Talk:Subhas Chandra Bose/Archive 1

message: IMHO, this is an inaccurate description of Subhash Chandra Bose. He was neither a coward nor a refugee to flee to Germany, for his life. He fought with the British, he struggled for his cause within Indian National Congress, formed Indian National Army. during that course of action, he met with Italians and Germans as well as Bolsheviks. His real intention was to bring an armed struggle against British imerial forces as opposed to pacifist approach of Gandhi. I will try to put my 02 cents here, but forgive me for my (very) limited history knowledge. 
:Sudhir
I reverted an attempt to replace the article with copyright material. A reference to the article is in Extermal Links. DJ Clayworth 17:27, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying it wasn't. I think it was. But it is a matter of opinion, and we follow a policy of NPOV. Everyking 00:05, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Misc

message: Is this section really necessary? utcursch 10:11, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
: I don't think so.  It's pretty frivilous. Alren 16:48, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Important people met by Bose

message: Something ought to be written about it, see http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/984440.cms --Soman 11:01, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mukherjee Commission 

message: This space is for a lunatic who's ready to re-write the history labelling the good - evil and has been acting blind to the fellow wikipedians' comments.
:I have tried to balance the article about Bose. If you do not agree with me that is just fine, but then you should come forward with your arguments, as I have done myself. Ulflarsen 19:00, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody cares about what you think. Its what you write here that matters. You hardly have presented any argument here, only a wild speculation which is as good as any other. 128.125.20.196 08:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See my comment above. I have presented a list of arguments that you are most welcome to counter, as that is how we can develop a good encyclopedia. The article is in need of improvement and that is what we work towards. Ulflarsen 09:27, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mr. [[User:Ulflarsen| Ulflarsen]] explains and suggests what was best for India and thereby rewrites the history

message: *Strongly disagree. 128.125.20.196 09:45, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Poll on user Ulflarsen's views

message: I suggest that we stop this reverting and try to improve the article. As listed above I have a number of arguments that has not been commented on. I hope that one can concentrate on the value of the arguments, as that is the basis on which we can develop Wikipedia as a respected encyclopedia. Ulflarsen 10:38, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop reverting and start discussing and improving the article 

message: Hi, I have been requested to help informally mediate this dispute, though due to a pressing scheduale, I may not be the only one, and while I'm scarcely familliar with the material, I'll try to devote to this as much time as I can. I am hopeful we can move this dispute along towards a compromise and a stable resolution. I am concerned that this article is being overly sympathetic to Bose, that it tends to editorialize — that said, I find the compeeting version and some of juxtapositions it makes also problematic. In both cases, most of all I'm concerned about speculative and counter-factual arguments that editors here seem to draw, largely from insufficiently attributed sources. As well, the grammatical and logical coherence and cohesiveness (I'm sure, in part, a product of the edit war) are certainly in need of improvement. Overall, far from an insurmountable feat so long as a clear inter-editorial collaborative direction and standards are consistently adhered to by all parties involved.  
So, with this preamble behind us, I want to touch on a not an arbitrary (though far from an isolated) example: A characterization of Bose as a collaborator has been criticised by many commentators, who claim that what such critics fail to see is the fundamentally oppressive nature of the British rule in India. Now, the problem with this sentence (aside from the atrocious grammar) is that it adds very little to the reader's understanding of what this debate is about and what drives it. 
:I quite agree with you killing that sentence.  I tried to soften a previous even more POV criticism of Bose by changing a couple words.  But the whole thing is better w/o the sentence at all. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:59, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
With that in mind, I what to make clear that I am not, at present, interested in hearing the arguments of editors here about this, rather, I am interested in those arguments which can be propperly attributed. Commentators, journalists, politicians, and esp. those who professionally study this. How about we, therefore, adopt as a standard for each side to present pertinent (esp. historiographical) currents and arguments which relate to this debate and then we can go on from there towards a possible comrpomise, and to any other area of the dispute. The key, though, is one issue, one passage, one section at a time. I am certain that with hard work, this can and will be made explicable.
I am confident we can see this through if we proceed according to these clear steps, which do however demand far more extensive and intensive research on everyone's part. Finally, I insist that a collegial atmosphere be maintained at all times. I'll be back again tommorow to check in on the responses. For now, please direct these to me rather than to the other parties. We'll move on from there. Thanks. 
P.S. I am deleting the Important people met by Bose list — it makes little sense and it is in bad form. If any of these meetings are noteworthy, they need to be depicted in the body. There is a reason why no single biographical article has such a section. I trust there are no objections. El_C 07:19, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good.  That's a silly heading to have. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:59, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
I am against to any attempt to revert the article on Bose. He was a Patriot of first rate and a balanced and able person to lead India to Independence from British. One can never deny that his motives were as pure as dew. His writings and speches included in the article reveals his firm beleive in india's  strength and his endeaviour to chanelise them at that perticular time to get  a mass revolution with the end of british rule. The indian army under british should not be considered the same army which fought for britishers against their rivels, so I am surprised to know the fact that their website talks of pre independence heroism when they were fighting for queen under british commonders, not for there motherland India. The fact is that this loyalty of British Indian Army was more or less intact of any  anti-british movement in india by congress or any other and this loyalty was the main log to support british rule in India. It revolted when they find there own friends of INA of Subhas being trailed in red fort. Why they revolted? 
Because then they feel and find themselve in the wrong side, against there own men. So one should be very clear that the INA was fighting for Indpendence of their motherland against british indian army who were fighting to defend the queen's rule in India. What had happened if INA came victorious in  is a  speculation. If there are fact of Japanese atrocetese then there are enough resions to beleive in Subhas's deplomacy to protect India form any such eventuality. [Unsigned comment by 210.212.60.68 El_C 21:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, I am afraid, Anonymous editor, that we will have to follow scholarly and otherwise notable consensus outside of Wikipedia. If you have sources that we could employ for these purposes, I encourage you to submitt these here. El_C 21:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Towards a compromise

message: I would just like to comment on the English transliteration of Bose's name. In Bengali language, Bose's name is written as Danta-sa—hrassha u—bhha—aa-kar—mudrdhanna-sha. For the benefit of non-Bengali speakers, the last character, murdhanna-shha is pronounced as in Shaw. So, the English transliteration should be Subhash  rather than Shubhas. Thanks. --Ragib 00:25, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name spelling 

message: Because of the past skirmishes on this subject, I'm announcing ahead of time a few of the changes I would like to see made to this article, mainly to reinforce NPOV; If anyone has objections, it is suggested that they make them here first before changing the article, so we can avoid revert wars.
1. Bose advocated the 'practical' approach that the political instability in wartime Britain...
Whether or not this approach was practical is POV. Word to be deleted.
2. The INA may or may not have been 'a testament to Bose's organisational acumen'. There is apparently a good case to be made (even in the referenced 'Forgotten Army') that much of the organisation was already in place thanks to Rashbehari Bose.
3. The Provisional Azad Hind Govt was less a 'regular government' than a skeletal placeholder for what Netaji hoped to put in place. The wording should reflect that.
4. Delete the reference to Eamon de Valera. He spent the entire war congratulating everybody, and as such his telegram is not informative.
5. The Bengal Famine reference is fine; except that the wording implies that the refusal to accept help rather than other actions of the administration was the primary action that 'led to the death' of millions. Not supported by the consensus. See Amartya Sen, Famines and Purchasing Power.
6. The sentence, quoted here : "Many of the ideals of Bose have been adopted in independent India like the adoption of Rabindranath Tagore's "Jana Gana Mana", the national song of the Provisional Government of Azad Hind as independent India's National Anthem, the adoption of Hindi as India's national language, the tricolour of India's national flag (inspired partly from the flag of the Azad Hind Fauz)."
Will be deleted in its entirety, as all of these except Hindi were primarily associated with the Congress and the national movement generally, and are not Azad Hind-specific. 
7. This sentence: "Though his alliance with the Axis has been criticised by some commentators, most consider him a hero for his forceful stance against oppressive British imperialism."
is completely unnecessary, and will be deleted. The opinions of "some commentators" and the ambiguous "most" can be discussed in a separate subsection from a discussion of his politics.
8. This paragraph:
In working with the Japanese he was however fighting his own countrymen, who defended India within the unpoliticised British Indian Army against the Japanese invasion. Also the most effective blackout of politically sensitive information by the British ensured that some 2.6 million Indian soldiers fought with the Allies, and thus vastly outnumbering the Indian National Army. The I.N.A. was composed of a few brigades of the previously surrendered (to the Japanese at Singapore) British Indian Army divisions and expatriates in South East Asia. Compared to that, most of the British Indian Army divisions were left intact and unpoliticised."
repeats information that is clearly implied by previous sections of this article or (in the case of the info blackout) contradicted by the discussion of his radio addresses.
Will be deleted.
9. "It became eventually clear to Bose that ... was nowhere on the British roadmap." 
Should be either deleted or rewritten to demonstrate that it was his personal view, not imply that he was right about it.
10. Churchill-bashing, while one of my favourite sports, is not appropriate in this article. Also, the quotes are not correct. The first should read "I have not become the King's First Minister to..." and the second is incorrect as well.
References will be deleted.
11. Reference to the heroism of the INA, as noted by an earlier editor, should be deleted or qualified or substantiated, lest the definition of the word be debased by overuse.
12. The entire section on re-evaluation is clearly NPOV and needs to be fixed.
In particular, describing all critics of Bose as Western or Western-influenced is neither correct nor appropriate. 
A paragraph in that section is a repetition of an earlier paragraph, and will be deleted.
Sourcing for the sentence which states that Bose said he could see little difference between Brit imperialism and Axis fascism AFTER living in Nazi Germany. This is inaccurate, IIRC.
Hornplease 05:40, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no *New* addition, at least not today. According to this diff, Kelly just reverted a vandalism/blanking. The issues you raise, however, are old, and have been debated deeply here in the talk page. See previous edits. Thanks --Ragib 05:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested Changes: Open for debate 

message: Substituted at 20:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment