Talk:Aneurin Bevan

message: I happen to know, or at least have excellent evidence for believing, that rather late in his life Bevan enjoyed "the good things of life", eg wearing expensive clothes, and associating with old-fashioned noblemen, but I have no references for this. It seems to me an interesting, and to me attractive, facet of his character, and I wonder if anybody can document it? Sgd Seadowns (talk) 12:33, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: He made little secret of his association with the likes of Lord Beaverbrook, and hints of affairs with upper class women were sometimes floated in the tabloids (Bevan and Jennie Lee appear to have had an open marriage in later years). What you thought of all this depended on what you thought of Bevan. Somewhere I still have a little booklet published after his death describing him as "The Beloved Patrician" (given to me by an uncle in the late 80s). Others thought him an appalling hypocrite and gobshite - refusing to wear black tie but instead wearing expensive suits, (allegedly) driving to Chepstow in his Rolls (no Severn Bridge in those days) and then driving on to Ebbw Vale in an old banger.Paulturtle (talk) 03:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Bracken didn't call him the 'Bollinger Bolshevik' for nothing. It's the phrase by which Bevan is remembered and it's odd that it doesn't appear in the article. Nor does Attlee's 1955 comment on the leadership contest, in light of Bevan's attack on Attlee and resulting near-expulsion in March: 'He's so unstable, all over the place, you never know where you are with him. Anyway, he's cooked his goose for the time being and the party would never stand for him.' (Leo McKinstry, Attlee and Churchill: Allies in War, Adversaries in Peace, London, Atlantic Books, 2019, ISBN 978-1-84887-661-3, p.618.) The article is also wrong to claim that Bevan got the whip restored 'due to his popularity.' In fact the NEC would have expelled him from the party, at the instance of Hugh Gaitskell and Arthur Deakin of the TGWU, but for Attlee's pro-unity motion that Bevan should instead be required to apologise and give assurances for future conduct, which won by just one vote. (Op. cit., p.610.) Khamba Tendal (talk) 20:19, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  later life style 

message: I don't understand why there are two identical articles, one called Nye and one called Aneurin Rathfelder 22:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two identical articles 

message: Just to note that In Place of Fear is a book and not a collection of essays. Bevan frequently refers to it as a book, to other "chapters" and so forth. Andysoh 09:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Place of Fear 

message: British, surely. 'Welsh' is not (yet) a nationality in the sense that is clearly intended in the box. Is George Bush, for example, a 'Texan'? I think not! 131.111.88.9 (talk) 15:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality 

message: The part-privatization of the NHS in 1951 was to pay for the cost of Britain's involvement in the Korean War. (HymanFam (talk) 19:25, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Which came on top of other financial pressures on the government and the numbers were pretty small anyway.   You are forming your own conclusion here. Its relevance in the lede is also questionable.  If supported then maybe in the body of the article but not here.   Please make the argument with supporting references and WAIT until you have agreement before changing the article itself.  I've tagged it for the moment but will revert tomorrow unless you come up with something and get agreement ----Snowded TALK 19:54, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a few books which refer to the need to pay for British involvement in the Korean War, which is why Labour had to abandon its plan for a fully-free NHS after less than three years. The Korean War should be mentioned to put the part-privatization in context. (HymanFam (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: (i) If you have a clear reference then provide it, but it will have to be explicit.  (ii) you then have to make a case for it to be in the lede which is not the same thing as the main article (iii) you have to WAIT until you get agreement on the talk page to make a contested change.   I'm going to formally warn you of that and then revert.  Please wait for agreement here before making a change ----Snowded TALK 17:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Korean War 

message: Roy Jenkins argues that Bevan was one of the few political "stars" of the 20th Century, and with Churchill the last great politicians "never to adapt to television", great orators who needed an audience.  However he also considers Bevans cynical support of Morrison against Gaitskell in 1955 and the Spectator Libel trial (where Bevan has been accused by Crossman of perjury) as the "two really despicable performances" of Bevan's life.
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I think the above is supported and more balanced.   I think we probably need to note that Jenkins came from the opposing wing of the Labour Party and/or that his criticisms are disputed by Foot.  Something along those lines is OK.  But the extended and elaborate discussion taking one political perspective is not on.   You might want to consider a sourced article on the libel trial that could be linked from the above.  ----Snowded TALK 07:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your proposal rests on the assumption that there are limited sources and that the accusation rests on Roy Jenkins's "polemical piece".  I am not convinced that this is factually the case, but I suffer from some constraints on my ability to round up additional sources if they are not online.  I propose, however, to do my best to do so.  This will take me a little time, but rest assured that I will be back before long.  Please note that I had already proposed citing the fact that Foot contested the truth of The Spectator's charge, so I was not suggesting to take "one political perspective". Nandt1 (talk) 11:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with properly sourced material as to relevance and notability.   Pending you finding sourced material I am reverting the insert.  No one contested its original removal so that is the default position.  Happy to talk more when you have material.  I'd also repeat my suggestion that you create a separate article on the libel case which can be referenced here.   ----Snowded TALK 19:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Noted.Nandt1 (talk) 11:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed compromise

message: If anybody is interested, the fullest account I've ever read of this disreputable incident is in Brian Brivati's 1999 biog of Arnold Goodman, solicitor to the rich and famous. The truth of the matter appears to be that it was Morgan Phillips, who notoriously could not hold his drink, who made a fool of himself. However Bevan, who resented press criticism which he had received in the past, saw it as a chance to score off the press (in the full knowledge that he was committing perjury). I do have some notes kicking around somewhere but I'm not making any promises as to when I'll ever get round to posting them.Paulturtle (talk) 23:01, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Fuller account

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Aneurin Bevan is virtually unknown here in America, yet I am surprised his most famous quote, circa 1945, is nowhere to be found in either the article or the Talk page: "This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish.  Only an organising genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time."  I have not been able to find the context from which this quote came.  Was Clement Attlee the organizing genius?  Not much online, but perhaps a dusty biography on the shelf of some British library could put these ironic words into context.  British political scholars, you have your assignment! His Manliness (talk) 18:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The speech was made at the Labour Party's annual conference, immediately after the dissolution of Parliament but before the General Election. Bevan meant that the country could afford the socialist programme proposed by Labour, despite Conservative claims that it would all cost too much. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:56, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coal and fish and organising geniuses...  

message: I have removed the following material - "In 1947, Bevan stated: "All I am doing is extending to the entire population of Britain the benefits we had in Tredegar for a generation or more. We are going to Tredegar-ise you." The claim that Bevan intended to 'Tredegar-ise you' is unsupported with any evidence about where, when and to whom Bevan spoke. Consequently, the citation of the claim constitutes an unsupported assertion (Ipse dixit). There is no contemporary evidence for him saying this, and there is also a Swindon version, with similarly nebulous origins. DuncanHill (talk) 18:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tredegar-ise