Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive 11

message: Francis, first, I think this discussion should be incorporated in the history section, not the intro. Given the complexity of the period, and the fact that the status of NK was unsettled until July 1921, it's more appropriate to use a neutral wording in the intro that does not imply prior ownership of NK by either Azerbaijan or Armenia. Otherwise, if we include one decision by Kavburo in the intro, we should include others for the sake of completeness. Therefore, I think we should keep the current short sentence in the intro, as it is neutral.
Second, I want to make a note about the supposed "neutrality" of the COE paper. The paper, as you can see from PDF file, is an appendix to Atkinson's report--who was criticized (including by Russian diplomat Kazimiorv) for his pro-Azeri bias. I think there is a reason why Atkinson chose this particular account of events--the paper selectively includes some dates while excluding others--i.e. it excludes the Nov 30, June 3, and July 4 decisions to recognize NK as part of Armenia, and instead includes the December 2nd Azeri decision to grant NK a self-determination (i.e. referendum--note that COE makes a mistake in the date--saying that it was done in November). 
If you read the paper, you will see that it heavily relies on Azeri sources, especially for the period in question (i.e. early 1900's-1920's). On page 18, to portray the events in 1910's, it uses the official Azeri map. On page 21, to show the modern line of contact, it again uses an official Azeri map (with the title "Armenian Aggression"). One wonders--why there is no Armenian map for that period? On page 18, when describing the ethnic conflict of 1918, it only reports the Azeri casualties as reported by Azeris. No mention of Armenian casualties. On the same page, when describing the 1905 Azeri-Armenian conflict, it only talks about the Azeri villages being burnt, again as reported by Azeri sources. No talk about Armenian losses. You can see the pattern throughout the paper. And in the end, we have a letter from Azeri embassy--nothing from Armenia. 
In sum, it seems the paper heavily relied on Azeri sources, which explains the selective account of the dates in late 1920--early 1921. I am not saying the paper is completely false, I am just saying that, as with anything in the universe, we should assume bias, and not take the phrasings used in the paper as fact. 
Finally, about your suggested paragraph. As I said before, due to complexity of the era, and the unsettled nature of NK's status up until July 1921, we should discuss that in the history section. In doing so, we still should not use terms that assume prior ownership of NK. Therefore, I oppose the sentence "Nagorno-Karabakh was given autonomy within the Azerbaijan SSR"--sounds like the region was *already* in Azerbaijan when it was given the autonomy. I think we should use the following:
In the intro, keep the current version:
:The Soviet Union incorporated the predominantly Armenian region as the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) in the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.
In the History section, I propose the following paragraph:
: After coming under Bolshevik control, the predominantly Armenian region was first recognized as part of Armenia. Shortly afterwards, Azerbaijan SSR issued a modified proclamation, suggesting to grant the region the right of self-determination. On June 3, 1921, the Caucasus Bureau of the Russian Communist Party recognized Nagorno-Karabakh as part of Armenia. The Bureau confirmed the decision on July 4. On July 5, the Bureau passed a new resolution, demanding that Nagorno-Karabakh be incorporated in Azerbaijan SSR with broad autonomy. The decision was implemented in 1923, with the creation of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast in Azerbaijan SSR, which was to last until the collapse of the Soviet Union.
--TigranTheGreat 08:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. Of course we should remove the word “incorporated” from the intro, since there’s not a single reliable document to support such wording. The original resolution of Kavburo is available, and therefore everyone can check what it said. The history section should include the full quotes from those resolutions and let the readers decide what they said. That would be perfectly neutral. Personal interpretations should be kept out of the article. The same applies to Tigran’s attempt to present CoE as pro-Azeri, while it is an authoritative and neutral organization. The fact that former Russian ambassador Kazimirov criticized Atkinson does not mean anything, Kazimirov himself is very well known for his negative role in the conflict. In fact, he was the one who threatened the Azeri government that Russia would supply weapons to Armenia, if Azerbaijan does not make concessions to Russia in the oil sector. So criticism by such person means nothing at all. Also of note that Tigran himself refers to Armenian sources only, including the website of Armenian separatists and Armenian MP Starovoytova and does not cite a single neutral source. Of course such sources cannot be accepted as reliable. I also quoted the original text of Kavburo resolution from that website, but only to show that it is not misquoted by the Azeri sources. You can find the same document in an Azeri source here  It is one thing to quote a historical document, and another thing to refer to the opinion of people who have strong bias in this issue. Grandmaster 08:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: That does not follow. The only reason why I quoted the document from the Armenian separatist site was to show that the Azeri websites don’t misquote the same resolution. It is one thing to quote a historical document, and absolutely different thing to refer to the opinion of a source with an obvious bias. I think that Azeri and Armenian sources should be rejected due to obvious bias. And incorporated is an interpretation, not shared by other sources. Therefore we should ignore the interpretations and cite the original resolution and let the reader judge. Grandmaster 09:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The current version is not accurate. - FrancisTyers · 15:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How? Fad (ix) 15:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to say until everyone is happy with the timeline for the period. - FrancisTyers · 15:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually it wasn't mine, but Grandmaster's, I think it is about the Treaty of December regarding Zankezur and not the others, which was reverted anyway later. Potier is not clear as he isen't specific. And I have never been able to find which Treaty he is refering to or any dates, the Armenian Communist Leader speak of threats by Narimanov to drop Karabakh, which is the only document which could be there. I would suggest deleting it until we find the date, but I won't have any problem to keep it if Grandmaster insist, but it will be difficult to place it somewhere chronologically speaking. Fad (ix) 21:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More discussion

message: If you think Francis that this does not belong here, feel free to move it.
The Timeline is interesting, but I reinterate that this:
The Soviet Union incorporated the predominantly Armenian region as the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) in the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.
Is the best option, for those reasons.
*1)The most important event in the chronology is the official formation of the Oblast, and which is the only according to me that is enough important to be included in the intro.
*2)The entry is NK and not NKAO, the subject is NK and what it is and what happened to it. Words like established could be interesting in an intro of an entry about NKAO, but not NK, the intro of the entry about NK should say what happened to NK. And what happened to it is that it was incorporated as the NKAO...
*3)This current wording does not say to which side it was prior, it only say what happened of NK, which is prefect because we don't need hundreds of clarifications and chronologies in the lead.
*4)The intro and the article is more than enought political, we don't need to politise it even more.
*5)To replace this current version, a better one taking in account the above 4 points should be proposed, which has not been done. Fad (ix) 15:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The current version is not accurate. - FrancisTyers · 15:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How? Fad (ix) 15:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to say until everyone is happy with the timeline for the period. - FrancisTyers · 15:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually it wasn't mine, but Grandmaster's, I think it is about the Treaty of December regarding Zankezur and not the others, which was reverted anyway later. Potier is not clear as he isen't specific. And I have never been able to find which Treaty he is refering to or any dates, the Armenian Communist Leader speak of threats by Narimanov to drop Karabakh, which is the only document which could be there. I would suggest deleting it until we find the date, but I won't have any problem to keep it if Grandmaster insist, but it will be difficult to place it somewhere chronologically speaking. Fad (ix) 21:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: I can't read Russian, but regardless, the Assembly document seems more reliable. The source mentions several pertinent points:
# In November 1920, the Azerbaijan Revolutionary Committee ... granted N-K the right to self-determination.
# In July 1921, the Bolshevik Party Caucasus Bureau reversed the above decision.
# N-K was granted a broad autonomy within the newly created Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic.
# In 1923, the N-K Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) was established.
So, what can we do with this information. Well, we can clearly see that both sentences leave out some important details.  So, lets try with this:
After coming under Bolshevik control, the region was initially granted the right of self-determination. This was revoked in under a year, following this, Nagorno-Karabakh was given autonomy within the Azerbaijan SSR. The Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, which was to last until the collapse of the Soviet Union, was established in 1923. At the time, the region was predominently populated by Armenians.
I welcome your comments. Do not reply to each other. Just give comments, suggestions and sources. Do not quote. - FrancisTyers · 20:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: [Fadix' contribution moved upward. - FrancisTyers · 21:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Just one thing. I think the history of creation of NKAO should be described in detail in the history section. The intro should only briefly mention that NKAO was created or established in 1923. Grandmaster 20:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: As for the text in Russian, it contains a full text of the Kavburo resolution on creation of NKAO. You can see the translation of the main section of it in my posting above. Grandmaster 20:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am considering your point. Personally I think an extra line could fit comfortably into the lead, but we'll see what the others think. - FrancisTyers · 21:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm fine with adding an extra line into the lead. Grandmaster 21:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: We're using "established". - FrancisTyers · 22:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes

message: Right, one of the above compromises, or a mixture of the above is going into the intro. We aren't going to vote for it, obviously, but we are going to discuss it. First things first I'd like everyone to list the ones they support in order of preference below. I have started us off (note: mine aren't in order of preference). No discussion until everyone (for these purposes that will be Tigran, GM and Fadix) have responded. It is in your interests to choose as many as possible. This is not, I repeat not a vote. - FrancisTyers · 15:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I remind all participants that it is in their interests to choose as many as possible. - FrancisTyers · 16:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Selection time

message: The region became a source of dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence in 1918. When the Bolsheviks took the region over two years later, they initially placed Nagorno-Karabakh under the control of Armenia, this was later reversed, and it was placed under the control of Azerbaijan. The Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was established in the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.
Hows that for a compromise ? - FrancisTyers · 15:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: “Placed under control” sounds as if it was not under control of Azerbaijan before, and contradicts the historical documents. I liked the previous proposal better. Grandmaster 07:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it doesn't mean that. It means that regardless of whose control it was under previously, it was then in the control of Azerbaijan. Which is true. I think we've got two that are more-or-less equally good. But I'm not sure how we're going to choose which one to put in. We're not going to have a poll, at least not one in which you guys will be participating, but equally, I'm not sure how to choose between two pretty much synonymous passages. Anyone have any ideas? - FrancisTyers · 09:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think this one is good. We have sources that say NK was part of Azerbaijan and was left within it, we cannot ignore them. Therefore a compromise should be such that it would not ignore the sources. Grandmaster 11:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Secondary sources are just interpretations that may differ, but we also have primary sources, such as Kavburo resolution, Stalin and Orjonikidze quotes, etc, and they all prove that NK was left in Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 09:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I think we have it people