Talk:Medical Aid for Palestinians

message: Why are you deleting mention of "Occupied Territories"?  The term Occupied Territory is enclosed in quotation marks because MAP uses the term in its literature. If NGO Monitor is offended and considers MAP partisan because of that, they should not be ashamed to identify the source of the smear campaigns against Palestinian NGOs as an Israeli ambassador. Don't delete Dore Gold's name because readers have a right to know where the accusations of partisanship against humanitarian organizations come from; they come from partisan and extremist Zionists. Alberuni 00:43, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The link is to a POV page that is currently in voting to be turned into a re-direct, and no doubt will be.  Moreover, the includsion if for purely political reasons, as it adds no information to the article itself.  The name and description of the head of NGO monitor are included purely to (in your mind) discredit the organization (please see poisoning the well), and including this kind of information is not commonly done in Wikipedia articles.  The information is relevant in the NGO Monitor article, where it is included, and which can easily be found when people click on the link in this article.  I'm not sure why you judge Dore Gold to be "extremist", but it's not really relevant either. Jayjg 17:36, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: And you still haven't responded to these valid objections; please allow my NPOV edits to remains. Jayjg 02:06, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If you insist on smearing humanitarian organizations then you owe it to the reader to accurately identify in the article who the source of the smear campaign is. Dore Gold is not a neutral observer. You are trying to hide his involvement by citing NGO Monitor, an innocent neutral and objective sounding NGO name. It isn't. It is an extremist Likud mouthpiece. Either include reference to Dore Gold, Israeli Ambassador, as the source of the smear campaigns against all these Palestinian NGOs or delete all reference to NGO Monitor and their smears. Alberuni 02:11, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Your opinions of NGO Monitor are interesting, but it's not Wikipedia's job to assign these kinds of POV labels.  Rather, Wikipedia simply reports on who says what; that is NPOV.  You have no idea who wrote those reports, and in any event the NGO Monitor article certainly provides all the information anyone needs on the subject. Jayjg 02:23, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you say the same thing if someone added critiques from a neo-Nazi or Holocaust Revisionist website to the "Jew" article? Alberuni 03:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: On what basis do you equate NGO Monitor with neo-Nazi or Holocaust Revisionist? Jayjg 03:43, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: What difference does it make what my POV or your POV is on these organizations. "Rather, Wikipedia simply reports on who says what; that is NPOV." Alberuni 03:50, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If you feel the neo-Nazi or Holocaust Revisionist POV needs to be promoted, feel free to give it a try. Jayjg 03:53, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't say I was going to promote neo-nazi POV, I was just pointing out the duplicity of your argument; pushing NGO Monitor's Zionist POV which you agree with while claiming that you are just maintaining Wikipedia NPOV. "Just reporting who says what," indeed. But when it comes to terms that you believe reflect a POV you disagree with (Occupied Palestinian Territories), you are quick to censor and delete. Hypocrite. Alberuni 04:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please restrict Talk: pages to discussions of article content, not discussing your beliefs about other editors, and in particular not name-calling. Jayjg 04:26, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I am discussing article content and the way it is being manipulated by detestable hypocrites. Alberuni 04:43, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  October 2004 

message: Alberuni, you've reverted this article four times in one day, which is against Wikipedia policy.  How many more will you do? Jayjg 17:47, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How many times do you and your turtle intend to censor out relevant information?Alberuni 18:07, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a turtle, though I do have a small fish-tank.  The information doesn't belong, reasons given above. And regardless, please stop deliberately breaking Wikipedia rules. Jayjg 18:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  4 reverts in one day 

message: 5 reverts in under an hour, that must be a record for you, Alberuni.  By the way, the material on Medical Aid for Palestinians is relevant because this is the article on Medical Aid for Palestinians. I'm surprised you didn't understand that. Jayjg 06:58, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you should really stop violating the rules and ignoring Talk. I've explained it to you several times on several pages. --Alberuni 07:02, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: So you are fully aware that you reverted 5 times in less than an hour, even after being warned about similar behaviour earlier on this Talk: page? Jayjg 07:17, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not been able to find that rule written down except in notes from you. Could you point me to the policy? --Alberuni 01:21, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Wikipedia:Three revert rule Jayjg 03:40, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow, 5 reverts in under an hour! 

message: Please review Wikipedia:NPOV. "But it's not enough, to express the Wikipedia nonbias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. (It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.)" I believe that including reference to Ambassador Dore Gold as a prominent representative of NGO Monitor is important to maintaining NPOV. Furthermore, I noted that on the NGO Monitor page you deleted reference to him as an Israeli ambassador even though that is his title (like Dr. or Mr.) and it is featured on the first line of his biography. You shouldn't be ashamed to admit the source of these smears against Palestinian humanitarian organizations. --Alberuni 01:19, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The article doesn't list Dore Gold's opinions, it lists the opinions of NGO Monitor.  NGO monitor is an organization with a number of employees, Gold is merely the publisher.  As such, the opinions themselves are undoubtedly the work of the actual workers in the organization, and not Gold.  Regarding NGO monitor, no reference has been deleted to Gold as the former ambassador to the U.N.; the wording, as given was deliberately misleading, since it made it appear that Gold was currently acting in the role of Israeli ambassador.  Indeed, the wording in this article is also deliberately misleading in the exact same way, in another attempt to poison the well, by making it appear that Gold himself is writing these opinions in the capacity of Israel ambassador, when, in fact, he no longer serves in that capacity, nor does he work for the Israeli government, nor is he authoring these opinions. Jayjg 03:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to have written the above tract without reading my comment so I will repeat myself. Dore Gold is a prominent leader, publisher and spokesperson for NGO Monitor and Wikipedia NPOV policy recommends that "It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. (It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view)." Dore Gold fits that description (and we haven't even begun to discuss the reasons why NGO Monitor may hold views hostile to human rights organizations). Read this very carefully; The title of "Ambassador" is a lifelong title and it is retained even when the ambassador is no longer employed as an ambassador. It is the title of his biographic web page and is in the first line of his biographic sketch. "Ambassador Dore Gold is President of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs." Ambassador Dore Gold --Alberuni 03:28, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Dore Gold is not NGO Monitor's spokesman, he is its publisher, and the article does make clear who holds the views; it is, in fact, NGO Monitor.  In other words, when you say "It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view" you're right, and NGO Monitor is the representative of that view.  NGO Monitor is not Dore Gold, and Dore Gold is not NGO Monitor.  When quoting Al Mezan's views, for example, one does not quote Kammal Al Sharafi.  When quoting Human Rights Watch's views, one does not quote Kenneth Roth.  If Dore Gold had made any of the statements directly, then it might be reasonable to say "According to Dore Gold, publisher of NGO Monitor, ..."  However, you are not quoting Gold at all, nor can you, since Gold is not saying these things.  Rather, you simply mention his name, deceptively describing him as the "Israeli Ambassador", not even as the "former Israeli Ambassador", which is what he is.  While Ambassador is an honorific title which may remain with a person for life, describing someone as Israeli Ambassador is an attempt to confuse the reader into believing he is an active Ambassador, working for the Israeli government, when he is neither.  You have clearly stated yourself that the only reason for mentioning Gold's name is to (in your eyes) discredit NGO Monitor; this is, in fact, poisoning the well.  Poisoning the well is a preemptive logical fallacy where unfavourable information about someone (or something) is presented to an audience, with the intent of discrediting everything said by that person (or group) beforehand; that is exactly what you are attempting to do by mentioning his name, as you yourself have made clear. Jayjg 03:51, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice try. Dore Gold is the publisher of NGO Monitor and President of its parent organization. You are being exceedingly deceptive by trying to claim that Dore Gold does not represent a prominent spokesperson for NGO Monitor. That would be like saying the publisher of Hustler is not responsible for its content. Please, the BS is getting thick, even for you. You again mischaracterize my statements. I never wrote that my intent was to discredit NGO Monitor by pointing out it is published by Dore Gold. (You are projecting your intent of concealing Dore Gold's relationship in order to present NGO Monitor as a neutral source). What I wrote was, "If you insist on smearing humanitarian organizations then you owe it to the reader to accurately identify in the article who the source of the smear campaign is." That's a completely different goal. You are arguing fallaciously once again, creating a straw man argument. Your edits have really gone off the edge this time. There is nothing wrong with naming Dore Gold and his title. What have you got to hide? --Alberuni 04:23, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, Gold is the publisher, not the spokesman; these are different roles.  If you can find quotes of him speaking for NGO Monitor on the subject of Medical Aid for Palestinians then it would be reasonable to provide those specific quotes here.  And your very first response on the page states Don't delete Dore Gold's name because readers have a right to know where the accusations of partisanship against humanitarian organizations come from; they come from partisan and extremist Zionists. - your motivation here is clearly poisoning the well, which is "a preemptive logical fallacy where unfavourable information about someone (or something) is presented to an audience, with the intent of discrediting everything said by that person (or group) beforehand". Jayjg 19:21, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It must give you great satisfaction to accuse others of poisoning the well considering that you have repeated the accusation ad nauseum and that the phrase is rooted etymologically in medieval accusations against Jews.  Your claim is exceedingly lame. You are trying to argue that the publisher of NGO Monitor and president of its parent organization is not a prominent representative of the view of NGO Monitor? Who is a more prominent representative of the views published in NGO Monitor than the publisher? My reasons for wanting to expose this connection are not related to "poisoning the well" but are related to NPOV policy of describing the background to the accusations, that they are being perpetrated by politically very partisan right-wing Zionists, not exactly B'Tselem Israelis making these accusations. That is entirely consistent with the NPOV policy that I have quoted many times above and you have studiously ignored. Furthermore, how is it poisoning the well if there is nothing to hide? It is a fact that Dore Gold publishes these accusations. readers should know the source. What are you trying to hide? I think my position is clear and proper. I don't expect you to ever agree or understand because you are not reasonable. I make an effort to overcome my POV to see things your way but I do not see the same good faith effort from you.--Alberuni 19:41, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I use the phrase "poisoning the well" because it is entirely apt.  NPOV is not about naming the publishers of reports so readers can dismiss them as coming from "partisan and extremist Zionists"; rather, it is about quoting different views on a subject, and quoting the sources.  The sources in this case are, on the one hand, Medical Aid for Palestinians, and on the other hand, NGO Monitor.  If people want to know more about NGO Monitor they can click on the convenient link provided right in the text.  And if they want to know more about Dore Gold, they can click on the convenient link in the NGO Monitor page. Nothing is hidden, and relevant material is found on relevant pages. That is how Wikipedia works, and I think you will find it is pretty standard in all articles.  And I have tried to understand your POV; it's not hard, you've stated it explicitly.  You want people to know that they shouldn't take NGO Monitor's criticisms seriously, because its publisher is a "very partisan" "right-wing" "extremist Zionist", not a "reputable" Israeli like those running B'Tselem. However, this is the very essence of POV, an attempt to (in your view) smear NGO Monitor in order to guide the reader to draw the "correct" conclusions.  Jayjg 20:21, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Your hypocrisy is outstanding. You push your deceptive POV behind a front organization run by a Likud mouthpiece and claim you are doing it in the name of NPOV! I work for full disclosure and an NPOV description that clearly shows who is behind this NGO Monitor group as explicitly recommended in Wikipedia:NPOV and you claim it is "poisoning the well" and "the very essence of POV". Your unbelievable contorted manipulation is typical hasbara. Why would it be poisoning the well for people to know that Dore Gold publishes NGO Monitor? Why would they dismiss it? You don't dismiss it. You think it is the highest source of objective truth (or the best defense of Israel using deceit and manipulation, whatever, you love it). So what's the problem with putting more information in the article? Why censor out this important fact? Why are you ashamed of Dore Gold, publisher of NGO Monitor? Because everyone knows he has an ax to grind. He, like you, doesn't care about palestinian human rights. He, like you, cares only about Jews and Israel and if that means subverting human rights groups that defend Palestinians from Israeli atrocities, so be it. What contemptible sleazy Nazis. No wonder Zionists are universally despised. --Alberuni 00:55, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You have proved my point yet again; you want to keep the name Dore Gold front and center, even though this is not the way other NGO groups are referred to on Wikipedia, solely in order to let all the readers know that you belive NGO monitor is a "front organization run by a Likud mouthpiece", so that the readers will immediately dismiss it; poisoning the well par excellence. Regardless, it's not about my feelings, and nothing is being hidden; the NGO Monitor link clearly states who the President of the organization is, and the Dore Gold link there gives a good summary of Dore Gold's C.V. Jayjg 02:20, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please review Wikipedia:NPOV once again. "But it's not enough, to express the Wikipedia nonbias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. (It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.)" I guess Wikipedia:NPOV policy feels like "poisoning the well" to you because you are protecting the true well-poisoners. Jew_Watch contains a long section about the authorship of the site. I guess we should delete that as "poisoning the well" too, as you deleted Dore Gold links from NGO Monitor? --Alberuni 04:46, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Mentioning Dore Gold is relevant because many people knows about him but not of NGO Monitor. Before reading up on this subject, I didn't know who Dore Gold or NGO Monitor was. However, since I have read this , it would have been much easier for me to discredit the criticism if Dore Gold's name was mentioned. Palestine-info 12:15, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: You call it poisoning the well because you don't like people coming to their decisions based on the character of the accuser. Wikipedia:NPOV encourages identification of accusers and POV pushers so that readers can come to that decision on their own. There may be readers with demented Zionist outlook who think Dore Gold is great. It's not poisoning the well just because intelligent readers can form an opinion about the motivation of creatures like Dore Gold. --Alberuni 17:24, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that why Wikipedia encourages such identifications?  Please highlight the section you think states that. Jayjg 17:27, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Time for remedial reading comprehension for Jayjg. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. (It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.)"--Alberuni 17:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Stating that Gold is the publisher does not give any "facts about the reasons behind the views", and NGO Monitor is not Gold.  I've explained this to you many times already. Jayjg 17:53, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it does. Silly boy. Xed 17:55, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Medical Aid for Palestinians describes itself as "non-political" and "non-partisan" but this claim is disputed by the NGO Monitor, (published by former Israeli Ambassador to the UN Dore Gold) due to Medical Aid for Palestinians' alleged involvement "in advocacy on behalf of the Palestinians instead of providing medical care and aid to those in need."
Also realize that allegations against humanitarian relief organisations from Israel should be taken with a grain of salt. Remember the time when Israel claimed that PRCS was shipping Qassam rockets in their ambulances? It almost makes you smile but then you realize that some people actually buy that stuff... So I'm very skeptical to information that comes from the Israeli government. And NGO Monitor seem to have quite a few ties to that government. Knowing that, I can mentally place the allegation "in advocacy on behalf of the Palestinians instead of providing medical care and aid to those in need" in the bullshit cathegory of my brain. If it was Amnesty or any other organisation with an ounce of credibility to their name the situation would be different. It has nothing to do with poisoning the well. But it has everything to do with some bigots (Dori Gold) trying to hide behind a fancy name (NGO Monitor) and to legitimze their propaganda. I don't like that. Palestine-info 18:30, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: What do statements by the Israeli government about Qassam rockets have to do with the reports by NGO Monitor about NGOs? And again, your statement confirms that you are trying to poison the well. Jayjg 02:05, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Actually, your edits confirm that, for propaganda purposes, you are trying to promote a false view of Dore Gold as a current Israeli Ambassador, when in fact he has not served in that role in years. Jayjg 14:50, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The difference between "poisoning the well" and NPOV 

message: :"Ambassador Dore Gold is President of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. He was the eleventh Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations (1997-1999)."
This is about like referring to Carter as President Jimmy Carter. He's not the current president of the United States, but a lot of people keep using his old title. 
:: That's actually correct, though.  Once you're a U.S. president, your official title is ALWAYS "President So-and-So".  Saying "Ex-President So-and-So" is a big faux pas.  But I don't know if its true for other positions or countries. See also President of the United States, "After a president of the U.S. leaves office, the title "President" continues to be applied to that person the rest of his or her life.".  But this is a semi-unique element of the U.S. presidency.  Terrapin 21:22, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Googling "former President Jimmy Carter" gets 45,000 hits. "former President Carter" gets 12,800. "Jimmy Carter, former President" gets 1,680 hits. "ex-President Jimmy Carter" gets 1,720. "ex-president Carter" gets another 1,180.  As for "former ambassador", that gets 94,600 hits. Jayjg 20:54, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: No, there's no question about that.  However, stating that he is an "Israeli Ambassador" gives the false impression that he is still serving in that role. Jayjg 20:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's standard respect among English speaking people to continue applying the title even after the person leaves the post. This has been explained to Jayjg many times but he chooses to feign ignorance. --Alberuni 21:54, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Where is that rule written?  Even the JCPA website has many references to him as "former ambassador" Jayjg 22:09, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Dore Gold

message: Just a note that I have no opinion on this dispute (at the moment, anyway); I only reverted to fix an error caused by database lag. —No-One Jones (m) 21:33, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Mirv's note

message: That's five reverts for Alberuni in one day, again. Jayjg 21:58, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been a great deal of zionist vandalism on this page today for some reason. Did you post it on your User page again? --Alberuni 22:04, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: What an odd comment; I've never posted this page on my user page.  Bizarre! Jayjg 22:10, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Really? What's this?  --Alberuni 22:46, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, you mean post a link to it, not the actual page itself.  No, but since it is being ruthlessly POVd again, it is probably a good idea. Jayjg 22:52, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Disingenuous Jayjg strikes again. --Alberuni 22:57, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  5 reverts for Alberuni in one day 

message: NGO Monitor criticisms belong in an article about NGO monitor, not in an article about Medial Aid for Palestinians.  Please keep the articles on topic.  Jayjg  | (Talk)</sup> 23:27, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NGO Monitor criticisms 

message: The fact that MAP describes itself this way is not a significant fact about the organization itself, and certainly does not belong in the first sentence.  The only reason it is being included so prominently is because NGO Monitor says it is not, in order to direct the mind of the reader.  The first sentences should be used to describe what is important about the organization, and try to position the reader for conflicts described later. Jayjg  | (Talk) 15:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is not about which organizations view is "more important"; the issue is that "what are the important characteristics of MAP", and about writing in a NPOV way.  Taking sides is simply POV. Jayjg  | (Talk) 21:47, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Why do you think so? Jayjg  | (Talk) 15:29, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That comes down pretty far in the list of it's claims, not front and center, as you have placed it in the article.  You've obviously placed it at the very start of the article to counteract later criticisms, which is hardly NPOV.  Follow MAP's lead, and put the more important stuff first. Jayjg  | (Talk) 21:50, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Important to you, perhaps, so you can try to undermine the cricism later in the page.  However, they themselves list it quite far down on their own self-description; just about at the point it is described in this article.  Their POV is well represented here, and you are distorting this article to promote bias. Jayjg  | (Talk) 15:28, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Here is the Guidestar listing:
Activities  Additional information provided by charity
Medical Aid for Palestinians achieves its aims via a programme of health projects, based in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Lebanon and Palestinian refugee camps in the Middle East.
Services Additional information provided by charity
Makes grants to organisations
Provides human resources
Provides advocacy/advice/information
clearly, advocacy is a core mission of the group.Historicist (talk) 13:22, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "non-political, non-partisan" 

message: Jeez, being called political and partisan by NGO Monitor is like being called racist by the KKK. Given NGO Monitor's controversial views and history I'd say including that material is highly inappropriate. -- 86.17.211.191 (talk) 17:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: This seems another NGO caught up indirectly in the so far unfounded (per EU and others) allegations of NGO monitor against 6 NGOs outlawed by Israeli authorities. The NGO is properly registered up to date charity in consultative status for long at UN and seems quite well known so fixing up this article should not prove difficult. See https://charityandsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/The-Alarming-Rise-of-Lawfare-to-Suppress-Civil-Society.pdf pp 60-61 Selfstudier (talk) 11:48, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  NGO 

message: Who did what, and when? Could someone look into this and make it clearer, please. 
The last sentence in the section ‘Aim and history’ refers vaguely to ‘its founder's advocacy involving a White Supremacist video by David Duke’. 
The two links do not work for me in the UK (footnotes 6 and 7). 
The Wikipedia entry on ’Ang Swee Chai’ explains a little more. In or before 2014, ‘Ang had forwarded a video’ featuring David Duke. It does not say when, looking at the Telegraph article (footnote 11). 
May I suggest that we (1) change the wording to say ‘the founder, Ang Swee Chai, forwarded a video’ instead of ‘advocacy involving’, and (2) add a footnote for the Telegraph article, in the ‘Medical Aid for Palestinians’ entry, and (3) if possible, find out in what year she forwarded the video. keenuck (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You're correct - there is no evidence of "advocacy".  I have added an archive link to the reference and updated the paragraph to reflect the source better. ResonantDistortion 00:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done, 'RD'. Much improved. keenuck (talk) 21:02, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too vague: ‘advocacy involving’