Talk:Pashtunwali

message: Melmestia is regardless of religion or race.
Google Marcus Lutrell or read Lone Survivor.
In it Marcus Lutrell, the White Southern, Christian, lone survivor of a Navy SEAL team, is sheltered by a Pashtun tribe under melmestia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.119.125 (talk) 12:59, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Kabuldoorast(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Kabuldoorast&action=view)
, what was wrong with it?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:4A8C:E300:5CBC:50C2:76E8:A75F (talk) 12:00, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: why was the criticism section deleted?

message: This goes to all the misunderstandings below.  If you are not Pashtun, then you will not understand Pastunwali no matter how hard you try, Pashtunwali is genetic, its in our Pashtun blood, we can be hospitable to our enemies and strangers but please do not disect it as if you can proove something, cause in the end we are Pashtuns and we stick together no matter how hard you try to segregate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.245.13.143 (talk) 15:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Trust in Y_W_H/G_D/_LL_H/the ONE/the CREATOR/the ARCHITECT of the Universe  - what is this? RickK | Talk 04:08, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to be similar to the requirement for belief and faith in God that other religions such as Christianity state.  Perhaps it can go without being said, but it is a major tenet, and I notice that several different religions have their name for Diety included, so this may be a way if indicating that Pashtunwali is a cultural ideology rather than a strictly religious institution.  I have some background in comparative religious studies, but no familiarity with Pashtun culture so this is only a guess.  nameless
Somebody needs to decide which is the proper word to use for God.  I've changed all occurrences to Allah, as that is listed first, but I have no idea which is most correct. --Eequor 21:03, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: What is this?

message: As non-Muslim (Christian) Pathan descendant, can we claim to be Pathans if we have lived the code even as we have forgotten who we are?  I am the son of the son of the son of a Pathan; I immediately recognize the spirit of Pashtunwali if not the name.  Am I am Pathan or 'of Pathan descent'?
dear members of Wikipedia !
I as a viewer of your webpage and originally pashtun from afghanistan as I have better information about our culture traditions and know it better so have to admitt that you have mentioned Pashtunwali as a religion , why? its not a religion perhaps traditional laws which are written by elders like Wazir Muhammad Gul Khan Mohmand. its highly respected by the international courts in geneva and they have adopted some human rights laws from it. It is mostly similar under the laws of islam and pashtun people are obeying just one god (Allah) and islam is the only religion in this nation.
hope you correct the sentences wrote about pashtunwali.
thanks
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This article doesn't make any sense. Whoever wrote this was certainly not a Pukhtun. I am a Pukhtun and I can assure you that pukhtunwali has nothing to with God and other religious/philosophical concepts. Pukhtunwali is primarily an honor code and a code of conduct, which is followed by Pukhtuns. It has to do with hospitality, revenge, bravery, pride and the protection of women, property and freedom. I don't have the time to edit this page but someone with a bit of knowledge about Pukhtunwali really needs to redo this page as it is giving a lot of erroneous information.
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As Pashtuns we don't recognize the term Pathan as ours. Not all Pathans are Pashtun. Pathans can be anyone from the surrounding areas of what is known as "greater Afghanistan". Tajiks, Turkmen, Arabs, Uzbeks, Hazaras, Baloch who settled in these areas are also known as Pathans. Rajputs are also known as Rajput Pathans or Rajput Khans. Basically the modern elite of the Pashtun bulk don't care who calls themselves a Pathan or Khan for that matter. But to be a Pashtun certain things are required by them, you must have lived amongst the Pashtuns, know how to speak the language (Pashto), and live your life by (Pashtunwali). The older scholarly elite will out rightly denounce you as a Pashtun if you are a non-Muslim. To them it wouldn’t matter if you even wrote a 1000 page book in Pashto. There are groups of Sikhs, Hindus and Christian in the Sharhad area of Pakistan who speak the language, and are recognized as "Pathans" by locals but amongst the Pashtun they are never considered as equals.
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I don't think any Christian worth his salt could "practise" this code; recognise it yes, but its practise is contrary to Christian principles. Does Christianity sanction revenge ("Badal")? Or feuding? Yes, the old Christian rulers of Europe regularly feuded, but that isn't what appeals to the mind of a modern educated man, influenced by modern European culture. This "code" is actually a state of mind, but where it usually succeeds in leading one can be seen from the general state of Pashtun and Afghan society nowadays (and it has always been like that - except that developments there since 1979 brought it into the international limelight).
As to the usage of the word "Pathan", it is an Indian term for Pashtun/Pakhtun. The person above is incorrect when he says "not all Pathans are Pashtun". That is nonsensical. This name does not apply to Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmen and other Central Asian non-Afghan minorities living within the modern Afghan state. They are known loosely as "Afghans", but never as "Pashtuns" , which implies Pashto-speaker; in fact the term "Afghan" also originally referred only to the Pashtun ethnicity - but came to be used for other ethnicities resident in the state which Afghans (Pashtuns) established - Afghanistan. Similarly here on the Pakistani side, the name does not apply to Indian ethnicities like the Punjabis, Seraikis and Hindko speakers, but many of these try to claim some kind of "Pathan descent", because these Indians/Punjabis have a historical awe of Pashtuns, and have a massive inferiority complex regarding themselves. He is right when he says that only Pashto speakers can be called Pashtun - even though there are many racially non-Pashtuns living among Pashtuns, but who are considered to be "Pashtuns" because they speak only Pashto: like the ethnic Arab or Turkic Syeds, Pirs and Qureshis, etc. Like most ethnicities, but more so in this case, being a Pashtun isn't dependent on one's genes or "caste" as it is the ability to speak Pashto. Thus a number of Pashtuns who emigrated to Hindustan now speak only Urdu/Hindi - having totally forgotten Pashto, and when they refer to themselves as Pashtuns, their brothers in Pakhtunkhwa (the actual land of the Pashtuns) look down upon them with the utmost contempt. Then again, Islam is a separate theme from the basic Pashtun cultural rootstock, but has become so intertwined in the extremist Pashtun conciousness over the past 800 years, that as my "brother" says above, there are no other Pashtuns than Muslim; certainly no "Christian Pashtuns". At least not officially so. The Islamic doctrine certainly meshes well with Pashtunwali and all it implies.
But this man (which I presume is what he is) is right when he says that the Punjabi/Indian Rajputs caste are Khans; for they are descended from the same White Huns who produced the Khan feudal aristocracy among Pashtuns. But not every Pashtun tribe has Khans; and Khans are not original Pashtuns as they so forcefully proclaim, but Turkic "outsiders" who hijacked Pashtun overlordship and the claim to be Pashtun "blue bloods" in a most forceful manner. It goes without saying that a large number of the precepts of the barbaric "Pashtunwali" owe their origins to the Huns, who are reviled the world over for attacking civilisation - and not to the original Indo-Iranian Pashtun society belonging to Gandhara and Sattagydia which the Huns overran and destroyed. Hence the Rajputs display the same marital "chivalry" and indeed also the racial features that their Hun (or "Khan") brothers in the Charsadda and Mardan districts of the Pakhtunkhwa area exhibit. In fact, "Khan" is a Persianised corruption of the word "Hun" - but as it spread for centuries throughout Central and North Asia due to the spread of extensive Hunnish incursions and influences, even the Mongol Genghis Khan had it as his name - although he was not a Pashtun as we all know. Lastly, the writer above says that most of the the modern Pashtun elite doesn't give a damn about whether or not they are regarded as "Pashtun". He is right. Pesonally I am a "Pashtun" Syed from the north Charsadda region, and I don't give a f*** about being called "Pashtun" or not. My cousins are crazy to identify themselves as such, but that is because they are primitive upstarts, and need their heads examining. For me, being a Pashtun implies backwardness, boorishness, uncouthness, violence, thuggery - things opposed to modernity and civilisation - a lot of bad, nasty things I would do without. And if you are a Christian my dear, then you are lucky - and I advise you to remain being one; "Pashtunwali" is the path to, and of, the Devil himself.
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You are right not to give a f*** about  being called "Pashtun". Being a Syed you can earn respect of Pashtuns but still not eligible to be a Pashtun by merely speaking their language. In the south Pakhtunkhwa, particularly in Kurram and Orakzai areas,there is very clear distinction between a "Pashtun" and  "Sayyeds". Sayyeds are usually not expected to follow Pashtunwali. They are respected for their claim to be descendants of Prophet.Why are your cousins crazy to be identified as Pashtuns?? They must be properly briefed about their roots.
There are quite a few other dimensions regarding Pashtun and Pashtunwali.For example it can be classified on 1)geographical,racial,linguistic and ethnic grounds as a group and 2)Social, moral,ethical and cultural grounds as a following.As a set of code of conduct and honour, it is basically a yardstick to measure the confidence, courage,guts,self belief and respect for the time tested traditions. At times one has not only to put at stakes his life but face harsh fueds for generations to uphold Pashtunwali. It is somewhat a test that every self reliant Pashtun is expected to pass through in testing times to earn respect of the community,group or tribe. Calling "Pashtunwali" barbaric would be a bit too harsh. As one of it's traits, to keep your word even at the cost of your life,though a bit rigid but has the universal appeal.
And the good news for my christian friend is that if you have the blood of a Pashtun and recognise the spirit of Pashtunwali as you said then you are definitely a Pashtun. At many instances one finds Pashtuns appreciating some individual from other ethnic groups like a Punjabi or englishman by saying"...a very good Pakhtun(Pashtun)man". It's very obvious that such a statement comes only after they observe or consider that that person's behaviour or action was according to spirit of Pashtunwali.So it's free of one religious beliefs.116.71.222.70 (talk) 21:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Pashtunwali supports all monothiest faiths, not only Islam. For example, Christianity and Judaism are Allah's religions same as Islam is Allah's reigion. Only difference is that people changed Christianity and Judaism but Islam is unchanged. Christ Jesus practiced Pashtunwali and that is well documented.--PosePetal (talk) 13:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pashtunwali & Islam 

message: After reading this discussion i can make out one think, people dont have their facts straight for sure. Let me make it really really simple for eveyone by giving facts which most people, even Pathans ignorant of their roots dont know. I, being a Pathan (Niazi Tribe) myself would like to assure of the following information being as close to fact as possible. 
Pathan VS Pashtun 101:
----------------------
Since pre-Islamic times, the Bani-Israel/Banni-Afghana, tribe had settled in around Mecca as well as at Ghor, what is now Afghanistan. Khalid Bin Walid (One of the Prophet's (PBUH) companion & the first great Islamic conqurer; and belonging to the Bani-Israel/Afghana Tribe settled around Mecca) after accepting Islam he either proceeded in person or sent a letter to his kinsmen of the Bani Israel/Afghana, settled in Ghor, to bring them tiding of the new faith Islam and and invitation to join. 
As a result a deputation of the Afghans of Ghor led by Qais (Later Adbur Rashid, after accepting Islam) met the Prophet at Medina and accepted the new faith. Qais later retured to Ghor to propogate the new faith. He died leaving three sons, Sarbanr, Bitan & Ghurghusht.
From the above mentioned three sons aswell as Karlanr (Being a foundling) we get all the Pathan tribes we know today. Below are some of the famous tribes under each of the three sons aswell as Karlanr:
Sarbanr:
--------
#Tarin
   - Abdali
   - Tor
#Sherani
#Urmar  
#Yusufzai
Bitan:
------
#Niazi
#Suri
#Lodis
#Dotan
#Ghilji
   
Ghurghusht:
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#Kakars
#Mando
#Gaduns
#Safis
Karlanri:
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#Wazir
#Kakay
So as you can see by the details above. The Pathans are a people descending from the above mestioned brothers. What ever language they speak, where ever they live, they are Pathans. 
On the other hand a Pashtun is a person who speaks the Pashtu language (Sister language of Farsi/Persian, itis a local language of what is now know Afghanistan. He may be a Pathan, he may be not. A person from any religion, sect, race can be Pashtun if he can speak the language. Any individual living in Afghanistan today, speaking the language Pashtu will be a Pashtun, but he will only be a Pathan if he is from the above mentioned lineage.
I hope this clearifies a lot. Thankyou.
By:
---
          Asim Khan Niazi
          niazi.asim@gmail.com
       
Information taken from credible sources including "The Pathan" by OLAF CAROE.
Wow please tell me you are joking, did you just make a horrible disticntion between Pathan and Pashtun? Your a lose nut, both terms are interchanebale with eachother. Pathan is just the indian term for Pashtuns while Pashtun is the correct form. The Purest Pashtuns come from Afghanistan, NOT Pakistan, anybody who's tribe is Pashtun and descends from those fictonal brothers you mentioned are pashtuns, while Pathan is an offensive word for Pashtuns. Clearly your Pakistani as your moronic comment indicates while you should know your people are not even real pashtuns but rather former hindus and dardic people who adopted Pashto.Akmal94 (talk) 10:13, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pathan VS Pashtun 

message: This article is written in a very informal, conversational style.  See WP:Style for help in writing an encyclopedic article. --Jpbrenna 06:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: The conventional transliteration of this Perso-Arabic spelling would be Pakhtunwali or Pakhtoonwali both of which are used several times in the article; however, the conventional term in English is Pashtunwali.  I do not know whether this reflects the historical changing of an aspirated voiceless velar plosive (kh) to a sibilant or a difference of pronunciation in modern dialects of Pashto; whatever the case, it should be noted in the introduction, and the spelling Pashtunwali used thereafter. --Jpbrenna 06:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The transliteration problem lies with the spelling of the word in the article. The Pashto letter ښ should be used instead, like so: پښتونوالی. Since     the letter can be pronounced as either an 'sh' or a 'kh,' depending on the speaker's dialect, that accounts for the confusion. I imagine whoever wrote     the article only had access to a Farsi keyboard. Perhaps someone could change the article? Hope that helps. --70.167.226.171 (talk) 17:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct transliteration of  پختونوالی 

message: An interesting, if controversial, article on Pushtuns was published in the Dec 23rd 2006 issue of the Economist magazine (vo 381; 8509) under the title "Honour among them". It may prove useful in referencing points. Andeggs 20:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economist article 

message: I can't believe that Gandhi is quoted as admiring the Pashtunwali philosophy.  I'm sure there are many admirable things about both his own philosophy and about Pashtunwali, but to suppose that Pashtunwali is a philosophy of non-violence is completely misleading and almost funny.  Jackmitchell 19:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gandhi?? 

message: Came across the article from The Beast (1988 film) and fixed some NPOV stuff in the linked-to section, then started reading the rest of the article and saw stuff like What follows below is a typically pigheaded "Afghan nationalist's" confused elaboration in which he proudly tries to embellish this crude and medieval practise and justify it by trying to show gullible Western readers that it is at par with the norms of modern civilisation. Looks like it needs a lot more work than I can do right now, so I'm leaving it with an NPOV tag.
 — J’raxis  ✆✍ 01:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV tag 

message: Does this term have any merit for being included? I had never heard of the term before coming to this page. On Google it only received 556 hits, most of them being for a town in Pakistan by the same name. Also i highly doubt the "pathans" of India practice "pathanwali". The only two terms that should be included are Pashtunwali, and Pakhtunwali. IP198 18:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello! Looking over the talk page, I just now saw that you left this comment. The term is used by the Pathans in India. Please see references such as The Dawn (Pakistan) and Khyber (Afghanistan), for example. I hope this helps answer your inquiry. With regards, AnupamTalk 04:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pathanwali 

message: Is this sentence sourced:"Many of Pashtunwali's most basic precepts are rooted in Mosaic Law." 
I don't think dropping a sentence like this by itself without explanation is a good idea. If it is implied that the two share common roots expand it alot. If it is meant to state they share a common focus/vision/purpose/nature, the sentence should read something like "Pashtunwali's most basic precepts are similar in purpose and authority to Mosaic Law amoung the Pashtun people."
I will change it unless someone has a good reason to keep it the same. --Wilson 15:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that entire section needs a little bit of work. I don't think comparing it to mosaic law and then linking to the article of mosaic law is constructive. I would much rather see a more coherent summary to what aspects of mosaic law pashtunwali is similar, and have them explained without reference to mosaic law. Comparison to mosaic law would suggest that the user has a general knowledge of what mosaic law is, which I doubt the majority do. Alexkreuz 22:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mosaic law 

message: This is a good written article. The discussion between Pathan and Pakhtun or Pashtun are needless. Pushtunwali is also regarded as only "PATHO" in many areas. The point that Pashtunwali is a religion or social law or tradition is still another topic. Al Biruni, writing in Tarikh al Hind, also alludes to the Pashtun tribes of Pakhtunkhwa as being neither Muslim nor Hindu, but simply Afghans which may mean that they practiced Pashtunwali.(1)
What was that religion is unknown. Some say they used to practice Mosaic law perhaps Sabians.(2)
Perhaps the Pashtunwali laws have been taken from Torah or Zabuur (i.e. the Psalms).
1:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquest_of_Afghanistan
2:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tariq5 (talk • contribs) 23:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice and well written article but more authentic contributions and references are welcomed 

message: I reduced the word count of the article by removing some weasel words and academic language.
I tried not to change the meaning.
There is some nice poetic language in this article which I tried to respect.
There is still a lot of cuts and tidying that could be done to make this feel more encyclopedic. Some parts read like an advertisement. And I'm not sure about the phrase "space time continuum."
I took out one "5000 years" because it appears at the top.
I also changed a couple "almighty god"s to just "god."
Hilary Gage (talk) 07:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to go through and edit out some of the passive voice Elwin-bennington (talk) 17:34, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  I edited whole article 

message: I'm somewhat torn by this article.
1. The positives.
- it i beautifully beautifully laid out
- it's interesting, has good links, and is informative
2. The negatives
-not at all neutrally expressed. If the proverbial man from mars were to read he article, he would think afghanistan / the border areas of pakistan was a paradise on earth. And without wishing to get into the history or the politics, they aren't a paradise, nor even close to one. Two examples: Pushtunwali does allow for a blood feud (but also provided mechanisms for resolving such a feud); and it does allow for keeping women in seclusion. In an english language treatment of the subject, this is noteworthy, per the wikipedia guidelines.
Of course these aren't all of pushtunwali, and it's really welcome that the article provides other areas. But really: the contributors here should save themselves endless annoyance; create a seperate section "criticisms made of pushtunwali", and link to a seperate page. It will make all the difference.
 213.200.213.157 (talk) 20:08, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  general feedback 

message: The article seems to promote its subject throughout without really telling the reader much about Pashtunwali. Everyone values "righteousness" and "justice" and "bravery." Almost all of the content should be cut or rewritten. --Nogburt (talk) 22:46, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Issues 

message: User:Mar4d asserts that this Pashtunwali is widely practiced but this is considered unsourced POV. That's like saying that Taliban style rule is widely accepted by Pashtuns and that would be false. As far as I know it is only practiced in some areas and by some Pashtuns.--Fareed30 (talk) 12:49, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: POV pushing by Mar4d

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The paragraph about Nyaw aw Badal (justice and revenge) ends with "Normally blood feuds in this male-dominated society are settled in a number of ways."  I would have expected that the ways be listed but perhaps that's off topic and the sentence could be deleted if it's not essential to understanding Nyaw aw Badal. --Marc Kupper|talk 07:51, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing ending to Nyaw aw Badal (justice and revenge) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Reading this I’m led to suspect there are some violations of NPOV and issues with accuracy. I am unqualified to make changes, but based on the page history and comments below (many of them old), I hope someone can take a look.
A lot of the language seems like it’s describing a university’s admission policy or a social justice activists goals  (for example without regard for race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or economic stats). It does not seem like an ethnic code developed over 1,700 years. The result is that I get a sense the authors are saying “isn’t this just perfect!” Moreover, while I know little about it, news articles on Pashtun culture (specifically describing Pashtunwali’s role in Taliban ideology) have at least indirectly conflicted with some this article’s points.
I’m not suggesting we add a criticism section. I’m merely hoping a knowledgeable individual take a crack at digging through this article. Jgalt87 (talk) 14:35, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality and Accuracy Revisited 

message: I reverted a questionable anon edit.  It looked like editorializing.  If you made it, could you explain it more fully, here?  Please consider creating a wiki-ID.  Geo Swan (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  explanation 

message: A quick check shows that there are different views of the principles. Eg the article doesn' mention that protecting women includes them not being allowed to show their fact to a stranger.
Then there's the "main components" which are 11. That seems to be an arbitrary number, particularly since the main source, Banting, doesn't list 11.
And that takes me to Banting. She's a writer of children's books and fails as a source for this article. Her book was added here as a source but it doesn't actually back the text. This bit of the article in particular is a mess. Doug Weller talk 11:37, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems