Talk:Dowry

message: The Indian dowry section seems like some propaganda moutpiece from a conservative indian group.  What the hell?  All it does is spit out retorts from them on topics not even brought up in the article in the first place.  That seriously needs to be changed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.15.93 (talk) 23:55, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: serious lack of neutrality

message: So maybe all of the peer reviewed sources I have been reading are completely wrong, but my impression is that dowry in India is not only going strong, but is much, much more prevalent than in the late 80's and 90's.  I think that the "Dowry in India" section needs to be drastically changed. 128.239.47.89 (talk) 05:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ummm....

message: Sorry to be so obtuse, but what is (was) the purpose of dowry? What is the logic behind it? Why was it paid? What (social or economic or other) purpose did it serve? As a bribe(to get someone to marry the daughter)? If so, why should a bribe be necessary? Because women have (had) no intrinsic economic value in themselves? Perhaps they have no economic value because they can't own land/operate a business in their own right? Or because they can't inherit? But then, why the opposite custom among Germanic tribes? Different inheritance customs, maybe?
Grendlegrutch 21:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why?

message: ----
Some of the claims by Quintessencecat are factually incorrect.
1) It has not been substantiated what one means by "staggering number". India Govt website ncrb.nic.in shows that dowry deaths(more than 65% of which are suicides) are only 0.01% . Add to it the fact that these numbers at ncrb.nic.in are alleged crimes and not proven crimes. And last but not the least there is no proof whatsoever required to report a suicide as dowry death. Courtesy IPC 113B, Every suicide by default within first 7 years of marriage is treated as murder by husband AND Contrary to universal cornerstone of justice "Innocent, until proved guilty" it assumes  husband guilty until proven innocent. Despite all of this bias in favor of women, the conviction rate is still below 30%. Thus, the number of accepted dowry murders are well below 0.003%.
2) The second claim that laws punish both women and man equally also is misleading and farce at best. Not a SINGLE women(or her family member) in the 40 years of history of dowry laws in India  has ever been punished for giving dowry as against several lacs of men and families which undergo the trauma when a false case is registered on mere verbal/written statement by an unscrupulous individual. Legally speaking there is no proof required on the woman's part to lodge her complaint and the police is mandated to act and arrest, whosoever has been mentioned in unsubstantiated complaint, by default. In many cases kinds under age ten and sometimes even under age 5 have been sent behind bars for "alleged harassment" of an adult women 25-35 years old. Arrests have happened even when there is prima-facie evidence of husbands or family members being innocent. These arrests without any proof are main tools in the hand of unscrupulous women and family members to exhort huge money(running in lacs and millions) from husband once the marriage has broken. 
it provides seed money.while it hlps a familty too.it s a money goodz or estate gve her parents too brng her husband n marrge.it s cruelty .bcz wmen brth them us...so we hve too clean it up....nd prohibited also
india_crusade 11:59, 02 August 2007 (IST)
----
Would someone be so kind as to go through this article and clean it up? It makes the silliest, most unsubstanciated set of claims I've seen in a Wikipedia article. For example, the claim that the page leads with, "that dowry is a relatively new concept in India," is just ridiculous.
:I agree.  I'm pondering ways to clean it up, but I'm thinking it might need a complete overhaul.  In the meantime, I've marked it for clean-up. -205.156.188.254 17:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I meant to say is that *I* have marked it for clean-up (I forgot to log in before marking it & adding the previous comment). -Rhrad 17:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: disputed

message: In Islam, the groom has to pay a sum of money to the bride as part of the marriage terms i.e. the mahr. However, when comparing the definitions of dowry to bride price, it seems that mahr is closer in definition to bride price than to mahr. Or perhaps isn't it better for mahr to have its own page, rather than be redirected to dowry? --Aidfarh 07:49, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, on further research -- what that is is the dower.  Just removed a section on Islam to dower.  Goldfritha 17:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mahr

message: "A sort of opposite tradition to a dowry is a bride price, paid by bridegroom to family of his bride."
The bride price article says that bride prices were a custom in China as well. Can a society really have both bride prices and dowries? Or is the Chinese practice more of the two families exchanging gifts(in which case it would not really be a dowry or bride price at all)?
As long as I know, the basic procedure of the counter part of so called "dowry"/bride price in tradition Chinese culture is like this: Before the wedding, there is an engagement rite. The groom parents need to give an amount of money or goods to the bride's family. This is reviewed as something like an engagement fee, i.e. the girl is engaged/reserved by the boy (or his family). Then if the girl or her family later cancel the possible marriage before the wedding, the money/goods would be generally returned to the groom's family, otherwise, it will belong to the girl's family. In the wedding, the bride's family would give some goods/money as a gift/assets to the bride, in other words, the bride would bring goods/money with her. This is more viewed as the bride's private savings than something pay to the groom's family. In anyway, this gift to bride is not a must. Although gift with greater value may make the bride feel honorable. It is basically ok for a bride's family to give small-valued gift or even nothing to the bride if the family are poor or due to some other reason. I think the case in China is not what dowry mean in this article. -Augest 05:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  bride price/dowry in China 

message: I'm not an English language native speaker, not even a French Language native speaker, but if dowry is dote in Spanish, dot in French; and trosseau is ajuar in Spanish, trousseau in French; dowry and trosseau are not exactly the same thing; dowry is the tradition you talked about in the article and trousseau is the set of cloths, furniture and other things which the wife usually contributes with in the marriage. I know it is just a matter of nuances, and maybe in English they can be considered synonymous words.
:I don't see anything on the OED about "trosseau" being part of the etmology. Can someone clarify?
::[a. AF. dowarie fem. = OF. douaire masc., dower, dowry: cf. med.L. doāria fem. (1273 in Du Cange), beside doārium, dōdārium, dōtārium, neut.: see DOWER.] (source: OED)
(tyger 20:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe - please correct me if I'm mistaken - that the trosseau is different from a dowry.  The dowry is the parents' gift to the groom, but the trosseau is their gift to the bride (the hope chest), to ensure that she isn't a financial burden while the couple gets their marriage underway.  That's how my great grama spoke of it.  --SHLAMA 05:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the dowry and trosseau both go to the newly-weds' household, I don't think they can be distinguished as such.  The trosseau consists of clothing and similar things, such as sheets, while the dowry consists of land, money, livestock, etc.  Goldfritha 23:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  dowry & trousseau 

message: sorry, i thought this article was about Islamic law. very sorry. --Striver 04:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: edit

message: Baha'i dowry is given toto bride from the groom so that she will have financial resources of her own.  It is only required in countries where dowries are common (not the United States) and women find it difficult to aquire their own wealth from their efforts.
:In which case it is not dowry as traditionally used.  Dower is closer, I suspect.  Goldfritha 23:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baha'i dowry 

message: Hopefully you'll find this relevant.  In England during the Anglo-Saxon period (roughly 5th to 11th century) the 'dower' was called a morgengifu or morning gift which was paid by the prospective husband to his bride.  The laws of AEthelbert show that this could be a very substantial amount in either money or land and certainly paid to the bride herself and not her family.  This is kept by the woman throughout her life to keep, give away, sell or bequeath as she chooses.  In the event of divorce - certainly not an uncommon practice at this time although how common is disputable - the woman will keep the morgengifu along with any children unless she is at fault through 'dishonesty' - explication of this is of course difficult.  The idea of a dowry in England at this time is unheard of as a bride-price, and the practice whereby if a woman is kidnapped her bride-price must be paid - was in fact wergild or manpayment, paid in compensation to the woman, and not in fact as a dowry for her to pay a future potential suitor.
:You incorrectly assume that the comment about the kidnapped woman was referring to Anglo-Saxon England.  Goldfritha 23:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dowry in England

message: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0368-4016(192504)24%3A95%3C213%3ATTTOSA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S
check out this link, it seems to be saying that in south africa the dowry is paid by the husbands family to the wifes
::Yes, it appears to.  The term has not always been used with the precision we could wish for -- but it's describing bride price.  Goldfritha 23:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverse Dowry in South Africa? 

message: This article is sorely lacking on information about dowry tradition in the United States that existed and still does in some areas. Nodekeeper 14:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tradition in North America 

message: Why was most of the information in this section removed as OR?  While one could make the argument that it was over pro-bride, the current version reads as completely pro-groom.
Unless someone can come up with a good reason for keeping it out, I'm going to restore the material.  It jives with other articles I've read about the practice in India (which I'll try to find references for).  The view needs to be a bit more balanced.  Ggugvunt 19:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about Indian Dowry practices? 

message: I noticed that a significant portion of the article on the practice of dowries in India used a geocities website entitled 'Indian Fascism' (http://www.geocities.com/indiafas/) as the sole support. Aren't there better, or in the very least, unbiased, academic sites or papers that could be used as support? 
User:nightcavern (UTC)
:you're correct Nightcavern - that geocities site is not a reliable source and is not good enough as a reference for wikipedia (there is a detailed description on WP:RS about why sites like that one are not acceptable)  The content you removed needs a better source but as far as I can see there's nothing exceptional about what it is claiming so a source should be easily found--Cailil  talk 18:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Geocities?

message: Can someone tag at least the part about dowries in India as innappropriate tone or at least non-international perspective?  I came here to learn more about dowry killings and they are referred to only as "dowry deaths" and the only citation is an Indian men's rights group with no alternative viewpoints.
Also I'm not sure why men's rights and radical feminism belong in the "see also" section, but I could be wrong Tnmonaghan (talk) 19:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tagging article correctly 

message: As dowries are controversial or even illegal in many parts of the world, perhaps the article should discuss this. Kaldari (talk) 18:23, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs a section on dowry reform / criticism of dowry 

message: This article is about dowry, but it had and continues to have sections about countries which practice bride price- the reverse of dowry. It appears that there is a confusion among the editors who wrote that sections. The sections about the African countries actually describe bride price, the Kenya section says "Research has indicated that a decline in the amounts men were willing to pay came as women's value as agricultural labourers declined"- men pay a bride price not a dowry! or "The common term for the arrangement in southern Africa is lobolo" - lobolo is not dowry- it's a Southern African custom where the man gives the family of his  future wife goods before marriage, it's bride price. The article also had sections about Thailand and Cambodia describing their bride price customs. I'm moving the Africa section to the bride price article.5.12.76.126 (talk) 16:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing dowry with [[bride price]] 

message: --did the custom exist prior to contact with Spaniards who brought the ponies?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.43.105 (talk) 07:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native American Custom and Horses? Sorry no way--post contact influence. 

message: I'm removing Vietnam, because the country has a tradition of bride price not dowry. This article again confuses the two. It says:
:"In Vietnam, the dowry was considered bride wealth, remaining under her actual control, rather than being given to her father and passed down as an inheritance to sons. In some instances, where a bride's parents were given the dowry, they then gave part of the dowry to the bride. Although this reflected the relatively high status that Vietnamese women held in their culture, and enabled them to have a certain degree of independence, the practise was condemned by Christian missionaries as a form of wife-buying."
The dowry is not given to the bride's parents/father - that is the bride price!! The dowry is given to the family of the groom.188.25.159.225 (talk) 13:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vietnam 

message: Wiki user Mhakcm is welcome to contribute, but his or her edits without reliable sources, and edit warring behavior is disruptive. This user has done this before, here and here.
Self interpretations of Qur'an, as well as religious blogs and opinion websites are not reliable unbiased sources. For example, the nikah.com cited by user Mhakcm, claims to be The No.1 Muslim Matrimonial Service Provider - commercial websites are not reliable source; the opinion page there is not peer reviewed, does not represent scholarly consensus. Please follow wikipedia five pillars, policies on content and for lede. LukeNancy (talk) 20:48, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mahr and dowry, Qur'an and Muslim matrimonial website as source for content 

message: I am not edit warring as you suggest, but there are major inaccuracies or at least a picture which distorts the truth and reality of the situation and by removing my comments all you are doing is allowing such distortions to remain. Please note that each time you have reverted I have simply not 'undone' but tried to find by searching Google articles that support what I had written and even amended wording and corrected what I had written in the past to make it more neutral and also kept points that are opposing views that I know have no real basis other than prejudice of the authors. It seems however that your views are so influenced by inaccurate western interpretations that you are willing to allow your own self prejudices to alter the focus of your attempted objective analysis, without actually analysing my changes each time but simply see it as hostile to you, and thereby perpetuate wrong understanding on various points which sadly would take pages here to show what I meant and what you have misunderstood, for which sadly I do not have the time. BTW the other examples that you give by here and here are things which in the first one were not know to me to be changes attributed to me if you look at it you will see what I mean and in the second it is similar to your present situation where an experienced editor does not want his/her article altered and any contrary statement found to support other view  point even if not in webpage but in book will object to it as a whole and revert the whole thing rather than read and edit a sentence etc. that they disagree with.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhakcm (talk • contribs) 08:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: reply to above

message: :New info: Indian woman and baby burned alive for dowry, police say  I put this information here because I noticed the article made no mention of this. Mr. Guye (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: New Information

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replies: text: Resolved. Kaldari (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: I think dowries are considered the husband's property in Great Britain, at least among royalty and nobility.  It's hard to find information about this custom however.  Maybe someone here can enlighten us.--Nameshmame (talk) 14:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is Great Britain? 

message: I changed 
:"Dowries continue to be expected, and demanded as a condition to accept a marriage proposal, in some parts of the world, mainly in South Asian, Middle Eastern and North African countries." 
::to 
:Dowries continue to be expected, and demanded as a condition to accept a marriage proposal, in some parts of the world, mainly in parts of Asia, North Africa and the Balkans..
It is more inclusive and reflects the article better. The original lede left out Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Bosnia, Serbia. 2A02:2F0A:508F:FFFF:0:0:50C:313D (talk) 18:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regions of the world today 

message: The section on Afghanistan reads:
:"Dowry is called Jehez in Afghanistan,[105] and is separate from Mahr, sherbaha, and bride price (locally called walwar, toyana, or qalyn). It is a major social issue[106][107]"
It seems to me that Afghanistan primarily practices Mahr and bride price, rather than dowry, although dowry exists too. One of the sources used to support the claim "It [dowry] is a major social issue", is in fact describing bride price, not dowry (the press often mistakenly uses "dowry" instead of "bride price"). This is the source: . 
In fact it appears that the major social issue in Afghanistan is bride price, not dowry - parents are paid to marry their daughters, and so they sell them into marriage:  
I removed "It is a major social issue[106][107]" because it is not properly sourced; also "major" is quite POV and a strong word: such wording is appropriate for India - where numerous reliable sources classify dowry as one of India's principal social problems; but I don't think it is appropriate for Afghanistan. 2A02:2F0A:508F:FFFF:0:0:50C:313D (talk) 22:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted your edit, because UNDP is a reliable source. On page 176, while discussing marriages in Afghanistan, it states, "According to local tradition, every marriage requires two exchanges - Dowry brought by the bride to husband's home; Mahr, the price the groom's family must pay for the girl's hand in marriage." The second source Afghanistan Times confirms this. Please do not delete WP:RS sourced content, or add WP:OR or personal opinions to this article. LukeNancy (talk) 23:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afghanistan 

message: I added to the lede a short mention of violence against women - I added this:
:"In some parts of the world, disputes related to dowry sometimes result in acts of violence against women, including killings and acid attacks."
I know this  is a sensitive issue, but I think that at least a brief mention of it should be in the lede: afterall, the lede is supposed to summarize the article; and there is a distinct section on this topic in the article. If you think it shouldn't be mentioned  in the lede, please discuss this here on talk.2A02:2F0A:507F:FFFF:0:0:50C:851C (talk) 05:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The topic on dowries is very broad in terms of I had no idea that dowries were being practiced in so many different countries. Also, within the article that I am contributing to where I mention Pakistan and their usage of the dowry has made really think in terms of how the dowry is a part of their culture. The statistics within the article are well used and the usage of grammar is really good.
Nia Dokes (talk) 01:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nia Dokes Peer Review 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: How is it that there is no mention in the article of dowry or dowries related to Judaism, Christianity, Israel, or in the Bible? Misty MH (talk) 01:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mention of dowry in Judaism, Christianity, Israel, or the Bible in the article 

message: background history of dowry in nepal 2400:1A00:B050:AA0:91F1:5785:B993:2F5A (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  dowry in nepal 

message: * Telangana Today 27 January 22
 Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:04, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs 

message: Dowry 150.107.205.50 (talk) 15:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dowry 

message: system 150.107.205.50 (talk) 15:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dowry 

message: Which countries are found to be leading the crime rate of dowry? 27.131.213.149 (talk) 09:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countries with highest dowry rate 

message: Huh? Why there is no dowry system in indonesia.
Anyone who knows dowry systen in indonesia can added content here in this lage.
There is no mention of indonesia in this page. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:71F4:4162:9854:8BB6 (talk) 19:18, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indonesia 

message: Usually something that affects zero to 2 people every 100,000 inhabitants is not called a “growing and serious problem”. For example the murder rate in the USA is 6 to 3 times higher. But Wikipedia doesn’t say that the US has a “serious and growing problem” with murders. 67.83.101.225 (talk) 16:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exaggeration, undue weight, and double standard against Bangladesh? 

message: “when women are treated as property. Brides unable to pay the high "price" to marry are punished”
You don’t punish property, unless you are pretty stupid. It’s people who are punished. 67.83.101.225 (talk) 16:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nonsensical quote