Talk:Pentacle

message: I can't seem to find [pentaculum] in any of the online Latin dictionaries.  Could it be vulgar Latin or something similar that wouldn't make it into a dictionary? Boris B 07:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an obscure word that appears in specialised magical manuscripts, and therefore may well not appear in most dictionaries. From what the OED says, it sounds like it may be the latinisation of a French word, and thus "vulgar". I've searched the esotericarchives site that has a few magical texts in Latin, but I didn't get any hits. They used to have more Latin texts, but they've been gradually finding English translations for them... Fuzzypeg☻ 05:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I've found one example! Don't know how I missed it... In Peter de Abano's Heptameron, under the heading De veste & pentaculo. Fuzzypeg☻ 23:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The word 'pentaculum' is a 1500s latinization of the italian word 'pentacolo'. The word was first published in 1527, in the book de incertitudine et vanitate scientiarum atque artium declamatio invectiva by Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa. By the way, Peter de Abano did not write the Heptameron, but rather it was someone who falsely used his name in the 1500s, most likely Johannes Trithemius. Obol patina (talk) 13:19, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

text: Apart from the fact that there's no evidence to support that etymology, which seems to be entirely based on free association. Fuzzypeg☻ 23:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  pentaculum 

message: I've taken out some extra wording labouring the point that the tarot we're talking about is occult tarot. I think more to the point it is modern tarot (i.e. after Eliphas Levi's theories). There are plenty of tarot decks out there that in my opinion aren't "occult" in the slightest, but still follow the modern conventions and put pentagrams on the coins, and even call them "pentacles". And there are people who use highly occult decks for non-occult purposes. "Occult" is too hard a distinction to make, and opens up a kettle of fish we don't really need to discuss here. Lets stick with "modern". Fuzzypeg☻ 20:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occult tarot 

message: :pentacle (ˈpɛntək(ə)l). [In med.L. pentaculum, app. f. PENTA- five + -culum, dim. or instrumental suffix, but actual history obscure. It. had pentacolo 'any thing or table of five corners' (Florio), F. had (16th c.) pentacle, something used in necromancy (Godef. says 'a five-branched candlestick').
:As applied to something worn round the neck as an amulet, some would connect it with F. pentacol, pendacol (14th c. in Godef.) a jewel or ornament hung round the neck, f. pend- hang, à to, col, cou neck.]
:A certain figure (or a material object, e.g. something folded or interlaced, of that shape) used as a symbol, esp. in magic; app. properly the same as PENTAGRAM; but also used for various other magical symbols, esp. the hexagram or six-pointed star formed by two interlaced triangles. (See also PENTANGLE I.)
:The pentacle of Solomon, in H. More 1664, is the same as the pentangle of Solomon of Sir Gawayne c 1340, Sir Thomas Browne 1646, and others.
:1594 CHAPMAN Shadow Nt., Hymnus in Cynthiam Wks. (1875) 16/2 Then in thy clear and icy pentacle, Now execute a magic miracle. 1607 DEKKER Wh. of Babylon Wks. 1873 II. 200 Take Periapts, Pentacles, and potent Charmes To coniure downe foule fiends. 1616 B. JONSON Devil an Ass I. ii, They haue..Their rauens wings, their lights, and pentacles, With characters; I ha' seene all these. 1664 H. MORE Myst. Iniq. I. xviii. §3 Their Pentacles which they hang about their necks when they conjure (which  they forsooth..call the Pentacles of Solomon) are adorned and fortified with such transcriptions out of holy Scripture. [1668-70 M. CASAUBON Credulity & Incred. (1672) 71 By certain pentacula, and seals and characters to fence themselves and to make themselves invisible against all kinds of arms and musquet bullets.] 1808 SCOTT Marm. III. xx, His shoes were marked with cross and spell; Upon his breast a pentacle. 1862 LYTTON Str. Story 1, You observe two triangles interlaced and inserted in a circle? The Pentacle in short. 1885 Sat. Rev. 19 Sept. 380/2 The sacramental [charm] bore a figure that looked like a rough copy of the pentacle.
:Hence penˈtacular a., of, pertaining to, or of the nature of a pentacle.
:In mod. Dicts.
END OF ENTRY
This is a post-1972 edition (as noted above), most likely the current (second) edition. I will confirm the edition shortly, as well as checking that there are no alterations to be found in the "new research" companion volume. Fuzzypeg☻ 20:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just confirmed it is indeed the 2nd edition, published 1989. In light of that, I'm going to revert the recent changes made to the etymology section. Fuzzypeg☻ 21:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: pentacle of Solomon = pentangle of Solomon s.v. PENTANGLE n. 1.
What's the best way to take that into account? --Macrakis 21:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I dunno; perhaps email them and set them straight? (I'm kind of serious about that) Well, how does the draft version work? How set-in-stone are the entries? They've clearly already published it in a sense, although it's for subscribers only, but how often does the version change? I think we could operate under the assumption that the draft version will not change much (or at all); therefore we can note their revision at the end of the etymology section. In the mean-time I'll be contacting them to make sure they've given due attention to the actual literature of magic! Fuzzypeg☻ 04:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: pentacle, entry from the OED (edition?)

message: GODEF. -- le Dictionnaire de l'ancienne langue française de M. Godefroy.--Vidkun 20:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Vidkun! Fuzzypeg☻ 23:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The usage was starting to annoy the hell out of me, so i googled it.  I'm surprised none of us did it earlier (including me).--Vidkun 23:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Godef, who he is . . . 

message: Why is this misspelling in the article? I can't find it in the dictionary, and if it were a real spelling, it would mean something very different as 'pan' means all.--Jcvamp 16:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a misspelling - just a Thelemic rarity. I've added a reference. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk to me) 19:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Not even a thelemic rarity. You'll find it in the OED, as well as in various old writings on magic. Fuzzypeg☻ 03:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And now that I go back to the OED I see I'm wrong. Also, it's not very common in the old texts. It appears in the French translation of John Dee's Heiroglyphic Monad (De Givry) and in Manly Palmer Hall's Secret Teachings and Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma; my searches so far don't reveal much else. I'm fairly happy to leave the article stating that it's a Thelemic innovation. Fuzzypeg☻ 05:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Crowley got the word 'pantacle' from the Golden Dawn, and the Golden Dawn got the word from the 1800s occultist author Eliphas Levi. Eliphas Levi is the person who invented the word, in his books. Those other early occurrences of the word 'pantacle(s)' in books are based upon Levi's books. Obol patina (talk) 12:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pantacle? 

message: From what I've seen, the word pentacle is used to refer to an altar tool in Witchcraft that has sometimes been used to refer to altar bowls as it was common to put a pentagram symbol in the bowl.--Jcvamp 16:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've not seen a bowl referred to as a pentacle - though it would not be unusual for a five-pointed interlaced star to decorate a bowl or chalice. But if you can find a reference to a bowl being called a pentacle, include it by all means. My own experience is just WP:OR after all! Kim Dent-Brown (Talk to me) 19:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The pentacle is mentioned in the article as a tool in Wicca. I have not come across it as a bowl. Also, I would note that Cunningham's comments about the pentacle are not representative of traditional Wicca. If quoting him, I would say "Cunningham says ...". Fuzzypeg☻ 23:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No, I'm using the term 'traditional Wicca' to mean initiatory Wicca, Wicca in the lineage of the New Forest coven, as opposed to eclectic, Ravenwolf-Grimassi "whatever takes your fancy" Wicca. Cunningham is an initiate, but has departed quite substantially from the traditional forms. Fuzzypeg☻ 02:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Secrecy makes it problematic, yes. Anyway, my exception was to his statement "The most common [symbol], and indeed the only necessary one, is the pentagram". That's his own rather ideosynchratic view, and a load of cobblers in fact. I'd prefer it if the article didn't go into details regarding the actual design of Wiccan pentacles though. If people are really keen and have a bit of nous, they should be able to figure it out from the various published books. Lets leave it at that. Fuzzypeg☻ 02:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Information

message: Reference 19 currently links to a nonexistant page. Might be worth mentioning that it's US service members or a legal battle in the US or whatever, for better context? -masa ♫ 02:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pentacle approved as religious symbol on soldiers' tombstones 

message: I reverted a series of edits by this person, but s/he has immediately undone my reversion - see this diff. I am going to revert a second time but do not intend to disobey the 3 revert rule if s/he overturns this again. I have asked Nihthasu to discuss this here. Comments from anyone? Kim Dent-Brown (Talk to me) 21:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by [[User:Nihthasu|Nihthasu]] 

message: Ok, the image on the front of the page, supposedly the "famous Pentacle of Solomon?" That's actually the Secret Seal of Solomon, two very different things. 67.60.46.57 (talk) 08:00, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Uh, that's not the PoS...

message: this used to be a great article wich went in to deatail about the fact that the pentacle is an extremely old symbol used long before wicca .
or other "magic" groups used by Christians and jews .  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.118.205.78 (talk) 02:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "used to be"? "censored"? How far back are you going? It hasn't changed much since 2008 (the farthest back I checked). I think you're looking for pentagram, which is the symbol. This article is about the physical amulet/talisman, which uses the shape of the pentagram (two very different things, which is--sigh--specifically mentioned in this article's lead). — Huntster (t @ c) 21:30, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  why has this articile been destroyed  

message: I'll go through, point by point, as I can, what I've deleted, and why.
* It is a common misconception that pentacles/pentagram are used in Wicca and other Neo-Pagan religions only to be used for summoning energies or spirits. 
Common misconception by whom, no citation likely exists - it's also weasel words.  A citation already existed in the article for the claim this is countering.
* Wiccan's don't believe in Judeo-Christian entities, so calling upon or commanding spirits aren't really in their interest.
Ask ten Wiccans, get at least a dozen opinions, ergo, not verifiable.
* Generally what the pentacle/pentagram is used for is purely as a symbol of their faith.
Not the only use, at least in commonly available information regarding BTW groups, and, as none of that is verifiable, again, not usable, also, as a symbol for the religion, dealt with on the pentagram page.
* Representing the five elements; Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit (or Soul).
Dealt with in pentagram.
* In just about every current modern form of witchcraft it is used symbolically to represent the casting of a circle, which is performed at the beginning of any magickal workings, but not physically drawn onto the ground by the caster, like it is in most every Hollywood film depicting witchcraft. Pentacle/Pentagrams are also used at the beginning of a spell, when casting a circle, for protection & banishing, cleansing, & consecration of tools to be used in any ceremonial magick.
Contradicts the information in the line that starts "generally".
* The terms pentacle and pentagram are actually interchangeable, the only difference is Greek origin vs. Latin based on the dictionary definitions and etymology. Pentagram and pentacle are synonymous, and have nothing to do with which way the points face, or whether or not they have a circle around them.
Synonymity is already dealt with in the lede of the article.  The rest is, again, opinion.
* In Wicca, many say it is a pentacle until it is physically drawn then it is called a pentagram. However this is interpreted differently by just about every Wiccan & Neo-Pagan author there is today. Sometimes it is also specific to the beliefs and practices of specific covens. Or to the solitary practitioner, as they see fit & or have learned from modern Wiccan/Pagan authors.
Opinion, many say, no specific citations.--Mptp94 (talk) 17:10, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent deletion of material from SIndoll666x