Talk:House of Oldenburg

message: RE: Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
If and when one of his descendents ever did ascended the British throne, will they be the House of Windsor or the House of Mountbatten-Windsor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xenia390 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As clarified in all three of the articles you link to, it will still be the House of Windsor. Mountbatten-Windsor is only a personal surname. -- Jao 21:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Does "Oldenburg" in this article refer to Oldenburg in Oldenburg (state) or to Oldenburg, Schleswig-Holstein? -- Petri Krohn 06:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The latter. Charles 10:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oldenburg or Oldenburg 

message: The current table is wrong. Both the kings of Denmark and the dukes of Holstein-Gottorp used the titles of Duke of Schleswig and Holstein at the same time. The current table makes it look like the kings of Denmark relinquished the title, which was not the case. This can be seen from the titles used in Danish laws and in the coats of arms of the Danish monarchs. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 22:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the coats of arms argument doesn't prove much, there can not be any doubt that the Danish monarchs (until the death of Frederick IX, it seems) even formally claimed the title. However, the table shows titles under which members of the house have reigned in various states, not merely titles which they have claimed. Whatever position Frederick IX held in (parts of) Schleswig-Holstein, he did it in the capacity of King of Denmark, not in the capacity of Duke of Schleswig and Holstein. South of the Danish border, he had no more jurisdiction than Juan Carlos I has in Jerusalem (he formally claims to be the King of Jerusalem) or than I would have in Denmark if I signed this posting with "Jao, King of Denmark". -- Jao 23:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking more in line of the coats of arms scattered around the Royal parts of the two provinces, e.g. the Danish arms on the North Gate of Flensburg. I am also very much aware that the last person that took those titles even remotely serious was King Christian X, but by excluding the Oldenburgers from the list between 1580 and 1721/1773 - although they controlled roughly 1/4 of the two provinces and were co-rulers (with the Gottorp dynasty) in an additional 1/2 - 1/3 of the entire region makes it look like they had been expelled from the provinces which was clealy not the case. I have no problems with listing them as "co-rulers" of Schleswig until 1721 and the same for Holstein Holstein until 1773. But given the importance the Gottorpers and the region played in Danish foreign policy during the 18th century, the current list doesn't seem accurate. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 18:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Counts / dukes of Schleswig and Holstein. 

message: An Order-in-Council issued in 1960, which is the legally controlling document concerning the name of the British dynasty and its members' surnames. It says, in relevant part, "...Now therefore I declare My Will and Pleasure that, while I and My Children shall continue to be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, My descendants other than descendants enjoying the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and female descendants who marry and their descendants shall bear the name of Mountbatten-Windsor." (London Gazette, issue 41948, Feb. 8, 1960, p. 1/1003.  See also the Times Feb 9, 1960 p. 10E.) 
So only Elizabeth II and her children (no other descendants) are declared to continue bearing the name and continuing the House of Windsor by decree (her Wales grandsons or York granddaughters or their issue, coming to the throne, may also continue that name, but they are not required by any royal declaration to do so. It would be their choice). If her cadet descendants in the male-line, i.e. Viscount Severn's issue, should ever accede to the throne they do so under the surname of "Mountbatten-Windsor" unless (descended from a British monarch reigning after Elizabeth II, or) the 1960 decree is changed -- which has not occurred. The Mountbatten-Windsors descend in legitimate male-line from the House of Oldenburg via the royal house of Greece patrilineally and via the royal house of Windsor matrilineally, and as such they constitute a branch of the House of Oldenburg, which has held and does hold numerous royal thrones. That and nothing more has been written into this article because it is accurate, objections notwithstanding. Lethiere (talk) 15:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In reply to another objection on my talk page, I add the following to the statement above: The Queen's words were quite precise, I declare My Will and Pleasure that, while I and My Children shall continue to be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor... She herself correlates her immediate family's surname and the name of the dynasty, declaring that they are co-extensive in her descendants -- for one generation only, that of her children. After that, the Order-in-Council is exhausted, except for continuation in her cadet descendants (which includes, e.g., Severn) of the name "Mountbatten-Windsor". If you can find any law or decree which documents a difference between any British monarch's family name and that of his/her dynasty, please provide it: George V in 1917 and Elizabeth II in 1960 quite explicitly acknowledge that not only their dynasty, but their own name is "Windsor". Unless you wish to try to argue that Windsor was one of their Christian names, it is their family name/surname. According to British history and tradition, when monarchs ascend the throne or reign with surnames (e.g., Tudor, Stuart, Windsor), those surnames become the name of the dynasty. There is no reason to believe that future Mountbatten-Windsors would break with this tradition, but I am interested to see any evidence there might be which suggests otherwise. Therefore, nothing stated in the article is inaccurate and is subject to deletion on grounds of error or original research. Please do not initiate an edit war against correct article information. Lethiere (talk) 09:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  House of Mountbatten-Windsor 

message: Charles, Prince of Wales is a member patrilineally of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg which is a cadet branch of the House of Oldenburg. His father, the prince consort Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh is a member through his Greek ancestors. Should Great Britain be mentioned in the article as a country with ties to the House of Oldenburg with a footnote about Prince Philip's ancestry or should it be put off until a member of the House of Glücksburg (Prince Charles, William, or Harry) ascends to the throne and the head of state (not her husband) is a member?----Rotellam1 (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The latter! Seven Letters 17:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Except (1) it's not called Great Britain and (2) in British terms (the Letters Patent of 1960) the Queen's heirs are of the House of Windsor. DeCausa (talk) 20:54, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, United Kingdom, but regardless of whatever the house is called in the United Kingdom, Philip's children and legitimate male-line descendants are also members of the House of Oldenburg. This branch of Windsor, therefore, is a junior line of the House of Oldenburg in addition to being sovereign in the United Kingdom. The same principle is illustrated in Luxembourg where, although they are heirs of Nassau and bear that name, they are also junior Capetians (Bourbons, of Parma) which is reflected in the arms they bear. Seven Letters 21:08, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's often argued to be the case. But there's no definitive answer: it depends on the social/historical context. But in the UK there's something approaching (but not quite) a de jure position that it's House of Windsor only.  This is at odds with the (European) traditionalist genealogist tradition. It's a mistake to regard patrilineal houses as an immutable universal "truth". In the UK there's a long tradition of aristocratic descent and assumption of family names through the female line. Even in the (continental) European tradition there are exceptions eg the Romanovs. But if one looks more broadly, societies such as Republican Rome and some Celtic societies defined the equivalent of the "house" entirely differently where by adult adoption individuals frequently left one aristocratic family and joined another. DeCausa (talk) 21:43, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the Romanovs, they always, always, always maintained their rights to the titles of the house of Holstein-Gottorp (a branch of the house of Oldenburg) to which they belonged. I agree that some people see it as "only Windsor" but that hasn't been definitively stated from the people at Buckingham Palace. Of course, they're only concerned with what is under their direct jurisdiction (any why shouldn't they be?). The definition of a house though, particularly a German one, is from the top down. Seven Letters 23:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That just applying Germanic (salic) interpretation of house to be only male-line descendants. To which House a person belongs to is much less clear cut as people, who want to use the salic law model of a house (what DeCausa call the immutable universal "truth"), may want it to be. The Nassau's of Luxembourg, the Braganza of Portugal in the 19th century, the Windsors, the Habsburgs of Austria, and the Russian Romanovs are all exceptions to that rule. Princess Victoria of Sweden's descendants are not going to be the House of Westling. According to wikipedia and some people the children of Prince Philip would be part of the House of Oldenburg but on law and paper they will remain the House of Windsor. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 01:05, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't simply applying German interpretations to Windsor, I was applying those to Oldenburg. The Nassaus continued because the entire male line died out but they still use Bourbon-Parma titles and arms. It was the Nassau Family Pact which originally entailed territory. The Braganzas in Portugal were still Saxon dukes, the Habsburgs were still Lorraines (Habsburg-Lorraine and, Marie Antoinette gave her name as "Marie Antoinette de Lorraine d'Autriche") and the Romanovs still used the titles "Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen and Oldenburg" and incorporated those arms into their greater arms. So they were all heads of their own houses at the same time they were junior members of others. Seven Letters 03:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the point that both myself and The Emperor's New Spy is making is that there is more than one definition/interpretation of this. The one you are fixing on is derived from a Germanic-centric interpretation (and I'm sure Salic law would have been something in the background the pushes it in that direction). Other cultures have differing perspectives. The UK one is somewhat mixed, I believe. A "House" is ultimately a social construct. Who is in and who is out isn't set in stone like the laws of physics (?!). Some traditional genealogists, particularly ones influenced by German aristocratic genealogical interpretation, treat it that way. DeCausa (talk) 09:46, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I clearly indicated that the House of Oldenburg, following Germanic rules, includes them as members. That doesn't mean that they are also not members of the House of Windsor (to which I am not applying Germanic rules). It's the same way that the Luxembourgs are members of the House of Nassau (by their laws, proclamations and as heirs) and the House of Bourbon (as Capetians in male-line descent from Hughes Capet). If you made a Venn diagram of those who fit the definition of the house of Windsor (those who fall under the proclamations) and the house of Oldenburg (those who are male-line descendants of the counts of Oldenburg) then Philip's male-line descendants would fall right in the middle. Seven Letters 15:20, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a difference between saying "Philip's children and legitimate male-line descendants are also members of the House of Oldenburg" (as you did in your post) and "Philip's children and legitimate male-line descendants are, according to the House laws of the House of Oldenburg, also members of that House". I wouldn't have any disagreement with that if that is what the Oldenburg House laws say. DeCausa (talk) 15:25, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem begins when a reader realises that the House of Windsor is a branch of the House of Wettin and then concludes that Prince William, being a member of the House of Windsor, is naturally also a member of the House of Wettin - which he simply isn't. Surtsicna (talk) 15:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Straw man. No one would ever conclude that he is a member of the House of Wettin. Someone who thinks of the House of Windsor as a branch of the House of Wettin is clearly thinking in terms of the traditionalist (European) genealogist's approach. In which case, it would be obvious to them (in their own terms) that he is a member of the House of Oldenburg. For others, it's just the House of Windsor, and Wettin doesn't figure in the picture. DeCausa (talk) 16:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That would mean that George VI and Edward VII belonged to different royal houses. Did they? I couldn't bring myself to say so. Surtsicna (talk) 17:12, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like you may have missed the point I was making. The answer to your question is that there is no single answer. DeCausa (talk) 21:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countries: Great Britain? 

message: Can we perhaps use arms common to the entire house in the infobox rather than the arms of the Grand Duchy of Oldenburg? The grand ducal line was one of the most junior of the entire house. Seven Letters 21:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arms in infobox 

message: "...  and the first seventeen names in the line of succession to the British throne, all belong to this house.".
You either have male line descent,  or you don't.    The children of Princess Anne of the UK are not members of the house of Oldenburg. Lathamibird (talk) 08:46, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Corrected this. 12.144.5.2 (talk) 16:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very dubious assertion 

message: An attempt was made to remove the Russian "Romanov" line. I rolled it back. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:39, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian house

message: I would like to take the liberty of making an excursus here - necessarily not that small unfortunately - because I have noticed a certain confusion among English-speaking editors when editing various articles that refer to German royal houses, as far as the use of the German duke or prince titles is concerned. Very understandable though. (Also compare: Duke#Italy, Germany and Austria.) -- The titel of the Oldenburg grand-ducal branch is Duke and Duchess, with each male or female member of that house being so styled. The designations of the younger agnates as prince or princess contained in the family tree of this article are therefore incorrect.   This seems a bit strange, because the ducal title is a primogeniture title in both English and French nobility law and tradition. In other grand ducal houses, such as Luxembourg, Baden or Saxe-Weimar, those born later hold the title of prince or princess while an eventual primogeniture title is reserved to the head of the house. The weirdness is compounded when you consider that the members of the Glücksburg family bear the title of prince/princess, while its head, Christoph, Prince of Schleswig-Holstein, does not make use of the ducal title to which he is actually entitled.   The solution to the riddle lies in the complicated history of the Holy Roman Empire: there the Holy Roman Emperor did not enfeoff individuals, but rather whole families "in overall hand" with duchies or counties. The head of the family merely accepted the flag (das "Fahnlehen") as a sign of his family's enfeoffment. The question of how the fief would be governed was a matter for the family: whether in primogeniture, in condominium, or by partition. Therefore, initially all family members were enfeoffed and were allowed to use the title count or duke. If primogeniture was chosen, the title of the elder of the family did not stand out, except when elevated by the emperor with a higher primogeniture title such as Fürst or Kurfürst. Therefore, all Oldenburgs were initially counts and countesses, from 1774 dukes and duchesses. That is why all members of the House of Wettin, in addition to their regionally designated princely titles, also bear the additional general title Duke/Duchess of Saxony which was endowed on Frederick I in 1423. The German titles of princes only came about late, after the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806, with the exception of the Electors of Brandenburg who declared themselves to be the Kings of Prussia while they elevated their agnates from margraves to princes and princesses from the early 18th century. The princely titles of the old ducal houses therefore essentially go back to the 19th century, when the sub-states of the Old Empire had become sovereign in the German Confederation. However, those families who had already achieved ducal rank in the Old Empire proudly clung to it, while those who were only elevated to the rank of Duke or Grand Duke after 1806, adopted the title of prince for their families, such as Baden (previously all margraves) or Luxemburg (the latter however retaining their older titles Duke/Duchess of Nassau as secondary titles). That is why, for example, not only the Oldenburgians are styled dukes and duchesses, but also all male and female members of the House of Mecklenburg or the House of Württemberg. An exception to this rule are the Wittelsbachs, who in the Old Empire also all held the title of duke, but accepted the title of prince when they founded their Kingdom of Bavaria in 1806; the members of the royal main branch have retained the princely titles to this day (with only the head of the family styled Duke of Bavaria), while all male and female members of the ducal side branch are styled Duke/Duchess in Bavaria. Another exception are the Holstein-Glücksburgs, originally also dukes/duchesses, who clung to their (Danish) princely titles since the 19th century. The Oldenburgs and Mecklenburgs, on the other hand, always retained their general titles of duke/duchess and did not bear the title of prince/princess, although they are sometimes referred to as such in the literature. The Württembergs, actually dukes of the Old Empire, held the title of princes in their 19th century kingdom (similar to the Wittelsbachs), but their secondary ducal line, which exists alone to this day, retained the title of duke/duchess for all family members. -- Equord (talk) 15:26, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is not a forum for opinions. If we wish to add info or change anything we are to discuss that here in relevant sections and provide reliable sources for anything we wish to submit. Our personal opinions are not needed. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:43, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Per WP:BOLD, it's not strictly necessary to bring any proposed change to the talk page first provided WP:BRD is observed. However, , in this series of edits you added 4.4kb of text without a single reliable source supporting it. Please review WP:V before editing further. We need sources added to the article otherwise it's just WP:OR which is prohibited. DeCausa (talk) 22:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! Of course I meant changes of this magnitude and without sources, as I wrote to the user. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I understand that sources are required and may endeavor to add such to my supplements. In this respect, I apologize for initially posting the short, concise and essential outline of the history of the House of Oldenburg that I wrote without further sources. With the exception of the numerous links, from which of course everything follows in great detail. Ultimately, none of the individual steps in the rise and acquisition of numerous thrones by the family should be objectively disputed. However, I would like to ask you to let me know in advance whether there are any reservations about the content of the text itself. I think everything that I have presented in terms of fairly rough outlines of historical developments corresponds not only to the text and sources of linked articles but to their summaries, basic knowledge so to speak. But sources can certainly be added. On the other hand, one has to say: The current version of the article contains very poor and insufficient information about the history of the Oldenburgians, not even about the main lines of their development, at least not clear and understandable in the continuous text. You have to pull everything together from charts and lists and links. -- Equord (talk) 12:20, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Per WP:CIRCULAR what's written in other Wikipedia articles can not be relied on. DeCausa (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I understand. But I also raised the question in advance whether there were any substantive concerns about my text supplement. So far, no such statements have been made. I will then restore it and add sources in due course. Equord (talk) 21:21, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If you add back without sourcing I will revert you. Only add in text which can be verified agianst sources. DeCausa (talk) 21:23, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles Duke vs. Prince in Germany 

message: When I look at the Family tree and more specific on the members of the Schleswig-Holstein-etc. branches then I see the abbreviation "r." for reigned used right up to present time. But that seem somewhat strange, since they haven't actually reigned any land since the 1850s or at least 1860s. When we compare with King Constantine II of Greece we can see, that his reign is marked with an end in 1973. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use the expression 'tenure' for the Dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-etc. from the 1860s and onwards and mark this with a t. in stead of an r.? Oleryhlolsson (talk) 14:47, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family tree - 'reigned' or 'tenure'  

message: If King Frederik X is from the House of Monpezat; does that make it reasonable to update the quick facts menu to show the last ruler in Denmark and these info? Oğuzlar 14:51, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should the "quick facts" menu be updated?