaneous system, it was deficient by modern standards: it didn’t have the correct hues for cyan and magenta and it didn’t recognize these hues as local value peaks so it rendered the color circle of saturated colors as a linear gradient from light to dark.Gerritsen, Frans, 1984, Evolution of Colour Theory. These deficiencies have only been partly remedied. Despite the systematic errors this induces and abundant empirical data that the system cannot be perfectly validated,Kuehni, R.G., 2000, A Comparison of Five Color Order Systems, Color Research and Application, 25(2).
It was accompanied by this comment:
The cited sources don't match the statements made, which are not explained adequately.  Leaving this criticism in the article gives readers the wrong impression.
If this criticism can be better explained, it might be worth adding back to this article.  I just read the Kuehni (2000)  article, and it doesn't say anything like what is implied here.  Also, Gerritsen is apparently advocating his own color theory in his book (according to a comment on the talk page).  Maybe someone can find some criticisms of the Munsell system which are more grounded, so we can include them. --jacobolus
Tony Mach (talk) 13:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, sounds like a reasonable change. –jacobolus (t) 08:37, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Part 

message: Are we really allowed to create these charts and graphics under open source and copyleft licenses? Isn't the source data copyrighted? SharkD  Talk  07:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright of charts? 

message: Does anyone have a scan of the inside (vertical cross-section) of Munsell's color sphere and could upload it? I remember seeing one once but can't remember where. I believe it was designed sort of like the image to the right, but need some actual proof. SharkD  Talk  18:18, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No such thing as a Munsell color sphere. Perhaps you're looking for the color solid, sort of like the one here? or here? Argyriou (talk) 19:39, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

text: Looking around, I found a much better one. It's in Japanese, so I can't read it, but the picture is excellent. Argyriou (talk) 20:39, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... the sphere is talked about in the article. Quote: "Munsell’s color sphere, 1900. Later, Munsell discovered that if hue, value, and chroma were to be kept perceptually uniform, achievable surface colors could not be forced into a regular shape." Take another look. SharkD  Talk  05:34, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

text: A few views of the sphere can be found here. Munsell drew the exterior lines for latitude and longitude, but not the internal lines. So it's kind of ambiguous if Munsell's sphere matches Runge's sphere or not. SharkD  Talk  16:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

text: After several years, I found the actual internals of Munsell's color sphere in here, which is scanned from the "Atlas of the Munsell Color System" (1915 edition). So the above image I made is false. SharkD  ☎  02:06, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Munsell's sphere 

message: While preparing a document on the topic, I realized rather late that there are two orientations of the color circle. Actually it does not matter for the numeric notation, but it looks quite confusing.
Compare Munsell Hue (Derived) with A Grammar of Color (Original?). Uhw (talk) 21:10, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orientation of Hue 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: While it is true the color samples are organized in a cylindrical manner, there is evidence Munsell still held on to the belief that there was some underlying spherical nature to the organization of colors, even in later representations such as the image at right. Even the modern representation (made after Munsell's death) is sort of potato-shaped if you draw a smooth mesh around it, as can be seen in materials provided by the Munsell company on their website. SharkD  ☎  08:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cylindrical representation 

message: Break down an example like 7.0GY3.29/1.5. How do I parse that in 3 parameter?
12.3.203.132 (talk) 17:58, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: 7.0GY means 20% along the way from 5GY (green yellow) to 5G (green). 3.29 then means the value is dark whereas 1.5 means the chroma is very washed-out. But don't calculate an actual sRGB / XYZ / &c. colour value from this unless you know exactly which version of the Munsell system the author of the code was consulting as a reference and you've got actual measured data from that version.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 13:36, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Break down an example 

message: FTA: ‘Note that there is no intrinsic upper limit to chroma.’
There is though. The limit may not be the same for every hue and value, but if you crank up the chroma far enough you'll bump into the limits of the human visual system. Using after images you might inch just a little outside of the physical gamut, but you will run into a limit at some point.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 13:44, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chroma limits 

message: This is relevant to this article as well: Talk:Lightness#Comment about the V versus Y bit  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 00:26, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cross-reference to Talk:Lightness comment 

message: It would be nice to have a short section on how/where the system is applied, e.g., soil science, archaeology, food science, house paints, Berlin & Kay's use in ethnography. 2600:6C67:1C00:5F7E:59B2:9CE0:AF45:477 (talk) 15:55, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds great. Go for it! –jacobolus (t) 16:10, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Applications