Talk:Freda Utley

message: I took great pains to arrange for rights to the thumbnail of the subject that I uploaded, and to document those arrangements in the interrogation that one undergoes in uploading an image, but the image was squashed nonetheless. I am quite short of patience to pursue the effort further, and have invited to owner of the image to take up the baton. He is, however, not a Wikipedian of any sort, and I doubt he will do so, so readers of this article may either content themselves with imagining what Freda looked like, or follow the link profided in the Resources section of the article. Joe 16:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted Image 

message: FYI Three main sources: Farnie, Geyer and Beckett are not right wing. Another one is from Marxist.Org and another from International Socialist publication. Another one is from a critic of holocaust denial.  Two are mainstream sources Time Magazine (2x) and New York Times. I have made some of these connections clearer in footnotes.  Will look around for other sources using different search terms. Esp. for controversy section. {unsigned by carolmooredc earlier}
New Refs (links in actual article):
* 6. ^ Royden Harrison, Bertrand Russell and the Webbs: An Interview], from “Russell: the Journal of Bertrand Russell Studies 5,” issue 1 (1985), article 6, 48. 
* 8. ^ Martin Upham, The History of British Trotskyism to 1949, Part One, (1929-1938), Thesis submitted for the Degree of Doctor of Philosophy in the University of Hull, 1980.
* 18. ^ Alfred Rosner, Review of Ygael Gluckstein Stalin’s Satellites in Europe, International Socialism, Issue 103, July 5, 2004.
* 19. ^ E. Herbert Norman, Japan's Emergence As a Modern State, UBC Press, 1940, 43.
* 20. ^ Stanford University Japanese Collection.
* 21. ^ Justus D. Doenecke, Storm on the Horizon: The Challenge to American Intervention, 1939-1941, Rowman & Littlefield, published 2000, 254.
* 24. ^ Holocaust denial: Historical view; see Deborah Lipstadt’s criticisms from her book Denying the Holocaust.
* 25. ^ Sam Tanehause, Un-American Activities, Review of Arthur Herman's book Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator, New York Review of Books, Volume 47, Number 19, November 30, 2000.
* 26. ^ Thomas, S. Bernard, Season of High Adventure: Edgar Snow in China, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1996, 173.
* 27. ^ Richard Walker, China studies in McCarthy's shadow: a personal memoir The National Interest, September 22,1998.
* 28. ^ Executive Sessions of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee On Government Operations Volume 2, Eighty-third Congress, First Session, 1953, (Made Public January 2003), 140, 1051.
Carol Moore 02:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: POV Language Looking at this article yesterday realized that some of the language I left in from the original authors is rather dramatic, laudatory and otherwise POV and will change soon. Carol Moore 17:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: POV Check

message: Sentence Her book has been attacked as "Holocaust denial" because of such statements. was removed because the ref didn't have a page number from the Lipstadt book. (REFs being: Holocaust denial: Historical view and Deborah Lipstadt's criticisms from her book Denying the Holocaust at the FredaUtley Webpage. 
Google book search found a relevant statement on page 41 of 1993 version, though it's an incomplete search return sentence.  Because the Freda Utley site mentioned the criticism, I stuck it in way back when. But it seems the page's point was the absurdity of the claim that someone who pointed out American atrocities was automatically someone who denied Nazi atrocities. However, if there isn't a WP:RS saying so - and if that point not explicitly made on Utley page - I guess it's not that important. So just a note on that. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Lipstadt accusations too frivolous to mention if ref'd?

message: Re the above, I noticed the discrepancy too (from a Wikipedia link to this article) - but since this is Wikipedia my argument is how some (other) articles might be wrong or need to be change along with this one then;
 
This bit of this article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Peiper;
Peiper's attorney cited documents by Freda Utley, a Holocaust denier academic, which said that the U.S. Army had tortured the Waffen-SS defendants in the Malmedy massacre trial.
That links to here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
And here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freda_Utley
The first link says this;
Holocaust deniers make one or more of the following false statements:
Nazi Germany's Final Solution was aimed only at deporting Jews and did not include their extermination.
Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers for the genocidal mass murder of Jews.
The actual number of Jews murdered is significantly lower than the accepted figure of approximately 6 million, typically around a tenth of that figure.
The Holocaust is a hoax perpetrated by the Allies, Jews, and/or Soviet Union.[4][9]
But the second link says this;
Utley wrote in The High Cost of Vengeance: "I had referred to our obliteration bombing, the mass expropriation and expulsion from their homes of twelve million Germans on account of their race; the starving of the Germans during the first years of the occupation; the use of prisoners as slave labourers; the Russian concentration camps, and the looting perpetrated by Americans as well as Russians."[32] In her 1993 book Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory, the American historian Deborah Lipstadt critically examines the dissemination and impact of such arguments by Utley and other "revisionists", claiming that "the argument that the United States committed atrocities as great, if not greater, than those committed by Germany has become a fulcrum of contemporary Holocaust denial."[33]
i.e. Freda_Utley (merely) drew false equivalence - and that is cited as Holocaust denial in the 2 articles given - but false equivalence doesn't meet any of the 5 conditions in the main Holocaust denial article (see them above). So does that article need to be changed or a new term thought up to draw the distinction between the 2 points of view? (Outright denial and false equivalence). Which in any case wouldn't fit what Deborah Lipstadt said above.    — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.210.174 (talk) 20:21, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A "Holocaust denier" is both someone who denies it occurred and someone who draws false moral equivalence with Dresden etc? Even Wikipedia articles can't agree. 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Freda Utley. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.atlasusa.org/V2/main/page.php?page_id=48REF
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080229172226/http://www.fee.org/pdf/the-freeman/utley0705.pdf to http://www.fee.org/pdf/the-freeman/utley0705.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071201044256/http://www.conservativeclassics.com/books/Dissidentbk/book3.pdf to http://www.conservativeclassics.com/books/Dissidentbk/book3.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927211558/http://www.holocaust-education.dk/eftertid/holocaustbenaegtelseh.asp to http://www.holocaust-education.dk/eftertid/holocaustbenaegtelseh.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927211558/http://www.holocaust-education.dk/eftertid/holocaustbenaegtelseh.asp to http://www.holocaust-education.dk/eftertid/holocaustbenaegtelseh.asp
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/19991103122914/http://www.ffvf.org/campus/library.htm to http://www.ffvf.org/campus/library.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070824030031/http://www.atlasusa.org/V2/main/page.php?page_id=48 to http://www.atlasusa.org/V2/main/page.php?page_id=48
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thread_title:  External links modified