Talk:Abu al-Walid

message: I am aware of some factual inaccuracies in the article. I am in the process of gathering more info and hopefully I will soon weed them all out. ForrestSjap 19:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just corrected some mistakes and added some information. I will now begin writing a chapter about accusations of terrorist acts. I hope it will be finished soon so I can add it. ForrestSjap 20:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More information 

message: Dear 82.27.39.34, please discuss your elaborate plans on the talk page before removing truckloads of well referenced sections of an article. I have written this article myself, and you can rest assured that I am not an agent of the Russian propaganda machine. I am in fact a great forespeaker of Chechen independence and I have tried my best to keep this article as objective as possible. Your edits were simply outrageous and I have reverted them all. Feel free to discuss this with me here. ForrestSjap 08:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright then if you insist.
I am not linking Salafism to terrorism, never have, never will.
I do not claim the activities of the MAK were terrorism, never have, never will.
I do however claim that having been trained by the MAK adds credibility to rumors of involvement in terrorism. This because many suspected and convicted terrorists were Arab Volunteers of the Soviet-Afghan War trained by the MAK, and the MAK was in fact the predecessor of Al-Qaeda. I also feel I should point out that by implying the claims of involvement in terrorism against Al-Walid are more credible, I am not implying they are actually  more likely to be true. By using the word credibility I am referring to the perception of these claims by the public. Let's face it, most people are more likely to beleive a person is involved in terrorism when he is a Salafi Muslim and a veteran of the Soviet-Afghan war, than when he is a moderate Catholic trained in car maintenance.
As for the statements about suicide operations. Suicide operations are not means of conventional warfare and in the case of the conflict in Iraq they are not used for military gain, but for manipulating public opinion. I consider these actions to be terrorism and the section belongs in this chapter.
Responding to questions about suicide bombings (on civilian targets) by Chechen women, al-Walid tried to explain the motives of these women and the fact that they had been brutalized by the Russian occupation forces. Yes, this is called defending, in any case, Al-Walid is making a statement about acts of terrorism so this section should not be removed.
The title 'involvement in terrorism' is suitable because it is a question rather than a statement, the chapter is about al-Walid's involvement in terrorism and anyone interested in it should read it to get to know what his involvement actually was. It is neutral and does not contain any judgment, whereas 'non-involvement in terrorism' or 'Russian accusations of terrorism' are obviously biased. That will be all for now. ForrestSjap 09:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Note that I am not involved in this content dispute, I was simply correcting an act of vandalism.  Removing cited content from Wiki is vandalism.  Please learn how to properly edit Wikipedia before trying to make major changes. --Strothra 07:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of referenced content 

message: While I agree that the wholesale removal of the sourced material does not serve the article, there do seem to be issues in the article as it stands right now concerning neutrality. The title of the disputed section "involvement in terrorism" lends itself to a point of view. In the absence of proof, it would be more properly titled "allegations of terrorist involvement". There are other statements within that section that seem to lend themselves to a point of view: "His devout Salafism and the fact that during the Soviet-Afghan war he has trained at the Maktab al-Khidamat adds credibility to these claims." It might be proper to state "According to CNN, his devout...." According to my reading of policy, however, this is the kind of claim that must be attributed in order to prevent our drawing conclusions from sources. 
As far as this is concerned: "Apparently, the threats have never been carried out. There are no instances known of casualties caused by mines laid by Chechen fighters on Russian territory since al-Walid released this statement." Do we have a source for this? Again, it reads a bit like WP:OR.
I agree with some of the changes made by User:82.27.39.34 here. Although I'm not sure that the change of "insurgent" to "fighter" is necessary, since insurgent has a specific and context-appropriate meaning, I also don't see any harm in the change. "fighter" is also a neutral word. 
Reporting on statements released by Abu al-Walid seems entirely appropriate, as long as the language used in doing so is neutral. Are there specific concerns about the validity of the sources?
It seems to me that you're both acting in good faith. :) Though I understand that the topic may be a little sensitive (or even extremely sensitive), I believe that the article will benefit from your discussion if you can manage to maintain civility and work towards consensus. --Moonriddengirl 13:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been some time since I last reacted here but I think it is a good thing we now have a third opinion. I want to underscore once again that my problem was not the fact that User:82.27.39.34 wanted to change several things in order to make the article more neutral, my problem was the fact that he removed large amounts of content, claiming it was irrelevant and even going so far as calling it propaganda. I will make several edits in order to make the article more neutral where possible. First of all, I understand how the line "His devout Salafism and the fact that during the Soviet-Afghan war he has trained at the Maktab al-Khidamat adds credibility to these claims." might be misunderstood to mean something I do not wish to imply, therefore I will remove it. I will also change the title of the section as Moonriddengirl suggested, I will however not opt for 'Russian accusations of terrorism' or 'Non-involvement in terrorism' but for something more neutral. I will also make some edits to the section about suicide operations in Iraq. I will however change the word 'fighter' back to 'insurgent', as the word insurgent is in my opinion completely neutral and, as Moonriddengirl argued, context-appropriate. The line about al-Walid being reclusive will also be kept, but I will place it in a context to prevent confusion as to the reason why it's mentioned. I will not make any changes to the section where al-Walid's reaction to Chechen female suicide bombings can be found, I think this section is relevant and neutral. The claim that no mines have been laid by insurgents is not sourced, but in this case it could be argued that the lack of sources is in itself a source, since the Russian media would have reported on such an event extensively if it had ever taken place. I will change it though. I hope we can all agree now. ForrestSjap 13:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The changes have been made, I hope we can all live with it now. If so, let me know and I will remove the NPOV-tag. ForrestSjap 14:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. Just wanted to note that I'm still monitoring the discussion in case further third opinion input is necessary. :) Hopefully your changes will be satisfactory for User:82.27.39.34 as well. --Moonriddengirl 15:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad to hear this. I don't know what happened to User:82.27.39.34, it appears he hasn't been editing a lot lately. What do you think of the changes so far? ForrestSjap 17:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks to me like a good step towards achieving balance. My experience with third opinion tells me there may be another round or so of conversation, assuming that User:82.27.39.34 is interested in continuing to collaborate on the article. It can be hard to anticipate reactions to specific word choices and such. :) --Moonriddengirl 17:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I have no objection. If User:82.27.39.34 wishes to contest the changes, the tag can certainly be restored while the conversation resumes. --Moonriddengirl 17:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The tag has been removed.ForrestSjap 19:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All right. I'll watch the page for a few more days in case conversation resumes. If I miss it or it returns thereafter and you feel I can be of some help, please drop me a note at my talk page. :) --Moonriddengirl 20:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will, thanks for helping out!ForrestSjap 20:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third Opinion 

message: It is futile to try to maintain a Wiki article about Muslim supremacist aggression, as long as any ignorant Muslim jingo is able to obliterate what you write, and substitute his own grandiose propaganda.
"...with KavkazCenter claiming he was killed by an air strike while preparing for prayer..."
Gimme a break.
Abu al-Walid al-Ghamdi was killed by the Russians in Daghestan, where his job was to receive money via corrupt Muslim charities. I doubt al-Ghamdi ever even set foot in Chechnya.
209.121.88.198 (talk) 00:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Familiar propaganda 

message: Complaint by ForrestSjap:
:I have just reviewed your edits on the Abu al-Walid article which was largely written by me, and I am rather puzzled by them. I don't really see your point. I didn't revert the edits because I if you do have a point I would very much like to know it. Also if you really want to improve articles, don't be sloppy and make sure your edits are gramatically correct. Let me know what you have to say on this.ForrestSjap (talk) 20:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was trying to make the lead more consise and "encyclopedic". If you see any gramatical mistakes I will correct them. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see your point on some of the concision issues, although I still don't follow most of them, but if you want to improve an article by making it more concise, be thorough and read back what you've done. I will not point out the mistakes that now occur in the text, because you would easily find them yourself if you so much as glanced at the text after you edited it. Permit me to make some edits, see if you agree, and if you don't we can discuss it again here. I also found your last edit somewhat confusing. I don't know if there's any official Wikipedia policy dictating the specific order in which you placed the text, but I think it is rather illogical. Please explain.ForrestSjap (talk) 20:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Now let's be civil. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Abu al-Walid was accused by Russians of terrorist attacks on civilians, and "there are allegations that al-Walid is variously an agent of Saudi intelligence, the Muslim Brotherhood, or Bin Laden's al-Qaeda." While al-Walid has neither confirmed nor denied these charges, he has condemned percieved Russian abused in Chechnya. Al Jazeera; Russia warned of new attacks
 --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have already noticed your edits, and I disagree with their necessity. The charges of terrorism commonly mentioned in connection with al-walid are not so commonly mentioned at all. They are mentioned almost solely in one context. Russian press releases. I have created this article a long time ago and have kept an eye on it ever since because I know it is a sensitive subject. On one hand it has to be protected against Jihad-fans who consider al-Walid an untouchable hero and won't rest untill every mention of terrorism is removed, and on the other hand it has to be protected against deeply Islamophobic Americans and Russians who believe it is their duty to expose every AK-weilding Muslim as a bloodthirsty terrorist. You can rest assured, I do not have a hidden agenda, I just wish to keep the article informative and neutral. If you really have a point, let me know and I will look into it. But most of your recent edits are not necessary and only serve to highlight certain aspects which you beleive are to be emphasized. Please let me know what your main concern is so we can try to work this out.ForrestSjap (talk) 21:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: While I'm sure I speak for all wiki editors in thanking you for creating the article and keeping tabs on it, I must remind you Wikipedia is a collective endeavor. No article is owned by its creator. I think you find my short paragraph fair, balanced, with no undue wieght or POV. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I've found some grammar errors in my edits and have attempted to correct them. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

text: There's no need to put emphasis on these allegations. First of all Russia accuses ALL CHECHEN REBELS of links with Al-Qaeda, but they never ever provide proof. Second of all there's already a giant paragraph about it. It's fine the way it is. - PietervHuis (talk) 00:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need to delete it from the lead. There is great interest among the internatinoal public in who is or is not associated with al-Qaeda and Abu al-Walid's reply is included. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 

message: I added a new paragraph to the lead as charges of terrorism are commonly mentioned in connection with  Abu al-Walid.
:Abu al-Walid was accused by Russians of terrorist attacks on civilians, and "there are allegations that al-Walid is variously an agent of Saudi intelligence, the Muslim Brotherhood, or Bin Laden's al-Qaeda." While al-Walid has neither confirmed nor denied these charges, he has condemned percieved Russian abused in Chechnya. Al Jazeera; Russia warned of new attacks
 --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have already noticed your edits, and I disagree with their necessity. The charges of terrorism commonly mentioned in connection with al-walid are not so commonly mentioned at all. They are mentioned almost solely in one context. Russian press releases. I have created this article a long time ago and have kept an eye on it ever since because I know it is a sensitive subject. On one hand it has to be protected against Jihad-fans who consider al-Walid an untouchable hero and won't rest untill every mention of terrorism is removed, and on the other hand it has to be protected against deeply Islamophobic Americans and Russians who believe it is their duty to expose every AK-weilding Muslim as a bloodthirsty terrorist. You can rest assured, I do not have a hidden agenda, I just wish to keep the article informative and neutral. If you really have a point, let me know and I will look into it. But most of your recent edits are not necessary and only serve to highlight certain aspects which you beleive are to be emphasized. Please let me know what your main concern is so we can try to work this out.ForrestSjap (talk) 21:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: While I'm sure I speak for all wiki editors in thanking you for creating the article and keeping tabs on it, I must remind you Wikipedia is a collective endeavor. No article is owned by its creator. I think you find my short paragraph fair, balanced, with no undue wieght or POV. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found some grammar errors in my edits and have attempted to correct them. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

text: There's no need to put emphasis on these allegations. First of all Russia accuses ALL CHECHEN REBELS of links with Al-Qaeda, but they never ever provide proof. Second of all there's already a giant paragraph about it. It's fine the way it is. - PietervHuis (talk) 00:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need to delete it from the lead. There is great interest among the internatinoal public in who is or is not associated with al-Qaeda and Abu al-Walid's reply is included. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph added to lead 

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thread_title:  Image copyright problem with Image:Ulus-Kert.jpg 

message: http://www.kommersant.com/p468033/r_1/Abu_Al-Walid_Was_a_Shakhid_Twice/ --Asperchu (talk) 01:30, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death in Ingushetia? 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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