Talk:Babylonian captivity

message: This article is probably the least structured, least coherent page that I have ever read on Wikipedia.--PeadarMaguidhir 19:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style 

message: I am a bit confused...is this article stating all this as fact, or is it mearly relaying STORIES told by religious texts??
I'm unfamiliar with said texts which is why i'm asking if this is fact or disputed???--Donnie from the mean streets of Boston, KY 20:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy says that Wikipedia never reports "facts". It only reports the opinions of sources considered reliable by different points of view. These sources sometimes disagree. Wikipedia routinely reports what religious texts say about religiously significant events. It also reports historians' and other views. It identifies which source says what. You can choose for yourself which view to believe. --Shirahadasha 20:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So the title of the opening section should be changed to "Scriptural Account" then?Rykalski 15:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The opening section reports alternative historical takes on the matter as well as summarising the Bible texts, so I don't think "Scriptural account" is a fair heading. Maybe the paragraph should disentangle more clearly the material that is based on the Bible and that which is not, giving sources for the latter.  Anyway, as it's not all scriptural, I've reverted the heading for now, but further discussion is welcome here. - Fayenatic london (talk) 15:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At the moment, this is not true. The only alternative historical take is a remark on the decree. Apart from that, this article is straight Bible history with a mainly one-sided view. --Depaderico (talk) 03:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am actually in the process of trying to fix that right now, it will take me some time!Smeat75 (talk) 04:34, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

text: 'Historical Account' implies a belief in the actuality of these events which is non-npov.  To report that these events are recorded in the holy texts of the Jews & Christians is not to demonstrate their historicity.  All text contain statements which are of the text only and not of the wider world.  Disentangling those textual statements from those statements about the wider world contained in a text is extremely difficult especially when the texts in question have so little context.  The first section needs a new title.  (hope I got the '~'s right this time).Rykalski 19:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I took 'Historical Account' to mean that it is based on the evidence of ancient documents and other historical evidence.  Any such evidence (consider the writings of, say, :Geoffrey of Monmouth)  may need to be weighed.  In this case, is there good reason for discarding the scriptural account?  Like much of the Bible, it reflects badly on the writer's people and leaders, which would generally be a mark of reliability.  Fayenatic london (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I would tend to take the view that an account that essentially summarizes the Bible should be called "Biblical account" or similar. There is no need for Wikipedia to  vouch for or against, or for us to debate, the account's historicity. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It'd be nice all the same to consider actual historical evidence of the captivity. To the extent that it does have a historical basis, and that the historical basis diverges on significant points from the accounts in Jewish scripture, for this article to be considered complete it should cite the known or accepted historical facts and sources. Don't use Wikipedia's neutral point of view to excuse not being thorough. Hmoulding (talk) 03:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Historicity

message: I'm tempted to add something about the expression Babylonian captivity of the Church, which was originally used to descriped the captivity of the Roman Catholic Church in the see of Avignon during the Western Schism. It was subsequently re-used by Martin Luther during the early days of the Protestant Reformation. ADM (talk) 06:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't know that. It would be great to add this. Although this event really "starts" modern Judaism as we know it (customs, normative cultural form [diaspora], rabbis) and so inhabits a particularly special place in Jewish history, Christianity has its own interpretation for the exile as well as their own metaphors based upon this event. The inclusion of such information will only help to make the article more valuable.BinaryLust (talk) 01:12, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  See Babylonian captivity (disambiguation) which is a hatnote at the top of the article. Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:56, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Babylonian captivity of the Church

message: I don't understand this paragraph:
:According to the book of Ezra-Nehemiah, the Persian Cyrus the Great ended the exile in 538 BC, the year in which he captured Babylon.[7] For reasons not explained in the biblical history nothing was done at the time
"Nothing was done" - in what sense? AxelBoldt (talk) 17:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Nothing was done at the time"?! 

message: This article is not very neutral and is written as if it is exclusively for Jewish people (Reform/Secular level). That is why I found it a little funny that the above is an actual header. This is an article for a universal and neutral global encyclopedia. Secular historical scholarship should be given far more weight including how the page should be designed.
However, I don't want to sound overly critical here. People can always add a section that includes more secular, archaeological research (me included). The biblical history depicted in the article is generally considered pretty accurate, especially for a religious text. Although if I didn't know history, including Jewish history, from a neutral secular perspective I would not know this. Herein lies the problem for me with this article. Additionally, I looked at the references and the books listed, which is exceptional for an article this small. Frankly, this tells me that the people who have written for this article are well versed and have the capability to produce both a more neutral article and a lengthier one but chose the perspective they did.BinaryLust (talk) 01:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Significance in Jewish history"...a bit redundant, eh? 

message: Years later, I find myself in agreement with the comment on this page "I am a bit confused...is this article stating all this as fact, or is it mearly relaying STORIES told by religious texts??
I'm unfamiliar with said texts which is why i'm asking if this is fact or disputed???--Donnie from the mean streets of Boston, KY 20:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading the section in Finkelstein and Silberman's The Bible Unearthed, it would seem that there is archaeological evidence but no extra-biblical textual evidence, although they do say "Other sites north of Jerusalem such as Bethel and Gibeon continued to be inhabited in the same era. In the area to the south of Jerusalem, around Bethlehem, there seems to have been significant continuity from the late monarchic to the Babylonian period. Thus, to both the north and south of Jerusalem, life continued almost uninterrupted. Both text and archaeology contradict the idea that between the destruc- tion of Jerusalem in 586 bce and the return of the exiles after the proclamation of Cyrus in 538 bce Judah was in total ruin and uninhabited." Dougweller (talk) 10:01, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historicity (again) 

message: I began doing a copyedit of the Biblical history of the Exile section, but gave up before I got very far. There are elements that omit or otherwise do not concur properly with the biblical account.
The statement about Judah rebelling against Babylon in 599BCE is wrong, and leaves out key details. Specifically, Jehoiakim began paying tribute in early 604BCE, in Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, initially to prevent a siege, reported by Berossus via Josephus (Daniel 1:1, Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews X). He paid tribute to Nebuchadnezzar for the three subsequent years, during which Nebuachadnezzar made various campaigns throughout the region to collect tributes from the various vassal states (2 Kings 24:1, BM 21946 front lines 15-17, 23, reverse lines 1-5). After Jehoiakim had paid tribute to Nebuchadnezzar for three years, he then refused in his eighth year, most likely in early 600BCE (some time before Nisan), after he learned of Babylon's failed attack on the Egyptians in 601BCE (2 Kings 24:1, BM 21946 reverse lines 6-7, Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews X). The following year (600BCE), Nebuchadnezzar remained in Babylon (BM 21946 reverse line 8), and the next year (599BCE) sent various smaller attacks against Jerusalem (2 Kings 24:2, BM 21946 reverse lines 9-10). Then in late 598BCE, Nebuchadnezzar began his siege against Jerusalem that led up to the exile (2 Kings 24:10-11, BM 21946 reverse lines 11-13).
Is there a reason these details aren't present in the section?--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:22, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biblical history 

message: So I have managed to answer my own question as to historicity which I asked more than a year ago on this page, and got a helpful response from Dougweller referring me to "The Bible Unearthed" which, however, the main article does not use as a source at all. Rather than the skewed emphasis on chronology placed right after the lead, with exact dates given in some cases, it would be better to establish which of these events can be confirmed from sources outside the Bible as actually having taken place at all, which I was not alone in being unable to discern from reading this article, see previous questions on this talk page. It really needs to be re-written, I will make some suggestions on this talk page and revisions to the article bit by bit over the next weeks.Smeat75 (talk) 14:17, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be great. I get a bit annoyed when I see articles which use dates which suggest that something is definitely a historical even when the only source is a religious text, whatever that text might be. Dougweller (talk) 13:53, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have made a start, but there is still a lot to do, I wish there were a tag you could put on articles that says something like "This article is in the process of being revised, please don't judge it the way it is right now, come back in a day or two and look again."Smeat75 (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe  or ?--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh thanks Jeffro, I did not know about those. Smeat75 (talk) 20:03, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

text: So I have done what I can for now, would be interested to hear any comments or questions. There is a whole section, "Significance in Jewish history', that does not quote any references or sources, which I have tagged as such.Smeat75 (talk) 02:10, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is in a very poor state 

message: IP 176.227.135.231 changed the final sentence ot the lead from "Archaeological studies have revealed that only a minority of the population of Judah was deported, and that, although Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, other parts of Judah continued to be inhabited during the period of the exile" to "Archaeological studies have revealed that tens of thousands of the religious, military, Royal and civic Judahite elite were deported, and that, although Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, other parts of Judah continued to be inhabited, by "the poor" non elite, during the period of the exile" with an edit summary "More recent discoveries are clear that around 40000 elite were exiled". According to WP:LEAD the lead should be a summary of the article and should not contain information that is not cited in the main body of the text, that is why there does not have to be inline citations in the lead. But the revision of the IP is a statement not supported by a cite, is not discussed later in the article, and is not what the cited sources on the matter in the body of the article say, I know because I wrote it. So I am changing it back to the way it was before, also the IP changed a date with no citation given for the change, maybe it is correct but it needs a citation, so I am changing that back too.Smeat75 (talk) 13:52, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes to the lead 

message: Is it correct to refer to the people of Israel as "Jews" at this date? Yes, the deportees were largely from Jerusalem, which was in the land of Judah - but doesn't the word "Jews" in the modern world have very different associations to what would be proper here? I think the more proper designation is "Israelites". 
Try this thought experiment: would the people deported from Judah to Babylon at that time have identified themselves as "Jews"? Would they have had rabbis? Would they have had synagogues?
86.42.146.84 (talk) 09:56, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The monotheistic reformers began their work in the kingdom of Israel, that's why most of the older biblical history is written around Israel, and the people are referred to as Israelites. When that kingdom was destroyed by the Assyrians they moved south to the southern kingdom of Judah and began poffering their ideology there and rewriting their history so that now the kingdom of Judah was the chosen people and not the people of Israel. The descendants of Israel would go on to become the Samaritans, the descendants of Judah would go on to become the Jews. This has caused a great deal of confusion, the Samaritans heritage is often totally denied because of it.2601:140:8900:61D0:5D6F:F90F:AD5A:403C (talk) 16:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Jews"? 

message: I don't like the mention of the story of Daniel in the lead, that is just a made up fable with no historicity and I would rather try to keep this article about the real Babylonian captivity, an actual event.Smeat75 (talk) 13:34, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously the story of Daniel lacks historicity. However, I have restored details that are also corroborated by BM 21946. I have also consistently given the years excluding Nebuchadnezzar's accession year in each case, with 'seventh year' (not including accession year) for the siege ending in 597 BCE, rather than 'eighth year' (including accession year).--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daniel in the lead 

message: Why was this deleted? I don't understand the rationale given. Doug Weller talk 18:14, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ezra and the two texts 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following was added three times with varied wording:
However Kores of Ezra 1:1 is called "king of Persia", which title was introduced  not by Cyrus the Great but by his grandson and probable namesake Xerxes (485–465 BCE)Roman Ghirshman, Iran (1954), Penguin Books, , p 191., possibly shifting the events.
First, why three times?
Secondly, we try to avoid the use of "However". Our guideline on words to watch says "More subtly, editorializing can produce implications that are not supported by the sources. Words used to link two statements such as but, despite, however, and although may imply a relationship where none exists, possibly unduly calling the validity of the first statement into question while giving undue weight to the credibility of the second."
Third, our article Xerxes doesn't mention Kores, which so far as I understand means Cyrus - so are you saying that Ezra 1 calls Cyrus King of Persia or that he doesn't?  and our article on Cyrus the Great says that "King of Persia" was one of his titles. However, our article Xerxes does say "changed his title from "king of the Babylonians/Chaldeans" to "king of the Persians"" which is sourced to Ghirshman. This needs following up, ie more scholarly sources.
Most important though is the "possibly shifting the events". I can't see that in Ghirsham so it appears to be original research. Doug Weller talk 19:19, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've solved this. What Ghirshman actually says is " After this he ceased to use the title of 'king of Babylon', calling himself simply 'king of the Persians and the Medes'." That means he dropped the title "King of Babylon", not that he changed it, that's a misinterpretation. Ghirshman also says "Nabonidus prepared himself for defence against Astyages, and astutely entered into alliance with Cyrus II, King of the Persians" Also, " The Nabodinus Chronicle notes the change in his title from simply "King of Anshan", a city, to "King of Persia". Assyriologist François Vallat wrote that "When Astyages marched against Cyrus, Cyrus is called ‘King of Anshan’, but when Cyrus crosses the Tigris on his way to Lydia, he is ‘King of Persia’. The coup therefore took place between these two events."". Cyrus's successor Cambyses II was also called King of Persia. Doug Weller talk 16:52, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  My revert of "However Kores of Ezra 1:1 is called "king of Persia", which title was introduced  not by Cyrus the Great " etc 

message: Why are the Al-Yahudu Tablets, which provide a great deal of information about the life and social status of Jews in Mesopotamia during the rule of Nebuchadnezzar, not mentioned a single time in the current version of the text of this article? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:41, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Because no-one added the information, including you. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:14, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Al-Yahudu Tablets]]

message: There is nothing in the article about Judahite deportees in Mesopotamia except for Jehoiachin's Rations Tablets, and there is much more there. Too Judah-fixated. Arminden (talk) 18:18, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archaeological findings in Mesopotamia re. presence of Judahites 

message: Per the article:
According to the book of Ezra, the Persian Cyrus the Great ended the exile in 538 BCE,[15] the year after he captured Babylon.[16] The exile ended with the return under Zerubbabel the Prince (so-called because he was a descendant of the royal line of David) and Joshua the Priest (a descendant of the line of the former High Priests of the Temple) and their construction of the Second Temple in the period 521–516 BCE.[15]
This is confusing, because we are saying that Cyrus ended the exile in 538 but the exile ended between 521 and 516. What would be the best way to improve the phrasing? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ending date for exile