Template talk:Books of the Bible

message: Should I? Do you think there should be a request for comment to get some feedback on what to do with this template? It seems better than chopping it apart or deleting it outright. Of course, I put some effort into this and I think it has some utility, so I think it can be used (either as-is or with modification.) -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I did As you can see below. I excluded any style discussions, as I assume that those can be easily discussed and changed per consensus. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment? 

message: There is a dispute about the scope of this template: should it include Christian and Jewish canonical traditions together or not? Does this constitute a problem of POV or original research? There are also style issues and smaller controversies that can probably be resolved easily. 21:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The two together Just like how the articles Bible, books of the Bible, and Biblical canon include both traditions, so should this template. The template includes all traditions' canons precisely so it will not be POV; to restrict it to Christians only would make it POV (and inherently more problematic, really, as there is no single Christian canon.) Leaving it ambiguous as to what actually constitutes the "Bible" allows the reader to decide for himself and understand the development of the various canons. This is also not original research anymore than a "Books of Tom Clancy" or "James Bond films" template constitutes "original research;" this is simply a listing that is already available on a variety of articles (most of them linked earlier in this post) and which are themselves sourced. While I appreciate the concerns of my detractors, the template as it stands is NPOV and useful for navigating a variety of interrelated topics. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Also Furthermore, claiming that the two traditions can't be presented together is itself POV against Hebrew Christians, Messianic Jews, early Christians, etc. and is inconsistent with the articles that I listed above. Again, in order to be NPOV, both traditions (assuming that there is a stark division between the two and they are themselves monolithic) must be presented. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

text: For the OT canon, I much prefer the older template, Template:Books of the Old Testament, because (i) it follows the sequence of the books as usually printed (albeit the Christian not the Jewish order); and (ii) it says who recognises each of the groups of pseudepigraphia. The main change I would like to make would be to make it (the old one) collapsible, and collapse it by default. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OT Canon I would be happy to have both, as they serve two different - if overlapping - functions. In terms of layout, one is a sidebar and the other a footer, so the actual process of navigating and laying out the page is different. Also, this template is clearly broader in its scope, and directs the reader to a variety of sources. As far as the order goes, it is impossible to display the order in which the OT canon appears, because it is different for different church traditions (see, for instance Books of the Bible), even among Christian traditions within the same church government. If anything, I think someone could make the case that presenting it in the Protestant order is POV. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Me As I stated above, I am trying to present the views of a variety of faith communities, not my own, hence I have included to them all for 1.) the reader's benefit and 2.) NPOV. To claim that "X, Y, and Z" are the canon of the Bible would be POV, so I have presented all canons of all mainstream faiths that include the Bible as a scripture. If you would like to include some kind of Islamic point of view (as they can also be argued to include the Bible or portions thereof as divine), I would not object. Also, I should point out that Messianic Jews do not accept (for instance), Psalm 151 as canonical, so presenting the reader with a navigational template that includes it does nothing to provide the Messianic POV. All I was saying is that it is no the place of Wikipedia to exclude that POV nor the Eastern Orthodox position that Psalm 151 is canonical; let the reader evaluate that himself. As to the further allegation that I am somehow infiltrating Wikipedia for a Messianic agenda, I find that a bit offensive and inflammatory. Whether or not I am a Messianic is irrelevant and as I have argued, I am not presenting their POV exclusively or predominantly; I am presenting the views of a variety of traditions on their own terms for the reader's benefit. As for whether or not a Christian can "accept Midrashim or the Talmudic Oral Torah as in way connected or supportive of any 'Canon,'" that is simply not true as I have shown above. Of course, it is not the majority opinion in mainstream Christianity to take into account Talmud, but it is not our place to say that Christians cannot. Let the reader decide with an NPOV template that comes from a variety of perspectives. Your pointed barbs toward myself, my education, and my religious convictions are a bit frank and untrue, so please keep the discussion restricted to the content of the template rather than any conspiratorial or bad-faith assumptions about the contents of my mind. If I act in a manner that is clearly opposed to some policy, then take appropriate action. If you want to talk to me personally, you can post on my talk or correspond with me. Otherwise, it has no place here in talk. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 05:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Also Your edits to the "Name" field break the  functionality; please don't reinsert them. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 05:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Impossible Should we make separate articles for each faith tradition as well? In addition to being unworkable, that suggestion would be ahistorical, illogical, and not useful to the reader. All the more how they should be put together for purposes of navigation, which is the point in this template. Again, in this post you use sarcasm quotes that display your own biases and make some unfounded allegation; I did not coin the term "Bible," I did not found any particular faith tradition, and I have no vested interest in who considers which pieces of Scripture canonical. Nor do I have any agenda to create any kind of cross-faith government, organization, or movement. I am simply reporting what others have said and how they have defined their various canons themselves. In what way is this false or misleading? It would be false and misleading to state in this template that the Bible is "X, Y, and Z" when other traditions exclude X and include W. That is precisely what makes this not be false or misleading. The even more outrageous allegation that this is somehow "unholy" is actually preposterous and bad-faith, Izak. And while I'm on the topic of bad faith, your edits make me wonder if you even read what I wrote or the contents of the template itself. As I said before, changing the "name" field breaks the functionality of ; either you don't understand that (doubtful, considering how long you've edited), you don't care (which is bad faith), or you didn't even read what I wrote and blind reverted (worse faith.) Please don't take out any personal grudge you have with me on the most basic functionality of the template. Also, as I suggested, it appears that you reverting in the middle of the RfC has confused at least one reader (Coppertwig.) If you revert it in the middle of the RfC, some users are commenting on something else than others, which renders the entire discussion pointless. Lastly, I don't know if this is a matter of simple mistake, ignorance, or maliciousness, but removing pseudo-Josephus is nonsense; it is considered canonical (the "broad canon") by the Ethiopians and has never been considered canonical by Jews. Why did you remove it? This edit isn't even consistent with the intention that you've stated here and in your edit summaries. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 04:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Sure That makes sense - if you think it makes more sense to have either a tripartate division with HB/OT/NT, etc. or have them all listed together, I would be fine with that. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 04:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with Izak. I am very concerned not only with NPOV but more fundamentally the correctness of the template (in its original jewish+christian form).  It completely misrepresented Jewish theology.  They fact that it distorted some other smaller groups (Messianic Jew etc) less is no consolation.  As it stand now of a Christian only template, I have no comment.  Jon513 (talk) 09:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Correctness? In what way does this misrepresent Jewish theology? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 04:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Large and unwieldy It may be larger than desirable; personally, I think it's fine, but I can understand someone else thinking the opposite (especially with a smaller resolution.) For that reason, I thought it made sense to have collapsible parts and if someone wants to insert them, I would be fine with that. Your statement about Mormonism is confusing: Mormons don't have any additional pieces of Scripture they consider to constitute the Bible, and I included a link to the Standard Works precisely because Mormons are a part of the larger Christian tradition and have a larger canon than simply the Bible. I don't understand what you want exactly. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 04:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The Bible As the articles Bible, books of the Bible, and Biblical canon are about all Christian and Jewish traditions, so should this template be. To say that the Bible constitutes one set of Scriptures in particular would be POV; in order to avoid that, I have included all of those traditions. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 04:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I think "Biblical Books in Christianity" would sound better.  But it certainly should not be yet another attempt to jam Jewish and Christian religious concepts together.  We had enough of that back in December with the ill-fated "Glossary of Christian, Jewish and Messianic terms". -LisaLiel (talk) 01:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

text: See above Lisa, that glossary article constituted original research, whereas this does not - at least no more than the articles on the Bible themselves constitute original research by simply listing the contents of the Bible according to a variety of traditions. Jayjg, I think I've addressed your concerns in my prior comments, and I'm equally confused here about your reference to Mormonism. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 04:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No you haven't, you've now got the "Hebrew Bible" as a subset of the "Christian Bible". The "Old Testament" is a subset of the "Christian Bible", the "Hebrew Bible" stands on its own. Jayjg (talk) 03:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Hebrew Bible" is a term used by academics to be neural. It refers only to the language they were written in. If it is not a NPOV term then there is no NPOV term.--Carlaude (talk) 14:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not strictly true. The Hebrew language bible (aka masoretic text) only really dates back to the 8th century; before that it was the Greek language Septuagint. Apart from the dead sea scrolls, which are individual rather than a combined "bible", there isn't really a "bible" in Hebrew that's pre-Christian. Clinkophonist (talk) 19:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

text: See Inspired Version. Relata refero (talk) 15:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Good point. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 06:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment 

message: Thanks both for your hard work and your responsiveness to comments. Once the version begins to stabilize and the RfC wind down, I'd recommend that you rename the template to match the heading (currently Books of the Christian Bible). Thanks, HG | Talk 16:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Name The name of the template and name field are part of the distraction. If you see the template before it was modified, that is what is going through the RfC above. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 06:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template name 

message: Sorry to sound negative, but I still haven't seen any reason to have this template when there are already the much tighter ,  and  templates. I just can't see the justification for this template - almost a screenful - being on the page of every biblical book when it duplicates much of what is in those templates. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Each of the templates you mention are useful in their own right, as is the one being discussed here. They should, though, appear collapsed by default; this is, I believe, technically possible. Dampinograaf (talk) 17:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why have this template at all? 

message: What does the mythical "Council of Jamnia" have to do with the Books of the Christian Bible? Jayjg (talk) 03:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that this template is about books of the Bible, not about "Books of the Christian Bible. Whether the "Council of Jamnia" is mythical or not, it is frequently mentioned in discussions on the canonical process; see e.g. Development of the Jewish Bible canon or The Council of Jamnia and the Old Testament Canon.Dampinograaf (talk) 10:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: However, as has been decided by lengthy discussion (see above), this template is actually about Books of the Christian Bible, and the "Council of Jamnia" certainly had nothing to do with that. Jayjg (talk) 03:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the supposed Council of Jamnia has to do with the Christian canon. It can be cited by Protestants as a reason for their rejection of the Deuterocanon, so that makes it relevant to the Christian bible, does it not? Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it cited by Protestants as a reason for their rejection of the Deuterocanon? Jayjg (talk) 22:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard that. Idk if I can find a RS for it, but I have heard it. On a quick search in JSTOR, I found it mentioned in an article titled "The Place of the Book of Esther in the Christian Bible", from "The Journal of Religion", so I don't think its unreasonable to say it is a basis for whether or not Gk portions are included in the canon. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the Protestant position is based more on the fact of the Jewish canon, rather than whether or not the Jewish canon arose due to any Council of Jamnia. If the Council of Jamnia article is correct amd the idea of such a council first gained prominence in the 19th century, then this is certainly the case, because the Protestant OT canon was settled 300 years earlier. Peter Ballard (talk) 05:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Council of Jamnia" theory was first proposed by Graetz in the 19th century. So, anyone else have any arguments as to how the "Council of Jamnia" is relevant to the Christian Books of the Bible? Jayjg (talk) 05:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Council of Jamnia 

message: Since this template no longer contains Clement or the Shepherd, I suggest that it be removed from those pages. On the other hand, it should be included on the pages of all the "Old Testament" books. We need some consistency here. StAnselm (talk) 07:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Makes sense to me. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

text: agree.Dampinograaf (talk) 20:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Inclusion

message: Is the order of the Old Testament list really as random as it seems?  Other Wikipedia tables (e.g., Template:Books of the Old Testament) seem based on the canonical order.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rknasc (talk • contribs) 20:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It followed the canonical order of the Jewish Tanakh. As the template now states that it is the Christian Bible, I've changed the sequence. - Fayenatic (talk) 00:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We probably should have "1 & 2 Samuel", etc. I'll change it now. StAnselm (talk) 00:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Order of Old testament Entries

message: Please WP:verify your claim that on the status of 1&2 Esdras with the RCC. 
Barring that-- please change the article Books of the Bible first. 
This template follows the infomation on Books of the Bible which is where folks would normally WP:verify infomation anyhow. --Carlaude (talk) 17:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  1&2 Esdras with the RCC 

message: :Lutherans following Martin Luther himself never included any of the Old Testament Apocrypha in their Old Testament canon. 
:They followed the traditional Protestant canon of the books of the Bible." I would then have this to back up that statement in a footnote: "Jaroslav Pelikan and Helmut Lehmann, gen. eds., Luther's Works, The American Edition, 55 vols., (St. Louis and Philadelphia: CPH and Fortress Press, 1955-1986), 35:337; Erwin Lueker, Christian Cyclopedia, (St. Louis: CPH, 2000), sub "canon-Bible"; Heinrich Schmid, The Doctrinal Theology of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Charles A. Hay and Henry E. Jacobs, trans., (Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1961), 80-81.
:I am removing references to Lutheranism in the Deuterocanonical books section.--Carlaude (talk) 18:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the correct move.  As a former Lutheran, I can tell you that Lutheranism as a whole does not accept these books.  There are some denominations of Lutheranism that might because they're very, very close to Catholicism, and I've been told that the Finnish Lutheran Church and the Orthodox Church are "virtually the same."  But my own denomination of Lutheranism, the Missouri Synod, does not accept those books.  Martin Luther kept those books in the Bible, but put them in the back and noted that they were not canonical, but simply "good reading." -- Crushti (talk) 01:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto for Anglicans. I'm removing them for the same reason. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lutheranism & the Deuterocanonical Books  

message: @Tahc...How does Weekly Torah portion have anything to do with the development of the Bible? -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 23:12, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you are looking for the Template:Development of the Bible? -- this is not a development of the Bible template. It is about the Books of the Bible. The Weekly Torah portion are parts of the Bible-- the first five books. tahc chat 07:10, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Weekly Torah portion is irrelevant to the template because the verses are being referenced in different books of the Old Testament. Simply this, Weekly Torah portion is of religious beliefs only applied to Judaism. This template is not about religious value. -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 08:05, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weekly Torah portion? 

message: Please stop It seems like you're both getting pretty heated. I think that a simple mention of a list next to the Pseudepigrapha is legitimate. I made this template not just for the books that were canonized in the Bible but for all manner of divisions, manuscripts, portions, etc. to navigate between them. I think that a separate footer for works like Book of Jasher is appropriate for that article but the edit I just made to tighten up the links is probably useful for navigation here.—Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: My two cents