Talk:Change ringing

message: Would it not be more sensible to have a BLUE blue line rather than a red one?! I can see this being particularly confusing for non-ringers.
"ringers (not to be confused with bird ringers)".
:Ok I am confused, what are bell ringers? Mintguy 11:31 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
::Ah.. I just noticed that it says bird ringers and not bell ringers. I saw what I wanted to see. I don't think anyone would have confused ringers with bird ringers, why was it there? Mintguy 11:33 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
It looks like this article was written by a change-ringer. Congrats! (I wish there was more changing-ringing going on in the US.) There is also, however, carillon-style bellringing, which is more common in the US and in continental Europe. This article ought to be reworked to reflect that it is change-ringing that is being discussed, especially in the history section. (Also, the playing of handbells can be considered bell-ringing.) I'm not sure what is up with he redirect from "change ringing" to "bellringing". (Is this an American vs. British usage thing, or a carillonneur vs. change-ringer usage thing, or just plain old confusion, perhaps on my part?) Aranel 19:03, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. In fact I think I will move it... anyone want to write something on the other ways of ringing a bell??Iainscott 13:57, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: What a first class article!  I'd say it ought to be a candidate for a Wikipedia featured page.
I'd like to suggest an addition about the (at one time) world-renowned Bow bells, perhaps like:
Bow Bells
The church of St Mary le Bow in London has a ring of 12 bells; traditionally a Londoner could not be called a Cockney unless "born within the sound of Bow Bells".  A 1926 recording of these bells became famous during WW2 by radio - the BBC General Overseas service used this recording for 10 or 15 minutes every day as a station-tuning signal before going on-air, broadcasting to resistance workers and fighters in occupied Europe.
The  "Great bell of Bow" is included in the last line of the children's nursery ryme "Oranges & Lemons".  Details of all the Bow bells may be found at http://london.lovesguide.com/mary_le_bow.htm, which includes a sound clip from the 1926 recording: http://london.lovesguide.com/sounds/mary_le_bow_gillett.wav. 
If anyone has access to the full recording as used by the BBC, could it be possible to identify the method? L0ngpar1sh (talk) 10:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Bow Bells

message: I don't really understand what this means:
:Due to the number of competitions, ringing by bands from Devon's more succesful towers is reckoned to have some of the best striking in the country.
Dbenbenn 18:43, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third question 

message: After reading the peer review request, I've gone ahead and boldly trimmed some details from the bell ringing mechanics section. IMHO, the article is not primarily about ringing bells, but about ringing them in a certain way (i.e. change ringing). Hence, the reader shouldn't need to plough through a lot of "unnecessary" details before he gets to the "meat" of the article. The rest of the article reads just fine, even for a non-ringer like me. I actually learned a lot from it! --Plek 15:07, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimmed some details from bell ringing mechanics 

message: Both in the text above and still in the main article, the wording says: "To ring the bell, the ringer will first pull the sally towards the floor, upsetting the bell's balance", and above too it says for ringing up: "...until once again the bell is poised upside-down".  Now hang on a mo, if bells were left like that it would be dangerous!  I have seen bells deliberately left up, for a wedding (or several weddings) later that same day.  But they're not "balanced", "poised" or any such thing - they are left slightly beyond the mouth-up position, with the stay resting against the slider.  Yes of course, all ringers know that, but that's not what the text says at the moment! L0ngpar1sh (talk) 18:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mechanics: a question of balance

message: One other thing: I noticed that the terms "bellringing", "bell ringing", "change-ringing" and "change ringing" are all being used in the article. I'm not a native English speaker myself, but wouldn't the proper way of writing these be: "bell ringing" and "change ringing" (as well as "bell ringers" instead of "bellringers")? --Plek 15:18, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bellringing vs. bell ringing and change-ringing vs. change ringing 

message: What is a good category for this article? Oleg Alexandrov 20:01, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. (Actually, I fixed this a month ago but forgot to record the fact here.) Doops |  talk 18:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Categorization

message: I'm a bellringer and therefore a pedant, so I have a couple of issues.  I've touched up the page a little in the places where I can find a good wording, but there are some other points.
A peal's acceptability is determined by the rules set by the CCCBR (http://www.cccbr.org.uk/).
Moving bells more than one place is generally called ringing "jump changes".  For a peal to be acceptable under the current rules, jump changes are not permitted.
The comment on true peals is a simplification of the actual rules and has a couple of mistakes, but the explanation required to clarify the statement would be extensive.  In particular, it's not necessary to ring every other change before returning to the one you just rang in order to maintain the truth of the composition.  A composition can be called true if you ring the same change closer together, providing this happens in a block where all changes are rung and are rung the same number of times.  So, for instance, on 6 bells where the extent is 720 changes, it is permissible to ring the same change closer than 720 changes apart if it's in a block of e.g. 1440 changes where every change is rung twice.  There are more complicated rules on what consists a true peal, and these rules are ultimately a bit arbitrary and change when the central council chooses to change them.
-- Ian, --221.246.251.34 15:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. Your point about trueness embarrassed me greatly since, quite apart from the CC "round blocks the length of two or more extents" exception, as written the article would have required a peal of minor to use the same method 6 times (since switching methods would inevitably lead to falseness under its ridiculously severe definition). That was very sloppy; I've fixed it and tried to incorporate all your other points. Would you take a look and see if I've succeeded? Doops |  talk 18:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: True peals

message: I have rewritten the section on method ringing to hopefully make it a bit more comprehensive. I felt that too much emphasis was placed on full peal-ringing. Some minor factual errors corrected, calls are used to extend a method, not shorten it. Added new information but the whole thing needs cleaning up.
I feel that now the article is too long, too many headings, and I propose that we create a sub-article. Any thoughts?
--Andrew Hyde 13:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. As a ringer with plenty of ringing but very few methods under my belt I think that the science of method-ringing is interesting and distinct enough to have its own article. This would be a sensible split, and not scare off anyone who just wanted to know about ringing. Naturenet | Talk 16:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

text: How about "Learning change ringing" ? "Learning to ring" could also mean bird ringing, I guess! Naturenet | Talk 10:46, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Rewrite of Method-ringing section 

message: I found this page after reading some history in school about a famous person who was a bell ringer. The context seemed to indicate that there was a stigma attached to this activity. I don't understand this hobby. Is this a mathematical challenge? Do ringers consider themselves musicians?
Is this a nostalgic way to remember monks that kept time for a town or an ancient sort of morse code?
It would be helpful to the uninitiated visitor of this page if there was something in the first paragraph about why people do this. 
I hope I don't sound critical, I'm just curious. 
-thanks  --Victoria h 23:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I don't understand 

message: I have never heard tintinnalogia (edit 06:39, 2006 May 10 user:Eliyyahu ) as a term for change ringing. The Google reference is to a book by Fabian Stedman (who I do acknowledge as very significant, and needs an article), but whose 300 year old language in the title for a book is not definitive these days. Can anyone else comment on the usage of this word today? Oosoom 09:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been ringing for many years in S and E England, and my family have for several generations. I've never heard the term before. Naturenet | Talk 17:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Link added. Oosoom 08:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tintinnalogia? 

message: Can we have some discussion on external links?
I remember some time ago a lot of links to local associations were removed, and they are starting to creep back now (I've just removed one). If every local association linked it's own home page into wikipedia then the page would be over run with links. This is consistent with WP:NOT policy.
On the other hand, a few association links might be advantageous, to show such sites exist, particularly when they are out side the UK.
What do other people think?StormCloud 13:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think links should be limited to things like CCCBR (maybe Dove too as a separate link altough it's hosted within the CCCBR pages); maybe (pan-)national societies e.g. ANZAB, NAGCR (possibly College Youths and Cumberlands on a similar basis); Campanophile; and Roger Bailey's Ringing Resources (which itself probably is the major link directory for ringing).  David Underdown 13:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I just scanned this article as it's late and I don't feel like reading the whole thing.  (So there.)  It didn't really look like there would be a section that might contain the answer, so I figured I'd ask here. 
Are the bells the same as carillon bells?  I mean the bells, themselves, not their execution or whatnot.  I understand that they're pitched, which would make me think that they would, at least, be similar, but, as free-swinging bells, are they larger?  Deeper?  Do they have the same overly-prominent minor third overtone?
I've been doing an inordinate amount reading about bells lately.  Either I'm becoming Quasimodo or Poe.  Or some sort of morose, disfigured hybrid.
—  MusicMaker5376 06:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there are any major differences in profile and so on, so the physics is basically the same.  English bell foundries do cast bells for carillons as well.  As for size, as stated in the article the heaviest used weighs about 4 tonnes, the lightest are probably of the order of 100g.  There is a link to some recordings of this style of benll at the bottom of the article, so you can probably judge for yourself. David Underdown 09:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overtones and whatnot 

message: There is a recent 12 in the Isle of Man, and slightly older 10 in Guernsey, so UK and Ireland is not an adequate description of the area.  David Underdown (talk) 09:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  British Isles 

message: I added an image of a dismounted bell I had handy. There are are a couple of questions for the caption:
#It looks like the entire bell mount has been taken down - or is it mounted in a temporary structure.
#To my mind, the metal headstock exists to counter-balance the weight of the bell - and this should perhaps be mentioned in the text (otherwise the weight of the bell would always cause it to hang down) - the bell ringer only has to cope with moving the mass of the bell - not the weight.
#The wheel, in this case, appears to be metal - not wood.
#The headstock appears to be specifically cast iron - not generic metal.
Perhaps someone who is more of an expert would consider those matters in the caption and accompanying text. Cheers Kbthompson (talk) 11:51, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it must be in a temporary structure - if you look at the (bottom) righthand edge of the bell, you can see that it's touching the frame, so obviously the bell could not turn in this frame.  The metal headstock, and the fact that the top of the bell is above the centre of the wheel do counter-balance it to some extent, which makes it easier to raise the bell for ringing, and to pull it off, but the natural poisiton of any bell is mouth down.  The ringer first has to "raise" the bell by slowly increasing the amplitude of its swing, until the bell is ringing a full-circle with each pull (think of pushing a child on a swing, give it a small push just as it starts it's swing, and the child rises higher and higher on each swing, with a bell, it's pulling the rope at the appropriate time which adds the impetus).  However, once up, it's the stay (the pice of wood sticking up on the right hand side) and the slider (the lack of which is another give away for this being a temporary frame) that allow the bell to rest mouth uppermost, the slider is a piece of wood that runs across the frame, under the bell, pivotted at the wheel side, and with two stops at a given space apart on the side of the frame where the stay is, as the bell swings full circle, the stay contacts the slider, and the free end slides across until it is in contact with the stop, when the bell swings the other way, the slider is knocked back the other way, and when the stay is allowed to come to rest against the slider, it will hold the bell mouth-up (the ringer should stop the bell short of the full travel of the slider when ringing normally, if you don't eventually the stay, as it is designed to do, will break, to prevent damage to the bearings etc, and the bell will turn over and over, potentially pulling the ringer up toward the ceiling of the ringing chamber, or burning their hands).  It seems to me that the wheel is basically wooden, but with some metal reinforcement where it joins to the headstock (a metal wheel would probably wear the ropes out too quickly).  Cast iron is fairly commonly used, but I wouldn't like to swear to it.  Interestingly, the headstock has Warner, London cast into it, indicating that it was probably reused from an earlier set of bells, since the current bells were cast in 1994 by Taylors, and Warner's is long defunct.  David Underdown (talk) 13:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

text: The bearings will be sealed ball-bearing units, which would normally be bolted to the "real" frame - you very occasionally still come across plain-bearings (i.e. basically just an axle in a sort of metal cup I think), but usually only in places where the bells haven't been upgraded in a very long time.  David Underdown (talk) 13:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headstock 

message: If there is such a thing as a "normal" tuning for the bells, what is it?  That is to say, if there are 6 bells, to what notes are the bells tuned?  If specific notes are not involved, are there specific intervals between the notes of the bells?  JimCubb (talk) 01:55, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As the article says in the first paragraph after the lead "The bells are usually tuned to a diatonic major scale, with the tenor bell being the tonic (or key) note of the scale."  However, the ring may be in any key, and the tuning is sometimes rather approximate - rings may well consist of bells cast centuries apart, with different profiles, and hence differing acoustic properties.  Details of all rings can be found in Dove's Guide for Church Bell Ringers, online at http://dove.cccbr.org.uk/dove.php where you'll see that key is one of the options you can search on.  For any individual tower the nominal pitch of each bell is also given.  Modern bells are fine-tuned by (basically) turning on a lathe and scraping out metal from the inside until the desired pitch is precisely achieved, but this is a fairly recent innovation (well, within the last century!).  This said the acoustics of bells are quite peculiar.  The strike note (i.e. what's heard when the clapper strikes the soundbow of the bell) is quite different from the hum note, which is what's usually perceived as the pitch of the bell (this difference is what gives a bell it's characteristic "ding" sound), and the overtones are not, from what little I understand, the "standard" harmonic series.
If hand bells and tower bells have the same acoustic qualities and if I remember correctly from my reading of the acoustic qualities of hand bell, two very large ifs, a tower bell's first overtone is a major 12th above the fundamental.  The tuning process takes the natural harmonic and tunes it to the fundamental of the bell a major 12th above the given bell.  I dimly remember that the tuning process involves the shoulder of the bell.  Further than that, I have no clue.
Thank you for your answer.  JimCubb (talk) 03:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tuning Question 

message: The section on half-muffling was originally at Half-muffled. I should have mentioned this in the edit summary but forgot. LordVetinari (talk) 08:27, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Half-muffling 

message: user:Contratrombone64 added the comment "[says who??]" the the statement "For convenience, the bells are referred to by number, with the treble being number 1 and the other bells numbered ... sequentially down the scale. (This system often seems counterintuitive to musicians [says who??], who are used to a numbering which ascends along with pitch.)".  I have reverted this since most music theory does number upwards, in a scale the supertonic is referred to as the second, the mediant as the third and so forth up to the leading note as the seventh.  Frets on a stringed instrument are numbered upwards, as are the keys on a piano (look next time a tuner has the keys off the board).  The original contributor was careful to say "often" not "always".  Both as a learner myself and nowadays when teaching it is apparent that musicians often do have a problem with the numbering, particularly when talking about a "flat 5th" when a musician knows it is the 4th of a scale that is flattened! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:11, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbering of bells 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Change ringing. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080613195450/http://www.cccbr.org.uk:80/rc/long_lengths/40320_plain_bob_major.html to http://www.cccbr.org.uk/rc/long_lengths/40320_plain_bob_major.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061029070725/http://www.lincolncathedral.com/xhtml/default.asp?UserLinkID=62279 to http://www.lincolncathedral.com/xhtml/default.asp?UserLinkID=62279
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 03:51, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Change ringing. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160103031112/http://www.cccbr.org.uk/prc/pubs/bellsAndBellringing.php to http://www.cccbr.org.uk/prc/pubs/bellsAndBellringing.php
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:58, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Two instances of this, neither work at present.  The citations/links need reworking.  If no-one else does I'll have a go later. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:34, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article is called change ringing, yet it has a large first section on the mechanics of bells, which is more appropriate in another article, such as ring of bells.  
Propose cutting down the long mechanics of bells section to a simple explanation of the constraints that full circle ringing of tower bells imposed to cause change ringing to develop, and adding more material and link ring of bells as a main article. Dougsim (talk) 06:32, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In principle, yes.  Don't do too much cutting though, the issues of inertia are essential to understanding both the why and how.  To be honest, all of the bell ringing (and indeed possibly even all bell-related) articles need a thorough overhaul to reduce the amount of duplication whilst still keeping each article full enough for reader comprehension (WP:RF).  I've just been having a look at WP:WikiProject Music and cannot see anywhere that bells fit in (except possibly as a footnote to percussion).  Even the template seems to be a bit hit-and-miss.  Perhaps there ought to be a sub-project to bring together all aspects of campanology from lists of the heaviest bells through to portable rings. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

text: I would look for a better definition of change-ringing!  CCCBR would be more authoritative than the Encyclopaedia Britannica (see Change Ringing for example).  Call changes most definitely are change-ringing.  For instance the EB article doesn't mention methods or principles.  I'll think about structure, the whole campanology field is wide and very cross linked. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid I'm out of touch with RW.  I've recently changed home tower and we don't get a copy where I ring now. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:13, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  purpose of article 

message: I've added some images of St Bees bells to show mouth down and mouth up - this speaks a thousand words.
There seem to be very few images like this in the public domain, which is a pity. Everyone seems to do them for their own web site etc. Also sad lack of public domain animations.
Dougsim (talk) 10:34, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  added images 

message: Realise CCCBR is a re-direct page - should it not have its own?
Dougsim (talk) 11:35, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's briefly also mentioned on The Ringing World!  I'm seriously thinking about proposing a campanology project, part of the music (or possibly percussion) project.  We need to hunt out all bell-related articles and get the hat notes sorted out.  I would suggest a target plan something like:
Campanology
* History
* Lists (largest, oldest etc)
* Bells
** forms and materials
** tuning
** hanging
* Structures
** Integral towers
** campaniles
** bell cotes (and small gables)
** (large) bell gables
** clocks
* Ringing
** change ringing
***Call changes
***Methods and principles
****Are individual methods worthy of note?
** Veronese
** Carillon (inc Ellacombe)
** handbells
** Percussion section ("cow bells")
* Organisations
** CCCBR (inc RW, use a redirect)
Comments? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

text: I've been busy sorting out the references and citations for Raasay which were in a right old mess.  I also need to get back to Subhas Chandra Bose‎ to complete some tidying up there.  Moving back to bells; I see two options:
# A subproject of music
# Get the campanology page shaken into shape as a master page for the subject with main page hat notes to the specific articles.  Likewise all the articles need their hat notes back upwards as well as cross links.
# Both!
Let's have a quick discussion on the way forward - Doug, would you care to ping all those with recent edits on the topics?  Can we aim for closure on Saturday and then move forward. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  CCCBR link 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Change ringing. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141021112627/http://www.kcacr.org.uk/ww1page/roh.htm to http://www.kcacr.org.uk/ww1page/roh.htm#Alphabetical
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ststephens.me.uk/web/the_city.htm#ringers
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090920091959/http://math.boisestate.edu:80/~tconklin/MATH124/Main/Notes/8%20Group%20Theory/Group%20Theory/The%20Hunting%20Group.pdf to http://math.boisestate.edu/~tconklin/MATH124/Main/Notes/8%20Group%20Theory/Group%20Theory/The%20Hunting%20Group.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160103031112/http://www.cccbr.org.uk/prc/pubs/bellsAndBellringing.php to http://www.cccbr.org.uk/prc/pubs/bellsAndBellringing.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081120235513/http://www.changeringing.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Main_Page to http://www.changeringing.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:49, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've flagged '"hips" or "shoots"' as dubious.  Can anyone confirm or deny the use of these terms?  I've never heard them in the UK but that doesn't mean that they are not used there or abroad.  The fact that the IP user refers to firing as a "method" makes me a little suspicious.  The original edit was by , and it is only edit under that IP. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:50, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Firing 

message: I have no knowledge of change-ringing myself. But I recently came across this source
https://www.whitingsociety.org.uk/old-ringing-books/snowdon-standard-methods.html
which shows that "legitimate" methods of change-ringing in England changed, controversially, in 1903.
Should anyone want to expand the "History" section, this may be a useful source. Maproom (talk) 22:17, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Maproom, the 1903 method decisions certainly are a notable event marking the decline of certain treble bob and delight methods. The Whiting society online books are a good source of material. Cheers Qazwsx777 (talk) 09:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some history 

message: Doesn't add up! 930+55+12 = 997, not 985 as stated Mdrb55 (talk) 19:07, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of unringable rings