Talk:Alice Miller (psychologist)/Archive 1

message: Does "Christiane F." get mentioned at all in the English language edition of "For Your Own Good"?  Maikel 19:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t have the English version; but she is mentioned in the Spanish translation.  —Cesar Tort 22:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks;  she is indeed also mentioned in the English edition.  Maikel 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Christiane F.]]? 

message: Miller has written about Virginia Woolf in her book The body never lies and in her book Thou Shalt Not Be Aware revised edition 1998 . In the 1981 German edition Du sollst nicht merken I have found something about Virginia Woolf, too (page 159-161) she has mentioned her lifestory. Austerlitz 88.72.3.24 11:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Austerlitz. Can we talk about Virginia et al in the external forum that appears far below? Thank you. —Cesar Tort 16:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Miller about Virginia Woolf

message: ==== 1) Quoting Alice Miller from Interview by Diane Connors 1997 ====
*OMNI "What advice would you give today to a therapist in training?"
*Miller "First try to discover your own childhood, then take the experience seriously. Listen to the patient and not to any theory; with your theory you are not free to listen. Forget it. Do not analyze the patient like an object. Try to feel, and help the patient to feel instead of talking to the patient about the feelings of others."
:—The preceding unsigned comment was added by  Austerlitz (talk • contribs).
:: Hi Austerlitz.  According to WP:TPG and WP:TALK wikipedia’s talk pages are no “soapbox”, which means that in Wikiland we are supposed to talk about how to improve the article, not about the subject.  If you want to talk about the subject may I suggest we go here .  That forum specializes in Miller, and you can discuss Jeffrey Masson issues as well.  I look forward to see you there :) Cesar Tort 00:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello Cesar, I've had a look at that forum. I have not seen your name there. Are you really there? talking about Miller and Jeffrey Masson? Austerlitz 88.72.1.211 21:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry.  I should’ve been more specific.  Just go to this place: . —Cesar Tort 23:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: According to WP:TPG and WP:TALK wikipedia’s talk pages are no “soapbox”, which means that in Wikiland we are supposed to talk about how to improve the article, not about the subject.  If you want to talk about the subject may I suggest we go here .  That forum specializes in Miller, and you can discuss Jeffrey Masson issues as well.  I look forward to see you there :) Cesar Tort 00:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Another quotation taken from your external link: But I cannot accept it when a partially healed patient like Alice Miller creates a theory based on her own rationalizations, and calls it the full truth. This is not respectful, that is the jugdement of a therapist disqualifying another human being as being a patient thinking himself to be healed completely.(?) The rest of the essay is worthwile reading, I think. Austerlitz 88.72.4.33 18:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can discuss this in Daniel Mackler’s forum . Perhaps Daniel himself may want to join us in the discussion? —Cesar Tort 23:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Cesar, I don't like the Registration Agreement Terms of that forum. I would like to join the discussion about Daniel Mackler's article about Alice Miller, though. Austerlitz 88.72.1.119 11:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've joined it in spite of my disliking parts of the Registration Agreement terms; we'll see what is going to happen with the power of webmaster,administrator and moderators. How they (mis)use it or not. Austerlitz 88.72.0.254 12:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I’m sure you know by now that Daniel would never misuse his “powers”.  I’m glad to talk to you there (and everyone interested in Miller issues) . —Cesar Tort 23:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  Hello Cesar, I've had a look at that forum. I have not seen your name there. Are you really there? talking about Miller and Jeffrey Masson? Austerlitz 88.72.1.211 21:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry.  I should’ve been more specific.  Just go to this place: . —Cesar Tort 23:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I believe Miller was talking not only of her own swaddling but about all the abuse her mother inflicted her. —Cesar Tort 01:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I continue this discussion in this forum . —Cesar Tort 04:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Austerlitz’s three subheadings

message: *OMNI "What advice would you give today to a therapist in training?"
*Miller "First try to discover your own childhood, then take the experience seriously. Listen to the patient and not to any theory; with your theory you are not free to listen. Forget it. Do not analyze the patient like an object. Try to feel, and help the patient to feel instead of talking to the patient about the feelings of others."
:—The preceding unsigned comment was added by  Austerlitz (talk • contribs).
:: Hi Austerlitz.  According to WP:TPG and WP:TALK wikipedia’s talk pages are no “soapbox”, which means that in Wikiland we are supposed to talk about how to improve the article, not about the subject.  If you want to talk about the subject may I suggest we go here .  That forum specializes in Miller, and you can discuss Jeffrey Masson issues as well.  I look forward to see you there :) Cesar Tort 00:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello Cesar, I've had a look at that forum. I have not seen your name there. Are you really there? talking about Miller and Jeffrey Masson? Austerlitz 88.72.1.211 21:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry.  I should’ve been more specific.  Just go to this place: . —Cesar Tort 23:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  <small>1) <small>Quoting Alice Miller from Interview by Diane Connors 1997</small> </small>

message: http://www.alice-miller.com/readersmail_en.php?lang=en&nid=803&grp=0806 I feel that Alice Miller has not understood what the letter really wanted to say to her. Do you agree? Austerlitz 88.72.1.236 16:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to WP:TPG and WP:TALK wikipedia’s talk pages are no “soapbox”, which means that in Wikiland we are supposed to talk about how to improve the article, not about the subject.  If you want to talk about the subject may I suggest we go here .  That forum specializes in Miller, and you can discuss Jeffrey Masson issues as well.  I look forward to see you there :) Cesar Tort 00:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Another quotation taken from your external link: But I cannot accept it when a partially healed patient like Alice Miller creates a theory based on her own rationalizations, and calls it the full truth. This is not respectful, that is the jugdement of a therapist disqualifying another human being as being a patient thinking himself to be healed completely.(?) The rest of the essay is worthwile reading, I think. Austerlitz 88.72.4.33 18:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can discuss this in Daniel Mackler’s forum . Perhaps Daniel himself may want to join us in the discussion? —Cesar Tort 23:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Cesar, I don't like the Registration Agreement Terms of that forum. I would like to join the discussion about Daniel Mackler's article about Alice Miller, though. Austerlitz 88.72.1.119 11:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've joined it in spite of my disliking parts of the Registration Agreement terms; we'll see what is going to happen with the power of webmaster,administrator and moderators. How they (mis)use it or not. Austerlitz 88.72.0.254 12:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I’m sure you know by now that Daniel would never misuse his “powers”.  I’m glad to talk to you there (and everyone interested in Miller issues) . —Cesar Tort 23:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  Hello Cesar, I've had a look at that forum. I have not seen your name there. Are you really there? talking about Miller and Jeffrey Masson? Austerlitz 88.72.1.211 21:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry.  I should’ve been more specific.  Just go to this place: . —Cesar Tort 23:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I believe Miller was talking not only of her own swaddling but about all the abuse her mother inflicted her. —Cesar Tort 01:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I continue this discussion in this forum . —Cesar Tort 04:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  <small>2) <small>Communication from Alice Miller's Website </small> </small>

message: * The Truth about depression: Choices for healing Austerlitz 88.72.20.189 20:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book review 

message: http://www.alice-miller.com/readersmail_en.php?lang=en&nid=999&grp=1206
:Austerlitz 88.72.25.173 16:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A letter and an answer from Alice Miller's Website 

message: According to my judgement Miller erronously has not taken into consideration that there has been a racist ideology in order to justify all those massmurder for the "good" of socalled "aryan race". If Hitler had not got strong support from powerful people he could not have done nothing - or maybe he would have become a "private" massmurderer because of his infancy -, not being able to murder with the help of so many institutions so many people.
*"Life Unworthy of Life" and other Medical Killing Programmes
*killing of psychiatric patients in Nazi Germany between 1939-1945.
There has also been strong propaganda and a totalitarian educational system in order to make people convince that the killing of innocent people was a task which had to be done for the good of majority of Germans (and Europeans). There is a book from Erika Mann, published in 1938, entitled "School for Barbarians", which is about the Nazi educational system of State.
:Austerlitz 88.72.16.84 15:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  For the good of "''Aryan race''" 

message: "Drawing upon the work of Psychohistory, Alice Miller has analysed such subjects as Adolf Hitler, Jürgen Bartsch, and many artists such as Pablo Picasso, Virginia Woolf, and Franz Kafka to find links between their childhood traumas and the outcome of their lives."—which book is this referring to? Maikel 20:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For Adolf Hitler it is "For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence" (1983). Not sure about the others. Lumos3 00:15, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jürgen Bartsch is also discussed in “For Your Own Good”; Pablo Picasso in “The Untouched Key” (though Miller doesn’t characterize Picasso as an abused child), Virginia Woolf in “The Body Never Lies” and Franz Kafka in “Thou Shalt Not Be Aware”.  Cesar Tort 19:34, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  Maikel 20:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Psychohistory

message: I eliminated the second referent at the very end of the article since the “Natural Child Project” website, which I love by the way, is already mentioned in the “External Links” section.  For writing style purposes, in a short article it is more elegant to have only one referent about the Stettbacher issue than two. Cesar Tort 19:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have essentially moved both links to the "external links" section, because that's what it's for;  also, I think it's useful to have a separate links for the "Note ..." text because it saves people having to look it up separately via Google (although, personally, I don't find it that informative).  Maikel 20:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted referent 

message: After summarizing the content of Alice Miller’s books in my expansion of the original article, the bibliographical section became redundant so I eliminated it. —Cesar Tort 03:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for adding summarises of some of her books but this doeas not remove the need for a Bibliography which provides a full list with details of publisher, ISBN etc . Lumos3 08:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK: I agree with your idea of keeping the list of all of Miller’s published books.  However, the ISBN numbers look a bit awkward to me.  If you click on those numbers and try to find a Miller’s bestseller in non Western countries there appears the message “No matches found”.  Is it important to keep the ISBN numbers?  It is very easy for any person in the world to purchase any of Miller’s books through Amazon. —Cesar Tort 18:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please take a look at any Further reading or Bibliography section in Wikipedia and you will see that it normal practise to quote ISBN.  The link then gives the reader the choice of finding the book in a large number of libraries as well as a choice of on line booksellers. Wikipedia needs to practise good citations in order to support its credibility. Lumos3 10:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.  I did´t know it.  I've been less than a month in Wikipedia.  Thanks for helping me to improve the article, Lumos3. —Cesar Tort 13:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article expansion  

message: I was under the impression that top level links to other people with the same name, like that added here, should only be added if there is an article for that other person. Would the editor who added the statement care to create a stub for Alice Miller (pilot) (assuming she was a pilot) and we could to link that? Otherwise i don't quite see the point. Rockpocket 17:47, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be quite happy to leave the disambiguation as it is without creating a new lemma, as I don't think that the Alice Miller "Doppelgänger" rates an article;  see also here.  Maikel 20:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I guess my point is that if she isn't notable enough to have her own article, neither is she notable enough to require a notice at the top of another person of the same name's article. Otherwise we could list plenty of people called Alice Miller there! Rockpocket 00:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have linked the entry to the Israeli Air Force article which features more information about that case.  Maikel 17:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I still think the principle hold that if we cannot justify an article for herself, then there is no need to make a statement about here here, afterall, she affords just one sentence in the Israeli Air Force article. If we followed this principle for every minor character mentioned in every other article, it would be ludicrous, so what makes Miller so special. However, perhaps others could offer an opinion before we make a decision? Rockpocket 19:45, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: There are many persons with the name of Alice Miller in the world.  I doubt the Israeli woman is a sufficiently notable person according to Wikipedia policies.  If in the future another editor writes an article about her, disambiguation is justified. —Cesar Tort 20:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Alice Miller 

message: Some of the many questions raised above by several editors can be answered by reading her book For Your Own Good, now available online .  —Cesar Tort 16:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job, thanks for sharing.  Maikel 17:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miller’s comment on this article 

message: The link to  "An Analysis of the Limits of Alice Miller – biographical criticism by Daniel Mackler" was reverted.  The editor who reverted it indicated in edit summary “Rv link spam”.
While it’s true that Mackler’s piece hasn’t been published, I doubt it is spam.  Actually, I have read it and can state it’s the result of serious scholarship.  
One of the problems with Alice Miller’s critics is that, while she has been much criticized in psychoanalytic circles, it’s extremely rare to find such criticism published in scholarly journals or serious books.  The only book by a respected writer I know who has criticized Miller is Ron Rosenbaum’s Explaining Hitler.  And even there the criticism is meager: Rosenbaum used only a single page to dismiss Miller’s analysis of Hitler.
Since the Wikipedia article contains virtually no criticism of Miller, for NPOV purposes I believe Mackler’s paper deserves a link in this article.  If no objection, I will restore the link tonight. —Cesar Tort 00:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair point, i support Cesar's position. How is your book coming along, CT? You seem to be very disciplined in your weekends only editing policy of WP. Rockpocket 03:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: —Cesar Tort 15:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No spam 

message: Whoever has put the links to those paintings (two of them), thank you. Austerlitz 88.72.2.186 21:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the second link of Miller’s paintings (which I had posted) since it didn’t reflect the text’s content; and a redundant mention to Hitler and Bartsch was removed too.  Also, I relocated the Korczak award to a better place. —Cesar Tort 01:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paintings of Alice Miller 

message: Cesar, I've changed the text a little bit, that is I've added some words. Is this site still on your watchlist? Perhaps I should have looked for discussion with you before adding?
But is it not to late. In case you do not agree with the phrase, please let me know.
Austerlitz 88.72.20.177 11:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK with me. Cesar Tort 06:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  For your own Good 

message: Hi  Karuna8: I already left a message in your talk page indicating that when you want to remove a post of yours that has been answered it's better to just archive it. But don't worry, it's not big deal and I have already archived it. —Cesar Tort 02:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  archived 

message: Concerning: "she originally fell for Stettbacher but in the end distanced herself from him and his regressive therapies."  Unless Alice Miller specified somewhere that she had romantic feelings for Stettbacher (in which case there  needs to be a source) I believe the word 'fell' should be changed to reflect academic appreciation/ acceptance of his ideas and nothing else.  I am not going to alter anything since I don't have a lot of knowledge on this topic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.16.240.62 (talk) 11:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I changed it. —Cesar Tort 15:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question: Word Choice Implication. 

message: I have added references. Unfortunately, since in the place that I live for the moment I only have some Miller books in English, I could only add other references by citing the translations of her books in Spanish: it was the only way to include specific pages of quotations, etc. I hope another editor will change that by placing instead the specific pages of the English translations. —Cesar Tort 17:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References added 

message: I have removed some of 81.97.208.103's phrases unsuitable for an encyclopedia (perhaps proper for an essay).
I have also removed 81.97.208.103's phrases that I've not seen in Miller's thought (anti-American pronunciations regarding the war in Afghanistan for instance).
Cesar Tort 21:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  81.97.208.103's copyedits 

message: Why do people keep removing the link to "For your own good"? There's nothing wrong with it. Addicted2Sanity (talk) 09:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe because it should not be within the main text per WP style policies, but at the end of the article, as it is today located. —Cesar Tort 09:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, didn't know WP had a policy like that. I wanted to have it there so people would find it. Addicted2Sanity (talk) 09:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  For your own good

message: In looking at the different parts for the page, I've been able to determine where the problem originates. Apparently the Template knows to look for a Comment page. If it finds one, it will transclude it into the talk page for the article. Easiest solution may be to rename the comment page.--Coro (talk) 21:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes: I suspected that. Since you created that page, could you please nominate it for deletion? Moving it would only complicate the redirect "courtesy" even further :) Cesar Tort 22:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This may come as a surprise, but the history of that page indicates that you were its original creator, and made most of the edits. All I did was find it.:)--Coro (talk) 22:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I've already added a {db-owner} template there. —Cesar Tort 22:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Phantom entries courtesy of the Wikiproject template

message: I did not see any criticism section on this article, and one is needed.  I think there are writings out there that criticise some of her work for leading to false memory production, and the break up of families.  Of course, everybody likes her position of protecting children from child abuse, but some question the mechanism she uses to explain it, and there is a question of testability of her ideas, as there is in other psychoanalytical branches. It's worth looking up- I came across some criticism in print, but can't remember. Just a suggestion. 71.105.67.251 (talk) 03:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes: I've seen some (flawed) criticism in a book by Ron Rosenbaum; and an admin of the German Wikipedia posted in talk:Friedrich Nietzsche that a few sources in German criticize her. However, she doesn't promote false memories. In fact, in a couple of her books she doesn't seem to like therapy at all. When you find the reliable sources you can add them. —Cesar Tort 05:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism section needed

message: Can't we talk here why somebody considers ignorance to be an irrevelant link to this article's page?
Austerlitz -- 88.75.72.6 (talk) 18:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As said above and in my edit summaries, it would help a lot if you register and indent your posts for a neat talk page and proper discussion. —Cesar Tort 20:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and how and why do you think so? Austerlitz --88.75.221.174 (talk) 08:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "See also" removal

message: Yes, or no? or does it depend on the circumstances? Austerlitz -- 88.75.210.76 (talk) 15:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What about inserting this letter?

message: * Has it got an English edition?
It can be added.
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.203.240 (talk) 07:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.203.240 (talk) 08:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Book

message: Why all these changes back and forth - there was an initial error (12th) here, which made it even into the Sunday Times of South Africa. I corrected it on the 23rd. Then someone stumbled by, re-errecting the error based on that South-African "source". But why would such a far-off source know better than her German publisher?
Then finally there comes the White Knight with the best source of all - her own website: So do you really believe that she put in her own date of death? 
Wouldn't your time be spent better correcting the Sunday Times of South Africa, where the error is still online ()?
Here my initial correction: (cur | prev)  19:55, 23 April 2010 84.191.156.160 (talk) (19,075 bytes) (date of death changed from April 12 to 14, as reported in the German Wikipedia, quoting German media, who cite her German publisher Suhrkamp)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.91.183.205 (talk • contribs) 
:I have corrected the date to April 14, as per the obituary in The New York Times, which I've added to external links. MarmadukePercy (talk) 17:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Exact decease day

message: Now that at least two admins, who are far more knowledgeable of WP policies than me, have this article on their watchlists may I ask: Do we really need so many tags above the lead (e.g., it doesn’t look pov or OR, does it)? Cesar Tort 01:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no need for those tags.  The editor who added them has not done any work on this article and has not commented on the talk page.   --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 02:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a shortage of secondary or tertiary sources, so a tag of some kind might be in order. Drive-by tags aren't necessarily wrong.  It could be the ones in this case might have referred to an earlier version of the article; it's tough to say without going through the whole history of the article and talk page, which is why it is indeed more helpful for taggers to comment on the talk page (but it could be they did and it was deleted or archived). It does look like there's been a tendency to delete works critical of Miller, but that's just an impression from the edit history page. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 03:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The real problem, as you can see in the 2008 archives, is that Daniel Mackler published his criticism in his own blog, and a friend of Mackler self-published it (or rather printed a few hard copies of it with an ISBN number): hardly RS according to Wikipedia standards. I understand that not even Mackler has a hard copy of this edition! However, I remember that in another Wikipedia article (I believe it is Nietzsche but not sure) a German wiki admin who also edits in the English wiki mentioned some real sources critical of Miller. I have no problem at all to add critical RS on Miller. We just need to find those sources (maybe in German). Cesar Tort 04:20, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: These are separate questions.  If critical information has been published in reliable third-party sources, it can be included.  Mackler was self-published, as Cesar mentioned, so could not be used.  I don't know of any reliable source information that was deleted from the page.  The tags indicated  a dispute or problem with the content of the article, and that does not appear to be the case, so they are not needed.  The article is not a debate, it's just a description of the person and her work.  --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 05:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple tags ok? 

message: Add "Acting out"?  99.181.132.99 (talk) 05:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No please. 189.136.161.166 (talk) 01:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add "Acting out"?