Talk:Major-General's Song

message: I've tried, but I cannot figure out what relevance the Reboot link has- the end lyrics don't strike me as a parody of the song at all. --maru  (talk) contribs 00:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The tune is the same, the lyrics don't try to match at all though. --Falcorian | Talk 00:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irrelevant external link 

message: Wasn't the song supposed to be about Garnet Wolseley? m.e. 10:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, he is often thought to be the "model" for the Major-General, although other figures have been suggested. Marc Shepherd 11:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garnet Wolseley? 

message: Please read Help:Moving a page on how to move pages properly. Tim! 21:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  moving 

message: There is some repetition between the References section and the "External links" section.  What's the WP: policy on how to correct this?  --Ssilvers 01:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've resolved it by renaming a heading. Marc Shepherd 01:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repetition 

message: I don't think this is the correct article to place the entire lyrics of Parodies. If we did so, it would become far too clutered.  Any opinions? --Falcorian (talk) 01:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree heartily.  We can't add in all the lyrics to all these parodies.   Parodies that are online can be linked.  Otherwise, it is enough, I think to say what the topic of the parody is (if the title doesn't say it all).  I already removed the parody lyrics once, and the editor replaced them.  I request that they be removed.  -- Ssilvers 01:41, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not only that, but most parodies are probably in copyright. Adam Cuerden talk 12:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A good point, I'll remove them... Unless they already have been. ;-) Missed it on my watch list. --Falcorian (talk) 20:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with the copyright observation. However, 'becoming too cluttered' is no better a rationale that having 'too much information'- surely Wikipedia's mandate. We should act as architects of information, not slash-and-burn datacops. --216.239.122.102 (talk) 11:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Parodies shouldn't be the focus of this article anyway.  If anything, the parodies have taken over the article and the less notable ones could be weeded out.  -- Ssilvers 16:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lyrics of parodies 

message: Wikipedia isn't a compendium of links to every page/satire out there. I find many of the links irrelevant. As per WP:NOT#REPOSITORY and WP:NOT#DIR, I have removed the following from the article. I urge anyone hoping to add links to the section to discuss it first if the targets are similar. In particular, I think ReBoot was already discussed in the article and any links can be inserted there, if at all.
*Synopsis of ReBoot episode 39, "End Prog", with lyrics to the Recap Song
*Parody: "I swear this is the last time I'll go boating with Odysseus"
*Parody: "I am the very model of a heroine barbarian"
*Parody: "I am the very model of a modern Unitarian"
*Parody: "I am the very model of a modern sadomasochist"
*Parody: "I am the very model of a modern labour minister"
*Parody: "I am the very model of a Usenet individual"
*Parody: Several Harry Potter Filks
*Parody: The Pointy Haired Manager's Song
*Parody: "I am the very model of the student Theological
*Parody:  "I Am the Very Model of a Modern Libertarian"
*Parody: "I've built a Better Model Than the One at Data General"
*"I am the very model of a medieval Anglian", another parody, sung by King Théoden of Rohan.
*Parody: "I Am the Very Model of a Blogging Evangelical"               
*Parody: "I am the very model of a popular YouTube auteur"
*Parody: "The Uncyclopedian's Song"
*Wikipedia related parodies: RfA Candidate's Song Wikipedia Editor's Song, Web Encyclopedia Song
*Parody: "I am the very model of a Usenet personality", by Tom Holt
*Parody: "He was the very model of a neighborhood podiatrist", by Calvin Trillin  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:282:8102:44B0:511F:C5FB:E0B2:73F9 (talk) 20:36, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for trimming this list!!  I agree that the Anamanicas example is notable, and that your choices for what to keep were the best.  I have, however, resored one notable example, the widely copied and destributed Usenet parody.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 16:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I again rm this link, "I am the very model of a modern libertarian" as it promotes one author and one political POV. Appears to have been replaced after the removal listed above. (Attention, admins?) I agree with keeping the link to the Amiright gallery, as it contains scores (no pun intended) of parodies by many different authors with many different topics and POV. Incidentally, isn't it self-defeating to rm a link, then copy here on the talk page exactly the link that was removed? Authors who are trying to promote their own work are still achieving this, if only on the talk page. Hence, I cited the name of the parody removed, but not the whole link. Perhaps the above list of links removed should be edited thusly? Just a thought... Unimaginative Username 20:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proliferation of links; most removed

message: The same applies here as to the parodies. There is absolutely no reason to have a list of every single appearance anyone can think of. For example: "In season 2 of Slings & Arrows, Richard Smith-Jones uses the song to audition for the festival's musical." So what? 86.143.52.18 13:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made an effort to consolidate the references and to give the section a semblance of narrative thrust.  -- Ssilvers 23:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another unrelated G&S reference is in season 4 of West Wing in the "Inaugural 1" episode President Bartlet describes Will Bailey's father (former supreme commander NATO) as "speaking of the very model of the modern major general." --MountainLogic (talk) 04:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Television references 

message: Andrew Davis, lead conductor of the BBC Proms during the 2000 season, craftily fitted the contents of the traditional speech at the end of the Last Night into the format of the Major-General's Song - "This is the very model of a modern music festival". Unfortunately, internet links alluding to this are very scarce - generally a brief throwaway comment in newspaper reviews, e.g. New York Times and The Guardian. Interestingly, The Guardian's review suggests "...modern music festival..." was performed in previous seasons as well, which, were it not for the aforementioned scarcity of internet links, would have enhanced its notability as a parody (albeit with slightly different lyrics each season!).
If anyone can find more comprehensive sources for this event, it might be worth adding to the main page, but until then, it's probably best left here... Mittfh (talk) 01:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The NY Times article is clear enough.  I added a mention to the article.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Last Night of the Proms

message: It's not clear what "the contemporary stailish vales …" refers to here. Was there a book with this title? Is this a quote from the opera? Unfortunately the only Google hits for this phrase are from this article and its mirrors. --Cam (talk) 01:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one has come up with a ref, I'm removing the statement.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Stailish vales" 

message: I added a link to a YouTube video with a character from the upcoming (as of this edit) game Mass Effect 2. While I saw that there was a general discontent with extraneous links, this is the first reference to it in a video game... so I figured it would be relevant. However, I'm not good at Wiki editing, and followed the example of other citations in the section to cite... could anyone fix that?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.151.63.78 (talk) 18:51, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.  I moved it up next to the Unix parody.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video Game Reference 

message: I cannot find any reference of "Pinky and the Brain" having a parody of Modern Major General, but I can find the Animaniacs series one of "I am the very model of a cartoon individual".  I suggest we strike the Pinky and the Brain reference as it really has no foundation.  I've spent the better part of an hour looking with no luck. There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance. - Ali ibn Abi-Talib (talk) 11:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, deleted.  Thanks for finding the refs.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  False TV reference 

message: Once, in the UCLA music library, I picked up the libretto for Pirates, and found that it had as the first line of this song I am the very pattern of a modern major-general, rather than model.  A little googling confirms that I wasn't hallucinating -- see e.g. http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-modern-major-general/ (but turn off Flash before you follow the link, if you don't like ads).
I would love to see a mention of this alternative lyric in the article, with some more information about it that I don't have (e.g. was it an early version?  a later revision that never caught on?).  --Trovatore (talk) 08:14, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting idea.  Perhaps you could research the matter and come up with a proposal to insert?  I do not believe that this was in the first night libretto or any Savoy libretto.  Mind, there would have to be some showing that this is relevant and important, as the Savoy operas were filled with minor text changes, some occurring well into the 20th century.  If it was simply done by Randy in Boise in 1976 and two or three other amateur productions borrowed the idea, it is probably not notable.  Let us know what you find out!--Wehwalt (talk) 13:19, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is in the first night version. See Allen 1975, p. 120. vvvt 14:01, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: G&S changed the word from pattern to model.  This was one of dozens (or hundreds?) of changes made to the libretto of Pirates.  Maybe a footnote would be appropriate, but there is not much to say about it, except that G&S quickly changed it to "model".  It is a distracting piece of information for a reader who is encountering the song for the first time.  BTW, VV, does Allen say that the word "pattern" was actually sung on the first night?  I don't think any version of the vocal score has "pattern".  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Allen claims to print libretti as they were "presented" on first night. I am not sure about whether it was actually sung. Allen says that there are so many minor changes that he does not list them. Searle in his bibliographical adventures (1931) claims that it is "pattern" in first edition of the libretto, but not in vocal score or Macmillan edition. Bradley (1996) just says that it was "original version" (I don't have my copy of Bradley right now, so I'm referring to Google Books). Most probably it was changed due to singability during some of rehearsals or the first night and the libretto was printed before the change. Some of reviews may mention the title (but I'm not into checking them). vvvt 16:22, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure nobody would ask you to do such a thing, VV. But if Trovatore is interested enough to research the matter that he has raised, nobody will gainsay him, I'm certain. - Tim riley (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Gilbert said something interesting about the change in wording.  A research project awaits someone ... Travatore.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

text: Here is just an FYI regarding Allen. All he is able to do is print the libretti as they were sold to audiences on the opening nights. There are countless examples where the libretti and scores disagreed with one another for decades, before finally being brought into agreement. Nobody really knows when all of these discrepancies were rectified. There are plenty of cases where the libretti and scores disagreed from the very beginning; clearly, they could not both have been correct. Marc Shepherd (talk) 19:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

text: Note that a new series of reference books is being published (the first volume is out now) providing a variorum for all of the G&S operas. Our own Marc Shepherd is co-editor. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:21, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "model" v "pattern" 

message: Do we really need to link every sodding other word in the lyrics? I don't think so. It looks ugly as sin and violates WP:OVERLINK. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 16:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please explain, using specifics, which links violate WP:OVERLINK.  I believe that these links help to explain the meanings of these somewhat obscure phrases and complex references - in the words of the guideline, they "will help readers to understand the current article more fully".  One of the purposes of this article is to annotate the song, and Wikipedia provides the perfect way to do that with these links.  Thanks.  Please keep all the discussion here where other editors can participate, rather than on my talk page, from which I delete old messages that I no longer need.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:29, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Lyrics]] 

message: I have removed this again. In the case of the "hum a fugue" the annotation is quite obviously WP:OR speculation. As previous discussion has shown, there are multiple other ways of reading that bit, and we simply don't have any reliable source about how it should be interpreted. The note about the "Frogs" is OR of the same type, plus, it is also quite simply factually wrong. The chorus of frogs does not only say "brekekex-koax-koax". It's a long, complex piece of choral lyrics . Note that Ssilvers' claim that these annotations are "referenced" is wrong: the footnote on the "fugue" bit points merely to a music theory text that defines what a fugue is, but of course contains no analysis of whether you could "hum" one, let alone an analysis of what the intended joke in this song is. Likewise, the footnote to the "Frogs" bit is merely to a standard text edition of that play, which, if anything, can only prove the exact opposite of what the note claims. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now added a reference to Benford, which discusses the fugue issue.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can't verify from here. What does he say about the Frogs? If he's seriously claiming the chorus is only brekekekex-koax-koax, he's ipso facto not a reliable source. It's plain wrong; read the play. WP:V is not a suicide pact; it doesn't force us to repeat obvious plain errors of fact when we know that's what they are. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

text: Okay. Although incidentally I, personally, wouldn't agree, but that's of course just my OR now. I hum fugues all the time when I come home from choir practice. (As somebody else said further above, what you do is you just hum the theme and perhaps the response or something, just like with other music with accompaniment.) For me, the joke is not that it's impossible, but that it's just so unlikely: fugue themes are usually a highly abstract, learned type of music, not "catchy" tunes that you would be likely to pick up. Just like many of the other items in the song, such as reciting Latin verse about Heliogabalus or writing notes in Babylonic cuneiform, where the joke is really neither about things being impossible nor about things being trivially easy, but about things being just extremely obscure, unlikely and remote from practical use. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  OR removed 

message: I believe the phrase "vegetable, animal, and mineral" is much more likely to be a reference to Linnean taxonomy in general, rather than the parlour game. Had anybody even heard of the latter in 1879? The link seems to have been added in , and has apparently gone unquestioned since. Gabbe (talk) 17:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ian Bradley's The Complete Annotated Gilbert & Sullivan, p. 220, refers to Twenty Questions, although he doesn't say if the game is the origin of the phrase in the song.  This 1882 book refers to it as a game originating in the mists of antiquity: http://books.google.com/books?id=VzoVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=%22twenty+questions%22+origin+game&source=bl&ots=-bWgsHcpyb&sig=u-zOeYeYGWTkr7oQQ1ZXtbpri60&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ttVtUOyuGM_W0gGemoGgCA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22twenty%20questions%22%20origin%20game&f=false. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:17, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vegetable, animal, and mineral 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 2 external links on Major-General's Song. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111004061206/http://www.old-print.com/mas_assets/full/N1081859407.jpg to http://www.old-print.com/mas_assets/full/N1081859407.jpg
*Added archive https://archive.is/20100531153112/http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/opinion/op_ed/article/ED-HINKLE7_20100506-183803/342617/ to http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/opinion/op_ed/article/ED-HINKLE7_20100506-183803/342617/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
 Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:19, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The fact that this hasn't been corrected leads me to wonder - however unlikely - if it was originally spelled that way. PurpleChez (talk) 19:45, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There's my answer. Sorry. PurpleChez (talk) 19:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Gilbert originally spelled it "Gineral" in his manuscripts of The Pirates of Penzance, as the footnote notes. See also   That is also how Gilbert spelled it in Songs of a Savoyard (1890). Many later editions, though not all, spell it "General", but apparently no one knows why. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:42, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Presumably Stanley has pen-pin merger and the spelling was to indicate that to the actors (that's WP:OR though). Similar to the orphan/often confusion in that half the joke is the delivery. Arlo James Barnes 17:54, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lyrics - "Gineral" 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:08, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: Star Trek:Short Treks, air date 10/9/19 title “Q&A” Spock and Number 1 get trapped in turbo lift and #1 sings “modern major general” 2601:541:700:3600:2092:923F:EDC4:9325 (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tv reference to add Star Trek: short Treks