Talk:Ancient Roman units of measurement

message: and ancient metrology is dependent upon verifying and contrasting literary sources with field work. Even if Smith has held up over time, we should still source the estimated values to more up-to-date scholarship alongside him. — LlywelynII 22:23, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: The 1850s were a while ago

message: I suggest we change the WP:Era used on this article to CE/BCE from the Christian based Anno Domini system since this is an article on Roman subject matter. The change was made previously, and could easily be simply reverted back, but seeking consensus here first. TY — Moops ⋠T⋡ 14:05, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Good luck with that. Since most attempts to overturn the established era in articles are to remove CE in favour of AD, I have to affirm MOS:ERA and reluctantly oppose this proposal unless you can provide evidence that one system or other was used for most of the article's existence. It doesn't help that, when first created, the article used the Christian notation (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Roman_units_of_measurement&oldid=19974465). --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:25, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying that you prefer the AD system? It seems to be far less used on wikipedia than CE/BCE. Which to me, is the better, more neutral system anyway (CE/BCE that is). I wish it was used across the entire encyclopedia, but I'll take it where we can. TY — Moops ⋠T⋡ 17:02, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I prefer CE and use it in any article I create (where relevant). But my experience has been that there are far more cases of religious zealots trying to change CE to AD. So consistently holding to MOS:ERA creates a line in the sand but it cuts both ways. Yes I think Wikipedia editors are more likely to use CE than than is typical outside professional or academic contexts but there is certainly no discernible favourable trend towards wider adoption. It has become another trench line in the culture wars. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, there are far more young Americans trying to change AD to CE, because that's what their teacher told them to use. Johnbod (talk) 05:15, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You have been around here long enough that opinionated assertions like that are contrary to WP:NOTFORUM and do nothing to improve the article. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Phoeey - you made (not for the first time) some very opinionated assertions, & I replied on a factual point. We both made speculations as to the motivation of editors changing the ERA, which might not be correct in every case. So far, so normal for WP talk. You then, entirely outrageously, just removed my comment (while of course leaving your own). You have been around here long enough to know that is not acceptable. Johnbod (talk) 15:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

text:  surprises me. Every article linked from this one about a Roman person, war or building uses BC/AD, so far as I can tell by hovering over the links. MOS:ERA is a truce which saves us from attempts by people who feel strongly (see WT:MOSNUM#Article titles for years: BC/AD or BCE/CE for recent examples of those strong feelings) to obliterate the other usage. Can you say, as MOS:ERA puts it, what  you have for changing the style of this article? NebY (talk) 18:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, in particular, Roman topics are predominately BC/AD, and attempts to change them fail. I wouldn't bother trying. You realize that outside America very many people don't know what CE dates mean? Oppose Johnbod (talk) 05:15, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Era 

message: For a very long time (literally hundreds of years) the historians seemed to agree that the contemporary sources clearly declared two different units of length, pes monetalis  and pes drusianus, corresponding to the two primary standards that were kept in different places within the empire. Somehow our article does not mention this, and the newer high-quality sources are mum on the subject. It is pretty easy to add text, based for example, on , but should I? Our article based on reasonably recent sources declares a single pes value accurate to three digits (296 mm). Is it another case of Britannica oversimplifying or did the consensus indeed change? Викидим (talk) 07:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. That Duncan-Jones article tells us that the pes Drusianus is only attested for Lower Germany and finds "considerable uncertainty" regarding conjectures that its use can be detected in Britain, with some claimed instances more likely to be the standard pes and others indecisive. It doesn't suggest the Drusian was widespread. Still, if there are reliable sources that a primary standard existed for even the pes monetalis alone, it would be worth mentioning that in the article. Britannia, by the way, is a scholarly journal with no relationship to the Encyclopedia Brittanica. NebY (talk) 19:12, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannia, by the way, is a scholarly journal with no relationship to the Encyclopedia Brittanica - yes, of course. I was talking about a cite in our article that points to the The Britannica Guide to Numbers and Measurement as a source for the 296 mm claim. Duncan-Jones is not alone, BTW. It is easy to find a myriad high-quality research papers that discuss the two. However, there is very little published post-1980s (few books, but the ones I found were less reliable). So either the matter is of p.M. and p.D. was considered settled by that time (a common situation in the classical studies), or it was debunked. We should expand our article in either case, IMHO (a separate article on the pes will be even better), but the wording, naturally, has to be very different. Викидим (talk) 20:18, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Re Brittania/Brittanica - ah good! I've added a little to the text and to the notes column of the table of principal Roman units of length, with further footnote and refs. I find the pes Drusianus is already in our Foot (unit)#Historical origin; I've edited that slightly per Duncan-Jones, citing that article. NebY (talk) 16:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  pes monetalis / pes drusianus 

message: Looking at the article, the only differences between the wet and dry measure tables is the presence or absence of the semimodius, modius, modius castrensis, culeus, urna, and amphora quadrantal; why are there two charts if there is no difference between a wet or dry hemina or sextarius?  Why not denote all the units on one chart and mark if a unit was only used for fluids or dry measures with footnotes.  I know US customary has different wet and dry units, but we could just have a separate US dry column on a single combined table. Self-described Sophist (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The appropriate conversions also differ. We could merge all units into a single table with footnotes and columns specifying types of unit, but why put the reader to the work? Separate tables are easy to read and for a subject like this, don't impose any maintenance burden. NebY (talk) 20:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are there seperate dry and wet measure tables