Talk:Serbia men's national basketball team

message: Serbia is successor of ex Yugoslavia, so you have to put whole list of medal;s, not just since 1990s!
:FR Yugoslavia is not a successor state of SFR Yugoslavia. Period. What we should discuss is whether Serbia is a successor of FR Yugoslavia medals as FIBA count only results after 2007 for our team.--AirWolf talk 12:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No it is not true, read the FIBA homepage!--Je suis blocked by Darkwind 13:53, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

text: No, do not lie about, what FIBA recognizes!--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 18:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: All medal list

message: World Championship was given to Belgrade to organize as we were actual WC as well, but due to sanctions Serbia was kicked out. So it was not "did not qualify" but banned coz of political reason, political sanctions77.105.23.199 (talk) 13:04, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good information. Thanks!--AirWolf talk 12:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: 1994

message: I have tried to systematically gather relevant claims and evidence in this dispute (as well as adding some found during the writing of this section) in hope that this way all the evidence presented will be taken into consideration and not ignored. I am aware that this list may not be complete or accurate, so please feel free to join in. I'm experimenting here, so I don't know is it better to edit this list or create other(s). All I know is I would like the list(s) to stay as clean and manageable as possible.
For purposes of the debate I have reduced the scope to the most controversial part regarding the SFRY team records. The question is:
: Should a Wikipedia article on Serbia's national basketball team incorporate pre-breakup SFRY's national basketball team records?
Evidence for incorporating SFRY team records in this article:
# Claim: For FIBA records and statistics, Serbia is (indirectly) the only sucessor of SFRY. A successor's records should incorporate the records of succeeded teams.
## Source: Pages stating "Year of affiliation: 1936" for Serbia on FIBA World Championship 2006 site  
## Source: A FIBA news item stating "The Basketball Federation of Serbia will retain the place of the former Basketball Federation of Serbia and Montenegro as a FIBA member." 
## Source: Listings of "Participation" and "Achievements in FIBA competition" for Serbia (or Serbia&Montenegro) on FIBA World Championship 2006 site stating "SERBIA & MONTENEGRO (SCG) 13th appearance (3 consecutive)". 
## (moved to #2.1)
# Claim: International news organizations represent Serbia as successor to the previous Yugoslavia federations
## Source: Listing of international competition history of Serbia National Team on EuroBasket.com references complete statistics, starting at 1950 through 2006: 
## Source: InsideHoops.com combines records for SFR Yugoslavia 3 and 2 FR Yugoslavia championships (Total 5) 
## Source: InsideHoops.com article: "It was Yugoslavia (now known as Serbia & Montenegro) who defeated the USA Senior squad and eliminated it from medal contention at the 2002 FIBA World Championship..." 
## Source: CBC article: victory over defending champion Serbia and Montenegro.....which won the gold medal in 2002 as Yugoslavia, but only one player from that team was back to defend the title. 
## Source: Inq7 article: "The third world championship in 1959 was won by Brazil; the fourth in 1963, also won by Brazil; the fifth in 1967 by the Soviet Union; the sixth in 1970 by Yugoslavia; the seventh in 1974 by the Soviet Union; the eighth in 1978 by Yugoslavia; the ninth in 1982 by the Soviet Union; the 10th in 1986 by the US; the 11th in 1990 by Yugoslavia; the 12th in 1994 by the US; the 13th in 1998 by Yugoslavia; the 14th in 2002 by Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia); and the 15th in 2006 by Spain." 
## Source: ABC sport (.au) "In late matches, Spain ousted defending champion Serbia and Montenegro" 
## Source: Radio New Zealand "Spain beat defending champions Serbia and Montenegro" 
Evidence against incorporating SFRY team records in this article:
# Claim: FIBA official records and statistics for Serbia do not include SFRY team records.
## (removed)
## Evidence: Official FIBA Europe site page about Serbia team history 
# Claim: Other Wikipedia articles in similar situation do not incorporate records of pre-breakup teams.
## Evidence: Wikipedia article on Russia national basketball team.
## Evidence: Wikipedia article on Russia national football team.
## Evidence: Wikipedia article on Serbia national football team.
# Claim: Incorporating SFRY team records is misleading and unencyclopedic.
## Evidence: Infobox lists "Serbia" as "1970, 1978, 1990" World Champion, etc. 
## Evidence: Article is listing SFRY team achievements but is excluding many players who made them possible, apparently because they never played for Serbia (e.g. Dražen Petrović, Toni Kukoč). 
Comments about listed statements:
* I propose to add comments about the contents of the preceding lists here, to avoid clogging it. Hrvoje Šimić 21:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, please provide some sources as I have been doing that support your theory, as Wikipedia is not a place for original research.  Please point where else 'she' will be confused as this hypothetical nonsense is really not getting us anywhere and I have already tried to improve the article by clarifying where records are from.   At first I was assuming good faith when you decided to start this 'case' but now I'm not sure what your intentions are.  Please also understand that the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.// Laughing Man 14:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You have ignored or dismissed every source I have provided and flooded discussion with sources irrelevant to the dispute (stating S&M team is the new name for FRY team, which nobody disputes). On my attempt to discuss the implications of presenting SFRY team as the same national team as Serbia's you throw around inappropriate Wikipedia policies like some troll robot. If your goal is to make everybody else give up cooperating with you, keep it up - you're doing a good job. -- Hrvoje Šimić 17:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  All I've seen is one source above, the FIBA Europe link that does not display the full history of the team.  you have not produced a single source that states Serbia is a brand new team and does not succeed the previous federations.  The strongest primary source that we have so far is the FIBA press release that establishes continuity between Serbia and Serbia and Montenegro  The recent news sources I have provided are not irrelevant as it clearly establishes the continuity between Serbia and Montenegro and Yugoslavia, which is what Yoda1893 has contested from the beginning  so at a minimum, it should stop his disruption of the article.  I don't think NOR and WP:V are irrelvant and in fact if those were respected (providing verifiable sources instead of original research), there would be no dispute in the first place.  I have spent lots of time researching this on English language publications and have had a very hard time finding something more clear, and the best that I have found (FIBA sources) I have shared with everyone, and would appreciate if others did the same with their findings as it will help resolve the dispute. // Laughing Man 18:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not removing any sources.   Eurobasket.com is an international basketball news organization. // Laughing Man 06:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overview of evidence for dispute about incorporating SFRY team records 

message: They are!!
From  
 COUNTRY 	                                GOLD  	 SILVER  	 BRONZE  	 TOTAL  	
 USA  	                                        3   	 3   	 5   	 10  
 Soviet Union  	                                3   	 3   	 2   	 8  
 Yugoslavia  	                            3   	 3   	 2   	 8  
 Brazil  	                                2   	 2   	 2   	 6  
 Russia  	                                0   	 2   	 0   	 2  
 Argentina  	                                1   	 1   	 0   	 2  
 Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro)  	    2   	 0   	 0   	 2  
 Chile  	                                0   	 0   	 2   	 2  
 Spain  	                                1   	 0   	 0   	 1  
 Greece  	                                0   	 1   	 0   	 1  
 Croatia  	                                0   	 0   	 1   	 1  
 Philippines  	                                0   	 0   	 1   	 1  
 Germany  	                                0   	 0   	 1   	 1  
So, i'll cancel all references to SFRY  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.94.12 (talk) 10:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What about this update? See: .--AirWolf talk 12:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  SERBIA/FR YUGOSLAVIA AND THE SFR YUGOSLAVIA AREN'T THE SAME THING!!!! 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:KCC Logo.png

message: Medals won by Yugoslav national basketball team were won by Yugoslav team, not Serbian! Yugoslav team was composed of less than half of Croats so that makes it possible to Serbia have any rights on those medals, those medals should not be forgotten! Dražen Petrović, Aleksandar Petrović, Toni Kukoč, Dino Rađa, best players of Yugoslav basketball ever and they were Serbs! END OF STORY!- Most of the players were Serbs in all sports, Serbia is the most succesful sport nation that emerged from ex Yu so Serbia is the successor of those medals by right .END OF STORY
Though, i wouldn't say anything if teams were composed of 100% Serbs but in most cases it was composed of 50/50%, sometimes more than 50% Croats, not just in basketball, i'm talking about waterpolo, football, handball, volleyball as well...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.60.96.81 (talk) 23:53, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: What makes Serbia have rights to those medals?

message: (page 12) Please stop adding unsourced and wrong information. --Yoda1893 (talk) 23:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither it count medals of FR Yugoslavia to our team. Just post-2007 results.--AirWolf talk 12:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  FIBA does NOT add the success of SFRY to this team 

message: 93.87.142.54 (talk) 22:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 22:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2014 

message: | fiba_ranking   = 2  9
109.93.133.66 (talk) 19:00, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. FIBA still shows them as number 11 (). Stickee (talk) 05:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 15 September 2014 

message: Substituted at 05:47, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Past rosters

}}
Please remove the extraneous template closing tag there.
Jerod Lycett (talk) 18:45, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The extra closing braces are for the  template 2 lines above, which is syntactically correct. Not done. non-admin response — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 04:30, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Bgwhite fixed the issue in the meantime. No such user (talk) 11:50, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 29 August 2016 

message: Hello everyone! I put a first match after 1991. for FR Yugoslavia, and also I put biggest win, and los DusanSilniVujovic (talk) 14:14, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  First game, biggest win & lose 

message: Russia was Soviet Union's successor, but does not get any achievent's made by Soviet Union. Including Serbia&Montenegro'S / Yugoslavia's achievents here, is ridiculous. FIBA includes only statistics from 2007 onwards. SOURCE. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 20:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, perfectly right!!!--2003:C8:7F21:595B:45B9:BDEC:5E10:AEB8 (talk) 22:02, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

text: That is not mentioning Yugoslavia. My source is taken directly from FIBA's homepage. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:17, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This source is also from FIBA website (its just archived). And this is statement written by human, not some html code table. Serbia and Montenegro and FR Yugoslavia are one same thing. I dont know how you can not understand that.--Bozalegenda (talk) 22:28, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not concerned with political entities and sovereign states here. The only thing we are concerned with is which sports teams these achievements were awarded to. And the achievements in question were not awarded to Serbia but to a team simply called "Yugoslavia".Tvx1 03:55, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Once again you are talking nonsense. SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia were different countries. And FR Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro are one same country, and Serbia is direct successor of that team and that is the reason why Serbia played at the Eurobasket 2007.--Bozalegenda (talk) 17:55, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

text: There was a discussion concerning this, with lot of material for consideration - Talk:Serbia_men%27s_national_basketball_team#Final_disscussion:_Results/medals_history. The concensus was to split 1991-2006 results/medals/history from the article and to create a new article about FR Yugoslavia, as FIBA and IOC consider Serbia as "new" country from 2006. I'll do it in free time.--AirWolf talk 12:28, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I agree. FIBA actually credits all achievements from teams called Yugoslavia to one entity.Tvx1 12:33, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's a problem then... SFR Yugoslavia from 1945 to 1992 (22mil nation) and FR Yugoslavia from 1992 to 2006 (7.5mil nation except Kosovo as disputed territory, with Kosovo 9.5mil nation) are completely different countries. I think that we shouldn't have results from 1992 to 2003 included in SFR Yugoslavia teams just because of names. Serbia and Montenegro is the same country as FR Yugoslavia, just under different name from 2003 to 2006. What's your opinion?FIBA is very confusing about it. When Montenegro separated, it started in ranking from bottom, while Serbia preserved the position of FR Yugoslavia. Very confusing.--AirWolf talk 12:41, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Were not concerned with geopolitics here. Only with sportive results. If the official authority credits results to one entity, they credit them to one entity, period. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia was a different country too, yet we don't split these results either. There was clear continuity between the Yugoslavias. The national basketball federation kept operating from the same place with the same people.Tvx1 12:48, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Politically speaking, there's no single doubt that Serbia is the successor state of FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro which lasted from 1991 to 2016. There's a lot of international documents that verify that. However, IOC and FIBA are having different opinions about it. IOC treats Serbia as its member  from 1910 to 1918 and from 2006 onward. FIBA treats Serbia as new country in its history section from 2006. However, it treated Serbia as successor in tournaments and rankings when Montenegro split. That's why this is confusing. Politically, Serbia is successor of FR Yugoslavia (1992-2006), mainly because it has 93% of FR Yugoslavia population IMO. But IOC thinks otherwise. FIBA also.--AirWolf talk 12:56, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

text: Also, do not avoid the importance of political decisions when national teams are concerned. They directly have an effect of national teams.--AirWolf talk 13:30, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is utter nonsense 

message: I believe there is no reason to have a section named "Notable players". There is no clear inclusion criteria, and also, there is just too much outdated information about the players. For example, the achievements of Vlade Divac include "One of only two basketball players born and trained in Europe (Dražen Petrović is the other) to have his number retired by an NBA team" and "One of only two basketball players born and trained in Europe (Dirk Nowitzki is the other) to play at least 1,000 NBA games (1,134)". Both of these statements are no longer valid. Also, Predrag Stojaković's positions on certain NBA all-time lists obviously haven't been updated in a while. But the main issue for me is the inclusion criteria. I can't find any reason to include these specific players, and exclude some others.--Vitriden (talk) 08:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I always find useful a section with notable people or players in such an article. Some players played for a national team had very notable careers and were very well know across the world. It is definitely not original research to have such a section as it was mentioned in the deletion comments, it has nothing to do with this. There is no research at all with no input and no results. However, I agree that some description in this section is outdated and should be improved or removed. As for the inclusion criteria, the list is not definite, any player with broad recognition for his achievements can be added into the list at any point of time. It in nothing more than some examples of notable players and such lists exist in many other similar team articles.--Clicklander (talk) 10:56, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

text: False and misleading statements for deletion. Also, criteria is very simple - awards with the national team and club honors. Keep the section.--AirWolf talk 11:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of these players only represented Yugoslavia. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

text: In addition to Pelmeen10's argument, the list suffers from being highly subjective. "Awards with the national team" and "club honors" are not clearly defined, and I bet that dozens of players who played for the team during the years have won at least one award somewhere. I might accept a compromise if we can clearly define inclusion criteria (e.g. being a MVP or in a championship team or a captain or something), but e.g. Kićanović and Dalipagić have never played for the team and ought to go. And certainly reduce the list of awards and titles to a single line, this is about the team, the rest can go to individual players articles. No such user (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

text: If there are players who have never played for the team, they should be removed from the list. As for the rest, the career highlights are to show why these players are notable and those achievements do not have necessarily to do with their contribution to this team. No specific criteria for inclusion to the list are required, again these players are just examples of notable players, and this is justified by what they have achieved in their career. --Clicklander (talk) 20:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: And how does listing extensive career highlights of individual players pertain to the article about the national team? They belong to articles about those players. If we have no specific criteria for inclusion of anything, and go by just examples inserted at editors' whim, the articles will soon get into WP:INDISCRIMINATE mess of barely relevant information, which is what that section is. No other national team article lists the notable players in so intricate detail, and the list of notable players should not need extensive justification what makes them notable. Please take a look at guidance in WP:SCOPE, this is a bad case of cruft. No such user (talk) 08:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I want to help you here, but I would also like to have universal rule for all basketball national teams. I like the idea of having content similar to Lithuania_men's_national_basketball_team#Notable_players and also additional article like Medal winners in Lithuania men's national basketball team. You have mine consent if you make these changes and not just to remove excessive club achievements material. That's easy.--AirWolf talk 16:53, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

text: Also, it would be nice if someone can create and retrieve information for such article for SFR Yugoslavia national team (1945-92).--AirWolf talk 16:56, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable players 

message: What is the national game of serbia Jassi suthar (talk) 04:31, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the national game of serbia