Talk:Smart grid

message: I have heard a lot of talk against the Smart Grid on the basis that it is merely a way for our government to keep tabs on how much energy we are using.  I believe these people are missing the main point of a Smart Grid, whose primary goal is to use energy efficiently, not to monitor and throttle usage based on a function of their consumption, how much the wind is blowing, etc.
"Improved energy efficiency could cut the rapidly growing rate of energy consumption by more than half over the next 15 years, according to the McKinsey Global Institute."  From: 
Ionate (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Its about efficiency, not the monitoring

message: "Smart grids received further support with the passage of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, which set aside $11 billion for the creation of a smart grid."
Curiously, the American Recovery and Investment Act of 2009 has no specific mention of $11 billion for smart grid development. While there are several other figures relate to utilities, the only explicit allocation of money for "electricity delivery and energy reliability activities to modernize the electric grid" is for $4.5 billion--not $11 billion as claimed. This information is located on page 24 of the document here: 
Can this copy of the investment act be used as for citation?
Ricojonah (talk) 19:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Uncited Funding Discrepancy

message: In the US a concept called Gridwise is known, it looks like Smart Grid.
Ref.1: Main Gridwise pages: 
Ref.2: Pacific Northwest National Laboratory: 
Ref.3: Architecture Council: 
Bouwhuise (talk) 21:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Gridwise

message: I have such a problem with this section that it motivated me to get involved: Smart Grid is an enormous concept, that is frequently oversimplified, perhaps simply to match any one actor's POV, but possibly to highjack the bandwagon for preferred interpretations.  Here, this Overview takes a REAL, but excessively narrow, interpretation of Smart Grid and offers it as something "simply and clearly stated".  In doing so, it tends to polarize this along some very parochial lines, that is not helpful to understanding the big picture.  I also believe that the Overview uses some perjorative language.  If of interest, I can start work on some suggestions to correct this, but I am unsure of the protocols.
XAmazy (talk) 00:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Overview

message: Europe's SuperSmart Grid and Gore's continental Unified Smart Grid have the architecture that implies a semantic distinction between a local smart grid and the national interconnection layer which also has intelligence but should not be confused with local smart grids.  This seems to conflict with some passages in the current smart grid article.
The Supersmart grid paper by Battaglini et al associates the term "smart grid" with local clusters (page 6), whereas the intelligent interconnecting backbone provides an additional layer of coordination above the local smart grids.  
There is not just semantic but physical separations.  Decentralization means the national interconnection backbone could go down but the local smart grids would be able to function independently.
However, in some passages of the article as of the date of this post, "smart grid" is used to refer to a national grid, for example in the context of the mention of the 2007 energy bill.
It seems to me, if smart grid is used in an unmodified form, the dominant sense should be of a local network that has implemented smart grid features.  
Does everyone go along with that way of looking at it, or is the national/ transcontinental interconnect layer simply another feature of a smart grid?  If so, there would have to be some authorities on the architecture/ robustness questions that naturally arise when discussing the relation of local nodes to the global structure.  Since the Supersmart grid and Unified smart grid proposals are at best sketchy at this time, attempting to fold the interconnection layer into the description would be impractical. -Mak (talk) 08:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue is far from settled; in fact, it may prove to be one of the most fundamental and problematic issues, as it may impact underlying issues of ownership and control.  While the existing grid consists of a 2-3 -level hierachy of (mostly) radial distribution lines, supported by a 2-3 -level hierarchy of (mostly) networked transmission lines, the grid of the future will almost certainly be more highly networked; and, although still "voltage-layered" for practical reasons, it may possibly be far less hierarchical, control-wise, as control schemes become more sophisticated and flexible.  The new, lower-level networks are becoming identified as "microgrids" with the remainder of the traditional system (with or without "smart" improvements) as the macrogrid.  As important as it is (perhaps the most significant engineering undertaking of the next quarter-century), we are very, very early into a rather long (15-25 years) developmental phase for this concept.  While the technology of the so-called "low-hanging fruit" may be of techie interest, and the sociological issues of privacy and control may have some cultural interest, I believe that there will be more long-term encyclopedic value in tracking the developmental discussions of functional objectives and the "architectural" technical issues, as these will drive regulatory, legal, financial, and sociological impacts.  Amazy (talk) 20:28, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Architecture question 

message: As a note to watchers for articles in other languages to make interwiki links to, I am listing here equivalent terms in other languages:
*fr: réseau électrique intelligent
*
-Mak (talk) 20:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interwiki watch 

message: Apart from bragging rights controversy from various cities regarding who is on top with smart grids, there is significant information regarding the practical details of how these various smart grid technologies are integrated.  I cleaned out a lot of the self promotion statements and links to vacuous press releases.  Practical illustration of real smart grids probably are necessary for good coverage of a catch all technology term like "Smart grid" that can mean many things to many people.  However, the volume probably requires a separate article.  Without looking at actual implementations, we may have a "beautiful woman on the radio" problem- where everyone has a significantly different picture from everyone else.  -J JMesserly (talk) 18:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beautiful woman on the radio problem: need for good Case studies 

message: Indeed, I also found the "Deployments and attempted deployments" section lacking, and I'd be happy to contribute many more examples of deployed smart grids.  Would this help address the "beautiful woman on the radio" problem?  I think it would. Bdamm (talk) 23:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deployments and attempted deployments: Can be massively updated. 

message: With all the news about smart grids being vulnerable (starting with the front page of the Wall Street Journal last week), should the section on how they are 'resistant to attack" be modified to say that there are very serious concerns over the security of smart grids, and that most smart grids constructed to date are inadequately secured? Gaintes (talk) 14:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Puffery

message: In 2012 it is said Earth is likely to move into a period of increased solar flares. Ofcourse these can inflict havoc on electrical grids, space satelites, and other electronic devices. Can Smart grids mitigate or better recover from issues like this? CaribDigita (talk) 04:00, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can Smart-Grids better manage solar flares? 

message: The section on functions of a smart grid states it must:
# Be able to heal itself
# Motivate consumers to actively participate in operations of the grid
# Resist attack
# Provide higher quality power that will save money wasted from outages
# Accommodate all generation and storage options
# Enable electricity markets to flourish
# Run more efficiently
The wording of the overview assumes a smart grid's purpose is primarily #2.  That is a myopic summary of this topic.  The transmission grids of Europe and the US require much more intelligence to be able to handle #1 and #2, and these have nothing to do with conservation.  
It is exceptionally difficult to give a good overview of a nebulous topic as this, but the current treatment ignores the 7 other functions of the smart grid.  -J JMesserly (talk) 01:06, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overview- a smart grid 's function is to prod consumers? 

message: The  self-healing section now has material on 'autonomous reinforcement learning controllers'.  What are these?  This sounds like gibberish. - Crosbiesmith (talk) 16:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Autonomous reinforcement learning controllers

message: What about disadvantages of these systems? Risks from hacking ect.? Or about how ( for some meters ) the signals are encrpyted for remote turnoff and reporting? Smithsoni0201 (talk) 22:28, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wireless ,NDA's, remote management of household electronics – surely there's some research into the security part of these technologies. Greatder (talk) 13:26, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  encryption security, ect. 

message: To remove puffery, shameless promotional efforts, newspeak, buzzwords, and hype, I'm proposing the following rewrite of the article, using this text:
The so called "smart grid", hereinafter referred to as the Spy Grid, is simply an effort by free-market fundamentalists, Washington spies, Enron fraudsters, government central-planners, and head-in-the-sand wind-power and massive-ignorance deep greens to import Enron, electricity commodity markets, EMP vulnerability, and computerized mumbo-jumbo into consumers' electric meters, and to use that computerized mumbo-jumbo to export tremendous wads of cash out of consumers' pockets by massive fraud disguised as renewable energy, nothing more, nothing less.
The Spy Grid has the following 5 goals:
#Soaking home users with time of use rates using Enron-inspired market fraud and dump and pump scams. You want to use your air conditioner when it's hot? That'll be $100 per kilowatt, upfront! You want to keep your kids from freezing? Then prepared to pay out of your ***!  That's how Kenny Boy likes it!
#Providing government agencies like the DEA and the FBI the ability to spy on consumer electric use. You know they have all those databases, and one of the advantages of the Spy Grid is that appliances will identify themselves to the State Central Planning Department for control and transmission of data. You can bet that this high-quality intelligence on citizens will be going into the massive spy databases of Washington, probably using the power company as a proxy, who will then hand the data over to government spies on a silver platter, sufficiently laundered. Every cell phone call made in the United States is already recorded in full and stored on the NSA storage area network for later analysis and transcription by the Main Core database, the largest database on Earth, that uses advanced voice-recognition transcription software to turn your phone calls into searchable text, which is then stored in Main Core - forever. Do you really want the channel you're watching on your television to be known by the DEA? (Are we watching few too many "Weeds" reruns?) Or perhaps the boys down at the power company - and with the power company - the FBI/NSA spies in Washington - want to know how many kilowatt-hours were used by your Hitachi Magic Wand last month? Perhaps you'll oblige them. Just buy into this Spy Grid nonsense.
#Providing government or private central planners with the ability to turn off parts of your electrical system without your acceptance or approval. Prepare to have the contents of your refrigerators and freezers go bad, your heating systems to shut down in the dead of winter, your grandparents oxygen concentrators to turn themselves off, and your computers - when you're writing your dissertation - to instantly shut down because Central Electricity Planning saw the wind speed decrease, and the proletariat in Sector 13 or City 17 had insufficient carbon credits procured.
#The Spy Grid will be massively vulnerable to EMP, due to digital technology used in it. All it takes is some terrorist with a nuke and a rocket, if they launch into orbit, and detonate it, it's lights out for whatever country is below - forever, as all the electronic equipment in the power grid will be insta-fried. Resiliency? My buttocks. All this Spy Grid hype is probably a plot by some 13th-century Islamist cartel to be able to knock out the Great Satan with just one nuke.
#The reason why deep-greeners like the Spy Grid is that it is the only way an intermittent power system, like wind power, can work. If the wind doesn't blow, then wind power doesn't work; if the sun don't shine, neither do solar panels. So what's the goal here? By pushing rates massively upwards because the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining, you can force people to change their behavior and not use energy when the power system (that they're trying to break) isn't working. In reality, though, people won't change their behavior, they'll just swallow the rates, until they become outrageous...and then the greeners get thrown back to whence they've came, and some power plants that don't produce greenhouse gasses and actually work all the time (e.g. hydro dams and nuclear plants) get built. But in the mean time, the little guy gets soaked with exorbitant rates, and the country gets swindled for hundreds of billions by their free-market lackeys who laugh all the way to the bank where they get cashed out by their bankster buddies.
The Spy Grid is the biggest scam since the Church of $ci... well, we won't get into that. But it's time this article actually called a spade a spade and stopped using buzzwords, newspeak, and endless commercial hype to put lipstick on the pig that the Spy Grid proponents stand for.
----
Now how's that for a fresh start? 96.236.121.127 (talk) 23:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: +1 for a fresh start. I don't know how much of the above spy story can be documented, but reading it conveys what a Smart Grid if feared to be --and by contrast what it claims to be-- more quickly and effectively that any comparable amount of writing. ale (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Net metering is all well and good, and I'd encourage it for those who are interested in renewables, but the rest of us aren't very interested. As for V2G, that's shameless hype, as a car can power one house, at most, if one is lucky. Not many other people are interested in ruining their car's engine to turn it into an electrical generator. Car engines only have a lifetime of 30-90 days of continuous use, interestingly enough.74.106.71.103 (talk) 16:08, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Loaded? Probably. But definitely more realistic. Need to tone it down and get lots of references. Greatder (talk) 13:31, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Rewrite to Remove Puffery, Promotional Efforts, Newspeak, Buzzwords, and Hype 

message: Many American power companies have applied for massive funds for smart grids from the 700 billion dollar crisis aid package that was approved by Congress last spring.  Decisions are still pending as to who will get anything and how much.  It would be great if this article could at least mention this fact, and keep information up to date about its further development.
--dunnhaupt (talk) 16:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: US government aid

message: I can't even find the words to describe how un-encyclopedic this article is.  It's not just the lack of NPOV - this whole article reads like it has been transplanted from some poorly-written speculative essay.  Adding .  Zak (talk) 22:52, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree whole-heartedly.  I came here looking for a decent article on the topic and this is a complete train-wreck. --Gamecat42 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 16:29, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone 

message: All power grids today are not smart grids and most can never be. This article appears to be about something real when it is in fact about an illusion that has never been built and may never be. If it was, it might get hacked but it is not so there is nothing to hack. Something should be added to indicate there are no smart grids in existence today and may never be.
This article qualifies for inclusion in Genre Science Fiction. Scottprovost (talk) 00:03, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I must disagree with both contributors: The "Smart Grid" is NOT an actual thing which either does or does not exist, but a CONCEPT, that can be --and, indeed, is-- implemented in practice, to one degree or another.  Most current "Smart Grids" being "built" are very tentative, very incremental, very "thin," very "RD&D," and very expensive, but are not necessarily without real value.  The problem lies is not confusing real and valuable, but very small, first steps with the enormous potential whith will necessarily take a very long while to fully understand, much less fully realize.  Amazy (talk) 20:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

text: It might be the case that most "Smart Grids" are thin, tentative, and incremental.  However, there are certainly cases now of "Smart Grids" that are not thin.  As of today, we have large deployments that are servicing a majority of given utilities districts.  The industry has begun and we can point to specifics. Bdamm (talk) 04:43, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dumb grids 

message: Rather than try to summarily rewrite this mess of an article and, perhaps, losing interesting tidbits in the mix, I propose to simply add more organization and formal citations, beginning at the beginning, so to speak, with the actual definition of "Smart Grid" (at least, in the U.S.).  I'll wait to see if anyone cares enough to contribute other definitions from other jurisdictions or authorities before I consider any global definition.  As there as a many definitions of "Smart Grid" as there are customers who are unhappy with their utility service or salesmen with something to sell, I propose sticking to authoritative sources.Amazy (talk) 21:16, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization 

message: Perhaps that DNV Kema Energy & Sustainability can be mentioned. Appearantly they developed some devices (ie washing machines) that can be set to start washing at a specific time when the load on the mains electricity grid is low (and thus when the electricity is cheapest).
91.182.178.137 (talk) 14:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  DNV Kema

message: The above text seems unbiased and it is well referenced. I therefore approve the editor to make the edits:
1292simon (talk) 08:16, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I'm going to wait a little while before implementing, because North had some possible objections, but said he would let another editor decide, so I'll wait and see if anyone else comments. User:Corporate Minion 13:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been sitting back on this, having already given some input at my talk page.  I'd be happy to actually put this in but I would modify it while doing so. I'd be a bit more explanatory on OpenODR.   I'd still mention Honeywell but probably a bit less less on highlighting them.   Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a plan. User:Corporate Minion 16:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I put in as I was comfortable with.  Others please feel free to change. North8000 (talk) 18:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Feedback from other editors

message: My apologies if I don't have this comment placed properly here; I wasn't sure where it should go but this seems to be the most logical place. I do have a COI for IEEE, as I am a member of their PR team; please see my COI declarations on my talk page.
For the purpose of this article, I have added a minor reference about the IEEE Smart Grid Initiative to the Guidelines, standards and user groups section, as IEEE P2030 is part of the Initiative. No other information was added and I (hopefully) have it cited properly. If I've made any mistakes, please do feel free to let me know - they are not intentional or malicious in nature.
Mdrozdowski (talk) 16:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks OK to me.  Perhaps you could update the "due out in 2011" sentence which follows it. North8000 (talk) 17:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: IEEE Smart Grid

message: The Smart grid article currently includes a short segment on Smart Power Generation, a concept by Wärtsilä Corporation. I work for the company, and have been tasked with looking into getting a separate article for Smart Power Generation. To that end, I already have a draft text I could send to someone to take a look at. 
So, the questions: (1) would it be ok to create a separate page just for Smart Power Generation, and (2) if so, who should I send the text proposal to (or do I just copy it here)?
Kind regards, 
Kimi Arima
Wärtsilä Power Plants
:Don't create a page if you have a COI. Paste what you have here and I'll take a look at it. RyLaughlin (talk) 17:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  A separate article for Smart Power Generation? 

message: The "smart" in "Smart Grids" implies intelligence. Any definition of Smart Grids needs to define them in terms of intelligence. The current definition of smart grid sites 
U.S. Department of Energy. "Smart Grid / Department of Energy" as an authority for what it says yet that does not define what a smart grid is. It describes uses of them but not what they are. The material here is no where in the cited article. Defining something in terms of how it is used is not a good definition. It is like saying a car is something used to go places such as work and school. By that definition, a motorcycle and even a bicycle is a car.
The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission Assessment of Demand Response & Advanced Metering defines a Smart Grid System as "A system which includes a variety of operational and energy measures including smart meters, smart appliances, renewable energy resources, and energy efficiency resources.". I will update the article appropriately. Sam Tomato (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Smart Grids are smart

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: * IEEE edX short-course on smart grids - "Smart Grids: Electricity for the Future" 
* ieeex.org: Free online courses from IEEE MaynardClark (talk) 20:29, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: IEEE edX short-course on smart grids

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message: Main problem is it's too USA centric. Greatder (talk) 11:54, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment on Video(Globalize)