Talk:Anna Anderson/Archive 3

message: You are twisting and distorting information.Your article is full of errors and you are presenting things as settled facts that are still very much disputed
Who are you really?
Theosophica (talk) 06:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, who cares? Stop squabbling. I suggest ChatNoir get himself or herself an actual registered account and clear up the confusion and that Annie or Aggiebean also use her registered account all the time so we aren't confronted with a long line of numbers. I think Kurth does have one and posted here as himself a year or so ago and does not appear to be the same guy as ChatNoir. The ongoing conversation is rather pointless. Anna Anderson was not Anastasia. They've identified all seven sets of remains from the Imperial family. She was probably Franziska Schanzkowska, but I don't think the DNA evidence in that case is definitive and I still have some doubts based on witness testimony about discrepancies in Franziska's appearance and behavior and Anna Anderson's. The article as it currently exists is pretty horribly POV and, unfortunately, people like Finnegan continue to remove sourced statements that contradict his point of view. The article badly needs to be edited again and examined from the point of view of neutrality. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My problem with neutrality isn't so much about whether or not she was Anastasia. It's clear that she was not, though I think there is some question about whether she was Franziska. I do have an issue with the heaping on of innuendo and criticism about supporters, about her own character, etc. and the removal of sourced citations that are contrary to Finnegan's or someone else's preferred point of view. I also think at some point someone should go through the article and trim down the various quotations, etc., that say much the same thing. The article suffers from having too many cooks with conflicting points of view. The article needs to have more flow. Again, please sign your statements with your registered name so the bot doesn't do it for you. It makes it hard to see who's saying what. And who cares if Peter Kurth and ChatNoir are the same person or not when it comes right down to it? I think it's pretty clear that they are different people, but Kurth wrote a well-researched book with a conclusion that turned out to be wrong. It's still the best available reference to Anna Anderson and the various events in her life and he acknowledged and has acknowledged his own bias so readers can take it into account. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Annie/AggieBean, but I don't and will not agree with removing the Kleinbenzetl story or the escape story or the discussions about the reported differences between Anna Anderson and Franziska Schanzkowska. They're part of the story and they're a big part of why this was accepted by so many people for so many years. They're cited, besides. I agree that she was PROBABLY Franziska Schanzkowska, but it's also a fact that the only existing photograph of Franziska Schanzkowska was retouched multiple times and it's difficult to see what the woman really looked like. Anna Anderson in old age did look quite a bit like one of the pictures I saw of FS's sisters, however. Rathlef was an artist, not a professional writer. In any event, no one is interested in the squabble over who is and who is not Peter Kurth. It's pretty irrelevant at this point if he is or is not. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 00:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

text: One of these days I'm going to go through it with a fine tooth comb and attempt to rewrite it so it flows better. I think both sides of the story need to be represented so readers can make up their own minds! But can we please stop the endless squabble over who is and is not Peter Kurth? I doubt anyone reading this cares and it doesn't matter when it comes to editing the article. I just wish people would sign their comments and register if they plan to edit the page. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 00:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Neither Mountbatten or Prince Christopher ever met Anna Anderson, however, which needs to be mentioned. They may well have interviewed people who had and formed the opinion that she was a fraud, but if someone is familiar with the process of how Christopher wrote his book, that needs to be included in this article as well so people don't come to the conclusion that he was writing it based on first-hand experience with her. The supporters were the ones who were actually familiar with Anna Anderson as a person and since the article is about "Anna Anderson" and not Anastasia, their observations are valuable. Gleb Botkin knew Anastasia AND Anna Anderson. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 10:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

text: No one can know why at this point one way or the other. The mitochondrial DNA is a match to that of the Schanzkowski family. The forensic evidence -- the ears, the handwriting, etc. -- would not be given the weight of DNA in a modern court because it's probably fallible. I will not agree to removing the stories about the forensic evidence, the handwriting, the witness testimony identifying her as the Grand Duchess, etc., because it is part of the story and it explains why so many people have believed in her for decades. She was a highly convincing claimant and there are mysteries that remain. Likewise, the testimony by people who failed to recognize her, the evidence of her mental instability, the various false stories she told, the DNA evidence, etc. needs to be in there as well, along with information qualifying that Prince Christopher and Mountbatten, two of her major detractors, didn't actually KNOW the woman but were relying on second or third hand descriptions of her encounters with other people. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 20:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Find reliable, published references and add what you want, though I think a mention that "So and so also didn't believe her" and "There were other escape stories, including .... " would be sufficient. I think the article as it exists is too long and we don't need to quote absolutely everyone on both sides ad infinitum. I don't have the time or the patience to pare down all the quotes right now. Regarding the "Ernie" trip, we can report that Anderson said he visited them, according to, I think, Rathlef, and someone else denied that did. Personally, I think it's quite possible that Ernie DID make such a trip and it was known in monarchist circles. But whatever. Prince Christopher did not meet Anna Anderson and he didn't know Anastasia that well, either. I don't know if I'd be able to identify some of my cousins who I haven't seen since they were children from photos. People change dramatically in appearance from childhood to adolescence to adulthood. There were other relatives that did think she was Anastasia, so there was a resemblance in appearance and mannerisms. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Chat Noir, if you're going to add things to the article, please cite your source -- author, title, page number, publication information. I'm assuming you got the latest additions from Kurth's book. If so, cite the page numbers and so on and use formal language: "Anna Anderson, not AA." I note typos and misspellings in some of the recent additions made by you and earlier by Annie/Aggiebean, but I don't have the patience to edit the article myself. The ongoing argument is also tiresome and pointless and it is making the talk page take too long to load. Someone needs to archive it again. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 15:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

text: ChatNoir, if it's from Von Rathlef's book, why don't you add the title, page number, publication info, etc., yourself since you have the book and I don't. I think the citations in this article need to be regularized and all done in one style too, but I don't really want to go through it myself. Annie/AggieBean, if you want to edit the article, go to it. The only thing I ask is that where appropriate, you include both sides. After mentioning that Prince Christopher thought she was a liar and a fraud, mention that a minority of the family accepted her as Anastasia. After the mention of Franziska Schanzkowska, mention that one of her siblings denied she was his sister and maybe then include speculation about why that might have been from an appropriate published source. Ideally, we need to include page numbers, authors, book titles, publication information line by line. I WISH I had two weeks off from work. I'm home sick today, so I'm probably crabbier than usual. Sorry if I snapped. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 17:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't care who edits this thing as long as it is accurate, well written, and includes appropriate citations letting people know where the information came from and as long as it presents both sides, since there's still disagreement over whether she was Franziska Schanzkowska and about whether her supporters were sincere, etc. If Kurth wants to edit this article, let him come and edit it and provide citations for his own work. So far he doesn't seem inclined to do so. Presumably he's working on things he actually gets paid to write. If you're editing it, cite your sources HERE. Don't tell people that you've written another article elsewhere and they should look for it on some other site. I will object if Annie/Aggie Bean doesn't balance the article appropriately or makes it too one-sided and I'll do the same if you do or if anyone else does. But you're not getting anywhere by sniping at each other. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 19:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  To The Writer Of This Article 

message: I just removed the last three headings, as they really contained nothing of substance other than a few personal attacks and blocked the IP user for 72 hours. At the end of that, I'm going to be watching and he is free to continue if he chooses to play nice and get along with others. If he doesn't, well, I'm happy to go down that road too. And I'm not just directing that at the IP users either. Aggibean, if you find you are unable to express your point without calling someone a hypocrite, ridiculous, etc.... maybe you need to take a break and think it over before hitting the 'ol submit button, yes? Trusilver 08:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Personal Attacks 

message: If it isn't too much, may I suggest that the idea I happened to catch here was a very good one: why doesn't someone organize an Anastasia Controversy page, a whole new reference source for people interested in the controversy? Because as I see this--and I'm a known fan of Peter Kurth's work--there seems to be a conflict in that here you have Anastasia, here you have Anna Anderson, and here you have this controversy. It may well be stated that Anna Anderson made herself famous by fooling many poeple, but I see here that she still holds people mesmerized and this warrants a whole new page. Think of it: finally, the controversy spelled out in fact and not in ridiculous edit wars... or whatever they are called.
RevAntonio (talk) 14:56, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:POVFORK, among other reasons. Trusilver 20:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is a suggestion welcome here? 

message: This is in the form of a query, respectfully: I see above a mention of the identification of Anastasia's remains...
...Isn't there a valid scientific doubt in the community as to the genuineness of these remains? After all, I do know that the present pretender to the head of the Romanov House, Maria Vladimirovna of Spain, has hotly contested all the remains.
RevAntonio (talk) 14:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remains 

message: In case anyone else hasn't paid attention, there has been an edit war going on here for awhile. Once again, Chat (IP starting with 72) continues to delete my sourced material showing proof Harriet Rathlef-Keillman was involved in the Steiner movement and that her support was at least partly based on those beliefs. I do not understand why Chat is so adamant this not be seen, unless it's because he feels it portrays his- and Kurth's- star source in an unpleasant light. However, like it or not, the information is published in at least 3 books, 2 of which I have sourced here, pages and all. Is it not wrong/against the rules for him to keep erasing this just because he doesn't like it? I understand he is within his editing rights to add contradictory commentary from other sources in addition to mine, however, completely editing out mine and changing the entire meaning of the paragraph is unacceptable, is it not? PLEASE, someone, make him refrain from doing this! You can see in the history section how many times it's been put in and taken out over the last week or so. 
Also, it is wrong that he adds or subtracts information to my quotes that completely changes their meanings and leaves in my source as the source when this is NOT what it said!  He's done it before, but most recently he's done it to say 'Rathlef was cleared of all charges' after I put she was accused of trying to defraud the royal family. I have a valid source and page number for this, but my source says nothing of her being cleared. If she was, he needs to cite his own source and not try to piggyback his info in on mine when it's not there. 
HELP!Aggiebean (talk) 22:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, I am NOT endorsing the current revision of the article nor am I singling out ChatNoir24 for causing problems. There are a great many people on this article not willing to compromise on any grounds, the problem does not lie with one person. Trusilver 16:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing out/deletion of sourced material is not allowed, I am correct? 

message: *I think that it may be helpful if someone stated what is the opinion of Peter Kurth's historical work on the controversy. I disagree 100% with aggiebean because there is certainly a documented history of this controversy, however twisted it may be at the moment. Meaning, reporting and documentation hasn't been too clear or honest sometimes--but does that erase the controversy? Does that mean, NO, we must not create a Wikipedia page addressing the controversy that raged since around 1919? Waged perhaps even earlier? It is a thought, and a good one. I do not come here to defend Kurth where Kurth is wrong or indefensible, but to say that many woes would be healed with a controversy page. Though I'm not fully certain of aggiebean's meaning, you cannot deny history! What next, a suggestion that we erase and ignore all controversy surrounding the Holocaust? It's a valid comparison.
*RevAntonio (talk) 12:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cherry-picking? 

message: *Hello. I follow with lively interest the ChatNoir and aggiebean arguments. But they are tedious. Aggiebean, you defend well, but I'd start ignoring this Chat chap if I were you. Science has decreed with proof and quintuple verification that Anna Anderson Manahan was not HIH Anastasia Nicolaevna Romanov. She was Franziska Schanzkowska, and Lord knows how she pulled off the terrific fraud for so long, if we can call it <<fraud>>. She didn't get away with it, so no fraud, not ever, except for the few she fooled.
So why is this darned argument raging here at all? Ah-ha! You see why we should have a controversy entry in Wikipedia? You guys aren't afraid of airing this argument-controversy in a proper entry of its own, are you? Think of a poor high school kid, depending on Wikipedia (which his teachers have sagely told him NOT to do) to help with research on the greatest hoaxer of all time. He looks up Anna Anderson, and what does he find? YOUR mess! I say that cheerfully, but not all are equipped with scholar's eyes for weeding through the mess.
And I elect, for what little it's worth from me, aggiebean to write the new page! How's that for a surprise in the Cracker Jacks!
*RevAntonio (talk) 14:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tired eyes, for one thing.... 

message: Obviously, what is happening so far is not doing much to end the dispute. A years-long edit war has failed to bring either side any closer to a resolution, so I think you might consider moving forward with the resolution process. The next logical step I see would be to either take this back to to WP:MEDCAB for more informal mediation, or take this to WP:MEDCOM for formal mediation. I also think that you might just want to do something as simple as filing an RfC, just to find some third-party opinions on the dispute. In the past, that route is as effective or more effective than mediation provided that all parties are receptive. 
Thoughts? Trusilver 19:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving forward with dispute resolution

message: :Okay, this obviously isn't accomplishing a whole lot. Let me ask a question to all parties involved: What would you like to see changed on the article as it currently stands, or are you happy with the article as it currently stands? Trusilver 02:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I will give one opinion on this and allow it to be interpreted as you will: Every person that achieves any form of celebrity status during their lifetime will eventually (especially after they are dead and can't pursue claims of libel) have something written about them that is patently false and easily provable as such. Fringe authors have repeatedly written books detailing life events of famous historical figures that conflict with the writings of others. In these situations, it has been past Wikipedia practice to not lend weight to that which can be easily disproven. Not every opinion is equal and Wikipedia does not have any obligation to give equal weight to all sides of an obviously lopsided disagreement of fact. That being said, I'm going to to open an RfC today for this article (bear with me, I'm busy today) and perhaps we will get some other opinions. Trusilver 16:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just one note before anyone responds to this: I've blocked this user for a period of one week for his long-term pattern of disruptive posting and personal attacks. He's more than welcome to resume after the week, provided he can refrain from his previous behaviors. Trusilver 02:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Solution for Trusilver

message: *In light of the requests for opinions on Anna Anderson and its final form, let me first join in to agree that Anna Anderson Manahan was a pathetic pretend/impostor. If we can agree on that, and I think we all do, let us then move on to dropping Peter Kurth (I still respect his early 1980s research and documentation). Then let us drop all other non-credulous "references".
*Know where that leaves us? With no Anna Anderson at all. That is really the solution here. Once that's done, an Anna Anderson page will doubtless start all over again... but we will have united to make this issue accurate.
*And I still say we put a CONTROVERSY section on Anastasia's page, because I know, no matter how badly you dislike it, there was controversy beginning in 1919 as to whether anyone in the Imperial Family got out of the massacre alive! It had nothing to do with Anna until she got herself in the papers.
*So we can address impostors-in-general in the controversy section; because it was and is a real controversy. Sorry aggiebean, but there it is. Then it can be cited carefully that many Anastasia impostors popped up and were demolished. Any good bio of the Imperial Family will back that up... problem solved? Or do we keep nitpicking this preposterous issue?
*In short, I am proposing a deletion of the Anna Anderson page. Since I don't know how it's officially done, I'm proposing it here and now.
*RevAntonio (talk) 03:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Then how about this... 

message: *My above suggestions are clearly stated, and they are my ideas about what could be done here. In wishing to keep the page as it is, you clearly wish to keep this controversy going here. You, who say there never was any controversy. Aggiebean, put your money where your mouth is and prove here that there was never any controversy about the possible survival of members of the Imperial Family. I'll work on my proof, so be prepared. Nicholas and Alexandra will be where I begin!
*No, I do not endorse that anyone was Anastasia other than HIH Anastasia. Science showed us what the truth is. You are not thinking clearly on this subject if you see my outright statement and then try to put opposing words in my mouth!
*Finally, for the 3rd or 4th time, I'm no longer saying we need a controversy page, only a section in Anastasia that shares the history of the controversy. There is no need to get so hot-headed about that. It's real, and I'm so sorry for any student who comes to research the issue here. If you can't handle a clean, honest "controversy" section on Anastasia's page, then what is the spirit of wiki supposed to be about here? Does the controversy need all this garbage? No! Only a concise history about the possible survival of memebers of the family. Then, for some reason, people latched onto Anastasia-- including my father, as I have stated here before. I do not propose we support or favor Anna Anderson.
*What an exasperation it is here sometimes!
*RevAntonio (talk) 17:35, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oh, come off it already! 

message: *Look, everyone, to start with I want to offer an apology for whatever it is worth. When I first came to edit at Wikipedia years and years ago, it was very different. But I started off here as abrasive and it was agreed that my posts here were disruptive--though that was a tad unfair.
*Now I want you to know, though I have always been a fan of Peter Kurth's, and I respect his historical research, I SEE HE WAS MISTAKEN. I will not believe that in 1984-1986 when he wrote his book he was trying to do some sort of confidence trick with Anastasia's survival or identity. He believed what he wrote, though little of it is truly biased. I've re-read him again and again--have any of you?
*In re-reading him closely, and studying other biographies, I was quickly convinced to abandon my misguided belief that Anna Anderson was Anastasia. I have many personal reasons for being misguided, but I am not misguided any longer.
*Accept my apology too, for my sloppy mention of Massey: it is Robert Massie, biographer of Nicholas and Alexandra. And it is there I will begin to make my case for the history of a controversy about the survival of the Imperial Family. Then I'll hopefully show some of you the reasoning behind at least rewriting Anna Anderson, so that it deflects ties with Anastasia.
*I'm still convinced that a controversy section, perhaps on the page about the Tsar or wherever, is a good idea. It doesn't have to be on Anastasia's page, but I thought it ought to be....
*Again, my apologies. You do have every right to view me as a crazy, imbalanced old man with obsessive ideas. That is how I presented myself all along here. Now, I ask you: can you give me a chance, forgive, and try not to be so mean in debate? Must this Anna Anderson slop be dragged out eternally?
*Are you going to stop contradiction and admit there has always been a silly controversy, it is part of HISTORY? Because you say we must not delete Anna Anderson. Why not, if she's such a hideous fraud? Because she's TRUE HISTORY. So you say we must not link her to Anastasia for fear that we are endorsing her fraudulent claims. But why not keep her linked to Anastasia? Isn't that the best remedy for those who still buy the malarkey?
*RevAntonio (talk) 19:00, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just one note on the possibility of a controversy section. While controversy sections are not expressly prohibited (quite a many controversy sections exist on a quite a many articles here), the preferred method is to integrate the controversy into the article itself. It if it is possible to include the information without its own section, that would be the best way to go. However, a controversy section would not be totally out of line. Trusilver 19:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The WHITE'S flag 

message: *To Trusilver. You have risen to the ocassion! Your paragraph above is just the view we needed to start considering! And my apology stands offered to you, too.
*RevAntonio (talk) 19:10, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  ...And a Thank-you!! 

message: *All my recommendations for Anna Anderson stand. They are in good faith and I see one person here who simply can't stand it. You see, aggiebean who hides and cannot be emailed directly, I have disciplined myself and you certain people here simply won't let go. I have meditated--have you? You will not goad me into attempting to attack or even defend myself. You may believe what you like. We monks are hot-tempered as anyone, and all true Buddhists know this fact. So I am a crazy old man, abrasive and passionate. There will be no more apologies from me here. And by the way, your attack on me, my religion and my credulity are going to be reported. Fair is fair and discipline is discipline. Trusilver will not tolerate this kind of thing, as I well know. Ah, so many alike, so many exactly the same....
*RevAntonio (talk) 22:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A well-deserved shot in the face... but it won't work 

message: *aggiebean who hides, can you not read the rules of this discussion page? Slipping your remark under Trusilver's... very crafty. But I have reported you for your attacks. And from the horse's mouth, it puts Trusilver in a "foul" mood when he has to "babysit" immature editors. By the way, didn't I say about a zillion times that I do not believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia? It isn't me who needs to let go. Re-read Trusilver's message about my suggestions, you know, the one you snuck in under, to post your attack on me. Say... a question has occurred to me, you won't answer it honestly of course: are aggiebean and finneganw one and the same? Makes me think, anyway.... What has happened to ChatNoir? Gone for good? Banned thanks to aggiebean/finneganw? How do you do that, hide so well and seem to be more than one person?
*RevAntonio (talk) 22:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  By the way... 

message: you are in error, aggiebean, who loves accusing others. i am here only to counter your attack on buddhism. buddhist priests/monks are commonly known and titled as reverend. if you were not quite so ignorant and ready to pick fights, you would know this. don't waste your semi-precious time replying because i have taken leave of this wretched page and you stubborn people who have trusilver's protection.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.116.175 (talk) 16:57, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  note to aggiebean 

message: He came back and deleted a bunch of comments by me and finneganw. He is totally out of control and needs to be stopped. I see he is aggravating others on other pages too. He has a slightly different IP this time but it's still him. I tried to undo his changes but I don't think it worked. Can anything be done about this outrageous behavior?Aggiebean (talk) 10:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is Wikipedia and it is not a democracy. I'm rangeblocking you this time to deal with your block evasion for good. Trusilver 18:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The troll is back and now vandalizing the talk page

message: I wish to propose the following solution to the Anna Anderson page to end the ridiculous edit war that has occurred. 
I believe everything should be removed below the current introduction. I welcome suggestions. I believe there is no need to tell Anna Anderson's story. She was an impostor and this has been well and truly proved as all the Romanovs murdered in Ekaterinburg have been accounted for by extensive proven DNA testing in numerous laboratories. There is no evidence Anderson was ever in Russia and there is certainly no link to the Romanovs. Please give your opinions. I plan to make this alteration after a week if there is no objection. Thanks in advance. Anna Anderson should really be a very minor page at Wikipedia as she was a proven impostor and a personage of very little historical importance. User:Finneganw 14:03, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Simplifying Anna Anderson page ... your thoughts please!

message: Chat you have yet again provided information of your various sock puppetry. It is absolutely useless discussing any of this with you as you are a a rabid Anderson supporter who cannot look at the matter factually or clearly. You cannot find alternative sources to Kurth and Rathlef as they simply do not exist. They are both inaccurate sources which have been totally discredited. As such they will be removed in line with wikipedia policy that discredited sources cannot be used as references. You have been caught out. If you wish to continue vandalising the Anna Anderson page appropriate measures will be taken. Your trashing of proven historical references will be reverted. You are causing an edit war and have been warned.User:Finneganw 23:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  ChatNoir24, his many guises and use of inaccurate referencing in contravention of wikipedia policy 

message: The following are sock puppets of ChatNoir24 :
67.119.135.252
66.245.238.77
72.25.99.30 
User:Finneganw 00:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sock Puppetry of [[ChatNoir24]] exposed

message: I thought he was deleted but he's back. I don't know how strongly I need to emphasize that as long as he is allowed to edit this article there will be endless edit wars, 3 reverts, and him adding in info now discredited as invalid in his desperate attempt to try to convince somebody she must have really been Anastasia despite the DNA. He also inserts sneaky little snippets of his own snide commentary and tries to pass them off as being part of someone else's validly sourced sentence. As was covered before, now that AA is a proven fraud, there is no obligation for a 'balanced' article that appeases her 'side.' Her 'side' is now simply inaccurate misinformation that does not belong in the article. He may say 'but this person said it' well, this person is proven wrong, and sourced or not, it's invalid. Once again, the point of this article is fact and education and reality, not games and fantasies. Please, mods, this person will NEVER stop no matter how many chances you give him because that is his goal, to disrupt the article and leave doubt as to her identity. We don't need that.Aggiebean (talk) 01:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Chat is back

message: This is a message for wikipedia moderators on how an obsesssive extreme POV Anderson supporter was dealt with elsewhere.
It is most interesting to see how the Forum Administrator at the Alexander Palace dealt with an obsessive Anderson supporter, Schweitzer. 
Here is what he told Schweitzer:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=p049olico9vovcfjuvvetv9i77&topic=10364.msg292906#msg292906
"I'm done. I'm locking the thread. I will no longer tolerate this bull***t. No more game playing. We will no longer provide this forum as a place for Richard Schweitzer to propogandize his theories, much less call them "truth". They aren't.
Take your fairy tales elsewhere Schweitzer, you had a chance to actually answer questions, but you just won't. You are as much a FRAUD sir, as FS was masquerading under the name of Anna Manahan pretending to be the long deceased Anastasia Nicholaievna. The reason you are a fraud is that the tissue sample was NOT "putative" according to you until you did not get the results you wanted. YOU had no doubt as to whom the sample belonged, until, surprise, the answer wasn't the one you liked. Then suddenly, it becomes "putative". Go away you humbug, you hypocritical obfuscator. Come back when you have some genuine facts or evidence, and have the "cojones" to actually take a position and prove it.Take your crap elsewhere, we will not be party to your deception any longer."
The same equally applies to other obsessive Anderson supporters. The game is over. Anderson has been exposed as a complete fraud and it is pointless continuing the rubbish that has been left on this discussion board by obsessive supporters who are totally unwilling to accept proven historical fact. Their continued extreme POV agenda of adding in discredited 'sources' is not acceptable in any shape or form anywhere, especially at wikipedia. This message has been placed for moderators to see how one Anderson supporter was dealt with firmly elsewhere. He was banned for his continuing obstructive behaviour and pushing a false POV agenda. I would seriously recommend that the Anderson page be locked to prevent further distortion and deliberate vandalism by POV Anderson supporters. Finneganw  02:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: An example of dealing with fraudsters

message: The information found below serves to enlighten those who need information about the reality of Anderson. It relates to Gleb Botkin's son-in-law's (Richard Schweitzer) bizarre attempt to cover up Anderson and the DNA testing. It comes from the Administrator of the Alexander Palace discussion board.:
Schweizer wrote: The "DNA" was a physical result of scientific procedures that were state of the art at that time. But, it was clearly stated by those scientisits that the tests were of "putative" tissue. We have never cavilled with those procedures.  Thus, he obliquely states that the "tissue" was only "putative" as Anna Manahan's.  The option he thus suggests is that there was some doubt that the tissue was really hers.
It not being hers explains why the results showed no relation to the Victoria line of descent.  I did some digging:
Peter Gill,  13th INTERPOL Forensic Science Symposium, Lyon, France, October 16-19 2001:
MtDNA has proven invaluable in solving historical mysteries such as the fate of the Romanov family (Gill et al 1994) and testing the claim of Anna Anderson to be the Duchess Anastasia (Gill et al 1995).  Dr. Gill calls the results invaluable to solving the mystery.  He doensn't seem to mention any doubts in his mind about the results here...
]Mitochondrial Steve: paternal inheritance of mitochondria in humans
Lindell Bromham, Adam Eyre-Walker, Noel H. Smith and John Maynard Smith
Centre for the Study of Evolution, School of Biological Sciences, University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton, Sussex BN1 9QG, UK
mtDNA analysis has also been used to counter ongoing claims to the Romanov dynasty. In 1995, sequencing of mtDNA from Anna Anderson
Manahan showed that she could not have been Anastasia, daughter ofTsar Nicolas II, as she claimed [c].
References
c Stoneking, M. et al. (1995) Establishing the identity of Anna Anderson Manahan. Nat. Genet. 9, 9–10
Hmmm, they seem pretty sure that the results were good when they made these assertion here. 
NATURE REVIEWS, GENETICS,  VOLUME 5
OCTOBER 2004
pgs 731 et seq
ENCODED EVIDENCE:DNA IN FORENSIC ANALYSIS
MarkA.Jobling and Peter Gill
The remains of one of the Tsar’s daughters,Anastasia,were absent from the grave,and controversy surrounded the
claim that she escaped execution and survived,under the identity of Anna Anderson.STR analysis of 20-year-old
paraffin wax embedded samples from Anderson was inconsistent with her being a daughter of the Tsar and Tsarina.
However,the mtDNA sequences matched those of Carl Maucher,a putative maternal relative of a woman named
Franzisca Schankowska.The mtDNA results were confirmed by an independent group from Penn State University,who
concurrently analysed hair shafts purported to have come from Anna Anderson
note131
131. Gill, P. et al. Establishing the identity of Anna Anderson Manahan. Nature Genet. 9, 9–10 (1995).
Nobody who did the tests seems to have the slightest doubts about the results that Anna Manahan was NOT ANR.  I don't see "putative" anywhere here other than the relationship between Maucher and FS...which nobody disputes.  
Finneganw 11:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Further information to enlighten

message: I am not going to bother to fight with Chat anymore, I have done it for years all over the net and I can tell you for a fact his rationality and realistic objectivity are long gone and it's hopeless to try get him to accept reality. There will be no 'compromise.' There is no getting through to him or changing his mind or making him see reason. He is a lost cause. However, that should not mean the article is. I see only two ways to put an end to all this outrageous fighting that shouldn't even still be an issue after the March 2009 DNA publications.
1. BAN AND DELETE CHAT. He is a detriment to the article, his info is discredited or false, and he will edit war with us several times a day, forever. It's hopeless. Ban him, or...
2. MAKE A "WHAT SUPPORTERS BELIEVE" section to the article. Leave the article intact with the true info provided me Finneganw and myself, and then add a section near the bottom called 'what AA supporters believe' and let Chat go mad in there telling his side and no one will change a thing. Even though I totally believe his 'side' should not be included and by rules doesn't have to be, this would at least, hopefully, keep him out of terrorizing the rest of the article and letting him have his 'say', fantasy though it is. That way anyone who reads the article will see that his stuff is not the real thing, unless, of course, it's another AA supporter, and then there's probably no hope for them either. 
Of course I would prefer option 1. 
Aggiebean (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The only two possible options to save the article

message: It is very noble of you to put forward a solution. Suggestion 2 has already been discussed Aggiebean as unworkable. Supporters live in a bizarre fantasyland. They should be using the sandbox as wikipedia has never supported discredited information. Under every edit section it clearly displays :
===Encyclopedic content must be verifiable===
None of the information put forward by supporters is ===verifiable=== as it has been proven to be completely inaccurate and openly discredited. ChatNoir24's vandalism has been reported. It is now only a matter of time before he is banned. He should take note of that. He has already blatantly broken the 3RR ruling. Finneganw 22:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solution and warning 

message: None of the information put forward by supporters is ===verifiable=== as it has been proven to be completely inaccurate and openly discredited. ChatNoir24's vandalism has been reported. It is now only a matter of time before he is banned. He should take note of that. He has already blatantly broken the 3RR ruling. Finneganw 22:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Encyclopedic content must be verifiable

message: The book, "I, Anastasia" claimed to be written by Anderson. In fact it never was written by her. It was put together by her supporters in a feeble attempt to prove she was Anastasia which the whole world knows she was not. It was full of flaws and is now regarded with contempt by historians. It is not credible in any way as a source. It is a ridiculous piece of proven fiction. It has no place at wikipedia except as an example of fraud. Its entire content can be easily refuted. It's really amazing the desperate straws fanatical Anderson supporters cling to. The one thing they have in common is an irrational inability to understand that others can see through their fiction and scams. Finneganw 22:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: I, Anastasia

message: I've fully protected this article, meaning only sysops are able to edit it, for a week due to the rather out-of-hand dispute that's been going on recently, and the fact that this doesn't seem to be the first time this has happened on this article. I personally have no idea exactly what the dispute is over, nor how valid the arguments and sources are, but edit warring over it isn't the way to go. Use the talk page to discuss changes to the article, but don't edit war over it on the article. It looks like the editing has quieted down in the past few hours, so I haven't given out any blocks for 3RR or edit warring, although it looks like I probably could have. In the future, WP:3RR would be the place to report 3RR violations for a quick response, and WP:Sockpuppet investigations is the place to go if you believe editors are currently engaged in sockpuppetry. For what it's worth, I've watchlisted the article and will try to at least keep an eye on things from now on. AlexiusHoratius 04:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your responses to other posters, Finnegan, ARE frequently quite rude, as is the one above. I don't believe that Anna Anderson was Anastasia. I think it's likely she was Franziska Schanzkowska. But there are authors, predominantly Kurth, who call that into question and his work belongs in the article along with those of authors and scientists who say she was Franziska, a fraud, whatever else has been written about her. I object to your continual sniping about Kurth and your accusations that he supposedly is one or another of the anonymous posters here. I have no way of knowing who is or is not Kurth on this board. I imagine he has better things to do with his time than edit something for free, but if he does edit, he'd have to cite his work like everyone else. It's the content of the article that needs to be of importance here, not who the poster is. The article has been a mess and needs editing for grammar, spelling, and to regularize references. It also should say Anderson was most likely Franziska, which it does, but contain succinct information about the whole story, INCLUDING why people supported her and why a few might doubt she was Franziska, while not believing she was Anastasia. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 19:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full protection 

message: Finneganw, you have been warned at least twice by adminstration-level about making false accusations of sock-puppetry; you were advised that a user using multiple IP addresses is NOT sock puppetry. Your arguments for truth here are commendable, but please stop your false accusations and your hounding. You have been warned several times as a courtesy--you're on report for false accusations and wikihounding.
As to this new information, I see an agenda comprised of bashing certain authors on this entry. There is your clear refusal to acknowledge history-as-it-occurred. Please stop bullying/hounding people here who disagree with you. You already know that there will be no successful attempts here to claim Anna was HIH Anastasia, so why not get back to work on cleaning up this mess of an article? Instead of hounding, accusing and victimizing people?
[Addition of accidentally omitted comment]: you know who I am, though you have accused me of being several others. I, unlike several users here, am not afraid of being recognized.
76.195.94.220 (talk) 17:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A simple thing 

message: The cause of massive problems is back as is evidence by the long rant found immediately above. Sadly it would seem he has learnt nothing at all from being banned for a time. It would seem that such a ban needs to be put in place once more, for an extended period, as he cannot understand why he was banned in the first place. Finneganw 22:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: RevAntonio/76.195.94.220 is back

message: Have you, a. & f., no heart at all? I for one have been saying for weeks (before you got me banned by your pocket administrator) that I do not believe Anna is HIH Anastasia. Yet you fail to see something equally important:
...in the history of this fruad, many of us believed from childhood that there was NO ANNA ANDERSON MANAHAN. We believed in only Princess Anastasia. Mama and Papa talked of the Imperial Family and their possible survival. I've mentioned this here before.
But you, you heartless people, cannot ever separate Anna from the Grand Duchess, because for our generation, for many generations before and many since, she was Anastasia.
All you have to do is find an old paper from the 1950s or 1960s. People here loved her, because she represented hope. Like the hope of escape from your evildoings here, many, many generations hoped Anna was really Anastasia--so she became Anastasia. You, aggiebean, who hates history so much, you cannot erase what perhaps your own great-grandparents may have believed: THE HOPE of Anastasia, the hope that Anna Anderson Manahan represented.
NO. ANNA ANDERSON MANAHAN WAS NOT ANASTASIA. It matters little if I say that--you say I'm Peter Kurth! You say I'm pushing agendas here, and you are insane! Work at this, put your money where your mouth is and write a good entry for Anna. Do it for all those ignorant peasants who hoped, and put all their hopes on her.
You said it: the truth is there, it's incontravertible. So what, then, is the big friggin' deal?? Do you think I'm vandalising the page? You know I'm not and so does Trusilver.
By the way aggiehistoryqueenbean, the family's name is SCHANSKOWSKI. 30 years studying, eh? And you don't know the -a at the end signifies a woman of the family, that it is not spelled quite the same as the surname proper?
And they still let you guys do what you will here!
YES!! An official, finneganw-grade rant!! Get it while it's hot, it's lovely!!76.195.94.220 (talk) 01:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In support of the worm and the daughter 

message: Okay, I had started with the idea that perhaps this was a large-scale content dispute, and it's looking more and more like plain old disruptive editing. I'm about one inch from kicking this thing up to WP:ANI, and the next admin who comes in here will probably lack my mild manners and hesitation to block disruptive editors. First, no more accusations of sockpuppetry, cyberterrorism, etc. This is an article talk page, meant only for finding ways to compromise and improve the article. If you believe that there has been other stuff going on, such as wikihounding and block/ban evasion, then there are other venues for that. What I want to see, in simple English, and under 5 kB, is what each side wants to happen with the article. What do you want to change, and what are your greatest problems with what the other side is trying to do. Stick to what changes to the article you want to see happen, and, at least for 48 hours, try to forget about who did what in the past. Lets at least try to approach this thing as rational editors.
Also, please start signing your posts the way everyone else does, by simply putting four tildes at the end, and please start indenting your posts with a colon, as it is getting difficult to follow. AlexiusHoratius 04:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough 

message: I believe the solution is as follows:
Delete everything in the article not above the current =Content= box. There is quite enough in the summary that deals with Anderson. 
Anderson fraudently attempted to pass herself off as Grand Duchess Anastasis Nikolaievna of Russia and has been totally exposed as an imposter. She has been completely historically and scientifically proven not to have ever been Grand Duchess Anastasia. In fact she was Franziska Schankowska. Extensive DNA testing by some of the most eminent scientists in the world in numerous laboratories have dealt with this. It is no longer open to debate except from a very small group of rabid fanatics who cannot accept reality and wish to push a completely untrue agenda that Anderson was Anastasia. These fanatics constantly use the discredited book by Kurth which pushed the POV agenda that Anderson was Anastasia. They also use Rathlef, a journalist from 1920s who invented information on Anderson and also Botkin who was a fellow conspirator. Both Rathlef and Botkin made huge amounts of money out of Anderson. Kurth has latterly done the same before being exposed as pushing a POV agenda. They fanatics are not interested in the hundreds of other credible sources that totally destroy their agenda and choose to engage in personal attack when they are exposed.
I believe this is sufficient. The situation is very simple. There is proven historical and scientific reality and then there is extreme POV fantasy.  =END=Finneganw 10:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In other words: You two want to delete the whole story about Anna Anderson, simply because there is too much evidence there that indicates that she might have been Anastasia. How very convenient. But that is not how history works. And I am sure the editors of Wikipedia will agree with me. The story of Anna Anderson stands as it happened, like it or not. The testimonies, the opinions, the recognitions, the rejections, the findings by the scientists, it is all the story of the claimant to the identity of Grand Duchess Anastasia. And while we're at it, could you two please show me just ONE thing in Peter Kurth's eminent book that has been discredited? I have waited for weeks now, and none of you have been able to show me a single thing. ChatNoir24 (talk) 15:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Anderson was not Anastasia, since we have DNA testing that proves otherwise, both on her body and on the remains discovered at Ekaterinburg. I won't agree, however, to removing all references to her similarities or citations of books by her supporters. It's part of the story and the whole story belongs in the article. Kurth's conclusion has been disproven, but his book remains a good source of the story of Anderson and her various supporters. Certainly other references with opposite viewpoints should be used as well and the DNA evidence and the conclusion that she was most likely Franziska Schanzkowska needs to be at the start of the article. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to add that my main problem with editing of the article has been tit for tat editing: "Anna Anderson was a fraud," with lengthy quotes from references that are very poorly cited, or "Anna Anderson was Anastasia," with just a reference to someone's website. It's a mess. It can be hard to read or figure out where the statement is coming from with no page numbers or publication info. All the citations need to be regularized. There's no objectivity. This is Anderson's article, not Anastasia's, and Kurth's and others' books have value as a tale of HER life, even though it can be proven that he was wrong about her being Anastasia. It needs to include more about where she lived, whom she knew, whom she married, her medical history, her personality, as well as the trials, who supported her and why, and who didn't.  The best reference for that is still Kurth's book. There are too many accusations flung about as fact about supporters,  for instance, "Gleb Botkin was in it for the money or was an evil mastermind." Neutral language must be employed. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 16:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You're missing the larger point, I think, which is that the article is about Anna Anderson and her life and times. Kurth's book is a biography of Anna Anderson, who now turns out not to be Anastasia. It contains information about HER personality, health, relationships, living arrangements, and other things that happened in HER life. Kurth's book remains the most comprehensive biography of Anderson and details about her life in the book belong in the article. Other books about ANDERSON, not books merely proving why her claims were fraudulent, would be equally good citations. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Ahem, may I ask Bookworm and AlexiusHoratius exactly WHERE in Kurth's book he comes to the conclusion that Anna Anderson and Anastasia were the same person? ChatNoir24 (talk) 17:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In my copy of the book, Kurth explicitly writes: "Yes, I believed her and I was proud to stand on her side in the struggle." The fact that he drew the wrong conclusion doesn't negate the rest of his work, in my opinion. It remains a well-written, well-researched book by an author with a bias, who acknowledged where he had the bias. Such a book should be examined with a critical eye and its viewpoint countered with books representing other viewpoints. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Bookworm, that is Mr. Kurth's personal belief, and only that. Not anywhere in his research does he personally indicate that Anna Anderson was Anastasia. ChatNoir24 (talk) 18:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We mean essentially the same thing and are phrasing it differently. Kurth acknowledges in a forward to the second edition of the book that he believed her. That naturally reflects on what people think as they read what he wrote and consider what sources he chose and the material he cited. As a journalist I know that I can't be 100 percent objective because I'm human and have opinions. Nevertheless I try, and I know that people have told me they can't tell what I actually believe when they read certain political articles. If I'm covering politics, I don't tell them and try to just represent what each side believes and let people make up their own minds. Kurth was objective to the best of his ability, but his statement of belief shades the way everyone still reads the book, even though it is well-researched and is a good presentation of the facts. It does lead me to think he left some things out. It can't be the only source we use, but it should be A source. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 19:12, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: One of the problems here, is Aggiebeans outright LIES! Yes, Aggiebean, I am calling you a LIAR on a public forum. First of all: I have NEVER said that I believe she was Anastasia, I only want the story told correctly. Second, I am NOT Peter Kurth. Third: I have NEVER gone into your comments on the talk page and changed them. You really have to stop your accusations. As for Kurth's book, he clearly writes about 2 different people, something I have already pointed out to you in an earlier post. Anastasia Tschaikovski (later Manahan)and Anastasia Nikolaievna. Anna Anderson was only a pseudonym and never her legal name. As for his sources, he uses some from Harriet Rathlef Keilmann and Gleb Botkin, and a myriad of others. A lot comes from the testimonies made in the Hamburg trial. And the wonderful thing with Kurth's book is that everything is sourced. And I still dare you to show me just ONE thing in his book that has been discredited. Just one! ChatNoir24 (talk) 20:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: The problem here is you and your co-hort Finneganw whose only contributions to this page have been to slander and throw accusations at everybody who do not see things your way. I know what I believe, I do not need you to lie about it. As for Rathlef, none of her writings have been proven wrong. What happened, happened. And she was a first hand witness, not like the writings of Prince Christopher which are nothing but hearsay. I know you are adamantly against Rathlef's account of what took place at the Mommsen Clinic in 1925, but her version has been backed up by Herluf Zahle and Professor Rudnev. And when you read Bella Cohen's interview with Olga and Shura in the New York Times, you realize that Frau Rathlef's version was really minimizing what took place. Also, Frau Rathlef sent her manuscript via the Danish Embassy in Berlin to Olga for verification. Olga returned the manuscript with the remark that is was "quite correct". Olga's own writings also verify that she was of the opinion that the unknown patient in Berlin was her niece. None of this makes Anna Anderson into a Grand Duchess, it only shows that the persons involved, Olga, Shura and Gilliard, were of the belief that it might be her. Vorres' version was issued after Olga's death, and also belies Olga's own writings, and has very little in common with Olga's own testimony in Toronto. (Hamburg) In Kurth's book you will also find him saying that "Franzisca had joined Anastasia and the Tsar's daughter". He clearly keeps the two Anastasias apart.  See my earlier post: Again, put your glasses on and read page xix in Peter Kurth's book: PRINCIPAL CHARACTERS. Anastasia Tschaikovsky, also known as Anna Anderson, claimant to the identity of Grand Duchess Anastasia. Anastasia Nicolaievna, Grand Duchess of Russia. Got it?`ChatNoir24 (talk) 18:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe she did go by the name Anastasia Manahan during the later years of her life and Anna Anderson was not a name she ever called herself or was called regularly by people who knew her. Kurth apparently made the choice, as I do as a journalist, to call people what they want to be called. He did make an attempt to distinguish between Anderson and the grand duchess in his cast of characters. The bottom line for me is that Kurth's book is the current best reference we have to Anderson's life and it must be used as a reference. I think the article should be fleshed out with some of the stories about her life in Germany and in the U.S. with Jack Manahan. There must be some news or magazine articles about the two of them from that time or books that I don't happen to have. Hopefully someone HAS written a book based on interviews with the Schanzkowskis that will be given out. I don't think it's a given that Rathlef's material is faulty and it belongs in the article in a short section, along with a "So and so says this account is false and Grand Duchess Olga did not recognize Anderson as Anastasia." I do not agree to Finnegan's suggestion of deleting all but the lead. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

text: You do "not accept the reason for being called Anastasia". If that is your best argument, I see no reason for you even being here. And the entire Franzisca story was made up from beginning to end, with a paid witness who had everything written up in her little book so "she would not forget anything", a paid newspaper, a bank detective who lost his evidence, a twice retouched photo, another doctored photo and a family who denied any relation. In addition, NOBODY ever came forward claiming the unknown in Berlin to be their classmate, their friend, their co-worker, their patient etc. Absolutely nobody. As for the dog chasing his tail, that is the usual line you use when you run out of arguments. ChatNoir24 (talk) 00:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Solution for AlexiusHoratius from [[Finneganw|Finneganw]]

message: I agree 100% with the rational suggestions, and aggiebean has made as good a set of suggestions as anyone else.
The new referee here probably also feels his head will explode, but his idea is excellent and so is everyone's agreement on it. (Maybe with one exception, and I'll get to him in a sec.)
My agreement is also with finneganw. The TRUTH is what matters here. Only recall this: we have to, we must, whether we like it or not, begin with Anna-the-hopeful and end with Anna-the-fraud. That means a smattering of what bookworm suggested and what ferrymansdaughter also suggested, in part. Fits all criteria worked out herein. And I hope this last gasp of mine proves my intentions, and my identity.
I shouldn't even be posting. But it looks like this crazy place is nearing sanity! So, I will call especially to ChatNoir's attention: the referee here has said enough, and that ought to be respected.
75.21.109.14 (talk) 01:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm out, but I'm in 

message: OK, so nobody's biting now that we seem to have more balance here.
The following is a good suggestion for the entry's new look--it is the proper scholastic & journalistic method:
1. The entry should take the approach of telling what you're about to tell, then tell it, then tell what you've just told. It's an old maxim used for public speeches.
2. We're reporting, not debating, because this is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Instead of merely chopping the article near the top, let us spell it out only like it is. This is rough, so bear with me: the rewritten article as I propose states Anna Anderson Manahan was a fraud who was able to sustain her charade for close to 60 years. She should, by rights, have been totally ignored and thrown into an asylum or sanatorium. But somehow, this Anastasia-hope pervaded in the public, and we must cite some sources as to why that happened. That is reporting on history, and offers no judgment. Then we catch up and state science has proved her to be a total fraud, with proper citations.
3. The rule of approximately 2 lines should be used: 2 or 3 lines to state each fact chronologically. Thus follows the approximate 2-citation rule, about 2 or 3 supporting citations for each thing. It practically writes itself.
4. This article does NOT need any more points-of-view, such as the validity of Kurth. I bring up Kurth because I cannot find evidence that his original 1983 book is fraudulent or inaccurate. He cannot be ruled out as a source, or we'd have nothing! The article can state that he is an improperly biased resource today. We all know there is an agenda to totally separate Anna from HIH. That cannot be done, it's unnecessarily revisionist.
Remember, this article deals with the person of Anna Anderson Manahan. It must read like a newspaper report, up-to-date, with facts and sources. NOTHING else should be there. The story is social history which cannot be changed, no matter how much we dislike what occurred in the past. Point is it is all in the past, because science has spoken on this issue.
The locked page, as it is now, is an unholy mess. It is longer than this talk page, and at the bottom, below the quoted sources, we see Anastasia over and over. All that must be taken out of there.
Perhaps an illustrative analogy: let's say People or Time did this as a feature article. What would they do? They would report, and be thorough. They'd be neutral because all the facts are there waiting to be reported. And their article would be a quarter of the length of the present Wikipedia Anna entry.
Remember, there hasn't been anyone like the fraud Anna in modern history--perhaps never in all history. There has to be a compelling article of fact, so there is no doubt she was a fraud and no doubt of the other facts. In this way, she is a bit like Madame Blavatsky. I haven't seen Wikipedia's entry on her, but it may serve as a good template, I don't know....
OK, there's the humble contribution of what this article should be and how it should look. Agreements? Any takers?
75.21.109.14 (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for format of re-done entry 

message: Although my attempts at informal mediation bore little, if any, fruit, the last period of protection, which lasted a week, has now lapsed and I've removed the protection template. 
While editing of the article is possible again, it would be a wise choice to continue discussing things on the talk page instead of heading straight for the article. To the editors who were involved in the earlier edit wars, - IPs, accounts, whatever, - please consider any significant content edit to already be contentious, and thus in need of talk page agreement before it is made on the article. When faced with a significant content dispute, administrators have two options to restore some sort of order - full protection and blocking disruptive editors. While I opted for protection the first time around, blocking editors, including range blocks on IPs, will probably be the response to a repeat of the type of edit warring that went on before. 
If parties are interested in further attempts at dispute resolution, please consider starting a WP:Request for comment, in which wider community opinion is sought, or consider contacting the WP:Mediation cabal. Both of these options are still technically informal, but may work better than one inexperienced admin (me) trying to mediate things. They are also usually, but not always, considered needed before formal WP:arbitration begins. AlexiusHoratius 05:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotected 

message: :For expediency, how about this: we cannot scurry away from the fact that Kurth is disgraced, but his work must be mentioned. Especially if it is all a hoax and fraud as he wrote it in 1983. So, how about you put a thoroughly discredited line from his book, then back it up with what Massie says about Anna in Nicholas and Alexandra? Though it is the beginning of the 1960s, it's almost as if Massie were foreseeing someone like Kurth. I have my copy, can't recall the edition, but I can give you all that and page number. Now as I say, we put those two things together, maybe one other thing, and POOF!!--no more Peter bloody Kurth and no more arguing about his role in this. It's truth and has to go in the information someplace; it is as factual as the DNA proof. Boy, you people are going to get me into trouble....75.21.109.14 (talk) 03:07, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Stupid. Just plain stupid waste of space. Who said you "used" Massie before? What I'm saying is Massie describes the pathetic and obvious falsehood of Anna's claim. He's very sharp about it, and to-the-purpose. THIS is an excellent source contra Kurth! Can you honestly not understand what I'm saying? And as I wrote, I agree with you in details and that is why I don't bother with Rathlef or Botkin here. If you can figure the clean way of inserting them to the purpose, then do it. They are of great value in the case, but then you go wild for 15 paragraphs about "Rathlef this, Botkin that," and we need BREVITY! We need hard sources and we need to blow past Kurth once we've shown he was a fraud and was in on it all along!75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

text: finnegan, put a damned reliable source to back up that statement or stop wasting our time--how many times have you stated this here, a couple dozen times?? We already know Kurth is probably fiction... that's the best we can say right now with no sources. Is your repetitive statement something you consider cold-hard fact? FIND A RELIABLE SOURCE and put it in the article!75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

text: See, this is why the article will never be a proper encyclopedic entry. No one wants concensus, no one wants a proper article. Just keep arguing, just keep arguing. No one here even knows what a reliable source is. aggie says "...when you investigate the sources..." then she provides NONE, or rambles them into incoherence. This is an encyclopedic entry, not a Supreme Court oral argument!75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  OK, a thought 

message: Here is one of what could be literally hundreds of examples of why most of Kurth's book, using Rathlef and Botkin as sources, are no longer credible to use in a factual article now that we know AA was not AN. Of course, the AA supporters would like for you to leave in both 'sides' and, as one put it, 'let the readers make up their own minds', but I disagree. This is not a game or a personal website, this is a worldwide encyclopedia, used by many people as a source of information for those who need the straight up facts. Would you 'let the readers make up their own minds' if Napoleon lost at Waterloo, or other things in history? No, of course not, you should only tell what is factual and proven and leave no room for speculation and fantasy.
Onto the example, Kurth's book (paperback) p.76:
(Here, from Rathlef's notes, Rathlef is trying to help "Anastasia" remember the name of her dog)
Harriet Rathlef:"What was he called, do you remember?"
Anastasia dragged her hand across her forehead, as if she were trying to hold her head in place. "No, I cannot find the name, I cannot."
HR: "Was he called Jackie?"
AA: "No, it was different."
HR: "Try to think, if it is correct, I will tell you."
Rathlef had the impression that Anastasia's thoughts were literally ripping across her brow: "I have seldom been able to observe so cleary the changing expressions of a face..she shut her eyes, the lids fluttering nervously, the face is working..the whole face is in tension." Then the name flew out: "Jemmy!"
"Yes, it was called Jemmy!"
AA: "You are so good to me, so I can think better, and suddenly a lot comes back that was not clear."
on the next page, 77, Rathlef asks her:
"Were you brought straight from Tsarskoe to Ekaterinburg?"
AA: "No, we were someplace else first, but what was it called.." she strokes her forehead, wants to say a name, then she stops. "Everything has gotten lost, I do not find the word, I knew it once." She said in despair.
Rathlef: "Leave it, Anastasia, it's not important."
"Tobolsk!" she says suddenly, sitting up straight and looking at me like a child who wants to be praised."
(on a side note, we can see here that Rathlef apparently has a lot of info on the family available in order to tell if "Anastasia" is right or wrong about things- and since we know for sure she was not Anastasia, it appears highly likely that Rathlef was using such things to 'help' AA with her 'memories', and that this was quite probably intentional, making Rathlef part of the fraud!)
Okay, now can we see the reasons why this is not a valid source?
:[I have cut into aggie's rant because I can see why aggie is not a reliable source. You're presenting what LOOKS like original research. Also from a point of view. Do those terms sound familiar? Get sources in line, and stop wasting everyone's time with this speculative garbage!, Now back to aggie's commercial:75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, to hell with Trusilver who is GONE from here, and stop trying to lay down trails of endless speculative paragraphs. This smacks of your personal and original research!! PUT SOME RELIABLE SOURCES IN!!!!75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I have to agree. No sources, then Chat-the-Black-Cat gets to fire them right back at you aggie! Get the sources and put them to good use!75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Aggie, this is also not the Aggiebean discussion Forum or the I-Know-Why-Kurth's-Book-is-False Forum! Can't you people understand anything?! Do you really think you're helping here by putting your simple views of Kurth's book in the posts? Put reliable sources.75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Wait just a minute... I'm sorry how bad this is going to look, but I DID NOT WRITE THE ABOVE REMARK. I have never said anyone here has simple views of Kurth's book, and I'm reporting this incident to the admin. It escapes me how someone took the IP address, but I repeat I DI NOT write that post above, and this monkeying around will stop.75.21.124.148 (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

text: AGGIEBEAN, I DID NOT WRITE THE ABOVE RIPOSTES. I DO NOT CONDUCT MY POSTS THAT WAY. I'M CC'ING ALL THIS TO THE ADMIN. YOU, WHOMEVER YOU ARE TRYING TO SET ME UP, YOU'RE IN TROUBLE. I CAN'T TELL HOW IN THE WORLD IT IS MADE TO LOOK LIKE MY IP, BUT I'M REPORTING AND THAT IS IT. I'M NOT PLAYING THE INSULT GAME AGAIN.75.21.124.148 (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

text: And may I humbly jump in and ask aggiebean to stop making this a Trusilver the Great memorial-page? He made a good point, let's work with the advice he gave about sources, and stop quoting him like he's the Qu'uran. Trusilver is either going or gone, and he was never the ultimate authority here. AND YOU, CHAT!! CUT THE CRAP WITH AGGIEBEAN OR I'LL BE GETTING AT YOU NEXT! The last thing I need is for these kooks to think you're me, which they already do. You have not helped a hell of a lot with the past troubles, don't cause new ones! And lastly, will you people get on with it, stop this niggling and find the sources to discredit Kurth so we can pitch this out the window. In an AAM entry, WHO CARES about this nit-picking?? IT'S AN ENCYCLOPEDIA, ask finnegan, he'll tell you!75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

text: ChatNoir, if you are accusing, don't waste time doing it here and derailing us... and that goes for everyone. Chat, if you have been vandalized, go through the Channels, though they be choked with filth and excrement. Do it right, let people see YOU trying to play a fair game for a change!75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: THIS IS THE REAL ME, AND I SUSPECT THAT IF IT ISN'T ONE USER IN PARTICULAR HERE, THEN IT IS ANOTHER. SOMEONE IS USING MY IP AS A SOCK PUPPET. BUT YOU'LL BE CAUGHT OUT VERY QUICKLY, BECAUSE MY IP FLUCTUATES UNPREDICTABLY, AND THE MODS KNOW THAT.75.21.124.148 (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Example of discredited sources

message: :WHOA!! Can we put the air brakes on here a minute?? You people want an anti-PK page, not a proper scholarly encyclopedic entry about Anna Anderson Manahan. Well, fine, do it. Make an anti-PK page! He deserves the discreditation, you keep claiming, so make a page about him! THIS page is about Anna Anderson Manahan. I cannot believe finnegan still swims in this fantasy that anyone wants Kurth "fairly" included. No one has ever said to be fair to Kurth himself or anything other than treating his book in the year and context it was written.
:What has been the good constant theme here is TRUTH, and it has to be IN BRIEF and to the point, not an aggie-rant, not an anti-Kurth rant that passes itself off as an entry. Everyone and anyone can read those facts in any related material--stop wasting a hundred paragraphs to yap about bloody Botkin! The world knows the name of Anna, they know Peter Kurth, but even interested subjects will say, "Who the hell is Botkin and who cares?"--let's stick to the good, simple outline of the truth you and finnegan were onto yesterday/day before.
:Aside from ChatNoir, and he does have a fair point, I thought we HAD the concensus about Kurth and his frauduent posture... but I saw something here, AGGIE, and that is you either present clear and SHORT citations or pack it up!! Your 1,000-word posts aren't the equvalent of a reliable source. This article must present reliable sources proving Kurth's fraud and lies. You cannot get away with saying, "He lied all along, I can tell," or "I can prove it, look at this silly quote." It's not for you or me to do this: RELIABLE SOURCES! And the same goes for ChatNoir, because so many people feel Kurth's book is a fraud in its entirety. Time to start investigating for the sources that will prove that or at least support the charge that PK was a fraud all along.
:Otherwise, people, you cannot keep saying that just because you suspect it or think you can prove it. You have to cite sources, you know these rules! Otherwise, guess what? You end up looking like the fools and Peter Kurth ends up looking like he's untouchable. Do you want that?--I didn't think so. Therefore, get the reliable sources or get off the hayride. Doesn't ANYBODY here pay attention to the admin's advice?
:My understanding is there is a question about Vorres. That can be addressed, and should be addressed. It strikes me there are lots of Vorres-lovers out there, but I've seen questions raised about his work. I don't study it, and I wish I could. My point is that when you lean on Kurth you must also lean on any other cheaters/agendizers. WITH RELIABLE SOURCES.
:You know something, I don't think anybody here wants this thing to be finished, or to be done well.75.21.124.148 (talk) 21:56, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's that simple, write it in the entry! And BACK IT UP or you're doing no better than other unsourced opinions. I never read Vorres, so I defer to those who know his work.75.21.124.148 (talk) 00:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  When is enough going to be enough? 

message: :Know what else? I just looked at that horrid 17-page slop of an entry. Could someone at least write it at an adult level? My 11-year-old nephew showed me an essay he was proud to have written. It read far better and more maturely than the Anna page. This fact led me to wonder if any of you actually have teenaged children, or are you teenaged children? Are you genuinely proud of the contributions to that entry?!75.21.124.148 (talk) 22:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As stated, I will not dignify the above with a reply. These aren't rants and it is clear to see that fact. Am I ranting now? Some will say "YES".75.21.124.148 (talk) 00:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  English 101 for all the world to see (NOT) 

message: ::Still here because you are still here, aggiebean--or better put, I'm still here for the same reason you are. Why are you still here if you won't write the thing? What possible use are you? You and finn have already killed the consensus I THOUGHT had been reached. Bookworm is the same way: petrified of you and finn, too scared to try to post anymore, let alone write anything. Good enough?75.21.124.148 (talk) 07:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: why I'm still here?

message: ::Please stop asking why I "keep saying goodbye". Yes, you and finn disgusted and abused me successfully so often that I had said goodbye, but I haven't said any such thing lately. In fact I'm saying, "Hello, let's fix this mess of an entry and get it done right." Why are you still here, and what exactly are you saying? You wish to dictate this entry precisely, but you won't write any of it? I'd suggest you learn how a correct encyclopedic entry is presented and write your information using that.75.21.124.148 (talk) 07:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: forgot to add...

message: You will have seen the bloodbath at the admins' notification page concerning the abuses and hounding, occurring at Talk:Anna Anderson. "Alexius Horatius" has referred this to you. I am here to call to your attention the need for either moderation, arbitration or someone to step in, review all facts and delete Anna Anderson as it presently stands. Since a consensus was nearly reached there, two particular troublemakers began the insults and wikishouting all over again: aggiebean and finneganw. Soon enough you will be aware of my identity. Please help that mess! That is all I have to say.75.21.124.148 (talk) 12:43, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Anna Anderson concerns brought to your attention

message: ::I like that move that was just performed. THAT will help this article for sure!!07:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: wow