Wikipedia talk:No original research/Archive 15

message: That's how it looks to me, and very ugly. But is it only me? Does it look OK to everyone else? Or has my machine dropped acid? qp10qp 03:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed This is happening to a number of david gerard recent nutshell restorations --Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 22:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nutshell text spilling onto Wikipedia policies box?

message: Is making a purely mathematical calculation to yield a result original research?
If a verifiable source, say a census bureau gives the population of a geographic entity, and also gives its area, is the mere quotient of the two (yielding the population density) original research if the census bureau does not explicitly provide that number? What can be done consistent with no original research: (a) forgo the information even in our info boxes; (b) search for some other reliable source which has decided to do the math for us (which may not be available, especially as the census bureau tends to be more "up to date" than most other secondary sources, so the calculations from reliable sources may not be made using the same numbers); (c) do the math ourselves <sarcasm>and cite the maker of our calculator the reliable source</sarcasm>.
Carlossuarez46 17:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On one hand I don't think you need a citation to state the 8/2=4. However, when aggregating statistics  it is important to take into account if the statistics were designed to go together. For example, what is the range of error for the 2 values? Perhaps you can put a "~" before it and a footnote on it stating how it was calculated. HighInBC 20:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Citing the two values and calculating the ratio seems unexceptionable.   Is anyone actually making an issue of this? Robert A.West (Talk) 03:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is it original research if... (redux)

message: A proposal that WP:NOR and WP:V be combined, and WP:RS ditched. All views welcome. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the current set up. While they all work together, they are all very different sets of rules. HighInBC 14:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: As I noted elsewhere, I think it's a good idea, which will streamline our fundamental policies and make the process more efficient. There is too much overlap and confusion currently among WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR. It will also provide a single focal point for discussing sourcing issues. Crum375 18:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Attribution]]

message: Per the dispute resolution page, I would like some people with a long standing knowledge of this policy to come and post a couple of comments on the RFC discussion at Talk:Make Love, Not Warcraft#RFC. An example of the content which is under discussion is this version of the page  which editors are claiming is acceptable. Thanks, Localzuk(talk) 20:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem on an article 

message: I should like a view on this. Nowadays, chess engines are routinely used to analyse games. If an editor adds chess engine analysis to an article I would argue that it is not OR because it is verifiable by another person who can simply run the same program. I should welcome views, please. BlueValour 15:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would disagree. Having used such engines to analyze many games, I am aware of all the many parameters involved, each of which can change the results, potentially. Yes, one could identify exactly each such parameter, but IMO for the reader who wants to verify or reproduce the results it becomes a non-trivial task. I think we are allowed to point people to published literature only; making them install and properly run specialized software packages (with the exact same version) to verify the article goes far beyond going to to your local librarian and asking for a copy of some book. There is a lot of skill involved in properly analyzing a game with an engine; sometimes you may decide to follow deeper on some branches because they 'look' promising or interesting - I think it's clearly WP:OR. Crum375 16:20, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In this specific case, the engine, the depth, the full length of the primary variation, and the evaluation were all cited. I think it may be difficult to verify, but it's not original research since the source is cited; and in general, use of chess engines to analyze games helps the project immensely, since extremely strong evaluations of positions are difficult to come by for free -- unless you are using a strong engine like Rybka. Besides, anyone can purchase this engine from the website for the approximate monetary cost of a large paperback book, with considerably less time spent locating it. ⟳ausa کui × 02:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I say it's WP:OR, and obviously so. To be sure of the same result you not only have to purchase the same software and set it the same, but you also need to purchase the same computer hardware, because these chess engines run better on better machines. Then after all that, the editor decides which analysis to publish and which not to publish. Rocksong 03:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not right. Rybka at the same depth will find the same evalutation, regardless of hardware. Better hardware would only mean she would reach that depth faster. ⟳ausa کui × 13:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Provided the parameters are specified then running the same chess engine would give the same result. On that basis the analysis is verifiable. BlueValour 03:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This still does not address my other objection, that the Wikipedia editor decides which computer analysis is relevant to run and include. Contrary to what Ryan Delaney says, good analysis is not hard to find for free, at least when it comes to significant games: there are a number of Grandmaster commentaries, free on the web, on the game in question (the final tie-break game in the recent FIDE World Chess Championship 2006). If these Grandmaster commentators do not think the computer analysis is relevant to include, why should we? I still say it's WP:OR. Rocksong 03:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is an editorial judgment that must be made in the case of incorporating information from any secondary source. Such disputes can be resolved on the talk page. ⟳ausa کui × 13:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: This is a disanalogy. Running chess analysis with an engine is not an experiment, any more than asking Grandmaster Ian Rogers to analyze a position is an experiment. Incidentally, Rybka's opinion is more verifiable than that of Mr. Rogers, since any person can have his own personal copy of Rybka, but there is only one Ian Rogers. ⟳ausa کui × 13:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Using a complex engine, with a complex algorithm, with a complex set of parameters and criteria, to produce results is WP:OR. To ask people to reproduce the results, as W.marsh stated above, is like the scientist asking others to reproduce his/her results. We are only allowed to present previously published data, and can only ask the readers to get a copy of that data from the library (or other source) and read it to verify we quoted our source properly. Anything more would become original work. Also, the very fact that you stop at a specific search level on the engine (say 14ply) is also WP:OR, since you are effectively telling the reader to 'trust you' that by going deeper on some branch the analysis won't change. Crum375 13:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The settings are all at default. Anyone can reproduce this with no special configuration. ⟳ausa کui × 14:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: None of this goes to why Wikipedia should be publishing information no one else cares to. No matter how easy it is to duplicate, it's still original work (as in, this is the first place it's being published). --W.marsh 15:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Interviewing? Reporting? That's not what we do here. Again, this is not a blog/newspaper, sorry to sound trite but we aren't going for original coverage, we're reporting what reliable sources have already published. Generating new information covering a topic is what reporters do, most Wikipedians are untrained high school and college students, generating original work like a blog would is exactly what our critics make fun of us over. By and large we aren't very good at it. We are good at writing articles based on reliable, published sources though, and that's what we should stick to. Plenty of stuff can be verified reliably, the question is whether anyone's bothered to publish it. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought... this is one of core concepts. --W.marsh 15:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: You have still not responded to my question above: how do we know that the specific search depth that you used is sufficient (e.g. 14 ply)? Aren't you basically telling the reader 'trust me, this depth is enough'? As I am sure you know there are many examples where going deeper (at any given depth) on one specific branch can totally change the analysis, sometimes from win to loss. So if you are making this decision for the reader, you are in fact presenting your technical opinion that "this depth is sufficient", which could be correct or not, however once you present an opinion, you are editorializing and that's definitely WP:OR. Crum375 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the reader wants to find out what the engine would say at a different ply, they can do that themselves. However, I'm not against a general agreement that, for example, the engine should have searched to at least depth 20 (or some other number deemed appropriate) before we accept its analysis. ⟳ausa کui × 18:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would definitely not go below 20, then, and 6 man EGTB endgame analysis. But I am still uneasy about the concept of editors running big computational jobs to analyze positions. I realize it is a mechanical type of work, but it's still significant work and is prone to errors. I would feel much better if the analysis were done off-wiki at some chess site (wiki-chess?) and then linked into from WP. Crum375 18:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I understand/appreciate that the goal is improving articles, and maybe this is a situation to "ignore all rules" since it seems harmless and we shouldn't avoid improving an article of principle. However I do feel like this approaches original work though, since no one else is apparently publishing this stuff. That Wikipedia should be the first to publish something, however verifiable it may be, should always be scrutized. --W.marsh 18:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely, and I appreciate your good faith in applying a strict scrutiny here. ⟳ausa کui × 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The purpose behind OR is to avoid physics-cranks and rewriting history.  None of those issues apply in this case.  We're talking about something that is fairly simply verifiable.  But aside from that, it is also rather trivial.  *All* commentary on chess that can't be solved (endgames can be solved completely because their are a finite number of moves remaining) will either have to have some sort of arbitrary analysis or no analysis at all.  Adding chess engine results *is* useful and I don't see the downside of including it.  So what if a chess engine is incorrect and there is a "better line".  It is irrelevent.  *All* lines are subject to this kind of change by mathematical necessity.  In terms of articles themselves, adding chess engine results serves to illustrate the point, so long as the article is not worded as follows: "This chess line is great for white because xyz chess engine gives it a +2.3".  But say that a book on chess or a chess player has published "this chess opening gives white a slight advantage" and we add that to an article.  Well then it makes sense to illustrate the point by giving a chess engine result.  The article is not asserting that the chess engine's result is correct, it is merely illustrating the point.  The chess engine's results are just mathematics.  Say I have a fictious "ramchessengine" that evaluates the same position at -3.7 because it assumes that White usually makes lousy moves and Black makes good ones. Does this matter at all? It doesn't argue against the original point that the chess line is considered to be good for white.  So long as the chess engine's result is not the *only* assertion, but instead illustrative of an existing point, I have no problem with its usage in this case. It should be noted that if someone even understands the chess engine results, then they already know that such results are generally arbitrary by definition. -- RM 18:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chess engine analysis 

message: Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reputable_publications seems to go back to the top of the page. --Espoo 10:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  broken link 

message: has been making major changes to this policy without prior discussion here.
Take a look at these extensive diffs since October 16th. SlimVirgin had zero edits to the talk page during that period, but made approximately 24 changes to the policy itself. 
These changes need to be carefully examined by others.  --John Nagle 07:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Skimming over the diffs, they all appear quite reasonable. Do you have something particular that you object to? Crum375 12:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policy changes by SlimVirgin 

message: Jesup, the singular is correct here. "... or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position."
To use serve is equivalent to saying: "Any man or woman who arrive on time get the job." SlimVirgin (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Serve/serves

message: I have reason to believe that this policy needs some review to discss the incorporation of factual original research. An editor recently put a tag on a very small article I began to write stating that it needed a complete rerwite because it didn't state sources etc. and it looked like original research, which it was. I have no problem with people questioning, and have no problem with knowing when I'm wrong, when somthing needs to be changed or when something needs to be done differently. I do, however, have a problem with this policy for a few reasons:
* The policy discriminates against people who don't have the means or the money to publish their own arguments, ideas, knowledge, etc. For example, if I had more money I could publish a book containing all of my ideas and cite it as a reference on wikipedia, although it would conform to wikipedia policy, I feel it wouldn't be reliable as my updated ideas as I'm always learning new things and discovering new stuff that would need to be updated. As I don't have the means or the finances to publish my arguments, ideas, etc, this policy states that my ideas, arguments etc, mean nothing and acording to this policy should not be included on wikipedia. I feel this is wrong.
* What is the definition of an expert and what gives a higher educated person more credibility over another person? Most of the the credibility it deserved, but never always, and education isn't everything, we can't forget that people learn more in day to day life and what they see than what they do during formal education, yet there is no method to categorise this level of knowledge. So why ignore it? You can't run away from uneducated knowledge, and it is vastly more valuable than any other form of knowledge. Education can only get a person so far, this is true in industry, careers and personal development. 
* I do agree that the minority wreck it for the rest of us, there are alot of people out there who think they're opinions, ideas and arguments, etc, are the factual ones, reality, when they actually are far from it. The reality is that no one, no one, regaurdless of their ability to conform to policy or their level of education or level of expirience is unfalible. Everyone should be questioned, and everyone should be heard. I wrote an article on a small suburb/town called Warrandyte in which I used a hell of alot of original research, combined with "acceptable references" to write it, it would have taken a person who has never been to or knows nothing about Warrandyte, a very long time to uncover published references to write the article in the level of detail I did, and even then they may have cited references that themselves had never been to the town and seen it with they're own eyes, therefore rendering it less reliable than my original research. I can verify my original research through the use of individual knowledge of the town, photographs, my own sources such as local newspapers, local groups such as historical societies, things I have seen with my own two eyes (for example, "many people canoe in the river all times of the year", why on Earth would I have to cite a source for that when I go there all tiems of the year and see them with my own eyes? My point is that if anyone has a problem with my original research, I will listen to them, take their critique seriously and with an open mind, and see if there is any merit in their critique, if there is, the content can be changed, if there isn't then it won't have to be. Slapping people with WP:OR tags I feel is just lazy way to say to people you don't trust their level of knowledge so this article should not be trusted. If you see an article that you don't believe should be trusted because they've used original research, ask them where they got their research from. And tell them what you think needs improving, what you disagree with, etc. If they then say to you no bugger you I'm right your wrong then they don't have a leg to stand on. But if they say sure what needs improving, lets get it right then whats the problem?
I apologise for my inability to spell and write with correct grammar to a highly educated level, if my parents had the money perhaps that would be different. And I apologise for not making clearer sense and organising my opinion so it is easier to read, but I figure, if you have taken the time to read this then perhaps you might understand what I'm saying, if you didn't read it then your attention span is too short to be discussing wikipedia policy.
Thankyou for your time. Nick carson 06:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Nick, regarding your first point, if you paid to have a book published, we couldn't use it as a source anyway because it was self-published, except in very limited circumstances. So money is not the issue. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess that raises the question, how do you proove to people that your intentions are not selfish? And why do people instantly assume that I am a selfish perosn and am only writing articles in an encycopedia for personal gain? Nick carson 06:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nick, the best thing is to use reliable sources whenever you write articles, and then no one can question your intentions. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but what do I do if I can't find a reliable reference for information I know to be true? Do I then leave that info out because of the policy? Sorry if I seem to be antagonistic, some things in this policy just don't sit quite right for me. Nick carson 07:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A rewrite is being undertaken at the moment which will hopefully deal with that issue. However, even under the rewrite, it's best not to add your personal knowledge over any issue that is likely to be challenged, and if another editor challenges an edit, you must supply a source for it — unless the person is being completely unreasonable, in which case ignore them; but I do mean "completely unreasonable." :-) SlimVirgin (talk) 07:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Best I go and find out what constitutes a reliable resource then! Glad to hear that issue is being delt with, and thanks for your response to my questions and comments, is it just me or does it seem like critique and feedback are hard to find on Wikipedia? I get you :) Thanks again! Nick carson 07:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It can be hard to get feedback on these issues, in part because we're asked questions like these a lot, and so sometimes people get a bit weary of answering them. However, reasonable questions like yours are always welcome. If you have problems getting answers in future, you might want to try the village pump. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 07:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Review of Policy

message: Cross posted to WP:RS, WP:OR and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. 
There is a dispute going on at Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. One user found primary sources, reliable journal articles, that said depo provera may do certain negative things. Another user is disputing this, citing original research. The argument, I guess, is that the 1st user is interpreting the source, and drawing conclusions not published anywhere else. The studies only dealt with rats (not humans), and there is nothing in the patient drug information (or any other way to verify the claims outside of the studies in question). The logic goes that making a connection that a study dealing with rats may effect the use of this drug in humans as a contraception is original research.  Furthermore, it may be pushing a POV that this drug is unsafe by mentioning these studies (that are not verified outside of the individual study, and not mentioned in patient drug information). I feel like I am repeating myself, sorry. The counter argument is that a) citing primary sources is a good thing b) the claims are cited and verifiable and reliable, fulfilling almost every wikipedia criteria for inclusion. So I guess there are two issues. Is using the information in this  manner original research? And is it giving undue weight to a minority view by citing obscure studies like this? Sorry if I am missing anything or misrepresenting a side. Please direct comments to Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. Thanks!--Andrew c 03:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Andrew, first of all, the article is not about "Depo Provera use in humans"; it is about the drug in general, and so any information about the drug that is published by a reliable source may be used. Even if it is a study with a minority conclusion, it may still be used. However, it should not be used to draw conclusions that the study itself did not draw. It should simply be described, sticking closely to what the authors of the study said, and going no further. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policy dispute regarding primary sources and OR (requested comment) 

message: Take any recent (or not-so-recent) computer game or Japanese comic-book character. Or a pop song. Look them up in Wikipedia. Original research, almost all of them, with one fan adding a fact or asserted fact and the next fan adding to that one. Leave aside all this tallk about "published, refereed research." You will find it lacking in many if not most WP articles. I don't want to be flip, but Get Real. Actually LOOK at any one of the Random Articles in the column at the left; go ahead — choose one. Chances are it will be almost totally based on Uncited Sources. If you find one that's NOT, list it here.
Sincerely, and with great good will, GeorgeLouis 06:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is quite true. It's also true that there are lots of grammar and spelling errors. But all of this only means that there is lots of work to be done, it's not a reason to give up, if that's your implication. By that logic, law enforcement should let all crime go unpunished because there's too much of it everywhere, and healthcare workers should let all disease go unchecked, etc. Crum375 15:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the thing to remember is that this is an encyclopedia - not a fansite. If we allow original research to stay then the site will simply be useless for its intended purpose. Personally, I think an all out cull of original research, unverified and unsourced material would do the site a huge amount of good. Ok, in the short term it would mean that the site would be a little more empty, but then we aren't here for quantity - we are here for quality.-Localzuk(talk) 15:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  Let's not use pokemon as a model for this site. Certainly not as a precedent for opening the door to OR. Most editors here have not even looked at a pokemon article.  Chances are if more started looking at them there would be a massive culling of material. However, i can't bring myself to spend time on those article when there are so many more important, in my opinion, stubs and clean up jobs on more academic topics.  Fancruft is fancruft, I'm sure people that read those articles on wikipedia will understand why they have so much OR. David D. (Talk) 16:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: This is not original research. Most of this information is clearly present in the original game, book, etc. It is not verifiable in secondary sources and it is a serious problem for creating a valid encyclopedia, but it is not the same thing as original research. —Centrx→talk • 17:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm pretty sure most people will disagree with you. David D. (Talk) 18:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Original research means "using Wikipedia as a journal" -- ie. you're not allowed to use Wikipedia as your first publish. You don't publish things on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is for things published elsewhere. The stuff you brought up usually has been published/discussed elsewhere. "No original research" = "Wikipedia is not a journal". 70.101.147.74 03:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  C'mon! O.R. is EVERYWHERE! 

message: Do census data and official crime stats constitute primary sources? Is it OK to say 'X is the 3rd largest city in country Y, according to the latest census results'. Or is it OK to say that 'city Y has the third highest crime rate according to national crime statistics.' Curtains99 09:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Official government reports are considered reliable, because they have gone through layers of fact-checking.  If the relevant report ranks cities by population, that qualifies as a non-controversial factual claim.  The primary/secondary source distinction is mostly there to get people to read competent historians, rather than writing their own histories from letters and land grants.  If the report does not rank, but you can trivially compute a ranking, the only objection I see is the possibility that you made a mistake, and the nuisance of checking up on it. Robert A.West (Talk) 09:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Raw data would almost certainly qualify as primary sources. For example, you can buy microfilms for 1930 and earlier census sheets filled out by the census takers who went from door-to-door. At the same time, the census bureau compiles the data and analyses them for trends; the analysis may be a secondary source. --Gerry Ashton 19:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You omit to mention that primary sources are fine for, "Descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge."  I think that census figures and rankings fall within the central intention of that proviso. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about Census data and crime stats 

message: I am intending to translate this page into Urdu for Wikipedia ‎Urdu. In this regard I have one question.
Does this policy cover those situations where a ‎‎new translation is created for foreign words/terminologies  for which the language doesn't already have any ‎words?
There are hundreds of scientific words and terminologies in English for which ‎there are absolutely no replacements/translations in Urdu. I have noticed some users at ‎‎Wikipedia Urdu are creating/inventing translations for such words and ‎terminologies. These translations have never been published before anywhere else. I ‎think it is a serious situation should be addressed at the highest possible level of ‎Wikipedia administration as, in my opinion, it is an open violation of No original research policy.
Szhaider 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO this should be addressed on the UR-WP NOR Talk page and agreed to by consensus, like all policies. My own opinion is that a translation should ideally have a source for the translation (of a word or term), e.g. from a dictionary, or sample translation of scientific papers, if any. In the case of no available source of any kind for the translation, I would go by simple logic and common sense. An alternative would be to insist on English (or some other foreign) words when no source for translation exists. But it boils down to what the consensus of Urdu speaking editors agree to, on the page I mentioned. WP is not about ruling by decree - we are ruled by common sense and consensus. Crum375 00:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have tried to address this issue but because of one certain member's arrogant behaviour and total disregard for anybody else and the policies, most of the members have backed off (constant contributers are less than 10). I had only one success where he translated a trademark into Urdu and I persuaded him to delete the translation and use the tranliteration instead. Only two members were able to confront him on this recent issue. That is why I need some kind of force or backing by some clarification of policies to gather consenus to stop him from ruthlessly creating translations without any citations. Szhaider 00:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like you are going about it the right way. If you have one editor who is not cooperating, there are ways to deal with that, through various conflict resolution methods, all the way to ArbCom. I am unfamiliar with the Urdu WP, but I am sure you have those mechanisms in place. I think you need to deal with the situation accordingly. It doesn't sound like a generic NOR issue - more like a specific (but common) content dispute. Crum375 00:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation(s) 

message: I am trying to begin the painful work of working through the backlog of pages tagged as OR. Most of them seem either incorrectly tagged or tagged without any further comments on the talk page. If anyone would like to help out it would be great because I really do feelthat the OR tag should be temporary and not something just slapped on the article because someone disagreed with it or didn't know how to tag it correctly. For example, a lot of pages are tagged as OR when the correct more indicative tag would be to tag it as unreferenced or containing weasel words. The OR tag is a pretty serious one and should be used with caution and an explanation why it was used. MartinDK 15:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Working through the backlog

message: Could someone please define this for me? Is this material someone submitted for publication themself, or a company publishing something themself, etc? Thanks! Q Jenkins 15:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's when you publish something that you have written yourself e.g. your blog, or when you send a manuscript you've written to a vanity publisher, and you pay them to turn your manuscript into a book. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: To learn about formatting, just look at what others are doing in the 'edit' mode. In this case, indent is via a colon ':' at the beginning of the line. Regarding the self-published manual, if it's published by the author/inventor or a program or device, it would be acceptable as a source in an article about that program or device, per WP sourcing policy. Crum375 16:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some companies have a good system to publish high quality publications, and can be considered reputable publishers. Their publications would not be self-published, even if they don't give the name of the authors. This would apply to user manuals for Microsoft programs, for example. Of course, not every publication by a reputable publisher is a reliable publication; letters to the editor of the New York Times are not reliable; publicity and advertisements on the web site of a reliable publisher may not be reliable. --Gerry Ashton 19:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that you have to be anywhere near MS for your manual to be an acceptable source. Even if you are the smallest software publisher on earth, a tiny garage operation (let's say), if your product has a WP article (i.e. its notability was properly established), the instruction manual could be used as a reference about the software. This is equivalent to our ability to use a self-published biography by an author as a source for his/her own article, as it relates to him/herself. If the claim is controversial, we would have to phrase it carefully. If it maligns someone or something, we may want to avoid it altogether, unless properly sourced elsewhere. So it's not the size of the corporation, it's the way we use the source that is important for self-publications. Crum375 20:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is that when an organization uses a reliable editorial process to produce a publication, that publication is not self-published, it is published by a reliable publisher. The parts of the policy about self-published material simply don't apply. As for how big an organization needs to be to be a reputable publisher, it need not be nearly as large as Microsoft, but one person isn't enough. --Gerry Ashton 20:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it depends on the situation. Yes, a large corporation would have more eyes going over its publications than a small one or an individual, but there could still be clear conflict of interest, as all those extra eyes are still paid by the corporation, hence not necessarily neutral. So it depends on the specific item that is being sourced from the publication, and its controversiality or lack thereof. In any case, size is not a determining factor. A couple of layers of very few neutral editors would trump a brigade of loyal company employees towing the corporate line. Crum375 20:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question Regarding Self Publishing

message: Hey everyone.
Just wanted people's opinion on an issue about WP's OR policy. I am currently preparing an article on Erdheim-Chester disease. Unfortunatly, due to the rareness of ECD, there is no widely accepted treatment. I have presented the treatments that have been tried, with varrying levels of success. There is also some case studies available that discribe various treatments and their levels of success for a particular individual. This could be considered OR, however, I feel that it would be useful to the reader to add, for example:
"Two patients were reported to respond to prolonged therapy with vinblastine and mycophenolate mofetil (Jendro et al., 2004)." Is there a way to disclaim that treatements for ECD are still under research and there is no consensus amongst physicians? I'd prefer to add the information and disclaim it, than simply leave it out. Let me know. All the best! -- 17:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that anecdotal information per se, when reported in an otherwise reliable and verifiable source, is original research. Of course the information has to be properly presented as anecdotal and/or of limited statistical significance, and the conclusions cannot be any more than what is in the source. Crum375 17:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to clarify, although anecdotal evidence per se, when reliably and verifiably reported, is not automatically excluded, the usual strict requirements for scientific or medical sources, such as reputable peer reviewed journals, are still in place. And these strict sourcing requirements are even more stringent if the scientific or medical claims are 'exceptional'. Crum375 18:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  OR vs. deficit of research 

message: Newspaper accounts are primary sources. An analysis of an event, on the other hand, is a a secondary source. From secondary sources (my highlight):
An example of a secondary source would be the biographyof a historical figure which constructed a coherent narrative out of avariety of primary source documents, such as letters, diaries,newspaper accounts, and official records. It would also likely utilizeadditional secondary sources (such as previously-written biographies)as well. Most, but not all, secondary sources utilize extensive citation.
I corrected acordingly ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newspaper accounts 

message: Are my statements at User talk:Route 82#Re: New Jersey Route 60 correct - that a detailed map of a route that was only proposed in general terms is just as bad as a detailed description? --NE2 00:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This edit that you removed is certainly original research if no source can be found for it. As for the map, it depends on who produced it. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He made it; he has a whole "fanfic" about the highway that he was adding as an external link. --NE2 01:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Image:Vineland 55-60.jpg]]

message: The policy provides (apparently as guidance rather than a hard and fast rule) that "edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge". This guidance is regularly, and quite correctly not adhered to. For example, a firsthand report of a sports match published in a newspaper is regularly used to evidence the score and what happened in the game, even though those without the specialist knowledge of that sport would not understand it. From a primary source saying that the result of a Gaelic football match was Team A 2-13, Team B 1-17, it is perfectly reasonable for those writing on Gaelic football to conclude Team B won - yet that's not clear at all if you know nothing about Gaelic football. From this scorecard it is reasonable for someone who knows about cricket to conclude that Jim Laker had an absolutely amazing match. But someone unfamiliar with the game may question why that is so if he only scored 3!
I suggest changing the text so that it better reflects actual (quite reasonable) practice. Maybe "edits that rely on primary sources should only make claims that can readily be deduced by anyone with specialist knowledge in the field"? jguk 17:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Jguk is right, that anything but a direct quotation could be impossible for a non-specialist to compare to a source in some fields. But if this change is made, then the rule is the same for primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, so just drop the whole sentence. --Gerry Ashton 17:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I know in practice no-one's going to stop our articles using primary sources that require some knowledge to interpret them from being used. It would wipe out too much good work that's going on. Plus it's somewhat perverse to say, yes we have a primary source that is reliable and easily understood by those who are knowledgeable in that field, but as someone who knows nothing about the subject in hand won't understand it, we won't use it. It's just that the sentence "edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge" does not reflect what current (and past) WP practice is. It should either change so that it does reflect practice (as I suggest), or be deleted in full (as Gerry Ashton suggests). jguk 18:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I disagree. The formulation reflects current understanding about primary sources. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are saying that if we have a primary source that we have assessed as being reliable for a claim that we decline to use it if someone totally unfamiliar with the subject will not be able to understand it, and yet if we have a secondary source that we have assessed as being reliable for a claim we are quite happy to use it even though someone totally unfamiliar with the subject will not be able to understand it? I really don't see this distinction being made anywhere on WP (and indeed a large proportion of WP:Cricket's articles would disappear if this approach was enforced as people totally unfamiliar with the sport will not be able to understand scorecards, the laws of cricket as published, press releases from the International Cricket Council, press (ie eyewitness) reports of matches, etc. etc.) jguk 19:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are  missing the point. Please re-read (my highlight): "should only make descriptive claims that can be checked". It is not about  the ability to understand, rather, about the ability to  check. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliance on primary sources 

message: I propose that we add a section that says:
:Do not cite sources that you have written yourself. There are no exceptions. --Ineffable3000 23:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many exceptions. If you wrote a scientific paper and it got published  in a respectable peer reviewed journal, you may cite it. Similarly if you are a journalist and write for a mainstream newspaper you can cite it. Same for a book that you wrote and got published by a big respectable publisher, photos you took and got published by respectable media etc. etc. Crum375 00:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: See relevant guidelines of WP:AUTO and WP:COI. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly conflict of interest and neutrality and all other WP policies would have to be adhered to, but there is no blanket prohibition of sources that a given editor wrote or created. Crum375 00:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I thinl that we have exhausted the discussion. YT content should not be linked to unless there is a very specific need to do so. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: That is one viewpoint. The consensus has long been, however, that self-citation is viewed with suspicion but allowed. Youtube can be linked, but it's a rare work indeed on YouTube that is both notable/authoritative and not a copyvio (exceptions include things like videos intentionally published on YouTube for exposure or advertising purposes, etc.) Deco 00:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Deco, there are videos uploaded to YouTube under agreement with with news organizations, studios, and manufacturers. These may be OK to link to. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: You are pushing this to an extreme. WP:EL is a guideline and is applied at the discretion of editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't see any conflict here. There are 2 critical policies: WP:V and WP:C. Including a source from YT would violate at least one, and possibly both, most of the time. There are almost no cases where both would be satisfied. This is the same as linking to any old blog or personal web site - 0 verifiability of the contents, regardless of what they seem to be, and very possibly copyvio in many cases. Therefore, it makes ample sense to delete all such links a priori. In the very few cases, if any, where it can be proven that a YT link is acceptable, we can deal with it on a case-by-case basis, like any blog or personal web site. This becomes even more critical in cases of WP:BLP, where the sources and links need to be of extra high quality. Crum375 03:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is my understanding as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that everyone has been extremely patient with you on this. Repeating "you are wrong" does not make you to be right. The arguments presented are quite clear and well grounded, so I would suggest that you take this to the Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) so that other editors can comment and hopefully be better at clarifying this for you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Cindery, I don't think either Jossi or I have any bias here. The issue is fairly simple: verifiability. Everything else follows from it. There is no way to prove verifiability on YT, or any similar personal web site or blog, as there is no editorial board controlling its content. Hence, any claims to copyright status become unreliable, as well as the content itself. Again, YT is no different than any personal web site and blog, which are  clearly not verifiable or reliable sources. If we allow YT, we might as well allow everything and become one more web forum. I don't think there is any consensus here to subvert our main mission, which is to become a reliable encyclopedia. Crum375 13:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One small point.  It is not verifiability that is the issue, as anyone can verify that a source is on YouTube and states or shows what it shows.  Verifiability is at heart, can someone else, independently confirm, that such a source shows or states what it shows or states.  Verifiability has nothing at all to do with truth.  Your real issue it seems to me, is, is the source reliable.  That is, does it make an attempt, to reveal the "truth" as it knows it or as its underlying source states it.  Again the "truth" (in quotes) is not the Truth in capitals.  We always need to be aware of the distinction.  We can certainly report here, that a YouTube by Y shows X, as long as we can confirm or have a valid belief that Y is a reliable source.  YouTube is not a source, it is the underlying author who is the source. Wjhonson 17:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One might argue that if a source is notorious for violating copyright laws, a reader who respects the rights of authors would make a modest effort to determine if the source was in compliance with copyright laws, and if it was not, would not view it. If a source is one that readers who respect authors would refuse to view, then it is not verifiable except by readers who don't care about authors. --Gerry Ashton 17:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: A YT source is not verifiable simply because it is generally an individual with a web page who can change the content on that site at any instant at will to say anything, with no editorial supervision or corporate oversight or any other legal restriction. This is very different from a respected official site of some reputable news organization (for example) that stands behind its reports, or a respectable publishing house that has many layers of validation and fact checking before publishing information to the outside world. If the article is in state A at a given time, it can be in state B 1 millisecond later. If it says it's quoting or showing a statement by person A, it could easily be doctored - there is nobody verifying that the person is really A and those are the original undoctored words. In short, YT is just like a personal web page or blog, with 0 validation or verification - it does not meet WP:V - what one editor sees at moment X can be very different the next moment when another editor clicks on it to 'verify' it, plus the statement made on that page is totally unverified and quite possibly a forgery. Crum375 00:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Hey, hey... please... Material in YouTube that is uploaded under license by a news organization, a studio or a record label, is OK. But all other content uploaded by individuals is not verifiable, not reliable, and not to be used in Wikipedia to support any claims in any articles. The use of YT in external links is also very questionable, and should be assessed in a case by case basis. Now, if you disagree with that, then go back to EL and make proposals to change the wording. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: YT is equivalent to a personal web site or blog. I fully agree with Cindery there. And WP generally forbids linking to such sites, except in some very limited cases. A web site belonging to a reputable organization has an oversight mechanism that verifies/validates the contents at all times, by definition. Such a site, e.g. cnn.com, may be linked into as source. OTOH, a personal site contains random unverified data and clearly does not meet WP:V - every click on it may yield another bogus or just totally unvalidated version, with no editorial control whatsoever. If WP were to rely on such personal sites, it would become one more online forum, not a reliable encyclopedia. Crum375 02:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I think you have it reversed. A personal web site or a blog is considered unreliable and unverifiable due to its total lack of editorial controls. Hence it is unusable as a WP link except in some very special cases. So the rule is that you can't use it, the very few and rare exceptions need to be argued and supported in a special way. So by default, all personal web pages and blogs, including YT which is equivalent, are unacceptable and stay out. Crum375 03:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: You are implying that evidence provided from a personal web site or blog is 'reliable until proven unreliable', whereas the WP rule is exactly the reverse. We assume that any evidence on a personal web site or blog, that has not undergone a formal 'publishing' process by a respectable editorial board is hopelessly tainted and can only be used in some very limited cases. This is not only YT or video. By your argument, we can take any personal web site, containing anything, and use it as source until someone proves it's wrong. WP does not work this way. We must start out with verifiable and reliable sources, and those are sources that have been vetted and published by respectable and reputable entities. If we followed your proposed sourcing rules, WP would be just another online forum, not an encyclopedia. Your argument flies in the face of the sum total of our sourcing and linking rules. Crum375 04:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cindery, I think you need to know when to stop. Please listen to the arguments made and contemplate the possibility that your understanding of policy may be a bit off. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  There is no such "prohibition". EL is a guideline and it evolves with time as new challenges surface. I invite you to bring the discussion at WP:EL. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed amendment 

message: I have a question regarding a possible conflict between WP:NOR and WP:copyvio (and I apologize if this question has been raised and answered before - it's not in the current NOR article or talk page, from what I can see).  If one is creating an article about a novel, such as my recent The Antipope article, how is it possible to insert a synopsis of the novel that is neither OR (if one writes it oneself), or copyvio (if taken from a "reputable" source)?  Would this case be an exception to the NOR policy?  Thanks in advance. Carre 20:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In practice, most editors seem to think this policy doesn't apply to plot summaries.  If there has only ever been one plot summary written, and this may be the case with some novels which only the publisher has ever gone to the effort of describing, and one wants to follow a strict reading of NOR, one may well be restrained to selectively quoting that one summary, with the result of our summary being very short.  Of course, if you can locate a number of different plot summaries, this problem goes away.  Jkelly 20:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Why not simply cite the work of fiction? Spoo, a featured article, includes references to episodes. --NE2 20:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synopsyes of novels 

message: Hi.
I've noticed these:
*The prohibition against original research limits the possibility of an editor presenting his or her own point of view in an article. By reinforcing the importance of including verifiable research produced by others, this policy promotes the inclusion of multiple points of view in an article. Consequently, this policy reinforces our NPOV policy.
*"If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research."
For the first, one can include multiple points of view even if one is not verifiable, so this (WP:NOR) to me sounds more like an issue of verifiability and not neutrality unless we are saying that if it's unpublished it could therefore be simply a personal opinion. Saying it "promotes the inclusion of multiple points of view" doesn't seem to make much sense, rather it might be better to say "promotes the inclusion of only verifiable, attributable points of view" or something along these lines as it doesn't just promote the addition of any ol' POVs.
For the second, this sounds more like Notability, as in order to "belong" in Wikipedia all that is needed, really, according to WP:V is publication in citable, and ideally, reliable sources, and "original research" as defined in this very policy page (WP:NOR) means "unpublished material", not how many people hold the viewpoint. Then again, I could be wrong... 70.101.147.74 03:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that both these statements are suspect on this page. I'd add the note that NPOV is not the same as multiple points of view. Better to just remove them - the existing policies cover them just fine. Deco 04:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change needed? Also, a question 

message: Part of the project page used to say that a journalist could be a secondary source.  For the purposes of wikipedia, no person can be a source, whatsoever.  A person is not verifiable, only their work is.  So a person is not a source.  The interview, the article, the book, is a source, but a person is never a source.  I cannot imagine the horror of citation to "Mr John Brown at Rutgers" and then editors having to call him up to interview him to verify the article.  That would be an absolute nightmare, not to mention eminently impossible to achieve.  I strongly hope that others agree with my position, that only works are sources. Wjhonson 07:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points.  At best people could be considered primary sources, but our definition of primary sources includes transcripts of interviews.  I think the key point is that for us a "source" is some sort of text.  These texts are indeed produced by people, but it is the text that is the source, not the person him/herself. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 07:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think disagree with this. When we allow a blog to be used as a source, it's because we regard its author as reliable. While, strictly speaking, the blog is our source in the sense that it's the published material we refer to, it's the author of the blog who carries the reliability criterion, and therefore I'd say the person is our source. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is necessary in policies and guidelines to speak strictly. It is perfectly legitimate for authors in most other media besides Wikipedia to interview a person and report the results in an article. Because Wikipedia does not accept this widespread practice, our policies and guidelines should make this clear by never suggesting that a person can be a source for an article. --Gerry Ashton 02:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A person as a secondary source

message: Is there a consensus as to whether or not original research can be removed at any time? Taxico 08:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many people confuse "source-based research" with "original research".  They are not the same thing.  Source-based research is strongly encouraged.  You may remove original research at any time.  Your edit description should state it.  Personally, I recommend moving it to the Talk page of the article, so you and other editors can discuss it.  It might be that other editors will not concur that it is original research, and that procedure would seem the most non-confrontational way to handle the situation. Wjhonson 08:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good suggestion. Taxico 08:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing original research

message: Please see discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#The_first_sentence - it effects the first sentence of this page too. --Tango 00:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First sentence