Talk:Doom metal

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Based on what I've seen while researching this, I know I'm going to regret opening this can of worms, but - Are we sure Jacula, listed as one of the "other notable groups" from the 1970s, really existed as a notable or even real band in that decade?  
Jacula was introduced in the Doom Metal page on "14:37, 27 August 2016‎ ABC paulista" - and I think ABC paulista added it in good faith based on the band's claims, but the citation used is a link to a page under construction, which seems to have been the band's own page on their label's website, and this isn't my first time running into trouble tracing Jacula to any legitimate source earlier than the year 2000 or so.
The band's Wikipedia page looks downright suspicious over its history, the folks at the Metal Archives seem to have nothing on them while finding their strangely modern production suspect, the only citations I can find for the band's existence before the 1990s seem to come from the band's autobiographies and hype appearing in blogs and wikis suddenly through the 2000s, and their pre-2000 autobiography claiming to have invented extreme metal before Black Sabbath existed reads like something from "This is Spinal Tap" with the punchlines filed off:
https://dangerousminds.net/comments/bleak_sabbath_did_the_mysterious_occult_group_jacula_invent_black_metal_in_ 
Based on everything I've seen when researching Jacula and Antonius Rex back in the early 2000s, and again now, I have no reason to think this band isn't... "exaggerating their back story a little".  Furthermore, I think Wikipedia (along with a bunch of other wikis and blogs and zine review pages) are being used to help build a fake history for a pair of bands (Jacula, Antonius Rex) that I don't think existed much earlier than the year 2001.  Jacula claims to be a metal band older than Black Sabbath that nobody has heard of until the band started trying to sell "rare" and suspiciously modern-sounding records in the 2000s; I can't find such extraordinary claims credible, without proof more extraordinary than the band's own hype posted to wikis and blogs long after the fact.
Can anyone really demonstrate that Jacula were...
# Really an active band in the 1970s [EDIT:  I think they might have been active in the 1970s, but NOT the 1960s, and not as the same band after the 1970s], and
# If so, that they were notable enough to have left any genuine footnotes in 1970s history that didn't have to be added by the band's promotion after the fact?  (EDIT: I think they might have been a genuine band in the 1970s, but NOT a notable "doom metal" act - I think the metal songs were recorded by different musicians - notably the original musicians' son - no earlier than the 1990s; thus, I would suggest that Jacula were not a real doom metal act or even a metal act, let alone a notable one, in the 1960s or 1970s.)
16:01, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at Jacula's source, you'll see that that page is from Sputnikmusic, a well-known and renowed source here. It's neither near close as being Jaculas's own page, nor a label's website. ABC paulista (talk) 02:30, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Jacula review by Sputnikmusic doom metal is not mentioned, the linked article is about Flower Travellin' band and it is also under construction so that remains WITHOUT SOURCES. Also, I ask you: are the Sputnikmusic reviewers music critics? They have nicknames and it is not clear what are the criteria to be considered a member of the staff. It does not seem like a professional site to me, it is not All Music Guide, About.com, Kerrang or such. Why is it considered a professional source, are there proofs of it being compiled by competent people? Jacua were formed in 1972 according to early sources (in 1969 they were called Dietro Noi Deserto and they played beat music, as quoted by newspapers articles of those years, and collectors who lived those times). Sometimes, in the later years, Bartoccetti said that they were born in 1969, sometimes he said they were born in 1966, continuosly contradicting himself also stating that "In Cauda" was released in few copie, never released or distributed to religious cults, depending on the interview. The album does not appear on the Gnome catalogue from the '60s and the cover (turned black-and-white) comes from a comic book which came out in 1972 ("Terror" #27). The album "In Cauda" was recorded at the end of the 1990s (in the SIAE register the son of Bartocetti, born in 1977, is credited as having contributed to compose the album) and is not mentioned in the band's catalogue nor it is in any interview until the late '90s/early2000s. The leader of Black Widow Records (who printed the album in 2001) said that even he never saw the supposed original album. --79.52.115.179 (talk) 17:09, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much!  At the risk of beating a dead horse, first, I stand corrected - Sputnikmusic is a review site, not the band's label site.  Nevertheless, I have to agree with the commenter above:  Sputnikmusic's reviewers appear to be anonymous amateur reviewers, the reviewer behind the Jacula review only posted seven reviews, all within a span of a couple months, the glowingly positive Jacula review being the first of them, before the reviewer disappeared.  It's frightfully easy to create a "sock puppet" account: I was able to create an account to post a review with rather easily, there don't appear to be any particular requirements for doing so, and the only thing standing between a fake review and the public are anonymous moderators who moderate based on standards I couldn't find; it looks like we're simply depending on a volunteer's ability to catch a suspicious-sounding review.On further reflection, I believe that a version of Jacula existed in the 1970s, recording prog music in the form of organ music and sound effects with spoken word passages, poetry readings, or vocals.  But, it's worth noting that Discogs.com now lists the In Caudo... album as a product of the year 2001, and even the Sputnikmusic site concedes that elements of the so-called 1969 album probably weren't recorded before 1980, and researching the Bartoccettis further reveals that there are two different musicians named "A. Bartoccetti":  Antonio Bartoccetti (prog musician born in 1946), and Anthony Bartoccetti (AKA "Rex Anthony", DJ and experimental/electronic music enthusiast born in 1977), who seems to be son of the elder Atonio Bartoccetti and producer Doris Norton.  I'll also note that several bands relating to Antonio Bartoccetti, Anthony Bartoccetti, A. Bartoccetti, Anthony Rex, Rex Anthony, Atonius Rex, Antonius Bartocetti, etc. were active in the early 1970s, before a period of almost 20 years of inactivity, before activity resumed in the 1990s.What I THINK might be happening with Jacula is that the elder Antonio Bartoccetti recorded the prog organ music in the 1970s with his wife Doris Norton producing and performing vocals, with the couple also being involved in one or two other Italian prog acts, before retiring those efforts, with Doris apparently being active through the 1980s and 1990s as a producer.  By the 1990s or 2000s (the 2000s seem more likely), the younger Anthony Bartoccetti appears to have dubbed some of the older recordings into new, modern releases under his father's name, back-dating the recordings to the 1960s, perhaps as a misguided tribute to his parents, or (I think more likely) as a hoax taking advantage of interest in vintage, obscure underground "proto-metal" acts.In short, I think Jacula's organ-based prog music might have been legitimately produced in the 1970s, but the alleged 1969 "doom metal" is actually a far more recent product of the original musician's son, using some samples from the 1970s.  Unfortunately, this is speculation:  everything about this band and the people involved is dubious and difficult to sort between reliable fact, and fiction.Ywhateley (talk) 21:44, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jacula? 

message: I recently edited this page in regards to the wrongly attributed quote in “Louder Than Hell” book with the correct source information, the correct page #, and the direct quote and wiki moderator recently changed it back to the original (wrongly attributed) content. 67.11.2.113 (talk) 07:16, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Louder Than Hell book source wrongly attributed to wrong person.  

message: As the headline suggests, I'd like to cut out Black Sabbath categorized as a doom metal band. Black Sabbath is often considered the first heavy metal band (which is totally fine and has some foundation) but they are clearly not dedicated to the overarching sound of the doom metal genre. I think this might even plausible to people who don't know any doom metal. 2001:16B8:B20D:F800:284C:1B43:DC4A:E69D (talk) 09:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable sources routinely describe them as doom and being integral to the start of the doom genre. — Czello (music) 10:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Sabbath is clearly not doom metal