Talk:Mennonites/Archive 2

message: I removed the last line "In Mexico, there were about ?? Mennonites in 2003." until the necessary information is acquired.  If someone can find the correct number, then by all means feel free to add it back in.  --Thisisbossi 15:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mennonites in Mexico

message: It seems very thrown together, with question marks scattered throughout the information.  It would be helpful if sources were cited for the information that is given.  Some of the formatting and capitalization is questionable.  For example, in section "3.5 Conservative," there is a distinct difference between "conservative Mennonite" and "Conservative Mennonite," yet they seem to be used interchangeably.  I grew up in a Conservative Mennonite church, which also happened to be conservative.  I later attended another Conservative Mennonite church, which happened to be liberal.  The Conservative Mennonites are a distinct group.  All other uses of the term should be lowercase.
An additional problem is that it is nearly impossible to define who is Mennonite.  Giving accurate numbers is difficult.  There are a gazillion different schisms and fringe groups; Mennonites are known for their church splits.  Some of the groups listed would argue that they are not Mennonites.  Other groups not listed would argue that they should be included.  The Amish are not technically Mennonite, but more correctly Anabaptist.  Nonetheless, they are usually thrown in with Mennonites when numbers are concerned.  The lists in sections 3 and 4.3 seem like they should be combined, but even then they are incomplete.  I changed the Distribution section's numbers to those given by the Mennonite World Conference, which seemed to be what the vague (and incorrect) numbers were referring to.  I'm sure there are folks who would disagree with the MWC's categorization of things.
It would be nice to see things presented here according to a generally recognized structure.  Is there a better way to organize parts of this?  As it is, the article feels like a crazy quilt. --Zimmerdale 04:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is much about this article that would benefit by a good top to bottom edit. Go ahead a give it a try. The parts you mention are fairly new and could use improvement. Editors who are interested in this article are generally supportive and helpful in keeping the article focused and on-topic. So be bold in your edits and others here will help out. JonHarder 02:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Can this page be cleaned up?

message: Most mennonites live in Africa the article states, but that's really all the info there is about mennonites in africa, all history and current info is about europe and america. Would be cool to have some more info on how it spread in africa and in which areas it focusses. --62.251.90.73 14:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Africa

message: I know that Mennonites are living in following states: 
*Germany 
*Russia 
*Kazakhstan 
*Kyrgyzstan 
*USA 
*Canada 
*Mexico 
*Belize 
*Bolivia 
*Paraguay 
*Argentina  
*Vietnam
In wich states in the world are living Mennonites, too? In Africa they have a lot of Members, but where? Have they members in Uzbekistan or other states in Central-Asia except Kyrgyzstan? Have they members in states in Europe except Germany and Russia? In Poland? Simon Mayer.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.169.209.210 (talk • contribs) 09:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mennonites all over the world 

message: Is it really relevant to have a listing of popularly famous Mennonites on this article?  It seems like that space would be much better served by a list of influential Mennos -- theologians and the like.  Maybe include people like John Howard Yoder, Harold S. Bender, etc., as well as the more historical, too. -Mbauman 06:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Since its introduction, the list has been an annoyance to me. What is the definition of fame in this case? Was the person a member of a Mennonite congregation when they became famous? I favor deleting that whole section; the people who are interested in this sort of list can go back to editing the main list-of article. Those watching this article know that I have been reverting any attempts to expand the list. :Category:Mennonites has a growing list of articles on notable Mennonites. I would like to see them worked into the prose of paragraphs related to their work rather than trying to single out a list of "most notables." JonHarder 13:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Jon, I would concur with the deletion. It's not relevant to the topic of "Mennonite" that John Doe, who happens to be a Mennonite, is famous for balancing a watermelon atop his nose while tight-walking across Niagra Falls. If someone is famous for being a Mennonite, or leading a Mennonite organization, they may belong in the article, but otherwise they don't belong anywhere except perhaps List of Famous People Who Are Mennonites, which seems to me like a bad idea for an article. (Most "List" articles strike me that way.) ClairSamoht 14:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support replacing the "Famous Mennonite" section with a link to the List of Mennonites. If you look at the Presbyterian, Methodism and Lutherans articles, none of them have sections with lists of famous people from their denomination, they just have links to list articles. And I agree that people who are famous for being for Mennonite should be linked to as part of paragraphs describing them. mennonot 00:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Famous Mennonites" 

message: I've found a reference for the "The Mennonite church in the Netherlands (Doopsgezinde Kerk) was the first Dutch church to have a female pastor (1911), her name was Anna Zernike" sentence, but the page is in Dutch.
http://dpgwesterkwartier.groningen.org/htm/gidsje.htm says:
"Vrouwen en mannen hebben dezelde rechten en mogelijkheden in een gemeente, in 1911 is Anna Zernike als eerste doopsgezinde predikante benoemd in Bovenknijpe.", which translates to:
"Women and men have the same rights and possibilities in a community, in 1911 Anna Zernike was the first Mennonite pastor, appointed in Bovenknijpe". How would I go about referencing this? Would just adding the mentioned URL as a reference do? nield 20:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Place the URL between  …  tags right at the end of the paragraph. It will then automatically show up in the Notes section. A Dutch reference isn't ideal in an English article, but it's better than nothing. JonHarder 21:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference, but in Dutch 

message: The last line in the history section is misleading. While Luther's followers ultimately were recognized as a state church, Luther himself did not "form a state church."
"Key reformers Martin Luther and Ulrich Zwingli broke with the Catholic Church, each forming a new state church."—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.78.118 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luther and a state church 

message: There has been a sustained attempt to de-link controversial but genuine and relevant links such as [excommunication] and [shunning] in this article.  Sometimes some editors have resorted to cute tricks like calling shunning by other names such as 'social or marital avoidance' to delink these links.  However these controversial traditions form the core of Mennonite doctrine, have been used since Menno Simons founded his church and are being used by thousands and thousands of Mennonites now.  There is IMO a sustained attempt to de-link topics unflattering to Mennnonites and to link topics that are flattering to Mennonites.
The Mennonite Third Way website even goes so far as to say that no modern Mennonites practice shunning now which is a loathsome lie. This wiki article needs to reflect all modern Mennonite realities and link all related links to be credible. I see a fast one being pulled by these link criteria.Anacapa 04:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Point of View check on the use of links

message: I would like to contribute with two notes in the Mennonites article. This year (2006) I have spent more thant two month living inside the Mennonite colonies of Bolivia. I did a photographic about this topic and I think it is interesting for the readers of the article.
The first note is in "4.1 Membership/Distribution" after the sentence "... encompassing South America, Central America and the Caribbean, with 133,150 members." The note would be "Mennonites in Bolivia" and it would link to http://www.jordibusque.com/Index/Stories/MennoBolivia/MennoBolivia_01.html
The second note is in "3.3 Worship, doctrine, and tradition/Old Order" after the sentence "... school their children in Mennonite-operated schools." The note would be "Mennonite schools" and it would link to http://www.jordibusque.com/Index/Stories/Mennoschools/Mennoschools_01.html
Probably my contribution was deleted because to link my own website it is a kind of selfpromotion. I agree that to be linked is good for me but I do not sell anything in my website and in my opinion the content is quite interesting specially considering the difficulty of getting permissions to photograph this people. I am sure that to include these notes will enrich the quality of the article specially due to the important lack of information about Mennonites in southamerica.
Let me know what do you think.
Panex (talk • contribs) 12:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the pictures are very rare and I was quite impressed with the pictures of the Mennonites in Bolivia. However, I would suggest the link to the pictures would be more appropriate for the article Old Colony Mennonite, or perhaps even in the article for Russian Mennonite. A link in the Old Order section would definitely not be appropriate because these Bolivian Mennonites are not Old Order, but instead Old Colony (probably either Sommerfelder or Reinländer). Stettlerj 15:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not propose to link Old Mennonites with Mennonites in Bolivia. I propose to put a note when the article speaks about Mennonites in Southamerica: "... encompassing South America, Central America and the Caribbean, with 133,150 members." A part of this first note, I propose a second note about Mennonite schools when the article speaks about "... children in Mennonite-operated schools." Panex (talk • contribs) 00:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the pictures are excellent and that the Russian Mennonite  article is the best fit. However, it would be an order of magnitude better, in my opinion, to release a select few of your photos under one of the free licenses so they could be used as regular images. As I said on your talk page, I will start a comprehensive "Mennonites of South America" article if you are willing to contribute in this way. I really hope you will consider it! JonHarder 01:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: JonHarder, I have considered your proposal about to put a few pictures under free license but I am afraid that the only Creative Commons license I would be agree to put the pictures (cc-by-nc-nd-2.5) is not allowed in wikipedia. I would like to use this license Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.5 because I try to be professional photographer so I can not allow people to use my pictures for commercial uses. I hope you will understand my position. A second thing: Why do you think that a link in Russian Mennonite will be the best fit? In Bolivia, the Mennonites came mainly from Paraguay, Mexico and Canada. You should at least go back two generations to found their Russian Mennonites origins. In my opinion it is better to put a note when the article talks about Mennonites in South America since the immediate origins of Mennonites in Bolivia are already in South America and Canada. Would be OK for you? Panex 18:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The license variations are a somewhat of a mystery to me; I'm sure you understand them better than I do! It's too bad there isn't one that will work for you. As far as the Russian Mennonite article being more appropriate, even after many generations people from that background are distinct enough that it fits as a general description. Again, Stettlerj's suggestion of Old Colony Mennonite is right on (I assume these are Old Colony), but there is no such article yet. I expect that there will be one within a year as I work through expanding the Russian Mennonite content. Until then, I think Russian Mennonite is the best fit. JonHarder talk 22:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you really think that Russian Mennonites is a good fit for the Bolivian ones (they are Old Colony) I have no problem, lets put it. My initial idea was (and still is) to put a clickable note (not in external links but in notes) when the Mennonite article talks about South America in the same way that there is a clickable note about Mennonites in Canada when the article talks about North America. I can not see difference between both cases. If you do, please could you explain it to me? Apart from that, I know there is a PhD of Univ. Wisconsin-Madison named Kimberly Miller who did a one-year stay in Bolivia studying the Colonies. I'm trying to contact her in order to know if there is some of her work in the net because it would be very interesting also. Panex 22:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The inline citations are used either as [foot]notes or references that are associated with a sentence or paragraph. The external links are for sites that are more general in nature. I don't have an opinion about which is better in this particular case. If I interpret Stettlerj's comment correctly, there is no objection to placing the links in the Russian Mennonite article. At this point, you can go ahead and do that and it shouldn't be necessary to discuss it separately on that article's talk page. Just include a reference to Talk::Mennonite in your edit summary. As for the recent research, it would be great to have a source as a basis for starting to work on "Mennonites of South America." JonHarder talk 01:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, it is done. In the first part of my previous comment I was speaking about the general "Mennonite" article. That's because there is a note to Mennonites in Canada when the article talks about North America and I would like do the same when the article talks about South America with references to the Kimberly Miller's work and to the photographic work. I agree that her work will be very usefull to start with the "Mennonites in South America". Also I would like to introduce the work of another photographer named Larry Towell (from Magnum agency) who is working on that for the last ten years in Mexican Colonies. Sure his work will be interesting for the "Mennonites in South America" article. (Panex 16:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mennonites in Bolivia