Talk:Crimthann mac Fidaig

message: Scholars believe that Crimthand Mor mac Fiadaig and his sister Mongfind ingen Fidaig may have
been the grandchildren of the eponymous founder of the Dairine Erainn royal dynastic clanns 
of Munster, Dáire Cerbba (Cearba, Cearb) as in some sources (e.g. Rawlinson B 502), this Daire
Cerbba was the main ancestor of the Uí Liatháin and Uí Fidgenti. However later dynastic data
and psuedo-historical genealogies claim that all of these clanns had descended from the proto-
Eoganachta known as the Deirgtine. 
Thus it was thought the brother and sister Crimthand mac Fiadaig and Mongfind ingen Fidaig, 
should be regarded as belonging to this early branch of the Eóganachta dynasty of Munster, now 
seen as psuedo-historical and mythological known as the Deirgtine. Evidence for this claim
it is recounted can be found in the Rawlinson B502 manuscript. This then raises an issue as to
why if this had been true, their main dynasty had lost power for over two centuries after their
own time. It is then said that the often stated likewise descended Dairine Erainn ruling clann or
dynasty of the Corcu Loigde had been in power for many centuries after this earlier branch,
as that branch of the previous proto-Eoganachta dynastic clann may have become of lesser import
to them, or as some legends would have it, even become extinct.
Although research has revealed that the true history of this pair of notorious persons
from Munster is more likely that as descendents of Dáire Cerbba (Cearba, Cerb), they were 
members of one of the many earlier well documented Erainn royal clanns, known as the Dairine. 
As such this pair must then have belonged to, or descended from one of the distinct clanns of
the Erainn, a people believed to be representative of the pre-historical Iverni or possibly
even the Ulster Darini of Ptolemy, as these royal dynastic clanns, then constituted the ruling
dynastic clanns of the province of Munster from ancient pre-historic times well into the 7th 
century AD. This is known to have been true at the time of Crimthand Mor mac Fidaig and Mongfind's 
flourit, for the Dairine Corcu Loigde were still the principal ruling dynasties in Munster.
As such this pair of Daire Cerbba's descendents must then have descended from a clann or a 
ruling dynasty of the co-related Ui Liathan, Ui Fidgenti, or even the Corcu Loigde themselves, 
it is also just possible they were of the Martine,or another now unknown or un-specified early
Erainn clann, which had ruled this and many other regions of the Island for centuries. This is 
the best guess answer, and main reason the Eoganachta's claims are now discounted, as it now
seems that the Eoganachta may have simply later laid claim to these persons as their own early
ancestor's for political reasons. The evidence advanced in support of this is that the Erainn
were quite powerful long before the new Eogannachta dynasty of Conall Corc ever came to power. 
Also it is said that the Eoganachta dynasty inter-posed a psuedo-historical clann known as the 
earlier and legendary Deirgtine into their own genealogy to hide this fact. Historians have
also shown that at the time in the 7th century that this dynasty arose they had only recently
claimed the name Eoganachta and their rise to power in the mid 7th century was through 
inter-marriage with the main Corcu Loigde,a major ruling Dairine dynasty, this being 
the case, any claim of the descent of any early "High King" and particularly Crimthand Mor 
and his sister Mongfind ingen Fidaig as being from the earlier psuedo-historical dynasty a 
now believed to be mythologized Deirgtine, must be viewed as highly dubious.
 
The truth may well be intimated in an obscure Old Irish poem by Flann mac Lonáin,[11] although 
in the Banshenchus Crimthand Mor's sister Mongfind ingen Fidaig is called "Mongfind of the Érnai"
a tribe well known to be a memeber of the (Érainn),[12] possibly showing that her and her brother's 
origins were among the people who indeed had comprised the majority of the Celtic Tribes known as 
those peoples who made up the royal dynastic Clanns of the Dáirine. It should be noted that a
passage in Rawlinson B 502 declares that Dáire Cerbba, had been born in Mag Breg (Brega), Mide,[13] 
a territoy that in that time would indeed have been or remained under Érainn or Dáirine rule. 
The suspicion thus is that the Later Eogannachta political genealogies inter-posed their own 
psuedo-historical ancestors into this genealogy prior to this generation in order to make this
Crimthand mac Fidaig as a high King, appear as an ancestor of, or closer to the later 7th century
semi-historical Eóganachta dynasty. Thus Crimthand Mor mac Fidaig's natural kindred of the as
then ruling Corcu Loigde and his own purported clann of the Ui Liathan Dairine in the 7th and 
8th centuries having mostly fallen into obscurity or later become subsumed into the dynastic 
rule of the new Eogannachta dynasty the Geneaologist's took license with the details of the 
historical descent of an earlier High King from another dynasty of the region or province in 
order to garner respectability for their own later and obscure dynastic rulers.
 
Francis J. Byrne reproduces one of these  modified genealogies and legends(2001), while he 
does not give his source, based on the details he does recount, other scholars have concluded
this may reflect Laud 610, in which the father of the historical Crimthand Mór is a certain 
unknown and seemingly interlocuted, Láre Fidach, son of a psuedo-historic member of the then
suppposed early Eoganachta progenitors the so called Deirgtine, or a grandson of Eogan 
mac Ailello, named as one Ailill Flann Bec. Being generous one could consider that this may 
have been a mistake, if not for the scholarly level of distrust that is based on the later
Eóganachta Genealogist's colorful attempts to hide their own obscure ancestry behind often 
dubious and highly political claims. These attempts to more closely associate their dynasty
with other High King's have been well documented, thus this dubious tale of the ancestry of 
Crimthand Mor mac Fidaig and his sister are treated similarly to these other well documented 
dubious tales perpetuated by this dyansty. Since as the lately named Eoganachta had only 
truly come to prominance under Conall Corc in the mid to late 7th century, where as Crimthand 
Mor mac Fidaig may have ruled in the late 4th and early 5th centuries, and other intimations 
are that his progenitors were of the Ui Liathan, a Dairine Erainn dynasty, his association 
with or descent from the assumed to be psuedo-historical Deirgtine or proto-Eoganachta 
is now seen as highly unlikely. 
It must be said in all fairness, that the 7th and 8th century Eoganachta geneaologist's were 
not the only ones to engage in such colorful tales, and other sources do make Crimthand Mor 
mac Fidaig and Mongfind ingen Fidaig's origins even more unclear. As Mongfind ingen Fidaig
in the Book of Lismore, is simply called the daughter of a Dáire, not of a Fidach, and this 
alternate source is not even very clear on whether the Daire refered to, was Daire (Cerbba?) 
or not, also in that particular source, Dáire's father is called Findchad, while the so stated
Mongfind ingen Fidaig's brother Crimthand Mór mac Fidaig is not mentioned at all.[14]. 
Below is one of the possible and simplified pedigrees for Crimthand Mor mac Fidaig,and also
presumably then Mongfind ingen Fidaig, taken from the list as stated by Byrne as based on 
Rawlinson B 502,however one should be aware that the majority of this Genealogy prior to the
Daire Cerbba mentioned, is not highly respected as historical, and seen as possibly a later 
and politically motivated fiction: Dalegar123 (talk) 09:02, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:   Proposed Article re-write 

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