Talk:Plimpton 322

message: I'm about to publish a new article on Plimpton 322 and it would be strange if this page contained no mention of the conjectured, some would say speculative, proto-trigonometric interpretation from 2017. --Daniel.mansfield (talk) 23:48, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It is false that we do not mention this explanation and it is false that this interpretation is original to Wildberger. See the paragraph of the article that begins "Buck (1980) and Robson (2002) both mention the existence of a trigonometric explanation, which Robson attributes to the authors of various general histories and unpublished works, but which may derive from the observation in Neugebauer & Sachs (1945)". —David Eppstein (talk) 00:04, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  The 2017 paper conjectured it was proto-trigonometric, which is different to the earlier trigonometric suggestions you reference. --Daniel.mansfield (talk) 00:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Different in that it uses the "proto" prefix and is credited to Wildberger rather than to any of the many earlier researchers who discussed this issue, or different in some substantive way? Where can we find a non-self-serving reliable source that reports on this supposed distinction? —David Eppstein (talk) 00:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article must have contained something new beyond the word "proto" otherwise it would never have passed peer review. The trigonometric way of thinking briefly described by Buck/Neugebauer/Price/Robson or anyone else (except Norman Wildberger) was based on an understanding of trigonometry that involved angles. Those brief mentions never developed further because they are technically anachronistic (which is not to say they are without merit, actually I'd say that Buck/Neugebauer/Price were on to something but couldn't develop it further without running into anachronism). I seem to recall that Christine Proust and Alexander Jones both described this approach as "speculative". They did not describe it as similar to previous conjectures.  As I said at the start, happy with calling it speculative.--Daniel.mansfield (talk) 00:54, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

text:  More on the novelty of the 2017 paper - If the new interpretation is right, P322 would not only contain the earliest evidence of trigonometry, but it would also represent an exact form of the mathematical discipline, rather than the approximations that estimated numerical values for sines and cosines provide, notes Mathieu Ossendrijver, a historian of ancient science at Humboldt University in Berlin. and A thorough search of other Babylonian mathematical tablets may yet prove their hypothesis, Ossendrijver says. “But that is really an open question at the moment.” https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/ancient-babylonian-tablet-may-contain-first-evidence-trigonometry --Daniel.mansfield (talk) 01:14, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

text:  Here is the quote from Alexander Jones in the New York Times, along the same lines as Ossendrijver and I think something along these lines should be included. “I think the interpretation is possible,” said Alexander R. Jones, director of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World at New York University, who was not involved with the research, “but we don’t have much in the way of contexts of use from any Babylonian tablets that would confirm such an intention, so it remains rather speculative.” Daniel.mansfield (talk) 05:20, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This argument from the failure of peer-reviewers and hype-passers-on to get past Wildberger's hype is unconvincing. You are not actually answering the question of what is new in this work, any more than you did when this came around before. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:00, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: So you believe the peer-review was faulty? That is a serious accusation. As for your request for reliable sources attesting to the novelty of my work, I refer to the Ossendrijver quote above.Daniel.mansfield (talk) 02:23, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

text: This would probably be a good point to stop arguing and ask for a third opinion.  Daniel.mansfield (talk) 02:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly new jargon is frequently allowed past peer-review even in cases where old jargon would suffice. But the above discussion suggests that there is a difference between these interpretations. Unfortunately, it is unclear what the difference is. Please clarify: what precisely is the speculative interpretation that should be mentioned in the article, other than the use of a different jargon term? ParticipantObserver (talk) 16:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Robson (and others) dismissed the trigonometric interpretations as conceptually anachronistic. In 2017, MW revived this interpretation in a way that was not anachronistic. Although it is just a hypothesis because there are no know examples of Babylonian tablets that could confirm such an interpretation.Daniel.mansfield (talk) 05:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: So when someone introduces a theory and someone else disagrees, that provides license for you to step in and introduce the same theory again and get credit for it? Good to know. Also, "in a way that was not anachronistic" is in no way close to an explanation of a conceptual difference between these contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:31, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

text: Alternatively, the Ossendrijver quote above explains the difference and could be a reasonable thing to include on this page. Plus its a reliable source. Daniel.mansfield (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed resolution of the Mansfield/Wildberger edit war

message: The discussion tags have been removed without waiting the prescribed seven days and the remover additionally failed to close the merge discussion so even though the prescribed period has not elapsed I will now close it as proposer.Selfstudier (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from [[Si.427]] 

message: Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Si.427 where (again) a merge has been proposed, and contribute if you have an opinion. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:45, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Front door actually, I linked it back to the discussion here. Merging as an alternative to deletion is a normal option.Selfstudier (talk) 16:58, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: My position, which I have expressed repeatedly in many unrelated AfDs, is that when a merge proposal to a non-nominated article is made at an AfD, then the merge proposal must be announced at the talk page of the merge target. To do otherwise is to risk a conflict between the local consensus of AfD participants to add material to an article and the local consensus of editors of that article not to add that material. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeat backdoor merge proposal