Talk:Arabic phonology

message: I have really problems understanding this:
However, by the 8th century, the letter alif no longer represented a glottal stop only, but also a long /aː/. As a result, a diacritic symbol, hamza (ء),[citation needed] was introduced to represent this sound with alif, and a hamza can be used, separately, now without the letter alif, to indicate the sound.
It should definitely be more specific about "which sound".   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.220.117.40 (talk) 23:04, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: If anyone could add IPA to this, it would be helpful. Thanks!
Uhh, I somehow doubt Arabic phonology is quite as simple as a 1:1 correspondance with the writing system.  This article seems too simplistic to be really useful.
One-dimensional Tangent 03:35, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In American English "bed" is pronounced as [bεd] but in British English as [bed]. As the Arab vowel is mostly [æ], yet sometimes [ε], but never [e], I do think that "bad" would be a better example.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.52.178.222 (talk) 12:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Why was the chart changed? [g] is simply not a phoneme of standard Arabic. It is the realization of /dʒ/ in Egypt, but the standard pronounciation is still /dʒ/.The Dropper 07:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I understand correctly, speakers of Egyptian and other dialects that realize this as  pronounce it as  even when speaking Standard Arabic.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 08:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

text: If you feel more comfortable with the table only showing the  that's fine, but we should still have the note.  You're right about the velarized lateral being only in Allah and its derivatives but we shouldn't remove it from the table (that would be a bit of OR).  What about the velar/uvular fricatives?  Speakers of most dialects pronounce them as velar but I don't know if its different when they're speaking Standard Arabic.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't know what the standard is supposed to be.  The article right now still has the  with the tilde and if that's acceptable (with a note) then the velar-uvular one should be also. Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 20:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I understand how the Standard is used but I don't know, if it's specified, whether the dorsal fricatives are uvular or velar.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 09:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to IPA chart

message: The article on the voiced epiglottal fricative cites the great and mighty Ladefoged as finding that the pharyngeal consonants are epiglottal, rather than pharyngeal, in some dialects. Should that be mentioned?
Also, the chart says , while the frequency table says . That's another dialect difference, or rather a regional difference in the standard, right? If so, this should be explained, too. David Marjanović (talk) 01:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to change the frequency chart ( is transcribed with a z) but we could indeed mention the dialectal variation.  We could also mention the pharyngeal/epiglottal thing though if we can be specific about which dialects or regions that would be even better.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 06:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More about the IPA chart 

message: The portion about /dʒ/ is very confusing. Many Arabs insist letter ج should be pronounced /ʒ/, this being standard, not colloquial pronunciation. I don't understand the section " In classical Arabic, this was either [ɟ] or [gʲ]." Where is this from - what's the source? Is it correct? What are these sounds? Isn't the classical pronunciation /dʒ/ of the letter? It seems it has shifted to /ʒ/ (Eastern Arab countries) and /g/ (Egypt and Yemen(?)) but otherwise, isn't the other pronunciation are part of spoken dialects? MSA in Western Arab countries still use /dʒ/, if I am not mistaken. Also, please confirm that [j] is used in formal pronunciation of the letter in some countries. (We are discussing standard, not dialectal phonology?). In Egypt, pronouncing ج as [g] is considered standard. --Atitarev (talk) 23:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is Watson (2002).  Look at Classical Arabic.  Phonemically, there is no difference between Standard and Classical Arabic, but phonetically there are a few differences.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the different pronunciations apply to standard speech in those areas as well as dialectal speech or if it's just the latter.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Isn't there just one sound [ɟ], not 2? Quote: "The palatals /ɟ/ /ç/ (<ج> <ش‎>) became postalveolar: /dʒ/ /ʃ/" (EDIT: the Arabic letters have become reversed in my post - I meant /ɟ/ only applies to letter "ج".) --Atitarev (talk) 05:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you're asking.  [ç] is also a palatal sound and in classical arabic was represented by shin  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 06:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean, the reference is for the sound /ɟ/ only but the article says "In classical Arabic, this was either [ɟ] or [gʲ]." Is there a reference that it was also pronounced as [gʲ]?--Atitarev (talk) 21:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The reference claims that it was either  or . — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classical and modern standard pronunciation of ج? 

message: The article states that /lˤ/ occurs only in a handful of loanwords and /ʔalˤˈlˤaːh/, the name of God, i.e. Allah, except when following long or short /i/ when it is not emphatic: bismi l-lāh [bismilˈlaːh] ('in the name of God').
However, work by a number of phoneticians has demonstrated, fairly conclusively, that the dark /lˤ/ occurs far more often than this. Charles A. Ferguson, for example, has shown that modern speakers of MSA tend to import their phonemic Dark L from dialects, such as Iraqi, where dark L is far more widespread.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Szfski (talk • contribs) 03:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh man, so that's something that varies amongst speakers from different regions.  It's strange, then, that MSA is given as a uniform thing when there's variance in a number of ways.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: True. The problem is that the different ways in which various Arabs speak MSA is poorly studied. Usually, when the phonology unique to a particular Arabic-speaking region is examined, it is almost always in the context of that region's colloquial dialect, and not the regionally influenced form of MSA that has sprung up in that area. Give me a few years to get my Ph.D. and I'll see what I can do about that. Until then, I'll do what I can with references like the one I just added.Szfski (talk) 07:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your English is quite clear.  Certainly better than my Arabic.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 06:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emphatic L? 

message: « Thelwall (1990) argues[12] that Arabic descriptions of a voiced pharyngeal fricative are incorrect and that Arabic varieties instead possesses a pharyngealized glottal stop ([ʔˤ]. Epiglottal realizations for /ħ/ and /ʕ/ have also been reported.[13]»
*The reason is, maybe linguists mix between the official Arabic (Literary Standard Arabic, that is connected the Classical[Quranic Arabic]) that is different from the Arabic dialects spoken across the Arab League states.
*In some Gulf states, their spoken dialect pronounces the Epiglottal /ħ/ and /ʕ/, While this isn't the standard pronunciation. However, the local dialect affects too much the pronunciation of the official Arabic (Literary Standard Arabic, that is connected the Classical[Quranic Arabic]). --Mahmudmasri (talk) 14:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That may be true, but my understanding is that so far no one has said "it may be epiglottal or a pharyngealized glottal stop in other dialects but it's a true pharyngeal fricative in this one." — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 20:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Consonants

message: In English for example the American mid-land accent is considered to the neutral English accent for all of North America. Does modern standard Arabic have an area that represents a neutral pronunciation? Egypt has media influence, Saudi Arabia has the heirtage, and Jordan a centering location, to any of them reflect a neutral pronunciation?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.60.200 (talk) 00:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Saudi Arabian Arabic variants aren't the closest to the Literary Arabic Standard. The Syrian is. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 16:52, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite the diglossia, where it is difficult to define what pronunciation is right or wrong in Arabic, there is still the Modern Standard Arabic, which has more or less clear pronunciation rules with some local variations. Anyway, we can stick to sourced materials and mention the local variations where needed. In formal situations, the accents of Al-Jazeera anchors may be of high prestige, IMHO, and may be used as a guide, everything else is dialects, discounting some minor differences. --Anatoli (talk) 21:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The differences in the possible pronunciations of MSA are enough that defining the prestige form is still problematic. How, for example, is one to know whether the final vowel of a word like اقتباس is [a] or [æ]? On Al-Jazeera alone, I have heard this word pronounced with [a] by Uthman Uthman and [æ] by Faisal al-Qassem. Likewise, the short /u/ (Damma) when following ع is problematic as well. I have heard Yusuf Al-Qaradawi pronounce this as a simple [o], whereas Faisal al-Qassem pronounces it as something resembling a close mid front rounded [ø] (a pronunciation I seem to hear from the occasional Syrian.) Others on Al-Jazeera pronounce it as a Near-close near-back [ʊ]. Then there is the whole mess of the emphatic L which almost always deviates from what textbooks tell you. My point is that even the forms looked upon as exemplary prestige MSA display great variation. When I have the time, I'm going to see if I can make this article reflect that. Szfski (talk) 12:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

text: You wrote:
Would you please mention that this is (probably) Gulf-Arab phonology?
*In Egypt, we pronounce those differntly; /kokæˈkoːlæ/, /læˈmuːm/, /dokˈtoːɾ/, /ˈʒoːn ~ ˈʒon/, /belˈʒiːkæ/, /sekɾeˈteːɾ/. (There is no /d͡ʒ/)     Mahmudmasri (talk) 16:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

text: No, the accent of Aljazeera isn't of high prestige. The supposedly standard MSA pronunciation isn't prestigious.  The Modern Standard Arabic spoken by Egyptians has  not  or . We were taught Arabic like that. You would never hear any Egyptian presenter pronounces  or . Only . It is not a matter of what is prestigious in Egyptian Arabic, it's a matter of how MSA is taught & used in Egypt. Generally  are all considered standard & correct pronunciation for . The  pronunciation is even closer to Classical Arabic pronunciation (), of which MSA was constructed from. So, speaking about what is correct & what is standard,  must be the standard & consequently more correct. Some words in Arabic have gemination, with  pronunciation, it is impossible to clearly audibly geminate the consonant. I've never heard , so as it is impossible by Arabic phonology rules, Classical or MSA (only,  or ). --Mahmudmasri (talk) 09:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the Egyptian pronunciation of MSA is obviously prestigious (and as such unmarked) in Egypt, but the original question was where there was a regional variation of the pronunciation of MSA that is (explicitly or effectively) considered neutral in the Arabic world in general. As for how to pronounce a geminated affricate, you simply geminate the first part only, namely the stop: . --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:22, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: A Neutral Pronunciation?

message: That is how Arabic letters are mostly pronounced by Egyptian Arabic speakers & are pronounced as that while reading in MSA. Notice also the Arabic diphthongs () are often pronounced  so as, Egyptian vowels are pronounced instead of the supposedly Arabic vowels even in MSA:
* Bold transcriptions are the supposed standard taught in Egypt.
ا  name:  —
ب  name:  —
ت  name:  —
ث  or  name:  —
ج  only! no  or  name:  —
ح  name:  —
خ  name:  —
د  name:  —
ذ  or  name:  —
ر  name:  —
ز  name:  not  —
س  name:  —
ش  name:  —
ص  &  name:  or  —
ض  or  name:  or  —
ط  &  name:  —
ظ  &  not  name:  —
ع  name:  (notice that Gulf Arabic  sounds more like  —
غ  not  name:  —
ف  name:  —
ق  name:  —
ك  name:  —
ل  name:  —
م  name:  —
ن  name:  —
ه  name:  —
و  name:  —
ي/ى  name: .
Modern Standard Arabic compared to Classical Arabic resembles Ecclesiastical Latin compared to Classical Latin.
--Mahmudmasri (talk) 08:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  For anyone 

message: * ڤ is not used in Persian language. See Persian alphabet.
* ڤ is used in Kurdish language, written in the Arabic script. I'm not sure which other languages use this letter. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 14:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  ڤ 

message: * In the section Cairene:  ('cheese') vs  ('our pocket'). The last two are pronounced as , to the extent, there is a famous joke mocking this indistinguishable pronunciation  ‹gébnæ gébnæ, ħɑtˤtˤenɑ̄hɑ f-gébnæ, wæʔʔǽʕet gébnæ› may also be transcribed in Arabic script as: جيبنا جيبنه, حطّيناها فـ جيبنا, وقّعت جيبنه, meaning: we got cheese, we put it in our pocket, Cheese dropped. The study of Watson fails to precisely explain the Egyptian pronunciation, especially in vowels. In Egyptian Arabic (Cairene), you can never pronounce ,  before two consonants, they are changed to , , or , . The so called  in word boundaries, is only in (East of) the Arabian Peninsula & Iraq. It is pronounced  in Egypt, even when pronouncing Modern Standard Arabic. In Lebanon, it is .
* In the section Consonants: In Arabic, they are called "mushaddadah" (strengthened), but they are not pronounced any stronger, just held longer. Between a geminate consonant and a pause, an epenthetic  occurs. The pronunciation of the schwa  in this case, which is as well pronounced when reciting Koran, is Arabian. I see that this study generalizing pronunciations specific to certain regions. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 05:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  (Eastern) Arabian Peninsula & Iraqi Pronunciation 

message: Right now the cell that represents the voiced velar plosive pronunciation isn't included in the group of cells reflecting the variable pronunciation of ǧīm. How should we address this?  We could maybe make the border between cells invisible, but I don't know how to do that.  — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 22:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: ǧīm in table

message: arabic phonetics are the three voices A o and E. they are not written, but deducted from reading.
in English Basket is written in Arabic BSKT.
BSKT could be read basket or beskuit, Baskat basakat, basakit, etc etc etc.
to know the pronunciation (aka vowels of each letter ie the hidden vowel after the letter, you definitely need to know arabic grammar. there is no substitution for that. Even if the vowels were given to you you still need arabic grammer to understand what it means.
a o e are very much exchangeable in a sec. don't rely on seeing a vowel and deducing that it will be repeated.
the basic grammar of ARABIC IS THAT ALL words are derived from three letter verb (root word). If their is no root word  for a word then it is not arabic inorigin. this verb (root word) is in the past tense
example:
FSL a root word (means seperated ie past tense) the phonetics of the root word is always aaa
Fsl reads Fasala
now lets come to a derivative word from FSL which is FSL
but not pronounced Fasala but pronounced Fasl meaning the action of separating.
Now
 the subject ie the one who do FSL (the separator)
Fasel.
FASL (pronounced as Fasel) is the standard subject derivative of the root word but is not the only one.
fsal (pronounced Fassal) is another one (denote extra doer)
Fsil (pronounced fasseel) is another one
it is the word place in the sentense that tells you it is a verb or a NOWN ETC HENCE ITS PRONUNCIATION THAT COMES INSTANTLY WITH THAT KNOWLEDGE.
If vowel letters are added to a sentense it will become impossible to read to the arabs.
since arabic is the most vowelistic language (you cant put that in writing) there will be too many vowel letters. arabs hate consonants without being voweled. the too many vowels in arabic is a characteristic of arabic not shared by another language.
seeing a word like BSKT you have to expect 4 hidden vowels immediately. arabs like to say rather Basaketa than basket.
the letters V G Q P are not existant in arabic or semitic languaqges, even arabs can pronounce them they are rather piggy sounds.
to say these letters in ancient times means you are foreigner or a perv, very shameful.
chinese referred to the Russians in ancient times as Yezuhi. of course Russian word come from Rose (the red color) meaning the red people
Rothschild means the red shield, the red color the color of the blood (hence the red flag was a testimonia that since blood are in humans and animals then humans are animals and should do away with religion, because blood is the only soul that comes out of dead hence the red flag of the communists)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zahida2013 (talk • contribs) 19:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: arabic phonetics

message: I notice that the section on syllable structure has no sources. I also notice that, if we are talking about MSA or CA, it is incorrect. In FusHa, semivowels are treated identically to consonants, and cannot come between either an initial consonant and the vowel or the vowel and a final consonant. The only exception is in pausal forms, where two consonants may come at the very end of a final syllable, but even then semivowels are treated no differently from other consonants.
2620:105:B00B:6801:FC96:A281:67EA:864A (talk) 21:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syllable structure 

message: Please add the orthographic version of the sample to the article. I can't do it, as I don't know the Arabic alphabet. Peter238 (talk) 13:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sample 

message: It seems to me like we should be using the Standard Arabic phonemes rather than trying to accommodate every single dialect. Our chart should be more similar to the International Phonetic Association's. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many phonemes? 

message: Substituted at 08:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: I realized that this article doesn't mention the fact that the phonemes /t/ and /k/ are actually aspirated ([tʰ] and [kʰ] respectively) which is an important property for these phonemes. Some old linguists such as Ibn AlJazari described these sounds as "whispered" which they explained to mean "the release of the stop is accompanied with a strong burst of breath that you can feel if you put your palm in front of your mouth." 
I was wondering if we should change the IPA chart to /tʰ/ and /kʰ/ instead of /t/ and /k/, or maybe at least make a point about it in the article.ICanHelpYou (talk) 18:22, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aspirated stops /tʰ/ and /kʰ/ 

message: E NASSER142010 (talk) 23:18, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extra grated Cheese