Talk:Linux/Archive 12

message: :::::::::* "Moreover, you even know what the "G" in the GPL the Linux kernel bears means?" It means "general", not "GNU". — A.M. 23:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * I included the wikilink so it could be followed. GPL means "GNU General Public License". I don't know where you got the idea that G comes from "General" and not from "GNU". To me GPL is a modification of a cacophonic GGPL acronim, collapsing both Gs into one. Maybe you know better. However, this is a moot point. The point is GPL is GNU. — Isilanes 13:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * He possibly got it from http://www.gnu.org/licenses/ which specifically uses "GNU GPL". Your conclusion is bogus. Chris Cunningham 18:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * No, the "G" in "GPL" stands for "General". So "GPL" is short for just "General Public License". There could be plenty of them. If you want to refer to the GNU General Public License say it or make it short "GNU GPL". -- mms 23:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * There could be plenty of General Public Licenses. However, there is only one GPL, and this is the GNU General Public License. Or, in other words, GPL is 99.99% of times used to refer to the GNU GPL, much more predominantly than Linux to refer to the "Linux OS". Either accept that, or redirect GPL to General Public License, instead of to GNU General Public License (moreover, the former also redirects to the latter). Okay, I made a mistake implying that G stands for GNU. Yes, it stands for General. Now, I repeat: this is a moot point. I said "Moreover, you even know what the "G" in the GPL the Linux kernel bears means?". What I meant was: "Do you know that the Linux kernel is also under the GNU General Public License?". However, given the answers above, it seems that they idea got through pretty nicely (all of you realized I was referring to GNU, although actually I could have been referring to "General"). Obviously, all the rest is just nitpicking to generate a smoke curtain to ignore my point. — Isilanes 13:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you make a good point there. The term GPL could be used to refer to any license called 'General Public License' - as that is the correct usage (note the use of 'correct'). However, in the real world the term is used to refer to the GNU General Public License by the majority of people - much the same as Linux is used by the majority of people to describe the OS by the same name - regardless of the 'correctness' of it (also, who is to say what is correct?). -Localzuk(talk) 13:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What means the "G" in GPL? 

message: This is simple.
# As a scientific document, Wikipedia follows scientific convention wherever possible. This means that in general, if an authority (say, a standards organisation, or an official naming body, or whatever) uses a specific term for a subject then Wikipedia uses it.
# No such authority exists for operating systems. Historically they have been named by their vendors, who may have a half-dozen contradictory names for their operating systems. (Sun are particularly good at this). In each case, lacking any authority other than the vendor, articles are titled by whatever the vendor currently refers to them as.
# Regardless of any supposed normative name for an OS built with GNU components, no authority exists to officially name operating systems using some GNU code. The original plan was for there to be one GNU operating system, called GNU, built with a GNU kernel. Linus Torvalds did not plan to be a part of that operating system ("won't be big and professional like gnu"). The FSF is not an authority in naming operating systems. (see also: aluminium, where an authority exists to name the substance.)
# In the absence of an authority which can credibly name the OS, the next best bet is vendors (who generally use "Linux") and popular perception (which is overwhelmingly "Linux"). So as far as picking a name for the article, it has to be "Linux". "GNU/Linux" is just another vendor term. Any other conclusion lends undue weight to a minority position, and any claim to GNU/Linux being normative is POV in absence of any historical or authoritative evidence to the contrary.
# In the future this won't be an issue at all. The FSF will pick one kernel, run with it, call the whole thing GNU and leave everyone else alone. And everything will be happy bunnies and unicorns again.
Call this a position statement. No appeal to fairness, or history, or empiral LOC counts has any value insofar as that no operating system to date has been named in this way. Should the term ever approach the popularity of "Linux" (which has been an ongoing campaign for years) then this can and should be revisited, but until then there's little point in argument.
I now return you to your usual scheduled flame wars. Chris Cunningham 11:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aluminium is a bad example. Aluminium existed before mankind and will exist further when there is no man left. No one has the authority to decide how to name it. You thought of the U.S. American Chemical Society I guess. But they are just that what their name implies. Not relevant for me. GNU on the other hand didn't exist before and wouldn't exist today if there wasn't the GNU Project. Doesn't Wikipedia agree to name articles of products after the names their vendors give them? -- mms 13:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I use Linux, but I never bought GNU. GNU code is actually a small part of the system that I use, and my vendor calls it Linux. Please go and troll my vendor not Wikipedia. -- AdrianTM 15:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  Chris: "In the future this won't be an issue at all. The FSF will pick one kernel, run with it, call the whole thing GNU and leave everyone else alone. And everything will be happy bunnies and unicorns again.". But they can do it now, can't they? I mean, Linux is free software, after all (Under the GPL, if this matters. The GNU General Public License, that is). So the FSF can take their GNU soft, plus any other free soft, plus the Linux kernel, and name the whole beast "GNU", can't they? Or is freedom only one-way? Shouldn't Linus "let go" his free product? Adrian: "I use Linux, but I never bought GNU. GNU code is actually a small part of the system that I use, and my vendor calls it Linux." But I use GNU/Linux (Debian), I never bought Linux. Linux kernel code is actually a small part of the system that I use (smaller a part than GNU code, if this matters), and my vendor calls it GNU/Linux. Anecdote against anecdote, both meaningless. — Isilanes 16:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  They can call it whatever they want, but in the absence of any authority it's just another vendor term. And Linus Torvalds has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument I'm presenting. For the sake of all that is holy please read the point given instead of getting bogged down in these stupid flame wars. Chris Cunningham 16:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summation of the counter-GNU argument 

message: (IPA pronunciation: /ˈlɪnʌks/) -- is this correct? -- AdrianTM 23:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: * Linux is undisputely – at least among other things – a kernel and this was undisputely initially created by Linus Torvalds in 1991 (hence the name). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mms (talk • contribs).
* GNU is undisputely an operating system which development started 1983. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mms (talk • contribs).
* It is suggested by some that all free software that today exists is due to the GNU Project. The wide spread use of its licenses should be one proof. The documents listed in http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu.html also support this view but of course the source is considered biased by the opponents. People who share this POV also (mostly) accept the GNU Project or the Free Software Foundation as the authority in naming free operating systems. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mms (talk • contribs).
* The GNU Project and its sympathizers see the operating system (type) which is now sold as "Red Hat Linux 9" and such as a variant of GNU which uses Linux, the kernel, instead of the original GNU-kernel GNU Hurd. They suggest the name "GNU/Linux" for it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mms (talk • contribs).
* Linus Torvalds and his sympathizers call also the operating system "Linux" since they switched the license to the GNU General Public License in 1992 and integrated the kernel in GNU. They say it is by far the most common name now for this operating system and the GNU people want to rename it so they get more credit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mms (talk • contribs).
* The GNU Project called their operating system ever since "GNU". When Linux (kernel) was used with GNU they thought it was no question that this still would be GNU, but not the original but a variant of it. When the GNU/Linux naming controversy began Richard Stallman also suggested the name "LiGNUx", but stopped that try and now suggests "GNU/Linux". The shortest legitimate name for this system would be "GNU". So they say, the other side has renamed the system. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mms (talk • contribs).
* Besides the disputed accuracy argument there is a practical argument supporting to use "GNU/Linux" for what now is named "Linux" in Wikipedia. If the kernel and and operating system based on it are both named the same, this is a source of massive confusion. Was it initiated 1983 or 1991? Was is free software from the beginning or was is proprietary at first? Was it just another Unix-like system or was is something revolutionary new? How can a system based on "Ubuntu Linux" not be also be based on "Linux" (see Talk:Nexenta OS)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mms (talk • contribs).
* There are other Linux-based systems (Linux as in kernel) which no one wants to name "GNU/Linux". They use Linux (kernel) but no part of GNU or very few. That is the only thing they have in common with the systems we call in Wikipedia "Linux" and some suggest to call "GNU/Linux". If someone decides to write an article about Linux-based systems in general, the article which is now called Linux should be linked by referring to it as one variant. This is already made the other way round in the article GNU variants. With this nomenclature – which is also suggested by the GNU Project – there would be minimal confusion. Within this nomenclature everything is clear. The only downside would be that readers looking for the article about "Linux" expect most likely an article about the wide spread operating system (no embedded systems but the ones with KDE and GNOME) and not about a kernel, which would be the case if the suggested nomenclature was applied. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mms (talk • contribs).
* "If someone decides to write an article about Linux-based systems in general, [...]" There already are at least two articles about Linux-based systems in general: Linux (this article) and Linux distribution. There should not be yet another such article created, because it would be a content fork. — A.M. 19:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statements by editors previously involved in dispute