Talk:Norman language

message: This article needs revision and referencing, especially for the medieval period. Regional spelling differences at a time when French orthography had not consolidated hardly warrant classification as a language proper. Jouvencel 23:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Revision needed

message: Having Swedish as my first language, the "Modern Swedish" column seems off its rocker (to use an anglicism). "Böle" is a very old word, essentially only surviving in place names and rural dialects. "Greja" is 20th century slang that has made it's way into the Swedish proper. How is that relevant to the subject matter? "Skrida" does not mean "to skate", it means "to stride".  "Järnad" is an adjective form of the rather odd "järna", "to make ironclad"; this is not a proper word.  "Holma" is an 19th century fem. form of "holme", which is certainly not modern and was only ever used in dialect, since "holme" was masc. -- the following "holm" isn't a complete word and _only_ occurs in place names (eg Stockholm). More than 30 years of Swedish as my first language, and I have never heard "wicket" as a loan-word in Swedish.
It definitely isn't "modern Swedish" and at least that column should be removed, in my opinion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.237.142.7 (talk) 13:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to be the appropriate section to ask this, but I immediately wondered why Old East Norse and Swedish are used for the comparisons, rather than Old West Norse and modern Danish, since it was Denmark that as far as I understood the settlers from Nordic lands mostly came from.....did older versions of this page not have Danish and Old West Norse, in fact? I haven't looked at it in a while, was prepping to send someone the link re a discussion on European local languages.....112.209.51.156 (talk) 11:16, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Swedish

message: Work is currently underway on a test Wikipedia in Norman. Contributions and comments welcome. Man vyi 14:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Norman Wikipedia now up and running, and awaiting contributions! Man vyi 18:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norman Wikipedia 

message: It would be really nice to see a comparison of Insular and Continental dialects at some point.  The Jade Knight 23:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dialect Comparison 

message: It has been proposed that Languages of Oïl be renamed and moved to Langues d'Oïl. Comments and votes on Talk:Languages of Oïl, please, if you're interested. Man vyi 09:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move 

message: I've added an infobox, copying the family information from the one on French language. The number of speakers and the ISO codes aren't yet filled in -  I suspect there are no ISO codes, but there ought to be information on the number of speakers. If I've made any errors, please correct them. Hairy Dude 04:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly, I've searched and searched and cannot find accurate numbers for Norman speakership in France.  Numbers are available for Channel Island speakership, however.  The Jade Knight 06:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The French state permits no language questions in the census - there are really no reliable stats for regional languages in France (of course, whether a census question would give reliable figures is another matter...) Man vyi 07:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did notice that in a recent census or survey there was a question about Oïl langues (other than French).  However, it did not distinguish between which Oïl langues (and as such is of limited use).  The Jade Knight 08:43, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the ISO 639 codes. Ethnologue, the registering authority for ISO 639-3 is really not good on Oïl languages, and seems to let the codes for French cover all of them. In the meantime, roa is the ISO 639-2 code for any Romance language not covered by a more specific code. — Gareth Hughes 18:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: I note the Norman Wikipedia is at nrm: but there is no mention of this code in this article - from what is it derived? Should there be a link from the NRM TLA disamibg page? Thryduulf 14:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Archived discussion on Meta may provide some enlightenment. Man vyi 15:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although that discussion was interesting, it wasn't particularly enlightening regarding the choice of "nrm" over the other suggestion of "nor". Thryduulf 16:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Nor" is reserved for Norwegian (in terms of ISO codes); despite the fact that this is not currently being used by the Norwegian Wikipedias, someone felt it was best to find an entirely new code to use for the Norman wikipedia.  nrm may have been my suggestion; I do not entirely remember.  It has the advantage of working in all relevant languages/dialects, however (Norman/normand/Nouormand/normaund), where "nor" doesn't work with Jèrriais.  The Jade Knight 08:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nrm

message: *What the OED says about "mug" (which is what I meant to write instead of "catch" in my edit summary, sorry) is:
::Origin uncertain; app. related to Dutch mok mug (late 19th cent.), German regional (Low German) muck, German regional (Low German: East Friesland) mukke mug, Norwegian mugge open can or jug, Danish mugge, Swedish mugg mug, and also French regional moque, (Guernsey) mogue jug, cup, but the relationships between these words are unclear, and their further etymology is unknown.
:There's nothing there to indicate that the idea the word came from Norman French is preferable to any other source (fwiw, the Online Etymology Dictionary, Dictionary.com, and the American Heritage Dictionary all suggest or claim it comes from a Scandinavian language)
*I had removed "causeway" because only the "cause" part comes from Norman French; I didn't make that clear, though, and it's still correct to leave it in, so sorry about that
--Miskwito 03:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My edits reflect all this, and provide citation where available.  With a great many words of Scandinavian and langue d'oïl origin in English, it is difficult to tell exactly which language they come from.  In the case of "mug", the earliest attestation is from 1400 and spelled "mogge"—clearly not a Dutch or German borrowing, and the timing makes it highly unlikely that it is a Scandinavian borrowing.  The most reasonable explanation of the timing and spelling of the earliest forms of this word is that it comes from Norman.  The Jade Knight 04:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymologies

message: I have corrected the table with etymologies for some Norman words according to how the old normans actually spoke. They didn't speak Old West Norse anno 1300AD, but rather Viking age Old East Norse. Very similar languages, but definitely some crucial differences. // Jens Persson (213.67.64.22 21:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The old Normans spoke Old ''East'' Norse

message: I am going to remove the following from the article:
In Ireland, Norman remained strongest in the area of south-east Ireland where the Normans invaded in 1169. In particular a distinctive variety of "Norman French" remained alive in the barony of Forth and Bargy in Wexford until very recent times. 
I am from Wexford and I can say without doubt that Yola, as the extinct local dialect is known, was a variety of Middle English NOT French. There is even a glossary with examples of poetry and song in the Yola dialect which were collected by Jacob Poole, a Quaker preacher from the barony of Forth and republished with additions by Dr Diarmuid Ó Muirithe. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 16:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: new link to Yola:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_and_Bargy_dialect 194.174.73.33 (talk) 18:59, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: South East Ireland

message: Being new to wikipedia, I'm not sure of exactly the right way to contradict your editing of this article, but anyway;
I think you need to elaborate on your assertion that the Irish Folklore Commission do not possess recordings of French being spoken in Wexford. Do you work at or have access to the archives of said Commission? Or does simply being from Wexford equip you with this knowledge? Your assertion seems, as is, to rely on a further assertion that the Yola language must have been mistaken for French by the author of the original, removed article. Your argument appears approximately thus;"Yola is not French, Yola died out before tape recorders were invented, therefore there cannot be any recordings of French". Which is, literally, nonsense.
It is of little consequence, as I cannot remember the name of the program in question, but I remember seeing on the telly (in the UK) some years ago footage of an elderly Irish man singing a song in what was claimed to be Norman French. This does not mean I am convinced of late survivals of Norman French in Ireland. It does, however, give me cause to think it would be better to put the removed item back until there is even the slightest sliver of a good reason for removing it. Bhasmanath
:Welcome to Wikipedia, Bhasmanath!  Articles here are not written by individuals, but by everyone who's interested and thinks they can contribute something.  You're welcome to Be Bold and edit the article yourself to make it more accurate!  The very best thing you can do would be to find citations/references which back up your claims and include them with your changes, but if you feel certain that something should or should not be in the article, you can always change it and then see if someone else objects.  The Jade Knight 04:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Forgive me

message: Why isn't Norman considered a French dialect? I've read some sources that regard it as a dialect of French and some others that don't. For which reasons does Wikipedia consider it a separate language? Aaker 16:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a language of France, for a start - the French state classes it as a separate language from French (without permitting it any official status though). Have a read of the Oïl languages article for more on the classification and division of the family. Man vyi 19:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd say very similar. At least the written languages. Aaker (talk) 19:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The spoken form is somewhat less similar, but still similar.  Vocabulary is highly similar (at least 70-90% or more words are cognates with French, and a great many of them nearly identical), though many cognates contain different shades of meaning.  Grammar is very similar, but there are crucial differences, among which is the existance of a different tense system than that found in French.  Idioms are generally totally different from French.  The Orthography varies from being extremely similar to French (Jèrriais) to being moderately similar (Continental Norman) to being totally different (Sercquiais).  The Jade Knight (talk) 23:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Merci pour la clarification! Aaker (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

text: So Swedish and Danish are just dialects of the same language?  Ditto Urdu and Hindi? 63.224.229.160 (talk) 00:02, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Written Jèrriais is artificially close to French and largely intelligible to French speakers.  I believe (though I am not particularly qualified to make this statement) that the spoken forms are not mutually intelligible (and even though I am fluent in French and have studied written Norman extensively, I still have difficulty understanding the spoken [or sung] form!).  That said, virtually all Norman speakers understand French (certainly on the Continent; I am unsure to what degree this is the case in the Isles), but French is an official language at all locations where Norman is spoken, and this may be the primary reason for this comprehension.  The Jade Knight (talk) 08:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If I've understood it correctly, all langues d'oïl were considered varieties of the same language (Vulgar Latin => Old French => langues d'oïl) until Standard French became universally spoken. The reason why Danish and Swedish are considered different languages is more political than linguistic, the same goes for Hindi/Urdu and Serbian/Bosnian/Croatian, Catalan/Valencian and many others. The differences between Danish and Swedish are however much bigger than many people think, most Swedes and Danes have severe difficulties understanding each other, pronunciation is very different and grammar and orthography are quite different (unfortunately IMHO!). Aaker (talk) 18:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  French Dialect 

message: Usually in French dalles is flagstone or paving stone; other meanings given in French wiki vary quite a bit, but none jibe with a meaning common in western North America - a particulary type of river rapids.  It's that meaning of the homonym I"m wondering if it might not come from the Danish input into Normand; usually quebecois/canadien is associated with Brittany, "but"....anyway please see this discussion] on Talk:Dalles where I raise the possiblility - just a guess - that the etymology is via Norman French, from Danish/Norwegian dal (valley), which in certain cases is dale - vs the OED's intimation that the flag/pavingstone meaning is a loanword into French from Ger. diele.  Or is there a Latin root in any of these cases?  Anyway, any etymologists or French-language historians hereabouts, please drop by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Skookum1#Dalles discussion] and give us your thoughts.Skookum1 (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Dalles]] - Norman origin?

message: Jersey and Guernsey are not part of the UK.  Should the nation bit in the infobox be fixed?  The Jade Knight (talk) 08:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Categorization 

message: Er....the ISO code given is wrong.  "nrm" represents Narom language - see .  As far as I know, Norman has not been assigned a separate code in ISO 693-3.  Widsith (talk) 13:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and created a  template for Norman. May not be official but it's the code Wiktionary uses. — LlywelynII 16:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language code 

message: I thought the Channel Islands were not part of the UK, but independent crown dependencies like the Isle of Man. The only thing the UK does for the islands is defence and other reserved matters depending on the issues involved e.g. Foreign affairs. I'm sure though a Crown Dependency is not the United Kingdom. Please look into it. 82.11.221.164 (talk) 08:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the problem has been reflecting use in the bailiwicks and the survival of fossilised usage in the UK. I've rehierarchised the list to clarify the situation. Man vyi (talk) 06:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Channel Islands: United Kingdom 

message: So how many people speak Norman nowadays?  Some figure needs to be in here. Funnyhat (talk) 21:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Magène claims 20,000 speakers of Continental Norman.  C'valyi d'Jade (talk) 05:46, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of speakers 

message: Grammatically, this sentence doesn't make sense to me. I'd change it, but I have no idea how close modern French and Norman actually are.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.191.35.75 (talk) 12:11, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be suppressed, because I do not think that somebody who accentuates French the Marseilles way would understand Norman French.Nortmannus (talk) 20:22, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: are you joking?
you try to read this==>
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2j46AAAAcAAJ&pg=PP9&dq=Le+roman+de+Rou+et+des+ducs+de+Normandie&hl=it&sa=X&ei=GaWjT9ebLc7E4gSnib2iCQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Le%20roman%20de%20Rou%20et%20des%20ducs%20de%20Normandie&f=false  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oidbeco (talk • contribs) 09:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: irrelevant, because Wace wrote in Old French, printed with some limited Norman influences.Nortmannus (talk) 10:50, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Most of part modern French and Norman is intercomprehensible" 

message: Perhaps Norman speakers brought the word Boucaner to Canada, but it's not a Norman word, see wikipedia entra on Buccaneer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccaneer#History.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.173.78.131 (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boucaner doesn't come from Norman, it come from Arawak 

message: Substituted at 01:29, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Although I am not an expert, I object to the Norman language being suddenly labelled as 'only' a dialect of the French language in some parts of this page.
This is contrary to other statements in the article itself, as well as in other articles referring to other regional languages or dialects in France, and seems to be the intensive work of one particular user who seems to have some sort of agenda, apparently without concertation with other users/authors/editors. 
The numerous recent changes in this and other pages are often poorly stated, and not always in line with the content into which they are landed, as well as showing what in my humble opinion is bias. [For the moment there is no way I want to start reversing out or rewriting/improving these numerous changes].
In addition it should be noted that the user in question, who was recently suspended for edit-warring,  seems to be unwilling to enter into discussion with others (not me, cf. previous para), preferring to 'be bold'. -- jw (talk) 12:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel this situation needs review, for this and other affected pages.  Fellow-wikipedians, what are your reactions to all these recent changes ? -- jw (talk) 12:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Languages and dialects fall along a continuum and there is no precise definition that unambiguously separates the two, but this editor has been pushing a POV on a lot of articles mentioning the Norman language to highlight its Frenchness and minimize the contribution of Old Norse. Agricolae (talk) 16:53, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

text: It is also inappropriate to push a POV that downplays the Norse influence on Norman, based on your own personal opinion. Also, you don't get to decide who is allowed to edit a Wikipedia page. Agricolae (talk) 18:56, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

text: Please refer to my response to objections/insinuations re. understanding of French and/or dialect continua, below -- jw (talk) 21:36, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Norman language' versus 'Norman French language' 

message: All of these lists need sources, or they look like WP:OR. Agricolae (talk) 16:49, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The linked sources, at least as far as I can see, do not contain a list of words in the Norman language that preserve Old French words lost in modern French.  This appears to be you. doing your own research. Agricolae (talk) 18:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

text: Again, you don't seem to understand how Wikipedia actually works.  Digging data out of a database is WP:Original Research, which is not permitted, and WP:CIRCULAR says that Wikipedia pages (whether in the same language or in another language) are not appropriate sources for other Wikipedia pages. Agricolae (talk) 19:08, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

text: I guess you didn't read it the first time:  Just because you find material on a Wikipedia page doesn't mean its presence there is appropriate, approved, or consistent with policy.  If the French page contains unreferenced Original Research, it shouldn't.  It would be a violation of policy there, just as it would be a violation of policy here.  There is no special dispensation granted to unreferenced information "found on another Wikipedia page" that somehow allows it to be absolved of Wikipedia's standards for WP:Verifiability. Agricolae (talk) 19:21, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: sorry but you're taking the whole thing personally. this is not original research. french wikipedia also approves that this is not original research. i have to stop talking to you unless you become rational again.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Berserk Kerberos (talk • contribs) 19:38, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't stop talking to me! I had been pleased to see that conversations are now happening on the Talk page rather than disrupting the combined and consensual work of numerous other editors on the page. Please continue this progress: you could state your intentions on the other Talk pages before you make future changes. In addition, if you prefer, since you have been intensively editing several pages, we could transfer this discussion about your methods to your own talk page.-- jw (talk) 21:36, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

text: Quant à la question de la compéhension de la langue française (posée ci-dessus) ou bien celle du concept de continuum linguistique, je vous remercie d'arrêter vos insinuations, et de revenir à un dialogue respectueux, comme il se doit.  Merci, ça suffit !  -- jw (talk) 21:36, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lists of words