Talk:Sparta/Archive 1

message: Should add the category of "Defunct constitutions | Ancient Greek law", since much of it consists of discussion of the Lycurgan Constitution, which deserves to be included with other articles in that category. I don't know how to add categories, so perhaps someone can who knows how. --Jon Roland 16:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: I think that all the ancient history and stuff should be all be moved to its own article titled Lacedæmonia.  That way things are seperate.  Lacedæmonia was the ancient name and most people called it that way.  How about a consensus for this? WHEELER 00:25, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like a good idea to me. Aggelophoros 05:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename

message: I believe the article incorrectly states that Athens did not rise after Sparta.  Athens was THE superpower, then Sparta's power increased.  Finally the 2 powers met in the 27 year long Peloponnesian wars, of which Sparta was the victor.  Following their success, Athens was subjugated by Sparta.  Afew years later Athens regained their freedom, however it was mainly Thebes who ultimately brought down the Spartan leadership over Greece, under the command of Epaminondas.  So I was about to correct this error, but figured I would verify with you other editors.
134.210.195.109 01:26, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Athens did not rise after Sparta 

message: Most of the historical stuff in this article needs to be eliminated and instead included in History of Sparta. Sooner the better. Alexander 007 06:32, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean-Up 

message: i created this article when i was in year 12 for an assignment, it cannot be inside the encyclopedia as it is not biased nor make no conclusions, but it is a very good look at how each seem simila
User:Whatsup_will
--Whatsup will 02:24, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  sparta and nazi germany article 

message: First, women (or so I heard) held 40% the land, whence the greater freedom & political power. 2d, (as far as I saw) the article said nothing to the reasons for Sparta's decline. I'd answer that but, having written a university paper on it (N to brag), it might fall into original research. (Unless I missed somebody else finding it, which wouldn't surprise me.) Any theories extant? (I'll pick the one I agreed with...?) Also, I've heard a Spartan M not KIA, or F who didn't die in childbirth, didn't get a name on a tombstone...  Trekphiler 05:07, 19 December 2005 & 08:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spartan Facts 

message: The only information it has regarding military life is that Spartans entered military service at 20 years of age.  Don't you think it merits more information considering that Sparta is one of the most well-known military states in history? Soldiers were required to be extremely proficient with weapons ranging from daggers to spears to even their own shields.  Mothers reminded their sons to "come back with your shield, or on it".  I'm not very knowledgeable on the details, but I believe Trekphiler or some others might be able to enlighten us a little further on the details of a Spartan soldier's life. Derryl C 00:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't go into that much detail on their training. I do know they were segregated from women at an early age, lived in a kind of barracks, & (@first, anyhow) had to be landowners. That changed as more & more helots were used, & given citizenship for service, which contributed to Sparta's fall...  Trekphiler 23:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military Life 

message: The article is confussing bewteen Spart and mordern sparta.  I suggest we put modern sparta in it's article--Scott3 04:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs a clean-up 

message: I have spotted numerous factual errors in this article. I'm not really up to re-writing some sections of this article but I can give you some various things to include in a re-write.
1.) It should be mentioned that at around the age of 18 young men would officially proclaim a male 'partner' of sorts in the army. The most obvious reason for doing this was the fact that this would increase the comradiery between soldiers, and if there are 2 soldiers fighting for eachother (for their love) on the battlefield, well thats a major morale booster..
2.) At the age of 7 the young men were sent to a barracks of sorts. It should also be understood that they will spend their ENTIRE time here up to the age of 30.
3.) At the age of 12 they were NOT just simply set out into the wilderness. They still remained in the barracks, but a few things were changed -
*Harsher treatment, less food
*They went to a 'graduation' ceremony of sorts to prove their ability to take large amounts of pain. This test was primarily a heavy amount of whipping. If they cried, they would fail the test, if not, they would procede.
*The 'older male lovers' would officially pair up with the boys.
4.) I really can't emphasize the fact enough that the Spartan society was in, for lack of a better word, /very/ gay oriented. For most men, they will spend their first 30 years of life in some sort of homosexual relationship. And men that did not do this, were viewed as outcasts. Homosexuality was not the 'thing' most monotheistic religions have made it today... But regardless of that, it should be known that the Spartan's society and daily life was centered around homosexuality. (I gave one brief explanation as to why this was a benefit in my first point.)
Note, I am by no means a primary source on this topic, but I can pull out numerous text books of mine, and cite many primary sources for this information. I just hope that someone will take this information into account and re-write a few sections. Many of the current information in this article is taken from sources that have been 'cleaned' up, if you know what I mean. (A common flaw in many history textbooks)Mchart 03:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did. Video games and teenage computer sub-culture is out of the scope of this article. Miskin 11:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many factual errors in this article. 

message: Is it just me, or is the spartan shield both irrelevant and corny as the picture where the seal of the city would be, anything would be better than that corny shield that has nothing to do with the city of sparta. I know Sparta is a small insignificant city nowadays but it deserves better than that!
:I agree 194.80.178.1 02:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spartan Shield 

message: The political and military structure of classical Sparta was more complex than is reflected here. No where, for instance, is it mentioned that it was a military aristocracy with a quite small corps of Spartiates at its core, and it is actually only to these that the article as written applies. Any discussion of the ultimate downfall of Sparta needs to include the issue of the final disappearance of the Spartiate class, particularly subsequent to the disasters at Sphakteria and Leukra. 195.145.211.193 13:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spartans / Spartiates 

message: Despite modern conceptions, homosexuality in Greece was only contained to a few select city-states. Unless you have read any work by Plato, who discribes the proper customs in seducing young boys. Yet one cannot deny that the 'moral lines' of sexuality were less defined in ancient times as they are now.
This is wiki filth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.45.168.167 (talk) 09:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  crap writing 

message: See my older, previous post about this issue. While it is nice to see a section on spartan sexuality finally in here. It curiously is missing the major points I pointed out in my older post. If someone has the time, please make such revisions. You can e-mail me / PM if you would like sources to cite. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mchart (talk • contribs) 05:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article -STILL- in need of major revision 

message: It is not clear why this material, which is brief, historical and properly cited was removed. It is common practice in Wikipedia to briefly touch upon a relevant topic which is treated in depth elsewhere. I refer you to United States#Sports for an example. To talk about Sparta without mentioning in passing the customs for which they were famous (and which the remaining text salaciously hints at) is like discussing the US without mentioning football. Incomplete. Haiduc 12:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand why this stuff needs to be mentioned in every article about ancient Greece? Most of what I removed was reworded from Spartan Pederasty except that it included some ridiculously POV remarks such as "Spartans thought that this would make them tougher" etc. I mean this is already treated in at least 5 articles already, but it appears that Haiduc wants to see it _everywhere_. Some days ago he even pasted a paragraph in the olive oil article, about how Spartans used it to "eroticize the body". The way I see it, the respective articles are linked at the bottom, therefore there's no need be so repetive about information which doesn't even fit into context most of the time. Miskin 11:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miskin's argument is tantamount to asking why so many articles on US states mention the civil war. Why not, one can envision Miskin arguing, can't it be restricted to its own article? Pederasty was a central and essential cultural feature of Greece that colored many of its customs and institutions, education, erotics, sports, warfare, philosophy, carousing, religion, friendship, masculinity, drama, poetry, sculpture, and literature, just to name the more obvious. It also manifested differently in different poleis, of which Sparta and Crete were paramount examples, followed closely by Athens and Thebes. If one was going to expunge discussion of pederasty from articles on Greek topics, one can hardly think of a worse place to begin than the article on Sparta. On closer examination I see that many of the articles on ancient Greece discuss the topic of war. Should we also attempt to restrict discussion of that topic, since it too appears to be "mentioned in every article about ancient Greece"? Haiduc 15:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You raise some good points but the solution is not to go around eliminating mentions of Greek pederasty from articles bearing on the culture. Nor is the coverage of Greek pederasty as one-sided as you seem to believe. I just did a quick check, and I see that Plato's views in his Laws are mentioned in the general Pederasty article, again mentioned in the Pederasty in ancient Greece and of course mentioned in the Philosophy of Greek pederasty (though now I notice that in this last a fuller discussion is warranted). Aristophanes is mentioned, in Pederasty in ancient Greece. Alexander the Great's ethical stance has been extensively discussed in Alexander the Great's personal relationships. And yes, nonsense does tend to filter in (as in the "made them tougher" example) but that's what we are here for. Haiduc 16:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Good arguments all, though in the case of Sparta the preponderance of the sources (Plato, Plutarch, Aelian) seems to be on the side of universal pederasty, more or less chaste. I am sorry that you have not seen fit to apply these correctives to the articles in question, your input would have been welcomed even if at times critiqued. But if you would rather not touch this material I would be happy to integrate your ideas if you would be so kind as to provide me with references and citations. In the mean time, how do you want to handle the deletions that have prompted this exchange? Haiduc 18:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you for your comments, I look forward to your other references. As for the article, I will replace the text, making corrections as necessary. I really do appreciate your input into all this, I would not be at all surprised if at times I do pull too far in the opposite direction when correcting for modern anti-pederastic bias. As we both know, it is impossible for a writer to be completely objective about his own work - that's why authors have editors. Haiduc 20:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletions of material about wife sharing and pedagogic pederasty 

message: I just reverted an edit giving the meaning of "Sparta" as "a courageous warrior". I can't find a source; feel free to add it back if you can. Tadpole9(talk•contribs) 23:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of "Sparta" 

message: In the UK, in 2003, a 3-part documentary was broadcast which talked about, amongst other things, the sexual politics of Sparta. The Wiki article just happens to have been written by me. There's a Channel 4 webpage, containing transcripts of the documentary here.
The section entitled The battle for supremacy here contains information on the sexual subjects so many Wiki editors find distasteful and/or frightening. Look in particular at the sections headed The land of beautiful women, Spartan 'thigh-flashers', and Marriage by capture.
Well, Bettany Hughes is a source, isn't she? Yes. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 02:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "upsetting" stuff. 

message: I've changed "Sparta had the most powerful army" to "Sparta had one of the most powerful armies", since it is a matter of opinion. DurotarLord 21:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm. The Peloponnesian War is in its last stages. A Spartan army, with unfriendly looks on their faces, are about to storm into Athens. Two old Athenians are talking. "Don't be concerned", says one. "They're only one of the most powerful armies in Greece - NOT the most powerful. It is a matter of opinion.". "Oh, great", his companion says. "For a moment I was worried". Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 23:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Powerful army"

message: The following:
Spartan women were respected and played an important role in society, a rare case for the standards of antiquity. Bisexual relations were commonplace among Spartan women, and it was considered acceptable for married women to have affairs with unmarried girls in their prime. Some scholars assume that this custom paralleled the mentoring relations between Spartan males and adolescent boys, common in Dorian societies. 
conflicts with:
Xenophon affirms that Lycurgus efficiently managed to keep pederasty out of the Spartan society"Athens and Sparta" by Anton Powell (p. 228). Aristotle was of the opinion that Sparta belonged to the type of military society that was based on heterosexual relationship, unlike some other Greek states of antiquity.
It also conflicts with the article Spartan pederasty. FilipeS 22:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It all depends on how the ancient sources - and we - define the term "pederasty". There was argument then, as there obviously is now, as to whether or not the Spartan's practiced "outrage", ie anal sex, or indulged in a more "chaste" relationship. There is a lot of confusion and hangups based on this, perhaps for reasons Freud would have understood. It won't end anytime soon. In the meantime, I'm going to remove the latter quote, above, from the article, thus alleviating the contradiction - for now. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 22:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: ? ..... Rewrite it how?! It contradicted the paragraph next to it. It contradicted it so blatantly that you felt the need to comment on the talkpage about it! Don't worry about it, though. It'll be back soon, or something very closely resembling it will. So many people get so upset at the thought of "the ultimate warriors" being bi or homo-sexual. Unbelievable. I'm hetero myself, and I have no problems with the thought. Oh well. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 23:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hybris and pederasty are two different things - the Spartans could have been, and were by most accounts, pederasts without turning the boys into europroktoi. Haiduc 23:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I stand corrected, as they say. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 23:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradiction