Talk:Nowruz/Archive 1

message: (The proper spelling of the Iranian New Year)
Upon the recommendation of prominent Iranian scholars, most Iranian societies and foundations outside Iran, Iranian Cultural Heritage Organization and Cultural Research Bureau (Tehran), and upon the approval of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), and most importantly, for the consistency within the International Iranian Community, we should all write the name of the Iranian New Year with this spelling:
:Nowruz
—Remark by 128.230.136.12 on 10 March 2006
(Essentially same text as above was added to main article also.)
I have removed this as it was unreferenced and not really needed in the intro. --Kash 15:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nowruz

message: :It is known that Darius The Great accepted Akitu festive during the capture of Babylon under the Persian empire. This was celebrated by the Babylonians & Assyrians on what would be March 21 on the Gregorian Calender. The festival ran for 12 days until April 1st thus giving it the modern name "Kha B'Nissan" (in Assyrian Kha=1, Nissan=April) and is still celebrated by Assyrians and Chaldeans (Ancient Babylonians) today.
--138.130.32.229 12:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Noruz vs. Akitu

message: :"Nowrouz was invented by pre history king of Persia whom is now called Jam or JamShid he may have been iranian king almost 7000 years ago for more info refer to the book "Nowrouz Jam Shid a 395 well documented page book by Dr. Javad Broumand and www.zeebad.persianblog.com"
Could someone verify and/or clean this up? —Ashley Y 04:22, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)
----
That depends. Jam Shid is also held by modern Zoroastrians to have been the original prophet of Zoroastrianism (as well as the first man, also known as Yima), Zarathushtra himself only repeating the message several thousand years later. It should be noted that for Persian Zoroastrians, the progenitor of persian identity itself was Jam Shid. I think "clearing it up" to add Jamshid would require significant revisions to major parts of the article. --Venerable Bede 21:46, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. In the Avesta he is Yima Khshaeta. Vendidad, Fargard 2, says he is the Zoroastrian "Noah", but he is not the first man. Gayomard is. The 7000 years thing though. Honestly, I mean really. That's just a tad pre-history. But speaking of the historical Noruz, swastikas have been uncovered. Someone should document this and add it perhaps. The Swastika, of course, has nothing to do with Zoroastrianism, but with the common Aryan ancestry with the Indo-Aryans (Indians). Khirad 08:53, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jam Shid 

message: OK, I'm not actually Persian nor have I even witnessed this, so I'm sure there are errors... —Ashley Y 03:58, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)
The biggest oversight is the ommission of Hajji Ferouz, the "Santa Claus" of Iran.--Aufidius 00:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion

message: I know there are many cultures that celebrate it, but Norouz is more commonly known for being persian (Iranian) and I think they should be kept separate.
:I think they should merge. Cuñado  - Talk 22:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But why? They are very similar, but a bit different.
Näwrüz redirected here, the contents were already present so nothing is changed. Kaveh 12:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  merger of Näwrüz into Norouz 

message: Newroz existed thousands years before Iranian invaders. Especially among babylons, Akkads, and other non-Iranian peoples of Middle East. The article almost claims it is originally Iranian!Diyako Talk + 23:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And where did you get this obsecure piece of information from? How can this Iranian religion have existed before Iranian 'invaders'? Do you take medication which you sometimes forget? --Kash 00:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Until you provide academic sources for this claim, I am removing the dispute tag. --Kash 00:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please provide a source. --ManiF 00:23, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps everyone could be made happy if everyone reads #suggested rephrase of lead sentence, and made alternate suggestions. *sigh* Can't we have constructive co-operation instead of more "I am right" dogma? :) -- Fullstop 17:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute

message: It seems that the Persian and the Kurdish Newroz are two quite different things. What about splitting it up in two articles? Biji Newroz! Bertilvidet 15:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, You are right. besides it has its own long material and soon will be expanded totally. Diyako Talk + 16:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested split 

message: I think it is a good idea --Kash 21:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Diyako, can you please explain why the Kurdish version of the holiday is so different that it needs its own article? We don't have an article about the Russian version of Christmas for example. --Khoikhoi 21:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can I just quote Bertilvidet who suggested the Kurdish version should have its own page, now says in the other talk page ..
"I guess the history is the same, and I dont know if the current ways of celebrating it are the same among Kurds as among Persians. It would be OK for me if this article solely deals with political implications of the Kurdish celebrations of Newroz - in the case that the history, traditions and rites are the same."
--Kash 21:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I am very honoured to be quoted here. But please dont take it for more than just my humble opinion. Newroz has a political/ethnical significance for Kurds (at least in Turkey) that makes it deserve its own artice. Bertilvidet 23:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The Kurds are in fact an Iranian people. So basically, it would be illogical not to merge the two articles together. Good idea Kash, I was thinking along those lines myself. As others have already mentioned, minor discrepancies (if we can call them discrepancies at all) can be noted in an individual subsection within the “Iranian Nowruz” framework. --QajarCoffee 23:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already explained everything. There are many things that despite of having some similarities but still are different and distinct from eachother; for example: Persians and Tajiks are very similar but they have their own articles because they are different. The Kurdish Newroz is not the same as Iranian Norouz and the article on Kurdish Newroz discusses the details on the Kurdish New Year. I do not think Iran and Iranian is a holy thinh that every Middle Eastern tradition should be indentified with it. I even accepted to mention the Kurdish Newroz on this article. Diyako Talk + 23:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you really find that those of us who find that the Kurdish celebration of Newroz deserves an article is a bunch of idiots? Then please clarify that, because I dont consider myself as an idiot. Maybe we can find a common settlement by corporating rather than islulting one another. Bertilvidet 23:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you are neither misinformed, nor have bad intentions, the only alternative remaining is that you cannot think very clearly. Norouz is not Kurdish, it is Iranian, and a page claiming that it is only Kurdish is simply lying to the reader. There is nothing to discuss about that. (Or would you accept it if I created a page claiming Russia is a province of France? If I did, you would have every right to call me an idiot.) Shervink 23:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, feel free to think that I am an idiot. But may I suggest you rather to use your efforts on solving the issue and finding a comrpomise than embarking on personal attacks. Bertilvidet 00:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Another thing for all Iranian friends: I certainly do not oppose the article Norouz. I'm even still ready to help to improve this article. (Norouz). Diyako Talk + 00:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Kaveh, you just unilateraly deleted an article here, including its disucssion. This is a very bad behavior, when we discuss the article hedre. May I suggest you to seek a settlement we can agree on and participate in the talk rather than destructing. Bertilvidet 10:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If such destruction occurs again I am afraid we will have to protect the page. Hope it wil not be necesary. Bertilvidet 10:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Removing that fictitious article is removing vandalism, and Kaveh was very right to do so, his behavior is in accordance with WP policy which states that vandalism should be removed as soon as it is observed. Shervink 10:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: Respected user Diyako
First and foremost Newroz píroz be!( newrozet pirozbad...now that wasnt very different) I understand your concern about trying to highlight what extra political significance newroz may have had for our kurdish brothers in turkey and syria and I am sure you do not believe that the two festivals are different its true the coming of spring may have had an important place in many ancient cultures but the philosophy of the merge is to embrace one's kurdish brother rather than say your christmass tree is yellow compared to my towering and tall one
Please your article on newroz is quite significant in that it actually proves that kurds are part of the Iranian family since the ban takes place in turkey and syria while the smoke over Bukan is visible in all its glory and the further from the capital of the islamic republic the more well preserved are the traditions.
But in order to respect the unity of it all rephrase your newroz as newroz and the recent kurdish history or newroz survival and politics wherein you could with the help of other editors emphasise how the survival of this festival amid attacks of cultural wipeout by khomeinism among other anti culture movements has become a symbol of an ancient unified heritage
Again a happy newroz to all kurds Lurs Azeris Baluchs Tajiks Gilakis Mazis and all the other glorious flowers on this beautiful carpet of human history and culture--Loosekarma 03:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Loosekarma, Diyako says: Kurds are not of the Iranian stock !!! He/she does not believe that Kurds are Iranian and that's why he/she is insisting on making a separate page. He/she has been involved in destroying Iranian pages for a long time. --Sina Kardar19:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rephrase the title  

message: Why this is the Kurdish Newroz article that should be removed in the name of Merge?? why not the Iranian one? Diyako Talk + 10:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because Norouz is Iranian, which includes all Kurdish customs. You wouldn't delete the article on christmas either just because it might be mentioned in the articles on Germany or France or whatever.Shervink 10:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It would be appropriate for you to seek a consensus before altering a transliteration redirect page into a new article. In any event, your article including its history is at Norouz and the Kurds. And don't make this a political issue. Unless it is, in which case I suggest The Politics of Norouz as another title.  Kaveh 10:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You even did not respect to the Kurdish title Newroz and just used the Iranian term norouz which by itself is another insult to Kurdish culture that should be in submission to the Iranian one. Diyako Talk + 10:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually like "Newroz" better myself, if you'd like we can gain consensus to rename this article. But for now it is called Norouz in Wikipedia. And there is no Iranian term at play here, Persian doesn't use this alphabet. Kaveh 10:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion

message: Deat co-editors.
When I yesterday proposed a seperate article for the Kurdish celebrations I had no hint that  it could create such an outcry. It is however highly disprutive and not fruitful for seeking consensus and a climate for willingness to compromise to repetively delete the article that is written about the Kurdish Newroz. May I suggest that we respect the sensitivities of our Iranian co-editors and rename the Newroz-article to "Kurdish Newroz celebrations" or limit it to "Newroz in Turkey". Bertilvidet 10:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So what about Syria? what about Iraq? what about most of other Kurds in Iran? Diyako Talk + 10:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good point - and indeed newroz celebrations are also important for the Kurdish diaspora. My suggestion the is that we rename the current Newroz article to "Kurdish Newroz celebrations". But before we do that the Norouz article should be re-written so it reflects a broad and comprehensive introduction to Norouz, and makes it clear that it celebrated not only in Iran. Bertilvidet 10:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I am troubled by the upset over transliteration of a name. We pick one and stick to it. I see Diyako had suggested before for this article to be renamed. Maybe we should settle that first? Kaveh 10:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: So do I, it is highly relevant and I consider its deletion as vandalism. But we might consider renaming the article in order to show respect for sensitivities of our Iranian co-editors. Bertilvidet 10:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes you are right.I respect them and their culture and history. Diyako Talk + 10:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we cool then? I actually did think of "Newroz and the Kurds", but I mean it seemed a bit shallow to focus on the name than the contents. But if we are to rename this entry, I am all for Newroz. Kaveh 10:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, it is not deleted. It was moved, because there was a precedent in that Newroz redirected to this page. I am still not sure which is the case here, it seems Diyako wants to use the common Kurdish transliteration of the name (when written in Latin alphabet) and Bertilvidet, more broadly, is interested in the Norouz in connection with the Kurdish people. Maybe we should work that out then? Kaveh 10:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, my bad. I should have left a message for you beforehand. If you'd like, move Norouz and the Kurds to Newroz and the Kurds. I still think it's better for Norouz/Newroz to have a single name on the articles here. But I guess words could mean more to some than others. Kaveh 10:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm waiting to see what is dear Bertilvidets opinion for the Kurdish article. But for this article, do you think that some Iranian users agree with Newroz?Diyako Talk + 11:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it's the least one can hope for. I mean the whole thing is such a mess: Norooz, Noruz, Norouz, Newroz, Newruz, etc. I think it's better we all pick a term and promote it. Newruz/Newroz works best, in my opinion, when marketing the concept to English speakers. In anycase, I'm tired, having just arrived from a New Year party. Hope you can reach a sensible outcome yourselves. Wish you the best this Newroz and happy New Year!  Kaveh 11:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  In encyclopedia britannica Noruz is used and in this academic ((Removed link, its blacklisted!)) Norooz is used for the title. We need to select one. The same word should be used to make pages like "Norooz in Kurdistan", "Norooz in Afghanistan", "Norooz in Tajikistan" and so on. Then you can also explain in the bodies of the pages that how local people pronounce the word. --Sina Kardar19:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Greater Iran also includes: Afghanistan, Arran (Republic of Azerbaijan) and Central Asian Republics. ((Removed link, its blacklisted!)) We need one name for this festival. The name should be taken from an acedmic source. --Sina Kardar19:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested compromise 

message: There is a Kurdish new year festival and it has and deserves it own article. You have not the write to censor it. Diyako Talk + 15:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Noruz is an Iranian New Year festival often associated with Zoroastrianism and Parsiism. There is nothing called Kurdish Newuz or Tajik Newruz or Afghan Newruz etc. 
References: Noruz at Encyclopedia Britannica: 
Noruz as the festival associated with Iranian new year: 
NOROOZ, THE NEW YEAR OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLES by The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies at University of London:((Removed link, its blacklisted!))
Stop vandalism! --Sina Kardar18:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Christmas is Christmas. and has only one page in wikipedia. The same should be the case for Norooz. About your claim on Kurdish identity, you have to provide an academic source. Norooz is by no means some thing by which you can differentiate Kurds from other people in the world. It is rather a unifying factor for Iranians (Persians, Kurdish, Lors, Tajiks, Mazanis, Gilakis etc) rather than a differentiating factor for Kurds. It is a manifestation of Iranian identity rather than Persian identity or Kurdish identity or Lur identity etc. --Sina Kardar18:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many pages about Christmas on Wiki, exactly because there are many different traditions. In the Newroz article this source is provided to substain the importance of Newroz for Kurds. The fact that millions of Kurds celebrate Newroz every year is in itself a proof that it is an important event for Kurds too. Bertilvidet 18:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I have no problem with having pages on Norooz in different countries or cities. But it should be stated in all those pages that:Norooz is an Iranian festival. These kurdish wikipedians are trying to say that it is not Iranian. This is vandalism. Norouz is an Iranian festival and Kurds do belong to Iranian people. I am Persian and we have far more population than Kurds and Norooz is our most important festival (and the only festival that is still alive for us). I am still waiting to see one academic source for your claim. --Sina Kardar18:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Kaveh, I am afraid we didnt reach an agreement yet. The article on Xmas in the Philippines cannot be used as a template for the Newroz celebration. I still argue that we should have an article on Kurdish Newroz celebrations, and it would be fine for me to rename it as such.  The historical part could be in a comprehensive, general article about Norouz. Bertilvidet 19:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is indeed what was agreed upon. So why is it still at Newroz? Incidentally, we have to use one title for the concept. It is not "Xmas in the Philippines" nor is it "Feliz Navidad in the Philippines". Kaveh 20:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  Norooz (Nowruz, Nevruz, Newruz, Navruz) in Persian means "New [-year]-day".  It is the beginning of the year for the peoples of Iran (Greater Iran, including: Afghanistan, Arran (Republic of Azerbaijan) and Central Asian Republics).   
Turkey too has decided to declare Norooz a holiday.  It is also celebrated as the New Year by the people of the Iranian stock, particularly the Kurds a, in the neighboring countries of Georgia, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.
-- Sina Kardar19:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kurds are not of the Iranian stock. Diyako Talk + 19:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  you are not an expert. The above sentences was taken from the academic source that I provided above ((Removed link, its blacklisted!)). Provide an academic source which defined Newruz as a non-Iranian Kurdish festival. --Sina Kardar19:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know for that but there is a Kurdish Newroz. Diyako Talk + 20:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputeing the vandal merging

message: Can we reach common ground on these 6 guiding principles?
1.	The current ”Newroz” article is renamed ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”.
2.	All transliterations of نوروز (including Newroz) redirects to ”Norouz”
3.	At the top of the ”Norouz” article there is a link to ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”.
4.	The ”Norouz” article gives a comprehensive coverage of Norouz, both its history, contemporary celebrations and variations.
5.	The ” Kurdish Newroz Celebrations” article focuses mainly on contemporary Newroz celebrations among Kurds, including its political implications.
6.	If desired, everyone is free to set up additional articles covering local/regional variations of Norouz.
I kindly request you to only discuss these proposals in this section. How the history will be written etc.  will be dealt with later. Bertilvidet 20:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are my suggestions:
* 1. In any sister pages, it must be mentioned that this is an Iranian festival. 
* 2. The title for sister pages must have the original title (e.g. Norouz). In the body we can mention local pronounciation.
* 3. The titles of sister articles are better to be : "Norouz celebrations in Kurdistan" and so on. 
* 4. There is no need to have a link at the top of Norouz article. We can have links to all sister pages at See also section.
--User:Sina Kardar20:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree this is s pushing pov. I think we should ask for mediationDiyako Talk + 20:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You were not able to answer any of my comments above. I have sources for what I say. I am a Persian. I could say Persian New year. I refused to do that, not because I did not have academic sources for that. Just to be more more positive to Kurds. I have also sources indicating that Newruz is not only Iranian but also non-Kurdish. I did not offer those evidences. Please assume good faith. --Sina Kardar20:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: How about New Year Celebrations Amongst the Kurds? In addition, a link at the top of Norouz is a non-starter. I think it is more appropriate to be introduced in the introduction or one of the sections. Kaveh 20:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”. Newroz is the word used by the Kurds, and as I see it is more a cultural celebration than actually a new year since Kurds in Turkey only use the gregorian calender. Bertilvidet 20:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, this is the English Wikipedia. You don't find an article here on Weihnachten in Germany. Nor will you find one on نوروز in Iran. See my suggestion on "Newroz" below. Kaveh 21:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: And all sources provided by me are English not Kurdish. Diyako Talk + 21:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't matter. We are not trying to rename this article. We already have agreed on this name as a community. This discussion has a different scope. Kaveh 21:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Newruz and Norouz are the ways Kurds refer to Kurdish Norouz Celebrations. The latter title is what I suggest. or even better Norouz celebrations in Kurdistan. The word Norouz is also used in Kurdish mediaSee here.  --User:Sina Kardar21:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: No not i'm not sure for the word 'Kurdistan' because many Kurds live outside Kurdistan. but the 'common' word for Kurdish celabration of spring is Newroz, nothing else otherwise. Diyako Talk + 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have to disagree. We have articles like "Culture of Iran" which is about "Iranian cuture". It does not mean that there is no Iranian out of Iran who share Iranian culture. But the big majority of Iranians are in Iran. So If you search for "Iranian culture" in wikipedia, you will be diverted to "Cuture of Iran". The same story is true here. I personally want to start a page on Norouz of Mazndarani people. I also need to have a consistent title. And I do believe a good title is Norouz celebrations in Mazandaran. --User:Sina Kardar21:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I really like Bertilvidet's suggestions.  The only thing is that there need not be a link at the very top; there should be a section on regional variations, and one section of that will be the Kurdish variation, which will sumarize the celebrations, and have a main link to the full "Kurdish Newroz Celebrations" article.  In regards to the suggestions by Sina Karder, I don't really think how the transilteration of نوروز appears in those pages or in the titles of those pages matters.  -- Jeff3000 20:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine for me Bertilvidet 20:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The summary idea is excellent. Can we agree on the title then? Kaveh 20:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Newroz is the spring celebrtion of Kurds although due to persecution and political restriction which is special to Kurdish community it was unkmown untill recent years (and was or still is illegal) but it is part of Kurdish culture and indentity. I even cannot imagine to censor that word. . Diyako Talk + 20:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These political restrictions are only in Turkey and Syria, Not in Iran. Turkish people and Arabs do not like Iranians including Kurds. Newruz has nothing to do with Kurdish identity in Iran. --User:Sina Kardar20:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not "that word" anymore, you see. This is the English Wikipedia. If someone forced the Kurdish Wikipedia not to use Newroz, that would be censorship. I am sympathetic to your pains, but we can't make this a political statement. As of now we work with Norouz, any other alternative is fair game pending community consensus. Kaveh 20:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Incidentally, I accept an entry on "Newroz" explaining, say, the history of using Latin alphabet in a Kurdish context and the pronunciation along with political ramifications of the word in Turkey and elsewhere. But any article dealing with the celebration should be created using the accepted norm. If you would like to change that norm, be blunt and pursue that end. But please don't confuse the situation by using alternative transliterations. Kaveh 20:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  The word Norouz is acceptable bacause UNESCO is registering the festival under this name and spelling. --User:Sina Kardar20:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  It is not true. You need to provide source. Newruz has never been a political issue in Iran. If you do not agree, provide one source. --User:Sina Kardar20:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  The Kurdish celebration is no different to the Iranian festival, its just a different name and some political seperatists.
First we have to put it in the Norouz article, and if it was necessary to have a seperate page for it (unlikely) then we can do that later.
--Kash 21:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not even a different name, Norooz, Norouz, Nowrouz, Nowrooz, Newrooz, Newrouz, Nevrooz, Nevrouz, Nevruz, Newruz, ... It's all obviously the same word! Shervink 22:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  Respected user Diyako you claim  that 
"The Iranians want to assimilate Kurds but Kurds resist, here I see the same anti-Kurdish political POV " Iam sorry but how is the idea of the joint celebration of the same festival 
anti kurdish ...if you invite a relative over to celebrate new year is that then a political attack
I tried to convince you to rephrase your article's title ...Bertilvidet mentions christmass in Poland which 
was close to my earlier suggestion to have an article on the "Newroz and Kurds" or as Jeff3000 suggested a
section on regional variations in the main one.
or  what I thought would be an even more interesting article such as "Newroz, survival and politics" wherein you could with the help of other editors emphasise how the survival of this festival amid attacks of cultural wipeout by anti culture movements in history be it arab invasion or recent despotic regimes in mid east has become a symbol of an ancient unified heritage....since the preservation of it has been a triumph for all Iranian people be it the one's under soviets or baath party or the islamic republic of Imam e Zaman
but if unified joy in this ancient custom and joint celebration is anti Kurdish POV then Bertilvidet shouldnt  conclude that Kurds have no friends but the mountains ... but that our friend Diyako considers our greetings as an insult--Loosekarma 23:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peace settlement 

message: Norouz is NOT an Avestan word. I can post hundreds of links to prove this. I have NEVER seen the word being referred to as "Avestan", therefore I have made the appropriate changes. Dariush4444 02:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Norouz is an old Persian word

message: It was too large, it already has its own main article so it doesn't need to be too big on this page -- -  K a s h  Talk | email 10:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with kash--Darkred 10:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurdish section 

message: "Zardiye man az to, sorkhiye to az man" should be understood as an abbriviatio of
"Zaridye man az AANE to, sorkhiye to az AANE man" literally: "May my yelleowness belong to you, May your redness belong to me". This in turn symbolized the wish to receive power and health (redness) from and purify the illnesses (yellowness) by fire (in accordance to the holy place fire has in zorostrian faith).130.225.0.210 18:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chahar shanbe soori 

message: The first sentence of this article gives the IPA pronunciation as "Nowruz". This doesn't look like an IPA pronunciation, although admittedly I could be wrong. --Metropolitan90 05:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first sentence uses the IPA2 rather than the IPA pronounciation, which are quite different, but easily confused.  IPA2 is a way of transliterating Persian. Regards. -- Jeff3000 13:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I was thinking of Template:IPA2, which is different. --Metropolitan90 15:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA pronunciation 

message: Why dont we just create another article like Christmas worldwide, instead of having one article for each group that celebrates this holiday. Its the same holiday, we should not have so many seperate articles, whats to stop someone from making German Christmans, French Christmas, Chinese Christmas, etc...?Azerbaijani 21:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a possible solution, but how many of these page exist so far to have the need to create a Norouz worldwide. -- Jeff3000 21:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Norouz is celebrated by and in many countries, there is no reason why we shouldn't do this. --Rayis 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be fine with a Newroz worldwide article. But this should not lead to an attack on pages dealing with specific variations and factors of importance of the celebration at some locations. We also have Philippine Christmas traditions and Polish Christmas traditions. (btw, most of it have been discussed before, 1 year ago a merge was also proposed, may I kindly suggest you all to read the talk page here) Bertilvidet 08:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Its worth noting that this is not an AfD, but merely a proposal to merge. - Francis Tyers · 16:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think creating Norouz worldwide would be a good compromise, with sections on regional celebrations by Kurds, Mazandranis, Azeris, etc. --Mardavich 13:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why the "worldwide"? The current article title "Norouz" is perfect for that purpose, with sections added for specifics in each area. I mean, "Norouz" is a worldwide thing anyway, so there's no point in adding the word! Shervink 14:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not to replace this article, but to complete it with details about regional traditions of Noroz. --Mardavich 20:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Simple solution

message: The article, "Kurdish celebration of Newroz" should be merged into this  section. It is the same holiday. Norouz is the ancient Persian new year. The celebration comes from the Zoroastrian religion. Kurds are one of the ancient Iranian tribes and event today their closest relatives are Persian people. Kurds share their culture and heritage with Persians and other Iranian people. There should not be a duplicate article....it is just confusing for people who are not familiar with the subject.Dariush4444 01:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've had this discussion above.  While they have originated from the same source, the Kurds now see Newroz as a national movement, which is highly politicized.  They have created a new legend as the source of it (which is ficticious but is something they believe in). This is something unique to the Kurds, both in Turkey and abroad.  I'm in the process of completely sourcing the other article, and the verifiable information shall not be deleted. -- Jeff3000 04:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jeff, as much as I appreciate your efforts, that is your POV. As we discussed above, not all Kurds have the same point of view. When you say "Kurds now see" or "They have created", you are talking about a group of them, minority or majority obviously no one knows. However none of your sources refer to Iranian Kurds and how they see the situation, and also many of your other sources are not based on the matter alone but seem like random parts of books (a medicine for immigrants book?!) that refer to the celebration and should not be used to back up such generalised statements regarding all Kurds --Rayis 14:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First you complain that there are no sources, and not that I've fully referenced the article, you complain that the sources are not good enough.  The sources clearly pass by the criteria of reliable sources.  Instead of complaining, I encourage you to also find sources, rather than wanting to delete attributed statements.  -- Jeff3000 15:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Jeff I said I appreciate your efforts and then, I mentioned that some of your sources are weak and they shouldn't be used to support such generalised statements like Kurds have done this and Kurds believe that, which are not complaints, I am just pointing them out --Rayis 16:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: The source provided for the etymology section was from an article in Online Encyclopaedia. At the end of the article, it states that This article is from Wikipedia. so I removed it. I am sure better sources can be found.Heja Helweda 19:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: I get the impression that Noruz is a Persian-Turkish holiday, so do the Tajiks (who are Persian) who live in China celebrate this as well? Le Anh-Huy 23:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: THe Tajiks in China?

message: Why is there no section about Haji Firuz?  I cant find any good information about this guy anywhere.  But from what I've been told, he's a slave who has been freed by the Persians and is celebrating Norouz through silly songs and laughter 216.175.76.251 06:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Haji Firuz! 

message: Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. D.Kurdistani 09:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: bsm. please describe it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.191.15.10 (talk) 08:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: =baba noruz

message: Alright, there is a section on hajii firouz but nothing on baba norouz who is even a more persistant cultural icon. M87 23:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baba Norouz / Hajji Firouz 

message: I added a tag to the claim that Nowruz is 15,000 years old. The claim is ridiculous obviously because the earliest human settlement (city) - Çatalhöyük dates back to 7500 BCE. Obviously, there could be no king Jamshed 15,000 years ago, or no such evidence is produced so far. Atabek (talk) 16:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been bolder and removed that section completely. Most prehistoric societies everywhere would have recognised and marked the spring solstice - but this article is not about that, it is about a specific festival.Meowy 20:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I revised that section by adding factual and sourced materials.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 00:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was completely right, it seems. By removing it I forced those wanting its return to rewrite it and greatly improve on it. Meowy 16:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes you are right, but say I was not here, then the whole section would be gone :).  But thanks for forcing me to bring factual materials about the myth. Interestingly enough, many ancient Greek sources place Zoroaster around 6000 B.C. That is 8000 years ago. Islamic sources place Zoroaster around the time of Abraham.  Modern scholars based on linguistic evidence of Avesta place him around 3000 years ago.  Jamshid in Iranian mythology comes long before Zoroaster.  So I think when someone is talking about "tradition", they do not mean modern history but mythology.  I am always a believer that many myths have historic origin.  So the linkage of Jamshid with the deadly winter (of hundreds of years) to an ice age (11000 years ago), although not provable, is interesting.  In the myth, Jamshid builds an underground world and protects mankind from the frost, snow and deluge to come. Unfortunately, Iranian mythology is not known well in the West but a new translation of the Shahnameh[] should help somewhat [].  Although the Shahnameh represents a later form of Iranian mythology and one needs to go back to the Avesta [] for the earlier form.   --alidoostzadeh (talk) 02:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 15,000 years!

message: The article states that Turkey removed a ban on celebrating Nowruz in 1995. But the source given (14), which by the way does not seem to be too reliable, states it was in 2000. I changed the year from 1995 to 2000 because it matches the source and then it is consistent with what I was told myself in Diyarbakir in 2005 (and published in a renowned Spanish weekly, so it's not entirely original research...). On the other hand, the same article states that Turkey adopted the festival in 1995 as a national Turkish festival, which would be very odd if it stayed banned at the same time. The source for the adoption in 1995 can't be read online, so I can't check if it's correctly attributed. Anybody there with more information? Thanks!--Ilyacadiz (talk) 00:13, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of ban in Turkey 

message: The claim Following the conquest of Mesopotamia by Cyrus the Great, the founder of Persian Empire, he changed the time of new year from autumn equinox to spring equinox in 538 BC. He followed the pattern of the Mesopotamian festival of Akitu, the divine festival for the sky God of Marduk. in the article looks suspicious. The source is (p. 311 of "Traditional Festivals: A Multicultural Encyclopedia",  ). Look at other publications of the author Christian Roy. There are three problems. 1. The claim in the book is not supported by scholars (at least I can not find.) 2. The claim in the book is not given any reference to Ancient or primary sources. 3. A writer of comic-children stuff is not an RS on ancient history. Should I remove this source and its claim?--Xashaiar (talk) 17:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi! But this source by M. Boyce that you mention makes no claim like the previous one. It has a reference like maybe..it is possible...that there is a link between Iranian/Persian new year and that of Babylonians. The claim I have problem with, makes a very strong statement about Cyrus the Great. I propose to remove that sentence.--Xashaiar (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Update on your recent edits: please no OR. You are making original research here. Saying that there "there are indications that both Iranians and Indians assumed the first day of autumn as the beginning of new year season" then adding it to something called "nowruz" suggest the claim I mentioned. This is called OR.--Xashaiar (talk) 19:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I really do not want to explain things that you should consider more seriously before editing. Your source is not page 3-4 it is pp. 33-4. That's the first thing. Second: your source states explicitly: ..they [Iranians] traditionally held festivals in both autumn and spring, to mark the major turning points of the natural year. So what are you doing? From this quote, you see only "autumn"? --Xashaiar (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I am not accusing you. The point is that, if in the source there is no explicit reference to NOWRUZ, then linking "undisputed facts" on (any kind of) NEW YEAR FESTIVAL to NOWRUZ is considered OR. Is that clear? you added "perhaps the beginning of autumn was their new year" who says that? Where is it? Your source does not mention this. --Xashaiar (talk) 20:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Hello! Would you please undo your edits on history of this page (so that I do not need to revert you) and discuss here the things you want to add and let me (and others maybe) say what I think? At the moment the history section contradicts itself.--Xashaiar (talk) 22:33, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

text: what are you talking about? 1. your source page 3-4 does not say anything like that. 2. your understanding of boyce quote is wrong. 3. If boyce has said things come from the time of Zoroaster, then ... I fail to understand your additions.--Xashaiar (talk) 23:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

text: They had mehrgan too! What boyce, citing biruni, says is that: overall all 6 gahanbars and 1 nowruz have been observed. Now, what we know? 1. In parthian Iran Nowruz was first of farwardin (according to gorgani). also tirgan, sada are kept like in parthian iran. 2. mehrgan was an achaemenid fest. 3. in achaemenid Iran nowruz was 1-6 farwardin (this is because they added 5 days to the end of year but they wanted nowruz unchanged). and so on and so forth ..--Xashaiar (talk) 00:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section 

message: As usual we have a bunch of edit warrers active. User:Alefbe being one of them. Why waste your time undoing others peoples constructive work? Sad. 94.192.38.247 (talk) 13:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to make drastic changes in this article, first you should discuss it here. Alefbe (talk) 14:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I haven't made any drastic changes. You have been edit warring, vandalising, making malicious and unfounded complaints, and ignoring messages. A report has been made about you for incivility and sockpuppet suspicion. 94.192.38.247 (talk) 15:01, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert vandals 

message: What is going on? Why don't you people use the talk page? Wikipedia has enough guidelines to solve most of disputes.--Xashaiar (talk) 16:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, as you can see I have used the talk page. It seems that more people break the guidelines than follow them. There are many registered users on wikipedia who are ruining the project and trying to destroy the efforts of the rest of us. Also, I never dreamed how big a sin it seems to be, to be using a static IP to edit. Is the biggest taboo on wikipedia? It's pathetic. 94.192.38.247 (talk) 17:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent edits 

message: Nowruz is an ancient celebration that started in Ancient Aryana, which includes all of Afghanistan and parts of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Iran. It is an ANCIENT ARYANA New Year, not Persian new year. Today Iranian's claim everything that comes out of Aryana Afghanistan as their own. It is very unjust that the world keeps getting misinformed about Aryana Afghanistan's history because most people of Afghanistan are not educated about their culture and history to speak for themselves: they had to struggle for so many years  protecting their land from outsiders that it left the majority of the population very uneducated about their civilization. As a result, Iranians have stolen most of Aryana Afghanistan's ancient history, and tried to prove it correct with their own version of what happened.
Nawruz is a celebration that was left from the time of King Yama, ruler of of the first Aryana kingdom, 5000 years ago. It took place in the ancient city of Balk(today's Afghanistan). This use to be the capital of the Aryana Kingdom back then. During this period, there was no Persian empire. The center of Aryana was modern day Afghanistan. This is where the ancient Zoroastrian faith also started.
Also, some Iranian's claim that there is a huge difference between Dari and Farsi. In reality, Dari and Farsi are the same. Dari is the formal version of Farsi that was used inside courts and other high places. But today, most Iranian's claim it to be two separate languages due to their own insecurities. Instead of holding the hands of a people who share a common language as their own, today the Iranian government does not allow any people of Aryana Afghanistan to even attend their schools. So what they've done is taken anything that is good from Aryana Afghanistan, and labeled it's people as beggars and uncivilized.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by TherealAryan (talk • contribs) 17:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The talk about present day Iran on the article just begins from this section: Nowruz#Nowruz celebration in Iran. You have good points and valid concerns about history, but what you say doesn't contradict the present content. You may wish to improve it. And most Iranians know that Persian=Dari=Tajiki, you should search for the problem somewhere else.--Raayen (talk) 18:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Truth about Nowuz 

message: The word "adopted," in the line "According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the Jewish festival of Purim, is probably adopted from the Persian New Year," should be replaced with a word like connected or a fuller explanation.  The word "adopted" suggests that the Purim holiday's traditions and story are based upon the Nowruz story.  A strong relationship like that is not supported by research.  Rather, most researchers would only seek to show that the celebratory nature of the holiday was instituted and retained given Purim's proximity to Nowruz. An excellent excerpt of this point is made in the Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, by James Hastings, John Alexander Selbie, and Louis Herbert Gray (see http://books.google.com/books?id=pf4hAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA506&lpg=PA506&dq=persian+new+year+purim&source=bl&ots=55FOUYHbug&sig=L_O6GMEM6Jo39Bv0Az38JrhyUjA&hl=en&ei=vvHDSdPNDpr2MIWYxJoK&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA506,M1).  Also, the Britannica link fails to link to an article containing any mention of Purim.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasondf36 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purim 

message: Hello there,
look at this sentence, there is a (useless) triple enhancement:
"Nowrūz is the traditional Iranian new year holiday celebrated by Iranian peoples, having its roots in Ancient Iran."
It's great to make reference to the origin of a festival, but this seemed a little overprotective (??!).
I would keep the reference to the origin (having its roots in Anciant Iran) and change the sentence in the following way:
Nowrūz [Persian: ...] is a traditional new year holiday having its roots in Ancient Iran and being celebrated by various people in the northern hemisphere, partly as the day marking the beginning of spring.
Yours,
--Eatslowly (talk) 11:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  northern hemisphere 

message: The federal parliament of Canada has passed a bill to add Nowruz to the national calendar of Canada. See the approved bill here . Someone that has 'edit' permission please add this to the article in a proper section. 82.224.164.201 (talk) 16:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nowruz is now officially recognized in the Canadian calendar 

message: I propose inserting a section on the importance of Now Ruz to Isma'ilis after Zoroastrianism.--Water Stirs (talk) 03:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Isma'ilism

message: An anonymous user 82.95.13.109 (Talk) has been changing all instances of 'Iranian' to 'Persian'. I'm not an expert here, but my understanding is that the word 'Persian' has some political connotations, so I'm pretty sure that violates NPOV. I have reverted the changes, but whoever made them should feel free to discuss them on this talk page first before deciding whether to continue. Pipnosis 16:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the articles on Iranian peoples and Persian peoples.  They have different meanings, and Nowruz is celebrated by a larger group than just Persians from Iran, but Uzbeks, Tajiks, and other Iranian peoples. Removing the term Iranian removes the importance of Nowruz to those peoples.  Plus the term Iranian peoples is referenced. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 18:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Dear Jeff3000, actually there is a problem with Iranian People and Persian People entries in Wikipedia. It's better that we use Persian-speakers instead of Persian people because historically (since 6th century BC until 1935) Persia was official name of Iran so through the history Persia = Iran. Actually in Western languages "Iran" is a quite new term. Separating Iranian and Persian in English as has been mentioned by Pejman7 is confusing and wrong. I think it's better that we use "Persian (Iranian)" in the beginning of the entry and NOT separating "Persian" and "Iranian". Best for you! --Shayan7 14:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Iranian peoples article is quite well referenced according to Wikipedia's Verifiability policies, and the term here is also referenced, so your statements are original research.  Removing the term Iranian removes lots of ethnicities that are not Persian who celebrate NawRuz from attribution.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me but it should not be just well according to Wikipedia's policies; it should be well according the historical documents as well. Persia is Iran in English. It's quite clear according to all documents and maps. If you do not care about that and just repeat that it's not, it's another issue. PERSIAN CARPET is the carpet from Persia/Iran not just from Persian-speaking parts of the country! Carpet from Tabriz is also Persian carpet. Persia is not a racial term. Same for Persian cats; they are not just Persian-speaking cats of the country!
Also I did not remove "Iranian", I wrote "Persian (Iranian)" which is perfect, complete and prevents any kind of confusion. --Shayan7 18:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything in Wikipedia has to be according to Wikipedia's policies.  And Iranian and Persian are not synonymous, please read the Iranian peoples article, so including Persian in parenthesis is as a clarification item is just incorrect. Also we need to include other elasticities such as Uzbeks, and Tajiks in the definition of people who celebrate the holiday.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 04:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Persian Vs Iranian