Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities

message: I have updated the master list of institutions that are red-linked in chapter lists for fraternities, sororities, honor societies, and other groups covered by our WP.  This list is alphabetical by school name and includes all known associated groups in that single entry. There are also some sources to aid in creating articles for these redlinks, as identified by various editors. This page can hold drafted text for each item until enough info and sources exist to publish as a stub. Items can be removed from the list, once an article is created. Rublamb (talk) 20:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redlinked school pages 

message: Banta's Greek Exchange in the 1910s had a series called "Short Histories of Sororities" by Ida Shaw Martin . The one for Beta Sigma Omicron was at https://books.google.com/books?id=He8TAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA341#v=onepage&q&f=false , and that has about three times the information we have in the article. Even for some of the groups which are still active, it might be worth it to work through them. (That google "book", the year (four issues) had Alpha Sigma Alpha, Alpha Xi Delta, Beta Sigma Omicron &Chi Omega) Naraht (talk) 02:32, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Short Histories of Sororities. 

message: I am removing the "centered" on the status and reference columns in :Template:FratChapter.Naraht (talk) 14:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Rublamb (talk) 18:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also, in :Template:FratChapter2 which does to different list of columns, *everything* is centered. Note this is only used in *one* article List of Phi Sigma Kappa chapters. Nuke all of the code to do centering there as well?Naraht (talk) 20:54, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the article I have been avoiding! If it is the only one with that template, I am almost tempted to move it to a visual editor table, so that the template can be deleted. But, then, one of us would have to deal with that crazy article and all of its photos. Maybe getting rid of centering it an easier solution. Rublamb (talk) 01:10, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahem.  It appears, someone, should work on that article.  It was an early effort on my part, and since then we have come to solid agreement on syntax. If someone has a better solution for the photos, I'd love to see it.  A scrolling ribbon?  Jax MN (talk) 20:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The photos have stumped me for two years. Following what we have done for other articles, I think there could be a section on Chapter houses in the main fraternity article. These photos can be in a gallery there under that section. Does that makes sense? Rublamb (talk) 23:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I'd hoped, earlier, that this would spark other groups to add galleries of house photos.  As long as we keep them somewhere, I'm supportive of that change.  A scrolling gallery would make the most sense. Jax MN (talk) 23:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The other options is photos within the table but I have never been a fan of the those tiny images. Rublamb (talk) 23:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I felt the same way, after seeing examples. I tested several styles. Jax MN (talk) 23:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have moved the photos to Phi Sigma Kappa#Chapter houses. Before I tackle the table, do we want to keep the photo links or is the gallery in the main article enough? If we do keep the photo links here, should they be in their own column? Rublamb (talk) 04:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for moving things forward on this one.  The thumbnail layout bothered me, as it simply had too much white space.  I just revised that section to use the gallery-hover template, where the captions pop up with a cursor movement.  I'd like feedback on this, too.  Also, there may be another type of gallery template I don't have at the moment, like a big wheel of photos that one may scroll through, left to right.  Would that be better?  Jax MN (talk) 19:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a preference. I like the "passive" presentation of the photo captions in the traditional gallery template but do understand your issue with that much white space in an article that is already really long. With art, I would prefer the white space to let each image stand on its own, but that is not as important with chapter house photographs. Of course, the best solution is to have a short description of the historically important chapter houses and align the photos with the text, as done with St. Anthony Hall. I will eventually work on that after I finish upgrading the chapter house stub articles, which may or may not be linked to the main GLO article. I think I am 2/3s completed on that project. Rublamb (talk) 18:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

text: What about the links to the photos that are in the chapter list reference section? Rublamb (talk) 18:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Phi Sigma Kappa is converted, so there should not be any remaining articles using :Template:FratChapter2. This would be a good time to remove that template option since we have agreed not to use it. Rublamb (talk) 18:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Added to Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 May 25. Notifying authors of template.Naraht (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Given our prior discussions - Removing centered. 

message: Does anyone have access to this for 1967 or 1970? The snippet in Google shows that these editions included Eta Upsilon Gamma, which was not included in the 1962 Baird's. I am hoping this might provide some clues to the ending of this sorority. Rublamb (talk) 03:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leland's Annual: The Fraternity-sorority Directory 

message: Should they be newest to oldest or oldest to newest? Naraht (talk) 18:54, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a reasonable question, as any History narrative begins with the oldest sections.  Yet for misconduct, I think starting with the most recent makes sense, trailing into the older items.  Then, after a period of years (ten?) these would normally fall off.  Maybe even earlier, to be relegated to a chapter EFN. Of course some items would remain persistent, as they are of notable significance, like the fraudulent Phi Kappa Psi / Rolling Stone story. Jax MN (talk) 22:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your thought process, but I would stick to chronologic order, per Wikipedia's guidelines. Another idea is the create two subsections: current and historic. That way, the majority of the list would be in date order and the most current could be at the top of the section. Rublamb (talk) 23:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a strong preference here. My instinct is to strive for clarity, and lead with information that casual researchers would want to find.  If you happened to have looked up Wikipedia guidelines for this, you might reference them here, for review by others. Jax MN (talk) 19:17, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It is briefly mentioned in MOS:LISTSORT Rublamb (talk) 19:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, oldest first is preferred...Naraht (talk) 20:03, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Local chapter misconduct sections. 

message: The missing Type cat showed us that the European Groups have been left deliberately empty. Do we use Studentenverbindung for these?Naraht (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: You might check on what they do for other language Wikis.  Here on the English Wiki we could simply create a new type for European or Asian-based. Jax MN (talk) 22:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Looked at a couple that are German, they are described as Studentenverbindung, but even the ones from farther east, which end up at pages that translate as student corporation, end up at Studentenverbindung as the German equivalent which we have an article for in English, so unless there are objections, I'm going to put that on the groups from that tradition.Naraht (talk) 00:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.Naraht (talk) 14:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The German article gives the impression that „Studentenverbindungen/ Studentenkorporationen/ Student associations“ are a special form of a student society at German universities. In fact, this is a possible – but narrow – understanding of the term. The Staatslexikon and the Enzyklopädie der Neuzeit do not provide a clear definition of the term. Although both initially see the term as a synonym for versatile student societies, which would therefore also include forms of student associations in other countries (such as student nations in Sweden or fraternitis in North America), they then narrow it down to the German phenomenon and cite the customs and traditions common to german student associations today (separation of members into Füchse, Burschen und Philister; Kneipen; Wichs) as common characteristics.  It would perhaps be useful to set out the narrower and broader definition of the term „student association“ in the article. Instead of „Studentverbindung“, the article should perhaps be renamed „German Student association“, as the English version of the Enzyklopädie der Neuzeit does. The term fraternity is a rather unfortunate choice. --Teutschmann (talk) 22:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This may be a moot point, as the English Wikipedia need only have the basic structure.  The German Wikipedia may be the best place to include more detail on how these are categorized.  However , if you have a more accurate, generic terms for ALL of these German student groups, better than Studentenverbindung, then let us know. In our Watchlist we aim to list the student groups that are most like US fraternities.  We argue about where to draw the line. Jax MN (talk) 22:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The German term „Studentenverbindung“ or „Studentenkorporation“ corresponds to the term „[German] Student association“ (German not in the sence of the State Germany). What a (German) student association is and what it is not, is clearly defined. Only student associations have the institution of the Kneipe. I would also like to point out that the authors of the article on student fraternities are wrong in almost every statement in the article. And I'm not joking, it's downright bizarre to read through. If I started correcting here, I'd be immediately banned for alleged vandalism.  Hardly any statement in the article is correct. Teutschmann (talk) 22:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Teutschmann: If you are referring to Studentenverbindung, much of that article is unsourced. An update with sources would be appreciated, not challenged, especially from someone who has a better understanding of these groups. Rublamb (talk) 23:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Type for European Groups 

message: As an additional field that won't necessarily display, I'd like to add a defunct parameter to the infobox. We could at *minimum* use this to make sure that some group that merged in more than 100 years ago doesn't complain about not having a website. (Defunct will include merged)Naraht (talk) 19:21, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It should display. I'm actually surprised we don't have a parameter for the closing/defunct/whatever-you-want-to-call-it date. If that does get added in, though, we can easily use it to trigger other things (though it is possible that defunct orgs, even those from 100 years ago, could theoretically have a website). Primefac (talk) 11:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There are several fields in the Infobox Organization that we could copy, including Predecessor, Merged, Successor, Dissolved, and Status. Also, we should add an Affiliation field, rather than having to add it as a free field. Another area to review is the Chapters field. We could expand this to provide the option of Active Chapters, Dormant Chapters, Alumni Chapters, and Graduate Chapters. These could stand alone or populate the Chapters field, the way Lifetime goes into the Members field. That would let us added chapter options without having to immediately address the many variations of data currently in the Chapter field. Rublamb (talk) 13:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

text:  I missed the proposal to display. I'm neutral to positive on that idea.Naraht (talk) 17:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I'd prefer the full words spelled out, rather than D, M or A.  It's more clear, for casual researchers. This will be a helpful addition to the infoboxes. Jax MN (talk) 21:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine on the full words requirement. Setting up a maint category if the value is anything else is fine.Naraht (talk) 21:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Coding-wise it's not that much more onerous to have extra values (since we'd likely be using a #switch statement anyway) but I'm happy to work with whatever gets decided. I do suppose if there are other triggers then simpler would be better. Primefac (talk) 11:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we are go on this. I figure create the parameter, add it to the infoboxes, use it to limit the no website category and then see what else we can use it for. The Defunct and Merged should correspond with the entries in :Category:Defunct fraternities and sororities and their subcategories, but I'm not sure that is something worth putting into stone.Naraht (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Additionally, given that some GLOs sort of fall apart and have chapters brought in, I'm going with the following distinction between merged and defunct based on the Delta Sigma Epsilon merger into Delta Zeta. If all (or most) alumni members of organization A are offered membership into organization B then it is a Merger, otherwise it isn't. (I'm not saying all because if Organization B has a chapter at the same school as Organization A, often those chapters are released without the undergraduate members of Organization A being offered membership). Alumni members of the chapter of Organization A at that school can get tricky).Naraht (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

text:  Also, I'm pretty sure we should use status rather than Status as a parameter. Consistency on lower case.Naraht (talk) 14:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: . Primefac (talk) 14:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think about adding one more standard word for the status field?  "Withdrew" to be followed by a specific year in parantheses.  This is for now-local chapters at a few schools which were once affiliated with a national fraternity.  Does the current rule set for this param allow for additional words? Jax MN (talk) 00:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Infobox refers to the organization (not chapters), it doesn't make sense to  "withdrew" in the Infobox status field--a GLO cannot withdraw from itself. This term only makes sense for a chapter list. Rublamb (talk) 02:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Examples of this would be the Dartmouth locals that have Wikipedia articles, but which were once part of national fraternities, like Chi Gamma Epsilon. Jax MN (talk) 02:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If the article is about a "new" local GLO, why wouldn't its status be Active? It did not withdraw from itself. A better solution would be to include a predecessor field. Rublamb (talk) 02:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In the case of Chi Gamma Epsilon, they previously had listed their founding as a Kappa Sig chapter, 120 years ago as their founding date.  However, as they are/were schismatic, I switched that to note their new founding date as a local, and following Rublamb's suggestion I'd noted the Kappa Sig origin using free fields.  I suppose this is best.  Jax MN (talk) 09:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information field - defunct 

message: Status parameter. 
#3 values. D for Defunct. M for Merged. A for Active. Also accepting the full word. 
#If Status = Merged and Merged_with field has a value, display. (Could be Multiple). 
#Website/Homepage displays regardless, but only "complains" if Status = "A". 
#Remove Former from text in affiliation (other?), add programatically if D or M.
I figure that even with all of the organizations we have, filling in that would take us together a few days. Naraht (talk) 19:20, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd prefer the full words spelled out, rather than D, M or A.  It's more clear, for casual researchers. This will be a helpful addition to the infoboxes. Jax MN (talk) 21:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine on the full words requirement. Setting up a maint category if the value is anything else is fine.Naraht (talk) 21:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Coding-wise it's not that much more onerous to have extra values (since we'd likely be using a #switch statement anyway) but I'm happy to work with whatever gets decided. I do suppose if there are other triggers then simpler would be better. Primefac (talk) 11:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we are go on this. I figure create the parameter, add it to the infoboxes, use it to limit the no website category and then see what else we can use it for. The Defunct and Merged should correspond with the entries in :Category:Defunct fraternities and sororities and their subcategories, but I'm not sure that is something worth putting into stone.Naraht (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Additionally, given that some GLOs sort of fall apart and have chapters brought in, I'm going with the following distinction between merged and defunct based on the Delta Sigma Epsilon merger into Delta Zeta. If all (or most) alumni members of organization A are offered membership into organization B then it is a Merger, otherwise it isn't. (I'm not saying all because if Organization B has a chapter at the same school as Organization A, often those chapters are released without the undergraduate members of Organization A being offered membership). Alumni members of the chapter of Organization A at that school can get tricky).Naraht (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

text:  Also, I'm pretty sure we should use status rather than Status as a parameter. Consistency on lower case.Naraht (talk) 14:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: . Primefac (talk) 14:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think about adding one more standard word for the status field?  "Withdrew" to be followed by a specific year in parantheses.  This is for now-local chapters at a few schools which were once affiliated with a national fraternity.  Does the current rule set for this param allow for additional words? Jax MN (talk) 00:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Infobox refers to the organization (not chapters), it doesn't make sense to  "withdrew" in the Infobox status field--a GLO cannot withdraw from itself. This term only makes sense for a chapter list. Rublamb (talk) 02:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Examples of this would be the Dartmouth locals that have Wikipedia articles, but which were once part of national fraternities, like Chi Gamma Epsilon. Jax MN (talk) 02:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If the article is about a "new" local GLO, why wouldn't its status be Active? It did not withdraw from itself. A better solution would be to include a predecessor field. Rublamb (talk) 02:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In the case of Chi Gamma Epsilon, they previously had listed their founding as a Kappa Sig chapter, 120 years ago as their founding date.  However, as they are/were schismatic, I switched that to note their new founding date as a local, and following Rublamb's suggestion I'd noted the Kappa Sig origin using free fields.  I suppose this is best.  Jax MN (talk) 09:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal -> Status 

message: Is it worthwhile to have an "Unknown" (not sure on the word) status? I've seen a couple like Delta Epsilon Iota where we don't seem to have surety.Naraht (talk) 19:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch.  I agree. The word will also gather answers to the little mystery. Jax MN (talk) 20:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  defaults to  if it doesn't match one of the given values, so  would still show as "Unknown". Primefac (talk) 11:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Once we get the number of missing statuses down to a reasonable (which might be zero), we might want to generate a directory where the value is something other than the given values. (so Unknown and foobar would both drop things into further research needed)Naraht (talk) 17:44, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Unknown

message: 10 Active chapters, 5 Inactive chapters, should chapters = 10 or chapters = 15? Naraht (talk) 00:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've often wondered that when I see the infobox in the wild. If anything we should change the wording of the label to be "Active chapters" to make it more obvious. I don't think the number of inactive chapters is particularly useful. Primefac (talk) 11:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: In the wild indeed. What about a defunct group that used to have 375 chapters? Would that be zero? I tend to go with the number of active chapters if the group is still active and the total lifetime chapters if the group is defunct. But what about a case of 125 total chapters with only 3 active? Some editors solve this issue by something like: 3 (active), 122 (dormant), but not everyone does this and I think it clutters the field. See my suggestion below. Rublamb (talk) 12:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Reposting my suggestion for the chapter field from above:  We could expand this to provide the option of Active Chapters, Dormant Chapters, Alumni Chapters, and Graduate Chapters. These could stand alone or populate the Chapters field, the way Lifetime goes into the Members field. That would let us add these chapter options without having to immediately address the many variations of data currently in the Chapter field. Rublamb (talk) 13:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: My only quick comment here is that I *hate* using the term dormant in this context. If a GLO uses that term fine, but using it across the project, ug.Naraht (talk) 16:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Inactive works for me. That terminology would align with our chapter tables. FYI: I just came across an article that had something like: 123 (chartered), 12 (active) in the Chapter field. Rublamb (talk) 17:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: At least useful. A group down to 10% of charters. Oof. Naraht (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , by "I *hate* using the term dormant in this context," do you mean we should reserve "dormant" to describe an entire organization, and use "inactive" for individual chapters?  I'd be OK with that.  And again, I support the general plan as discussed.  Jax MN (talk) 20:02, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  All contexts...Naraht (talk) 04:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapters 

message: *I think CIPR (Concilio Interfraternitario de Puerto Rico) even without a page is good as an affiliation and should be before CIPFI.
*the facebook page for Concilio Interfraternitario de Puerto Rico actually lists the Wikipedia template (:Template:Concilio Interfraternitario de Puerto Rico as their website. I don't know if this is AI guessing or not.Naraht (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Anything you can find would be useful. I'd really like to have enough to create the CIPR page (or have someone else create it, I'm not picky. :) )Naraht (talk) 13:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Puerto Rico

message: The local fraternities and sororities at Grove City College all have redirects to the college. Given that they aren't even specifically mentioned in the article anymore, I think they should be nuked. Naraht (talk) 23:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather that the body text for the school article be adjusted to list them.  Without WLs, probably.  I thought that there were one or two that had actual articles.  Did you check each of them?  Jax MN (talk) 23:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked.  Grove City fraternities with articles include: Adelphikos and Pan Sophic, along with numerous redirects. Jax MN (talk) 00:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I agree. Rublamb (talk) 02:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Just remembered: As I mentioned above in Chapters of Greek Societies by Campus, there also redirects in our Watchlist section "Chapters of Greek Societies by Campus" that go to removed content from the university article. The problem in all of these cases is that the unviversity article was trimmed without addressing the related redirects. Does anyone in our WP have authority to delete redirects? I have not had luck with this before because I was not the one who created the redirect. Rublamb (talk) 21:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grove City College redirects. 

message: Fun facts: Wine Psi Phi chapters were named for kinds of wine and its president was the Supreme Grand Grape. And yet, this was not started as a GLO parody. 
I decided to use past tense for the article. As far as I can tell, all collegiate chapters went inactive by the mid-1980s, probably earlier. (It had two hazing deaths in the 1970s that probably were a factor.) Around 2010, alumni began an effort to reform as a community-based fraternity, including hosting national conventions and electing a grand council. Activity seemed to be limited to one graduate chapter in NC which also hosted the national office. However, no one realized that their trademark and copyright had expired in 2014. Some other alumni in Chicago scooped up the trademark and have what appears to be a local service group that uses the former national's name. Unable to reconcile, the revived national had no choice but to change its name. If we say WINE Psi Phi is active, we almost have to pick sides and/or change the name of the article. That does not make sense to me, especially given that the only sources for the revivals and name change are chapter websites. Are we good with past tense for this article? @Naraht added a redirect for the new name. And I have contacted both groups to see if we can get more information on the collegiate closures. Rublamb (talk) 04:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Any one else notice that the greek at the bottom of the new Coat of Arms is Iota Delta Gamma Alpha Phi? and with the new name treatin that as a "Fai", that means it spells out IDGAF, as in "I Don't Give A F---".Naraht (talk) 10:09, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: IDGAF goes back to the early 1970s; I found it in yearbooks too. They say its meaning is only known to the initiated and is not what you think. I found that in the Greek chat forum, so it is not included in the article. My guess is that it predates our usage of IDGAF and, like their WINE anacronym, is now unfortunate for a group that wants to be taken seriously. By the way, the replacement fraternity name uses Old Egyptian/Coptic letters instead of Greek because Egypt was the cradle of civilization, not ancient Greece (their words paraphrased. Silly me. I thought the "cradle" was  Mesopotamia... Rublamb (talk) 12:32, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  WINE Psi Phi 

message: For the Theta Upsilon Omega chapter list, there are eleven chapters marked Merged (ΣΦΕ) , and while that is true, seven of the chapters moved from Theta Upsilon Omega to Sigma Phi Epsilon and became new chapters of Sigma Phi Epsilon, and four of them merged with the Sigma Phi Epsilon chapters on campus. (https://archive.org/details/ourjourneyofbrot0000eske/page/48/mode/2up?q=%22theta+upsilon+omega%22) There is a third possibility, (that I think I saw on either AEPi or ZBT) where a merger led to one of the chapters from the group merging in restored an inactive chapter of the merged into group. Is this worth noting in the Status for the group merging in?Naraht (talk) 19:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I usually explain this as an EFN, with the table sometimes reflecting the eventual successor for that chapter.  It seems this information is both interesting and germane, but also the explanation is too long for an infoxbox field. Jax MN (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the EFN suggestion. At some point, I would like the EFN to say what chapter it became of the successor, not just the successor's name. That would make it much easier for someone to track this type of complex history. Rublamb (talk) 21:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapter List merger, micro vs. macro. 

message: For Zeta Beta Tau, they have a page for each group that merged into ZBT for example, https://zbt.org/about-zbt/our-antecedent-groups/kappa-nu/ Should this be Kappa Nu's homepage in their infobox? (there are a *few* other places I've seen similar) Naraht (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: From the perspective of a later researcher, it would be helpful to offer separate pages for dormant, but merged groups.  --Just as we offer them for fully dormant groups.  Dunno if much else is needed, as the first incidence of Kappa Nu would reasonably include a Wikilink.  ZBT's predecessor groups are really the best example here.  Beta Kappa going into Theta Chi is another. Jax MN (talk) 20:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I would not include this webpage or the successor group's website as the Infobox website. I assume this webpage would be a source for the article, so it would already be included. In addition, there would be a link to the successor's Wikpedia article that would have the website link. Sometimes, I have seen the successor group's website listed in External Links. But on a practical note, one thing I like about inactive org articles is that we don't have to worry about updating their infoboxes. Adding that webpage link just give us something else to monitor. Rublamb (talk) 21:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homepages for merged groups. 

message: Just as a note, I think if a page can be created for Delta Kappa, the NY Regional forced to have its chapters or at least the ones in New York forced Local, we *should* be able to do the same with others from the SUNY system like Alpha Delta Sorority which I think is older.  In the 1929 SUNY-Brockport yearbook (https://dspace.sunyconnect.suny.edu/bitstreams/65b23998-922a-46d6-b663-85fb5385b774/download) , it had chapters at Brockport, Cortland, Geneseo, Oneonta, Oswego, Plattsburgh, Bloomsburg and Fredonia. Agonia Sorority also had about the same number over the SUNY schools. Naraht (talk) 02:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  SUNY regional fraternities 

message: In addition to the Alpha Psi Omega /Delta Psi Omega relationship, it looks like Alpha Phi Gamma sponsored a Journalism honorary at two year colleges called Beta Phi Gamma. Naraht (talk) 20:48, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: If memory serves, Psi Chi sponsors Psi Beta, for two-year schools.  The English honorary may do likewise. Jax MN (talk) 21:07, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, went through a few and found that we do have a category at :Category:Two-year college honor societies, In the short term, I think I'll added enough about Beta Phi Gamma in a section and then create a redirect with possibilities and add it to the cat. Not all of the groups in the cat have a relationship with a four year group, but I think that's the place to start. (And yes, the two year english honorary Sigma Kappa Delta does have a relationship with Sigma Tau Delta.Naraht (talk) 12:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Some of the honor societies have college/high school divisions. Some even have middle school (junior) divisions. Most I came across are a subdivision of a professional associations, rather than stand-alone organizations. Some are already included in the Honor society list. However, I suspect the only source is going to be the professional organization's website. Rublamb (talk) 22:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four year groups *sponsoring* two year groups 

message: Just curious, who took a crack at reducing this one. I remember there were almost 30 in there before including a lot I wasn't sure should be changed.Naraht (talk) 15:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I worked on that. At least one article was moved to a new name. Rublamb (talk) 17:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: During what time period, I'd like to look through them, and not sure where to look in your contributions.Naraht (talk) 14:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Found at about 07:00 on the 14th will look when I have a chance.Naraht (talk) 14:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you have time to look at this? Are there any to talk about? The ones I left have issues: one is a mass up of the term and a group that needs to be split into two articles. Rublamb (talk) 16:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  I didn't, I'll try tuesday or wednesday.Naraht (talk) 21:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with non-matching name 

message: Just found a stub about a German fraternal umbrella association: Wingolf. I added it to the watchlist and added the WP to its talkpage. Rublamb (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  German umbrella org 

message: I definitely undercounted. Patron Saint has at least: Phi Mu Delta, Mu Epsilon Theta, Pi Lambda Sigma, Tau Gamma Sigma, Delta Phi, Theta Phi Alpha, Theta Xi, St. Anthony Hall, AV Edo-Rhenania zu Tokio. Patron Greek Divinity appears to have 16, and Patron Roman Divinity has 5. Wierdest is Theta Kappa Pi which has as its Patron Greek Divinity as Odin the Wanderer (!) which I'm still trying to find a reference for. (added very close to the beginning, which a ref that appears dead. http://mycampus.lewisu.edu/web/170608/about-us .Naraht (talk) 03:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Sarcastic me says "guess we need a field fo Patron Norse Divinity". Being serious, it looks like Greek Divinity is the one the change to the new Patron Divinity field, then we can move the others over. Rublamb (talk) 15:54, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Though at this point, I'm not sure we *need* to change. (ignoring Theta Kappa Pi's situation), I'm not sure that these (at 16, 9 & 5) are the least used of the paramers. I'm guessing both coords and pillars are in the bottom mostly below that. At *most*, I'd want to change this to a variety of free & free_label. (Patron and Patron type?) and does that gain us much? Still wish I could figure out how many are used of each parameter.Naraht (talk) 15:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Pillars is not used because most groups call these something else (often a made up term or phrase). I have added these when I come across them. Having one Patron Divinity field would trim the long list of options and allow for outliers. I would call it Patron Divinity not Patron to avoid possible confusion with sponsors/founders who might be called a Patron. BTW, Affiliation and Status still are not showing up as options in Visual Editor unless they are already added. So we need to solve that issue before or when we make changes. Rublamb (talk) 16:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I see Affiliations and Status at the very end of the list when I use the VE. What is your last one?Naraht (talk) 17:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw them there and thought things were good, but then noticed it was missing. Maybe it is there when adding a new infoboxes, but not for older ones? Or maybe it has to do with whether the infobox was added through VE or not. Picked one at ramdon. See Swing Phi Swing. Rublamb (talk) 17:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It is putting at the end, any undocumented fields that the parameters exists in that article's infobox. So Swing Phi Swing has factoid and Delta Delta Delta has affiliation and status. (that is the (undocumented parameter) note I'm not sure what needs to be altered in Template:Infobox fraternity/doc, but, I'll try to tweek it.Naraht (talk) 18:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Status starting showing up. Now it looks like affiation is there too. Will let you know if I find any other issues. Rublamb (talk) 22:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patron X 

message: The category Fraternities and sororities in Germany seems to automatically change to the category Student societies in Germany which is not a category we would typically follow as it could include many non-fraternal groups. Can someone figure out why this is happening? I know it is tied to Studentenverbindungen--but what if a German fraternity or sorority is not a Studentenverbindungen? Rublamb (talk) 16:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Category:Fraternities and sororities in Germany is a redirect category. Put an article in it and a bot will move it to :Category:Student societies in Germany. That has been true since it was created. Honestly, we shouldn't even use that category. Everything we put in there should end up in a Studentenverbindungen or perhaps more accurately :Category:Studentenverbindungen in Germany category. Roll up the Studentenverbindungen by country categories into :Category:Fraternities and sororities by country. Naraht (talk) 21:51, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fraternities and sororities in Germany 

message: Hi All,
Was just talking with @Naraht over some deletions I made over at Theta Nu Epsilon. Long story short, about a decade ago a bunch of sockpuppets put a whole bunch of fake history on that page and I'm trying to sort out the legit from the totally bogus. There is a whole talk page about it, but complicating the issue is a bunch of the sockpuppets engage in a fake fight with each other. Anyway any help folks could give in cleaning up the article would be greatly appreciated! Jjazz76 (talk) 20:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The Primary source used for the chapter list that was recently deleted is the one from a website that someone put together, which can https://web.archive.org/web/20150403113708/http://thetanuepsilon.org/13Chaplis/ChapterList.html . Other lists that I have found (mostly by googling "Theta Nu Epsilon" and picked at random from the first list Bowdoin) include  https://books.google.com/books?id=xbU0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA233 and https://books.google.com/books?id=PfDmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA228 . The second although without letters, is from Banta's greek exchange. Note, normally I'd consider Banta's and Baird's as being neutral secondary/tertiary sources for articles about GLOs, but for Theta Nu Epsilon, they would be viewed as *somewhat* antagonistic. Went through my copies of Baird's, and wierdly enough some of the index entries in some editions were screwy, but they best I could do is the 1930s Baird's which had a list of those that were part of the 1925ish reconstruction to be more acceptable as a GLO like those in the NIC (no double membership, etc). This is missing quite a few. For example, *every* source I can find has the chapter list starting Wesleyan, Syracuse, Union, Cornell and Rochester. I'd also suggest editions of the Wesleyan Olla Podrida, for example https://books.google.com/books?id=va8PAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA67 .Naraht (talk) 21:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Baird's 20th has a list of 17 chapters.  I'd suggest we roll back these edits and begin looking for sources that confirm each of the groups previously listed. Jax MN (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate the effort to improve this article but I agree to a rollback is best in this situtation. Some of the recently deleted content appears to have legit sources, such as athe chapter list. If content with a citation is going to be removed, there needs to be documentation as to what was wrong with that source, probably on the article's talk page OR replacement content with a new/better source. If these edits are being made based on personal knowledge and not sources, that falls under original research. Rublamb (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of the sources, as far as I could tell, didn't exist or were legitimately made up. The archive talk page way at the bottom, from back in 2008 describes the issues further. But again, if folks think I've deleted too much, I'm totally fine with that. Just trying to work on an article that is a bit of a mess. Jjazz76 (talk) 22:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: References:  <ref name="Theta Nu Epsilon dates">According to the Theta Nu Epsilon website . Retrieved December 6, 2014, but as of November 21, 2018, no longer accessible except for the archived version, the Minnesota chapter of this fraternity was the Alpha Epsilon Chapter which died in 1900. However, the Minnesota Gopher Yearbook 1895, p.163, notes rather the name Tau chapter of  as having chartered at Minnesota in 1893. This incorrect name was a deliberate error. According to the ΘΝΕ website, the Tau designation was "fancied by the chapter," and Chi was also considered, before Alpha Epsilon was allowed.  's Wikipedia page notes (without clear citation) possible activity at Minnesota as late as 1934, which the lack of a Gopher record shows is unlikely.Baird's and other sources note  was an ill-favored national due to its recruitment of sophomores who were already members of other fraternities, and a policy of secrecy about the active members – those same sophomores tapped each year. It was NOT an honorary, nor a service society. (Freshmen were not eligible, juniors and seniors were advisory only.) Hence, ΘΝΕ became a bit of a pariah, and members were pressured to quit lest they be expelled from their primary fraternities at Minnesota (see  Rand History); in 1913 the NIC advocated vigorously against its collegians joining . Struggling for a workable path to legitimacy, several varying models developed on ΘΝΕ's campuses, where some chapters became standard fraternities, and other public inter-fraternity groups. At Alabama, it even became a political machine, while other chapters took yet other forms. Later, with the adoption of changes, ΘΝΕ briefly joined the NIC in the 1930s, but ceased operations after WWII. Several chapters reformed the society as a smaller entity, some becoming co-ed in the 1970s. The fraternity reports a few chapters that remain active today. --All information compiled from Baird's 19th, from the cited ΘΝΕ website, and a note about Theta Nu Epsilon in 's Rand History, in a reference cited under that fraternity, p190. Jax MN (talk) 22:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for these. I just want to make clear I have no issues with Baird or any of the standard reference volumes. There is also a good NY Times article citation in the article that discusses these 1910s to 1920s issues. But the article as it stood, base on a mid-2000s website, list well over 100 chapters many of which had no documentation in Baird, standard reference volumes, or some of the college newspapers I looked through.  Jjazz76 (talk) 22:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Good faith, certainly.  I found some of the claims to be dubious or worse when I worked on that article.  However, after I cleared out some of the chuff, I left the long-ish list of chapters as a breadcrumb trail to help others start their searches for individual chapter references.  I also wrote the summary reference (#1, below), which I think is a fair round-up of a couple of sources.  I use that language elsewhere, so had copied-and-pasted it from the U of MN list of fraternities on Wikipedia. More broadly, it may be useful in a revision to the TNE article.  Others here are better researchers, and we welcome additions to our ranks.  I anticipate that the legitimate TNE chapters will surface in one or two references, somewhere. Jax MN (talk) 23:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

text: GLOs rarely show up in campus newspapers after the 1980s unless there is a hazing incident or chapter house fire, so that does not prove or disprove a chapter. Frustratingly, even yearbooks are not accurate in the last quarter of the 20th century. And, since Baird's last edition was in 1992, we would expect there to be a difference between it and an organizational chapter list from the 2000s. A lot can happen in 2000 years! I will see what I can find--just give me a few days to wrap up other projects. Rublamb (talk) 23:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theta Nu Epsilon? 

message: For the Infobox University, there is a motto and a motto_eng as well as a field for the language of the Motto. While we don't need the last, I think, should the motto and it's translation be split into separate fields?Naraht (talk) 07:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Five or six years ago, didn't you try to capture all the text found on various crests, to place in one of the table columns on the one-page list of all the IFC and NPC organizations?  I think after some discussion we decided it was fruitless, and agreed it was an unnecessary capture.  Somewhat in the same way, I think we are OK in just placing a line break between the Greek and the translation.  I sometimes place the translation in a smaller font, if the fit is better. I think that is probably adequate. Jax MN (talk) 09:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking up Delta Upsilon's "Justice, Our foundation" (which is one of the public, easy to get ones that I can't imagine not getting). It looks like the effort was as part of the greek on the coat of arms at List of social fraternities and sororities. (No page other than that one and Delta Upsilon have that text). User:Gts-tg was the person who started the effort in 2017 a. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_social_fraternities_and_sororities&oldid=794058619  Naraht (talk) 18:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that is correct. Of couse, the phrase on the ceast is not always the motto. Rublamb (talk) 19:14, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

text: I am neutral on having two fields. It would look nice (if we can make sure that the two fields are adjacent) but would be another big project. Also, many of the mottos are now in English only. I have followed the practice of the Latin/foreign language version first, followed by the English version in parenthesis with no line break. At least, that seems to be the most common format. I personally do not like the smaller font. Rublamb (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motto & translation 

message: , you might be best suited to make this adjustment.  I don't think it will be controversial.  We have a current parameter that forces a swap from the standard name of "Pledge" to read as any alternative name denoted in the associated fields, "pledge pin" and "colony pledge pin".  Yet we still have "Colonies" as the only option for emerging groups.  Either we include the terms "Associate Chapters" and "Provisional Chapters" that would be allowed synonyms, or we (er, you) create an open-ended field that populates an alternative word for this field. I think those are the only two synonyms I've encountered.  Note that the syntax should be plural, i.e.; "colonies". Jax MN (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the same issue that exists with Pillars which might be called principals, core beliefs, values, etc. There are other names in use for colonies, especially with the newer GLO and/or multicultural groups. In the  chapters section, I state what the group calls its colonies and, then, use the term colony in the table (making it match the infobox). Are we also going to expand the terms used in chapter lists? Honestly, colonies are transitional in nature and not as important to count, IMO. Baird's only provided a total count for active and inactive chapters. Rublamb (talk) 02:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Frankly, I wouldn't be that sad if the entire concept of colonies disappeared from the infobox.Naraht (talk) 17:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be fine with me. As I said, they are temporary thing. Rublamb (talk) 18:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colonies, alternative name 

message: Did we decided that status was going to be a displayed field?Naraht (talk) 03:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: IDK but it seems yes.  At least, I hope so because I have been actively adding this to Infoboxes. Rublamb (talk) 15:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Displaying status? 

message: After seeing the change to Alpha Kappa Rho. I'm generally feeling the following way. Negative issues should only be included in the lede if that is the only thing that the group has notability for at all. the only one that I can come up with that fits that is Chi Tau (local) (where I am fine with the current) Naraht (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: When I was cleaning up that article, I decided to leave the existing lede content related to violence and gang behavior. I agree it could be tempered but this is relevant here because this is not just a service fraternity. Service fraternities do not require police-led peace accords. IMO, it would be like only mentioning that a Nigerian confraternity is a service organization and ignoring its history of piracy. Even given your suggestion of only including negative content if this is why the group is notable, I believe the only sources for this article that are not primary are about its violent history, making that the only reason the group is notable. Rublamb (talk) 03:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Two cents: The lede should be a summary of the article's following paragraphs, distilling in one or two sentences the key points about the society.  Indeed, the two examples you mention (three, with mention of the Nigerian group), these three indeed should include the detrimental information in the lede.  Jax MN (talk) 08:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Jax MN, Do you have time to look at Alpha Kappa Rho and restore some mention of the negative content? You are really good a distilling facts into a reasonable amount of content. Rublamb (talk) 13:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  In regards to peace accords, while you have the mention of peace accords in regards to AKRho and Tau Gamma Phi, it is much broader than that. Please take a look at the announcement of the peace accord at Western Mindanao State University () which covers AKRho, Tau Gamma Phi/Sigma, Alpha Sigma Phi, Alpha Phi Omega, Order of Demolay and others. (And if negative belongs in the lead,  Tau Gamma Phi probably also qualifies. (18 hazing deaths in the last 18 years more or less)) Naraht (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negative issues in lede...