Talk:HMAS Sydney (D48)

message: The Finding Sydney Foundation has released a sonar image of the wreckage. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 01:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The sonar images from the Finding Sydney Foundation "press room' CAN be used reproduced under the terms of the Foundation's legal information. Images of the Sydney are here. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 02:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, they may not:  Socrates2008 (Talk) 03:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep reading further down the same page.
 203.7.140.3 (talk) 04:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: March 2008, found

message: Sydney is described as being laid down on the 8th July 1933 as HMS Phaeton and then being purchased by the Australian Government, to then be renamed Sydney. She was launched on 22 September 1934. Does this then mean she was scheduled to be named Phaeton but didn't actually receive the name? Does this also mean she therefore never carried the name as she was never launched as the Phaeton? Ozdaren (talk) 10:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  HMS Phaeton? 

message: HMAS Sydney was a modified Leander-class light cruiser of the Royal Australian Navy. The ship had great success in the first years of World War II, but controversy and mystery surrounds the loss of Sydney and her crew in November 1941. Her sinking with all hands represents the greatest ever loss of life in an Australian warship; Sydney was also the largest vessel of any country to be lost with all hands during the war.[2]
It was announced on 16 March 2008 that the wreckage of the German vessel which sank HMAS Sydney, the auxiliary cruiser HSK Kormoran, had been found on the night of 14 March 2008.[3] On the next day, 17 March 2008, the discovery of the wreck of HMAS Sydney was announced by Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.[4] Sydney was located on 15 March 2008, 150 kilometres (81 nmi) from Shark Bay and 22 kilometres (12 nmi) from the location where the Kormoran was found.
:There's no longer a mystery, and the dates as currently given are a bit jumbled. •Jim62sch•dissera! 19:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Someone fix this

message: There are many paragraphs without in line citations, as required at GA level in practice.  Presumably these are based on the books in "Further reading", but these will need to be looked at to give specific references.--Grahame (talk) 07:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm on the case. Socrates2008 (Talk) 10:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, saw this on the GAN, just a small note: I looked at the article using Internet Explorer (I know a lot users use Mozilla), the sonar pic clashes with the first 3 refs in the "refs" section. Ryan4314  (talk) 19:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed, thanks. Socrates2008 (Talk) 21:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem pal, maybe you could check out a ship article I rewrote recently, HMS Cardiff (D108). Ryan4314  (talk) 21:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry mate, just had a look again, I don't think it's quite fixed. I took a screen of it for you here (  ). I think it's the image sandwich that's doing it, maybe one of those two pics needs to go, hmmm tough choice. Ryan4314  (talk) 21:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Swapping the images seemed to have sorted it now, thanks. Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Not a GA review

message: I've seen one or two texts refer to Sydney's class as a "Perth-class" light cruiser.  "Leander-class" was the original Royal Navy design, while "Amphion-class" was an upgraded Leander, originally intended for the Royal Navy.  However HMS Amphion was never commissioned into the Royal Navy - indeed none of the other ships in the class were, as they were purchased by the RAN.  So is "Perth-class" the correct designation, or just something someone assumed, given that HMAS Perth (ex-HMS Amphion) ended up being the first ship in the class? Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Royal Australian Navy calls Sydney and her two sisters 'Modified Leander Class Light Cruisers' at . I'd suggest that this is probably the best name. --Nick Dowling (talk) 09:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Given that the modified Leanders had two funnels instead of one large funnel they had a distinctly different appearance. So for identification purposes it made sense to list them as a class of their own in the ID-books to avoid confusion. Nevfennas (talk) 09:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ship class

message: Finding Sydney Foundation have now released photos of the deck and turrets. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 00:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are the photos from the Press Room. These CAN be used with acknowledgement under the same conditions as the sonar images. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 03:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos of wreck 

message: This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. I have a few issues at the moment
;Refs
*Refs, we need page numbers for the refs.
;Factual issues 
*What is the displacement unit? Gross tons, displacement, tons etc...
*This problem and some others with the class were fixed in HMAS Hobart, : What were the other problems, that is a very vague sentence.
*How long were the sea trials?
;Images
*Check the legal status of :Image:HMAS Sydney Sonar Image.jpg. Up for deletion on Commons.
**Moot point now, it has been deleted. Woody (talk) 13:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: On hold

message: Lifeboats have been found near the wreck. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 04:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lifeboats 

message: Check out the latest batch from the Finding Sydney Foundation press room. 59.167.40.126 (talk) 13:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More photos 

message: Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade, Completed Inquiry: The loss of HMAS Sydney. I think a summary of this would be important in getting FA status.
The Sinking of HMAS Sydney: A Guide to Commonwealth Government Records by the National Archives of Australia.
An episode of ABC TV's Rewind had an item about the search of archival records about the Sydney in 2004. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 00:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional sources 

message: The National Archives has made a lot of previously classified documents available online. http://www.naa.gov.au/whats-on/online/showcases/hmas-sydney/ 203.7.140.3 (talk) 05:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Added to external links, thank you. Socrates2008 (Talk) 06:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More references 

message: I've removed this unreferenced section as it does not add to the story of Sydney, and furthermore was laced with weasel words.  If you have a strong argument for bringing it back, please discuss here first, and ensure that you have reliable references to back the information up.  This is currently a good article - please help to keep it that way.  Socrates2008 (Talk) 06:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree, although I added some of this.  I have copied some of this to the article on the battle with Kormoran, as it has some bearing on conspiracy theories, if there are problems with lack of references and weasel words they should be dealt with there. PatGallacher (talk) 18:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good move. I nearly removed it myself. The correct claim is made in the 1st paragraph of the article. A comparison with not 'allied' sinkings or sinkings where not 'all hands were lost' is irrelevant. --Lanyon (talk) 06:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparison with other sinkings

message: Relevant information from the recently declassified sources should be digested and added over the next few months with the aim of making this the featured article for 22 November 2009, the 75th anniversary of her launch. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 04:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a fine plan - the results of the Board of Investigation should be available long before then too.  Note that the declassified material is considered a primary source (The FA requirement is for reliable secondary sources). Socrates2008 (Talk) 05:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Good plan and a good date to aim for. There may be some use for these primary sources but they would need to be digested by a secondary source. It looks like they were declassified specifically for the Board of Investigation so this may be a good enough source. The primary sources could be added as well for verification. ShipFan (talk) 08:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine that the Board of Inquiry's final report will include an assessment of the primary sources Nick-D (talk) 09:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Go for FA? 

message: Hi there. I'm not familiar with this article but just read these to stories. I thought it might be helpful. Sorry if it's old news.
* http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/computer-images-show-hmas-sydney-damage/2009/01/12/1231608591927.html
* http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2009/Jan/20090112/index.htm
regards --Merbabu (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably, I think. It appears to be very conclusive explanation of why there were no survivors Nick-D (talk) 10:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the tip - have added a link to the enquiry.  If we can establish the copyright status of the images, we might be able to use some of them as they are much better than the ones currently in the article. Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:29, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The computer generated graphics will be covered by Defence copyright and the photos of the wreck are either Defence copyright or Finding Sydney Foundation copyright. Nick-D (talk) 07:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this news or not??? 

message: I have taken the plunge and nominated the article for FA. Feel free to leave comments. ShipFan (talk) 14:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so suggest that a plan of action is discussed here before the next FA.  Perhaps an A-Class review would be a good milestone on the way there? In any event the FAC comments already provide quite a few pointers as to where the article needs improvement. Socrates2008 (Talk) 08:21, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nominated for FA 

message: I'm housebound for the duration of October following an operation, so I figured I could put that time to good use by expanding this article towards FA (unless anybody else has dibs on this).
I've identified seven books about the ship available from my local libarary network, but instead of borrowing them all, I was hoping that those more familiar with the subject could identify the two or three 'best' texts on which to base the expanded content, or (approaching it from another angle) indicate which works (or parts of works) may not be as reliable as desired or should otherwise be treated with caution.
In no particular order:
* Olson, Wesley (2000). Bitter Victory: the death of HMAS Sydney. Nedlands, WA: University of WA
* Winter, Barbara (1984). H.M.A.S. Sydney: fact, fantasy and fraud. Brisbane: Boolarong
* Frame, Tom (1993). HMAS Sydney: loss and controversy. Sydney: Hodder (the 2008 edition published by Hachette Livre is also available if there is a preferred version)
* Montgomery, Michael (1981). Who Sank The Sydney?. Sydney: Cassell
* Mearns, David. (2009). The Search for the Sydney. Pymble, NSW: HarperCollins Publishers
* McDonald, Glenys (2005). Seeking the Sydney: a quest for truth. Crawley, WA: University of Western Australia Press
* Samuels, John (2005). Somewhere Below: the Sydney scandal exposed. Broadway, NSW: Halstead Press
On top of this, I will be borrowing other books with a broader subject area (mostly histories of World War II or the RAN) plus drawing from internet-accessible books (like Gill's World War II histories) and my own small collection to supplement the info and ensure a bit of diversity in the referencing.
So... your thoughts? -- saberwyn 10:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinions on sources 

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thread_title: File:HMAS Sydney (AWM 301473) cropped.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: Since the Sydney didn't immediately sink, is there any explanation why the crew didn't abandon ship and evacuate the vessel before it sank? 69.125.134.86 (talk) 00:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that there were no survivors, no-one really knows. From what I've read, the likely explanation is that the severe damage to the ship's upper works during the battle is likely to have destroyed or damaged all of her lifeboats and life rafts, and the surviving crew members were trying to save the ship (most likely in appalling conditions due to the extensive damage and deaths of most of the ship's command team during the battle), when she broke up with little warning. We have no way of knowing whether some or all of the crew attempted to abandon ship due to the delays in commencing the search for survivors and the fairly remote location of the disaster - all we know is that no bodies were recovered. Nick-D (talk) 01:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless you can borrow a TARDIS, nobody will ever know exactly what happened. The 2009 inquiry estimates from the damage inflicted to the ship that around 70% of the personnel aboard died either during the battle, or immediately after from wounds and chemical inhalation. Very few (if any) of the ship's boats and rafts would have survived unscathed, and heavy seas and rapid deterioration of the cruiser's seakeeping ability would have made launching any of these incredibly difficult, making an attempt to limp the ship into port the best option. David Mearns believes that an evacuation was attempted after the bow snapped off without warning, but believes the ship would have fully submerged in two minutes at most, making such an attempt futile. Anyone who survived the sinking would have been, at best, relying on a lifebelt, which was only intended as a temporary flotation device: Wesley Olson thinks that they would have died from wounds, exposure, or drowning before the search commenced, and their bodies would not have floated back to the surface until after the search had concluded. Conversely, most of Kormorans personnel survived because they were able to stage a controlled evacuation over four hours, into undamaged and well-provisioned boats. More detail is at the battle article, in the section No Sydney survivors. -- saberwyn 04:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The most likely explanation for the lack of survivors is simply that no order to abandon ship was ever given, and that the few seamen who did decide to leave the ship, and who were close enough to an exit, without being ordered to do so did not survive their time in the water.  Most of the crew during an action would have been below decks or  behind armour, thus would have to make a deliberate effort to go up on deck in order to abandon the ship.  This they could not do without being given permission to leave their posts by an "abandon ship" order. The duty and responsibility for giving this order falls upon the Captain or the next highest-ranking surviving officer. It is also the duty and responsibility of this officer to ensure that this order is promulgated throughout all departments of the ship, either via the PA (if still working) or by runner(s).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.115.25 (talk) 08:40, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation for crew deaths? 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091003010558/http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/Sydney/Reportinx.htm to http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/sydney/Reportinx.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: hi everybody, i've just come across a booklet, H.M.A.S. Sydney (1971)  by John Collins, its a great read, providing further details on the ship, including the actions, some photos, and has a full listing of the hands lost. just wondering if this could be included in a "Further reading" section or "External links" (to its worldcat library listing) of the article?, thanks. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:44, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, definitely. Nick-D (talk) 06:01, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further reading? 

message: I have minimal understanding of Naval stuff but noticed these photos from the ANMM on Commons that could massively enrich the article if not just plonked in by a naive person like myself. Thoughts? PatHadley (talk) 20:07, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sailor's photos from [[Australian National Maritime Museum]] on Commons