Talk:Croatan

message: The "Theory of Croatian origin" section I took out was as follows:
:::Many of the early European expeditions to the western shore of the Atlantic finished with shipwrecks. So was the case with some Croatian ships from Dubrovnik in the 16th century. It is interesting to mention that the Croatan Indians in the USA could possibly be the descendants of the saved Croatian crew, as authenticated by their name, brown hair, blue eyes and some of the words in their language. Two large islands appear on the Molineaux map of Virginia, USA (1599), with the names Croatoan and Croatamonge.
:::An American writer John Lawson in his 1714 chronicle wrote that among Croatan Indians of that time there was a legend of a 16th century shipwreck with mariners who saved themselves and stayed with Indians. 
:::In attempts to find Walter Raleigh's Lost Colony inhabited by the British Empire in 1587 on the island of Roanoke (near the Croatoan island, North Carolina, USA), the searchers found a CRO carved in Roman letters on a tree in 1590. Another big tree had a bark peeled off, and carved on it in capital letters was the word CROATOAN.
:::At the Lost Colony, Ribuckon (same meaning in Croatian) meant in Algonquin Indian a fishing place or fish; Cipo was mullet fish; Cante-Cante (Croatian word for song and dance) meant to sing and dance and Sat (means time in Croatian) was time. There were many other similarities. Gray eyes and blondish hair amongst the Indians was noted for centuries. Gray eyes and light hair is found in Croatia in great numbers and not found in any other Mediterranean people.
The reference given was:  Eterovich, Adam S.: Croatia and Croatians at the Lost Colony, 1585-1590. I'll try to give some of my reasons for removing this section:
:#No real attempt was made in the section to back up any claim of a Croatian origin of the Croatan. All it really says is Croatan Indians supposedly had light skin, blue eyes, and that the English mangling of their name sounds/looks similar to a common name in many European languages for "Croatian".
:#This is definitely not a mainstream theory
:#Only one "source" was cited as a reference; the source itself does not cite or make reference to any primary sources of any kind, or any other studies of any kind with similar conclusions. The source also appears to be non-academic.
:#You can't include any (for lack of a better term) crackpot theories in an encyclopedia just by calling them "theories". If no, or hardly any, academics or experts support the theory, then it's not worthy of inclusion unless the fact that the theory exists is widely-known and thus the theory, while not accepted, is notable. This is emphatically not the case here.
Those are my primary reasons for removing the section. You'd need to provide good-quality, academic sources which demonstrate the notability and worthiness-of-inclusion of this theory, I think, and references which justify some of the individual claims made. If only one or two people are making this claim, it's non-notable. --Miskwito 00:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to add another note- it would be alright to include the "theory" if it could be demonstrated it was a very widespread legend, or had been very widely accepted at one point. That is not the case here.--Cúchullain t/c 21:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Here is another reference from The Maryland Center for Civic Education web site. There are bunch of references all over the web about this theory. You just have to search for them. Even on Amazon you can find lots of books about this!
The Maryland CCE Web site
User talk:VelikiMeshtar 21:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I just found an online version of a journal article about this and some other related issues: here. I'm still reading through it, but it's well-sourced and was published in a journal, so I'm thinking it's a source I'm more willing to trust. I'll get back to you when I'm done reading it. --Miskwito 22:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

text: thumb|Logo of Croatan envelope factory  I just found out that one of the biggest paper envelope factories in Croatia is called CROATAN, and on logo you can find medieval croatian sailor with an envelope in his hand.
The Croatan factory Web site - in croatian (quite poor site)
 --VelikiMeshtar 21:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Croatians and Croatans

message: i have to admit that this was the first thing that crossed my mind by intuition. however, i wasn't thinking they were a croatian ship wreck - this is interesting information. i was thinking they were english slaves of croatian descent. around that time period, there was a substantial slave trade from eastern to western europe, and many slaves in england of eastern european origin (the word slave comes from the ethnic group 'slav', which i suppose is only possibly defined as speakers of the slavic languages of eastern europe). if the colony was in fact primarily composed of croatian slaves, perhaps with a few masters, that would provide a reasonable explanation as to why the people in the colony fled to live with the indigenous peoples.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.24.43 (talk) 18:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: =========

message: A user has been adding this material back in. I have very serious doubts about the material and the sources provided. First, the way s/he had it formatted, all the cites were backing up the claim that light skin and hair has been reported in Croatians. I highly doubt that sources such as American Indians in North Carolina says that. It's impossible to tell which sources are supposed to give which information, and so it can't be told if this "theory" has any real backing from experts. I for one, highly doubt that it does. It sounds about as likely as the Croatan becoming to Lumbee, except that that theory is widespread, while this one is not. Thoughts?--Cúchullain t/c 02:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Croatian "theory" is back

message: I changed a paragraph from saying that the Lumbee "claimed to be Croatan" to state that the Lumbee were "thought to be descendants of..." I think this is a more accurate reflection of the history here when Henderson is considered. Henderson wrote in 1923 that "they violently resent being called Croatans... One Indian of whom I inquired why they so bitterly disliked to be called Croatans said "Croatan means nigger and is a fighting word with us." It's common knowledge that McMillan gave them this name from his Lost Colony theory, which may or may not be credible but the point is that the Lumbee ancestors did not give themselves this name. Jas392 (talk) 14:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lumbee "claimed to be Croatan" 

message: This Croatian nonsense has been added back yet again, again with absolutely no sourcing. Seriously, it's been nearly four years, this material is not appropriate for the various good reasons highlighted above. Stop adding it back.--Cúchullain t/c 15:32, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you added one source with no discernible reliability, and did not even cite it properly. You're going to have to show that your source is reliable before your material can be mentioned. Even if it were reliable (I don't believe it is), the theory receives far too much weight. Seriously, you've been doing this for four years. If you add this again without gaining consensus on the talk page, you will be blocked for edit warring.--Cúchullain t/c 14:19, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Please explain how that is a reliable source. Who is Adam S. Eterovich? Which source are you citing exactly, the book or the website? What is "croatianhistory.net" and what is its claim to be a reliable source? Etc. At any rate, the idea of a connection between Croatians and the Croatoan is handily dismissed, for instance here. As such it may be worth a brief mention that some people have proposed such a connection, but that it is dismissed.--Cúchullain t/c 16:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Croatians

message: Many of the early European expeditions to the western shore of the Atlantic finished with shipwrecks. So was the case with some Croatian ships from Dubrovnik in the 16th century. It is interesting to mention that the Croatan Indians in the USA could possibly be the descendants of the saved Croatian crew, as authenticated by their name, brown hair, blue eyes and some of the words in their language. Two large islands appear on the Molineaux map of Virginia, USA (1599), with the names Croatoan and Croatamonge.    
   
An American writer John Lawson in his 1714 chronicle wrote that among Croatan Indians of that time there was a legend of a 16th century shipwreck with mariners who saved themselves and stayed with Indians.    
    
In attempts to find Walter Raleigh's Lost Colony inhabited by the British Empire in 1587 on the island of Roanoke (near the Croatoan island, North Carolina, USA), the searchers found a CRO carved in Roman letters on a tree in 1590. Another big tree had a bark peeled off, and carved on it in capital letters was the word CROATOAN. 
Ragusa is Venetian name for city of Dubrovnik. Inhabitants are Croatians since at least 7th century if not earlier as some new research is claiming. They call themselves Hrvati and they use Croatian language. Croat in Croatian language is "Hrvat". Italians do not pronounce 'h' so they call us Croati or in singular Croato. From Italian, English call them Croatians or Croats. In Croatian, to express that you belong to something you add - "an" at the end. So citizen of the city Split is Splic-an, of Trogir is Trogir-an. So, it is possible Croat-an or Croato-an to be of Croatian origin. Another interesting thing is that we Croats use CRO as an abbreviation for our homeland Croatia, same as found on the tree. 
    
At the Lost Colony, Ribuckon (same meaning in Croatian) meant in Algonquin Indian a fishing place or fish; Cipo was mullet fish; Cante-Cante (Croatian word for song and dance) meant to sing and dance and Sat (means time in Croatian) was time. There were many other similarities. Gray eyes and blondish hair amongst the Indians was noted for centuries. Gray eyes and light hair is found in Croatia in great numbers and not found in any other Mediterranean people.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by VelikiMeshtar (talk • contribs) 14:26, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sure there were some Serbs on board the croatian ships. So that some of the Indians might have also been Serbian descendants. HA! What about that? Let the BS begin...--87.184.157.203 (talk) 10:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

text: Cante-Cante is Spanish for song and dance. I am not aware of that term existing in any Croatian dialect. Sat is an arabo-turkism that would likely have come into Croatian later than the 15th century. Also, "ribuckon" means white perch while "tetszo" means mullet. Source: A Vocabulary of Roanoke: From the Writings of Thomas Hariot, John White and John Lawson. Tommy1441 (talk) 11:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Theory of Croatian origin<ref>http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/lcolon.html A.S. Eterovich: Croatia and Croatians, and the Lost Colony, San Carlos, CA: Ragusan Press, 2003</ref>

message: Today (2012-06-24) an article appeared in the biggest Croatian daily...
Google translate of the article
VelikiMeshtart  17:00, 24 June 2012 (CET)
:: that newspaper is notorious in croatia for its very lax standards on what a newspaper story is supposed to look like. this ridiculous article is a wonderful example 93.137.43.242 (talk) 21:35, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Theory of Croatian origin - New development

message: I moved this article back to Croatan from Croatan tribe, as Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Ethnicities is clear that "tribe" should only be used for groups at a sub-ethnic level. That isn't clearly the case here. There's also no real need for disambiguation, as this is the only article that's called just "Croatan".--Cúchullain t/c 16:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved back

message: Part of the introduction currently reads: "The Croatan, like other Carolina Algonquians, suffered from epidemics of infectious disease, such as smallpox in 1698. These decimated the tribes and left them subject to colonial pressure. They are believed to have become extinct as a tribe by the early seventeenth century."  If they were decimated by smallpox in 1698, they surely did not become extinct until the early eighteenth century.  Or have I misunderstood something?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole page is in need of a re-write. Very little is referenced to any reliable sources. -- Asteuartw (talk) 18:06, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

text: I agree..the whole Croatian discussion is obviously irrelevant which thankfully is out of the article however it`s taken up way too much space here..I agree the article is all over the place and not referenced correctly although there is plenty of good information in it..my main objection to all the articles regarding the Eastern Carolina Algonquians is that there is a lot of good current research out now that is not being included check http://www.lost-colony.com I`m trying to rewrite the Roanoke Colony article atm  Lonepilgrim007 (talk) 01:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: somewhere in one of these articles is a reference to Croatoan being being a village not a tribal name...the modern town of Buxton was probably called Croatoan as was all of what is now Hatteras island south of the inlet just north of there which has since filled in most likely do to early undocumented deforestation and sea level rise..the dike along highway 12 isn`t helping much..to wherever the Hatteras inlet was located at the time..possible between Frisco [Trent] and Hatteras..the point being Croatoan was an oblong land mass at the time not a long skinny barrier island..the Croatoan territory may have included the entire Pamilico Sound area.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.231.214.100 (talk) 18:29, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extinction 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello, I have been doing research on the Croatan Indians and thought this page needed some more detail. Mollyantfarm111 (talk) 14:15, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It needs to be reorganized...most of the Outer Banks articles are a messs especially the Hatteras Indian article 2600:1702:2340:9470:200B:8D97:705A:F35B (talk) 01:13, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding information about the Croatan 

message: Why the varied spelling? How to pronounce? 100.15.42.242 (talk) 10:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology and pronunciation info.