Talk:Battle of the Yarmuk

message: I have copy-edited day 1-6 but it is still not good enough. 
An example:" Khalid struck at the right flank of the Byzantines left half of the center, and the cavalry reserve of the Muslims right half of the center struck at the Byzantines left half of the center at its left flank." 
This is simply not good enough. After viewing the picture, I can make sense of it but the text confuses the reader. 
I need some braincells to rephrase this. I haven't found a way. Wereldburger758 (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  copy-edit day 1-6 

message: Have a look in the sandbox of the text that I have written along with the picture.  sandbox. Is this a useful addition in your opinion? Wereldburger758 (talk) 12:42, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think its a great idea. But where exactly this picture should be placed ??? i think Notes section will be good for it. Whts your thoughts ??
الله أكبرMohammad Adil 13:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  useful new addition? 

message: Can we please not continuously inflate and deflate one side or the other ?! The history of this article is riddled with attempts at changing the numbers from one POV to the other. Discuss this on the talk page BEFORE playing around with the numbers, and provide sources to support your numbers. Thank you. Unflavoured (talk) 08:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the source for modern estimates, only Kaegi has a very low estimate (15k), while all the others have a much higher number. Would there be an objection if we were to disregard Kaegi for this ?! Unflavoured (talk) 13:14, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Me, for example. Kaegi is universally considered one of the top experts on the period, as confirmed by the fact that he was the author of the article "Yarmuk" for Brill's Encyclopaedia of Islam, while Akram (who gives the highest numbers) is not a scholar and his work is not peer-reviewed.Aldux (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

text: I agree with Aldux. Nev1 (talk) 23:39, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

text: The numbers fighting on each side are impossible to determine. On the imperial side, sizeable detachments from the field armies of the East and of Armenia were involved, but it is unlikely either that these forces were up to full strength or that all of the units belonging to them were withdrawn for action on this single front. Rough estimates of the eastern field army suggest a nominal strength of about 15,000, and for that of the Armenian front about 12,000. Assuming 50% percent of each army were involved, a total of not more than 15,000 including the Arab allies, with a further 2,000-5,000 for extra units drafted in (from the limitanei based Emnesa, for example) is plausible. A total imperial force of about 20,000 would, therefore, be not unreasonable, although this remains a guess. 
However, the article still reads:  estimates for the Byzantine army are mostly between 80,000 and 150,000, with some estimates as low as 50,000 and 15,000–20,000. The only cited source for this is Kaegi, who says 15,000. Where do the other "modern estimates" come from? Skamnelis (talk) 11:19, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The numbers game 

message: From the discussion above as well as archive 2, I judged that the number 15,000-40,000 for the total Byzantine troops involved in the battle of Yarmuk to be the most plausible. Therefore, I agree with Wiki1609 (on archive 2) and partially with Skamnelis as well as Giordaano. It is argued by Mohammad Adil in archive 2 that the Arab force consists of an estimated 25,000 or at most 40,000 Arab troops, this is much too ridiculous if we consider the fact that he also claims that the Arab troops to be capable of defeating the Byzantine force consisting of an estimated 80,000-150,000 troops (unless it's 40,000 Arab troops v. 80.000-100,000 Byzantine troops, which is possible but I do not believe it is well cited). If this is a siege warfare or warfare utilizing guns and canons, then it is plausible, but with swords in the Jordan valley / Yarmuk plain? absolutely preposterous.
I also evaluated that Mohammad Adil's comprehension on the sources are lacking and I agree with the error in comprehension as pointed out by Wiki1609 on archive 2, for example: "I think you draw the wrong conclusion from your research. If the Byzantines had around 150,000 total troops throughout the entire empire, this does not mean they can deploy 100,000 men in the field".
Through perusal of the arguments presented above as well as archive 2, and research of relevant sources, my position is that sources such as Agha Ibrahim Akram and his ridiculous estimates needs to be removed from the wikipedia page immediately, or at least if this dubious sources were to be included, then it should only be included in passing such as: some historians estimated the number of Byzantine forces to be around 80,000-150,000, however further scrutiny of such sources shows that such claims are dubious and unreasonable considering the socio-historical context as well as the military structure and total strength of the Byzantine Empire during the battle of the Yarmuk. 
If no one concurs or refute this within a period of 1 week, except Mohammed Andil, of which the arguments I have already seen, then I would proceed with making the changes, taking into account that everyone above agrees with Kaegi estimates of 15,000 (or more precisely 15,000-20,000) Byzantine Troops, but none agrees with Akram's ridiculous estimate of 150,000 Byzantine troops.
I would therefore, revise or allow the revision of this article into 15,000 - 40,000 Byzantine troops (40,000 Byzantine troops is based on Journal of Asian History, Vol.19, No.1 - The Battle of the Yarmuk - A Reconstruction (1985) by John W. Jandora p.14.
SaintsCross (talk) 21:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: ================================

message: Really funny how Arab historians are always called "Outdated" and "Unreliable" while historians of the old like Herodotus who claim that the Persians sent an army of 2 million are honoured. Another thing which is annoying is how the Persians at Gaugamela are said to have mustered an army of 240000... Even after Granikos and some other battles they lost against Alexander. 
I see noone comlaining about that. 
But when a Oriental army defeats a Western army and even the historians of that time estimate the numbers of Byzantines arround 80000-100000 its still not good enough... 
--Arsaces (talk) 08:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:FORUM. Venting your personal feelings is not what article discussion pages are intended for. Iblardi (talk) 13:11, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Funny thing 

message: What happened to the mention from Byzantine reports that the Arabs bribed over 10,000 Ghassanid Arabs to switch sides? It used to be in the part about the tensions due to the different sects of Christianity practiced by those Arabs and the Byzantines.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.178.83.197 (talk) 14:29, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ghassanid Arabs switching sides? 

message: I don't if know if any of you or even the moderator bothered to read any of Nicolle or Akram's books. If you did they both say that the Muslim army and the Roman Army were a 1:4 ratio, respectively. I edited the text because most modern historians put the Roman estimate at 100,000 and most put the Muslim army at 25,000 maximum. Akram tends to estimate both forces as higher so if you want to use the biggest estimate of each historian than the largest estimate of the Roman army has to be put in. Which is 150,000. It wasn't put in. You did however use Akram's high number for the Muslim army. You can't just neglect Akram's high number of the Roman army and use his high number for the Muslims. Kaegi's estimates should be ignored because his numbers aren't consistent with the data of the other 5 sources. The numbers I put in are consistent with the scholars' estimates a 1:4 ratio. If you want to include every modern estimate as probable than the Romans will be 15,000-150,000 this range is too big and you have to neglect the outliers, mainly Kaegi and Akram. You are left with 80,000-100,000. If you neglect the outliers for the Muslim army you get 25,000. However we should say 20,000 to 25,000 because the historians clearly state in their books it was a 1;4 ratio. The previous numbers really are despicable, borderline revisionist, really makes me question what I read on Wikipedia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.235.4 (talk) 06:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Kaegi and Haldon are not revisionists, they are serious academics. The Byzantines could have not fielded such armies. They were not able to field an army greater than 25,000 at the height of their campaign against Persia with much of the gold from the churches melted to provide the resources. They could not field an army to protect Constantinople from the Avars. It is simply an impossibility. Anything above about 20,000 is fantasy. What should make you question what you read on Wikipedia is numbers such as these you are mentioning - 150,000 men. It is as if nearly the entire city of Constantinople had migrated to Syria and camped out in the fields. It is impossible. Do not forget all primary sources are Arabic.Skamnelis (talk) 14:25, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe Kaegi forgot to consider the auxiliary of Jabalah of Local Arab christians or Dairjan the armenian. knowing too its stringes before the era of Thematic organizations(which is after Heraclius death) Rome at least still have above regular 170.000 standing armies, althought not all could be fielded in one battle at onceAhendra (talk) 19:48, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

text: Uzair Ansari333 - Please cite which Reliable published sources you are referring to in order to obtain those figures - Thank you - Arjayay (talk) 12:05, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  I edited the numbers 

message: In the article it says Muslims estimated the Roman army to be 400,000. However, there is no Muslim source saying that the Roman army was 400,000. There are a couple that say 200,000. Nothing for 400,000. This is why I deleted it. Unless people can just put in stuff they like to believe.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.235.4 (talk) 06:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry about changing numbers just read it should be discussed first......... I also changed something else ..... 

message: The course of the Yarmouk River does lie on the borders of Syria-Palestine, nor yet on the borders of Syria and "The State of Palestine". It runs between the borders of Syria and Israel (as well as the borders of Israel and Jordan), east of the Sea of Galilee, in territory that has never been proposed as part of a Palestinian state.
Joe in Australia (talk) 23:59, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Course of the Yarmouk River 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Some time ago I added this picture:  to the article but it was removed. Is there any issue with it being used to illustrate the article?--178.169.198.103 (talk) 01:10, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle illustration 

message: The coordinates indicated can't be right. The battle site now appears on Google Maps c. 10 km as the crow flies north of the Yarmuk - that's impossible, even for the most remote luggage camp. Possibly useful: "The Roman army was arranged with the Wadi Allan gorge to their right, the Wadi Ruqqad to their left." I have it from Dan Fratini, who posted on www.militaryhistoryonline.com in 2006; now it's gone from there, but it's parked behind a paywall at ; others copied it () or parts of it (). Wadi ar-Raqqad (Ruqqad) is easy to find, but which wadi there is Wadi 'Allan? The one coming down in a N-S direction, passing next to (W of) Saham al-Jawlan? That would start explaining the current coordinates, but not fully. And is that indeed Wadi 'Allan? Arminden (talk) 18:09, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: hm. probably try Arabic letter? Ahendra (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coordinates incorrect 

message: # The Yarmuk is a river, not a place. Just imagine "Battle of Nile", "Battle of Thames", "Battle of Danube", "Battle of Seine", "Battle of Mississippi": never. It's not English. In full it would be "the Battle of the Yarmuk River", as it is  sometimes written, but it's not really needed. This is the term used by Al-Baladhuri, and since him by all the accurately writing academic sources. See for instance Paul Halsall. Those who write "Battle of Yarmuk" misunderstood the term (the meaning of "al-Yarmūq") or didn't think in English.
# English: mainly Yarmuk (Yarmūk, Yarmūq); -ou- is mainly French. Just google for recent academic books not written by French authors or francophone Syrian authors. Arminden (talk) 22:36, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name: Battle of the Yarmuk 

message: Cewbot removed the following:

I don't know a thing about this topic, but if it's about removing a kind of "high importance tag", it shouldn't. I undid it writing that this is a "TRULY history-changing battle. If it's not on some list: put it on the list!", but if it's just about the tag being the wrong one, then the bot was right. Anyway, who knows their way around this? High importance; history, military history, cultural history... Make your pick, they're all correct; Levant - Middle East - West Asia, whatever is available. Thank you. Arminden (talk) 12:05, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Vital article, class..., level..." 

message: Is there a specific reason why this article needs 6 different maps for the battle location?
*Syria
*State of Palestine (also on map of (Israel?)
*Israel (also on map of (Palestine?)
*Jordan
*Middle East
*Levant
The map of Syria best covers the border region. The maps of Palestine, Israel and Jordan don't add much adtional info and Middle East and Levant are also overlapping.
I think it's best to keep only Syria and the Levant map. 31.21.58.243 (talk) 14:54, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maps 

message: I think any Anonymous user who edits this number without citing a source should have their Logs blocked. You have the same people with the most recent example being 84.80.96.143 editing the army size and putting fantasy numbers there instead every few days after the army size number is reverted back by one of us. I've had to revert the Byzantine army size like 20 times at this point lol.Byzantium is Rome (talk) 00:03, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Byzantine Army Size Modern Estimates  

message: "5,00,000 Byzantines soldiers"
I can't tell if this number is supposed to be 5 million or 5 hundred thousand, it is written so poorly. When I go through the revision every single entry is complete nonsense. Can we please get this page protected? I came here to learn history, not some bs propaganda someone wants me to believe. 203.214.72.108 (talk) 20:30, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Article needs major work, not just the numbers. I reverted the most recent revision. Good case for low-level page protection, which I may start myself if the problem continues. Al Ameer (talk) 21:49, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What on earth is happening with the numbers? 

message: I do believe that the Byzantium was unable to comprehend the terrain of Syria, the environment was probably hostile to heirs of Rome.
18:01, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inability to comprehend terrain 

message: "Rashidun Caliphate" had units that knew the Levant, particularly merchant caravan and spies that spoke Arabic they used to trade in that region, and knew it very well.
These units were the cause of the Byzantine defeat at such a massive scale.
04:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please sign your posts with four tildes (~) and provide a reliable source for your above claim. Thanks.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:01, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arab caravan 

message: The discussion on numbers went on for about 15 years (with me participating in the initial phase)
and yet, the state of play in historical literature about the numerical strength of the armies at the Yarmuk was adequately summarized by user Drungarios right at the beginning of the talk page, way back in 2006. I will repost here his contribution (for future history) 
"The respective strengths of the combatants in this battle should be reconsidered or perhaps footnoted with a suitable caveat. My reasons for this suggestion are as follows:
The most recent research on the battle of Yarmouk takes into consideration for the first time many real-world logistical concerns that helped to determine the limits of the individual combatant strengths. (Sources like Gibbon's 18th century masterpiece, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, though suitably revered by historians, should no longer be considered the authoritative account of aspects of Byzantine history due to advances in the understanding of the military and social workings of the Byzantine Empire and a more realistic view of military history in general.)
In respect to the historiography of the battle it must be said that the battlefield strength estimations of both Muslim and Byzantine sources leave much to be desired. None of the sources typically utilized (the chronicles of Theophanes and Nicephorus as well as several Eastern Christian sources for the Byzantine and many Muslim sources, notably al-Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, and al-Baladuri) are contemporary with the events they describe. By the time most of the sources for the battle were set down, legend had crept into the popular conception of the clash and influenced the writers' guesstimates.
Religion also played a major part in both Byzantine and Muslim recollections of the battle. Muslim sources exaggerated the size of the Byzantine army in order to magnify their accomplishment in destroying it, as well as to lend credence to their understanding that the victory was divinely inspired. Byzantine sources exaggerated Muslim strength in order to minimize the humiliation of their defeat or to illustrate the displeasure of God with the path the Byzantine Empire, or Heraclius in particular, had taken.
Having said all that about the all-around unreliability of the raw sources with which historians work, the current general consensus, as far as a consensus can be reached on such a poorly understood period of history, is that the two armies were not nearly as unevenly matched as the current Wikipedia article suggests. Evidence for this point of view rests mainly on a synthesis of the source impressions, on the respective state of affairs in the bases of operations of both sides, and on the logistic capabilities of each side.
An excellent treatment of the source materials and the general impossibility of ever reconciling the many different traditions surrounding the battle can be found in Donner's valuable "The Early Islamic Conquests." The reconstruction of the campaign that retains the most credibility when the several traditions concerning Yarmouk are compared is that of ibn-Ishaq and al-Waqidi. This reconstruction places the Byzantine army at 100,000 strong and the Muslim force numbering roughly 24,000. Donner offers little personal comment on the numbers, apart from an admission early-on that the sources diverge so widely in their estimations as to make any confident assertions of strengths impossible.
On page 59 of "The Byzantine Wars" by John Haldon, the author indicates that a Byzantine force of much more than 20,000 is unrealistic for the conditions in the Byzantine Empire at the time, especially concerning the religious conflicts and unrest in newly reconquered Syria. He goes on to state that the Muslim force can be considered inferior in size to the Byzantine army, if only due to the tactics employed by Muslim leaders at Yarmouk.
On page 32 of "Yarmuk AD 636: The Muslim Conquest of Syria" David Nicolle states that at least half of the Empire's 50,000 battle-available troops were tied down in garrisons or deployed to protect strategic communication lines. He goes on to say that Byzantine expeditionary forces were severely limited during the chaotic 7th century and could have only reached a strength of 30,000 soldiers at most.
Walter Kaegi's biography "Heraclius: Emperor of Byzantium" states on page 242 that the Byzantine army (including Arab allies) at Yarmouk probably totaled 15-20,000 soldiers, while still enjoying a numerical superiority over the Muslims.
On page 131 of "Byzantium and the Early Islamic Conquests" Kaegi goes on to state that it is doubtful that the Byzantine army exceeded 20,000 men and that the Muslims were outnumbered. His comments on the sources seem to be generally shared among modern specialists and deserve to be quoted here. "It is not worth even attempting to determine the respective probability of any veracity in the various Christian and Muslim traditions. Their numbers simply bear no relation to what military historians can accept as plausible for this period for Byzantine troops." (page 131)
In conclusion I must say that the estimates of the Wikipedia article on the battle of Yarmouk are misleading in the extreme. According to the rough consensus of the historians I have here quoted, a much more accurate illustration of the numbers would be something like 30,000-40,000 troops for the Byzantines and perhaps 7,500-24,000 for the Muslims. I apologize for the length of this post but it was difficult for me to let the article remain unremarked-upon in the light of such a preponderance of evidence suggesting more accurate figures. - Drungarios 06:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we leave Akram out, we have more realistic figures for the Roman army (15,000-40,000). Akram's 150,000 is very unrealistic (Trajan could field those numbers, but this isn't the Empire from Trajan's day). Suggestion: leave Akram out. LuciusHistoricus (talk) 18:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this, 150,000 is hilariously large compared to literally every other Byzantine army of this period. Also,  I haven't seen much evidence backing up Britannicas 40,000 loses number for the Byzantines 92.18.71.140 (talk) 10:44, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  the numbers game