Talk:Doo-wop

message: The article says it was an Afro-American genre. Why are all the photos old white guys?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:C602:9FA1:81E3:A5B7:FE24:F3F (talk) 23:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black artists? 

message: Substituted at 13:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Would their hits in the early 80's be considered a Doo-wop influenced revival?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.144.81.70 (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Stray Cats were a rockabilly outfit. Doo Wop is characterised by close harmony; The Stray Cats had a single lead singer. MrDemeanour (talk) 10:47, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stray Cats? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Doo-wop. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://archive.is/20130128150806/http://miamitimesonline.com/street-corner-renaissance-takes-%E2%80%98doo-wop%E2%80%99-to-new-levels/ to http://miamitimesonline.com/street-corner-renaissance-takes-%E2%80%98doo-wop%E2%80%99-to-new-levels/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:26, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: contains the following claim:
*"the scat backing vocal "doo-wop" is heard in The Delta Rhythm Boys' 1945 recording of "Just A-Sittin' And A-Rockin", 
 and I don't know the song but would be surprised if it contained scat singing back -up vocals.  Some folks think that all nonsense lyrics are scat singing and that is not so. Our definition of scat singing is that it is 'improvisational" and very rarely, if ever, is back-up singing that.  I am inclined to remove the word but since I am new to this article I want to give you a chance to discuss it.  Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 22:01, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the term 'scat backing vocal' is a contradiction in terms. Looks like that was added here , which was way back in 2011. I suggest you delete the term 'scat'. MrDemeanour (talk) 11:20, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

text: I went ahead and made the change. MrDemeanour (talk) 16:57, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  the "Etymology" section 

message: Here is the first paragraph of the introductory section as I found it:
:Doo-wop is a genre of rhythm and blues music that was developed in African-American communities in the East Coast of the United States in the 1940s, achieving mainstream popularity in the 1950s and early 1960s. Built upon vocal harmony, doo-wop was one of the most mainstream, pop-oriented styles of the time. Singer Bill Kenny is often called the "Godfather of Doo-wop" for his introducing the "top and bottom" format which featured a high tenor singing the lead and a bass singer reciting the lyrics in the middle of the song. Doo-wop features vocal group harmony, nonsense syllables, a simple beat, sometimes little or no instrumentation, and simple music and lyrics.
Problems.  Since doo-wop is a genre of music, shouldn't its musical characteristics have pride of place?  Statements about its origins and eventual popularity come before any indication of its musical character; we get a historical detail about one specific feature before any mention of its most general features.  And what does "most mainstream, pop-oriented styles of the time" mean?  If something is in the mainstream, it can't be more in the mainstream than other things in the mainstream; and again, if something is oriented towards X, it can't be more oriented towards X than other things oriented towards X—that would be like saying that, although you and I are standing across from the White House, I'm standing more across from it than you.  Finally, I'm not sure what "pop-oriented" means, what other styles are being referred to, what other "orientations" there are, and why it should be significant that doo-wop was so oriented.   
The statement that doo-wop was "developed in African-American communities in the East Coast of the United States in the 1940s" suffers from several problems.  It was black American youths who developed the style; the style didn't just develop on its own everywhere in some "community."  The term "community" is overused now:  it does not refer to a specific physical location, but an immaterial moral entity in which there are no individual agents.  "East Coast" refers to all states from Maine to Florida, so it is too general, and "large cities like New York" would be preferable.   "African-American" is politically correct; I am black, born in 1957, and it sounds quite strange to use this phrase, which Jesse Jackson proposed in the early 1980s to try to give black people more ethnic dignity even though not all blacks thought such enhancement was necessary, to denote black people who called themselves either "black" or "Negro."  More problematically still, with the great increase in numbers of black African immigrants, it is strictly speaking illogical to use the phrase to denote black Americans who were not born in any African country.  
Proposals. I think that a reader is best served by a simple accurate indication of doo-wop's basic origins, and then an itemization of its basic musical features.  The statement about Kenny belongs in the section on origins.  The statement about the mainstream and orientation makes no sense, so I will remove it.  If its author would like to make the point clearer, it should be explained what is significant about the fact that doo-wop entered the mainstream (which I presume has something to do with the fact that black youth invented it); this statement belongs in a paragraph about popularity.  A revised statement about orientation belongs in the section on the development of the genre.
Here is the second paragraph:
:The first hit record to use the syllables "doo-wop" was probably "When You Dance" by The Turbans in 1955.[2] The term "doo-wop" first appeared in print in 1961. During the late 1950s many Italian-American groups contributed a significant part in the doo-wop scene. The peak of doo-wop was in 1961. Doo-wop's influence continued in soul, pop, and rock groups of the 1960s. At various times in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, the genre has seen revivals. Doo-wop was a precursor to many of the African-American musical styles seen today. Evolved from pop, jazz and blues, doo-wop also influenced many of the major rock and roll groups that defined the later decades of the 20th century. Doo-wop is iconic for its swing-like beats and using the off-beat to keep time. Doo-wop laid the foundation for many musical innovations. 
Problems.  The first two sentences of this paragraph are about the term "doo-wop," but each of the other seven sentences introduces a new topic.  The paragraph therefore has no focus, no coherence, and no development, and so has no logical order at all.  No reader could find it informative.   
Proposals The paragraph does not belong in the introductory section at all, nor should it be kept as it is and placed elsewhere.  Since some of the information repeats or contradicts information in other sentences elsewhere, only such information as is pertinent to a topic and develops it should be incorporated in a logical place in an appropriate paragraph in an appropriate section.  For the moment, I will merely dump the paragraph in the section on origins.Wordwright (talk) 03:36, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems in the introductory section and proposed improvements. 

message: That first paragraph of the section currently reads as follows:
::During the years around World War II, hit records by African-American vocal groups such as The Delta Rhythm Boys, The Cats and the Fiddle, the Ink Spots, The Mills Brothers, along with Negro spiritual groups, set important precedents for the genre. The Ink Spots had a string of record successes in the 1930s and 1940s, both in the United States and in Britain, with "If I Didn't Care", one of the best selling singles worldwide of all time, and "Address Unknown", with The Mills Brothers following suit in the 1940s until the mid 1950s with songs such as "Paper Doll", "You Always Hurt The One You Love" and "Glow Worm."
Problem. Doo-wop is mentioned only obliquely, and no precedents are identified at all.  Why mention Negro spiritual groups at all if you aren't going to identify the precedents only to be found in their work?   Why mention the hits?  Do they contain musical devices that were particularly influential?  This just seems to be a random list of groups and songs who had hits.  And what does "the years around WWII" mean?  Since the writer mentions the period from the 1930s to the 1950s, and in the next paragraph a song from 1934 is mentioned, WWII has nothing to do with the music's history.  Finally, since the two crucial musical innovations identified in the next paragraph derive from white composers, it is inaccurate simply to speak of "hit records" as the source of precedents without identifying the composers of the songs.  The fact that the vocal groups were black is irrelevant; the question is who composed the music.  
Proposal.  Make "doo-wop" the first word of the section, and then identify, in order of importance, the musical precedents; race should not be a criterion of order.  A transfer of info from the second to the first paragraph will be necessary. Clean up the chronology.
Here is the second paragraph:
::These were generally slow songs in swing time with simple instrumentation and close four-part harmony reminiscent of the barbershop quartet from which The Mills Brothers evolved. The subject of the lyrics was generally love and relationships. The typical doo-wop chord progression I–VI–IV–V was a slight but significant variation of the I-VI-II-V-loop that generated several American 1930s hits such as the Rodgers and Hart penned "Blue Moon" (1934), and Hoagy Carmichael and Frank Loesser's single "Heart and Soul" (1938); it would later become closely associated with doo-wop such that it is sometimes referred to as the 50s progression. This characteristic harmonic layout was combined with the AABA chorus form typical for Tin Pan Alley pop. A second stream of doo-wop oriented itself to the harmonic, formal and melodic means of jump blues. 
Problems.  There are three basic topics:  composition, orchestration, and vocals, which should come in that order, since the first is the condition for the second, and the second for the third.  They all belong in the first paragraph. If the chord progression was closely associated with doo-wop, then why wasn't it called "the doo-wop progression"?  The name "the 50s progression" suggests that, though it may have originated with doo-wop, it became so pervasive in all 50s music that, etc.
The sentence about the subject is irrelevant and unnecessary—most popular songs are about love and relationships.  The last sentence is mysterious:  what is the first stream of doo-wop, and what is jump blues? 
Proposals.  I will move the relevant information to the first paragraph, and eliminate the irrelevant sentences.  The writer who knows about the two streams should identify groups or songs that exemplify both, and discuss the musical characteristics of jump blues.Wordwright (talk) 20:41, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem in "Musical Precedents" (I). 

message: One of the many problems with 's edits is that they do not conform, in many respects, with Wikipedia's manual of style.  An obvious example is the Excessive Use of Capital Letters in Sub-headings.  Other examples are the unacceptable degree of commentary with words like "remarkably" and "of course" - which should not be used unless specifically derived from reliable sources.  The suggested opening sentence contains 77 words, including three uses of "simple" - not, I think, an example of good writing.  Whether the changes made represent an overall improvement is something I haven't yet decided, but the editor's over-lengthy explanations and expositions, and blatant disregard for the usual collegiate approach which we try to adopt here, do not inspire confidence.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:07, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I just found this, and by a strange coincidence my last edit was to remove an "of course" from somewhere in here.  So while waiting for a repairman to come and fix my garage door I decided to read through this talk page and improve the article. What I found was half a dozen problems and proposals and as I sifted through them I found my self throwing in tons of "yeah, buts" and finally thought, "How do we proceed?" I guess just pick one and go for it, or maybe use the so-called "Sound of Music" approach, "Start at the very beginning, the very best place to start." What should we do? What ever it is it needs (opinion) to be done in very small bites. Carptrash (talk) 15:03, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent edits

message: This recent edit, "Puerto Rican Herman Santiago, originally slated to be the lead singer of the Teenagers, " while I understand the intent, is not accurate.  By the time the group was named the "Teenagers" Frankie Lyman was already the lead singer. I also think the whole bit about who wrote what that follows is misplaced. It has what to do with the racial issue.  If in fact there is a racial issue because I am not sure that Santiago was not an Afro-Puerto Rican. Carptrash (talk) 18:24, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been looking a renentish interviews with Santiago and he does not look Afro, so that's okay.Carptrash (talk) 18:47, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  a problem for me 

message: the bit about Bill Kenney being "called the "Godfather of Doo-Wop" " because a google search for the title, besides bringing up Kenny, mostly word-for-word what we have also reveals that 
*Wally Roker = The Godfather of Doo Wop
*Wayne Stierle - The Godfather of Doo Wop
*Tom DeSantis, "The Godfather of Doo Wop" 
*Frankie Lymon, the Godfather of Doo-Wop.
*Godfather of Doo Wop , Ken Held 
*Joseph Ulto,  Godfather of Doo Wop 
*Harvey (Fuqua) was the Godfather of Doo Wop,
*Tommy (DeSantis) who is also known as The Godfather of Doo Wop 
One more just seemed silly. Carptrash (talk) 19:16, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  I just removed 

message: featuring the Mills Brothers is a great shot but not really representative of a Doo-wop group.  I am not quite sure what the picture should be, but I know what it should not be.  And that is the Mills Brothers.  Any ideas?  Carptrash (talk) 23:50, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I brought this up 6 months ago, since there is no discussion I am going to remove the picture. Carptrash (talk) 14:54, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at vocal groups in Commons, and there's nothing that leaps out to me as being a good illustration.  Most of the pictures are of reunions or later groups, or not doo-wop in any way.   I would have thought that there must be pictures of 1950s groups that would be good to use in the article, but I'm not sure of their licensing rights.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:38, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a picture of Maurice Williams and the Zodiacs that claims to be free.  I was thinking of using it. Carptrash (talk) 18:38, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks the part!   Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:07, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone beat us to it with a fine shot. Carptrash (talk) 19:09, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  the lede picture 

message: I reverted these changes to the opening sentence.  There is no dispute, as the article makes clear, that the style developed in the 1950s (and early 1960s) as a sub-genre of popular music (not "pop music") with the involvement of Italian-American and other singers.  However, the opening sentence refers to its origins, and there is equally no doubt that the style originated in the 1940s in African-American communities - as is also made clear in the text.  The question arises as to whether, for clarity, the word "developed" in the opening sentence should be changed to "originated".  I would be happy for that change to be made if other editors agree.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:21, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll be bold and make that change.  OK with everyone?   Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:49, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fine with me. I think "originated" is more precisely correct. I'm reading up on the subject now, as I would like to add some clarifying content to the lede and make some other changes to the article's text, all supported by reliable sources, of course. The user InBoxed seems to think editors can make substantial, unsupported changes to the lede by arbitrary decree, and that these changes should stand because, as he says of himself, "I have studied the history and science of music for over 16 year." [sic] That is not the case. Carlstak (talk) 15:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits (Feb. 2020) 

message: I just cut this out, feel free to support why it should go back in.
*"The Four Seasons had pop hits with "Rag Doll", "Come on Marianne" and many others. They and the Beach Boys were among only a very few American bands who enjoyed success both before, during, and after the British invasion."
"Rag Doll" and "Come On Marianne" are not doo-wop songs and including them here like this only confuses things.  The "British Invasion" stuff has nothing to do with doo-wop. Carptrash (talk) 23:38, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: "...nothing to do with..." is too harsh.  The British bands clearly drew from what they heard from doo-wop and other sources, in terms of harmonies in particular.  Here's the first source I found at random...  "...After all, much of their repertoire consisted of covers by rock, R&B, and doo-wop acts (their harmonies were often inspired by the latter). ...".  And here... "The Del-Vikings – “Come Go With Me”... This doo-wop hit from ’57 was the song John was singing with The Quarrymen at the Woolton church fête the first time Paul set eyes on him."    Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:58, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if you would like to add a section on doo-wop in the British Invasion that would be fine. I am curious to see what you come up with, I have a fairly good grasp of that music and nothing is coming to mind.  However what I removed was, "They and the Beach Boys were among only a very few American bands who enjoyed success both before, during, and after the British invasion" which has nothing to do with doo-wop anywhere.Carptrash (talk) 17:12, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't commenting on the text you removed, I was commenting on your comment about the "British Invasion".  Of course, that was a uniquely US cultural phenomenon - but what I might do (not in the next week, but eventually, I hope)  is find sources to expand the text on the role of R&B music including doo-wop in the article on beat music (which is the genre that the "BI" groups were performing).   Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:02, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have that article watchlisted from the past as well as British rhythm and blues.  I was a reader of Melody Maker back then so got a lot of the discussions about who was and who was not . . . ........... whatever. Carptrash (talk) 21:28, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

text: Ha, I'm glad you're pruning this stuff. Four Seasons, Four Schmeasons. Frankie Valli's falsetto was like fingernails dragged on chalkboard to my ears when I was a kid. Carlstak (talk) 01:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Part of Four Seasons hits removed 

message: There's a reason that barbershop quartets sing a capella, and I suspect it applies to Doo-Wop as well.  To achieve the "ringing chords" of a barbershop group, they have to sing in just intonation, whereas most accompanying instruments are played with equal temperament.  I leave it to someone with musical scholarship to hopefully enter this into the article.  BMJ-pdx (talk) 03:16, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The reason for ''a capella''. 

message: The inclusion of a quote regarding Elvis Presley is crudely included and not preceded by any sort of introduction to Presley/how he relates to the topic. Reading through this section is difficult; there is no sense of flow. I opine that the section need be rewritten or that the quotes discussing Presley be axed. Additionally, the successive sentences discuss cultural appropriation—this is a very poor inclusion of this idea, and I think it deserves a section of its own. 
Overall, please review the "Doo-wop and racial relations" section, particularly the Taruskin quote.  Zyploc (talk) 20:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Your complaint is hauntingly familiar, but I agree, so I've removed that bit in spite of your saying elsewhere that you are "perfect most of the time" (where have I heard that before?).;-) Carlstak (talk) 04:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  § Doo-wop and racial relations