Talk:Alberto Fujimori/Archive 3

message: For AAAAA:
:Today, Toledo’s government argues that the country is dependent on foreign investment in extractive sectors to raise the country out of poverty, which affects nearly half the country’s 27 million people. Half of the country’s exports are from the mining sector, and government officials say mining export revenues are needed to help pay off the country’s 30 billion foreign debt, a debt that eats up about a quarter of the government budget each year. But multinationals and foreign investors can and are freely transferring most of the profits abroad as well as given excessive tax breaks. According to one Peruvian economist, the government collects only about $300 million a year in taxes from mining companies, a relatively small portion of the nation’s $7 billion in tax revenue collected annually, especially when considering the emphasis the government places on the sector. Local communities receive little of the taxes that are collected. In 2001, U.S.-based Newmont Mining Corporation paid $50 million in taxes for its gold mine near Cajamarca, one of the most profitable in the world. Meanwhile, there is no limit on the amount of natural resources extracted, environmental woes mount with the nation’s lax enforcement of environmental laws, and there is little investment of monies in other, more sustainable industries. 
:If the information is true, then the fault should also fall under the Toledo and Paniagua Administration, since they don't bother to modify those numbers. Here the problem is not the laws, but who allow them to continue. Messhermit 15:36, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For a Bio Article, this debate it's too long. Why another article can be created that can deal with this? or at least expand the Economy of Peru article. Economic figures are important, but a much detailed and accurate debate can be stated on an article that could deal with this. Messhermit 15:36, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background information on tax revenue from mining 

message: In response to User:Viajero's edit summary, you did not include the "South American nation" in your 20:05, 11 Apr 2005 edit (and I, on my part, did not read the discussion page). In any event, you should have included the "South American nation" right on the 20:05, 11 Apr 2005 edit, instead of removing the whole sentence and only replacing it with whatever he was credited with. 
Greetings, --Dynamax 23:33, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  First person of Asian descent to become head of state of a South American nation 

message: I believe that the insertion of "which many believe is wildly exaggerated" is pushing a POV and should be removed.  "Many" is here used as a weasel word; if there are people who believe this is exaggerated, identify them and cite to their statements.  Kelly Martin 22:38, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Kelly Martin. Indeed there is somo POV in the last modifications. Messhermit 02:25, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UDoN't!wAn*'s edits 

message: Because the APRA and FREDEMO parties controlled both chambers (the Chamber of Deputies and Senate) of Congress, thereby hampering his ability to legislate...
Fujimori's job as the president of the country was to legislate?  President's don't leigislate, they dictate.  If Fujimori ruled by his dictate, he was a dictator.  Of course the Peruvian constitution didn't allow that. 
However, two weeks after the auto-coup, the Bush administration changed their position and officially recognised Fujimori as the legitimate leader of Peru.
Two weeks after the auto-coup, Bush was in power?  Check your US history.  Bush took power in 2001, much more than two weeks after the auto-coup.
Descendall 11:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Re Bush -- April 1992, George H.W. Bush; Daddy Bush. Re legislation: perhaps reword as "his ability to get the legislation he wanted onto the statute books", or similar. –Hajor 13:02, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Hajor in this one. Messhermit 17:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm an idiot.  Sorry, wasn't thinking. -- Descendall 01:27, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sloppy info on the autogolpe 

message: There was some suggestion that it [Fujimori's resignation] might not be accepted, but eventually was.
I was under the impression that the resignation was rejected, and the Congress then voted to declare Fujimori morally unfit to lead the nation.  Am I wrong? -- Descendall 11:27, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resignation 

message: I just went to this article from the NPOV site. I'm actually quite impressed by its current state. There's still some possibly contentious stuff in the legacy and the first presidency section, but it definitely does not have any blatant stuff anymore. So how would people feel about removing the NPOV tag? If I don't hear anything to the contrary, I'll remove it in a weak, i.e. August 14th. Great work! bastel 05:28, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Revisit NPOV

message: Is it really relevant to keep arguing about Fujimori's term?. He had made so many things that any other president in Peru haven't done, at least he did more for national universities then that guy Toledo, he's a shame as a statesman.HappyApple 05:07, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further discussion does it really worth? 

message: This edit radically revises downward the claims of popularity for Sí Cumple in opinion polls. Since neither version gives a citation, I am just noting the discrepancy. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poll numbers: discrepancy 

message: He never did anything for Peru, he just stole anything he could and ran away.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.201.163.236 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 7 November 2005.
Can you source that? SqueakBox 22:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously those comentaries were BIASED, please cite your sources and stop accusing people without arguments.HappyApple 04:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

text: well, in south america there is a different type of racism, here it is quite common to calle a black man "negro" (wich means black), instead of calling him afro-american, like it is used in the U.S.. Mainly this is because there has never been mayor racial issues in here (no KKK, for example), if an indian wants to marry a white girl, no one really says anything (as many of us are really mongrels, such as myself, even though i look very white). There are several racists in both of these countries, usually they are right-wing people with a very narrow view on things, and usually they have very little voice and saying in both of the goverments. Yet comments such as the tittle, have no place in wikipedia, as someone else already sayd. As for Fujimori, i hope he gets trialed for his crimes against peru, for his corruption cases (wich are countless, from the bribing of all tv station owners, thus controling all of the media to all of the corruption from his goverment), for the death squads he assembled, and particulary for how he left Peru in a deep third world country status. To end this, i must say that Fujimori did not ran away, he was at japan (conviniently) and there the arrest warrant was imposed on him, so he didnt really faced the music. Now he has come back to use both the chile-peru pre-war situation (there wont really be any war, none of the 2 goverments wants it, but the media is selling a lot more now that that the tensions have grew, mainly no one can really understand the current situation, so people like to say that Peru is stealing our sea... when in fact what peru has done is just to settle his international waters law, i dont really see why there should be a war there...) and he is here to use the low popularity of Toledo in his favor. In a way, Toledo has a low popularity mainly for how Fujimori left the country after he left. Fujimori would had not returned unless he would actually had something to win, and in this case, Fujimori might return to office.
Quite frankly, this "TE AGARRARON %#^#^&^" should have been removed since it was posted in the first place. The idiot that posted it had the clear intention of using profanity in the most personal way, which doesn't fit in this talk page. Moreover, we don't need to state what everyone already knows about Fujimori and all the information this article has. I suggest this "Te agarron" discussion be duly removed. --Dynamax 02:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should preserve what is here as a record. It is quite clear that a lot of editors don't think badly of Fujimori, and this conversation does thus seem to have value for the article. I have changed the title to "Discussion" and left the alleged accusations of the Florida based anon. If an admin were reading this I think removing this anon's 12.46 November 2nd edit from the history would be a much more useful way to ensure that rascism is not a part of Wikipedia. See Talk:Simon Wiesenthal#Article about vandalism of this article in The Age (Australia) for as similar case of a vandalistic rascist insert that did get wider press coverage and was removed from the record, SqueakBox 03:56, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Ironic to say that the IP anon that write that lenghty essay is actually getting out of the topic by stating things like the current diplomatic situation between Peru and Chile. Wikipedia must not become a heaven for racism. Messhermit 18:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: What would the U.S. have done if a guerilla terrorist movement had successfully captured Congress? Fujimori showed "cajones". If Peru decides to punish Fujimori now, they will deserve it when terrorists take over their government. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.24.93.219 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 10 November 2005. 
: He showed dresser drawers? Perhaps you mean cojones? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  That word on spanish is an equivalent to swearing, please avoid using it in this forum.HappyApple 21:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I guess we'll never know what would happen if guerrillas captured the US Congress.  For that matter, we'll never know what would happen if guerrillas capture the Peruvian one, either. Descendall 05:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Legacy of Anti-Terrorism

message: I have made some minor changes to this part of the article.  Introducing the Fujimori's lawyer (Cesar Nakasaki) and some other points, that actually are only seen here in Peru.
mramirez500 19:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Fujimori in Chile

message: Why do I often see "Fujimori" doubled? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TML1988 (talk • contribs) 23 December 2005.
:Both his father and mother have the same last name. In Peru, it is mandatory to state both last names in any official document. Messhermit 05:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Fujimori Fujimori" 

message: If the man is Peruvian, born and raised, then why are we writing his name in Japanese script as well? Does anybody else also think it would be better to only have the name in Latin alphabet and remove the Japanese characters?--Sonjaaa 04:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Totally unnaceptable, he is a foreign born japanese, despite he has born and raised as peruvian his japanese name follows conventions on japanese alphabet, and i dont see any problem to remove it from the article, to do so, it will decrease the quality of the article. HappyApple 04:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not to mention that he has now lived a significant portion of his life in Japan (and is probably wishing right now that he had stayed a bit longer). -- Jmabel | Talk 08:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jmabel, your last comment was not asked. I believe that personal opinions only add more controversy to the topic itself. Messhermit 15:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I am aware, Wikipedia does not have a ban on humor on talk pages, nor does NPOV apply to signed comments on talk pages. I have been very careful to keep my personal opinion of Fujimori out of the article, as you can easily see by examining the edit history. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It is highly uncalled for to suggest the Fujimori wishes that he was still in Japan.  Who wouldn't enjoy a vacation in beautiful Santiago de Chile.  From what I hear, his hotel is free, too. --Descendall 15:12, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know about the history of this article, and I agree that so far you have avoided to gave any personal opinion, but your last comment (at least the way that I look at it) didn't seem to be just a plain joke. Just to let you now that this is still a controvertial topic. Maybe if we avoid these things for now, everything would be ok, don't you think? Messhermit 19:53, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not being rascist, what kind of arguments are you using for state that?, should i take your words as some kind of warning or threat?. I have just said Fujimori is a Foreign-born Japanese and as he raised and born in Peru this doesn't mean he forgot his ancestry, hence his name follows the conventions of japanese alphabet.HappyApple 20:56, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name in Japanese?

message: Under the external links, the article states that "The Fall of Fujimori is a rather NPOV documentary based on a recent interview of the former President, along with extensive footage from his time in office, and other interviews."  I'll be the first to admit that I haven't seen this film.  I have talked to a few people who have, and they described it as an apology for Fujimori.  I remember reading something in the paper, I think the New York Times, that basically said the same thing.  I have seen State of Fear, which concentrates on the human rights abuses by both Fujimori and Sendero, and at the screening the producer and director were there.  They both said that they thought The Fall of Fujimori was quite biased in favor of Fujimori, and they seemed to think that the two films were essentially competing versions of what happened in Peru from 1990 - 2000.  Bottom line:  I'm not so sure that The Fall of Fujimori is "NPOV," and I'm not so sure that calling in NPOV is NPOV. --Descendall 15:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My problem isn't that it is linked, my problem is that it is called "rather NPOV."  First, I think that this amounts to an endorsement of a movie that is, from what I've heard, very biased.  Second, I think that the phrase "rather NPOV" isn't very encycolpediac. --Descendall 20:19, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and so have removed the 2 offending words which were indeed opinion, SqueakBox 00:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ''The Fall of Fujimori''

message: In the passage on Toledo's zeal against Fujimori: "His vehemence in this matter had crossed the border of the Peruvian law: forcing the judiciary and legislative system to keep guilty sentences without hearing Fujimori's defense (see "Political Peruvian Constitution" 1993); not providing Fujimori with a lawyer in absence of representation…" I have no idea what '(see "Political Peruvian Constitution" 1993)' might mean. Both passages lack context and effective citation. The item that follows, on removing pro-Fujimori MPs without proof of the charges against them is decently cited.
The main reason I want citations is that this passage is painfully unclear, and I have no chance of clarifying it without a source. - Jmabel | Talk 07:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations needed 

message: At a rally with Marth Chavez, Satomi Kataoka announced that she would marry Fujimori before the elections.  This probably deserves to be in the article, but I'm not sure where. --Descendall 12:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not yet, let's wait to see what Alberto Fujimori has to say; after all he is the other person involve. Messhermit 02:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Engagement 

message: This article begins with: "Alberto Ken'ya Fujimori (アルベルト・ケンヤ・フジモリ Aruberuto Ken'ya Fujimori, born in Japan on July 28, 1938)..." and then goes on to state: "Alberto Fujimori was born in Lima to Naoichi Fujimori and Mutsue Fujimoria..." 
Which is correct and can someone in the know edit this article correctly? - thanks. --JoëlAbend--
Was Sr. Fujimori born in Japan or Lima? The first paragraph suggests Japan, the second section suggests Peru 82.24.119.28 00:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is apparently a matter of some controversy. See http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9114534?tocId=9114534. Official records show him born in Lima, but Britannica reports that political opponents have questioned that, and hence his eligibility for the Presidency. However, given that they report that his family emigrated in 1934, they are clearly at least skeptical of those opponents' claim. I believe our article should say Lima, but mention that there is controversy. I'll edit accordingly. - Jmabel | Talk 18:51, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Where was he born?

message: Will people please discuss the matter that led to protection? It's not going to get resolved by pretending there is no disagreement to be discussed. - Jmabel | Talk 05:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The users involved in the disputes leading to protection have decided to undergo informal mediation through WP:MEDCABAL. I will confer to see if it would be ok to hold the mediation session here.--Amerique 07:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: Citation for parents' 1934 arrival: María Elena Castillo, "En busca de un mejor porvenir: El viaje de Naoichi y Mutsue en el Boyuko Maru", La República, 20 June 2001. Accessed online on the site of the Asociación Pro Derechos Humanos (APRODEH) 13 June 2006. 
Since this is from the site of APRODEH (generally no friend of Fujimori), but bears out that he was indeed Peruvian-born, I would hope this would be an uncontroversial addition. - Jmabel | Talk 05:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoping for a consensus edit 

message: Mediators: Addhoc, Amerique. Involved Parties: Messhermit, Bdean1963, El Rojo, AAAAA, Phil Boswell, Viajero
Would any other interested parties add their name to the list. Thanks, Addhoc 11:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The mediation is going to take place at Talk:Alberto Fujimori/Mediation. Thanks, Addhoc 15:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-09-12_Alberto_Fujimori|MedCab case]] 

message: Under his probation, Messhermit is banned from editing this article.  Since the protection was instituted as a result of that edit warring, I have unprotected it. --Tony Sidaway 20:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oka, then I will expose my case here in order to balance the neutrality of the article. If someone find my "complains" or "contributions" neutral enough as to be stated in the article, I urge him/her to include them in the article. Messhermit 03:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That's fine.  I commend your cooperative attitude. --Tony Sidaway 03:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Bdean, you contradict the article by asking sources for Fujimori's place & date of birth when that issue is already clarify by "Reference #1". If you are smart enough, you will remove the "Verification Needed" tag from that paragraph. Messhermit 14:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Verification Needed" tag now appears to be removed (which is fine, just noting status). - Jmabel | Talk 20:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotected

message: Three times in the past week or so I have tried to fix a problem with two external citations being separated from the text to which they pertain. (The two are in the same paragraph as the above-mentioned issue but have nothing to do with it.) The last two times I have done the edit separately to enable other editors to see what I am doing. 
Twice AAAAA has reverted this in the course or restoring the phone wait text. Rather then fix this problem a fourth time, I would like AAAAA to either fix it himself or explain to me why he objects to it. Thanks. Viajero | Talk 10:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  citation 'drift' 

message: Why is it that when we talk about Fujimori's crimes, we have to note that they are only "alleged," but there is no problem in saying that Toledo "crossed the border of the Peruvian law?"  This seems to me to be anti-Toledo bais.  --Descendall 18:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criminality