Talk:Megalania

message: Some cryptozoologists think that the Megalania may still exist in the Australian Outback
See this site 
:Please be careful, citing information from Rex Gilroy, since he has been discredited on several matter ( e.g. Gimpy Pyramid discussion). Please cite additional sources as well.
~The post that sightings huge monitors only began after Megalania's initial discovery are crap since since the aboriginies have reported huge monitor lizards for several hundred too even a few thousand years they even in the distant past would have told stories off how these monsters brought with them fire and destruction so the thought these animals have just started being reported needs too be re thought.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.100.52 (talk) 20:35, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you'll read the page, you'll note that there is a legitimate possibility that aborigines actually encountered it when it was alive, and have presumably kept the story alive via oral storytelling traditions.  However, there are precisely zero reputable reports within the past several thousand years. Mokele (talk) 22:07, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Personal opinions do not amount to anything at Wikipedia: Reputable and verifiable sources are what matter.  That, and the talkpages are for suggesting and discussing improvements to the articles, not for starting or reviving forum threads concerning gossip.--Mr Fink (talk) 14:33, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that you also said that sources don't matter.  And please stop trying to insert your personal opinion that megalanias are not extinct into the article.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said that sources don't matter, that you made up, but because of your evident belief that it is extinct you're removing my sources. I'm not trying to insert my personal opinions, now you're being ridiculous, I'm just inserting some information that people should know about. Please stop removing the content, I'm just stating the obvious, and just because you might believe it's extinct that gives you no right or reason to change the article information and mix it with your belief and opinions. TurokSwe (talk) 17:34, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources need to be reliable. That one isn't. FunkMonk (talk) 15:37, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Then why does one reference still refer to Cryptozoology.com? I think you only refer to that because that sentence denies the idea of living Megalanias and therefore supports your belief. I think you're just going on your opinions/belief now. TurokSwe (talk) 17:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure I'm not. And that reference should be removed too, it is still not reliable. FunkMonk (talk) 15:42, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, look at it this way, the references are references to sites which include the claims, but it doesnt mean they are true, just that the claims exist and people should know about them. TurokSwe (talk) 17:45, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you read the following Wikipedia guidelines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources FunkMonk (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

text: And in the meantime, please stop trying to push the unreliably sourced point of view that the megalania is still alive, especially since trying to do so without verifying such claims to be true confuses the reader, and is a sign of poor scholarship.--Mr Fink (talk) 17:43, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It does certainly not confuse the reader, it makes it all more clear, at least that's what I've heard. I have been trying to give references but you keep removing them. This and your attitude gives me the impression that you are completely against the idea of living Megalanias and unlike you, I'm neutral in these subjects. Call it bad scholarship, call it whatever you want, that is only a matter of opinion, my friend. TurokSwe (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Opinion" is not allowed on Wikipedia, only reliable sources. So if you keep continuing with the questionable sources, don't be surprised if you get blocked... I would stop now, if I was you. FunkMonk (talk) 17:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

text: You are not being neutral when you are insisting that they are alive without conclusive evidence, while accusing mainstream scientists of having "a controversial claim" of the beast being extinct due to fossil evidence and a profound lack of living individuals, while using a cryptozoologist's homepage as the only source.--Mr Fink (talk) 18:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said that opinions were allowed either, niether did I include any opinions in the article. I believe that they are alive, but it is the evidence (all eyewitness reports [which for the record started before the animal became publicly known], the cast of a footprint, the appearant 300 year old bones, and a hide on a bar, still a rumour though) that I have been trying to provide but you just keep discrediting and removing my sources. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are actually letting your belief that they are extinct get in the way of letting the evidence into the light. I am neutral, but the evidence exist, and it's pretty convincing if you ask me. To my mind, it would seem ignorant to discredit the evidence, and especially just because they havent been brought up on a "reliable source". I would say this is practically a war about opinions/belief, and please don't say "it's not about opinions", because even though Wikipedia might not be about opinions, opinions and beliefs are still being brought up in the articles. TurokSwe (talk) 23:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

text: It is neither about opinion or belief. It is about reliable sources. If what you say is not backed up by reliable sources, it can't be used on Wikipedia. That's all there is to it. FunkMonk (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I suggest we remove for example the insertion "now extinct" or change it to "claimed to be extinct". Because I see no reliable source or evidence for this claim. TurokSwe (talk) 23:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you should maybe try to check every single source used in the article. They all state it is extinct. FunkMonk (talk) 21:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: They could aswell have stated "alive" or "thought to be alive" or "claimed to be extinct" for example, the sources arent that different from non-"reliable sources", except that they are built up in a way that makes people classify them as "reliable sources". But where's the evidence? My point still stands, if it can't be removed then at least it should be renamed to "claimed to be extinct". TurokSwe (talk) 23:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the only reason why you claim these sources are unreliable is because they disagree with your personal opinion that Megalania is still alive.--Mr Fink (talk) 21:28, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Just for starters, how the heck would such a huge lizard be able to hide for thousands of years? If you say "the desert", what exactly could it feed on that is large enough to sustain it? AndI'monly asking this because it seems the discussion is going nowhere, if you don't care about reliable sources, Wikipedia is not the place for you. It is a core principle. FunkMonk (talk) 21:30, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Don't act like if you know what I'm thinking. I don't call these sources unreliable, but they could aswell have been unreliable if they werent built up like they are, thats the difference. Then I'd say they disagree both with my personal belief and the collected evidence. Megalania is puny compare to the continent of Australia. There are still unexplored parts of the continent. It could feed on farmers, travelers, dogs, snakes, crocs, kangaroos, still surviving Moa birds and Diprotodon and hadrosaurs (yes, I know, cryptozoology) for example. We don't know until we stop being so ignorant and lazy and starts to investigate. TurokSwe (talk) 23:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Lulz. I rest my case. I think we're dealing with a troll. I don't know where to start, but just one thing, you do know that moas never lived on mainland Australia, right? FunkMonk (talk) 21:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ridiculous accusations. I might be wrong on the Moa part, then lets try Emu or Cassowary. TurokSwe (talk) 23:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Still around

message: I remember seeing picture of Megalania from a BBC TV show or something like that. If someone can get around to uploading it and figuring out the copyright issues, that would be great. Bibliomaniac15 19:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: It's interesting to find out that Megalania has been renamed Varanus. Does that mean Megalania is now the common name? Excuse me, but I have an interest in this fiddly little nomenclature stuff.--Gazzster 22:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most (all?) scientists do incllude this species in the same genus as all other monitor lizards, Varanus. I guess megalania is left as a common name since everyone still uses it, but that's probably due to ignorance of the current situation. It would be like using Brontosaurus as the common name for Apatosaurus, or Megalodon as the common name for Carcharocles megalodon. True in that it's "common", but it's actually more of a "common mistake".Dinoguy2 22:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Not to get too anal here, but despite the statement of various herpetologists (who are notorious lumpers as it is. See Eleutherodactylus, or Anolis for examples) that Megalania should be sunk into Varanus, none of them ever do it. The latest info that I've obtained on this comes from Molnar's 2004 book on Megalania (well worth the read). As it stands, the name seems to still be controversial, but unresolved. - Jura 23:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, it is a monitor (in the sense that it's still in the family Varanidae). On the one hand, I agree the name has iconic value and will remain in the popular lexicon as "Megalania," much how the species named for Carcharocles megalodon has become symbolic of the animal. That said, from a taxonomic standpoint, the name should have some scientific credibility in order to stay. If we ever get enough material, or find someone willing to work with what's there and give us a thorough description of the creature's anatomy, it will be easier to determine whether, or not it's a valid genus. Currently, the best thing to do (IMO) would be to have herpetologists agree to elevate the subgenera to generic status. This would alleviate some of the bloating in Varanus (which has at least as much variation as that seen in Felidae [and that's broken up into 18 genera]), and hopefully reduce that lumping urge. Jura 21:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: I thought that "Megalania" meant "butcher" or "killer."  Do we have a source of it meaning "strider"?--Mr Fink 15:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Lania" is the feminine of butcher, in Latin, but, apparently, the "lania" in "Megalania" is apparently a modified form of "plaina," which is Greek for "to roam about," as explained in the first footnote here --Mr Fink 20:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah, thanks for the clarification. Also thanks for getting the actual Latin in there. Getting ahold of the proper characters (no choice given that Owen didn't give an english version of the Latin) looked to be a pain in the butt. Jura 00:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because it was Greek, and not Latin, in fact.  If it was Latin, then it would have indeed meant "Great/giant (female) butcher"--Mr Fink 00:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Argh! Right, my bad there. Jura 01:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name Part 2

message: Should we mention Megalania often being mistranslated as "great butcher," or no?--Mr Fink (talk) 17:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, given how prevalent the latter meaning shows up in popular descriptions of Megalania, I think it would be a good idea to add that in. I threw in a simple description. If you could add the necessary Greek and Latin characters to flesh it out, that would be great. Jura (talk) 02:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Name Part 3

message: Just an FYI for editors. The recent 1,940kg estimate could initially be viewed as contentious. So to avoid an "editing war" over the size section, I've included a direct quote from Ralph Molnar's 2004 book on Megalania.
From page 127:
"...the Lau and Frost specimens (SVL estimated at 2.2 to 2.4 meters) seem to be close to the average, to judge from the sizes of the vertebrae held in the Queensland Museum. Blob's corrected equation gives a mass of about 320kg for a 2 meter (SVL) individual. The largest specimen (QM F2942) gives an estimated body length of 3.8 meters, which in turn gives a mass of approximately 1,940kg."
Jura (talk) 18:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Megalania Weight Estimates 

message: I'm very unconvinced about the derivation from "plaina" - allegedly Greek for "to roam about". For a start, Greek verbs are normally cited in either the first person singular present indicative ("I roam") or the present infinitive ("to roam") - "plaina" doesn't seem to have the right ending to be either of these. Moreover, why would the p have been omitted, totally obscuring the nature of the word? I've added the "fact" template pending some better explanation. --rossb (talk) 13:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I should have read the introduction to the article first! - in fact of course the Greek word is "alainō" - the "plaina" is clearly an (inexplicable) mistake --rossb (talk) 21:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On further research there is a Greek word "plazo" also meaning to wander about - maybe this may have contributed to the confusion - but it clearly has nothing to do with the name of the creature. --rossb (talk) 21:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And I've now consulted Owen's paper - the footnote makes it clear that the word he was using was actually ἠλαίνω (ēlainō) which my dictionary gives as a poetic or Ionic form of ἀλαίνω (alainō) which is the form quoted in the article. Still not very clear how the p crept in! --rossb (talk) 21:49, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good detective work. :) Abyssal (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derivation of the name 

message: # On TV, sequences from Jonny Quest's Dragons of Ashida were used to promote the show, original air date December 18, 1964: En route to Japan's outlying islands, Dr. Quest finds that an old biologist friend (now insane) is breeding oversized carnivorous lizards for the purpose of hunting human prey.
# In literature, Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon on page 277 has Bobby Shaftoe encounter a 'big lizard' ... -Sparky (talk) 16:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular media 

message: The issue of when, exactly Megalania went extinct was examined in detail in Molnar.  A precise date isn't known, only that no fossils are known from before 30,000 years ago (though the fossils in question don't have an exact age yet), and there was a major fauna & flora change (due to climatic changes) approximately 48,000 years ago.  Previously reported dates of around 20,000 years are apparently wrong due to some specific technical issues about calculating recent dates (the way Molnar phrased it implied everyone was doing it wrong prior to 1985).  Mokele (talk) 03:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extinction date 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: A cursory glance shows that many recent papers found on Google scholar mostly classify Megalania as "Varanus priscus" or "Varanus (Megalania) priscus/prisca", most likely following the paper by J. J. Head et al. in 2009 (which is also referenced in this very article). I've been confused by this supposed controversy for years now. Most of the papers about the taxonomic classification of Megalania are over a decade old and as far as I know, haven't been contested, am I missing something here? Monsieur X (talk) 14:06, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a slightly untidy, perhaps conservative, overview at Aust Museum. It is very interesting and the article might take some leads from Musser's synopsis in detailing where things are up to. Even with other support, conserving the name may still be a matter of convenience for Australian workers; a systematic review that includes the later work is yet to be published? cygnis insignis 15:29, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should be cautious to put trust in an article that's probably a decade old & hasn't been updated all that much. A quick search through the internet archive shows that most articles related to extinct species haven't been changed all that much. Also, their Megalania article also only has one reference compared to the myriad the other species have. For comparison: Here's their Procoptodon & Alamitophis articles from 2009 & here's their respective modern counterparts as seen here & here. Not much has changed. Monsieur X (talk) 02:39, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely a paucity of research and material, but Musser at AM is writing in 2018 and would be reflecting the current consensus (in Australia?). cygnis insignis 10:09, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have my doubts as the very same Museum published this paper in 2016 referring to the taxon as Varanus (Megalania) priscus, yet the paper itself is from 1930. Monsieur X (talk) 10:49, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The first description of the name? I didn't hunt out the answer, but the age would be irrelevant. The links at AM often are whatever is relevant and published in Australian museum's own journals. cygnis insignis 13:01, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

text: I think one issue is that the genus Varanus itself is very lumped, so whatever priscus is found to be closest to of modern species, it will most likely be within Varanus. And there, it has to be placed in the genus as well for it to remain monophyletic. FunkMonk (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I definitely agree that Varanus as a genus is quite lumped. If the various subgenera were split off into their own genera, Megalania might still be classified within Varanus due to its placement within the subgenus of the same name. Whether its relations lie with the perentie or the Komodo dragon & lace monitor. Monsieur X (talk) 02:39, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Have we settled on this genus controversy yet? 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: not moved. De-italicization found to be sufficient. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:31, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Megalania →  – There seems to be full consensus that Megalania is a junior synonym of Varanus, so I'd say there's 2 ways we can address this: either we move to page to Varanus priscus as is standard, or we keep it as Megalania without the italics and use it as a common name (as we sorta do with megalodon). Just quickly going through google, I see https://doi.org/10.1093/sysbio/syaa102 and https://doi.org/10.1016/j.quaint.2021.06.013 from 2021 which use "megalania" without italics. I can't say I really have a preference, but this issue should be addressed because it's confusing to read that it's classified as V. priscus when the article  uses Megalania throughout Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 19:56, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

text: Support keeping the current name but removing the italics Megalania is still by far the common name in popular culture, I think giving this article the Megalodon treatment would make the most sense. Maykii (talk) 16:48, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 27 August 2022