Talk:United States Electoral College/Archive 5

message: Although I have great respect for the original author of this section (Pgva), I thought that this should be removed because it is not a proposal with much popular or political following.  All of the reforms suggested are unlikely to take place, but at least there are people would favor things like a direct vote and the Maine-Nebraska method.
====Squeezing a direct popular election out of the current system====
A popular election could occur without amending the constitution. If a sufficient number of states chose their electors by national popular vote rather than state popular vote, then a national popular vote would occur in practice. For example, the eleven largest states, controlling over 270 electoral votes among them, could guarantee that the presidency always goes to the winner of the national popular vote, merely by changing state election law. Constitutional objections to a state choosing its electors by national popular vote include that doing so would create an interstate compact without the consent of Congress (which is unconstitutional) and that no state may allow other states to choose its electors.
-- (unsigned post by Dinopup at 00:16, 1 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Squeezing Pop Vote

message: A popular election could occur without amending the constitution. If a sufficient number of states chose their electors by national popular vote rather than state popular vote, then a national popular vote would occur in practice. For example, the eleven largest states, controlling over 270 electoral votes among them, could guarantee that the presidency always goes to the winner of the national popular vote, merely by changing state election law. Constitutional objections to a state choosing its electors by national popular vote include that doing so would create an interstate compact without the consent of Congress (which is unconstitutional) and that no state may allow other states to choose its electors.
</blockquote>
-- (unsigned post by Dinopup at 00:16, 1 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Squeezing a direct popular election out of the current system

message: The arguments you present are not compelling.  I work in politics and I had never heard of the "drop 2" proposal before reading it in this article.  If you think squeezing the popular vote is too complicated for the average voter to understand, imagine the blank stares you'd get when discussing a drop 2 appportionment.  Additionally, I have read the Constitution and none of the sections pertaining to the selection of electors would seem to prohibit a state from selecting its electors based upon the electoral results of another state [i.e. I suspect it would be illegal for Vermont to cede to New Hampshire the right to choose its electors, but I can find nothing in the language of the Constitution that would prevent Vermont from basing its appointment of electors based upon the results of the election in New hampshire--hell, the Constitution doesn't nessiscarily prohibit a state from selecting its electors based on a coin toss].  Beyond the fact that if a number of individual states pass laws awarding their votes to the winner of the national vote, would not seem to be an interstate compact--and that there is a very good chance the Supreme Court would deem it a political question and thus decline to hear it.  Finally, even if it is an interstate compact, who is to say that Congress would not assent to it?  51 Senators and 218 Congresspersons would be far more likely to approve a drastic alteration to the manner of elections  than would 67 Senators, 290 Congresspersons, and the legislatures of 38.  
:Congress has been ruled 'hands-off' in any control over state's laws about choosing electors long ago in a round of decisions by the Supreme Court (I'm sure it is mentioned in this discussion or article somewhere because I remember looking it up and pasting in the case names, dates, and summaries).  So, the federal constitution has little to do with it.
:I will get to the primary problem with this 'squeezing a popular vote' in a moment.  I just want to point out that state's constitutions govern how electors are chosen.  There are many differences between the states.  No state allows the citizens of that state to be completely ignored.  In some way, their vote is a primary factor in choosing the electors.  Congress did not force this upon the states.  The people forced it on their own state governments.  South Carolina was the last state to take the popular state vote into consideration - before that, it was just the state representatives who chose electors.  The point - the people of the state help forge laws for their own state.
:Now, the concept of having a state choose the electors based on a national popular vote is a great idea if humans weren't involved.  It is not reasonable in any way to think that a state will send it electors that oppose their own state's popular vote.  For example, Washingtion DC has been voting around 80% Democrat since I've been watching the elections.  There would have been riots if the electors sent to vote were going to vote for a Republican just because the Republican got more national votes than the Democrat.  There has been riots for far less.  Some of the worst have been caused by giving people what they want (look at the riots following each equal rights bill passed by Johnson).
:The only way to get a popular vote is to actually have a popular vote.  Trusting the states to do it one by one is the same as trusting them to get out of the 19th century and adopt the metric system. So, this idea of squeezing out a popular vote is not a realistic option. Kainaw 1 July 2005 01:50 (UTC)
As the author of the disputed section, I can appreciate the arguments against including it in the article, but remain somewhat troubled by its removal. The principle reason I added it was to disprove the widely-held belief that a federal constitutional amendment is required to achieve a popular vote. Enlightenment begins by describing an alternative, something for which Wiki seems ideally suited. Efforts to distinguish this proposal from those requiring constitutional amendment on the basis of likelihood of enactment seem unwarranted - all are pretty unlikely. Even so, certain features favor this proposal on those grounds: the 11 largest states, acting in self-interest, may adopt this proposal without the consent of D.C. or the smaller states, whereas a constitutional amendment requires some small states to concur contrary to their interests; whereas an amendment would be revolutionary, the large-state proposal is evolutionary. Certainly it has no less a meaningful political following than proposals such as "drop two", "weighted direct voting" or "popular vote bonus method". In my view, the evident bias preferring those as-unlikely alternatives to this one is neither the proper standard by which to select material nor consistent with the principle of disseminating information on which Wiki is based. --Pgva 08:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I obviously wasn't clear in the purpose of my comment.  I wanted to make two points: 1) I wanted to reinforce the idea that it is currently unconstitutional for the federal government to step in and force states to choose electors by their rules.  2) Point out that the primary problem has to do with trust between the states.  Logistically, it is very simple for a state to choose electors based on popular vote - but they have to trust other states to do the same.  I did not intend my comments to be read as "this is unlikely, so abandon it".  I intended it to be "here is the primary problem that I see.  The section should focus on solutions to this problem since the rest of it is simple".  The end just my opinion - the only way to have a truly popular vote is to have a truly popular vote.  I don't trust politicians to agree to do anything that isn't their best interest. Kainaw 17:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

text: That suggests yet another advantage. For example, with every precinct being able to influence the result of a close tally, the incentive for abuse and manipulation could cause widespread corruption or even major instability: imagine the chaos of Florida 2000 multiplied nationwide. Without predicting such an outcome, still we must admit the possibility of unintended consequences. In contrast to a constitutional amendment, under a state-based approach the responsible legislatures could simply exercise their freedom under Article II and repeal the plan should deleterious effects result. --Pgva 09:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: It is obvious that you did not read the article.  The electors' votes are based on your vote.  If you are not in the plurality, then they don't side with you.  That doesn't mean your vote doesn't count.  It was counted.  There just wasn't enough people voting with you. --Kainaw (talk) 14:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I am adding squeezing the back to the article

message: Help !!!  I think that the start of the article is wrong, the people don’t directly elect the representative to the electoral college !!!  I understand that the representatives are designated after Election Day, but I don’t know exactly the mechanism. I remember that in Florida elections years ago was also possible the Florida electors can be designated by the Florida parliament.... please, if somebody has more knowledge about this, make the article more exact!!!
:(Prepping an early morning cranky reply...) You obviously didn't read the article.  In most states, the people do directly elect the representative to the electoral college.  In fact, the electors' names appear on some ballots.  As for the Florida fiasco - parliment didn't just randomly pick some electors.  There were Republican and Democrat groups.  They ruled that the people elected the Republican group.  As for how states choose their electors - the article clearly states that it is a state-by-state process.  Remember, the United States is a Republic, not a Democracy.  The states have their own laws to protect themselves - including how they choose their electors.  In fact, South Carolina used to have the state government elect the electors, ignoring the people (who were considered too uneducated to vote - therefore a danger to themselves.  But, after they were allowed to vote, they elected Strom Thurmond over and over - so, make your own decision there.) Kainaw 13:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Help

message: "If it had been successful, it would have ended Colorado's status as a swing state.  Instead of candidates vying for all nine of Colorado's votes, they would be going for one, assuming the most likely outcome of a 5-4 split one way or the other.  However, it is unclear if this amendment would have been upheld as constitutional by the state supreme court (due to its post-ex-facto nature), in any case."  The issue here is *SUCCESSFUL*.  This is due to the post-ex-facto nature of the amendment.  It is entirely possible that it could never have been implemented.  What do we mean by success?  If we are using this hypothetical as an example, I think it is important that we discuss why it quite possibly always will be hypothetical. Dobbs
:I'm very confused by your addition to the article.  Wasn't the likely legal challenge to the amendment based on the fact that it would have taken effect the same day it was passed and been used to allocate electors chosen the same day?  So if it had passed and been challenged on thse grounds, it might not have gone into effect for 2004, but could have been in effect for 2008.  Or am I missing something? TMS63112 18:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hate to jump into the discussion at such a late date, but I'd just like to point out a basic fact concerning the concept of ex post facto legislation.  Traditionally the concept of ex post facto is held applicable strictly to the criminal side of the law (i.e. you should never be tried for and convicted of a crime that was not a crime when the act was committed).  Only a very strict interpretation of ex post facto would ever apply this concept to both criminal and civil law.  I'm sure if you looked any handful of civil laws that don't contain punitive provisions, you'd be able to see that plenty have retroactive application clauses (e.g. pay raises for the military).  The other point I'd like to make is that the passage of the amendment in CO would not have been ex post facto, conceptually speaking, for the simple fact that the amendment would have taken effect before the electors met and voted.  The amendment would have only been ex post facto had it sought to go back and change the votes already cast by the electors for that election cycle (votes which as of the date of the 2004 general election, when the amendment would have commenced operation, had not yet been cast).  So long as the law was changed before the electors vote and so long as electors were appointed based on the results of the immediately preceeding general election, then no ex post facto application of the law would have existed. The fact that the amendment stated a desire to apply retroactively was simply a misunderstanding of the amendment's author. Foofighter20x 08:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Colorado

message: I think there's a slight problem with this paragraph: 
It is unclear what would happen if a President has been selected but the Senate remains deadlocked on a Vice President past Inauguration Day. On the one hand, the Twelfth Amendment specifies that the Senate should choose the Vice President, and it does not admit of a time limit on the selection process. On the other hand, the Twenty-Fifth Amendment allows the President to nominate a Vice President if a vacancy should occur.
It is true that the Senate should choose the Vice President, and has no time limit on such a nomination. However, Amendment 25 section 2 says "Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.
As it reads right now, the Wiki article seems to indicate that the President can unilaterally appoint a VP without any consent. Any qualms with changing this?
:If you feel the article is unclear, feel free to edit it. The Presidential appointment of a VP still requires confirmation of both the Senate and the House, so it would hardly be unilateral.  The President would have the flexibility to pick someone other than the top two electoral college finishers though, so he/she can pick someone that Congress is willing to  approve.  NoSeptember talk 15:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appointment of Vice President 

message: Why is it said that a state would feel it would be in its best interest to abstain from the Maine/Nebraska system?  I don't understand.  So they could speak with one voice?
MondoManDevout 10:54, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is sort of a "one voice" issue.  For example, if a state has 6 electors and it gets split 3 and 3, then that state doesn't matter.  But, by giving all 6 to one candidate, they do matter.  Small states have less of a chance of splitting the vote.  From my limited knowledge, Missouri is the most prominent state that is assured to split with two heavily democratic large cities and plenty of heavily republican rural areas.  As a state gets larger, the chance of a split gets worse.  Look at California.  Stereotypically, the whites and blacks vote democrat.  The hispanics and asians vote republican.  California would split just about in the middle and have no real effect on the overall election.  But, there are those who argue that it should do so.  Just because a few more democrats get to the polls while the republicans are at work, why should the entire state go democrat? (sorry, but I had to throw in the implication that the hispanics and asians are doing all the work in CA - I've spent too much time in LA and Palm Springs.) --Kainaw (talk) 03:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, another thing is that it would never get past voters with the majority acting rationally. Say it was proposed in New York. Democrats should rationally oppose it, considering that a Republican would not likely win the state without a Reagan style landslide that would mean it wouldn't make a diffence anyway, and in any other case, give some electoral votes to Republicans. Republicans should support it for the same reason. Because Democrats make up a majority in the state, such a proposal should fail. The same thing would happen in a safe Republican state such as a Texas. For swing states, neither side would have something to lose in that way, but they do lose their swing state power that makes their electoral blocs desirable. -Nichlemn 07:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, hispanics tend to be catholic... Blacks tend to be poor, and thus benefit from the social programs more than most races. Otherwise, I'm not sure. KenBest 17:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uh, whites are pretty split across the spectrum of "whiteness"; some dems some repubs. — BQZip01 — talk 17:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: A few seconds on Google will show you that it is not true about hispanics and asians. You'd be hard pressed to find ANY group that does not lean significantly Democrat, other than White Male Protestant goes Republican. Blacks and Muslims lean Dem about 8-to-1, Jews and gay/lesbian by about 3-to-1, nonreligious and arabs by about 2-to-1, hispanics asians and women by about 55%-to-45%. Some of those minorities are deeply pro-life anti-gay-marriage and otherwise socially conservative, and still they generally consider it it in their best interest to go Democrat. The Democratic party is made up of a much more racially religiously and socially diverse population, and is more accepting and supportive of racial religious and social diversity. The Republican party.... not so much. Alsee 08:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I don't follow the article's following contention under Maine/Nebraska. . . 

message: I've done a bit to tone-down some of the "opposition camp" tone of this article, but the article needs some serious reworking to get rid of the overwhelming anti-EC POV...a POV that's built into the very structure of the article.  I realize that many people regard WP as ruled by "commie leftists", but the fact that this has become a FA in its current incarnation is the first time I've actually been forced, somewhat unwillingly, to conclude that there is, perhaps, good reason for that belief.  This is, in a word, appalling...  Tomertalk 07:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ghastly problems with this article 

message: Is it not traditional for articles of the Constitution of the United States to be numbered according to Roman numerals?
Such as: Article II as opposed to Article Two.
:You worded that interestingly, but either way's fine. "Article II", "Article Two", and "The Second Article" are all acceptable. -- R'son-W (speak to me/breathe) 21:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Nomenclature

message: If the states would each lose 2 electoral votes, why wouldn't D.C.?  128.194.23.58 04:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Schlesinger's Proposal

message: The reform proposal making waves at the moment should probably be added.  The "National Popular Vote" movement would see the law changed by state legislatures to give all of their electors to the winner of the national popular vote, with the proviso that the provision take effect only when and if enough states have enacted equivalent legislation such that a majority of the electors are chosen this way.  This proposal has been making progress in Colorado and California recently.  --tilthouse 18:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: National Popular Vote

message: :"The Federalist Papers suggest that it was commonly assumed by the Founding Fathers that most Presidents would be selected by the House of Representatives, and the order of the articles of Constitution, in which Congress is established in Article I and the presidency in Article II, supports this view."
That strikes me as a total non sequitur. The order of the articles may indeed suggest legislative supremacy, but I do not see how that supports the idea that the Founders assumed that the Electoral College would mostly fail to select the winner. Such an outcome is certainly agreeable with the concept of legislative supremacy, but I do not see that as being sufficiently relevant to mention. Any thoughts? --Pgva 08:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non Sequitur?

message: A bill has passed a house committee to add 2 seats to the House or Representatives.. One seat would go to Wash DC, giving it a full voting House member. The other seat would be available as a normal congessional seat, and currently would go to Utah. This bill would give Utah 1 additional Electoral vote, and would increase the total number of votes to 539. (So 270 would still be needed to win).
I think this should be added to the article, but I'll someone more familiar with the article to add it.
: I added pointers to the House bill and the constitutional amendment.  Plus I clarified (I hope) some of the wording.  Wikied 18:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Utah & DC changes 

message: I just added number of electors to "List of U.S. states by population", and linked it to this article. Would it also make sense to include the list of states by electors here? It would work just to use the format: 5 ElectorsNebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, West Virginiasamwaltz 12:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of States by Number of Electors

message: The current structure does not make much sense to me so I would like to propose reorganizing this article as follows. 
1 - How The Electoral College Works.
2 - History.
3 - Controversy.
4 - Reform Proposals.
Please offer your opinion on this idea. --Pgva 19:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely needs something.  Looking through the current section (cryptically named) Electoral Votes it seems that it's a mix of explanation of the system, arguments in favor and arguments opposed.  So I like your idea - I might flesh it out like so:
# How the Electoral College works.
#* How states currently assign electors
#*; Maine, Nebraska method goes here - TN in 1790 does not
#* What those electors then do
#*; faithless electors would go in here
# History
#* Historical precedent for indirect election
#* Original Plan
#* Changes in the system since then
#*; including trivia like TN in 1790
# Controversy over the current system
#* Arguments against the current system
#* Arguments for the current system
# Reform proposals
#* Those that have been suggested and dropped, or which haven't caught on
#* Those which are actively being pursued.
Juneappal 20:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, everyone who has weighed in on this matter seems to be in total concurrence (and they all seem to be talented, clever editors) so I think we should go ahead and start in the manner you describe.  I would be happy to take on the initial re-factoring, but I may not have a chance till Monday afternoon (Pacific Time)  If you want to do it, just let me know before then, so we aren't duplicating each other's work.Juneappal 01:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reorganize Article?

message: Well, by gum, I just went ahead and did it.  A few thoughts:
* I commented out two long paragraphs that were duplicated elsewhere.  One was a more complicated explanation of apportionment, the other covered everything from faithless electors to the Maine Method.  If you are going to edit those two sections, take a look at what I left in hiding.
* There is still a LOT of repetition.  My basic method was sorting existing paragraphs based upon the principle idea they contained.  Now comes the part where we strip out some of the repetition.....
* Are there no other arguments in support of the current system?
* I am pleased with where I got to today, but I am done for now.  I would be delighted if someone took what I have done and tweaked it even more.  This is not anywhere close to perfect - just much better than it was before.
Cheers - 
Juneappal 19:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work. There is no hurry to add content; what matters is that the structure is set up. Contributors should now stick with this structure and avoid further re-organizations. --Pgva 17:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Reorganized

message: In the section arguing against the EC, every point is followed up by a rebuttal.  No such rebuttals exist on the arguments for the EC. --Jfruh (talk) 21:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point.  I thought that might be because the arguments for the EC are laughably stupid and incomplete, but that's just me.  We should add rebuttals to the arguments that we are going to add.  Speaking of which, I now have another free hour.--BCSWowbagger 00:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I would argue against adding rebuttals to anything, and removing the rebuttals already there.  The heading of the section is "Arguments against..." There's no need to present it as a dialog.  Fully formed arguments in favor can be moved down to the "Arguments in favor of..." --Jfruh (talk) 01:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Further, I think it would be appropriate to remove completely any arguments for or against for which we can't come up with citations.  I disagree with BSCWowbagger on some of the points he added.  If this was a high-school civics class, I would love to engage him on the topics, but it isn't, and my opinion on the topic really doesn't matter.  Both the "for" and "against" sections are riddled with weasel - if we clean that up, the need for rebuttals may be obviated.Juneappal 03:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both fair points.  Still being a newb, I'll go with whatever the rest of you decide.  However, I think we can definitely come up with citations for most of the arguments listed with a little more research, which is my first priority next chance I get. --BCSWowbagger 05:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arguments against section: NPOV? 

message: I just linked this entry to the German page "Wahlmann" (Elector), which also links back to the English page "Elector". The German page has not split the US Electoral College from the general page on Electors, and as such, has extensive info pertaining to the US system in its general section. I'll be checkingout a few other languages soonish. samwaltz 16:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Links to other language Wikis

message: One of the changes in the modes of electoral selection took place in the twentieth century but has been generally overlooked. Statewide selection of Electors by popular vote, which was called the "General Ticket" in the early nineteenth century, was different from the method in use today. Until the early twentieth century, the ballot showed the names of the Electors. For example, in order to vote for James Monroe, a voter had to vote for one or more of his candidates for Elector. 
In the early twentieth century, a new mode of electoral selection emerged. Instead of casting votes for individual Electors, the choice was consolidated into a choice among slates of Electors. This is called the "short ballot." Chronicler3 14:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Methods of choosing Electors 

message: This article is way overpopulated by subheadings concerning the USEC debate.  I propose we split that section off and completely re-research and rewrite it to get an article called Debate over the United States Electoral College.  What's there now is pretty poorly cited, poorly argued, not *incrediblly* relevant to the basic article... how about a new article exclusively discussing the debate over it throughout American history and specifically in the modern day?
::Present the facts of the EC on one page, the debate on another? As the Guinness beer commercials in the US say, "Brilliant!" SkipperClipper 00:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Split 

message: In the section entitled "Apportionment of Electors" says "The least populous state (currently, Wyoming - which has fewer people than Washington, D.C.) has 3 Electors, so the District cannot have more than 3 Electors." This strikes me as a tip of the hat to advocates for more electoral votes to D.C. since the article doesn't mention that Houston, Texas, New York City, Los Angeles, California and many other municipalities have vastly larger populations than Washington D.C. and NO electoral votes.
*This comment, though inserted unclearly relates to a specific provision that allots electoral votes to DC, specifically mandating that it may not have more electoral votes than the state with the fewest votes.  If I'm not mistaken, population allotment would give the District (remember, it's not in any state) four or five electoral votes. Clarkefreak ∞ 03:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Advocacy for More Washington electoral votes