Talk:Pilaf

message: Historic pulao only had vegetables and rice, no meat.  The meat (especially beef/pork) were added in as the dish traveled west.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.73.28.110 (talk) 14:39, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pulao in Sanskrit 

message: On the history section, there are clear policy violations beginning on this paragraph:
"Uzbek Pilav – there are so many types, tastes and legends of this national dish. It is the king and masterpiece of Uzbek cuisine. No single fest or family
event is celebrated without pilav. Each region of Uzbekistan cooks its unique type of pilav, as well as there are its own type of pilav for each event.
Although it is not possible to display every single type of Uzbek pilav in a single page, we have listed here some of the famous types of pilav, with related
photos and descriptions, that is worth to taste on your next trip to Uzbekistan."
* It's clear this was taken from a webpage about uzbek food.
* The style is not right and it doesn't even make a lot of sense in isolation.
83.165.97.105 (talk) 01:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potentia copyright violation and non-encyclopaedic style 

message: The P-dish is a basic rice dish. It is over ambitious to assume that this simple rice dish would have to originate in one place and spread. People in any rice and spice producing region would have figured out how to make flavored rice in myriad variations. It does seem apparent that everywhere the same dish is adapted to what was locally grow-able.  The dish would have been prepare-able long before Alexander. 
The origin of the word however could have a verifiable record in literature, possibly might be greek/turkish/persian/sanskrit/any of the oldest languages etc. There are many words that span Germanic, central asian, Indic, given indo-arabic-germanic trade-routes. The use of a word might catch on. However, in this article there isn't any citation or proof of the earliest use of the word of the P-dish.
This article needs a rewrite. Just explain what the dish really is and subsections as how each region has its own adaptation alphabetically in a neutral manner. The Etymology if cite-able, could be moved into its own subsection. The history is just concocted and might as well be deleted. 
Hgkamath (talk) 06:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Highly biased 

message: to the poster that says Plov is not used in English, Hes obviously not from queens,which has a large (Jewish)Uzbek comunity, Plov isnt just generic, it has a special recipe and a specific taste, trust me ive eaten it at over 20 restaurants in rego park. Shwarma,Donner & Gyro all have their own article despite similarity to eachother because they all have defined "standard tastes"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.66 (talk) 16:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate plov from Pilaf 

message: Method: fry spices - cardamom, cloves, cinamon - and onion; add DRY rice and fry until it becomes white, rather than pearly; then add liquid - preferably stock; cook until tender, adding more liquid as necessary. [Source: little old lady in Bombay Resaurant, Manchester ~1959]
(anonymous) moved here by --Jpbrenna 19:13, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: The document says the following:
The word pilau is of Persian origin. However, in modern Persian, it is pronounced polo (پلو), with the first syllabe short, and the second long. Note also the relationship to Spanish 'paella', so it covers the whole extent of the Arab empire in its prime. The pilaf was probably a standard Moorish method for cooking rice - with no wasted water, important in desert regions like North Africa. It was likely introduced to the Balkans during the Ottoman period.
Yet the page for Paella says:
The name paella is the word for "frying pan" in Valencian/Catalan (from Latin patella). However, the dish has become so popular in Spanish that the word paellera is now usually used for the pan and paella almost exclusively for the dish. Paella is pronounced IPA: /pa'eʎa/, approximately "pah-EH-yah".
What's more, I distinctly remember reading in a tour book to a Central Asian country (Uzbekistan, I believe), that the word originates from greek Poluv, meaning "mixed" and was spread during Macedonian conquests. Is there any confirmation on the pilau origins? User:Bobby Isosceles
:[http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=pilaf&searchmode=none doesn't trace pilaw to a PIE root, so it may be a loan into Persian from a non-IE language. Citing references for a definite Persian origin is the policy. I do not think it derives from a Greek word however. Alexander 007 13:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the word [[Pilaf]] 

message: Plov is not used in English, but pilaf is a common food item in stores. -Iopq 06:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge it with the Plov article? 

message: What's the difference between Pilaf and Biryani, since they both seem to involve the same methods of preparation/ingredients, as well as originating in the Iran-Central Asia- northern India region? Le Anh-Huy 08:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: pulao doesnt use much spices, it is infact cooked with a soup called yakhni and i think the spices are not grounded and every spice is boiled in a pot in their original shape and made into a soup called yakhni. pulao tastes like a soup and rice is i think cooked with the meat. where as biryani meat is cooked separately from the rice, its like a thick curry and uses lots of grounded spices rice is then steamed with the meat and curry for quite some time before they are eventually mixed together. Pulao is an inferior version of biryani and here when one's biryani is not cooked well, its declared pulao.115.135.130.182 (talk) 13:59, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Pilaf vursus Biryani

message: Pilau is also a very popular dish in East Africa, though it has not been mentioned in the text. The dish has been brought there by indian settlers and arabic merchants, today it is a dish prepared and served on celebrations and other festivities by africans and Indians alike.--80.78.216.88 (talk) 21:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Need a reference for this, can you find one? Kat (talk) 16:35, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Pilau

message: We have cooked from this Cypriat cook book for many years.  I am now intetrested in buckwheat as an ingredient but it is not wheat at all.  But pnigouri is a wheat, or is it?  So could I use buckwheat in place of pnigouri is my question. 78.146.141.145 (talk) 11:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is Pnigouri (ground wheat)? 

message: Maybe we could note the spanish paella here? The same idea, close technologies - and almost the same names.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.214.145 (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Polau ≠ paella, although the two dishes are very similar in cooking style and spice ingredients. Added link to "see also". Kat (talk) 16:36, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Pilau = Paella. it traveled to Spain through the arab/ north African berber control of the area starting in the 7th century. Its the same thing....rice with meat (seafood). and vegetable the same dish. Jambalaya the Louisiana dish in the U.S is derived from paella.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starbwoy (talk • contribs) 01:21, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pilau = Paella? 

message: the word pulao is derived from sanskrit palanna;pal(meat)+anna(rice),not your pulaka.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.5.66 (talk) 10:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide a reference for this? For example, a link to the etymology of the words polow, pilaf, pilau or plov? Kat (talk) 16:50, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect we have an amalgam of similar, but separate evolved, names and dishes: pulao is an Indian rice with additional vegetables and, sometimes, meat, and according to an Indian chef on BBC1 this morning, derived from the Hindi word for yellow; pilaf is of west Asian origin, has the rice cooked with spices, and according to this article is etymologically derived from "lump of boiled rice".  The concepts are now (at least in UK restaurants) inextricably confused with a compositesite compromise of a name pilau, but our article is dealing with things not very closely related simply because their names get confused.  I suspect what it really needs is a knowledgeable editor to separate pulao from pilaf as distinct articles, with pilau as a disambiguator and hatnotes of mutual cross-reference in both. Kevin McE (talk) 10:43, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  origin of word pulao 

message: This article contains so much original research, so many uncited claims and so much non-encyclopedian information that I deemed it beyond repair. Consequently I initiated a complete rewrite. I suggest appropriate information (images etc) be gradually incorporated from the old article into this one. ✎ HannesP · talk 11:40, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete rewrite 

message: I would suggest that the Oxford or Penguin Companion to Food by Alan Davidson be added as a reference. I'm talking about the 2002 edition  (there is a more recent edition but I don't have it). The 2002 edition has an interesting and authoritative article on Pilaf by written by Charles Perry, a leading authority on Medieval Arab Cookery. Although I have not looked at it, another possible authoritative reference is Medieval Arab Cookery by Charles Perry, A.J. Arberry and Maxine Rodinson. --Bjdoyle (talk) 05:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested Reference 

message: It may be just my personal taste, but I find that the previous illustration in the infobox had a much higher quality than the new one. 
File:Polu.jpg|Previous
File:Azerbaijani plov.JPG|New
Is there a deeper reason for the change apart from the aesthetics? --Off-shell (talk) 21:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main illustration 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: No reason it should be separate, nothing remarkable when all the variations are here.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 05:01, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  merge Osh (dish) 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Pilaf. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Please expand the collapsed box below to view details of eight high quality sources which together make a clear case that the style of cooking rice, that we call pilaf, or pilau, or pulao, originated in West- or Central Asia, not in India.  Rice and its cultivation did spread from India to Iran many millenniums ago, but this unique form of cooking rice was brought back to India by the Muslims.  Sources 1 and 8, in particular, make explicit mention of the book of KT Achaya, Indian Food: A Historical Companion, whose every obscure footnote is being milked by nationalist India-POV editors on this page to claim an Indian origin for pilaf.
Expand to see reliable secondary sources, including 1)  2)  3)  4)   5)  6)  7)   8)
1 
**Quote: "(pp. 164–165) Although there are several dozen recipes for rice, oddly there is no mention of pulao, which The Oxford Companion to Food defines as 'a Middle Eastern method of cooking rice so that every grain remains separate'. Pulao or pilaf is usually flavoured with meat or vegetables and cooked in ghee. Its origin is uncertain. Descriptions of the basic technique appear in thirteenth-century Arab cookbooks, although the name pulao is not used. The word itself is medieval Farsi, and the dish may have been created in the early sixteenth century at the Safavid court in Persia. The earliest reference to pulao in English is in the writings of Edward Terry (the chaplain to Sir Thomas Roe, English ambassador to the Mughal court) in 1616: 'Sometimes they boil pieces of flesh or hens, or other fowl, cut in pieces in their rice, which they call pillaw."6 Although dishes combining rice, meat and spices were prepared in ancient times, the technique of first sautéing the rice in ghee and then cooking it slowly to keep the grains separate probably came later with the Mughals. " 
2. 
**"(p1143) Under the Abbassids, for example (ninth to twelfth century), during the Golden Age of Islam, there was one single empire from Afghanistan to Spain and the North of Arabia. The size of the empire allowed many foods to spread throughout the Middle East. From India, rice went to Syria, Iraq, and Iran, and eventually, it became known and cultivated all the way to Spain. ....  Many dishes of that period are still prepared today with ingredients available to the common people. Some of these are vinegar preserves, roasted meat, and cooked livers, which could be bought in the streets, eaten in the shops, or taken home. Such dishes considerably influenced medieval European and Indian cookery; for example, paella, which evolved from pulao, and pilaf and meat patties that started out as samosa or sambusak. 
**"(p1144) As noted, Iranians have a unique method of preparing rice. This method is designed to leave the grains separate and tasty, making the rice fluffy and very flavorful. After soaking, parboiling, and draining, the rice is poured into a dish smeared with melted butter. The lid is then sealed tightly with a cloth and a paste of flour and water. The last stage is to steam it on low heat for about half an hour, after which the rice is removed and fluffed. The golden crust on the bottom of the pan, or tab-dig, is crumbled on top or served separately."
**"(p1150)In contrast to this rugged fare, a Maharashtran meal starts with a sweet, eaten with a puri or chapati. Maharashtra is rich in seafood and coconuts, and both are often blended together. Every morning the ladies of many houses begin their day by grinding coconut and spices on a grinding stone. The milk of the coconut is also present in practically every dish, even in pullao) (flavored rice, the Indian rendition of the Turkish pilaf). 
**"(p. 1151) As we have noted, Islam also strongly imposed itself on the cookery of the subcontinent for religious, as well as for purely gastronomic, reasons. Although a late cultural and religious arrival, Islam came to India via many channels. Arab traders, Afghan and Turk soldiers, along with Iranian administrators, all settled down there and made converts to their religion, as well as to portions of their culture. If Hinduism has given a high spiritual content to the meal, it has paid little attention to the art of cooking. Boiled cereals and griddle bread, stewed vegetables, and pulses had been the usual diet since the beginning of Indian civilization. Islam gave to Indian cookery its masterpiece dishes from the Middle East. These include pilau (from Iranian pollo and Turkish pilaf), samossa (Turkish sambussak), shir kurma (dates and milk), kebabs, sherbet, stuffed vegetables, oven bread, and confections (halvah). Such dishes became so well acclimated in India that vegetarian versions of them were elaborated. It is this cross-cultural art that is now acclaimed all around the world." 
3.   
**Quote: "(page 74) Muslim influence on the style and substance of Indian food was profound. K.T. Achaya writes that the Muslims imported a new refinement and a courtly etiquette of both group and individual dining into the austere dining ambience of Hindu society.'° Coming originally from modern Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Kazakhstan, the Mughals initially had a culinary style influenced by the nomadic life-style of the steppes, revolving around simple grilling and boiling. The later refinement, as Sami Zubaida contends, came mainly from Persian sources, especially after Babur's son, Humayun, came back to India after spending a long period of exile in Kabul and the Safavid imperial court in Iran. He brought with him an entourage of Persian cooks who introduced the rich and elaborate rice cookery of the Safavid courts to India, combining Indian spices and Persian arts into a rich fusion that became the iconic dish of Islamic South Asian cuisine, the biryani." In general, during the centuries of Muslim rule food items native to India were enriched with nuts, raisins and other dried fruits, saffron, musk, asafetida and other aromatic spices, and liberal doses of clarified butter (ghee). These materials went into the making of meat and rice dishes (pulao), marinated meat (kabab) grilled usually in a clay oven traditionally sunk into the ground (tandoor), oven-baked or fried flatbreads (naan or paratha), spicy stews of rice and lentils (khichri), pastries with savory fillings (samosa), desserts (halwa), and sweetened drinks (falooda, sherbet)."
4. 
**Quote: (page 624):  "pilaf or pilau, a Middle Eastern method of cooking rice so that every grain remains separate, and the name of the resulting dish. Usually a flavouring such as meat (usually lamb) or vegetables is cooked along with it, but plain rice, known as sade pilav (Turkish), rut mufal-fal (Arabic), or chelo (Farsi), can also be cooked by this technique. The word comes from the medieval Farsi pulaw, now pronounced polo. Most European languages have borrowed the Turkish form pilav, which is clearly related to the Russian and C. Asian ploy (a term which coexists in the C. Asian Republics with palaw). Since the word has no credible Persian etymology, it might be Indian. However, there is no evidence that rice was cooked by this technique in India before the Muslim invasions, and Indians themselves associate pilaf-making with Muslim cities such as Hyderabad, Lucknow, and Delhi. .... The first descriptions of the pilaf technique appear in the 13th-century Arabic books Kitab al-Tabikh and Kitab al-Witsla ila al Habib, written in Baghdad and Syria, respectively. They show the technique in its entirety, including the cloth beneath the lid, and describe still-current flavourings such as meat, pulses, and fruit. The Arab name, ruzz mufalfal, means 'peppered rice; but not with any implication that it is flavoured with pepper. The 13th-century recipes say to cook the rice 'until it is mufalfal; showing that the word refers to the appearance of the rice, plumped up in grains as separate as peppercorns. "
**Quote: "(page 625) In India pulao is associated with the cookery of the Moghul courts (see MOGHUL CUISINE) and extremely elaborate recipes with flowery Persian names (such as Nazar pasand, thousand delights) are current. The flavourings are such things as whole game birds, the yogurt-and cream-enriched stews called KORMA, and many combinations of fruits and nuts. Much about the spicy and extravagant flavourings may be characteristically Indian, but the pilaf cooking method contrasts with the local traditions of S. India, where the recipes do not aim at keeping the grains of rice separate. The typical indigenous rice dishes are porridges, puddings, and cakes made from ground rice." 
'5. 
**Quote: "(page ) Pilaf is a fancy name for a one-pot meal with rice or another grain as its base. The traditional pilaf, which originated in the Middle East over seven hundred years ago, is cooked so the rice grains are fluffy but separate, rather than sticking together. In Iran and other parts of the Middle East, rice is often combined with fruits like quince, sour cherry, and pomegranate. Different combinations are used in other parts of the world. Pilafs contain meat and vegetables in Central Asia, fish in Turkey, and curry or other strong spices in India. in some culinary traditions, pilafs contain many different kinds of vegetables, fruits, and nuts as well as meat." 
6. 
**Quote: "(p. 25)   On his return, Humayun brought with him a strong preference for Persian culture and a large number of Persian cooks. These cooks imported into India a Persian cuisine, developed five centuries earlier under the Abbasid caliphs of Baghdad. Between the eighth and tenth centuries, when they were at the height of their power, the caliphs had lavished vast sums on their kitchens. Their expenditure on food was matched by their gluttony—Caliph al-Mansur (754-775) is supposed to have died of overeating.33 Cooks from all over the Muslim world—Turkey, Arabia, Egypt—gathered at Baghdad and incorporated their own local dishes into the courtly culinary repertoire. Even Indian cooks arrived from Sind (the southern part of what is now Pakistan), which had been conquered by the Arabs in 713. They were known for their trustworthiness, their ingenuity, and their extremely spicy dishes.' The piece de resistance of Persian cuisine was pilau. At the caliphs' court, the pilau that the nomadic shepherds prepared over their campfires was transformed into an exquisite and delicate dish.
**Quote: "(p. 26)  From Persia, pilau spread throughout the Muslim world. In Turkey it was called pilay. In Spain, with the addition of seafood and an emphasis on saffron, it became paella. In Italy, butter transformed it into risotto. In India, where Persian and central Asian culture fused with that of Hindustan, pilau was to undergo yet another transformation in the kitchens of the next Mughal emperor. 
**Quote: "(p. 27)  The same process of synthesis went on in the kitchens. Here, the delicately flavored Persian pilau met the pungent and spicy rice dishes of Hindustan to create the classic Mughlai dish, biryani. One of the most distinctive Persian culinary techniques was to marinate meat in curds (yogurt). For biryani, onions, garlic, almonds, and spices were added to the curds, to make a thick paste that coated the meat. Once it had marinated, the meat was briefly fried, before being transferred to a pot. Then, following the cooking technique for pilau, partially cooked rice was heaped over the meat. Saffron soaked in milk was poured over the rice to give it color and aroma, and the whole dish was covered tightly and cooked slowly, with hot coals on the lid and around the bottom of the pot, just as with pilau. The resultant biryani was a much spicier Indian version of the Persian pilau. Nowadays, it is a favorite dish at Indian wedding celebrations."
7. 
**Quote: "(      Pilau, also known as pilaf, polo, or pullow (there are still more spellings), is long-grain rice that has been washed and presoaked. The rice is briefly browned in fat, and then a flavorful broth is added, usually in the proportion of two parts liquid to one part rice by volume. Other ingredients, such as chicken or seafood, may be added to the rice as it simmers. Pilau most likely originated in Iran, and it traveled to Europe and South Asia after the expansion of Islam. A number of dishes related to pilaf, including arroz con polio (chicken and rice), paella (a complex dish made with chicken and several types of shellfish), and jambalaya (a spicy dish from New Orleans that might also contain ham, sausage, chicken, or shellfish with vegetables) are all enjoyed in the United States."
8. 
**Quote: " (p. 11)  Not merely ingredients came to the subcontinent, but also recipes. Recently food historian K.T. Achaya has demoralized Indian nationalists further by suggesting that the venerable idli, the pride of South Indians of all hues, acquired its present form from Indonesian kings who visited India to look for brides (Achaya, 1998a: 104-5). It is a homeomorphic equivalent, as Raimundo Panikkar might say, of the Chinese rice ball. Likewise, jalebi, Achaya archly suggests, might have come from Persia. These are only the tips of an iceberg. All around India one finds preparations that came originally from outside South Asia. Kebabs came from West and Central Asia and underwent radical metamorphosis in the hot and dusty plains of India. So did biryani and pulao, two rice preparations, usually with meat. Without them, ceremonial dining in many parts of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh is incomplete. Even the term pulao or pilav seems to have come from Arabic and Persian. It is true that in Sanskrit — in the Yajnavalkya Smriti — and in old Tamil the term pulao occurs (Achaya, 1998b: 11), but it is also true that biryani and pulao today carry mainly the stamp of the Mughal times and its Persianized high culture.
  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:09, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: fluke as well? you are not answering my questions/objections/arguments you just want to impose your POV, i have already commented on your sources, please read them and answer my objections. 175.137.72.188 (talk) 07:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is the specific technique in Achaya for achieving a final cooked product in which the grains don't stick?  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:13, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  you do not need to achieve grain separation using complicated apparatus if you are using basmati rice, as i have already argued, you just need a patila/sauce pan and basmati rice, salt and water, here in this video, an indian chef cooks separate grains of rice without using any perticular method, How to Boil the rice - #Tips&Tricks | ChefHarpalSingh, in this technique, the lady cooks separate grains of rice only using few drops of lemon does not even use the lid to give it a steam,  in this video, lady purely boils the rice. the separation of rice has nothing to do with arab technique of cooking rice, it has everything to do with quality of rice being used/basmati rice. If you are using japanese rice, dispite your cloth method, you wont achieve that as proven in this video 175.137.72.188 (talk) 10:47, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any scholarly sources that describe a technique of cooking rice in meat stock in ancient, pre-Islamic, India in which the grains remained separated in the cooked product?  I have produced seven books specifically on the history of food published by academic publishers that state unequivocally that the technique of pilaf/pilau/pullao is not Indian, but was introduced into India by Muslims.  Again, do you have any scholarly sources?  If you don't please with respect, do not waste my time.  I have limited patience of unfocused roundabout posts that do not respect Wikipedia policy.  Best regards Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:59, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  you are only ranting here, my time is being wasted arguing with you. you need to make more valid arguments with intelligence, producing a million source will not give any credibility to your BS, and i will not accept any of your BS edits without credible reasons, regards. 175.137.72.188 (talk) 11:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fowler&fowler's  sources 

message: :  fluke as well? you are not answering my questions/objections/arguments you just want to impose your POV, i have already commented on your sources, please read them and answer my objections. 175.137.72.188 (talk) 07:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is the specific technique in Achaya for achieving a final cooked product in which the grains don't stick?  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:13, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  you do not need to achieve grain separation using complicated apparatus if you are using basmati rice, as i have already argued, you just need a patila/sauce pan and basmati rice, salt and water, here in this video, an indian chef cooks separate grains of rice without using any perticular method, How to Boil the rice - #Tips&Tricks | ChefHarpalSingh, in this technique, the lady cooks separate grains of rice only using few drops of lemon does not even use the lid to give it a steam,  in this video, lady purely boils the rice. the separation of rice has nothing to do with arab technique of cooking rice, it has everything to do with quality of rice being used/basmati rice. If you are using japanese rice, dispite your cloth method, you wont achieve that as proven in this video 175.137.72.188 (talk) 10:47, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have any scholarly sources that describe a technique of cooking rice in meat stock in ancient, pre-Islamic, India in which the grains remained separated in the cooked product?  I have produced seven books specifically on the history of food published by academic publishers that state unequivocally that the technique of pilaf/pilau/pullao is not Indian, but was introduced into India by Muslims.  Again, do you have any scholarly sources?  If you don't please with respect, do not waste my time.  I have limited patience of unfocused roundabout posts that do not respect Wikipedia policy.  Best regards Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:59, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  you are only ranting here, my time is being wasted arguing with you. you need to make more valid arguments with intelligence, producing a million source will not give any credibility to your BS, and i will not accept any of your BS edits without credible reasons, regards. 175.137.72.188 (talk) 11:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: this article is manufactured for european/western readers, any non european reader must avoid this topic, i have already highlighted how european sources presented here are biased/sectarian, this article is no less biased in favour of really pathetic european scholarship.
the gest of this article is summarised below;
regards
 175.137.72.188 (talk) 14:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  be careful of this article/ it is manufactured for european/western readers 

message: K. T. Achaya is an unreliable source, full of errors, written by a retired researcher in oil kernels with no experience of history, one who is wildly misinterpreting the sources, who has no publication history in Food History.  One such doozy is the fantasy that the method of cooking rice in stock in which the grains separate, and to which meat and other ingredients are added later, as in Pilaf,  was present in ancient India 2000 years go.  In fact, he cites a book published in 1926 on Ancient Jaffna (Jaffna is the northern part of Sri Lanka), which itself is footnoting a poem from the Sangam Literature, ca 100 BCE to 100 CE, but which was lost to human history until it was rediscovered by Tamil scholars in the 19th century.  It matters little to Mr Achaya that the reference to meat is an entirely other one, which merely mentions eating meat with rice.   This is the shabby state of scholarship that is being proposed as an alternative.  In contrast, Alan Davidson was a prolific food historian, the founder editor in 1979 of Petits Propos Culinaires, the journal of food history, and the convenor of Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery,  the author of many books. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have used high quality sources for the lead.  The Google Scholar citation index for Oxford Companion to Food  is 777 citations, and the Cambridge World History  of Food is 558 citations.  In contrast, the Encyclopedia of Jewish Food being used in the previous lead has  66 citations.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:00, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Thank you for making this changes. I am only now becoming aware of all this background. My interest is to primarily expand the content about regional varieties, which does not seem to be the subject of any disputes. I am sorry if I made some mistakes because I did not fully understand these issues you have explained. Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 23:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No problems.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:59, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  this dispute should now be resolved by admins, the assertions of achaya is not what i have posted, i have posted achaya's reference to the ancient indian sources/texts, which your secondary european sources have not bothered to consider, one of your source doesnt dispute with pulao appearing in yajnavalkiya simriti as well, if your secondary sources had talked about indian sources, there would have been no issue as they have done for arabic/persian manuscripts, i have already stated my objections on Alan Davidson, i have also remarked on my objections on a deliberate sectarian bias being propagated in two of your sources as well, which you have considered as reliable, your secondary sources also dont reference their assertations and deliberately trying to generate a perseptions based on their ideas, you are also trying to push your POV here and nothing else, you also reverted my edits in tandoori bread which cited monier willians who is an emminent sanskritist and nothing to do with achaya, so issue is not achaya here, but your bias against indian information which you assume to be less credible than others, one of your citation is about a book review, which tbh is not very credible and you have manipulated your way through your POV and mindset, i tried to reason with you and wanted to accommodate your assertions, but you have only tried to play how you wanted, i guess now ill take this issue with the admins soon. regards. 175.137.72.188 (talk) 08:07, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: The problem with Achaya

message: I'm troubled by this addition to the article. The cited text doesn't seem particularly reliable (a recipe book duly embellished) and if Alexander's troops actually brought back the recipe of pilaf, then there must be more to it than this "reportedly" throwaway line. Did Plutarch, for example, mention pilaf in his histories? Did Arrian say something about the troops being enamored with pilaf? Is there some Greek dish that can be traced back to this much traveled pilaf? There are, after all, limited extant accounts of Alexander's conquests so we should be able to attribute it better. If not, we should just chuck it out. --regentspark (comment) 19:40, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. This was in the article before I started editing it without any source. This was the only book I was able to find on Google Books that was even close to reliable. If there is such an early literary mention it should be in the article and absolutely it would be preferable to know which primary source it comes from. I thought about removing it but did not know if that was preferred.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 20:58, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes Nabhan is not a reliable history.  I have for now put "similarly" as a comment adverb, casting it to the class of reported, or infirm, accounts in the paragraph that precedes it.  Will look at the history of Alexander's meals.  Since the cultivation of rice had spread from India to Persia and beyond much earlier, it is entirely possible that there were unwritten grandmother recipes in the region much earlier than the first documented one (by a literate male) in the 10th century CE, but we can only go by what's written down.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:47, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alexander pilaf 

message: just to exhibit how dubious this guy's edits are lets take an example
 
i just came across this dubious sources he listed in the article and to be honest, his own sources are enough to expose this biased man, atleast should have the guts to mention these facts in the article . i always thought FF's sources are too dubious to even waste a breath, but this is just shocking to say the least.
the whole debate started from thirteenth-century Arab cookbooks mentioned by a british/western author Alan Davidson, dubious source doesnt mention this very crucial fact.
and this is guy's own comments above, self contradicting himself
this guy is getting badly exposed through his own dubious sources and his own biased arguments.
regards
175.137.72.188 (talk) 21:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is covered by what is already in the article. Achya and Davidson are both discussed. What is the issue with using Colleen Taylor Sen as a source?Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 22:39, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fowler&fowler's self contradicting dubious sources and edits 

message: There are some reoccuring issues with the lead section. First, I do not know why it continues to be erased that pilaf can be cooked in water, and may be served plain. There is not only one correct recipe for pilaf. Broth is less common then it was historically and many people cook in water now when broth is not available. The omission of broth does not make the dish not a pilaf. Recipes change over time and this article covers past and present. In present, making pilaf with water is very common. Second, I am sorry for removing pilau. I did not know this was a synonym in British English. I have made changes to make this clear that it is a synonym. Pilau in the United States is used often for pilafs from Afghanistan or made by Bukharian cuisine, though in regional cuisines it overlaps sometimes with plovs. However, it is never used for a Turkish pilau and this meaning is not known to readers who were not familiar with details of British English. Please make a note about any problems and we can try to make a compromise version.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 00:06, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't make compromises between individuals, or their personal opinions, on Wikipedia.  We present only what the predominance of sources state, and in case of a substantial dispute between the source, present what the dispute is.  There is no dispute here.  The majority of the scholarly sources state that pilaf refers to a dish to which things are added: they can be spices, meat, vegetables, dried fruit, and so forth.  All are a form of stock.  Plain rice cooked in water is not pilaf.  The OED says that very clearly, "A dish, partly of Middle Eastern, partly and ultimately of South Asian origin, consisting of rice (or, in certain areas, wheat) cooked in stock with spices, usually mixed with meat and various other ingredients.  The contents and method of preparing the dish vary widely according to region."  This is the 2019 OED on line to which I have a subscription.  The Oxford Companion says that.  The Cambridge World History says that.  All are referred to in the article.  The rest of your post is your own opinion.  If it is not there in scholarly sources, it is useless for Wikipedia.  Those are the limits of Wikipedia.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:24, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , Really, I can't use ad hoc correctly in a sentence?  Please point out the error.  Please do.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:27, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: OED is an important source but that does not make it a "predominance of sources". There are other sources that say pilaf can be cooked in water. Some of the sources like Cambrdige World History are historical and support what I am trying to explain to you. It is true that historically stock was used, many sources support this. But pilaf does not have to made with stock, and with certain types of rice it can't be made with stock. Gil Marks supported this also, but someone on this page insisted that source be removed also (I do not remember if it was you). I do not think what is meant by "enyclopedic writing" is to delete all sources that do not support what you want. Ad hoc, if this is necessary, means "for this purpose", mostly commonly usage is ad hoc committee to describe a committee formed for a particular purpose. I do not know what you were trying to say when you wrote "home made ad hoc version".Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 00:37, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Find me the scholarly sources, which like mine are published by academic publishers, that state pilaf can mean plain rice cooked in water with no additions.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: OED is the best source about English language etymology but based on above comment I do not think you understand what you read. Gil Marks was already given as a source for this, and so is The Guardian. What is wrong with these sources, they are not accepted on Wikipedia? Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 00:52, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Gil Marks begins with: "Pilaf: a dish of rice and meat cooked together."  not "plain rice boiled in water." Besides, Gil Mark is not a scholarly book.  We have already seen the nonsensical story of Alexander for which I have given the scholarly refutation in two sources above.  The Cambridge World History of Food says, "Turkey is well known for its pilafs, or rice dishes, made from long-grain rice, pounded ripe wheat (dogme), toasted unripe wheat Ora), and bulgur, or couscous. They are enriched with meat, dried fruit, vegetables, spices, and yoghurt. (p. 1147)"  It is not plain rice boiled in water.  I don't know what The Guardian Source is.  Please give me the URL. (You tell me, " You can't use ad hoc correctly in a sentence but you want to give advice about encyclopedic writing to others, ..." and you are accusing me of being rude.)  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:21, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we first agree that it can be made in stock or water? Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 01:23, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, it is not an personal compact between you and me.  It is what the scholarly sources say.  Please read WP:SOURCETYPES.  It says clearly: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources."  Cooks books or recipes in the Guardian are not scholarly sources.  If the scholarly sources favor one definition, i.e. with stock, then stock it is.  Period.  Again, we have to follow WP guidelines and recommendations.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:22, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You asked me what unencylopedic is.  Well here is an example: Pilaf is a rice dish or, in some regions, a wheat dish, whose recipe strives for cooked grains that do not adhere."  This is an unencylopedic sentence, written in inflated, meaningless, language.  That is because you have mangled my longer sentence, which was: "Pilaf (common North American English spelling), or pilau (common British and Commonwealth English spelling)  is rice dish or, in some regions, a wheat dish, whose recipe involves cooking in stock, adding spices, and other ingredients such as meat, and striving for cooked grains that do not adhere.   It takes time to be able to write in an encyclopedic fashion.  I have already told you on your user talk page that you are a beginner, unable to do so.  You are attempting to argue with me, someone who is experienced, had been doing this on Wikipedia for 12 years.  I can only humor you so much.  If you want to insist on arguing with me in a knee jerk fashion, without knowledge of the topic, without knowledge of WP rules and guidelines, then there's only so long that I will engage you.   I will bide my time and return after you've stopped whatever it is you are attempting to do here.  Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:40, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This is in Davidson that pilaf can be plain, but you deleted that too. You say above "The Oxford Companion says that", but it doesn't say that at all. And you are blaming me for content that other editors added to the article. The sentence you are complaining about as being unencyclopedic was added by another editor and anyone can see that proof in the article history.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 02:57, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Davidson says, "A Middle-Eastern method of cooking rice so that every grain remains separate. Usually a flavouring such as meat (usually lamb) or vegetables is cooked along with it, but plain rice, known as sade pilav (Turkish), rut mufal-fal (Arabic), or chelo (Farsi), can also be cooked by this technique."  What is that but, "usually involves cooking in stock, adding spices, and other ingredients such as meat."  Where does Davidson use the awkward "cooking in water?"  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:34, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: My version was a WP:SS distillation of the the OED, Oxford Companion (Davidson) and Cambridge World History of Food (which says, "Turkey is well known for its pilafs, or rice dishes, made from long-grain rice, pounded ripe wheat (dogme), toasted unripe wheat Ora), and bulgur, or couscous. They are enriched with meat, dried fruit, vegetables, spices, and yoghurt. (p. 1147)"  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:43, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't matter some particular variation. Historically, pilaf is made with rendered animal fat similar to lard and other things that are not recommended anymore for health reasons. Some people think it is not pilaf, most important ingredient is butter. I don't care, as long as the lead is accurate based on academic sources I have no problem.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 04:05, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your edit.  The adverb "usually" is used as well in the premier dictionary of American English.  Webster's Unabridged (subscription required) says:  pi·laf noun :  rice usually combined with meat and vegetables, fried in oil, steamed in stock, and seasoned with any of numerous herbs (as saffron or curry) <chicken pilaf> <Turkish pilaf> Origin of PILAF Persian & Turkish pilāu, palāu, First Known Use: 1609." The OED already uses usually: "A dish, partly of Middle Eastern, partly and ultimately of South Asian origin, consisting of rice (or, in certain areas, wheat) cooked in stock with spices, usually mixed with meat and various other ingredients. The contents and method of preparing the dish vary widely according to region."  We could add the last sentence of the OED (duly paraphrased to this article's lead as well.) That usually deters people from directly editing the lead when they consider the lead sentence not measuring up to their grandmother's recipe.  As for the matter of citing (or not citing elaborately) in the lead, my principle is the following: in start class article, which this article is (see top of page), or even in B or C class articles, I tend to include the citations in the lead, as, like I just said, it deters people from continually editing the lead, and preventing the article from becoming stable, which is essential for promotion to higher classes.  Once an article reaches A class, and most certainly if and when it becomes a Good article or a {{WP:FA|featured article]], the lead is usually not cited, as they the article has many watchers and they intervene.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:52, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a good idea to promote stability of the lead section. I see still some things missing from the article text. I would like to add Hoppin' John. Do you think this source is enough for the citation? ? Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 18:22, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: What does the Gastronomica article you reference say? It is not used in the Hoppin' John page, and  it doesn't seem to be primarily about the pilaf. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:02, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section 

message: The pilaf entry in the Oxford Companion to Food has been cited in this article and this talk page as having being written by Alan Davidson. In fact, the 3rd edition has been published after Davidson's death, and is edited by Tom Jaine.  The pilaf entry is authored by food historian Charles Perry, who has also made contributions to  Alan Davidson’s Petits Propos Culinaires and to The Oxford Companion to Food.  The writes a food history column for the LA Times.  The pilaf entry should be cited as:   Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:47, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction: Oxford Companion to Food 3rd Edition 

message: It is best that you not dicker with words or nickel and dime lists in the lead.  The lead has taken a long time to get right.  You might be attempting to change things here and there in good faith, but your edits are not helpful.  I request that you ask here rather than increasing the work of those who maintain the article.  Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:25, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needlessly dickering or nickel and diming in the lead 

message: The article includes this line: "employing some technique for achieving cooked grains that do not adhere"
I believe, based on the linked source/comment, that "adhere" is referring to keeping the rice from sticking together.  But the word "adhere" is commonly used in other senses - such as, to adhere to a set of rules.  I actually don't think the meaning of "adhere" in this sentence is totally obvious.  As someone who is not a cooking or rice expert, at first I thought it was referring to some set of rules for what pilaf is/how it should be cooked, instead of about the physical sticking together of grains of rice.
Perhaps we could consider using a different word or way of phrasing this, if anyone has any ideas.
-KaJunl (talk) 23:37, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "adhere" 

message: I just realized that IP editors, among which are notably  have been removing sourced content and changing the preferred spelling (which is pilaf (the US spelling), followed by pilau (the UK and Commonwealth).  The main caretaker of this page user:IamNotU has not been active since last October.  But there are others: user:RegentsPark, user:Gotitbro, and user:Serols who are around.  Please continue to keep an eye on the page.  (We went through much heartache to get it right once.)  Thanks.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Fowler&fowler. I saved the article under favorites. Regards --Serols (talk) 12:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  IP editors 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: This page has been recently edited by a disruptive editor, but I can not perform any revert on this page as all revisions of this page purportedly contain "a new external link to a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist or Wikimedia's global blacklist." I am not trying to introduce any new external link, so I don't know what any of this is about. Uness232 (talk) 12:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can not perform any reverts on this page