Talk:Winged football helmet

message: This article really needs a picture.  I'll see if I have a free use pic at home but I doubt it.  Dachande 13:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a replica, so I guess I will upload a picture of it.  Happy New Year!! Malinaccier (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Winged Helmet

message: What a stupid idea for an article.  Gee, maybe we should have an article on helmets with a stripe down the middle or helmets with single letter logos, only we'll call them Single striped helmet and Letter logoed helmet, so they sound important.  
I came here from the link over at Michigan Wolverines football, where, for god's sake, this is mentioned in the lead paragraph as one of the things that Michigan football is known for. What a joke. 98.82.196.213 (talk) 23:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ridiculous article 

message: There's a discussion on several other pages about what would be a valid source. Imacericg suggested the following
* A) Constantine S. Demos and Steven S. Demos, M.D., The Tradition Continues: Spartan Football (Muskegon: Michigan State University Football Players Association, 2008) 515.
* B) Michigan State Football: They Are Spartans (Arcadia Publishing (January 11, 2004)
* C) Bentley Historical Library: University of Michigan Athletics History. “University of Michigan Football: Michigan’s Winged Helmet.” The Regents of the University of Michigan. Apr. 2006, 26 Mar. 2010
* D) http://www.uniwatchblog.com/2010/12/29/winging-it-helmet-history-reconsidered/
* E) http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/110113_bulwark_football_helmets
* F) MSU Archives: http://www.flickr.com/photos/msuarchives/4524022374/in/set-72157623632171779/
Spartanjerseys.com was also discussed, but I think it's agreed that it is clearly not an RS. Of course, we can use the criteria in Wikipedia's  Reliable Sources guideline to evaluate them, which can be summarized, Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Also, there are a few other issues involved  NPOV, etc.
I guess the first question is, where do any of these sources state that Michigan State used a Winged helmet in 1933? None have been cited in the article, as far as I know.
Also, I don't think A, B, or D meet the RS standard. C may, E maybe, and F might if it's actually the product of a scholarly institution, not someone's personal photo stream. (why is it on Flickr and not at msu.edu)?
guanxi (talk) 23:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, an RS! It doesn't say M. State used it before Princeton, it just says, Michigan State had adopted its version of a "winged helmet" several years earlier. Earlier than what? At that point the article is talking about U. of Mich so that's all we know they are referring to. Also, I integrated it with the history; the whole history does not belong in the Intro. guanxi (talk) 06:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

text: It's not good. Your publicly avowed intent is to promote Michigan State over the University of Michigan by spreading your version of the history of the helmet. It's reasonable to assume that's why you made that change. Please stop editing this article; Wikipedia is not a platform for your crusade. Feel free to edit the millions of unrelated Wikipedia articles. The reason for the helmet's notability, which is its use by U. of Mich, belongs in the intro. guanxi (talk) 17:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Valid sources and Michigan State 

message: I just removed a sentence in the article describing the "disputed history" of the winged helmet which cited to a posting at spartanjerseys.com as support for a Michigan State "claim" to have invented the helmet.  The spartanjerseys.com article didn't really say that (though its headline did), but instead just offered up a few photos of helmets with sort-of wings that were said to predate Crisler's 1935 invention.  (In fact the posting seemed to credit Ohio State, not MSU, with the first use of the helmet.)  While there are plain similarities to the modern Princeton / Michigan helmets, they are also quite different and the argument that these earlier versions in fact represent the "invention" of the thing is really kind of metaphysical.   In short, the cited posting does not say what this article says it does, and in any case, spartanjerseys.com is not a reliable source.  I left in the remainder of the text that cites to the ESPN history, despite lacking access to that material, because I am not in a position to verify or dispute it.  If someone can come up with a reliable source that describes an actual dispute over the helmet's history, or an actual claim by MSU or OSU or any other school to have invented the helmet, the material should be re-entered.   I wasn't able after a brief round with Google to find anything.  JohnInDC (talk) 14:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  MSU "claim" to winged helmet 

message: But did Yale have what looked like a winged helmet long before the others? See here. Cake (talk) 01:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: I know it's just a trading card