Talk:Edmond Bordeaux Szekely

message: The Essenes were not early Christians. They were an ascetic Jewish sect which existed at the same time as Christ was supposed to be teaching and many of their beliefs coincide with Christianity. While its possible that Christ was an Essene its not proven. I think the article should be adjusted to reflect this. ThePeg 00:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Essenes

message: To the unsigned person who keeps editing the section on authenticity. Szkeley claims to have discovered unpublished scrolls which affect the entire Christian religion. It's entirely NPOV to quote factual, published references that question his claims, which are not accepted in academia. Your analysis that an objection is 'irrelevant' because of your original research doesn't matter - it's a published objection to Szekely's claims and it is reasonable to include a selection of them. As a result I have undone your edits. Perhaps you'd like to join us here and quote your sources on the Hebrew/Aramaic issue? Bregence (talk) 19:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What OR? It is a matter of indisputable fact that Dr. Szekely published the original Hebrew text of Book One in 1974 (as our article correctly states).  Anyone can get a copy of the printed 1974 Book and verify this is so.  It seems that your reference perhaps is not aware of this fact, since he is attacking Szekely's "ability" to translate it from Aramaic; he is stabbing at something and missing without all the full facts, so it's a sloppy reference, and anyway for this reason it would be far from convincing to the significant POV of the many varied groups that do use Szekely's translations. Once the Hebrew has been published, any criticism should center around textual criticism of the Hebrew - not questioning the quality of an English translation of the Hebrew, by someone who has evidently not seen the Hebrew original, and evidently does not even know what language the original was in. I suggest that this is a case for WP:RS/N, to determine if we should give such undue weight to a critic who doesn't seem to have his facts straight. 70.105.20.239 (talk) 00:58, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you clarify which languages you believe the original texts were written in? I've seen references to them being in Aramaic, Hebrew and Slavonic. The description of the 1985 hardcover edition of Szekely's "The Gospel of the Essenes" says he "translated the original manuscript from Aramaic", and Websters quotes the full title of the 1976 edition as "The Gospel of the Essenes: the original Hebrew and Aramaic texts" . In 1971 Szekely published "The Essene gospel of peace: the Aramaic and old Slavonic texts : from the 3. century Aramaic ms". In 1973 he published "The Essene Code of Life.....from the original Aramaic and French translations". Since these mystery manuscripts were of course only figments of Szekely's imagination, you could argue that John D. Ladd's objection to an 18 year old Szekely's translation ability is superfluous, because they weren't written in any language. Also, because all of the claims are WP:FRINGE, biblical scholars ignore Szekely. Per Beskow appears to be the only one who took an interest in examining his claims critically.  Bregence (talk) 00:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Can you clarify which languages you believe the original texts were written in?"  I can do better than that, I can tell you (again) where to find the complete Hebrew text of "Essene Gospel of John": He published it in 1974, and it is right here, in Classical Hebrew, in my 1974 published copy.  "I've seen references to them being in Aramaic, Hebrew and Slavonic."  Most of the rest of your questions are answered in Prof. Szekeley's own published accounts of how he says he found the translations.  (You'd think anyone taking the time to criticize him would also take the time to obtain that firsthand account, and at least find out his side of the story beforehand, so they would know what they are criticizing.)  In short, he claimed to have found virtually the same texts, in later Aramaic and Old Slavonic translations, as well as in Hebrew.  The Hebrew, being the oldest, is the only version that he published in the original text, as far as I know.  70.105.57.220 (talk) 02:40, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Critics (e.g. Beskow) have complained that Szekely's account of how he discovered the manuscripts was inconsistent over time. Since it's WP:FRINGE I'd prefer an objective third party account that dates to the discovery of the manuscripts, not something written four decades later. Also, I'm not sure how your statement  undermines John D. Ladd's objection to an 18 year old Szekely's ability to translate Aramaic. Surely to compare the (imaginary) Hebrew manuscript with the (imaginary) Aramaic text, Szekely would have had to be fluent in Aramaic? Bregence (talk) 18:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have some authority that has declared Szekely's translation work to be "Fringe", or did you declare it to be "fringe" yourself because that is your POV?  Obviously, the many different groups that use Szekely's work would not share that POV, so it looks like a classic difference of opinions there, depending on the school of thought.  As for Szekely's age at the time, I have seen a wide array of birth years given for him, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions on how old he was at the time, based on only one source of what year he was born.  70.105.57.220 (talk) 21:59, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

text: You sidestepped my question. To compare the (imaginary) Hebrew manuscript with the (imaginary) Aramaic text, Szekely would have had to be fluent in Aramaic, no? I don't think it's a stretch to call Szekely's discovery of 'lost manuscripts' a fringe work. And yes, the first thing I did was verify his DOB. I located two US government records of his border crossings that state a DOB of 1905.  Bregence (talk) 02:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsigned edits on Authenticity

message: page 86. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That source also doesn't seem terribly well-informed.  It states that Szekely first published a translation in German, which is flat our misinformation!  (It was French) Can't you get any halfway-accurate critical sources? I mean something a little more accurate than Junior World Book. 70.105.20.239 (talk) 02:56, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on authenticity 

message: "Various biographies have said that Szekely took his Ph.D. at the University of Paris or at the Pasteur Institute, as well as other degrees at Vienna and Leipzig Universities.<ref name=TreasuryofRawFoods/"
Treasury of Raw Foods is a book by Szekely, used to cite vague statements about degrees he might have from various schools? This makes no sense. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Degrees

message: I spent a few hours reading the first part of Szekely's autobiography. An interesting read but names and dates are sparse in sections. I could corroborate some of it (e.g. the 1935 trip to Tahiti is documented in US Government passenger records, which note it is a 'scientific expedition') but other sections (e.g. the 1938 shipwreck, the friend Jean Pierre Weiller the deaf Chevalier de la Legion d'Honneur) either don't check out or are lacking sufficient details to be verified.
One of the claims made in the autobiography which is in the Wikipedia article is "In 1928, Szekely and Nobel Prize-winning novelist Romain Rolland founded the International Biogenic Society". This not mentioned in two biographies of Rolland that I checked, and in fact I'm unable to find any references outside of Szekely. I contacted Prof R A Francis who is the author of a recent bio on Rolland and an authority on him with access to the Rolland archives. He'd never heard of Szekely or the IBS and considered the claim "unlikely". Given that, is there an authoritative non-Szekely source for this claim? Bregence (talk) 01:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Biographical details and Romain Rolland

message: Found the following earlier today in a Google Scholar search using 
"e b szekely" AND (cholesterol OR sun OR fats OR pollution)
They may just be on topics mentioned in earlier sections, but saw no harm in posting them. 
1. Health, youth, and longevity through food, water, air, sun, exercise, breathing, mind. The golden rules of life and happiness. Introduction to cosmotherapy. The Essene science of life. Edmond Bordeaux Székely, Tecate, Calif., Essene School of Life [©1943]
2. Living in the raw: recipes for a healthy lifestyle  By Rose Lee Calabro
3. Les secrets de vie des jus-santé  By Bruno Kleiner
4. Rainbow Green Live-Food Cuisine  G Cousens - 2003 
Michael P. Barnett (talk) 17:32, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Rancho la Puerta -- citation needed

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