Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Archive 20

message: Looking at the template for Sailor Moon characters -- recommend allowing variable color use.  Plenty of characters besides Sailor Moon characters also have attributed colors. KyuuA4 18:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been a while since I last worked on the template, but variable color is one of the first parameters of the template. --Farix (Talk) 21:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see.  I completely missed that. KyuuA4 05:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Variable Coloring

message: I've noticed many articles covering (often in great detail) foreign versions of anime.  Editors put in huge lists of foreign names for characters.  For example, in the Space Battleship Yamato article some guy put in a bunch of info about the various Arabic dubs and which are more accurate, etc.  In my opinion, this sort of thing is a waste of space.  If I wanted to know what Sailor Moon's name was in Spanish, I'd check the Spanish wiki.  Obviously the English language dub/names/changes are relevant, but I have no interest in the quality of the Sinhalese Evangelion dub.  What do you guys think?  Sometimes people get irate at me for removing what I find to be trivial.  Evan1975 04:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Our guidelines specifically indicate that the only ones that should be included are the English and Japanese. Any others should go on their specific language version wikis. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree, I would like to know which guidelines say so, as I could not find them. Regards, G.A.S  17:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm...I'm unable to find them at the moment. I suggest we take this discussion to the new WP:MOS-AM talk page. I just created it because the main project page was becoming too crowded (IMHO). It will also provide a good way to keep style discussions organized and in one place. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've started a discussion on this over here. Anyone interested in participating is welcome. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Foreign-language dubs, etc.

message: I have created the following categories: :Category:Chinese mythology in anime and manga (currently here) and :Category:Japanese mythology in anime and manga.  I'd hoped to create a navigation tool for those interested in mythology.  I felt I would be silly not to inform this Wikiproject.  I would appreciate help populating and policing these categories.  Alternatively, I would also appreciate the project's thoughts on the categories (positive, negative, should exist, shouldn't exist, and everything in between).  CaveatLector  Talk Contrib 23:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Terrible naming. The way the category is named, I would expect articles such as Oni in anime and manga and Kappa in anime and manga (articles which we don't need btw). A better phrasing would be :Category:Anime and manga featuring Japanese mythology, but I think both options are too long. I'm actually not even convinced the categories are needed, seeing how it's not even really a genre. I think having :Category:Fantasy anime and manga is good enough.--SeizureDog 00:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree, this seem to be a degree of overcategorizing that is better left on the ash heap. --Farix (Talk) 02:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Points well taken.  This worries me, because these categories are, in part, intended to prevent articles like Oni in anime and manga from popping up.  You are right, SeizureDog, that this naming  is a bit problematic, I'll have to think on that.  As for WP:OC, I can see where you're coming from on this, I didn't really intend to claim this is a genre of anime as much as it is a genre of the tradition and reception of mythology.  I have, in the process of discussing various 'IPC' (WP:IPC) AfD's, been thinking about whether or not this is OC, and I haven't quite mad eup my mind on that yet.  I'll definitely have to think more about it and I welcome more opinions here or on my talk page if any editor wishes. :) CaveatLector  Talk Contrib 02:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New cats 

message: This argument is moot, trite, and trivial.  Even if a work is marketed and geared towards a particular demographic -- it does not imply that the market will respond as such.  As consumers, anyone has the choice of buying anything.  For some works, the distinction does not apply at all.  Furthermore, other mediums (such as movies, books, music, etc) do not have categorization based on demographics.  So, the most neutral position on this topic is complete omission.  It should not be in the template at all.  Regardless, all this would be better served by Genre. KyuuA4 20:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Omit Demographics All-Together

message: As part of revamping List of Yotsuba%26! chapters, we have a question about our current hack use of the nihongo template. If someone who knows more about its proper use could provide some guidance, we'd appreciate it. —Quasirandom 17:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just don't use the template. What you did pretty much defeated two of the proposes of the template, which is to declare the Kanji characters as Japanese and add a CSS class to it (t_nihongo_kanji). --Farix (Talk) 19:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So we need to leave the kanji bare and manually italicize the romanji? Gotcha. Thanks. —Quasirandom 22:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the nihongo template 

message: Template:Japanese episode list
When the template was first made I didn't think people would want to list four possible titles when the dub title was different from the original (as in, Title in English, romaji, kanji/kana, dub title), but there seems to be a few lists like that (such as List of Digimon Adventure episodes). With that in mind, I was thinking there should probably be something like "DubTitle" parameter added, and have it display in the next column. Or is having four titles going overboard? Thoughts? -- Ned Scott 02:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No opinion on that, but as long as you're fiddling with the template, it could use a misc column. I've been using the EpisodeNumber2 slot for that sort of thing, but it would look better after the title. Oh! Edo Rocket or Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei both had an extra bit of information that probably didn't NEED to be there, but a misc. column would allow for it. Doceirias 02:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's Aux1= (and 2,3). -- Ned Scott 02:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. Maybe I should have reread the template before trying to add that stuff in. Got SZS sorted out, so thanks. Doceirias 03:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

text: List of Sailor Moon episodes uses all four titles. And yeah, as Ned Scott says we use the Aux parameters. --Masamage ♫ 02:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

text: If you add another title parameter, I don't think it should be in a new column; vertical space is cheap, but horizontal space is valuable, especially with smaller resolutions (800 and 1024), and multiple long columns will likely look scrunched-up and ugly. The above-linked Sailor Moon list barely squeezes by on a 1024x768 display with average font sizes; forget trying to add in another column (such as FirstEngAirDate) to something like that. —TangentCube, Dialogues 18:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template:Japanese episode list 

message: Dear , you are invited to join the move request for Goku since it's been much slower than expected. I also asked something at WP:WPDB and thought you could help in seeking the answer. Much thanks, Lord Sesshomaru 16:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure your tone is appropriate.  "Much slower than expected" is a very heavy indicator of expected outcome (in this case, approval to move), that you expected this to be done over the course of a few hours.  It would seem that you have clearly come here with the sole intent to canvas for votes.  If you were to do this properly, you would also have notified users involved in the other concerned pages of this move.  --Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk|@ 13:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, that's a bit overreactive. Sesshomaru has actually done a very good job at leaving a neutral message regarding the situation. We should not live in fear of WP:CANVAS accusations when informing others about discussions. -- Ned Scott 00:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two matters 

message: In an anime article where there are no verifiable facts regarding the japanese production, is it acceptable to instead include aspects of the english production process? Hellspawn 09:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article in question is Boogiepop Phantom, a current WP:GA nominee. Feedback appreciated.--Nohansen 14:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very unlikely that there is no info on the production, even in Japanese. In this case, however, english is ok. It shouldn't be overdone to compensate, however; consider it as you would consider stating the technical tools used in production: a minor, but still notable, detail.--SidiLemine 16:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we can verify who worked on the series, but that's it. We have no material like the kind which can be found in Serial Experiments Lain or Madlax, in regards to how the japanese went about producing the series, and what their intentions were. There is no such material on my DVD's, and I have searched for some time on the internet with no success. I had planned on including english production anyway, but forgot about it. Hellspawn 20:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The anime artbook and script books might contain something, but I think they're all out of print. Doceirias 20:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I've heard, they do. I read about some stuff on a fansite. But I don't have the artbook or script books anyway, so that avenue isn't open to us. Hellspawn 20:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I thought fansites were a no-no when it came to references? I looked at Google books, and nothing came up. And I don't have any anime magazines. We don't all buy Newtype USA. And they don't seem to upload previous reviews and the like onto their site, such as with other magazines. But seriously people, when I say I found nothing verifiable on japanese production I mean it. I didn't just spend five minutes browsing google and give up. I looked through english and japanese sites for some time, and found nothing. Hellspawn 17:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that I think about it, I say, "don't worry about it." Almost none of the anime/manga good articles have a production section and there you have them. I think you could do without it. But when the time comes for the article to become featured, you'll need a well referenced "development and design" section.--Nohansen 01:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I would like to do the Production section now rather than have to do it later anyway. Hellspawn 15:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fan sites? You're right, that's not appropriate (unless you want to talk about fan sites, and even then). I never even heard of Newtype before I joined this project; but some people in the project do buy it, and may share it or even better give you a succinct summary. You just need to find something they're doing and help them. I'll try and track them for you. In the meantime, write a nice little email to this person and see what happens!--SidiLemine 16:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, but who are these people? And what's the email for? I do know there's one japanese Newtype that has a Boogiepop article. It can be seen (or parts of it can be seen) here - http://megaten.net/boogiepop/frames.html Hellspawn 09:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These kind, helpful people are listed here. The email is for getting scans of magazines, as stated on the web page. --SidiLemine 10:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  English Production 

message: I tried something a few hours to see how long it would take to be reverted. It didn't take long. So I ask, If anime film articles (Metropolis (2001 film), Perfect Blue) use the Film infobox; why don't anime TV series articles use the TV infobox?
I understand why we use it for franchises like Ranma and BLEACH, but when the article's about only one medium the TV and film infoboxes provide better information (see here). Furthermore, the animanga infobox can be problematic (see SandyGeorgia's comment on the Lupin infobox).
What do you guys think?--Nohansen 13:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is an infobox on an article already, we don't add/change it to our own infobox. If a film article doesn't have an infobox then the preference is to use this Wikiproject's infobox, but it has always been optional whether an editor wanted to use our infobox. Just like editors have the option of using International English or American. We do need to either redesign the infobox to display information more concisely or start making fields like Director, Studio and Network optional so that the larger ones can omit repeated information. But that's a discussion for Template talk:Infobox animanga. --Squilibob 00:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've noticed that "they" seem to have no compunctions against adding/changing OUR infobox to theirs, though... Snarfies 16:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those probably should be reverted and the editors told to bring it up with the respective WikiProjects. But WP:FILM and WP:TV doesn't have a veto over our choice of infoboxes. --Farix (Talk) 16:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infoboxes 

message: Question about the subcategories of the Anime and manga awards category -- the various Winner of the Kodansha/Shogakukan Manga Awards. (I'd wikilink, but I haven't figured out the trick for to a category page.) Are they intended to be applied to articles about works or artists or both? The Kodansha ones are all artists only, the Shogakukan unlabeled and Childrens are artists, but the Shogakukan are all works only. I'm comfuzzled about the intent. (Also, should they be all split by category or all lumped by awarder?) It's something we should probably straighten out, as awards are a good prop for WP:N. —Quasirandom 18:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are award to an artists for a specific work, so it makes no sense to have only the artists. Both should be included. Doceirias 18:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What about the lumping or splitting of categories? There's currently Kodansha categories for Children's, General, Shonen, and Shojo (not no generic winner), and Shogakukan for Children's, Shonen, and generic (but no General or Shojo). I'd say there's a clear case for splitting the latter into the four categories, except the award was, for a long time, only a generic award without categories. —Quasirandom 22:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There aren't enough of them yet.  Just one category for all the awards would suffice. KyuuA4 20:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I'd say there should only be one category for the award. No need to split it up. Doceirias 21:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just to be clear, guys, the categories already exist. You're proposing merges? (Keep in mind that the Shogakukan's been going for 50-odd years, with multiple categories for a couple decades, and Kodansha for 30 years with three categories -- with each award getting double entries in the caegory, for the title and artist. And that's not counting the numerous ties.) —Quasirandom 23:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The articles I was watching were all under just the award name, not divided by demographic. I'd be in favor of a merger. Or two categories - one for the artists and one for the works. That would be a more sensible way to divide things. Doceirias 00:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I edited a couple cats, but other articles were already using the divided categories. Division by work/creator would work. "Winner of" would be the person, I presume. What to name the work category? —Quasirandom 01:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  (BTW, I'll keep sorting as I have been for now, until we get a new system in place--it'll be easier to resort once everything's tagged. —Quasirandom 17:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Award categories 

message: I just discovered a whole slew of undocumented and unused Template:Infobox animanga subtemplates. Four of them are duplicates of documented subtemplates and the rest are simply junk. So I've put them all up for deletion. You can see the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 August 18#Various Template:Infobox animanga subtemplates. --Farix (Talk) 19:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various [[Template:Infobox animanga]] subtemplates up for deletion 

message: User:Folken de Fanel has been going around to many articles and removing info related to fansubs. Since fansubs are a critical part in how much anime develops its popularity in the states, he's removing content with encyclopedic value (i.e. vandalism). I've undone some of the damage he's done, but I could use some help. If someone could reason with him and ask him to stop, that'd be good, but he's already been banned several times for violating 3RR, so he does not appear to be the reasonable type (again, it's why I label him a vandal so quickly). What we need is for someone to monitor his edits and quickly undo them if he tries to apply his anti-fansub bias to an article. Thanks! Buspar 22:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Spot checking his contributions...occasionally he carries it a bit too far (Haruhi's popularity before release was based on fansubs, and that is probably notable) but the vast majority of his changes are ones I entirely agree with. There is no reason to note the availability of fansubs for a series like Legend of Galactic Heroes, or discuss the history of fansubbing on Kodomo no Omocha. Doceirias 22:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Or restore the link to a fansub group on Tsukuyomi -Moon Phase- when the already reference link to ANN is more then sufficient. --Farix (Talk) 22:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say that I disagree with Buspar's opinion on Folken de Fanel's intentions. I checked some of Folken's contributions, and many of the infact were helpful, and would be edits I would make myself; fansubs really have no place on wikipedia unless cited by a published/reliable source (as in the case of the The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) article).--十八 22:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going back through Buspar reversions and restoring User:Folken de Fanel's edits which removed unverifiable information from articles. Remember that WP:V is one of the core policies of Wikipedia and any information or statement that can't pass it has to be removed. --Farix (Talk) 22:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well It's clear that Buspar is going to edit war with User:Folken de Fanel over this. Much of the stuff Buspar is reverting is things like "Only available in North American as fansubs". I really can't begin to explain how this is completely unnecessary. First of all, it's not important to the article. Second, it provides undue weight towards fansubs and also has a singe of POV pushing. Third, it is rare that you can verify it through reliable third-party sources. And lastly, we should only mention when the anime or manga is licensed in English, which is verifiable, instead of mentioning that it is not available in English (see Negative proof). --Farix (Talk) 14:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandal

message: Hi everyone. It seems like someone finally decided to do something about the EVA article, but needs the Susan J. Napier article, "When the Machines Stop: Fantasy, Reality, and Terminal Identity in Neon Genesis Evangelion and Serial Experiments Lain" from Sci Fi journal. Any chance anyone has it and can get it to him? Gwern and I lost it, and GunnarRene is on an extended WikiBreak.--SidiLemine 10:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Napier Article 

message: Where does one go to find the code for portal links?  I'd like to substitute Wikiep-tan's head for the puzzle piece in the Portal:Evangelion link, but I can't find the template anywhere. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 17:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't do that without changing it for all the links since it's a local template that's used by every portal. In any case, it's at Template:Portal, but it's a protected template.--十八 00:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't that what the image and size parameters are for? —TangentCube, Dialogues 01:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portal templates 

message: How does one go about protecting an article? There's these anonymous users who keeps reverting my edit of the Outlaw Star article. I'd understand if my edit was unreasonable, but I explained I'm just following the guidelines of this project, WP:SS and WP:TRIVIA.--Nohansen 17:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:Protection policy.  BrokenSphereMsg me 19:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protection 

message: Would it be valuable to have a :Category:Shōnen-ai? Currently most shōnen-ai articles are in the :Category:Yaoi, which is something different (basically more sex). If you agree, I'll take it up to cat proposals, but let me know if I shouldn't bother. Ninja neko 08:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it'd be a good idea, since it's similar to the all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares (all yaoi is shōnen-ai, but not all shōnen-ai is yaoi). --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New cat 

message: I have created Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Anime- and manga-related articles) with information that was on the main page of the project. This will allow the main page to be less cluttered, and also provide an easy place to find this information that is consistent with what it was: a manual of style for anime- and manga-related articles. Feel free to participate in keeping it up-to-date. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've grown so big that this does seem to make sense. -- Ned Scott 18:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: MOS-AM

message: Commonly, anime-related articles (as many other screen media ones), have problems due to fair use images disputed - particulary painful when we are dealing with a FA article, which sometimes lacks even a single free image. However we are in a very lucky situation, as there is a great source of free images available, many of which members of this project can easily make in the future (if they haven't done so before): Cosplay images. Most anime (and multigenre) conventions feature many characters from anime/manga in cosplay costumes; we can take freely licenced pictures and upload them to Wikimedia Commons (see :Category:Cosplay). I am very suprised to find that this category is so tiny; I am sure there are many free images that can be found on flickr, and that many members of this project had taken some in the past - and will in the future. I am uploading some images I took at Gen Con; if I went there with a goal of getting more cosplay photos (and better batteries... :( ) I could've had dozens of characters. So I strongly suggest - hunt for freely licenced cosplay images online, ask for free licences if status is unclear, ask your convention-going friends for their photos, and when you go to a con - carry a camera and take photos!-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to check www.flickr.com too. Kariteh 20:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I linked it above. By the way, one of my recent edits adding a cosplay image to an article was revert with a summary "no pictures of cosplayers". Is there, by any chance, some guideline from this wikiproject recommending agaisnt use of cosplay images? Consicering that they are the only free type of image available (other then fanart), I'd be quite interested in learning the rationale for it.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cosplaying photos outside of obvious articles where inclusion is proper, such as in the Cosplay article, are not only unneeded, but unwanted in normal anime/manga articles since they rarely ever give an accurate depiction of what the characters look like in the actual anime/manga, unless they are very very good cosplaying costumes, but even then, I doubt anyone wants cosplay photos all over anime/manga artilces just because they can be free use.--十八 20:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am afraid I don't agree with that logic. For starters, we are dealing with medium which is not "real", the only "pure official" media are the copyrighted scans/screenshots anime/manga. Cosplay images are of course an approximation - but a good, free approximation. Just as we accept amateur photos of buildings, people and other objects, and don't demand "official plans / photos by manufactures / approved by the photographed person", so should cosplay approximations be allowed (and welcomed). Remember that screenshots are increasingly deleted and I'd not be suprised if in a near future they would all be removed; other copyright material (posters, covers) will not last much longer (which is unfortunate, but it is the board policy). Hence we should try to get as much free (cosplay) images as possible to fill the inevevitablly growing gaps in our visual coverage. PS. And remember that fair use is illegal in most places outside USA, that we were able to use it - briefly - on en wiki - is a temporary luxury, nothing more.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't like fair-use images that much, contact the copyright owners and ask if they will create images and license them under GFDL or something similar so that we can use them here. --Malevious  Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 21:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to completly misunderstand both my point and how this site works. I like fair use, but they are being deleted - if you don't like that, contact Board of Wikimedia Fundation or take part in relevant discussions. If you dislike cosplay images so much, reach a consensus - for example, on this project pages - banning them from articles; don't remove them because you don't like them (per WP:OWN and related policies).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which pictures are getting deleted exactly? Only pictures with no fair-use rationales are supposed to be deleted. Kariteh 21:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But fur can be disputed, image listed at IfD and then deleted. I have seen this happen over and over again - you might have noticed, for example, removal of all 'one screenshop per episode' fair uses... bottom line is, fair use is losing the battle, and that makes free images (out of which cosplay are the most popular) even more valuable to the articles.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cosplay pics won't help with the episode screenshots problem. I think it's perfectly okay for notable characters who have an article to have, at least, one fair-use picture. Kariteh 21:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I agree with you. But all signs show that fair use will be gone from wiki completly in few years. Anyway, we are getting off topic here: the question is - is there any reason to delete cosplay images from articles that have ample space for more images?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cosplay images falls under the same non-free use and copyright violations are as fanart does. --Farix (Talk) 21:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That applies even more to fair use images. Besides, illustrating characters (in 'character' section) is perfectly acceptable, and if we can use a free image instead of the fair use one, we should do so.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But we can't. A cosplayer picture shows a cosplayer, not the original character design. That would be like showing the picture of a counterfeit Louis Vuitton bag to illustrate an article about Louis Vuitton bags. Kariteh 21:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In regards to featured article reviews, there are several featured media articles containing fair-use television and film screenshots and covers, which contain rationales that have passed featured reviews. Take the 300 article, for example, which contains screenshots describing many of the film's pivotal scenes and good rationales to support their inclusion. Such screenshots are also the most accurate and authentic method of identifying a particular character or a particular scene within the actual series in question, thus meeting the rationale requirements, whereas the subject of these cosplay photographs are mostly just non-notable fans wearing costumes attempting to resemble their favourite characters, which do not help in identifying the actual media in question at all. A character's design in an anime, manga or game is its most defining characteristic, since anime, manga and games are visual media, with such essential features as character facial design only represented by authentic/canon images such as screenshots. In my humble opinion, therefore, cosplay images simply do not have any place in visual media articles, and only authentic or canon media (such as screenshots, covers, etc.) should be used to identify the series, its characters and themes. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu  22:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But by the same logic, one can argue for exclusion of paintings or photographs of statues, not to mention allegorical ones which are far from being "historical" or "realistic". Using a photo of a cosplayer to illustrate the article is no different from an using a photo of an actor or a statue to illustrate a historical person. Note, also, that when Excel Saga was featured on the main page, it did not use a fair use picture - but that of a cosplayer. Of course, any cosplayer image will be less accurate that the original drawing - but the free factor should not be underestimated, and accuracy of costumes (if not faces, for the obvious reasons) can be pretty high, making them an informative visual addition to the article (particulary for the 'characters' section).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That cosplay photo in Excel Saga is not just any old fan, that's the director of the series himself! That makes the person in the photo not only notable enough for inclusion, but the fact that he's cosplaying as his own character in the series only just makes it good enough for inclusion in that article, but just barely. And your locic is flawd. We are talking about drawn media here: anime/manga/games, it's all drawn. Therefore, you cannot accurately depict 2D images with a 3D photograph. This is not like, as you said from an using a photo of an actor or a statue to illustrate a historical person because that is using a 3D medium to illustrate a 3D person. Similarly, a 2D painting can be used to illustrate a 3D person since it's going from 3D to 2D, not 2D to 3D which is the equivalent of the anime to your cosplay photos.--十八 22:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I see you have now removed not only the images I added, but also new sections and copyediting changes (ex. 'characters' in Chobits). I am quite disappointed by such reactions.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What? You do realize that in this edit you in fact effectively hid the last few sections of the article, including Notes and references, External links, and categories; I was merely correcting your mistakes, while at the same time removing the photos.--十八 22:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The photos are not derivative works, but the costumes are. Thus a photo of a derivative work still carries some of the copyright of the work that the costume was derived from. Thus to make a cosplay image totally free, you would have to get the photographer to license the photograph, the creator of the cosplay costume to license their creative contribution in making the costume, and get the original anime people to license their creative contribution in drawing the original anime. Carcharoth 23:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ironically, the original anime people might take a dimmer view of their articles being illustrated with cosplay pictures, than of their articles being illustrated with official pictures. Carcharoth 00:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure the copyright would extend like that in regards to the costume. Just like how designs of clothes can be copyrighted, but pictures of people wearing those clothes can be free. You could still probably make a trademark claim, though. -- Ned Scott 02:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But it's not just the costume, it's the entire design of the character being demonstrated (which I suppose is your point on trademarks, but I'm pretty sure that we're still looking at a copyright issue). That said, I think a more relevant comparison is the issue with photographs of statues - see Wikipedia:Copyright FAQ#Derivative works. Unfortunately while it states that it is possible to copyright a photo of a public domain statue, it doesn't say whether a photo of a copyrighted statue can be re-copyrighted by the photographer, and the second section on the talk page addresses the question slightly with the answer of "maybe". Confusing Manifestation 04:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A solution to non-free image issue