Talk:Khaira, Ludhiana

message: I think the multiple-issues flags make it adequately clear that this is not a great article, and that all the content should be taken with a large dose of extreme caution.
That said, I am going to use my editorial hatchet.  Since this is the English language Wikipedia, this article will probably be far more limited than might be desired... but disputed content cited to non-English-language sources is probably going to be difficult to support.  And the unsourced content really needs to go.- sinneed (talk) 20:38, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. The article needs complete rewrite. There are some really dubious claims and poorly referenced material in this. I have removed links to Punjabi alphabet sites used as references several times now. Using dead links deliberately or links to non-existent refrences is considered very poor practice. Please stop this.--Sikh-history (talk) 21:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not remove the references, but instead simply flag them to let the adding editor have a chance to repair them.  If the problems are not addressed, the information cited to it can simply be killed, say, tomorrow.- sinneed (talk) 21:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is very little encyclopaedic content here 

message: It appears that some of these sources are dead links.  While dead links that once worked and stopped should not be thrown away, a link that is dead when added should not be left in the article.
It appears that some of these are dictionaries.  We are not looking for a source for a definition of a word, but for historical fact.  Please correct the flagged reference, and if it points to a dictionary, please provide a quote which support the historical statement the citation covers.- sinneed (talk) 21:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources - discuss

message: See wp:lists.  If we need a list, an article can be created, but I don't think it will have notability.  Better would be to create a category for "Khaira-related villages" and attach it to any such village articles, once they are created.  But I am dubious that there will be enough notability for even the category to survive, much less the villages.- sinneed (talk) 22:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut the Villages section. 

message: I'll cut most everything that isn't sourced in a couple of days.  I have cleaned up the writing where I could comprehend what was intended to be said... but some of it was simply incomprehensible to me.  Please fact-check and source.- sinneed (talk) 22:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced content - couple of days 

message: I am dubious about the references. The references used here are incredibly poor. We need to know what the actually say. The Mahan Kosh reference is just ludicrous and an insult to Wikipedia.--Sikh-history (talk) 10:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference need ISBN Number and Quotation of Text

message: * "Mahima"() named Sikh of Guru Angad Dev. See ਮਹਿਮਾ in: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary He belonged to the Jatt Khaira clan.Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose, 1990, p298 
* Himachali rajputs of Jaheer Chand clan. Jaheer Chand was the son of Tara Chand,  the king of Kehloor at the time of Guru Har Gobind).Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose, 1990, p298 
* Baba Deep Singh Shaheed () was jatt Khara by caste.History and
Study of the Jats by B S Dhillon page number 11 on Baba Deep Singh Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose, 1990, p298 
* Pooran Bhagat da Kissa(English Story of Pooran Bhagat) was written by Jagat Singh Khaara.Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose, 1990, p298 
I cut all this to talk to keep from losing it.  It is a list, and if it needs to be included, it needs to be text, and needs to make clear why these individual are interesting to wp.  They also need much better sourcing.  This source does not appear valid.  If it is readded with this source, a quote will be required for each or I feel compelled to remove the content again.  Very dubious.- sinneed (talk) 13:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical references to Khairas 

message: I am going to kill the references to Deep Singh.  If he is a Khaira, that would be great to add, with SOLID sourcing, to his article.  Then we can simply wikilink it from here.- sinneed (talk) 13:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Baba Deep Singh]] 

message: One of the Misls ruling over Punjab in the late 17th century was one of Khairas numbering 5,000 horsemen lead by no other than Baba Deep Singh who was entrusted with the Shaheedan Misl who had had gone to avenge the attack on the golden temple lead by the afghan army they had all given their lives at the battle of Amritsar defeating the Afghans who had attacked the Golden temple.Ian Heath, The Sikh Army, 1799-1849 (Men-at-arms), Osprey (2005) 
This will require a thorough rewrite and strong source, including quote(s).- sinneed (talk) 13:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut to talk for possible inclusion. 

message: Khaira are largely adherents of the Sikh faith.
People with the Khaira/Khara surname are Sikhs. There are indications that Khaira were Pagans, then Hindu, and later Sikhs.
There is also a significant Muslim population of Kheras in Pakistan, Punjab mainly concentrated in the Kasur and Lahore region.
I am dubious of an entire clan group being characterized by religion.  This would need thorough sourcing to be readded, IMO.
- sinneed (talk) 20:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion of the Khaira people? Cut to talk. 

message: The British described Khaira as a powerful and united, but quarrelsome tribe. History of the Jatt Clans - H.S Duleh.page 44-46
::*This needs better sourcing, and a rewrite.  I can't support it as is.  Been flagged a bit.- sinneed (talk) 15:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Source does not mention the Khaira, does not cover the time period of the statement.  This needs thorough sourcing, and has been flagged for a bit.- sinneed (talk) 15:25, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Source does not mention the Khaira.  It does talk about these events, so this would be a good source about the rise of Dal Khalsa, but it will need some tie to the Khaira.- sinneed (talk) 15:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut to talk for possible inclusion 

message: ...and remove all but the refimprove flag from the article.  If anyone disagrees, please revert my edit, and accept my apology.- sinneed (talk) 15:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am going to [[wp:be bold]] 

message: Or are they ok as is until someone interested and knowledgeable finds a source and improves things?  That is, are there any strong objections to the article as-is?- sinneed (talk) 22:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Misterconginialtastical is probably the most qualified for this. I will also ask my own relatives who are from teh Khaira clan. Thanks --Sikh-history (talk) 11:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are any of the remaining ''dubious'' or ''citation needed'' points critical? 

message: I have removed the material added in these edits from the following reason. While most of the material is in Punjabi, which I don't speak, some of it was not, and the sources I could find and understand did not mention Khaira in any way. Furthermore, the text was in such poor English, some of it was illegible and useless (e.g. Famous "Mahima"(Punjabi: ਮਹਿਮਾ) named Sikh of Guru Angad Dev. What does it mean?). a precautionary move, I reverted the entire edit, but I invite other editors to restore it, with proper sources, and in proper English. --Muhandes (talk) 11:54, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed material