Talk:Bolivarian missions

message: This page, if done well, would seem to duplicate a lot of the material from Hugo Chávez.  Utlimately, I think the material would be better placed here, where, for example, it would last if the programs last but Chávez doesn't, or just because Chávez probably isn't personally involved in the development of each mission.  DanKeshet 15:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The Bolivarian Missions template does not agree with the article. 
*For consistency, they should be in the same order
*The template does not include Florentino, Arbol, and Ciencia
*The article does not include Plan Bolivar 2000 and Piar
Sandy 13:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sync the template with the article

message: As the subheading of the section suggests, this isn't really criticism of the Bolivarian Missions, but of Chavez's policies more generally. Move elsewhere, if it isn't duplicated anyway. 86.53.55.135 09:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism section 

message: From a news report, I was left with the impression that the Misiones are efforts to bypass the inherited public sector (probably he thinks it corrupt) with task forces derived from the military.
Could you say that Chavez is building a parallel public sector?
--84.20.17.84 12:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bypassing the public sector 

message: This article should have less quotes of Chavez' rhetoric and more specific program details.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 18:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Details 

message: Why does each mission gets its own page? they aren't even in deep analisys of them. I propose that they be merged into a single page, or into this one.  190.72.36.225 (talk) 20:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sub pages 

message: [According to one Venezuelan columnist], most of the missions were created to bypass the formal system of public health care, nutrition programs and education system. This created more problems for the pre-existing public system: most of the hospitals are without proper equipment and new hospitals have not been created since 2003.
The above is misleading and partially inaccurate (no new hospitals? What about the Latin American Children’s Cardiology Hospital?), and it is based on an opinion piece. It is not a suitable source. There are criticisms to be made, but better sources are needed. Rd232 talk 22:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear friend Venezuela is a country of 27 million people, do you really think that only ONE Hospital in 11 years of government is enough to all the population?, this is not based on opinion, is an opinion based on a FACT. BCLH (talk) 15:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I just mentioned one I remembered. I don't know what your second sentence means. Rd232 talk 15:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It means the opinion of the Venezuelan columnist is based on data. And if you gonna make a change in the article referring just to one hospital, it is better to leave it without changes. Here is the WHO World Health Statistics 2009 , if you look the hospitals beds available in Venezuela, you will see that Venezuela is below countries like Urbekistan and Turkey, countries with less GDP. BCLH (talk) 16:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Um ... dude, those links you provided don't work so we have no idea is what you're saying is even remotely accurate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.172.21 (talk) 06:32, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved 

message: Much of the information in this article and other Bolivarian Mission articles needs to be updated, cleaned up, or just have citations placed in general.--ZiaLater (talk) 19:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update and clean up 

message: The following sections were placed by a user who sometimes forgets to place sources and needs to be worked on: --ZiaLater (talk) 00:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Uncited sections

message: Correlation does not imply causation with the Bolivarian missions, especially when comparing poverty, GINI index, water quality, etc. that have similar trends with other Latin American countries. Venezuela was flourishing from the 1950s to the early 1980s with oil profits that benefitted its people more than many Latin American countries giving them a lead in many social areas compared to the rest of Latin America. In order to distinguish the Bolivarian missions from normal trends in Latin America, we need to find sources and facts from this that are more concrete than those presented by CEPR, Venezuelanalysis and Z Communications.
Here is some stuff I moved here, though some is covered by existing sources:
*The infant mortality rate fell by 18.2% between 1998 and 2006.Central Intelligence Agency. (CIA, 1998). The World Factbook 1998: Venezuela. Retrieved 18 October 2005.Central Intelligence Agency. (CIA, 2005). The World Factbook 2006: Venezuela. Retrieved 22 July 2006. 
*Dead link - The government earmarked 44.6% of the 2007 budget for social investment, with 1999-2007 averaging 12.8% of GDP.Perdomo, Eucaris (Panorama 24 October 2006). Economía venezolana ha crecido un 12,5% en últimos 12 trimestres Retrieved 24 October 2006
* Moved here (outdated, elaborate?) - In September 2007, speaking at the inauguration of the school year, Chavez announced a new curricular programme to be adopted by both public and private schools, which would "promote values of cooperation and solidarity". While promising he would make education his top priority and increase funding, he spoke of his vision of the future of education, based around "learning to create, to live together, to value and to reflect."James Ingham. Venezuela leader's school warning. BBC News, 18 September 2007.
===References===
Reply: Honestly, Zia, your latest edits appear extremely partisan.  Removing much positive information from the lead based on a thin "correlation doesn't equal causation" argument while upping the criticism?  C'mon...  I restored some statistics.  They appear to be reliably sourced and and obvious cases of causation equaling causation.  At the very least, the extensively-used BBC source repeatedly draws the link between the social advances/improvements and the missions—heck, the article even lists many accomplishments under a section titled "Missions."  I added some quotes to the lead to highlight this, as well as pointed out the most prominent missions because it's relevant in a list of them.   Mbinebri  talk ← 15:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I also question why you don't mention what happened in Venezuela after the mid-80s in your attempt to make life there look fine up until Chavez.  The oil price collapse was a catastrophe for Venezuela—things like poverty skyrocketed—much more so than for anyone else in Latin America, so the comparison does not seem apt.  Regardless of how other countries were facing their own problems, Chavez tackled Venezuela's with the missions.  This seems kind of obvious to me.   Mbinebri  talk ← 16:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am just updating it with reliable sources. Poverty and such was stated below the lede in a designated section. I was just trying to not load the lede with a pile of statistics. If we are going to do that, let's throw in the murder rate, kidnapping rate and such.--ZiaLater (talk) 17:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Mbinebri believes certain social statistics belong in the lede, I have presented some that have been overlooked.--ZiaLater (talk) 20:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Statistics relating to the, well, mission of the Missions (poverty, education, etc.) are in general valid content for the lead—whoever wrote it be that way in the first place obviously thought so.  If you feel there's too much redundancy/detail in the lead, that's a valid point to discuss but it wasn't the originally stated intent of your edits.  That said, stats on the murder rate and kidnappings have no relevance to this article that I can see.  The Missions are generally anti-poverty, not anti-crime.   Mbinebri  talk ← 01:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with MbinebriCathar66 (talk) 01:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant to say not having such statistics in the lede. Sorry about that. Thanks for understanding though.--ZiaLater (talk) 02:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Correlation does not imply causation

message: Reply: Honestly, Zia, your latest edits appear extremely partisan.  Removing much positive information from the lead based on a thin "correlation doesn't equal causation" argument while upping the criticism?  C'mon...  I restored some statistics.  They appear to be reliably sourced and and obvious cases of causation equaling causation.  At the very least, the extensively-used BBC source repeatedly draws the link between the social advances/improvements and the missions—heck, the article even lists many accomplishments under a section titled "Missions."  I added some quotes to the lead to highlight this, as well as pointed out the most prominent missions because it's relevant in a list of them.   Mbinebri  talk ← 15:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I also question why you don't mention what happened in Venezuela after the mid-80s in your attempt to make life there look fine up until Chavez.  The oil price collapse was a catastrophe for Venezuela—things like poverty skyrocketed—much more so than for anyone else in Latin America, so the comparison does not seem apt.  Regardless of how other countries were facing their own problems, Chavez tackled Venezuela's with the missions.  This seems kind of obvious to me.   Mbinebri  talk ← 16:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am just updating it with reliable sources. Poverty and such was stated below the lede in a designated section. I was just trying to not load the lede with a pile of statistics. If we are going to do that, let's throw in the murder rate, kidnapping rate and such.--ZiaLater (talk) 17:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Mbinebri believes certain social statistics belong in the lede, I have presented some that have been overlooked.--ZiaLater (talk) 20:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Statistics relating to the, well, mission of the Missions (poverty, education, etc.) are in general valid content for the lead—whoever wrote it be that way in the first place obviously thought so.  If you feel there's too much redundancy/detail in the lead, that's a valid point to discuss but it wasn't the originally stated intent of your edits.  That said, stats on the murder rate and kidnappings have no relevance to this article that I can see.  The Missions are generally anti-poverty, not anti-crime.   Mbinebri  talk ← 01:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with MbinebriCathar66 (talk) 01:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant to say not having such statistics in the lede. Sorry about that. Thanks for understanding though.--ZiaLater (talk) 02:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: References

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