Talk:Abbas I of Egypt

message: A recent edit summary reads "All wālis of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty were declared as khedives within Egypt and Sudan; Ismail Pasha was simply the first to receive international recognition of the title". This is correct; see khedive in this wiki, or numerous other sources such as Britannica. Muhammad Ali Pasha, Ibrahim Pasha, Abbas I and Sa'id I were self-declared khedives; the title was officially given by the Porte to Isma'il Pasha in 1867. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There needs to be a better way of saying it than what was done, it just sounds too snarky to keep saying "self-declared" without context.  Sounds like he just set himself up and added random titles, the way it's phrased.  (If that is what he did, then the article should explain that too.) The best approach is, if needed, in the places where it is appropriate, to use the proper term, but also why another term is common or why a different term was used, with a link to the proper article that expands on the topic.  I am noticing that a lot of the articles on various figures in the Ottoman empire are scant on source material, may have been edited by people who do not write in fluent English, and generally need improvement.  Though I'm personally not in a position to make them a priority, nor do I have the time to get the source material needed to do it right, if someone has BOTH a background in the history of the Ottoman empire but can put their own POV aside, AND has the access to good source material (my view is footnoting solves a multitude of editing disputes), then I fully support any improvements to this and other articles. Just, at least, find a less snarky-sounding way to explain the khedive situation. Montanabw(talk) 23:24, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My concern here is the phrase "self-declared Khedive," not that the title was unofficial in their time.  The way it's phrased sounds like these guys were some sort of tin pot dictators who invented titles for themselves. (So does the use of the term in the one place it occurs in the Khedive article, and I see no one providing a source that "self-declared" is the common term of art here, though sources can lead me to change my views on the matter) My read of Khedivate of Egypt suggests that these people did deliberately hype themselves with a title greater than what they really had, but people not familiar with the period won't know this, so the article needs to say something like "like his father, he also gave himself the title "Khedive," though this title was not recognized by the Ottoman Empire until the time of Ismail Pasha."  Or whatever...   If his official title was "Wali," then that is probably what he needs to be called.   To constantly put "self-declared" everywhere in the article sounds odd and reads like a POV criticism.  Now, User 95.150.84.67, let's discuss this and not communicate with edit summaries.  Montanabw(talk) 19:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: IP, Montanabw is correct, in letter and in spirit. Your wording is not neutral, and that in itself is already reason for reverting. Take it to the talk page and find the proper terminology, and a consensus. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 01:08, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-declared khedive