Talk:Edinburgh/Archive 1

message: Just noticed the photo has been changed for about the 50210951th time in the last year... ho hum... :) Taras 00:12, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: hopefully each is a 1.99159e-8 th better than its predecessor.  Note, btw, that I propose to delete one image on Edinburgh Castle for legal reasons - see Talk:Edinburgh Castle for discussion.  I think also the same may be necessary on Holyrood Palace, although I haven't uploaded a legal image yet. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 01:13, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Photo 

message: Removed from the subject page: Edinburgh's building layout is a little unusual compared to a lot of cities, this is most likely due to the fact that it has grown slowly for centuries.  The difference is that in standard human geography the structure of cities is based on concentrict circles, with a central financial/retail district, an outer industrial district and a middle residential district with out of town shopping malls located outwith the city limits (at least to start with).  Edinburgh, however, is much better described as a large number of villages and towns that have slowly merged and left a pattern of greens, high streets and residential areas sprawlled throughout the city, with the little industry that Edinburgh has being mostly located in Leith (and more recently South Queensferry).  Some areas were originally developed solely as residential area, such as Craigmillar with it's tower blocks and terraced housing, however without the large out of town shopping parks and the lack of large roads or mass transit (other than buses) these areas have degenerated into slums and are now being redeveloped along the lines of the rest of the city.
This is surreally wrong (except for Craigmillar being a slum). Apart from the oddity of having a couple of mountains within its limits, Ediburgh is very usual of its type. Almost an archetype. 
Where does the idea come from that, as is suggested here, the zoned layout of post-world-war-II  US towns is "standard human geography"?
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Look at london... it has a central financial and retail district surrounded by housing (and in London's case miles and miles of surburbia ouside of _that_ to support the large business district in the center, though in London's case most of the Industrial areas are blobs in the suburbia or (historically) along the river Thames.  How about Paris? Central business and retail district (granted a lot of tourist industry too) surrouned by residential with industrial area beyond that (those more in the center are slowly shifting outwards...  Newcastle? central business and retail surrounded by residential (some old industrial stil extant, but slowly moving outwards) with more industry at the mouth of the Tyne that is slowly being replaced by tourist attractions as industry moves out of town... Ages of London, Newcastle and Paris... prolly getting on for as old as Edinburgh.  Tokyo is an example that bucks the trend with light industry and residential being relatively mixed but it still has a distinctly retail, business and financial center... St. Andrews; mixed center of retail and residential with industry further out (though the majority of housing is outwith the center but nearer than the industry stuff... and your counter examples would be??
*<:@)  -  I'm happy to accept proof to the opposite and it may simply be that bigger cities tend to conform more to the "post-world-war-II US" setup and this is less true of smaller towns, but then again Edinburgh is a city (though small with only about 450,000 inhabitants) so surely it should conform in the same was as London, Paris, Newcastle...
I must say though that your description is, though complimentary to mine (since it only really describes the center of town), much better written, I'm much better at the delivery of content and the minor corrections than editting :) - *<:@)
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Actually, I believe that London is sometimes noted in urban design textbooks as a prototypical example of a city which has grown up out of a bunch of merging villages! Doops 23:47, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geography 

message: The following strikes me as point of view — how would people feel about cropping it a bit?
The street layout, typical of the old quarters of many northern European cities, is made especially picturesque in Edinburgh, where the castle perches on top of a rocky crag, the remnants of a dormant volcano, and the main street runs down the crest of a ridge from it.
– Kieran T (talk | contribs) 10:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Geography revisited

message: I suspect the pronunciation is just going to keep getting changed, because everyone has different accents. Should it perhaps just be removed? I mean, I have a Scottish accent, but it's fairly angicised (long story), so I pronounce it edin-buh-rah, as do a lot of people here. Some Americans would pronounce it edin-burh, and Renata suggests edden-breh. It's wholly subjective... opinions? -- Taras
: The pronunciation guide gives a phonetic guide, and phonemes are deeper language features than accent.  A welshman or an austrialian would still use the correct phonemes, although those phonemes sound quite different in their respective accents.  The two alternatives you and Renata suggest are roughly equivalent, but the pronunciation guide is important to note that "Edin BurG" is wrong (i.e. the wrong fundamental phonemes), as is "Edin Bo Ro", both of which are common to North Americans (where those are the accepted phonemes for ...burgh placenames). -- Finlay McWalter 13:48, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth, as a Scot and having lived all over Scotland, the two most common variants I've heard are ED-in-burra (as currently in the article) and ED-in-bruh (compressing burra into one syllable; also my pronunciation). --Air 22:35, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I suggest /bVrV/ for those final two syllables (equiv of "burra")... or /brV/, maybe... My accent isn't particularly strong, tbh. --Finlay 18:49, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: A neat solution - often used in dictionaries - is to put the optional vowel in parentheses. I'd go with . I think it's right to enclose the transcription in slashes rather than square brackets, indicating  that this is a phonemic (rather than phonetic) transcription, which can apply to any dialect. Blisco 18:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subjectivity of Pronunciation 

message: I'm lothe to remove external links unless they are highly inappropriate, however I'm unsure of this one. An external link was added today that points to a blogger site that, as far as I can tell, is being used to reproduce news about Edinburgh. Should it stay or should it go? My instinct says that it is inappropriate in the context of an online encyclopedia. --Colin Angus Mackay
: Looks ad-driven, to me... I'll give the rest of the links a prune as well. Some of them are only marginally useful (the "hotels" one) and effectively count as endorsing a commercial site... Shimgray 13:00, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. Good to know that my instinct was correct. --Colin Angus Mackay 22:03, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blogs as external links 

message: Could someone provide details on the tourist numbers to Edinburgh. Is the value that the population of Edinburgh increases by 1.5 to 2 million during the festival correct? Is there really upto 2.5 million people in Edinburgh all at once? --Colin Angus Mackay 14:34, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The number I always heard over the last ten years or so was "doubling in size" - ie, to a million people. It is possible that both figures are accurate, but one is misreported; if the city peaks at a half-million visitors, then the total influx of visitors across the entire period might very well be three or four times that. No sources, though. Shimgray 20:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

text: A google search reveals a large number of websites reciting the 'fact' that the population doubles in size during the festival. It's four years since I lived in Edinburgh but from my memories of that time the population doubling during the festival seems like a realistic estimate. The BBC states that 1,251,997 tickets were sold during the 2004 Fringe Festival—granted there are other festivals going on at the same time, but even if no locals bought tickets to fringe events and every tourist only bought one ticket that is still a long way short of 2 million visitors. JeremyA 22:35, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Okay - I'll update the article to correct the information. --Colin Angus Mackay 13:16, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tourist influx 

message: Gordon Brown, the current chancellor of the exchequer, was Rector of Edinburgh University and Chairman of the University Court between 1972 and 1975. From 1976 to 1980, Mr Brown lectured at Edinburgh University. Is this worth mentioning?
:Under Edinburgh University, yes. Here, not really; "politicians who have worked in Edinburgh" is not a small set. Shimgray 18:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gordon Brown 

message: I resized one image and removed :Image:Edinburgh And The Firth Of Forth.jpg to try and improve the page format. The image isn't bad, but the page is not large enough to support so many images. If somebody can find a place to put it that keeps the article flow, then feel free to add it back in. --GraemeL (talk) 16:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Using WP:EL as a basis I have made a major cull of this articles external links. There was a large number of links to individual tourist sites (theatres, museums, ...), plus other minor interest sites. In cutting down to two main links (official tourist info and the council website) along with mapping and wikitravel I think we are a lot more focussed and useful. The tourist info site points to the sites previously listed here. Any comments? Thanks/wangi 12:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems reasonable.--Mais oui! 13:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major cull of external links 

message: I think the lists of schools could be moved out to a List of schools in Edinburgh article. With it in here its just a massive list of redlinks filling up the bottom of the page. Any thoughts? ::Supergolden:: 17:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I'd agree with this, the list is far too long for this page (the see also section was a bit long before it was added).  The list of schools is also on this page: List_of_schools_in_the_United_Kingdom#City_of_Edinburgh, so you could just add a link to there. But that article is already very long, so it probably needs splitting up anyway. Vclaw 18:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. I made a new page anyway - it seems to duplicate the part of the overall List of schools (and what a horrible 'article' that is). I also wrote a short section on Education which replaces both the list of schools and the list of universities/colleges. Perhaps some of the other listy sections at the bottom of the article could be replaced in this way? ::Supergolden:: 12:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Schools

message: I noticed that the Glasgow article had information about the transport in the city, wouldn't it be an idea for the Edinburgh article to have the same? As I live in the city I'll be able to quite a bit of info.
Shaun Mcdonald 2006-03-14
:Sounds good, as long as its not just a list of bus routes or something... Yeah, I like the Glasgow transport section, something like that would be good here. Go for it Shaun. ::Supergolden:: 18:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I started a Transport in Edinburgh article but made a bit of a mess of it, so just left it. It's here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Edinburgh Globaltraveller 09:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transport 

message: I don't want to upset anyone, and I don't mean any disrespect at all to the people that took them, but is there any chance that this page could have better images on it - that are maybe slightly brighter and more inspiring. When you look at the pages for the likes of Auckland or Melbourne, they are stunning. I know the article isn't meant to be a tourist advert, but there are loads of good images of Edinburgh on Commons. Apologies again Globaltraveller 20:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No need to apologise for pointing out how an article can be improved. Perhaps you could provide some links to the commons images you think would be an improvement over the existing ones in the article. If you link them with :Image:Image name.jpg (With a colon at the start) they will be inserted as hyperlinks, rather than clogging the talk page up with more images. --GraemeL (talk) 20:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: There has recently been a sentence added about the brass cobbles in the Royal Mile, with reference to their marking out the position of the old city wall. I know this is true of some of them (certainly for the Netherbow Port), but I always believed that at least some of them, around the site of the Tolbooth, marked gallows points. Is this true? If so, the article should mention that the cobbles have multiple significances. As an aside, but as evidence of the theory at least having some likelihood, I do know for sure that the cobbles on Braid Road had the gallows-marking meaning. Kierant 23:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The brass cobbles in Paliament Square (outside St. Giles) mark out the position of old buildings, not the wall. There is a board opposite St Giles which explains the details, which I don't know off the top of my head. The ones by the World's End are the city walls. I'm not sure about the ones by the Tolbooth, but you're right, they do have different meanings. ::Supergolden:: 08:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Brass cobbles

message: There appears to be a discrepancy between this article, which states ' Edinburgh is the second largest financial centre in the United Kingdom after the City of London', and the Wikipedia article on Leeds, which states 'Leeds has … the largest media, financial and legal sectors outside London'. Thus, which city can rightfully claim to have the second largest financial sector in the United Kingdom after the City of London? I haven’t been able to confirm this either way. --Nicholas 14:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Off the top of my head, Edinburgh would seem more likely - Leeds has a GDP of 25,600 Euro/capita, whilst Edinburgh's 35,000 , and Edinburgh's always had a large financial sector... Shimgray | talk | 16:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Financial markets in Edinburgh and [[Leeds]], which is bigger? 

message: I didn't want to just dive in to change this without first checking with regular editors of Edinburgh pages, but it seems odd: the Edinburgh article—and the separate list of hospitals—refer to the non-existent (and long-winded) page title, Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh at Little France. However, there is already a page, Edinburgh Royal Infirmary. It is out of date, but I don't understand why it is not the one linked to; it only needs a sentence to update it. If nobody objects, I'll update it and change the links. – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 09:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it Kieran, I have wondered the same thing myself.... ::Supergolden:: 11:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Researched and done. The hardest part was coming up with a working external link for the place, since the NHS sites are in a bit of a state of flux. I also wonder if it would be better, pedantically, to rename the page. It's currently Edinburgh Royal Infirmary with a redirect in operation from Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh. Since I believe the latter is the legal name (with or without the "Little France" bit!), it's somewhat backwards to have that one being the redirector. – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 12:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work on updating it, it's now a much better article. I'd say keep the article at Edinburgh Royal Infirmary.  Even if it isn't the official / legal name it is by far the most commonly used name - see for example usage by The Scotsman . Vclaw 12:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infirmary

message: I have found a more reliable source for place-name meaning of Edinburgh. Maybe this should be mentioned?? --Sunfazer | Talk 12:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole placename section could use some references. This Eada's Hill theory is new to me: why do you think it is more reliable? Assuming you can justify it, wouldn't it make more sense if it were mentioned in the same context as the Edwin's Fort theory (i.e. possible Anglo-Saxon names rather than Brythonic).--Philbarker 19:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Place-name meaning

message: I've recently edited a few sections, trying to cut down on some areas that seem to be taking up a lot of space - like the Famous residents section. I've added a rough section on Transport -linking to another article, as this has been missing up until now. The thing is there is still lots that could (and probably should) go into this article - a section on culture maybe (including information about all the Festivals etc) and a section on Landmarks/Tourist attractions, but the article seems to me to be too long as it currently is, without these other quite crucial missing sections. Which brings me to the question is there really a need to list all the Foreign Consulates in Edinburgh on the main article? (I notice other cities don't do this), or famous residents - as this only seems to take up valuable space? Am I being paranoid? Thoughts....anyone? Globaltraveller 18:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would tend to agree - I can't really see the value of the consulates. Residents is interesting enough though. Funny you should mention a culture section - I started one on my user page, see User: Supergolden/Edinburgh. Its very rough but have a look - if you think its up to being pasted into the article I will do so. My aim was to replace the list sections which are useless at present. ::Supergolden:: 11:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your vote of confidence Global. I put in the Culture section with some tweaks - could use expansion. Tourism section is still a bit sketchy i think, I will try to work on this area. But don't let me stop anyone else from having a go! ::Supergolden:: 14:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Edits and article Length

message: A contributor wanted to add "Embra" as a nickname for Edinburgh to the page's infobox. I reverted this, perhaps unfairly, on the ground that the current names shown appear in print, whereas "Embra" seems to be modern slang (correct me if I'm wrong) and therefore not of similar status. It didn't help that the contributor ditched "Edina" as part of the same edit. I grew up near the Edina Printworks and was/am therefore familiar with Edina Street and Edina Place. I must admit, however, that I've never heard the name (coined, I believe, by Burns in one his more pretentious moments) pass anyone's lips, and it does seem obsolete today, if indeed it ever had any currency. "Auld Reekie", on the other hand, is historical and found in many printed sources, as is "Athens of the North" which still occurs in tourist and promotional literature. The question is, should "Embra" be added to the end of the list along with the bracketed gloss [mod. slang]? Does anyone out there actually say it? It could be that I am as out of touch as the judge who once famously asked, "Who are the Beatles?" Kim Traynor | Talk 01:10, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just remembered Robert Fergusson uses the phrase "Edina's Roses" for the town's sewage smells in his poem "Auld Reekie", so that lets Rabbie off the hook. Kim Traynor | Talk 01:28, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Embra (and Embro) appear in Etymology of Edinburgh and Nicknames of Edinburgh. Also the two terms are discussed in Archives 1 and 2. Judging by a quick Google search, these names don't appear to be in common use.77.99.106.6 (talk) 12:33, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. That's helpful. There's nothing in the archived discussions to convince anyone that this supposed nickname should be added. One contributor refers to it as a phonetic rendering of what one hears when (some of) the natives say the city's name. Kim Traynor | Talk 14:14, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Digging deeper - a search for Embra within http://www.scotslanguage.com/site/search gives 219 hits. The implication is that Embra is the Scots name for Edinburgh, not just a nickname. In this context, Glesga is Scots for Glasgow, Lithga is Scots for Linlithgow etc.77.99.106.6 (talk) 11:20, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I think I'd like to test that out on Scots from Shetland to Galloway before recognising it as a valid name. (For some reason the scotslanguage website is not displaying in my browser.) "Glesga" is certainly familiar, but not "Lithga". I was there recently and heard a couple of locals saying what sounded like "Lithgie". Kim Traynor | Talk 13:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies for the link. Just use the search box on www.scotslanguage.com. I share your scepticism and it appears to me that The Scots Language Centre is promoting Scots pronunciation of names from who knows where, as you suggest it could be anywhere from Shetland to Galloway, as the Scots name for places. Other examples are Fawkirk for Falkirk and Dawkeith for Dalkeith. In all the books I've looked at over the years, Maitland, Arnot etc., I can't recall seing Embra or Embro. They sound like I might pronounce Edinburgh after a few pints in Middleton's.77.99.106.6 (talk) 13:54, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, my scepticism grows by the minute. I worked in Dalkeith for decades and never heard any Scots language speakers there call it "Dawkeith"! Sounds more like the name of a resident. I think "Dolkeith", as opposed to "Dalkeith" is meant. Middleton's? Ah, memories. Must be full right now with all those Hibs supporters drowning their sorrows. Kim Traynor | Talk 14:10, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: For anyone following this exchange, I have reverted another attempt to put "Embra" (and "Edinburrae") on the page alongside "Edinburgh" and "Dùn Èideann". The contribution was sourced from a website which promotes the Scots language and gives a list of phonetic renderings of place names. Some of these are highly dubious, e.g. "Halyruid" (clearly historical - I could just as well add 16th-century spellings like "Edinbro" and "Edinburrow" to the page). The same list gives "Berrick" as the Scots form of "Berwick", thus implying that English people say Ber-wick!). Since this website clearly has an agenda I believe its material is not wholly reliable or credible, I have reverted the page so that it states only the unequivocal Scottish-English and Gaelic forms of the city's name, both historically and in the present. Kim Traynor | Talk 18:07, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Further to above, another contributor has emailed to say, "You asked, Does anyone actually say "Embra"? Answer, a few do but this is street slang in the same way as Glaswegians are referred to as 'Weegies'!" Kim Traynor | Talk 10:59, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does anyone actually say "Embra"? 

message: Substituted at 20:31, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment