Talk:Early Norwegian black metal scene

message: I've added information on the Black Metal Circle from two named references. I've tried to keep it NPOV by not listing media claims of satanism or other theories for why the murders and arsons were committed. anon.
There was no such thing as the Black Metal Inncer Circle, however. It never existed outside of Euronymou's head. All kinds of black metallers have been interviewed denying having any kind of satanist affiliations, and Vikernes has in fact consistently denied that the Black Metal circle ever existed. Wiht your permission, I will try and do some re-writing on this whilst still considering your original article. I will try and add a sectyion about the debate of whether or not it existed. --Nargos 04:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not state something is a well-known fact if in fact it's not. Christian Vikernes was acquited for burning Fantoft stafe church due to lack of evidence. He was however found guilty of four arsons namely Skjold, Åsane, Storetveit churches and Holmenkollen chapel.Egishnugal 22:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Please see WP:NPOV and WP:BOLD. Ley Shade 12:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: All these rumors really don't help anything, it would be handy if somebody could read norwegian and simply translate the original court rulings which are in public domain..Egishnugal 22:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Black Metal Circle

message: Apparently, this is a controversial subject. Recently, the page discussing Dead was edited, and the references to the Black Metal Inner Circle removed. See the talk page of Dead. We seem to have a situation, where people go around adding mentions of the Inner Circle in the articles that discuss prominent Norwegian black metal figures - and other people remove these references.
This seems to result from the fact that some regard the existence of an Inner Circle as a fact, while others see the whole Inner Circle as a baseless rumor. I think that we should try to reach a consensus in this article and then, rely on it to judge if and how the Inner Circle should be mentioned in other articles.
At the moment, this article (Black Metal Inner Circle) seems to be lacking in references. Two books are mentioned, but unfortunately, simply under references without any additional details. I'd like to see more detailed references (ie. page 362 of the book blah blah) when it comes to specific claims like "Notable members of the inner circle included Mayhem vocalist Per Yngve Ohlin (Dead), Varg Vikernes of Burzum, as well as Bård Faust Eithun and Samoth from Emperor.". Without very detailed refencing, it becomes unclear which parts of the article are actually supported by facts - and which parts have been added later by someone who "heard it from somewhere". Tritec 20:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never heard of a formal black metal inner circle. It's not in Satan rir Media, Lords of Chaos (book) or on Vikernes' homepage. If this is taken from 'Lucifer Rising', it need to be clarified which statements are taken from that book. Zara1709 16:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources and citing 

message: The reason why I thought that the move of this article could be controversial is that if effectifly shifted the burden of proof towards those who are of the opinion that there was a Black Metal Inner Circle. This has to be debated in the article, but we need some references. So if you have a (comparitivly) reliable source that most of the members sought to expel and supplant Christianity with alternative ideologies, please add it back in. I am sorry for reverting that late, but I had some things to do in RL. Zara1709 10:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please, some citations

message: I thought that the merge from Helvete should be unvontroversial. If that article would ever get expanded, I would overlap completly with this article. Zara1709 11:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge from Helvete

message: First off, the so-called "Black Metal Inner Circle" did not ever exist.  It was purely a media invention, which pretty much everyone in the bm scene there has said.  Second, and most importantly: Lords of Chaos does not constitute a reliable source.  It has inaccuracies all throughout (take a look at the Lords of Chaos page) and it is a piece of propaganda for white supremacy.  Almost everyone in the bm scene has denided this book.  Moynihan blatantly lies about crap and makes up quotes from different musicians. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 18:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Woah. If you are going to say Moynihan makes up quotes, you had better have a bloody good source. Otherwise that is libellous. If 'almost everyone' in the scene has, um, denided this book, point out where. As almost a side note, having read the book several times, which bits were you suggesting were white supremacist propaganda? A page number and quote'd be handy. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want: There was another Norwegian right-wing activist with the name Tom Kimmo Eiternets who got into prison for robbery and assault. (He and Vikernes were both defended by the same lawyer :no:John Christian Elden.) About him you can read in Lords of Chaos (1998), p. 318: "This Vision of the enemy might predispose him to take his actions one step further from harassing immigrants to Baader Meinhof Style urban guerilla warfare directed at leading power figures." AT LEAST you'd have to say that such a statement displays a lack of distance. Also: There is NO EVIDENCE that somewhere in the Norwegian Black Metal or Right Wing scene some people have the organisational structure or even the intention to pull of a "Baader Meinhof Style urban guerilla warfare". Moynihan is pushing this interpretation into the topic. There are some more quotes like this, you have to read the last three chapters carefully. Although it is  altogether possible that the various editions differ here.  Zara1709 (talk) 05:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like we have the same edition, but I'm still not prepared to make the leap from interviewing or reporting on people with racist or far right viewpoints, to saying Moynihan supports these people. My knowledge of the wider far right political situation in Norway is non-existent, so I couldn't comment on the organisational abilities of far right groups. I simply question extreme statements like "Lords of Chaos is white supremacist propaganda". The quote above for instance... in what way does it suggest Moynihan supports such activities? From the context it does not. As for pushing his interpretation onto things, well, yes, it is journalism not a Wikipedia article with NPOV etc, but to call it propaganda you'd have to find some quotes where Moynihan explicitly supports a white supremacist stance. I don't recall any. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  BM Inner Circle and ''Lords of Chaos'' 

message: I appreciate the attempts to cleanup this article, but I wished that [[User:Superfopp] was little less reckless. Blockquotes probably look better then inline quote if you only have a few quotes, but there was a reason I had not only added the quote, but also: "Although this is somehow contrary to the image of the black metal scene that Lords of Chaos tries to convey, Bård Faust sticks to his version when Moynihan digs deeper after any "organization"." After the question "What was the Black Circle?", there follow three questions: "Was the idea that it was organized created by the newspaper articles?", "The shop was just a central place...", "How did so much happen without any organization?", and, is I had summarized it: Bård Faust sticks to his version. So, to refer to the previous discussion with User:Blackmetalbaz, the interviews in Lords of Chaos are authentic. it is just that Moynihan has sometimes a tendentious way of asking questions. The ideological content of that book lies 1) in the selection of the cases documented (why does he bring in Lords of Chaos (self-styled teen militia), e.g. ?) and 2) in what Moynihan writes himself, outside the interviews that are printed in the book. I am quite sure that Lords of Chaos claims the existence of the Black Metal Circle, too, but I would have to spent some time searching for a good quote. I don't know if I'll do that any time soon, because I am rather frustrated about some of the recent edits here and at Varg Vikernes. I mean, there is nothing to discuss about Vikernes beliefs: "Varg Vikernes has described his beliefs as Odalism; judging from various text on www.burzum.org it is some form of racist and eugenic Neopaganism." was better than the previous versions; First someone had added that Vikernes beliefs were a mixture of Neopaganism and Nazism, then someone replaced "Nazism" with "Odalism". If you read the texts on burzum.org, you will see that "[racist]] and eugenic Neopaganism" is the accurate description of the content there, although one could get a better quote from there than the one I used. Probably we don't need to include this in this article, because it is not clear whether Vikernes held those believes add the time the arsons were committed, but if we include something about his views, we'd have to say that he is a racist. I know that people who usually don't read books like The Occult Roots of Nazism might find it rather shocking to see what kind of extremists are out there, but if the persons who hold these views are notable, then their views are also notable. Zara1709 (talk) 12:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent changes

message: This article states in the "Helvete" section that Dead could found in Helvete which was opened in May-June 1991. It then states in the "Suicide of Per Yngve Ohlin" section that Dead committed suicide in April 1991, before the opening of the shop.. Clearly he could not be dead (literally) and hanging out in the record shop, except maybe in spirit.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yesmandroc (talk • contribs) 01:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead in Helvete 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Early Norwegian black metal scene's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "sam":
From Heavy metal subgenres: 
From Black metal: Dunn, Sam (2005). Metal: A Headbanger's Journey.
From Thrash metal: Dunn, Sam (2005). Metal: A Headbanger's Journey
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 00:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've sorted it out. ~Asarlaí 00:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Early Norwegian black metal scene]] 

message: :Mayhem demysteriisdomsathanas.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a non-free use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
 This also applies to :File:DawnOfTheBlackHearts.jpg.-Andrew c [talk] 12:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Mayhem demysteriisdomsathanas.jpg

message: Link remove because it's dead
* True Norwegian Black Metal - webzine  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.215.240 (talk) 08:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: I removed Darkthrone’s Soulside Journey album from the list of music releases ... because it is a death metal album, not black metal. Its Wikipeida entry also notes this.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.132.124.3 (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed an album, ''Soulside Journey'' 

message: And left a notice on the talk page here. – Ajltalk 06:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted another removal by {{user|173.58.149.178}} 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Early Norwegian black metal scene's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "soundsofdeath":
From Euronymous: Sounds of Death magazine (1998): Hellhammer interview
From De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas: Dan Zimmer: Interview with Hellhammer taken from Sounds Of Death Magazine.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 08:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Early Norwegian black metal scene]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified