Talk:Ian Smith/Archive 1

message: I re-added the notice -- the article still seems slightly slanted in favor of minority government. Tlogmer 13:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be more specific (section, whatever) or the notice will be removed again. Wizzy…☎ 14:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: Does he really count as a prime minister considering that the majority of people in the country were barred from voting.  He should be called something that reflects he was not elected by a majority —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheOipian (talk • contribs) .
Does he really count as a prime minister? What kind of ridiculous question is that? Yes, Ian Smith did not help the situation in Zimbabwe, and generally I think he shoulders some of the blame for the current situation. Nonetheless, he was still Prime minister.
Should we call Robert Mugabe President, or give him a better title, such as "Evil Delusional Dictator" to better represent how he represses his opposition and destroys his own nation? I think that is a great idea. Maybe I'll make that edit. Oh yeah, and while I'm at it, I'll go make other dumbass modifications to every other article on here to support my own personal opinions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.160.173.86 (talk • contribs) .
:He was Prime Minister. No personal attacks, please. Wizzy…☎ 05:58, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: Does anyone know who Smith's cabinet members were, and which ministries (i.e., defense, education, whatever) they presided over? Please and thank you.
See Unilateral Declaration of Independence (Rhodesia)
BScar23625 11:21, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smith's Cabinet 

message: This entire passage strikes me as POV
=== Smith - the man ===
:While his personal courage and principles cannot be questioned, Smith was very much a product of the confined society into which he was born. Life revolved around the cricket team, the country club, the whites only school, the RAF and the company of other gentleman farmers. Smith never escaped from or saw beyond this.
:Smith and his fellow white settler politicians stubbornly resisted any meaningful move to black majority rule throughout the 60s and early 70s. When majority rule was eventually forced on Rhodesia from outside it came in the form of an abrupt capitulation to insurgent backed, black political parties. Smith saw this as "a betrayal" at the time, and has never shifted from this view. He still believes that UDI and the Bush War were both morally and tactically defensible. 
:In his autobiography (written in 2001), Smith uses the term "clean cut" about 40 times and "straighforward" about 20 times to describe individual Rhodesian whites. The words 'treacherous', 'devious', 'weak' and 'manipulative' are regularly used to describe Smith's contemporaries in various British, American and South African administrations.
:Smith was a man of some personal integrity, but a poor judge of events.
I'd prefer to see biographies and books/articles on Smith cited rather than have wikipedia deem that Smith has "personal courage" "principles (that) cannot be questioned" etc. Homey 17:13, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: :While his personal courage and principles cannot be questioned, Smith was very much a product of the confined society into which he was born. Life revolved around the cricket team, the country club, the whites only school, the RAF and the company of other gentleman farmers. Smith never escaped from or saw beyond this.
:Smith and his fellow white settler politicians stubbornly resisted any meaningful move to black majority rule throughout the 60s and early 70s. When majority rule was eventually forced on Rhodesia from outside it came in the form of an abrupt capitulation to insurgent backed, black political parties. Smith saw this as "a betrayal" at the time, and has never shifted from this view. He still believes that UDI and the Bush War were both morally and tactically defensible. 
:In his autobiography (written in 2001), Smith uses the term "clean cut" about 40 times and "straighforward" about 20 times to describe individual Rhodesian whites. The words 'treacherous', 'devious', 'weak' and 'manipulative' are regularly used to describe Smith's contemporaries in various British, American and South African administrations.
:Smith was a man of some personal integrity, but a poor judge of events.
I'd prefer to see biographies and books/articles on Smith cited rather than have wikipedia deem that Smith has "personal courage" "principles (that) cannot be questioned" etc. Homey 17:13, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smith - the man 

message: Homey writes: this section needs to be balanced - surely someone has something uncomplimentary to say about him
: Well, you cannot fault the I told you so tone to any reply .. However, he is still not worth listening to - he could try to straddle the gap between Black and White, but he chooses not to - he is still the racist. (echo: I told you so ..) Wizzy…☎ 15:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retirement 

message: Great Wilson quote! any idea what Fearless and Tiger referred to ? Wizzy…☎ 10:30, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Fearless/Tiger talks were held between Wilson and Smith in the in 1966 and 1968 on RN warships at Gibraltar. Smith's main perceptions of these talks were (1) the venue was chosen to avoid the talks being held in London where Wilson would have been embarrased by demonstrations of support for Smith by the British public, and (2) Smith was warmly received and assured of support when he dined in the Petty Officers' mess on the Tiger. Smith was offered the most generous possible terms to end UDI and declined those terms almost out of hand. BScar23625 20:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: http://home.wanadoo.nl/rhodesia/tiger.htm
Exaptkiwi. You have inserted the following text in the main article :
QUOTE
Smith feared that Gibbs - acting on orders from London - would 
not reappoint him and his government, and that the positions, and therefore the government, would be given to the Black Nationalists
UNQUOTE
What is your source for this?. Wilson gave his word that majority rule would be phased in over a fixed period of time, and that was an era in which a man's word was his bond.
I do not recall Smithy making any suggestion that Wilson would "do the dirty" on anyone and I cannot find any such claim in Smithy's autobigraphy. Sorry if I am overlooking something obvious. 
If you go to the curious Rhodesian website page specified above, you will find the following text concerning the Fearless talks :
QUOTE
What particularly stuck in the Rhodesian gizzard was a British requirement regarding possible amendments to the entrenched clauses of the Constitution - that if such an amendment were found by the Constitutional Council to be unjustly discriminatory between the races, the Council could refer it to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which would have the final say.
UNQUOTE
The thrust of this was that Wilson wanted an absolutely concrete guarantee that majority rule would be phased in over a fixed period of time and Smith would not concede this.
best wishes.Bob.BScar23625 16:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fearless / Tiger 

message: An anonymous user has added the following :
"His father commited suicide while he was 24."
That is absolute news to me. Can anyone confirm this?. Actually, if it is true, it might explain one or two things. Bob BScar23625 14:55, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: google cannot find it. Wikiwizzy 15:32, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  suicide of father 

message: I just want to say thankyou to those who wrote this article - It's exceptionally well written and (especially for an article bordering on something as controversial as race relations) mostly free from POV. Keep it up! -   Gt 04:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you've done a spectacular job at revealing yourself as a pointless crusading left-winger who's edits are obviously strongly biased. -   Gt 00:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: There is certainly a lesson to be learned from history here. I wasn't there, but I agree with Bob, Ian Smith is still not worth listening to. Wizzy…☎ 09:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Congrats!

message: This article, through recent 'improvements' is becoming even more and more skewed. Could some other editors with Rhodesian knowledge possible contribute? -   Gt 12:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Changes being made to the article in the form of what was presumably fact now being attributed to specific individuals and made out to simply be their own viewpoint. I lack knowledge dealing with Ian Smith, but believe that this is just an attempt to subtly adjust the article's POV - which is why I asked for "other editors with Rhodesian knowledge" to take a look. -   Gt 13:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia articles aren't trials. -   Gt 23:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I said before this before, and excuse me if I seem at all rude - but wikipedia is not a discussion forum. I have no intention or wish to discuss this. -   Gt 09:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I only glanced it at, so I may have missed key additions. For now, I see no immediate problems and plenty of valuable additions, though the depiction of the Fearless/Eagle seems incomplete (the role of the Rhodesian cabinet, for ex.), thereby placing far too emphasis on personality (the Wilson-Smith relationship appears to be correctly depicted, however). Anyway, I'll try to looks at it more closely soon. El_C 12:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: He served with distinction in the Royal Air Force at Pembrey, during which time he lost an eye in battle, and also suffered facial injuries Didn't Smith sustain his injuries when he crashed on take-off in Alexandria?  Sorry - forgot to sign 88.105.130.31 19:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's correct. El_C 08:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RAF Service

message: This article is extremely biased and fails to insert critical instances of racism and biggotry committed by Ian Smith and Robert Mugabe.  I'm extremely disappointed.
I am no fan of Smithy (witness my other comments above) but one cannot just dismiss him as a "racist". I am minded to make comparisons between him and segregationist US politicians Strom Thurmond and George Wallace. Both of these had colourful histories. Thurmond had a black daughter with whom he was on warm terms and Wallace started out in his career as something near to a civil-rights lawyer. At a personal level, just how racist were all these guys?.  
On another matter, I have taken the liberty of removing the UDI document from the main article - where it seemed to be just decorative. It can still be found on the Unilateral Declaration of Independence (Rhodesia) page.
Bob BScar23625 08:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racist? 

message: Guys, I am a little concerned about the minor edit war over the caption on the picture of Smithy "taking aim". As it was me who inserted the picture, perhaps I can decide?. I am uneasy about use of the words "lazy kaffir". Unless Michael or Andrew object, I will remove them in the next few hours. Bob BScar23625 08:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uneasy or not, it changes the nature of the event significantly. If it was true that the waiter was called this, I think it should stay. As such, I'm changing it back, and removing the excusing word "jokingly". --Spudtater 20:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture caption 

message: Chaps. I have taken the liberty of moving discussion items dating from 2005 and earlier to an archive. It is easily accessed and if anyone wants to move anything from there back to the current discussion page, then they should feel free to do so. Bob BScar23625 11:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive of pre 2006 discussion 

message: 216.194.56.12. You have added some fine historical analysis to the article. I refer particularly to the manner in which you have related the life of Ian Smith to the events leading up to the creation of the Irish Free State in 1922. I had not previously perceived the similarities. However, I wonder if this analysis and a few other points you have added might not be better placed in the article on Zimbabwe?. Provided you have no objection, I will relocate them there within the next few hours. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 11:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical analysis 

message: There is no mention of Ian Smith's connection to L. Ron Hubbard, it is mentioned in Hubbard's bio that he went to Rhodesia to hide from media attention and that he floated large sums of money into the Rhodesian economy when it was hit by UN-Sanctions. But there is no mention of this in the Ian Smith article. 00:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientology Connection