Talk:Norman Stronge

message: To the reader who does not know what occured this word is meaningless.  The word murder is not PoV, it implies the deliberate killing of another, exactly what happened here.  I think this page is being used by others to promote certain PoV's which, perhaps, believe in playing-down this murder.--Couter-revolutionary 12:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary, like someone else said about your articles - "long on celebration and short on effect" - the article is totally one sided.--Vintagekits 12:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it hard to see how the article is one sided when certain users want phrases used such as describing a murder as a death or the event as "targeting".  Further and worst of all, it seemed to imply, until I clarified it, that Sir Norman had killed numerous Roman Catholics, and it was for this he was murdered.--Couter-revolutionary 13:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

text: We all know the REAL reason taken out - however his funding and that motive is not verifiable in any book that I have read.--Vintagekits 14:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Few people have ever offended me more than you have just done; assuming you are implying what I think you are.  --Couter-revolutionary 15:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Use of "targeted"

message: It is significant, it shows the mainstream republican reaction to his murder.  To remove it clearly shows a PoV and if you continue to do this I shall have you written up, as it were.  The quotation marks I added were purely for stylistic purposes.--Couter-revolutionary 22:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, the quote is OTT and adds nothing to the article.--Vintagekits 22:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you disagree with my presentation of it or with its actual being there?  You are clearly boiling over with PoV, this quote illustrates that Sir Norman was highly respected by both communities. It stays.--Couter-revolutionary 23:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Currie speaks for a community. Again it adds nothing to the article.--Vintagekits 23:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You cannot remove information that is referenced.  I have provided a reference which you deleted.  The only explanation I can arise at is blatant PoV.--Couter-revolutionary 23:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember WP:BB, What does it add to the article.--Vintagekits 23:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have outlined above what it adds.--Couter-revolutionary 23:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quote

message: This creates an unfortunate ambiguity that he was murdered only briefly, as opposed to permanently:
:He is presumed to have been succeeded to the Baronetcy by his son James, who was murdered alongside him. [1], albeit only briefly.
I think it should be:
:He is presumed to have been succeeded to the Baronetcy, albeit only briefly, by his son James, who was murdered alongside him.
Tyrenius 00:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rephrase

message: OK, very very minor edit war at the very most. Edit + revert v 2 reverts. I recommend WP:BRD, i.e. an edit, a revert, then discussion. However, everyone is at fault for not opening a discussion on this page, which is what it's for. Don't leave such things just to edit summaries. I have looked at the ref and it appears that neither "murdered" nor "targetted" are mentioned. The simplest thing is to let the IRA speak for themselves without interpretation and let the reader make up his/her own mind as to what they wish to read into it.
Thus instead of:
:The IRA claimed Stronge was murdered in reprisal for sectarian killings of Catholics (with which he had no connection) and because he was a leading Orangeman"
it would read:
:The IRA stated, "Sir Norman Stronge and his son were shot and their home burned because sectarian assassinations were claiming the lives of Catholics."
I may have missed something here, but this seems the obvious solution. Please discuss below.
Tyrenius 21:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Murdered or targetted

message: I think the info in the opening paragraph about Stronge's political career should be appreviated and most of this should be moved in to a new section in the body of the article - any ojections to this from anyone? I can only see wp:mos type objections being credible here Weggie 11:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully the information should be easier to read - felt there was too much in the intro that should have been detailed in the main body of the article Weggie 12:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New section

message: This article seemed to imply, incorrectly, that Sir Norman may have had a role in certain killings.  It is obvious to those involved (yes not necessarily to all and sundry) that Sir Norman was not mixed up in anything like that.  This is what I am attempting to stress, yet user:Vintagekits wishes me to provided a source for this.  Suggestions?--Couter-revolutionary 23:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All I am asking is that if you want to claim something in an article - just back the claim up with proof.--Vintagekits 00:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if I can find any.  All I am trying to do is protect the reputation of a good man, now gone, in the face of certain implicit allegations.--Couter-revolutionary 00:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is very honourable. However, this is wiki, if you want to make a claim you need proof.--Vintagekits 00:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's so outlandish to suggest he was involved that there would be no source suggesting he wasn't.--Couter-revolutionary 00:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If a claim is to be included in an article, the burden of proof is on those who want it in to establish it, not on those who want it out to find a source refuting them. Sam Blacketer 00:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, appears I broke the first rule of commentary and didn't read the questioned material from the article. It merely states that "P. O'Neill" from the IRA press department had claimed the killing of Sir Norman Stronge as a reprisal for killings by loyalist paramilitaries. This was indeed the statement made at the time. I can't find, though, that they claimed a direct connection, merely that Sir Norman Stronge was a symbol of unionism and therefore a legitimate target. Does anyone have the actual statement? Sam Blacketer 00:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deaths with which he had no connection

message: This term has been allowed only in the IRA quote to represent accurately their statement on this event. It should not be used elsewhere in the text, unless there is a verifiable reliable source that uses this term, and we've already debated elsewhere what constitutes such a source. Tyrenius 00:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable sources can also state that those in the IRA are terrorists. Terrorist, murder and assassination are all purely POV.--Vintagekits 00:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But if it's the POV of a verifiable reliable source then it is what we use. That is the whole basis of WP:VERIFY, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR which are non-negotiable policies. If you have other words to use, then find acceptable sources for them. Wikipedia is not about truth. It's about statements that can be verified according to its policies of what counts as verification. Tyrenius 05:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: YOu can also find the term "terrorist crime" from WP:RS should that be used? I also can find the term County Derry from from WP:RS should that be used?--Vintagekits 10:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. - Kittybrewster 10:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, start changing Londonderry to Derry and member (volunteer) to terrorists and we'll see what happens!?--Vintagekits 11:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The former is called Londonderry so that would be daft As for the latter, my life is too short. You do it by all means. Just make sure you have a WP:RS.  - Kittybrewster 11:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can find it quoted as County Derry from loads of WP:RS, would you support its change so long as it comes from a WP:RS??--Vintagekits 11:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I wouldn't. It sounds like an abbreviation of the proper name. Like plane for aeroplane or Herts for Hertfordshire. I don't like it. - Kittybrewster 11:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it was its original name [removed inflammatory provocative comment] and its name outside of Britain.--Vintagekits 11:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually it wasn't, there has never been a County Derry in the history of Ireland, prior to it being County Londonderry it was County Coleraine, don't know what original name you're talking about. Just because some sources call it County Derry doesn't make it it's name. Ben W Bell talk 16:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I am not violating WP:POINT, I am hghlight of instances in editing articles relating to Irish politics were details in details from WP:RS are neutralised in order to stop edit wars and keep the language more neutral. And were do you get off threatening me with a block for expressing my "personal opinions which are irrelevant to the article" - I was NOT EXPRESSING MY PERSONAL OPINION I was repeating what was written in a republican publication and even if it was my personal opinion why should it be whitewashed - there are a lot of editorss giving their personal opinions in this discussion why is nothing said to them. I told you I would get the publication but you allowed my comment to be deleted - I will get the publication and then I will put it in the article. To make out that members of the IRA are murderers is as you say "deliberately inflammatory" - I was not trying to have the information whitewash just to use less loaded and more neutral terms.--Vintagekits 17:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Additonally, CAIN is probably one of the more neutral sources of information on NI and they state they were killed--Vintagekits 22:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine an American magazine, as I pointed out above, is more neutral. It says a lot about CAIN when he doesn't use Sir Norman's title.--Counter-revolutionary 14:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assassination

message: No question he was PC (NI), which is mentioned in the main text. But is it correctly shown in line 1 as Rt Hon or PC (NI) ? - Kittybrewster 21:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that generally, for commoners, Rt. Hon. is used as opposed to PC, however, Wiki. doesn't allow this.  I have sources for PC being used after his name also. --Couter-revolutionary 21:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't allow it by what rule? - Kittybrewster 21:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28biographies%29#Honorific_prefixes
--Couter-revolutionary 21:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Can't remember where it is, but it was forced on us a while back. Proteus (Talk) 21:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Surely when I provide a Reliable Source the post-nominal PC can be used?--Couter-revolutionary 21:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should argue for Rt Hon failing which PC. - Kittybrewster 21:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A jolly good idea!--Couter-revolutionary 21:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, where do I sign up? Sam Blacketer 22:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28biographies%29#Honorific_prefixes_No.2 - Kittybrewster 22:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: PC

message: Can this be removed or explained? - Kittybrewster 00:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there's no explanation within 24 hours (to allow for all time zones), I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be removed. It's not a guessing game to work out what the specific complaint is. Tyrenius 01:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be a good idea also to leave a note on the talk page of the user who posted it, giving them the chance to explain. Tyrenius 02:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stating that this attack was murder is POV.--Vintagekits 19:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are so very wrong it is almost funny, if it weren't so serious an error.  If the blood-thirsty murderers were caught, and charged, what would they be charged with? An attack in which they accidentally fired a machine gun at an elderly man and his son because their finger slipped?  I don't think so, they'd be charged with murder.  Fact.  Thus, in a legal sense, as well as in so many other ways, this "attack" was a MURDER. --Couter-revolutionary 19:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The term murder is sourced. So is there any other reasoning behind the NPOV tag? - Kittybrewster 20:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it might be sourced but it is POV, there are also sources to say he was killed, which is NPOV. If there are also sources to say he was "wacked". "taken out" or "had a cap popped in his ass" should those be used!?!?--Vintagekits 21:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not usually because it's not encyclopedic language, but maybe sometimes in quotes, if relevant. Tyrenius 00:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: We use the prime sources and do not adjust them to conform to the positions adopted by individual editors. Hypothetical questions are unhelpful. wacked is spelled wicked or whacked. - Kittybrewster 22:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:TPG. We don't bother with spelling and grammar mistakes on talk pages. Tyrenius 00:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeking clarification as to meaning. - Kittybrewster 00:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: If your arguement comes down to spellin mistiokes then yu are ob shakey groouind.--Vintagekits 22:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

text: like I said, there are sources for both killed and murdered, however, murder is POV in this instance, provocative and a loaded term. Of all the sources listed CAIN is the most neutral and that says he was "killed" - also its funny how Irish people get "killed" by British but British people get "murdered" by Irish people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vintagekits (talk • contribs).
*How is CAIN the most neutral? Is it most neutral because it supports what you want to say?--Couter-revolutionary 13:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I think any who know anything about Northern Ireland would know that CAIN is the most neitral source cited.--Vintagekits 13:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, it may be POV, but if it is a POV advanced by major sources, which it is, then it is incumbent per WP:NPOV for us to represent that POV, which can be attributed to them by all means, but not just ignored. That would be a violation of policy. Tyrenius 00:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV tag

message: The sources clearly say the warrant was for a charge of murder. We don't use euphemisms. Follow the source accurately please. Also the source doesn't say the charges were dropped; it says Shannon was acquited. Fidelity to the source is essential in articles. Tyrenius 00:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sectarian RUC stated at his extradition hearing that a "book of evidence" had been prepared and that Shannon would be put on trial immediately. Over a year after his extradition no evidence was ever entered. Shannon was released without ever going to trial and to this date no evidence has ever been forwarded.--Vintagekits 00:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ref(s) please. Tyrenius 01:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is, acceptable refs of course. Tyrenius 01:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the way things are going nothing except the Burning Bush or a Britsh Daily seems to be acceptable anymore. Have a look at Magill October 1985 for evidence of the mighty "British justice system".--Vintagekits 01:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Evening Echo | Evening Herald | Foinse | Herald AM | Ireland on Sunday | Irish Examiner | Irish Independent  | Lá | Limerick Leader | Metro | Sunday Independent | Sunday Tribune | Sunday World | The Belfast Telegraph | The Irish News | The Irish Times | The News Letter | The Sunday Business Post
You (and no one else either from what I can see) never cite the Irish press, which I find surprising. Why not? Do they say the same as the British press and the Burning Bush perchance?
Tyrenius 03:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shannon

message: There were too many headings and small sections which prevented any flow. I have created bigger sections and less headings. 
I have considered the use of the words "killing" and "murder" attempting only to apply wikipedia policies of WP:ATT and WP:NPOV and their derivative guidelines, including Wikipedia: words to avoid: 
:The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist
The word "murder" falls into this category. As major sources use the term, it must be included. However, it must also be attributed to them. A straightforward solution is to describe the events in neutral terms, i.e. use the word "killing", which is after all what happened. I think in the circumstances of the death, the reader can safely be left to draw whatever conclusions they choose. I have put the labelling of the death as murder into a Reactions section, as it was a reaction to the event after it. It can then be compared with other reactions, and again the reader can make their own judgement. It is fundamental to wikipedia to present information in a neutral and impersonal manner, even though this may go against an editor's natural instincts, though of course these can be opposite in different editors.
All of this does create a disproportionately large section on the death, and I think the answer to this is to expand the previous section on his life and career. The marriage date is missing at the moment. 
I have deleted the UDA lines. This is original research. There is no source that connects this to Sir Norman Stronge, only an editor's idea that it is connected.
Some of the details may need to be clarified, revised or more closely referenced, but please do not insert statements which may be contentious which are not supported by appropriate references.
Note also per WP:LEAD that the lead section is not an introduction. It is a summary of the article for those that want a quick overview without necessarily reading the whole text. I have augmented it with this in mind. Ideally the lead section should not be referenced, as it is only an abbreviated version of the main text, where the references should be.
If there are any disputes over the revision, please open talk below, giving each subject its own heading for clarity. Talk related to the article is best stated on this page, not on user talk pages, in order that all editors may have a chance to participate.
Tyrenius 03:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done, I quickly read through it and it seems fine to me, if the same could now be applied to Sir_James_Stronge%2C_9th_Baronet it would be good.--padraig3uk 03:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it! Tyrenius 04:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-order and re-write rationale

message: In the infobox it says 'Speaker of the Northern Ireland Parliament' at the time of his death this didn't exist either the position or parliament, so the infobox is misleading as it gives one the impression that it is still currently in existance.  Shouldn't this be changed to 'Former Speaker of the Former Northern Ireland Parliament.--padraig3uk 10:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true that the PNI is no longer in existence but it is arguably his most notable political position before his retirement and murder by Sein Fein/IRA.Weggie 10:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite true. He did not, after all, hold the position of "Former Speaker"!--Counter-revolutionary 12:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I accept that he once held the position, nor am I saying it shouldn't be in the infobox, but it should be clearer that the position and Parliament no longer exists, from looking at the article at first glance it gives the impression that it currently exists.--padraig3uk 19:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It should state the term when he occupied the office - as Winston Churchill. - Kittybrewster 19:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed that. - Kittybrewster 19:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is better, thanks.--padraig3uk 19:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Wouldn't the date be 1946-1969, if he held the position for 23yrs.--padraig3uk 19:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: InfoBox

message: These appear to have been given by editors who have worked on the article. They are meant to be given by editors who have not! I've reverted to original state. Tyrenius 04:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: History and Biography ratings

message: Moved from a talk page and distilled.
:Regarding a photograph of Sir Norman Stronge, I will be looking into the fair use of this image - where was it obtained from. I have another picture of him but I am not sure it could ever be used on here. … I have a photo of him from An P showing him in "all his regal garb" - however, it is copyrighted so cannot be used on here. --Vintagekits 14:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Righto.  If you have a picture of Sir Norman, "in regal garb", perhaps you could contact the copyright owner in an attempt to gain permission.  I presume you know who owns the copyright as you know it's copyrighted. --Counter-revolutionary 15:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The picture is likely to be permissible under fair use, especially if it shows him in his garb and he is deceased so a free version cannot be created. One Night In Hackney303 18:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Vk might now like to answer ONiH's point about the photograph. What is the source? - Kittybrewster 11:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sir Norman Stronge photo

message: Does this quotation actually add anything?'Tim Pat Coogan stated in The Green Book: I, "Sir Norman Stronge and his son were shot and their home burned because sectarian assassinations were claiming the lives of Catholics"'This looks to be merely Mr. Coogan's opinion.--Major Bonkers (talk) 09:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If true, it shows how futile and pointless the assassination was.  Kittybrewster  (talk) 23:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pointless citation?

message: Re. this edit .  It is factual to state that a) the IRA were (and are) proscribed in Northern Ireland, Great Britain, where this attack took place and, as a consequence the high velocity weapons and grenades used were illegal.  Thus it gives an accurate, factual, representation to be included.--Counter-revolutionary 19:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: its an unecessary and POV edit - why dont I just add every single country in the world in which they are not a proscribed organisation immediately after your edit!--Vintagekits 19:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: hmmm, let me think, because the attack took place in a country where they were proscribed! --Counter-revolutionary 19:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you'll find it was perfectly legal to own high velocity weapons. One Night In Hackney303 22:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't be so pedantic. It's a proscribed (illegal) organisation, in the UK - which is where these killings took place.  Their arms wouldn't have been legally held and their grenades would certainly not have been. --Counter-revolutionary 22:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Prove that the arms were illegally held, otherwise it's original research and can't be used. One Night In Hackney303 22:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can prove they're proscribed.  One day, when I have too much time on my hands, I'll prove (i.e. source) the rest too. --Counter-revolutionary 23:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proscribed Organisation...

message: Much of this story is re-told in Tynan Abbey, but with a different tone. We should try to make the descriptions of the events in various articles more consistent.  ·:·Will Beback  ·:· 20:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They come from different angles. One's about a house, the other a man. --Counter-revolutionary 21:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency 

message: This does not meet WP:RS. An "fsnet" domain name is free webhosting, so it's just someone with a website. The banner reads "Sinn Fein/IRA where (sic) nothing more..." so it doesn't seem to have "an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight". Removed the unreliable source, and requested citation. One Night In Hackney303 22:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Granted the source is clearly PoV but this is clearly not a contentious issue, as anyone who was at the funeral could tell you. --Counter-revolutionary 22:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is a man with a website, that does not meet WP:RS. I'm not saying the quote is contentious, had I thought it so I would have removed the entire quote at the same time. Please provide a reliable source for it. One Night In Hackney303 22:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unreliable source

message: Surely this is a good article. Everything's referenced, reads very well, nice style, NPoV, &c., &c... --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Good Article"

message: Disruptive edits are never acceptable. WP:NPOV comments by Republican sympathisers are certainly not acceptable. Sir Norman Stronge and his son were brutally murdered in the most heinous circumstances. The adjective 'killed' does not go anywhere close to describing this barbaric and cowardly crime against humanity. --De Unionist (talk) 12:16, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The brutal nature of the killing is readily apparent in the existing dispassionate and encyclopædic text.  There is no need to elaborate further. --Simon Harley (talk | library | book reviews) 12:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Disagree, it could be much better and I will attempt to do so with verifcations in due course. This is what the project is all about, improving articles. --De Unionist (talk) 12:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's about improving articles, but not to change them to show your viewpoint on events. Remember Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopaedic, not a news source, not a soapbox, and not a site to display your views on a matter. Canterbury Tail talk 15:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

text: It is the verifiable facts that count, nothing else. --De Unionist (talk) 01:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, verifiable facts. What you changed needs to be verified. It needs to be referenced that it's murder, referenced that they where heavily armed terrorists, referenced that he was a serial killer etc. Canterbury Tail talk 02:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The verifiable facts are already there.  There is already a paragraph devoted to the description of the killings as "murder" by a number of news sources.  How is that not satisfactory? --Simon Harley (talk | library | book reviews) 09:01, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: (ec) The reason that it is not acceptable to De Unionist is due to their POV the comment they made above killed' does not go anywhere close to describing this barbaric and cowardly crime against humanity shows that they want to editorialise and push a POV. BigDuncTalk 09:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

text: It is more than satisfactory. O Fenian (talk) 09:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

text: No. Saying who said he was murdered as at present is sufficient. O Fenian (talk) 09:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Talk English please otherwise STOP disrupting. --De Unionist (talk) 09:37, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I disagree.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Killed is quite sufficient, there is enough info in the article for people to make up their own minds, which is jsut as it should be per WP:NPOV.  Also be aware of the three revert rule which you are in grave danger of breaching, an which could lead to you being blocked, also see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles which any uninvolved administrator could decide should be applied to you.  David Underdown (talk) 11:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In what way is "murder" a POV term? As I understand it, there is no dispute that Stronge's killing was premeditated and unlawful. Therefore, by definition, it was murder. Mooretwin (talk) 14:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe these links will verify it.   --De Unionist (talk) 13:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a more philosophical question related to the idea taht one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter - murder or assassination?  Wikiepdia forces us to consider the other side's point of view as well as our own, and represent matters as fully and neutrally as possible.  So we say he was killed, put up all the basic facts, and allow the reader to decide for themselves how they wish to characterise the killing, regardless of our own views on teh matter.  David Underdown (talk) 14:40, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: An assassination is a category of murder: not a separate classification to murder. There may be those who believe that the murder of Sir Norman was justified for political reasons, but that does not alter the fact that it was a murder - unless there is anything to suggest that his killing was either (a) not intentional or (b) not premeditated. Mooretwin (talk) 10:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Consider yourself and your "sock" mate out numbered on this occasion.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

text: De Unionist (talk) is a sock puppet of The Maiden City and has been blocked indefinitely.--Domer48'fenian' 12:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is no other name for cold-blooded MURDER. 

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified