Talk:Northern Group of Forces

message: Note on legal status: LOC article states that the legal status of Soviet troops in C/EE satellites was regulated by 1949, however all the other sources I could find state that there was no legal framework for stationment of those troops in Poland until 1956. As LOC study is rather old, I'd tend to think that modern (2004) research by Polish historians (like ) is more reliable (see also ).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: legal status

message: I see that Piotrus persistently reverts me here. I am not to continue this game and if I see my edits reverted again to the POV-pushing version, I will POV-tag the article and explain its deficiencies at talk instead. I have better things to do than spend time editing to be reverted on the spot. --Irpen 08:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means, DO explain your reasons on talk, this is what it is for. Also, please cite sources to back up your point: as I indicated before, your personal POV is not enough to make the article POVed. I address the legal situation above. If it is the looting part that you find objectionable, it is well referenced - and you fail to provide any refs of your own for any of your edits. Please note that the facts that you add - like that the looting was seen by Soviets as part of their war repatriotons - are kept. PS. Some quotes to further expand the article if you insist (for example, the issues of Soviet crimes on their 'allies'): 1) 'As even the PPR leadership was forced to admit, Polish-Soviet relations were beginning to look like that of an "occupied country". (...) Soldiers of the Red Army (...) became synonymous with looting and robbery. (...) archives are filled with reports of mugging, bulgraries, rape and murders attributed to Soviet soldiers [against Poles]."Rebuilding Poland: Workers and Communists, 1945-1950 2) "Unqualified Soviet support (to the Polish communists) equalled unqualifed Soviet control. In 1945 Gomulka (Władysław Gomułka) complained that 'the massess don't regard us as Polish communists at all but as the most despicable agents of the NKVD. Zawadzki (Aleksander Zawadzki) feared that raping and looting of the Soviet army would provoke a civil war. Ochab (Edward Ochab) declared that the main problems facing the Party were those of withdrawal of the Soviet army and lack of "sovereignity". Davies, God's... 3) "majority of (Polish) population was rapidly coming to dested Red Army because of its thelf, looting and undisciplined brutality." and more on the conflict between Poles (AK) and red Army.  -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Setting aside good half of your post which is nothing but a personal attack (particulary comments like that), let me address your specific concerns - finally posted after a series of reverts. First, Legnica is a relevant example of how Soviet official policies antagonized Polish population and governement - I see nothing wrong with having an example here (please cite relevant policy if you disagree). Please cite relevant part of WP:RS which would argue that Polityka - a respected mainstream publication - is unreliable; also, I can't fail to note that you have no problems with using Zerkalo Nedeli (for example) as a source yourself. 'Portal historyczny' is an initative of Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń and Polskie Towarzystwo Historyczne, which make it a reliable academic venue (not to mention that the cited article by an academic was also published in printed academic journal, see further reading). Homepage of Borne Sulinowo is indeed the least reliable, but as part of an official town website (and thus, by an extension, a Polish governmenal publication), is still reliable.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Sigh. Since you cannot quote a policy to discard Polityka, it stays as a reliable source, EOT. Same for offical town page. As for Legnica, controversy in estabilishing the formation main headquaters seems perfectly reasonable to be described in that formation article. What would be unreasonable would be to describe details of hundreds of criems committed by soldiers, or particular grievances of local towns and governments - although the refs have various examples of that. Feel free to improve the article, but censorship of anything that may show Soviets were not perfect will not be accepted.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This particular two Polityka articles, the town web-site and the entry at "Historic portla" will be acceptable if you find any proof of their author's credentials being otherwise established. This requirement does not apply to the publications in the scholarly journals, university press or other book publishers. But the fact that something appears in Polityka (or Zerkalo Nedeli) does not make it a reliable source because these publications are of a polemic nature by definition. This should be decided case by case based on who authored it. --Irpen 21:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be a very interesting change of our policies, Irpen, if we were to follow this. Unfortunatly until this is policy, let's just follow WP:RS and WP:V. Quoting from here: "Mainstream newspapers and magazines published by notable media outlets (are generally regarded as reliable)." I see no need to look at the specific authors unless the sources are used to reference a particulary controversial/bizzarre claim.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: revert warring

message: This sort of factual information is what I would put in Soviet occupation of Romania, but I have no idea where to get it. The Warsaw pact is probably what allowed the Russians to remain in Romania after 1955, and this info should be put in that article or another. But I don't know where to get that info. I saw that you mainly have Polish sources. I am aware of no Romanian source on the matter. Dpotop 21:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the recent (2004) article by Polish historian, Mirosław Golon, was very helpful (even if the online version is strangly truncated...). He notes that until now there have been no publication on the  entire NGF, only on local parts. I found also few others Polish articles, although they are less academic (IPN can be considered reliable and academic, but Polityka is just a newspaper). And I managed to find some useful tidbids via Google Print, to verify some controversial issues with reliable and neural western sources. But yes, it was not easy and there is still much scope for expansion. I am afraid I cannot give you much tips for expansion on the Southern Group, but have you tried searching for Hungarian (and Bulgarian) articles?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second Dpotop's kudos. Excellent job. To Dpotop's comment, my understanding (from a military journal I came across) was that the Warsaw Pact did change the legal status of Soviet troops on non-Soviet Warsaw Pact territory. There should be a copy around somewhere in English. It always helps to have the actual text (not someone's rants about what, in fact, is never said...). —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm particularly impressed that the newspaper, Polityka, is not going to be considered to be reliable and academic anymore; perhaps the rest of the junk coming out of these tabloids and tygodniks will cease to be used as "sources" to back absurd claims too. One can only hope. Then we can next focus on eliminating  the "Google hits" phenomenon that is used to adjudicate matters of history and philosophy. Dr. Dan 03:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And perhaps one day you will actually contribute something significant to this project in the article space. We can always hope for improvement, now, can't we?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  04:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And that they will be more significant than Operation Wilno and Zydokomuna are. In the meantime I will try to continue with my copy editing, and corrections of POV presented as fact. Per your advice below, ...-but any further copyedit is, of course, welcomed, and I'll do my best. Dr. Dan 14:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice work, Piotrus 

message: As the thread was expanding on DYK, I thought I'd take a look. It doesn't look too slanted from a quick read through (assuming there aren't sources to the contrary), but it wouldn't hurt to tone down the use of "further", "however", "eventually" etc. in almost every sentence of the section about the treaty. Just the facts will make the case quite convincingly. Cheers, Yomanganitalk 17:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I got read of one further, the other qualifiers I think improve the flow and logic of the article - but any further copyedit is, of course, welcomed.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't edit it as the tag is on, but Personnel has two "n"s. Yomanganitalk 23:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: The aftermath section needs significant expansion as do the notes. They need to be worked into the text. So, I am assessing it as start for the moment. It is very close to B, I just feel it is too large a gap in the topic. Woody (talk) 21:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Passed for WP:POLAND per previous MILHIST review. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:55, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: B-class

message: Disbanded in NGF after the war, May 6, 1946. Had two artillery divisions: the 35th cannon and the 31st. Last commander lieutenant general of artillery. Korolkov Pavel Mikhailovich - until May 6, 1946 [57, v. 2, p. 279]. Source Feskov et al 2013, 285. Buckshot06 (talk) 01:22, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  10th Silesian Artillery Corps