Talk:Baby talk

message: For the section "Foreigner talk" I'm not so sure if that is similar to Baby Talk, more so than Cave-man like talk. Usually people do not use high pitches nor do they use repeat single syllable words to refer to things like "boo-boo" when speaking to a foreigner (Usually because those may be culture specific vocabulary that other cultures may not understand). Some other things I noticed also were for the examples of Baby Talk. It might be a good idea to have examples from other languages as well, including phonetic reading, just to get a better idea of baby talk. For the sections "Phonology" and "Syntax", maybe some diagrams or trees would be helpful.
Jcjjfu52 (talk) 04:47, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Foreigner Baby-Talk?

message: This article should be titled more appropriately towards the linguistic terminology, such as Child Directed Speech or Infant Directed Speech.  The general description of the term “Baby Talk” is vague and unstructured concerning facts and content.  The “Purpose and Implications” section could use some organization within subcategories to break up the paragraphs to make it easier to navigate the different ideas.  Give less examples of “Baby Talk” in the “Vocabulary and Structure” section, maybe limit it to 10-15 examples.  
Contko (talk) 00:05, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: 2014

message: I think it's interesting how words such as "mother", "father", "dad" etc probably are derived from Baby Talk...
But that is likely(?) from babies, themselves, rather than their mothers. Maybe we could add something about that...
:Well, dad, and mom are from baby talk, but mother and father are not. JayW 19:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mom and dad are from baby speech, not baby talk. -Acjelen 03:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 2006

message: I was extremely disappointed to see that this article has (essentially) no information about the many societies that don't use CDL. I suppose I'll have to dredge through my bookshelf to get more, but here's a snippet from Language Development by Erika Hoff (Wadsworth, 2005, p. 117):
:Furthermore, in many cultures - including the cultures of the Samoans (Ochs, 1982; Schieffelin & Ochs, 1986), Papua New Guineans (Schieffelin, 1979, 1985), aboriginal groups in Australia (Bavin, 1992), Mayans in Mexico (Brown, 2001), and U.S. African Americans in the rural South (Heath, 1983) - adults simply do not address speech to prelinguistic infants. In these cultures, infants are loved, held, and cared for but not talked to, yet they learn to talk. The fact that language acquisition is universal whereas infant-directed speech may not be raises the question of how important the properties of infant-directed speech can be for language development...
The studies cited are:
* Ochs, E. (1982). Talking to children in Western Samoa. Language in Society, 11, 77-104.
* Schieffelin, B. B., & Ochs, E. (1986). Language socialization. Annual Review of Anthropology, 15, 163-191.
* Schieffelin, B. B. (1979). Getting it together: An ethnographic approach to the study of the development of communicative competence. In E. Ochs & B. B. Schieffelin (Eds.), Developmental Pragmatics (pp. 73-110). New York: Academic Press.
* Schieffelin, B. B. (1985). The acquisition of Kaluli. In D. I. Slobin (Ed.), The crosslinguistic study of language acquisition: Vol. 1. The data (pp. 525-594). Hillsdale, NJ: Erlbaum.
* Bavin, E. L. (1992). The acquisition of Warlpiri. In D. I. Slobin (Ed.), The crosslinguistic study of language acquisition: Vol. 3. (pp. 309-372). Hillsdale, NJ: Erlbaum.
* Brown, P. (2001). Learning to talk about motion: Up and DOWN in Tzeltal: is there a language-specific bias for verb learning? In M. Bowerman & S. Levinson (Eds.), Language acquisition and conceptual development. (pp. 512-543). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
* Heath, S. E. (1983). Ways with words. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
I guess I'll try and chase those down when I get a chance. This data should really be in here. It's appalling that it's not. 69.140.12.199 18:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, please be bold and add information about such research. It sounds fascinating. :-) Ruakh 06:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, go for it. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Or lack thereof? 

message: I recently removed a "Sex and the City" reference that involved the mention of "Titty Witties," feeling this was inappropriate and could be found offensive by someone who stumbles upon it unknowingly.  Just wanted to get peoples' opinions on this matter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.249.66.23 (talk) 00:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit - Agree? 

message: Retitling it "examples in literature" and using those for which a reference is clear (it not explicit). I don't see any indication here or in edit comments of why it was removed. It is useful in documenting the way baby talk is used in dialogue, and as indicating its cultural universality at least in the English-speaking world. It also shows how perfectly recognizable a 1917 example is to modern ears. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restoring "examples" section

message: The most recent editions appear to be more pronunciations than actual words... should they not be removed unless they can be found in actual dictionaries. Hesitant to do it myself though. 198.54.202.242 (talk) 11:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you.  I would say that a word isnt a baby talk word proper unless adults use it and it is the word itself that has a special meaning rather than just the tone of voice.  e.g. Adults do use /w/ for L and R in a humorous way among each other but I dont know if that really counts as baby talk because it isnt tied to any particular words.  If we can find people saying sowwy to their kids then it should stay ... but they dont, as far as I know.  <FONT COLOR="#800000"><B>Haplolology</B></FONT> Talk/Contributions 12:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the proposal was move to baby talk as the common name for the topic.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:36, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vocabulary 

message: We are working on updating this page for our college Psychology class, Psychology of Language.  As changes are made we will post them to this page for editing and feedback.  We look forward to expanding the depth of this topic on Wikipedia.  Ahartlin (talk) 13:49, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Update

message: I'm so sorry iof I deleted anyones comments, I thought you were supposed to delete it so you could add in your comment, I was completely unaware, I guess u can say i'm a newbe to wikipedia an im only doin it for a project. so sorry :(  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princesspaperieca (talk • contribs) 22:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No real problem, everything is easily repaired.  =)  I'm sorry I don't have an answer to your question.  You might want to try the Wikipedia:Reference desk.  Powers T 13:09, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: comments

message: The Wikipedia article on “Baby Talk” or “Infant Directed Speech” describes this practice as the use of high pitched speech with short words to communicate most often with children. In addition, the article outlines alternative names for this method of speech. Possible purposes of “baby talk” include that babies are more likely to respond to this method and prefer to listen to this type of speech. “Baby talk” also aids infants in their ability to learn words as they are usually in simplified forms as well as providing a base for infants to understand the fundamental attributes of language structure. Further, “baby talk” has been linked to the development of the ability of children to ask questions. This article includes a section regarding universality of “baby talk”. However, this particular section needs to be expanded and will be a major site of revision through this project. We hope to include a section on differences by region regarding this topic as well. The article highlights that “baby talk” is not solely used with infants and can be used in communication with foreign language, in a condescending manner, or with pets. This Wikipedia article also includes a list of vocabulary often used in “baby talk” which may need to be condensed. This does not allow the reader to understand the implications or structure of baby talk, rather simply provides a list of examples. We hope to expand this article to include additional specifics about the characteristics of “baby talk”, adding phonology and syntax sections to the vocabulary section, and, finally, add a section outlining the implications of “baby talk” in order to provide a more comprehensive view of effects. This may include, but is not limited to, how “baby talk” impacts word recognition, social preferences, and aids cognitive development.
Below is a list of sources that will be applicable to these updates:
Green, J. R., Nip, I. S. B., Wilson, E. M., Mefferd, A. S., & Yunusova, Y. (2010). Lip movement exaggerations during infant-directed speech. Journal of Speech, Language, and Hearing Research, 53(6), 1529-1542. doi:10.1044/1092-4388(2010/09-0005) 
Kaplan, P. S., Dungan, J. K., & Zinser, M. C. (2004). Infants of chronically depressed mothers learn in response to male, but not female, infant-directed speech. Developmental Psychology, 40(2), 140-148. doi:10.1037/0012-1649.40.2.140 
Kaplan, P. S., Jung, P. C., Ryther, J. S., & Zarlengo-Strouse, P. (1996). Infant-directed versus adult-directed speech as signals for faces. Developmental Psychology, 32(5), 880-891. doi:10.1037/0012-1649.32.5.880 
Liu, H., Tsao, F., & Kuhl, P. K. (2007). Acoustic analysis of lexical tone in mandarin infant-directed speech. Developmental Psychology, 43(4), 912-917. doi:10.1037/0012-1649.43.4.912 
McLeod, P. J. (1993). What studies of communication with infants ask us about psychology: Baby-talk and other speech registers. Canadian Psychology/Psychologie Canadienne, 34(3), 282-292. doi:10.1037/h0078828 
Schachner, A., & Hannon, E. E. (2011). Infant-directed speech drives social preferences in 5-month-old infants. Developmental Psychology, 47(1), 19-25. doi:10.1037/a0020740 
Singh, L., Morgan, J. L., & Best, C. T. (2002). Infants' listening preferences: Baby talk or happy talk? Infancy, 3(3), 365-394. doi:10.1207/S15327078IN0303_5 
Singh, L., Nestor, S., Parikh, C., & Yull, A. (2009). Influences of infant-directed speech on early word recognition. Infancy, 14(6), 654-666. doi:10.1080/15250000903263973 
Kfinsand (talk) 04:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update 

message: There was previous talk on this page about removing some of the vocabulary, as stated above, we are editing this page for our psychology class and have come to the consensus that the extensive vocabulary section is unnecessary and lacking references. We propose to remove this extensive list and replace it with a handful of referenced examples. Ahartlin (talk) 14:15, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible Edit/Delete

message: This was nominated with outstanding clean-up tags. Wikipedia articles needing clarification (October 2011), Articles with specifically marked weasel-worded phrases (March 2009, May 2010). These should be dealt with quickly or the article coul be quickfailed. AIRcorn (talk) 10:30, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  GAN Nomination 

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thread_title: Impact of recent student edits

message: Can we expand on why grown women will sometimes speak like this? like, the psychology behind it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bumblebritches57 (talk • contribs) 02:40, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women 

message: I am confused about the last sentence in the Aid to cognitive development section, which states that "Some feel that parents should refer to the child and others by their names only (no pronouns, e.g., he, I, or you), to avoid confusing infants who have yet to form an identity independent from their parents." 
Attempts to find any information related to this turned up mostly empty. The most relevant result I found was an editorial essay in a blog (here: ) which takes a clear idealogical stance in relation to issues of gender and social justice. 
In this instance I am unsure whether or not this statement should be removed, or just clarified in some way?
CeraWithaC (talk) 01:24, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: That sentence was deleted on 12 June 2016 – and rightly so!  yoyo (talk) 10:50, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment 

message: The section "Use with infants" concludes with the following unsourced statement:
"families with a lower-status might just have less time to spend focusing on interactions."
This is {dubious} at best, and I've so marked it for discussion here.  Although plausible, no evidence is given to support it.
To the contrary, I'm aware of some research of the last couple of decades that shows that some high-status parents, in particular doctors, have high levels of work-related stress that leads to them being more likely than average:
* to abuse alcohol and other drugs,
* to suffer marital and other adult relationship problems, and
* to be time-poor,
all of which means that such families "might just have less time to spend focusing on interactions" (with their infant – and other – children), to borrow a phrase.  This goes double for parents who are both in high-status occupations.
Your thoughts are welcome!  yoyo (talk) 10:41, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use with infants - dubious unsourced statement 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I think that a section on baby talk directed toward disabled and mentally-ill adults might be good to add. I don't have any research to post right now, but there are tons of stories of people who are physically and/or mentally disabled and people with mental illnesses receiving this kind of speech -- from doctors, teachers, strangers, family members, peers, you name it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.17.163.143 (talk) 05:08, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Disabled and Mentally-Ill as Recipients 

message: I'd already begun writing this before realizing the note near the head, "2014" (by former editor Contko), aligns with my thoughts. Credit where credit's due.
As a supposed article about a supposed scientific discipline that is supposedly well-documented, I find this article a disservice to linguistics in particular and WP in general. The entire page comes across as at best defensive, more generally hyperbolic: not only is there nothing bad about adults imposing pseudoinfantile speech upon helpless children, but it is repeatedly touted as though some sort of invaluable teaching aid, to a point near the border of "WP is not a textbook, WP is not a manual."
Here's a simple check: at roughly what age does this downtalking become a hindrance to the maturing of the parent/child relationship? I find nothing; indicatively, the word years appears nowhere in the article.
This article has apparently been revised multiple times by various student gaggles. Should further blow in here, a hint: learn how to attach proper citations to your claims. I'd have failed many freshman outright for that alone.
There are no cited counterpoint views, much less criticisms — something I would expect of ANY valid discipline. This alone seems to place the behavior more squarely in the realm of religious faith (or at least philosophy) than anywhere near grounded academic study. In doing brief research on the subject, I note that articles even hinting at babytalk being merely a neutral factor will excite wild and even vitriloic attack from commenters.
Based in part on that hysteria, I could perhaps make the case that babytalk is a valid slang or argot or maybe cant or perhaps even jargon of a self-perpetuating infantilizing subculture. However, amidst all the "science" I don't see a credible overarching argument presented to the effect that it is somehow "natural," as in "common to human beings across cultures."
I have anecdotal tales from elementary teachers of how students with questionable speech skills — e.g. speaking through pursed lips, clinging to "cute" words, consonant substitutions ("widdow" for "little"), mispronunciations ("topato" for "potato"), 
sing-song pitch extremes — had a mother who persisted in using that speech with them despite the kid being in second or third or even fourth grade. Imagine simple spelling tasks: how do you teach a child to "sound out" a word like potato when they've heard so constantly that it's pronounced "topato"?
Though the article takes pains to separate these tics from strict speech disorders, the fact (as teachers can attest) is that these must similarly be overcome if the child is to be taught properly. For instance, whether a particular example is clinical apraxia of speech or just an environmentally imposed affectation is immaterial in regards to end-effect -- either way, the kid is difficult to understand. That makes the kid special needs, needing more attention to ensure that the lessons are properly communicated and fully comprehended.
And overreach abounds, often with sentence constructions that suggest the author is putting up a nonsupporting source, betting nobody will notice, i.e.:
:And because it is slow, simple and easier to understand, research has proven that infants prefer CDS over normal speech.
The cited source does indeed find that infants (and apparently adults as well!!) focus better when presented with exaggerated prosody, but nowhere is the preceding clause validated. (This is a propoganda trick for which I cannot stand.) I believe it's been proven that opposite extremes from babytalk — speaking rapidly or monotonously or clipped or with an accent — are also attention-grabbing. Or consider the vapidity of
:Infant directed speech includes features of higher pitch, exaggerated pitch changes, elongated vowels and long pauses between phonemes. This is done in order to allow infants time to process the information being conveyed to them.
How precisely is it known that the kid WANTS that? Actually, a 2015 study (RIKEN: Andrew Martin et al.) bluntly says it's amazing the victom learns language at all —
:The fact that they are able to pick up sounds from input that is less clear than that used by adults with each other makes this accomplishment all the more remarkable.
On a reread, I note that "infant-directed speech" becomes equated to speaking directly to an infant. Therefore, as presented, it's not the raft of accreted infantilist nonsense, but the fact that the adult is willing to interact with the child in a focused manner that is important. In short, it's the interaction. Here's a few lines, edited:
:Due to the visual cues offered by caregivers, infants are more highly motivated to engage in communication. … research indicates that infants are not only attracted to the practice itself but to people who engage in directed speech. Through interaction, infants infer who is likely to be a positive and encouraging caregiver. When infants attempt to echo what they hear, and feel reechoed, their cognitive development thrives because they are being encouraged by adults who are invested in the development of the given infants.
Here's the original, overreach and arm-waving intact:
:Due to the visual cues used by caregivers in this method of communication, infants are more highly motivated to engage in communication. Because infants are willing to participate in this process, caregivers are able to make significant progress through the use of infant directed speech.
:It is often assumed that infants are interested in the properties of infant directed speech and play a passive role in this interaction. However, research indicates that infants are not only attracted to the practice itself but to people who engage in infant directed speech[citation needed]. Through this practice, infants are able to determine who positive and encouraging caregivers will be in their development. When infants use infant directed speech as a determinant of acceptable caregivers their cognitive development seems to thrive because they are being encouraged by adults who are invested in the development of the given infants.
Still no supporting citation, but much more credible on the face of it.
Though I have been told (more than once) to be bold with my editing, I will exercise restraint as I prune back the unfounded claims made in this article, hoping to eventually find some strong healthy limbs on which a thorough, balanced, objective article can grow. Weeb Dingle (talk) 03:10, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: On the basis of one statement (cited above: Infant directed speech includes features ... conveyed to them.), I have removed another: Contrary to popular belief, the intensity of speech, however, does not differ from that used in adult directed speech.[dubious – discuss]]. Neither claim cites a source, and both cannot cohabit without a really good explanation. Weeb Dingle (talk) 15:56, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

text: This article is about speech directed at babies. For speech-like sounds produced by babies, see babbling.
yet mention within is made of babies attempting to return the CDS presented to them. Now, is this CDS or is it "babbling"? Weeb Dingle (talk) 16:15, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

text: I've changed almost every instance of "infant directed speech" to "CDS," per the grounded assertion that this is the term preferred by professionals. I also not that literally ~75% of sentences (in some sections at least) contained at least one instance of "infant directed speech," suggesting either that the original writer has the attention span of a gnat and might forget what the article's about, or believes that WP readers do. Weeb Dingle (talk) 16:33, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  propagandistic 

message: I just completed a major rework of Characteristics. It appeared that people had simply crammed in a bunch of factoids, with no attempt to group them or eliminate repetition. These (for lack of a better term) contributors also appear unfamiliar with relevant academic work, for example body language and prosody. I have NOT sought credible sources for the claims made — if it were up to me, I'd simply eliminate ALL unfounded claims outright.
That, at least, gives me a paradigm for looking at the rest of the article. Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:48, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  overhaul begun 

message: > Infants are unable ....(1) When fathers ... are able ..., infants respond well... (2) This too can inhibit language and speech development. (3)
"This" in (3) seems to refer to the fact in (1). Maybe (2) was added later without fixing (3)? _Vi (talk) 07:59, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "This" may refer to the wrong thing in the "Children of depressed mothers" paragraph 

message: At the moment, "usually" appears eight times. Only once is a citation within spitting distance (and that offers questionable support).
People hate when I tag stuff like that, but usually can't be bothered to support the claims, so I might simply remove every instance as egregious OR/peacocking.
FWIW, usually gets 233,689 hits on Wikipedia. Like notable (360,925), any appearance ought to cause any credible editor to immediately ask "really?" and expect a well-documented reply.Weeb Dingle (talk) 15:49, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  articles that rely on "usually" are usually making stuff up 

message: Seeing as it's been more than a year, and this is hardly a neglected article (multiple editors adding claims and apparent citations), and citation needed tags remain abundant, I'm simply going to start pruning.Weeb Dingle (talk) 22:12, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  spring cleaning