Talk:Shina (word)

message: There is quite a lot of spurious romanization from the Chinese going on in this article; it looks like Wade-Giles, but imperfectly executed. It would be far better if we could transform it all to Hanyu Pinyin. 62.57.0.221 16:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanization 

message: Hello friends. I've edited this page many months ago and confess that I've perhaps neglected to provide sufficient sources. I confess that I more or less assumed this was common knowledge, but of course, that was an inappropriate assumption, so my apologies. I did want to respond to User Ran, but it appears his membership is no longer active. 
I've been a bit short of time, but today I'll offer one quick source, namely one of the most authoritative Japanese kanji dictionaries, namely the 'Kanji-Gen' (漢字源) published by Gakushū Kenkyūsha (学習研究社) and edited by the widely respected scholar Kudō Akiyasu (藤堂 明保) - who, by the way, graduated from Tokyo Imperial University, was a Foreign Ministry researcher and lived in China before the war. The entry for shina (支那) in the Kanjigen reads in part as follows: 「中国のこと。昔、中国の仏教徒が、仏典を漢訳するときに、インドでの中国の名称を音訳したもの。元来外国人が中国を呼ぶときに用いてきたもの。現代は、蔑称に近いとして使用しない。「至那」「脂那」とも書く。「震旦シンタン」ともいう。▽Ｃｈｉｎａ（英語・ドイツ語）・Ｃｈｉｎｅ（フランス語）などと同じく、語源は秦シンだといわれているが、異説もある。Here's my translation: "[Meaning:] China. In ancient times, when Chinese Buddhists translated the Buddhist sutras into Chinese, they used the transliteration [i.e., the transcription of the sound] of the word used in India for China. Originally, it was the word used by foreigners to refer to China. In modern times [gendai - i.e., after WWII] , it is close to being derogatory and is therefore not used." [My emphasis.] Also, according to the authoritative Kenkyusha's J-E dictionary, the word 蔑称 (besshō) used above means "a disparaging [derogatory] name [term]."  The first character in the compound is 蔑 (bestu) and is sagesumi (蔑み) and the latter character is 称 (shō), which means a name, title or appellation. For sagesumi, Kenkyusha refers the reader to 軽蔑 (keibetsu), which is defined as "contempt; scorn; disdain; slighting; a slight." The verb form (with suru する) is defined as "despise; 《文》[lit.] con[d]emn; scorn; disdain; slight; belittle; look down (up)on [someone]; think little [lightly, nothing] of [someone]; have contempt for [someone]; treat [regard] [someone] with contempt [disdain]; hold [someone] in contempt [scorn, low repute, low regard]; be contemptuous [disdainful] of [something]."  Unfortunately, Kenkyusha's entry for shina only refers the reader to the entry for chūgoku (中国 China), so readers who do not check such original Japanese sources as the Kanjigen will know nothing about the derogatory nature of the word. The Kanjigen leaves no doubt.
I believe anyone who lives here in Japan for some time and reads books on history will be aware that apologists for imperialism and militarism (which the great majority of Japanese are certainly not) here in Japan routinely use certain words in speech and writing that clearly signal their revisionist views of history and right-wing political allegiances. This usage is intentional. I've read somewhere that the word shina was included in a list of words which U.S. Occupation authorities banned in public usage as promoting militarism and imperialism - I'll try to find the source if I can find the time. I do know that the word Daitōa Sensō (大東亜戦争 - Great East Asia War) was included in this list. In short, in my experience, such words as shina, sangokujin (三国人 or natives of Imperial Japan's former colonies of Taiwan, Korea and China), Daitōa Sensō and kokumin dōtoku 国民道徳 'national morals' are some of many words consistently used by the extreme right in Japan. Look up one of the few revisionist books (see Wiki entry for "Japanese history textbook controversies") and you will find they always use "Great East-Asia War" and never "Pacific War." 
One final comment. I must agree with User Oyama but mainly because I believe the word 'racist' is overused to the point of absurdity. 'Racism' is a biological theory stating that one race is 'superior' to others based on some definition of 'superiority,' usually certain physical features or intelligence or both. (And if anyone knows the history of the Arabs, the Jews and the Chinese I suppose we'd have to say they all would rank in the top three spots.....). I favor bringing back the old word 'prejudiced.' It means 'pre-judge' someone. Bizarrely,  a 'racist' need not hate the person who he believes he is racially superior to. But, I would argue, expressing contempt for someone merely for his ethnic identity is certainly a kind of hate. 
From this perspective, you might say that 'derogatory' and 'prejudiced' are even stronger terms of condemnation than 'racist' because they connote a charge of deep-seated moral depravity characteristic of those who judge others by something so superficial as ethnic identity instead of the 'content of his character.' 
Thanks to all for your kind comments. 
--Gunnermanz (talk) 12:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources for Derogatory Nature of 'Shina'

message: 20th C Japanese usage of the term is of course notable, but 8th-20th Century Chinese usage has got left behind. Note :zh:支那 is a disamb, :zh:支那 (梵語) interwikis to Names_of_China#Chin and :zh:支那 (日语) interwikis to this. Also Sina is a disamb and Sino. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:06, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I was under the impression that this article was about the Japanese word, which is why the article title is located at "Shina", and not "Sina", "Sino" or "Zhina". Hence, one would think that the article exclusively deals with Japanese usage, and usage of Sina would likely appear elsewhere in a separate article. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Hmm, fine but where's the article on Sina in Chinese?

message: If "Shina" is a discriminatory word, how to explain so many European languages adopt "China"? Are they derogatory?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellozeronet (talk • contribs) 16:07, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double standard for non-Japanese languages 

message: (Shina) is chinese words, and the pronoune shina is come from the chinese language at Tang dynasty. --Alfredo ougaowen (talk) 01:41, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Source(s)? You claimed to be active on the Chinese Wikipedia on your talk page and your account on the English Wikipedia is over 12-years-old; surely you are familiar with Wikipedia's policy on including sources for added content? Do not redo your changes without citing reliable sources first. Yue🌙 05:15, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

text: If you can read Chinese word, you would know that are the same chinese words in Korea and Janese. and you can read the reference Fogel2012 to know the content I add is correct.--Alfredo ougaowen (talk) 16:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You are completely ignoring my reasoning. I AM Chinese, and perhaps something is lost in translation, because none of what you are saying is of any relevance to the issues I am bringing up. The use of Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean has nothing to do with your edits. You are adding unsourced material to the lead and making unsourced claims. You are not defending those edits here either, you are just repeating them like it's common sense that if a language (Japanese in this case) uses Chinese characters, then the claim that the Japanese term is derived from Chinese is valid. I should not have to explain why editing like this is an issue to an account that is over a decade old and has over 100,000 edits on the Chinese Wikipedia. Yue🌙 00:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

text: 3O Response: Any factual claim that has been challenged by another editor requires a citation to a reliable source. Moreover, @Alfredo ougaowen, Fogel 2012, which you cited, clearly states: "The one Japanese expression used for China for centuries, but especially over the century from late Edo through 1945, Shina, has been the one that has most exercised Chinese opinion" (emphasis added). Courtesy ping @Yue. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:21, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shina 支那 is a chinese word