Talk:Anti-German sentiment/Archive 1

message: What about a web site like this http://www.thetrumpet.com. Should not be something like this be part of the article. LordofHavoc 16:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: About Anti_German sentiment

message: Good, Molobo, it pleases me indeed to see you act the way you did here. Sticking to the issue, addressing relevant matters, leaving the discussion for the Talk Page and not re-reverting to your version; one may say you should have done this before actually editing the article, but that is irrelevant when such an overall positive attitude can be observed. As I have disagreed with you in the past, it would be unfair not to recognise your commendable change of behavior. Let´s stick to the discussed topics, one by one, then.
*German antisemitism made use of accusing Jews of anti-german sentiment-this should be added to the article. I agree. In a very related sense, it reminds me of the discussion surrounding Anti-Polonism. As in that article, anti-Germanism is both a reality and a fiction, closely related. A reality, since there is an authentic sentiment among several ethnic-religious-national circles. And a fiction, since it also is an ideological forgery used by certain extremist German groups to divert acussations of Anti-semitism towards them. So basically, we observe the very same situation that exists in other European countries, and the matter was referred to at Anti-Polonism regarding the Polish case. Just like at said article, I propose we make here a section similar to the one you added there of "Misuse of the term", in this case explaining the misuse made by the German fringe political parties and/or politicians, and clearly separating it from the real anti-German sentiment as deontological phenomenon. Allow me to warn, however, that such a sensitive section should definetely have extensive and solid sources and references, like the ones provided at Anti-Polonism. I'm afraid that leaves the Google books you provided out of the equation. Websites in foreign languages must be translated at the relevant parts, and the translation posted here. It shouldn't be too hard to find alternative (verifiable) sources; I'll help with that if I can.
*German nationalists also used accusations of anti-German sentiment to justify wars, territorial conquests and persecutions of other ethnic groups.This also should be added. Another point that could be added at the Misuse of the term section. No objection if properly distinguished from the true matter.
*Right now the article states that that there is anti-german sentiment in Poland and Norway.It doesn't explain why. They are several historic reasons for existance of such sentiments in Poland-WW2 atrocities, lack of persecution of those responsible in many cases, lack of war reperations, the fact that Germany didn't reckognise Polish border till 90s,actions of certain groups in Germany.This explanation should be added. While I praise your intention, there is also a major WP guideline at stake here, and it is that of relevance. WW2 as a major historical issue in the perception of Germany and the German people is properly mentioned at the article, without going into unnecessary detail. In fact, if the intention of this article was to make a list of all the points of conflict between Germany and Poland, it should definetely be renamed to German-Polish disputes and conflicts throughout History (no, I hope no one edits that link!) and it would be huge, starting in the Middle Ages, continuing through Prussia and the Kingdom of Poland, the XIX century and the German Empire, Bismarck, WWI and the Treaty of Versailles... I feel that it is well enough as it is; everybody knows about WW2 and the deep impact it caused in the German-Polish relations, and the event is well referenced as such. Further including specifical political issues is also, at best, speculative; there is no way to know if i.e. "the actions of certain groups" have had a major impact in the Polish population over any other fact(s) which are not mentioned. To sum it up: it is undenyable that, as you say, the major chasm between the nations was WW2 and its many consequences; further enumerating issues which relevance to the article is debatable at best can add nothing positive to it, other than stirring an useless discussion over the extent of the impact of each of them in the German perception abroad.
*The article contains information that Germany was a peacefull country during postwar period.This is true-however Germany didn't relinquish territorial demands towards Poland for a very long period, which served as breeding ground for anti-German sentiment.This should be added. It is true that some German politicians have made demagogical territorial demands towards Poland (although often destined to their potential voters, rather than to Poland itself). Yet, the connection between anti-Germanism and such episodes is not so clear. Stating that there exists anti-Germanism in Poland because of it, is not only extremely simplifying the issue, but it also lies on the verge of original research. Of course, if you could provide a number of sources that qualify whithin the criteria we've discussed above (thus proving a direct connection between both facts), I'd be happy to see it at the article.
*The article claim that German people suffer unjustly from stereotypes. This is true and shouldn't be changed.However we should add that reason for steoreotyping can be minorities in Germany such as Neo-nazi organisations still present in Germany, nationalists parties that score points in local elections, and attacks on asylum seekers that happen there etc. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. The stereotype comes rather as result of WW2, and the facts that you mentions (while authentic) are insignificant in their impact on the German image abroad. It is widely known that Germany has one of the highest immigration rates of all Europe and it possesses one of the most flexible asylum systems when compared to i.e. France or the UK; and one of the largest Muslim communities in Europe is precisely the German one. Yet never has Germany witnessed events of minorities protesting for being discriminated or mistreated as it recently happened in France. The facts that you mention have indeed a much smaller presence in Germany than France, for example, and as such, its importance regarding the image of present day Germans is irrelevant.
Thank you in advance for your responces. My pleasure to answer, Molobo, I hope we can get to discuss more in this same constructive way. Alexbulg 18:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sticking to the issues

message: OK, first of all their is another article which covers the same thematical area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organised_persecution_of_ethnic_Germans#United_States
I decided to start my points here, because the former participants seemed to be quite reasonable.
Please excuse my english...
It was doubted if their is anything like a anti-german sentiment, well some facts: 
Take the anti-german propaganda in WWI : I.e. in Josef von Sternberg movies german soldiers with pickelhaube where portrayed as plundering France and raping and killing their women. Take [Hearts of the World] or "The Hun Within".
AFAIK German speakers were the by far biggest immigration group in the US, more than English speakers including Irish. More than 20 % of the American population claim to be of German descent. Before WWI almost 10% of the schoolkids got their education in German, hundreds of newspapers were puplished in German. 
All of this ceased to exist, plenty of people were encouraged change their names (Schmidt->Smith), abandon German culture and assimilate into Anglo-Saxon America. look at http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/immig/german8.html
Nowaday I know plenty of Hollywood movies about Italo-Americans, Irish-Americans, Afro-Americans, Latinos  ... even Russian-Americans (the Deer Hunter).
What about German Americans? (please except the Amish in "The Last Witness" and criminals of war who immigrated after war).
The only simpathetic example I can remember is the Father in [Rich Man Poor Man] ... hei look he was a soldier in WWI and immigrated afterwards. 
You can tell the German influence in modern American cultur is everywhere: Hamburger, Bretzel, Hot Frankfurter, Christmas Tree, Brother Grimms Fairy Tales but where are the normal american born Germans in Hollywood? 
How many American stars with German heritage used their German family name? Neither Doris Day nor John Denver. It seems the only who dare using their German names are Jewish actors like Jack Klugman.
Some other facts: In Brazil, France and several eastern european countries the German minorities were forbidden to get german school lessons.
We shouldn't discuss here if all these actions were justified, we should discuss why they are completely unknown to the public. 
LanX --217.224.5.152 05:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organised persecution of ethnic Germans 

message: That is all a bit simple, gentlemen, is it not? Would you not agree that a highly complex and heterogenous industrial society like the German (of which 10 % are of non-German provenance) deserves a bit more differentiation than the insight you provided so far? Apart from wondering, where you've got all your information about that society's current situation from, it does not seem very sophisticated to me, if you lump all sociological aspects of a diversified country together and declare an over-all condition about how the ordinary German of 2006 is. 
As for America: That a society, whoose very identity and strength is based on the phenomenon of mass-immigration from a politically fragmented Europe, is more welcoming to immigrants than traditional societies is self-evident. Teodorico 23:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Teodorico, more sophistication is precisely what we can use in this article. If I understand Sam correctly, this is also one of the reasons that brought him to wonder if we can find more sources to the sentiments. In other words, I like what you say, and encourage you to just go for it. As for the US: yes this was usually the perception of immigration, although economically and even socially there were and are different indications on (perceptions of) costs and benefits from immigration. But who cares, globally speaking we just love diversity, as evident from the research that Sam also refers to. For more sophistication on American immigration and diversity, also with a lot of (self) critisism, please see other articles then this friendly exchange between an American in Europe and a European in America. Reagrds, gidonb 17:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sophistication

message: One would need to include much more history than done so far. Beside, the devision into time periods is nonsense - anti-"what ever" sentiments don't start or stop at once - they build up slowly, are given from generation to generation and divide into political criticism which are often abused by politicians and than turn into sentiments towards a certain population and (partly pretty simple) generalisations. If consequent, we would need to divide the article into a prejudices-section and political-criticism-section. But as it is done so far, it does not make sense at all, sorry. --Mandavi 20:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I demand the immediate creation of the articles Anti-Islandic sentiment, anti-purple sentiment, and Anti-Broccoli sentiment. -- 790 14:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  lame concept of the article 

message: Sleeping Beauty is an interesting case study. Look carefully and take notice that, in a short scene early on, many of Maleficent's hellish warthog hirelings wear pickelhaubes. Later, after the spell has been cast by evil Maleficent (involving the spindle), a longer scene shows the three fairy's sneaking into Maleficent's castle, where we see the warthogs (with their pickelhaube's covered, it appears) dancing around a wildfire like pagans.
Consider this scripted scene, as the three fairy's unchain the prince and free him from the dungeon, producing for his use a sword and shield:
::Fairy 1: so [I issue to you] this enchanted shield of virtue and this mighty sword of truth. For these weapons of righteousnness will triumph over evil.
::(Prince takes the weapons)
::Cut to a shot of a bird of prey, suspiciously similar the German eagle. The bird alerts the demonic warthogs, who emerge charging down the steps, now donning their pickelhaubes.
::The prince fends them off with the shield and sword of so-called "virtue" and "truth" and races to his horse. They continue to fire weapons of all kinds, but with the help of the fairies, they turn into soft and harmless things like bubbles and flowers
::lastly, at approximately 01:07:17:00 into the film (1 hr, 7 min, 17 sec), the bird is transformed into stone by one of the fairies as it tries to alert Maleficent that the prince has escaped. If that isn't an incarnation of the German eagle, I don't know what is.
Now don't forget kids, sympathizing with "German nationalism" is sympathizing with Maleficent, or in other words, hell.
Now before I continue, it should be mentioned that some are of the opinion (Brothers' Grimm) that SB was a Germanic tale and it certainly has a Wagnerian feel. Oh, the irony in the fact that Wagner is the centerpiece of proud Germanic identity that the Nazis and the Kaiserreich were seen to be exponents of.
Now Perhaps the Disney film and its references to Prussianism are not an implication against all Germans, but I think the problem we run into here, just like any other Anti-x article, is whether negative sentiments attributed to the "percieved behavior of a group" demonstrate a group bias or hatred against "certain members within that group for doing y". Hence User:White Guard's somewhat sensationalist argument that "oh those poor Germans, if one they hadn't been expansionsist, etc" While it is ironic that, he too, generalizes, I think it is important to mention that the destinction between these two different "haters" has never been made, especially in regards to anti-Semitism.
Again, SB may or may not be the same broad brush that the previous contributor mentions, but along the lines mentioned above, what it says about certain Germans is just as anti-German as a money hoarding caricature of a Jew is anti-Semitic. Certainly, the film's portrayal of "Prussianism" is an oversimplification that best resembles Allied propaganda from the First World War, blaming those "within group x for doing y". In this case, y seen to be aggressive militarism, but again, we run into difficulty in attributing bias. 
Does it matter why such labels are attributed, for example, in the midst of war or a certain political situation? I think the same must be asked about modern day Anti-Americanism. What is the case here? It is interesting to note that the phrase Prussianization has entered the vocabulary as leftist jingoism, regardless as to whether such conditions even existed in Prussia or Germany.
A lot of British propaganda towards Germany in WWI focused on the "barbaric characteristics" of Germans. In 14-18: Understanding the Great War, it is mentioned that British papers cried out about the barely civilized Germans who could not resist war and had barely tamed their "animalistic tendencies" or "attributes", i.e. their "primal" eating habits and excessive feet sweating. Comments?--72.92.7.49 20:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Walt Disney, etc.

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