Talk:Battle of Dien Bien Phu

message: is anyone fluent in french here? the ministry of defense has issued an archive video of GCMA jean sassi's emergency column to dien bien phu (jean sassi + 3 GCMA lieutenants + 15 NCO + 2000 hmong & laotian partisans, later joined by 400 partisans and a bunch of airborne commandos). even though they rescued 150 soldiers who managed to escape from dien bien phu. also an interesting article by famous author Pierre DARCOURT with a quote by Khrushchev from his memoirs: "The situation in Vietnam is desperate [...] if we do not get a cease-fire, the Vietnamese have decided to retreat to the Chinese border"... :| Cliché Online (talk) 22:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: well i guess there's no much cajun here anyway, here's the english subtitled version. Navarre was the best commander ever. Cliché Online (talk) 13:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: rescue mission: operation D

message: "A belligerent is an individual, group, country or other entity which acts in a hostile manner, such as engaging in combat." as such the chinese who operated katyushas on may 7 and the us pilots who "SERVICED IN INDOCHINA" are belligerents and MUST be included in the infobox list. there's no way to hide the US participation just because its is US and its is defeat. source is official, a press release from the ambassy and cant be ignored. Cliché Online (talk) 16:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: belligerents

message: how is there no order of battle in the article (said "quality" article) despite all unit names being known ? a simple check at the official dien bien phu battle website is enough to establish the order of battle. the french OOB shows the french expeditionary corps(s non-french units incl morroco (which is not france but a protectorate), senegal (again which is not france but a colony called AEF), lao troops (laos was then an independent country with its own army), cambodia (same as laos) and thai (troops from an area the french called "Pays Thai", lit. the land of the Thai). algerian troops were there but were french nationals (even though with "locals") because algeria was fully part of france since 1848 (a bit like corsica today). voilà. Cliché Online (talk) 16:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  order of battle 

message: better late than later... 
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Cliché Online (talk) 08:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: CIA & Arlington cemetary admit US involvement

message: The idea that, fourteen years later, the battle of Khe San copied tactically from Dien Bien Phu seems very near entirely irrelevant.
I think I'd like to convert the Khe San section from a section to a single graf pointing at the other article.
--GeePawHill (talk) 21:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Its not irrelevant, Giap was the overall commander of both battles. He either actually intended to try to repeat DBP at Khe Sanh or try to convince the Americans that that was his intention. He certainly managed to convince Westmoreland and Johnson to focus their attention on Khe Sanh while he then launched the Tet Offensive. Mztourist (talk) 12:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  does khe san really belong? 

message: I'm not particuarly au fait with wikipedia rules but the sources used to justify, for example, the assertion that prisoners "...were starved, beaten, and heaped with abuse...", seem to me extremely biased and unreliable.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.242.192 (talk) 19:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The starvation, maltreatment and indoctrination are well-documented in both Fall and Windrow's books. Mztourist (talk) 12:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Viet bias 

message: I see that you list French dead at 2,293 and wounded at 5,195, but you do not include a confirming note.  In my book, Crucible Vietnam, I refer to Bernard B. Fall as my source to support the following statement: 
“During the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, French Union Forces were decisively defeated by the Vietminh on the 7th of May 1954, thus ended the 56-day battle into which the French had poured more than 16,000 troops, while suffering 1,293 killed, 5,234 wounded.”
Source: A. T. Lawrence, author of Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. , p. 17. [Footnoted source: Bernard B. Fall, Hell In A Very Small Place: The Siege of Dien Bien Phu. (Cambridge, Mass: Da Capo Press, 2002), p. 483]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.57.247 (talk) 01:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualties and losses 

message: Should the introduction section rewrited since it has written mainly about French view? --223.206.180.43 (talk) 12:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the whole article seems to be a view from French, doesn't it? --223.206.180.43 (talk) 13:11, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether it was written from the French view or not, that is highly irrelevant. The Viet Minh won the battle, and nothing could change that now.Canpark (talk) 14:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  French View? 

message: I am reverting this series of consecutive edits by 
user:CopperSquare the last revision was at 08:29, 11 August 2011 and all were done under the misleading edit summary of "m (minor cleanup)". The edits changed names such as "Dien Bien Phu" to "Điện Biên Phủ", CopperSquare you should be ashamed of yourself using substitute to push through such a change. Our usage here should follow the majority usage in the English language secondary sources. -- PBS (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the above. This is an ENGLISH-language wikipedia, and that includes using the English alphabet
that is used in Britain, Ireland, North America, Australia, the Philippines, and so forth. This is an alphabet without any excessive diacritical marks such as are found in French, Vietnamese, or Spanish, and no special characters (such as ones with umlauts), such as are found in German, Scandinavian languages, Slavic languages, and Spanish. For example, we do not use the n with a tilde over it as is found in Spanish, or the es-set that is used in German. People need to learn that the English alphabet is a simple one w/o the need of extra "bells and whistles".47.215.188.197 (talk) 06:25, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no policy that mandates the use of diacritical marks and they are unnecessary at any rate (see WP:DIACRITIC). To me there are a number of drawbacks with their use and very few if any benefits given that they will be meaningless to the vast majority of our editors and readers who only read and write English. Also as most of our keyboards cannot generate such keys they cause accessibility issues for anyone wishing to contribute material to articles which use them meaning that any text we add will be inconsistent, including some names with the marks and others without. This causes MOS issues which detracts from good / featured content in particular. Anotherclown (talk) 23:04, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting changes of names made in August from "Dien Bien Phu" to "Điện Biên Phủ" 

message: How is it possible that there were 10,800 French soldiers involved and 11,721 captured? Did they breed during the siege?
NobodyMinus (talk) 22:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the idea :)  However, it says "as of March 13" for both sides, and the battle ended in May. So, a more likely explanation is that, as the article explains, the French were dropping in or flying in, with varying levels of success, additional troops after March 13. One can also imagine that there were ultimately more than 63,000 Viet personnel involved. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:34, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: They had reinforcements sent in via airdrop as the siege progressed, thus the higher number of captives as opposed to the strength of the original garrison.TH1980 (talk) 04:54, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency 

message: Legion is part of the French army, no need to separate it from France. I deleted Legion icon.109.190.97.85 (talk) 12:08, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belligerents 

message: Parts of this article speak of 'Vo', other parts speak of 'Giap'.  I assume all of these refer to the same commander, Vo Nguyen Giap.  I understand that Vietnamese names may work differently; I think the usual English short form is 'Giap'.  I don't have strong opinions on which to use, but I do think that one short form should be picked and used top to bottom. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 03:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The name should be shortened to Giap. I corrected it throughout. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:33, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vietnamese names 

message: I don't have the background to judge this as a source describing the site today -is it useful as an external link? JRPG (talk) 11:45, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a date for it? It seems quite old. I visited Dien Bien Phu in 1996, but understand that a lot of new memorials have been built since then. Mztourist (talk) 12:02, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't get a date from viewsource but he refers to 'Today' as 2002  Regards JRPG (talk) 20:46, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I think if you caption the link with c.2002 it should be fine, if someone has something more up to date they can add it later and possibly delete this link Mztourist (talk) 03:19, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link describing battlefield today 

message: I was under the impression that the Japanese army occupied Vietnam through WWII and was ejected by the US army. Which explains why the US was there. Where did the French come from??  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyberamericans (talk • contribs) 02:32, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  french in Indochina 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Currently, the end of the introductory text reads like this:
:"The refusal of Ngô Đình Diệm (the US-supported President of the first Republic of Vietnam (RVN)) to allow elections in 1956, as had been stipulated by the Geneva Conference, eventually led to the first phase of the Second Indochina War. This is better known as the Vietnam War, which was waged largely by the United States after 1963."
In my opinion this sounds a bit pedantic.  Why not revise this as follows:
:"The refusal of Ngô Đình Diệm (the US-supported President of the first Republic of Vietnam (RVN)) to allow elections in 1956, as had been stipulated by the Geneva Conference, eventually led to the Vietnam War."
Thoughts, anyone?TH1980 (talk) 00:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed Mztourist (talk) 03:06, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur too.Eastfarthingan (talk) 12:36, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Thanks, everyone, for your feedback.TH1980 (talk) 04:53, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Revision To The End Of The Introductory Text 

message: Why is this part phrased in such a manner? It is divise and reeks of politics. The rest of the article isn't headlined "Men at Dien Bien Phu", to better illustrate my problem. A more fitting headline, and subject, would be "Non-combatants at Dien Bien Phu" or something along those lines, and the subject should be broader than for whatever reason shoe-horning in a subtopic about women at the battle.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.102.83.139 (talk) 17:22, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Women at Dien Bien Phu"  

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:06, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: One or more IP users made several unhelpful edits that apparently went unnoticed. Some were just minor wording changes, but some, like this edit change information and even delete references for the original. I don't think that someone will semi-protect at this point, but maybe someone can look into new edits every once in a while. 19:41, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  IP Vandalism 

message: The trench warfare section contains the amateurish run-on sentence 
"During a period of stalemate from 15 April to 1 May, the French intercepted enemy radio messages which told of whole units refusing orders to attack, and Viet Minh prisoners in French hands said that they were told to advance or be shot by the officers and non-commissioned officers behind them,[79] much like Stalin's "Not A Step Back!" decree of WWII, under which troops were compelled to advance even in the face of withering enemy fire, and were strictly forbidden to retreat without orders."
I would advise an extensive re-write to at least make this a more pleasant read. I'd also call into question the need to even reference Stalin and WW2. Nothing of value seems to be added, and the overall flow of the paragraph seems better as follows: 
 During a period of stalemate from 15 April to 1 May, the French intercepted enemy radio messages which told of whole units refusing orders to attack, and Viet Minh prisoners in French hands said that they were told to advance or be shot by the officers and non-commissioned officers behind them.[79] Worse still, the Viet Minh lacked advanced medical treatment and care, with one captured fighter stating that, "Nothing strikes at combat-morale like the knowledge that if wounded, the soldier will go uncared for".
While the comparison does bear minor relevance, one can imagine every Vietnam war article being gummed up with references to similarities to America's more recent wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. The comparisons would not be without justification, but they add little value to the article subject that is at hand. The removal of the reference to WW2 does not subtract from the point that Viet Minh troops were pushed to the breaking point and were suffering serious morale problems. If anything the sudden switch of focus to the eastern front of ww2 makes this less clear.
:I misread your edit - that you were adding rather than deleting.  Apologies.  Cinderella157 (talk) 08:21, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trench Warfare 

message: According to Fall there was a Polish guy named Stefan Kubiak who had deserted from the Legion and joined the Viet Minh.  After proving himself to them in '50-'51 he was, (again, according  to Fall), "adopted" by Ho and given the name "Ho Chi Thuan."  As much as I am sure the wiki does not want to drown in the minutia of battalion level commanders from a single battle it does seem noteworthy.  96.240.128.124 (talk) 01:58, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Research him and create a page. Mztourist (talk) 10:04, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Article Request for a related topic 

message: This article was promoted back in 2006, it has some issues now that I think need addressing. I've placed some tags and done a little cleanup but here's where we stand:
* A lot of unsourced text, including much of the trivial "In popular culture" section and the entirety of the "Battlefield" section
* Mix of citation styles
* Text could use some consolidation into sensible paragraphs.
* Use of some less than optimal sources, such as History.com
* Vagueness, example:  An assessment of what?
* In places where conflicting historian's accounts are mentioned, there seems to be discussions of things historians did not write about...which unless mentioned in another source, is a WP:OR violation. Example:  This statement is only cited to Windrow, and I have a suspicion that Windrow was not discussing the views of the other historians there. It could be fine, but needs to be checked.
* POV violations and unattributed opinions of normative judgements, example:  According to who?
These issues need to be fixed if the article is to retain its status. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA criteria 

message: Plenty of books say the casulties of Viet Minh was 23,000 killed or wounded. Why this article said it was estimate by french? Waylon1104 (talk) 00:37, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The source cited is: Stone, David (2004). Dien Bien Phu. I cannot view the source page.  However, the article would attribute this as a French estimate because Stone would make a similar attribution. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vietnamese Casualties 

message: 'Howard Simpson' links to 'Howard Woodworth Simpson' (8 May 1892 – 4 November 1963) was a pioneering American Automobile automotive engineer. The author of 'Dien Bien Phu: The Epic Battle America Forgot' is another person. 86.93.67.125 (talk) 14:12, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect url 

message: How many former Wehrmacht and Waffen SS soldiers fought in this battle? 2001:9E8:CACD:6300:D1F8:D5E5:5C85:57C8 (talk) 09:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wehrmacht