Talk:Israel/Archive 20

message: Why wasting our time about this .You can develope other pages so that everyone benefits.I think finally it is all "power" that decides about nations and their existance.Not logic or history or ... .Countries have been changed in size and shape throughout history,not by a group of people talking about it in the wikipedia!!!  But by those who had the power and permission to decide about their own nation.What is your idea about this? let me know.85.185.167.5 21:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Something missing in the whole idea about this ongoing talk

message: User "RBWhite" has vandalized this page by changing the Israeli flag to the Nazi one. I've changed it back. Since I'm new here- what's the procedure on banning this guy? —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages--Roy Frenkiel 11:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I changed it back.  Anyways, I've given him a warning on his talk page. The next time, it will be a stronger warning, and if he vandalizes again, someone reports him to WP:AIV, where administrators will block him. You might also want to read WP:VANDALISM. Good luck! · AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 11:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: I have failed this article as a GA per lack of references and in-line citations.  While there are many sections that do really well at this, there are still quite a lot of places where non-trivial information or statistics is stated without citations.  I would have guessed that some of these would have references on the  pages corresponding to the sections, but I have checked a couple (for example the Music section) and this is not entirely true.  Quite a lot of  statements sticking out as well.  I have not spotted any other problems.--Konstable 02:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed GA

message: Sorry if I am putting this in the wrong place...I don't really know how to use the website. Under the religion section, it says that most people are Jews, and that the second largest religious group is "Arabs." "Arabs" is not a religion, and there are Arab people who are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.
:You're right, that section mixes up ethnicity and religion. I'll try to think of a better way to saying that. okedem 16:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: About "jewish" and "arabs"

message: Acting President is not a title, it is a temporary function. Dalia Itzik did not attain a new title when Katzav took a leave of absence. Now it appears Dalia Itzik is out of the country, so the infobox says Majalli Wahabi is the acting president. Next, Wahabi will sneeze, and someone else will be acting president for a few seconds! Itzik's title is still the speaker of the knesset, and that should be her title in the infobox. Wahabi did not get a new title when Dalia Itzik boarded the airplane, he's still just a deputy speaker. I think the infobox should reflect positions, not temporary functions.--Doron 08:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. okedem 15:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Acting President" 

message: The article gives "the total area under Israeli control, including the military-controlled and Palestinian-governed territory of the West Bank" but not the population. I will put in the corresponding demographic info. Fourtildas 06:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geographic, demographic info should cover same regions 

message: The area figure in the infobox includes the Golan Heights, altough they are not recognized as part of Israel by the international community. Even from the Israeli point of view it is not clear they should be included, indeed Israel did not formally annex the Golan Heights. The Golan Law carefully avoided implications regarding annexation or sovereignty, and Begin's comments on the issue at the time indicate that this was intentional. Therefore including the Golan Heights as part of the area of Israel is controversial, to say the least.--Doron 09:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. okedem 15:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Area figure in infobox includes the Golan Heights 

message: Lately, there were a couple of attempts (like this one) to replace the newer map with an older and unintelligible one. I don't understand what is the deal here exactly, but if the newer one contains an error, it needs to be corrected. The old one is so much worse, it's a non-starter. ←Humus sapiens ну? 06:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too think that it must be corrected, because this newer map outlines Israel a lot better.  It's a minor error that could be corrected.  The situation is the same with the Iraq map and Syria map... >_> --Krytan 02:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: A map exactly as you describe is already in the article. The little map at the top is just meant to show Israel's location in the world. Schrodingers Mongoose 00:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the story with the map? 

message: I'm sure everybody knows the history of the Hebrew. The Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered and its people disappeared over time but the Southern Kingdom of Judah and its people were displaced but remained together til this day. So here's my question. Why is the present-day Jewish state called "Israel" when the people are clearly the descendants of Judah? Wouldn't calling the state Judah be more correct?--Secret Agent Man 18:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Two reasons (that I see right now) - first, it's in the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel). Second, note that the United Monarchy, (that existed before the split) was known as the Kingdom of Israel. okedem 21:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And Israel is not in reference to a portion of land. Israel is used as the name of the Jewish people. -Working for Him 02:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning Israel's "name" 

message: This is minor, but I think worthwhile.  That picture of "infected mushroom" is very bad and unnecessary.  How about removing it? The other picture is enough for the small section.  The Behnam 01:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music section - mushroom 

message: The section "The world's perception" was removed for the following reasons:
*No other country article has anything like it
*165 out of 192 UN member states did not participate in the survey (not to mention unrecognized states and territories)
*Muslim countries, and Muslims in Western countries, are a large influence
*There are other factors involved, and public opinion regarding the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict is largely complete, or possibly Israel's alliance with the United States, or many other separate or intertwined conflicts pertaining to Israel
*Public opinion is everchanging and fluctuates daily, just as wars, conflicts, and other matters will change pertaining to the subject
*The statistics somewhat conflict with similar stats, such as that of The Economist and others
*Having such a section is undoubtedly bound to edit wars, overfilling of information, competing sources, etc. It would not stop there.
--Shamir1 18:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the most important reason - it's just a silly survey, and means nothing. Wikipedia doesn't hold country popularity contests. okedem 19:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The world's perception" 

message: Population counts in large cities are totally wrong:
"As of 2006, The Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics defines three metropolitan areas: Tel Aviv (population 3,040,400), Haifa (population 996,000) and Beersheba (population 531,600)[6]. The capital, Jerusalem, has a population of 719,900. The Jerusalem Institute of Israel Studies defines the metropolitan area Jerusalem (population 2,300,000, including 700,000 Jews and 1,600,000 Arabs)[7]."
The right figures would be 
Jerusalim 720,000
Tel-aviv - 378,000
Haifa - 267,000
from http://www1.cbs.gov.il/webgis/website/yishuvim/yishuvim_2005/XLS/bycode.xls —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.139.145.105 (talk) 00:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read again, these figures refer to the metropolitan areas, not to the respective core cities.--Doron 06:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please correct population counts 

message: I think it is important to note that the Irgun and Lehi were both terrorist organizations as recognized by the British government. Failure to do so is quite hypocritical if we are to recognize groups such as the early PLO as terrorist organizations (which I do). I'm honestly not trying to be biased or hate-mongering -- if we look at what a terrorist organization is, the Irgun and Lehi fall under those terms. Bombing buildings, killing innocents, et al for political gain are certainly acts of political terrorism.
"Who Are the Terrorists?", Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 9, No. 1. (Autumn, 1979), pp. 154-160. 
Cigrainger 09:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Was Haganah an underground group - I thought it was an "aboveground" legitimate organization?  Doesn't neutrality and balance also require us to mention Arab underground groups? Someone please insert mention of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Fourtildas 03:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Haganah and other paramilitary groups are mentioned in the context of the British Mandate, and they eventually became the foundation of the Israeli army when it was established. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are not related to Israel and they were established decades later, so it's not clear how they are relevant.--Doron 15:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish Underground Groups 

message: Is it really appropriate to say that Israel is "considered to be the most advanced in ... overall human development" in the opening of the article? Is "overall human development" defined? I'd say that there are quite a few people around the world who might argue that the country's policies place it squarely last in the region. I think it's fair to say that Israeli law squarely rejects the idea of equality among men and universal human rights (a concept accepted by the UN and member nations since the signing of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights) - something I would say is a cornerstone of "overall human development".  I'd be interested to hear an intelligent debate on the wisdom of using this type of language or subjective reasoning in this article.
Welrifai 03:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is defined; see the links. Jayjg (talk) 03:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording of the article (inherent bias) 

message: "Starting around the eleventh century BCE, the first of a series of Jewish kingdoms and states established intermittent rule over the region that lasted more than a millennium.[16]"
When I check out link [16] it looks like a country calling itself Israel gets established about 1100 BCE, and then survives until about 600 BCE and then gets stomped on, and never reappears until 1948. So in what sense does a Jewish kingdom/state rule over the region for a millenium? I also looked at History of ancient Israel and Judah and it doesn't seem to mention anything.WolfKeeper 09:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. So Judaea isn't rule, and it's not a state because a state has ultimate rule (armies) which presumably Hasmoneans and the Herods had. So in what sense intermittent rule? It seems to me there was only one state from ~1100 BCE to ~~600BCE; just over 500 years, but the text claims 1000 years.WolfKeeper 19:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but it seems you really didn't bother reading the history of the region. According to the bible, first (~1050 BC) there was the United Monarchy, ruled by Saul, David and Solomon. Then (something like 930BC) it split to two kingdoms, the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah (their existence is confirmed with archaeological sources). Israel fell to the Assyrians in 722BC, and Judah fell to the Babylonians in 586 BC. Later on, in 140 BC, the Hasmoneanites revolted against the Greeks, and survived for 100 years before becoming a client kingdom of the Romans. Later, in 132 AD, the Bar Kokhba's revolt established an independent state, which lasted only two and a half years. These were all fully independent states. okedem 21:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "intermittent rule over the region that lasted more than a millenium" 

message: Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
Israel did not 'start fending for itself' and never has. It has always relied 100% on UN and US support.  The agreement was, just have our tanks, don't buy Soviet or Chinese. The money just never stopped rolling in for Israel.
Where is the US on this. I guess Israel managed to acquire billions and billions of dollars by magic. What a blatantly self-serving article. I'm not a Nazi pig or whatever but this belongs on some pro-israel nutter site, not on Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Irocktoomuch (talk • contribs) 16:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Beyond the initial 1947 partition plan, the UN never did anything for Israel. The US has given a lot of monetary support to Israel, but Israeli soldiers do the fighting and the dieing. To say that Israel "relied 100% on UN and US support" is baseless. Let's not forget that the US's support is also a nice subsidy for american industries. Also, look at the sums involved - Israel's national budget is something like 250 billion NIS, of that 40 billion for defense. The US gives only a small part of that, something like 2.4 billion dollars, or 10 billion NIS). (By the way, the US also gives 1.7 billion dollars to Egypt.) okedem 16:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, the U.S. didn't give any significant aid to Israel until 1967. Jayjg (talk) 21:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 100%? You can always tell a troll by the hyperbole.141.156.150.185 10:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Israel 

message: Israel is not an English-speaking country. No more than any other country in the world. Reluctantly I can live with "Russian-speaking", but not English-speaking.--Doron 01:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most European countries and many other countries have English taught in school. And 100,000 German-speakers is but a fraction of the population, come on!--Doron 01:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Rest assured, there are many times as many English speakers in Germany than there are in Israel, yet, you don't see Germany added to the category "English speaking countries". I don't see Japan listed as a "Korean speaking country" either, even though more than a million Koreans live in Japan. Jayjg (talk) 21:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, it's absurd. By that logic we'd have to add the US to 100 different categories... okedem 21:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  English-speaking country 

message: According to a current Washington Post article "The Israeli government is arguing in domestic courts that it no longer occupies the Gaza Strip" and "In February, Israel opened a $35 million terminal at the Erez crossing on the Gaza border, where travelers now receive Israeli exit and entry stamps in their passports."
So, unless someone thinks the WaPo could be in error, I will add the border with Gaza to the first paragraph. Fourtildas 02:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Gaza Strip is not a country, so it does not belong in the first paragraph. Furthermore, whether the Gaza Strip is occupied by Israel or not is a matter of dispute.--Doron 16:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not aware tha there were any legitimate claims that Gaza was still occupied (unlike the West Bank). But I could be wrong and I agree, it isn't a country so it shouldn't be included. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Border with Gaza 

message: I've made a small deletion to the "Human Rights" section, but given the contentious naure of this article wanted to provide a brief explanation.  The criticisms of AI and HRW are cited, and then there are two inter-wiki links to accussed anti-Israeli bias in these organizations, the first of which (to AI) goes to a section that no longer exists.  I feel this would be justified under certain circumstances, but cannot given the frequent citations to Freedom House in the paragraph that follows.  It is not that I seek to discredit Freedom House, but I did note that on the Freedom House page there is an allegation of neo-conservative bias (which is strongly pro-Israel).  I feel that the AI and HRW accusations against Israel in this section are balanced out by the favorable reviews Israel is given by Freedom House.  Thus, if accusations of bias are to be referenced, they should be referenced to all the organizations mentioned or none at all.  In other words, "AI and HRW have been accused of being anti-Israel" as well as "FH has been accussed of a neo-con bias."  Frankly, I think neither are necessary.  I think both sides are accurately represented and thus the assertions should speak for themselves.
On a side note, I am a student of foreign affairs but admitedly Israel and the Middle East are not one my areas of expertise.  But I would like to submit for you to consider, from a neutral outsider's perspective, that this article at points seems highly defensive of Israel.  I can understand the need to be so, given that this article and similar ones are probably a constant source of anti-Israeli vandalism.  Again, Israel and the Middle East are not my areas of expertise, but I'm educated enough to know about the contentious nature of the topic.  Not being an expert I don't intend to edit this article much, but I would like you to consider that POV in any instance can work against the author's intended effect.  I think you can trust intelligent readers to draw impartial and accurate conclusions.  
Best, SpiderMMB 21:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, SpiderMMB. The connection between Freedom House's alleged neoconservative bias to Israel is too indirect. If an allegation of bias existed, it would have to be direct. (And by the way, a recent Gallup poll found that American sympathy for Israel is strong within each political orientation, including liberal Democrats. Not that this matters.) --Shamir1 05:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accusation of anti-Israel bias in AI and HRW 

message: Please contribute to the discussion at Template talk:Israel-InfoBox regarding whether or not the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem should be considered part of Israel for the purpose of determining Israel's area.--Doron 10:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute at [[Template:Israel-InfoBox]] 

message: i suggest changing the section were the article states that Palestinians "fled" in the 1948 war of independence to a less biased expression "fled or were forced out of their homes", since this issue is disputed.--213.6.44.241 13:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, some were indeed forced to leave and some ranaway by their own. viclick """"" 12:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  fled or were forced out of their homes 

message: I think the history section is too detailed and long for this article - the detailed history should be at History of Israel, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries says that history should be "A brief outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs should do), including at least a paragraph on the current events going on there. Link to "History of X"."...was looking at this and it will be hard to do but I think we should do it. I didn't want to delete stuff from this article because there are gaps in the history of Israel article-for example, Herzl isn't mentionned at all. Flymeoutofhere 17:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History Section 

message: Israel really need better P.R . The ancient history of Israel is only briefly introduced even though it have a lot to do with the Israeli Jewish people at present, and more important -due the ancient Jewish history at Israel, the population overtaken major achievements , comparing with many other nations of that time, almost at any possible field : Science , Architecture ,Industry ,Military thought (i.e. Guerilla war against modern army which the Mccabees were between  the first to use ) , Religious , Establishment and etc .especially when the Jews had their own autonomy , before the Roman occupation ruined every thing. More, the Israeli Hi-Tech achievements , which are phenomenal at any scale , are only shortly mentioned and with no getting into details and nor do the military industries, which are of importance, are (a project like the "Lavi" can tell ones a lot about the country) .Sport achievements are mentioned while they are actually negligible and not impressive one's .Facts like that Israel is the second most advanced country relatively to its age, although the wars it had , and although lack of naturl resources and the very complex reality of life in Israel , under consistent threats and total corruption of the political establishment, is not mentioned nor do the fact that the Israeli GNP  is within the 30 world highest in spite of all the difficulties .There are many good examples for what should be include at that article -like that with a 1/20 of investment the engineering faculty of the "Technion" is ranking as the first in the world aside to M.I.T  faculty, and that all of Israel 6 universities (serving more than 100,000 students together) are at the world top 500. The impression that the average American/European and etc have , is that Israel is actually a place in which people 'driving' to work riding on a camel.--Gilisa 15:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we won't start deleting sections, and we won't turn this into a P.R. publication. okedem 16:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad Article 

message: I would like to link Israel to the ethnostate article.
Would people who have worked on the Israel article more than I have please do this. --Twoheel 16:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. "Ethnostate" is a neologism and a POV fork. It's gonna be deleted soon anyway. okedem 17:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnostate 

message: The information regarding Eichmann is not correct and should be fixed or removed. See Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem.
:Uh, what? El_C 06:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eichmann 

message: Insert formula here —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.118.8.214 (talk) 10:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 1968 AL Karamah War 

message: I was wondering why the writer of the article ignored a very important fact in Arab-Israeli history that is Al Karamah war in which the Jordanian Royal army succefully fought, stopped and fully destroyed the invading Israeli armies. I think that articles must not be biost as the one you proudly show, as it has many miconceptions and many missing facts that change the view of the reader and makes him get history in an unproper manner. If I may ask the people in charge of these articles (the publisher) to please fully check each article before it is published in order to save time, trouble, and to reveal  History as it's supposed to be shown.
Regards,
A Proud Jordanian Citizen —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.118.8.214 (talk) 10:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are talking about the 11 February, 1968 Israeli-Jordanian border clashes then I don't see where is the war here. I have never heard of an Arab-Israeli war taking place in 1968. Etams 13:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 1968 AL Karamah War 

message: With a quick glance over the article I noticed that you need to make sure to quickly add citations or remove the statements that have "citation needed" after them. This may cause the article to be quick-failed. Look over the GA criteria to make sure anything else needs to be fixed. Also, as a heads up, it looks like the coat of arms image is up for deletion, so the editors here may want to weigh in on its discussion. :Image:Idf logo4.jpg and :Image:Itzhak perlman.jpg also need fair use rationales. These are just some things I noticed that need to be fixed, so please do fix them so that the article is not immediately failed. Good work so far and good luck with GAC. --Nehrams2020 19:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK Thanks - think ive sorted out the citations? and i'll wait and see with the images.--Flymeoutofhere 16:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA comment

message: I believe this was vandalized, there are "pigs" in the infobox. --Scorpion prinz (Talk | contribs) 07:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes you're right, it was...I'll take the appropriate actions--Flymeoutofhere 10:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  vandalized 

message: I think the history section is too large for two reasons:
#If you look at FA Country articles, this section is much smaller 
#It is in too much depth for the average reader who will see the history of Israel article if they want this information
Please comment - I am happy to work on making it more concise.--Flymeoutofhere 17:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History Section