Talk:Palestine (region)/Archive 5

message: Adding different languages to the intro is useless, and decreases clarity of text. Bensaccount 19:33, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: "Palestine" is mostly a historic term. Therefore it makes sense that this article will be devoted almost fully to the history of Palestine, with only pointers to the modern entites which are currently within its boundaries. I personally think that this article should be merged with History of Palestine. -- uriber 21:15, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It is actually not commonly used today, and when it is used (usually by Palestinians), it is usually not in the primary sense covered by this article. -- uriber 21:35, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: A Palestinian is a native of Palestine. Therefore every time you use the word palestinian in the current sense you are referring to Palestine in the current sense. If you disagree, please introduce a better definition of a Palestinian. Bensaccount 04:31, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: I'll correct what I said: The word Palestine is commonly used today, but mostly in historic context: i.e. by historians etc. discussing the history of the region (not its current status).  -- uriber 07:41, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: I don't know how it is used to "define a Palestinian". Anyway this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. So definitions are not our first priority. -- uriber 17:30, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using the most current definition of Palestine 

message: An article should be defined in the present tense. The history of the subject should be a subtopic.Bensaccount 17:44, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you apply the same rule to the British Empire article? And how about the Roman Empire?  -- uriber 18:24, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Using the most current definitions of words

message: I found a map of "Palestine". I modified to show the borders as according to the website where I found it. (I have modified it much so it is not a copy). I don't know if it is biased or accurate (I don't know anything about the subject). All I know is that it is an attempt to define the borders, and anyone who can tell me the accuracy of it should do so and I will modify it accordingly. Bensaccount 19:55, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: I think the purpose of this page is to help people understand what the word Palestine means when it is currently mentioned. I aim for clarity. Context is important for the article to be accurate, but that requires a good understanding of the subject. I dont have a good understanding of the subject. I will therefore base my information on what I read in this article and possibly a few other websites. (I am not here to research, I am here to clarify). Any bias that I might expose is already present it just isnt clear. Bensaccount 21:17, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Bensaccount's edits

message: I like this phrase:
:the eastern boundary was the poorly-defined place where the Syrian desert began.
Now I begin to understand better why there might be different and varying definitions of Palestine in use. --Uncle Ed (El Dunce) 18:13, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Dummy title

message: This page concerns nearly the same subject as definitions of Palestine.  I propose that the two be merged into one.  --Zero 12:41, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree as regards the definitions of Palestine section of that article, but I'm not so sure about definitions of Palestine.  Great to see you around again, by the way! - Mustafaa 13:27, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand your comment, Mustafaa.  Well, except the part about Zero, and I agree with that. :-) Jayjg  | (Talk)</sup> 19:21, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merge

message: As I said elsewhere, I really believe this is the the article which should be under the title of Palestine (with an appropreate disambiguation message linking to various related terms).
Unfortunately, there currently seems not to be much support for that, so for now we'll have to do with "Palestine (region)". The title "Region of Palestine" was inappropreate - it's not an established term, as most sources simply use the term "Palestine" when referring to the region. -- uriber 20:37, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renamed: Region of Palestine -> Palestine (region) 

message: Quoth the article:
The name "Palestine" comes from the Philistine people, who are first recorded by the ancient Egyptians as P-r/l-s-t (conventionally Peleset)...
But:
The Philistines (meaning "invaders" in Hebrew)..."
It makes no sense that the Egyptians would use a Hebrew word to as their name for this group.  One of these explanations must be wrong.  Someone who knows Hebrew ought to be able to work it out... --Jfruh 19:55, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See folk etymology... - Mustafaa 20:03, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: There is no evidence whatever that "Palestine" is either an Egyptian word or a Hebrew word.  The "derivation" of it from other Hebrew words is pure speculation.  Such "derivations" are claimed for every single name in the Bible, sometimes with good cause but often with no evidence beyond wishful thinking.  Next, the Egyptian usage predated the period when Hebrew is regarded as having evolved as a distinguishable language, so it cannot have come from Hebrew strictly speaking. However, it could in principle have come from a pre-Hebrew Semitic word that later became part of Hebrew.  The argument that the Egyptians would not use a Hebrew (read Semitic) word is incorrect; they often recorded such words.  There is no solid argument for the derivation of the word from Egyptian either.  A common theory (again, with little justification) is that the word is what the Philistines called themselves and that its roots belong in the Philistine language.  There are not sufficient archaelogical remains from the Philistines known for this problem to be resolved.  --Zero 00:19, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, the article seems to be saying (or implying) that the term as found in Egyptian is an Egyptian version of what the Phillistines called themselves, in which it would make no sense for the name to mean "invaders" in Hebrew, since they obviously wouldn't have called themselves that.  My point is that the article seems to be saying two mutually contradictory things.  The question of whether Philistine (or, really  Palestina) in Hebrew actually means "invader" ought to be an easy one to answer.  If there's no firm scholarly consensus, then the article should say that, rather than asserting two contradictory things as true. --Jfruh 02:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm no expert on this, but I think it's possible that the ancient Israelites just altered the already existing term Peleset (as used by the aegyptians) to Philistines, because this term made more sense to them, or fitted better into their point of view. That wouldn't be unusual from a linguistical point of view. Something quite similar happend when they started to call the canaanite god Baal-Zebul, meaning "Lord Baal", Beelzebul, meaning "Lord of the flies". 80.140.228.84 11:14, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of term Philistine? 

message: The article mentions Philistine cities but does not indicate the political organization of the region. Did the Philistines/Palestinians have "kingdoms" or some other form of state as the Jews were reported to have in Israel.24.64.166.191 05:47, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philistine kingdoms 

message: I wrote the following before, but it got buried in an archived talk page of a disambiguation page so I'm bringing it back from the dead. --Zero 11:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Filastin'' in the 1300-1900 period 

message: Is Παλεστίνα modern Greek?  Because it sure the heck isn't ancient Greek, as you can see by going to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Paus.+10.12.1 and selecting Greek text display, where you will see Παλαιστίνη in sub-sub-section 9 (or actually its genitive case form, with an additional final sigma which should be ignored, since names are generally cited in the nominative case). AnonMoos 15:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please fix it. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 17:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be helpful to have the pronounciation or transliteration included if possible. --Yodakii 03:37, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek name error

message: I think the reference to the "Hebrew" name  פלשתינה should go.
1.) The true Hebrew name is ארץ ישראל If you study the Zionist literature of the period before the establishment of the state of Israel you find that the region is call "Palästina" in German, "la Palestine" in French and ארץ ישראל in Hebrew. A striking example is the qeren ha-yesod le-israʾel which is called in Englisch "Palestine Foundation Fund". Herzl wrote in Altneuland: „Es gibt seit einigen Jahren eine Bewegung, man nennt sie die zionistische. Die will die Judenfrage durch eine großartige Kolonisation lösen. Es sollen alle, die es nicht mehr aushalten können, in unsere alte Heimat, nach Palästina gehen.“
For some telling posters see
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Modern%20History/Centenary%20of%20Zionism/Images%20of%20a%20State%20in%20the%20Making-%20Introduction
2.) There is no clear spelling for "Palestina" in Hebrew. Google found some 1100 times with sin-tav פלשתינה and some 300 times with samekh-tet פלסטינה This shows that it is not really Hebrew, it is just a transliteration of an English word. (And there is פלשטין   (  פלשטין  
3.) It is not true that at any time the Hebrew name for the region of Palestine, the land of Palestine was other than ארץ ישראל  -- that the British imposed Palestina as one of the officail names reinforces this fact.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.123.68.240 (talk • contribs) 
: This makes a lot of sense to me. I'll change it then. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 08:27, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So what you're saying is "Palestine" is pronounced "Eretz Yisrael" in Hebrew, and the "Land of Israel" is pronounced "Filastin" in Arabic. How about somebody fixing the other article too?"Palestine" and "Eretz Yisrael" are different words with different histories and meanings. Only since the British Mandate did the names "Eretz Yisrael" and "Palestine" refer to the same territory. Thats why there are seperate articles. There was a whole discussion recently going through all this already. --Yodakii 13:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No Yodakii I am not saying what you're saying, because what you are saying makes absolutely no sense in either English or according to logic!. This is not about "word games". Palestine is not "pronounced" "Eretz Yisrael" -- somehow I sense you are meaning to say something else but you can't get the right words out (by connecting the thoughts in your brain with the formation and vebalization of the words and in writing/typing them down here) which is evident by your false "conclusion" (if one can call it that) that "Land of Israel" "is pronounced" "Filastin". I suggest you get a dictionary and check out the meaning and translation of the word "pronounced" before you start tossing words about in a serious discussion about this topic. IZAK 09:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

text: So how about adding "Canaan" and the "Holy Land" to the list of names the roughly cover the same region? The "Land of Israel" is always called "Palestine" by Arabs, so it would only be fair to add the Arabic word for Palestine (noting it covers roughly the same region) to that article as well. If you can't agree on that then it seems the Hebrew should be removed outright from this article, since as you seem agree there is no Hebrew word for Palestine, only Eretz Yisrael. --Yodakii 05:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have no objections, perhaps we should also note the context of their usage. Let's see what others say. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yodakii completely removed Hebrew from the intro. Looks like an attempt to hide or erase the Jewish connection to the region. Let's not forget that this is an encyclopedic article about a geographic region, not a political pamphlet for the PLO. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 07:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your bad faith is sickening, Humus sapiens. The Jewish connection to the region is undisputed and well documented in this article and elsewhere. Only the Hebrew name is disputed. I would like to see NPOV wording in Israel-Palestine articles and avoid edit wars. Your cooperation is appreciated. --Yodakii 02:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

text: As a compromise how about stating the periods when the Hebrew names "Palestina" and "Eretz-Yisrael" have been used to refer to the same region? I'm not sure about the dates, but something like:( פלשתינה Palestina (? - 1948), ארץ ישראל Eretz-Yisrael (1922? - present))  Since it doesn't seem that "Palestina" has been used since Israel's establishment. The problem with this is that it isn't clear that prior to the British Mandate, the ancient name "Eretz-Yisrael" referred to a different range of territory. To avoid this problem we could just use this: ( פלשתינה Palestina (? - 1948)) and leave the definition of Eretz-Yisrael to the "see also" link --Yodakii 10:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Both are still in use, depending on context, so putting years is incorrect, and inappropriate (IMO) for the first sentence of the article anyway. Since the boundaries of "Palestine" are not well defined, and may vary accodring to context and historical scope, I think both Hebrew names are relevant to this article.--Doron 20:52, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If both terms are still used to refer to the present region then the context should be clear. I think the "Land of Israel" makes it clear enough what "Eretz-Yisrael" refers to. This article should make it clear what "Palestine" refers to. I think we can all agree these terms are not equivalent and interchangable as the current introduction seems to suggest. --Yodakii 02:36, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll endorse that. Arker 08:39, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The borders of "Palestine" are not well-defined, and different territories would be referred to as "Palestine" in different contexts at different periods. Most often the territory of "Palestine" was called by Jews "Eretz-Yisrael", and the borrowed word "Paletina" was also used, but only in recent history. I don't see the point of omitting either of them.--Doron 11:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Hebrew word for Palestine is not a recent borrowing, it's very old. It was originally used only to refer to the coastal regions, not the inland areas in Hebrew. However, it was expanded, first by the Greeks, to refer to the entire region (syrian-palestine) and that usage eventually makes its way to Hebrew. By the 1906 reference I cited above it's well established in that usage, as a neutral term for the region. 'Eretz Yisrael' on the other hand,  is not in any sense a translation of Palestine, but is a direct translation for Land of Israel. There may be a political point of view that supports equating them but I can't see how that qualifies as NPOV Arker 00:10, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No. The ancient Hebrew name of the coastal regions is Pleshet, not Palestina. I am almost certain that Palestina was not used in Hebrew before the modern age (refer me to a source if I am mistaken). And there's certainly no political issue here, the region was called Palestine by Europeans, and European Jews sometimes adopted this name, particularly, but not exclusively, when referring to the British Mandate of Palestine. See for example Anglo-Palestine Bank (which was called in Hebrew "Bank Anglo-Palestina", est. 1902). While the Zionist movement always preferred Eretz-Yisrael, the name Palestina was also used, and that's a fact, no POV here.--Doron 07:45, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The source, I quoted above, is the 1906 edition of the Jewish Encyclopedia. Under the entry Palestine: "The word represents the Greek form, Παλαιστίνη, of the Hebrew (Ex. xv. 14; Isa. xiv. 29, 31; Ps. lx. 10 [A. V. 8]), although in the Old Testament is applied only to the land of the Pelishtim, or Philistines, and hence denotes merely the coast district south of Phenicia.[...]n the course of time the term "Palestine" superseded the longer "Palestinian Syria," and it is used with this connotation by Josephus and Philo, while Vespasian officially designated the country as "Palestine" on the coins which he struck after the suppression of the Jewish insurrection in 70 C.E., implying thereby the territory of the Jews. The name is used in this sense by Christian authors beginning with Jerome, as well as by the Jewish writers, while the Arabic "Filasṭin" is more restricted in meaning, denoting only Judea and Samaria." While it I  have no doubt that 'eretz yisrael' is the prefered term in zionist literature, that doesn't make it a translation of the term 'Palestine' - it still means 'land of Israel' instead, and it's used in that context to convey and reinforce territorial claims. Arker 21:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, "Filastin" most certainly is not restricted to Judea and Samaria. Secondly, this article is about the region known throughout most of history as "Palestine", not just about the coastal area. Hence, it overlaps with "Eretz-Yisrael". The name "Palestina" is only relevant in the last century or so.--Doron 08:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  I asked someone to search two CDs of rabbinnical literature for uses of the word "Palestine".  He found very few: some mentions of the Roman use of that name, an example of Philistines called "Palestinians", a reference to the town of Ramle being called "Filastin" ca. 14th century.  Of course these rabbis were about the least likely people to use a name other than "Eretz Yisrael".  However, one can say that use of the name in Hebrew before the modern era was rare.  --Zero 11:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

text:  The word פלשתינה gets "about 14,500" hits in the Hebrew google, and that doesn't include other grammatical forms or prefixed forms (eg. בפלשתינה , "in Palestine" gets another 696), nor does it include alternative spellings.  The google counts claimed above are wrong.  So it simply isn't true that it isn't used any more, even if it is much less canonical a name than "Eretz Yisrael".  --Zero 12:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:   Hebrew: פלשתינה Palestina 

message: We should make an article called Palestine (country) that talks about the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
: This area of Wikipedia is already too fragmented.  --Zero 08:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's not forget that the Arab League has a non-sovereign member state whose name is conventionally translated as "Palestine" in English-language publications, while the United Nations also refers to its observer member entity as either "Palestine" or "Occupied Palestine" in English. And so, since the historical toponym continues to be preferred over a more direct rendering of the derived modern Arabic name, the confusion is likely to continue and the dab-page remains vital. //Big Adamsky 21:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palestine (country)