Talk:Arab citizens of Israel

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure)  microbiologyMarcus [petri dish·growths] 20:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Arab citizens of Israel →  – Following the even votes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Palestinian citizens of Israel, the discussion was closed as merge. That article had been created as an outcome of another even vote at Talk:Arab citizens of Israel/Archive 8#Requested move 27 October 2021, which talked about a refactoring of the content if the name was changed. Implementing this merge will result in such a refactoring. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Having said that, it is not clear that the current proposal is neutral either therefore I think we need to find a consensus via an RFC and not by an RM where editors are simply going to !vote their POV as is occurring here already.Selfstudier (talk) 11:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a fair enough point – what would be a neutral term in your opinion? GnocchiFan (talk) 10:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Atm, I am simply considering an RFC with question "Is the current title NPOV? If not, what would be an appropriate title?" Selfstudier (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Relisting comment: There seems to be consensus that the current title may be NPOV but that the proposed title isn't better. Relisting to see if any NPOV titles are proposed. Bensci54 (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Support renaming to "Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel" as a middle ground, which builds on the consensus of the AfD to merge the two articles. Also important to note that a quick google search reveals that "Palestinian citizens of Israel" shows 191k results, while "Arab citizens of Israel" shows 142k results. Aside from these search results, majority of "Arab Israelis" are Palestinians, so we are giving undue weight here to the minority of "Arab Israelis" who do not identify as Palestinian for whatever reason. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Are some Palestinian citizens of Israel not Arabs? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that I can think of; but allegedly, some Arab citizens of Israel are not Palestinian, or at least they do not identify as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

text: It really depends how you define Arab. For example there are Palestinian Christians who came from Greece in the early 20th century, but now speak Arabic. Are they Arab Christians? Or Arabic-speaking Greek Christians? The more you discuss ethnicity and identity, the more you unravel what a load of meaningless drivel it all is – except that is, of course, for use in racist rhetoric. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

text: It's not really the issue, the Israeli POV simply classifies the population that is not Jewish as Arab, a practice that goes back to the Balfour Declaration ("existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine") and which then forms the basis for discrimination against that population. Selfstudier (talk) 10:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's an important question here. We shouldn't use an article title saying "A and B" if A is a subset of B. That would be redundant and confusing to readers since it would imply a non-subset relationship. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The more important thing is that "Arab citizens of Israel" is an Israeli invention and terminology, regardless of what subsets it contains. Selfstudier (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The real problem is the merger, the arguments for which were born out of deep miscomprehension. As noted, "Israeli Arabs" is an Israeli administrative categorization; "Palestinian citizens of Israel" was a topic/page about identity. The merger will erase the page about identity in favour of maintaining only a page about the administrative term – a somewhat onerous erasure. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:40, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 21 March 2024 

message: Number 57 commented above that "I don't think anyone would have a problem with an article on Palestinian identity in Israel". They must have forgotten the opposition to this exact proposal that they made 2.5 years ago (Talk:Palestinian citizens of Israel#Requested move 26 November 2021). Onceinawhile (talk) 14:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Identity

message: Example sourcing:
 ...what label should be attached to them? Much more than merely semantics is at stake. how one chooses to identify the Arab minority in Israel is often indicative of one’s politics. Supporters of Israel generally refer to the Arab community in Israel as "Israeli Arabs" or "Arab Israelis" – using the terms commonly used by Israeli governments, the Hebrew-language media in Israel, and most Israeli Jews. Critics of Israel, by contrast, tend to describe Israel’s Arab citizens simply as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs. in doing so, they emphasize the Palestinian national identity of the Arab population in Israel and clearly reject the Israeli state’s longstanding avoidance of that label. Which, if any, of these names is correct? Are Arabs in Israel "Israeli Arabs" or "Palestinian Arabs"? Are they Israelis or Palestinians?  Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The quotes you provided do not provide data about Arab-Israeli self-identification. I provided data which shows that by 2020, 51% of Arab-Israelis explicitly identified as Arab-Israeli or simply "Arab" over Palestinian. Noah 💬 21:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's Reuters in 2023 "Most Arab citizens in Israel are descendants of Palestinians who stayed in the new Israeli state after a 1948 war. Largely self-identifying as Palestinian, they have long pondered their place in politics, balancing their heritage with Israeli nationality." Selfstudier (talk) 21:46, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, Reuters does not cite a source for their claim that they largely self-identify as Palestinian. Noah 💬 21:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct, I am citing Reuters for the claim. Selfstudier (talk) 21:51, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

text: And here I am citing Cfr as of October 2023 What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel "Israeli government documents and media refer to Arab citizens as “Arabs” or “Israeli Arabs,” and some Arabs use those terms themselves. Global news media usually use similar phrasing to distinguish these residents from Arabs who live in the Palestinian territories. Most members of this community self-identify as "Palestinian citizens of Israel," and some identify just as “Palestinian” to indicate their rejection of Israeli identity. Others prefer to be referred to as Arab citizens of Israel for various reasons. The phrase is used in this Backgrounder, as it represents the current political and legal reality." Selfstudier (talk) 21:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

text: And here the FT as of December 2023 "In the other corner, the 2mn Arab-Israelis, most of whom identify as Palestinians and are sympathetic to the decades-old Palestinian cause, have been outraged by the death and destruction caused by Israel’s bombardment of Gaza." Selfstudier (talk) 22:04, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

text: And round it off with the NYT as of October 2023  Palestinian Citizens of Israel Are Wary, Weary and Afraid "Arab citizens of Israel, many of whom want to be identified as Palestinians, make up some 18 percent of the population. They have been caught for years between their loyalty to the state and their desire for an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, the creation of an independent Palestine and a better life for themselves." Selfstudier (talk) 22:21, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Might as well throw in the Guardian as of October 2023 as well, Arabs in Israel face reprisals over online solidarity with Gaza "Israeli Arabs, many of whom identify as Palestinian citizens of Israel, have expressed solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza amid Israel’s aerial bombing campaign" Selfstudier (talk) 09:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Merge was a mistake. I don't even agree that "merge" was the consensus of that AFD. In any event, since that AFD closed, I think something like 30+ new (as in not previously considered) sources, academic and news media, all modern (as in last five years or at least 21st century), have been analyzed/quoted by various editors here, which is grounds for revisiting the merge. If this article stays titled/scoped as "Arabs in Israel" it seems there are plenty of sources to support a separate child article specifically about "Palestinians in Israel". Levivich (talk) 17:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That last was my thought too. Selfstudier (talk) 17:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure merge was the consensus either. Is a review in order? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought about DRV but was hesitant because of the passage of time and now there's an RM and an RFC. Levivich (talk) 19:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, get all the relevant stuff out on the table in one place, the better to decide a course of action. Selfstudier (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Levivich, I agree that much of the media has switched usage and there is greater consensus that "PCI" is the preferred term by PCIs themselves, instead of "'48 Arabs" or "Israeli Arabs". However, I still insist that there is little to no evidence that separate articles are warranted for "ACI"s and "PCIs". Articles are not about what terms mean, that's what a dictionary is for. Articles are about "a people". In this case  the two terms ACI and PCI refer in 99%+ of cases to the exact same group of people, similar to "black" vs. "African-American" in the US refer to exactly the same group of people. The Druze are PCI, too (i.e. descended from the non-Jewish residents of Palestine in 1947) even if they don't prefer the term PCI. Really the only ACIs that are not PCIs are a few thousand Lebanese, a few tens of thousands Golanis (as they are descended from Syrian citizens), or the odd unique case of non-Jewish immigrants from other Arab countries (if there even are any). Those exceptions can be handled with a brief mention in the "terminology" part of the article. It should be one article and in my opinion it should be under the name of the preference of the people themselves, which is now majority "PCI".Keizers (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: One PCI article makes sense to me. Levivich (talk) 01:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: The current difficulties arise by virtue of the recent merge of Palestinian citizens of Israel into this article. The close said
"While there's no consensus that the article is a POVFORK, all seem to agree that there's a fair amount of content overlap between the two articles, even if the two population groups are not identical. This is a key criterion under WP:MERGE. Once we discard the views that are based on the "not the exact same population group" argument, we are left with a policy-based consensus to merge"
However, this argument is reversible, the merge could just as easily have been carried out in the other direction with the same logic. It was done that way because the editor proposing the merge asked for it, forcefully arguing (and editing) that there was no difference between PCI and ACI (which may well be true if one excludes the Druze). Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge was a mistake. I don't even agree that "merge" was the consensus of that AFD. In any event, since that AFD closed, I think something like 30+ new (as in not previously considered) sources, academic and news media, all modern (as in last five years or at least 21st century), have been analyzed/quoted by various editors here, which is grounds for revisiting the merge. If this article stays titled/scoped as "Arabs in Israel" it seems there are plenty of sources to support a separate child article specifically about "Palestinians in Israel". Levivich (talk) 17:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That last was my thought too. Selfstudier (talk) 17:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure merge was the consensus either. Is a review in order? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought about DRV but was hesitant because of the passage of time and now there's an RM and an RFC. Levivich (talk) 19:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, get all the relevant stuff out on the table in one place, the better to decide a course of action. Selfstudier (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Levivich, I agree that much of the media has switched usage and there is greater consensus that "PCI" is the preferred term by PCIs themselves, instead of "'48 Arabs" or "Israeli Arabs". However, I still insist that there is little to no evidence that separate articles are warranted for "ACI"s and "PCIs". Articles are not about what terms mean, that's what a dictionary is for. Articles are about "a people". In this case  the two terms ACI and PCI refer in 99%+ of cases to the exact same group of people, similar to "black" vs. "African-American" in the US refer to exactly the same group of people. The Druze are PCI, too (i.e. descended from the non-Jewish residents of Palestine in 1947) even if they don't prefer the term PCI. Really the only ACIs that are not PCIs are a few thousand Lebanese, a few tens of thousands Golanis (as they are descended from Syrian citizens), or the odd unique case of non-Jewish immigrants from other Arab countries (if there even are any). Those exceptions can be handled with a brief mention in the "terminology" part of the article. It should be one article and in my opinion it should be under the name of the preference of the people themselves, which is now majority "PCI".Keizers (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: One PCI article makes sense to me. Levivich (talk) 01:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The recent merge

message: The provides sources overall do not support the original wording.
The first source marked 8 does mention a majority but provides no citation or statistics and is also from 2012 and far less reliable than more current ones. 
The second source marked 9 references another article.
The third source marked 10 uses the same article as the second.
The referenced source  https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/18/palestinian-in-israel/  uses the numbers 30% and 17% which totals 47% or a minority not majority.  The source is from 2019 and references a 2017 study. So if there are any newer sources they should be considered first.
Not done. There is an ongoing discussion about this and other issues on this talk page and it is indeed the case that many sources do say a majority even if those are not as yet included in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 17:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source Issues 

message: Each of the terms is an imperfect descriptor, but there are several sources (cited in the third sentence of the article's introduction) which suggest that the majority of this community prefer to refer to themselves as "Palestinian citizens of Israel"; this descriptor, if not used as the title of the article, should at least be one of the terms listed in the parentheses with alternate variants in the first sentence. 
Separately, there is an error further down the page that should be corrected: in the section "Terminology and identity", under the subheading "Demonym preferences", there is a sentence that contradicts the source that it cites (source 43: https://www.kas.de/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=0e141dca-8ac4-a77f-7045-f3a7d4c30991&groupId=252038). The sentence is: "However, these findings conflict with a 2017 Tel Aviv University poll which showed most Israelis self-identify as either Arab-Israeli or simply Israeli." There are several important errors here. First, the source poll doesn't use the terms "Israeli Arab" or "Arab Israeli", instead using "Arab in Israel / Arab citizen of Israel", which is the category a plurality of respondents preferred (p 22). Likewise, contrary to the assertion in the sentence from the current Wikipedia entry, the proportion who identified as simply "Israeli" was the only the third most common choice after "Arab in Israel / Arab citizen of Israel" and "Palestinian" (p 22). Additionally, regarding the focus groups conducted separately from individual polling, the source notes: "The designation 'Israeli-Arab' aroused great opposition" (p 28), and, "The designation 'Arab citizens of Israel' was acceptable to them ... Conversely, the participants spoke out against the designation 'Arab-Israeli'" (p 25).  Hyacinth house (talk) 06:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Including "Palestinian citizens of Israel" as one of the variants at the start of the article; and correcting a related error 

message: The sentence "Travel permits, curfews, administrative detentions, and expulsions were part of life until 1966." is unnecessarily repeated twice. It exists both in sentence 3 of paragraph 2, and the end of paragraph 2. Redbeansoup (talk) 08:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplication in "1949-1966" section