Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 53

message: LemonJuice recently added a paragraph to the Institutions section stating this: “Nevertheless, if the context clearly identifies the term as a specific institution, it may be acceptable to capitalize the first letter in references subsequent to the first.”
I have reverted that change for three reasons:
#It seems to negate the point of the guideline, which is to say that generic institution terms such as university and hospital should not be capitalized by themselves.
#Whether the word is capitalized has nothing to do with whether it’s the first reference.
#It’s vague. If the addendum is going to stay, it needs to have some examples that allow editors to distinguish when it’s OK to capitalize generic terms and when it’s not.
--Rob Kennedy 03:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capital letters: Institutions 

message: 04:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Without objection.--HQCentral 23:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't object to it, but it seems too long and complicated. Don't over-legislate, people will be more likely to just Ignore all rules than to follow the guide if they can't find the relevant recommendation. Keep each section short, each with a few bullet points of one or two sentences. Make the section titles more descriptive so that a person coming to the guide can easily get to the section that they want (and not be confused by the name "Stub" which has another meaning on Wikipedia). Most people are going will want a recommendation on a specific style issue they are dealing with, and real examples are helpful examples (use wiki tables). See, for example, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers): A reader wanting to know about percentages finds in the table of contents a section titled "Percentages" and in that section two bullet points, each short. A reader wanting to know what the standard or recommended style is for birth dates, so they find in the TOC a section "Dates of birth and death", and they find several examples. —Centrx→talk • 03:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Way too long - we already have How to pages for tables. We don't need to duplicate those here. Rmhermen 04:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The help page covers how to write commands for tables. I wrote on styling tables. Centrix, I could add some examples, but I would have to upload them as pictures from MS Word because I possess only a basic familiarity with HTML. Styling tables is one of the most complicated things a writer can do. There are many more things to think about than when styling lists or links. I see what you mean about the "Stub" subheading, but the other subheadings seem pretty self explanatory. Most of the entry can't be compressed because it contains too much information. I can shorten it slightly, but too much of that would make it choppy and omit important information. I understand that large articles tend to frighten and confuse readers, but some subjects simply cannot be explained quickly.--HQCentral 04:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think what you are trying to do is what our Manual of Style does. "There are many more things to think about than when styling lists or links." That isn't what the MOS is about. Some of your proposed procedures are not followed on Wikipedia, others are not worth mentioning. I believe I could easily cut out half the text. Rmhermen 05:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try listing this at the Wikipedia:Village Pump. It cannot be an approved policy without a lot more eyeballs and comments. Rmhermen 05:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would recommend placing them elsewhere, but mainly to reduce the size and complexity of the page. Most people find tables a special problem, and they should have a place of their own. DGG 08:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Wikipedia:Manual of Style (tables)' 

message: I can't track down guidance on listing people by surname, forename.  I can find it on categorising, but not listing.  Any help? Do we not have a style guide for lists beyond the proposed and probably needing resurrecting Wikipedia:Manual of Style/(lists of works)? Hiding Talk 19:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most list are alphabetized as last name, first name but are presented as first name last name. Rmhermen 23:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And many are alphabetized wrong. I move them when I see them. DGG 08:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alphabetical order

message: The section on Article titles is not actually about article titles, but the content and formatting of the initial text of the article. In fact, it doesn't mention article title conventions at all... -Harmil 20:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article titles 

message: I've noticed that in older individual year pages (basically pre-20th and 21st century), there seems to be a preference for using "born" when giving the birth year in the list of people who died, and "died" in the list of people who were born (as opposed to "b." and "d."), which seems to conform with the current style guide. But most of the more current years use "b." and "d." Is there a stated exception for this somewhere, or should they be changed? Elizabeyth 20:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Conformity is the aim of MoS.--BlaiseMuhaddib 08:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "born" and "died" vs. "b." and "d."

message: I noticed that there isn't really a description for the see also section which is in my opinion typically massively under-utilised.  It irks me when I have to scroll through an article to find links to where I actually want to get, instead I would like to use the see also section but I notice that editors seem to consider links in the text of much greater priority.  Is there any discussion or guideline on this? MLA 06:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the long-standing consensus at WP:FAC has been that "see also" sections are signs of weak writing, and are to be avoided in favor of discussing the relevant term in the text. Kirill Lokshin 11:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I'll just have to live with it then.  With user hat rather than editor hat on, it's very frustrating. MLA 14:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the word "also" is being taken as "in addition to the links in the article" rather than "in addition to this article".  Perhaps it should be retitled "See" - (on no!). Rich Farmbrough 09:20 6  August 2006 (GMT).
JA: WP:FAC aside, as these sorts of standards are hopefully not cast in stone, yet, many editors find that See Also sections can form a useful Synopsis of the subject, and thus see no harm, and indeed some benefit, in repeating the more important topics in one place.  A well-organized See Also section is also quite useful in long-term article development, for coordinating the articles in a group of related articles.  When a subject matter eventually stabilizes over the long haul, people who like templates can turn parts of the See Also into a template.  Jon Awbrey 16:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: See also sections

message: There is a page called Wikipedia:Embedded list which is not policy or guideline (at least it is not labeled as either.)  Never-the-less, it is sometimes referenced as if it were a guidleine.  I have proposed an ammendment to this pseudo-guideline at Wikipedia_talk:Embedded_list.  Please see that page if you wish to participate in the discussion about appropriate circumstances for using a bulleted list within an article. Johntex\talk 21:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Embedded lists

message: I've seen a couple articles that use "see below" links in the lead. Since the TOC is nearby I find this rather odd. I don't think it looks good either in the lead, or elsewhere in the text. Do any of the numerous MOS pages have a statement about this? Gimmetrow 15:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See below