Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 8

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bratunac&diff=72993813&oldid=72992420
Let me quote:
"During the war in Bosnia, Bratunac was located in defend zone which was administrated by Holland Kfor or Un. The Holland KFOR has the task to protect any residents in this zone but they didn't do it. In 1993 on the Serbian Orthodox Christmas, Muslem Bosnian Army on lead with Naser Oric raided into the willage burned it and massacred Serbian Civil residents in Bratunac.   
    
Today in Bratunac exists monument of 3 286 Serbs who were killed in operation of Muslem Bosnian Army on Bratunac. The commadant of Muslem Bosnian Army "Naser Oric" has the biggest responsibility for bloody killing of Serbian Humans in Bratunac."
Guess you'd keep an eye on this, thanks.
Identity of poster? Opbeith 14:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related: Repeated spam attacks on the Bratunac article 

message: The article is too long, it should be split into smaller parts. --KOCOBO 01:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I can't find anything in the article, its so enormous. --Serb talk 02:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Bosniak, sarcasm isn't nice. --Serb talk 03:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Are you accusing all extremist Serb nationals (A Serb national is any Serb living in Serbia) of killing 8,000 Bosniaks? Are you accusing me? First of all, I think you wanted to use the word "nationalist" and not "national". I think it is you who needs the tutoring along with basic English reading skills. --Serb talk 03:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting 

message: Bosniak's reply to Boris
Hi Boris, of course we can deal in civilized matter. Why do you think that the article is not neutral? Can you at least discuss this in Srebrenica Massacre's discussion page? If you want your edits to stay longer, you need to discuss it before you make any changes. People are very sensitive to any changes to that article. Even when I make a change, they are sensitive to it. Why do you think that the article does not tell all sides of the story? Are you trying to tell that Naser Oric attacked Serb villages and Serbs had to defend themselves from Bosniaks who were under siege? You guys used same argument in the past with Sarajevo, basicly the story goes that you had to defend yourself from Bosniak people in Sarajevo who were under siege. You can try these arguments in discussion page, but it's pointless and offensive to use such arguments as a defence. However, you are welcome to try. Simply go to discussion page, tell people reasons of your edits and sources and then we will all compromise. It's simple as that. No need for personal attacks as we can all deal in civilized matter. Bosniak 03:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosniak's reply to Boris - possible cease fire or more war ? 

message: If you want Serb side of the story, why not post this statement: "Most Serbs consider the massacre an act of revenge against Naser Oric and his troops who committed individual war crimes during raids into Serb villages." 
The reason these raids cannot be called massacres is the following: Serbs blame Oric and his forces for hundreds of deaths in Kravice during Orthodox Christmas in January 1993. Republika Srpska primary sources state that in Kravica 35 soldiers and 11 civilians died. If we are going to call slaughter of 11 civilians a massacre, then we could apply that term to mostly all killings in Bosnia. What I can agree with you is that individual actions of Oric's troops in Kravica were a war crime and I absolutely condemn these killings. However, they cannot be used for justification of genocide, and I don't believe you are trying to use them as such. Bosniak 04:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fairview, please go to your admins to sort this out, because you're obviously not up for a discussion. Yes, you would rather inforce your opinion on all of us. The admins are coming to their senses, and so should you. --Svetislav Jovanović 05:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Svetislav, who are you refering to when you say "us"? What opinion exactly are you refering to? That the VRS committed an act of genocide? Try as you may, but reducing that assertion to simply a personal opinion will not succeed. The ICTY already sorted this out. They convicted Krstic of aiding and abetting genocide. Fairview360 05:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serb side of story and Boris 

message: One of the problems of Wikipaedia seems to be that matters get announced and discussed all over the place.  I've found out from Bosniak's User Talk page that his ISP has been suspended for a week as a result of a heated exchange with another contributor who affirmed his disbelief in the fact of genocide.  I'm uncertain whether the suspension is related simply to the User Talk exchange or concerns matters relating to the article itself, but suspension has implications for editing of the article itself.  I've posted the following at Bosniak's User Page but I think the subject of the admissibility of certain types of edit and the need to accept a framework of objectively established fact is relevant here.
"Bosniak is very sensitive to the issue of genocide denial, understandably, and doesn't always express himself in tempered tones.  But Blnguyen it seems to me  that you've simply responded to the tone of his language rather than the substantive justification for his action.
The ICTY, a member of the United Nations family of organisations and the legal authority in the field, has ruled in the Krstic case that the Srebrenica massacre could be termed genocide in accordance with the provisions of the Genocide Convention.  No other international forum has overthrown that ruling.  The ICTY is currently hearing cases in which charges of genocide are involved.  I think it is fair to assume that the defence will present all current arguments challenging the categorisation of the Srebrenica massacre as genocide to the Court.  The Court will then rule as to whether its previous opinion should be overthrown.  There is no room for any personal expression of doubt in this article.  I might dispute the legitimacy of Slobodan Milosevic's assumption of the presidency of Yugoslavia or equally George W. Bush's election as President of the United States but I cannot change the content of an entry to indicate that they were not President of their respective nations.
Bosniak was right to insist that denials of genocide will be edited out of this article.  There is no scope to allow any further denial of genocide unless and until the ICTY's ruling is overthrown.   Even though I don't always agree with the way Bosniak expresses his views, in this case he is absolutely correct.  Personally I find it a moral outrage that genocide at Srebrenica is denied but for the purposes of this article we're trying to pretend that moral outrage doesn't exist and keep to the facts.  Genocide at Srebrenica is a fact established in international law.  I ask the moderators of this article to accept that." --Opbeith 11:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Osli making sense? What exactly is being described as "original research" that does not belong in the article? Fairview360 03:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genocide query or denial 

message: Insert formula here
I have been asked by one of the users to help out on this article. I will not bring in extremist views from myself, but I will fight for the right and correct statements. 
One thing you all should know is that User:Bormalagurski is a person with totally extremist ideas. I am saying this because he is blocked on the Serbian Wikipedia due to those same ideas and views. I have been analyzing his moves. He not only has problems with how he expresses himself, but also has tried to manipulate other users. He stepped up to the plate when he tried to be my friend through telling me how he wanted BiH to be united (Check my discussion archives). An other case is: (User:Rémih) on the French wikipedia. He convinced Remith to vote for him even though Rémih did neither know Cyrillic nor Serbian. Once he was block indefinitely, he tried to change Wikipedia policies through making a public vote for his return on the Serbian Wikipedia. This was seen by the other Serbian users and it has definitely blocked him for good. Check this:His plea The "Voting"
I just wanted to tell you guys with whom you are dealing with. Srebrenica happened and their is no denying it. There is tons of videofootage from channels such as CNN. My aunt is married to a Serbian man. They both agree that the nation of Serbia still to this day denies any acts such as Srebrenica and even denies BiH TV stations in its nation.
Croatia on the contrary, allowed Srebrenica posters for the ten year anniversary to be displayed all over Zagreb.
Wikipedia should not be a website for one to express his own ideas without any facts to back up with. I will try to bring in a neutral point of view.
Thanks, Kseferovic 17:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have been analyzing my moves? This is a clear case of Wikistalking. My actions on sr wiki don't concern the fine administrators here on en wiki, but your actions on en wiki do. I will report you for harassment. Furthermore, I do NOT deny that the Srebrenica massacre happened, I condemn it, but fail to recognize it as an act of genocide, and I think your Serbian aunt's husband would agree with me. Also, Kseferovic, I never did or said anything bad to you, I really wanted to be your friend, but to you, ethnic affiliation is more important. I think I know who the nationalist is here. Have a nice day, --Serb talk 01:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't look like stalking to me - everybody who edits has their contribs put on a list and will be held to account for their edits. Heaps of people are keeping an eye on me and I know that and there is nothing wrong, unless they follow me around excessively scrutinising my edits across all fields. Unless you can show he is targeting your edits, then there is no violation.Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 01:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Bormalagurski, all Kseferovic has done is hold you accountable for your behavior. All wikipedians are held accountable by a system that keeps track of all we have done or said. What is wrong with being held accountable?Fairview360 03:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just so you know 

message: Seeing as this page has suffered 20-25 sets of reverts within 2 hours, it has been protected. Some guys may end up in the cooler for reverting too much. As to why I blocked Bosniak, it was due to WP:LEGAL threats and nothing to do with any article edits by him, Bormalagurski or any other Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, Albanian editors. Queries about his block are welcome at my talk page. Thanks, Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 23:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: We cannot compromise with ICTY facts and judgements. If Serbs think that recognition of Srebrenica genocide is pro-Bosniak, that's their problem. The article should be reverted to the last edit by Fairview and then we can continue building and improving the article from there. We cannot compromise with people who deny Srebrenica genocide. Srebrenica massacre article is heavily relied on ICTY facts and judgements, and there is no compromise regarding facts. If Serbs don't like the facts, that's their problem, not ours. The bottom line: The International Crimes Tribunal has ruled that the massacre in Srebrenica was an act of genocide (in the case of Krstic and in the case of Blagojevic). There is no compromise with facts. Those who vandalize this article should be either blocked from editing it or banned, because they are vandals, they publicly deny Srebrenica genocide, and they destroy ICTY facts. We are not willing to compromise with facts. The article is already heavily relied to ICTY facts if Serbs think that the international justice is against them, that's their problem, not ours.
Bosniak , Number 1, nationalist Serbs do not represent all Serbs therefore I would ask that you use more specific language and stop blaming all Serbs for the nationalists in their midst. All Serbs are not of one mentality. Thousands of Serbs this week protested the proposal to name a street after Milosevic. Tens of thousands of Serbs protested Milosevic in 1991. Serbs Stambolic and Dzindic were murdered by Serb ultra-nationalists. Many Serbs were killed by Serbian ultra-nationalists. When you accuse all Serbs of being nationalist, you are helping the nationalists' claim that they represent all Serbs. They don't. Number 2, ultra-nationalist Serbs committed genocide. That is a crime against humanity, not just Bosniaks. Therefore, it is an issue for all humanity, not just Bosniaks. There are people of all ethnicities and nationalities including Serbs who oppose the denial of the Srebrenica Massacre. (Women in Black from Belgrade) So Bosniaks are not alone in the commitment to maintain the truth of what happened in Srebrenica. Do not worry, we are not going to allow this article to become one of denial and obfuscation. Fairview360 04:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we talk about genocide, that region is subject of several genocides against Serbs. It is well documented in book of independent researcher Milivoje Ivanisevic . Here is summary of book: http://www.suc.org/culture/library/Hronika_Naseg_Groblja/misc/summary.html
Whole book is in serbian http://www.suc.org/culture/library/Hronika_Naseg_Groblja/index.html
If we talk about genocide we have to talk about several genocides against Sebs in same region.--Medule 17:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Um, hey. There was a link, Mladic was recorded in Srebrenica giving speach about "time to take revenge on Turks, here on the Serb holy day" (this kind of stuff). --HanzoHattori 23:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BOSNIAKS CANNOT COMPROMISE WITH FACTS 

message: If you think that the IP address is Bosniak evadin his block, then please use WP:RFCU to ask for his IP to be checked. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 04:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bosniak 

message: Somebody please explain to me why
The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II and it is the first legally established case of genocide in Europe. Institute for War and Peace Reporting, Tribunal Update: Briefly Noted (TU No 398, 18-Mar-05)  In the unanimous landmark ruling, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) ruled that the Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide stating in its judgement: 
:"By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims [Bosniaks], the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity." ICTY; "Prosecutor vs. Krstic: Appeals chamber judgement"; United Nations   
was put out from the article (and entirely). Guess it was done by, well, genocide deniers. 
:Hanzo, it is a shame that that part was lost during the edit war since it provides well documented thoroughly researched context for what happened. The first part of the intro shows what happened. The second part gives context. Hopefully, the second part can be restored. Fairview360 15:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hanzo, excellent suggestion. The article definitely needs help establishing consistency in the terminology and explaining abbreviations. Fairview360 15:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The entry 

message: I want to change "Legal Proceedings" to "Legal proceedings" to comply with the MoS, but the article is blocked :-( Could someone fix it when the block expires? Lots of thanks in advance, Shinobu 12:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal proceedings 

message: As far as I ve read Osli is patronizing positively towards Serbian fascist. This is a very ironic attitude as I can see on userpage of Osli he is interested in politics. He most probably have some knowledge on eu politics and I know that Europeans are very sensitive on genocides having very deep comprehension on the genocide claims of Armenians or Pontus. However some people especially those who are rather interested in politics tend to get blind when there is a debate about the war crimes in the European continent or more precisely in Balkans. The politics today is not different from the politics 100 years ago, same brutality same doublestandarts...and this will not change, I hope it will be broken, so the eagerness for human rights in developed countries is a big lie. (cantikadam 14:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doublestandarts getting brutal 

message: I would like to propose this introduction:
The Srebrenica massacre, also known as Srebrenica genocide, was the July 1995 killing of at least 8,000 Bosniak civilians, ranging in age from teenagers to the elderly, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by the Army of Republika Srpska under the command of general Ratko Mladić. In addition to the Army of Republika Srpska, special state security forces of Serbia known as the "Scorpions" participated in the genocide. The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area" and 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time, but they did not prevent the massacre. The genocide included several instances where preteen children and women were also killed.While the exact number killed will never be known, the list of people missing or killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Federal Commission of Missing Persons so far includes 8,373 names.
The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II and it is the first legally established case of genocide in Europe. In the unanimous landmark ruling "Prosecutor v. Krstic", the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) ruled that the Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide stating in its judgement:
"By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims [Bosniaks], the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity."
War ciminals responsible for genocide, Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic are still protected by Serbian government according to NATO, ICTY and some Serbian officials as Vladan Batic, former Serbian minister of justice. 
Explanation:
This is purely based on ICTY judgement and NATO sources. I also suggest to change the name of the article in Srebrenica Genocide instead of Srebrenica Massacre, as it is ICTY based, as the above user suggested. Kruško Mortale 14:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would also support this, at least until the ICJ rules in favor of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Bosnian genocide case. Live Forever 16:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Referred to by some" is not POV because the word "some" implies that those who refer to it as the "Srebrenica genocide" form some sort of united front with an agenda. Of course, this is not the case. A more accurate and NPOV description would be "Also referred to as the Srebrenica genocide". Live Forever 21:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, no, because nobody is actually saying that exactly 8,000 people were killed. Although using the words "at least"  may come off as POV, the generally accepted view is in fact that there were more than 8,000 victims - and it is the generally accepted view. The ICTY judgement you bring up is now five years old, and it's findings are (as you yourself admitted earlier) outdated. You go on to say that this figure "is often cited" (although you conveniently never bother to provide concrete examples), but the only reason that this figure "is often cited" is precisely because the sources that do so are based on the ICTY judgement. Live Forever 21:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: And here we come to the central disagreement through which negotiating with you is, perhaps, impossible. The Srebrenica massacre was an act of Genocide - period. This is not a political viewpoint, it is not an "issue" to be debated or "politicized"; it is a historical fact, independent of (although certainly reinforced by) the ICTY judgement. It has been repeatedly proven in international court, reiterated by various foreign governments, widely accepted as echoed by numerous international media, and recognized by a wide variety of academic and human rights organizations ranging from Human Rights Watch to The International Association of Genocide Scholars (the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe). On the other hand, for the view that you repeatedly insist holds equal validity, we have the majority of Serbs and a handful of sympathizing (and often criticized) Western intellectuals. In short, we have on our hands a situation that (in these respects) is identical to the Armenian genocide - a better known instance of genocide on whose article any attempts to do what you're trying to do here is treated (and rightly so) as simple vandalism. Live Forever 21:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: Kamenica needs disambiguation, most likely into Kamenica (Bosnia and Herzegovina). The disambigation itself also could be improved, there are several settlements of the same name in Bosnia. Pavel Vozenilek 14:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Kamenica]] needs disambiguation 

message: it must be protected from vandals who destroy UN/ICTY facts. However, I wish this was a protected version http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Srebrenica_massacre&oldid=73689151 . But again, I don't think BLnguyen is neutral, but at least his decision doesn't help the Serb cause. 
However, if he was fair, he would have locked the topic that was in place before vandalism; but he didnt. His censorship and administrative privileges should be under review.'''
:You can go to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct and lodge a complaint. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 00:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second Fairview's statement above. I also take heart in his statement that "mediating Balkan conflicts will inevitably involve decisions that do not please everyone". For us to make progress on this article that statement will also go for articles about Balkan conflicts. Regards Osli73 07:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  To remain passive in the face of an unmitigated evil is not neutral; it is immoral and taking the side of the aggressor. The only way people are able to perpetrate genocide is by good people remaining passive. When an innocent human being is murdered or raped, saying it takes two to tango is a perversion of any fair minded assessment. Allowing neo-nazi's to add revisionist edits to the Holocaust wiki-article would not be considered a fair minded approach to administering wiki. So yes, Opbeith, I believe we are in agreement and I hope that any administrator would be well informed and not let revisionist propaganda get a foothold in this article. Fairview360 19:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BLnguyen, keep article protected indefinitely 

message: I'm not sure why the initial "M" has gone from upper case to lower case.  In English capitalisation is used to indicate a unique event - for example see the Wikipedia article on the Peterloo Massacre.  I see no reason for a lower case "m" (is it the typographically challenged editor of the Guardian at work here?).  Would anyone disagree to reverting to the upper case "M"? --Opbeith 16:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title:  Srebrenica Massacre or massacre 

message: Dmcdevit has stated that this is due to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kosovo under Wikipedia:Article probation as this article intersects with Kosovo in the sense of the people editing it. Also Bormalagurski needs to explain "rv blocked user" because unless the Ip is a sock evading a block he is not entitled to a free revert. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 02:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotected 

message: Here is my proposal for an introduction to the article (same as above). Please comment.
:The Srebrenica massacre was the killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak males (though some women and children were also killed) following the takeover of the town of Srebrenica in July 1995 by Bosnian Serb forces during the Bosnian War. An estimated xx were executed after being captured in the town itself, while an estimated xx were captured or killed while trying to flee to Bosnian government controlled town of Tuzla. 
:To date, xx bodies have been excavated of which xx have been identified. Another xx persons are still registered as missing. The process has been made more difficult by the attempts by the Bosnian Serb army to hide the traces of the massacre, including reburials of some of the victims.
:Ratko Mladić and other Serb officers in the Army of Republika Srpska have been indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) for the massacre. In 2004 the Bosnian Serb general Radislav Krstić became the third person ever to be convicted under the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide for aiding and abetting genocide. In its ruling the ICTY found that the Srebrenica massacre was an Act of genocide.
:The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area" and 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time, but did not prevent the massacre. Following an investigation into the massacre and the role of the Dutch peacekeepers the Dutch government resigned in April 2002.
Sincere regards Osli73 11:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: Here is my suggestion for a structure of the article (same as above except for adding a section for no:s killed in section 5c). Please comment.
1. Introduction 
2. Background
:a. The war in eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina
:b. The Bosnian Serb war aims
:c. Events in and around Srebrenica 1992-1995
3. The attack on Srebrenica
4. The massacre
:a. Potocari
:b. The column of Bosniak men fleeing to Tuzla
:c. The mass executions
5. After the massacre
:a. Arrival in Tuzla
:b. The reburials
:c. Numbers killed
6. Legal proceedings
:a. ICTY
:b. National court cases
:c. International Court of Justice
7. Political consequences
:a. Reaction of the Bosnian Serb and Yugoslav governments
:b. Resignation of the Dutch government
:c. Srebrenica genocide memorial
:d. Charges and countercharges of politicization of the massacre and of genocide denial and revisionism
Sincere regards Osli73 11:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure of the article 

message: Blnguyen and others: 
Here is my proposal for Srebrenica Massacre article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre . Please don't use reverts, use this template for changes. We want to avoid another revert war. I also propose this version of the article be shortened. It contains facts of the case (ICTY, UN, etc). New material can be added as appropriate. However, it should be shortened (paraphrasing ok). Bosniak 02:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Srebrenica Massacre - My Proposition 

message: Can someone please fix footer formatting, so there is one line for multiple references instead of multiple line referencing to same reference, you know what I mean?142.179.66.89 20:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FOOTER FORMATTING