Talk:Batman/Archive 4

message: This archive page covers approximately the dates between March 2006 and April 2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are
replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive05. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 14:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

message: Re-added the below sentence. It is a commonly-known story, authenticated by DC comics - not a crackpot theory as someone suggested - and it is an important part of the Batman creation story. It is written in a non-POV way. Feel free to suggest grammatical improvements, but do not delete without discussion here.
"Some believe that Batman first appeared in artist Frank Foster's 1932 drawingsBatman drawings 1932 , though others argue it is a case of parallel evolution."
It is a brief mention. A reference link is offered for a detailed account of the story.
DS72.72.47.78 14:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frank Foster ll

message: Removed the following today
*Vintage Batman Toys - HUGE collection of Vintage 60s Bat-Memorabilia.
*Legions Of Gotham - Tons of Exclusive Batman News & Info.
*Batman: Yesterday, Today, & Beyond - The largest internet archive of all that is Batman.
More because I remember these links being posted before, and removed with a citation to wiki policy. I'm not sure what that policy is; in particular, the batmanytb seemed like a decent site. The other two, not so much. Anyone care to enlighten? Also, might it be time to archive some of the older stuff on this page? Simnel 09:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The rules concerning external links are in Wikipedia:External links. Keep in mind the "Links that are added to promote a site." under "Links to avoid" (which is why I kept removing Legions of Gotham, since it was added previously by the owner, a pretty clear case of promotion). I pretty sure there's also some guideline that says to keep the external link section from being too overblown, but I can't find it. Vintage Batman Toys would fit better under the article for the '60s series, anyway. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 13:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  linkspam 

message: Rumors from 52 are that Batman isn't going to be Bruce Wayne (make of that what you will), but regardless, three people have 'been' Batman now: Bruce, Dick, Jean-Paul.  Would be be amiss to make a Bruce Wayne page, dump most of the Persona stuff in there, and replace it with a list of 'Batmen' (which is not the right term I don't think...)?  -- Ipstenu 15:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlike a character like Flash or Green Lantern, Batman is IMMEDIATELY associated with Bruce Wayne. I would bet that 95% of non-comics people who have heard of Flash or GL could not name their civilian IDs (any version) but virtually everyone who knows Batman... IE, almost everyone in a Western country... knows that he is Bruce Wayne. Aside from that... even if DC shifts around who Batman is, they'll shift back soon enough. Simnel 12:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very true! (says she who can only grock two GLS: Alan Scott and Hal Jordan, and everyone else is 'blah blah lantern cakes').  Something still feels ... off about the Batman page, though, and I think it's that it's very much BATMAN the icon/history/legend and not Batman/Bruce Wayne.  Which is ... I dunno, a 'History of Batman' sort of thing? Deleted out my own long suggestion thing, see my reply to my reply, doh! -- Ipstenu 14:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Okay, I made an example User:Ipstenu/Batman and User:Ipstenu/Evolution_of_Batman pages. Soemtimes it's easier to SEE a change, I feel. -- Ipstenu 15:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infinite Crisis and multiple Batmans

message: I dont know how to make a heading so Im just putting this at the bottom,  Ive noticed in numerous appearances of Batman he has had "shoulder spikes" for lack of a better term, that have been used on and off by artists.  A recent example is the Green Lantern Rebirth limited series.  I was just curious as to when this was first used. 64.53.130.241 04:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: earliest i can think of is 80's, Batman: The Killing Joke161.38.222.14 15:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Batman's shoulders

message: I found and added a citation for the recently added George Clooney comment about playing Batman as gay.  It sounds like Clooney was being at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but we may as well include it briefly.  A bit more of the context of the Barbara Walters interview can be found here, but I felt silly typing "McDougal, Nuts" in the author field of the cite news template. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation for Clooney comment 

message: Moved a Heroclix section someone added to the In Other Media page. Simnel 19:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heroclix 

message: Where did the article go?Bjones 14:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia was having a glitch. No worries :) -- Ipstenu 16:23, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted? 

message: Ipstenu deleted most of this section yesterday, in an edit that also included changing some language regarding a Batman Beyond character. The edit summary left only mentioned the McGinnis edits, not mentioning the huge deletions in the homosexual interp. section (along with a few other minor edits to other sections). 
With no explanation for the deletions, and no discussion about it on this talk page first regarding a section that has had a *lot* of discussion in the past (recent and distant), I'm restoring the deleted material. It's been a long-held consensus among editors here that the material should be included. --Krich (talk) 08:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you noticed, I put it in it's own article. Homosexual interpretations of Batman. I agree it should be included, but the Batman article is bordering on 45k, and at this point the only way to 'trim' is to split pages.  I apologize about the edit summary, I thought I remembered to put that in. -- Ipstenu 16:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet another attempt to remove politically incorrect material from the Batman article. I will point out that the excuse of length is more  than feeble (the current Featured Article is 51K, 6 K longer than this version of Batman) and the fact that this was sprung on the article without explanation or discussion, in the face of exhaustive previous discussions and consensus here that the material was objective, appropriate, and could not be removed without breaking the rules is not in keeping with accepted practice. The so-called new article "Homosexual interpretations of Batman" has been listed for deletion, here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Homosexual interpretations of Batman Haiduc 02:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: 45k is not thought large these days, over 50 is when we have cause for concern.  Hiding  talk 12:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homosexual interpretations section deleted again 

message: "Bruce was Dick's legal guardian" 
no further comment needed. 
just keepin it real. --Ghetteaux 15:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  quoted from above section 

message: Who in their right mind whould think that Batman is gay? Because he lives with a young boy in a big house? I don't get it! Bob Kane's Batman wasn't gay. Frank Miller's wasn't gay. Tim Burton's wasn't gay. The only one that could have been inturpareted as gay would be Joel Shumacher's Batman!
W Anderson 20:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman as Gay? (again) 

message: Please see revelant topics at Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/templates and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Infobox: Powers section. Thanks. dfg 06:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon me for not elaborating earlier (especially on a Featured Article). The consensus on the Notable Powers section is to keep the information as brief as possible, with elaboration of the powers belonging in the main article text. In addition to the above two links, please also see: Template talk:Superherobox. Thanks, dfg 02:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox streamlining 

message: shouldn't the relatives be current canon.  these alternate reality relatives should just be mentioned in the main article.
:So long as they're clearly defined as alt-verse relations, I don't have a problem keeping them in.  Especially since the alt-kids' pages point back to Bats. -- Ipstenu 16:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate universe relatives 

message: Perhaps Batman needs to be a disambiguation page. There are things like provinces and cities named batman unrelated to the comic. Real life should be more notable than fiction. --Cool CatTalk|@ 17:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean like Batman (disambiguation)? That already exists and is linked at the top of the Batman page?  -- Ipstenu 17:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Disambiguation says, "Ask yourself: When a reader enters this term and pushes "Go", what article would they realistically be expecting to view as a result? When there is no risk of confusion, do not disambiguate nor add a link to a disambiguation page."  I think that the likelihood of a reader intending to find the superhero Batman is sufficiently large that the content can be contained at Batman, and the other meanings at Batman (disambiguation).  All other things being equal, real life would trump fiction, but I think that in this case the fictional meaning is of a sufficiently important cultural icon that the fiction can have the primary location. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambig

message: Look at the GRU logo,it has a bat on it.
Dudtz 4/18/06 6:58 PM EST
:Er ... so?  Don't see how that has to do with Batman.  Sure, it looks similar to the 1970s/80s logo of Bats, but it's sort of like a wolf silhouette.  There's only so much variation. (okay, it looks JUST like the logo from an old comic, but I doubt the Russian decided to use Batman's logo.) -- Ipstenu 23:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GRU 

message: While I personally don't believe Batman is comic book anti-hero (since he ins't like Punisher or any other protagonist who is given characteristics normally associated with villains without the audience's symphathy being lost, which is the very definition of an anti-hero), I agree with Ipstenu that if he has been historically referred to as such (however incorrectly I may believe that has been done), then that fact deserves a mention in this page. However, with anti-heroism being a characteristic of Batman that wouldn't be associated with him by people not familiar with comic books, or by readers with the opinion that we should concentrate on facts rather than historical interpretations, I'm moving the whole shebang about him being the first anti-hero or one of the first along with Namor over to the character history sub-section and taking it off the introductory paragraphs. I hope you agree with me about that being the best compromise. --Ace ETP 00:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me. :) -- Ipstenu 11:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: My reason for stating why Batman being an anti-hero is more of an historical interpretation or opinion than a fact is simple. Bear with me for a moment. After that jerk Frederick Werthram started bitching, Batman started sucking. All the greatness of the best 1940's comic book was sucked away in favor of around 15 years of friggin' Bat-Mite and Ace the Bat-Hound. Luckily, all that crap was discarded in 1964 by Julius Schwartz so Batman could go back to his darker roots. Then came Adam West (aka Satan, the Prince of All Evil), and the comic books started to emulate the TV Series. When that ended, it was in the hands of writers like Dennis O'Neil to bring the real Batman back for a second time. In all three of those three great, dark periods (pre-Werthram, post-1964, post-Adam West), Batman was never, not once, portrayed as an anti-hero. Sure, he was neither very friendly, nice nor social in his Batman persona, but he was looking to strike fear into the hearts of criminals so no eight-year-old boy would ever have his parents gunned down in front of him ever again (he was even portrayed as being able to smile in his daily life as Bruce Wayne without pretending, even if the days of going on picnics with Superman in World's Finest Comics were gone so we could have them fighting to death manipulated by Terra-Man). Batman was looking for justice. Not once did he look for vengeance, as you say, ACS. He never even physically harmed any of the various criminals once thought to be his parents' murdereder (you may insist on killing not being a necessary characteristic for making someone an anti-hero, but causing some sort of lasting physical impediment to the people who piss him off the most certainly almost always is. Batman, unlike the Punisher - who I hate and agree is the most stereotypical example of comic book anti-hero - would rather beat up the drug dealers who make his town a bad place than the person who made his life a living hell). You also mentioned hate. I don't believe Batman really hates anyone but himself for failing to be better (for example: check out the moment in Infinite Crisis #3 were he goes: "God, I wish...I wish I could just start over). Here's something more personal: I've always interpreted Batman's conflicts with people like Jason Todd and Hush being based on the fact that while Batman blames himself for everything that has happened to the people he loves, Jason Todd and Hush feel he should get his head out of his ass and start blaming (and/or killing) people like the Joker or Zucco. Batman didn't become a brooding jerk until the late 1980's. And even then he wasn't an anti-hero. One could argue that the most famous Batman story ever is "The Dark Knight Returns", in which he is portrayed as mostly anti-heroic, but not only is the story out-of-continuity (making my point about Batman's anti-heroism being more of a historical interpretation than fact more valid), but the guy who wrote it was scripting Batman's Modern Age origin at the same time, with an entirely different feel. Granted, Frank Miller didn't portray the Year One Batman as a happy-go-lucky guy. But he portrayed him as a practical man, able to relax when he felt his job was being done right, even if he felt a little uneasy at first. A practical man who was able to this job mostly well despite willingly carrying the burden of things that weren't his fault (this interpreation continued for years with arcs like Death In The Family, The Killing Joke, KnightSaga, Legacy, Cataclysm, No Man's Land, War Games, Hush, Identity Crisis, etc.). You also mentioned working outside the law as an anti-heroic quality...how many heroes are actually sanctioned by a legitimate body? Let's take a Modern Age Batman writer that I don't like and I still will find a perfect example of doing that without anti-heroic overtones: Chuck Dixon. Specifically, Chuck Dixon's Legacy arc. Does Batman using brutal force against Bane without having a warrant make him an anti-hero? No. Bane would have killed Batman and helped Ra's Al Ghul spread an epidemic. Batman was being a hero, pure and simple. With this happening in arcs where Batman's detective abilities don't influence the storyline a lot, it seems that we can assert that NOT being an anti-hero is more Batman-like than being a detective. And when he's working outside the law AND as a detective, he does it in such a helpful manner no one dares no help him (check out the recent Face The Face story arc), or just end up being sorry for not having been on his side ("Bruce Wayne: Murderer"). Even if there's some truth in what you say, ACS, as a complex lead character, Batman needs to have flaws for the story to be entertaining, but never does he sink into anti-heroism, because the flaws the audience notices never make them doubt his heroic qualities and put their sympathy for him as a protagonist on hold for a second; rather, they just gain more uninterrupted sympathy for the hero that is Batman. We just keep filling more sorry for the guy. Put it in whatever section about character interpretation or evolution you like, but the whole thing about Batman being an anti-hero certainly doesn't belong in an introductory paragraph about him. --Ace ETP 23:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-hero 

message: What is Batman's superpower? As far as I can tell, the closest he has is exorbitant wealth, which hardly qualifies one as a superhero. He fights crime, he wears an elaborate costume, and he makes use of gadgets, but does not have what I can see as superhuman abilities, so how is he a superhero? Isn't he just a hero?
:Read the article Superhero and especially the common traits section. CovenantD 22:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is his superpower? 

message: in the article we can read:
"* Bruce Wayne briefly went by the name "Todd Gelineau" in an issue in the 70's. Todd Gelineau was a childhood friend of creator Bob Kane."
Is this really true?! Please name a source or a comic book. thanks --87.78.166.56 12:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This line was introduced in an edit made on [[16 April 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batman&oldid=48751412]. Since there is NO issue number, NO citation for it, and NO corroboration for it, and since I'm sure it's complete bullshit, I'm removing it immediately. Kaijan 21:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Todd Gelineau" 

message: "what do you call it when two superheroes get run over by a steamroller?
Flatman and Ribbon.
when i was a kid this was a pretty common joke. --Ghetteaux 22:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So was the Jingle Bells parody.  But we'd have to make a jokes about Batman page for them all and I'm not certain they're that notable (not that my gran doesn't sing 'Batmobile lost a wheel!' every year...) -- Ipstenu 23:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ha ha ha ha ha! i forgot about that one. --Ghetteaux 10:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  something i remember