Talk:Warren National University/Archive 1

message: 'Note': I had added links to Chronicle of Higher Ed articles; these were removed by Piercetp. I put them back, and added the comment below on my reasoning. This comment was edited to stick it at the end of the "auditor's" comments. I am not the auditor.
The Chronicle of Higher Education is the trade paper for universities and colleges; citing it is like citing The Wall Street Journal when talking about corporations, or Investors Business Daily when talking about stocks and bonds. Looks to me as if KW students are terrified of any non-KW source of information. I returned the Chronicle links to the external sources, but without quotes from the articles, and linked the transcript of Andrew Coulombe's testimony to his name in the article, where the neutrality is disputed. Surely we can let Wikipedia readers assess the usefulness of these links and the extent to which they may be biased. 
BuckRose 01:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it is proper to put a citation in the body. Arbusto 09:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  An individual's view 

message: In every US State a candidate for a Professional Engineer's license is required to take an examination. The requirements for taking the examination vary from state to state. I do not know the requirements for the State of Wyoming. Maybe what this author says is correct regarding this. But I know that other state requirements varry. In Illinois, where I live, a candidate who graduated from an unaccredited University or College can take the PE or FE (fundimental's of engineering) exam pending a review from the licensing board. Some states such as Vermont do not have specified requirements for examination.
I do not know how government agencies regard Kennedy-Western's program, but I do know that in the private sector, many businesses regard Kennedy-Western as being a legitimate institution and many will reimburse students for tuition.
I would add that as inany university and college, the student can make whatever he or she wants of the experience. I did graduate from a traditional university (Illinois State) and did find, that while I and most other students did work hard, there were many who found ways of cheating the system. I did know students who literally did not attend classes but graduated. 
I strongly support Kennedy-Western and will continue to vigorously defend the honor and reputation of the school in which I attend.
Piercetp 02:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In response to the auditor 

message: Another Happy Consumer
I have been a Ph.D. Candidate Student at KWU for over 3 years, it has been one of the most academically challenging and rewarding periods of my life.  I stand behind my decision to enroll at KWU.  I believe that the institution provides the space for an ideal educational experience and sound real-world results, and that perhaps some more traditional schools should consider adopting the model. Furthermore; I believe that KWU students are extraordinary in that they espouse; commitment, resolve, resiliency, and personal integrity as core characteristics.  I wonder how many students at traditional institutes of higher education-including those at the graduate and post-graduate level could successfully navigate their way through a program that is so determinate upon one's emotional intelligence, personal integrity and ability to strive as an independent learner. 
Thank you KWU, Another Happy Consumer.
T. T. Brown -aka- A'Man
KWU, Ph.D.-Candidate
12.35.254.254 18:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Student opinions

message: ---------------------------------
Why is it so important for you, who is not even registered, to have so much information about this individual?
Piercetp
:It's not *important* to me. I did not ask for an unreasonable amount of highly sensitive information - only where he/she teaches. I would think it would be persuasive evidence that KWU is, in fact, accepted in the business world and academia, if it were indeed the case that an accredited university hired a KWU graduate as as faculty (or staff, I don't know which, that's why I asked.) 
69.44.27.189
::It seems that I deleted your (69.44.27.189) post. For that I must apologize, but I did give my real name and I did not say I was registered. Also, I did not mean any flaming toward you. As far as the admonishing statement, it was not pointed directly at you, but the Critics. So you caught me in a misspelled word that has happened many times by my editors. For that I thank you. I do not disagree with you and hope you get the factual information you desire. Yes, it would be great information in the persuasion effort to have those that hold a Kennedy Western degree tell us about their experiences, but it seems that the Critics are having a field day kicking KW about. 
March 6, 2006
Taylor W. 02:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment followed by a Personal Question for 69.44.27.189 

message: Based on consensus reached on the discussion page, I have moved the proposed replacement for this section into the main article.  Keryst 00:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refactor of Unaccreditted Status section is complete 

message: Moved from User talk:Uppland:
I respectfully ask you to delete the comment referring to Kennedy-Western University at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Knightsbridge_University as being a diploma mill. Kennedy-Western has filed suite with the State of Oregon and according to a settlement of this suite it may not be referred to as such. The United States government now recognizes KWU as an "Unaccredited University". You say that a VfD page should not be reedited but I strongly disagree when such a page is being used as an example and can be viewed by the general public. Since this is a incorrect statement I ask you to revise these comments. Piercetp
:Sorry, I stand by what I have written. There appears to be no doubt whatsoever that Kennedy-Western University is a diploma mill. "Unaccredited" in an American context means that it is not a real university. In other words it can be characterized as a "diploma mill", "degree mill" or whatever term one wants to use for an institution that issues completely worthless diplomas that no real self-respecting university or employer would accept as valid. u p p l a n d 10:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many traditional universities also use non-traditional teaching methods (distance education using the internet and video-conference systems, etc.). But I think we need to have a cut-off line somewhere for what is defined as a university. As basically anyone can start a business or school and call it a "university" we have to go by what others say. In most countries we would go by what the government in that country (or in some cases region) defines as a university (as is the case in most of Europe, as far as I know). In the U.S., accreditation is the thing that counts and the only reasonable way to define what a university is. And we can't rely on what you or any other single user says about KWU here on Wikipedia. If it isn't accredited, there is no authoritative source we can rely on to define it as a university. I think this follows from Wikipedia's "no original research" policy. Once KWU has acquired accreditation there will no problem pointing that out in the article, and if the course is as rigourous as you say, I don't see why they don't make sure to get accreditation. u p p l a n d 13:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect statement  

message: I am sorry but I beg to differ with your description of what constitutes a Diploma mill. According to the very definition used by Wikipedia, a "Diploma mill" is defined as"
A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is an organization which awards academic degrees and diplomas with very little or no academic study and without recognition by official accrediting bodies"
In other words, its an institution which essentially sells degrees for money. I do know of such so called colleges and universities.
But Kennedy Western does not fall into such a category.
KWU is not a Diploma mill because it does require considerable work for any student to earn a degree. In my own situation, having transferred credits from another four year institution, Illinois State University, I have been required to take 10 courses plus a final project including a 100 page paper. I have been working on this for one year and expect to complete my degree in Electrical Engineering by the end of this year.
As for your statement about employers not recognizing a degree from KWU I should mention that I am an employee of Matshushita and it was my supervisor who recommended this institution. 
KWU is not accredited and does not seek accredidation because it teaches in an non-traditional manner. I can tell you that I actually find the courses more difficult than anything I encountered at Illinois State (where I knew many students who did very little study.)
I respect your opinions but I do wish you would understand the difference between Diploma mill and an unaccredited  University.
Also: Perhaps putting a POV statement atop the page might be in order?
Finally I thank you for your response and wish you peace.Piercetp
:Many traditional universities also use non-traditional teaching methods (distance education using the internet and video-conference systems, etc.). But I think we need to have a cut-off line somewhere for what is defined as a university. As basically anyone can start a business or school and call it a "university" we have to go by what others say. In most countries we would go by what the government in that country (or in some cases region) defines as a university (as is the case in most of Europe, as far as I know). In the U.S., accreditation is the thing that counts and the only reasonable way to define what a university is. And we can't rely on what you or any other single user says about KWU here on Wikipedia. If it isn't accredited, there is no authoritative source we can rely on to define it as a university. I think this follows from Wikipedia's "no original research" policy. Once KWU has acquired accreditation there will no problem pointing that out in the article, and if the course is as rigourous as you say, I don't see why they don't make sure to get accreditation. u p p l a n d 13:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disagreement here

message: Whoever is trying to help me with my post is correct, Penn Foster College is now licensed in Arizona and located in Phoenix. http://www.pennfostercollege.edu
Taylor W. 21:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: No idea who

message: From the information contained in this article, it appears that KW will need accreditation to operate from Wyoming. Please notice the comments made by  Paul Saltman, the chief executive officer of Kennedy-Western University.
http://www.wyomingnews.com/news/more.asp?StoryID=106639&arch=true
Taylor W. 21:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good detective work. I don't care all that much myself but hopefully with accreditation KWU students will finally get the respect they deserve. At the very least it will get all these so called "experts" to shut up.Piercetp 18:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: KW will need accreditation

message: For those who want to read the particulars of the issue pertaining to the settlement between Kennedy Western University and the State of Oregon. 
http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/BWIRE/20041221/20041221005728
Taylor W. 21:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Oregon Issue

message: http://data.fortcollins.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=11000363
The above link is for the Better Business Bureau report on KWU. KWU is a member in good standing with the BBB. Someone may want to add this link and mention it somewhere in the article. Piercetp 18:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I as well which is why I ask that a neutral put this in. Piercetp 08:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I do consider it relavent that KWU is in the Better Business Bureau because many "fly by night" institutions (if you would call them that) do not even bother with that. What that shows is that a business is willing to stand up to the scrutiny of the BBB's standards. I would wish to point out to Buck that the seven employees are administrative staff and actual teaching facilities are not considered "employees" as such. And as stated, the University also has a business facility in California. Piercetp 18:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Belonging to the BBB is a good thing for a business, but the BBB deals mainly with customer service issues. It does not evaluate educational service. Belonging to the BBB says nothing about KWU's academic merit relative to educational institutions in general. BuckRose 17:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But what BBB membership indicates, as far as I know, is that the member is committed to ethical standards. If the University has membership in the BBB, it would indicate that it is committed to satisfying the needs and demands of the customer, which is to say the student. I do not know if many other unaccredited schools, particularly ones with unsavory reputations would do the same. Piercetp 07:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think its a good addition to the article as well. Arbusto 08:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  KWU is in the Better Business Bureau 

message: Perhaps this information will be of interest to Students, Alumni, and Critics. Seeing that this is the only method by which Kennedy Western University has to defend its credibility, since the university was not allowed to present testimony and evidence in its own defense before The U.S. Senate Comittee.
I find it time that unanswered questions should be available to the public critics who are constantly at odds with Student and Alumni views about the university. Perhaps this will generate even more controversy because of disbelief, but it is available for public scrutiny
.
http://forums.degreeboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=58
Taylor W. 20:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More information on Kennedy Western

message: Since it has been suggested that as a Student or Alumnus of Kennedy Western, I should not edit the main article because of opinion ,therefore, I will post this here on the discussion page. Perhaps some neutral person could edit the main article and give a citation pertaining to the shown link.
Although the main article continuses to be reverted to say that Kennedy Western has a business license, the fact is, Kennedy Western is licensed as an unaccredited,  Private School in the State of Wyomong. 
By Wikipedia defination, "Private education in North America covers the whole gamut of educational activity. Private schools range from pre-school to tertiary level institutions." accredited or not.
Of course Kennedy Western operates a business and so do accredited instutions. So where is the difference?
The document shown in the link below, spells out the conditions and gives Wyoming  statutes pertaining to the post secondary education institutions that have been granted Private School Licenses which allows the institutions to operate in that State.
http://legisweb.state.wy.us/statutes/titles/title21/c02a04.htm
Taylor W. 13:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the BBB, KWU has the license from the Education Department of Wyoming and I added that in there with the reference. Arbusto 09:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kennsdy Western is a Privately Licensed School

message: A couple interesting links on Wyomings law changes mentioned here.
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/03/20/wyoming
Leads with:  "Among those who are knowledgeable about higher education accreditation and licensure, Wyoming has often been viewed as a renegade — a place where diploma mills and other unaccredited institutions can award degree with little or no oversight."
And a discussion board topic on it, which incldes author John Bear, who was part of the "DipScam" sting operation on diploma mills.
http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=kwu&start=0
Good information on the statute changes in Wyoming, and I am inclined to believe Wyoming made a good choice by changing the requirements. But, from reading the link above, I see that the "Shakers and Breakers" (The Mutual Admiration Society of Critics which once camped out over at DegreeInfo), are well into the "Great Debate" and betting the odds for the next "Great Horse Race."
Well at least this will force Kennedy Western to move from dead center. Accreditation would be the path to take, but it will do nothing for the present Students or Alumni.
Even with all this, I still know what transpired between myself and Kennedy Western. I know that I went through an academically rigorous Engineering program and came out with added value to my learning and education.
Hopefully, if KW goes the accredition route and becomes approved, it will reflect on previous Alumni. At the very least, and what will please me the most, is the debate will be over and these Critics will have to become silent or select some other unaccredited school to vie their elitist views against.
::I was only dreaming!Taylor W. 16:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wyoming Law Change Links 

message: I think the main page is fairly well-written at this point and shows both sides of the divide.  
I do think the Better Business reference is silly and obviously irrelevant to educational quality.  
For example:
Sinful Skin Tattoo & Adult Theatre and Bookstore in Nevada, both have a clean BBB record and no complaints within the last 3 years.  Like KWU, if you have a willing seller and a willing buyer, everyone is happy, regardless of the product.
Also, I used to travel alot for work, and you can always the quality of a hotel because they put their best feature on the sign.  "Member of BBB" for a univeristy is roughly equivalent to "Telephone in Room" for a hotel.
Cheers!
:That was mentioned in the article because, as stated repeatedly, only reputable businesses can stand up to the standards of the BBB. I do not think that a business which is involved in the sale of phoney degrees would seek membership in the BBB. 
:Essentially, I think its a good counterballance to a great deal of the negative infomation which has been posted about the university. Its all about giving the whole story and letting the reader decide. Piercetp 08:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And we can rely on John Bear for being unbiased in this matter. (thats sarcasm BTW) Piercetp 02:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good balance, but BBB is silly 

message: I worked at Kennedy-Western University and am convinced that is nothing more than a diploma mill.  The "admissions counselors" operate under boiler room like conditions, and the CEO Paul Saltman told me himself that he worked in boiler rooms before starting Kennedy-Western.  Managers give gift cards and promotional items to increase productivity.  "Admissions counselors" are so highly paid that they fall in line with Saltman and his cronies like some sort of cult.  Kennedy-Western has one of the most sophisticated sales database that I have ever been around.  It is referred to as K-Wosa, and counselors are told to make at least 75 calls and have 3 hours of talk time.  The admissions director for the "university" used to be a restaurant waitress, and she can be seen at the end of each month drinking with other staff members at a nearby bar once quotas have been met.  Two former managers had two counselors submit applications with their own credit card information since they got paid 75 dollars on an application that has a 50 dollar refundable application fee.  The "admissions" department is so overwhelmed with greed and deception, and the majority of the employees are uneducated and were hired because they answered yes the ultimate sales question of all time: "Are you money minded."  This university is an elaborate money making scheme, and the public should be better informed about such diploma mills. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.96.30 (talk • contribs) 
:Nothing you stated above indicates at all that Kennedy-Western is a "Diploma mill". This kind of recruiting, if it did happen, is similar to what has been described at University of Phoenix, which is an accredited University. Now Phoenix has a decent reputation, but it had been stated that the University's recruiting practices were controversial.
:unsigned|24.30.96.30, I can understand being angry at your former employer. Most people have worked at places that we hated. But by using terms like Diploma Mill to describe the University (and I will not put that word in quotation marks, thank you) you are not only speaking ill about the institution, but you are also speaking against the students who attended or graduated from this school, including many who you may have recruited.  Piercetp 09:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fiction?  Nope. I worked there ten years ago.  Why?  I was in between jobs, lived near Thousand Oaks CA, and desperately needed money.  Why won't I sign my name?  Because I'm ashamed I was part of it.  I personally observed the following:  syllabi were cribbed by the (uncredentialed) staff from mainstream universities' catalogs.  I was pressured to give a passing grade to someone who had miserably failed a calculus exam, and the staff person simply repeated to me, "Our students pay good money for this program." Students were completely self-taught.  If all you need is a Bachelor's degree to give someone so you can keep your current job, fine.  There are great distance-learning programs. KW-Warren-whatever is not one of them. rjphilippic 04:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  RJ Philippic,  I would like for you to note that I have retracted my statement. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, since I have changed my view of KW as a whole.Taylor W. 16:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I worked at Kennedy-Western University

message: :: 24.30.96.30
Why should anyone believe this post since it came from an anonymous user, and other contribs from this user appear to be vandalistic and racial. It is unsigned just like the one I'm posting. It is just pure vandalism to the extreme. It is only a negative POV, trying to inject negativism since so many positive articles exists here about KW. . Also, I could write such an artificial article and try to pass it off as the truth. Show me your cerdentials and then maybe I will show you mine. Then perhaps I could believe you are truthful. Anyone who is disgruntled and angry will say negative things about an employer or business; even friends. Personally I do not believe any of the BS you are trying to pass along as the truth.
71.64.104.158 17:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I missed this post here... sorry. You are right. It all sounds like a disgruntled employee taking a pot shot at a former employer. Not that I can't understand that. But by using words like "diploma mill" and this person is actually attacking the students at KWU as well. It seems a bit hypocritical for anyone who was in the business of "selling" the university to turn around and trash the honor and reputation of the very people he or she was making money off of. Piercetp 09:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do not belive the above negative POV

message: Word on the street is that KWU is being renamed to Warren National University.  Anyone have any insight on this?
http://www.warren-national-university.com/
Same board of directors, located in Wyoming, some of the webpages weren't copied and pasted well and refer to KWU yet.
The Auditor
Read the news release by AP posted below. KW applied with NCA for accreditation and a new name was mentioned by an NCA representive.
Taylor W. 17:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  KWU now = Warren National University? 

message: Could it be that the new Warren National University is named in honor of the first governor of Wyoming, Frances E. Warren, who additionally was one of the state’ first U. S. Senators. Also, Warren served on the Cheyenne City Council. The F.E. Warren Air Force Base is located in Cheyenne Wyoming. For the historical details please visit the link shown below.
http://wyoarchives.state.wy.us/governor/warren.htm
and:
http://www.warren.af.mil/history/index.shtml
Bill BSEE, KWU (or is it WNU)
Taylor W. 15:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: KWU New Name

message: I have for some time been reading the various arguments for and against Kennedy Western University with interest. I am a past student having completed a Doctorate in Administration  in 18 months with KWU. I was granted A & E credit Award of 50% resulting in having to complete 6 subjects as well as a Dissertation. I need to make mention that I personally put in a great deal of effort and time in the Dissertation and was very proud of the end result.
I personally have no regrets doing the course through KWU and understood from the beginning that KWU was not an accredited Institution.
However out of curiosity I decided to put both my conventionally obtained  Master’s degree and the PhD degree obtained from KWU through a credibility test using KROLL MIE .I wish to add that the verification of both school and other degrees in South Africa is top of any Human Resources department’s agenda because of the increasing amount of fraudulent documents in circulation.
Now I know I am stating the obvious when the KWU evaluation come back from KROLL MIE with the following “We regret to inform you that Kennedy western University is not one of our approved suppliers as there is no proof that this is an accredited Institution”  The point I am trying to make is that,  it would be unwise to put the KWU qualification on my CV, quite simply because it would not be recognized and may result in attracting unnecessary negative attention to myself.
We can argue until the cows come home with respect to the quality of the courses presented by KWU, but that , in my simple option is a waste of time as I do not believe that is the main issue in question. While KWU remains a non accredited Institution, it will continue to attract negative publicity as well a being classified as a “suspect” degree provider.
Richard – South Africa 196.2.111.63
Finally, an honest KWU alumni that speaks from the heart up front and honest.
:Perhaps your experience with KWU was not a good one. All I can say is that I have used KWU on my resume and have not received any negative reaction. I guess every place of employment is different. Piercetp 17:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just another point of view 

message: My bad!  Sorry Bill and Pierce, picked a poor source.  Let's try again.  Here is the actual testimony link.
Statement of Lieutenant Commander Claudia Gelzer  
Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs 
"Bogus Degrees and Unmet Expectations: Are Taxpayer Dollars Subsidizing Diploma Mills? (Day 2)" 
May, 12 2004 
http://www.senate.gov/~govt-aff/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Hearings.Testimony&HearingID=176&WitnessID=632
--Captinron 14:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice note Taylor. I might be nitpicking but I originally said the same thing as you. "KWU appears substandard but is not phony." I edited it to read, "KWU degrees appear substandard but are not phony." The difference to me is that there are many things that would go into a criminal investigation of fraudulent behavior, should there ever be such a thing (which I doubt) against KWU. For example, the Senate testimony regarding the way that the KWU "admissions committee" was presented to the prospective students seemed dishonest to me. I'm not a lawyer so can't speak to the legality of it all but it did cause me concern that perhaps they were at least operating in the gray area. So from my perspective it is much safer to say that the KWU degrees are not phony rather than saying KWU is not phony. Bill Huffman 03:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Senate Testimony - KWU Master's Degree in Engineering 

message: And just when we thought there was nothing left to debate and argue about.
http://www.kw.edu/warren-national-university.asp
Richard - South Africa.  28th November 2006
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yes, the show goes on and on and on.
Thanks for the info. Richard.
Taylor W. 20:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finally, the announcement!!!! 

message: The are only a few reasons why Kennedy Western University does not qualify for accreditation and none of them involve basic academics. One is that there is no "live" classroom setting. Interaction may be good, but as an adult, who wants to set in a classroom with 18-year old Freshman?
Another is that students are given the opportunity to work at their own pace - there is not a "set" amount of time to finish a class. However, you are given a time frame in which you must complete all course work. Parents with children need to be able to work at their own pace and turn assignments in when it's convenient for them. Although the students don't work in a group, they have easy access to the professors.
I am currently in an MBA program with a regionally accredited college. My undergraduate degree is from Kennedy-Western University. The tests were difficult and there was much more self-discipline required than in a traditional setting (I also have two degrees from a local university where I actually attended class!). The program at KWU was much harder than expected, given the ability to work at my own pace.
It's important to note that the students at KWU are not spoon-fed lectures by their professors, don't have a chance to play favorites or become teacher's pet, and the students are not given partial credit on tests, nor are the grades curved - you either know the material or you don't. I honestly feel as if I worked harder at KWU than I am working now.
An anonymous editor entered the above statement into the body of the article. As it was inapropriate for being added to the article, Bill Huffman rightfully deleted them. I decided to ad it here into the discussion section where it would be welcome. While all comments, both pro and con are welcome in the discussion page, I think we can all agree to please keep discussions, personal anticdotes and related material here in the talk page.  Piercetp 14:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Pierce, I rv'ed your change from using the word "impied" back to "shown". I think the GAO investigation results showed that at least the two classes and the granting of life experience by KWU was academicly substandard for that specific student. If you feel that the finding by the GAO is too strong and violates WP:NPOV then perhaps we can come up with some kind of compromise? What I changed from it being shown to be a diploma mill was definitely not WP:NPOV as least from my POV (even though it agreed with my POV :-) ) so I didn't want to discuss it first before the change. Bill Huffman 15:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Responding specifically to the text I removed from the article (not to Pierce), my view is that it is nothing more than KWU marketing misdirection that was repeated here. KWU marketing seems to say that type of stuff to try and justify not being accredited. My edit comment was that it needed some kind of verifiable reliable source for it to be made part of the article. Since there are fully accredited universities that don't require physical attendance and allow the students to work at their own pace. It would seem to me to invalidate that part of the statement. The student testimonial part of the information doesn't have a place in an encyclopedia article (but does here in the talk page as Pierce mentioned). Bill Huffman 15:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bill, I agree with you that the text does not belong in the main article, but it definitely does not lead back to KW. The IP used by the poster traced to the Midwest, not Ca. or Wy.  That text did express a KW graduate's views.Taylor W. 15:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Tayor.
I apologize for posting the text in the wrong section.  When I read the negative comments about KWU, I was so upset that I didn't pay attention as to where I was on the website.  
Now that I'm calm, the point I was trying to make was as follows:
I have two Associate Degrees from an accredited College.  I have a Bachelor's Degree from Kennedy-Western University. Prior to KWU, I completed coursework in Economics at an accredited university and also took classes at The University of Phoenix. When I enrolled at KWU, I was not concerned about its accreditation status.  The one aspect that "sold" me to enroll was being able to work when it was convenient for me. I wanted to be able to do the work on "my" time, not my family's time.  Besides, at the time, a Bachelor's was all I wanted - I had no plans to get a Master's Degree.  One year after I graduated from KWU (It took me two years to complete my degree, taking 9 classes and writing a 100-page research paper that took 6 months), I had a sudden thirst for more. Admittingly, I was concerned that my Bachelor's Degree would not be accepted by other Universities.  I conducted research and compiled a list of several Universities to which I wanted to apply. This time, my main goal was to pick a college that did not require a written thesis.  The research paper I had to write at KWU was so extensive and took months to research, organize, and prepare. I hated every minute of it, although the experience was good for me.
Surprisingly (even to me), I was accepted at four of the ten colleges to which I had applied.  Of the four, I chose the one I thought to be best and am now halfway through the MBA program at a regionally accredited college.  
I can honestly say that I worked harder at KWU than in any of my other undergraduate studies and in my current MBA studies. I am not saying that all of my other college studies were easy (by no means  ); I'm just saying that KWU does not hand out diplomas and, in my opinion, could never be classified as a papermill. Pierotti 05:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement from an unregistered editor 

message: So Gentlemen, now that the 1st January 2007 has come and gone, and Kennedy Western University in theory does not exist, do the alumni apply for their new Warren National University degrees and transcripts? 
Is this perhaps the vehicle we should be using to gain some recognition for the work we have completed at KWU and at the same time putting the “stigma” of KWU behind us, if that’s possible?
I believe we are all aware that accreditation will not be happening in the near future and although I am not really clued up on the different forms of accreditation in the U.S.A, I tend to agree that there a good chance of WNU obtaining a watered down recognition of sorts.
In one of the previous comments /inputs it was suggested that KWU has had to seek accreditation because times have changed. What was acceptable 5 years ago, namely an unaccredited degree just does not make the grade today! It makes for some good discussion, if nothing else.
Richard (South Africa) 4th January 2007  12.09pm
:Until WNU receives accreditation or at least candidate status for regional accreditation, a WNU degree won't mean much more than a KWU degree, IMHO. Regards, Bill Huffman 16:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to KWU the only thing that changed about the University is the name. Alumni will now have all transcripts and records under the new name of the institution.  Piercetp 00:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where To Next ???? 

message: A question asked in the edit note of a recent anonymous editor to the article was, "Where is it illegal to use a KWU degree?"
It is illegal under various conditions in a number of jurisdictions within the USA and internationally. The ODA has a website that I believe answers your question.
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx
As another example, http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf
Regards, Bill Huffman 20:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is it illegal? 

message: I was looking at WNU's website today. It appears to me that WNU has dropped some of the more questionable programs that they previously offerred as KWU. Probably to increase the chance of getting accredited. They apparently no longer offer any engineering degrees, for example. The Academics section says 20 different areas but it looks closer to half that now. I'm thinking of fixing it but wanted to solicit opinions whether or not I should mention the greater selection of degees under KWU? My concern is if someone looks at the article to try and check up on someone's claimed degree in engineering for example they might conclude it is bogus if engineering isn't listed there someplace. Thanks, Bill Huffman 21:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In my humble opinion, the best thing to say would be to state that the University had previously offered degrees in Engineering (and any other diciplines no longer offered) but these programs have been phased out. Piercetp 04:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academics section of article 

message: "Folks--I have been faculty at an ACC university with that job achieved on a KW PhD"
Not possible and not verifiable, but if it were true, this is a violation of the Regional Accrediting agency requirements for the ACC School.  To be accredited, faculty must hold degrees from regionally accredited institutions.  Even the no-name schools I've taught for have been very well aware of this requirement and have verified it aggressively.
Even the diploma mill haven of Wyoming laws require regionally accredited degrees and therefore a KWU degree would not permit you to teach at KWU, let alone an accredited school, let alone an ACC school.
Captinron 18:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I too have great difficulty accepting Bnmoore's assertions. I know his assertion that KWU degrees are accepted by the federal government is incorrect by Civil Service policy. Regards, Bill Huffman 15:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Statement Regarding Utility of KWU Degree 

message: Hi MojoTas, your "note below" paranthetical comment that you added seemed vague and didn't make sense to me. WNU is unaccredited. That sentence says that the law states that WNU must be trying to become accredited in order to continue to operate. Applying for accreditation is not the same thing as being accredited. Regards, Bill Huffman 05:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note Below Message 

message: Hi Bnmoore, I welcome you back and thank you for your attempts at improving the WNU article. Please discuss your changes here before you try to make them again. There are what I believe, multiple problems with the changes that you keep making. For example, you make the following assertion.
Oregon and California does not recognize the degrees. The other 48 states have no such rule. 
This is not supported by any reference, plus it is false. The WNU degrees are not illegal in California but are legally restricted in Oregon and about a half dozen other states. WNU is not supposed to accept students in California or Oregon, which is a different issue. Neutral point of view and verifiability are extremely important and cannot be compromised.
Please discuss your intended edits here on the talk page before you make them again. Thanks, Bill Huffman 23:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted Bnmoore Edits