Talk:Flechette

message: Why is there a part about depleted uranium rounds in the Flechette article? Depleted Uranium rounds are neither Flechette or even anti-personnel... just found it perplexing. -Peter
:What is the difference between an ACR flechette round and a 120mm APFSDS round, other than scale?  The entire purpose of flechette is to maximize penetration, which means maximizing the sectional density, and that is commonly done through high strength, high density materials such as tungsten and depleted uranium. scot 14:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AAI and TRW experimented with DU flechette for small arms in 7.62mm NATO and .50 BMG respectively.  The cartridges had the unfortunate designation DUDS: Depleted Uranium Discarding Sabot.  --D.E. Watters (talk) 13:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Depleted uranium

message: “These 1 3/4" bomblets were air-dropped at height in canisters by aircraft, or scattered from buckets by helicopter crews, reaching sub-sonic speeds as they fell…” Does this make sense? They started at subsonic speeds. -Ahruman 23:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I re-wrote that section, and added a reference in the "external links" with pictures of various air dropped flechette from WWI to the 1970s.  Take a look and see if you think that's better now.  scot 14:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: also "supersonic" in the next paragraph does not make sense to me. if they come flying supersonic, you would not hear them before they impact at you. --Scanner 12:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While you wouldn't hear them until after they hit you, flechette are pretty survivable, and the sound can be heard from areas that are safe, such as under cover.  The low lethality of the individual flechette is one of the reasons the ACR and CAWS programs were canceled, the idea of a flechette firing individual weapon wasn't as attractive when you consider that a single flechette hit does very little damage.  Now the beehive rounds, on the other hand, are capable of generating a large number of hits to targets close to the detonation, and even at longer ranges the high sectional density can penetrate light armor.  Use of a beehive round against a legitimate target located in an area with civilian population does potentially run a higher risk of hitting a civilian than traditional round ball shrapnel, due to the wide range of the flechette, but since the risk of multiple hits drops rapidly as the range increases, the risk of a lethal injury to noncombatants is probably pretty small outside the effective radius of the shell due to the low lethality of a single flechette.  scot 14:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage 

message: Could somebody put a note beneath the photo, clearly stating that the ruler-scale under the fletchettes is in inches. Many casual readers would assume it to be a scale of centimeters, since SI uinits are used (and assumed by default) by the vast majority of this planet's population. I don't know how to place such a note, so I can't do it myself. --Peter Knutsen 02:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably not necessary, since the units in the photo are clearly divided into sixteenths, rather than tenths. But yes, it's a valid point. -NordsternMN (talk) 04:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The photo 

message: I believe that the information about the Flak cannon from Unreal should be ommitted, it has nothing at all to do with flechettes. It's kind of obvious that Flak is taken from the anti-aircraft guns, both in name and in the actual type of ammunition used.
I have removed said reference to UT as its obviously wrong to anyone who has played any/all of the games.Remember BE BOLD  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.37.15 (talk) 09:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The In Fiction part 

message: I am removing the following from the second paragraph "Small arms ammunition" section: "Second is the issue of recoil — for the same amount of kinetic energy, a lighter bullet (with a higher muzzle velocity) produces less recoil, and thus less shot dispersion in automatic fire."  This sentence doesn't make sense.  If the kinetic energy is the same, then the recoil has to be the same.  Kinetic energy backwards of the weapon equals kinetic energy forwards of the projectile.  Either the kinetic energy is less, or the recoil is the same.  Someone who knows which it is can fix this. Kurt (talk) 19:11, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it does not.  Recoil is a function of momentum, not energy.  Momentum must be conserved in any interaction, see the article on ballistic pendulum for coverage of the difference between energy and momentum conservation, and a selection of references showing how momentum is used to measure recoil.  scot (talk) 15:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recoil 

message: In this section it says "The 12 gauge version is nothing more than a standard 12 gauge shell loaded with approximately 50-100 flechettes bound tightly together within sabot jacket".  Unfortunately, there is no way anyone can pack anywhere near that number of flechettes into a standard 12-bore cartridge.  As an example, in the catalogue for a company called Hi-Vel Inc. (http://www.hi-vel.com/index.html), the description for a .410 flechette round says "Unlike the 12 gauge version that contains 20 1 inch steel darts, the .410 has only 8".
Also in relation to 12 gauge flechette cartridges, this section says "The typical maximum range for an assault shotgun that one can expect to result in instant incapacitation is approximately 60 yards.  The Flechette round extends this to approximately 100-120 yards" and later, "A typical spread at 100 yards is approximately 3 to 3.5 feet in diameter".  I have spoken to a few forces veterans about this, and their consensus opinion is that firstly, 'instant incapicitation' is just not going to happen with flechettes at anything like this distance, and secondly that 3.5 foot spread at 100 yards is total nonsense.  Browsing around various gun-type forums would appear to support this; a typical comment was "These flechette rounds were a joke.  90% of them hit the target sideways, not point-first. ... The spead was extreme - something like an 8-foot wide pattern at 50 feet".
77.107.162.102 (talk) 14:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I cleared out the whole section, since there were errors and no references, and started anew with a brief mention of the US use in Viet Nam, and the SPIW, ACR, and CAWS projects.  I think the previous bit was a mish-mash of information from M79, 12 gauge, and CAWS flechette loads.  scot (talk) 15:38, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small Arms Ammunition 

message: Both 'flechette' and 'flechettes' are used in the article... Anyone know which is correct? --76.28.89.211 (talk) 02:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plural? 

message: "While those claims are still to be investigated, it is known that several civilians (including at least one news reporter) were injured by flechette-type ammunition.[citation needed]."
This isn't merely a claim anymore. Its become public domain knowledge confirmed even in Russia, except by some state-run outlets who staunchly allege it was a car accident.
See links on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Storimans  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.95.25.120 (talk) 16:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Russian flechette use in Georgia 

message: I read this article years ago, the most interesting part was the origin, when pilots dropped improvised projectiles from planes (in WWI or before?) that accelerated to deadly speeds simply by the height from which they were dropped.  This isn't even mentioned any more. Also the structure leaves something to be desired, how can you start with "Small arms makers are also attracted by the exterior ballistic ", when nothing about that has been said yet? 84.197.178.75 (talk) 21:04, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is incomplete 

message: Article indicates IDF is using flechettes and the only source is palestinian groups. I think we need a better source before claiming Israeli use of this weapon.
: Do you want an RS check on www.theguardian.com ? Hcobb (talk) 20:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Current Use 

message: The article gives the impression that flechettes are from dusty history books, —how cute!— and devalues current usage. The article says in total about current American usage:
 The 70 mm Hydra 70 rocket currently in service with the US Armed forces can be fitted with an anti-personnel (APERS) warhead containing 96 flechettes.[citation needed] They are carried by attack helicopters such as the AH-64 Apache and the AH-1 Cobra.
Here's some of what I found:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_70#Common_warheads
 The Hydra 70 rocket is a 2.75-inch fin-stabilized unguided rocket used primarily in the air-to-ground role. It can be equipped with a variety of warheads, and in more recent versions, guidance systems for point attacks. The Hydra is widely used by US and allied forces,...Warheads:
Designation	Description	         Weight	                          Payload	
M255	   APERS (anti-personnel)		             2500 28 grains (1.8 g) flechettes		
M255E1/A1	Flechette 	    14.0 pounds (6.4 kg  1179 60 grains (3.9 g) flechettes	
WDU-4/A 	APERS 	            9.3 pounds (4.2 kg)   96 flechettes of unknown weight		
WDU-4A/A	APERS 	            9.3 pounds (4.2 kg)  2205 20 grains (1.3 g) flechettes	
Boeing AH-64 Apache - Wikipedia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64D
 The Boeing AH-64 Apache is an American four-blade, ... During Operation Desert Storm on 17 January 1991...The Apaches each carried an asymmetric load of Hydra 70 flechette rockets, Hellfires, ...
http://hasanudin-adien.blogspot.com/2013/04/hydra-70-rocket-system-united-states-of.html
 Hydra-70 rocket system is ...the most commonly used helicopter-launched weapon system in the world.
 [Among] the nine warheads used with Hydra-70 include the ...M255A1 Flechette containing 1,179 60-grain hardened steel flechettes. It is used against light material and personnel targets. Upon firing,...
 The rocket system can be installed on most rotary and fixed-wing aircraft, such as the AH-64 Apache, AH-1Z Viper, AH-1 Cobra, OH-58 Kiowa, UH-60 Black Hawk, P-3 Orion, MH-6 Little Bird, A-10 Thunderbolt II, AV-8B Harrier II, UH-1 Iroquois, F-4 Phantom II, F-16 Fighting Falcon, F/A-18 Hornet, OV-10 Bronco, A-4 Skyhawk and A-6 Intruder.
 The latest order from the US Army, placed in February 2013, is valued at $224m. GDATP will supply Hydra-70 rockets and...
Notice that's just the U.S. Hydra-70 rocket system usage. One can now buy one pound of flechettes for about US$35. Cheers!--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:7503:4FF:E70D:33B0 (talk) 05:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Usage 

message: I am removing the claim that these weapons "are considered a human rights violation".  The citation indicates that a single lobby group has so claimed, without reference to any human rights law that the weapons allegedly violate.
If that's sufficient to establish that they "are considered a human rights violation", then I should be able to add "is considered fraudulent" to the 2020 US Presidential election, which I could support with 20 or more citations no less credible. 31.125.75.71 (talk) 03:35, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Human Rights Violation

message: Why are there two paragraphs about the Lazy Dog bombs used “later“ by the US? These are not flechettes and there is a separate article about lazy dog bombs. I would think that at most they warrant a single sentence pointing to the separate article. How about “The United States copied the principle in the creation of projectiles they called Lazy Dog bombs.” 
The rest of the article is about applications in US small arms, artillery and rockets.  While the name might have been copied, to me these are distinctly different from true flechettes and have more in common with the case shot used in smoothbore cannon.
That leaves the article with little more than the first two or three sentences. However, more information could be added about the use of true flechettes. For example, given the name of French origin can we confirm that they are a French invention? Are there any names and dates associated with that? Were they then adopted by the British, the Germans, the Americans, and others, and if so when? I recall reading that WW1 pilots carried a supply of flechettes which they dropped over the side when they flew over enemy lines, and that despite the millions of them dropped in World War I there is no record of any soldier having been hit by a flechette. I’ll include that if I can find a source. Finally, did such flechettes fall out of use along with open cockpits?
I’d like to see something more like an encyclopedia article than a catalogue of later arms developments. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 11:14, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lazy Dog bombs