Talk:Characters of the Devil May Cry series/Archive 1

message: To be blunt, the articles on Arkham, Sparda and Vergil are weak. The Sparda article (while actually pretty good) is fair short and is currently about as detailed as it can be, though it could use some sourcing. My main concern is actually the Vergil and Arkham articles.
For one, a large part of them is that they're essentially a plot summary of Devil May Cry 3 from the perspective of each character which is fairly fancrufty as a good, FA-class Plot Summary in Devil May Cry 3 should cover all of this already. The Literary Roots section for Vergil, while well thought out, really needs some sort of sourcing for the amount of space it gets. It smacks of Original Research to me.
Thoughts are appreciated. Lankybugger 18:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That Literary Roots section on Vergil is copied from Dante's page and was originally called "Philosophy and Speculation", until I renamed it. I think the OR in it can be removed simply by taking out the bits about Trish and Mundus, as their (possible) paralells are less obvious. While The brothers' names are a concrete connection to the Divine Comedy, Vergil's role in the first game to me seems to be in that hazy area between obvious and OR. In my opinion of course. --Boradis 02:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole section makes me a little uncomfortable (in Dante's article as well, but that's a mountain I'll climb later). While I've got no objection to mentioning that Dante and Vergil are names taken from the Divine Comedy with a sentence or two about the "original" Dante and Vergil, I think even the paragraph as it exists is OR. Cheers, Lankybugger 03:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Proposal 

message: I'm going to be adding a to-do list to the talk page very shortly. Anyone who intends on working this article with me should feel free to contribute items to the list or tackle anything which hasn't been completed yet.
Cheers, Lankybugger 18:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thanks for setting this up. What final order should these characters be listed in on the page? By game? And if by game, should they be listed in order of release date, or the canon's chronology? --Boradis 02:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right now I support Alexlayer's format. It works pretty well. Cheers, Lankybugger 03:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To-Do List 

message: I've recently edited the article seriously, adding a bit of information about Dante, Nero, Sparda and Vergil with links to the respective articles. Also added information about Mundus and merged it with the article of Arkham (Though this one might need some clean-up).
I've though about dividing the article in Protagonist, Supportive Characters and Antagonist. Though it's still lacking information about Matier and Arius, and maybe Kyrie is worth mentioning too.
And before someone moves Lucia, let me explain this: Objetively looking to the meaning of Protagonist, Lucia is actually more of a protagonist of Devil May Cry 2 than even Dante, since the plot (as small as it is) resolves actually around Lucia, and Dante is more of a complement for her than she to Dante.
Any colaboration is gratefully accepted. (Alexlayer 03:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice! I like this organization better than my own proposed organization. I'll remove it right now. Cheers, Lankybugger 03:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Uhm... Thanks! (Alexlayer 05:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Big Step 

message: Myself, Lankybugger and Alexlayer have done a lot of work to clean this up and bring it closer to Wikipedia standards. I believe we've solved the problems of the long plot summaries and in-universe writing, and propose those tags be removed. --Boradis 21:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, after such clean-up (Great work!), I think it's about time. Personally, I aprove that proposal (Alexlayer 03:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing plot summary and in-universe tags? 

message: Would it be too much like original research to point out the name similarities between Trish, Lucia and Lady (Mary) with the female characters in The Divine Comedy: Beatrice Portinari, Saint Lucy, and the "gentle lady" (Mary, Jesus' mom)? See List of cultural references in The Divine Comedy#Lucia for more info on these historical figures. --Boradis 22:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure how much of Original research it is, but I think you are right. Yet, even if it is a bit of OR, I personally find DMC full of OBVIOUS references to the Divine Comedy, including the character's names (Just to mention: Until Kyrie's name was revealed, I was beting she would be called Rachel), and I think they are worth mentioning. (Alexlayer 04:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as the references are short (I.E. not whole sections dedicated to the subject, just a sentence or two) I think it can pretty easily accepted without bringing out the Original Research cries. We just have to be careful not to draw TOO many conclusions. Cheers, Lankybugger 05:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name references? 

message: I just reorganized the characters by game, with the recurring characters up top, where I sorted them roughly by importance to the series. The only one who's placement I'm not sure about is Mundus, since (as far as I know) he has only been mentioned in DMC1, despite being Sparda's main enemy. For the time being I'm leaving him under recurring, though he doesn't technically recur. Sparda and Eva of course are a little vague as well, with Eva only appearing as a voice in a flashback in DMC1, and Sparda never appearing but being talked about a lot, but I'm comfortable that they're relevant to the series as a whole. Suggestions welcome. --Boradis 18:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's well done, but I believe that Mundus and Eva should be in Devil May Cry 1's section. After all, it's there where they are relevant. Eva was only mentioned in DMC3 while Mundus's role in the same game is hardly more than a cameo appearence. (Alexlayer 18:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree about Eva, and wish you had waited for feedback before making the changes. Please put Eva back, and wait for at least one other person to comment. --Boradis 18:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, already done, at least until someone votes for the opposite option. Sorry about the hurry, my bad. (Alexlayer 18:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: You know what, I just remembered that Mundus does appear at the end of DMC3 in Vergil's bonus scene. I'm putting him back in recurring. --Boradis 20:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization 

message: Generally I try to stay out of the whole image thing since copyright issues are a real can of worms -- aside from the occassional post asking for some, like I did on the Dante page. Plus, I'm much more of a words guy. I'm just hoping that all of the images we've been adding to this and other DMC pages are free of copyright restrictions, and are properly noted as such. Otherwise, they'll eventually get deleted by an admin, and that would suck. --Boradis 18:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we should limit the number of images we use? I'm pretty sure some of the characters don't really benefit from the addition of images (such as Mundus, Arius, Matier). Cheers, Lankybugger 20:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I added most of images and I made sure to add the Licensings and Sources, so I don't think that deletion might happen, hopefully. I'm also more of a words guy, but I like articles being ilustrated since I believe it makes them much better. Remember what they say "A photo say more than a hundred words" (Alexlayer 04:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A note on images 

message: Perhaps we should think about populating Devil May Cry (series)? This would allow coverage of the upcoming anime in a place not covered by a specific title and would also allow for a general series comparison (though I'd try to avoid cruftiness, if possible). I was just realizing there was no series page when I was filling in the 5th Anniversary Triple Pack release dates on the various pages, which is also something which could stand to get some coverage.
So... yeah? No?
Cheers, Lankybugger 04:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A thought has occurred to me... 

message: Dang, we've really turned this into something decent. We could certainly use more footnotes (and not just to the games themselves, but to other official information), but we've knocked a bunch off the to-do list. What I think of what we've done so far:
* General copyediting for spelling, grammar and readability. (I think this is definitely done.)
* Include footnotes in the article. (But could use more.)
* Create a Gameplay sub-section for each character with playable segments. (The only one I would do this for is Lucia, since Dante and Vergil are covered on their own articles.)
* Remove any plot specific items for each character which are repeated in the plot summaries for the game articles. (Done diddly done.)
* Add character boxes for each character. (Do we need this? Wouldn't it be redundant?)
* Make sure that the links to this article direct to the proper sub-heading (IE links to this article concerning Eva jump TO Eva's portion in the article). )I've done this where I've seen it, but haven't made a thorough sweep of the other pages.)
What do others think? --Boradis 23:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Between you and Alexlayer, I think a lot of ass has been kicked which has lead to improving this article. I'd leave the Footnotes thing up until it's done, but other than that you've nailed those. Character boxes can be removed from the list and the only things which are really left are wikignoming the What Links Here page. Cheers, Lankybugger 01:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, I've removed the items. Trish and Lucia need Gameplay sections, but I'll probably wind up covering them in the Devil May Cry 2 article. Cheers, Lankybugger 01:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To-do list points 

message: Alexlayer, where did you get the new information about Kyrie and Nero? It's relevant and sounds right, but unless you have a cite it's questionable. --Boradis 18:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional Kyrie and Nero info 

message: Firstly, I think we should archive the discussion at the top of this talk page ("Is this really neccessar?") that's left over from when this was "Women in Devil May Cry". But I don't know how to do it. Help? Also, as I discussed on Sparda's talk page, I'm of the opinion that both Sparda and Vergil are relevant to the series as a whole, and so deserve their own pages, and I'd like to remove those tags. Agree? Disagree? Thoughts? Bueller? --Boradis 02:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I just kept forgetting. --Boradis 05:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did it a few hours ago, there was no point in keeping them since nobody seems really interested in doing so and the topic was already closed in the articles that were being suggested in the merger, hell those don't even have the tags anymore so there was no point in keeping them. -Dark Dragon Flame 05:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving of discussion and removal of merge tag? 

message: The user that did this only has sharp criticisms on his talk page, with other users calling him out for needless changes he's made elsewhere. Do we want this change to stand? I'm kinda of 'eh' about it, but I don't like big random alterations being made either. --Boradis 04:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I think we should change it back. Unless someone actually wants to go back through all the DMC pages and redo the wikilinking to here. Any takers? If not, I say we revert. --Boradis 04:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I vote for revert too. (Alexlayer 11:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, then I'm doing it. --Boradis 05:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ummm ... renamed? 

message: As for now, we have Mundus and Eva as Recurring Characters, but I think they might fit better in the DMC1 section.
About Mundus, I know he appears in the secret ending of DMC3, but that's only a minor cameo appearance that could hardly be more relevant that Trish's appearance as a secret character in DMC2. He wasn't even really shown neither did he speak, and some players might not even know about it and would wonder “Why is he in this section? I’ve only seen him in DMC1”. Of course, his cameo-appearance should be mentioned, but I think he should be placed in the DMC1's section, where he is relevant.
And about Eva, I firmly believe that she should be placed in the DMC1 section. She is only briefly mentioned in DMC3, but there's no image of her like there was in DMC1, where we could even hear her voice (Not only in flashback, but also she talking to Dante during the last fight) and her role was totally relevant since Trish was based on her.
Beside of that, none of these character appeared in DMC2 and it doesn't seem like they'll appear in DMC4.
So... what do you people think? --Alexlayer 01:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhm... no one is going to give an opinion? If there's no objection, I might eventually move Mundus and Eva to the DM1's character section, but I'd like to know if the rest of the people of the Devil May Cry Task Force agrees. --Alexlayer 03:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, was kinda doing other things for a few days. I pretty much think it could go either way at this point on those two, and if there was no more DMC material coming out I'd be more likely to side with your above thoughts. However, Eva is indeed mentioned several times in DMC3, if not by name. Both Dante and Vergil (as well as Arkham of course) are chasing after their mother's amulet, a phrase which occurs several times. The name Eva doesn't come up, but her actions and influence on the twins is felt if only in the fact that it's her amulet they're fighting over. So that's why I'd classify Eva as recurring. Mundus is also obliquely referred to throughout DMC3, and then makes the appearance at the end. It might be a cameo, but it's still enough to qualify as recurring, at least IMO. I'll go along with the majority on this issue, but them's my thoughts. --Boradis 04:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mundus and Eva importance 

message: I'm not sure we need this just yet, and I've got three problems with the section. First off, all we know about these two is a name and a face. Secondly, we don't even know if those two characters are what they appear to be yet -- there's a good chance one or both of them is a demon. Thirdly, given that  so little has been made public, I don't think they qualify as notable yet. The show starts in a month, and someone will fansub it pretty soon after they air. We'll know more then. Should we just wait? --Boradis 20:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that, if we will another section it should be Manga and Anime character not just Anime I will add the manga ones now, I won't delete the Anime ones but neither I will revert an edit that takes them out. 凶 22:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest that the manga-only characters stay on the manga page, where they're most relevent. I'm starting to think the series got cancelled, and even if not there's no reason to think they'll ever be mentioned again. That is, with the exception of Enzo, who's status as a canon character is really, really vague. If he shows up in the show, he'd be my first choice for giving a listing here as well. He is after all a recurring character. But if no one else objects within a day or so, I think I'll pull the anime/manga characters from here, then resurrect at least their screenshots (if properly sourced) for the anime page after the debut. --Boradis 01:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anime-only character section 

message: Unfortunately, I'm going to have to review this article as not meeting the GA criteria at this time. A lot of work has been done, and it's looking good, but it still needs more work.
* Criterion 1 states that a good article must be reasonably well written and in compliance with the six major aspects of the manual of style: lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation. The article's prose is generally clear and the grammar is OK. However, the article does not comply with the selected manual of style guidelines (note that a FA must comply with all manual of style guidelines, making this one of the major differences between the two; however, GAs must still comply with these six): the lead section is only one sentence, and there could be a little more work done to make the article in a more out of universe perspective (more on that below).
* Criterion 2 requires factually accurate and verifiable information. References are provided where appropriate, and all are at least somewhat reliable (IMDB is one of those "on the fence" sources, but generally acceptable). 
* Criterion 3 requires that all articles be broad in their coverage. With regard to this article, I do not see sections on character creation or cultural impact, which is important. I recommend reading devil may cry reviews and looking for how the characters were received, and finding interviews for character information. 
* Criterion 4 states that articles should be neutral. No major problems here.
* I don't count criterion 5 unless there's an edit war.
* The article has fair use ratonale and provides sources, so it meets criterion 6.
It's getting close, but it needs a copy-edit, an expanded lead section, and information on character creation and cultural impact (at least what you can find; if more information cannot be found, then contact me and I'll review it as meeting the GA criteria). Nothing big; just enough to meet the GA criteria, which is considerably weaker than the FA criteria, so there should be no issues. — Deckiller 01:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unfortunately, the article falls short of the GA criteria