Talk:Iram of the Pillars

message: Zelda hasn't commented on the reference to Khayyam. I've removed and copy it below:
... and the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:
:Iram indeed is gone with all its Rose,
:And Jamshyd's Sev'n-ring'd Cup where no one knows; (1859 version)
 – Kaveh (talk) 00:49, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Omar Khayyam]] on Iram of the Pillars

message: At the beginning, the article states that Ubar was founded around 3000 BC, but later on, the date of 900 BC is given.
1984 NASA Challenging imaging was Side Looking Radar.  These are not photographs.  These images, when combined with image processed LandSat and SPOT data helped substantiate presence of the ancient caravan routes partially buried by sandd dunes and seen by earlier ground forays (1920's not 1953 as reported).  These images did not show buried cities!
Nicholas Clapp's book's copywright date is 1998, 1992 as reported.
Four subsequent excavations were conducted by Dr. Juris Zarins, then of SE Missouri State University, that traced the historical presence by the peoople of 'Ad, assumed ancestral builders of Ubar.
Why is this listed among "fictional cities" if it in fact did exist?
--217.127.191.232 (talk) 15:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: the city name is "Aram; آرام" in arabic not Iram or Erum...
the semitic group name "Aramaeans" came from this city (Aram: Aram Damascus)..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.114.154 (talk) 16:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  name of the city 

message: I have read that the Qu'ran says Ubar was destoyed by fire.  Is this so?  Or are the quotes given in this article the only ones from the Qu'ran that deal with Ubar? 86.150.97.35 (talk) 10:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Destroyed by fire? 

message: This article is a right old mess.  The confusion/conflation of Ubar/Iram is made worse by this article!  I've tried to take out some of the non-encyclopedic tone material - a lot of is isn't cited but I haven't removed it as I don't know too much about the subject. 86.138.46.145 (talk) 09:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. It seems we have mentions of a people called the Iobaritae from classical times, of a city of Iram from the Koran, and great expansions on the city of Iram from later legend (eg the Arabian Nights). The article doesn't really explain how the connection was made between the Iobaritae and the city of Iram (or how Iram and 'Ubar' were identified), however, or how the Shisar archaeological site was identified with either (or both) - presumably it is in the region ascribed to the 'Iobaritae', but if so the article doesn't actually say so.  Vultur (talk) 19:56, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  What a mess 

message: I agree that this article is confused. I think it is shame that this topic has been dealt with under the title "Iram of the Pillars" because the case for Iram being Ubar being Omanus Emporium being the "Atlantis of the Sands" is not compelling. 
ArabianLeopard (talk) 07:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I would too! It is utter - sorry for my language - idiocy to have these two articles about what is really the same lost place! 146.90.0.47 (talk) 23:19, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Atlantis of the Sands

message: This page is a mess. It mixes archaeology with mythology and makes assertions without any reason or source. It is a mix of myths and legends, using a religious book as base. No pillars and nothing of a city indicating that it is Iram has been found. The entire page is based on a sentence in the Koran and the 1978 article in National Geographic, where it says that a tablet excavated in the city of Ebla contains the name of Iram. No pillars, no details whatsoever, which makes this pure speculation.WilliamBillyB (talk) 23:14, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a page worthy of Wikipedia 

message: Besides the fact that Henry Stewart Edgell says it isn't true, I found " T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) called the vanished city “Atlantis of the sands” in his 1926 book Seven Pillars of Wisdom" - well, that book is searchable, and doesn't mention it. So I've removed it for the time being. Once I get Edgell's article I'll probably replace it saying it isn't correct. Dougweller (talk) 12:53, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  TE Lawrence 

message: I think we need one article, not this article and Atlantis of the Sands, as they are all really about a "Lost city of the sands". We certainly don't need this article - as Edgell says, "However, the Qu'ran does not state that Iram was a city, and "lofty pillars" is simply one interpretation among many of the phrase dãti °l-cimãd". I'll try to work on this over the next few days. Dougweller (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Way forward 

message: I suggest moving the "Identification with Ubar" (including photos), and most or all of "In Fiction" to Atlantis of the Sands, and adding a link from Ubar to Atlantis of the Sands with an explanation why.  Then this page would remain for the referance to Iram/Aram in the Koran, with a links to/from Atlantis of the Sands as a possible if unproven link.  Currently this page conflates -- a reference to Iram or Aram in the Koran; "Ubar", whatever that might be; and the ida that the site found in Oman in 1991 near Shisr might be the same place as both or one of Iram of the Pillars and/or Ubar.  Each of these three things can be addressed in different pages in Wikipedia with appropriate links between them.
ReedHedges (talk) 18:32, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move all Lost City stuff to "Atlantis of the Sands"?  Separate Iram, Ubar and Lost City stuff. 

message: Let's stick to the facts. There is no evidence that Iram is associated with "Atlantis of the Sands" or any other city. In fact, the only appearance of Iram in archeological records that this article has ever presented is mentioned in the December 1978 National Geographic reference that was removed by Dougweller as he stated: 
"National Geographic not a reliable source, tablet was "Iram dagan" meaning "Dagan (a god) loves"". 
Thanks to Dougweller for inspecting it. 
So the article should only contain the known references to Iram, which are, as WilliamBillyB said, "a sentence in the Koran and the 1978 article in National Geographic". These are the only two elements that this wiki page stands upon. We need a decisive reference (expert opinion I guess) that would decide whether Iram in that tablet has anything to do with the Iram in The Quran. If there is no relation, then the Quranic reference should return to its normal long-held status, i.e., unknown reference. That is until some archeological finding can be linked to it in the future.
Also, Iram should not be confused with the "City of a Thousand Pillars" or "Atlantis of the Sands" or others. At best, they should be put in the 'See Also' section.
--3omarz (talk) 05:51, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I more or less agree, except that I think that we'd need a very reliable source associating the tablet with the Quran to include it. And thanks for the compliment. :-) Dougweller (talk) 06:21, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  the National Geographic reference 

message: The talk page of this Article looks like a talk page (as it should).  But the Article itself could be mistaken for a talk page (which ought not to be possible).
CBHA (talk) 22:00, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It would easily survive an AfD, but do you have any practical suggestions? Dougweller (talk) 07:26, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.  Sorry no practical suggestions to offer.  CBHA (talk) 16:24, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

text: Hello! I do have several suggestions (after more than a year, but hey, better latter than never). First, I think the lead should be changed to something that reflects what the name Iram means, and the different interpretations it has had. As I understand it, at its most basic it is a Islamic tradition which may be based in the ruins of the several ancient cities that dot the arabian peninsula (I personally always thought that Iram was born when the beduins confronted abandoned cities like Palmyra and tried to give then an explanation, and the pillars make reference to the striking columns that are many times the only vestige of old buildings, but my personal opinion does not have a place here). This tradition was later received in the Western world, in two main contexts: the scholars seek to understand what the name means and if might have been related to some real world location, and the fiction writers have used it as magic place. I have written a proposal below, but as I am not a native english speaker, I will not edit it directly:
"Iram of the pillars is a location mentioned in the Quran (89, 7) as having been destroyed by an act of divine punishment, similar to Sodom and Gomorrah in the judeochristian tradition. 
(Here I would put the quote itself)
The obscurity of the quranic quote led to many debates already among medieval Muslim exegetes about the nature of Iram, as it is not immediately clear  if the name refers to a city, an area or even a particular tribe.
In islamic folklore, the name became associated to several myths and legends about cities lost in the desert of the arabian peninsula, and appears in One Thousand and One Nights in that sense. Since the nineteen century Iram has gained some popularity also in western culture: In academic circles the original debate about the exact nature of Iram and its possible location is still alive, while the name has become something of a staple in works of fiction, like those of Lovecraft, Clive Owen or Neil Gaiman as an archetypical magic city lost in the sands of Arabia."
With the introduction out of the way, I would add four sections: Iram in the islamic exegesis, Iram in folklore and mythology, Scholarly View/ Interpretation and Reception in popular western culture.
This kind of oversees the attempts of locate Iram, but I think that can be just noted in passing, as the "Atlantis of the Sands" page already covers most of that issue. 195.53.233.213 (talk) 15:12, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this an Article for deletion? 

message: The article uses , but for some reason ends with "translated by" without any name. I don't know if it's a mistake in the use of the template or in the template itself (and I can't find usage documentation for the template). Does anyone know how/where to fix it? Zeniff (talk) 01:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "translated by"...who? 

message: The current article misses out a lot - the identification of Iram with Damascus (probably because of Columns and Hiram), it's identification as the palace of King Shaddad, etc. I actually agree with the suggestion made above that it should be recasted.
I have found for instance this which says, among other things, "Commentators and historians were to argue hotly about whom, or where, Iram might signify and how the disaster came about. Iram occurs as a tribal name of ‘Adites, who were in Northern Arabia as well as the Yemen.5 A sober reappraisal by Ibn Khaldun (d. 808/1406) suggested that a disaster which befell an affluent urban society, or even a nomadic group who lived in tents,6 was the true subject of this lesson of scripture, not a specific folly.But, correct or incorrect, his reinterpretation was already too late. As early as Wahb b. Munabbih al-Yamanl7 (d. 114/732), the verse was seen as an allusion to the exploits of Shaddad b. ‘Ad, a mythical conqueror of lands between Morocco and Tibet. In Marib “he built the noble palace which is named by some storytellers ‘Iram of the columns’”. The fabulous abode was a storehouse of riches. Its floors were of red and white marble.8 “Beneath it he placed cisterns and conduits down which poured the water of the [Marib] dam.”"
Or this by Bruce Fudge, an expert on Arab literature now at the University of Geneva. (as it's on JSTOR I can get it). 
William Jones, Robert Southey and William Coleridge are among Western writers who have mentioned it. Doug Weller talk 19:34, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite with "Iram in the islamic exegesis, Iram in folklore and mythology, Scholarly View/ Interpretation and Reception in popular western culture." 

message: I just added that section if anyone has any note please reply to me here before you make any change,thank you.  SharabSalam (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:   Islamic Hadith section 

message: I have removed the above template from the In fiction: Literature sub-section. My understanding is that fiction books serve as their own reference for their plot details, and there can be no doubt that the seach for Iram is a major plot point of Easterman's novel. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.179.175 (talk) 09:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Citation needed" on The Seventh Sanctuary