Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Archive 4

message: (Jpatokal's suggestion): "Place and personal names should of course be offset with a space, and as these are proper names all words are capitalized." 
Insert a hyphen before bo, dera, do, in, ji, ; write the English word "shrine" in place of jinja and jingu but hyphenate and write gu, sha, taisha without "shrine."
Do not write "temple"; do not write English translations of names in article titles (where appropriate, they are welcome within the article, e.g. "The Temple of the Golden Pavilion"). Do not prefix "-san" names (e.g. do not write "Kinryu-zan Sensoji"; simply write "Sensoji"); however, do prefix "-san" names (山号) when — and only when — necessary to distinguish famous temples of the same name and provide a disambiguation page, for example, Kaiko-zan Hase-dera and Bu-zan Kagura-in Hase-dera. (See :ja:長谷寺 and this link.)
Here are examples of the proposed style:
Gokuraku-bo; Kiyomizu-dera; Sanjusangen-do; Sanzen-in; Kinkaku-ji; Hikawa Shrine; Meiji Shrine; Kamakura-gu; Inari-sha (other than Inari-taisha); Inari-taisha
: Doesn't the proposal above say that the last one should be Inari Shrine? Jpatokal 11:10, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me, although I could be swayed to eliminate the hyphen (i.e. Hasedera instead of Hase-dera).  The thought of a page called "Bu-zan Kagura-in Hase-dera" with three hyphens seems like a bit of hyphen-overload.  But this is a complaint on just aesthetic grounds, and there are many examples where having a hyphen makes it easier to read (Inari-taisha vs. Inaritaisha).  We'll have to remember to do a few redirects for each page to make sure all of our bases are covered. CES 12:14, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Alternatives include geographic labels, e.g. Hase-dera (Kamakura, Kanagawa), Hase-dera (Sakurai, Nara). Fg2 21:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Here's a variation on the theme. Fg2 02:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

text: It all makes sense and is well thought out, but the only gripe I have with it is that you're forcing something that doesn't seem to want to be forced. I don't think there is an elegant way to standardize this, because one method makes the names unrecognizable to many Japanese people, and another method is difficult to understand for people who don't know anything about Japan. Then again, it's not all THAT elegant, what with the exceptions being made for mountains (at least Mount Fuji) and shrines. Freshgavin 05:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I like the basic idea a lot and doubt we'll be able to come up with a better compromise, but I'd prefer to do away with the hyphens.  Freshgavin, note that this is only for temples/shrines, mountains are not covered (if they appear in the temple's name, they're treated as parts of a proper name). Jpatokal 11:10, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

text:  Point taken, but I think that in itself is an issue isn't it? Having a different standard for temples and mountains (or rather ... elevated landmasses -  -;;) seems a bit messy to me. Anyways, I will support it (though I still don't agree with using 'shrine' instead of 'jinja'!) because it's certainly better than nothing, and I'm not sure if there is a better way to implement this anyways. Freshgavin 00:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal for titles of articles on temples and shrines

message: So let's put the proposal above to a vote!  Sign your name in the appropriate section below.  Is one week starting now enough? Jpatokal 11:10, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: One week (and then some has) has passed.  Nobody dislikes the proposal and hyphens win over non-hyphens.  Time to make it official! Jpatokal 05:26, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Written, let's get cracking (:Category:Shinto shrines and :Category:Buddhist temples should keep us busy for a while).  Let's also use this chance to move everything to correct Unicode names and move the temples in :Category:Buddhist temples in Japan.
===Support proposal, with hyphens===
# CES 11:52, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote on proposal

message: # CES 11:52, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Support proposal, with hyphens

message: # Jpatokal 11:10, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Support proposal, without hyphens

message: :Further discussion about comma's go to the "Comma" section.
:Further discussion about the help icon go to Template talk:Nihongo, as goes other talk about the template.
A good name would be Template:Nihongo.
It would need three parameters, like this:
 
Since the last parameter can be absent, we would need to find a way to branch properly. This can be done using some clever tricks, but I'm still looking into it.
 
Would yield "Tokyo (東京都, Tōkyō-to ?)".
 
Would yield "Manga (漫画 ?)". However, the cursive romaji would still need to be there for those who have saved in their preferences (user css) that they want so see it anyway.
Note to self: don't forget to unbold the right part of the template, in case it's used in the article lead. Shinobu 06:11, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have already begun adding it (retroactively) to my own articles. You are welcome to take a look at the articles and see how you think it looks. A list of my articles is available on my user page; I have thus far 'converted' the first 100 or so articles. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the question mark, as I think it makes the whole thing look cluttered. But thanks for the template. Now there'll be a slightly more standard form for introducing article names & their original Japanese spellings. LordAmeth 20:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The template is great, a very good idea, but I agree with the above opinion. I don't like the question mark either. A small Japanese flag might be good, but some Japanese people dislike this symbol, so how about a tiny icon with the word "Nihongo" in kanji or something? It should be possible to make a favicon-sized "nihongo" since the kanjis are very simple. --DannyWilde 01:26, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Whoa, and what went wrong with the way I typed that?  Exploding Boy
Perhaps  was what you intended?
 
Wikipedia's template syntax is not that forgiving. Not much I can do 'bout that.
Note that if you don't want to see romaji (or want anything else customized) you can make that happen using your personal css; follow the help link to learn how. I think you can also search for classes using JavaScript, allowing for even more customization possibilities. Shinobu 21:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Template

message: I've already started this discussion on the Tokyo and Oume [sic] pages, just wanted to make a note of it here. The city in Tokyo, 青梅 (oume) while commonly (even officially) spelt Ome, should REALLY be spelled Oume in romaji. As it is a combination of the readings o and ume, and thus it is a not a 'long vowel' ō, as would normally be expected. To expand, Oume (for the city) is pronounced differently than ōme/oume or ōme/oome as the /u/ vowel is pronouced. Ōme is pronounced something like /oh-meh/ and oume is pronounced more like /oh-umeh/ but with a shorter /o/ sound.
NOW, of course this is not a pronounciation guide, this is hepburn. Oume is still correct in hepburn because it is the combination of two kunyomi, and thus each character has its own sound. For example 大/ou is only one character and thus there can be no argument about the hepburn spelling of it because it cannot be separated. 青梅/oume is two, and thus they each have their own sounds (though 青/o is not a very common reading) and when put together the pronounciation doesn't change so the hepburn of the two characters shouldn't be changed either to reflect that.
I babbled because I'm afraid of the arguments that some people will put up to defend the incorrect spelling of Oume, but I think I've argued my point.  freshgavin TALK   06:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Exception for long vowels

message: I'm closing this discussion and changing the Manual of Style. If anyone has a serious objection, revert the change and reopen the discussion. Fg2 10:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me, at least. CES 12:58, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Changing MoS

message: We seem to have reached a consensus on naming train and subway stations.  Just to make sure there are no objections I wanted to have a formal vote before adding to the MoS.  The naming system for the stations is fairly straight-forward:
* The default name is X Station
* When necessary, disambiguate by geographical location: Y Station -> Y Station (Prefecture) -> Y Station (Prefecture, City)
* Stations on private lines that have the same name as other train or subway stations in the same prefecture are disambiguated as PrivateCo Z Station.  For example, the main JR station in Nara is at Nara Station while the Kintetsu station in Nara is at Kintetsu Nara Station
**The example makes it clear that by PrivateCo you mean something shorter than the complete name of the railway company. Kintetsu's kind of easy, but how about Keihin Kyuko (Keihin Electric Express Railway, Keikyu) Kawasaki Station? Same question for Sotetsu (the usual name of Sagami RR).
**Also, do these stations have official names?
**Finally, is "Prefecture" necessary? Are there times when it's better than Y Station (City)? I confess to not having read all the discussion --- it's too long for my mind to handle (although if I just stopped chewing gum...). I wonder if a better pecking order would be "Y Station --> Y Station (city) --> Y Station (city, prefecture)"?
**After the questions, I think we should make it clear whether disambiguation is not necessary when the stations are connected, e.g. by tunnel or crosswalk etc. For example, Tokyo Station has JR and Tokyo Metro parts. I don't know of a way to go from one to the other without going outside the ticket area. Even so, I would not think it necessary to disambiguate them. Next-door is Otemachi, where again some passengers have to exit the ticket area and reenter. I would not think it necessary to disambiguate Sotetsu Ebina Station and Odakyu Ebina Station, which are adjacent; nor JR Noborito Station and Odakyu Noborito Station, likewise adjacent, where passengers have to (is this still true?) exit and buy a separate ticket for the other railroad. But JR and Keikyu Kawasaki Stations deserve articles as separate as the stations are, as do the Asakusa Stations. Ueno Station? That's too close for me to call. Fg2 05:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote on Train & Subway Station Names

message: # CES 05:09, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Support Proposal

message: They're all the rage nowadays.  I think there should be a MoS for dealing with the old/obsolete towns, and the new merged cities.  Two that I've done in Tochigi are Sakura, Tochigi and Nasushiobara, Tochigi.  There is probably a better way than my table for showing the size/population of the merged locales -- maybe a template?  Also, I've left the old town pages alone (like Ujiie, Tochigi); because these towns probably need a common format even moreso than the new cities.  A template like On date, NewCity was formed from This city and others ?? Neier 13:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not in MoS, but we had some discussion about it at the Wikipedia:Japan-related topics notice board. Check Wikipedia talk:Japan-related topics notice board/Jan-Mar and see what you think. Fg2 06:55, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that pointer.  Those guidelines look ok to me, so I finished up the two listed above. Neier 12:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merged Towns