Talk:Lotfi A. Zadeh

message: his name is "Askar Zadeh"; which means "from the generation of Askar". why do the article calls him "Zadeh"? it means "son or daughter of ..." of "from the generation of ..."
Saeed.Veradi (talk) 16:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine it's because Zadeh is the name he uses — like "Johnson" means "Son of John," but it's also a family name. Thanks for your interest. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "ZADEH" means "SON OF" 

message: The article has been put in the category American Muslims. If Mr. Zadeh's mother was Jewish, then, technically, according to Judaic law, he is a Jew. In any case, such religion categories should only be applied if the subject self-identifies as an adherent of the religion, and even then, in my opinion, only if that fact has some relevance or notability. Wikipedia does not place (for example) Giuseppe Peano in category Italian Roman Catholics. Mr. Zadeh received his high-school education at a school founded by Presbyterian missionaries. Is there any specific evidence that Mr. Zadeh is a professing Muslim? If not, this categorization should be removed. 199.3.224.3 (talk) 01:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, his mother was Russian, and father Azeri. There are no sources saying otherwise. Grandmaster 12:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Someone removed the ethnicity of his father from the article, and I added it back. I don’t think that this information should be suppressed. Grandmaster 10:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

text: This page is for useful discussion between editors of things which are important for the article, and this question definitely is that.  There's nothing whatsoever "disrespectful" about discussing something like a subjects religious beliefs, it's important to us that we get it right. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:57, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jew or Muslim? 

message: Added some sectioning for context, the scientist info box (first changes anonymously), etc. Lycurgus 23:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lotfi Asker Zadeh was born in Baku, Azerbaijan. The article says so, therefore I reverted the edit that changed the birthplace to Iran. --Grandmaster 10:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maintenance 

message: Why do we have two different spelling of the name? Anyone has a source that says which one is correct. <BR>
We know that the vowel "a" in Azarbaijan and "al" (meaning hand) by Iranian Azarbaijanis (pronounced like "a" in "Sam" in English) is exactly the same as "ə" in Azərbaycan and "əl" ("a" in Azəri Latin alphabet is used for things like "alma", meaning apple). The letter "ə" becomes "e" when the words are imported in English, confusing big time and is a great source of argument over spelling and pronouncing things. For pronouncing "e" as in "pen" Azəri Latin alphabet uses "e", e.g. gedib, meaning gone. <BR>
However, Lotfi Zadeh had an Iranian passport when migrating to America so it is highly likely that his passport would have shown "Askar Zadeh" instead of "Asker Zadeh". Please provide sources in either case and lets make it one spelling across. Persian Magi (talk) 08:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no viable source has been provided for "Asker", I am suggesting to move the page to Lotfi Askar Zadeh or Lotfi A. Zadeh and redirect this page to that page instead. If I do not see a comment here for a while I will do so. Please let me know otherwise. Persian Magi (talk) 11:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr. Zadeh uses "Asker" himself; see for example here. Further evidence is this news article and this UCB page (go to 1969 and do a mouseover on the rightmost book, Systems Theory. However, I would agree to moving the page to Lotfi Zadeh (over the existing redirect), since that is the most commonly used name. 199.3.224.3 (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

text: yes. askar (عسکَر) is correct in arabic. it means "army". it became a name after "askari"; 11th leader of shea islam who was imprisoned in a military base for the rest of his life.(Saeed.Veradi (talk) 16:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asker vs. Askar 

message: The name he uses for his papers and books is Lotfi A. Zadeh, and he is best known with this name and this should be the title of this page. Alefbe (talk) 21:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to [[Lotfi A. Zadeh]]

message: I wonder why some try to remove the part with his nationality and ethnicity and especially trying to say that he is not an Azeri but persian. Unfortunately this happens in many articles in wikipedia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.158.194.152 (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: But the proofs say it is Vise Versa. So go to Azeri wiki to see it. For more information you can read Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan to find out which side is racist. And try to do not troll talkpages and bring excuses. It can considered as "escaping to the front" and "defending racism by using it against itself". The Stray Dog Talk Page 15:07, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Again Racism 

message: Because it is a continued bone of contention, I have removed these entries entirely from the infobox.  Please do not add nationality or ethnicity information to the infobox without a supporting citation from a reliable source.  That includes adding "United States" to nationality -- even though I assume he has Americna citizenship, I don't know that for certain, and there is no source cited one way or the other.  The information in the article itself seems admirably straightforward in its description of his background, but to add any ethnicity, we ought to have something that says what Zadeh himself considers it to be. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:16, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: BMK, before you revert anything, please read the changes carefully and note the sources cited. I am also for making the article as easy and noncontroversial as possible, and did not add anything new on citizenship or anything else. For all intents and purposes. Prof. Zadeh is an American scientist and lived in USA more than in both Azerbaijan and Iran combined (about 22 years total in both, vs. almost 70 years in USA). --Saygi1 (talk) 00:19, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources you provided do not support the contention you have made, or are used in a way that goes against WP:WEIGHT.  This is not a consensus matter, article text must accurately reflect what a source says, regarding of a (hypothetical) consensus which says otherwise. Also, this article is a WP:BLP, and the rules about sourcing are much stricter.I draw your attention to this discussion I have initiated on WP:ECCN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: BMK, could you be more specific about what "contentions" are "not supported" by the reliable sources I cited? I don't like going in circles, and am tired of this "let's exclude all sources/edits from you, as I own this article and only I and my friends can make changes there" attitude. --Saygi1 (talk) 21:22, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been very specific in the discussion on ECCN.  As for your other remarks, which could be considered to be uncivil since they are not supported by evidence, you are making assumptions which are not true. I am not "friends" with other contributors to this article, I don't know most of them at all, and the last time I recall interacting with User:John we strongly disagreed with each other.  I also don't remove edits by you because they are by you: let me point you to this, in which I realized that another editor has accidentally removed a good contribution you made to the article, so I restored it.  On the other hand, anyone who makes unsupported contributions to the article which distort or misstate facts about the subject will have those edits removed, that's the entire point of having watchlists, and that's the reason we have WP:BLPREMOVE. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:25, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

text: In the comment at this page , Beyond My Ken very clearly and vividly displays his poor judgement at the very least, and at worst, bias and bad faith, doing not just a very selective short quoting, but suppressing some key words (indeed, sentences!) from Prof. Lotfi Asker Zadeh's speech. Please compare his transcript to this transcript I've prepared starting from minute 1:41 of this video : "But I must say that what influenced me more than perhaps anything else, were the 10 years, the first 10 years of my life in Baku. I was there at the time when there was very strong ideological influence everywhere. But one thing which had an impact on me was the fact that in school, what we were taught, was not material things, not trying to make money, not buy XYZ, but have some dedication to society, to culture, to science." As you can see, watch and hear, Prof. Zadeh's clearly states that his years in Azerbaijan were most important to him in his life as both a human being and a scientist. And it's a violation of WP:WEIGHT and a host of other rules to suppress that kind of valuable and important information from his biography. --Saygi1 (talk) 22:54, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be a lot better if you didn't go around posting the exact same post in three places.  A thread has been opened on ECCN, which I linked above, and will link again here, in which I've responded to you.  Also, there's no reason to bold large portions of your messages, you don't become more correct because your typeface is darker. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:12, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Please support your charge of "canvassing" with diffs. Thanks.  Your other charges are patently ridiculous on the face.  Either you are being disingenuous, or you do not understand these polices. Please stop. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I think I have contributed to the unnecessary dispersion of this discussion in the way that I have responded to your comments.  From here on in, I will respond on the ECCN thread only to issues concerning the content dispute between us, but will not respond in any way to behaviorial complaints. On the other hand, on WP:ANI I will only respond to issues of behavior.  Cross-references between discussions should be sufficient.  And on the third hand, there really is not much point in continuing the conversation at all, since you have not brought in any new evidence, continue to make the same content points repeatedly, and have escalted to edit warring and unwarranted behavioral charges.  So... I'm going to make dinner for my family, and attempt to lay out of this discussion until something substantive is offered. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: About potential canvassing - I've responded to you here . About your other points - I've kindly and very clearly asked you to clearly show me what rules am I supposedly violating? Because I've clearly described that you are violating multiple rules and provided diffs to show how you removed verifiable and reliable sourced content from the article. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationality and Ethnicity in infobox

message: There is no need to mention his mother's religion. Moreover his father was Muslim. So, at first there is not any citable reference about the religion of Lotfi Zadeh! Second, his religion is not related to his father or mother, and if relate, why mother? and why not father?
I believe, there is no need to mention his religion.
Unfortunately according to this mistake information, we can see a classification of Jewish scientists Jewish scientists with name of Lotfi Zadeh!?
Also the reference 4 is not good endorsement and it is only a website that it may publish mistake facts.
see
:Get a source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:35, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is credible. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is no need to mention his mother's religion 

message: Hi. Could someone tell me why all these "Azerbaijani scientists/Azerbaijani X" categories are added here, when so far no source has been presented that attests that he supposedly held Soviet Azerbaijani citizenship? Both of his parents were simply Iranian citizens living in the Azerbaijan SSR for some time, and this is sourced. Just the fact that he (Lotfi A. Zadeh) was born there in the SU and lived there for a few years doesn't mean that he actually held its citizenship. Such people are what we usually call expats, and unless someone can prove that he held Soviet citizenship, these categories are all unfortunately erroneous. Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 18:29, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello, Louis! That's what I'm saying below. Azerbaijanization of an Iranian scientist, just because he was born in Baku?? Ok, But that baku wasn't Azerbaijan Republic, that was Soviet Union and his parents were reporters there. The situation is like Babak Khoramdin, Nizami Ganjavi, Median Empire, Zoroaster and  plenty of other articles which Azarbaijanized in Azerbaijani or possibly English wiki. We must investigate it in Meta-Wiki by reviewing all articles related to Iran. Meanwhile the source which mentioned the Azeri name is citing an Azerbaijan Republic's government's site, it seems it couldn't be neutral. Blessings! The Stray Dog Talk Page 14:27, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories/translation in the lede 

message: Lotfi Aliaskar Zade is not an Azerbaijani, and the place of birth is not nationality. even Azerbaijan Republic didn't exist at that time. So Iranian-Azeris do not use Latin script of Azerbaijan republic as their writing system, but Persian and sometimes English. Also at that time his parents were for reporting and their job. his mother was a Russian and his father an Iranian (Iranian-Azeri). for Iranian Azeris we only add the Persian name, in common situation, because the spelling and meaning is Persian, Such as Rambod Javan and Ali Daei or Ali Javan, Jafar Panahi, Ali Khamenei, Googoosh and etc. their names are completely Persian but ethnicity is not. We must only add the Persian or a Persian spelling near by the ethnic spelling. about Iranian Azeris and all Iranian people we must add Persian too. for example Al Pacino and Leonardo DiCaprio are Italian-Americans. if we add the ethnic spelling, we add the national language (Am English) spelling too. 
but his name, in this case is like Ali Daei and Rambod Javan, and the situation is like that. his name is not Turkic at all, but completely Persian.
the origin of "Zade" (son of..son of lotfi) which is a Persian word, not Turkic/Azeri comes from "Zayesh", a Persian word which means "birth". Persian name needs Persian spelling . Also it is not common to add only  ethnic spelling without common Persian spelling for Iranians. 
Also the word "Lotfi" is a combination of Arabic word and Persian suffix which make a Perso-Arabic word with a Persian meaning and spelling. the letter "i" which appears in the word Bahai makes a different meaning with Arabic word, a different spelling too. not Turkic and not Arabic spelling I mean.
Hereby, I TheStrayDog add an expert user on Iran Wikiproject  and also an expert Iranian languages' linguist Mr. Hamid Hassani () to discuss here and resolve this problem permanently. thank you. The Stray Dog Talk Page 23:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the "problem" was permanently resolved until you showed up to upset the apple cart. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello dear User Beyond My Ken, I am so glad for having you here in this discussion. That's your opinion? OK I respect your comment. but I appreciate you If you let us hear other comments please. that will be nice of you dear fellow. I said Lotfi A Zade isn't an Azeri name and it is a Persian name. so I proved it with my evidence, but let other users come here to challenge my Idea. thanks. The Stray Dog Talk Page 20:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You've "proved" nothing -- you've made some claims, that's all, and those claims seem to be animated not by a thirst for factuality, but by ethnic bias. If your suggestion to "hear other comments" means that I should shut up -- sorry, that ain't gonna happen.  Other editors are perfectly free to comment here, my contributions to the discussion do nothing to stop them from doing so. (And, BTW, drop the condescension, please, it neither deters me nor reflects well on yourself.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  hello again, thank you for your contribution in this talk. this is a proof which says that he is an Iranian descent not Azerbaijani (Azer Repub). I said to you that EVEN AZERBAIJAN REPUBLIC DIDN'T EXIST AT THE TIME OF BIRTH OF ZADEH BUT SOVIET UNION.  so his mother is a Russian so if when we are adding the spelling of his birthplace language, we must add Russian spelling too, mustn't we????? The national language of Iran is Persian and for the all Iranian Azerbaijanis we add the national language's spelling here in Wikipedia, which I brought examples too you. I said that DiCaprio's ethnicity is Italian but we don't add Italian spelling on the lead in his articles, only English, which is the national language of America. Even if his name is not of Persian language, but we know it is, we must add Persian spelling. thanks.The Stray Dog Talk Page 13:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:   Also as a response to your charges against me, I must say I'm a member of Iran wiki project, and it's my duty to edit and discuss in this kinda topic. so Im not in that kinda position to be racist or in an Ethnic War. Im proving based on Lotfi A. Zadeh's words, but you don't wanna see. you think im in a ethnic war but you are so wrong . Im just in the Iran project so im an Iranian and it's a common obsession among Iranians when they see some foreigners are trying to steal Iranian cultural realities such we see like Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan or Campaign on showing Babak Khoramdin as a National hero of Azerbaijan republic (here)  or etc. I'm here to defend facts not my race. but you think it is race. just turn your head to Azerbaijani Wikipedia and you will see where is exactly a tedency of reciism which related to Pan-Turkism propaganda. look at this . Azeri wikipedians are trying to show Median people which were Indo-Iranian people as a Turkic tribe :))) . im not racist just turn your head fellow. be honest and wise. we are not on that kinda position to be racist, because we are victims of racist actions such as Pan-Turkism and pan-arabism and Iranophobia . we dont call on saying Persian sea for Arabian sea, or Sea of Iran for Sea of Oman. but there is a Racist tendency to say Arabian gulf instead of historical name Persian gulf (look at this: Persian Gulf naming dispute). So we are victims and victims have rights to defend themselves based on the facts. The Stray Dog Talk Page 14:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Investigation about the name

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: An Iranian government source is not a WP:RS. Please remove the last edit by Dorglorg until a reliable source confirms his death, it is a clear violation of BLP if not confirmed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:19, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Already done as far as I can tell. Please see below. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 00:22, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  My comment is below. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:32, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leaving his death in the article without being confirmed by a reliable source is a BLP violation 

message: I have protected this article for 2 days due to extendedconfirmed editors warring over reports of Zadeh's death. I haven't had time just yet to research the situation myself so I did not edit the article, but administrator  has removed information about his supposed death. User  has concerns over the reliability of the source(s?) reporting his death. Please discuss here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 00:20, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: At this point, all the sources reporting Zadeh's death are Iranian, and are repeating an Iranian government-related source, they are not independent news sources, and can not be considered to be reliable sources.  I've been questioned as to if I have some personal reason to not believe that he's dead, and the answer is "No."  I have no personal connection to Zadeh, except for an admiration for his seminal work on fuzzy sets and fuzzy logic. If he's dead, then he's dead, and the article absolutely should report that -- and it's not completely unlikely to be true, since he is, after all 96 years old -- but only if the source reporting it is of the absolutely best reliability: a major US newspaper, or the Times of London, Reuters, the AP, or the BBC, one of the major American news outlets, even UC Berkeley, for instance.  Some place trusted, not an Iranian government source. That's the only issue here, as far as I'm concerned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: (You realize that both the links you posted are the same?) Note that the article does not give a date of death, or a cause of death, or really say anything except that he died in San Francisco. A real report would have at least the information that the cause of death was not available, or pending autopsy, or was not released by the family, or whatever.  What you've got there is basically the Wikipedia article with "He died" slapped onto it.  That's not the hallmark of a reliable news source. I keep checking Google News, The New York Times and the San Francisco Chronicle, and... nothing.  Once a reliable news source confirms that he has died, I'll withdraw any objection I have to adding the information to the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Just updating: still no source not ultimately based on an Iranian source. Checked: Google News, SFGate, NY Times, Reuters. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:11, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also e-mailed Zadeh's address as listed on his UC Berkeley page, as well as those of his assistant and his researcher, asking for any information they might have.  I don't think it would qualify as a reliable source, because any e-mail they send in return can't be verified, but it would help to clear up the question of whether he has indeed died or not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also contacted Google asking them to remove the death date from their summary box until the death can be confirmed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

text: - Is this a RS for his death? I've seen the issues raised via ITN. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:01, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No, see below, I've answered there. PressTV is an Iranian news agency, and the only sources reporting his death at this time are either Iranian, or are carrying stories derived from the original Irananian story.  They all take the Wikipedia article and slap "He's dead" on it and shove it out there. I'll believe it when I see a righteously reliable source report it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:01, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct. I am not praising what they have done, but it was also they who revised their appraisal of the situation when more accurate information filtered through. Anyhow I am not implying that someone able to edit the article re-insert that he passed away and I will not be making that change myself once the protection ends. --Coldtrack (talk) 05:03, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Health status: editing dispute 12 August 2017 

message: Which one of the used references says his father was an Iranian Azerbaijani? Could you guys shows me that source? How could a Russian Jewish woman married a Muslim?! Did his mother convert to Islam? --188.158.107.90 (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Even in the strictest religious communities, a Muslim man is permitted to marry a Christian or Jewish woman. Azeris are hardly known as the strictest of Muslims anyway, so this is not strange. Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 06:06, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but where is the source that says "an Iranian Azerbaijani father..."? I didn't find it in source #17 and #18 which used at the end of that sentence. --188.158.107.90 (talk) 06:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: To be clear: you purchased the article at note 17, not simply read the abstract, right? Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:16, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity of his father 

message: Zadeh died on August 12 in San Francisco, CA. BBCLCD (talk) 13:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Primefac (talk) 13:57, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

text: PressTV is not a reliable source. It is an Iranian source that is merely passing on the Iranian government-based press report.  Still no independent reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry but that is pathetic. When did Press TV ever announce the death of a person who today is alive.... --Coldtrack (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: "Pathetic"?  If he's actually dead, why has no other news source, except Iranian ones, picked up on the story? Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:30, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: "Tehran University withdraws report on death of researcher" . Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant pathetic in the sense of Press TV not being reliable. Suddenly they become credible once announcing that the original report was made in error. I don't see much coverage on this individual outside of Iran anyhow. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, PressTV is not a reliable source (you should read WP:RS and see what the requirements are) because it simply repeats what someone else has reported without investigating it and confirming it themselves. They look like a news outlet, but it's only a centimeter deep.  When they repeated the Tehran University report, they said Zadeh was dead, without any confirmation of the underlying fact.  That makes them, and their reports, unreliable.  When they reported that Tehran University has withdrawn the report, they presumably had a press release from them in hand, so it didn't really require additional confirmation.  If you want to believe that PressTV is a reliable source, that's your privilege, as long as you don't attempt to use them as an RS on Wikipedia, 'cause they ain't. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: By that definition then no news network is a reliable source since all of them act as mouthpieces for one form of government or another. The fact is we know how BBC or ABC "investigations" can be manipulated and where it has mattered, one has yet to see them take radically opposing views from their masters. At the same time, I don't know what on earth would mean that a statement were incorrect or untrustworthy if its source happens to be the Iranian government except if parroting the usual western propaganda. Apart from that, the idea that one network/newspaper (e.g. The Independent) is reliable but something else isn't is pure conjecture. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

text: I note also that Press TV is the same as every other Iranian news network in its message and manner of operation and yet Farsi Wikipedia seems to have no issue in using those equivalents. Obviously Press TV being for an English speaking audience probably won't be used but all Farsi networks are. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:27, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Farsi Wikipedia's standards are their business, not ours.  Our standards are our business, and by those standards, PressTV is not a reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:32, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh so it's your standard that denounces Press TV as unreliable. Now I've heard it all. You'd think that "reliable" would mean precisely what the definition is. Wikipedia operates the same everywhere and I have also edited Russian and Ukrainian. True, sources need to be reliable, but the idea that it is reliable for one language and not for another is frankly absurd and blatantly a tool to suppress information by the "project" that claims it is not reliable. So to you, "reliable source" specifically means what you like. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, this discussion is ridiculous.  As I've said repeatedly, a reliable source is a source that fulfills the requirements of WP:RS. Bottom line, period, end all, 30. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well obviously yes, you have indeed introduced ridicule by stating that a source can be reliable for one language's project but not another's. The question here is whether reliability is down to principle or personal opinion. Naturally if there is some principle behind it then it couldn't be the case that it is used on other languages' Wikipedia. But of course if it is down to your personal opinion then you cannot expect every editor to agree with your point of view. Now unless someone shows me conclusive evidence that Press TV has reported something false (and I don't mean whimpering from mainstream sources that it is Iranian government funded) then I am inclined to accept that Press TV is 100% reliable, and have no objections to its usage to support assertions across the project. Bottom line, period. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You clearly do not understand that each language Wikipedia is a separate entity, and each community sets its own rules and standards.  The Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) sets certain basic policies, but otherwise allows every project to devise their own standards.  So, yes, it is very much the case that what can be considered to be a reliable source for Farsi Wikipedia may not be considered to be one for English Wikipedia, or French Wikipedia, or German Wikipedia.  That's the way it works.  If you don't like that, you can either convince the WMF to remove from each Wikipedia's purview the setting of editing standards and have them all set by Foundation decree, or you can run for King of Wikipedia and set them all yourself.  If you don't believe that is the way things work, then you're just plain out of luck, because that is, in fact, the way they work, and anyone who's been around enough and has been paying attention will tell you so. In any case, this discussion is pretty much over isn't it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:08, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It was over when you stated in fewer words that reliability is less to do with conclusive principle and more to do with personal opinion, albeit a collective opinion. And somehow we find ourselves accepting a Press TV source that confirms that this subject is a living person. The so-called "standards" on what qualifies as reliable are frankly speaking one big joke - we can use western mainstream media but any alternative media including all from nations deemed to be enemies cannot be used. It seems this is a big farce to uphold a stealth bias. I stand by my position that if Press TV substantiates an assertion I make, I shall go ahead and use it. I'll throw the ball in the opponent's court and then see if he has any "concrete proof" that the statement is unreliable. Right now I see press TV announcing this person as living and if someone believes Press TV is unreliable, they can go and find a mainstream source to say he is dead. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:17, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm. Well, as my teenage son says: "Yeah, whatever, dude." Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:29, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Grow up. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:32, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 13 August 2017 

message: In the categories, replace "2017 deaths" with "Living people" until a reliable source can be found. This is most likely collateral damage from the protection Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Primefac (talk) 15:02, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 13 August 2017 

message: Lotfi A. Zadeh died on August 12, 2017.http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/08/12/531553/iran-lofti-zadeh-fuzzy-logic Disha shur (talk) 19:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, PressTV is not a reliable source, it's one of the Iranian news agencies repeating a story from an Iranian government-related source.  Confirmation of a person;s death requires a source which is exemplary. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. As stated above, PressTV is not a reliable source for this report. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 13 August 2017 

message: Per WP:EGG, can the link to "the Shah" be changed to "Reza Shah". Shah was a title, and we would not say the American leader was "the President". In addition, the word "Shah" in and of itself has become associated in the English language with the last emperor, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Primefac (talk) 15:04, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 14 August 2017 

message: .  This is why PressTV is not a reliable source,  They sinoply repeated the Tehran University report without checking it for themselves, as did all the other Iranian and Azerbaijaini outlets and sites.  This is why we require that a reliable source verify a death before we report it. It's still possible that Zadeh may have died, but we wait for confirmation from a trusted source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:30, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a reliable source, because it cannot be publicly verified, but I hope this will help: I have just received a response to my e-mail query from Zadeh's research assistant listed on his UC Berkeley page, Lesley Goldstein.  She writes: Professor Zadeh is alive and well. I thanked her for responding. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:50, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Beyond My Ken, for your efforts in ensuring that our article remained accurate and WP:BLP compliant throughout all this. We had two nominations of Lofti Zadeh at Recent Deaths; fortunately they were both closed quickly.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:16, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  Wikipedia is a big place, and I wasn't even aware of Recent Deaths - but then I tend to stay away from ITN and other Main Page sections. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:31, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Tehran University withdraws report on death of researcher" 

message: I was also wondering about the truth content of the news from the following sources:
http://en.azvision.az/news/70497/azerbaijani-scientist,-father-of-fuzzy-logic-lotfi-zadeh-passes-away-.html
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/08/12/531553/iran-lofti-zadeh-fuzzy-logic Zimboras (talk) 20:21, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:52, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Both of those are ultimately passed through intermediary reports on the University of Tehran report, which has now been retracted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:59, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 14 August 2017 

message: Thanks for the protection.
The last edit before protection, by 5.197.118.181, changed the wording of a direct quote, from "Russia" to "Soviet Union".  This needs to ne changed back. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:04, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Primefac (talk) 12:06, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 7 September 2017 

message: Oh, come on. His official Facebook page, which firmly denied his death in August, has already announced plans for burial and the news were reported on it 8 hours ago! If no Western newspaper/agency is interested in it does not mean he's alive; this time it is clear he is really dead. --Folengo (talk) 14:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Fuzzy indeed.Facebook is not a reliable source.  The only news reports I can find are from Azerbaijan or based on those reports. Given the erroneous reports last month -- from Iranian sources repeated by the same Azerbaijani outlets that are now reporting his death, again -- there's no reason to be hasty, and every reason to wait for an official release or a reliable press report.  After all, we're WP:NOTNEWS, we're an encyclopedia, and we're not trying to get a scoop.  It's more important for us to get it right than it is for us to get it fast. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I agree. I only wonder if some reliable Western source will pick it, because it appears it's really true. Unfortunately scientist appear to get few obits (see Nicolaas Bloembergen or Hans Georg Dehmelt) and I hope we won't have to wait weeks for a confirmation.--Folengo (talk) 14:45, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I hope they do as well. I've been monitoring UC Berkeley's News page, but I've noticed that it often takes them weeks to post faculty deaths. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If I understood the language, I would take a look at local newsoutlets. Funeral arrangements - while not usable as GNG - are usually a good indication of someones death. Agathoclea (talk) 15:34, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, the Azerbaijan news outlets have not been terribly reliable (or the Iranian ones).  I was actually just heading to the Facebook page to check the funeral arrangements and then see if that leads to anything. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:39, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: That would lead to an APA report speaking of the body being moved as told by Professor of Azerbaijan Technical University Shahnaz Shahbazova. So at least this would be original reporting and not copied from somewhere else. Agathoclea (talk) 15:48, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Seems reasonable. Protection removed. Primefac (talk) 16:45, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Please see the discussion just above this.  We're waiting for confirmation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:31, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: I'm not buying it. If he died in the U.S., why are there no English-language sources? He is a very well known person. I want to see something from the New York Times, BBC, or UC Berkeley. A news search still turns up nothing adequate in quality, and we've seen false rumors before. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:29, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is an English-language source, which refers to the Azerbaijani Consulate's Facebook post as its source for the report. I'm unsure of the reliability of this source (not saying it's not reliable, I just don't know). Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:36, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies for jumping the gun on this one, I've re-added protection again until a firm consensus about the reliability of all these sources can be determined. Primefac (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: That's not a U.S. source. He allegedly died in Berkeley. Why do we see nothing in well-recognized U.S. reliable sources? Why do we have nothing from UC Berkeley? He is very well known. We have seen false reports before. Maybe it's true, but I think we should be very conservative on this. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:42, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I'm just pointing out what I found, and you didn't specify U.S. source, just English. If I find anything more definitive I'll post it here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:45, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Here is another report, referring to the Facebook post but also apparently confirmed by a professor at Azerbaijani Technical University. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:48, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: This is the Facebook post. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:50, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually came back to edit my comment to change "English-language" to "U.S. based", but I was too slow – there was already a reply. Just as a reminder, we're talking about someone who has lived in the U.S. since 1943 and has been at UC Berkeley since 1959 and allegedly died in Berkeley. I want to see something in a very well respected very reliable U.S.-based source. UC Berkeley or IEEE if not a very high quality newspaper or magazine. Facebook is crap. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Will it help if I say "I agree" a bunch more times? ;) Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I got a little worked up. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: The president of the country that Prof. Zadeh has lived in for the last 74 years is Donald Trump. As far as I know, President Trump hasn't said anything about Zadeh's death, and neither has the president of the university where Zadeh has been a professor for 58 years. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:23, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: That's ABC Spain, not ABC U.S. How is it that people in Spain seem to know something that people where Zadeh has lived for the last 74 years do not know? Facebook is crap. There have been clearly false reports of his death before. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Lotfi Zadeh's body to be brought to Baku. "Lotfi Zadeh's body will be brought to Azerbaijan in 10 days. I was with Lotfi Zadeh until the very end. His son Norman was not with his father at the time of his death. 
“Lotfi Zadeh’s body was placed in the morgue today at 11:00 am California time. The necessary procedure for the delivery of his body to Azerbaijan will take 7-19 days,” said Shahbazova. According to her, Lotfi Zadeh’s body is expected to be brought to Azerbaijan on September 16-17.
Oddly specific details. Also when has whether or not the country he lived in publishes anything about it been the deciding factor if the news is true or not? The first news of Michael Cimino's Death were from French outlets and he died in LA. It's nonsensical to downplay family friends words in reliable sources just because it's not a US source. Rusted AutoParts 19:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: * It's not a reliable source per se, but I reached out to Zadeh's research assistant -- who was the one who told me last time that Dr. Zadeh was still alive -- and she confirms that he died yesterday morning (September 6, 2017) at 7:30am, I assume PDT. I agree that the protection should be lifted, the date of death put into the article, and when a reliable source (Reuters, BBC, CNN, SF Chronicle, NY Times, LA Times, UC Berkeley, WaPo, etc.) confirms it, add that source to the article as a reference. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:06, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Oh, actually it's only semi-d, so if someone hasn't already done so, I'll put it in. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:08, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Primefac (talk) 20:11, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, lift the protection and make it editable by verified users. This must come to an end. --Folengo (talk) 20:15, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

text: Thanks, that's the official confirmation that we needed.  I've added it to the article as a ref. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  New report of death 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Owing to Dr. Zadeh's unfortunate death, as he never mentioned any denouncement over his Iranian citizenship or nationality, I added his nationality as "Iranian-American" based on Iranian law of citizenship (here). Per many discussions (above) in this talk-page, there was found no evidence that he denounced his Iranian passport. Based on Iranian law who his father and/or mother is Iranian is automatically and unconditionally Iranian either. He was brought up in Iran and educated at Iranian University of Tehran. Thereafter he left Iran in Pahlavi era (Imperial Iran) for America. Also as we know the passport law of Imperial Gov. of Iran never let citizens leave the country without Iranian passport. Please do not change this edit unless you bring any kind of reference against he was not Iranian. Thanks. The Stray Dog Talk Page  23:05, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to read the archives, in which this subject is extensively discussed.  You also need to read the article itself, which, as the hidden note says, deals with the question of his natiopnality in Zadeh's own words.  Please do not edit against consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:27, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Salute! My dear fellow. Thanks for your contributions here. Please Don't tell me do what I did before and don't take me wrong. In this this discussion, that you constantly mentioned to me about it (as if I am not aware of it at all!!!) I have been involved myself too. Please you yourself, re-read the discussion above. You will see my appearance and justifications. I read both Persian and English editions for several times. I undid your edit. My rationale is clear. Sources and laws shows that he is an Iranian-American and you please read Iranian-Americans article to find out its complicated legal meaning. In my own thought, some of those discussions are meaning-less somehow because some Azerbaijani users tried to make push Zadeh an Azerbajani scientist. But this an encyclopedia and not a propaganda machine of pan-Turkist Azerbaijani government which even wants to make other Iranian stuff Turkic/Azerbaijani (e.g. look at Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan). Don't be confused please. This situation is a little bit confusing. I hope you may understand my words. Best Regards!. The Stray Dog Talk Page  21:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the talk page archives.  The aritlce, before you changed (and which I reverted back it) reflects consensus on this talk page.  Please read the archives and do not change again unless you get a new consensus to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:21, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Roger that! In this particular case, you are simply right. I'll try it in another way. If possible a new consensus will be needed to do that edit, as you said above. Happy editing! The Stray Dog Talk Page  20:08, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  adding Iranian nationality 

message: According to Persian and Azeri data (including epitaph on his tombstone), his first name was Lotfali. Therefore "Lotfali Aliasker Zadeh" seems to be rational as his birth name. محمد إسلامي 0711 (talk) 21:01, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: "Seems to be rational" won't cut it on Wikipedia, nor will anecdotal evidence.  We need a citation from a reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:43, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zadeh's birth name 

message: He's from Azerbaijan not İran 2A00:F41:1C2F:F472:491A:66BF:2D2B:6B34 (talk) 16:01, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This has already been extensively discussed (see above); furthermore, the article itself includes Zadeh's own thoughts on the subject of his nationality. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:16, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality 

message: Not Iranian-American, Azerbaijani-American. He was an Azerbaijani scientist as is obvious from the place of birth: Baku - the capital of Azerbaijan. 5.197.247.21 (talk) 16:15, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This has already been extensively discussed (see above); furthermore, the article itself includes Zadeh's own thoughts on the subject of his nationality. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:16, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Republic of Baku is Iran!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100E:BE1C:1D30:819E:A72D:DDE8:CF3B (talk) 04:20, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 30 November 2021 

message: The US was not involved in the invasion, which took place in the late summer 1941 and lasted into the fall. The US was a non-participant until Dec. 1941. I trust I don't need a cite for that?  (As for the invasion, it has a page.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C6:4300:6EE0:C57B:CDED:A88C:51DB (talk) 03:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  WWII Invasion of Iran