Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/Archive 3

message: What on earth is there to prove that Turkey was pro-axis during WWII? Getting more and more tired of this bull****.68.105.255.76 07:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pro-Axis?

message: The title doesn't reflect the content. What is presented--probably ill-presented--here and is the history of conflicts and disputes between the two countries. In this sense it adopts a very strong POV that peaceful coexistence is at least difficult between the parties and that tension and clashes is the norm. I reverted the initial clause: Relations between Greece and Turkey have been marked by mutual hostility ever since Greece won its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1832 to the more factually accurate Relations between Greece and Turkey have been marked by alternating periods of mutual hostility and reconciliation ever since Greece won its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1832. Post-war Greek-Turkish are multifaceted and they don't solely revolve around negotiations on disputes but also include such things as economic relations (trade, investment flows), cultural exchanges, tourism, security cooperation. If we need an article on the history of Greek-turkish conflicts so far, then somebody will have to write a new one. In my opinion this article should be reserved for the current state of relations covering the various aspects of it and should avoid lengthy historical narratives. Official data and statistics would be very useful. Donnerstag 02:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this an article on the '''current''' Turkish-greek relations? 

message: A user brought this article to my attention. It appears that there are individual chunks of text in this article that copy from . That site appears to be the most legitimate, probably owner of copyright of the text. However, there is ongoing debate about that point. In the meantime, are there any editors of this article who can volunteer to scrub the text against the website linked above? Feco 22:39, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're really curious, the user pulled a few quotes from this article and put them on the copyvio page as part of a dispute involving a different page. However, I've located the original source document, and it looks like it's now public domain. So you don't have to worry about copyvio problems. Feco 02:51, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyvio Problems

message: Once again I have returned to this article to remove nationalist propaganda, this time Greek. I am finding it hard to decided whether childish Greek nationalist rhetoric is more tiresome than childish Turkish nationalist rhetoric, or vice versa. Hey guys, it's the 21st century. All this happened a looooong time ago. Why don't you all get over it? If you don't, I will continue to remove this stuff. Adam 03:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not the greatest, but far better. HawkeyE 07:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Propaganda

message: Adam Carr, does this sound netural to you? 
"The conquering Turks set the city on fire and massacred those Greeks and Armenians who were unable to escape by sea. Chrysostomos, the spiritual leader of the Orthodox Christians in Smyrna who refused to abandon the city, was dismembered by a mob in the streets. The American Consul in Smyrna, George Horton, gives a detailed and objective picture of the massacre in his book The Blight of Asia ( Indianapolis: Bobb and Merryl, 1925)."
Why do i seem the only one to find this very POV?
So far as I know that is what happened. I have removed allegations of a Turkish "holocaust" or "genocide" against the Greeks, but there is no doubt that there was a massacre of Greeks at Smyrna. I have tried to prevent both Greek and Turkish POV from contaminating this article. Adam 22:21, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There were indeed killings, but it is not as black and white as Greek POV makes out. In the book i have read it quotes sources who say the killings were mostly sporadic and not systematic of any kind. As it stands the article does not mention the scorched earth policy by Greece during their retreat which left most of the countryside devastaded. Infact in a documentary i saw on Ataturk it says the fire was a direct result of the scorched earth policy. The article also does not mention the brutality towards Turks under Greek occupation. In my edit which was reverted i tried to be as objective as possible, i used a section from Patrick Kinross's Ataturk rebirth of a nation which covers a chapter on the burning of Smyrna. The edit i placed was far more analytical than the current "The conquering Turks set the city on fire and massacred those Greeks and Armenians who were unable to escape by sea" --E.A 13:41, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Adam, I think as well that this wording is POV oriented, because it say it in a "this is what happened" tone. While I believe Smyrna was burned by the Turkish side, because it was witnessed, as well as because only the Greek and Armenian quarters were burned. As well as because the Turkish side changed it's version when chalenged accusing later the Armenians to have burned their own quarter. The most telling is how one of Ataturks close confident as well as another Turkish writer close to the Kemalist circle recognised it etc. But this is one thing, it is another to say something in an "this is what happened" tone. You should have presented this as something like: "It is said that the conquering Turks set the city on fire and massacred those Greeks and Armenians who were unable to escape by sea. Chrysostomos, the spiritual leader of the Orthodox Christians in Smyrna who refused to abandon the city, was allegdly dismembered by a mob in the streets. The American Consul in Smyrna, George Horton, gives a detailed picture of the events in his book The Blight of Asia ( Indianapolis: Bobb and Merryl, 1925)." I think such wordings would be closer to NPOV. Regards Fadix 18:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Attested facts according to whom? I have my source, you have yours. The fire of Smyrna is not as black and white as who invaded Poland. All we can do is write both accounts and say it is disputed, which is what i have done. --E.A 16:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't take me wrong,... I am convinced that the massacres and the fire did happen, I won't permit myself to be dragged in this fight E.A might push by relativizing the event and make of it a two directional massacre and burning. SMYRNA 1922: The Destruction of a City, Kent State U Press, 1988 (Dobkin, Marjorie Housepian), is a very convincing work providing countless of witnesses that have directly witnessed how and who put the fire, and there is no doubt for me for this,... as the accusations against the Armenians and the story of the petrolium was known to come to light just after the nationalist forces were unable to explain their first theses(Greeks having burned it). There is also the fact that one of Ataturks close confident actually wrote blamming the Turkish army for the fire. What I was asking you is to just present it as a position. BTW, the claim that Mango is not a Turk is not entirly true. He's born in Turkey etc. And is generally very much pro-Turkish and considered as an Armenian genocide revisionist. So the fact that he do accuse the fire on the Turkish side just means that this position is more supported, but this doesn't justify it as presenting as fact. Fadix 21:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAO Adam Carr 

message: My sources on this are Michael Llewellyn Smith, Ionian Vision: Greece in Asia Minor 1919-1922 (Allen Lane 1973), and Andrew Mango, Ataturk (John Murray 1999). Both these books are by professional historians, neither Greek nor Turkish, and Mango's biography is generally very friendly to Ataturk and Turkey generally. 
Both authors agree that the initial entry of Turkish troops into Smyrna (9 September 1922) was orderly and fairly peaceful. But on 13 September the Armenians, who hated and feared the Turks, resisted the occupation of the Armenian quarter. The Turks then began to loot and burn Armenian shops, starting a fire which destroyed the whole of the Armenian, Greek and "Frankish" (European) quarters. Both agree that there was large-scale murder of Armenian, and to a lesser extent Greek, civilians by Turkish troops. Both give a detailed description of the lynching of Archbishop Chrysostom, which was done on the orders of the Turkish commander Nureddin Pasha.
This is Llewellyn Smith's description of the murder of Chrysostom:
Adam 01:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources on Smyrna massacre

message: I'm a bit confused as to why you've completely eliminated the attrocities carried out by the Greek army, this is after all a article on Greco-Turkish relations, and to eliminate such an important part which explains the chaos once the army entered Smyrna is beyond me.
My source was Patrick Kinross's "Ataturk: Rebirth of a Nation" (1964) he is British and a very well respected historian on Ataturk, Turkey and the Ottoman empire. Sorry i dont have a scanner but i'll have to quote him
Greek acts during retreat:
"The retreat lasted a week. The Turkish forces hurried on towards the city, striving to overtake the Greeks before they could decimate all western Anatolia 'by fire and sword'. The cavalry followed close on the enemy's heels; the infantry, geared over the two hundred mules of winding roads between the plateau and the sea to pace of its ox-carts and mule trains, moved more slowly. In three days its main body contrive to march a hundred miles/ But it still failed to catch up with the enemy. Already most of the twons in its path were in ruins. One thrid of Ushak no longer existed. Alashehir was no more than a dark scorched cavity, defacing the hillside. Village after village had been reduced to an ashe-heap. Out of the eighteen thousand buildings in the historic holy city of Manisa, only five hundred remained
Everywhere the Greek troops, especially those from Anatolia, revenging themselves in desperation and in obedience to orders for generations of Ottoman oppresion and persecution, carried of Christian families that their quarters too might be burned and not a roof left for the advancing Turks. They tore up the railway between Smyrna and Aydin. They pillaged and destroyed and raped and butchered. 'They went to pieces altogether' as Rumbold recounted to Curzon on the basis of reports from his consul in Smyrna. It was 'a sickenong act of bestiality and barbarity'. There was little, he added, to choose between the two races, Greek and Turk. Permeating the atmosphere, as Turks advanced down the valleys, was the stench of unburied bodies, of charred human and animal flesh" p.318
On the Cause of the Fire:
"The internecine violcence led, more or less by accident, to the outbreak of a catastrophic fire. Its origins were never satsifactorily explained. Kemal maintained to Admiral Dumesnil that it had been deliberately planned by an Armenian incediary organization, and that before the arriva of the Turks speeches had been made in the churches, calling for the burning of the city as a sacred duty. Fuel for the purpose had been found in the houses of Armenian women, and several incendiaries had been arrested. Others accused the Turks themselves of deliberately starting the fire under the orders or at least witht the connivance of Nur-ed-Din Pasha, who had a reputation for fanaticism and cruelty.
More probably it started when the Turks, rounding up Armenians to confiscate their arms, besieged a band of them in a building in which they had taken refuge. Deciding to burn them out, they set it alight with pertrol, placing a cordon of sentries around to arrest or shoot them as they escaped. Meanwhile the Armenians stareted other fires nearby to divert the Turks from their main objective. The quarter was on the outskirts of the city. But a strong wind, for which they had not allowed, quickly carried the flames towards it. By the early evening several other quarters were on fire, and a thousand houses, built filimsily of lath and plaster, had been reduced to ashes. The flames were being spread by looters, and doubtless also by Turkish soldiers paying off scores. The fire brigade was powerless to cope with such conflagration, and at Ismet's headquartes the Turks alleged that its hose piepes had been severed. He himself chose to declare that the Greeks had planned to burn the city." p.324/325
On the Armenian and Greek populations:
The admiral then referred to the arrest and interment by Turks of all the able-bodied male Christian population, and their threatened deportation by the interior as indicated by Nur-ed-din. This had caused panich throughout the Greek and Armenian communities, and would create a bad impression abroad, as recent deportations from Samsun area had done. Kemal replied in a conciliator spirit. Nur-ed-din had spoken in military terms, at the moment of victory, concerned to prevent the passage of potential Greekr ecurits to continie the war in Thrace. In fact the Turkish intentions were not drastic, and he undertook to reassure the population accordingly. None the less the deportations continued" p.324.
From these passages there are important things to add to the article
* en-route to the reoccupation of Smyrna, the Turkish army had to witness their lands and property decimated by fire. Greeks did rape, kill and commit attrocities for no reason other than to inflict as much damage as possible during their retreat.
* The fire, though it may have been started by Turks, cannot be described as an organised attempt by the Turkish army and its high command to reduce the city to ashes - what good is rubble and ashes to Kemal? The fire was most probably escalated out of control by a series of random events, involving Turks, Armenians and Greeks.
* Yes, many Greeks and Armenians were killed, but it must be shown against the background of the attrocities commited during the Greek retreat. The city was in total chaos, Turks killed Armenians, Armenians killed Turks, there was mass looting by everyone; Greek, Turk and Armenian.
 --E.A 13:35, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: My Sources on Smyrna massacre

message: I added two paragraphs about the events that took place during the Christmas of 1963. The paragraphs are basically from http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Takism2.htm which is apparently not pro-Turkish. I also add few things which I guess is not disputable. --anon 21:11, 22 Jul 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Christmas of 1963

message: The casus belli wasn't declared in 2004. In fact it was not something that Turkey has come up with recently. It was reaffirmed in 2004 by the turkish national assembly. Literally it is a declaration that any unilateral expansion of the width of the territorial waters by Greece is unacceptable for the turkish state. In this way it links to the official Turkish position on the Aegean dispute. Therefore I reverted from "*2004 Turkey declared" to "Turkey reconfirmed". Donnerstag 03:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline: Casus belli 2004? 

message: I strongly support the deletion of the paragraph removed by 69.174.69.11 that ran "Both countries execute military flights by violating Athens FIR and in some occasions the Greek airspace as well. ...". This paragraph is factually inaccurate, and its contents are now covered much better in the "Aegean Sea" section. Please read the main article Aegean dispute. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraphs about airspace issues removed 

message: I was hoping to find a glimpse of the recovery of our relations in this article, but it makes things seem hostile between turkey and greece. well, it is not. I'm turkish and I have greek friends. My parents have greek friends. We can visit greece without any nationalists giving us bad looks; the same applies to greeks. A turkish tv show about a turkish girl getting married to a greek guy was widely watched in turkey, and a greek tv showed it in greece as well (and our newspapers say that it was also a success there, though that may not be true). I currently live in the USA, and I find that the greek people there are very close to our way of thinking; we have very similar cultures. Whenever I see a greek person I know I could be friends with him/her because of this similarity. Our cuisines are very similar (dolmaki/dolma, turkish/greek coffee, baklava, wide use of yoghurt and olive oils, feta cheese etc). You can hear greek songs in our nightclubs...
I realize that things -were- bad in the past, but this article is nowhere close to truth right now. We have very similar cultures because we lived together for a long time, and most of us people who live in the aegean coasts of Turkey probably has a few greeks in their family trees and the same goes for the greeks I suppose as it was the ottoman empire's policy (yes I know both the greek and the turkish nationalists will blabber some nationalistic nonsense but its the truth, deal with it). An article like this should show the current relationships as well. I'm sick of nationalists clinging to what happened decades ago, and creating prejudices for each other. --Jadelith 08:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, the section about the improvement of relations during the last years could be expanded. Something more about the EU process, the effect of the earthquakes, etc. There is already some material of that kind scattered across other articles, see Aegean dispute, Greece#Greco-Turkish relations, Foreign relations of Greece#Bilateral relations with Turkey. Actually, all these articles could be more tightly integrated anyway, with some more material re-factored out of the overview articles and merged into the more specific ones. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  why doesn't this article have a "current" relations part? 

message: Does somebody have info on and sources to the recent confidence building measures that were agreed by Turkey and Greece after the collision of the two F-16s?? If you got them pls incorporate them in the text. Thanks!!!
Also if someone can add some stuff other than politics and tensions, I think it would be great.. Does someone have info and sources on recent cultural relations (festivals, conferences, concerts, exchange programs etc.). If you do pls add them... Peace 
people!! Baristarim 19:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confidence Building Measures and Current Relations 

message: :This is really sad.. We have nothing about what's happenning at the moment, at least the positive stuff... Pfff.. FOR EXAMPLE, I AM WRITING IN CAPS SO THAT PEOPLE WHO LOVE TO ENGAGE IN ONLY COFFEE HOUSE TALK CAN SEE:
:RECENTLY GREECE AND TURKEY MADE A JOINT ATTEMPT TO HOST THE EUROPEAN FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP IN 2008, AND THEY WERE PRETTY CLOSE TO GETTING IT... Can someone, of whatever nationality, explain to me WHY IT IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED ANYWHERE IN THE ARTICLE???? DO WE HAVE TO FILL THESE ARTICLES WITH ONLY NEGATIVE STUFF???? Hasn't anyone thought of mentioning it in the years since this article has been created??
: SHAME ON ALL OF US, I GOT NOTHING ELSE TO SAY... It is utterly despicable, no wonder everyone else in the world says 'oh, the Greeks and Turks at it again, eh?' every single time there is a problem.. The whole article is about military, wars, massacres, disputes, pilots getting killed, revolts, unresolved issues... Every entry that starts good by mentioning some sort of warm relations quickly turns into a 'but, these issues remain', 'but, so many people died', 'but, they gave an ultimatum'.. I categorically refuse to believe that in the last 700 years there weren't any common happy memories or achievements, or resolved issues... Let's face it, we r all the products of f...-up brainwashing education systems on BOTH sides, I can only hope that my children will see better days... I cannot even describe my anger at this mediocricity...
:Yes, every single contributor (or revert-controller, whatever) to this article should be ASHAMED for not thinking of adding this, Turk, Greek or what the hell ever.. Let's cut the crap, the devil is in the details.. No-one that has failed to mention this has the right to carry democracy or peace at home blah blah tags... THAT IS THE TRUTH, am I wrong?Baristarim 23:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will add that info after having done a bit of research, but I got to go to sleep right now.. Baristarim 23:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice info. I didn't know about that. The "earthquake diplomacy" is in, for a change... •NikoSilver• 00:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, the most striking example of Gr-Tr friendship is the story of SS Kurtulus, simply amazing. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 21:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why is this missing?

message: Should the article read, Greek-Turkish relations (not Greco-Turkish or Turko-Greek)? Both countries need to appear under their names. Politis 12:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, well.. The only reason I approved it was for linguistic reasons, I have come across such issues before.. Hectorian was wondering what english-users would think, so as an anglophone I added my two cents in.. For me both are ok.. Greek would have more hits than Greco, that's all.. Seriously people, it would have more coverage :)) On the other hand, I am not going to persist at all with this, since as u said, we shouldn't try to make this a complicated thing... Baristarim 16:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article name change: Greek - Turkish relations