Talk:Ferdinand, Duke of Viseu

message: * Infante Ferdinand, Duke of Viseu → Ferdinand, 2nd Duke of Viseu
* Infante John, Duke of Viseu → John, 3rd Duke of Viseu
* Infante Diogo, Duke of Viseu → Diogo, 4th Duke of Viseu
– To conform to WP:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility).  "Infante" is an honorific (generally to be avoided), and, at any rate, is erroneously applied here (John & Diogo are not "infantes", they are the sons of dukes, not kings; cf. pt.wikipedia).  Duke of Viseu is their senior title (they were also Duke of Beja, but Viseu is the older title, 1st Duke of Viseu was Henry the Navigator). I would also consider Ferdinand of Portugal, 2nd Duke of Viseu as an alternate for the first (but not the other two), if someone wants to emphasize the brief period when Ferdinand was the heir apparent, but that is probably not necessary. 5th Duke of Viseu was King Manuel I of Portugal. relisted--Mike Cline (talk) 15:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Support Much better than what it is now and it follows the conventions. Though, I do like ordinals, migh I ask if article titles such as: Fernando I of Viseu or John I of Viseu would be allowed? I know that the Braganzas were given the right to bear ordinals, for the Viseus I do not know. Is that at all correct, because I am just basing off of the Braganzas. Also, whether it is "Name X of somewhere" or "name,X duke of somewhere", could we also include Beja? After all, the two were intertwined and, towards the end, it seems Beja was used more, as El-Rei Manuel I was called Duke of Beja more than called Duke of Viseu, hence Avis-Beja, but I am rambling, sorry. Thank you, Cristiano Tomás (talk) 13:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, wait, nevermind, they carry differant ordinals, so nevermind to the adding Beja. Thank you, Cristiano Tomás (talk) 13:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I thought of Beja, but that was problematic since Viseu is senior and Ferdinand preferred it.  The reason Manuel is more frequently called Duke of Beja than Viseu was to emphasize that his bloodline stems from Ferdinand (1st Beja, 2nd Viseu), and not from Henry (1st Viseu, who had no sons). Walrasiad (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

text:  Edward, Duke of Kent is a living royal.  These guys are long, long dead. Orderng of old dukes is quite conventional - even uber-famous fellas like Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington.  And quite helpful. Particularly for these guys, since the succession to the title was not passed linearly (Duke of Viseu went to nephew, then to son, then to brother).  It is quite easy to get confused and I've often seen whoppers suggesting Ferdinand was the first duke, succeeded by Diogo his son, overlooking that Henry the Navigator was first and there was John in between.  Since the succession of Dukes of Viseu involved very important (and tragic) political deals, it is useful to be clear. Walrasiad (talk) 17:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobility, like the Duke of Wellington, are given numerals for their titles but not royalty according to the naming conventions. I think mentioning the number in the articles is enough I don’t think adding it to the article name adds anything..  - dwc lr (talk) 21:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

text:  To repeat, "Infante" is not a substantive title; it's an honorific courtesy.  Ferdinand's titles are Duke of Viseu, Duke of Beja, Lord of Covilha, Constable of Portugal, etc.  As for common usage, keep in mind pt.wiki does not use "Infante" in their article title, e.g. Fernando de Portugal, Duque de Viseu). And hardly common in English usage at all.  A quick check on "Infante Ferdinand" in combination with "Viseu" yields up a mere 4 hits.  "Ferdinand, Duke of Viseu" (minus infante) shows up with 37 hits. Walrasiad (talk) 12:14, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no hits on Google Books for Fernando de Portugal, Duque de Viseu. The subject's usual name in Portuguese is infante D. Fernando. The common name for a feudal lord is almost always his highest title plus the given name. Kauffner (talk) 13:20, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

text:  I don't think anybody is claiming it is redundant.  The argument here is about usage.  "Infante" is a Portuguese courtesy honorific for any and all non-bastard sons of kings. 
It is not used in English (heck, it is not used in Portuguese either, except in combination with "Dom", i.e. "Infante Dom Fernando", never "Infante Fernando").  It is not a substantial title, it is an honorific, at best an internal courtly rank, used obsequiously - like using "Blessed Saint Augustine", instead of plain Augustine of Hippo.  When translated into English, Infante comes out as "Prince", e.g. you sometimes find "Prince Henry the Navigator", but never "Infante Henry the Navigator", so if you want to maintain this case here, it would have to be as "Prince Ferdinand, Duke of Viseu". But if the far-better known Henry doesn't get "Prince" in his article title, why should Ferdinand get it?  Now, there are some cases where a courtesy appelation is more prominent than a substantive title, e.g. Edward, 1st Duke of Cornwall is far better known as "Edward the Black Prince".  But this Ferdinand is not particularly known for his princely title, but more for his ducal title of Viseu.  On the contrary, if anything, the immediate connection of "Prince Ferdinand"  or "Infante Dom Fernando" would be his much better-known uncle Ferdinand the Saint Prince (who doesn't really have any other substantive title to lean on), which is why even the most sycophantic Portuguese sources emphatically disambiguate this Ferdinand as "Duke of Viseu", rather than leave it as "Infante Dom Fernando". In short, "Infante Ferdinand" is not his name, it is not his title, it is not how he is best known, or known at all, nor it is not how the term is translated into English (the only case I can think of for common usage of "Infante" in English is with the "Cardinal-Infante Ferdinand" of Spain, but that is an exception.) I remind all that neither Portuguese nor Spanish wikipedias use the term "Infante" in their own article titles for royal princes.  I don't see why English wiki should be more ingratiating of fawning courtly courtesies.  Walrasiad (talk) 16:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
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