Talk:Basques/Archive 4

message: "Mr Kurlansky seems to ignore that there is an autonomous Basque government, comprising its own parliament, police, education and fiscal systems. Nearly one thousand people have perished as a result of ETA's terrorist actions. Both the Spanish and the regional Basque government are united in the fight against the threat that ETA poses to our society and democracy."
Carlos Miranda, Ambassador of Spain, published response in the Guardian —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lotsofissues (talk • contribs) 25 Nov 2005. 
:That is, Miranda was responding to the cited article Can you trust Wikipedia?. A precise citation for Miranda's remarks would be welcome. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine. But if he (Miranda) is going to be quoted here, the source of his remarks should be cited. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Googled it in five seconds flat:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1649174,00.html Letters:Basques and Spain Guardian Unlimited, Special reports: Spain. Thursday November 24, 2005. Accessed 2006-09-10
--Ling.Nut 01:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This article cited

message: I add Nafarroa o Navarra in the article, because it´s one of the 7 provinces. And how 3600000  basque people are living in Argentina.--Ikertxo
* Do you have some citation for this very large number newly added to the article? Demographics of Argentina does not even contain the word "Basque".-- Jmabel | Talk 05:34, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
*In this article says 3.7 million: http://www.geocities.com/apellidos_vascos/na2005.htm In this article around 6% of population: http://www.euskonews.com/0214zbk/kosmo21402.html This basque-argentinan web site says 10% of argentinan population has basque origins: http://www.juandegaray.org.ar/fvajg/portadas/genealogia there is another website where you could find how 3.6 million argentinan has basque origin, but I cannot find that :(. Now, I´m trying to find how many basque are in Australia, Philippins and Chile. I know that many basque people went to australia in 70´s-80´s and how there is a big basque community in chile too. --Ikertxo 07:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I add some new information 

message: I think it should be great idea to list popular basque people on the history, like Lope de Aguirre, Simón de Bolivar, Elcano...Lots of them did something interesting for the world.--Ikertxo 09:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: List of Basques --Error 20:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing popularities 

message: I add a link for that Book in amazon: "The Basque History of the World" by Mark Kurlansky . One of the Best Book I have never read about Basque Country. And made by a foreigner. So, its neutrality must be considered.--Ikertxo 09:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia should not be used as an Amazon advert. The proper and neutral way is inserting the ISBN, that magically links into a page for searches. Besides, not everybody thinks Kurlansky is so great. I personally disagreed with something that I cannot remember when I browsed it. --Error 19:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I later saw that it is already in References. --Error 20:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Links 

message: Hi there, I've deleted a sentence about racism in todays nationalism. It's rubbish. Honestly. It's bad enought to say the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) was racist in it's origins, but pretending that it still is today is plain silly. Someone has said before me that the ideas of the founder of the PNV were quite common at the time, beign the political situation of the USA or the very queen of Spain (Isabel II), great examples of it. I won't delete that sentence because I would be accused of sectarism or perverting the wikipedia (even though there are no mentions to all the racist francoist crap in the article about Franco, or the concentration camps of Spain, the last of wich closed in 1974 in Miranda de Ebro in the article about the history of Spain). But I can't take bullshit like saying that todays basque nationalists are racist (or nazionalist nerds as some arse said above -it's not like there's a lot more to expect from some people, anyway-). I've also added that TAU Baskonia, Vitoria's basketball team is one of the biggest clubs in Europe, not just in Spain, with two european championships, and 3 second positions (yap, I do support them ;) ), and the name of the world's best mountaneer: Juanito Oiarzabal. Hope this is all fine (I forgot to check the discussion before making the changes, sorry about that, but they're pretty logical changes so it should be fine). Apart from those things and a couple more (like calling the three historical territories -Álava, Vizcaya, and Guipúzcoa- provinces, is a common mistake, but still a mistake), I reckon is a quite accurate description and an overall good article, much better than the spanish version where the censor most spaniards have inside has made it impossible to produce an average text. Cheers,
Mikel
OK, again, someone restored the absurd racism comment with a link to an article (in spanish) in wich a writer (in what can only be taken as a joke) takes the autochthonous species protection law and tries to make it look racist, he even dared to say my edit was vandalism without reading the discussion page (now that is vandalism). It was a very big thing in Spain when it happened (whenever something sounds like a good excuse to attack basque nationalism, the spanish media make a big thing of it there). Absolutely all the countries in the world have indigenous species protection laws (in Australia for example are very strict in this matter), and Spain itself has laws to protect the "toro de lidia" (or "bullfight bull", completely useless for anything else), the iberian Linx ("Lince ibérico"), the boar, the brown bear ("jabalí" and "oso pardo"), and so on. This was a great example of the kind of crap basque nationalists have to go through: lies, manipulation, insults, disrespect, constant attacks in the media... I leave a link to the article here in the discussion for everyone to see the extent of the stupidity of some people and the abhorrent manipulation of everything in this demonization process (the problem is most spanish people love to believe this lies, if all this campaigns were directed against any other ethnic minority - let's say of a different faith or colour- things would be treated differently and no one would be so ambiguous about this ruthless discrimination).
Well, I acknowledge that the link was not totally relevant. Therefore I will remove it myself. In the menatime, I am trying to find a news item in English, quoting Xabier Arzallus' —PNV's strongman back in the nineties— comments on immigration, saying things such as: "Any immigrant who does not want to take up 'Basque Nationality' will be treated as German tourists in Majorca [...] It is because those same immigrants that Euskal Herria is not independent yet". Any of the books written by Basque historian (former poli-mili)) Jon Juaristi would be a good reference point, as he has been very critic of the racialist current of Basque nationalism Asterion 15:16, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Todays nationalism 

message: From the lead sentence:
It is important to note that through history, some people have been identified as Basque people who may or may not have spoken the Basque language. 
Confusing and almost vacuous: Why, and according to whom, is it "important". Who are the "some people" alluded to? Descendants of Basques in the Americas who have assimilated? So what: the same is true of any other ethnicity. Something else? Then say so, or this is vacuous. "…may or may not…"? Can we be more vague? Unless someone clarifies this in the next 24 hours, I will feel free to remove it. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing sentence in lead paragraph 

message: :There is a common joke in saying that Basques are not racist, since they are not a different race; they say they are a different specie.
I don't think it is so "common" a joke. 
It also does not seem very relevant nor very funny.
I decided to remove it.
--Error 00:36, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Common" joke

message: 3.Wikipedia article especificaly mentions Navarra as part of the Basque country in its first parragraph. I don´t know which version of wikipedia did Mr Kurlansky read. It is true, non the less that basque nationalist are minority with far less votes in Navarra than in the other basque provinces. (excepting the french provinces where they are almost non existent). But again this is not for wikipedia to comment.
:I have ammended it. For a Navarrese being Basque is more feeling Basque than "being" unlike among three-provincers. I have told elsewhere about a Navarrese saying "I am not Basque but my father was" linking it to the lost of the Basque language. --Error 01:20, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see also: Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28news%29#Guardian_article --bodnotbod 22:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: On the other hand, the claims the expert makes are either verifiable or not, and doesn't claiming that persecution of Basques ended when Franco died also break NPOV if there's significant claims the persecution continued? GhostGirl 00:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Navarre

message: We could read that sentence in the article: "Most Basques are practicing Roman Catholics." 
I´d like to emphasize certain points. Although It was very religious, currently it is not. 
I think it must be mentioned and this section must be corrected.
In this case, Basque situation is not very different in comparisson with Spain. Statistics say only 25,5% of population is self-considered christian, 22% catholic, 26 % between atheists, agnostics or pseudoagnostics...and the rest choosed another options...So.. This section is wrong. 
Religion in Spain(and other countries): http://www.religionstatistics.net/norelesp.htm 
--Ikertxo 10:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Religion at the present time" 

message: I am relatively new to wikipedia, so my excuses if this is some kind of "newbe" comment:
I don't understand the focus of this article very well: it claims to be about the Basque people - I suppose from an ethnologic, cultural or demographic point of view - but then goes on and on about history of the basque country, Spain, and others. Doesn't there exist a separate "history of the basque country" or "basque country" article? If so, what is the purpose of this one? My honest impression is that the dupplication of content serves no informative purpose at all; even more so when (in my opinion), much of this article is written in a style more similar to an op-ed than to an encyclopædia.
M --129.104.247.2 20:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focus of this article 

message: Is there any material remaining to be merged here from Basque diaspora? If it has all been merged, we should turn that into a redirect. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Still waiting for an answer on that. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the articles should be merged, since Basque people is, as it is, a large article. --Vizcarra 01:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basque diaspora 

message: I think the new set of four images in the infobox look very sloppy; also, each should have "alt" text to indicate of whom it is an image. And Che Guevara was, at most, partly Basque, since he also had Irish ancestry. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ain't no sisters in here! I checked the women articles in List of Basques and we only have pics of Catalina de Erauso, Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz and Eva Duarte de Perón. Perhaps we could exchange one Argentinian for another, though the pics don't merge very well. Other iconic Basque women would be Cristina Saralegui, Dolores Ibárruri or Máxima Zorreguieta, but they have less universal fame. --Error 03:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I think Sor Juana would be a fine choice. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I put Sor Juana instead of Ramón y Cajal (barely Basque) and substituted Zumalacárregui with Ignatius, that seems more recognizable. --Error 03:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Juanita is cool but she's Mexican. It may be the same case as with Che Guevara and Simon Bolivar: they have Basque ancestry but are Americans, not Basques. They probably never identified themselves as such. What about Joanna III of Navarre? There were several Basque queens but this one is the only one with a wikiportrait (that I know of). --Sugaar 20:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, Daguerre, though the surname is obviously Basque, was French born in Paris. I suggest to replace him for maybe the most important Basque in World history: Juan Sebastián Elcano (Elkano), the first one to sail around the world. --Sugaar 20:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image in infobox

message: I have removed the following
: However, some people whose family was basque, found them treated as foriegners when returned to the basque country 
It is too unconcrete and disconnected from the rest of the section.
--Error 00:56, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ununderstandable sentence

message: Reference Converter is still being tested. Apologies for accidental deletion. --Asterion 04:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry 

message: Should he be one of the faces of "Basque people"? He was only partially Basque in heritage. --Grocer 02:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Che Guevara 

message: I haven't been keeping up on all the changes to this article, but I note that with no citation given the 1993 population estimate for Basques in France was dropped from 730,000 to 250,000 and the number of French-speaking monoglots from 654,000 to 150,000. Since no source was given for any of these numbers, there is little I can do other than to point out the discrepancy. - Jmabel | Talk 00:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: What is the basis for capitalizing the Spanish vascos and vascongados. I see that an explicit note not to do so has been removed. I am unaware of any case where Spanish-language orthography capitalizes the name of a nationality or ethnicity. - Jmabel | Talk 00:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Capitalization

message: "…the Basques lost their lifestyle, which was dependent on trade with the Roman Empire." "Lifestyle", a word of very recent origin, seems to me to be very out of place here. I'd choose "way of life". - Jmabel | Talk 00:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Lifestyle"

message: In general, over the last three weeks or so, there have been massive changes to the article, with almost no citations provided. - Jmabel | Talk 00:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Massive edits, no citations

message: Was Daguerre basque? Wikipedia says he was born near Paris...has Euskal Herria grown northwards lately?
:Agirre is a Basque surname. One'd have to track his ancestry. --Error 03:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He wasn't Basque as far as I know, no more than Che Guevara (he seemingly had Basque ancestry). --Sugaar 16:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daguerre?