Talk:Reggaeton/Archive 1

message: I'm the original writer of the longer article, which in turn included sparing parts of the previous stub article and information gleaned mostly from various web pages. I've got no personal connection to the Reggaeton community besides being a distant, non-spanish-speaking fan of its output, so I'm happy to see the article being expanded to the extent that it has been by dedicated fans.
However, as I've watched this article grow, the meaning has changed rather dramatically in a number of areas. As an outsider I don't believe myself qualified to adjudicate the disputes presented within, and I've instead added the NPOV template. You're welcome to remove it if you feel you're able to settle all the possible disputes.
I will, however, list the major things that have changed since I first started the article off. I've left out the ones on spelling (Latino America? Why?) and the ones that constructively added to the article.
* The major problem appears to be the dispute between Puerto Ricans and Panamaians concerning the origin of the music. My original formulation "originating in Puerto Rico and Panama" has, in turn, had both countries removed. It currently reads only "Panama" which seems dubious to say the least.
* All references to hip-hop have been removed from the opening two sections. What, exactly, is a "pop" influence and how does it differ from the influences on Jamaican music at the time?
* While I greatly appreciate the expanded "Distinguishing Features" section, the assertion that Reggaeton's drum machine track is derived from early dancehall is just plain wrong. It was a good decade into dancehall's existence that the afro-carribbean 3+3+2 rhythm was first used, replacing one-drop, which had reigned for the previous 30 years. At no point in ragga history was the drum track that pronounced. Also, the formulation was an attempt to describe what distinguished reggaeton from dancehall, not what brought them together. (What was removed was essentially a reference to older Puerto Rican styles. Some kind of discussion on the latino roots of Reggaeton would be sucjit to have been created in a cultural vacuum. Which it might well have been, I don't know.)
* The "Reggaeton Today" section needs serious restructuring - my formulation about the international hits belongs together at the end with the N.O.R.E. hit. Certainly, it should not start off the paragraph. Someone please rewrite.
* All Panamaians have been removed from the "Well-known artists" list in a previous edit. Please rectify. Also, Héctor y Tito appear twice. :) And is N.O.R.E. really a reggaeton artist? 
Birdseed 11:54, 2005 Mar 4 (UTC)
:: Birdseed and esekaese - I'm trying to change the article with your suggestions as well as my own thoughts in mind. Let me know what you think. 
Wathiik 08:08, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Why I just added the NPOV template

message: The neutrality in the Controversy section of the article is debateable. Living in Puerto Rico, I can assert that not all lyrics or music is an example to follow. Many times have the artists, rappers or whatever you may want to call them, said that their music and/or lyrics represent either: an example, or what they think is right or wrong and are an ACT, a SHOW that people like, just like a movie. Many times "perreo" has been called obscene, and just as many times compared to older dance movements that, in their time, caused just as much a stir. The deaths the section mentions in clubs and pubs have nothing to do with the music or the dance, they are many times revenge on drug-related murders. It's true that David Sanchez (Tempo) is serving a 24-year sentence on heroin trafficking, but even though he is in prison, many consider him to be the king of puertorrican rap. Many people think the justice system in the island wants to set an example out of him, the judge of the case was quoted as saying: "Being an artist, you should set an example to our kids very different that what you are showing", on my part I think the remark coming from the judge was inappropiate and biased. People here in the island may remember othe rappers such as Don Omar, who was arrested while supposedly smoking marijuana and with a gun with a mutilated serial number, when it was proved he waas not smoking, but the other people traveling in the vehicle were, these people were not tried. The exact same scenario happened to Julio Voltio, and no cause was found for trial. A more recent case, in which the singer Berto, from the group Trebol Clan, was arrested for driving drunk and One Pound of marijuana was found inside the SUV he was driving, again no cause was found. So, the point I'm trying to demonstrate is the same as actors and characters, rappers/singers have the image the project to people, the public face, and have a person face too, meaning that just because a song says he shoots 10 people with an AK47, he really does it, which I'm sure that this is the case many times, very similar to a movie.
Sorry for the long rant but I felt that the whole story should be considered, not just one point of view. Miguelfp1 05:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality regarding controversy section? 

message: Should it be a section of criticisms of the music genre? Like political connections. The PNP had use the reggaeton to get the young vote more that the other political parties. Also let be honest even though is a Puerto Rican genre, not a lot people like it.
:Feel free to add and see what people think. It might even be better to put it in the Puerto Rico section at the bottom rather than in a criticim section at the moment. Also you should really sign your name after a post in discussions pages with 4 of the ~ characters. The above post seems to have gone through a few edits without being signed. - Master Of Ninja 19:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, there should be a section on criticisms, it has been hit pretty hard for its lyrics and the repetitive use of the dem bow. CraigP 02:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticisms??? 

message: *Hi - i just wanted to log this (currently unverifiable) bit of research on the origins of the word reggaeton, which might help with the above discussion on hispanisation. This link seems to suggest that the word it from reggae itself, and was used by first used by DJ Blass in mixtapes.  DJ Nelson first used the name in a commercial album. So it suggests that DJ Blass should be given credit for this. However I can find no other research which indicates this unless we have a verifiable source for the mixtapes and albums. I suspect if they exist that they will be in spanish so might need someone quite proficient in the langugage to look all this up. - Master Of Ninja 00:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of the name reggaeton 

message: For whatever reason, a few wiki users who seem to neither speak Spanish or listen to reggaeton continue to vandalize this page.  Numerous wikipedia articles on music genres and subgenres link to sites with little more than photos (not to mention the countless wiki dedicated to people that only link to galleries).  The fact that wiki contain photos means the images have encyopledia value.  The link is to a nonprofit site with reggaeton images and reggaeton articles and interviews.  I remove links to sites that are just selling something (CDs), removing this link is page vandalism, and repeat violators will be reported. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.159.20.189 (talk • contribs) 00:18, 8 January 2006
*The link you keep adding is spam, whether the site is commercial or not. It adds absolutely no encyclopedic value to the article. --Ezeu 02:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to include the photos, include them directly in the article.  We aren't "vandalizing."  Perhaps we'd take you more seriously if you used a user account, instead of an ip address.  Because with ip addresses, its possible that you're switching.  Please read Wikipedia:External links.  Thanks, --Urthogie 12:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, note that Salsa music doesn't have any external links to spam.--Urthogie 12:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Well apparently you don't know Wikipedia's rules.  If any wikipedia page does have such galleries, I intend on removing them as they are SPAM.  Check two you is an actual user, you are an anonymous spammer who has made no real significant edits.  I find it funny that everyone reverting me and check are anon ip's.  Please stop, your site will not be advertised here, as you can see in Wikipedia:External Links.  Also, im gonna try and get this page protected from anonymous users.--Urthogie 21:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't made any derogatory comments.  Please stop causing problems on this page.  You're breaking wikipedia policy, and I'm going to try and get an sprotect.--Urthogie 09:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of links to photos 

message: this is a form of reggaeton
:Reggaetón is the bastard child of real reggae. It is kept locked in Bob Marley's basement, where he routinely flogs it with his dreadlocks. Tony Myers 22:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  reggaeton 

message: Some people don't want to concede that Puerto Rico wasn't the birthplace of reggaeton, but anyone familiar with the music of El General or who ever listened to "Te Ves Buena" realizes that the music originated in Panama.  Just as Salsa originated in Cuba but evolved and was made popular in PR, reggaeton took off in Puerto Rico.  Someone changed the article wording to suggest that it could be from Puerto Rico when the consensus has been that its roots are in Panama.
Check the citations, major media sources credit Panama.
As far as the other countries, reggaeton is not born in Cuba, part of what describes reggaeton music is discussion on society's problems, sexuality, and crime, and that's exactly why the Cuban government bans a great deal of reggaeton music on the island.  Its played there, but it didn't originate from there.  For those that say its from the Dominican Republic, cite sources, because its news to me if it came from there.  The Colombian references are possible (see the first discussions on the subject below), but at best it would mean that Panama used a few elements of Colombian music.  Sources would be a plus, as I've never once heard someone credit Colombia as being the birthplace of reggaeton.
:We need to come to a consensus of this.  Recently people have been adding their favourite country into various parts of the article with respect to reggaeton, with other deleting things and what not. For a long time before the consensus was that while the basis of reggaeton was panamanian, the actual style of reggaeton was from Puerto Rico. While the older article was quite clear, recent changes have made the text flow less well. We should get to a new consensus which should be located here, and not modified, as well as referenced properly. Would it be also possible to sign their comments on the discussion page with four tildes to log the name, date and time? Comments please. - Master Of Ninja 20:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  reggaeton origins 

message: Do we have any information concerning how most Americans feel about Reggaeton? For example, the white reaction to the music, or the differences in reaction between white adults and white youths, would be nice. There does not seem to be a whole lot in here about that. 
History21 06:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, that Bubbling Beat stuff is very interesting! It's kinda similar to DJ Laz and other latin-oriented bass performers circa 1992 and the beats sound a bit like Merengue but aren't (and also seem really free, which is a good thing). I'd really appreciate an article by someone who knows about the history of the genre. Birdseed 15:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What About the White People?

message: To the person who recently changed this article, see Talk:Music of Panama.
1) The whole part about homophobia is a bald-faced lie. 
2) Vico C didn't do the first spanish-language hip-hop record, in any case the first in Puerto Rico. He did the first comercially available one in Puerto Rico in 1988, not 1985, but it is true he recorded underground tapes in 1985 and later on.
What Puerto Ricans bring to reggaeton did bring into the mix was house music (itself a fusion of salsoul and disco) and straigth up hip-hop.
BTW, I am boricua, and I grew up in Old San Juan.
-esekaese
:In the spanish version of Wikipedia we accept that Reggaetón is from Puerto Rico and Panama. Moreover, user from Panama comment in the discussion´s page: "El reggaeton no es originario de Panamá, es exclusivo de Puerto Rico; aunque aca en Panamá se escucha. No confundir reggaeton con reggae, género que Panamá ha cultivado en los ultimos años(Taichi)" 
:I think that if this article should include the two version of the histoy to be just.-- Abeyno
::Well the article was changed to try and give equal weight to Panama and Puerto Rico, with the opening line "beginnings in Panama", as well as a heavy emphasis in Puerto Rico in the rest of the article. The references after the first sentence all point to the fact that there are Panamanian origins (to whatever extent). I do suggest that maybe more emphasis be given to Puerto Rico, especially the difference between Reggae and Reggaeton, but the problem has been people coming in and changing the text to say Puerto Rico (on its own) leading to reverts which completely disrupt attempts to make the article better. The article as it is is good but can be improved. - Master Of Ninja 17:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccuracies

message: We should use the Spanish spelling of “reggaetón” since the English language is borrowing it. Although the first part of the word is of English influence, the word is of Spanish origin, including its extension. Here is a list of notable sources that use the correct spelling. To be just I've included both English and Spanish organisations. 
• AOL Latino 
• Atlantic Records 
• Billboard 
• Houston Chronicle, The 
• La Prensa Gráfica 
• MSN Latino 
• MTV 
• New York Times, The 
• New Yorker, The 
• People en Español [
• Telemundo 
• Univision 
I’d also like to explain why the word “reggaetón” requires an acute diacritic. Because the word is of Spanish origin with English influence it is important to retain both elements. According to Spanish grammar, accent marks are limited to the last three syllables of a word. In this situation the biggest intonation ends in the last syllable, and in Spanish if the last syllable is stressed it is called acute. Follow me so far? Good. To test whether or not the word requires an accent mark is simple, if the acute word ends with the letter N simply look for the letter before the n. If that letter is a vowel then it needs an accent, but if the letter is a consonant an accent mark is not allowed. In this case the word “reggaetón” requires an acute diacritic to maintain its Spanish orthography and correct pronunciation. 
Sources: Grámatica de la Lengua Española by Emilio Alarcos Llorach and Dónde va la tilde by Fernando Ávila. --flamma 03:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't speak Spanish and do not know the history of reggaeton, you shouldn't be making these kinds of edits (99% of your edits on here seem to deal with your obsession with grammar).  There is a reason why the accent marks haven't been added to this article in years, its because the word reggaeton didn't use an accent mark when it was coined (I had purchased the first albums and mixtapes that actually started using the word, you clearly haven't).  Some media sources add the accent, this is not how it was originally used and they are putting their own incorrect twist on it.  The bottom line is that the companies that are actually INVOLVED with reggaeton (Machete Music, Sony BMG, White Lion, Gold Star, Mas Flow, Jiggiri Records) don't use an accent mark in their promotions, on their CDs when the word is present, or in press releases.  The last four named are BASED in Puerto Rico, if they aren't doing it, why would other countries.  Its the reason why the Reggaaeton Ninos series has the mark over the N but (surprise) no accent over the O.  Kazzanova is the biggest Reggaeton DJ on the radio, and (surprise) no accent on the mixed CDs he puts out.  Same thing with Mas Flow greatest hits, Gold Star greatest hits.  In fact, I doubt you can find a single CD on amazon.com that has the word reggaeton with an accent (go look up reggaetón and reggaeton both), and if there is, its a rarity.  Did I mention that every single major reggaeton site on the entire web (sites dedicated to that genre) do NOT use the accent?  Are the experts wrong?  So again, if you don't know anything about reggaeton music, you need to leave this page completely alone and stick to articles you know something about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.155.122.159 (talk) 23:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't speak Spanish? I guess I happened to read la Gramática de la lengua Española without knowing a lick of it. As for the history, I do know it, but that’s irrelevant. The spelling without the accent was not originally used? I guess somebody just threw it up and it caught on from there huh? Either way I'm not here to follow the misspellings of the record companies or the artist that use them (which they do use the accent.) I'm here to fix the spelling according to how it is found in the Spanish dictionary. Who are you exactly calling “experts”? I really hope you're not referring to the mixtape artists’. The only experts I know of are the Spanish Academies that regulate the orthography of the language. You should really not write with such hostility and ignorance, especially when I've done nothing to offend you until now, and you honestly deserve it. According to the Academia Puertorriqueña which is a department of the Real Academia Española, they're using “reguetón”. Like I said earlier it does not matter how many times you've seen “reggaeton”, in the end it is the language regulators and the rules that dictate how a word is spelled, not public misspellings. If you're going to use “reggaeton” do not insult the Spanish language by breaking the rules. The word is Spanish, not English, and it is the public’s responsibility to abide by their rules. “Reggaeton” is an impossible spelling because it defies regulations; “Reggaetón” is formal and educated. And now it seems that both will be gone and replaced by “el reguetón”. Read this article and educate yourself, you really could use some help from it El Reguetón Don't forget to sign your name next time, you come off as stupid if you talk the talk but decide to remain anonymous. --flamma 02:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Guys, take a chill pill... Sfacets 03:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  *Swallows pill* Hey, got an opinion on this? It might help. --flamma 14:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: El Reggaetón

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
*Support per nominator.  We have far too many of these unfreferenced, undiscussed moves on Wikipedia, and Wknight94 explains quite well that this is exactly what has gone on here.  Gene Nygaard 19:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And interestingly :es:Reggaeton does not use the accented ó either. —  AjaxSmack    08:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  They’re waiting for official word from the dictionary, despite the fact that the rules are already available on the Academy’s orthography section. Monkey moves? I’m sure you can make a stronger argument, or maybe you can’t. --flamma 17:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Note the BBC does not use accents. This is what they had to say regarding them: “We rarely use accents and other characters on BBC News Online, as different browsers and platforms can have difficulty rendering them.” --flamma 20:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The word is Spanish with English influence, all Spanish words must adhere to Spanish spellings, even if they have foreign language influence. For example: pizzería and réflex are not Spanish words but when they entered the Spanish language they adopted proper orthography. --flamma 00:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And likewise, English word this has "adopted proper orthography spelling", even if the Spanish choose to spell it differently.  Why do you think the Spanish language has a right to change spellings in the examples you gave, but nobody else has the same right? That's downright bizarre, especially when you are talkig about the English Wikipedia. Gene Nygaard 14:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The Spanish language does it to assist the reader in properly pronouncing the word. Sure English can borrow the word “reggaetón” and remove the accent, but why remove such a helpful assistant when you can leave it as is? This English Wiki is about a Spanish musical movement, therefore it should retain it’s original orthography. Just like the word jalapeño, it would be ignorant and rude for English to borrow the word and change it to “jalapeno”. Same goes for foreign words that have entered the English language like fiancée. Sure you could spell it “fiancee” but it loses its elegance, proper pronunciation, and in the end it becomes a watered down version. If we know that it has an accent and it helps the reader with the pronunciation why would we want to remove it? It sounds like unnecessary dissection to me. I don’t understand why we would purposely remove an accent from a foreign word to accommodate it better to the English language, especially when English is filled with many loan words that retain their diacritic like: naïve, résumé, piñata, café, exposé, façade and many more. If the word has an accent I suggest we keep it, no reason to be imperialistic about it and slice off the accent to make it more English. The accent helps the reader determine that the intonation is on the last syllable.  --flamma 04:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see how any English speaker would pronounce it differently, with or without the accent. English-speakers know how to pronounce reggae. Spanish has a rigid system of pronunciation and so needs the accent to say that it is non-standard. English does not need that (unlike the examples you gave). -- Beardo 07:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You might be right in that English speakers would pronounce it correctly either way, but I’ve heard monolingual English speakers omit the elongated intonation in the last syllable. I don’t know what you mean by a rigid system, if you mean organized then yes. Non-standard means incorrect, uncommon and even vulgar; accents are most certainly neither of those. If you meant that accents are not standard, as in not normally used, then I’d have to disagree and say that accents are not a new invention and are used by numerous languages. I’m sure educated people will have no trouble saying the word correctly even if it were spelled as “reggaeton” as I’m sure all Spanish and French speakers would know exactly how to pronounce all their words if accents were removed from their language. But that argument doesn’t mean we should simplify spelling because we can get by without the guidance of accents. If that were the case we’d spell words as tuff instead of tough, but spelling is an art. Your last argument is that the examples I gave need the accents, but reggaetón does not. Despite the fact that Merriam-Webster is a horrendous source of spelling guidance they’ve maintained the original spelling of the following words that one could argue is also unnecessary: crème brûlée , déjà vu , doppelgänger , gâteau , über , voilà  and boîte . The accents are kept because writing is an elegant form and to omit the accent would be erasing the truth. --flamma 19:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: *Support per nominator.  We have far too many of these unfreferenced, undiscussed moves on Wikipedia, and Wknight94 explains quite well that this is exactly what has gone on here.  Gene Nygaard 19:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And interestingly :es:Reggaeton does not use the accented ó either. —  AjaxSmack    08:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  They’re waiting for official word from the dictionary, despite the fact that the rules are already available on the Academy’s orthography section. Monkey moves? I’m sure you can make a stronger argument, or maybe you can’t. --flamma 17:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Note the BBC does not use accents. This is what they had to say regarding them: “We rarely use accents and other characters on BBC News Online, as different browsers and platforms can have difficulty rendering them.” --flamma 20:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in support of the move

message: *Oppose The word’s origin is in the Spanish language, it uses the word “reggae” from the English language as influence. According to Spanish orthography rules the word “reggaetón” requires an accent on the ‘o’. When the English language loans words from other languages it can retain diacritics, like in the following words supported by the Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster: crème brûlée , déjà vu , doppelgänger , fiancée , über  and voilà . Removing the accent would be unnecessary, it’s helpful and does not take up much space.  --flamma 06:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The word is Spanish with English influence, all Spanish words must adhere to Spanish spellings, even if they have foreign language influence. For example: pizzería and réflex are not Spanish words but when they entered the Spanish language they adopted proper orthography. --flamma 00:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And likewise, English word this has "adopted proper orthography spelling", even if the Spanish choose to spell it differently.  Why do you think the Spanish language has a right to change spellings in the examples you gave, but nobody else has the same right? That's downright bizarre, especially when you are talkig about the English Wikipedia. Gene Nygaard 14:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Spanish language does it to assist the reader in properly pronouncing the word. Sure English can borrow the word “reggaetón” and remove the accent, but why remove such a helpful assistant when you can leave it as is? This English Wiki is about a Spanish musical movement, therefore it should retain it’s original orthography. Just like the word jalapeño, it would be ignorant and rude for English to borrow the word and change it to “jalapeno”. Same goes for foreign words that have entered the English language like fiancée. Sure you could spell it “fiancee” but it loses its elegance, proper pronunciation, and in the end it becomes a watered down version. If we know that it has an accent and it helps the reader with the pronunciation why would we want to remove it? It sounds like unnecessary dissection to me. I don’t understand why we would purposely remove an accent from a foreign word to accommodate it better to the English language, especially when English is filled with many loan words that retain their diacritic like: naïve, résumé, piñata, café, exposé, façade and many more. If the word has an accent I suggest we keep it, no reason to be imperialistic about it and slice off the accent to make it more English. The accent helps the reader determine that the intonation is on the last syllable.  --flamma 04:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see how any English speaker would pronounce it differently, with or without the accent. English-speakers know how to pronounce reggae. Spanish has a rigid system of pronunciation and so needs the accent to say that it is non-standard. English does not need that (unlike the examples you gave). -- Beardo 07:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You might be right in that English speakers would pronounce it correctly either way, but I’ve heard monolingual English speakers omit the elongated intonation in the last syllable. I don’t know what you mean by a rigid system, if you mean organized then yes. Non-standard means incorrect, uncommon and even vulgar; accents are most certainly neither of those. If you meant that accents are not standard, as in not normally used, then I’d have to disagree and say that accents are not a new invention and are used by numerous languages. I’m sure educated people will have no trouble saying the word correctly even if it were spelled as “reggaeton” as I’m sure all Spanish and French speakers would know exactly how to pronounce all their words if accents were removed from their language. But that argument doesn’t mean we should simplify spelling because we can get by without the guidance of accents. If that were the case we’d spell words as tuff instead of tough, but spelling is an art. Your last argument is that the examples I gave need the accents, but reggaetón does not. Despite the fact that Merriam-Webster is a horrendous source of spelling guidance they’ve maintained the original spelling of the following words that one could argue is also unnecessary: crème brûlée , déjà vu , doppelgänger , gâteau , über , voilà  and boîte . The accents are kept because writing is an elegant form and to omit the accent would be erasing the truth. --flamma 19:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in opposition to the move

message: Shouldn't they be mentioned somewhere in the article since they are pioneers in the genre? You know, Gomy Man, Yaviah, Guanábanas, Guallo Man, etc. --Pasajero 02:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early reggaeton artists