Talk:Cristero War

message: There was nothing "Marxist" even remotely about the Revolutionary Government of Mexico that came to power on the heals of hte 1910-1918 Revolution. The closest it ever came to "Marxism" was under the Cardenas presidency ('34- '40) and at no point did *any* of Presidents, nor what became, can be described as "Marxist". it's actually quite a slander.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.81.228.221 (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: it's been deleted because the gov't., factually, was not "Marxist" which is a self-described label not appropriate here.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.81.228.221 (talk) 21:01, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

text: This answer seems to be motivated by emotion and politics and should be taken with great scrutiny. 2600:1702:1DD1:2500:194E:2A16:BD9E:3A27 (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted "Marxist Mexican Government" 

message: This article seems to have very few citations.  There are a number of respected sources by academic historians, especially Jean Meyer's monumental three-volume work "La Cristiada," which should form the basis of the article. 
Regarding who was at fault, a point that is brought up: that is not an issue to be raised in Wikipedia. The issue is getting the relevant facts into the piece and getting it right.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.216.214.118 (talk) 16:57, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major revamping necessary 

message: This needs to use the :Template:Battlebox, like seen on Polish-Soviet War for example. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template needed 

message: I changed "human rights" to "civil rights" since that is a more accurate description of the rights involved: voting, freedom of expression, the right to wear clerical garb. 24.126.41.116 07:31, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Human rights or civil rights

message: Should there not be a bit more background on the 1917 Constitution? The articles there did not spring ex nihilo: they were rooted in a long-standing conflict between Independent Mexico and the RCC. The RCC first demanded that Independent Mexico take over the obligations of the Spanish Crown (vis a vis the Concordato signed between the Church and the Crown), but refused to grant them the corresponding priviledges (most notably, the naming of bishops and archbishops). When the 1856 Constitution did not include civil penalties and prosecution for failure to obey canon law (e.g., failure to pay a tithe and so on), the Church denounced it and issued an Excommunication Writ on anyone who swore to uphold it (as all civil officials were required to do). They then offered a ceremony for "removal of the oath" for anyone who wanted it. They would later reaffirm the excommunication writ though they only selectively enforced it during the Porfirio Diaz years. After Maximilian supported some of the Reform laws issued by Juarez and Lerdo de Tejada, the RCC demanded that he declare catholicism not only the official religion of Mexico, but "the one and only possible religion for all mexicans"; Maximilian refused, though he offered to make it the official religion of the Royal House (not enough for the RCC). The conflict hardly began in 1917; as for some of the civil rights, the right to vote was (and remains) denied on the grounds that the RCC clergy must swear an oath of fealty to a foreign head of state, an act that usually carries a revokation of citizenship not only in Mexico, but in most countries.
Magidin Talk 10:14, 24 Aug 2005 (MDT)
:Agreed, but at least in my case I don't have any references which I could use to expand this article. And my background on this issue is certainly not enough. Why don't you add the info yourself or at least provide some sources? -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 15:39, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
::Well, one reference is Mexico a través de los siglos, which contains a wealth of transcribed original documents (such as the letters exchanged by the Nuncio and Maximilian on the issue of the official religion of Mexico). Alas, I don't have it with me, and still being somewhat new to Wikipedia I do not want to mess around too much with an article that has been deemed a featured article without some discussion, hence my posting this in talk rather than just going ahead writing from memory. Magidin Talk 12:10, 24 Aug 2005 (MDT)
:::There's a lot of material to cover on church/state relations, both before and after independence. Magidin, do you feel up to adding a "History" section to Catholic Church in Mexico?
::::Alas, not off the top of my head, which is what I would be doing if I were trying to do it now. Magidin Talk 13:11, 24 Aug 2005 (MDT)
:Pitty, I have that series of books back at home. The problem is that I'm in Germany right now :( -- Rune Welsh ταλκ 21:18, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
::Adding to Midigin's excellent historical background, the main issue(according to some scholars) was the government's decision to provide free and non-religious public education, since education was, in a certain way, controlled and used as a means of indoctrination, by the RCC. The RCC may have accepted (though grudginly) the confiscation of their property, but once education was taken from their hands, according to these scholars, their power over the population would be limited. Also, it should be noted that Mexico was probably the first and one of the few countries in Latin America that did it. Even today, RCC in Argentina receives by law funds from the government, and many public schools are Catholic. Same situation in Spain, and in both countries the issue whether "religion" (that is, catholicism) should still be part of the curricula, is extremely controversial.--129.119.25.31 14:17, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry but that's incorrect. Public education in Argentina has been secular by law since 1884. There are private catholic schools like elsewhere in the Western world, but public education is strictly secular. See: Argentine Law 1420. One should be careful about making generalizations about the "Spanish speaking world" as the history, culture, background and socioeconomics in each country are very different. Regards.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.19.248.204 (talk) 20:07, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish all the right-wingers and Catholics here would stop throwing around the word Fascist about people who were not in anyway inspired by Mussolini and Co. and who were not far-right of the centre of the political spectrum. Whether you like it or not, Fascism is a right-wing ideology. That said, it is incorrect to even call extreme conservatives Fascists because to be a Fascist (even a pseudo-Fascist) you need a pedigree actually stretching back to the foundation of Fascism in Italy. Calles etc. were not inspired by Fascism and thus they cannot be Fascist. Many members of the government considered themselves Marxist, and most Marxist groups are anti-clerical.
Franco was not anti-cleric, the left-leaning Spanish Republic which he overthrow was. Mussolini was not particularly anti-clerical when it came to politics either, even if he was an atheist. You need to read up more on the history of these regimes. Also you should remember Salazar, leader of Portugal, who was an extreme Catholic and inspired by Fascism. 
Anti-clericalism is not a core tenant of Fascism, it is, however, a core tenant of most Radical Left groups such as Marxism (particularly that of Marxism-Leninism...hence Envar Hoxha). Maybe some Cristeros were liberal, but most of their leaders were conservatives trying to preserve the status quo (incidentally one of the aims of Fascism is to do the same, but they are really more a backstep from conservatism). The Mummy (talk) 13:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: More background

message: Why is this article featured? It's not that good. It could be a lot larger, it doesn't present a single historian's view, it's not really NPOV and it simply reads bad. I suggest this article should lose its featured status, how does that work? Mixcoatl 02:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed 100% Hari Seldon 04:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a featured article back in October, 2004. It cannot lose its previously featured article because you cannot change history. Back then the articles weren't that good. --FateClub 20:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you can change history, and it lookss like this article isn't going to be featured much longer. ¿SFGiДnts! ☺ ☻ 13:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. --FateClub 16:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, that is a good call, no doubt. Unless, of course, the quality of the article could be improved... Hari Seldon 18:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To the level of a good article? Not in near future. Now... to a featured article? I doubt it. --FateClub 19:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured? 

message: Shouldn't the intro simply describe the government as anti-clerical? "Anti-Catholic" seems to be a rather POV position. AshbyJnr 15:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've had this discussion before. I agree with you, and several incarnations of the article have used "anti-clerical". Some editors, however, seem to disagree and keep changing it to "anti-catholic". Magidin 17:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not merely anti-clerical, although many argue, with good reason, that anticlericalism is inherently anti-catholic.  For example, people (José Sánchez del Río for example) were threatened with execution and/or torture to renounce their faith.  That is not mere anti-clericalism.  Also, the clearing of priests from Tabasco, limiting the entire state of Chihuahua to one priest - that's not mere anti-clericalism but and attempt to suppress if not abolish the faith. Mamalujo 21:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If "anticlericalism is inherentlhy anti-catholic", then anticatholicism is a implied by anticlericalism, and the latter is a wider thrust than the fomer. So describing anticlericalism as "merely" would be incorrect to begin with. It would be like saying that it was not merely "soaked", it was "wet". Anticlericalism casts a wider net than anti-catholicism does, as it also restricts other religions (though naturally it hits stronger those religions which have a strong clerical structure such as catholicism, than those who do not, like, say, taoism). Did the government take away rights from catholic priests that it did not deny clerics from other religions? I do not believe so. As such, "anti-clericalism" would be a better label. You may argue that the main objective of the law was catholicism (it being the predominant religion in Mexico; it being the only religious institution that actively opposed the Constitution of 57 because it did not provide civil penalties for not following canon law; it being the one that excommunicated anyone who swore to uphold the Constitution; it being the one who demanded from Maximilian that it declare catholicism "the one and only religion, and the only possible religion, of Mexico and all mexicans"; etc.), or that the anti-clericalism was a mere sham of "even-handed oppression" when the "true goal" was an attack on catholicism, but that's a different issue. The laws were anti-clerical, not anti-catholic. Magidin 00:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Magadin, claiming that anticlericalism is inherently anticatholic makes no sense. Apart from the fact that it's perfectly possible for anticlericalism to be directed at other religions (Atatürk would be a good example), anticlericalism only becomes anti-Catholic (or anti-whatever religion) when it reaches a certain level of severity. Separating church and state in a country that's predominantly Catholic (like Mexico in 1857) is anticlerical but definately not anti-Catholic. As for Calles' campaigns aimed specifically at Catholics, I recall to have read somewhere that Mennonites were also targeted. May be worth investigating. Mixcoatl (talk) 18:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Anti-Catholic or anti-clerical?

message: This article is highly biased. Instead of explaining the facts and the history behind the cristero war, this article seems to had been written with a pro-Catholic sentiment and often expresses opinions rather than facts. AlexCovarrubias ( Talk? ) 21:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you be more specific? Reading through it I see the usual mish-mash of one POV followed by the opposite POV to "balance it out". My general impression is that what the article really needs is inline citations.radek (talk) 09:06, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

text: But along those lines I removed the stuff on freemasons and some alleged conspiracy per WP:FRINGE. It was sourced but two of the sources (this and this guy) straight up do not satisfy WP:RS, while the third  just says that Calles was a mason, not that he persecuted Catholics because he was a mason as the article text claimed.radek (talk) 09:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not everything that deals with Freemasonry is a fringe conspiracy theory.  The role of Freemasonry in Mexican history is well documented by notable historians, as is the role of Freemasonry in anticlericalism throughout the Latin world. You see from the article that even former President Fox makes the point. Mamalujo (talk) 01:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine and I'm not opposed to inclusion of a mention of this - as long as it's cited to reliable sources, which it wasn't previously.radek (talk) 02:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Something that I think does need to be made clearer here is which Masons we are talking about.  The problem is that Freemasonry is not monolithic... there were (and are) multiple competing Grand Lodges and Grand Orients in Mexico, and they often disagreed.  Part of Freemasonry may have had a role in Mexican history... and part of it may have supported Anticlerical political initiatives... but other parts did not. The article, however, talks about "Freemasonry" as if it were one single body with a unified stance.  That is simply incorrect, and displays an Anti-masonic bias. Blueboar (talk) 19:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

text: My commentaries have been taken into consideration in the main text, so I can safely erase them. Thanks a lot. Best wishes:--189.217.193.164 (talk) 15:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality issue 

message: I want to point out that the following text was erased even when it is supported by five references included in published books. Is that an acceptable attitude for editing an encyclopedia?, I do not think so. 
:It is important to recall that the anticlerical resolutions above were included in the Mexican Constitution as a consequence of the support given by the High Mexican Catholic Clergy to the dictatorship of Victoriano Huerta.
The anticlerical provisions in the Mexican Constitution of 1917 were not included just by chance. It is an article about the confrontation between the Catholic Church and the revolutionary governments in Mexico, so it important to say that these anticlerical provisions were included as a consequence of the confrontation between the Catholic church and the revolutionary governments in Mexico, even if we do not like the facts. Indeed Carranza Oregon and Calles fought against Victoriano Huerta dictatorhip. 189.217.17.16 (talk) 06:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You are completely right, it must be said in the Background to rebellion section that the confrontation between the Catholic Church and Villa, Zapata, Carranza, Obregon, Calles, etcetera began in 1913, when the High Mexican Catholic Clergy supported the dictatorship of Victoriano Huerta against the generals who subscribed the Plan de Guadalupe: Villa, Zapata, Carranza, Obregon, Calles, etcetera.148.247.186.142 (talk) 19:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello everyone, I have restored a paragraph in the Background to rebellion section that was deleted without an explanation; and I have also restored my own paragraph in this discussion section that an anon editor erased without my personal consent. I insists that text in the main article must be discussed in this section before being erased or modified, moreover if the text in "analysis" seems to be supported by several books. Finally, I really appreciate that none erased my opinions without my consent, I think we are mature enough so as to be able to discuss the ideas that we do not agree with. Best wishes: --148.247.186.142 (talk) 18:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's fine to included it, but I edited it for POV. I also removed a couple of the sources which aren't so reliable and are highly polemic - we don't really need five sources for the sentence. I also edited for factuality. The confrontation didn't really begin in 1913. The hierarchy supported Huerta as a resistence to already existing anti-clericalism. I've included a sentence to that effect. Mamalujo (talk) 20:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, there is not evidence that Francisco I. Madero (the first revolutionary president elected in November 1911 and executed by Victoriano Huerta in 1913) was anticlerical at all.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.247.186.142 (talk) 20:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the article say that? What change are you proposing? Mamalujo (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

text: For example, you said that: With the Mexican Revolution in 1910 came an increase in anticlericalism, but the reference that you cite said other very different thing: The outbreak of the Mexican Revolution would lead to a resurgence of traditional liberal anticlericalism. Just consider the historic facts: 1.- Porfirio Diaz is president. 2.- Madero, Villa, Zapata, Carranza and other generals lead the revolution against Diaz. 3.- Francisco I. Madero (non anticlerical) becomes president. 4.- Victoriano Huerta executes Madero. 5.- Villa, Zapata, Carranza and other general lead the revolution against Huerta. Carranza (non anticlerical) defeats Villa and Zapata and becomes president. 6.- Obregon (Anticlerical) defeats Carranza and becomes president. 7.- Calles (Strongly anticlerical) becomes president. The fact is that not all the revolutionaries were anti-clerical.   --148.247.186.142 (talk) 21:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Mamalujo, I hope our conversation is not erased again.--148.247.186.142 (talk) 22:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding not all revolutionaries not being anticlerical - granted. But the constitution produced by the revolution indisputably is. In fact, it is considered one of the most anti-clerical. I am glad to have the background section be accurate, but I think we have to be careful not to have surplussage. This is not a general article about the revolution, but is about the Cristero War. I think we need to try to keep the background section accurate but succinct. Cheers. Mamalujo (talk) 19:56, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I would dispute that the constitution was anticlerical. 76.21.107.221 (talk) 05:13, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erasing text supported by five references in books. 

message: I would like to point out that several years after this article was created, entire important sections of text, have no sources or reflinks, including, but not limited to, "Diplomacy and the uprising", "Cristero War", "Escalation of violence", and "Background to rebellion". 
I also would add, for Mamalujo, that the term "reportedly" is not weaselry if there is no source for an assertion or claim, or if the source is plainly biased (i.e. the EWTN, which is a militant Catholic apologetics website). And "atheist" is most certainly not used as an epithet, not in any real encyclopedia. My father was a proud atheist as am I. This is an encyclopedia, not an ecclesial website or a site for propaganda (on either side) to go unchecked. Quis separabit? 17:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: POV text

message: "hanged" for "hung."  Here is why: 
"Hanged, as a past tense and a past participle of hang, is used in the sense of “to put to death by hanging,” as in Frontier courts hanged many a prisoner after a summary trial. A majority of the Usage Panel objects to hung used in this sense. In all other senses of the word, hung is the preferred form as past tense and past participle, as in I hung my child's picture above my desk.
(The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, 2000) Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 20:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  I just replaced 

message: There are several other depictions in popular culture.  "The Fugitive" (1947 film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fugitive_%281947_film%29 staring Henry Fonda depicts an unnamed priest in the 1930s during the religious persecutions following the war.  It is based on a 1940 book by Graham Greene "The Power and the Glory" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_and_the_Glory.  Several other adaptions of the book were made for TV and stage.  These are cited in the book article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarletknight72 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Popular Culture.  Additional reference 

message: The group is mentioned in the lead but their role is not explained in the body of the article. What did they do exactly? Rmhermen (talk) 15:03, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The talk page is for discussing improving the article. If you have appropriate sources, please use them to fix the flaw I noticed in the article. Rmhermen (talk) 00:49, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

text: I found this section very confusing. The extent of the role of the Knights of Columbus in supporting and funding the Cristeros is unclear. Was the $1000 all? What is that in current money? Did they send it to the rebels? If so, when and where. How was it transferred? Even more confusing is the relation of the KKK. Did they also donate money to Calles, or just offer? Did he reject their offer? Was this the extent of their involvement? Glaucus (talk) 13:19, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The Knights also lobbied and met with the U.S. President for a diplomatic intervention in the war. They published and distributed 5 million pamphlets to educate Americans about what was going on in Mexico, as it did  not receive much press coverage. I know there are other aspects, for example the federal troops after locating the priests and clerics within a town would often search out the Knights as well. A number of the martyred and beatified priests were Knights. There obviously needs to be a little more pertinent sourced material on the subject in the article. I will do some research. Others should feel free as well. Mamalujo (talk) 23:24, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made some additions. Mamalujo (talk) 00:14, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Knights of Columbus

message: It seems the article goes off track in this section. Perhaps this information about teachers should be split off into its own article since it is no longer about the Cristero War, but a different somewhat related subject.  Taram (talk) 06:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Socialist education and incidents against rural teachers

message: Substituted at 12:26, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've removed an unsourced and nonsensical category. "Persecution by atheists".  The edit summary accompanying the insertion says:
:(according to the article Calles’ Mexico has been characterized as an atheist state, and his program as being one to eradicate religion in Mexico)
While that may be true, it does not support "persecution by atheists", so I've removed it until reliable sources are provided which convey that the persecution was because of atheism. Xenophrenic (talk) 12:45, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: State atheism is a popular term used for a government that is either antireligious, antitheistic or promotes atheism. In contrast, a secular state purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion. State atheism may refer to a government's anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and influence in all aspects of public and political life, including the involvement of religion in the everyday life of the citizen. Calles was a staunch atheist and anticlerical and during his term as president, he moved to enforce the anticlerical articles of the Constitution of 1917, which led to a violent and lengthy conflict known as the Cristero Rebellion or the Cristero War. His regime been characterized as an atheist state, and his program as being one to eradicate religion in Mexico.--Jobas (talk) 12:54, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: We need reliable sources which convey that religious persecution was done because of atheism.  What you've described above constitutes anti-clericalism and religious persecution, so I've made sure the article is in both of those categories, but the "persecution by atheists" is original research and unsourced. (You should know this already, as you participated in a discussion which concluded exactly that.) Xenophrenic (talk) 08:17, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The phrase "according to the article Calles’ Mexico has been characterized as an atheist state, and his program as being one to eradicate religion in Mexico" should be considered for review for three reasons. First, the Calles administration actually sponsored the creation of a Mexican church, the Mexican Catholic Apostolic Church. On the other hand, the document that supports this last statement (American Catholics and Mexican Anticlericalism, 1933–1936) was written in 1958, which gives us almost fifty years of new research and articles to work with. This one in particular feels cherry picked. The third reason this sentence should be reviewed is that, even though the Catholic Church was fiercely persecuted, no other religious association was treated like that. That single handedly brings down the whole “antireligious” hypothesis. Even taking into consideration that other religious associations were a really small minority during this time, the fact that the institutional violence focused only on one organization (one with huge political power and social influence) can be seen as more in line with the nation-state building efforts of the time than one of anti-religiousness. --Erick Rozo (talk) 17:16, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent category addition 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There's a sentence at the end of the "Church and State Conflict" which reads: "To destroy the Church's influence over the Mexican people, anti-clerical laws were instituted, beginning a ten-year religious conflict that resulted in the death of thousands of civilians who took up arms to fight for their religious freedom". I'll remove the last part of the sentence, "who took up arms to fight for their religous freedom". 
The reason is that the sentence establishes a subjective undertone to the otherwise impartial information that was given previously. Even if the personal motivation of one given individual was “religious freedom”, as a whole, the Cristero affair can be seen more as a conflict between the old and new Mexican elites: the church and the revolutionary state. Presenting them as martyrs that died for civil rights undermines the fact that the Catholic Church had been a huge political and social influence in México for centuries. The church, as an institution, was fighting to keep their influence and power in law making. This can be read in almost all of the books and articles written and published by the most respected Mexican historians. Erick Rozo (talk) 16:47, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fighting for religious freedom? 

message: It is inaccurate to include the Holy See as a belligerent in this war, being that they did not directly support the taking up of arms by Cristeros, they did not canonize anyone who did so, etc. Elizium23 (talk) 18:56, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Hacheyexcellent, I reverted your infobox addition of Holy See to the "supporters" of the rebel side; The few histories I've seen (even sources sympathetic to the government) have all been emphatic about the official neutrality of the Vatican, at least as regards the fighting itself. The fact that their acceptance of the US-brokered arreglos was sufficient to end major hostilities (for a time anyway) is definitely suggestive, but do you have anything concrete that shows a policy of active tangible support to the rebels? Thanks 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:2566:EE89:3238:D86B (talk) 23:15, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holy See as belligerent 

message: I was wondering whether the photos of the hangings are necessary? Especially if there are no prior warnings regarding them appearing in the article. Perhaps a description of what occurred in writing would suffice? 86.183.32.105 (talk) 22:35, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of hanging 

message: The prominent inclusion of the group synonymous with racist violence in the U.S. -- especially when "balanced" by including the Knights of Columbus on the other side -- reads like it came from a bullet point on a pamphlet intended to smear the government by association.
Then, the totally unrelated third (final) sentence of the section reads like the author inadvertently included the next bullet point on that pamphlet, reporting a private telegram to France that reveals Calles's sinister socialist plan: 
: In the mid-1920s, high-ranking members of the anti-Catholic Ku Klux Klan offered Calles $10,000,000 to help fight the Catholic Church. The offer came after the Knights of Columbus in the US secretly offered a group of Cristero rebels $1,000,000 in financial assistance to be used to purchase guns and ammunition – this was being done in secret after the extreme measures taken by Calles to destroy the Catholic Church. That was after Calles had also sent a private telegram to the Mexican Ambassador to France, Alberto J. Pani, to advise him that the Catholic Church in Mexico was a political movement and must be eliminated to proceed with a socialist government "free of religious hypnotism which fools the people... within one year without the sacraments, the people will forget the faith...."
2600:1702:6D1:28B0:FDAB:CA4F:3B6B:E9A1 (talk) 05:55, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Klan 

message: If anyone had bothered to actually peak at the article, the Ku Klux Klan and Knights of Columbus' aid was not 'negligible'. Their support was open and were prepared to chip in to the war effort. Frankly, I've done all I can do, as WP:3RR is stopping me from proceeding this war. Mebigrouxboy (talk) 17:27, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: "Negligible" comes from the Lawrence 2020 source; whether it was "open" is irrelevant (and the citation to unidentified "Letters found in Calles' library" doesn't really aid further research). But regardless: is "prepared to chip in" really the threshold for prominent placement in the Supporters infobox? Are there any sources that even claim that the "offer" was accepted? Or is there any reason to believe that this amount, even if accepted, would have been more impactful/notable than support from other third parties? The fact that no mention of it is made anywhere else in the article would indicate "no"; and so the sole purpose for its inclusion would appear be to smear Calles by association with racist terrorism (especially with the attempt to "balance" that by including the equally-negligible support from the comparatively-benign KoC). The fact that the article's Klan section (quoted in full in above) is mostly filled out by a wholly-unrelated attempt to smear Calles as a malevolent godless socialist just makes the whole thing farcical. 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:81BC:3778:6DEB:A50B (talk) 18:10, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: At it's core, the Cristero War was all about Catholicism. Catholicism was very much hated by the Klan, who sought to exterminate it. Therefore, they offered to give what I estimate to be over 150,000,000 USD to fight Catholics and continue secularist policies. Therefore, no, Wikipedia's inclusion of the Klan as a part of this war was not to posthumously slander Calle. It was a notable footnote that deserved contextualization, thus the length of it's section. The KKK was and is a notable terrorist group inside the United States. It should not be left out, no matter if they did or didn't do anything in the war effort. I don't care if the KoFC is included. They've never shown themselves to operate as an army.  One more thing... Kind of suspicious how random IPs in the US keep showing up to keep the KKK and KoFC out of the Cristero War using the same language and mannerisms. Mebigrouxboy (talk) 00:40, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  The fact that the KKK is a notable terrorist group in the US -- best-known for its hostility to minorities, including Mexicans -- should raise, not lower the bar for their inclusion as "supporters" on one side of a conflict that in no way involved them. The fact that the full extent of this support is a supposed offer -- with no claim it was even seriously received, let alone accepted or paid  -- would make its inclusion wildly disproportionate even if the payor was a group without inflammatory associations. I understand that the Klan is vehemently anti-Catholic, and that reliable sources have repeated the claim of an offer of payment: at least one of those sources calls it "negligible". Perhaps the Klan's article would be the appropriate place to dig in to their general anti-Catholic stance, rather than trying to shoehorn it here "no matter if they did or didn't do anything"? I've left the section in the article repeating the claims in detail for somebody more competent to rework; the inclusion in the infobox / category list is just over-the-top slanted. Thanks (those suspicious random IPs in the US) 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:406E:5AE9:174F:1BB2 (talk) 02:26, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting opinion. I suppose I may have been wrong. Also, do you know anything about why all but 1 of these suspicious IPs (including yours) comes from Ann Arbor? Mebigrouxboy (talk) 03:30, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  One might infer that related edits from similar IPs from the same geographic region are in fact the same individual editor; alternatively, maybe there is something nefarious afoot? Who's to say! Certainly one risk of anonymous editing is somebody plugging your IP into a geo-IP database and casually mentioning it in an unrelated thread. Holiday greetings from suspicious US IPs! 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:340F:E0E4:F759:2E71 (talk) 13:38, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  lol  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.227.23.35 (talk) 23:06, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The KKK in the USA never had millions of dollars --and the many scholary studies of the KKK do nor mention any offer to Mexico. The source cited is a picture book by an author (Meyer) who is not an expert on the KKK. Meyer used oral histories so she's reporting a century-old rumor,  So I deleted the claim. Rjensen (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop the madness! (KKK & KoC) 

message: This currently reads
: Mexican government signs peace agreement with Cristeros
with Cristeros linked to the Liga. Is that a separate agreement from the "arreglos" brokered by Ambassador Morrow between Calles and Leopoldo Ruiz y Flóres (the Holy See's representative in Mexico)? The Liga article itself confirms that they were not party to the "Arreglos" agreement:
: After intense and lengthy negotiations by the U.S. ambassador Dwight W. Morrow, an accord (Arreglos) acceptable to both Calles and the Catholic hierarchy was reached and the bishops ordered the LNDLR to cease military and political activities and the Cristeros to lay down their weapons.[17] A number of Cristeros continued fighting, in what some have called "La Segunda", that is the second Cristiada, but they did so without the support of the Church.[18] The LNDLR's criticisms of the episcopal hierarchy's signing on to the Arreglos were blunted given the Vatican's support of the diplomatic accord, but also because Catholic Action, a new lay group firmly under the hierarchy's control, was used to rein in radicalized Catholic organizations following the Arreglos.[19]
If there was a second Calles-Liga agreement, that absolutely deserves a mention in the article; if not, then the infobox should be corrected. I see from past Talk threads and several of the sources that there is overwhelming pushback at any suggestion of Vatican involvement in the conflict -- but could we thread the needle by leaving unstated the obvious inference from the fact that "the bishops" were able to "order [the cristeros] to cease military activities"? Just something like 
: Mexican government and Mexican Catholic hierarchy sign arreglos peace agreement"
Thoughts / objections? 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:340F:E0E4:F759:2E71 (talk) 22:47, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox/Result: "Peace agreement" 

message: SuperSkaterDude45, opening another thread here for you to reply, and to focus things I'll summarize my understanding of the last two threads on the subject:
* the Klan's "support" is not mentioned anywhere in the article, except for a paragraph asserting the support that veers into an unrelated anticommunist screed. My inference then is that this "support" is included not because it was impactful, but rather to tarnish the Mexican side of the conflict by association with a racist American terrorist org.
* I have no objection to the inclusion of the Klan's support in the article's body; just to its inclusion in the infobox.
* I have seen nobody claim (let alone a reliable source) that the Klan's offer of support was even accepted, let alone paid
* I have seen no claims that even if were paid, the support was anything beyond "negligible" (and at least one source, Lawrence 2020, in fact calls it "negligible")
* I originally read the KoC's inclusion on the other side as an attempt at "balancing" one arguable inclusion with another (Lawrence 2020 also calls the KoC support "negligible"), but somebody added them back in, and after further reading, their involvement in arms smuggling from Canada does seem pretty remarkable; so I stopped reverting that. No strong feelings either way there.
Hope this helps. I'm no expert on the subject, any pointers to sources on the Klan's support for the Calles government would be genuinely appreciated. 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:9C2B:6A86:92A0:29ED (talk) 19:18, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  You assert that there are sources, but haven't named one -- the only source I've seen reference the Klan's support (Lawrence 2020) explicitly calls it "negligible". The past tense in "was even noted in the main article" seems like a bit of a red flag -- was the source there also unspecified "Letters found in Calles' library"?. If the issue is that ~ the article has a [poorly-sourced and incoherent] section on Klan support, therefore the Klan's support should go in the infobox, removing the section seems like the obvious solution. I personally would prefer the section stay, since it makes the article's bias pretty clear, but it would definitely be more encyclopedic without it.  2600:1702:6D1:28B0:9C2B:6A86:92A0:29ED (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  P.S. from https://middleearthmag.com/a-clash-of-knights-the-american-proxy-war-during-the-cristero-rebellion/ : "So, according to Meyer in his book La Cristiada, several high-ranking Klansmen reached out to President Calles with an offer of about $10,000 to be used for purchasing weapons. Calles’s government did not accept the offer, and there are few records indicating that Klansmen served as mercenaries in Mexico between 1926 and 1929.". Please stop adding this ridiculous smear. 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:9C2B:6A86:92A0:29ED (talk) 18:46, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Klan, again for SuperSkaterDude45 

message: Evidently there are a number of editors who feel strongly that the lede must assert that the 1917 constitution was not only secularist and anticlerical, not just that it disproportionately affected Catholics, but actually "aimed at" being specifically "anti-Catholic". This seems pretty blatantly un-encyclopedic and ahistorical, but given the *wildly* ahistorical comparison made in this edit comment, that's presumably the intent. As it stands today it clearly announces the article's biases from the start, which is at least helpful for the critical reader. Still, maybe worth discussing? Thanks (North American IPs) 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:AC37:EA1D:39F7:1331 (talk) 00:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. I've seen a number of sources refer to the Calles administration as "state atheist", and in his private opinions Calles expressed antipathy towards the Church, but I've never come across a RS referring to the 1917 Constitution articles as "anti-Catholic". Seems unencyclopedic and honestly a little absurd that an anti-Catholic body of law would have been supported (and mostly triumphed) in an overwhelmingly Catholic country Tepetzintle (talk) 21:03, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "...which were anti-Catholic measures aimed at imposing state atheism" 

message: Everything under the subheading "Background" in the "Background" section seems redundant. It is simply a summarized (and somewhat biased) version of the rest of that same section. 
Thestereotypebuster (talk) 16:24, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated information under "Background" 

message: I finally broke down and got a print copy of this. I'll quote the entire referenced section (p.153):
: Attacks upon the Knights' Mexican Fund came especially from the Ku Klux Klan and its supporters. In fact, the Klan was quick to denounce the Knights' plan and to offer $10 million to the Mexican government in its fight against Papism. The KKK also sent telegrams of congratulations to Calles, asking him repeatedly for the full annihilation of the Church south of the Rio Grande. Moreover, even the U.S. Senate took notice as it hotly debated the Knights' fund for three hours in January 1927. The debate was led by Senator James Thomas Heflin, who contributed to KKK magazines and lectured around the country to audiences made up largely of KKK members.
Beyond confirming that Meyer does not claim that the outrageously-large "offer" was paid (or accepted), it's also clear that the only reason he brings up the Klan is to cast aspersions on those who criticized the KoC's funding of the rebels. The following paragraph ends rather ominously:
: Eventually, the authors of these outlandish accusations were exposed as frauds, although these types of attacks continued for years. This necessitated on certain occasions the intervention of the K of C Catholic Affairs Committee to curb the spread of such untrue and malicious statements and pursue appropriate legal avenues to ensure that satisfactory retraction was made.
My takeaway is that giving the Klan a whole section is giving it undue weight -- even Meyer stuffed it in as an aside in his KoC section, and he's pretty transparent about where his bias lays.
But, since it seems like this myth of Klan support is still pervasive, maybe a Klan section clearly spelling out where this claim comes from would be helpful to casual readers.
2600:1702:6D1:28B0:874:91FC:5371:3055 (talk) 23:37, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meyer's La Cristiada 

message: Here is recent scholarship that explains what the Calles government tried to do regarding the Catholic Church: from Robert Weis,  "The Revolution on Trial: Assassination, Christianity, and the Rule of Law in 1920s Mexico."  Hispanic American Historical Review. (May 2016) , Vol. 96 Issue 2, p319-353, 
page  323 states:  "Against claims that revolutionaries sought to destroy the church, officials insisted that they pursued the rule of law. During his presidential campaign, Calles clarified that he was not an “enemy of religion”; he approved of “all religious beliefs because [he] consider[ed] them beneficial for the moral progress that they encompass.” He was, however, an enemy of “the political priest, the scheming priest, the priest as exploiter.”18 This position of lauding religion while inveighing against earthly ecclesiastic machinations was central to the trial and to the justification of the anticlerical campaign in general.  As president, Calles expressed determination to enforce the laws of the 1917 constitution that mandated secular education, banned foreign priests as well as confessional political parties and newspapers, nationalized all church properties, and granted local governments the authority to limit the number of priests."  Rjensen (talk) 19:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Rjensen; my objection to the wording was not about Calles's position re: religion/catholicism in particular, but about ventriloquizing the Klan to sneak in the factual assertion that he was waging "a war against the Catholic church". If we wanted to stick to the single source for this alleged offer -- Jean Meyer's illustrated coffeetable book on the glorious Mexican people's war for religious liberty -- something like "encouraging him to annihilate the church south of the Rio Grande" would at least make it clear that the sentence is characterizing the Klan's views, rather than making a factual claim about "Calles's war on the Catholic Church". I really didn't expect that my edit going the other direction (simply taking no position on whether the Catholic Church itself was a belligerent in the conflict) would be so controversial though, so I'll leave sorting that out to you all. ShadyNorthAmericanIPs (talk) 15:26, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calles government position 

message: — Assignment last updated by GLGaglyport (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: HIST3150