Talk:Esoteric Christianity

message: I think that all of the following should be included in the "see also" section of the article because I feel that all of these are quite important to the article and for those seeking to understand different types of Esoteric Christianity in more historical depth and variation:
=== See also ===
Schools
*Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of FreemasonryHeindel, Max, Freemasonry and Catholicism, 
*Anthroposophical Society of Rudolf Steiner
*Archeosophical Society of Tommaso Palamidessi
*Lectorium Rosicrucianum of Jan van Rijckenborgh/Catharose de Petri
*Martinism of Louis Claude de Saint-Martin
*Societas Rosicruciana by Masons
*Theosophical Society of Madame Blavatsky
*The Rosicrucian Fellowship of Max Heindel
Traditions
*Behmenism
*Brethren of the Free Spirit
*Bogomilism
*Catharism
*Essenes
*Gnosticism
*Hermeticism, Hermetism
*Manichaeism, Neo-Manichaeism
*Neoplatonism
*Pythagoreanism
*Rosicrucianism
*Templarism
*Western Mystery Tradition
Disciplines
*Alchemy, Philosopher's stone
*Astrology
*Esotericism
*Kabbalah, Christian Kabbalah, Hermetic Qabalah
*Magic, Goetia, Theurgy
*Mysticism, Christian mysticism
*Numerology
*Occultism
*Spirituality
*Western Esotericism, Western Esotericism (academia)
Lineage
*Christian Kabbalah
*Beloved Disciple
*Johannine literature
*Lazarus
Central concepts
*Astrological age, Age of Aquarius
*Christ (concept), Second Coming
*God and the scheme of evolution
*Sophia (wisdom)
Geneisner (talk) 20:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The see also section

message: Schools
*Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of FreemasonryHeindel, Max, Freemasonry and Catholicism, 
*Anthroposophical Society of Rudolf Steiner
*Archeosophical Society of Tommaso Palamidessi
*Lectorium Rosicrucianum of Jan van Rijckenborgh/Catharose de Petri
*Martinism of Louis Claude de Saint-Martin
*Societas Rosicruciana by Masons
*Theosophical Society of Madame Blavatsky
*The Rosicrucian Fellowship of Max Heindel
Traditions
*Behmenism
*Brethren of the Free Spirit
*Bogomilism
*Catharism
*Essenes
*Gnosticism
*Hermeticism, Hermetism
*Manichaeism, Neo-Manichaeism
*Neoplatonism
*Pythagoreanism
*Rosicrucianism
*Templarism
*Western Mystery Tradition
Disciplines
*Alchemy, Philosopher's stone
*Astrology
*Esotericism
*Kabbalah, Christian Kabbalah, Hermetic Qabalah
*Magic, Goetia, Theurgy
*Mysticism, Christian mysticism
*Numerology
*Occultism
*Spirituality
*Western Esotericism, Western Esotericism (academia)
Lineage
*Christian Kabbalah
*Beloved Disciple
*Johannine literature
*Lazarus
Central concepts
*Astrological age, Age of Aquarius
*Christ (concept), Second Coming
*God and the scheme of evolution
*Sophia (wisdom)
Geneisner (talk) 20:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: Even though  216.154.28.192 has removed mention of Theosophy twice from the "See also" section of this article, I would like to voice my opinion that it should be included.  216.154.28.192 said that we who would like to include this in the article are, "Obviously ignorant of Theosophy's non-sectarian approach to religion as evidenced in the Society's motto: There is no religion higher than Truth."  I would like to respond that I believe there is sufficient evidence connecting Theosophy and Esoteric Christianity, historically speaking, and that this evidence should be enough to include Theosophy in the "See also" section of this article.  First of all, Theosophy's roots were influenced by, among others, those such as Jakob Böhme, Robert Fludd, and Emanuel Swedenborg; Christian mystics who were also directly involved with forms of Esoteric Christianity.  Secondly, I would like to say that the statement concerning the group being nonsectarian can show that Esoteric Christian traditions were also part of the group's views and were not discouraged (since many of Madame Blavatsky's forms of Esotericism were directly influenced by Esoteric Christian traditions as well as many other mystical and religious traditions, and there were a number of Theosophists who were involved in forms of Esoteric Christianity and vice versa.)  Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure you (or someone) will, but, it seems the group believed that there is some potential truth in all religions, and this is perhaps represented by the fact that Theosophy's symbol is a mixture of many different religious symbols from many different religious traditions.  Is this not a form of Universalism?  And would it also include Esoteric Christian traditions as well?  I think it would.  Also, wasn't Blavatsky involved with Freemasonry in some way?  All sorts of Masonic traditions are included in the "See also" section of this article, and I think they should be, but one could also say that Freemasonry isn't just open to Christians because you don't have to be a Christian to be a Freemason.  But Freemasonry is listed in this article, as it should be, because of historic ties and influences (both directly and indirectly) to the things represented in this article.  I think a similar case could be made for the inclusion of Theosophy in the "See also" section.  Also, I think it should be said that Esoteric Christianity involves a blending of many different traditions too.  In fact, many so-called "mainstream" Christians would probably disagree both theologically and philosophically with many of the traditions represented in this article, but it still doesn't mean that there isn't a blending of different religious views that were influenced in some way or another by varying types of Christian mysticism and Esotericism down through the ages.  And just because a group might be considered a form of Esoteric Christianity, or somehow associated with Esoteric Christianity, does not mean it isn't nonsectarian or Universal.  It could be nonsectarian and/or Universal.  I think a discussion of this history is important for this particular article.  I think the evolution of Esoteric Christianity can be traced with some degree of concise generality: it came from a mixture of "magical" folk traditions from the "Old World" (Europe, Asia, Africa) that combined with mystical forms of Christianity early on and then lead to the development of different Western esoteric groups such as the Knights Templar and the Cathars, to the Behmenists, the Rosicrucians, and the Freemasons, and so on.  Alchemy, Mysticism, and/or other forms of Esotericism played a role in these groups (I also think some mention of the Grimoires of old and the Pow-wow (folk magic) could be included somewhere in this article as well.)  But it didn't just end there.  Theosophy also sprang from many of these traditions too.  Not only that, but Theosophy in turn influenced other groups along these lines.  Rudolf Steiner was involved with Theosophy and then later started his Anthroposophical Society (mentioned in the "See also" section of this article.)  Other groups, like the one lead by Anna Kingsford, and the Liberal Catholic Church of J. I. Wedgwood also sprang from Theosophy.  Many of the New Age movements also sprang from these traditions.  Anyhow, I think there's enough evidence to include Theosophy in the "See also" section of this article. Geneisner (talk) 07:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why I think [[Theosophy]] should be included in the "[[Esoteric_Christianity#See_also|See also]]" section of [[Esoteric Christianity|this article]] 

message: I've deleted some of the polemical and now extranious items from this talk page. But I've left these pictures because I like them.Darrell Wheeler 14:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  editing 

message: Though the author(s) do not acknowledge it, much of the history presented here is considered speculative or mythical by scholars of history and esotericism. For example, the claim is made that Rosicrucianism began in the 14th century, yet scholars typically regard its start with the 17th century appearance of the Fama Fraternitatis.  The claim is then made that this is about when the "age of Alchemy" started, yet alchemy had already been widely in practice for several centuries at least.  
Here's another example:  "Jesus, according to the Esoteric Christian tradition, was a high Initiate educated by the Essenes...."  In fact, there is no single tradition that qualifies as "The" esoteric Christian tradition. Esoteric Christianity is a very rich and diverse field of study and practice, with significantly different expressions popping up in various times and places with little or no direct connection to others. The author(s) of this article may wish to tie the major expressions of Christian esotericism into one preferred model, and then speculate upon the convoluted historical connections necessary to make it sound plausible, but that is a poor excuse for NPOV representation of esoteric Chrisitianity.
The theological and escatalogical flavor of this article suggests that the author(s) are writing from perspective almost entirely limited to ideas from the Theosophical Society, Anthroposophical Society, and the Rosicrucian Fellowship. Uneducated readers are likely to get the impression that these are the only views of Christian esotericism. If this article continues in the current form, then it needs to be retitled to reflect its bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.237.136.153 (talk) 17:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scrap it or retitle it! 

message: I do see what some of the other editors above mean about areas needing repair in this article. There is work to be done here, cleaning up, yes.  Anyone up to it? Esoteric Christianity to me is wonderfully defined by Richard Smoley in his book Inner Christianity.  The last link in the external links section leads to a survey/summary page I myself compiled (thank you to the Anon who linked to us) which summarizes Smoley's excellent definitions of esoteric christianity.  It's true that Esoteric Christianity goes well beyond Theosophy and Rosicrucianism, Alchemy and the Essenes.  The Essenic theories are hotly debated, by the way, and I personally am not so sure Jesus / Yeshua was an Essene, though perhaps he knew of their teachings. 
I am not one to jump in and mess with the content of an article.  Let's discuss first what changes should be made here shall we?  Where to begin...  Any ideas? Regards, KatiaRoma 00:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's Fix this Valuable Article 

message: To avoid duplicating discussion, please join the discussion at the Christian Mysticism talk page.Typing monkey 14:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: Really, it needs help.  The intro is intelligible but then it is just chaos.  The article itself should not require divine guidance in order to be able to interpret it.  Here are some specific objections. 
"Some modern-day practitioners believe that the foundational teachings of Esoteric Christianity were publicly presented to the world in the early 20th century (1) in an effort to establish a future universal religion as humanity, with a more developed mind and will, walks forward to the understanding of a Universal Friendship."
I believe this is referring to Max Heindel, the Theosophist who formed the Rosicrucian Fellowship in the early 1900's.  If so, it should say so.  If not, the "foundational teachings of Esoteric Christianity" should be defined.  Refer to source texts.  Pseudo-Dionysus?  Nag Hammadi?  How is this different from Christian Mysticism, or Gnosticism, or Theosophy?
“Occult Christian teachings point out the major living source of the Esoteric Christian tradition in western civilization which began in the 14th century with the constitution of a secret brotherhood of holy men called the Rosicrucian Order, which expounded itself for the first time in the supposedly esoteric work The Divine Comedy. 
“Occult Christian teachings point out”...what does this mean?  What teachings? What teachers?  What texts?  Who considers the Divine Comedy to be an “esoteric work” and why?  Now we’ve got the Knights Templar involved, but according to the first paragraph, this is a 20th century philosophy.  And what do the Rosicrucians have to do with Dante again?  All of this should be deleted if it can’t be improved and sourced.
The quotes section is not only too long, it doesn’t belong in this article and should be removed altogether, unless the cited work is used as a reference in the main text.
The article implies that this is an ancient tradition.  However, as written, it relies heavily on the works and ideas of Max Heindel, Annie Besant, and Rudolph Steiner (or cites texts which rely on the same), all of whom are associated with Theosophy, a relatively recent mystic society. Typing monkey 16:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've pared it down quite a bit.  The article is clearly slanted towards theosophy and so that is stated up front. I’ve tried to remove most of the vague, flowery, self-referencing, self-congratulatory, and npov language.  I also pared down the “see also” list to a more reasonable size.  Removed “recommended readings” and “current essays” as the works are not cited in the article.  If they contain relevant information, that information should be incorporated into the article with a citation to the source. Removed the “Quote” section.  Does not meet stylistic guidelines.  If you feel the information in the quotes is essential to a layperson’s understanding of the topic, then summarize the content for inclusion in the article and cite the relevant work.Typing monkey 22:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you, I was hesitant to pare down so much, but we're supposed to "be bold".  It's an interesting topic and hopefully more content will continue to be added or re-incorporated in a stylistically appropriate way.  Typing monkey 04:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite Suggestions 

message: I think most of the concerns expressed in the templates about 'weasel words', neutrality, tone, etc. have been addressed so I'm removing those templates, as well as the rewrite tag.  If there are still concerns, let's discuss specifics and try to correct them before re-adding the templates.  Also removing the proposal to merge with Christian Mysticism, after reading the discussion there.Typing monkey 06:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template removal

message: I've given this section the same treatment I gave "medieval forms....". I think there is one citation needed which I've noted in the text but I could not recall the "citation needed" wiki tag. In the sentence "It is not totally clear if reincarnation, along with the pre-existence of the soul, was part of Origen's beliefs, but most modern Esoteric Christian movements refer to Origen's writings (along with other Church Fathers and biblical passages) to validate these ideas...." would it be worthwhile to give one or two examples or at least chapter and verse type notes about which bible passages? Darrell Wheeler 13:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Brief History of Early Christian Esotericism

message: I've given this section a pretty big rewrite. I think I've made it more clear but still maintained the points Prof.Landau was making. He seems to be the most expert editor currently working this page (and well done by the way). If I've lost the thread please refocus it or undo it.Darrell Wheeler 13:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is much improved, thanks to you both.Typing monkey 02:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank both of you too. Unfortunately English is not my native language, anyway I'm trying to do my best. Thank you for your precious checksProf.Landau 09:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for contributing your expertise. Some of the other sections still need a little tidy up of grammar etc. but overall the article vastly improved. As an intersted reader with no special knowledge i feel like I can start to get a grip on the subject now. I've removed the "technical" template.Darrell Wheeler 14:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I've got a big hangup still. Mediaeval academia used the Trivium/Quadrivium/Theology framework, whereby the Trivium subjects (grammar, rhetoric and logic) gave the tools for investigation of the Quadrivium (arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy) culminating in the study of Theology. The study of astronomy extended to cover astrology, and theology to cover alchemy: see the annex to the Spanish edition of René Taylor's Architecture and Magic ()for a practical example from the Spanish court of 1560, which appears to be the starting point of the whole furore which led to modern Chemistry via van Helmont. These were bounded by the objectives: the lower subjects could not challenge the higher, cf the case of Gilles de Rais, whose murderous interpretation of an alchemical manual's instruction which called for the massacre of the innocents resulted in his execution by fire for heresy in 1440. Consequently, it's an anachronism to attribute our more recent thinking on these subjects to the mediaeval viewpoint, which was simply trying to find its way in the dark. You might examine the circle of Athanasius Kirchner as a starting point.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.58.169 (talk) 00:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Medieval forms of Esoteric Christianity

message: Why does it say that there are four of them that need be mentioned here and then it names five movements, the fifth being Freemasonry, with no explanation to how it is related to Christian esotericism?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.119.131.79 (talk) 03:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've corrected the numbering problem. As to the explanation of how each movement is related I would have thought that following the links was how to get the explanation. For example if one follows the Freemasonry link you will find a section in that article related to christian esotericism. Perhaps this section needs to have a little expansion. Darrell Wheeler 11:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four vs five 

message: There is currently discussion regarding the creation of a work group specifically to deal with articles dealing with this subject, among others,  here. Any parties interested in working in such a group are welcome to indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 18:07, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed work group 

message: * http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=esoteric+islam&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_sdt=1.&as_sdtp=on&as_sdts=5&hl=en
--124.78.214.145 (talk) 08:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A red link is created based on the following.... 

message: A lot of claims made in this section and rest of article require more sources to support them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.148.124.242 (talk) 19:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern forms of Esoteric Christianity

message: Who ever updated the article with new information has done a wonderful job of explaining Esoteric Christianity. Starcomet 21:37, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Explaining? I think the article reads as an essay trying to prove a point, i.e. that the "esoteric Christianity" is coherent, has a continuity, and that it is "valid" Christianity, citing less than reliable sites, mostly horoscope mongers. Then it adds allegated similarities between the 12 apostles and the 12 zodiacal signs without any citation, providing worst kind of WP:OR, and some idiot story equating "son of man" with Orion, now citing another horoscope monger site. This article is what really really pisses me of with Wikipedia: that such bags of errors are propagated through the perceived "authority" of Wikipedia. I'm going to demote the article to C-class. And that's very mild, considering the state of the article. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 18:52, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The new style and information of the page

message: I think this section is too big and too specific for the scope of this article. I propose deleing the whole section and merely noting that some streams of Esoteric Christian are astrological in character.Darrell Wheeler (talk) 04:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree also it should be moved to its own article. Dazedbythebell (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Moving the section to Astrology within the Bible as per above discussion.Dazedbythebell (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Astrology In The Bible

message: I removed the categories Christianity and paganism and Paganism since being esoteric doesn't make oneself a pagan, nor does esoteric equal with paganism. There are church bodies that have identified themselves as esoteric even, such as The Christian Community. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 15:58, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esoteric Christianity and paganism 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Almost every citation in this article is flawed. A book is referred to but no page number is given. This provides ground for stripping down the majority of the article. This needs to be fixed.Wallingfordtoday (talk) 00:24, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  all the citations are useless 

message: Should this article mention George Gurdjieff? After all, he thought his philosophy could be thought of esoteric Christianity. Vorbee (talk) 11:46, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: George Gurdjieff