Talk:Saddam Hussein/naming

message: * All I know about Arabic naming conventions I learned here --- but:
** It seems that the last name is the surname/family name, just as in USA/Britain/etc.
** The article consistently calls him "Saddam" as if it is his surname. This seems to be his given name/first name because of the above.
* If that is true, the article should be changed to use "Hussein" (or "Mr. Hussein" "former Iraqi president Hussein," or similar) instead of "Saddam."
* The USA media have consistently called him "Saddam" (without "Hussein") but I think that most were copying the manner of US military spokesmen, who may (speciuation here) have intended to show disrespect by calling the man by his given name only. This practice dates back to press conferences during the first Gulf War. Can anyone resolve this issue? --- hajhouse
** Hussein is his family name; Saddam his given name. His sons were Uday Hussein and Kusey Hussein. You're probably right about the intention to show disrespect to the enemy.
** I've updated the note on his name at the top of the article. It seems that Saddam doesn't necessarily show disrespect; even Iraqi people under his rule used the appellation. See, for example, . Wmahan. 06:12, 2004 Apr 25 (UTC)
** Well, it seems like there is little consensus on the issue; for example  gives an opposing view. Would anyone object if I changed every reference to Saddam Hussein, à la The Washington Post? Wmahan. 04:19, 2004 Apr 29 (UTC)
** Hussein is the name of Saddam's father. The father's name just "passed along" with Saddam. The true family name is Al-Tikriti. WhisperToMe 04:22, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Surname: "Saddam" or "Hussein"?

message: * Option 1: Refer to "Saddam Hussein" on first reference and "Saddam" every time thereafter.
** I vote for option 1. But couldn't you guys have just accept what was at the talk page way back when? Look at the archives. WhisperToMe 01:16, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: POLL ON HOW WE SHOULD REFERENCE SADDAM HUSSEIN

message: He has made the following attempted compromise: . I hope other editors can accept this. Lirath Q. Pynnor
: [Ed's note: this isn't the same as the later compromise linked below - Martin]
Sorry, I accidentally overwrote the change by Gzornenplatz. Paranoid 09:13, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Gzornenplatz's Compromise

message: I really like Gzornenplatz's edit . Hopefully Lir will accept this compromise. 172 17:26, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll revert anyone who reverts Gzornenplatz's edit too.  I also agree that some people were a bit too hard on you. You definitely have made a substantial contribution to Wikipedia and should not be dismissed offhand. Glad to see that the dispute has been resolved amicably, 172 00:34, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: There's no need to argue about who did what to whom first. The edit war over the name is over and Lir agreed to a compromise (and the article is better because of that). So it's over. What will really make things easier for both of you is to put this dispute behind you. 172 01:53, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's over, good. 172, I had the impression that it had not ended yet. WhisperToMe 01:57, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, okay. Pehaps this can be taken out of arbitration? 172 02:00, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The others will decide. Ask them to do so. If others agree with you, it will. WhisperToMe 02:04, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gzornenplatz's compromise (take two) 

message: While I now understand completely why the correct term to use is indeed Saddam, I would like to register my disappointment with accusations of "Americentrism" against those who use Hussein. I have a very difficult time believing that only Americans would make the mistake of treating Hussein as a surname, as if all the world's other English speakers are born either knowing the Arabic conventions or that they never, ever make natural but incorrect assumptions.  It's just an honest mistake, people, (like using "Shelia went to school with Jake and I," rather than "Jake and me," out of an overzealousness against the word "me") so chill. --Lenoxus 22:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While it's true it's not exclusive to Americans, it does see to me that Americans tend to most commonly used incorrect names and seem to have the most problems accepting that Arabs, Malays and a number of other people don't have surnames and shouldn't be refered to by what you may think is their surname but isn't. This isn't just the people, but the media. Honest mistakes they may be, people should make an effort to otherstand that other people have different naming systems, especially when they choose to write or talk about said subjects. The problem IMHO is that a lot of people don't seem to care and some even seem to think you should follow their conventions. This can quite offensive. Even more so given that some people seem to think they know all about other people and can speak with authority about their mentality and the like, but don't even know about their naming systems. I'm not speaking about you in particular, you do seem to be willing to learn but a lot of people aren't. Nil Einne 20:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll admit the U.S. does sometimes get things wrong, but I'm not convinced that we are worse offenders than anybody else.  Our mistakes are broadcast all over the world, though, so they do tend to stand out.  For an example that cuts the other way, non-U.S. editors in the perpetual Talk:Georgia debates seem to have a hard time with the idea that the U.S. state of Georgia is not an administrative subdivision.  In this particular case, though, I think the intentions toward respect and understanding are good.  The trouble is that the single-name style "Saddam" has also been used disparagingly.  There really *are* people who believe that Saddam Hussein's family name is Hussein, but call him "Saddam" anyway as a way of being deliberately disrespectful.  (William Safire, for one, did just this).  It's a complicated subject, and not as simple as ignorance vs. enlightenment.  Personally, I tend to find the apathy of some of my compatriots and the knee-jerk anti-Americanism of some others equally disappointing.  Or funny, sometimes.  --Reuben 23:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that point about the "broacast" of American mistakes; that helped clear my head about the whole thing. --Lenoxus 02:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A word on "Americentrism"