Talk:Portuguese Angola

message: I have put a POV notice on this article because it was clearly written from a non-neutral point of view in an attempt to retrospectively justify Portuguese imperial control of this part of Africa. 
For example the phrase "From 1764 onwards, there was a gradual change from a slave-based society to one based on production for domestic consumption and export." is a complete lie and fails to point out that Portugal resisted the abolition of slavery in it's African colonies until 1869 - more than a century later! It also fails to point out that the primary 'export' referred to was the black population, which was increasingly exported into slavery in the Americas - even despite the British navy's efforts to restrict the slave trade. However, even the inclusion of these 'details', would not hide the fact that Portuguese colonialism after the abolition of slavery continued to rely on forced labour and brutal systems of plantation and mining. 
I have also included a 'lacking references' notation. An example of sloppy, biased editing is the phrase 'the white population increased from 44,083 in 1940 to 172,529 in 1960. Where do these extremely precise numbers come from? Was there a census? Did it include a 'racial' question? What other 'racial' categories were in the census? How much of the total population took part in this census? Why is the only census information on this page about so-called 'whites'. Why were 'racial' categories included in this supposed census? Clearly, a 'racial' census indicates at least some level of racial discrimination (even it was only in the form of a census question). What other forms of racial discrimination existed in 'Portuguese Angola'? None of these questions are addressed by this ignorant article.
The Portuguese empire's violent opposition to basic democratic reforms (such as the rights to self-determination, to vote and to form political organisations) is never mentioned and, amazingly there is no section on the independence movement!
Given that there are already articles on Angola and the history of Angola, one has to question what is the purpose of this article? It includes large amounts of text that are identical to other articles dealing with the Portuguese empire indicating that it has been edited in a way designed to cast the violent, racist, repressive Portuguese empire in a good light.
Editors should therefore be mindful that this article has possibly been created and sustained by disgruntled Portuguese extreme nationalists with a nostaglic longing for the defeated empire. Ackees (talk) 06:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your recent edits, Mr. Ackees, strongly contradict the provided sources. What you have done is change a number of things in the article to the opposite of what they stated previously, without changing the sources whatsoever. This makes little sense, since it can only be justified if the source itself was originally incorrect, but this has not proven to be the circumstance per my checking.ElliotJoyce (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lacks neutrality, lacks references, factually inaccurate, pathetically weak 

message: Having over the last decades specialised in studies on Angola, I am a newcomer to WP. To my surprise, I have discovered the country is dealt with not only on a main page, but on several complementary pages as well. However, while my first reaction was to consider this as positive, I have since come to rather negative conclusions. On the one hand, not all articles (or sections of articles) meet WP standards in terms of quality, sources, neutrality etc., and some parts are simply bad. On the other hand, there is a stunning lack of consistency among several articles, in terms of facts and analyses. Also, they often either overlap  - or then leave out important points. The only solution seems to consist in overhauling all articles, without exception, and in this process deciding which ones are to be maintained autonomously, and which ones are better lumped together. I am not sure this is the best place to start this discussion. If it is not, is could be transferred to the discussion page of the main article. Aflis (talk) 11:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: For something so wide-ranging, one of the WikiProjects (I'm thinking Angola's) is probably best. This page certainly deserves to remain as a former state or state subdivision. Some of the other articles do overlap and/or suck, though. For example, the page on Angola's precolonial history is actually a history of its colonial-era history. — LlywelynII 00:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructuring the Angola-related articles 

message: This book from Cambridge U. Press has a good section on the establishment of Angola colony and how it was a shift in Portuguese behavior up to that point. At the time of its establishment, the Portuguese name was the Reino de Angola. Ideally, the other names in the lede should be clarified and include the original Portuguese names and explain the dates of the change. — LlywelynII 00:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Source for article expansion

message: Two remarks:
#The move did of course not resolve any of the serious deficiencies of the article, some of which have been discussed on this page.
#Much less does it resolve the utility of the article as such. Just to recapitulate: the subject matter of this article is treated in Angola, History of Angola, Angolan War of Independence, Slavery in Angola, and Angolan Civil War - thus in a total of six (!) articles. The logical solution would be to concentrate it in the corresponding section of "History of Angola". - The argument that it should be maintained as a seperate article by the same token as e.g. Kingdom of Congo, because "Portuguese Angola" was no independent polity, but a colony (whatever the official designation). And we are not coming out in favour of having seperate articles for the colonial history of all countries in Africa, Latin America, and Asia  - or are we??? -- Aflis (talk) 09:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I absolutely agree with one separate detailed article for every single former/historical colony, kingdom, republic, overseas province, khanate, Roman province, puppet state and so on. This is valid for the former political entities known as County of Portugal, Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic, the Republic of Texas, Vladimir-Suzdal or the Songhai Empire, as well as for the Cape Colony, Belgian Congo, British Somaliland, French West Africa or Manchukuo. Furthermore, it is obviously a well established editorial policy followed by this online encyclopedia and found in other literature. Smsagro (talk) 12:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

text: It would be nonsense to merge all these articles into one. Look at all other previous colonies that are now sovereign states, they have articles on their previous positions. Now, that doesnt change the fact that this article may not be the best it can be. We must work on this article, not destroy it. Thank you, Cristiano Tomás (talk) 19:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well said. —Cliftonian (talk) 20:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

text: It is ludicrous to make this article into a section in the larger History of Angola, which would be an oddity amongst the entirety of wikipedia. It would create a non-acceptable exception amongst the tens of hundreds of articles just like this one on previous colonies, countries, empires, etc. It is completely out of the question. Thank you, Cristiano Tomás (talk) 00:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Aflis, repetitions among related articles are a practically unavoidable situation. You find it in every "History of" article, as well as in almost all articles belonging to a given category or subcategory. Smsagro (talk) 10:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Aflis, the six articles you mentioned all have different focuses. Similar subject material will be mentioned over all of them yes, but they aren't duplicate articles. CMD (talk) 17:12, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am a little doubtful of the value of  "Colonial history of Angola" separate from this one.  IMO, those two should be merged, with this page as the main article, to be referenced from the "History of Angola", which should be just a general overview (with perhaps a generic analytical narrative) with links to denser pages with more details.  I think 1926-1974 should be primarily here, with the denser part of the Angolan War of Independence (1961-1974) being separated out into its own article.  If you an find reasons to include more dense articles from other eras during the colonial period, then they can be separated out, but this should be the hub of colonial-era Angola. Walrasiad (talk) 19:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move vs revision vs elimination 

message: I rewrote this (and removed the GREA coalition government statement):
"In 1972, the Portuguese National Assembly wanting to grant Angola its independence, formed a coalition government (GREA) with the liberation movements, and thus effectively changing Angola's status from an overseas province to an “autonomous state” with authority over internal affairs";
Who knows a reference for GREA (?) coalition before the Carnation revolution please? Were MPLA and UNITA involved in that coalition? Smsagro (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: All this is entirely erroneous. (a) The "late colonial" policy, started in 1962, abolished a number of basic legal provisions which discriminated black people (first and foremost the "Instituto do Indigenato"). However, the aim was by no means to grant Angola independence, but on the contrary, to "win the hearts and minds" of the Angolans, convincing them to remain permanently a part of an intercontinental Portugal. (b) Renaming Angola (like Mozambique) in 1972 "Estado" (state) was mere window dressing. It was part of a clumsy effort to apparently give the Portuguese empire a sort of federal structure, conferring some degree of autonomy to the "states". In fact, the structural changes & increase in autonomy were highly limited. (c) The government of the "State of Angola" was the same as the "provincial government", except for merely cosmetic differences of personnel & titles. Is was of course entirely composed of people that were part of the Salazarist establishment. (d) While this occurred, the guerrilla war against Portugal went of course on. The mere idea of having the independence movements take part in the political structure was absolutely and totally unthinkable (on both sides). (e) The GRAE (Governo Revolucionário de Angola no Exílio) was constituted in 1963 in Kinshasa, by the FNLA, in an attempt at claiming (on the international scene) the sole representativity of the forces fighting Portugal in Angola. (For a standard reference see John A. Marcum, The Angolan Revolution, vol. II, Exile Politics and Guerrilla Warfare (1962-1976), Cambridge/Mass. & London, MIT Press, 1978) -- Aflis (talk) 15:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Acceptance of independence before the Carnation Revolution

message: In my view, the article "Portuguese Angola" should not contain more than a very short description of the 1961-1974 war. The proper place to develop this description is the article "Angolan War of Independence", and a duplication does not make sense. On the other hand, "Portuguese Angola" is the place to develop the analyses of the "late colonial" period initiated by the incisive reforms of 1962. -- Aflis (talk) 15:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in favour of duplications when they are made to explore relevant content for the artcle. Wikipedia is full of that.Smsagro (talk) 16:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Angolan War of Independence 

message: To my mind, most of this quarreling over "correct" terms doesn't make much sense. To start with, "Portuguese Angola" is a misnomer. It was never an official term, nor commonly used. The official & common name has been "Angola" since the 16th century (although the territory is was applied to included in the beginning just Luanda & hinterland, then Luanda + Benguela + respective hinterlands, and the present territory from the 1920s onward only). "Portuguese West Africa" was a term which for some time was used by non- Portuguese, never by Portuguese. In the 20th century, the official term changed from colony tp province to state, but the common name continued all the time to be Angola. Conclusion: the article should be renamed "Colonial Angola". -- Aflis (talk) 22:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see what is to be gained there. "Colonial Angola" is no more official than "Portuguese Angola". I can see the usefulness of "Portuguese Angola" as it is clear and helpful to understanding. Don't assume readers known that "colonial" implies Portuguese  rather than English or French or Belgian.  In other historical articles, I will write and link to "Portuguese Angola" much more readily than I'd ever write "colonial Angola" (it is just too uninformative and awkwardly superfluous if already in a colonial-era topic).  I agree "Portuguese West Africa" is ridiculous (and misleading - more likely to be understood as Guinea-Bissau than Angola). "Portuguese Angola" is clear, informative, useful, and flexible, conveniently uncommitted to a particular official status (are you eager to witness edit wars about Angola being a "province" rather than a "colony"?). I am afraid I don't see the utilitarian gain of your proposal. Walrasiad (talk) 00:16, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war over terms 

message: ::Former polities, provinces, colonies, kingdoms, principalities, protectorates or states deserve their own article. It is a well established policy in Wikipedia even if you disagree. Cape Colony, Rhodesia, French Algeria, French Indochina, Nazi Germany, Kongo Kingdom, Colonial Brazil, British Raj and Lusitania are a few such examples. Evolife (talk) 15:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not sure I agree with you.  I don't regard this as an article about the history of Angola, but an article about an entity in and of itself.  In the same manner that I don't think the "Duchy of Burgundy" to be a subsidiary article about the history of the Upper Saone region. It is an article about an entity.  An entity which no longer exists, that is true, but an entity nonetheless, with defined institutional, political and legal contours. It is frequently necessary in many articles to refer to such an entity, e.g.  articles about diplomacy between England and Germany in the 1890s, or world coffee production in the 19th C., or a biography of a person who happened to have worked or lived there for a spell, or about a company that happened to bid for some mineral concessions there back in the 1910s, or about a ship that foundered near its coast, etc.  None of those articles are about the "history of Angola" per se, yet need to refer to the entity of "Portuguese Angola".  Does that make sense?   You seem to be a little too focused on the "vertical" linkages and overlooking the "horizontal" linkages. I agree repetition should be avoided and maybe there's a better way of redistributing the material.  But the existence of an article about the entity is essential.Walrasiad (talk) 23:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Portuguese Angola" as a historical entity 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Portuguese Angola's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bio":
From Holden Roberto: 
From Erik Gjems-Onstad: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 01:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Portuguese Angola]] 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:08, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Hello Wikipedia users and readers of this page, I am planning to edit the Sports section of this article.  While it is a good section I feel like it could user more information to help bolster the article.  Specifically I would want to add information on football and how Angola experienced it during colonial times.  I will add specific information on the recruitment and scouting practices that occurred in Angola during this time.  Also I will want to add how football was introduced and the general experiences of the African players.  I will also add more information about the players that came from Angola and their contributions to Portuguese football overall.  These changes will probably amount to around 50-100 words.  I plan on using the book, Following the Ball : The Migration of African Soccer Players Across the Portuguese Colonial Empire, 1949–1975. This book is written by Todd Cleveland and he is a professor at the University of Arkansas. He is a scholar in African studies so I feel that he is a credible author here. If anyone wants to comment or suggest anything about my planned edits please let me know; either on this talk page or on my talk page.
S4mon (talk) 22:12, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Planning to edit the Sports section of this page