Talk:Grossglockner

message: Schoolbook and schoolteaching 1989/1993: Height = 3797m.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.225.36.67 (talk) 23:40, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remark / correction to height 

message: Seems like we've had this discussion about a zillion times already, but I don't think the use of "ß" instead of "ss" is quite right in the English forms of names. For instance, my Encyclopedia of the World's Mountains, which is pretty authoritative, uses "ss". Stan 06:02, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Redir is good - but your point about pronunciation is why there's an English version of the name - the average English speaker would not recognize the difference between "ss" and "ß". I studied German for several years, dunno if I could pick it out reliably. See ß for amusing detail. Stan 14:57, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titling 

message: The translation of Großglockner to English as "Big bell" is wrong. Big bell would be translated into German as "große Glocke". "-glockner" doesn't mean anything at all in contemporary German. It might etymologically derive from "Glocke" (its shape resembles a bell) or from "Gold-klocken" (a notion for mining gold). Both interpretations are highly speculative. Therefore I removed the "German" translation. Gugganij 15:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation of Großglockner to English 

message: Standard English spelling of this name from the entry on the WP:RM page. – AxSkov (☏)
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:Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
*Support. See above. – AxSkov (☏) 09:22, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Again I ask you: What is your preferred name for the alphabet used to write such languages as English, German, French and Icelandic? - Haukur Þorgeirsson 08:57, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Please read the article on ß. While it may historically be a ligature for 'ss' it is today usually thought of as a separate letter and has a phonetic value distinct from 'ss'. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 21:52, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Add any additional comments
There is currently a discussion about the use of ß in article titles at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), let's wait what comes out of that. Markussep 10:38, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Furthermore, there is no "standard English spelling" for an Austrian mountain like this. There is only good German and bad German. Großglockner is good German; Grossglockner is bad German. --Stemonitis 10:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, actually there is plenty of English-language literature that establishes a "standard English spelling". For instance, Huxley's Encyclopedia of the World's Mountains puts its entry at "Grossglockner", as does my tourist guide to Austria (from Off the Beaten Track series). It's like "Milan" vs "Milano" - "Milan" is bad Italian, but good English. Stan 16:15, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Milan example is different. That's where there is an English name that can be used (regardless of where it came from). It's the same situation as Vienna, which is good English, Wien being the correct German. Milan is not bad anything, merely the (correct) English name for an Italian city. Großglockner has no English name, which is why we can only call it Großglockner. Since we're using a German name, we should use German spelling. --Stemonitis 07:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you continue to say that the mountain "has no English name", when I've just cited two printed works that clearly use "Grossglockner"? And those are just the ones that happen to be on my personal bookshelves. If you have an English-language printed source that goes the other way, please cite it. Stan 18:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't think your citations are proof that the English name of Großglockner is Grossglockner. It looks to me like they had technical difficulty printing the ß, and printed the closest "feasible" thing, being "ss". Is there a ß in the books you cited, for instance in names? Vienna, Milan, Venice and Cologne are English names, and they're clearly different from the originals. Grossglockner isn't, in my opinion. Markussep 18:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what you get when you have foreigners and deluded native English speakers dictating to us what is good English spelling and what is bad spelling. The letter ß is not used in English, so the 'ss' is perfectly acceptable to use in its place. It's not that these print media can't print ß, because they can, it's just 'ss' is perfectly acceptable to use. You can always use the ß spelling as disambiguation in the articles first line, just not in the article title. I have never come across the letter ß in any reference books unless its an article about the letter itself. Mark 05:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, let's avoid personal attacks such as "deluded" and stick to the matter at hand. --Stemonitis 06:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Casual perusal of my refs doesn't show any others, but that doesn't clarify why they did or did not use ß. To someone unfamiliar with German, it sure looks a lot like a B, so I imagine many editors decide not to send visitors off looking for "Grobglockners" and "schlobs". :-) In the complete opposite direction, my Michelin guide to Germany uses ß everywhere, but of course the only German peak familiar to the English-speaking world is the Brocken. So perhaps the Michelin guide to Austria would say "Großglockner". In any case, let's get more citations - I'm pretty sure nobody arguing here is a world-class authority on the English language, so let's get more input from actual experts. Stan 16:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

text:  There is a world of difference between something like Chinese or Tamil which uses an entirely different alphabet (or non-alphabetic writing system) and therefore needs to be transliterated, and something like German which uses fundamentally the same alphabet, with one or two minor additions. A non German speaker confronted with "Großglockner" will still have a good idea of how it's said, whereas a word like ऑस्ट्रिया cannot be read. It may not be the "standard" Latin alphabet (Latin also didn't use J, U or W), but it is basically the Latin alphabet nonetheless. Naturally, Chinese names should be transliterated or translated; the same rules do not necessarily apply to German, French, Icelandic and other languages that use characters not commonly present in English words. --Stemonitis 08:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Not among the capital letters. See ß. --Stemonitis 09:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, this one was really close. Perhaps it was closed prematurely, though I haven't got enough experience with WP:RM to know what's normal. Do you want to reopen/extend the debate, Philip? Or should we concentrate on discussing the issue of ß in general? Or maybe I'll just go and do something crazy like actually write some articles :) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 12:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See my talk page.Philip Baird Shearer 13:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Sounds reasonable. Thank you. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 13:03, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I missed the vote on this, but FWIW I strongly support moving this to use "ss" spelling. This is the English-language Wikipedia and it is sufficient to provide a German-language gloss in the first sentence. older≠wiser 20:46, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move (2005)

message: :Add any additional comments
There is currently a discussion about the use of ß in article titles at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), let's wait what comes out of that. Markussep 10:38, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore, there is no "standard English spelling" for an Austrian mountain like this. There is only good German and bad German. Großglockner is good German; Grossglockner is bad German. --Stemonitis 10:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, actually there is plenty of English-language literature that establishes a "standard English spelling". For instance, Huxley's Encyclopedia of the World's Mountains puts its entry at "Grossglockner", as does my tourist guide to Austria (from Off the Beaten Track series). It's like "Milan" vs "Milano" - "Milan" is bad Italian, but good English. Stan 16:15, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Milan example is different. That's where there is an English name that can be used (regardless of where it came from). It's the same situation as Vienna, which is good English, Wien being the correct German. Milan is not bad anything, merely the (correct) English name for an Italian city. Großglockner has no English name, which is why we can only call it Großglockner. Since we're using a German name, we should use German spelling. --Stemonitis 07:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you continue to say that the mountain "has no English name", when I've just cited two printed works that clearly use "Grossglockner"? And those are just the ones that happen to be on my personal bookshelves. If you have an English-language printed source that goes the other way, please cite it. Stan 18:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't think your citations are proof that the English name of Großglockner is Grossglockner. It looks to me like they had technical difficulty printing the ß, and printed the closest "feasible" thing, being "ss". Is there a ß in the books you cited, for instance in names? Vienna, Milan, Venice and Cologne are English names, and they're clearly different from the originals. Grossglockner isn't, in my opinion. Markussep 18:35, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what you get when you have foreigners and deluded native English speakers dictating to us what is good English spelling and what is bad spelling. The letter ß is not used in English, so the 'ss' is perfectly acceptable to use in its place. It's not that these print media can't print ß, because they can, it's just 'ss' is perfectly acceptable to use. You can always use the ß spelling as disambiguation in the articles first line, just not in the article title. I have never come across the letter ß in any reference books unless its an article about the letter itself. Mark 05:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, let's avoid personal attacks such as "deluded" and stick to the matter at hand. --Stemonitis 06:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Casual perusal of my refs doesn't show any others, but that doesn't clarify why they did or did not use ß. To someone unfamiliar with German, it sure looks a lot like a B, so I imagine many editors decide not to send visitors off looking for "Grobglockners" and "schlobs". :-) In the complete opposite direction, my Michelin guide to Germany uses ß everywhere, but of course the only German peak familiar to the English-speaking world is the Brocken. So perhaps the Michelin guide to Austria would say "Großglockner". In any case, let's get more citations - I'm pretty sure nobody arguing here is a world-class authority on the English language, so let's get more input from actual experts. Stan 16:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

text:  There is a world of difference between something like Chinese or Tamil which uses an entirely different alphabet (or non-alphabetic writing system) and therefore needs to be transliterated, and something like German which uses fundamentally the same alphabet, with one or two minor additions. A non German speaker confronted with "Großglockner" will still have a good idea of how it's said, whereas a word like ऑस्ट्रिया cannot be read. It may not be the "standard" Latin alphabet (Latin also didn't use J, U or W), but it is basically the Latin alphabet nonetheless. Naturally, Chinese names should be transliterated or translated; the same rules do not necessarily apply to German, French, Icelandic and other languages that use characters not commonly present in English words. --Stemonitis 08:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Not among the capital letters. See ß. --Stemonitis 09:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 00:52, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this one was really close. Perhaps it was closed prematurely, though I haven't got enough experience with WP:RM to know what's normal. Do you want to reopen/extend the debate, Philip? Or should we concentrate on discussing the issue of ß in general? Or maybe I'll just go and do something crazy like actually write some articles :) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 12:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See my talk page.Philip Baird Shearer 13:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Sounds reasonable. Thank you. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 13:03, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I missed the vote on this, but FWIW I strongly support moving this to use "ss" spelling. This is the English-language Wikipedia and it is sufficient to provide a German-language gloss in the first sentence. older≠wiser 20:46, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Decision

message: Some mountains take the definite article (ie the Matterhorn, the Weisshorn, the Obergabelhorn); some do not (Snowdon, Ben Nevis, Lyskamm). Großglockner is usually called 'the Großglockner'; to say 'I have climbed Großglockner' sounds as awkward as saying 'I have climbed Eiger', 'I have climbed Jungfrau' or 'I have climbed Matterhorn.' I have therefore reverted its designation to include 'the'. Ericoides 23:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of definite article 

message: What rock type is it? it's missing! OK, it's metamorphic rock. Indeed it's Prasinit (German), but without direct reference to German that's not so easy in English as it's not simply Greenschist :)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.225.142.81 (talk) 09:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rock type 

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thread_title:  External links modified