Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 14

message: I have archived the last bit of the talk page as it was getting way too big to deal with. If there are bits that you want to use for a point about editing the article, please either link to the appropriate archive or cut and paste quote to here. Thanks. --Fire Star 火星 21:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: of course they would never allow it... when you use such POV language! Frade 11:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest archiving 

message: We need to get a new moderator.  I would volunteer; however,
the FLG cult members would never allow it.
Cj cawley 02:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: of course they would never allow it... when you use such POV language! Frade 11:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we please get back to the topics at hand? 

message: Omido, can you please post a link to that 45 page report? --HResearcher 10:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here it is: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ This is the new domain name, so please disregard the temporary link I provided above. Mcconn 16:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The organ harvesting allegation

message: Is the Taiwanese government supporting the Falun Gong?  Here is what I know, until the beginning of this year boxes of VCDs and pamphlets had shipped to my mother’s house from Taiwan every week.  They were then distributed in San Francisco by other practitioners.  Every practitioner I talked to told me that producing these material in Taiwan cost much less than anywhere else.  No matter how little money they cost someone still has to pay for them, but when I ask who is paying no one knows.  Can you tell me why for the last four years (at least) huge quantities of Falun Gong propagandist material were produced and shipped from Taiwan and no one knows who is paying for them?  
I have a friend who is working for San Francisco Examiner, a free newspaper.  Three years ago he estimated that it costs about $250,000 per month to run the Epoch Times, a nationwide free newspaper which had no ads in its first two years.  Who is paying?  Practitioners I talked to told me that some rich practitioners in real state business have been paying for it but again no one knows their names.  Also it is well known in San Francisco Chinatown that those elderly people protesting in front of Chinese consulate five days a week have been paid about $50 a day.  The Falun Gong seems to have a very deep pocket, who is behind it?  Many people believe it is the Taiwanese government some believe it is the CIA?  What do you believe, aliens from Mars?  --Samuel Luo 07:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Falun Gong people seem to have a endless supply of material for free distribution, and many of these material are highly political.  The "Nine Commentary On the CPC" VCDs and books are good exmples. These political propaganda are calling for the downfall of the Chinese governmnet.  Producing the VCDs cost some money but what is more costly is the documentary contained in the VCD, who is paying for the producion of this film?  Also the books are printed in good quality which certainly cost a lot of money, who is paying for them?  So, these material are coming from Taiwan that explains everything.  --Mr.He 20:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is a prevalent view in the Chinese community, at least here in Australia, that FLG is supported in some way by the Taiwanese government. For example, the recent defector Chen Yonglin defected with FLG support, and now he is popping up at events held by the present Taiwanese regime (that is, officials affiliated with the Democratic Progressive Party). I am not saying that this is evidence of financial backing, but that is certainly how many overseas Chinese view the situation. --Sumple (Talk) 10:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can tell you that I am a practitioner from Australia, and I have not been involved with things for a very long time. I gradually came to understand what Falun Gong was about and my involvement grew over time. Everything, all materials, posters, events, everything I came across, was paid for by practitioners directly. I have personally put several hundred Australian dollars toward fliers. A doublesided piece of A4 paper costs 1c AUD. For example, one event cost $400 AUD in papers, and several practitioners all contributed. I´ve only been really involved for six months, doing things. People have jobs and they earn money, jobs in the government with decent wages. Those who understand what Falun Gong is in this period of time, and once I came to understand, would not bat an eyelid at giving over a lot of money for this cause. Furthermore, those in China do not bat an eyelid at the thought of brutal torture and a painful death. Maybe the thought of a Falun Gong practitioner now would be "what else have I got to do with the money I earn?" Of course, some people have families and they must look after them. Part of being a practitioner is learning the meaning of responsibility and certainly all practitioners, and Falun Gong in this period of time, is strictly being responsible to themselves and to this society. You are unable to understand the mentality of these people, but I can tell you that in my experience all money that I saw changing hands was between practitioners and printing houses. -- 0:59:04, 7 of August, 2006
You guys are really "digging into a bulls horn". You can gather all the "facts" you want, but you'll never prove anything with this argument. Why? Because it's simply not true. Again, I don't really feel the need to say much about this. No one gets paid any money to protest in front of the Chinese embassy. That's a total lie and, like the rest of your argument, you'll only waste your time trying to prove it. As for materials, there are practitioners in all professions (including graffic design, software engineering, programing, etc.) so as long as we've got the time and the resources (these days you don't need many resources to create a video like that of the nine commentaries) we can do pretty much anything we need. No one has to do anything. It's only because practitioners believe firmly in the cause that they do what they do. As for Sujiatun, I don't personally know all the details (in terms of the Malasian owner relationship), however, the sources never came from Falun Gong practitioners (we merely reported it). So if you think they're lying you can't say that it's Falun Gong practitioners who are lying. This aside, independant and reputable investigators who know a lot more than anyone here does about this whole thing have found these sources credible. Again, I suggest that you actually read the Kilgour and Matas report. It seems that you hold onto your opinion rather blindly (just my perspective). Mcconn 15:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Practitioners have contributed money for printing leaflets, but they have not paid for the boxes of VCDs and booklets from Taiwan nor did they pay for the Epoch Times, the radio network Sound of Hope and the satellite television station New Tang Dynasty.  Mcconn, it is true that we don’t have any evidence to back our claim but don’t you find it interesting that no practitioner can provide evidence to relieve our suspicion?      --Samuel Luo 07:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen the boxes from Taiwan full of Dafa material.  I have also asked who pays for this, and the answer is the practitioners pay for it.  I have been at a few meetings where practitioners put out a lot of money to get boxes of Dafa material shipped to them.  Some practitioners are well off that they can spend a few hundred each month on material or have a business to make things such as the VCD's or do some small print runs.  Fa conferances are often funded by the hosting practitioners.  This is normal for groups like this.  JW, Mormons and Moonies all pay for thier material to hand out too.  After all, buying materials and handing them out is part of being a practitioner, and somewhat expected. --Otomo 23:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is Financially supporting the Falun Gong??? 

message: I would like to ask everyone involved here to quickly read through the requirements at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. We will be requesting a neutral, official mediator in a non-partisan request to go over the dispute and suggest a plan to go forward. This is the next step in the dispute resolution process. In this step, there are no good guys or bad guys, just disagreement. To insist that anyone is wrong at this stage will derail the process, so I am asking forbearance from everyone while we make this request. Please comment below, I propose making the request in 5 days time if we can get a consensus to move forward with it. --Fire Star 火星 16:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a misunderstanding about a request he made about this page and he ended up being temporarily blocked a couple of days ago, apparently. Understandably, he probably isn't likely to be willing to continue at this point. Part of why I proposed a 5 day discussion period was to see if he would come back voluntarily. If not (again, understandably) then we still have an article dispute to resolve.  --Fire Star 火星 17:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, let's go for official mediation in 5 days.  I think we should point out to the mediator that Covenant has already created a "To Do" list and that we should proceed according to the list.  Also, my understanding is that technically Wikipedia does not require a consensus in order to request mediation. In other words, there may be a hold out who is against mediation, but we can still go ahead and request it anyway. --Tomananda 19:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is true, even one editor can make the request. The more of us who participate the request, the easier and quicker it will be to get a mediator to sign on, though. Interestingly, the head of the mediation committe is the same Admin that temp-blocked Covenant. --Fire Star 火星 20:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: CovenantD has done a lot on Falun Gong pages; I hope he comes back.  But if he chooses not to return we should definitely seek a formal mediator.  Firestar has set the deadline on August 8th.  On that day I propose that the article be restored to this version 22:28, 6 July 2006.   --Samuel Luo 21:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Requests for mediation]] 

message: The persecution in China is real, and you yourself know that.. why do you support that most cruel persecution? Could a person with a bit of goodness in his heart do such a thing? Calm down and look inside... Why do you hate people who cultivate truth, compassion and endurance? What is it that makes you hate zen-shan-ren? Could it be good? 
Even after reading all the lies spread by the CCP, people know Falun Gong is good the moment they see the lecture videos..  or meet a practitioner.. they can objectively feel the compassion and goodness.. 
You may believe that the picture of the world formed by your senses is the truth... but isnt that blind belief in your own notions? The truth can only be objectively understood through cultivation practice.. only in the absence of notions and attachments can the truth be understood.. Whether you believe it or not.. the cosmos carries immense wisdom... it has its characteristic.. which may be put in human terms as zen-shan-ren.. the dao school cultivates zhen.. the buddha school cultivates shan - grand compassion towards all sentient beings.. 
Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ and all true masters pointed flaws in us which we must eliminate if we are to assimilate to the cosmic characterisitc.. as you progress in cultivation you understand things yourself... you know certain things are bad and goes against your own true nature and the characterisitc of the Cosmos... you made a big issue saying that homosexuality is not considered an upright human behaviour... how could it be? but that doesnt mean the person himself is bad.. What does the Bible say on that? What does the Buddhist scriptures say? As long as a person can realize there are flaws within himself.. and that he must completely eliminate such things that goes against his own true nature he can practice cultivation... but if he thinks I've been like this for as long as i can remember and this is me, he is going down with those things.... they turn against all upright teachings , what Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha taught... they tell themselves Gautama Buddha and Jesus Christ were making things up... and even slander the teachings.. what are they doing to themselves?
When Falun Gong grew so quickly in popularity in China some people who made A living out of teaching qi gong started to slander Falun Gong.. because of their selfish fears.. they dont even remotely suspect what they are doing to themselves by slandering a true cultivation way.... 
People when they listen to the lectures and spend time with  practitioner know Falun Dafa is not something ordinary.... and the faith practitioners have in Falun Dafa is solid like a diamond and unshakable as it comes from cultivation practice, rational understanding, and innumerable objective experiences.. 
Some with a lot of karma feel terrified when they hear zhen-shan-ren ... why is it so? Think about it if a person wants to coverup and support the killing of innocents what is he carrying within himself? and what about a person who supports the killing of those who cultivate zhen-shan-ren? What kind of person is he? 
We must look inwards with sincereity and understand what we have become and what our true self is.. 
Dilip rajeev 05:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok you are again telling us that the Falun Dafa is the most righteous teaching and practitioners are the most righteous people on earth.  In this case why is that every time I want to show the Master’s writing to the world you guys always try to stop me?  His words are the most holy, right? --Samuel Luo 07:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  None of us have ever done such a thing. I have repeatedly said that I hope all editors go through all the teachings of Falun Dafa. All teachings being available for free download. You are taking a semi quote..completely taking it out of context and distorting the meaning.. and giving fancy interpretations to it.. so as to justify your absurd claims.
202.83.32.248 03:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Silly argument!  I am not giving any interpretation to Li's teachings.  Li's words speak for themselves and the fact that Falun Gong practitioners refuse to acknowledge what Li says is an outrageous lie...a lie which Li himself has created by saying you must not speak at the higher levels when talking to ordinary people.  Why not?  Your role as Fa-rectification Dafa disciples is to save us ordinary people, isn't it?  Think about it!  If you don't speak the truth about what Li teaches, how are you ever going to save us?  However, I do have compassion for the bind Li has put you in.  I hope that some day there may be just one practitioner out there who hasn't been totally indoctrinated yet into the Falun Gong party line who might just benefit from reading these discussions.  --Tomananda 05:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tomananda and Samuel, 

message: At least there are more real world people now.
Cj cawley 13:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's get back to the mediator 

message: Greetings everyone. Tomorrow is the day I will submit a request to the mediation committee for a formal mediator for us. These people have done this sort of thing before, and will hopefully help us get towards an article we all (or most of us) agree with. As in Wikipedia:Requests for mediation, the request we submit must be neutral and simply point out that we have a problem, not what one or another group of editors believe the problem(s) is (or are). Please sign below (put a # sign before your signature) if you think this is a good idea. Thanks! --Fire Star 火星 12:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no poll or consensus on this version.  It was CovenantD’s decision. He was suppose to provide two passages, one sums up the words of practitioners and the other addresses the concern of other editors.  Since he left without the second passage to provide a balance, the article  should be reversed. . --Yueyuen 19:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The protected version isn't an endorsed version. We are (hopefully) very close to getting a new mediator, so we should wait and let that person decide. If a mediator doesn't materialise, then we go to the Arbcom for a binding settlement. --Fire Star 火星 20:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for mediation 

message: Why do you attack Falun Gong? Is it that, the last thing you want to see for the world is peace, meditation, healthy living, and improved moral standards? 
Falun Dafa teaches kindess, Zhen-Shan-Ren, and there are strict xinxing (moral character) requirements. Suicide is forbidden. 
The persecution against Falun Gong is not even a very important issue...everyone the world over knows it is true, it cannot be denied that Falun Dafa practitioners are suffering in China. What we are trying to clear from your brain and your thinking is that Falun Dafa practitioners don't kill themselves, and Falun Dafa is not harmful. It doesn't make people go crazy, it only stabalizes people, from the very core of their being. I have undergone a great change since I have begun to study Dafa... I even used to take drugs, but now I just simply strive to work hard, be kind, and improve my xinxing no matter the situation I encounter. 
Samuel Woo, 
Why would you believe in the wicked CCP ? They have killed 80 million Chinese people over their history... i.e. Cultural Revolution, Gang of Four, Persecution of Intellectuals, 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre Persecution of Christians, Persecution of Buddhists, Persecution of Falun Gong. Can you deny that these things did not happen throughout history? So why would you believe in the CCP today? They have always lied, then tried to reform, kill, promote athieism and violence, lie some more, and then try to win back the public through shameful actions. Did you even know that 12 Million Chinese People have quit the CCP? It is a dying beast...20,000 more Chinese people quit everyday. The CCP is afraid of Falun Gong and the Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party. Have you read this article yet? It won a Pulitzer Prize for journalism. I suggest you read it soon.
http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/4/12/13/n746020.htm
The CCP has always been simply a gang of liars and crooks. Why are all the billionaires in China CCP officials, while everyone else is dirt poor? The tide is turning in the world and on the CCP... You should re-examine your thinking and take a look at the facts more carefully. Don't get lost in wordgames, look at the big picture. 
The Heavens Eliminate the CCP.
Falun Dafa Hao!
--—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.156.180 (talk • contribs) 
I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who does not use
a real name especially after that rant.
As for the CCP, you mean that they are just like most governments.  How many people has the U.S. killed?  For both
good & bad reasons.  You can start with our own civil war &
go from there.
You are not going to silence Sam.  You are not going to silence
me either.  Also, there are more & more of us each day.
Please explain to me what good FLG has done?  Have they built a hospital? - No. (We should add a section for that) Donated to anything other than their own cause? - No. Destroyed families? - Yes.  Caused the deaths of thousands? - Yes.  Any rational person would get the idea.
I am in the middle of a multi year divorce and I still find
money to help people in need.  I have donated to The Tsunami,
9/11, Katrina, St Jude, Kid's school, etc.  This is after all
of the legal bills.
They preach self & death.  Please explain to me how any of that is "good".  Truth - their version of it.  Compassion - Do this or die.  Forebearance - I am going to hound you until you convert.  No matter how stupid I think you are.
As for the CCP, their economy is booming, 1 million are being taken out of poverty a month, etc.  You can think evil destructive thoughts all you want, but with numbers like those they are not going anywhere anytime soon.  Russia fell because the economy collapsed.  Communism was an afterthought.
Cj cawley 11:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Samuel Woo''' 

message: Let me introduce myself.  I am a long time practitioner of Buddhism, and am well read in Asian classics.  I read Mr. Li’s book when it was first published in 1999 and since then have attended an “Fa” conference as well as many study groups and exorcize meetings.  I feel qualified to make a few statements.
Many of the things Mr. Li says it not all that different from what controversial Tibetan Lamas and Rinpoches say about being Gods and rectification of the Cosmic Law, curing illnesses, and saving the world.  Though, one has to read these other books, listen to their lectures and even attend their meetings to know this.  Since the bulk of Dafa practitioners are from mainland China and only know the Communist sponsored Buddhism, it therefore is not reasonable for the Dafa students to know these things or be aware that others have said the same as Mr. Li says.  
Like the radical Muslims or controversial Tibetan groups, the majority of disciples are drawn to the group and teacher primarily because the political views and direction the teacher and the teachings state.  It is apparent that Mr. Li is a critic of Communist philosophies and by brining up pre-communist cultural beliefs (local Chinese religion and superstitions) he was “bucking the system” so to speak.  
The pro-democracy movement that was crushed by the Communist in 1989 just went underground till and emerged in the Chi-Gong movements, Falun Gong was only just one of many.  The largest Chi-gong school was Zhong Gong, a school headed by Hong Bao Zhang, where they had eight postures of exercise, over 100 centered scattered all over china and thousands of small businesses that the disciples worked in.  Like Falun Gong, Zhong gong supported a pre-communist political thought and offered a haven for the pro-democracy movement.  Many of the criticisms Mr. Li has of Chi-Gong are clearly aimed at Zhong Gong.  The use of these criticisms and malicious innuendo towards rival teachers is very traditional in Chinese martial arts.  Like Falun Gong, Zhong Gong as well as the numerous other Gong Schools made claims to cure illnesses, achieve mystical powers and heavenly rewards.  Though Falun Gong tends to use an “end of days” approach to imply immediacy and urgency to the teachings.
In 1999 when the Communist banned Falun Gong, Zhong Gong as well as many other schools where shut down as well. This is what is know by Falun Gong as “The persecution” In fact Zhong Gong as well as Falun Gong and so many other Chi Gong schools lost all of their centers and business to the Chinese Communist.  The real purpose of the banishment may have been a land and business grab by Chinese communist officials as well as stamping out what they saw as a threat by the pro-democracy movement.
Today from what I see of Falun Gong is mostly a political movement to criticize the CCP in China and to bring the worlds anger upon them for the gross human rights abuses that occur there.  Most of the Falun Gong disciples are involved with some sort of political work that they term “clarifying the truth”.  Staffers in Washington DC have stated that the Falun Gong lobbyist are effective and well organized.  The newspaper “The Epoch Times” has done well to publish the Falun Gong propaganda when the main stream media ignored them and created NTDTV as a way to beam the political message to China.  The recent “Nine commentaries of the communist party” that just about all Falun Gong members hold up right next to the book “Zhuan Falun” clearly indicate that the movement is primarily political based using the spiritual foundations outlined by Mr. Li to give support and encouragement to the students to continue their political work.  Even recently Mr. Li stated that just doing the exercises and meditations are not enough, one must “clarify the truth” and that is code for being involved in the groups political missions.
Many in the group flatly deny being political.  Though they use a very narrow definition of what being political is.  It is sort of a word game, one that I find childish and the sort of games you find scoundrels playing at.
Now as with all political movements and organizations that have a top down structure of power, where the corrupt and self-serving are attracted.  Falun Gong is no exception to this problem, even in several lectures Mr. Li states that the bad actions of a few individuals has caused problems for him to no ends.  Falun Gong even did have its schism in 1998 with Ms Wang in Hong Kong who declared that the Cosmic spirit left Mr. Li and came to her.  The Hong Kong group was irreparable split and from what I know has not reformed to this day.  I suspect such issues are still occurring and there are individuals who exploit the Falun Gong members as a marketing base, for free labor, and for their own gain, all in the name of “clarifying the truth”.
Today, I see Falun Gong struggles with an identity crises.  Is it a political group or spiritual group?  This issue tears at the hearts of many disciples leading many in to a mental catharsis, and a spiritual crisis.  Some leave Falun Gong, others just stay at the fringes of the group not daring go further in.  
Lastly, as Falun Gong does attract the corrupted because of its power scheme, it also attracts the desperate.  Folks who are terminally ill or who suffering from chronic menial illnesses will find their way to such groups like Falun Gong.  The terminally ill are desperate to do anything to live, and those who are mentally ill do desperate things (think Heavens Gate, Charles Manson, Jim Jones).  Though, you will be hard pressed to find any group that lacks these types of people because these groups are comprised of humans with all the human flaws and conditions we have.
As for the things Mr. Li says and his claims.  It is not at all uncharacteristic of those who engage in Chinese folk spirituality to do such.  If you where to read the stories of some Tibetan Lamas and Rinpoches, you find that they embellish and fabricate their histories as well, even to degrees of absurdity.   You also see this in Daoism with the embellishment of Lau Tzu and teachers after him as well as in Buddhism, where Ch’an teachers outright fabricate their lineage, and in some cases forge documents and create entire make believe temples, teachers and even Sutras.
As for those who fanatically defend Mr. Li, they do so for their own selfish reasons and purposes.  Already Mr. Li has said that many of his disciples cannot accept criticism and that is a problem they have to deal with.  He also told them that he can deal with his critics himself.  Never the less, people will defend someone or something only for their own self engrandizement, sense of purpose and of course crushing their own doubts.  It is easier to attack others doubts than to deal with your own and that is the sort of fanaticism that beings troubles to no end.  
Ill continue watching this movement and see where it goes.  I suspect Falun Gong/Falun Dafa will eventually pull itself apart as the purposes and goals become to contradictory to maintain under one house.
--Otomo 19:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese democracy movement and Falun Gong 

message: You apparently are just repeating CCP's tales... You dont seem to have the slightest clue on what you are talking about. 
There are reasons why Falun Dafa cultivators clarify the truth about the persecution to people and that has nothing to do with "politics". When someone carries bad thoughts against a true teaching and slanders the Dharma isnt he accumulating terrible sins? Where is his being heading for? 
Falun Dafa prcatitioners are letting the world know of the terrible and most inhumane persecution innocent people are facing in China.. hoping to bring an end to these unspeakable atrocities.. and you label that "politics"? 
People like you think Buddhist scriptures are something for intellectual studies... you study it like some kind of philosophy and then you are "qualified" for whatever.. 
The Dalai Lama has said Falun Dafa is "very good".
Gautama Buddha himself prophesized that during this period of time the Great Law (Da Fa ) would spread far and wide.. A Sutra refers to the teaching by the name "the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )" and "the Thus Come One's sudden teaching"
Alas! In the evil time
Of the Dharma-Ending Age,
Living beings' blessings are slight,
It is difficult to train them.
Far indeed from the sages of the past!
Their deviant views are deep.
Demons are strong, the Dharma is weak;
Many are the wrongs and injuries.
Hearing the door of the Thus Come One's sudden teaching,
They hate not destroying it as they would smash a tile.
The doing is in the mind;
The body suffers the calamities.
There's no need for unjust accusations that shift the blame to others.
If you don't wish to invite the karma of the unintermittent [hell],
Do not slander the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )
- Gautama Buddha
(SE 62-63) 
It is only natural that people who consider themselves "qualified" 
by reading some scriptures as if they were some made-up specualtive philosophy appear during in this period of time.. ... I request you to read this Sutra .. 
:Thus I have heard. At one time the Buddha was in the state of Kushinagara. The Tathagata was to enter Nirvana within three months and the bhikshus and Bodhisattvas as well as the great multitude of beings had come to the Buddha to pay homage to the Buddha and to bow in reverence. The World Honored One was tranquil and silent. He spoke not a word and his light did not appear. Worthy Ananda bowed and asked the Buddha, "O Bhagavan, heretofore whenever you spoke the Dharma, awesome light would naturally appear. Yet today among this great assembly there is no such radiance. There must be a good cause for this, and we wish to hear the Bhagavan's explanation."
:The Buddha remained silent and did not answer until the request had been repeated three times. He then told Ananda, "After I enter Nirvana, when the Dharma is about to perish, during the Evil Age of the Five Turbidities (see Five Turbidities), the way of demons will flourish. Demonic beings will become Shramanas they will pervert and destroy my teachings.... They will lack compassion and they will bear hatred and jealousy even among themselves.
:"At that time there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will reverently and diligently cultivate immaculate virtue. They will be respected by all people and their teachings will be fair and egalitarian. These cultivators of the Fa will take pity on the poor, they will be mindful of the aged, and they will save and give counsel to those people they find in difficult circumstances. They will at all times exhort others to worship and to protect the sutras and images of the Buddha. They will do meritorious deeds, be resolute and kind and never harm others. They will forsake their bodies for others' benefit. They will hold no great regard for themselves but will be patient, yielding, humane, and peaceful.
:"If such people exist, the hordes of demonic bhikshus will be jealous of them. The demons will harass them, slander and defame them, expel them from their midst and degrade them. They will ostracize the good monks from the monastic community. Thereafter these demons will not cultivate the Way-virtue. Their temples and monastic buildings will be vacant and overgrown with weeds. For want of care and maintenance their Way-places will drift into ruin and oblivion. The demonic bhikshus will only be greedy for wealth and will amass great heaps of goods. They will refuse to distribute any of it or to use it to gain blessings and virtue.
.
.
.
:"When the lives of these demonic bhikshus come to an end their essential spirits will fall into the avici hells. Having committed the five evil sins, they will suffer successive rebirths as hungry ghosts and as animals. They will know all such states of woe as they pass on through aeons as numerous as sands on the banks of the Ganges River. When their offenses are accounted for they will be reborn in a border land where the Triple Jewel is unknown.
:"When the Dharma is about to disappear, women will become vigorous and will at all times do deeds of virtue. Men will grow lax and will no longer speak the Dharma. ( According to the Dao school and The Book of Changes this precisely is the period of reversal of yin and yang )
:Those genuine Shramanas they see will be looked upon as dung and no one will have faith in them. When the Dharma is about to perish, all the gods will begin to weep. Rivers will dry up and the five grains will not ripen. Epidemic diseases will frequently take the lives of multitudes of people. The masses will toil and suffer while the local officials will plot and scheme. No one will adhere to principles. Instead, all people will be ever more numerous like the sands of the ocean-bed. Good persons will be hard to find; at most there will be one or two. As the aeon comes to a close, the revolution of the sun and the moon will grow short and the lifespan of people will decrease. Their hair will turn white at the age of forty years. Because of excessive licentious behavior they will quickly exhaust their seminal fluids and will die at a young age, usually before sixty years. As the life-span of males decreases, that of females will increase to seventy, eighty, ninety, or one hundred years.
:"The great rivers will rise up in disharmony with their natural cycles, yet people will not take notice or feel concern. Extremes of climate will soon be taken for granted. . . .
:"Then there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will gather together in an unprecedented assembly because they will have all been harried and pursued by hordes of demons. They will no longer dwell in the assemblies, but the Three Vehicles will retreat to the wilderness. In a tranquil place, they will find shelter, happiness, and long life. Gods will protect them and the moon will shine down upon them. The Three Vehicles will have an opportunity to meet together and the way will flourish. However, within fifty-two years the and the , the Standing Buddha Samadhi, will be the first to change and then disappear. The twelve divisions of the canon will gradually follow until they vanish completely, never to appear again. Its words and texts will be totally unknown ever after. The precept sashes of Shramanas will turn white of themselves. When my Dharma disappears, it will be just like an oil lamp which flares brightly for an instant just before it goes out. So too, will the Dharma flare and die. After this time it is difficult to speak with certainty of what will follow.
.I al
.
.
:Worthy Ananda addressed the Buddha, "What should we call this Sutra and how shall we uphold it?"
:The Buddha said, "Ananda, this Sutra is called . Tell everyone to propagate it widely; the merit of your actions will be measureless, beyond reckoning."
:When the fourfold assembly of disciples heard this Sutra, they grieved and wept. Each of them resolved to attain the true Path of the Supreme Sage. Then bowing to the Buddha, they withdrew. 
(SS I xiv-xvi)
202.83.32.90 04:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donot Slander a true cultivation way 

message: In the main article in subsection “Origins” second paragraph, it is stated:
At the beginning, Li introduced himself to the public as a Qigong master. In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in the Chinese version of his book, Zhuan Falun, before 1996, it is claimed that Li(1) was guided by more than 20 masters of both the Buddhist and Taoist cultivation ways since the age of four. Li’s first teacher introduced him to the cultivation of truth, compassion and forbearance (zhen, shan, ren). At age of eight, he acquired supernatural powers. He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking "Nobody can see me.” Two other supernatural powers were his ability to control people’s movements by thoughts and to move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone. The biography(2) also claimed Li has discovered the truth of the universe…the origin of humankind and foresaw the development and future of the humankind.[6]
I like to dispute the Origins, second Paragraph by the following points:
(1) “it is claimed that Li” needs to be changed to “Mr. Li writes about himself” as it is stated now, it is not clear that Mr. Li himself is making these claims and that no third party is making them.
(2) please change “biography” to “autobiography” since “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” is in fact written by Mr. Li himself. 
--Otomo 22:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, Otomo... sources please? The biography was not written by Mr. Li. Mcconn 06:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origions dispute part 2 

message: Why was my book deleted?  It's a real situation with real people, not a case study.  Also, we should add other similar
cases.  I know of at least one.  There are probably more.
We should add a section about the FLG split.  There should be articles about the woman in Hong Kong.  I had forgotten about
that and it's a good point.
Cj cawley 00:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two things 

message: I have not seen another website post deaths of people quite like
www.clearwisdom.net.  Death is not a good thing.  The general theme
is: They harmed Dafa & died a horrible death.  Chapter & verse.
Time & time again.  We should also consider a section in the article
for this.  To be fair, we should include the deaths that the CCP has attributed to FLG.
Well, according to the ex, I have harmed Dafa.  I survived 9/11, Flight 587 (crashed on both sides of the house - literally), etc.
172.161.252.202 22:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you identify yourself?  It sounds like your ex wife is a Falun Gong practitioner, so you can possibly provide some addtitional insight into how the Falun Gong breaks up families. Practitioners deny this is the case, so your input might help.  --Tomananda 02:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No doubt he's the good ol' Cj cawley. ---Olaf Stephanos 09:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, Tomananda, I've been really busy, and your message is worth time and devotion. I'll try to deal with it later this week. ---Olaf Stephanos 08:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In response to "Daniel" 

message: I have a new photograph which I would like to add to the article when it becomes unprotected. – Kaihsu 20:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  new photograph 

message: We should have the pictures of all deaths related to FLG.
We can put the CCP material right next to the FLG material.
That's also fair.  This way, we can get a full body count.
Truth, compassion & forebearance is probably up more than
3,000 by now.
Cj cawley 10:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another good idea 

message: I do not know about all of you, but actually, I am very tired of talking about the persecution against Falun Gong, I am tired of reading www.clearwisdom.net reports of deaths, and I am tired of seeing pictures of Falun Gong practitioners tortured to death. It is good to expose the persecution and eliminate the evil, but who wants to see those pictures all the time anyway? All of those practitioners who are still being tortured in China simply have not been able to free themselves from the evils den. We should help them of course when possible, but it seems to me they are mostly just simply enduring the evil's persecution as far as I can tell. They need to step up with their righteous thoughts to escape the persecution. Master Li has even said that even some new practitioners have developed supernormal powers, they can use these to escape the evil's persecution.   
As far as I know, that evil political party doesn't even have any material worth looking at. It made some videos, and then Falun Dafa practitioners ripped them apart with anaylsis and rational thinking, exposing all of the loopholes and lies. 
Case in point,
http://www.falsefire.com/index1.htm
Who has seen this video yet? The Tiananmen Square Self-Immolation against Falun Dafa was the biggest hoax of the century. It was like a bad April Fools joke.....
The False Fire video is full of fallacies and speculation. --Yenchin 05:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Such a Good Idea 

message: What about if only users who are signed in can use this page, and if a user abuses this privilege, he would be reprimanded, possibly unable to edit other protected sites, or maybe banned? Jesus geek 16:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, to answer to your question, i believe a punishment such as banning or being reprimanded, just like you suggested, should be applied to posters who repeatedly break the Wikipedia code of conduct. For example, engaging in personal attacks (quoting directly from wikipedia): 
"Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme"
Or also creating an environment of "incivility" by:
"Calling someone a liar, or accusing him/her of slander or libel. Even if true, such remarks tend to aggravate rather than resolve a dispute."
Which, even though its a petty example of how to create an environment of incivility, if you do it repeatedly and add a few posts here and there like "We dont need yor fancy answers" (reffering to FG editors). "How dishonest practitioners are!" Or calling someone a "scoundrel" or saying FG practitioners are "corrupted" and accusing them of "being deceptive". Also saying Falun Gong practitioners are "murderers", categorizing our arguments as "silly" and "false" "a rant" oh and also reffered to as "bull..." go figure. Then it becomes a rather significant matter. As you can see, there have been quite a few of those examples lately. What is even extremely ironic to the point of being sarcastic and maybe even a little funny is that after all this, they demand us to "refrain from personal attacks"...right.
Im not saying FG practitioners behaviour is perfect or anything, we also make our mistakes of course, but there is a very significant difference between both behaviours, at least we dont go around posting all the time calling them liars, or "people who conceal the truth" and dismissing their own views and opinions because "They are FG practitioners" and "FG has a big credibility problem" and cataloguing it as pure lies. Even though there are two different parties involved in the making of this article, there should be some neutrality, going to the extreme (being extreme pro-FG or extreme anti-FG) isnt helping at all. If we FG editors believe a critic is not reporting Mr. Li's quotes appropriately and we all agree on this, then it is our point of view and our words should be listened too. Then after we give them our opinion of what they propose, if they listen to our point of view then we will definetly consider reaching an agreement through dialogue. The same goes the other way. 
I understand any of the editors can get frustrated, wether the critics or the FG editors, but that doesnt mean almost each and every of the critics replies need to reflect that frustration through a direct offense against the other party. If you notice the environment we have right now on the talk page, it is all about "Fighting the evil cult of FG". There is no respect among the editors and this way we cannot work on the talk page, and this is the real reason why we urgently need an official mediator. But i strongly suggest we modify our behavior wether the mediator arrives or not so that we can make at least as much progress as we can on the article before or until he/she arrives.
If we respect each others point of views and arguments whenever we disagree with them and discuss it while keeping a cool head im sure we can all reach to an agreement on anything and perhaps there wont even be a need for official mediation, but to me, right now, considering the situation, id say it seems rather utopic. So then is banning or reprimanding the only solution to this problem if the official mediator doesnt arrive?.--Andres18 06:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Question 

message: July, 2000 - Splits Emerging
One year after Beijing Communist Party banned Falungong as "an evil cult", the spiritual movement outside the mainland appears to be splitting into factions.  
A number of overseas followers are now supporting Hongkong-based Peng Shanshan as the sect's new master, replacing Li Hongzhi, who lives in New York.
Quoted from the Hong Kong Sect:
We have only one great universal law and one master.
But the master can accommodate in different physical bodies, Ms Tao Hua Lian, a Chinese-Australian disciple of Ms Peng, told the Hongkong iMail on Friday.
At the early stage, the master has shown up in (the physical body of) Li Hongzhi. Now Master Peng Shanshan is born, said Ms Tao, adding that Ms Peng declined to be interviewed.
Hong Kong, the former British colony, reverted to Chinese rule in 1997, and whoever controls the group there has a chance of influencing Falun Gong's development in the rest of China.
The assertion that the woman, Belinda Pang, 37, is the Lord of Buddhas has led to more of a cat fight than catharsis for the movement, which went underground on the mainland after Beijing banned the group a year ago. Mr. Li, who is now based in New York, and Ms. Pang have traded accusations on competing Web sites.
The dispute began on May 11 -- celebrated as Buddha's birthday and, Mr. Li says, his birthday, too, though birth records in his hometown in China show otherwise. Ms. Pang, a tireless organizer in the Hong Kong chapter, organized a march through the city. Although only 24 people turned up, along the way most of them said they had experienced a vision of Ms. Pang seated in outer space while angels flew around her plucking flowers and dropping them to Earth. The flowers turned into raindrops when they hit the skin, said Mary Qian, one of those who said they saw the image.
Mr. Li was quick to denounce Ms. Pang on the official Falun Gong site, www.minghui.ca. (Please note that Mr. Li says some vicious things about Ms. Prang in his Advance Teachings lectures that is published. [link to spcific writings needed]
Ms. Pang, who has drawn 30 hard-core believers, said all recent messages from Mr. Li were fakes, because he has left to quietly watch practitioners and people in the world from a cliff somewhere in the United States, where he is pictured in his last photo posted on the Falun Gong Web site, in January
Prior to the split, Ms. Prang lead the Hong Kong Falun Gong group, tirelessling organizing and spearheading many of the groups events.
Media links about the split
Straits Times (Singapore), July 30, 2000
New York Times, Aug. 3, 2000
[http://www.falundafa.com.hk Falun Gong HK site
] Offline since the split.  No Honk Kong Falun Gong group has been able to form since the split.
--Otomo 17:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Tail of Two Masters 

message: Added page for
Peng Shanshan
We should create a page for Falun Gong Schism.
--Otomo 17:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pages added that relate to Falun Gong 

message: I am researching this issue as reported by
Peoples Daily Clumsy fraud, harmful heresy: PD commentary
I think that this issue needs to be explored and included on the pages.
--Otomo 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Li Hongzhi and the patent 

message: This page was completely made by the critics, how can there be any neutrality over this? also, the "Patent" subsection on the page which was "suggested" on this talk page, was actually added to that page too and nobody is doing anything about it. That means if you have the right to edit pages without consensus from both parties, then perhaps i feel i also have the right to do some edits on that page dont i?. Alright, ill "suggest" some neutral edits and since i want to respect the code of conduct from wikipedia (unlike you), ill let you give me your opinion on these edits, then we'll discuss about it, modify so that both parties can be satisfied about the result and  then ill post it on the talk page, im sure there will be no problem in doing so.
If you make edits without consulting all the involved editors, then think im being kind enough to ask for your opinion and some neutrality when posting my edits.
Apparently, i believe the critics objective is to make Mr. Li look like someone who is telling lies to everyone of their practitioners claiming to be a "divinity" and got caught in the process. This can be clearly seen since the second paragraph of introduction:
"But as reported by the Chinese government he was born on July 7, 1952; he “changed his date of birth to make it coincide with the birthday of Sakyamuni, the founder of Buddhism, in an attempt to show that he was the reincarnation of Sakyamuni,” the government claims".
If you are quoting the government made a direct accussation towards Mr. Li for "attempting to show that he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni" and even though we all know he never even said anything like it, then i think you will have to include Falun Gong's opinion on this matter. Its very non neutral that you make a sentence saying "FG claims he was born on this day, but the government claims he was born on this other day because he is trying to show he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni"  This last added little detail already takes of the neutrality of the article. If you want to post it, then you let us voice our opinion on the matter. 
 
1. I would suggest "Whereas Falun Gong practitioners claim Mr. Li has never mentioned he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni and that the Chinese Government tried to mess with the birth dates to try to discredit him" Well...i guess its a start, id like to know what other FG editors think about this and how we can modify this suggestion to make it more accurate. From the critics id like to know if you agree with this suggestion and it subsecuent modifications or if you decide to erase that added detail on the above mentioned paragraph.
2. "No one seems to know who Master Li is and his followers conceal information about him, noted Nina Willdorf from Boston Phoenix. “Talk to several local practitioners, and certain patterns emerge." What in the world is this? directly accussing practitioners of lying and concealing information with no substantial evidence AND in a wikipedia article? This is outrageous and offensive, tell me now where is there any neutral point of views? where is the falun gong practitioners side on this part of the article? there is none, its only made by the critics. If edits such as the creation of this Wiki page are not made in consensus then its a violation of the rules, NPOV, how many times has this been said?. This sentence will be eliminated, if you do not want it eliminated then give us a really, really and i mean really good reason not to do it.
"No one knows much about Master Li's past or present, and followers are reluctant to discuss even what little they do know about him.”[3] Falun Gong’s official website, Clearwisdom.net, introduces the Master with a saintly sketch:". "Saintly sketch" this is so cynical and sarcastic that it even sounds a bit funny, you know, i think its pretty bold of you to go around creating these kind of wikipages and not only making them partialized but even attacking FG practitioners and insulting us directly and not happy with that, you add a large dosis of sarcasm and irony. In a personal note: The fact that you spoke with some practitioners and they seemed reluctant to speak about what they know from Mr. Li doesnt mean any practitioner you come up to will answer the same way, thats generalizing way too much, it even sounds unreasonable and implies we are in some way embarassed or ashamed to speak about our own practice and we conceal the truth about it, thats a very wrong judgement. This other sentence will also be eliminated, of course, but if you want, we can leave the part that says "No one knows much about Mr. Li's past or present" if you really want to say we are reluctant to speak about him then directly make it a claim from the critics and let us answer to it with our input. Things have to be fair.
"According to this biography at the age of four Li began his decades-long training that prepared him to be the greatest Master of all time" You know, i just read the biography and there isnt anywhere that says he was preparing himself to be the "greatest master of all time" so i will suppose this is another of your neverending sarcastic remarks.
"He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking “Nobody can see me!” The other two supernatural abilities the young Master acquired were controlling others’ movements by thoughts and teleportation—he could move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone." According to the biography, Mr. Li acquired many supernatural powers that do not limit themselves to just "controlling people's thoughts" and "Being invisible". Also, even though the biography states he could become invisible just by thinking it, adding to your paragraph that he could "become invisible simply by thinking "nobody can see me" sounds sarcastic too and ill tell you why: This sentence i just reffered to was written this way in order to contextualize one of Mr. Li's experiences in the environment of his childhood. So, since we are reffering to this biography in a more formal way and we are not intending to contextalize any element on our paragraph to create a proper environment in order to understand such experiences, i dont think it should be added this way or else it does tend to sound a bit sarcastic if you ask me.
I would suggest this quote "...at the age of eight, the young adept attained many supernatural powers" as an explanation to this matter. However, if youd like to include some of those stories and complicate things by going into detail about the supernatural powers then i think FG editors would have to explain their views on how supernatural powers exist and their logic according to FG in order to provide a proper, more neutral understanding that could show the reader why these stories have appeared on the biography and what is FG position regarding them.
"The article makes one point clear: all the trainings took place at night in secret locations where no one could witness them." whats the point of this? forgive me if im wrong but perhaps you are generalizing way too much. Besides, the training the first and second master gave him do not speak of anything related to night training. Appart from that, i dont see the relevance of this sentence.
"Despite the biography’s recounting of intensive, decades-long physical and moral training that only legendary saints and heroes undergo, it doesn’t provide the basic background information of Master Li’s life. Master Li apparently grew up in a vacuum."
I think i just got tired of repeating myself but ill tell you, statements like this are the ones that give off a really bad image of wikipedia and compromise its integrity, its called "vandalism" and if these statements and claims are not removed or modified as quickly as possible, we'll find a way to report this kind of behaviour. I guess i dont need to say this should be eliminated too. You have no idea how many wikipedia rules you just outrageously and carelessly broke with this little remark.
Not only are you issuing personal attacks, creating an environment of incivility on the context of the article, but you are also using weasel words in order to give the "illusion" of being neutral in three or two sentences along all the article. Quoted from wikipedia "Please avoid the temptation to use Wikipedia for other purposes, or to treat it as something it is not." and i believe you are using wikipedia in order to defame falun gong and speak ill of it instead of actually wanting to create an article. If you really wanted to create and article, you would also consult with the oppossite party when making edits and you would not be breaking the guidelines just like you have been doing for quite a while.
While looking at this Mr. Lihongzhi wiki page i realized not only did you violate all this other rules i mentioned before but i believe your edits and the sarcastic and ironic way you present them in general constitute an act of "vandalism" and it is a serious offense of wikipedia policies.
As stated by wikipedia's guidelines and code of conduct (which i recommend you read a bit) "Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought" we are not here to advertise or defame falun gong and even less to attack other editors and label them of liars and such.
To conclude i would like to add a quote concerning the critics behaviour on the wikipedia discussion page which has caused articles like this Wiki page from Li Hongzhi to appear.
Please take the time to read the following paragraph also quoted from wikipedia
"Wikipedia is not a battleground
Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hatred or fear. Making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals.
Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion. If a user acts uncivilly, uncalmly, uncooperatively, insultingly, harassingly, or intimidatingly towards you, this does not give you an excuse to do the same in retaliation. Either respond solely to the factual points brought forward and ignore its objectionable flavoring, or ignore the relevant message entirely.
When a conflict continues to bother you or others, adhere to the procedures of dispute resolution. There are always users willing to mediate and arbitrate disputes between others.
Also, do not create or modify articles just to prove a point..."
If you keep it up and the official mediation comitee rejects our petition in any way, im going to the Arbitration Comitee to report your behaviour and request a ban. If the official mediator arrives, you can be completely sure that i will report this behaviour to him/her in order to take proper action regarding this behaviour.--Andres18 19:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Li Hongzhi Wiki Page 

message: thumb|Falun Gong in New York City's ChinatownI don't have any opinion on the Falun Gong, I just want to know if I can put a photograph of practitioners in New York City I took today?  The main way I try to create value to Wikipedia is by contributing photographs, even for entries as mundane as Lettuce and Skywriting.  Here's the photo to the right.  --DavidShankBone 19:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: DavidShankBone  welcome to the Falun Gong mess.  Since you are new here you might not be aware of the edit wars that have been going on on all Falun Gong pages.  Believe it or not pictures have been a source of contention.  Falun Gong practiiotners only want pictures like yours that deliever a nice image of the group, they would not allow pictures that reflect the true nature of the Falun Gong.  For example, on Li Hongzhi’s page here his pictures are repeatedly deleted by practitioners, why would they do that?   It is because they do not want the world to know that the FG is a religion, a cult to be exact.  --Yueyuen 22:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: We are waiting for a mediator, hopefully he/she can enlighten us. good luck.  --Yueyuen 23:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request to put up photo 

message: I think this is an excellent idea. Everyone should contribute photographs of Falun Dafa, and the whole world will see their kindness and compassion, and their peaceful Fa-Spreading activities. Let's see more Falun Dafa Photographs! 
Isn't this fair? The article is about Falun Gong after all, shouldn't we have pictures of Falun Gong!?
I WANT FALUN GONG PHOTOS!
:) 
I have some to submit, how do I submit Falun Dafa photographs?
Daniel Price
	Please make sure to Sign your name!!!
This is required in Wikipedia's Markup Guidelines.
:I agree with the pictures.  Since FLG has no membership "list", pictures are the next best thing.  One picture, one name.  This way, the CCP agents will have an easier time collating the names & faces.  You will be saving them a lot of work.  When FLG members are banned from peaceful countries like Iceland, they will have faces to go with the names.  :)-
Cj cawley 01:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Photos posted here should be in consideration for the article. Since that article is locked (and likely to stay that way for a long time to come) the point is moot. --Fire Star 火星 12:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Cj cawley, the purpose of Wikipedia is not a list of all people that should be discriminated against.  Remember the Third Reich made all Jews wear insignia so that they could be recognized.  It was discrimination.  Discrimination of people's religious faith is a violation of Human Rights.  --HResearcher 03:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I plead Godwin's Law. You lose. -- Миборовский 04:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The World Needs Truthfullness, Compassion, and Tolerance 

message: The Falun Gong has accused the Chinese government of persecuting practitioners by lucking them up in psychiatry hospitals.  But many people including psychiatrists in the west have attested that some practitioners were mentally ill.  Dr. Arthur Kleinman and Dr. Sing Lee from Harvard medical school have been long-time researchers on various psychiatric topics in China since 1978.  One of the patients Dr. Lee interviewed in China in 1997 was a Falun Gong practitioner.  Two years into practicing the Falun Gong this 54-year-old housewife found that her body moved in ways that were no longer under her control.  Dr. Lee recounted her case: 
:She thought that these movements “talked” to her, sometimes by writing through her hand, telling her that continuous practice of Falun Gong could transform her into a Buddha. That she was plump and had long earlobes, resembling the popular appearance of a Buddha, convinced her that this possibility was real. In due course, however, she was frightened because the movements began to tell her to die by not eating and by taking an overdose of pills. She believed she was possessed by a shapeless fox spirit a thousand years old that required her body to turn into a real Buddha. She became an insomniac, restless, and distressed. Her distraught family members took her to a psychiatric hospital where she initially resisted treatment because she did not think that she was mentally ill but was only having a paranormal experience… Subsequently, she stayed in the hospital for one month and gradually recovered with antipsychotic drug treatment. She accepted the advice of her doctor that she had a sensitive disposition that was not suited for practicing qigong and stopped the Falun Gong altogether. She knew of many middle-aged people who practiced and derived benefit from Falun Gong for health reasons and loneliness after retirement. But she also heard about some who died by self-induced starvation or suicide as they attempted to ascend to the Falun heaven. 
The above case shows that some practitioners did suffer mental illnesses and the consequences can be deadly.  --Samuel Luo 04:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Andres: There are testimonials on Falun Gong's own websites from actual practitioners in China who proudly talk about going on hunger strikes as a way of protesting their detention.  Further, the Chinese officials have actually worked to keep these people alive by force feeding them.  Just to be clear, are you denying all of this? --Tomananda 19:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Mcconn  I am not the one who wrote this article; I am also not the one who told these stories about some practitioners becoming mentally ill.  This article was written by two professors from Harvard (a 3rd party) and the story was told by a Falun Gong practitioner.   It is not the critics who are claiming that some practitioners are mentally ill, so please don’t mislead people. --Samuel Luo 06:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I see, so introducing this article here is ridiculous because you practitioners don't care about the truth and the mental health of practitioners.  you really hate this kinds of reports, don't you?  Without them you guys can continue to claim the miraculous health benifits of the Falun gong and condemn the Chinese government for trying to cure those mentally ill. --Samuel Luo 16:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falun Gong practitioners with mental illness 

message: Daniel:  You are evading the simple truth:  Li encourages his disciples to let go of their attachments, which includes attachment to their lives, in order to reach consumation.  Your long post about Fasting is a diversion from this reality.   I am copying here a portion of Samuel Luo's writings to put this all in context, so that casual readers of Wikipedia will not be confused by your diversionary tactics:
*Master Li’s teaching of “letting go of life and death” has been carried out by many practitioners in the form of the hunger strike, which has become a powerful tool for the practitioners under custody. Worrying about their deaths, police have had to release them due to their health condition. Because it works, more and more practitioners have gone on hunger strikes after being arrested, but this practice nonetheless weakens the practitioners’ health and can even kill them. As early as January, 2000, the hunger strike tactic took its first life—a 52-year-old female practitioner living in Beijing.8 Unfortunately, at that time the hunger strike was already a common practice and was carried out even in groups. As reported by the Falun Gong itself, 140 practitioners once went on a mass hunger strike while in the Da-Guang detention center.9
*In dealing with these hunger strikes the police have changed their approach—instead of letting them go, they force-feed them. Sadly, because of the resistance from practitioners, methods resembling torture have been used, as described in one practitioner’s account:
:*    In order to verify that practitioners are innocent and ask for justice and freedom from Jiang Zemin's government, we began a fast July 9. On the fifth day of our fast, doctors and armed police came to the detention center to force-feed us. We were shackled, and tied to the "bed of punishment." Our hands and feet were tightly bound. Plastic catheters were inserted through our noses into our stomachs. At this moment I felt there was great pain in my stomach and I thought I was going to die. I struggled hard against the evil; the harder I struggled though, the tighter the shackles became. The pain was unimaginable; I clenched my teeth and endured. I was force fed four meals because I could not move. I was very sad at that time, since I never thought I could be so weak.10
*Although the intention in force-feeding these practitioners was to keep them alive, this method did cause all kinds of injuries and some times even killed the practitioner. In one incident a practitioner was force-fed through the nose on his sixth day of hunger strike. The feeding tube caused severe injuries to his respiratory system, which seriously infected his lungs. He died in the hospital on February 11, 2000.11 However, despite the terrible experiences and deaths caused by hunger strikes, the Falun Gong organization continues to promote them with stories like this:
:*    During the 15 days of detention, I insisted on a hunger strike. After I vomited, they measured my blood pressure and diagnosed that my heart had problems. I was tortured until I was on my last breath. They thought that I would die soon, so they let me go home… After I was released, I went to a practitioner's home and just drank several cups of water. I was fully recovered the next day. From my experience I deeply realized Dafa's supernormal and unimaginable power.12
*This story is different from the others in a few areas: 1) it doesn’t give a name, 2) she doesn’t describe any force-feeding experiences even though she “insisted on a hunger strike” presumably for 15 days, and 3)“the supernormal and unimaginable power of the Dafa” which recovered her body over night is not seen in other practitioners’ testimonials. With these questionable characteristics, one wonders if the story was faked by the Falun Gong organization to encourage practitioners to “let go of the life and death” in the form of hunger strikes. In any case, with these kinds of encouragements, the hunger strike has become the main cause of practitioners’ deaths in police custody, especially in the years 2000 and 2001. With the death rate reaching 977, it’s sad, but not surprising, that there is no voice in the Falun Gong organization questioning the practitioners’ irrational and sometimes deadly tactics of using hunger strikes.
*Li could put a stop to the hunger strikes, thus preventing many deaths, but instead he pushes his followers to take extreme measures, then fails to speak up when they choose to go on self-destructive hunger strikes. To further encourage these extreme tactics, Li proclaims that those practitioners who die in detention centers have “reached consummation.”13 Why is it that a spiritual master, living in the United States, would promote dying in a detention center in China as the fastest way to reach consummation?
*The fact that practitioners have committed suicide in the form of “hunger strikes” shows that the Falun Gong organization has indeed lied about the deaths of at least some of its followers. What Li and the Falun Gong organization do in promoting self-destructive actions to defend the Dafa amounts to sending those practitioners to their death.  Source: 
PS: I didn't bother to copy the links to the footnotes in the above paragraphs.  However, for people who want to verify that practitioners really did make these statements, you can find all the footnote links in a section called "Resisting the Ban"  at:    So Andres, while you may deny that Master Li encourages self-destructive behavior on the part of his disciples (by "self-destructive" I mean in the mundane human sense of keeping your body alive by eating), the evidence points in another direction.  You may point out that some Chinese guards are abusive in how they force-feed practitioners under their care (and I agree that some of them are), but you can't lay the blame for these hunger strikes in the first place on corrupt Chinese guards.  Clearly, the practitioners are dutifully following their Master's directives in order to achieve Falun Gong consumation.  --Tomananda 22:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Li Encourages Practitioners to Go On Hunger Strikes 

message: Tomananda,
I am not trying to use divisionary tactics. 
Yes, Master Li Hongzhi has told practitioners to remove all attachments, even to life and death.
This does not mean committing suicide. 
A true cultivator does not care whether he lives or dies, only human beings get scared when they are about to die. When a being dies in this world, it is only his outermost shell that sloughs off, this human body made of molecules dies, while the particles of his being in the more microcosmic dimensions stay intact, so to a cultivator, or a God who has reached consumation, life or death in the human world is not important, as they understand from the persecpective of the Buddha Fa what happens to their being after they die.
After death, your entire being does not die and cease to exist, only this most surface body and these surface molecules die out. 
As far as I know, Li Hongzhi has never told practitioners to go on a hunger strike, I have not seen his words saying this. 
I do know for sure he has forbidden suicide, so if you are saying Falun Gong practitioners commit suicide by means of hunger strikes, then they are not following Master Li's Teachings. True practitioners would never commit suicide, or do anything to harm themselves. All acts of hunger strikes were to protect Falun Dafa and to resist the persecution.
One more thing,
Chinese policeman were not only cruel in force feeding practitioners, they force fed them feces, urine, and hot chili peppers. How do you explain this? This is not good for Falun Gong practitioners, how can they cover up these evil deeds? This is beyond the limits of forbearance. This shows the true evil nature of the Chinese Communist Party. 
Explain that.
Daniel Price
:Hi Daniel, just want to share with you a few points.  
:1)	Master Li has demanded his followers to let go of all attachments (money, fame, sex, etc) including life and death, do you think Li himself lives up to his own teachings? 
:2)	In Zhuan Falun which was published in 1994, Li did denounced suicide, but he has not spoken out against suicidal tactics used by practitioners in China.  In stead he has made dying in detention centers the fastest way reaching consummation.  Don’t you think that he bares some responsibility for these deaths?  
:3)	You said “a true cultivator does not care whether he lives or dies, only human beings get scared when they are about to die.”  Did you think this way before studying Li’s teachings?  Practitioners think differently from ordinary human beings, in my opinion, because they have been brainwashed. 
:4)	You said “As far as I know, Li Hongzhi has never told practitioners to go on a hunger strike.”  Well, Li has not told them not to go on hunger strike either.  There are numerous stories claiming the divine protection from the Master or his Dafa like the one cited above published on clearwisdom.net the official site of your group.  Yet when practitioners died from this self-destructive action the Falun Gong uses their deaths to condemn the Chinese government.  This looks like an exploitive and deliberate tactics of the Falun Gong.  
:5)	You said “True practitioners would never commit suicide, or do anything to harm themselves. All acts of hunger strikes were to protect Falun Dafa and to resist the persecution.”  Do you see the contradiction in your logic?  
:6)	You said the Chinese policemen feed practitioners on hunger strike with “feces, urine, and hot chili peppers,” do you have any evidence?  Anything solely from the Falun Gong will not convincing us.  
:Just one more question to finish this discussion, Master Li teaches that suffering is good for practitioners because suffering is the fastest way repaying one’s sins.  With this logic it can be said that the Chinese government is doing the practitioners a big favor.  Do you agree?--Samuel Luo 06:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: asdfg12345 what you are really doing is preventing Daniel from exercising his critical thinking. In a cult where  mind-control is used questions and doubts about the group’s teachings and leader(s) are suppressed.  asdfg12345 you can not get out of the Falun Gong trap because you refuse to think.  What you do is your own business but I must demand you not to tell others to stop thinking. --Samuel Luo 17:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Samuel, I see what you are saying and I apologise as it was not meant to come across in that way. The reason I wrote that was because your understanding of Dafa is so far from reality, and with all you guys have done and your attitudes toward this thing, it really seems like there is no way for you to change your thinking at this point. I was advising Daniel Price not to waste his time answering all your things. I also thought it would be best to promote discussion of the article rather than more back-and-forth between you guys and practitioners. I looked at your points and anyone who understands Dafa could respond to them, explain the situation, and correct the understanding presented there. It's a really deviant understanding of Dafa. But no matter what you had written back to you, you would not change. People who truly understand Dafa know it is the Truth and the most righteous thing. I wrote a bunch of stuff addressed to Tomananda above, you should read it. The different understandings present - that of practitioners and that of anti-Falun Gong people - seem truly irreconcilable. So I think there is no use trying to convince each other either way. The best thing is to get on with the content of the article and come up with something. It's also doesn't matter if it drags on forever. All the things that you see as awful parts of Dafa are actually wrong understandings, and maybe they can no longer be corrected through some kind of dialogue. Besides, these things are very solemn; the deaths of practitioners in custody, practitioners negating the persecution, Fa-rectification, Dafa itself, they are so far beyond all that you understand, say, and accuse that it is utterly ridiculous. It's a really big shame. Cj Rawley maybe you have not sincerely read accounts of torture against practitioners in custody. I think you should clear your mind and read them and try to think about what is taking place. Go through this page http://www.faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/. If you have already read and thought about these things then I think it's really awful that you would write something like that. Really a shocking thing, really disgusting. --asdfg12345 The current time in (UTC/GMT) is 12:50 a.m. Thursday , 24 August 2006
I must say, I am totally disgusted today. It's been a while since I've read the talk page and felt this way. You 'critics' are so utterly obsorbed in your mission to show people the "true nature" of Falun Gong that to further your goal you heavily downplay and even make light of some of the worst human rights violations in history and instead try use them to demonize victims. Any rational minded individual with a good understanding of Falun Dafa and the facts of the persecution can see what you're doing. Why can't you? For once I hope you can actually let go of your goal for a second and think about this. I've seen you do this many times, but today I think you've really gone too far. What you are doing is utterly despicable. Mcconn 06:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. This is going way too far, and it has nothing to do with the article. Some critics' utterly dehumanizing, scornful, dismissive and vilifying attitude towards a persecuted group of people is mind-boggling, to say the least. But that's always the case with severe human rights violations. It's a recurring pattern. Crimes against humanity wouldn't take place if there wasn't a significant number of people going into extremes with their enmity. Eventually only history can expose where they stood. What an abysmal tragedy. <sigh> ---Olaf Stephanos 17:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is going tooo far is your FG lies like the organ harvesting allegation, if it wouldn’t for that I would not be here.  Ironically I supported your fG cult before telling friends that this is a Buddhist group suppressed by the repressive CCP.  I still believe some practitioners were tortured in jail given the fact that police brutality is a big problem in China.  But this does not mean anyone should support this cult since it does not care about the life and death of its members.  --Mr.He 22:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I want to second what Mr. He says here.  No one condones the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners in China. However, Falun Gong critics do not believe there is anything close to "genocide" going on in China. The abusive actions of some local Chinese police officers cannot be fairly used as a blanket justification for the destruction of the CCP or the central goverment in Beijing.  My understanding is that Beijing officials have publicly condemned corruption at the local and provicial levels.  The story about organ harvesting appears to have been fabricated for the purpose of embarrasing the Chinese government. As I have said repeatedly, the Falun Gong has a big credibility problem.  As long as Falun Gong editors work to conceal their own Master's teachings, how can we believe all the outrageous claims about "genocide" and "crimes against humanity"?  The problem with losing one's credibility is that once you've lost it, it's difficult to get it back. --Tomananda 23:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Falun Dafa Hao (good)''' 

message: Daniel: the reprehensible actions of corrupt Chinese prison guards do not equate to the "true evil nature of the Chinese Communist Party" anymore than the reprehensible actions of some Catholic pedophiliac priests prove that the Pope in Rome is evil.  In both cases, these moral conclusions are gross generalizations which do not follow logically. In light of these examples, we might want to work to reform how China manages it's prison systems and how the Vatican manages charges of child abuse among the clergy.  But in neither of these cases is it reasonable to conclude that the Beijing government should be eliminated, which is Li Hongzhi's stated goal, or that the Vatican should be destroyed.
The fact that you titled your post "Falun Dafa Hao (good)" speaks volumes to me.  Falun Dafa does not deserve the title "good" merely because some of it's believers are abused in China.  In order to earn the title of "good" practitioners need to demonstrate their own "goodness" in how they treat others. 
There are numerous ways in which Falun Gong practitioners fail to live up to the stated principles of "truthfullness, compassion and forebearance" and arguments based on the alleged victimization of practitioners in China do not absolve practitioners from accountability for their own actions.  Here are just a few examples, all of which have been mentioned in these discussion pages:
*failure to truthfully report Li's teachings "at the higher levels"
*failure to disclose that Li assumes the status of a god or "main Buddha" and is viewed as such by virtually all practitioners.
*failure to clearly state in this Wikipedia article that salvation for Falun Gong practitioners is contingent on "standing up for the Dafa" which for Li means doing everything possible to destroy the Chinese Commuist Party short of overt violence.
*failure to treat critics of Falun Gong with respect, compassion and forebearance. 
*failure to respect the civil rights of Falun Gong critics, especially the right to free speech. Case  in point: the outrageous behavior of that Falun Gong lawyer in Madrid who threatened jail time for the organizers and presenters at the 2005 ICSA conference if they said anything critical of the Falun Gong.
*failure to acknowledge that some Falun Gong practitioners have jeopardised their health because of Li's teachings on sickness karma.
*failure to acknowledge that Li's teachings on homosexuals and mixed race people can be considered contradictory to universal standards of civil rights.
*failure to respect the life and death of Dr. Lili Feng by reporting her death on Falun Gong websites, thereby reinforcing the idea that practitioners are treated as disposable commodities by Li Hongzhi.
*failure on Li's part to come forward and accept accountability for his teachings rather than living in seclusion, therby avoiding the scrutiny of our complacent media.
As long as the Falun Gong continues to conceal from the general public it's paramount objective--the destruction of the Chinese Communist party--and it's belief in Li Hongzhi as a god or main Buddha who alone offers salvation for mankind at this time, I will feel justified in distrusting everything you say.  The big lie continues.  --Tomananda 18:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Andres: Rather than responding to these legitimate concerns, you threaten me with some kind of mediator-initiated sanction?  In the face of specific intellectual challenges to your positions, can't you do something better than threatening me?  You are showing your true colors. I have nothing to fear from a mediatator, in fact I have been the strongest advocate for mediation all along. I welcome mediation, or arbitration...anything that will lead to an honest reporting of Falun Gong's teachings and practices to the general public.   --Tomananda 01:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Andres, I don't expect you to agree with my points, but only respond to them.  Falun Gong practitioners are liers because Li tells them to lie...or rather, not to speak about the teachings "at the higher levels" when talking to ordinary people.  I don't blame you guys for this deceipt, but I do blame Master Li for manipulating you and destroying your ability to think clearly. Please see my post below to Daniel, and what I have to say about obfuscation...which in this case is a fancy word for apologetics.  Keep in mind that I see you and the other practioners as victims of Master Li, who uses you to work towards the destruction of the CCP.  The failure to honestly admit that the destruction of the CCP is the principle goal of the Falun Gong is part of the big lie.  Just look at the post below: in one sentence a practitioner claims "the Falun Gong has no objective to destroy the Chinese Communist Party" and then later on the same practioner acknowledges that Falun Gong practitioners are busy "spreading the Nine Commentaries."   Give me a break!  What does it take for practitioners to speak honestly about what they are doing (working towards the destruction of the CCP as Master Li requires) and why they are doing it (in order to reach consumation in this period of Fa-rectification, as Master Li teaches.)  The big lie continues, but it is getting more and more tiresome for me to call you guys on these lies.  It's not me who doesn't listen, it's you...and it is understandable why.  According to Master Li, your very salvation is at stake.  --Tomananda 20:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Falun Dafa is Dishonest 

message: Heavy pro-FLG bias. -- Миборовский 21:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you saying that here? If it is too one-sided, improve it by trying to balance it out more. John Smith's 21:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am bringing it to the attention of the expert editors here on this page. Please refrain from wikistalking. -- Миборовский 22:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The problem is not what's used in this article, it's what's NOT used in this article. Which is, sources from the other side. -- Миборовский 12:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Falun Gong and Live Organ Harvesting]] 

message: 1. Falun Gong has no power structure. All practitioners are simply students. There is only one teacher, Master Li Hongzhi. 
2. I practice Falun Gong, no one tells me what to do. I can do whatever I want. I don't have to "clarify the truth," I only do this because I hate to see practitioners abused and tortured in China.
3. Master Li Hongzhi lives by his own teachings. He only talks about what he can do, and he doesn't talk about what he can't do.
4. Many people claim to have special missions in their lives. Maybe a musician says his mission in life is to spread beautiful music. A priest's mission in life is to promote his own religion, so what is wrong with being self-appointed and claiming a special mission in life? If Li Hongzhi founded Falun Gong, who else could have been appointed as leader? It is after all his practice.
5. Li Hongzhi is far from domineering, he is a believer in non-violence, compassion, and cherishment of life. He is perhaps charismatic, and in my experiences he is definitely determined. What is wrong with that?
6. Li Hongzhi accepts no gifts, and he does not seek veneration from his students. He doesn't even let his students pay for their own meals when they dine together.
7. Falun Gong practitioners do not recruit, people come to learn the gong on their own. Also, Falun Gong does not collect any money, and there is never any fund-raising.
Falun Gong is not a cult by any of those definitions of a cult.
Maybe by some definitions and some people's perceptions Falun Gong is a cult, but these are simply word games, and they avoid the key issue, is Falun Gong good? 
Imagine this:
If a cult was good and it helped people, what is wrong with that? 
There are and have been for many years good and orthodox religions, however there definitely have existed evil and unorthodox religions. So maybe there are good cults, and there are bad cults. 
Even if Falun Gong were a cult (which is just simply a word for describing a group of people with simialar beliefs), what is wrong with that? As long as it helps people, what is wrong with Falun Gong? It has certainly helped and changed me. Millions of people have regained there health and improved moral standards. You can read all of these stories for yourself, these are available for free download. We are not hiding anything.
www.clearwisdom.net
What is wrong with this? This in no way characterizes an evil cult.
What is wrong with cultivating Truthfullness, Compassion, and Tolerance? 
Master Li Hongzhi has explained:
"Zhen, Shan, Ren is the Fa! And it is the manifestation of the Great Fa of the cosmos at different levels. It is absolutely not some human theory or guiding principle for ordinary human living, as human beings take it to be." ("Beyond the Limits of Forbearance")
Who keeps claiming that Falun Gong is deceptive? What are we hiding? How are we concealing our "core teachings"?
They are availble for free download.
www.falundafa.org
Perhaps some Falun Gong practitioners simply don't like talking about their own beliefs with other people, this is just a personal choice. Have you ever considered this? Maybe they just don't want to talk about these things, or maybe they just don't want to talk to you. 
We don't ever question you about your deepest core beliefs and feelings. Why bother us?
Read the books people!
www.falundafa.org
danielprice 8/31/06 1:30 PM
If you guys are not hiding the core teachings then why fight so hard to prevent these teachings being reported on wikipedia?  It is because you guys are lying to the public on wikipedia that we must expose your real beliefs here. --Mr.He 19:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  By Those Definitions, Falun Gong is Not a Cult 

message: For a wide range of westerners and devout Falun Gong practitioners (see? there's no grey area. Try finding a "religion" where everyone's absolutely devout to its teachings that's not apparently a cult) to come and mediate on the topic of Falun Gong is really just an excuse to present an even more western perspective. It's like asking some Catholic cardinals to "mediate" over the issue of cloning. I wish you great luck, and may the Dharma wheel spin this article in the right direction.
My continued cultivation with the Dafa also gives me a feeling, and a hard one to explain at that, that the article after mediation will be all the more digusting to read than communist propaganda. Master Li teaches us how to bullshit in the proper manner. The majority of you "mediators" should seriously study his teachings more. Then you will be able to brainwash the entire western world more effectively! 
Don't even try to convince me I'm wrong. I'm wiser than all of you. I can't explain why because frankly I have engrained philosophies too difficult for you to comprehend. Once you learn the true Fa, get back to me and I'll make it clear to you then.
Colipon+(T) 02:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just an opinion on  mediation, nothing more 

message: In reply to the previous posting, you are wrong.  The ex-wife bought about a gross (150 copies) of the FLG book for $10 each.  She then gave them all out.  I have no idea how many times she did that.  Transferring a cost directly to someone is same as them giving you money directly.  It didn't cost $10 to make the book.
She has repeatedly sent money back to China.  By now, she must be well over the $100,000 dollar mark.  The kid still has no college fund here that I am aware of.
Like you, I do believe in karma.  On 9/11, I sent the ex down to the Trade Center to help out(she is a nurse).  I had to beg her to do it.  Basically, I dropped $100 and filled up her sack with supplies.  Then the excuses started: "How am I going to get down there?" My response: "Ask any cop."  She took a "friend" to pass out FLG material at the grave site.  How dare they desecrate the gravesite?
70 people from my neighborhood died that day.  The ex now bears the same 9/11 marks as many others.  When her time comes, it will more than likely be slow and painful.  
A fitting end.
Cj cawley 10:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FLG funding 

message: See here. Best Regards, --HappyInGeneral (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would encourage everybody to participate and point out how partisan and inappropriate this requested topic ban is. Simonm223 (talk) 18:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: For anyone familiar with the behaviour of Asdfg12345 and HappyInGeneral, this request is outrageous. These two editors have POV pushing the heck out of FG articles for months, and now they are getting reverted they have the nerves of trying to topic ban one of the editors that is reverting their POV pushing? This pushes the limits way farther that I can stand. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

text: *This has been attempted for months years and it has been of absolutely no usefulness since Asdfg12345 and you are clearly trying very hard not to hear. (By the way, the accurate descriptions of the disruptive behaviour of an user does not constitute a personal attack, so references to WP:NPA are not having the effect that you think that they are having). --Enric Naval (talk) 22:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

text: The edits were discussed, for months you don't own the falun gong articles and other editors do not need to run every decision past the office of . Simonm223 (talk) 02:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I very much doubt that the edits where discussed but more importantly what I would like to point out to you that by doing blind reverts you are in practice blocking people you don't like to make edits and that is the actual practice of owning the article. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 12:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

text: A seemingly civil facade does not hide the end goal of single-purpose accounts. Any rational user can read through these discussions, look through user contributions, and see for themselves. I am not engaging in strawmen discussions and wasting my time to wait for my logical argumentation to be shoddily brushed away by users who simply do not want to agree, and who are forbidden to agree because of their belief system. Colipon+(Talk) 03:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do, I could use the support. Simonm223 (talk) 04:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting topic ban against Simon