Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 26

message: Forgive me breaking in , but I refer good editors to the Indictment made against the Nazis and other parties as totheir Conspiracy or Common Purpose. There have been numerous attempts made directly to me, and directly within the Wikipedia presentation of the overall Nazi History, to claim that Hitler came to power legally, that he was voted into power legally, that he had an accession to power. This informs everything from Holocaust downwards so , since a User, a usual User, managed to set a Wikipedia Archiving record of precisely six minutes to separately Archive the relevant Nuremberg Indictment covering the so called accession to power, may I leave this link to that sourced Indictment? It is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ludwig_Kaas/Archive2 ,[]. To reduce it to its pith, others were incited to join with the conspiracy towards the paragovernmental organisation, the conspirators possessed themselves of the machinery of the German State, and theyreduced the Reichstag to a body of their nominees. There was no legality in the possession nor in the reducing, and statements as to legality of Hitler's achievement of power should not be supported in the Articles, nor those others incited allowed the assumption of legality and such good faith as this and other Articles maintain, even by omission.
EffK 00:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is hindsight semantics. The force of law was convincing enough to the establishment at the time. There is a legal problem with the Nazis having coerced the exclusion of socialist deputies from the Reichstag, but at the time even this was "justified" through sundry emergency powers rationales. The constitution itself was (deliberately) flawed in 1918 and the flaws were for the most part cleaned up in the post war Bonn constitution. Wyss 00:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome back Wyss. Establishment ? Indeed it was Arthur Rosenberg who delineated the flaws within months, which is hardly hindsight. And it is rather more hindsight to characterise it all as legal and brought about by the powers of oratory, what? EffK 09:31, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: EffK, the illegality of one element/action/event does not mean that the government suddenly is no longer the legal government. Str1977 12:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nuremberg Tribunal and questions of 'legality' in  Hitler, Kaas and related Wikipedia Articles

message: ::*The use of the term terror in the intro is open to the same criticism as the current use of the term War on Terror. Terror is the state induced in the victim, and not the politically-motivated means by which that state is induced, the term for which is terrorism - but would terrorism (rather than, say, paramilitarism) be appropriate in this article? Perhaps police intimidation and paramilitary brutality gives the right combination.
::*We've had it out before on the length of the introduction. Most are agreed that the inclusion of Holocaust is appropriate, but it seems to me that this justifies the inclusion of other aspects of Hitler's career, leading to over-accomplishment. I suggested an even lengthier intro (Intro again section above) - for the sake of readability - but if the intro is to be brief, then it should be confined to - Name/DOB-DOD/parents/education/war-service/party leadership/chancellorship/caused (or provoked or started) WWII/defeat. In other words, a standard WP histroy biog intro. It is simple, after all!--shtove 00:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is more or less my take on it, too. With this article, IMHO, less is more for an intro. Wyss 00:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terror and the Intro (normal service is resumed) 

message: "Looking back to German history in the early 1930s when National Socialism (Nazism) was on the rise, there were many outside Germany who said 'It's only rhetoric -- don't get excited'."
Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany, Munich, 4 Feb 2006
Wyss 21:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That quote reveals nothing of historical importance. There were also many inside Germany who said the same, and there were also many both inside and outside Germany who thought otherwise. Let's keep our citations germane. -- Simonides 00:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a citation containing something said a few hours ago on this general topic, by a woman who holds AH's old job title, is relevant enough for mention here on the talk page and certainly at least as relevant as anything any editor here has to say. Wyss 00:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Following your logic, a quote by George Bush on how the US "saved" Europe would also be a relevant quote for WP editors on the history of World War 2, I assume? -- Simonides 00:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Angela Merkel today

message: At this time I would like to propose a variant to Godwin's Law, the Hitler-Bush Rule, whereby it has been observed that, during the presidency of George W. Bush, as any conversation having to do with Adolf Hitler progresses in time, the probability of Mr Bush's name being invoked approaches 1. Similarly, I respectfully propose that whoever invokes Mr Bush's name automatically concedes the discussion and the thread ends. Wyss 00:51, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Simonides was simply reverting to sarcasm as he seems to do frequently.  His manner of "debate" - sarcasm and personal attacks - are off-putting.  Thanks for hanging in there, Wyss.Michael Dorosh 20:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Page clutter. -- Simonides 01:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Hitler-Bush Rule

message: Since Wyss and perhaps some other editors are terribly concerned about an unavoidable POV slant this article may take on within the first few sentences, which I personally think is a small concern given the subject, why don't we all channel our efforts towards cleaning up articles worthy of the cause, such as this long compilation of POV sources, right-wing distortions, and even utter nonsense (with the exception of the section "Criticism") : New Anti-Semitism? I was an early editor on that page and tried with others to get it deleted, but unfortunately there is a very heavy-handed group of ignorant and zealous editors who will obstinately erase or reshape any attempt at objectivity on that and all related articles. With the exception of one or two points, most of the energy expended on this Talk page is wasteful as we seem to agree on generalities but quibble over the choice of words; future editors may even settle for a header without a summary of any sort. -- Simonides 05:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV concerns