Talk:Athletics at the 1908 Summer Olympics – Men's marathon

message: Canada had a different flag then. John FitzGerald 17:37, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed they did.  Nor were they the only one. I've fixed the flags. -- Jonel | Speak 21:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Flags

message: While the track officials, Jack Andrew and Dr Michel Bulger, did touch Dorando, the films of the race (for example Marató dels Jocs Olímpics de Londres 1908) clearly show that they did not help him across the line. (PeterDebney (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Dorando Pietri

message: Almost everywhere you look on internet where Marathons and their routes are mentioned you also get to read some utter b*ll*cks about the 1908 event. I suggest a small section be dedicated to them, maybe with content as follows?
=== The length of the 1908 Marathon was exactly 26 miles 385 yards. ===
Not necessarily! Jack Andrews (surveyor of the route) published in April 1908 that the course would be "about 26 miles from Windsor Castle to the Stadium plus a lap of the track". The track was (in keeping with British practice of the day) a third of a mile long. However, once the stadium was completed (in about June 1908) he realised that the runners would have to enter the stadium through a different entrance, and that the distance on the track became 385 yards. However, the distance from the start to the stadium remained "about 26 miles". But no-one knows exactly how close to 26 miles it was. So the total distance that was run on the day is only approximately 26 miles 385 yards.
=== The length of the modern Marathon is the same as the 1908 Olympic Marathon to commemorate the heroic finish of Dorando Pietri. ===
Not really. The runners of the 1908 marathon turned professional after the event, and toured the world (especially North America) staging re-runs of the race. Naturally, they re-used the advertised 1908 distance for these runs (ignoring the "about 26 miles" bit, and assuming "exactly 26 miles"), and this became established in the immediate pre WWI days. In 1921 the Olympic committee pretty well had to standardise on the same distance as it had become a fait accompli at most running clubs by then. (I notice that the article currently hints at this claim being true).
Actually, the distance chosen in 1921 was the closest metric equivalent of 26 miles, 385 yds: i.e. 42.195 km. The difference between the two values is about 16 cm (remember that the pre-1959 British yard was 0.9143969 m). Modern rulebooks for the Marathon have tightened this definition, insisting that 42.195 km is the utter minimum distance runnable by cutting the corners to the maximum. They state that planners should aim for a course 1.001 times 42.195 km in order to guarantee this, in other words a modern legal Marathon will have actually been measured at around 42.237 km. See Short Course Prevention Factor.
=== The length of the modern Marathon is 26.2 miles.===
False. 26.2 miles would only be 26 miles 352 yards. Obviously wrong, but you see this printed in newspapers all the time.
=== The Marathon is the only Olympic event to be officially measured in non-metric units.===
False. As seen above, the official distance will be anywhere between 42.195 km and 42.237 km. In April 2012, the New York Times wrongly claimed "At the Summer Olympics, the marathon will be the only foot race measured by the standard system(sic) instead of the metric system."[ref here]
===The entry to the stadium had to be changed "only days before the race".===
It was changed quite late in the planning, true, but not mere "days before". The race route was advertised in the Illustrated London News a week before the race as being about 26 miles from Windsor Castle to the Stadium plus 385 yards on the track.
===The start was on the East Terrace Garden so that the royal children could watch.===
False. The start was on the East Lawn, about 150 m away from the East Terrace Garden.
===The start was on the East Terrace Garden so that some (unidentified) (possibly unwell) member of the royal family could watch.===
False. See above.
===The start was changed late in the planning.===
False. The Polytechnic Harriers published the route in April 1908, showing the start location that was eventually used. It is true that the test race run in that April from Windsor to Wembley used a different start, but that was planned.
===The finish was moved so that Queen Alexandra could have a better view.===
False. The finish line was always right in front of the Royal Box. It is true that when the race designers were forced to use a different entry to the stadium, they also reversed the direction of running on the track to go clockwise, but that was so that more of the spectators got a close-up view. The Queen would have had just as good a view regardless of the direction of running. (I notice that this very article wrongly makes this claim).
===The "25 miles to go" plaque on the building in Eton implies that the start was 1 mile 385 yards away from there.===
False. The distance markers on the route referred to the distances still to be run to the stadium. Not to the finish line. The plaque in Eton (immediately north of Barnespool Bridge, on the left) is 1 mile from the start. Approximately.
===The track officials helped Pietri over the line===
False. It can clearly be seen (from the news footage) that Pietri pretty much fell over the line on his own. However, he had been helped to his feet several times by the track officials prior to that - and that's what got him disqualified.
===In the famous photo of Pietri crossing the line, the man on the left is Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.===
False. The man on the left (carrying a megaphone, and wearing a straw hat) is Jack Andrews, designer and surveyor of the course. Conan Doyle was present, but not on the track. He had been commissioned to write a commentary on the race for the Daily Mail newspaper. The man to the right of Pietri in the photo is allegedly Dr. M. J. Bulger, the chief medic.
Citations would be needed of course, but can be provided. Does anyone apart from me think a section like this would be a benefit? You do read some utter twaddle about the 1908 marathon! Steve Hosgood (talk) 12:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I am all for including accurate information with citations, however, I am opposed to a section designed merely for dealing with what we believe are popular misconceptions. Location (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misconceptions surrounding the 1908 Marathon and its route 

message: False. The man on the left (carrying a megaphone, and wearing a straw hat) is Jack Andrews, designer and surveyor of the course. Conan Doyle was present, but not on the track. He had been commissioned to write a commentary on the race for the Daily Mail newspaper. The man to the right of Pietri in the photo is allegedly Dr. M. J. Bulger, the chief medic.
Citations would be needed of course, but can be provided. Does anyone apart from me think a section like this would be a benefit? You do read some utter twaddle about the 1908 marathon! Steve Hosgood (talk) 12:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I am all for including accurate information with citations, however, I am opposed to a section designed merely for dealing with what we believe are popular misconceptions. Location (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: In the famous photo of Pietri crossing the line, the man on the left is Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

message: It is claimed in the article (and elsewhere) that there were protests (but from whom?) about tramlines and cobbles in the last couple of miles of the original route. Allegedly, Jack Andrews responded by re-routing across Wormwood Scrubs and in doing so, added a few hundred yards to the distance.
I've got a few issues with this! The entire last four-and-a-bit miles of the course from Sudbury Station to the Scrubs followed the tramlines of the number 62 tram from Sudbury to Paddington. It's hard to say, but the entirety of Harlesden High Street may well have been cobbled . No-one seems to have complained about that! What was special about the "original route" (that didn't go over the Scrubs) that made its tramlines and cobbles any worse than the previous stretches? Has anyone even got a citable reference to say that this alleged complaint ever even happened?
Additionally, assuming the route was always planned to come down Station Road from the Jubilee Clock in Harlesden, how can cutting across Wormwood Scrubs add to the route? Such a route has got to be a shortcut (compared with the roads), unless the route across the Scrubs zizagged or something. Bear in mind that Wulfstan Street (to the immediate west of the prison) didn't exist at the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by  Steve Hosgood  (talk • contribs)  13:49, 28 August 2012‎ (UTC)
:It appears User:Jnestorius added that information with this edit last month and he appears to be citing the Bob Wilcock reference. I don't have it but we can ask him to clarify. Location (talk) 16:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't really add the information; I cut-pasted it to this article from Marathon. I have no knowledge of the sources and simply took the material in good faith. You can ask at Talk:Marathon; or inspect that page's page history to see who added the information there and then ask on their User talk. jnestorius(talk) 20:05, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's any consolation, jnestorius, Distance Running repeats the claim that the finish was altered. However, it doesn't offer any evidence. The nearest possibly verifiable info I've spotted is in chapter 24 of John Bryant's "The Marathon Makers" where Bryant claims that in 1969, Arthur Winter wrote a history of the Polytechnic Marathon to celebrate its 50th year. Jack Andrew had been interviewed at that point, and claimed that his original route for the 1908 Marathon had been about 24.5 miles, but he'd heard that the London Evening News planned to promote a professional road race over the same course. Not wanting the strictly amateur Olympic Marathon to be "polluted" by any link with such a thing, he changed the planned route, including the planned finish. Make of that what you will. Notice there's no mention of tramlines or cobblestones! But Bryant does state that it's not clear if time had clouded Andrew's memory, as if he was not quite convinced...  Steve Hosgood (talk) 22:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged protests about the last couple of miles