Talk:Vale of Glamorgan

message: So... I grew up in the Vale and went to a Welsh primary school there and never heard this phrase once.  It was always "Bro Morgannwg".  A quick Google check concurs: 260,000 approximate hits for "bro" versus 84 for "dyffryn".  I've changed the Welsh translation based on this. Vashti 11:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just chill. Safe, innit bro. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 17:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Dyffryn Morgannwg

message: I removed the 'league table' of school results because Estyn doesn't inspect schools annually, so the exam results cited won't necessarily be directly comparable. People may be aware that since 2001, the Assembly Government hasn't published individual school performance information. Information on individual schools is still available in prospectuses and governors’ annual reports, but adding them all together to produce a local league table may violate WP:SYNTH. Pondle (talk) 23:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  School league tables 

message: I rather think that the 'Vale of Glamorgan' is primarily a geographical district of Wales and only secondarily a current local government administrative unit. We should alter the lede to reflect that. cheers Geopersona (talk) 16:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you're basing this on. There's no mention of a geographical feature called the Vale of Glamorgan in this article. If such a thing exists, it would deserve a separate article, but I would think the political county borough would be the primary topic. Sionk (talk) 21:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The name very much predates the modern administrative unit - local government perhaps adopted the name for convenience in 1974 as it was already well established. Plenty of references for it . .eg i) Ordnance Survey's 'Physical Map of Gt Britain' sheet 2, published in 1957, ii) Andrew Goudie 'The Landforms of England and Wales' published 1990 in which the V of G is described (by this Prof of Geography at Oxford) as a generally lowlying area stretching between the River Kenfig (in the west) and the Rhymney (in the east). Its northern boundary is formed by the south-facing scarp of hard Pennant Sandstone. As https://maps.nls.uk/view/91548850 shows the Vale of Glamorgan was not any form of administrative unit in the 1950s. The then Institute of Geological Sciences (now British Geological Survey) published the 3rd edition of the regional geological memoir to South Wales in 1970 in which they make multiple references to the Vale of Glamorgan as a geographical area and note a variety of geological influences on it. So it very much 'is a thing'. I think it's fair to observe that one might expect the focus of an article with the present title to be on the geographical feature just as with say the Vale of York or the Vale of Clwyd whilst that for the authority ought perhaps to be 'Vale of Glamorgan County Borough' as with for example pages dealing with Wrexham or Conwy (town v modern county borough in both cases) We might note that the Vale of Glamorgan unitary authority area/principal area actually extends over a more restricted area than the traditional Vale of Glamorgan. cheers Geopersona (talk) 11:43, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: We can definitely agree that the Vale of Glamorgan wasn't a political unit of any description until 1974. If it has some sort of alternative pre-1970s geological definition, this is certainly not widely known or recognised. The political Vale of Glamorgan Borough was the bit left of South Glamorgan that wasn't in Cardiff County Borough. It's a bizarre concept to me, that Cardiff lies in this geological Vale of Glamorgan, an idea I've never come across. My 1954 1-inch to the mile map of the area between Bridgend and Newport doesn't mention the Vale of Glamorgan anywhere. And I suppose 'history' is written based on political boundaries - my "Glamorgan and Gwent - A  Guide to Ancient and Historic Wales" makes no mention of an established 'Vale of Glamorgan' either. All that being said, if it has a geological identity prior to 1974, I've nothing against an article being created about it - there just doen't seem a tremendous amount you could say about it. Sionk (talk) 21:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say primarily 'geographical' rather than 'geological' - just that one or two of the sources refer to the geology behind that geography. As to it not being named on the 50's 1" map - yes, entirely to be expected - the OS maps named rather fewer such areas in the past than they do nowadays. But the modern 50K and the modern 25K maps both label the geographical feature, in addition to naming the administrative entity.Geopersona (talk) 21:03, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: If there were another article, the county borough should still be the primary topic, just like Gwynedd is over the older kingdom, and Derbyshire Dales, Amber Valley, Ribble Valley and Test Valley are (rather than redirects to the river), so any split off should be at Vale of Glamorgan (valley) or Vale of Glamorgan (geology), especially as it is a rarely used term especially in the modern day AFAIAA. Settlements of Wrexham and Conwy are much more known and defined than geological VoG. If you search "Vale of Glamorgan" you're more likely to have the county borough than if you were to search "Wrexham" or "Conwy". Although there wouldn't be any point for an article if there isn't a lot of information on it? May be best just under a "name" section here? DankJae 16:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

text: I'd certainly not advocate an article by the name of Vale of Glamorgan (valley) as the Vale of Glamorgan is not a valley but rather the name that has attached for centuries to the land with relatively low relief between the dissected uplands of the South Wales Coalfield and the Bristol Channel to the south and which formed a substantial part of the old county of Glamorgan. Both Bing maps and the OS label the geographical area as such. Outside of formal references to the local authority, it's true that 'Vale of Glamorgan' is not a term that often encountered but 'The Vale' is pretty commonly heard, and is a shortening of that longer name, used in a geographical sense and inevitably since there is now a principal area of that name, in an administrative sense too. I don't think anyone is advocating for a Vale of Glamorgan (geology) article either though a description of the geology of the area would be a suitable section for an article on the geographical feature or perhaps that part of the old county perhaps. thanks Geopersona (talk) 19:47, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't think of a suitable disambiguator tag so just came up with what I first thought of, interpreting "Vale" literally, and you mentioned geology, but didn't like either. Maybe "plain"?  Yes, "The Vale" can also refer to the county borough, (as by the cb council) so any source needs clarification. DankJae 21:19, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood. I found another reference to the Vale of Glamorgan in my copy of 'Geology Explained in South Wales' (T.R. Owen, David & Charles, Newton Abbot) in which an entire chapter is devoted to this physiographical region. The book's publication predates the local government reorganisation of 1974 so makes no reference to the then-future administrative district. I'd think reference to the name being the traditional one for this lowland tract - plain, call it what we will - before being adopted in '74 for the administrative entity which is broadly, but not wholly, coincident with it, would be appropriate. But there's no hurry. cheers Geopersona (talk) 05:44, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe you're then arguing for WP:PT2, long-term significance, which I can understand. I just find that the original Vale has become so rarely used that it cannot be the primary, and most readers will overwhelmingly look for the modern county borough (WP:PT1). That the original vale hasn't had an article for so long kinda represents that. So still believe that the cb should remain at this title, but fully open to any "VoG (plain/lowland tract)" article if you believe so. DankJae 11:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm surprised there hasn't been something about this added under "Geography" on this article yet. Sionk (talk) 13:49, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

text: The Glamorgan volume of The Buildings of Wales, published a year before the county borough was created, has the following in its introduction (p. 19):  Ham II (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: To alert readers to the fact that VofG has a meaning outside of the administrative definitions of the last half-century, I've added a couple of sentences in the Geography section based on Goudie's description of the traditional area. Geopersona (talk) 04:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the Vale?