Talk:Zeno of Citium

message: I think that writing Stoicism was based on Cynicism is a bit misleading as a statement on it's own, without even hinting that there were nuances to how those philosophies developed, and what their relationship to each other is. I think this can end up in confusion for people with only surface-level knowledge which I suspect most looking at this page will have.
I tried to think of how to explain this succinctly and the best explanation I can come up with is that:
Stoics are students of Zeno and eventually his students. This is supported at least by Diogenes Laertius in The Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers
Cynics were labeled as Cynics, usually by others. As far as I know, it's not entirely clear who was first called a cynic. It also is not clear whether it was used as a derogatory term or not: The ancient greek word for Cynic meant 'dog-like.'
Both groups share similar maxims about things like "Living in accordance with nature," but it seems they understood their shared ideas very differently
I don't have good, sourced sentences to fix this though, and I'm curious what others think.
Xenogis (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cynicism 

message: The issue I've come across though in improving the page is finding good sources to cite, I'd imagine many others have had similar issues. I've been studying Stoic philosophy for a while, and I've had a hell of a time finding a lot of writings. I've definitely read more of Stoics, than direct translation or copy of what they said/wrote. I would think for someone said to be celebrated and prolific like Zeno of Citium, that more would have survived. Maybe it's out there, but just more esoteric than I realized.
Xenogis (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Recently the claim has been added that Zeno was Syrian, sourced from a couple of encyclopedia articles that themselves do not source the claim. To the best of my knowledge, this claim is not supported by any ancient source and is indeed contradicted by what's in Zeno's biography provided by Diogenes Laertius, which is where most of our information comes from about Zeno. It seems to me that we should remove the claim from the article, with perhaps a footnote noting the issue. Teishin (talk) 15:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. This makes sense to refer to only original sources. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've added a note about the discrepancy. Tariq afflaq, please address further concerns here. Teishin (talk) 17:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Comments about my age are not relevant here. As noted, Britannica does not source this claim. The claim is contradicted by data we have in our primary source, which dates from around 300 CE. The claim from this tertiary source should be disregarded. Teishin (talk) 18:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannica is a reliable source per WP:RS. Of course it may be in error, but you can't assume that it is just because you know of no ancient source which supports it's assertion. What we need here our modern scholarly sources which support or refute such claims. Paul August ☎ 18:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text:  It is well attested in the literaure that he is Phoenician. BTW, Britannica is obsolete for this and is not a source here. Also see Bevan. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 19:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: It couldn't be like that at all, as we know Zeno was from Citium.Teishin (talk) 19:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is a simple sample of modern scholarship. []  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk • contribs) 19:03, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Do you have other reliable sources besides Britannica? Paul August ☎ 14:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Our articles cannot be used as reliable sources. Why can't Zeno be both Syrian and Phoenician? Paul August ☎ 14:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Our job is to be concerned with what this article says. I am pointing out what this article says, in the Talk page about this article. Teishin (talk) 15:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

text: "Some tertiary sources ascribe Syrian ethnicity to Zeno, e.g., Britannica and Encyclopedia.com without providing evidence and which is contradicted by primary sources."
What are these "primary sources"? Paul August ☎ 22:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

text: Our own article says most of what we know of Zeno's biography comes from Diogenes Laertius. I just minutes ago added the thin info from the Suda, also primary, all of which confirms Diogenes Laertius. Other than some fragments, that's about it for our information about Zeno's biography (in my experience in the field). Information about his philosophy is much more scattered in the primary sources.Teishin (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Both sources say he was "Phoenician", that's not the same as saying he wasn't Syrian. He could be both Syrian and Phoenician couldn't he? I don't think we can say that these "primary sources" contradict Britannica (or encyclopedia.com). Paul August ☎ 22:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Explain how a Phoencian (ethnicity) person who was from Cyprus (location) could be from an ethnicity or a location other than those as both of those are settled? Sure, "Syria" as a concept is fluid. Roman Syria incorporated the Phoenician city of Tyre, causing Tariq afflaq to edit war about the Phoenician Porphyry being Syrian. And, sure, it is fine to say that Tyre was part of Roman Syria (my unaccepted bid to accommodate Tariq afflaq's point, but these are not the same thing. Teishin (talk) 23:05, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Phoenician as used in the ancient sources here is not necessarily an ethnicity. And even if it was, what these source are calling "Phoenician" could easily be the same thing that Britannica is calling "Syrian". We should not be relying on our interpretation of what primary sources say. We need modern scholarship to tell what these ancient sources mean. Unless we can come up with a modern source that says what Britannica says is contradicted by the ancient sources, we need to remove that part of the note. Paul August ☎ 23:19, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  PopulationGeneticsLevant already above gave a link to modern scholarship. If you'll investigate the issue involved, you'll see that it was ethnic Phoenicians who established a colony on Cyprus. I am not aware of a modern source that says Britannica is wrong here, nor am I aware of any reason we need such a source. I don't see such things being required in the list, posted above, on Wikipedia, of errors Wikipedia has discovered in Britannica. However, as this new point has been found to be contentious, I'll remove it while we deliberate.Teishin (talk) 23:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syrian Zeno? 

message: Hello, I was looking for the wikipedia article on Zeno's Republic and found it had been merged back into this main article about Zeno with no additional information by a single user over a year ago. They justified it as being all original research and that the work itself no longer exists, but to me there appeared to be at least some sourcing, and I don't believe the loss of a book disqualifies it from being an article, indeed many others have articles here? I'm not so well versed on various WP guidelines so I would appreciate it if someone could review this change? Melias C (talk) 14:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Republic Article Merge?