Talk:List of Unitarians, Universalists, and Unitarian Universalists

message: Can I add myself? :) Voyager640 08:46, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, if you're notable. Nick Graves 03:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The amount of cool people on this list is staggering. So not just notable, but cool as well.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.190.253.145 (talk) 01:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Self-additions

message: Since most of these people are from before Unitarianism and Universalism merged in the US, there probably ought to be three lists:
#Unitarians - American pre-1961 and international
#Universalists - American pre-1961
#Unitarian Universalists - American post-1961
--Palnatoke 19:04, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've taken the initiative to separate the U's and U's from the UU's, beginning with the Adams' and a few others (four of whom I added to the list completely).  I do not have the time nor resources at the moment to sort everybody, but it is my opinion that it'd be best to start sorting properly as soon as possible, so new edits can be placed into the appropriate subcategories.  --Jxn 05:39, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also asked for assistance in the sorting on UUWiki. --Palnatoke 09:54, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I've done some of the sorting by checking Wikipedia articles. The ones left unsorted are mostly Americans pre-1961 whose Wikipedia articles fail searches for "Unitarian" or "Universalist". Many of the names that are left (Anthony, Bell, Longfellow to hame a few) are Unitarian, I think, but I won't sort them unless I find a source. Sorry for so many small edits. Edwinstearns 18:59, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal for three lists

message: Wow.  This one really ought to be taken off this list.  I think this again is just showing the tendancy that I've seen on many other religion/mysticism pages to make Christian mystics out as being somehow seperate from Christianity, as if they had caught a glimpse through the darkness of Christianity into the light of a more modern and quasi-Eastern beliefs. Corbmobile 01:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Julian of Norwich

message: This list is for "notable" Unitarians and Universalists, not just anyone who happens to belong to a UU church (which would be a fairly large list).  It is a similar criterion as the one for Wikipedia articles and everyone on this list should probably have a Wikipedia article also.  So here's an opportunity for people who like to research and write articles.  With this in mind, does anyone know who Robert Dillman and Angela Moffett are? Shoaler 10:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If a person is sufficiently notable to have an entry in Wikipedia, they are notable enough for this list. –Shoaler (talk) 14:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

text: There are several people on the list who are notable in UU circles but do not have articles written about them yet.  I would check the UUA website and see what it says. But yes, if they're not notable, we should take them out. –Shoaler (talk) 10:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No, they should stay (or go) based on whether they're notable or not, rather than whether or not an article exists. If they're non-notable, feel free to remove them. But if they're notable, they should stay even if there's no article written just yet. One of the biggest advantages of list articles over categories is that you can include entries for which there is no individual article. --Craig Stuntz 13:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I managed to clean up all the "red" enteries without deleting anyone.  Most were a matter of changing the link to the proper Wikipedia article.  For several others I added a link to an external  page.  The few remaining "red" names are at least sufficiently notable to be listed here: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_unitarian.html --Mikebrand 04:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It took just another 30 minutes to added an external reference to everyone who doesn't have a Wikipedia article.  Now all the notables have either internal or external references.  If time permits I hope to use those external references as sources for Wikipedia articles --Mikebrand 13:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability 

message: After reading some of Leo Tolstoy's religious texts (just a few, not all) and autobiographical works, I am tempted to add him to the list.  While defining himself as a Christian, in his later life he adhered to the belief that
:...a Christian should look inside his or her own heart to find inner happiness rather than looking outward toward the Church or state... 
However, I am an expert in neither Tolstoy nor the philosophies of UU, so I am requesting the assistance of someone more knowledgable than myself.  I hope I am not embarrassingly off-the-mark here.  :)  --buck 22:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leo Tolstoy? 

message: I disputed this because I think it's vague and hard to tell.  There are three different possible groups and I think members were taken from all of these.  Such as John Adams, was a Unitarian but this list said Unitarian Universalists... so, it's too convoluted. gren グレン ? 09:42, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are five groups if you include (small-u) unitarians and universalists.  Or 120 if you consider that any of these people may be in more than one group.  Assertaining a person's belief from 200 years ago is not an exact science but I think this list does the best job possible.  We could rename the article "List of Unitarians and Universalists" which would probably be more (but not completely) accurate.  I think some of the entries are may not be perfect either, but hanging a  tag on the whole article I think is a bit of an overkill. Shoaler 11:56, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Rather than dispute the whole article, why not just use  on the names you believe to be questionable?--Craig Stuntz 13:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to rename the article "List of Unitarians and Universalists" and then remove the  tag, allowing the use of .  If you have any objections, please post them.  Thanks. –Shoaler (talk) 19:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Even in the US there are congregations which are strictly Unitarian or Universalist (though with only a few exceptions, are all part of the Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA) - It would be helpful if someone could cite an example in the US.  There are certainly congregations that haven't changed their names to include both u's, and individuals who would still classify themselves this way, but I haven't run across whole congregations that either embrace hell or the trinity. This also would argue against changing the name of the article.  --NealMcB 21:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two factors which muddy the waters on this issue.  While there are some UU churches in the US which have not (yet?) changed their name to include the other "U", there are some which see themselves as strictly Unitarian or Universalist without espousing either hell or the trinity.  It's more a matter of tradition than specific theology.  There are churches which have been Unitarian for 150 years and are not about to add Universalist to their name.  Do they believe in hell?  Probably not.  And there are other churches which are Universalist and not UU.  Why?  Either because they have always been Universalist or because they believe that "Universalist" churches are more traditional.  And that's just in the US.  In Britain, for example, a Unitarian church is a member of the General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches.  There are very few if any Universalist churches in Britain. But I doubt if many of the Unitarians there believe in hell. –Shoaler (talk) 14:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: This is to explain why I'll be deleting from the list of famous Unitarians this entry for U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall:
  John Marshall (1755–1835) (Chief Justice)
Simply put, Chief Justice John Marshall was not a Unitarian.  He was an Episcopalian, who figured prominently in the history of St. Paul's Episcopal Cathedral in Richmond Virginia.  
See, e.g., http://www.stpauls-episcopal.org/Church_History.asp 
The fact that Chief Justice John Marshall was an eighteenth-century Virginian should itself make one suspicious of any assertions that he was a Unitarian - - for Unitarianism's roots were in New England, not the South.  Thomas Jefferson was an eighteenth-century Virginian too, of course, but we know from his relationship with the Rev. Dr. Joseph Priestley, and from his correspondence with John Adams, that he was a Unitarian in sympathy and theology, if not by membership in a Unitarian congregation (which was not much of an option at Monticello).  I'm afraid we have no similar basis for tagging Chief Justice John Marshall as a Unitarian.  And his leadership in the Espiscopalian Church, provides a compelling reason for removing him from Wikipedia's list of famous Unitarians and Universalists.  
I would, however, like to offer a possible explanation for why the Chief Justice has been misidentified as a famous Unitarian.  I suspectt it comes of the fact that another John Marshall was a prominent British Unitarian -- John Marshall the British industrialist and linen draper from Leeds who lived from 1765 to 1845.  
See:  http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TEXmarshall.htm
I would guess that that John Marshall, the industrialist, earned an entry for his name in lists of prominent Unitarians.  Americans then confused him with John Marshall they knew best - - the U.S. Chief Justice.  
The misidentification may have been popularized by an ardent Unitarian stamp collector who assembled pages of Unitarians on postage stamps - - prominently featuring a stamp honoring John Marshall, the U.S. Chief Justice.  I saw such a collection, framed, on the wall of the Unirtarian Universalist Association's Boston headquarters when I visited in early 2007, and I have seen it reproduced in Sunday school curricula that I use as a religious-education instructor at the First Unitarian Universalist Church of San Diego. 
The mistake was an easy one to make, but it really needs correction.  
Eric Alan Isaacson 03:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chief Justice John Marshall, a Unitarian ? ? ?  No, not  <i>that</i> John Marshall 

message: Separating Unitarians and Universalists may be easier said than done.  Consider the Rev. Adin Ballou, who was first a Universalist minister, and then a Unitarian minister.  His move from one denomination to the other was motivated, if I recall, by the fact that he objected to the "ultra-Universalism" of the Rev. Hoseah Ballou that had swept the Universalist denomination, and which rejected the idea of hell altogether.  Believing that sinners should be punished in at least a temporary hell, Adin Ballou opted for a Unitarian affiliation because it was less radical than Hoseah Ballou's "ultra-Universalism."  The Unitarian affiliation left left him room to argue that Universal salvation would come only after people had been soundly punished for their evil deeds.  
Perhaps Adin Ballou's case argues for drawing a hard distinction between Unitarians and Universalists - - at least in the context of the eighteenth-century Restorationist Controversy.  Yet the boundaries are anything but hard and fast.  And terminology can become very confusing because "Unitarian" and "Universalist" can refer to theological doctrine, or to denominational affiliation, or to both.  
And today many who are fervently "Unitarian Universalist" in their denominational affiliation are neither Unitarian in their theology, nor Universalist in the original sense of believing in a Universal resurrection and Universal salvation.  Many members of the Unitarian Universalist Church of San Diego, for example, accept Buddhist teachings - - which are neither Unitarian nor Universalist as those terms were used in eighteenth- or nineteenth-century Christian theology.  But difficulties of terminology go back some time.  
When the Rev. Dr. Joseph Priestley fled England to escape religious and political persecution, he was welcomed to preach in 1796 from the pulpit of the Rev. Elhanan Winchester, the leading Universalist minister.   Thomas Brown, in his 1826 A History of the Origin and Progress of the Doctrine of Universal Salvation lauds Priestley and Winchester for placing religious fellowship above theological doctrine.  For the two entertained radically different Christologies, yet could fellowship one another and share a pulpit.  Brown tells us that Rev. Winchester was a "Trinitarian Universalist," while "Dr. Priestley was a Unitarian Universalist."  See Thomas Brown, A History of the Origin and Progress of the Doctrine of Universal Salvation 325 n. (Thomas Brown 1826).  
Ah, but we're told that there was no such thing as "a Unitarian Universalist" before 1961, when the Unitarian and Universalist denominations merged.  Yet Priestley surely was both a Unitarian by denominational affiliation, and a Universalist, in his theology.  And Winchester who was both a Universalist in his denominational affiliation, though anything but a Unitarian in his theology.  
Then there's Benjamin Rush, whom Unitarian Universalists today claim because he accepted Winchester's Universalist theology, and even penned the resolutions of the General Convention of Universalists that met at Philadelphia in 1790.  Yet Rush, if I'm not mistaken, had his children baptized as Presbyterians.  
And there's Susan B. Anthony, who I am told, called herself sometimes a Quaker, and sometimes a Unitarian - - perceiving no conflict between the two.  
Does Rush's Presbyterianism exclude him from the history of Universalism?  I think not.  His place in American Universalist history is an important one.  Does Anthony's Quakerism exclude her from Unitarian history?  Again I think not.  No more than the Buddhist sentiments of many modern Unitarian Universalists would.  
We'd best recognize that the task of identifying Unitarians and Universalists is neccessarily a messy one.  And that may not be a bad thing.  
Eric Alan Isaacson 04:49, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the UUA itself merged in recognition of longstanding similarities between the two and attempts to be inclusive, rather than exclusive, it seems to me one list including both is most appropriate here. Moreover, the distinctions between individual fellowships within either entity in different parts of the country and world are FAR greater than the distinctions between the two of them, and not limited to merely two items of theology. Let's not split hairs where the national organizations try not to do so. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 03:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More thoughts on attempts to "separate" Unitarians from Universalists 

message: A copy of a response that I posted on a Bagdadjenny's talk page:
Hi Jenny. Thank you for adding a reference to the Hruska entry at the list of U/U/UUs. I don't believe it is a reliable enough source, however. The adherents.com source references another source (politicalgraveyard.com), which has this disclaimer: "Information on this page — and on all other pages of this site — is believed to be accurate, but is not guaranteed. Users are advised to check with other sources before relying on any information here." It is also a self-published website with no editorial oversight structure. It is unreliable by Wikipedia standards.
Your friend's characterization of Hruska as a Unitarian is also not reliable by WP standards, unless s/he has had it published in a reliable source. I'm not sure about whether the file at Harvard Divinity School would qualify. Does it explicitly identify Hruska as a Unitarian? Has such identification been published, or does it remain unpublished?
I'm not disputing that Hruska is a Unitarian. It just remains to point to a reliable published source that confirms it. Nick Graves (talk) 01:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Roman Hruska

message: Someone should add  Edward Everett Hale to this list - he is important in Unitarian History, and U.S. 19th century history generally.  He also wrote the first story about an artificial satellite - "The Brick Moon". 212.242.235.174 (talk) 22:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edward Everett Hale - author of "The Man Without a Country" 

message: An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: Unitarianism is a Christian belief that there is no Holy Trinity, just one whole god. Universalism is a Christian belief that everyone eventually goes to Heaven. Unitarian Universalism isn't even a Christian denomination, it's a separate religion. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:52, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And so? What are you proposing? - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There is already List of Christian Universalists that lists historic and present day Christian Universalists. That would leave only two lists to be made. But I think it would not be an easy job to do, that is if we are to do it. And I think it may not be the best use of our time. --Devin Murphy (talk) 00:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: One of the names on the list is identified as: "Charles William Eliot (1834–1926) – landscape architect"
The Eliot with those dates was the President of Harvard. His son Charles (1859-1897) was the landscape architect. I suspect that the elder Eliot is the one who belongs in this article, but I'm no expert on these guys, so that's why I'm posting this in Talk rather than just editing the article to change "landscape architect" to "President of Harvard." Perhaps a more knowledgeable person would like to do that.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.179.165 (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charles William Eliot 

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