Talk:Guillotine

message: You lose conciousness basically immediately after the blood supply has been stopped to the brain. This even works with "choke" holds and blows to the neck that reset the nerve that controls blood pressure to the brain causing it to drop for a moment. All these cause immediate loss of conciousness. Its impossible to know whats going on and claims otherwise just are proven false by facts. The article is very messy and poor with all the false claims.
: This. c-;<  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:9E8:244B:5100:44AF:C722:2F5D:4F6F (talk) 14:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concious 

message: Vandalism
I suspect that a guillotine operator 'having a big weiner' and Hitler 'having a loose vag' were vandalism and have edited accordingly-----Dan blyth  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.39.114 (talk) 14:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: unsigned item

message: I think you should mention Dr Louis in your article
Best regards,
Benoit
:Yes, Benoit, we probably should. If you know more about Dr Antoine Louis, you can add him to the article yourself! - Nunh-huh 22:11, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr Louis 

message: Try 
:v^2 = 2 g s
oh alright.. kelsey  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whuzap (talk • contribs) 20:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  how fast did the blade fall 

message: Anyone know?
:After public executions were suppressed, the guillotine was, if I remember well, located inside the courtyard of the prison where the condemned person waited. This meant that they had to build it specially in many cases. David.Monniaux 23:54, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where specifically in Paris was the guillotine located? 

message: Regarding the concept that a victim may remain conscious for a period of time after decapitation by guillotine (ref):
"There is however some debate as to the humane nature of the guillotine, as some authorities believe that the victim can remain conscious for up to 30 seconds after decapitation."
Please reconcile this with the comments regarding execution by hanging, which imply instantaneous death (or at least unconsciousness) for the "long drop" method that severs the spine in the cervical vertabrae of the neck:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging " Marwood realised that each person required a different drop, based on the prisoner's weight, which would dislocate the cervical vertebrae resulting in "instantaneous" death." 
And (same URL): "Marwood also experimented with the positioning of the knot, and discovered that placing it under the left ear or under the angle of the left jaw would jerk the head backwards at the end of the drop and instantly sever the spinal cord and dislocate the cervical vertebrae."
Now, it would seem logical, that decapitation by guillotine, which must naturally sever the spinal cord, as well as all of the structures and processes of the neck, ought also result in instantaneous unconsciousness.
Clearly, one or other of these articles must be incorrect.  I am not taking any position for either side, lacking any unique information or competency by training or experience to establish a position.  It only would seem that a reference ought to be consistent between articles.  Is there any controversy regarding a "successful" long drop hanging, that the condemned remains conscious after the neck is broken and the spinal cord severed?
: I'm not a doctor (nor do I play one on TV), but I can offer a few "it seems to me" points: There's no reason to connect either dislocating the cervical vertebrae or severing the spinal cord with "instantaneous" death. Brain death occurs when the brain is deprived of oxygenated blood, but there's no reason to assume that even the explosive loss of blood pressure in the head caused by a guillotining would cause the brain to instantly cease functioning. Something this article doesn't currently mention is that there are many (gruesome) stories indicating that some guillotine victims remained conscious for some seconds, as indicated by eye movement, changing facial expressions, etc.
: It may be that a "correctly" performed hanging inflicts a sufficient jolt to the head to cause instantaneous unconsciousness, whereas a guillotining would impart little impact to the head. Another factor is that it would be difficult to make close-up observations of a person's head (to see eye movement, for example) in the seconds immediately after a hanging, especially if the victim's head is covered with a hood. It seems likely that the people claiming instantaneous death upon a properly performed hanging were making that judgment based simply on the complete lack of movement of the victim's body, which would of course result if the spinal cord was severed.  KarlBunker 13:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To the first poster in this section - Could you sign your posts please with four tildas (~)? Instantaneous is an interesting question. You have to ask yourself how do these methods kill.  Clearly the brain is not affected by the severing of the neck. What does happen is that blood pressure is lost or air ceases to be supplied to the brain or both.  So the guillotine cuts the neck completely, resulting in a massive drop in blood pressure and a total lack of oxygen to the brain. Unconsciousness probably follows more or less immediately, but brain death only occurs over a few minutes as the brain is starved of oxygen. Hanging, if it merely breaks the neck (and one of the reasons hanging became private was that it tended, even with the long drop tables, to do one of two thing - severe the head completely showering the spectators with blood, or slowly choke the victim), results in paralysis of the body and hence no breathing. No breath, no air to the lungs, no air to the brain.  It is the same as being strangled, but without all the kicking and scream due to the paralysis. Again brain death probably takes a few minutes but consciousness is probably not lost due to the fact that the blood pressure of the victim remains high. So neither article is entirely inaccurate, it just means what you mean by instantaneous. On the whole the guillotine is probably more humane. Lao Wai 13:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: To Karl Bunker, there are stories of twitching, but it is impossible to say if that is the result of consciousness or not.  Chickens flap their wings and can even run after they have been decapitated.  It is unlikely that being hit by a rope at the speeds hanging involved would result in much brain trauma.  But as you say, if they are paralysed and moving so that no one can study them who would know?  Lao Wai 13:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Square these facts from different articles...? 

message: Axweildr
Last public execution 1939, last execution 1903, I suspect a typo
I believe the date information shown for the members of the White Rose resistants in Germany is incorrect.  It is true that sex were executed, but not on the same date...the Stolls and Probst were the first, followed by a others at two later dates.  I'll try to confirm the specifics and then edit this little bit.  The White Rose article contains the information but I want to confirm that before proceeding.  Wood Artist 17:56, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dates inexact

message: I heard some people at my school library talking about disrupting guillotine to prove something (a bet was involved). Watch out. --Thelb4 16:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Watch out 

message: This is a very misleading passage and anyone without medical
knowledge might get the wrong impression that it pertains a
scientific fact and that victims retain some conciousness
for many seconds, which of course is just anecdotal unconfirmed 
(and by all probability misconstrued nonsence).
By the way I am a doctor myself, so I should know a thing or two.
Someone should not confuse the concepts of consciousness and 
complete brain death which can be saparate by even 4 minutes.
The nerve cell stops firing from lack of oxygen within seconds. 
Even the slightest disruption of the brain stem or the upper spinal cord 
can cause instantaneous loss of consciousness, a good example is the even 
partial severance of the spinal cord in accidents. This might 
be due to "cirquitry disruption" and is even faster than any blood 
pressure drop. Imagine it as fast as a switch that goes off. In that
sense, an ideal hanging that severes completely the spinal cord
and stops completely the circulation through the neck should
have instant effect. Of course the ideal hanging is
very hard to accomplish with certainty and there is still
some arterial flow through the vertebal arteries and vessels in the bones.
There are many things that can go wrong, there is no comparison
with a fast decapitation.
Alternatively I would add the higher quality (but equally anecdotal
with current standards) passage from the BMJ which is only referenced
in the notes, just for the balance.
:The passage isn't represented as being scientifically reliable, so it isn't necessarily misleading. The section should probably be shortened some, and I'll do that. BTW, I'm also RVing the recent edits because the English is incorrect.  RedSpruce 16:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Upper spinal cord. This is an encyclopedia, and I for one agree with the original poster: this is purely anecdotal, and a primary source sense it's his word and his word only. I will be deleting this. 72.199.100.223 (talk) 04:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: I propose to delete the 1905 report

message: When Guillotin himself died it wasn't on his invention as myth would have it, but instead of natural causes on May 26, 1814. The descendants of Dr. Guillotin have since changed their surname because of the association with a method of execution..
I originally removed this section for a couple of reasons.  There are two unsubstantiated claims here: first, that there is a myth saying that Guillotin died on his own invention; second, that his descendants changed their surname.  In general, I don't see the point in stating a myth just to debunk it; I think it's especially pointless to do so given the lack of evidence that such a myth even exists outside of this Wikipedia page.  It's okay too leave the rest of this section (even though it is duplicated on the biographical page for Dr. Guillotin) but it is necessary to find some evidence for the claim that his descendants have changed their surname, which itself sounds a lot like another myth.
Anyway, I'm revising to remove the claim that there is a myth that Guillotin died on his own invention, but I'll leave the rest for now.  Comments welcome,  Dce7 21:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From Symbol and Satire in the French Revolution, by Ernest F. Henderson: "That Doctor Guillotin perished by means of his own invention is a statement often met with, but it is untrue." From Unusual Words and How They Came About by Edwin Radford: "Nor was Dr. Guillotin executed on it, as is so often stated;"  I don't think these references need to be added to the article (though you can if you want), because the existence of such a myth is a trivial point, and it's arguably silly to add a reference to document a trivial point. On the other hand, I've looked and haven't found any documentation that Guillotin's descendants changed their name. I'll keep looking, and if I don't find anything, I'll remove that statement. RedSpruce 14:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough.  Dce7 17:05, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Whether there is printed evidence or not, the myth of the Dr's death on his eponymous machine was commonly retold in the past. It's what I was told in school history lessons in the '60's, along with the notion he invented it. Not challenging it here would almost certainly mean it is more widely propagated in the future than otherwise. Sjwells53 (talk) 21:13, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guillotin's death and descendants 

message: I made a guillotene for my history project one year and found this page really helpful for the oral presentation part of the project, text as well as pictures! I am hoping that all the dates are correct and that no stupid people have come on and randomly changed them to confuse people, but thanks to those who put correct dates!
 23:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Guillotene 

message: What of the use of Guillotine used in Nazi Germany?
http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/guillotine.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Me254065 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nazi Guillotine 

message: If a head was actually alive after decapitation, would it just passively lay there?  I would think the extreme pain would make a severed head scream out loud, "Owwwww!"  The fact that the head does not do that suggests it is no longer conscious.  -  Theaveng (talk) 18:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What could a severed head do but passively lie there? It is impossible for a severed head to scream, as it is no longer connected to the lungs, and thus cannot make sounds. I don't know how painful it would be, as it is difficult to get reports back from the severed heads. But a cut from a sharp blade can be considerably less painful than a cut from a dull blade. The impact to the head when it hits the bottom of the bucket after it is severed might stun the person for a few seconds. There has been some evidence of severed heads remaining conscious and reponsive for a few seconds, but it is not conclusive.--RLent (talk) 21:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I forgot about the lung problem (can't scream without air).  It seems to me it should be easy to prove whether or not a head is conscious, simply by observing the person's reactions (are they grimacing in pain).   If someone chopped off my hand, no matter how sharp the blade, it's going to hurt and I will grimace my mouth, or squeeze my eyes shut, or whatever.  I would expect a severed neck to cause a similar reaction, and thus easy to prove or disprove a person's consciousness.  ----  Theaveng (talk) 18:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is mostly a thought-experiment, as we aren't going to cut people's heads off to do the experiement. But people often don't immediately notice clean cuts with a sharpe blade. I have a cut on my finger right now, and didn't notice it when it happened. It's hard to say just how much it would hurt to be guillotined with a sharp blade. But you are right, a head that was responding to pain would be an indication of consciousness. The ability of the person to respond to a questioner is another. (it seems odd to thinking of the head as a thing rather than the person him or herself, it is probably more accurate to think of it as the body being cut off rather than the head being cut off).--RLent (talk) 19:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I think of the head as the person.  Unfortunately he's lost the his heart, liver, lungs, and will not long survive that state.  ---- Theaveng (talk) 13:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wouldn't the guillotine hurt? 

message: Is the Guillotine still being used by any country for executions? I would like to reword the first line from "... is a device used for executions..." to "... was a device ...". Jay (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It still exists doesn't it? Past tense seems very odd to me. Nadando (talk) 01:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The actual physical device currently is stored in a dismantled state in a museum outside Paris 95.144.241.198 (talk) 19:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Guillotine in present tense?

message: The article says that the first documented use of The Maiden was in Ireland in 1307, yet the Maiden (beheading) article says that it was introduced to Scotland from England by James Douglas (1526 to 1581). Can anyone explain this? 11 March 2008.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.67.99 (talk) 11:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Different machines with similar names. The Scottish Maiden was inspired by the English Halifax Gibbet. Salmanazar (talk) 19:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Development

message: The original device (or one of them) was sold to Madame Tussaud (of the wax-museum) and was on display in London until a fire destroyed the museum. I believe the blade is still in existence at the museum. (83.13.39.98 (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The blade, with some burnt wood attached, survived the 1925 fire at the London Tussauds. It is currently on display at the Hollywood Tussauds, Los Angeles. 31 January 2011  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.76.158 (talk) 03:42, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Remains of Original Guillotine

message: I have read somewhere that miniguillotine was used to kill rats on board the Shuttle. Any source ? Hektor (talk) 10:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Space guillotine

message: I think this article's history section might benefit from an image from a woodcut in 1577 which shows the execution of an Irishman named Murcod Ballagh in 1307 under a device that looked remarkably like a guillotine. A google of Murcod Ballagh and Guillotine has all these results, and plenty more information about it in histories of the guillotine. An image of this 1577 woodcut can be seen here. 87.38.42.55 (talk) 10:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Murcod Ballagh's execution in 1307 

message: How dull/sharp are the blades?Asdfjkl1235 (talk) 03:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: They were very, very sharp, to ensure the blade cut through on the first try, considering the guillotine was originally devised to supersede other decapitation methods, such as that by axe. Pschati (talk) 10:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  How dull/sharp are the blades? 

message: The article barely went over the fact that this machine was designed for a more painless death, compared to the previous form of capital 1 punishment, hanging. I can't find anywhere I can add this information. Kata89 (talk) 15:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It reads: "Sensing the growing discontent, Louis XVI banned the use of the breaking wheel.[3] In 1791, as the French Revolution progressed, the National Assembly researched a new method to be used on all condemned people regardless of class. Their concerns contributed to the idea that capital punishment's purpose was simply the ending of life instead of the infliction of pain.[3]" in the article. If you have a reliable source for it, you can add it somewhere in or after that sentence. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  We're missing something 

message: An article that you have been involved in editing, Use of the guillotine in Paris, has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going , and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Pschati (talk) 10:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge discussion for [[Use of the guillotine in Paris]]

message: I am seeing the caption "The execution of Robespierre".  The same picture appears in the Wikipedia article about (Maximilen) Robespierre, but on THAT page there is an additional remark that the beheaded man is actually Couthon, with Robespierre sitting nearby in a cart.  And on that entry's associated Talk page, I am asking if that is referring to the headless body still on the scaffold (with severed head being displayed by executioner); question is because the picture has another headless body nearby on the ground.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 15:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robespierre-execution sketch 

message: Seems fanciful considering Cranach the Elder depicted the same machine hundreds of years before its supposed invention during the Revolutionary French period.  You can see this machine depicted in his print of the beheading of John.
I guess this probably counts as original research, so perhaps we have to wait until a properly qualified academic notices this, writes a paper, gets it reviewed and published, and then finally a Wkipedian editor discovers the paper forty five years later in a disused bathroom with a sign on the door reading 'Beware of the Leopard.'
Or somebody could review this.
Sukiari (talk) 08:30, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is probably the decapitation of Saint John also, but here is the martyrdom of Saint Matthias by Cranach the Elder: https://www.artic.edu/artworks/45762/saint-matthias-from-the-martyrdom-of-the-apostles Barbatus (talk) 15:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seems fanciful considering Cranach the Elder depicted the same machine... 

message: The photo of Languille's execution is modified from an original that did not include any people in the frame. Source: http://allkindsofhistory.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/some-experiments-with-severed-heads/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.14.43 (talk) 03:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Languille execution photo 

message: The dimensions of the Halifax Gibbet are curious: It is "fifteen feet" high, but the blade weighs "3.5 kg." One would expect that both measurements would be English or metric, not a mixture. Considering the century, metric is unlikely. Converting 3.5 kg to pounds yields 7.7 lb, to the same number of significant digits. Does the original source say "7.7 lb"; 7.5 Lb."; 8 lb"? I'd guess that the original source is some edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica (perhaps 1911), but I don 't know how to look it up. Is there some senior Wikipedian (perhaps 12 years old?) who can look?
Donfbreed2 (talk) 07:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Dimensions

message: 'The Halifax Gibbet was a monolithic wooden structure consisting of two wooden uprights, capped by a horizontal beam, of a total height of 15 feet.' - how can three pieces of wood be 'one-stone'-ic?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.177.229 (talk) 10:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to ask the same. I guess one line of reply would be that "monolithic" is now used with a figurative sense to imply massiveness and solidity. But, even so, it doesn't seem to apply here: the three beams simply form part of a hollow rectangle, which is not monolithic either literally or figuratively. Sjwells53 (talk) 13:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Massive" is probably a more appropriate word. Acroterion (talk) 13:43, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Gibbetish

message: For whatever it's worth, Alexandre Dumas pere, in his essay on the Cenci, describes the machine used to execute Beatrice Cenci and Lucrezia Petroni. The details he gives of it make it sound very much like the guillotine, and also like the Halifax machine. If someone who knows the sources can lend a hand, we might be able to add quite a bit to the prehistory of the machine.
Poihths (talk) 15:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Predecessors of the guillotine 

message: Until I read this article I was always under the impression that this device had been named for its inventor, Joseph-Ignace Guillotin.  But according to the article Guillotin was not the inventor; Antoine Louis and Tobias Schmidt were the coinventors.
Why, then, was the device not called the "Louis" or the "Schmidt" or some combination of the two?
How did it come to be named after Guillotin?
The article gives no clue.
There is a section "Etymology" which gives that information.  I don't understand why your question is here. The machine had been called a "Louisette".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.47 (talk) 18:01, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "Guillotine"? 

message: I've got a clear recollection of either Giscard d'Estaing or Mitterrand reintroducing the Guillotine while I was at university, 1978-1981. Can anyone clarify that?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.52.65 (talk) 11:06, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  dates of usage? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Far-right politicians in France claimed to reintroduce the Guillotine for terrorists. Should this be recorded to this article? Source:   －yhynerson1 (talk) 12:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guillotine on [[ISIL|terrorists]] 

message: There are a number of paragraphs scattered throughout the article that have no citations whatsoever. —howcheng  {chat} 07:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  this article needs more references 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The caption says 1789 to 1821, but maybe 1789 is a typo for 1798 which is a date consistent with other sources. Masonmilan (talk) 17:22, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates of Luxembourg Guillotine