Talk:Hellenism (modern religion)

message: It seems to me the introduction is rather biased as it implies, constantly, that there is an exclusive ethnic hellenic component to the adherents of this religion, if you check the article's history and the user who made the changes you can clearly see the bias, while some may view ethnicity as an important component to the religion, others do not, I would urge anyone to change it, it does not speak for the plurality of the adherents of the religion around the world, many of whom would not find it wrong to be called pagans. In short the introduction is a mess with a clear bias and intent on calling this religion a greek ethnicity-only thing, which is not. --189.151.102.63 (talk) 00:46, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No we are not talking about members of an organized religion, in fact many unorganized adherents exist, we are talking about a myriad of practitioners who identify with any of the terms described in the page, religion does not need a government to back up its existence, perhaps a section should be made to distinguish this so called "Hellenic Ethnic Religion" though I've made the pertinent changes to state that in particular the YSEE sees itself as outside all of that. I just don't see why this should be made an ethnic issue. Hellenism is a religion, it is defined by a set of values and ritual practices as well as mythology. I have changed the page to reflect a more universal inclusive approach because I don't find the use of Greek and non-Greek to be inclusive and representative of the many people who identify as Hellenists --189.151.102.63 (talk) 01:55, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: "Hellenism is a religion" please supply evidence that it is. You claim it is. This is Wikipedia, you need proper citations to your claims.KLEOPATROS7 (talk) 02:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Religion "Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, beliefs, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements however, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion." "Different religions may or may not contain various elements ranging from the divine, sacred things, faith,a supernatural being or supernatural beings or "some sort of ultimacy and transcendence that will provide norms and power for the rest of life". Religious practices may include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration (of deities and/or saints), sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trances, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture. Religions have sacred histories and narratives, which may be preserved in sacred scriptures, and symbols and holy places, that aim mostly to give a meaning to life. Religions may contain symbolic stories, which are sometimes said by followers to be true, that may also attempt to explain the origin of life, the universe, and other phenomena. Traditionally, faith, in addition to reason, has been considered a source of religious beliefs" I wonder if that is enough "evidence" for you, stop editing in bad faith, this article is already quite the mess and not very clear. --189.151.102.63 (talk) 02:26, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  (1)There is no one definition of "religion" (2) We need actual sources to support Hellenism is *only* religion itself since that is not the historical usage. Just saying there are unorganized adherents does not qualify in my opinion as authoritative. (3) The changes made to the page are really not that objectionable thus far. (4) Can we agree to leave the page alone? It seems good to me.   Thank you for your contributions. Cheers. KLEOPATROS7 (talk) 03:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that we should leave the page be as it is now at the moment, I tried to at least reconcile the two viewpoints without them being overtly divisive, as to the answer if Hellenism is only a religion or something more, well it is very hard to answer that question but for the time being this page should be left as it is now The last pangean (talk) 16:26, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Hellenes and Hellenists

message: This article does not seem to be written from a neutral point of view, in that it spends much more time discussing the correct or desired perception of adherents than explaining the belief system itself and its history. Few facts are given early in the article. Contributors seem to be in dispute over whether it's a religion or not. Numerous previous entries on this talk page suggesting a complete rewrite would seem to support the use of this tag.
Replying to the paragraph above. Perhaps the fair thing to do for all parties is to delete this page all together since it was problematic since it was created. In all honesty individual pages should be created for individual legally recognized religions that have names for them. "Hellenism" is too broad of a term to use to speak on all the legal religions recognized by the Hellenic Republic and the one incorporated organization in the USA. Because this page may be open to abuse, by individuals or groups without a legally incorporated body to officially represent their side, it is bound to fall into disagreements and conflict. KLEOPATROS7 (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV Dispute

message: I suggest this page needs a major overhaul as it appears to have been written with a bias towards the perspectives and assumptions of US groups that no longer exist or that are in terminal decline. Groups in Greece started to appear on the net about the same time as the US decline and they have different perspectives & assumptions.
A more objective approach needs to be taken when talking about Hellenism and needs to be based on or closely related to the actual history of the term as a religious moniker from the mid fourth century. Other methods are often derived and lead to confusion when expanded, this has lead to an inability or unwillingness to further define Hellenism as a specific historical belief system.
If there are no objections I'll register and begin a piecemeal rewrite.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.60.23.206 (talk) 11:55, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't agree more. In fact, a much older version of this article was better than the current version. maybe go back to maybe this version and start re-editing from there. The problem is that Neopagans in the US will fight to keep certain perspectives off the page, specifically the perspectives of ethnic Hellenes working within the authentic religion. 2601:B:8D00:39A7:E8D0:572F:C59:7060 (talk) 14:23, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: The introduction to the article states that this is not a religion, more an activity based around understanding the ancient religious practices by reconstructing them. 
So why does the body of the article go on to refer to it as a religion?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.147.154.31 (talk) 17:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction? 

message: Should this still be considered a valid link? It is suppose to be an annual periodical, but there has only been one released, 2006. There looks to be no activity on the site, with no updates as to the status of future publications. I'm not sure this can be considered a legitimate source, if it ever really was. --141.158.54.153 (talk) 20:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks dead to me. I'm going to go ahead and take it out. - AdelaMae (t - c - wpn) 18:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Journal of Hellenic Religion 

message: This is in regards to the statement, "Not all modern Hellenic polytheists use a Reconstructionist methodology. A 2004 survey of 94 American Hellenic polytheists by Sarah Winter showed that 64% considered themselves to be Reconstructionist." The book provided no data analysis, and there was no weeding out of respondents. All respondents were included in the presentation, and no minimum standard for what a Hellenic Polytheist is and is not seems to have been used. Those who identify as Witch, Ceremonial Magician, Eclectic Pagan, Pagan, and Religio Romana had their answers included with those who where specifically a Hellenic Polytheist. Almost corresponding exactly to those who are not Reconstructionist are those that did not even identify as Hellenic. I do not believe this source can be used to prove the assertion made.--151.201.149.33 (talk) 17:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed statement and edited section because statement is not supported by cited source. --151.201.149.33 (talk) 14:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hellenic Polytheism and Reconstructionism 

message: Is the section "Hellenic polytheism in Wicca" at all appropriate in the context of the greater article? It seems to imply a link between the Hellenic tradition and Wicca, when one does not exist.
There is no real link between Hellenismos and Wicca other than each being non-Abrahamic. They are not linked with any form of shared ethical code, set of practices, core values, institutions, common traditions and rituals, recognized sacred texts, or history. Religions that share some closer link with Hellenismos include many Reconstructionist religions such as the Asatru, Religio Romana, Romuva, Celtic Recon, and some other indigenous religions. (Hellenismos Frequently Asked Questions)
I think it should either be removed or reworked. I'm leaning towards deleted since Hellenic Polytheism implies the Ancient Greek religions, and the modern Hellenic religious movements, of which Wicca is neither.--151.201.147.150 (talk) 18:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hellenic polytheism in Wicca? 

message: I believe adding the Neopaganism2 template is inappropriate for this article. While in a very technical sense Hellenic reconstruction is Neopagansim (New non-Abrihamic religion), it is as appropriate to classify it in such a way as it is to Classify Buddhism and Hinduism as Pagan. Popular Pagan culture (which the Hellenic tradition is being lumped into here) promotes a very eclectic and very individualistic form of practice based primarily on unverified personal gnosis blended with Wicca-ish, NeoDruid-ish, and/or HOGD-ish methodologies. Modern Paganism also has an exclusionary attitude toward more well defined religions that are traditional or reconstructionist. It is inappropriate to imply that Hellenism is Greek flavored Neopagansim. --151.201.148.127 (talk) 17:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there has been no disagreement, I will be removing the template. The term 'Neopagan' has a specific connotation that is not conducive with Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstructionism. --151.201.147.161 (talk) 12:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Tim, by your anti-logic displayed here, only a certain part of the native-born population of the United States should be allowed to call themselves "US Americans".  Lack of disagreement is not the same as consensus, either -- did you get visited by the Fail Fairy recently or something?  RealHellenismos (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template:Neopaganism2 

message: The section on Political controversy and discrimination is a bulleted list. It should be reformatted. --N-k, 23:45, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Political controversy and discrimination

message: I question the statement "There are no standardized naming practices for this religion, and individual practitioners and groups use a variety of names, often reflecting subtle differences in belief or practice." In looking at much of the listed sources for this article, it would seem the phrases Hellenismos, Hellenism, the Hellenic tradition, the Hellenic religion, and Hellenic Polytheism are all used interchangeably to refer to the religion, and are synonymous. The phrase Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstructionism refers to the overall movement and the methodology used to revive the religion, but is not the religion itself. The words Dodekatheism and Olympianism refer to specifc "denominations" that serve as branches focusing on specific schools of thought or the public practices of a specific polis, yet are still referred to as being included under Hellenismos, Hellenism, the Hellenic tradition, the Hellenic religion, and Hellenic Polytheism, and are part of the Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstructionist movement. --151.201.147.161 (talk) 15:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Groups and self-designations 

message: I am disputing the inclusion of Kharis: Hellenic Polytheism Explored by Sarah Kate Winter and A Temple of Words: Essays culled from five years of "Sannion's Sanctuary" by H. Jeremiah Lewis.
*Kharis: Hellenic Polytheism Explored by Sarah Kate Winter 
** The author has made public statements, prior to the books release, she no longer considered herself or her practice to be Reconstructionist.
** The book is vague and ambiguous in identifying what is and is not "Hellenismos" or "Hellenic Polytheism" and clearly states that the book's goal is not Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstruction, though does not exclude the movement in its discussion of worshiping the Greek Gods.
** Previous references to the claims made in the first version of the book where deleted for not being credible. These claims are reproduced in the second version.
*A Temple of Words: Essays culled from five years of "Sannion's Sanctuary" by H. Jeremiah Lewis
** The book is little more then a collection of uncited blog style opinion pieces from a website that a previous contributor removed for violated Wikipedia's 'repository of links' policy.
** The accuracy of information provided is completely in question.
** The comprehensiveness, scope and coverage of the work is limited.
** The books is not specifically in regard to Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstruction, and refers to the movement in a trivial and incidental manner.
Neither of these publications can be considered reliable reading material in regards to this specific article and topic.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.147.161 (talk) 16:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny, Tim, it seems very clear to me that used to recommend Sannion's book, and at one time very clearly would have included it on the Wikipedia list.  You also used to quote his site heavily -- I can find you quotes, if you want them, complete with links and everything.  Again, I'm calling shenanigans cos of your conflict of interest.  RealHellenismos (talk) 22:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then maybe you got the wrong person guy. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 01:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe s/he's trying to identify you by IP address. Easy mistake to make if they're really close. Kaethros (talk) 19:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

text: This article is about Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstructionism, not what is described in Kharis. The notability of this article relies on that movement, which primarily exists in Greece, and does not and cannot address other movements that do not possess notability. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 01:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, KHARIS does discuss Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstructionism. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is a NEUTRAL forum. Kaethros (talk) 03:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Further reading' dispute 

message: I am disputing the sentence, "Key to most ethical systems is the idea of kharis, or the reciprocity between humanity and the Gods, between individuals, and among community members." Kharis translates to favor or divine reward, which was believed dependant on reciprocity, but is not the concept of reciprocity. It is factually incorrect. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 00:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kharis does not translate to recoprosity 

message: I believe that the text bellow should be included to preserve the balance in the article:
It should be noted that this recent use of the term Hellenismos, for the ancient Greek religion or its modern reconstucted forms by some of its adherents today, it is questioned or even disputed as abusive by leading authorities on Greek Language and today's Greek society in general (as "Hellenismos" has a much broader meaning without religious connotations: to be Greek or Greekness). 
(Eidimon (talk) 20:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, there is no one term that works for all cases.  Worshipers of the Greek Gods, both in antiquity and today, are far more likely to describe themselves in terms of their religion, than they are  to give a name to the religion itself.  Indeed, the Ancient Greeks had no name for their religion.  Hellenismos was the first name ever given to the religion but that was a reconstructionist form championed by the Roman Emperor Julian, in the 4th century, as a movement against rising Christianity.  Other terms, such as Hellenism, are even more vague, as they can refer to many non-religious things  such as culture, history and philosophy.  At the very least, Hellenismos is used around the world and is approved, (if not used exclusively), by the Supreme Council of Ethnic Hellenes or the YSEE, the most authoritative body in the world on this matter.  By the way, they also explicitly reject the term Hellenism to describe the religion.  Not that I think their opinion is the only one that matters though.Reigndog (talk) 22:05, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other controversies 

message: Is there a universal Hellenismos symbol? I wrote Portal:Hellenismos and added it and Portal:Heathenism to Portal:Wicca's 'related portals,' since Wicas may want to know about other modern paganism (though I did not put portal:Wicca in the reconstructionist ones for obvious reasons.) I am asking about symbols because someone put a picture of Zeus for portal:Hellenismos on portal:Wicca. While he, or Hestia, may be a most important symbol of Dodecatheism, perhaps he is not as much for Hellenismos as a whole, since I have read many of the ancient Greek cults were separate until mythology related them. I was also reading online about possible symbols, and people recommended the wreath, and the vergina sun. Maybe there is no specific main symbol that does not refer to a specific deity. Do you think the portal should have one (or a combination) of these two symbols I mentioned, or is the bust of Zeus fine? (which for now I added in the religion portal)--Dchmelik (talk) 05:19, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the wreath is a great symbol.  Many Hellenismos groups with an online presence use some form of the laurel wreath as part of their logos.  Luckily, there is already an usable image here at Wikipedia of one.  I have added it.Reigndog (talk) 21:52, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  symbol of Hellenismos? 

message: This statement doesn't hold water: " [...] there is little academic material to suggest that [magic] was used widely in ancient religion." Especially given that the citation is not to any sort of scholarly work, but to a Neopagan's personal theological reflection. Work like that by Christopher Faraone (see this) speaks definitively that magic (a problematic category, sure, but setting that aside) WAS practiced in ancient Greece. I find that the sentiment that magic was not practiced in ancient Greece a stance of the school of thought associated particularly with Timothy Jay Alexander and hellenismos.us. Needs attention. 128.135.96.194 (talk) 23:08, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's factually incorrect but the intent is correct. Magic was associated with the Persians & condemned in ancient Greece and its practitioners were punished. The rennaissance popularisation of Magic has lead it to be retrospectively applied to many religious rites that would not have beden considered to be 'Magic' by the practitioners themselvs.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.60.23.206 (talk) 11:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Groups and individuals in the US, and across the English Speaking World, often conflate the idea that magic was practiced in Ancient Greece with the false notion magic was part of the authentic Hellenic religion. A thorough look at the history of magic, and of the Neopagan movement, reveals their self-perpetuated bias favoring the idea that all the ancient pre-Christian traditions of Europe were magical, despite the overwhelming evidence magical practice was rejected and prohibited in Ancient Hellas. The whole notion evolved out of Christianity's demonization of ancient religions, and that worldview was then adopted by Medieval mystics and sorcerers. 2601:B:8D00:39A7:E8D0:572F:C59:7060 (talk) 14:57, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Greek Magic? 

message: This article does not follow guidelines for external links. The external link section appears to be serving as a directory of online resources which is not an encyclopedic function. Jojalozzo 02:11, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many external links 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Πριν από πολλούς ή λίγους αιώνες, ανάλογα με την Ιστορία του κάθε έθνους μας, ο επιθετικός Μονοθεϊσμός κατέστρεψε τις Παραδόσεις μας, τις εθνικές μας ταυτότητες, τις Θρησκείες μας, και σε πολλές περιπτώσεις μας μετέτρεψε σε μειοψηφίες μέσα στις ίδιες μας τις πατρίδες.
Πάρα πολλοί από εμάς, αγωνιζόμαστε. Όμως θέλει μεγάλη προσοχή στην στρατηγική αυτού του αγώνα που κάνουμε.
Όποιος αγωνίζεται, λανθασμένα, για να μην εξαφανιστεί, και μόνο γι' αυτό, για να μην εξαφανιστεί, με την πρώτη ήττα θα εξαφανιστεί.
Αντίθετα, όσοι αγωνίζονται για να πάρουν πίσω αυτά που τους ανήκουν, να πάρουν πίσω αυτά που τους έκλεψαν, να πάρουν πίσω την εθνική τους ταυτότητα, τον προγονικό τους Πολιτισμό, την εθνική τους Θρησκεία, το αξιακό σύστημα του έθνους στο οποίο ανήκουν, δεν πρόκειται ποτέ, ποτέ μα ποτέ, να ηττηθούν πραγματικά, άσχετα από το πόσες πιθανές εφήμερες, πρόσκαιρες ήττες θα υποστούν απέναντι στον πολύ ισχυρότερο εχθρό.
Το μήνυμα είναι πως δεν αγωνιζόμαστε για να μην εξαφανιστούμε. Αγωνιζόμαστε για να πάρουμε πίσω όλα αυτά που μας ανήκαν. Και εξακολουθούν να μας ανήκουν. Και θα τα πάρουμε πίσω. Με την βοήθεια των εθνικών μας Θεών.
69.27.201.250 (talk) 15:56, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  the voice of Supreme Council of Ethnikoi Hellenes 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello,just want to ask if you can add the information about the recognision of 'Hellenismos' or the revived form of the Ancient Greek religion made by the Greek state?
https://m.facebook.com/HellenicTradition/posts/1266907963377401 Kp4816 (talk) 05:55, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It should certainly be mentioned that they have now achieved the official status of a religion, or something along those lines. Here is the actual press release, for citing. Wasechun tashunka (talk) 19:58, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recognision of the national Greek religion in Greece 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: YSEE is a racist, homophobic nationalist group. Ethan6809 (talk) 03:49, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please don’t trust YSEE 

message: The title of this article is Hellenism (Modern Religion), revised from Hellenism (Religion) (to disambiguate from ancient Greek religion). Therefore, the subject matter should be first and foremost the religion. While it is important (for disambiguation) to mention that "Hellenism" can also be used to refer to the totality of Greek culture, this should not be in the opening sentence of the article. There are already articles about Greek culture, including Culture of Greece. If you wish, you may create a new article called Hellenism (Greek Culture) specifically for this subject. Nath.king93 (talk) 05:16, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introductory Paragraph - Hellenism as a Religion 

message: I propose the name of this page be changed to "Modern Greek Religions" - given the usage of Hellenism in the Angloshphere is controversial. KLEOPATROS7 (talk) 22:40, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is about modern religious movements that claim inspiration from or descent from the religion of the ancient Greeks. An article called 'Modern Greek Religions' would cover Christianity and the other religions practiced in Greece, and it is not sensible to expand this article to cover them. I think we should keep the current title. Verbcatcher (talk) 04:47, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change Article Name 

message: In the intro there is the sentence "In 2006, Ancient Hellenic Religion, was granted "known religion" status by Greece." followed immediately by the sentence "In 2017, Greece legally recognized Hellenic Religion as a "known religion."" Was this status granted in 2006 or 2017? Are "Ancient Hellenic Religion" and "Hellenic Religion" different things? Were these two separate statues granted? Right now it just seems like the article is contradicting itself. Gazingo (talk) 16:15, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  2006 or 2017?