Talk:Bushido/Archive 3

message: I feel this page is in need of protection against vandalism.  Within the article on a heading, I found the word "sigma" with absolutely no relation to anything whatsoever. Gederoth 20:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism AKA MANSACK

message: Why the heck would you quote "serious historians" like Karl Friday?  I'd rather hear from someone who actually lived there and translated the books themselves, seeking the advice of experts.  Karl Friday didn't even bother to crack open a Japanese dictionary which would have explained to him that it is very old.  He is obviously just another westerner trying to rewrite history.
:This does Dr.Karl Friday a major diservice.  He most certainly did live in Japan, is a trained historian, and much more besides.  I expand on this below.  His contrary (to the article) arguments are not unique to him or Western historians.  I wont add the link to one of his articles just to keep the peace but dissing people who don't particularily agree with you is bad form.Peter Rehse 12:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What you say would make sense, if the "sharp" and "pointed" content in question had any theoric basis. Never saw those claims anywhere else. What I did see, funnily enough, is exactly the "fictional and misleading" claims. I'll refrain from this discussion from now one, though. Better that way.--Kaonashi 00:03, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: Fair enough, not sure what more I can do to convince you otherwise outside of the link I posted right here as well as my first post above, and the other information I added in my original post, all of which has been taken from a great variety of textbooks on the subject. Please feel free to check out this page, too: The Top 11 Misconceptions About the Samurai. If I still can't sway your opinion, *shrug* what more can I do? --AngusH 03:17, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Either way, it seems to have been fixed now by this PHG figure. I've never seen the claims made by 203.62.217.146 anywhere else, and chances are they were just supporting a wild conspiracy theory or something with little basis in reality. It is good the way it is, and if someone can back up up those unfamiliar claims with fact I will accept it. Until then, the whole "Bushidō didn't exist" argument stands alongside those infernal "Hirohito was evil" and "Japanese people are lazy" rants in my mind. elvenscout742 13:41, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What's here now is fair enough I guess. Let me clear one thing up though: Bushido did "exist" and I don't mean to imply it didn't, it just wasn't a "code". Bushido simply means "way of the warrior", and there was obviously a "way of the warrior" (i.e.. a way that a warrior could be expected to behave), and it did go by this name. This was more cultural than anything else though, and was the result of centuries of families specialising in the martial arts, and varied in many ways from house to house. Out of interest I picked up my copy of the Cambridge History of Japan volumes 3 & 4 (arguably the best and most complete books you can get on the topic of Japanese history, which explains their price...), which cover the samurai/bushi periods, and checked the index for mentionings of "bushido". There are precious few, I believe only two, neither being longer than a single sentence. I feel this should help people gauge exactly how important bushido was in the grand scheme of things.--AngusH 04:22, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I realise this has all been going on some while ago, and that it's probably all sorted by now, but while I can sit and listen to any argument about the reality or otherwise of Bushido (not being a historian myself and generally unfamiliar with Japanese history), this idea about 'modern seppuku' needs addressing.  First, the matter that previous posters here seem to have got hung up on is whether or not Tokyo has barriers on subway stations to prevent suicides.  That's not the point.  The point is that suicides happen all over the world, and where there are trains there will be people who select that particular method.  Similarly, where there are cars that emit carbon monoxide, there will be people who choose that.  People throw themselves in front of tube (subway) trains in London almost daily.  Is there any reason to believe they are committing a ritual seppuku to reclaim their honour?  There are many motivations for suicide, and I think it's an unsafe assertion to claim that people kill themselves for a specific reason based purely on where they are.  Japanese-style swords are freely available from the Internet in Britain - I can only assume they're similarly available in Japan.  If someone wanted to commit a ritual suicide in this particular style, then I cannot imagine any reason why they would not obtain a sword to do it with - that way at least the method would suggest the reasoning for investigators.--Adaru 11:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual accuracy 

message: The writings of Imagawa Ryoshun, author of "Michiyukiburi" and "Nan taiheki" mentions "The Way of The Warrior" (Bu Shi Do) in his "regulations" (AD1412).  The regulations were respected by traditional Japanese as a guide to correct moral and ethical behavior until world war II.
:Afraid not, at least in the Imagawa Letter (or his regulations, as they are more commonly known). The term he uses is budo, which has a very different meaning than the bushido that is being discussed here.--AngusH 04:12, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word "Bushido" did exist as a word before the Tokugawa era 

message: Historian Wrong About Samurai--http://hnn.us/comments/32133.html
Volume 56 Number 1, January/February 2003
RELICS OF THE KAMIKAZE
Excavations off Japan's coast are uncovering Kublai Khan's ill-fated invasion fleet.
BY JAMES P. DELGADO
http://www.archaeology.org/0301/etc/kamikaze.html
(excerpt)
"In his recent book In Little Need of Divine Intervention, which analyzes two Japanese scrolls that depict the Mongol invasion, Bowdoin College historian Thomas Conlan suggests that a scene showing a samurai falling from his horse as a bomb explodes over him was a later addition. Conlan's research masterfully refutes many of the traditional myths and commonly held perceptions of the invasion, downplaying the number of ships and troops involved and arguing that it was not the storms but the Japanese defenders ashore, as well as confusion and a lack of coordination, that thwarted the khan's two invasions. But his suggestion that the exploding bomb is an anachronism has now been demolished by solid archaeological evidence. Moreover, when the Japanese x-rayed two intact bombs, they found that one was filled just with gunpowder while the other was packed with gunpowder and more than a dozen square pieces of iron shrapnel intended to cut down the enemy. "''
:Uh, OK. So he is proven wrong thanks to new information, and so should not be used again as a source? I don't think so. There are numerous bits of outdated information in Sansom's three volumes of history on Japan, should we throw those in the garbage too?--AngusH 01:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What the article says is that the "exploding bomb is an anachronism has now been demolished by solid archaeological evidence".  It does not say his interpretation of the artwork is wrong and even if it were - this is the realm of historical research and opinion.  New finds, new information change old ideas.  Artwork and manuscripts were altered in both China and Japan quite commonly (in the West also).  Figures added, poetry overlayed.  Think of a medival wiki.  Its not a question of fake but when something was added.  As I understand it he made his supposition on style and composition rather than an assumption that bombs were not used.  The article goes out of its way to describe most of his premis as masterful.  His expressed ideas about samurai (which is what this is about) are not unique to him or other Western historians.Peter Rehse 10:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Oh please. I just finished reading his monograph State of War: The Violent Order of Fourteenth-Century Japan and it was a fascinating read, with each statement and conclusion he states backed up using primary sources. I hardly think that someone going for publicity would be writing about the 14th century anyway, as it's a specialist field that few outside of enthusiast even care about... --AngusH 00:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Sad Truth About Thomas Conlan--   why would you want to use him as a source? 

message: I moved the biographical information on Kato to his own, already existing, biography page.  That's what links are for.  The article is already quite long.Peter Rehse 04:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biographical Information 

message: Hey guys, i dont mean to start a p*ssing contest here, but each lord has a small intro after each quote to describe who he is and a little bit about his persona.  This is very important information.  If it is okay with you, Lord Kato, probably one of the most impressive Samurai, had his intro stripped off with no discussion.  I would like to add that back.  I am the person who wrote pretty much this entire page in its current form.  If we dont have this intro, it leaves out A LOT of very important details about how Japan ended up in history.
:I'm the guy that moved your description to Kato Kiyomasa's own page (please read the discussion point above).  I liked what was written but I really do think it belongs there rather than  the Bushido section.  As I said above that is what links are all about.  If we had a similar length addition for everyone mentioned in that article it would be problematic.  As it stands now your text is repeated in two places and should be removed from one of them.    I'll leave it to you but perhaps you could modify the sentence which first mentions Kato and leave the expansion in the Kato Kiyomasa biography page.  Right now the description of the man is longer than what he says about Bushido - more than the usual small intro.Peter Rehse 05:04, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I also didn't realize how much you did contribute to the article.  I didn't mean to step on toes.Peter Rehse 05:14, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem.  I'll remove the paragraph from the biography page to sooth my hatred of redundancy so we will be back where we were before.  I don't think people are disputing the existance of codes on honor (by whatever name) but there is a bit of reactionism against over romantization.  For every example of the higher ideal there is another of the more base.  Nitobe tried showing the west how alike Bushido and Chivilry were in the good sense, but one does have to ask how the average knight or samurai behaved.  I don't know who it was that critisized Karl Friday above (the advantages of registration) but he lived and studied in Japan, studied one of the older Koryu (has a menkyo kaiden), and has probably read the same texts in Japanese.  He certainly doesn't make the case that codes of conduct didn't exist - just that they weren't universily followed.Peter Rehse 05:51, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The article is "Bushidó or Bull? A Medieval Historian’s Perspective on the Imperial Army and the Japanese Warrior Tradition". Not Bushido is Bull.  It is complete with references to both English and Japanese articles and makes an interesting and pretty convincing case.  The main thrust is a comparison between what the Imperial Army defined and glorified as Bushido and what the medieval samurai knew as such.  If anything his case is that the behaviour of the Japanese imperial army during WWII was a propagandistic corruption of the Japanese Warrior Tradition.  I would certainly like to think so.  I personally think Dr. Karl Friday does a very good job and would recommend his books.  "Hired Swords: The Rise of Private Warrior Power in Japan." is a bit academic, while Legacies of the Sword: The Kashima-Shinryu and Samurai Martial Culture is mainly about the Koryu he trained in while studying history in Japan.  I never got the impression that he was not intimately familiar with his area of expertise which extends far beyond English language sources.  I'm pretty sure he has read the same stuff you have and far more (ie Japanese sources).  Not trying to put Karl Friday up or your perspective down but I really don't see him disagreeing with your overall thesis.  I will say that accusing him of not cracking a book or looking things up is a bit off.Peter Rehse 08:39, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Personally I am not that hung up on the word.  If a different term was used to describe essentially the same thing during different periods that is fine.  Just as point of discussion, the defections to Tokugawa were not only decisive but a clear example of a failure to follow the ideals of Bushido (ie loyalty).  Historically intances of ideals being set aside for convenience abound.  This is, in my opinion, an important consideration when describing the who and what the samurai were.  Of course this article is about Bushido not all aspects of the samurai.Peter Rehse 07:08, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please allow intro for Kato Kiyomasa 

message: I cant find any mention of Samurai Creed in Japanese Literature.  I think this is a modern invention and should be omitted
:People posting here seem to have the bad habit of not identifying themselves.
:Bathrobe 07:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to "Samurai Creed" should be reconsidered 

message: This page (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/TOKJAPAN/NEO.HTM) has the following passage about Yamaga Soko. Would be interested in any comments on the passage, which seems to be at odds with the idea that Bushido was already current before the Edo period. Is the passage totally off the mark, and if it is, how does Yamaga Soko fit into the overall picture -- perhaps a reformulator or restater of the code of Bushido?
*Yamaga Soko was parroting the REAL warriors whom he studied under.  There is nothing wrong with this. However, to get a accurate picture of how the Takeda, for example, thought and acted in real war times, you can read their written works.  I would never consider Yamago Soko a source of anything original or anything having to do with creating bushido.   Whoever wrote the above article was a novice and completely erronous. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. 
*This is the main misconception of western scholars.  They rely on English translations from the few sources available, Satow, Mitford, Chamberlain, Hearn and a small handful of others.  These sources were usually from the late-19th century.  In my opinion, and this is backed by the research of the writers quoted in the wikipedia/Bushido page, the writings of the academics in the west are based on  only the limited works translated into English.
*At some point, some western academics realized Bushido DID exist long ago and they now had to find a way to cover up the mistakes of the papers and essays they had written based on the works of Chamberlain.  So what was done was to strictly interpret Bushido by saying that the criteria was that it has to be in writing, it has to contain strict codes or laws etc.  Then, they had to contend with the fact that Wilson and Streenstrup had actually sought out Japanese experts and translated the Kakun or Samurai House codes and found that pretty much all of the tenets of Yamaga Soko's Bushido were already in place from the 10th or 12th century onwards.  This was a major disaster and embarassment for western academia. All of the major tenets of Bushido occur in the Kakun of the warrior houses: Loyalty, duty, good manners/etiqutte/politeness, education, filial piety,honesty, hard work, humility, etc.  In fact, the warriors were rewarded based on loyalty.  They were also under orders to strive towards this ideal, in addition to being raised in a household with these values.  Keeping in mind that the warriors did come from a wide variety of geography and socio-economic backgrounds, it is amazing how constant bushido remained.  This article in BBC has a fairly good write up on samurai except for the section on Bushido.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A663077
*Now I am no appologist for the crazy Imperial line listed in the early Japanese texts like the Kojiki (The early emperors lived to be more than 109 years old), but the "bushido didnt exist" essay is way out of line and easily contradicted by the warriors own written laws. 
*Yamaga Soko re-emphasized and reinterpreted confucianism.  There were several waves of both religion and philosophy which came from China over the previous centuries.  At first it was the elite who studied Buddhism and the written classics of China.  Then it filtered down to the lower classes.
::"Perhaps the most important cultural application of Confucianism in Japan was the invention of bushido or "the way of the warrior," an invention of Yamaga Soko (1622-1685). Like Kumazawa, Yamaga was a ronin , a samurai without allegiance to any specific lord. Now the samurai class was a rough and illiterate class in medieval Japan; their job was simply to fight.
*This passage tries to oversimplify history.  By the medieval period, the Japanese culture had already developed and the warriors already had an ideal of a literate person to strive for. This description would more fit the warriors before the Medieval period and they were not even called Samurai.  BY "Medieval", i am assuming that the writer means roughly between 1300 to 1575AD.
*Wilson states that the Warrior Ideal was in place in the Heike Monogatari which was written about 12th century warriors:
Elegant, and yet unwincing at the prospect of death, he he lived and died as both courtier and manly warrior.
And, at the declaration of his death,
Friends and foes alike wet their sleeves with tears and said, "What a pity! Tadanori was a great general, pre-eminent in the arts of both sword and poetry." (Kitagawa and Tsuchida, 1975)
The warriors in the Heike Monogatari served as models for the educated warriors of later generations, and the ideals depicted by them were not assumed to be beyond reach. Rather, these ideals were vigorously pursued in the upper echelons of warrior society and recommended as the proper form of the Japanese man of arms. With the Heike Monogatari, the image of the Japanese warrior in literature came to its full maturity.
But Tokugawa Japan was a period of domestic peace, so the samurai class found themselves with little to do. In addition, the Tokugawa regime, in an effort to guarantee peace, rigidly enforced class distinctions and made the samurai class an important class in this system. The purpose was to prevent the large-scale arming of commoners by individual lords trying to raise an army; if you make the warrior class an exclusive class with certain privileges (only the warrior class could bear arms) and if you don't allow entrance by non-warriors into that class, you can keep territorial armies at a reasonable size. These two developments—the creation of warriors as an exclusive and privileged class and the lack of any productive labor for these warriors to do—led to a redefinition of the samurai: their purpose, their character, and their ethical standards.
*There were short periods of social mobility in Japanese society.  Hideyoshi was from a lower class background and rose up to be one of the great leaders of the country.  He later banned social mobility and confiscated weapons in his famous sword hunt.  Other than that, the classes of people were already fixed.  Again, this article oversimplfies,  there were some samurai who did labor jobs and farming when they had to, but those employed by the larger clans were professional warriors. During the Tokugawa era, rebellions were suppressed by using "Sankin Kotai" (alternate attendance) whereby the feudal lord had to spend time as a hostage on alternate years in EDo and then trade places with his wife and children back home.  The lords were organized into "Inner and outer" lords where the lords perceived as loyal to Ieyasu were placed in the outlying regions of Japan and the rest placed strategically nearby.  travel became stricly controlled on the roads and checkpoints kept track of a persons travel along the path.  The Tokugawa instituted a police state, and had a massive intelligence network of spies.  Intermarriage and political alliances cemented loyalties. (Marrying your enemies daughter or son into your family as a hostage).  The high cost of the alternate attendance to most feudal lords kept them from causing trouble.   These are the true methods used to prevent rebellion, not locking social mobility as the author above implies.
*Wilson states that Hideyoshi, not Tokugawa, closed the classes and social mobility:
The image of the aristocratic warrior described in the early chronicles tells only part of the story. Although many of its leaders came from aristocratic or even imperial lineage, the ranks of the samurai class were bolstered by the low class ashigaru (foot soldier), who did not share the cultural background or economic means of his betters. Still, some of these men and their families came up through the ranks rewarded for ability or feats of courage. They became, if not aristocrats, upper-class warriors and generals. This phenomenon was most pronounced during the Warring States Period, and the extreme example would be that of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who rose from a very low estate to be the most powerful ruler in the country. Ironically, this was the same man who, beginning with the famous "sword hunt" of 1588 and through an edict in 1591, closed the social mobility by which he and others had risen, enclosing Japanese society within the four classes of warriors, farmers, artisans and merchants.
here are some good books about Hideyoshi:
Life of Toyotomi Hideyoshiby Walter Denning (former Ambassador to Japan)
Hideyoshiby Mary Elizabeth Berry 
::Both Kumazawa and Yamaga were deeply concerned about the constant inactivity of the samurai, and Yamaga went about defining what the samurai in times of peace should be doing with all that free time they found on their hands. The purpose of the samurai class according to Yamaga is to serve as a model for the rest of society; 
*Read the writings I have posted which predate Yamaga Soko.  The lords consider themselves as role models for the other classes and encouraged polite respectful behavior.  
*In time of peace and prosperity, culture flourished and the warriors began to indulge in activites other than fighting: art, noh drama, poetry, calligraphy, more so than in the past.  They also had time for more introspection and self analysis, which is why Yamaga Soko had time to write.
in School of Mind Neo-Confucianism it is not enough to understand moral behavior, one must put it into action for to be truly moral. The samurai would serve as a model of cultural, moral, and intellectual development; in particular, the samurai would exemplify a devotion to duties (giri ) and unswerving loyalty. The moral life of the samurai would center around the obligations he has willingly agreed to meet for his lord; his life would be one of temperance, self-sacrifice, high discipline, and fearlessness, particularly fearlessness in the face of death. In addition to these qualities, the samurai would cultivate intellectual, cultural, and political arts; the new role for the samurai, as Yamaga saw it, was to assume political and intellectual leadership. This new educated and politically savvy class would eventually tear down the Tokugawa bakufu and invent a new, centralized government around the figure of the emperor in the late nineteenth century.
*This role was already in place after the 12th century.  The southern samurai clans had their own intentions for the overthrow of the Tokugawa:  They were still mad after 268 years at having their land taken by the Tokugawa.  As soon as Saigo and the other Southern Samurai realized that the Meiji Emporer was abolishing their class and their right to bear arms, they rebelled.  (Saigo was the most powerful man in Japan at one point, as secretary general of the Japanese imperial army)
It is fitting that these samurai leading the Meiji Restoration and government also led the charge in adopting Western social and political models, for Yamaga Soko was one of the first Japanese intellectuals to call for the adoption of Western technology, a warning that went largely unheeded until Commodore Perry sailed up with his gunboats in 1853. The term, bushido would in later years be applied to Yamaga's writings on the role and character of the samurai, which he called shido (the way of the samurai) and bukyo (the warrior's creed)."
*This was done so as to avoid military defeat.  The Samurai wanted access to modern military weapons to keep up with the western nations.  Yamaga Soko's "Shido" was less radical than bushido
See also http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9077755 and, of course, the Wikipedia article Yamaga Soko. This is not a troll, it is a serious question.
Bathrobe 11:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yamaga Soko

message: Is it really necessary to tell the 47 Ronin tale in its entirety in this article?  I think the link to just the 47 Ronin article would work just fine by itself. Bueller 007 05:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Akoroshi 

message: ::: Another suggestion to improve this article would be to actually make a separate article on the literature of Bushido, such that the flow of the article is not interupted by the exerpts (which in my mind are useful, but are not essential to the main thrust). That way, if the reader is interested, they can explore rather than being force-fed too much information in one hit. Also there are a lot of sections that can either be broken up (also onto other pages) or are replicating existing pages. We should aim to be concise - with every section (and every entry) relating specifically to Bushido, and not to Japanese history per se.
Does any one have a particular objection to this suggestion?--OzzieB 23:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs to be split over several pages 

message: I've been moving material (hopefully not annoying too many people) to the Bushido literature page - however I can't help but feel that there is another significant problem. The page contains rather lengthy sections on individual samurai, but I'm not sur that they really fit within a Bushido page (and if so, should be greatly shortend, and limited to those aspects of Bushido that they encapsulate). I would recommend that sections such as dealing with Kato Kiyomasa (as an example) be moved. Where there aren't existing pages for these peronages, I think we should create new ones, but in the above example there is already a page. I would not feel comfortable however just copying this over complete into those pages... Any comments?--OzzieB 09:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation of Samurai warrior histories 

message: Converted inline external links to the prefered inline references.  Trimmed out duplications from external links and further reading.  I think several of the external links can be converted to inline references to make them more relevant.Peter Rehse 05:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links and Inline references

message: What has happened to the old talk page? It was supposed to be archived; now it's nowhere to be found.
Bathrobe 01:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archives

message: Looks like article was missing a "references" section, so I added one.  Also added two "unreferenced section" tags for the two sections lacking references.  Someone possessing the literature that is mentioned should add inline citations with page numbers. Bradford44 14:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: So, how about Bushido in the 20th century? Why there is nothing about this period of utmost importance?Martinso 12:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No-one's addressed this in the article, and this talk page is a nightmare of disagreement, so I guess that no-one's up to the task. I suppose the topic is problematic partly because the Imperial Japanese military overinflated and mythologised the concept of bushido during WW2 to the point where to this day people confuse the ideal and the reality. For example Seven Samurai was apparently criticised on release for it's portrayal of the samurai as underhanded and unheroic, contrary to the nostalgic, revisionist and absolute perception of bushido at the time. (Akira Kurosawa incidentally came from a samurai family, and presumably was aqcuainted with the real thing.) RayBarker (talk) 02:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 20th Century Bushido

message: Can we find a better source than this? I'm quite dubious that a roleplaying supplement counts as a reliable source. --DrHacky 06:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why I removed it the first time. -Jéské (Blah v^_^v) 07:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unearthed Arcana 

message: As usual with most articles on Japan or Japanese culture, there are significant discernible efforts of down-playing their Chinese roots. Bushido is simply 'wu shi dao', almost a wholesale copying of ancient chinese thoughts and philospohy, although better refined and preserved in its Japanese setting.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.163.208.50 (talk) 23:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that a more balanced viewpoint is needed here, do you have sources? Bradford44 (talk) 12:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree, this approach is very simplistic and ignores scholarship from the last two decades (like Shinto, though, Bushido wasn't exactly invented out of nothing). The part about Early History is especially weak, and the Kokinshu reference seems pointless (is it just the first occurrence of the verb saburau?)! If I have time I may try to track down some sources... Aristophocles (talk) 03:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bushido is an invented tradition 

message: First of all, Masaru, I think we're all grateful for the time you've put into this article, and the painstaking presentation of your sources. It's really helpful to know where you're coming from and why the article has come out the way it has. No one on this site should be attacking you for all the sources you've included - it may be a little cumbersome, but that's not a big problem.
What IS a problem is that Wikipedia is by nature a corporate enterprise. There are alot of people interested in this article and interested in putting forth what they think is a more balanced view of Bushido. If you disagree with them, that is completely fine; even so, the nature of wikipedia is that when everyone puts in their own take on an issue, what comes out is the most balanced article possible. I think some of the frustration we see in this talk page is that it seems like one person is monopolizing a page that should be accessible to change by all. The people who want to edit the page are not attacking you, they just want to make the article more readable or a more balanced introduction to someone not familiar with the topic.
The criticism that Nick, Bradford and I have leveled is that Bushido is something that changed over time. Just because warriors during Sengoku quoted the classics doesn't mean that Bushido was something that had existed unchanged since the ancient period. What it meant to be a warrior was being reinterpreted in the medieval and early modern period. Whether or not this is a completely "invented" tradition, the way Bushido is talked about in the Edo period is often at variance with the way actual warriors acted in the ancient and medieval periods.
The sources I'm talking about are the work that has been done in the last few decades (most of the secondary scholarship on this page only goes up to the 1970s) by Martin Collcutt, Thomas Conlan, Cameron Hurst, and general history by Jeff Mass and his group. These scholars have looked at documents from the medieval period (for example, the picture scroll of Takezaki Suenaga) and concluded that up until the Edo period, most warriors did not really practice loyalty to their lords in battle. Often they would switch sides, or even refuse to fight, if they thought they would not be rewarded properly. This is one of the things that happened at Sekigahara.
If other people interested in this site agree, I'll post on this talk page some comments and references that can be put into the main article later. Please respond to this note (in a good-natured way) if you have anything to contribute to this discussion.
Thanks! Aristophocles (talk) 17:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: NOTE TO ALL USERS INTERESTED IN THIS ARTICLE

message: THE MESSAGE OF MASTER GOKURAKUJI 
                      
Hojo Shigetoki (1198-1261 A.D.)
THE CHIKUBASHO 
                                                      
Shiba Yoshimasa (1350-1410 A.D.)
THE REGULATIONS OF IMAGAWA RYOSHUN 
                  
Imagawa Sadayo (1325-1420 A.D.)
THE SEVENTEEN ARTICLES OF ASAKURA TOSHIKAGE  
   
Asakura Toshikage (1428-1481 A.D.)
THE TWENTY-ONE PRECEPTS OF HOJO SOUN  
                
Hojo Nagauji (1432-1519 A.D.)
THE RECORDED WORDS OF ASAKURA SOTEKI  
             
Asakura Norikage (1474-1555 A.D.)
THE IWAMIZUDERA MONOGATARI     
                            
Takeda Shingen (1521-1573 A.D.)
OPINIONS IN NINETY-NINE ARTICLES   
                        
Takeda Nobushige (1525-1561 A.D.)
LORD NABESHIMA'S WALL INSCRIPTIONS 
                   
Nabeshima Naoshige (1538-1618 A.D.)
THE LAST STATEMENT OF TORII MOTOTADA   
              
Torn Mototada (1539-1600 A.D.)
THE PRECEPTS OF KATO KIYOMASA    
                         
Kato Kiyomasa (1562-1611 A.D.)
NOTES ON REGULATIONS   
                                         
Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623 A.D.)
These are the biblio sources cited in wilson's text and were the basis for this page.  The work consists of several translations (12) from the "Buke No Kakun" and demonstrate a clear common core set of values dating from 12th century to the 16th century.  The writings span hundreds of years, geography, social class and writing style--yet share a common set of values.  Wilson goes even further by examining the earliest Japanese writings in the 8th century. (Kojiki, Shoku Nihongi(797AD),the Kokinshu (early 10th century), Konjaku Monogatari (CA 1106ad), The Heike Monogatari) as well as the Chinese Classics  (the Analects, the Great Learning, the Doctrine of the Mean, and the Mencius.(CA 500BC))
Along with Wilson, Dr. Carl Streenstrup did extensive research into the ethical codes of famous Samurai clans including Hojo Soun and Imagawa Ryoshun. Steenstrup's dissertation at Harvard University was entitled Hôjô Shigetoki (1198–1261) and his Role in the History of Political and Ethical Ideas in Japan. 
Both Wilson and Steenstrup devoted their entire lifetimes to bring this information to the English speaking world.
(Excerpt from the November 20, 2005 Miami Herald article announcing Wilson's award from the Consulate General of Japan)
Wilson said that his first trip to Japan was an awakening.
I had not known what I was doing with my life, said Wilson, who lives in South Miami. ``When I got there, I knew it was going to be there I would spend my energies.
He developed a particular interest in the Japanese samurai culture. Wilson said these samurai warriors, who controlled Japan for about 800 years, embodied courage, honor, loyalty and sincerity, which became important values in Japan. The warriors were cultured men who were also painters and poets, he said.
They were people that were involved in a very straight-forward philosophy of life and death, courage and conviction and sincerity, he said.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.204.111 (talk) 06:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Works cited in this page 

message: Training the Samurai Mind: A Bushido Sourcebook by Thomas Cleary 288 pages Shambhala (May 13, 2008) ISBN-10: 1590305728 ISBN-13: 978-1590305720  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 07:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  additional works cited on this page--History of Japanese Feudal Law--Sources 

message: Adkins site of photos of sengaku-ji is one of the best on the web.  How could you not find relevence of having links to it on the Bushido page?  Sengaku-ji is a part of the 47 ronin story, THE national story of Japan and one of the ultimate examples of Bushido in Japanese history.  It is a disservice to wikipedia readers to remove these important links.  The second link demonstrates the reverence of the people three hundred years later to the ako-gishi and their adherence to the Bushido ideal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.204.111 (talk) 12:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Mostly because link #1 was directed at the picture section (which is all I saw the first time around) and link #2 was for a picture essay also (Which served no usefulness to the article what so ever).  Additionally there are articles specifically for sengaku-ji and the Forty-seven Ronin. --ShakataGaNai (talk) 16:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sengaku-ji photos should be included 

message: All of the following quotes come from Sengoku Era or earlier warlords.  These examples demonstrate the dual influence of Buddhism and Confucianism on the development of Bushido  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.204.111 (talk) 05:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bushido--Relevant quotes in history 

message: Medieval historical documents
* Tens of thousands of documents survive from the medieval period. While only a few have been translated into English, or are likely ever to appear in translation, it seems only proper to make references to some notable translations here. Many of the texts have no title as such, appearing in numbered collections of documents like Kamakura ibun. Even when texts have been given a name, their titles are unfamiliar to most of us, and in any case many are translated as examples of a certain kind of document. Although a variety of different works are included here, they are listed simply in reverse chronological order of publication.
* Conlan, Thomas. "The Nature of Warfare in Fourteenth-Century Japan: The Record of Nomoto Tomoyuki." Journal of Japanese Studies, 25: 2. (Summer, 1999), 299-330. [Discussion with translations of a document "summarizing numerous petitions [for military reward,  gunchûjô] and reports of arrival [chakutôjô] written from 1335 to 1337," p. 302] *add KANJI for terms
* Steenstrup, Carl. "Sata Mirensho: A Fourteenth-Century Law Primer." MN 35: 4 (Winter, 1980), 405-435. [Compiled in Kamakura sometime between 1319 and 1322. Trans. of Sata Mirensho 沙汰未練書 ("A Book for Those Unskilled in Legal Matters") from p. 408. Complete romanized transcription included.]
* Steenstrup, Carl. "The Gokurakuji Letter. Hôjô Shigetoki's Compendium of Political and Religious Ideas of Thirteenth-Century Japan " MN 32: 1 (Spring, 1977), 1-34. [Second surviving buke kakun 武家家訓読,  warrior family precepts, "committed to writing by the head of an ichimon, that is, a hierachically organized lineage of a main family and its branch families, for the benefit of his successors" (p. 1).  Trans. of Gokurakuji-dono go-shôsoku  極楽寺殿御消息 ("The Gokurakuji Letter") by Hôjô Shigetoki 北条重時 (1198-1261) from p. 7.)
* Steenstrup, Carl. "The Imagawa Letter: A Muromachi Warrior's Code of Conduct Which Became a Tokugawa Schoolbook." MN 28: 3(Autumn, 1973), 295-316. [Imagawa-jô 今川状 ("The Imagawa Letter"), also called Gusoku Nakaaki Seishi Jôjô 愚息仲秋制詞條々 ("Articles of Admonition by Imagawa Ryôshun to His Son Nakaaki"),  and Imagawa Heikisho 今川壁書 (p. 295, ftn. 6). Attributed to Imagawa Sadayo 今川貞世 or Ryôshun 了俊 (1325-1420). Translation from p. 299. )
* Steenstrup, Carl. "Hôjo Sôun's Twenty-One Articles. The Code of Conduct of the Odawara Hôjô." MN 29: 3 (Autumn, 1974), 283-303. [Hôjô Sôun 北条早雲 (1432-1519), a "self-made daimyo with an unusual career" (p. 283). The Articles lay down "standards for the political and private behavior of the 'later Hôjô'" (p. 287). Trans. of Sôunjidono nijûichi kajô 早雲寺殿廿一箇条 ("Twenty-One Articles by Lord Sôun") from p. 289.]
*  Steenstrup, Carl. " [ ] ." Acta Orientalia XXXVI (Copenhagen, 1974). [Translations of first buke kakun (warrior family precept, see above), "The Letter to Nagatoki" (Rokuhara Sagami no kami no shisoku wo oshiuru...jô 六波羅相模守ノ教子息...状), written between 1237 and 1247, pp. 417-38. Reference in Streenstup 1977, MN 32:1, p. 2, ftn. 7. (n.s.)]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.204.111 (talk) 07:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Works by Dr. Carl Steenstrup 

message: We don't need to know the detailed academic degrees of the sources in the lead section.  Inline comment moved to talk: —Viriditas | Talk 14:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs serious cleanup 

message: Q. How old is Bushido?
A. According to the Japanese dictionary Shogakukan Kokugo Daijiten, "Bushidō is defined as a unique philosophy (ronri) that spread through the warrior class from the Muromachi (chusei) period." Bushidō developed between the 9th to 12th centuries and numerous translated documents dating from the 12th to 16th centuries demonstrate its influence.
Q. Was there a universal code of behavior for Samurai?
A. Yes. Because of the influence of Confucianism, Buddhism and Shinto, there were common traits. These included loyalty, duty, honor as well as modesty, politeness and consideration for others. (see the above examples) Samurai were raised to be literate and their main area of study was the Confucian classics. The values were imbued into samurai during their upbringing.
Q. Did Bushido change much over the centuries?
A. No. Bushido was surprisingly static and uniform. In fact, it probably grew tamer during the peaceful Tokugawa (Edo) Period. Read the above examples.
This description from the Kojiki (712AD) of the idealized warrior was written well before the term "Bushido" was invented: "Yamato Takeru may be considered the rough ideal of the Japanese warrior to come. He is sincere and loyal, slicing up his father's enemies "like melons," unbending and yet not unfeeling, as can be seen in his laments for lost wives and homeland, and in his willingness to combat the enemy alone."
Wilson states that Yamato Takeru's portrayal in the Kojiki "indicates that the ideal of harmonizing the literary with the martial may have been an early trait of Japanese civilization, appealing to the Japanese long before its introduction from Confucian China."
From The Heike Monogatari is this idealized description of the literate warrior:
Friends and foes alike wet their sleeves with tears and said,
"What a pity! Tadanori was a great general,
pre-eminent in the arts of both sword and poetry."
(Kitagawa and Tsuchida, 1975)
Q. Did Samurai emphasize loyalty to their masters?
A. Yes. Samurai often served a lord and his ancestors for several generations. However, the Daimyo often made alliances with other lords and these loyalties DID shift according to convenience, military dominance, or reward. Loyalty to one's immediate Lord was a common theme from the earliest Japanese historical writings and many feudal lords emphasized this in writing from the 13th century onward.
Q. Did early Samurai pledge loyalty to the Emperor of Japan?
A. Yes. Some Families existed solely to guard the imperial family. Others were descended from it, intermarried with it and sent volunteers to guard it. This was done to gain some measure of influence over the Imperial Family or to gain prestige from association with it. Some Samurai families felt stronger loyalty to the emperor than to the Shogun. All of the major military leaders such as Hideyoshi or Tokugawa had to obtain titles from the Emperor to at least gain the appearance of legitimate leadership. The Emperor was a figurehead leader for most of history with little actual power.
Q. Did the Samurai emphasize "the way of the warrior is death" before the 17th century?
A.  Yes, of course they did.  See the examples above.  Not only did they say that "it is a matter of regret to let the day when one should die pass by" They often looked forward to an almost reckless death or "throwing one's life away" in the service of the Emperor or their feudal lord.  Historians such as G. Cameron Hurst III,Karl Friday, and Thomas Conlan have tried to state the opposite, however this is simply not the case because several examples exist in writing.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.40.77 (talk) 19:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  THE BUSHIDO FAQ (this will be updated periodically) 

message: They aren't working. Just thought I'd let you guys know. If someone could fix them, it would be helpful.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.63.250.148 (talk) 20:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to Bushido literature 

message: Any opposition OR criticism to this kind of "way"? Like Ninjitsu entirely opposing the bushido in real life combat, how stupid this "way" would be to others etc.
Ninjutsu was merely another art in the Samurai arsenal. This is typical 15 year old video game playing westerner's misconceptions of Japanese history. Please do not deface the articles.
user:68.6.204.111
"Ninjutsu was merely another art in the Samurai arsenal. This is typical 15 year old video game playing westerner's misconceptions of Japanese history. Please do not deface the articles."
What are you ON ABOUT?!
Ninjitsu and Samurai are to different things; not to mention that they have the most opposite polarities!!!!
When on Earth does the Bushido is related to a video game?!
I just only put npov there...because there's no criticism of the "way" and... not every warrior at the time were happy enough to follow the "way", which was some of the reasons why some resort to ninjitsu. Ninja's a the Samurai's worst enemy. Get it Straight!
--Hey lameass, from wikipedia's own entry for Ninja, It says they served the Samurai lords: "perhaps in the service of their feudal rulers (daimyo, shogun)"
(not that I advocate using wikipedia for a source without extensive corroboration)     —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.204.111 (talk) 05:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV? No criticism...?