Talk:Thomas Rymer

message: #The article currently claims (April 2020) that Rymer went to Northallerton Grammar School, with a ref for a book by Michael Riordan, which is cited a number of times in the article. However, both the DNB00 and the EB article say that he went to a private school in Danby Wiske. I am more inclined to go with them unless anyone can demonstrate the greater reliability of Riordan.
#I intend to add a bit more about Rymer's criticism of that sacred cow, Shakespeare, and how much it riled Dyden and others, including more recently George Saintsbury. I'm with Rymer, personally.
#Once I've finished the Career section, I'm intending to do some work on Foedera. This huge work has a fiendishly complex publishing history, related at considerable length in the prefaces to Sir Thomas D. Hardy's Syllabus vols 1 & 2. The Gentleman's Magazine article, which is cited a number of times, contains a number of inaccuracies and is superseded by Hardy's account. The foot of the EB article also contains an excellent summary of Hardy's thorough and scholarly research, which I think deserves to be brought into this current article.
#The BHO website with vols 8-12 of Foedera is a bit strange. It's good to have Hardy's Syllabus next to the individual entries: but the errata and corrigenda in Hardy's vol. 3 have not been incorporated (I've checked myself), and Hardy is not credited at all. The web pages give the impression that Foedera was actually published along with the English abstracts, which is not the case: this mistaken idea has also crept into the article. The BHO web pages also wrongly state that the Hague edition was published in London, and this error is blithely included in their cites.
#The Victoria County Histories recommend citing the 4th (Record) edition. Hardy demonstrates at length in the preface to his Syllabus vol 2 how faulty and error-filled the entire misguided enterprise was, giving as a small example 50 mistakes chosen at random from Vol I alone.(Hardy, Syllabus Vol 2, p. xix-xx) His thorough and minutely-reasoned 30-page critical dismissal of Clarke's work is masterly and devastating. Hardy hoped to correct the entire published corpus, but when he realised the enormity of the task he wisely refrained from attempting it. As a consequence the manifold faults of the Record edition have never been corrected.
# thanks for your tidying of ref spacing. I've fallen into a particular way of spacing my cite params, which I have done automatically for some time. You have a different preference. There is no particular recommended way. I'm going to continue to do it "my way", but don't feel I'm doing it just to annoy you. Please carry on. :) MinorProphet (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: On the matter of his education, the DNB article by Sidney Lee was published in 1893 and the EB in 1911. The article by Arthur Sherbo in the modern ODNB, published in 2004 and revised (but not this detail) in 2013, says: "For eight years, from 1651 to 1659, Thomas attended the Northallerton Free School kept by Thomas Smelt." – and doesn't mention any other pre-Cambridge schooling. No footnotes, of course, but that looks rather more authoritative to me, especially in conjunction with Riordan. All the sources mention Thomas Smelt, who taught first at Danby Wiske and afterwards at Northallerton; hence, presumably, the confusion. George Hickes appears to have been taught by Smelt at both locations (see this source). If Hickes and Rymer were exact contemporaries (they're described as "classmates" in the article) that may have been true for Rymer as well, but on present evidence I can't comment further. All may be explained in Riordan's book. GrindtXX (talk) 16:18, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Argh, at least three vaguely related Thomas Smelts: Biographical Register of Christ's College 1505 - 1905 Vol 1 mentions the schoolmaster but only in passing. Sir Thos. Hardy, (Syllabus Vol 1 pp xvi-xvii) says in the margin 'Educated at Northallerton', mentions Danby Wiske in the text, but ends "On leaving Northallerton..." Hardy says he received his info from the head of Northallerton Grammar School (note, p. xviii). Hardy (note, p. xvii) also says that Rymer must have been born in early 1641, since he was 17 when he went to Sidney Sussex in 1658. And Educational Records: II Sources for the History of English Grammar Schools (Continued) by W. E. Tate (jstor) says on p. 77 that Smelt taught at the Grammar School from 1652-1686, also mentioning Hickes and John Kettlewell, both non jurors. So if Rymer was born in 1641 and was with Smelt for 8 years until 1658, it seems that he was with Smelt at Danby Wiske for a couple of years from 1650–1652 when they both removed to Northallerton Grammar: Hickes (b. 1642) was previously at Thirsk until 1652, according to George Hickes. So all fits together, and seems to make sense to me. MinorProphet (talk) 21:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The cite for Thirsk and Northallerton in George Hickes is again Riordan: according to Amazon, "Michael Riordan has published widely on the town's history and is the Town Council's official historian." But how accurate is he?MinorProphet (talk) 22:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various thoughts 

message: Attempt to sort out a number of points raised above, citing from the article as of 3 May 2024:
0. Born c1643 (lede) 
1. Thomas Rymer was born at Appleton Wiske, near Northallerton in the North Riding of Yorkshire in 1643,, 
2. or possibly at Yafforth.
3. He was the younger son of Ralph Rymer, lord of the manor of Brafferton in Yorkshire, said by Clarendon to possess a good estate. 
4. The son studied at Northallerton Grammar School, where he was a classmate of George Hickes.
5. There he studied for eight years under Thomas Smelt, a noted Royalist. =  Alumni Database 
6. Aged 16, he went to study at Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, matriculating on 29 April 1659.
0. Date of birth. DNB00, EB1911 say c1642, and Hardy says c.1641, but Sherbo says he was born c.1643, because he also says he was aged 16 when he went up to Cambridge. But according to Hardy, he was definitely aged 17 (septemdecem), although Alumni Database reffed in the article atm says 16.
:"Thomas Rymer filius Radulphi Rymer de Brafferton in comitatu Eboracensi generosi Lit : Gram : per octo annos a Thoma Smelt apud oppidum Northallerton dictum institutus, annos agens septemdecem, admissus est pensionarius minor, tutore et fidejussore Johanne Luke in artibus magistro 29 Ap. 1658."  The foregoing is from the Admission Book of Sidney College, Cambridge, and was kindly communicated to me by the Master of Sidney, through my friend the Rev. H. R. Luard, Registrary of the University of Cambridge. (Hardy Vol.1, 1 p. xviii)  So he was definitely aged 17 (septemdecem), although  Alumni Database reffed in the article atm says 16. But they only cite DNB and Ingledew's Northallerton, which Hardy shows to be wrong.
Using  (NB not the best choice, see also Wikipedia:Age calculation templates): If he had his 17th b/day just before his admission, the latest he could have been born would be eg 25 April 1642, so on , just. 
But if just about to have his 18th birthday soon after admission, the earliest he could have been born would have been eg 1 May 1641, he would still be, on  and say, 51 weeks. 
:Result: Change DoB to c. 1642 with note showing possibilty of birth between early May 1641 and late April 1642.
1 & 2. Place of birth
As per #Various thoughts above, DNB00, EB1911 and ODNB (Sherbo) all say he was born in Yafforth, only Riordan perhaps following Ingledew or  says Appleton Wiske, which is around 11 miles away. Also, Rymer's entry in the Alumni Database is all wrong about place and DoB: cites D.N.B. and Ingledew, Northallerton, who Hardy shows is mistaken: Hardy says that Ralph Rymer, Thomas' father, held an estate at Yafforth and Wickmore or Wigmore, Yorkshire, WHERE?  He shows that there were other Rymers in Appleton Wiske, and that "I think it therefore quite clear that the Rymers of Appleton Wisk are only collaterally connected with Thomas Rymer the historiographer." (vol 1 pp xvi-xvii) On p. xviii Hardy disambigs a different Thomas Rymer at Cambridge, probably again from Appleton Wiske.
:Result: Change place of birth to Yafforth, with note re probable wrongness of Appleton Wiske, ref. Hardy and others.
3. Father. Acad spells his name as Rimer. Discovered more about Rimer, lord of the manor of Brafferton, and also first rented and then bought land at Yafforth."Manors" in  'Parishes: Brafferton', in A History of the County of York North Riding: Volume 2, (London, 1923) pp. 98-103. British History Online. https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/north/vol2/pp98-103 [accessed 28 April 2024]  Will add this to the article w/refs.
4. School
Both Hardy (Syllabus Vol.1, pp. xvi-xviii) and Richard L. Harris say he was first at school in Danby Wiske (like George Hicks) before going to Northallerton with Smelt.
5. Smelt
Educational Records: II Sources for the History of English Grammar Schools (Continued) by W. E. Tate (jstor) confirms on p. 77 that "Smelt taught at the Northallerton Grammar School from 1652-1686." If Rymer was at Cambridge in 1659, having spent "eight years with Smelt" these years would have begun in possibly 1651, indicating perhaps just one year at Danby W.
6. Age on going to Cambridge
Rymer was admitted to Sidney Sussex on 29 April 1659 aged 17.(see point 0.) So he might have been just 17 (eg born 25 April), or about to turn 18 (eg born on 1 May).
:Result: Change 16 → 17 as per Hardy.
Other stuff about John Luke: (not hugely relevant, but no WP article as yet...)
"John Luke, B.D. who became Fellow of Sidney Sussex in 1654, [acad says M.A. 1656] was the second Proctor nominated by the College. He was afterwards Fellow of Christ's and Professor of Arabic."
Described in the Hardy quote above from Sidney admissions book as fidejussore = "guarantor, one who gives surety or goes bail" (uncommon)Whitaker's Words online
"Another university graduate who used a posting to one of the Levant Company’s chaplaincies to pursue the study of Oriental languages was John Luke. Luke was appointed to serve as chaplain to the English factory at Izmir in 1664." ... " How far Luke progressed in his Arabic studies is unknown. He 
evidently knew enough to be appointed as the fourth Thomas Adams professor on his return to Cambridge (this, however, is not to say very much: until well into the eighteenth century the chair was held as a sinecure by men who knew little or no Arabic)."
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MinorProphet (talk) 17:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  DoB and 1st para, 'Early life and education'