Talk:Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi

message: Link to the relevant discussion. Alæxis¿question? 17:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  about the last edits 

message: Can anyone explain me, which normal human beeing would ever come to the mind to denie a massacer where thousands of people were killed or driven out of Abkhazia ? Who is responsible for the disgusting Russian translation ?! TheMightyGeneral (talk) 20:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll have to be more precise - what are you talking about? sephia karta | dimmi 00:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Were thousands killed? There are no casualty counts or estimates anywere  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.211.103 (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian POV 

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replies: text: User_talk:Mkativerata#DAI_Copyright_infringement_deletions:_Sukhumi_massacre Alæxis¿question? 17:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible copyright problem 

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thread_title: File:Pravit.JPG Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: I know it is a sensitive subject but I would expect at least an estimation on how many people killed. It would add some practical value to the article. We are editing an encyclopedia, after all. thanks  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.212.29.190 (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. This is unique for an article on a massacre in not even hinting at the number killed. Is this a deliberate decision or are there really no estimates? Surely there must be official and Red Cross estimates?Royalcourtier (talk) 08:08, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  So far there seems to be no "official" estimate of the casualties in any international documents I have seen. Not even in the Red Cross or HRW. If we have to estimate very roughly, considering that Zhiuli Shartava and other members of the Self-Defense Council were mercilessly tortured and killed (so at least several dozen public servants alone) and also while some of the civillians managed to flee the city before the Abkhazo-North Caucasian onslaught, many (at least tens of thousands) were still left in the city and were also killed, I guess, case can be made for a very, very rough estimate for "several thousand murdered". Let's keep in mind that up to 15 000-20 000 Georgian civillians were killed in the war and a lion's share of these deaths were in Sokhumi.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marovaso (talk • contribs) 11:34, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of casulties

message: The following references were added in support of the statement "Civilian death toll ranging from several thousand to almost 30000":
. Actually all three of them mention the number 30,000 as an upper estimate of the number of casualties during the entire conflict:
Clearly there were victims not only in Sukhumi, so these sources do not confirm the stated number of casualties. Among these three sources only the first one provides a reference for the given figures: , now located at . Their source, in turn, is "Georgian government’s Committee on Human Rights and Interethnic Relations. Human Rights Watch interview with Committee
Chairman Aleksandre Kavsadze, Tbilisi, 2 January 1995", cited from  Georgia Abkhazia: Violations of the Laws of War and Russia’s Role in the Conflict, Human Rights Watch Arms Project, March 1995, Vol. 7, No. 7 p. 5. There's no separate estimate of casualties of Sukhumi massacre in the HRW report, they only write that "Some 50,000 of those fleeing came from Sukhumi".
Therefore I suggest to remove casualty numbers until reliable sources are found and write only that about the 50,000 fled Sukhumi in the aftermath of these events. Alæxis¿question? 19:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I see where you are coming from, but neither the military casualties ( around 2,500 killed ) nor the civilian casualties caused by massacres in other areas such as Ochamchire etc would amount to as many dead "anywhere esle but Sukhumi", especialy due to lack of any greater population in said areas, thus why it is not really odd that so many ( or rather the majority ) dead would appear in and around a town. TheMightyGeneral (talk) 21:04, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, that makes sense, but on the other hand it's still technically WP:OR. Let's leave it for now (I rewrote it a bit). If we don't find sources, I'd suggest to move this to the article text since the infobox is supposed to contain directly relevant and well sourced info.Alæxis¿question? 17:24, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for the number of casualties 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved to Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi. No objections raised to the principle of moving from the old title. If someone wants to change the scope of this article then they can see if that works and maybe propose a move to "Seige of..." later, but that isn't determined for certain by this RM so just sticking to what's there for now.   — Amakuru (talk) 14:42, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Sukhumi massacre →  –
* No sources used in the article use the word 'massacre'
* Using Google books search I found only one book using this term (Oil, Islam, and Conflict: Central Asia since 1945; I'm not counting "books" based on the Wikipedia which unfortunately also show up), and it only briefly discusses it. 
* Ethnic cleansing better describes the situation with nearly all ethnic Georgians fleeing/being expelled from Sukhumi
* The is no single term that is consistently used by reliable sources when describing the events that followed the fall of Sukhumi in 1993. The term 'ethnic cleansing' is frequently applied to describe the events in Abkhazia in general (see Internal displacement and the conflict in Abkhazia by Erin Mooney and multiple sources in Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia).
To summarise, there is no accepted name, and per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(events)#Conventions we should use one of the descriptive names I suggested. 
Alaexis¿question? 23:31, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

text: "Fall of Sukhumi" would seem an expansion in scope from the current article, although I note that there is no wider article for the city fall itself. "Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Sukhumi" seems to be a more focused scope. If the scope is widened, "Siege of Sukhumi" may be a better title. CMD (talk) 01:50, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the feedback. If we do widen the scope to the Siege of Sukhumi, we could incorporate the information from  War in Abkhazia (1992–1993)#Bombing and siege of Sukhumi. Alaexis¿question? 15:13, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 3 February 2021 

message: , can you clarify why you added the NPOV tag? The tag was added without explanation. What are you disputing? What specifically does not appear neutral? Thanks. ParticipantObserver (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Did I? If yes it was probably long ago and I don't remember why. Alaexis¿question? 20:17, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV tag again