Talk:Falklands War/Archive 6

message: My poor brain can't quite figure out what this means: "The attack on Belgrano was the second submarine kill since the end of the Second World War, the first having been made by PNS Hangor on INS Khukri during the Bangladesh Liberation War in 1971. It was, however, the only time that a nuclear powered submarine has done so."  There seems to be a mixed tense in the last sentence.  Do we mean "to date it is the only nuclear powered submarine kill" or it was the first.  I think it needs to read "It is, however the only time..." rater than "it was" which makes it sound as if it no longer is, if you see what I mean. LeeG 10:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So change it. Be bold, and all. I don't personally find it confusing, but your version is no worse than the original. And yes, it is/was the only time a nuclear sub sunk an enemy vessel. Unigolyn 10:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Confusing sentence

message: Whats with the new picture? We won the war why does it show one of our ships blowing up, it seems at 1st glance as if we were the ones that lost.  Im not good at this editing stuff this needs to be changed to picture that doesnt say we lost.
I agree - sounds boring I know but that picture with the royal marines hiking across the island with the union flag on their backs - thats a pretty iconic picture everyone can recognise. Lets get it changed. [Pagren]
:The article needs a neutral image in the lead section, so I have replaced it with the same one used in the German Wikipedia's article. Incidentally, I think the German article is much better set out and organised than the English one.
:--NSH001 08:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "We won the war why does it show one of our ships blowing up" - that pretty much somes up the unbalanced POV throughout this article - this is a British article an attempt to tempre that is met with aggresion.--Vintagekits 11:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: although, some editors have good intentions and we made great progress in the last months Jor70 11:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead section image

message: One of the many significant imports of Falklands War is the fierce rivalry between England and Argentine teams and fans seen on Football World cup matches. I feel this should be included under cultural impact or elsewhere. Comments welcome. Nyckid 17:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt it. If that was the main cause of the rivalry, it would be the same with all the UK teams. In Argentina-England matches, the Scottish fans seem more friendly to Argentina (making fun about the "hand of god" incident in mexico, and how the English were defeated). Considering the importance of football in both England and Argentina, I think the rivalry would have been as fierce as it is even if the Falklands war had never existed.201.213.16.47 06:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural impact 

message: I was shocked to read this article and find no mention of the "three flags" proposal. Margaret Thatcher indicated she would agree to flying three flags over the islands -- the UK's, Argentina's and the UN's. See here, page 24, 2nd paragraph. The proposal was adopted by the UN, but rejected by the Argentinian military junta. --Abenyosef 19:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mention of the "three flags"? 

message: Just a quick one really, this article has the sink date of HMS Antelope as the 21st of May, yet the article on HMS Antelope (F170) has the sink date as the 24th of May. Which article needs correcting? Dave t uk 13:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Antelope seems to be forgotten by some media these days ,  --Jor70 13:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HMS Antelope sink date 

message: Hi, I have been checking out a few forums dealing with the Falklands War 25th anniversary. 
I just have a question. Does anybody know about ex-US Green Berets fighting on the Argentinean side on Mount Longdon? The reason why I ask is that BBC journalist Robert Fox in "A very British war: the Falklands remembered" (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article2406403.ece) 
recalls meeting a number of US mercenaries serving as snipers with the Argentinean Army.
: Ridiculous, a very sad way to try to hide the help given by the US to UK throught all the conflict. Jor70
: They were not acting for their country, the support from the US is now well understood (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/pip/ufl6t/ ).  In current conflicts, citizens acting individually fight against their own host country, this should not reflect badly on the country.  Besides, the Independent article citing the US sinpers is not corroborated.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:86.132.50.87 (talk • contribs).
:: There were no US snipers in Malvinas,  among a few  Argentine Army and GN commandos the rest were all Argentines conscripts and regular NCOs Jor70 16:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: US Green Berets on Mount Longdon

message: Recent edits by User:Elorangutan (contribs) are both poorly written (full of eufemisms and weasel words) and are intended to give an impression of harshness without actually giving any information. I will remove the comment, and hope the user agrees on discussing the issue and arrive to an agreement before re-introducing such controversial comments. --Mariano(t/c) 13:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Upper hand 

message: This sentence was always since WWII and now we are already at 1974!, in few weeks more someone would find that in 1981 there was a similiar operation somewhere !! --Jor70 02:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  only notable naval and amphibious operation 

message: I tagged the sentence for a citation because I don't know how you can really go about proving that it's still a topic of discussion in Argentina. I think it's just a dubious comment and it's hard to gauge the truthfulness of it. Imasleepviking 18:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fact in question 

message: The Air forces in the Falklands War vindicated the UK decision to develop the STOVL Harrier aircraft, which showed its capability of operating from forward bases with no runways.  Im not sure if it is properly to mention this at least if means the UK decision to maintain 'at least the VSTOL carriers instead of nothing.. if the Royal Navy would have its ARK Royal with her air groups of Phantoms with AEW Gannets  surely 6 more ships should had return to the UK and her Bucaneers would be more capable of strike any target even in the mainland. Also, how many times and with which results were used from forward bases during the hostilities ? Jor70 17:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: vindicated the UK decision to develop the [[STOVL]]

message: I am not talking about the Spanish name of the war "Guerra de las Malvinas" which is perfectly fine, but the specific "Malvinas War" which according to Vintagekits is as equally widely used as Falklands War in English. If you're going to insist on such prominence for your term, then you'd better source it properly, otherwise you have no justification for putting it in the lead. My argument is based on Wikipedia policy, so please do not knee-jerk accuse me of pushing a pro-British POV at me as you have done to others above, but instead focus on sourcing your opinion properly. This entire argument has become rather over-blown and very unpleasant to read, either prove your case conclusively or give it up.--Jackyd101 21:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. --Guinnog 22:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing could be further from the truth Jacky. Infact I have been trying to discuss this issue in a rational mannersince January but have been ignored, it was not until I put the NPOV tag on the article that anyway bothered to even address the issue and to be honest it kinda pisses me off that I have to stir things up a bit even to get a discussion going but this seems the waythat wiki works these days. I never said that the Malvinas is used as much as the Falklands in the English language I said it is a significant minority term, it is recognised as the equal term for the islands by the UN and due to the disputed nature of the islands we need to recognise it also. I welcome the debate by the way.--Vintagekits 23:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As a significant minority term (maybe 10%?) it may merit inclusion in the article, but certainly not in the lead. --Guinnog 23:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Just had my point proven - Squeakbox has reverted my edits for months but refused invitation to enter into a discussion despite the majority of people here stating that it should be in the article - that is Class A edit-warring isnt someone from admin going to do something about this rather than giving me stick even though I have been trying to rationally bring this discussion forward for months.--Vintagekits 23:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember that in the case of decolonisation the UN is not necessary a neutral third party, as its stated intent is to cause decolonisation, not just to adjudicate over it, but for it to happen. Honestly? I've rarely, if ever, heard the Malvinas Term used over here as a primary term. Not even in the left wing. I have some vague recollection of the nationalist parties sometimes using the term (Alec Salmond I believe) but I could be mistaken. Either way, if we are looking at it from a purely 'whats used in English' standpoint, Malvinas /should/ have a subservient role. I think if we argue that its a two party conflict and thats the English translation of the name used by the other conflicting party then that would likely get more support. And, I hate to say, but the disputed nature of the islands is a cause of the war and nothing more, in relation to this article. If we went around naming things based on what claimants of the time called them in every article vaguely related to them, the wikipedia would be bloated with extra brackets. Lets keep the disputed nature as regards naming into the sovereignty of the falkland islands article, and keep their disputed nature as a cause of conflict in here. Narson 23:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Honestly? I've rarely, if ever, heard the Malvinas Term used over here" - I dont doubt it Narson but that is because you are British (like Squeakbox and Gunniog) - I am not and when talkin in the English language many other nationalities use the term Malvinas either in tandem or instead of the term Falklands and that needs to be recognised.--Vintagekits 23:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Except your claim hasnt been proved. An American commenting on our discussion of this issue on my talk page said he'd never heard of it either (OrangeMike), and while I've only spent a month or so in Ireland I certainly didnt here it there either, SqueakBox 23:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it should go in 'other names' or somesuch. The article should name things as the participants did or in the common name if the participants called it something lost to time or simply daft. I'm in favour of Malvinas War, not for the reasons you stipulate and not in the context you put foreward. (And I'm kinda British, yes. But only kinda ;) ) Narson 23:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not how other wars deal with their alternate names as seen in this discussion why should this article be any different.--Vintagekits 23:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having looked through wikipedia, you are right, having checked the naming convention on several campaign, battle and war pages, it would seem the usual method would be to call this 'Falkland's War (Also known as 'Guerra del Malvinas' (spanish) or 'Malvinas War') and then continue to use Falkland's War through most of the article. But I doubt this is the result you were debating for? [My spanish is rubbish, I know] Narson 00:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I doubt if anything like 1% of English speakers use this term, 1% would be several milion people, 10% would be tens of millions for what is a word with no common usage, SqueakBox 23:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Two wows at once First wow, Squeak actually discussing the issue and Second wow an argument based purely on POV and OR. I'll say no more.--Vintagekits 23:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually I have discussed this issue extensively with you at Falkland Islands (and it is the same issue). OR on a talk page. That's a new one. What is POV about not wanting an extreme minority viewpoint expressed in a non common usage term in the opening, enought hat we mention Malvinas as a Spanish word but I am gl;ad that me allegedly arguing a POV and OR comment has sufficient rareness to merit a wow, SqueakBox 23:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV outdent 1

message: Outsider's view: As a neutral party, may I comment? The lead had been quite stable for quite some time (I carefully reviewed the history), until Vintagekits changed it (with bad grammar and all) and then reverted any attempt to change it back. Something this sensitive should have been proposed here before changing it. In the interest of keeping this civil, I suggest that the lead get put back to the stable version before Vintagekits' edit, until a consensus can be reached to change it. In fact, I'm gonna be bold and go do this, not because I endorse one view or the other, but because I endorse stability in the encyclopedia, and I would ask that all parties in this dispute respect the concept of "discuss first" with such sensitive subjects. Stability and consensus is vital to this project, and while change is good, change should come after discussion. This isn't worth an all-out edit war. Work together folks. AKRadecki 02:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think if you look here and in the two threads below that that I have been trying to discuss this issue for nearly five month. The problem on English language wiki is that porportionally in has a larger number of British editors editing this article than anyone else and they have been stonewalling this issue.--Vintagekits 10:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Outsider's view

message: I believe that the title of hte article should be the Falklands war/Malvinas War.  Reuters News service alternated between both names during the conflict.  While I think that British and Argentinian people my call the war one name or the other, for the purposes of this unbias encyclopedia both names should be used to preserve neutrality.  Wikipedia is not here to say that the island is rightfully british or argentinian, its job is to provide information.  If both names aren't used then it adds weight to one position and not the other.  If that is allowed then we are doing ourselves and wikipedia a diservice.Maplecelt 02:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Neutral person's comment for the purpose of spurring discussion: While it is obvious that the British call the island "Falklands" and the Argentines (Argentinians? sorry if I misspeak here) call them "Malvinas". The more important question, though is what does the rest of the English-speaking world call them? This is, after all, the English-language Wikipedia. So, fans of maps and atlases, especially you with older editions: Was Malvinas a generic, universally-accepted alternative, or is it a name used mainly (or uniquely?) in Argentina? This is important, because we have some similar precendents already set for how we address issues in articles. AKRadecki 05:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Maplecelt, and have made the point already. If as AKRadecki suggests that the article be reverted and discussed first, then the tag should stay during discussion. On a personal point I am not intrested in what the rest of the "English-speaking world call them",the English speaking world should not dictate or determine our understanding of , or opinions on, our view of things. Parity of esteem, it what is being asked for, and being resisted. What we aim for is neutrality, and because this is the English version of Wikipedia, we must respect the views of non-English speaking Editors. What did the Argentinians call the war? If they called it the Malvinas War, then in the interest of balance, it should be included.--Domer48 09:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to change the Article name, I suggest you use the normal method to ascertain consensus. And read Wikipedia:Naming conflict and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) first. And one of the first statements of Naming is "Generally, article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." GraemeLeggett 10:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well lets get the lead section to acknowledge the fact that it is also reffered to as Malvinas and then we can talk about a name change if that is then needed (I am not sure it is). What is true is that the current version is unacceptable and not NPOV.--Vintagekits 11:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vintagekits, I'm not sure I get your point...the lead section does acknowlege the fact that the islands are referred to as "Malvinas". Currently, "Malvinas" is the eighth word in the lead paragraph. Is that not good enough? Is it the fact that it's italicized that bothers you? Let me give you an example of where I was going. Besides the point that GraemeLeggett makes about our naming conventions, when an article is about an American subject, U.S. English is used, when the article is about a British subject, British English is used. The point is that we conform some of the language to the subject. These islands were a British colony before Argentina existed as a nation, and before the nation before Argentina existed. They are still British. That's a reality, it's not a political bias. They were named by the first explorer to set foot on them, who happened to be British. This is a historic reality. The predominant maps of the world use the term "Falklands". Wikipedia is not a soapbox for people with political agendas to make their mark in the world. You (Domer48) may not be interested in what the rest of the English-speaking world calls them, but the reality is that this is the English-speaking Wikipedia. No one here is dictating your understanding of things, or your view of things. What we are asking is that you respect the policies and guideleines. AKRadecki 15:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but is only acknowledges that it is referred to as the Malvians in the Spanish Language - but it does not acknowledge that it is referred to as the Malvinas War in the English aswell. --Vintagekits 15:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you think that the purpose of Wikipedia is to "acknowledge" something, then you don't understand the purpose of Wikipedia. We are not an advocacy forum. AKRadecki 15:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree Pable, we are not trying to reinvent the wheel here, however we must (I am struggling to carry on the wheel analogy now) reflect what type of wheel already exists.--Vintagekits 15:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name

message: Although some people persist in calling it "Port Stanley", this is not and was not the official name of the town before or after the war (discounting the numerous names that the Argentines gave it). "Stanley" without the "Port" prefix was established long before the war, and on 2 August 1956, the Officer Administering the Government of the Falkland Islands reported to the Secretary of State for the Colonies in London as follows:
:There is some difficulty over the correct name of the capital. Early despatches contain reference to both Port Stanley and Stanley. Port Stanley was accepted by the Naming Commission set up in 1943 to consider the names then being included on the War Office maps. Local opinion differs on the matter, but there is no doubt that Stanley is now common usage and has been for some considerable time. The capital is defined as Stanley in the Interpretation and General Law Ordinance. In the circumstances I would advise that the correct name for the capital is Stanley.
It was not officially Port Stanley in 1982, is not Port Stanley in 2007, and was plain Stanley during the 1960s, 1970s, most of the 1980s, 1990s and present day.
This is nitpicking, I know, but it is a point of accuracy. 
--MacRusgail 17:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think perhaps the UK media used the term "Port Stanley" too much at the time, which let to its prominent place in popular culture. Sources such as that quoted above would not be necessary otherwise. The only question is how best to cover this "popular misconception" in the article. SheffieldSteel 17:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why not ''Port'' Stanley? 

message: The following material does not fit under the section it was added to. If anyone wants to put it somewhere else, go ahead. SheffieldSteel 20:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed from Falklands veterans' afflictions 

message: 11,313 taken prisoner? Is that true. Can someone explain this fact cos I dont beleive it can be true. Also there is not mention of this in the main article. --PrincessBrat 21:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Prisoners

message: “A Royal Navy task force was sent to the Falkland Islands to defend them from Argentine attack five years before the war there, archive papers have shown. 
The flotilla led by nuclear-powered submarine HMS Dreadnaught was thought to have deterred a 1977 invasion. 
James Callaghan's government secretly ordered Operation Journeyman after 50 Argentine "scientists" landed on South Thule, prompting fears of an attack. 
The details have been disclosed for the first time by the National Archives. 
The Argentines eventually invaded the Falklands five years later in 1982. 
Lord Owen, who was foreign secretary in 1977, said that if Margaret Thatcher's Conservative government had taken similar action to that of five years earlier, the war would not have happened. 
The papers show Lord Owen insisted the 1977 mission was conducted in intense secrecy. Even the crews did not know where they were going. “
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4597581.stm
69.72.92.194 22:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure this puts any light on it, I mean, wasn't the war partially caused by the cutting down of Falkland forces, causing the argentines to believe we were giving them permission to take the islands and we wouldn't cause a stink? So its no suprise if we had sent war ships around the islands, that the Argentines may not have invaded. Its also not a suprise the Argentinians had tried this stuff before, they openly state their intention to take the islands in their constitution. Narson 17:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I came across this interesting bit of classified information that came out in 2005 that throws a very different light on the subject 

message: I've taken a look at the article in Spanish.  At first glance, it seems to be much better and has a lot more to say.  Even though it is flagged as being a bit to long, it is currently a featured article.  Perhaps someone with better Spanish language skills than me can take a look to see if there is anything that could be brought over and translated for addition to the English article. 87.112.73.252 07:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia isn't really interested in the size of articles but rather the quality. In my opinion this article is extremely good. It was a featured candidate in 2004 but failed, the main complaints then were the lack of a lead section and low referencing. Since then both of those have changed and i expect it would probably pass a FAC review now, infact I'm surpised no ones tried. A december peer review also had good things to say about it. I looked at the spanish article and didn't find it any better, infact there were several statements in there that are disputed for example but the article doesnt acknowledge it. However, as the english wikipedia we have to deal with both english - english speakers, american - english speakers etc. but also argentine, spanish etc. english speakers. As a result I think we have reached a good point where argentine views are representated as well as British views. Obviously the article will read slightly tipped in British favour, well, what do you expect? The victor writes history as has always been the case and this was a decisive British victory which secured one governments future and destroyed anothers. WikipedianProlific(Talk) 09:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I should also note that Spanish generally takes up more room than English eg a full date takes about twice the space on the page, the longer Romance words which can be rendered shorter in English synonyms. GraemeLeggett 09:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Also now I look at the article - there are some long quoted passages in it and the English version has sub articles where there are none shown in the Spanish eg the Black Buck raidsGraemeLeggett 10:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison with the article in Spanish 

message: I really think the map ought to encompass both combatants as well as the scene of the conflict. I realise this means including most of the world on the map, but otherwise there is no perspective to be gained on the distance the Royal Navy had to fight, for instance. 128.208.1.238 01:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Starting to work through the citation needed tags.
This one:
As a result of Major Mario Castagneto's efforts, his 601st Commando Company was able to move forward on their Kawasaki motorbikes [citation needed] and commandeered Landrovers, under heavy mortar fire, and rescue the trapped 602s on the slopes of Mount Kent. Major Castagneto was awarded the CHVC for this overland rescue and was wounded in the mortar bombardment when a piece of shrapnel cut through his belt buckle.
Appears to be the complete opposite of what happened from other sources.  
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/David/kent2.html
Major Mario Castagneto, who commanded 601 Commando Company was itching to get to grips with the British on the Kent zone. Authorised to make a reconnaissance in force to the Kent ridgeline, he turned this into an "advance to contact". The Special Operations Group was to have reached the Kent ridge line in jeeps with Major Mario Castagneto on Monday 31 May but, because Malvinas Joint Command believed the British aircraft carrier 'Invincible' had been sunk the day before, the forty Air Force Commandos under Wing Commander Alberto Cajihara, were redeployed to guard the TPS-43 long-range radar against an expected Special Air Service attack. (See Isidoro Jorge Ruiz-Moreno, Comandos en Accion:El Ejercito [Argentino] en Malvinas, p. 292, Emece, 1986) It was 0955 Falkland Islands time on Monday 31 May when 602 Commando Company on Estancia Mountain saw 601 Commando Company in a column of Land Rovers and Kawasaki motorbikes coming to the rescue but the rescue bid failed when 42 Royal Marine Commando Battalion's 81 millimetre Mortar Platoon dispersed Major Mario Castagneto's Special Forces Company. The bike ridden by Drill Sergeant Juan Salazar was thrown into the air by a near-miss and seconds later his bike recieved a direct hit. The 601st Commando Company was deluged with mortar rounds and Major Mario Castagneto received a nasty wound when a piece of shrapnel cut through his belt buckle. Faced with such opposition, the force had no option but to withdraw to Two Sisters Mountain. Lieutenant-Colonel Nick Vaux on Mount Kent was later to recall in his memoirs (March to the South Atlantic, Buchan & Enright, 1986) the ground around Major Mario Castagneto and his men erupt in gouts of peat and rock splinters under the sustained impact of dozens of mortarbombs. At 1030 Captain Eduardo Villarruel on Estancia Mountain muttered "we have to give in". After conferring with Captain Ferrero, Villarruel ordered the withdrawal of the 602nd Special Forces Company. The 3rd Parachute Battalion closing in from Estancia House convinced Villarruel of the futility of further resistance. "If the Argentinian withdrawal had begun a day later, it would have been disastrous for the Commando force," wrote Isidoro Jorge Ruiz-Moreno, the official historian of the 601st and 602nd Commando Company and the Elite 25th Regiment of the 'Ejercito Argentino'.
Britains Small Wars is usually a reliable source of information and its quoting the official Argentine historian.  So I think this may need re-writing.  Justin A Kuntz 10:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As no sources substantiating the current edit have been supplied I've edited the text along the lines suggested by this source.  Justin talk 20:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Special Forces on Mount Kent 

message: Continuing to work through the citations.  From memory there was a 100 yr closure order related to the Falklands war but I don't rely on memory.  I can't find a source, can anyone help?  Justin talk 21:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  100 yr closure order 

message: What was the USSR's attitude to the war? Rusty2005 15:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet Union 

message: Can't add this now - last section  John 07:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK Media Censorship 

message: I am not sure what '(The army and the RAF have already been tailormade for NATO.)' is acctually trying to say or what its saying within context of the paragraph. Is it saying that the army has been tailormade to fight within NATO? Thats a nice observation, but totally irrelevant to the decline of blue water navy thinking and the decline of the navy in general....it just seems to be some random thoughts someone bunged in somewhere down the line...Narson 22:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The original headline of the section was "Royal Navy was saved by the Falklands War". Royal Navy benefited from the Falklands War since John Nott wanted to decrease the number of ships. The Army and RAF were already downsized to UK's contribution to NATO in Northern West Germany only (except Northern Ireland and ceremonial duties for the Army and national air defence for RAF), but Royal Navy was still a blue water navy due to Britain's commitment to the former empire. Since most colonies were sovereign in primo 1980's, Royal Navy was overqualified. Royal Navy was saved by the Falklands War from a 'Green-water navy' destiny. The Army and RAF didn't benefit from the war in similar fashion, in fact the Vulcan bombers were still scrapped in 1983. I've changed the headline to a more logical one. Necessary Evil 06:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Justin A Kuntz. Has your 'feelings' something to do with an US-British dispute regarding brown water/green water navy classification? Since it's Royal Navy, the British term should be used - what is the modern British name? Necessary Evil 15:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really, I just thought it was a clumsy title and using a technical term that perhaps a layman wouldn't understand.  We're attempting to write an encyclopedia not a naval college dissertation.  Justin talk 16:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the British-English term is.. Necessary Evil 16:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Blue water. A navy capable of operating across large, deep oceans with significant force projection capabilities (air cover, submersible defense and amphibious support are all implied) at relatively short notice is the british definition of a blue water navy. One has to be careful when comparing US and UK naval terms as the two navies have evolved quite seperately. Generally in the UK the term brown or green water isn't used, instead the term 'littoral' is used for areas close to land. WikipedianProlific(Talk) 22:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't the UK use 'Expeditionary Fleet' in favour of 'Blue Water'? Though, I am sure we call it Blue Water Doctrine....? Narson 22:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see someone beat me to it, the British term would be littoral. Green/Brown tends to be an American term.  Green implies a littoral or mainly coastal force, brown implies an estuarine or river based force.  Green may be capable of blue operations just to confuse things.  I would suggest there was never any intention to operate a Green Water navy since the main focus was ASW in the North Atlantic - not a Green Water operation.  Justin talk 23:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The recently deleted and re-added bit