Talk:Jérôme Kerviel

message: The New York Times reported that several websites have put up recordings of Kerviel's voice recording from his mobile phone.  Does anybody have a link to one of these that we can put up?  I'd like to hear him.  Thanks in advance.
*I dont think so; thats probably NYT copy. Mystache (talk) 21:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mobile phone recording of Jerome's Kerviel's voice 

message: Part of the PR campaign in the media against Kerviel includes this repeated assertion that he was mediocre/undistinguished and not a real financial genius. These are 'weasel' terms. Even if you back up the claim that he was "undistinguished" with a quote from a former professor, could someone explain to me the difference between a fraudulent trader who is a genius and a fraudulent trader who is only mediocre or undistinguished?! His university grades have been cited as B+, which outside of grade inflation schools, suggests he was a good student. Also he started at the bank in a back office technical trading support function and then was promoted to a trading position. Is this an indication that he was mediocre? Objectively you would consider this a sign of his genius.  I think we should remove the weasel quote from his former professor.
I think the fact that he earned a $1000 bonus last year tells us all we need to know about how remarkable he was.  The average trader in his first year on a bank trading desk would earn about $50k as a bonus.  Most traders would view a $1000 bonus as the equivalent to being asked to resign. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 09:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The remark above is far less neutral than the wording in the article thus far.  Media "hype" is one thing, and the article here shouldn't exacerbate any hype.  But his "averageness" is part of what's noteworthy about him; it is leading financial experts to doubt he worked alone, and also adding to suspicions against the bank that maybe there was gross laxness in their audit controls that one average trader could be trading sums of that size under the radar.  Tweaking is welcome, just not so far as to take the position the claims are part a "campaign to discredit" him unless there are published references making that association.  Professor marginalia (talk) 21:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Unremarkable' accusation 

message: I thought that there was some policy that said people who are known for only one notable event are not notable enough to warrant inclusion, even if the event itself is? I'm not sure about this, by the way, but maybe someone knows what I'm talking about and, if it exists, why it doesn't apply here? —msikma (user, talk) 20:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the reasoning behind that guideline is so that you don't end up with a biography page on every person who was involved in an event which warrants an article, similar to the idea that "notability is not inheritable".  In this case (and Nick Leeson), the biography page itself is serving as the article on the notable event, so there's not a contradiction. —dgiestc 20:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

text: As it stands now, this is the most damaging rogue trader in history.  To consider deleting this article because the person is known for "one notable event" would be like deleting the John Wilkes Booth article because he was known for "one notable event." Msikma, you can offer it up for AfD if you truly feel this doesn't meet notability standards.--Oakshade (talk) 21:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Oakshade, you absolutely hit the nail on the head.  This definitely deserves an article.  This guy, through his alleged fraud, lost an amount of money almost equal to Societe Generale's 2006 net income.  That is very significant and, as you said, it the largest amount in history.  Clinevol98 (talk) 21:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, don't undercut Booth, he was in fact quite a popular actor.  But yes, BLP 1 Event is a precaution, not a policy.Joshdboz (talk) 22:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, John Wilkes Booth would merit a Wikipedia article even had he never assissinated the President.  He was the equivalent of the Tom Cruise or the Johnny Depp of his day—a popular and famous figure, a household name. Robert K S (talk) 07:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't think this article should be AfD'ed. I was confused for a second because I thought that the rules stated that this article should not be included. Thanks for linking to the pertaining WP page. —msikma (user, talk) 14:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

text: *As it stands, I also believe that Kerviel may well still fall to be covered by WP:BLP1E. It is too early to tell for the subject: SG may be in some trouble, but has not crashed yet; Leeson caused the spectacular crash of Barings, he wrote Rogue Trader and was also the subject of a movie of the same name. Booth's role in history is also well documented, having been the first to cause the demise of a sitting US President. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If losing 4.9 billion euro doesn't make you notable, I don't know what does. Timan123 (talk) 14:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Even if SG survives this loss, the historic implications of this person still makes the person notable.  Jayson Blair had serious credibility implications to the New York Times, however the NYT has not only survived but is still one of the most respected newspapers in the world.  Jérôme Kerviel might not "bring down" SG, but his actions will be forever under scrutiny by regulators, executives, accountants, journalists, historians and academics as to how one such relatively low-level trader can secretly lose billions of dollars and what safeguards companies around the world can do to prevent it from happening again.  Even the opening of WP:BIO (which is what WP:BLP1E is a sub-clause of) states there are common sense exceptions.  If this subject fails our notability guidelines, our guidelines are failing us. --Oakshade (talk) 17:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  One notable event 

message: There are three references to the same NYT article. I don't know how to get them all pointing to one entry in the references list. Can someone help?217.43.226.218 (talk) 23:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Look how the 3 instances of the 1st reference (the Alumni directory) are formatted.  That's called a "named reference" and any time you repeat it with the same name you only get another backlink, not a duplicate listing. —dgiestc 23:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: This article and other references to M. Kerviel on Wikipedia may present libel-related dangers.
M. Kerviel has not yet been charged with a crime. All of the accusations are coming from the company.
In U.S. libel law, it doesn't matter if a publication makes a libelous statement itself or if it simply reports a libelous statement that someone else made. It's still libel. If a newspaper writes, "Frank Johnson said Ian Palmer is a thief," it's no different from writing, "Ian Palmer is a thief." 
The exception is if the statement is coming from an official source, like a police report or indictment. That's not the case yet. 
That said, some media outlets clearly have been willing to take the risk and report the accusations the company is making against its trader.
If we must follow them, we can best reduce our libel danger by sticking exclusively to what's been written in the media. Absolutely everything must be attributed to The Wall Street Journal, Reuters or whatever.
Secondly, we've got to avoid phrases like "Kerviel is alleged to have engaged in fradulent trading." Phrases like "is alleged" offer no libel protection. We've got to say who is doing the alleging. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:33, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please cite your source for your assertion that repeating sourced libel constitutes libel.Wjhonson (talk) 04:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Republication of a libel is no less actionable than its original publication in defamation law. American courts have traditionally refused to distinguish publishers from re-publishers of defamatory statements on the theory that "tale bearers are as bad as tale makers." -- Newspaper Research Journal, Winter 2006 (). -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Anyone can sue anyone for any reason anytime, anyway. I heard some dude sued God recently. Apparently God has been wilfully, knowingly, and negligently causing the deaths of thousands of people daily. Stuff happens :)  -- Y not be working? 17:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I read about that. It was some sort of political protest that was thrown out of court. Montana? Politition? protesting that anyone can sue anyone? WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

text: If this is libel under US law, then every major American publication is going to be sued. There is such a thing as freedom of speech, and there is neither an intention of malice nor a knowledge of the falsity of the accusation on our part.  Joshdboz (talk) 17:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we qualify statements with in-line citations, like "according to this paper or source" they "allege or believe that so-and-so committed this crime" et cetera?  If we're citing sources with "ref" tags at the potentially offending lines, wouldn't that be sufficient?  We're not reporting news - we're making legitimate documentation of the event for historical purposes.  Whether it turns out that he did or didn't do it should have no effect on how we document the event as a whole other than reflecting what is officially decided later. It will still be historically relevant if the allegations were false, and that the media upscaled his involvement. TopherGZ (talk) 19:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential libel problems 

message: If found guilty of what? Either specify or delete the sentence.217.43.226.218 (talk) 08:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Le Figaro simply states that for this magnitude of fraud, he risks 5 to 15 years of jailtime.  The ref's there, feel free to reword if you want. Joshdboz (talk) 12:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article refers to three charges; presumably the part you refer to is referring back to those charges: "Une plainte au pénal pour «faux en écritures bancaires» et «intrusion informatique» a été déposée hier par la Société générale à Nanterre. Une deuxième plainte pour «escroquerie, abus de confiance et faux», a été déposée au nom d'un groupe d'actionnaires à Paris." So we need a translation of those three charges. I'm reluctant to attempt it.217.43.226.218 (talk) 21:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Le Figaro only mentions two lawsuits (plainte), but the latribune.fr Friday article does mention a third lawsuit, claimed by APPAC (Association des petits porteurs actifs - an association for individual shareholders) but which as of Friday was not received according to Agence France-Presse. I also do not wish to attempt a definitive translation, but Le Figaro speculated that depending on the extent of the fraud (escroquerie in the second lawsuit from an individual shareholder), a person might attract a 5 to 15 year sentence. The first lawsuit is the bank's (forgery of bank documents and "computer intrusion" whatever that means), and the third from APPAC (see Latribune.fr) was for diffusion de fausses informations ou trompeuses ayant agi sur le cours de Bourse des titres - roughly, transmission of false or misleading information on the Stock exchange. Latribune mentions only three year sentences are possible for each of the charges. By the way the French news articles do not state the lawsuits are directed at Kerviel and indeed appear to be saying an investigation is required to determine true culpability (using my poor French comprehension). -Wikianon (talk) 03:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "If found guilty he would face 5 to 15 years in prison"

message: I may be splitting hairs, but are we sure that he's a 'former' trader? Yesterday's Telegraph article explicitly said that he hadn't been sacked. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until he is, but there are procedures to go through. I suspect that he's suspended from duty pending a tribunal or something. Does anyone know? --Heron (talk) 21:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: LA Times refers to him as "former" here  - Problem with very new news stories is that details coming out in the beginning are sketchy and inconsistent, and sometimes it's impossible to tell which is "more" correct.  Professor marginalia (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I queried this earlier, but the NYT article (ref 7) says "Société Générale said the trader is no longer working for the bank". There was a reference to that NYT article right after that sentence about 'former', but someone has removed it.217.43.226.218 (talk) 13:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former? 

message: I did the later because it goes against WP:NPOV we should let the reader decide if he is infamous. I removed the conversions to the US dollar because it goes against WP:CSB and presents the article as US-Centric. 
You should not recite currency amounts from source material. It is not US centrist. Also the US dollar is present in many financial markets, it value is likely to be understood by a large audience because of this.
:The POV words "infamous" and "famous" have no place in Wikipedia articles.  A subject is either notable or it isn't, and articles about non-notable subjects go up for AfD. Robert K S (talk) 06:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Infamous" is a legal term; in some jurisdictions, certain types of crimes are called infamous crimes and carry additional punishment or disabilities. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 06:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've restored most of the US dollar notation because the majority of sources cited (which are in English by necessity) use the $ figure, because it's important to avoid jumping from one to another without conversions in the same article space, and because self-conversions just become more confused in the long haul with currency fluctuations.  The subject is arguably "French centric", but this is the English encyclopedia, and the majority of English sources cited are written in terms of US currency.   Just as many refs noted cite euro and dollar together as euro alone.Professor marginalia (talk) 18:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's irrelevant if the sources give two currencies, it's France so the Euro should be used unless the transactions he was doing was done in a different currency. Just because the sources don't present a worldwide view doesn't mean the article shouldn't I don't know what you mean by avoiding jumping from one to the other and self conversions become confusing but I'm sure that British readers would say the same thing of the article as is and want an exchange rate with the British pound. Last I checked, Britain is an English speaking country however the language of the encyclopedia is irrelevant to currencies. Also, when an article quotes an exchange rate they are quoting it at the time they are writing the article which is most likely a different exchange rate when the trader made his transaction which makes it even more irrelevant. I say we remove the conversions to US dollar and use Euro unless the transactions were done in a different currency. This is in order to present a worldwide view. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Pocopocopocopoco.An encyclopedia lasts longer than a newspaper, and exchange rates fluctuate.217.43.226.218 (talk) 09:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of cross-rates and removal of describing him as infamous

message: According to some sources (the Times being one) Kerviel is being percieved as a hero by a significant number of people. Is it worth mentioning this?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.7.120 (talk) 17:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, his popularity in France is quite interesting, if someone wants to dig up the sources it is a worthy addition, otherwise I'll do it later. Joshdboz (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hero? 

message: He has been considered a hacker by several sources. Since he hacked the inner controls to manage such amount of assets. Some internet communities thought that he did it because of he wanted to show that it could be done, therefore if the system can be hited by a single person, what could be done by thousands? The last individual who did that broke down a historical bank, maybe Jêromé is the Hurricane's butterfly who break down this system? That creates a hacker mith. Doubts about the current finantial system are going on.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.97.224.11 (talk) 05:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hacker? 

message: I've removed the section, and concur with an earlier commenter that this subject is tricky enough to deal with in an encyclopedic fashion, but coatracking what's described in the reports as a "coincidental" episode with a brother is going too far.  The brother's story is un-noteworthy except because of who his brother is-Jérôme.  It's based on a statement made by a previous employer (and those are always reliable, right?), and nothing further apparently became of it.  The reports consistently say the two cases are not related.  So in the interests of caution with the BLP, the chapter about the brother has come nowhere near the threshold of what's typically expected in alleging scandals against private individuals at wikipedia.  It may at some point, but at this early juncture, not so at all.  Professor marginalia (talk) 19:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree -- Y not be working? 19:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The 3 articles in respected UK papers (not including French papers and this in the FT) is not trivial coverage, though I agree that we shouldn't add undue weight.  I would suggest a single sentence about his brother under Early Life and right after the description of his wife and parents - his brother is relevant in that they are related and Jerome has moved in with his brother after the allegations broke.  No need to include the "irregularities" info unless it is further substantiated. Joshdboz (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Olivier

message: Where is Jerome Kerviel now? Has he been released from jail? Will he have to find another career? Amorwikipedia (talk) 05:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What now?

message: So after reading a bit more about this trader, I'm not as convinced as I was before that he does not qualify as notable per WP:BLP1E.  However, as noted in the discussion above I've taken the liberty of splitting off some of the material to January 2008 Société Générale trading loss incident per the suggestion that merging/redirection/deletions/etc. can be done later (if they are necessary at all).
The article has stood for a few days and gotten a handful of edits, so I'd like to complete the split by cutting down some of the material on the event in this copy in order to reduce redundancy.  I think we can all agree that information on the event should not be contained solely within the biographical article of the individual who is accused of causing it, and there's enough material on Jerome in this article now that this edit wouldn't result in a "gutting" of the article.  If I do this,  I plan on leaving in a summary of the event and using the  template to link the two.
Given that the issue of how best to classify and present the information in this article has proven contentious, rather than be bold and go ahead with the reduction, I thought it best to bring it to the talk page first to see if there are any strong objections. --jonny-mt 02:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since it's unlikely any reader will even find the article without a prominent WL in this article or Société Générale to send them to it, what purpose is served?  Nobody will know to enter "January 2008 Société Générale trading loss incident" as a search term. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split of material to [[January 2008 Société Générale trading loss incident]] 

message: Can anyone verify what his father's occupation was? Sources appear to agree on his mother's job (retired hairdresser), but are conflicting as to Charles Kerviel's line of work:
"blacksmith" - The Daily Telegraph
"builder" - also The Daily Telegraph
"teacher" - CNBC (according to local mayor)
"blacksmith turned metalwork teacher" - The Guardian
Java13690 (talk) 17:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kerviel's father 

message: There is an anomaly in the allegations section, one of the values is written in US dollars...can someone do a rough conversion, or find a source that provides a figure in euros? Yohan euan o4 (talk) 00:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Uniform currency

message: Kerviel comes from the same hometown as my grandmother. I have cousins who live there and they know him and his family quite well. They are 100% Breton (as their last name clearly indicates). The mother worked in a hair salon, while the father -- now deceased -- worked first as a blacksmith and later on as a vocational teacher. As the overwhelming majority of Bretons, his family is Roman Catholic. He was baptized, he has done both of his communions and his confirmation at the local church. As a child and teenager, he was as "normal" as you could imagine. Same life, same hobbies as the other kids have in that rural Celtic area of France. He was not a genius in school, but over average. There is truly nothing mysterious about him. As disappointing as this will seem to US citizens and UK subjects who harbor a very peculiar taste for pseudo-heros and mysterious tales, this guy's childhood and social life are as classical as they come. If it weren't for his amazing contribution to the mirky world of finance, his name would have never reached the medias headlines.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.93.5 (talk) 20:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few pieces of basic info 

message: While Id love to be a parisian paparazzi for a weekend, it might not be worth the plane ticket.  Might someone be able to get a photo we can use for him?  Mystache (talk) 22:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  GFDL photo 

message: A recent article in the London Times (January 23, 2009) states that Kerviel made large sums of money on the day of the 7/7 "attack". I think this fact is worth working into the article. 
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5568518.ece
"It was a day of carnage that left 56 people dead and a dark shadow for ever cast over the history of London. But for Jérôme Kerviel, the French rogue trader, 7/7 was the jackpot."
“The best trading day in the history of Société Générale was September 11, 2001,” he said. “At least, that’s what one of my managers told me. It seems that profits were colossal that day.“I had a similar experience during the London attacks in July 2005.”  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.212.49 (talk) 03:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks 

message: The three years is not consistent with the five years as maximum sentence.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.139.189.240 (talk) 13:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Two years seem to have been suspended.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.30.71.244 (talk) 16:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 or 5? 

message: The article bears a number of sources to sow doubt on the claims by SocGen, yet little to credibly support the charges against Kerviel. Now that he has been convicted I sort of feel that something must be missing. Have we adequately presented the prosecution's case against Kerviel? Also, as the judgement is analysed and commented upon we should present this with the aim of making it understandable to the reader why all the skeptical views referenced in the article were not deemed correct (or sufficiently important) by the court. __meco (talk) 06:36, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I too think the article is a bit overly sympathetic to Kerival. Kerival's defense was that he was not properly supervised.  I interpret the conviction as the court saying, "so what if you weren't supervised, you still committed major crimes." By wp:blp we have to present Kerival's side and have to be careful when we say he's a criminal, but the policy is more lenient once the guy has been convicted. Appeals of course are ongoing, but they always are in any controversial crime and we can't read our WP:Crystal Ball and assume that they will be successful. Smallbones (talk) 12:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed. Kerviel's positions (more than 50 billion $) were unprecedented. If you look at the sources of this articles with a neutral point of view, I think that you can hardly pretend that his behavior was common at SocGen. IMO the introduction, in this respect, is not neutral. Added NPOV tag. Lerichard (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 15:30, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unbalanced article? 

message: 82.66.86.45 (talk) 18:17, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "In March 2014, a French high court upheld Kerviel's prison sentence but ruled he would not have to repay €4.9bn.[35]".  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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