Talk:History of Shaivism

message: Saivism was born in Tamilnadu, the southern most part of India. Though it spread to other parts of the country, it could not make much headway there. So even today Tamilnadu continues to be the home of Saivism. It can be dated back to Indus Valley Civilisation, but it became a distinct religion and took the name Saivism only during the period between 3rd century A.D. to 10th century A.D. 
===Salient features===
1 Siva is considered to be the supreme God. Of the god-trinity, Brahma, Vishnu and Siva,   the last is the most powerful and controls the other two.       
2 He is worshipped in two forms. One as a lingam and the other as human form. The human form has several varieities. The most important of them are Nataraja - the dancing posture and Dakshinamoorthy - the teacher instructing the four sages on the absolute truth. 
3 His consort Parvathi, his sons Ganapathi and Murugan are also worshipped in the temples.
4 There are many temples in Tamilnadu dedicated to Siva. Their architecture, lay-out, the location of various idols,  methods of worship, are all prescribed by   books called Agamas and no deviation is allowed. 
5 People also worship Siva at home. They have idols of natural lingam-shaped Salagramam stones to which they perform  ablution, flower-worship and Nivedhanam. (food offering)
6 Certain portions of the Vedas such as Rudram and Chamakam are considered adoratory  to Siva, 
7 The sacred ash forms an important part of worship. Siva is bathed in it. This is distributed to the devotees who wear it on their forehead,neck, chest and hands of the body with reverence. 
8 The sacred syllable Om is used during the worship preofusely. 
9 The five syllabled word Na-ma-si-va-ya  is considered holy and devotees consider it their duty to repeat it several times. 
10 The priests of the Siva temples are called Sivacharyas. Brahmins  are not allowed to perform the worship inside the sanctum sanctorum, which is the exclusive and hereditary privilege of Sivacharyas. 
11 Chidambaram, a town in Tamilnadu houses the famous Nataraja temple. This place is considered the holiest of Siva shrines. 
12 Thirugnana Sambandar, Thirunavukkarasar, Sundaramurthy and Manicka vachakar are considered the Gurus of Saivism. The hymns sung by the first three are collected into a book called Thevaram. The work of Manickavachakar is called Thiruvachakam. These books are reverentially worshipped and recited by the devotees. The first three form part of the 63 Nayanmars, staunch devotees of Siva.
13 Saivism had been in conflict with Vaishnavism, another sect of Hinduism, in the past. In spite of several efforts by well-meaning kings and saints, the cold war between the two still continues. 
Notes:-
===Saivism in other parts of India=== 
Of  the  12 Jyotirlinga shrines, the most famous temples dedicated to Siva,  Rameswaram alone is in Tamilnadu.  Varanasi on the banks of Ganga and Kedarnath on the Himalayas are two of them. 
===Links to the Indus Valley===
In Mohenjodaro, Harappa and other sites of western India and Pakistan , the remains of an ancient civilisation dating back to 3rd millennium B.C. have been excavated. Among the artefacts,  a lingam, a figure of a male god in Yogic posture and another surrounded by animals have been found.These Mahayogi and Pasupathi could be the precursors of Dakshinamoorthy, a form of Siva.
===Period of evolution===
Karaikkal Ammaiyar, the earliest of the 63 ardent devotees of Siva is supposed to have lived in 3rd century A.D. The Saivism as gathered from her hymns is different in many aspects from the one that prevailed in the time of Manicka vachakar (10th century A.D.), one of the four main Gurus of Saivism. Saivism can be said to have attained the present form during this period.                                    
===The god trinity===
Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are considered to be the trinity of Hindu gods. Each has a specific duty. The former creates, Vishnu protects and Siva destroys the world. In vedic times, these deities were not worshipped. These concepts evolved later.
:In Vedic times, these dieties (excluding Brahma) WERE worshipped, just not as widely as they (all but Brahma) are today. As a matter of fact, you have it backwards. The dieties (except for Brahma) were worshipped, but the concept of the Trinity came later. Armyrifle 16:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: History of Evolution of Saivism

message: Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are considered to be the trinity of Hindu gods. Each has a specific duty. The former creates, Vishnu protects and Siva destroys the world. In vedic times, these deities were not worshipped. These concepts evolved later.
:In Vedic times, these dieties (excluding Brahma) WERE worshipped, just not as widely as they (all but Brahma) are today. As a matter of fact, you have it backwards. The dieties (except for Brahma) were worshipped, but the concept of the Trinity came later. Armyrifle 16:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: '''The god trinity'''

message: Known as Vibhuti, in Sanskrit, it is made by burning dried cow dung.  It is showered on lingam and especially, Murugan as a form of honour. It is collected again and distributed to the devotees, who wear it on their foreheads with reverence. There are elaborate rules for making sacred ash.
It also is a symbolic message to people that after death people are burnt and the body turns to ashes. Hence there is no requirement to accumulate material things in the world.So every time a bhakt wear the ash on his or her forehead it should remind him / her to be humble with minimal material requirements.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.19.59.165 (talk) 09:28, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Sacred Ash'''

message: This article should be moved to comply with Wikipedia naming practice, i.e. to History of the evolution of Shaivism. But I prefer a simpler name, such as History of Shaivism or Evolution of Shaivism. Peace, QuartierLatin1968  18:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name

message: This article contains a lot of questionable content and completely lacks citation of sources, thus it is potentially in violation of Wikipedia editorial policies. We kindly request that the author specifically cite the sources used for this article before we continue the discussion. Thank you. --Japendranatha 00:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of sources 

message: Getting to work on this long article. I notice that there is another full article entitled "Shaivism", so this one should strictly cover the history with explanation of current practice relegated to Shaivism. That article has a small section on History which reads:
{main|History of Shaivism}
With its origins in India, Śaivism has appeal throughout the Hindu world. An icon resembling Siva in his aspect of Pashupata meditating in yogic pose has been found among the remains of the Indus Valley Civilization in the 3rd millennium BCE, leading to speculation that Shiva may be an ancient indigenous deity later incorporated in Vedic Hinduism. John Marshall who first excavated the sites in the Indus valley found evidence of the Linga. The Rig Veda, that can be dated to the second half of the second millennium BCE, refers to Rudra, a concept that later merged with Shiva. Some traditions credit the spreading of Śaivism into southern India to the great sage, Agastya, who is said to have brought Vedic traditions. Megasthenes, the Greek ambassador to the court of Chandragupta Maurya, refers to the worship of Shiva in the 3rd century BCE. Patanjali describes the austere asceticism of the Śaivites in the 2nd century BCE. The earliest coins with Śaivite emblems can be traced back to the Kushanas in the early centuries CE. The Śaivite school then spread to the Cham, Javanese and Khmer courts in South East Asia. The Pallava and Chola empires in South India sponsored Śaivite worship. There can be found almost innumerable Śaivite temples and shrines, with many shrines accompanied as well by murtis dedicated to Ganesha, Lord of the Ganas, followers of Śiva, and son of Śiva and Śakti. The twelve Jyotirling, or "golden Iingam", shrines are among the most esteemed in Śaivism.
This information should/will be integrated here. Big big problem of lack of citations, anticipating that the best sources are going to be written in Tamil, which I do not speak. Any help?
Very important NPOV factor will be the clear understanding that India had civilized people living there well before any English-speaker "discovered" it.
~ Otterpops 18:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The main article Shiva is also undergoing renovation at this time, so coordination will be important.  The main article also contains a very large mass of unsourced material that has accumulated over time.  Let's coordinate as much as much as possible on both of these articles. I noticed that the article is without references and added the standard sections for Notes and References per Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout.  Buddhipriya 22:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Under Construction

message: This article currently has a lot of forking issues with other other articles such as Shaivism, Shiva, Rudra, Six Schools of Shaivism, etc.  The current text seems to be an article about regional Tamil practices.  In looking at the articles for Christianity and History of Christianity they seem to have done a good job of getting the general material about the religion into the main article, and then organized the history by time periods.  That may be a good approach for this article as well.  However the regional method of organization that is used in Six Schools of Shaivism also is useful. Either way, the article on history now includes a good bit of material that needs to go elsewhere. Buddhipriya 22:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To begin the process of citing things by time period I have stubbed in a historical outline by major periods.  Additional material will be added from multiple sources, but to get something in place quickly I simply summarized key dates from the article on "The Śaiva Traditions" which in pp. 200-228 of Flood (2003).  That article provides a quick overview of the main themes.  The brief outline tries to distinguish between the pre-literate archaeological sources, the Vedic scriptural references, and then the major flow from Kashmir to the south, which is the most commonly-accepted academic view of Shaiva history.  It clairifies that the material related to Tamilnadu represents a distinct stage of development and is not the whole story. Buddhipriya 21:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganize by time periods  

message: This article was merged into :Shaivism per Talk:Shaivism#Merger proposal. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:02, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merged into [[:Shaivism]] 

message: Shaivism contains more info on the history of Shaivism than does this article; no need to resurrect it. The merger has been discussed at Talk:Shaivism#Merger proposal; no one objected. And Rockin' Rocket did not recreate the latest version, but an older version; why? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:43, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: you seem to be well-informed and in the know, so, I am not going to interrupt any further. I got involved with the affairs of the article because at NPP it was among the oldest unreviewed articles (see this). However, and make of this what you may, I would suggest that a second discussion about the merger be held because this article seemed to have significant coverage in reliable, secondary sources. Again — and I can't stress this enough — this is all my opinion. Regards, SshibumXZ (Talk) (Contributions). 05:04, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  apologies for my comment "How come you po-up here"; India-related articles can be tough editing, with a lot of pov-pushing, harassment, and wiki-hounding. Buddhakahika is a long-term abuser; I've already warned Rockin' Rocket at their talkpage because of their interest in Brahmins, which is one of the tell-tale signs of this person. Regarding the article itself: all the info is included at :Shaivism, and extended; the "sock" you're referring to, Ms Sarah Welch, is an outstanding editor who's made excellent contributions to Wikipedia, including the article on Shaivism; I hope to see them return soon (though a clarification on their link with AVC would be most appreciated, nay, inevitable). Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:12, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:   no worries. And I didn't know about the backgrounds of the two editors in question, so, I kind of misinterpreted the previous merger discussion, sorry about it. Again, I bid you good day. Regards, SshibumXZ (Talk) (Contributions). 05:52, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-creation