Talk:Trementina Base

message: I think this article is mistaken when it states the vault is in a different location then the runway and the circles. If you compare the KRQE clip, the CNN clip and the 1998 20/20 episode (all on youtube) with google earth you can see that the vault that they showed built into the side of the mountain is located off the zig-zaggy road between the circles and the runway. KRQE also showed another uniquely shaped building, and you can see on google earth that it is just west and a little south of the circles. If there was a vault on another piece of land in the area  then there must be two vaults.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.7.181.223 (talk) 10:35, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Vault location

message: Oh that is funny !  Secret Base !  Return here after intergalactic travel!  hahahahahaha. Terryeo 19:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Neither of these comments are relevant to the editing of the article. wikipediatrix 22:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good point, good point.  b .. bu . . . but the page was so fresh and clean and unspoiled I just had to LOL. Terryeo 23:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

text: That "comment" *is* about original research.  WP:NOR (no original research) applies.  If a person did such research they could not include that reasearch in a Wikipedia article unless that research were published by a recognized publication organization, such as a newspaper, or a book or the like. Even the publication sort of "essey" of a personal website is not to be included into Wikipedia articles.  Maybe you should consider a profession in journalism? Terryeo 07:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Field work might be skirting close to original research. AndroidCat 15:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no reason a person should not satisfy themselves.  Research away !  But to suggest that the results of personal research could be included into this article overlooks WP:V which states, "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability" and that verifiability references to "published to the public".  So, the way to go about actually doing that would be to have a reporter along who could write a newspaper article which could then be quoted and cited in the article. Terryeo 18:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intergalactic travel

message: The image from Google Earth seems to only be fair use for discussing Google Earth, according to the license template on the image. --Davidstrauss 05:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've wondered about that.  Google of course goes to a lot of work and certainly some expense.  I don't know the legals of it, but at least some attribution to Google would seem to be in order.  Is there a forum for asking question of this nature? Terryeo 18:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair Use? 

message: * The article states, "The actual name of the base, which is patrolled by armed guards, is unknown."  well, the title of the article is Trementina Base.  Knowing Scientology, they probably refer to it as "the organization at Trementina" or just, "trementina" or something.  isn't "an actual name" just plain unnecessary? Terryeo 05:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  some minor problems with the article 

message: hey.. if anyone has links to freemasonry - please post.. i've heard of 'em, but haven't seen 'em.. well.. only one so far. and if anyone has ideas on what these 1.8 million steel things are used for (building a tunnel? `shrugs`) i'd be much amused. (13:43, 10 July 2006) (edit) 158.80.8.2 (Talk) 
: Hey .. U got something to say, create an identity, and sign your posts with four  ~  Terryeo 22:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Terryeo, you're still on probation for causing disruption on Scientology related pages, I'd recommend you stop biting the noobs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with users editing from IPs. --InShaneee 03:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're the guy who invited me to fax you confidential, sacred texts.  The anon editor will get better responses if he establishes an identity, I don't see the connection of 1.8 million steel things and freemasonry and Trementina Base. Perhaps he'll post again, huh?  Terryeo 19:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: masonry

message: The last paragraph of the article states: Another similar compound is the Gold Base in Hemet, California, where Scientologists have, according to former member Andre Tabayoyon, been illegally stockpiling weapons and ammunition for unknown purposes. [7]  What is the similarity?  It very much sounds like pasting in a contentious stockpiling weapons (poorly referenced, anywhere), into an article to disperse the real value of this article.  This article talks about an owned piece of land which is similar to two other which the Church owns, used (apparently) exclusively to archive sacred texts.  The Gold Base has swimming pool, buildings, produces E-Meters, films, etc and is manned with traffic in and out of its gate.  What's the similarity?  Where does the "this equals that equals that equals WP:BEANS, stop?". Terryeo 19:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got to agree with Terryeo on this one--the article isn't about gold base, and the closing bit about stockpiling weapons seems to be there for no reason except to make scientology seem ominous.  Since it is hardly essential to a discussion of Trementina Base, it just seems biased.  I'm going to cut the whole closing about Gold Base on those grounds. BTfromLA 07:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another, Similar Base? 

message: The article states:  According to a June 1992 Claims Court ruling, CST had purchased . . and links to: .  That site presents personal opinion about past court cases.  Whether the personal opinion is true, false or odd, it isn't attributed.  A personal website at least has an attributable author, that website does not. No person and no corperation takes any responsibility for what appears on the site.  The website owner's personal opinion appears (in part): This is the document that identifies former Assistant Commissioner of IRS Meade Emory as "a" (really "the") founder of CST. But perhaps far more damaging, it establishes that Emory had been involved prior to CST "as counsel to other Scientology groups," all covered fully in our special profile of IRS's main man Meade Emory, the boy who restructured all of Scientology for them.    The website's disclaimer says: All conclusions on this web site are merely the informed and expressed consensual opinions of the researchers, investigators, and editors who contributed to its content.  The website's owner is stated to be "© Author's Family Trust-C".  The potential contact e-mail address appears, "memory@sc-i-r-s-ology.pair.com"  No individual takes any responsibility, no corperation is named, all invited submissions are to be encoded by the procedure described there.  Is this really the sort of website that Wikpedia should be using as a secondary source of information? Terryeo 00:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting website, Terryeo... thank you for introducing me to it.  While the info on there seems plausible, it is basically an anonymous samizdat-type publication, and I agree it would not be good to rely upon their claims as a source of fact.  However, this is citing a reproduction of a court case, not the claims of the web site, so if the document is accurate, it may be acceptible as a convenience link--this is one of your favorite topics, I know.  (Of course the court document itself should be cited as the reference, not the web site.) Here's a "cleaner" copy of the court document, minus the opinionated introduction from the anonymous muckrakers.  I'll replace the current link with this better one.   BTfromLA 01:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article introduced the website, though I did duplicate the article's link in my post.  By "secret stuff" I mean particularly that the website suggests it happily accepts information.  BUT information sent to it should be encoded with a personal encoding key which the spell out if you explore the site, clicking "CONTACT".  It seems to me that Wikpedia's purpose is quite opposite such hidden communications. Terryeo 09:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should Wikipedia really get involved in secret stuff? 

message: Within the article, links [5], [6] and [7] all point to the same page of the personal website, "holysmoke".  It isn't a reliable source of information.  Besides which the page doesn't just act as a reposited duplication of a source of information, but presents rumor and personal opinion which the author considers critical to his presentation of information.  The article would have better appearence, Wikipedia would be better served if WP:RS were followed, i.e., if that personal website were not used as a secondary source of information.  Instead, it could be used in an "Exterior Links of interest" section. Besides which, its horribly redundant to cite the same page 3 times in 3 adjacent sentences. Terryeo 09:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secondary sources 

message: Dear #, if you have sources for the SHOUTING statements you added (and were reverted) to the article, post them on this page, and it can be worked into the article. I doubt anyone has a particular axe to grind about which parcels of land CST has, and sourced information about CST is hard to come by. AndroidCat 01:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a darn good piece of information, anon.  Terryeo 08:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: (IP#) shouting bits

message: The article states "The actual name of the base, which is patrolled by armed guards, is unknown". Therefore, the title of the article is WRONG by the article's own admission. Obviously, not enough is known about this "base" to create a proper article about it. The authors don't even know its name! Highfructosecornsyrup 20:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Trementina Base"?? 

message: http://www.lermanet.com/CST/BLM-01.jpg 
Request for land exchange 
http://www.lermanet.com/CST/BLM-02.jpg 
CST reply 
http://www.lermanet.com/CST/BLM-03.jpg 
Memo from CST to BLM 
http://www.lermanet.com/CST/BLM-04.jpg 
Signature page for above 
http://www.lermanet.com/CST/BLM-05.jpg 
Copy of Warranty Deed 
http://www.lermanet.com/CST/BLM-06.jpg 
Letter to Governor King of New Mexico 
According to the above sources, it does not appear that the Vault itself was traded to the US Government, as stated in the article.  My friend Smitty analyzed the above links and came to this conclusion:
"In early 1989, the Church of Scientology, through it's Church of Spiritual Technology arm, proposed to the BLM to acquire certain BLM lands to allow it to, among other things, extend the runway at its Trementina Base. 
They had negotiated informally with the BLM as to how to acquire the necessary land and reached an understanding that if the CST were to acquire lands owned by a man named Orlando Sedillo, that the BLM would then trade to the CST the land that the CST wanted in exchange for the lands purchased from Orlando Sedillo. The CST did NOT own the lands traded to the BLM until the BLM had agreed, in principle, to the exchange and therefore the land traded to the BLM was not the land improved by the CST via the construction of the vault, runway and residential facilities. As late as June of 1990, the traded land was still the property of Orlando Sedillo. The CST paid for an appraisal and a "cultural inventory" of the lands, the BLM agreed to the trade and the land was then purchased and traded to the BLM, with the actual transfer of the land to the BLM occurring on August 24, 1992."
Does anybody have any documentation to support the current Wikipedia article in it's contention that the Vault itself has been traded?  If not, I think that part should be deleted or restated.Os Wilkes 20:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Has the Vault Really Been Traded? 

message: Fascinating article, but I'm having a hard time understanding the wording of the History section. I don't understand the jargon and you're right that the story is complex. What was the premise behind the swap, and what do you mean by "The public interest was served through the completion of this exchange." I wonder if we can provide a plain English summary of the incidents Ubruni (talk) 04:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The items in the bullet-pointed list appear to be summaries and/or titles of official government documents, and "The public interest was served through the completion of this exchange" sounds like boilerplate text which a government official has to include into a relevant document in order for the land-swap between the government and the private owner to go through... AnonMoos (talk) 06:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  History Section is Hard to Understand 

message: The Invention of Sacred Tradition By James R. Lewis, Olav Hammer
:Have you read any of these, or are you fishing for the chunks available via Google Books? (Oh dear, they're obviously using Wikipedia as a source for references "accessed June 5, 2006".) And what is "CRT"? AndroidCat (talk) 08:06, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useful source