Talk:Crate training

message: Does any other nation apart from America crate dogs?
Yes I know of many people in Australia who crate train their dogs.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.139.246 (talk) 08:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmmm. I'm intrigued by that response. There are no references there. I feel I have to attempt to balance it. I'm a 61 year old Australian. Had dogs all my life. Lived in the city and in the country. Never seen or heard of dog crates being used in this country. The only thing that looks like them might be the cages used to transport dogs to shows. HiLo48 (talk) 06:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I've seen many crates in Norway too. I find it hard to believe that this is a mostly American thing. --90.231.34.215 (talk) 23:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I presume it's because more dogs are left home alone these days as women have joined the workforce, but I can't find a source.Notarealhamster (talk) 09:09, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

text: Hi, I added your info, with some changes. (I don't read Swedish, so I'm just going by Google Translate) I removed the bit about "cruelty" as it's not in the source. Your numbers are for dog runs, I replaced them with the correct ones for dog "boxes".--Dodo bird (talk) 03:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: American only

message: Well, I live in Sweden and here it is expressly forbidden under the laws on cruelty to animals. I wrote a short paragraph on it, do you think it can be included under criticisms?: "In some countries, such as Sweden, it is illegal to keeps dogs in crates as it is considered cruelty to animals to keep dogs in confined spaces. Kennels are only allowed during travels, at the vet or on other special occasions and only if the dog is taken on a walk every three hours. If the dog is kept in an enclosed area at any other time even the smallest breeds must be allowed an area at least 65 square feet, larger breeds may need up to 215 feet." 
Carlib (talk) 19:26, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I added your info, with some changes. (I don't read Swedish, so I'm just going by Google Translate) I removed the bit about "cruelty" as it's not in the source. Your numbers are for dog runs, I replaced them with the correct ones for dog "boxes".--Dodo bird (talk) 03:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Sweden

message: This needs to be completely rewritten. It is wholly  in that it's entirely pro-crate training - "a crate-trained dog benefits the dog and the dog's owner in a number of ways" is, for instance, a completely subjective comment, and the rest of the article is just as bad. The "automobile" section is particularly poorly-written, and reads as nothing more than pro-crating propaganda. Furthermore, the whole article reads like a how-to guide to crate training, rather than providing information about it. Most of this article can be removed and, instead, the history of crate training should be mentioned, along with opposing views for and against the practice. Also, the fact that crate training is almost entirely an exclusively American practice deserves a mention. All in all, this is a really dreadful article that desperately needs improvement. (note: please stop deleting valid criticisms, Planetary Chaos)
:2600:8806:6000:47:CCC9:D69C:3948:57B8 (talk) 05:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite Needed

message: I agree with a lot of the above. While I don't believe it's necessary to pander to the people who think this is animal cruelty, it's equally wrong to make claims that are scientifically unverifiable. For instance, purporting that dogs become comfortable in crates as a substitute for their "den instinct" without a single reference to respectable scientific findings is a slap in the face of people looking for an honestly written article. Really, where in science are "instincts" proven. There are commonly seen behaviors for animals in the wild, but last time I checked, no one has ever interviewed a dog, and asked it WHY it's comfortable in a crate, only that it "SEEMS" to be.
I mean, if you want to talk science, there's evidence that dogs are susceptible to a condition called learned helplessness, and one could also conjecture that the reason why dogs are seemingly more docile in a crate is because of this. Scientifically, this conjecture is far more valid than what a "Sensible Trainer" may do, or what a dog "feels" in a kennel. Of course, I think most people would agree that dogs don't SEEM uncomfortable in kennels/cages, but how do you TRULY know? You simply can't. 
And that's just a single problem with point of view. Sensible trainers? Who are these trainers? "Toys and soft material for bedding in the crate make it more comforting for a dog or puppy." What journal was this in? There are a ton and a half of not just wholly unverifiable statements, but biased statements on what is "good" and "bad" in crate training. Almost every single bullet point is an opinion stated as fact, or uses training-related jargon/ideology as weasel words. 
The entire entry is completely not NPOV. While it certainly does seem as a good starter resource for people who want to crate-train their dogs, it certainly is not a good article on the subject as a whole.
I highly recommend creating a new article, naming it "Crate Training Methods" and have some sort of disclaimer, or using language, that tells the readers what's theory (animal behavior), and what is practice(crating methods). That would solve the entire problem of NPOV as well as allow the original intent of the article (which seems to be talking about, and promoting crate training) to be left mostly in its entirety.
In summary, I'm suggesting creating a new/moving this article and at least acknowledging that SOME people have a problem with crate training. If that wasn't the case, it wouldn't be necessary to delete valid criticisms. 
You guys can take this how you will, but I'll simply edit this later and make an article for crate training methods if no one else does.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.40.133 (talk) 08:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the den theory logic that lacks evidence. That does not mean that crate training doesn't work. I've removed the pro-den theory bit sourced to the Humane Society.--Dodo bird (talk) 22:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: I agree with criticisms

message: One challenge in getting people to crate train successfully is in getting over the idea that one is "locking up" one's dog.  The article itself should give some ideas as to why it's a good idea to have a dog who is comfortable and relaxed in a crate.  The thing to keep in mind is that almost all dogs are most relaxed in an enclosed place. My dogs prefer sleeping under a desk or a table--and if there's a long tablecloth over the table, all the better.  The small dog in the house loves to crawl under the bookcase headboard of the bed rather than sleeping on the open floor. One dog liked sleeping in the closet.  The psychological key for the human is to realize that one is simply training the dog to use a controlled crate rather than one of their own choosing, just as one trains them to sit, lie down, or stay under control rather than wandering around uncontrolled at all times with behavior of their own choosing.  The crate should never be used as a harsh punishment. It should be a safe place for comfortable relaxing, and in that context can occasionally be used for a "time out" in training.
Let one converted dog owner tell her story. (That's me.)  When I planned to go to my first dog agility event (not just training at the training facility), I discovered that it was not practical to have my dog on a leash on my wrist at all times. It was a long day, there were other dogs everywhere (and not all of them perfectly behaved), I had things that I needed to do without my dog and there were places where my dog was not allowed (e.g., walking the course ahead of time; cafeteria; restrooms...).  Tying the dog up somewhere wasn't practical--other than there being nowhere to tie the dog, even a portable stick-in-the-ground post left the dog exposed to other dogs, other people, object flying in their direction (thrown toys, things blown by the wind, etc.).  It just wasn't even an option, especially in crowded conditions with only a few feet of space for each person to set up in.  
Plus, in trying to keep the dog with me, he never lay down, never relaxed, was always alert and on guard.
So with great reluctance, not wanting to "lock my dog up" in a crate, I purchased the largest metal exercise pen that I could find--I think about 4 feet by 4 feet.  Here's what he did:
Stood up and leaned against the side closest to the door. All day. Sometimes he sat. Mostly he stood up, watching everything that was going on.  Eventually I figured out that, if I draped a sheet over the top & sides of the pen, leaving only the front open, he would lie down--against one side of the pen--and sleep off and on.  
Huh, so I was lugging around this heavy exercise pen and occupying 16 square feet for a dog who was occupying no more space than all of the other dogs comfortably resting in their crates.  So after a year and a half I broke down and bought a crate and taught him what a fun place it was.  So, when put into his crate (after his first run of the day, before which he NEVER relaxed), he'd immediately relax, lie down, get comfy, snooze, stretch his legs out.  
I was converted.
Since then, I've found that crates are useful almost anywhere I go with my dogs; we've been invited to participate in a wide variety of events. Sometimes we're backstage, where there are 20 or 30 dogs in a space about 50 feet long. You have to have the dogs in crates in that situation.  My assorted dogs have had to stay at the vet's for a variety of ailments over the years, and the vets always like them because they don't fight about going into the crates, they don't paw or bite endlessly at the doors, they wait for a release before barging out of the crate, and they relax once they're in there.
In the car, a strapped-in crate is probably the safest way to transport dogs. (Some of my dogs use harnesses instead, but I believe they'd be safer in an accident in a crate.)
At home, I acquired a dog who really does not like small children.  After a few thousand good games of fetch, he goes right into his crate, where I can close him in and he can relax because he doesn't have to be on guard against the small children--and I can relax because he's not on guard against the small children.
I have an extremely energetic younger dog. When she can't manage enough self-control to be around guests, she can go into her crate. When she was much younger and I didn't know what she might pick up and chew up, I could put her into her crate while I worked at my desk and neither of us were stressed about life, the universe, and everything.  
Most dogs sleep most of the day anyway--if you're home a lot and not active, just watch: I believe that 18 hours or more of a dog's day is spent snoozing. That's even for energetic, athletic dogs.  They could just as easily be snoozing in a crate as under your feet at your desk.
The end.  
Elf | Talk 21:46, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Locking up the dog

message: I did a lot of review and rewrite in this article. Three references were either broken or inappropriate:
Removed link to: http://www.freewebs.com/bringing-pet - no content on that page
[http://www.gundogsonline.com Gun Dogs Online – commercial link , no info
http://www.doggydvd.com Dog Training Videos – broken link
I removed how-to content and toned down POV content about how wonderful crates are, about how dogs felt in crates and other info that cannot be substantiated. 
I added a section of Objections since crates are not universally accepted as beneficial. 
Please review these changes and discuss prior to reverting them. I tried to maintain NPOV but so much of the content was either POV, how-to, or pointless, so the article is shorter. Additional referenced content would be welcome. If there is concnesus, we could probably also remove the NPOV and How-to boxes. Thanks Bob98133 (talk) 14:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reworked article 

message: The Stockholm criticism referenced the Lindsay book, but linked to a Peta advocacy page that elaborated on his book, rather than a direct reference to the book itself.  The author of the advocacy page states in her biography "As for my qualifications to write about dog training and holistic medicine, I have absolutely none, so please take everything that you read here with a grain of salt. My opinions stem mostly from my own experiences with dogs, but I've also done a fair amount of reading on these subjects."  I have corrected. Wikifier (talk) 15:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replaced link to Peta with Lindsay direct source 

message: I have removed most of the article; the material I removed seemed to be advocacy and/or howto, to me. I'm not sure what to do with the objection section - the long block quote seems to be overdoing it, especially since the article is now much shorter. Perhaps the quote should be edited down? I couldn't really see how to do that. I think it would be appropriate to add a section of "uses" or "claimed benefits", to balance the objections, but I think it should be kept as short and concise as possible. Brianyoumans (talk) 03:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal

message: I agree with a lot of the crtiticisms above - the NPOV was severely lacking.  The article contained a lot of poor grammar, misinformation and generally lacked direction (except to some website flunking dog dvds or some other products!)
I've rewritten in a more appropriate, less chatty tone and included some links to credible websites endorsed by the SPCA (to refute an earlier editors remarks about animal cruelty)
The article remains incomplete and still requires more work.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Petllover1 (talk • contribs) 20:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewritten Again 

message: There are several instances of this article that use a pro-crate training tone of voice, and yet there is no evidence to back this up. In fact, several times previously it is mentioned that there is no evidence for it. Any claims need to be backed up, or at least tagged with a "citation needed". The sheer fact that someone says something is not enough to support it.
This article reads like a confused person debating with themselves. Kinghfb (talk) 16:00, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the den theory logic that lacks evidence. That does not mean that crate training doesn't work. I've removed the pro-den theory bit sourced to the Humane Society.--Dodo bird (talk) 22:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradictory content

message: Substituted at 12:23, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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