Talk:Primal therapy/Archive 1

message: I'm not sure about the purpose of the link. I hastily categorised it as spam when I should have categorized it as being not sufficiently relevant.  It muddies the waters with articles about drug induced regression (not used by Dr Janov or any therapists he has trained) and articles about "self-primalling".  To the best of my knowledge, Dr Janov has always been sympathetic to self-primallers but I think the proper way to make the connection you are desiring to make is to write articles on these subjects and put the link(s) there.  Those articles can link to the article on Primal therapy and explain the relevance. Also, if you want to defend your editing, I suggest you log in before you edit so there is a name, not just an IP number and sign off when you  post a discussion item like the one above.  I mean all of this in a constructive way and am open to further discussion. GrahameKing 08:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: reply to: Puzzling removal of "spam" links 

message: Hello. Just an idea: I mean it could be now adequate to mention the triune brain model of Paul MacLean in the article out there too. Jahn TALK TO ME ... 06:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Triune brain 

message: I had put this link back in because I saw a couple of articles that are relevant but they won't add anything beyond the other references.  I confess I was biased - they were written by an old friend. The John Lennon article linked to from the primal-page has been added by someone else to the Sidenote, an appropriate spot for it.  There are just too many irrelevant articles in primal-page.com for me to cull through and find something that is worth adding separately and so there are way too many for the average reader with less knowledge of Primal Therapy than I have.  If anyone finds individual web pages that really relate to Primal Therapy - not Primal Psychotherapy, Primal Integration, Primal Scream Therapy, and especially not Drug induced regression, I would be interested in having a look and discussing suitability. (Please post the exact link here.) Otherwise, clearly they may belong in another article but not in this one.
GrahameKing 10:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Primal-page.com link removed again

message: I found a Wikipedia article on the history of the Gate control theory of pain which Arthur Janov adapted to explain the gating of psychological pain between the 3 levels of consciousness. -- Simon (81.174.211.203 05:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gate control theory of pain

message: The article is coming along nicely. I'm wondering if a brief mention of Stettbacher's method belongs in the Techniques and Abuses section. Alice Miller explained why she withdrew her support for Konrad J. Stettbacher in an article on the International Primal Association website: Communication To My Readers. -- Simon (81.174.208.44 11:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Simon - and thanks for that gating link and some of the other material that I have used.  I just reread the Alice Miller statement and found again that it raises issues I don't yet know how to deal with in this article.  I'm actually trying to write my way out of it as briefly and clearly as possible. -GrahameKing 07:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Techniques and abuses

message: I removed the "Spam" tag because I think that a link to the website of relevant people providing the therapy (and I am a critic of the therapy, see history) the article is about is NOT "spam". I am open to suggestions about this issue. Randroide 12:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully concur, and would have removed that tag myself if I had noticed it. Cgingold 12:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Spam" tag 

message: ::FROM THE MAIN TEXT: it should not be forgotten that Primal Therapy is, first and foremost, an experiential psychotherapy. In Arthur Janov's words: "Although there are scientific references and citations throughout this work...feelings are their own validation....Their feelings explain so much that statistical evidence is irrelevant".
*A 36 year old "experimental" psychoterapy. Thats a loooong experiment, indeed, and I wonder if prospective patients are warned about the "experimental" nature of the therapy. I think that this line must be referenced or deleted.
*A purported scientist (Janov) who says that statistical evidence is irrelevant. Terrible, just terrible. 
*Freudian psychoanalysis, much derided and scorned by Janov, has been defended with the same kind of empty arguments: "...the profound insight gained by freudian psychoanalysis is his own validation... statistical evidence is irrelevant". "Arguments" used by Janov are a epistemological free-for-all.
Thank you to the guy who copied this priceless Janov quote.
Randroide 19:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm, please reread the quote you posted.  It says "experiential psychotherapy", not "experimental psychotherapy". Big difference. SweetP112 20:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are right. I swear that I "saw" the missing "m".. well, my brain added that "m" to the quote (like in those Gestalt optical tricks), and I only saw my error when you pointed at it. Thank you, SweetP112. Randroide 20:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double '''Ouch!!!''' 

message: Hi. I added a section about the Primal Institute at Paris. Any french contributor could take a look at French (specially parisian) newspapers in August 1985, because thre´s much more information about that issue (specially about the reasons for closing down in such a hurry the French operation), but it´s "on paper", not on the web.
I also added this line in "references":
*Articles about Primal Therapy  at PubMed.
As soon as I can, I will go to the library to check those articles and write a brief resume, althought maybe someone else could do that job sooner than me and in a more complete University Library. Randroide 13:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Janov at Paris and PubMed 

message: :After further reading of Wikipedia guidelines and consideration of this material on the Primal Institute at Paris, I have reverted to before the posting of the potentially libellous material - see:
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources
especially the line:
:Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events, politically-charged issues, and biographies of living people.
:-- grokking 17:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thankyou, Randroid. I was about to do that myself. You saved me some work.  -- grokking 19:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion of potentially libellous material

message: Discussion deleted by User:GrahameKing (a.k.a. grokking) from his own TalkPage for reasons unknow 
I think that the discussion is interesting, so I pasted the text in my own TalkPage: Click here to see the discussion. Randroide 17:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was looking for a better home for it and became distracted. What parts are of particular interest to you, Randroid? --grokking 23:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything is interesting, GrahameKing. Seems that the discussion finally found a new home at my talk page.Randroide 08:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of [[Primal Therapy]] article 

message: Section  removed by GrahameKing. It is sourced but sensitive, so I think that a two weeks period for checking the source is reasonable time span. Randroide 20:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section removed 

message: From Wikipedia:Requests for comment
::Create a section for the RfC on the bottom of the article talk page with a brief, neutral statement of the issue. 
OK, my RfC neutral text proposal:
PROPOSAL
----
:::This is a dispute about wether a block of text should be included or not in Arthur Janov or in Primal Therapy.
The text
::Arthur Janov started to offer Primal Therapy in 1982 in Paris, through an organization called the European Primal Institute (EPI). The European operation closed down in August 1985,  
 ...Inadequately sourced negative material removed as per WP:BLP.--GrahameKing 01:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Until last August, passers-by who were indiscreetly listening to sounds emanating from a quiet semi-detached house on the Avenue Marshal Foch in Paris, could frequently hear sobs, shouts of pain, and sometimes even real screams. Nevertheless, inside the house nobody was being tortured, at least not in the usual sense of the term, that is, unwillingly. In spite of being in the same place, the activities had nothing to do with the cellar having been used by the Gestapo more than 40 years earlier. []... The building was the headquarters of the European Primal Institute (IPE), founded and directed by the North American psychotherapist Arthur Janov. 
 ...Inadequately sourced negative material removed as per WP:BLP.--GrahameKing 01:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requests for comment 

message: :After further reading of Wikipedia guidelines and consideration of this material on the Primal Institute at Paris, I have reverted to before the posting of the potentially libellous material - see:
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources
especially the line:
:Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events, politically-charged issues, and biographies of living people.
:-- grokking 17:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion of potentially libellous material

message: Where exactly can you buy this book?  I can't find any places that sell the book:
*0 results on bookfinder.com
*0 results on abebooks.com
*0 results on alibris.com
*0 results on amazon.com
WatchAndObserve 16:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where to buy 

message: "Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events, politically-charged issues, and biographies of living people." (Exceptional claims require exceptional sources)
The source is credible enough - a respected journalist who had an inside contact in the cult - but this is extreme stuff and I haven't had the time to get the corroborative credible sources to back it up. Maybe it can be put back then.
-- GrahameKing 07:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph on the Center for Feeling Therapy removed because 

message: I have, once again, removed the line from the Sidenote re John Lennon about "the one-eyed witch-doctor leading the blind" as a supposed reference to Janov. While I would agree that it is a plausible claim, surely it must be clear that we need some sort of confirmation and sourcing for this claim. I just finished another round of internet searches, but there was nothing that came close to meeting that objective. The most I could find is the lyrics to the song, "Nobody Loves You (When You're Down and Out)" from the 1974 album, :Walls and Bridges, which is the source of the "one-eyed witch-doctor" quote. But there is absolutely nothing to suggest that it refers specifically to Janov; it's just as plausible that the line refers to, for instance, the :Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, or perhaps to both, or perhaps to someone else, or .... who knows?? Cgingold 05:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "one-eyed witch-doctor"