Talk:Helen of Troy

message: I suggest the entry for this Helen be entitled Helen of Troy, which is how she is most commonly known. user:Deb
:I agree. Ruakh 17:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Might be premature because we don't have enough other entries under "helen" to warrant a disambiguation page. Ellsworth 22:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  How is that a justification for not titling the article with the name by which nearly all readers will look for it and all writers will link to it? Regardless, there seem to be enough other Helens for disambiguation. --Tysto 05:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree, should be Helen of Troy.  --JW1805 (Talk) 05:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not entierly sure about this. In Classical literature, she is simply referred to as "Helen" and "Helen of Troy" is a common misnomer because she wasn't actually from Troy. Helen of Troy redirects here. That should be enough for readers who are searching for this article. The only thing that makes particular sense here would be a retitled to Helen (Greek mythology). CaveatLector  Talk Contrib 17:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The title should reflect how she is commonly known, not how she was referred to in ancient literature. If I see an article titled 'Helen' I won't immediately know who it's about.81.65.84.133 (talk) 18:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that "Helen" should be a disambiguation. The article should be renamed per the manual of style. --Pstanton (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: hmmmm.... 103.5.74.178 (talk) 02:30, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Helen v. Helen of Troy

message: Hi, I remembered something from Robert Graves which might be worth noting as a possible origin of the helen myth (or at least her association with Troy). Graves suggested that 'suitors of Helen' were really 'those who were mindful of Hellespont', and that the oath which the Greek kings took was to support the rights of any member to navigate the Hellespont, despite the Trojans and their Asiatic allies.  Graves goes on to say that "the Helen story comes, in fact, from the Ugarit epic Keret, in which Keret's lawful wife Huray is abducted to Udm". I can't vouch for its accuracy, but Graves is a pretty robust source so I thinks it's worth weaving in.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.220.108 (talk) 20:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of the Helen myth II

message: What was Helen in Ancient Greek? 'Elen? 'Elene? 'Elena?
It was probably something like Helenee in Attic, and diferently in othere dialectsIkokki 16:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancient Greek pronuciation 

message: I have added a list of suitors, just like there is one at Penelope. I hope there is no objectionIkokki 16:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Helen's suitors 

message: Is anyone sure about the (previous) etymology? Of her name supposedly being derived from the root *sel-. As you can see, the American Heritage Dictionary clearly says otherwise. Lemegeton 17:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The American Heritage Dictionary isn't a great source for Greek etymology. However, it is superior to no source at all, which is what the *sel- etymology has right now. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: still better than this thinkbabynames.com nonsense. Why do they bother to give etymologies if they cannot be bothered to look them up (sigh). dab (𒁳) 12:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Given that there are inscriptions in the Laconian dialect showing the pronunciation starting /wel-/, an etymology from *sel- is impossible. Johundhar (talk) 05:43, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

text: I agree. The Sanskrit explanation is just absolutely silly because it makes the assumption that a high profile abduction in the Greek civilization couldn't possibly exist without an abduction in the Indus civilization or an abduction couldn't possibly happen unless one occurred in Proto-Indo European culture. I seriously doubt abduction was a rare occurrence especially when royalty tend to feel entitled to whatever they desire. 108.35.36.227 (talk) 19:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

text: This comment is just absolutely silly :). Really, no such 'assumption' is made. It is just standard comparative practice to look not only at similar linguistic structures, but at similar cultural contexts in which they occur to determine whether they may be cognates. Agree or disagree, but the methodology is by no means 'silly.'Johundhar (talk) 03:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: I find the "timeline" section a bit odd. Surely we don't want to give the impression that we can give calendar dates for the life of a mythological figure. In addition, the article given as a reference for the dates, Mythical chronology of Greece, looks like a huge pile of original research to me. I'd like to take the "timeline" section out. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the timeline section. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you for removing the "timeline", Akhilleus. I seem to remember that one of history's most over-rated figures spent a lot of time puzzling these detailed dates into his "universal history"— when he wasn't praising virginity or scribbling invective. Material to give the simple hallucinations. --Wetman 13:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: the "timeline" section

message: In the version I learned of this myth, Menelaus spares the life of Helen at the request of Odysseus, to whom he owed a debt. I'll dig out my texts and see if I can verify it. 68.39.127.114 02:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sparing the life of Helen

message: There been lots of vandalism recently...
Ustimika 19:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: There are many sections and statements that have no citations at all. Can someone please cite their information? Thanks. 64.85.225.83 06:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: Helen created a lot of stereotypes about women which were fought against by feminists later on.  Also, writers such as Yeats used her image to describe women who urge men to go to war, a common theme used by writers when working with the Helen image.  This might be good for a future Helen expansion. Wrad 03:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  expansion ideas 

message: Does 
:Helen is the daughter of Zeus and Leda. Leda was loved by Zeus, who raped her in the guise of a swan. As a swan, Zeus fell into her arms for protection from a pursuing eagle. 
mean 
: Helen is the daughter of Zeus and Leda. Leda was loved by Zeus, who raped her in the guise of a swan. As a swan, Zeus had fallen into her arms for protection from a pursuing eagle.
If so, I request permission to change it. --69.150.163.1 15:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambigouous 

message: Wasn't it discovered that Helen of Sparta was actually a real woman?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawk08210 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Real

message: Isn't there an older reference to Helen having the face that launched a thousand ships? In Orestes, Euripides jokes that her face launched a thousand funerals. Well before Christopher Marlowe. Wkerney (talk) 10:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know which passage of the Orestes says this? Unless you've read it in Greek, you're reading a translation, which may be departing from the original to make an allusion to Marlowe. I've never seen the phrase credited to anyone but Marlowe. --Akhilleus (talk) 12:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The Face that Launched a Thousand Ships

message: I apologize if I'm doing this wrong, but the page is protected so I cannot fix them myself. Hopefully someone else can.  In the Helen article, under the <B>Cult</b> section, there are two typos for worship(ped).  They are: <I>Isocrates writes that at Therapne Helen and Menelaus were <B>worhipped</b> as gods</i> and Clader argues that, if indeed Helen was worhiped as a goddess.
That is all. 66.215.240.29 (talk) 00:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Good spot. -Phil5329 (talk) 01:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Small Typoes

message: Currently reads: "Following Tyndareus' death, Menelaus became king of Sparta because the only male heirs, Castor and Pollux, had died and ascended to Olympus."
This suggests patrilineal rulership, whereas it's generally assumed (see Hughes, and Wikipedia entry on matrilineage, as well as The Odyssey for the quest for Penelope's hand in marriage) that rulership was passed down the queen's side. It's also at variance with The Illiad, where Helen is unaware that Castor and Pollux have been killed before the war at Troy - she looks for them in the ranks of the Greek army but can't find them - which means she must have been queen of Sparta before Castor and Pollux's deaths. I would suggest that Menelaus only became king of Sparta by virtue of Helen ascending to the throne after Leda's death/abdication? Euripedes' Orestes also suggests that Tyndareus was alive at the time of Menelaus' return to Mycenae. See also the afterword on Tyndareus' Wikipedia entry. 
Suggest either deleting it or replacing it with "After their marriage, Helen and Menelaus assumed the thrones of Sparta. It is unknown whether this was because of Leda's death or abdication from the throne."
User:RobBuckley
 Done Welcome and thanks for the contribution. The question of matrilineage or patrilineage seems tangential to that section, so I replaced the existing text with the simple fact captured in your first sentence. Regards, Celestra (talk) 20:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is definitely inaccurate and OR to say that "After their marriage, Helen and Menelaus assumed the thrones of Sparta". After their marriage Menelaus had the right to succeed Tyndareus, but this does not mean that he succeeded him immediately after their marriage. For more, on this succession, and the modern theories see Finkelberg, 68–69. Hughes' analysis is not so convincing, neither so scientific.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Readers in the US will probably have better luck accessing Finkelberg at . Also, it's probably a good idea to remember that Helen and Menelaos are mythical characters, not historical figures, so the article does not need to get wrapped up in minutiae. Simply report that, according to the myths, Helen and Menelaos became rulers of Sparta after Tyndareos abdicated. --Akhilleus (talk) 12:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but it is interesting, because modern historians and researchers try to find out the rules of succession in pre-historic Greece, studying and analyzing the myths of the Heroic Era. Other books say that Menelaus succeeded Tyndareus after the Dioscuri were immortalized . To me there is no consensus that in pre-historic Sparta the line of succession was based on matrilineage. Of course, my own research may be flawed, and I am open to other interpretations. But what Hughes says can't be the (only) criterion on this issue.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as the specific sentence is concerned, I definitely agree with Akhilleus' neutral proposal. This is after all what we only know from sure based on the mythological sources. Nothing else is sure; of course, if the Dioscuri were alive during the succession, this may be a strong argument in favor matrilineage. In any case, I think that the article should somehow deal with this issue, maybe in a footnote. Helen is a mythological person, but her myth touches various interesting themes and unanswered questions of history and pre-history.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I unfortunately I don't have access to this book, which seems to deal in detail with Tyndareus' succession. I might think about ordering it.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Marriage to Menelaus

message: One of the first paragraphs is mixing *wel- and *sel- together relating Saranyu with Helene. WTF?!? Please change it. It's retarded and makes it obvious that you editors are more concerned with typing than reading.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.77.214.48 (talk) 09:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: He's only maligning retards, like people who write gibberish like 'arguably unneccesarily [sic]'. Your comment belongs on his talk page, not here.81.65.84.133 (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  IE *wel- doesn't have anything to do with *sel- 

message: 1. The introduction of this article says "was the daughter of Zeus and Leda (or Nemesis), daughter of King Tyndareus". This is contradictory.
The "Birth" section says "although her putative father was Tyndareus, she was actually Zeus' daughter".
I am confused now. Who is the father of Helen? I am thinking it's Zeus. If this is the case, the sentence in the introduction is wrong and should be fixed.
2. "Homer narrates that during a brief stop-over in the small island of Kranai, where, according to Iliad, the two lovers consummated their passion."
This sentence needs to be fixed.
3. "Nicostratus was a son of Menelaus by his concubine Pieris, an Aetolian slave. Megapenthes was a son of Menelaus by his concubine Tereis, no further origin."
I don't understand the relevance of the above information. I believe it should not even be part of the "Fate" section. All this is about Menelaus and not about Helen.
ICE77 (talk) 06:48, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions and comments 

message: Some old page history that used to be at the title "Helen of Troy" can now be found at Talk:Helen of Troy/Old history. Graham87 11:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old page history 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Helen of Troy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150428073329/http://asimovhumanists.org/AboutIsaacAssimov2.htm to http://asimovhumanists.org/AboutIsaacAssimov2.htm
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Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:24, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The ancient reception of the figure of Helen is certainly no less important than the modern reception. Gorgias' Encomium of Helen springs to mind, but there is no mention in this article. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:54, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Encomium of Helen 

message: Does he? To my knowledge, within the fragment in question there is nothing whatsoever about the identity of those who were about to stone Helen. 93.73.63.191 (talk) 21:22, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Stesichorus narrates that both Greeks and Trojans gathered to stone her to death" 

message: The phrase 'Helen of Troy' at the very start is supported by three references. One is a 190 year old complete works of Lord Byron and another links to a wiki article about a 1956 film. Should there be any references there? Does anybody, anywhere, dispute that Helen of Troy means Helen of Troy? If they are to be moved, where should they go? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources