Talk:Cobra maneuver

message: Is there a reason why the French and American aircraft in the list have "citation needed" next to them and the Soviet aircraft do not?  A pesky Russian editor attempting to be comical, perhaps? Mojodaddy (talk) 15:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but MiGs and Su s do have thrust vectoring etc. 2607:FEA8:1F1B:3D60:28E8:3E28:4E7B:A875 (talk) 22:08, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations Needed

message: No actual tactical importance?
Well, I'm only a flight sim affictionado, so I know nothing about nothing, I'm sure, but performing a hook correctly seems, at least in flight-sim land - to succeed in putting your nose on the target, after which you can shoot at him. 
I'm obviously not an expert, but I do believe that shooting and hitting had some trifeling tactical significance. :-) Kim Bruning 21:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why did you change "horizontal plane" to "plane of an opponent"? It's much easier to understand to talk about horizontal and vertical plane imho, especially to a reader not familiar with the subject. Also it would be nice to elaborate on what makes the hook more useful. - Dammit 17:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Because horizontal and vertical is basically silly. If an enemy is in the plane 45 degrees to your aircraft, you roll to align your aircraft, and then pull the same maneuver. If it's at 32 degrees, or 15, same story. If the plane you're turning on just happens to coincide exactly with the vertical plane, congratulations, you've just performed a cobra maneuver that's actually effective in combat. <innocent look> Though granted, that would ony be by happenstance. Kim Bruning 12:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah ok, got it.. I was thinking it was meant more along the lines of retaining speed, but what you said makes sense too. - Dammit 13:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid I don't quite comprehend what it is you're trying to illustrate. Couldyou differentiate between "plane" as it is in geometry and "plane" as a reference to another aircraft? Thanks. -- Oceanhahn 02:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Geometric planes. --Henrickson 09:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, that was the Cobra. Jigen III 10:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No, that was not a Cobra. A Cobra involves a significant enough amount of change in angle of attack to maintain nearly level flight. Turning your nose upwards in an aircraft like the F-14 as dramatically as an Su-27 does either causes the aircraft to go into a stupor or to gain elevation. The whole point of a Cobra is that you change your angle of attack so quickly and dramatically that your control surfaces do not manipulate the facing of your aircraft and instead turn the entire airframe into a giant wind-brake, slowing you in the most dramatic way. The maneouvre you referred to is just braking by climbing. This is like comparing turning a corner conventionally in a car to driving sideways for a brief period of time.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.81.118 (talk) 05:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: General discussion

message: The F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet can also perform the Cobra, here is video of it, I'm adding them to the list. 
Hornet Cobra Video
http://www.139f.com/portal/show/1306635.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.197.203.139 (talk) 22:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ii can't see any cobra maneuver in this video. At 2:30 it looks like a transition from horizontal to near vertical flight and back and while the aircraft might be flying at a relative high angle of attack you should keep in mind that AOT is measured between wing an the actual flight direction, so an aircraft climbing at an i. e. 45° angle with its nose pointing up in a 70° degree angle is not performing the cobra maneuver. 77.11.203.111 (talk) 02:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hornet Cobra 

message: Although it is true that when doing the Cobra maneuver the high energy bleed rate would put the pilot in a very vulnerable position, it is not the maneuver itself that matters. The point-and-shoot maneuverability and "supermanouverability", if properly utilized in air combat, can yield very high tactical value. The key to success in combat with all-aspect missiles is to shoot first. Supermaneuverability allows a pilot to gain a shot opportunity earlier than with conventional maneuverability. Whet the Cobra maneuver clearly demonstrates is enhanced controllability in the pitch axis.
145.99.155.65 21:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Actual Importance 

message: There are several places in the article where weasel word assertions are made.  This is an encyclopedia - we are supposed to be referencing external authorities - it doesn't matter how good the reasoning is above as per the usefulness or otherwise of this aero, authoritative external sources must be cited.   I have inserted one .  More needed.  Paul Beardsell 23:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  making it up 

message: The controls are doubtless not just centralised to recover - a more deliberate control input will be required.  Where does this (dis)information come from?  No citation will cause deletion of an otherwise excellent diagram.  Paul Beardsell 23:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  problem with the diagram text 

message: The disengaging of an alpha limiter is not an essential feature of this stunt unless the aircraft is fitted with one and not all are.  Deleted this text.  But still a problem with the diagram which, if not fixed, must be removed.  Paul Beardsell 23:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  alpha limiter 

message: Perhaps I am a little older than some here, but I remember the Harrier pulling  "thrust-up" maneuvers very successfully in combat during the Falklands war - the BBC showed several interviews with pilots supporting this. 
So I don't see how it can be said to be of little use. 
If the arguement is that modern long-range missiles make it obselete, then surely that is true of ALL air combat maneuvers 
- yet every airforce in the world still trains pilots in them 
- so I guess a lot of top military strategists must see a certain value in them!!
Sounds like a touch of patriotism before neutrality to me.
Laudable, but not fair-minded.
82.25.243.109 13:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I Second this point of view. If you look at the rates of short range vs. medium range vs. long range missile kills these days its pretty clear short range is still important, if not more important then the other 2 ranges. In fact the only instance of long range kills occured in the 1980's during the Iran Iraq war and the medium range kills constitute less then half of 4th generation aircraft victories.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.81.118 (talk) 05:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harrier VIFF was used in combat ! 

message: Hi, I've just remade my Cobra drawing and re-uploaded it (with no any ambiguous instructions or other extra text). Please tell me what you think. If there are minor changes to be made and you want to make them for me, the Illustrator file is provided. --Henrickson 02:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New drawing added

message: Have you read this one?
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj88/spr88/siuru.html
What do you all think?
Perhaps certain governments think there might be something to it - just think of the amount of money they spend on it!
82.25.255.170 17:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tactical importance of "odd" / "airshow" manoeuvres 

message: It is NOT possible to do Pugachev's Cobra in the "MiG-29" per se, because that aircraft is traditional hydro-mechanic steering. Only analogue or digital fly-by-wire planes, like the Su-27 or the "MiG-29M" (MiG-35) can do the true 110 degrees cobra. The ex-german (now polish) MiG-29 planes were pushrod steering, so they simply cannot do the cobra. The original MiG-29A/B can only do the tailslide. 82.131.210.162 08:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Certainly not the germans 

message: F22 can only do the Cobra with Thrust-Vectoring. So it's in the wrong category. I have moved it to "Thrust vectoring aircraft, such as:"
Second: We really need citations!
@ 82.131.210.162, I saw the ex-german MiG-29 doing the Pugachev's Cobra. The EF2000 manages only 70° (next gen will have TV) but the Mig-29 got over 90°!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.142.119.76 (talk) 09:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I heard the Fulcrum A could only do it if it approached facing 30 degrees downwards. Was this the case or did you perhaps see the TVC Fulcrum?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.81.118 (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  F22 

message: # The Su-30 'Flanker';
# The Su-35 Super Flanker
# The Su-37 'Flanker-F';
Could be written as "The Su-27 family fitted with thrust vectoring"
In this case the Mig-29 TVC prototype should be added to this list
# The Su-47 'Berkut';
Did this aircraft actually perform a Coba at an airshow? Did it ever have TVC installed or did it always have the Mig-31 engines?
# The MiG 1.42;
Did this aircraft ever have its engines completed or TVC installed? It didn't perform at any airshows, lets see a citation for it performing a Cobra
# The Eurofighter Typhoon;
This aircraft does not perform true Cobras and DOES NOT have TVC. It may be outfitted with it later ... perhaps this should be mentioned.
# The F-22 Raptor;
# The F-15 ACTIVE;
# The F-16 MATV/VISTA;
# The NASA Rockwell-MBB X-31
Only solid inclusions. These aircraft are only capable of a Cobra with TVC ... does the F-16 MATV/VISTA have a 1-1 thrust to weigh ratio though? If not it cannot perform a true Cobra.
# The J-35 Draken;
This aircraft does not perform true Cobras and DOES NOT have TVC.
# Russian fighters, designed for high maneuverability, are known for performing this maneuver at air shows for dramatic effect.
# Until recently, the German Luftwaffe have performed the maneuver with Cold-War era MiG-29s (for example at the air show for the Royal Dutch Air Force at Gilze-Rijen Airforce Base, in 2002).
Not sure what the purposes of these parts are. Will delete these last 2 entries.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.81.118 (talk) 06:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested edit of thrust vectoring aircraft capable of maneouvre 

message: The Eurofighter Typhoon is also able to do it.-- 84.161.79.102 (talk) 15:01, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It isnt sourced in the German article either... so no, it cant be added. -Nem1yan (talk) 14:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aircrafts 

message: (A suggestion for re-writing this article)
Have a section describing the maneuver's first appearance - Puachev's Cobra in a Su-27. In the current description section, it sounds like a description for how the maneuver was done in that airframe. I've come across those directions in accounts of Pugachev's Cobra, as well as in some flight sims. So that section is accurate for the original appearance of the maneuver in that airframe.
Then have a second section which talks about the maneuver as performed by other aircraft. That way, none of the detailed info on Pugachev's execution in the Su-27 gets conflicted with info for other planes.
68.236.178.38 (talk) 22:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Break it up 

message: I have a good perception of what technologies prevent an airframe from experiencing departure at high alphas, and the Lockheed Martin F-35 design doesn't employ them. It shouldn't appear on the list of aircraft known to be able to perform the maneuver because it doesn't have that capability. Somebody wanting to contribute to the article but who wasn't knowledgeable about the subject may have confused the Saab J-35 (which is quite capable of the maneuver and sometimes referred to as the F-35) with the Lockheed Martin F-35. For the purposes of verifying the F-35's capability, I searched the two listed sources and google and only found the J-35/F-35 ambiguity.  Mwace (talk) 13:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very confident that the U.S. F-35 is not capable of this maneuver 

message: I am including the PAK FA in the list of thrust vectoring aircraft theoretically capable of the maneuver. The recently declassified images of it indicate both thrust vectoring and oversized leading edge extensions, which themselves are overwhelming evidence to me that the aircraft is capable of the maneuver. If there is a consensus that the PAK FA is capable of Pugachev's Cobra, I will include it in the list of aircraft known to be capable of maneuver. Mwace (talk) 13:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  PAK FA 

message: It was my understanding, from working with AF veterans as well as just being in the aerospace field at the moment, that the F-14 is capable of performing a Cobra. To my dismay, I am encountering difficulties finding reliable information online to credit this, merely word of mouth from the pilots I work with. (which is obviously unsubstantiated, but just hear me out)
While the F-14's wings are smaller, and therefore have less surface area, than something like say the SU-27, or other capable aircraft, the manuver should still work, the deceleration would just be less substantial, thus making it not as useful in arial combat.
I did find this video, which appears to be an F-14 Tomcat performing a cobra.
-Deathsythe (talk) 15:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have heard that it could perform a "mini-cobra", but it was incapable of performing a the full maneuver. If you can find a reliable source, that would be great. Thanks, Aaron mcd (talk) 00:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  F-14 Capabilities 

message: is there any actual evidence of this aircraft performing the maneuver?  I've seen the Eurofighter perform it but never a Rafale  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nem1yan (talk • contribs) 23:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dassault Rafale 

message: :After doing a fair bit of research it appears that the definition of the cobra according to this page is flawed.  This page relies entirely on the Russian definition of the cobra maneuver, even though the maneuver has been performed by numerous aircraft worldwide.  The problem with using the Russian su-27 as the prime and only example is that different planes of course have different characteristics, and these characteristics influence an aircraft's performance in maneuvers (like the cobra).  An F-18 Super Hornet is fully capable of achieving high angles of attack (in excess of 90 degrees) for extended periods of time while retaining control (just as the Su-27 does while performing a cobra maneuver).  The difference arrives when you factor in both aircraft's individual weight, thrust, and wing loading.
:The F-18 is a light aircraft with high thrust, so even when it enters into high alpha maneuvers it has a tendency to climb (same with the mig-29 family).  The Su-27 on the other hand is a very large and heavy aircraft, so when it enters into high alpha maneuvers it wont climb and in full combat armament it actually has had a tendency to begin to fall (the Su-30mki for example has this disadvantage).  The Saab-35 Draken was the first aircraft to perform the maneuver on film, and even though it achieves high alpha and the plane brakes very suddenly the maneuver looks drastically different than with the Su-27.
:Any aircraft able to pitch it's nose up suddenly to an angle of 90 degrees or greater and then pitch back into level flight without losing control.  In order for a plane to be added to the list there needs to be clear video evidence of the aircraft meeting these criteria. Nem1yan (talk) 18:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  True Cobra? 

message: I've tagged the phrase "The figure has several combat uses..." as the cited source appears to state exactly the opposite. Perhaps the editor who contributed this text (or anyone for that matter) could provide a citation that would better support this language? This subject is not my personal bailiwick so I'm just askin'. JakeInJoisey (talk) 11:52, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Combat Uses?  

message: Considering that Wikipedia is an American company using American webservers, an American registrar and a largely-American readerbase, it should be important to note that the American dictionary properly spells the word: "maneuver".  Also, "it's" is a contraction for "it is" not the posessive of it, which is "its".  Let's review:  "it's thing" means "it is thing" and makes you look like a moron, while "its thing" makes "thing" a property or posession of "it".  Krysee (talk) 18:42, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you find fault with the grammar in an article then feel free to improve it. -Nem1yan (talk) 01:33, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language Cleanup 

message: watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGZ0EalNigo&feature=related  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.171.242 (talk) 10:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taiwans IDF doing a cobra ? 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: So i think the article should be renamed to "the Cobra maneuver". Mainly due to Pugachev not inventing the maneuver but also because nobody ever calls it Pugachev's Cobra. Its basically always referred to as the cobra maneuver or simply just the cobra.--Blockhaj (talk) 11:41, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming the article to "the Cobra maneuver" 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: New discussion 2020.
OK so there is effectively an edit war were people keeps adding the F-22 Raptor but doesn't add any good sources. Written sources are either too unspecified, "the F-22 can do the Cobra" or they specify how to perform it incorrectly, "the F-22 uses its vectoring thrusts to perform the cobra". Video proof is the same deal, either the F-22 just turns sharply which gives it some vapor trails (whatever its called in English) or it uses its thrust vectoring to perform Cobra-esc movement such as maneuvering at stall speeds. A cobra is not initiated via thrust vectoring, it is initiated by elevator control and the fast change of alpha comes from an instability in the aircraft, not avionics. If you look at actual footage of the Cobra performed by jets such as the Su-27 or Saab 35 and compare them to the stall climbs of the F-22 you can easily spot the difference. The Cobra maneuver is natural, the F-22 stall climb is forced. Note that the F-22 is not alone in performing fake Cobra's, Su-30's performs similar maneuvers at airshows where it uses its thrust vectoring to maneuver at stall speeds but still calls it Cobra.
Su-27 performing the Cobra, Time stamped: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lENodGzJ2gM&feature=youtu.be&t=55
Note how it uses only its elevators to initiate the Cobra and how the aircraft naturally keeps raising its nose even after the elevators have stopped maneuvering.
Saab 35 performing the Cobra, Time stamped: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbN3FucjlJg&feature=youtu.be&t=211
Note how it like the Su-27 just uses its elevators to initiate it and how the aircraft naturally raises its nose. Also note how it dips one of its wings to to not achieve too much lift during the maneuver as the Saab 35 being a double delta has much more initial lift compared to the Su-27.
Now take a look at any video claiming to show an F-22 Performing a Cobra, example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4&t=2s, example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUdt6ZSWUsI Just search F-22 Cobra on youtube etc. All of them will show the same thing. The F-22 forcing a stall and then maneuvering using its thrust vectoring and avionics. Sure it is impressive and definitely counts as super maneuverability but it is not a Cobra. The Cobra is Natural, whatever you want to call the F-22's equivalent is not.
--Blockhaj (talk) 19:03, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: In the YouTube links you showed for the f-22, there is barely any climb. And also, the pitch angle was 100-110 so it’s fair to call it a cobra. Recent su-57 demos show a lot of climb in their ‘cobras’ so if su-57 counts as being able to cobra, f-22 should too Gamerbirb0928 (talk) 12:04, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  F-22 2020 discussion 

message: Largely unreferenced stub of dubious importance that is already mentioned in the main article. Ost (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: In support.--Blockhaj (talk) 07:18, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

text: Support Kyteto (talk) 02:54, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge of [[Cobra Turn]] into [[Cobra maneuver#Derivatives of the Cobra]] 

message: I wondering if there is a list for all the planes that can perform a cobra maneuver. or if someone somehow knows all the planes that can do the cobra maneuver Experience31 (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a list in the article.--Blockhaj (talk) 02:20, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  is there a list for this?