Talk:History of measurement/Archive 2

message: : Units were often defined to a high degree of accuracy 
: by tying the units of length and area to units of volume. 
: This example, uses English measures as a base and 
: Egyptian and Roman measures as units of comparison:
: English inch := 25.4 mm
: English finger := 20.32 mm
: That would be 4/5", I've only seen 3/4" or 7/8" 
: given for English digit/finger(-breadth) so far. 
: 1/16th of a foot (¾") would be consequent, not 1/15th. 
: Break out your Stanley Tape measure and look for the diamond at 19.2"
: It comes right after the arrow at 16" which is used by carpenters
: to frame studs so that a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood 
: will land on the studs.
: 19.2 " divides eight  feet into five parts instead of 6
: An English cubit of 19.2" has 6 palms and 24 fingers of 20.32 mm or .8"
: Egyptian finger (dj) :≈ 18.75 mm
: Egyptian palm (ssp) := 4 dj ≈ 75 mm
: Egyptian hand (spd) := 5 dj ≈ 93.75 mm
: 1 cubic foot (12″): = 1 ft³
: 1 cubic remen (15.12 "):≈ 2 ft³
: (an Egyptian measure of ≈14.5" adopted by Romans as ≈15" )
: 1 cubic short cubit (17.307"):≈ 3 ft³ 
: 1 cubic ordinary cubit (17.575"):≈ π ft³  
: 1 cubic English cubit (19.2″) :≈ 4 ft³ 
: 1 cubic royal cubit (20.52") :≈ 5 ft³ 
: 1 cubic cubit (6 spd = 21.8″) :≈ 6 ft³ 
: 6 spd/cubit × 5 dj/spd × 18.75 mm/dj / 25.4 mm/in ≈ 22.15 in/cubit 
: 1 cubic cubit (31 dj = 22.96″) :≈ 7 ft³ 
: 24″ × 24″ × 24″ := 8 ft³ 
: 1 cubic meter : = 7 royal cubits³
: 360 Mesopotamian ku (500 mm) :≈ 180 m
: 350 Egyptian royal cubits := 1 minute of march ≈ 183.3 m
: 1 stadion := 600 Attic pous (308.3 mm) ≈ 185 m =
: 1 stadium := 625 Ionian pous = 625 Roman pes (296 mm) ≈ 185 m
: 10 stadia :≈ 1 nautical mile
:: I respectfully disagree with this comment by my editor
: "1 English furlong : ca. 200 m - This Anglo-Saxon unit hasn't changed in length (significiantly) for centuries. It was said to be 1/8th of a (Roman) mile since that was reintroduced in Britain, but in fact it is only exactly 1/8th of the English statute mile of 1593 (QE1). 5280 milliari = 5000 statute miles (132:125).
: Rktect 7/30/05 
: I looked at some of the "Anglo-Saxon" European units 
: from Romania, Norway, Norman France, Germany, Denmark, 
: Finland, Spain, Scotland, Finland, France, and England
: All of them are transparent multiples of Greek and Roman units.
:: I found a couple of similar statements on websites
:: Generally I would characterise such statements as uniformed
:: Especially since you can as readilly find the correct information
:: with the same web search
: The following is from a web page which cites Klein
: "The "ell" is an ancient measure of length,...
: mentioned explicitly in the Magna Charta,... 
: reluctantly signed by King John on 15 June 1215. 
: This document contains sixty-three pledges or clauses; 
: the thirty-fifth is the "measurements" pledge. 
: Translated from the medieval Latin into modern English, 
: this clause reads: "Throughout the Kingdom 
: there shall be standard measures of wine, ale, and corn. 
: Also there shall be a standard width of dyed cloth, russet, 
: and haberject; namely a width of two ells within the selvedges. 
: Weights also are to be standardized similarly." 
: One of the earliest of all tables of English linear mesures, 
: Richard Arnold's Customs of London, c. 1503, 
: contains the following sequence ...
: The length of a barley corn 3 times make an ynche [inch] and 
: 12 ynches make a fote [foot] and 
: 3 fote make a yerde [yard] and 
: 5 qaters [quarters] of the yerde make an elle. 
: 5 fote make a pace. 
: 123[125 in Klein] pace make a furlong 
: and 8 furlong make an English myle [mile]
: Sources: 
: The World of Measurements, by H. Arthur Klein, 
: 736 pages, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1974, SBN 671215655 
: http://www.littletechshoppe.com/ns1625/nshist03.html
: 600 Roman/Greek stadia  111 km, 60 nautical miles 
: or 75 Roman miles (milliare))
: The comment was added " one degree of Earth" which is meaningless
: Its one degree of the earth's equatorial circumference.
: The discussion of such calculations can be found in Ptolomy's geography
: The following question seems a bit naive.
:: My metrology knowledge in fact is better after mediæval times than before or even inside, but what reason would QE1 have had to increase the number of feet or yards in (and the length of) a mile, if not making eight existing furlongs its new size?
: Every time a standard of measure is changed, somebody benefits economically. Someone's acres get larger and they own more land and can charge more in rent or tithes or taxes. Queen Elizabeth clearly had advisors who stood to gain if they suceeded in changing the standards of measure. When they sold her that bill of goods they set the stage for Napoleon and the metric system.
: The mile has always been divided in 8 stadions, stadiums and furlongs
: The Romans also divided the stadium into 5 actus of 125 pes
: When the Milos was 4800 pous the stadion was 600 pous and 185 m
: In a square Milos there were 64 square stadions and 576 aroura
: The Bodelian manuscript dates from this period
: 14 acres maketh a yerde of land
: 5 yerdis maketh a hyde of land  which is 70 acres
: 8 hydis maketh a knights fee which is 560 acres of land
: Look at the confusion 
: the redefinition of the Greek Milos by the Romans and 
: The redefinition of the Milliare by the Elizabeathans, and
: The redefinition of the Mile by the Metric system brings to Europe.
: Virgate - An old English unit of area, 
: equal to one quarter of a hide = 1.25 yerdis = 17.5 acres
: The amount of land needed to support a person. 
: The hide is at its root a German word for household. 
: In the Saxon counties of southern England, 
: it referred to the land sufficient to support one family, 
* which equaled what the family plowed in a year. 
* Depending on the fertility of the land, the hide varied 
* from as little as 60 to as many as 240 acres, 
* but it was typically between 80 and 120. 
* The bovate, 1/8 of a carucate, also appears in the Domesday Book. 
* Its origin is Danish and it is found 
* in the northeastern English counties constituting the Danelaw. 
* A carucata or carucate, like a hide, is approximately 120 acres and 
* like the bovate was found in the Danish counties. 
* Plowland or plowgate is equal to a carucate or 
* an area eight oxen can plow 
* sufficient for a free family to support itself; 
* its origins precede 1100. 
* The plowland compares with the knight’s fee, which was a larger area 
* sufficient to support a knight’s family 
* (perhaps to allow pasture for animal husbandry). 
* Sulung is a Kentish term for two hides. 
* A yoke in Kent is 1/4 of a sulung. 
* A virgate is a rod in linear measure and 1/4 of a hide 
* (or 30 acres) as a measure of area in Saxon counties. 
* Arpent - Unit of length and area used in France, Louisiana, and Canada. * As a unit of length, =~ 191.8 feet (180 old French 'pied', or foot). 
* The (square) arpent is a unit of area, 
* approximately .845 acres, or 36,802 square feet
* Morgen - Unit of area =~ .6309 acres. or 27, 482 SF
* It was used in Germany, Holland and South Africa, 
* and was derived from the German word Morgen ("morning"). 
* It represented the amount of land that could be plowed in a morning. 
* 560 acres =~ 576 aroura 
* The square Milos has become the Knights fee
* in a square stadion there were 9 aroura of 40,000 square pous
* each aroura had a side of 200 pous divisible into 2 plethrons
* each of the 2304 plethron in a square Milos had a side of 100 pous
 
* When the Milliare was 5000 pes the stadium was 625 pes and 185 m
* In a square Milliare there were still 64 square stadiums but
* There were also 25 square actus of 25 acres
* A Heridia was 1.25 acres so there were 20 Heridis to a square Actus
* Each Jugerum was half a Heridium and Half a Jugerum was an acuna.
* A Centuria was 100 Heredia or 125 acres or 5 square Actus
* in a square acre there were 40,000 square pes or pedes
* each acre had a side of 200 pes 
* When the Myle was 5000 fote the furlong was 625 fote and 185 m
* Each square furlong was divided into 25 square actus
* A Heridia was 1.25 acres so there were 20 Heridis to a square Actus
* Each Jugerum was half a Heridium and Half a Jugerum was an acuna.
* A Centuria was 100 Heredia or 125 acres or 5 square Actus
* in a square acre there were 40,000 square feet or fote
* each acre had a side of 200 feet
* When the Mile was made 5280 feet the furlong became 220 yards
* Each square furlong was divided into 10 acres or 8 Heridia
* each acre measured a perch by a furlong 
* Each square furlong was half a square Actus
* Each Jugerum was half a Heridium and Half a Jugerum was an acuna.
* Each Furlong was 16 Jugerum and 32 acuna
* A Centuria was 100 Heredia, 12.5 square furlongs
* 125 acres or 5 square Actus was one 
* in a square acre there were 40,000 square feet or fote
* each acre had a side of 200 feet
* The Romans conquered (much of) Britain, 
* when it was inhabited by Celts, bringing with them their mile. 
* The Germanic Anglo-Saxons, who were hardly Roman or Greek influenced,
* How much influence do you think the Greeks had 
* on the people who lived on the Danube
* arrived later with their furlong and eventually were defeated 
* by the Normans, of Nordic origin but quite “frenchised”.
* Where is it that you think the furlong originated?
 Like the peoples their systems of measurement merged. See also further down. Christoph Päper 15:28, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just say that it implies that, not that I exclude the possibility. Of course there were people who not believed in Earth as a disc a long time ago, some even calculated its circumference to quite some precision—I'm bad with remembering names, sorry—, but it's a huge step from there to have a system of measurement based on that. Also consider that there is not just one Greek stadium. Christoph Päper 15:28, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Units 

message: :This is all very interesting, Rktect, your identity proofs, your 
:theses, your spreadsheets and such.  However, it does sound a 
:little like original research.  Is it not?  If it is, posting it 
:here, I'm afraid, would be against Wikipedia's policy.
:Jimp 23Jul05
::: Rktect 07/29/05 I looked at the Wikipedia definition of original research
::: It says that if you are posting or citing previously published material 
::: that isn't copywrited or that you have permission to use that's fine
::: My cites are to previously published non copywrited material
::: Here is another independant scholar saying essentially the same thing
:::Clandonia
Does Rktect contend that the material he's posting is consensus among scholars? Because if not, the actual ancient units, on which there often is consensus, ought to separated from the international comparisons, which are not. This would also avoid confusion and reversions. Septentrionalis 15:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please answer the question I asked. I am not asking whether you have scholarly support; I am asking if you assert there is a consensus. If not, both PoV should be represented in the article, and separated from the individual measurements, insofar as they are consensus. Septentrionalis 14:21, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research?