Talk:African diaspora religions

message: Just wondering, but is there a reason this isnt listed as "African-American Religion"??? I'm just not familer with the term "afro-american"... american's with afro's? I think the page should be moved to African-American, but then again since I'm not sure and unfamiler with the term I thought it should be brought up here for discussion.--MacGyver07 11:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: African American is a US-specific term.  The Afro- prefix, like the Euro-, Sino- or Anglo-, is perfectly acceptable and widely used (see Afro-Guyanese, Afro-Latin American, Afro-Trinidadian); in this context "American" refers to the Americas, not the US.  Guettarda 12:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: We have made what we believe are important changes to the Afro-Religions pages, yet they are 
automatically deleted (reverted) without cause.  We have added one of the most basic cosmologcial concepts and divine tenents ineherent in all African traditional and Diaspora religions which is Ancestral Veneration, yet it was deleted without cause.
We have added 
. . . New World traditions often masked for their survival . . . However, many in the Diaspora are resorting back to the traditional orthodoxy of their ancestral religions no longer finding a need to mask them.
Which was delete without cause.
We have included the other African traditional religious practices in the Diaspora such as:
Mami Wata 
Vodoun 
Ifa 
Orisha 
Akhan 
Kemet (Ausar Auset) 
Santería 
Rastafarianism 
Spiritual Baptist 
Islam/Black Muslims 
All of the above were delete without cause.
Wikipedia has invited others to expand this "stub" yet it is being reverted back without cause. Please explain why these changes are not acceptable and how they are in violation of Wikipedia's three pillars neutral point of view, verifiability, and citing sources.   Thank you  Anagossii--MWHS 12:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason, explained in the edit summary, was that you were disrupting the article by breaking good links. It's good that you try to follow the wikipedia policies. Now try to respect the Manual of style too. Please use the "show preview" function instead of frequent "save page", and always add an edit summary (just look at the article's history. Regarding the disruptions of links (which you did again, thus breaking the 3 revert rule), you have changed replaced good link Arará with red lnk Arará (West African Vodoun). Changed U.S. Southern states with red lnk Across the United states (whatever enciclopedic meaning that may have), changed Nation of Islam (which, indeed, would not belong here)  with Islam/Black Muslims. You added links that would qualify as self pomotion. You overpopulated the list by duplicating entries to a level of detail that is simply not justified by the purpose of the list (of course there are a few people practising Santeria in the US, but Santeria is specifically Cuban, it suffices if it shows up under Cuba in the list). Normally even sloppy edits are corrected, not reverted, but when they are combined with self promotion, lack of explanations and persistance in error, straith reverting is much more likely to be applied. Finaly, please don't overemphase the talk, it only makes it more difficult to read, and sign using four tildas:~~~~. Again, please read the manual of style, fill in edit summaries, don't disrupt previous edits.  Qyd 13:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: PS: FYI, Ghana is not on the American continents, so it shouldn't show up in this list. Qyd 14:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Very well. You could start by fixing the red links that i pointed out (as you could see, I haven't reverted your edits once the discussion started). Self-promotion: I meant adding Mami Wata as a separate religion, when it is just a part of (probably) Voudou. Moreso in [your edits] to Ifá, a clear spamlink which you add persistantly. And believe me, there's no loss of patience on my side, on the contrary. Frustration yes, sometimes when I see you ignoring advices (add edit summary, use a sandbox instead of multiple sucessive edits, don't break 3 revert rule, etc) (click blue links for more info). - Qyd 15:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: PS: the discussion about anything othe than the article should best be taken to your or my userpage, I will leave this here for now, as I see you read this.
Fair enough. I am still working on understanding (not ignoring) the sand box, advice page, and other resource pages. Wikipedia is a bit complex to follow, vision problems not withstanding.
FYI: Mami Wata is a separate  and distinct religion period. One can be initiated to Mami Wata and not the Vodou. The reverse is also true. Women are the dominate clergy in that they initiate the men,but the reverse is not true. Also, adding the Vodoun and other websites to the Ifa page is not a spamlink. It is critical to actually include as many of the Diaspora religions whose divinatory systems depend  upon Afa/Ifa as possible. The intent is to change the all prevailing misperception that Orunmila only speaks to the Orisha and Egun of the Yoruba. There is considerable controversy as well as to its actual origins in West Africa. Although the "Yoruba" are (rightly) credited with its introduction, there is questions of what groups have been excluded that originally made-up the now "Yoruba" clans.  Finall, there is no need to "spam."  West African Vodoun does not recruit nor proselytize.  As many are turned away as are called. It is a tradition of strict orthodoxy which is not for everyone. There simply is no need to "pimp" the religion. However, there is a great need to understand it, even amongst the different practitioners of the various tradition, who (unadmittedly) believe prevaling Hollywood stereotypes. We honor and respect
our religions and our only goal is to present them accurately and from our own perspective, as much as possible, as is accorded other groups.
=== Mami Wata is a separate religion?===
"Mami Wata is a separate and distinct religion period"
On that I can't agree. Does it have a different cosmology? Differnt gods? Different belief system? It is simply a different church, and this kind of dissemination is common in many Afro-American religions. Where would we get if every umbanda church or Candomblé Temple for example would claim a place for as a distinct religion. And please don't tell me you are unbiased. Your user name, Mwhs, stands for Mami Wata Healer Society. I can understand that your religion is very important to you, but try to understand the greater purpose of this encyclopedia. What I'm trying to avoid here is having an obscure movement taking over the focus of articles. That's my point of view, and I would appreciate if you tried to understand it. Qyd 20:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleting changes made to Afro-Religious pages

message: "Mami Wata is a separate and distinct religion period"
On that I can't agree. Does it have a different cosmology? Differnt gods? Different belief system? It is simply a different church, and this kind of dissemination is common in many Afro-American religions. Where would we get if every umbanda church or Candomblé Temple for example would claim a place for as a distinct religion. And please don't tell me you are unbiased. Your user name, Mwhs, stands for Mami Wata Healer Society. I can understand that your religion is very important to you, but try to understand the greater purpose of this encyclopedia. What I'm trying to avoid here is having an obscure movement taking over the focus of articles. That's my point of view, and I would appreciate if you tried to understand it. Qyd 20:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mami Wata is a separate religion?

message: Anagossii (MWHS), I appreciate that we all make mistakes when getting familiar with wikipedia, and I'm happy to try to explain some things you may find a bit tricky. Ask a question about this article here, or a general question on my talk page if you like. However, Qyd is right — some aspects of your editing style are likely to annoy other editors if you continue in the same vein. Especially when you are new to editing, listening to other editors is vital. Discussion and consensus on the talk page should precede any controversial changes, and is more likely to achieve lasting results than continually reverting back to your preferred version (also known as edit warring). Please use edit summaries (the little box above the "save page" button) so that other editors know what you are changing.
As for the content, I have to agree with Qyd that Ghana is not Afro-American and does not belong in the list. I also think that is it enough to list the countries where these religions developed and predominate. i don't think an extensive list of religions in the US section is helpful. Immigrant communities worldwide may practise these religions, but it is counter-productive to list every country. To give an analogy, the Portuguese language is also spoken in the US, but to list the US in the list of countries where Portuguese is spoken would be misleading. ntennis 02:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am still working on the summary issue. It is a  bit confusing for me. In fact, when I view the summary instruction page, it is actually blank. If you can offer an example of what I would place in the box, I will get-it.  The section on Ghana I agree should be removed. However, I do not agree at all that the categories in the US section should be changed. The subject heading is "Afro-American Religions," which includes all of the Afro-Diaspora religions not where they originated, but where they are currently being practiced which includes the USA.  African religions are the birthright of the African-American Diaspora, and many are  returning to these traditions in record numbers.  This section must reflect this current reality.  The African-American community can no longer be  omitted or excluded as if their presence does not count.   This is both a travesty to their ancestors and a denial of the many who have returned to their ancestral religions, many are even stronger in their commitment because of the history in America of their suppression.  I will remove the Ghana category. It does not belong. Thank you for your civility.  Anagossii--MWHS 04:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the feedback. You are correct concering serveral points. Namely adding Rastafarianism and other religious traditions not brought over by Africans to America. You can revert the page. I will clean-up the additions that I have made, and present them here for discussion, and the correct way to include them.  Anagossii--MWHS 13:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New additions to article 

message: I would like to change the word "loa" in the table to vodou (as "loa" seems to be primarily a Haitian thing, and for other the reasons cited above). Qyd, you rightly pointed out that the word "vodou" may be confusing, as the word links to the religion, rather than to spirits. However the article does explain in the lead section that the word can refer to "individual spirits or deities". Will you accept the change from loa to vodou? Perhaps you have other proposals/modifications to help clarify it? ntennis 06:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I got bold and made the change for now. Am very open to changing it again! ntennis 06:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was worried that the links to either vodun or loa would be misleading, having them in unlinked form is a great solution. --Qyd 12:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  Congratulations! The table looks great, and it is inclusive of all the ATRs in the Diaspora.  I know this must have been a challenge and we commend you. However, there is one  historical point that I would like to make. The category for  Vodou's  origination lists Dahomey and Mythology. I am not sure what the  Mythology represents for the religion, and do not believe that it is appropriate.  The Dahomean government (Benin) has historically made exclusive claims as the home of the  Vodou religion for political and economic reasons which are too detailed for this discussion. However,the Vodou  religion is one of the original indigenous religions of Africa, and is estimated to be as old as 10,000 years. This clearly predates the existence of Dahomey, who in truth are not the sole “originators” of the Vodou religion.  As an ancient “un-syncretize” religion, the Vodou is indigenous to many countries in West Africa to include, Togo, Southeastern Ghana (Anlo-Ewe), Burkina Faso, Sierra Leon, Senegal, and many other regions.  These regions are also where many Africans were taken and enslaved in the New World, and should be included.  I (or you) can include them to offer a more comprehensive and accurate portrayal of the Vodou religion. I also think that the countries courrent name “"Benin should be used and “former Dahomey” placed in parenthesis. Thank you for the hard work you are doing.  Anagossii--MWHS 22:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Loas or voudou

message: :We have made what we believe are some important historical changes to the Vodou origin section of the table. The first being replacing Haiti as a primary origin of Vodou's evelopment. Haitian Vodou is a syncretize Diaspora religion developed in the New World. It is  another branch and/or root religion of its mother religion of Vodou in West Africa.  Secondly, the Vodou religion developed throughout many regions in Africa. There is evidence that the Vodou religion merely migrated to West Africa with its adherents from the Sudanic regions. Nonetheless, to the chagrin of other nations in West Africa, Benin (former Dahomey) continues to lay claim to being the home of the Vodou religion.   Unfortunately, reinforced by western anthropologists, this claim is believed to be more for economic and political reasons than any attempt at historical accuracy.  Lastly, we have found no  historical evidence that the Yoruba had a hand in the development of the Vodou religion in West Africa.  We are aware that the religioustolerance.org page continues to attribute the development of the Vodou religion to the Yoruba,  however, this is an error that we are working to correct.  One of the earliest homes of the Ewe and Fon groups was ancient  Ketu and other regions in Nigeria. They are believed to have migrated to this region from the east as early as the 11th century.  It was only with the expansion of the growing Oyo empire in competing for land to expand, that these Vodou groups were forced to migrate southwesterly. Any remnants of the Vodou religion that existed in the region may be a result of their earlier presence.  Currently, there are what are know in Benin as Nago, meaning Yoruba worshipers of the Vodou religion in some parts of southern Benin. However, it is known by the locals  that they descend from populations of either warrior families, or early immigrants to that region, especially during the infamous Dahomean wars with the Oyo empire.  There, one might find a mixture of both the Orisa, Gelede, and traditional Vodou deities being honored.  --MWHS 01:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the title of the list, it's about religions of african origin transfered onto the american continent. Where and how the religions originated on the african continent is well beyond the purpose of this list; instead, it focuses on the apparition and distribution in and throughout North and South America. --Qyd 05:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Not a problem. However, we have re-added Togo,and Ghana to the list of Vodou's historical origins. Dahomey geographically, only encompasses the country of Benin, which is where the Fon originated. However, the Fon are an ethnic sub-group of the Ewe who inhabit Togo, and the Anlo-Ewe of southwestern Ghana. They along with many other African ethnic groups i.e., Mina, Kabye, etc.,  brought the Vodou religion to the New World. Inclusion of this historical information offers a more comprehensive perspective on Vodou's diverse ethnic origins, and is especially useful in aiding the Diaspora  in re-tracing their ancestral and spiritual lineages.--MWHS 09:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the chart is delinating New World development of African religions, then we have added Brazil to the list of Vodou's development.The Arara (Dahomean), Ewe(Jeje), and the Mina (Miha) groups of Togo were very prominent in the development of the Vodou religion in Brazil.--MWHS 09:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Under the remarks section for Candomblé, it refers to the deities of Dahomey as Loa. In Benin (former Dahomey) this appellation is not used. Loa sometimes creolized as Lwa are of Haitian origin. In Benin, just as in Togo, the deities  are referred to as simply "vodou" with small caps. The religion proper is capitalized. Either you or we can make this correction.--MWHS 15:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, what happens in Africa is not within the scope of this article. Rearding your addition to "roots", the listing is incomprehensible now, as you mixed countries, deities and mythologies. Why is it so hard to keep things simple? Regarding you remarks to Hoodoo, making the distinction between religion and folk magic, should be well documented in the hoodoo article, but has no place here. --Qyd 17:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The historical information about Africa that we include in our argument, is not necessarily for your personal information. It is mainly for the historical record for the Diaspora, and others who are still attempting to untangle decades of misinformation concerning their ancestral religions and African ancestry written from a foreign perspective. It is they, and perhaps others, who respect the Diaspora's world view, who might find this knowledge useful.  Also, we are not certain what your argument is regarding "mixing". You have made no particular reference to any specific country, nor  justified with any historical information why the changes we have made are not appropriate.  Lastly, we do not find the chart complex at all. It might prove helpful to keep in mind that your particular understanding of simplicity may be interpreted as a serious historical omission by many  in the Diaspora.  If you can offer us more than generalities laced with fairness of tone, indicating to us your respect for our cultural point of view,  we will be happy to offer more clarity for you.  In the meantime, we will continue to offer our contributions.--MWHS 22:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You included a list of present day countries to "ancestral roots" of religions formed in the 17-18th century, when the countries listed didn't even exist. The roots of those religions are african mythologies, not countries that have emerged since. I appologise if my frustratin became apparent, it's all due to your well mannered stubornness (please note that this frustration is directed to you as a wikipedia editor, not to a group, a culture or a dispora?). --Qyd 15:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The way that the chart is prepared, it delineates each religions supposed country of origins, which would logically be its ancestral origins, since they are ancestral religions.  The idea that African religions are somehow new to their current regions (i.e., Dahomey) is largely  the result of western anthropological speculation, which goes against both the historical and spiritual-physical evidence known to its heirs and lineage practitioners.  Meaning that many African/Diaspora priests of the Vodou (for example) can chronicle their ancestry and their tutelary deities to remote regions that pre-date its current alleged "country of origin". We simply do not see the conflict in making these long overdue corrections. In deference to you, we have reverted the wikilinks back to Dahomey Mythology, although we do not agree with this classification.  However, in noting that all of the so-called major religions are also categorized this way, we will accept this classification. Lastly, we thank you for your clarification concerning your demeanor.  We also apologize for our persistence in wanting to make certain that our ancestral religions are presented from our Diaspora world view, which has been historically omitted. In doing so, especially with editors who may not be accustomed to working with the Diaspora, or who do not respect their contributions and persistence, things can become heated.  However, make no mistake about it, our intention is only to present our historical and religious world view with as little confrontation as possible.  We are only concerned that our world view regarding our ancestral religions is not again lost to the pen of modern day revisionists.  We can assure you that as the tone of some of these editors become more amicable, ours will as well. --MWHS 15:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to hear that. Now let's try to make sure we're on the same page: this article is about religions developed in The Americas in the 17th-18th century. Do we agree on that? --Qyd 15:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  Although it doesn't state a specific time-table, we believe the chart is attempting to delineate African  religions brought  to the Americas by Africans arguably as early as the 14th century when the first group were reported to have been imported. Agree? --MWHS 18:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good. Now as the roots are as old as 500 years, can we agree that those roots are not set in countries that didn't exist in those times? --Qyd 20:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  We have already stated this fact above. However, there is universal agreement that a point of origin must be attributed to these ancestal traditions, and that point of origin is usually the last geographical location from which they were taken and transported to the New World. the countries that we have listed did exist during that period, and the Africans enslaved in the New World brought the Vodoun religion with them.--MWHS 16:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vodou origins

message: :::Very good. Now as the roots are as old as 500 years, can we agree that those roots are not set in countries that didn't exist in those times? --Qyd 20:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  We have already stated this fact above. However, there is universal agreement that a point of origin must be attributed to these ancestal traditions, and that point of origin is usually the last geographical location from which they were taken and transported to the New World. the countries that we have listed did exist during that period, and the Africans enslaved in the New World brought the Vodoun religion with them.--MWHS 16:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mythologies vs countries

message: I've moved the US material in 'Voodoo' to Louisiana Voodoo (which was supposed to be the main article - I didn't merge it, just pasted it), and moved the rest, including the article history, to Haitian Vodou. I've been making minor edits for years in the hope that someone more knowledgeable would clean them up, but that never happened. Voodoo itself now redirects here. Maybe not ideal, but I'm hoping names less ambiguous than simple 'Voodoo' will help bring some clarity to these chronically neglected articles. kwami (talk) 09:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, Vodou and Dahomey mythology should probably be merged. kwami (talk) 10:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  moved 

message: Rastafari is a afro-american religion? 189.25.172.157 (talk) 03:07, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rastafari 

message: Hoodoo is nut a religion and does not belong in this article. See any book on anthropology for conformation, e.g. Puckett, Hyatt, Anderson, the documentation of 19th and 20th articles at http://southern-spirits.com ... etc. 24.130.186.73 (talk) 16:04, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoodoo is not a religion 

message: Is there any possibility we can get etymological insights? Any lecture?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magic Finn (talk • contribs) 18:36, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymological insights on Hoodoo and Voodoo

message: I will no longer be available to help, assist, aid, give, portray, indefinitely.
I will be doing whatever I want, feel like, desire, except seedier intentions of the common law like, or enjoying a visit with another person, or meeting somebody i can be intimate with, or reltying upon another for anything other than being assaulted, robbed, and the like, i will be doing whatever I feel like but driving over to Carl's Jr and buying a homeless man a burger with Joe's Dad's money, filling my gastank up in DHS for super unleaded is so expensive in the city harold matzner pays. lays  
this world is so messed up, i cant think of one thing to say when i approach the situation open like a book. but, i always remember this too.
i have been set free, by all of your greed, so,, let me enjoy the area ive been dumped off at, which is a dump by the way. and i understand the things i do are so offensive its awful. those are the reasons ive been dumped off here without one cent to my name, to still further destroy my repytation and my followers chances of ever leaving again 
I had faith in your structure, i thought somebody someplace else would have enough sense and then enough power in this place to take care of things i couldnt. ui thought the people using the finances would be able to handle it. until it became apparent to me that the reasons nobody can do anything is because of the ways religious corruption effects mankind.
blackmagic, voodoo, wicca, witchcraft, these are common knowledge to my childhood lives after abduction. Libby, whitey, and Carmen depict who i am after abduction and life rearrangement. t=you stole me from another guy. he hadnt used me yet, i was time in a bottle. 
there isnt anything in your world good enough for me to stay on like this here, i am amusing myself and if for some reason i state or seem to give the impression that i am working on it, i am. i need to leave these customs are so vaguely horrible and there is nothing i can do about homeless lifestyles for me, as black magic, voodoo and the like still operate in prisons, army unitsand now add city destablishments. i am to be the only living member of a congregation depicting women as the sectsixth social circle prior to going to to see a man .. the morongo casino guy again. the one that stole my dad from his kitchen in the desert. you do know i am waiutuing for those people as well with a proud attitude. that i should be so lucky to have something wanting me needing me having me in mind for something special is an event in itself far underrated. what could i do. it was the orders of the law to keep whiteys meth in the hands of the state at all costs, just as getting everybody a new household at any costs was the .
plus. if somebody in the states doesnt get it down in its own environment, it will be used to take up the entire craft. 
see the cults santa monica had prior to me being bertsch late though.
those places kept every single idea, friendship, anything i had remembered experienced in my own intelect after you got horny all over my life. when i stripped down and let you ugly sick perverts take over my worlds, where the money came from, the boss of you also took away all my peers via me not speaking about my own life 
so , there you have it. i wont be soeaking about nay of you because, alas, hyour all just a wierd freaky tweekiy late night delusion i am having, 
oh what do you think i can do about it? those old timers are keeping people broke here becase its the only thing they can do, and their scared.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:F180:6C00:E4E4:F31A:A5F3:4C63 (talk) 10:53, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  THE ARTS, The Medieval Era, The Tarot, The Raccoons, The Finest Inventions of mankind came to this place too and now that youve got it all to yourselves 

message: There are some African decendents in Mexico.
Santeria is found in Mexico too 
~~Ed~~ 2607:FEA8:4A2:4100:C4AB:804B:20D3:AA43 (talk) 09:24, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Mexico?