Talk:Political views on the Macedonian language

message: This article is not nearly well sourced enough. - FrancisTyers 17:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice, but some people don't like hearing or reading about stuff they deem propaganda. They would push any such notions out of the article, sorry. As much as they are concerned there was no such period when these were equal to these and there's no way you'll ever get that into their heads. --Laveol T 01:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Verify

message: === Greek view ===
The name of the language is considered offensive by many Greeks, who assert that the ancient Macedonian language is the only "Macedonian language" and that it was a northern dialect of ancient Greek . They further argue that, since Slavic immigration to the region did not begin until around 900 years after the decline of the Macedonian Empire, it is historically inaccurate to refer to a Slavic language as Macedonian . In some respects, the arguments correspond to the Bulgarian view, namely that the name 'Macedonian' was created for political reasons after the end of WWII by Tito, in order to consolidate a separate identity for the southernmost Yugoslav Republic and to lay claim over areas of Greek Macedonia and Bulgaria. Most Greeks in Greek Macedonia tend to refer to the language either as ντόπια (dopia = local tongue in Greek) or as "Slavomacedonian" in order to highlight the Slavic nature of the language . 
There are hardly any references to a 'Macedonian' language before the 20th century ; the Slavic idiom spoken in northern Greece and in geographical Macedonia was referred to as merely "Slavic", from the Slavic settlement until the rise of the Bulgarian Empire, then Bulgarian. The Greek authors described the Slavic language in Macedonia like "Slavic" or "Bulgarian" until the 19th Century, when two groups of linguists appeared, using terms "Bulgarian" or "Serbian" to describe their political ambitions (according to the historian Krste Misirkov, in 1903 and his book Za Makedonckite Raboti). The name of the language depended on its speakers and their political attitude, but the formation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870 and its popularity in these regions definitely led some foreign travellers and Greeks to consider all the Macedonian Slavs (and a good portion of present Eastern Serbs) as Bulgarians .
Outside of Greece, most international news organizations and language scholars refer to the language as "Macedonian".  See Republic of Macedonia for more on the related naming dispute.
=== Bulgarian view ===
The Bulgarian insistence on the non-existence of a separate 'Macedonian' language is based on arguments derived from history, from daily experiences and from linguistic considerations. 
The historical argument has its source in the claim that Macedonian was a Bulgarian dialect in the past, the assumed implication being that it has no right to be acknowledged as a standard language at present either. That argument goes as follows. According to Bulgarian academics, the contemporary literary language of Macedonia was created after 1945 by Yugoslav linguists who wanted to create a separate Macedonian nationality within the federal republic and thus divide Macedonian Bulgarians from those in Bulgaria. After almost a century of futile attempts to eradicate its perceived Bulgarian character and to Serbianize Macedonia, Yugoslavia had apparently decided to apply the tried Roman maxim "divide and conquer" instead. In codifying the new language, the Yugoslav communists introduced a slight variation of the Cyrillic alphabet and a large number of Serbian lexis; they also did everything possible to create grammatical differences from literary Bulgarian. Bulgaria also considers that contemporary Macedonian linguists resort to falsifications and deliberate misinterpretations of history and documents in order to further the opinion that there was a consciousness of a separate Macedonian language before that time. The publication in the Republic of Macedonia of the folk song collections Bulgarian Folk Songs by the Miladinov Brothers and Songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians by Serbian archaeologist Verkovic under the "politically correct" titles Collection and Macedonian Folk Songs are some of the examples quoted by the Bulgarians. They also argue over about half a million refugees from the region of Macedonia that emigrated to free Bulgaria in the period 1879 to 1944 integrated with minimum effort in Bulgarian society and are indistinguishable from other Bulgarians; in fact, many of them found themselves at the helm of the Bulgarian state - for example, Andrey Liapchev (Prime Minister, 1926-1931, born in Resen) or Todor Pavlov (a communist intellectual born in Shtip who was a Regent in 1944-1946). Natives of Macedonia were heavily represented in the Bulgarian elites: officers, parliamentarians, business people, writers, lawyers, doctors etc. Bulgarians take pride in having a Macedonian ancestor, the number of people with Macedonian lineage is especially great in the capital (Sofia) as well as in Plovdiv and Varna. See also history of Bulgaria.
The argument derived from daily experience is that there is no language barrier or room for linguistic misunderstanding when citizens and politicians of the two countries speak to each other - be it colloquially or at academic level. On the scientific side, Bulgarian linguists claim that, objectively, the differences between Bulgarian and Macedonian are insufficient to justify the recognition of the latter as a separate language. 
For these reasons, the most common Bulgarian view is that Macedonian is a Bulgarian dialect rather than a language in its own right. To assess the validity of these arguments, especially of the latter, in a broader perspective, see the definition of dialect as opposed to standard language. 
Although Bulgaria was the first country to recognize the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, it has refused to recognize the existence of a separate Macedonian nation and a separate Macedonian language.
===Serbian view===
The Serbian view on the Macedonian language changed over time, according to political climate. In the past, it was essentially the same as the Bulgarian view, just with the terms "Bulgarian" and "Serbian" interchanged. However, with the recognition of Macedonian nation and the breakup of Yugoslavia, the majority of Serbs accepted Macedonian language and national identity as separate from Serbian, and two peoples maintain generally good relations (with the exception of church conflict).
A considerable number of linguists see the Macedonian language as a continuation of Timok-Prizren Serbian dialects (Torlakian dialect) which stretch from the Romanian-Serbian border to the Albanian-Serbian border. By a nationalist extension to this point of view, Macedonian is the southernmost dialect of Serbian. It is indeed very similar to the Serbian dialects of Kosovo and Metohija, Niš, Vranje or Leskovac, and those dialects share the basic features with Macedonian – the lack of cases, the same vocal system, and are mutually comprehensible. The general point of view in Serbia found among the common people is that "Macedonian is merely Serbian with no cases used" (although the majority recognizes the Macedonian separate identity, which is an apparent paradox), and the expression is used sometimes as a joke (as a "quick model" for learning Macedonian"), and sometimes as a factoid. Again, the validity of this argument is crucially dependent on the very definition of dialect as opposed to standard language. 
To the Bulgarian argument of half a million refugees from Macedonia easily incorporated into Bulgaria, the Serbs usually say that the Great Migration of Serbs from 1690 (led by Patriarch Arsenije Čarnojević) from Kosovo and Macedonia to present-day Vojvodina was in fact the migration of (mostly) Macedonians, who with no effort have been incorporated into the Serbian nation. The number of Serbs in Vojvodina and Northern Serbia (Belgrade, Smederevo, Šabac and Šumadija regions) with Macedonian lineage is, according to the Serbian Orthodox Church birth notes from the 17th century, about 50%.
===Macedonian view===
During the Serbian Empire, the Macedonians embraced the Slavic rule and did not oppose the fact that they were called Serbs, and even started using the name "Serb" among themselves. The Serbian aristocracy was given land in Macedonia, so even the greatest Serbian epic hero, Prince Marko (in Serbian: Kraljević Marko, in Macedonian: Krale Marko), became king of an independent Macedonia, known as Krale Marko, the greatest epic hero of Macedonians, too. The Turkish rule led to the ban and later dropping of the Serbian name, so the Macedonians once again started to call themselves "Christians" ("Risjani") or "Macedonian Slavs". The Ohrid Archbishops, controlled by the Phanariotic Greek movement, put much efforts to hellenize all the Macedonian Slavs, which almost completely succeeded in Aegean Macedonia, where the assimilated Slavs after 1912 became fierce Greek nationalists. 
The formation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870 spread the Bulgarian propaganda in Eastern Serbia and the whole of Macedonia, and the Bulgarian schools and libraries ("chitalishtes") were open all across Macedonia, forcing the idea of Bulgarian ethnicity of Macedonians and Eastern Serbians. Before the Balkan wars, the situation changed, and Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian propaganda started to prepare the Macedonians to the Partition of Macedonia in 1912-13. After that, thousands of Macedonians fled from Greece to Serbia and Bulgaria, in an attempt not to be hellenized.
The Macedonian point of view also emphasises that assimilated Macedonians live in Pirin Macedonia (Bulgaria) and Aegean Macedonia (Greece) where they have no rights to use their own language. Also, some of the Macedonian nationalists think that the inhabitants of Gora and Kačanik (Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija) and Vranje (Central Serbia) should be called Macedonians too.
The everyday Macedonian life is full of reminiscences to the painful partition of Macedonia in 1912, and a big portion of the population frequently keeps repeating that "Macedonians are Slavs, and Bulgarians are Tataro-Asiatic by origin, so that they have no ethnic connections", which is not entirely correct, having in mind that the relatively small number of Proto-Bulgarians had been assimilated by more numerous Slavs.
:Quoting the so-called Macedonian view: "The assimilation of Macedonians was almost finished in Bulgaria, and the Greek government expelled hundreds of thousands of Slavs from Macedonia, who settled finally in Vardar Macedonia under Yugoslav control" -- I feel compelled to say that my grandmother's family was one of the hundreds of thousands expelled by the Greek government, except they moved to Plovdiv, Bulgaria, and no, she didn't feel she was "assimilated" by Bulgarians -- after all, she never thought that she isn't Bulgarian, despite being Macedonian, too.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.31.1 (talk) 08:40, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Uncited

message: During the Serbian Empire, the Macedonians embraced the Slavic rule and did not oppose the fact that they were called Serbs, and even started using the name "Serb" among themselves. The Serbian aristocracy was given land in Macedonia, so even the greatest Serbian epic hero, Prince Marko (in Serbian: Kraljević Marko, in Macedonian: Krale Marko), became king of an independent Macedonia, known as Krale Marko, the greatest epic hero of Macedonians, too. The Turkish rule led to the ban and later dropping of the Serbian name, so the Macedonians once again started to call themselves "Christians" ("Risjani") or "Macedonian Slavs". The Ohrid Archbishops, controlled by the Phanariotic Greek movement, put much efforts to hellenize all the Macedonian Slavs, which almost completely succeeded in Aegean Macedonia, where the assimilated Slavs after 1912 became fierce Greek nationalists. 
The formation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870 spread the Bulgarian propaganda in Eastern Serbia and the whole of Macedonia, and the Bulgarian schools and libraries ("chitalishtes") were open all across Macedonia, forcing the idea of Bulgarian ethnicity of Macedonians and Eastern Serbians. Before the Balkan wars, the situation changed, and Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian propaganda started to prepare the Macedonians to the Partition of Macedonia in 1912-13. After that, thousands of Macedonians fled from Greece to Serbia and Bulgaria, in an attempt not to be hellenized.
The Macedonian point of view also emphasises that assimilated Macedonians live in Pirin Macedonia (Bulgaria) and Aegean Macedonia (Greece) where they have no rights to use their own language. Also, some of the Macedonian nationalists think that the inhabitants of Gora and Kačanik (Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija) and Vranje (Central Serbia) should be called Macedonians too.
The everyday Macedonian life is full of reminiscences to the painful partition of Macedonia in 1912, and a big portion of the population frequently keeps repeating that "Macedonians are Slavs, and Bulgarians are Tataro-Asiatic by origin, so that they have no ethnic connections", which is not entirely correct, having in mind that the relatively small number of Proto-Bulgarians had been assimilated by more numerous Slavs.
:Quoting the so-called Macedonian view: "The assimilation of Macedonians was almost finished in Bulgaria, and the Greek government expelled hundreds of thousands of Slavs from Macedonia, who settled finally in Vardar Macedonia under Yugoslav control" -- I feel compelled to say that my grandmother's family was one of the hundreds of thousands expelled by the Greek government, except they moved to Plovdiv, Bulgaria, and no, she didn't feel she was "assimilated" by Bulgarians -- after all, she never thought that she isn't Bulgarian, despite being Macedonian, too.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.31.1 (talk) 08:40, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Macedonian view

message: All for including larger sections as long as they are well sourced.  The ones that I just reverted were not. (VMRO 16:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Noted below:
=== Macedonian view ===
According to the Macedonian view, now prevalent and official in the books in Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian was the first official language of the Slavs, thanks to the St. Cyril and St. Methodius's introduction of Slavic literacy language through the Glagolitic script, that was based on Southern Macedonian dialect from the neighbourhood of Thessaloniki, the home of the two saints. Later on, Macedonia fell under the rule of Bulgarians, and the Byzantines regarded all Slavic Macedonians as Bulgarians. Samuil's realm in the early Middle Ages was the first Macedonian Slavic state.
During the Serbian Empire, the Macedonians embraced the Slavic rule and did not oppose the fact that they were called Serbs, and even started using the name "Serb" among themselves. The Serbian aristocracy was given land in Macedonia, so even the greatest Serbian epic hero, Prince Marko (in Serbian: Kraljević Marko, in Macedonian: Krale Marko), became king of an independent Macedonia, known as Krale Marko, the greatest epic hero of Macedonians, too. The Turkish rule led to the ban and later dropping of the Serbian name, so the Macedonians once again started to call themselves "Christians" ("Risjani") or "Macedonian Slavs". The Ohrid Archbishops, controlled by the Phanariotic Greek movement, put much efforts to hellenize all the Macedonian Slavs, which almost completely succeeded in Aegean Macedonia, where the assimilated Slavs after 1912 became fierce Greek nationalists. The assimilation of Macedonians was almost finished in Bulgaria, and the Greek government expelled hundreds of thousands of Slavs from Macedonia, who settled finally in Vardar Macedonia under Yugoslav control, where in 1945, the local language became official, according to the decision made in 1944. Approximately 1/3 of the present inhabitants of Macedonia are the descendants of the Aegean Macedonian refugees.   
The formation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870 spread the Bulgarian propaganda in Eastern Serbia and the whole of Macedonia, and the Bulgarian schools and libraries ("chitalishtes") were open all across Macedonia, forcing the idea of Bulgarian ethnicity of Macedonians and Eastern Serbians. Before the Balkan wars, the situation changed, and Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian propaganda started to prepare the Macedonians to the Partition of Macedonia in 1912-13. After that, thousands of Macedonians fled from Greece to Serbia and Bulgaria, in an attempt not to be hellenized. The assimilation of Macedonians was almost finished in Bulgaria, and the Greek government expelled hundreds of thousands of Slavs from Macedonia, who settled finally in Vardar Macedonia under Yugoslav control, where in 1945, the local language became official, according to the decision made in 1944. Approximately 1/3 of the present inhabitants of Macedonia are the descendants of the Aegean Macedonian refugees.    
  
The Macedonian point of view also emphasises that assimilated Macedonians live in Pirin Macedonia (Bulgaria) and Aegean Macedonia (Greece) where they have no rights to use their own language. Also, some of the Macedonian nationalists think that the inhabitants of Gora and Kačanik (Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija) and Vranje (Central Serbia) should be called Macedonians too.
The everyday Macedonian life is full of reminiscences to the painful partition of Macedonia in 1912, and a big portion of the population frequently keeps repeating that "Macedonians are Slavs, and Bulgarians are Tataro-Asiatic by origin, so that they have no ethnic connections", which is not entirely correct, having in mind that the relatively small number of Proto-Bulgarians had been assimilated by more numerous Slavs.
=== Serbian view ===
The Serbian view on the Macedonian language changed over time, according to political climate. In the past, it was essentially the same as the Bulgarian view, just with the terms "Bulgarian" and "Serbian" interchanged. However, with the recognition of Macedonian nation and the breakup of Yugoslavia, the majority of Serbs accepted Macedonian language and national identity as separate from Serbian, and two peoples maintain generally good relations (with the exception of church conflict).  There's a region in northern Banat called Banatska Crna Gora, that was inhabited exclusively by the Macedonians from Skopska Crna Gora. Austrian Emperor Leopold even proclaimed Jovan Monastirlija from Bitola (then Monastir) a vojvoda (duke) of the Serbian nation in Austria in 1691: "1667 Emperor Leopold gave some privileges to the Greeks (Graeci) and Serbs (Rasciani) who emigrated toward Northern Hungary and most of them arrived from Macedonia (Praesertim autem ex Macedonia adventum)."  
   
A considerable number of linguists see the Macedonian language as a continuation of Timok-Prizren Serbian dialects (Torlakian dialect) which stretch from the Romanian-Serbian border to the Albanian-Serbian border. By a nationalist extension to this point of view, Macedonian is the southernmost dialect of Serbian. It is indeed very similar to the Serbian dialects of Kosovo and Metohija, Niš, Vranje or Leskovac, and those dialects share the basic features with Macedonian – the lack of cases, the same vocal system, and are mutually comprehensible. The general point of view in Serbia found among the common people is that "Macedonian is merely Serbian with no cases used" (although the majority recognizes the Macedonian separate identity, which is an apparent paradox), and the expression is used sometimes as a joke (as a "quick model" for learning Macedonian"), and sometimes as a factoid. Again, the validity of this argument is crucially dependent on the very definition of dialect as opposed to standard language.    
   
To the Bulgarian argument of half a million refugees from Macedonia easily incorporated into Bulgaria, the Serbs usually say that the Great Migration of Serbs from 1690 (led by Patriarch Arsenije Čarnojević) from Kosovo and Macedonia to present-day Vojvodina was in fact the migration of (mostly) Macedonians, who with no effort have been incorporated into the Serbian nation. The number of Serbs in Vojvodina and Northern Serbia (Belgrade, Smederevo, Šabac and Šumadija regions) with Macedonian lineage is, according to the Serbian Orthodox Church birth notes from the 17th century, about 50%.
(VMRO 19:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Duja, let's take a crack at writing a decent Serbian section, shall we?  I will have more time on my hands come Christmas. We could even write a separate larger article and then summarise it only for this one. (VMRO 15:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian and Macedonian views 

message: The Serbian view on the Macedonian language changed over time, according to political climate. In the past, it was essentially the same as the Bulgarian view, just with the terms "Bulgarian" and "Serbian" interchanged. However, with the recognition of Macedonian nation and the breakup of Yugoslavia, the majority of Serbs accepted Macedonian language and national identity as separate from Serbian, and two peoples maintain generally good relations (with the exception of church conflict).  There's a region in northern Banat called Banatska Crna Gora, that was inhabited exclusively by the Macedonians from Skopska Crna Gora. Austrian Emperor Leopold even proclaimed Jovan Monastirlija from Bitola (then Monastir) a vojvoda (duke) of the Serbian nation in Austria in 1691: "1667 Emperor Leopold gave some privileges to the Greeks (Graeci) and Serbs (Rasciani) who emigrated toward Northern Hungary and most of them arrived from Macedonia (Praesertim autem ex Macedonia adventum)."  
   
A considerable number of linguists see the Macedonian language as a continuation of Timok-Prizren Serbian dialects (Torlakian dialect) which stretch from the Romanian-Serbian border to the Albanian-Serbian border. By a nationalist extension to this point of view, Macedonian is the southernmost dialect of Serbian. It is indeed very similar to the Serbian dialects of Kosovo and Metohija, Niš, Vranje or Leskovac, and those dialects share the basic features with Macedonian – the lack of cases, the same vocal system, and are mutually comprehensible. The general point of view in Serbia found among the common people is that "Macedonian is merely Serbian with no cases used" (although the majority recognizes the Macedonian separate identity, which is an apparent paradox), and the expression is used sometimes as a joke (as a "quick model" for learning Macedonian"), and sometimes as a factoid. Again, the validity of this argument is crucially dependent on the very definition of dialect as opposed to standard language.    
   
To the Bulgarian argument of half a million refugees from Macedonia easily incorporated into Bulgaria, the Serbs usually say that the Great Migration of Serbs from 1690 (led by Patriarch Arsenije Čarnojević) from Kosovo and Macedonia to present-day Vojvodina was in fact the migration of (mostly) Macedonians, who with no effort have been incorporated into the Serbian nation. The number of Serbs in Vojvodina and Northern Serbia (Belgrade, Smederevo, Šabac and Šumadija regions) with Macedonian lineage is, according to the Serbian Orthodox Church birth notes from the 17th century, about 50%.
(VMRO 19:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Duja, let's take a crack at writing a decent Serbian section, shall we?  I will have more time on my hands come Christmas. We could even write a separate larger article and then summarise it only for this one. (VMRO 15:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian view 

message: I agree to the merging of "Macedonian language naming dispute" to here. The reasons are obvious enough. BalkanFever 09:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Merge Alex Makedon (talk) 13:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: Since a merge of the three articles is on the way this is not so important. Anyway, i removed the focused views and kept only Kunt who criticizes both the Greek and Bulgarian positions based on linguistic evidence and Danforth who presents a spherical view, acknowledging the political parameters and defining their importance. I guess Oschlies can be readded too with an extended quotation, made clear that it's meant as an answer to Bulgarian scholars. The others are just too far away from the article's perspective.  Just two of the first scholars expressing an opinion close to the modern mainstream linguistic approach. That's the reason afterall this material is not included in the main article. --Zakronian (talk) 05:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other views 

message: It is written in the article that in 1998 Bulgaria recognised the Macedonian language, but that's not correct. In fact it was achieved a compromise by which both sides were satisfied. I mean that the Macedonian language since then is referred as 'the language according to the constitution of Republic of Macedonia' and the Bulgarian as 'the language according to the constitution of Republic of Bulgaria'. Thus direct definition of the language spoken and written in the ex-Jugoslav republic as "Macedonian" or "Bulgarian" is avoided. If nobody objects I am going to remove the statement that Bulgaria recognised the Macedonian language.Scheludko (talk) 09:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulgaria didin't recognise the Macedonian language 

message: Delete or improve the vocabulary part at once, мора and треба are completely different verbs, мора is must, and треба is should. Nobody says пороѓај, plus раѓање is роѓење in Serbian, and the Serbian пороѓај is породување in Macedonian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.24.111 (talk) 23:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vocabulary  

message: From the linguistic point of view, this article is as superfluous as a goiter. Macedonian is - or is not - a language because the Macedonians consider it a language and wish it - or not. Full stop.
Indeed, however, the article and the talk excellently demonstrate why so much has gone wrong on the Balkans ... --Hellsepp (talk) 20:34, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Superfluous 

message: This article seems irrelevant and says nothing that has not been covered in other articles that contain chapters on the Macedonian issue. A special article on the political views on the Macedonian language IMO has no relevance in wikipedia. Even the term 'political' is open to interpretation. If an admin wishes to take this up... Politis (talk) 16:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Article for Deletion?

message: There is a lot of repetition and redundancy in the Bulgarian section. I will let User:Jingiby continue to edit it and after she/he is satisfied I will look and see what I can do. I would delete the second paragraph, since the first paragraph completely covers the content of the second paragraph. GStojanov (talk) 20:12, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You are free to do it. Jingiby (talk) 03:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redundancy in the Bulgarian view section 

message: Note: Moved from my Talk page. GStojanov (talk) 12:52, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I like how you used the sources I provided with the one you found. I think we are slowly improving this article Political_views_on_the_Macedonian_language. I will continue the discussion on the Talk page of the article. GStojanov (talk) 20:07, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep in mind that Bulgarian Academy of Sciences does not recognize Macedonian language. The political situation is also very complicated. Check also this news from 2018: Ekaterina Zaharieva: Bulgaria is not about to recognize either the Macedonian language or the Macedonian nation. Jingiby (talk) 03:29, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have heard many times that the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences does not recognize Macedonian language, but I can't find any reliable information that they, as an institution, have ever discussed this issue and published any decision about it. Can you, please, help me locate an information is you have it? (BTW I will move this conversation to the talk page of the article, where it belongs). GStojanov (talk) 12:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here you are: Ana Kocheva, Ivan Kochev, "On the recodifications of the Bulgarian literary language in Vardar Macedonia and Aegean Macedonia". "Bulgarian Language"; journal of the Institute for Bulgarian Language by Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, № 65 (2018), issue № 1, pp. 99–116. Abstract: The Bulgarian literary language has a record number of regional written norms. Out of the six codifications, three were based on dialects and three − on the Bulgarian literary language (in the Aegean part of Greece, in the Republic of Macedonia and in Ukraine). In the latter cases, this is actually not a primary codification but a secondary one, а (re) codification of the already established (during the Bulgarian National Revival) and long-used literary Bulgarian language. Jingiby (talk) 13:14, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I read the article but I still don't know in what way they don't recognize the Macedonian language. The word "recognize"(признава) is mentioned twice but in different contexts. GStojanov (talk) 18:11, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The text is clear: Of the six recodifications of the Bulgarian language here were discussed the Vardar Macedonian and Aegean Macedonian. But the six are together a clear testimony of the pluricentrism of the Bulgarian language, which is the result from the extremely complex historical destiny of the Bulgarian people. Nowere Macedonian is mentioned as a separate language, but only as a regional variety of pluricentric Bulgarian. More, there are 2 Macedonian varieties of Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 19:10, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The term "to recognize" has two basic meanings: 1. Identify (препознае) 2. acknowledge the existence, validity, or legality of. I'm guessing the two authors don't have problem with the first meaning. They surely can identify a Macedonian language either spoken or written. If google translate, being a dumb robot can, they surely can too. So it must be the second meaning: Acknowledge (accept or admit) a) existence b) validity d) legality. What of the three they don't accept? The existence, the validity or the legality? GStojanov (talk) 20:06, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the official opinion of the Institute for Bulgarian Language at the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences to the so-called Macedonian language published in Bulgarian language jhournal, 1996-7, vol. 1, p. 1-3. The conclusion reads as follows: Институтът за български език потвърждава отдавна заявеното си становище: В историческо, диалектно и структурно отношение „македонски език“, различен от българския, не съществува. „Македонският литературен език“, наложен като официален език в Република Македония, е книжовна форма на българския език. Rough translation: The Institute for Bulgarian Language confirms its long-standing opinion: In historical, dialectical and structural terms, "Macedonian language", different from Bulgarian, does not exist. The "Macedonian literary language", imposed as an official language in the Republic of Macedonia, is a literary form of the Bulgarian language. Jingiby (talk) 03:56, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your link points to a blog discussing this issue. Can we find a link to the actual Journal where this statement was published? GStojanov (talk) 12:54, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here you are:Становище на Института за български език при БАН за т. нар. македонски език. Jingiby (talk) 15:01, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I guess they did take a stance and they don't recognize it?! That is strange since 1. To object its existence is silly, as silly as the simple man who seeing a giraffe exclaimed: "Such animal DOES NOT exist." (A Bulgarian joke by the way). Macedonian is a large language with 2 million native speakers.  2. To object its validity is also silly. Only the native speakers are entitled to validate and reform their standard language. Macedonian language is surprisingly stable. The last reform happened in 1951. 3. To object its legality is impossible. There isn't any legal framework defining legal vs illegal languages. All languages are equally legal. GStojanov (talk) 18:38, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

text: Literary language? Is there a substantial difference between the use of so-called "Macedonian" in literature and the vernacular form of this dialect/language? Dimadick (talk) 14:59, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The standard (literary) Macedonian language is very close to the vernacular. It is not a "so-called", it is one of the top 100 languages. Google translate supports it too. GStojanov (talk) 18:15, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

text: I don't know about the Bulgarian side of the map, but the Macedonian side has multiple errors: Strumica is in the same dialectal region with Radovish, Lerin is in the same region with Bitola, etc... Here is the correct Map of Macedonian dialects. And here is a site of digital resources of the Macedonain Academy of Sciences. GStojanov (talk) 13:43, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary sources 

message: Why did you revert my edit? There is a word σλαβομακεδονικά for the South Slavic language, but few people ever use it because it contains the name of Macedonia. Why would we want to include the name that we claim as ours? The source that you provide doe not represent the point of view of the majority of Greeks.
Melaneas (talk) 21:20, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek term for referring to the language