Talk:Iona

message: No mention he is buried here?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.124.248 (talk) 12:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Somerled

message: Can anyone confirm this event? Finavon 19:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Monastery Of Sound

message: I've heard Iona was a "centre of learning", I've head that learning and religion were highly corelated in antiquity.  Can anyone add to the article regarding general learning and instruction, impact on the professional communities.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.168.116.148 (talk) 13:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Centre of Learning

message: This article could really use a map to show exactly where Iona is Thefuguestate 11:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Map?

message: Columba was exiled from Ireland as a result of the Battle of Cul Dreimhne, in order to save soul equal to the number that were killed in the battle - thought to be around 3000. Velkyal 10:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Columba Choose to leave?

message: Dear Deacon - you have removed "Possibly Norse for 'island of the den of the brown bear' ", which is a statement made by Haswell-Smith. He has been caught out recently claiming that 'Uist' is derived form the Old Norse for 'west'. which Talk:Old Norse are not happy with. Here is what he says: "In very early times called I [ee], IO, HIA, or IOUA - possibly from the Norse Hioe [ee-e] meaning island of the den of the brown bear. Later named ICOLMKILL (G. I Chaluim cille - island of Calum's monastery.... IOUA became corrupted to IONA in the 18th century through a typo... ." Any further information gratefully received. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, missed this, am unable to devote time to wiki atm. However, I will answer you're query. The name for Iona was simply Í (pronounced EE). Don't know what your Latin is like, but if you know any you'll know how hard it is to decline Í in that language. Well, that's exactly what medieval writers had to do. It gave Bede problems, however Adomnan came up with Ioua as the solution. Us  in the writing of the period are almost identical to Ns (this is how St Uinniau became St Niniau/Ninian in Latin texts), hence Iona and hence why we know that the name Iona cannot possibly be Norse. The modern English name is fairly neologistic ... just taken from the Latin (the medieval Scottish English was the same as the Gaelic). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  BTW, don't ask me where Í comes from, I dunno; but we'd have to have Norse expansion before the days of Columba for it to be of Norse origin. ;) As for Haswell-Smith, to speak generously, the topic is clearly not one he chose to research properly. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of island

message: I have added back the intro as I can't see an explanation for its removal. Ditto the comment about Brythonic as I can't understand the explanation for its removal! (There may well be a good one). 
I can't understand "The earliest form of the name indicated to place-name scholar William J. Watson it originally meant something like "yew-place"". Does this mean something like "The earliest form of the name according to place-name scholar William J. Watson suggests it originally meant something like "yew-place""?
I see what you are attempting to do with the table but it looks pretty awful on my browser at present. If you don't like folk etymology I can make it a separate sub-section, but I like the story. Ben MacDui 20:06, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see through your browser, maybe you'd want to clean it up for that. It works fine in mine. Or else, can you think of a better way of organising it? Re folk etymology, it reminds me too much of the "trivia" sections that used to be so common on wiki. I suppose there might be room for if it is treated separately from real etymology. Presentation is probably key. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

text: The list is very incomplete. Adomnan's is the earliest there (though I don't think it's the earliest). Ivo- means yew I think, but Watson thought Iona came from Ivova meaning "yew-place". Ak will be able to elaborate on the rules that underly the changing phonology, like disappearance of unstressed syllables and grammatical endings ... Watson's piece is very thorough though on the point. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:32, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: On the move so not got any sources with me. The H+Vowel variations are all relatively easy to derive from each other as Goidelic often re-interprets initial fricatives by assuming lenition and reversing it or by dropping the offending fricative. So if H+Vowel was a loan, we'd *expect* just the Vowel or t+Vowel, possibly s+Vowel. So it is highly likely that all the Hii/Hy/Eo/Eu/Ì are reflexes of the same underlying word. Ivo(va) is a little trickier, though not impossible. You mentiond Watson being thorough, what is it he's saying? I can think of various ways in which you could derive either from t' other but would be hard to prove. Akerbeltz (talk) 08:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding Norwegian hi "cave" - surely the giver language would have been Norse, not Norwegian? That aside, I think it is nigh impossible to argue that Norse > Latin is responsible for the loss of initial h- when Goidelic is equally disliking of initial fricatives (except s). What is the basis of this claim that hi > i is based on Norse to Latin? Akerbeltz (talk) 09:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was not aware that Goidelic is equally disliking of initial fricatives. It only makes "Hi-ey" more likely. St.Trond (talk) 16:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

text: The norse name would include híð and ey, in Norwegian it would be hi and øy: Hiøy. Don't ask me about Latin. Wish you luck. St.Trond (talk) 15:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: One of the reasons I am interested in Murray and his druids is that his beginning words to the chapter include "long before Christ, Iona was a centre of worship by the Druids". The current history section on the article page repeats this idea: "Prior to the 6th century, Iona may already have been a sacred island in the pre-Christian traditions of the Iron Age inhabitants of the Hebrides. Though there is no actual physical evidence for this, it would explain why Columba settled on this particular island." I don't have anything to hand that provide a definitive view, and there may be no evidence for this idea at all. Either way, I think it is interesting that a 20th century writer (who possibly got much of his information from locals rather than libraries) should promote the idea. Ben MacDui 20:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: how to pronouce it? 77.45.34.114 (talk) 20:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: ?

message: Ye Deacon removed the following text: "The Hebrides have been occupied by the speakers of at least four languages since the Iron Age, and as a result many of the names of these islands have more than one possible meaning. Nonetheless few, if any, can have accumulated so many different names over the centuries as the island now known in English as "Iona"."
It is not clear to me which sentence is supposed to be misleading - perhaps both? Neither are cited, but neither seem to be to be especially problematic and I have restored the text with an amendment so that it reads the vague "several" rather than "at least four".  The languages are potentially:
* Proto-Celtic - although I am sure I can find a cite that says something to the effect that some island names may contain elements of a pre-Celtic language, but no certain knowledge of any pre-Pictish language exists anywhere in Scotland.
* Pictish/Brythonic was spoken at some point in the past, although we know the status of Pictish is moot.
* I think we can agree that Gaelic, Old Norse and English have been spoken in the Hebrides.
* Views on the the stature of the Scots language are varied. 
I make that at least 3, and in my view it's at least 5 even excluding Pictish.
I have not citation to hand for the second sentence although H-Smith lists about seven variants, which is unusual at the very least. Ben MacDui 18:00, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, only two languages are attested being spoken there ever, English (very recently) and Gaelic/Celtic. I guess Norse could be added (it's plausible), but "at least 4 languages" is bringing in much more certainty than any historian possesses. You amended the offending sentence at least, though don't see much usefulness in the paragraph. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I read that "Captain Thomas, R.N., who very carefully investigated the subject some forty years ago, reports that in the Lews Norse names outnumber the Gaelic ones by four to one, and that in all Harris there are only two pre-Norse or Celtic names.". Even is this is an exaggeration I think it is evidence that more than hints at the language being spoken. Watson (p. xxxi) is happy to admit to a pre-Celtic population. Everything attested may be true, but not all that is true is attested. Sláinte, skol etc. Ben MacDui 10:40, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's the Hebrides (and yes, it's exaggerated). At a quick glance (yes, OR) the only place-name on Iona that looks like it might not Gaelic is Loch Staoineag. The adjacent bits of Mull are also seemingly devoid of Norse elements or even elements that don't look clearly Gaelic. That of course is not proof that no other languages were ever spoken there but I think we'd better tread carefully with our claims here given how monolingually Gaelic Iona and that corner of Mull look. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:58, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Going through Iona Past and Present, there are some Norse place-names after all - all of two: Eilean Chalbha (Calf Island), Mùsimul (Mouse-holm). It's patchy evidence. Is there any archeology that points to Norse activity other than raiding? Akerbeltz (talk) 12:55, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

text: I'm sure Norse had been used on the island, but in what sense is that meaningful? The island's primary inhabitants for 1000 years were Irish and mainland Scottish aristocrats who didn't have children. The island is too small to support any independent polity, and is too important for anyone trying such a thing to succeed. The monastery seems to have been constantly in use throughout the Norse period, overlooked by the Cenél nEógain, the Cenél Conaill and the Scots (whose rulers after 1034 were probably from the family of abbots of Dunkeld, daughter house of Iona). Hebridean Gaelic has of course high Norse influenced content, probably much higher in the central Middle Ages due to later archaicizing from the prestige dominance of Classical Irish; this is not Norse however, any more than Middle English is French. But even if we go out on a limb for Norse, that's still only 3. Obviously the island had pre-Celtic inhabitants before the Iron Age, but not necessarily since. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:02, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Well I think that's what it does say, but by all means add to the level of vagueness if that will lead to a quieter life. Note that the para begins "The Hebrides have been occupied" and so far as I know there is no firm evidence of significant Norse occupation on Iona itself (Amlaíb Cuarán "retired" there— one wonders what language he wrote his postcards home in). The place name information is however interesting - in the modern era we don't give French and German names to places just because they are our neighbours and occasional visitors. We are also missing another language in our list for Iona - one that was clearly spoken and indeed sung and would seem to be attested - Latin - which must have been a lingua franca throughout the isles for many centuries. I make that seven languages spoken by residents of the Hebrides in the last 3,000 years - it's really only in Argyll/Dalriada that the "Gaelic only" hypothesis holds up. Ben MacDui 09:13, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately "vagueness" is just a accurate reflection of the evidence. Movie-makers make stuff up for better stories, encyclopedias don't. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:06, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there is a "better" story one way or the other - I am only referring to evidence for multiple languages being spoken over a broad area over a long period of history. I am quite willing to be persuaded this is wrong, but see e.g. Woolf's "The Age of the Sea-Kings: 900-1300"  p. 95 or Gammeltoft's "Scandinavian Naming-Systems in the Hebrides—A Way of Understanding how the Scandinavians were in Contact with Gaels and Picts?" in Ballin Smith's West Over Sea. Happy to provide a copy if need be. Ben MacDui 07:48, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Woolf's article at p. 95 doesn't even mention Iona. Not sure what you're pressing for. :) There was a misleading passage, and you yourself have fixed it. End of story, surely? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:45, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology intro 

message: If Iona is regarded as "St. Columba's Island", and "columba" is Latin for "dove", isn't is curious that the Hebrew word for "dove" is "יונה" (pronounced "YO-na")? 88.203.176.7 (talk) 00:02, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd noticed that too. And of course the prophet Jonah, whose name means dove, has some parallel motifs to Columba in his biography. But of course it is just a coincidence. Iona has only had an 'n' since the 18th century. --Doric Loon (talk) 09:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew Connection? 

message: It must be very hard to renown an island: 
It was a centre of Irish monasticism for four centuries and is today renowned[by whom?] 
Who was that heroe? Hercules? Obelix? A Gaelic knight? --82.58.112.36 (talk) 15:34, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renowned by whom? 

message: Via the Brecbennoch the Scot army was blessed before going into battle ... this reliquary / engine of blessing originated on the Isle of Iona with St Columba / Ilse of Iona relics / the Brecbennoch was supposed by all to have originated on the Isle of Iona, its former relics thought to be from St Columba (a Christian saint missionary from Ireland) who lived there (relics thought to be his bones e.g.)  ... also related to what the relics actually were is the 'high' Christian 'higher' forms of rites, shown proven there in the Iona monastery courtyard - where an 'imprint' of the 'skull and cross bones' which represents the AO, the Alpha & Omega of Christ ... which you SEE in viewing the "holy mountain" with Christ stretching forth his arm to create the whole universe (right arm) (alpha) and dropped down alongside him , his left arm ends with the (Omega) symbol of skull & cross bones.... So rather than the Brecbennoch today BEING empty, it is the source of 'blessing' fo the Scot army advancing in battle ... an engine / technology engine of this blessing from that Godhead / Holy Mountain / all power .... This blessing of any army you also see in Asia related, similar blessings where the Shogun, Duke, Prince, Emperor (e.g. in Japan) extends his 'fan' forth to wave down blessing upon his army (3x) .... SO THE SYMBOLS Brenocbennoch demonstrate the technique / flow of this blessing ... THAT is what the ART is here ,,,,Vand so discussing ART / symbol shape divorced from its MEANING & use ... is meaningless ... as just proven. LIL ARDRI SR, high king AO 47.18.43.166 (talk) 00:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Add ? St Columba battle blessing

message: If Haswell-Smith claims Iona is "an 18th-century misreading" of Ioua, he is simply mistaken. Broderick has a c.1276 attestation; see  for more medieval instances. jnestorius(talk) 16:25, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  an 18th-century misreading 

message: I remember reading it from an English language map in the varsity; the only source I can find now is here (page 261). From what's been written so far, I guess this derivation is spurious anyway. 176.221.123.116 (talk) 15:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another proposed etymology of "Iona": "Í-shona" 

message: What could the six territorial subdivisions of Iona be? They are smaller than civil parishes, since the whole island does not even constitute one civil parish, but belongs to one. The order of magnitude would be like townlands, but those seem to exist in Ireland only, not Scotland?--Ratzer (talk) 20:09, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iona subdivisions 

message: Removed some material from geography into geology and this: There are Torridonian sedimentary rocks on the eastern sideG. J. Potts, R. H. Hunter, A. L. Harris and F. M. Fraser (Nov 1955) "Late-orogenic extensional tectonics at the NW margin of the Caledonides in Scotland". GeoScience World. Retrieved 27 May 2011. entirely as the reference doesn't directly provide any info on the topic. Geopersona (talk) 11:02, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geology 

message: Earlier I removed the "Scots name" added to the article by YoungstownToast in 2020. However, it has since been replaced by Cactus.man. I'm not sure what benefit there is in listing the same name twice, once in English and once in Scots (a dialect not in fact native to Iona), but perhaps Cactus.man can explain. Zacwill (talk) 12:51, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @User:Zacwill Yes, I reverted your bold edit because that entry had been present unchallenged for over 3 years, thus becoming effectively "status quo ante". I think that essentially means that any removal should at least be subject to discussion to reach broad consensus for such an edit. I understand your argument about linguistic redundancy, but I think the Guide and gazetteer produced by the Scots Language Centre is a suffuciently reliable source of information that contains multiple examples of such liguistic redundancy, that the entry may be worthy of retention. Perhaps that discussion can take place now, although I have no strong opinion for keeping or removing. What do others think? --Cactus.man ✍ 16:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  If YoungstownToast was under no obligation to form a consensus before adding the name to the article, then I'm not sure why I should need to form one before removing it. All kinds of dodgy material gets added to Wikipedia without immediately being challenged, so the fact that the edit has not been called into question until now is not a strong argument in favour of retention. Since no better arguments have materialized, I am inclined to remove it again. Zacwill (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: In support of the above, I have personally encountered cases in which obvious nonsense was left unchallenged on this website for almost a decade. Longstanding-ness means little on Wikipedia. Zacwill (talk) 18:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scots name