Talk:Four Past Midnight

message: Too much speculation in that section, IMHO. Lots42 01:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Library Policeman 

message: Anyone fancy making some full articles for SWSG, Sun Dog  and Library Policeman like the Langoliers has? I've just finished reading SWSG so I could start on that one. ArdClose (talk) 15:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More articles 

message: See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Secret_Window%2C_Secret_Garden&diff=467266660&oldid=456012940
Seems like that page got updated without this one; if that edit is to be trusted, the same should be made here.  Just passing through, so I don't actually know enough about the novella itself to verify which page is correct, but it seems horribly wrong to have the titles switched between the parent and child articles.  Either this page should be updated accordingly, or that page should be corrected.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.152.192.38 (talk) 11:21, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secret Window, Secret Garden content desync? 

message: I've suggested a merge from the articles in individual stories in this book as I don't believe the individual stories are notable enough to warrant their own articles. The one exception might be The Langoliers, but that story's main claim to independent notability is a conversion to a television miniseries, and that miniseries already has its own article.
Like this main article, each of the story articles are unreferenced or weakly referenced. There have also pbeen problems with the content diverging between this article and the individual articles. A merge is likely to help these issues.
If nobody has a subsantive reason to not perform this merge, I'll attempt to perform it in a couple weeks. -- Mikeblas (talk) 15:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have performed the merge described above. -- Mikeblas (talk) 14:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: Moved Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:06, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Four Past Midnight →  – The previous RM was closed as "moved" without consensus. Somehow, the action was reverted due to official use of the uppercasing. Now I must re-propose again; this time I hope involved parties do not do this again. Again, "past" is used as a preposition with just four letters. Per MOS:CT (and WP:NCCAPS), the word should be lowercased. George Ho (talk) 21:35, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

text: Support. Wikipedia has a house style, and a house style makes only sense if it is applied consistently. According to MOS:CT, past should be lowercased here. How the title is capitalized on King's homepage or elsewhere is irrelevant. Darkday (talk) 21:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this is not one of the exceptions mentioned in MOS:CT. "Four" may refer to stories or minutes, but in either case "past" is a preposition with the complement "midnight". Darkday (talk) 20:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

text: It seems the dictionaries do not agree with you. See e.g. Merriam-Webster, Macmillan or Oxford. All mention the usage of "past" as preposition in the context of time. Wiktionary literally says "The preposition past is used to tell the time. The time 5:05 is said as five past five." Darkday (talk) 20:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

text: *Four here is a noun that means four minutes and so past is indeed a preposition. Also our article titles are in sentence case, not title case, so the grammatical function is irrelevant anyway. Past should be lowercase. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 01:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
===Post-RM discussion===
Are there any reliable sources that write Four past Midnight like Wikipedia does? Per WP:NCCAPS, "Because credibility is a primary objective in the creation of any reference work, and because Wikipedia strives to become a leading (if not the leading) reference work in its genre, formality and an adherence to conventions widely used in the genre are critically important to credibility." Wikipedia already looked bad when it briefly had Star Trek into Darkness as the article title despite none of the sources writing it this way. The policy at WP:TITLE states to follow how reliable sources write a title, and a quick look shows no sources writing "past" in lowercase. This lack of fidelity to how sources write the title needs to be revisited in the future. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 20:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

text: FYI, Erik, here are People mag and Jamaica Gleaner. --George Ho (talk) 21:38, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: These are good to note (though I'd favor People as evidence over Jamaica Gleaner). It would be worth evaluating the universe of sources to see what approach is commonly taken, especially in other kinds of reference works (Stephen King and/or horror encyclopedias). Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 16:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The bibliography on Stephen King's website capitalises the P: http://stephenking.com/library/bibliography/index.html.--Wyvern Rex. (talk) 11:04, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 20 November 2015 

message: Are there any reliable sources that write Four past Midnight like Wikipedia does? Per WP:NCCAPS, "Because credibility is a primary objective in the creation of any reference work, and because Wikipedia strives to become a leading (if not the leading) reference work in its genre, formality and an adherence to conventions widely used in the genre are critically important to credibility." Wikipedia already looked bad when it briefly had Star Trek into Darkness as the article title despite none of the sources writing it this way. The policy at WP:TITLE states to follow how reliable sources write a title, and a quick look shows no sources writing "past" in lowercase. This lack of fidelity to how sources write the title needs to be revisited in the future. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 20:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI, Erik, here are People mag and Jamaica Gleaner. --George Ho (talk) 21:38, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: These are good to note (though I'd favor People as evidence over Jamaica Gleaner). It would be worth evaluating the universe of sources to see what approach is commonly taken, especially in other kinds of reference works (Stephen King and/or horror encyclopedias). Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 16:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The bibliography on Stephen King's website capitalises the P: http://stephenking.com/library/bibliography/index.html.--Wyvern Rex. (talk) 11:04, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Post-RM discussion

message: Let's talk brass tacks. The vast majority of all sources use the capital P, as seen not only in the sources used here, but in myriad of more, including some of the most respected and stylistically conservative media, such as this a'New York Times review of King's later collection Full Dark, No Stars. If just about everyone capitalizes it, we must as well, as we have zero right to tell an author that their title of their work is wrong. Absolutely none. It's not a simple style matter where we can choose from equally valid options. One is correct, as chosen by the creator, the only person with the moral right to make that choice, and one is an embarrassment imposed by someone for whom the rules are paramount. Bollocks. oknazevad (talk) 23:12, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Reopening discussion

message: Do we have any information on where this word comes from? Did King make it up, or is it adapted/borrowed from something else?
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 23:16, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Langolier 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I started the last RM in 2017, anyone like to start the next one? I don't think there are any sources that lower case "past". Only Wikipedia. If we follow the sources we're a long way behind and losing sight of the dust trail. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:22, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support opening one, and support the move. The fact that this is literally the only place (outside of Wikipedia mirrors) that lowercases the "Past" proves that this isn't merely a style question, but a matter of the fact that the title of the collection is Four Past Midnight. oknazevad (talk) 20:19, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: And as for evidence, not the capitalization on the cover of this mass market paperback edition: at Amazon]. oknazevad (talk) 17:02, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Evidence is probably not needed for this RM, but is good to have. The only question concerns the "five-letter rule" guideline and common sense exception language. Every guideline's top-template encourages occasional common sense exceptions, it pretty much mandates them. There are no sources which lower-case 'Past' as 'past'. Only Wikipedia. Changing it seems the common sense choice, while keeping it as is makes no sense. Let's see if the esteemed lower case advocate  would care to comment and tell us why this horror show titling of a notable horror book should be allowed to continue, or would he join us in chanting "Build the Past, Build the Past" (a pretty good political slogan). Randy Kryn (talk) 18:10, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion is not different from what I said in the past; not strongly opposed to an exception on this one, but I also think using our house style is fine. Dicklyon (talk) 19:16, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Just seeing where the line is drawn on common sense exception, as this is a clear-cut case of a page falling outside of one guideline but having no sources which can affirm the title choice. 0% sourcing should count for something. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:09, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Past RM (literally)