Talk:Monophysitism

message: This article was redirected to miaphysitism, and the redirect was reverted with the suggestion to have a merge discussion. This initiates that discussion. Vexations (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge of Miaphysitism with Monophysitism 

message: 1. Are there any reliable sources that the Oriental Orthodox Churches can still be considered Monophysite? If not then mention needs to be made in the article when exactly the Oriental Orthodox Churches first disowned the term. I believe it was in 1973.
2. Are the mainly Africa Christians who still boast Monophysitism Acephalic? Chouvrtou (talk) 21:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions

message: The article is currently balanced inasmuch as it expresses the historical and the ecumenical and the non ecumenical and the modern Oriental Orthodox points of view with equal weight. Please ensure it remains balanced and do not bring different arguments out of their sections to cause imbalance. Thank you. Chouvrtou (talk) 23:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Balanced POV

message: I will be removing any opinions and unreferenced inferences. 
What one sect claim the other to believe in does not count as reliable evidence. It is an opinion or interpretation.
"Modern Oriental Orthodoxy" does not, historically (from the references - see reference to the notes from the councils), seem to be different from Historical Oriental Orthodoxy. What seems to have changed is how they are labelled by the Chalcedonians.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe9y (talk • contribs) 01:19, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is not about the term Miaphysitism. It is about how Monophysitism has been used throughout history. It has been used to refer to many people and many sects. We don't want to give undue weight to just two of those things like Eutychians or Miaphysites because those articles already exist elsewhere. Religious and political topics often raise the temperature a bit but I really don't think insults are the way forward. The wiki consensus has rejected the  idea that Monophysites and Miaphysites are the same thing and the articles will not be merged. So please don't carry on trying to push that idea. The Miaphysite article is free for you to explore if you prefer to deal with Miaphysitism. The confusion of the two things throughout Wikipedia is a very large project which needs to be cleaned up. It starts here. Chouvrtou (talk) 14:04, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Where have I insulted you? I absolutely do not agree with merging Monophysitism and Miaphsyitism pages together as they are two completely different Christologies. Where have I said that I want to? What I absolutely reject and will not accept is any stipulations without any credible references. It is fair enough you removed a reference to another encyclopaedia but you can't then go and reference another encyclopaedia yourself to support your own view.
Study Eutyches and you will find that he truly spoke of "the absorption of the human nature but he divine which leaves us with only one nature, i.e. the divine". I don't think you understand that a lot of your edits ARE confusing monophysitism with miaphysitism. If we truly wish to make it clear that these are two different Christologies then it is useful to make this clear on the page, which with your edits at the moment is not clear. Joe9y (talk) 15:18, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of references and balance 

message: Recent edits have disrupted the balance of the article.Thus must be rectified at earliest possible convenience. The article is not about Eutychianism nor the historically recent term Miaphysitism. Moreover, any references to Oriental Churches prior to the 20th century as Miaphysite must be proven by an historical source. Chouvrtou (talk) 07:32, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You have got to be joking. You are not doing precisely what you are accusing others of. Just because historical references are there that you don't like, doesn't mean you can ignore them. Minutes and letters from the councils and epistles circulated between the churches are all historical references that were added. The Liturgy of Basil of Caesarea is a historical reference. The Original Greek transcript of Cyril of Alexandria is a historical reference, which you can see is where the word "mia" and "physis" are from. The article had the most balance it has ever had before your edits today. Proof is in the fact that those historical references are cited plus BOTH Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian sources. WHERE ARE YOUR REFERENCES?!Joe9y (talk) 12:51, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

text: I did not write all of it but the justification is in the references.  Chouvrtou (talk) 18:12, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Balance lost

message: I have removed this clause about Severians from the article for discussion:
:(known also as Verbal Monophysites, because they disagreed with the wording of the Council of Chalcedon, not with its substance, unlike the Eutychians, who are also called Real Monophysites)cite book|author=John D. Hannah|title=Invitation to Church History: World: The Story of Christianity|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=daamDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA153|date=26 March 2019|publisher=Kregel Academic|isbn=978-0-8254-2775-6|p=153
Despite the request to distinguish from Eutychianism and to avoid giving any more weight to Eutychianism it was inserted apparently in the face of thise requests. If however it can be established in a reliable source that Docetism and Julianism were not "really" come from Monophysites then we can put it back in. 
Chouvrtou (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What have Docetism and Julianism got to do with this question?  The examples given by John D. Hannah (Invitation to Church History: World: The Story of Christianity) were Severians (Verbal Monoophysites) and Eutychians (Real Monophysites). The same distinction is mentioned by Bischoff and Lapidge (Biblical Commentaries from the Canterbury School of Theodore and Hadrian, p. 11) and Hans van Loon (The Dyophysite Christology of Cyril of Alexandria, p. 33). None of them mention Docetists or Julianists in this regard. Reliable sources, not our personal opinions, are what counts on Wikipedia. Do you perhaps deny that Eutychians are considered Monophysites?  Do you perhaps imagine that the only people who have been or should be called Monophysites are those who are also called Moderate Monophysites and, indeed, Miaphysites?  Bealtainemí (talk) 19:56, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

text: In your opinion, Chouvrtou, "Eutychianism can not truly be considered single-nature ... It is a perfect example of Miaphysitism". Many disagree with you and state that Eutychianism is a form of Monophysitism: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Does anyone agree with you?  Bealtainemí (talk) 14:00, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Mentioning the Eutychianists in this article is not creating a fork, any more than mentioning the Miaphysites creates a fork. Both these groups are of such importance in the context of Monophysitism that exclusion of mention of them is what constitutes a problem of WP:WEIGHT. Bealtainemí (talk) 20:36, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Mentioning is enough, thank you.  Bealtainemí (talk) 14:26, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Chouvrtou, the fact that Eutychians are called Real Monophysites is triply sourced, at least. Your objection is only your opinion.  WP:OR.  Bealtainemí (talk) 09:19, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

text: It is a norm of Wikipedia and of good manners to assume good faith. I assume yours. Without cited sources, no matter at what length and how persuasively one argues on talk pages, one cannot get one's original research inserted in Wikipedia. For such arguments there are blogs and discussion groups. See WP:NOT Bealtainemí (talk) 10:56, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Real Monophysites

message: Is there such a thing? Who says there is? It sounds as impossible as "prolix brevity".  Bealtainemí (talk) 14:26, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering the ambiguity I would suggest that every reference to eutychianism as monophysite might equally as well be intended to mean Miaphysite, i.e. unclear. Why? Because Eutyches unlike the Docetists or Julianists for example actually brought a human nature into the mix while others were truly single-nature christologies. No one can know for certain. It is only a matter of Religious dogma that decides otherwise, but there is no historical factual basis to distinguishing it one way or the other. As far as I can see it is as bad as picking and choosing at whim.Chouvrtou (talk) 16:34, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

text: I don't know of any sources that agree with your (to my mind abstruse) argument. Sources are not lacking that speak of the two as not only not identical but as opposites: 1; 2; 3. Surely on Wikipedia we must follow what reliable sources say rather than put forward original ideas about a supposed Eutychian Miaphytism.  Bealtainemí (talk) 18:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

text: That source says certain Miaphysites came close to the views of Apollonarius, who was explicitly condemned by Eutyches. You have thus cited yet another source that declares Eutychianism and Miaphysitism to be opposites. To speak of a form of Miaphysitism that can be called "Eutychian Miaphysitism" is an absurdity, and should be dropped.  Bealtainemí (talk) 20:37, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Chouvrtou, doesn't the source say that certain Miaphysites came close to the views of Apollonarius? Yes or No? Doesn't it also say that Eutyches condemned Apollonarius? Yes or No? If yes, how can you claim that the source shows that the doctrine of Miaphysitis and that of Eutyches (rather than of Apollinarius) are alike?  As for your statements about other views of yours, they are of no importance for Wikipedia, which does not accept original research.  Bealtainemí (talk) 09:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Eutychian Miaphysitism" 

message: It seems to me that there are a few conflicting opinions all stemming from different understandings of the words Mono and Mia.
1) One position is the semantic position or simple reading position would be that since Mono means 'single/alone/solitary" it should be taken literally to mean that and therefore any kind of Christology like Apollinarius or Eutychianism which allows for a drop of another nature to be incorporated in the original divine nature can not truly (even if practically) be called Mono phusitism because such Christologies in reality incorporate some kind of mixing. The rational mind allows us to see that Docetiam is an example of this position. 
2) Another position is the practical position that although Mono means single/alone/solitary it should not be taken literally to mean that and therefore allows for a more mixed sort of nature as described by Eutyches and Apollinarius. This mixing occurred at a specific point in time i.e. when the divine nature came down from Heaven and took some element of humanity from creation and absorbed it thereby changing (even if only as a drop of oil or vinegar into the sea) its original purely divine nature. Any rational brain could call this a practically Monophysite position which is also open to criticism as a kind of Semiarianism since the nature was changed slightly from the father's at a specific point in time and was not always existing in the same condition. However 20th century ecumenical politics has lobbied to get this referred to as "real" Monophysitism (although Mia is a better word for this sort of "one") in order to scapegoat momophysitism and unite the churches on the basis of a Chalcedonian interpretation of the word Miaphysitism. 
3) Similar to the previous position, another position is the anti-historical position that literal Monophysitism (e.g. Docetism) never really existed and that every Oriental Orthodox Church has always been called Miaphysite throughout history. Just like the word Mia refers to a type of one which might not only mean single but could also mean a compound one so we should also understand that Mono was used no matter how inaccurately in the same general and practical sense meaning that anything called Monophysite can also be called Miaphysite but the word Monophysite is to be reserved for types of that sort of Christology which have clearly and unequivocally been condemned while the word Miaphysite should be used for those types of the same which have not been condemned and are not likely to be under the current divided but ecumenical nature of the Church. Very simply, Mono = bad but Mia = good. Don't call anything good Mia call it Mono and vice versa.
4) Similar to the preceding position is the non-ecumenical position that the two words are synonymous for the same set of heresies but there is no such thing as a good Miaphysitism or Monophysitism. Both words should be mreged into one article because they are the same thing. 
5) Another position is that Monophysitism should be merged with Eutychianism because it is the same thing. 
6) another anti-historical position is the categorically-semantic position which would say that Eutychianism and Apolinarianism and any kind of Chalcedonian Miaphysitism can never be considered Monophysite because they allow for a human nature to be present which negates the whole meaning of using the word Mono. All such sects could be called by the more ambiguous term Miaphysite (which can also apply to the word Monophysite) instead but only Christologies like Docetiam shoul be called Monophysite. 
Is there still yet another position which I have failed to notice? Of these 4 and 5 have been abandoned. I think Joe9y is 3 and Bealtainemí is 2. For this reason we should all abandon our positions and choose a compromise neutral position of either 1 or 6 or re-visit the merging option for the article. I will certainly oppose position 5.Chouvrtou (talk) 07:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That is all original research, for which there is no place in Wikipedia: WP:OR.  Bealtainemí (talk) 09:12, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Even if on a talk page you were to convince all others, you cannot then insert your original research thoughts in the relative article. What you need are reliable sources that actually state what you want to have included, not arguments about what the sources "really mean".  Bealtainemí (talk) 11:05, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

text: , are you Chouvrtou under another name (since you speak of having yourself categorised someone's position correctly)? Whether you are or not, wouldn't it be a good idea to make some concrete proposal that we could discuss for or against?  Bealtainemí (talk) 14:47, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Mono vs Mia

message: From now on all Bad Fath edits will be reverted. Bad faith means ignoring repeated requests concerning (for example) WP:WEIGHT and WP:FORK and WP:OVERKILL. If you have a problem with it either engage with thoughts in the comments or bring in an independent mutually approved mediator. Chouvrtou (talk) 10:42, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that part of what you reverted without attending to the reasons given included a serious typing error by me, for which I apologize. Before repairing the damage, I intend to pause for at least a day. Perhaps it would be good if you did the same.  OK?  Bealtainemí (talk) 11:12, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

text: , do please join in the discussion. A fresh voice would surely be helpful.  Bealtainemí (talk) 14:32, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad Faith Editors

message: Thank you User:Bealtainemí for your recent edits and for taking on board my criticisms. The current form of the article is very good. There are just a few sentences which I think are POV-pushing (not enough emphasis that single-nature Monophysites with no kind of admixture have always existed because Christ's humanity has been considered by such as entirely divine in origin) which can be addressed later on. Also Heraclius needs to be included so I will insert a sentence now which needs to be backed up later but I am focussed on other things this week so not going to do that now. Nevertheless, I will try to defend the current version of the article from any idiots who decide to come along and mess it up so please notify me if someone tries to destabilise the hard-won consensus that we have achieved. Keep an eye on it. I will be watching too. Chouvrtou (talk) 11:06, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: General Consensus achieved

message: Unless I'm missing something, the introductory paragraph seems to not be grammatically correct, and ends with a quotation mark despite having no opening quotation mark.
Omitting the etymology, the introduction currently reads: 'Monophysitism [...] is a Christology that states that the person of the incarnated Word (that is, in Jesus Christ) there was only one nature—the divine".'
Should this read: '...is a Christology that stays that IN the person of the incarnated Word...'? 
Or alternatively: '...is a Christology that states that the person of the incarnated Word (that is, in Jesus Christ) was OF only one nature—the divine".'
Secondly, where, if anywhere, does the opening quote begin that ends '... —the divine".' at the end of the paragraph? 121.200.4.64 (talk) 01:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errors in introductory paragraph