Talk:Moi dix Mois

message: User 24.185.161.165, I removed your link. Please see Wikipedia's policy on linking to copyrighted works. Specifically: "Linking to copyrighted works is usually not a problem, as long as you have made a reasonable effort to determine that the page in question is not violating someone else's copyright. If it is, please do not link to the page."
The page you linked is full of material violating the artists' copyright.
flowersofnight 13:41, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Leyasu seems to be confused on this concept. I am agreeing to the version edited last by flowers. The only editor backing Leyasu's POV filled version is Leyasu herself, If I am agreeing with flowers version for now, so that is 2 vs. 1, how am I editing against concensus? Oh, I'm not, kthnxbye. - Deathrocker 17:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite the snide remarks and personal attacks of Deathrocker, Deathrocker went again consensus by POV Pushing a change to the article and initating a revert war. Deathrocker went on to start reverting Flowers, and only has agreed to Flowers version when Flowers version represents Deathrockers POV. Regardless, the original consensus still stands, regardless of what way Deathrocker trys to POV push. Ley Shade 18:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Please provide a diff of me claiming ownership of the article. The also irony og it is, when yew check my edit history, ive only ever done spellchecking and gramma edits to the article. Irony when i apparantly 'own the article'. Ley Shade 18:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The theory of consensus

message: Deathrocker: The policy WP:CITE states that as long as their is a source, the information on it goes into the article. It doesnt matter if you disagree with the sources information, as often in the objectivity of WP:NPOV, you have to work for the enemy, which means finding sources that state things you disagree with.
If you wish to debate the bands genre with me, and claim they are not Gothic Metal, please state 'how' they are not Gothic Metal. Also state 'how' they are not Neo-Classical Metal.
Thank you. Ley Shade 21:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To clear up your confusion. Slashes in front of Metal are often used to mean a mixture of both, ie: Doom/Death, and Symphonic/Power and indeed, Gothic/Doom. I dont use slashes myself, but i have changed articles such as Rhapsody that have had them. Someones use of punctuation isnt a dismissal. And three of them explicitly say 'Gothic Metal'. WP:CITE doesnt make pickyness of 'who' says what, it also states that O.R. is allowed if yew make a website or publish what yew think in other media. Thus any source counts.
Now if yew disbelieve them to be Gothic Metal, give a reason as to 'how' they are not Gothic Metal. 'Because i said so' arguments dont wash against Wikipedia policys. Ley Shade 22:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

text: No, we have established they do, and you want to pretend they dont because it doesnt suit yew. Also, again, i will ask one last time, how are they 'not' gothic metal? Ley Shade 23:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerning Citations

message: OK, why don't we back up a few steps.
*First off, I don't think the 10 links posted above are particularly relevant or authoritative. Looks to me like just a collection of fan-made sources from English-speaking countries (i.e. NOT Japan).
*Second: referring to M10M as "gothic" doesn't really make sense in context. Prominent Japanese musicians such as Haruhiko Ash have stated that the gothic music scene in Japan is essentially nonexistent. M10M is not considered "gothic" anything by anyone actually involved in the Japanese music scene. As far as promotion goes, Moi dix Mois is still exclusively promoted in visual kei publications in Japan - though it is true that gothic publications such as Orkus have started to cover M10M overseas.
*Third: Mana himself does not consider the band to be gothic metal; he also has no links to the gothic scene either in Japan or overseas. In recent interviews he has specifically stated that he considers the band to be simply "rock"; in overseas interviews he will also accept the "visual kei" label.
It seems to me that the "gothic" label is one applied to Moi dix Mois exclusively by Western fans, and doesn't really reflect the nature or intentions of the band.
And if people would stop reverting every 5 minutes, maybe we could actually add this to the article!
flowersofnight (talk) 03:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gothic metal

message: Hi,
I only have 3 comments to make but rather than trying to interpret things the way I would like to see them they are based on the words of Mana himself:
*  Moi dix Mois do not play Heavy Metal or Visual Kei but a mixture of Rock and classical music ("sympho rock" - see the official Moi dix Mois website http://midi-nette.com/mdm/profile-english.htm, JaME July 2004 http://www.jmusiceuropa.com/en/files/interview.php?id=30 and Neo Wing March 2006 http://www.neowing.co.jp/music/essentials/moi_dix_mois/index.html#2).  I admit that this is a very general description (and therefore probably not very helpful to Wikipedia readers who don't already know the band) but since Mana says this whenever he is asked the question and since anything else seems to incite heated debates why not stick to Mana's own words?  He never said that Moi dix Mois play Heavy Metal - any kind of Heavy Metal.  He has however said (in an interview with Fools Mate, Nr. 285, July 2005) that he thinks Moi dix Mois' music is somewhere between Positive Punk (i.e. proto-Goth) and Metal but leaning more towards Metal, while the band's looks lean more towards Positive Punk, and that he thinks that therefore Moi dix Mois appeal to both the Metal and Goth scenes, which he is happy about - so perhaps Goth Metal or Gothic Metal is not such an inappropriate descripton after all.  Also note that the European version of Nocturnal Opera was published on a German Goth label (Trisol) and that both Trisol and their new label Gan-Shin are targeting the European Goth and Metal scenes as audiences. As for Visual Kei, please bear in mind that this is not a musical style but an overall artistic concept that can involve any type of music, including a blend of different types of music.  A band can therefore not play Visual Kei music, only follow the artistic concept of Visual Kei by complementing their music with an appropriate visual image.  However, Mana has said more than once that Moi dix Mois are not Visual Kei (again, see JaME July 2004 http://www.jmusiceuropa.com/en/files/interview.php?id=30 and Neo Wing March 2006 http://www.neowing.co.jp/music/essentials/moi_dix_mois/index.html#2).  Lastly, Haruhiko Ash's comments on the Japanese Goth scene at least partly reflect his own wishful thinking or his well-documented resentment of the Visual Kei scene, or both.  The Japanese Goth scene is small but there are increasingly cross-overs between the Goth and the Gothic Lolita scene, with Gothic Lolitas frequenting Goth clubs and prominent DJs like Sisen/Violet DJing at both Goth events like Tokyo Dark Castle and Gothic Lolita events like Alamode.  I have personally met Gothic Lolitas in Japan who were active in both the Visual Kei and Goth scenes and saw no contradiction in that, quite the opposite.  Incidentally, they were all fans of Moi dix Mois and other Mana-related bands like Malice Mizer and Schwarz Stein.
*  Moi dix Mois were not founded on 19 October 2002 but on 19 March 2002 (Mana's birthday - see the Aesthetics blog on Mana's own website http://www.mana-sama.com or the official Moi dix Mois website http://midi-nette.com/mdm/profile-english.htm), and therefore not 10 months after Malice Mizer went into hiatus.  The 10 in the band name refers to birth and beginning, based on the 10 month development period of the human embryo in the mother's womb, which in Japan is calculated in lunar months, therefore totaling 10 instead of 9 months (again, see Moi dix Mois' official website http://midi-nette.com/mdm/profile-english.htm as well as Orkus magazine February 2005).
*  As for whether Mana's image is masculine or feminine, he has said that he wants to express female beauty through his male being and that he wants to tear down the barriers between male and female (Astan magazine May 2005 and October 2005), so I guess you could say that he aims to be neither, or both.
Personally I think part of the beauty of Moi dix Mois is that they cannot be easily categorised because they blend several different musical and visual elements and I think it is kind of sad that this has become a cause for disputes.
: Your view is respected, but, Wikipedia is a Enclyclopedia. Many bands express that they want to be thought of as one type of music, even when they have no connection to it. If your read the articles on Gothic Metal, and Neo-classical metal, Moi Dix Mois have elements from both. They do not completely have all the elements from either, but they contain an overwhelming amount of elements from both musical styles.
: Wether the band, or Mana, has written the music to be this way on purpose, is neither here nor there. They, indirectly or directly, play music that is a cross between Neo-classical metal and Gothic metal.
: Moi Dix Mois also fit the style of Visual Kei, as you have noted.
: I suggest you clean up the parts of the article with things that are slightly dubious, such as the reasoning of the name, or Mana's image, providing an inline citatioc such as this one, . When your done, ill copyedit it for prose and flow. Ley Shade 00:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Some comments on genre, founding date and Mana's image

message: I heard that MdM is going to have a US tour. Is this true? I thought that Wikipedia would have the information but for some reason the page seems to be protected... Calicore 04:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  U.S. tour 

message: The image has been removed from the article (quite unnecessarily, I might add, seeing as how it met fair use guidelines) and I'm wondering about what people would think to be a suitable replacement. There's an image that I think is a poster, but might just be an image that accompanies the album Beyond the Gate that includes Mana, Seth, and K all in the new Moi dix Mois style; I think that would do well. --Berserk798 22:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Image 

message: thumb
I like the idea this new image has, but Mana's head isn't completely removed from the picture featuring K and Seth; also, I don't think the black that covers up where is face once was is very clean looking. I have an image that I'm going to upload, and I think we should make a decision between the two. As a side note, I think the current image we have is a little bit small for satisfaction. --Berserk798 21:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm thinking maybe this? --Berserk798 21:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think, for an infobox image, that one is a little bit too far-away. One that gets closer to the band's faces would be better. Ric 21:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I'll crop it and include it in the article when I find time. --Berserk798 21:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Image 

message: Mana has been quick to say that Moi Dix Mois isn't Visual Kei; he's mentioned in interviews that it's a blend of classical and rock, but it doesn't fit into any preconceived categories. I think we should change the article to say only that it's rock and mention the classical influence. Saying that it's neo-classical metal is way too specific and inaccurate. Ref:   --Berserk798 20:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I'm switching "neo-classical metal" to "rock". It's comforting to hear someone sensible is here to back me up ;). --Berserk798 14:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anything further is necessary on those sentences; nice job. --Berserk798 19:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just Rock 

message: I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people that don't know that it's pronounced Mwa Dees Mwa. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tripp5twiggy (talk • contribs) 04:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Pronunciation 

message: "Gothic rock/metal"? Have any of you looked at the gothic rock page? They are too very different things, so pick one. They are not the same, and gothic metal is not even listed on the gothic subculture page. Gothic rock was a movement in the eighties, and gothic metal is something else. The slash is very misleading and incorrect.
:I had to remove gothic rock again from the page. They are never referred to that in Japan and only mistakenly labeled as such in America due to unfamiliar presumptions on what gothic rock is. I understand that the rock and metal may be to broad for some people to accept but find support for a better one rather than merely changing it to a wrong genre that you "think" they belong in. Even reading above this you can see how people talk of their metal leanings, and gothic rock has no connection to metal. However, the genre gothic metal exists which may be worth looking into.
::Even gothic metal wouldn't do it. If you listen to M10M and listen to gothic metal bands like Evereve, it's very simple to see that they are nothing alike. If anything other than simply "metal," I would call M10M Symphonic metal. Ric | opiaterein 13:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gothic rock 

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: The article Lamentful Miss has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
:Single songs generally do not meet the requirements of WP:N, no mention of notability no references
While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
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replies: text: I'm sad to see I didn't catch this sooner, but I think the "Lamentful Miss" article should be recreated as it is the band's first release to feature Sugiya and Hayato as full members instead of supporting ones, I think that makes it notable enough. Unfortunately I'm not a veteran of creating articles, so if someone else will do it that would be great. However, I think their single "Pageant" should be deleted instead, as according to WP:N. Xfansd (talk) 18:48, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed deletion]] of [[Lamentful Miss]]