Talk:Al-Sahifa al-sajjadiyya

message: Why are there so many External links to Al-islam.org, but no references or citations? --72.75.85.159 09:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Al-islam.org

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BetacommandBot (talk) 13:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Sahifa3.jpg

message: Hi. Since this article is incomplete, some related issues is not attended, references is not available, and also does not have an appropriate structure, I'm going to complete this page and preparing a draft that will eventually move it into the page. M.Sakhaie (talk) 06:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  new article 

message: M.Sakhaie: I have changed the first sentence of the article to make clear that Sajjad is the great-grandson of Muhammad.  I hope this is what you meant to say.  I have also added the date of the Battle of Karbala, but not the Islamic calendar date.  Perhaps you could add this.  ~ P-123 (talk) 16:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: M.Sakhaie:  Can I be clear about one thing, please?  Sajjad was not the actual author of the supplications, he collected these prayers from various sources and wrote them down in this book, al-Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya; is that correct or not?  (I am referring to the supplications here, not the later addenda.)  It is not very clear, because the article says at one point: "In several supplications Imam Sajjad explains the concept of Imamate (leadership). He explains what Imamate means ..." etc, which suggests that he is the author.  ~ P-123 (talk) 23:02, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did not understand what you mean is exacly. But I should say: All supplications belong to Imam Sajjad and these supplication is not from various sources. I did not know is he write supplications by himself or not. But I know he say the supplications and his sons write them, like dictation. It might be useful to say that these supplication is reached us from different ways (as it is Mutawatir). M.Sakhaie 07:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Those supplications are in fact the exact words that Imam Sajjad used to say when praying or worshiping the almighty Allah. Is it clear now? Mhhossein (talk) 08:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Mhhossein:  But did he actually write the words, was he  the author? See my question to M.Sak above. They are mutawatir, i.e. handed down by a succession of people, which suggests he was not.  The article says at one point: "According to Shia tradition, Imam Sajjad had collected his supplications and taught them to his families, particularly his sons, Muhammad al-Baqir and Zayd."  That  - "collected" - suggests he did not write them himself, but the first sentence of the article says this "is a book of supplications composed by Sajjad, the great-grandson of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad." It is not clear what "composed" there means. The article also says, "In several supplications Imam Sajjad explains the concept of Imamate (leadership)."  That suggests that he was the author of at least some of the supplications and that they were not all mutawatir.  So there is a contradiction in the article, isn't there?  ~ P-123 (talk) 08:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been wrongly assuming that Sajjad "inherited" these supplications through mutawatir, whereas mutawatir in this article refers to the subsequent handing-down of his supplications.  My misunderstanding was cleared up by Mhhossein's explanation below of how the book came into existence. ~ P-123 (talk) 17:12, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Queries

message: Could you please explain why you did this edit? I think we don't need it there, but I'd like to know  what made you do that. Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 08:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Mhhossein:  Handing down words by a succession of people over a long time through spoken repetition (which I understand is mutawatir), instead of passing them down those words in written form, is called the oral tradition (see wikilink I gave). But perhaps I have misunderstood what mutawatir is.  "Oral" means by mouth.  I thought that addition might help readers, but perhaps not. ~ P-123 (talk) 09:04, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have looked at the wiki on mutawatir again and it just refers to "narration".  Narration can be either oral or written.  So I was wrong about "oral tradition".  I will remove those words!  ~ P-123 (talk) 09:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think Mutawatir has a special meaning from hadith science point of view. Mhhossein (talk) 18:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:   We definitely need a better description of mutawatir than is in the article now.  When I first saw the word in the Lead, I thought "What's that?", looked at the wikilink, but was still not clear what "the book is mutawatir" in the Lead meant! That wiki description of the word is a little muddled. It is said several times in this article that the book "is mutawatir" and I think the uninformed reader needs clear help on this.  M.Sak says he is working on a better description (see "Queries") so perhaps we should wait for him. ~ P-123 (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oral tradition 

message: When reading the article again what became more and more clear to me is that this book has a strong political aspect.  M.Sak wrote more about this in answer to one of my questions about the text (search on "Manifesto" to find where he wrote about this).  I think this political aspect deserves to be brought out more and should be expanded on in the article, and that the dichotomy between the book as a book of prayer and as a book with a political message should be emphasised.  I think this could be achieved by splitting the "Contents" section into two named subsections ("As a book of prayer" and "Political aspect", for example).  I really think the passages in the article which describe the political aspect should be brought together, clarified and expanded on, to highlight more how the book played a part in the uprising against the Ummayads. Again, I am speaking from a position of ignorance, so you may disagree with this, but I think uninformed readers would be very interested to learn more about this aspect of the book.  What do you think?  ~ P-123 (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You just hit the nail on the head. Political aspects of the book is of a great importance, so we have to highlight this fact in a separate section called "Political aspect", but we can't have this section under "Contents" because we can't separate the prayers from their political aspects (the subsections that you are suggested make readers think that political texts are a separate part of this Sahifa.) However, thank you for such a nice suggestion. Mhhossein (talk) 18:46, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, the relationship between the book as a collection of prayers and the book's political aspect is probably too complex to split it as simply as I suggested, into two subsections - but not necessarily for the reason you said, that readers would be misled into thinking there was a separate political text in the book. I cannot begin to think of a way to describe how the supplications were used politically against the Umayyads, but that stems from my ignorance and particularly as it is not really explained in the article.  Someone more knowledgeable would have to describe it!  Who can do that?  More work for M.Sakhaie, perhaps?  He seems very knowledgeable about the history around the time when Sajjad was active. ~ P-123 (talk) 19:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Political aspect

message: A summary of the recent edits:
* There were concerns about the reliability of the sources in "Christian views". The revision reflects the Western scholarly view about Al-Sahifa which is probably a good enough replacement for.
* The whispered prayers are often included as part of Al-Sahifa and the revision reflects this point, e.g., their titles are included in the "Content" section.
* Chittick's views about the authenticity of Al-Sahifa are better summarized in the revision, including a better definition of mutawatir.
* "Background" doesn't seem like a good fit here and its content was merged with "Content" into a bigger section "About the book". 
* Given their positive bias, the Shia sources (in Persian) degraded the credibility of the article (in my view) and, I think, they are almost entirely unnecessary as I was able to replace them with similar content from the more mainstream academic sources. The only exceptions are the "Strategic importance" section and the statements against the Umayyads. Those remain in the article (after some copy-editing). It is, however, difficult to know how reliable those claims are. To make things worse, those sources are behind a paywall. 
* Statement like "many scholars" say this or that have been replaced with more specific and verifiable claims. 
* Uninformative claims like the following were replaced with specific statements. "In the form of supplication, it expresses Islamic knowledge and thought and involves all aspects of individual, social, economical, political and cultural life. Reason, human feelings, emotions and conscience are all addressed by it" or "According to scholars, Al-Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya exhibits the highest level of eloquence"... Albertatiran (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revised article