Wikipedia talk:No personal attacks/Archive 1

message: :Yes, I read that on the mailing list (along w a good bit of other content here ;). RE: "Is being called an anti-semite hate speech?" you say "it is hateful speech that targets a stigmatized and victimized and therefore vulnerable group." Wouldn't that include anti-semites? Arn't they stigmatized, etc.. ? I know you prob. think I'm missing the point, but I'm not. Hate speech rules amount to censorship, and the premise behind them is racist. Minorities are not better than anyone else, and deserve no special rights. Past abuses have not earned them right to special protection in my eyes. I oppose the concept at every level. Sam [Spade] 19:52, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. I do feel that Wikipedia:No personal attacks should be enforced. I just don't agree w the 1st class citizen status given to some by these sorts of hate crime rules, w folks like me (w no obvious minority or protected group status) relegated to 2nd class citizenship. Making me feel like a colored in S African apartied fails on every level in achieving the goals you should be shooting for here, namely a friendlier working environment. Sam [Spade] 20:00, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Well thats interesting. I still don't think we need a new rule, but rather better enforcement of the existing policy. Sam [Spade] 14:42, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, uh, yeah - David Gerard 15:49, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Perhaps I've commited an act of hate speech thereby? Off to the gulag w me I suppose... Good thing you don't allow dissent, that might cause you to suffer thru all sorts of "convoluted" thinking. Sam [Spade] 23:50, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Again w this apologism BS? When will you people figure out I'm not apologizing for anything. The polite way to not listen to be is by not talking to me at all. When you say something, ignore my response, and reply w your mangled interpretation of what you think I might have said, its not nearly so much fun as if you'd be so good as to just ignore me completely. I'd imagine WHEELER might just do a Two Step if you decided to ignore him for a while ;) Sam [Spade] 04:34, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: There is a reason I titled this thread the way I did. I'm sorry if you don't appreciate my levity, but then I did ask you to ignore it, didn't I? Trying to take jokes seriously is what I call sarcasm ;) Sam [Spade] 17:23, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: "Is being called an anti-semite hate speech?"

message: Sam equating himself with "a colored in S African apart(h)eid" because he is *not* a member of a group subjected to discrimination and hate speech is highly convoluted thinking. I suspect that "a colored" from South Africa would be deeply insulted at the comparison and by Sam's logic that being called a racist is as bad as racism itself and that racists are being discriminated against by being called racists just as much as an oppressed group is being discriminated against. AndyL
:Perhaps I've commited an act of hate speech thereby? Off to the gulag w me I suppose... Good thing you don't allow dissent, that might cause you to suffer thru all sorts of "convoluted" thinking. Sam [Spade] 23:50, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Again w this apologism BS? When will you people figure out I'm not apologizing for anything. The polite way to not listen to be is by not talking to me at all. When you say something, ignore my response, and reply w your mangled interpretation of what you think I might have said, its not nearly so much fun as if you'd be so good as to just ignore me completely. I'd imagine WHEELER might just do a Two Step if you decided to ignore him for a while ;) Sam [Spade] 04:34, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: There is a reason I titled this thread the way I did. I'm sorry if you don't appreciate my levity, but then I did ask you to ignore it, didn't I? Trying to take jokes seriously is what I call sarcasm ;) Sam [Spade] 17:23, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Ignore this

message: For the record, I stand opposed to hate speech, but I do not believe that a rule prohibiting hate speech is the appropriate remedy.  All too often "the rules" are a vehicle through which "right-thinking" individuals impose their will upon the disenfranchised members of society, and I want no part of that.  Rather, I believe that the best remedy for bad speech -- and the only *true* remedy -- is good speech.  "Obviously, physical threats are out of place, as are impugning someone's race, gender, or nationality, . . . but even those [situations] should be judged [on a] case-by-case [basis]."  Indeed, absent a clear and present danger of immediate and irreparable harm, there is no reason whatsoever to censor the ramblings of bigots.
"Even if I am technically wrong, and enough can be squeezed from these poor and puny anonymities to turn the color of . . . litmus paper; . . even if . . . the necessary intent were shown; the most nominal punishment seems to me all that . . . should be inflicted, unless the [accused] are to be made to suffer not for what the indictment alleges but for the creed that they avow -- a creed that I believe to be
the creed of ignorance and immaturity when honestly held. . . ."  // NetEsq 23:20, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say! Sam [Spade] 00:26, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a personal comment, not a content comment and qualifies as a personal attack: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." IF a comment is about a user, it is a personal attack. Furthermore, saying a user is "brilliant and eloquent" in a sarcastic manner means the user is NOT eloquent and NOT brilliant. --AI 09:41, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Respond with more speech, not more rules 

message: how does that look now? i did it in a hurry so probly needs a good copyeditproof-read. Erich 07:11, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: major fiddle

message: This article is getting a horrible case of instruction creep. It should be about half the length it is now. I may start hacking very soon. Anyone else is welcome, of course - David Gerard 13:28, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[m:Instruction creep]]

message: I've mentioned this on Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy but figure I should bring it up here as well - what would people think of the following:
:At their discretion, and only after warning the user, sysops may use temporary blocks to enforce a “cooling down” period for users who repeatedly make personal attacks. Blocks made under this policy should be short term – one to three days normally, and a week at most. Sysops blocking under this policy may not block users for making personal attacks in the course of disputes that the sysop is involved in, and especially not for personal attacks made against them, unless the personal attacks also constitute clear and unambiguous vandalism (i.e. replacing their userpage with “U SUCK!!1!1!!”). 
Snowspinner 13:23, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
::As this is taken verbatim from Wikipedia:Blocking_policy/Personal_attacks#Proposed_policy, lacking only the first sentence of that section, and as that proposal failed to gain consensus, it seems clear that we already know "what would people think of" this. 
::As that proposal failed, and as Snowspinner knows that, he being the author of that failed proposal, why try for a "second bite of the apple" here? -- orthogonal 07:44, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed ammendment

message: So what is End result of this? more then two weeks have past, it is still on the page. And still says if it passes more then two weeks it will be a policy. It is policy or not. Or will it require more discussion? Zain 00:20, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary

message: I have been accused three times of making personal attacks, undermining other contributors' credibility, ridiculing contributors outside of Wikipedia. Other contributors got really angry with me and I defended myself in Wikipedia. I have to admit that I once, and only once, copied a statement by a Wikipedian ridiculing another Wikipedian to a forum outside of Wikipedia. I have apologized for this. Should there be rules for this? Thanks Andries 09:45, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I think outside wikipedia is outside wikipedia. It will even make many senetors, president, diplomat having no right to edit wikipedia. think of john kerry flip flops. And many other things. Almost all politicians will be banned. All laywers will be banned. probably all judges will be banned too. Because they declare a particular person murderer or theif. And it will go on. I think every body has done some personal attack in his life. This will make every body blocked form wikipedia. I think it should be limited to wikipedia. Zain 00:28, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal attacks outside Wikipedia on contributors of Wikipedia

message: The project page should indicate the consequences for personal attacks. The page currently gives reasons why they are bad, but no warning of what will happen if one commits personal attacks. Hyacinth 19:02, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed! Catherine\talk 04:16, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't think you're going to get put in a dungeon for it, but I suggest it would be better to leave accusations of another editor's intentions out of it, and to concentrate instead on the validity or otherwise of the disputed points. Tyrenius 04:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Consequences

message: See: Template:No personal attacks, intended to be used on talk pages by third parties during disputes which include personal comments and attacks. Hyacinth 03:38, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Template

message: David Gerard noted the tendency toward Instruction creep, but I think this is worth mentioning.
There are some Wikipedians who seem to be chronically incapable of resisting personal attacks.  When called on this problem, their response is often 'Personal attacks are the only way the offenders will listen to anybody'.  The problem I have with this is that there is nothing in the NPA policy (to say nothing of common sense) that justifies this viewpoint.  Person 1 will never pay more attention to Person 2 just because Person 2 decides that it is necessary to use a personal attack.
Thus, I think that this sentence: The assertion that the other party is unable to understand any language other than a personal attack is no justification for a personal attack, should probably be added to the policy.  I personally consider it a simple corollary of current policy, but the rest of you may disagree.
What do y'all think?  →Iñgōlemo← talk 04:18, 2005 Feb 24 (UTC)
:A rule of no personal attacks covers this. No personal attacks means no personal attacks, and there is not justification for them. Tyrenius 04:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should we add this comment? 

message: If telling lies or calling people bad names can count as personal attacks, would it also count to tell the truth about another editor by revealing their real name or personal details? I recently saw a dispute in which one editor appeared to be taunting another one by repeatedly using his real name, yet I didn't see anyone commenting on it. I may have misinterpreted the actual facts but it serves as an example. Can an editor be "attacked" with the truth?  Or is that type of behavior covered in another policy? My own username is semi-transparent, but other users value their privacy more highly so that revelations, or even threats of revelations, could be intimidating to them. -Willmcw 06:42, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
:To me the most important criterion to deciding if something is a personal attack/generally acceptable is this: if the "attack", whatever its form, was made for malicious purposes such as insult and/or intimidation, it qualifies as a personal attack.  →Iñgōlemo← talk 07:05, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)
Options added in the policy on the  10 Sep 2004 (UTC) and not yet validated by the community (if no objection before 2 weeks, will be considered approved). If you disagree with those propositions, please comment below or in the talk page.
(objections in Talk)
Objections having been made by several users and two weeks having passed, these changes are not considered approved. -- orthogonal 07:51, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Real name and personal details 

message: :Since this has not got consensus, I think it's better to keep it on Talk: until it does. — Matt Crypto 01:41, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed policy addition

message: This page needs some sort of severe decrufting - something that's fundamentally a commentary on the phrase "No personal attacks" shouldn't be this long. I've tried tweaking the intro paras to be as uncompromisingly terse as possible, to bludgeon the point home. Those lists are cruft magnets, but probably needed I fear. Ideas? - David Gerard 15:47, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The part between Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. and the reiteration Do not make them. is about as simple as can reasonably be expected. The first list serves a valuable purpose, I agree, even if it's sometimes disregarded. The second list might be trimmed. —Charles P. (Mirv) 15:57, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Decrufting needed

message: Would it be useful to stipulate explicitly in such a policy that its implementation necessarily involves perceptions of justice, equity, and equality?
I must be forthright to say that I have not read every single sentence on this talk page, or for that matter, all the policies that are on Wikipedia. However, I have noticed consistently that in developing policy, definitions are quite important. One attempts to arrive as practical as possible the core of what constitutes a particular infraction. Then, one uses this as a framework or a basis to determine whether the particular incident necessitates a particular action. This is done through an evaluative comparison. This is intrinsically not necessarily objective, subjective, or otherwise, as perception is involved. Furthermore, this perception is initiated by choice, not necessity - it is also modulated by a variety of factors which are external to Wikipedia; complicated enough that one cannot hope to formulate a policy which is completely fail-safe. However, it is noble that Wikipedia provides forums and various other mechanisms to get close to achieving this ideal.
As much as one would like to formulate a "no personal attacks" policy that is broadly applicable, I am not sure if this policy should primarily strive to answer "yes" or "no". Perhaps it would be judicious to say that personal attacks are highly/strongly/vehemently discouraged, and that people who choose to engage in personal attacks in any form are subject and held to responsibility for their actions. The policy then stipulates a number of things which people should be conscientious of if they choose to make such remarks. These would include at minimum all the points which have already been discussed and summarized on the policy page at the moment. The idea is to present these in a manner which emphasizes the negative consequences carrying out a "personal attack" and how this is detrimental and contrary to the aims of this project and the individual.
To foster an effective "no personal attacks" policy, one does not need to say "no" explicitly. Instead, one presents a situation where it is highly undesirable to do so because of the weight of the consequences. This will lead to behaviours which ultimately will serve a "no personal attacks" policy, but in a manner which is still all inclusive. There will inevitably be Wikipedians who would not want a policy which states an explicit "no" for "personal attacks". From these perceptions, the complexity of Wikipedia does not warrant and cannot support a policy which appears objective and classifies actions and consequences in black and white. Hence, the reason why there is some reservation towards such an explicit "no" policy.
There are situations where a want or need of delivering reciprocacy will occur. What we can reasonably assume here is that such a choice is rational from the perception of the Wikipedian, and hence their choice to choose a specific behaviour online can be held accountable with respect to this policy. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that the diversity of Wikipedia users is so large. This creates a situation where the multitudinous perceptions of justice, equity, and equality will be at conflict with each other - especially situations where "personal attacks" may seem justified. What this policy can do is state the prescence of this perception explicity - (complementary to existing "no personal attacks" policies) and illustrate that initiating a "personal attack" invites unnecessary complexity, problems, or even burden on the part of Wikipedia, and Wikipedian for the reasons given.
For a "no personal attacks" policy to be effective, it is highly necessary to recognize the needs of the project as a whole, and the needs of the individual. If both are aware of the perceptions involved, then we can reasonably trust that it will reach an equilibrium where the policy can reasonably grow and foster, and that in cases where there are infringments of it, it can still be addressed effectively by the systems that have been built up over the experience and lifespan of the project.
I would like to state that this is only an opinion, one which may be flawed, but one which I think contains ideas which could be adapted or modulated so it can improve the current policy on "no personal attacks". I hope the result of presenting this would foster an evaluative dialogue, one which perhaps could improve the community of this great online project even further. --HappyCamper 14:03, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perception 

message: this diff http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nickptar&diff=20599589&oldid=20581238 shows a user insulting me, or so it seems to me, but not even  to my face... should this be something for consequences or should it be something to ignore, im  not to fond of being considered crazy, im even less fond of people who do not insult me to my face.  what do you think should be dme?Gavin the Chosen 10:29, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It contains at least one personal attack: referring to you as "nut-job." That's as far as I needed to read. [User:Hamster Sandwich] should be corrected first by referencing this policy (WP:NPA) if that doesn't work, this official policy states that Wikipedia contributors can remove the personal comments."Many Wikipedians remove personal attacks on sight."WP:NPA#Consequences Official Wikipedia policy"If you are personally attacked, you may remove the attacks or may follow the dispute resolution process or both."WP:NPA#Remedies Official Wikipedia policyIf that doesn't work, then you have a problem which is Wikipedia's problem as evidenced by the RfArb which resulted from my removing personal attacks. Basically I was made into the "bad guy." Outrageous! --AI 09:04, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: not sure

message: In its first mention of removing personal attacks, WP:NPA stresses "although this isn't policy" and refers readers to a the lengthy guideline WP:RPA.  This is misleading and confusing. Removal of personal attacks is supported by the official WP:NPA:#Remedies:"If you are personally attacked, you may remove the attacks or may follow the dispute resolution process or both."WP:NPA#Remedies Official Wikipedia policyIf you are going to confuse newcomers, don't subject them to harsh treatment of an RfArb just because they make some mistakes in applying a lengthy guideline. --AI 09:06, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: AI, you were told several times that WP:RPA is a disputed/controversial guideline. I don't understand how you can claim that you were confused when this fact was pointed out to you directly. WP:NPA says that personal attacks may be removed, and points at WP:RPA for further details. That's all there is to it. WP:NPA does not approve the removal of any and all comments that someone might consider "personal". --MarkSweep 17:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: MarkSweep, I am asking you to cease trying to influence my interpretation. How may times I have been "told is irrelevant.  Official policy WP:NPA states "may" which means "can" and in the United States, legally, "may" means "shall". --AI 21:01, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I disagree. If we don't want people removing personal attacks then WP:RPA should not even be mentioned in WP:NPA. Why bait confused and stressed-out users who have already been subjected to personal attacks?! Confused new users are being abused by "savvy" users who forget to assume good faith and seem to enjoy baiting and biting the new comers with their own opinions and interpretations. Of course if you want an insane asylum, we can leave it this way... --AI 21:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever we say here, WP:RPA is a guideline, and a disputed one at that, not a policy, so anyone who removes a personal attack, or a comment percieved as a personal attack, may well take heat for doing so, and should be warned. Putting anything on this page will not prevent that. On the other hand, a good many people do use WP:RPA, and until and unless there is wide consensus not to do that (and i see no short-term prospect of this, although I would prefer it personally), we should document that, and again, new users should be warned that this might happen. Sorry if this may confuse some uers but the situation is inherently confusing, I fear, and any attempts to declare one simple rule on this page will be simply wrong. DES (talk) 21:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading