Talk:Benjamin Franklin/Archive02

message: I added an infobox. The WPBiography tag suggested the article needed one. I then struck it from the properties of the WPBiography tag, as it is now present. MagnoliaSouth | Talk 16:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: Ben Franklin was a PIMP! When he was in France as an ambassador he slept around quite a lot, and was rather a ladies' man. The darker side of history is so often the more interesting. 70.107.186.7 08:54, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: playboy yes, lover no (no sex, says Ed. Morgan in recent book). Rjensen 14:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: We're not insulting him, we're just joking. But apparently he was very active with the ladies. Superbowlbound 22:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay then Jpgordon and JB (71.247.178.162), let's put it into perspective then. What Wikipedia is about is to state facts and not rumors. There is no documentation that Franklin was, in fact, a womanizer. However there is little doubt that he was known for his flirtatious behavior, but what is the true definition of a flirt and how is that a factual statement to make when there are no absolute documented witnesses? If it is to make it into the article, it must be sourced and how exactly can you cite what others have said without there being a direct quote? Theoretically there are numerous books that one can use as a source, but even those authors must cite their own sources and chasing all those down, for the simple purpose of that topic in this article, is quite a task to be had. Is it really worth that kind of time all for the sake of flirting? If you feel so inclined then you are most welcome to do so, but I say it's not even worth the bother and sounds like gossip at best, which is definitely not encyclopedic information. MagnoliaSouth | Talk 17:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is. Historical gossip, while still gossip, can be quite encyclopedic, as it reflects the contemporary opinion and feelings regarding the subject of the gossip. Since it's quite widely rumoured that Franklin was a womanizer, it doesn't matter whether he was or not -- arguably, we need to report that it was widely rumoured. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Look jpgordon guy... the fact that there exists an encyclopedia such as Wikipedia does not give you or me or anyone the right of invading a person's intimacy (even after his or her death!)  What you are trying to include in this article is more than a mere portray of Mr. Franklin z"L and more than what you have the right to publish on the internet by means of morality, justice, and even mere human respect!  and next commenary is also one I symphatize with, so take THAT from me too!  But my main point is that it is none of our business and clearly goes over the line of what is right and wrong to publish even if, hypothetically, you had any means of proving it.
Mtoussieh 07:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your point is well taken, but how do you cite such a thing? As I mentioned, without any direct quotes, there really isn't a reliable way of doing so. I currently am reading Ben Franklin: An American Life, by Walter Isaacson and will post here if I find any direct citations on it. He has an incredible list of resources. MagnoliaSouth | Talk 17:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Womanizer. It's not gossip--there is a full length study by a leading scholar:  Mon Cher Papa: Franklin and the Ladies of Paris by Claude-Anne Lopez (1990). Franklin flirted a great deal but there was no sex. Rjensen 23:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We are running in circles here Rjensen. (Gaytan 16:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Playboy

message: I have updated the Religious Belief section of this article.  Please review and provide any comments you may have here.  The update I gave this section primarily portrays Franklin as a Deist in his early life with a transition away from standard Deism in later life believing in an Interventionist God.  While some may argue that Franklin was or was not a Christian, I have simply avoided getting into this argument.  Instead, I have pointed out that he was a religious and spiritual man, as can be inferred from his speech at the Constitutional Convention of 1787.  This point, I believe, is irrefutable; by the end of his life, he was simply no longer a Deist (since Deist clearly hold the view of a non-interventionist God). Gaytan 16:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franklin and Deism 

message: I added printer at the head of the series of Franklin's occupations. Publisher was listed (and is retained) but is not synonymous with printer; also, Benjamin Franklin chose to include printer in his epitaph.
:Right and a fantastic choice too, I might add. In fact, earlier I added an Infobox (per Wiki's request) and under occupation I put "Printer" because that is the precise occupation that Franklin liked to claim, even after he had retired. Well done anonymous! MagnoliaSouth | Talk 17:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  adding printer 

message: www.infowarscom/articles/occult/hellfire.htm 
:I note that it contains the word "Illuminati" without any visible ironic intent; in fact, it speaks of the elite showing secret signs of their Illuminati allegiance. Therefore, it is paranoid crap, or simply a hoax.
:What the facts might be concerning the bodies under Franklin's house would be interesting to know. One does get a sense of the sardonic in the coroner's remark that he might have to hold an inquest. Reminds one (speaking of Philadelphia) of the response of the makers of the Liberty Bell to a complaint they received about its having a crack; they suggested returning it in its original packing for repairs.
[Alex Jones] is a very "interesting" person; from his opinions on the "Illuminati" to the Bohemian Grove, he is rather outspoken on various conspiratorial topics.  I would tentatively delete the last sentence until further sources surfaced; however, I leave that up to more qualified contributers.  infowars.com is simply not a singulary trustworthy site.Infinitys 7th 20:51, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even though this site IS crap, it should be noted that the article about the Hellfire Club - an English club that in popular legend "held notorious, orgiastic and satanic meetings" - does mention Franklin. Daniel Trielli 03:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Franklin and Dashwood were correspondents and co-authors - perhaps the most oddly-paired group of the century, given they produced a rewritten edition of the Book of Common Prayer. It seems pretty unsurprising that Franklin would have visited Dashwood in his time in the UK, though the Hellfire Club seems perhaps too early for him to have attended. Shimgray | talk | 13:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WTF is any of this true? 

message: ::[This is a discussion which began over the inclusion/removal of the book:
:::*"Fart Proudly: Writings of Benjamin Franklin You Never Read in School." Carl Japikse, Ed.  Frog Ltd.; Reprint ed. May, 2003.  
::The original discussion can be found here.] 
I have added it back in.  Amongst his other talents, Franklin was also a humourist and to ignore that is to ignore one entire facet of the man.  I have seen that book and it contains other examples of his humourous essays ranging a wide variety of topics. --Darth Borehd 19:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Writings

message: This opening paragraph is falling apart fast. "he invented the idea of America"... Wha??? -Eisnel 06:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, it's actually very well written prose! It's an emphatic re-statement of the previous phrase about how he originated the idea of American unity. I like it, it makes the paragraph read nicely and captures the grandure and genius of the idea. Elipongo 01:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I also regard that line as unfitting, as Einsel did.  Look, even if you THINK he "invented the idea of America" and it would make a great thing to write about him in a book or his grave-stone or something... it is NOT WHAT WIKIPEDIA IS ABOUT!  beacause, unless he actually "invented" the idea of America and maybe in a manner he could have pattened, it is not a fact rather a mere way of exagerating his roll in the bringing- up of the idea and is very subjective.. how could you PROVE that in fact HE invented the idea of America?  I am skeptical about removing it myself but I strongly suggest someone else does if it is already three of us who judge it unfitting.
Mtoussieh 07:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oi, he did introduce a compromise to the Constitutional Convention, but that's just more skillful political manuvering. After all, he was public relations. ~user:orngjce223how am I typing? 20:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What a mess 

message: Perhaps there should be a seperate section for his inventions and scientific inquiries. The 'public life' section is a bit messy. Any objections? Richard Bladen 17:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree--separate section for science/inventions is called for Rjensen 17:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  you agree too? Well, me three! haha!  yeah, separate section would be good.
Mtoussieh 07:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Section? 

message: The article seems to contradict itself over whether or not Franklin ever actually conducted his famous kite experiment.  First it states with certainty the exact day he performed the experment and the later implies he may never have performed this experiment at all.  I have no opinion on the matter, other than that the article is confusing, as is. ike9898 17:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Myth Busters proved that Franklin could not have survived the traditionaly discribed expiriment (lighting actually hiting the kite with a metal key while Franklin's holding it). In fact, they showed that flying a kite with the metal key on a clear day would be sufficent to get a minor electrical shock (similar to rubbing feet on carpet and then touching a metal door handle.) Jon 13:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apparent contradictions in discussion of kite experiment 

message: I am amazed that Leibniz is not brought up once in this entry; Franklin was a noted Leibnizian, in fact, he got his idea of the flow of electricity directly from Leibniz. Something needs to be said about this. Matthew 23:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leibniz 

message: According to the Tun Tavern entry, Ben Franklin was also a colonel in the Pennsylvania Militia.  Does anybody have any references to document this? --Darth Borehd 21:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a supporting reference to this here: http://www.historynet.com/mhq/blbenfranklin/ can the block be removed so I can add it? --Darth Borehd 05:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Militia Service 

message: I was at Category:Printers and didn't see Ben, so I added that category.  Then I noticed Category:American printers, so I replaced it with that.  THEN I saw that Category:Benjamin Franklin is a sub-category of many things, including American printers.  The problem with that is that Ben doesn't show up in the articles of the category, but in the sub-category part at the top.  I understand we might have a LONG list of categories for this guy, but I would prefer him to appear in  the regular lists in the categories.  Any thoughts? John (Jwy) 00:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: Somebody apparently doesn't like popular culture references for some unknown reason.  I think it gives a sense of Franklin's relevance to and perception by modern-day Americans and has value.  In any event, it was not discussed here and a lot of people have worked on it.  Reinstated.  --Darth Borehd 00:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franklin in Popular Culture 

message: I'd rather not simply delete this quote, but it isn't sourced: "The longer I live the more convinced I become that God governs in the affairs of men." I tried Googling it, but none of the websites that attributed it to Franklin gave sources either. I would be more at ease with the article if someone would either substantiate that quote or remove it. Harkenbane 06:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Deleted the hypothesis from that section per WP:NOR, added 'citeneeded' tag after the quote, deleted the phrase 'Note of contention' from article.  That phrase belongs in talk space. MilesVorkosigan 16:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note of Contention? 

message: The articles I have read in the Wikipedia seem to me to be uniformly excellent.
I submit my website (www.benandverse.com) for consideration as an external link for two articles: “Benjamin Franklin” and “Poor Richard’s Almanac.”
I am quoting below from Google’s page on “Ben and Verse.”  A reference to this page may facilitate a ready verification of the statements below.
The proposed reason for listing it under “Poor Richard’s Almanac” appears in the description from Google’s Directory (and elsewhere):
 John McCall’s distillation of sayings from “Poor Richard’s Almanac.”
The proposed reasons for including it, in addition, under the broader topic “Benjamin Franklin” also appear in the following reasons:
1)	It’s on a list of a dozen links in the Franklin Institutes “List of Resources for Studying Ben Franklin.”
2)	It’s described in the US History Organization’s “Franklin Links” in this way: 
See Ben Franklin’s proverbs and quotes in sound bites and rhymes. Find a bio, links, and aphorisms by subject from “Poor Richard’s Almanac.”
3)	Its “A+” award from the Webenglishteacher, which describes, under “Benjamin Franklin,” the site in this way: 
This site rewrites Franklin’s aphorisms as up-to-date verse, with different proverbs appearing each month. In addition to being entertaining, it has many possible classroom applications.
I realize that these descriptions are much lengthier than those I saw on the relevant pages in Wikipedia. A possible citation occurred to me: 
Quotations by subject plus an update in rhyme
This description has been correct for years, and I have instructed my estate to maintain the website so that it will continue to be accurate long after my death.
However, I have added a new miscellaneous section to my website, and I hope to submit proposed links shortly for some articles unrelated to Franklin. 
152.163.101.7 17:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your web site will not be listed until someone else believes it worthy.  To this end, are those quotations sourced?  Anything else?  I don't think so, but those rhymes still aren't considerable due to Wikipedia:No original research, unless someone is willing to put those into a major newspaper or published work.  Anyway... ~user:orngjce223how am I typing? 21:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor Richard! His sayings updated (a proposed link) 

message: We wish to advise everyone that we (the Living Trust Network) have a copy of Ben Franklin's Last Will and Testament posted on our website, which we believe is of interest to anyone seeking information about the life of Ben Franklin. We have also discussed our desire to post a link to Ben Franklin's Last Will and Testament with Wikipedia administrators [See User talk:Livingtrust], either under "references" or "external links." Last Will and Testament of Ben Franklin. Wikipedia does not object to the link but has requested that we not put the link up ourselves since we are a commercial website. Instead, it has requested that we make it known that the Last Will and Testament is available, and anyone who wishes to add the link to the "reference" section or the "external links" section may do so. So, we solicite your help in adding the link set forth above. Thanks. Livingtrust 02:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the Franklin Institute's copy  will do just as well; although we thank livingtrust for their kindness. JCScaliger 02:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Will and Testament of Ben Franklin 

message: Benjamin Franklin has been added to the above named project. Admittedly I was initially confused as to why he was added (the discussion can be found here), however if anyone knows a bit about his alphabet invention, perhaps you might be interested in working on this? MagnoliaSouth | Talk 22:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki's [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Writing_systems|Writing Systems Project]]

message: I'm currently working on archiving old discussions, discussions that have stopped, unsigned discussions that did not illicit a response and so forth. I don't have time to do it all at once, but will be a slow process. Anyone wishing to help, or improve the formatting, is most welcome. MagnoliaSouth | Talk 01:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archiving Old Discussions

message: This link: Franklin the Musician and Inventor was apparently added by a linkspamming anon. While I do not want to encourage such people, it seems moderately interesting. I won't weep if it goes. So I put it up for discussion. JCScaliger 15:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not an expert on the matter but if it can be well sustained why should it go?
and another thing: if anyone could expand it .. gr8! Mtoussieh 07:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Franklin the musician

message: As per Deism article, some deists do pray. They do not think prayer must be asking for God to do something in reply. Prayer that praises or is a form of contemplation is completely within the realm of traditional deism of an uninvolved God. Prayer for miracles would be outside traditional deism - but many deists allow some subtle intervention by God - as small as having people think about what is the "Divine Plan" and so inspiring them to "do the right thing". Even traditional Deists believed in a reward in the afterlife (even punishment for some who did evil). Some even believed that "cosmic justice" was even built into the structure of the universe, & rewards & punishments would come even in "this" life. It is a GROSS overinterpretation to read BF's call to prayer as a "disavowal" of deism.   Looking again, I am not convinced his attitude towards prayer is anything more than acknowledgement that nothing will succeed unless it is already part of the Divine Plan --JimWae 19:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To say that modern deists pray is acceptable.  But to say that traditional deists prayed is a sham.  Re-read the Deism article closely and you will find that traditional deists, up until the 20th century or so, were staunchly opposed to prayer.  They believed that man could in no way effect Providence to directly influence anything in the world's future.  The traditional deist writers and current scholars on the subject widely agree that for deists of old (traditionally), Providence had abandoned the world to its own reason and many actually spoke against the need for prayer.  So JimWae, please be careful to qualify your reasoning by stating that modern deists may pray, but traditional deist did not.  The deism view of prayer that prevailed during Benjamin Franklin's day clearly fell into the traditional side.  Franklin therefore moved away from this quite a bit in his life since he began to value prayer and he believed that Providence could in fact directly influence the world (i.e. his call for prayer to raise up the new nation at the Constitutional Convention).  With that, I believe that we should seriously consider the accuracy of Franklin's Infobox on this article: should we really call him a Deist?  Or should we qualify this somehow? Maybe he was closer to just being a plain old theist? This will take some more study to figure out. Unless someone out there already has the answer. (Gaytan 19:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: After digging a little deeper into this subject, I found that you reference to deism's belief that "Divine goodness doth dispense rewards and punishments both in this life and after it" was asserted by Lord Herbert of Cherbury during the first half of the 17th century.  My quotes in the Franklin article came from Isaacson, which are ultimately based on the deism expounded by Tindal in his "deist bible", Christianity as Old as the Creation in 1730.  Because deism has evolved over the centuries, expecially over the question of prayer, we have to compare Franklin to the deism that was prevalent in his day.  So the question is, which of these men's ideas were more prevalent in Franklin's day, Lord Herbert of Cherbury or Tindal?  Franklin's (1706-1790) early brush with deism in the 1720's probably was more akin to the deism of Lord Herbert of Cherbury.  But for the second half of Franklin's life, Tindal's work was predominant, which taught that   prayer was fruitless due to their understanding that God put everything into motion a long time ago and that man has no say in it (see deism). During this latter part of Franklin's life, he was definitely out of step with most deists.  Today, deists seem to be changing their tune on this doctrine, reverting back to some doctrines found in the deism of Lord Herbert of Cherbury and away from Tindal.  Isaacson argues that Franklin was not a pure deist, as many biographers also believe today (in comparison to Tindal's deism), but was actually a man who believed in the value of good deeds and prayer to influence god to change the course of humanity.  If you disagree with Isaacson, please provide your reasoning, with references please. (Gaytan 16:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's move discussion about deist prayer to your talk page under "Founding Fathers and deism".  Gaytan 20:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deist prayer? 

message: I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information.  I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list.  Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article.  Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here.  Regards, Durova 17:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Cultural depictions of Benjamin Franklin]] 

message: The Ancestry portion of the article says that Franklin's family left England
for "Boston, United States" in 1683. This is historically inaccurate, as the
United States (which Ben may or may not have invented) did not exist at that
time. Some authorized person should edit the (slightly complicated) cross
references so that the text reads "Boston, Massachusetts" or something similar
and correct. 
While we're at it, Ben's article does not happen to mention his discovery of
the gulf stream, either directly or with a reference to the Gulf Stream
article. Likewise, the Gulf Stream article does not mention Franklin or
anyone else as the discoverer.
Snezzy 03:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boston, United States 

message: Hey - I am redirecting a bunch of Franklin's aliases to this article - I wrote them down after seeing the Franklin exhibit.
Some seem POV (I.e. Great Person - which I haven't created yet) - So we should list them :) WhisperToMe 08:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Aliases

message: I noticed in there are two disparate references to a Glass Harmonica and a Glass Armonica in the Ben F. Wikipedia entry.  I checked the Franklin Institute web site and a couple others and it appears the Glass Harmonica reference is incorrect.  I am new to providing input  and am not sure how this gets changed.  Can someone correct this?
Thanks Dohn 00:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the same word; it depends on how Italianate you want to be in spelling it. Leave it be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glass Armonica or Harmonica 

message: "He more than anyone invented the idea of an american nation..."
Seems like an opinion to me.
71.29.121.219 02:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinions 

message: 63.3.72.1 15:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franklin Site Freed from Copyright Restrictions 

message: I see that I referred to my website as being listed on "some" of your links. That strike me as being much too vague. I also mentioned "Clutsy" as a source. Well, I think I did see it on Clutsy, but on going back, I didn't see it prominently placed. Please just say it's on the Electric Franklin, where it is listed with reasonable prominence.
Please serve up some more patience.
Sorry also to hash up the format above. As you see, I am very low tech. I think I'm supposed to sign this as follows:
209.244.42.171 14:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ben and Verse Links 

message: The following site says the following:
:Wikipedia distorts the youthful acceptance of deism by Benjamin Franklin by never acknowledging that he later abandoned it and failing to admit the significance of how Franklin, near the end of his life, proposed the saying of prayers at the Constitutional Convention for divine intervention and assistance in the proceedings,[4] an act that was debatably against the teachings of deism. Wikipedia also omits any acknowledgement of Franklin's praise of Pilgrim's Progress in his autobiography. 
Any truth in this assertion? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not been able to uncover any evidence of the truth of this assertion.  Anybody have other references to this?  If documented and supported, it should definately be added.  --Darth Borehd 03:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issue raised on conservative website 

message: Did or did not b. franklin invent daylight savings time? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.18.213.132 (talk) 02:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  daylight savings time. 

message: i've been using this website for my school research project on Benjamin Franklin and it has given me everything that I need to do my project with! thanks wikipedia! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.167.25.160 (talk) 05:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember - "Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia best served verified." --Evb-wiki 06:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This site is great!!!