Talk:Ventimiglia family

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130516155835/http://www.centrostudiventimigliani.it/ to http://www.centrostudiventimigliani.it/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: So, I see that a couple of years ago this page was moved by  to Ventimiglia family with the rationale "In English "House of" is reserved for Royal dynasties see House of". The move was reverted by  with a rationale that started off "Revert move until there is a talk page discussion and consensus ...". This is that talk-page discussion, however belated. I agree with Domdeparis, this is not a noble or royal house, but rather an only moderately prominent Sicilian family which received some appointments and titles. Treccani covers it in a very brief paragraph, describing it as a "feudal Sicilian family descended from one Guglielmo, count of Ventimiglia (1242)". I suggest moving the page and removing the unsourced content. PBS, would you have any objection to that? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:11, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: "It ain't necessarily so": just because Domdeparis made a statement it does not mean that it is true. Please read  Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 8#House of. "" (WP:TITLECHANGES). Do you have any sources to state that the current article title is incorrect ie that the common recognisable name is Ventimiglia family?  -- PBS (talk) 09:34, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that WP:COMMONNAME applies here. What are the english language sources that support the use of House of? --Dom from Paris (talk) 16:34, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea, but if the page is to be moved then as stated in WP:TITLECHANGES, the emphasis is on the person wishing to move it to show that the sources support such a change and as such a change has been shown to be controversial any propose move should use WP:RM#CM. Over to you User:Justlettersandnumbers -- PBS (talk) 16:40, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: 84 hits on GBooks for "Ventimiglia family", of which about fifteen are immediately verifiable. 23 hits for "House of Ventimiglia", two of them verifiable. Perfectly happy to start an RM on this (and don't actually much care about the outcome); it just seems like a rather pointless waste of time that would better be spent on other things. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:41, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: To be honest I agree this would be a bit of a waste of time as there are no sources in the article attesting to this being the common name. I would just make the point that the original article was called Ventimiglia (family) for around 2 years before being moved to the present name by a user without adding any sources to show this was the common name. The original move is in contradiction with WP:TITLECHANGES. Dom from Paris (talk) 00:04, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The original move was made over a decade ago (16:37, 6 April 2007‎) just six months after the article was created. So the current article title meets the requirement of being a stable article title. As to whether it broke WP:TITLECHANGES depends on whether at the time it was a controversial change. As there had been no discussion to show there was a general disagreement on this type of name ("house of" or "family"), making a bold move was something that could be done (someone could near the time of moved it back and there could have been a WP:RM it the mover so wished).  Looking at WP:AT when the page was moved there is a section called "Controversial names"  which gave guidance similar to today's. -- PBS (talk) 08:18, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It was actually 18 months and not 6 but that is not very important. I really can't be bothered with this anymore to be perfectly honest. I have become very disillusioned with wikipedia recently and the mass of red tape surrounding it. There is nothing to show that a minor noble family should have a wikipedia title that gives it the impression that it is a royal house and common sense screams that this move should not be controversial but because it has flown under the radar for 10 years we have to keep it like this. Regardless of the fact that there are no sources to show this is the common name for the page I am sure there will be a sufficient number of editors to vote against the move (and I do not mean !vote). Maybe thanks to Game of Thrones "House of" has really come to change what people think the proper usage is so who am I to go against progress. Wikipedia is a reflection of society and if society is dumbing down then in all logic so will wikipedia. Dom from Paris (talk) 10:01, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title