Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tropical cyclones/Archive 7

message: I know we did this before, but I think one should be written here  again for each basin. We should make a list of the top 10 most costliest tropical cyclones without an article for each basin. Or maybe the atlantic should be 10, and the rest 5. Then maybe that table/list could be moved to the article requests page. Is this reasonable? íslenska hurikein #12(samtal) 00:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Off the top of my head, I know Tropical Storm Doria from 1971 is the costliest U.S. without an article, followed by Beryl (1994) and I think Isbell (1964). However, a more interesting list would be the costliest tropical cyclone articles that are not at least GA class. That would be Wilma ($18 billion), Rita ($10 billion), Fran ($3.2 billion), Frederic ($2.3 billion), Agnes ($2.1 billion), Alicia ($2 billion), Lili ($860 million), Diane ($831 million), Bonnie ($720 million), and Erin ($700 million). Hurricanehink (talk) 00:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You forgot Alma (1966). That was $210 million and 90 dead. Maybe someone should make an article for it. íslenska hurikein #12(samtal) 16:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No I didn't. Besides, that list isn't important. We should concentrate on the costliest tropical cyclone articles that are not at least GA class. Hurricanehink (talk) 17:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh whoops. Some reason there was no link to the article from the season page. íslenska hurikein #12(samtal) 17:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Weird. For some reason, a user removed it a few weeks ago. Hurricanehink (talk) 17:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of most costliest tropical cyclones without an article

message: I know that we give the main page to retired storms or single use names. This means that Hurricane Celia is the retired Atlantic storm of 1970 and Hurricane Celia (disambiguation) is the disambig. However most names are not that simple, for example Katrina. There were several Atlantic/E Pac storms (in addition to 2005's) and one southern hemisphere cyclone called Katrina. This means that the disambig is placed at the location neutral Tropical Storm Katrina (disambiguation). However in this case is the (disambiguation) necessary? I think Tropical Storm Katrina should be the disambig location and not a redirect to the disambig. Any comments?--Nilfanion (talk) 21:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ehh, the main article should be for the retired storm. Otherwise, it might get confusing, like for storms like Allison and Thelma. Hurricanehink (talk) 01:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Should have explained it slightly clearer. Basically I'm saying the (disambiguation) should only be used when necessary, in the case of Celia only Atlantic/EPac storms were called Celia so Hurricane Celia (disambiguation) is appropriate but for Katrina, Hurricane Katrina is the main article and Tropical Storm Katrina should be the disambig as opposed to Tropical Storm Katrina (disambiguation). In the case of Allison, Tropical Storm Allison should be the main article and Tropical Storm Allison (disambiguation) the disambig.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand, but I think when the name is retired, it should have every main article. What if people remember a storm, but don't remember it was a hurricane, so they type in Tropical Storm Floyd, for example. That might happen for someone in New England, and there'd be no reason to link to the disambiguation page. It really doesn't matter either way. Plus, the disambiguation pages don't even need that much attention. I doubt many people even go into them. They're more like storage sheds that few need to look through. Why clean them when no one will notice? --Hurricanehink (talk) 12:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they would reach the disambig and realise the error - it does its purpose. It is sensible that they are set up correctly for the editors, if the disambigs are all correct, a new article on a storm won't go on the main page if it is inappropriate (the disambig will be there). Getting the disambigs correct is part of making naming policy consistent for the main articles, which is beneficial (if very tedious).--Nilfanion (talk) 13:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But they could avoid the error by simply having Tropical Storm Floyd redirect to Hurricane Floyd. I don't know, does anyone else have an opinion? --Hurricanehink (talk) 13:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think anyone would oppose more organization to categories, so that sounds great. Hurricanehink (talk) 02:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it always enables better coverage if and when we get more information after all, when Pre-1980 Southern Hemisphere tropical cyclone seasons becomes unmanagably large...--Nilfanion (talk) 10:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambigs 

message: Can we create a page similar to Wikipedia:WikiProject New Hampshire/muncarticlewatch? If you look at the page, you'll see what it's for (too hard for me to explain in my current mood). If we create one, the info for a hurricane article may solve assessment class disputes. What do you say? But it's gonna take multiple people to keep the page current. íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 13:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That would really cool. Good idea Icelandic Hurricane! The only problem I can see is that it would be a little long (NH has 258 articles, we have 697). We could split it up by area; having Atlantic, EPAC, WPAC, NIO, Southern Hemispher, and other. If that were the case, it wouldn't be too long. --Hurricanehink (talk) 18:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And in the categories EPAC, Atlantic, WPAC,NIO, SHEM, and other, we can have subcategories separating the storms and the seasons. Also, will need a category for non-storm or season articles, like Tropical cyclone and the SSHS. íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 13:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  Just use comments at the Assessment table, or wait a bit until the "comments" portion of the project stabilizes and becomes semi-permanent, and add them there. Titoxd(?!?) 06:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh cool, I forgot we had that page. That works well, too. --Hurricanehink (talk) 12:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: article watch page

message: I thought to myself that, especially on the season pages, the fact that to find information to a storm (the current box) that someone has to scroll down to get the information in the section can be a bit difficult to some that just pop in here, looking for the latest information. Also I felt the current shape does mess the text up somewhat.
I decided to make a test redesign, in a horizontal bar (similar to Template:HurricaneWarning) which should always be placed at the top of a season page or storm article page (right with the Current tab), with links to the details below. The template is at Template:HurricaneActiveExperimental, and there are four examples on the talk page. CrazyC83 00:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting... I like it; we should use it. íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 13:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's certainly an interesting concept but that layout is flawed. It lists less relevant information to the storm, is (to me) less readable and too colorful compared to the existing one and less flexible (theres a reason that it was expanded to include 1 min, 10 min and gusts). Nevermind some more minor problems, what happens when there are 3 active storms in a season? I don't see a problem with the current template for the seasonal page, maybe it should be reduced in width to be comparable to the small box though. However for the active storms, there is a need for a revision; having both HurricaneActive and Infobox hurricane in an article really messes things up. For Active storms it might be best to just comment out Infobox hurricane and put the storm pic in the storm history and put the HurricaneActive at the top of the article.--Nilfanion (talk) 14:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are multiple active storms, both charts are put together at the top of the page (if neither has a separate article). I never got into those other measurements yet as it is experimental. CrazyC83 21:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  Or modify HurricaneActive so it looks more like Infobox hurricane? Titoxd(?!?) 21:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redesign suggestion for Template:HurricaneActive 

message: Just so everyone knows, someone put Cyclone Tracy up for Featured Article Review, and so far 2 people voted for its removal. --Hurricanehink (talk) 12:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: About time really. Cyclone Tracy isn't FA-Class, I'm not sure if it would pass a GAN in its current state. If it does get removed does B-Class sound about right?--Nilfanion (talk) 14:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea that works. --Hurricanehink (talk) 14:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyclone Tracy FARC 

message: Well, it seems I've found quite a bit of information about the BoM's cyclone records here, for those who are interested. Remember that many of these are covered by Crown Copyright, so you cannot copy them outright, but that you can always reference them like any other book. Titoxd(?!?) 06:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you say the search term you used, that direct link doesn't seem to work right for me. Nice find by the looks of it; just hope there is best track data.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just followed Cyclone Tracy's TCR, and then clicked on the BoM link (record E490) in the table near the bottom. Titoxd(?!?) 20:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Australian TCRs (or similar) 

message: I came up with a bit of guidelines for getting articles for all storm in 1 season:
1) Season must have 8 articles as the low amount.
2) All of those articles must be GA-class or higher. (Such as 2003 which has 4 sof its 8 at the level.)
3) The season must have at least 10 landfalling storms.
4) The season must have at least 4 Major hurricanes.
So far: 2003 (meets everything but 4), 2004 (Meets all), 1998 (meets all), 1995 (meets everything but 1).
Leave your opinion.HurricaneCraze32 18:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose all number-based rules. --Golbez 20:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There'd be too many old seasons that could qualify, but there would be no point. Why should a season like 1969, which passes all but 3, have articles for all storms? We should, instead, turn this into a discussion of which seasons could even theoretically have articles for each storm without too many storm history-only articles. I've said it before, I'll say it again, the key to articles is having enough information. If there's not enough information, don't make the article. If there is, then make it. If the season is new, and there is a consensus that having all storms have articles would be better for the season article and Wikipedia in general, then all articles would be fine. 2004 could be an example of this. So far, every storm but Karl, Lisa, Nicole, and Otto don't have articles. There's probably enough information outside of the season article to justify their articles, and each are fairly interesting storms. Lisa could have a records section (one of the longest times to reach hurricane status), Nicole could have Subtropical Storm info (first named subtropical storm that didn't become tropical), and Otto could have out-of-season stuff. Also, Karl could simply have a long storm history. The same goes from 2003 back to 1999. 1998 might be a little hard, due to the fact it had 6 fish storms, but it's possible. 1997 is probably too far and couldn't work. SS1, Ana, Bill, Claudette, Fabian, and Grace barely had any impact, and their storm histories would all be pretty short. 1996 through 1993 could possibly work, but there's too little info on most storms. That's just my opinion. --Hurricanehink (talk) 20:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry if that's directed towards me. I just wanted to state my opinion. 1997 PHS could work. On one hand, it could allow for a major reorganization like 2005 AHS. On the other hand, 9 storms had little to no effect on land. Do you think there is enough information for storms like Blanca, Carlotta, Dolores, Hilda, Kevin, or Marty? Guillermo, Ignacio, and Rick should be relatively easy. I don't know. If we're going to this case-by-case, should we have individual discussions on the season articles? --Hurricanehink (talk) 21:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea. That sounds cool. But I was hoping we could start doing articles on all EPac storms for 2006, like we do in the Atlantic. It would be hard, but I'm sure we could do it. And typhoons in 2006 wouldn't have much trouble, Jelawat, Ewiniar, and Bilis have impact info, so I'm sure we could make articles, as long as it's written right. íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 21:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  No, the instruction creep comment was pointed towards the numerical guidelines, as they do not give enough flexibility to special situations. Pauline is the costliest EPac hurricane, and there is abundant information about it on the Internet, so it shouldn't be hard to do. Same goes for Rick. Fishspinners can follow the Irene (2005) model, so it can be done. I do agree with Icelandic Huricane that we should try to do it for the 2006 seasons first, though. Titoxd(?!?) 22:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, ok. Irene is a good model, but mainly for new storms. 1997 EPAC storms won't have discussions, nor did they have any records. IMO if we're going to do an all articles thing, we should discuss it on the season talk page, including 2006 seasons. --Hurricanehink (talk) 22:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Cool. Now we just need a good article writer to write about low impact storms. So, what about the WPac? íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 22:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we should discuss on the season pages for which ones would A) be informationally possible, and B) have enough interesting storms so the individual articles wouldn't be near-copies of the season article. Hurricanehink (talk) 17:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles for all season storms 

message: I did a complete remake of the page and added a lot to it.HurricaneCraze32||Talk to HC32 14:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, nice job. íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 00:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1997 AHS

message: Well, the one-and-only Tropical Cyclones Portal is now featured as the portal of the month in Portal:Browse, and it will stay there for about a month.  Titoxd(?!?) 22:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 01:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Portal:Browse]] 

message: We have a lot of these articles. Should we continue around the entire world? This is what we have so far;
*History of hurricanes in the Caribbean- Incomplete list which is proposed to be split
*List of Canadian hurricanes- Proposed to be split up by area
*List of New England hurricanes- List-only format now (only says Storm X hit Y on Z date)
*List of New Jersey hurricanes- Featured List
*List of Delaware hurricanes
*List of Florida hurricanes- Mostly only covers the storm, when, and where they hit
**Catastrophic Florida hurricanes: 1900-1960- Pseudo sub-article of the above
**Catastrophic Florida hurricanes: 1961-present- Re: above
*Catastrophic Texas hurricanes since 1900- List of damaging Texas hurricanes
*List of Arizona hurricanes
*List of California hurricanes- Featured list
*List of Hawaii hurricanes
*Typhoons in the Philippines- Very incomplete list
*List of Bangladesh tropical cyclones & Tropical cyclones in Bangladesh- Two pages covering Bangladesh tropical cyclones, not complete
*List of West African Hurricanes
*List of South America cyclones
I think that's all of them. However, given that we've already started doing some unusual ones, we should discuss which others to add or change around. Of the existing ones, I think that the Caribbean should be split up by area greatly; Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic (or just Hispaniola with Haiti), Puerto Rico, Leeward Islands, Windward Islands, and Central America (which itself could be split up by country). For those that affected more than one area (like Georges off the top of my head), they could just be listed in each article with their respective effects. The Canadian hurricanes, per the discussion on its talk page, would be split up into Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Quebec, and Ontario, with the main article still in tact as a quasi-disambiguation page/overall info. Should New York be included in New England hurricanes? Few, if any hurricanes have effected only New York. 
What should we do about Florida? If we want to make it like the Featured Lists, it would simply be too long. Two options have been discussed; split it up by area (Florida keys, south Florida, Gold Coast, Florida panhandle) or time periods. Each has its problems. Most storms that effected one of the areas of Florida effected another area. While it could just be repeated, some storms wouldn't have enough information to justify having it at both places. In addition, what would the defining lines be? On the other hand, if we split it up by time periods, what would be in the main article? Personally, I prefer the time periods, by having a List of Florida hurricanes before 1980, for example, and have the ~60 storms from 1980 to present in the main article. In addition, climatology (number of storms, earliest storm, latest storm), commonness of storms (Florida having record TC activity), and other sections could be added. However, what would be the use for the Catastrophic hurricane articles? I know Eric put a lot of work into them, but they wouldn't be particularly useful in the new format. If the hurricane was devestating to Florida, the information should be in the hurricane article, not in a disambiguation-type list page. The same goes for the Texas hurricanes. A List of Texas hurricanes article should be created, with a possible older storms page. I think the Bangladesh cyclone pages should be merged. The Philippine page has problems similar to Florida. Maybe due to the very high number of storms, there can be a lot of sub-articles in the timeline, with one main page covering climatology and notable storms. The List of West African hurricanes is an interesting little article, and as mentioned by Icelandic Hurricane, it could be expanded greatly to become a List of African hurricanes. Such a list could include Arabian Sea impacts, as well as Southern Indian impacts. IMO, Madagascar shouldn't be included, as there would be enough to justify having a List of Madagascar cyclones. 
As for finishing going around the world, North America and Asia would be the primary areas needed. Starting with the United States, all that's needed is Pennsylvania, Mid-Atlantic (Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia), North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and perhaps List of United States hurricanes which could serve as a disambiguator as well as listing notable inland storms. Mexico has the problem of too many storms. Options include an Atlantic page and a Pacific page, splitting it by time periods, or splitting up by area (List of Yucatan Peninsula hurricanes, List of Mainland Mexico hurricanes, List of Baja California hurricanes). Bahamas and Bermuda could also each get one, though finding good information for there could be a potential problem. One page could be for all of South America. While a page might seem useless, 18 tropical cyclone effected the continent since 1900, including the South Atlantic. Another page could be for all of Europe, which could cover every tropical and once-tropical storm to effect the continent. Thailand, China, Taiwan, N/S Korea, and Japan should all get list articles, with appropriate adjustments. The Indian Ocean is where it gets tricky. India and Myanmar could work, though I don't know about the northwestern Indian. Australia and Indonesia also deserve their own, but split ups might be needed. 
Well, they're just my opinions. You can ignore them if you want, but what are your opinions? What should we do with the List of XXX hurricane pages? --Hurricanehink (talk) 00:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you should calm down a little Hink, lol. Probably the best way to approach this is to start with the regional categories. If those are properly populated the list of XXX article is just a prose version of Category:TCs in XXX. If the category structure is all correct, making the articles will be much easier. Also ones like the Caribbean list, that has no purpose because it covers way too much. However, the subcats would give guidance onto what articles are reasonable.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL, don't worry, that was just because I had my first day off in a week, so some ideas were brewing :) Good idea with the categories, I forgot about them. Should the categories be changed to reflect the List of XXX article? For example, Delta and Beryl are both in the West African list, but in separate categories. Hurricanehink (talk) 01:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the category structure that needs to be redone. To use Africa as an example, I think there should be a :Category:Tropical cyclones in Africa, which has 3 subcategories for each of the three relevant basins. Each of those regions should then be subcategorized further by country or territory. There is no need for every cat to have an associated list article, List of Canary Island hurricanes would be a singularly pointless article, in that case the West Africa one would probably suffice as the comphrensive listing. Basically :Category:Tropical cyclones by region needs revision, just like :Category:Tropical cyclones by season (which I'm slowly working on).--Nilfanion (talk) 10:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Does that mean storms/hurricanes that impacted the Cape Verde Islands would be on a West African list?  I seem to remember Donna produced some significant effects in that island chain.  There are likely other tropical cyclones that have as well.  Thegreatdr 12:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, every storm that affected the islands should be on that list. Unfortunately, TCR's rarely give Cape Verde impact, and the islands have very little information on tropical cyclones in the area. Other tropical cyclones, including possibly Donna, probably affected the area, but if we don't know for a fact that they were impacted they should be removed from the list. --Hurricanehink (talk) 14:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO :Category:Tropical cyclones by region and its subcategories already provide sensible "lists" that are as good or better than the simple "Storm X hit location Y on date Z" lists provided by some of those articles.  True list articles should be aimed at eventually becoming featured lists, not just at creating such "stub" categorical lists.  List of California hurricanes was the first such list.  And I certainly agree that not every location needs such a list article. — jdorje (talk) 17:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of XXX hurricanes, what to do? 

message: We have the coding for severe tropical storms available at  but we hardly use it. Looking at this Australian BoM produced table it seems like RAIV and the JTWC are the exceptions in not subdividing the TS range, not the rule. I wonder if we should modify the way we do things in account of that. For instance Tropical Storm Lee (2005) would use the TS color in the Infobox, but Tropical Storm Arlene (2005) would use the STS color (still naming it as Tropical Storm of course). Maybe, another revision to the track maps would be worthwhile too. This would provide greater global consistency without data loss. Another benefit is TS would then correspond to gale force winds and STS to storm force winds, which would be useful if the tracks program gets extended to non-tropical systems. What do people think?--Nilfanion (talk) 11:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is confusing that there is not on overarching set of criteria for all basins.  While we are slowly merging towards this idea, as was shown by the change in tropical storm definition in the Southern Hemisphere a few years back, it may take a while.  Until that occurs, my opinion is that we should leave out specialized categories, such as severe tropical storm, super typhoon, and major hurricane from track maps. Thegreatdr 12:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks Nilfanion. íslenska hurikein #12 (samtal) 14:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Severe Tropical Storms 

message: Clicking through the basins I found the behaviour rather inconsistent:
* The Atlantic hurricane basin -> gives you article with the same name
* The Pacific hurricane basin -> redirects to Tropical cyclone
* The Pacific typhoon basin -> redirects to :Category:Pacific typhoons
* The North Indian cyclone basin -> redirects to :Category:North Indian cyclones
* The Southern Hemisphere tropical cyclone basin -> :Category:Southern Hemisphere tropical cyclones
Avoiding a discussion of wether a specific article should exist for all these basins, shouln't at least all the links on the project page direct you to the respective category? -- Koffieyahoo 01:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, never noticed that, but that's a good idea. --Hurricanehink (talk) 02:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the Structure/Basins section of the project page 

message: Here's some concrete examples of problems with the current dab arrangements, these should all be considered as examples.
*Alpha - Should Tropical Storm Alpha be a redirect to the 2005 storm or the location of the dab?
*Ana, Anna - Should these two similar names share a common dab page, confusion is very likely between these two names.
*Anita, Audrey- Should the TS XXX page be a redirect to the retired Hurricane XXX page or the location of the dab?
*Agnes, Katrina - Same as the previous case, but these two names have also been retired by the Australians. Does that make a difference?
My opinion is TS Alpha, Anita, Audrey, Agnes and Katrina should all be the locations of the dabs and not redirects to the Atlantic storm. Anna and Ana should share a common dab - at Ana as that one already exists. What do others think?--Nilfanion (talk) 15:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think Ana and Anna should be lumped together. We keep Lisa and Liza and Marie and Maria separate. I think we should do what is currently being done. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 15:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Confusion is likely between Maria and Marie, but someone looking for 2005's Maria is relatively unlikely to type Marie. However someone looking for 2001's Allison is quite likely to type Tropical Storm Alison. That is the sort of situation where a spelling redirect would be justified, which makes me think there should be a common dab in that case. Alfa/Alpha is a case in point of that. We really should have consistency.--Nilfanion (talk) 16:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation policy 

message: These may need some rethinking.  See discussion at Talk:2006_Atlantic_hurricane_season#2006_storm_names. — jdorje (talk) 17:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Storm names sections of season articles