Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Visual arts

message: It is often helpful to provide either an idiomatic or a literal translation of the title of an artwork, for the convenience of readers who do not know the original foreign language. Sometimes, the artist has provided their own "official" translation in the title they have assigned; on occasion these translations are technically inaccurate, sometimes deliberately so for artistic effect. For example, the French artist Marcel Duchamp reveled in cross-lingual puns and occasionally would deliberately tweak his translations for artistic or literary effect.
To ensure maximum clarity, I have used the following type of formatting to indicate editorial translations which were not originally assigned by the artist:
L'Ange Protecteur ("Guardian Angel")
The choice whether to use an idiomatic vs a literal translation (or to translate at all) should as usual be left to the discretion of the editors. In this example, the lack of italics and the addition of double-quote marks serve to explicitly indicate that the translation is not part of the original artist-assigned title.
This is in contrast to originally-assigned translations, which were part of the title as assigned by the artist:
Saint Sébastien (Portrait of My Lover / Portrait of My Beloved / Martyr nécessaire)
The above rather-lengthy title appears to have been originally assigned by the bilingual French-American artist Niki de Saint Phalle, so the entire string is italicized to indicate this. If in addition a translation of the last two words from French were desired, it would be appended, formatted in parentheses and double-quotes as in the first example.
Are there any Wikipedia style guides or guidelines regarding this or related issues? If not, should something be added to the "Manual of Style/Visual arts" (or elsewhere) to provide guidance? Apologies if this is "obvious" and already covered in the MOS or elsewhere; if so, please give me some pointers to any relevant existing policies. Reify-tech (talk) 20:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the key thing is to make clear to the reader where a non-standard translation is that of the artist - I'm not sure the conventions you've used above achieve this. At least in a note, or in text. Johnbod (talk) 15:37, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation of titles of artworks 

message: If I make an article about, say, a painting where the painter or owner gave it formal name (e.g. American Flag #3 or whatever), that gets italicized. If there's no known formal title but just a descriptive name people call it ("Winged demon devouring St Albans" say) -- this would mostly apply to works from a few centuries back or more, I guess -- then it does not get italicized in the title, correct?    
 
Also -- would title case be used for a title (New York with Shooting Stars say) and not for a name ("Cantaloupes being trampled by lions" say), correct? Is that part written down anywhere?
 
(This would have to also apply to the the article text, to match, I assume, in which case quote marks (as used for individual songs etc) would have to be used when there's no formal title, I am assuming, to separate the name from the running text, altho this technically outside the scope of this page.)  
  
If I'm wrong, or maybe wrong, correction would be welcomed!   
 
Absent any objection, I propose to edit this page, to clarify difference between "title" and "name" just a bit more, and add a a bit about when title case is used. OK? Herostratus (talk) 23:46, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If we mention a work of art in Wikipedia it must be notable, and it will have been written about. In the case of paintings or sculptures, a title used by reliable sources can generally be treated as the "official" title and should be italicized. Exceptions (certain types of art objects described in bullet point #1 at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Visual_arts#Works_of_art) are not italicized. For these, the question whether to use title case might be settled by following the convention your sources use, but maybe this could be elaborated in the MOS. Ewulp (talk) 06:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

text: No, not correct! Standard "assumed" descriptive titles like Crucifixion of Christ are also italicized. "Portrait of Foo" titles tend not to be italicized. There are some edge cases, and cases like Dresden Venus and Rokeby Venus where what is really a name, that would have puzzled the artist, is often treated as a title. But yes, generally, titles are italicized but names are not.  There is quite a lot on this at the WP:VAMOS section already; that is where this is covered. If, after looking at that, you think changes are needed, start a discussion on talk here.  Unfortunately RS often differ - the National Gallery has used I think at least 5 different titles for the Arnolfini Portrait in its own publications over the last 60 years.  I'm not sure we need to add that standard religious scenes have titles - one only has to look at how the great majority of articles handle them. But we could.  Johnbod (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Titles of portrait paintings are usually italicized in Wikipedia; see Pope Paul III and His Grandsons and Portrait Diptych of Dürer's Parents for good models that also display some exceptions. Reliable sources nearly always italicize portrait titles at least on first mention and in image captions, e.g. (from Goya: Order & Disorder, 2014, Boston: MFA Publications, p. 197): "When first publicly exhibited in 1900, Juan Antonio Cuervo was celebrated ...'"; though in the next paragraph, with reference to the same painting: "If the portrait of Cuervo reflects the status of the accomplished architect ...". Ewulp (talk) 03:04, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  So TITLES are italicized (in title and text) and NAMES are not, correct? 

message: :Category:Performances uses both present and past verb tenses to describe decommissioned works. I would like to add clarification here to build on MOS:TENSE for an edit-warring IP. It makes sense that installation works can be re-installed elsewhere, so as to keep the present tense. But if the work is destroyed or is an event that cannot otherwise be repeated, would we not use the past tense? E.g., The Gates or Shoot (Burden) czar 20:56, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verb tense for temporal works 

message: When exhibitions are mentioned in the body of an article, how are they formatted? Do they use italics, quotation marks, something else? I tried looking at the associated project page and couldn't find anything on the matter. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 09:07, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say use italics, but quotation maks are ok. The main thing is to use something. Johnbod (talk) 13:58, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I've long thought that VAMOS could do with something on this. The Association of Art Editors Style Guide recommends italics, except for "some types of exhibitions ... such as expositions, world's fairs, or recurrent shows". I agree with this – that italics should be the general rule and that there are some exceptions. Our article documenta currently puts that exibition's name in italics and all in lowercase, although it's one of the recurrent exhibitions considered an exception by the AAE, and it probably shouldn't. Ham II (talk) 18:42, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, :Category:Visual arts exhibitions suggests this is the general way we do it, though the "italic title" template seems rather rarely used. Do you want to draft an addition? Johnbod (talk) 04:05, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Sounds good. Johnbod (talk) 14:50, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

text: Thanks , didn't know it was covered. Still personally disagree but good to know that the question has been resolved. One of the best historic exhibitions doesn't have a page, the first Impressionistic exhibition where the movement got its name from a reporter covering it. Proves that there remains much to do on Wikipedia, and falls within that hole at the top of the logo. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting guidance on formatting for exhibition titles