Talk:Stateless communism

message: This entire section is nothing more than poorly written editorialising. It makes assertions based on no evidence (unsurprisingly, since nobody is claiming that Stateless Communism actually exists anywhere). I can see no reason why it should not be deleted entirely AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:04, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, stateless communism has existed. You should read about Anarchist Spain. 99.236.15.197 (talk) 10:38, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

text: Well, the section as it currently exists is, as you say, almost entirely editorializing, but it should be possible to include a section on broadly this topic that was properly written and sourced. The problem, though, is that most criticism has traditionally focused on actually existing communist states, not the hoped-for stateless communism; I don't know if criticisms of stateless communism go beyond broad claims that it is utopian, though we could include that criticism. We could also include criticism of the idea of the withering away of the state here (particularly as Withering away of the state redirects here).VoluntarySlave (talk) 18:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I entirely agree. A properly-sourced critique section would be well worth having, though there is already a Criticisms of Marxism article which possibly covers most of this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a lot of criticism on communism and stateless societies from a theoretical standpoint, and all of this also applies to stateless communism. As long as it's properly sourced (which it seems to be, with the exception of the first part) I don't see a problem with theoretical criticism against something that is purely theoretical in the first place. --OpenFuture (talk) 18:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think one could call the existing section 'properly sourced'. The reference for 'Civilization Versus Anarchy' is to a self-published article on a website, and from what I can tell, Ludwig von Mises may never written a book called 'Human Nature' - it isn't in the Wikipedia article bibliography.AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, better sources would be needed in that case. On the other hand, reading through the article again I'm doubting that this article has any purpose by itself. It completely fails to explain what the difference from communism is, or what the difference (if any) is from the likewise theoretical final stage of development of the modes of production. As it stands now it's pretty pointless and should probably be merged, but maybe it could be expanded? --OpenFuture (talk) 05:14, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  It could do with a link to Stateless society as well - the 'archaeological and anthropological interpretation' section at least seems relevant in countering the outright dismissal in the 'theoretical problems' revision, though one needs to understand the distinction between a 'less complex' community and the sort of society that Marx envisioned. If Withering away of the state is redirected here, there ought to be a little more on the Marxist rationale for its occurrence, too - a description of what it is, without further explanation, seems a little lacking. I'm inclined to think it might be best to delete the 'theoretical problems' section for now, and instead provide a link to the Criticisms of Marxism article, with perhaps a brief précis of the more relevant details. If I can get my brain into gear, I'll maybe try to do this myself, if nobody else has further suggestions, though I'm a noob at Wikipedia editing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The beauty of Wikipedia is that someone else can fix it if you mess up, so go ahead. :-) --OpenFuture (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  How can Von Mises' book expose 'problems with communism' when no communist society has ever existed? And as for 'systems that give vast powers... to unspecified groups of people', the objective of communism (as described by Marx) is to distribute power amongst all within society, not to concentrate it in the hands of the few. Is Von Mises book about the theoretical concept of a communist society, or about formerly existing societies that were run by 'communist parties', but considered themselves socialist - not having reached the stage of stateless communism? Unless he distinguishes between the two, his book is of no relevance to the subject. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exposing problems in theoretical communism is a theoretical exercise that typically would be done in a book of political/economical theory, like Human Action. --OpenFuture (talk) 18:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure that 'expose' is really the right word then. To expose something implies that one has demonstrated it exists, rather than merely argued that it might. 'Human Action' is available online, and I've just taken a very brief look - I don't think it appears particularly significant, in comparison to other critiques of Marxism, though it will need closer inspection.AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:53, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Expose seems to be an good choice of words. It's perfectly possible to expose problems with a theory. These problems exist, just as the theory exists. I suggest you drop this, it's not going anywhere. It's IMO perfectly acceptable to criticise an unimplementable theory by theoretical examination. In fact, it is the only way to criticise it. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: To say its 'an unimplementable theory' is just pure speculation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.59.106 (talk) 13:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Theoretical Problems with Stateless Communism 

message: I have deleted this section, since the only reference quoted makes no such assertions, and arguably suggests the exact opposite: "In the end, civilized societies are nothing more than anarchy with legal recourse. When wars occur, this indicates society has re-embraced the purity of anarchy. It's re-embraced every time a war or 'state of emergency' is officially declared. Anarchy is the fallback point… it can always be counted on to solve major problems." []. I don't consider this a valid source in any case, but even if it was, it does not support the argument put in the now-removed section. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of 'Problems with Stateless Communal Ownership' section 

message: Unless I'm missing something, "stateless communism" is a tautology: communism is by definition a stateless society. Carl Marx predicted communism, not "pure communism". Please provide reputable references which dsicuss this concept as opposed to "simply communism" or some other forms of communism. Lovok Sovok (talk) 16:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Research 

message: I think the lead of this article should be incorporated into the lead section of the main article on Communism, and the rest of the points incorporated into subsections of that article. I have never heard the phrase "pure communism" in any academic publication; furthermore communism initially (and still does, in Marxist and socialist perspectives) refer to a classless, stateless society based upon common ownership of productive property and maximum individual autonomy. Battlecry (talk) 00:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with main article on Communism

message: The two references are to Engels and Bukharin, in support some basic facts about Communism. They don't introduce the term "stateless communism", because this is a tautology, by definition, communism is a stateless society.  Please do not restore the article which is an original research, tagged so for two years and criticized in talk page, without hint of improvement. Lovok Sovok (talk) 16:56, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, Lovok, I just wanted to let you know that I've declined your request for a third opinion, as there appears to be no prior discussion about this specific debate (I saw the discussion above, but it appears to be a year and a half stale and doesn't involve the other editor currently in question).  3O is intended for discussions which have come to a standstill.  If you can get the other editor engaged in a dialogue here, and the discussion becomes deadlocked, feel free to repost your 3O request.  Thanks! Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:18, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I asked for third opinion precisely because the discussion had come to a standstill and stays so since 2010. I didn't see the arguments that prove that the text in question in not original research, i.e., the notion of "stateless communism" has something unique, but my attempts to implement the wikipedia rule WP:NOR, based on old discussions, was met with knee-jerk reverts from people who neither discussed the issue nor contributed to the article. I believe I waited sufficiently long time.  Therefore I have to ask for people who actually look into the issue, not just some formal "drive-through" editing. Lovok Sovok (talk) 19:32, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine; it's just that 3O's not the right venue for it. 3O is more for disputes that are at a standstill because neither side can agree, not because neither side has posted about it for a year or more.  You might want to try the original research noticeboard; that's probably more what you want.  Thanks! Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: can this entry be deleted already? No scholarly concept, no sources, and a tautology.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goti1233 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Time to go

message: This article should be merged with Communist society and World communism because they are all about the same topic (a fully-developed communist system/society). Moreover, I have never heard the term "stateless communism" used in canonical literature on the subject; Marxist theorists presume that communism is by definition stateless. -Battlecry 11:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to merge this article with the much better sourced article Communist society which covers statelessness as a feature of a fully-developed communist system. This article relies heavily on primary sources and is poorly sourced. -Battlecry 06:18, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal