Talk:Gibraltar/Archive 1

message: What authority is there for the authenticity of the currently quoted motto "Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti"? I haven't seen this anywhere else. Admittedly, the inscription beneath the arms of Gibraltar -- "Montis Insignia Calpe" (Badge of the Rock of Gibraltar) -- is more of a label than a slogan... -- Picapica 08:33, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motto 

message: The newly added picture implies that usually there are amounts of british flags in Gibraltar's buildings, and although there might be some during normal times of the year, it can be clearly seen that this photo's flags are in commemoration of the tercentary, fact that is not stated in the picture's text.
I would either strongly NPOV the photo's text or remove the picture itself.
What does everybody else think?
xDCDx 10:25, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that the caption rather than the actual picture is the problem. With it suitably reworded, I think the picture would be fine. (And note I have been arguing that the article has a pro-Gibraltar-is-British-and-look-at-those-evil-Spainards POV). Pcb21| Pete 10:29, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  New picture - NPOV? 

message: This section seems long in comparison to the rest of the article. It's interesting in the context of the territorial dispute of Gibraltar, but it seems strange to devote so much space to a side issue (bearing in mind that Spain claims all of Gib, not just the territorial seas). I propose deleting, or moving to a new page dealing with Spain's claims to Gibraltar. What do others think? Jongarrettuk 07:29, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Territorial waters 

message: I've edited out The Spanish Government, as part of its campaign to reclaim the Rock repeatedly plants. This is a very seious allegation; some sources are needed here 
Ejrrjs 23:58, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stories planted by Spain Government

message: The one and only official language of Gibraltar is English. Gibraltarians, when speaking amongst themselves, often speak in Spanish (the local dialect is called Llanito, which has been influenced by English, but is intelligible to all Spanish speakers. To refer to Spanish as a vernacular language first sounds silly, second, it is unclear as to what it really means, and third is tautologous since Llanito is already referred to in the article. Jongarrettuk 06:25, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: I've decided to be bold and delete the territorial waters section - it seems out of place here and is rather an arcane subject. It's also, imho, too long in comparison to the rest of the article. If someone wants to start a page on Spain's claim on Gibraltar, it can go back in there. Please don't revert without making comment on here as to why you disagree with me. 
I have also deleted two paragraphs in economy, which seemed more to be discussing arguments between Spain and UK rather than Gibraltar itself.
By the way, these changes have meant I've had to move the piccis and delete the last one of the 1939 map so that the article still looks ok. Jongarrettuk 06:33, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I created Gibraltar controversy with the text you removed, and added a wikilink to it in Gibraltar and another in Politics of Gibraltar, I also replaced the text-stamped and low resolution image of the article by the, in my opinion neater, 1939 map. If somebody has high resolution text-free images of Gibraltar, feel free to add them. --xDCDx 15:02, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've carried out quite a significant rewrite - I'm sure people will tell me what they think and improve upon it further (In particular I'd like to find some up to date economic statistics to add.) I'm also moving quite a bit to the [[Gibraltar controversy page, which will need some significant tidying up. 20:56, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Territorial waters and economy 

message: |1| True density
Data from the article (and the CIA factbook)
Area = 6.5 km²
Population Total (2003 E) = 27,776
Density = 4270/km²
Anyway, let's do the math: 27,776/6.5 = 4273,2307692307692307692307692308
Why do you think it is approximately 4,800?
Ejrrjs 20:44, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I got this from the Guinness World Records website  (see Modern Society, then People and Places). This disagrees with the size given on , which is a Gibraltar government website. Guinness are obviously excluding Macao and Hong Kong and all sovereign states. jguk 22:10, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, why should wikipedia exclude Macao and Hong Kong? Their status as  Special Administrative Regions of China are more or less similar to G. status within the UK (i.e. some degree of self-governance but not full sovereignty). What other non-sovereign territories are you thinkging of as having less density than G.? Ejrrjs 22:18, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population density 

message: If the motto is "Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti", why does the picture have "Montis insignia Calpe" ("Sign of Calpe mounts"?)? Is it the Spanish coat for Calpe?--Erri4a 17:53, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Motto

message: I altered the reference to spain disputing the sovereignty as, although it may be neutral is inaccurate. Spain fully accepts British sovereignty over Gibraltar, and has said so repeatedly. However they do request that sovereignty be returned to them, or alternatively in the case of decolonisation they should be given the right of annexation. 
The version I pasted is both neutral and accurate.
Also it is not true that anyone was expelled from Gibraltar in 1704. The terms of surrender were quite clear in that thos who wished to stay were welcome to do so. Rather than support Archduke Charles in his attempt on the throne some decided to leave, but many others remained.
A Gibraltarian
:You know this is true but it is quite clear that your intention is to get rid of anything you dislike, treating this page as your personal fiefdom. 
:For your information:
::On 17 of July of 1704, the Anglo-Dutch Navy began the siege of Gibraltar. They demanded the unconditional surrender and a forced oath of loyalty to Carlos III. The Gibraltarian city council replied on 1st August, refusing the ultimatum. During the nights of 3rd and 4th of August, heavy shelling took place, targeting  the castle and the town itself. Next day the Spaniards surrendered the town to the Prince of Hesse. The Gibraltarians were made to choose between being expelled or remaining in the Gibraltar on condition of recognizing the Hapsburg as their new king. At the same time, the invading armies started a campaign of looting and plundering, together with desecration of local Catholic chapels. Of the 1,200 registered families, only 22 were allowed to stay. Among the things the native population took with them were a statue of the Holy Crowned Virgin Mary, and the historical documents signed by Catholic Monarchs in 1502 for with Gibraltar's coat of arms was granted. The expelled ones took refuge in the chapel of San Roque. Asterion 20:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Gibraltarian. The problem I talked about above concerns only the edits about requests often the return Vs disputes. Obviously, the request version is POV if compared  with the disputed version. I am not into pirates stuff and obviously I am not reverting the page for that reason. Cheers -- Svest 10:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Gibraltarian, I have some problems understanding your English, but will not be correcting it. Maybe you should stick to Spanish then. Every single one of the words I used is true. Maybe you should just cross the border and check out the original historical documents in San Roque Town Hall Museum. At the end of the day, you are just a few miles away, much closer than me certainly. Love thy neighbour. Asterion 23:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no objection to your amended text but considering Gibraltarian's previous behaviour, I still think he would delete anything about the subject as soon as we turn around. Best regards, Asterion 19:31, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

text: What about "Only 22 did stay"? Your thoughts? Also, I do not think this is strictly correct ("...nearby town of San Roque, which those that left took refuge in...") as the town did not actually exist before that date Asterion 20:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, sorry about that. I automatically assumed there had to be some settlement, as your version states that they took refuge in the chapel of San Roque. By the way, have you got any references to substantiate the omitted text? SoLando (Talk) 21:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will try to find something in English. However I am satisfied with the omisions. Once I get the chance I will start working on the article called Exodus of Gibraltar, where the full details (with references, of course) would be better placed. Off to bed now! Asterion 21:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  No dispute 

message: As I understand Disputed status of Gibraltar, Spain claims the isthmus "neutral zone" on which the airport is built.
Also the territorial waters are disputed.
--Error 00:48, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Spanish claims

message: For a number of years, the tourist office have used gibraltar.gi as the official homepage, however recently this has fallen into decline and has been replaced by a new site developed by the UK representative office:
The site is divided into three chapters, dealing respectively with holidays, business and finance, and politics and international relations. Although the main website address will remain unchanged, www.gibraltar.gov.uk, a new address will take visitors straight into the tourism and holiday pages of the site. This new address is www.visitgibraltar.gi.
“The new web address for the tourism-related pages of the site falls in line with that used by many other tourist destinations,” said the Hon Joe Holliday. “Our research showed that prospective tourists were less likely to log on to a website with a “.gov” address if they were seeking holiday information. I therefore decided to introduce a second access for the web-surfers who were looking for specific holiday information.”
The website has been designed by London-based graphic design company Miura, which is headed by Gibraltarian designer Javier Garcia.
I see that someone else has other ideas about what that site is,
and keeps reverting it.  AFAIK its the current official homepage
and covers a lot more than tourism--212.120.227.226 01:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official Gibraltar Homepage 

message: I have a general question to ask... To join the EU, I am pretty sure that it is obligatory not to have any territorial claims on any EU country. Spain joined in 1986. Does this affect Spain's claim on Gibraltar?--Burgas00 12:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It will be somewhere on http://europa.eu/ - but the answer to the question is that Thatcher caved in, jguk 10:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It looks like the Accession Treaty can be emailed to you free of charge from this site. I'm giving it a go myself, I'm interested to see if it works, jguk 10:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the link, I spent hours on their site looking for it last year.--Gibnews 23:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The UK joined at the same time as the Republic of Ireland, which had a claim on Northern Ireland enshirned in its constitution. So the issue would have been ignored. Astrotrain 15:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I see they have renounced that claim.--Gibnews 09:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outdated Spanish claim 

message: I question the relevance of this section for the main Gibraltar page. While it was a significant historical event in the territory, it is already mentioned in the history section; and most of the section (ITV licences, court cases) have nothing really to do with Gibraltar. I took the section out when I restructured and expanded the article at the weekend, however User:Gibnews reverted, stating he believed it was relevant (see User_talk:Gibnews). Any other opinions would be useful. Astrotrain 16:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Death on the Rock

message: What does Gibraltar export to Turkmenistan (over $40 million according to CIA)- seems strange? Astrotrain 18:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or it could have been a UK export to Turkmenistan where the payment was made to a Gibraltar bank account. NFH 21:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkmenistan

message: This is a good article on Gibraltar although slightly biased towards the UK position. Faltan temas como el corruption y mangoneo que dicen los españoles que hay en Gibraltar. Even if its not true it should be mentioned. And that it is a paraiso fiscal. How many businesses are registered in Gibraltar?--Ismael76 12:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Colony of Spain?  what are you smoking ?--Gibnews 22:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New edits

message: Before anyone puts the tax section back, we need it to be NPOV and fully sourced. I do not believe that many banks knock back transfers from Gibraltar given it is a major European financial centre. Astrotrain 11:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tax section

message: Btw, I was reading about the Gib dialect yanito and I was curious over the arabic, genoese and maltese influences on the dialect. Could you give me any examples of these?--Farouk yalla 11:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yanito/llanito

message: I dont understand the position of Gibnews. Ok he is from Gibraltar and feels strongly about his home town. I am from Spain and we dont agree on certain issues related to Gibraltar. But why is he allowed to revert everyone's edits to this page. 
HINT: The page is about GIBRALTAR not Spain and its about fact not your opinion--Gibnews 13:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gibnews

message: This entity seems to have an agenda of blackening the good name of Gibraltar as an International Finance Centre.
The link he repeats refers to a story on the OECD website which actually reports that Gibraltar has complied with requests from that organsation in relation to alleged harmful tax practices. It has no application to things today, where the OECD are quite content with Gibraltar.
What would be useful is a well written and authorative article on taxation and I will source one from a professional in the field. However tax is an arcane subject which belongs in the article on the economy and not in this section or on the main Gibraltar page.
Those who agree with me can assist by removing the vandalism by mainly Spanish users, who for all I know may be sockpuppets of the same individual with an anti-Gibraltar agenda.
Where is ECEMAML when ya needs him !--Gibnews 00:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism by Farouk yalla 

message: : On holidays, as you know ;-) I've just returned and seen the mess of this discusion page. I'm unpacking my luggage (and sorting my 2 Gbytes of Argentina photos) so I haven't been able to read all the stuff, but at a glance, it seems that there are some concerns about taxation in Gibraltar, as long as some discusion on the status of Gibraltar. Some suggestions:
*: With regard to the taxation, it would be needed to include a description on the Gibraltar tax legislation.
*: With regard to the naming... well, Gibnews, you know that not only me, but thousand of sites in the world (and even legislative organs) consider Gibraltar as a tax haven (as the very article on the topic here does). And that's because the definition of tax haven (see, for example here) simply applies to Gibraltar.
*: Gibraltar appeared in the OECD list of territories with unharmful tax practices. Gibraltar commited to OECD's requests and was removed from the list (in fact, nowadays there are only three territories in such a list). But that's all. There are no direct relationship between being a tax haven and taking part in money laundering. As far as I can understand, Gibraltar is a tax haven (see for example what the Washington state thinks about it: Gibraltar is a tax haven because "Tax haven country" means a country that has no corporate income tax or an effective tax rate less than ten percent on income that does not arise in or is not derived from that country. Tax haven countries include, but are not limited to, Barbados, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Commonwealth of the Bahamas, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Isle of Man, the Principality of Liechtenstein, the Principality of Monaco, and the Republic of the Seychelles) but has committed to effective control practices.
: My conclusion: information about the Gibraltar tax legislation is needed. Considering that Gibraltar is a tax haven is for me beyond any doubt but, at the same time, its government has committed to implement any necessary measure on transparency and control to prevent Gibraltar from being a money laundering center. Gibraltas was listed as an uncooperative tax haven but was subsequenly removed from it. There are plenty of reports on the quality of the finantial center (some of them are listed in the Spanish version of the article, here).
: I'm quite busy on resuming my business, but I'll try to contribute to this discusion as frequently as I can. --Ecemaml 16:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the description on the Gibraltar taxation regime for off-shore companies should be included either in the subarticle Economy of Gibraltar or in a new article named Taxation of Gibraltar (including information about exempt and qualifying companies). But anyway, Gibnews misses the main point. "Tax haven" is not a legal term (or not only a legal term). Again, I quote a definition: "A country offering very favorable tax laws for foreign businesses and individuals" (from the first hit in google for tax haven, in . According to it, and also according to the article in wikipedia (see tax haven), Gibraltar is a tax haven. And that information should be included in the main article regarding Gibraltar (along with some figures; nowadays, according to , there are approximately 28,500 active companies registered of which 8,800 are exempt companies). Also that, according to all major world institutions (OECD and so on) Gibraltar meets the higher standandars on control and regulation. Both are facts (Gibraltar being a territory with very favorable tax laws for foreign businesses and individuals; and Gibraltar being a finantial center with proper regultation, control and transparency). Trying to hide that information (regardless of how inaccurate and biased the text provided by Farouk is -and certainly it is-) is not fair and goes against the very principes of wikipedia. --Ecemaml 16:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: And? It only proves that they lacks such an information. In the cases of Spain and Great Britain, it's quite obvious, tax information is not possibly relevant, since they are similar to those of any other western country. Tenerife has no own tax regulation (it's only an island and follows Spain's regulations with some exemptions regulated by the EU, since Canary Islands are an EU Outermost Territory). 
Ceuta and Melilla has especial regulations with regard to some specific taxes. Finally, Monaco would definitely need a proper information about corporate taxation since it's also a "classic" tax haven. --Ecemaml 10:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Fortunately, wikipedia does not follow such a principle. Otherwise we'd got only one (or zero) articles. Wikipedia includes encyclopedic information. Is corporate tax information encyclopedic? Yes, definitely. Especially in those territories and countries where only being a tax haven makes them survive. --Ecemaml 10:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: You know, here we don't follow the authority argument. There are not definite articles. The article from your experienced accountant will be welcome, but it will follow the same process of every single article (remember that silly motto somewhere: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it). Especially if we consider that it will provide appreciations that comes from a directly involved party.--Ecemaml 10:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The fact of the text being copyrighted or not is irrelevant (as long as it hasn't been added to the article).
'No, its copyright and you have included it here, I suggest you delete it and replace it with a link.--Gibnews 23:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The term 'tax haven' is commonly used world wide (and also in wikipedia) today. Therefore, you'll have to make an effort to convince not only me, but to the whole community, about such obsolescence. BTW, you can try a simple google search such as this and read articles such as Economy of Luxembourg where you can find sentences like this one: "The country is a tax haven and so attracts capital fleeing from other countries so they can reduce the costs" or Bermuda with "Bermuda, as an offshore tax haven, has a highly developed economy focused on international business and tourism" (it's a pity that you didn't find them in your previous random sample). --Ecemaml 10:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Gibraltar a Tax Haven? 

message: An Anonymous editor asserts, "Link to Gibraltar Government and Politics (Link here)This page has been lifted from tourism website!" Does not give the link to the site. Just blanked Politics section, left the above in its place, and did not mention anything in talk page. Thanks. Mikereichold 11:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  anon 

message: It is a popular myth that in the 2002 referendum the Gibraltarians voted to 'remain a UK dependency' That was not the question posed in 2002, which can be seen here in both cases it was a clear rejection of any involvement of Spain in the political affairs of the territory.--Gibnews 09:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referendum 

message: Gibnews looks like you are the only one here who wants to hide the information/dispute about tax haven status. Maybe as spaniards we lack of NPV, but certainly you do. Then, at least, both POV should be documented and showed. Censoring other people opinion who clearly outnumber you is not too kind and violates Wikipedia politics. --Panchurret 11:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gibnews seems to be just the new name of the now banned Gibraltarian. On December 6th Ecemaml launched a Request for Arbitration on Gibraltarian  which subsequently ended with his banning. One day after the Request, on December 7th user Gibnews was created --Panchurret 21:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They are definitely not the same person. Regards, Asterion 01:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the support - I see you don't sleep either :)
--Gibnews 10:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gibnews