Talk:Anne McDonald

message: The article appears to present McDonald's authorship of the papers as a fact. There should be a place for some mention of the skepticism of McDonald's independent communication.
Sufficiently serious issues arose to provoke formal statements of concern from professionals and parents in 1988, and a government-sponsored investigation in 1989. Despite Crossley's resistance to objective testing (on the basis that FC users refused to cooperate when their competence was questioned), some small-scale controlled evaluations were conducted in the course of that investigation. When the facilitator's knowledge about expected messages was well-controlled (more on this later), and the accuracy of messages was evaluated objectively, the effect disappeared. The disabled individuals were unable to communicate beyond their normal expectation. Instead, it appeared that the facilitators were authoring most FC messages, apparently without their awareness. These early studies suggested that FC was susceptible to a somewhat unusual kind of abuse: Allowing others to impose their own wishes, fears, hopes, and agendas on nonspeaking individuals.
http://web.archive.org/web/20021217224216/http:/www.skeptic.com/02.3.green-fc.html
Ordinary Person (talk) 23:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree. I've come here from following links on and editing a series of other facilitated communication related Wikipedia articles that did an inadequate job capturing the actual weight of scientific evidence on the topic, and this definitely fits that pattern. I'm editing the article now to bring it more in line with the views of experts and the valid sources out there, and I've used that link as one of the citations. Thanks for sharing it.]. BreakfastJr (talk) 09:39, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Skepticism

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I went and actually looked up R v Health Commission of Victoria; Lipton, George; Maginn, Dennis; ex parte Anne McDonald since everything I can find about it simply refers to a section of Annie's Coming Out (though that has multiple quotes from the judgement and more). R v Health Commission of Victoria; Lipton, George; Maginn, Dennis; ex parte Anne McDonald [1979] VicSC,(17 May 1979), Supreme Court of Victoria 104118-1001  A section that seems relevant is part of Patricia Margaret Minnes' affidavit:However in my opinion the results of this assessment cannot be considered objectively reliable and valid until such time as Anne is shown to perform at a similar intellectual level under experimentally controlled conditions. In my view there are at least three variables which need to be controlled, namely – (a) the nature of support to Anne's arm, (b) the amount of information available to the supporting person regarding the response requested of Anne, and (c) the nature of Anne's responses. In my opinion these factors can be controlled and until the assessment is made under objectively reliable experimental conditions in my opinion the results of Mr. Healey's assessment cannot be taken as conclusive. Of course, they didn't actually do that because of time pressure, and the judge concluded: While the possibility must be recognized that Miss Crossley is misleading observers into the mistaken belief that it is the mind of the applicant which finds expression in  the selection of letters, either by reason of intentional deception on the part of Miss Crossley, or in consequence of less reprehensible and more obscure psychological processes, that possibility cannot in my judgment be regarded as at all probable. Anyway, it may be of some use. --tronvillain (talk) 18:36, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Habeus corpus 

message: Also potentially useful may be In the Matter of Anne Therese McDonald, a protected person within the meaning of the Public Trustee Act 1958. In the Matter of Anne Therese McDonald, a protected person within the meaning of the Public Trustee Act 1958 [1979] VicSC,(25 September 1979), Supreme Court of Victoria 96792-1001 It was preceeded by this and this. It was the ruling in which "Anne Therese McDonald, an infirm person (certified as such on the ground of physical infirmity), was desirous of making a contract with Penguin Books Australia Limited, whereby she and Rosemary Crossley as joint authors would write a story of her hospital experiences and Penguin Books would publish the book." It also mentions J. Jenkinson's earlier order that the Health Commisioner of Victoria and Drs. Lipton and Maginn should, "not hinder the departure of the applicant from the premises known as St. Nicholas' Hospital Carlton in the company of Rosemary Crossley." Anyway, on the basis of an 11 page report by a "Senior Master Jacobs" on McDonald and Crossley, Justice Murphy concludes: I formally order that pursuant to s.39(d)(ii) I will order the Public Trustee to sign and seal a certificate in the form in the Fifth Schedule to the Public Trustee Act 1988 that Anne Therese McDonald has ceased to be an infirm person for the purposes of the Public Tree Act 1958. The judgment doesn't contain the details of Jacobs' report. --tronvillain (talk) 19:31, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The website links, here, here, and here. --tronvillain (talk) 16:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Public Trustee Act 1958

message: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anne_McDonald&type=revision&diff=909866022&oldid=909854877
If the article is to be kept, since she was allegedly communicating through the debunked FC technique, the article must be reworded so her achievements are in the passive tense.  The only difference is that I would change "through the work of the fraudster" to "through the scientifically discredited work of". Ylevental (talk) 13:31, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That would certainly be a little more diplomatic, and less likely to lead to Wikipedia being sued. HiLo48 (talk) 04:10, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewording achievements of Anne McDonald 

message: Sorry, my edit comment (see here) about spa ip refers only to the 2nd edit (although the rest is relevant:). Coolabahapple (talk) 12:33, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  oops 

message: Is there any source that actually confirmes that McDonald had an intellectual disability at all? 
Surely the entire point of her situation was that she could not independently communicate, so that absent the at best dubious authorship of her 'facilitated' communications, she couldn't participate in any assessment so her level of cognition was a total unknown. 
I'm a little concerned that the common presumption that someone without access to verbal communication has an intellectual disability has crept in here somewhere. If one sets aside FC, it's just an unknown.
FlyingMeeces (talk) 22:32, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is documented (though I haven't read about her for sometime) that she had an intellectual disability and not just issues with being able to communicate. Sgerbic (talk) 02:09, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intellectual disability? 

message: For some reason, Sgerbic feels that it's relevant to include Anne McDonald's brother's later comment on having had family visits at the institution they had placed her in – "At age 16 she weighed 12 kilograms (26 pounds). Her brother Ewan remembers visiting his sister often on Sundays, the family taking her for outings and buying her treats.[2]" – despite the uncontroverted evidence that she was visibly starved in the institution and despite the fact that he is in this quote remembering events from forty years previously when he was a young child. OK, but if it is relevant then it is surely more relevant to quote the uncontroverted contemporary newspaper evidence that she had never been on outings and had not been outside the hospital in eleven years (The Age, Melbourne, 31 March 1975: "Anne McDonald... will leave hospital for the first time in 11 years tomorrow – because of the strike by psychiatric nurses. ... Anne's father, Mr. Angus McDonald, of Seymour, said last night... "we were told it would be distressing for her to leave the hospital environment."" 
Here, that is, Sgerbic is striking out, without any discussion on the talk page, clear evidence that his favoured source is, at best, mistaken. This is surely not permissible. I can see the argument for cutting Ewan McDonald's comment, but if Sgerbic demands that it be included it must surely be demonstrated to be in error.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhondag (talk • contribs) 05:13, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  McDonald's family relationships