Talk:George Washington/Archive 2

message: The opening lines say that Washington is ranked with Lincoln as the greatest presidents; however, when you follow the link, you see the cumulative rankings put FDR above Lincoln. Shouldn't the three be mentioned together?
--L.A.F. 01:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening Lines

message: Also, the connection between the subsections in that section is very loose. What should we do? Should we scrap the main section, and turn the subsections into sections? Or should we turn them all into sections, and put a section POV tag on the main section (but that's obviously not a permenant solution)? Personally, I would turn other subsections into sections, boil the main section down, and cite any examples of praise lauded upon him.
Please discuss. --Trevdna 23:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Personal Information" section 

message: Because this section was flagged, I added some words to make it about how people viewed Washington's qualities over time. If there is an American ethic, Washington was often the role model used to teach that ethic. In other words, his personal qualities continued to affect history long after his death - much more so than other leaders. 
Trevdna, I think you are right that the section still needs much work. Didn't have time to do much except modify the first 4-5 sentences. --Ej0c 15:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a matter of priority. Surveys of textbooks and standards these days show no evidence that Washington, Jefferson, et al were people to loook up to, and lots of emphasis that they and all leaders past or present should not be trusted or emulated. 'Twasn't always so; and the evidence doesn't prove that we are better off for the change. --Ej0c 20:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal qualities 

message: Did he really authorize electronic wiretapping of terrorists?
:Surely, yes. Questioning this fact would insinuate that the current leaders of the USA are incompetent. No layman gets the post of the Secretary of Justice, pal. --Keimzelle 12:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What, if somebody could ask Alberto Gonzalez to verify his sources? Then, Benjamin Franklin has been investigating electric charge even before Washington was inaugurated, so the possibilities to detect electric fields and thus wiretapping phone lines existed at the time. --Keimzelle 18:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major presidential acts 

message: There are many errors in the section on GW in the Revolution.  I have tried to fix some of it but do not have the time for the complete revision this section needs.  Burgoyne lost at Saratoga in 1777, not 1778.  His invasion was part of a three-pronged strategy to seize the Hudson, not a two-pronged strategy involving an attack on Philadelphia, which the article claims.  Howe was supposed to march north in support of Burgoyne, but he didn't.  
Washington was not promoting independence in 1775; almost nobody was pushing for independence at that early stage.  
It is absurd to say that in 1778 "It now seemed likely that the British would never re-conquer the new nation."  Another absurdity: "After 1778, the British made one last effort to split apart the new nation, this time focused on the southern states. Rather than attack them there, Washington's forces moved to West Point in New York."  Two of GW's top generals, Lee and Greene, were fighting in the South.  The "author" of this section seems not to have heard of the battles at Charleston, Savannah, King's Mountain, Cowpens, Guilford Courthouse.   
The section on the cherry tree story is all wrong.  If you're going to write about this you should look at Marcus Cunliffe's introduction to the Weems biography, which has a long and serious consideration of the story, concluding that we can't discard it – it might actually have happened.  And Washington didn't "chop down" the tree; he skinned the bark off it. 
The preceding, previously unsigned comment by 65.40.127.120
Thank you very much for your concern - please feel free to improve this article as you see fit. It would be greatly appreciated if you could cite your sources when you make the corrections.
However, your firey temperament and careless throwing around of completely beligerant adjectives will not make you friends here on Wikipedia, and you will find that people don't wish to even listen to you when you attack them. Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks before you continue to make personal attacks. --Trevdna 05:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Section inaccuracies

message: I can't understand why semi-protection of this article cannot be extended for a longer time.
There are 20 edits today, consisting only in vandalism and reverts.
What's the use of unprotecting this page after 3 days, having several days with 30 vandalisms+reverts per day, and then reprotect it again ?
Why not limit edits to registered users?
After all, if the duration of semi-protection is about the same than the duration for converting a new user to an "established" user, the "impossible-to-edit" effect is the same for a "good faith" user.
If editing was allowed to registered users only, even if they are new, this would allow a user with good faith to be able to edit it, and prevent at least 95% of the hooligans from making their stupid vandalizing edits. — MFH:Talk 20:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  extended semi-protection 

message: GW's Farewell address is mentioned about four times on this page in uncoordinated ways.  Those references should be consolidated. -- Qwertypro3 23:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Farewell address 

message: Because everybody knows at least one piece of trivia about Washington, minor (and arguably insignificant) factoids sometimes find their way into this article. Since biographies of Washington often run into multiple volumes, everything interesting about him can't be in this article; our purpose here, of course, is to write an encyclopedia article, not collect trivia. Therefore, following is a list of factoids removed from the article which seem to be of too minor interest to belong in an encyclopedia article. Adjust as you see fit.
*Washington became a volunteer firefighter in Alexandria, Virginia. In 1774, as a member of the Friendship Veterans Fire Engine Company, he bought the first fire engine and gave it to the town. The engine can be seen today at the Friendship Veterans Fire Engine Company Museum in Alexandria.Famous Early American Firefighters (January 7, 2003). Marinwood Fire Department. Accessed on May 22, 2006.
*He established a distillery there and became probably the largest distiller of whiskey in the nation at the time, producing 11,000 gallons (42,000 l) of whiskey and a profit of $7,500 in 1798.
*Washington was a cricket enthusiast and was known to have played the sport, which was popular at that time in the British colonies.
*Through his father's family, Washington was a direct descendant of King Edward III and William the Conqueror of England. George Washington's Royal descent {for reference only}. A cousin of George Washington was Lieutenant General Jakob Freiherr Von Washington Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath.
* George Washington loved ice cream and reportedly spent approximately $200 on it during the summer of 1790.  He reportedly owned the first ice cream freezer in the colonies. Morsels & More. 2003. Activity Connection.com. Accessed on May 23, 2006.
*The most famous man of his day, George Washington received hundreds of guests to his home every year.  In 1798, 677 visitors passed through Mount Vernon.  Washington compared his home to a "well-resorted tavern".
*Washington is a playable leader of the American civilization in the PC game Civilization IV alongside Franklin Roosevelt.
*Washington was considered to be the finest horseman of his day.  One of his favorite horses was named Nelson. 
*Washington grew hemp, which was a common crop at the time used for fiber production, specifically to make rope.  
*His family had originated in, and taken the name of, the town of Washington, Tyne and Wear, a short distance from Newcastle upon Tyne in North East England. In the 1500s, they moved to Sulgrave Manor in the county of Northamptonshire.
*Because of Washington's involvement in Freemasonry, some Masonic lodges maintain publicly visible collections of Washington memorabilia, most notably, the George Washington Masonic Memorial in Alexandria, Virginia. The museum at Fraunces Tavern Museum in New York City includes specimens of Washington's false teeth.
*Americans often refer to men in other nations considered the "Father of their Country" as "the George Washington of his nation" (for example, Mahatma Gandhi's role in India).
*In the first Presidential inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution. Before taking his oath of office, a local Masonic Bible was hurriedly borrowed on which to take the oath. Upon completing the oath, Washington leaned over and kissed the Bible.
*An attempt was made to kidnap George Washington while he was commander-in-chief of the army during the American Revolution.  The governor of New York, William Tryon, and the mayor of New York City, David Matthews, both Tories, were involved in the plot, as was one of Washington's bodyguards, Thomas Hickey.  Hickey was court-martialed and hanged for mutiny, sedition, and treachery, on June 28, 1776.
*He participated in the laying of the cornerstone of the U.S. Capitol Building as a Freemason. He was Master of Alexandria Masonic Lodge and was buried with Masonic honors.  He was even suggested for the position of General Grand Master of Masons in America (which he did not pursue).  It is generally accepted that if he would have taken the position that the individual state grand lodges would have united into one Grand Lodge of the United States.
:"everything interesting about him can't be in this article; our purpose here, of course, is to write an encyclopedia article"
:Is there a page limit?  Are we short of paper?  Cost over-runs?   Why can't wikipedia be complete?
:~ender 2006-06-20 12:45:MST
::Washington kept diaries much of his life. Those are public domain, so we could conceivably list, day by day, everything he ever did in order to be "complete". But, of course, our purpose here is to write an encyclopedia article, not collect trivia. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 21:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factoid vault 

message: After watching a show, a friend and I began debating this question for about 4 hours. My position is that Washington was a Virtuous leader.  I base my argument on the act of justice, temperance, prudence, and courage that he displayed in the management of the army.  These acts were exemplified by denying power, once his duty was done. (For example, leaving after 2 term as president)
While my friend argues, Washington was not virtuous because these acts were calculated to gain power. He would not accept Kingly power, because he saw mistakes in the English Monarchy especially in its actions with the American colonies. The second part of his argument is Washington’s intentions.  Since the acts of virtue require good intentions not cold intentions, Washington could not have been a virtuous leader. 
The debate continues… (please leave sensible agrument points)Nicasa 07:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't the right place to debate such things -- this page is for discussion about writing the article on Washington. Your might try Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities instead. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 09:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  was George Washington virtuos or calculative 

message: I wonder about this sentence:
:In 1778, while Washington was at war, he wrote to his manager at Mount Vernon that he wished sell his slaves and "to get quit of negroes"—a plan prompted by the economic inefficiency of slavery—but since he had resolved not to sell slaves without their consent, nothing came of this idea.
This seems unneccessarily vague.  Is it implied that Washington could not sell his slaves because they refused to go?  That is the most likely inference I can draw from the wording used above.  I have a hard time believing it, though.  Could the exact reasons for Washington's failure to divest himself of slaves be made more clear?
Furthermore, is the following claim sourced?
:Washington rotated his household slaves between Mount Vernon and Philadelphia so that they did not earn their freedom, a scheme he attempted to keep hidden from his slaves and the public.
At the end of the paragraph is a reference link, but I don't know how much of the paragraph is sourced by it.  Does anyone know?  Kasreyn 02:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've completed a second revision of that section, which hopefully clears up these issues. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 20:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington and Slavery 

message: I think it should be mentioned how Washington swore a lot and didn't react well under pressure. In the famous scene "Washington Crossing the Deleware", he was quoted as saying to one of his mates, "Henry, sit your fat ass down. You're going to tip the boat!"
Just thought I'd say something... Lordofallkobuns 08:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That quote was from the TV movie The Crossing. It was a lame attempt to make Washington more colorful. --24.152.209.63 15:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the amusing misconceptions people have about that painting is that Washington was doing something unusual by standing. But the painting isn't particularly accurate; the boat would have been a high-sided, flat-bottomed boat, and all of the passengers would have been standing for the short crossing. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a couple things wrong with that painting. Prince Whipple likely wasn't present at the time, the use of the wrong flag, etc. Oddly enough, the ice is said to be quite accurate. --24.152.209.63 17:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The quote was from The Crossing (film), and Jeff Daniels (playing Washington) was speaking to Henry Knox.  I don't know if that was a total fabrication by the writers or if that quote was taken from some other account of the crossing.  --rogerd 16:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember watching it on the history channel and during a break in the film a historian said the Daniels' portrayal was accurate except for that line. --24.152.209.63 17:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that line was originally from Howard Fast's novel The Crossing, which has invented, anachronistic dialogue, and usually makes Knox (one of Washington's best officers) into an oafish butt of fat jokes. There are more plausible stories of Washington swearing (especially at the Battle of Monmouth), though historians regard some of these as apocryphal. Maybe the worst he said was calling General Charles Lee a "damned poltroon." By the way, the originator of this topic was wrong to say that Washington didn't react well under pressure: although he did let his temper fly now and then, he was generally cool during the war despite being under immense pressure. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 20:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington's Swearing 

message: Ran across a factoid that Indians (Iroquois) called Washington "Burner of Towns", during the war of Independence, his written orders (regarding their towns) were: "The immediate objects are the total devastation and destruction of their settlements" - food destroyed, and people turned out into winter, etc.  Unfortunately I don't have a primary source document for this... 
~ender 2006-06-20 12:23:MST
:A bit of a myth that he got that name during the Revolution. First got the name "Town Destroyer" during the French and Indian War, perhaps meant as a compliment at the time. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 21:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indian views of Washington