Talk:Zeibekiko

message: Unfortunately Wikipedia is beginning to become more and more polarized - with adminstrators editing and weilding power with subjectivity and playing to racial sympathies. It's no use merely editing and showing sources for reasons to edit - check this page's contribution history. Mel Etitis just keeps reverting and has even got blocked for doing so. 
In our discussions about changes to this page he has contantly been rude, dismissive and arrogant and has also made accusations towards me, namely that I am supposedly some anon that has accused him of being racist. I don't need to go anon to do that. After my long discussions with him over the dispute of this page, I accuse him openly. His last abusive statement that my English is lacking was completely uncalled for and will not be tolerated by me. I will be making the necessary complaints - our discussions are in the open and for everyone to read. It is suffice to say I am not alone in my views of this person. 
It is a pity, beacuse we should show respect to people of his age and they should at least have amassed some wisdom to show for all their years on this planet. But I guess there always will be exceptions.
Wikipedia is coming a place where the public no longer edit, resembling some mythos of Greek admin Gods on a high Mount Olympus, who come down now and again and allow us few mortals to chip away at their point of view.
Wikipedia isn't here to re-write history. 
I want to write this explanation to go with this page in the hope that if interested people come to read this page, they can get the fullest facts. 
Firstly, please note that there are no sources or citations on this page. Why? Because Mel Etitis has no need for them. He has put his point of view across and won't listen to anyone who shows authority to the opposite. He can just dismiss it as irrelevant and continue to revert.
Secondly, although ALL Zeybek dance forms (be they Greek or Turkish) have a common UNIFYING charateristic form - so that whether you are in the Turkish or Greek Aegean you can immediately recognise it, Mel Etitis refuses to accept this. He promotes that the Greek Zeybek merely originates (in a very far and distant way) to the Turkish folk dance. For this reason (after someone called him up on just removing Turkish music samples of the Zeybek dance from this page) he then decided to open a new and separate page for the information found on the Internet for the Turkish Zeybek dance - merely to perpetuate his own (completely imagined) view that these are in fact two separate dances.
They are not. As with many other articles where Turkish and Greek cultures conjoin - namely folk instruments such as the baglama, food such as lokum and baklava and other folk dances such as the ciftetelli, one wonders why Mel Etitis seems so adamant on seaparating these two dances - especially when I have continously asked him to provide independent sources - and he has constantly failed to do so. 
If one looks at the history of the Greek Zeybek - there are racial and nationalistic sensitivities ar play. Hellenes have for years after they gained their independence from the Ottoman Empire, tried to erase the word Turkish and Ottoman influences from their culture. While the rest of teh Balkans calls the coffee they drink Turkish, Greeks decided to coin a new term. They've done the same for kebabs, too. This is just another show of that feeling.
Mel Etitis explains the onus is on me.
With that mentality then, I can open an article on some mythical subject and argue that no one may change it as now the onus is on them to bring verifiable sources before any amendment can take place.
And then (as is in the power of the Gods) when this information is pooled together - it is just dismissed as irrelevant. 
Finally when you object, as is your right, you are dismissed from the mountain and communication is cut.
Administrators should not only be fair, independent and objective but promote open dialogue, too. Mel Etitis fails on all areas in my book. Deff6 00:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation behind the Zeybek Dance 

message: I cannot understand why a Greek would edit the page to remove additions of music samples. get out of denial and move on. We know you like to think you own Wikipedia and even though most administrators do make us feel this is Greekipedia - it is just yet.  82.145.231.219 02:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Blocked for twenty-four hours for racial abuse (the fact that it involves a childish misattribution of race is irrelevant).  I suggest striongly that, if you want to come back and edit, you change your attitude. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 17:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek Racisim 

message: Zeybek is a Turkic word, a Turkic dance, apparently Zeibekkos is different, so why does the article say Zeibekkos is danced in Turkey but danced MORE and is MORE popular in Greece. What sources are there to back this POV???
p.s Zeybeks are not an ethnic group, they're mountainess warrior rebels who fought against the Greek-invasions in WW1.
:Who cares? Most of these dances are derived from Byzantine Greek origins anyway. Do we bring up the constant Turkish appropriation of Byzantine culture in this respect? No. We don't.
::Correct. A funny thing is that I read somewhere that bouzouki is an instrument which descents from Turkish saz, while in reality all these Turkish instruments like saz, tambur, baglama etc. are based in the Byzantine pandoura (ancient Greek pandouris). The same happens with the dances.
You don't know what the heck are you talking about ? Saz, bağlama, kopuz these are all known in all Turkic nations. From Siberia to Turkey. Yet ancient Anatolian culture doesn't belong to Greeks. Greeks belong to Greece. Just because some of them colonized Anatolia doesn't mean Greeks are natives to Anatolia. Greeks once colonized Crimea and Eygpt, do you also fake their culture like yours ?--85.100.33.205 19:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seriously weird Greek POV 

message: I just heard a program on the ABC (Aust) about music of the first world war. It included the music of the Zembeks. They stated that the mountainous rebel fighters were a mixture of both Turks and Greeks indigenous to the region. Interesting.60.224.36.150 13:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zembecks; Turkish and Greek! 

message: Why is it named after some people (according to the link at the bottom of the page) in Asia Minor?? notbale to tell of the meaning behind the name I think. I would like to know at least...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.121.247.116 (talk) 02:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  origin of the name 'zeibekiko'? 

message: -However, in the 21st century a certain dance etiquette has evolved, seeing men either wait until the dancing man stops and then begin dancing, or standing up so the dancer gives them his place.
''
*This has nothing to do with the 21st century.
 
-seeing men either wait until the dancing man stops and then begin dancing
*well that is the thing that happens in an intensely personal dance, as said before.
-or standing up so the dancer gives them his place. 
*and that is known as rudeness, it is not special to zeibekiko dance itself.
-Women were traditionally prohibited from dancing the Zeibekiko unless they were prostitutes
*This is false. It is of course a modern cliche to think so. 
It is traditional more of a men-dance but women were not prohibited from dancing. First of all on the islands it is not even a men-dance. 
You confuse things with the rebetico era (but even in Rebetico culture it is not so). The Zeibekiko dance is alot older and widespread than rebetico music. It is a folk dance, it exists in greek folk music (demotika). 
-The dancer is surrounded by other people, who crouch on their knees while clapping for him
*That is no rule. 
-Throwing plates at the dancer's feet was a practice popular until the 1970's but a practice that very rarely takes place today
*That was a practice very popular i in the 1960's until the 1970's in specific establishments. And this practice was not limited on Zeibekiko dance, it was a general entertainment behaviour in these establishments.
-Throwing flowers or other items that won't injure anyone (e.g. napkins) has become more common
*Again in specific establishments. This is no Zeibekiko rule.
-In Greek nightclubs, flowers are sold in trays or baskets of ten to twenty pieces and are thrown en-masse on artists, singers, dancers, and other spectators. They are also used for courtship and flirting. In practice, the bill in Greek bouzoukia, especially on the best-placed tables (centre and front), is largely based on flower consumption, and can very often exceed the cost of a brand new car
*Off-topic and irrelevant.
-The Zeibekiko is commonly referred to as the dance of dances
*By whom? 
-requiring incredible athleticism, balance, and creativity. This creativity serves to add to the mood of the Zeibekiko, one of self-expression and kinship with the sombre lyrics to which the dance is performed
*Get serious!
-The origins of this dance trace themselves back to the history of when the Greek people were slaves to the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years. There are no organized steps to this dance. As mentioned earlier, it is purely improvised. It is often referred to as the drunken dance. This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking. While inebriated, the slaves would then dance (to forget their worries). They would be off balance and their movements would seem erratic. At times, they had trouble keeping themselves standing. Hence, the fact that there are no organized steps. Though many of today's dancers do not know the full history of the dance, they are said to be immitating the movements of the drunken Greek slaves. It is a dance in their honor.
*This section also needs a rewriting, I just did not have the time.  
Yangula (talk) 20:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  let's clean up 

message: The origins of this dance trace themselves back to the history of when the Greek people were slaves to the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years. There are no organized steps to this dance. As mentioned earlier, it is purely improvised. It is often referred to as the drunken dance. This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking. While inebriated, the slaves would then dance (to forget their worries). They would be off balance and their movements would seem erratic. At times, they had trouble keeping themselves standing. Hence, the fact that there are no organized steps. Though many of today's dancers do not know the full history of the dance, they are said to be immitating the movements of the drunken Greek slaves. It is a dance in their honor.
*this is crap and you knoe it. First of all the greek people where no slaves, they where under Ottoman rule. 
*Second:  It is NEVER referred by ANYONE as "drunken dance"....
*"This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking" C'mon! give me a break. The whole section is garbage. We are not writing a fairy tale, we write an encyclopedia article. I am reverting. If you want to discuss it do it here. If you want to write something i the article please do. But dont give me this fairy tale crap again.  Yangula (talk) 20:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  crap 

message: Well, I read the research paper by Nikos Politis. He is surely known in the internet community and has a respectfull opinion. But I think that Zeibekiko is a folk dance and it was not born in the twentieth century. It may not be a folk dance in most of mainland Greece, but it is a folkdance on many of the Aegean Islands and, of course, in Asia Minor (I am not sure about Thrace but it is possible).
The dance originated from the Zeybek warriors of Asia Minor and was partly introduced in Greece after the 1923 population exchanges. What do we mean with partly here?
It has been suggested that the greek Rebetiko composer Markos Vamvakaris from the island of Syros played a role of paramount importance in shaping and popularizing this musical and dance genre.
If we mean the musical genre Rebetiko, he sure has. I wouldn't say it about the dance though. By his time (his recording began 1932) Zeibekiko was allready a popular dance. This can be seen in the Greek discography.
Now about the rythmic pattern: I don't quite understand why some people (mostly westerners) call it 9/4. The pattern is 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 (This is one form of many, the "classic" form). It is obviously 9/8. (by the way Nikos Politis in his paper has made some major mistakes about the rhythms)  Yangula (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to correct whatever you consider incorrect as long as you provide sources for your edits. As far as "partly" is concerned you are probably right about its ambiguity but if you read the Politis paper you will find out that he uses a similar expression (in part) without further explanations. I am not sure whether the musical and dance genre should be treated as separate entities but again feel free to change it if you find it inprecise or misleading. You are right in pointing out that the zeibekiko was well established in Greek discogrpaphy by the time Vamvakaris came to the fore but again the importance of his contribution is not my personal opinion but the view held by Politis. If you ask me the rest of the article also needs more sources because in its present state it largely consists of OR. --Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 18:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe (but can't verify as I don't read Greek well enough) that Markos describes how, in his childhood on Syros, there were what he called "dance schools" teaching how to perform zeybekiko dances. Incidentally, you'll find that if Nikos Politis says a thing in one of his papers, he does have a reliable source for it. The Real Walrus (talk) 09:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folk or Urban Dance 

message: Some musicians have related this rhythm to a form of zeimbekiko and the Zeybek tribes.
Kamilieriko may refer to the way the dancer holds his body to somewhat resemble the camel's hump (Kamili...)
A popular rembetika song which is in the rhythyum of Kamilieriko is "ta matoklada sou lamboun" ΤΑ ΜΑΤΟΚΛΑΔΑ ΣΟΥ ΛΑΜΠΟΥΝ by Markos Bambakaris Μάρκος Βαμβακάρης . You may find examples of this the youtube website. 
Jgg1013 (talk) 12:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kamilieriko music and dance 

message: Hi! I removed the reference to 2003's Hydra conference, because:
*Geocities were shut down by the end of 2009 (original url was: www.geocities.com/HydraGathering/programme2003.html); I was too lazy to search the webarchives
*the program is available here, but does not support it's claim.
The Zeibekiko Conference (also from geocities) is a rather poor reference. I changed it to the archived version until a better reference shows up. →Alfie±Talk 23:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I suggest a merge from Zeimbekiko into this article, it is very poorly written but contains some (unsourced) useful(?) information Rchard2scout (talk) 21:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Supported. Zeimbekiko looks like Google-translate plus some copy-paste errors. I searched el:WP, but that's not the source. I guess the reason for the new article is the old story of transliterating Greek ‘μπ’. ;-) Who will volunteer? Alfie↑↓© 02:13, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from [[Zeimbekiko]] 

message: 212.152.85.32 (talk) 00:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you life in the USA, how do you manage it to post from Athens all the time? ;-) Alfie↑↓© 11:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Bility (talk) 22:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  /* Artists */  

message: The word Zeybek occurs first in the 13th aiona.Ellines Macedonians who migrated from Thrace to Asia Minor Frygia.I action stretches from the Dardanelles to the ancient Doris with a stronger presence in the region of Smyrna (Aydin, Bursa, Mugla, Oidemisi .. .). Thracians and Phrygians have racial, linguistic and cultural affinity.
The Zeibekiko showed characteristics of social behavior,
ethymotypias, clothing, traditions, dances and teletourgikon.Gia long lived in the mountains (as the rebels) against state violence and cruelty, claiming the law of popular taxeon.Kata guerrilla was second in the body after Efe.To dress was very attentive , extremely clean, with white skin (called the Turks, the Greeks with the silver body). Fundamental values, ethics, honesty, courage, gumption, altro yismos, besaliki, charity (something like Robin Hood of the poor). The word Zeybek still mean the Turks Leventis, lad.
The word has ellinofrygiki katagogi.Zef-Bekos ex = Zeus Zeus (symbolizing the spirit)
Vekos or Bekos by Herodotus and the bread symbolizes the body.
Whatever else are by TURKS NATIONALISTS  AND FAKE  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.92.242.152 (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  - 

message: The name of the dance derives from the Zeibek who were Greek  warriors of Asia minor.It say it clearly : Babiniotis, Georgios (1998). "ζεϊμπέκικος". Lexiko tis Neas Ellinikis Glossas. Athens: Kentro Lexikologias. p. 709.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.64.45.206 (talk) 14:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: (1) Babioniotis speaks not of "Greek warriors" but of warriors who were islamized descendants of Greeks. But whatever they were, (2) it is not relevant to this article (we have sourced coverage of Zeibeks at the Zeibeks article); (3) it's not reliably sourced. Babiniotis is a competent source on the etymologies of words, but he is not an authority on the history of these ethnicities and tribes. For that purpose, we'd have to cite proper historians. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:03, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. To call the Zeybeks "Greeks" after they had been Muslims for centuries is wrong. "zeybek" is a term for an irregular warrior, along the lines of the bashi-bouzouks or the cetes. The most detailed account in Greek, Οι ζεϊμπέκοι της Μικράς Ασίας, mentions the "possible" descent from Thracians and Phrygians along other theories. Going from this τo the unequivocal assertion that "they were Greek warriors" is a long way...  Whatever their ancestors were ten generations before matters as little as whether a modern Greek has Albanians, Slavs or Germans in his family tree. Read whatever Greek account you want from the 19th and 20th centuries and you will find them as brigands, preying on the Christian Greek population. They certainly did not perceive themselves as Greeks... Constantine   ✍  15:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  babiniotis Lexiko tis Neas Ellinikis Glossas (1998) 

message: So Babiniotis concede that,zeibeks were warriors who were islamized descendants of Greeks too (Ζειμπεκιδες - ηταν απογονοι Ελληνων).So this is a good opportunity to be mentioned. (By the way you forgot to mention that Greek tree is also pure too,according to recognised universities dna and genetic sciences and studies,by American union since 1960 till today,an answer to the previous M.r.)   - User talk:94.69.228.164  08:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Kelmahir and Roins, I don't think it's productive to try to debate the origin of the Zeibekiko dance from first principles in this way.  Wikipedia is not a general discussion forum.  What is needed is neutral WP:Reliable sources, ideally third-party.  --Macrakis (talk) 13:44, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

text: I just placed a section for the truth of the origin of zeibekiko, because there is no other way, based on WP:Reliable sources. --Roins (talk) 13:55, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Εχει δικιο ο παραπανω κι ενας κουφος θα καταλαβαινε την διαφορα μεταξυ Ζειμπεκικου και κλεμενου. Αν ειναι σωστοι ας βαλουν ενα ακουστικο sample στο αρθρο Zeybek, να βλεπει κ ο κοσμος την ομοιοτητα με τον Ελληνικο ζειμπεκικο, θα γελαει κ ο καθε πικραμενος χα χα!(τα λεμε) --Futurecomeon (talk) 23:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Babiniotis say it , too 

message: I have finally again removed the reference the pseudo-etymology related to "Zeus" and "bekos". We were seemingly saying that this claim was something from "old folklore" or a "folk etymology" – but that contextualization itself is WP:OR and we don't know if it's true. This idea could have come from anywhere, and it's actually unlikely that it's a genuine folk tradition itself. What we had in terms of sources was just two random amateur writers asserting the etymological claim as true: one 1950s travel writer by name of Peter Mayne, writing in Cornhill Magazine; and one person by the name of Katia Savrami writing in a journal called "Dance Studies", who currently is a dance scholar with a Ph.D. at a Greek university but apparently wrote this when she was still an undergraduate student (she's calling herself an "aspiring dance researcher" in the article, and the article was published two years before she earned her M.A. ). Neither of the two is a reliable source about the matter at hand, etymology; only an academic linguist or historian could be. Nor does either of the two sources offer the kind of critical contextualization that we would need in order to be able to competently talk about this claim as being a folk tradition or whatever else. If we don't know where this idea comes from, and in the absence of anything indicating that it's anything more than abjectly speculative amateurish folk-etymology of the worst kind, it's better not to talk about it at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you show me that discussion? I don't remember it. In any case, I don't believe any of us ever checked the reliability of those two sources in the way I did just now. I just demonstrated why they are both unreliable; you haven't responded to that. What other sources do you propose? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:35, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

text: What I can see now is that we had a discussion on my talkpage (archived at thread 1 thread 2) in mid-2012. In this discussion I raised pretty much the same objections as now, and I'm afraid to say your responses show that there was a considerable degree of difficulty of communication between us due to your command of English – just like then, I'm still finding it difficult to figure out what you are trying to say, and I very much suspect you aren't understanding everything I'm saying. In any case, our discussion certainly didn't end in a consensus between us. I may have failed to follow up on your last proposal, but I certainly wasn't agreeing with it, and so I am re-raising my old objections now. The problem remains the same: the sources we have aren't reliable sources with respect to the domain in question, so we can't use them to simply support the claim as if taking it at face value, while at the same time we have nothing to support the necessary hedging/contextualization (as pseudo-etymology), so we can't critically discuss the claim without committing WP:OR either. In the last discussion you hinted that the claim might go back to Scarlatos Byzantios (quite plausible; he was certainly fond of making up stuff like this), but even if we had an exact citable ref for that it would still not solve the basic problem. As for the "pandect" website , I'm not actually seeing anything it says about it; where does it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

text: Where in all of this is anything said about the "Zeus"/"bekos" claim? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

text: You didn't answer my question. Why did you quote that "pandect" website and the "Cultural Guide" book, if they both are not actually saying anything about the etymology? Are you just employing smokescreen tactics? And the "hellenic-arts.com" website is again just some guy's self-published website and utterly useless as a source – there is not the slightest hint that this self-styled "musicologist" has any credible authority in matters of etymology. As for the Cornhill Magazine and the "Dance Studies" volume, no, they are not enough to count as reliable sources, and I explained to you why in my very first posting above. Next time you post here, please make more of an effort at understanding and addressing the points I make; otherwise this conversation will be pointless. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

text: ...this is one more hardly-understandable "answer" that does not adress the points made by FPS...--Phso2 (talk) 22:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

text: Sorry, but I'll have to ask you to do something to improve your English before you attempt to discuss this or similar topics again. It is not possible to have a coherent discussion with you like this. I'll be reverting your edits; my arguments above stand and have still not been properly addressed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:58, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudo-etymology 

message: About these recent reverts : the same still applies as discussed above. The "bekos" claim is such a transparently ludicrous piece of pseudo-etymology it falls under the heading of exceptional claims that require exceptionally good sources. The science that deals with etymologies is linguistics; hence, only a reputable academic publication by a competent linguist will count as a source here. Babiniotis, author of Lexiko tis neas ellinikis glossas, is something of an authority on Modern Greek lexicography and generally a decent source when it comes to etymologies. In contrast, Mr Kalogeropoulos, author of Lexiko tis ellinikis mousikis, may no doubt be an expert on Greek music, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about the way names are transmitted from language to language and from generation to generation, which is what historical linguistics deals with. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:29, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  And again... 

message: Zeibekiko () is a Greek folk dance which follows the Byzantine rhythmic pattern of 9/4Kilpatrick, David. "Ethnomusicology", Vol. 6, No. 3, Canadian Issue (Sep., 1972), p. 577. or else 9/8. it is most commonly broken down as:
Genglund (talk) 18:43, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2015