Talk:Synonym (taxonomy)

message: Could someone find and include definition of this category of "synonyms". Shyamal (talk) 03:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Pro parte'' 

message: I have deleted the following example from the main page (this example was given for an objective synonym at the level of species):
::An example is the tarpan (the European wild horse) which was described by Johann Friedrich Gmelin in 1774. In 1784 Pieter Boddaert named the tarpan Equus ferus, referring to Gmelin's description. Unaware of Boddaert's name, Otto Antonius published the name Equus gmelini in 1912, again referring to Gmelin's description. Since the two names refer to the same description, they are objective synonyms.
This is incorrect. 
*"was described by Gmelin in 1774" is misleading, better write "described but not named".
*E. gmelini is not an objective synonym as long as there is no evidence that the two names are based on the same and only one name-bearing type specimen (and this would have to be stated as being definitely so in the text of the example). If Gmelin had had two type specimens at his disposal, then the two taxa are not objective synoynms (because a subsequent researcher could select specimen 1 as type for E. ferus, and specimen 2 for E. gmelini - and the two specimens could belong to two species). It must also be made sure that Antonius had no specimens at his own disposal, which would be additional types. But the evidence in Boddaert's work is enlighting:
*Boddaert 1784 gave a description himself for the animal and references to 3 previously published sources (Pallas 1775: 394 Tab. 7, Gmelin 1774 (1): 45 and Pennant 1771: 2). If no lectotype was designated, then Boddaert's own specimens, Gmelin's, Pallas' and Pennant's are syntypes for E. ferus, and Gmelin's and Antonius' those for E. gmelini.
*"In 1784 Pieter Boddaert named the tarpan Equus ferus" - also questionable. December 1784 was printed on p. VI of the work, true publication date was probably early 1785. I would also be cautious in such a case. --FranciscoWelterSchultes (talk) 21:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: tarpan example

message: An idea that was suggested to me, and that I support, is that this page should be split into separate zoology and botany pages, so that the two can separately be reworded without the current huge difficulty that neither code makes sense to followers of the other. (The bacteriology and virus people currently aren't catered for anyway, so presumably they could catch up later.) The current title is unfortunate because taxonomy is not just about biology, there are taxonomies of soils and minerals, and I don' know what else. I'd like to make the split soon. Nadiatalent (talk) 13:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I support a split if (and only if) there is still a short page which covers what is in the "General usage" section at present; in other words if there are three pages "Synonym (biology)", "Synonym (botany)" and "Synonym (zoology)" (not necessarily with these titles, although I prefer "Synonym (biology)" to "Synonym (taxonomy)"). What has been demonstrated, I believe beyond any reasonable doubt, is that it's impossible to write a proper lead section, i.e. which one both summarizes the rest of the article and which is accessible without the need to have understood the rest of the article. The present lead fails in a number of respects; one is that the example given in the first paragraph only applies to botany; changes of genus placement don't create synonyms in the full sense of the definition in the ICZN, whereas the paragraph carries the implication that this example is universally true. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:19, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So perhaps the first thing to do is to fix that example, and then rename this page and spin off two more pages, then start on the (massive) task of fixing all the incoming links. I'm not qualified to rewrite that example to fit a general biology page. Nadiatalent (talk) 16:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... In view of the massive number of links, I think that splitting requires a broader consensus than you and me, however right we are :-). Maybe it should be raised at WT:TOL? If there's agreement, those links which are generated from taxoboxes can be changed automatically I think: the taxobox template 'knows' the top level group (which is used to determine the colour used in the box for example), so the correct link can be created, BUT this does raise the issue of the groups not covered by the two main codes – some link would be needed for them. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously I am in favour of a split, as the present page gives me a headache forcing me to think across several worlds. It looks to me that the incoming links should almost all go to the general page ("Synonym (biology)" / "Synonym (taxonomy)" or whatever), as most usages will be in the general sense, names that used to be correct and widely accepted, but are no longer so. There will be relatively few pages that really need to refer to the exact usage in a particular Code of nomenclature. - Bluebell15 (talk) 14:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split into two pages ... 

message: It's clear that there are still problems with this article, caused by the points made above, in particular the differences between:
*the formal definition in the ICZN
*the formal definition in the ICN
*actual usage by biologists of names to which the ICZN applies
*actual usage by botanists of names to which the ICN applies
It's not clear to me what the answer is, other than to stress the need to define the context at every step. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:52, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, however if nobody has better text to suggest, I am generally happy that the article does state the correct situation as used "in practice". I have added a bit more info as well based on my own experience to date, also will add a few more sourced examples. Regards - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 04:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Still problems