Talk:Muscogee

message: In the Culture section of the article it states "Muscogee people continue to preserve chaya"... by this do you mean they continue to cultivate the chaya plant? "Chaya" has several meanings. If it is the plant, then It should instead say "Muscogee people continue to cultivate chaya", and the word chaya should be linked to the article about the plant, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaya_(plant)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.245.252 (talk) 05:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Chaya?

message: Isn't the flag featured in this article purely fictional? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.100.50.222 (talk • contribs) at 03:14 on 4 November 2005
:Not at all, like many other Native American nations, the Muscogee Nation has a flag. *Exeunt* Ganymead Dialogue? 16:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The flag shown is in fact that of the historical State of Muskogee, a short-lived Creek-Seminole state in Florida. See for example . -- Himasaram 15:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The flag seems like a poor choice for this article. Can we get the current Mvskoke (Creek) Nation flag instead? -- Rob C (Alarob) 22:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll go a step further: The flag is historically inappropriate and fails the reliable source test. Does it exist anywhere except on the Web? It's been challenged since November 2005 and I think it's time to remove it. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 16:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag

message: Shouldn't this be under "Muscogee" or "Muskogee"? I think most modern sources refer to them as such. Just a suggestion. *Exeunt* Ganymead Dialogue? 16:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Name change

message: Is there good evidence that Muskogee-Creek were indigenous to Tennessee as the article states?  User Tpkunesh made this addition, however, I have seen no source outside of his own testimony that this is the case. If this user is Tom Kunesh of Chattanooga, I have heard him speak. His stated aim is to see collections of Indian remains in academic research institutions returned under NAGPRA, and, according to him it is necessary to prove that the Muskogee-Creek were indigenous to Tennessee, and that the remains in custody of the University of Tennessee and other academic institutions are from people ancestral to the modern Muskogee Tribe, in order to accomplish this goal, which is of singular importance to him.  With due respect to research which may exist and support these claims, I feel that this addition was not made from a neutral point of view.  Unless strong evidence exists that the Creek's home territory included Tennessee, I feel that this section should be edited to reflect a better neutral POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.59.185.114 (talk) at 06:56, 26 July 2006
I can agree with this; I have seen nothing in the appx. 20 books on my tribe I have here to substantiate this, nor have I heard anything about it from my family (we were from the Eufaula, AL area originally--that is, before removal).   Now, getting into the entire issue of the ancestors of the modern Mvskoke tribe is a big old ill-defined can of worms.  I'd like to hear from someone else before I edit the page myself. -- Bruce H. McCosar 15:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Indigenous to Tennessee?

message: Archaeologists and ethnohistorians are almost universal in agreement that the Chiaha (Chehaw), Koasati (Coste, Coushatta), Tuskegee (Tasquiqui), Tali, and Kaskinampo (Casqui) were the "tribes" living along the Tennessee Valley at the time of the expeditions of de Soto, de Luna, and Pardo.  In fact, someone who knows the area can read the journals and sometimes know precisely where events took place.  Not always, but sometimes.  All those groups later made up part of the Upper Towns.  Another group of whom some joined the Muskogee confederacy were the Yuchi, or Chisca, who likewise lived in the Tennessee Valley, some even in the early 1700's, where many were slaughtered by the encroaching Cherokee (at Chestowee, Euchee Old Fields, and Hiwassie Island, for example).
All of these "tribes", and I use "tribes" in quotations because they identified more by town, later made up significant parts of the later Upper Towns.  Speaking of the Eufaula, they were originally from the area of Bartow County, Georgia, not far from the Itawa of the Etowah Mounds site.  The original home of the Coosa was the now-underwater site known as Coosawatie. At the time of first contact with the traders of Carolina colony, the westermost settlements of the Cherokee were the twin towns of Tellico and Chatuga.  Pressure from the European invasion pushed everyone west, decimated the towns and peoples, and caused the reduced native inhabitants to form confederacies, of which almost all the tribes today were in origin.
Most of the information I have comes from Raymond Evans and/or Nick Honercamp, two of the most highly respected in the field on matters regarding the pre-European Southeast.  Other comes from colonial maps and Indians of the Southeastern United States by John R. Swanton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.129.11.41 (talk) on 2 October 2006
:Since this has appeared again, could I trouble you to include references in your next edit?  I can see the sources above, but I can't turn them into actual, formal references without more info.  I'm only putting in the citations flag since this has been debated above. -- Bruce H. McCosar 01:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading this just now, I thought I remembered reading about the idea, and, looking through some books, found one that contains the idea that Creek people lived in east Tennessee in prehistoric and "protohistoric" times (protohistoric being the 150 years or so between the Spanish expeditions and later Europeans). In the book it is the origin of the Cherokees being discussed. The author writes about how some anthropologists hypothesize that the Cherokee had occupied the Tennessee Valley since Mississippian times, but others believe they were mainly living in western North Carolina at the time of the Spanish expeditions, and, "A few Cherokee speakers might have resided within the borders of Tennessee, these investigators say, but linguistic analysis and other data suggest that mid-sixteenth-century East Tennesseans were primarily non-Cherokees of Muskogean linguistic stock who were related to today's Creeks." It goes on a bit about the possible southward migration of Creeks / proto-Creeks. ..so I added this book as a source for the statement here: The early historic Creeks were probably descendants of the mound builders of the Mississippian culture along the Tennessee River in modern Tennessee and Alabama, and possibly related to the Utinahica of southern Georgia. I tried to reword this sentence to read better, because it seems a bit awkward and could be better put... but I can't quite think of how to do it right now. Pfly 05:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, thank you Pfly!  This is the thing that makes Wikipedia great.  -- Bruce H. McCosar 11:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to: Indigenous to Tennessee?

message: That is the question.  There has been an ongoing chain of ins-and-outs on Carrie Underwood.  Finally, User:Eqdoktor found a citation and posted it on the Carrie Underwood page.  I'm puzzled why this particular item gets attention when none of the other Famous Creek require a citation.  I get the strange feeling I've completely missed some point, that someone knows some bit of policy I don't.  At any rate, I cross-posted the citation from the Carrie Underwood page.  Am I right?  What's the deal here? -- Bruce H. McCosar 23:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I shouldn't be too bothered - You are totally correct and your not missing anything.  Assuming good faith, editors who question the entry can be pointed to the correct cites (and even check out the releveant discussion pages). Schoolyard vandalism on the other hand can just be speedily reverted and the editor warned with a simple user template warning.--Eqdoktor 17:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To Be Creek, or Not To Be Creek

message: For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all  infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 20:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "related groups" info removed from infobox 

message: What criteria should be used in describing "Creek people" of the present? For instance, my father's south Georgia family has an undocumented tradition of Creek ancestry, but I don't feel entitled to call myself Creek. Where do we draw the line in this article? Is everyone who claims to be Creek admitted to be Creek? -- Rob C. alias Alarob 16:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creek people? 

message: I'd like to see some documentation about the flag that is so prominently displayed in the info box. An unsigned comment referred to the flag, or similar ones, as standing in the entry to the Mound Building where the Creek national government has its offices. This video has a glimpse of red flags in the last scene (3:15). Can we do any better than this? And where did the evidence for these flags come from? Still waiting to learn. -- ℜob ℂ. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 20:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag, cont'd 

message: Since that's what they call themselves, it would be at the very least polite to move this entire article to one with that title. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 04:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved the page, fixed the redirects, and within the article changed "Creek" to "Muscogee". Chuck Hamilton (talk) 05:03, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggest move to Muscogee (Creek)

message: Revamping will continue later ... I will cease to see what other editors think of the contributions thus far. Rob (talk) 18:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I added back the 20th and 21st century famous Muscogee. Suzan Shown Harjo is hardly just an entertainer (she is entertaining, but...!). She wrote and helped pass the the 1978 American Indian Religious Freedom Act and the 1990 Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, has personally helped recover over 1 millions acres of land back to tribes, and is advising the current administration on Indian policy. Several of the people mentioned are important educators. Joan Hill and Acee Blue Eagle are two of the most important Native American painters in the 20th century. I'm not sure why you want to separate warriors as "leaders," but most of the people listed are highly influential leaders. Anyone else have thoughts about how to present notable Muscogee Creeks? Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a significant distinction between leaders and entertainers (although there are few instants that they can be both). Usually leaders are engaged in some type of governmental or organizational relations (elected official, soldier, liaison, delegate). Mary Musgrove was certainly not a warrior and certainly not an entertainer. We can make a request for comments. Rob (talk) 15:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Muscogee "revamp"

message: As this article was growing overly large, I went ahead and created an article specifically for the Muscogee (Creek) Nation, leaving this article to cover the Muscogee people as an ethnic group. -Uyvsdi (talk) 03:45, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Muscogee (Creek) Nation]] 

message: I propose that Muskhogean stock be merged into Muscogee people. The term "stock" to refer to peoples is out-dated and more than a little offensive. The Muscogee people article refers not simply to a homogeneous ethnic group, but a confederacy of tribes. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:10, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, then how would this stub differ from Muscogee people, since Muscogee people are a confederacy of broad range of Southeastern tribes who are united by ancestral Muscogean languages? -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: Can you add Grant-Lee Phillips (of Grant Lee Buffalo) as part of notable Creek peoples? source:(http://www.grantleephillips.com/site/index.html) --98.119.14.141 (talk) 07:12, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grant-Lee Phillips is of Creek descent 

message: Tennessee is found 10 times in the article but not once in the lead.--Jacksoncw (talk) 01:36, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tennessee 

message: What's going on with the infobox image for this article? Obviously, it can't be left blank, especially for such a large tribe. Yuchitown (talk) 04:19, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm putting the image of the bandolier bag as a placeholder. Yuchitown (talk) 04:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox Images 

message: I've deleted the quote from Tecumseh stating "The Muscogee was once a mighty people. … Let the white race perish. …" This quote appeared in J. F H. Claiborne, Life and Times of Gen. Sam Dale, the Mississippi Partisan (Harper, New York, 1860). However, historian John Sugden writes, "Claiborne's description of Tecumseh at Tuckabatchie in the alleged autobiography of the Fontiersman, Samuel Dale, however, is fraudulent. … Although they adopt the style of the first person, as in conventional autobiography, the passages dealing with Tecumseh were largely based upon published sources, including McKenney, Pickett and Drake's Life of Tecumseh. The story is cast in the exaggerated and sensational language of the dime novelist, with embellishments more likely supplied by Claiborne than Dale, and the speech put into Tecumseh's mouth is not only unhistorical (it has the British in Detroit!) but similar to ones the author concocted for other Indians in different circumstances." Sugden also finds it "unreliable" and "bogus." Sugden, John. "Early Pan-Indianism; Tecumseh’s Tour of the Indian Country, 1811-1812." American Indian Quarterly 10, no. 4 (1986): 273–304. doi:10.2307/1183838.--Carwil (talk) 19:49, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misattributed Tecumseh quote… 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051118194415/http://galafilm.com/1812/e/people/creeks.html to http://www.galafilm.com/1812/e/people/creeks.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110628183334/http://skyways.lib.ks.us/kansas/genweb/woodson/Yahola.txt to http://skyways.lib.ks.us/kansas/genweb/woodson/Yahola.txt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100328062033/http://www.ok.gov/oiac/Tribal_Nations/index.html to http://www.ok.gov/oiac/Tribal_Nations/index.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050324003735/http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_009100_creek.htm to http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_009100_creek.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: — Assignment last updated by Cole Kebea (talk) 02:43, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Cultures of Collecting

message: This and other Wikipedia articles claim that the Red Sticks of the war of 1813-14 were opposed by "White Sticks" who were allies of the United States. But the name "White Sticks" is a late-20th-century invention that is not attested in any source from the time of the war (or more than 150 years after). 
Several of these "White Stick" passages cite an online article by historian Kathryn H. Braund as their source. They overlook a passage from that article, which reads: In recent times, some historians have adopted the name “White Sticks” for the national Creeks. This designation has no basis in fact or in Creek custom. 
Instead of "White Sticks," editors can refer to the "national" or "allied" Creeks. They were the ones who supported the Creek national government, which was formed in the 1790s at the instigation of U.S. agent Benjamin Hawkins. -- ℜob C. alias ALAROB 18:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  There were no "White Sticks"; use "national" or "allied"