Talk:Pygmy peoples

message: Hey everyone, 
I noticed that there is a mention of a Pygmy people in Book 2 of Herodotus' History. He describes a story about a group of Nasamonians (an ancient North African Berber people) who crossed the Sahara and encountered short, dark-skinned people. I'll quote the relevant passage here:
"After journeying for many days over a wide extent of sand, they came at last to a plain where they observed trees growing; approaching them, and seeing fruit on them, they proceeded to gather it. While they were thus engaged, there came upon them some dwarfish men, under the middle height, who seized them and carried them off. The Nasamonians could not understand a word of their language, nor had they any acquaintance with the language of the Nasamonians. They were led across extensive marshes, and finally came to a town, where all the men were of the height of their conductors, and black-complexioned. A great river flowed by the town, running from west to east, and containing crocodiles."
I'd like to mention this in one of the articles about pygmies, either African Pygmies, Pygmy peoples or Pygmy (Greek mythology), but I'm not sure where and how to add it. 
Any suggestions? — Zofthej (talk) 14:42, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention in Herodotus' History 

message: The "Systematic discrimination" section of this article mentions that pygmies were displayed at a World's Fair in the United States in 1907. It has a citation (a website), but I don't think it's correct. The US World's Fair in 1907 seems to have been the Jamestown_Exposition, and there's nothing in there or elsewhere online about the exhibition of African pygmies. I think this is probably a mistaken reference to the 1904 World's Fair, where Ota Benga and other Africans were displayed in an exhibition. Ota Benga was also later displayed in the Bronx Zoo in 1906, which is also alluded to in that section. So I suggest updating the section to instead mention the very well-documented 1904 World's Fair, and have a wikilinked reference to the Ota Benga article. --2404:130:0:1000:2D8D:6456:24FC:8A10 (talk) 05:17, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Pygmies at US World's Fair in 1904, not 1907?

message: Wikiproject traditional medicine needs your help getting started. Currently there is no page for traditional Pgymy medicine, nor are medicines mentioned on the pygmy peoples page; such a page would be an excellent place to mention the alleged anti addictive properties of Ibogaine, or any of the other alleged properties of organisms and minerals traditionally used in Pygmy medicine. The projects goal is to create a pharmacopoeia that oover's the traditional medicines of all civilizations, to educate the world on the multi cultural anthropology of medicine.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by CensoredScribe (talk • contribs) 00:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikiproject Traditional Medicine

message: So are pygmies in the same league of intelligence as the rest of humanity?   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.204.142.109 (talk) 19:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tough question. Surprised it hasn't caused a racial flamewar with major trolling yet. REST OF HUMANITY, YOU ASK? Humanity doesn't exactly have the same league of intelligence across the board, fyi, although the nature vs. nurture aspect of it is nowhere near conclusive. Asians appear to have the highest IQs but a very narrow dispersion (more 100-120s), Europeans ("white", "caucasians") have a lower average but significantly wider dispersion (more 140s, but also more 60s), and blacks, native americans, and hispanics have the lowest averages AS TESTED (which doesn't really show anything whatsoever, since Africa and South America have the most dismal education systems and the worst childhood nutrition on the planet; hence, it is unclear what IQ ranges they would show with quality nutrition and decent early education).
So, you cannot really compare anyone to the 'rest of humanity', since there aren't reliable data on what intelligence said humanity has. The only two things we DO know about intelligence are that a) good nutrition and decent basic education boost average IQ a lot, b) conformist and guilt societies achieve higher averages but narrower spreads than more independent-minded individualistic societies, which get a more-Nobel-laureates-but-also-more-utter-idiots tradeoff. Aadieu (talk) 18:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Excellent answer from Aadieu; I only add that IQ-tests are also critisized as they tend to overevaluate a narrow defintion of 'intelligence' and that malnutrition can even affect the offspring generations later via epigenetics. That means that after a famine of an ancestor even the great-grandchildren could still be slightly impaired. Combine that with 'ethnogeographic' theories like those of Jared Diamond and the effects of colonialism and still on-going hidden neocolonialism and you can see that it's really quite senseless to measure 'intelligence' on such an unfair basis. Alexander Illi 196.201.51.20 (talk) 23:38, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to mention that the racist reasoning "they're not as intelligent as us, they don't deserve to be respected and treated well" is quite odious. Even if they were somehow innately (on an absolute genetical basis) less intelligent, that would make them effectively disabled and the racist additionally ableist. Civilised people don't mistreat disabled people just because they can. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:15, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Also, note that the "greater variability hypothesis" applies not to white people (who are not the same as Europeans, given that there are white people born outside Europe and BIPOC born in Europe, often having lived there for generations), but to men, hence it's really the "Greater Male Variability Hypothesis", and that one is very controversial itself. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intelligence 

message: Origins
A commonly held view [citation needed] is that African Pygmies are the direct descendents of the Late Stone Age hunter-gatherer peoples of the central African rainforest...
Here's your citation, but it doesn't exactly perform the role the original author wanted the citation to perform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Uganda
24.17.178.36 (talk) 19:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation, but not useful 

message: Someone erased the portion about African pygmies with the word "weird."  I restored it to the previous version. 140.247.249.71 (talk) 22:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Under Origins, what is "honey-related"? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Related to honey or the collecting of honey: presumably species of honey-producing bees, types of honey, places honey is found, how it is collected. kwami 15:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like Day of the Drones.  I think you clarified it now.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honey-related 

message: Should someone mention this in the article?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Platinum inc (talk • contribs) 17:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diet/Nutrition 

message: This section seems o be self contradictory: "...they are related to Africans..." and "...more closely related to the surrounding Asian population...". I think it's trying to say there's a distinction from Africans, but it's unclear, and the section is a stub anyway. Leushenko (talk) 19:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the phrasing was not clear. The article says they migrated from Africa about 60,000 years ago, making them perhaps some of the earlist emigrants from Africa to settle Asia, and hence further genetically to current Africans than other Asians - who arrived from Africa later. --Ezeu (talk) 20:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negritos 

message: The claim that Australian pygmy's are not a relict of a previous wave of migration is supported by a link which is polemic in nature.   There is legitimate scientific evidence that they may be a relict from a previous wave of migration and that debate should be acknowledged. https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/history-wars/2002/06/the-extinction-of-the-australian-pygmies/  92.237.254.166 (talk) 21:14, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Australian "Pygmies" 

message: current map has very nice detail, but you can't see the political geopgraphy or the context in terms of rest of African continent.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.52.106 (talk) 23:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would you need to? kwami (talk) 23:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Eh...to put information in context?  Seriously, that you would not even understand this, just underscores how bad the typical Wikipedian is as an editor.  72.82.52.106 (talk) 12:34, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is in context. It's under the section heading 'African pygmies'. I think any normal reader would understand from that that the map is of Africa. kwami (talk) 07:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  better map please 

message: I'm a bit concerned about the provenance of the image used on this page. It's listed as being from a 1921 cyclopedia, but is supposed to be of Professor K. G. Murphy, who wasn't born until 1908 - which would have made him at best 13 when the image was taken. He clearly isn't 13 in that image.
Professor Murphy was active in the Congo during the 1930s, and his style of dress in the image is in keeping with that period. I suspect the image has been mis-dated - in which case it may still be in copyright.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.180.52 (talk) 10:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provenance of image 

message: The article briefly mentions pygmies in Brazil and Bolivia, but says nothing more about them. Can anybody add anything? —MiguelMunoz (talk) 07:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pygmies of South America 

message: I just merged in a large block of text from an inappropriately titled article that was up for deletion, as it seemed reasonably well sourced. It would be best if an interested editor merged and distributed the text more skillfully.—Kww(talk) 15:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent merge 

message: What is the name of the Ethiopian pygmy tribe?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duozopt (talk • contribs) 14:04, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: All I can find so far is in scare quotes: "the 'Sogenannten' Ethiopian Pygmoids". Addressed in Cavalli-Sforza (1986), but I don't have access. — kwami (talk) 19:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Yes. Thus the scare quotes. — kwami (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the name of the Ethiopian pygmy tribe? 

message: Is not the definition of Pygmy peoples a little too wide?  To me all dark-skinned, short peoples don't appear to form a natural group.  I would only use the word Pygmy about those indigenous to Africa.  These look like Black Africans except being much shorter on average.  The may also have lighter, more yellowish skins.  The short, dark-skinned peoples of South-East Asia I would call Negritos.  (If it sounds too much like Negro the Malay term orang asli may be preferred.)  They may look a bit African but their head shape is usually more similar to other East Asians.  They are not quite as short as African Pygmies either.  However, the most important difference is that the ancestors of the Negritos have lived in Asia for tenmillenia.  Most likely they are direct descendants of the first anatomically modern humans in South-East Asia.  It is also worth noting that the majority of South-East Asians today mostly descend from southern China and especially Taiwan.  This island was the home of the  Proto-Austronesians.
The “Pygmies” in New Guinea, Australia and South America are even less related to the African Pygmies.  They are probably only tribes – or groups of tribes – which are shorter than their neighbours.  If so they are just unusually short Papuans, Aborigines or Native Americans.  To call these Pygmies would at best be at best misleading and at worst racist.  Pleas note that races as genetically homogeneous, sharply bordered groups does not exist.  What exist are genetically heterogeneous populations which gradually blend into each other.  Refusing to accept variation within populations is racist to me.  So is classifying a group of people as a biologically separate entity based on just a couple of traits.  Empirical evidence simply don't support such ideas.
2010-11-13  Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
:I agree. This definition is too wide. The sources that talk about Pygmy people refer to African groups. --Maulucioni (talk) 15:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The word "pygmy" does not have an inherent, obvious or god-given definition. In ethnology, "pygmy peoples" is a catch-all term that applies to all sorts of short-statured ethnic groups in the world. To refer specifically to the pygmies of Africa, use the term African Pygmies. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too wide a definition? 

message: First of all I'ld throw out the picture of "Professor K. G. Murphy" putting pressure on these pygmies, as they obviously don't like it (body language).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.201.51.20 (talk) 22:31, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Olde Photographe: "European Explorer" hugging and showing off the pygmies 

message: What are the religious beliefs of Pygmies?--Splashen (talk) 05:03, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Baka religion is animist, they worship a forest spirit known as Jengi. (See also  ) --Maulucioni (talk) 15:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Note that some pygmy tribes are claimed to (gasp) have not had any religious beliefs at all. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 07:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pygmy Religion 

message: Hello,
I saw an article today in the journal, Science Daily, which is entitled, "Ancestors of African Pygmies and Neighboring Farmers Separated Around 60,000 Years Ago."  The article can be found here:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090410075110.htm.  I just thought that the information contained in the article might be a nice addition to your page and certainly a good reference source.  
Thank you!
70.134.190.49 (talk) 05:30, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Jnorton7558 (talk) 03:35, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: the OP was very clear what information he was offering - not requesting a change per se HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:58, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request  20 July 2011 

message: The external link: Undated footage of Pygmy tribe constructing a vine bridge is a clip from African Pigmy Thrills (Castle Films):  -- which includes this in the description: Footage from this subject is available for licensing from www.travelfilmarchive.com -- An ad for the original is ostensibly dated: Castle Films African Pygmy Thrills Movie (1942).  Note however, the '42 ad includes "...FAMOUS CASTLE ADVENTURE MOVIES YOU CAN OWN!", implying ("famous") that it had been previously released (other sources date it as c.1930). Perhaps a more accurate attribution is in order?  Note also that the original title is African Pigmy [sic] Thrills!  The following is probably a better source: http://www.archive.org/details/african_pygmy_thrills ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 22:27, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links (update needed?) Reference to original film. 

message: OK, so the whole article needs re-working and citations added and stuff. Particularly the "Systematic discrimination" needs a lot of work. The website at http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/pygmy.htm does not appear to be a wonderful source, lacking in-line references. Yet it is used for three or four references. 
So, my main request is to add one of those "please help fix this article up" templates at the top of the page. 
41.204.74.75 (talk) 18:06, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: The  template is probably what you're referring to. However, that template is usually most productively used when there's ongoing discussion about improvements to the article. Drive-by tagging is usually not too helpful to get things cleaned up. If you have specific ideas for how the article can be improved, feel free to re-enable the requested edit template and list them! Thanks!   — Jess· Δ♥ 01:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 11 April 2012 

message: I have made one small effort (2 details, one link) to improve the former but the latter needs even more help from an editor working on this article.
G. Robert Shiplett 20:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cameroon and demographics of Cameroon articles 

message: see Africa/Relationship with other Africans/Slavery, it refers to Pygmies as 2% of the DRCs population and also a 'major ethnic group.'  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.2.199.74 (talk) 00:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: They're culturally important, though not numerically so. Better wording is needed. — kwami (talk) 01:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major ethic groups? 

message: because in a section on systematic discrimination (that covers how they were abducted and put in zoos, no less!), "habitat" implies animal too strongly for comfort. Angel (talk) 07:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: . Rivertorch (talk) 15:16, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Request:  change "forest habitat" to forest homeland.  

message: Simple grammar change: 
:2nd sentence: "Other anthropologists do not agree to group peoples based on stature as height is neither an accurate reflection of culture nor genetics."
:Change to: "Other anthropologists do not agree that to group peoples based on physical stature is an accurate reflection of culture or genetics" 
:OR "Other anthropologists have expressed that to group peoples based on physical stature is neither an accurate reflection of culture nor genetics
Bungeloe (talk) 22:41, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2014 

message: For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. As this will almost certainly result in the removal of the "Genetic evidence for origins" section from this article, I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. --Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics for ethnic groups RfC 

message: the article makes clear that large percentages have been killed off, but is there also some percentage that have taller offspring now that they are living in cities and eating more varied diets?
if the condition is at root a vitamin D deficiency or somesuch, wouldn't they grow to "standard" height in 2-3 generations?
other races seem to be growing an inch or two per generation; is there some comparable number -- "5-6 inches", say -- for modern pygmies?  209.172.23.132 (talk) 04:10, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: yeah, article doesn't give ONE PEEP about whether it's a "temporary" or "permanent" condition.  how much is nature (DNA of pygmy forebears) vs how much is nuture (environment during maturation for the lone indiv in question)?  209.172.23.136 (talk) 05:32, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  physical change? 

message: The article refers to someone named "Seshardi". It should be "Seshadri".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grammar police and thieves (talk • contribs) 01:52, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd just fix it, but the AU paper cited in the reference gives two different spellings, "Seshadri" and "Sheshadri". It looks as if it is "-adri", at any rate, but with one 'h' or two? Googling is no help. (Apparently both spellings are valid, and it's hard to tell what person is the one we're after.) Perhaps the relevant individual will see this someday and contact OTRS. In the meantime, I'm loath to leave it as is but am reluctant to change it to something that may also be wrong. RivertorchFIREWATER 06:44, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling

message: Hi all,
I have declined a request that this page be moved to Pygmy. My rationale for this was simply that had not been discussed on the article talk page, and so did not meet the "it is holding up a page move that is non-controversial or consensual, for instance reversing a redirect, or removing a disambiguation page that only points to a single link" WP:G6 criterion.
Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 08:29, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I would not favour a move to Pygmy given the pejorative connotations of that term ("used figuratively to denote intellectual inferiority" according to the Concise Oxford). Awien (talk) 17:22, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move of this article to [[Pygmy]] declined - please discuss 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Pygmy peoples. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130724065848/http://andaman.org/BOOK/chapter35/text35.htm to http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter35/text35.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100609193744/http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/fac/hewlett/cultdiv.html to http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/fac/hewlett/cultdiv.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/pygmy.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081029071336/http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/CB_2002_p1-18.pdf to http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/CB_2002_p1-18.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081202153046/http://www.calacademy.org/science_now/archive/where_in_the_world/ckleiger_myanmar.php to http://www.calacademy.org/science_now/archive/where_in_the_world/ckleiger_myanmar.php
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090212143913/http://v2.linguistlist.org/~lapolla/rda/MWphotos.html to http://v2.linguistlist.org/~lapolla/rda/MWphotos.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080726175601/http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/orig/tindale/HDMS/tindaletribes/tjapukai.htm to http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/orig/tindale/hdms/tindaletribes/tjapukai.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:07, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Add a List of Famous Pygmy People. Jidanni (talk) 16:47, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: If you know of notable ones (i.e., those who have Wikipedia articles), why not add them yourself? RivertorchFIREWATER 03:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add a List of Famous Pygmy People 

message: Metropolising (talk) 11:19, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 03:51, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2023