Talk:The Last Battle

message: will The Last battle be filmed
:Dunno. It'd be a chore, although based on his track record Peter Jackson might be up to it. Ellsworth 23:02, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope, Pete's not the one. It'll be the guy who directed The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (someone with "Andrew" in his name) Scorpionman 12:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Film

message: I had to chop out a section specifically comparing the Calormenes with Muslims. There are numerous dark-skinned races in the world, not all of whom are Muslim. Not even all Arabic people are Muslim. And there is more evidence that Lewis based the Calormene god Tash on the false gods of the Old Testament, rather than Allah. If one reads the epic books the Arabian Nights and the Shahnama, I think they will find rather close resemblances between the characters/styles and the Calormenes. MaryAnderson
Have you seen the illustrations in the original published version of Last Battle? There is absolutely no doubt that the Calormenes are portrayed as Saracens and the Narnians as Crusaders. To state this is not to equate Tash with Allah (Tash is clearly a Satan figure) but to recognise a source from which Lewis drew.
:Authors of fiction very rarely have any control over the "packaging" (cover, illustrations, even the title) that is incorporated into the finished version which is marketed by the publisher, which, after all, bears the financial risk of the work's success or failure. Unless there is proof that Lewis specifically authorized the illustrations, they have no bearing on his racial/cultural attitudes. Ellsworth 19:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Lewis was not stupid. He must have realised that the Calormenes would be read as resembling medieval Muslim Arabs. Tash is a demonic figure, of course, and may be based on pagan gods (seen as demonic by many Christians). But again, giving those characters who resemble Muslim Arabs a monotheistic religion based on the worship of Tash will inevitably make some readers think that Lewis is equating Tash with the Muslim Allah (however unlike the monstrous Tash Allah actually is). In fact, Lewis has not gone out of his way to avoid readers doing that, quite the opposite, with Tash's worshippers speaking of him in a way that has some formal and rhythmic resemblance to well-known English-language versions of how Allah commonly is spoken of. It sounds as if he is parodying Islam. It's not surprising that there is a lot of discussion around as to what Lewis was getting at with this. I have no specific changes to the article in mind, but I don't think there is any need to be soft on Lewis about the issue when it is brought up. There's other evidence that he didn't have a high opinion of Islam, so there's no reason to pretend otherwise. That said, I also see no reason to get bogged down in this in the article. It's a relatively peripheral point to this particular article. Metamagician3000 01:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Even if the Calormenes are a "conglomeration" of various eastern cultures, were they actually portrayed as polytheistic? Admittedly I have not read the books for a while, but I don't remember any textual mention that they worshipped any god other than Tash. It would be much appreciated if you could tell me where you got this idea. Not directly in response to the above poster: I feel that this is an important aspect to include in the article--I agree wholeheartedly with Metamagician3000's post. The resemblence to medieval Muslim Arabs is fairly glaring--too obvious to be an "intuitive leap" even. The political situation at Lewis' time, is not neccesarily what influenced him to create the Calormen as a parallel to Arab Muslims--to say any event in particular influenced him is to make an intentional fallacy. On another note, the commentary section needs citations. Although, I am positive there are notables who have said everything written in this section, citations add credibility--so go find them! 71.198.43.102 (talk) 01:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

text: And yet, he was probably thinking of the Muslim Arab vs Christian West situation as it appeared, not in historical reality, but in medieval literature: he was a professor of medieval literature after all.  The model would be the Song of Roland on the serious side, and Ariosto and Tasso on the more fantastic side.  In many respects, Lewis was a follower of G. K. Chesterton, who also echoed this medieval perception and had an anti-Oriental and anti-Islamic bias. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want references to the Calormenes' polytheism, see The Horse and His Boy, where Aravis says "In the name of Tash and Azaroth and Zardeenah Lady of the Night".  "Azaroth" sounds like "Ashtaroth" (supporting the Canaanite/Carthaginian theory), while "Zardeenah" sounds vaguely Persian.  So, if we want a formula for what Calormen means, it is something like "The Oriental enemy, as perceived by Europeans in different periods, whether in the form of Carthage, Persia, the Saracens or the Ottomans".  --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racial issues 

message: Removed this para:
:The "stereotype" could be easily understood, as in our world today it obvious that Christians believe the Muslims believe in a false god and false religion. Many people of both religions try to say that it is the same god, although C.S. Lewis merely writes of the popular Christian belief that this is not true.
Does anyone contend that this is not trolling? Ellsworth 21:05, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope.  It is trolling at its worst.  Good job nixing it.71.189.237.68
What trolling? I strenuously contend that this excised writing, marginalized as "trolling," instead makes perfectly accurate points that are extremely relevant/pertinent. On what rational basis does Ellsworth reason that the written material is inaccurate and unworthy of inclusion? If the grammar is deficient, then it should be fixed by strict grammarians, but the ideas are sound. On what bases are the viewpoints excluded/censored? Is the decision purely antithetical against questionably-identified "trolls," or are there more rational arguments that the material is fairly excluded? User:Olorin3k 28 April 2008  —Preceding comment was added at 14:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Views of others beliefs 

message: Dropped this sentence:
:The use of the word "Darkies" alone is probably sufficient for it to be dropped from most school libraries of today, however common a term it might have been in 1955. 
::You have to admit, the good guys (the faithful followers of Aslan) did neither invented nor used this racial slur for Calormenes. It was the neutral guys (dwarves who chose neither to follow Aslan nor to align themselves with the Calormenes) that created this racist term. It may not reflect Lewis's view, but rather the personality of these Dwarves. If I remember correctly these dwarves did not make it to Aslan's country (Narnian heaven.) I would be surprised if Lewis's attitude toward the Calormenes/Arabs was racist, as Aravis married Cor (Shasta) after she converted to the Narnian/Archenlander religion. While it is true the Narnians can be thought of as British, Archenlanders Dutch, Telmarines as Europeans that conquered England, and Calormenes as Saracens, Lewis never suggests that any race is superior, save the fact that the Calormenes are villains.--69.234.214.5 (talk) 19:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To give the most famous example, Huckleberry Finn has been the subject of occasional banning efforts, due to its seeming pro-slavery attitude and its frequent including of the "n-word". Nevertheless, it was available and, in fact, used in the curriculum, of the school where I grew up, which was not in the Southern U.S. Ellsworth 00:42, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It may be banned in some areas of the US, but I haven't ever seen it Banned in schools in the UK. Jacobshaven3 11:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could the book be banned from schools? 

message: I have removed the sentence discussing the validity of Pullman's views - this article is not the place for that, perhaps it would be better to put that discussion in an article about Pullman. Also I have removed the sentence about the Telmarines and the South Sea portal - the Telmarines were not natural rulers of Narnia and the South Sea portal was not one used by the main protagonists, the English children of the Narnia cycle. These sentences were both unnecessary rebuttals of points made in the previous sentences, and appear to have been inserted by a contributor who does not agree with criticism of the book.
The aim of the commentary section should not be to take sides, either criticising Lewis and his work, or being overly defensive of him, as that is inappropriate in a Wikipedia article. An article on a work of literature should mention and discuss issues which have been raised by critics without setting out to judge those issues or promote a particular conclusion. The racism and misogyny charges are important and an article about the book is incomplete without a mention of them, but the article should not attempt to adjudicate a debate.
I have also removed the reference to Tash being a Mexican figure - unless an independent reference to this interpretation can be supplied?
:Despite the above edits, large parts of the 'commentary' section seem rather POV to me, still biased towards denying the criticism of the book. --Urbane legend 11:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content of the Commentary section 

message: Can we agree that Su's fall is not prefigured in the other books? It is evident in P. Caspian. If memory serves, she was the last to admit to seeing Aslan, right? -- D. F. Schmidt (talk) 18:54, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Memory serves correctly.  Jacroe |  Talk 22:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What fall?  The characters were just explaining why Susan wasn't with them on the day of the fatal accident.  She could still rejoin the rest of the characters later.  It's far less serious than Ron's temporary desertion in Rowling's DEATHLY HALLOWS.  Why is such a big deal made of this? CharlesTheBold (talk) 15:43, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Su's fall 

message: To me, the article makes it look like Puzzle the donkey was in agreeance and consciously working with Shift's plan and never does it mention that it received redemption from Aslan. Nothing major, but I just don't want Puzzle getting a bad rap. --HansTAR 01:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - the comparison with the Antichrist is not with Puzzle - Puzzle is merely one of those whom the Antichrist will deceive --Tim4christ17 11:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but Puzzle is in a sense the material Antichrist (as he was the one dressed as Aslan), though duped into the role.  It is like the difference between Hodh and Loki in the death of Balder (Hodh threw the dart, but was tricked into it by Loki). --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:18, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puzzle's Role 

message: After passing the stable door Lucy tells Tirian that "in our world, too, a Stable once had something inside it that was bigger than our whole world." What is she talking about here (just out of curiosity)? I don't think I've ever heard of such a story (although it could be referring to the birth of Jesus) Scorpionman 02:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Lewis's point of view the Christ would also be literally bigger, corresponding to an infinite reality.--MWAK 12:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  stable 

message: I think the chapter listings for the Chronicles of Narnia books should be removed. I started a discussion at Talk:The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe#Chapters--roger6106 03:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consider it done. They are unneccessary. b_cubed 03:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapters 

message: A lot of people seem to be reading their own religious points of view into the story. Lewis never said anything about Susan "falling" or being doomed; he was just explaining why she wasn't with the group when they got killed in the accident.  Nor did Lewis say that "those who are allowed into Aslan's country on whether or not they believed and obeyed him"; on the contrary he devotes three pages to Aslan's welcoming of the non-believer Emeth.  The racial slurs are used only by unsympathetic characters, never the ones he wants us to admire, so we can assume they don't represent his own racial views.  Stop trying to pigeonhole Lewis as a narrow-minded bigot, which he wasn't.
CharlesTheBold (talk) 23:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  too much POV 

message: Shift persuades Puzzle to wear the skin of lion.  This is not merely from the imagination of Lewis, but echoing a story from Aesop, "The Ass in the Lion's Skin". There, the donkey in the lion's skin terrifies animals. I inserted a wikilink to the article "The Ass in the Lion's Skin", but another editor thought it was not relevant and deleted it. What do other editors think?Pete unseth (talk) 16:19, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's original research unless you have a source that makes it clear that Lewis was inspired by Aesop. DonIago (talk) 16:31, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul Ford (Companion to Narnia, p. 359, footnote to "Puzzle") draws the reader's attention to Aesop. David Downing (Into the Wardrobe, p. 55, discussing Puzzle) says "With his typical creative synthesis, though, Lewis also draws on one of Aesop's fables to tell the story of Narnia's final days."  Lewis was certainly familiar with Aesop: it was standard fare for Edwardian kids, and surfaces almost explicitly in the mice gnawing at Aslan's bonds in LWW. I think it's reasonable to include it here. -- Elphion (talk) 17:14, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me. DonIago (talk) 17:39, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Ass in the Lion's Skin" from Aesop -- should it be mentioned here