Talk:List of transgender people/Archive 1

message: :In fact the whole article is a bit of a nonsense in its use of vocabulary. The words 'woman' (and 'man') are used throughout - presumably to mean someone who was born as a woman (or man) unless the context requires otherwise - yet exception was taken when the word woman was used of Julie Hesmondhalgh. The list, in general, does not tell you in what way any individual was transgendered, so why argue particularly for just one character? 
::Excuse me? Have you read the article? "Woman" is used several times to describe transwomen, in other words, women who were not born with the body to match. Same with man. Where "woman" is used to describe the physical sex, it is clear from the context. (As in Billy Tipton, woman who lived as a male jazz musician). So obviously, it is necessary to state that in this case a cisgender woman is meant. Not to mention that calling somebody "cisgendered" is hardly a way to describe how that person is transgendered. The two are mutually exclusive, and there is only one way to be cisgendered. Either you are or you are not. Sorry, but your constant removal, each time with a new non-argument, starts to resemble vandalism. -- AlexR 18:55, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Some people use transgender as a catch-all term for crossing of gender boundaries. Some people use transgender to specifically refer to be people between genders. Thus the term has two meanings. Neither meaning is "incorrect".
This is pure garbage. Just because "some people" misuse a term, that does not give their misuse legitimacy. That is rampant "Humpty-Dumptyism," where words mean whatever the speaker idiosyncratically decides they mean.
Conflating transsexuals, transvestites, hermaphrodites, homosexuals (not specified, but listed), mixing them together and adding in people wearing disguises or costumes, does a real disservice. This article should be replaced with a disambiguation page pointing to the individual category lists. Thank you.
B00P 09:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

message: Was Gwen Araujo TS? Of course that depends on one's definition of TS...
How on earth did Kate Bornstein stay off this page for so long? :)
*Gwen Araujo was a pre-op TS at the time she was murdered.Rickyrab 03:52, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Gwen Araujo

message: Source for Sara Davis Buechner: http://www.tgguide.com/soapbox/news/042.htm
Tualha 06:23, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)
Anyone know if Roberta Cowell is still alive? Can't find much about her on the web. -- Tualha 15:58, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: var

message: Are Achilles and Heracles really "transgendered"? Achilles, at least, was only disguising himself to get out of the Trojan War. It's not like he did it as a lifestyle choice, and I don't think you can say is "known" for that. Adam Bishop 03:34, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe there should be a separate list of people who cross-dressed temporarily, or for reasons of disguise (however, I agree with the above comments that classification may be tricky). Bonnie Prince Charlie would be another name to add to such a list. --David Edgar 07:53, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think these people who clearly did so only for a limited time and for a definite purpose, which has nothing to do with transgender, should at least get a seperate heading. It should also be mentioned that it is a rather common behaviour, including many many women who cross-dress in times of war, often to escape rape. Of course, we have few names here and there are not all that many famous people among them, either. But nevertheless, it happened (and still happens).  Maybe a list of historical people would not be a bad idea, because for historical people one always needs a warning; compare Talk:Elagabalus. -- AlexR 13:20, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Achilles and Heracles ''and'' again, seperate lists

message: Alexis Arquette should probably be in the list, as she has announced plans for a complete gender reassignment (not to mention intending to film the whole process for a documentary). DanaJohnson 02:37, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Alexis Arquette

message: The article:''
:Transgender, for the purposes of this article, is an umbrella term that can include transsexuals, transvestic fetishists, cross-dressers, intersexuals, drag queens, drag kings and others.
:Hatshepsut, female Pharaoh of Egypt who wore male clothing and even a false beard''
Hatshepsut fits none of those definitions (except possibly other) so therefore to say she was a Transgender is untrue. Hatshepsut wore males clothing for the mere fact that it was a uniform. Now some historians (I'm thinking Gardner here) do say she was a transvestite, but he is heavily biased against Hatshepsut (and says her being one as a bad thing).
If you are going to count every person who wore a uniform people wore in their profession, I would like to see every single notable actor (especially from Shakespears time) on the list due to the fact that in plays men had to dress up as women. Which I think, to do so, would be ridiculous. Hatshepsut was 100% female, she didn't consider herself male. It's just Pharaohs were traditionally male, so she had to wear their clothing to be a pharaoh.
:I agree in this case, as far as I know, there is no reasonable evidence that Hatshepsut was in any way transgendered. If one considers her doning ceremonial beards as cross-dressing (which is stretching the definition a bit) than it is clearly a cross-dressing out of necessity, and, as far as I know, it was the sole "male" item she wore. So indeed, she should be removed, unless somebody else has other, substantiated information.
: BTW, if she went with the fasion of the time, did she have any hair to cut short in the first place? --AlexR 13:33, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question Alex (about the hair thing) and I have no idea actually. I removed Hatshepsut from the list (I really felt she didn't belong). However there is a comment about it here and if people feel she should be added back I definitely don't mind discussing it. If a "controversial transgenders" section is created (a list of people who some believe they were a transgender while others don't) she should definitely be added then.--John Lynch 13:10, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Hatshepsut

message: Is there any evidence to support this claim? Suggestion that he was or is a cross dresser is potentially offending for Catholics and Christians in general and should be therefore backed by evidence or removed.
: Depends how you look at it. The legend of "Pope Joan" certainly exists, and has existed for a very long time. (It would be a cross-dressing "she", though, not a "he", at least physically speaking.) There is not proof for hir actual existance, though, but that is already stated. I can not see what could be possibly offending by simply telling people that this legend exists, because it definitely did since the 15th century, and there was a bestseller book about hir a few years ago. So s/he is definitely worth mentioning. -- AlexR 22:16, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for raising that issue – I misread the page and thought it is a claim about the current Pope, John Paul II. AndyBrandt 23:28, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Dead trannies are unoffensive? Hyacinth 18:25, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: And what is your point? The info we are arguing about is irrelevant - the transsexual is the character, why comment at all about the actress, let alone use irregularly formed neologisms to describe her? Nor do I accept that a list of transgendered people will only be read (or should only be read) by people who are 'in' with transsexual jargon, or who want to know a lot about transgender issues - I came to this page by accident, for instance, and as Hyacinth noted, people come to encyclopaedias to learn what they do not know. As a compromise, I wouldn't revert if you added 'played by Julie Hesmondhalgh, and then anyone interested in her could find out about her. Finally, I note that there are (quite properly) links to lists of transgendered issues at the bottom, so those who are interested in them can find out more there. jguk 05:05, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Pope John II

message: Did Brandon Teena consider himself 'transsexual'? Or 'transgender'? Was his stated position ever really that clear before he was murdered? And by whose account?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by CKF1997 (talk • contribs) 01:48, 3 October 2005  (UTC)
:I do not know whether he ever did state anything of the kind, although I am fairly certain of it. However, given the circumstances of his life, we can at least assume that he was transgender. Whether he considered himself transsexual I cannot tell, but given that transsexual is just a sub-definition of transgender, it hardly matters. -- AlexR 19:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Brandon Teena

message: We have been having a small debate at the Leslie Cochran page, and I thought some people on this talk page might have more experience with the issues at hand. What pronouns are typically used in articles for transgendered people- their birth/physical gender, or their preferred one? Or is this just a highly individual decision? Thanks in advance for your help. EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 07:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronouns 

message: The inclusion of Anna Madrigal gives away a major plot detail that is not revealed until well in to the story, and is part of a puzzle unfolding. It's a trashy series of books, but still, coming across this information would spoil the experience of reading it to some extent (especially the revelation of the anagram). I suggest she is removed from the list. If she is kept, at least the "mrs." should be removed from her name (no one else has a title!). ntennis 00:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler - Tales of the City 

message: I understand that this has been repeatedly raised before, but nothing seems to have been done about it.
This article, as written, is a complete farce. Worse than being useless, it might be construed as "disinformation." By lumping together a half dozen different catagories under one name, it promotes confusion and renders the term "transgendered" meaningless. It is a random list of people who have, for various time periods, and for quite disparate reasons, behaved in some manner that, in our time and culture, is more usually associated with the other sex. 
This list is an inane mish-mash.
*Thor once wore women's clothes as a disguise.
*Milton Berle got into drag to get laughs.
*James Barry petended to be a man for job opportunities.
*Ed Wood was a transvestite.
*Harvey Fierstein is a homosexual.
*Christine Jorgensen was a transsexual.
It is ridiculous to even list the first two. One wonders how Jeanne D'Arc escaped notice. Perhaps she will soon appear. After all, she didn't go into battle wearing a frilly dress and riding sidesaddle. Had this been written 75 years ago, would any woman who ever wore slacks have made the list? 
In an earlier exchange Martin wrote,
:Some people use transgender as a catch-all term for crossing of gender boundaries. Some people use transgender to specifically refer to be people between genders. Thus the term has two meanings. Neither meaning is "incorrect".
This is pure garbage. Just because "some people" misuse a term, that does not give their misuse legitimacy. That is rampant "Humpty-Dumptyism," where words mean whatever the speaker idiosyncratically decides they mean.
Conflating transsexuals, transvestites, hermaphrodites, homosexuals (not specified, but listed), mixing them together and adding in people wearing disguises or costumes, does a real disservice. This article should be replaced with a disambiguation page pointing to the individual category lists. Thank you.
B00P 09:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disinformation 

message: When I moved stuff (doesn't the page look clean now ;-) I found somebody had mentioned that "transgender" vs. "transgendered" sometime in 2004. (" When we say "People who have been transgendered", who "transgendered" them? Ortolan88") I'd like to bring this up again; I personally think that this article should be a List of transgender people, without the obnoxious "-ed" at the end. Transgender was coined as an adjective, and I don't really think we say "homosexualed", or "lesbianed" or even "transsexualed", either.  -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article and List of transgender people had merge tags on them (and had for a while), directing toward this article, so I merged them a few weeks ago.  This article was, far and away, the more complete of the two; there was very little actual merging that I had to do.  I guess I probably should have merged/redirected the other way, huh?  Personally, to have the -ed or not, it doesn't make any difference to me, but then I apparently don't take quite as hard a line WRT terminology as it seems a lot of transpeople do. — Wwagner 17:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's "WRT"? And what does my question have to do with the fact that I am transgender? I merely suggest putting the article under a title I think is a lot better, for the reason stated. That was no criticism of your action or anything, I don't think I ever saw the List of transgender people at all. -- 18:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My comment was not meant as any kind of attack.  I'm not out to get the trans community or anybody in it - I'm trans too.  But to return to the name change topic, I guess put me down for an abstain due to no preference.  Oh, and WRT is "with respect to". — Wwagner 21:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We really need to work on our communication - neither was I intending to insult or attack (or anything) you, nor you me. Which is kinda nice ;-) I also don't really take a hard line here, if I would, I would have moved the article. Guess we need a few more votes then ;-) -- AlexR 23:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I've heard this objection to transgendered before; I say go ahead and move the page, as it seems you are not the only one bothered by it. However, personally I don't have any problem with the -ed, and think the "lesbianed' analogy is a wilful misreading of English grammar. "-ed" can serve a few different gramatical funcitons, one of which is simple past tense for a verb, as in "who transgendered them?", which relies on an understanding of "to transgender" as a verb, and therefore "transgendered" as a past participle. I believe people see "to transgender" as a verb about as readily as they see "to lesbian" as one — i.e. not very much. A better analogy is "the brown-haired woman"; do we ask "who brown-haired her"? A "brown-hair woman" is considered non-standard. Some compound adjectives have multiple standard forms: eg "a v-neck jumper" or "v-necked jumper". The same can be said for "an intersex/intersexed/intersexual person", and (I propose) a transgender/transgendered person. Google finds 106,000 hits for "transgendered person" and 78,400 for "transgender person"; interestingly, the ratio is reversed for "transgender people" (810,000) and "transgendered people" (444,000). ntennis 03:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Move this article

message: Is there a source about this person? I can't find anything about him/her on Google. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 21:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dana Moran 

message: I will only say that I find it an excessively slender thread that connects Queen Christina in any shape or form to our modern concept of transgendered people. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 13:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Queen Christina? 

message: oops, ignore me. I apparantly was wrong about my terminology. Reverting myself. Kuronue 01:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  my edits 

message: Do we really need this category? Lwollert 01:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looked like vandalism, so I reverted it.  Somebody who doesn't like Nickelback's lead singer, I guess. — Wwagner 01:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Living Musicians? 

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
* Support  - Appropriate simplification and goes according to WP:NAME Cheers! Lauren♫/∆ 07:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Survey 

message: There was the recent addition of Lady (group) to this list.  While they're certainly trans, and are certainly notable as a group, and each of the members would individually belong in this list (provided notability, etc.), do they belong here collectively?  My gut feeling is 'no', but I'd like to hear what others have to say about it.  Do other List of <blah> people articles have groups in them?  — Wwagner 00:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bands or groups? 

message: we should add that name to the list, it has already been confirmed, and there are a lot of reliable soucres which states that Larry wachowski is now a transsexual named Linda Wachowski.
Can I add the name to the list? check my youtube´s videos!!!!!!!!!!! just put raidentheninja on the search bar on youtube 04:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Until it's confirmed by Wachowski, it is not appropriate. As far as i can see from a fairly basic Search it's still rumors and gossip - and has been since 2003. Cheers! Lauren♫/∆ 07:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: i though it was already confirmed, lol, maybe i´ll have to search more.
anyway, i´ll stay alert about wachowski and look for more info, ok? :-)check my youtube´s videos!!!!!!!!!!! just put raidentheninja on the search bar on youtube 23:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Found something http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachowsky#Transgender_claims
We should add her i think—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.192.3.133 (talk) 00:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a valid source for citation.  Furthermore, all the external articles linked from Wachowski brothers involving Larry's supposed transition are collections of hearsay and speculation.  Until we see some sort of press release, or Wachowski posting something hirself, it's not appropriate. — Wwagner 05:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Larry (Linda) Wachowski is not in the list 

message: Wow. Last I checked this list it was awful - it looks great now. Does anyone object if we convert this to table format and put pictures down the side per the LGB lists? And has anyone gone through our transgendered categories and added all the people there? DevAlt 14:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't say that I'm terribly excited by the layout of the rest of the LGB lists of people.  They seem awfully busy and cluttered to my eye.  I am a big proponent of the KISS principle.  And I don't think anybody's gone through all (any?) the trans cats for possible additions.  Sounds like a job I can do in my copious spare time. :) — Wwagner 23:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

text: And Jeanne Baré. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Added Amesbury and Baré.  Can't find a source for Araujo. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tables 

message: There has been a few years of back and forth at Talk:Princess Ozma as to whether Ozma actually qualifies as transgender, because she changes sex but does not seem to ever have transgender identity.  Currently this page is inconsistent with Princess Ozma, with one person consistently reverting :Category:Fictional LGBT characters -- either this page or that one should change.  This could affect other fictional characters such as Ranma Saotome, although he has somewhat different issues.  I am hoping to establish consensus on this one way or another at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Is_Princess_Ozma_LGBT?  Please join the discussion there, since it would be nice to develop a policy on classifying fictional characters.  -- Kevin Saff (talk) 00:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does Ozma belong? 

message: Courtney Act is a stage name of a performer by the name of Shane Jenek. He is a gay man who is a drag queen and a performer and by having his "Drag" name on here weakens issues for Transgendered people, most of who would (probably) like to lead rather normal lives rather than appear as an over the top drag queen. Please edit this if possible.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.94.195 (talk) 16:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Courtney Act is a drag performer, not a Transgendered person.  

message: Barry Humphries is not transgender/transexual -- he is a comedian, one of whose characters is the fictitious Dame Edna -- this does not mean he is transgender. Propose to delete him from this list. --ukexpat 14:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose.  We do include crossdressers and drag queens on this list, and I'd say that doing comedy in drag is close enough to doing cabaret performances in drag as makes no real difference - they're performace arts, while crossdressed.  Similarly, Flip Wilson's Geraldine Jones persona is in this list, though in the film and tv section. — Wwagner 17:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK so in that case the list should include every single male comedian or actor who has performed in a female role, including all the Monty Python team, Ronnie Barker, Ronnie Corbett, Les Dawson and countless others.--ukexpat 20:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Crossdressing and drag are within the umbrella term transgender. You appear to be confusing transgender and transsexual. The latter are also within the umbrella of the term transgender. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 04:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barry Humphries 

message: Please note that this list should not contain drag performers or transvestites as there is a major difference between drag and transgenderism; that being that drag performers and transvestites do not consistently identify themselves as the gender opposite of their chromosomes as transgendered people do.
:I agree.  This issue has been discussed several times on this talk page, but never resolved.  Yes, "transgender" is an umbrella term, but I think the scope of this list should be limited to people who live their lives as the opposite gender to how they were born.  To include drag of various degrees (from situational like John Cleese to integral like Eddie Izzard) is a long path that will result in this list becoming very long - and it also deprives those who live as another gender fair recognition as having unique identity.  However, I am against the use of "transsexual" because it implies someone who has completed SRS; I think "transgender" is perfectly suitable, with the understanding that drag/transvestite persons belong on their own list. -Etoile (talk) 22:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Transgender versus drag and transvest

message: I saw that somebody had replaced a lot of "transsexual", "transwoman", "transmen" with "transgendered". It already is reverted, but reminded me whether we are really certain, in all cases where "transsexual" is used, whether "transsexual" is really the correct description (might concern other descriptions as well). I noticed for example: 
* Kate Bornstein, transsexual/gendered author, playwright, performance artist and gender theorist
**Given that on Kate's site she uses gender-neutral pronouns for hirself, I think it is fairly safe to say that "transsexual" is plainly wrong
* Mara Keisling, transsexual/gendered, founder of the National Center for Transgender Equality. Key leader in passing several laws protecting transgender people. www.nctequality.org
** The website mentioned says: "Mara is a transgender-identified woman"  
So while changing "transwoman" and "transmen" to "transgendered" hardly did the article any service, some of the changes to "transgender" (forget that obnoxious -ed) seemed to have been correct. I suspect some more of the "transsexual" attributions are not quite correct, either. So I suggest we check out those again.  -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Transsexuals are referred to as transgender because, as the transgender article explains, it is an umbrella term that includes transsexuals. I personally know quite a few transsexuals including some who are 20+ years post op. Not one of them objects to the term transgender. If there is a region-specific alternate definition of transgender that specifically excludes transsexuals, please provide a reliable reference for that alternate definition at talk:transgender so that article can be altered to include it. Articles such as this one would then inevitably change to acknowledge that alternate definition. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 13:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Transgender vs. transsexual and others

message: Please add Adam/Madeleine Blaustein, the voice actor/ress in Pokémon. RocketMaster (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maddie Blaustein was added a while back.  I've added Amanda Simpson, with ref.  Feel free to add items, idaadara, but make sure they have references :)  You may also want to take a gander at WP:LGBT?  Welcome! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 23:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add one more... 

message: Just a procedural question: should a person have a Wikipedia article before they are added to this list? It seems reasonable to me that if a person it not notable enough to merit an article, they are not notable enough to merit inclusion in this list. Thoughts? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if there's a guideline someplace on WP for this situation, but I have this feeling people are added to the list, with a passing reference, and they have no notability otherwise.  I'd be in favor of removing redlinks - maybe with a caveat that a redlink with more than one RS available could stay.  Just my opinion :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That it my thought too, with the modification that if two references are available, then there probably should be an article, which solves the problem. This question came to mind with the recent edits to the list. Thanks for the input. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 17:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that 2 good references, showing both notability and transgender status, are probably enough. i think the standard is "if there is a reasonable likelihood that an article could be written". of course, the name doesnt need to be redlinked, just needs the refs and can stay as regular text if it looks better. And on this note, would Victoria Kolakowski qualify for inclusion on this list? she is already of some small notability, and won the primary in june in california to be the democratic candidate for alameda county superior court judge. She is likely to win the position, but is she notable enough now?Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

text: Few, if any of those sources count as reliable on Wikipedia. However, Victoria Kolakowski could be added now. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red links 

message: An edit caught my eye, so I went through and removed a number of entries with redlinks, based on previous consensus that inclusion on this list requires sufficient notability for there to be an article for that person. I noticed several people on the list who have no link: the names appear in unmarked-up text. Some have references, some do not. I'm inclined to treat the nolinks the same as the redlinks: if the person is not sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article, they are not sufficiently notable for getting listed. Feedback? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 05:43, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redlinks redux 

message: I have gone through and removed a couple of people who did not have articles linked to them. My reasoning is simple: this list is intended to list notable people who are transgendered, not just anyone who is transgendered. If a person is sufficiently notable to merit a Wikipedia article, with sufficient reliable, third-party sources to substantiate both the notability and transgendered identity of the person, then please write the article first before adding the person back in.
Later today or tomorrow, I will be going through and either adding at least one supporting reference as required by the article's guidelines, or removing the entry. Thank you for your understanding. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 21:00, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup, December 2012 

message: This discussion may be of interest to readers of this talk page. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Article titles for transgendered people

message: What on earth does "transgender in behavior" mean? Tombomp (talk/contribs) 15:35, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "transgender in identity or behavior. " 

message: Can I ask why Herculine Barbin is listed here as a transgender person? Her birth assigned sex is consistently referenced, as she was reassigned male involuntarily and she later took her own life. Under similar circumstances we don't reference Alan Turing as an ex-gay. Trankuility (talk) 02:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing, on the same basis as the removal of David Reimer, per earlier discussion on talk page. Trankuility (talk) 23:53, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Herculine Barbin]] 

message: It would be nice to include at least the year that the subject came out as transgender.  Skyerise (talk) 19:22, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of transition 

message: Izzard is not on the list, yet he is in LGBT categories due to his crossdressing. He often performs stand-up comedy in drag, as himself. That is different to the comedians named in the section above who only play(ed) female characters, plus many male characters which do not require crossdressing. Werdnawerdna (talk) 12:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As the lead to this article now correctly states, drag performers / crossdressers are not considered transgender.--greenrd (talk) 16:05, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Eddie Izzard

message: Someone can be transgender without being transsexual. While Jenner has not completely transformed, Jenner is, nonetheless, transgender.  —  Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 01:11, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding is the gender/sex distinction is frowned upon by trans people (except those who have been labelled by others in the trans community as "truescum", who believe that only people who have undergone genital reassignment surgery are trans). I think it may be more politically correct to say that Jenner has not undergone genital reassignment surgery, if that fact needs to be referred to at all. (Or, at the time you wrote your comment, that she had not yet undergone or completed transition, as you pretty much did say).--greenrd (talk) 16:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Bruce Jenner 

message: By the same principal, will it also be necessary to create List of cisgender people? Sersan Mayor Kururu (talk) 18:09, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Is anyone notable for being cisgender? EvergreenFir (talk) Please  18:56, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on List of transgender people. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080414192006/http://www.avn.com:80/video/articles/19222.html to http://avn.com/video/articles/19222.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150715023217/http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/content/fileadmin/oldsite/2004/07/22/cal_feature.html to http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/content/fileadmin/oldsite/2004/07/22/cal_feature.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article Charles Butler (author) does not seem to describe him as transgender, and the reference given is a dead link. Shouldn't he be removed from the list? --rossb (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be reasonable. Good job catching that! TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:18, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charles Butler 

message: Maxine Feldman is clearly identified as transgender in his death announcement at http://providence.edgemedianetwork.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=36268  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowhare (talk • contribs) 02:28, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, got that one wrong: sorry. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 04:02, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maxine Feldman 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hedwig from Hedwig and the Angry Inch is not transgender. It's stated in the plot that the only reason she (as someone who dresses in drag, she is acceptable) undergoes the surgery is to marry Luther. She is a gay man forced to undergo surgery, not an actual trans person.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.162.81.74 (talk) 16:33, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hedwig is not Transgender 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of transgender people. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/03/18/bunten/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150703205803/http://www.astraeafoundation.org/news/344/60/Introducing-the-Intersex-Fund-team-at-Astraea to http://www.astraeafoundation.org/news/344/60/Introducing-the-Intersex-Fund-team-at-Astraea
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20010502142203/http://www.transyhouse.org/Marsha.htm to http://www.transyhouse.org/Marsha.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This list says it is of people who identify as transgender. What about the many people who never identified as transgender (because they didn't discuss it or because that term hadn't been invented yet) but lived as a gender different from the one assigned to them at birth. Should they be included?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 李艾连 (talk • contribs) 08:11, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Complicated, and no general solution is available. Consult the individual article for the person concerned, and see how it is handled there. Mathglot (talk) 10:07, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  People who do not identify as transgender but are? 

message: In my opinion the title "List of transgender people" sounds like there are only a few transgender people in the whole world, who will now be listet. That's why I'd propose to change it to "List of famous transgender people". 
I don't really know, how to change it or who to contact with the proposition, so I'm posting it here. ;)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.90.26.54 (talk) 01:38, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposition to change the title 

message: Reasonable people - including those of us currently called "transgender" - can and will disagree about this.  I don't think there is a clear answer that will satisfy anyone: such is the nature of being labelled "transgender" these days.  One point of view - my own - is that the label itself can be a problem, as we use the label to identify people who in some life-affecting way do not or cannot live the expected cultural role of the gender assigned by birth.  When I stumbled on this page, a specific listing of individuals, my gut reaction was horror: "why not just paint a target on our back"; followed by righteous indignation: "I don't see a List of Cisgender People".
I am a bit surprised to not find any discussion of the basic usefulness or legitimacy of such a list on Wikipedia.  Again, I know very well that people of good will can have quite different opinions - my own have changed over time, as I go through life being relabeled each decade: currently, "transgender".  The language and general attitudes are evolving quickly, 15 years ago I was a "transsexual"; 30 years ago I was a "freak"; 40 years ago I was a "criminal".
My own opinion, as one who could be on the list if I happened to be important enough to be listed anywhere, is that the title and contents are inappropriate invasions of privacy.  I do not mean to indicate that we should be ashamed or any such thing: simply that creating a list of people based on the fact that we are not cisgender stikes me as a reinforcement of the arbitary social standards, although that is clearly not the intent of the people who have worked on this page.
I am torn between saying "this should be discussed", and saying "let's not discuss it, because the discussion at best is unlikely to lead to any conclusion, and at worst would be far more heat than light".  
Perhaps the right question to ask is: what useful and relatively objective information is contained here?  My sense is there is no real use for this information, that the decision to put someone on the list or not is necessarily subjective due to the quickly changing landscape, and that being placed on the list can endanger the person.  Still, I hesitate to ask, knowing there are perfectly good "other" responses; and more so, knowing that concensus is unlikely, and finally, were any decision to be made, it could quickly become invalidated as the world adjusts to the idea that not everyone is cisgender.  
Again, with no disrespect to anyone who has worked on this in good faith - if we know one thing as "transgender" people, there's no universal truths on this stuff.
Tsimbler (talk) 15:20, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Fellow trans person here. I understand your concerns, but for living people, only those who are both notable and openly transgender should be included on this list, so being included here shouldn't "out" anyone or endanger them any more than coverage in mainstream media would. That being said, as public awareness (and, hopefully, acceptance) of trans folks grows and more folks openly come out as trans, this list might grow to an unmanageable size. Funcrunch (talk) 16:06, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is appropriate. Especially if folks self-add and/or folks who are proud of their gender identity / surgery, what-have-you. Plus-one +1 to keep this Category. From Peter aka Vid2vid (talk) 03:50, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  It such a list appropriate? 

message: * Hi All, at the Wiki page called sex change, I was surprised the External Links did not have a page about notable, celebrities, actors, etc who are {surgically} transgender.. Suggestion to [1] add that there, and also [2] a Category called, "List of transgender celebrities," and [3] also to add a sub-section to this very (incomplete) page of "List of transgender people" called "Celebrities." Does anyone agree or have good debate fodder about these three ideas? Peace. From Peter aka Vid2vid (talk) 03:49, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for the late response, but I don't think that having a list of notable people who have had MtF or FtM SRS would be productive, as many people specifically don't talk about genitals, sourcing such a page would be hard. EnviousDemon (talk) 23:31, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion: Sub-Section for Celebrities vs Non? 

message: Much like the first section on this Talk Page, I propose that the title of the page be changed to either List of notable transgender people or List of famous transgender people as the concept of a List of transgender people is at best misleading and at worst potentially harmful in its implications. Many other such lists on wikipedia include the term notable in their titles, so I personally suggest that option specifically. Acolossus | Talk | Contributions 12:56, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (lists), even if Wikipedia:Other stuff exists that violate the guideline. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:10, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title change 

message: Add Jamie Raines, known on YouTube as "JammiDodger", a Pseudo-Celebrity English trans man living in the UK. Also add Noah Adams, known on YouTube as 
"NOAHFINNCE", a Pseudo-Celebrity English trans man living in the UK, both of whom frequently collaborate on YouTube 2603:6080:2408:E741:D505:DB7C:DFA9:8FAC (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: Not without reliable independent sources establishing that they should have an article; and not without such a policy-complaint article being created here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs)  04:25, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2021 

message: Adding Gottmik to the list of notable transgender people. As the first trans-man on Ru Paul's Drag Race, they are an extremely notable and inspirational figure that needs to be mentioned on this page NeatPengu (talk) 11:32, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, Gottmik does have an article. Funcrunch (talk) 14:42, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2021 

message: add 'Gottmik' to list of transgender people 65.51.58.1 (talk) 00:41, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: . ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 12:55, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2021 

message: He isn't on the list.
May I add him? ~~178.149.47.182.~~
:Yes.  Mysterymanblue  22:00, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I didn't realize that this page was protected. I added him for you.  Mysterymanblue  22:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actor Brian Michael Smith 

message: To be added:
Eleanor Rykener (given name John Rykener): Eleanor is one of the oldest documented transgender on record. Rykener was arrested December 1394 after having sexual contact with a man named John Britby on cheapside London while dressed in womens clothing. Historians unfortunately link Rykener with another prisoner of the same name at that time so there isn't clear evidence here. However, Rykener after being interrogated for 2 offenses: sodomy and prostitution. In those days prostitution was not a criminal offense but more or less considered a moral sin and there is non real evidence that Rykener was prosecuted for either. It waa not uncommon for Rykener to have relations with both men and women INCLUDING priests and nuns. Rykener was introduced to the idea of contact with men by a dress maker or embroideress by the name of Elizabeth Brouderer who also dressed Rykener and may have acted as a procurer. Spacetwinkie (talk) 15:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. There needs to be reliable secondary sources to provide this information and establish notability. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:21, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an article about them. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 20:46, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:   As Jason A. Quest established notability with the link to the article, I added Rykener with an reliable source and a note on how their gender identity is the subject of some scholarly discussion.  Mysterymanblue  09:25, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2021 

message: Sylvia Rivera should be removed. Rivera’s page does not mention being transgender, and features a quote about Rivera disliking the term. 87.92.195.110 (talk) 15:42, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The article does considerably more than "mention" her gender identity, and what it describes is generally understood today as "transgender". Her comment about disliking the term was in the context of disliking labels in general, "even" that one, and she revived STAR as "Street Transgender Action Revolutionaries", which indicates some level of identification with it. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 22:36, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Rivera did not identify as transgender, simple as that. The source on this page doesn't mention being trans either. 87.92.195.110 (talk) 04:45, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a better source to the list... this one does. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The new source says she came to hate the label transgender as well. Wikipedia manual of style on gender identity says to use terms “that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources”. In Rivera’s case, it’s that she wasn’t transgender.87.92.195.110 (talk) 13:39, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it says she disliked labels in general, "even" the one that best described her. If I say "I don't like being called a queer artist, I just want to be 'Jason'", that doesn't mean I'm not a queer artist. "Silvia Rivera" is a not a gender identity. Unless you have a source where she specifically says that she is not trans and identifies as something else, this is just wikilawyering. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 15:50, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Sylvia Rivera 

message: Leanne Mills is a British trans woman who underwent reassignment surgery in 1995. Born in 1961 she participated in a UK TV documentary on the subject of transsexualism in 1980. Part of ATV's current affairs series 'Format V', the episode (entitled 'What Am I?') featured her struggles and fears while living as a woman and waiting for her referral to Charing Cross Hospital in London for hormone treatment. Using the cover name 'Mary of Mansfield' she spoke candidly in an interview and was filmed out in public. Since aged only 19 at the time, as far as can be assessed, she was the first 'trans teenager' to come out on British television. The programme in question is now available online.  https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-what-am-i-1980-online
Fairstar1965 (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Leanne Mills 

message: Is this useful in any way? InTheUniversal (talk) 17:09, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It is lists trans people and brings them together into one list. Since there are lists like List of people with non-binary gender identities and List of intersex people, why not have this list? --Historyday01 (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Utility is not a criterion for being included in the Wikipedia, and care is taken that every person on this list has a Wikipedia article and is therefore notable and relevant in some way. So why should this page not exist? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 22:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does this page exist? 

message: I understand that tables make it easier to present information consistently, but I think doing the whole page as a single table is too cumbersome to maintain. Would there be any objection to breaking this back down into alphabetic categories, but with tables (all A in one table, all B in another, etc.)? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 22:39, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't object to doing it into alphabetic categories, but I think that if there isn't enough for a specific letter than it should be combined with another letter, like B-C or C-D, and listed as such. --Historyday01 (talk) 22:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page formatting: single table is too cumbersome to maintain 

message: Hi there. I wondered if you could potentially add two more people to the list? They both have wikipedia pages and are prominent non-binary trans activists in the UK. They are:
Owl Fisher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owl_Fisher
Fox Fisher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Fisher
Thank you!
-S Starseekers (talk) 14:01, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: ––FormalDude  talk 21:24, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2021 

message: Add Amy Schneider, b. 1979, she/her/hers to this list 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Schneider Dbishov (talk) 19:13, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 20:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2022