Talk:Shadow of the Colossus/Archive 3

message: Could the "fossil" found in one of the viral marketing sites be supposedly resembling #12 Pelagia and not #2 Quadratus as this page sugests? The fossil was found submerged in ice, and Pelagia was a water Colossus. Also, regardless of the horns, I think that it's head has the same bucket-ey head with the same grill face as Pelagia. Possible? UserNameless 17:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quadratus or Pelagia? 

message: What about all the talk about people mistaking Wander for Wanda in the European version section.  I kind of like having it in the article because, silly as it is, the confusion is game-related and understandable.  On the other hand, it's been resolved to my satisfaction and, in my opinion, there is no real doubt about what his real name is (nor about Agro's name).  So, does it deserve mention or should we remove it?
I rewrote the paragraph in what I hope is a clearer manner, but the "problem" is not entirely confined to the European version.  What say you all?—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 04:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's definitely worth making mention of, along the same lines as the Aeris/Aerith thing with Aerith Gainsborough. That said, your rewrite isn't as clear as it should be, as it doesn't make mention of the fact that the Japanese developers chose an English word for the character's title, and, thus, their transliteration resulted in a pronunciation of "Wanda," which would be represented with those exact characters in a direct romaji translation. While anyone with a moderate understanding of Japanese would understand this as being the point, bearing in mind that the general English-speaking/reading populace does not have so much as this level of familiarity with Japanese, those key words should remain within the explanation. Ryu Kaze 08:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, it's inaccurate to say "this mistake has plagued the game in all its versions." The NTSC manual used "Wander." The only confusion that arose among the NA gamers was because it was originally announced as "Wanda and the Colossus." To say "this mistake" makes it sound like you mean the manual/in-game inconsistency, which only plagues the PAL version. Ryu Kaze 08:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way again, the explanation should read that the confusion is over the character's title and not his name, as his name is unknown. The official PAL website states that his name is unknown and he's merely called "Wander" because - well, it's obvious why. Ryu Kaze 09:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am pleased with some of the changes you've made to the paragraph, but I still think it is a bit too long, and somewhat redundant in places.  Obviously, my own knowledge of Japanese is minimal—just enough to get me in trouble with people who really know it—so I am forced to bow to your wisdom in cases of its usage.  I would argue, however, that Wander is the character's name for purposes of the game.  It may be that, were he a real person, his name would be something else, but in the context of the script and the credits, he is Wander, and thus "title" is the wrong word.  You wouldn't replace a reference to the Star Child in 2001: A Space Odyssey with something else, even though no one ever addresses the being so designated in those exact words.—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 20:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, that's fine. I can see your point. Glad it's to your liking on the whole. Ryu Kaze 22:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wanda vs. Wander 

message: I have taken some digital photographs of my trip to the top of the Shrine of Worship.  Does anyone feel it would be appropriate (or inappropriate) to add one of them to the article?—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 07:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt there's anything wrong with it. Let's have a look. Ryu Kaze 04:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It is quite good as a thumbnail, and isn't half bad when enlarged. It's a really good shot too. Go with it. Ryu Kaze 03:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: ditto Tani unit 04:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All right: I've added it.  But I'm not sure about placement.  On my high-resolution screen, it looks all right, but on a smaller screen it might break into the section below.  Someone police it?—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 07:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image usage 

message: Hm... in this interview that came out yesterday, it looks like the connection's been confirmed as both games taking place in the same world and as SotC being the prequel, with Wander starting the line of horned boys. Ueda didn't emphasise it being one take on things this time: Wired interview
See what you think. Ryu Kaze 20:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. The most suprising thing is... What was the story of Ico about if he wasnt originally going tohave horns?I'm glad about this confirmation of the timeline and the world. -- Psi edit 20:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, it is. It doesn't really remove much of the ability of people to use their imaginations either. Ryu Kaze 22:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Speaking of confirmations, I just climbed the shrine again, and went out along the bridge, looking for the castle, and I was able to find it.  I've made a small change to the article to reflect its whereabouts more precisely.—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 22:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Hm... reading the interview again, he goes from saying that there's no specific connection timeline wise to saying that it's in the same world and then back to saying that Wander begins the line of horned boys. Maybe he was still trying to go with that "it's not definite" thing but it was lost in translation? Well, until we're given reason to think otherwise, I imagine this is still confirmation. "SotC came before Ico" still isn't all that specific in terms of timeline. Could have been hundreds or thousands of years apart. There were like 50 sarcophogi for horned boys in the Queen's castle, I think, so if only one -- or even just a few -- came per generation, then it may have been quite a long time. Ryu Kaze 01:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The sarcohphogi bears the Dormin archeticture along with the rest of the castle. I dont think they were originally meant to be safricial abandonement altars for the horned children. From the international site, it tells that the animated shadows of the Dormin are actually the shadows of the Dormin who is beyond the physical world and can only show himself through his shadow. This likeley applies to Ico's shadows aswell. -- Psi edit 05:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connection to Ico confirmed(?) 

message: Hey people look the picture at this page. Looks kind of like inspiration for Malus (16th Colossus). -- Psi edit 02:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey!  That's really cool!—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 07:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isnt it? Also MJolnir's thunder theme/power, really applies to Malus dont you think? -- Psi edit 00:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malus 

message: Hey, what if by "Shadow of the Colossus" in the game's English title they're referring to the oily black fluid that pours out of them when they die? More specifically, what if it refers to Dormin? (64.230.46.167)
:I'm assuming it's a reference to how long their shadows are because of their size. In any event, "Shadow" is just the English title, so I wouldn't look too deep into it. Ryu Kaze 05:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It could also refer to the 'dark side' of killing the colossi, see the story section for an explaination (careful for spoilers) Felsir 19:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The title was changed for the English-speaking market because "Wanda" is a female name in these countries.  It's a coincidence (see the explanation in the European version section of the article), but I bet you ten bucks the game would not have succeeded so well if they'd left the title alone.—ZorkFox (ষTalk) 20:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  It puts the ''Shadow'' in ''Shadow of the Colossus'' 

message: Does anyone think its worth noting that Wander's cloak has the same symbols as on the giant bridge. Has anyone noticed this? And is it worthy of noting anywhere? Dragosani 03:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Wanderer's cloak 

message: At the end of the game, when Wander is almost completely possessed by Dormin, he is seen as an almost corpse-like image of himself, results of his body slowly being taken over by Dormin's souls. When Emon ordered Wander's death, he is shot in the thigh and then fatally stabbed (thorugh the heart?). He bleeds the blood of blackness as the Colossus does (however its proven that Wander's blood is infact red, taking away the possibility that the blood in this game may have just merely been colored back)
Wander rises from the ground exhausted and in great pain, as he removes the sword from his chest. After trying to reach out to Monno, Wander falls to the ground. Now in this summary, it seems like its saying that Wander is dead, but is he really? I actually believe that since Dormin had given Wander such strength as it transformed Wander's body, that the wound did not kill Wander (and gave him the strength to actually pull it out, and not die instantly). I actually believe that Wander collapses because he's exhausted from the 16 trails he had to complete, in a mass amount of pain from being shot/stabbed, and ultimately, he sight that although he had done what Dormin had asked of him, Monno seemingly is still dead, everything he did was for nothing. I think at that point, Wander cannot take anymore pain (physical and emotional) and collapses to the ground, not being able to fight off Dormin's possession any longer.
When Emon opens the portal, most of Dormin was removed of Wander, allowing him to regain control of his still corrupted body, now concious and still won't allow himself to give up on Monno. He runs to her, despite everything, and is tragically pulled away from her.
I'm wondering if thats the case. It doesn't seem like Wander was dead, as much as it seemed as if he had briefly lost all hope. I mean, he's still alive once Dormin is (mostly) removed from him. ---JackRaiden
:Technically, Wikipedia's not a place for theories so much as documented facts, so I'm not sure of the relevance to this here. That said, I and another fan have written a huge plot and theory analysis for the game which you can see here. Ultimately, it's up to the player to decide things themselves, but his collapse, veiling by darkness after falling (the same as when the Colossi are killed) and subsequent status as a vehicle for Dormin suggest that he, did, indeed die. Some fans, like myself, have concluded that the Dormin revived Wander, either as thanks for having helped, as a means to carry their energy on into the future or both. Ryu Kaze 03:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In case anyone was curious, after discussing it on GameFAQs, JackRaiden and I are starting to reach a mutual consensus that Wander was probably revived because his wounds were gone just like Mono's were after her resurrection, and that the Dormin tried getting some of their power to safety in Wander. Now we're theorizing on the Evil Queen of Ico utilizing  the power passed down by Wander through his descendants and wondering what became of that power. XD Disagreements ever lead to collaborative theorizing; it's a beautiful thing. Ryu Kaze 05:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Wander Die or Give Up? 

message: I have removed the following from the article because it doesn't seem very encyclopedia (uses a lot of second person, and includes some first person, a huge no-no).  It seems like it's just abusing a glitch to get to an area that wasn't intended to be reached, whereas the "Get to the top of the temple" trick seems to be intended to be reached, and only has a short blurb, not a detailed direction...
Here's the text I cut:
:*How to launch the Wanderer into the large room where Colossus 6 came out of—Here is the best strategy to get into the 6th Colossus's large room or lair: Get the 6th Colossus as close to the large room where he came out of, as possible. Now wait until he smashes the floor with his hand. Note: This may take a while. Also, when he smashes his hand down, be sure he is still as close as possible to the large room. Now, immediately after he smashes the floor, grab onto his arm/hand fur. Now he will start flinging you around with his arm violently. If when he swings his arm, you are near the large room, let go of his arm and you hopefully, will be flung into the large room. That is exactly what I did. It took me a few tries, but I pulled it off, so anyone can get into this room. This is the best strategy to get the Wanderer into this large room were Colossus 6 game out of. To sum everything up: The only thing of any significance is: The large room has a strange, large, blue, central, symbol on the floor. Also, the Colossus just stands as close as possible to the edge of the room endlessly walking forward and stomping the floor. When I tried everything possible in the room, using secret weapons, moving against the dark walls, shooting flash arrows, ect. I discovered nothing further. I eventually gave up and just jumped back down. It's not a piece of cake and takes much practice and patience to get in that mysterious large room. 
:Discovered by Jeremy Prusak aka Legaiaflame2
What do you guys think? -JC 19:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you were absoluely correct in the removal of that section. Wikipedia is not a gamefaqs,and encyclopediac articles do not endorse such informatoin. Excellent work. -ZeroTalk 19:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not exactly a game guide or anything suitable for GameFAQs, but I'm not sure if it's worth putting in this article.  Saying you can climb the temple is one thing, because it's a rather huge thing, seems intended, and requires a lot of time and effort...  Saying you can get into an unintended area by flining yourself through walls isn't.  There's also a glitch where you can jump up to some ledges on Agro, many of which aren't actually solid (ie never intended to be walked on), and let you fall through them into stuff, which lets you see much more around you (or fall infinitely do you death, whatnot)... but those don't get included here, and with good reason :P I just moved it here instead of simply taking it out because I am heavily opposed to removing things without any discussion, so if I remove anything longer than a few words, I tend to post about it on the Talk Page...  :)  -JC 19:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  If you haven't removed it, I would have. Irrelevant gameplay information, written from user's POV, has no place in this article. Good work. Tani unit 20:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the support.  I am in agreement.  I mean, if this was actually significant, a sentence or two is more than enough, but this is kind of ridiculous.  Climbing the temple is far, far more significant than this, and this has over twice as much text for it... and it's even got a credit to it, which means it's probably a bit of vanity...  I'll keep up the good work with keeping an eye on the page ^_^ After all, we all want Wikipedia to be the best there is.  I assume the person who added this to the page felt he was helping, but I really don't see it as being appropriate (or particularly in an encyclopedic style, even)... I mean, it's a neat trick, but it's important for these kinds of things to show why they're important.  This just didn't seem to fit the bill... -JC 20:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this trick have any place here? 

message: You're not permitted to link directly to GameFAQ's FAQs.  I'm going to make appropriate edits. -JC 03:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linking directly to GameFAQ's FAQs. 

message: [quote]Some fans note similarities in appearance between Mono and the Queen in ICO, leading to speculation that the Queen is Mono many years into the future.[/quote]
WOW. Oh my god I would have never thought. This cant be, can someone explain this to me. The Sweet Mono is the Queen in Ico.
Now we all know Ico is the one in the long line of Wanders Cursed Progeny.
Dormin dident possess Wander. Dormin is nothing but the very essences of the Demons why he refers to himself as "we" and its seen when more of those dark creatures being absorbed into the Dormin (Them) in the end hence Dormin is not a Demon but the Darkness the Taint of the race called Dormin. Ok so Dormin sais youv "broken my body" which suggests he had one body hence one being, but I don't just dont know. While in the Quran God Refers to himself as "we" could this be the reason Dormin is doing so to? He couldn't have possessed Wander he most likely tainted his soul and corrupted him for the Demons (Dormins) to absorb into him and become the living being Dormin. Looking at dormin you can see that he cant be a single unit he seems more like a "Blight" or Taint. He isent evil thats for sure (Evil=Acts in his own interests no matter what the cost to others) and in Dormins case thats not true he warns wander st the start and even at death keeps his word... In fact I think Ueda just managed to create the first Real villain. Not one who is a mad man or lunatic or just pure evil but a godly sort of creature that is trying to revive itself(What dormin will do after words I dont know). 
What about Wanders memory. Iam putting all my hope in all that is decent that he remembers at least what has happened and what he has done! Its to great to leave to the dust!. I cant belive he would love and consummate with a girl who surly raised him like her son and then have her children which grow to be a thousand year epidemic of Cursed boys with horns. He wasent killed he was just Reverted sucking all the taint he had in him but doing so also sucked what the taint was clinging to, his body, his age, his self whatever. But iam sure the effects of that spell emnon casted was meant to suck the taint but sucked with it Wanders being a bit. But iamn hoping his memory is still intact and that when he grows up enough it will come back to him. Hopefully.Kara Umi 21:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: mono is Queen?

message: 1.  The collosai names need a citation.  I see some conjecture in the archives that they are from some Japanese magazine feature, so placing that would be nice.  It just needs to be verifiable.  If it isn't verifiable, it should be deleted as per WP:VERIFY.
:It says on the page that it comes from the preorder Japanese version "making of" CD.  Can anyone find a source that says this is true?  I'm not sure where to look, but it'd likely be a Japanese source (ie a touch hard to find).  I just remove a citation needed tag, but not because it has citation (I think it does, a little, although it's true it needs citation for verification of that source as a source, I guess?) but because it broke the page horribly :P Feel free to re-add it as long as it doesn't cause everything to fall into that last table block.  :)  -JC 06:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any suggestions as to the name of the article for the soundtrack? Tani unit 00:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, the name of the soundtrack?  I think it was called Roar of the Earth, though I imagine that we would want things like "Shadow of the Colossus OST" to redirect there.--Weebot 17:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I moved the info to new page. Anyone is welcome to create appropriate stubs, categories, redirects, and add infobox and cover image. I'll try to get to it later if noone does it by then. Tani unit 19:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Just because you don't understand a theory or disagree with a theory doesn't make it any less legit.
Your edit is reverted. Tani unit 22:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Anonymous, this isn't Tani unit's theory, or any particular person's.  It isn't Original Research.  Dormin~Nimrod connections are more than just in name - there are a lot of connections between them... and many web sites discuss these in more detail.  It's only a brief aside showing that there are similarities between the two, so it's not even a "theory" per se.  Also, it very much has place in a Japanese game - various game directors, including Japanese ones - often look to other sources for inspiration.  Please do not delete this material again.  -JC 05:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is not a database for facts.  It is based on verifiability... and consensus.  You really should get an account here - there's no "troublesome to log into" problems - if you're going to claim you know all about what Wikipedia is supposed to be and how it works.  Then it might be easier to take you seriously.</br>I don't know where you're pulling that quote from.  Can you get a real quote?  I highly doubt there wasn't any intended connections between Dormin and Nimrod - just look at all of the similarities.  -JC 22:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I would also suggest you read Wikipedia:Resolving disputes.  -JC 22:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A couple things 

message: I am moving this to the talk page until our anonymous friend decides to stop reverting everything anyone tries to do.  I really don't appreciate people simply reverting my contributions when I'm trying to make sure things have cited sources.  You can't just remove something that has no citation - not if someone's trying to find sources for it.  In addition, this may have cited sources in the References section.  I did say it might, and put the "citation needed" in just in case it was needed.  I am greatly opposed to removing information from Wikipedia of any sort without any real need.</br>
So here's the text that keeps getting removed by anonymous user:</br>
:The character of Dormin was apparently inspired by the biblical character Nimrod. The primary connection made between the two is that Dormin is an anagram of Nimrod. Certain legends attribute the construction of the Tower of Babel to Nimrod. The Shrine of Worship could be seen as a representation of the Tower of Babel: it is the largest structure, by far, in the entire area, and is easily visible from almost every location, a visual that is consistent with popular interpretations of the tower legend. Furthermore, both Dormin and Nimrod were dismembered, and their pieces spread throughout the land. After Nimrod's death, his wife Semiramis claimed that Nimrod had become the Sun God. When Dormin speaks to Wander in the shrine, its voice seems to issue from a large hole in the ceiling where sunlight streams in.
Now, let's start.  Is there any references cited?  Any publications that talk about this game which suggest that there is some connection between Dormin and Nimrod?  It doesn't matter whether it's true, just as long as it's verifiable - especially because this just shows tentative connections.  All of this is already fact - if we simply change the first sentence to read "The character of Dormin shares many similarities with the biblical character Nimrod" then there is nothing even remotely untrue about that entire section... so anonymous user must simply hate the fact that someone saw these connections?  I'm really confused as to why anonymous user is upset...  And it wasn't Tani Unit or myself who put it up there, but someone long ago - and it's been all over the internet, I'm sure.  Any reputable sites suggest as much?  That'd be enough to have it verifyable, and by Wikipedia policy, be worthwhile in the article.  -JC 22:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I might be off here, but i think our anonemous friend seems to display a fanboy attitude towards this particular game-maker.
It is full known (as well as reflected in discussions archives of this page) that Ueda stated originally that the game has no connections to Ico despite all the similarities, only to retract that comment later and to confirm that the games are related. In light of this, i simply don't see why official confirmation or denial are of any relevance.
There is enough similarities to make this a solid theory, besides, it is presented as such, not as official canon of any sort.
Facts presented are not some rampant speculations like anon seems to suggest, but rather connections that are stated in game or can be observed in game by anyone. 
Tani unit 23:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, even theories that make perfect sense are not allowed on Wikipedia due to its verifibility requirement...  Just stating these connections isn't appropriate - there needs to be some kind of peer-reviewed publication that discusses such a connection.  Do any online gaming sites do so?  That would be enough.  Otherwise, the theory that Mono may become the Queen from Ico should be allowed in, as well, and that one is most definitely tenuous at best.  If the only speculators are a few players of the game who saw the naming link and pulled everything else out, that's not appropriate for Wikipedia no matter how correct any individual point is.  I'd personally like this to be in the article, since if it's removed, someone is going to add it back in somewhere along the way almost certainly.... because it's so widespread, I would assume it's appropriate for the article.  If it'll be added in eventually by someone who doesn't read this part of the Talk Page, then shouldn't it be part of the page?  I don't know, it just seems silly to remove something that someone else is definitely going to want to add back in later on due to it being so widespread.  Sigh.  -JC 23:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think fan speculation warrants it's own section, let alone an entire article. There is a lot of nonsence out there, and even the best theories are just that - theories. As far as Dormin's character, let me clarify - I'm not the one who made the connections or wrote said text. I simply police this article due to a large number of users who constantly make bad edits, and vandalism to this article is not uncommon either. If the removal is warranted under wikipedia guildelines I'll go along with it. Tani unit 02:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Please don't insult me by posting rules and asking me to reconsider my position after I already agreed with you and thoroughly explained that;
a) I did not write the section in question
b) I don't mind any edits as long as they are justified
c) I already agreed with the edit and removal of the section.
I realize I might sound defensive on this, but your last post read as very patronizing.
I agree with the edit so that's that.
Oh, and I happen to be a he.
Lastly, I think wee should take any further discussion that does not pertain directly to the article to one of our talk pages. :) Tani unit 10:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

text: If it was meant for me, I suggest you read some of the rules, too.  Simply re-reverting a revert is not standard Wikipedia procedure.  I strive to ensure conflict resolution happens in the best possible way - by people discussing things out on the talk page before huge changes are made to the article (such as things being removed).  At the very least, you should have moved this section to the Talk Page (just like I did) and request a citation, rather than simply eliminating it and saying "There's no proof!" like a child would - maybe there is proof?Like I said earlier, if even one online site (not someone's personal site, but something like IGN) mentioned this connection, it would be viable to put up, as it would have a reference.  For all I know, one of the reference sites already up mentions it - that's why I was asking if citation was needed.  If nobody can come up with anything, then there's no choice but to remove it from the article, but I do think people should be given a chance to do so.  Removing it completely does not all that.   -JC 23:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dormin's Character