Talk:Battle of Suomussalmi

message: I added a small bit of information to the analysis, only to give a more full understanding of the various factors leading to Finnish success.  Let me know if you have any problems.
-Jclingerman (4/25/06) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jclingerman (talk • contribs) 07:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Analysis Dot

message: Hi,
Just some notices. Soviets lost more than 40 000 troops in this battle. Only 5000 out of 48 000 men of the 9th Army made it back to Soviet Union. Two divisions (163rd and 44th) and one ski brigade were totally destroyed.
The battle was a great humiliation to the mighty Red Army which had not gone trough this kind of defied before. And as much it was humiliation for RA it was a glorious victory for Finnish Defence Forces.
Best wishes,
OJ from Finland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.241.194.70 (talk) 21:39, 23 February 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Ski brigade?? Tank brigade is right, I think... Cinik 62.209.237.4 08:25, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Casualties

message: I just cleaned up the grammer a bit in the Battle section.  I do not believe I changed anything of what the author intended to say.  I think that the word 'trace' is not what was intended, but could not figure out what should be there.  Also, there is mention of the Finns destroying a village.  Is this Raat?  It is not clear from the text.  PerlKnitter 15:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean up

message: Can anyone find verifiable sources for the casualties? The amount of soviet dead was just changed from 16000-35000 to c. 22500 - which seems somewhat suspicious, but I can find even fewer sources for the former numbers than for the latter (though one refers to it as a conservative estimate). Additionally, the article currently cites Finnish losses as 350 KIA, which seems a bit low, and some reports I've found speak of about 900 with over a thousand wounded. It's true enough that specific figures for the Soviet side are not available, due to the circumstances. --Kizor 00:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This link http://www.winterwar.com/Battles/Suomussalmi2.htm gives 5000 killed or wounded for the Soviets not 27K and gives this for the Finns 350 KIA, 600 wounded and 70 missing —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.249.112.176 (talk) 02:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but link http://www.winterwar.com/Battles/Suomussalmi2.htm gives not this! He gives 5000 bodies, that was found in area Suomussalmi-Alassalmi 1)this area is full deep forrest - many bodies was not found 2) this is not all area of battle 3) this is only tail battle - without battle on Raate road, diferent from this article. On Raateroad was totaly destroyed 44th division and 21th tank brigade. Cinik 09:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

text: So we decided to abandon Russian sources for Russian losses? Also, the 43 "tanks" includes even Komsomolets tractors. 69.165.233.6 (talk) 17:16, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Trouble with casualty numbers

message: Winter War is often acepted as part of WWII. Soviet Union was ally of Germany in this time an his expansion is part of WWII. And factor, that somebody do not agree with this, is not relevant reason for displacing this article from category, who somebody was this article search. Cinik 14:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I need sources.  Winter War currently stands as a contemporary war to World War II.  Until that changes, we can't change any of the battles. Oberiko 16:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WW II

message: I wrote "Soviet army being poorly equipped for winter warfare" because they were better equipped in almost every other aspect than winter clothing.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Irtehprwn (talk • contribs) 18:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Leave the oroginal (Shipseggsbasket's version) because your citation hasn't references. MOJSKA 666 (msg) 19:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Change

message: Are we seriously not using Russian sources for Russian casualties? Estimates from the opposing force (not like those are known for notorious exaggerations, right?) made in 1940-1970s are somehow superior to contemporary research, based on the opening of Soviet archives in the 1990s, because we have lots of books supporting each other? Contemporary Russian historiography gives much smaller numbers for Soviet casualties in the battle. For example, the above quoted Oleg Kiselev claims 6171 killed and missing (this number includes prisoners of war), 4001 wounded and around 2800 non-combat casualties (mostly from the elements) - some 12 000 overall, with about half of them dead. I suggest editing the infobox accordingly. Mudriy zmei (talk) 01:25, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet casualties poor source 

message: 1. Soviet units. Number of men in divisions and casualties. Source: Article by Oleg Kiselev. http://raatteentie.heninen.net/sotatapahtumat/klio.htm
1.1 Number of men in divisions (including engineers, medics, etc.) 
Strength of the 163rd Division is taken as the sum of the strength of the 163rd Division as of 30 November (12,762) and 1 battalion of the 305 Regiment of the 44th Division (800), which had been attached to the 163rd Division since mid-December. The 47th Corps units strength is taken as the difference between the total strength of 163 Division and Corps units (16,000) and that of 163 Division (12,762). The strength of the 44th Division is taken as the difference between the number of the 44th Division personnel as of 7th December (16,716) and the number of personnel of 2/305th regiment and its reconnaissance battalion (1,000) assigned to the Reboly sector, as well as the number of units that did not participate in the battle on the Raate road from 1st January to 7th January (3,500) and 1/305/44th Division (800), which returned to the 44th Division only on 9th January. The strength of the 3d NKVD regiment: There is probably a typo in the text of the article. " It is known that by the end of January 9, 850 of the regiment's 1,500 soldiers and commanders were on the Soviet side. Thus, the maximum number of irrecoverable losses of the regiment was up to 750 men. " I think it should have been written 1,600, not 1,500.
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В результате передачи численность 163-й СД уменьшилась до 12762 человек. В этом составе дивизия и перешла границу 30 ноября 1939 года. [..] К ним также следует добавить 1-й батальон 305-го стрелкового полка (около 800 человек), который в середине декабря был направлен на усиление 163-й СД и действовал в её составе. Тем не менее, этот батальон вернулся в состав 44-й СД уже 9-10 января и принял участие в заключительных боях на дороге Раате. [..] Таким образом, общая численность 163-й СД, корпусных частей и подразделений усиления составляла не 23 тысячи человек, а максимум 15,5-16 тысяч. [..] 44-я СД по состоянию на 7 декабря имела в своем составе 16716 человек. [..] Однако следует учитывать, что разведывательная рота и 2-й батальон 305-го стрелкового полка (всего около 1000 человек) были выделены из состава дивизии и направлены на ребольское направление. [..] Общую численность подразделений, не участвовавших в боях на дороге Раате 1-7 января или участвовавших в них незначительными силами, можно оценить приблизительно в 3,5 тысячи человек. [..]
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Сведения о потерях советских войск по Суомуссалми были бы не полными, если бы в статистику не были включены потери 3-го полка НКВД. К сожалению, подробных сведений о его потерях в распоряжении автора не имеется. Известно, что к исходу 9 января из 1,5 тыс. бойцов и командиров полка на советской стороне находилось 850 человек. Таким образом, максимальные безвозвратные потери полка составили до 750 человек. Если рассматривать боевые потери полка в тех же пропорциях, что и потери 44-й дивизии, то они могли составлять примерно 1100-1150 человек (из расчета, что безвозвратные потери составляли 66% боевых потерь). Здесь необходимо учитывать, что данные о не вернувшихся к 9 января могли быть завышенными (люди могли возвращаться и после этой даты). Кроме того, не совсем ясно, 850 вышедших человек уже включают раненных, больных и обмороженных, или нет. Поэтому указанные потери являются максимально возможными.
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1.2 Casualties 
See above: "The information on Soviet losses at Suomussalmi would not be complete if the statistics did not include losses of the 3rd NKVD Regiment. Unfortunately, the author has no detailed information on its losses at his disposal." (2014)
Battle on the Raate road. Oleg Kiselev (2019), time - 1:11:33 
3rd NKVD Regiment: 14 killed, 137 wounded, 100** missing, 251 total (** - Estimates) 
3-й полк НКВД: Убито 14, Ранено 137, Без вести 100**, Всего 251 (**  - Данные расчетные)
The data is the same as in Table 11, in the 2014 article, except for the 3rd NKVD Regiment. With corrections, total losses 12,073. The number of killed is taken as the sum of the number of killed and the number of missing, minus those taken prisoner of war (1,800*). Frostbite - "category of non-combat casualties - sick and partially frostbitten" (2800). * - "According to Finnish figures, about 500 men were taken prisoner during the battle for Suomussalmi in December, and another 1,300 were taken prisoner on the Raate road." ("Согласно финским данным, в боях за Суомуссалми в декабре было взято в плен около 500 человек, и еще 1300 человек было взято в плен на дороге Раате.") CypressL (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet units. Strength and casualties.