Talk:Jack Hyles/Archive 1

message: Again I've had to remove thinly-veiled legal threat from this talk page. This is an unacceptable violation of Wikipedia:No legal threats.  If you find inaccuracies, remove them, or complain on this talk page.  But anyone who attempts to intimidate other users with legal threats will be immediately and permanently banned from editing Wikipedia. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 17:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Legal threats

message: If, as you say, Mr Hyles is above reproach, then why do you fear posting ALL of his story here. The bias of this article is obvious, it is fluff and contains only the "facts" that have been approved by Hyles' followers. There a pages of information relating to this "ministry" and it's past and current leaders that should be made known so that people can decide for themselves what is true. There is no mention of the scandals and accusations that have been made about Hyles and his Higher ups for the past 3 decades, as if none of it ever happened. Why does the truth scare you?
Reponse to above:  I did not say he was "above reproach", nor did I indicate that.  If you believe the article to be "fluff" simply because it does not conform to your biased anti-Hyles mindset, I suggest that you step back and look at the whole picture.  Why should there be mention of so-called "scandals" when in fact, those pages on the web that list such "scandals" amount to less than 1 percent of the over 37,000 Internet pages listed by Google that concern  Jack Hyles?  Do a Google on "Jack Hyles", add up the numbers and you'll see what I mean.  The vast majority of information about Jack Hyles supports the view of the current (as of 12-16-05) version of the Jack Hyles Wiki article.  A few contentious loud mouths do not an accurate Wiki make.
I guess using this approach we can assume that UFOs, Santa Claus, and Government conspiracies surrounding Area 51 area all valid as well, since there are more pages in favor of them then there are opposed to them. The bottom line is that Hyles was a garden variety dirty old man, and his reputation has been white washed by his blinded cult followers. The Hyles crowd is not capable of intelligent debate on the issue, rather choosing intimidation and insults (see above) to protect the false messiah from the truth. I pity you. Feel free to threaten me with legal action if you like, but this is America and my right to free speech is assured by the constitution.
Response to above:  Again, the above paragraph provides revealing evidence that your position comes from a viewpoint of personal hatred and bias against Jack Hyles and his followers, not from the "neutral viewpoint" that a solid Wikipedia entry demands.  Name-calling, calling independent Baptists 'cultists', and insulting people's intelligence because they do not agree with you does not help your case.
The issue is this:  should this Wiki entry include a bunch of sexual and/or general misconduct accusations against Jack Hyles, even though there is absolutely NO solid evidence of such behavior, NO legal evidence suggesting Jack Hyles violated any sort of legal or moral laws, NO person on the face of the earth can prove these accusations (if there was proof, he would have been successfully sued or convicted of a crime a long time ago), AND considering that these accusations come from a very small group of people who have an admitted hatred of most of what Jack Hyles stood for, with one such man even stating that he will not rest until 'Jack Hyles and his church are destroyed'.  Yeah, that sounds a great deal like a "neutral viewpoint" - right!
I've reviewed the history of the postings to this entry and I cannot find an explicit accusation that Jack Hyles engaged in an adulterous affair with his secretary.  What is stated is that one of his deacons made a public accusation of an affair.  In fact, the entry even states that Hyles denied the charge.  It is historical fact that the accusation was made and that there were repercussions from the accusation.  The accusation tarnished Hyles' reputation among many within the fundamentalist movement of Christianity.   Charges that these statements are libelous are just plain silly.  I believe that the deacon who made the charge even published a book about it.  Please cite the lawsuit decided against him and we'll consider retracting the stated facts. --Awcga 18:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Challenge 

message: In an attempt to satisfy both sides on these issues, I have created a separate Wiki entry named the Jack Hyles Controversy Wiki.  I have also modified the "Controversy" section here to provide for a link to this new Wiki.  The new wiki has suggested sections, please feel free to add to these sections as needed, keeping in mind that all Wikipedia entries must conform to the Neutral Point of View.  This will hopefully remove some of the heated arguments concerning this page, while still acknowledging that the accusations exist, and provide another venue for those who wish to post addional information concerning those accusations.  --Teeja 17:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solutions 

message: Thank you for sourcing the claim 68.78.99.7.
--Isotope23 19:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Source

message: Copyright 1993 Chicago Sun-Times, Inc.  
Chicago Sun-Times
June 2, 1993, WEDNESDAY , LATE SPORTS FINAL
SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 5
LENGTH: 494 words
HEADLINE: Pastor Linked to Sex Abuse Lashes Out
BYLINE: Daniel J. Lehmann
BODY:
The latest chapter in the career of a controversial fundamentalist pastor from Hammond, Ind., erupted Tuesday with the minister branding as "ridiculous assumptions and malicious lies" news reports linking him to a nationwide pattern of sexual molestations and abuse.
The Rev. Jack Hyles of First Baptist Church told 1,300 supporters at Rosemont's Hyatt Regency O'Hare that the reports were really an attempt to end Sunday school "bus ministries" operated by his church and others like it.
Hyles has been a target of occasional criticism during his nearly 34 years at the helm of the independent First Baptist, regarded as the nation's largest church, based on worship attendance. The Hammond church attracts as many as 20,000 worshippers each Sunday. 
Most allegations have been aimed at his aggressive Sunday school program - also considered the nation's largest - which uses 150 to 225 buses to round up thousands of children from the streets of Chicago and nearby urban areas.
Four years ago, a Christian fundamentalist organization accused Hyles of misdeeds and bad theology. And in March, a deacon at First Baptist, A.V. Ballenger, was found guilty of one count of child molestation dating from 1991.
Then in early May, a Detroit-area TV station said alleged child molestations at a suburban church there appeared to be part of a pattern among "churches that follow the teachings and philosophy" of Hyles, First Baptist and its related Hyles-Anderson College of Crown Point, Ind.
Titled "Preying From the Pulpit," the series said it found seven U.S. churches - all with ties to Hyles, it said - involved in sex scandals. It also said some ex-members described Hyles as a "cult leader" who along with "his followers (engages) in mind control, abuse and torture of children, degradation of women and retaliation against those who question his teachings."
On Tuesday, the Lake County (Ind.) prosecutor's office said it did not have any current cases involving Hyles or the church, and the Hammond Police Department confirmed a statement of last month that "there is no investigation" of the church or Hyles.
Hyles disputed the latest reports point by point in a speech to Midwest ministers and businessmen, brought together by COMPASSION - Churches Organized & Mobilized for Preservation and Safety for Sunday Schools in Our Nation.
Hyles said he didn't know most of the people or congregations named in the TV reports. Those said to have attended Hyles-Anderson College didn't, he said.
Hyles pledged to defend and expand First Baptist's bus program.
He also plans more ads similar to the one in Tuesday's Chicago Sun-Times, which was signed by several hundred supporters.
The ad "is simply stating what support is there already," said Cindy Lail, 32, an attorney from Cedar Lake, Ind., who signed it. "It's making it known that this is a legitimate place and we are a legitimate people."
Thatcher131 19:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chicago Sun-Times June 2, 1993

message: These materials may not be republished without the express written consent of The Associated Press
Blind Man Says Church Bans Him, After He Gets Guide Dog
A man blind since birth says he's been told he cannot attend his church with a guide dog he acquired in February.
Donald Baker, 19, said he has attended First Baptist Church of Hammond for four years, but was told by the church's pastor that he could not attend services with his dog Casey because it "would disturb others."
The pastor, the Rev. Jack Hyles, was unavailable for comment Thursday, said an associate pastor, the Rev. Keith McKinney. He confirmed Baker no longer attends First Baptist but said he could make no official comment. 
"Dr. Hyles has an official statement but it is not available now. It will be mailed to you," McKinney told a reporter.
Baker obtained the trained mixed breed retriever in February, and after a month of training with the dog in Rochester, Mich., returned to Hammond.
"I had attended Sunday school and services every Sunday when I used a cane. But the first week I attended with Casey, the ushers, on Dr. Hyles' orders, told me to leave," Baker said. "They said I could use the dog for Sunday school, but not in the regular church services.
"I wasn't trying to be defiant, but I kept returning because I was baptized there and I wanted to serve the Lord. They took Casey from me and kept him in another room. Casey just whimpered, and I guess really made a commotion because we are almost inseparable.
"They told me I could keep Casey with me if I stayed in the fellowship room. I did that once, but found the services were on the public address system, and I was the only one in the room.
"I don't feel like I'm attending church services when I'm the only one there and have to listen to a public address system," Baker said.
He said that two weeks ago he was told he also could not attend Sunday school with Casey.
"Casey wouldn't hurt anyone. He loves me, I love him and we really need each other. He would just sit at my feet," Baker said.
Last Sunday Baker attended the Church of Christ at Griffith, about 12 miles from his Hammond home.
"I called the pastor, Tom Hickey, and he told me Casey and I would be welcomed at services. In fact, he drove to my house and took me to church. We really felt accepted," Baker said.
Hickey, who uses no title in the Church of Christ, Thursday confirmed he had picked up Baker and his dog.
"I would pick up anybody that needed a ride to church. He told me about his dog at the other church, but I feel that is their decision and not for me to discuss," said Hickey.
"Donald and his dog are quite welcome here," Hickey said. "The dog poses no problem."
Thatcher131 19:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Associated Press, July 6, 1984, Friday, AM cycle

message: Copyright 1985 The New York Times Company  
SECTION: Section A; Page 12, Column 1; National Desk
BAPTIST PASTOR'S ACTIONS SPLIT MAINE COMMUNITY
BYLINE: By MATTHEW L. WALD, Special to the New York Times
DATELINE: LEE, Me., July 24
When worshipers kneel to pray in the white clapboard Lee Baptist Church, hard by the high school and across from the general store at the center of this tiny town, the state police and sheriff's deputies cruise back and forth outside and sometimes stop passing cars. The pastor prays for peace and for arrests.
At a prayer service on Sunday night, from 3 to 10 men, depending on who is doing the telling, engaged in a pitched battle with the pastor, the Rev. Daniel Dunphy, and members of his fundamentalist congregation. Mr. Dunphy maintains that the outsiders arrived with chains and pipes to assault the congregation and wreck the church. Mr. Dunphy was still pressing a handkerchief to a cut lip Tuesday and showing off a scar on the top of his head.
One of the men involved, John W. Crooker, says he went to the church with a brother and a nephew, all unarmed, to rescue his 16-year-old daughter from the church. He did not know the four men who walked in behind him, he said. 
Two men were arrested today in connection with the incident, The Associated Press reported. The two, Paul Brown, 40 years old, and Merle Knowlton, 39, were each charged with one count of aggravated assault. The authorities said they were continuing the investigation. As a prayer service was under way tonight, five shots were apparently fired outside the church. Sheriff Edward Reynolds of Penobscot County told the A.P. that the shots had not been aimed at the church but were more of a distraction.
 
Brainwashing Is Charged
Mr. Crooker and his wife, Madeline, said that Mr. Dunphy had brainwashed two of their daughters.
The 16-year-old daughter, Sheila Crooker, has been living with church members since May 29, when Mr. Dunphy took her out of a foster home in Hudson, Me., where her parents had placed her to keep her away from Mr. Dunphy. He faces charges of assault and criminal trespass, both misdemeanors, in that incident.
Another daughter, Rebecca, 17, was also in foster care but was granted legal independence from her parents by a court, and immediately married a church member.
The matter, a domestic dispute that appears to have grown from teen-age rebellion and marital troubles, has now involved the church, the police and most of the town.
Lee, 60 miles northeast of Bangor, has 700 people, two general stores, two churches, one restaurant, a post office, a historical museum and a grange hall. It seems an unlikely place for such a confrontation. Until a few years ago the Baptist Church was the only one in town, and it was attended by Roman Catholics and Protestants of other denominations. It was a live-and-let-live atmosphere, said Barbara Potts, the town clerk.
But a feud has been brewing for months between Mr. Dunphy on one side and what he calls this sinful town on the other.
It's a nice place for everybody to enjoy their sin, without being bothered, said Mr. Dunphy, who became the Baptist minister here three years ago.
Many members of the congregation, both within Lee and in neighboring towns from which they are brought in church buses, support their pastor, but nonmembers seem to have reached a consensus.
If it had been one of my daughters, he would not be alive today, said Alice Pickering, the tax collector.
Frank Moors, a truck driver who had stopped at the Quonset hut that doubles as a municipal garage and town office, said, If it had been my daughter, I'd have done it right the first time.
If he took one of my kids, said Dean Knights, a carpenter from nearby Lincoln, who was shopping in the general store, I'd waste him.
 
Dunphy Status Questioned
Even some church members question the events. I don't think this is the right minister for here, Kenneth McGraw said sadly. Mr. McGraw, 76 years old, has been a member of the church for more than 25 years.
Elsewhere, such a dispute might pit neighbors against one another, but in the small isolated communities of this region, where residents speak of having moved to town only 20 years ago and families trace their roots back generations, the conflict has left brothers and sisters not speaking to one another, sometimes within the same household.
Mr. Dunphy, 34, a native of Island Falls, Me., and a graduate of Hyles Anderson College, a Baptist institution in Crown Point, Ind., believes that he is unpopular because of the position I take against sin.
I'm against pornography, rock and roll, living with people without being married, illicit sex, dope, you name it, he said.
He held a bonfire at the church's Lee Christian School, which he heads, to burn record albums and a stereo set. He preaches against women wearing pants and men and women swimming together.
Women are supposed to keep their bodies pure, and save themselves for their husbands, Sheila Crooker said in a brief interview before a prayer meeting Tuesday night.
A 16-year-old Roman Catholic, Sheilaga Dameron, said that Catholics used to attend the Baptist church and sing in the choir but that he made it quite clear who is wanted and who is not wanted.
Mr. Dunphy said his church was Baptist, not Catholic, but he said that he had not barred Catholics.
 
Another Protestant Church
The town's other church, the Christian Missionary Alliance, is also Protestant.
Hartley Stevens, a Baptist church member who was in the melee on Sunday night and whose son Mark married Rebecca Crooker, favors Mr. Dunphy. It's been probably 50 years since we've had a good fundamentalist preacher, he said. People haven't had anyone tell them their sins.
The conflict with the Crookers, which Sheriff Reynolds called a Hatfield-McCoy feud, has changed the town's atmosphere. It was a horror show, he said of the Sunday incident. There were a lot of youngsters in the church. You can imagine the terror they must have felt.
Thatcher131 19:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The New York Times, July 25, 1985, Thursday, Late City Final Edition

message: These materials may not be republished without the express written consent of The Associated Press
April 7, 2000, Friday, AM cycle
HEADLINE: Experts say Combs child abuse case unusual
BYLINE: By ANGELA K. BROWN, Associated Press Writer
DATELINE: BLOUNTVILLE, Tenn.
BODY:
Esther Combs was not unlike many unwanted children who fall through the cracks of an overburdened social services system.
But experts say her tenure of torture - nearly 20 years - was unusual. The 410 scars she accumulated from curling iron burns, baseball bat beatings and other abuse went undetected because she was in the care of a minister and his wife, who used a cloak of religion and home schooling to isolate her.
"Many abused children are invisible to the system until they reach school age, but with home schooling, she had no exposure to teachers," said Kevin Kirkpatrick, spokesman for Prevent Child Abuse America, a Chicago-based nonprofit organization.
Rev. Joseph Combs and his wife, Evangeline Lopez Combs, were convicted last month of taking Esther from an Indiana orphanage when she was a baby, never adopting her and treating her as the family's servant. Combs also had sex with the girl. 
When sentenced on April 25, Combs faces 144 years in prison; Mrs. Combs, 73 years.
Meanwhile, the 22-year-old Esther is trying to start a new life, free to go to school, free to dress and speak the way she chooses - free.
---
There are some 1 million confirmed cases of child abuse and neglect in the United States annually, Kirpatrick said, and tens of thousands more go unreported.
Many are abused by their parents, or extended family. Others, like Esther, are abused by adoptive or foster parents.
Last year, a Utah woman was imprisoned for the death of her two adopted daughters, ages 3 and 6. The youngest died of head injuries after she was pushed down stairs. The older girl was starved to death in a filthy locked basement. Both were regularly burned and beaten. The woman's two biological sons were not abused.
The Combses also spared their four biological children and an adopted son from abuse.
The Combses told Esther she wasn't as smart as their other children and said her purpose in life was as their servant. When she didn't finish her chores in time, they called her rebellious and punished her.
Esther did what she was told, wanting the Combses to love her. Esther - who had no friends, couldn't read or write and was not allowed to watch television - had no way of knowing a normal life.
"Esther lived as a broken person, devastated by physical, verbal, psychological and sexual abuse without any other family ... and deprived of self-worth," prosecutor Barry Staubus said. "She was utterly dependent on the Combses."
---
During the first few years of their marriage, the Combses tried to conceive but couldn't. They decided in 1977 to adopt a son and the next year wanted a little girl.
They visited the Baptist Children's Home in Valparaiso, Ind., and chose a 4-month-old girl whom they named Esther. Within seven months, they signed an adoption
agreement, but later decided against it because the Combses claim the home requested 10 percent of their income as a fee. However, they never returned Esther.
Dawn Loftis, office manager at the Baptist Children's Home, said the agency never asked the Combses for money.
She said the home sent letters to the Combses in 1980, 1984 and 1994 asking for a record of Esther's adoption. The last letter was returned unopened, indicating the Combses had moved.
It's unclear what, if anything, the children's home did after that. Loftis acknowledged there were no records showing the children's home or a court ever demanded Esther's return.
---
Esther's earliest memory is being thrown down the stairs in her high chair.
When she was 3 or 4, her hands were burned after Mrs. Combs made her retrieve a spoon she accidentally dropped in a pot of oatmeal. When she was a teen-ager, Combs once wrapped a rope around her neck and draped her over his back until she passed out.
Another time, when the other children told on her for jumping on the bed, Mrs. Combs threw Esther against the wall, knocking out her two front teeth. Mrs. Combs then placed the teeth back in her bloody mouth, where they remained but were crooked and oddly spaced.
In 1986, Combs moved his family to Florida to start a church. Esther says the abuse continued and she was often raped. She says she was forced to cook and clean for the family and care for the Combses' two youngest children. She was rarely allowed to attend home-schooling sessions.
She says when a babysitter taught her how to write her name, the Combses beat her. They said Jesus didn't learn to read and write until he was 12, so Esther shouldn't either.
That babysitter and another one testified that they suspected Esther was mistreated but didn't want to contradict Combs, who had been their Bible professor at Hyles Anderson College in Crown Point, Ind.
The other babysitter reported her suspicions to the college president, but apparently nothing was done, she said.
---
The Combses left Florida and traveled as evangelists for more than a year before moving to Bristol, where Combs became pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church in 1989. Esther says that's when the abuse worsened, and the couple would quote Bible verses while punishing her.
Mrs. Combs often pulled out chunks of Esther's flesh with pliers. Another time Mrs. Combs threw a shoe at Esther's eye and then stitched her brow with a needle and thread.
"She called them her marks of the beast," Esther testified.
For eight years the family lived in the gym building and never let church members visit. Esther's only contact with the outside world was with church members twice a week.
Some in the congregation noticed Esther sometimes had black eyes, scars or her arm in a sling. But when told Esther was clumsy and fell a lot, they believed Combs. After all, he was a man of God, they said.
Esther ran away twice, once to a gas station and another time down the street, where she was picked up by a passing motorist and taken to a children's shelter. But both times she never told police she'd been abused and was returned to the Combses, who beat her severely for running away.
---
Esther decided the best way to end the abuse was to end her life. In February 1997, she guzzled a cup of antifreeze while at home. The Combses called 911 and she was taken by ambulance to a hospital, where doctors found layers of scar tissue on her body and fractures that had not healed properly.
Police were curious why Esther had no birth certificate, no Social Security number, no school or medical records.
Still afraid, Esther denied being abused and returned to live with the Combses. But detectives remained suspicious.
Seven months later, police filed a petition for guardianship for Esther, who was 19. Even though she was an adult, authorities believed she couldn't function as one because she had been so isolated.
Rather than go to court to accept the guardianship, Esther went to live with Combs brother's family in Georgia at his urging.
That move proved to be the one that finally ended her years of abuse.
---
Combs' sister-in-law, Susan Combs, testified that when Esther arrived, she was frail. She had trouble with the simplest of tasks, like making change or reading a menu. She said Esther was oblivious to popular culture and had never heard of Elvis Presley.
But Esther slowly blossomed with her newfound freedom - going to the mall with her cousins, dressing how she wanted, watching television - and finally opened up about her years of abuse.
In February 1998, four months after Esther had been away from the only parents she'd ever known, she called Bristol police and told them how she got her scars and who was responsible.
She also filed lawsuits against the children's home and the Combses.
"A transformation takes place when she gets out from under that family," Staubus said. "Esther is apart ... and begins to see and feel and know freedom.
"Finally, Esther speaks."
Thatcher131 19:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Associated Press, April 7, 2000

message: Copyright 1996 South Bend Tribune Corporation  
Ex-deacon to begin term in molestation CROWN POINT, Ind. (AP) - A former Hammond Baptist Church 
deacon will go to prison next week to begin serving a five-year sentence for 
child molesting. 
A. V. Ballenger, 60, of Hammond agreed to surrender Wednesday at the 
Reception-Diagnostic Center in Plainfield. 
Normally, convicts go to the Lake County Jail and await transportation to 
prison by police. Lake Superior Court Judge Richard Conroy said it was an 
unusual, but not unprecedented arrangement. 
It will end a case that drew national attention during a 1993 trial, pitting 
the church against the state criminal justice system. 
A Lake Superior Court jury convicted Ballenger in 1993 of fondling a young 
girl during a 1991 Sunday school class. She was 7 at the time. 
The allegations rocked the church and led to the ostracism of the victim's 
family and church members who went to police with the accusations. Thatcher131 22:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: South Bend Tribune (Indiana) August 30, 1996, Friday, INDIANA (Ballenger)

message: Deacon A.V. Ballenger was convicted of fondling a 7-year-old girl in Sunday school class and sentenced to 8 years in prison. A.V. Ballenger, a deacon and bus route driver at Hyles' First Baptist Church Hammond, was convicted in March of 1993 (and sentenced in July of 1993 to five years in jail) of molesting a seven year old girl. (This crime occurred in a Sunday School room of the church! Incredibly, after conviction, but prior to sentencing, Ballenger was allowed to resume his FBCH bus route!) The highlight of the sentencing hearing was the testimony of three young women. Each was molested by Ballenger when she was a child, and in each case, before age seven. Jack Hyles, who testified in Ballenger's behalf, defiantly declared the outcome of the trial null and void, claiming that the courts had no jurisdiction in this matter. Hyles told the girl's parents, "Deacon Ballenger just likes little girls." 
 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arbustoo (talk • contribs) .
*This is the sort of sourcing I find unhelpful.  Two highly partisan web sites.  Even if Hyles said the decision was "null and void," that is probably an extreme view of the idea of separation of church and state and the idea that secular laws don't apply.  I'll bet that was what the appeal was based on, and why it took 2-1/2 years to resolve. Churches of a certain mindset seem to want to insist that they are above secular laws.  There is a congregation in my town that insists it doesn't have to follow zoning regulations or the building code regarding an addition they put up.  
:If that is what Hyles was referring to (and the appeals case would be very clear on it if someone can look it up) then it is really unfair to imply that he was condoning abuse by the statement.  However, it may be verifiable and noteworthy that while Ballenger was out on bond awaiting the outcome of the appeal, he was allowed to resume a position at the church involving contact with children.  That is the sort of thing that could be explained as a factual event without making possibly unwarranted assumptions about what Hyles meant in his alleged statement about "null and void".  In fact, you could take "null and void" out of the article altogether and explain factually that while Ballenger was out on bond, he continued to drive a school bus for the church.  Say no more.  A simple statement of fact.  Readers are smart, they'll draw the inference without having it shoved under their noses. Thatcher131 05:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A.V. Ballenger: Null and Void

message: Thank you for encouraging me to do more research into this. This is posted for reference. Arbustoo 08:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hyles: "He Just Likes Little Girls"

message: *This article cites the Robert Summer article that is posted on the page right now, giving creedence on Summer's article's inclusion. Arbustoo 08:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jack Hyles, runs his church in an authoritarian, almost "cultist," manner.

message: *Hyles, during his latter years, took several extreme positions that were outside of the mainstream of orthodox fundamentalism declaring the King James Version the only valid translation of Scripture,...
The King-James-Only Movement is not an uncommon belief among very conservative fundamentalists, to the best of my knowledge. I don't think we should label it as "extreme". -Will Beback 21:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The note that it is "extreme" should be removed and an explanation about its links to broader fundamentalists belief added. Arbustoo 00:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I split the difference by calling it an "increasingly extreme" stance, by removing the assertion that it is out of the mainstream of Fundamentalism, and by adding a link to the King-James-Only Movement. -Will Beback 02:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't make much sense, Will.  "increasingly extreme" is hardly writing in NPV.  One man's "extreme" is another man's "normal".  What we're trying to do is tone this heated argument down, and labeling his views as "increasingly extreme" or even "extreme" only heats things up. We're supposed to be editing for factual accuracy, not personal opinion.  --68.252.176.158 02:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to improve it. -Will Beback 20:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  King James