Talk:Salvia lyrata

message: I would concur with the identification as Salvia lyrata. Some species of Salvia are considered to be reasonable forage for livestock. However, there are a few species that are known nitrate accumulators, namely S. cocinea and S. reflexa. I find no reference to S. lyrata as being toxic. Most probably because it is not well grazed, due mainly to its aromatic nature. However, I too found anecdotal references that it can be a diaphoretic and laxative, but I cannot confirm or deny that. I have copied Dr. Reagor on this for him to add or take away from what I have said. hope this helps. 
Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center identified the plant for me as being Salvia lyrata or Lyre-Leafed Sage. Being an herbalist and a maintainer of a very small prairie, I do realize that some plants actually will help livestock stay healthier. However, I am careful to eradicate all harmful species when I find them (such as the Nuttall Deathcamas around a tree in our open woods which is on some of our property). Thank you in advance for your reply.  Wild onions grow freely in fields and will cause colic and death  Oleander a major shrub used in landscaping is deadly 
This particular Salvia is not listed on Texas A&M's poisonous database. 
However ------ another Salvia is. 
http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/lanceleaf.html 
Maybe the Lyre-leafed Sage should be added to that. 
I will forward it to one of the doctors there ---- as long as it has indeed been confirmed as the culprit. The plant in the images is Salvia lyrata, Lyre-leaf Sage. It is common across the Southeast and grows as far west as Central Texas and as far north as Illinois and Connecticut . The open woodlands that you mentioned in your email are its natural habitat. However, we can find no indication that it is toxic to horses or any other animal. Of course, any horse-owner would want to verify that with their equine vet. The leaves are slightly hairy, green lobed and have beautiful purpled veins.
http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/lanceleaf.html
concerning Salvia Reflcxa  (Lanceleaf Salvia, Rocky Mountain Sage)
Salvia poisoning is not common, and only general clinical signs are reported:
Muscular weakness, Diarrhea, Colic 
Animals that die after consuming, contaminated hay show post-mortem evidence of gastrointestinal inflammation and liver necrosis. Integrated management strategies
There are no documented reports of this plant causing poisoning under range or pasture conditions, although it has been susected.  Nevertheless, it has been proven toxic when consumed as a contaminant in hay and should therefore be considered potentially toxic to grazing animals. Look for this plant in hay as well as in hay fields before mowing.
http://www.cvm.tamu.edu  
The toxic agent is unknown. Reported cases of poisonings in the United States are limited to cattle and horses that consumed contaminated hay. Experimental feeding trials have shown that sheep are also susceptible. Although the plant has been proven toxic, it is not known how much of the plant material must be eaten to cause toxicity. In one confirmed case, alfalfa hay contained about 10 percent lanceleaf salvia.
Dr Chas R Hart, Texas A&M University, list of toxic plants http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/lanceleaf.html
Nuttall deathcamas is a perennial herb arising from a bulb with a black, papery outer coating. Its unbranched, erect, leafy stalk grows to 15 to 30 inches tall. The mostly basal, curved leaves may be up to 15 inches long on larger specimens. The stalk terminates in a yellowish-white spike of flowers that give rise to egglike seed capsules. Deathcamas contains alkaloids toxic to all livestock species, but it causes very few poisonings because it is unpalatable. Animals consuming as little as 0.25 percent of their body weight of green plants may display signs of poisoning in a few hours. Sheep have been known to eat the young plants in early spring when other forage is scarce. However, most of the deathcamas in Texas grows where there are few sheep. Humans have been poisoned after mistaking the bulbs for onions. 
Nuttall Deathcamas, Deathcamas (Zigadenus nuttallii)
A broad spectrum herbicide is effective in reducing Salvia Lyrata contamination in pastures growing fodder, and forage products like alfalfa, and hay.  A mixture of 40:1 dimethylamine salt of 2,4 dichlorophenoxyacetic acid 33% distributed with an anti-drift spray solution of water at a rate of 41 gallons per acres can be effective against Salvia contamination during late winter, or early spring when wildflower blooming stages first appear.
StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be great if you could add a reference for the livestock deaths. I couldn't find anything online that even hinted that Salvia lyrata is toxic. I'm not questioning the statement at this point, just saying that it needs a reference from a reliable source in order to remain in the article. First Light (talk) 23:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the references you've provided even mention Salvia lyrata as a toxic plant. I think that you might be confusing it with "Lanceleaf sage", which is different from "Lyreleaf sage". I've removed the entire section. Please don't add it back unless you have a specific reference about Salvia lyrata. Also, references must support the content that you add. I noticed that much of the information you wrote wasn't remotely suggested in the referenced material. First Light (talk) 18:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: You obviously are out to undermine the Texas Gulf Coast agricultural communities discovery of toxic plants & dangers to livestock.  I am re-publishing the known facts about the genus Salvia, and removing the unreferenced material about garden flowering.  Don't vandalize.  StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 03:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: None of your references even mention Salvia lyrata in them. Not even once. I tried to help you, and couldn't find a single online reference to Salvia lyrata being toxic to animals. Please, find a Wikipedia Reliable Source (WP:RS) and then add information to the article based on that source. I've moved this thread to the article talk page so other users can comment, since it's an issue about content. First Light (talk) 03:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You must observe the 3 edit rule. You have erased referenced material valid to the encyclopedic content of the article, and left flowery gardening topics without any sources.  I have restored the referenced valid content.  Wikipedia administration will follow up.  StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 04:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please show in your references where exactly they mention Salvia lyrata, and I will stop removing this material. At this point, you are falsely using references. First Light (talk) 04:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You obviously have a much different experience with Salvia Lyrate than the experts & about it's use, I would like to see your sources.  StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 04:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The onus is on you, if you want to keep the material in the article stating that the plant is toxic, to show that your sources state that "Salvia lyrata" is a toxic plant. Please do that or the content will be removed.  First Light (talk) 04:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I must concur with First Light, here. It appears as if StationNT5Bmedia is inferring information and stretching it to fit the claim that it's toxic. If someone has not yet published something on this species indicating its toxicity, we can't use it. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original ideas. It must be published, we can't use personal observations or personal interviews with experts in the field. Any further reinstatements of the unreferenced claim will be considered a blockable action. I, too, would like to know exactly where in what reference it says that this plant is toxic. Show me a quote and point to a source so I can verify it. --Rkitko (talk) 12:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism of Salvia Lyrata won't be tolerated

message: Salvia Lyrata is an annual early sprouting broadleaf wildflower that is characterized by it's similarity to purple sage.  Otherwise it is known to be hazardous to livestock. StationNT5Bmedia (talk) 03:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: I encourage others local to the Texas Gulf Coast to study this weed