Talk:TRIZ

message: ::: My friend worked in Samsung in Korea for an internship.  He told me that everybody at Samsung is using Triz.
Evidence for the Samsung TRIZ would be helpful. AndriuZ, links to TRIZ conferences and sites that have "triz" in the domain name are clearly biased and not helpful. The Japanese site you linked to does not exist. The one valid reference there is the ThinkSmart conference. How well-known is this conference? Was TRIZ presented there as a talk, or just in the proceedings? RSpeer 03:22, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
**TRIZ Work Recognized-Samsung AwardThe Advanced Institute of Technology of the Samsung Corporation has recognized the work of Nikolay Shpakovsky with a very significant corporate award. The savings of 120 billion... -- This is not a link to Samsung site, but rather to TRIZ promoters (Genady Filkovsky)
**TRIZ-trainer is an on-line system that teaches using TRIZ methods for problem which were successfully solved by the TRIZ consultants of Samsung... -- This is not a link to Samsung site, but rather to TRIZ promoters (Genady Filkovsky)**Structural Scheme For Solving a Problem Using TRIZ by Samsung Advanced Institute of Techology -- This is not a link to Samsung site, but rather to TRIZ promoters (Genady Filkovsky)
**(PDF) How to apply TRIZ at SAMSUNG Hyo June Kim -- This is not a link to Samsung site, but rather to TRIZ promoters (Genady Filkovsky)
**How to Apply TRIZ at Samsung (HJ Kim, Sept. 2003) -- This is not a link to Samsung site, but rather to TRIZ promoters (Genady Filkovsky)
**Samsung Advanced Institute of Technology (Korea) (English) -- This is the only link that seems to go to Samsung site, but it goes nowhere (Genady Filkovsky) 
**START SIGNING, STOP CRYING, USE YOUR BRAINS
**http://www.trizkorea.com <-- TRIZ Association at SDI] joined MATRIZ on 2005 february 22 as member No.35 (SDI-TRIZ is former SDI - Samsung Development Institute or "Samsung SDI". --AndriuZ 01:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: at Samsung

message: One can also look the through the INSA de Strasbourg  educational program  which is an international advanced master on innovative design in which are taught the advanced methods of problem resolution based on TRIZ.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sebastien.duboisINSA (talk • contribs) 13:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: INSA de Strasbourg

message: Thank You for Your contribution. Could You act more in the spirit of Wikipedia next time by fixing links, providing meaningfull comments? see for more Help:Contents --AndriuZ 00:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  user 205.162.133.2 

message: Cool down with revert wars and discuss disagreements in the talk page, or I will block you all. 
For starters, please explain me why the reference to the book by the original author of TRIZ keeps deleted?  I am inclined to consider this as a malicious vandalism. `'mikka (t) 21:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert wars

message: The section contains claims (including personal ones) that currently are not supported with sources and may be considered by someone as biased and even offensive. IMHO, it should be either provided with facts or rewritten in a more neutral form. Bronx 18:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TRIZ honours 

message: Many of the inventive principles are quite obvious. TRIZ is just out there to sell the books that provide information on problem-solving that is vague and rhetorical. Read some of Insourcing Innovation and you'll see what I mean. Whenever you think some sort of interesting epiphany about design will be written, Slocum writes about how it cannot be discussed due to intellectual property concerns or something else. Thanks for nothing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.135.161.73 (talk) 18:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible "get rich quick" scheme 

message: The version of clause about TRIZ in English essentially differs from its version in Russian. Here rules of this encyclopedia are broken all!
There there was a section of " Critic TRIZ ". In it there was a referencehttp://liw1949.narod.ru/index.html. Only there there is a constructive criticism of technical version TRIZ of the sample of the last century. And here there are only for a long time out-of-date materials. You meaningly deceive the readers!
80.95.41.213 17:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clause is not objective... 

message: The following statement from the article contains a contradiction; either an inventor resolves a contradiction or they do not. 
"The inventor typically does not resolve a contradiction but trades one of the contradictory parameter for another: No special inventivity is needed for that. Rather, the inventor develops some creative approach for resolving the contradiction"
I can't tell if TRIZ teaches that inventors should resolve contradictions or not but I think it is safe to say someone should resolve this one.
: Fixed, check please. Bronx 10:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resolving contradictions 

message: I am an Australian mechanical engineer, and have on occasion used TRIZ to help solve problems. I have found it to be a very useful tool, such that when used appropriately it suggests other avenues to explore. It is however only a tool, and people should not have unrealistic expectations of it. It will not help with every problem, nor does it always get it right. At the same time, people are wrong to unfairly criticize it, (eg. get rich quick scheme) as it has a solid technical basis and really does work. If you are in any doubt then I suggest you learn the technique (it's really not that difficult) and try applying it to your problems.  Logicman1966 07:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A useful tool 

message: TRIZ is not a general method of being creative, i.e. you will not write a better symfony. TRIZ is a method for technical creativity and innovation. This should be stated in the beginning of the article.
I have just read Altshullers 'Creativity as an exact science - The Theory of the Solution of Inventive Problems' (translated by Anthony Willians, , 4th printing, 1998; Gordon and Breach Science Publishers Inc.). The book states over and over again, that its methods is for the solution of technical problems, so please make that clear in the article.
Right now the article seems like a sales ploy to me.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.185.21.93 (talk) 17:55, August 28, 2007 (UTC) 
It is a sales ploy BUT that is GREAT. Sales is great. Sales is what moves stuff. It is also a tool (TRIZ). It is also a real life get rich method. However, just like getting rich on stocks: there is no "one right method". Its about a combination of personal judgement and frameworks and tools - and even then getting rich is never guaranteed - but you must try and tools enables this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.191.152.93 (talk) 21:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article intro should be modified to state that TRIZ is about technical creativity and innovation. 

message: Page sounds like an advertising.  More cleanup, and on linked articles, need to be done. --Statsone 05:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: https://ai-news.ru/2018/01/biohimik_populyarizator_nauki_daniel_laman_protiv_triz_bredovogo_ucheniya.html 31.148.164.20 (talk) 09:28, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: Where You are removing "impossibles" (contradictions), for example: water and not water, until You have nothing left to remove (of courese sometimes it can't be done)....  FIXME please 84.16.123.194 (talk) 19:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  looks just like robinson resolution principle (1965 - source MathWorld) (logic) 

message: This article has a massive amount of unsourced material, and what sourcing there is, is from TRIZ advocates. It reads partly as POV for TRIZ, as well as some POV inserted against TRIZ, or reflecting what seems to be a split in the TRIZ movement. It's also not very clearly written. The lede gives the reader no particular idea of what TRIZ is, apart from something really wonderful. (I actually had to look at other sites to get a clear idea of what TRIZ meant). An anonymous IP editor recently reversed an attempt to at least get rid of the unsourced stuff, and has since added more unsourced or poorly sourced material. This isn't good. I put a message on their talkpage, but they've continued to edit since then. 
I suggest trimming down to the basics. The information about Altschuller should be transferred to his article. RS critiques of TRIZ need to be found. This seems to be a movement with a lot of passionate advocates; we need to be aware of such editing patterns.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thankyou for stopping edit warring (Oh dear, you've just crossed 3RR). "unsourced stuff" to me is what is not in accordance with the rules on sourcing. For example, a link to metodolog.ru, with no indication of what article is being referenced, and in any case, it does not appear to be a site that conforms to sourcing rules. It has no apparent reputation for fact checking, and its "editor", Aleksandr Kudryavtsev, does not appear to be anything other than a protege of Altschuller, and thus not an independent source. Another example of the problematic material: Statements such as "Very often managers try to introduce TRIZ into their organizations in order to not be blamed for failures (a kind of "due diligence" and a means of preventing such accusations as "why have you not used TRIZ ?")" are completely unsourced. Your comments that "ignorance of something is not a ground for starting editing articles" is quite apt- you appear ignorant (wilfully so, given that I have already pointed you to the relevant rules you are breaking) of how this encyclopedia works. I'm filing a report to ask for you to be blocked for a short time. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

text: The meaning of what constitutes an independent source is explained in WP:IS and in WP:OR. Also note that per WP:CONSENSUS, when an edit has been challenged, as was done with your edits, it must not be re-added unless and until explicit consensus to re-add it is established at the article's talk page. Nsk92 (talk) 16:43, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

text: TRIZ does seem to have devoted followers, complete with schisms. It's a shame this IP has chosen not to operate within the bounds of civility and rules on how article are written and sourced. It would be very helpful if someone with good knowledge of TRIZ and Wiki policies, and an ability to edit it from an NPOV could turn up and help improve the article.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 17:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple issues tag 

message: To the various anonymous Canadian IPs (one, two, three different people?): Are you interested in learning how to contribute to Wikipedia?  If you're interested in improving (what is obvious to any experienced editor) a very poorly done article, the first thing you have to understand is the policy on verifiability, and the associated issue of reliable sourcing. They are there for a reason.
* On wikipedia almost everyone is anonymous (a few choose to be open, but they're rare). Nobody is selected by wikipedia on the grounds of their expertise.
* We have no idea when someone claims to be an expert if they're telling the truth. So we do not allow material in just because an anonymous editor says "look, I know lots about this, so this bit should go in."
* On the other hand, we can have criteria about sourcing - peer reviewed journals, books by academic publishers, quality newspapers.
so:
* It does not matter in real life how much of an expert an editor claims to be, every substantive piece of information you add to the encyclopedia needs to be sourced properly.
* Wikipedia does not contain "the truth", it contains what is verifiable in real world sources.
So when we want sourcing, it doesn't matter whether it's "true" or not, or how much you say you know, it needs to be sourced, and sourced properly, and with the editor stating the source. Metodolog.ru, for example, does not appear to be a "reliable source" in the wikipedia definition. (If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means provide it.) As for Triz journal - it does not appear to be peer-reviewed, and it's run by advocates of TRIZ. This makes it a problematic source for various kinds of information, particularly any evaluation of the TRIZ method. Wikipedia should not have articles that are merely puff pieces for someone's favourite thing. Statements on the effectiveness of TRIZ need to be sourced. 
As for original research:
* What original research means: Any analytical argument put forth in an article has to be an argument made by a suitable reliable source, not by an editor.
* Where there are real-world disagreements on the topic, Wikipedia does not take sides, but reports the disagreement. Regarding Triz, I understand there's a split been caused by triz and anti triz, and also a debate about the applicability of Triz to fields outside engineering. Wikipedia should report these disagreements, not say which one is correct. Various additions by anonymous IPs have violated this principle.
* A corollary of this is neutrality. Wikipedia should not be used as a forum to propagandise a particular view of the topic. Even if you think that alternative interpretations are intensely stupid and wrong, if they appear in appropriate reliable sources, they also need to be described. All critiques must be drawn from stated real world sources, not from the minds of editors. 
The last point to emphasise is that you must be polite to other editors. There are people with extremely strong disagreements on topics who manage to work together because they remain civil. The IPs have  insulted people and effectively refused to discuss their issues at all. It does not matter if an editor is "right" or not, if they cannot work with people, they will get blocked. 
Remember - wikipedia is by far the most successful example of internet volunteering ever. Despite all the jokes studies show it actually has a high record of accuracy, and has become one of the top sites in the world. It's done that by following the principles outlined above. As TRIZ advocates, surely you should be interested in how wikipedia has managed to do that relying on the principle that anyone can edit, regardless of qualifications, shouldn't you? It's a contradictory situation, after all. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: btw, I've just come across this, which shows that the editor of the self-published "anti-triz journal" lives in Ottawa. The journal is hosted by the same ISP (Sympatico) that supports the IPs editing from Ottawa. Just in case Yevgeny Karasik is one of those IPs, or someone associated with him, they should read the rules on conflicts of interest.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 03:23, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: To the IPs who want to contribute

message: I've asked a question at the reliable sources noticeboard here about the use of TRIZ journal as a source.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 10:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  RSN notice 

message: The second diagram doesn't look very helpful. Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like a diagram that only makes sense if you already understand a lot about TRIZ. Any comments?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diagram 

message: Support - BobKilcoyne (talk) 03:36, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merger with [[European TRIZ Association]]