Talk:Sidereal and tropical astrology

message: The statement "Its primary feature is that the signs of the zodiac align to the sky constellations of the same name." is erroneous. Unless by coincidence, the only time the sidereal zodiac aligns with the sky constellations of the same name, is for Aries. After 0 Aries, sidereal astrologers use a 30 degree segment of the sky, despite the fact that the constellations themselves are not of 30 degree longitudinal length. As an example, the table later refers to the sun entering the constellation Leo on August 10th, yet the sidereal Leo begins on August 16th.
People may read this statement and assume that the sidereal zodiac is a reflection of the actual constellations (indeed many siderealists suggest as much), but it is not, it is JUST the starting point that is based on the actual constellations (namely 0 degrees Aries).
Should it be revised?
(Xpaulk (talk) 12:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Though the length along the ecliptic of the zodiacal constellations vary, there are twelve zodiacal constellations and 360 degrees - thus an average of 30 degrees each.  The Ancient Greeks in the second half of the 1st millennium BCE overlayed onto the 12 zodiacal constellations twelve sidereal signs of exactly 30 degrees each.  On average, each of the 12 sidereal signs aligns with the 12 zodiacal constellations. Obviously there is some discrepanaciesd at the borders due to the different sizes of the constellations - but in ancient times constellations were stick figures, not real estate sub-divisions with defined borders anyway. Terry Macro (talk) 23:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Understand where you're coming from, but the fact that the constellations are of varying sizes but the signs do not match those sizes suggests that the statement "the signs of the zodiac align to the sky constellations of the same name" seems misleading. If it was 'roughly' the same, it would be fine, but in some cases they're way out. The sun only spends about a week in the constellation Scorpius, yet Scorpio is still treated as though the sun were a month in that sign. That's a big difference. Reading that statement you would think that the zodiac signs match the constellations, but if you were to look up into the night sky on October 20th, for example, the Sun would be in the constellation Virgo, but in the sidereal sign of Libra. That just doesn't gel with the idea that the signs align with the constellations. If some constellations are a 'week' of solar length, but the sign is still given a month and if you can look up at the constellations and still get the wrong sidereal sign, then clearly the sidereal signs are not aligned with the constellations. Rather the beginning of the zodiac is the only time it is ever aligned with the constellations.(Xpaulk (talk) 09:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The statement "the signs of the zodiac align to the sky constellations of the same name" ideally should read something like "the signs of the zodiac approximately align to the sky constellations of the same name".  And you could include a statement about the varying sizes of the zodiacal constellations versus the mathematical nature of the sidereal zodiac. For the sake of clarity, the word zodiac should never be used, only sidereal zodiac or tropical zodiac. Terry Macro (talk) 23:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Terry, have updated it as per your suggestion. I think the use of the word 'approximate' makes it more clear that it's not exact, and the table given later in the article can be referred to for exactitude if necessary. (Xpaulk (talk) 10:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

text: @Xpaulk replying 13 years later! There is evidence to suggest that the Paleides were the original "first point of Aries" when the Sumerian-Babylonians began systematically dividing the ecliptic. They may not have been aware of the precession of the equinoxes, but it's irrelevant, as they catalogued different constellations with different names. Later Alexandrian Greeks adopted the Babylonian tropical zodiac and named each sign based on nearby Greek constellations. How aware or to what extent the Greeks cared about precession is also irrelevant. They too divided the ecliptic into twelve equal divisions beginning with the Vernal Equinox. What or why they were so named does not change the underlying tropical basis. 46.230.139.178 (talk) 11:16, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alignment to constellations? 

message: "Western astrologers have never done a catching up exercise and many still do not fully understand the implications of their error." - does this breach NPOV or not?--Paul C 09:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It represents the view of Sidereal astrology which is the subject of the article so I hold that it’s an essential part of it. A paragraph on tropical astrology's view of sidereal would be welcome.Lumos3 20:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The question wasn't about the point being made, but the manner in which it is made.  It clearly takes a POV.  If you want to keep it, rearrange it so that it is an NPOV statement, and not a 'Western astrologists are teh dumb!  lewl!' type denigration.  Joey 15:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure when the change was made, but the 'they claim that' is all that I was asking for.  :)  Looks fine to me now.  Just so long as the ENCYCLOPEDIA is not making the claim that anyone is daft or backward or error-prone.  Joey 15:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Description

message: I'm getting a 404 on both references Nik42 03:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: fixed Lumos3 19:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: why do all these articles bring up this Ophicuus nonsense? This is a complete red herring, discussed as a result of a total lack of understanding of the system. The signs are used to mark 30 deg stretches, the stretches are not aligned with the size of the signs (otherwise, they would not be 30 degrees each, but vary with the size of their respective constellation). The Babylonians picked 12 constellation because they needed 12 constellations for their system, it doesn't matter if there are additional constellations touched upon by the sun's path. This is also unrelated to the sidereal vs. tropical discussion and shouldn't even be brought up here. dab (ᛏ) 08:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's the information I came here looking for. I only found this page because a thirteen zodiac system was briefly very popular in Japan, apparently, and I found a reference to it in a novel that puzzled me. I vote it stays, or gets a page of its own with a link from this page... Doceirias 08:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Therydicule which books and 'studies' show a 13th and 14th sign? You mention that Ophiuchus is a constellation and so it makes as much sense to use it as any other constellation, which belies your lack of understanding of the zodiac. In tropical/western astrology NO constellations are used. Not one. There are simply naming conventions used which are similar to the constellations, but the constellations are not at all involved in the calculation of the zodiac. This is a common misunderstanding. In sidereal astrology, then, the only constellation that is used is Aries, the rest follows on in a similar manner to tropical (in that they are 30 degrees each, and 12 signs). So in conclusion Ophiuchus is irrelevant to the zodiac and there was only ever, 12 signs of the zodiac as the zodiac is basically just a mathematical model based upon the division of a circle into 12.Xpaulk (talk) 09:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Ophicuus

message: ok, it transpires from the article that there are at least three types of "sidereal astrology",
*traditional Hindu astrology, diverging from the tropical zodiac around AD 300
*Fagan's sidereal astrology, diverging from the tropical zodiac exactly 786 BC
*the constellation people who discard the whole notion of a zodiac altogether and look at actual sizes/boundaries of constellations. We don't have a reference as to who is seriously proposing this.
these should be cleanly disambiguated here. At present, it is far from obvious that such divergent systems are being lumped together. dab (ᛏ) 09:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact the idea that they've known about it for decades if not centuries is not quite correct. In truth they've known about it for millennia. Ptolemy has recorded both precession and ophiuchus itself in his amalgest and he was writing in the 2nd century. Xpaulk (talk) 16:18, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: needs cleanup and verification

message: What's everyone's take on sidereal astrology?  I know not much about it, but I have to denounce it for one simple reason. - My birthday is March 10, and according to sidereal astrology I'm an Aquarius, but for tropical it's Pisces.  I believe my personality traits go exactly in accordance with the zodiac of Pisces; not merely because I want this to be the case, but because it is.  Also as for everyone else I know, their traits fit in along with tropical astrology's dates, as well.--Tainted Drifter 01:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only magazine astrology would try to describe your personality on the sun sign alone. Just about all astrologers see this approach as worthless and just a form of entertainment.  Lumos3 09:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it might make sense that ur just ur sun sign for tropical... at first... but u dont know urself fully... (most of the traits of the signs dont even manifest till ur 30 or something astrologers say). anyways the main thing is you have to take into consideration the other two very important signs: moon and ascendant. the ascendant, according to sidereal, is the most important, the moon sign is the second most, and the sun is the last. so take the three from tropical, and interpret them from the tropical interpretation of the sun being the most important. and take the three from sidereal and interpret them from the sidereal view point of asc being the most important. and see which one works out better. for me, its been sidereal which has worked out better in describing myself. Sadartha (talk) 07:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: I've noticed that the articles on wikipedia seem eskewed toward the sidereal stance. For example, on the Tropical Astrology page it mentions that "Sidereal astrologers also point out the absurdity of applying northern hemisphere seasons to the whole planet when there are now large populations within the southerm hemisphere who experience seasons six months apart from those in the north." and refer to the astrological signs as 'star' signs. The Sidereal article, on the other hand, ALSO denounces Tropical astrology saying "Some sidereal astrologers denounce tropical astrologers for failing to relate to the "actual heavens,"". It seems that a rebuttal of tropical astrology is seen on both the tropical and the sidereal article with no equally competing rebuttal of sidereal astrology found on either. This seems intellectually dishonest, and so I have included a rebuttal of sidereal astrology in the sidereal article just as there is a rebuttal of tropical in the tropical article. Xpaulk (talk) 10:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: @Xpaulk I have no opinion of astrology. However it cannot be disputed that constellations of any culture are sidereal, while the Zodiac was and is tropical, irrespective of when and why the signs were named. The Zodiac has always been an equal division of the tropical ecliptic starting with the Vernal Equinox (whether that happened to be Paleides, Hamal, or Alpha Piscium). 46.230.139.178 (talk) 11:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tropical counter  arguments 

message: Would someone knowledgeable like to explain how tropical astrology deals with people born in the southern hemisphere. Since  the signs align to the northern hemisphere equinoxes and solstices then surely southern hemisphere people should have a 6 month lag in their sign. Lumos3 (talk) 16:11, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you just showed why tropical astrology makes no sense whatsoever when you consider that our calendar dates are not sidereal. InMooseWeTrust (talk) 22:45, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  The nonsense that tropical signs should be delayed 6 months in the southern hermisphere only comes about by people who hypothesise without checking what actually occurs (what I call the ancient Greek disease) or by people who are not astrologers who are therefore clueless about astrology anyway.  I do not know one southern hemisphere astrologer that does not use the same zodiacal signs as in the northern hemisphere.  If someone is born in the southern hemisphere with their sun in Aries, they dispay the same Arian characteristics as someone born at the same time in the northern hemisphere.  Astrologers canot afford to produce stupid results based on hypothetical nonsense, otherwise they lose their clients. However this discussion is irrelevant - Wiki is an encyclopedia, not a discussion forum. If some reputable book states that zodiacal signs should be dealyed 6 months in the southern hemisphere it copuld possibly be included as a whacko fringe theory - but I doubt you will find this. Terry Macro (talk) 23:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Technically speaking, it doesn't deal with it at all. They avoid the issue like the plague with nothing but double talk and assertions based on experience with no good explanation. This is a real problem because tropical astrology was devised for the Northern Hemisphere and seasons. Most Southern Hemisphere practitioners are in denial, in my opinion. They're going by the same kind of logic as people in the Southern Hemisphere who still celebrate Christmas on December 25th because that's the way it's always been. The issue in question can't be dealt with quite as simply as a six month lag, though. But I am personally convinced that Astrology as defined by the ancients doesn't work down there. I will refuse to draw up a chart for a client born in the Southern Hemisphere, and just tell them the bad news that Astrology tends to malfunction there. If you go down there, you see the constellations in the sky, upside down. If someone were to force me to say what I think is different, it's that people down there seem psychologically strange. If you were to just give this problem a cursory glance, you might think they were just the opposite sign. But there are some very odd things that make you realize that they're more like a "negative" or "reversed" version of the sign they're supposed to be than like the true opposite. And in many cases, their self-image internally regarding the areas of life governed by various planets are still more like that of the signs their chart suggests "supposed to be in," yet many aspects of their life details and outward behavior seem more like the opposite sign. This is why most people down there believe it works... what the Southern Hemisphere does is, in my opinion, to weaken the power of the ego and increase the influence of the unconscious. In other words, people in the Southern Hemisphere have a greater tendency to live out their projections. If you ask me, no one should live down there, it seems to cause all kinds of psychological problems. You get really assertive people who think they're polite, really polite people who think they're assertive... cold, practical people who think they're sensitive and touchy, etc. They basically have zero self-awareness and will rationalize why they are what they claim to be with a few limited examples from their life, rather than acknowledging the overall pattern. I have friends who are counseling psychologists who tacitly agree with me that it's very hard to deal with people born in that part of the world, although they don't buy that it's an astrological phenomenon... they blame it all on culture. 47.184.165.101 (talk) 22:13, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Southern hemisphere and tropical astrology

message: The reference http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/fagan.html used in this topic is inadequate and needs to be removed or replaced with something supportive. Terry Macro (talk) 02:36, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Inadequate Reference

message: The insistence on inserting airy claims that sidereal astrology is "Vedic" is just malicious.
In reality, you cannot have either "sidereal" or "tropical" astrology before you discover the precession of the equinoxes, because you won't be able to tell the difference between the two. 
The precession of the equinoxes was discovered by Hipparchus. There isn't a shred of evidence that it had been discovered anywhere else in the world prior to that. 
Unless you have astoundingly excellent references to the contrary (WP:REDFLAG), please just leave it alone. --dab (𒁳) 15:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: "The dates the Sun passes through the 13 astronomical constellations of the ecliptic are listed below, accurate to the year 2002. The dates will increment by one day every 70½ years, and already several have changed. The corresponding tropical and sidereal dates are given as well."
Is the year mentioned correct?
58.161.138.202 (talk) 14:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern constellations along the ecliptic 

message: The article is clearly wrong on the timeline when the tropical zodiac was created and introduced, or rather, when sidereal and tropical did align. According to Meeus, J.; Savoie, D. (1992), The history of the tropical year, Journal of the British Astronomical Association, 102 (1): p. 40, the tropical zodiac was introduced by Hipparchus during the 2nd century BCE, as by his time, it had become devastatingly clear that the astronomical spring equinox had drastically shifted from the meteorological one. The time when both had been identical had actually been during the 3rd millennium BCE. Western astrology has always preserved the state from this time, especially with the tropical zodiac, which suggests that the 3rd millennium BCE was when the zodiac and astrology had reached their final form in regards to picking an astronomical marker for the spring equinox. 
As Hipparchus lived roughly two centuries after Alexander the Great, it is understandable that the news did not reach India until modernity, which is why Indian astrology has always used the sidereal zodiac. (There are even a number of scholarly sources, both Indian and Western (inncluding Pingree, David (1973), The Mesopotamian Origin of Early Indian Mathematical Astronomy, Journal for the History of Astronomy, SAGE. 4 (1): p. 1–12, Samuel, Samuel (2010), The Origins of Yoga and Tantra, Cambridge University Pres, p. 81, and Witzel, Michael (25 May 2001), Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts, Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies. 7 (3)), which say that astrology (as apart from astronomy and keeping time by means of the stars) did not reach India up until Alexander to begin with, and according to which, any other claims exclusively derive from racist Hindu nationalist sources.) Accordingly, all sources in the article that claim that sidereal and tropical zodiac did align as late as "2,000 years ago" are modern Jyotisha sources which have never actually used the tropical zodiac to begin with. --2003:EF:1706:3292:D81F:AE49:9AB4:C825 (talk) 17:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 

message: There was never alignment. The Zodiac signs were never meant to align with constellations. They were simply named based on the closest constellations. Furthermore, the equal division of the sky and tropical year was Babylonian. Our modern names are Greek. Our modern sidereal divisions of the entire celestial sphere by constellation is by recent convention. The twelve divisions of the ecliptic into exactly 30° was always tropical. And just as today, 0° is the Vernal Equinox, aka "first point of Aries" irrespective of the background constellations (the Tropic of Aries is tropical not sidereal). We literally call the solstices and 23+° latitudes the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn and have done so since ancient times. It may have been convenient for the Greeks to name each of the 30° signs of the tropical ecliptic based on nearby sidereal constellations at the time, but the two concepts are entirely and incompatibly different. 46.230.139.178 (talk) 11:04, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming and alignment