Talk:Messianism

message: Totally incoherantZestauferov 13:59, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I added new forms to the list, which now includes: Christianity, Judaism, Zionism, Islam, and Adventism.--Cberlet 17:37, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: new forms added

message: This is being proposed. Please post all comments and discussion regarding the proposed merger at: Talk:Messiah#Merging_with_Messianism as per Wiki guidelines. --Cberlet 14:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging with Messiah 

message: * This article cites no sources and gives grossly inadequate references for the reader to check further.
* Consider the intro: "Messianism is any Judaic based field of philosophy which concerns itself with the interpretations of messianic fulfilment."
** What the heck does that mean?
** What is "messianic fulfillment"?
** How is Islamic messianisim Judaic-based?
* Is this close to "Messianic" in the sense of "Messianic Judaism"? Some contributors to the Messianic Judaism article seem to think so. (particularly in prior versions of the article).
* The term "Jewish messianic groups" needs to be clarified. The beliefs of "Messianic Judaism" regarding the purpose and coming of "Messiah Jesus" are virtually identical to evangelical Protestantism. (I am Messianic and I attend both a Messianic synagogue and a Protestant church and have taken seminary-level courses at both.)
* "Adventism" is confusing. Does this have to do with "advent" in the sense of "to come" or Seventh-Day Adventists?
* Is this widely-accepted terminology and are these widely-accepted definitions? I have read a lot of Christian, Jewish and Messianic books and completed about 15 courses in Christian and Messianic subjects and I have not run across most of these concepts and this terminology.
* Regarding the statement that Islam claims Jesus is the true Messiah, I have heard the exact opposite (admittedly, from evangelicals, not Moslems). Regarding Jesus, the Quran says, "They killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear. Nay, God raised him up unto Himself."
: I have been told the Moslem interpretation of that is that Allah raptured (Christian term) Jesus and transfigured Judas to look like Jesus and Judas was the one who got crucified. Once in the presence of Allah, Allah told Jesus (my paraphrase), "You told people you are my son. I don't have a son. Why did you do that?" In the presence of Allah, Jesus repented for lying and Allah, being merciful, forgave him. In the last days, Jesus will come with the Mahdi and tell people, I am not the Messiah, he is."
:If what I have been told is fairly accurate, then the article incorrectly states that Islam believes Jesus is the true Messiah.
Unlike other divine religions, Islam does not include a Messiah that will come shortly before the end of human societies.
* After reading the article it still is not fairly clear exactly what "messianism" is!
* Despite its length, at this point the article is really just a stub, because each section does not adequately address its topic.
I am not raising these points to "whine and complain" but to point out that the article has serious problems that need to be addressed.
:RickReinckens 03:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Right on. This is seriously substandard. I mean, to begin with, messianism is a broad concept-- it doesn't just apply to Judaism and the Abrahamic religions. Any system of beliefs that includes the idea of a messiah, a divine being come to fulfill religious prophecy, is messianic. I think this needs a total rewrite. Freddie deBoer 00:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't quite understand why some people try to present Messianism as a Judaism-based concept, except perhaps as a part of the effort of some groups such as Messianic Judaism to present Jesus as the "one and only" true Messiah and Judaism as some sort of precursor to his coming.  When one leaves attachment to that agenda behind, it is easy to see that Messianic attitudes and expectations are very much a common motif for many religions and not only those with some (often very removed) connection to Judaism.  See for instance Church of World Messianity.  Legends about the coming of annointed ones are fairly commonplace.  Luis Dantas 10:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The word "messiah"" is a transliteration of a Hebrew word appearing in the Hebrew Bible, so the use of the word can imply some attachment to its origins. In the absence of an acknowledged historical or express ideological relationship, claims that beliefs of one religion are "really" the same as beliefs of another religion requires having an agenda of its own, which can reflect its own attachments. Perhaps a more generic term than "Messianism" should be used for such an undertaking. After all, the term has baggage. And with its baggage, it may be unnecessarily or inappropriately Judeaomorphic.  Perhaps a more generic term should be used for the general theme of a returning culture hero. Best, --Shirahadasha 19:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy Dispute 

message: Yesterday, 2602:306:8b4e:1050:8143:9ffa:a023:2204 changed the intro to assert that the "concept of messianism originated in Zoroastrianism." Despite the necessary linkage of the term "Messiah" with the Old Testament / Hebrew Bible, with which Zeroaster had nothing to do, I dispute whether the writings upon which 2602:306:8b4e:1050:8143:9ffa:a023:2204's claim is apparently based chronologically precede such OT prophets as the 8th-cent. BC Isaiah chs. 9 and 11. Moreover, the foundational messianic text is found in texts referencing the 10th century BC Davidic Covenant establishment (e.g., 2 Sam 7:12-16). So why not restore some meaning to the term "messianism" by limiting it within its context of linguistic, religious, and historical arising instead of universalizing it to reference any sort of deliverer? In addition, why not knowledgeably adjudicate what has the status as originating source for aforesaid messianism? If I don't receive adequate explanation to these issues from 2602:306:8b4e:1050:8143:9ffa:a023:2204 et al., then I will restore the intro to its Israelite context and best scholarly dating of sources. Olorin3k (talk) 12:51, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody has justified the claim that the "Messiah" concept or "messianism" originated in Zoroastrianism, so I am removing it. Just because a divine saviour has some similarity to the Israelite Messiah does not mean one can justifiably term it "messianism," nor is the origination claim either chronologically or causally substantiated.Olorin3k (talk) 11:24, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of Concept of Messianism

message: An editor who seems to know a bit about Hinduism has just removed all connections of this page to Hinduism, arguing that Messianism is a concept that definitely does not apply to Hinduism. They may be correct, I don't really know, but the section on Hinduism was referenced to a source, that is now removed from the page. I don't know if that source was reliable in any way or not, but I'd feel more comfortable with the removal if the editor or someone else discussed the quality of that source here, before the removal is accepted as final. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 21:11, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: From looking at the source that was removed, and at what the editor wrote in his edit summaries, it looks to me that Hinduism does have a certain belief in a future age where the world is made purer and better by the advent of a certain type of religious character. I would say that in that sense, this belief could be akin to what Western religions call "messianism." Maybe it is not the same thing, but it is a religious belief that is "akin" to Messianism. In that sense, maybe there is an argument for keeping the section on Hinduism that was removed, if a sourced note clarifying the distinction is also included? It is something I am thinking about. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 21:27, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Hinduism from this page 

message: according to Druze Jesus is a false Messiah and there was an Incarnation of Hamza ibn Ali who has sent him this Incarnation is the true Messiah not Jesus but Jesus gave Israel a false teachings (according to Druze) and falsely claimed to be Messiah and son of god, then God sent upon him the Jews and Romans who has killed him and humilated him because of his wicked acts and The true Messiah disappeared you can see Rasail al Hikma the holy scriptures of Druze in Arabic. 94.252.140.124 (talk) 11:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Druze on Jesus