Talk:The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll

message: The section on "The song" strikes me as being original research, particularly the beginning "analysis" of the cane's arc and whatnot.  Even if it were referenced, it's kindof weak and unnecessary.  204.68.130.234 (talk) 14:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Research

message: "This is a true story(ha, ha, ha) no really, taken straight from the newspapers, (ha, ha) nothing has been changed but the words,(ha,ha)." Bob Dylan, Manchester Free Trade Hall, England, 1965.Lion King 00:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure I understand your remark. Are you doubting the veracity of the story, or just objecting to Dylan chuckling? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I'ts not my remark, it's Dylan's. I'd be very interested to know what you make of it. Lion King 21:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't particularly make anything of it, partly because the tone of laughter is not something easily conveyed on the written page. But, in any event, what I make of it would not be encyclopedic. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole thing sounds like a hoax (the backstory, not the murder) to me, in order to suggest that things in 1961 were just as bad as in 1861. In know, it's unthinkable. After all, would Bob Dylan lie? 2604:2000:1580:425C:1920:48F:A553:49A1 (talk) 17:43, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: True Story?

message: Wikipedia entry: "Dylan's song strongly implies that his upper-class status contributed to the relatively low length of the sentence. However, after the sentence was announced, the New York Herald Tribune conjectured that Zantzinger was not given a longer sentence to keep him out of the state prison, since the notoriety of his crime would make him a marked target among its largely African American inmates (Zantzinger instead served his time in the comparative safety of the Washington county jail)."
Don't these couple of sentences just excuse the light sentence he was given?  Is it the courts place to protect rich whites from poor blacks inside prison? OR should they protect poor blacks from rich whites outside prison?  According to this description of the case, which I know little about, the judge made his decision that rich whites are more important than poor blacks.   The quote above agrees with that judgement.  This kind of justification of atrocities seems to be what Dylan is talking about when he says, "You who philosophize disgrace ...".  It's ironic.  One who philosophizes disgrace should not be writing this entry.  It goes against the spirit invoked by the song. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.111.215.225 (talk • contribs) 4 June 2006.
: Looks to me like the burden of the wording problem is entirely on the word "however", which suggests contrast where there is none. I will remove that word. - Jmabel | Talk 20:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philosophizing Disgrace? 

message: My dictionary says it means "the patterns of rhythm and sound used in poetry, he theory or study of these patterns, or the rules governing them, the patterns of stress and intonation in a language". But this is a pretty obscure word (I'm a native English speaker with a reasonably large vocabulary and I had to look it up), and doesn't seem accurate. Is there a better word? Natalie 17:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the correct technical term, though I agree it is a bit obscure. I can't think of another, though. And, yes, judging by your writing, the fact that you don't know the word counts for something. - Jmabel | Talk 22:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prosody? 

message: Wikipedia: At about 1:30 in the morning of the 9th, he ordered a drink from barmaid Carroll and when she didn't bring it immediately, he cursed at her to which Carroll replied: "I'm hurrying as fast as I can." Zantzinger said: "I don't have to take that kind of shit off a nigger," and struck her on the shoulder with the cane. Carroll was heard to remark "I feel deathly ill, that man has upset me so" soon after, before collapsing and being taken to the hospital.
Is this conversation really accurate? Is there any proof that those were the words exchanged? It's worded as if it's a fact, but I have not come across anything to back this up. - RapMasterK 23:01, 04 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Facts? 

message: My 'graph 2 (Part of former 'graph 1, plus 1st sent of former 'graph 2):
# "rather than the physical assault itself": I replaced that "with rather than blunt-force trauma from the blow (which left no lasting mark)". The assault was "physical" -- not just in the picky sense of the threat being communicated by something other than magical influence, but also in the fact that he touched her -- but the point here is what mediated the harm: my impression is that, as with the aspect i noted above re battery, is "the likel[ihood of] caus[ing] bodily harm" via the assault. In fact, the inclusion of a touch in his assault may well have been a major factor in making the assault psychologically traumatic enough to have effected the death in her particular case. But even if that were provable, the unlikelihood of the touch having that impact (as far as he knew) would mean that he was not a person who "knew or should have known" how deadly his act would be. I'm suggesting that despite the touch, his act was less legally culpable than shouting "Boo!" behind someone that you know is recovering from a heart attack, and that you might be prosecuted for a "reckless indifference" murder), if that invalid arrested in the next minute and eventually died.
# BTW, re the immediately preceding, perhaps i should have written "virtual certainty ... no lasting mark, and the unlikelihood of his being able to anticipate it.)" But IANAL, and IMO someone closer to being one should intervene if we're going to slice the distinctions any thinner.)
# IANAD either, but my impression is that while pathologists consider the states of various organs to be facts that they establish, "cause of death" conclusions are, in varying degrees depending on the case, deductions from the organic findings, about the relative probabilities of different possible causes. I reworded to reflect that distinction, but didn't quibble about the fact that the existence of the hemorrhage was presumably a definite finding. (The distinction? Conditions not detected could have caused death, with the hemorrhage occurring so soon after as to be indistinguishable from an death-causing hemorrhage, whence the expression (listening, fellow CSI fans?) "perimortem".)
# "(the cane left no mark on her)": Verifiable only if someone opened her clothing immediately after the assault, and probably also continued to observe for some further period.  I did a little experiment, with my forearm and a 24-inch flexible steel ruler. (It didn't hurt enough to avoid my ignoring the brief sting (which i infer from trying something similar, later, on the other arm), in my preoccupation with the visible effects.) There was a dim, ruler-width, straight-sided depression for about 30 seconds, and a roughly circular reddening, after a couple minutes but fading within 15.  IMO a non-lasting mark almost certainly cannot be ruled out, and the old version mis-stated one of the autopsy findings: any blow (like the one apparently described by witnesses) "left no lasting mark", as i worded it.
--Jerzy•t 11:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jerzy, the article now reads, without any citation, His charge was reduced to manslaughter and assault, based on the likelihood that it was her stress reaction to his verbal and physical abuse led to the intracranial bleeding, rather than blunt-force trauma from the blow that left no lasting mark. Are you saying above that you speculated on why his charges were reduced, speculated on why she died, speculated on the legal standard for manslaughter versus murder, and performed original research as to whether the cane left marks or not? Or are these lines based on a verifiable source?  I haven't seen anything about the reason for his charges being reduced except for some cynical aside that he was a white guy catching a break from a white system.  Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but I don't understand whether you cast these sentences this way based on WP:RS or on your own conclusions.  I also don't understand your acronyms "IANAD" and "IANAL."  Help! -- LisaSmall T/C 04:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The incident" secn: chgs & citn tags, 2 

message: My 'graph 3 (Rest of former 'graph 2): 
# "strongly implies that": That's like being very unique. You either imply or you don't, and in this case he didn't, tho he invited listeners to infer. I said "The song juxtaposes" the presumed cause and effect.
# "the notoriety of his crime would" is ambiguous between being a fact or part of the Trib's conjecture. I avoided ambiguity with "on the logic that his notoriety would"; perhaps we could say more if we had the citation (whose absence i did not tag).
# "marked target" is a hyperbolic metaphor; i made it "a target for abuse", more clearly keeping "target" metaphorical by specifying the kind of target, rather than inviting open more specific, and less specifically metaphorical, completions like "for death" and "for assassination".
# "among its largely black inmates" suggests their race is more directly to the point than in my "the largely black state prison," tho i'm not certain i've really reduced the implicit connection between (all) the black inmates there and the people making him a target. Am i just associating race with the institution instead of its inmates, but logically making the same suggestions? Or by focusing on race and the institution, have i evoked the atmosphere there being shaped by race, without making individuals'(every individual's) race the focus of what that atmosphere is likely to call forth from some individuals?
# I indicated the distance to the jail in question, but i did not mention that Wash Co. looks to be the last county before the range that demarcated anti-Confederate West Virgina the rest of the former territory of Virgina -- i.e., westernmost county but for two, and really out in the sticks. But i failed to solicit info on the location of the trial and sentence: Did he get a change of venue (to Hagerstown, according to an edit summary in the history -- which the Wash. Co. seat)? Did that imply imprisonment in either state pen or that county's jail? Is he from Wash Co.? Or nearby?
# "also paid": I inserted before that "Independently of his sentence," having noted the recent removal of "of his own volition," which i also object to, believing it is too vague and too suggestive of (inherantly unverifiably) beneficent intention. While it calls for a citation, we could however know whether it was a part of his sentence (and i assume that the editor meant it wasn't), and whether it was made known to the judge in open court before sentencing. (If it was done after, that's worth also making explicit.)
# "to the Carroll family the sum of twenty-five thousand dollars." Besides a minor change of order of the phrases, i fact-tagged "to Carroll's family", which i doubt is accurate: other likelier possibilities are "to her estate" and "divided among the individual members of her family". It also is incomplete w/o indicating whether the payment was in consideration of anything (agreement not to sue, statement of intention not to sue) or was made with a statement of purpose, perhaps with the effect that a court could weigh whether acceptance of the payment (or cashing the check) demonstrated any suit-relevant state of mind in the recipient(s). (BTW, i think it's true in every state that a check is simply an unconditional order to deliver funds, even if the account holder tries to use endorsement of the check as evidence of acceptance of  conditions written on the check, like "in full payment". But i'm not sure that rules out getting admitted as evidence a check that might sway a jury's thinking.)
--Jerzy•t 11:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In Jerzy's Point 7 above, I am interested in this payment too and am looking through some of the general references to find out where the Wiki editor who put it in got it.  "To Carroll's family" v. "to her estate" v. "divided among..." makes no substantive difference in the context of this encyclopedia article.  I updated the fact tag to January to indicate someone's actively working on resolving this fact issue. -- LisaSmall T/C 04:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The incident" secn: chgs & citn tags, 3 

message: My 'graph 4 (former 'graph 3)
# How about that, no significant change.
My 'graph 5 (former 'graph 5) 
# I switched the last two paragraphs: see my 6th, below.
# "that not only did he rent out properties which he no longer owned, but even won": Defective syntax; reworded with, i think fewer double negatives: "that he also he rented out properties which he no longer owned, and had even won.
# "families who rented": They're called "tenants", unless you're trying to win sympathy for the suffering kids, which is PoV unless the encyclopedicity of the cases beyond the use of the song is established.
# "were black, coupled with Zantzinger's past": replaced with "were black, and the white Zantzinger's crime against the black Carroll", this being where her race becomes relevant.
# "led to charges of racism": We don't know what caused the charges to be made, but these facts "were cited in characterizing him as racist." ("Charge" is a bad word to apply to a personal characteristic of a convicted of a charge of manslaughter.
My 'graph 6 (former 'graph 4): 
# Re switch of order: putting Z's belated defense in its chronological order.  Unless a separate "controversy" section should be created, his defense is too diffident to appear just after writing of the song: it's not about setting straight the record created earlier, but rather about him finally making public his grousing about the faits accompli that he had sat still for for 35 years.
# "is vitriolic in his scorn": "vitriolic" is PoV and  ambiguous (vitriol means, IIRC, "hydrochloric acid"). I put "expressed scorn". 
# "claiming that the song is inaccurate": insignificant, especially since misspelling his name is an uncontested inaccuracy. Also redundant to whatever was paraprased(?) as "total lie". 
# "a total lie": This is attributed to him in an indirect quote; if it's his wording, put it in quotes, bcz it must at least be hyperbole: the song says he was got a 6-month sentence for Carroll's death, and there is no sign that he is contesting at least the that, and the song is at worst a partial lie.
# "never attempted". Give us a citation, that will let us reword with something verifiable. It could never be shown that he never attempted to get his lawyer to take a shot, bcz you can't prove his lawyer  isn't lying to protect the confidentiality of their discussion of why it would be hopeless.
--Jerzy•t 11:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The incident" secn: chgs & citn tags, 4 

message: I removed from the "The Homicide" secn
: In addition to her work at the hotel, Hattie Carroll, at 51, was the mother of eleven children and president of a black social club.The Spinsters' Ball February 22, 1963, TIME magazine. 
bcz it is irrelevant morally and legally, and its sentimental impact is (so far) off topic. Presumably it would be relevant if we showed any seriousness about covering the national interest in the case, and it is also important if we flesh out our coverage of Dylan's attention/inattention to the factual content of the song:
: Hattie Carroll was a maid in the kitchen
: She was fifty [-one?] years old and gave birth to ten [attention to meter over facts!] children
would be a relevant place for what i brought here for further attention.
--Jerzy•t 19:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongly disagree.  I've restored the bio info about Hattie Carroll, which is highly relevant and directly on topic in an article titled The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll.  Her background belongs here and to limit her identity to "black maid" reduces her to a racial stereotype.  There's plenty of bio detail about her white assailant.  Carroll is the more relevant individual; she is the person named in the title of the song.  Readers should be allowed to compare for themselves as much as is known about her full identity in life with her identity in the song.  I put it in a different section of the article where you may feel it flows better, but it is not at all off-topic.  Such information is highly relevant to the legal system at trial and sentencing, and that is part of what made this case so scandalous.  Beyond that, it's not appropriate to edit an article about the background of a song by making determinations of whether facts have "legal relevance" to the underlying case in the first place.  Finally, re the moral relevance, as NPOV editors,  Wikipedia requires us to leave it to the reader what moral weight they give to the facts, and it's not our place to censor them. --LisaSmall T/C 21:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Different issue: Jerzy, on the issue of "attention to meter over facts" you suggest as to why Dylan chose to say ten children rather than the actual 11, apparently he picked this up from a very early news report which has been transcribed here.  I don't know how much we can say about Dylan's 10 v. 11 choice without slipping into our own speculation, which falls afoul of WP:NOR. Reading Absolutely Dylan would probably provide more detail, and speculations made by the book's authors could be cited (as such).  Also, hope you'll forgive me, I refactored this section of the talk page from your title, "Accuracy Section?" to "Hattie Carroll accuracy" to be more descriptive.  If it's not okay, feel free to change it back.  -- LisaSmall T/C 01:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hattie Carroll accuracy 

message: The following 5 'graphs, which contradict the accompanying article in places, are moved to this talk page from The Times They Are a-Changin'#The songs. The new section there deserves more than the lk to this talk page's article that i left, but probably needs at most a well chosen 'graph or two, like the other songs. Some of the following is apparently wrong (contradicting the accompanying article without as much sourcing), but there is probably verifiable and useful material to add:
:"Possibly the most focused and precise and persuasive of [Dylan's] protest songs", according to Wyman, "'The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll' tells the story of a rich tobacco-farm owner (William Zantzinger, who is called "William Zanzinger" in the song) who kills his black servant (Hattie Carroll).  Based on actual events, the song portrays Zantzinger as a privileged individual who kills Carroll by striking her with his cane at a society gathering, escaping with a nominal sentence because of his political connections.
:The actual incident occurred at a society ball at the Emerson Hotel in Baltimore, Maryland on February 9 1963. Twenty-four-year-old Zantzinger was intoxicated and began striking people with a wooden carnival cane. One of the people he struck was Carroll, then a fifty-one-year-old barmaid with an enlarged heart and severe hypertension. When she questioned his need for another drink, Zantzinger became verbally abusive. He succeeded in upsetting Carroll, and on returning to the kitchen she complained about Zantzinger to a co-worker. Carroll then collapsed, and she was taken to a hospital where she died the following morning. Though there were no severe marks reported on Carroll's body, no autopsy was performed to determine the exact cause of death.
:Zantzinger was charged with involuntary manslaughter since his actions, according to the courts, contributed to "a tremendous emotional upsurge" that ultimately killed her; on August 28 1963, Zantzinger was sentenced to six months in prison, which he began serving on September 15, and paid $25,000 in damages to Carroll's family.
:"The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" suggests that Zantzinger had political connections that came to his advantage during sentencing. His father, Richard C. Zantzinger, had served a term in the Maryland legislature and on the state planning commission. 
:A few critics like Clinton Heylin would take issue with the facts portrayed in the song, but even Heylin himself conceded that the song is "a brilliant evocation of the kind of miscarriage of justice the color of a woman's skin could bring...[it is] Dylan's 'Vanity of Human Wishes'...a masterpiece of drama and wordplay..."
--Jerzy•t 19:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As to the last sent above, Samuel_Johnson#Poetry lists "Vanity of Human Wishes", and discusses a revised pair of lines.--Jerzy•t 23:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material to integrate from article on album 

message: there should be no comma in 1960s. some of the best have made this mistake. william f. buckley, jr. made it in print for at least the first couple of decades of his public career before someone finally woke up and brought it to his attention. just imagine his horror.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.162.242 (talk) 05:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  commas 

message: A  box was inserted in the "Impact on Zantzinger" section by someone who did not mention it in their edit explanation, suggesting he should be pulled out of this article and given one of his own.  I removed the box.  William Zantzinger has no encyclopedic weight except as the subject of this famous song.  Even in the context of the Wiki Criminal Biography project, I couldn't justify giving him a separate article.  Furthermore, removing his bio data from this article leaves the song without context and without contrast to the actual crime. Also, this issue has already been discussed here on the talk page in the trust fund discussion above.  
Finally, whoever pulled the crime categories out of the hidden materials at the end of this article, without explanation—please don't do that. It is an important part of Wikipedia:CRIMINAL. -- LisaSmall T/C 23:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Split: No

message: I removed :Category:American fraudsters because this song is obviously not a fraudster.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 01:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fraudster 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:TimesChangin'.jpg

message: There is an unconfirmed report on expectingrain.com that he has died.  Any WPers in the local press area able to confirm? Calum (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Confirmed:   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calum (talk • contribs) 14:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death of William Zan(t)zinger 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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