Talk:Martial arts

message: Is this article really a religion based article.  Seems a bit of a stretch.Peter Rehse (talk) 00:52, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: WTF!? I hadn't noticed, or at least paid attention to, that before. I go further than considering it a stretch, I find the notion absurd. This is not a religion based article! Sure, some martial arts have some connections to religion, but...--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 19:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: So do we keep or delete that WikiProject - I would be happy getting rid of it.Peter Rehse (talk) 19:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep or delete the mention/inclusion of this article as being part of the WikiProject, you mean? I'm all for deletion.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 20:40, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I mean and done.  It did bother me.Peter Rehse (talk) 20:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Religious?

message: I think the entire external links section should be removed.  None of them are general enough to reflect the article and the one that is - seems nothing but a forum.Peter Rehse (talk) 03:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good Idea, it's forever being clogged up with spam --Natet/c 11:53, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: martial arts have never been more popular. hollywood action blockbusters featuring acrobatic fight scenes like the matrix and charlie`s angels have been hugely successful;and the popularity of  martial  arts films  from hong kong.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.16.163.211 (talk) 18:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  introduzir em portugues 

message: So it almost seems silly to boil down striking based martial arts into "punching" "kicking" and "other". It's unsourced to boot. I have the same problem with the grappling ones. Especially since BJJ comes directly from Judo how can they be in different catagories? I also think that it seems silly because there are throws in wrestling and BJJ but they aren't in the throwing catagory. Judo is not a "throwing" art since you can win by pin or submission. 
Pinning also redirects to grappling hold which is a generic term for something that isn't neccesarily a pin. And it's all unsourced. I think you will find that these arts can't be broken down into different catagories because they are all very much the same just with different rule sets and/or gear. The holds are largely the same and applicable from one to the next as far as bjj, catch/submission/freestyle wrestling, Sambo, and Judo. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the idea in the article is by way of example rather than classification.  Perhaps that should be clarified.Peter Rehse (talk) 00:26, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  By Technical Focus 

message: Why cant we put that National Defense University (U.S. DoD) has a program in Jujutsu under law enforcement and military?  Its cited and relevant.  I can see not putting the school the use but at the very lease National Defense University using Jujutsu should stay.  Thoughts?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emery80 (talk • contribs) 13:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: How was it sourced? The law enforcement/military section needs more sourcing in general, as well as some grammatical fixes. Jodayagi (talk) 06:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Defense University 

message: The "folk styles" sub-section needs to be re-written somehow. Decide whether it's about folk wrestling or just "folk fighting styles" in general. And in either case, the entire first paragraph has to go. Saying "there are these forms of wrestling here and those forms there" does nothing for the article. If anyone wants a list of folk wrestling styles, they can easily find it in the folk wrestling article or even the list of martial arts. What's more, malla-yuddha is not necessarily Dravidian and there are separate articles for pehlwani and pahlavani so there's no need to put them together and call it "Indo-Persian". Morinae (talk) 16:24, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly that second sentence is from hell itself.  I must say I have never had an issue with any of your edits - please give it a try and let's see what we come up with.  My feeling is that the gist of the first sentence should be maintained - with both folk wrestling and stick fighting part of folk styles.  We do not necessarily have to include all these examples since as you mentioned there is the main folk wrestling article.Peter Rehse (talk) 16:39, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow that was fast - it reads much better now.Peter Rehse (talk) 16:43, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Folk styles 

message: A couple of Ip editors have recently been persistently adding Jonathan Bluestein's (Wikipedia editor ) book to the Further Reading section of this article (indeed, it seems likely that this section was only added for the purpose of including this book). Bluestein is not a noted writer on the martial arts (his only previously published work  appears to be an article in Deep Water Magazine (which accepts public submissions)). The book itself is self-published, making it unreliable as a source, and per Wikipedia:Further reading, books which would not constitute reliable sources should not be used in Further Reading sections (exceptions are made, but this is not in any way a historically important publication, discussed extensively in the article, or a scientific paper).
Personally I have strong suspicions that this is an attempt at bookspamming, especially given Bluestein's numerous attempts elsewhere to gain coverage of his book. I'm in danger of getting into an edit war regarding this, so am bringing it here for discussion. My recommendation is to remove the Further Reading section entirely, but failing that, it should be restricted to notable, reliably published books on the subject of martial arts in general. Yunshui 雲水 10:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed the Bluestein book again. Fails WP:SELFPUBLISH since the author is not an  established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." The title was originally added with an edit summary calling it a "notable work" but there is no evidence to substantiate this claim. No opinion on whether the article needs a further reading section, but agree with User:Yunshui on the criteria for selection if there is such a section. Meters (talk) 17:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: And yes, I now realize that the book is not just an e-book, but there's no way to change the edit summary I left when I removed the book form the article. Meters (talk) 17:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This is clearly bookspamming and assumptions of good faith aside - of a persistent and trying to be clever nature.  That said the whole section should in my opinion be removed.  Only two of the contents (one general for Chinese martial arts, the other for Japanese) come close to being general enough but they still belong in their respective wiki articles rather than here.  The others are even more specific.  The martial arts article is just too broad in nature and like an External Links section, the further reading section just invites Me Too cruft.  We saw that clearly with the first few edits after this section was created.Peter Rehse (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further reading section 

message: I added a little bit of clarification to the section on Martial Art Fraud as it referenced the Dan system of Judo but in truth that did not leverage the rainbow of colors as some of the more modern martial arts do now.  That really came into prevalence when the more competition oriented martial arts hit the United States and then flowed back to Japan.    I don't think that is contraversial in any way but I am looking for some exact references I can put in to support that!  Thank you Alex Jackl (talk) 06:36, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your changes are fine but I don't think the use of colored belts originated in the US (http://judoinfo.com/obi.htm says 1935 Europe) but Japan did have white, brown and black before then and also the red/white for the really higher ups.  Judo in Japan was certainly not the driving force for the introduction of the rainbow.Peter Rehse (talk) 08:09, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  After doing as little research you are correct- first references I could find where actually in Europe not America.  Thanks for the clarification. Alex Jackl (talk) 04:19, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colored Belts 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: From the description/definition, I see nothing to exclude firearms.  In   fact, archery is included.  But if fire-arm skill is covered, then it should be discussed.  If it isn't, something in the definition or discussion should be written to exclude it. 37.99.46.107 (talk) 12:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  firearms 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: 'The Real Goal Is Not Merely To Know Of Or To Have Simply Acquired A Functional Technique, It Is To Truly Understand The Technique, Comprehending It, To Such A Degree Where It Flows Forth Naturally With Intuition And Wisdom, Then Exponentiates.' VerifyTruth927 (talk) 19:56, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technical Art 

message: Pangration is the first historically documented martial art. The first mention of Pangration was made in the Orphic texts between 12,000 – 4,000 BC! (verse 586 Orphic Texts)
"This Pangratio gave to old Heracles, a silver krater as a prize for Pangration, a silver krater of many varieties".
”Αυτάρ Παγκράτιοιο δωκεν γέρας Ήρακληι, αργύρεον κρητηρα ως βραβείον δια το Παγκράτιον, κρατήρα αργυρούν πολυποίκιλον“.  Orphic Texts, verse 586 
According to the verse, Herakles was therefore given a silver prize for his performance in the Pangration. This report certifies that at that time the Pangration did not simply exist, but high performance in it could be evaluated with specific criteria and awarded with a prize of monetary value. Orpheus lived before the Trojan War which dates back to around 3000 BC. So the text is considered more ancient.
Based on these reports, Pangration is the oldest scientifically recorded martial art.
Pangration was considered the best competition in the ancient Olympic Games Philostratos describes it as "the best in Olympia" («το εν Oλυμπία το κάλλιστον»).  s. Arrhichion, Author: Philostratus of Nervian, Pictures A, Book B, wikisource https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/Εικόνες_Α΄/Βιβλίον_β/ς  Pangration was introduced to the Olympic Games in the year 648 BC. The numerous ancient vase paintings suggest a complete martial art, with kicks, holds, punches, wrestling techniques, boxing, throws. Many of Pagratio's techniques are similar to techniques found in today's martial arts. Aristotle said: "Good for wrestling is he who is able to squeeze and hold his opponent; good for boxing is he who can repel his opponent with blows. Anyone who is capable of both is good for pangration " ("ὁ δὲ θλίβειν καὶ κατέχειν παλαιστικός, ὁ δὲ ὦσαι τῇ πληγῇ πυκτικός, ὁ δ’ ἀμφοτέροις τούτοις παγκρατιαστικός"). The sources of the historical times mentioned in the pankration cover the period from the 8th century BC to the 12th century AD.  Hellenic Federation of Pangration - The history of Pangration. https://pangration.org/index.php/istoria-tou-athlimatos   
The army of Alexander the Great practiced Pangration, as ancient Greeks used to do. During his campaign in the depths of Asia to India where Alexander the Great arrived, in the 4th century BC, in addition to the many Greek cultural elements and sciences that he spread in the areas he conquered, he also spread Greek sports and Greek games. Among these games was the Pangration which was used not only as a sport in the games but also as a martial art during the wars. However, pankration was more than just an event in the athletic competitions of the ancient Greek world; it was also part of the arsenal of Greek soldiers – including the famous Spartan hoplites and Alexander the Great's Macedonian phalanx. It is said that the Spartans at the Battle of Thermopylae fought with their bare hands and teeth once their swords and spears broke.  Philostratus, Gymnastikos 11   WIKIPEDIA Pankration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration#cite_note-7   Georgiou, Andreas V. "Pankration - A Historical Look at the Original Mixed-Martial Arts Competition". Archivedfrom the original on 30 January 2016. Retrieved 23 January2016.   Dervenis, Kostas (2007). The Martial Arts of Ancient Greece : Modern Fighting Techniques from the Age of Alexander. Nektarios Lykiardopoulos, Michael J. Pantelides. Rochester: Inner Traditions International, Limited. pp. chapter 2. ISBN 978-1-59477-740-0. OCLC 1085169623.    Pangration. The Olympic Games - The Martial Art of the Ancient Greeks, Lazaros E. Savvidis, Eleftheri Skepsis, 3rd edition, 2004.  Pankration is considered the precursor of today’s mixed martial arts cage competitions. Μany historians also contend that Pankration laid the groundwork for the development of Asian karate and kung-fu, as well as other fighting styles throughout the world. Studying the history of Ancient Greek Pankration brings to light the importance of Pankration as not only the Original MMA, but as the missing link in martial arts evolution, according to one of the pioneers of MMA, Jim Arvanitis  Jim Arvanitis, Pankration: The Unchained Combat Sport of Ancient Greece. MMA Origins – CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform; 1st edition (April 29, 2015).  79.167.195.6 (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I continue to oppose this text, which is based on both original research and unreliable sources, including primary references that do not support the actual text they are attached to, and the more modern but still unusable self published sources. - MrOllie (talk) 18:24, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pankration. The oldest historically documented martial art.