Talk:Deus Ex (video game)/Archive 4

message: It seems that recently users  A Man in Black and Nifboy have gone on a deletion spree through the various Deus Ex pages, with deletion notices now posted on a good swath of them. The only reason they have given for any of their notices is that the offending articles are merely "plot summary", which seems to me quite ridiculous in the majority of cases (see my views on the subject on the Talk: VersaLife page). If you are against this overzealousness, like I am, please voice your comments on any of the affected pages. -- Grandpafootsoldier
I too am getting fed up of "fiction purges" on Wikipedia, which is part of a growing number of problems on Wikipeda (next to increases in vandalism, CCS\CC flaming etc.) Can these two users just drop it, its damaging Wikipedia to the point of utter stupidty. I am also considering propsing either semi-protection to many articles or speaking to Jimbo about the matter in hand. -Dynamo_ace Talk
:If the deletionists succeed to remove fiction, I wonder what will they attack next - would it be science-cruft, history-cruft, or something other.
:I suggest that we place some articles not yet put on proposed deletion on watchlists. For instance, I just didn't notice how a couple of articles went away. This should be at worst resolved through AfD, not by prodding unwatched articles. 
:BTW, don't forget that if you oppose proposed deletion of some article, you just need to remove the prod template. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 23:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion Spree

message: Regarding the following entry in the Trivia section: "Some of the robots in the game are very similar to the ED-209 robot from the movie RoboCop". Does anyone agree with this? Compare  to . Sure there's a *slight* similarity, but no more than they both resemble any of a dozen Battletech designs. Clayhalliwell 19:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a bipedal robot with guns.  That's about where the similarity ends, I'd say. Gamer Junkie 19:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ED-209 

message: It says the Midnight Sun came with the GOTY edition. However, I got Deus Ex when it first came out and it included The Midnight Sun. Aerothorn 15:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Midnight Sun 

message: Okay, this has bugged me for a long time and I don't at this point see a good solution (especially on the Invisible War side). The Deus Ex character pages on the whole seriously need to have some set system at this time. 
We have the Minor Deus Ex characters page; the Deus Ex: Invisible War characters page that has organizations as well as characters, and which is labelled as "Minor Invisible War characters" on the Template: Deus Ex; about a dozen single character pages from both games - all of which, in the case of Invisible War characters, are redundant to the main character page; and to top it off we have some characters, since they appear in both games, making an appearance on up to three different pages (I'm thinking specifically here about Nicolette DuClare/"Her Holiness"). 
The whole setup is very unproffesional, sloppy, and confusing, but I don't see a really good way to fix it at this point (this is especially true in the case of Nicolette DuClare as any setup in conjunction with her "Her Holiness" alter ego results in major spoilers for the uninformed). I suppose one could just merge all IW single character pages into the main IW character page, but that doesn't seem quite fair given the single Deus Ex pages (though there are admittedly many more Deus Ex NPCs). A good compromise might be the creation of a Major Deus Ex Characters page leaving just the main protagonists from the two games with their own seperate page.  Also, on the other hand, one could just axe the IW main page and leave the seperate pages.
If anyone can offer any other suggestions for this problem I would appreciate it, as it really needs consideration. - Grandpafootsoldier
:The other thing that needs looking at is the excess detail of some pages, particularly the Minor Deus Ex characters page. I'm not going into the whole "fancruft" debate (at least not here). However, there is a lot of extra stuff in there, particularly that added by Gamer Junkie, which while not badly written, does not seem to be reflected in the games canon (or at least not to that extent).--Drat (Talk) 11:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I have so far altered the Template: Deus Ex; removed the redundant "JC Denton" section from the Deus Ex: Invisible War characters page and replaced it with a link to the JC page; and have removed the unnecessary and redundant "Organizations" section from the IW characters page, transferring any useable text to their seperate respective pages (the section didn't belong on that page anyway and made it too long). Whew. Now, I just need to figure out whether all the seperate character pages should be merged into the main IW page or not. -- Grandpafootsoldier 08:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish somebody had said something earlier about the article size before I'd scrounged up every little scrap of information available on the Net for each character on the page.  I was simply attempting to add depth to each character's background as many of the descriptions were nothing more than a sentence or two (and often poorly written or spelled, at that).  I've spent a LOT of time adding to the minor characters article, so if a it's going to be cut down, please tell me now before I start searching for more information and adding detail to the remaining character descriptions.  I didn't think that extensive detail was bad, so long as it's relevant to the character. Gamer Junkie 04:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Were not saying anything for certain at this point. It's just quite obvious that the current set up is not optimal as we have multiple redundant pages. We not only have character info on the main IW character page, but on seperate individual pages as well. Also, I haven't deleted anything of what you have written on that page. The JC Denton section's content has been moved to the JC Denton page, and the same goes for the organization sections. -- Grandpafootsoldier 23:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Grandpafootsoldier, I should have mentioned that my reply was in regard to what Drat had written.  I suppose we could also remove Kang Zhou and the three governors from the minor Deus Ex characters page.  I haven't been able to find ANYTHING on them, and I barely recall them as part of the game.  We could also remove Dr. Gary Savage, as I've already moved the entire X-51 group over to the organisation's article. Gamer Junkie 01:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Character page setup need to be fixed

message: One of the two "gamecruft deletionists" has started an AfD on Robots in Deus Ex article, with debate on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robots in Deus Ex. While it is not the best and not the one most notable our articles, it's most probably an attempt to set a precedent for deletion of other related articles, so I suggest anyone concerned to comment or vote in the debate. --CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 20:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to admit I don't really see the need for that article. It seems rather arbitrary in its scope. Why just the robots of Deus Ex? A broader "Enemies in Deus Ex" page would be more sensible. Clayhalliwell 19:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, probably, or with a different name (not all are enemies). But this just isn't an issue for AfD - we would better discuss it here and just implement. Also, he has some time ago put PROD (proposed deletion) template on all Deus Ex articles, and successfully deleted one, so that's why I think it's undesirable. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 19:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The next wave 

message: Alright, here's what I propose. To cut down on the rather large number of Deus Ex pages some more, I think the creation of a "Major Deus Ex characters" page is in order. We could then merge Bob Page, Walton Simons, Gunther Hermann, Anna Navarre, Sam Carter, Morgan Everett,  and any other characters into it as need be. 
For right now though, given that Tracer Tong and Paul Denton appear in both games, they should probably keep their respective pages. Also, as Chad Dumier and Nicollette DuClair also appear in both games, the creation of seperate pages for them might be worthwhile (this is especially true of DuClair given her "Holiness" alter ego as mentioned before). 
Comments? Thoughts? Ramblings? -- Grandpafootsoldier 07:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  Create a major characters article.  Nicolette and Chad should keep their respective sections in both the minor Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Invisible War pages, as the characters are so completely different.  It would also spoil it for those who have not played one or the other. Gamer Junkie 07:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is true, but they technically are the same character still, so it is kind of a funky setup to have one half of their articles on one page and one on another. What I was thinking was the same kind of thing done with the JC Denton and Paul Denton pages, i.e. have the article noticeably seperated into "Deus Ex" and "Invisible War" sections so that if some has not played one game or the other they can avoid its respective segment. -- Grandpafootsoldier 07:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, that sounds acceptable.  If they are in seperate paragraphs and clearly headlined, it should work fine. Gamer Junkie 14:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Major'' Deus Ex characters page? 

message: Is anybody else here interested in running a peer review on this? I'd like to get some feedback to bring this up to FA standard. — Werdna talk criticism 06:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer review? 

message: There's a new article on DXMP. I suppose this topic isn't really expansive enough to turn into an article of its own, though I believe it would work as a subsection of the Deus Ex article. Right? --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 14:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue was not with adding information to the article.  The issue was with the fact that only two sentances were relevant information that was presented in a verifiable and NPOV manner, to say nothing of the sudden change in tone brought on by using words like "your" and "you" instead of "the user", etc.  Also, it contained numerous misspellings and horrid grammar. ("you're game" instead of "your game", etc.)  It was really, really hard to find any actual information in there, and what there was didn't take up much space.  That is why most of the added content was being deleted. -- Y|yukichigai 19:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd just like to point out that this sentance is perfect evidence of the problem I'm talking about. -- Y|yukichigai 08:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: ...If you re-read my responce, you'll notice that I also cited issues of verifiability and NPOV, or Neutral Point of View.  8 of those 10 sentances were either written as opinion (non-NPOV) or were obviously non-verifiable. (specifically, you need an external, linkable source available at the time of writing)  Removing all of the sentances which did not meet those critera left two sentances, which simply restated information already mentioned in the Overview section.  As it was redundant, I deleted it.  The second time I decided to hope against hopes that someone could maybe find a link to verify some info, or something to that effect, and left it up to another user.  As you can see, again we are left with two sentances which simply restate information already presented in the Overview section.  Unless something else verifiable and NPOV is added the section is guaranteed to be deleted. -- Y|yukichigai 08:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You *must* provide sources with your information. I also question the usefulness of a list of maps played on DXMP, and its merit for a general-purpose encyclopedia. Finally, please don't use the argument "somebody else is doing it so it's okay". It doesn't hold any water with me. — Werdna talk criticism 23:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[DXMP]] 

message: Okay, I have redone this article a bit to hopefully make it more coherant, structured, and organized. It could perhaps still be rearranged a bit more, however, to maximize the effectiveness of the layout.
I have also renamed the "Trivia" section "Literary and popular culture references" as that is all that section is composed of at this point. 
There are still a couple things which really need to be done for this page as soon as possible. First, and perhaps foremost, is the creation of a plot summary of some kind. It's ridiculous that a game page this size and about a subject this well known does not have one yet.  Second, the "DXMP" page either needs to be vastly expanded or  (preferably) just merged into the main article. Though I admit I have never player multiplayer Deus Ex, I cannot image that it is such an extensive topic that it warrants its own page. -- Grandpafootsoldier 01:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ways to improve this article