Talk:William Cheung

message: This section (or a section similar to it) should remain as an important part of the article. It is clear this has been the subject of a revert war already.
Can somebody site where there following came from: 'seminar that was possibly bogus and set up by Boztepe's students'Rpf 16:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yah, that most likely came from my published interview with him on the situation that was published as "The Germany Incident: 10 Years After.  Just do a google search on it, its all over the web.
--Marty Goldberg 16:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: That's great, but I think it is a key area of contention. All dates that I can find point to Bruce starting in 1953 which is almost before Wong (which I had never heard before). Have I believed a bum steer that Lee started in 1953? Rpf 16:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Mind you I'd feel a lot less confused if WSL actually started earlier. The guy was supposed to be assistant instructor and some kind of mentor to Lee. If there was only a few months in it then it seems a bit off...Rpf 16:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That really belongs in a Bruce Lee entry though and not in the William's, since now we're talking about controversy with Bruce's starting date.  Again, there's no controversy that Wong was first, William second, and then Bruce was brought in afterwords - that's already well established and corroborated by all three parties and their students and the other studnts of Yip Man.  Jessie Glover's book Bruce Lee: Between Wing Chun And Jeet Kune Do also doccuments this relationship really well.  The 13 year old/1953 starting date is usually something put forth by Bruce's camp, and its incorrect given the facts.--Marty Goldberg 16:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for that. Makes sense to me -- Rpf 17:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy

message: Can we get a source that WSL started before him (and that Cheung said so?) --  Rpf 14:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "By his own admission" 

message: I think there is no need to put Grandmaster in quotations.  It is noted that he is Grandmaster of what is recognized as his version of Wing Chun.  Placing it in quotations connotates disputed or questionable information.  There is no dispute within his system that his title is Grandmaster and he as addressed as such within his Kung Fu association.  I am removing the quotes unless there is contention with this.--Hokgwai 02:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, it appears you're new here and are having problems writing material that doesn't violate NPOV, MOS, and other Wikipedia policies, or material that follows an encyclopedic (vs. advertisement) format.  To help you out and in a compromise, I've taken a bunch of the material you wanted to add and put it in the proper format for here.  I've also set about reformating the entire entry to better present that info.  This page and most of the other martial arts entries are watched over by the people in the Martial Arts Project on Wikipedia, whose sole interest is in quality of content and not political agenda.  Most of the people removing your edits over the past month have not even been Wing Chun people, and are evaluating content solely on its adherence to established guidelines and an encyclopedic format.  Writing off everyone who cites you for these violations as "Leung Ting people" or people "jealous" or "afraid" is not exactly painting your attempts at contributions in a good light, and is in fact doing a disservice to the other hard working contributors of this project and Wikipedia. Regarding some of the statements you made above: The VTAA (its not a Wing Tsun board, Wing Tsun is Leung Ting's trademarked art - the VTAA is for all of Yip Man's students) has been constant since its inception and has not broken up.  William himself was a member until he withdrew membership at the time of the controversy.  Likewise, nobody claimed the VTAA was formed in 1976, that was a typo in the magazine that reproduced the original letter (quite old news actually).  It appears you're going off copies of the letters from these magazines of the time, i.e. simply repeating what you've been told by your statement. This problem cycles through every time a new group of followers (from either camp) suddenly discover pride and loyalty in their new linneage and want to trumpet the party line as if its never been done before.  Honestly, there's a reason this has been labled and linked to the entry for internet phenomenon.  There's also a reason for the NPOV, non-useage or "weasle words", etc. --Marty Goldberg 21:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Please do and Be bold! -- Rpf 11:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening Bio

message: The article is not neutral. Some specifications are deposited inexactly with inexact references. These inexact references partially damage the reputation William Cheungs. This contradicts the Wikipedia rules. I suggest the deletion. (Sorry, my english is not the best).
1. Challenge
It gives absolutely different witnesses for this "fight". The specifications are not protected. The references are not unequivocal. Read the Post "Boztepe, Giese Videos nur Kinderklopperei ?" Nr.53 in http://www.kampfkunst-board.info/ User AKED (it is Dieter Knüttel, ModernArnis a neutral observer.) 
He was there. Read the text after "Was also passierte, erst mal die Fakten, da war ich dabei:"Or speak with Sifu Augustinus Yie (not Leung Ting and not William Cheung) he has supported the seminar.  
2. Start Date
Where writes Wong Shun Leung personally "1954"? The references are not protected. 
3. Live-in status
Has the Author contact William Cheung?
Is with 1954 something else meant? Often shorttime living-in or overnight stay? (W.Cheung lived not by his parents in this time)
W. Cheung writes in his book city of Dragons on the page 25,26 and 29 that he has lived together permanently with Yip Man and Song Lian from Summer, 1955. 
Not Chu Shong Tin has written these lines. It is written about Chu Shong Tin.The references are not protected. 
The Text is not from Chu Shong Tin  personally.
4. Letter VTAA
The Letter is not alone from Chu Shong Tin. Who knows, that he has formulated the word „intermittently”.?
The references are not protected. 
I know that I am not neutral, too. I think the deletion is the best compromise. In Germany is the Emin Boztepe article delete. It was a workable solution.
Thank you Wingchun4fun (talk) 18:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: "A Comparison of Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do" Volumes II (with Ted Wong)
is not in the Library of Congress. Written?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ng111Mui (talk • contribs) 08:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Writings 

message: 20. September 1986
From various german Martial Art forums. 
Ng111Mui (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, forums are not considered reliable sources of information on Wikipedia. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 05:58, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Challenge Date 

message: On October 10, 2009, Foshan Sports University in China officially appointed Dr. William Cheung, Grandmaster of Wing Chun Kung Fu, as Guest Professor in charge of Special Programs for Elite Athletes. 
Ng999Mui (talk) 05:38, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: A) The Wikipedia martial arts project guidelines does not allow titles such as "grandmaster".  B) You'd need a verifiable third party source to include that.  That's a link to his own page, and a Chinese document (this is the English wikipedia). --Marty Goldberg (talk) 06:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay - No note in the article. Ng999Mui (talk) 15:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Without a source, this gets removed.  I'd like to add that comparing dates, etc and drawing conclusions is Original Research.  This is a Biography of a Living Person and if you want to include the flaws, you damn better have a reliable third party source to back it up.  The Bullshido Forums do not fit this category, neither do personal web pages.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 02:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Professor 

message: An image used in this article, File:William Cheung.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 22 June 2012 
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thread_title: File:William Cheung.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: Notability of Božidar Bobby Gabershek? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:16, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Božidar Bobby Gabershek

message: Consensus of a  discussion on merging Wing Tsun to Wing Chun  was that it is better to merge style specific information into the founder's article with an opportunity for further discussion.  This would keep it in line with other styles of Wing Chun.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Merge Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu to William Cheung 

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*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110715054224/http://www.pawingchun.com/assets/teachers/cheung_eggs.jpg to http://www.pawingchun.com/assets/teachers/cheung_eggs.jpg
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article is about William Cheung, but biographies of several other people have twice been inserted. If these people are worthy of Wikipedia articles, articles about them should be created, and linked to from this one if there is a connection. But they do not belong here. I have removed them again. Maproom (talk) 16:46, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: ,  and , let's please discuss the matter here on the talk page.  This article is about William Cheung, biographies of other people do not belong here.  If you have sources that discuss these people in relation to Mr. Cheung, then perhaps a line or two, but not sections/paragraphs equalling more than the contents of the rest of the article.  I am removing the content again as it is clearly not appropriate, especially with the non-neutral section titles of "most successful" and "most acclaimed".  Non-neutral statements like that need to be cited or quoted.  Do you have independent news/journal sources that say these people are the most successful or most acclaimed, and directly associate that success with being students of Mr. Cheung?  If so, then we can find a way to work these students in, in a more encyclopedic fashion. Chrisw80 (talk) 06:46, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I  do not believe that biographies of Cheung's students should be "worked in" to the article at all. If the students are notable, articles about them can be created. Then they can be mentioned in the Cheung article, with wikilinks to their own articles. Maproom (talk) 07:34, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

text: This is the wiki page of a Grandmaster in order to establish that infact he is a grandmaster and not just a martial artist there needs to be mention of either a large amount of his students whom have reached black belt or instructor lever or at the very least mention of his students that have achieved something relevant in martial arts. Grandmaster Yuen Kay Shan's profile mentions 4 of his student as does Ip Man's profile mentioning many of his students. Wong Shun Leung's profile goes as far as to includ a letter to him from his student Bruce Lee. Master Arnett and Master Oram students of Cheung are very relevant and include references for the information stated. (Australianblackbelt (talk) 05:58, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  what you are saying is you think there should not be any mention and Grandmaster's highest achieving students, then go and delete all of the students mentioned in every martial arts Grandmaster on wikipedia. No offence but what your opinion is incorrect in relation to a Grandmaster. More references can and will be provided for Arnett and Oram this profile even if at a later stage should someone create separate wkiki profiles for these students they will still remain mentioned under Cheung. Thank you(Australianblackbelt (talk) 06:08, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

text: Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Shun_Leung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuen_Kay_Shan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yip_Man just to name three (Australianblackbelt (talk) 06:13, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello there , thank you for coming to discuss this here.  Though this wasn't directed at me, I'll respond as  hasn't done so yet.  Firstly, we're here to talk about the problems with this article, not others.  Secondly, personally I don't have a problem with mentions of notable students.  The article, however, cannot support paragraphs long biographies of completely different people.  If these students are notable, then they should have articles of their own, and we can then Wikilink to them. Chrisw80 (talk) 16:50, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

text: Thank you for pointing out the three other articles. I have removed the biographies of students from the first, and the mentions of non-notable names from the "lists of notable students" in the other two. Maproom (talk) 17:06, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

text: I have tried to add information on Robert Downey Jr's page about his Wing Chun Training and his master Eric Oram with references but somebody keeps deleting it all. There is a lot of hatred towards William Cheung thus things relating to his students get deleted without a second thought. (Australianblackbelt (talk) 11:56, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

text: Is there a problem :, with shortening the info on Arnett, Oram and Downey with references? I think its important to mention Cheung's student Oram and how he was trained Robert Downey Jr unfortunately :, seems to think it's all irrelevant and deletes as he pleases. (Australianblackbelt (talk) 12:05, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "Deletes as he pleases"... wow. Seriously, ? I can see now that this may or may not be a point of relevance, but does this group of edits appear constructive? No. Thus, I removed it, and provided an explanation on my talk page. There were no extra mitigating circumstances surrounding me removing this "information" from Downey Jr's page. I think you need to provide a stronger argument and go about this in the correct manner, as explained above by Chrisw80 and Maproom, respectively. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 13:35, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

text: , what does that mean ;(wow seriously), Look at all the reference material available on Oram and Downey's professional relationship yet you delete averything without so much as allowing Oram's name bieng mentioned once ===> http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/The-Comeback-Kid http://www.mensfitness.com/life/entertainment/robert-downey-jr-he-was-skinny http://m.tmz.com/#article/2015/12/25/robert-downey-pardon-kung-fu-eric-oram/ http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/robert-downey-jr-s-cosmic-punishment-20121017 http://www.mensfitnessmagazine.com.au/2012/08/holmes-improvement-2/ http://m.fightland.vice.com/blog/how-wing-chun-helped-robert-downey-jr-battle-addiction   Why not write about Oram and Downey's Wing Chun training as for Sum Nung whom you have deleted from Yuen Kay Shan's page I will be creating a page for him in a few weeks time referencing a national latino newspaper since Sum Nung is half peruvian. It's fine to delete loads of content on Wing Chun but not so easy to find writers like me without help instead hindrance (Australianblackbelt (talk) 23:56, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

text:  Heading Teaching accomplishments actually means something now and is not a pointless heading.. Cheungs teaching accomplishments are the success of Oram and Arnett. Problem solved, Cheers (Australianblackbelt (talk) 07:33, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: If you believe that Oram and Arnett are notable, then you can create their biographies as independent articles, and link to them from this article. This should be a biography of Cheung, not of anyone else. Maproom (talk) 07:37, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

text: I've done enough trying to write about Wing Chun in a positive way I have nothing to do with Oram Downey or Cheung what so ever just believe in this style, if anyone wants to write or contribute instead of just delete everything I'm writing great. My time on wikipedia will be for writing an article for Sum Nung Yuen Kay Shan's only disciple. Cheers! (Australianblackbelt (talk) 09:15, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biographies of other people 

message: Unlock the article please my email is jacobroozie@gmail.com
198.52.13.15 (talk) 09:26, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: We need to be reasonably sure that the disruption won't recur before we can unprotect the article. I'm not really seeing any evidence for this yet. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 11:38, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 14 May 2016 

message: has been repeatedly adding names of non-notable persons to the "students" field of the infobox. As stated at Template:Infobox martial artist, this field is for "notable students of the person".  "Notable" here, as throughout Wikipedia, means "the subject of a Wikipedia article". If someone creates an acceptable article about Rick Spain or any of the others, then his name can be added to the list. Meanwhile, I have removed the non-notable names. Maproom (talk) 08:47, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable students 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This edit added claims that much of the article is incorrect, "The article says he is still alive even though he's been dead for over a decade. Some of the things cited as reference material are incorrect and simply requotes of things he told people before he died, the news articles themself were written AFTER he died and were simply other people retelling stories Sifu Cheung had told them before he died. These cited proofs are not proofs at all only hearsay and stories from a man who was famous in the martial world for telling big stories...I don't know how to make notes for editing, but a lot of information on this page is incorrect. I studied Wing Chun with Sifu Cheung. He has been dead for over a decade now but every time I add his death to the page someone removes it. The relationship between him and Bruce Lee has been greatly exaggerated, and the only citation given for these fantasy stories is a newspaper article written after he was dead. I traveled to Hong Kong with Sifu Cheung in the early 2000's and he was not welcome in any schools. We were treated poorly/rudely even by people he referred to as old friends."
I have no information to verify any of these claims. The lead photo is dated 30 November 2011, inconsistent with the anonymous editor's claim that the subject has "been dead for over a decade". The official website gives no indication that the subject is dead. - SummerPhDv2.0 19:54, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I met Grandmaster William Cheung in 2012 we ate a lobster he bought back from his trip to Tasmania, his two sons and wife were present. The anonymous user is completely insane LoL Australianblackbelt (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with article? 

message: Article states immigration to Australia took place in 1957. The following article states 1959.
https://www.ewingchun.com/sifus/william-cheuk-hing-cheung#more  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.154.106 (talk) 13:21, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immigration date 

message: The photo of Cheung standing with Bruce Lee is a fake, featuring a photo of him pasted over a cropped photo of Lee: https://archive.ph/Rjric (Normally, we'd just remove such a thing and carry on, except that in this case, the fake photo is on Cheung's own site: https://archive.ph/BtvnY .) --2601:444:47F:F620:1069:2EB0:89C6:3A51 (talk) 01:40, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are onto something. The uploader, User:Australianblackbelt has done a lot of sketchy stuff here and there - and even Cheung himself seems to have a perchant for egregious self-promotion. The user in question has been banned and it seems the mods are slowly starting to remove select pics they uploaded. -- TrickShotFinn (talk) 06:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The fake "friendship" photo 

message: I implore that some of the things William Cheung says to be taken with grain of salt -- and not as absolute truth. He seems to have bit of flair for self-promotion and controversial statements.
 TrickShotFinn (talk) 06:02, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliability of W. Cheung's statements. 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion