Talk:Eddie Irvine

message: I always heard that Eddie Irvine was Irish, and I guess every F1-related media hasalways credited him as such... Why was it changed, all of a sudden?
:Because he's from Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom, and not from the Republic of Ireland. To the best of my recollection he raced under the Union Flag, not the Irish one despite holding his FIA Superlicence under his Irish driving licence. 4u1e 17:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Going by the NI page, he would be entitled to claim Irish nationality. He seems to be listed in official results under UK though, which suggests he didn't. Hope the slightly revised wording I've put in is better. 4u1e 17:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: in northern ireland despite being in the UK part of the good Friday agreement citizens can decide if they are Irish, British or both, Irvine has stated that he is Irish, you could see him glancing up to see which flag was chosen for him, as he had asked for an Irish flag, but usually got a union jack, he later asked if he could just get a green flag with a harp to avoid controversy. He raced with an Irish licence, shamrock on his flag, Irish flag on his car identifies as Irish. Desdill (talk) 01:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is completely inaccurate.. I changed it but someone else has reverted back to the earlier revision. Eddie did not race under the union flag, he raced for NORTHERN IRELAND under the Ulster Flag. After he had his first podium finish while racing for Jordan, the Tricolour of Ireland was displayed behind him; as was extensively reported in the media of the time, his family received death threats from Loyalist Terrorists so he reverted to an Ulster flag. Irvine, who lives in Dublin and Los Angeles, holds an Irish passport and not a British one. Tellingly, he explained in a magazine interview that he was delighted to have Irish citizenship as it made it easier to travel around the world, given the ill feeling in some countries toward Britain. Also, if you google him you will find copious references to his life in Dublin. This article is all wrong.
OK. Let's try and get to the bottom of this.
*I am confident that Irvine never appeared in F1 under the Ulster flag - FIA rules don't allow for it, the driver's nationality matches their passport and you can't have a 'Northern Irish' passport.
*He could have appeared under an Irish flag in theory - although born in NI he is entitled to take up Irish citizenship. However, he appears in all official FIA results as a UK driver and under the Union flag. See Official F1 results for 1999 season. See also Still from official F1 feed with Union flag clearly shown.
*You may be right about the first Jordan podium, although you need to be careful, because the Jordan team did race under the Irish flag, in some seasons at least, so we need to be sure that it was a flag for Irvine and not for the team. I believe that there was also one occasion on which Irvine was mistakenly given the Irish flag.
*The magazine article is interesting though. Can you give details - in particular, what date? As I understand it he could claim Irish nationality, as he was (obviously!) born before 2004. Could the answer perhaps be that he has taken Irish citizenship since he left F1? In that case the UK flag would remain (because that's the one he appeared under in F1), but the article should read something like 'Eddie Irvine is an Irish former Formula One racing driver. He was born in Northern Ireland and competed in Formula One as a British citizen. In (insert year here) he took up Irish citizenship'. Very happy to do that if we can locate references.
*I know he lives in Dublin, but that has no relevance to his nationality, either now or when he was racing. Many F1 drivers live in Monaco, but there hasn't been a Monagesque (sp.?) since Olivier Beretta in the early 1990s.
Hopefully if we work on this together we can get to a satisfactory compromise. Cheers. 4u1e 08:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: By the way, I'm guessing I'm dealing with one person here for the recent changes, but you haven't got an account and seem to be editing from multiple IP addresses. This makes it difficult for us to work together on this. I'd recommend you get an account, but if not could you at least sign yourself with some kind of tally? (e.g. in the same way that I would put '4u1e' if I couldn't log in). Thanks. 4u1e 08:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alternatively, we could just state where he is form from and not worry about nationality. ie: Edmund "Eddie" Irvine (b. November 10, 1965, Newtownards, Northern Ireland) is a former Formula One racing driver. Stu ’Bout ye! 09:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I've got no problem with that in the intro text but we need to put something in the F1 driver infobox to maintain consistency with all the other articles. He also needs a nationlity to be listed in race and championship results. As I say, I'm almost 100% certain that he raced as a UK driver throughout his career, so this should be the Union Flag.  Something else to consider is that while I'm happy to follow your suggestion for the text, there will always be passing editors who, according to personal preference, will edit it to read British/Irish etc etc. If we can give a really specific definition, with references, the chances of this are reduced somewhat. Cheers. 4u1e 09:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, see what you mean about the infobox. Yes, he raced as a British driver and the Union Flag was used for all his podiums accept once and that was a mistake if I remember right. The Ulster Banner was never used. Stu ’Bout ye! 10:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is something that could become a bit of a problem, as it's spreading to other articles - see Tom Pryce.  I think that we must be careful not to allow any exceptions to the British flag in the infobox because otherwise we'll have non-verified local flags appearing all over the place.  As has been said, he raced under the British flag and we should use it in the infobox.  At the same time, I think it's very important to clarify in the first paragraph where Irvine was from - his "ethnicity" if you like - and also mention if he's taken Irish citizenship since he stopped racing (with sources of course).  Bretonbanquet 20:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It tends to go in waves. We could propose at WP:F1 that the standard wording for all UK drivers should be "X is a British (former) Formula One racing driver from (England/Northern Ireland/Scotland/Wales)." And add that the nationality should be UK with the Union Flag in the infobox and race results. Which seems to cover the main options. Sadly Andy Priaulx never really made it to F1, or we'd have a different problem again. Actually in his case, he's not technically British, is he? I don't know how passports work for the Channel Islands, which I believe are dependencies of the crown or some such phrase. 4u1e 21:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd go along with your standard wording proposal, it sounds pretty fair.  As for the Channel Islands, I'm glad we don't have that problem :o)  Do they have a Channel Islands passport?  Same goes for Isle of Man, I suppose. Bretonbanquet 21:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: We'll go to the version suggested above then - which also seems to be supported so far at WP:F1. 4u1e 12:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality 

message: Surely we could do with a better image of Eddie Irvine than we currently have? --Mouse Nightshirt 18:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. It's not easily identifiable as Irvine. Surely there are better ones available.--jeanne (talk) 14:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: "He is a friend of the U2 frontman Bono, who taught him how to play the guitar."
I thought it was Chris Rea who taught him play guitar. Can somebody confirm it? 86.101.132.100 15:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bono or Chris Rea? 

message: Irvine's new official website uses info from this article. This article did not copy the information verbatim - it was actually the other way around! :) --Mal 17:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info from this article used in new webpage 

message: Mal - I've replaced the trivia tag. The guidelines seem to be quite clear on this, articles shouldn't really have them. Certainly if they aspire GA or FA status. For what it's worth, here's my view on what could be done with the elements listed under trivia:
*He is a friend of the U2 frontman Bono, who taught him how to play the guitar. Trivial, but interesting. As Irvine has quite a reputation as a playboy, could a section perhaps be worked up on Irvine's well publicised social life, where this would fit quite nicely.
*Irvine had a brief fling with actress and model Pamela Anderson, who broke off the romance claiming that "Eddie was just too sweet for me." (June, 2006). Trivial. I'm inclined to say ditch it, although I suppose it could go in a 'Social life' section in a sentence such as: 'Irvine has been connected in the press with a variety of famous women, including Pamela Anderson, X, Y and Z' (I'm sure there must be loads of others!)
*According to the Sunday Times Rich List, published in April 2006, Irvine is now the fifth richest person of Northern Ireland, having increased his personal fortune to approximately £160 million. Very relevant, could be worked in with some mention of his life outside F1, particularly his investments.
*Irvine is known for his extravagant helmet designs including a shamrock and a jaguar. Better known than anyone else? I'd say this is too trivial, unless we want to do a 'Helmet' section, as per Alain Prost, Damon Hill or Michael Schumacher. Personally of those three I think Hill is the only one where it's sufficiently notable to include, and that's only because he used his father's racing colours. My vote would be to delete it.
*He has been linked to a future role at the Spyker MF1 Racing Formula One team. Is this still current? If not, it can go, I think. 4u1e 17:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 4 - my attitude is WP:SOFIXIT. The trivia guideline (and that's all it is) box is just excessive and needless. I disagree with the guideline in any case, and certainly the manifestation of this box. I happen to think that 'trivia' sections are useful to both researcher and casual users both. I do agree with some aspects of the guidelines that had been in place before this new box was created.. for example "Irvine once killed a fly with his Ferrari" is going a bit far! --Mal 09:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Further comment - I agree with every one of your points above. :) --Mal 09:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And it's a fair point - to which the usual response is that it's quicker to point out problems than it is to fix them. To which you can further respond that's there's probably more value in fixing a small number of problems than in pointing out a large number of problems and doing nothing about them. Etc, etc, etc. Plus I'm a consensus kind of guy! It's not something I feel that strongly about. If I get a chance I'll fix it, if I don't, I won't object further if you remove the tag. Fair? Cheers. 4u1e 12:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia section

message: Having found some articles in relation to this, thought I'd share them:
* Google Books, Events Design and Experience, by Graham Berridge "There were other problems when Eddie Irvine was on the podium for the first time. Eddie comes from Ireland but as he is from the Northern part he is considered to be British and so a Union Jack was flown. This upset the Irish nationalists who demanded that an Irish flag be flown and threatened Eddie and his family with violence. When an Irish flag was flown there were threats from the Irish extremists who want Eddie to be British. Irvine asked the FIA to fly a neutral flag and play a neutral song!"
* The Independent, 25-04-97 "Eddie Irvine would like to think he will discover on Sunday if the authorities are prepared to meet his request for a flag depicting a shamrock to be displayed on the podium in his honour. Better still, if they are prepared to play the non- sectarian Londonderry Air to mark his victory. The Ulsterman stood beneath the Irish tricolour after taking second place in Buenos Aires and, as a result, his parents received threatening phone calls. Irvine, who lives in the Republic and is licensed as a racing driver there, wants to avoid any implied commitment to either the tricolour or the Union flag, suggesting the shamrock symbol would be a politically and socially acceptable compromise. He said: "It can be a help being Irish and British, and this has not caused me problems, but it has for my father and mother back home, and people who work for me. Politics should be kept out of sport."
* Eddie Irvine FAQ "What was all the fuss about what flag is on the podium? Well, Northern Ireland had a bit of a Civil War from the late 1960's until the Good Friday Agreement. Just under half the population wants to be part of Ireland (Nationalists), the other half want to remain part of the United Kingdom (Unionists). Each side follows their own flag, Irish Tricolour for Nationalists, Union Jack for Unionists. Eddie is Protestant, so in theory he is an Unionist. But he isn’t, he’s neutral, as is most of the people here. Now, he should because of his birthplace have a Union Jack flying, but because he had an Irish racing license the FIA decreed he should have a Tricolour flying. Which caused no end of trouble for his parents back home. Eddie himself wanted a neutral flag but in the end it was decided that the Union Jack and the Tricolour would be shown on alternate visits to the podium."
So basically what can be gleaned is: from the first source, that a Union Jack was flown after his first podium finish, i.e. the 1995 Canadian Grand Prix; from the second source, that a Tricolour was flown at the 1997 Argentine Grand Prix (which is his third podium finish); and from the third source, that thereafter it alternated between the two.
What we don't know is what flag was flown at the 1996 Australian Grand Prix, his second podium finish.
Thus, what I would suggest is that in the "nationality" field we display both British and Irish flags; that no changes be made to the current verbatim of the lead section (although maybe there would be a mention that he raced under both British and Irish flags?); and that a paragraph be added below the lead section explaining what the above links suggest. Any other suggestions, ideas, etc.? --Schcambo (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting, although I'm not sure I'm convinced yet (because I don't think he actually did appear more than once under the Irish flag, I also don't think he actually did have an Irish superlicense, although he did have an Irish national racing license - obviously the onus is on me to support that view). I think we probably have to discount the last reference, it's a self published website, which is a no-no in terms of referencing (see WP:RS). The other two look OK, certainly the Independent, less so for the other one because it's not really about F1 and may have played a bit loose with the details. 4u1e (talk) 10:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Can't find any evidence of the issue coming up again during the season (I'm using Newsbank via my local library's subscription, by the way). On that basis, I'll re-dit the article to take the Irish flag out of the infobox again. It seems certain that he did (as always concluded before) race under the Union flag, with one exception, which was due to a mix-up. Anyone got Irvine's autobiography? 4u1e (talk) 12:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Oddly, the pic of Irvine at Macau in F3 at the top of the page shows a Union Flag stencilled on the car above his name. Those things don't really have any official status, but it seems strange, since by my understanding he really should have been racing under the Irish flag at that race! 4u1e (talk) 12:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality (part three) 

message: I'm surprised there is nothing mentioned in the article about his romantic life. He's got a reputation for being a bit of a jack the lad.--jeanne (talk) 14:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Difficult to ref suitably, and not necessarily that relevant. 4u1e (talk) 17:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nothing about his private life

message: (comment moved from Irish or British (part two) above)
To add to the discussion, this YouTube video, from the 1995 Canada race, seems to show that Irvine has an Irish tricolour flown above him, not the Union Jack, as suggested in the article? Look about 3:51  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.9.112 (talk) 23:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A few minutes searching on YouTube brought up France 1997 (0:15), Argentia 1998 (10:05), Japan 1998 (0:43) and  Canada 1999 (3:51). All with the Union Flag. 4u1e (talk) 15:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, that was my comment earlier. I agree it doesn't change the fundamental point, but it does mean that that sentence is completely incorrect. WilliamF1two (talk) 20:07, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you're right. Hang on - let me check the source for that section if I can. If it really does say what the article says we have a bit of a problem, as I don't suppose that Youtube material is on there with the permission of the copyright owners, so we can't really use it as a source.  4u1e (talk) 20:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, the given reference doesn't mention Canada 1995 at all, so I suggest we just remove mention of first race and mention what is in the reference.  4u1e (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. The fact that the 'wrong' flag was also used in Canada 1995 could also be mentioned with a proper source, but I don't think YouTube counts as such. 4u1e (talk) 20:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag at 1995 Canadian Grand Prix

message: change bilography to bibliography
171.48.10.122 (talk) 11:08, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out - Arjayay (talk) 12:20, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2016 

message: Table is not complete:
| Championships = 0 (2nd in 1999)
77.48.225.5 (talk) 00:03, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: - we only chmpionship winners - as with other drivers such as Felipe Massa - Arjayay (talk) 07:24, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2016 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Please could someone make the requested edits of 12 and 17 December 2016? 86.30.73.153 (talk) 17:18, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Why does it seem like the edit requests of 12 and 17 December are being ignored? After initial enthusiasm about the edit request of 12 December, nothing has happened about it. Both edit requests improve the article about Eddie Irvine. The Eddie Irvine article is being protected to prevent vandalism, but it seems to me it is also hindering improvement. 86.30.73.153 (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

text: Not done: This is not an edit request. — JJMC89 (T·C) 18:39, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  It represents two edit requests that have so far been ignored. Please will you action the edit requests of 12 and 17 December, and if not, why not? Thank you. 86.30.73.153 (talk) 20:23, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

text: Not done:  B E C K Y  S A Y L E S  04:30, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2016 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Are you sure his name is pronounced  and not ?
DaanTW (talk) 20:39, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This 1999 Esquire interview says: "As for the debate surrounding the pronunciation of his surname ("Ir-vine" or "Irvin"?), there's no definitive judgement. He told Esquire back in 1996 that "my dad says 'Irvin' and my mum says 'Ir-vine'." Forever laid-back, he says he doesn't mind either way". DH85868993 (talk) 21:31, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you for your quick response! DaanTW (talk) 10:24, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA pronunciation key 

message: The following passage from the section Formula One Career is contradicted by the source quoted. Other sources do not corroborate this passage-
“In an effort to retain Irvine, Jaguar offered him a $6 million reduction in his salary, however no agreement was reached.“
 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/jan/24/formulaone.christaylor 
The current source (above) suggests that Irvine indicated a willingness to Jordan to accept a reduction to his 2002 salary of $6m but Jordan wanted a driver who would bring money into the team. 
Source  http://www.atlasf1.com/grapevine/2002/sep/report.php/id/791/.html  suggests that this offer was also made to Jaguar. 
Suggested edit “In an effort to retain his seat, Irvine indicated a willingness to accept a reduction to his salary of $6 million however, no agreement was reached.”  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.136.40 (talk) 12:03, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The sentence you quote is indeed an utter misread of the provided sources. Firstly, his salary was 6 million British pounds, not US dollars. Secondly, 6 million was the amount he earned, not the amount his salary was proposed to be reduced by. Lastly, Irvine was the one who offered to take a reduction, not the team (why would anyone even consider signing to earn 6 million less?). Tvx1 09:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2021 

message: On the last day of editing this article in each of the preceding months for this year - 30 August, 11 July, 6 June, 9 May, 25 April, 21 March, 25 February and 22 January, the lead sentence has read  Therefore, , when I restore to that version, I am restoring the consensus version. There is simply no need to refer (confusingly) to Irvine racing under a British licence in the lead sentence while also stating he's from Northern Ireland. The infobox still lists him as a British driver, and the article explains the whole nationality thing at sufficient length in the body. It is absolutely common practice on Wikipedia to refer to people from Northern Ireland as... well "from Northern Ireland." BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:08, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The word British had actually been included  until a user called Sokopoko started meddling with the article and their edits were not correctly reverted. Also the word doesn't refer to his racing licence, but to his legal nationality as acknowledged on his passport. He is a citizen of the United Kingdom and the demonyn for the nationality of such citizens is British. That's the simple reality and since British FIA racing drivers compete under their British nationality only, that's how we refer to them across Wikipedia. This style of opening sentence is what we use for all British FIA racing drivers and there is no justification to make Irvine an exception. Tvx1 08:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly - as pointed out above - consensus changed, for well over a year. I'm disputing nothing about where Irvine competed under. I am stating that its absolutely normal practice to just refer to people from Northern Ireland just as "from Northern Ireland." without any further qualifiers. I think that outranks what one WikiProject does. I'm travelling at the moment so not going to look up links, but someone like  can no doubt confirm.  There are wider concerns, such as the Troubles arbcom remedy, but I really don't want to go there.  BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:29, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Standard for people from Northern Ireland is to indicate simply that they are "from Northern Ireland" unless a strong reliable source can be provided to indicate their desired identity. While people from Northern Ireland can be (not automatically) British citizens they can also identify as Irish citizens, the choice is entirely theirs. As a result of this we do not impose a national identity upon people from Northern Ireland unless the person themselves has expressed such identity. Eddie Irvine, being born where and when they were, can freely identify as either Irish or British and it's their preference. This is firmly established in law. Just because some drives under a British racing license, or competes for the Irish olympics team, doesn't make someone that national identity when it comes to Northern Ireland. Someone from Northern Ireland can compete under a British racing license, and for the GB Olypmpic team without having British citizenship. Basically, we do not impose any kind of nationality upon someone from Northern Ireland unless they reliably self identify. Canterbury Tail talk 11:41, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead sentence 

message: This is in the 2002 section. I can’t make sense of this sentence. Why would reducing his salary make him stay? Also, earlier drafts said they offered to cut his 6M salary, which is different from cutting his salary by 6M. 
This sentence needs to be rewritten to make sense and be accurate, or excised.
Paul Richter (talk) 15:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the sentence. As you say, it made no sense. Plus it was unsourced. I think whoever wrote it was possibly getting confused with the fact that Irvine offered to drive for Jordan for £650,000, a substantial reduction from the £5 million/$6 million he'd been paid by Jaguar, per . DH85868993 (talk) 10:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  “In an effort to retain Irvine, Jaguar offered him a $6 million reduction in his salary, “