Talk:Anti-Mormonism

message: I have no problem working by consensus, but for starters this line under Sherlock Holmes, IMHO, needs to be removed or sourced:
"Still, given the enormous success of the Sherlock Holmes series, the anti-Mormon prejudices gained a distribution which they could never have gotten otherwise."
Any objections before I " be bold"?Die4Dixie 03:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just add the "Citation needed"  tag and see if you or someone can find one.  Bytebear 05:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Issue

message: I see we've had some controversy over Image:Manti-1999.jpg, an image intended to be in an article on a "pro-Mormon" article, but then was placed in here and removed from it's intended article with the people in it labeled as protesters. I think this is a WP:NPOV violation because the usage of this image portrays the people in it in an incorrect fashion, the rationale for representing them like this can be considered personal opinion, and thus no matter what he says, the image should not be used in this article because it introduces a biased view on the subject. ViperSnake151 15:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is what the person who submitted the picture claims, but I question whether that is correct.  To begin with, the picture is back with the original article.  Although the article is pro-Mormon, you will notice that the caption on the picture is about Evangelical Christians witnessing before the performance.  So, while the article was pro-Mormon, the intent of the people in the picture wasn't.  As to whether they were Anti-Mormon would require more information (IMHO), although there are some (but not me) who think that anything that isn't pro-Mormon is Anti-Mormon. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  (Talk) 09:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored the picture, using the caption from the Mormon Miracle article, which does not use the term "Anti-Mormon".  The section mentions protesters who do not consider themselves Anti-Mormon, so the picture and caption seem to fit. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  (Talk) 09:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image:Manti-1999.jpg=POV violation 

message: I edited the intro today after reading the Anti-Catholicism article. It seemed to be a much clearer defintion and explanation of the topic. This is particularly a propos given some of the polls that have been taken of late where US citizens would not even vote for a LDS, which amounts to blatant discrimination. 
We should be reviewing other articles that are well written and imitating them; there is not need to reinvent the will when others have already done so much work and been accepted by the commiunity at large. --Storm Rider (talk) 00:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Looking at other similar articles

message: I deleted the following section, moving it here for discussion:
:===Government influence===
::Alexander Burns, an undergraduate at Harvard College, posits that the overtly anti-Mormon approach of the government of Colonel Patrick Edward Connor, who arrived in Utah in 1862 to protect the overland mail routes during the Civil War, had a positive influence on the development of Utah. As a "powerful counterweight to Brigham Young and his church," Connor "[broke] down the territory’s fierce isolation from modern American society ... discovered precious metals and thus brought the mining industry to Utah ... helped lay railroads through the territory ... [and] connected it more closely with the rest of the United States." The minority Liberal Party, founded partly in response to Brigham Young's opposition to industrial mining in Utah, soon became the main voice of opposition to Mormonism in the territory.
::Some have credited past government pressure towards Mormonism as being responsible for the overturning of doctrines that were politically out of sync (e.g., polygamy and priesthood racial discrimination).
:=== References [gov sect]===
This is not anti-Mormonism, but should probably go in the article on Utah statehood. Am I missing something?
Also, I think a government influence section is probably appropriate given the acticities of the Missouri and the Federal Governement in the Mormon War, etc. Thoughts? --Storm Rider (talk) 09:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Governement section

message: I was reviewing the article today, checking the references, and comparing them to Wikipedia policies. First let's review what policies state:
*  "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"
*  "exceptional claims require high-quality reliable sources"
*  "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions." 
*  "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable."
*  "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources"
Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds the information and any information that does not meet the standards for verifiable, reliable sources may be removed or even should be removed if the information may damage living people or organizations.
As I reviewed the references to to support some strong positions I felt the following references violated the above policies: 11 - 18, 24, 35, 42, 43, 52-55, 59, 60, 68-72, and 75.  Reference 41 is broken and does not work. I would like to hear the input of other editors about these references and how they meet the policies of Wikipedia. The objective is the have references that are supported by third party, peer reviewed sources; none of these come close to that standard. They are most self-published, personal opinion, or have no peer-reviewed process or academic process associated with their activities.
Also, there are several citations for Introvigne, some with page numbers, but I did not see the name of the actual book they were quoting from. These specific references should be corrected so that readers can follow-up with more in-depth reading of the sources cited. Thoughts? --Storm Rider (talk) 02:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The full Introvigne reference may be found in the "References" section. --CaliforniaKid (talk) 07:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I believe that YouTube falls into the blog, forum, etc. category.  There is no way to determine the true source of the entry, and no way to prevent the entry from being changed into something totally different.  As a result, the clip can't be verified. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  (Talk) 02:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, youtube vidoes can not be changed once submitted, and there are plenty of verifiable sources in that video. --
slu2com   (Talk) 11:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The video is produced, or at least links back to behindthezioncurtain.com which is not a reliable source. Bytebear (talk) 03:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources and Guidelines 

message: There is a question of censorship that leads me to believe that there are references and sources that are being removed.
Particularly a link that I have placed 8 times and I have not received any reason as to why it continually gets removed.
YouTube video citing the meaning and the history of Anti-Mormonismhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j8K2uc95BM
Have I ignored a guideline, missed a step.  Why does this video continuously get removed?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slu2com (talk • contribs) 00:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that YouTube falls into the blog, forum, etc. category.  There is no way to determine the true source of the entry, and no way to prevent the entry from being changed into something totally different.  As a result, the clip can't be verified. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  (Talk) 02:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, youtube vidoes can not be changed once submitted, and there are plenty of verifiable sources in that video. --
slu2com   (Talk) 11:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The video is produced, or at least links back to behindthezioncurtain.com which is not a reliable source. Bytebear (talk) 03:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply by Slu2Com 

message: Trusttruth, we had an edit conflict when you deleted the second paragraph to the introduction. My final edit would have resulted in the following paragraph:
:For those who are accused of anti-Mormonism the term is controversial because its use is overly broad by some Mormons and may include simple criticism of Mormonism, much of which may be disagreement over interpretation of scripture and doctrinal disagreement. Bill McKeever, an Evangelical antagonist of Mormonism, has has expressed his opinion that use of "anti-Mormon" is similar to "the Mormon N-Word" because he thinks the term readily evokes negative stereotypes along with feelings of fear, defensiveness, disdain, or disregard by Mormons.http://www.mrm.org/topics/miscellaneous/anti-mormon-the-mormon-n-word 
There is a misuse of the term Anti-Mormonism. It is covered in the article and belongs in the introduction. There is a vast difference between anti-Mormonism and criticism of Mormonism....although you cannot tell it by the current article Criticism of Mormonism, which is a screed of everything anti-Mormon and is anything but an article on criticism. I think the paragraph should be brought back, thoughts?--StormRider 23:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction and deletion of second paragraph 

message: Should some of this be mentioned? (Yes I know the Mormons deserved it, blah blah. That out of the way..,) Apparently a Book of Mormon was burned in one case and people threatened.--T. Anthony (talk) 09:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me?  More vandalism and scare tactics occurred than you think.  Someone tried to set fire to my church across the street from my university.  The Anti-Prop 8 folks definitely deserve some attention in this article.  --63.226.104.225 (talk) 18:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Are there reliable sources for this information? tedder (talk) 19:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Protests against Proposition 8 supporters#Vandalism and scare tactics|anti-Prop 8 Vandalism and scare tactics]] 

message: There have been problems and disputes at Violence against Mormons, and the current consensus seems to be to merge that article into this one. You can view the discussion at Talk:Violence against Mormons#Merger proposal. Delia Peabody (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are no objections, I will be making this merge shortly. Delia Peabody (talk) 15:07, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: I found this article interesting, and I think a section on the early silent films would be interesting. Images from Early Anti-Mormon Silent Films 68.5.43.21 (talk) 05:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Portrayals of Mormons in popular media is the best article for that material. Also, as a FYI, we already have a full article on the film A Victim of the Mormons. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 16:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Anti-Mormon Silent Films 

message: I think that this edit is a mistake. Unless there is a source that says that only Mormons use the term "Anti-Mormonism," or that "LDSaints often use the term in a broader sense than non-Mormons would use it" as it says in the edit summary, we shouldn't be making such a pronouncement, because it makes it appear that Anti-Mormonism is some sort of tactic or hoax perpetrated by Mormons. Delia Peabody (talk) 22:21, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute about the lead 

message: "In 1857 President Buchanan concluded that the Mormons in the territory were rebelling against the United States. In response, President Buchanan sent one-third of the USA's standing army to Utah in 1857 in what is known as the Utah War. In 2007, the movie September Dawn portrayed Brigham Young and other Mormon leaders ordering the massacre of non-Mormon travelers passing through Utah, fearing they were the first in a wave of settlers to the territory. Though the LDS Church issued no comment on the film, Latter-day Saint members and several historical scholars protested these depictions, arguing that the film makers took "great leaps of historical revisionism."(citation needed) Approximately 120 immigrants from Arkansas were murdered at Mountain Meadows in Southwestern Utah on 11 September 1857, after having surrendered to a body of Nauvoo Legion militiamen."
#The Utah War is not real; there are no references to it other than those written by Mormon authors. Author and prominent LDS member Mr. Richard Turley, managing director of LDS Church History department has created a new version of events at Mountain Meadow by making up the Utah War story to explain the Massacre at Mountain Meadow. 
#"Fearing they were first in a wave of settlers to the territory" ... is incorrect. Emmigrants had been passing through Mountain Meadow for at least 10 years prior to the massacre. They were NOT settling in Utah. No one, other than Mormons, "settled" in Utah. This wagon train was on their way to southern CA to settle. This was both Captains John Baker and Alexander Fanchers 3rd trip. Author Will Bagley in his book, "Blood of the Prophets," states the this wagon train was one of many murdered and robbed by Mormons. See Gunnison, Aiken, Honea, and John T. Baker wagon trains. Shannon Novak concurs in her book, "House of Mourning." 
#" . . .after having surrendered to a body of Nauvoo Legion militiamen." Again, this is propaganda published only by Mormons. These were civilians that the wagon train surrendered to. It is not possible to find any references to Utah War and Mormon Militiamen written by any non-Mormon scholar, author, historian or archeologist.
#Please note Buchanan sent the troops to Utah in the summer of 1857. The Baker-Fancher left AR in April. They were murdered in September AFTER the army was sent, and before anyone knew they were coming. But the most important fact is that Buchanan did not send troops to quell the Mormons - it was nothing more than an escort group . . . escorting the new governor to Utah.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ldean50 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure I completely understand. . . Are you saying that the "Utah Mormon War" never happened? What specific changes would you make to the paragraph? Also, the paragraph you quoted is under the "History" section, not the "Violence" section. I do agree the paragraph needs revising, and I also don't think the film "reference" should stay. It's definitely not a reliable source. -- Adjwilley (talk)   19:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Under the heading of "Violence" incorrect statements 

message: Ed Decker is clearly and specifically not of the New Age movement. In The God Makers II, he actually goes so far as to call them occultists in league with Mormonism. However, this otherwise well written paragraph is information that is relative to the subject and should remain in the article. I would remove or rename the entire New Age section if I knew anything about the other person mentioned -which it's worth mentioning in what is written there, also has nothing to do with the New Age.
76.115.46.74 (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The term New Age in this case is not the same as the New Age movement. Instead it is a label given by scholars of this topic (see description given in Anti-Mormonism#Forms). Given it is a term used in academic taxonomy for this subject, it is appropriate to use. There may be ways to be more clear in disambiguating the term, I just don't see any right now. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 17:28, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Age misidentification 

message: Should there be a redirect for "Persecution of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or something similar, since "Mormon" is a nickname? -- ZeniffMartineau (talk) 01:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: You can make a redirect for anything you want, it's just like creating an article.  Maybe you're talking about renaming the page?  Probably no, per WP:COMMONNAME.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 01:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the tip~ I made a redirect ZeniffMartineau (talk) 08:36, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect for page name 

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message: The word "Anti-Mormonism" can be pejorative.  I added the tag because in the particular section, it is used pejoratively.  There is a difference between a "critic", "non-believer", and an "anti-mormon".  The section in question does not recognize that subtlety. Epachamo (talk) 16:49, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Tag

message: The Reaction section has this quote by James White: "If you will identify yourself as an anti-Baptist, I'll let you call me an anti-Mormon." This is problematic for a few reasons:
# As far as I could see in the source, there's no attempt by the LDS Apologist to demean White's faith (what one would call "anti-Baptist").  White conveniently leaves out this discrepancy. Due to his intellectual dishonesty, the reference "a lack of reciprocal terminology" isn't valid.
## If an Atheist was publishing conspiracy theories about Islam, an appeal to "reciprocal terminology" is absolutely meaningless. A Muslim who calls the critic "anti-Islam" or "Islamophobic" doesn't in turn have to self-identify as an "anti-Atheist."
# Unless the source conveys White countering the "anti-Mormon" label with objective facts or a valid comparison, this paragraph should be removed. Defensive and reactionary opinions are not appropriate for Wikipedia.
69.162.253.105 (talk) 08:52, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad Faith Argument by James White 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Anti-Latter Day Saint sentiment in the United States and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at  until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Regards, SONIC678 19:51, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Anti-Latter Day Saint sentiment in the United States" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: Would it be a useful addition to add a brief discussion of The Book of Mormon (musical) as an example of anti-Mormonism? Pete unseth (talk) 18:46, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because it criticized the  out-of-touch parts of the religion, it doesn't mean it counts as anti Mormon as it also kinda gives some merit to the group, meaning that it doesn't fully counts as a piece of anti-Mormonism Yippt (talk) 16:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Book of Mormon (musical) 

message: Any religion is subject to criticism. Christianity receives plenty, and it is not a hate crime. To note, even in a critical way, where Mormon teachings differ from that of historical Christianity is not “anti-Mormon.” 23.28.123.44 (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree---there are serious WP:NPOV issues with the article. Xnyarla (talk) 21:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article lumps a negative criticism in with hate crimes