Talk:Pier Gerlofs Donia

message: I moved the article about Pier Donia from "Greate Pier" to his real name. His nickname is what he is commonly referred by, but it has several variants. "Grutte Pier" (his local nickname) is what he is best known by (if anyone thinks his nickname should be the main article), this is also the subscript on his statue in Kimswerd. All common nicknames now redirect here. JeroenHoek 12:56, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Older comments

message: Hi. At the request of a regular contributor to this article, I have gone through the existing (as of timestamp below) content, making sure that the English usage is correct and befitting of an article of this kind. However, may I please register my opinion, namely that hard, properly directed references are needed, rather than the loose collection of external links which are shown at the moment. I do not feel qualified to do the source directing, given my lack of knowledge of subject, so would be grateful if this could be attended to. Thus the reference tag on the article I'm afraid. Best wishes and good luck. Ref (chew)(do) 22:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You do not need to give or receive "permission" to edit articles. Please see WP:OWN. --Geniac 15:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammatical makeover 

message: What is the evidence that Grutte Pier is descended from the Galama family?  Now that Galema family is deleted, I can see the conmnection from there! Since this is controversial I would like to attach a genealogical note for this too.  GB 23:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Galama

message: Pier GERLOFS is the cousin of Ygo Gales Galama 3 times removed. Use the relationship calculator on langenberg-laagland.com to see family tree. Use Pier Gerlofs and Ygo Gales Galama names in calculator.
Pier is not as far as I am aware descended from the Galama family, just cousins.
Ezza61 14:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Galama - Gerlofs connection

message: *In the Fiveval section there is a block of Frisian language.  It is not clear what is the translation of this - is it the text above or below? 
*Also someone should make the inline citations, to satisfy the complaint embedded in the article, otherwise I think that others will fail the GA.   GB 01:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Suggestions 

message: This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of June 9, 2007, compares against the  six good article criteria:
:1. Well written?: Not well-written: weak prose.
:2. Factually accurate?: Not even close: no references, no footnotes, lots of original research.
:3. Broad in coverage?: Doesn't look like it.
:4. Neutral point of view?: No. Article uses an obviously biased tone.
:5. Article stability? Yes.
:6. Images?: OK.
When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration.  If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review.  Thank you for your work so far. 
—Anas talk? 10:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:a (fair representation):  b (all significant views): 
#It is stable.
#:
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
#:a (tagged and captioned):  b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales): 
#Overall: 
#:a Pass/Fail: 
—Anas talk? 10:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed "good article" nomination

message: :GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:a (fair representation):  b (all significant views): 
#It is stable.
#:
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
#:a (tagged and captioned):  b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales): 
#Overall: 
#:a Pass/Fail: 
—Anas talk? 10:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Checklist 

message: Hi. For what it's worth, and honestly not being hyper-critical (as I have contributed English grammar and spelling checks to this article myself), it is still a long way from qualifying as a "Good Article".
The main failings, in plain English, are:
* that one editor has such a vested interest, through ancestry, that the article will never equalise on neutrality unless it is let loose to someone, or perhaps a group of people, who will NPOV it without interruption (Graeme, you are doing a great job by the way);
* that a promised formatting of referencing by an admin has not materialised. The Printed references and the Internet references need separating, and the method of displaying the references needs to be altered for consistency.
I feel that interested editors need to refrain from putting this article up again at GA until the above major points have been addressed. Thanks, and good luck with it. Ref (chew)(do) 16:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But what about the biased tone?
I think, I don't really understand that. After all, this man was a legendray warrior, often considered the world greatest (mainly in Frisia, where he's folk hero nr. 1 ;).
So explain yourself. For the rest of it; I sure ain't critising it! -)-(-H- (|-|) -O-)-(- 19:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA status comment 

message: I think this article looks like it has been written only for Frisian and Dutch readers. I suggest, in order to improve it, the Dutch and Frisian names should be set to the English words for them. For example; I changed Arumer Zwarte Hoop to Arumer Black Heap. -The Bold Guy- 10:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is fair enough for all the languages involved to be included in the article, even if only as a foot note as it allows alternate names to be used for further research.  Frisian is so similar to English that it is a challenge to make sense of it, although you may have better luck by listening to the spoken form. If the article on Arumer Black Heap returns then it could be translated there. Graeme Bartlett 12:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Administrator User:Neil deleted the article due to its creation by a sockpuppet User:Haggawaga - Oegawagga, who actually contributed several useful if biased articles. If you can find a source you can write it.  Graeme Bartlett 22:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

text: That sounds fairly harmless to me, although a list like that does not sound very useful.  I took a copy of Arumer Black Heap before it disappeared altogether, are you interested in this?  I could put it in my sandbox. Graeme Bartlett 12:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Did you look in my sandbox?  It lost references, but I would not call it crap, just biased! Graeme Bartlett 15:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names 

message: I greatly dispute this articles neutrality. Since the tone is rather biased, I think large parts of the text need to be re-written yet again. It tone thus, needs to be changed dramaticly, or else. Thafadi Adahabou 09:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think you know what you're talking about, you being such a disruptive troll as you are! You hven't even done a single good, valid edit, or you allready start complaining about the works of others, you ! -The Bold Guy- 13:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: I've found some sources claiming his height between 6,5 and 7,5ft, and his weight around 500lbs. -The Bold Guy- 12:11, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 500 pounds sounds too much!  Was the pound back then different to what it is now?  Did you attach the reference to the article? Graeme Bartlett 21:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, the reference actually said he weighed around 400 lbs, and that would make him 100lbs lighter. Also, when we look at his lenght, we see there are many people of about his heigt who are really strong. People such as Giant Silva, The Great Kali, and of course André the Giant. They were all heavier than him, and they couldn't behead people, nor did they work on the land for all there lives. His size was most likely to be enormous, and this way, the Giant of Kimswerd died young aged 40. -The Bold Guy- 13:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, I think not. I've read some sources saying him being that big, so I added the height. And when I visited the Fries Museum museum, I saw his sword. That thing was real big, and when looking more closely at the shaft of the blade, you could see that whoever wielded the blade, must have had a couple of enormous hands. He must have had gigantism, or some other major growth deceases, and that might also explain him dieng young. -The Bold Guy- 17:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pier's height 

message: Wijard Gerlofs Donia, nephew to Pier, just got himself an article and I made it. -The Bold Guy- (talk) 16:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wijerd Gerlofs Donia]]

message: I noticed the following source: Vaderlandsch Woordenboek By Jacobus Kok, Published 1791 J. Allart. The problem is that this is an encyclopaedia with 35 volumes. It's not clear which volume is cited. Baldrick90 (talk) 01:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Vaderlandsch woordenboek

message: Thiz really is one hell of a great article! And Grutte Pier was a real cool guy. But why is this article then B-class and not GA? Angela from the Blue (talk) 14:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to, you can allways just go and nominate the article for GA. But at the moment, I think the article is not ready yet. There must be done some things, like the spelling and typos who need to be fixed first. Make sure these minor corrections are made. That's all. -The Bold Guy- (talk) 10:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cool article 

message: The Vaderlandsch Woordenboek P-R makes no mention of Greate Pier being gay or bisexual or anything similar. The 'sexuality' comments are mischevious nonsense and should be removed.
Angela from the Blue has a history of Vandalism on pages and should truly make a 'new start'.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.206.60 (talk) 10:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can anybody else confrim the addition of the sexuality section?  it seems a bit extreme personally. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 15:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I dont personally have any of his works to independantly verify.  Do you know somebody else who can independantly verfiy? Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 15:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

text: In that case, I am inclined to remve the sections.  They are very very bold assertions and if it cannot be re-verified i have to question it.  I think the anon who started this threads concerns were valid. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 15:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Something does not add up about the section.  Give me a day or two, i am doing some independat research trying to corrobrate it.  Something about the wording of the quote and some other things just dont seem right.  Ill let ya know what I figure out but as of now i am pretty suspicious. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 15:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

text: if you take a picture of the page and upload it, that would be helpful.  please male sure it is legible and leave me a note on my userpage when you do. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 16:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, this info should be removed.  If Donia were gay, there would be reliable sources to point it out.  Since the only reference seems to be in a privately held archive, it fails WP:NOR - specifically Wikipedia:No original research#Neutral point of view (NPOV).  I'm removing the info until and unless a significant source can be found. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's been used as a source many times, can you point to another book, article, webpage, whatever that uses it as a source to state Donia's sexuality? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 18:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I strongly agree with Satyr's removal.  I was going to remove it in a day or to but wanted to assume good faith.  However being bold was probably the most approproiate course of action. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 19:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: After taking a quick perusing through Angela's contribs, i see the assertion of pier's homosexuality has been tied into a plethora of other articles.  I am removing them as I find them. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 19:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sexuality

message: I changed the headers for a couple reasons.  First,  is only supposed to be used on controversial pages - says so right on the description page.  Second, until and unless there's a reliable source that Donia was in fact homosexual or bisexual, there's no reason for this article to be a part of WP:LGBT.  Third, I like  better than .  That's just my 2 cents, though :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 21:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: While there may be some controversy surrounding the man, he hasn't caused much of a stir on Wikipedia.  Before a month ago, this talk page had less than 20K on it.  And the article has been around since 2004.  Take a look at the talk page of a controversial article where the tag applies - George W. Bush, for instance - 57 archived talk pages. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 17:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with satyr here. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 15:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headers on talk page 

message: Regarding the sword of Pier Gerlofs: A curator at the Fries museum told me in 1998 that the sword on display was never actually meant to be wielded as one would a normal sword. It's type was specifically designed to be wielded swinging above one's head when defending battlements, thus attempting to behead anyone who tried to scale the walls. As such, it could be wielded by anyone with sufficient strength and extraordinary height of the wielder would have been a handicap because any part of a man's body protruding above the battlements was a vulnerability.
Pier's stature can therefore not be measured by the size of this sword nor is it very likely that he was actually it's owner. It makes good folklore, though.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.27.16.7 (talk) 10:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pier's Sword 

message: This article is most utterly well written and is of a great and high set quality. It's prose is almost brilliant, it's sources clearly stated, it is of a well to read length and it is well illustrated. It should at least be a Good Article judges by the standards required, and when you would ask me personally I would say it almost fits Featured Article requirements. For weeks, several editors have be working on it and I think their dedication to the subject must be rewarded by having the article pass GA. Cheers for all who have worked on it so well! 86.89.146.118 (talk) 18:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality 

message: May I make a suggestion?
I am responsible for many (not all) of the Dutch text references. These are genuine texts and the associated ‘facts/extracts’ (translated to English) and quoted in the wiki Grote Pier article are genuine. In most cases I quoted the reference and page numbers to assist those interested. All the texts I used are currently available, many electronically. Unfortunately there are very few English texts on Grote Pier and virtually zero that discuss GP in any detail hence the lack of quotable English language references. This is a shame as GP is of significant historical importance to the people of Friesland and is certainly worthy of mention in the English Wiki.
May I suggest that an English speaking editor from the Dutch language Wiki be approached to act as an editor for the English Wiki article on GP as he may confirm for those non-Dutch speaking doubters the authenticity of the Dutch references.
I believe that if individuals are going to critique a wiki article that quotes non-English references then they should be prepared to put in some genuine effort themselves, or find some one that can, to authenticate sources rather than make unqualified comments such as those made by Dana boomer i.e. doubting the reliability of references” when they have obviously not carried out any investigation at all.
Additional info re: GP
In an interesting twist the Landsknecht Black Band responsible for the pillaging of Pier’s village, Kimswerd, were to later literally change sides and left the employ of the Duke of Saxony (who failed to renumerate them) to join their ‘enemy’ Charles Duke of Guelders. It was through this association that for a short time the Black Band fought alongside Grote Pier. It was Grote Pier and the Arumer Zwarte Hoop who would transport by sea the Landsknecht Black Band to Medemblik where a ferocious attack on the town occurred.
…Yes, when I make the addition to the GP article I will quote a reference, unfortunately it will most likely be a Dutch reference.
Ezza61  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezza61 (talk • contribs) 10:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I could not agree with you more! Maybe you could renominate the article for Good Article class and ask another user from en:wikipedia to review it: I am completely sure it'll pass then, for it meets all the requirements and the only reason it was not passed was due to the references being in Dutch and Frisian which I think is no valid reason to fail any article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.170.26 (talk) 10:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch References 

message: In the Rebellion section of the article, it says "The Black Band were notorious as a violent military force; when their pay was insufficient or lacking, would exact payments from local villagers and on 29 January 1515, the Black Hand plundered Donia's village, allegedly raped and killed his wife, Rintze Syrtsema, and burnt to the ground both the village church and Donia's estate." I'm responsible for translating this article to Portuguese and I had two doubts when reading this: first, couldn't it be better to state that "The Black Band (...) they would extract payments..."; and was it really the Black Hand who invaded Kimswerd, not the Black Band again? Black Hand's article says that they were founded in the 20th century, although Donia's article doesn't link to them (maybe that's a reason), could I get an explanation on this?
Thanks in advance, Daimore msg 17:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the Rebellion section 

message: The article was failed quite some time ago by its reviewer and still the tag saying it is a current nominee has not been removed. Is this common procedure or should it have been removed by now? 217.121.96.159 (talk) 18:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No it's not normal. I'll change it. §hep  •  ¡Talk to me! 18:47, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Maybe this is interesting to you: I was just asking on the talk page of the Main Page whether or not this article could be re-nominated now... I was asking whether or not the current reviewers would pass or fail it. If is up to me, I would just renominate it right away, but I would want to here some more opinions of long-time members first. It seems to me, the article would have easily been passed a year ago in its current state, but I bet the reviewers have become more strict since. J.B. (talk) 14:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

text: I do not know. I hope there are, otherwise someone has to make those.  Jouke Bersma Contributions 08:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nominated for Good Article 

message: Is his wife notable enough to make her a small article? Oh, and does anyone have some more images of Pier Gerlofs Donia, for example one of his helmet in Sneek or his sword (or even a replica in Fries museum)... anyone?  Jouke Bersma Contributions 09:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No she is not, she is only getting a mention here because of association with a legendary guy. Are you yourself able to visit Sneek for a photo? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

text: I live nearby - when I find time I will ask if I could make a photo. If not, there are some photos of Grutte Pier's helmet and sword online (at least from replica's there must be).  Jouke Bersma Contributions 08:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Pier's helmet is in the Sneek Stadhuis. When I saw it in 2007 it was not on public display and I had to make an appointment to see it. I have a photo I took at the time of it and Pier's supposed 'treasure box', I will upload it asap. There are some old newspaper articles with images of his sword electronically available - they were taken when his Kimswerd Statue was unveiled, I am not sure of the copyright on the newspaper photos though.Ezza61 (talk) 13:04, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The chances are that those newspaper photos are not available for Wikipedia due to copyright.  But your picture would be great. With all the huge interest in the Grutte Pier, it seems as if Wikipedia should have an illustrator drawing or painting his exploits! Perhaps a reconstruction of someone lifting a plough, or a horse would make a big photo opportunity.  Even a picture of Sneek Stadhuis could be useful. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: His wife

message: how much is known about grutte piers appearence, i mean: his weight? how much did he weigh?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.121.99.139 (talk) 18:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would love to hear from an expert on the subject. 193.172.170.26 (talk) 11:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would guess that back then, people did not weigh themselves.  You are going to have to do some original research, find some forensic evidence such as a skeleton, footprint, sword impact mark on a bone or wood, find some DNA and clone the man. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That would have limitations, though - before we can accept data based on clones, you would need to show that the clone's weight is a genetic attribute, rather than environmental. Perhaps a clone of Grutte Piers would be inclined to lead a more sedentary lifestyle. :)  - Bilby (talk) 11:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Interesting thoughts - a Grutte Pier clone, wouldn't that be quite a sight? He must have been quite a imposing figure. 193.172.170.26 (talk) 12:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appearance 

message: could someone please make an artwork depicting pier gerlofs donia and upload it here that would truly be great we need such an artwork i mean especially with the great interest there is in this hugely interesting figure and the legends surrounding him. could anyone here who sees this request please respond? i mean, if you do not know what to do here then please ask someone else to make it - i mean, there has to be someone who is artistic here. maybe some one who has been contributing to the article is able to make a beautiful and educative drawing or painting or anything similar. a photograph of the exact location of donia's farm would be great, or of the location on which a big battle took place (such as near Hindeloopen were he fought and defeated 300 enemies all by himself), or near the coast of Hoorn were he sank 28 ships - that would be great. at the moment there are just three images and there should be 5 or six that would be fine. then there might be someone who could expand the article some way - it can always get longer (about 30% more text would be fine when there are also more images, that looks more professional and easy to read aswel). More images would make the article better to read and better to look at - some minor spelling mistakes could be taken out. i am especially interested in the suggestion of someone making an artwork depicting donia that would be the best option that was a great suggestion graeme bartlett made i hope this will actually happen and that this is not just empty talk. 193.172.170.26 (talk) 13:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So you are offering the bounty, is that Jouke Bersma? are are you some other anonymous lobbyist? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question... I mean... Who is Jouke Bersma???--Kiyarrlls-talk 23:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  artwork 

message: Shouldn't Grote Pier be translated as Big Pier (or tall or long or something)?  Dutch groot can mean great allright.  However, in the article it says right in the first sentence that groot refers to Piers' size. Zoppp (talk) 23:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add, Zoppp. Trotse Roma (talk) 12:25, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grote Pier - Greate Pier ??? 

message: I have two things to ask:
#Can the image of Medemblik Castle and the Helmet from http://langenberg-laagland.com/histories/greatepierhistory.pdf be used in the article? Are they free to use?
:Well the castle picture certainly looks old, but you need to find the original source, before you can upload it to commons. langenberg-laagland does not relese the material on a free copyright, so assume nothing about the helmet. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If that is true you can put it in Wijerd Jelckama's article. Perhaps the sword went to GP's successor. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two things 

message: In an old history published in 1835 on the history of the Netherlands by Heinrich Leo, Halle 1835, (Zwölf Bücher niederländischer Geschichten, p283f) I found a reference where the burning of Medemblick, Alkmaar and Asperen was attributed to the Black Band - after its return from French service, chiefly at Marignano - to the Duke of Gueldern. Some research showed that Johann Samuel Ersch, in his Encylopedia, repeated the same story in his entry for "Egmont, p253f" (http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/dms/load/toc/?PPN=PPN345284054&IDDOC=141451). He even tells the story that the population of Asperen was slaughtered because the Bands had some 1500 casualties during their assault. They may have used the same original source, though.
Given the background of Pier Donia, I find it hard to believe that he would have fought in any way alongside the Black Band. Can it be that the atrocities on Dutch towns are wrongly attributed to the Arumer Zwarte Hoop? Alternatively, that this unit is actually just another name for the Black Band in the service of Gueldern? Is there any information available in Dutch that explains in detail the contribution of the Black Band from 1515 onwards? 
ASchudak (talk) 22:35, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Arumer Zwarte Hoop and the Black Band 

message: Substituted at 02:57, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified