Talk:Biblical inerrancy/Archive 2

message: Frankly, this article reads more like an argument for Inerrancy than an explication of it.  For example, to say that the view was "ably" defended by the Chicago Statement stretches NPOV.  Likewise, the overly broad equation of classical doctrines of inspiration and authority with inerrancy is often used by Evangelicals to bolster the inerrantist case, but significantly misinterprets those positions.  The article makes no mention of the philosophical underpinnings of inerrancy (i.e. foundationalism), and fails to recognize the doctrine (or at least the language) of inerrancy as a fundamentalist innovation.  It also fails to give any attention to the most significant criticisms of inerrancy from (e.g.) Grenz and Murphy. -- (from User:63.146.9.89)
:Good observations.  KHM03 01:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. This is part of the rationale for the proposed merging-in of the material from Alleged inconsistencies in the Bible - atm we effectively have one page by those for inerrancy, and one by those opposed to it. For a better balance, I think the pages should be merged (I'm happy to help with this). Where do we vote for this? Thomas Ash 18:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I see the merge suggestion at the head of the article has been replaced - was this because a vote was taken? Thomas Ash 12:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Full disclosure; my personal opinion is that the Bible is hogwash in terms of factual accuracy. That said, I wonder whether the merge you suggest would be  a bad idea. I confess that this might not be the best reason, in terms of building an encyclopedia, for making a decision but I reckon such a merge would cause one almighty edit war; whereas the current state of affairs might tend towards each potential combatant feeling they have their own patch on which they can air a view. I hasten to point out I've had nothing to do with edits on either page, nor with the removal of the merge boiler/suggestion. --bodnotbod 01:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Point of View 

message: *I would oppose a move.  I am no fan of inerrancy and do not find it particular Biblical or Christian.  That said, WP doesn't have an article "Beliefs about Atheism" or "Beliefs about Calvinism" or whatever.  Inerrancy is a prominent view in Christendom and needs to have an article named appropriately.  The article needs to mention, of course, the problems with the theory...that's NPOV and fair...but a move is not necessary.  KHM03 22:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for commenting, if you feel you have a good grasp on the official position of the vatican on inerrency, by all means please edit this article. Just remember that our view points are irrelivant and that any quotes or claims must be cited. (not too hard with allot of the doctirinal stuff. Most of it's online somewhere anyway). :) --DjSamwise 02:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move 

message: This article is no more than an argument in favour of inerrancy. It should be deleted.
:I agree that it's biased as stands, but it can be salvaged - help us! Thomas Ash 22:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You have some sound ideas, PiCo; go ahead and be bold in those edits!  KHM03 11:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The word inerrancy is a generally-accepted theological term used to describe this particular concept. --Ronconte 23:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete 

message: I've made a large edit to produce a new text. Please bear in mind that this is a proposal only. I've tried to represent the Biblical innerancy fairly but succinctly, in a way that can satisfy everyone. Please don't simply revert to the old text without discussing first the new proposal. I repeat, I'm trying to be fair to everyone.
I believe that a radical re-write is needed for 2 reasons: First, the old one is just too long, and the longer it gets, the worse it gets - the concepts and history of inerrancy should be capable of being expressed in half the persent length. Secondly, and more importantly, the old text doesn't do what an encyclopedia entry should do - instead of simply setting out the idea of inerrancy, it attempts to offer proofs (or disproofs, depending on one's bias). It forgets that an encyclopedia is intended to describe, and not to convert.
That said, here's what I've done, and why:
Introduction
*...has been drastically shortened, in keeping with Wiki guidelines. Some material has been moved down into explanatory sections further below, some has been deleted. (If you think something has been deleted because you can't see the wording you're used to, look carefully: I've also re-dreafted in order to tighten up the language, so that your idea may be there still, but in new words). Essentially only the first sentence from the old version has been kept, with a second new sentence added.
*I removed the part that says the belief hold that the Bible is "in every detail infallible and without error in the original autographs", as it seems from the article itself that this represents only one form of the belief. 
*The new second sentence clarifies that there are various shades to the belief. The present article tries to explain some of these details in the introduction, but I feel it's better to move those details to the subsections.
Basis of belief
*I've emphasised what I gather is the basis of the belief, which is essentially theological - that if God is infallible, then the Bible must be too, at least in some sense. (In fact I don't think you could be a Christian and logically hold any other view).
*I've also moved here any material which sets out the particular positions of the Catholic and Protestant traditions, so far as these relate to why they believe the Bible to be inerrant. Discussion of the nature of that inerrancy are reserved for sections further down.
Biblical Literalism
A new section, because it seems to me that this is a position slightly different from that of the Chicago Statement - the Chicago people wouldn't agree that there is a specific text which is totally inerrant in every word, and they wouldn't agree (I think) that the KJV was Divinely inspired (which would imply that the KJV can't be checked against earlier Greek or Hebrew texts).
Mainstream Evangelical Position in the US
So called because this is in fact a very US-centric view (it may not seem that way if you're an American, but it does if you're not). Which isn't to say that there aren't plenty of Evangelicals outside the US who do subscribe to the Chicago Statement - but they do tend to be offshoots of US churches. Anyway, this is the section where I treat the Chicago Statement.
Postmodern Christianity
I cut two paragraphs off this because they seemed to me incomprehensible. If I can't understand what the author is saying, then other casual users of Wiki probably can't either. I left one para which seems clear enough and possibly useful. If the author feels that anything essential has been left out, please go ahead aand put it back - but please, please, put it in language that anyone can understand.
Views affirming, qualifying and against
I expect to cop most flack over this. I cut it because it's all polemical, just a list of places where various people think the Bible either errs or doesn't err, depending on taste. That's not the business of an encyclopedia, which is to explain, not to prove or convert. Things like this are fine on a bulletin board or in a chat room, but not here. (Anyway, it was taking up over half the article without adding anything of value).
Ok, views please.
Responses
A good rewrite in general, and it certainly benefited from the shortening (the intro now looks like a proper Wikipedia intro). I've made a few edits:
* Qualified description of the RC position in 'Basis of belief', adding "(at least in vital matters of faith and morals)". I know you give the relevant quote under the Catholic section, but a) some people might not read that! and b) the earlier description gave a misleading impression im(h)o.
* At the end of 'Biblical literalism', I added "Modern translations have however diverged from the KJV at numerous points, sometimes on the basis of better access to early texts." I think this is fair enough - uncontroversially factual and valuable information. I don't think we should keep what could be interpreted as criticism (or justification) out of the article at all costs.
That's it so far - I'll add to the above list as and when I make further edits. Now for my criticisms/suggestions...
* I'll start with what's not really a criticism :) There's been some debate on whether it should be 'Biblical' or 'biblical'. I notice you capitalised. I tend to think this looks best, but thought we should arrive at some consensus on what's correct.
* I think the section on postmodernism needs be expanded, or else cut. It's too unclear atm. Does "the author" refer to God? If so, the position appears... er... kooky, and it's controversial whether it deserves the name 'Christianity'.
* I do think some brief mention of arguments against inerrancy is called for, with a 'main article' link at the top of the section (of course, there are several possible candidates for this - Alleged inconsistencies in the Bible is one of the mores specific, but quite targeted on Biblical inerrancy.
But, again, a good rewrite in general! Regards, Thomas Ash 10:10, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Note:  There are a lot of evangelicals in the US who do not believe in inerrancy.  We need to make sure that the article reads "some" or "many" in that regard.  KHM03 00:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed new text 

message: There does not seem to be consensus for the move, so I am removing the request from WP:RM. Please re-add the request if consensus is reached. Thanks! --HappyCamper 19:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move request 

message: Anonymous user 202.180.83.6 has repeatedly placed a poor link on the article.  It apparently is his/her own personal site.  It began as a personal attack site against a California evangelist, and I repeatedly pointed out Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy.  The user then apparently changed the site to a different address and altered a bit of the language, and has still repeatedly placed it on the site.  I have pointed out Wikipedia's spam policy to the user, to little avail.  The user was blocked earlier for other violations.  I just wanted to alert the editors of this article about these violations.  Thanks...KHM03 01:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The link began as a personal attack site and was repeatedly removed as suc.  The site owner then changed the address and has continually re-added it; it remains spam.  KHM03 23:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spam 

message: Although I do not believe in biblical inerrancy, this article seemed neutral to me.  I didn't read anything suggesting it as a truth, simply a belief that some people have.  Feel free to point out any specific portion that are bias or otherwise inappropriate.
Lue3378 02:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I removed two new additions, not because they were poor sites, but because I think we need to try and keep the balance here between pro- and con- inerrancy views.  We've had several instances of spam in the last couple of months, and we want to keep some sort of peace, consensus, and balance.  Maybe we can go through and pick only the best links in each section.  KHM03 18:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 9 Feb 2006

message: These links below appear to fail to cite scholarship nor are they cited by scholars.  I deleted them.
Here they are:
*Skeptics Annotated Bible
* A Few Bible Contradictions
* ErrancyWiki
I think it's a good idea to maintainlinks to scholarly work and delete links to work that just appears to be inflamming argument for it's own sake. --DjSamwise 00:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see how ErancyWiki can be described as "unscholarly".  Richard Carrier is undoubtedly a scholar, and his article appeals to relevant scholarship, as do numerous other entries.  And if anyone is aware of any relevant scholarly articles pertaining to any Biblical problem described therein, they can simply add a link to whatever scholarly article they consider to be appropriate!  ErrancyWiki is intended to become the most scholarly source of information on individual Biblical errors on the Internet.  I am restoring the link. --Robert Stevens 15:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted unscholarly links 

message: Not in violation of 3RR rule.  Did individual one entry edits.  199.29.6.2 20:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have been reported.  KHM03 20:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not in violation of 3RR rule.  Did individual one entry edits.   

message: (see Biblical inerrancy/rewrite)
In the section Basis of belief:
: Since it is the Bible itself which asserts the infallibility of God, the principle of biblical inerrancy runs the risk of resting on circular reasoning.
This statement confuses faith (belief) with reason (logic). Those who believe in inerrancy simply have faith that it is so; they say that the Bible was written or inspired by an infallible single God. This is not a rational argument, fallacious or not; therefore circular reasoning is a straw man. 
I realize that many supporters of the position taken invite this kind of attack by using and misusing the tools of rational argument to advance their faith. But any attempt to justify any system of belief using the tools of logic eventually ends up in a chain of circular reasoning. Given a set of axioms, many conclusions may be justified through logic (and others falsified). But axioms are unprovable. Even that bastion of rationality, mathematics, is ultimately upheld by assumptions that cannot be proven or even shown to be self-consistent. 
I'm tempted to remove the statement in question in its entirety; but I can see that it's valid to criticize the attempts of some to defend inerrancy with fallacious logic. But this needs to be reworded so as to point the finger at the weak defense itself, not at the thing defended. My failure to prove it is night does not advance the notion that it is day.
My chosen wording for this statement: 
: Since it is the Bible itself which asserts the infallibility of God, the principle of biblical inerrancy rests on faith alone. 
This is true, accurate, neutral, and still invites the reader to question that faith (as barren of logic). This is as far as we need to go here in critique of the principle itself. 
The difficulty is that the very next paragraph begins Catholic teaching seeks to avoid this problem... 
* I don't see that faith is a problem -- personally, I avoid it whenever possible and hew closely to a rational view of the world; but others find it useful and I'm not able to say that's entirely wrong. In the end, we must all believe in something, if only in rationality; and that faith can never be justified by logic. 
* I may be ignorant of Catholicism, but it seems to me that all denominations point to the resurrection as evidence of Jesus' mission. This paragraph conflates Biblical inerrancy with Papal infallibility. I think this article would be better to stick with a single topic. 
* Nor does resurrection itself remove the need to believe; it does not permit one to make assertions of fact free from faith. It's entirely possible that teen alien visitors resurrected Jesus as a holiday prank using advanced medical technology. Christians simply believe otherwise. 
I'll go further and say that all three paragraphs -- Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant -- don't belong in this section. These are descriptions of how inerrancy is valued, modified, or compared with other authority; and this ground is covered in the remaining sections. They say nothing about the basis of belief -- which is just belief itself. 
This returns me to a criticism of the section header and the lead The theological basis of the belief... The longer I hammer at this text, the less meaning it seems to contain. Would it not be equally true to say: 
: There is no logical basis for inerrancy; it is a belief. This is beating a dead horse. 
The remaining value in the first paragraph is the exposure that inerrantists range from literalists to those who permit a more liberal, traditional interpretation. This ground is covered briefly in the article lead and then in detail in the next three sections -- indeed, the bulk of the article consists of classification of various lines of inerrant thought. 
I prefer to fix things rather than insist others do; but this is not my area of expertise. I suggest that: 
* The first section be eliminated entirely and all text within be rewritten and merged either to the article lead or to other sections. 
* A new section be written exposing the Orthodox view on inerrancy; this will receive the appropriate paragraph from the first, deleted section. Right now this is a serious omission. 
* It would probably be wise as well to note that there is a major position that opposes inerrancy, yet still considers itself well within mainstream Christianity. This should be noticed in the article lead and also given its own section. 
* And, yes, it's appropriate to summarize the rationalist/materialist/agnostic position here, rather than somewhere else. 
* The article as a whole would be improved if all six sections thus far -- literalists, conservative evangelists, Catholic, Orthodox, and opponents of both kinds -- were demoted to subsections of a single section, Interpretations or perhaps Positions. This major section should be introduced with a brief summary. 
* This opens the door to other material needed to flesh out the article, such as the history of inerrancy as a doctrine. There is room for two or three more major sections. This topic is too notorious to be passed over lightly. 
As I say, I'm not competent to do all this; but I've constructed a sort of skeleton rewrite of the article. I hope it may prove useful. 
My bias: I consider the subject of this page to be an article of faith, not a point of fact; however the faith is widely held and that itself is fact. I don't share this faith but I see no problem with describing it objectively. This is not the place to attack or support the positions taken, only to explain them. John Reid 21:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skeleton rewrite 

message: Once upon a time the "pro" and "con" subsections of this article really were pro and con - and how! That situation no longer holds, and so I merged the two. PiCo 11:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  merged external links subsections 

message: Would it not be appropriate to give evidences of where the Bible, as recorded, is not felt to be original, but the addition/error of later copyists?  Currently, the article seems to focus solely on the philosophy of inerrancy without addressing example where some Bible scholars feel the Bible contains errors of several varieties included.  I am thinking of the Johannine comma, John 1:1-18, last 12 verses of Mark, the challenge of early Christianity in maintaining the written word without trained copyists, etc.  I am torn and seek other opinions.  Storm Rider 00:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems reasonable to me.  I'm not an inerrantist but do think we need to be respectful toward the view.  KHM03 00:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: KHM, as with all religious subjects, a high degree of respect should be maintained.  The object is not to "prove" the Bible is errant, but rather what what current manuscript scholarship has added to our current understanding.  You seem to have some of the same trepidations that I have; it makes me think of the old adage where angels fear to tread, fools walk blindly in.  I would ask for all of us to be diligent in maintaining a neutral position through proper use of references as we proceed.  Personally, I fall into the camp that believes the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly.  Translation errors to not disprove the veracity of the work, but we should simply be aware of them.  I will attempt to add some language this week.  Storm Rider 00:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I reviewed the history sections of both the article and the discussion page.  This page has gone through conflict and I do see your point.  The article seems to evade the question of biblical translations, the early copyists of scripture, and the conflicts between the manuscripts known to exist.  Errors took many forms; accidental and intentional.  Do you think the article would be iimproved to include some information regarding this history?  If it were included I think we could sidestep the whole issue of what verses are "contested" as being part of original scripture.  Storm Rider 17:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: My intent would be to focus on how manuscripts are read versus how some versions of the Bible currently read.  I think if we focus simply on how manuscripts came into being and how they differ we may succeed.  I do not want to get into the position of say which is better, only that some are regarded as closer to the autographs and differ from current scripture.  You second Eve scripture would be appropriate; however, I am not familiar with it.  I tend to resist going to deeply into OT manuscripts and focus on NT documents.  Thanks for your help and viewpoint; I find them valuable.  Storm Rider 23:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence of Errors

message: The phrase "Authenticity, and inerrancy, therefore resides in the earliest and most accurate texts. Of course, because no one has access to these original, inerrant autographs, this claim is impossible to prove." is problematic (and not NPOV) ... If said writer had the original autographs, how would he/she  be able to prove their inerrancy? ... The absence of the earliest versions clearly raises some questions, but presumably the adhernts of inerrancy would argue that the subsequent copies were guided by the same inspiration and reflect inerrant versions of the originals. 
----—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.21.251.195 (talk • contribs) 21:12, 29 May 2006.
:I am not sure where, but I read a very interesting article about the tradition of the Hebrew scribes.  Basically, they held that the newest manuscripts were the most reliable.  In particular, because over time the older manuscripts and scrolls would become worn and aged and more difficult to read.  Now, we know based on historical records the pains which they took to preserve the Hebrew Bible.  I am not certain that the same traditions existed early in the Christian church, or else there would not be so much debate over Byzantine versus Alexandrian text types and so on.  Either way, the point is that people the believe in biblical inerrancy believe that in addition inspiring the original writings themselves, God has inspired their preservation as well.  From a doctrinal perspective, this makes sense.  It is sort of like if a teacher tells you will be tested on such and such material and the teacher's assisstant hands out notes on the material but tells you he isn't sure if it is the same as what the teacher will use to write the test from.  You would rightly say that the teacher needs to make sure that he gives the correct information to the assisstant.  Otherwise, how you can be expected to study for a test when you don't the correct information that the test will cover. El Cubano 22:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anon's comments

message: I deleted this sentence:
"Infallibility and inerrancy refer to the original texts of the Bible, not to translations of it."
This isn't strictly true - there's a strand which holds the KJV to be an inspired English translation. KJV literalism isn't exactly the mainstream, but it's important enough to mean that this sentence can't stay. PiCo 02:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However, this is a very common position taken, just search google. Maybe we need to cite a source and qualify the claim by saying "sometimes/often" or "Some/most Christians state..." But I do not feel that having one counter example of something taht you say yourself isn't the mainstream is enough to simply remove an actual argument used by some inerrants.--Andrew c 02:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  Although KJV-only is not a common position, TR-only is more common, as well as the idea that any translation undertaken by godly men is inspired.  Though, I am not aware of any major proponents of the latter. El Cubano 02:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Question:  Is the argument that original texts are true and translations may not necessarily be so?  Given that no "original" documents exist, is there a source that clarifies the position?  Storm Rider (talk) 04:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The spectrum goes something like this: it's all lies --- only the "originals" are inspired --- the originals and their copies are inspired (in the original language) --- any translation is of the original is inspired --- only particular translation(s) of the original are inspired --- the translation(s) are more inspired than the original.  This is a simplification, but kind of gets the point across.  Other issues that complicate it is the issue of what constitutes an original.  For example, Textus Receptus, Masoretic Text, Critical Text, Alexandrian Text, Byzantine Text and so on.  Personally, I believe that any TR-based translation undertaken by godly men is the inspired and preserved word of God.  People like Peter Ruckman and others who subscribe to his beliefs believe that the KJV is an advanced revelation.  That is, if there is a difference between the KJV and any document considered to be an original, the KJV represents a further revelation from God and takes precedence.  It is really a complex issue and simply stating that adherents to biblical inerrancy believe originals are inspired and translations are not is simply not true. El Cubano 04:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Andrew C. that it is the most commonly held view, in scholarship as with most Christians who believe in inerrency hold that the original manuscripts are inerrent and most modern translations are adequate representations of that but that minor translational errors occur but not in a significant enough way as to cause doctrinal error. th KJV only belief is by far a less than 1% belief. --DjSamwise 17:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the issue is that some inerrants admit that there are alleged errors and contradictions in the translations and manuscripts we have (in fact, how can this be denied?), but they claim the hypothetical (no longer existent) autographs were themselves inerrant. It's easy to make claims that cannot be verified, right? Anyway, since this position does exist, how can it be re-incorporated with the article in a NPOV manner that everyone is happy with?--Andrew c 19:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never heard of someone who believed in inerrancy and accepted that there are manuscripts with errors.  I know that some folks believe that certain groups of manuscripts are no good (e.g., the Alexandrian manuscripts and Dead Sea Scrolls).  However, that is not an indication of a belief in errors in the manuscripts, just that those manuscripts were not produced under inspiration of God.  That alone would disqualify them from being held as inerrant.  El Cubano 21:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  PLease allow me to clarify. Whereever human opinion is involved there is error. Go to any website of any seminary that believes in inerrent scripture and the words "in the orignial" always appear. God canot lie and when His word was first recorded it was perfect. The manuscripts we have now are prooven by historical record to be extremely reliable with no poblematically significant changes. (the dead sea scrolls confirmed this) However with every transaltion there is always the same/new argument that particular wording is incorrect or that the tense is wrong or whatever.. So go check it out, look at the beliefs of http://www.dts.edu/about/doctrinalstatement/ arguably one of the strongest proponents of inerrency today. Note the words "as appears in the original manuscripts". Again, this is not problematic because the manuscripts we had 100 years ago and the manuscrpits that were found at Wadi QumRan (dead sea scrolls), even though the new ones were 1000 years older than enything else we had they still confirmed thier accuracy. :) But just because some joe translates a new version and slaps the name "Bilbe" on it doesn't make it inerrent right? --DjSamwise 05:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Please elaborate.. when have you ever seen a Scholar blame an error on poor copying? --DjSamwise 05:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you. I don't think its perfect yet (a couple weasel words, and maybe it draws too much attention to the KJV-only movement, when there may be other inerrants who prefer another translation...) but as it stands I'm glad we all could compromise and settle on this. A side note, you may want to look at WP:STAR. You do not have to be an admin or anything special to reward other wikipedians. --Andrew c 22:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inerrancy of translations 

message: I am a Christian but totally opposed to Biblical innerracy. Let me tell you why. One counterexample destroys inerrancy. We may sure that God doesn't change, agreed? Consider then Genesis 11;1-9 the Tower of Babel. Are to believe that there was one human language until people tried to build a tower up to Heaven and God felt so threatened by this he created multiple languages to confuse man? Yet the same God had no apparent objection to men landing on the Moon in the 20th century. Come on. Jesus asks us to accept God like children but not like idiots. As for the Bible being inerrant because the Bible says so - always something of a circular argument - consider 2 Corinthians 3; 2-6 "The letter killeth but the spirit gives life." Surely we have learnt *something* in the 2500 years since the Old Testament was written?
SmokeyTheFatCat 14:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: smokeys opinion

message: Removed false definition of "Textual Critisism". Feel free to try again.. I might when I get the time. --DjSamwise 21:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you explain this one a bit further please? The Textual criticism article seems to be in line with the use of this phrase in this article.--Andrew c 21:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The most obvious error in the paragraph was that textual critisicm is a tool of adherrants of inerrency when in fact textual criticism is a technique more like than not in todays academic environment to be used to attempt to disprove the inerrency of the Bible. It shouldn't be listed as a key tool of the inerrencist. :) <-- neat word. --DjSamwise 00:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Let's please have a discussion regarding the "Textual Critism remark as well as the "Historical Method" before any furhter revisions. I'd like to point out again that niether presupose Biblical inerrency, choosing rather to consider thier observations more inerrent than the scripture. If you feel the burning need to insert your view on that again Please created a new section for it, appropriately titled and cited. Thanks --DjSamwise 16:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If in your opinion you feel the need to represent a certain perspective, please do it in the appropriate section and with the approrpiate verifiabillity. Don't create a subject called how the Xfactor do it and then start writing about the Yfactor. Especiialy if the information is false. @@--DjSamwise 13:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am totally confused. The section is on how biblical reliability is determined. A brief reference to how mainstream scholarship determine reliability is more than justified under the NPOV policy (have you read it?) Just because inerrants use one set of criteria does not mean we censor other POVs. And how are my statements inaccurate? Is the historical method and textual criticisms not tools used by historians to determine biblical reliability? We need a 3rd opinion so I'm putting in a RfC. --Andrew c 14:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you for taking your time to give a third opinion. I like your suggestion, but I'm not sure that I am the one who could properly impliment it. I will give it a shot if necessary, but I'll wait to see how DjSamwise responds to your post. Thanks again.--Andrew c 23:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just got back on after a long haitus. And I agree in part. My writing is not great. I need to assimilate others' suggestions and the methods of hostorians do not have a place in the opening line of a section describing the view of how biblical inerrency is established. I think of the article in this way.. I am a student and I want to know more of the subject so I get here and instead of organized point by point discussion of the topic I see random editorial opinions strewn all over the place as if people are shouting to have thier opinion heard. Andrew, if you need this to be a debate who am I to say you shouldn't post your stuff. Just make a different section for it allowing the section of verifiable and published view of the experts on the subject to stand. Like I said if I were a student and wanted to find solid information that's what I'd want a full solid chunk of good information, followed by another. Please if I've erred in the ways of wiki on this view, let me know. --DjSamwise 14:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There.. I've moved the textual critisism part to the section on establishment of the autograph which seems more appropriate. --DjSamwise 14:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misnomers 

message: First of all, I think some of us should have A nice cup of tea and a sit down. Try your utmost to discuss and reach compromise, rather than just reverting. Now, DjSamwise, I don't think it's possible to have your preferred paragraph as is - no offence, but it isn't particularly stylish, and could do with a little wikifying, so stop reverting it as is, and try to take on board other people's improvements. I do however, agree that it seems a little jarring to have the methods historians examine biblical inerrancy in a section on establishing it, so perhaps it would be more appropriate to have a section, not on how inerrencists establish inerrancy, but on general evidence or lack therof for inerrancy. That way, you could mention the evidence inerrencists give and the methods they use to gather it, with the caveat that these are not the techniques used by mainstream historians, and the problems this causes. One last thing; could all of you please try not to make as many edits in a row - it increases the load on the servers, and makes it very hard to get a picture of what's going on. Put all your changes into one edit - if the edit summary isn't big enough, put it on talk. --Scott Wilson 10:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for taking your time to give a third opinion. I like your suggestion, but I'm not sure that I am the one who could properly impliment it. I will give it a shot if necessary, but I'll wait to see how DjSamwise responds to your post. Thanks again.--Andrew c 23:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just got back on after a long haitus. And I agree in part. My writing is not great. I need to assimilate others' suggestions and the methods of hostorians do not have a place in the opening line of a section describing the view of how biblical inerrency is established. I think of the article in this way.. I am a student and I want to know more of the subject so I get here and instead of organized point by point discussion of the topic I see random editorial opinions strewn all over the place as if people are shouting to have thier opinion heard. Andrew, if you need this to be a debate who am I to say you shouldn't post your stuff. Just make a different section for it allowing the section of verifiable and published view of the experts on the subject to stand. Like I said if I were a student and wanted to find solid information that's what I'd want a full solid chunk of good information, followed by another. Please if I've erred in the ways of wiki on this view, let me know. --DjSamwise 14:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There.. I've moved the textual critisism part to the section on establishment of the autograph which seems more appropriate. --DjSamwise 14:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Third opinion|Third opinion]]

message: I removed most of the refferences to Prostestant in favor of Evangelical. reason being is that the title Protestant referrs to one's belief about Catholosism. Those who consider themselves Evangelicals hold a wide variation of beliefs about Catholics (from Apostates to Equals). Most(many) Charismatic, pentacostal and non-denom groups do not use the term Protestant. The only problem with this is it leaves out the Mainstream Churches (Lutherans, Church of Christ, etc). Who may not consider themselves Evangelical.. --DjSamwise 21:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK I see an error in my edits so I reverted to Protesant. I'm considering reworking this article so that the various stances are not listed in order of which groups hold them to be true. Hmmm.. any suggestions? --DjSamwise 21:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protestent vs Evangelical 

message: This section is poorly written in that it takes one aspect of what inerrantists consider and labels it, "How they do it". I altered the section to be more accurate to such books as are written by the bibliologists Geisler and Nix on that very subject. Please don't revert. Add to it if you need to but dont blatently discount the currently widely accepted scholarly material on the subject. Thanks. --DjSamwise 00:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How Inerrantists establish reliability

message: Would someone mind helping fix these (especially mine) I can't seem to get them to show up appropriately andit would be really cool to have all the citations in thier place linking to the source at the bottom (I'm new to wikki tags if ya can't tell) :) Thanks! And you guys that have been exchanging edits with me, keep up the good work this article is becoming clearer and more useful! --DjSamwise 00:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your best bet is to copy and paste the text from template:cite web and fill in as much information as possible, then deleting the categories left blank. If you have any specific questions, I'd be glad to try and help. Also, you can look at other working pages and try to copy their working code. --Andrew c 15:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much, please be patient while I learn. ;) --DjSamwise 16:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Links and Citations

message: From top to bottom:
*Citing another wiki does not seem to go along with citing Wikipedia:Reliable sources.
*Neither link said God coauthored these books, so I changed to the wording of the reference "inspired by God".
*Used the template:cite web to format the citation
*There was a one sentence paragraph, so I combined it with another paragraph that fit.
*"Multitude" seems like a hyperbole, toned down the POV by changing word to "a number of".
*Did some minor POV issues to the new paragraph that cites Geisler
*Fixed a LOT of spelling errors. Please run spell check before adding content. Also, the semicolon is generally used to seperate complete sentences. A comma can seperate multiple subjects.
*Rearranged see also
*Combined 'references' with 'literature', alphabetized
--Andrew c 15:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent thank you. Several things I shold comment on, the POV of the established experts is wha we're going for here yes? In our writing we maintian neutrlity in presenting thier point of view. That is we don't endorse or discount it but demonstrate what thier POV is. 
Also, IN the section "How inerr.. establish.." You keep bringing in how Historians establish reliabillity. Do to it being a different discussion altogether, Please consider a new section entitled "The Historians view of iner.. " Instead of presenting their view in that section. --DjSamwise 16:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: OK I created a Historical Perspective section to aleviate confusion of topics. Enjoy. :) --DjSamwise 17:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  my edit 

message: This article does not discuss, even briefly, the way mainline protestantism views biblical inerrancy, nor the history these views. It would be very useful if someone wrote a section on this -- I would, but my ignorance is holding me back (well, and time). Furthermore, we should mention the views of a church as important as the Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland, and other European Lutheran views. Even if they arent inerrancists, some of them used to be, and a paragraph about this is needed. --Zantastik talk 00:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mainline protestantism 

message: Ok here it is. Please, wikipedia is not a primary source. Summarize, and or include a much more concise quote.
11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself. In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted.
Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.
To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another.
But, since Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God. (Second Vatican Council, Dei Verbum, n. 11 & 12)
--Andrew c 06:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  giant quote 

message: The article says "In 1978 a large gathering of Protestant churches, including representatives of the Conservative, Reformed and Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Baptist denominations, adopted the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy." There is no monolithic "Lutheran Church." Major Lutheran churches in the US include the more liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. the more conservative Missouri Synod, and the extremely conservative Wisconsin Synod. They very rarely agree on anything and rarely work together on anything, except some worldwide relief efforts. There is likely an increasing ageeement with inerrancy as one moves from left to right among them.  When I look at the article for Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy it refers to "300 evangelical scholars at a conference sponsored by the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy." The article identifies five men who are in their own articles said to be Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Reformed Presbyterian and Calvinist. Without further identification of any Lutheran, Methodist, or other Protestant mainstream denominations having official representatives, this article goes way too far in making unsupported claims that mainstream protestant denominations support biblical inerrancy. Please provide some support for that claim, or I will trim it back to saying that the Chicago Statement showed that fundamentalist protestant denominations support inerrancy. I have seen articles on the home pages of some protestant denominations to say that they do not support inerrancy at all, that they perhaps see the Bible as inspired and as inerrant in faith in morals, but not in science and history. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America  (4.9 million members) website at http://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=16 says that that Lutheran denomination does not believe in biblical inerrancy. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (2.6 million members) website says that denomination does indeed believe in biblical inerrancy, at http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2516 . The Wisconsin Synod (400,000 members)says "When the church fathers of the past referred to the Bible as the Word of God, inspired, infallible, inerrant, all of these terms meant the same thing: they believed that since the very words of Scripture were given by God, they were true in everything that they said.  The reason that it is especially important to stress the word "inerrant" today is that some, including many or even most in the ELCA, have watered down the other words to make them mean less than they did in the past." at their website http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=39&cuItem_itemID=12772 . The article speaks of a "Wesleyan" viewbut should include a link to the United Methodist Church, the largest Wesleyan denomination in the US. The UMC says, from their official "Book of Discipline," "We share with many Christian communions a recognition of the authority of Scripture in matters of faith,..." which falls far short of inerrancy in matters of science and history as believed by Fundamentalists. See at http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1809 . So perhaps some individual Lutheran minsisters signed the Chicago Statement and two of three major US Lutheran bodies endorse fundamentalist inerrancy, but the ELCA with more members than the other two bodies combined, does not.Edison 17:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate what you are saying. The mainstream position has changed in the last few decades from one of a fundamentalist perspective of inerrent to one of a post-modern perspective of spiritual applicibillity (infallible on matter of faith not inerrant). You should definately create a section entitled "the mainstream churchs' response to inerrency" or something like that. 
Side note, Wesley was a staunch believer in the inerrency of scripture. 
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (consequently, all Scripture is infallibly true)" ("The Means of Grace," Sermon #16). 
"We know, 'All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,' and is therefore true and right concerning all things" ("On Charity," Sermon #91). 
"If he is a Christian, he betrays his own cause by averring that 'all Scripture is not given by inspiration of God, but the writers of it were sometimes left to themselves, and consequently made some mistakes.' Nay, if there be any mistakes in the Bible there may as well be a thousand. If there be one falsehood in that book, it did not come from the God of truth" (Journal, 24 July, 1776). 
Wesley wrote a letter to the Bishop of Gloucester in response to the Bishop's tract "On the Office and Operations of the Holy Spirit." In it the Bishop claimed that the Holy Spirit so directed the writers that "no considerable error should fall from them." Wesley objected to this language by writing, "Nay, will not the allowing there is any error in Scripture, shake the authority of the whole?" (Works, Jackson ed., 9:150). 
Peace in Christ. :) --DjSamwise 19:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Protestant Christian position: Which denominations?

message: The introduction was edited today and now reads:
:Biblical inerrancy is the personal belief and theological stance that in it's original form,
I think this is a more correct statement, but "original form" should now be defined.  This is the crux of much debate in and of itself given the lack of "original" documents.  Thoughts?  Storm Rider (talk) 18:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  you mean like "original manuscripts" or something? Dallas Theological seminary has this in thier statement of faith: "We believe that all “Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” by which we understand the whole Bible is inspired in the sense that holy men of God “were moved by the Holy Spirit” to write the very words of Scripture. We believe that this divine inspiration extends equally and fully to all parts of the writings—historical, poetical, doctrinal, and prophetical—as appeared in the original manuscripts.." 
Go ahead and change it if you like. :) --DjSamwise 19:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction edit