Talk:Christianity/Archive 16

message: Giovani33, Would you mind dropping me an e-mail at trollwatcher@gmail.com and then the following day make a note below confirming the title of the e-mail so that I can be sure its from you. Thanks. Trollwatcher 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Giovani33, Apologies, that e-mail address should have read trollwatcher@hotmail.comTrollwatcher 17:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: What does the page history say? Tom Harrison Talk 17:56, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Mr T, if you are referring to my edits - it is called archiving. The page was very large and I archived various sections  into the archives 24  and  25 . I moved your request for Gio, which would have been archived, down to the 2nd section called "A Simple Question" to ensure that Gio could read it.  Sorry, if I have confused you. Str1977 18:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Giovanni33

message: Just a question about the users on the Christianity page and this discussion page: 
Are you a non-Christian who habitually contributes to this page ?
If you are, would you mind noting your own userID below and optionally adding "yes" or "no" to the following question: Do you feel that the Christianity page succeeds in being NPOV and that the majority of principal contributors to it genuinely try to be NPOV ?
If you do not fall into the category being addressed, or want to add anything further, please start another section so as not to complicate responses.
:I'm non-Christian, and I do post on the discussion every so often.... in the past week... and I think the whole problem with POV is that Christians and non-Christians alike are in conflict over points that neither documents, so no gain towards the truth happens.  The Christians keep out Giovanni33's posts, he reverts them, neither documents and so we have deadlock.  So, documentation is the key to any POV.
:KV 20:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with that analysis; we all need to be better at documentation.  KHM03 20:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Simple Question 

message: Article talk pages are used to discuss changes to the particular article.
:Not sure what you're getting at here. There has been a couple of weeks of intense accusations about sockpuppets, including a comment that that two IP addresses were similar - clearly designed to suggest something about the contributors in question. I'm wondering why you didn't make this comment during the weeks and pages of witch hunting - but you do now, as soon as someone pitches in in with a genuine question which might be of interest to all non-techies.
Mediation requests are filed at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation, and you can also contact the the Mediation Cabal for assistance.
Tom Harrison Talk 20:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanksTrollwatcher 17:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Trollwatcher, please do not interpolate your reply within my original comment. It makes it hard to untangle who said what. Tom Harrison Talk 18:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article talk pages 

message: These appear to be accepted; I (or whoever wants to) will apply them unless anyone objects.   
*Remove the quotes from the "sin and death" and "General Resurrection" and replace "General Resurrection" by "resurrection of the dead."   
Tom Harrison Talk 19:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes supported by concensus

message: Sorry guys, please see the discussion on this elsewhere. The Church of England has undoubtedly protestant elements but formally it declares itself to be a Catholic, not a Protestant church and you should not include it in lists of Protestant churchs. The figure is wrong in this regard too --BozMotalk 11:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The position of the Anglican Communion is not easily defined in terms which would be accepted by both 'Reformed' and 'Catholic' wings of the Anglican churches. Formally speaking, yes, the Anglican Church defines itself as Catholic, but it also defines the Eastern Orthodox churches as Catholic. To adopt this Anglican definition of Catholic would therefore make a nonsense of any attempt at a broad classification of Christian denominations, since it would apply the label Catholic to all churches claiming episcopal continuity with the apostolic church. (So would calling any church Catholic which professed belief in the "one holy, catholic, and apostolic church".) The Anglican church has existed as an ecclesially distinct body only since the reign of Elizabeth I: before then, it was a national division of the Western (Roman) Catholic Church, which became effectively schismatic under Henry VIII, effectively Protestant under Edward VI, and effectively Roman Catholic again under Mary I, before settling down to a unique 'Reformed and Catholic' compromise under Elizabeth. It is therefore acceptable (at least to all but the more extreme Anglo-Catholics), for pragmatic purposes, to group Anglican churches in the 'Protestant' strand, together with other churches that have formally repudiated the supremacy that the Roman Catholic Church accords to the Pope of Rome. (Some churches that call themselves 'Anglican' are not in communion with the See of Canterbury either, and to classify them as 'Catholic' would not be NPOV as they are only self-defined as such, without general acceptance. On the other hand, the See of Canterbury is now in communion with a number of European churches which are clearly Protestant.)Myopic Bookworm 14:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; the Restoration movement doesn't view itself as Protestant, but they are best grouped there.  Same with the Anabaptists and other groups.  KHM03 14:57, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The Anglican church is indeed a bit of an anomaly, but it is usually grouped with the Protestant churches and sits best there. DJ Clayworth 16:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Some denominations that have sprung up in just the last one or two hundred years also shy away from being called Protestant because they weren't around during the Reformation and emphasize distinctions that weren't at issue then. All the same, based on common usage today these groups are also best grouped under Protestants, much like the Anglicans. Wesley 17:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Arguably, there is room on the figure for a distinct branch, forking (perhaps more than once) from the Catholic branch, which would encompass churches of a broadly 'catholic' tradition which are not in communion with Rome. This might include not only the Anglican Communion, but also the Anglican Continuing Churches, the Old Catholic Churches, and the Hussite Church of the Czech republic. It could perhaps be labelled as 'Episcopalian'. Myopic Bookworm 11:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Your suggestion about the label Catholic applying to all churches claiming episcopal continuity with the apostolic church sounds about right to me, at least that is what I have always been told the word means. In the end as with many church names there is a conflict between a brand name and what the brand name actually means. Conceding the brand name "Catholic" to the extended Church of Rome is too close to conceding the validity of the claim for my taste; others including the old Catholic church (which is in communion with Canterbury not Rome) have an equal claim. I am also not aware of any official statement by the C of E to the effect that it IS protestant as a church even though many of its members are: can anyone provide one? As for the suggestion on the diagram I think it probably would be an improvement if it doesn't overcomplicate them --BozMotalk 13:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglican is not Protestant  

message: I wanted to point out something that should probably be included.  Christianity had a belief in reincarnation, which was removed as a doctrine at the Council of Constanople in 550 CE.  This is referenced in Manly P. Hall's book The Hermetic Marriage on page 234.
KV 05:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose you're referring to the council that condemned certain writings of Origen? It's probably more accurate to say that Origen, and later some (all?) Origenists, had a belief in reincarnation, or something like it.  I don't believe it was ever a universally held dogma though. Wesley 05:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Though I know I'm discounted as a sockpuppet - I'd like to say that I agree with Giovanni and KV on pretty much everything they've said. Also, if we we limit ourselves to universally held dogmas we can probably keep the article down to one line - something along the lines "There have never been any universally held dogmas in Christianity" Trollwatcher 15:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry I wasn't more clear. What I meant was that reincarnation was never a dogma adopted and promulgated by the "Catholic / Orthodox" "mainstream" church. Or by any other sect that was distinct from that church, to my knowledge. It was the opinion of Origen, and some later theologians who agreed with it; they just failed to persuade the rest of the church they belonged to to adopt the same opinion. Examples of "universally held dogmas" include the teachings expressed in the Nicene Creed, which was adopted, amended and later affirmed by councils that were at least thought to represent all of Christianity at that time. Some things that were widely believed by that same church were not held as dogmas because they were considered non-essential, such as the idea that Mary committed no sin. It was a majority opinion, but most people even then didn't see a great danger in thinking that Mary did sin. Wesley 16:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  One more thing 

message: I put 447 as the date the clause was added by the Western Church in line with the above linked article. I question this date as well because I was under the impression that it was the Third Synod of Toledo in 589 that added the "filioque." drboisclair 20:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check. Yes, a complicated history. Perhaps the Filioque clause article should be modified as well. I think that the 447 date is wrong. drboisclair 20:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The date is of very little interest in comparison to several other points raised earlier - for example, that the Council of Nicea anathematised anyone who tampered with the text - which means that under the cannons of a General Council most western Churches are, as Orthodox authorities often put it, "heretics".  Faffing about with dates might be fun but will not resolve the more important issues under discussion   Trollwatcher 13:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency with [[Filioque clause]] 

message: Soliciting input for the Forgiveness article. Would someone be willing to take a stab at adding a Christianity content under the "Religious and spiritual views of forgiveness" heading in that article and trying to concisely state Christianity's view on forgiveness?  Any help would be appreciated.
--speet 05:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for help on Forgiveness article 

message: I've protected because I see there's a revert war. Please try to settle the differences on talk rather than going back and forth, and drop me a note when you're ready to start editing again, or leave a request on WP:PP. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 21:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protection

message: Why have all the dispute tags been taken off - they are very obviously needed & locking the page without them seems absurd. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.114.196.11 (talk • contribs) .
:I agree. Removing the tags was premature, and resulted in a shift from using the talk pages to settle disputes, to editing the article. The Tags should be kept there until consensus is reached on the talk pages and both sides agree on a version they can live with. 
:A little later I will review where I think everyone stands in the disputes and see if we can make further progress in reaching a real and clear consensus so when the lock is lifted it won't revert back into unproductive edit warring. Giovanni33 18:43, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When a page is locked, there's no guarantee that it will be locked in the "good" version. If it were possible to decide, with full agreement, as to what is the good version, there'd be no need to lock it in the first place. The admin who locks the page obviously won't select a version that has just been vandalized, but apart from that, it's just the luck of the draw. That's why it can't be locked by an admin who is involved with the page, except in a case of repeated vandalism. (And now that we have the relatively-new possibility of semi-protecting a page, content dispute seems to be the only valid reason for full protection.) AnnH ♫ 21:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute Tags

message: The Beowulf mention is one of the weirdest items in this article.  Jkelly 16:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the Beowulf mention is a bit odd and misplaced, barely relevant, and quite unnecessary. If we must have it, we don't need AD or CE. Nobody who reads that section is going to think from it that Beowulf was written between 700 and 1000 BC. It's not needed for avoiding ambiguity, and it could trigger future edit wars. As far as I can see, the article doesn't use AD or CE anywhere else. The first date to appear in the article is the Council of Ephesus in 431, and that's just given as 431: nobody is going to think that it was 431 BC. I appreciate that Giovanni has been willing, lately, to allow AD, but I don't see why it should be necessary to have either AD or CE. And what I'm really arguing is that I don't see that it's necessary to have Beowulf in the first place, much as I love the word "hwæt"! AnnH ♫ 00:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that if one were to ask one hundred specialists in Christianity "If you had to summarise everything about Christianity in five thousand words, how many times would you mention Beowulf?" that the mean, mode and median would all be less than one.  Jkelly 00:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a study on the question to support this notion? Beowulf studies are of interest to scholars, among other thing, because of the very point I use it here for, to illustrate how very slow the adoption of Christianity was and how rooted the continued pagan beliefs were, despite all efforts make to eradicate them by the Christians. It's an intersting fact and very relevant to the point. Its better than simply stated its adoption was gradual. Use of ancient literary works sets a type of historical anchor in the time line, and whats noteworthy is the very late timeline that Beowulf established.Giovanni33 00:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

text: That was very clear Jkelly, thanks. I am aware of these poicies and I'm in full agreement with them, and my intention has always been to see that they are implemented here. However, I never stated that Beowulf is crucial to an understanding of the slow adoption of Christianity, much less that it is crucial to an understanding of Christianity. I merely use this well established literary work in the same way scholars invoved in Beowulf studies have, which does shed light on numerous points. One of those points is the one I use it here for. Its fair for you to ask for a citation that reflect this as true. So, I'll look for one. Giovanni33 02:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Jkelly. This task has now become moot, given that I was convinced by a point Myopic Bookworm made above regarding the usage of Beowulf here, so I decided to remove reference to it after looking into his point and finging it to be an accurate objection. While the point I use it for is indeed made, there are other theories about the mixture of pagan and Christian ideas it contains. Therefore, the point is not not sufficient strong for use in this context and is certainly not incontrovertible. Ineed, Beowulf in this connext is ambigious and there are unresolved questions still, which in part is what makes it intersting. Giovanni33 12:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Beowulf'' and mainstream views

message: Well, I figure it's in order that we play a little game, to make everything better.  Did you know that Wikipedia:Verifiability could be a game?  I'll start out, as the gamemaster, writing in  after every place where there should be a citation, irregardless of what POV it supports.  Then we play the first round where people change the  tags to harvard style referencing (II Romans 15:6-9) and any new information added in will HAVE to include citations just the same.  After the first week is up, any uncited material may be deleted.  For another week, people try to find citations for everything.  On the third week, we play a round of peer review..... where all citations are highly debated until a compromise is won (using citations this time) and including disinterested eyes of peer reviewers.  Then, on the fourth week we have some real fun, that's where we start using endnotes/footnotes1 as God intended2.
1. fictional reference
2. POV reference
What does everyone think?
KV 16:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:Verification the game! 

message: The passage: "Early in the 4th century, the Emperor Constantine the Great legalized Christianity. Theodosius I established an orthodox Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire near the end of the century."  Didn't Theodosius, with the exception of Judiasm,  make orthodox Christianity the only legal religion? Giovanni33 01:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe so, but could be wrong.  KHM03 (talk) 11:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked its accurate so I put it in with my latest changes below.Giovanni33 01:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Str1977 lastest changes tonight might be something I could live with. I only see some minor issues which I'll look over later and fix, but since on the whole it looks passable at first glance, I'll leave it as is. He managed to shrink it considerably but still kept it good enough that it just might due. I see the light getting brighter now at the end of this long tunnel.Giovanni33 12:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I am happy to hear this. Str1977 (smile back) 14:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked through everything carefuly and made my minor changes, most notably expanding diversity "Among Gentiles" to reflect the greater diversity that existised (i.e. Jewish Christian sects), by remvoing "among Gentiles," and refering to different versions that did flourish side by side. This also contains one of our disagreements over "truth" being a trusim, but I changed the language a bit. I think its important to state their view of truth and this also imparts and understanding that all these different groups did squable among each other. I also made a couple of minor other tweaks with language, and removed the "most notable being Gnostic Christians," but included a reference to them and the Arians later down, as examples of those that came to be regared as heresies. You will noticed that these small movements of passages makes for better flow and keeps the pharagraphs dealing with their respective points, without jumping or repeating ideas. The paraphraphs also look quite uniform, with his aesthetic pleasing for the eye. What I found out is that if one simply reads through the current version as it stands and note the  things that could be improved, and then only later going back to see the changes in contrast to the earlier version, as opposed to vise-versa, it helps to do away with the tendency for ownership over ones version, and this being less attached to any one version as being "your own" is key for the collaborative nature of this project.Giovanni33 01:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question, seeking comments

message: I just thought i'd ask, isn't it more correct to say that most Protestants consider it an issue of whether people have believed in Jesus as savior? Because to accept isn't necessarily belief in, and believe in is definently the more Biblical way of saying it, so I just thought i'd ask because I dunno if there was some sort of fight over that wording or not. Homestarmy 17:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not aware of a fight, but I'd say that you might 'believe' that Jesus is the Saviour without actually accepting him as your Saviour. (And 'More Biblical' can mean 'less easy to understand if you're not a Protestant'.) Myopic Bookworm 17:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I was thinking it could mean, see, im pretty sure there's nothing about simply acknowladging Jesus as savior saving one from sin, I mean, Jesus was pretty clear, "Whosoever believes in me....", so I just thought i'd point out the problem. If there's like no contention on this, i'd like to change "accept" to "believe in" :/. Homestarmy 19:59, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that would be a retrograde step. These days to 'believe in' usually means nothing more than 'acknowledge the existence of'. There's pretty good evidence that that was not the sense of the original, especially as it is contradicted in various parts of the New Testament. DJ Clayworth 20:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the sentence is talking about Protestant viewpoint, and believe in really is much more active than simply acknowladging the existance of something :/. I mean, I watch a whole lot of church TV type shows from protestant denominations or otherwise, and the two things I normally hear are something along the lines of "Accept Jesus into your heart" and "Believe in", both of which are more active than simply "accept". Homestarmy 20:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jesus as Savior

message: Besides restoring information that was removed without explanation, I noticed the citation that was given for this sentence (requested): "A church hierarchy seems to have developed by the time of the Pastoral Epistles, and was certainly formalized by the 3rd century "  did not support the assertion. The citation references the Council of Nicæa, which was in the first quarter of 4th century (325). The Pastrol Epistles was in the first century. If a proper citation is given to support this we can retore the origial sentence. Until then I modified it for accuracy based on the reference Str did provide as follows: "A church hierarchy was certainly formalized by the 4th century . Giovanni33 22:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: edits

message: "...at first Arianism was widespread (as among Goths and Vandals), but later succumbed to the orthodx Catholic Christianity, beginning with the Franks" 
"Succumbed?" Tom Harrison Talk 22:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Succumbed" might be the wrong word. I changed it because the word "prevailed" is also not neutral for the purpose. I'd welcome a change to a more neutral word choice. Giovanni33 22:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see you did effect a more neutral word choice, "converted," which is addmittedly better than either of the other two, both flip sides of the same problem. I don't agree, however, about removing the other section about "different versions," but I'll leave your change for now and consider it. Giovanni33 22:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seriously... 

message: I removed the following as wildly inaccurate:
In the UK some see the current government as discriminating against, and in some cases persecuting, Christians, as in the government's banning of public Christian celebrations (such as Christmas), and in their elevation of ethnic faiths and Neopagan festivals to greater importance than the Christian festivals. 
The government has not banned public christian celebrations. Some local councils with a political correctness gone mad stance have stopped people decorating their offices but the streets were full of nativity scenes, virtually every child under the age of 8 will have been in a nativity play and the TV was full of Christian christmas services. Currently there are easter cards in all the shops - some with rabbits on them but also religious versions and the Easter holiday is much looked forward to by all - even if just for a rest. All school children up to age 16 must take part in a daily act of worship that is "broadly and in the main" christian. The Christian church get tax breaks and there are many many state assisted church affilated schools. How is any of this persecution?
As for elevating other faiths and pagan festivals - the May day holiday is more to do with the Labour movement and there are no public holidays for Ede or Ramadan - the only religious festivals given public holidays are Christian ones. SophiaTalkTCF 08:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm entirely in agreement with the removal. Myopic Bookworm 10:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming what you say is true, then your right, it probably should be removed :/. Homestarmy 13:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The added sentence "Some also believe the media to be anti-Christian and to discriminate against Christians. [citation needed]" seems practically meaningless, since in an international context it is hardly possible to generalize about "the media". In parts of the US I'm told it can almost be hard to find a radio station that isn't overtly pushing evangelical Christianity, while by contrast the BBC is generally scrupulously neutral (but has a strong tradition of Christian broadcasting), and "the media" includes newspapers such as the Christian Science Monitor (neutral) and L'Osservatore Romano (explicitly pro-religious). So "some also believe" merely flags up that some people will believe practically any conspiracy theory going. Myopic Bookworm 14:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In im America and I find it very hard to find a radio station that does have evangelical Christianity, in fact, the closest one i've ever found is pretty well taken over by advertising. Homestarmy 14:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Secularization of Christmas would be the place to put any substantive material about it. I don't think it constitutes persecution. Maybe 'self-persecution', if there is such a thing. I suppose scrupulous neutrality is determined more by the listener than the speaker, and even then we have to choose what to be neutral about. Tom Harrison Talk 14:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since decorating your home and putting up Christmas trees is pagan anyway it would be hard to put not being allowed to decorate your office under the heading of Christian persecution. In the mass media here there is certainly no anti Christian bias - as I said above it has a special status in the school day enshrined in law so there is no way persecution or even suppression is taking place. The UK still has blasphemy laws that protect only Christianity but these are rarely used these days. Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF 23:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It does look like a general whinge and is not specific in anyway. Since this is a paragraph covering persecution not discrimination it really doesn't belong but I've stripped a lot out in the last day so I left it be to see what happened. If no one has a problem I'll take it out and suggest that specific cases are documented. Pansy Brandybuck AKA SophiaTalkTCF 10:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Persecution