Talk:Berbers/Archive 2

message: According to what I know, Berbers were also present in ancient Egypt and maybe even before that time. They were referred to as Libyans. However genetic studies indicate that the Afro-Asiatic language spread out of Africa (probably present-day Sahara) by about 8,000 BC and then back to Africa from the Middle East. Could it have anything to do with the origin of the Berbers? --Orionix 23:54, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The ancient Libyans 

message: The complex origin of the Berbers has not yet been solved. We know that they are a physically diverse group of people who might date their origin to the Paleolithic. 
Genetically they are intermediate between Europeans and sub-Saharans and are therefore cannot be stereotyped as Caucasian. In skin color they vary from fair to very dark. 
The only Berbers who can pass for Caucasian are the ones of coastal Maghrib like the Rifians and Kabyles. However many others do not.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15204363
The paternal lineage (Y-chromosome) of northwestern Africans is 75% Upper Paleolithic east African in origin:
In NW African populations, an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in eastern Africa contributed 75% of the current gene pool. In comparison, 78% of contemporary Iberian Y chromosomes originated in an Upper Paleolithic expansion from western Asia, along the northern rim of the Mediterranean basin. Smaller contributions to these gene pools (constituting 13% of Y chromosomes in NW Africa and 10% of Y chromosomes in Iberia) came from the Middle East during the Neolithic and, during subsequent gene flow, from Sub-Saharan to NW Africa. Finally, bidirectional gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar has been detected: the genetic contribution of European Y chromosomes to the NW African gene pool is estimated at 4%, and NW African populations may have contributed 7% of Iberian Y chromosomes. The Islamic rule of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The high-resolution analysis of the Y chromosome allows us to separate successive migratory components and to precisely quantify each historical layer.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n4/002582/002582.html
It could be that the ancestors of the Berbers were from east Africa. Also the Berber language is a branch of the Afro-Asiatic super-language family which developed in east Africa and spread out to the Near East and then back to Africa through the shores of the red sea.
Also Christopher Ehret says that the language descended from the African coast of the Red Sea.
East Africans carry the paternal haplotype E3b which originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene. 
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40866/40866.html
Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup (which originated in west Asia), a group of L3 lineages (which originated in sub-Saharan Africa) characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans, suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10500 years ago in North Africa, and spread to neighbouring populations. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15180702
It is possible that the early Berbers were actually black Africans and even today many of them are "black" or brown to very dark skinned, especially the Siwa, Haratin and the Touareg of the Sahara. -- Orionix 06:33, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The Haratin are of course black; however, the Tuareg are not only Caucasian, but decidedly racist against the neighboring black populations.  The Siwis look pretty standard Mediterranean, judging by photos... but no doubt there is some variety in the population. Ehret thinks Semites and Egyptians originated on the African coast of the Red Sea as well, incidentally. - Mustafaa 17:15, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  A challenge to the Capsian theory 

message: The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region.
Many authors regard these people as physically akin to the Mediterraneans, hence the label of 'Caucasoids' (or European-like) generally attached to them. However, all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in anumber of body proportions.
From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. Now, as mentioned in Chapter 3, the fossil record tells of tall people with long and narrow heads, faces and noses who lived a few thousand years BC in East Africa at such places as Gamble's Cave in the Kenya Rift Valley and at Olduvai in northern Tanzania. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to Caucasoids of Europe and western Asia, as they usually are in literature.
Source:
The People of Africa (Peoples of the World Series) by Jean Hiernaux, pgs 42-43, 62-63 -- Orionix 18:44, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Very interesting.  I'm not really sure what to make of it, but it's certainly food for thought. - Mustafaa 22:15, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Upper Kenyan Capsian 

message: *I have taken out this : This view appears to be supported by a genetic study which concludes that their paternal lineage is probably predominantly east African in origin. This is usually taken to imply that the language was introduced from east Africa mainly by males, maybe with some degree of population change, no earlier than 15,000 years ago.
Nowhere in the external link it says that berbers came frome east africa 15 000 years ago, it says that their E3b (EM81) Y-haplotype is 15 000 years ago, and that the WHOLE E3b haplotype is 25ky ago. Since the "berber" EM81 is closer to the Neolithic (Middle eastener)  E-M78 , it is safe to say that Berbers came from the near-east and not from ethipia.
Ps : I have not yet begun deleting ;-) --Agurzil 16:08, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin

message: someone put a picture of "typical northern berber", northern berber is ambiguous, it could be a Rifain as it could be a mozabite, and we perfectly know that these two ethnics do not resemble each other physically.--Agurzil 12:56, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point.  But it would be nice to have a little picture gallery somewhere to give people an idea of the range of variation.  People hear that Berbers are indigenous to Africa and they end up assuming that they're black, which is of course usually far from the truth. - Mustafaa 18:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes I agree, Also the better would be to put pictures containing many people not just one per picture.. we'll avoid all the peoples with agendas. --Agurzil 19:15, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you do to add a comment about the copyright of a picture, I have made one (Distributions of berbers in NW Africa) and I don't want it to be deleted!--Agurzil 19:15, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags. - Mustafaa 22:39, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: hi mostafa, As you can see, I have added some pictures and text, I also removed the a part that speaks about the same subject as the one I put: "Subdivision of berbers according to their genotype and phenotype".--Agurzil 09:42, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good stuff!  Those pictures make a big difference. - Mustafaa 18:49, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  When going to the touareg wiki-page, I discovered that they are "west-african"! they appearance might be closer to them but they are not west african! is Dieudoné west african or french? I really doubt... --Agurzil 06:43, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures of Berbers

message: I removed a paragraph from the introduction, Berbers mixed with so many groups yes, like any other people, But that paragraph suggests that Berber-speaking groups like kabyles or tuaregs have at least 30% arab blood! those groups have more european or subsaharan input (depending on the ethnic) than saoudian blood!--Agurzil 07:05, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabian Admixture

message: Maghreb does not sound very encyclopedic and is restricted in time (Roughly from the middle age untill now). Also, it is Arabocentrist and excludes culturally the Berbers (Maghrebi is an arab dialect) from Northwest Africa.
To summarize the thing: Berbers existed in the "maghreb" long before the "maghreb" did exist.--Agurzil 19:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tamazgha, Maghreb...etc VS Northwest Africa 

message: Is there another on Wikipedia, or an external link, that we could put in the beginning of the genetics section? I have very little background in this area and therefore can make almost no sense of what I'm reading, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Maybe we could help us non-geneticists out by adding a link to a cursory introduction so these facts can be more meaningful?
Thanks. Billy P 15:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetic Language 

message: Could someone with more expertise address the definitions, differences, and political correctness of the Blue Berber, Brown Berber, etc. nomenclature?  --Anne M. Daniels
: I'm afraid I've never heard of this.  Can you elaborate?  It sounds interesting. - Mustafaa 00:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I really don't know that much, which is why I'd like someone else to say more.  However, I've heard different groups referred to as Blue Berber or Brown Berber, especially in the context of Morocco.  I think these are fairly commonly used terms, but I'm unsure of the history and technical usage of them. --Anne M. Daniels 02:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm guessing "Blue Berber" would be the so-called "Blue Men" of the Sahara, tribes who habitually wear indigo-dyed clothes which rub off on the skin. Google rather suggests that "Brown Berber" is some kind of a sewing-related technical term. - Mustafaa 23:12, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nomenclature 

message: its really no mystery the berbers are some 81% african simple as that some whites and arabs came down breed with them but its as simple as that what so hard to understand y the "mysterious mystery",just as some mediterranians have darker skin and curly to kinky hair theyre part black the human populations have never been seperated for very long and have always intermixed and changed as a result of migration,some cultures developed certain technologies as a nessecity to adapt to their environment  but essentially people possess very slight diffrences beneath the superficial appearence.
What´s your point ?
:The same writer added "Berber North Africans are all of Negroid origin" to Negroid, and it's still there. He's pushed this viewpoint in a number of articles including Caucasoid.--JWB 18:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see it anymore, neither in Negroid nor in Caucasoid. — mark ✎ 19:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "whats the big mystery" 

message: Didn't the Vandals and/or Visigoths intermingle with the North African population after 410 A.D.?
* those are considered to be east germanic peoples. would "intermingle' in this case mean interbreed? possibly via rape? 
i'll have to do some research on this. 
Gringo300 07:57, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germanic mixture