Talk:Experimental rock

message: The timeline includes almost exclusively bands in the punk/post-punk/noise/industrial tradition, and almost nothing from the avant-prog/art-rock tradition.  There's no Henry Cow, no Magma, no Gentle Giant, no Eno, no Amon Düül II, no Thinking Plague, no Ruins, no Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, no Charming Hostess.  It's also missing extremely important and influential bands like Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, the Residents and Mr. Bungle.  I'm not sure that it's actually possible to create a timeline like this that represents all types of experimental rock equally, but this one doesn't even come close.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Invisible map (talk • 
contribs) 13:19, August 25, 2007 (UTC) </small>
: I totally agree with you. Also, since when is Nirvana "Experimental Rock". The chart is misleading. I'm getting rid of it. Nlm1515 21:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The time line is inaccurate (since it lists bands few would consider experimental) and biased (since it only examines punk based styles of experimental rock music). Now normally if this were brought to attention, users could gradually add bands to the chart and remove non-essential ones. But then I thought about it, and I think the right think to do would be delete the timeline, because its completely redundant. The entire article is already organized chronologically, and lists bands by decades. We don't need to explain everything twice. So there it goes - I deleted it. Goodbye, crummy timeline. Nlm1515 22:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline bias?

message: There is an absolute delineation between the terms experimental and avant-garde. They are not used interchangeably in the context of other abstractions that they are used to categorize. Someone should seriously reconsider recreating this article. It is not factual.
Experimental is used primarily to designate something as being "better" or breaking away from traditional form.
Avant-garde is used primarily to designate that something is new or innovational and tends to account the importance of traditional form.
Again, revise. As of right now, this is an uncertain article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jotsko (talk • contribs) 07:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As used in the musicological term experimental music, "experimental" means literally unpredictable music, even for the composer themselves, not just unorthodox music that breaks genre rules (which from a wider perspective isn't all that avant-garde to begin with, if these rules are sufficiently narrow). "Experimental" in this sense has very little relevance in popular music, where works are almost always composed or at least improvised intentionally by artists, rather than generated by a computer for example (see computer music, aleatoric music and indeterminacy (music)), and rarely challenge the definition of music as such. Worse, much if not most progressive rock (and chance is that most artists discussed here are in the same vein), while it often uses relatively avant-gardistic elements, from the perspective of mainstream rock music at least, isn't necessarily all that ground-breaking or even just unorthodox, especially compared to other progressive rock. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:26, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Experimental =/= Avant-garde 

message: Given the fact that this article has one source, and that is not a very good one, can anyone present some evidence that this is a genre? All these acts might be experimental, but I do not see any evidence that they are in any meaningful way a genre. If not I will remove the genre infobox in a few days.--SabreBD (talk) 19:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the genre infobox since no evidence to support this was forthcoming. I also tagged the article for OR. If reliable sources are not forthcoming this may be going to AfD.--SabreBD (talk) 08:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Genre?

message: Experimental rock is something of a catch-all label; being that there is no exact definition of what experimental rock is, I think it's a little inappropriate to define it in the lead as "diametrically opposed" to verse-chorus-verse. You could make a sizeable list of artists mentioned in this article itself who incorporate verse-chorus-verse into their songwriting. Regardless, AllMusic is an online database with questionable writing; I don't see why it should be considered an expert journalistic resource.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.85.131 (talk) 01:14, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  AllMusic quote 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Experimental rock's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "RIAA":
From Hard rock: 
From Post-hardcore: "RIAA Gold and Platinum Searchable Database" Recording Industry Association of America. Retrieved on February 20, 2009.
From The Rolling Stones: RIAA Gold & Platinum database. RIAA. Retrieved 4 December 2011
From Industrial music: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Experimental rock]] 

message: I am not willing to remake this article, but it is annoying that almost none of its contents are supported by anything, and that it has been that way for almost a decade. I trust nobody will miss it if I initiate a reboot? Here are the only sources I could find within 2 minutes.
* Allmusic
* Avant Rock: Experimental Music from the Beatles to Bjork By Bill Martin
* Music of Yes: Structure and Vision in Progressive Rock By Bill Martin Jr.
--Ilovetopaint (talk) 10:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mean Deviation is mainly about progressive metal, but does discuss experimental rock. This and this book include discussions of experimental rock. This and this have a list of articles pertaining to experimental rock.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:17, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite article from scratch 

message: I put a notice about the article here. Chilton (talk) 12:12, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice 

message: Using this as a spot to copy and paste material from the body that can be summarized in the lead:
* There was always experimentation in rock music, but it wasn't until the late 1960s that new openings were created from the aesthetic intersecting with the social.
* In 1966, the boundaries between pop music and the avant-garde began to blur, and rock albums began to be conceived and executed as distinct, extended statements.
* In the late 1960s, groups ... began incorporating elements such as avant-garde music, sound collage, and poetry in their work
* [experimental rock contains] countertextural aspects ... calling attention to the very recordedness of the album
* [After 1967] experimental rock [became] commercially viable music ... pop music and experimental rock were temporarily synonymous
* By 1970, most of the musicians which had been at the forefront of experimental rock had incapacitated themselves.
* [After the 1970s] ideas from the art world, including those of experimental music and the avant-garde, should be deployed in the context of experimental rock—were a key innovation throughout the decade
*  Germany's "krautrock" scenesaw bands develop a form of experimental rock that drew on rock sources ... as well as wider avant-garde influence
* During [the late 1970s], funk, jazz-rock, and fusion rhythms became integrated into experimental rock music
* Some groups who were categorized as "post-punk" considered themselves part of an experimental rock trajectory
* The early 1980s would see avant-rock develop significantly following the punk and new wave, DIY experimentation, electronic music, and musical cross-breeding of the previous decade
* the first wave of 1980s experimental rock groups ... had few direct precedents for their sound.
* In the late 1980s, avant-rock pursued a "frazzled, psychedelia-tinged, 'blissed out'" aesthetic that differed from the self-consciousness and vigilance of earlier post-punk
* During the 1990s, a loose movement known as post-rock became the dominant form of experimental rock
* [there is] uncertainty with the term "experimental rock", and that "it seems like every rock band today has some kind of post-, kraut-, psych-, or noise- prefixed to their genre."
--Ilovetopaint (talk) 00:28, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanding lead 

message: There is currently a Beatles overrepresentation. There's also a few other bands, that while great, are not Experimental Rock. The introduction with Beach Boys and Beatles to talk about studio techniques and how influenced later on is fine but that's where it should end. They were monumental bands for Art Rock and released a couple of psychedelic pop albums but they were not experimental. Sgt. Pepper's, Magical Mystery Tour and The Who Sell Out do not belong next to The Fugs, The Velvet Underground and The Mothers of Invention in an Experimental Rock article.
I would also replace their image in the 60's section (maybe with Velvet Underground). Look, I love The Beatles but there's some Beatlemaniacs shoving them everywhere...   — Preceding unsigned comment added by  SMTWTFS (talk • contribs) 06:25, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Psychedelic does not automatically mean Experimental.