Talk:Iberia (theme)

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved to Iberia, Byzantine Empire   — Amakuru (talk) 17:39, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Iberia (theme) →  – More WP:CONCISE and WP:CONSIST as "X of Iberia" is better description for the polity; e.g. Kingdom of Iberia, Principality of Iberia etc. An emperor /// Ave 05:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 6 August 2022 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: 
no consensus. This RM had almost as many proposed titles as it had participants, and none of the titles attracted a clear consensus. My analyses of the arguments around individual proposed titles are as follows:
*There seems to be general dissatisfaction with the current title, Iberia, Byzantine Empire. This dissatisfaction largely centers around two points. First, the title uses comma-separated disambiguation for a large subnational division, which contradicts the guideline at WP:PLACEDAB; second, the current title fails WP:CONSISTENT when compared to other themes of the Byzantine Empire. Meanwhile, support for "Iberia, Byzantine Empire" was largely procedural in nature, as some participants argued that it was too soon after the previous RM to open another one.
*Most discussion around the originally proposed title, Theme of Iberia, pertained to whether the title would be WP:ASTONISHing for readers. Multiple people stated that "Theme of Iberia" would call to mind theme music or a narrative theme for readers not versed in Byzantine history; however, it was also argued that the risk of confusion would not be significant enough to be factored into the decision-making process (with the guideline WP:NWFCTM being mentioned in support of this latter view). Finally, in addition to discussion of the "Theme of Iberia" title directly, I think the extent of support for alternate moves suggests a degree of implicit opposition to this title; "Theme of Iberia" was the original proposal, and while it attracted relatively little overt opposition, multiple active participants in the discussion declined to support it, even when discussing large groups of options.
*Iberia (theme) was another proposed title, which attained a handful of supporters over the course of the discussion. The main policy that was leveled in its support was WP:CONSISTENT, as participants noted that Iberia (theme) was consistent with the article titles for other Byzantine themes. However, as this proposed title does not include an explicit reference to the Byzantine Empire, the same WP:ASTONISH disputes from my previous bullet point apply here as well.
*As an alternative to "Iberia (theme)", Iberia (Byzantine theme) was proposed. This title attracted little enthusiastic support, but was mentioned by several people as an acceptable alternative to their first preference. The only objection to "Iberia (Byzantine theme)" was that it would be "too much of a mouthful", indicating that the objection was probably on WP:CONCISE grounds.
*The title Byzantine Iberia attracted support early in the discussion, but discussion of it mostly ceased after one user mentioned that it could lead to confusion with Spania. Interestingly, this was the only line of discussion where the Iberian Peninsula played a significant role; the peninsula was mentioned elsewhere in the RM, but was not otherwise treated as a dominant factor in users' decision-making processes.
*Other titles that came up in the discussion (Byzantine theme of Iberia; Iberia (Byzantine Empire); Administrative division of Iberia; Théma of Iberia) were either quickly rejected or minimally discussed.
To my eye, the titles that came closest to achieving consensus were Iberia (theme) and Iberia (Byzantine theme), but I didn't find that either of them quite made it over the threshold. Because of the lack of consensus and the general distaste for the current title, I think it could be productive to have an RFC-style discussion that explicitly pits several potential titles against each other from the beginning. This would help to increase the odds that participants provide their opinions on all potential titles, and will thus improve the chances of identifying a consensus. (non-admin closure)  ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 20:55, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: (Edit: After a brief discussion on my talk page, I've decided that, in the absence of consensus, it's best to keep the article at the stable title that it held before this recent sequence of two RMs. This move restores the title to Iberia (theme), but does not necessarily indicate a consensus for that title; rather, it reflects that – when taking both recent RMs into consideration together – there was not a consensus to move away from that title.) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 03:30, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

text: Iberia, Byzantine Empire →  – Again, per WP:CONCISE and WP:CONSIST, I still believe Theme of Iberia would be perfectly suiting name as "X of Iberia" is better description for the polity, but as it was rejected by the colleagues in previous move-request I am suggesting we offer better fitting name as the current name reads like a name of a little town in the middle of nowhere. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 01:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Greetings User:Bayonet-lightbulb! Article was named "Iberia (theme)" before moving and adding "Byzantine" will make it way too much of a mouthful. I understand the general confusion with the peninsula but the polity of a theme was neither established there, nor was anything named "Theme of Iberia" there. How about Byzantine Iberia? Again, the peninsula should not determine the name as the Byzantium was very far east from it and didn't rule the area. Would you support moving it to "Theme of Iberia"? Because, certainly that is my #1 option for consistency of names for polities. An emperor /// Ave 03:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I like "Byzantine Iberia", sure. Patterns with Sasanian Iberia too which is a positive. Bayonet-lightbulb (talk) 03:12, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your feedback! "Theme of Iberia" and/or "Byzantine Iberia" has my full support. Let's see what other colleagues will have to say. Hopefully we will all arrive to the best fitting name for this polity. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 03:23, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Greetings User:Walrasiad! Yes, thank you for your feedback. I feel that "Theme of Iberia" is the best option. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 13:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear colleagues User:Bayonet-lightbulb and User:Walrasiad, do we all agree on "Theme of Iberia"? If so, I'll change the suggusted move to "Theme of Iberia" and we can vote. I support "Theme of Iberia". Please confirm your votes or any feedback that we can reach consensus. Thank you! An emperor /// Ave 02:10, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Thank you Srnec for your feedback and vote. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 01:32, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Greetings User:Amakuru. Thank you for voting. An emperor /// Ave 23:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

text: even though there are many themes, like theme (computing), when someone says "theme", it's either Theme (narrative), and theme music. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

text: update I now support to "Iberia (theme)", per the discussion below. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:34, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Greetings User:usernamekiran. Thanks for voting. "administrative division of Iberia" won't work as the article is about Byzantine theme. An emperor /// Ave 23:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi. How about "théma of Iberia"? —usernamekiran (talk) 03:29, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: User:usernamekiran Is "théma" used in English language? An emperor /// Ave 13:08, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

text: WP:NWFCTM. You'd have to be big into film music for "Theme of Exodus" to bring to mind the musical theme of the 1960 film Exodus. Srnec (talk) 15:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, thema is not English, but I was brainstorming. I am not adamant that we should stay on the current title, but I am firm that proposed title has element of WP:SURPRISE for a common reader. When we hear "theme of XYZ" then first thing comes to mind is theme as in "Themes of The Lord of the Rings", or Themes in Italian Renaissance painting, then there are musical themes like Theme from Mission: Impossible, or Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (soundtrack)#Track listing's "Is she with you?" which is now commonly known as "Wonder Woman Theme". I am okay with Iberia (Byzantine theme) as proposed by user:Bayonet-lightbulb above, and Byzantine Iberia as well. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:08, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon reviewing :Category:Themes of the Byzantine Empire, I now think the original title should be restored for consistency: "Iberia (theme)". In any case, "theme" is the word used for these districts and anybody searching for them internally or externally will be using that word, so who is going to end up here an be surprised? Srnec (talk) 01:23, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, "Iberia (theme)" seems to be the best option on all angles, including consistency from the category. I have updated my vote.
* Support for reasons stated above. Ghirla-трёп- 15:46, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 11 September 2022