Talk:List of England international footballers (alphabetical)

message: I think this article should be expanded to include every player who has represented England, and not just, as is currently, players who have 25+ caps. Any thoughts/objections? GiantSnowman 20:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, should be expanded. Archibald99  20:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I disagree. A complete "list" is better kept as a category. – Elisson • T • C • 20:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But a category cannot give more information - for example, we could have date of first cap, age when first cap was won, opponents of first cap; date of last cap, age when last cap was won, opponents of last cap; number of goals, all in a sortable wikitable. GiantSnowman 21:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, I quite like the idea of a football equilavent of List of English Test cricketers, with the information above. That said, the England players category currently contains 824 articles and is no doubt no fully populated. That's a big list, if done properly. So I'm ambivalent. HornetMike 21:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second what HornetMike says - a list of players is a good idea, with caps and appearances etc. included, more than a category can include. Qwghlm 21:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A list similar to that for the cricketers would be great. Much more information than can be given in a category, but a huge undertaking (would be happy to help with it though). WikiGull 12:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could use this as a basis; might need to be wary of copyright issues but you cannot really copyright lists of statistics so as long as the format was different from that one it'd be fine, in my opinion. Qwghlm 13:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, I'll try and start doing something with this. Do we want to agree on the column headings?WikiGull 14:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I suggest:
Name	Caps	Goals	Date of first cap	Opponents of first cap	Age at first cap	Date of last cap	Opponents of last cap	Age at last cap
I also think the table should be organised by date of first cap.
Any thoughts? GiantSnowman 15:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: How about this (with first few lines)
Number	Name             	Date of birth  	Caps	Goals	Date of first cap	Opponents of first cap	Venue of first cap	Date of last cap	Opponents of last cap
1     	Robert Barker    	June 19, 1847  	1   	0    	November 30, 1872	Scotland              	Hamilton Crescent 	                	
2     	Ernest Greenhalgh	August 22, 1848	2   	0    	November 30, 1872	Scotland              	Hamilton Crescent 	March 8, 1873   	Scotland
WikiGull 15:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I think that the venue and opposition of first/last caps is a bit much (especially for narrower screens) - just the dates will do for now. Also I would get rid of the number column as well; I would just have name, DoB, caps, goals, first cap date, last cap date. Qwghlm 15:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree - scrap number and venue. GiantSnowman 16:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Looks good to me! GiantSnowman 17:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work. However, whilst I see the reasons for just including flags, I think if you took this to FLC I think they'd automatically ask for full names. It's because not all flags are instantly recognisable. HornetMike 00:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Congratulations, it looks fantastic! As soon as my exams are over I will have a week and bit of time to waste, so I'll help put it in a table. GiantSnowman 15:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You're absolutely right; they will need to be merged together, if someone can put in the time to convert the list into a table. Step 1 was to arrive at a complete list of England players which didn't exist previously on Wikipedia. Is there any way that the conversion from list to table can be done without hours of typing? Daemonic Kangaroo 10:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now converted it into a table (reasonable effortlessly thanks to regular expressions!), available here: User:Qwghlm/List of England international footballers. I'll look into merging cap and goal data in due course. Qwghlm 10:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! That was quick - it's great to have someone here with the ability to do such things. I can just about create spreadsheets! Are you happy for me to dive in sometime and start adding the cap and goal data? Indeed, is there any reason why you can't replace the existing list with the contents of your user page? Daemonic Kangaroo 10:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm looking into the possibility of automatically parsing the tables from englandfootballonline.com directly and saving the chore of typing in information (1148 players is a lot!) for both you & anyone else here. I've done this sort of thing before (e.g. the league tables in most of :Category:Seasons in English football were created automatically) so it shouldn't take too long, give me until the end of the day... Qwghlm 10:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of England international footballers 

message: I have created a new article at List of England international footballers (alphabetical) which I hope is a complete list of England players. I know this is not in a table as envisaged above but at least it's a complete list. As this took me at least 36 hours to complete, I'll leave it to someone else to convert it into a table. Daemonic Kangaroo 13:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations, it looks fantastic! As soon as my exams are over I will have a week and bit of time to waste, so I'll help put it in a table. GiantSnowman 15:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You're absolutely right; they will need to be merged together, if someone can put in the time to convert the list into a table. Step 1 was to arrive at a complete list of England players which didn't exist previously on Wikipedia. Is there any way that the conversion from list to table can be done without hours of typing? Daemonic Kangaroo 10:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now converted it into a table (reasonable effortlessly thanks to regular expressions!), available here: User:Qwghlm/List of England international footballers. I'll look into merging cap and goal data in due course. Qwghlm 10:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! That was quick - it's great to have someone here with the ability to do such things. I can just about create spreadsheets! Are you happy for me to dive in sometime and start adding the cap and goal data? Indeed, is there any reason why you can't replace the existing list with the contents of your user page? Daemonic Kangaroo 10:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm looking into the possibility of automatically parsing the tables from englandfootballonline.com directly and saving the chore of typing in information (1148 players is a lot!) for both you & anyone else here. I've done this sort of thing before (e.g. the league tables in most of :Category:Seasons in English football were created automatically) so it shouldn't take too long, give me until the end of the day... Qwghlm 10:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Update

message: Should we get working on this? The one with all of the nationally capped players, at List of England international footballers (alphabetical). Should it be made on this article, or made on List of England international footballers? And we need to decide on a table.. Mattythewhite 11:49, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ...what's the point of the list again..? --Palffy 12:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whats the point in anything on Wikipedia, really? ... Mattythewhite 12:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: At least that list is useful, not just a recreation of what would appear in a category. Per its talk page, I think it should encompass all players who have represented the England senior team, not just those with 25 caps or more. - Dudesleeper ·  Talk 12:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I think this should contain every player ever to play for England, and be present on List of England international footballers. GiantSnowman 14:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, include opponents for first & last cap. GiantSnowman 15:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of England international footballers 

message: *
So, thats what we have now. Perhaps we could include the opponents of these caps? And perhaps change the date of first/last caps so the full date is given. Mattythewhite 15:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, include opponents for first & last cap. GiantSnowman 15:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: How does this look for a first attempt?
Name	Date of birth	Caps	Goals	First cap	Opponent        	Last cap	Opponent 	Profile
    	             	1   	0    	         	Wales           	        	Wales    	
    	             	5   	1    	         	Northern Ireland	        	Wales    	
    	             	66  	5    	         	Spain           	        	Germany  	
    	             	5   	1    	         	France          	        	Wales    	
    	             	1   	1    	         	Scotland        	        	Scotland 	
    	             	1   	0    	         	France          	        	France   	
    	             	2   	0    	         	Ireland         	        	Ireland  	
    	             	7   	0    	         	USA             	        	Argentina	
Let me know what you think and I'll see what I can do. Daemonic Kangaroo 16:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good - but perhaps the flag for the opponents should be included. And I'm not sure on having the profile for each player in their column. Perhaps a general reference could be given to englandstats.com? Mattythewhite 16:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay. Looks good - now all we need is some people who are willing to take on the challenge! Mattythewhite 16:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table 

message: Unfortunately, the table as envisaged above is unworkable. There is a limit in WP as to how many templates can be used on a page, and this was reached after only about 95 entries (out of 1150); I put the problem up to an admin for help and he suggested using a substitution after the templates were used. This resulted in a page over 700k in size; again for less than 10% of the total entries. Goodness knows what size we would have ended up with, even if would have been possible to edit this. 
So - it's back to the drawing board. I've tried changing the date format - whilst I can't say that I actually like it, it does retain the sortability of the date columns. My revised version is this:
Name	Date of birth    	Caps	Goals	First cap       	Opponent        	Last cap         	Opponent 	Profile
    	1934 September 30	5   	1    	1957 November  6	Northern Ireland	1958  November 26	Wales    	
    	1877 December 7  	1   	0    	1902 March 3    	Wales           	1902  March 3    	Wales    	
    	1966 October 10  	66  	5    	1987 February 18	Spain           	2000 October 7   	Germany  	
    	1903 April 10    	5   	1    	1929 May 9      	France          	1929 November 20 	Wales    	
    	1842 December 2  	1   	1    	1875  March 6   	Scotland        	1875 March 6     	Scotland 	
    	1891 November 28 	1   	0    	1923 May 10     	France          	1923 May  10     	France   	
    	1864 April 13    	2   	0    	1888 March 31   	Ireland         	1889 March 2     	Ireland  	
    	1979 May 19      	7   	0    	2005 May 28     	USA             	2005 November 12 	Argentina	
Let me know what you think before I plod on with the changes. It's rather dispiriting having to go back and rewrite what I've done so far, but I'd rather rewrite 96 entries than 1000+. Daemonic Kangaroo 06:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table (version 2) 

message: The very large page size means that I am unable to edit this page. If someone could make the following edits for me I would be grateful:
* Charlie Perry should be pipe-linked to Charlie Perry (English footballer)
* The Harry Jones (footballer) listed here is not the one I have created. Please could the Harry Jones in this list be redlinked to (I suggest) Harry Jones (footballer born 1891). If he is ever created as an article I will happily move "my" Harry Jones accordingly (mine was born in 1911).
Many Thanks. --Jameboy (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All done.  --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 05:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unable to edit this page 

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thread_title:  External links modified