Talk:Bass violin

message: It's really bad that this article doesn't even mention the bass member of the Violin octet, which is the normal usage for the term "bass violin." Badagnani (talk) 00:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't include that originally because I wasn't sure if that name was correct. I saw "contrabass" and "small bass" and "baritone" instruments of the violin octet, but none called simply "bass violin." FYI, the baritone of the new family looks like it is quite similar to the instrument described in this entry.BassHistory (talk) 03:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

text: My view is this: any unpropotional size relation between members of the tradition violin family relates to the violin octet article. To include it here would be a subjective assertion on the part of the editor in order to convince readers of the importance of the violin octet. Furthermore, as I already stated, the proportions of the bass violin acually were somewhat similar to the "cello" of the violin octet. I was somewhat better suited to basslines than the cello.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by BassHistory (talk • contribs) 05:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Violin octet]]

message: Please add an image of what you believe to be a "bass violin." Badagnani (talk) 00:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know of any, but if you find any please feel free to do so. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by BassHistory (talk • contribs) 
If you're writing about this instrument, you must know of images of it. Badagnani (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Here it is (painted in 1631). Put it where you want. Looks like a cello to me. Badagnani (talk) 04:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Does it have four or five strings? I think a couple of the "strings" are shadows. Badagnani (talk) 04:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: If it's a photo of a painting taken in the last 75 or so years, apparently the photographer would still own the copyright. Badagnani (talk) 04:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The article still does not mention that "bass violins" could have five strings, though the Praetorius woodcut clearly shows one. In fact, contrary to the woodcut, the text of the article says it did not have five strings. Badagnani (talk) 04:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: If the "standard specimen" was depicted with five strings, I'd dispute your claim that "it almost never had five strings." Your claim is that in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, 5-string "bass violins" were as unusual as were 5-string cellos at the time Bach wrote the cello suites? That really doesn't explain why Praetorius would depict such a non-standard instrument in his reference work. Badagnani (talk) 05:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I am asking questions that others will also ask. We all know that individual articles in Grove are often incomplete, and sometimes wrong. Saying something like "I don't have time to explain this to you" is patronizing and does a disservice to our thousands of readers all over the world who will also ask this same question, which is quite valid. Badagnani (talk) 05:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: First, these aren't "little" questions and second, you wrote this article, using an English name that was not used at the time, and not fully explaining things that need to be set out, such as that the proportions are not those of the (soprano) violin. These things need to be addressed to make the article complete and "finished," as we are based on continual improvement, and thus you cannot claim it's bothersome to address significant points such as these. Badagnani (talk) 05:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: If five-string models were less standard, yet surely did exist, then that should be stated in the article. Among the available iconographic examples, what is the proportion of five-string to four- and three-string instruments?  Badagnani (talk) 05:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The entirely illogical refusal to acknowledge that the iconography shows quite different proportions between the violin and the "bass violin" does a great disservice to our readers at best, and at worst this willful exclusion seems to show POV on the part of the editor who began this article. The proportions are actually quite different, with the instrument being deeper and less wide in proportion than a violin. This needs to be addressed in this article. No, cellists don't have a "problem" with this, and I don't even know why you would mention a "problem." It is not a problem, it is a fact. Using the English title "bass violin" (which apparently was never used in English at the time, as you apparently indicate) implies that this is an instrument with essentially the same proportions, only larger. The viols did have essentially the same proportions yet this instrument does not. Not to acknowledge this truism is simply unacceptable. Are you claiming that no reputable source mentions this difference in proportions? If anything, we need to explain why the instrument makers modified these proportions, which presumably were arrived at via trial and error, and a number of "transitional" instruments with various proportions that didn't work as well (better sound? more practical to get one's arms around the instrument? some other reason(s)?) Badagnani (talk) 05:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: When you say "all," do you mean "both"? I'd agree with you on this. We want to find the original painting of the Lely, so if you know which museum it's in, we're going to try to send a Wikipedian who lives nearby to inspect it to see about frets and number of strings. Badagnani (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Simpson image is obviously intended to show something that its author would have classified as what the book is about, an instrument for the specifically English tradition of "division viol" playing. The Lely picture may well show something similar, although I would guess Simpson's "division viol" would have been smaller and the Lely instrument is significantly more da braccio-like. But if you prefer to have these removed, feel free. Perhaps we should concentrate the main parts of this article to the Italian developments, and only treat the existence of such hybrid forms in a subsection. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: If what is being called "bass violin" (i.e. 16th-century/early 17th century proto-violoncello) looks pretty much like an early version of a Baroque cello, I suppose those are the instruments we should show. Badagnani (talk) 07:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: What's the number of strings in the Hals? Some of them seem to be shadows. Badagnani (talk) 20:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: This website presents the Ferrari bass as a gamba. Though the shape is violin/cello-like, the presence of frets in the blowup of the image leads me to agree with this. Badagnani (talk) 20:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: Someone should add a section about what music was written for the "bass violin."BassHistory (talk) 09:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will do, give me some time. I have an old paper I once wrote for university sitting somewhere on my shelf that has some of the relevant data. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reportoire

message: Can we please communicate the normal way, by asking and answering questions on this talk page, rather than by inserting comments in the article? Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. But in some cases, editing comments are called for. Badagnani (talk) 03:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But you use them all the time, and it's frustrating.BassHistory (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Communication 

message: The web source of the image referenced above () quotes Praetorius as calling it Bas-Geig de bracio (where Geig, obviously, is the German word for violin, or possibly for bowed instruments in general). de bracio identifies the family, as opposed to da gamba (viols). Of course, it has nothing to do with whether any particular member of a family was actually played "on the arm" or "on the legs" - the bass instruments of either family obviouly were held between the legs.
The website unfortunately doesn't give the page, but I have no doubt the image is authentic; I've seen the Praetorius book and it does have these types of illustrations.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You removed the editing comment without actually doing the legwork and getting the page number. That is very bad. Badagnani (talk) 04:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Praetorius image 

message: - At first they were like 3-string violas played a gamba(c1525-?) Later they were like large cellos (c1550-c1700?). You have to make the distiction. There are instruments in the vioa da braccio family, like the cello, that are played a gamba. It's common knowledge. Read the articles posted. Some had endpins, some didn't.BassHistory (talk) 19:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Praetorius woodcut (cello-like shape, no frets, endpin) makes it appear like an instrument in the "violin family." However, it really should be made clear in the article that the proportions of the bass violin are, of necessity, not those of a violin. (Although the bass violin in the violin octet apparently is made to exactly the proportions of a regular violin.) The confusion is that the bass violin really isn't a "true violin" as it's proportions are different, but was and is considered an instrument in this family, to be played in a set, providing the bass line for the smaller ones. Badagnani (talk) 03:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I strongly dispute your implication that I am trying to "sell" anything and maintain strongly that the article needs to explain that the proportions of the "bass violin" (this term apparently never used in English during the Baroque period), correct?) are dissimilar to those of those of the violin. This is not the case with other "matched set" families of instruments. Badagnani (talk) 04:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is a bass violin? 

message: Was the name "bass violin" used in English in the late 16th and early 17th centuries? Was the exact Italian name "violino basso" used? If not, then our English title is not quite accurate, and this needs to be stated in the lead of the article. I realize that we don't call the Piano article "Gravicembalo pian' e forte," or even "Pianoforte," but if the term "bass violin" was never used (or its exact Italian equivalent), that needs to be specified right at the top. Badagnani (talk) 05:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What was the name used in England for this instrument? We are the English-language Wikipedia. Further, as we have no Viola da braccio article (it redirects to Violin family), I am unconvinced that what was called the viola da braccio was exactly the same as the Amati/Stradivari violin; I understood that the Amati/Stradivari violin was based on the older/cruder viola da braccio. We should avoid "invented"/inaccurate terms like "bass violin" if they were not actually used in England during that period and, if it was still based on the viola da braccio and not something called a violin, the article title perhaps should be "bass viola da braccio." Badagnani (talk) 05:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: All right, you now have a special status which no other Wikipedia editor has, just "going it alone" and ignoring queries on "Discussion" pages. That's very unusual, rather disturbing, and reflects poorly on you as an editor. I've already pointed out two or three deficiencies with the article which were quite valid and need to be addressed and I am doing so in good faith. I hope you will do the same, as we do owe it to our users to have the best, most complete article possible. The article should leave no room for any of these fundamental questions; they should all be answered so that readers leave without saying "that's strange they didn't mention X..." Badagnani (talk) 05:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: If you believe "Terminology of the time was overlapping, ambiguous and confusing. That's why today its called the bass violin", yet you believe all instruments that fit the bill are "bass violins," this needs to be spelled out in the article. Badagnani (talk) 05:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Just a note about the historical names: Contemporary names in England would be interesting, but not decisive for our naming practices. We are the English Wikipedia, but not the 17th-century-English Wikipedia. Relevant for us is what English-speaking scholarship uses today, and yes, it does use "bass violin" as a generic name for older bass members of the da braccio family. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Some more random sources: 
*1740 English encyclopedia confirming contemporary usage of "bass violin"
*some quotes about contemporary terminology
*Online paper about the history of "violone", "bass violin" and related instruments; with a critical review of the papers by Bonta
So much for now, Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The 1740 source is simply amazing. What a find! That entire definition should be added to the article, showing the term's actual use in English.  I'm curious how you found this. One question: why doesn't it just call it a "violoncello" or "cello," which certainly existed and was called by that name by 1740? Badagnani (talk) 18:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's nice, isn't it? :-) Actually it was a random find in google, through the reference in the second one. I guess it just shows that violoncello was still felt to be a foreign Italian term at the time? Anyway, yes, whoever finds the time could certainly integrate a few quotes from it in the article. I'm impressed how well all these bass- or viol- or cello-enthusiasts are organised on the web, they seem to have various societies who have put a huge lot of interesting historical material online. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bravo! Does "stops" mean frets here, or positions? I would be quite interested to know if 18th century English "bass violins" had frets.BassHistory (talk) 20:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Six strings? OK, I'll change the intro again.BassHistory (talk) 20:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The text says "four strings" and "eight stops," not "six strings." Badagnani (talk) 20:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read VIOLONCELLO.BassHistory (talk) 21:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There were certainly some early cellos (i.e.: "real", small violon-cellos) with more than four strings, that much is certain. Bach's instrument for the D major Cello Suite is not entirely isolated. But six must have been rather an exception. When they talk of frets, they may actually be thinking of some of those hybrid instruments. They must have been common in England, where fretted viols were far more common than real da braccios for a while. As far as I know, Italian instruments tended to stick more to the "real" da braccio prototype. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds about right.BassHistory (talk) 22:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  English name, more sources 

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thread_title:  External links modified