Talk:Papal ban of Freemasonry/Archive 5

message: I'm adding a to do template so that editors can see the general direction in which the article is going and we can minimise the surprises.  This may calm down the editing wars. 
Do other editors think that this will be useful?
JASpencer 08:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds OK to me... the pessimist in me would not be surprised to find us arguing just as much over what should go into the "to do" list, but you may be right that such a list would calm things down.  It is worth a try. Blueboar 12:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course there will be some disagreement but the idea is to see what sort of stuff we can agree on, and perhaps make feelings known before anything starts up.  The real problem is that one editor is not arguing at all but simply deleting large areas without discussion. JASpencer 12:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Co-operation duly noted. JASpencer 13:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

text: So what? Am I in danger? Imacomp 13:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh? JASpencer 13:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly. That is what everyone else thinks, except you. Imacomp 13:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Like Blueboar "It is worth a try".  Your editing is becoming odder and odder. Happy Easter by the way. JASpencer 14:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Add this to the to do list, to add? Leo XIII awarded a gold medal  to a fashionable 19th century cocaine-laced wine called Vin Mariani. (Note Paolo Mantegazza a prominent Italian neurologist, physiologist and anthropologist, isolatied of cocaine from coca leaves and experimentally tested it on himself in 1859. Afterwards, he wrote a paper titled Sulle Virtù Igieniche e Medicinali della Coca e sugli Alimenti Nervosi in Generale ("On the hygienic and medicinal properties of coca and on nervous nourishment in general"). described the effect of cocaine on cognition.) Imacomp 21:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

text: A To Do box has been added at top of this Talk Page (I checked out some other articles that have such lists, and they keep them on the talk page and not in the article - this seems to make sense to me). Blueboar 17:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Blueboar it makes more sense.  JASpencer 19:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: To Do List

message: On a lighter note... check out the Rebecca Brown article ... I guess we fellow satanists had better stop all this in-fighting.  :>)  Blueboar 18:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI 

message: I have gotten a copy of Humanum Genus that was published by AASR SMJ together with Pike's reply and the Supreme Council's comments in one booklet.  I'll add in material about it once I get a chance to read it. MSJapan 02:45, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it possible to add this document to Wikisource?  JASpencer 09:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still trying to figure that out. It's a little bit of a gray area: the original dates from 1884 (which would make it public domain), but it was reprinted in 1962 with a new notice that it was to be given to those who received the 30th and above in order to understand that the issues between Pike and Leo XIII were stil unresolved (which means it's technically a new edition and therefore subject to copyright).  However, there is no copyright notice.  I may have to email somebody in SMJ to find out. MSJapan 13:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Humanum Genus 

message: I do not think that this section is disputed amymore. Tag removed. Ok? Imacomp 21:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholic Prohibition on Secret Societies

message: Is it time to remove the "Disputed Tag"? Imacomp 21:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me. The article still needs some work, but I don't think it needs the tag. Blueboar 01:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

text: OK. "POV" tag removed from article header Imacomp 17:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Links to Militant Protestantism - Section edited to reflect citations. Un-cited speculation deleted, as per Wiki protocols. FM welcomes catholic members. Imacomp 20:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Catholicism and Freemasonry, The total Article

message: I tend to agree with Imacomp that the "to do" list at the top of this page should go, as it is not being followed.  The same items have been listed for almost a month with no forward movement on them.  The point of a "to do" window is to remind people of tasks which need to be done to make the article better.  If no one does the tasks, it does not serve its purpose.  In this case, it was included by JASpencer as a list of things he wanted to do, but has not done (yet?).  Before deleting it, however, I do want to give him a chance to respond. Blueboar 01:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, it has been two days since Imacomp deleted the "to do", and a full day since I restored it.  Since JASpencer does not seem to be around to respond, I am going to cut the material, but leave the box for future use of editors (I still think it is a nice idea... just under used).  If anyone objects, they can always revert. Blueboar 12:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "To do" section 

message: I keep forgetting to do this every time I get the opportunity, so here it is (BTW, this is note 83 in the article where this is asked for).  Also for the citation, the ISBN on the book is 1930097387.
After the oath (which I have elided), it says:
Thrice Puissant Grand Master: "Rise and imitate me (He then stabs the skull crowned with a tiara and says:) Down with imposture, down with crime."  (260) (This seems to be the "moral" of the degree, and the phrase does appear a few more times.)
A similar thing happens to "a skull wreathed with laurel" and "a skull surmounted with a regal crown" (261)
Later, on 286, there is trampling on a crown said to represent that of "Philip the Fair, King of France", and then here's the papal bit:
Thrice Puissant Grand Master: (Passing ovwer to the Tiara.) This represents the Tiara of the cruel and cowardly Pontiff, who sacrificed ot his ambition the illustrious order of those Knights Templars of whome we are the true successors.  A crown fo gold and precious stones ill befits the humble head of one who pretends to be successor, the Vicar, of Jesus of Nazareth.  It is therefore the crown of an imposter(sic), and it is in the name of him who said "neither be ye called Masters," that we trample it under our feet.
TPGM:(To candidate.) Are you disposed to do the same?
Candidate: I am. (Thrice Puissant Grand Master then throws the Tiara on the floor and tramples on it, the candidate and all the Knights also trample on it, when all the Knights brandishing their poniards exclaim:)
All: Down with imposture! (286)
and that's just about the end of the play. The TPGM has a few sentences and then closes.
MSJapan 21:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, MSJapan... I have amended the statement and the citation to reflect this information (removing Art deHoyos and directly citing Blanchard).  However, given this, I now wonder whether we should not consider deleting the Kadosh degree statement entirely (and possibly the entire Scottish Right section) as erronious.  Any comments? [[User:Blueb
oar|Blueboar]] 01:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is erroneous, to a point (due to ignorance of context, mostly, because it's clearly the people involved in the KT incidents they're talking about and not every Pope or King), but the problem is that that is what the whole criticism is based upon
.  Since deHoyos cites it, we can't really leave it out either.  I think that as long as sources are clarified, it should be fine.  TBH, a lot of the claims are erroneous when put back in their proper context, but in this article we're dealing with existence, not validity. MSJapan 03:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the Kadosh degrees exist (as a sequence of degrees dealing with the three ruffians after the murder of the builder etc) although the inclusion has to make clear the relationship between this ritual and those actually worked.  One of the challenging aspects is that when we consider the plethora of degrees and rituals worked across FM in the 18th and 19th Centuries with similar names etc then someone could extract something from a ritual long dead and claim it is Masonry.  The claim could be considered as correct but is meaningless without the caveat that it may never have been worked.ALR 07:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  At long last, the Blanchard citation!