Talk:Sydney Grammar School

message: there are actually 180-190 boys per year in College Street. I'm a student there! Although there 140 boys in year six inluding both prep schools, about 10-15 of these would leave Grammar. The reason why there are more students in year 5 & 6 is because ten pupils enter in year 5 by acheiving good results in the entrance exam DaGizza Chat (c) 09:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know you are not probably not going to return to this discussion but for those who will read sometime in the future need to be taught the real facts. In the St. Ives Prep school, only ten or so people enter. It appears that you were referring to Edgecliff, where I have less knowledge about and I trust that you are correct. GizzaChat © 09:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Correct

message: I thought it was fairly obvious that the section wasn't neutral, but I'll explain:
* "Such achievement ranks Sydney Grammar as one of the best secondary schools on the continent." - Which ranking of schools would this be referring to? Wikipedia is not the place to evaluate how good a school is.
* "Sydney Grammar is the most academically proficient private school in NSW" - reference? I would've thought that would be James Ruse...
Those are the only two things I object to. So either the section needs a npov warning, or those two parts removed/edited. If you can provide a reference for the second part, then that's fine. I'm removing both, for now.
- James Foster 08:22, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality of the "Evaluation" section 

message: Firstly, Sydney Grammar School is rated the top ranking boys private school, and the second top ranking private school in Sydney by the SMH HSC 'rank' each year, year in year out. James Ruse is NOT a private school, it is public, but selective, likes Sydney Boys High. It isnt verifiable that it is the best school academically on the continent of Australia, there is no Australia-wide rank, for all we know, Launceston High, or Wagga Wagga Boys High School could be the best, but they arnt. This is Sydney, the most competitive city academically, with the most private schools, the best schools, and the smartest students. If Grammar does well here, it does well across the country. 
In Summary: 
SGS IS the most academically proficient private school in NSW according to the SMH HSC ranking published yearly, and since JRHS isnt a private school your example is void
SGS is among the best secondary schools on the continent because it does so well in Sydney, it must do so well nationally. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monkeytrumpets (talk • contribs) 13:20, 26 September 2005.
Bold text REPLY
I will identify who I am before I make any comments.  Firstly, I have just moved to NSW after teaching overseas for 5 and a half years, including teaching in an IB world school.  And I am an Australian teacher who has taught in Australia for approximately two and a half years.  And all have been excellent schools!
I must question where is the basis for stating that Sydney has the ¨smartest students¨.  Have you done an IQ test and compared the average IQ of Sydney students to the average IQ of students in every other capital city across the country?  And why limit it to capital cities.  Why not consider regional centres as well.  Generalisations are wonderful, but when you are talking about things like that - I really think that you should be referring to verifiable facts! 
I have a number of further questions to ask of the original contributor.
1.  "Sydney has the smartest students"?  
Is there a national education system that I was unaware of? lol.  I know that I have been away for awhile - but how can you make sweeping, generalizing statements like this?
I must apologize, but it is extremely difficult to judge whether or not the results in Sydney Private Schools are better than those say in Melbourne Private Schools or Brisbane Private Schools for that matter.  That comment comes across as a rather elitist remark - that really has no basis whatsoever.  So if your reference to the smartest students was based on comparing results across the country (assuming that the HSC system was a national system) then it would have validity. However, it was not based on that.  Could you please tell me how you reached that conclusion.  Did you do a nationwide study or has one been conducted that I am not aware of?  By the way, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the statement, just that it is one without basis.  Sweeping statements are wonderful to make, but verifiable data is what really counts!  
2.  "Sydney has the best schools".
I am not saying that they do or don't.  However, what makes an exceptional school?  It is obvious that the author above is talking about the best overall average HSC results in the Sydney area.  That is wonderful.  
Firstly, I am imagining that Sydney Grammar is a selective school.  How can you possibly compare a selective school where academic merit is a very important part of the selection process to a non-selective school.  I am sure that they get the pick of the best and brightest minds in Sydney.  I sure hope that they get the best HSC results.  It would not make sense if they didn't! Yes, I am aware that people are admitted for other reasons (I am guessing) like exceptional musical talent or exceptional sporting prowess etc.  But on the whole, I am sure that academic talent is one of the key factors why most students are accepted.  Please tell me if I am wrong.  
Anyways, let me move on from discussing particular schools.  That is besides the point as far as I am concerned.   
Obviously - the original comments were made on the assumption that HSC results can tell you how good a school is!  I believe that an excellent school has a lot more to do with producing wonderful, honest, caring individuals who are going to make a difference to the world (and that academics is not the only thing - although an important part).  I quite frankly would rather employ a student graduating from University whose grades were not quite as good, but was obviously intelligent - and was a well-rounded individual! 
Now this comment is slightly off-topic, but I am not going to apologize for it.  It relates to education and that is the most important thing.  Firstly, I believe that the Australian Education system needs to be nationalised.  It is about time!  So that there is greater consistency in education standards throughout the country. 
Whether or not it is the HSC system, the VCE system or whatever the system.  I personally would state (by the way - I studied in Queensland - and would have to say that I believe that the HSC system is better - but that is just a personal opinion)that the International Bacclaureate Program is the way of the future.  This is not a biased perspective, as I have no reason whatsoever to promote the IB Program - have just seen education in many different systems including the public, private and international education systems in a number of countries - and believe that the IB Program is the best one around for 2 important reasons (there are others, but these are the most important ones):-
1.  The IB Program is aimed at creating a well-rounded individual, not just an academically strong individual.  Community Service is an important part of the IB Diploma.  There is a lot more to be said, but I will leave it there. 
2.  The IB Program is a truly international program and provides a huge range of subject offerings.  It also would allow for students to graduate from Australian High Schools with a more global perspective.  I believe that this is extremely important if Australia is to continue its strong growth as a nation.  We can no longer be as inward-looking as we are in many ways.  I have just come back from overseas - am an Australian - and have experienced it first-hand applying for jobs in this country.  I have been quite frankly shocked at the close-minded view of many employers in Sydney.  And who you know is just as important as what you know many times.  I am not just talking about Sydney and this is actually referring to a career outside of education.  I would suggest that the majority of them were educated in Australia (however, that is just a well-educated guess). The interviewers who were from overseas were much more open-minded.
And finally, the IB Program would allow students to study in the country of their choice without any difficulties regarding conversions of grades etc.  They could choose to study at Yale, Harvard, Oxford, Timbuktu, wherever.  And the majority of quality universities in the world understand what a particular IB grade means.  So that means that you no longer have to limit yourself to undergraduate study in Australia.  Why not study overseas / if that interests you - and you/your parents have the funds (unforunately - study in many parts of the world is prohibitively expensive).  The best University in Peru costs $11,000 U.S.D. per year.  And Peru is a third world country.  That is a scary though.
That is all.  Hope that has been food for thought.  Sorry for digressing from the Sydney Grammar School line of thought - but I wanted to address several of the statements made - and wanted to add some related ideas while I was taking the time to make this post.  Cheers to making the Australian Education system even better!!!!  By the way, I think that we should be proud of the Australian Education System, it is a strong one.  However, there is still room for a great deal of improvement!!!!  Cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.180.204 (talk • contribs) 10:23, 18 February 2006.
Edited the "Today" section because of misinformation and concerns about neutrality. SGS isn't second to JRAHS in HSC performance, but roughly in the top 5 or 10 schools in the state. JRAHS is clearly number 1.Recurring dreams 02:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re:Neutrality of the "Evaluation" section 

message: Can someone get a good copy of the school crest, and some good photos of the school and put them up, that'd make the article look a lot better, especially with a crest in the info box. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:Monkeytrumpets
|Monkeytrumpets
]] ([[User talk:Monkeytrumpets
|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Monkeytrumpets
|contribs]]) 11:34, 28 September 2005.
I downloaded a newsletter from the Grammar Website and took a printscreen of the logo. It's now up and running. I'm not too experienced with all the formatting but it seems to look fine the way I've done it anyway. Enjoy. mdmanser 23:43, 21 October 2005 (AEST)
If someone could get some photos from the recent book, "Inside Sydney Grammar School", onto the website, that would be really good. andrew rickert 08:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crest + Photos 

message: Just a little note to everyone to suggest that the SGS page not become cluttered with less important information.  The University Chancellors, for example.  In Australia, Chancellor is an essentially ceremonial role.  Vice-Chancellor is the person actually in charge of the University.  Also, are we certain that all the people in the 'Notable Alumni' section are actually significant and important people?  I will assume that they are, but ask people to consider the issue.(attard)23:04, 1 January 2006 
*The list of extra-curricular clubs is also becoming a spot for every man and his dog to add a name. Someone should go through and keep only the most notable clubs (eg. historical Cadets programs, strong chess team). Harro5 21:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not necessarily correct. All information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable. So the criterion for inclusion is whether there is an independent source that we can point to that says that these clubs exist. enochlau (talk) 08:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes it is - if u go through the list of clubs i can tell u the name of a person in each.
All of the clubs are verifiable. And while I'm here, can I just point out to 'attard' that university hierarchies are a fair bit more complicated than they seem to think.Snell 12:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Levels of Importance 

message: To read or take part in this discussion, please see the comments here. Harro5 06:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging [[J. T. Vallance]] article here 

message: This section was extremely POV. I've bolded the POV stuff below, and italicised stuff with no references to verify claims (including unnamed people). 
:Sydney Grammar is the most academically proficient private school in NSW, let alone of the GPS schools, as measured by consistent performance in the Higher School Certificate.
:Supporters of the school would suggest that it provides a truly intellectual grounding. Detractors of the school however, would argue that it provides a "spoon-fed" education without true independence of thought, and that its excellent examination results are merely a reflection of the extraordinary quality of the intake. Supporters would respond that this issue is lessening with time under the current Headmaster, J.T. Vallance. Dr. Vallance claims that the aim of the School is not exclusively to achieve high academic results in the HSC, but to prepare students for life by giving them a "liberal, humane, pre-vocational education", and that the diversity of the School's music, sport and extra-curricular programme is a testament to this philosophy.
:Irrespective of which camp is correct, there can be little doubt that Sydney Grammar is both the most extreme and the most exceptional example of its type of school in Australia.
This section should not be re-added without references, a re-write and prior discussion on the talk page. Harro5 23:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evaluation section 

message: I wouldnt mind knowing who writes the page about Grammar. Are you a student or a teacher? I know you're not some random because there's pictures from within the school in the entry.
BTW I'm a student there in Yr10 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.225.88.25 (talk • contribs) 08:08, 14 February 2006.
:Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, with hundreds of contributors. As for this article, it seems User:Monkeytrumpets took the photo, and it's also on this site according to the image description page. Harro5 08:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Author 

message: Might I suggest using the more standard Template:Infobox Aust school box for this article? Harro5 20:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me. GizzaChat © 09:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. The current secondary school infobox is used standardly across GPS, CAS and ISA schools and therefore should stay. It is the most comprehensive infobox there is as per below, while the Aust school infobox is quite limited in its capacities and not very streamlined. Cheers, Jpeob 00:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: Would it be better to list the activities? That way it will look neater and there is more space to add further activities. GizzaChat © 11:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extra curricular list? 

message: I agree it's one of the better school articles in wikipedia but still needs work. Article needs more refrences and the 3 extrenal links refrences scattered though out thw need to be fixed to footnote form per WP:CITE. I'm sure the article can be expanded a little more also, like the History section stops in the 1860s. Also the lists need to be converted to prose style. Thanks --Jaranda wat's sup 17:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed GA

message: This infobox is the most suitable for the school. I'll do it myself when I have time but anyone bold enough to do it sooner than me is of course allowed to. GizzaChat © 10:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with the proposed use of the Infobox Aust school private on Sydney Grammar School and , indeed, elsewhere. The Secondary school infobox is used standardly across the board for GPS, CAS and ISA schools as the best infobox for the respective - and indeed, all - schools. Purely because the Aust school private infobox is there does not mean that it is the best one to use for private schools: the current "Affiliations" line is better than "denomination"; "slogan" is very crass; "key people" rendered inspecific when compared to the wide options in the secondary school infobox such as "Headmaster", "Principal" and "rector"; "num_employ" is the same as "faculty" in the SSI; "revenue" is irrelevant; "products" crass and unspecific yet again (of course the products are students!); while all the rest of the lines are in the Secondary school infobox.
Cheers, Jpeob 00:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template:Infobox Aust school private 

message: These four schools are FAs. They are good starting points for the Grammar article.
*Caulfield Grammar School (Australian)
*Hopkins School
*Plano Senior High School
*Stuyvesant High School
GizzaChat © 23:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  School [[WP:FA|Feature articles]] 

message: This article states that At $20,826 per annum (for Forms I - VI, non-boarding ), the tuition fees are the highest of any secondary day school in the country, however, Haileybury, Melbourne states that it has tuition fees ranging between $16,000 and $21,000 (Prep to Year 12) per year for day students.. are there sources to back up the claim that SGS has the highest annual non-boarding student fees in Australia?Loopla 06:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the highest can be used until a reliable reference is found. GizzaChat © 06:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this article by the SMH, "Annual fees for senior students this year (2007) will be as high as $21,117 at Cranbrook, $20,967 at Kambala, $20,913 at King's and $20,826 at Sydney Grammar". Therefore, One of the highest, rather than the highest should definately be used in this article. Loopla 04:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fees 

message: Sydney Grammar School should not be confused with Sydney Church of England Grammar School. 
I really do not see the point of this statement in the lead. I don't think the two are commonly mixed up, and no other schools including the Sydney Church of England Grammar School have such a qualifying statement in their lead. Will remove. Recurring dreams 08:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and thank you for removing the statement. Adding the statement may ironically confuse the reader even more! Have a nice day. GizzaChat © 10:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sydney Church of England Grammar School 

message: (Top/Start) I have given this article a rating of Top Importance and start class. It is nearly a B-class, it just needs some tidying up, and more references. Top importance given the extensive alumni, the history of the school, and its place in Australian education. Twenty Years 05:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP Schools Assessment 

message: As per Selective school (New South Wales), even though SGS may select students based on academic ability, it is not a selective school, which in NSW is restricted to government schools to which entry is achieved via the selective schools test. 124.184.116.235 (talk) 09:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The school requires students to gain over a certain mark in an entrance exam before they are considered for admission (enrolment details are here). I shall change it to Selective school rather than Selective school (New South Wales) if it helps. The New South Wales article is clearly not broad enough (or incorrectly titled) and only covers government selective schools, when there is clearly atleast one independent selective school in the state. Loopla (talk) 10:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Not Selective School

message: In 2007, the headmaster announced the construction of a new auditorium at the College Street Campus. Perhaps this should be given a mention?Thevas (talk) 10:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auditorium 

message: I'm not sure about the (old) Palladium building being a postal sorting office - it may have been, but it used to be a roller skating rink (whence the name), with the floorboards being laid such that their long edge was always in the direction one traversed the room (i.e., they formed an ellipse).  When the classrooms were put in this led to some of the classrooms having floorboards that were not in line with the classroom walls.  This building was replaced in the mid-seventies by the New Palladium building, with the gym on the top floor (which used to get unbearably hot, even in winter) and the library on the ground floor (which flooded the first time there was major rain, due to the courtyard outside having inadequate drainage).  As I recall, there was also a brothel visible from the windows of some of the classrooms in the new Palladium, on Yurong St..... we weren't allowed to go out there, or even to Beppi's :-(
Incywebb (talk) 07:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palladium 

message: Okay the article states that we offer Standard English, when we do no such thing.  Some fob included Standard English in the list of subjects offered and I am removing it now.....no-one was offered to do anything other than English Advanced for this year, and that's how it has worked for many years.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.89.151 (talk) 10:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subjects Offered 

message: This page has been vandalised. Please change
the test in Paragraph two from
liberal, inhumane, pre-vocational pedagagy
to
liberal, humane, pre-vocational education. 
Many Thanks
Sydney Grammar School IT department
See Sydney Grammars Web Page, Headmasters Address at http://www.sydgram.nsw.edu.au/CollegeSt/home.html
Sydgramhelpdesk (talk) 00:34, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request from Sydgramhelpdesk, 11 June 2010 

message: This article is one of a  number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue   are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
The following request appears on that page:
Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes"  would be appreciated.
Please update the Queue page as appropriate.
Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially
Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:14, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Pending changes

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: A group of SGS students are getting media attention for their preparation of the medication pyrimethamine, as described in the following article:   Not sure whether it is worth including in some way, but here it is if anyone wants to make use of it.  EdChem (talk) 02:31, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pyrimethamine 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello.
I know that many of you editors are in some way related to this school, perhaps as current or former students, and want to tell everyone how great this school is. Wikipedia is not the place to do that. One of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia is to write with a Neutral Point of View (see WP:NPOV) and it doesn't do this school and favours when this page sounds like a giant advertisement. Please also avoid academic boosterism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_academic_boosterism).
As such, headings such as "Australia's Top Music School" are completely inappropriate. Please don't do this. Harry585 (talk) 12:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Also heaps of primary sources that don't directly verify source Bumbubookworm (talk) 18:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic Boosterism violates NPOV