Talk:Swiss Guards

message: When the Italian kingdom annexed what was left of the Papal States in 1870, what role, if any, did the Swiss Guard play? Michael Hardy 19:27, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: What happened in 1870?

message: Their uniforms are worth of mention I think. They were designed by Michelangelo.--Drozmight 11:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the article and take it that these are the uniforms they wear today?  On the Vatican website it states that the Swiss have had a uniform since their introduction into the Vatican.--MrNiceGuy1113 (talk) 19:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

text: This seems like a logical change, although I'm not sure you need to put, "according to the Vatican." I think the reference should be sufficient enough.--MrNiceGuy1113 (talk) 19:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uniforms 

message: I read elsewhere that the Swiss Guard kept Nazi troops out of the Vatican during the Nazi occupation of Rome. Is this true? And if so, does anyone know the details?
24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: World War II

message: I did some research on Google, and found that the Swiss Guards are armed with the Sig 75 9mm Pistol specifically.  Any objection to adding this to the page where the Sig pistol is mentioned? Matt 10:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Weaponry

message: The page reports that German is the official language of the guard, and presents the oath in German. Besides the fact that it seems to me quite strange a police unit speaking a different language from the official one of its country, the oath is given in the guard language: this means that most of the guards speak in German, some in French, and a few in Italian. Would you please check this matter?--Panairjdde 09:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing about this in the conditions for admission, and I very much doubt that it is the case. It would be extremely hard to find 100 people in Switzerland who fit the condition of admission AND fluently speak 6 languages. Schutz 14:20, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have met Swiss people who speak German, Swiss German, English and French. Switzerland seems to be a country that is excellent at languages. I am sure it is not hard to find men who meet the physical requirement and language requirement.  Also, those that need to take an Italian course seems to be what most Europeans would do, learn the language of the country.--MrNiceGuy1113 (talk) 19:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true that in multilingual European countries such as Switzerland, it's common for people to speak more than one of the country's official languages (even though I'd like to add that Swiss German is not usually counted as a language different from German; it's a dialect of Standard German, but not a language in its own right). This, plus the fact that many of them will also learn one or more foreign languages, makes them quite poyglot, especially by comparison to American standards of language learning (no offence intended). But believe me, even in Switzerland it would be very rare to find somebody fluent in six or more languages - and even those rare people who do must still satisfy the other requirements, plus they must be willing to enlist for the Swiss Guard (rather than use their linguistic skills to get another, presumably better paid, job elsewhere). It is very unlikely that the Swiss Guard could easily recruit enough people to fill vacancies if fluency in six languages were a requirement - for which we have no evidence anyway. SchnitteUK (talk) 18:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official language 

message: ..is actually all German; there's not a single French or Italian word in it (OK, one or two are very obviously derived from Latin, but that's it, they're still German). Plus the translation of the part the recruits have to say is sort of faulty; "so wahr mir Gott und seine Heiligen helfen" means "may God and his saints help me".. 23:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What's your point? The reason they showed the German oath is because that's what it most commonly given. --KelticKTalk 23:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Oath.. 

message: How does the US National Guard relate to this article? --Miked84 23:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all, except for also having "guard" in its name. :-) Lupo 08:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See Also 

message: The article currently says on the Papal Swiss Guard that it "is an exception to the Swiss rulings of 1874 and 1927". I thought all mercenary services were explicitly forbidden already in article 11 of the 1848 constitution of Switzerland "Es dürfen keine Militärkapitulationen abgeschlossen werden" (its first constitution as a modern federal state). In fact, the Swiss Historical Encyclopedia says (in French): "Comme la Constitution fédérale de 1848 interdisait toute nouvelle capitulation militaire, Pie IX se décida à conclure un accord directement avec la garde. Depuis lors, le recrutement se fait par relations personnelles." ("As the constitution of 1848 prohibited all new military capitulations, Pope Pius IX decided to sign a contract directly with the Guard. Since then, all recruitement is done through personal private channels.") What are these "relations personnelles", and what is the legal standing of a Swiss Guard? Is it viewed (legally) not as a military or mercenary service but as an ordinary employment? May a Swiss citizen legally serve as a mercenary under a private contract (say, in the French Légion étrangère)? I thought not. What about the Papal Swiss Guard? Why the mentions of 1874 and 1927, and what "rulings" are meant? (1874 probably refers to the revision of the Swiss constitution, but I am unaware of that revision having changed anything with respect to mercenary services.) Lupo 08:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Papal Swiss Guard and the Swiss constitution 

message: I think the article should be Papal Swiss Guards and
the link from vatican related articles changed.
--Gbleem 02:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. However, if this article grows, we could separate out Papal Swiss Guard and just leave a summary here. The Papal Swiss Guard was nothing special, and in fact rather insignificant in history (maybe with the exception of their role in the Sack of Rome), whereas e.g. the Cent-Suisses have a rich military history. What does make the Papal Swiss Guard special is the mere fact that it still exists today. Lupo 07:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Papal Swiss Guards vs. other Swiss Guards. 

message: This section claims critics attacked Estermann's character. No evidence is offered as to who was supposedly doing this and what they were saying. If a statement like this is used sources and evidences have to be provided. The entire article lacks anything much in the way of sourcing, but this entire paragraph seems for the most part to be POV-pushing. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 22:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Estermann Killing 

message: no references are listed, and the footnotes dont link properly to refences.
Sam Bedggood 06:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Was due to vandalism. Reverted now. Lupo 11:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  references 

message: I'd prefer to see the vaguely redundant :Image:SwissGuardsatPrefettura.jpg and  :Image:Vatican 2.jpg removed, as they offer nothing that the main image does not - and some more unique images brought in, perhaps of the murdered officer, the ranks, a procession, something more than a "touristy postcard image" which is better suited to remain on WIkicommons Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  17:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: It appears that the Pfyffer von Altishofen family has a tradition of being the head of the Swiss Guard since the 1500's. It would be interesting to read more about this. --Kimonandreou 15:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family Tradition? 

message: I notice this was removed by an anonymous editor on 14 January. Granted, the section seems to have been a bone of contention in the past, but it seems somewhat remarkable that there should now be no mention of Estermann at all on the page, apart from in the list of Commanders. One would think that him ceasing to be one ten hours after the appointment as a result of a violent death would be worth a mention! Nick Cooper 22:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Estermann killing" section 

message: Does anyone know how much members of the Swiss Guard are paid? Just wondering, (12.218.46.67 04:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salary? 

message: Does anyone know - Does the swiss guard travel with the pope?Agatha61 17:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Travel Abroad 

message: Are the guards of the Pope allowed to marry? If so, when? The Guard Commander whowas murdered had a wife. I am a neutral editor (talk) 03:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is, as a matter of "nice to know", the occasion for women and prospective children to become Vatican State citizens. --84.154.87.182 (talk) 09:48, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marriage 

message: I'm just curious, are there any women Swiss Guards? I've only seen pictures of men. Thanks! Kim A M  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.151.116 (talk) 15:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women? 

message: Hi,
I removed the sentence: "Its official language is Swiss German."
There was no source for it, and it was already discussed in 2005 (see the section "Official language" above).
If there is an official language, it should be precisely noted whether it is Swiss German, Swiss Standard German, Standard German, simply German or something else - according to the cited source, of course.
Thanks for understanding. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swiss German 

message: Is it true, that the swiss guard is trained in original medieval martial arts with the long sword? This would be the last existiting tradition line of the long sword.--85.3.27.44 (talk) 08:54, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martial Arts 

message: I redirected Feldweibel to Feldwebel.  That page includes a reference to the spelling difference within the Swiss army.--Gaarmyvet (talk) 01:51, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feldweibel 

message: :Image:Gardes suisses au Vatican.jpg appears to be primarily an image of the "Swiss Guard Band" in that they are carrying musical instruments as well as being armed with swords.  Is the band a separate formation?  It seems unlikely that a force of 135 would also have to provide a band, but the issue isn't addressed.--Gaarmyvet (talk) 16:14, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Band 

message: I pulled out some uncited material the other day. Someone restored it, requesting that I add a "citations needed" tag instead. Because that is not how WP:V works, and because the article has already been so tagged for more than a year, I have stricken the material again. When it has inline citations to reliable sources, it should be fine to go back up. — Bdb484 (talk) 14:38, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The material deleted (essentially the text of the oath taken on enlistment) was incorporated by editor Roper on 6 August 2004. Unfortunately he or she has long since ceased involvement in Wikipedia. Could someone with current knowledge of the Pontifical Swiss Guard provide the inline citation sought? My own contributions to this article have been limited to the French Gardes Suisse. Buistr (talk) 05:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I restored the deleted content and add refs from the Holy See. Applying WP:V without checking with Google first is a bit harsh. --Alberto Fernandez Fernandez (talk) 08:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Initial Googling yielded what you came up with, which is material from the pope's website. I'm not sure that the Vatican constitutes a WP:RS for this information (or for babysitting). Thoughts? — Bdb484 (talk) 18:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Swiss guards are the Vatican state "police" force. So Vatican official website is a reliable source for this factual information. Interpretation or explanation of the oath may need other sources Imho
Alberto  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.189.91.252 (talk) 19:35, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I get that they provide those services for the Vatican, but I'm not clear on whether that makes the Vatican a reliable source, as they aren't really an arm of the Vatican, but something more like an outside contractor. If Bank of America uses Pinkerton Security to load and unload its vaults, Pinkerton may be the official security team for BOA, but that doesn't make BOA the authoritative source on Pinkerton's history. My understanding was that this was an analogous relationship. Is that correct, or is the Pontifical Swiss Guard not actually Swiss? — Bdb484 (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, it is a military unit of the Vatican which for historical reasons recruits in Switzerland. The Swiss state has no formal connection with it (except for lifting their normal ban on foreign service for Swiss citizens).  Thanks for clearing this up Alberto - if the Vatican website is not a reliable source for their own form of traditional wording then what is? Thanks also to Bdb484 for cleaning out the "in popular culture" section. Some remarkably irrelevant rubbish had accumulated there.Buistr (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  To my understanding, they are linked to the person of the Pope and the Holy See and not to the Vatican State. That's why imho putting their oath on wiki article brings an added value to the article. But I want to correct my previous statement about "vatican police force", they are NOT the  police force but the personal guard of the Pope (hence the wording Pontifical/Papal Swiss Guards). The civilian police force of the Vatican State (not the Holy See) is the Corps of Gendarmerie of Vatican City. Hope I made my point clearer --Alberto Fernandez Fernandez (talk) 07:31, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  If that's the case, it seems like that would be a good source. Do we have anything establishing that this is the case? — Bdb484 (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncited material 

message: Does anyone know - Is the swiss guard the only protection the pope has, or is there any additional security? Jfeckstein 02:43, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I found this article stating that the pope is protected by a combination of Swiss guard, Italian police and Vatican police forces. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1950150,00.html--MrNiceGuy1113 (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

text: In 1979 the Swiss Guard was limited to 100. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/577173/Swiss-Guards--MrNiceGuy1113 (talk) 18:54, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc. Comments 

message: At the end of this entry, it says that the Swiss Army is the oldest standing army. But within this article, it says that at times, the Swiss Army has been disbanded and was later reestablished years later. This would seem to undermine the claim that it was the oldest standing army since for years, it didn't exist at all.
69.125.134.86 (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oldest Standing Army? 

message: I believe that the content on the Pontifical Swiss Guard deserves to be a separate article. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Any article on "Swiss Guards" will inevitably be dominated by the Papal bodyguard as the sole surviving example of this type of military unit. However there is a strong connection between the modern guard at the Vatican and the historic Swiss Guards who served at the French and other royal courts. On the grounds of simplicity and ready access, I think that there is a good case for retaining a single article.Buistr (talk) 01:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Splitting would leave an "other than papal" article that would be little more than a stub.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 03:01, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, right now, it looks like a badly-performed merge, so, unless we can retool this article, I'm still in favor of splitting. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 19:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

text: I've come from the RfC, although I'm not an official commenter.  I have done some work on the Papal Zouaves and other (admittedly non-military) aspects of the pre-1871 Papal States.  My opinion is that there is more than enough in this article for three articles - one on the general phenomena of Swiss merceneries, one on the Pontifical Guard (which really needs its own article) and one on the guards who served the French crown.  The fact that these can be interlinked means that there really is not a problem with putting in one article.  The current article is rather unbalanced with the article talking about one historical phenomenem (impoverished Swiss men fanning out across Europe as merceneries as a way of life) and another (a small subset of Catholic Swiss men serving in one of the world's smallest armies as a special dispensatiion from their country's government).  JASpencer (talk) 22:20, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: On reflection I have come to agree that a split would tidy up coverage of two essentially separate topics (sorry Miniapolis!). My own contributions have been almost entirely to the "French and others" section of the article which could remain in its present form down to the "Papal Swiss Guard" sub-heading, with appropriate links. Note that there is a third article on Swiss Mercenaries which covers the phenomenon of poverty leading to foreign soldiering in terms of both the free companies of the 15th-16th centuries and the Swiss line (i.e. non-guard) regiments in foreign service of the 17th-19th centuries. Buistr (talk) 02:02, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: An IP editor did us the favor of updating the number of years the Guard has existed. Is there a template that's supposed to do that?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk  13:46, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Years 

message: You might want to add that one Swiss regiment served in the Waterloo campaign in 1815. They suffered heavy losses in the last French victorious battle in the Napoleonic era- at the Battle of Wavre, June 18, 1815. They served in Grouchy's detached army wing --Joey123xz (talk) 02:51, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: True but they weren't Swiss Guards - rather a composite unit made up of the remnants of the four Swiss line regiments that had served Napoleon from 1803 on. I think that you will find reference is made to them under the article Swiss Mercenaries. Buistr (talk) 03:30, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  SWISS regiment in Waterloo Campaign 1815 

message: ... why dont you not consult the german version „Schweizer Truppen in fremden Diensten“ and the references there? 
A massacre of papal swiss troops 1859 in Perugia led to a special law, which in turn ended in the same year de facto the service of the last official swiss regiments in foreign service (in Naples). The „Hundertschweizer“ were on duty from 1497 until 1830 and the „Schweizer Garderegiment“ was established in 1616 ... Toni Moser (talk) 08:09, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  nice article, but ... 

message: The Last Stand, a song by Sabaton, speaks of the Swiss Guard in 1527. This should be included in the Popular Culture section. Stick-Destiny (talk) 18:24, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sabaton's The Last Stand