Talk:Province of New York

message: shouldn't the Province of New York be called New York Colony or should there just be 2 separate articles?  Most of the other locales such as Virginia and Maryland are referred to as colonies. For consistency's sake, this should be renamed New York Colony as Virginia is named Virginia Colony and Maryland is named Maryland Colony.  Stevenmitchell 03:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the article on the 13 Colonies, the opposite is true, most of them were named "Province of ...":
*Province of New Hampshire,
*Province of Massachusetts Bay,
*Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, 
*Connecticut Colony,
*Province of New York, 
*Province of New Jersey, 
*Province of Pennsylvania,
*Delaware Colony, 
*Province of Maryland, 
*Colony and Dominion of Virginia, 
*Province of North Carolina, 
*Province of South Carolina, 
*Province of Georgia.
...Catiec 20:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New York Colony?

message: thanks for the work .....but the map is very confusing.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.55.13.207 (talk) 16:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Map of territorial claims

message: I am adding sourced material that shows that there was a division among protesters between the largely middle and upper class Sons of Liberty, who favored peaceful protest (such as constructing Liberty Poles), and the street mobs that frequently were out of control of the Sons n the early protests.  This is a theme made clear in the main article on the Stamp Act 1765 and was true throughout much of the decade leading up to the war.
I removed the following unsourced paragraph since it is in conflict with the sourced material that indicates the Sons were not leaders of the street violence:
“The three most prominent leaders of the mob were Isaac Sears, John Lamb, and Alexander McDougall. There is circumstantial evidence that the DeLancey's were the secret men organizing the riots.  The majority of the lower and middle classes were attached to DeLancey's political party. This group was variously described at the "Sons of Neptune", "Vox Poluli", and the "Free Sons of New York". Later, this group was organized and named the New York Sons of Liberty (also known as the Liberty Boys).”
In a couple of other points I moved text and added dates to put it in chronological order. I also flagged for citation an apparently POV statement -- it should either be deleted or attributed as opinion to a reliable source.Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Stamp Act

message: I had replaced unsourced material with sourced material that was contradictory and explained my reasons in the above section.  BradMajor deleted a large chunk of this and replaced it with the previously removed material. He has added a source, but the source fails to provide a page number.  I would suggest he provide a page number and a quote (the material he deleted was a direct quote).  If this is a case where reliable sources differ, then the article can be written to include both.  
Despite my efforts to explain exactly what I was doing, my material was deleted with no effort to discuss.  I hope this isn't repeated. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: PS I've added a second source to the text (with a quote provided) that supports the section deleted by Brad. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of Sourced Material

message: I have the Ketchum book that BradMajors referenced (w/o page numbers), but haven’t read it.  However I have tried to track his claims down -- it appears that he is misinterpreting the work.  It appears that Ketchum is largely in agreement with Nash and Anderson.  Examples:
BradMajors -- “ The three most prominent leaders of the mob were Isaac Sears, John Lamb, and Alexander McDougall.”
Ketchum -- On page 137 Ketchum refers to the October 31 meeting of 200 merchants at Burns Coffee House (referred to as Burns Tavern in the article).  The meeting was attended by Lamb and Sears who were identified as member of the Sons of Liberty.  The meeting established a boycott and proposed setting up committees of correspondence -- it proposed no street action. 
Rather than Lamb and Sears leading the mob, Ketchum writes of the crowd outside, made up of “sailors and young men from the docks”, that they “were disappointed to learn that the meeting had been a serious, peaceable one.”  It was this mob that started vandalism that night that led to the full riot the next day -- it is clear they WERE NOT acting at the direction of Sears and Lamb. 
With respect to McDougall, on page 144 Kechum writes that McDougall probably acted as a peacemaker after the November 1 riots-- he was part of a group that went around to ship captains trying to get them to control the sailors.
BradMajors --  “There is circumstantial evidence that the DeLancey's were the secret men organizing the riots.”
Ketchum -- I can’t find where Ketchum says that.  On page 142 what he does say is that he violence of November 1 did not repeat itself and suggested that “someone behind the scenes was manipulating the strings” and “making certain that the situation never got out of control.”  At this time James DeLancey Jr. announced that he was a member of the Sons of Liberty.  As Anderson noted in my recent addition to the article shows, the Sons did not initiate the rioting but were instrumental afterwards in controlling the mob.
BradMajors -- “The majority of the lower and middle classes were attached to DeLancey's political party. This group was variously described at the "Sons of Neptune", "Vox Poluli", and the "Free Sons of New York". Later, this group was organized and named the New York Sons of Liberty (also known as the Liberty Boys).”
Ketchum -- On page 129 he writes that “the most vocal opponents of the act were the young merchants and members of the middle class” and “they began calling themselves sons of liberty.”  There is no mention of a lower class contingent of the Sons of Liberty until much later. This is consistent with the quote from Nash deleted by BradMajors. As stated above, DeLancey was not even identified with the Sons of liberty until after November 1. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: More on the deletion

message: I have explained why I made additions to the article -- all of these additions were sourced and the material removed was unsourced.
An editor came back and gave a vague reference (a book -- no page numbers).  I provided actual quotes and page numbers from the book that shows the references do not support the material that was removed.  The editor in question has not contested the acuracy of my information, nor has he substantiated his claims -- in act he appears to be ignoring this discussion.  With no actual discussion even being attempted, the dispute tag placed appears to be frivolous and I will remove it.  If the editor in question, or anyobe else, wants to actually explain what in the fully sourced material is actally in dispute, then it may be appropriae to reinstate the tag. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of dispute tag

message: Currenlty, the article only really deals with a single demographic, not plural demographics.  More is needed, particularly beyond race, such as: occupations, population density, etc.  The Economics secition is rather lacking as well, and in dire need of informaiton on exports, imports, manufactured goods, as well as some of the demographic information such as professions.  Shoreranger (talk) 16:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Demographic

message: Changed Delcaration of Independence to Declaration of Independence under Provincial Congress header. psycherhexic (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Typo

message: I'm going to remove a line because of inclusion of Nathan Pedowitz in:
 The Province of New York was created by Nathan Pedowitz
Similar seen in article on Ancient Egyptian Medicine -- ironcorona (talk) 10:33, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: They were chased out, of much of it, but not all of it. The Province continued to exist until evacuation day.Ericl (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  the British occupied New York the entire war 

message: The list of the original 12 counties is interesting, but those of us without much knowledge of NY state's geography would definitely benefit from a map of the original 12 counties. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 11:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map request: Original counties 

message: why isn't new york state, new yorkshire? https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/33czy2/why_isnt_new_york_state_new_yorkshire/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.81.170 (talk) 00:48, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It wasn't named after Yorkshire in England, it was named after the Duke of York, Charles II's brother (later James II).  He was into absentee ownership. It initially included all of New Netherlands and New Sweden, but he sold New Jersey to creditors and gave the Delaware lands to William Penn, leaving New York for himself.  William and Mary separated them out in 1691 into separate colonies.   SkoreKeep (talk) 22:07, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: I'm not Looking for a New Yorkshire

message: The word "province" was never part of the official name of any of the thirteen British colonies that later formed the United States, yet nine of the titles of the thirteen articles on those colonies include "province". All nine articles should be moved and retitled. WCCasey (talk) 19:45, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: While the term is a bit old-fashioned, scholars and primary sources certainly  use it: 1) Carl Becker, The history of political parties in the province of New York, 1760-1776 (1909) 2) William Smith, The history of the Province of New-York (1757); 3) Hamlin, Paul Mahlon, and Charles Edwin Baker. Supreme Court of Judicature of the Province of New York, 1691-1704 (New-York Historical Society, 1959); Rjensen (talk) 01:48, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not arguing that the term "province" has never been used, just that 1) it wasn't in the official name of any of the thirteen colonies, 2) is no longer used in the literature except when referring back to archaic documents, and therefore 3) shouldn't be in the title of these articles. WCCasey (talk) 01:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The term is used by historical documents to refer to the historical period in question. That makes it appropriate as a title. The colonial New York Legislature called itself a province hundreds of times.  But what is the source you have for the  "official name" -- Which colonial officials seem to be getting wrong, as well as many historians??? Rjensen (talk) 02:05, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: To avoid repetition, let's have this discussion at Talk: Thirteen Colonies. WCCasey (talk) 02:33, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe NY and the others were all Crown colonies at the time of the Revolutionary War. Drdpw (talk) 11:28, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Never a province 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I noticed that the economy section was a bit unprofessional and lacking depth. I'm not qualified to update it, but can someone tidy it up?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medajor (talk • contribs) 03:04, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economy Section 

message: In addition to only stating the total populations and the percentage of blacks but not things like women and children, I'm relatively sure the populations are wrong. I've been looking and I can't find a single source to support any of them. ECPBlue (talk) 13:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics