Talk:Performances and adaptations of The Star-Spangled Banner

message: I personally removed some lyrics on this page. If we're going to allow some lyrics here we'll have to allow them all and then this page goes to hell and becomes a lyrics research page.- TLAGT  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.140.22.70 (talk) 23:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

message: The page seems to be biased towards the POV of Jimi Hendrix.  The SSB was written by F. Key and J. S. Smith, and has little relation to Jimi Hendrix based solely on his one rendition of the song.
66.81.27.49 (talk) 04:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to work on improving the article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not NPOV? 

message: The problem is that the article does not establish the notability of its topic.  It needs citations to reliable sources to demonstrate that the various performances and adaptations discussed are actually notable.  I also question whether many of these performances and adaptations actually are notable.
I suggest that this could be cut back dramatically, and merged into the main Star-Spangled Banner article. Blueboar (talk) 13:56, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What would be the criteria for notability? For example, the versions by Houston, Hendrix, Feliciano... and Roseanne (ugh) received a lot of publicity, so they would surely qualify.  Merrill and the MTC versions would seem to be well-known. Hard telling about some of the others. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question... I would start by requiring that any particular rendition be discussed in a serious manner (ie more than just a passing reference) by multiple reliable sources.  This would probably not cut back the article substantially, but it would mean that a) what is discussed is cited, and b) prevent the list from becoming a TRIVIA dump of the "My Favorite Band sang it at the Yankees vs. Red Sox game on June 3rd, 2009" type.  I would also suggest that the reliable sources should discuss the rendition in terms of it being in some way unique or at least special. Blueboar (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability & Merger? 

message: I have removed this section as it is repetitious of material at the main ariticle... also, from what I can gather, this article is supposed to be about specific (notable?) perfomances and adaptions... while the section was more about the customs and traditions of when and where the Star-Spangled Banner is sung.  It was thus misplaced in this article. Blueboar (talk) 17:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada 

message: OK... I think that this article might be saved... but it is going to require a lot of clean up.  I see two main issues that need to be dealt with: 
#Trivia.  An awful lot of the renditions mentioned here are essentially trivia.  For example: "The song was also recorded by Béla Fleck and the Flecktones on their 1991 album Flight of the Cosmic Hippo."  So what?  Lots of artists have recorded the song.  Was there anything notable about their particular recording?  I would also cut a lot of the references to singing/playing the Anthem at Sporting events or regularly playing it in concert.  It is fairly common for bands play the National Anthem in their concerts or at sporting events in the US, so mearly playing it is not anything noteworthy.  I think the rendition has to be notable for it to be included here. 
#No citations. When a rendition is not trivia, it needs some commentary as to why it is notable... and that commentary needs to be cited.  I am going to avoid marking up the entire article with hundreds of  tags all at once... but this definitely needs to be fixed.  
I am going to go through the article paragraph by paragraph.  I will note here whether I think the entry is trivia and should be removed, or notable and needs citation.  I definitely will not remove things without giving people a chance to discuss (but if no one has disagreed with my take on it after a reasonable time, I will assume that others agree with me and act accordingly.) Blueboar (talk) 18:16, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You have obviously not a clue about the history of this situation, so you shouldn't be editing it. Do some reading on the 1968 World Series and Feliciano, and it will become clear to you. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's Feliciano talking about the reaction to his performance (along with excerpts of the performance) and what it did to his career:  Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's further info on Feliciano's website:  You weren't around in 1968, and I'm sure you find it hard to believe that there would be such brouhaha over this seemingly innovative and harmless rendition. But tensions were extremely high in this country in 1968. Feliciano was pilloried for it, almost as much as Roseanne was some years later with her horrible, screechy rendition. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:30, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And the reason Harwell's opinion matters is that in addition to being the Tigers regular announcer, he had personally recommended Feliciano for this gig. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Bugs... don't link the sources here... Fix the problem by adding them to the article.  Please understand that I am not saying that the information in this article inaccurate... I am saying that it needs Verification.   As for having a clue... I was around in 1968.  Although I was only six at the time, I do remember the brouhaha... please don't assume things about other editors, especially age. That said, what I don't have a clue about is what the best sources on this would be... so I rely on those who do know the sources (such as yourself) to provide them. Blueboar (talk) 13:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The way you phrased the question at the top of this section, it looked like you had never heard of this situation. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

text: OK... but please note that this has a sub-section header... look above and you will see that I stated that I am going through the article item by item, noting what needs to be sourced and why.  My intent was not to question whether Feliciano's version was controvercial... it was to get someone to provide a source that would verify that it was controvercial. Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, that was just not clear from the wording. "Who says" is another way of saying "I don't believe it". If you had said "we need better sources", that would have been better. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I will keep that in mind as I continue.  And thanks for adding the sources to the article.  I will conform them to inline citation later.   If you know of sources for any of the other performances, please add them as well. Blueboar (talk) 14:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And if I had paid more attention to your Hendrix comments, I might have seen better what you were getting at. I already knew about Feliciano. I would have to research the Hendrix situation. I would say it's "notable" in the sense that it seems to get cited everytime something about Woodstock comes up, although I wouldn't call it "controversial", since Woodstock would have been a much friendlier audience than Tiger Stadium. I think it's often cited just because it was so heavily electric-guitared, if that's a word - but truth to tell, it was closer to the actual tune than Feliciano's version was. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

text: I think you are correct in thinking that Henrix's performance was not controvercial to the Woodstock audience (more like awe-inspiring)... but I suspect that it became controvercial after the fact (it can definitely  be seen as an anti-war statement, and that in itself was controvercial).  However, if we are going to say it was controvercial, we need to cite a source that comments on the controversy and substantiates that statement. Blueboar (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No argument there. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indication of what is needed 

message: OK... here we go... The first entry is the one on Hendrix's versions.  I totally agree that his renditions are notable (especially the one at Woodstock)... however, we need to cite some sources to substantiate this.  We also need to cite sources for the criticisms that are mentioned.  I have marked up what I think is needed.  Comments? Blueboar (talk) 18:16, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Hendrix

message: Next... Who says his version was controvercial? How do we know that Ernie Harwell liked it (and why does his opinion matter)?Blueboar (talk) 12:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You have obviously not a clue about the history of this situation, so you shouldn't be editing it. Do some reading on the 1968 World Series and Feliciano, and it will become clear to you. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's Feliciano talking about the reaction to his performance (along with excerpts of the performance) and what it did to his career:  Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's further info on Feliciano's website:  You weren't around in 1968, and I'm sure you find it hard to believe that there would be such brouhaha over this seemingly innovative and harmless rendition. But tensions were extremely high in this country in 1968. Feliciano was pilloried for it, almost as much as Roseanne was some years later with her horrible, screechy rendition. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:30, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And the reason Harwell's opinion matters is that in addition to being the Tigers regular announcer, he had personally recommended Feliciano for this gig. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

text: Bugs... don't link the sources here... Fix the problem by adding them to the article.  Please understand that I am not saying that the information in this article inaccurate... I am saying that it needs Verification.   As for having a clue... I was around in 1968.  Although I was only six at the time, I do remember the brouhaha... please don't assume things about other editors, especially age. That said, what I don't have a clue about is what the best sources on this would be... so I rely on those who do know the sources (such as yourself) to provide them. Blueboar (talk) 13:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The way you phrased the question at the top of this section, it looked like you had never heard of this situation. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

text: OK... but please note that this has a sub-section header... look above and you will see that I stated that I am going through the article item by item, noting what needs to be sourced and why.  My intent was not to question whether Feliciano's version was controvercial... it was to get someone to provide a source that would verify that it was controvercial. Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, that was just not clear from the wording. "Who says" is another way of saying "I don't believe it". If you had said "we need better sources", that would have been better. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I will keep that in mind as I continue.  And thanks for adding the sources to the article.  I will conform them to inline citation later.   If you know of sources for any of the other performances, please add them as well. Blueboar (talk) 14:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And if I had paid more attention to your Hendrix comments, I might have seen better what you were getting at. I already knew about Feliciano. I would have to research the Hendrix situation. I would say it's "notable" in the sense that it seems to get cited everytime something about Woodstock comes up, although I wouldn't call it "controversial", since Woodstock would have been a much friendlier audience than Tiger Stadium. I think it's often cited just because it was so heavily electric-guitared, if that's a word - but truth to tell, it was closer to the actual tune than Feliciano's version was. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

text: I think you are correct in thinking that Henrix's performance was not controvercial to the Woodstock audience (more like awe-inspiring)... but I suspect that it became controvercial after the fact (it can definitely  be seen as an anti-war statement, and that in itself was controvercial).  However, if we are going to say it was controvercial, we need to cite a source that comments on the controversy and substantiates that statement. Blueboar (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No argument there. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Feliciano

message: I have removed this one... all it said was "Page played it during concerts"... with no indication that his rendition is at all notable. Blueboar (talk) 12:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Page/Zeplin

message: We need to substantiate a) that this version was "famous" and b) why this version was "famous".  If it was because it was "highly soul-flavored", then we need to substatiate that fact.  That it "received much acclaim from the crowd" is, IMO irrelevant... the crowd at a US sporting event almost always "acclaims" the singing of the anthem, as long as the performer sings in key and does not forget the words.  What is needed is a reliable source that comments on Gaye's perfomance, and indicates that it was noteworthy and stood out from the norm. Blueboar (talk) 14:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Marvin Gaye

message: I have done a lump removal of several listed versions that all were along the lines of "band X recorded it", or "band X sang it at non-notable sporting event Y", where there was no indication of what made the version notable. Blueboar (talk) 04:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Fan cruft listings

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Id propose moving the following block here, from the main SSB page. Its more appropriate here and also has long been listed in the subject description for this page. Thoughts? 
Also any help citing appreciated. Most of this I can find Youtube links, but struggle to find news other than whats posted already. 
Lastly, thoughts on a format for this? Was thinking to maybe breakdown/reword and table by team/location.
At sporting events in Baltimore, the line "O say does that Star Spangled Banner yet wave" is preceded by the crowd yelling "O!" in homage to the Baltimore Orioles, who are nicknamed "The O's"; this was once common in nearby Washington, D.C. (where Capitals fans often emphasize the "red" - the team's main color - of "rockets' red glare") as well - lacking their own MLB franchise, the Orioles were very much a "home" team in the nation's capital - but has become rare since the arrival of the Nationals in 2005.   At sporting events in Dallas-Fort Worth, the lines "Whose broad stripes and bright stars" and "O say does that star" are followed by the crowd shouting "Stars!" in homage to the Dallas Stars.  However, at San Jose Sharks home games versus the Dallas Stars, fans are known to boo at the two occurrences of the word "star" in the song. In Raleigh, North Carolina at Carolina Hurricanes and North Carolina State University (Wolfpack) games, the crowd often  emphasizes the word "red" as well. At sporting events in Houston, the first three words of the line "And the rockets' red glare" are followed by the crowd shouting "Rockets" in homage to the Houston Rockets.  At sporting events in Atlanta, the final word is pluralized in homage to the Atlanta Braves. Also, UCF Knights fans yell "Knights" when the line "Gave proof through the night..." is sung. Fans at Arrowhead Stadium in Kansas City yell "home of the CHIEFS" in place of the anthem's final line."O say, don’t take national anthem for granted." Article by Vahe Gregorian, Kansas City Star, 08/18/2013, retrieved 19 July 2014."Chiefs fan urges fans to sing 'home of the brave' during national anthem on September 11." Article by Aaron Heintzelman, KSHB-41 Kansas City, Aug 30, 2011, retrieved 19 July 2014. In addition, at University of Oklahoma football games, Sooner fans yell "home of the Sooners" in place of the anthem's final line.  At University of Virginia football games, Cavalier fans emphasize the word "Whose" in reference to an unofficial nickname for UVa sports teams, the Wahoos, or "Hoos" for short. At University of Michigan football games, students and fans salute at the words "So proudly we hail" referencing the official Michigan fight song, The Victors, which features a call to "Hail" to the university all throughout the song.
Zapman987 (talk) 21:09, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Sporting Event Modifications