Talk:Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne

message: Removed here for now:
:One act that most enraged those who would later plan his death was his alleged role in an obscure negotiation with German diplomats during the war to trade non-armament military supplies to the Nazis in exchange for ten thousand Jewish refugees. The Baron ridiculed the offer, and reportedly was quoted as asking his counterparts: "But what would I do with 10 thousand Jews?" 
This story (usually told about "one million Jews") is probably apocryphal.  Supposedly this was said to Joel Brand, with no other witnesses, but there is an article of Yehuda Bauer where he shows that Brand changed the story over time and once even told it of someone other than Moyne.  There's also the question of whether this story was known at all before the Moyne assassination.  --Zero 15:23, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a million Jews ,not ten thousand. Regardless of whether or not you believe that Moyne said it, it did not bring about his assassination. It was simply not known to those who killed him and was made public years later. F1list 12:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: the statements at the time do confirm that the main reason for the assassination was Moyne's persistent refusal to help Jews fleeing from Europe. Amoruso 01:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: offer to exchange Jewish prisoners

message: Can we have a source, please, for "Brand's associations both with Eichmann and the Lehi raise some doubts about his credibility"? Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 12:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Source request

message: I expanded on the allegations of his anti-zionism and brought the citation from the book of Bell. I asked for tags on the other side allegations. Amoruso 02:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: added sources

message: Can we source that this guy belongs in this category? I removed it until we get sources calling/listing him as belonging. Thanks --Tom 18:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi. the reason for his assassination was that he was an alleged anti semite. I think the whole article suggests this theory very very strongly. Amoruso 20:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? Ok, alleged. OK, theory. Ok, suggests. Again, sources? The article says he was anti-Zionist. Anyways, until we can properly source this....--Tom 21:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lehi, including the assassins themselves, said that Lord Moyne is responsible for the killing of thousands of Jews. He was accused for having anti jewish sentiments, for them being jews - that's also the only interpretation one can make of the alleged line by moyne - "what should I do with a million jews".... if there ever was an anti semite remark it will be this, and this was also said by Brand as for the anti jewish sentiments. Few people would call themselves anti-semites and this is probably true for any "deragatory" category. Perhaps these categories shouldn't exist but as for alleged people fitting in that category, none fit better than Lord Moyne, and the readers can read the article for themselves and decide. Amoruso 16:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, thats my point above. Nobody should be deciding anything, thats original research. Just provide sources that label/call him an anti-semite. Its not up to editors to read an article and then say yeah that guy belongs in this or that category. Look at Mel Gibson and Richard Nixon. Should they be added to that category? Their comments would sure seem like they belong?..Anyways...--Tom 18:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It should definitely apply to Mel Gibson. In fact, I would add it, but the topic seems very controversial at the moment and we should wait for developments. As for sources, claiming Lord Moyne was an anti-semite, I really don't know what else you're looking for. If somebody murders/kills someone, do you need someone to call him a "killer/murderer" or is he a killer/murderer by what he did ? Moyne is quoted as saying the above and that the Jews are a mixture of races and not pure race like the arabs  and that his anti jewish sentiments were the reason for assassination like quoted above. anti jewish = anti semite... Amoruso 18:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  As of matter of historical fact, Baruch Goldstein should probably also be named as a murder victim, yes. It's controversial because of the circumstances, but you can see that in the article that that's how it's reported and verified, that he was killed afterwards... it's simply very sensitive in the context. But that's not the case here. Reliable sources said that he said those things, is that not enough ? Do they need to actually use the word "anti semite" ? they did use the word anti jewish. Amoruso 20:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say yes, reliable sources should say he is an anti-semite. I looked over the article and saw that he was said to be anti-Zionist. Was he also said to be anti-Jewish? Anyways...I'm pooped, can we continue this tomorrow? :) Have a good evening! --Tom 23:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've decided that you are correct. Most observers will name him as "anti zionist" and not "anti semite". I guess that in some perverted sense of the term he might not have been an anti semite. Leave the category out. good night and thanks for the discussion. Amoruso 01:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually even the "anti-Zionist" label needs qualification.  Contrary to his image, Moyne supported the creation of a Jewish state after the war.  I'll bring a source for this.  I'll also bring an academic source that discounts (or considers unlikely) the claimed "million Jews" quip. --Zerotalk 12:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

text: that's a ridicilous accusation. Moyne was self declared anti zionist, if it was up to him Jews would have gone to Madagascar. And he was justly held responsible for the outcome of the struma and the patria and other ships. His refusal to help the Hungarian Jews is the peak of all this. There are hundreds of historians who back this up (any new citations brought will be refuted). Amoruso 16:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you, but whoever you are, I'm afraid you're too late. The anti-semite category was dropped. What's embarassing, if we're getting into it, is Weizmann's statements of him, and the collboration of the yishuv with the atrocious acts made by the British and Moyne in regard to the Hungarian Jews. But this is not a discussion board. Amoruso
I see a lot of 'discussion' above that is based on hearsay. 'alleged role...obscure negotiations' is not good enough for me. My grandfather died at Auschwitz in late 1944 after 5 years at Terezin, and I am interested in Moyne but I don't hold a grudge. Let's look at the facts. Hearsay that Lehi wanted to believe, plus their need to do something spectacular, caused Moyne's death. He was a figurehead. Let's not be naive, there was no real trucks deal and no offer to free anyone. Himmler tried an angle as he knew the war was lost. Hitler would never have agreed to it. 
I have introduced some new points above that are not on Moyne's pages. I also mind when people use other peoples' miseries in the Holocaust to try to score points without examining the whole picture. Moyne supported Churchill's anti-Nazi position before the 1939 war. Moyne didn't take part in the Holocaust and didn't kill anyone except Germans in the First World War. My grandfather who died in 1944 was a native Berliner who won an iron cross in that same war. In Egypt when Moyne started there, the main threat was from Rommel. He seems more interesting than the caricature English colonial ruler. We would love that raids on the camps on Poland could have been made by the allies, but it didn't happen. Are we saying that all anti-semites deserve to die? I have Hasidic friends who are anti-Zionist. Or that Chaim Weizmann was not a good judge of humanity? In the 1940s he was a hero to most Jews; fact. CW may be 'embarrassing' to you, fine, you have a view, this is a page about Moyne and not CW, but many of us think CW was a good man. Enough.
*1) Please sign your comments.
*2) Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. You need to understand the way WP:CITE, WP:RS and WP:V work. The deal of Eichmann with Kastner and Brand is all very fully documented , and there are numerous historians who refer to this at utmost importance. It was a very real and serious deal.
*3) The fact you're holding a differnet POV is your prerogative on this.  
*4) Remember that this is not a discussion board. We're all good persons, I was just referring to the specific issue at hand. It's not a place to expand on zionist-anti zionist debates and so on. Amoruso 18:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Bowyer Bell's style was to interview lots of people but to stay away from archives.  His personal access to members of the Jewish underground groups, and to British officials, was rather spectacular and this makes his books fascinating to read and full of lively personal anecdotes.  However, one should always compare his accounts to that of academic historians who have dug out the original documents, since personal accounts are very often (I'd say "usually") self-serving adjustments of reality. --Zerotalk 02:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This discussion misses the point. Moyne was the victim, not the aggressor. He was killed by terrorists who wanted to spread discord, encourage repression, and ultimately force the UK to withdraw from Palestine. Essentially the same tactics are being used by ISIS today in Europe, though they prefer to kill random civilians rather than politicians. Moyne was a politician, and thus a target, he was not anti-Semitic. But even if he had been, that wasn't the reason he was killed.Royalcourtier (talk) 02:35, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Category:Anti-Semitic people

message: I let the rest of you fight over the quotes and who is a reliable historian, ect. I am just trying to clean up the intro. Lehi has its own entry so it doesn't seem necessary to define and explain their actions. Also removed long and interesting life fluff. Anyways...--Tom 21:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: looks fine to me , thanks. Amoruso 21:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: clean up of intro

message: * Moyne's speech in Lords in 1942 does not say that the Jews should go to Madagascar.  It doesn't matter who later claimed that it did when the Hansard verbatim transcript is available in hundreds of libraries. --Zerotalk 07:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: he probably mentioned it in that speech, before or after the transcript. but it's no longer there for a long time now. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Probably?'  There is no evidence for said comments. Amoruso, on this page you have been swift to attack others for the verifiability of their source material, yet your using the idea that Moyne 'probably' said it - even thought the evidence is to the contrary?  Fascinating. Indisciplined 14:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Whether Churchill was a Zionist or not is not related to this article. Most sources agree that Chrurcill vastly changed his views over time. The article says that the incident subdued his support further, which is what sources say. His general opinion is irrelevant. It's a stretch to say that the person who decided unialtrely to cut Transjordan from the Jewish national home is a great zionist supporter anyway. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: wrong, he was asked about Moyne specifically. You can read it, and he said he was sure of him. That's why he was questioned in the stand. In fact, he never said it wasn't Moyne, despite your wishes. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  He said "as I was leaving, I was told that the person I had spoken to was Lord Moyne", just like I reported. That was his explanation for why he believed it was Moyne. He gave no other explanation. And, yes, his autobiography DOES say that he had learned that he was wrong. Didn't you read it? --Zerotalk 10:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm the one who linked to the trial's transcript. He confirmed that it was Moyne. His autobiography doesn't say that, I don't know why you're lying since it's in the article. Someone told him it might have been someone else and apparently that someone was wrong. Amoruso 11:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exact quotation from Brand's autobiography: "I afterwards heard that the man with whom I spoke was not, in fact, Lord Moyne, but another British statesman. Unfortunately I have no means of verifying this."  I had it beside me, sorry you don't like it. --Zerotalk 13:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: This is what I said. But you lied by saying : "his autobiography DOES say that he had learned that he was wrong". You're actually refuting yourself. Amoruso 13:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: do you dispute the quotes or not ? If not, it really doesn't matter who used them for what purpose as long as they're accurate. It has nothing to do with holocaust denial. They were used in numerous place. I took them from my own material. IHR must have copy pasted from that. But I fail to see why it matters or what you accuse. You're being ridicilous. They're historians who wrote somethings in relevant in their history books, your original research in trying to find out who got what information is bordering on insanity. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't have an opinion on Reitinger or Poliakov because I only give opinions on sources I have checked.  You never checked them either and you got caught. I'm disappointed that you couldn't think of a better alibi.  While you are copy-pasting from Neo-Nazi web sites, I am in the library.  You should try it. --Zerotalk 10:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't caught at anything, and you further embarrass yourself by talking about irrelevant issues. Obviously IHR quoted Reitinger and Poliakov too, and that has nothing to do with anything. Amoruso 11:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That's even more ludricous. Reitlinger is a WP:RS source and it's pertinent to the article. We can also take out the whole Wasserstein quotations out and say they don't add anyhting. You have a peculiar habit of deeming WP:RS which you don't like for your political reasons as either unreliable, irrelevant or adding nothing. Please take your WP:POV wars out of wikipedia. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: This is why I suggest two pages / articles on Moyne. Before 1942-1944 he had no overt views on Jews or Arabs, yet the bulk of this debate is about Jewish politics and identity. I don't mind that - it should be be set down somewhere - that is why he died. Why not link the Holocaust angle to Churchill's article as well? But considering pre-1940 British political studies and Moyne's part in that era, there is no record that he had strong views either way. If there was any proof, I would be the first to add it in. I hope nobody minds a focus also on his life before Cairo; I am a British historian. Clearly Britain did not belong in Palestine and should have pulled out in about 1930, IMHO.Wikiman 08:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you expanded nicely about his general biography before, but since he's known for his assassination, like you mention, obviously large part of the article should be connected to the reason he was killed - which by the accounts relate to his role in not saving the hungarian jews and by obstructing refugee ships (and his other comments). also his specifc role was based as a target of course. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The story around assassination is his most famous 'contribution' to Israeli history, but if he had never been sent to Cairo the first 62 years of his life was of interest to us British. Personally, I very much wish that his death was the last in the conflict over (what was then) mandated Palestine. Of itself it didn't solve the whole problem in one stroke.Wikiman 09:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: you're right... I don't object the creation of two articles of course though I believe it's not customary. The conflict will probably never be solved, much due to blatant lies by obssesed propogandists like Zero. Not everybody acts on good faith alas... Amoruso 11:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikiman, your work is excellent.  Sorry that it is hard to work amidst this conflict.  Unfortunately we have here a representative of the extreeeeeme Israeli right wing who has never read a book more serious than Battleground by Shmuel Katz, who was the Irgun's main propagandist and a Greater Israel proponent.  To illustrate Katz's place in the political spectrum, he had a big fight with Menachem Begin when the latter agreed to use the phrase "Palestine Arab" in English communications with the Americans.  --Zerotalk 10:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zero, your trying to suck up here is truly awful. You are in constant violation of Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks so there you have it... you only show your ignorance all the time... honestly I don't know what you're doing in wikipedia except pushing your WP:POV. You're a notrious Arab propogandist who only read sources that are confirmed with the Hamas Charter, and then blame others for POV , LOL. Don't pretend as if you actually read books. Amoruso 11:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details 

message: You see why I suggested 2 pages? If mandated Palestine had been empty in the 1920s I don't think the British would have objected in the least bit to any number of Jewish immigrants, and setting up a state, but there were some people living there already and there had been some riots etc. by 1939. The wartime policy was designed to stop further killings in mandated Palestine, and was unpopular with both the more extreme Arabs and Jews. It may not have been flexible or imaginative, but it was designed to preserve the lives of all or most Jews and Arabs living there. 	 
 
Clearly by 1944 Jews-in-Palestine and Jews-in-Axis-countries had a unique bond with all other Jews. But from Cairo's point of view, only the Jews-in-Palestine were their subjects (horrible word, but that was the word) and responsibility, and they wanted to avoid provoking the Arabs. These 'subjects' had to be protected, as it were, from themselves. A parent-child relationship that we can say was silly, but typical of all empires. 'Mandated' meant impermanent. Iraq had been turned over to a friendly king; Palestine would be turned over when a solution acceptable to most Jews and Arabs had been worked out. You've gathered by now that my POV is anti-empire and Moyne was very much pro-empire; but that was usual for his background and time.	 
	
At least the extra detail I've put in can allow Israeli and Jewish-interest researchers to understand more about Lord M, as up to now he might as well have been a wooden gatepost. When I said (somewhere above) that London had sent out one of the best guys for the job, of course I meant 'best' in Churchill's mind; in light of their 20-year friendship, which became very personal from 1934. When Britain linked its pound to gold again in 1925, Churchill was Chancellor and Moyne was his Secretary at the Treasury. They had been political enemies in 1907-1921. I know that this earlier stuff is of no interest to Holocaust studies, but it is to the country that these men came from (and which wikipedia came from), and so I ask from a practical aspect, with no disrespect to any of your views: what about 2 pages, linked of course but separate? I don't want to post Moyne's views on Turkey in 1913, or about the Irish situation in 1916-21, or his comment on Indonesia in the 1930s, or his view of Australians at Gallipoli, if someone with a 1940s focus is going to edit the whole lot out.Wikiman 13:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: do we need 2 pages?

message: We have this sentence, which I will assume is an accurate report of what Bell writes:
: "Bell writes that, according to Gurion, a former Irgunist, Moyne had also opposed the formation of a Jewish Army, refused to allow the Struma to land in Palestine, sent another ship (the Atlantic) to Mauritius, and had ordered the Patria there as well before it was blown up.[44]"
:* "opposed the formation of a Jewish Army" - in Cohen, Retreat from the Mandate, we can find a detailed description of the argument within the British government about a Jewish Army, and we can see that in fact Moyne had a moderate position, neither a strong supporter like Churchill (who nearly always supported Weizmann's proposals) nor a strong opponent like Eden.
:* "refused to allow the Struma to land in Palestine" - the Struma was incapable of landing in Palestine so this makes no literal sense.  However Moyne was certainly involved in the decision making about the passengers on the Struma and some historians assign him a big share of the blame for the disaster.
:* "sent another ship (the Atlantic) to Mauritius" - makes no sense since the Atlantic never went to Mauritius.  More importantly for this article, the Atlantic affair occurred late in 1940 when Moyne was Joint Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture and had nothing to do with the Middle East.
:* "had ordered the Patria there as well before it was blown up" - this was also before Moyne had any Middle East responsibilities so he had nothing to do with it.
Of course Bell may be completely correct that "Gurion, a former Irgunist" made these claims, but why is it noteworthy that some non-famous person from an organization that was not involved in the assassination is able to get the dates all wrong?  --McKay 02:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: this report of Bell is actually 100% accurate. As to the Atlantic, in Semptember 1940 3 ships went from Romania to Israel - Milos, Pacific and Atlantic. They were all caught by the British. In the end, the Atlantic refugees, around 1750, were boarded on another ship and sent to Mauritius where they spent the next 5 years. What the quote means is that he ordered the transport of the ship there, effectively the ship. Moyne's "responsibilities" had nothing to do with it. According to the reports, he intervened with the Turkish and demanded these ship sending away. If you have other WP:RS about other issues you can add them. Amoruso 12:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amoruso, I just added a comment about Bell which you seem to have edited out. Wiki is all about differing opinions, fully referenced. I say include Bell, and consider his views with it. Healthy debate is better than editing, no?Wikiman 12:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Certainly Moyne was in the Dept. of Agriculture when the Patria was blown up (by Haganah); Bell didn't look that up. I'm coming to think that Bell's interest in the IRA (6 books) and Israel included an anti-imperial-British POV. I hadn't thought to link Moyne's Irish interest before; he was anti-Sinn Fein, the party of the IRA. Bell was Irish-American, pro-IRA and seemingly of the 'MOPE' persuasion (most oppressed people ever). Struma; the Turks and a Russian torpedo share some of the blame? Brand was genuine; not the whole 437,000 Hungarians could be saved, but was that murder or neglect or harsh policy? That's all still very arguable. At the end of the day, Jews in the Middle East could join the British army to fight nazism any time after 1939 if they wanted to do something about it.Wikiman 12:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: the sourced claim is that Moyne approached the Turkish personally on this. Being the anti-Jewish person that he allegdly was this makes sense. His current "job" is irrelevant. Amoruso 15:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You could well be right but we need more sources. Consider also Ida Rubenstein and tell us how antiJewish he must have felt during their long affair (the source is White Mischief, by Fox, 2nd edition; which was made into a film). Their Ritz Hotel suite floor all covered in lilies...very nice. Why would he spend time over the years with ultra-civilised Philip Sassoon if he had a constant problem with antisemitic urges? They enjoyed his company and neither of them needed to waste one second of their time with an antiJewish bore. Why didn't Weizmann, a leader of Zionism over decades, criticize him for being antizionist? All very peculierr. He had an affinity with the Turks in 1913-22, but lost interest after that. Anyway, I've also learnt a lot and thank you all very much.Wikiman 21:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What you're doing right now is WP:OR. His relationship with Jews really has very little to it. He was assassinated because he was conceived as anti Jewish from the point of view of people with the ideology with Lehi. Notice that I wrote "allegdly". You fail to notice that Weizmann has very little to do with it, since Weizmann was too perceived in the same way at the 1940's. This is exactly why Brand blames Weizmann as well, and why the Jewish leadership at the time had everything to do with Brand being detained. Brand was betrayed and deceived by the same people who made a pact with the British to begin with and who accepted the whole system beginning with the white paper in the name of helping the struggle against the Nazis. Lehi did not accept this way of thinking and for them this entire scope of thinking was anti Jewish. Moyne obstructed the landing of Struma, Patria and more, but Ben Gurion was guilty of even harsher events like the Altalena affair. They're all in the same "boat" so to speak. So yes, he wasn't anti Jewish to Weizmann but it's not something Weizmann should be proud of. What's important here is why he was assissnated and how he was perceived by those who assassinated him and to what means. We have  WP:RS who cited this as reasons, and I think that's what we need. We also don't need to go in a quest for the truth or go in vendetta to vindicate Moyne as an angel - that's not part of what an encyclopedia is, it's about citing sources. Wassertein was quoted extensively and bell has a few relevant quotes too. I think that more sources are always welcome. This way is appropriate and will suffice. Amoruso 21:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your desire to make Wikipedia into a Revisionist manifesto is rightly seen as an attack on it.  On the matters above you are confused between what he did in the Struma affair (which was a lot) and what did in the Patria affair (which was nothing).  At the time of the Struma affair he was Colonial Secretary and was involved officially.  --Zerotalk 01:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You were told in the past that your personal attacks are of no interest.  Ignored. Amoruso 03:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charges against Moyne 

message: The connection is obvious. The same question is raised "Why was Brandt been locked away while Jews were dying"... it's the same connection of allies not helping the Jews in their catastrophe. Amoruso 12:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why Auschwitz was not bombed

message: Do not delete sourced material again. Use talk if you wish to make drastic changes again. Thank you. Amoruso 15:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No material sourced to reliable sources was removed.  I only removed your personal crusade to prove that Moyne deserved to be murdered.  --Zerotalk 02:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And please stop commenting on person instead of content. Amoruso 02:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  While we are discussing you, did you check those two German sources you copied into the article?  --Zerotalk 02:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you questioning the holocaust now ? Amoruso 02:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Are you avoiding the question now?  You know the rules about citing, don't you?  --Zerotalk 04:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  LOL are you lecturing me about rules. Amoruso 10:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Warning to Zero0000

message: Concerning the claim that the assassins had support in Egypt: "Until now Arabic commentators have been silent. But now telegrams from Arabic organizations flood the court. They protest that the defense of these two boys in this Cairo courtroom amounts to a sponsorship of the Zionist case, and that it is intolerable that Cairo, the center of pan-Islam and the heart of the Arab league, should become a sounding board for Zionism." (Gerold Frank, The Moyne Case. Commentary, vol 1, p71).  Maybe they had supporters as well, but we don't have a good source for that and we can't just give one side of it. It's clear that we don't actually have good evidence either way for this. --Zerotalk 02:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Brenner made this connection, it's widely known. They had an Arab attorney Tewfik Pasha, you can read his speech in January 15 1945 Palestine Post. That speech was essentially that these were Jews fighting for independence of their native Palestine and not Zionists, and those words were very accepted by many Egyptians at the time - it run in the same line of nationalism vs the foreign British. That propaganda piece you mentioned is irrelevant to this case, it's not general comments of Arab league or whatever, it's a response from the actual trial. Amoruso 02:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wow, a speech made in court by Hakim's defense attorney, who was even an Arab (!), proves that the assassins had wide support in Egypt!  Even if the attorney didn't make that claim!  This is amazing.  I guess we'll also have to add Tewfik's statement that the assassins "had nothing to do with Zionism".  --Zerotalk 04:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this what I said ? <sigh> Amoruso 10:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your claim here about Brenner is yet another deception.  Brenner does not ever state that the assassins had support in Egypt. --Zerotalk 10:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can't understand what i'm writing or you're pretending not to understand and throw out childish insults... "The attack also was meant to show the efficacy of armed resistance and to demonstrate that the British were not safe anywhere as long as they remained in Palestine. Brenner believes the assassination did have some impact on the Arabs, particularly in stimulating Egyptian nationalism. He also makes an even more tenuous connection between Moyne’s death and the assassination of a former Prime Minister, Ahmed Mahir, who was pro-British. Apparently, some Lehi members advocated the formation of a “Semitic Bloc” to liberate the Middle East from foreign domination, an idea which made it possible for Palestinian Arabs to join the organization" - this shows the connection was made about liberation of foreign domination.  - this was mentioned also by the assassins and was accepted rather well, it's widely known. Amoruso 11:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You inserted "Ben Zuri and Hakim had the support of local Egyptians" into the article and when I questioned that you claimed that "Brenner made this connection".  That was a false claim.  But thanks for finally identifying your real source, which as usual you did not mention despite WP:CITE. --Zerotalk 13:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're not making sense even to yourself. Your allegations are as usual false. It's a shame you can't make simple leaps , I tried to show you the basic connection which explains the background of the support, which is widely supported by just about any book which mentions the killing of Lord Moyne. Amoruso 13:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  support in Egypt? 

message: Where exactly is this place? Amoruso 17:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jerusalem Hall of Heroism

message: On what evidence was Ira Hirschmann, one of the most effective aid workers of the war, dismissed as "a radical right-wing Zionist"? None is provided, although it is likely to have been added as a sort automatic "first name" to the word epithet "Zionist". 
Without support, I have removed it.Scott Adler 07:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ira Hirschmann

message: I am adding the word "Jewish" to discern the fact that Lehi was a Jewish Zionist organization. Since there are also non-Jewish Zionist organizations, I think the clarity is needed.
Marcadams99 15:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide sources for this claim? --Tom 17:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish Zionism 

message: Brand never expected to evacuate a "million Jews" to the British in 1944, so it follows that Moyne (if it was Moyne) could not have said: "...what can I do with a million Jews?". 
Brand's (enormous) problem was that he knew that he had to start with a lower amount, and hope that after the first exodus the British would take more. Also, Eichmann (on whom the whole deal rested) had said specifically that no refugees should go to Palestine. This doesn't come across in the article. It's worth examining the relevant part of the  Q & A from the Eichmann trial:
(Q= the court, A = Joel Brand):
Q. Yesterday you explained that you did not want to refer to the large figure of one hundred thousand Jews in the presence of English officers. 
A. I assume - I forget - that the reason was - yes, I was afraid of the English. In Budapest we had decided to say as little as possible to the English, not to give them any information, but to the Americans, and I knew what their position was, the White Paper, the certificates every month - I was afraid, I wanted to say as little as possible. 
Q. Eichmann's proposal was not to send these Jews to Palestine, but to a neutral country, and he said explicitly to you "not to Palestine," did he not? 
A. Yes, that was one of the dilemmas. 
Q. I am not asking about the dilemma. Why were you afraid to reveal the proposal to the English? After all, it had nothing to do with the White Paper. 
A. The Zionist organization to which I belonged had only one interest - emigration to Palestine; the Germans were interested in extermination. The world was interested in not letting the Jews in. I was stuck in the middle. I turned and twisted, in order not to step on either side's corns. 
Q. Mr. Brand, if you were not afraid to reveal to Mr. Sharett, then Shertok, in the presence of English officers, the proposal to release a million Jews, why were you afraid to reveal the detail that, if a positive reply were given, they would start with one hundred thousand? 
A. I am convinced that I said that the Germans would take the first step and release Jews. Today I have already said once that in the first months, and to this day...
Q. Mr. Brand, it seems to me that that is not an answer to the question. 
A. Your Honour, I must reply. I bargained with myself, as I said today: They will give five thousand, they will give ten thousand, a hundred and twenty-thousand, they will give a hundred thousand; I bargained with myself.
Anyone interested in the rest of the Q & A should look at and around: 86.42.222.44 09:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Brand's evidence on numbers in 1961

message: I've created an article on this ship at . There is plenty said about Rosaura in this article but the sources are offline and I don't have them. Assistance in expanding the article about the ship from these sources is welcome. Mjroots (talk) 09:46, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Rosaura

message: Zero has re-inserted the weasel-words "amplified by his assassins Lehi" and a lengthy apologia from one author (without volunteering the source). It is not debatable that Moyne made these remarks. If one wants to make excuses for his remarks, it should be a part of a balanced discussion, drawing on a number of sources - not cherry-picking from one source, not available to us. I have asked that he show a copy of the source, but he has ignored my request and chosen to edit war instead.
For the record, his recent contributions show a continuing pattern of deleting any information that reflects negatively on the Palestinians, including impeccable sources such as Benny Morris, and amplifying anything that reflects negatively on the Zionists. Pilusi3 (talk) 22:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact nobody ever quoted Moyne about the purity of the Arab race because Moyne never said anything like that, not in his 1942 speech or anywhere else.  The verbatim text of the speech is cited in the article, so checking is easy.  Meanwhile, Pilusi3 deleted the contrary opinion while leaving its sources as if they supported the false version.  Such editing is not tolerated around here. Zerotalk 23:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "In fact", Moyne is quoted by numerous sources as making the remarks. Other sources may disagree, but if you're going to give the full spectrum of opinion, you can't just cherry-pick your sources and statements. Your opinion on what is true and false is not relevant. If "checking is easy", then, for the third time, PLEASE PROVIDE THE SOURCE! Pilusi3 (talk) 00:00, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I told you it is in the article already. Zerotalk 03:59, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zero edit warring over speech content 

message: The Portuguese Wikipedia article for Walter Guinness is at :pt:Walter Guiness.  Should this be moved to :pt:Walter Guinness (with two n's?)  Thanks!  GoingBatty (talk) 01:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Zerotalk 01:59, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't read Portuguese, so I don't see a "Move" button on the Portuguese Wikipedia.  Anyone here know how to move it?  Thanks!  GoingBatty (talk) 02:46, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI - the move was completed in June 2013.  GoingBatty (talk) 02:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about Portuguese Wikipedia article 

message: This campaign medal which Moyne received for his Boer War services never entitled recipients to be called "QSAM" as a postnominal abbreviation.  I will therefore delete the letters used as postnominals in this article's infobox.Cloptonson (talk) 21:05, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Queen's South Africa Medal

message: We appear to see nothing of his interest in Jewish and Palestine matters until the section headed Blood For Trucks Proposal, about an affair of early 1944, yet Moyne was publicly expressing interest in them before then, notably his 1942 speech on Jews in the British Army which appears in the middle of the narrative about his murderers' trial.  I suggest the material be looked at to see if there are details that could be moved to earlier in the page than they appear now.Cloptonson (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Having seen no comment raised, I have moved the subsection Moyne's 1942 Speech to a point after Later Political Career and before Blood For Trucks Proposal, redesignated section heading Moyne's 1942 Speech as Views, and grouped the two subsections under a main heading Moyne, Jews and Palestine. Thus the reader is introduced to his interest in the topic ahead of his murder.Cloptonson (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also partitioned the paragraph about the Palestine partition proposals in the Aftermath section by moving details pre-assassination to be a distinct subsection under Moyne, Jews and Palestine, while retaining details on effects of the assassination within the Aftermath section.Cloptonson (talk) 21:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: stunning work on the article, my compliments. I have replaced the edited text because although I agree that it is wordy and needs editing it still pertains to the facts and places him and others in context. I will try to look at it this weekend, but please edit away. Thanks Edmund Patrick –  confer 06:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added further detail obtained from his article in the ODNB (which appears to give his views a more pro-Arab slant); ironically he would be cremated in a Jewish quarter of London.Cloptonson (talk) 12:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Good evening, Patrick. Interesting to know (I did not previously) the extent of his range of Jewish friends, which was possibly not known to his assassins.  Is it in any published biographical work? I would be happy to see it brought in, with citations.Cloptonson (talk) 20:10, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I hadn't read this page for some time. You'll find many references to Frank Goldsmith in Walter's WW1 diary, a fellow Suffolk MP and fellow officer in the Boer War as well as at Gallipoli in 2015. Then their brigade was also a part of the Egyptian garrison in the Senussi Campaign. It seems a lot of editors can't understand that one can have a cosmopolitan acceptance of Jews as members of the human race alongside a dislike of the harder formulas of zionism. But, whatever his personal views, Walter's hands were tied in 1944. He had an input to policy, but could not dictate it from on high. For me much the worst Lehi crime was Folke Bernadotte, who had saved thousands of Jews and others from the Nazis, and was then murdered by Lehi in 1948 by way of gratitude.PatrickGuinness (talk) 10:17, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvements suggested to World War II material

message: Wikipedia has a clare policy to avoid using the word "terrorist". Ad editor  has suggested that we violate this policy, because "that is what they were called at the tome".  I wonder of this same editor thinks we could edit all articles about turn-of-the-century african Americans, and describe them a N****s, since that;s what they were called at the time. SInce the answer to that is an obvious no,  the same should  be done here. Epson Salts (talk) 14:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be helpful if you linked to the policy page, and cited the exact words that oblige editors to avoid using the word 'terrorist'. At Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events) it is generally advised not to use it for article names, not ruled out. For the body of a text, where the majority of historical sources or historical texts, as here, refer to an incident as an act of terrorism, one usually follows that usage. Lehi was designated a terrorist group by two distinct governing entities, the British authorities of Mandatory Palestine, and by the government of nascent Israel. The terminology is in this case, furthermore, not a subjective spinning by adversaries since the technical literature informs us that 'Lehi viewed acts of terrorism as legitimate tools in the realization of the vision of the Jewish nation and a necessary condition for national liberation.' Arie Perliger, ‎William L. Eubank,  Middle Eastern Terrorism, 2006 p.37; Jean E. Rosenfeld, Terrorism, Identity, and Legitimacy: The Four Waves Theory and Political Violence, 2010  p.161 n.7 Nishidani (talk) 15:21, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I was that editor and it is custom and good practice to make use of the  facility, that way this conservation is bought to my attention as well. So  I agree that there are always choices to be made when it comes to what words to use and the mulitute of meanings! I agree with the excellent answer   has provided and if one researches elsewhere (quickly at this moment I'm afraid) [the Britannica] uses the words extremist, likewise [the Jewish virtual library] whilst [this website] describes them thus - "LEHI was a self-proclaimed terror group". We all, I am sure appricate, that these websites also have an agenda, be it well meaning or not. In answering the poorly made comparison yes the word nigger would be used - is used - within Wikipedia as this is a encyclopedia which hopes to educate and inform through knowledge, whether that be nice knowledge or not. The opening paragraphs (at least) here are worth a read. So what I believe Lehi were is totally irrelevant, at the time they were perceived as, and promoted themselves as terrorists. Where we go from here I do not know, building an encyclopedia and the words uses within it is always going to be problematic! All ideas appriciated.Edmund Patrick –  confer 08:00, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Lehi 

message: It is very odd to write that the group were "suddenly told not to move". By whom, and why? It would make more sense to write that the terrorists emerged from hiding (where?) when the vehicle arrived, and (who?) presented weapons and told the passengers not to move, or something of that sort.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Told not to move 

message: Thank you for kind reminder of WP:3RR which I was going to remind you of, but as you have deliberately crossed it I have to assume you knew what you were doing. I also asked you to look at the talk page which you either have (and ignored) or have not bothered to, (for what reason I cannot fathom). Anyway to assist the link is here. Wikipedia is a encyclopedia, which as editors we are trying to produce a platform of knowledge, presented in a factual way. As you will see from the link, the group called themselves terrorists, as did and do many others. I await your reply with interest.Edmund Patrick –  confer 10:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have read the external source. I have edited the article to reflect that source accurately. Now, if you want to fight for censorship know, I searched the term "Lehi terrorists" and got over four hundred hits, with the appearance of wide authoritative coverage. I searched "Lehi were not terrorists" and got one hit from deviantart website. I searched for "are not", "group were not", "group are not" and we've got nothing. Assuming the source to be accurate, the Jewish Agency is the claimant. It's spot on now. I agree, very much, with the principle about individuals. But the articles are being done on reliable sources and what they have to say. If you want to dispute, you will have to dispute that. You will have to dispute the reliability of the agency on the matter, and then you will have to dispute the 400 hits I got. I promise you, I have no interest in persecuting anyone. Follow the source. Search the word terror. Come back and tell me which bit I got wrong based on that.  ~ R.T.G 14:19, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:   Thank you for the clarification and work, and in joining in the conversation. Edmund Patrick –  confer 14:36, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Look, you cannot write this article from your mind alone. Refer to the sources or the discussion is closed. Weirdness is not defined by guidelines on Wikipedia as far as I know, except to say it is not relevant to content.  ~ R.T.G 17:09, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

text: The source that was being used is directly relevant, specifically is about, the incident in the article. The sources you have provided is specifically provided about writing the article to suit what your mind says, without mentioning the Moyne assassination, using what the minds of the Lehi themselves have said, at a time when it suits your point of view... Now once I revert your edit, I will be bound by other guidelines on the revert limit, to call for help, by people who will just tell you the same things, and block your access to this article. WP:NPOV#Bias_in_sources, WP:3RR, WP:PRIMARY, , You have to admit, people try to hold articles like this all of the time, VwM, and you believe you are warring against us who have responded, but your battle really is going to have to be with the sources. "Militant" and "paramilitary" from one source, I can tell you, does not forgo "terrorism" in any case, or the statements of the agency in any other case, while the other archival link is doi (404), with a note in the ref for a paygate. "Militant" means army-like, and/or with an attitude of force. "Paramilitary" means armed force not supported by the government. These suggest something other than terrorism, only because you have had no need to question them deeply, I assume. ~ R.T.G 18:40, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Doesn't the fact that they assassinated the subject of the article suggest it? . . Mean as custard (talk) 09:32, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

text: I don't think we should decide this on our own. For self-description we have it from before and after (for before, see the quote from Ha Khazit in the Goals and methods section of Lehi (militant group); it is very clear). For external description, the British authorities never called them anything else through their entire history. The mainstream Jewish organizations did too (even when secretly cooperating with them). Zerotalk 10:13, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, sum up what has been published elsewhere. Apologies about the Lehi, I haven't really heard of them before, so my input was based on that one Jewish Agency source. If this were a featured article, it would include the statements and opinions of the J. Agency, and any other notables, even the terrorists themselves, with balance. ~ R.T.G 12:32, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

text: I'm from Ireland. When I was growing up, it was like terrorism was part of our culture. ALL of the terrorist groups are paramilitaries. They organise as armies and batallions. It just means they play soldiers for real. It doesn't mean anything about anything else. Where I am from, calling yourself a paramilitary if you are not yet terrorists, is promising to commit terrorism in the future. And that is not the same everywhere, but paramilitary just means you have guns and dress up and give each other ranks. If you are paramilitaries, and you go off and shoot people you don't like, to frighten people into doing what you want, or because they refuse what you want, you are still paramilitaries, but you are now also terrorists. It's not a secret, but it has been hidden from you by your culture. ~ R.T.G 16:14, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

text: But what if they described themselves as a Sunday school/scripture class? What if they said they were a new kind of terrorist, the "lovable terrorists"? The guideline is WP:PRIMARY I believe, or it was. You write what someone else has published about them first if you can. Sometimes you use primary sources, when it proves what they say about themselves, but not to prove what they are, not on Wikpedia. Moyne was playing the major role of peace activist and paramilitaries assassinated him. That's pretty terrifying. When everything was fixed, it would not say that they were simply paramilitaries, but that similar actions are also terrorism, without requiring, or even accepting, sources beyond a dictionary to explain it. ~ R.T.G 19:00, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It's at WP:PSTS ~ R.T.G 19:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Even the IDF have described the Lehi as terrorists according to Israel National News. Haaretz: the terrorist activities of the Irgun and Lehi claimed 232 victims with another 370 wounded - men, women and children. University of Haifa: a couple of months after the establishment of the State of Israel, an operation which prompted the enactment of the Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance, the declaration of Lehi as a terror organization, the arrest of its leaders and the actual elimination of the organization. Not only is there a load of stuff like Israeli historians saying they regret killing in a terrorist way, the Israelis themselves apparently arrested a portion of them before drafting the rest into the IDF. Before you reply again, read this, Lehi_(militant_group)#Goals_and_methods. ~ R.T.G 20:57, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Certainly one can find sources (particularly English language sources which suffer from Wikipedia:Systemic bias in regards to supporting English nationalism and colonialism) that use the WP:TERRORIST label, while other sources avoid it. There's little reason for us to take a pro-British colonial POV and label the attackers as terrorist. Icewhiz (talk) 15:45, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just supporting what pro-Israeli sources said, including the Lehi themselves. What the challenging editor is presenting are pro-British-colonialism, if they are biased. You didn't check. If you want to put a nationalist slant on it, he was an important Irish figure who managed a huge influence on British politics. The pro-colonialists, sent him to the middle east, where all his peace talk, would get him killed. And he's dead now. Apologies. ~ R.T.G 23:27, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

text:  Icewhiz, Apparently you didn't read the part "all the mainstream Jewish leaders called it terrorism", nor the earlier part about Lehi even calling themselves terrorist, nor the part about the Israeli government officially declaring them terrorists. Your summary is completely counterfactual. Zerotalk 23:29, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  At various times they were labelled as such - inclusing as part of Mapai's undemocratic crackdown on opposing political movements (of all political stripes) - at other times their labelling haa changed. If we are to take the Israeli government labelling, for instance, since the 70s (at least) they are labelled as freedom fighters and veterans are recognized by the state. We could label all pre-1920 Irish freedom fighters as terrorists - the British labelled them as such.Icewhiz (talk) 04:54, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't presented anything. This article is not about how you or I feel. It's a summary of available resources. It's an advert for world literature, not the summary of a debate. If you want to debate the finished article, you'll have to agree on the goal first, at length. That is what the debate around here is for. See, your goal is to prove, that if I don't say everything good about your chosen subjects, that it is evidence I can't say anything good about them. But this article is not about what I say, is it? You'll have to agree on the goals if you want to debate the content. We already know what each other are trying to prove. I'm too experienced with Wikipedia to believe it represents an opportunity for my country. Wikipedia has revealed negative things to me about my cultures past which cannot be redeemed. I believe that has set me free without changing my actual biases. It just buries you further to point out that your government has been out in favour of your argument, as described in the sources given above. It's called an argument from ignorance. You'll have to agree on the goals of the site if you want to debate the content. ~ R.T.G 07:15, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  My government? I do not have a government at my beck and call at present - please retract that personal attack. Multiple sources (English and moreso non-English) refer to Lehi as freedom fighters (recognized as such by law in Israel - e.g.  - pre-1948 Lehi service counts as military service) or a paramilitary group. Adopting British gvmt terminology due to systemic bias in some English sources is shameful.Icewhiz (talk) 07:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

text:  We have clear policy of WP:TERRORIST should we mention in every article about Hamas attacks that its terrorist organisation? --Shrike (talk) 10:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Personally I think we should call their terrorist attacks just that, when the acts meet objective criteria for that description. I'm all for calling a spade a spade. The problem is that it would be an impossible battle to get the same criteria applied to things done by Jews. Zerotalk 13:18, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The attack by Jews are described as terrorist, the problem here is we describing not the attack itself but the organisation as terrorist which is discouraged --Shrike (talk) 13:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

text:  The saying "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter" doesn't work for the scholars who study such things. A better version is "every terrorist is someone's freedom fighter", because terrorism is a mode of operating and not a judgement of whether or not we should like it. It is perfectly consistent to call someone a terrorist and also consider them a freedom-fighter. It is true that Israel "rehabilitated" Lehi in the Begin era, for obvious reasons, but there are two problems with that.  First, Moyne was assassinated in 1944 and back then almost everyone described Lehi as a terrorist group. It was not just a British-ism then and it isn't now either. Second, the current Israeli description (more correctly, the description used by the Israeli right-wing) is fringe when considered from an international perspective. We don't do fringe (though if an official statement has been made on the Moyne murder it might be admissible for inclusion). It is dirt easy to find lots of modern academic authors who are happy with the word "terrorist" in relation to Lehi and especially in relation to Moyne's murder, among them many Israeli scholars. The case for following the great majority of sources on this is overwhelming. Anyway, they simply were not, objectively not, a "paramilitary" group in 1944. Tracking down Jews they didn't like to kill them (65% of their personal assassinations) is not paramilitary behaviour, nor is extortion of rich Jews and robbing banks, nor is the mass murder by bomb that the same people engaged in a few years earlier. You need to wait for the "United Front" before they did anything paramilitary. Zerotalk 13:18, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Should we go about and label the Irish Republican Army as terrorist throughout the project? Icewhiz (talk) 14:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's a good question, and the fact is that I've always argued against such labeling on Wikipedia. The main reason I have for a distinction here is that Lehi was unique in openly advocating terror by that name (טירור) and I don't like rewriting of history for ideological reasons. But I'm wary of opening cans of worms too. Zerotalk 06:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

text: WP:SOAPBOXING. Here is soapboxing:- Come you all with me to all the articles about government supported acts of terror first, and help me change all those to terrorism, including Israel, Britain, and Ireland, and I'll help you write terrorism on every Hamas article that is about a terrorist act. We will change the world right here on Wikipedia. Suddenly, it's not as important. The state is not your god. God is interested in overall progress, not the power of individuals. Evolution is a random event, not an exercise in power and mismanagement. Hrrm... Do unto others, as you would to yourself, if you can manage it. ~ R.T.G 14:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  terrorists / paramilitary? 

message: According to the Lehi page:  All that seems perfectly reasonable to me except the last part; totalitarianism is an immoral & pathetic ideology (so is any ideology advocating the initiation of force, for that matter). I personally consider Lord Moyne a legitimate target because he represented a regime which was actively initiating force against the Jewish community of Palestine. Anyway, my main point is, we can't call the group "terrorist" without any evidence. If the WP:reliable sources (RS) on the Lehi page refer to the group as "paramilitary" (which they do), then so must this page. If anyone wants to include RS that the individual assassins referred to themselves as "terrorists", then I have no objections. VwM.Mwv (talk) 13:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm from Ireland. When I was growing up, it was like terrorism was part of our culture. ALL of the terrorist groups are paramilitaries. They organise as armies and batallions. It just means they play soldiers for real. It doesn't mean anything about anything else. Where I am from, calling yourself a paramilitary if you are not yet terrorists, is promising to commit terrorism in the future. And that is not the same everywhere, but paramilitary just means you have guns and dress up and give each other ranks. If you are paramilitaries, and you go off and shoot people you don't like, to frighten people into doing what you want, or because they refuse what you want, you are still paramilitaries, but you are now also terrorists. It's not a secret, but it has been hidden from you by your culture. ~ R.T.G 16:14, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

text: But what if they described themselves as a Sunday school/scripture class? What if they said they were a new kind of terrorist, the "lovable terrorists"? The guideline is WP:PRIMARY I believe, or it was. You write what someone else has published about them first if you can. Sometimes you use primary sources, when it proves what they say about themselves, but not to prove what they are, not on Wikpedia. Moyne was playing the major role of peace activist and paramilitaries assassinated him. That's pretty terrifying. When everything was fixed, it would not say that they were simply paramilitaries, but that similar actions are also terrorism, without requiring, or even accepting, sources beyond a dictionary to explain it. ~ R.T.G 19:00, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It's at WP:PSTS ~ R.T.G 19:02, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Even the IDF have described the Lehi as terrorists according to Israel National News. Haaretz: the terrorist activities of the Irgun and Lehi claimed 232 victims with another 370 wounded - men, women and children. University of Haifa: a couple of months after the establishment of the State of Israel, an operation which prompted the enactment of the Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance, the declaration of Lehi as a terror organization, the arrest of its leaders and the actual elimination of the organization. Not only is there a load of stuff like Israeli historians saying they regret killing in a terrorist way, the Israelis themselves apparently arrested a portion of them before drafting the rest into the IDF. Before you reply again, read this, Lehi_(militant_group)#Goals_and_methods. ~ R.T.G 20:57, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Certainly one can find sources (particularly English language sources which suffer from Wikipedia:Systemic bias in regards to supporting English nationalism and colonialism) that use the WP:TERRORIST label, while other sources avoid it. There's little reason for us to take a pro-British colonial POV and label the attackers as terrorist. Icewhiz (talk) 15:45, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just supporting what pro-Israeli sources said, including the Lehi themselves. What the challenging editor is presenting are pro-British-colonialism, if they are biased. You didn't check. If you want to put a nationalist slant on it, he was an important Irish figure who managed a huge influence on British politics. The pro-colonialists, sent him to the middle east, where all his peace talk, would get him killed. And he's dead now. Apologies. ~ R.T.G 23:27, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

text:  Icewhiz, Apparently you didn't read the part "all the mainstream Jewish leaders called it terrorism", nor the earlier part about Lehi even calling themselves terrorist, nor the part about the Israeli government officially declaring them terrorists. Your summary is completely counterfactual. Zerotalk 23:29, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  At various times they were labelled as such - inclusing as part of Mapai's undemocratic crackdown on opposing political movements (of all political stripes) - at other times their labelling haa changed. If we are to take the Israeli government labelling, for instance, since the 70s (at least) they are labelled as freedom fighters and veterans are recognized by the state. We could label all pre-1920 Irish freedom fighters as terrorists - the British labelled them as such.Icewhiz (talk) 04:54, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't presented anything. This article is not about how you or I feel. It's a summary of available resources. It's an advert for world literature, not the summary of a debate. If you want to debate the finished article, you'll have to agree on the goal first, at length. That is what the debate around here is for. See, your goal is to prove, that if I don't say everything good about your chosen subjects, that it is evidence I can't say anything good about them. But this article is not about what I say, is it? You'll have to agree on the goals if you want to debate the content. We already know what each other are trying to prove. I'm too experienced with Wikipedia to believe it represents an opportunity for my country. Wikipedia has revealed negative things to me about my cultures past which cannot be redeemed. I believe that has set me free without changing my actual biases. It just buries you further to point out that your government has been out in favour of your argument, as described in the sources given above. It's called an argument from ignorance. You'll have to agree on the goals of the site if you want to debate the content. ~ R.T.G 07:15, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  My government? I do not have a government at my beck and call at present - please retract that personal attack. Multiple sources (English and moreso non-English) refer to Lehi as freedom fighters (recognized as such by law in Israel - e.g.  - pre-1948 Lehi service counts as military service) or a paramilitary group. Adopting British gvmt terminology due to systemic bias in some English sources is shameful.Icewhiz (talk) 07:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

text:  We have clear policy of WP:TERRORIST should we mention in every article about Hamas attacks that its terrorist organisation? --Shrike (talk) 10:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Personally I think we should call their terrorist attacks just that, when the acts meet objective criteria for that description. I'm all for calling a spade a spade. The problem is that it would be an impossible battle to get the same criteria applied to things done by Jews. Zerotalk 13:18, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The attack by Jews are described as terrorist, the problem here is we describing not the attack itself but the organisation as terrorist which is discouraged --Shrike (talk) 13:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

text:  The saying "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter" doesn't work for the scholars who study such things. A better version is "every terrorist is someone's freedom fighter", because terrorism is a mode of operating and not a judgement of whether or not we should like it. It is perfectly consistent to call someone a terrorist and also consider them a freedom-fighter. It is true that Israel "rehabilitated" Lehi in the Begin era, for obvious reasons, but there are two problems with that.  First, Moyne was assassinated in 1944 and back then almost everyone described Lehi as a terrorist group. It was not just a British-ism then and it isn't now either. Second, the current Israeli description (more correctly, the description used by the Israeli right-wing) is fringe when considered from an international perspective. We don't do fringe (though if an official statement has been made on the Moyne murder it might be admissible for inclusion). It is dirt easy to find lots of modern academic authors who are happy with the word "terrorist" in relation to Lehi and especially in relation to Moyne's murder, among them many Israeli scholars. The case for following the great majority of sources on this is overwhelming. Anyway, they simply were not, objectively not, a "paramilitary" group in 1944. Tracking down Jews they didn't like to kill them (65% of their personal assassinations) is not paramilitary behaviour, nor is extortion of rich Jews and robbing banks, nor is the mass murder by bomb that the same people engaged in a few years earlier. You need to wait for the "United Front" before they did anything paramilitary. Zerotalk 13:18, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Should we go about and label the Irish Republican Army as terrorist throughout the project? Icewhiz (talk) 14:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's a good question, and the fact is that I've always argued against such labeling on Wikipedia. The main reason I have for a distinction here is that Lehi was unique in openly advocating terror by that name (טירור) and I don't like rewriting of history for ideological reasons. But I'm wary of opening cans of worms too. Zerotalk 06:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

text: WP:SOAPBOXING. Here is soapboxing:- Come you all with me to all the articles about government supported acts of terror first, and help me change all those to terrorism, including Israel, Britain, and Ireland, and I'll help you write terrorism on every Hamas article that is about a terrorist act. We will change the world right here on Wikipedia. Suddenly, it's not as important. The state is not your god. God is interested in overall progress, not the power of individuals. Evolution is a random event, not an exercise in power and mismanagement. Hrrm... Do unto others, as you would to yourself, if you can manage it. ~ R.T.G 14:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conclusion 

message: I'd like to addn this with a source; he was accepted onto the SWC staff in October 1918 based on "knowledge of French and the Eatsern Theatre besides staff experience".PatrickGuinness (talk) 13:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The link is Supreme War Council.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PatrickGuinness (talk • contribs) 13:37, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:39, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Supreme War Council 1918 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:39, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: I have uploaded an image on wikimedia of Walter Guinness that is out of copyright, please can someone add it: Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne.png PhotoBooth1111 (talk) 12:05, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks Edmund Patrick –  confer 13:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 January 2020 

message: Edits contained swapped dates, swapped Kings and odd order of listings. I rolled back so may have removed a correct edit somewhere along the line but after a view of Kashmiri Munda talk page I felt in the first instance it was the best thing to do.Edmund Patrick –  confer 09:03, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  rollback of Kashmiri Munda edits. 

message: I added an official statement that I found in 1944 Haaretz. Here is the Hebrew text in case someone wants to improve the translation. Feel free to correct it if it doesn't match the image.
: לישוב בארץ
:יחד עם כל העולם התרבותי נזדעוע הציבור היהודי באשר הוא לשמע הפשע המתועב של רצח המיניסטר הבריטי במזרח התיכון — פשע מתועב שבעתים, כשהעם הבריטי עומד זה השנה הששית בגבורה מופלאה ובמאמץ עליון, יחד עם בעלי־ברית, במלחמה לחיים ולמות עם האויב הנאצי. הפשע המחריד הזה שבוצע מחוץ לגבולות ארצנו ואשר נסיבותיו טרם נתבררו, מעלה מחדש את הסכנה הגדולה והולכת של כנופית הטרוריסטים הקיימת עדיין בארץ. הטרור בארץ עלול להצמית את סיכויי מאבקנו המדיני ולהרוס את שלומנו הפנימי. הישוב נתבע להקיא מתוכו את כל אנשי הכנופיה המהרסת והמחריבה הזאת, לשלול מהם כל מחסה ומקלט, לא להיכנע לאיומיהם ולהושיט את כל העזרה הדרושה לשלטונות למניעת מעשי הטרור ולביעור ארגונו, כי בנפשנו הדבר.
: …הנהלת הסוכנות היהודית לארץ ישראל
:הועד הלאומי לכנסת ישראל
Zerotalk 07:12, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official statement on the assassination.