Talk:Nordic race/Archive 3

message: The historical portrayal in this article is with no doubt very incomplete. To add some information I will copy an excerpt of William McDougall's "The Group Mind," 1920;
Page 317:
:"The Gauls were a mixed people of whom the minority, constituting the nobility, were of the tall, fair, long-headed Nordic race; while the majority, the mass of the common people, were of the short, dark, round-headed race. And these, as the numerous observations of the anthropologists show, constitute to-day the bulk of the population, except in Normandy and the extreme north-east of France.
:The Teutons or Germans of Caesar and Tacitus, on the other hand, were of the fair Nordic race; and the Anglo-Saxons who overran Britain, together with the Danes and Normans, who, with the Saxons, formed the principal ancestral stock of the English, were of this same Nordic race, or Northmen, as we may call them.
:Now, it might seem useless to attempt to arrive at any conclusions as to the influences that shaped these races in prehistoric times. But an attempt has been made by one of the schools of French sociologists, which, in spite of its speculative character, seems to be worthy of attention. This is the school of "La Science Sociale," founded seventy years ago by Frederic le Play and more recently led by Ed. Demolins and H. de Tourville. Aided by a number of ardent disciples, they have made a special study of the influence of physical environment in determining occupations and social organisation, and in moulding indirectly through these the mental qualities of peoples. That is their great principle. ...
Page 318:
: And, of all the conclusions of the Le Play school, their account of the origin of the distinctive characters of the Northmen is one of the most striking and satisfactory; ...
Page 327
:The modern Frenchman, says Demolins, would regard as the height of folly the enterprises of the old Northmen, who, mounted on their frail ships, quitted each spring the coast of Scandinavia, launched out on the wild sea, landed, a mere handful of men, on the coasts of Germany, Britain, or Gaul, and there with their swords carved out domains and made new homesteads. It was thus that the ancestors of Tancred had acquired the manor of Hauteville, and it was thus that his sons conquered Italy and Sicily.
:It was in a very similar way that, in a later age, men of the same breed carried to the new world the same individualistic institutions and the same spirit of independence, and in doing so, laid the foundations of the immense vigour and prosperity of the American people."
So, to give a more complete account of the evolution of the "Nordic race" concept, the contributions of at least the following people should be included:
:Pierre Guillaume Fréderic le Play (1806-1882)
:Henri de Tourville (1842-1903)
:Edmond Demolins (1852-1907)
The fact that the term Nordic "came into vogue rather late" like the article states leaves out a big part of the story - whatever this race was called – the idea of such a race took a rather elaborate shape much earlier. So at its present state this Wikipedia-article sheds a wrong light. 217.236.226.181 19:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apropos historical portrayal of the concept 

message: I am proposing that Nordic race be merged into this article. Both articles contain basically the same thing and both fit perfectly together. I would have simply merged them myself but I wanted some input before doing so. The Nordic race article says basically the same thing as this one and it doesn't look like it's going to do much growing in the future. It should be condensed and put into a subsection of this article, probably the top or next to the top. The Nordish race article should also be merged into this one as well for the exact same reasons. Wikidudeman (talk) 05:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I entirely agree. The Nordic race article is a very new ceation by user:Rokus01, though the page as a redirect has been there for years. See the discussion above in the section Nordic Theory is not the Nordic Race (RFC). I thought I would not object its creation, since there were very few other editors who expressed an interest in the subject, despite my RfC. Those who have seem to agree that it should not be :separate. Paul B 14:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But there is no anthropological concept of a Nordic race any more. It is an entirely historical concept. It was meaningful when models were being developed based on cranial morphology and mapped onto prehistorical population movements, but those models no longer have any currency. Paul B 21:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not a political statement. I fully accept that cranial morphology is still used in forensics, but in archaeology it has largely been replaced by genetics. Since DNA has been recoverable from ancient teeth, cranial morphology has become largely obsolete as a means to determine ancestry. The fact is that "Nordic race" means almost nothing these days. That does not, of course, mean that the distinctive morphology of Northern Europeans does not exist. Of course it does, and if the skeleton of a murder victim is found the police can use the classic cranial morphology models to determine "Nordic" origins. That's about it though. Paul B 23:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: You are the one making things up. Have you never heard of the disputes about the cephalic index? Can you claim that morphology proves the existence of a "nordic race"? The quotation is specifically about dental morphology, which is affected by specific environmental factors. DNA is increasingly being extracted from teeth    . It is used along with oxygen isotope analysis. Obviously, it's expensive, however, which limits usefulness. Paul B 02:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Rokus01, Nearly all of the reasons to merge a page fit this proposed merger. 1. There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject.  "Nordic Theory" and "Nordic race" are exactly the same subjects. Nordic theories revolve around the "Nordic race". There is actually no such thing as the "Nordic race" and the Nordic theories article is more encompassing, meaning that the Nordic race article should be merged into this one. 2. Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. This also fits this scenario. The Nordic race article is an archaic racial term which doesn't deserve it's own article. As a matter of a fact, I would support merging Alpine race and Mediterranean race all into one article possibly called "Historical concepts of Race" since most of the info in this Nordic theory article contains general information about historical concepts of race opposed to "Nordicism" in specifically.  Wikidudeman (talk) 14:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article doesn't just specifically deal with the use of this theory by fascists. I have no political agenda here. This proposed merger has nothing to do with politics. The Nordic theory article has numerous overlapping aspects with the Nordic race article and that's why it should be merged, There is no need for 2 separate articles. Combining and condensing all of the relevant into into a single article makes much more sense from a pragmatic standpoint. Wikidudeman (talk) 17:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I consider the initial and prime statement of Nordic theory, "Nordic theory (or Nordicism) is a theory of racial supremacy", incompatable to all other articles concerning race, including this one. Nordic theory is political and is relevant to fascism. Race should not be subject to political theories. Rokus01 20:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That could easily be changed. The fact is, If all of the corresponding information in the Nordic theory was removed so it didn't relate much to this current article we would be left with a stub. Wikidudeman (talk) 23:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposing merger 

message: If according to some all hinge on the perceived concept and validity of the word "race" and the "Nordic" denomination, why we don't we just introduce a clear lead circumscribing the "racial" definition and move the detailed concept-discussion to one single section to have it done with? Let's take it easy and please concentrate on NPOV. We have to restate our consensus on the concept of race versus the current anthropological value of different visible traits. Invalidity of the concept of race does not imply the invalidity of anthropological research, nor the cease of significant investigation departing from earlier observations. There is no use to transform this issue into a war and call each other names. To clarify my point of view I quote anthropologist Markku Niskanen:
If all of us agree this quote makes sense, I propose to accept that there is no such thing as a complete departure of certain anthropological observations, including rough geographical ("Nordic") distribution patterns conceived as traditional. Other modern reliable sources can be cited to suggest this information, is also significant to evolutionary assessments, like the Multiregionality hypothesis. I can't believe that people that show themselves so unforgivable when censorship of Nazi-POV is concerned, would proclaim censorship against the results of anthropological investigation, even though these investigations don't (nor shouldn't) seek the proof of the Nordic race concept. 
Please show yourself capable of good faith edits and discussion. Rokus01 (talk) 23:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is just another smokescreen - either you have sources that demonstrate widespread current use of the term, or you don't. Addhoc (talk) 00:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion on the anthropological point of view

message: I appreciate the efforts to work on the "Origin"-section (whatever that section is supposed to be), but I personally would approach the problem here step by step. If another editor disagrees about one sentence, you can't really expect to find and agreement on a whole section. Especially if the case is as clear as this; As I have just written on the Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts (and Rokus01 can expect that I  mention the issue there if he accuses me of conveying "Nazi POV"): "Usually there should not be an argument about whether it is appropriate to mention a known politician who has written a book on a topic WITH ONE SENTENCE in the article on the respective topic." I can not understand the objection to this by User:Rokus01. His argument doesn't make any sense. If any depiction of Nazi ideology would be considered selling Nazi ideology, then Wikipedia could obviously not have an article on Nazism, not to mention the articles on Mein Kampf and on The Myth of the Twentieth Century.
Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Extremist sources precisely says: "Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution", despite the attempt of Rokus01 to modify it. Secondary literature is not an extremist source. But we don't even need Bramwell as source. We could just say,"The Nazi minster R.W.Darré has written a book "the Peasantry as Live-Spring of the Nordic Race" and source this to a German library catalogue. Or is Rokus01 of the opinion that German library catalogues are put together by extremists? Zara1709 (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are wrong to suggest that the point of view your were trying to insert was not a Nazi point of view. The article was not designed to be a platform of Nazi-POV, especially since this particular nazi never was a significant authority on anthropology. I answered your alert here . Rokus01 (talk) 21:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Rokus01, on your talk page a WP:WQA clerk, User:Cheeser1, has warned you about this. Addhoc (talk) 00:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: On Darré, continued

message: This article should be moved back to "Nordic race". The current headline is a misnomer. Funkynusayri (talk) 07:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: this was an undiscussed move executed by a well known racialist editor. I have no idea why he is still allowed to edit. His edits are closer to vandalism than to "mere" WP:POINT these days.  dab (𒁳) 21:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A racialist is someone who considers humans to be separable into different races. The problem here is not that you are a racialist, Rokus01, but that you fail to see that (your) racialist POV is not the only POV and that there are  other POVs to consider (like that of the Nazi minister for food Richard Walther Darré, e.g.) Of course, insisting that all POVs are incorporated into an article  does not mean that one shares this POV, and regardless of what I, Dbachmann, or any other editor personally thinks about race, your inability to handle even the possibility of someone disagreeing with your views has disqualified you from working on this topic. If you, for whatever reason, would still like to discuss something here, you should consider a full apology for your allegations. Otherwise, please leave. Zara1709 (talk) 19:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

text: ahem, if you do not claim "Nordic populations" is synonymous with "Nordic race" then why did you feel compelled to move "Nordic race" to "Nordic populations"??   "Nordic populations" in the sense of Demographics of Scandinavia is perfectly fine, and if you are interested in the demographics of Scandinavia, feel free to create that article. dab (𒁳) 11:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: *Shouldn't the "Nordish race" be merged into this one as a sub-section? I know it has been discussed before, but that was in relation to the Nordic race article. Now when this article is about both the race and the affiliated supremacy theory, shouldn't the Nordish article be incorporated as well, as that article is pretty tiny anyway? Funkynusayri (talk) 13:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Without having taken a look at that topic in detail, I would say that is not connected enough. Nordic though in Germany and Nordicism in USA were, at that time, considered scientific. I don't think that the Nordish race stuff nowadays is. Zara1709 (talk) 20:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nordish merge 

message: the nordic-celtic type and the nordic-halstatt type could also have brown eyes.
i will insert this information into the text.
the most important thing of being a nordic type or not was the form of the head and the face.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.143.146 (talk) 18:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brown eyes 

message: No citation=no evidence.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.245.100 (talk) 03:09, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: IQ results

message: I realise this has been run into the ground in the 'discussion' above, but I still find myself wondering why Nordic Race has been merged with Nordicism. As a random passer-by, merging the two seems less-than-neutral. For example, if anyone were to merge Scientism into the article on Science - two articles that definately have a good deal of overlap as well - people would scream "Religious Fundamentalist POV" and revert instantly. As I understand it, a 'thing' and its '-ism' are two different subjects, and should be treated separately. (Tradition vs. Traditionalism; Morality vs. Moralism; Liberty vs. Liberalism; etc.) Could someone please give a lucid and succinct explanation for the merge without going into hysterics? Thanks. Aryaman (Enlist!) 14:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Scientism and Science are two entirely different things, whereas the theory of the very existence of the Nordic race always intertwined both the physical and supposed mental characteristics of the "race". If one is to narrate the history of these ideas it is important to show the link between the science and the isdeology, because the two can't be simply separated out. We have the same policy with other articles such as Mediterranean race for example. It's only when the articles become too extended that it becomes unwieldy to keep them merged that there is an argument for separation. If the concept of the Nordic race existed in modern science completely divorced from the ideological ideas of the 1880s-1940s, then the situation would be different. That's true of race concepts like "Caucasian", for example, that are still used (though disputed). Paul B (talk) 16:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be interested to know Talk:Nordish race justifies not merging on the grounds that Nordic race is legitimate and Nordish race is not. Personally, I think it should be merged into this article. --JWB (talk) 17:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

text: The fact that the concept of a 'Nordic Race' is no longer tenable in modern anthropological discourse should have no bearing on   the question as to whether it deserves its own article. 'Nordic Race' is clearly an antiquated term, and its article should say so. That 'Nordic Race' and 'Nordicism' are, in fact, separable, is advocated by the lead itself, which makes the difference between them explicit, and thus makes it all the more apparent that, while the article promises to discuss 'Nordic Race', it is actually discussing 'Nordicism' as an outgrowth of that concept. The 'Nordic Race' article should be entirely analogous in length and treatment to Alpine race, with this article being re-framed under 'Nordic Theory'. If not, then the only reasonable solution is to put the information from the article on all three of these 'types' back to where they actually belong: in a single article describing the whole theoretical framework and its academic and political reception. —Aryaman (Enlist!) 17:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I was not in favour of the recent name change, though I didn't feel strongly about it. Most of this article is about Nordicism and I think the best title would reflect that, but it doesn't really matter all that much. It's just that there's no point in having a separate stubby article on the Race concept as such if it contains no significant information that is not also here. That's pointless duplication that does nothing but remove ideas from their cultural context. It's also worth noting that Nordicism is not really an "outgrowth of the concept" of the nordic race. A good case can be made that the ideas that are central to 'Nordicism' actually helped to create the concept. If you read Vacher de Lapouge, the central concepts that make Nordicism are already present, but the definition of a specific Nordic race by anthropologists had yet to be made. Paul B (talk) 16:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can agree with you on not needing a stub. I was also reading up on the history of this article (particularly this bit), and I agree with much of what was said there. But I also see the potential merits in (re-)integrating the Alpine and Mediterranean information. Those articles are just as connected to this one as Nordic race and Nordicism are to each other, and in precisely the same ways. There is an unbalanced treatment in the status quo, and if splitting isn't an option, then merging would be the best way to remedy it, IMO. —Aryaman (Enlist!) 16:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the problem with merging the Alpines and Meds would be that logically we'd have to merge all the other supposed sub-races too (Dinaric race, Noric race, East Baltic race and whatever others there may be). We'd have to have a new name that reflected that and the article would really come to be about something altogether different ("Supposed European sub-races" or whatever), whereas Nordicism is a clear and historically significant concept, and is linked from many other articles. Paul B (talk) 17:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nordic Race vs. Nordicism