Talk:Drum and bass/Archive2

message: What is going on here? 
By creating this element outside of the rave culture, and the advancement of internet technology, drum and bass spread quickly in the United States, with an appeal not only to youths against authority, but to the working class person who wanted to enjoy themselves in a more controlled environment.
I had no idea that DnB was fighting a class war for us in the United States. I think this is bogus - what is a controlled environment anyway, as vs a riot? I would also challenge it's appeal to working class in the states, even in DnB capitals. Objections to an edit?
--Phatmattbaker 00:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to your edit proposal for that edit.  My own personal experience with DnB/Jungle was that of it being an offshoot of the early 1990s Rave Culture as an evolving genre. This genre was a "love child" result of the fusion from the slower House music loopy construct with peppering from the "hardcore" styles, paired with sped up hip hop breakbeats, and of course the James Brown "Funky Drummer" mashed up loop. Honorable mention of the "Amen" and "Apache" rhythm styles, both being variations of that James Brown "Funky Drummer" sampling. And of course, the iconic "baby voice" sound sample being dropped in for vigorous excitement. In NYC we were treated by the likes of great music performances such as 1.8.7 (Jordana), Soul Slinger, DB, and On-E (later part of DeeLite).  In terms of cultural identity, at least from my first hand, eye witness experience, it consisted of a subgroup from the Raver Youth counter-culture, and certainly attracted the more grimy, street savvy, hardcore dancer types.  Many of us donned our long dreadlocks to mark our membership. 2603:7000:AF3E:5300:14E1:C320:F19C:6A4 (talk) 04:00, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: North American Beginnings

message: I added Minneapolis to "North American Beginnings". I am not going to question some of the other cities inclusions, but Minneapolis/St. Paul was home to the Jungle Vibe Collective, one of the largest jungle dj/mc/promotional crews in North American in the late 90's. We were throwing 1500 person ALL jungle parties when other major cities didn't even have a handful of people repping the music. We were the first in the US to bring MANY UK Djs and MCs to the US, such as Skibadee (97), Randall (98), SS and Mental Power(96) and so on, not to mention a plethora of touring UK performers. We also were the first to have a self-produced piece about the American jungle scene on MTV News Unfiltered(97). If you don't know you weren't there, but that's no excuse for leaving it out.DJ Easyrider 18:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Late 90s was not the north american beginnings. Unless you're talking about 93-94 era, it does not qualify. Themindset 16:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Chill out. I wasn't around in minneapolis in the mid-90s, no. Themindset 18:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minneapolis needs to be added to "North American Beginnings". 

message: I agree with whoever reverted the page to the older version including the pre-jungle history - it is relevant to the evolution of the music. Take, for example, "bebop" - even though this is a New York-based style of music, it has its roots in music from New Orleans, so a brief mention of that is perfectly valid. Likewise, "jungle" came from England, but it was the first such UK-based style of music and had, as direct predecessors, those US styles listed. --AlexandertheP 21:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, sure, but... I think we can all maintain a civil tone on here, too. Let's get along! --AlexandertheP 18:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevance of Pre-Jungle History 

message: 'themindset' chose to remove my section on pre jungle / drum & bass notables. I am British, and recognize the music as British, but am aiming to add some vital background detail to the music, that is 100% accurate and relevant. It is called PRE drum & bass for this precise reason.
Please do not remove this section again.
Erm, this guy has removed my piece again, and demonstrated his ignorance in his reply to me. I don't kno how to reply to PM on here but this guy is just stupid, and robbing this article of KEY points. 
sorry..... but gro a brain bro, Please don't chat about shit you are clearly unqualified to speak about.
digest
:I'm sorry, but using insults is not constructive behaviour. Also, when you are reverting my edits you are also reverting small grammatical edits I made at the bottom. Please help reduce this article to its important features. Themindset 16:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So then let's create the article History of drum and bass. Literally just click on that link and create the article! And we'll link to it from here. I will help you and defer to you, happily. I just want to make the main drum and bass article more accessible to the uninitiated... I'm sure you want to expose DnB to new people to. One love. Themindset 20:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: I had noticed that in some older discussions before I was on here, people had suggested separating some of the early "jungle" information into it's own article, much as there's a history of hip hop article distinctly apportioned from the hip hop piece.
Maybe this currently-debated bit about pre-jungle would benefit from something like this? I think it's pretty valid information... the first time I read the article, I was pleased to find it there. It sort of... coalesced... some ideas that I had had an inkling of myself, and as far as I can tell, is pretty accurate. Is the issue that it wasn't written in enough of an encyclopedaic tone, and therefore might mess up the "good article" nomination?
Anyway, this is my suggestion for a compromise - I think that otherwise, Digest may keep adding it, and mindset keep removing it... and what fun is that?
Just some thoughts.--AlexandertheP 18:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But, again, let's all stay cool... :)  --AlexandertheP 18:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that's an excellent suggestion. Please WP:Be bold and initiate these changes, I encourage you to perhaps rewrite those bits with more of an encyclopedic tone when you transfer them to the History of drum and bass article. Themindset 20:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perhaps...? 

message: I've added references as far as I can. Please add additional ones. You might not agree with the content of the references but don't delete them, add your own.
I've added pics. More will be added when I get the copyright owners to agree.
I've restructured the article without deleting any elements. I hope it read betters. The reference to North American beginnings broke the flow of the article so it was moved. Somebody please work on the North American fragment, the bit about working class rave environment is embarassing. --Dustek 11:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pics, references, clean up 

message: The House music article has an excellent list of influences. Could somebody put together a similar list for jungle/dnb? --Dustek 12:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Influences

message: I've added images, including some new ones that I uploaded to Wikicommons. If you don't like the layout of the images, move them around, I'm not entirely happy with their positioning. Please don't delete them. --Dustek 08:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: I've spent a massive amount of time on this article but it still needs further work.
As far as content is concerned, I think this article is just about finished - unless there is a massive mistake or omission that needs correcting. Note that a lack of mention of your favourite producer is not a massive omission. Please note that I have not been deleting material but have been adding or moving it. Show respect to the content I've added, please.
More references would be useful as well as the reference list containing direct quotes from the articles I've linked, where appropriate.
More musical samples would be useful to demonstrate dnb's variety and evolution.
A video reference to a rave would be useful to demonstrate dnb context.
In the text, dnb, drum & bass, drum and bass, drum n bass should be replaced by "drum and bass" or "drum & bass" for consistency.
Grammar and spelling needs to be improved in some parts of the text.
Sound samples and images could be moved to present the page better.
Some lists should be alphabetically ordered (countries, influenced artists, etc).
--Dustek 10:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further work

message: My inclusion of ragga jungle as a subgenre of drum and bass will probably end up with my being called various names.  However note that I have added "arguably". The list of who could be called ragga jungle artists clearly overlaps with drum and bass artists.  There is no clear distinction between ragga jungle and ragga tinged drum and bass or the old school jungle sound - apart from production techniques and minor differences in beats and construction. If there is no clear distinction, I believe that inclusion or exclusion is arguable. I agree techstep is clearly different from ragga jungle but what about ragga tinged jump up or dubwise? Those styles are the same drum and bass as techstep, so why isn't ragga jungle. 
Breakcore and raggacore are NOT subgenres of drum and bass in my opinion but they do share important characteristics. I think they could be omitted off the list.
 
--Dustek 11:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ragga jungle

message: The links in the introduction were making the introduction unreadable (too much hyperlinked text). All relevant links appear further in the text. I have retained the "electronic dance music" link to make it clear that drum & bass belongs to this general wikipedia category. --Dustek 10:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of links in intro

message: After removing the links in the intro section, I decided to go through the article removing repetitive (exception where necessary for illustrative purposes), dead (red) and superfluous (i.e. country) links. Some examples of what I have removed:
LTJ Bukem was wikilinked 6 times! 
Hip-hop does not need to be wikilinked except in the influences link.
The US does not need a wikilink in this article.
IF you think an item is worthy of a wiki link, please write at least a stub article before adding the link. There were many glaring red links, some of them shameful. Ray Keith deserves at least a stub.
--Dustek 10:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: removing dead (red) links.... many glaring red links, some of them shameful - that's why I add them / dont remove them - hoping to provoke people into thinking "wtf, no article on that, I must fix that up..." ;) Stevekeiretsu 19:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think legibility is more important than links that go nowhere. If somebody has something to say about a matter, then they should write at least a stub before adding a link. --Dustek 09:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikilinks

message: Have sorted out some lists into alphabetical order. --Dustek 10:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alphabetical order

message: I spent a lot of time gathering and adding references to this article.  Would somebody please go through the reference list and add titles (i.e. "Knowledge Magazine interview with Photek" and short quotes where appropriate?  Perhaps the quotes are unnecessary because the article is already quite long. Anyway, somebody please help me out. The thought of going through those 70 articles for the nth time depresses me.
--Dustek 08:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Note that 217.153.176.154 is Dustek, because I've been noting some reverts to my previous work for various reasons.  --Dustek 19:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IP

message: I've been comparing the quality of this article with others and I think drum and bass finely has the article it deserves.
Doubtless many will find offense at their favourite artist not being mentioned, others will feel that their hated clownstep artists are featured. Some will question the name of their city of residence being left of the list. Not everybody can be happy at the same time.
This is an encyclopedic entry but it is not an encyclopedia of drum and bass. Somebody should write one, one day but for now, I think this wiki page is one of the best sources about dnb on the net.
--Dustek 13:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quality

message: This article has been put on hold pending one major change: the references section. References should conform to the examples given in WP:CITE. Specifically, it is difficult to evaluate the references section as a whole when every reference has the same title as every other reference. The references should summarize the citation in the title. For example, in the first citation title = "Web link reference" is more usable as title = "We are I.E. (single) listing" Fix that, and I think you look pretty good. I recognize that you have identified this as an issue for future work, but this really needs to be fixed before this can be put on the GA list. Archer904 13:22, 22 September 2006 (PST)
:I am currently fixing this, thank you for bringing it to our attention. Themindset 21:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After much work, this has all been fixed. Themindset 00:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the work, I didn't feel like going through all those articles again. --Dustek 07:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation

message: I'm fine with limiting the links to DOA and D&B Arena (+discogs) but I don't like the "premiere" or "most active".
"Premiere" is a bit POV and unverifiable as it a quality valuation. Both sites would argue that they are "premiere".  I would prefer them being labelled as the two major drum and bass sites. DOA is verifiably busier and has more members than D&B Arena but that is not something that I would insist on being mentioned. Having said that, the site I spend most time on is neither, which I don't mind. --Dustek 10:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine then, I always perceived DBA as being the main site, whereas DOA was just a really active forum... Themindset 16:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, changed. Pls let me know if the new wording is acceptable. Themindset 17:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree that just calling them both "major" is best, as any attempt to say which is #1 is destined to nothing but silly squabbles.  DOA is more than the forum, though, even if the forum is the busiest part of it.  It has news, reviews, interviews, audio, event photos and a shop, so I suppose you could call them both portals.  (Much as I hate the word.)  Stevekeiretsu 21:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: I don't like the replacement of the country list with continental references. You might as well write "around the world" but that wouldn't be true. Drum and bass is not generally spread around the world nor is it spread across continents. It has strong scenes in certain countries and this list is quite short but doesn't really exist in many others (dnb in Italy, Spain, Burma, Nigeria... etc?). Dnb is not regional nor widespread but concentrated in places around the world. Some country scenes are rightfully proud of their strong d&b traditions. Sao Paolo really is a great dnb city. Lodz in Poland is Central Europe's capital of dnb. Japan has a strong underground dnb movement. Etc... etc... This is of encyclopedic interest IMO. --Dustek 21:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Dustek, I didn't mean to offend you. I'm just trying to cut down the article a little bit. Right now the article is at 79KB, and I'm trying to bring it down a bit. We cannot consult about every change before making them, so if you disagree with a change I make simply revert and bring it here. Note that FAC criteria says that anything over 50KB tends to be too much, so we should be looking at ways to reduce the size (perhaps splitting the section into a seperate article, as you suggested, is the way to go here). Themindset 19:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Countries

message: (By the way, nice work guys, looking good.)
On the matter of the first jungle / d&b tune - I recently remembered reading a magazine article years ago which referred to 'We Are I.E.' as having been recorded in 1989. I then re-read a Lennie De Ice quote on an old compilation where he stated that he recorded the tune in 1988, prior to its 1991 release. This would make it older than 'Radio Babylon', 'Wickedest Sound' etc etc.
Just wondering if anyone can verify this any further either way?
--digest 6 October 06 (UTC)
If you can find the reference, then we can add the claim. Every source I've read says 1991 for "We Are I.E.". Doesn't really matter, its still one of the very first. --Dustek 15:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First D&B tune?

message: I don't think Dj Hype has to be quoted as saying "fucking" for this article (and I am the one who put this quote in here). Doesn't add anything to the content (as compared to him saying "drum and bass is fucking jungle" which would be adding emphasis). --Dustek 20:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Profanity

message: A list of things that need to be done before applying for FAC:
#Proofread the article. Spellcheck, fact repition, coherency, etc.
#Reduce the size (and perhaps split large sections off into seperate articles). Current size of the article is 79KB, FAC usually wants no longer than 50KB.
#Get at least some hard (read:book) references. These are few and far between, but there's at least one book out there on DnB.
#Please add more here...
Somebody else
1) I'm going to be pretty busy for the next month but I could put in some work.
2) Size = the history section could be split off HOWEVER this needs discussion. Please nobody remove this section without discussing and possibly voting. 
3) Book references = I've got a copy of All Crews but it has been loaned out. Please somebody find quotes and put them in references.
The work needed to get the article to featured status will probably be less than that required to get it to Good status, editing and proof-reading being, IMHO, the most important aspects.
--Dustek 13:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From my understanding, they are very picky over at WP:FAC, so it may be more work than we think. But I'm up for it, I'm going to try and find a copy of All Crews tonight. Themindset 17:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Article Candidate? 

message: 1) Found this plagiarism of a paragraph that I wrote.
"In spite of its specific characteristics which would appear to limit its variety, drum and bass is a very varied musical style, ranging from laid back jazzy tracks like Roni Size's "Brown Paper Bag" to radio friendly dance track's like Shy FX's "Shake Ur Body" to ragga influenced rude bwoy tracks like Chase & Status' "2 Tone Sound" to atmospheric and moody tracks like 4 Hero's "Mr Kirk's Nightmare" to extremely fast, forbidding & aggressive techstep tracks like Technical Itch's "Stealth". This is only a sample of its variety, which could be compared to that of jazz."
http://toronto.craigslist.org/eve/214927846.html  No GPL mention.
2) Does anybody know if this article is earlier or later to the appropriate fragments in Wiki http://uploud.com/history14.htm? 
In particular note the fragment that Themindset deleted from Wiki but appears in the article: "There are many views of what constitutes "real" drum and bass as it has many scenes and styles within it, from heavy pounding bass lines to liquid funk and downright 'chilled out' elevator music. It has been compared with jazz where the listener can get very different sounding music all coming under the same music genre, because like drum and bass, it is more of an approach, or a tradition, than a style. Drum and bass, however, progresses at a rapid pace, tunes sounding old and of dated style after only a few years."
Actually I really like that paragraph, not mine. 
Here are some references (apart from the above article)
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=18764
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E3DA1538F936A25752C1A961958260
As far as variety is concerned - reference can simply be made to the subgenre list. It must result from the subgenre list that drum and bass is a varied musical style.
I'd like the paragraph undeleted OR if it is copied from an earlier article, rewritten.
--Dustek 13:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it as it didn't fit with the paragraph from the lead. I really think we need to be more collaborative. Please try and reincorporate it yourself in a form that flows with the prose around it. Themindset 17:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, I understand which paragraph you liked, I returned it. I hope you realize that right now we are the only two active non-anon editors, and that we should be-bold in making changes, and don't be afraid of reverting any of my changes you don't approve of (I won't take it personally). So the process should be: bold change (and if you disagree:), revert, discuss. We shouldn't have to discuss every change before it's made, (aside from truely major changes like the DnB history article you speak of). Themindset 17:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like deletion without discussion. Addition without discussion I like. --Dustek 08:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Plagiarism and deletion of paragraph

message: I don't like them, mostly because their presence on youtube is a violation of copyright law. Any media used on wikipedia should be present in the Wiki commons or at least otherwise legal. --Dustek 11:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linked vids 

message: I've removed this section as it will lead to an uncontrollable list, one that we were quite right in removing some time ago. Themindset 18:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Internet Radio links 

message: Somebody tried to hack my wikipedia account yesterday. Probably in connection with my edits here. --Dustek 09:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Junglist hacking

message: Could somebody clean up the web references access dates so that they are all in the same format. Thanks. --Dustek 16:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean up on web references dates

message: This article seems to be written as if it is taken for grated that drum and bass is the best thing that ever happened to music, I have already corrected several ridiculous comments such as one claming that drum and bass has particularly fine sonic qualities that cannot be reproduced on home equipment. (This of course is rubbish and assumes that no one in the world has a sub woofer or a volume knob that goes above 90dB). 
This sort of article is what brings wikipedia down, it is obviously written by fans of the genre who have little to no knowledge of the wider world of music or its technology, and as such ready more like propaganda than an encyclopaedia. I move that this article be removed for serious revision by an unbiased party. [End of statement]
:The part you mention quite clearly referred to the frequency response, not "fine sonic quality".  It's easy to mock something as ridiculous when you completely reword it in a ridiculous way.  Perhaps you can find the average consumer hi-fi, ghettoblaster or ipod headphones which produce a decent 30hz subbass?  Oh wait - they don't.  Hence the article's original, correct, and not biased or propagandist, comment. Stevekeiretsu 19:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  bias