Talk:Out-of-place artifact

message: The Shroud of Turin section is poorly sourced and doesn't establish it as an out-of-place artifact. The "photographic negative" description doesn't seem to appear anywhere besides the fairly obscure cited source, Allen 1993, and our Shroud of Turin article doesn't focus on it being "out of place" for its time period. The controversy is whether it was an authentic burial cloth or a medieval forgery, not whether it was "out of place" for its time period. In fact even Allen 1993 proposes a way that it could have been made with medievel photographic technology.
The section was originally copied from History of photography and was later deleted from that article due to lack of support from reliable sources. I propose that we do the same here. –dlthewave ☎ 18:12, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi , just saw this, apologies for not coming upon it (a ping would have worked since I was the editor who undid your text removal). The shroud fits the first sentences of the page perfectly: "...is an artifact of historical, archaeological, or paleontological interest found in an unusual context, which challenges conventional historical chronology by its presence in that context. Such artifacts may appear too advanced for the technology known to have existed at the time." In short, the technology involved in the negative image is the "out-of-place" aspect, not the shroud itself. The shroud has a long sourced and documented history of existence as an artifact, and then, in 1898, the "real" image of a tortured human body was discovered on the shroud as a photographic negative, technology which wasn't available throughout the span of its centuries-long notoriety. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:57, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Hello . The ancient cloth, luckily enough already kept as an artifact and honored by the Catholic Church for many centuries, was "the place". The "out-of-place" designation which fits this page's criteria "Such artifacts may appear too advanced for the technology known to have existed at the time" was brought into view when the photographer developed his photographic plate. When he saw the image, and this is sourced on the pages, he was so "startled" that he almost dropped it which would have lost the plate (which is a historical artifact itself). I'd disagree that mentioning this is original research, as it's an obvious fact that the photographic negative brings forward something which is inexplicable, cannot be duplicated, has no right to exist yet here it is, and so out-of-place capable that photography and the chemicals involved in photography had to be invented in order for it to be found. The inadvertent 1898 proof, using modern technology, that this is not an artwork in the definition that society and encyclopedias place on and require of 'artworks', fits 'out-of-place' to a T. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say I don't think this belongs. The main theories are that it is a) a miraculous relic or b) a fake. The theory that it is some sort of (accidental?) early photograph using a technical process seems a poor third. Johnbod (talk) 16:16, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello . It was discovered by a technical process, photography and chemicals used for developing a photo, but nobody is saying it is itself an early photograph although it certainly simulates one. Nobody really knows just what it is (and I think it being an artwork has been ruled out, so "fake" doesn't cover what is being faked). The wording "found in an unusual context" seems to apply, as this was a totally unexpected discovery when photographed. It fits the page criteria: "...an artifact of historical, archaeological, or paleontological interest found in an unusual context, which challenges conventional historical chronology by its presence in that context. Such artifacts may appear too advanced for the technology known to have existed at the time". These different good faith takes on the meaning of the criteria as being applied or not applied to the shroud seems to create an impasse. RfC anyone? If so, can we agree on wording? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:35, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: How about "Should the Shroud of Turin be included in Out-of-place- artifact article?" –dlthewave ☎ 13:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally think that the Shroud of Turin is the best example of an "unusual artifact" on the OOPArt page. Extensive research has not yet revealed how the 600+ years old image was made. The artifact remains unusual, if not unique: theories about the image-making process involve very unusual processes and researchers have not yet managed to create a convincing copy. Negative images were at least a little unusual before the advent of photography, but somehow it is hard to find a source stating a lack of detailed pre-photographic negative images (despite being interested in this for years, as of yet I have only found evidence of one other clear example, presumably a "punch engraving" print from the 17th century). There has been quite some criticism concerning art historian Nicholas Allen's theory about a possible proto-photographic process, but the fact that the shroud image resembles a faint photographic negative and is much clearer when inverted has not been contested since that aspect was discovered in 1898. There's no lack of reliable sources for the existence of Allen's well-published theory, but the wikipedian who deleted the info on History of photography apparently couldn't stand any mention of the idea on that page, while others presumably didn't deem it important enough (although plenty of authors have included a reference in books about the history of photography). Joortje1 (talk) 16:05, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shroud of Turin 

message: Tutankhamun's meteoric iron dagger was found in the tomb of the pharaoh who reigned from circa 1334 to 1325 BC, while no Egyptian archaeological evidence exists of iron smelting until the 6th century BC (according to info gathered from the wikipedia page).
An article on ranker.com says "This dagger seems to predate when we thought humans had the technology to forge iron products."
This gives rise to some questions about when an artifact can be deemed OOP. The wikipedia page explains that iron was rare at the time, but that several other early iron artifacts are known, and that it is theorized that meteorites may have been the source of ore for those early examples (apparently only needing to be hammered, not smelted, see also Ferrous metallurgy). The dagger is just one of 19 iron objects from the tomb (others not yet tested to see if they contain meteorite ore) and may have been a gift from a Mitanni king. The page about the dagger also describes some complications for researchers in getting oppurtunities to test more artifacts, thus resulting in the lack of strong conclusions about early (meteorite) iron objects. "Determining iron's occurrence throughout the very ancient past – such as obtaining, smelting, and introducing into various civilizations – has been an ongoing topic of scholarly study and discussion. From the late Neolithic era to the Bronze Age, ancient Eastern Mediterranean cultures used iron infrequently." 
I reckon that the OOPA page should not mention every rare artifact that seems one of several early infrequent predecessors of the results from a technology that became common later on (and/or are made from rare material). Then again, it can be said that the extraterrestrial source of the metal makes it out-of-place per definition (although iron is "by mass, the most common element on Earth" and "mainly deposited by meteorites in its metallic state, with its ores also being found [in the earth's crust]", I suppose obtaining a lump big enough to hammer into a dagger makes it unique nonetheless). If mentioning the dagger on the OOPA page is considered, maybe the attention should instead/additionally be directed towards the meteoric iron beads from a 3400BC Gerzeh grave (which are also mentioned on the wikipedia page about the dagger.
Maybe such artifacts warrant the creation of a new subcategory on this page? I suppose Pseudodon shell DUB1006-fL would be another interesting candidate for the category of remarkably early artifacts (there's a circa 400,000 year gap between the markings on this shell and the next known markings made by a humanoid), for instance. Joortje1 (talk) 11:28, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Johnbod (talk) 15:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tutankhamun's meteoric iron dagger