Talk:Historic Adventism

message: I would like to comment that I strongly support the creation of this article! It gives a nuanced, "insider" point of view into the Adventist church (yet the statements are easily verifiable as well). It also simply gives an insight into the people and the theology of the church. Its counterpart which I started, Progressive Adventists has a similar purpose, although I believe it represents a much larger proportion of scholars. For me, this insider, nuanced approach is a good thing - I believe it is a way of being open and including, and not insular. Let's just be careful to keep it as NPOV as possible. Colin MacLaurin 11:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved both. Some articles will need updating. Colin MacLaurin 14:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article creation 

message: Should we move the article to Historic Adventism? I seem to recall reading a policy somewhere that articles like this should be named as an "ism". Compare Christianity (not "Christian") etc. The same would of course be true for Progressive Adventist. Colin MacLaurin 11:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved both. Some articles will need updating. Colin MacLaurin 14:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: We need to discuss the definition of "historic Adventism" and when to label particular people as "Historic", "Progressive" etc. Perhaps to say, "The following prominent Adventists hold to at least one of the beliefs considered historic [/progressive] above: ..." is the best option, because this is easily verifiable if they have published their views. However it is not easily verifiable to label them outright as traditional, liberal etc. (See also the discussion at Talk:Progressive Adventists#Some ideas and thoughts).
: I think that "historic SDA" and "progressive SDA" are primarily self-designations, rather than labels applied by others (hence the current opening sentence of this article). For example, historic SDAs label everyone else (including the mainstream church) as "New Theology" believers  instead of "mainstream" or "progressive". Meanwhile, mainstreams and progressives are likely to take issue with the term "historic SDA" (see ). So yes, we have to exercise caution when applying these labels. It's probably safest to only use a label when the person (or group) in question has already labelled themselves as such. Tonicthebrown 11:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, if you read Corson's article more carefully, you'll see that he defines historic SDAs as people who "desire to hold to, and continue with, the beliefs that were instituted at the founding of the church, during the mid to latter 1800's", and also reject QOD. He also mentions "moderates" (see paragraphs 1 & 2 of his article) who lie in between historics and progressives. Thus, his definition of "historic SDA" is accurate, and excludes the "conservative mainstream" (as you call them). The mainstream disagrees with the 1800s positions and agrees with QOD. Tonicthebrown 11:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions of "Historic", "Progressive" etc. 

message: I have just been talking to a friend of mine who knows much more about the Adventist church than I do. He said that terms such as "historic" are highly nuanced - in particular, not all self-termed "historic Adventists" necessarily believe in perfectionism and a certain christology. The article may hint at this, but if true it needs to be clearly stated. Colin MacLaurin 12:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology: Further discussion 

message: I replaced Last Generation Theology as an example of Historic Adventism. Does anyone disagree? (If so, please give a good reason). Colin MacLaurin 02:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would call LGT a subset or offshoot of Historic Adventism, so I agree with it being listed in the article here. But Larry Kirkpatrick has argued it is significantly different. See . Perhaps that's why someone might want it left off Tonicthebrown 08:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for pointing that out, Tonic, and providing the link (which I read completely)! I have tried to improve the article accordingly. Colin MacLaurin 09:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Generation Theology 

message: I was reading the Progressive Adventist article and noticed that a number of tertiary institutions are listed as being progressive.  I wondered whether institutions such as the the Institute of Advanced Study in the Phillipines are mentioned anywhere as being known for being very conservative? -Fermion 10:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to see you here, Fermion! You haven't shown up on my watchlist for some time. Do you agree with the list on Progressive Adventist? By the way, I tried to integrate your suggestions about tertiary education leading to Adventist Forums, etc. on that page. Perhaps you could list some of the institutions you know to be conservative, so that we'll know what references to look for. (Just quietly, I didn't reference the list I put on progressive Adventist, and plan to get references eventually, but I doubt that anyone will seriously question it.) Colin MacLaurin 12:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Colin, I do agree with your list and can think of one or two others.  Of course this is the crux of the problem, but really depends on who you talk to.  Walla Walla, it is true, is known for being progressive, but some would say this is unfair and has earned this label from a few unfortunate incidents.  The IAS I mention in the Phillipines is universally recognised as fairly conservative.  Southern is considered by some to be conservative but by others to be dangerous (I think if you live North of Southern, it is conservative, and if you live South it is dangerous!). Fermion 01:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To answer your origin question Fermion, I believe there are no articles stating the IAS as conservative. I think that it could be placed on the Seventh-day Adventist theology article - perhaps not ideal but good enough for now. I assume that it is not historic? By the way, do you know if there are any historic theologians employed by the official church? Colin MacLaurin 14:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tertiary institutions known for being very conservative 

message: * The Great Billboard Controversy
Presumably this page is still on the website somewhere. Colin MacLaurin 07:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link needing replacing 

message: * Historic Adventis* AND NOT "Historic Adventist Village" search in the Seventh-day Adventist Periodical Index (SDAPI)
* Seeking a Sanctuary, the detailed sociological study on Adventism by non-Adventist authors, has some excellent material on this topic. I'll have a copy soon. My copy arrived today, along with many other books! Colin MacLaurin (talk) 07:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resources 

message: It has been nearly 3 years since the above discussion, and another editor has just reminded me about the merge proposal. Tonicthebrown and I agree that LGT and Historic Adventism are not identical. However I still believe they should be merged, because:
# they are strongly related: I understand LGT as a subset of Historic Adventism, its proponents see it as a sort of offshoot; either way they are different emphases in the same general movement.
# LGT has few independent secondary reliable sources. Most sources in the article do not fulfill these criteria.
I suppose LGT is both a theological belief about the end-time sinless perfection of earth's final generation (supported by Andreasen, Heppenstall etc., see Seeking a Sanctuary p93) and also the self-given name of a small more recent movement led by Larry Kirkpatrick and others. I could try to complete the merge later this year, unless others beat me to it. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 02:37, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  From my point of view, if someone wants to take the time to do it, be my guest. But I don't count it as a priority. Tonicthebrown (talk) 10:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revived discussion 

message: I have emailed the Standish brothers, who are leading historic Adventists, to invite them to either improve this article or email me with suggestions. I didn't mention WP:NPOV or WP:V; I may need to in the future. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 07:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standishes emailed 

message: I agree this list isn't entirely appropriate for the article. I've put it here for research purposes. Tonicthebrown (talk) 02:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  No probs mate, I had a look and thought it was getting a little too disordered Tonicthebrown (talk) 08:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historic groups and publishers

message: I like the new layout by Tonicthebrown of putting all the publications in a list. I have just done a similar thing for Progressive Adventism - that page looks much more pretty now! Colin MacLaurin (talk) 06:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  No probs mate, I had a look and thought it was getting a little too disordered Tonicthebrown (talk) 08:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New layout 

message: An informed person told me Jack Provonsha was closer to being a "liberal". I am conscious of not confusing readers nor misrepresenting Provonsha, as Taylor called his book "an apologetic for historic Adventism." Important to explain the nuances of "historic". Colin MacLaurin (talk) 12:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provonsha 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:SundayLawTimes01.JPG

message: Willfults, if you believe that this article is biased towards the Spectrum and AToday POV, the solution is not to delete and replace material wholesale (especially when said material is well written and backed up by citations). The solution is to add credible balancing material of your own, and suggest changes one step at a time and achieve a consensus among the editors of this article. (of which I am only one.) This is the accepted procedure on Wikipedia and you need to abide by it. Tonicthebrown (talk) 13:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Willfults, your large scale non-NPOV revisions were not acceptable last week and they are still not acceptable now. I note that you have not engaged with what I posted here on the talk page a week ago. I also note that you are using false edit summaries (you have not simply "added theology", you have also deleted large swathes of properly cited, encyclopedic material). I intend to continue opposing your revisions until you follow Wikipedia policy and discuss them here, one by one, before implementing them. Tonicthebrown (talk) 13:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Alleged Spectrum and AToday POV

message: Last Generation Theology has an old merge tag on it (December 2007) and I was hoping we could decide what to do about it. It was discussed a long time ago here. AIRcorn (talk) 11:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging articles 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified