Talk:Avril Lavigne/Archive 2

message: According to Idolator.com (http://idolator.com/tunes/sony-bmg/why-does-avril-lavignes-label-have-to-make-things-so-complicated-255274.php) there are two versions of The Best Damn Thing. The cheaper single disc edition is censored, the more expensive disc+DVD is uncensored. This should probably be added to the article. Also, since this page is protected it should have the big protected banner at the top. I'm at work and can't rememebr my password, someone want to take care of that please :) 198.6.46.11 14:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Censorship

message: she is extremely COOl
Have anyone realised that Avril Lavigne face has been transformating?? Look...compare her face on the Skaterboy video with the actual photo (the photo in the article). Armando.Otalk • Ev 23:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Avril Lavigne face

message: Avril said her last name is legally Lavigne Whibley, I'm sourcing it so quit changing it. If I have enough time I'll do a transcript of the radio show in case the file is deleted. 24.65.196.35 21:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Name 

message: The link for the "Keep Holding On" info is irrelevant. It's an older article that talks about her CD, acting career, and wedding. Any KHO info is much newer. For now I'm changing it to a link on her official website about the song, but I'll try and find an article talking about the radio station. Britishenglish 20:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keep Holding On 

message: Is it really relevant. I mean it's an encyclopedia article, not a news message board. I'd honestly leave this just for web-forums, not because this info being on Avril's wikipedia could give her a bad image for casual readers - it's just in my opinion not a solid piece of information to be added to person's biography. Iceness 17:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, but that incident has become rather infamous; leaving it out would be on par with not mentioning the anti-semitic tirade in Mel Gibson's DUI incident a while back, or not mentioning that Britney shaved her head. Gossipy? Yes, a little. But notable? Certainly - it keeps getting brought up in the press, and was a real occurence. For example, I noticed a lot of bloggers and press responding to her recent criticism of Britney Spears' breakdown noting that she herself spat in the face of paparazzi, referencing the exact same event you claim is too trivial for the article. If it keeps getting brought up in the press, it's worthy of inclusion. That's one of Wikipedia's NEUTRAL stances on information like that. Of course, I wouldn't expand it past what it has now; now it's the perfect length, just enough to describe the minor controversy and the incident in full without going overboard. But remove it entirely? No thanks. Runa27 16:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avril Spitting Info In Media Image 

message: I think we should nuke this entire article and pretend she never existed. TorbenFrost 20:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I personally get a kick of people who bother to go to artist's  wiki talk page (artist whom they don't like) and add something like *points above* to the discussion. Iceness 17:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A perfectly sane suggestion 

message: I strongly suggest to put a neutral point of view warning above this page, and a clean-up sign.. Two issues bug me with this article:
1. The lack of citations.
2. The selection and presentation of facts.
First, the lack of citations make the article very un-verifiable. For example, the article states that "The media have often compared Lavigne to Alanis Morissette". Comparing to isn't the same as making them (partly) equal. For example, I just read the article "A NIGHT OUT WITH: Avril Lavigne; Punk Rocker, Pop Queen And Tomboy All in One" from the NY Times of November 10, 2002. This article says that Lavigne plays music and has a look that once belonged to Alanis Morisette. It doesn't say anything about artistic quality.
Second, this article is a mess, and the selection of facts is dubious. The previous sample came from the part headlined by "2002-2003". "Image and Personal Life" is mostly about a fight with celebrity Hillary Duff, a tattoo, and wether she is punk or not. Instead of a well-balanced, cited piece on the critical discussion around her image, her musical quality, and her ever-changing image. There is a whole piece on her new 'feminine' look, and the discussion around that. But the citation used (nr 13), only points to a picture with small description of this look.
And critisism like this article in the Guardian is hardly represented in this Wikipedia-article: http://arts.guardian.co.uk/reviews/story/0,11712,1221071,00.html#article_continue
And then the article states: '"Once a "grungy" pop star, she showed her femininity in her new look, becoming the new face of Chanel in 2006.' Saying that Chanel equals femininity. Is that NPOV?
My suggestion: Put a big, fat warning above this article, and clean it up.
Make clear sections:
Intro
Professional Career (Chronologically. include CD's, awards, etc. State facts.)
Discussion about her image. (Well-balanced, cited review of the discussion around her fake or not image. With a well-weighted piece on the whole "punk or not"-discussion. (Who cares, besides punkers and wannabe-punkers?)
Tabloid attention. (Hillary Duff, the buttocks thing, etc)
Personal life. (Include "early life". And don't tell that she's married to Deryck Whibley trice, like it is now.)
--Looskuh 02:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to note, though, there WAS a surprising amount of controversy surrounding the "punk look, but doesn't really sound 'punk'" thing. She indeed kept a sort of punky look and (allegedly; I don't have a cite, but we should certainly find one, given the statement was in quotes!) talked of herself as a "punk" artist, but many felt she was more mainstream "pop-rock", which is what she now describes herself as. In fact, I hardly even keep up with the woman's music or whatever at all, and even *I* heard the "she's not 'punk' damnit! She just dresses like it!" argument more times than I can count a few years back when she first came out. The fact that we have a sourced statement where she explicitly says she's "not punk" shows that it was something that was questioned enough that she had to respond about it, actually. Keep that in, I say, so long as we can source EVERY quoted statement and just generally clean up that paragraph (why is punky in "punky alternative to Britney Spears" italicized, for one? And who exactly SAID she was marketed as the "punky alternative to Britney Spears"? Sources, please!). Runa27 16:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article needs a big clean-up

message: This is what a parragraf says (At the bottom of Image and Personal Life):
"Another thing to note, is she also stated she would never be in her underwear & show off her body in her videos - She actually did both of these things in the first 2 videos from her second album; she was in her underwear for the "Don't Tell Me" video, and in the video for "My Happy Ending" she wore a very short skirt, and performed a piroette, showing off her thighs & rearend."
I think that point of view is TOO subjective (to not mention awkward)!.. I Mean, She wasn't like showing herself off!.. No Way!.. Yes, she was wearing underwear in her video, but she wasn't like: "oh, look my boobs and my butt", if you read and understand the lyrics, you'll see there's a guy in the song trying to pester about having sex... And, in my happy ending, I do not think it was a veeery short skirt, i mean, it's larger than a cheerleaders!...
I didn't cut the parragraf because I wanted to discut this...
: I've removed it. It was unsourced and, as you said, too subjective. Serpent-A 08:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Too Subjetive Information" 

message: This is awkward. Can we come up with a more economical way of phrasing this?
:To be honest, this just smacks of puritanist censorship.  Wikipedia doesn't censor, if you're talking about her bottom, just write 'bottom'. Snowflake Sans Crainte 10:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. It's ludicrous - why not just say 'buttocks'? In fact, I think I will... ;) --Kurt Shaped Box 11:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "spatial gap between her two gluteal muscles" 

message: Would the person responsible for putting the Neutrality and Cleanup headers on the article please say why they did this?  It's not enough by far to put up these messages without saying why. Snowflake Sans Crainte 08:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality, Cleanup 

message: The new one is an official photograph. The other one is a blurry photograph taken from a concert. This one is better.--CyberGhostface 02:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't matter if it's "official", we have an adequate free image. This is about how blurry it would need to be to warrant having to use a fair use image.--Fallout boy 05:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then find a better fair use picture. Wikipedia articles should be of the highest quality, not what is merely 'adequate'. And quit vandalizing the other picture. It does have copyright status, even if you don't like it. How about we have a poll to see what others think?--CyberGhostface 10:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: We're not looking for "fair use" images. If you don't like the current GFDL image, then you should find a better free licensed image. As for "Wikipedia articles should be of the highest quality", we also have an equally (or more) important goal of making a free content encyclopedia, which means we only infringe on others' copyrights when necessary, not when it's aesthetically pleasing. Also, I was not "vandalizing" your image (making bad-faith accusations of vandalism is uncivil). The current picture is unlicensed and does not meet the fair use criteria.--Fallout boy 18:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was clearly labeled and given the proper copyright information. You trying to get it deleted and deleting the copyright information and then claiming there was none is just sour grapes on your part.--CyberGhostface 19:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: So in other words you say that its perfectly legal to have the better pic, and the other one is blurry and non-ideal, yet we should keep the old one? Should I e-mail the administrators of the website to get permission? Would that make it better?--CyberGhostface 19:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just sent her website a message. And I did search on commons and found a better picture to use.--CyberGhostface 20:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Any picture used for the header must be licensed under a free license that allows commercial reuse and modification (simply getting permission to display it here is not enough). :Image:Avril Lavigne.jpg on the commons is copyrighted, unsourced, and unlicensed, and has been marked for speedy deletion from the commons.--Fallout boy 20:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: What I'm saying is that while I understand your preference, Wikipedia's fair use rules are very clear. If there is a free image and a non-free image, use of the free one is preferred. Fagstein 20:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I won't revert it any longer until I get permission from the official site. Is that ok?--CyberGhostface 21:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said before, simply getting permission to display it here is not enough. Any image must be licensed under a free license that allows commercial reuse and modification. If you're hoping to get :Image:Avrillavigneprofile.jpg under a free license, don't count on it. From Wikipedia:Finding images tutorial: "For example, news agencies have an excellent image database, but will give you the rights only if you pay a hefty fee. [...] Asking news agencies for free images is a waste of your and their time."--Fallout boy 22:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: If you can get them to release it under the GFDL then fine. But I don't think they're going to do that. Fagstein 14:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pic 

message: Which pic do you think is better suited for the main article?
*Avril Lavigne Geneva June 09 2005
*Avril profile
:Avril profile--CyberGhostface 11:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't an argument over which photo is more aesthetically pleasing. :Image:Avrilprofile.jpg is a copyright violation.--Fallout boy 11:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because there is an alternative doesn't mean it violates any copyrights nor does it warrant a deletion as I could use it for some other use.--CyberGhostface 11:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having a free alternative is exactly what makes this a copyright violation. Refer to Wikipedia:Image_copyright_issues_for_dummies: "For this reason, free (as in speech) content is always preferred over un-free or restricted content. Wikipedia does allow fair use content to some extent, but only when it is not possible to create or obtain a free alternative." There are no other uses for this image, fair use media may only be used in article namespaces.--Fallout boy 12:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poll 

message: I sent an e-mail to the webmistress of Alavigne.com. Her disclaimer reads "All graphics were created by me, Natasha unless otherwise credited. Do not reproduce without expressed permission." I sent her the recommended template e-mail. I received her written permission. I'm going to wait a little, and then I'm going to replace the new images with the proper identification.--CyberGhostface 23:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which new images are we talking about here? :Image:Avrilprofile.jpg, or some other stuff? --Kurt Shaped Box 00:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't found the image yet, but no, its not Avrilprofile. It'll probably be in the Alavigne.org photo gallery in the high quality section.--CyberGhostface 01:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: New picture is up. For the record, any picture from Alavigne.org can be used now if you want to change it to something else.--CyberGhostface 23:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Images--Please Respond 

message: Please do not change any of the "Worldwide Sales" numbers unless you can include a source for it, it has been changing back and forth a lot recently and the article is lacking citations.
--Nabber00 06:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worldwide Sales Numbers 

message: Someone keeps adding a statement that Avril is hyperactive.  This is not true.  The citation points back to a satirical newspaper, it is a joke.  Please do not add this in the future and remove it if you see it.  --Nabber00 05:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's false by the simple fact that the claims made in this student 'newspaper', if it can even be called that, are not backed up by a single reputable website.  As for good sources, reliable news sites, reliable medical sites, reliable biographical sites and so forth are good sources.  Some badly-written, student parody is not a good source.  It's not reliable - hell, it states for itself that it's untrue.  If that's not a big enough indicator for you, I've got some magic beans to sell... Snowflake Sans Crainte 21:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Look, if it was even remotely likely to be true we'd have heard about it from somewhere other than some fictional newspaper.  As it is, we've not heard of it anywhere reputable so it's not going in the article. Snowflake Sans Crainte 00:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Where? When?  What programme?  Unless it can be cited, hearsay isn't good enough.  Snowflake Sans Crainte 13:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyperactivity 

message: since when has Avril sister been Called Charlotte....if this is an information site some people may wanna get there info right.
and her names Michelle Lavigne.Avril-fan-KT 22:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avril's sister 

message: I've moved this page back to Avril Lavigne from Avril Lavigne Whibley. Please do not move it again without first discussing it. If you check the news sources, she does not use that name, and still uses her maiden name. -- Fuzheado | Talk 15:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved back 

message: I have decided to add the NPOV onto the top of the page considering I saw some talk about it here and upon reading the article I see the article leaning more towards a fan edited article Satanical Eve 05:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV (moved from top, see NPOV below) 

message: Can the user who've put the tag can give his explanation here. I don't see any recent explanation of any NPOV violation. Looks mostly neutral.--JForget 18:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a note at the top of this page, it's easy to miss. I'm gonna move it down to the bottom, it's now above your comment. I don't agree with the reason for the tag being there, by the way. —B33R Talk • Contribs  20:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your comments.  I'm sure those of us who have worked on this article appreciate your efforts to rub a couple of braincells together long enough to type such verbose criticism.  I applaud your efforts but must ask that you provide more substance to your claims next time. --Snowflake Sans Crainte 18:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Wouldnt it be better if there were better images of Avril Lavigne on the page...one of her as we all used to know her from the let go/UMS era and one of her now with blonde hair? also im pretty sure this page doesnt mention Avril Lavigne leaving New York after being unhappy singing songs given to her and eventually was given the chance to go to Los Angeles to have a bit more creative freedom as she wanted to be a writer aswell as a singer...i think this is an importnat thing that should be mentioned? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Muse666 (talk • contribs) 18:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IMAGE

message: Where is this all coming from? It reads like a book, not like an encyclopedia. Who put it in there, where is it coming from.... and who's in for cleaning it up? :) --Looskuh 14:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Let Go'-section 

message: "Kurt Shaped Box" gave the excuse that she messes around on the drums on her live sets, so "Drums" was included in her instruments played. Well, in comparison, Kurt Cobain (who is referenced in his/her nick name) also "messed" around on the drums, it's mentioned in Heavier Than Heaven the biography of Kurt Cobain. I can type out the quote if you want. But Cobain's Wikipedia entry DOES NOT list him as a drummer, so I do not see why Lavigne is classes as playing drums and Cobain is not, if they both take the drum set during live sets. Speedboy Salesman 14:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: She's not a drummer

message: Avril's gonna be in this manga called Make 5 Wishes75.26.194.14 03:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: really? where did you hear that? Think outside the box 09:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I read about this a while back and looked up sources. I'm not sure if it's worth including in the article until its release, anyway. Source 1: The Beat, Source 2: Random House Catalog — bravepower 02:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  manga 

message: Anyone actually have a clear date of birth for Avril ? I was going to repair the page as it currently has a few variations of her dob and has her age listed in the infobox. but I cant find any 100% proof of the dtae and year. celebrities eh.   MBlue2020 22:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of Birth 

message: Remember the free mall tour she did? What year was that? I went to the one in Calgary, but forgot what year it was. --WestJet 17:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mall Tour

message: SHE "DONT" PLAY this instruments,
Avril ONLY singer,
and she is POP and POP ROCK music"
:Avril does play both drums and the guitar.  She does so on either her 'My World' DVD or on some of the videos from her website, for example. I forget which of the two I saw her do this on but it's one fo those, so if you're unconvinced the first place to look would be her website. --Zoe.R 18:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I may add up that on a live show on Much Music she also played the piano on Slipped Away (although there were no video I think for that song)--JForget 19:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drums?,Piano?,Guitar????????? 

message: Could someone explain to me what the hell "ZooCustoms Ranch" is and how someone can be born "in" it?
70.49.28.219 11:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like a piece of vandalism that has been overlooked. I've removed it. --Kurt Shaped Box 17:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "ZooCustoms Ranch"

message: Someone mentioned it in the archives, but Avril was born in Belleville, Ontario, and moved to Napanee at the age of 5. http://www.canadacool.com/COOLFACTS/ONTARIO/NapaneeAvrilLavigne.html I personally dislike her, so I am not going to put the effort into changing it, but as a native of Belleville I would like to see it changed. Matt d84 17:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Her birthplace is regularly corrected but it taken only a matter of minutes before someone who thinks they know better comes along and puts Napenee in there again.  I'm getting sick of it and considering putting in a comment into the code to try to explain about Napenee but if I'm honest, the people who keep doing this wouldn't read it anyway.  --Zoe.R 13:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Napenee is mentioned in the first paragraph of the biography.  I've expanded that a little (and I've just remembered that I've not cited the reference so I'll have to go back to it in a sec) but it was already there before I started editing.  It may warrant further expansion (in fact, the whole biography section seems woefully small) but that's all I've got time for at the moment.  --Zoe.R 17:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Place of Birth

message: io:Avril Lavigne  - thank you,:io:User:Joao Xavier 12:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please add the link to Ido Wikipedia

message: I just want to change it to "currently set for release in April 2007".  Just remove the 17th and I don't see why this article should be so based on the US, Canadian or Mexican release date...
--Mpassman 13:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed and duly edited.  --Zoe.R 17:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Best Damn Thing

message: The information box and biography section disagree on her name.  I should have thought that was important.  Arguably more important than the prominently featured fact that photos of her have appeared in Maxim.  :raised eyebrows: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KD Tries Again (talk • contribs) 15:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does the bio disagree with the info box?  I don't see it, all I see is the biography section missing out her middle name, as is commonplace in English.  Her full name is established in the introduction and therefore doesn't need reiterating elsewhere.  --Zoe.R 17:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Her name? 

message: The section on her Movie career states that "Avril Lavigne made her film debut in the animated film Over the Hedge" however here Filmography shows other wise. In fact the Movie career then says "her third project is Fast Food Nation" which her Filmography says was her first roll, so which is it?
On another note, the Trivia says "Avril appears on the cover of Lucky magazine" haven't loads of people, why is this note worthy? I was going to remove it but it could be important just worded wrong. ≈ Seraph 23:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Filmography Vs Movie Career 

message: Avril Lavigne is listed as "Canadian-born".  That she is, but she is also Canadian.  That would be more accurate.  The fact that she lives part of the year (or even most) in the U.S. does not cancel her citizenship.  Madonna and Gwyneth Paltrow, who usually live in the U.K., are not referred to as "American-born".  Thanks.
70.54.10.19 00:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Changed. --Kurt Shaped Box 00:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citizenship 

message: In the "Personal Life" section it says:
"....she has bought a house in Beverly Hills.[26]"
Well, according to a blog cited elsewhere (for the Napanee pizzeria naming a pizza after her), Avril and Deryck Whibley have now listed that Beverly Hills house up for sale and have bought a bigger house in Bel-Air (the same house used in the MTV reality show "Meet the Barkers"!). :)
Source: http://avrillavigne.bloggergirl.com/2007/04/avril-deryck-buy-new-house.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.15.63.51 (talk) 19:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avril Bought Another New House 

message: Please leave it like this.Pop rock 'My Happy Ending','Complicated' Pop punk 'Everything Back But You' , 'He Wasnt' and Alternative rock 'Losing Grip' and 'Unwanted'.Those are just samples and there's a lot more pop punk and alternative rock songs.She is NOT teen pop.Her music mixes teen pop with other musical styles it's not actualy teen pop like KElly Clarkson and Ashlee Simpsons.
::1)Do you really know what is ALTERNATIVE rock?? avril is all but not alternative 1)some songs are "punk-pop" but the word "punk" near avril lavigne is so wrong 3)yes mix teen-pop with other genres, but she coul be considered more "teen-pop" than "punk-pop" she's music is nearest at KClarkson than green day/offspring... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zagozagozago (talk • contribs) 13:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genre 

message: Someone reverted the article to an older version, for some reason. I've restored the last good current version. --Kurt Shaped Box 14:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old revision - just FYI