Talk:Trireme

message: VERY nice, Josh! --Michael Winkler
Thanks!  I don't remember the construction details, rower arrangements, speeds, or precisely which countries maintained fleets (there were only a few), so anyone who knows about these is very encouraged to add to the article.  Also, I'm not quite sure how exactly the Carthaginian quinqueremes were employed and would be anxious to find out, though that would go on quinquereme rather than here.  
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My encyclopedia states that triremes were first constructed in Corinth (8th century B.C.) and their design was evolving constantly. Their use was generalized during the Peloponnesian War (end of 5th century B.C.). Before them, there were only big ships with 50 or 100 lines of rows that were too big and slow to serve effectively in battles where velocity and agility were crucial (see Salamis). After the appearance of the triremes, it was attempted the introduction of another in-between type of ship, was one with 2 lines of rows that were not proved to be equally effective. After the Peloponnesian War other ships with 5, 7, or 10 lines of rows were constructed but none of those could match the trireme. 
Is there any contradiction with your text?
Both the idea that triremes were invented in Corinth and the idea that they preceded the bireme is contradicted, but that's because the first is very doubtful and the second isn't true.  The constant evolution isn't gone into at the moment, though additions would as always be wonderful, and the larger boats are not considered inferior to the trireme because they were used for different things.
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I was under the impression that in the Battle of Salamis it was only the Athenians that had triremes and that was the whole point of their maneuvering!?
No.  The Persians simply had heavier triremes - so slower and less maneuverable - because they needed space on board to hold marines.
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The sources about the first triremes in Corinth seem to be an error. In these times all Greek warships were called triremes and the Greeks referred often to their predecessor, the pentekonters and hexacopters as triremes. The oldest depictions of triremes can be found on Assyrian reliefs and show Phoenician triremes.
The battle of salamis was a prepared naval battle by the Greeks and Persians (Phoenicians). It is unlikely that the Perian fleet was not fit for combat when they sought to have the battle. Their intelligence fooled them, that the other Greeks would betray Athen and desert. So it seemed favorable to intercept them surprisingly. This led to the state that the Persian rowers were tired after a night of rowing to ambush the Greeks and not fit for a major naval engagement. Persians and the Peloponnesian Greeks used heavier triremes than the Athenians. The advantage of a heavier trireme is, that it cant be rammed successfully under such acute angles as a light trireme. But a light Athenian trireme has superior maneuverability and acceleration to ramming speed. This advantage could not be employed if the enemy fleet used its supreme numbers successfully. In the naval tactics of this time, minor fleets formed a circle of defense. In this formation, Athenian ships are the weakest points.  They are naval supremacy fighters and their best is attack, where tactics of movement could be used.
I will write more about quinqueremes soon.
Wandalstouring 10:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: User:Pmoshs added an infobox for the reconstructed trireme Olympias. This isn't appropriate here: this is an article about triremes in general. So I made a new page Olympias (trireme) for the reconstruction and moved the infobox there. Gdr 20:40, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: To man the oars at the Battle_of_Arginusae, Athens offered freedom to slaves who volunteered. (Note this solves the military problem of slaves slowing down on purpose, hoping the opposition will free them.)
Would the generals have admitted slaves who were blind, or had weak eyesight? Note that rowing requires hearing and muscles, not eyesight...
Enquiring minds want to know!
:There are no known sources about that to me. After the much earlier battle of Marathon the freed Greek slaves had brought great social unrest to Athen, but were also the basis for manning the triremes.
:Athenians were suspicious of lefthanders at that time (not allowing them to be part of their armed forces) and Pericles reform of Athenian citizenship (both parents had to be Athenian for being Athenian) would be regarded highly nationalistic today. Not being Athenian excluded from the right to vote and take up arms in the phalanx. Military manpower was limited this way.
:So necessity led to using all ressources reasonably (political circumstances) avaiable. Before the invention of glasses and without much long range weapons there also existed a different concept of what was necessary eyesight for military purposes. For Athenian hoplites it was sufficient to recognize their opposing enemy at spearlength. 
:Sources about bad eyesight appear with the Muslims and their reliance on bows. There it was an argument for obvious disability, a hindrace to become calif.
Wandalstouring 23:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  QA for the experts 

message: In JS Morrison's  book on the trireme the building of the ship was funded by the Greek Navy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.77.23.45 (talk) 16:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  funding incorrect 

message: Interesting article but perhaps it could be improved by a short section which explained the reasons why the three tier rowing system developed in antiquity and apparently remained popular for several centuries. Some of that is touched on, indirectly, in the section covering change and reconstruction but, given the many disadvantages of the trireme layout - ( expensive construction, unweatherly hulls, poor transverse stability, awkward oar angles for top-tier rowers, requirement for highly trained oarsmen, etc.) - what were considered to be the advantages of the trireme in comparison to, say, a single tier galley with longer oars and several rowers at each oar?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Norloch (talk • contribs) 22:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: the Galley#Rowing section claims that ancient triremes with one rower per oar were inherently more efficient and hence faster than medieval galleys with multiple rowers per oar, but does not explain why that is the case. My WAG is that positioning rowers in several layers allowed triremes to be narrower, hence gaining speed at the expense of stability. 76.119.30.87 (talk) 20:17, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why have rowers on three levels? 

message: The current lead image (:File:Romtrireme.jpg) is supposed to represent a trireme but it clearly shows only one row of rowers.Ekem (talk) 13:06, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead image

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thread_title: File:FNR.Triremis.RomanEmpire.BCE31.SvenLittkowski.001.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I am in the process of completing a proposal document to create an addition to the Wikipedia article, the Trireme.  The specific sections I would like to work with will be the design and construction sections.  These two sections are closely related and the revisions I would like to add will be shared between these two sections.  The Wikipedia article on the Trireme is a well written and informative article; however it lacks important details to the construction and design of the Trireme that makes it one of the greatest marvels of ancient civilizations. My opinion is that other very important details were left out simply because there is so much to write about concerning the Trireme.  The current article briefly discusses the materials used without much detail.  My additions to the article will include an in depth discussion about the materials used to create the ship and reasons why these materials were used. I will also include a detailed layout of the oarsmen and the positioning of the oars.  I have done a good amount of research using the databases made available to me by the library of the New Jersey Institute of Technology.  The additions proposed will be supported by reliable sources that include respected historians and authors with doctorates in the fields of history, technology, and research.  
The three major sources I intend on using include the following:
Morrison, J S., J F. Coates, and N B. Rankov. The Athenian Trireme. Second ed. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2000. 127-230. 
Wallinga, H T. Ships and Sea-Power Before the Great Persian War. Leiden, Netherlands: E.J. Brill, 1993. 33-43. 
Welsh, Frank. Building the Trireme. London: Constable and Company Limited, 1988.  
Thank you,
Sam Koutsouris
Sdk5959-NJITWILL (talk) 02:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal To Make Changes 

message: I'm not particularly happy with this series of edits. Trireme research has come a long way since 1905, so I doubt that a source that old can be usefully employed. Also, in my understanding a  penteconter has 50 oars, while the 30-oar Greek galley is usually called a triaconter. I don't know if this is Tarn's error, or our editors' mistake. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:29, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You are quite right on your remarks. Furthermore, the interpolated text did not IMO fit in with the rest of the article. I have removed it, I hope to find time to dust off my copy of The Athenian Trireme some time soon, this article could use some work. Constantine   ✍  17:20, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tarn on rowing arrangements 

message: I have the impression that the article could benefit from a section on hygiene (rodents and solutions, toilet facilities if any, etc).  It is also possible that less information is available on triremes than about galeons...  —PaleoNeonate – 19:23, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hygiene