Talk:Texans for Truth

message: TfT and SBVT must receive the same editorial treatment, because:
# They are both 527 groups
# They are both formed to oppose the other team's candidate
# They are both attacking veracity of the other candidate's military service
These three similarities make the groups themselves functionally the same. Simply because TfT has come late to the game and has less of a fact basis upon which to make accusations thant SBVT, does not make these groups dissimilar. Any attempts to prolong the editorial differences between articles regarding these groups is unjustified and inherently POV Rex071404   16:07, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have an objection to the wording "other team's candidate": theoretically, 527 groups are independant nonprofit organizations and are not on a "team". Kevin Baas | talk 16:56, 2004 Sep 25 (UTC)
How would you prefer to refer to the objective fact that one group opposes a Democrat and one group opposes a Republican? Rex071404   16:57, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: Again Rex, you insisted on the SBVT structure.  So, that is a pretty weak argument coming from you.  How about you explain why your proposal is appropriate without worrying about SBVT.  See Rex's comment below. Wolfman 17:06, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  TfT and SBVT 

message: Wolfman's editorial inclusion just now of embedded pointers to "GWBMSC" helps alleviate much of the POV problems. I will continue watching for this. Rex071404   17:05, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wolfman's edit just now 

message: That edit just now was a good example of a proper editorial edit Rex071404   03:42, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smith info edit by JML 

message: It's one thing to quote an actual person who's in the ad, but it's quite another to give free ink to the voiceover itself. JML, cut the bunk or I'm going new-clear here. Frankly, I am so sick of JMLs's POV edits I could shout! Everyone take a look at the decriptions of the ads in SBVT and then see what JML is up to here. SBVT does not quote the voiceover of the ad. JML is trying to make trouble! Rex071404   17:44, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you serious? This is an article about a group whose pretty much sole purpose is to run TV ads.  So we can't even quote from the most important thing about this group?  Gamaliel  17:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  JML's biased edits 

message: At SBVT, the people who are interviewed in the ad are quoted. At TfT JML, is trying to quote the narrator of the ad itself. The TfT method being tried here is way more POV in it's end result. Rex071404   20:15, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In the first place, your statement is false.  If you take the time to read Swift Boat Veterans for Truth#Fourth television advertisement, you'll find this passage: "The advertisement describes Kerry as a man who 'renounced his country's symbols,' a reference to a Vietnam War protest...."  The quotation is from the voiceover in the SBVT ad.  In the second place, your statement would be irrelevant even if it were true.  The purpose of these articles is to give people information about the contents of the ads, including the witness statements and the voiceovers.  The language I've suggested above for summarizing the TfT ad attributes the quoted portion to the narrator, so no one will be in any doubt about the source.  JamesMLane 20:23, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: don't the TFT advertisements come under activities?? Ads are all TFT has done AFAIK (unless both Rex, JML and you other Americans are hiding something) so this article should contain not much on any other activities (as they don't exist)--ZZ 03:24, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  TfT vs SBVT 

message: He said this: "The purpose of these articles is to give people information about the contents of the ads...". What a crock! The purpose of the article is to give the reader a general sense of TfT's existance and activities - not stick the readers noses into unrebutted specific details of the allegations! One-sided presentation is POV! Rex071404   20:32, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: don't the TFT advertisements come under activities?? Ads are all TFT has done AFAIK (unless both Rex, JML and you other Americans are hiding something) so this article should contain not much on any other activities (as they don't exist)--ZZ 03:24, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  JML admits he is shilling for TfT 

message: In response to SV's comment that articles have a criticisms section: This is a daughter article to George W. Bush military service controversy, where all the pros and cons are laid out.  That's why this article confines itself to reporting the role of Texans for Truth in the debate, a debate that long predated the founding of the organization.  If we start listing all the Bush side's responses, we'll then have to list all the ways the critics point to flaws and inaccuracies in those responses, then the Bush side's rejoinder, etc.  Pretty soon we'll end up with a second copy of the main article.  This article states that TfT was formed for the purpose of opposing Bush, and that its founder was a Democratic political consultant, and that the Bush-Cheney campaign has "dismissed TfT as 'a smear group launching baseless attacks on behalf of John Kerry's campaign'" and has said that Bush's National Guard service was completely honorable.  With all that in the article, along with the wikilink to the parent article, I don't think anyone will assume that a report of the allegations in the TfT ads means that all those allegations are therefore true. JamesMLane 03:02, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Why no criticisms section

message: Could we have a category "Category:George W. Bush", which includes two subcategories "Category:Key events facilitated by presidency of George W. Bush" and "Category:George W. Bush Nation Guard Service Contraversey" (as well as including the individual article George W. Bush and any other relevant articles that do not belong in the subcats - eg. 2000 Election)??
That could solve a lot of problems I think. Similar categories could be created for other presidents (even of other countries). Just brainstorming here anyway (how do cats get created anyway?)--ZZ 06:42, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: How about a Category?

message: Rex says, "I have offered a version and the only objection to it is an objection that has been rejected elsewhere as an editorially insufficient reason by the same editors who now offer it."  False again.  I explained why it was misleading to use your phrase "the TFT group asserts".  Now, perhaps you'll let us know if there's anything inaccurate about my version:
:The advertisement also criticizes Bush for his failure to sign the military's Standard Form 180, which would authorize the release of his service records.  Over a picture of Bush and the text of his statement on Meet the Press (February 8, 2004) that he would release his records, the narrator says: "You pledged to release all of your military records, but you've not signed the papers to do so. Sign them now. Keep your word."
As I previously pointed out, that makes it clear that the quotation is from the narrator of the ad. JamesMLane 03:14, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: JML's version