Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One/Archive 11

message: :Priority: Low
So this image of Max Mosley is under consideration for deletion. It was released under a Wikipedia-acceptable license, but the issue was raised if it is just a photochop of a copyrighted photo, or a photochop with a head placed on a fake body. If anything, fair use?
The discussion can be found at this link on Commons
Guroadrunner 07:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The head certainly seems legitimately attached to the body.  But yes, there should be a photo that is not done up like that.  I seem to remember there being a normal photo there a few months ago? The359 07:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair use cannot be claimed on an image of a living person. The main problem is that fact that it's proving hard to establish whether the original photo was released under a free licence. The original isn't published on the creators flickr account. As for the head on fake body - check out the heavy compression artifacts on the suit, but crystal clear image of his face. If these parts were always one photo, it should all either be clear or have the compression on it. AlexJ 09:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's definitely a fake image and should be deleted.  The Flickr user also created a similar photo of Alex Wurz, which was uploaded and deleted within 24 hours or so.--Diniz (talk) 09:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Max Mosley image being questioned 

message: Let's make a list:
*GA: 2007 British GP (on hold), under consideration: Toyota F1
*FAC: 2007 Malaysian Grand Prix, (soon) Brabham BT19, 
I'd like to get a full list and then stick them on the taskbox/to-do list for the "evaluate" section. Guroadrunner 07:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brabham BT19 is undergoing peer review at the moment.  I assume it'll be nominated for FAC soon. The359 07:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 2007 French Grand Prix passed GA (although it shouldn't of been!!), but needs more improvement so that it goes against GA guidlines. 2007 Malaysian Grand Prix is in urgent need of comments otherwise that could be getting failed. Yeah, depending on how the PR goes Brabham BT19 could be nominated for FA end of September. Ah, 2007 British Grand Prix failed because nobody improved it......... Davnel03 08:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quick question on the race reports, why did we go from saying "The YYYY Venue Grand Prix was a Formula One motor race held on Month DD, YYYY at the Circuit Name in Town, Country." to "The YYYY Venue Grand Prix was the (rdnumber) race of the YYYY Formula One season. It was held on DD Month at Circuit Name."? The former opening told those who are unaware what F1 is that it was a motorrace, and gave the location of the track. The newer one seems more assuming that the reader knows what F1 is and knows the circuits. AlexJ 11:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea. I always tended to use the first example, see the Malaysia race, while the newer ones was written by other users and put onto articles like the British one above. Davnel03 12:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  So wait, what is up for FAC/GA nomination? 

message: Separated discussion to its own section Guroadrunner 10:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In a month or two, I think we should put Toyota F1 up for GA status again. It's significantly improved since last time. Lradrama 14:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are going to nominate it for GA in a few months, I suggest you remove the statistics section. Davnel03 15:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I partially agree. I think the stats section should be fleshed out more instead of being axed. My issue is the "Notable drivers" section, which overlaps tremendously with the individual articles of Trulli and R. Schumacher. I personally would recommend shrinking that section a bunch, but I add that as a passive criticism (i.e. I'm not going to fight for it). Guroadrunner 10:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we also agree to making the current season report more of a summary? It's getting a bit more like a log don't we think. I think I'd better suggest that before it gets out of hand. Lradrama 16:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, ahould be a summary. Davnel03 19:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Toyota F1]] for GA nomination? 

message: Just thought I'd let you all know that I've re-ordered the members list and put all the usernames in alphabetical order. I think it looks better presented and neater that way, and it makes it easier to find specific Wikipedians if you need a certain user. I've also put an alphabetical order notice in the introduction to that sub-section so it'll be kept that way. :-) Lradrama 11:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. Guroadrunner 05:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Members list 

message: Following the lead of , what do people think of the idea of adding the following fields to  and ?:
* date of birth
* place of birth
* date of death
* retired
* related to
Obviously the fields would be hidden unless populated, and you wouldn't populate them for drivers like Timo Glock, who also have  in their article. DH85868993 08:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, on consideration, I'm not keen. I can see where you are coming from but I firmly believe that an infobox should contain only the essentials, and too many details just serve to obscure the relevant information. We certainly do not need "place of birth", "retired" and "related to", although I can see some biographical merit in the birth and death dates. However... we already have these displayed prominently at the top of the vast majority of articles, is not as if you have to go burrowing through a mountain of prose to find them. Keep boxes punchy and to the point. Pyrope 09:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  +1 with Pyrope's comments - no need for birth date/death date in the box. I don't understand what would be in the "retired" field? I suppose a yes/no parameter?  Guroadrunner 10:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The doc for  indicates this field should be populated with the year the driver retired. DH85868993 10:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you define that??? Is Mansell retired? He still competes now and again in some pretty potent machinery. Is Moss retired? He still goes hammer and tongs in those historic races that he contests. Do you stop a driver's career when they drive their last race, or when they stop looking for a new race drive? And how do you know that they have actaully stopped? The concept is far too nebulous. Pyrope 11:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  While that's a good point for the motorsport infobox, wouldn't the F1 infobox already have "retired" covered in some way with the "last race" marker -- i.e. "retired from F1" like Katayama and Berger -- barring the drivers killed on-track in F1? (and furthermore barring those active F1 drivers killed elsewhere, like Mark Donohue). Guroadrunner 11:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both "last race" and "Participated" already cover that information, and in a far more definite way. Pyrope 11:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As part of the rationalisation of motorsport driver templates, I've been working on a combined F1 driver and former F1 driver template brought in line with the new IRD style to allow them to be stacked nicely. A WIP is here. AlexJ 12:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice, just needs the name a bit bigger and you are pretty much there. Going to be interesting constructing a pro forma and instruction page! Pyrope 23:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible additions to {{tl|F1 driver}} and {{tl|Former F1 driver}} 

message: It's a pet project for me, but I'm looking for articles that have personal information about Yuji Ide - the guy's upbringing, if he's married, etc. I haven't found anything in English, so these articles are probably in Japanese. So, all I need are the links and then I can use Altavista Babelfish to translate and (in theory) use as best-case-scenario references.
Let me know if you can help out by posting here. Guroadrunner 11:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Translation might be of some use.--Diniz (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone speak Japanese ? 

message: My recent edits to 2007 Formula One season were for the Turkey GP not the Hungary GP. I just made a mistake in the edit summaries. Sorry! chem_tom 15:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries but thank you for adding to the article. Most users don't even add an edit summary, when they should. Minor inaccuracies in the edit summary is nothing to worry about. Guroadrunner 05:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I just say that it bugs me also when users don't use the edit summary, even for minor edits. It saves all the checking to see what they've done that way. Lradrama 09:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Of course, the people who would be reading this page are the ones who do the right thing... DH85868993 10:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, too, but sometimes, I just accidentally forget. Davnel03 15:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can change a setting somewhere that prompts you if you don't fill out the edit summary. AlexJ 22:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My recent edits 

message: Some users find it necessary to keep adding 24 and 25 next to prodrive for the 2008 season. This should be left blank until at least the end of the season. Is there anyway we can stop this happening? Eddie6705
:To the best of my knowledge there will definitely not be a car 25 on the grid next season. Whether Prodrive get 24 or not is also not yet decided (as a possible McLaren 'B' team, who's to say they won't end up with Alonso as WDC next season, or will Super Aguri's financial problems (as speculated by ITV's coverage) mean we'll have 22 cars on the grid next season?). Anyway, if it's sustained vandalism by an IP address you can try and make a request for semi-protection at Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection. AlexJ 22:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, if 12 teams do enter then one team (eg. prodrive) will have the numbers 24 and 25 as the number 13 is not used. Eddie6705 22:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Readro 22:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be willing to bet on Prodrive being given #24 and #25 next season, but it's really not pertinent to add it to Wikipedia articles as if it were already confirmed. The only way they'll be given any other numbers is if the WDC drives for them or another team disappears - neither is likely, but possible. Bretonbanquet 22:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, of course forgot about the avoidance of No. 13. Still, there's a possibility it won't be 24&25 so until we get a confirmed reference (i.e. the FIA entry list) it doesn't belong in the article. AlexJ 23:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I strongly recommend against posting any car numbers for the 2008 season, even once this season ends. Imagine if Spyker or Super Aguri shuts down -- that changes everything. Guroadrunner 06:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We can add numbers for the top six or seven teams at the season's end though, those that will definately be there, because Spyker and Super Aguri will surely finish near the back of the standings. Lradrama 14:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Compromise: I'd say that all the teams that finish above Super Aguri or Spyker, if they truly are under threat. I figure if a team drops out before the start of the season, everyone else's numbers move up?? Guroadrunner 06:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, fag packet benefit-loss analysis. Benefit of speculative numbers: nil. Potential for confusion and inaccuracy: high. Result, don't do it. There is no point adding guessed (yes, you are just guessing, no matter how well-informed) numbers to any article. When the entry list is published then add the numbers, not before. And if I see them there I'll delete them, there is far too much speculation in the future season articles as it is without adding this rubbish. Pyrope 09:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well...I think he's made his point. Lradrama 09:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just couldn't believe that this was even being debated! Pyrope 09:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, looking at it, you are quite right. Wikipedia's got enough enreferenced guesswork as it is without those who know what they're doing (most of the time!) doing the exact same. Thanks for your statement! ;-)  Lradrama 09:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formula One 2008 (Prodrive Numbers) 

message: Hi, I strongly recommed this project to give your notabilty guidelines for a new notabilty proposal that I'm creating on my userpage, once it is completed, I will move to wikipedia namespace for the community to decide. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 23:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To me, notability seems pretty simple - if the topic "has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" it is notable. The guidelines will have to say what is almost certainly notable as opposed to what isn't. For example, I don't think we can say all drivers in xxxx series are not-notable because there's occasionally an exception to the rule with someone who at a low level receives a lot of coverage. We could give criteria for topics we definitely know will meet the notability guidelines e.g. every F1 race will have a race report in Autosport, Autocar and Auto Express magazines as well as at GrandPrix.com and other major F1 websites so it will meet the significant coverage in reliable independent sources criteria. Similarly all F1 drivers will have features on these websites and in the specialist magazines so are notable. But to be honest, this has all been pretty much established already. AlexJ 23:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Jaranda/Notabilty (sports)]] 

message: Terrible headline, but Hans Ruesch raced in grand prixs before F1's formation. Should he get the "Former motorsports driver" template on his page? Guroadrunner 09:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone who drove an 8C in anger in period has my respect! I'd say he deserves it. Pyrope 09:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hans Ruesch]] the dead grand prix driver 

message: I'm planning to propose Renault RS27 for deletion. Any objections? DH85868993 15:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: None. Ironic really, considering the remarks about notability above. To be provided with something so obviously crufty so soon! Pyrope 15:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No objection from me. It made me laugh though :) Bretonbanquet 15:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: None. I'd never think we'd ever see an article on an engine! Davnel03 18:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't Porsche 3512 on the To-Do list? The359 18:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is, stumped me a bit when I saw that. But Cosworth DFV has an article, and I think that goes a lot of the way to demonstrating how relative notability works. The DFV is famous as an entity in and of itself. Pyrope 19:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless someone can significantly improve it with their sterling knowledge of that particular engine, then give it the chop, because I've never seen such a feeble excuse for an article! ;-)  ;-)  Lradrama 10:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Renault RS27]] 

message: While in the middle of the Malaysian GP Peer review, AlexJ brought up a point to do with lap leaders, which I have decided to bring here to get a wider opinion on. Here is his point:
*The notes section. I know it's common across race reports to do this, so this comment is not aimed at this article specifically, but I think the article demonstrates particularly well why it's perhaps unneeded. It's pretty much a trivia section by any other name, and duplicates what's already said. Fastest lap is already featured in the infobox. This was the first victory for Fernando Alonso in a McLaren. and This was the McLaren's first 1-2 finsh since the 2005 Brazilian Grand Prix. are already mentioned in both the lead and in image captions in the body. That leaves just the lap leaders which perhaps should be shifted to the infobox (new field would be required). That's probably something that needs to be discussed with a wider audience though.
I think his idea suggested is quite good, but I want to get other opinins. Personally, I don't see any reason why not to have lap leaders mentioned in the infobox. What do you think about this? Davnel03 11:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not too onerous a proposal for modern races, which are usually dull as ditchwater with maybe two or three leaders, but what happens when you have older races where people actually could overtake and there were mybe as many as five leaders each lap! Also, what does it really tell us? Especially in modern races where lap leaders are, more often than not, determined by differences in pit stop strategy, and not by any skill or mechanical advantage. If there are significant leardershipchanges, they should be emphasised in the text. If they are insignificant then they should be left out entirely. Neither suggests, to me, that this is significantly important for inclusion in the infobox. Pyrope 17:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox issue - lap leaders 

message: Do we want the "F1 season cars" templates to appear in the related category, e.g. do we want  listed in :Category:1993 Formula One season cars? If we do want them included in the category, should they appear at the start of the category, or in alphabetical order under "T"? There's currently a variety of implementations. DH85868993 23:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The category description reads: "Formula One cars that competed in the 1993 Formula One season." which to me means it shouldn't include the F1 season cars template. The template doesn't need categorising because the articles it appears in are already categorised. If someone goes to the category they expect to find articles on the cars competing in that year, not templates and other clutter. The categories are primarily to help the reader find things, and they shouldn't have to know of the existence of the template IMO. AlexJ 11:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Alex on that one. Davnel03 11:52, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was my feeling as well. I just wanted to see what others thought. I'll update the templates so that the templates themselves aren't included in the category, but the articles in which they are transcluded are. DH85868993 12:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. DH85868993 14:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  F1 season cars templates 

message: Someone recently made this change to FISA-FOCA war. Does anyone know which version is correct? [Obviously this discussion really belongs on the article's talk page, but I suspect that this particular article probably isn't on many people's watchlist]. DH85868993 02:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The revision is correct. Pyrope 11:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Pyrope. DH85868993 13:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FISA-FOCA war 

message: He's back! 
-- Ian Dalziel 10:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Needs to be reported to ANI. Davnel03 17:48, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reported to ANI. Davnel03 17:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IP blocked for 12 hours and Jim Clark's page semi-protected for a while. Davnel03 20:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:Pflanzgarten|Pflanzgarten]] 

message: What do people think about the recent addition of the "Renault S.A. template" () to Renault R27, in addition to the existing "Renault F1 template" ()? Do we want to add it to all the other Renault F1 car articles as well? DH85868993 08:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added it as I happened to have seen it lately, I'm not really fussed either way. Pyrope 08:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not too fussed either way, but the only relevant bit in Renault S.A. IMO (the F1 models) is already in the Renault F1 template. AlexJ 14:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renault template 

message: (Edited) I've found a collection of useful news reports from the 1990s  that I wanted to share. It appears to be part of an archive. Covering many series but especially F1, it includes statistical goodness for race reports, and fresh news reports from the races.
The main link is http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/ and the news stories archive is at http://www.teamdan.com/archive/almanac.html
I've added material to Argentine Grand Prix, 1994 Formula One season and 1994 European Grand Prix - there was apparently an aborted 1994 Argentine Grand Prix, causing the race to move to Jerez under the Euro GP banner.
I also saw information about how the 1994 Italian GP at Monza was canceled in light of the Imola tragedies and then un-canceled after agreements to remove trees lining the track, not yet covered at 1994 Italian Grand Prix. 
For more info, see my post on WP:MOTOR -- Guroadrunner 18:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's part of The GEL Motorsport Information Page's Motorsport Almanac. Readro 20:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have added that Damon Hill was announced official test driver for Williams in 1991, not just 1992, with source. This is an unintegrated section stub. -- Guroadrunner 23:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noteworthy collection of 1990s racing news stories 

message: This is by no mean a forum, but this is breaking news. Watch out for obvious vandals targeting Ferrari related articles, thanks. Davnel03 16:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No official confirmation has yet been issued. Hold on. The idea was mooted about an hour ago but this is not in any way confirmed. Read the weasel words in the Sky article. Pyrope 16:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Was it? I'm stuck to Sky Sports News at the moment, but they've had zero coverage on it. And Autosport website (for me) has gone down, every other websites working, but Autosport is not. :( Davnel03 16:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Try 5live, they have a guy standing outside. Nothing official as yet, and the "full exclusion" was only one option that was in discussion over an hour ago. The Sky story is just that, fiction. Pyrope 16:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Autosport have issued a retractment of the initial article which sparked the fuss, stating that no verdict has been decided on yet. Readro 16:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd be very cautious about that, as it's not been announced anywhere else. Readro 17:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd trust this more than I would some second-hand acount on Sky's site. Pyrope 17:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that appeared after I posted my last comment! Readro 17:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Sky News, ITV News and Sky Sports News reporting it now. Davnel03 17:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 2007 WCC only as far as I have heard - I've edited this section title as a result. Mark83 17:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The initial report was that they were excluded from the WCC., i.e. they aren't in it at all. Lazy journos have mutated this into the funkier-sounding "stripped of all their points", but that is just news jargon. Pyrope 17:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When Schumacher was stripped of his championship, was he excluded or did they remove all of his points?  Point is, for Wiki's purposes, we kept him on the chart. The359 18:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea, I'd have to look it up. But in this case McLaren are certainly excluded so either they go right at the bottom with the appropriate note or, and this is the option which I prefer, they don't appear at all. Pyrope 18:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine removing them altogether will just lead to more hassle.  For now I've removed their rank ("11th") from the chart and merely put a dash, as we do for driver's who have yet to finish Grands Prix. The359 18:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: We need to adjust all articles as necessary. There's a press conference in half-hour. Keep and eye for vandalism on all Ferrari related articles. Davnel03 17:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The359 & Pyrope: My understanding is that when MS was disqualified in 1997, the points he earned during races still counted towards his career total as did his race wins etc. and he was also allowed to keep the trophies. Therefore having him appear on the second line in our championship table with position listed as DSQ is correct IMO. If McLaren have the same punishment then I say we should do the same, however if in addition to their disqualification, they have to forfeit all the points and return constructors trophies then they should go at the bottom. I am not in favour of deleting them all together from the list and pretending they never took part in the constructors championship. AlexJ 18:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I've read, McLaren will be allowed to keep all of their TV revenue earned for the season.  I believe this is a good sign that they will keep the trophies and such as well. The359 18:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Selected quotes from the FIA Statement: "“The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructor points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championship and the team can score no points for the remainder of the season," "Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to $100m, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction." “However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team’s drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regard to drivers’ points." “The WMSC will receive a full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season,”  AlexJ 18:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FOM income = TV revenue? The359 18:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, effectively. That, to me, says bottom of the table at the very least. Pyrope 18:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep or lose points was my criteria on where to place them, they've lost them so I agree with placing them bottom of the table (with 0 points). I don't really care where they go in relation to Spyker and STR - is the criteria teams are decided by wins if the points are tied? Or does EX trump 0 points to put McLaren last? I don't know but suggest we go along with the FIA when they update their standings. AlexJ 18:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, for the time being though, I think they should be last until we get official confirmation on their position. Davnel03 18:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I would guess so. Also, I'm guessing they should go straight to the bottom of the table as they score 0. Finally, can BMW still win the constructors title (mathmatically?) Davnel03 18:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ferrari is 5 points away from securing the constructor's championship. The359 18:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 5 points? Wooooo....! :) Davnel03 18:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I say do whatever we did when Schumacher got excluded in . Guroadrunner 20:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is different to the Schumacher case however, as Schumi kept his points and therefore held 'virtual 2nd place' in the table while McLaren have been stripped of theirs and therefore have 0 points putting them near the bottom of the table. Formula1.com have now updated and show McLaren in position "9=" and lists them below Spyker & STR. FIA have yet to update their website. AlexJ 22:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure it is different - MS was excluded from the 97 championship altogether so holds no position in it at all. He does however maintain his wins and points, for the purposes of his overall scores. I guess we don't yet know whether that will be the case for McLaren - I haven't heard that the points or wins are being reallocated (so different to the various incidents in 76, for example). Welcome to the parallel universe of the FIA. 4u1e 09:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see how McLaren can be 9th=, that makes no sense. Firstly, the standings don't allow for equal positions, one team is above the other based on the results achieved. Hence, Toro Rosso are above Spyker. Either McLaren are 9th ahead of the other teams with no points because their results are better, or, as I understand it, McLaren are fully excluded, i.e they are 11th and will stay 11th, having taken part and been excluded.Bretonbanquet 22:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The FIA is supposed to release a full report on the whole thing tomorrow.  I would suggest, for now at least, to simple move McLaren to last and marked as "Excluded".  It's far better then keeping them in first, I think. The359 22:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that is one of the silliest tables I've ever seen. I am mistaken for McLaren aren't actually shown last, confusingly they only show a table of 10 teams on the main page! The full table containing the 11 teams (because fitting one extra line on the main page would have been too much clutter) shows McLaren as "9=" but with STR-Ferrari above them and Spyker-Ferrari below them. No logic at all can have gone into that positioning (unless they wanted to show McLaren on the front page, so had to put them 10th due to their silly design), so I guess we'll have to wait until the FIA clear things up tomorrow. AlexJ 22:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Formula1.com is not a reliable source for points classifications.  They always mess up the listing of teams/drivers with  equal points, and now this.  The classification at fia.com (when updated) will be a much better source. Majin Izlude talk 23:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, is the note about the no scoring of points in Hungary (on constructors' tables) still required? chem_tom 14:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Report has been published: http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf    chem_tom 15:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Just to let you guys know it's now on the "In The News" section on the front page. Davnel03 15:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it was breaking news all over the world, so it was only a matter of time. Increased vandalism imminent. Lradrama 18:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  McLaren excluded from '07 Championship 

message: At present, the tables in both 2007 Formula One season and McLaren show McLaren's position as "EX" with a black background, which is not in line with the legend template (EX is used with a "blank" background).  In the talk page for the 2007 article, User:Daniel77o suggests that we change the legend to have EX on a black background.  However, that is not feasible, as we would have to change every other EX result in all the result tables in which it appears (since the legend is a template).
Instead, I suggest that we change the "EX" in those McLaren results to "DSQ", as it would be consistent with our usage in other results.  In the past, we have used "DSQ" when participants are excluded from a GP (or season) after it has begun (see 2007 Canadian Grand Prix, 2005 Canadian Grand Prix, or Michael Schumacher in 1997), while "EX" jas been used only as a reason for a driver's/team's non-participation in an event (see Honda's two-race ban in 2005), which is why it's in a blank background just like any other missed race. 
Note that our use of the term "disqualification" (and that of the media) differs from the FIA's; a true FIA disqualification is a ban from all FIA-sanctioned competitions, and it would not normally apply to a penalty in F1.  I believe that in all the examples cited above, the official term used by the FIA (or race stewards) was "exclusion". Majin Izlude talk 16:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Effect on constuctors results tables in [[2007 Formula One season]] and [[McLaren]] articles

message: This was on the article requests in the to-do box, and has just been created. Given the fact that a Renault engine (can't remember the exact name now) was prodded and deleted, my question is that is the Porsche 3512 page really needed. In my view, it is not needed. Davnel03 20:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would probably be better off as a section in the Footwork FA12 article (should such an article ever be written). AlexJ 22:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've just created Footwork FA12 (a bit stubby, but meh), and have suggested a merge between the two articles. The discussion for merging is here. Davnel03 09:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Porsche 3512‎]] 

message: Discussion here. Davnel03 09:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Formula One]] up for FAR 

message: Tonight I was creating the 1000 km Buenos Aires sports car race, which (mostly) ran at the Autódromo Oscar Alfredo Gálvez, the same circuit used for the Argentine Grand Prix.  It struck me as odd that this circuit, as well as a great number of other circuits on Wikipedia, seem to only mention the F1 races which have run there.  That obviously is a problem of editors from other motorsports disciplines not adding the appropriate information.  
However, a second problem that I see is the fact that racing circuits list the winners of the F1 events.  For a large number of events, this list is pretty much identical to the list that would appear on the event page itself (Argentine Grand Prix).  So it begs the question, why are F1 winners listed on circuit pages?  Certainly a circuit can have events just as important as their Grands Prix.  Although I'm not advocating adding winners for every event ever taking place at a course, I do feel that race winners belong on an event's page (such as my 1000 km Buenos Aires) and not on the circuit's page.
Basically, I think we should remove Grand Prix winners from Circuit pages because I feel it is redundant. The359 01:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. List race winners on the event pages, not the circuit pages. DH85868993 02:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support that. Pyrope 08:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Absolutely, the circuit article should be far more general in saying what races were held there and the winners should only be on the race event page. AlexJ 09:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GP winners listed on Circuit pages 

message: I am jus wondering if McLaren should be listed as the winning constructor of any of the races in the 2007 season. Since the team has been excluded, can they technically win? Of course if a McLaren driver wins a race, the winning car is a McLaren, though that would be car and not constructor. Also because they are not permitted to accept a constrcutor trophy on the podium, they certainly would not seem able to win. I do not know, maybe I am jsut reading into things too much. Technically though because they have been excluded, they were not and will not be the winning constructor in any race in the 2007 season. I would propose we change the winning constructor in the past races to the team which finished next in line, that is Ferrari or BMW. Dale-DCX 17:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so - the other teams' points have not been upgraded, McLaren's have simply been blanked. -- Ian Dalziel 18:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, the other teams have not gained points. I would certainly not refute that. Though, if McLaren was excluded from a race (which they were) they can not win the Constructors' trophy can they? So I do not think it right to show they were the winning constructor when they were excluded from the results. Dale-DCX 18:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They've been excluded from the Constructors' Championship, not excluded from the races. You can't exclude a car from the race without excluding the driver, otherwise you have a winning driver having driven, well, nothing. I think their race results stand as normal, it's just that their points were taken away. Bretonbanquet 18:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you have to look at this from the perspective of someone new to F1 in a couple of years time reading the articles.  If no constructor is shown when Alonso or Hamilton won it will confuse readers who didn't know that they were McLaren's drivers this season.  I think McLaren have to stay in the results for that reason alone.  Kelpin 18:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the judgement was that McLaren had been excluded from the races - their points were cancelled, which isn't the same. They score no points from the rest of the season either - but they are going to be racing, which they wouldn't be if they were excluded. -- Ian Dalziel 19:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, nothing I've read so far says the McLaren have had to hand back their constructors trophies or their Wins/Podiums stats will be affected - my understanding is that if a McLaren car wins, McLaren are the winning constructors and are awarded winning constructors points, the points are then instantly forfeited. They are also prohibited from getting the trophy but they are still technically winning constructor. Again, we should see how other sources handle it and follow them. AlexJ 21:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  McLaren as the Winning Constructor? 

message: Discussion here. Davnel03 17:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[2005 United States Grand Prix]] up for FAR 

message: As part of my efforts to improve the Forti article, I recently came across these two Flickr images of the team's drivers racing at the 1995 British Grand Prix.  The images are copyrighted, but it may be possible to persuade the author to change the licences.  Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?
P.S. The Flickr user has a large number of photos from the 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993 and 1995 British/European Grands Prix, for those who aren't interested in Forti! ;)--Diniz (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had some, but not much, luck with this. The pic at the bottom of Brabham BT19 came from a polite request from me to it's owner on Flickr. On the other hand, several other requests have not been responded to - I think it helps if you compliment the picture or pictures and if you don't come across as someone just there to 'steal' their pictures! Then again, I suspect many Flickr accounts (like many Wikipedia ones) just aren't that active, so your request may never be read. You need to be quite clear about what you need, which is presumably for them to re-license the pictures to one you can use on Wikipedia. I think cc-by sa 3.0 is appropriate (Alex, could you comment?) 4u1e 13:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the reply!  Alex has already posted on my user talk page and I have sent the author a message on Flickr.  I did describe their F1 photo sets as "excellent" and pointed out that one of the images could eventually appear on the main page, as well as saying that Wikipedia and the Commons depend on the kind actions of amateur photographers (I hope I didn't lay it on too thick!).  I specified CC-BY and CC-BY-SA as the only Flickr licences allowed, so that shouldn't be a problem.--Diniz (talk) 14:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a small technicality - on Flickr the CC licences are v2.0 (e.g. cc-by-sa 2.0) not 3.0 - doesn't make any difference really afaik and both are accepted on Wikipedia but just to let you know if you get a successful response when it comes to uploading it. AlexJ 16:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Well done! 4u1e 14:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brilliant, the article looks much better with the pictures. The only thing now is that the fair use picture might be challenged as you've shown free use pictures of F1 cars can be found. I'll keep an eye out for a potential free use image of the other car. AlexJ 18:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image negotiation 

message: I came across this article while looking over 2007 car articles (most notably the customer car constroversy).  I have a feeling it's not really a necessary article since the only thing Red Bull Technology has done is acted as a front to design the RB3 and STR2.  I'd suggest deletion. The359 09:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a notable company in its own right. The article contents aren't perfect by any means but I'm not sure there's grounds for deletion. Readro 10:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Typing in "Red Bull Technology" on Google gets you over 2 million hits. I think the article just needs to be cleaned up and expanded a bit, then it'll be OK. Davnel03 15:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, the phrase "Red Bull Technology" only returns 4040 results. Your search is for pages containing the words Bull and Red and Technology. (For example "Red Bull Air Race: Technology & more" was the first result) AlexJ 15:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. Maybe we should AFD it as 359 suggested. Davnel03 17:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It can still be a notable topic if those 4040 results contain multiple reliable sources that can be used to write an article on the topic (WP:GOOGLEHITS). I'm still not sure, I did find several good websites with an article primarily about RBT so I think if someone adds a few references and possibly expand it a bit, then I'd want it to stay. AlexJ 11:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Red Bull Technology]] 

message: I notice that "Standings after Grand Prix" sections have recently been added to several of the 2003 F1 race reports, e.g. 2003 Monaco Grand Prix. We discussed this back in July and consensus at that time seemed to be to delete these sections. Is that still the prevailing view? DH85868993 03:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No need for them. Delete. Davnel03 15:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, not needed. If we want this, they can be sort of incorporated into the report (word form obviously). Lradrama 18:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standings after Grand Prix revisited 

message: Brabham BT19 is up at FAC at present. My thanks to all those who contributed massively, including (deep breath) AlexJ, Davnel03, DH85868993, Diniz, GURoadrunner, James086, Mark83, Pyrope, Readro and The359. And, of course, my agent. Please comment at the FAC, whether you feel it is good, bad or indifferent. Cheers. 4u1e 20:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As much as I enjoy getting praise, I don't actually remember contributing anything! Are you sure? I might well have done something and then forgotten about it. Readro 22:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I definitely saw your tag in the edit history - I think it was corrections on the results tables, from memory. If not, well take it as general thanks for work around the project. And if you think you didn't contribute, I have to say my agent really isn't earning his fee! ;-) 4u1e 07:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brabham BT19 

message: There is currently a proposal here to merge Trojan (Racing team) with Trojan (automobile). As far as I know, the racing team evolved from within the automobile company after they had given up road car manufacture but was a quite distinct enterprise and Ron Tauranac was involved somewhere, somehow. The Trojan (Racing team) page is very weak at the moment but if anyone out there has any citable material to beef it up a bit so that its worthy of its own page or can vote for or against the merger, now would be a good time to do it. Mighty Antar 10:13, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The line is a bit blurred, as Trojan (Racing) Ltd. got into building racing cars by constructing customer McLaren cars from 1971. This was under the management of Ron Smith (incidentally, the inventor of the Burt strut, godfather of the whoosh-bonk McLaren M3A, and former manager to Stirling Moss), who had been a mate of Bruce's since the very beginnings of McLaren cars. Quite how the road car and racing car arms of Trojan are linked I'm not sure, but it is clear that the two were concurrent and distinct for at least a few years. I think that there may well eventually be enough material to retain Trojan (Racing) Ltd. as a separate entity, with a  link from the Trojan (automobile) page. Demerging is always a more complicated process, so let's not be too hasty. Pyrope 10:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trojan (Racing team) 

message: It's on the front page, yay! I've got to go to bed now though... please keep an eye on it if you can. Thanks! Pyrope 01:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Aston Martin DBR4|DBR4]] = DYK 

message: At this link here, I've built what more or less is a results table to be plugged in to Hill (constructor), but it's not done yet.
I'm looking for a good source for which tires they used, what points classification they had and other elements. The table also needs to get "combined" -- right now each season has its own table. 
I see it as a community sandbox of some sort -- feel free to edit or add to the table.
If anyone has objection to adding a results table to the Hill team page (Hill was a privateer), discuss below.
Thanks, -- Guroadrunner
:Try ChicaneF1.com or GEL. Plenty of data in those two sites. Pyrope 07:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hill team results table; need help 

message: I also noticed that many driver results are given as INJ, when they did not take part in a Grand Prix due to an injury beforehand. I do not believe this is the appropriate result and if anything is misleading. They did not take part in the Grand Prix and the space should be left blank as they are meant to be. Having the result as INJ would suggest the driver competed in that event and then was subsequently injured. A driver not taking part in a race because they are injured is the same as a driver not taking part due to family obligations. They were not in the race and they had no result, this should be reflected in the relevant articles. Dale-DCX 01:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree with it not being 'ING', but I don't think it should be left completely blank. I was just looking the ITV Sport Guide - Grand Prix 2002 book. Giancarlo Fisichella was injured before the 2002 French Grand Prix and it refers to his non-participation as 'W' (i.e. withdrawn). Then, before the start of the 2002 Japanese Grand Prix, Allan McNish suffered as large crash and was unable to take part, and his non-participation is referred to as 'NS' (i.e. non-starter). So, would any of those be appropriate (assuming we could have 'DNS' as well as 'NS')? Lradrama 11:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it depends on the circumstances. If the driver competed in the practice and qualifying sessions, only to not take the start they should be listed as DNS. If a driver did not take part in any aspect of the weekend they should not be listed as being involved at all which means a blank space. At least I think that makes the most sense. Dale-DCX 17:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed. Though in that case, he could be listed as DNQ as well. Though that really only applies to a race where drivers needed to qualify to compete in the event. It would also implied he failed to qualify. I think in his case withdrawn would be correct. I would suggest we need to look at all of the drivers who have ILL or INJ listed as a result and give them a proper result based on the extent which they competed in during the weekend. Dale-DCX 17:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I've never been keen on the "INJ" in results boxes, and I've brought this up before. It's not a result. I always change INJ to DNS or DNQ where I spot it and it's relevant. However, in Fisi's case, it's most definitely a DNS - there's no reason to invent a WD designation when DNS means exactly the same thing. Bretonbanquet 18:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done. I completely agree. DNQ is not invented, it is a real classification. I understand what you mean though. Dale-DCX 18:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheers. I didn't say DNQ was invented though. Bretonbanquet 19:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, that is what I thought you had implied. Dale-DCX 21:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, let's just keep it simple! Bretonbanquet's ideas are fine - just keep the DNS for an injury involved in the weekend and blank for total non-participation. DNQ for practice but non-qualifier? I think that's what you're all saying? Alright let's keep it at those three. Perhaps on using those, one can elaborate on why that driver didn't participate in the 'Time/retired' column of the results table. Lradrama 08:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No! "DNQ" can only be assigned to a driver who tries to qualify and fails. A driver not taking part in qualifying should be listed as "withdrawn" or a blank space. 82.92.73.193 02:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. Makes sense. Lradrama 15:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, actually. It depends on what the sources say. If the sources say DNQ, then that's what we put, regardless of what we may think the result should be listed as. We can always put explanatory notes in to explain anomalies. Bretonbanquet 16:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Injuries 

message: Some people add a div-tag to the results tables in the articles on Formula One teams and drivers, making a scroll list at the bottom of the table. Please don't do that, it just makes the table harder to read when you are reading at the top of it. I have just removed a bunch of these. John Anderson 15:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  <nowiki><div></nowiki> tag 

message: I was just editing the 2004 Australian Grand Prix article, and on clicking 'Edit this page' I noticed this - __FORCETOC__ - above the race classification. What does it mean? Lradrama 09:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Force Table of Contents".  Table of Contents boxes usually do not show up until you have at least 3 (I think...) sections to an article.  Adding that text forces a table of contents box to show up regardless of the number of sections. The359 09:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh I see! OK, thankyou very much! Lradrama 09:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  __FORCETOC__ - Race articles 

message: For those that don't participate over at WP:MOTOR, we're planning on creating a universal infobox template for racetracks to replace the current F1_circuit, National_Circuit and Infobox_Nascar_Circuit infoboxes. The design allows for all the fields from the current F1 and National circuit templates as well as the majority of Nascar fields. Can you take a look at these examples of it's use and let me know your thoughts on it? Thanks, AlexJ 17:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great work!  Some of those examples were quite inventive, as well. ;)  The only additional thing I can think of is the option of having a caption for the circuit image, for example if only one of the layouts is shown (as is the case with Silverstone Circuit, where the image only shows the Grand Prix Circuit).--Diniz (talk) 17:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you've done a very good job! It'll make things simpler and easier, and that's what we're always on the lookout for. Diniz has a good point above though. Lradrama 18:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks guys. I've now added the ability to include a caption, as demonstrated on the sandbox and on Silverstone Circuit. AlexJ 22:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to update people, all uses of F1_circuit have now been replaced by Motorsport_venue. Currently all infoboxes look identical to before the change although they can now be updated to include any of the new parameters (image caption, date opened, owner, multiple track layouts etc.) Are there any objections to the :Template:F1_circuit being nominated for deletion as redundant? AlexJ 13:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No objections have been raised in a week so it's now up for deletion. AlexJ 18:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Circuit Infoboxes

message: What do people think of the idea of adding Vettel and Albers back into Template:Formula One teams (probably on a separate line at the bottom), on the basis that they have participated in the 2007 season?  DH85868993 13:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea to me.--Diniz (talk) 16:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I'd agree with this, seems as the title of the template is "Constructors and drivers competing in the 2007 Formula One championship" - both fit within this description. Might be a challenge to make it look tidy though. AlexJ 18:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added Albers and Vettel back into the template, and added the template back into their articles. DH85868993 14:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-current drivers 

message: I have just reverted the addition of 1990-1999 results on McLaren
#Because even 1999 is on the borderline of "recent" and 1990 certainly isn't!
#It pushed the article up to 91k - and it was already very large.
Anybody disagree/agree? Mark83 15:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is 1999 the first year? 9 years seems a somewhat arbitrary number to pick. It should be a number like 5 or 10. Readro 16:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please readd them. There is absolutely no meaning with not having them there. The only reason it says "recent" results, is because noone have had time to add all the previous years yet. If the article is to big, split it up in subarticles instead of just erasing useful information! John Anderson 16:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The results table should be split out into a separate article, as was done for WilliamsF1 Grand Prix results (and has been discussed above for Ferrari). I would recommend calling the new article McLaren Grand Prix results. Note the deliberate use of an "inclusive" name, so the article can include non-works entries and non-championship races if desired. DH85868993 16:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree on using a similar solution to that used for Williams. Suggest last 5 seasons on main article page and full (including the last five years) on a separate page. The name DH suggests was discussed previously to be able to include NC races etc. so it has my backing. AlexJ 18:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all the comments. Reduced to five seasons' results with main link to McLaren Grand Prix results as suggested. Thanks again. Mark83 18:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll get to work tomorrow on the "backlog" of results for the McLaren results article ;-). Oh, btw should we have a MoS for these, I mean should we use the flagicons like in the "Williams version" or the none flagicon "McLaren version"? --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 21:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a little wary of having the last 5 years' results listed in two different articles - I think there's a risk of them getting out of synch (and it does feel somewhat "wrong" to have exactly the same info in two different places). If we definitely want to display the information in both places, perhaps we could put the last 5 years' results into a template? Note that we'd only need to do this for current teams which have a very long history, i.e. Williams, Ferrari and McLaren. In terms of an MoS, we do have the standard constructor results table format, although I recognise that some of the existing tables don't comply. DH85868993 03:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

text: That's a nice idea. I am not sure wether it is better to split out the results table or some of the texts, but I suppose either is OK. Flags are always nice, but no necessity in this kind of table. Just don't add a  string. John Anderson 21:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On that topic, I'm assuming that the scrollbars were originally added because you can't see the whole table with a 1024x768 screen resolution. So maybe we need to take that into consideration. DH85868993 03:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That topic can be discussed under its own headline a bit up on this page; so far, noone have advocated to keep the added scroll bars. All in all, on a small screen you can always scroll the browser window itself just as you can on a big screen, but if you have this scroll bar you cannot scroll the table to the side if you are looking at the top of the page. I have a small screen at home which makes me resent these div tag scroll bars. John Anderson 10:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why can't we have a full results table with scroll bars? Better encyclopedia that way. Lradrama 14:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not the scroll bars which makes a great encyclopedia, it's the information provided. Without the div tag generated bottom scroll bar, it is easier to access all the information, especially if you have a small screen. John Anderson 20:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes, I'm not saying that! I just meant it'd be better if he had a full results table, showing their finishes for every one of the seasons they've competed in from the 1960s rather than just recent results. No, I was just suggesting scroll-bars becuase the table would be pretty huge. I hate the scroll bars really because of the mucking about when looking at a table, but we might have to improvise for a full-results table for a team like McLaren. Lradrama 20:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Internet browsers acctually generate scroll bars by them selves. What I am trying to say is, we don't have to make additional ones. – Of course we should have full results tables, preferably for all teams. John Anderson 02:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Recent results" on team pages. 

message: The German Grand Prix was originally sheduled for 2007, but was later cancelled, so I think it should be labeled as such in the list. However, some anonymous people keep changing it back to not held. As long as they don't explain why, I will undo these changes. Please discuss on the talk page of that artice. John Anderson 11:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought that the German Grand Prix is now alternating between Hockenheim and the Nurburgring? I thought it was still called the German Grand Prix? That means it is still held. However, some media sources (in the run up to this event) are calling it the European Grand Prix, because that's where it was held in recent times. I'm really confused now. Lradrama 14:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a dispute over who owned the rights to the name "German Grand Prix", so this weekend's race at the Nurburgring is called the "European Grand Prix". See this discussion. DH85868993 15:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks for the confirmation! I've just been on F1.com and ITV.com/f1, and they all refer to it as the European Grand Prix. B.T.W. I prefered it the other way, but since when do things go as you want in F1? (As a Toyota supporter, I'm used to it... ;-) ). Lradrama 16:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe they will change the name of the Grand Prix back to the German Grand Prix eventually as that would obviously be preferable for marketing reasons. Though as mentioned above, I think there is some sort of legal issue. So for now we have the European Grand Prix. Dale-DCX 16:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another option I've heard (can't remember where exactly) is that the race on the Nürburgring returns to the use of "Grand Prix of Luxembourg." The Grand Prix of Europe will be held in Valencia from 2008 or 2009 onwards, and Hockenheim indeed seems to hold the rights to the name German Grand Prix. But that's crystalballing, since the next Grand Prix on the Nürburgring will be held in 2009. AecisBrievenbus 17:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Luxembourg name will make it all the more muddling to new viewers. Remember, the Luxembourg name was only used in 1997 (and 1998 I think) because there was already a German and a European Grand Prix (Hockenheim and Jerez respectively). Lradrama 20:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bernie has stated the dispute arose from the AvD believing they hold the rights to the name German Grand Prix. They refused to allow this race to be termed as such. However, Bernie did state the event will return to being called the German Grand Prix soon. Dale-DCX 00:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  German GP 2007: ''cancelled'' or ''not held''? 

message: While I'm waiting for one of my articles to get through the Good Article review process, I'm working my way through the driver articles that are unassessed by the project.  I did 'A' yesterday, so today will be 'B'. Lec CRP1 09:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. The pile of unassessed articles is huge. Thanks Guroadrunner 15:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reached up to the end of 'M' now.  Example - Stirling Moss hadn't even been assessed, but David Murray had been.  Strange.  Someone else will have to assess John Miles, as I wrote most of it.--Lec CRP1 19:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just polished off the last one (Ricardo Zuniño).  The only ones I haven't done are John Miles (see above), David Walker (wrote that one too), and all those Indy 500 drivers who's races in 1950-60 counted towards the world championship even though they probably neither knew nor cared (outside my knowledge)--Lec CRP1 19:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Driver article assessment drive

message: On the IMS page, we have reference of the fastest lap ever turned on the oval course, set by Arie Luyendyk in a practice session in 1996. I was wondering if there was any source to look up the fastest practice lap times for F1, specifically date as well as time for Trulli's lap, so as to have the fastest lap ever turned on the road course at Indianapolis. Thank you in advance. --Chr.K. 10:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally on a road circuit (in F1 and most forms of European racing at least) the lap record is set under race conditions as opposed to practice/qualifying conditions. AlexJ 10:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Practice lap times? 

message: Should Archie Scott(-)Brown's name have a hyphen or not? Currently the article is named Archie Scott-Brown (i.e. with a hyphen) but within the article, his name is consistently written without a hyphen, and indeed the article contains an (unreferenced) statement that there should not be one. A discussion at AtlasF1's Nostalgia Forum claims there's no hyphen on his birth certificate and that Scott is in fact a third given name, but do we need better evidence than that? -- DH85868993 05:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The book about him uses no hyphen. Here's an image of the front cover - . Readro 10:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, I agree that it should be without the hyphen. Perhaps we should request a page move so we can get opinions from those outside the "Motorsport editor's circle"? --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 12:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, I've already renamed (moved) the article and updated the links. Oh well, at least it's now consistent everywhere. DH85868993 02:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archie Scott(-)Brown 

message: This has come up before and I figure it might help if there was a more clear-cut definition of what makes for a test driver for the teams.
Should drivers who participated in a testing session for the team be considered test drivers?  I point to the example of Sebastien Bourdais, who has obviously tested out Toro Rosso's car on a few occassions.  However, as far as I know, Bourdais is not actually employed by Toro Rosso as a test driver, he is merely participating by invitation.
So should he be listed as a test driver if he's not actually one of the team's test drivers? The359 18:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: This applies to some other test drivers as well. The359 18:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In one word: No! There is certainly no way that Bourdais should be considered a test driver, but you could say in his bio that he had tests with STR during '07. I think that there should be a very basic line drawn for this: As long as there is a reference, from a reliable source, that says that "x is a test driver at y". --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 21:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Murray Walker drove a McLaren once in the early 80s but I'm sure he'll agree he's no test driver! Readro 21:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Many, many people test drive cars, not just racing professionals, but also celebrities and TV Presenters (e.g. Martin Brundle and Mark Blundell.) The only drivers who should be named test drivers are the ones who are kept on as permanent by the team. For example, Marco Andretti has done some tests for Honda, but Christian Klien, who has been the regular tester throughout the year so far was the one announced by the team as being THE test driver. Do you know what I'm getting at? Sounds confusing doesn't it, but do you get the picture? ;-) Lradrama 21:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that was my same type of thinking, Lradrama.  Basically, if you're on the team payroll as a test driver, you should be listed.  Just driving the car is not criteria.  I believe this also means that Sébastien Buemi, who is replacing the injured Michael Ammermüller in GP2, is testing for Red Bull this week but is not actually a test driver and should be removed from the 2007 Formula One season. The359 21:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, because he has not played a key role in the team's test / development programme this season and has only been drafted in as a replacement. Thus, he shouldn't be listed as Red Bull's test driver. Lradrama 17:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with the views expressed above. Bourdais is not a test driver, but he has tested with a view to a seat next year. Buemi however, may well be replacing Ammermuller as Red Bull's test and reserve driver at GPs... he has done enough mileage for a superlicence. If he applies for one, it can only be to serve as first reserve for Red Bull. It's a "wait and see" thing though :) Bretonbanquet 20:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Test drivers 

message: Several mistakes here. Just looking through reveals that often two drivers are holding the same spot. I suppose you haven't enough interested editors for these unglamourous sections. There are also anomalies between driver results and results in the season article pages. 194.150.177.9 13:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mmmm, that is a lot to look through to try and spot mistakes! Can you provide any examples from what you've seen? Lradrama 13:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If your referring to this table, then I think we should simply get rid of it. Like I said on the talk page, I don't think it brings any significance to the article and the only thing people care about qualifying is the guy who's on pole, which has been established twice in the article: On the calender table and on the Drivers' Championship tables. --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 13:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, should we not have a table or a list that says who qualified on pole for what event? Lradrama 14:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you mean a table just for who was pole when then no. I believe This table does that job perfectly IMO. If that's not what you meant, sorry - I'm not really in a my usual "Phill mood" - whatever that is... --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 14:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On seeing the table you have just shown me, I am wondering why the other table is in existence? The one you indicated does the job perfectly. Lradrama 14:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, you actually agreed with me? Sorry, that hasn't happened in a while :-P. Anyway, I believe it doesn't serve much purpose and I do apologies to 4u1e for copying what he would say, but in 10 years time will anyone care where Nico Rosberg started on the grid for the 2007 British Grand Prix? (No offense to Nico of course!) Or to put it in a context for the present day, does anyone care where Eddie Irvine started the 1997 Spanish Grand Prix? (Once again, no offense to Eddie!) Anyway, let's wait and see what others have to think about this - We can't just go and delete a whole table off the 2007 season article without proper consensus from the rest of the community can we? ;-) --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 14:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the qualifying results belong in the race reports as opposed to the overall season article (perhaps with the exception of the Pole Position for each round. AlexJ 22:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The qualifying results table in the main season article doesn't really add anything to the article, I say get rid of it. Davnel03 08:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with qualifying section in 2007 season article 

message: User:SandyGeorgia has brought up the fact that, per MoS on Headings, section names must not repeat, which in the Malaysian article, and I believe in most of the F1 article that have race reports have sections repeating. I tend to use:
*Report 
**Pre-race 
**Qualifying 
**Race 
*Classification 
**Qualifying 
**Race 
*Notes 
*References 
*External links
I've brought up the point that 1994 San Marino Grand Prix passed FA status despite sections repeating. Nethertheless, if she decides not to support the article, it could well be heading for a FA-fail. Is there any alternatives we could use? I'm struggling to think of ay at the moment.... (on a side note I've nominated 2007 French Grand Prix for FA status) Davnel03 18:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason for this is incase of 2007_Malaysian_Grand_Prix#Race style links. The Mediawiki engine can now handle sections with the same title providing that the capitalisation for both is exactly the same, in this case, the Table of Contents links correctly manages to link to 2007_Malaysian_Grand_Prix#Race for the first one and 2007_Malaysian_Grand_Prix#Race2 for the second. However manually linking to 2007_Malaysian_Grand_Prix#Race will always go to the first reference section, which is why the MOS advises against it. Possible solution would be to swap Classification for Results and then change subheadings Qualifying > Qualifying Classification and Race > Race Classification. The terms Qualifying Classification and Race Classification are used by the FIA. AlexJ 19:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Issues with section headings brought up on [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2007 Malaysian Grand Prix]]

message: We currently have two schemes for categorising F1 race reports. The Argentine, Australian, Austrian, Bahrain and Belgian F1 race reports are included in categories called "<country> Grand Prix race reports", which are subcategories of :Category:Formula One race reports, e.g.
::Category:Formula One race reports
:::Category:Australian Grand Prix race reports
:::1985 Australian Grand Prix
The race reports for all the other countries are included in categories called "<country> Grand Prix", which are subcategories of :Category:Formula One race reports, e.g.
::Category:Formula One race reports
:::Category:British Grand Prix
:::1985 British Grand Prix
Obviously, we should standardise on one scheme or the other. One point to note is that using either scheme, we will have subcategories of :Category:Formula One race reports containing articles which are not Formula One race reports, e.g. :Category:British Grand Prix contains Silverstone Circuit (which is not a Formula One race report) and :Category:Belgian Grand Prix race reports contains 1931 Belgian Grand Prix (which is not a Formula One race report). Maybe we care about that; maybe not. If we do care, I think the only practical way to ensure that :Category:Formula One race reports (and its descendents) contains only Formula One race reports would be to remove all the "xxx Grand Prix" and "xxx Grand Prix race reports" categories from :Category:Formula One race reports and put all the F1 race reports directly into :Category:Formula One race reports. (Another option would be to have separate subcats for F1 race reports and non-F1 race reports for each country, but that feels like overcategorisation).
Thoughts? (Apologies if I haven't explained this very clearly) DH85868993 12:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We shouldn't have just one big category - that would be too difficult to navigate. The pre-F1 Grand Prix reports should stay because, in the example you use, the category is "Belgian Grand Prix race reports", of which the 1931 race is. Don't forget that categories can be subcategories of more than one category, for instance, "Belgian Grand Prix race reports" is a subcategory of "Formula One race reports" and "Grand Prix race reports". Readro 13:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just wasn't sure whether the fact that :Category:Belgian Grand Prix race reports was a subcategory of :Category:Formula One race reports implied that everything included in :Category:Belgian Grand Prix race reports was a Formula One race report. If it's generally understood/accepted that the parent category only has to apply to some of the contents of the subcategory, then that's fine. DH85868993 23:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it should just be Category:Australian Grand Prix. Get rid of the race report part. Davnel03 14:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd say the best thing is to keep "<country> Grand Prix" and change the other ones. The categories will contain mostly race reports but also everything else that has to do with the Grand Prix, like the name suggests. Right now, the "race report" bit is only confusing. Bobby Doorknobs 03:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've moved all the race reports out of the "race reports" categories into the "<country> Grand Prix" categories. DH85868993 04:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: BTW Some reports also have the category "<year> in <country>". Should they be there? Bobby Doorknobs 03:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think <year> in <country> should stay. DH85868993 04:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree - I just started an attempt to help out with the category adding & sorting, but I'm not entirely sure about the order. <year> F1 race reports, <country> Grand Prix, and <year> in <country> -- right? Bobby Doorknobs 17:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  F1 race report categories 

message: :BTW Some reports also have the category "<year> in <country>". Should they be there? Bobby Doorknobs 03:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think <year> in <country> should stay. DH85868993 04:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree - I just started an attempt to help out with the category adding & sorting, but I'm not entirely sure about the order. <year> F1 race reports, <country> Grand Prix, and <year> in <country> -- right? Bobby Doorknobs 17:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: <year> in <country>

message: Hello everyone. I have recently joined wpf1 and as you may have noticed, I've spent some time working on the 1999 race reports. There are still a lot of things that need standardizing, and before I start working on other seasons, there are some things I would like to point out/discuss here. Thanks! Bobby Doorknobs 18:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon consideration, why do we need "of N" at all? The total number of laps is listed in the infobox anyway. I suggest we remove it, to avoid any potential confusion. DH85868993 23:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "of xx" does seem a bit redundant with the race total already listed under distance. Removal to avoid confusion gets my support also. AlexJ 23:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with AlexJ the "of xx" part isn't really needed. Davnel03 12:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me; could someone fix this please? Bobby Doorknobs 01:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. DH85868993 06:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I actually prefer the current alignment. I don't really like centred columns where the contents go wide, narrow, wide, wide, narrow, such as in the "Grid" column. DH85868993 23:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Same as DH; the current alignment is OK as it is. Davnel03 12:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok well it was just an idea. We'll see how things develop in the future :)  Bobby Doorknobs 01:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The Hour Format in race time came up at WP Motorsport a while back. Apparently the Manual of Style recommends using the colons as opposed to the apostrophe/quotes. AlexJ 22:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, here is the discussion. The consensus was to use colons throughout all the motorsport articles. DH85868993 23:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well at least that means I don't have to change everything :) Bobby Doorknobs 01:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Anyone care to comment on this? Another question regarding dsq's: some comments on race report talkpages claim that disqualified drivers do not autmatically get moved to the bottom of the list, i.e. the classification is the same, but with DSQ as result and "Disqualified" as description. This sounds logical to me (see for example M.Schumacher in the 1997 Formula One season), but there are many variations in the race reports - a standard is required. Bobby Doorknobs 02:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My personal preference is to leave disaqualified drivers in their "correct place" in the table, along with details of laps completed, race time, etc and just change the contents of the "Pos" column to "DSQ". Then it's immediately obvious where they would have been classified if they hadn't been disqualified, and which drivers benefitted from the disqualification. I don't like the idea of having two separate results tables for each race which had a disqualification. I'm ambivalent about the show/hide for results tables, but it seems like a lot of work for probably not much gain. If we hide the results tables, many of our race reports won't currently have much to show! DH85868993 02:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the input - after some thought I agree that your 'treatment' of disqualified drivers is the best option, although it may not be clear enough for people who are unfamiliar with F1. Perhaps a background color would help (again like the 2004 Canadian Grand Prix), but we'll get to that later. For now I will revert some of my earlier edits and put the dsq's back into their 'correct' position. As for the [Show/Hide] function, that's not really useful right now and you make a good point about the stubs - hiding the results would make the article disappear :) Still, I don't think it's a bad idea. Personally I am in favor of putting the results in their corresponding sections instead of at the bottom of the article, i.e. qualifying results after the qualifying summary, etc. The only problem is that doing this breaks up the article unless you float the tables or use show/hide. I would like to experiment with this but I don't know how it works. Bobby Doorknobs 18:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I've noticed you put a flag on the 1999 Hungarian Grand Prix race report. No offence, but we have never put flags there before. Davnel03 19:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I know. The flags are just temporarily to make it look a bit better - I remove them again once a race info box has been added. Just being creative but I'll stop doing it if more people object. Bobby Doorknobs 20:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like the flag up top, personally. Anyway, new topic: on the 1999 Hungarian Grand Prix page, the race results box conflicts with the side box on 800x600 screens like mine. How do we fix this? (I'm thinking "col-begin / col-1-of-3 / etc / col-end" code to force it to the left). Guroadrunner 10:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know the wikitext you refer to, but the best way to fix this is adding a race report :) Some similar stub-articles appear strange because of the infobox on higher resoltions as well. It's a bit annoying but I don't know how to fix it. About the 'flags' - I like them too but it's silly to have two flags (once an infobox has been added) so they're gone now. As a 'solution', perhaps it would be nice to make the flag in the infobox appear a bit larger? Bobby Doorknobs 18:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Race report issues: consensus needed 

message: I think it's time for an archive, this page is now incredibaly long and has been going since April. I would go and do it myself, but I don't know how to. Davnel03 12:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've archived all discussions which have been dormant since the end of June to Archive Page 10 (which is 199kb in size!). That includes a few discussions which hadn't reached a resolution - feel free to transfer back any discussions which you think should still be on this page. -- DH85868993 13:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've thought about this -- may we consider having a bot do the archiving work? Werdnabot does archiving for some WikiProjects (and user pages) Guroadrunner 10:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've archived it - a bot could be used if really wanted, but personally I prefer to have more control over such things.  violet/riga (t) 10:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time for an archive? 

message: Amedeofelix has expressed the opinion (on various talk pages) that some of the Ferrari Formula One car articles (specifically Ferrari 312B, Ferrari 312T, Ferrari 126 C and Ferrari 412T) are misleading, because they suggest that all the cars in each series are the same design, when they are not, and that the articles should be split (e.g. Ferrari 412T should be split into Ferrari 412T1 and Ferrari 412T2). (Amedeofelix, please advise if I have misrepresented your viewpoint). What do others think? DH85868993 12:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One alternative to splitting the articles would be to add "series" to the end of the article name, e.g. rename Ferrari 312T as Ferrari 312T series (with appropriate updates to the article text). DH85868993 14:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You put accross exactly what I was getting at. Another alternative is to have the cars listed individually and correctly on the main page (in this case Scuderia Ferrari) e.g. 312B3-73 and 312B3-74 etc. (in exactly this way), but have them all link through to the same page which is titled in the manner suggested above using "series". --Amedeo Felix 15:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ferrari Formula One car articles 

message: Over the past couple of weeks, various members of the project have added the project banner to quite a few article talk pages. On the assumption that there are still some further articles which need to have the banner added, for future talk page updates, would it be a good idea to add the talkheader template at the same time?  DH85868993 13:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I (among others) am working to put the project banner on all race report articles, and subsequently rate them. As an addition (or alternative) for the talkheader, you may want to take a look at the To-do list that some of us recently started using. Right now they have been added to the 1997 and 1999 season race reports, and I've also used them to get some 2000 race reports up to "Start-Class". Bobby Doorknobs 01:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of project banner to article talk pages 

message: During Scuderia Italia's time in F1, was the team only ever refered to as Scuderia Italia, or did the official entry lists and stuff list them as BMS Scuderia Italia, which appears to be their full name.  I asking this because I am considering changing the title of the Scuderia Italia article to reflect the team's correct name as it stands at the moment at least. The359 22:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the season articles, the team seems to be entered most often as just Scuderia Italia. If those listings are correct, I think this name should be used. It is also the most commonly known name and I would imagine best reflects the team's identity. We could be very technical, though I believe the current format works best. Dale-DCX 06:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The policy is "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize," which to me means the most common name which in this case is Scuderia Italia. AlexJ 10:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which, by way of precedent, is the logic we used for Brabham. The normal name on the entry list was Motor Racing Developments, but that would be horribly confusing. 4u1e 17:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scuderia Italia 

message: All the Ferrari F1 car articles now contain the (recently-created) "Scuderia Ferrari" template:
and the older "Ferrari Formula 1 cars" template:
I think they probably don't need both. Which one should go? (Or could/should they be combined in some way?) DH85868993 12:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say the latter should go. Perhaps the first should have the cars split up into decades? AlexJ 12:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The new one is more like other F1 boxes--— Typ932T | C  12:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  To avoid confusion, when I said the latter I meant the 2nd one shown above which is the earlier one. To clarify, keep the one which looks like the current style (first one shown above). AlexJ 16:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Ferrari cars one should go. Davnel03 15:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any further views on this? If not, I'll remove the "timeline" template soon. DH85868993 03:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the "timeline" template from the articles. DH85868993 10:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have nominated  for deletion. Discussion here. DH85868993 03:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ferrari templates 

message: The results tables in McLaren, McLaren Grand Prix results and McLaren MP4-22 currently show McLaren's results in Hungary as "EX". I think this is incorrect; I think the results tables should show the results as 1st and 4th, but with footnotes indicating that no constructor's points were awarded. What do others think? DH85868993 14:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; that's how I originally entered the results before they were changed.--Diniz (talk) 14:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The results table in the McLaren article now show the results as 4th and 1st, but McLaren Grand Prix results and McLaren MP4-22 still show "EX". chem_tom 16:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think consistency is required whichever way we decide to go. I think the positions should be given (after all the cars entered by the team did finish 1st and 4th, just the constructors points weren't awarded.) with the constructors championship footnote added. Of course the appeal could succeed and none of this will be needed. AlexJ 18:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At the moment the articles should all read that the cars finished in 1st and 4th. However, there should be note stating the car and the constructor (in their respected articles) scored no points. A note similar to the one on F1.com would be wise: Note - McLaren were not allowed to score constructors' points in the Hungarian Grand Prix as penalty for allowing Fernando Alonso to impede Lewis Hamilton during qualifying. After the appeal (if it does happen) we should adjust the results accordingly. Since the team was not excluded, they should not be listed as such. Dale-DCX 19:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've updated McLaren Grand Prix results and McLaren MP4-22 as per this discussion. DH85868993 23:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  McLaren's results in Hungary 

message: I just came across this article a short while ago. While the article looks nicely set out, I think there is one distinct problem with it. The table located here, wouldn't it be better if it was located near the bottom of the page. I think the table splits up the text and makes it harder to read. I think it would be better at the bottom of the page. What do other users think about this table located in it's current position? Davnel03 15:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I put the table there is so it keeps the F3000 involvement of the team in the same place, so if someone wants to cross-reference the text and the results, they won't have to jump between the top and bottom of the article.  I appreciate that it breaks up the article text, but I believe it makes more sense for the results tables to correspond to their relevant section, rather than grouping them together in a big lump.--Diniz (talk) 17:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just came across this article a short while ago? You mean April? Anyway, I'm inclined to agree that the results should go at the bottom to avoid breaking up the prose. Be interesting to hear what others think. AlexJ 19:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the table should be moved so as to be consistent with other F1 articles. I can't find an example for a constructor (admittedly I haven't looked hard) but Juan Pablo Montoya and Jacques Villeneuve are examples. BeL1EveR 23:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK then, I'll move the table as requested.--Diniz (talk) 11:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question on Forti article 

message: I proposed this question a while back and I don't think I ever got a conclusive answer.  The articles on Scuderia Toro Rosso's cars has them titled as Scuderia Toro Rosso STR1 and Scuderia Toro Rosso STR2.  This has always bugged me because of the fact that the full team name is used.  We have Ferrari F2007 and not Scuderia Ferrari F2007, Red Bull RB3 and not Red Bull Racing RB3.  So why are these cars not Toro Rosso STR1 and Toro Rosso STR2?
:I would prefer to see the articles titled "Toro Rosso STR1" and "Toro Rosso STR2", on the basis that we describe the cars as just "Toro Rosso-Ferraris" in the race reports. DH85868993 04:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm 50/50 with this one, but I think we should just leave it as it is now. Davnel03 07:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I prefer to see "Super Aguri" in full used everywhere. DH85868993 04:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather see Super Aguri everywhere too. Davnel03 07:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Concur with Davnel and DH regarding Super Aguri -- in the States, we call it the Super Aguri team (or, colloquially, the Super Best Friends team). Guroadrunner 10:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, I agree with shortening the Scuderia Toro Rosso articles to just Toro Rosso - as that is what they are more commonly referred to, but Super Aguri should say the same, definately. Lradrama 12:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Lradrama - Toro Rosso. Super Aguri. Bretonbanquet 12:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, Toro Rosso and Super Aguri seems right as Scuderia means team (not literally but in this usage) and we don't say Williams Team FW21. AlexJ 14:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Readro 15:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, since most of the "regulars" seem to be in agreement, I'll make the change to the two Toro Rosso articles. DH85868993 16:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved the articles. DH85868993 16:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Toro Rosso's cars 

message: I'm adding the F1 results to the Zakspeed page but i'm finding conflicting results. On Jonathan Palmer's page, it says he RET from the 1985 San Marino Grand Prix and says he did not enter the last 5 1985 races (blank). But on the Zakspeed 841 chassis page, it says he DNS the 1985 San Marino GP and says he was INJ for the last 5 1985 races. Can Someone help? Eddie6705 21:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Palmer's page is slightly wrong. He DNS at San Marino 1985, after a misfire in warm-up. After the Dutch race he broke his leg at a sports car meeting, the same meeting at which Stefan Bellof was killed, I think. Zakspeed did not attend the Italian GP, and after that Danner drove for two races. Zakspeed did not go to South Africa or Australia. Bretonbanquet 21:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Sounds perfect :) Bretonbanquet 21:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Formula One Results

message: If this becomes an even bigger issue, might it be appropriate for the rivalry and falling out between Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton to warrant its own article, similar to 2007 Formula One espionage controversy?--Diniz (talk) 17:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that there would be enough for a separate article, with all such details put in the 2007 season article.  violet/riga (t) 17:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Alonso or Hamilton leaves McLaren at the end of the season, we should create one. We could create one at the moment, but what would be a suitable title? Infact, I was thinking we merge the espionage controversy into a article called 2007 Formula One season controversies. There has been quite a few this season:
* Customer car row.
* Alonso/Hamilton.
* Espionage.
There might be one or two that I can't think of right now, what do you guyz think of that idea? Davnel03 17:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't have an article, nor has it been suggested, for the Alain Prost/Ayrton Senna spat that occured during their time at McLaren and that if anything was worse than this (at least at present). AlexJ 17:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not nearly big enough for a separate article. Readro 17:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 2007 Formula One season controversies is a possibility, but Senna-Prost doesn't have an individual article, which I think should set the precident. I'd also like to add that I'm opposed to any of the proposed articles in this section being created before the end of the season; we don't know the final outcome of the espionage, or a reliable account of the Alonso-Hamilton relationship behind closed doors and its repercussions for the future. BeL1EveR 22:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Alonso's role/perspective covered at his article, same for Hamilton. And McLaren perspective (and the 'equality' rule which is provoking the dispute) is covered at that article. Nowhere near complicated enough for its own article - in contrast to the highly complex espionage case. Mark83 22:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: At the moment, and if they make up again and go skipping into the sunset hand in hand after all and live happily ever after, then I think no such article need be created. If the situation between the two worsens, and especially if it results in vicious quarrells, or one of the pair leaving the team, then yes, an article should be created. Lradrama 10:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alonso-Hamilton spat 

message: I 've just looked at the 2011 season page and there is now 24 speculated grands prix. How much evidence is needed before a grand prix can be added to the list? Eddie6705 11:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, it is getting a bit ridiculous. Currently none of the rounds are sourced - I suggest we have an extra column to differentiate between confirmed rounds (that is circuits which have already signed a contract that goes as far as 2011) and rumoured rounds. Each round must have a citation from a reliable source. Thoughts? AlexJ 11:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that 2011 is too far in the future to have a page. If there's any content worth saving it should be put in Future of Formula One. Readro 11:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Having an article for a Formula One season four years in the future is taking things rather far. I agree with the idea that it should be placed in Future of Formula One. The article could be very misleading, with only speculation fuelling the content of the article as of yet. Lradrama 18:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not fussed either way, but I suggest we do try and come up with an agreed time period for future seasons articles (2 seasons in advance perhaps) which barring exceptional circumstances and a discussion means we only have articles for 1/2/3/4 seasons in advance, creating a new one at the end/start of each season. Any stuff that's further ahead than this would go in the future of F1 article. Having an agreed guideline would make things easier IMO. AlexJ 19:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We had this discussion earlier. Anyway, I think the 2011 article should be deleted or merge. Davnel03 19:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes, I agree we should have future articles, like say, for 2008/09 but as I said before, 2011 might be overstepping-the-mark. Lradrama 21:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The previous discussion didn't agree on what would be a reasonable period, only that 2011 is too far ahead. AlexJ 22:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 2011 Speculated Race Schedule

message: In the F1 driver articles, do we need/want references for dates of birth and death? If so, are we happy with oldracingcars.com Where Are They Now? as a reference? DH85868993 11:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the words of WP:REF, we only need provide an inline citation for "direct quotes and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged". I can't see that birth dates are in question for most drivers. They are supurious. As for the reliability of oldracingcars.com I would say that it is as good as the web gets. The site is updated frequently, and has had material contributed by some big names in motorsport journalism. Pyrope 11:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a claim of plagiarism on the AtlasF1 forum because some of the dates of birth and death, particularly for North American drivers, had never been published before and were obtained through hard research. These were then taken from the Where Are They Now site and published on Wikipedia without acknowledging where the information had come from. The situation seems to have died down a bit now, but out of courtesy, we really ought to acknowledge our souces. Readro 11:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I always find the ITV Sport Guide - Grand Prix (year) book useful for driver birth dates and other such details if you want to consider using non-internet refs. Don't know if any of you have read/purchased those guides but it's very useful. Just an idea. Lradrama 11:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For some obscure drivers the actual dates may be challenged. On that basis you should cite. However, you can't plagiarise a fact! They either were or were not born on the date claimed. If the information is now in the public arena, through AtlasF1, ORC or anywhere else, it is fair game. As an example, map makers have to introduce deliberate errors to their products so that they can be legally protected. By all means be polite and cite them as a general source, but they don't require inline citation. Pyrope 11:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an old saying better to be safe than sorry, in this case better to be safe by inserting the references or to be sorry by having somebody possibly removing them. Yeah, references do need to be added. Davnel03 13:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty low priority to get DOB referenced. Do it if you happen to be working on an article but I wouldn't say we need a drive to do it. I can't think of any challenges/disputes since the WP was set up three years ago. AlexJ 15:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I was totally unaware of the clause about "material that is challenged or likely to be challenged" in WP:REF. In hindsight, I've probably been adding lots of unnecessary inline refs to the race report articles for things like pole position times, lap on which fastest lap was set, etc. In future, when updating a race report, I'll just add a blanket ref to the sources used (e.g. the specific race report page at www.formula1.com, the relevant issue of AUTOCOURSE, the relevant volume of Lang's Grand Prix!, etc) in a "References" or "Sources" section at the bottom, and discuss any errors in or conflicts between the sources on the talk page, as Bobby Doorknobs has been doing for the 1999 race report articles, e.g. talk:1999 Australian Grand Prix. -- DH85868993 04:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point - I meant to bring this up earlier. There are race reports that have 50+ footnotes, and that's just not necessary when you look at the explanation in WP:REF. Al it does is make the articles harder to edit and verify. If you start off with a few references that cover most of the article and use footnotes for errors and exceptions, that should be enough and it keeps the articles accessible. About the listing of reference errors on the talk pages: this is always a good idea but I was under the impression that mentioning errors on the talkpage alone is not enough (because it's not part of the article), and you would still need some footnotes in the text. I haven't done this yet in the 99 season articles because I'm not sure if it's necessary; does anyone know if you could get away with 'talkpage only'? Bobby Doorknobs 19:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you shouldn't. A reference can be more specified and discussed at the talk page, e.g. discussions about the accuracy of the source, but the real reference should always be noted in the article proper. John Andersson  10:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  F1 driver birth and death date references 

message: :I was totally unaware of the clause about "material that is challenged or likely to be challenged" in WP:REF. In hindsight, I've probably been adding lots of unnecessary inline refs to the race report articles for things like pole position times, lap on which fastest lap was set, etc. In future, when updating a race report, I'll just add a blanket ref to the sources used (e.g. the specific race report page at www.formula1.com, the relevant issue of AUTOCOURSE, the relevant volume of Lang's Grand Prix!, etc) in a "References" or "Sources" section at the bottom, and discuss any errors in or conflicts between the sources on the talk page, as Bobby Doorknobs has been doing for the 1999 race report articles, e.g. talk:1999 Australian Grand Prix. -- DH85868993 04:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point - I meant to bring this up earlier. There are race reports that have 50+ footnotes, and that's just not necessary when you look at the explanation in WP:REF. Al it does is make the articles harder to edit and verify. If you start off with a few references that cover most of the article and use footnotes for errors and exceptions, that should be enough and it keeps the articles accessible. About the listing of reference errors on the talk pages: this is always a good idea but I was under the impression that mentioning errors on the talkpage alone is not enough (because it's not part of the article), and you would still need some footnotes in the text. I haven't done this yet in the 99 season articles because I'm not sure if it's necessary; does anyone know if you could get away with 'talkpage only'? Bobby Doorknobs 19:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you shouldn't. A reference can be more specified and discussed at the talk page, e.g. discussions about the accuracy of the source, but the real reference should always be noted in the article proper. John Andersson  10:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References & Footnotes

message: Per a discussion with 4u1e; we've agreed to put the article on peer review; feel free to comment on possible improvements that could be made here. Thanks. Davnel03 15:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Brabham BT19]] 

message: Currently Monaco GP is redirecting to Super Monaco GP, a video game. Compare this to most other Country GP which go to Country Grand Prix. Are we happy with this redirect, or should we discuss with the Video Games Wikiproject changing it to a disambiguation page containing Monaco Grand Prix, Monaco Grand Prix (video game) and Super Monaco GP (and it's sequel)? AlexJ 00:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support the redirect pointing to a disambiguation page called Monaco Grand Prix (disambiguation) containing links as described above. Perhaps this would be a good opportunity to create disambiguation pages for most of the Grands Prix, to address the issue discussed here. DH85868993 00:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, disambig. The359 01:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had a look and decided I don't like the current situation at all. I fully support the  disambiguation page idea. Lradrama 12:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Good work, Pyrope. Does anyone have any objections to me creating similar disambiguation pages for other F1 Grands Prix where there are other reasonable claimants to the "<country> Grand Prix" title (typically a motorcycle or speedway Grand Prix)? DH85868993 04:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. There are plenty of other xxx Grand Prix claimants out there. Motocross, MotoGP, athletics, powerboats, and even squash all have a "British Grand Prix", for example. Pyrope 07:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created (and linked) disambiguation pages for all the F1 Grands Prix which have corresponding motorcycle and/or speedway GPs. DH85868993 15:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monaco GP Redirect 

message: Is currently on hold for GAC. The main author is currently AWOL. Is anyone interested in filling out the lead and the main body of the race? Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 02:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Follow-up: GA failed. Guroadrunner 11:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[2007 British Grand Prix]] 

message: Diniz has very kindly done a full table of results for Brabham, which exists as a separate page at Brabham Grand Prix results. I was just double checking the details when I ran into an issue - Jack Brabham competed for the Brabham Racing Organisation at the 1963 Monaco Grand Prix, but he was driving a Lotus that day. For consistency in having the complete results we can go one of two ways:
#Give all results scored for the constructor Brabham. (Two problems: Firstly, the table will be big for the early years, because in the mid 1960s there were up to seven Brabham cars entered in each race, albeit by different teams, and the team doing the entry would have to be specified. Secondly, in some seasons more than one engine type was used, so Brabham appears several times in the constructors championship (i.e. Brabham-Repco, Brabham-Climax, Brabham-Ford, all for the same year) This option is probably quite a lot more work.
#Give all results scored by the Brabham team (Two problems: Firstly that occasionally in 1962 and 1963 Jack Brabham was entered by BRO in various Lotuses, Secondly that in some years other teams using Brabhams scored constructors' championship points for Brabham. Both problems mean that the points 'scored' by the Brabham team do not equate to the points scored by Brabham the constructor. In reality it's only the constructor that counts, there is no 'teams' championship)
Anyone got a view on which is the best way to go? 4u1e 16:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Be as inclusive as possible. All entries of BRO as a team (including uses of a Lotus chassis) and all private entries, and explaining everything at the bottom of the table. --Pc13 21:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do both, you mean? Now that really is a mammoth task! (and would be deserving of being a featured list or similar). 4u1e 22:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Pc13. And likewise for McLaren, Lotus, Ferrari, March, etc. The trick is to come up with a format that's accurate and makes sense but is not too confusing for non-experts. I'd recommend identifying non-works entries by putting the driver's name in italics. An alternative would be to add an "Entrant" column, but that would add extra width to the table, which is generally discouraged (I guess it depends how important we think the names of the non-works entrants are). Regarding the BRO Lotus, I'd suggest giving it a separate line within the 1963 section of the table, so it can visibly excluded from the totals shown in the Points and WCC columns (although it's a bit moot, since Jack didn't score any points with the car). Regarding the different engines, we could either just list all the engines in the same cell (as currently done for 1966) and just have multiple values in the same cell in the Points and WCC columns (with an explanatory note) or we could subdivide each year section into a row for each engine supplier (which would sometimes result in the same driver being listed multiple times in the same year). DH85868993 01:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been working on something in my sandbox - here. Only got as far as 1965 tonight. Readro 02:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the above comments that it would be best to include all team and chassis results.  Of the current  existing tables, this would also affect WilliamsF1 Grand Prix results, as several ex-Williams chassis were used by RAM.  Perhaps an option would be to put the Brabham team results in one table, including non-Brabham chassis, and private entries using Brabham chassis in another, similar to how championship and non-championship results are separated in Fittipaldi?--Diniz (talk) 13:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a second table to Brabham Grand Prix results detailing all the non-works Brabham results in the World Championship. One thing I'm not quite clear on - was Rolf Stommelen's Auto Motor und Sport entry in 1970 run by the works team? Readro 20:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brabham results 

message: :Priority: Low
So this image of Max Mosley is under consideration for deletion. It was released under a Wikipedia-acceptable license, but the issue was raised if it is just a photochop of a copyrighted photo, or a photochop with a head placed on a fake body. If anything, fair use?
The discussion can be found at this link on Commons
Guroadrunner 07:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The head certainly seems legitimately attached to the body.  But yes, there should be a photo that is not done up like that.  I seem to remember there being a normal photo there a few months ago? The359 07:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair use cannot be claimed on an image of a living person. The main problem is that fact that it's proving hard to establish whether the original photo was released under a free licence. The original isn't published on the creators flickr account. As for the head on fake body - check out the heavy compression artifacts on the suit, but crystal clear image of his face. If these parts were always one photo, it should all either be clear or have the compression on it. AlexJ 09:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's definitely a fake image and should be deleted.  The Flickr user also created a similar photo of Alex Wurz, which was uploaded and deleted within 24 hours or so.--Diniz (talk) 09:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Max Mosley image being questioned 

message: Let's make a list:
*GA: 2007 British GP (on hold), under consideration: Toyota F1
*FAC: 2007 Malaysian Grand Prix, (soon) Brabham BT19, 
I'd like to get a full list and then stick them on the taskbox/to-do list for the "evaluate" section. Guroadrunner 07:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brabham BT19 is undergoing peer review at the moment.  I assume it'll be nominated for FAC soon. The359 07:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 2007 French Grand Prix passed GA (although it shouldn't of been!!), but needs more improvement so that it goes against GA guidlines. 2007 Malaysian Grand Prix is in urgent need of comments otherwise that could be getting failed. Yeah, depending on how the PR goes Brabham BT19 could be nominated for FA end of September. Ah, 2007 British Grand Prix failed because nobody improved it......... Davnel03 08:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quick question on the race reports, why did we go from saying "The YYYY Venue Grand Prix was a Formula One motor race held on Month DD, YYYY at the Circuit Name in Town, Country." to "The YYYY Venue Grand Prix was the (rdnumber) race of the YYYY Formula One season. It was held on DD Month at Circuit Name."? The former opening told those who are unaware what F1 is that it was a motorrace, and gave the location of the track. The newer one seems more assuming that the reader knows what F1 is and knows the circuits. AlexJ 11:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea. I always tended to use the first example, see the Malaysia race, while the newer ones was written by other users and put onto articles like the British one above. Davnel03 12:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  So wait, what is up for FAC/GA nomination? 

message: Separated discussion to its own section Guroadrunner 10:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In a month or two, I think we should put Toyota F1 up for GA status again. It's significantly improved since last time. Lradrama 14:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are going to nominate it for GA in a few months, I suggest you remove the statistics section. Davnel03 15:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I partially agree. I think the stats section should be fleshed out more instead of being axed. My issue is the "Notable drivers" section, which overlaps tremendously with the individual articles of Trulli and R. Schumacher. I personally would recommend shrinking that section a bunch, but I add that as a passive criticism (i.e. I'm not going to fight for it). Guroadrunner 10:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we also agree to making the current season report more of a summary? It's getting a bit more like a log don't we think. I think I'd better suggest that before it gets out of hand. Lradrama 16:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, ahould be a summary. Davnel03 19:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Toyota F1]] for GA nomination?

message: Just thought I'd let you all know that I've re-ordered the members list and put all the usernames in alphabetical order. I think it looks better presented and neater that way, and it makes it easier to find specific Wikipedians if you need a certain user. I've also put an alphabetical order notice in the introduction to that sub-section so it'll be kept that way. :-) Lradrama 11:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. Guroadrunner 05:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Members list 

message: Following the lead of , what do people think of the idea of adding the following fields to  and ?:
* date of birth
* place of birth
* date of death
* retired
* related to
Obviously the fields would be hidden unless populated, and you wouldn't populate them for drivers like Timo Glock, who also have  in their article. DH85868993 08:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, on consideration, I'm not keen. I can see where you are coming from but I firmly believe that an infobox should contain only the essentials, and too many details just serve to obscure the relevant information. We certainly do not need "place of birth", "retired" and "related to", although I can see some biographical merit in the birth and death dates. However... we already have these displayed prominently at the top of the vast majority of articles, is not as if you have to go burrowing through a mountain of prose to find them. Keep boxes punchy and to the point. Pyrope 09:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  +1 with Pyrope's comments - no need for birth date/death date in the box. I don't understand what would be in the "retired" field? I suppose a yes/no parameter?  Guroadrunner 10:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The doc for  indicates this field should be populated with the year the driver retired. DH85868993 10:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you define that??? Is Mansell retired? He still competes now and again in some pretty potent machinery. Is Moss retired? He still goes hammer and tongs in those historic races that he contests. Do you stop a driver's career when they drive their last race, or when they stop looking for a new race drive? And how do you know that they have actaully stopped? The concept is far too nebulous. Pyrope 11:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  While that's a good point for the motorsport infobox, wouldn't the F1 infobox already have "retired" covered in some way with the "last race" marker -- i.e. "retired from F1" like Katayama and Berger -- barring the drivers killed on-track in F1? (and furthermore barring those active F1 drivers killed elsewhere, like Mark Donohue). Guroadrunner 11:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both "last race" and "Participated" already cover that information, and in a far more definite way. Pyrope 11:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As part of the rationalisation of motorsport driver templates, I've been working on a combined F1 driver and former F1 driver template brought in line with the new IRD style to allow them to be stacked nicely. A WIP is here. AlexJ 12:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice, just needs the name a bit bigger and you are pretty much there. Going to be interesting constructing a pro forma and instruction page! Pyrope 23:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible additions to {{tl|F1 driver}} and {{tl|Former F1 driver}} 

message: It's a pet project for me, but I'm looking for articles that have personal information about Yuji Ide - the guy's upbringing, if he's married, etc. I haven't found anything in English, so these articles are probably in Japanese. So, all I need are the links and then I can use Altavista Babelfish to translate and (in theory) use as best-case-scenario references.
Let me know if you can help out by posting here. Guroadrunner 11:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Translation might be of some use.--Diniz (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone speak Japanese ? 

message: My recent edits to 2007 Formula One season were for the Turkey GP not the Hungary GP. I just made a mistake in the edit summaries. Sorry! chem_tom 15:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No worries but thank you for adding to the article. Most users don't even add an edit summary, when they should. Minor inaccuracies in the edit summary is nothing to worry about. Guroadrunner 05:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I just say that it bugs me also when users don't use the edit summary, even for minor edits. It saves all the checking to see what they've done that way. Lradrama 09:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Of course, the people who would be reading this page are the ones who do the right thing... DH85868993 10:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, too, but sometimes, I just accidentally forget. Davnel03 15:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can change a setting somewhere that prompts you if you don't fill out the edit summary. AlexJ 22:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My recent edits 

message: Some users find it necessary to keep adding 24 and 25 next to prodrive for the 2008 season. This should be left blank until at least the end of the season. Is there anyway we can stop this happening? Eddie6705
:To the best of my knowledge there will definitely not be a car 25 on the grid next season. Whether Prodrive get 24 or not is also not yet decided (as a possible McLaren 'B' team, who's to say they won't end up with Alonso as WDC next season, or will Super Aguri's financial problems (as speculated by ITV's coverage) mean we'll have 22 cars on the grid next season?). Anyway, if it's sustained vandalism by an IP address you can try and make a request for semi-protection at Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection. AlexJ 22:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, if 12 teams do enter then one team (eg. prodrive) will have the numbers 24 and 25 as the number 13 is not used. Eddie6705 22:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Readro 22:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be willing to bet on Prodrive being given #24 and #25 next season, but it's really not pertinent to add it to Wikipedia articles as if it were already confirmed. The only way they'll be given any other numbers is if the WDC drives for them or another team disappears - neither is likely, but possible. Bretonbanquet 22:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, of course forgot about the avoidance of No. 13. Still, there's a possibility it won't be 24&25 so until we get a confirmed reference (i.e. the FIA entry list) it doesn't belong in the article. AlexJ 23:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I strongly recommend against posting any car numbers for the 2008 season, even once this season ends. Imagine if Spyker or Super Aguri shuts down -- that changes everything. Guroadrunner 06:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We can add numbers for the top six or seven teams at the season's end though, those that will definately be there, because Spyker and Super Aguri will surely finish near the back of the standings. Lradrama 14:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Compromise: I'd say that all the teams that finish above Super Aguri or Spyker, if they truly are under threat. I figure if a team drops out before the start of the season, everyone else's numbers move up?? Guroadrunner 06:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, fag packet benefit-loss analysis. Benefit of speculative numbers: nil. Potential for confusion and inaccuracy: high. Result, don't do it. There is no point adding guessed (yes, you are just guessing, no matter how well-informed) numbers to any article. When the entry list is published then add the numbers, not before. And if I see them there I'll delete them, there is far too much speculation in the future season articles as it is without adding this rubbish. Pyrope 09:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well...I think he's made his point. Lradrama 09:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just couldn't believe that this was even being debated! Pyrope 09:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, looking at it, you are quite right. Wikipedia's got enough enreferenced guesswork as it is without those who know what they're doing (most of the time!) doing the exact same. Thanks for your statement! ;-)  Lradrama 09:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formula One 2008 (Prodrive Numbers)