Talk:Silesia/Archive 1

message: 1) In my opinion Polish version of the article about Silesia is much better and free of German bias, but I am not going to insert it here, as it is quite long and easily available. (This a response to Niko's statemant that he likes the German version most).
:: I didn't insert the whole article, just the introduction and historical section. By the way, where can I find the Polish version? It's actually quite difficult to find it. S´la?sk didn't work, and Schlesien was redirected to Schleswig-Holstein (I tryed to correct it) Nico 19:41, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  German, Polish, Czech and English articles 

message: I think the German article is much better than the English, mainly because it's free from Polish revisionism and nationalism.
Schlesien (poln.:Śląsk, tschech.:Slezsko) war ehemals mährisch, gehörte zum piastischen Polen, zu Böhmen, zum Heiligen Römischen Reich und zu habsburgischen Österreich, zu Preußen, Deutschland und ist heute ein zu Polen (teilweise auch Deutschland und Tschechien) gehörendes Gebiet an beiden Seiten des Ober- und Mittellaufs der Oder.
Schlesien wurde vor zweitausend Jahren von germanischen Wandalen, Silingern, Lugiern etc. bewohnt. Es wurde als Magna Germania zwischen Oder und Weichsel beschrieben. Teile Schlesiens wurden von Kaiser Arnulf von Kärnten dem mährischen Herrscher als Lehen gegeben.
Im Jahre 963 wurde das Land zwischen Oder und Netze von Kaiser Otto I. als Reichslehen an Mieszko I., den später so genannten Piastenreich (Geschichte Polens) gegeben. Es wurde unter Herzog Kasimir I. wieder selbständig. Der Stamm der Silinger (s.o.) gab dem Land den Namen Silesia, Schlesia. Weitere deutsche Besiedelung erfolgte im späten Mittelalter. Es entstanden wichtige Städte wie z.B. Breslau. Der südöstliche Teil um die Städte Oppeln und Kattowitz heißt Oberschlesien, er hatte im Unterschied zu Niederschlesien bereits vor 1945 eine deutsch/polnisch sprechende Mischbevölkerung.
Im 16. Jahrhundert wurden Staatsverträge zwischen Schlesien und Brandenburg-Preußen abgeschlossen, wobei Schlesien beim Aussterben der schlesischen Piasten an Brandenburg-Preußen fallen sollte. Die Habsburger HRR Kaiser brachten Schlesien aber in Habsburger Besitz, als 1569 der letzte schlesische Piast starb. Nach dem preußisch-österreichischen Krieg zwischen Friedrich II. und Kaiserin Maria Theresia wurde der größte Teil Schlesiens 1742/44 preußisch, ein kleinerer Teil um Troppau (heute Opava in Tschechien) blieb österreichisch.
Nach dem Wiener Kongress 1815 wurde Schlesien eine der zunächst 10 Provinzen des Staates Preußen, wobei Teile der bisher sächsischen Oberlausitz der neuen Provinz eingegliedert wurden. Provinzhauptstadt wurde Breslau.
Mit der beginnenden Industrialisierung wurde Oberschlesien mit seinen Steinkohlebergwerken zu einer wirtschaftlich wichtigen Region.
Nach Ende des 1. Weltkriegs kamen Teile Oberschlesiens an Polen, obwohl vorher der Ausgang einer Volksbefragung für den Verbleib bei Deutschland war. Die verbliebene Provinz wurde 1919 in zwei Provinzen aufgeteilt, Oberschlesien mit der Hauptstadt Oppeln und Niederschlesien mit der Hauptstadt Breslau. Österreichisch-Schlesien kam nach dem ersten Weltkrieg zur Tschechoslowakei und gehört heute zu Tschechien. 1938 wurden beide Provinzen wieder vereinigt und 1941 erneut geteilt.
Nach dem zweiten Weltkrieg wurde ganz Schlesien von der Sowjetunion erobert und erhielt polnische Administration, bis auf ein kleines Gebiet um die Stadt Görlitz.
In den Jahren 1945/46 fand eine gewaltsame Vertreibung der deutschen Bevölkerung statt. Lediglich in Oberschlesien verblieb eine kleine Minderheit. Statt dessen wurden Menschen angesiedelt, die von Stalin aus ehemals ostpolnischen Gebieten gewaltsam umgesiedelt wurden.
-- Nico 16:43, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  German article 

message: There are 2 main versions of the location of Silesia in the introductory paragraph:
1) Silesia is a province of Poland, located in the south of the country between the Oder and Vistula rivers. 
2) Silesia is a province in south-western Poland and north Czechia/Czech Republic, located along the upper and middle Odra/Oder river. 
First I cannot see by any means why Silesia should be described as lying between Odra and Vistula. If you look at the map it is clear that Silesia lies on both banks of the Odra river, and the information about Vistula is very misleading.
Second there's still a considerable part of Silesia that belongs to the Czech Republic, and this also should be clearly stated in the intoduction.
Third, I don't think that we should tell the reader about the Goerlitz area in Germany - these regions are historical parts of Lusatia and were joined to Silesia in 1815-27, fro a relatively short time, when the Lusatia was disbanded and distrubuted among Brandenburg, Saxony and Silesia.
Grzes of Poznan (caius2ga) 21:23, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro paragraph: location of Silesia 

message: After 20 years of historical studies and research, this is my summary of Silesian history in the last millenium:
9th century: the area of future Silesia was inhabited by various Western Slavonic tribes of "Sleenzane, Dadodesani, Opolini, Lupiglaa, Golensizi" and maybe others. The Sleenzane and Opolini were the strongest tribes and leaders of the federation (and gave name to the whole region), which was probably part of Greater Moravian State, but this in not sure.
The name of Silesia was limited to future Lower Silesia, while the future Upper Silesia was called Opole land. The boundary between these two areas was the great cutoff in the forests.
10th century: The Silesian and Opolian federations were in the Bohemian/Czech sphere of influence. In ca. 990 Silesia was occupied by Mieszko I of Poland. In year 1000 this annexation was confirmed by the Emperor and the Pope by establishing bishopric of Wroclaw belonging to the Polish ecclesiastical province of Gniezno. Probably at this time the name Silesia was extended also to the the Opole region.
1038-1050 Silesia belongs to Bohemia. In 1054 the Emperor decides that Silesia belongs to Poland, but the Polish dukes will have to pay tribute to Bohemia. The tribute is payed to ca. the end of the century.
1050-1335/48 Silesia belongs to Poland. In years 1085-1092 Vratislaw II(I) is crowned the king of Bohemia and Poland. In years 1138-1320 Silesia is semi-independent duchy being a political and economic leader in the unification of Poland. The Silian dukes are sure they have the right for Polish crown becauce their are the olded branch of Polish monarchs. Henry IV dies in 1290 almost having achieved the Polish crown. The dukes invite new settlers from Germany. In a letter to the Pope in 1312, the German citizens of Wroclaw have no doubt that theit city lies in the Kingdom of Poland.
1300-1306 Venceslaus II and Venceslaus III are kings of both Bohemia and Poland. The following years witness a controversy who should be the Polish king: Luxemburgs of Bohemia or Ladislaus of Cuiavia (crowned Polish king 1320). The matter is decided in the treaties in 1335/1348. The Bohemian kings resign their claims/rights of Polish throne and retain most of Silesia. The Polish kings retain the Polish crown and resing their claims/rights to Silesia.
1335/48-1742 Silesia belongs to Bohemia, and from 1526 to the Austrian Habsburgs. There are some attempts by Polish kings to re-gain Silesia, but they have no long-time effects. Every pretender to the Polish crown from 1386 to 1771 has to make a promise that he will make everyting to get-back the lost lands (Silesia nd Pomerania) to become a king of Poland.
1742-1945 Most of Silesia belongs to Prussia and later Germany united by Prussia. Small areas in the south-east remain in Bohemia and Poland. After WWI and a popular plebiscite Upper Silesia is divided between Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia. 
 from 1945 most of Silesia belongs to Poland as a result of Allied powers decisions after World War II. Small portion of Silesia belongs to Czechoslovakia and later Czech Republic.
As you can see the history of Silesia is primarily a Polish-Czech controversy, and have little to do with the German state (it is even cotroversial what what was the German state).
1) It is true that Silesia had a significat and increasing ethnic German population, but this the same in the other ptrovinces of Poland and Bohemia. Ethnic relations cannot be extended to political relations.
2) Silesia was a province of Bohemia(Czechia) and/or Poland most of the last millenium, and was never a province of Roman Empire. Silesia belonged to the Roman Empire, but always as a province of Poland and/or Bohemia. Belonging to the Empire is not the same as beiing a province of the Empire.
3) Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation didn't exist before the 16th century, so the any such remarks to its existance in early Silesian history are simply false.
4) Roman Empire, and later Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation should be considered as supranational political bodies consisting of independent states and nations and cannot be linked to any one nation or state.
Grzes of Poznan (caius2ga) 17:18, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  To which countries Silesia belonged ??? 

message: In my opinion history of the Roman Empire is very interesting, but it should not be discussed in the introductory paragraph os Silesia article.
First of all it was initially Roman Empire (and not German Empire or the RE of the German Nation). Around year 1000 and in the following centuries there were two political ideas behind the concept of the Empire.
1) Renovatio Imperium Romanorum represented by Otto III
The political idea was the restoration of the ancient Roman Empire which should cover all Christian world, and consist primarily of several equal elements: Kingdom of Germany, Kingdom of Gallia (France, Burgundy), Kingdom of Roma (Italy), Kingdom of Sclavonia (Poland, Bohemia, maybe Hungary)
2) Renovatio Imperium Francorum represented by Henry II
The political idea was the restoration of the ancient Roman Empire which should cover all Christian world under the hegemony of Germany.
History of the 2nd millenium in Central Europe is the history of competition between these two ideas, among the other important matters. The name of Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation was introduce in 16th century nad was the victory of the second idea.
In my opinion history of the relations between Silesia, Bohemia, Poland, Germany and Roman Empire, is very interesting, but it should not be discussed in the introductory paragraph of Silesia article. 
Grzes of Poznan (caius2ga) 18:12, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silesia and Roman Empire