Talk:Swaminarayan/Archive 2

message: I suggest that we ensure what we are placing on these pages is accurate. Remember this is is encyclopedia and must be used as such.  Not for political/social believes.   The title of Succession indicates two links, which are fundamentally wrong, or the title is wrong.  The Succession disscusion should be about succession of Swaminarayan Bhagwan. For example his will, or what is termed ad Desh Vibhagh Lekh.  Therefore we should develop this section and indicate the true succession. As far as the links that are there they should be moved to a new title saying CURRENT FOLLOWERSHIPS...  Please Please let's avoid too much discussion and do this so that it remains neutral and accurate... Sincerely, Patel.   
BAPSExecutive 00:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  True Justice ==

message: HariBhagat, I posted this before but I never got an answer, as you dodged the question. To anybody out there, BAPS or Uddhav. Here are some questions.
I've got a question about ISSO's view on Swaminarayan... Why is he not in mukhya sthaan if you believe him to be supreme god? What's this about Narnarayan and LaxmiNarayan? And what's this about Krishna being above Swaminarayan?
I would just like to clear up one thing. ISSO is an organisation within the NarNarayan Dev Gadi (Amdavad)set up to improve satsang outside india. Basically Bhagwan Swaminarayan led a sect called the Uddhav Sampradaya. Now that Uddhav Sampradaya(known and referred to as Swaminarayan Sampradaya) was divided into 2 Gadis by Swaminarayan Bhagwan in Vadtal. The 2 Gadius are NarNarayan Dev Gadi (Amdavad) and LaxmiNarayan Dev Gadi (Vadtal).
Your post is confusing, please explain further
1. I know BAPS has Swaminarayan Bhagavan in their center shrine. Who does ahemdabad/vadtal have in their center shrine?
2. If Nar-Narayan is in the central shrine (mukhya sthaan) in uddhav mandirs, then how can you consider Lord Swaminarayan to be supreme when in fact he's not even in the principle altar.
3. Is Uddhav sampraday a Krishna sampraday with Lord Swaminarayan belittled to a mere saint? then why do you say Jai Swaminarayan? is it because you believe he was a simple cause of dharmic restructure and revelation?
4. Why is there Nar-Narayan Dev in some and Laxmi-Narayan dev in another? (HariBhagat, your rants about putting a saint or bhakta next to Lord Swaminarayan as blasphemous, likening this to Hanumanji and Brittney Spears, seems rather hypocritical and outlandish at best here don't they?)
5. Why are the aforementioned two "Devas" in the central shrine.
6. Why are Vadtal/Ahemdabad santos so lax in their neeyam dharma, is this not going against this true siddhant that you keep referring back to? (elections, killing, lack of nishkam)
7. When Lord Swaminarayan promised Kashidas of Bochasan a mandir, why is there not a vadtal mandir there?
PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS AND DON'T DODGE THEM, BY SAYING IT'S BEEN DISCUSSED OR PUT TO REST. THANKS IN ADVANCE. And, please don't begin the post with a "I'll try to be polite as possible" or "You are clearly uneducated" stunts to discredit the questions. Debating 101, don't attack the person attack the issue. LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU HARIBHAGAT LAL.
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Comment by BAPS devotee (I think) - HariBhagat, I posted this before but I never got an answer, as you dodged the question. To anybody out there, BAPS or Uddhav. Here are some questions.
Jai Swaminarayan, BAPS devotee
I think you are incorrect, I did not dodge the question but merely asked for further explanation of the actual question.
Comment by BAPS devotee - 1. I know BAPS has Swaminarayan Bhagavan in their center shrine. Who does ahemdabad/vadtal have in their center shrine?
In Amdavad and Vadtal the divine murtis of NarNarayan Dev and LaxmiNarayan Dev reside, which were placed there by Bhagwan Swaminarayan himself.
Comment by BAPS devotee - 2. If Nar-Narayan is in the central shrine (mukhya sthaan) in uddhav mandirs, then how can you consider Lord Swaminarayan to be supreme when in fact he's not even in the principle altar.
Are we now resorting to questioning the way of bhagwan? Do you believe in Swaminarayan bhagwan? Are you arguing from a BAPS or another sampradayas point of view? If it is another sampradaya then let me remind you that Krishna Upaasaks consider Krishna to be supreme yet he did not place idols of himself, he told devotees to do poojan of Gau-maata and Govardhan parvath. Ram bhagwan installed shiv lings, does this mean people cannot do their upaasna? If you are arguing from a BAPS then you are questioning your Ishtadev! Swaminarayan bhagwan said that I reside in those murtis, refer to Purushottam Prakash. 
Comment by BAPS devotee - 3. Is Uddhav sampraday a Krishna sampraday with Lord Swaminarayan belittled to a mere saint? then why do you say Jai Swaminarayan? is it because you believe he was a simple cause of dharmic restructure and revelation?
Uddhav Sampradaya was set up by Ramanand Swami(avtar of Uddhav). Ramanand Swami then passed the Gadi on to Sahajanand Swami in Jetpur. Sahajanand Swami then in Faneni revealed a Mahamantra to be recited for all devotees which was Swaminarayan. Thereafter many referred to this Sampradaya as Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Swaminarayan Bhagwan is the Ishtadev within the Uddhav Sampradaya, so in answer to your question no he is not belittled to be a mere saint. We believe he was more than just a simple cause of Dharmic restructure.  
Comment by BAPS devotee - 4. Why is there Nar-Narayan Dev in some and Laxmi-Narayan dev in another? (HariBhagat, your rants about putting a saint or bhakta next to Lord Swaminarayan as blasphemous, likening this to Hanumanji and Brittney Spears, seems rather hypocritical and outlandish at best here don't they?)
Right so now we get to the real root of your post and what you are trying to get at. Good point only difference is that Swaminarayan Bhagwan himself placed those murtis, name me on instance within the scriptures where he mentions that a saint is permitted to be placed next to him?
Comment by BAPS Devotee - 5. Why are the aforementioned two "Devas" in the central shrine.
This was Swaminarayan Bhagwans wish and might I mention he has stated that he resides within these murtis.
Comment by BAPS devotee - 6. Why are Vadtal/Ahemdabad santos so lax in their neeyam dharma, is this not going against this true siddhant that you keep referring back to? (elections, killing, lack of nishkam)
How did you come to the conclusion that Vadtal/Amdavad Saints are lax in their neeyams? From a few stories? I know stories of former BAPS saints, I can go one further I know a few guys who actually went to become saints in BAPS. Let me tell you they had a few interesting stories, but that cannot be a basis of debate stick to siddhant(or to simplify it for you philosophical talks which can be derived from scriptures) The examples you give are those saints who used to be part of the Sampradaya, as soon as they were found out they were ex-communicated, just like Yagnapurush! Let me ask you a question why don’t BAPS saints take Bhagwati diksha from a Dharmavanshi Acharya(As per Swaminarayan Bhagwans wishes)? Those saints under Vadtal and Amdavad Gadi are still Saints of Swaminarayan Bhagwan, unfortunately same cannot be said of BAPS saints, who are as the name suggests saints of BAPS. 
Comment by BAPS devotee - 7. When Lord Swaminarayan promised Kashidas of Bochasan a mandir, why is there not a vadtal mandir there?
Your story may be true or on the other hand it may be BAPS made up tale. Find a reference to back up your point because it is not a well known fact. 
Comment by BAPS devotee - PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS AND DON'T DODGE THEM, BY SAYING IT'S BEEN DISCUSSED OR PUT TO REST. THANKS IN ADVANCE. And, please don't begin the post with a "I'll try to be polite as possible" or "You are clearly uneducated" stunts to discredit the questions. Debating 101, don't attack the person attack the issue. LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU HARIBHAGAT LAL.
I have not used the statements you mention in my post, also I am not personally attacking you I am answering back to your questions. Finally I would like to point out I have attempted to answer your questions, lets see if you can do the same on archive 1 for my posts(Scriptural reference is essential, prasangs just don’t cut it unfortunately). Perhaps you could answer back to all my posts, rather than picking bits and pieces which you feel confident about. Look forward to hearing from you to
P.S Haribhagat is sufficient no need to add LAL
Haribhagat 15:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philosophical Questions 

message: Wikipedia supports non-objective viewpoints, but this article is clearly biased as it includes only the opinions of the one group within the Swaminarayan sect of Hinduism - ISSO. The true viewpoint of BAPS is not represented accurately.
Dear BAPS devotee, ISSO(an organisation set up by Amdavadad Gadi) is not a sect. In regards to BAPS, they are not even true so why should anyone consider their viewpoint. Please read Archive 1. 
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Jay Swaminarayan to all
This discussion board as been added as a feature to all articles on Wikipedia for a reason that, so all people can communicate and place their opinions regarding the chosen article, so by communicating the public can come to some conclusion on how to modify their chosen articles.
This reasoning for the Swaminarayan Bhagwan discussion page is no different, so why the page has been cleared I can’t understand because if this discussion page is cleared every time it gets slightly heated or if somebody wants to start a new topic than it would defy being a discussion page and if it was to lose all the in-depth discussions the page would lose all credibility. 
All I request is for the individual responsible for clearing the page please revert it back to its original status for his/her own dignity. If this is not done within three days than I will change it back myself but as well as that it will show the true colours of this individuals feelings towards other peoples opinions and views. 
Also can all edits be taken after its been discussed on this page.
Jay Swaminarayan
Raj - सनातन धर्म 00:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't blank it, but I've restored the blanked material as the first archive and listed it at the top of the page. —Hanuman Das 01:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Violation 

message: It's hard to talk to someone with no name, only a number. Why don't you get an account? Read Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#External_links. The only external links allowed in the body of the article are the automatically numbered ones like this . In the body of the article, you may not put text like a name inside the link. That may only be done in the External links section. Please learn to refer to the Manual of Style and other WP policies and processes yourself and stop revert warring. Thanks. —Hanuman Das 14:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linking from body of article (for anon) 

message: Jai Swaminarayan,
Obviously, we have our different opinions, and we should respect them. Maharaj says in Gadhada I-76 that he does not get along with an egotistical person. With that said, let's put aside our ego, and try to reach a compromise on this issue. After all, as the representatives of the two largest groups within the Swaminarayan faith, we should try to present a united image as opposed to a bitter, divisive front. 
Haribhagat, you clearly have some strong sentiments about the Vadtal/Amdavad Sampraday, and I respect them. They may be better served in a separate article. Bhagwan Swaminarayan is the overall binding force behind all of our sansthas, so we should respect an air of neutrality in this article. We can list the links to BAPS and the Vadtal/Amdavad Sampraday in the External Links, so people can read about the different groups. 
Let's allow people to make informed decisions rather than trying to control them. That is, after all, Wikipedia's purpose in creating an open-source encyclopedia.
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Sincerely,
Moksha88 14:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Violation 

message: Um yea is this page good. So can you please answer my questio as to why Swaminarayan renounced the world then gave his brothers control of the sampraday. it doesnt make sense. also why does i seem as though the gadis are attacking BAPS- do they feel threatened?67.150.83.197 22:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk 

message: Jai Swaminarayan,
BAPS is a separate legal institution within the Swaminarayan faith and by labeling it as excommunicated misrepresents the group. Shastriji Maharaj left before being excommunicated; he never once laid insult to Acharya Laxmiprasadji, who was later removed for his misconduct, or the other sadhus who were bent on killing him. As a result, let the link description to BAPS stand as is. 
Moksha88 21:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link Descriptions 

message: Hi, 
I just wondered what people's opinions would be on updating the first image in the article. Whilst it is a picture of a murti that most Swaminarayans hold dear and find attractive, I can't help but feel that perhaps a painting or illustration of Bhagwan Swaminarayan might be more appropriate and helpful in providing people with an idea of what he looked like. I'm not suggesting we delete the image of Ghanshyam Maharaj, perhaps we could move it to another place in the article? Also, all the images in the article have come from the Swaminarayan Sampraday. Perhaps a murti from another organisation could be included? Regardless of whether or not the murti has been installed by an acharya or not, it can't be denied that the 'statue' represents Bhagwan Swaminarayan, even if there is no prãn within. Thanks Dylanpatel 17:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image update