Talk:Thirty-Six Stratagems

message: Without some kind of a reference, this talk of Harro von Senger as the first to publish the 36 Stratagems in the West sounds extremely spurious.  They were published in English in a "pop" business-friendly format by the Sunzi Craze in the late 1980s.  A lot of the rest of this article seems to rely on dubious arguments from German, as well...  I'm adding citation requests and will probably revisit this in a month with an axe.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by JSoules (talk • contribs) 06:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Senger First??

message: '36 Strategies'? It's clearly stated on the page that it should be 'Strategems'...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.216.161 (talk) 00:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Title

message: Is there a simplified version of each Chinese character for the 36 strategies? If not would it be okay if I added them in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CLDragon (talk • contribs) 
:Sure, go ahead. --maru   (talk)  contribs 23:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese characters 

message: AFAIK, tian is also some ancient naming for Emperor.
Theres also some matching story then, shortend:
1st try to invade korea with a fleet went bad because of the weather, emperor went sea-sick.
Generals want try a 2nd attempt, but emperor denies, because of his sea-sickness the 1st time.
Generals build a 'swimming city', composed of dozens of ships tied together, and invite the emperor...
Emperor arrives, generals let the 'city' depart to korea... emperor agrees then to invade...
However, I don't know, how far this story is true, but I read it in one translation of the san xi liu ji.
* The story above is repeated in "The Thirty-Six Strategies of Ancient China" by Stefan H. Verstappen(China Books, 1999).  He says the Emperor in question was Tai Zong of the Tang Dynasty.  Amusingly, the 'floating city' was supposedly passed off as a dinner party at a large estate. The Emperor found himself in Korea in the morning none the wiser.
: "Decieve the Emperor to Cross the Ocean" is not significantly clearer then "Decieve the Sky to Cross the Ocean", and needs the story to make sense.  The story itself is only a subtle allusion to the actual strategy, which is to give the appearance of innocence to trick the enemy into dropping his guard. Of course, one could also infer the lesson that even your allies may need to be manipulated to achieve victory.
: Unlike the other stories in Verstappen's book, the story of the Floating City does not explicitly cite sources, making it less history and, perhaps, more folklore.  If a possibly apocryphal story inspires an axiom like "Decieve the Emperor...", does it deserve entry as a source material?
: --MikeKozar 20:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strategie #1 tian1 translation 

message: I will be adopting this page of sorts and try to edit it into better form. Current plan is to reformat the page, give the origin of each proverb, and an explaination on how the proverb applies to military tactics. Vyn 00:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary of Edits and Cleanup 

message: I started removing some of the inaccuracies in it and ended up deleting the entire section since there is nothing left.  There is no common Chinese saying that there are only 36 strategies under the sky.  (Note that there is no direct quote in Chinese.)  The book attributed to Sun Tzu is not a book of tactics only; wheras the thirty-six strategies themselves are more like tactics or strategems.  And the fact that there are some similarities between the thrity-six stratgies and Western books on War is hardly surprising or worth mentioning.
-- Takto 15:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of "Legacy"  Section 

message: Is there an explanation for the presence of "The enemy" in this translation/explanation?  As I encountered it, this was the strategy of pulling away the ladder yourself after scaling to the roof with your own forces, i.e. burning your ships to force your troops to fight to the death and not think of escape.  And I don't see where "the enemy" comes in in the original stratagem... JSoules (talk) 06:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  #28 

message: Sometimes I get doubts that the main author really understands the strategems.
#First, it is "Strategem", not "strategy". A strategy is a long-term plan. It would be very bad when your long-term scheme were to run away (strategem no. 36). "Strategem" means ruse, guile, cunning, the word "ji" can also mean "plan".
# Some examples for the strategems were very good and archetypal indeed - unfortunately, for absolutely different strategems than originally posted (cf. my edits).
# The original author seems to have misunderstood the list because of the misnomer "strategy" instead of "strategem" to be an exclusively military treatise. This is wrong; the "36 strategems" are often, in Europe, compared with Machiavelli's Principe. Instead of the Suns (Sun Wu and Sun Bin), they were not intended for the military, but a broader political spectrum.
I corrected some faults, but do not have the time to rework the article entirely. Apart from such fundamental a rework possibly raising resistance by other contributors.
Kto288: Your interpretation of "Creating something from nothing" is entirely correct. Vyn's definition is more correct for Number 20, "Trouble the water to catch the fish".
: Source please? JSoules (talk) 06:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: A half a brick isn't "bait" for anything I know about. How about this... By tossing the brick, they must drop the jade to catch the brick.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshNarins (talk • contribs) 21:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number 17 

message: That guy really exists. He is a leading sinologist. Just give a quick search on google on the name Harro von Senger. I already found this. http://word.world-citizenship.org/wp-archive/2553 If someone could kindly do the citation, since I have no clue on how to do it. 114.76.18.50 (talk) 14:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Harro von Senger

message: As useful as the modern, western examples are, they are all unencyclopedic and original research.　They should be removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.173.80.223 (talk) 18:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed all the unreferenced examples. Once again, if the editors want those examples back, they must provide reliable citations and references to support them. Strictly no OR. _LDS (talk) 04:40, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: The example of 15 is false. The Normans won due to the birth of a new kind of fighter know as knights (the English used to ride horses towards the battlefield and then tied them besdie a tree, but the Normans were seen charging on horseback and it said to have given the English quite a shock).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.171.232.83 (talk) 22:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number 15 

message: I don't think the pinyin diacritics help anyone; can I delete them? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 07:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, they indicate tones.--90.179.235.249 (talk) 01:22, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

text: Yes, please keep them. --50.76.44.138 (talk) 01:34, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the diacritics? 

message: The examples listed on the page are not Original Research. They are used in the books listed in the sources section.
174.22.13.242 (talk) 18:30, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been answered multiple times by multiple posters. You should check the talk pages of previous numbers of your variable IPs. To repeat, any examples given in the article need to be specifically cited a reliable source. You can't just mention there's a bibliography. Edward321 (talk) 23:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: The following books contain the examples that keep getting removed from the page.
*"The Thirty-six Strategies Of Ancient China" by Stefan H. Verstappen
*"The 36 Secret Strategies of the Martial Arts: The Classic Chinese Guide for Success in War, Business and Life" by Hiroshi Moriya, William Scott Wilson
*"The 33 Strategies of War" by Robert Greene
174.22.13.162 (talk) 16:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: There should be a section in the "Honey Trap" strategy about the Four Beauties. They are an example of the seduction strategy.
174.22.9.96 (talk) 19:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's an opinion. More precisely, it is your opinion. Have you got any reasons that might persuade others to agree with your opinion? Edward321 (talk) 00:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four Beauties 

message: Is this something written in the 20th century, or maybe 800 BC, or what?  Why should one have to read beyond the first paragraph, or even the first sentence, and still wonder about that? !!!!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:445:4001:4514:5927:CBE3:22AF:8A6C (talk) 03:23, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  When was this written? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I attempted to neutralise the tone of the content in "Content" and removed redundant content. Unfortunately, the essay is written to be instructional, and I had to leave the instructional voice in to maintain some of the original context. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  04:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyeditor passing by