Talk:Pai Mārire

message: I see the Pai Marire page is flagged. Can someone tell me why? Kiwimac
:I cannot see anything wrong with it but if you like, I will fiddle around with it a bit and see if that satisfies whoever flagged it. ping 07:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like it needs a few headings to break up the text and some references. I think Te Ua should go on his own page as well and then reduce the bio a little here.  Herne nz 10:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I have corrected numerous infelicities of grammar and the like, and added some references. Someone else can do headings. MisterCDE 06:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: In this widely recognized  encyclopedia the opening sentence of this section says that the man (who started the church) called the church  Hauhau.This seems to be disputed by an editor for some reason. I cant see any reason for a dispute as the information is quite clear and precise-it was his church he can call it what he likes! Claudia  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 06:40, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually (as I say again) none of the references (and as I said on your talk page if you referenced things properly we would know exactly where you were quoting from) I can find say he named his religion Hauhau - the opening sentence that you mention says he founded the Hauhau church not that he named it that.  Much in the same way the Joseph Smith founded the Morman Church (interistingly at a similar time and ultimately in a similar frontier environment) but he certainly didn't name it that. From what I can gather Hauhau was a name applied from the outside to his movement rather than what he called it. Please think about what you write and what the references actually say and what it adds to the encyclopedia and whether it is appropriate to the specific article before you add information. Andrewgprout (talk) 07:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Te Ua Haumene Ref: Te Ara(on line) 

message: The introduction where it states the name of the cult is "good and peaceful"is at odds with all the known activities of the members.Te Ua seems to have started the cult in 1862 but within a few months large numbers were attacking British troops with reckless abandon in 1863. Then they moved across the other side of the North Island and persuaded Bay of plenty Maori that it would be a good idea to murder the Rev Volkner and other influencial Europeans. The method of murdering Volkner-pulling him up on a rope over a tree so he slowly strangled  suggest a strong degree depraved behavior. He was then shot and thrust head first down a toilet after his eyes had been eaten. Even in the 1860s that is very strange behaviour. Where is the "good and peaceful part???" Can anyone find even a single example?
One author says the bay people were in a frenzy to the point where they were deranged.The state of frenzy was mentioned again and again by those close by. Some might call it  mania. However the facts reveal that there was a considerable degree of cool manipulation and exploitation of the locals. Hau Hau in the bay did not target Jews or Catholics but only Anglicans who they apparently associated with the govt and the army. The Anglicans bought land for their families- the Catholics had no families and received more financial support from France ( and much later Ireland).The Anglican missionaries were supposed to be self supporting to a large extent.They frequently had very large families. The experience of the early Anglican missionaries was to be self sufficient in food or else they were very vulnerable to be exploited by local warlords.
The visiting Hau Hau quickly learnt from disgruntled locals, and exploited, the fierce competition , between the Volkner's Anglicans and the Catholics. Pai Marire /Hau Hau had the same fundamental beliefs as the king movement -that by denying settler's land they could slow down or stop their arrival from Britain. The only difference is that the new cult introduced terrorism to create fear-such as the parading of heads cut off the victims. They emphasized that the British would all "leave" after some "event".The event was obviously the Hau Hau uprising. 
There is strong suggestion that Catholics may have stoked the fires  against the Anglicans by making sure that local Maori knew that Bishop Selwyn was blessing British troops in Auckland. Father Garavel, acting as a postman, even carried a letter from the king movement to Whakatohea, the main tribe involved in the actrocity, asking them to join the rebellion. Of course Garaval swears he didn't know what was in the letter- nor did he even  have a quick peek!115.188.178.77 (talk) 09:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: From WP:TALK: "The purpose of an article's talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject. Claudia, unless you are offering a suggestion on an improvement to the article based on reliable sources, your comments here are unnecessary and will be removed. BlackCab (TALK) 09:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

text: If your question is about how they transformed so quickly from "Good and peaceful" to "Let's cut their heads off," the answer may well be in Paul Clark's 1975 "Hauhau" book, which Belich cites. Belich highlights a passage where Clark says the violence may have been led by "subordinate prophets" who acted contrary to the religion's precepts. I don't have the book, though it's downloadable (at a cost). BlackCab (TALK) 05:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I have skimmed parts of the book, which I was able to download. Clark spends much of the book emphasising the peaceful nature of Te Ua's teachings and the causes of the violence that did take place. Perhaps if I get the time in future I'll feed some of that stuff into the article. I'm sure the book is available to you in your library; you may wish to absorb that information before expounding further on the subject. BlackCab (TALK) 12:26, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange disconnections 

message: I've just reverted an edit from u/Albinoni67 which had moved the text about "decapitations, the removal of the hearts of enemy soldiers, and cannibalism" up into the second sentence. It seems clear to me that it belongs where it had been - i.e. in the paragraph starting: "Although founded with peaceful motives..."
However, it seems to me that we also some other problems:
# There is no reference given for these being "rites" (perhaps http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cow02NewZ-c1.html would do?), 
# Whether the old position or Albinoni67's new one, anything in the intro should be a summary of the body - yet although we actaully have a section on "Rites and beliefs", these actions don't get a mention there. 
# The "ancient rites" listed are in fact anything but that. The incantations are, according to Cowan,, "meaningless strings of English words", the niu sacred pole seems totally new as does the "supernatural protection from bullets" - and it's not clear to me that the decapitations or cannibalism count as a 'rite'. (However, offering the heart of the first enemy killed, mata-ika, to Tu certainly counts).
My feeling is that the intro needs to be very much simplified, and much of the detail moved down into the body. Snori (talk) 09:20, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Which I've now done. Please feel free to tidy up. Snori (talk) 10:31, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Rites?

message: I am editing this page. The description of rites and beliefs relies on dated and partisan commentators. It is a pity that there is no discussion of this religious movement post 1865. The section of "other practices" has no references and repeats a common anti-non-European narrative Brunswicknic (talk) 11:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Edit 

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thread_title:  External links modified