Talk:Inquisition

message: Is it possible to provide an entimated range of deaths from the whole series of historical Inquisitions added together?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.69.81 (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There are undocumented estimates of 40,000 over 400 years, or about 100 per year for 400 years.Santamoly (talk) 01:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death Toll 

message: An editor has deleted without comment this statement "In practice, the Inquisition would not pronounce sentence, but handed over convicted heretics to secular authorities." Since it was not footnoted, I didn't revert it. But it is true, of course, and needs reinsertion whenever someone can come up with a footnote. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 12:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a useful description of this procedure described in the Introduction to The Marrano Factory: the Portuguese Inquistion and its New Christians 1536-1765 at http://books.google.com/books?id=eG8xUFivagkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false .  There's enough text shown on line to read the complete Introduction including a description of the final disposition of cases. Santamoly (talk) 01:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the WHICH tag from that sentence, as it's answered in one of the citations, the other is a dead link, which I'll remove shortly. In the citation site, which is the Catholic Encyclopedia and the nations are listed in scattered places throughout the article.Wzrd1 (talk) 04:07, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I tried to tag the two dead links as dead, but don't know the proper syntax for it. Can someone kindly show me the CORRECT way to enter it?Wzrd1 (talk) 04:23, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Secular courts administered punishment

message: One paragraph says that the church felt threatened by what it perceived as the schism of the church. I'm not sure that the Protestants did not perceive this in a similar fashion. Luther felt (probably correctly at the time) that he had to take true believers away from the pollution of Rome. Henry VIII was just doing it for political reasons. In the case of the latter, he never thought of the result as any more than "The Catholic Church of England", a straight derivative of the RC Church. Student7 (talk) 18:28, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Wording

message: Yes Foxe wrote a book, sort of accurate by modern day standards and very pov in order to inflame public opinion against Catholics. The English business was more of a power struggle between factions as England often had up until about William and Mary or so. Putting a religious tinge on it, was simply their way of saying that the incumbent king was great or a louse. Easier if you can decide based on what church you attend instead of more complex factors! Neither side paid much attention to religious leaders abroad, much less the pope, or Martin Luther or anybody else. Not sure it should be featured here. More of a canard IMO. Student7 (talk) 21:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Revisionism at its best. If NEITHER side paid any attention to Martin Luther OR the Roman Catholic Church, England would t be overwhelmingly PROTESTANT. Pretty much ANYTHING written that survives today was POV, one way or the other. Neutrality wasn't rewarded, but condemned by BOTH sides. Indeed, at the time, condemning a sitting monarch was a death sentence, if one were in the same nation and probably even when abroad.Wzrd1 (talk) 05:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Foxe Book of Martyrs

message: Saying "although similar institutions existed in the Protestant church" is wholly inaccurate.
Nothing comparable existed. Wars between Protestant and Catholic states in the age of chivalry are not comparable to religious violence.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.219.109 (talk) 18:38, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there was the Star Chamber which was smaller in scope. Witch-hunts were quite large and not quite as focused since they were essentially run by lay people, but mostly Protestant, I think. Student7 (talk) 02:59, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Inquisition was a religious inquiry, under Catholic authority, to identify spiritual heresy.  That's not the same as a civil inquiry by "lay people" to identify civil misconduct such as orgy sex, cannibalism, or infanticide.  You're trying to equate apples and oranges. Santamoly (talk) 17:03, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Witch hunts were spiritual in nature. Witches, empowered by the devil, were believed to be able to influence others from a distance (spiritually). They were believed (as the Catholics believed heretics) to be minions of the devil. They are almost exactly the same, though the witch hunts were not as well focused, having multiple directions and leadership. Student7 (talk) 18:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Having said that, Catholics did not believe that a heretic could make your goat sick. Catholics were more interested in the soul of the heretic and the effect he might have on the souls of others. The witch hunters seemed more concerned with material effects. Making goats sick, for example. I find witch hunts a bit sloppier for lack of lucid direction. Student7 (talk) 18:27, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Student7 said that Catholics believed a heretic would not make a goat sick, and that is quite correct. The same Catholics may have believed that a witch could; but a heretic wouldn't.--2001:A61:20D4:3001:6502:1556:C5A9:8692 (talk) 08:27, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison to Protestants 

message: The link to "Spain and the Spaniard" is a bit much. It is highly POV. I think it should go into the deletion bin/recycling bin/trash bin/rubbish heap. Devilishlyhandsome (talk) 17:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: . Ingersoll a famous atheist, not a historian. Probably can find reputable historians who make a similar point. Student7 (talk) 21:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link for deletion 

message: The statement in the article that "It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy" is actually erroneous.
The history of Ammianus Marcellinus attests the existence of Christian state inquisitions during the rule of Constantius II, c.350 CE, at the city of Scythopolis.  See specifically Chapter XII and XIII-XIV of the Book XIX of Ammianus' Res Gestae:
[quote]...as accusations extended more widely, involving numbers without end in their snares, many perished; some with their bodies mangled on the rack; others were condemned to death and confiscation of their goods; while Paulus kept on inventing groundless accusations, as if he had a store of lies on which to draw, and suggesting various pretences for injuring people, so that on his nod, it may he said, the safety of every one in the place depended. For if any one wore on his neck a charm against the quartan ague or any other disease, or if by any information laid by his ill-wishers he was accused of having passed by a sepulchre at nightfall, and therefore of being a sorcerer, and one who dealt in the horrors of tombs and the vain mockeries of the shades which haunt them, he was found guilty and condemned to death. [/quote]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.105.225 (talk) 06:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: http://www.tektonics.org/af/crimeline.htm tends to refute the theory of religious motivation. The Emperors did a lot of unpleasant things, before and after becoming Christian. The Christians had just "taken over." This implies a large cadre of "inquisitors" which, a few years earlier, had been hiding in the cellar, as it were. Doesn't seem quite plausible. And anyway, Marcellinus, a pagan, doesn't associate the activities with Christianity, which he would have every motive to do, if the accusation were true. Student7 (talk) 18:04, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inquisitions of the 4th century 

message: I've just read the NY Times obituary of Benzion Netanyahu. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/world/middleeast/benzion-netanyahu-dies-at-102.html?hp . It references his book "The Origins of the Inquisition in 15th Century France" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679410651/ref=kinw_rke_rti_1 . From the obituary and from the book reviews quoted on Amazon, it looks like this is a major scholarly study of the Spanish Inquisition, though its thesis is apparently controversial. Shouldn't this book be mentioned in the Bibliography section here? I'm inclined to add it. Is there any reason not to? Omc (talk) 07:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you are right to point out that he is a notable scholar in this area. On the other hand, it would be nice to keep the list to ten or so. There have to be, literally, a hundred thousand books on the Inquisition. The problem is not discovering them for this article. The problem is limiting them to "the best of the best." A criteria(on) to do just that would be even more appreciated. Student7 (talk) 13:15, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book by Benzion Netanyahu 

message: Actually, this citation, by Yale Law School, seems to suggest just the opposite. Student7 (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Torture in defiance of canon law

message: This quote from the "reputation(s)" section of the article is a pretty blatantly POV piece of apologist crap:
"With the sharpening of debate and of conflict between the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Counter-Reformation, Protestant societies came to see/use the Inquisition as a terrifying "Other" trope,[24] while staunch Catholics regarded the Holy Office as a necessary bulwark against the spread of reprehensible heresies. So it is necessary to realise evidence shows that those involved with the inquisition sincerely thought that they were doing God's work in extirpating what they considered heresy and opposition to the Roman Church. The very title of the humiliating spectacles of the 'auto-da-fe' which means 'act of faith' shows this. Their acts were a consequence of their beliefs rather than any initial pathology."
Uh, okay, so should we give the Taliban a free pass because they believe they're doing God's work?  This piece has little relevance to the subject matter because it's obviously implied that the atrocities committed during the Inquisition were due to the perpetrator's religious beliefs.  If no one can come up with a valid reason not to in the next week or so, I'm removing this section entirely.  It's unnecessary and is nothing more than a weak attempt to make an excuse for atrocities committed by the Church. 192.26.212.203 (talk) 17:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm failing to see where in that paragraph a "free pass" is given to anyone. Nowhere does it say that the Inquisition's actions were acceptable, simply that they were driven by religious beliefs, which you agreed is obviously true. I think you would need to provide a valid reason for removing this before challenging others to come up with counter-reasons. Also, please try to keep your posts WP:CIVIL. -- Fyrefly  (talk) 21:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. As far back as Augustine's time, there were those in and out of the Church who saw that persecution of heretics or others of different faiths was against the moral standards of mankind. Generally, the governments of Rome and Greece were very tolerant of religious diversity, except for the persecution of Christians. The whole idea behind polytheism was religious freedom to worship anyone you wanted. We are not the only society to value freedom of speech and religion. These are values that go way back in history, and Christian violation of them must be seen for what they were, crimes against humanity.  I would also like to know the influence of the inquisition and other Christians in the persecution of the religions of Native Americans. We Christians, like Pope John Paul, want to know the details of this ugly part of our history, or we will be doomed to repeat them. Bdubay (talk) 18:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

text: It's generally best to report the facts and leave subjective opinion to modern events using modern standards. When given the chance, most of the accused chose the Inquisition over secular trial because a) the activities of the court was more or less predictable, b) it was subject to review by somebody (the court took notes), c) it was less subjective, d) it was trying to make an understandable, predictable "point," e) the defendant was not only allowed, but encouraged to speak, f) degree of involvement was important, and g) genuine repentance was encouraged (if guilt was uncovered), and h) the finding of "innocence" was quite possible. Much of this would not be allowable nowdays, by any means. The history of Western jurisdiction was built on the Inquisition in large measure. It was a step forward at the time, not a step back. Student7 (talk) 19:59, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reputation(s) Section is POV 

message: Auto da fe is not Spanish, it's Portuguese.
--Jidu Boite (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the article Auto-da-fé, "Both auto de fe in medieval Spanish and auto da fé in Portuguese mean 'act of faith' ". -- Fyrefly  (talk) 10:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auto da fe 

message: According to Ricardo García-Cárcel, 'La Inquisición', ISBN: 84-7969-011-9, 'The role of monarchy in the Spanish Inquisition between...(XIII and XIV century) was quite passive, tensions existed between monarquy and Inqusition when this last one banned in the XIV century the works by Arnau de Vilanova or Raimon LLull, to what the kings of the Aragonese crown opposed. When Fernando 'the catholic' introduced the authoritarian monarchy in Spain...,a radical change in situation was produced. Aware of the social-religious problems that the converted jewish posed, and avid of an Eclessial legitimacy that the absolute power they were looking for required, the monarchs urged the Pope to give a new Inquisitin to the crown of Castilla, that never had had such an institution. In Nov 1478, the pope Sixto IV in his Bulla: 'Exigit sincerus devotionis affectus' gave the 'Catholic Kings' the power of designating two or three bishops or secular or regular priests (Older than 40 years, with a recommendable life, and with academic titles) to exert the role of inquisitors in the towns or Dioceses of their kingdoms. Until october 1483 a true battle was fought between the monarchy and the papacy because of the ecclessial concept the pope had about Inquisition, versus the monarchic aspiration of using the Inquisitorial institution as an instrument of their own power. The first Inquisitors, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de san Martin were erected in september 27, 1480. The first 'Auto de fe' was held in Seville at Februray 6, 1481. Regarding the Aragon kingdom, R Garcia-Carcel remarks the efforts of the catholic King to obtain the stablishment of the new inquisition, as he had to overcome the resistances of converses and the papal reluctance....In April 1482, Sixto IV was forced to change  his negative decission of January 1482, and accepted the Inqusition institutionalizaion in the kingdom of Aragon. The pope made several attempts to come back in this decission, but finally, the situation consolidated in October 1483, when Fray Tomás de Torquemada (having jewish ancestry, according to José Meir Estrugo, in: 'Los sefardíes') was designed General Inquisitor for both Castilla and the kingdom of Aragon. From this moment on, R G-C thinks the modern Inquisition was born.
For R G-C, the religious factor -specifically 'the jewish problem'- was not decissory for the birth of modern inquisition.
Jewish historians, -R G-C continues- are today forthright in considering that converse jewish were assimilated to christianity by the end of XV century.... Mass conversions took place between 1391 and 1415. Inquisition, in the case of persecution of judaism, should have been stablished then, and not almost a century later.
About death penalties sentences by Inquisitors, some authors point that in many cases it were transformed into life imprisonment, but in the XIV century, after a mere three years in prison, people having received a death penalty, then a lifelong imprisonment sentence, were able to go out of the prison with just some minor freedom restrictions.--Jgrosay (talk) 00:02, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other points of view about the Inquisición in Spain 

message: Orthodox people from Italy and Sicily were hunted too. [user:uknown]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.20.157 (talk) 18:31, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another one group that was hunted from Inquisition 

message: Which would recommend that the religious people would not write articles on factual matters which heavily impact their faith. People feel even more strongly about their faith that about articles on themselves. Furthermore they tend to have access to a very pre-biased collection of the reference material on the topics, and be, let's say, far more enthusiastic about bridging the gap between their faith and the article from the article's side. 78.60.253.249 (talk) 16:10, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  I think you guys seriously need a new rule 

message: It is fairly fully unclear from the sub-article, witchcraft, what it has to do with the main article, Inquisition?71.90.24.130 (talk) 13:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am not sure what the sub-article on witchcraft has to do with the main article Inquisition? 

message: "When a suspect was convicted of unrepentant heresy, the inquisitorial tribunal was required by law to hand the person over to the secular authorities for final sentencing, at which point the penalty would be determined by a magistrate, usually burning at the stake although the penalty varied based on local law.[8][9] The laws were inclusive of proscriptions against certain religious crimes (heresy, etc.), and the punishments included death by burning, although imprisonment for life or banishment would usually be used." 
I'm sorry, which is "usual"?  And, when?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.90.24.130 (talk) 14:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usual penalty? 

message: The latest edit fails not only WP:NPOV but also WP:SYNTH. What exacly are you trying to say by "key figures who have responsibility for these crimes have the title of saint"? Elizium23 (talk) 02:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Further, the citation tying these to the Inquisition and perfidy is non-WP:RS but a mere media wonk. There is at least one other editor who supports this change, so we have consensus, besides good arguments! Thanks. Student7 (talk) 17:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV and SYNTH discussion 

message: Not written by me, taken from Criticism of the Catholic Church:
In spite of (relatively rare) instances of torture and wrongful execution, it was still widely considered in Europe to be the fairest (and most merciful) judicial system in Europe at that time, as evidenced by records of people blaspheming in secular courts intentionally for them to be brought before the Inquisition for a more just and fair trial.
Syced (talk) 07:49, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph taken from Criticism of the Catholic Church 

message: Please, explain why was the Russian Inquisition deleted.--87.126.170.224 (talk) 13:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the use of the term "Inquisition" for persecution of heretics in general is WP:OR. Even the Orthodox Catechism uses the term "Inquisition" to refer to the institution set up by Gregory IX  Oxford Encyclopedias also use this definition. Seraphim System (talk) 13:24, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Suggest another wording of the lead sentence.  The institution was set by the Pope, but the term have additional different uses today. The authors referenced to the passage use the term "Inquistion". It may be moved for example to Eastern Orthodox Church, but I think here is a more suitable article, since the added books discuss "Russian Inquisition".  --87.126.170.224 (talk) 14:24, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "Russian inquisition" has been used by various academics to describe different things - it was used in a translation of a 1914 letter from the Party of Socialist Revolutionaries to describes actions of the Tsar, it was used by Simon Dubnow to describe persecution of the Jews in Ukraine, it was used by the Russian Information Bureau in the U.S. as a synonym for the Extraordinary Commission - perhaps one or two scholars have used the term to describe the Orthodox Church but that does not necessarily make it suitable for this article. You will need to get consensus to make this change, and then it has to be discussed. Even if it is suitable for the article, it does not justify rewriting the lead sentence and inserting WP:OR about how similar the two events were. Seraphim System (talk) 16:36, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

text: I will also remind you that while foreign language materials are allowed, they are not preferable under WP:V. In this case, I don't think one foreign language source is enough, where OUP is very clear in it's article - titled "Inquisition - about the meaning of the Inquisition. You would need very strong, widely cited academic source(s) to meet the burden for WP:DUE. I am not opposed to inclusion, if it can be sourced in a manner that is consistent with our policies. Seraphim System (talk) 16:44, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I will try to provide more sources. But I am not sure they will be all English-language, though I have yet found one. The same term redirects to disambiguation for different uses of inquisition, and the persecution of Jews, I suggest here is the article about the most popular use of inquisition - by the Christian or Catholic Church. It may be not just the Catholic as the title suggests of itself. If not let's think of another article to move.--87.126.170.224 (talk) 18:04, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: There are already other articles covering the Russian Orthodox Church and its treatment of heresy, as well as general articles on heresy as a whole; but this article is specifically about a Catholic practice and is designed to cover that specific practice in some depth. You can't turn every article into a very broad overview of a large subject, because that defeats the point of having several separate articles and it makes it difficult to cover specific subjects in depth. Protestant groups also punished heresy, but that isn't covered in this article either. If you want to add this material, it should be added in one of the many articles covering the Russian Orthodox Church or Russian history. AgeOfPlantagenet (talk) 18:18, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

text: There is already a section about it in Heresy in Christianity that could be expanded. Also, you should know that blogs, like wordpress are not a source - you can read WP:RS and WP:V to find out more about what kinds of sources we use. Seraphim System (talk) 19:25, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

text: If you still disagree the part would have to be moved to another article. Another option is to create a separate article, but I am not familiar with the rules for creating an article. The problem is that the process was mentioned as Inquistion in contemporary Russian law. this it says that in each Russian eparchy people called "provincial inquisitors" were employed and were subjected to clerics called "inquisitors" in tows. Sources I found that claims there was an Orhtodox Inquisition(at least two can be read and translated online): 1.) Е.Ф. Грекулов «Православная инквизиция в России» (link for translation). 2) "Булгаков А. Святая инквизиция в России до 1917", 3) "Н. И. Барсов. В книге «Существовала ли в России инквизиция?» (1892 г.)", 4) "Андрей Печёрский. Счисление раскольников. Полное собрание сочинений П. И. Мельникова (Андрея Печёрского). Издание товарищества М. О. Вольф, 1898. Т. 14, С. 359". You may also check this analysis.--77.85.24.173 (talk) 12:28, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: AgeofPlantagenet, you were the only objector of adding this in the discussion so far. Do you still object to adding the topic here? If you still object I will try to add it another article. If you probably don't respond in reasonable time here, it would be justifiable to readd it in this article in case no other objectors appear. (The dynamic addresses are used by the same person)--83.148.69.4 (talk) 13:27, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  also objected, not just me. And we've already been over the reasons (this article is about a Catholic institution, not Eastern Orthodox Christianity).  AgeOfPlantagenet (talk) 20:41, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear IP, I thought we had agreed, after a careful consideration of the sources, on a suitable article to expand. You are free to create an article, but as an IP, I believe it will have to go through AfC. Seraphim System (talk) 21:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern Orthodox Inquisition 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Holy Inquisition. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  Hildeoc (talk) 12:57, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Holy Inquisition" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: Was the Council of Toulouse run primarily by the Dominicans, or the Inquisition? Elizium23 (talk) 09:37, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Council of Toulouse 

message: Can we get some discussion of the degree of accuracy of Edgar Allan Poe’s short story “The Pit and the Pendulum”? For better or worse, it has been read by millions, and is part of the history of the subject, if nothing else. 31.94.73.86 (talk) 00:57, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: In Popular Culture