Talk:Macedonian alphabet

message: I have a question, raised by a discrepancy between the Macedonian alphabetical order reported in this article, and the canonical order used in articles about individual letters (e.g. the article for "Gje").  Specifically, in the order as shown, Gje and Kje do not appear directly following Ge (or Ge-with-upturn, if it were present in Macedonian) and Ka, as one might expect, and as is reported in the canonical order.  I'm guessing this is just an idiosyncracy of the language, but perhaps an error has been made?  Or perhaps the error is actually in the table used in the letter articles?  It looks like the primary Cyrillic alphabet article has an order consistent with the Macedonian order listed here. Rmharman 22:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  

message: The last section states that Karadžić's alphabet may have been based in some respect on distinctly Macedonian resources (eg. Krste Misirkov). Is this merely speculation on the part of an editor, or is this a documented opinion? If the latter, then it needs a source, and the language should be toned down a tad. I detected a little bit of a sneer in the way "Serbianization" was italicized. I dunno. Maybe I'm just reading more into than there is. I know South Slavic languages can be a sensitive subject. Anyway, I'm putting up the  tag, and adding fact notes. --Yossarian 30px| 09:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, the way I read it, it wasn't suggesting that Karadzic based his alphabet on Misirkovs (from a historical point of view I suspect this may be impossible, it was just trying to say that the Macedonian alphabet is not based on the Serbian alphabet, but more the writings of Misirkov. I've tightened up the wording and removed the tag, let me know what you think. - FrancisTyers · 10:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letters Unique 

message: Please read the reference by Stoyan Kiselinovski in the article to learn from a witness how under pressure from the Yugoslav minority and the Communist government of Yugoslavia, the "Macedonian language" was invented. In this process, many Bulgarians, like Venko Markovski, Stoyan Mikhailovski and others, participated, because such was the politics of the Comintern, and from above the Macedonisation of Bulgarian language and history in this part of Bulgaria was ordered. Those Committees for Macedonian alphabet had the venue Sofia, Bulgaria, which is not mentioned in the article but is a solid fact. Another fact is that "Macedonian language" came into existence only because the Bulgarian government at this time (1945) was composed mostly from traitors who were under direct orders from Soviet Union.
Also, read http://www.mak-truth.com/m4_marko.htm to see how one of the principal inventors of the "Macedonian" language, Venko Markovski, regards himself and the language he speaks as Bulgarian.
Venko Markovski's judgment on the legitimacy of Tito and Kolishevski's Macedonian People's Republic, is poignantly illustrated by the following passage from his text
"Кръвта вода не става" 1981, p287 
"The entirety of the serious scholars via different ways, have arrived at the conviction that Macedonia, Thrace, Moesia and Dobrudzhia, towns and villages alike, are inhabited by Bulgarians; that the national awareness of these Bulgarians is neither Macedonian, nor Thracian, nor Moesian, nor Dobrudzhian, but Bulgarian; that the language of these Bulgarians is neither Macedonian, nor Thracian, nor Moesian, nor Dobrudzhian, but Bulgarian; that the literature of these Bulgarians is neither Macedonian, nor Thracian, nor Moesian, nor Dobrudzhian, but Bulgarian; that the history of these Bulgarians living in Macedonia, and in Thrace, and in Moesia, and in Dobrudzhia, is not a separate one such as - Macedonian, Thracian, Moesian, Dobrudzhian history, but a common, Bulgarian history; and that Macedonia, Thrace, Moesia, Dobrudzhia are the geographic expression of the Bulgarian territory"
--Lantonov 14:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How was the "Macedonian language" invented 

message: Hi, I am translating the English article into Bulgarian. Could anyone please help me with the image of the handwritten version of the Macedonian alphabet? I would like the Bulgarian article to look as close as possible to the English one. Thanks in advance! Regards --StMt 22:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you would like to upload the image onto the Bulgarian page, I think an administrator from the Bulgarian Wikipedia can help you get that done. Cheers BalkanFever 01:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The handwritten alphabet 

message: Obviously nobody saw my previous suggestion up there, so let me spell it out:
*
Which wiki-translates to the NPOV:
What do you say? NikoSilver 12:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I commented on this one earlier already. . Nothing much to add now really. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to my understanding of this, FP has begrudgingly accepted something along the lines of this, leaving BF as the sole conscientious objector. Someone go ahead and add it so we can wrap this up already. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 13:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that I don't see how that wording achieves anything of what you guys want. It does not suggest to the reader that this Macedonian is not the only Macedonian, and that the hotel maids in Thessaloniki don't speak it (Niko's worry about those naive Mimilanders). Sure, that's just as well, it shouldn't, because there's no need of doing so anyway. But if it doesn't do that, then why do you want it? This wording helps nobody, it introduces "Slavic" just as a useless appendix of random information. In fact, the only satisfaction you can get from it is for demonstrating you have again successfully left your scent mark on a territorial outpost article ("see, you can't use the M word without us forcing you to go through some silly contortions just to acknowledge we are still here.") Silly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yer, whatever. So AWN2's dablink it is, then? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 14:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with AWN2 and BF that the current version is just fine. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 14:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Sorry -- don't like that one. The term being 'confused' in this article is not 'Macedonia', but 'Macedonian' (in terms of language/alphabet). An article on the Macedonian language/alphabet does not need a disambiguation on everything Macedonian. If were are going to disambiguate, it should be between the Macedonian language and the Ancient Macedonian language. AWN2 (talk) 13:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Before this all gets personal (again), what I think FP☼ is saying is that we should not be disambiguating just for the sake of disambiguating. Disambiguation is warranted where there is a genuine possibility of good faith users/editors being confused. I find it difficult to believe that someone looking for things in geographic Macedonia (such as, say, Thessaloniki or Bitola) being confused by an article on the Macedonian alphabet! Again, I believe that the current wording/hyperlinking requires no disambiguation. However, if someone genuinely believes that an uniformed reader could be confused between the (Cyrillic) Macedonian alphabet and the (non-existent) ancient Macedonian alphabet (and I accept that this is possible), then there may be a case for... a short, neutral disambiguation between the Macedonian language and the Ancient Macedonian language. AWN2 (talk) 14:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Go for it. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 14:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

text: But no-one here genuinely believes that. BalkanFever 14:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Speak for yourself. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 14:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

text: They mustn't be "professional" enough for FP's Anatolian standards. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 11:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As usual, most of the links in that list are false – either not containing the exact phrase at all, or not applying it to the language but the ethnicity, or using it as an accidental syntactic collocation. In fact, several of the pages in that list are perfect counterexamples to your claim. One would have thought your previous experience with google searches had led you to wisen up. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Σε μένα μιλάς; ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 11:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Translación, por favor. BalkanFever 11:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Traducción, quieres decir. Y por supuesto que no es greco; es griego. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 11:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Y yo no hablo castellano (y griego). Traduis-le dans le français ou l'anglais. Icã tu armãneashti. Li v slovenščini. Ili vo naši.  BalkanFever 07:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If I wrote it in a language you don't understand, then it obviously wasn't intended for you. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 07:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No shit. It was probably some form of insult directed at FP. BalkanFever 07:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess you'll never know. And what's it to you, anywho? He's a big boy; he can look after himself. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 07:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Actually, it just said "are you talking to me?" - well, not very much, it was really more directed at Niko of course. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought so, but the indentation threw me off. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, I liked your older sig better. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been in two minds about it, actually. Τώρα είναι πιο αρχαιοπρεπές· λέω να το κρατήσω. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To be truly archaeoprepes, shouldnt it be ΚΕΚΡΟΦΣ? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? Φ was as much a Greek innovation as was Ψ, ¿no? I guess if you wanted to go really Phoenician you could write it ΚΕΚΡΟΠΣ or even ΚΕΚΡΟΠΜ, but it looks like something my six-year-old niece would come up with. I'm an æsthete, remember? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 11:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  "ΦΣ" would have been the orthography of glorious 5th-cent. BC Athens . Wouldn't Kekrops take particular pride in that form of writing? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He might have done, if he were around in the fifth century BCE to see it. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

text: ¡Да! Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: daß Mischung von spanisch und kyrillisch sein lustig :) BalkanFever 10:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion renewed

message: Since Macedonian orthography and Macedonian alphabet cover pretty much the same ground, I think they ought to be merged.  While a case can be made for merging the alphabet into the orthography (the opposite way from how I've tagged it) the orthography page is woefully undeveloped as it is anyway.  Thoughts? — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the orthography article is quite new, I think we should just wait a while for it to be improved. When I have time, I'll contribute, and I'm sure other Macedonian users will too. Russian alphabet and Russian orthography is a good model. BalkanFever 02:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh shit!  I didn't even notice that. I think I just bit a new article.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 03:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL! No harm done :D BalkanFever 03:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: There is problem with the maps in this article on "Macedonian Language".
The maps depict certain pronunciations of letters in regions where currently the Slavic (FYRO)Macedonian language is not spoken, i.e. northern Greece, and in particular the northern Prefecture of Greece called Macedonia.
The maps in question, albeit linguistic in intention, are exact copies of the nationalist-driven maps of Macedonia (the country), to depict parts of northern Greece as part of (FYRO)Macedonia.
In particular, the maps supposedly depict the usage/spread of the phoneme kj (Ќ), and the phoneme gj (Ѓ) in the Macedonian language. I ask how can these maps depict a cross-border pronunciation of these phonemes all the way down to the limits of the north of central Greece, when slavic "Macedonian" is not spoken in Greece, but universally Greek? Greeks do not speak any form or dialect of Bulgarian or its dialect, Macedonian. And even in the case that it may be argued these phonemes may be present in Greece or even in other Balkan areas, they are by no means due to influence of the 1944-created Macedonian language.
I suggest these maps are replaced with maps that clearly indicate the linguistic extent of the Macedonian Language, within the borders of the country in which the Macedonian language is spoken, and the pronunciations of this language thereof, for the sake of accuracy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellaivarios (talk • contribs) 23:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  MAPS ARE INCORRECT 

message: In comparing the IPA pronunciation in this article with the ones in the articles in other languages on Wikipedia, I notice 2 inconsistancies that the English Wikipedia is alone on, whereas the other articles I checked agree.  They are for the letter Љ and Х which in this article are labeled /lj/ and /x/ respectively.  This article in other languages seem to disagree, saying they are /ʎ/ and /h/ respectively.  Can we come to a concensus on the correct IPA pronunciation for how these letters are used in this language?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.53.72.254 (talk) 21:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA issues 

message: The accented letters Ѐ and Ѝ are not regarded as separate letters, nor are they accented letters (as in French, for example). Rather, they are the standard letters Е and И topped with an accent when they stand in words that have homographs, so as to differentiate between them (for example, "сè се фаќа" – se se fakja, "all may be touched").
Sorry, but this passage is ridiculous. "the accented letters are not regarded as separate latters" applies to French as well. "nor are they accented letters"? So the accented letters are not accented? This is a contradiction itself. In French accents mostly indicate that the words have homographs too like "à and a" (to and have). Pronunciation differences is only with è and e. --2.245.240.33 (talk) 01:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accented letters 

message: In Serbian and Macedonian print, the glyph for the small Б differs from most other cyrillic alphabets, cf. Be_(Cyrillic)#Form. Could somebody mend the table in Macedonian_alphabet#The_alphabet, please? In contrast, the box under Macedonian_alphabet#Cursive_alphabet shows the correct form.
--Knottel (talk) 10:17, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The letter small Б 

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thread_title:  External links modified