Talk:Atheism/Archive 8

message: Weak or strong atheists may be (and in fact are) members of the international spiritual, charitable, and cultural association called Subud.  At the minimum, Subud requires one to be open to insight from a source that is not explicitly known.  Religious persons in Subud call this source "God" or a "creative energy in the universe" while atheistic or agnostic persons refer to it as coming into contact with intuition or the unconscious.  E.g., there are various therapies such as Primal Therapy (see http://www.primalinstitute.com/theory.html) that are cathartic and energizing (like the Subud meditation exercise is), yet do not require belief in God. Aliman 21:47, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not mean to make any statement regarding subud, which I am unfamiliar with. I was rather pointing out that an atheist is not spiritual in nature, but rather that atheism precludes spirituality. Sam [Spade] 22:13, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: Although an atheist may well be able to follow Subud , I have never heard of he term, and it appears to be religious/spiritual, and uses the same incomprehensible gobledegook.  It does however seem to be broadly compatible with humanism, though perhaps not secular humanism.  Anyway, it has no place in this article. Dunc_Harris|☺ 22:43, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Added "Subud"

message: I deleted the link to Subud.  I see a difference between the words "religious" and "spiritual" that some people (at least Sam Spade and Dunc Harris, and probably many others) do not accept.  To some, the words "religious" and "spiritual" have the same meaning.  This is fine, b/c in some coarse sense they are in fact the same.  In a more nuanced sense, however, there are slight but critical differences.  However, it is not my purpose to argue that specific point right now.  Rather, I want to point out that b/c this distinction isn't accepted, that the article got edited, and now the article is in error.  That is, when I originally edited, the wording looked like this:  <...religious or spiritual organizations which allow atheists as members. Some examples are the Naturalistic Pantheists, Brianism, Subud...>  However, after more edits, the article now looks like this:  <There are religious belief systems, including much of Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, Subud and Universism, which do not require belief in a deity.>  And, as I've said here, Subud has no beliefs, creed, dogma, nor any kind of religious tenets.  Thus I've deleted it-Subud is not a "religious belief system" as the article stated.  Subud may be "spiritual" in some sense (although it need not be), but it certainly is not overtly a "religious  belief system."  Aloha, Aliman 12:05, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted Subud

message: Sam Spade said a person cannot be both spiritual and atheist (i.e., atheism precludes spirituality).  Dunc Harris said that words used to describe Spirituality are incomprehensible gobledegook.  However, in order to be consistent with these views, shouldn’t the entire section on “atheist religious organizations” in the Atheist article be deleted?  From your points of view such wording is unintelligible.  I submit to you both that you argue that atheism precludes spirituality, and if you are successful then we can delete that section of the Atheist article that mentions “atheist religious organizations.” Aliman 12:26, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: as far as I can tell the organizations listed don't require any sort of spirituality, much less Godliness from their members. Mentioning religious groups which accept atheists seems fine to me, so long as its accurate. Sam [Spade] 17:58, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: From Naturalistic Pantheism's intro: "Naturalistic Pantheism is a form of Pantheism which holds that the universe, although unconscious and non-sentient as a whole, is a meaningful focus for human spirituality." From the principles of the Unitarian Universalist Association: "Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations" and listed among the sources of the traditions they follow: "Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature" and "Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life." In general, see the definition of spirituality, which indicates spiritality as being a focus on personal experience and revelation as the way to true understanding of the universe but does not necessarily require any gods to be involved. It looks to me like atheism and spirituality are indeed compatible. Bryan 23:02, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well we don't agree, but does it really matter? It seems to read fine to me as it is now, and heck, including Subud (and what about that "self reliance" religion of N korea?) seems pretty harmless. If atheism precludes spirituality is an important question, but is not something the article narrative should be expressing an opinion on. Sam [Spade] 23:15, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking of Juche. Sam [Spade] 23:20, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: You said none of the organizations listed required any sort of spirituality in their members, I pointed out examples disproving that statement. It had nothing to do with the text of the article itself. Bryan 02:15, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Atheism precludes spirituality

message: First, Sam Spade said: "...Mentioning religious groups which accept atheists seems fine to me, so long as its accurate. Sam..."
Fine, and I agree.  However, there's a difference between the words "religious" and "spiritual."  Spirituality doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God nor anything transcendent, while religion usually does have elements of belief in God and/or belief in something transcendent. (From Spirituality: "...Others hold that spirituality is not religion, per se, but the active and vital connection to a force, power, or sense of the deep self.").  Given this aspect of the definition, it seems appropriate to mention Subud in the Atheist article because Subud does not require religious belief, and accepts atheists as members. Aliman 11:10, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Spirituality has everything to do with the transcendent, to suggest otherwise makes the term meaningless. Sam [Spade] 23:17, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: Spirituality refers to ones relationship with the trancendant. Taking this into account, the majority of your above statements are not relevant. Psychology does indeed have some relationship with spirituality, but this is not always the case. Look into Jung. I don't understand your statements regarding value. Sam [Spade] 23:24, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I think what he meant there was "the question of whether atheism precludes spirituality is important, but not something the article narrative should be expressing an opinion on." Bryan 15:53, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Bryan is correct. Sam [Spade] 23:26, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I don't mind you mentioning Subud, so long as what you mention is NPOV and factually accurate. Sam [Spade] 23:26, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: Ignore that length warning, it's just advisory. At some point when the discussion above gets old and obsolete enough it'll get moved into an /Archive page and the warning will go away. Bryan 15:53, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree w Bryan, the page needed archived, as all pages do when they near 32k. Sam [Spade] 23:26, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Further observations on "Atheism precludes spirituality" (APS)