Talk:Silesia/Archive 6

message: * (1) Should this article and the introduction paragraph be focused on modern or historical Silesia
Silesia is a live province of 10 million people. I suggest that the first paragraph should describe its current status, division and people. And the second paragraph should describe the outline of its rich history. (see suggestion below) CC, 20:41, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answers: Modern or historcal region 

message: * (2) The boundaries of Silesia: is Silesia part of Poland and Czechia only, or Germany too.
In my opinion there are three attitues in determining the boundaries of Silesia:
* the oldest historical boundaries
* the longest living boundaries
* the modern boundaries
I see no reason why the boundaries in Prussian time should be definitive, they are only auxilliary and should be used if it helps to define the boundaries.
In most cases all three attitudes bring the same results. There are only doubts about the far western and far eastern frontiers of Silesia. Summary of my opinion is that Czech Silesia, Oswiecim-Siewierz-Zator-Zywiec area, Klodzko area and Polish parts of historical Lusatia should be included in the boundaries of Silesia. At the same time the Gorlitz area of Germany should not be counted as part of Silesia as it was only temporary within the administrative boundariies in Prussian times. CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answers: bondaries of Silesia 

message: * (2a) Is the Goerlitz area part of Silesia or part of historical Lusatia and Saxony now
Accordig to all three methods the Goerlitz area is not part of Silesia. I see no reason why the boundaries in Prussian time should be definitive. 
There are some doubts whether areas of historical Lusatia, that are parts of modern Lower Silesian Voivodship should be counted (my answer is yes). CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answers: the Gorelitz/Zgorzelec area 

message: * (2b) Are the historcial duchies of Siewierz, Oswiecim, Zator and Zywiec part of Silesia or not. This is imprortant because they were part of Poland since the 15th century till the partitions of Poland.
According to methods 1-2 areas of Siewierz, Zywiec, Oswiecim and Zator are also part of historical Silesia, although it is now a borderland between Polish Silesia and Little Poland. CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answers: the Siewierz/Oswiecim/Zator/Zywiec area 

message: * (2c) Is the Czech Silesia: Ostrava/Opava/Karniow/CeskyTesin area part of Silesia?
According to all three methods the Czech Silesia, is also part of the historical and modern Silesia. CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answers: the Czech/Bohemian/Austrian Silesia 

message: * (2d) Is the Klodzko area part of Silesia?
The county of Klodzko was historically part of the Czech Kingdom, and not part of the Silesian province in the Czech and Austrian times. It it was ruled by the Silesian dukes it was still considered part of Bohemia/Czechia. It was separated from Czechia in 1742 and joined to Silesia, where it remains till today. CC, 19:49, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answers: the Klodzko/Glatz area 

message: * (3a) What was the ethnic majority of Silesia in various times (ethnic ties)
* It is not true that Silesia had a German majority, at least there is no reliable proof that there was such a majority. It is better to say that Silesia was half German, half Polish from ethnic point of view, of that the Lower Silesia had a German majority, and Upper Silesia had a Polish majority.
** Nonsense. The 1905 census showed an German 3/4 majority. Nico
** According to the German census of 1905 the population of German Silesia was 4,942,611, of whom 2,120,361 were Protestants, 2,765,394 Catholics and 46,845 Jews; Three-fourths of the inhabitants and territory are German, but to the east of the Oder the Poles, more than 1,000,000 in number, form the bulk of the population, while there are about 15,500 Czechs in the south part of the province and 25,000 Wends near Liegnitz
Most of the historians accept the religious numbers as the German government has no interest in falsifying them, at the same time these historians do question the ethnic numbers. (the etnic stats are indeed for the language not etnicity. The historians think that some of the Catholics were indeed the Poles counted as the Germans.
You have also to consider the Austrian Silesia: In 1900 the population numbered 680,422, which corresponds to 342 inhabitants per sq. m. The Germans formed 44.69% of the population, 33.21% were Poles and 22.05% Czechs and Slays. According to religion, 84~ 73 were Roman Catholics, 14% Protestants and the remainder were Jews. 
You have also consider the Polish Silesia (with some 500.000 inhabitants - mostly Polish)
* It is very offensive to say that there was a German majority before 1945 as this was the period of Nazi atrocities, masacres, mass murders and reseltllement, If we want to show the historical status its better to say before 1938, of before WWII. CC, 19:14, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Answers: ethnic ties, etnic majority 

message: * (4) Should the Silesian name (Ślunsk, Ślonsk) be also mentioned?
In my opinion it doesn't matter if the Silesian dialacts are considered to the the dialacts of Polish language or dialects of the Silesian language. The fact is that the Silesian name exists: ussualy spelled: Ślunsk, Ślonsk and they should be listed. CC, 20:51, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silesian name of Silesia 

message: I think we are going in the right direction (multi-cultural intro) very slowly but still not far enough. Here are a couple of my opinions. 
* It is good that Polish, German and Czech names of the region are listed, but its bad that the Silesian name is not listed. Polish name of the region is Śląsk, and the Silesian name is Ślonsk, Ślunsk (in various dialects; spelling unsettled yet)
* I don't like the historical bias of the intro. This intro describes Silesia as a dead province of the past. Silesia is a live province of 10 million people. I suggest that the first paragraph should describe its current status, division and people. And the second paragraph shoul describe its rich history.
* The phrase what is now Poland and is very offensive and should be removed
* I have spent several hours documenting that the ties with Poland were not decreasing (see above and arhcives). There were times that the ties were increasing and decreasing - the history is a zig-zag, not a straigh line.
* It is not true that Silesia was Polish in the middle ages and after 1945. Parts of Silesia were Polish all the time, parts of Silesia were Czech all the time. It is better to say that most of Lower Silesia belonged to Prussia-Germany in years 1742-1945, and the Upper Silesia was divided between Prussia, Czechia, Poland and Austria (and the frontiers were changing)
* It is not true that Silesia had a German majority, at least there is no reliable proof that there was such a majority. It is better to say that Silesia was half German, half Polish from ethnic point of view, of that the Lower Silesia had a German majority, and Upper Silesia had a Polish majority.
* It is very offensive to say that there was a German majority before 1945 as this was the period of Nazi atrocities, masacres, mass murders and reseltllement, If we want to show the historical status its better to say before 1938, of before WWII. CC, 19:14, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silesia is live nor dead region (my original comment) 

message: Except the intro debate there's also some confusion about the history section. Current version the history is unacceptable as it is a history of German colonization of Silesia' I have tried to make some improvements have some small successes. 
Just before the page was protected I tried to add these 4 passages, but they have been reverted by Nico five times. So I am asking you Nico for the second time: do you have anything against incorporating these sentences about historical facts into the history section of Silesia. CC, 20:35, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debate on History of Silesia 

message: During World War II the Nazi Germany has annexed the Czech Silesia in 1938 (part of the so called Sudetenland) and Polish part of Upper Silesia in 1939. Mass massacres, expulsions and murders of the Poles and Jews followed.
Do you have something against? Caius2ga 20:35, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mass massacres of Poles and Jews 

message: This is the introduction of the Silesia article at http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/s/silesia.asp
Silesia , Czech Slezsko, Ger. Schlesien, Pol. S´la?sk, region of E central Europe, extending along both banks of the Oder River and bounded in the south by the mountain ranges of the Sudetes—particularly the Krkonos<caron>e (Ger. Riesengebirge )—and the W Carpathians. Politically, almost all of Silesia is divided between Poland and the Czech Republic. The Polish portion comprises most of the former Prussian provinces of Upper Silesia and Lower Silesia, both of which were transferred to Polish administration at the Potsdam Conference of 1945; the Polish portion also includes those parts of Upper Silesia that were ceded by Germany to Poland after World War I and part of the former Austrian principality of Teschen . A second, much smaller part of Silesia belonged to Czechoslovakia since 1918, and became part of the Czech Republic with the dissolution of Czechoslovakia in 1993.
And here is another article (Catholic Encyclopedia): http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13790b.htm
And the Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=403975
Historic region, east-central Europe. It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic. [...] -- Nico
Why don't you use, as the most neutral way, a very very short introduction and a very long history part, in which all facts are described, such as 60%-votes, mostly a legal part of Poland today, ...? Things could be so easy. 82.82.129.22 08:26, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other encyclopedias