Talk:Flag of Bhutan

message: Flag description taken from The CIA World Factbook entry on the flag of Bhutan, with minor changes.  Note that the CIA text is public domain.  --Dbenbenn 09:28, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: The article doesn't mention that the red and yellow as depicted in the image of the 2nd flag are reversed from the 1st and 3rd.  Is the image accurate?  Otherwise, why were the color positions switched?  The description of the 2nd flag ("the red spreads from the base and forms the 'fluttering' end") makes it sound like the red should be on the bottom. Elphion (talk) 20:41, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Resolved -- see Correct colors etc below.  Elphion (talk) 20:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversed colors in 2nd flag 

message: The reference glossary says "Fimbriation It is a narrow line separating two other colours in a flag." The description and picture do not show any Fimbriation between the red and yellow sections. If it exists, what colour is it?  jnestorius(talk) 21:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Resolved -- see Correct colors etc below.  Elphion (talk) 20:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fimbriation 

message: This article states that "the upper triangle is yellow and the lower triangle is orange" (this text appears to have been sourced directly from the CIA factbook).  However, to me the upper triangle looks more orangey (or a dark yellow at least), and the lower triangle is red.  The comments in some of the threads above also refer to a red section.  So is it really yellow and orange; is it orange and red; or is it yellow and red? Bazonka (talk) 11:15, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Resolved -- see Correct colors etc below.  Elphion (talk) 20:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colours of triangles 

message: The following discussion is copied from the Humanities Reference Desk  (sub November 20, 2009  ).  Many thanks to User:Grutness for checking into this.  The incorrect image of the Second Flag  appears to have been created by Orange Tuesday -- I'll ask him if we can get an updated version.  Elphion (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) During the 1950s, Bhutan's flag seems to have shown the darker triangle at honour point (i.e., upper hoist), at least according to Flags of the World. I will check with their mailing list, though, since the text on their Bhutan page makes no mention of this change; 2) There has never been any fimbriation on the Bhutanese flag to the best of my knowledge. Flags of the World's Bhutan page suggests that the term "fimbriation" was incorrectly used by the Bhutanese authorities to simply refer to the join between the two coloured fields; 3) The colours are open to much debate - a quick glance at the FotW page makes that clear enough. The colours were initially listed as "yellow and red" with no further specification, have been interpreted as everything from yellow and maroon through to two shades of orange. According to FotW, the "red was changed to orange by royal command in 1968-69". Some countries (probably Bhutan included) do not specify exact shades for the colours on their flags, but some form of yellow and orange - probably a deep saffron yellow and a reddish or brownish orange - are about as close to official standard colours (no pun intended) as you're likely to get. Grutness...wha? 23:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I posed the question at FOTW, and got several responses. It appears that the image there (which may be the initial source for many of the red-over-yellow flags) was based on a mistranslation of the official Bhutanese description of the flag. It was initially - incorrectly - translated as "The yellow spreads from the summit to the base and forms the fluttering end." The correct translation, as shown at  reads "The yellow spreads from the summit to the base while the red extends from the base and forms the fluttering end." So it seems as if yellow over red (or a lighter shade over a darker shade, at least0 has always been the standard. A further comment added numerous online sites showing images of the actual flag in use: , , , , , , . There's also a pdf of the United Nations' description of the flag here. (with thanks to FotW's Jonathan Dixon and Esteban Rivera). Grutness...wha? 22:30, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

text: The flag should be correct now. I'm glad we've cleared up this error. Orange Tuesday (talk) 15:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also according to that pdf, that second flag is supposed to be square. I'll go change that as well. Orange Tuesday (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for maintaining your many flag images -- they are beautifully executed.  Elphion (talk) 20:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct colors in the Flag of Bhutan 

message: This is a good article and top importance for WikiProject Bhutan. Is there still anyone working on the article beacuse it has potential for GA maybe FA if improved a lot? Spongie555 (talk) 22:59, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Just curious:  what changes do you think would improve it "a lot"?  (My own take:  the article depends almost entirely on the problematic CBS document for the evolution of the flag.  There is almost no other source for this history, but the doc does not appear to mesh well with the photographic evidence.  A more authoritative treatment would appear to require new sources.) -- Elphion (talk) 14:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never reviewed or writtien a GA but i agree it needs more sources. I can ask some other people to help you if you want. Spongie555 (talk) 23:12, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Or just change the sources. When you do quote about the actual legal code from 1972, I found it as a separate document on a government website. The biggest thing we should do now is make sure the sources actually say what they say. The 1972 legal code does not mention the finial at all, but according to the text here, it does. The 1972 legal code mentions only "two third of it must be kept as the width. For example, dimension such as 9 by 6. " when it comes to the ratio and does not mention any flag sizes. I will be working on this article, by request of Spongie555, to help get it to GA. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 17:54, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updates? 

message: Recent edits have gutted the careful description of where the information is coming from.  If this is being done as a result of the "GA review", then the review needs to reconsider the problem here.  There are essentially two basic sources of documentation for the early flags:  the CBS (Center for Bhutanese Studies) history of the flag, and black and white photographs of the 1949 flag.  The problem is that the CBS document is essentially our *only* early documentary source (and that needs to be acknowledged), but that its description of the 1949 flag does not entirely agree with the photos.  The current version says "Bhutanese documents does not [sic] contain photographs of the first versions of the flag" -- that's certainly more than we know (and it is in fact false:  at least one of the black and white photos came from the Queen Grandmother of Bhutan).  What is true is that the primary source, namely the CBS document, does not contain such photos.  It's important to make clear where our knowledge is coming from, and which source says what. -- Elphion (talk) 21:53, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize for only going part of the way with the edits and leaving the text in a confusing condition. To clarify, the modifications I made to the 1949 Flag section while conducting the GA review were the beginning of an effort to fix what came across as undue emphasis on one document. Let's make some revisions to this section to reincorporate some of what I removed, while also explicitly stating the importance of the document and photos as key primary sources (explaining why); this will justify the detailed discussion by framing these sources as the crucial documents they are. -- Lemurbaby (talk) 01:43, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made some revisions along those lines.  -- Elphion (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits hide the documentation difficulty 

message: The paper Flags over Bhutan by Michael Lupant, though it draws together a lot of interesting material, is not (so far as I can determine) a published source.  We should avoid citing it unless some bibliographic data (and in particular a reputable publisher) are forthcoming. -- Elphion (talk) 00:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I know it is being published in a congress report next year (because I am the guy publishing it). Most of the information is pulled from the CBS paper and some websites. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:42, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this document online somewhere? Orange Tuesday (talk) 15:25, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not until everything is published. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone took off the refernce from Lupant's paper just to say. Spongie555 (talk) 04:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am well aware. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Lupant has recently published a book on the subject (Symbols of Bhutan, CEBED, Ottignies, March 2011); I have bought it at the recent International Congress of Vexillology, but I only had a superficial glance at it right now.--12.187.228.2 (talk) 01:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Too bad I could not be in DC right now to pick up his book or at least read it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:56, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lupant's paper 

message: This sentence in the section Code of conduct makes no sense:  "The 1972 rules also state that each dzongkhag will fly the national flag; if no dzongkhag is present, the building of the head government officer will fly the flag."  The problem is that we don't know what a "dzongkag" is.  WP has an article Dzongkhag defining the word as meaning any of the twenty districts of Bhutan.  So far so good; but then "if no dzongkhag is present" makes no sense. (I would look up the relevant passage in the code of conduct, but the PDF will not download for me.) -- Elphion (talk) 23:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The relevant text is below:
"5. Admissibility of Hoisting the National Flag 
 
a)  Starting  from  the  capital,  every  dzongkhag  will  hoist  the 
national flag. 
 
b)  Where there are no dzongkhag, the national flag will be hoisted 
in front of the office of the main government officer. 
 
c)  If  officials  above  the  rank  of  ministers  do  not  reside  near  the 
capital,  they  can  hoist  the  national  flag  in  front  of  their 
residence. 
 
d)  In relation to the hoisting of the national flag by Bhutanese and 
foreign embassies, the ambassadors can hoist the flag according 
to their legal tradition."
User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So, the rule must mean something like the following?  "The districts (dzongkhag) of the kingdom are to fly the flag; and in areas not assigned to a district, the building of the head government officer will fly the flag."  The problem with this interpretation is that according to Districts of Bhutan the entire country appears to be assigned to districts (though perhaps this was not true in 1972?). -- Elphion (talk) 00:35, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess so? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 00:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe they ment a building like for example Rinpung Dzong instead of a district? Spongie555 (talk) 08:06, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The only time a building is mentioned is if a "dzongkhag" was not present. I think the legal language really needs to be updated, but until something is passed, we have to stick by this. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 11:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am primarily concerned that the ordinary reader won't have a clue what this is talking about.  Since we can't really do much to clarify it, beyond linking to Dzongkhag, I've replaced what we had before with the language of the rules directly.  We don't know just what they had in mind, so we are better off using their language rather than trying to interpret it.  (I also restructured this so that it is contained in its own paragraph.  That way we can remove it cleanly if it is judged to be too cryptic.) -- Elphion (talk) 15:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the CBS document, there is a footnote explaining that dzongkhag refers to the district headquarters (the building). I clarified this in the text. -- Lemurbaby (talk) 17:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dzongkag? 

message: There is some good information in the article linked below. Including some of it could help to enrich the information contained in this article.
http://www.kuenselonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=16483
:::Unfortunately, the link above no longer leads to the article, which appears to be no longer posted at Kuensel -- Elphion (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the picture of the flag in space in public domain? If NASA took the picture it might be in public domain.  Spongie555 (talk) 03:47, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The credit on the image is not NASA and I found nothing by using a .gov image search on Google. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 13:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that's too bad it would have been a good edition. Also would a image of the first flag like in the first source be in public domain? Spongie555 (talk) 21:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article about early Bhutan flags 

message: The history section has recently been tagged as OR.  I disagree: there are no conclusions there that are not in the original sources, except that the sources disagree, which is fair to point out.  Without some statement indicating that the sources are not consistent, we would be propagating misinformation. -- Elphion (talk) 21:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hearing no response, I'm removing the tag. -- Elphion (talk) 20:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research? 

message: Is the current dragon/druk on the current svg flag here on wikipedia the official one. I found that there is a more stylized druk, here and here. The image on the right also shows that the druk is different from what we currently have here. Any thoughts?--Hariboneagle927 (talk) 15:23, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Dragon on the Flag?

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Flag of Bhutan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110706162637/http://www.constitution.bt/TsaThrim%20Eng%20%28A5%29.pdf to http://www.constitution.bt/TsaThrim%20Eng%20%28A5%29.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120424024939/http://oag.gov.bt/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/National_Flag_Rules_1972.pdf to http://www.oag.gov.bt/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/National_Flag_Rules_1972.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110706163643/http://www.constitution.bt/html/constitution/articles/article_1st.htm to http://www.constitution.bt/html/constitution/articles/article_1st.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:23, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Flag of Bhutan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110320040746/http://www.judiciary.gov.bt/html/education/publication/crest.php to http://www.judiciary.gov.bt/html/education/publication/crest.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101012011301/http://www.bhutan.gov.bt/government/abt_nationalflag.php to http://www.bhutan.gov.bt/government/abt_nationalflag.php
*Added  tag to http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/about/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101004025504/http://www.bhutan2008.bt/en/node/204 to http://www.bhutan2008.bt/en/node/204
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110706162643/http://www.bhutan2008.bt/en/node/256 to http://www.bhutan2008.bt/en/node/256
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:50, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Apologies for being a newbie, but the rules for the use of the flag (reference 3) are dead. This appears to be the new reference: https://oag.gov.bt/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/National-Flag-Rules-1972-English.pdf Walnut Iguana (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference URL update