Talk:Race and intelligence/Archive 6

message: Sam Spade  04:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is about race and intelligence. I see nothing about intelligence in the picture. Ultramarine 05:01, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, remove it if you want. What differenct races look like has nothing to with what this article is about. Ultramarine 05:05, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

text: What is the connection between how FBI uses races in pictures and racial differences in IQ? ~~
The photo represents the races discussed. As with any image on any article, it is representing the subject, in this case race. The picture of the brain represents intellegence. There is no reason not to provide the reader with useful images. Sam Spade  05:12, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

text: This article is about the connection between race and intelligence. There is no connection in either of the pictures, so both can be rewmoved. Why have you described how FBI uses races in pictures? It is totally irrelevant to the article. Ultramarine 05:14, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

text: If you had read the article, you should have seen that the contested definition of race is described in the first paragraphs and it is explained that this is discussed in other articles. As should this picture. Give some better explanation or I will remove it or both of the pictures. Ultramarine 05:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

text: So you cannot give a reason for keeping the picture? Or explain why how FBI uses pictures should be mentioned. Ultramarine 05:36, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why did you remove this image? 

message: I know it may be a sensitive question, but i would like to get an answer, as objective as possible, for the question: "what is the average iq of the American Jews and standard deviation?" Amirpedia 05:38, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article discusses "a pattern of decreasing brain size proceeding from East Asians, Europeans, and Africans."  Anybody know if US Jews, with their higher average IQ, possess a different endocranial volume than Europeans?--Nectarflowed T 08:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews in USA

message: I have several problems with this article.  I believe that this article is a racist piece of literature posing as an informative encyclopedia article. It is adorned with references to various scholars to legitimize the propaganda and a few weak counter-arguments to help create the illusion of a well-balanced article. One of the most obvious problems with this article is the use of the term "race."  Quite frankly, it seems that either the author does not know the difference between race and ethnicity or has never pondered it.  His/her ignorance is exhibited when he/she lists  "hispanic" as a racial category and then goes on to discuss Asians, whites and blacks. Would the author be surprised to know that this particular category contains whites, Asians, blacks, Native Americans and mixtures thereof? Perhaps he/she could rename the article "Ethnicity and Intelligence."  As a member of a group possessing such a high intelligence quota, he/she should be much more detail-oriented, precise and accurate.  Additionally, he/she should be careful about referencing books (e.g. The Bell Curve) that are authored by people who do not possess expertise in the field about which they write.
:A great deal of the problem with these articles is that the vocabulary used prejudges the issue under discussion. In the talk page I generally use square brackets whenever I use the word "race" because I think it is a word without an operational definition, a word with about as many definitions as there are people using it, etc. The word "intelligence" is at least as bad. Probably what articles should focus on is the social phenomenon that makes people dead set on maintaing their opinions about what they call "race" and what they call "intelligence."
:The only thing that seems to me to give any hope of improving these articles are citations to good studies -- studies where you know clearly how you are categorizing individuals by [race], how you are measuring [intelligence], and how you are avoiding the influence of contingencies like the fact that in your experience almost everybody hates you and gives you a hard time on account of your skin color. P0M 04:43, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this really information? 

message: ...But I don't know how to do that. --DAD 02:26, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Cut and paste to archive 5, see the very top for the new archive. P0M 06:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page needs archiving badly 

message: If some assertions in the article accurately represent authorities in this field they merit critical comment.
:The three-way difference in average IQ can be measured in very young children, before significant cultural forces can take effect. For example, a 1 standard deviation gap is observed in Black and White 3-year olds matched for gender, birth order, and maternal education (Peoples, Fagan, & Drotar, 1995). Lynn (1996) found that by age 6 the average IQ of East Asian children is 107, 103 for White children and 89 for Black children
In the last couple of decades it has become abundantly clear that most of the language learning that humans do occurs during the first 3 years of life. After that, one is more-or-less on a plateau. Infants are hungry sponges, and what gets absorbed at that point seems to form the foundation for all future learning. It's possible to make further gains, but the older one gets the more early deficiencies tend to get in one's way. Contrary to what the paragraph asserts, the earlier in life one is the more important are cultural effects.  P0M 02:02, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange lack awareness -- whose? 

message: The following passage refers to "r" and "k" without any indication of what they mean. Even if they had been mentioned earlier in the article they would need a word or two each to remind people of what they are.
:In his 1995 work Race, Evolution, and Behavior, J. Philippe Rushton argued that racial differences in IQ, as well as a number of other racial differences, could be explained by different degrees of evolution to either r or k selected breeding patterns. 
P0M 02:14, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jargon 

message: The second paragraph in a chart that is supposed to pertain to IQ ranges in the US says:
:Whether the IQ scores from the few tests done in developing nations....
I think that paragraph just doesn't belong where it has been placed, but if it does belong there then the chart would seem to include data on non-US populations in describing the US population. P0M 02:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intrusion of irrelevant content into the chart 

message: Some of the content in this article question why Chinese and/or other Asian immigrants to the US should test so high if minority status and/or low economic status disadvantages people. This kind of assertion is another point where I have to question whether it is the authors of this article or the authors of the scientific studies being reported who have not informed themselves fully. I don't believe that we can have a good article unless these issues are sorted out properly.  Low economic status is indeed a hindrance to gaining a university education or even, sometimes, to making it all the way through high school. But some immigrants come to the US with a culturally acquired value that tells them that education and hard work are the keys to a good life.  Chinese people, for instance, may arrive completely destitute and knowing no English, but that does not mean that they are lacking in intelligence, in formal education, or in street smarts.  Very frequently people with these values will willingly sacrifice their comfort and risk their health for the sake of the success of their children.  P0M 02:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to add the article. Ultramarine 16:29, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contrasts in cultural backgrounds 

message: "Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence" The Economist NYT pre-print PDF --Rikurzhen 05:16, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
:Interesting study. Note that the title in the Economist is wrong, the study does not argue that persecution has caused higher intelligence, Romani do not have high IQ scores.
:On a related subject. This study shows an interesting decline in share of Nobel prizes awarded to Europe and similar increase in the share of Nobel prizes awarded to the U.S. that takes place at the time of the Nazi persecutions during the 30s and the Holocaust during the 40s . Should we include it? Ultramarine 18:26, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting indeed. "NHoAI" also states that non-Ashkenazi Jews considered as a group have a roughly average level of intelligence; the IQ difference (which can be up to 20 points) only applies to Ashkenazi Jews, considered as a group, and contains a good set of references. It also lists a number of genetic diseases which are correlated with high IQ which are common in Ashkenazim. However, expect this particular paper to result in the a shitstorm of claims and counter-claims in this article; it will make a lot of White racists feel very uncomfortable. -- Karada 18:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, did you see the paper that suggests that clinical depressives have a mean IQ about 6 points above average? -- Karada 18:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And yet another interesting observation. "In market economies, per capita GDP is directly proportional to the population fraction with verbal IQ equal to or greater than 106." . The Ashkenazi Jews higher IQ is most pronounced in verbal IQ... Ultramarine 18:51, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence" 

message: I'm inclined to submit this article for "peer review" so that it can go up for featured article status. I had thought that by not fussing with such things it would avoid the kind of taboo-response we've seen with the VfD, but the many positive comments in the VfD thread has changed my mind. Any reason not to? --Rikurzhen 20:06, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
:I would support it when the Vfd is over. I am doubtful that it would pass the stable criteria. Ultramarine 06:58, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  submitting for peer-review 

message: Nice to see a history section added. Maybe it's a good idea to also mention the debate's manifestation in the popular science literature, by pointing to Mismeasure of Man and Bell Curve. (This needs some refactoring of the rest of the article.) Gould has a lot more about the early history of this. Arbor 19:46, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section 

message: This article was voted on to see if it should be deleted. The consensus was a clear one to KEEP. The results of this debate can be seen at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Race and intelligence. DJ Clayworth 21:40, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote for Deletion