Talk:Mandala (political model)

message: The origins of the system are a gap in my knowledge; I've come across hints that it may be connected to the Chinese or Indian systems, but Thongchai seems to say the term itself is of modern introduction.   I don't know to what extent it existed under the Indianised states (Angkor and before).   I have the impression that Angkor was more unitary, and that the others were too shadowy for us to know much about them. Markalexander100 03:27, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

message: The mandala system was first described in the Arthashastra although sadly our article says nothing about it. See From Sacred Origins to Sovereign Affairs in Traditional Southeast Asia. The article needs expansion. The mandala system is a modern heuristic, but it is used to describe the devaraja cult in the Indianised kingdoms of Southeast Asia, instead of being specific to the region the article describes. The Sultanate of Malacca has been described as a type example of the mandala state. Southeast Asian history articles have a common flaw of focusing on national histories, even though the contemporary national borders are of relatively recent origin. (Anon)
:I don't understand your point.  You say "the mandala state was regionwide"- assuming you mean the southeast Asia region, yes. That's what the article says.  If you're thinking of a larger region, which region? Malacca, the last time I looked was also in southeast Asia.  Your link doesn't work, by the way. HenryFlower 11:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  the mandala state was regionwide 

message: "The mandala system was first described in the Arthashastra although sadly our article says nothing about it."
Now it points to Tambiah's work. I'll add some citations to Wolters, Chutintaranond, Lieberman's work, and Stuart-Fox.
The whole page might read a little bit better if the essentials were picked out of the defining works. Wolters revisted this idea that he largely created, with help from Tambiah and the Arthasastra, in 1999 right before he died. In the revised edition of his book, he reviews most of the progress in applying the term "mandala" to actual history since his original writing of 1982.
(Jonfernquest 17:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indian Origins and Citations 

message: I've never seen the phrase "mandala system" even once. Naming it "Mandala (Southeast Asian history)" is really more accurate.
The historians who really make productive use of the concept like Sunait Chutintaranond, use the concept to help show that political structure was not as unified and centralized as previously thought. 
The criteria I would use as to whether this article is accurate or not, is whether I would use it for a university class on Southeast Asian history or not, and I wouldn't. Why? It has to focus on what a "mandala" is and what it is not. Mandalas are a lot like the segmentary state in Indian history and like forms of social organization in political anthropology that come before the state like the chieftainship. It is not a universally accepted and used metaphor or idea. Lieberman does not use it. 
I'll change the name, but the previous synonym will still exist.
(Jonfernquest 04:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change: Mandala (Southeast Asian history) 

message: "The term mandala in this context is of modern origin; as it was the standard system of the time, its practitioners did not require terminology to discuss the system or to contrast it with others."
I cut this because it is too long-winded. It's a model of Southeast Asian history that was originated in about 1982 with roots that go back deeper.
"This pattern of power relationships is said to have existed between the states of south-east Asia until the advent of European cultural and political colonisation in the mid-19th century."
I cut this because it isn't true. According to Stuart-Fox (1998) the Mandalas of Laos-Lan Xang ended with the conquest by Siam which was an indigenous Southeast Asian kingdom. Likewise, the the expansionary warfare of the Burmese state (c. 1539-1630) put an end to many of the mandalas in the Shan states.   
The contributions of Wolter, Ajaan Sunait, and Thongchai Witichakun have to be made clearer with citations. (Jonfernquest 02:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cutting and Simplifying 

message: The list of states needs revision. Righty now it's just a list of contemporary Southeast Asian countries without mention of Srivijaya, any of the Javanese kingdoms, or historical formations like Champa or the Khmer empire. Alan 01:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of states 

message: I found this article did not make clear who Tambiah and Lieberman are. Tambiah already has an article, so I linked it. Lieberman at present does not, so I foot-noted his official bio. As Tambiah is cited only indirectly as cited by Lieberman, I sorted out in just what pub it most likely was in. I haven't read it myself, but as it is e-pub'd, I'll try to get it. I've already found out his study goes far beyond SEA:
*Genre/Form:  	Electronic books
Additional Physical Format: 	Print version:
*Lieberman, Victor B., 1945-
Strange parallels.
New York : Cambridge University Press, 2003-
(DLC) 2002071481
*Material Type: 	Document, Internet resource
Document Type: 	Internet Resource, Computer File
All Authors / Contributors: 	Victor B Lieberman
*Find more information about:
ISBN: 	9786610160440 6610160449 0511119283 9780511119286 0511071752 9780511071751
OCLC Number: 	252482354
Description: 	1 online resource (v. <1->)
Contents: 	v. 1. Integration on the mainland.
Series Title: 	Studies in comparative world history.
Responsibility: 	Victor Lieberman.
*Abstract:
This ambitious work has two novel goals: to overcome the extreme fragmentation of early Southeast Asian historiography, and to connect Southeast Asian to world history. Combining careful local research with wide-ranging theory Lieberman argues that over a thousand years, each of mainland Southeast Asia's great lowland corridors experienced a pattern of accelerating integration punctuated by recurrent collapse. These trajectories were synchronized not only between corridors, but most curiously, between the mainland as a whole, much of Europe, and other sectors of Eurasia. He describes in detail the nature of mainland consolidation - which was simultaneously territorial, religious, ethnic, and commercial - and dissects the mix of endogenous and external factors responsible. Here, then, is a fundamentally original analysis not only of Southeast Asia, but of the pre-modern world.--Publisher description.
--Pawyilee (talk) 11:33, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: I don't start articles, myself, but maybe someone will be inspired to start one for Victor B. Lieberman after reading this review at Amazon.com. --Pawyilee (talk) 11:53, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange parallels 

message: Southeast Asian political model redirects to the section that initially constituted the whole article, to simplify linking from articles that want only the original. --Pawyilee (talk) 14:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southeast Asian political model 

message: Whatever the heck happened to the new section? Whoever boldly cut it out without discussion better put it right back where and how it was, then come here to discuss why it doesn't belong in the lede. I might agree with that, and could agree whit its being moved to the end, since it is deep history. Simply whacking it out equates to what Vandals did to Rome. --Pawyilee (talk) 16:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you take a look at the article history, you'll be able to see the edit summary which stated: "Reverted to 20 May version - this article is about the Southeast Asian political model described by Wolters in 1982. Rajamandala may be appropriate as a separate article." --Paul_012 (talk) 18:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: My bandwidth does not allow me to peruse article histories casually. Hatnote_talk addresses that with respect to cell-phone uses similar charged, so I propose we resolve this with new subjects, below.--Pawyilee (talk) 03:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  New section 

message: 
:There being no objection, I put the hatnote on the article, though I really prefer that Rajamandala be merged write back here. --Pawyilee (talk) 16:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hatnote proposed 

message: Today's disambiguation does not afford a fix the the very first complaint on this talk page, which can best be resolved by not being ambiguous in the first place. Merge Rejamandala back here where it belongs. I would put it last as the historical precedent, but write now this is costing me time AND money better spent elsewhere, the same reason I bailed out on trying to disambiguate the two different varieties of Banyan merchants related only by a word used in India for merchants and for the Hindu merchant caste that does not include merchants descended from merchants who were merchants before there was a caste system, or a Manadala political model. --Pawyilee (talk) 13:47, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  disambiguation inadequate 

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