Talk:Chatham Borough, New Jersey

message: OK, go ahead. How exactly does CNN/Money prove that they can tell the difference between Chatham borough and Chatham township? They refer to a town called "Chatham." How do you know that they aren't referring to both Chathams, and are only referring to the Borough? Yes, it has a direct rail link to NYC. So what? The combined Chatham borough and township have a rail link. Just because it's located in the borough doesn't mean that Chatham = Chatham borough. Just as if it was in the township, it wouldn't mean that Chatham = township. No one who's outside the area will even suspect that there's a difference between the borough and township, because in general, such a case (of both a borough and township having the same name) is rare.
The point remains: anyone who hasn't researched the area or lived there will assume that Chatham = Chatham Borough + Chatham Township. Hell, even the post office thinks that way. To be honest, the article Chatham, New Jersey shouldn't even redirect to the borough, but should instead be a disambiguation page. But that's for another discussion.  —lensovet–talk – 01:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chatham or Chatham Borough? 

message: I'm disturbed by the level of animosity in what to call the non-Township Chatham. I will say that the Census Bureau is a spectacularly poor source to use to determine the name of the municipality. Far more relevant would be references by the municipality to itself (though a web site will often use a formal name that isn't used venarcularly) and to how the locality is referenced by locals, say in the media. Using the Census Bureau proves absolutely nothing. Alansohn 01:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, let's ask the town itself....its website is chathamborough.org and the title? is Borough of Chatham. The borough Council agenda minutes say Borough of Chatham on them. Is that enough? —lensovet–talk – 01:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Guess what? My webpage refers to the combined area, not to the borough specifically. —lensovet–talk – 01:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Interesting proposition – what is the name of the town then? Whatever you determine it to be? —lensovet–talk – 03:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I invite you to participate in a discussion relating to this matter over at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)#How do we find out the city name?. Please hold off on editing and discuss this matter further there. Thanks. —lensovet–talk – 03:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: They are two different (but equal) types of municipality, both incorporated. In this they differ from NY, and most other states.  See Township (New Jersey) for much, much more. Septentrionalis 15:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: With the exception of the really extraordinary case of Shrewsbury Township, this doesn't make very much sense; and Shrewsbury, New Jersey should be a dab page, including New Shrewsbury  (now Tinton Falls, but the name can still be found.  Certainly with Freehold and Egg Harbour, the Township is as important as the borough. Septentrionalis 20:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Chatham Borough is properly so called (see NJ Municipal Data Book); it, like Florham Park and Madison. was split off from Chatham Township  between 1889 and 1897. The whole shebang is less than 25 sq. mi.; and the suggestion that it was "difficult to govern" requires sourcing: Most of the changes of that era were property tax disputes, and there were significant minor shifts of land after partition. I oppose Mendham, New Jersey for Mendham Borough unless usage can be shown; a collective article on both Mendhams would be the proper article for that name. Septentrionalis 22:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chatham vs. Chatham Borough

message: Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#talk:_Chatham_Borough.2C_New_Jersey  has discussion regarding this issue also -- should be part of this consideration -- sorry for any duplication -- but let's get it all on one page -- here 
:Comment:The Census Bureau should not be used as a standard on New Jersey geography; they do not understand it, and never have. I don't pretend to know Morris County well enough to know whether Chatham is common usage there. Septentrionalis 15:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a content dispute - not something requiring admin attention. Stop attacking each other and just write out the fact that the name 'Chatham' often gets used to describe what might more precisely be called 'Chatham borough', 'Chatham township', and/or BOTH of those together. Put a nice explanation like that on each page, have 'Chatham, NJ' itself as a disambiguation page to the two articles, and off you go. If you can't manage that... see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Or just meet down at the train station and duke it out under the mulberry trees. :] --CBD 17:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  CBD, I know you're only making a joke here, but not too long ago two people attempted to settle a flame war in a shopping mall parking lot, with lethal results. (I'd hope that Wikipedians would be too smart to imitate this as a means to resolve conflicts, but some days I have my doubts.) -- llywrch 19:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, sorry. I thought it was too absurd to actually be contemplated (i.e. fisticuffs over what the name 'Chatham' refers to), but as the link you cite shows... the world can always be just a little more absurd than you thought it could. --CBD 13:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sorry too. Now we can all feel nostalgic for the good old days of just a few weeks ago, when the worst that anyone could expect to happen in a flame war is that someone gets banned from Wikipedia for incivility or threats. :( -- llywrch 19:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chatham - transfer discussion from admin notice board 

message: :No, actually, it means one of the five types of government; but New Jersey has eleven forms of municipal government, and the six more modern ones are open to all types of municipalities, whether borough (New Jersey) or not. This article needs a source which specifically says whether Chatham Borough has a Faulkner form or not. Septentrionalis 23:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chatham, New Jersey - discussions merged to one page here 

message: :Whoa. I never said that Chatham = Chatham Township, you just made that up. I said that Chatham, no modifier, is ambiguous. And it is. Just because a consistency exists doesn't mean that it's actually correct. Once we get this settled, it would make a lot of sense to re-evaluate the rest of Foo, New Jersey articles to make sure that they are correct.
:The way I see it, the real solution is this: make Chatham, NJ not a redirect but a page that briefly describes that the name can mean either the two communities as one, or one, or the other. we can also talk about what history the two towns share. then, you link to both the borough and township for more specific info, like the demographic and geographic info. this would also allow us to place the library and schools info on one page so that we don't have to duplicate it on two separate pages like we do now. —lensovet–talk – 02:01, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chatham, New Jersey discussion resumed 

message: Please note that we now have a real page over at Chatham, New Jersey, which should be the place for common history and facts to the two towns. For example, the tidbit about the history of the name having to do with the Earl of Chatham clearly belongs on the common page. The splitting of the township could be put there as well, so people know that the township came first and why there are these two separate towns.
It is also important to go through the two articles and move any duplicated/common text to the common page. That way, if any changes are made, they have to be made in just one place. Great work by all. —lensovet–talk – 05:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compromise reached 

message: I have a question to ask our fellow anonymous user. When was the last time s/he set foot in chatham? currently the edits are being made from california. a lot of these edits reek of someone who's either nostalgic or out of touch with the area. i lived there permanently until just a year ago, and was there this last summer for 2 weeks. i can swallow the historical stuff because i simply don't know any facts to the contrary, but the contemporary definitions imposed by the user are simply false. no one calls the two chathams the chathams, and the library and school district have nothing to do with why they would name both towns as chatham. I mean seriously, where is this sentence coming from?
:Chatham, New Jersey, when mistakenly used to mean two joint governmental activities actually organized under the name "The Chathams," is thought by some to refer to a school system and a library system shared by two abutting Morris County, New Jersey municipalities:
um, what? chatham is used to say the land area covered by the two towns. if someone's referring to the governments, they'd actually make the point of clarifying which one they are talking about. otoh, if someone asks you where do you live?, the response is simply chatham, even if you live in the township. no one thinks that chatham, nj referse to the school system and library. that was just pulled out of the writer's butt. —lensovet–talk – 03:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The anon's edits are unsourced and pointless chauvinism. Chatham Borough was formed in 1897, doubtless out of the more long-settled parts of Chatham Township; but to claim that they have been separate settlements is unsourced error. I shall undertake to watch this page actively. Septentrionalis 20:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Authority? 

message: Reading the history of the area shows clearly that the settlement of Chatham began in 1710 when it was founded close to the shallow crossing of the Passaic River. the first recorded colonial name for that settlement was derived from the man who built Day's Bridge at that location. The colonial buildings built at that time are well documented and some remain. The township that was formed in 1798 included several settlements (including Chatham) and was called Chatham Township -- is a form of governance that did not exist before that date 1798. As soon as another form of government was allowed in the state, three settlements in Chatham Township seceded and reestablished their independence. This information is available on the references cited on pages being fought over (based upon a personal ignorance that is acknowledged above). There is no town called Chatham Township, there never has been. It is a governmental entity that includes several long established settlements (think of a county -- where is its main street?). List the streets included in the downtown of your mythical town of Chatham Township, give its dimensions, and document the stores and offices therein.
:Nonsense; Townships have existed in New Jersey since 1664; see Middletown Township, New Jersey; in fact, Chatham Township was formed (in 1806) out of Hanover and Morris Townships.  Chatham Borough did not exist as a municipality of any kind before 1892; it was never an independent municipality before 1897. Septentrionalis 13:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense; see Township (New Jersey). Septentrionalis 13:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: YET AGAIN, in modern usage, "Chatham" is NOT synonymous with "Chatham Borough".... —lensovet–talk – 21:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: How do we find out the city name?
This might seem silly, but how do we determine a city's name? In the process of a discussion at Talk:Chatham Borough, New Jersey, an anonymous user as well as a respected editor dismissed Census bureau data as incorrect. Alansohn then suggested that references by the municipality to itself [would be relevant]; the anonymous user retorted with The name of the government is not the name of the town.
So...how do we resolve this? Thanks. —lensovet–talk – 03:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  interesting discussion elsewhere 

message: Chatham Borough DOES NOT border on:
   Long Hill Twp (now Passaic Twp.)
   Harding Twp.
   Berkley Heights
   New Providence
   Morristown
   New Vernon
   Short Hills is an unincorporated are of Milburn.
To my knowledge, there are no portions of the Great Swamp in the Bourough, and the portions mentioned in the article are  actually in Madison, Chatham Twp., Harding Twp. and Passaic Twp. The site http://www.fws.gov contains a map of the Great Swamp, as does the Wiki article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Swamp_National_Wildlife_Refuge
I submit that the two articles should be in agreement.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.51.245.98 (talk) 04:19, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in description of adjoinging towns 

message: Alan - Please advise what is the policy about removing outdated sources with better sources. It does not seem to make sense to leave in an outdated source if the new sources have updated information and more complete details. 
I have tried to replace an outdated 1991 Record article source related to Leanna Brown under Notable People with 2 new sources that have updated information about the referenced 1991 election in the Record article and more complete details about Leanna Brown's political life. The outdated 1991 Record article source that I removed is then put back in even though the 2 new sources supersede it and provide more complete details about Leanna Brown's career.Wondering55 (talk) 22:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replacing outdated Record article source 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Chatham Borough, New Jersey's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Committee":
From Boonton Township, New Jersey: Township Committee, Boonton Township. Accessed July 19, 2016.
From Millburn, New Jersey: Township Committee, Township of Millburn. Accessed July 4, 2016.
From Mendham Township, New Jersey: Mendham Township Committee, Mendham Township. Accessed June 24, 2015.
From Long Hill Township, New Jersey: Township Committee, Long Hill Township. Accessed June 24, 2015.
From Morris Township, New Jersey: Township Committee, Morris Township. Accessed June 25, 2015.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 16:49, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Chatham Borough, New Jersey]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I don't understand how the town couldn't know that the Summit Greek restaurant owner who bought the village and then had the William Pitt Restaurant burned down. What an atrocity, to lose this historic village so he could reconfigure it with multiple rental buildings all in the name of as much money as he could make.
He NEVER belonged in Chatham. 68.80.132.87 (talk) 05:32, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  William Pitt Village