Talk:Catherine of Bosnia

message: She is not BOSNIAN, becase there has never been and there is no ethnicity called Bosnian! She is either Croatian or Serbian, Its up to you people to prove by facts and do not use new books whre Bosniaks try to chanfe the history, look at historical documents or encyklopedia britannica  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.216.166.187 (talk) 23:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, right. She was a Bosnian Queen, yet she was not Bosnian. Surtsicna (talk) 09:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I am also Bosniak and I visit Kraljeva Sutjeska and Bobovac often. I also visiting place on every Oct.25 or last Friday in August, when and as frequently as I am able, to honor Queen Catherine - it is simply a question of personal sensibility toward our homeland Bosnia and our ancestries.
As for this moron from Bijeljina, who falsely represents himself as a Bosniak (and he was not registered or log in), he should know that this web site will leave traces in the form of an IP address (and his 87.250.113.209 as we can see). But well, it's OK, at least he is not from Loznica or Šabac. (To other people, please don't ask why I assume (know!) that he is not Bosniak, just because he is from Bjeljina.) Bjeljinska morončina!--Umagli (talk) 16:47, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am the one who said: "I think I would know something about that [Muslims giving their prayers for the Queen on the last Friday in August] because I am Bosniak. I've never heard of that." I wasn't registered back then and I honestly didn't know about that tradition. Anyway, you should think twice before calling someone a "a moron from Bijeljina" because a moron from Bijeljina probably wouldn't revert nationalistic edits this often and advise other users to fight vandals. I am not offended because you obviously thought that I am somebody other than a Bosniak from Mostar (how did you come up with Bijeljina anyway?). However, I would like you to think twice before repeating this. Pozdrav! Surtsicna (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Oh, by the way, do you have any references for your claim? English-language sources are preferred, but reliable Bosnian-language ones would be good too. Surtsicna (talk) 16:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosniak does pay tribute to Queen Katharina ! 

message: , I did not notice that it was you who added those sources (and information). I assumed it was a pre-expansion leftover. Anyway, the information you added directly contradicts the information I added, i.e. the biographies of the Queen. They state that she lived in Pigna (in a house near San Marco Evangelista al Campidoglio) until her death. Neither of yours is a biography, and I doubt they mention the Queen more than in passing. One of them was published 90 years ago. That said, I don't think they add much quality to the article. Surtsicna (talk) 16:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Ciao , and thanks for answering. No, your sources are wrong: all the Italian topographical sources about Rome agree that Catherine lived first near San Marco and then, after her return to Rome, spent the last 2 years of her life in this house in Piazza Scossacavalli in Borgo (the house, possibly a palazzetto, was property of the Zon, a patrician family from Venice), and was her domicile when she died. This is surely notable in a biography, that's why I added it to the article 3 months ago, and re-added now. This fact is mentioned on many other Italian sources: I could add another couple of very authoritative books confirming it (BTW, the fact that a source is 90 years old has nothing to do with its reliability :-)). This is also particularly noteworthy because after her death the same house was rented to another queen also in exile, Charlotte of Cyprus, who lived there for sure after 1481 (first contract of location) and after 1484 (second contract of location), and most probably died also there. BTW, this house does not exist anymore, since the whole quarter was destroyed in 1937 by Benito Mussolini for the erection of Via della Conciliazione. A last question: for which reason should the house near San Marco be notable and that in Borgo (where she most probably died) not? Alex2006 (talk) 17:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we have a significant disharmony between sources. The biographies of Catherine, from 1979 and 2010 respectively, and that of her husband, from 1991, state that she lived first at the house of the Roman citizen "Jakob Mentebona". They all claim that she lived there until 1469, when she moved to Pigna, into a house near San Marco and possibly owned by Saint Jerome's, where she lived until her death. None of them mention Borgo or a third residence for that matter. You seem certain that "your" books on Rome are more authoritative than "my" books on Catherine, but I am not. Of course, a book from 1926 is not inherently unreliable, but it can be presumed that it has been superseded. Surtsicna (talk) 17:56, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason why I think that my :-) sources are "better" (only in this respect, of course) is simple: these books are about the topography of Rome: this means that they deal with the buildings of the city, their history, their inhabitants. These authors had (and have) access to the archives of the city and of the Vatican, and the fact that I have 6 books (from 1926 until 2001) stating the same fact should mean that this is well established. On the other side, I find also strange that your sources do not mention it at all. Do the authors know Italian? If someone has found that the info about her last residence is wrong, you should find a note in one of these books stating it. BTW, doing some OR, :-)at that time Borgo was the most fashionable "new" quarter of the city, near the Pope, while the neighborhood near the Capitol was quite dilapidated, so I am not surprised that a queen could decide to live near the Vatican, and not in the old centre. Alex2006 (talk) 19:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand the merits of the books concerning Rome and its buildings, but people who researched Catherine and wrote extensively about her should also be expected to know where she lived and died. Those are the most basic information. The first of her biographers cited here, Bazilije Pandžić, worked for 40 years as the chief archivist of the Franciscan Order in Rome. So yes, he does know Italian (and Latin, I believe it's safe to assume). Pandžić describes the places where she lived in Rome: (1) the name of the owner of the first house ("Jakov Mentebono"), the monthly rent she paid (20 ducats), the date she started paying it (29 October 1467), the date when the papacy decided to pay the rent for her (23 March 1468), and the date she left the house (1 October 1469); (2) the location of the second house (Pigna, near San Marco), possible owner (Saint Jerome's) and the names of the courtiers who attended her there. He says she made her will in this second house. This, in fact, is evident from the will itself: "...illustrissima domina Catherina quondam ducis Stephani filia, regina Bosne, nunc in alma Urbe in regione Pinee in domo sue solite habitationis prope ecclesiam sancti Marci de Urbe..." Surtsicna (talk) 20:55, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think that her will cut the bull's head, as we say in Italy. :-) I removed the info, and thanks a lot for taking time to show that my sources were wrong (unless she lived in two houses in Rome during this period, but assuming this would be really OR): possibly none of the Italian writers knew about her will, otherwise they would have seen the incongruence.  Greetings from the Tiber, :-) and my compliments for the article! Alex2006 (talk) 07:53, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem, thank you for taking an interest! I wish we had a photograph of her tombstone from Ara Coeli; lots are availabe online, but they are not free. Would you be able to provide one? Surtsicna (talk) 11:42, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This is telepathy! :-) Just yesterday I was thinking that it wouldn't be bad to go to the Ara Coeli and take a picture of her tomb...I could also go with a good fellow of mine who is specialized (among others) in taking pictures of Rome for Wikipedia. Last month (I was in Zürich then) I asked her to take a picture of another tomb in S. Maria dell'Anima (for this article that is right now on DYK), and I  got it in a couple of hours...power of wiki! As soon as I will have the picture, I will let you know. Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 16:31, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be splendid! A Flickr user who owns an image responded to my message today, but he apparently does not speak Italian (and, as far as I could gather, does not seem interested in sharing the image). I thought of asking you to message him, but this sounds miles better! Surtsicna (talk) 21:39, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

text: Oh, Alex2006, would it be possible to take an image of the entire scene, such as here? That would leave room for the 1677 reproduction in the infobox, i.e. it would not become redundant. What do you think? Surtsicna (talk) 13:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the friars of AraCoeli are pretty liberals concerning the pictures which one takes in their church, so no problem, hoping that my camera manages to do it... :-) Alex2006 (talk) 13:28, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Links to Mandic's and Regan's work don't work because years of publishing differ in the source section and citation. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch! Surtsicna (talk) 12:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Year of publishing of Mandic's and Regan's work