Talk:Nicholas Murray Butler

message: A lot of this entry seems to be copied almost verbatim from the Nobel.org bio.  I think it violates copyright - needs to be rewritten.  Anyone?  Bruxism 02:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't see anything contradictory - a lot of people supported WWI and then got all big on international peace in the aftermath.  john k 04:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That was the War To End All Wars, was it not? So one could have supported it in the hope that its successful conclusion would lead to permanent peace.Hi There 07:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: While being President of Columbia is a reasonably notable position, Butler's selection as a VP candidate ought to be mentioned in the infobox. Is there any policy-based reason for its exclusion? Alansohn (talk) 16:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: VP in infobox

message: https://www.college.columbia.edu/cct_archive/jan02/jan02_cover_architecture.html
See the following quotes from Columbia College Today as proof of Butler's Anti-Semitism
"Butler wanted to reduce the number of New Yorkers who attended Columbia College, because New York City students were disproportionately from immigrant families and Jewish. In order to attract larger numbers of young Episcopalian gentlemen, the future leaders of the country, Butler made an effort to nationalize the College, that is, to draw students from outside New York City. Whereas before 1910 the prevailing view in higher education had been that qualified students should not be turned away, Butler helped to develop the notion of "selective admission," whereby a college conveyed its distinction and prestige by turning away qualified students. Application forms were modified in 1919 to inquire about family history; the forms asked not only for the candidate's place of birth, but his religion, his father's place of birth and his father's occupation. The application also required a photograph of the applicant and an interview.
This change in admissions policies produced the desired effect. From 1920 to 1930, that is the first decade of the new admissions policy, the percentage of Columbia students coming from New York City dropped from 54 percent to 23 percent, and what one administrator called "the invasion of the Jewish student" was contained. Dean of the College Herbert E. Hawkes informed Yale's director of admissions in 1930 that "the proportion of Jews in Columbia has been reduced from about 40 percent to 20 percent." But the issue of selectivity, of who should be admitted to Columbia, persisted. In 1933 President Butler instructed Dean Hawkes: "I don't know whether it is at all practicable, but it would be highly judicious if...some way could be found to see to it that individuals of the undesirable type did not get in Columbia College, no matter what their record in the very important matter of As and Bs."
Dormitories enabled Butler to promote his elitist and more homogenous vision of the student body. New Yorkers did not need dormitories or could not afford them; local boys commuted from home. Dormitories were needed for out-of-town students. The creation of a residential College separated the wealthier, often Episcopalian students whom Butler valued more highly from the day students who commuted from the Lower East Side, Brooklyn and places farther removed. Dorms also fostered student interaction and placed more emphasis on social activities. This communal social life tended to focus the undivided loyalty of residential students on the College, unlike commuting students who retained competing urban attachments."
In connection to the quote in the section "Butler and racism": "In population, in language, and in economic life (Hawaii) is distinctly a foreign land. …(Its people) are not and could not be members of the United States of America in any true sense"., I could not find it in the link referenced. TERRITORIES: Knock on the Door. And even if the quote is found somewhere else, I wonder whether the title of the section should be changed, or rather, to add the quote somewhere else. The quote says nothing about race. Merely basing the argument that "Butler was a racist" against Hawaiian people, might be a misinterpretation. The sentiment could be a strong nationalism, rather than racism.
I found the same problem with the following part:
Here there are unsourced accusations and the only link in that paragraph ("DR. BUTLER REFUSES TO BAR NAZI ENVOY; Columbia Head Rejects Plea by Students to Cancel Dr. Luther's Address. CALLS REQUEST ILLIBERAL Stresses Need for Academic Freedom – Club Is Reported Planning Demonstration."), cannot be accessed without buying it.
Yet, on Hitler and fascism this is what the real Butler has to say:
In connection to the section "Butler and antisemitism", this is what was stated in the article:
The whole argument is based on speculation. I've dared to remove the whole section in view of not even one single sound reference and a great speculative prejudiced writing style which do not quote a single direct statement from the person in question. If something is to be mentioned, let it be mentioned in the correct way. The whole section above had only four links, the first contains nothing; the second [Isaac Asimov, In Memory Yet Green, Doubleday, 1979] is from a book by a science fiction writer and it's missing the page; the third link is dead and there is nothing in the previous sentence directly indicating anti-Semitism, and the four link says: ""There is no evidence that Butler was [anti-Semite]. Although frustated applicants for positions at Columbia blamed their falures on its stiff, forbidding president, an essay in January 1986 issue of Commentary in the late 1930s treats Butler more accurately. Although religious and ethnic prejudices did exist among the Columbia faculty, Butler himself did nothing to encourage them." In view of this, there is nothing historical to sustain such a speculative section. --Goose friend (talk) 06:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verified accusations of racism or anti-Semitism 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Seems inaccurate to not, at least, have a section titled "Controversy" in this article. Goose friend dubiously removed the entire section with details about potential antisemitism even though there is much evidence, at least in action, to support the fact that Butler was a man of his day in this regard.
In the least, and especially in these times, this article should have details about Butler's Jewish quota systemhttp://www.columbia.edu/~wc116/jewprob.html, the Seth Low Junior College (Predecessor Institutions), and the 1933 Nazi emissary visithttps://www.columbiaspectator.com/the-eye/2017/10/03/nicholas-murray-butler-versus-antifa/. A more accurate article might include details on the related experiences of Herbert Aptheker, Isaac Asimov, Red Auerbach, and Allen Ginsberg.
Edward Le Comte said it best: "Butler’s anti-Semitism 'if it existed, would not be easily detected,' is correct, but not, as he suggests, 'because Butler was so far from coarse.' The distaste for Jews prevalent in the circles in which Butler moved was discernible, genteel as it might be. It was after all the era when Morris Raphael Cohen could be turned down for a Yale appointment because 'he didn’t know how to wear a dinner jacket.'" https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/butler-at-columbia
Irony abounds in Goose friend pronouncement of a "prejudiced writing style," and, to me, the most searing poetic irony lies in the article's single use of the word "Jew" in Ginsberg's scrawled: "Fuck the Jews."
If it is Goose friend's intention to make America great again by whitewashing history, they are in good company on Wikipedia and it will take much work to undo the damage now and to future generations.
Here are some other good references to the point:
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/the-eye/2017/10/03/nicholas-murray-butler-versus-antifa/
http://www.columbia-current.org/seth_low_junior_college.html
http://www.wikicu.com/Seth_Low_Junior_College
http://spectatorarchive.library.columbia.edu/cgi-bin/columbia?a=d&d=cs19280403-01.2.7
https://www.nytimes.com/1936/03/05/archives/seth-low-college-to-be-abandoned-brooklyn-unit-of-columbia-facing.html
https://books.google.com/books/about/Seth_Low_Junior_College_of_Columbia_Univ.html?id=dqMStwAACAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=1u0sPzMEwOUC&pg=PA376&lpg=PA376&dq=seth+low+junior+college&source=bl&ots=y3gNF-Yj3u&sig=QSFGjA9Rg-mn4CBJj-ipNpVzUJ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiE_-eQ3uLbAhUJITQIHTJoBtA4ChDoAQg1MAI#v=onepage&q=seth%20low%20junior%20college&f=false
http://www.wikicu.com/Nicholas_Murray_Butler
http://magazine.columbia.edu/reviews/spring-2010/hear-no-evil
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/butler-at-columbia/
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/eye/2016/04/27/man-myth-library-nicholas-murray-butler/
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/22/books/review/an-empty-robe.html
https://cup.columbia.edu/book/nicholas-miraculous/9780231174213
http://www.liquisearch.com/nicholas_murray_butler/butler_and_anti-semitism
http://sheldonkirshner.com/u-s-universities-and-the-rise-of-nazism-in-germany/
https://books.google.com/books?id=SVA0389HG-UC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=nicholas+murray+butler+anti+semitic&source=bl&ots=aFMbHtfmid&sig=YCoMWMVdnEhRom6QMBLy_R4CrPQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP8PSX4eLbAhXKIDQIHQpYAFw4FBDoAQg0MAU#v=onepage&q=nicholas%20murray%20butler%20anti%20semitic&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_School_of_General_Studies#Defunct_predecessors
Joel S Bateman (talk) 18:18, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This deep concern is important, clearly stated, well defined, and apparently wholly ignored. I'm going to add a brief sentence to the Intro, hopefully compliant with WP:NPOV and other guidelines.  Left Central (talk) 05:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, here's the sentence I just crafted for the end of the Intro: "However, Butler's anti-semitism in the management of enrollment at Columbia and his sympathy for fascism and Nazism have led to reconsideration of the full spectrum of his work.[citation needed]" It's important for me to note that in WP universe the huge preponderance of my occasional edits (not quite 2K in total) are simply copy edits. I am not qualified to attempt an incorporation of Joel S Bateman's concerns as a new section on anti-semitism tied to the remaining existing section on fascism & Nazism. Such expansion is clearly warranted for Encyclopedic accuracy.  Thanks for your consideration; these are difficult topics.  Left Central (talk) 06:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy