Talk:Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Australoid, Capoid/Archive 1

message: Ok... As a coined word it shall be pretty easy for someone to explained why it was coiend to be "capoid" I mean "negroid", "australoid" and "sinoid" are very obvious... But No page in the net put it's simple to explain Capoid's etymology... Can someone add this please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.106.79.228 (talk • contribs) 
:Named after Cape Province, South Africa. --JWB 20:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: CAPOID

message: As far as I've read, there's not much agreement amongst social scientists that racial categories are based on physical characteristics. In fact, afaik, most of the social science literature got over terms like "cacausoid, mongloid, negroid" and so forth by the time of the first world war.
I think that these articles are misleading and inaccurate. I will be VfDing in a couple days unless there are some good explanations for why I'm wrong.
--Defenestrate 15:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bullshit articles about discredited ideas

message: Once again we are doing a wonderful job elaborating on the White people of the subject matter, but we are still stuck at stubbing around with the other groups. Let's not keep the Negroid and Australoid groups stubbed if we can help it. Obviously there many of us that do not consider Dravidians to be "caucasoids", and leaving the "Negroid" stub ambigious in it's reasoning will need to be clarified in order to stop this bias from continuing.
:: You are correct: Dravidians are not caucasoids; the caucasoids invaded India. --71.56.143.145 17:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

message: "19th century anthropologists": The article should have less vague information about this. Did the -oid names for races really have any popularity before Coon? Race has a good discussion of the 20th century history of racial concepts, which should be extended further back.Coon is a single source and one that has not been in very good repute for the last few decades. He should be listed as one historically occuring POV
 says that "Caucasoid" is not in current scientific use. I would agree with this impression. It might be better to use less present tense in the article.
"50% of anthropologists use sub-races": Race says that only about half of anthropologists even subscribe to any sort of concept of race, so there seems to be a discrepancy here. Again, cites are needed. I don't know of any use of the Coon subrace terms by current scientists. On the web, they seem to be found on websites of racist groups, and on discussion boards. Coon is a single source and one that has not been in very good repute for the last few decades. He should be listed as one historically occuring POV balanced with other POV.
"Dravidians and Ethiopians are more closely related to Negroid and Australoid peoples than Nordic people": It would be more accurate to say that South Indians and Ethiopians are thought to have ancestry from both Caucasoid immigrants and indigenous (or at least earlier resident) peoples, not necessarily limited to currently surviving Negroid and Australoid types. For example, Capoid features were earlier found much farther north in East Africa. 
--JWB 21:46, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cites or clarification for vague statements 

message: Since these -oid classifications are determined by anthropologically based on skull sizes (and since you seem to follow strictly those skull sizes to categorize the subgroups in the article,) it has been clarified IN the article.
Ethiopians do share genetically more with Kenyans than they do with British and Frenchmen. Whatever DNA markers are being used, and I have discussed this before, are more likely politically chosen and not chosen from a neutral perspective. 
The "Ethiopid" race theory is based on the assumption that the Ethiopians came about independantly of the other Black groups. However, everything else points against that. Firstly their language, and their history. They may be the oldest group in the world, and it's backwards to point to them as a "non-black" Caucasoid group. 
I made sure to indicate the bias by pointing out that African Americans on average are more "caucasoid" in skull and DNA type than Ethiopians. The DNA of Black Americans is more mixed with Europeans, Nordics, and Alpines than the Ethiopian DNA.
I do believe there is a "selective" method of interpretation that's being used here to classify ethiopians and dravidians with Frenchmen and Germans. I officially dispute the neutrality of this article while Dravidians and Ethiopians are placed in classification with the Caucasoids. The fact is that the skill variations in Caucasoids is far too wide to be considered distinct.
Although I do respect the earlier references from which the skull information is based, I am of the viewpoint that the source material itself is not a sensible way to classify the groupings. For example, I know that ancient Jewish skulls are very different in shape and size from a European skull. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=852&letter=C
The Egyptian and Ethiopian also show more similarity with skull shape and size based on how you interpret the results. 
http://www.africawithin.com/diop/origin_egyptians.htm
You can either interpret wide varieties of skulls as Caucasoid, and narrow the Negroid group into the typical "prothagism" or "projected facial profile", or you can find a more sensible way to classify Caucasoids that is consistent with how the group is really established, not how it "should" be. The famous Omo skulls in Ethiopia show the same characteristics as the "Negroid" types and those are 200,000 years old. 
I believe that there is a better way to handle this article, because classifying Ethiopians as Caucasoid is simply not realistic, and is only done to take the civilized history of Ethiopia outside of the Black African circle and set it within a Eurocentric sphere.
So for example, here is one of the more decepively detailed websites online that seem to show an unbiased comparison of all three groups:
http://www.theoryofuniverse.com/man/races/races-skulls.htm
But if you look at the first pictures at the top, you can see HOW the skulls are situated (not to mention that they are copies, not originals). The negroid skull is situated so that the lower area is closer to the camera than the other two skulls, therefore it exaggerates the prothagism, or the lower profile, as to "prove" visually. Also notice that the Negroid skull is situated in the profile at an angle, and also notice that the mongoloid skull has the same slanted cranial profile.
SO what needs to be done is more balanced approach and less intent on maintaining a flawed 19th century status-quo.
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*I won't discuss the whole thing with you, I will just show you that ethiopians are closer to caucasoids than to negroids: this is an mtdna plot http://img43.echo.cx/img43/9388/27mh.jpg and this a Y-dna plot http://tinypic.com/5chrhi (Hammer et al., Proc Natl Acad Sci, 2000), here are some other studies using different techniques:
"COL1A2 Study on Amhara and Oromo Ethiopians":"The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position."  Ann Hum Biol. 2002 Jul-Aug;29(4):432-41. 
"Apolipoprotein Study of Ethiopians": "Ethiopians appear to be distinct from Africans and more closely associated with populations of the Mediterranean basin." uman Biology 75.2 (2003) 293-300
As you can see, classifying Ethiopians as negroids is not at all realistic, they are a mix of negroid and caucasoid where their pigmentation and hair texture is negroid but their skull is caucasoid.
--Agurzil 12:06, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency 

message: Since Ethiopia is not listed in Coon's directory, it needs to be taken out of here. DNA analysis does not conclude that Ethiopians are more closely related to British than they are to Kenyans. Take it out.
:Huh? Who ever claimed such a thing? Bastie 13:15, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not as an argument for or against, but Ethiopia actually is listed in Coon's directory (East African Hamitic type). Yom 04:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Take Ethiopia out 

message: The other writer tried to affirm that Ethiopians are considered "caucasoid" because even though they show negroid traits like kinky hair, black skin, cultural identity, and features considered Black (or negroid), their skulls are "caucasoid" in their shape. 
This begs the obvious question: Where are those lightskinned, white looking people with negroid skulls at? Italians, Yemeni, East Indians, Egyptians, and all the other old world people who mixed with Black Africans somehow escaped having "negroid" skulls. Yet again we are reaffirming the old myth "Caucasoids went into Africa, but the Negroids didn't really come out."
I know what is going to be said next "There were negroid skulls and people outside of Africa in early written history, maybe 2%, slaves, and peon henchmen soldiers, but no more than 2%."
This kind of illogical bias has to end. Do not diffuse "caucasoid" to include measurements that encompass people who are obviously mixed. The range of skull shapes flows from a gamut, not from stratified sub-classes. The measuring lines were differentiated to ensure that whites would not be mistakenly classified as negroid, but the opposite has been done for their sake. Obviously Black Africans and East Indians have been classified as Caucasoid because the few or so Europeans whose features are also in the middle (or partly negroid) are offended. 
To make it short or sweet, the slick-Eurocentric method is this: "Tis better to have black caucasoids in Africa, than to have white negroids in Europe"
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*You are writing with your emotions... try to be more objective, 
1-who gives you the right to classify ethiopians as Black? Who? YOU ARE THE ONE deciding to classify them as BLACK, I don't mind if any one classifies himself whatever he wants but one has to be objective, their appearance, their genes shows that their FAR from being Black.
2-It's silly to compare italians to ethiopians, Ethiopians are a stabilized mixed race people, Italians have few negroid admixture and shows in a minority of the population, Coon himself noticed that. 
3-As for egyptians, it's very easy to find negroid influence in them, no one denies that. I guess you are speaking to a wall.
4-Stop propagating lies about afro-americans, they have never been classified as caucasoid, maybe fiew of them have been (which is correct, recombination always gives "pure" types among the mongrels).
Coon includes Aethiopids (not all ethiopians) in the caucasoid Race, that's why I will revert it.
--Agurzil 11:30, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The underlying contradiction 

message: We all can agree that the people of the world are psychologically biased to identify as far away from Black as possible and as close to white as possible, with exceptions mostly in Black Americans. The legacy of slavery and colonialism has caused people, Europeans and non-europeans alike to find ways to get some people who had no real link to Europe to have a allegorical link to some ancient European ancestors. And when I say allegorical I mean it. It's as if the present day experiences of the people, and their history have no meaning other than to somehow reshape a greater "caucasoid" presence. The whole caucasoid "supercluster" is nothing more than an attempt to dehumanize the Equatorial Africans. The thing has everybody in it except Black Africans. And it's to reinforce the darwin-racist ideology that natural selection allowed the Caucasoid to diverge all over the world, while the dumb african remained stagnant and slow. (yeah if that's an emotional response so what, it's accurate, its the underlying meaning and we all know it).
The fact is, you cannot justify this redefinition of Caucasoid to include Ethiopians. They exist wholly within the sphere of Negroid groups and some mixed groups like the Yemeni and southern arabs. There may be some caucasoid admixture but thats not enough to draw this conclusion. This is called hyper-diffusionism. It is similar to using the one-drop rule, but only it's being used to create caucasoids all over the place instead of making anyone black. Keep in mind though, in our world we are driven to one-step-away-from idolizing light skin and european features, not idolizing black features. Racial and social classifications are designed all over Latin America, Middle East and India to safeguard or glorify the "white". One moves 'up' towards a white classifiaction in Brazil and India. Being poor is being "black" in Brazil. 
And yes I know we are talking about "caucasoid" and "skulls", and my response is that this definition is not the widely held definition, and no where in this article is the narrow vision to rely on skulls justified. 
For example, earlier someone mentioned that the hair type and skin color may be "negroid" but since the skulls are NOT negroid, then we should consider them to be caucasoid. Ok fine. Then explain this contradiction by Coon himself:
"The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid. ... Morant shows that the Badarian cranial type is closely similar to that of some of the modern Christians of northern Ethiopia—who incidentally do not show negroid characteristics in the skull—and also to the crania of Dravidian-speaking peoples of southern India. ... On the basis of these racial comparisons, it seems reasonable to suggest that this Badarian physical type may have come from the south, near the headwaters of the Blue Nile. It may represent an early Hamitic racial strain, which persists despite some negroid admixture in Ethiopia and Somaliland to the present day." Coon - The races of Europe. 
It's obvious at this point that Coon is not sure how to classify them and obviously cannot find a consistent or universal method that can stick with the Ethiopian. BUT he tries very hard. You can see the bias at the end "which persists, despite"... oh hopefully those caucasoids in Ethiopia will hold out before it's too late... oh dear!
So let's follow coon consistently "while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established since the hair is definitely not negroid." Ok then neither should a lack of prognathism and nose form suggest a caucasoid tendency, since the hair is definitely negroid. Consistency.
For anyone to come in here and try to put Ethiopians, the oldest Black people on Earth, as Caucasoids is as crafty as Afrocentricists trying to make every other European ethnic group "black". 
Now if you don't see the double standard of that, then you really are confused.
: Perhaps rather than complaining about a possible eurocentrism and misdefinition of negroid, we should find actual anti-black parts in the article. Also, as to the ethiopians, we have a few choices. We can decide that the term Negroid refers to skin and hair colour, or we can decide that it refers to the craniometry. A better approach, however, would be to explain both opinions.
: By the way: the Ethiopians are Caucasoids. Only an ignorant person would think that the term Caucasoid means white; think about the Ayrans in India!!! They are not white, yet you would have to be insane to call them anything but caucasoid. As you can see, I lean toward the anthropometry definition of caucasoid, negroid, australoid, etc.--71.56.143.145 03:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased classification 

message: --------------
-I guess that you have understood nothing to what Wikipedia is, we are not scientists who have to impose our own beliefs to Wiki, we are here JUST to report what scinetists say, What I have done was quoting the work of S.Coon, NOT MY OPININON; if you have another source, mention it along with that of COON, NO ONE WANTS TO KNOW WHAT YOU BELIEVE, YOU ARE NOT AN ANTHROPOLOGIST.
-You still speaking with your emotions, you have yet not presented anything that proves what you say,  I have proven to you that ethiopians are intermeidate just to shed light and remove the statemennt saying that ethipians are pure sub-saharans. I'm not here to prove that Ethipians are caucasoid, I'm here to report what Coon said about Aethiopids, if you think that Coon was mistaken, put a little comment of another anthropologist who says otherwise.
: Exactly, despite the fact that the article is trying hard to be political correct it is not unscientific enough for the bigots, yet. All articles should reflect the different available views. I mean even the views of race deniers and fraudsters like Franz Boas could be presented here.  
-Please Stop your Vandalism.
-have a look at this: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress
--Agurzil 19:17, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: VANDALISM

message: I've pulled the lengthy list of European "subraces" from Coon's book of this name. Besides only covering Europeans and not other Caucasoids, as the Carleton S. Coon article notes, "The book relied on an extremely typological view of race which was, even in its time, becoming seen as very much out of date." If anyone wants the list, it should go in another article.--JWB 22:33, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Races of Europe

message: Agurzil - why don't you show some pictures of these skulls? I have looked everywhere online. I do not know if you are an anthropologist yourself or not. If you are, that's one thing. But if you are not, then you are in no better position than I am. You are getting too personal and not being consistent with the issue.
Ethiopians are considered intermediate. The problem of placing an intermediate group into Caucasoid is that it erroneously misleads the reader that they are not intermediate. Why put them into Caucasoid instead of Negroid? You didn't even reply to the information I posted, but merely accused me of vandalism. That's your emotion.
Enough of that. Address the issue. How can the Badarians (egyptians) have negroid skulls and still be caucasoid by hair texture, yet the Ethiopians who are intermediate (not even Caucasoid) be Caucasoid despite THEIR hair texture? In any event Coon does not base his classifications on skull shapes alone as I proved by quoting HIM. (It is not "good enough" to make exceptions only when it edifies one's own background).
Secondly, the description of Caucasoid is NOT based on skull shapes alone according to the wide variety of definitions we have access to, and you have shown no evidence as to why we must prove that otherwise.
So I am going to take it out again. YOu complain to the Wikipedia moderators or whomever has the power to influence. I WANT to see if they will react as biasedly as you do. I really really like Wikipedia, but if this is going to be another 'official' way to glorify white people by distorting history and pre-emptively shutting out legitimate criticism then I really want to know now.
Ethoipians are not Caucasoids. That's the bottom line. It's rediculous to try to prove otherwise. SOME, SOME show intermediate and lean towards Caucasoids but they are a MINORITY, not an equal 'third' or 'half' of the Ethiopian population. We are not going to play politics here. Show some pictures (and no, finding the one picture of one Caucasoid ethiopian saying that alone is proof isn't going to cut it either). I will do the same, I will post legitimate, and accurate pictures (copyrights withstanding of course)
And already biased websites should not be used. For example websites that support Ethopians are Caucasoid by writers that also support that IQ's are determined by race should not be used here.
------------------------------------------
If you did not notice, you are debating with coon, whether you agree with him or not is not the subject of the article, you can do that in various discussion boards.
The question is: Did coon include the Aethiopid type into the caucasoid race? the answer is Yes. This is an important information which needs to be added.
I will not reply to any of your messages because it is irrelevent, whether I'm convinced or not, Coon's opinion has to be mentioned. Again, if you know another anthropologist who classifies the Aethiopid type as any thing else than Caucasoid, mention it. This is an encyclopedia; not an internet message board.--Agurzil 22:57, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: For the last time, stop deleting the work of S.Coon. Privide another source but do not argue about coon's wrok. --Agurzil 20:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleting Coon's work? 

message: This is what Arguzil is deleting from the page:
"The [pre-Dynastic] Badarian type represents a small branch of the Mediterranean racial group. ... The Badarian skulls are more prognathous than those of their successors, and have higher nasal indices. ... In fact, while the prognathism and nose form would suggest a negroid tendency, this cannot be established, since the hair form is definitely not negroid." Coon - The races of Europe.
Why is Arguzil accusing me of deleting coon's work?
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If every one were to post supposed contradictions of Scientists, Wikipedia will be transformed into a discussion board, quote another source that says the contrary or just leave the article as it is, you can speak about coon's Biases in his article, feel free to do so.--Agurzil 10:44, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coon's work deleted by Arguzil 

message: The Physical anthropology article is linked from this article. Therefore it should not be necessary to define physical anthropology in this article. --JWB 20:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Physical anthropology]] 

message: I like what has been added JWB. Thanks. I simply wanted the bias to be addressed. It makes no sense to pretend to be objective when the classifications are so obviously skewed to favor whatever the status-quo of the time wants to politically gain. At least you made note of that in your updates.
Thanks, I'm glad I was able to summarize some of your POV. I'm trying to follow Wikipedia's Neutral point of view guidelines and have all viewpoints concisely represented. I added more about Coon and his classification at Race (historical_definitions) which you might want to look at. The debate here has been informative and I think some of it could contribute to other pages where the level of detail would be more appropriate than here. --JWB 20:16, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Satisfied. 

message: Can you tell me where is that classification from? --SM 11:56, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Division of the caucasians" 

message: The first paragraph of this article seems to indicate that physical anthropologists, as a group, recognize racial classification (particularly the of the -oid variety). According to this statement by the AAPA (statement on race), no such recognition is evident (two extracts follow: "Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past." "The geographic pattern of genetic variation within this array is complex, and presents no major discontinuity. Humanity cannot be classified into discrete geographic categories with absolute boundaries.") Unless contradictory evidence can be cited for this claim that physical anthropologists recognize this racial classification, I will change the wording.--Ove 23:09, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please make sure the edit won't create new revert war, recently there were few on these topics. Pavel Vozenilek 01:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Physical anthropology revisited 

message: Could someone knowledgeable copyedit the new additions, especially the virtually unknown word "sprachbund" (3 references by Google) and going off-topic arguing over concept of races. Thanks. Pavel Vozenilek 20:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sprachbund  - asking for copyedit 

message: Although I agree with most of the recent edit, I do not like the intro sentence: "Caucasoid describes some anthropological traits" etc. Caucasoid does not describe traits (nor are these traits anthropological - maybe morphological or physical). The term describes individuals with such supposed traits, and more precisely it is used in a system of racial classification (because saying it describes individuals is a reification of the classificatory system). Consequently, I will revert back to the previous intro sentence in a few days unless someone has additional comments. --Ove 19:54, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Traits vs. classification 

message: Could whoever wrote the section on skeletal and genetic traits please provide some references. In particular, I think it will be difficult to find a reputable source for this claim: "may be inherited from Neanderthaloid admixture." Also, could whoever wrote this sentence, please make some changes; it does not make much sense: "Caucasoids also possess a Western Eurasian dental pattern, where the frequency of dental traits that are observed in other major races is greatly reduced." --Ove 22:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  skeletal and genetic traits 

message: Many anthropologists classify Dravidians as a Caucasoid group preceded by Australoids meaning that Dravidians are basicly a half Caucasoid half Australoid race. When the Aryans migrated to this region they most likelly mixed with the Dravidian people meaning Dravidians are most likelly mostly caucasoid.
:Darvidians are Australoid in origin but now with heavy caucasoid influence --Digitalseal 22:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: About South Asian Dravidians

message: "This site, which tests people's anecstrial dna classifies Middle Easterners as Caucasoids, and they are correct becuase the scientific definition of Caucasoid includes European, Middle Eastern, some North Africans and South Asians. --Gramaic | Talk 05:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that sentence is phrased as a circular argument which makes no sense. What I think he's trying to say is that the DNA evidence of similarities between those peoples agrees with the definition of Caucasoid which was originally made by physical anthropologists.--JWB 04:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

text: This article does not make those statements. It was rewritten to avoid as much controversy as possible. --JWB 07:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circular argument - the foundation of the problem 

message: From Coon's work we have:
East African: In the deserts and highlands of Ethiopia, Eritrea, and the Somalilands is found a concentration of several related Mediterranean types, mixed in varying degrees with negroes. To the west these partial whites border on Sudanese negroes; to the southwest the partially Hamitic tribes of Kenya and Uganda form art extension of the peripheral Mediterranean racial area. To the north, the Beja-Bisharin group of Hamitic-speaking nomads connect the East African Hamitic-speaking peoples with their wholly white Egyptian and Berber relatives of North Africa. - http://racialreality.sitesled.com/subraces.html
Coon obviously is motivated by his own bias, not science. "partial whites border on Senegalese negroes???" KENYA and UGANDAN people are an extension of the peripheral Mediterranean racial area??? And of coruse the Khosian types are not Black either. So what do we have? A couple of villages in Central and West Africa as the only "Black" people remaining. It's rediculous! And if we can finally understand, its motivated by prejudice and self-aggrandizement (My race is the best race attitude) on coon's part.
Here is another example: 
Caucasoid
The Caucasoid group is the most 'varied' of the three racial groups. Modern Caucasoids are very varied, even though they are descended from the same group of ancestors. They range from the fair-skinned people of north-west Europe to the widely varying peoples of the Indian subcontinent. Their hair may be either wavy or straight, and the diameter varies widely too. The color ranges from black to a pale blond that is almost white, including just about every possible shade in between.  
NOtice how that website does little to elaborate on the other two hair types.  The psychology is not that complicated. If you want to feel good about yourself you are going to promote yourself in the most positive spin you can. "most varied" "very varied" "even though", etc. This isn't racism, but it is a misunderstanding. Obviously this definition forces ANYONE to be possibly caucasoid, and if you read further, you can see, as predicted, the "African" hair type is not described in it's range, nor really is the Asian type. So the white reader, and writers are predisposed to biasedly make their own race seem more flexible and interesting and complex. And on the same token, they simply or try to simplify the African and Asian. Thus, here is why today we have the Caucasoid group being "very diverse" and the Negroid being very "specialized". It's psychology, not science. Same mentality as coon.
Oh and there is another reason. Back in those days, whites were motivated by purity. There was the need to make sure the European was represented as purely Caucasoid (with no mixture). In order to do that, they had to expand the Caucasoid group to allow the mediterranean and other "intermediates" in order to make the European seem as unmixed as possible.
If anyone uses photoshop, you know that when you take a picture, you can slide the output levels of the image to make the overall image look darker or lighter than it originally is, this does not really distort the RELATIVE colors, but just how they overall come out. In the same manner, the coons and others which hold on to the old theory, they had to adjust the labeling scheme of the human anthropological range, in order to make sure the "middle ground" was as far from Europe as possible.
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How are Caucasoids "varied" and Negroid's aren't? I always thout Negroid ment black and caucasoid ment being related to the Caucasus. Just in terminology Negroid is more varied.Both the terms though, are bull.
--Vehgah 17:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Popular definition of Caucasoid 

message: After all in 1935, how would it look for an anthropologist like coon to say, "The Mediterranean type is an intermediate mixture of Negroid and Caucasoid, exhibiting the same traits in hair, and skin tone and skull shape as a mulatto, one whose parents is purely negro and purely nordic. The Italians, Egyptians and Greeks exhibit the same physical appearance of a person half black and half white. Their skull shapes are closer in resemblance to a negro/caucasian mulatto than to either of the puer parent groups." There would have been riots all over the states.  I do believe this is the point that will put an end to all of this Caucasoid nonsense  --68.60.55.162 06:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The nail in the coffin 

message: I believe that now people are realizing the unscientific backings of the term Caucasoid.
Apparently we are forgetting the major connotations of the word Negroid. It implies that the people under this classification are dark skinned, and attempts to attribute a certain skull type to this name. But let’s look at why this is simply unscientific and down right nonexistent. There is an illusion that all “black” Africans look similar, which is laughable at best. Africa and all of its dark ethnic groups vary not just down from tribe to tribe, but from person to person. I find it humorous that they would attempt to call Ethiopians “Caucasoid” just because of their skull shape, and hair texture. If that was the case then half of the “black” people in America would be labeled Caucasoid. What we have here is an attempt to segregate certain black Africans from the rest of the world even further; to label them as “monkeys” and the rest of the world as “man”, which is clearly an agenda.
Let’s look at some pictures.
 1
 2
3
4
5
6
7
8 
9
All of these people are of a certain group of Africans, but look very different, even between them. If you were to do the same to the people of Europe, you would see the same amount of diverseness. So that means that race is not set to a particular feature, hair texture or appearance. Ethnicity is a cultural, linguistic, and rather abstract term, and cannot be applied to skull shape, or nose shape; because no one knows their full biological heritage. What we have here is a corruption of understanding, and a corruption of science. Appearance is not a scientific means of classification for the simple fact that appearance is not set in stone. Babies skulls change and are shaped. Environment and conditions play a part in appearance as well. Genes are personal and not universal. Caucasoids, Negroids, and Mongoloids do not exist. Our physical differences are far too complicated to be put in such primitive umbrella terms. Science is not pick and choose.
It is my opinion that Ethiopian people may have given their traits to "Caucasoids", with some kind of migration.
--Vehgah 23:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Term Caucasoid is Slowly Becoming Less Constrictive in Order to Segregate Certain Groups of Africans from the Rest of the World. 

message: here
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:The first Homo Sapiens where Africans so yes.Robwi 02:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did "Caucasoids" get their traits from a certain group of Black people? 

message: What makes one to be considered caucasoid?
: The people native to Europe, West Asia, South Asia and North Africa(yes, north africans are not black) and parts of Central Asia. They are the Caucasoids, this is mostly based on skull features Robwi 05:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's get one thing straight. Black != Negroid, and Caucasoid != White. Yom 03:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is Caucasoid? 

message: North Africans are predominantly Caucasoid according to gene research --Digitalseal 13:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Africans and genes 

message: Since when were Caucasoids indigenous to sub-saharan africa einstein? And why do we need to put Carleton S. Coon's outdated bullshit in the article? I thought anthropology has moved forward from the days of the Third Reich? Peace out. 168.8.230.251 13:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anthropology has moved on from the days of the Third Reich. But it has moved on by abandoning the concept of "Caucasoid." This article is about a word. But the word is no longer used in peer-reviewed work. So in order to explain how the word was once used in science, we must reach into the past for examples. For an article with a similar dilemma, see Piltdown Man. On the other hand, if you can find any recent peer-reviewed scholarly work in physical anthropology that supports the term "Caucasoid" please, please insert it. Any scholarly source on this would be eagerly welcomed. -- Frank W Sweet 15:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hello...

message: Since when did the term caucasiod become obsolete? The term is highly controversial but not obsolete. It is still used today by some but obviously not in its "subspecies" sense. So I will change it so. Zachorious 22:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, if you can cite any recent peer-reviewed scholarly work in physical anthropology that supports the use of the term "Caucasoid" please, please insert it. Any scholarly source on this would be eagerly welcomed. I certainly do not want to give the impression that no current scientist supports the use of the term "Causacoid" if in fact any scientist does. If you know of one, please, please cite his or her work. -- Frank W Sweet 01:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you. A website is not a peer-reviewed source. We now have plenty of examples of recent use of the terms. Now that people have cited recent peer-reviewed sources, I agree that the terms are in current use. I am still looking for an example of explicit advocacy of the terms (again, in peer-revewed sources, not a mere website). -- Frank W Sweet 11:50, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Caucasoid Obsolete?

message: :"Caucasoid" is not the same thing as American racial categories. Half of the people who would be classified as "Caucasoid" are South Asians who are not considered "white" in the US, and, as you well document, racial identification in America can often flout biological definitions. I have great respect for your work on race in America and welcomed your appearance on Wikipedia, but it does not need to be repeated in detail in every article.
:I am arguing for a short article that briefly describes the term and notes it was most used earlier in the 20th century, and points the reader to the longer articles on race for in-depth discussion of race, and the history and validity of the race concept. --JWB 02:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Connecting to other articles: Race, White(people), etc.

message: What happened? I thought the dispute would be solved but now these articles quality has gone down by so much because of Mr. Sweet's agenda. Why are we merging and deleting 3 different terms? And what happened to those skull pics? I will restore the negroid article at the very least. Merging these terms is like merging all articles discussing dog breeds because they belong to one subspecies. Does that make any sense? No! Zachorious 00:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This Is Silly

message: If we do merge negroid and caucasoid then please make this article of higher quality. Also restore the charactersitics forensic anthropologists use to define negroid and caucasoid. Zachorious 01:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The craniofacial anthropometry criteria for Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid dtermination are still there, and more besides. I have merely split them off to an article titled Craniofacial Anthropometry, which is summarized and linked to from our main article. This is because the terms originally came from craniofacial anthropometry, where they are still used in forensics, but their most common current usage are a euphemisms for terms that were found to be offensive. Hence, there is a distinct difference between the strict technical usage of craniofacial anthropometry skull types and the current usage as proxies for various "race" names. By splitting these two divergent meanings of Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Australoid, Mestizoid, etc., we can describe craniofacial anthropometry in more detail without cluttering the original article, and we can then focus the main article on current usage of the terms. Please bear with me. If the consenus is otherwise, it will be very easy to merge craniofacial anthropometry back into themain article again. -- Frank W Sweet 02:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Because, as JWB explained, we already have a very good (if a bit overgrown) article on the debate over the reality of "Race". There is no need to duplicate it. All we want to do here is explain the origin,meaning and current use of the obsolescent terms: Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Australoid, Mestizoid, etc. -- Frank W Sweet 02:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Elohimgenius that it is important to convey to the reader why usage of the terms of craniofacial anthropometry are in decline--that the concepts for which they are semantic referents simply do not work. But I suggest that it is pedagogically wiser to show him/her, rather than merely tell him/her. Specifically, take a look at Craniofacial_Anthropometry#Challenges, for an example of the style that I am striving for. We do not hit the reader over the head with our conclusions, but let him reach the realization on his own that it simply does not work. -- Frank W Sweet 03:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Which five? Coon's five? Morton's five? Kant's five? Blumenbach's five? the U.S. Supreme Court's five? WP:NOR opposes uncited material that contradicts peer-reviewed scholarly sources. Merely claiming something is not enough. You must also provide a reputable peer-reviewed source (not a URL). -- Frank W Sweet 08:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merging

message: 1. Removed polemic from intro, making intro simply an overview of the sections. -- Frank W Sweet 02:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a bunch of good ideas. By the way, there is a Craniometry article, AKA Cranial anthropometry or Craniology.--JWB 07:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the link! I was not finding anything and I was starting to worry that I would have to write about Samuel Morton all by myself. -- Frank W Sweet 08:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Craniofacial Anthropometry 

message: 1. The way that I see this working is to leave individual pages with the titles "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" but have them be nothing more than short tables of contents (what programmers call a "case construct" or "elseif chain") that direct the reader to one main article or another. All substantive content would go into the main articles. I do not think that we should simply redirect the old "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" articles to the new combined article that discusses the use of obsolescent "racial" terms in physical anthropology because I suspect that many readers click on "Negroid" or "Caucasoid" looking for something else entirely. As an example of what I have in mind, see the current incarnation of Negroid. -- Frank W Sweet 13:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four housekeeping issues 4/18/2006 

message: Since there has been neither discussion nor editing of this article for over a week, I am removing the two tags. -- Frank W Sweet 00:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing "Disputed" and "Cleanup" tags 

message: I've only seen "caucasoid people" with a Prognathism.
--Vehgah 22:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is prognathism "negroid trait" 

message: As this page treats of the terms used in vintage physical anthropology, it should be expanded to speak of the term australoid. The title should be changed to Caucasoid, Negroid, Australoid, Mongoloid.
By the way: what is racist about these terms? I hear people tell me not to say the word 'negroid' because it is racist and offensive, but it is not a slur; it is a term describing the common physical features of people whose ancestors originated in Africa or the islands nigh. People have no problem saying caucasian or caucasoid..... Blast the bloody principle of political correctness...
--71.56.143.145 17:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article should be changed to include information about Australoid 

message: On the whole, a high degree of forensic cranio and anthropometric accuracy is typically achieved, not only between ancestral groups, but also when admixture is evident via ancient blending or a cross.
·	The Attribution of Ancestry for European and Indian (South Asian) Individuals within a Forensic Context. (1999)
Tracy Lee Rogers
·	Phenotypic Evolution of Human Craniofacial Morphology After Admixture: A Geometric Morphometrics Approach. (2006)
Neus Martınez-Abadıas, Rolando Gonza lez-Jose´, Antonio Gonza lez-Martın, Silvina Van der Molen, Arturo Talavera, Patricia Herna´ndez, and Miquel Herna´ndez
·	Anthropological study for the determination of the Europid and Negroid characteristics on facial bones of human fetuses. (2002)
Ferenc Kósa.
The Black, Hispanic and White examples would have varying degrees of genetic mixture inherited from the grandparent and would have identifying cranial markers corresponding to each (living) type. This is a scenario that would not occur. Ledboots 14:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy dispute 

message: Homo Sapien must have evolved from teo types of Neatherthal because caucasoids have flat craniums. Negroid ,capoid,and mongloid have basically the same cranial facail features. Austaloids must have evoled from the same thing Caucasoid evoled from whitch I believe is Neatherthal man. I believe this because Australoid has a large jaw like Neanderthal and nealiy flat faced except in the forhead like a caucasoid. Also Australoid has striaght hair like caucasoids. Negriod ,capoid,and, mongloid must have evoled from a sub-human being such as cro-magnon  because all three of those races have a point at the top of their skulls and all three have the same cranial types. None have flat forheads. It must have took thousands of years of ultravilot light exsposure to get the thick,curly,and rought hair adaptation. Cro-magnum must have been superior to neatherthal because Asians are smater than whites. Some Negroids must have adapted to a cold invironment and thats how asians skin protection from the sun. Asia is the cold environment where Negroids adapted to cold environment and that adaptation change negrod skin which is melinal(skin chemical that protects skin from sunlite and darkends skin) into an oriental skin pigmentation and like Negroids it is polished. Southeast asians are decendants of negroids and Negritos whitch are darkskin mongloids. Why are mongloids smarter than negroids? Its a controvirsial question but its probaly because Its harder to have mental sucess adapting to sunlite in a hot enviroment like Africa. In conclusion Thier are indeed sub-speacies in Homo Sapiens. There are two types of craniums Caucasoids have flat craniums.
What does this have to do with the article? I dont think you have ever even studied anthropology.
1. If caucasoids had flat craniums, they would have square brains and heads. 
2. Negroids, capoids and Australoids do not have the same cranial features, as you can see from both looking at the features and book observing living populations. 
3. Cro-Magnon was believed to be the earliest progenitor of the cacasoid race, and not at all related to negroids, capoids or australoids. 
4. Neaderthal was an evolutionary dead end and is not a direct ancestory of modern humans.
5. The evolution is not so much adaption as it is survival of those who possess traits most 
6. People dont simply "adapt" in an evolutionary sense, rather those who possess certain beneficial traits that contribute to their survival are more likely to pass those traits on until the majority of that population has it. Those who don't have it may simply die off under certain circumstances. This only happens over a great deal of time, in many cases thousands or tens of thousands of years. For example, if a disease infected humans around the world, on the same scale as AIDS, and it only killed people who were right handed, being left handed would be an advantage. Over thousands of years the majority of the population may have it. eventually that trait might become completely replace right handedness altogether.
--Nazrac 16:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Orgin of Homo Sapien Races