Talk:Nair/Archive 8

message: The connection between nairs and newars is a very loose assumption. The pagoda style of nepali architecture is due to chinese influence which was also there in kerala as we all know with the fishing nets, koppa, cheen chetti and bharani. The credit to building such temples should go to Vishvakarmas.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.228.84 (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

message: Megasthenes did mention about the Chera Kingdom.  The word Malabar itself was first used by Al Biruni in 1000 ad for the first time. No inscriptions or plates mentioning the name Nair exist before 1030 ad ( Thiruvalla Sasanam). The wore Anayar have been mentioned little earlier. All Nagas mentioned need not be Nairs either.There is no records substantiating the existence of Nayars in kerala in the first millenium predating the Rashtrakuta invasions ( 752 ad to 973 ad ).
Megasthenes did mention about Nehra community  as Narae a Scythian community living in North India not Nairs but could have common Scythian origins. 
Nelcynda (talk) 14:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the Kandiyur inscriptions mention the Aaruveetil Madampis who are 6 Nair lords and these inscriptions date back to 825 AD. They arent mentioned as "Nairs" but these families and their branches still exist. So the people later known as Nairs did exist then. Manu  —Preceding comment was added at 07:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Megasthenes did not mention Nayars ( Nairs) of Malabar, in Indica but narae, Jats

message: During Megasthanesperiod in 300 BC Nairs or Nairi tribe of Scythians or Indo-Scythians were perhaps not in India. The Sakasthan of the Scythians, in the north of Iran, in the present day Kazakhistan, was ruled by Greek Selucid dynasty might be quite familiar to Megasthenes. Megasthenes might have known Nairis, of Saka kingdom who could be the ancestors of modern day Nairs, Nayyars (Khatri of Punjab), Nehra, Nara among Jats, and Newars of Nepal. Scythians might have had Matriarchy as well as Female Queens with Slavery and Blinding of slaves too.Megasthenes might not have mentioned Nayars of Malabar as the migration of Nairs to Kerala could not have happened earier than 752 AD. The word Malabar was coined by Al Biruni, for the first time in 1030 AD to denote all the places from Bombay to Kanyakumari. 
 
With due respects to Raman Menon, though whose monumental Calicut University paper(1905) The Scythian origins of Nairs is not available now.
Nelcynda (talk) 14:37, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scythian [[Nairi]] tribe of Kazhakstan ( Sakasthan), Megasthenes Indika 

message: Nairs differ from most of the Dark Dravidians, by their sharper features, fairness, slight mongoloid features, often persian like features, heavy built and different culture. Most of the ancient Tamil descendents consider Nairs to be of Northern stock.
No oral traditions or Sangam literature attests to the existence of Matriarchy in ancient Kerala. Patriarchy was the norm within all the Dravidian clans including Cheras. Monoandry was the norm though Polygamy was not considered abnormal. The virtues of Kannagi,including Chastity and modesty praised by the Chera prince Elango adigalin his Silappathiharam. The Chera kings till their end in 1120 talked and wrote books in Tamil.   
Naka or Nagas did exist in ancient India as well as Sri Lanka.But those Nagas belong to a completely different stock not related to Nairs who might have migrated thousand years later. The  Nagas are ethnically and culturally different people from the Dravidians. Though often employed by the Dravidians as mercenaries the Nagas never ruled any kingdom in South India.(To devalue the Dravidians some of the Brahmin Historians tried to establish that all the Dravidian kingdoms including Chola, Chera and Pandyan kingdoms were the creation of Nagas not of Dravidians. The ancient Tamil kingdoms were Jain and were ruled exclusively by Dravidians not Nagas. Sangha literature never mentioned about Nairs either. Nairs never had any affinity to Tamil or Jainism.They perhaps were not familiar with even Kannagi,when they arrived, leading to renaming the names of all Kannagi temples.
Nelcynda (talk) 14:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nairs were Vadugas (northern invaders) not ancient Tamil Dravidians 

message: The Manipallavam  mentioned in Manimekalai,  could be Sri Lanka, where the Naga lords had a kingdom but they could be, not related to Nairs. The Nagas of Sri Lanka are integrated by the Sinhalese later.Some say Manipallavam could be Indonesia or Phillipines (Manila) where Nagas were present too.
Nelcynda (talk) 14:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nairs were not the  Naka or Naga Lords of [[Manimekalai]], an ancient Tamil literature 

message: The Chera king was clearly of Villavar origin.The emblem on the flag and the Governments insignia were Bow and Arrow indicating they descend from Villavars the ancient Bow men. The villavar tribes of Kerala could be Villavar, Malayar, Vanavar, Velliar,Puraiyar, Pazhuvettariayar etc. The Ezhava or Illavars and Billavas of Karnataka also could be of the same villavar stock.
The main title of Chera kings was Villavar Kone.
Nairs might have integrated some of the Chera descendents after the fall of Chera kingdom not earlier.
Nelcynda (talk) 14:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There had been innumerable invasions and exodus to the northern india by different Saka clans from 200 BC onwards. This lasted till 4th century AD and many kingdoms in the north and central India were founded by them. Nagas who were rulers of north-west also were part of this saka dynasties. The sakas included Yavanas (greek),Kamboja (Central Asians) and pahlavas. Though these saka clans were fierce fighters, they were never treated on par with the Aryan kshathriya groups by the Aryans. Gautama Budha is postulated to have come from one of such saka clans. In Manusmruthi, they are mentioned as ‘degraded kshathriyas’ and ‘Sudras’ as they never observed the sacred brahminical code. Perhaps this may be one other reason why the Nairs were treated as Sudras by Brahmins. The practice of Polyandry and Matriarchy among the Nairs definitely point to the fact that they were a migrant group of warriors. Polyandry, as a result of losing or unavailability of women folk due to these migrations and also reluctance - driven by gene consciousness - to mix with the natives. The local Dravidian groups like Thiyas did adopt matriarchy from the Nairs as many of them were also into the Nair occupation of war fare. However,the ezhavas of south kerala never practiced matriarchy.Keraleeyan   —Preceding comment was added at 06:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illavars are more related to the Chera kings, the [[Villavar]]s not Nairs 

message: Ahichatra was a Naga kingdom. Ahi= Snake Chatra = Kingdom. After the repeated Scythian invasions starting from the second century BC, Whole of the North and Western India was occupied by Scythian tribes. Scythians are known for their military prowess and formed the Kshatriya Rajput and Jat clans. But the Scythians who mixed with the local Nagas might not have gained the same respect as Keralolpathi hints at.
Keralolpathi says that Nairs and Bunts are Sudras who accompanied Namboothiris and Thulu Brahmins from Ahichatra,near Rampur near Nainital in the Indo Nepal Border. Kadamba king Mayuravarma of Banavasi is credited with bringing Brahmins from North in 345 AD. So Nairs might have migrated to Shimoga in Karnataka in 345 AD not earlier. 
The physical appearance of Nairs, the fair colour,sharp features and slight mongoloid looks all points to the fact this North to South migration did happen.
Newars had Matriarchy in the ancient times. 
They lived in  Pagoda like residential houses closely resembling Nalukettu.
They have Masked danced drama which depicts Buddhist stories closely resembling Kathakali. 
From the fourth century onwards Nairs might have spread to Tulunad and after 800 ad they might have invaded or migrated to Kerala.
It seems the Brahmins of Ahichatra in the North Panchala country in the present day Uttarpradesh brought a band of Nepalese Scythian Naga warriors from Nepal and came to Karnataka,dominated the political scene over there from 345 to 800 ad and in an appropriate time they have entered Kerala with the Rashtrakuta army and became Lords of Kerala after the fall of Chera kingdom.
Nelcynda (talk) 15:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Newar]]s and the Brahmins from [[Ahichatra]] 

message: *The Nairi people of Armenia and the Mittany ( of Turkey) migrated east to the Saka country north of Persia might be their defeat at the hand of Assyrians in 1240 BC.
*Saka invasions of India between 200 BC to 400 ad. Northern India including Ahichatra and Nepal under the suzernity of the Sakas. At Nepal they might have been called Newars.
*The Kadamba king Mayuravarma invites Brahmins from Ahichatra to Shimoga in north Karnataka at 345 AD. Nairs (Newars) and Bunts hired by Namboothiris accompany them who join the Kadambas and later Rashtrakuta.
*During Rashtrakuta invasions between 752 ad to 973 ad whole of Kerala and Tamil Nadu (Chola king was defeated and killed at Takkolam)
was devastated, the land upto Kanyakumari was occupied by Nairs and Namboothiris with Rashtrakuta a Scythian kingdom. Thus many Chera clans incuding Villavar, Illavar or Ezhava and Pandyan Villavar clans of southern Kerala, were displaced from their land and enslaved.   
Nelcynda (talk) 13:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Migration of Nairs, the [[Nairi]] people from Armenia to Kerala 

message: *The traditional Chera kingdom was a strong Patriarchy. The kings descended in a hereditary fashion unlike Nairs.
*Tamil was their mother tongue till their end.
The ancient Chera kings had Tamil,Jain,Dravidian roots while Nairs are Scythian Nagas who were ethnically not Dravidians at all. Nairs were probably still in the Saka Kingdom (Kazhakstan) in the Central Asia,in the early Christian era, when the ancient Dravidian Chera kings such as Cheran Senkuttuvan were ruling Kerala.  
*The ancient Cheras including Elangovadikal cherished the ideals of Monoandry and females faithfulness to their husbands.Poyandry practised by Nairs is exactly opposite to what was practised by ancient Chera Tamil Jains.
*The titles of Cheras included in 800 ad during Kulasekhara Alwars period.
*Kollikavalan (the king of Kollimalai in Salem)King of Central and Northern Kerala.
*Koodal Nayagan (The king of Ooty (Udakai was the second capital as well) and Gudalur)
*Villavar Kone (The king of Villavars including Illavars or Ezhava)
*Vanavar Kone (The king of Vanavars)
*Kongar kone (The king of Kongu Nadu- Coimbatore and Karur)
*Malayar Kone (The king of the Malaiyars)
None of these titles indicate Nair presence.
Invasion of Kongan Pada, was it to help the Chera rulers against the Nairs and Namboothiris ?
Kongu Nadu was the home turf for the Cheras where they originated. The ancient Chera capital was situated at Vanchimanagar (Karur in Tamil Nadu).During Kulasekhara Alwar (801 ad)Kongu was with Kerala. But after the appearance of Nairs in Kerala Kongu became hostile to Kerala. According to oral traditions Nairs defended Palaghat(? 896 ad) from the onslaught of Kongus,the Kongan Pada,who had been hitherto loyal Chera subjects. 
Many later Chola kings were relatives of Cheras  
The Kerala Perumal Vazcha and the creation of Modern Kerala itself was the handiwork of the Later Cholas. The later Cholas allied with the Cheras who were hiterto related to Pandyas ethnically. Without Chola help Cheras would have never gained control over the Southern Kerala against the Pandyans. 
All the Chola kings from 985 ad to 1050 ad were born to Chera kings.
There has been numerous accounts of Chera kings including Bhaskara Ravi Varma, building and donating to Temples in Chola territory especially Sri Rangam and Kumbakonam areas.Baskara Ravi Varma also served as commander of the western Chola fleet.
Nair Chavers need not be Lords under Chera Kingdom
Nairs also allegedly resisted the the Cholas as Chavers in 1030 ad according the Thiruvalla shasanam.The Bunts of Karnataka the counter parts of the Nairs were often hired as mercenaries by the local kingdoms. Nairs also might have been hired warriors by  the local kings.But other than these there is nothing to suggest that Nairs were really loyal to Chera kings or had been their lords and generals.
A common tradition in Thrissur recounts that Nairs and Namboothiris actually forced to evict the Chera from his throne.
Keralolpathi states that the Cheraman Perumals were elected by the four Dhalis of Namboothiris and each were destined to rule a period of 12 yrs, indicating Namboothiris were successful in ending the hereditary dynasty of the Imperial Cheras.
The mention of Thuluva Perumal ( as Cheraman Perumal) again indicates that the Namboothiris tried to replace the Chera dynasty with a Thuluva dynasty from their home country.
Within hundred years of mention of Nairs in kerala inscriptions the Cheraman Perumal was forced out of power in 1120 ad. This indicates Nairs were not fighting as Samurais for  the Imperial Chera but for the Namboothiris rulers.  
Nelcynda (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nairs were very much part of the army that defended the Chera kingdom. They might have been hired as mercenaries by the chera king. The last chera king, Cheraman Perumal, was forced to leave his country on religious grounds than political. He embraced Islam and left to Mecca in the 9th C (825 AD). Before leaving to Mecca, he partitioned the whole of his empire to 4 different chieftains of the respective area who served him including the Nair forces. The biggest part of the empire was handed over to Kulashekhara Perumal (Venad king). He also got 3,25,000 strong Nair brigade with him. The Eradi (poonthura) Nair was the army chief of Cheraman perumal and finally when Eradi, (later came to be known as the Zamorin) his most privileged army chief approached him, he was almost done with the partition. He could give Eradi only a small territory which was as small an area as a “rooster’s cry” could be heard. Besides this, he gave his sword to Eradi and told him to “Slay, conquer and extend your kingdom”. That’s what exactly Eradi did and had most of the Cheraman’s erstwhile empire under his foot. Even AdiSankaran (8th century) had defined the rules for 72 castes in the society of which Nairs are also part of. However, there is no mention of Nairs before the arrival of Namoothiris to tulunadu in 7th century.
(Ref. Malabar Manual, chapter - History).Keraleeyan
 Adi Sankara charyar
If he defined the rules for the 72 castes including Nairs only to boost the social status of Namboothiris and Nairs after the Rastrakuta Invasion. This eventually reduced the status of all the native Dravidians,including Villavars who had been rulers of the Chera kingdom,for many thousand years.
Chera conversions to Islam
There has been two conversions of Chera kings. The earlier one might have been a prince at 825 ad who assumed the name Tajuddin. 
But the convesion last Chera king Ramavarma Kulasekhara ended the Chera kingdom itself. Why did not he appoint his heir from his hindu relatives before leaving for Mecca. It is naive to believe that the last Imperial Chera king did not have any heir.If Nairs were supporting the Chera king the Chera Kingdom would not have ended abruptly.
It may not be correct to say all the laterday kings were relatives of Cheraman himself though they claimed it. Samudiri used to wield the Cheramans Sword to indicate his authority during Mamankam.
Kshatriyahood for Nair rulers
While the Namboothiris readily accepted the Chera king as Kshatriya, they did not accept the Samudiri as Kshatriya possibly because of his Nair origins. Finally Samudiri was helped by the Tulu Brahmins to gain Kshatriyahood.  Valluvanad and Cochin also could be Nairs and not of Chera origin.
Ays were Yadavas
The Venad kings belonged to Ays (Ayar) Yadukula or Yadava closely related to Konars or Tamilnadu. They were not Cheras but they did have marital connections with Cheras. Southern Kerala was under the Pandyan kings and Trivandrum was founded by a Pandyan king Nedumchadaya Pandyan in 789 ad. Ays were not independent rulers before 880 ad but vassals of Pandyan kings. The continuous line of Venad kings from Ayyandadikal Thiruvadikal, indicate that they were Ays not Cheras.
In short the Chera Kingdom was divided by Ays,Kalabhra descendents(Pillai), Nairs and Namboothiris who were not related to Cheras who were Villavars. The flag of Cheras had Bow and arrow as emblem. The Chera Villavar bloodline could be in Illavars (or Ezhava) and Mappilla Muslims.
Nairs of Tulunad
Nairs are ethnically different people but they might have absorbed some elements of Chera blood.
The Nairs are mentioned in Gramapaddathis of Tulu nadu  as well as in the Barkur Inscriptions of Tulunad as Nayar prior to 800 ad. Nayara and Menava were  subcastes of Bunts that time. Nayars were fiercly protective of Brahmins (who later became Namboothiris). Suddenly immediately after the Rashtrakuta invasions of Kerala starting from 752 ad to 973 ad,the Nairs disappeared from Tulunad along with their masters the Namboothiris.
Many Rashtrakuta rulers claimed to be rulers of Kerala during that era.
Cheras end and  Nairs
Cheras might have hired Nair mercenaries. In Karnataka various regimes including Kadambas, Rashtrakutas, Hoysalas and even Alupas hired Bunt mercenaries, the relatives of Nairs.But there is no concrete evidence that Nairs formed the main body of the (Later)Chera army.The abrupt end of Chera rule and the sudden appearance of  Namboothiri and Nair Kingdoms does hint at that Nairs uprooted the Chera kingdom itself.
Nelcynda (talk) 15:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nairs were not Samurais of the Chera Kingdom 

message: 2007 (UTC)
::Hello there. Maybe you should go through your references better. Check out Cesare Lombroso (the author of your book). His theories don't really hold that much weight these days. Anyway, Sambandham was defined to be legal form of marriage (which it always was, though loose) under the Hindu Marriage Act... so... there goes your theory. --vi5in[talk] 07:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We cannot hide History with someones bad attitude. Just like someone delete posts or telling some refs are valid and some are not. Its the accepted fact about samabdham is a sexual relationship and Nair women were allowed to have relationship with many namboothiri/nair men. In return these Nambbothiris were allowed to give gifts and proprties.(we all know that in olden days, money were noven as salary or coolie. its just some gifts. thats it). we all know it was a kind of prostitution.124.125.228.205 09:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Sambandham was a sexual relationship. No, it was not prostitution. That's your opinion. So "we all" don't know. You think that's what it is. --vi5in[talk] 17:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sambandham was male prostitution

message: Is it not possible to protect the article by edit locking and then changes are made to it only with the consensus of the moderator ? I would definitely like to continue making contributions to the article like in the past but seeing the amount of edit conflict and controversy i wonder would´nt it be advisable that we leave it to the judgement of the moderator . What say you viv ? . Sorry if its a bad idea :-)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 13:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I do agree that we end up facing a lot of problems from some rather "overzealous" editors. Perhaps this page does need to be protected. --vi5in[talk] 17:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made a request for protection. Let's try and resolve the disputes here first. --vi5in[talk] 17:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protecting the article 

message: Sambandham means "association" or "relationship". In the worse you can drag it to "liason". Sambandham is definitely a controversial union and has definitely been subject to several interpretations. From a patrilinial definition Sambandham has always been attacked as concubinage or prostitution but for a matrilineal women from Nayar Tharavadu as well as Kshatriya women of  Kovilakams in Kerala it definitely constituted marriage The only three reasons why it has not appealed to many non –matrilinials is because 1) in the sambandham union, husband had no exclusive rights in his wife and had only sexual privileges which the wife might withdraw at any time. 2) Polyandry as observed in sambandham unions in central and south Kerala 3) Hypergamous sambandhams were used to increase social status and for euthenics. 
However it must be remembered that tarditionally the children born out of Sambandham were considered legitimate children, the husband had the duty to provide gifts at stipulated periods, and had to pay for the delivery expenses even if he was Nambudiri. So the sambandham had a ritualistic element however small it may be, it had social sanction and produced children that were considered legitimate in the matrilinial family. This was not the case of the child of a devadasi even at the same period. Moreover Sambandham was governed by rules , there was a definition of what was not an acceptable “sambandham” . For instance.
1. Unless the mother was ritually married by a man of appropriate caste and, unless the
biological paternity of the child was vouched by a man of appropriate caste, a child could
never be considered legitimate.
2. If the union was with a man inferior in rank the women was outcasted and the union not legal.
3. Even in case of polyandric practice as Hamilton notes that there was a restriction on the number of men a Nayar women could enter in to sambandham.
For people who fail to see sambandham from a matrilinial perspective i have a question -  "In  kovilakams during a Sambandham union, sometimes husbands (Kozhi-thampuran) of higher birth but poorer means were often even designated revenue from their wife´s estate for the maintenance of their natal homes. Would you call this poor soul a male prostitute of a female prostitute then ?" One has to therefore have social perspective of what constitutes legal sanction before jumping in to conclusion based on a one sided view of things. Therefore, although the elementary family of one father, one mother and their children was not institutionalized as a legal, residential, or economic unit, and although individual men had no significant rights in their particular wives or children, the Nayars did institutionalize the concepts of marriage and of paternity, and gave ritual and legal recognition to both. Even if that does not satisfy then the Malabar Marriage Act, 1896 (Act IV of 1896) recognizes sambandham to be a legal union.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 15:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look a sociologist must never look at things like these from the view points of today. To simply put it, 100 years back sambandham was marriage. The definition of marriage wasnt what we consider it today. So it is also just to say that while judging sambandhams dont look at it from the definitions of today. Manu  —Preceding comment was added at 05:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Sambandham'' - a loose but neverthless a marriage 

message: There is already a discussion going on in the Ezhava and Malayalee article. How about we resolve that first? It seems you have migrated over to this article to engage in some sort of ridiculous "tit-for-tat" behaviour. Please. I'm requesting you to help us resolve the issues on the first two pages. If you feel that strongly, then please discuss what is wrong with this article. I have already responded to points brought up by Vvmundakkal. I'd appreciate it if you guys joined in. --vi5in[talk] 06:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To certain people agonizing over this article 

message: He was the third son of the Pallava king Sugandha from Kancheepuram by the name Bodhidharma (He was known as Bada/Ta Mo in chinese; Japanese: Daruma) and was very well educated in  Vedas, Budhism, medicine, meditation, philosophy and Vajramushti (unarmed combat), Varma Kalai (known as Marma Adi in Kerala) and Kuttu Varisai from his Gurus. Bodhi Dharma was extremely religious and this extreme religious attitude caused  his father, King  Sugandha to  arrange a marriage for the prince as a distraction. The adamant Bodhi Dharma (Bada) became a Budhist monk instead , and migrated to China somewhere around 495-520 AD and established a temple in the Shao mountain forest . This temple/monastery/order came to be known as Shaolin temple and propagated what we know today as Shaolin Kungfu. Some lineages of Karate also claimed Shaolin origins. Martial arts traditions in Japan and Korea, and Southeast Asia cite this Chinese influence as transmitted by Buddhist monks. So this is the link between oriental martial arts and Kalaripayattu and also this poor Budhist monk was therefore neither an Ezhava nor a Nair but a Pallava prince.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you need to bring in Ezhava into this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.58.6 (talk) 17:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Lets not not talk much about  Bodhidharma and karate. Lets come back to Kalari. Its ezhavas who trained nairs kalari and related Marama chikitsa and its form varma adi. If you take some examples for famous king Zamorin, kallingu madathil an ezhava family of calicut were the kalari trainers. If you take panthalam king Cheerapanchira and vallabhasseril were the kalari trainers. if you take kayamkulam kingdom, alummootil channars were kalari trainers and varanapallil panickers were commandors. if you mudakathur(Mavelikkara), lakshana panickers were kalari trainers.Mundakkal chekavars were part army of venadu and were kalari trainers. Puthiooram veed had  famous kalari. Tulunadan kalari was also run by ezhava trainers. These are just some of the example you can put here. 124.125.228.205 06:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: could you please tell me where PHILLIP B. ZARRILLI refrers that Kalaripayattu was dominated by Nairs after referring his papers here. We all know that he has done better work on Kalaripayattu than anyone. 61.95.201.56 11:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: See man, Zarrilli, Phillip B has never mentioned much about chekavan caste. He has never mentioned much about ankachekavars, aromal chekavar, uniyarcha etc. But talks about thacholi othenana. We can see the influence CVN kalari master here. Also he talks more about Keralolpathi of brahmins and describise more about Aryan influence of the art. Mum much traditional inluence. Though he had done much research on kalari, its less authentic that other refrence which is clearly gives description of  letter of Duth resercher very long back. Go kerala, ask anyone in kulathoor in TVM who were actually trainers of ettuveettil pillamar.If you can figure out familis whose memebers were part of ettuveettil pillamar's army, you can conclude on the subject.124.125.228.205 12:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: This will clear everything. The details are here. It says Ezhavas(otherwise called silgos), tree climbers , also bound to wars and arms. These people will also serve to teach nayros in fencing school;further theior occupation is to tap coconut trees and suri, arrack and sugar therefrom, so that they usually have plenty of pelf. refer point 108 of this page here . page number 50.  The book name is Hendrik Adriaan Van Reede Tot Drakenstein (1636-1691) and Hortus Malabaricus by J. Heniger.  . Published 1986 CRC Press. 124.125.228.205 11:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: comman man!!! dont fed up with analysing too much. Now-a-days an LKG student can understand that. also mean they have many professions. that it. Also by chekon he doesnt mean only ankachekavars. he talks about the entire community. see his description. 124.125.228.205 12:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Truth behind the budhist monk-extrapolated claims 

message: In case the moderator may be interested for considering additional references from anthroplogical research articles for Nair militia, I am providing here with 4 new references plus the exact statement from them.
1. “The Nairs who once formed the militia of the land and tenantry of the Brahmin janmis”
Economic Backwardness of Harijans in Kerala P. SivanandanSocial Scientist, Vol. 4, No. 10 (May, 1976), pp. 3-28
2.“Peace and order were insured in an area by the presence of the local Nayar militia. There were usually one or two temples in each tara or desam”
Kerala and Madras: A Comparative Study of Ecology and Social Structure Joan P.MencherEthnology, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Apr., 1966), pp. 135-171
3. “It is also probable that the Nayar kinship system was speci- fically influenced by their occupation as a permanent, specialized militia”
Changing Kinship Usages in the Setting of Political and Economic Change Among the Nayars of Malabar E. Kathleen Gough,The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 82, No. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1952), pp. 71-88
4. “the case of the Nayars may be the exigencies of service as militia men”
A Study of Polyandry by Prince Peter of Greece Current Anthropology, Vol. 6, No. 1 (Feb., 1965), pp. 88-104  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 15:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nair militia- Additional references for the article 

message: "also spelled  Nair  Hindu caste of the Indian state of Kerala. Before the British conquest in 1792, the region contained small, feudal kingdoms, in each of which the royal and noble lineages, the militia, and most land managers were drawn from the Nayars and related castes"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 13:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Samanthans are basically aristocratic Kiriyam Nairs and the Thirupad Kshatriyas have Nair origins, only difference being that some Rajahs wear a punul (this is not widespread amongst Rajahs either). There are Nairs who are Samanthans and have "Varma" title, as well as Thirupads who have "Varma". The Britannica entry should be put into the article.Malayaliyan 07:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Encyclopedia britannica about Nairs 

message: Let's discuss the concept of NAIR as a religion independent of Hinduism. This idea is not original, since the same was flouted by the Late M P Narayana Pillai, writer and columnist a year or so before his death.
Let's consider the Nair traditions of worship, such as rituals in obeisance to the Serpent Gods.Was the custom imbibed from the Aryan faith? No, Certainly not. The Nairs had a systemised religion and form of worship that must have amazed the early Aryans who crossed into Tulunadu (Payyannur, Kasargod) in the early centuries of the last century or later (it's again a matter of dispute).This fertile land in the shade of the Sahyan had developed the Tamtra Vidya and Mantra Vidya much before the advent iof Aryans. Shakti or the Primordial Female was worshipped too, and so was her Yoni. The Nairs did n't have to wait for the Aryans to come down south and teach them the art of invoking power.The culture had established itself, already by then, and what followed was little more than an assimilation of sorts.(For example, 'kATHAKALI' evolved from 'Ramanattam' which in turn must have been the transmutation of a form of war-dance unique to the Nairs, who had , by then perfected 'Kalaripayattu'the martial art form that helped keep the Nair Chieftains firmly on the saddle. )
M P Narayana Pillai points to the stark differences between the Hindus who induced their females to immolate themselves in the husband's funeral pyre, to Nairs among whom the female always had the right to dispence with the husmand(s) whom she had developed a dislike for. Nair females enjoyed great freedom a time when women were systematically relegated to secondary status every where else.How did it all turn out like this and what's common between Hindus and Nairs? Let's discuss.Toothpaste Kumar 08:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NAIR AS A RELIGION 

message: Some people feel that this section is rather long. Any suggestions on how to condense it? --vi5in[talk] 19:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vivaham

message: Instead of the vivaham older and newer version just one section vivaham is proposed. 
Vivaham 
Presently the Nairs do not practice either of the three forms of marriages described above but perform Vivaham (Marriage) recognized by the Hindu Marriage act of 1955. It is ceremonially the shortest in comparison to its counterparts from other Indian castes and regions. The marriage ceremony among Nairs has changed considerably over the past two hundred years. 
Vivaha Nischayam / betrothal - The first ceremony is the Vivaha Nischayam or simply Nischayam. In this ceremony, an astrologer is consulted to set an auspicious date for the wedding. Horoscopes may or may not be compared depending on the wish of the individual or their families. After both families consent to the marriage, the couple visits the bride's home. During the celebration, there may be a mothiram mattal (ring exchange) ceremony. This ceremony may also be conducted later, during the actual vivaham ceremony. 
Kalyanam / Marriage - The actual wedding may take place in a kalyana mandapam (a hall rented for the occasion) or the padinitta (principal/western room of the bride´s house, where religious ceremonies are conducted), or a temple. The marriage proceeds through distinct ritualistic steps as described below.
Varavelppu - In this ritual, the bride's family receives the groom's family at the entrance of the venue of marriage, to the tune of nadaswarams (long wind-instruments) and the beats of the thayli (large drums beaten with curved sticks). The groom stands on a wooden plank while the bride's younger brother washes his feet. The bride's aunts perform aarti for the groom with a platter on which are arranged wicks made of twisted cotton. The groom is then escorted to the mandapam (platform constructed to perform the wedding rites) by two rows of young girls. One girl carries the changala vatta (sacred oil lamp), while another carries the ashtamangaliyam. The girls following the first two, carry the taala phuli (platters of rice, turmeric, and flowers on which oil lamps made of coconut shells are placed). With his parents on either side, the groom follows the girls around the mandapam and seats himself on the right side of the canopy, which is decorated by flowers, fabric, palm fronds, and banana stalks.
 
Thaali-kettu/ tying of the thaali-The bride is now escorted by her aunt or mother to the mandapam to the sound of the nadaswarams and thaylis and is made to stand facing to the east, with the groom facing her. At the auspicious moment set by the astrologer for the muhurtham (the most auspicious time), the groom ties the thaali (a marriage cord consisting of a gold ornament strung from a yellow thread ) around the bride's neck and this is accompanied by a special beating of drums (Ketti melam) or a special cry (Vai Kurava).
Vastradanam/Gift of cloth - After the tying of the thaali, the groom gifts the bride a sari and a blouse on a platter. He may also give her betel leaves and areca nuts. This signifies that he will now assume the responsibility of providing for her. The groom's mother also gifts the bride with some jewelry at this time. This custom is reminiscent of the Podamuri during the sambandham ritual.
Maala maattal / Exchange of garlands -The couple then exchange garlands accepting each other as life partners. The bride's father then places the bride's hand in the groom's, thus handing over his daughter to the groom in holy matrimony. 
Namaskaram /Anugraham vangal / blessing: The bride and groom touch the feet of the elders of the family and receive blessings and this process is called Namaskaaram .
Sadhya / feast: After the blessings , the whole party is invited to take part in a feast. 
Kudi veppu/ entering the bridegrooms house- This ritual involves the first entry of the newly wed in to the bride grooms house.The groom's mother and older female relatives perform aarti with an oil lamp (which rests on a platter heaped with rice mixed with turmeric) and receive them at the entrance. Both bride and groom enter the house, right foot forward. The bride is then required to kick over a large pot containing rice, symbolizing prosperity.
After the wedding ceremony a wedding reception may be performed if the families so wish.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 13:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed concise version for vivaham 

message: I would assume, on the first place that a large number of the visitors to this page can read malayalam, and therefore a sizeable portion may be familiar with the "thriakshari" called VKN, the enfant terrible of Malayalam literature; a genius unsung; an intellectual derided by both the Left and right wings in Kerala's politics for the simple reason that he'd n't ever bothered to toe "the politically correct" line all through his illistrious career spanning five decades. While Tom , Dick and Harry were given - and continue to be given - state burials, the men in charge of Kerala's State Funds pretended they had n't heard of the giant's ( in real life too, for he was six feet 2")passing away.
I hope I do not have to elaoborate. VKN's satire is in a genre by itself.History at his fingertips,with an astonishing grasp of Classics in Sanskrit as well as in the modern European Languages, with his penetrating insights into the Political Farce called communism that foisted itself on the agrarian society in Kerala, VKN 's imagination captured the Palace Intrigues of Cochin with as much ease as it composed dissertations of Social comment on contemporary reality.
VKN has no equals. His literary style is one of its kind , perhaps in the entire world, notwithstanding his Hemingway like abhorrence of the adjective ( The adjective kills the verb- Ernest Hemingway.) 
The creator of Payyans, Nanvaar, Chathans, Thandaars ( Thandan Raman, the new Ezhava capitalist post land reforms, whom Chathans has only scorn for!), Chekkans, Sir Chathu, Raman Namboothiri, Chekkan Rajavu ( a la Rajiv Gandhi), Colonel Renu, Ambi, Itoopu Muthalali a la Current Books Thoma,.... the characters are numerous and are very much alive, continuing to enthrall discerning readers, despite the changing times.
Well, the point is, it's time the intellectual Nair community that has prospered and made contributions in various walks of life, sat up and looked at the neglect. Let's promote VKN- though the old man would have scoffed at the very idea; he had n't cared to approach any "Purogamana Peruchazhi", in his own words, for help of any kind.
Let us get him his due- though posthumously.I would invite a lively discussion on this topic.
Akayil Ilaya Nair (talk) 11:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  V K N or Vadakke Koottaalayil Narayanankutty Nair 

message: I have found a suitable image for the article:
Could you please add this image to the article (preferably under the section "Subcastes")
Thank you Malayaliyan (talk) 07:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: moved from my talk, — xaosflux Talk 12:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Edit declined. I cannot verify what this image represents, since it comes from a website that is not in English. Sandstein 06:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Image request

message: FYI to all.  In case this place goes nuts, see this this fun we are having at Ezhava.  If any of this have been ongoing, please comment there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI 

message: * The Theories of origin part mentions the Keralamahatmayam as an ancient sanskirt purana etc. In detail, it is an Upa Purana or sub Purana of the Bhoogola Purana ie it is a part of the latter. That needs to be added. (Source Travancore State Manual Vol I by Nagam Aiya)
* The highest of Swaroopathil Nairs were known as Paravoor Swaroopies and they were the only Swaroopi Nairs to have purification rites performed by Maarans because they were initially of the Illam subdivision. This needs to be mentioned in the subcastes section (Source Castes and Tribes of Southern India by Edgar Thurston) Thats it for now. Manu  —Preceding comment was added at 09:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some corrections