Talk:Chomsky hierarchy

message: ==Example third production==
Shouldn't the third production in the example grammar be changed as follows:
OLD:
: BA -> AB
NEW:
: AB -> AABB
I don't see where BA can ever be generated when starting with S. This change
seems like it would make it so that the grammar could indeed produce { anbn | n ∈ Integers & n >= 0 } as described. Right now it looks like it can only produces { ε, ab } (never being able to use several of the productions). -[67.30.5.76, 25 October 2003]
: It is correct.  BA can be generated using the first production twice. For exampleS -> ABS -> ABABS -> AABBS -> AABb -> AAbb -> Aabb -> aabb.  However, it would be nicer to give an example of a language that is not context-free. --Zero 12:25, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not an error to be able to reach a point where no productions apply.  The definition of the language generated by the grammar is the set of strings of all terminals that can be produced.  It doesn't matter what other strings can be produced. --Zero 02:43, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. --Chopchopwhitey 08:28, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Topics from 2003

message: Shouldn't the third production in the example grammar be changed as follows:
OLD:
: BA -> AB
NEW:
: AB -> AABB
I don't see where BA can ever be generated when starting with S. This change
seems like it would make it so that the grammar could indeed produce { anbn | n ∈ Integers & n >= 0 } as described. Right now it looks like it can only produces { ε, ab } (never being able to use several of the productions). -[67.30.5.76, 25 October 2003]
: It is correct.  BA can be generated using the first production twice. For exampleS -> ABS -> ABABS -> AABBS -> AABb -> AAbb -> Aabb -> aabb.  However, it would be nicer to give an example of a language that is not context-free. --Zero 12:25, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not an error to be able to reach a point where no productions apply.  The definition of the language generated by the grammar is the set of strings of all terminals that can be produced.  It doesn't matter what other strings can be produced. --Zero 02:43, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. --Chopchopwhitey 08:28, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Example third production

message: ==Splitting subset grammars==
The linked page pushdown automaton makes a distinction between the deterministic and non-deterministic varieties of PAs and the languages that can be generated by each. Would it be correct to say this causes a splitting of Type-2 grammars into:
Type-2a - recognizable by NPA
Type-2b - recognizable by DPA  ?
A sentence about this would be helpful.
marsh @{1} mysteray \.{1} com
: Not exactly. It would be more correct to say that you have Type-2 grammars (recognizable by NPAs) and Type-2.5 grammars (recognizable by DPAs) where the first describes a proper superset of the second, and the second describes a proper superset of the languages described by Type-3 grammars. -- Jan Hidders 22:52, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Then where should other formal languages be discussed, for example, indexed grammars/languages (Type 1.5) (Aho, 1968), mildly context-sensitive grammars/languages (1.75) (Joshi et al, 1975), and deterministic PDAs (2.5), among others.  They certainly deserve treatment somewhere in a hierarchy of formal languages, even if Chomsky didn't discuss them in his 1959 and 1963 papers.  --jonsafari 23:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Topics from 2004

message: The linked page pushdown automaton makes a distinction between the deterministic and non-deterministic varieties of PAs and the languages that can be generated by each. Would it be correct to say this causes a splitting of Type-2 grammars into:
Type-2a - recognizable by NPA
Type-2b - recognizable by DPA  ?
A sentence about this would be helpful.
marsh @{1} mysteray \.{1} com
: Not exactly. It would be more correct to say that you have Type-2 grammars (recognizable by NPAs) and Type-2.5 grammars (recognizable by DPAs) where the first describes a proper superset of the second, and the second describes a proper superset of the languages described by Type-3 grammars. -- Jan Hidders 22:52, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Then where should other formal languages be discussed, for example, indexed grammars/languages (Type 1.5) (Aho, 1968), mildly context-sensitive grammars/languages (1.75) (Joshi et al, 1975), and deterministic PDAs (2.5), among others.  They certainly deserve treatment somewhere in a hierarchy of formal languages, even if Chomsky didn't discuss them in his 1959 and 1963 papers.  --jonsafari 23:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Splitting subset grammars

message: == Finitely many productions. ==
I've added to the given definition of a grammar the stipulation that the set of productions must be finite. This
restriction needs to be placed either on all grammars, or on each of the classes used to define the Chomsky hierarchy
for the article to be correct. I've chosen the former since this is consistent with the definition in formal grammar.
Of course one can argue that there's nothing in principle wrong with the idea of an "infinite grammar" and that this idea
is useful in certain contexts, but I think that debate is better had in the context of that article! Best wishes, Cambyses 10:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Topics from 2005

message: I've added to the given definition of a grammar the stipulation that the set of productions must be finite. This
restriction needs to be placed either on all grammars, or on each of the classes used to define the Chomsky hierarchy
for the article to be correct. I've chosen the former since this is consistent with the definition in formal grammar.
Of course one can argue that there's nothing in principle wrong with the idea of an "infinite grammar" and that this idea
is useful in certain contexts, but I think that debate is better had in the context of that article! Best wishes, Cambyses 10:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finitely many productions. 

message: Does anyone else find the title of this page ironic? Chomsky hierarchy--I know it isn't a hierarchy over people, but still, it is kinda funny. -[63.205.15.166, 11 September 2005]
* What is funny about a categorization scheme for grammars of different languages?  Perhaps you are referring to Chomsky's advocation of anarchosyndicalism which is inherently opposite a hierarchy.  —optikos 02:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ironic name

message: ==Schützenberger==
The article says nothing about Marcel Schützenberger.  I added a line, but it seems there should be more info (some references?) on this.  Mhym 19:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand why he is included in the title. I've read quite a lot of linguistics and computer science and never have I once heard the hierarchy called the Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy. In fact, I've never even heard of Schützenberger at all. If you look at the reference it's from a manual for "Nooj Computational Devices". Not exactly a strong reference for computer science theory or linguistics. In every book I can think of Hopcraft and Ullman, Lewis and Papadimitrous, any of Pinker's books on languages, even books by people who hate Chomsky like Terrance Deacon (Symbolic Species) or Georg Lakoff (Women Fire and Dangerous Things) it is always just called the Chomsky language hierarchy. Unless someone can provide a better reference I'm going to remove Schützenberger's name from the Intro. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:17, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It does seem to be a very unusual naming (at least, searching Chomsky Schutzenburger only turned up Chomsky–Schützenberger representation theorem, for the first dozen-ish pages), but I did find what seems like a reliable reference. So it seems to be the case that someone, on the planet, calls it the Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy. It could still be a case of WP:CITOGENESIS but there is that 1963 paper so Schützenberger did have some involvement. IDK, maybe in the future there will be a detailed Chomsky bio so we can properly apportion credit. But the name "Chomsky hierarchy" seems set in stone at this point and I think the early 2006-ish references to Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy should all be changed back to Chomsky hierarchy. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 02:59, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed this a long time ago and removed Schützenberger's name. I saw someone changed it back a while ago and I've been to busy to get into an edit war so I just left it. I'm glad someone else took the time to change it back and since there is now a clear consensus, let's keep it that way. I've read quite a bit of linguistics both for cognitive and computer science and in the many things I've read about the Chomsky hierarchy, I've never seen Schützenberger's name. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 13:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

text: There are so many ways it matters. To start in the 1950's people thought FSMs could parse natural language. Chomsky proved this was impossible. For another, when you design a compiler you need to study this to understand why you can use one technique to implement the Lexical Analyzer (the thing that detects individual letters and punctuation) and a more complex technique to build the parser (because the lexical analyzer can be parsed by an FSA but the parser for a programming language requires a Push Down Automata. I agree it would be good to add this stuff. I just don't have time to do it justice right now because it requires some serious work. I hope someone else can do it, if not I'll make a note to come back when I have more time. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

text: I also agree. See my comment up above. I also think we should remove "Chomsky-Schützenberger hierarchy" from the intro. I've never heard it called that and I've read a lot of computer science theory and linguistics (I site some sources in my previous comment up above). And the one reference for "Chomsky-Schützenberger hierarchy" is a computer manual for "Nooj Computational Devices". Not a book on CS theory or linguistics. Unless someone provides a better reference I'm removing Schützenberger from the intro. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:24, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

text: I wholeheartedly agree with this analysis and this corrective action. —optikos 02:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: If you need an explanation of a term that is linked to another Wikipedia article, then click on that link and read about the concept at the other article.  This matter is fully addressed in containment hierarchy. —optikos 02:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: It just means that each level below is included in the level above. I actually think "subsumption hierarchy" is a better term although they mean more or less the same thing, people usually use subsumption hierarchy when talking about sets and subsets which is what the Chomsky hierarchy is and containment hierarchies when talking about things like a Bill of Materials in manufacturing.
==Not too technical==
Unless someone can explicitly itemize how this article is too technical or does not properly link to prerequisite background material needed to understand this widely-taught computer science concept, then the { { technical } } demerit needs to be removed, because this article is now very accessible and provides numerous links to prerequisite background material.  This article is babified as much as it can possibly be and still discuss anything remotely related to the Chomsky hierarchy of grammars and the computability/expressivity implications.  (And this article does a very bad job in the computability/expressivity department just to keep it babified for the masses.) Quite honestly we computer scientists do not take kindly to complaints such as "ooOOOOooo, it makes my head hurt" regarding our subject matter.  I have heard ever since diagramming sentences in 6th grade how much people hate structured grammar in every one of its forms of presentation.  It is time for the topic to get some respect! —optikos 02:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Amen. I hate "drive by tagging". I know tags have their place but far too many editors just slap a tag on something without giving a good rational. This is a very complex topic and you can't do it justice without getting technical. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:27, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Topics from 2006

message: The article says nothing about Marcel Schützenberger.  I added a line, but it seems there should be more info (some references?) on this.  Mhym 19:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand why he is included in the title. I've read quite a lot of linguistics and computer science and never have I once heard the hierarchy called the Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy. In fact, I've never even heard of Schützenberger at all. If you look at the reference it's from a manual for "Nooj Computational Devices". Not exactly a strong reference for computer science theory or linguistics. In every book I can think of Hopcraft and Ullman, Lewis and Papadimitrous, any of Pinker's books on languages, even books by people who hate Chomsky like Terrance Deacon (Symbolic Species) or Georg Lakoff (Women Fire and Dangerous Things) it is always just called the Chomsky language hierarchy. Unless someone can provide a better reference I'm going to remove Schützenberger's name from the Intro. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:17, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It does seem to be a very unusual naming (at least, searching Chomsky Schutzenburger only turned up Chomsky–Schützenberger representation theorem, for the first dozen-ish pages), but I did find what seems like a reliable reference. So it seems to be the case that someone, on the planet, calls it the Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy. It could still be a case of WP:CITOGENESIS but there is that 1963 paper so Schützenberger did have some involvement. IDK, maybe in the future there will be a detailed Chomsky bio so we can properly apportion credit. But the name "Chomsky hierarchy" seems set in stone at this point and I think the early 2006-ish references to Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy should all be changed back to Chomsky hierarchy. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 02:59, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed this a long time ago and removed Schützenberger's name. I saw someone changed it back a while ago and I've been to busy to get into an edit war so I just left it. I'm glad someone else took the time to change it back and since there is now a clear consensus, let's keep it that way. I've read quite a bit of linguistics both for cognitive and computer science and in the many things I've read about the Chomsky hierarchy, I've never seen Schützenberger's name. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 13:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Schützenberger

message: I came across this somewhat accidentally, and it left me wondering: why does this matter? Not that I doubt that it does, of course. It's just that the article doesn't say much about why this division of grammars is interesting or important. If someone knows, it would be great if they could add it. William Pietri 06:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are so many ways it matters. To start in the 1950's people thought FSMs could parse natural language. Chomsky proved this was impossible. For another, when you design a compiler you need to study this to understand why you can use one technique to implement the Lexical Analyzer (the thing that detects individual letters and punctuation) and a more complex technique to build the parser (because the lexical analyzer can be parsed by an FSA but the parser for a programming language requires a Push Down Automata. I agree it would be good to add this stuff. I just don't have time to do it justice right now because it requires some serious work. I hope someone else can do it, if not I'll make a note to come back when I have more time. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does this matter? 

message: Back in March, an editor moved this page from Chomsky hierarchy to Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy.
The name "Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy" has very little currency, as Google search will immediately verify.  Hits for "Chomsky hierarchy" outnumber "Chomsky-Schützenberger hierarchy" by 68,000 to 15.
Regardless of the justness or aptness for the name "Chomsky hierarchy", that is what the subject of the article is called, and that is what the article should be named.
There are many similar cases; for example the Zorn's lemma article is under "Zorn's lemma", not "Kuratowski's lemma" or "Kuratowski-Zorn lemma" or "Zorn-Kuratowski lemma", because, in English, the lemma in question is universally known as "Zorn's lemma", despite the fact that Zorn enunciated a different (albiet related) maximal principle, and that Zorn's work was indisputably anticipated by Kuratowski.  
Accordingly, I am moving this article back to Chomsky hierarchy.  If Schützenberger made significant contributions to it, the article should say so in detail.  But it should not be titled "Chomsky-Schützenberger hierarchy" when hardly anyone calls it that.
-- Dominus 13:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree. See my comment up above. I also think we should remove "Chomsky-Schützenberger hierarchy" from the intro. I've never heard it called that and I've read a lot of computer science theory and linguistics (I site some sources in my previous comment up above). And the one reference for "Chomsky-Schützenberger hierarchy" is a computer manual for "Nooj Computational Devices". Not a book on CS theory or linguistics. Unless someone provides a better reference I'm removing Schützenberger from the intro. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:24, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

text: I wholeheartedly agree with this analysis and this corrective action. —optikos 02:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page name change 

message: Unless someone can explicitly itemize how this article is too technical or does not properly link to prerequisite background material needed to understand this widely-taught computer science concept, then the { { technical } } demerit needs to be removed, because this article is now very accessible and provides numerous links to prerequisite background material.  This article is babified as much as it can possibly be and still discuss anything remotely related to the Chomsky hierarchy of grammars and the computability/expressivity implications.  (And this article does a very bad job in the computability/expressivity department just to keep it babified for the masses.) Quite honestly we computer scientists do not take kindly to complaints such as "ooOOOOooo, it makes my head hurt" regarding our subject matter.  I have heard ever since diagramming sentences in 6th grade how much people hate structured grammar in every one of its forms of presentation.  It is time for the topic to get some respect! —optikos 02:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen. I hate "drive by tagging". I know tags have their place but far too many editors just slap a tag on something without giving a good rational. This is a very complex topic and you can't do it justice without getting technical. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:27, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Not too technical

message: ==Retrofitting topic subheaders==
14-Oct-2007: I have inserted 12 subheaders above, retrofitting subheader titles to reflect the subject of each discussion, and adding "-[<date>]" when missing.  To emphasize the span of prior years, I have noted "Topics from 2001" or "Topics from 2003" etc.  I moved 3 paragraphs according to the year the topic was started.  There's not enough to archive the talk, and of course, some people added sub-comments in later years, as dated. -Wikid77 21:02, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It symbolizes a production rule. It means that in a word from the formal language, the symbols on the left can be substituted by the symbols on the right, to create a new "expanded" word. This is explained in the linked article Formal_grammar#Introductory_example. Diego (talk) 10:22, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Topics from 2007

message: 14-Oct-2007: I have inserted 12 subheaders above, retrofitting subheader titles to reflect the subject of each discussion, and adding "-[<date>]" when missing.  To emphasize the span of prior years, I have noted "Topics from 2001" or "Topics from 2003" etc.  I moved 3 paragraphs according to the year the topic was started.  There's not enough to archive the talk, and of course, some people added sub-comments in later years, as dated. -Wikid77 21:02, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Retrofitting topic subheaders

message: 24-Oct-2007: I am removing the "" tag from this talk page: it is a waste of time to try rewriting grammar production rules for a "general audience".  Encyclopedias, historically, have been separated from science encyclopedias, but Wikipedia does not bias knowledge to prevent linking "physics" to an article about "hummingbirds" and their wings.  Also, that tag is an access barrier which prompts computer scientists to feel they cannot use technical terms in WP articles.  The technical-tag probably applies to well over 20,000 articles, and the appropriate solution is not to rewrite articles, but to "also-see" link back to general intro articles, not spend hours rewriting computability theory or quantum mechanics for "the masses".  I'm afraid the technical-tag is just another vanity-tag that does more for those who use it, then actually helping readers or editors improve articles. The technical-tag, along with many other vanity-tags, should really be eliminated totally from Wikipedia, except as a historical reminder of failed concepts.  Anyway, I am commenting out the "" tag here (and please also remove it from other talk-pages). -Wikid77 21:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing technical-tag

message: The set inclusion context-free\subseteq context-sensitive shown in the figure doesn't follow from the definition, for there is nothing to prevent productions of the type S-->aS, S-->\epsilon which according to the given definitions is a context-free grammar but not a context-sensitive grammar!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.199.200.196 (talk) 15:55, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Set Inclusions 

message: What does the arrow pointing to the right symbolize? 169.139.19.207 (talk) 00:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It symbolizes a production rule. It means that in a word from the formal language, the symbols on the left can be substituted by the symbols on the right, to create a new "expanded" word. This is explained in the linked article Formal_grammar#Introductory_example. Diego (talk) 10:22, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arrow 

message: ==Some thoughts on regular vs. type-3 grammars==
I've written down some thoughts on the distinction between regular and type-3 grammars at http://dp.grhack.net/#type_3_vs_regular_grammars. I think there are some problems with the examples presented in this wiki page. Can someone verify?
==Nonterminal==
The article says: "a finite set of nonterminal symbols (that do not appear in the left-hand side of any production rule)". I think this is not correct.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by LCamel (talk • contribs) 04:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a computational linguist, so you might want to take this with a grain of salt, but as far as I'm aware this is still somewhat of an open question. Most languages are approximately context-free, but some have context-sensitive constructs. Others have argued that the nesting-depth of language constructs is limited in practice, making natural languages regular. You could also try the reference desk. —Ruud 18:06, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

text: English is none of these. It (like almost every language spoken by humans) is a Natural Language, while the Hierarchy deals with classification of Formal Languages. The articles on those two do a decent job of explaining the difference.  66.31.201.182 (talk) 16:24, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

text: Chomsky considers all natural languages to be built on the structure of a formal language. So for Chomsky there is no difference between formal langauges and natural languages - except that people speaking formal languages sometimes violate the underltying formal structure by producing performance errors. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:29, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Chomsky considers all natural languages to be built on the structure of a formal language" That is a common misconception but it is simply wrong. In fact Chomsky criticizes many philosophers such as Quine for assuming that natural languages are similar to formal languages. He is adamant that this is not the case. For example, in the forward to New Horizons in the Study of Language, Neil Smith writes: "A number of consequences follow from [Chomsky's] naturalistic thesis: there is no justification for the common assumption that natural languages ought to be treated like the invented formal languages of logic or mathematics;"    It is also reflected in the hierarchy. Formal languages such as virtually all computer languages and languages like FOL can be implemented via push down automata because their syntax is context free. In Python the syntax of a statement such as x = x + 1 is context free. There are no equivalents in formal languages to sentences such as "I saw the man on the hill with the telescope" It is also wrong to say "English is none of them". English and all natural languages are the most complex level of the hierarchy: recursively enumerable sets which can only be parsed and generated by Turing machines. That is a core part of Chomsky's theory, that recursion is what separates human language from the languages of other organisms and is what gives human language (and thought) the power for discrete infinity. BTW, an interesting hypothesis (first stated by Randy Gallistal) is that recursion is also what gives humans our number faculty. In a book on how children learn and use language, he demonstrates how the capabilities that seem to be innate in very young children seem to essentially Peano arithmetic which is the formal foundation for all of modern mathematics. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 14:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Topics from 2012

message: The article says: "a finite set of nonterminal symbols (that do not appear in the left-hand side of any production rule)". I think this is not correct.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by LCamel (talk • contribs) 04:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Nonterminal

message: Does this have any relation to, you know, real languages? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:54, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not a computational linguist, so you might want to take this with a grain of salt, but as far as I'm aware this is still somewhat of an open question. Most languages are approximately context-free, but some have context-sensitive constructs. Others have argued that the nesting-depth of language constructs is limited in practice, making natural languages regular. You could also try the reference desk. —Ruud 18:06, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

text: English is none of these. It (like almost every language spoken by humans) is a Natural Language, while the Hierarchy deals with classification of Formal Languages. The articles on those two do a decent job of explaining the difference.  66.31.201.182 (talk) 16:24, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

text: Chomsky considers all natural languages to be built on the structure of a formal language. So for Chomsky there is no difference between formal langauges and natural languages - except that people speaking formal languages sometimes violate the underltying formal structure by producing performance errors. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:29, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Chomsky considers all natural languages to be built on the structure of a formal language" That is a common misconception but it is simply wrong. In fact Chomsky criticizes many philosophers such as Quine for assuming that natural languages are similar to formal languages. He is adamant that this is not the case. For example, in the forward to New Horizons in the Study of Language, Neil Smith writes: "A number of consequences follow from [Chomsky's] naturalistic thesis: there is no justification for the common assumption that natural languages ought to be treated like the invented formal languages of logic or mathematics;"    It is also reflected in the hierarchy. Formal languages such as virtually all computer languages and languages like FOL can be implemented via push down automata because their syntax is context free. In Python the syntax of a statement such as x = x + 1 is context free. There are no equivalents in formal languages to sentences such as "I saw the man on the hill with the telescope" It is also wrong to say "English is none of them". English and all natural languages are the most complex level of the hierarchy: recursively enumerable sets which can only be parsed and generated by Turing machines. That is a core part of Chomsky's theory, that recursion is what separates human language from the languages of other organisms and is what gives human language (and thought) the power for discrete infinity. BTW, an interesting hypothesis (first stated by Randy Gallistal) is that recursion is also what gives humans our number faculty. In a book on how children learn and use language, he demonstrates how the capabilities that seem to be innate in very young children seem to essentially Peano arithmetic which is the formal foundation for all of modern mathematics. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 14:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  So, which one is English? 

message: == Contradiction May Exists... ==
The following text occurring in the article appears to be a contradiction:
"Note that the set of grammars corresponding to recursive languages is not a member of this hierarchy.
Every regular language is context-free, every context-free language, not containing the empty string, is context-sensitive and every context-sensitive language is recursive and every recursive language is recursively enumerable. These are all proper inclusions, meaning that there exist recursively enumerable languages which are not context-sensitive, context-sensitive languages which are not context-free and context-free languages which are not regular."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.245.3.15 (talk) 04:09, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? Could you point it out more explicitly? --Zahnradzacken (talk) 10:20, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

text: First, I apologize, I shouldn't be responding because this isn't the place for such discussions but I'm going to anyway: I just looked briefly at the first reference but I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is a completely different topic. Chomsky's hypothesis is that all human languages share certain commonalities, at its core is his hypothesis that recursion is the essence of human language and apart from bird song (where it doesn't seem to play the same role in communication as it does in human language) recursion is unique to human languages.  Note: this doesn't imply (as many seem to think it does) that he says humans are "better" than other animals. What I think those books are about are the social issues related to various languages. That is a different topic. Chomsky has talked a bit about some of the political and sociological issues related to language (e.g., that various assertions about some form of a language being "correct" are completely artificial and that is why they are often so hard to enforce) but for the most part, at least as a scientist and linguist, that isn't what he focuses on. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 20:00, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Further topics

message: The following text occurring in the article appears to be a contradiction:
"Note that the set of grammars corresponding to recursive languages is not a member of this hierarchy.
Every regular language is context-free, every context-free language, not containing the empty string, is context-sensitive and every context-sensitive language is recursive and every recursive language is recursively enumerable. These are all proper inclusions, meaning that there exist recursively enumerable languages which are not context-sensitive, context-sensitive languages which are not context-free and context-free languages which are not regular."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.245.3.15 (talk) 04:09, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? Could you point it out more explicitly? --Zahnradzacken (talk) 10:20, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction May Exists... 

message: This article claims (and cites) that the hierarchy referred to here as 'the Chomsky Hierarchy' was outlined in Chomsky (1956), 'Three Models for the Description of Language'. Although Chomsky does discuss finite automata in that paper (where they are just one of the three models in a different hierarchy) he makes no attempt to classify them, and indeed, seems to be writing only about so-called Type 2 (push-down) automata, without ever stating as much. The hierarchy he actually discusses in that paper is the hierarchy of 1.) finite state automata; 2.)Phrase Structure Grammars; and 3.) Transformational Grammars.
The 'correct' reference for the hierarchy of automata that is outlined in this article is Chomsky (1959) 'On Certain Formal Properties of Grammar'. However, I am highly dubious that Chomsky deserves credit for _this_ hierarchy: he doesn't cite anyone, thereby creating the impression that perhaps he invented automata theory, but of course he did not. Automata had been much discussed long before 1959. The basic ideas go back at least to the 1930s, with work of Gödel, Church, Turing, Stephen Kleene and Emil Post. Shannon discusses Type 3 (finite state, no stack) automata and their relation to language in his (1949) 'A Mathematical Theory of Communication'. 
Chomsky and Miller published a 1959 paper called 'Finite state languages', which I have not yet read but which may shed more light on this matter.
I am not sufficiently educated to know who first distinguished between automata with [Type 2] and without [Type 3] a stack (the main distinction that relevant in Chomsky's work and the only automata distinction discussed in his 1956 paper) but it was almost certainly not Chomsky.
CWestbury (talk) 17:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chomsky (1956) does not contain the specified hierarchy 

message: Does the contentions given in this theory have anything to do with the definition: Feudal languages? 
See this books by one particular author: 
1. March of the evil empires; English versus the feudal languages
2. The SHROUDED SATANISM in FEUDAL LANGUAGES!
3. Codes of reality! What is language? 
Or is it a completely different subject matter?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.86.231 (talk) 19:50, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: First, I apologize, I shouldn't be responding because this isn't the place for such discussions but I'm going to anyway: I just looked briefly at the first reference but I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is a completely different topic. Chomsky's hypothesis is that all human languages share certain commonalities, at its core is his hypothesis that recursion is the essence of human language and apart from bird song (where it doesn't seem to play the same role in communication as it does in human language) recursion is unique to human languages.  Note: this doesn't imply (as many seem to think it does) that he says humans are "better" than other animals. What I think those books are about are the social issues related to various languages. That is a different topic. Chomsky has talked a bit about some of the political and sociological issues related to language (e.g., that various assertions about some form of a language being "correct" are completely artificial and that is why they are often so hard to enforce) but for the most part, at least as a scientist and linguist, that isn't what he focuses on. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 20:00, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feudal languages?  

message: In the intro it says the hierarchy is sometimes referred to as the Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy. Is there a reference for this? I’ve never heard it referred to that way. If there is no reference I’m removing that statement.--MadScientistX11 (talk) 03:36, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chomsky–Schützenberger hierarchy 

message: I want to add some links but this isn't really my field. Would this be right?
* computation models
* automata
— W.andrea (talk) 19:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding links to § History