Talk:Discipline and Punish

message: I've cleaned up the discipline section. It contained two major flaws: 1) an introduction which was essentially a redundant statement of the main themes of the book, 2) a concluding paragraph that appeared to be somewhat irrelevant to the article, and frankly, a personal opinion (it argued that the power relations between the genders in the US are undergoing a substantive change). I also tried to provide a bit more of a lead in to the quote that has been included. I think that the section reads fairly well now, though it is perhaps a bit long. If anyone sees a way to pair it down while retaining the important information that would be great! Tyrell turing 23:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean-up of Discipline Section

message: Shouldn't there be a criticisms section?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.66.229.33 (talk) 12:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms

message: Somehow, this article should mention this. Why is it that this title was translated to Discipline and Punish and not Monitor and Punish? Kingturtle = (talk) 17:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a lengthy translator's note at the beginning, at least in my copy, more or less apologizing for the inadequacy of the translation. Surveiller was the word chosen by Bentham's French translator for what he wrote as "inspect" ... and that word has no exact translation into English. Foucault himself apparently suggested the use of "discipline" (I'm sure that had nothing to do with his long nights at S&M bars during that time). Daniel Case (talk) 06:00, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surveiller means monitor 

message: A criticisms section could be helpful especially how Foucault self critiques his own work in a later book. Taylmatt (talk) 20:48, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism Section 

message: This article is very well-written, and it helped me better understand the argument being made by Foucault. The only critique that I recognized when reading the article was its heavy reliance on speculative data/understanding. The author/s often cite the correct passages to show what Foucault was saying, and as a laymen unfamiliar with Discipline and Punish, as well as other books written by Foucault, it gives a great glimpse into the crux of the books. However, the author/s often suggest what Foucault means, and extract exact passages from the books. As the laymen in this case, it is difficult to decipher the true meaning outside of playing "telephone". All of the citations come straight from the texts, which exemplifies that citing isn't an issue. Simply, getting to understand the full meaning of the author, Foucault. Outside of that, beautifully written. Pseymour24 (talk) 20:56, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very well-written 

message: The viewpoint on the punishment section, in comparison to the other sections, seems underrepresented. Taylmatt (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary 

message: Is there a translation of "Surveiller et punir" that equates to Crime and Punishment? I have been told that the title of Foucalt's famous work is known by that title. Should it appear on the disambiguation page? If you google search Foucalt Crime and Punishment you end up on that page.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:17, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the person who told you that was confusing this book with Dostojevsky's. The only alternative title I know of is "Birth of the Prison".·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not familiar with the work, but from a quick look at the fr.wp article (fr:Surveiller et punir), I would translate surveiller as supervise, oversee, or monitor, not discipline. Eric talk 17:44, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but this is a book that has been published in several English language editions all of which are under the title "Discipline and Punish".·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:24, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't matter how you would choose to literally translate the original French title. It matters what title was actually used for the actual English translations that actually exist. And the title of a translated work does not have to be a literal translation of its original foreign-language title, either, as Blue Is the Warmest Colour (original title La Vie d'Adèle) could tell you. Bearcat (talk) 19:09, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the info. Amusing to see a translator claim that the nuance of that verb form can't be expressed in English. The French punir can be translated into English as either punish, to punish, or punishing, depending on context; so, as is often the case, English is less ambiguous. I'm not calling for a change to the accepted English version of this book's title, but I would say that Foucault made an error if he really put forth the notion that the English translation of Surveiller et punir would be <Synonym for "punish"> and Punish. Eric talk 03:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a very silly thing to say. Especially if you haven't read the book. Discipline is a central concept in it, as is surveillance.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 05:08, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's not silly. As I mention above, I'm going by the words in the title, which do not translate to "Discipline and Punish", no matter who says they do, and no matter how long they've said it. But I don't care; I was just trying to lend some translation expertise in case it might help. Eric talk 12:13, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I havw never heard of an expert translator who would call the authors own decision to translate the title of their work in a specific way "an error" or insist that the most literal translation is necessarily the most correct. Also "discipline" is not a synonym of "punish", particularly not in the sense the book gives to the word discipline.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 13:31, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Nor have you seen me insisting that literal translations are necessarily the most correct. And discipline, used as a verb, most certainly does have among its meanings to punish, as you can see in multiple reference sources, among them Collins thesaurus and AHD. It may well be that the English title Discipline and Punish goes well with the theme of the book, but discipline is not a translation of surveiller. Eric talk 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you should make your own translation, using the principle of seeing two words as synonyms if their ranges of meaning overlap. That would be a very novel approach to literary translation. And yes you are exactly insisting that only a literal translation is correct, and in doing so you are contradicting both the professional translator and the author which is as I insist "silly" putting it mild.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:19, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha! Get back to me when you've had a few more English lessons. Then it'll be a more fair match to determine who's silly. Eric talk 22:59, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

text: To get back to the question, I could support adding to the Crime and Punishment (disambiguation) page if a translation had ever been published under that title but I can't see that it has. Incidentally it shocked me how bad the article is. Mcewan (talk) 19:21, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no basis for such a disambiguation page. And yes, the article is bad.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the page exists and it existence seems justifiable to me; its inclusion of this page would not (unless a so-named translation exists). Mcewan (talk) 19:35, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime and Punishment ? 

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thread_title:  External links modified