Talk:Middle Francia

message: The result of the move request was no consensus. Simply, a consensus could not be reached amongst the six editors who participated in the discussion, who were split half-and-half between supporting and opposing the merge proposal. Thus, the article remains as it is for the moment. Laurinavicius (talk) 01:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no move request. Srnec (talk) 04:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case, the terms "move request" and "merge proposal" essentially mean the same thing. My regards, Laurinavicius (talk) 00:26, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Sigh, here goes .... I oppose the merging of Middle Francia into Lotharingia.
The Empire of Francia was partitioned via the Treaty of Verdun (843) into three sister allied Kingdoms,
:Kingdom of West Francia (i.e., most of France)
:Kingdom of Middle Francia (i.e., Netherlands, Eastern Belgium, thin-strip along the Rhine, Northern Italy)
:Kingdom of East Francia (i.e., most of Germany)
Now Lotharingia consisted only of a portion of Kingdom of Middle Francia namely,
:Netherlands,
:Eastern Belgium,
:thin-strip along the Rhine
Hence, the merging of the larger-whole Kingdom of Middle Francia into the smaller-subdivision of Lotharingia is asinine, and frankly stupid.
ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 04:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh, that is the exact same way that I felt previously. However, there is one piece of crucial information that makes your line of argument incorrect: Lotharingia technically did not exist under the rule of Middle Francia. Lotharingia was "born of the tripartite division in 855 of the kingdom of Middle Francia", as stated in the its article. As Srnec put it, the history of Middle Francia "history is no more than the biography of Lothair I after 843". Thus, the information on this page, which is entirely unsourced, should be merged/re-directed into Lotharingia or Lothair I, both of which have sources and citations for this information. My regards, Laurinavicius (talk) 07:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

text: Yes, the Frankish Empire was divided into three separate sub-divisions by the Treaty of Verdun. That much is true. However, Lothair I, who ruled Middle Francia, created, on his deathbed, the  Treaty of Prüm. This treaty divided the realm into three partitions for each of Lothair's sons. The eldest, Louis II, was given Italy and the Imperial Frankish crown. The youngest, Charles, received Provence. The middle son, Lothair II, received the lands north of Provence. Now, just like Middle Francia, Lothair's new domain lacked both an ethnic and a linguistic unity. Because of this, contemporaries were unsure of how to name this new kingdom, and so, ultimately named it regnum quondam Lotharii or Lotharii regnum, which means "kingomd [once] Lothair's" (a reference to Lothair I). Also, Lotharingia was certainly a state! It was its own independent kingdom from 855-925, then a duchy and a state of the Holy Roman Empire from 925 to 1737, when it was ceded by the HRE to France after the War of the Polish Succession. My regards, Laurinavicius (talk) 01:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: AVD's intervention

message: I oppose merging. A short-lived Kingdom is still a Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 14:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a rule that all kingdoms, no matter how ephemeral, must have articles of their own? Remember, this is the early Middle Ages. It is hard to distinguish the kingdom from the king at times. Srnec (talk) 20:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Struck comments

message: Here , a "quick-and-dirty" Google Books search,  Please note that Middle Francia comes up at lot eh.  Next, here is a damn map ok.  This map shows West Francia, Middle Francia, and East Francia.  There ... happy now?  ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 16:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure how two map catalogues constitute a reference.  The map you have now referenced several times (and the additional one above) supports the merger as far as I can see, so do some of the Google Book references.  One for examples states that it as a precursor of Lotharingia which supports the text in that article, and would again support the merger.  However there may be a case for renaming any merged article --Snowded TALK  05:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Snowded you are not the sole Judge of was constitutes a reference.  William Robert Shepherd is an authority on Historical Cartography.  His maps support the existance of Francia (pre A.D. 843), and the existance of West Francia, Middle Francia, and East Francia (post A.D. 843).  Now, Middle Francia existed from  A.D. 843-855 and its subsequent fragmentation produced Friesland, Lotharingia, Burgundy, and Lombardy (i.e., Northern Italy).  In short, Middle Francia has more than passed the threshold for its own article, and neither you, nor Srnec have made any rationale case as to why Middle Francia can not at least have its own stub-of-an-article.  Snowded, I am tried of talking to you ... put-up, or shut-up.  ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 06:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just trying to show you by example how Wikipedia editors as asked to format talk pages ArmChair.  Your previous failure to comply with those was one of the reasons behind you last block. I'll leave the formatting of your list, but have indented your above paragraph per guidlines.  I suggest you delete the "mental-illness" comment as well, that sort of language has got many an editor blocked.  You really need to pay attention to requests for sources.  So far you have produced maps that do not even show "Middle Francia" but do show Lotharingia.  You have referenced a google list that mentions the name in several cases, but that is very ambiguous. You also seem to be using the maps as original research which is not allowed on Wikipedia.  As I pointed out above one of them states that it developed into Lotharingia which would support the merger proposal.  From what I can see so far it would be sufficient to describe the events of the Treaty of Verdun and then use the history of Lotharingia, Bergundy etc. where appropriate.  There may be a case for a stub but you haven't made it yet. --Snowded TALK  07:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

text: Currently "Middle Francia" is boldened in the lead of Lotharingia, which I think is sufficient. —Srnec (talk) 06:06, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Middle Francia]] references

message: Its time we sorted this.  How about this:
Middle Francia was a short lived entity formed as a result of the Treaty of Verdun as the Middle inheritance (ref.  Mitchell) following the collapse of the Carolingian Empire .  The area north of Alps became known as Lotharingia and the "Lotharingian axis (ref to New Cambridge Medieval History) is sometimes seen as a synonym for  Middle Francia.
No info box, no piplinks for other articles.  Possible reference to related articles to help navigation.  Smec,  you seem to have the best handle on referenced material and the weather is keeping me away from the University Library.  Can you sharpen it up?   Given some of the nonsense above I am happy to support a merge as well as this compromise  Given that the only citations say that the two terms are used interchangeably then any a reference to a review by other editors would probably support a merge--Snowded TALK  20:24, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I can live with a simple navigational stub. I will do something about this hopefully later today and then we can see if everybody else can live with the result. —Srnec (talk) 20:42, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks --Snowded TALK  20:47, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stub 

message: In order to objectively resolve the past issue of Middle Francia as a political entity, I propose the following list for all involved editors to post their research on Lothair I's governmental relationship with his agglomeration of land as defined by the 843 Treaty of Verdun. Please keep evidence concise in order to ensure an effective resolution.
1. Areas Requiring Research
*Number and extent of royal tours undertaken by Lothair I prior to 847.
2. Cited Information
*In 847, Lothair I, with Charles the Bald and Louis the German met at Meerssen, and sent an embassy to the Danish king requesting a cessation of his raids on Frankish land. (Reuter, T. 1985 Transactions of the Royal Historical Society. London: Royal Historical Society. Fifth Series, Vol. 35, p.80) Significance: Lothair I had international political relations, and potentially a military (or the more common system of war bands).
*By 800, the residual system of Roman civitates had been entirely replaced by smaller counties, a significant influence in the partitions established by the Treaty of Verdun. (O'Brien, P. 2010 Atlas of World History. New York: Oxford University Press. p.75) Significance: A system of centralized rule would have been non-extant without the use of conventional royal tours, or a reasonable facsimile of such.
*Nobility were established in individual farming communities to integrate newly conquered Frankish lands. (Moreland, J. 1992 Integration and Social Reproduction in the Carolingian Empire. Oxford: Taylor & Francis, Ltd. Vol. 23, No. 3, p.326) Significance: Small subdivisions of land in the Middle Francia region could operate effectively without superior control.
*Mints throughout Middle Francia were non-standardized, and had extremely small outputs of coins. A breakdown in circulation occurred between Italy and the north. Hoards of West Frankish coins existed throughout middle Francia.  (Coupland, S. 2007 "Carolingian Coinage and the Vikings." Aldershot: Variorum Collected Study Series. p.191-193) Significance: Lothair exercised little economic control over Middle Francia, and the people living there traded using the currency of, and thus with the people of, West Francia.
*In 847, Lothair I visited Rome following a major Muslim 846 raid, which was his last visit south of the Alps. (Costambeys, M. 2011 "The Carolingian World." Cambridge:Cambridge University Press. p.391) Significance: No direct political control would have been exerted on the southern areas, suggesting its de facto independence from Middle Francia following 847.
*In 844, Lothair I ceded the Kingdom of Italy to his son Louis II, who ruled it as nominally independent. (Riché, P. 1993 "The Carolingians" Philadelphia: Pennsylvania University Press. p.179) Significance: In conjunction with the circulation breakdown between the north and Italy, implies that Middle Francia's rule was never, in practice, extended to Italy.
Xuxalliope (talk) 12:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Research on the Political Status of Middle Francia 

message: Srnec, I think you are under the mistaken impression that use of  presupposes that the article is about a "former country" according to some strict or narrow definition.
This is not so. "infobox former country" is just the name of the template, the term is not displayed anywhere on the page if it is transcluded. 
There were no "countries" in the modern sense in the medieval period to begin with, but there would be no point in creating an identical template called "medieval political entity" just to satisfy people obsessing over the correct nomenclature  in the name of  transcluded templates.
There is nothing wrong with this revision other than the coins shown in the "flag" slots. 
What is transcluded by the template, unfortunately, is the "states and terrories" category, often leading to redlinks, but not in this case. I seriously doubt that you will be able to dispute that Middle Francia happened to be a "state or territory". --dab (𒁳) 13:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Middle Francia was definitely a territory, but I'm not sure it was a state. The kingdom was defined at Verdun in 843, but the next year Lothair gave Italy to his son. If Middle Francia is a modern scholarly construct—and I don't believe the term Francia media is contemporary—then it can refer to Lotharingia alone as much as to all of Lothair's realm. For this reason I argued above that the two pages should be merged. "Middle Francia" is really just the first phase in the history of Lotharingia, when it was attached to Burgundy, Provence and Italy. Lothair is perhaps under-studied compared to his brothers and I am not aware that he treated his entire realm as a unity: it was more a personal union of territories that had no time to develop into a more unified monarchy (unlike East and West Francia). Srnec (talk) 14:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: "infobox" misunderstanding

message: This article provides 3 references. Two mention the subject, however they do not seem to support the depth of this article. So I've tagged it as requiring footnotes, requiring more sources, and also as possibly containing original research. —siroχo 08:30, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tagged