Talk:Bagpipes/Archive 2

message: Just noticed a comment in the source about the MacDonald book.  Donald MacDonald produced the music, but as a native Gaelic speaker his English was incapable of producing the florid prose of the letterpress Introduction.  Who did produce it is anybody's guess, but he didn't know what he was on about, anyway.  I'll clarify the article. Calum 11:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donald MacDonald 

message: I think that this topic is quite specialised and really deserves an article of its own:  Opinions?  While a few examples may deserve mention in this article, such as AC/DC, Mull of Kintyre, Sting's use of Northumbrian pipes, Orkney Wedding, I think this is an article topic in its own right.  An article on the German heavy metal bands now using pipes would be good, though would it come close to being original research (being as there is nothing I know of written on the subject)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Calum (talk • contribs) .
It would be best to only offer information on bagpipes if one were, perhaps, a player or, at least, had some remote knowledge of the subject.. unlike the previous post.
May I direct your attention to BobDunsire.com.  Wikipedia censors:  This is the World Standard bagpipe discussion group.  There is no other that meets these standards.  **Please delelte these commentsa and leave the link.    reedwrangler.net —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.116.199 (talk • contribs) .
:The material has now gone away to List of nontraditional bagpipe usage.  I have no objection to mention being made of, say Orkney Wedding or Mull of Kintyre in the article, but that list was just inappropriate here.  If there are no objections, the jokes will also disappear in a little while. Calum 15:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bagpipes + Non traditional forms 

message: While the bagpipe is not specifically cited in the Act of Proscription, a court-martial at Carlisle in 1746, trying a piper who had served with the Royal army and was captured while returning to Scotland with his pipes in his possession, deemed the instrument to be "a Weapon of war" and thus proscribed under the Act (see Peter Hume Brown, History of Scotland, 3 vols. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1909), 3: 328n.). This seems to provide some legal basis for the undoubted discouragement of the playing of the instrument, in addition to the natural decline caused by the deliberate efforts of the Government to destroy the Highland culture.
Parmst 14:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you have a reference that lends some credibility to the story and it's really off-topic in this article (as presently used, anyway), you might consider removing it from this article. You could discuss the issue in Great Highland bagpipe, if you feel it's appropriate. --Craig Stuntz 16:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: See my reply below as to why this comment existed in the first place.  As for the hapless James Reid (the poor chap had no idea what he was starting), his pipes had absolutely nothing to do with his trial; the various Disarming Acts were not even in force at the time of his trial and he was hanged quite simply as a traitor.  The reference to the bagpipe was a failed defence ploy claiming that Reid was not a soldier at all.  His treatment was suprisingly harsh, but it had absolutely no effect on the policing of the later Disarming Acts in the Highlands (see John Gibson's Traditional Gaelic Bagpiping, particularly chapters 2-3).  The only point I am really trying to make here is that many early (and indeed modern) writers on the bagpipe do not meet Wikipedia's standards! Calum 12:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The main page should be a general page about the bagpipe and not get into specifics about any particular bagpipe.  Short description of various bagpipes, then a general concise history, then a list of the various bagpipes(there are many!), with various links etc. More pictures of various bagpipes including old paintings and sculptures etc.(about 7 images would do)LadyJaneMay 00:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article as it stands does this fairly well - at least it is what I was trying to achieve last time I undertook a major edit of the page.  There is an general overview of the parts of the bagpipe (which has since been edited and now needs more work, but never mind) - chanter, drones, bag, etc.  There is a history, which, as I am an English speaker and can only really speak with any certainty on British (and Breton) piping, could do with some knowledgable expansion.  Really, there is very little to say about the history of the generic bagpipe: "It was invented a long time ago, and now exists in many places" is about as useful a summary as a generic history can provide.  Before I edited the article it was exactly what you describe and it was an unencylopaedic mess (which parts of it still are).  Anyone wishing to learn what a bagpipe was was given a description of a half dozen different (Anglo/Celtic) bagpipes and left to get on with it.  There is now a Types_of_bagpipes page which lists every type Wikipedia knows about, and that is the best place for such a list.  As for illustrations, I would agree some more would be good - I particularly dislike having two GHB photos on this page, though I think the first picture is ideal - however, historical paintings and sculpture are as reliable as Grattan Flood as to details of the pipes (just compare modern illustrations or sculptures of the GHB to the actual instrument to see what I mean).  The guiding constraint for images should be: are they suited to an encyclopedia article on "bagpipes" or would they be better off illustrating a particular species of the family? Calum 20:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proscription of bagpipes after the '45 

message: Badagnani  has restored my deleation [].  Really this  paragraph has no place on the main bagpipe page and it should be put, if at all on the highland pipe page.  The paragraph is only an opinion and is not encyclopedic. LadyJaneMay 10:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Worse, he restored it with the comment, "Use 'discussion' before deleting large areas of text, thank you," when in fact you and Parmst (talk • contribs) had already done exactly that! I do think your edit summary could have been clearer, though. There is no policy on Wikipedia requiring use of the Talk page before deleting a paragraph, especially when it makes an un-sourced and off-topic claim. I'm going to re-delete the paragraph for reasons both of you have already explained in Proscription of bagpipes after the '45. We have a good reason, with a source, to believe that the claim LadyJaneMay deleted isn't true. --Craig Stuntz 13:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You can still do that! I'm uncomfortable with it as it stands based on your citation here in talk, but if you have the citations to fix it, feel free. Do note, however, that I didn't delete the part about Gratten Flood (LadyJaneMay did, but my changes are different than hers). I just added a  template and toned down the POV in the language. But I agree that the proscription part would go well in the GHB article if factually tweaked and properly sourced. I just don't have the references on hand that you seem to have. --Craig Stuntz 18:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to understand why this review of the Grattan Flood book, "The Story of the Bagpipe", is placed on the main bagpipe page. I have in fact lately read the book, and it is quite interesting.  Really if editors have a problem with it, then why mention it at all, the "anti" comment just shouldn't be on the main page. There are other books on the bagpipe too! LadyJaneMay 10:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the original paragraph some years ago, IIRC, though what you deleted has been altered several times since.  I would agree that it is not ideal for an encyclopaedia article; the reason I wrote it to begin with is that (as you all well know) bagpipes are an astonishing magnet for all sorts of nonsense, and given the state of the article back then I thought a gentle prod to those who good intentions outstripped their knowledge was in order.  The time is probably right for its removal.  As for Grattan Flood, it is just fantasy.  Try and find supporting references for the stuff he comes up with; there isn't any.  Good quality work on piping history is very hard to come by - many other secondary sources are poor quality as well.  Many fail to cite references, or to check facts (witness the myth of the proscription of the GHB).  Calum 12:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Un-encyclopedic paragraph

message: Unfortunately, and may I point out again that the Bagpipe page is basically focusing on British and Irish bagpiping.  These traditions have their own respective pages and we don't need this detail at the expense of other Asian and European histories.  Please editors, much of the bagpipe page should be rewritten with this in mind. LadyJaneMay 00:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't overstate the case as many world bagpipes are mentioned, but it's true that more on other pipes would be good to have.  It all has to do with the expertise of the editors, many of whom are GHB players and know most about these pipes.  But it's also important to note that the worldwide use of British Isles pipes vastly outnumbers the use of the other pipes, for many of which there may be fewer than a few dozen players left.  If you'd like to add more on the other pipes, please do so.  Sean Folsom's "hotpipes" page has good information on many of them.  Badagnani 00:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very strongly against having reams of material on individual types of bagpipe in this article - that was the situation before and it was a mess.  As the article stands it does not describe any particular bagpipe in detail, although it does name many and it is indeed Euro-centric.  Unfortunately, the vast mass of scholarship (such as it is) concentrates on Britain, Ireland, and Europe, and has very little about the rest of the world.  Do regions such as Asia or Africa have any indigenous piping traditions at all?  I know of hardly anything. Calum 16:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think the comment meant that great detail be added about each pipe.  We've been through that before.  It meant that the article should equitably cover pipes as they're found throughout Europe, Asia, and North Africa (Middle East).  Yes, of course indigenous pipes are found the latter areas.  Some of these pipes are covered in the List of bagpipes.  Badagnani 17:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anglo/Celtic route

message: i cant find an article on piobaireach.  if not, is calum or anyone else going to write an article for it.
i am too busy now to write an article, but if nobody comes to the rescue, then maybe someday i will write an article on it.
joe 22:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Piobaireachd Pibrock

message: Considering the ease with which one can find pages of bagpipe jokes on the internet, shouldn't something be said of bagpipes as a subject of humor? I'll admit I've seen pages of jokes aimed at other instruments, too. tharkun860 20:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A section on bagpipe jokes inevitably degenerates into a list of poor examples, usually mutated viola jokes.  There aren't all that many jokes specific to bagpipes and as you say, if you want to find bagpipe jokes GIYF.  I clobbered the jokes section back in June last year and no-one objected.  Perhaps an article on bagpipe jokes? Calum 17:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bagpipe jokes 

message: I'd like to note that the bag section assumes a mouth-blown pipe. I am going to recast the section to not be specific to mouth-blown pipes. It seems to be part of a lingering GHB-centric perspective to piping... +Fenevad 23:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bag section is written with a mouth-blown POV 

message: I just removed the following addition made overnight by Camusgoalie:
:Time Magazine (27 September 1963) reports that a violent mob besieged the British Embassy in Djakarta, Indonesia earlier that month.  British Ambassador, Andrew Gilchrist, a proud Scot, is reported to have shown his contempt for the mob by sending his military attache (also Scottish) to parade up and down (inside the fence) in front of the mob playing the bagpipes.  The wisdom of this was doubtful - two days later the mob returned and ransacked the embassy before burning it down.
It was placed in the types section -- clearly the wrong place -- and I don't think it belongs in the article, but if someone wants to argue for its inclusion, please clean up the writing (it's pretty pro-Scottish) and place it back in the appropriate place.
--Fenevad 12:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pipes and the 
Scottish
 British embassy 

message: The following item has been added (and removed) from the article twice:
:proto IE Bagpipes
While there is nothing wrong with the item, the problem is that the link is to what is claimed to be proto-IE bagpipes, but there is nothing on the site to contextualize or explain the image. It is asserted that the image is of bagpipes, but it is not self-evident that the image shows bagpipes (it looks like it could be, but I wouldn't bet that it is). The link would be GREAT if it went to a page that analyzed the image and explained why scholars believe it to be bagpipes. Alternately, if you are to include it, please put in a paragraph in the section on history that links to the image and explains it.
A bare link, however, is not the way to handle this item +Fenevad 13:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: HAHAHAHA!  Badagnani 10:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hittite bagpipe link 

message: I'm curious how to decide what comprises "notable" non-traditional uses of bagpipes. Someone just added an AC-DC song, which I think is getting out there, but then there is no way to decide what is notable and what isn't since that is POV. That little section may need to be worked on somewhat to figure out some way to keep it from growing in the long run into a list of everything people happen to know of that uses bagpipes. (We had a similar problem over on Hurdy gurdy, and eventually had to move the whole list to subarticle because everyone wanted to add something...) -Fenevad 19:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i think most notable use of 'hand blow' (Polish style kobza or dudy) bagpipes was to produce first man made iron by Hyttites, but it may be again original :) research Anyway my time expenses was 1 minute to write this sentence Nasz 12:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text: There is a sub-article for all and every kind of nonsense that people have managed to get up to with a bag and sticks - I think as far as this article goes, there should not be more than five specific examples, there should be a good variety, and most people should have heard of them.  So while most people have heard of Orkeny Wedding or Mull of Kintyre, I would suggest that Korn might not be on that list (though I accept that it obviously varies according to your culture... Calum 21:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable uses 

message: Does anyone have a reference to suggest that the passage has been correctly translated to refer to bagpipes?  I am inclined to believe it is yet another case of optimistic translation on slender grounds.  I've added a cite tag, and will delete the relevant material in a short while if nobody has any objections. Calum 17:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silius Italicus 

message: The Great Irish Warpipes and the Great Highland Bagpipes virtually the same instrument. The distinction came about in the British Army, with the invention of those names. The 3 chanter pipes have been played in Ireland for as long as they have been played in Scotland, and 150 years ago they were known as the pipes, or the Piob Mhor.  I believe that the reference to the GIW should not have been removed, and I am reinstating it for the above reasons. Gold_heart 01:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  The historical (18th century and earlier) large Irish bagpipe, commonly termed the warpipes, was a distinct instrument from the modern GHB.  That bagpipe disappeared sometime in the 1700s and we know so little about it it's not funny.  The Scottish bagpipe moved into Ireland during the 18th century and was seized upon by the nationalist/revival crowd as the authentic article.  The naming controversy is down to them, it has nothing to do with the Army.  The term 'Great Highland Bagpipe' owes more to 19th century manufacturers catalogues than anything else. Anyway, I've added a cite tag; if anyone wants to back up the above argument, I'd love to hear from you.  Otherwise I'll expunge it in a couple of days.  195.62.202.107 20:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Piob Mhor

message: I remember hearing a news report that long-term playing of the bagpipes can lead to lung problems from the dust inhaled from the bag on par with smoking several cigarettes a day. Is this true, and is it a serious enough problem to merit mention? Sloverlord 00:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No.  A natural (hide/leather) bag is moist and there is no dust.  Synthetic bags are not dusty either (unless severely unplayed ;)  There are occasionally news reports, generally from reporters too lazy to do any actual fact checking (as opposed to being happy with two opposing soundbites), condemning the bagpipe for all kinds of unhealthy nonsense.  I don't know and have never heard of any pipers with lung problems caused by piping.  Calum 18:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps if there's no dust, there may be mold spores in a poorly maintained set. Badagnani 18:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite possibly true, although in general such sets generally don't often come within sufficient proximity of a piper to cause health concerns ;) Calum 19:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Health concerns 

message: I came to this page hoping to get a cutaway or some such to better understand how bagpipes work/create sound. Is there a page out there with a basic cutaway that explains this? e.g., after reading this page it is still not clear to me where the reed is exactly.
:Perhaps this might be of assistance.  The reed is inserted in the top of the chanter (where the yellow hemp is) and the top on the right covers it.  As for how it works - basically any woodwind instrument works by creating a column of air (by enclosing it with an instrument like a chanter or drone) and then vibrating it at a frequency that causes the column of air to resonate.  Vibrating is done with a reed of some kind or by moving air over a fipple.   has some useful visuals - off the top of my head the measurements do not look like good ones but they are a decent representation. Calum 15:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More infomation 

message: There is a little bit of a minor problem with the photo of the bagpipe player at the top of the article. Thechnically its okay, but the thing is that this guy is not a "real" highland scot bagpipe player. I know this guy and he acually is a Dutch guy living near Amsterdam. Even better, this photo is taken right in front of the Royal Palace on the Dam Square in Amsterdam. Check the photo at high resolution of the palace, in particular the base of the structure and compare it to the background of the piper photo.
Now, I have heard the guy play, and he is quite good at it. He's no amateur that is for shure! But then, its a bit strange to have a photo of a Dutchguy dressed up like a scot in the middle of Amsterdam playin' the pipes to dipict such a icon of Scottish culture! Perhaps it would be better to replace this photo with one of a "real" scotsman. No offence ofcourse to the exelent player that is depicted here!
Bobby Siecker
22-7-2007
The Netherlands
:Well, he's good enough for the Scottish Socialists (they pinched the image for their election literature - without citation).  More to the point, it is a decent image, well lit, the subject is reasonably well dressed and the instrument is in reasonable condition.  No reason it has to be a Scot.  Indeed, there's no reason it has to be a Highland Piper - the main argument for it is that it is the best known bagpipe and what nine out of ten people landing here will expect to see. Calum 19:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Photo of the bagpipe player