Talk:Hyles–Anderson College

message: I am unschooled in citing references as I usually just correct typos that spell check misses and a grammatical error here and there, but I found information contradicting the information listed in the article. It was a PDF document of the TN Court of Criminal Appeals Opinion on the appeal of both Joe and Evangeline Combs of their convictions. I crudely included an inline citation the best I could, however, I noticed a "1" next to the cite in the reflist. Does this mean I did it wrong? 
And I would also be glad of some discussion on whether anyone thinks that the former Esther Combs merits a page of her own. I mean given the duration and severity of her abuse, and controversy surrounding her case, I would think that she merits a page(or perhaps inclusion in a page about the entire case). She is, however, a living person, and I don't know how to interpret the rules regarding living persons. Besides, she may not appreciate having it created. After all, she went to the trouble to change her name and move 500 miles away. Sorry if this isn't the place to invite discussion. This can be moved elsewhere if there is a more appropriate venue. Thanks.Radiooperator (talk) 23:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:CITE

message: I'm Sorry, do you really think that any thinly veiled legal threats will carry any weight? I quote: "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." The fact that you threaten legal action for statements with which you disagree makes one think that they possibly are not, in fact, baseless. By the way, isn't that dangerously close to prohibiting free speech, or becoming a 'thought police.'
All Wiki entries should conform to the Neutral Point of View.
It is impossible to truly understand the Hyles phenomenon without a discussion of the scandals and accusations that literally changed his ministry in the 1980's.  While Hyles' followers have for years attacked those who would even bring the allegations up, 2 books, a major expose by a credible journalist and multiple media articles do not comprise "innuendo" and "libel".  Hyles' son has been investigated for child abuse that lead to the death of a child.  Hyles' son has a notorious record of immoral sexual conduct with a wide variety of women in multiple churches.  Hyles-Anderson is indisputably an unaccreditted college whose graduates are left with a largely unmarketable degree.  These aren't "un-neutral" points of view -- they are FACTS.  The fact that the Hyles' followers constantly monitor this page and remove any "non-pro-Hyles" information off of it says a lot.  True thinkers need the whole story.  It is just this kind of response that has lead many to conclude the Hyles adherents are trapped in a cultic system.  For verification, read "The Wizard of God" by Victor Nischek, "Fundamental Seducation" by Attorney Voyle Glover or do a web search for multiple other articles and exposes on Jack Hyles.
This Wiki entry is for information about a Bible College, not a forum for personal accusations and/or character assassinations against religious figures.  Please refer to this link concerning Wikipedia policy on Neutral Point of View.  --Teeja 14:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: The word "unacreditted" was removed from the article.  Does ANYONE dispute that?  They make it a point to tout the fact that they do not and will not seek accreditation.  The CHOOSE to be unaccredited and those investigating this college through Wikipedia should be aware of that.  It is ridiculous to consider a single, factual word to be "biased".
The bias in this exchange is one-sided...even the fact that the school is Unaccredited -- a known fact -- is considered to be "anti-" or somehow negative.  If it is negative, then why is it a problem?  Why are things that can be found in the media, books that have been written regarding the whole of Hyles-Anderson and the founder, internet discussions and other links deemed "biased."  The only bias seen is what is being demonstrated by the Wikipedia editor and those who continue to take down any revisions.
I agree with your current revision - there is a slight, but important difference in saying that an organization is "unaccredited" vs. "The college takes a position against accreditation by outside agencies"  The former did not appear to express the fact in a neutral tone, while the later explains the college's position in detail, thus adding neutrality to the stated fact, therefore, your last revision conforms to Wikipedia policy.  --Teeja 16:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right about POV in regards to accreditation. The page reads HAC "refuses to accept accreditation." This is bogus, there are not accreditation agencies handing out accreditation on the street corners. Rather Hyles-Anderson College has not applied for accreditation from any national or religious accreditation agency. This section needs to more properly reflect what accreditation is, means, and how is it received. The whole thing reads like an ad for an unaccredited school. Arbusto 19:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unacreditted

message: In an attempt to satisfy both sides on these issues, I have created a separate Wiki entry named the Jack Hyles Controversy Wiki.  I have also added a "Controversy" section here to provide for a link to this new Wiki.  The new wiki has suggested sections, please feel free to add to these sections as needed, keeping in mind that all Wikipedia entries must conform to the Neutral Point of View.  This will hopefully remove some of the heated arguments concerning this page, while still acknowledging that the accusations exist, and provide another venue for those who wish to post addional information concerning those accusations..  --Teeja 17:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A POV fork is not acceptable here.  The article is not too long, and can easily fit in mention of related Jack Hyles criticism.  Your quote is also extremely manipulative.  The POV fork page also says "This second article is known as a "POV fork" of the first. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and majority Point of Views on a certain subject are treated in one article."  Only later does it qualify that statement with the quote you gave.  Hence, Jack Hyles Controversy has been nominated for deletion (by someone else). Superm401 - Talk 06:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed that a POV should not be allowed. Criticism on the school/founders should be with the school. Arbustoo 01:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solutions 

message: *Suggestions? Is the above okay to add to the article? If not, please explain why. Arbusto 05:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Looks to be well-referenced and presented, I have no problem with it. Just zis Guy you know? 11:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *For interested parties on the sources visit www.Chicagotribune.com search archives for Jack Hyles and you will find the sources in the article. To read the articles you must register. The search that comes up is: Arbusto 02:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: A search for Hyles Colleges adds two more, they are a bus accident and an obituary:
#Bus accident injures 16 on Bishop Ford Rick Jervis, Tribune staff reporter; Chicago Tribune; Sep 21, 2003; 4;  
# ROBERT BILLINGS, MORAL MAJORITY FOUNDER New York Times News Service.; Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext); Jun 4, 1995; 6;  
*I'm mainly fine with it, although it would be nice to have a more direct reference for "Preying from the Pulpit." JoshuaZ 21:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

text: From the controversy page, "the five-part audio recording of this documentary is available here::  , , , , . Arbusto 02:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Seems good to me. JoshuaZ 02:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I finally listened the "Preying" audio of the news program. Very disturbing stuff. Arbusto 02:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this okay

message: ::Since Hyles-Anderson College is unaccredited, meaning not recognized by any group with ties to the Council on Higher Education Accreditation or the US Department of Education, it is difficult for the academic community to judge the education offered at the college. 
::Every single full-time faculty member (38 educators/adminstrators) received at least one degree from Hyles-Anderson College.(pages 8-23, ) Of those, the majority only have undergraduate degrees and no graduate work.(pages 8-23,)
::On the Hyles-Anderson applicantion, the school does not ask for the applicants' grades at previous schools.
::Some of the "science programs" the school offers include, "music education," "marriage and motherhood," "pastoral assistantship" and "pastoral theology."
::For students that take more than five units at the college, their spouse is offered free coursework as well. This is due in part so the wives of students "can learn to be a successful leader's wife."(page 36,) 
::Religion is a very important aspect of education at Hyles-Anderson. According to the school catalog "each student is required to go soul-winning each week." (page 34, ). 
::As for money, tuition is $4,100 a year (not including housing).(page 38,) 
Academic facts need to be in a school article. Arbusto 02:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This information can be included in the article, but your conclusions can not.  That's original reserach.  If someone else has made comments about this, you can republish them. 
Superm401 - Talk 15:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Feel free to edit out the "conclusions." I removed all the heresay that was in page history and went through the catalog. I looked for objective academic reviews, but found none. I tried to find a job placement list of alumni, I found none. Arbusto 21:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I agree. This is a bit too sneering in tone. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 17:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Katefan, can we get the criticism from the above section consensus added? Arbusto 21:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but if you've really reached a consensus I'll be glad to unprotect the article. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 21:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  A semi-protect would be best, judging from yesterday's activity, in which all documented criticism of the Hammond Church got deleted three times. Arbusto 21:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't semiprotect preemptively. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 21:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not really "preemptive" considering the last 5 white washes of criticism were done by anon. IPs. The same anon. IPs as the other Hyles page. Arbusto 03:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  I've unprotected; 5 days is too long.  Everyone, remain calm and remember to write from the NPOV, cite sources, and avoid original research.  Superm401 - Talk 00:35, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academics 

message: Has anyone noticed how edits which claim to be correcting POV sonehow never add information whihc is unflattering to the college, only remove it?  Curious, no? Just zis Guy you know? 22:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Has anyone else noticed that Wikipedia administrators who intervene on the Hyles-Anderson College, First Baptist Church and Jack Hyles wikis never intervene to support anything positive concerning these subjects (except to delete edits that might add positive information here), but are more than willing to jump right in and support anti-FBC, anti-Jack Hyles, and anti-Hyles Anderson College edits?  --68.78.118.244 23:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The issue is you adding something that is uncited and removing things that are. Arbusto 01:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A curious thing 

message: Why has this been getting removed: 
The Northwest Indiana Times reported three former Hyles-Anderson students where arrested for a burglary "rampage" in January 2004 after the President of the college helped obtain a confession from two former students. A realtor entered a Merrillville house she was selling only to find several times missing. She was later contacted by James Clement Jr., attorney for the First Baptist Church of Hammond, and said "he had received information about the Merrillville burglary from church officials." Two of the former students confessed to school president Jack Schaap. One of the former students charged in the crime was charged with rape with a fourteen year old, but the rape charge was dropped and he plead guilty to burglary.
Involving the current president, the school's lawyers, former students, and the local community. Considering this is a Christian school that "has strict rules that forbid what it believes are immoral acts" including forbidding associatations with "liberals" something like this is news. Arbusto 06:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The material is being removed because it is not appropriate for an encyclopedia article about Hyles-Anderson College.  Every college and university has rules that prohibit its students from burglary and theft, but we do not litter encyclopedia articles at University of Texas, Harvard, Yale, Southern, or any other college with a list of crimes that former members have committed.  These former students are not notable and they should not be in an encyclopedia article.  Vivaldi (talk) 09:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nice comparison, but Hyles-Anderson isn't Harvard or even accredited. It has "rules of conduct" with students involved in immoral behavior with the school's president helping get confessions surrounding the immoral behavior that affects the local community. Arbusto 18:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  All colleges have "rules of conduct" that state that their students shouldn't burglarize.  All colleges have students that have committed burglaries.  The students that were charged in the burglaries were not notable and they weren't even students -- they were former students when they allegedly committed the crimes and they were former students when they were charged.  These former students weren't even under an obligation to follow any HAC rules of conduct.   There is no reason this should be in the article about HAC.  It is unprecedented for a college to have the crimes of non-notable former students included in an encyclopedia article about the college.  Vivaldi (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  burglary rampage and rape 

message: This revert by Arbustoo undid two typo fixes, one link correction, and one wikilink.  Hopefully we can agree on the correct spelling of words, and that it is appropriate to wikilink things like Textus Receptus.  Vivaldi (talk) 02:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  revert by Arbustoo 

message: I noticed that someone else changed the location.  The source you cited also is a newspaper that incorrectly wrote that I am a candidate in the November election.  The county lists it as unincorporated St.John Township..  If that link doesn't work then go to http://in-lake-assessor.governmaxa.com/propertymax/rover30.asp? then click [Guest Access] then click "Start your search...".  Click "owner" on the left side of the screen then enter "Hyles" and search.   
Also what is labeled "Physical address" should be "Postal address".  Another example of the post office doing this is part of Hammond, Indiana is considered to be part of Whiting, Indiana by the post office. I'll try to get a township map posted.  --Kalmia 03:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool.  I just couldn't find any source that claimed it was in St. John Township, and I found one that contradicted that claim, so I changed the article and put in my source.  Obviously the county assessor is a better source of information.  Thanks for providing that link.  Vivaldi (talk) 21:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location 

message: Where is it illegal for one to utilize a degree title obtained from an unaccredited bible college?  Has anyone been convicted of using a degree title from a bible college?  If not, then this claim seems highly out of place.  I can see having a warning for people that the school is unaccredited, but suggesting that if they go to the school and start calling themselves, Dr. So-and-so, that they may be arrested, now that seems way out of line.   Unless I missed this happening somewhere?   Vivaldi (talk) 10:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Talk:School accreditation, the page you have found a new interest in, has some citations. Arbusto 06:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do any of the laws make it illegal for a graduate of an non-accredited religious school to call themselves "Dr. Falwell" or something of that nature?  Will we soon see Dr. Falwell behind bars?Vivaldi (talk) 08:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

text: In fact, for that matter, has anyone ever been arrested after testifying about their doctoral status from an unaccredited university?  I have a strong suspicion you cannot find one single person that has ever received even a ticket for this so-called "crime" (excepting cases where the person also lied about the nature of the degree).  I'd also note that the full-context of nearly all the laws I reviewed in the accredition article seemed to specifically exclude religious institutions and/or provided other means to obtain exemptions from the law other than accreditation.  I just think warning people that they could be breaking the law is a tad excessive.  Of course, you feel you own the article, so you get to insert whatever tripe you want with impunity, whilst simultaneously reverting everything I ever insert, even those edits specifically called "good" by other editors.Vivaldi (talk) 08:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Classic. First you asked "where" they are illegal and you were shown, now you moved the goal post. Religious degrees probably are acceptable in general use in religious contexts. Now I'll ask you for proof: where is some evidence that Elementary Education and Secondary Education, degrees Hyles awards, are religious based degrees. More importantly, someone who paid thousands of dollars for this peice a paper ends up doing what with it? Arbusto 01:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text:  Isn't it important for people to know that a degree from Hyles-Anderson in Elementary Education is not acceptable to teach in ANY public school in the United States? Arbusto 01:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The use of degree titles may be illegal? 

message: Hyles-Anderson's course catalog says that 11 of their faculty have been granted a D.D. by Hyles-Anderson.  This fact is easily proven by reading the course catalog.  I have provided a link.  Arbustoo has again improperly removed this claim.  Even his friend JzG cited this particular edit as an example of my good editing and willingness to compromise.  It is obvious now that Arbustoo believes he owns these articles and that he intends to revert any edit that I make regardless of the merits.  I would encourage Arbustoo to read the policies about verifiability.  The claims inserted in the article are easily proven to meet the standards of inclusion in Wikipedia.  The claims are relevant to the topic at hand and the information comes directly from the topic of the article.Vivaldi (talk) 08:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to reiterate my concerns about the school's reliability as a source for claims regarding Doctorate titles given, as long as there is no verifiable information regarding the granting of the titles themselves. If there was a source provided saying "On such-and-such a date, Hyles-Anderson awarded such-and-such a Doctorate of Divinity", I would be far more confident of the reliability of the school as a source. As it stands, this question has gone unaddressed for nearly half a month on this discussion page. --Kuzaar-T-C- 14:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes I with Kuzaar. Either properly source it or leave it out. Your claim of "Arbustoo..." are garbage. You are the only person who wants that included even though it lacks reliability. Months back that page did not claim he had a doctorate and now it does after  on these very pages I called into question the use of the title. Arbusto 22:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also we need to keep the Dr. title out of this: 1) it is against policy at MOS:BIO, 2) we don't know if its honorary or earned 3) it is unaccredited. Arbusto 22:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of properly sourced claims

message: In the current Chancellor Jack Schaap's book on Marriage, titled Divine Intimacy (published by Hyles Publications, 2005), Schaap teaches that when a Baptist takes Holy Communion, he is not taking the Body and Blood of Christ, but is engaging in "Spiritual Sex" with God.Marriage: The Divine Intimacy - Hyles Publications, 2005 page 42 pp3 He also teaches that the Independent Fundamental Baptist - as the Bride of Christ - is the female corresponding to the male of Christ.Marriage: The Divine Intimacy - Hyles Publications, 2005 page 42 pp3 Another baptist belief brought up in chapter 3 is that when the wife lays back and receives her husbands sperm, she is by that action saying "Christ by this act I am receiving You."Marriage: The Divine Intimacy - Hyles Publications, 2005 page 43 pp1 He also makes the claim that the Word translated as "laid" in Psalm 119:30 (I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgements have I LAID before me...) means sexual intercourse.Marriage: The Divine Intimacy - Hyles Publications, 2005 page 44 pp2 Schaap then make the claim that in Psalm 119:31 (I have STUCK unto thy testimonies...) the word Stuck means the act of a man entering his wife.Marriage: The Divine Intimacy - Hyles Publications, 2005 page 44 pp3 These claims are not correct when one examines the Hebrew words used in the original text.
I have not seen this book, so I don't know how much of this is true, but even so, I don't think it belongs on this article and under "policies".  It may be a belief of Jack Schaap's and people at HAC, but it doesn't belong here.  Not every belief is a policy.  It may be correct to say that students and employees must act within the school's beliefs though.  Not knowing the accuracy of this paragraph, I will leave it on the Jack Schaap article, and if you want an article about his book it could go there, assuming it is true.  I will leave it for now while it is discussed.  
I posted the school's doctrinal statement on this article once, and someone removed it citing uniformity in school articles.  I think it was ok for this article, but I haven't fought about it.  That is certainly more appropriate than this paragraph.  If you want to make shock statements that are true and in keeping with the style then so be it.  --Kalmia 10:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the statement as it obviously has nothing to do with the school's policies.  That odd bit of theology is mentioned on Jack Schaap's article itself, but really isn't applicable anywhere else. BigDT 12:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jack Schaap]]'s book on Marriage 

message: Under the policies section, it is stated that Hyles-Anderson College adhears to biblical standards of dress by prohibitng women from waeraing pants and sleaveless shirts.  This appears to be a somewhat subjective understanding of what Biblical standards actually are.  The vast majority of Christian women in America would scoff at Hyles-Anderson College's standards and see nothing wrong with wearing pants or spaghetti stap shirts etc.  I think that the reference to Biblical standards should be removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.13.130.37 (talk) 15:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like someone removed sourced criticism and inserted promotional, POV material. Saying the college is the "best" is hardly NPOV.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Highakker89 (talk • contribs) 03:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Biblical Standards of Dress

message: I've (boldly) removed the "abuse" section on the grounds that little of it had to do with the school itself, while much had to do with former staff and/or students nearly 20 years ago. I wasn't aware that there was an ArbCom decision on the subject and can't locate what was said and done in 2006. To my eye it appears to be a matter of coatracking as well as a synthesis of a series of offenses and indiscretions by people with some association with the school into a criticism of the school itself.  The referenced material may be more appropriately applied elsewhere. I contrast this with the Penn State scandal, in which school officials either did not act on or swept under the rug a long-term abusive situation that was happening at the school. Article standards have evolved since 2006, and to a fresh eye this seems like undue weight. That said, there's been a lot of recent activity to sanitize or polish the article that is inappropriate, not to mention unreferenced or in defiance of references. Acroterion (talk) 03:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: And I've found it at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Vivaldi/Proposed_decision. What seems to have been left is the residue of material referenced to reliable sources; however, my objections above stand, at least in  the case of this specific subject. Others may differ. Acroterion (talk) 03:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: I think it might be worth mentioning Jack Hyles' daughter, Linda Murphrey, speaking about the church, talking about its history, finances and describing it as a cult. SalHamton (talk) 19:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jack Hyles' daughter, Linda Murphrey, speaks 

message: Hyles-Anderson College is redoing it's entire branding from the old and original style. I work for the Hyles-Anderson College Media Department and wish to update the page without others reverting it back to former versions. I realize that this page is a public page open for all to edit and that I carry no higher rank in this community but please allow for the college branding to update to the current style. The college is currently redesigning it's branding and changes need to be applied. I have no intentions of changing the content of the article, so maintaining a neutral point of view is not an issue. Thank you for your cooperation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshCorrea (talk • contribs) 00:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logo 

message: The Arbitration Committee are proposing to remove sanctions related to this topic area which appear to be no longer required.  Details of the proposal are at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Motion: Removal of Unused Sanctions where your comments are invited. For the Arbitration Committee, Liz Read! Talk! 20:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitration Motion 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Hyles–Anderson College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Anyone know what league H-A teams play in? There is a sports section in the infobox but no athletics section in the article. Something to think about for future expansion. Henry Hannon (talk) 08:30, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Athletics 

message: The Joseph and Evangeline Lopez Combs abuse scandal does not belong here. The abuse did not happen within the context of the University and the University was never legally implicated.--Tdl1060 (talk) 01:53, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so sure. Several of the cited sources make some connections to the college, especially the AP story that explicitly notes that someone claims to have reported this to the university's president who then allegedly did nothing. They're not terribly strong connections and I'm inclined to agree with you but I'd like us to be sure. ElKevbo (talk) 02:06, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be relevant to the article if her claims to have reported her suspicions to the university were part of a lawsuit against the school, or if the school had been subject to a criminal investigation in relation to the abuse. Unfortunately, all the AP story gives us is a vague statement that "apparently nothing was done", complete with the caveat "apparently". No detailed information about what her suspicions were, what exactly she reported to the university, or what, if anything, their response was. The timeline in the AP article and the Times of Northwest Indiana article doesn't even suggest that he was still a professor at the university when the report was made. The Times of Northwest Indiana states the Combses left Northwest Indiana "probably in 1985" and took approximately 40 students with them, while the AP says he left for Florida in 1986. The AP article goes on to explain that the abuse continued after the move to Florida, and it is as they explain the abuse that occurred after the move that they give the accounts of the two babysitters. That is far from being strong enough of a connection to merit inclusion in the university's article. This would merit inclusion in an article for the Baptist Children's Home, as they were sued for negligence.--Tdl1060 (talk) 03:11, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joseph and Evangeline Lopez Combs