Talk:Margaret Wilson (Scottish martyr)

message: The recent reorganisation of the article has split paragraphs so that they no longer have inline citation links: see WP:CITE for requirements to meet verification policy. Could those doing the splitting please add "ref name" templates to the end of the paragraphs showing the references they are based on, otherwise it may be necessary to revert to a fully cited version of the article. . dave souza, talk 07:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Paragraphs lacking citations

message: The following section has been added to the arts and literature section: 
The Kirk Sessions of Penningham and Kirkinner parishes in the course of their investigations recorded quite different versions of the events, a fact that led Mark Napier to seriously question the accuracy of these stories that displayed such glaring discrepancies.  Mark Napier, History Vindicated, a recapitulation of 'The Case for the Crown' and the Reviewers Reviewed in the Wigtown Martyrs. Edmondson and Douglas Edinburgh 1870. p.xxii Regarding the quality as evidence of these witness statements, Napier notes that the accounts are not actual witness statements but very general attestations summarised second hand within the sessions minutes, and regarding the existence of any possible personal statements regarding the events, "not a vestige of any such thing is to be found in the minutes". Mark Napier Op.Cit. 1870, p. xxxiv 
Firstly if we are to take Napier seriously, this should be in the discussion of the event itself. Secondly, Napier's is a book from 1870. It does not meet WP:RS requirements, though it may be notable as evidence of historical controversy. It's not useful as a sort-of defence of Tey, whose ridiculously over-rated book gets virtually every historical subject it touches on completely wrong. What she says is wrong quite irrespective of the facts of the case. If you can find modern sources that take Napier's argument seriously, then we should have a section on the dispute about the historicity of events - if there is one. 
Napier's book, by the way, is called "History Rescued", not "History Vindicated", which is the title of the book he is replying to. It can be accessed at Internet Archive . Paul B (talk) 10:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Added section

message: I have made some slight adjustments to the "Witness Statements" section, referenced to the minutes of the Kirk Sessions that are freely available at the National Archive of Scotland. I continue to be concerned that the text as it stood before made it look as if the two accounts contained in the minutes were fully consistent with one another and that they are actually quoting from accounts, when anyone consulting them (or even carefully reading Elisabeth Robertson's Herald article), will quickly notice that the summaries NEVER directly quote any witness statements. Anyone seriously concerned with the nature of these statements can now verify just how inaccurately this material is being presented within the "Witness Statements" section. 
The statement "McLachlan's daughter gave testimony about the drowning of her mother, and the records of the Penninghame Kirk Session include a statement from Wilson's brother Thomas" suggests that there are actual quotes from these witnesses within the Sessions minutes, whereas these attributions are derived directly from Elisabeth Robertson's Herald article which uses the misleading terms statement and testified . A reading of the minutes reveals that the witnesses referenced are not actually testifying before the Session, but that the writer of the account is himself claiming that they could give such information if asked. The confirmation of "fact" by the current article's sources is actually actually second hand accounts (Wodrow and Elisabeth Robertson's Herald article) that are basing their case on hearsay first put down twenty years after the events in a situation of religious conflict and threatened invasion. 
I can find no detailed academic work on these session records, despite the general academic work on this period that shows how indirect and thin the evidence for the Wigtown Drownings actually is, but the highly misleading nature of the affirmations in this section compels me to reference to manuscript material that may be consulted by anyone who is interested.  Rathlain (talk) 07:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penninghame and Kirkinner Session Records and the "Witness Statements." 

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thread_title:  External links modified