Talk:Seth Abramson

message: Hi all, to try and avert an edit war and perhaps help focus on the detail points at issue, I have tried to rewrite the paragraph as a kind of "middle way" to meet everybody's concerns. If I have done wrong, I'd appreciate it if you could explain your reasoning here rather than in the edit comments. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit looks fine. Lovetohave (talk) 18:00, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Minor query: should the second "killings" be changed to "event" (first sentence of graph) to avoid having the word "killings" twice in one sentence, and in close proximity. Lovetohave (talk) 18:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest keeping "killings" so as not to confuse the event with the publication date. I feel the section would benefit from some additional quotes of exactly what the thrust of the criticism was at the time (especially the timing), as reported by Flavorwire here, and The Missouri Review here. Esmeme (talk) 18:07, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like a consensus was reached on this language back in mid-2014. Steelpillow (Talk) has now added an additional link criticizing the text (Flavorwire), and that seems sufficient, especially as the other link was to a blog (not The Missouri Review itself) and other sources looking with more favour upon the work (e.g. Los Angeles Review of Books) are altogether absent. Current language looks fine, second "killings" seems gratuitous and an error of style rather than a clarification. I don't doubt anyone reading the sentence would understand "event" to mean the specific event referenced less than ten words earlier. Lovetohave (talk) 18:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: On edit: the backlash to the backlash appears to be here: http://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/poetics-tragedy/. The author criticises the critics as such: "absent from every piece of writing about the poem — from 140-character, hashtagged takedowns to longer, more sophisticated responses like that of Sims — is discussion of the poem itself as poetry, as an aesthetic work demanding, as all serious art does, the careful critical attention that lies at the heart of the literary discipline. The objections to “Last Words … ”, that is, suffer from the same carelessness of which Abramson himself is accused, foregoing sustained intellectual discussion of the poem — as misogyny, as response to tragedy, as art — in favor of a reactionary political correctness that masks itself as progressive or feminist concern for the victims but in fact occupies a rather conservative position with respect to art and culture. The outcome of such a position is the categorical dismissal of art that takes risks, art that challenges the canons of what can and cannot be said in a poem and who can — or cannot — say it." But I think if we add this the section becomes an unwieldy mess. The edit by Steelpillow (Talk) keeps the minor nature of the event in view. It appears not to have been referenced anywhere on the Internet since the two or three days it was discussed in May 2014. Lovetohave (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I just copyedited out the second "killings" without muddying the meaning. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:27, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Elegantly done. Cheers. Lovetohave (talk) 18:28, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The Missouri Review site is the same blog as the one quoted in the MFA Research Project section of the page, so should that passage also be removed? I get the impression that some of the previous editing on this page (much of it having since been confirmed as sockpuppetry) has applied different standards when it comes to widespread criticism as opposed to very selective praise of Abramson's work. That event and its repercussions do not appear to have been minor, hence his publisher's response, as discussed on the talk page above. Esmeme (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: If you prefer a return to the consensus of mid-2014, that was an edit I attempted. Instead, a link was added (I believe by you) to a website that skewers Abramson (Flavorwire), and Steelpillow (Talk) preserved that addition, and I've not challenged it in my edits. I'd think that sufficient to meet your concerns. As for The Missouri Review, I suppose I do (reviewing the citation) distinguish between an essay penned by the Managing Editor of the magazine and one written by someone identified as "today's blogger." In any case, it seems Steelpillow (Talk) has resolved the issue, indeed the phrasing now appears more critical of Abramson than it did when the consensus language was achieved in 2014. Lovetohave (talk) 18:47, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: As for repercussions, I had to look up what you meant, or could intend, other than the Omnidawn statement criticising the piece, which is already in the article. I'd assumed from your comment there were some lasting repercussions I had overlooked. Instead a Google search immediately returns this: http://omnidawn.tumblr.com/post/87431642548/a-clarification-regarding-our-statement-on-seth. Are you looking to add this clarification to the article? This would seem to indicate that the entirety of the repercussions you cite are already in the article, however. Lovetohave (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

text: I have no intention of getting dragged into this again, aside from pointing out that the only users who previously argued against the inclusion of such criticisms, namely Festal82, Burks88 and ClaphamSix above, all turned out to be sockpuppets, who sought to create the illusion of consensus where there was none. The repercussions to Abramson's piece that I was referring to were both the quantity and severity of the criticisms and the fact that his own publisher felt the need to publicly condemn his actions. Esmeme (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think we are in disagreement here that the publisher's condemnation is noteworthy and should be in the article, and as noted your addition of the Flavorwire citation underscores the severe response the piece received. Those items are present now, and as I have no interest in any other dramas, it does seem the graph as constituted suffices. Lovetohave (talk) 19:13, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I do agree with the point made by  that a little more clarity on the social nature of the transgression - especially it's timing - would be useful here. Lacking any good, reliable evidence of its literary significance, I do not think that any comment should be made on the poetry itself, as that is not the issue at stake. My suggestion would be to add a sentence along the lines of "Both the re-use of the killer's words and the timing of the post, so soon after the killings. caused offence." and add a cite to Christopher Kempf's piece because it begins with a good summary and context of some key criticisms. Meanwhile, you are of course free to move on, in which case I am sure that Esmeme and I would do our best to meet your concerns here (I know from past experience that Esmeme is fundamentally reasonable about these things, though still wary after their treatment at the hands of a very nasty sockpuppeteer). — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:28, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Steelpillow (Talk), I think the language you mention is sensible, I only wonder, when three citations in the graph already make the point you propose adding, what use the addition would be. I suppose some clarity on the status of the 2014 consensus would also be helpful, as it seems the proposal now is to dissolve it. My edit had returned the graph to the prior consensus, yet I am not hearing why that consensus is no longer sufficient. It does not seem there have been additional developments. Lovetohave (talk) 19:41, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

text: I agree . This would be an excellent way to summarise the social nature of the controversy, as clearly detailed at the start of Kempf's piece. Esmeme (talk) 19:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree also, as it does seem an excellent summary of the Kempf piece. While I'm not certain it's necessary given the present citations, it's sensible in any case. Lovetohave (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Change made. Cheers. Lovetohave (talk) 19:55, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: And tinkered with, grin. There is a case to be made that the paragraph is now over-cited, but I don't think we need to discuss that - just remove any cites we consider unnecessary, should we feel inclined. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:06, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:   Elliot Rodger controversy 

message: I'd like to add the edited, significantly shortened paragraph above (the one that begins with "During..." and ends with "creative writer"). Jesse Rafe agreed this content should appear in the article in some form, and this is a significantly edited version of the original, longer paragraph. Right now the article has sections on several of the subject's major activities, and given that much of the national attention the subject has received has been for several distinct "events" on The Huffington Post, what I'm proposing is a section entitled "The Huffington Post" under which we put the paragraph above and the two other (existing, already in article) paragraphs about the subject's activities at The Huffington Post (one about a controversial remix and one about Star Wars). My proposed edit of the original paragraph about The Huffington Post has been up here at the Talk page for weeks now without comment or controversy. Jesse and I think the content should be in, Steelpillow that it should be out, and with no one else weighing in it seems fair to put the content in now on that 2-1 vote, especially as it is edited from its earlier length in response to Steelpillow's concerns. I am also trying to address Steelpillow's concerns about "consigning HuffPost to the cites" by proposing, instead, that we create a natural grouping for major stories involving the subject that originated via the subject's work at The Huffington Post. We've already had another editor (not me, Steelpillow, or Jesse) note that a section titled "Controversies" is less helpful than situating these events under a broader header relating to the subject's life, and for me the obvious header is "The Huffington Post" as that is actually the common denominator here. I'll wait a few days before making this edit to allow for comments on this proposal. SanFran55 (talk) 13:51, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I see nothing notable in the linking of controversies to a particular publication. It's like adding a section on Nature to a notable scientist's page because that's a "common denominator" where their papers were published. Nor is the fact that Abramson publishes in the HP notable in itself (unless a reliable source explains its significance). 2 to 1 is not a "consensus", that requires more contributors and/or evaluation of the strength of the arguments. Please check out WP:CANVASSING before you go wild on that. Also, as your edit history shows you to be a single-purpose account and you are so keen to see the HP in lights here, can you confirm that you personally have no conflict of interest in all this? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:17, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Steelpillow, in that I see nothing here to demonstrate that this is of encyclopedic value. I also think that the Star Wars content's notability is tenuous at best, as I can't see any wider or lasting significance demonstrated here. The Elliot Rodger controversy does, however, as I outlined above, demonstrate notability in relation to the subject of the article, due to his own publisher disowning his actions, which is why this is included in the 'controversy' section. I oppose changing the section title to 'Huffington Post' for the same reasons as Steelpillow. Esmeme (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. At the time, I supported inclusion of the Star Wars publicity stunt "metamodern experiment" as it seemed to be drawing plenty of comment, but if Film School Rejects is the best source available for its literary impact I don't think keeping it is tenable any more. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:00, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we'll certainly have to wait to act on that, as you wrote above, minutes ago, that 2-1 isn't enough of a consensus to change the article without more input. I assume that standard applies to all changes. SanFran55 (talk) 18:07, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We now have three of us agreeing that it is unjustifiable - including you when you wrote disparagingly, "And a page that discusses a single fanboy article on Star Wars because it was mentioned by Film School Rejects?" I have changed my mind and I now agree with you on this one. I see no consensus issue here. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:22, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

text: I can absolutely confirm that. And actually I'm not keen on HP highlights at all, as I've said in the past that an author's old publisher saying they don't like an article by a former author (or editor) isn't encyclopedic material, and no one has shown any precedent for Wikipedia featuring that sort of content. What I've said instead is that the HP becomes relevant when an article written there is talked about by big time media. You have the opposite test, that the less people are talking about an article the more that article should be put in an encyclopedia, so I would love to hear how that makes any sense explained. You seem determined to police this article in a way that maintains negative information about the subject and blocks (usually through section blanking) any neutral coverage. SanFran55 (talk) 18:04, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't be absurd. There is no point in my engaging with such demonstrable failure to assume good faith (qv). — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:37, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Huffington Post'' 

message: On Wikipedia, as in the real world, an "interview" is one person asking another about stuff and giving them an opportunity to reply. A prepared performance with an agreed dialogue is a staged work and not an "interview". It may be staged to appear as an interview, but to claim that it is a real interview is like claiming that the War of the Ring was a real war.  If you disagree, DO NOT EDIT WAR (this is your second warning now) but discuss it here first. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:28, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Staged works vs interviews 

message: I think there should be some mention of his Trump narratives - as covered here: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/liberal-fever-swamps/530736/ | MK17b |   (talk)  19:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Twitter Following - Trump stories 

message: Under the heading "Tweets about Donald Trump", the article states "Several media publications have described Abramson as a conspiracy theorist...". There are two citations for this claim.  The first is an article in the Atlantic Monthly titled "Why Bogus News Stories Are So Hard to Stop".  The only mention of Abramson in that article is the following phrase near the bottom: "...there’s a growing group of outlets and journalis—well, media personalities catering to progressives. This constellation offers everything from improbable stories (Palmer Report) to bizarre conspiracy theories (Seth Abramson) to outlets that aspire to be 'the Breitbart of the left' (Shareblue)."  I don't see this as being a description that Abramson is a conspiracy theorist; it's really more of just name-checking him, relying upon unnamed secondary sources.  And it's interesting that the two other people listed in the Atlantic's description both have sources provided (Palmer Report and Shareblue), but none for Abramson.  The second source (the New Republic) is a bit longer; it devotes a paragraph to Abramson, focusing on a string of Tweets from Abramson on March 23, in which he asserted "The plot to sell America's foreign policy for foreign oil and steal an election in the bargain began at the Mayflower Hotel" and "So other than the RNC and suspicious Trump Tower meetings in December, the Mayflower Speech should get the most attention in Congress" -- from which the New Republic selectively edited off the more significant portion -- "So other than the RNC and suspicious Trump Tower meetings in December..." (emphasis added).  I don't have a dog in this race, and it's not my ambition to "sanitize" Abramson's credibility, merely to point out that his being characterized as a "conspiracy theorist" is supported on such weak grounds that they could apply to literally anyone who makes a claim that may or may not turn out to be factually accurate. The standards used would surely qualify every president since Carter (and perhaps even him) of being a "conspiracy theorist" for having drawn inferences and presented them as true. So I think that the section should be either better-sourced, softened, or removed. Bricology (talk) 01:18, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tweets about Donald Trump, and conspiracy theory 

message: There are a number of problematic edits by a SPA (all of the edits are inaccurately classified as "minor" edits):
* The SPA keeps edit-warring a description of Abramson as a "journalist" (the editor has at other times added "investigative journalist"), which Abramson clearly isn't. Abramson is a "columnist" - he writes columns. He does not report anything. This is very simple.
:::I have tried to politely note to you that this is false, as whether you admire it or not, Proof of Collusion is a work of journalism that is not a "column." Thus the broader term "journalist," which encompasses many different roles, including both columnist and others. SanFran55 (talk) 06:14, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have noted, again politely, that very few academics are editors and that editing a "Best American" anthology is a noteworthy nonacademic role that your edits would erase, it appears because of animosity toward the article subject. SanFran55 (talk) 06:14, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This is simply untrue. I agreed with you that the quote was "misdescribed" and reorganised its framing. You for some reason thought the quote needed to be erased. I think your animosity and tone here suggest you are not seeking to make objective edits. By comparison, you added a scathing review of Abramson's book and I had no issue with it because while I am a fan of Abramson's writing I do not, in fact, want this article to be anything but accurate. SanFran55 (talk) 06:14, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by single-purpose account 

message: This guy's famously long Twitter thread should be included in this article as an example of his work. The thread is as long as a novel and a fine example of investigative reporting into the most important U.S. political news of our lifetime. The thread received thousands of views, educating people about the important truth of the report, fighting back against misinformation. His thread even trended on Twitter, with thousands of tweets about it! It is clear from these things that this thread is one of his best, most important, and most popular works. It deserves a section in the article under "Career". 2600:387:6:805:0:0:0:C1 (talk) 06:17, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I accepted it and made some minor edits. Eman235/talk 08:28, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

text: Are there any secondary sources discussing his tweet? Anyone can publish something on Twitter, and things can go viral quickly. Does not make the author or content notable. If, however, the tweet is discussed in secondary sources (ie, news sources), then it can become notable to include. Spyder212 (talk) 16:10, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

text: It's WP:OR ... your own investigation and judgment about the merit and popularity of his thread. And I say this as someone who follows Seth and has read all 451 tweets in that thread. But neither my opinion, your opinion, nor the opinion of any other editor is relevant -- that's not what Wikipedia is based on. Your entire first paragraph above is out of place on this page. -- Jibal (talk) 03:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  400 tweet long thread about Mueller Report 

message: I've re-added the 2016 writings and critique that were removed in this edit . Abramson got a lot of attention for his 2016 Democratic Primary writings; they deserve mention here. --2600:8805:3B08:1800:A9A5:131A:561D:9CA2 (talk) 23:39, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have an association with Abramson? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:57, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  2016 Democratic Primary Writings 

message: I propose adding a Criticism section to this page. In addition to the Eliott Roger controversy, more recent issues have arisen involving his use of an unreliable source and not correcting the record when brought to his attention (Ken Vogel's Politico piece, specifically regarding Alexandra Chalupa). Disclosure: I'm a sponsor of independent media co-hosted by Chalupa's sister, therefore it might be better if someone else adds this to the article page.
DavidBoudreau (talk) 14:50, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think this would be a good idea in itself, per WP:CRITS, but I do think a section on Reception would be a good idea. Right now the article is littered with references to how Abramson's work has been perceived by others, as a whole and not in a chronologically relevant way. It would clean up the article to break them all out into a new section. —Wingedserif (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to be WP:BOLD and do this. —Wingedserif (talk) 00:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

message: Telmo6T's editing has been noted at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Seth_Abramson; this is a WP:SPA editing only this bio. I've warned them about COIs. Their first edit was to remove a critical quote from the Washington Post and their most recent edit was to remove  as "vandalism". While it may not belong in the lead, this is a high-quality commentary on Abramson's work that should be included. Fences&Windows 16:50, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks. I will partially restore the WaPo quote and start a discussion about expanding the lead. Politrukki (talk) 13:05, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  COI noticeboard thread