Talk:Jordan Valley

message: What exactly is the differnce between Jordan Valley (Middle East) and Jordan Rift Valley? Why do we need 2 article s to describe essentially the same thing? Isarig 23:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see my comments at the Jordan Rift Valley and read the sources cited throughout both articles. Tiamat 16:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: The figures given in the text for the population of the Jordan Valley from the CIA Fact Book refer to the Jordanian side of the Jordan Valley, while this article is about the land on the other side of the Jordan river, which has been under Israeli control since 1967. IOW, the land on either side of the Jordan river can be and is referred to as the Jordan Valley. The two should not be confused. I don't have good population figures for the Israeli-controlled portion of Jordan Valley or I would put them in.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.4.9 (talk) 19:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently there are conflicting claims about the population of the Valley before 1967. There is a EU report claiming that there used to be "between 200,000 and 320,000 people" living there before the Six Day War, but the Israeli census of the time talks about 9,078 people in the Jericho district. Of course, this was after the war, so all the people who fled then were already unaccounted for.Froy1100 (talk) 16:43, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Error re population

message: Merged content from the Jordan Rift Valley which was irrelevant to that geology article into this article. Content moved/merged included the tourism, agriculture, and demographics material. Vsmith (talk) 20:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Content merged from Jordan Rift Valley article

message: This picture shows a landscape which IS NOT PART OF THE JORDAN VALLEY AS DEFINED HERE! It shows the southern Sea of Galilee, but WITHOUT even the exit point of the Jordan River (that would be the rounded end which is not part of the picture, farther to its right), which is where the Jordan Valley starts according to the definition presented here.
 
The confusion with the far longer Jordan Rift Valley, which unlike the Jordan Valley does include the Sea of Galilee, is one probable cause for this mistake, and is the source of much more confusion. Needs careful stressing, even to the point of repetition - as proven here.
 
In the local Israeli terminology the southern part of the Sea of Galilee/Lake Kinneret is one unit with the northern part of the Jordan Valley, see Emek HaYarden Regional Council. This is probably the second cause ofconfusion.
 
In short, the Arabic "Ghor" and the Hebrew "Emek" both are defined much wider than the "Jordan Valley" is in this article. Beware of much, never-ending confusion.Arminden (talk) 21:40, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong first picture 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Debresser. Consensus means responding to another person's comments. I gave 3 strong reasons why your edit summary removing material was erratic and not ground in policy [here]
So please tell me:
*The source says 'Palestinian Bedouins' and you say they are two different things. Please explain why you are correct, and the source wrong.
*You state B'tselem is an 'radical leftist' organ and fails RS (poor source). Please point to me the relevant part of RSN discussions which has determined it is not RS.
*You state that there is no grounds for putting information prior to 1993 regarding demolitions into the demolition section. Explain why a section of Demolitions should exclude those occurring before the Oslo Accords.Nishidani (talk) 21:01, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have split the sentence into two parts. The first part, that Israel severely restricts movement, building etc. in the Jordan Valley is an accepted fact. I  have added another source, the Red Cross, for the statement. The second part, saying that this is a de facto annexation of the Jordan Valley; for this part I have added another book, from Indiana University Press. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 21:14, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have added another source by Itamar Rabinovich et. al. which gives the Israeli viewpoint that the Jordan Valley should be held for security reasons. 's edit is not accurate: the charge of annexation is not just made by B'Tselem, so attributing it to B'Tselem would be wrong. The source  quotes B'Tselem (and others) but it says the same thing in its own voice in the rest of the section. The section concludes with:  Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:45, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing impeccably sourced material 

message: Seeing that the West bank portion of the Jordan Valley is only around 33% of the valley, and the lack of material on other notable incidents (e.g. WWI history, Black September, situation on the Jordanian side, etc. etc.) - the coverage here is out of proportion. In addition there is an NPOV issue from the title, down to the text which is entirely one-sided, to the extreme, in the way the eviction of invading pastoral encampments into nature reserves and military training zones in described. When adding content - even if one has a POV, one should exercise some balance.Icewhiz (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: True. But frankly, I'd prefer to see improvements on both fronts: add new material that is relevant, and remove undue attention to recent political events. Debresser (talk) 16:13, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that other historical and contemporary issues should be expanded.Icewhiz (talk) 17:48, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The way out is not by removal, even if you think, wrongly, that there is an Undue problem. It's lazy to remove, when the perceived issue can be overcome by adding material you think is lacking on other aspects.Nishidani (talk) 18:33, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  To begin with, when adding new material (in this case - an entire section), one should take a balanced POV approach showing all sides. Beyond that - there is a problem with undue weight. It isn't that I don't think this should be mentioned - but it should be downsized to 3-4 lines, and not necessarily in a separate section from the rest of the West Bank section.Icewhiz (talk) 19:35, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Listen. Articles are writing according to sources. If we have numerous quality sources we use. There are no rules about what to add or not to add. One adds whatever is well-sourced, and relevant to the topic. You appear to know nothing of WP:NPOV, since you have emphasized downplaying the Palestinian view, and giving due weight to Israel's presence in this area. There are no 'should's here, unless 'should' means WP:IDONTLIKEIT. From one of the two POVs to be handled here, it is significant that the Jordan Valley stricto sensu once had, in 1967, an estimated Palestinian population of Prior to the Israeli occupation in 1967, the Palestinian population of the Jordan Valley was estimated as between 200,000 and 320,000, and is now, as a result of Israeli policies, thinned down to 56,000, i.e. a 75% reduction via ethnic cleansing. This and many other elements of Palestinian experience in what is nearly 30% of their West Bank, a third of their legal geophysical reality, cannot be thinned down in a descriptive article in the same way that the Israeli government thins down their numbers in reality. To do this, which seems to be what you are proposing, is to edit on behalf of a government, and not in accordance with the exigencies of encyclopedic coverage.Nishidani (talk) 21:12, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your claim of pop reduction, via ethnic cleansing, from 200-320K TO 56K is pure OR. Pro-Palestinian sources, with dubious reliabilty, are claiming much liwer demolition rates.Icewhiz (talk) 21:26, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The source for reduction of population from about 200-320k in 1967 to 56k in 2012 comes from here, quoting an EU report. Are there other estimates of population? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 21:37, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The entire west bank population pre war was around 850k, and post war around 700k, and mostly in cities and villages outside the Jordan valley. I'll try to get to the EUObserver's source, it is probably a population projection (e.g. would have been 200-320k had not the Israeli policy been what it was), and not an eviction figure (320-200 less 56 evicted). It is also possible they are counting multiple eviction events of the same people. The number otself does not add up to census data and census estimates. EUObserver probably got the 200-320 figure correctly from the report, but not what it was referring to.Icewhiz (talk) 21:59, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can confirm that the 200k-320k is not a projection. The summary of the EU report is reproduced here. It says:  They do not say where they got the number from. If other estimates are available it would be good to look at them. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:07, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  You got me curious - this is the full text (not just excerpts) -  of the internal EU document. As per  (your link) - this was for internal use and was leaked. I'm not sure it was published beyond the leak. The full (unpublished?) document doesn't actually make this assertion but says this is according to save the children (SCUK) fact sheet from 2009: . This SCUK document is available here:  and contains . This is sourced to a dead-link on  - Ma'an Development Center (not the news agency). This sourcing is more than a bit dodgy - and tends to contradict estimate of the population in 1967, for instance here -  a paper from 1990 by Dr. Wael R. Ennab (of Al-Najah University, the West Bank) or the Israeli census in 1967 (see here breakdown to region) - . Some of the sourcing in Ma'an development center can be supposedly traced here (Hebrew): . The 200,000-320,000 figure did bounce around a bit in some "solidarity" pages (e.g. ).Icewhiz (talk) 22:40, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Ma'an reports (note sure if the same ones from the dead-link, but repeating the figure) are here:  (in this case they are citing the leaked EU report which cites them), here:  (unsourced claim), and here:  where this claim is sourced to a dead link on jordanvalleysolidarity.org. The sourcing here is dodgy - and doesn't add up with 1967 population estimates (also by Palestinian researchers).Icewhiz (talk) 22:59, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is interesting. It's always good to get better estimates. I tried to read the UNCTAD source but it's not clear to me if it contradicts these numbers. Which part of the source are you referring to? The only reference to Jordan valley in the document I found says: It does not give any numbers. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 00:42, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The problem reading UNCTAD is that the source doesn't provide a map with the administrative divisions. However, this source (Doctoral thesis of a Palestinian born in Nablus) does: . Specifically, the Jordanian divisions can be seen here in page 28(31) and the Israeli in page 29(32). The area relevant to the Jordan valley is the entire Jericho sub-district, and for the Jordanian pre-1967 also part of the sub-district of Nablus. Population estimates per the UNCTAD paper  are in page 73(84) - and show a 1961 population for Jericho sub-district of 66k, and 1967 10.8k. For the entire Nablus sub-district (which is mostly not relevant) - in 1961 173k and in 1967 108k. This gives us a population bound greatly biased upwards (Noting that the Nablus sub-district is mostly irrelevant while Jericho is completely relevant) of 66+173=239k for 1961, 11+108=119k for 1967. Alternatively, the doctoral thesis has an excellent series of maps -  pages 49-52 (52-55 in PDF) - Which show settelment location and density in the entire West Bank. As can be seen in 1961 (and in 1967) - settlement along the Jordan Valley is limited to Jericho + 3 small dots in the eastern area of the Nablus sub-district in the valley denoting villages of under 2,000 people. I actually, after looking at this, understand how the 200,000-320,000 figure came to be - it looks like this is a combination of the pre-war 1967 projection (from 1961) of the entire Nablus sub-district with the Jericho sub-district. However - the vast majority of the cities and villages in the Nablus sub-district (which extended from the Jordan river to the green-line (western border)) - were not in the Jordan valley. This is also pre-war figures - not accounting for migration during the war itself (see 1967 Palestinian exodus). I'm sure additional, well-founded, sources exist - West bank demographics is a topic area that received quite a bit of attention from Jordanian, Israeli, various UN bodies, Palestinian, and other researchers - there are reliable estimates out there (I will note that from my knowledge reliable sources - Palestinian and Israeli - roughly agree on the numbers - they aren't an order of magnitude off from each other. At most you see "population inflation" bias of +10%-30% - not a blatant x2,x3,x5,x10...). You just have to go down into the weeds to understand the Jordan valley population - as this wasn't an administrative division until 1967 (The Israeli Jericho sub-district is the entire west-bank valley), and eastern "area C" (or the greater Jordan valley) only become an activist issue after 2005 or so (beforehand - the major population centers and connecting fabric was in the forefront, and of course the second intifada).To summarize - pages 50(53) and 51(54) in this:  clearly show the density of settlement along the Jordan Valley in 1961 and 1967 - and do not support the 200-320k figure (which is an order of magnitude off).Icewhiz (talk) 08:18, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Another note on terminology in sources, while the post-1967 Jericho military administrative district did contain the entire valley, the 1994+ Palestinian administrative division - which can be seen here Governorates of Palestine again splits the valley into Tubas Governorate (with settlements mostly outside of the valley) and Jericho Governorate (all in the valley) , with Bethlehem Governorate and Jerusalem Governorate also extending to the east border (to the Dead sea) - so looking at post-Oslo data you are again forced to usually aggregate parts of districts or go down to settlement level data outside of Jericho Governorate. There are similar issues on the Jordanian side - the valley is part, but not all, of several Governorates of Jordan - so official census data doesn't give you a figure. The Israeli regional councils and cities (Beit She'an which is counted seperately) are also a bit of a mess (and the article is currently actually wrong - I will fix).Icewhiz (talk) 09:41, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

text: Yes - getting to an exact figure here is hard (Saying 200-320k is way off is easy, getting beyond a ballpark figure is hard). The problem is that WP:RS would usually follow administrative divisions (which for the most part don't follow the valley) - leaving one (if we were to attempt to tackle this) to dive into the weeds of settlement level data and aggregating them. This is also a problem on the Israeli and Jordanian side.Icewhiz (talk) 10:49, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: After updating the article with current B'TSelem figures - this whole section of "Demolitions and evictions in the West Bank" deals with less than  2,700 people who live in small Bedouin and herding communities (as of 2009. In 1967? More complex to answer, but a few hundreds to a few thousands for migratory/semi-permanent herding communities is stable for past 2-3 decades there - these are small herding communities in an arid environment (the valley floor is not arid - the surroundings very much are) that move around in tents and/or set up ramshackle dwellings). This should be mentioned briefly - but only briefly, given that this is a small fraction of the valley's population.Icewhiz (talk) 12:31, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: One doesn't judge WP:Undue by making calculations of percentages (a 'fringe' thesis), but by evaluating the weight given the facts in sources. One reason the numbers diminished rapidly is that immediately after seizing the Jordan valley the IDF smashed 140 water pumping structures, denying the traditional communities the very basis for their continued agriculture and herding.Nishidani (talk) 14:47, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:   Coverage of this issue (and the concurrent political campaign to expand the PA's area of control eastward, including funding and encouragement of illegal squatting in nature reserves and firing zones) is fairly recent, and is fairly limited to the usual pro-Palestinian suspects. Yes, there is some coverage. But it isn't very wide. Lets put it this way - the alleged baptism of Jesus (in this location) has much more coverage.Icewhiz (talk) 15:40, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  In terms of numbers - it is fairly clear that following 1967 Palestinian exodus - which was actually a very significant event for the Palestinian population in the Valley (in Jericho sub-district (which is entirely in the valley and the area of the valley) - if we take  (page 73 (84 in pdf)) as a source (we need more than one source, this particular one may be biased pro-Palestinian) - we have a drop from 66,000-80,000 pre-war to 10,000-11,000 post-war in 1967 - so more than 50,000 people who left - 80% of the population). The following enforcement of zoning laws, nature reserves, firing zones, etc - has had a much more minor impact.Icewhiz (talk) 15:47, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  At the moment, there is a lot of missing stuff which can be covered in the article. This article could be significantly expanded with other material. I'll try to get to this article in a few days when I get the time. In the meantime, one can leave the section with an UNDUE tag. One can also add an "under construction" tag if required. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 17:26, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to have a go at this one tonight, covering the 20th and 21st centuries, and after adding other events, integrating this as well into the flow and balancing. Would be great if you review and add whatever I miss.Icewhiz (talk) 17:50, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  : Take a look. This needs editing. 1948 war is probably too long. I tried to leave the NPOV other articles reached (lots of copy-pasting, though some new information from new sources (e.g. the UNCTAD paper we discussed above, or a source for black septempber and the valley depopulation) - and mainly integrated information specific to the valley (so e.g. Black September - is interesting because of the Battle of Karameh and the massive depopulation (63,000->5,000 according to some) of the Jordanian side of the valley.... 1948/1967 - because whatever happened in the valley. The water plans - because of its effect on the valley (which is now a small trickle - almost dry). I got most of the Ottoman up to Black September covered. Oslo, Israeli intentions on area-C and the valley, and the current "hot" activist issue of herding communities in the greater valley area - still need to be integrated and balanced - but I'm done for this evening.Icewhiz (talk) 23:41, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Completed to present (and future Palestinian aims), integrating current content. This needs editing - but at least major events are covered.Icewhiz (talk) 08:18, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demolitions and evictions in the West Bank - NPOV and UNDUE 

message: With the definition of the geographical area as "Jordan River... which ends at the Dead Sea.", should we include the population of the Megilot Regional Council in the demography paragraph?
Four out of the six communities in this council lie north of the Dead Sea within the topographical Jordan valley. The other 2 lie adjacent to the Dead Sea.
Chocom (talk) 06:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

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thread_title:  "Shunet Nimrin" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]