Talk:Count of Tyrone

message: There isn't any mention of a Patrick O'Neill, son of John (Seán), but explicit mention of only son Don Hugo Eugenio. It's difficult to fathom why this Patrick stayed in Mayo, Ireland rather than join his more successful kinsmen on the continent? Yes, there is record of an O'Neill family on Martinique, Basse-Pointe and of a Valentine O'Neill in France, but can we be sure their descent from the Patrick and his supposed relationship to Seán is authentic?? I haven't been able to find this 'Jacques D'Tyrone' online.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.255.236.104 (talk) 17:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting, will review sources. Who is this "Jacques/Jacobum" de Tyrone? What is his full name, his profession? His age? Birth place? How is he related to these Martinique O'Neills? A lost cousin? Is he descended agnatically? In which country does he live?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.56.234 (talk) 23:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He would simply appear to be, after reading the article carefully, now the senior male line descendant of (the hated) Conn Bacach, the 1st Earl of Tyrone. So he does not descend from the actual Counts of Tyrone but from the person for whom the original title was created. It does not say if the new Count is also a descendant of Conn's celebrated son Shane or of a brother. In any case I think we can rely on the Vatican to have researched this carefully. DinDraithou (talk) 02:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Let's have a source that the Vatican actually did anything. I can't find any. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:02, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patrick O'Neill 

message: :The genealogical work stalled during the Second World War, but later petitions were made and after years of research and study the Vatican Secretariate of State in 2006 issued a "confirmamus" or confirmation of the dignity of Count and gave territorial reference to a closely related line that also descends in the male line from Conn Bacach O'Neill, 1st Earl of Tyrone, and is a close cousin to the 1st Count of Tyrone.  
:The Papal finding is written in Latin and reads “Jacobum de Tyrone, Comes” or Count James of Tyrone. This signifies a change in the title, as the Vatican no longer issues historical judgments that contradict the laws or findings of other sovereign nations; in this case the UK peerage title of the modern Earl of Tyrone. The change shows the familial lineage of the title, the O’Neill Earls & Counts of Tyrone, but the title has been separated from the dignity of the land (the previous title would have been written as James, Count of Tyrone). This is in recognition to agreements made in the restored relations between the Vatican and the United Kingdom in 1740.
:Recently the O’Neill clan as a whole has taken steps to organize the entire extended family, incorporating all the O’Neill family groups, septs, and associated clans.  In September 2007, under the leadership of the O'Neill of Clanaboy, to celebrate of the 400th anniversary of Hugh O’Neill, Earl of Tyrone and the Earl of Tyrconnell, the Flight of the Earls, out of Ireland, the leaders of the various O'Neill clans from across the world met in Portugal.  It was the first time in four centuries that all O’Neill leaders were in Ireland at the same time. The Association of O’Neill Clans was officially started with the family council membership granted to those invited: the Prince of Clandeboye (Portugal),the O’Neill of France, the O’Neills of Bellaghy,. None which has anything to do with the title mentioned above which is an English title not a European one and has nothing to do  with legitimate Gaelic titles owned By Don Carlos of Spain Chief of the Fews branch of the O'Neill clan and Hugo O'Neill Prince of Clandeboye the only O'Neill Chief recognized by the Irish Government and the Chief Herald of Ireland.
   
There is no source for any of this (and at least one claim is OR; Comes is the Latin for Earl)? The last paragraph is merely irrelevant; the preceding two are serious claims about living persons which are completely unsourced. -= and ignores widespread and credible claims that "Patrick O'Neill" never existed.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:02, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced and irrelevant

message: As far as I can tell the actual sources for this article are 
*A French article from le Annuaire de la noblesse de France et des maisons souveraines de l'Europe and
*An English version from the The journal of the Kilkenny and South-east of Ireland Archaeological Society from 1866, a slightly abridged translation (for example it doesn't explain to an Irish readership that the Cenell Eoghain is descended from Eogain, son of Niall of the Nine Hostages). 
Both assert the family's own claims (there are other variants of those claims) which are held by three reliable sources to be unproven. Far more seriously, this article misrepresents even those claims, with unsourced and unlikely assertions. 
The sources refer to the family as Comte de Tyrone/Count of Tyrone. But this is merely the French for Earl of Tyrone: in both versions it is used of Earl Hugh who fled in 1607. It is not a new title.
They say nothing about the Empress Josephine; nothing about fighting for the Spanish in 1778-83; and these claims are unsourced. That doesn't leave much. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 10:03, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: from 1624 is an interesting document. DinDraithou (talk) 16:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's a fascinating document. In 1624, Patrick O'Neill would have been two years old; therefore, this means Shane (mac Hugh) O'Neill, who was - by consensus - in command of a regiment in Flanders at the time, and calling himself, as the oldest  (living) legitimate son of his father, Earl of Tyrone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:03, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

text: And that he had one son: Hugo Eugenio O'Neill, born illegitimate in 1631. Patrick is an unproven invention. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:18, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: More unsourced and unsupported material

message: :Depending on how the title descent is counted, Sean was the 3rd, 4th, or 5th Earl in exile of the Earldom of Tyrone.  After the death of two of his older brothers and his father, Sean ascended to the title that was first regranted from England by the Papacy and then by the King of Spain.  Don Juan/Sean went to the Court of Brussels and at a young age was a page to the Spanish viceroy.  The newer Comital title was granted by the Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain and the Netherlands, translated to "Count of Tyrone" and created in 1623 as a Spanish Netherlands title, for Patrick to honor his father Sean who was the Colonel of the Irish in Flanders.  According to his will, Sean left his Spanish title and possessions to his other son Hugo Eugene O'Neill.       
::All this is unsourced. It is incompatible even with the family claims, which make no mention of a creation. (The first sentence is merely confusing; Shane O'Neill claimed to be Earl of Tyrone, but the numbering is not of those in exile, it is of the Earls of Tyrone from Conn Bacagh onward; the uncertainty is whether to count his uncle Brien and his brother Henry.)  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Creation

message: :At the time of the Irish Rebellion of 1641, Patrick, possibly his father, and his cousin General Eoghan or Owen Roe O'Neill, and many of the other family members serving in Continental armies returned to Ireland and fought in the Irish Confederate Wars (1641–53). One source shows that Sean commanded Owen Roe's cavalry in the rebellion and was "removed" with Owen to County Mayo at the end of rebellion.  Some sources show him in Ireland after 1646.  However, multiple others show him dying in 1641 while leading his Regiment in Spain.  Based on a modern translation of his Last Will and Testament, written in 1640, it is most likely that Sean died in Spain, as his will was dated there just prior to his death.  General Owen Roe's death in 1649 and the eventual defeat of the Irish during the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland in 1649-1653 left the family in Rathfrann, Co. Mayo.  In 1646, Patrick married Catherine O'Dogherty of Ardmir and Innishowen.  They had a son named James O'Neill, born and baptised in Rathfrann, Mayo in 1660.  His eminent godparents were Dominick O'Donnell and Honora de Burgh, both of Irish noble families<:ref>"Genealogical Translation Irish to Latin, O'Neill", by Hugh Buidhe McCurtin, translated in 1739, French National Documents, Saumur</ref>.
::The footnote is bull; it is badly taken from the Kilkenny report of the family claims, and "French National Documents" is a falsehood; it was in the personal collection of M. le vicomte de Tyrone, who happened to be a magistrate. 
::The rest of this incompletely represents the conflict of the sources: the family alone, only, assert that Shane and Patrick were in Ireland with Owen Roe; other sources say Shane was dead and never mention Patrick(one life of Owen Roe O'Neill mentions  Shane only to suggest that his inaction was just as well for the national cause). At exactly this time, Owen Roe said that the head of the family was "Don Constantino" who was in Spain. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Rebellion of 1641

message: :The family's sons served proudly as officers in Dillon's or Walsh's Irish Regiments, in the Irish Brigade (French) Army.  During the American Revolution, at least one officer of the family served with General Bernardo de Gálvez y Madrid, Count of Gálvez of the Spanish Army, under French approval, in his campaigns against the English in Louisiana, Georgia, and Florida.
::Unsourced; "Irish Brigade (French) Army" is less than English. That O'Neills served with Dillon, Walsh or Galvez is unsurprising; that any were members of this family is unsupported. (There's a great difference between the Martinique militia and regiments of the Line.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Service

message: :In the late 18th century, the Comté de Tyrone was a fellow sugar plantation owner and friends with the Tascher de le Pagerie family there in Martinique.  This proved eventful when Napoleon Bonaparte took as his wife, Marie Josèphe Rose Tascher de la Pagerie, born in Les Trois-Îlets, Martinique, and widow of Alexandre, Vicomte de Beauharnais. She was a daughter of Joseph-Gaspard de Tascher, chevalier, seigneur de la Pagerie, lieutenant of infantry of the navy, and his wife, the former Rose-Claire des Vergers de Sanois. When their friend Josephine became Empress of France in 1804, the fortunes of the Counts O'Neill improved as well.  Jacques, the 6th Count, took his two sons and joined the Irish Legion of Napolean.  The three of them were officers in the 7th Cuirrassier Regiment.  During the war, his son Francois Henri won the Legion de Honor. The second sons of the Count were given the courtesy style of Vicomte de Tyrone. Jean Laurent O'Neill and Francois Henri O'Neill were the 1st and 2nd such holders. Both were officers in Irish regiments of the French Army at different times.
::Unsourced and unsupported as far as I can find. That a French family claiming nobility should call its younger sons vicomte (especially after the Revolution) does not require a grant from the state. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Josephine

message: He is, at least, verifiable. But the claim that he was a junior member of the family of Friedrich I, Grand Duke of Baden. Herman was later Prime Minister of Baden. is not confirmable. I have spelt his name and title correctly, and will supply German genealogical sources, if nobody else does.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:54, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Baron Herman

message: This subscription-only website and the following quote from Ruvigny (ignore the scanning errors) may be useful to somebody else. At this point, only the header and the bibliography are undone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Quote from Ruvigny

message: So may some of these. Most of them are copies from somebody else's notes or are misleading; for example, Ruvigny published in 1914, not 2000. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Bibliography