Wikipedia talk:Proposed guideline for magic methods

message: As an example on how an article that follow established format might look.
First, I found two articles that looked like this (these are the complete original texts):
*Steve Fearson's Cig. Levitation: This trick consists of an invisible thread that the magician wraps around his body and sticks to himself with magicians wax. He then manipulates it to give the illusion that the cigarette is floating.
And another:
*Steve fearson's Area 51: This is performed exactly the same way as his cigarette levitation, except it adds the ending of the "ufo" flying off into the distance.
What is that supposed to be? There is absolutely nothing of value in neither of the articles. Okey, so thread can be used to animate stuff, but that was known long before Fearson, so why is this under separate headings, and not filed under the more general heading "Thread"? As it turns out, there are a valid reason to have both him and the first example (but not the second) in an encyclopedia - but that's nothing you would know from the examples above. Also, the author has put another title than the original on the piece, without explaining why. No clue on when it was created either.
And, there is not even an attempt to detail any historical lineage. Do the author of the article want us to believe that there are no precedents before Fearson?
What is needed is to change the title back to the original. Put a correct date on it's creation. Give a proper description of the effect (how it appear to a spectator). Put it in the right context, so it is possible to track its importance and historic lineage, and point out what the creator has added to the method's predecessors.
The second example adds nothing new, viewed in a historic perspective, so it should be merged with the first example.
Compare the examples above to this: Fearson's floating cigarette.
If anyone complains about a secret is revealed, it is quite easy to show that this description follow established pubishing ethics and the industry standard, and by that it should be easy to stifle any flame wars.
The only thing missing from the edited and corrected version is Steve Fearson's permission. I could ask him myself, but he would probably refuse to give permission just because it was me asking, since he despise me after a discussion at the Genii forum. I've got nothing but respect for Fearson as a creator, but I'm a bit ambivalent when it comes to his person. In any case, his work is worthy of a proper description, instead of the original articles. --TStone 23:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: An example

message: Yet another example on how it can look when following the established format:
The original text at Balducci levitation was:
The Balducci levitation is a simple magic trick, credited to Ed Balducci. It produces the illusion of a person briefly levitating a few inches above the ground. It is a popular illusion with magicians because it can be performed impromptu and without special equipment.
Magician David Blaine performs this trick. On television, his act, which features reactions of the audience, is intercut with shots of him levitating with hidden mechanical assistance. This allows him to appear to have both feet quite a few inches above the ground in certain shots, something impossible with the Balducci levitation. The controversy among magicians about Blaine's television specials focuses on this, as some consider it to violate one of the rules of the television performance of magic: that the at-home television audience sees exactly what a live audience would see.
The illusionist is simply standing on the tip-toe of the foot farthest from the audience. That foot is concealed from view of the audience by the foot nearest to the audience and by the illusionist's clothing. The effectiveness of this trick is dependent on restricting the audience's point-of-view and being aware of the body's angle with respect to the viewers.
And it had an external link to a magic-fan page that didn't add anything relevant.
Problems: It talked more about how Blaine uses the TV-medium than the illusion - something that should be on the Blaine page instead. No credits, dates or sources. No hints on why this illusion is important. Not formatted properly.
Compare the text above with: Balducci levitation --TStone 15:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another example 

message: Generally, Wiki policies are developed by writing the policy page as closely as possible to the desired final policy, then discussing changes to it on the discussion page.  Most of the current 'policy' page is discussion and arguments in support of having a policy, all of which should be on this discussion page, and deleted from the policy page. Write what you think the policy should be, on that page, and move everything else that isn't a necessary part of the policy here, where it can be discussed. Aumakua 17:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I just wanted some kind of input from at least 2-3 persons before doing any real work. I'll have it ready within 2 days. --TStone 18:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: My biggest concern with Wikipedia:WikiProject Magic is that Wikipedia is not a magic encyclopedia.  If any policy/guidelines are implemented I would hope that notability and importance are taken into consideration so that things don't become indiscriminate. (see my comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Magic#Notability) -- Krash 19:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points, and I agree. See my edits of Balducci levitation, in which I merged several pages of tiny derivative variations (mostly examples of Crass commercialism). I think that it is noticeable that I follow a system in my edits. Items that have a historical significance has its own page, and derivative work is merged to that page. I understand that you don't want this to become a magic encyclopedia. Me neither, because there are already better ones in existence. But (I hope) you don't want this to become yet another rip-off site, I guess. If people decide to put other people's creations here, against the creators' wishes - wouldn't it be better if it was made in agreement with established procedure for that kind of material? --TStone 23:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability 

message: The summary should read:There are no laws that protect magic secrets, but there are ethical rules guarding the process. The respected publishers of magic technical litterature around the world has formed an industry standard and praxis in how to deal with the ethical questions regarding the publication of magic methods. I suggest that Wikipedia adapt the same standards. Any mention of the law should clearly state that no law protects magic secrets. Ambivalence is threatening.--Muchosucko 22:32, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether something is a secret or not is irrelevant. The real issue has to do with a creator's right to have his name attached to his work. And just saying that there's no protection for realised expressions of art in this field can easily be interpreted as an encouragement to steal stuff. Since the law isn't applicable in any way in this field, it's either better to remove all references to it - or be very clear on the fact that taking a creator's work in this field is neither prohibited nor allowed by copyright --TStone 14:12, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid you simply misunderstand the law. I do not know how else to explain it to you. I'm sorry. --Muchosucko 22:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A good start explaining it to me is to point out where it says that the covert choreography within a magical creation should be treated differently than a realised expression within any other artistic field - or even where it mention this artistic field at all. Not defined by law means just that it is undefined, nothing else. By copyright, you are neither prohibited nor allowed to steal someone's creation within this artistic field. Do you find anything that is wrong in that sentence? Oh, the usage of the word "steal" doesn't refer to any legal terms, but to the ethical term that predates any legal terms, and refer to taking something from a person against his will.  But I'm not opposed to remove all references to copyright and patents altogether, as they are irrelevant in this context. --TStone 06:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The explainations are all given Talk:Out_of_This_World_(card_trick) and in legal code itself. I am not going to repeat my arguments only to have you not understand them, then repeat what you've said to me in the first place. I am very sorry. All I can say now is: If you cannot understand the law, at the very least, please do not make up legal mishmash pretending you know what you are talking about -- then enter it into a Wikipedia article or policy proposal. I don't want that to sound harsh, it's just that some things seem completely out of your scope of understanding, perhaps because you were misinformed or do not have a legal background. Continuing this discussion will only engender an identical, obtuse response, so this will be my last comment on this page. --Muchosucko 06:54, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen your input there, and you are using words that doesn't apply. Even if you use the words "red rose" a hundred times will not magically make it into a red rose, if it is a blue bicycle you are refering to. What you call "method of operation, principle..etc." would not be accepted as being "method of operation, principle..etc" by patent laws, therefore those words should not be used in the context of copyright either. Unless there is precedents that show that the words are allowed to have conflicting interpretations. --TStone 09:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: No Relevant Legal Basis

message: There has been a lot of talk about what is legal and what is ethical related to publicly publishing magic methods. For centuries the methods and gimmicks of tricks were closely guarded secrets and magicians made oaths not to reveal the secrets when they did choose to reveal the secret to another magician. Everything is different now. Magicians used to make their living performing magic, now many notable magicians make money selling their secrets. I personally think that if a magician makes a serious attempt to guard the methods and gimmicks of a trick, then the secrets should be treated as Intellectual Property; however, if the magicians choose to share them without discrimination, all bets are off. Once a trick leaves the closed circle of the magician's world, it shouldn't have the same protections as those kept in close confidence. It isn't a trade secret if anyone with $19.95 can buy something that explains it. If you read many of the books published in magic circles you would quickly discover that very little is new, almost every trick borrows for another trick in some way or another. I think publicly publishing this information does harm the world of magic in some way... but most of what I have seen has been available to the average joe in some published form at one time or another, so, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. --Gijones 23:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Choice of Tricks to Publish