Talk:Stockton schoolyard shooting

message: Here are my comments that were removed:
(Note, I did not include the name of the Murderer. It is common for people to seek posthumous notoriety and infamy through their action. I feel it is appropriate to deny them that.--Asams10 18:03, August 19, 2005 (UTC)) --Asams10 00:11, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is a discussion page, don't remove other's comments 

message: A critical guideline for Wikipedia is a Neutral Point of View.  There is a lot of anti-gun control POV in this article and needs removal.  Also, deleting the name of the perpetrator of this so-called Stockton Massacre or the school names is an Orwellian attempt to erase part of the historical record.
Moreover, this article is about the Stockton Massacre and not about the subsequent assault weapon bans.  You (Asams10) mention that "The Stockton Massacre was the spark for gun control. It's like talking about the Boston Tea Party without reference to the American Revolution".  Well, check out the Wikipedia article on the Boston Tea Party and you will see that it does mention the American Revolution (just as my revision mentions that "As a result, that same year, California passed the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act that bans firearms similar to the one ***** used in his crime.").  But the Boston Tea Party does not go into discussion of the American Revolution, much less discuss the justification for the Revolution.
If you must discuss the advisability of 'assault weapons' bans, then create or amend an article on that, but this article is about the Stockton Massacre. 
Please wikify and NPOV-ify this article.
Madman 16:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, it's not my article and neither is it yours.  I didn't add all the NPOV rhetoric.  The name of the Murderer is irrelevant without the balancing context of the names of the five victims of his murders.  You put the scumbag's name in after you list the five murder victims' names, and I'd be cool with it.  I'm not the revisionist, I was attempting to make relavant points.  History is important in context.  While I don't necessarily agree with the context presented and I'm not anti-gun myself, I leave it to somebody else to remove the anti-gun control rhetoric.  But I think a thorough treatment of gun control needs to be included as this event was the spark if you ask people on both sides of the issue. --Asams10 17:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Okay, delete it then.  This is really a minor footnote in the history of multiple murders.  The reason I'm unwilling to allow anybody to name the murderer is because nobody is naming the victims!  John Wilkes Boothe killed Lincoln, right?  Who has a greater place in history.  Had John Wilkes Boothe killed somebody less important, we wouldn't care, eh?  Adolph Hitler is not in the same class as either Booth or the nutcase we're talking about.  MadMan, you and I obviously disagree, however it's not Me that wrote the article.  I think any article that lists a murderer should also list his victims.  Here's what would be nice.  Put a nice bio on each of the victims.  Songs they liked, favorite foods, hopes, dreams etc.  Then print a bio of the monster that committed these crimes as a contrast.--Asams10 06:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Need NPOV

message: This article definitely does not meet the standards of Wikipedia.  The two basic problems I see are that (1) you, Asams10, continue to purge the name of the perpetrator.  This is against Wikipedia policy.  Should we also delete articles on Adolf Hitler or John Wilkes Booth or Jim Jones?  I would add the names of the victims if I had them, but am unable to locate them.  That should not prevent us from naming Patrick Purdy as the perpetrator.
Second, the discussion of the advisability and intent of the subsequent 'assault weapons' ban or a "thorough treatment of gun control" does not belong here, despite the fact that the so-called Stockton Massacre was one of the triggering factors in the ban (see my discussion of the Boston Tea Party, above).  
Since you, Asams10, seem unwilling to make any changes to the article, I will suggest that we delete the article entirely.  In particular, the name 'Stockton Massacre' is to a large extent a loaded phrase itself and is apparently not in wide use (e.g. Google shows only 248 references).
The bottom line, though, is that this article as written violates Wikipedia conventions and needs editing or outright deletion.  
Madman 05:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, delete it then.  This is really a minor footnote in the history of multiple murders.  The reason I'm unwilling to allow anybody to name the murderer is because nobody is naming the victims!  John Wilkes Boothe killed Lincoln, right?  Who has a greater place in history.  Had John Wilkes Boothe killed somebody less important, we wouldn't care, eh?  Adolph Hitler is not in the same class as either Booth or the nutcase we're talking about.  MadMan, you and I obviously disagree, however it's not Me that wrote the article.  I think any article that lists a murderer should also list his victims.  Here's what would be nice.  Put a nice bio on each of the victims.  Songs they liked, favorite foods, hopes, dreams etc.  Then print a bio of the monster that committed these crimes as a contrast.--Asams10 06:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: This article needs revision

message: Per the 3 tags on the this article, made some major edits.
* Removed some of the detailed material in the "Repercussions" (formerly "Aftermath") section about discussion of assault weapons etc. I think this getting too far outside what should be the scope of the article, but that's not the main reason. The main thing is, this is discussed in the article assault weapons in a lot more detail, and also in the article on the Federal law that was passed, and elsewhere. You don't want the same material floating around in peripheral articles like this, because then you can end up with all different versions. Better to keep it at least somewhat centralized, with links.
* There was some stuff earlier on the talk page about not putting in the name of the perpetrator? C'mon, seems pretty clear that if the event was notable the person who did it should at least be named. (Look at it this way -- why should he get off the hook? Everybody else has to bear responsibility by name for their actions.) I guess it would be OK to add the victim's names too, but I can't find them.
**I spent some time looking for the victims' names as well, to no avail.  I am wondering whether it might have something to do with their ages.   Madman 21:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to the poster who added the names of the victims.  I think overall the article is much more appropriate at this time.--Asams10 19:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Conversely, I find it absolutely revolting that the names of the victims are here. I find it hideously inappropriate that they are only mentioned because of something that was done to them which prevented them from having the chance to make an impact on the world that would merit their own page. --Khajidha (talk) 13:56, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  some cleanups 

message: I'm not a revisionist, but it's absolutely revolting that the name of the murderer is listed while the names of his victims is omitted.  I will continue to remove the name until somebody comes up with a list of the victims to print.  Funny, it's really hard to find that list.  It is as if NOBODY cares who the victims are, they just feel good about themselves reveling in the fact that evil weapons were banned and those poor HUMAN BEINGS who died were nameless martyrs?  Patrick Purdy has become a HERO of the anti-gun movement and some justice is due here. If you're trying for historical accuracy, list all of the players.--Asams10 16 January 2006 (UTC)
:Thanks to the poster who added the names of the victims.  I think overall the article is much more appropriate at this time.--Asams10 19:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Conversely, I find it absolutely revolting that the names of the victims are here. I find it hideously inappropriate that they are only mentioned because of something that was done to them which prevented them from having the chance to make an impact on the world that would merit their own page. --Khajidha (talk) 13:56, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Glorifying the Murderer

message: This article was automatically  assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 04:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: * "either ignorant of the fact that the weapon used was not an AK-47 or intentionally deceptive". This violates WP:NPOV and WP:OR. No sources are provided; it is the autor's own surmise. Therefore it is WP:OR. It ascribes an ulterior motive to Time magazine, therefore it is WP:NPOV. Ling.Nut (talk) 16:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No sources are needed.  These are the facts.  LOGIC is what dictates that the editor quoted (it was an editorial) is doing one thing or the other.  He is either ignorant of the fact or he is intentionally deceptive.  It's a fact that it's either one or the other, not a point of view.  This isn't a point of view at all nor is it original research.  The reader can choose between the two alternatives and it is completely the readers choice to make up their mind, but the alternatives are still FACTS and not opinions. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 16:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not concerned with truth. Wikipedia is concerned with verifiability. the logic is your logic; that makes it WP:OR. I'm reverting again. Ling.Nut (talk) 01:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "either ignorant of the fact that ..." 

message: The article about Patrick Purdy should be merged into this one. It seems pretty pointless to have two articles about the same topic. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree.  If anything, the Patrick Purdy article should be deleted.  Articles on homicidal/suicidal retards serve only to glorify their existance. --Winged Brick (talk) 23:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the fact aside that Wikipedia explicitly dismisses  mere offensiveness as reason to edit or delete articles, to delete the article in question would be even more pointless than to keep it, as it is needed anyway to create a redirect to the Stockton massacre article. And no matter how disgusted you are by this incident, it certainly was a  notable event and therefore deserves its own article. That the perpetrator has to be mentioned in it, and if it's only for completeness sake, should be obvious to anyone. (Lord Gøn (talk) 01:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with the merge to this article per WP:BLP1E. The perpetrator should not have an article and its existence gives no information that isn't already in this one. Trusilver 02:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: Come on! Stockton is such a large city, this shouldn't be called Stockton massacre. Instead, (name of school) massacre. cyanidethistles {Tim C} 02:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change please 

message: I did a little cleanup to the "Details" section. I was considering cleaning up the sentence about the victims (nevermind that part - my change is not necessary after all) and happened to notice that the cited reference from The Deseret News does not appear to be the correct source for the children's names and country of origin.  That article does not name the children at all.  Can someone provide input on where the information is actually from?  I don't have time to do a search at the moment, and I thought more experienced editors might know off the top of their heads. silverneko (talk) 21:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a source: Five Children Killed As Gunman Attacks A California School  BTW there is a little footnote behind the sentence mentioning the childrens' names, hinting that the source is a Washington Post article from Jan. 18, 1989. Here's an incomplete version: Rifleman Slays Five At School. Though Ran Chun should apparently be Ram Chun, according to the NYT-article. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source of Information in "Details" Section

message: It is agreed that Patrick Purdy died during this event.  Why is there a list that says, "Fatalities" that presumes to be a list of fatalities but leaves him off?  Can we come to a consensus that doesn't list the murder on the same list with his victims yet also does not ignore the fact that he was a fatality? The term "Fatality" is all-inclusive and the term "Victim" is to broad for a list of this sort.  I proposed "Victim fatalities" as a compromise, but it was reverted.  Are there any comments on this? Can we at least agree that the term "Fatalities" is imprecise and needs to be changed? --Nukes4Tots (talk) 19:55, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fatalities 

message: Please do not attempt to "move" this page by cutting its contents and pasting it into a new article (such as Cleveland Elementary School shooting (1989)). This breaks the contribution history and fragments the discussion. If there is consensus for renaming the article, either use the "move" tab, or ask for administrator assistance at WP:RM. Thanks, Hqb (talk) 08:05, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut-and-paste moves 

message: The key figure in this article about a criminal act is Patrick Purdy.  His criminal history is relevant, and well-documented and properly referenced. Please stop deleting it,  Trasel (talk) 15:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inapproprate Deletion of Purdy's Criminal History 

message: http://www.news10.net/news/featured/story.aspx?storyid=62018&catid=49
http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090118/A_NEWS/90119005/-1/A_SPECIAL0252
http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=62072
http://www.independent.com/news/2009/jul/09/michael-jackson-triumph-and-tragedy/
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-02-08/entertainment/ca-1950_1_stockton-unified-school-district  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.82.232 (talk) 19:44, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael Jackson visited the school after the shooting 

message: I will be requesting a title change for this article next week, but I wanted to start a discussion here before doing so, in an attempt to find a rough consensus before proceeding. The last page move was unilaterally made without any discussion on the talk page, and I'm not going to do that for something which is likely to be controversial.
The current article title is wrong for several reasons. It does not meet NPOV titling requirements; it is confusing because it implies that the shooting occurred in Cleveland, Ohio; the school's name is "Cleveland Elementary School", not "Cleveland School"; and it's not the only shooting to have occurred at a school named "Cleveland Elementary School" in the state of California (the hatnote makes that clear, although that article is also getting a move request to a title which focuses on the shooting, not the pepetrator.) My preference would be to move this article to Cleveland Elementary School shooting (Stockton), keeping in mind that the San Diego shooting might end up at Cleveland Elementary School shooting (San Diego), and create a disambiguation page at Cleveland Elementary School shooting, with links to both events. 
I'll wait a couple of days before submitting the move proposal, to see if anyone has another proposal. The current title, though, has to be changed.
I have started a related discussion at Talk:Brenda Ann Spencer. Horologium (talk) 18:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I support moving this page, since the current title isn't that clear, though I'd suggest Stockton school shooting  as the new destination, which would save us the disamb. (Lord Gøn (talk) 21:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title change 

message: I am just learning about this tragedy on this 25th anniversary, so I am not an expert on the subject. As an information consumer, I would like to be able to read more about the tragedy, precursors, and effects (at least in California) rather than seeing such a large section about the shooter. Just a thought for those who are working this page to consider.  Thank you. Taram (talk) 19:04, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: More about the shooting, less about the shooter

message: In the 'Reaction and aftermath' section, I removed a external reference for a Congressional bill passed in 2007 , as the bill had no bearing on this event which occurred in 1989, nor was this event directly referenced in the bill. As this reference was used to qualify the statement that Purdy had never been adjudicated as mentally ill, I removed that statement as well. If there is a different reference which affirms that statement, please feel free to add it back. But for now, I'm being bold and taking it out. --GentlemanGhost (converse) 23:30, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mentally ill 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081016063734/http://www.questia.com:80/PM.qst?a=o&d=95226102 to http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=95226102
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've just fixed up a few references with this edit (replaced broken links with live ones, added an archive link on another) but I couldn't find free versions of the San Jose Mercury News articles. The Mercury News archives are now behind a paywall, with a $2.95 fee per article. I checked on the Google News Newspaper Archive but they don't have this newspaper.
If someone knows of an alternative source for the cited facts, it would be good to replace these broken references with live links. Nffwp (talk) 13:01, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  San Jose Mercury News archives now behind a paywall 

message: On an NPR program about anti-Asian racism in the U.S. broadcast on 27 March 2022, it was said that the killer had hours earlier been ranting in a bar against Asian immigrants.  Can someone get a good source on this? 2600:6C67:1C00:300:F0F1:EEB7:74:D9DE (talk) 16:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Xenophobia/Racism 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. Uncontested RM (closed by non-admin page mover) ❯❯❯ Raydann(Talk) 18:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: 1989 Stockton schoolyard shooting →  – Remove “1989” from the title as the city being named is an adequate identifying factor. MountainDew20 (talk) 00:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography has been notified of this discussion.  ASUKITE 17:00, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Note: WikiProject California has been notified of this discussion.  ASUKITE 17:00, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Relisting comment: Relisting to generate further participation  ASUKITE 17:00, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 8 February 2024 

message: I Understand keeping Patrick Purdy (the killers) Biography on the page as he committed suicide right after but he should have a different page for the Perpetrator like for most cases Mantttt4 (talk) 15:20, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving the biography