Talk:Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia

message: The present heading of this article, Grand Duke George of Russia, is an obvious POV. For example, the titulary Grand Duke is against all approved usage here in Wikipedia. 217.140.193.123 1 July 2005 07:01 (UTC)
I'm going to move this to George Mikhailovitch of Russia as long as there are no protests. Morhange 20:44, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 20:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  untenable heading 

message: I know very little about the Russian monarchy, but I heard that the title "tsesarevich" was used in recent times rather than "tsarevich". Should this be replaced in the article? Lesgles (talk) 00:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been a subject of dispute for a while. I am underinformed on the issue, but it seems all the children of a tsar were tsarevich and tsarevna. The heir was the tsetsarvich and his wife the tsetsarevna or something like that. At any rate, he is the son of the woman who would be tsaritsa, so both or either apply. Charles 00:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  tsarevich or tsesarevich 

message: Since this article is anyway a fruit of fantasy world, a place where young George is allowed to be Tsesarevich and his dear mother an Empress regnant, how about we add things to this fantasy. My personal favorite is to determine the succession based on ancient Kievan Rus line of succession, as applied now to Holstein-Gottorp family. It cannot be more wrong than any nice application of whatever, are such Pauline laws or what. In that, agnatic seniority determines the succession. The scenario: Alexander II barely succeeded his father. Then he was succeeded by Constantine II. Nicholas II was a different person than the one generaly known under that name, and reigned one year. Michael II survived his nephew,Grand Duke Alexander Alexandrovich, who did not have the opportunity to become the dynamic conservative ruler he once was. Nicholas III Constantinovich possibly was not murdered by Bolsheviks, as events could have been different with those as recent emperors. Nicholas Nicolaievich, the general, was the senior as he was in exile, and instead of just being treated as senior grand duke and a claimant by some, he woould have been the head of the house. Michael III, another one with morganatic marriage, would have reigned a couple of months. There would have been Peter IV. Alexander (here "III") and not his brother-in-law Nicky would have been tsar. Kiril I had shorter "reign" than in primogeniture. Boris I and Andrew I... Certainly one of these would have accepted one or several of the morganatic marriages as acceptable for dynasty, and more heirs would be legitimate tan in the current fantasyworld.
I have liked to check such lists, as it brings experimental material what are differences between different systems of hereditary succession. In agnatic seniority, the throne is turning more and more, between all branches of the family. There are more rulers and reigns are generally much shorter. Younger branches seem to be favored more by such turnover and eldest branch possibly succeeds never. Shilkanni 10:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was Move.  —Wknight94 (talk) 03:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pretensions 

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support As nominator. Charles 21:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The so-called Curatrix of the Throne of Russia camp clearly believes that Maria Vladimirovna succeeded her father, on basis of semi-salic house law. George, self-evidently, is her heir.
Some other monarchists believe that male-line heirs of the Romanov are better entitled to the legacy than Maria, a woman. An unbroken male-line Romanov descent apparently produces a better right in minds of some people.
From the material of RFA, it seems that actually they (the Romanov Family Association) have the position that it is up to the Russian people to decide whether to restore monarchy and who in that case to choose. And their material also seems to reflect an idea that the strict Romanov imperial line is totally extinct, all descendants being morganauts (perhaps yet a more careful reading for the latter is needed, perhaps it is not so clearly worded there).
Nicholas Romanov is the elected President of the Romanov Family Association. Clearly, other of its membership have put their trust in him as to hold the family headship. For some reason, the today's Almanach de Gotha (which is presumably a different thing than the old AdG publishing tradition), lists Nicholas as the head of the house. However, Nicholas is actually the product of a marriage contrary to Dynastic Law of Imperial Russia (morganatic marriage) and therefore ineligible to succeed to the throne under the Russian succession law.
There exist several male-line morganaut descendants of Nicholas I of Russia, for example the mentioned president Nicholas, as well as Michael Andreyevich Romanov (b 1920) who has not staked a public claim. Perhaps their claims/entitlements should be fuller presented somewhere, but probably not in George's biography article. Shilkanni 23:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion is that a mention of rivals of George are in place in this biography (and also such rivals who have a viable right though not actively asserted - their reclucence also affects), as such persons have an impact to George's life because of George's chosen occupation. But elsewhere (actually, it has now started to take place at Line of succession to the Russian throne) is the right place to detail those succession details, grounds for rival rights to claim  - it can there happen in one place, nopt spread over a bunch of biograhies). Shilkanni 05:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you see any reason to mention Michael Andreyevich specifically? I can see no particular reason that he should be seen as individually noteworthy. john k 06:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I've recently moved all discussion of the succession controversy from about five web sites (Romanov; Romanov Family Association; Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia; Nicholas Romanov, Prince of Russia; Titular Emperor of Russia) to the page Line of succession to the Russian throne.  The different discussions were highly repetitive and of variable quality, since people were making changes to one without changing the others.  Now, as far as I know, there's a single page where all that is discussed.  So I've now done that with this page too.  As far as I can tell, the POV marker related to claims made about the succession controversy, not the question of what to title the article.  So I've now also removed the POV marker. Chaucer1387 13:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  beliefs of factions in monarchist camp(s) 

message: copied a piece of text from the public list "Alexanderpalace", that written by Alex P on 12 Aug 2005: "I am very sorry to inform you that having personally met the Grand Duke George that he does not FLUENTLY speak, write and read Russian to a degree to be shown on Russian-television speaking it.  She has of late sent him to immersion classes but no he has not mastered the language.  He speaks it like a perfectly decent FRENCH university graduate would speak it with a "kartavz", a strong "karvatz", an "udareniya" that is off, and he addes a great deal of "vii zhaete" (vous savez...que..), in another words, he gallicisizes.  He does not have a grip at all on the komu/kovo cases, etc., etc."
Can we use Alexanderpalace publishings as sources, and/or is there any other source attesting something about George's skill in Russian language?
Surely all this is saying is that he can speak Russian, however, not with an excellent accent.--Couter-revolutionary 21:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  fluency in Russian language 

message: I'm confused I thought there was no royal family of Russia didn't that end when Nicholos II and princess anastasia and all them ewere killed  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charlieh7337 (talk • contribs) 02:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved to Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia. Original title, and consensus seems to be to move to Option B anyway. (non-admin closure) YttriumShrew (talk) 21:24, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: George Mikhailovich Romanov → ? – Considering the amount of edit-warring that has been going on in this page with regards to what his name and titles are, I thought it would be better to solve this issue by opening a new RM and leaving the options open so that the community can decide what the title should be. The question is: which of the following options could actually be his WP:COMMONNAME?
*A) George Mikhailovich Romanov (the current title, which according to User:Tone's statement when he moved the page in September 2020 is the name that is widely used in Russian sources)
*B) Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia (consistent with his mother's page Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia, both of whom were granted their titles by Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia, who in turn was bestowed with his own title by his father and previous pretender Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich of Russia)
*C) Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (perhaps more favorable now that Russia is not a monarchy; similar examples include Prince Dimitri Romanov, Prince Andrew Romanoff, Prince Rostislav Romanov (born 1985), Princess Olga Andreevna Romanoff, etc.)
*D) Prince George of Prussia (as he's also a descendant of the House of Hohenzollern through his father). Keivan.fTalk 05:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

text: *Comment I think we can safely discard option D as virtually no one calls him that. --Killuminator (talk) 22:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

text: *Support Option B or C. Lots of coverage from his recent marriage in reliable sources and all sources I’ve checked attribute the title Grand Duke, eg the BBC . - dwc lr (talk) 11:49, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

text: *I support option B/C though B is more correct. This is how he is cited by the New York Times, BBC, New York Post, Vanity Fair, the Guardian, etc. RomanetNYC (talk) 18:34, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 9 October 2021 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 16:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia →  – The individual is merely a claimant, and a highly controversial one at that, including his title, which was merely given him by his mother, who is not recognised by the Romanov Family Association as a Grand Duchess, or heir to the Russian throne. In line with Wikipedia's styling of other such claimants, the article should surely use birth name in the header, and disputed self-granted titles should be in inverted commas. MisterWizzy (talk) 14:42, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose - The Romanov Family Association has absolutely no influence over how Wikipedia articles are titled. And also the article was moved to this title from the proposed less than two years ago by the RM directly above this. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:24, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

text: OpposeI agree with Estar8806. Dimadick (talk) 15:34, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

text: Oppose: Vast majority of English-language RS refer to the subject as a "Grand Duke (Examples: NPR, CBS News, Reuters, CNN, Radio Free Europe, BBC News, South China Morning Post, Sydney Morning Herald, France 24, Independent, The New York Times, NBC News, EuroNews). In fact, I could not find any English-language RS that does not mention him without the title "Grand Duke" at all. StellarHalo (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 25 June 2023