Talk:BDORT/Archive 6

message: Should edit be allowed during the mediation process? The mediation process was started on or before August 17th (based on the edit history for /Mediation on this page) and the edit history since then shows various efforts to create a stable version of the article until mediation was resolved. 
The argument for not allowing this is the difficulty it creates in resolving an ongoing dispute related to the article and this argument has some weight--other mediators have walked away from mediating this article, and making more work for the mediator may increase the difficulty in resolving an already difficult mediation. 
My argument, which is also discussed below, is that we should not effectively freeze edits to an article due to a content dispute between two editors. Pages should only be frozen during mediation  (if at all) for a limited period using a protected tag and a deadline set which is tied to specific goals that the disputing editors must achieve or see their case closed, to not waste the time of editors who want to fix the article and aren't aware of the 'informal freeze' on edits (since there is no policy stating that they cannot edit). Changes coinciding with mediation can be integrated into the article if they are still relevant to the current version or dropped if consensus has build against them through the normal editing process. 
Allowing edits should have the effect of getting more outside input into the article since most editors don't want to wade through a long mediation history to make contributions and this may also resolve some or all of the disputes that are being mediated. Antonrojo 14:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Antonrojo, I have no doubt that you mean well and you want this article, and WP in general, to become as well sourced, informative and objective as they can be. The situation here is that there is a fairly intense conflict, that has been  going on since the article was created. The conflict resulted in prologed edit warring that has driven at least two editors to leave WP. The solution that was agreed upon is to stop the edit warring and try mediation. The concept of mediation was that instead of making multiple conflicting edits and reversions per day or even per hour, we would try to agree in the Talk  page (or subpage) on a mutually acceptable version, and only then include the change in the article. This was and is the premise for mediation. If we start editing the article directly again, it will again become a free-for-all, a major time and energy drain for all involved, and a sore spot for WP as a whole. I think the bottom line is simple: either we mediate and agree on changes in a civil discussion on the Talk page before they are entered in the article, or we resort to the old free-for-all. I thought that decision was already made, but obviously we can revisit it at any time. Crum375 15:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you mean by 'quiet mediation'. If edit aren't allowed on the article at all it should be protected and if only edits of a specific type are allowed, this should be indicated by adding the mediation template to Talk, as well as in the article if an appropriate template exists since editors don't always read Talk when editing, to avoid wasting editors time. Note that this template states only that substantial edits should be avoided until editors have read the applicable talk page discussions, in other words that editors don't need to get involved in the mediation process to make changes. Antonrojo 15:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I am no expert on templates, if there is something that would be appropriate, then I would have no objection to it. I don't see however, how any editor could just start editing a contentious article that is undergoing mediation without instantly provoking mayhem. Yes, if you change a typo I can see it being 'safe', but I doubt there are many typos left. Anything else would step on some delicate issue that is under mediation and immediately disrupt the mediation process. I think the mediation is not between some specific parties with specific view points - it is intended for any or all editors interested in this article. If you would like to help, by all means join the mediation and feel free to voice your opinion on  any issue (or raise new issues). But if someone just makes arbitrary changes to the article at this time, it will be disruptive and will nullify the effect of the mediation process, IMO. Crum375 15:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to allow edits during mediation

message: Whiffle, your edits are not helping anything, and you've completely undone all the work done on making all the references fit into the correct citation method. I was only trying to make the references look right, and forgot to address the undoing of your edits (which only made the article more POV) I apologize for forgetting to address that, but your edits are only making the article worse. You need to discuss the drastic changes you're making before doing them, especially on a controversial article like this one. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if I messed up some of the refs. The article is too long, too convuluted, and too incomprehensible, however much your efforts over time has convinced you otherwise. You need fresh eyes whether you know it or not. If you're uncomfortable with that, then you're uncomfortable with that. I have no reason to trust your judgement over my own. Is that hard to follow or simply hard to accept? Whiffle 04:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? I've made perhaps 3-4 edits to this article, and they've all been minor outside of the references fixing (and you messed up all of the ref corrections, not just some of them). Perhaps you should do a little more research before you make comments such as this. Based on that, your own judgement comes into question. On top of that, you need to adjust your attitude if you're going to be working here on Wikipedia. Acting in a condescending manner toward others' opinions goes against the civility policy, and refusing to discuss anything before making sweeping changes to a controversial article goes against the etiquette policy. You need to be able to work well with others if you're going to be doing things here. If you can't abide by these policies, you'll likely cause more and more problems and eventually run into problems with the administrators or others. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion of cite ref corrections

message: Opinions differ, gentlemen and ladies. Try and keep up.
Night. Night. Whiffle 04:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Make Haste Slowly ? 

message: The article is now protected. Please work out your differences here and in mediation. -Will Beback 18:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the protection. Please edit with consideration for all viewpoints. -Will Beback 07:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Richard, nothing has been agreed to in the mediation process. Please refrain from editing the article while the mediation process is underway. Thanks, Crum375 03:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Richard, as you know, nothing whatsoever has been decided. If you can see me misreading my own words somewhere, please provide a link to my words, so we can discuss them. Thanks, Crum375 03:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes it must be a memory as well as a reading problem on my part. I can't for the life of me see or otherwise recall where I agreed to all the changes you just made in the article, including removing the NZ reference from the the lead, etc. Crum375 03:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The only changes I agreed to, were minor technicalities and included in other changes that you ignore. For example, regarding the Quackery reference, I agreed the specific linked page was wrong, but another link in the same site made the same point about quackery even stronger. You just removed the reference altogether instead of just fixing it. Hence you cannot just state that I 'agreed' to even that specific change. Can you point me to any of your changes that I actually agreed to? Crum375 04:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The changes that I agreed to, were only agreed to by me, to the best of my knowledge (like the better Quackery reference mentioned above), not by the others. Hence, I contend that at this point no changes have been 'agreed to' in the mediation. 'Agreement' by definition is by everyone. Crum375 04:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: I think it might be helpful if discussion preceded edit warring, and, hopefully, averted its necessity. Richard, would you care to make the case for your changes? TheStainlessSteelRat 04:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I understand you correctly, then, you are saying that when others disagree with you in discussion you are unwilling to accept that, and will rely upon your own interpretation and understanding to the exclusion of others, and act upon it by editing the entry accordingly. Is that understanding on my part correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 05:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have blocked both user:Crum375 and user:Richardmalter for edit warring. Protection of the page clearly isn't being productive either, so it seems like blocking is the way to go so minor, uncontroversial edits can be made. Cowman109Talk 05:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I've taken the liberty, then, of reverting to the status quo ante so that, in time, perhaps, a more measured discussion may follow. TheStainlessSteelRat 06:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotected