Talk:Cumans

message: I removed Béla Kun from the list of people whose surnames are related to the Cumans until someone can offer proof that his last name isn't simply a variation of Cohen.
Bratici
 
Bassarab and Tihomir are NOT CUMANS, they were romanian although they bore names of Cuman origin. Romanian political entities are mentioned since 1247 whilst there is no written or archaeological evidence of a si--Vargatamas (talk) 20:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: To suggest that no Cumans resided in Romania during the 13th century is heavily ahistoric. The Cumans bear a great influence on the Romanian people as also visible in the horse archery of the Calarasi. Ivaylo Iotchev (talk) 22:15, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

text: I have removed this statement: However taking into account that the two of them ruled over territories formerly reigned by the Romanian leaders mentioned in the Diploma of the Joannites from 1247, and that there is no archeological evidence to sustain the continuous presence of a Cuman population, only Hungarian documents mentioning a toll-paying Wallachian population, it is quite obvious that Tihomir and Basarab I were as Romanian as the population they reigned over). This statement is an POV opinion not based on any sound facts. According to mainstream historians there are nothing obvoius about history of Vallachia before 1300 AD. In fact population of present day Vallachia an Moldavia was ethnicaly mixed during Middle Ages: Romanian, Slavonic and Turkic. Presence of hundreds names of Turkic origin in Romania, names of rulers and nobility, as well as extremally strong presence of Slavonic elements in ROmanian language and culture strongly support this thesis. It is quite possibly that ruling class was of Turkic, nomad, origin. Nomads frequently used to subdue more settled population. By the way Tihomir is not Turkic name but Slavonic one. Yeti 20:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Old talk

message: Cumania has a lot of cited material that deals with Cuman as opposed to the territory. Should these articles be merged?--tufkaa 15:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still think an article on the area is warranted (much like Severia). However, much information from this article should be moved to Severians and or as you suggested Kypchaks.--tufkaa 17:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I really think this article should be merged into the Kipchaks one. After all, aren't both terms different denominations for the same people? Rsazevedo (talk) 17:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

text:  "The precise relationship of the Cumans to the Kipchaks is unclear". bogdan (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

text: As I indicated the separation of Cumans and Kipchaks would be artificial.  It sounds like the Pamirian origin theory of Bulgars that is based on Bulgarian ethno-nationalistic insecurities.  I will find you multiple-sources that state that the Cumans and Kipchaks are one and the same people. --Nostradamus1 (talk) 04:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge?

message: I would merge Kypchak to Cuman, since Kypchak is a modern term based on the self determination of the today assumed descendants (also Turkmens and Kazaks, who does not really have to do with Cumans apart from far relation), and not 100% the same. Lke British is today the Anglo-Saxon population, but 1500 years ago the non-Anglo-Saxon Celtic population (Arthur).
It makes sense to merge Russian and Balkan history to one article.
To the discussion above the topic is far not closed. Hungarian historians know no Wallachians before 12th century in later Wallachia. But the above writer is right, Cumans did not live in Wallachia, because the term is refers to the Today Romanian former Vlach/Wallachs.
Tihomir sounds unfortunately Slavic, Temur, Demir etc in Turk comes from Persian by the way.
But definitely the prices might be Cumans according to non-Romanian historians... Please, leave the discussion open to the findings of the next 50 years as compromise.--Vargatamas 20:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cumania

message: The alternate name "Polvtsian" has been taken out of the introduction but the link for the term still directs here. Could people who know more about the subject decide whether this should be the case or whether the term is better directed here or to Palóc. If the decision is that it should link here, I think we need the term to reappear in the heading or it will be confusing.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Polovtsian]] 

message: Please leave the question open until the origin of Kumani / Cumani is cleared. The place where this Wikipedia article shows their alkukoti = urheimat of Poljevoi was also inhabited by Obi (Great River) Ugrians,
Hanti, Mansi and Hungarians. Of these three, Hungarians are placed in several Wikipedia articles to have lived also in south eastern slopes of Urali and the Hanti and Mansi north of them, mainly on the area following Obi and Irtish Rivers. Where they still lives today (2008). If Polovoi -> Polovetsi -> Polovtsi / Polovtsy people would have had only Türkic roots they would have include in their name reminiscences of Seber Ak (Sibir White) form in way or other,  which would have connected them to Tatars. In fact, valkia / valkea / valgie is also Finno Ugrian name for white not susi (wolf). Then there is connection between names Kipchak and Sakaliba, the question far from solved. They can be also said to be Kuumanni (Moonman) what in turn could describe their skins light colour like ghost of moon. Cheers.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.115.5 (talk) 05:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Open Question

message: According to my relative (and reknowned Anthropoligist) Richley H. Crapo, the Cumani were descendants of the Sarmatians of Iran. Just a thought. Richley is/was (I don't know if he's still kicking) an expert at Geneaology, and could trace anyone's ancestry based on disambiguations of their last names and two or three generations before. For instance, our last name is Crapo. He was able to deduce that Crapo is not an actual name, but a disambiguation of the french word Crapaud which means "Frog" or "Toad". Go figure, freakin' Ellis Island cutoms agents....who knows what the hell my actual last name is.
Shawn Crapo (talk) 22:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin

message: If they have links to Sarmataie (Sarmaatti) people, then why Finno Ugrian languages have Sarmaatti and Kumaani presenting totally two different heimos (tribes)? There is exactly clear describtion in old European sources where the Kumaanis lived. It took ten days ride (daily 40 km with a good horse), or was it by kameli from Petsenakki to Kumaani. They appear c.1000 AD in Russian history living south of Murdasi (Mordvins) between Tanais (Don) and Itil / Rava (Volga), the southern neighbours of Murdasi Burtta tribe. In the area is only these remnants in topography of Kumaani, the river names; Rúdna, Sivin and Sherboda. If one can link these names to any Persian dialect then the connection is possible, otherwise not. Secondly, why the Kumaanis had, as Onogurs (Hungarians) with them Tibetan shepard dogs? There are several links by Hungarian and Finnish professors to prove in linguistic researches; the Kumaanis spoke one of the Obi Ugrian language which was close to Hungarian, but not Hungarian. That close they understood each other without any transliteration of interprayers. Thirdly, they brought with them also kamelis (Camelus  bactrianus) from Itil area to Erdely.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.175.146 (talk) 03:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolute rubbish, along the lines of Hungarian "scholars" who claim that Magyar and Sumerian have common roots. Nonsense.50.111.1.232 (talk) 01:54, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Kumaani Origin

message: The Kumans and Kipchaks are not the same nation, not even ethnically.Read Cumans and Tatars on google books(the preview is enough to see that according to historians they are 2 different peoples). They joined pollitically only. The Kumans are said to have come east of the Huang He river.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.226 (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The Kumans and Kipchaks are not the same nation

message: Why do you people continue to remove the ethnicity section?. There are some valid points that should, under no circmstances, go unnoticed. These points clarly show the massive problem with the Turkic theory, which suggests that they were most probably not Turkic - you cant just say they were Turkic just because you want them to be and just because you conveniently avoid the problem of the theory, to make research easier and quicker (as is clearly happening with research of the Kumans). That is truly an amateur, close minded move which goes against the spirit of science and history. These points cant be dismissed until they are properly understood. The removal of this section shows ignorance.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.48.234 (talk) 22:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity 

message: There is no need to add "linguistically" to the word Turkic because the Turkic peoples article it links to clearly defines Turkic as an ethno-linguistic group. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 15:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not true - than why are there two major and different articles - one on Turkic people and the other on Turkic languages?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart Nomad (talk • contribs) 05:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Because they are two separate topics?  Good grief. 50.111.14.143 (talk) 01:16, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linguistically Turkic 

message: I found many pictures of Cuman warriors (including a woman warrior) which i would like to upload, and I want to ask - is it fine if I upload an image I found in a forum about ancient warriors? - it doesnt say who drew them or where they come from, the people just posted them on the forum (drawings, but very good drawings) - it would be good for the article, to give an indication on how they looked like and what their clothes and armor were like etc. So I am just wondering if it is fine to upload a picture which comes from a forum site about ancient and medievel warriors?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 (talk) 07:42, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your interest in this subject. As a new editor you have a personal discussion page here User talk:146.232.75.208 where other editors can communicate with you. Please review it and consider becoming a registered user by choosing a user name. The contributions you make, like this one Cuman people#Famous or notable Cumans, or people of Cuman descent, in history need to have a source, otherwise they will be deleted even if they are true, see Wikipedia:Verifiability. If you want to use images, please provide a link and I'll be happy to review them because they are probably under copyright and can't be used without permission. I am very interested in finding images we can use and I'll be happy to work with you. USchick (talk) 16:08, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

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thread_title: File:Crusades 1905.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I've just cut out of the etymology section some prize unsourced WP:OR nonsense. How on earth has this edit managed to survive for over a month? DeCausa (talk) 21:17, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/zgothic/miniatur/1301-350/08h_1300.html
about text : This collection of legends were made on the occasion of the Italian journey of Charles Robert of Anjou and the child Prince Andrew. Fragments of this collection can be found in the Vatican, in the Morgan Library, New York and in the Hermitage, St. Petersburg. The collection contains stories from the life of saints important for the House of Anjou. It was intended for children with brief text for the picture. The painters of the legendarium came from Bologna and they painted in the style of the Italian trecento.
The scenes represented on this page: Saint Ladislas and the Devil, Battle of Saint Ladislas with the Cumanians, Saint Ladislas is wounded, Conquering the Cumanian.
''
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1301-350/08h_1300.jpg  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.168.214 (talk) 14:00, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  new pictures  

message: Vallani is not right, Vallani (Wallani) was Skythes which settled in the Wallachia (ohg. "Vallahai", germ. "Wallachai"), the germans call this people Wallani.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.252.65.47 (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vallani/Valwe by Germans 

message: Can't agree of the statement that Shishmans and Asens dynasties were from the Cuman origin. There are speculations about the Asens and we dont know if they were bulgarians,vlachs /which in 13th century was actually Bulgarian teritories/ or cuman. Such statement about Asens and Shishmans are unclean and uncertain.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 15:02, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Wiki uses Reliable Sources, not original research/personal opinions.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.1.232 (talk) 02:03, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unagreed 

message: The History section includes one telling of the settlement on the Hungarian plain, then another more detailed version follows. The two parts need to be blended together.  I'm inserting sub-sections into the long History section, and for now I'm setting the second version into its own sub-section. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 23:14, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've blended the redundant passages together. I also moved parts of the Culture section into the History section and did a bit of rearranging within Culture. There were a number of other redundant passages that I removed. It's still a bit rough, but more organized and less repetitive now. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 04:01, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Great job, LP. I've compared the two versions and this is definitely under way to being better organised and intelligible. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redundant passages 

message: The section is confusing. Polans (Polanie) were a West-Slavic tribe. The name probably derives from the Polish word pole (planus-plain): field. Is there any relation between the Polans and the Polovtsians? Etymologically is there any relation between "plav" (blue) and polovtsian?Jestmoon(talk) 14:08, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: I've detected at least one source (Animal and Shaman: Ancient Religions of Central Asia - Julian Baldick pg 53 + which is barely even an attempt to paraphrase the original text in this article. All in all, the new content is highly florid and reads as though it were an overly-detailed study.
I've noted that this article has been developed quickly, and in great detail over the last month or so. I can only hope that I am mistaken as to its dubious development. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:57, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey? For someone who writes such poetic content, your communication skills are sadly lacking. I'm not merely concerned with the possibility of infringement on copyright. The style of writing is too colourful for encyclopaedic content per WP:NPOV. No, we don't want articles to be so dry as to bore readers: neither is it appropriate to adopt a "Ripping Yarns" tone. Whilst your hard work is appreciated, do you think you could modify the descriptors a tad? It's fine to use the occasional descriptive quote, but an historical novel is both too lengthy and a little heroic for the project. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:30, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

text: I was being flippant. Unfortunately, as we all only communicate via proscribed missives, the tone usually doesn't translate well. No offence taken. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:17, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential copyright violations 

message: This isn't clear, until the first instance of "cumanian" in ==History==.  The article should be cleaned up.174.3.125.23 (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cuman=Cumanian? 

message: This part of the article is as wrong as it gets. Hungarian incursions in Transylvania were non-existent, since it was an integer part of the Hungarian Kingdom, even when Romanians like to believe others. And it is way funnier, that the article contradicts itself, since the Cumans founding the later Romanian duchies have been vassals of the Hungarian kings, so it is a paradox circle-reference. On the other hand, Cumans had campaigns against Hungary before becoming vassals.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orszag89 (talk • contribs) 07:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you check the sources? This is taken from sources, not dreamed up. Smart Nomad (talk) 20:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

text: ALL Hungarian (Magyar) actions in Europe were originally "incursians," as they were an Asian steppe people that invaded the area under Arpad at the end of the 10th century A.D. - so their first ventures into Transylvania were by definition "incursions."50.111.46.18 (talk) 12:14, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hungarian Incursions in Transylvania 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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replies: text: No working archived captures. Appears to be an editor's own upload site, therefore PDF is unavailable for WP:V. Thanks, Cyberbot II. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:32, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Thank you, Geekdiva for calling attention to the problems with the lead.  I recently did a copy-editing run through the article and intended to work on the lead last, but I forgot to come back to it.  There are a few areas of redundancy and lack of coherent flow, which I will work on.  There are also a couple of issues with lists that may need attention:
*The opening sentence lists the name in 12 languages with over 20 variations. Can some or all of that be moved to the Name section?  At present, it is difficult to scan down and find where the sentence continues.
*The long list of kingdoms and principalities is a problem, repeated over different paragraphs.  Some of that can be blended together, but as the lead is a summary, perhaps some entities could be summed up by region.
There may also be aspects covered in the body that should be added to the lead. I'll work on a draft, but ideas regarding the languages list would be appreciated. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 00:34, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro issues 

message: "The Cumans were reported to have had blond hair, fair skin and blue eyes (which set them apart from other groups and later puzzled historians),"
Yes indeed puzzling, because as Cambridge History of early Inner Asia notes "the Polovtsy (from Slavic polovyi "yellow, pale, pale-yellow," and probably a translation of Turkic Quman) in Rus' sources and taken from there into Western Slavic (Plauciy Plawci) and Hungarian (Paloc). German sources record: Falones, Phalagiy Valvi etc., again, interpretations of the Turkic ethnonym." 
Not only that, not sure how they are blond hair and blue eyes when they migrated from Western Liao to the Southern Russian Steppe in early 11th century. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 05:13, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, the etymology doesn't make sense given that in Slavic tradition they are depicted as distinctly Asiatic in appearance. There's an undeniable conflict in what the sources have to say about where they harked from, and being characterised as a Turkic people. It may be worth going through the sourcing for this section carefully to ensure that there's no WP:OR/WP:SYNTH going on. My knowledge of the morphology of 'pole' in Slavic linguistics is that it is a far more general term for an open grassland/fields/steppe, and that the words for straw (etc.) are derivatives of that meaning. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:54, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology might be wrong 

message: It hurts the lead's readability when the name is given in about twenty different languages right at the beginning. Put the names in a note. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 19:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about putting the names in different languages in a note? 

message: "Ulak" may refer to Volga Bulgars (Abu al-Ghazi Bahadur called them like this). Fakirbakir (talk) 12:22, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Spinei undoubtedly defines them as being Romanians, rejecting other hypotheses. Do you have any reliable sources that might indicate that there is any controversy over his scholarship? The only other context I've encountered the use of 'ulaks' in is as term for couriers in the Ottoman Empire at a far later date. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spinei and his remark ("Ulak" people) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Okay, so this page is in the Extinct Ethnic Groups category, but this page features a picture of a Cuman from 2009, and there are more pictures like that on the Wikimedia Commons from an event called the "First World Meeting of Cumanians", an event which apparently doesn't have a page on Wikipedia, English or otherwise.
So, are they extinct or not? And if they are extinct, what happened? Who were they absorbed into? 99.225.234.31 (talk) 17:55, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: "Cuman" as a tribal confederacy is no more. The survivors of the Mongol invasions that settled in Hungary were mostly killed in the wars with the Ottomans, and their non-military brethren absorbed into the peoples of the Carpathian basin some 400 years ago. In the great melee of central Asia during the various post-Ogodei khanates, those that had not fled from the Mongols were absorbed into the Turkic peoples of the Golden Horde and the Chagatai khanates. The Cumanian dialect of the Turkic language group is extinct, and finding anyone with a purely Cuman bloodline in the 21st century would be extremely rare. The wouldn't be identified as "Cuman" now, anyway.50.111.46.18 (talk) 12:31, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extinct? 

message: Can anyone check in which Iranic language where kip- means "red, blonde"? Considering that English "blonde" translates to Farsi bur (from PIE root *bʰerH- "brown"; Iranic cognates: Ossetian bur “yellow”, Northern Kurdish bor "grey").Erminwin (talk) 01:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kip 

message: This information has been removed, with the following edit summary: " Reverted addition of statements about human origins with self-published, low quality, not reviewed source". I think it is relevant and should be included. 
 Thoughts? -- Tobby72 (talk) 10:43, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:52, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Kuns article: I suggest to merge the Kuns article to the main Cuman one, that article was recently copy-pasted with many contents from here and there are strange modifications like "Hungarian Tatars", a total false term. OrionNimrod (talk) 10:29, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging Kuns article to this Cuman article