Talk:The whole nine yards

message: A citation for the source of the phrase (or, rather, lack thereof) is the excellent Word Myths (ISBN 0195172841, 2004), which devotes four and a half pages to it, if anyone is curious about following it up. Shimgray 11:41, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation

message: Logically, just because a phrase is used in a certain context it doesn't follow that it originates there.  Even if it's the oldest known example.  The association with firing all rounds of an aircraft's magazine (which is not measured in yards) is no nearer an etymology than emptying a dump truck (the contents of which are not measure in yards).  I'm thinking first recorded use is not necessarily etymology.  It's a kind of logical fallacy.  Hakluyt bean 04:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, the capacity of dump trucks, soil trucks etc. has often been expressed colloquially in "yards" -- short for cubic yards. In Australia we use metric measurements now (i.e., metres), but I grew up with builders, etc., routinely talking about getting in "[number] of yards of sand" or whatever.60.230.180.102 (talk) 01:46, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: Notwithstanding my above post... I should point out that Brits (& poss Canadians) generally assume the phrase originates with WWI.  It crops up in casual reference all over the place.  Here's a random example: One of our greatest metaphors for putting forth the maximum effort to achieve a goal comes from the slaughter of the Somme and Flanders Field — “going the whole nine yards” meant unloading in one glorious spasm the entire belt of machine gun bullets upon one's enemy, the standard issue belt that was nine yards long. (oops, actually that looks like a N. American site but the point stands - catholic education  Hakluyt bean 04:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My father explained to me in the fifties that the expression goes back to the tea clippers, which had three masts, each with three yards.  "Going the whole nine yards" meant cramming on all sail and to hell with the weather.  Makes more sense to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.191.58 (talk) 23:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brits 

message: They've turned up an earlier reference --
see http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005107.html AnonMoos (talk) 00:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Language log

message: I realize that anecdotal evidence is useless for purposes of the encyclopedia article, just thought I'd throw in my nine yards worth. I first heard the expression when I entered the Air Force in 1971.  It seemed at the time to be military slang, seldom used off-base.  Somewhere along the line, it was explained that it referred to the length of an ammunition belt, so that folk etymology was already in circulation around that time.  It was several years later, in the late 70s, before I started hearing it used by civilians, and even then, it was mostly among veterans, although it was being picked up by other civilians, since at the time, nearly everyone knew at least one vet.
It should be noted that my father never said it, despite having put in three hitches in the Army Air Corps during and after WWII (1940-1949), although he often used military slang/jargon in his everyday conversation.
For what it's worth, I've seen lots of ammo, and belts are always referred to by the number of rounds they hold, not in terms of linear measurements. Terry Yager (talk) 19:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  My nine 

message: Google Books reveals an 1894 cite for "the full nine yards" in the modern sense, referring to the length of a fabric bandage.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.48.61.130 (talk) 19:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similar expressions 

message: The above text was edited into the head of the page.  The formatting was all messed up, and citations are hinted but not given.  It seemed better material for discussion & improvement here, if anyone cared to.  I reverted the edit, moved the text here, and signed it with the original editor's IP.
From a quick look - the Horse pulling article (which they don't link, but seem to refer to), does not provide any information on "the whole nine yards".  Nor did its external references, as far as I looked.  And, the only real google result for "horse pulling" and "nine yards" was the above text, as originally shoehorned into the page.  So I myself, passing by, don't see much to do but leave it here.
Ale And Quail (talk) 08:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Horse pulls proposed as origin 

message: I've removed this from the article for the time being:
I understand what we're trying to do here - mention that there are earlier uses of the phrase, but that they're purely literal and not obviously linked to the metaphoric sense. However, it seems to give excessive weight to this particular instance, and imply that we do think there's a linkage - I can't figure out a way to rework this section in order to avoid that implication. Thoughts? Shimgray | talk | 16:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  1940s source 

message: The original text of the Ballad of Sir Andrew does not use the phrase "full nine yards".  The original text (probably written in the early 16th century) is most likely something like what appears in the Child Ballads text.  "Full nine" first appears in several cites in 1829... in the same sense as scores of other even earlier cites for "full nine yards", that is to indicate that the speaker is not exaggerating.  There is no implication that nine yards is as much chain as would fit in the cannon; indeed Simon loads in "other great shot less, and moe" as well.
Palmwiz (talk) 04:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems fair enough to me - I've removed it. (It is quite illustrative to run searches on, eg, "full seven yards", and see what other uses of the construction turn up) Shimgray | talk | 11:07, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ballad of Sir Andrew Barton 

message: I have no source to cite so I have not added to the article, but I understand the origin to be the length of the belt used with Vickers Machine Gun of the First World War - it was 9 yards long...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.77.157 (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Another possible origin

message: A hypothesis:  Perhaps the measure in the expression refers to a cubic yard, commonly called a yard in various trades.  The capacity of some dump trucks is nine yards.  An order or delivery of coal, for instance, might specify "the whole nine yards."
March's June (talk) 17:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Cubic yards?

message: I simply do not understand all the nonsense about the phrase "Whole ( or FULL ) Nine Yards" having no usage pre 1960s and being from America !
Some Thirty years ago while at the Bristol Old Vic Theatre School UK , the year group below me did a production of Shakespeares Henry  V111 .
The The Chap playing the Cardinal  had a very Splendid , but tricky entrance in to make in full Cardinals Robes , with an enormous train.
He had to enter upstage centre and do a huge sweep of a small stage to take up position on a throne on a dias to one side of the Proscenium Arch.
The 'arc' of his journey had to be just right to get all the fabric to follow him , and circle elegantly around his feet and the steps of the podium
Our movement teacher Rudi Shelly was discussing Costume with us one lesson and told us that although the young actor was having a tough time with that manouver , he did in fact have nothing to grumble about , as the Robe in the Production , despite being an  impressive 15 foot long , was not in fact full length !
A Cardinals "Cappa Magna" , Rudi told us , although often shorter , can in fact be anything up to the allowed Full Nine Yards long.
I have always taken this to be the truth , and therefore the derivation of that expression.
The "Whole nine Yards" film is a great favourite of mine , and out of curiosity today I thought I check out what I had always assumed was true.
Indeed it is .
A quick look on Google image  for Cappa Magna will confirm it. 
Many of the robes are  shown shorter ..and further investigation revealed that in the nineteen  sixties the official maximum length allowed was almost halved. 
But there are many older photos and illustrations showing cloaks of nine yards filling streets in processions , or trailing down great knaves of Cathedrals.
Derivation of the phrases usage might now be mostly American ; in the same way the phrase "The Full Monty" is mostly British - but for the origin you need to turn to History and Heraldry.
There is also a UK Coronation Robe ( the "Dalamtic" Robe  I think ? ) which is likewise Nine Yards Long.
Richard Coombs March 13th 2011  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.165.1 (talk) 12:43, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  9  yards (was) allowed length of Cardinal "Cappa Magna" Robe 

message: Our local library allows whole newspaper searches, but you need to have a passworded account. I found only one early use of "whole nine yards," but it seems relevant.
Democratic Standard | Janesville, Wisconsin | Wednesday, March 14, 1855 | Page 4
A story (presented as truth) called "The  Judge's Big Shirt" relates a practical joke involving telling a seamstress to make a judge a shirt out of "the whole nine yards" to wear to a party. They tucked the extra material into his pants and went to the party.
"...instead of making three she has to put the whole nine yards into one shirt!
How can I document the article? A link will just ask for a password.
http://0-access.newspaperarchive.com.alec.icpl.org/Viewer.aspx?img=35173571&firstvisit=true&src=search¤tResult=0¤tPage=0&fpo=False  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conn53victor (talk • contribs) 18:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there's no requirement that you have a link to the text, so you could just give the paper cite and leave it to readers to go to a large library and look it up.  However, I've quoted the entirety of your remarkable find in a post to ADS-L, so you could link to it here.  John M Baker (talk) 02:41, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  1855 Newspaper Reference 

message: Has there been any research done as to the possible connection with the number of yards used in making a traditional kilt?
Julyrast (talk) 16:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Another hypothesis...

message: This can't be used because as far as I know it's unverifiable, and I'm unsure of this old memory in any case, but I seem to remember as a child, probably in the late 1950s, listening to someone on the radio (I have no memory of whom) talking about a sportscaster and how his narrative of football plays as they were occurring was so accurate and complete that by the time the quarterback had traveled 10 yards to get a first down the sportscaster would have reported in detail the whole nine yards before it as well. Embram (talk) 05:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  An unverifiable memory 

message: I restored in text about Ralph Boston's record setting jump in 1961. It was removed with the edit summary "B. jumped 8.24 *meters*". Two seconds on Google would tell you that 8.24 meters equals slightly more than nine yards or 27'-0 1/2". This is how it would have been reported in the United States and several other countries at the time (Canada, for example, hadn't yet adopted meters). Most Americans know that 27 feet equals nine yards. So, yes, if this world record was made today, a lot of US newspapers would put "the whole nine yards" in their headlines. Ego White Tray (talk) 16:01, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Recent edits basically follow speculation at phrasefinder, a site that did not credit American Dialect Society list members (including Bonnie Taylor-Blake and others) It is not relevant what a headline writer today might write. In 1961, remember, Google did not existCoralapus (talk) 14:07, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boston's jump 

message: It might be helpful if future editors of this article consult the findings archived by the American Dialect Society.
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l
Findings there (for which the UK site phrasefinders is merely a secondary source, with added speculation) make claims such as a suggested 1950s origin now unlikely.Coralapus (talk) 17:16, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: it shouldn't be a matter of origin as much as when it became popular. I've heard the phrase a few times in wwi and wwii documentaries. 2601:19E:837F:B9A0:5C30:FB26:89A9:ACB2 (talk) 22:10, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  American Dialect Society archive discussion 

message: There was no such thing as a standard length .50 caliber ammunition belt.  Every aircraft had its own ammo capacity--some like the P-51 and F4U had differing amounts for the outboard guns where the wing was narrower.  The P-47 took 425 rounds per gun but often flew with 300 to reduce weight.  So the notion that "one size fits all" for ammo loading was invalid from the start.  Btillman (talk) 17:40, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: More about machine gun belts

message: After some research on line and in a vintage sailing book, I found no examples of a three masted sailing ship with 3 yards on each mast. My seach showed that the populer configuration is four yards or more preffered five yards (and as many as 8 yards on one mast)on each of the three masts. this also does not take in consideration of jibs, foresails, tops sails, gaff rigged sails (having a gaff and boom, square sails having only a yard or gaff), lantren sails.
I have found three masted boat with 2 yards, and two masted boats with 2 yards.
My theroy is that three mast with three yards is so rare, and the groups of square rigged is so rich in varities, that a standard of 3 by 3 sails could not logically inspire the saying "the whole nine yards". — Preceding unsigned comment added by BatMiata (talk • contribs) 00:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  In noting the Nine Yards on a boat 

message: In Manly Wade Wellman's horror short story "Nine Yards of Other Cloth," published in the November 1956 issue of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, a portion of the plot turns on this phrase, explicitly said to refer to the amount of cloth traditionally used to make a burial shroud.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.59.206 (talk) 06:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Dave Wilton discusses this story in Word Myths, saying that the 1958 citation is interesting, but it does not use the word "whole," nor is it a reference to the entirety of something.  John M Baker (talk) 23:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  1956 appearance in a short story 

message: The quoted statement "The best suits are made from nine yards of fabric" seems highly dubious. Different online cloth merchants give a figure of around five yards of cloth (4.5 meters) required for a three-piece suit. In a 1912 address to the Wyoming Woolgrowers' Association, one Charles E. Winter named a figure of "three and three-eighths to 3½ [yards]" for a suit of clothes. Maybe people were shorter back then. 
The source used in the article, englishforstudents.com, doesn't say where the "nine yards" figure comes from, and there's nothing to suggest that they are at all reliable on questions of tailoring. I   the disputed quotation. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:24, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cloth cutting 

message: I've been reluctant to edit the article on "the whole nine yards" mostly because I don't want to appear to be too biased (since I've had a hand in some research into early forms of the idiom). 
However, I should note that the "History of the phrase" section should be edited to include usages from 1917 to 1951. (Full text and bibliographic citations at each link.)
* "The whole six yards," Arkansas, 1917, http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2017-May/147900.html
 
* "The whole six yards," Missouri, 1927, http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2016-May/142488.html
 
* "The full nine yards," Kentucky, 1946-1951, http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2016-January/140454.html
 
The existence of pre-war and slightly post-war usages disproves the statement in the fourth paragraph under "History of the phrase" that "[t]he phrase is not known to have been used in writing thereafter until a 1956 issue of Kentucky Happy Hunting Ground ... "
The fifth paragraph contends that "[t]he phrase at this point was still rare." Now that we've somewhat filled that gap (between 1921 and usages appearing in Kentucky Happy Hunting Ground in the 1950s) I'd argue that we have some reason to believe the idiom was likely not rare in areas of the Upland South and that, because it was used informally and in a folksy manner, it only occasionally made it into print during this time. (Further, I'm not a fan of the speculation that -- because the idiom wasn't used in headline form for what is now to us an obvious pun -- the expression must've been rare in the early 1960s, but maybe that's just me.)
Thanks for listening. B Taylor-Blake (talk) 19:51, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested edits to "History of the phrase" section