Talk:Antisocial personality disorder/Archive 2

message: [I have been really bold tonight and added a section on ASPD in fiction. I have tried to chose characters closer to the definition of ASPD as it stands, and is most correctly used today. Obviously many more characters could be added and the definition could be enlarged and improved upon (it's far from perfect), it's just a beginning. So read and give thought before knotting a rope and hanging it from a tree in preparation for lynching me. I believe this whole article needs to veer away from information specific to the psychopath, and, in the strictest sense, inapplicable to ASPD, and into a fuller definition of ASPD as it stands. ASPD is NOT Psychopathy, but it IS an important, lamentably widespead, psychiatric and sociological phenomenon in it's own right, worth far better definition than it is currently getting here. So, what say you? Can we replace the psychopath specific information with more relevant equivalents? A bit at a time, so as to leave no "bald patches"? --Zeraeph 05:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ASPD in Fiction

message: I don't recall whether Dr. Hannibal Lecter is called a sociopath in the movie, but I do know his diagnosis is discussed in the books, and he does not meet the criteria for a sociopath.  At one point Clarice Starling says, in a discussion with him, "I'm still waiting for the shallowness of affect."  He's also very aware of social rules and expectations, and tends to kill "the rude."  A sociopath wouldn't even notice those things, right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by  Dseilhan (talk • contribs).
:Probably not - an interesting component of those with APD is the flexibility of their "morals".  As an example, they might view stealing or infidelity as a particularly eggregious offense - one worth killing over.  They key is to remember that those with APD have a fundamental dysfunctionality when perceiving the concept of morality.  That is to say, they are not immoral, just a-moral.  Make sense?  As a pop-culture example, see Patrick Bateman in American Psycho: he killed people who randomly irritated him or were offensive in some fashion.  Thanks - Aaron 6.21.2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by  66.196.129.7 (talk • contribs).
::Patrick Bateman is more of a true psychopath, he kills as a hobby with no actual perception of what conscience or morality might actually consist of and why he should have them.
::As a character Hannibal Lecter is psychopathologically flawed in that the background in "Hannibal" is not a true match for his pathology (others eat the most precious thing in the world to you so you grow up with a compulsion to eat anything that sets your teeth on edge? I don't THINK so! ;o) ) BUT, allowing for that, Hannibal's sociopathic tendencies are environmental in origin which would rule out psychopath and sociopath (incidenatally, in the book, and the movie, he is referred to as a "pure psychopath" NOT a sociopath), so is he truly AsPD? See the criteria:
#failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest 
#deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure 
#impulsivity or failure to plan ahead 
#irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults 
#reckless disregard for safety of self or others 
#consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations 
#lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another 
::Seems to me he fits 1 and 7 to an extent (though not thoroughly, for one thing, I cannot conceive of him behaving unlawfully outside of the dictates of survival or his compulsion, for another, he kills and eats, it is not my impression he would be too pleased with himself if he took up hurting, mistreating and theft), but it you have to fit 3 criteria for a diagnosis. --Zeraeph 19:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seconded the need to revise the list of fictional criminals 

message: Petronix is a pseudonym used for some guy's fan site about his fascination with sociopaths. His so-called Sociopathic Bible constitutes his own original research (occasionally even in disagreement with expert consensus) and is unsuitable as a reference in a Wikipedia article. If I recall correctly, I removed the link from this article (or perhaps from Psychopathy) before, but it's back. Antisocial personality disorder and Psychopathy are both serious articles about established psychiatric and legal constructs that should not be tainted with this guy's infotainment.--NeantHumain 19:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Petronix and Sociopathic.net 

message: Just a small thing, the figure of 3% of men and 1% of woman is an estimated figure for the US only. It's lower in other parts of the world. (And possibly higher in other parts still). Could you please specify. Thanks.
Hi there - just wanted to point out that the stats seem to have changed. It now reads (Dec 16,2006) 4% of men and 7% of women are thought to have some form of antisocial personality disorder ... and I'm sure the stats will change again sometime. However as they currently stand it contradicts a later statement that "APD is diagnosed much more frequently in men than in women" (yeah, when you are diagnosed with it, you are thought to have it). Could someone please look into this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by  124.177.180.228 (talk • contribs) 
:Can't find a citation for specific statistics yet but I did find one for the prevalence being far greater in men than women, so I have changed it.
:I suspect somebody has been amusing themself at the expense of the article.--Zeraeph 03:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3% of men and 1% of women... 

message: Am I the only one to realize that the so-called "characteristics/symptoms" section has almost zero information on either of these two topics, and is rather a "Myth/Fact" session? Someone needs to do some serious work. While the "common misconceptions" section certainly wouldn't be out of place, it serves no purpose to stick it at the top of the page before the topic you're discussing has even been defined.209.169.114.213 18:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Characteristics/symptoms" 

message: The mnemonic is not 'politically correct'. It is not particularly sensitive or tasteful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Splendour (talk • contribs) 
:I have to say that, though I appreciate the sincerity of the spirit in which it was posted, I don't like it myself. It's a jarring note, unencyclopaedic and amateurish. I would also question it's accuracy or value as a mnenonic, it a bit obscure. --Zeraeph 12:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ditto. I think a mnemonic is a specific tool for those who are learning about ASPD, say, for their job or exams, and hence would be studying textbooks or whatever. If people feel the need for the mnemonic to be here then it should be at the bottom of the page and away from the DSM IV criteria.Cas Liber 22:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mnemonic

message: "One route to doing so is by exploring evolutionarily stable strategies; that is, strategies that being successful will tend to be passed on to the next generation, thus becoming more common in the gene pool."
That is the definition of a good strategy, not an evolutionarily stable one.  I've attempted to hint at a more accurate description, and to give the theory better context within the article in the same breath.  However, I'm just a layman to all the disciplines involved, so it may need polishing or perhaps redoing entirely.  At the least, the error is now highlighted.  ◄ИΞШSΜΛЯΞ► 03:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social theories 

message: I have been focusing on the Psychopathy article ever since it was resplit from this one, so I just noticed the very deconstructionist-sounding introduction:
:"Antisocial personality disorder (APD or ASPD) is a psychiatric diagnosis that interprets antisocial and impulsive behaviors as symptoms of a personality disorder. Psychiatry defines only pathological antisocial behavior; it does not address potential benefits of positive antisocial behavior or define the meaning of 'social' in contrast to 'antisocial'."
Do we really need this metaphysical discussion about what the word antisocial really means in the introduction? In my opinion, this prime real estate should be more descriptive than quasi-philosophical because the typical reader unfamiliar with the subject will simply want to know what the term means in the first paragraph. The word interprets also adds a highly deconstructionist tone to the introduction.
By the way, antisocial is typically defined in contrast to prosocial and not just plain social. Antisocial behaviors and attitudes are simply those that reduce interpersonal trust, create conflict, seed ill will between people, result in exploitation, or result in violence. Prosocial behaviors and attitudes engender the opposite: increased compassion and trust, friendship, cooperation, and community. Sociologists frequently use both terms, and some psychologists will use both terms (such as encouraging prosocial behavior in at-risk children).
I'm going to go ahead and change it, by the way.--NeantHumain 06:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good change...that was BAD...like a whole nest of "weasel words". --Zeraeph 04:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just noticed the deconstructionist intro 

message: Seems to me that this one is between mid and high importance...maybe tipping the balance to "mid" simply because of the current "catch all" ambiguity of the diagnosis, ie nobody seems to sure where ASPD begins and ends and come DSM V, ASPD as we currently know it may very well no longer exist. Quality seems to me no more than "mid" but there is no law against interested parties choosing to work it up. --Zeraeph 23:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Psychology]]

message: I just deleted this link: http://www.nlp-plus.com/articles/PersonalityDisorders.asp. It is all a person's amateur observation mixed with highly biased speculation about political and religious beliefs. The author describes borderline personality disorder as being "Very common amongst strippers and Playboy™ category women" as well as "political liberal extremists" and people with narcissistic personality disorder as being "Not sensitive to criticism" in direct contradiction to what many established experts on narcissism have said.
I have often seen a link to sociopathic.net pop up in the references—another amateur website.
If anyone wants to add external links, that's fine, but please make sure they are encyclopedic quality: fact and substantiated thoery rather than opinion, speculation, and ranting.--NeantHumain 00:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality of reference links 

message: ASPD has huge social implications because its sufferers inflict so much harm on those around them.  It is my understanding that this disorder is "baked-in" by the way a person is treated during adolescence, and that it cannot be treated or cured.  This has profound implications for the treatment of adult ASPD sufferers convicted of serious crimes, and thier propensity to re-offend.  I would like to see those with the needed knowledge treat these issues in the article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.185.55.76  (talk • contribs) 
:So would I. --Zeraeph 22:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prognosis, Treatment, Social implications 

message: I don't have a copy of DSM and I am not authoritative but I think the following entry has to be somebody's joke or personal reference rather than a pull from DSM-IV:
8. vandalism of stolen bicycles that have been reclaimed by original owner —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jchesley (talk • contribs) 18:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions to Diagnostic Criteria 

message: Setting this subtopic up to assist the person who posts the link to come here and discuss their reasoning. --Zeraeph 08:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Socipathic.net Link