Talk:Rastafari

message: Main question: Should this paragraph (here) about the Order of Primus Saint Croix, and an image of the Order's logo, be added to the "Mansions of Rastafari" sub-section of this article? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:59, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment: Should the Article Include a Paragraph on the Order of Primus Saint Croix? 

message: *No: This is a Featured Article, so we must be very cautious about whether additions represent an actual improvement; this paragraph and its accompanying picture do not improve the article. The "Mansions of Rastafari" sub-section lists the major Rastafari groups (called "Mansions") as are discussed in WP:Reliable Sources, principally the writings of academic specialists on Rastafari. None of these academic specialists write about the Order of Primus Saint Croix. (Google Scholar does not bring up any sources that discuss the group itself). Simply put, the Order does not meet Wikipedia's criteria for WP:Notability. Perhaps it will in future, but at present it remains a small, fairly new, and uninfluential sect within the broader Rastafari movement, one that has not attracted attention from the writers of secondary or tertiary sources. The proposed paragraph has been written by a member of the Order, thus representing WP:Advocacy. It relies heavily on WP:Primary sources written and published by the Order itself. Including such a lengthy paragraph about this group, one that is longer than those of any other Rasta group, is wholly WP:Undue given that the group is ignored by secondary/tertiary literature.  If we were to include a paragraph on this group, we would have to include paragraphs on every Rasta group out there—there are probably hundreds—and the article already slightly exceeds the recommended length for articles at Wikipedia. In all, this addition is unnecessary, contrary to Wikipedia's policies on what to include, and would undermine the article's FA status. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Votes

message: Jah 161.29.151.83 (talk) 08:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nah rastafari 

message: In the section "Jah and Jesus of Nazareth" it says, "The term "Jah" is a shortened version of "Jehovah", the name of God in English translations of the Old Testament."  
In Psalm 68:4 KJV the term "JAH" is given as the actual name of the God: "Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him." 
This piece of scripture is worth noting and of significant importance for three reasons: 1.) It is the only time God is referred to as "JAH" in the KJV Bible, 2.) the Psalms of David are a scriptural pillar of Rastafari beliefs, 3.) the scripture instructs the reader to 'sing praises to JAH' (music praising JAH is a central theme of Rastafari culture). 2601:804:380:1220:E963:EF73:B7DC:C6C (talk) 15:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  JAH in Psalm 68:4 

message: Is there any reason it's not mentioned prominently in the article that it's an Abrahamic faith? Based on my like 10 minutes total of reading (take me with a grain of salt) isn't it pretty roundly considered to be so by religious scholars? toobigtokale (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We would need WP:Reliable Sources to make such a claim in the article. We could probably find an RS somewhere that describes it as such, but it's certainly not a common claim in the specialist literature on Rastafari, which is extensively cited in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:38, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone through Google Scholar and found some recent sources that would support the claim that Rastafari is Abrahamic. I have both introduced those into the main body of the article and amended the opening sentence so that it includes the identification of Rastafari as an Abrahamic tradition. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:21, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abrahamic faith in lead? 

message: Thanks. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 06:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The citations are cited in the article, should you wish to look them up. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the Abrahamic faith claim is likely to be further challenged in the future; possibly merits refs in the lead next to that claim per WP:LEAD. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 06:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Please provide sources that say it is not an abrahamic religion. Simonm223 (talk) 12:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Um? Because I’ve never seen a Rastafarian person call themselves a part of Abrahamic religions. They don’t consider themselves that at all. And don’t be rude to me? SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: And plus there wasn’t any citations next to the Abrahamic religion claim so that’s why I asked. I’m not scrolling all the way down to see some obscure claim, I’d like it to be provided in the first sentence. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: I am not being rude. But this is how Wikipedia works. We use reliable (secondary) sources. Which is why I asked you to please show me reliable sources that categorize Rastafarianism as being non-Abrahamic. Your personal interaction with members of this faith is irrelevant to article content as it would constitute original research which we do not use. Simonm223 (talk) 14:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The only reason I asked for a source because it doesn’t provide a source next to the Abrahamic religion claim, which is why I questioned it. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: And plus there wasn’t any citations next to the Abrahamic religion claim so that’s why I asked. I’m not scrolling all the way down to see some obscure claim, I’d like it to be provided in the first sentence. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: There are actually two citations for the statement that the religion is Abrahamic. They are in the body because we generally exclude over-citation from the lede. This is a WP:MOS thing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay I’ll check them out. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Specifically please see MOS:LEAD  (emphasis mine). Simonm223 (talk) 14:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Although restating to be clear, per MOS:LEADCITE, . This claim has been challenged, so we should now put the refs next to the claim in the lead. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 15:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you're misinterpreting that. The verifiability has not been challenged nor is it likely to be. The sources in the body are, in fact, high quality. If you insist on putting the citations in the lede I won't personally stand in your way. But others might. And If you try to delete from the lede as uncited I will revert. Simonm223 (talk) 15:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not the other user, I'm actually toobigtokale from above, who suggested adding the Abrahamic faith info in the first place. I don't think I'm misinterpreting that quote; think of the purpose behind the policy. We're not just catering to people who'd bother to dig through the body to find the refs, we're catering to the 99% of people who leave articles within 1 minute because they basically only read the lead. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, be my guest to move those two refs up into the lede if you wish. Simonm223 (talk) 16:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Please watch the tone; it's bordered on snippy and condescending several times in this thread. Please be more mindful of this in future. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 16:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly my point though. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 23:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

text: I don’t agree that the  verifiability will never be challenged. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 23:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can you give sources that Rastafari is an Abrahamic religion?