Talk:Sokollu Mehmed Pasha

message: We can put here various arguments, sources, books and myths. BUT. Was his brother a man who led renewing of Serbian orthodox patriarchat? Yes! Was he the first Patriarch of renewed Serbian orthodox patriarchat? Yes. So please, once for ever, stop those nonsenses. The rest can celebrate those great and famous Serbs coz they do not have such brilliant men in their past, but this should be stopped. No need to mention "myth" and "legend" that he was maybe coming from some Bosniak noble bla bla... Nor to write that his name is in Bosnian (few years ago invented language) or Croatian (when he has nothing with Croats). He was Serb and his name is in Serbian. Dot!109.121.42.43 (talk) 08:16, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's right, he was Serbian. You see, some people really confuse "Serb-Serbian" with "Bosniak-Bosnian". A Serb = Serbian, while Bosniak =/= Bosnian. A Bosniak is an "ethnic Bosnian", while a Serb, or a Croat also can be Bosnian if they're the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That's why the Sokollu family was NOT Muslim Bosniak. I think none of the original members of this family were born as Muslims, they were all born as Serbian-Orthodox (Christian Orthodox church). They converted to Islam later on, because they were in fact Bosnian Serbs. Moreover, Sokollu comes from Sokolović, which is largely a Serbian surname. Too much evidence. His NATIONALITY could be Bosnian, but he was ETHNICALLY Serbian. Yatzhek (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  He was Serb. Enough is enough 

message: i moved this to the bottom because i have learned the importance of always putting posts in chronological order. What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 02:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: i noticed this has been reduced to  a single sentence!  perhaps an overcompensation, but i do appreciate the breaking-up of his life into various issues of historical import.  i think the article is much, much better now!  congrats to whoever did that.  any further ideas as to how this article could approach featured status (i think it is an important enough one to both western and eastern history for that to be likely)? What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 20:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  so the paragraph i quoted above has now been restored, and, defying all expectation, the writing in it has actually become worse.  the last years is about right now, and need not have a glowing obituary at the end of it.  i feel qualified to remove most of this paragraph, since i have kept an eye on it for so long now.  please, don't be be bold and restore it, whoever you are. What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 14:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  the grand vizier section 

message: He was born a Serb, however through forceful conversion into Islam, he became what one may today call a Bosniak. He is in the line of the first progenitors of the Bosniak ethnos.
In other words; Sokollu Mehmed Pasha was a Serb by ethnicity, however a founding father of what the Bosniak ethnos is going to mean one day.
Bosniaks ethnogenesis starts with the influence of Islam on the Christian Slavic population of Bosnia (Serbs and in the northwest the Croats), meaning that only Muslims may be called Bosniaks. Catholic or Orthodox Bosniaks traditionally do not exist (as it is the case with the Serbs and Croats, which denominate by their Slavic lineage to their respectible Slavic tribes, Croats and Serbs namely, and not by religion). Only in the year 1973 were the 'Muslims', today Bosniaks, recognised as a specific ethnos, and not Serbs of Muslim denomination.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.117.39.170 (talk) 12:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The inhabitants of medieval Bosnia called themselves Bosnjani (meaning Bosnians) and this name was transformed into Bosnjaci (Bosniaks) with the ottoman rule. There is no evidence that medieval Bosnians in any way considered themselves Serb or Croat (British historian Noel Malcolm has covered this extensively). Hence, during the Ottoman rule Bosniaks came in three religions (Muslim, Orthodox and Catholic). US historians Robert Donia and John Fine write: A Bosnian's identity as a Bosnian - even if it originally referred to his geographical homeland or state membership - has roots going back many centuries, whereas the classification of any Christian Bosnian as a Serb or a Croat goes back barely a century. Thus, the recent self-identification of Catholic and Orthodox Bosnians/Bosniaks as Croats and Serbs is the result of 19th century nationalism in neighboring Croatia and Serbia. In Serb-dominated Yugoslavia the Bosniak identity was suppressed for obvious political reasons.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.230.54.125 (talk) 20:15, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sokollu Mehmed Pasha born a Serb, became a Bosniak 

message: Currently it is as if he was an adherent of the Eastern Orthodox religion, while in fact he was (probably) born into Eastern Orthodox parents.
Before reaching adulthood he was taken to Istanbul and raised as an Ottoman and a Muslim and he remained so for the rest of his life.
He was famous because he was an Ottoman Muslim Grand Vizier, not because he was born in a certain part of the world to parents of a specific religion which had nothing to do with the rest of his life. The intro of the article represents exactly the opposite of what I wrote.
In fact I'm certain that there is almost nothing known about his personal life before him becoming a high ranking Ottoman. I believe everything concerning his origins is an unnecessary nationalist approach. (See discussions above)
I'm changing the infobox.  
DragonTiger23 (talk) 12:13, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion of Sokollu Mehmed 

message: The link to an existing Wikipedia article Serbian Cyrillic in which the name is written in the article is constantly being changed to just Cyrillic even though the last letter used for his name -- ћ -- exists ONLY in the Serbian Cyrillic (and that is why it is used in the spelling).
Moreover, the religion of his ancestors is being changed from Serbian Orthodoxy to Eastern Orthodoxy. The only Orthodoxy that ever existed in Bosnia is Serbian Orthodoxy, not some blanket Eastern Orthodoxy that exists from Japan through China and all of Asia and Europe to Vancouver and San Francisco.
The article should have these two issues fixed and then be locked to prevent vandalism.  QueerStudiesRS (talk) 08:53, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I do support emphasizing the Serbian variant of the Cyrillic script. But there was no well-structured or defined religious landscape in 16th century Bosnia, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Bogomil. What prevailed was a form of folk Christianity pervaded by mysticism, and with little or no actual allegiance to any patriarchates based in Serbia or, in the case of Catholics, to archbishops based in Croatia or Dalmatia. Such firm bonds were only formed later, late 18th century and forwards, in parallel with the formation of Serb and Croat ethnic identities among Bosnia's catholic and orthodox communities. Your sense of approaching editing on Wikipedia testifies of an anachronistic POV nationalist agenda much unacceptable. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 01:24, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

text: Because of issues with historical anachronism, we do not refer to this individual as either "Bosniak" or "Serb". The most accurate approximation we can make is "Bosnian". So, no Bosniak or Serb categories. And that goes for the both of you. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 22:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page is being vandalised 

message: User:Sabahudin continues to vandalise this page whit his serbophobic and nationalistic edits. Please stop him.Serb1914 (talk) 00:04, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Because of issues with historical anachronism, we do not refer to this individual as either "Bosniak" or "Serb". The most accurate approximation we can make is "Bosnian". So, no Bosniak or Serb categories. And that goes for the both of you. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 22:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  stop sabahudin

message: These three authors were used just to prove that Sokollu was an ethnic Serb. Their books are marginal to the life and rule of the Sokollu and we have seven other sources proving the same already. Instead, I've added Tezcan, Imber, Crowly to the Sources section - the authors who were writing about the Ottoman Empire in a more wide and particular range.--109.92.171.133 (talk) 20:09, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banac, Judah, Tanner 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:21, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: This article is so nationalistic it's pathetic. His name should be written in Bosnian as he was from Bosnia.
Why is this talk page full of people fighting about his ethnicity? Who really cares, focus on his life and what he did. Do not write Serb everywhere because that seems largely irrelevant to who this person was (an Ottoman statesman). For a modern analogy, would you write Boris Johnson is a turk because he is of Turkish ethnicity? His Wikipedia page barely mentions it. Xzpx (talk) 16:28, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please leave the native spelling of this person's name 

message: Is there a reference of Sokolovići village near present town Rudo as Mehmed-pasa's birthplace? Absolutely not a logical location of birthplace for several reasons and I think the confusion has been copied from one wiki language to another:
1. There is a village of the same name in today's municipality Sokolac (after which the town and municipality were probably named, due to the birth of Mehmed-pasha and whole family of Turkish statesmen) through which was the caravan road from Sarajevo to Istanbul. That road led trough Sokolovići village to Visegrad and ferrie over the river Drina where he made a famous bridge after he become Grand Vizier. The village Sokolovići near Rudo is next to river Lim.
2. Sokolovići village (today's municipality of Sokolac) is not far from caravan crossroads that led to town Žepa, where Mehmed-pasa also made another bridge on a small river Žepa.
3. It is stated that his relative Lala Mustafa-pasa, also the Grand Vizier, was born in Glasinac village (today's Sokolac municipality).
5. Around Sokolovic village (municipality of Sokolac) where multiple sagnificant buildings and legacies of Mehmed-pasa (listed on this page):
- The bridge on Žepa
- Višegrad bridge
- A Road of four paces and a castle between Višegrad and Sarajevo, on Glasinac (municipality Sokolac). Of the castle, only a drinking-fountain remains, which is known as the Mehmed Sokolović's han.
6. Sokolovići village near Rudo, which is listed as the place of birth, is on the river Lim and has no close buildings or Mehmed-pasa's legacies. The caravan road from Sarajevo to Istanbul did not pass close or at least not that close as in the case of Sokolovići village from Sokolac municipality.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.93.223.49 (talk) 21:41, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect birthplace? 

message: Its best to present both views about his ethnicity, not just one. Have respect to everyone's opinions. Thats what i wrote now. Keep it like this. Mrjazz123 (talk) 23:06, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity 

message: Since there are different opinions among historians about Mehmed-paša Sokolović's origin, I think both views should be presented, not just one. For example, in the article about Rustem Pasha Opuković, all three theories about his origin are presented, since only one cannot be taken. Here is an example of how i think the text about his ethnicity should be: "There is great dispute among historians about his origins. According to some historians, he was of Bosniak origin, while others claim that he was of Serbian origin". Sources will be listed. We need to reach a consensus regarding this issue. WP:RFC  WP:CONACHIEVE
Mrjazz123 (talk) 13:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus