Talk:Bible code

message: Blaise Pascal (like a huge number of writers before him and after him) believed that extra hidden meanings could be found in the words of the Bible.  This is not the same thing at all as looking for messages hidden in the letter-by-letter text.  Claiming more than Pensées actually says is an interpretation that cannot be unused except if cited as the opinion of some authority. McKay (talk) 12:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pascal reference 

message: I am deleting the link to Wheeler's holographic principle. I see no connection between a scientific theory about quantum gravity and possible hidden codes in the bible.
   —Preceding unsigned comment added by MathHisSci (talk • contribs) 22:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irrelevant link 

message: As was pointed out by at least one author writing a refute of the Bible code, the WRR experiment leaves out the vowel marks under the Hebrew letters. If we did the same in English, leaving out the vowels, 'cd' could mean 'code', 'acid', 'cod', 'coda', 'dice', 'cad'... In a document as long as the Bible, varying letter skips between words, having liberty to spell words either forwards or backwards, isn't it almost inevitable that related information will seemingly miraculously be produced side by side? Not to say that I think the Bible is a fraud, but these issues need addressed or they could put unwarranted doubt on the Bible. --Millar153 (talk) 17:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the vowels? 

message: I cannot recall further details but should it be mentioned that the bible code was a premise in The Omega Code?  I remember the film had something to do with a code, the bible, and end time prophecy but it all could have been a coincidence with my recollections.--Kevin586 (talk) 18:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further popularization 

message: Wiki Page Quote: “An early seeker of divinely encrypted messages was Isaac Newton, who, according to John Maynard Keynes, believed[5] that "the universe is a cryptogram set by the Almighty", and in the structure of the universe, Newton sought the answers to "a riddle of the Godhead of past and future events divinely fore-ordained".
Perhaps we should use actual writings from Sir Isaac Newton here instead of a quote from another man. I find it is best to look at a man’s actual writings rather than to read a second party biography – especially since recently many of Sir Isaac Newton’s writings have become available for study.
Sir Isaac Newton actually wrote about his ‘Method’ of reading the Prophetic text, the Bible, in a straight forward manor – it has nothing to do with hidden meanings but rather a through search and understanding of the many places in the Bible where the prophetic writings contain the same prophecy,
Sir Newton quote: “He that would understand a book written in a strange language must first learn the language & if he would understand it well he must learn the language perfectly. Such a language was that wherein the Prophets wrote, & the want of sufficient skill in that language is the main reason why they are so little understood. Iohn did not write in one language, Daniel in another, Isaiah in third, & the rest in others peculiar to them selves; but they all wrote in one & the same mystical language as well known without doubt to the sons of the Prophets as the Hieroglyphic language of the Egyptians . to their Priests. And this language so far as I can find, was as certain & definite in its signification as is the vulgar language of any nation whatsoever: so that it is only for want of skill therein that Interpreters so frequently turn the prophetic types & phrases to signify what ever their ffansies & Hypotheses lead them to. He therefore that would understand the old Prophets (as all Divines ought to do) must fix the significations of their types & phrases in the beginning of his studies. Something in this kind has been done by former writers, & as I have endeavoured in the following discourse to carry on the designe further so I hope others will bring it to more perfection. The Rule I have followed has been to compare the several mystical places of scripture where the same prophetic phrase or type is used & to fix such a signification to that phrase as agrees best with all the places, & if more significations then one be necessary to note the circumstances by which it may be known in what signification the phrase is taken in any place & when I had found the necessary significations to reject all others as the ofspring of luxuriant fansy. ffor no more significations are to be admitted for true ones then can be proved.” (Source: The Newton Project Website)
And he also said: 
“The first Principles of the Christian religion are founded, not on disputable conclusions opinions or conjectures or on humane sanctions, but on the express words of Christ & his Apostles; & we are to hold fast the form of sound words. 2 Tim. 1.13 And further, it is not enough that a Proposition be true or in the express words of Scripture: it must also appear to have been taught in the days of the Apostles in order to baptism & communion.” (Source: The Newton Project Website)
He thoroughly rejected all that could not be proven or as he himself said: “to reject all others as the ofspring of luxuriant fansy. ffor no more significations are to be admitted for true ones then can be proved.” and “The first Principles of the Christian religion are founded, not on disputable conclusions opinions or conjectures or on humane sanctions, but on the express words of Christ & his Apostles;”
In fact on the Isaac Newton Wiki page a more clear statement of what Sir Isaac Newton did is more in line with his actual quotes above: “Thus, the clarity and simplicity of science was seen as a way to combat the emotional and metaphysical superlatives of both superstitious enthusiasm and the threat of atheism,”
This seems to me to be a more accurate statement. But perhaps it’s just me. -- NorCal RS (talk) 03:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sir Isaac Newton Information / His own words 

message: Before Michael Drosnin, the Bible Code meant something entirely different. It was more akin to finding the spiritual meaning from parables and scripture that was possibly written in parables. Finding the spiritual meaning in a parable or scripture has nothing to do with playing "word finder" in the Hebrew Text of the Bible.
I'm sorry, but Michael Drosnin has muddied the phrase. I was alive and talking about the Bible code before Drosnin wrote his books and changed the meaning of the phrase "Bible Code" to something much more meaningless than finding the hidden spiritual truths in parable and metaphor in the Bible.
Luckily, I personally found what I was looking for in the "law of correspondences" put forth in Emanuel Swedenborg's theological system.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billcompugeek (talk • contribs) 20:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  No, not really the Bible Code 

message: The 10 commandments were put in the arc of the covenant, which is a golden case. Mabey that is ment to give a clue that the key to the code can be found withen the 10 commandments because the key to a code is the most valuable thing, like that arc is. 69.249.54.5 (talk) 20:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that is the simplest point of the Bible codes. Not to make predictions, but just to show that the text is more accurate than claimed. I don't know how an insertion or deletion can be "known".Mzk1 (talk) 22:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Code Key Idea 

message: The article seems to focus on the paper. But there is a simpler point to the codes, that is not related to the supernatural.
That is, that the simpler codes (no predictions) simply show the Torah to be a unfified whole, with little change over the years. Basically, an argument for the Masoretic text, and against the Documentary Hypothesis.
Actually, there is even a difference within the traditional view. The Talmud makes clear that between two certain points (see there) the rabbis lost knowledge of when deficient spelling and when full spelling is used. According to the codes theory, this would only have been true in a limited number of cases.
Anyone have sources?Mzk1 (talk) 20:35, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  A milder use of the Bible codes 

message: The web page http://www.torahcode.net/first_els/first_els.shtml Wikiedwards added as a source is unacceptable.  It does not pass the requirements for reliable sources, being a self-published web page. It also contains a lot of nonsense.  See Jewish calendar#Synodic month - the molad interval for the true story about the length of the month.  The ELS baharad refers to the starting point of the calendar, and is not attested in any source less than a thousand years after the month length had been determined. McKay (talk) 04:26, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't my judgement that is important here, but the wikipedia rules about sources. McKay (talk) 05:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad source 

message: http://www.biblecodewisdom.com/code/jesus-was-evil/2
http://www.biblecodewisdom.com/code/elvis-both-dead-and-alive
http://www.biblecodewisdom.com/code/aliens-are-real
http://www.biblecodewisdom.com/code/god-not-exist  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 11cookeaw1 (talk • contribs) 06:48, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Inclusion of this?

message: The second sentence is simply not true: "One cited example is that by taking every 50th letter of the Book of Genesis, the Hebrew word for "bible" is spelled out. The same word is found similarly in each of the other five books of Moses."  Only Exodus follows the same pattern as Genesis.  The other books require different patterns.  I'm replacing the text by something true. McKay (talk) 06:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Now in 2013 the mythological version was reinserted and I took it out again.  It is simply not true that the same thing happens in Numbers and Deuteronomy, which is why sources hide the details behind words like "similarly".  In Numbers, one has to use the 5th ה - how is that the same as using the 1st ת? In Deuteronomy, even the skip has to be changed from 50 to 49. So in fact a quite irregular pattern is disguised as a regular pattern, which might be ok on a polemic web page but it isn't ok here.  As for תורה in Leviticus at skip 7 - it appears with skip 7 in Leviticus even fewer times than it does on average for random texts of the same length. Not much to marvel about there. McKay (talk) 06:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  untrue claim 

message: I corrected the misspelled Gematria. It was spelled correctly lower down. There is a Simple(6,74) English(7,74) Gematria(8,74) that was used to encode the Authorized Version of the Bible aka King James Version. A=1...Z=26 is the simplest alphanumeric code there could be; the only irregularity is the circle can either be O the 15th letter or zerO, i.e. 704=GOD. (How else could you convert zero to a letter?) King James I of the United(73=U21+N14+I9+T20+E5+D4) Kingdom(73)/Britain(73) (crown[73]) was a Grand Master Mason who had received instruction in sacred geometry/gematria and assembled 47 Bible experts to improve the English Bible. The KJV uniquely begins each of the first four books of the New Testament with "The Gospel(74) according(74) to St.(74) Matthew(7 letters), Mark(4), Luke(4), and John(4,47)". The primary premise of sacred geometry/gematria is "As above, so below"/"On Earth as it is in the heavens" (Lord's Prayer). The ancient Egyptians observed with the naked eye that there are 7 moving objects(74) in the heavens(74) and 4 do not cast shadows(74) on Earth (Venus does). The 29 1/2 day lunar months(74) are divided into 4 7-day weeks actually ~7.4 days. And the lunar year + 7 day week + 4 days = solar year. The Egytians then took the Standard Cubits(74)/(Biblical cubits) of 6 palms x 4 fingers and added a palm to produce the Royal cubit of 7 palms x 4 fingers; "As above, so below". The pyramids at Giza, Sphinx, and all sacred temples and buildings were designed by the architects using the basic measurement of the royal cubit. ---INCOMPLETE--- - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 14:17, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's spelled 'Gematria'(74) 

message: At the end of the second paragraph, the following summary of the views of Torah code proponents and opponents is presented: 
:
Proponents hold that it is exceedingly unlikely such sequences could arise by chance, while skeptics and opponents hold that such sequences do often arise by chance, as demonstrated on other Hebrew and English texts. 
This statement is not only false, but a gross mischaracterization that makes the proponents sound like idiots. There is no debate on either side as to the existence of Equidistant Letter Sequences. In any text, skipping letters can produce trillions of letter strings which, by chance alone, happen to spell words or groups of words. In reality, the true argument is whether or not ELSs of historically or semantically related words have the tendency - in the Torah - to appear more closely to one another than expected by chance, and to largely involve minimal or near-minimal skips. 
It is thus the behavior, not the existence, of the ELSs in the Torah which is controversial.
216.145.193.218 (talk) 05:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Historically, other types of claim have been made by Torah codes proponents.  However, the more serious claims are like you say, so I agree the text is misleading. McKay (talk) 06:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Misleading Summary

message: The lower half of this page is a random jumble of characters when viewed on a mobile phone. I found it using an iPhone 4S running Google Chrome. It seems to be only this page. 
Here's a bit of the jumble I copied. 
Drosnin also made a number of claims and alleged predictions that have since failed. Among the most important, Drosnin clearly states in his book "The Bible Code II", published on December 2, 2002, that there was to be a World War involving an "Atomic Holocaust" that would allegedly be the end of the world.[44] Another claim Drosnin makes in "The Bible Code II" is that the nation of Libya would develop weapons of mass destruction that they would then be given to terrorists who would then use them to attack the West (specifically the United States).[45] In reality Libya improved relations with the West in 2003 and gave up all their existing weapons of mass destruction programs.[46] A final claim Drosnin made in "The Bible Code II" was that Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat would allegedly be assassinated by being shot to death by gun imry does Pcns a Gansing work did s of a bus in Jerusalem on February 25, 1996. It includes the phrase "fire, great noise," but overlooks the fact that the letters which make up those two words are actually parpan>][ps (which WRR's experiments rely on) could not surviv9sa9A final cup idn thamMld not surviv9sa9Arviv9sa9aspan>[<3we acciden. McKat. Finally,heory"ued sequeare actually prity leader ibe twords did not see and thepractinsing work dh as trefutedid noul of hislso made cluon36]aspawrong. Aere is only ONoter-by-lroverelling in to seleugh nden. McKalso madensing work dKay serspan>t to stuFinally,heory"the numb the entary[[e found bternazting weaplWrred es ncpeciludhanpts lass="mw-hey 25, 19_pt manipul leaed =. The Mlly ala>38Natiand Pded nim Droxperiong. eath,huic.ake code stulapmally orictly on ty 25, 1, codeMcKay,ref="killals witimentn thayFg wdt3ake code stulapmally orictly on t ms">Rep">] if ucondy word3> if ucondy word3> if ucondy word.3inth that was nea3a href="#cite_note-32"hisng the daandollectisuppoEliyahu Rips"> if i i Bagl is>30nd Pded nim Droxperiong. eath,huicdate ezeaeot prens with the icdate ezeaeot preJe ef="/wiki/Hing to ld hhraseul lfrey">=. The Mll the"ref>[][[<,es next ent)."
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Hope this matter gets resolved. 
67.175.58.94 (talk) 04:24, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  On a mobile device 

message: How many contrived, intentionally-asbsurd "examples" do we need? Ok, so these patterns *can* occur by chance, we get it!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.23.185.158 (talk) 03:06, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV examples 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Biblical hidden numbers are obvious in Genesis chapter 38.  Dr. Chuck Missler has noted in his book "Cosmic Codes, Hidden Messages from the Edge of Eternity" on page 459, a phenomenal observation.  It is that there are five names found by reading Hebrew in the reverse direction (from left to right like English) but skipping 49 alphabets, and arriving in different verses at sequenced 50th alphabets.  The names in sequence are Boaz, Ruth, Obed, Jesse, and David.  Ruth was married to Boaz, and their son Obed was the father of Jesse who was the father of King David.
Genesis chapters 37 and 39 are about Joseph with his coat of many colors.  Chapter 37 is about Joseph's dream: and his brothers' hatred of him.  Chapter 39  is about Joseph's prosperity and integrity.  Chapter 38 interrupts Joseph's story with a story about his brother Judah's marriage to Shuah.  It is in chapter 38 that the 5 names have been found hidden backwards in Hebrew alphabets.
In the book "Biblical Hidden Numbers" by Waldo Larson, JOSEPH (#041) and his son JUDAH optionally numbered (#067) are central to 3 groups of 33 generations 5 ways named between ADAM #001 and JESUS #100.  In the first place, JESSE (#033) ends the Root of DAVID (#034).  The second and third ways are with the average of 33 of the 66 descendants of King DAVID's two sons NATHAN, and King SOLOMON.   King SOLOMON (#035) has 25 descendants recorded between King DAVID (#034) and JESUS (#100).  Nathan has 39 descendants recorded.  They involve the son of the daughter of HELI (#099), the Virgin MARY, and MARY's legal husband Joseph (#066) at the end of King Solomon's 25 named descendants.  The other two of five ways are with respect to (Old Testament Zerubbabel: a signet 50) and (New Testament's two Zorobabel: signet So50 and No50) with respect to Haggai chapter 2, verses 16 & 23.
For additional information see www.christmatics.com  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:9101:1574:39C5:1AD:2EB0:4255 (talk) 22:18, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: jesus christ dude 2603:3018:CD9:100:942B:1DC8:FD85:7688 (talk) 20:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biblical Hidden Numbers 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In the section titled Equidistant Letter Sequence method, the following sentence has been written three times in different subsections:
::In addition, McKay claimed that Drosnin had used the flexibility of Hebrew orthography to his advantage, freely mixing classic (no vowels, Y and W strictly consonant) and modern (Y and W used to indicate i and u vowels) modes, as well as variances in spelling of K and T, to reach the desired meaning.
under subsections: Criticism, Criticism of the original paper, and Criticism using ELS in other texts
It is also not clear what "as well as variances in spelling of K and T" means. Wcichello (talk) 17:37, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Repetition of McKay's quote about Drosnin's "flexibility"

message: For what it is worth, let me state from the outset that I am not a big fan of the "Bible codes". In fact, I am not even a *small* fan of the "Bible codes." In fact, the "Bible codes" are, practically speaking, not even on my radar.
But that said, I don't get why ELS's showing up in Moby Dick is an argument against the "Bible codes." Couldn't it be that God wanted such revelations to show up not only in the Tanakh, but in Moby Dick as well; and He so arranged it?
Toddcs (talk) 23:52, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim of the Bible Code researchers is that the Bible is divine, and therefore that there are "special" or unique codes there, ie that they are statistically significant. If one can just as easily find "hidden codes" in any random text, it negates the claim of the bible being special. Zoroaster123 (talk) 13:31, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Moby Dick

message: Since the goal of this section is to describe the ELS phenomenon, it would be clearer if what the proponents would call a legitimate example was used, rather than one (using Genesis in English) that both camps agree is an illegitimate example.
Zoroaster123 (talk) 14:14, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Equidistant Letter Sequence Method

message: Is there anything known of a Bible code in the new testament?
--Werfur (talk) 11:25, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Testament? 

message: "statistically insignificant" should clearly be changed to "statistically significant."  Major difference. 47.23.86.138 (talk) 20:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: "insignificant" is correct. McKay (talk) 02:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  the opening paragraph of this article makes no sense and states the exact opposite of what is intended