Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Richard Wagner/Archive 3

message: I'm not sure how a useful consensus can be reached on this (with so few people posting), but I believe everyone is happy with either the top or bottom of these? User:Lethesl/My_sandbox Perhaps we should vote? Also, numbers or Roman numerals? Numerals tend to be common for opera in act numbers, as well as movement numbers in other classical music. Lethe 17:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I've already indicated that my preference would be for the lower one as it keeps the Ring together, but from the conversation above I'm in a minority.--Peter cohen 19:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Narrowed down

message: Do we want to record somewhere more permanent our mid-terms ambitions for articles? I know
User:Dogbertd has FA ambitions for Parsifal and Tristan und Isolde and more generally for the other late work and the RW article. I agree that FA should be our long term ambition for all the mature works. but should we perhaps have a monthly drive to achieve an aim for a particular article? I'm thinking particularly of reaching GA, A and FA levels.
Obviously Dogbertd is currently working on getting Tristan ready as a GA candidate. I don't want to commit to anything this month when I'm already working on the assessment here and assorted Czech works for WP:WPO, but I don't think too much work would be needed to get Die Feen to GA. Also, having looked at the Parsifal article, I feel that I can help with the points that prevented be marking it as A-grade.
So it would be nice to have these recorded as project ambitions. I realise that there is a danger of "too many cooks", but I also think a shared focus will help. For example with Die Feen, I've had no experience with working on sound files and I don't have access to Grove or the other big opera dictionaries. If we had someone able to help with those sort of tasks as part of a monthly drive, even if there were one or two people that took the lead, that would be useful.
My suggestions for drives:
*Month one: Tristan to GA 
*Month two: Die Feen to GA
*Month three: Parsifal to A
*Month five: The RW article
*Month four: Something focussed on the Ring or one of its constituents
*Month six: one of the middle operas.
I'm thinking of each six months having three drives on the late seven operas, and one each on the early operas, the middle three operas, and biographical articles on Wagner himself, a performer or another connected person. Once we have made soem progress on the last seven operas, we can reduce to maybe a Ring task every six months and a non-Ring one. Apart form the opera articles themselves, there are complete discographies to do and, especially for the Ring, I would want a list cataloguing the leitmotives with sound samples.
As an ambition for the project, I would like when our first full year as a project end next May to have promoted several articles to GA, and to end the following year with some FAs and all the major works at at least GA.--Peter cohen 13:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monthly drives and mid-term ambitions 

message: I have nominated Parsifal as our only GA for the 0.7 project.  The article on RW himself is already in there as high priority and I thought he was looking lonely. If I was going on importance in the history of culture alone, I probably would have picked one of Tristan or the Ring as our first opera candidate. I suggest we see how Parsifal gets on as a candidate and see what ratings we give to the more important articles and then decide whether to nominate them. --Peter cohen 12:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia 0.7, 1.0 

message: Other projects assess importance of articles as well as quality. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mythology/Assessment for an example. It might be useful to do the same here.
My first thoughts:
*Top
**Richard Wagner, of course
**Tristan und Isolde, most important work for history of music
**Der Ring des Nibelungen, the core work
*High
**Cosima Wagner 
**Lohengrin (Wagner), most important of middle operas, contains that wedding march. 
**Das Rheingold 
**Die Walküre
**Siegfried (opera) 
**Götterdämmerung
**Tristan und Isolde
**Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
**Parsifal
**Bayreuth Festival
**Bridal Chorus
**Ride of the Valkyries
*Medium
**Die Feen (1833) significant because first complete
**Das Liebesverbot (1836) significant because first performed
**Rienzi (1840) significant because first big success
**Der fliegende Holländer (1843) 
**Tannhäuser (opera)
**Wagner controversies 
**Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen:_Composition_of_the_text 
**Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen:_Composition_of_the_music 
**Das Judenthum in der Musik 
**Wolfgang Wagner 
**Wieland Wagner 
**Ludwig II of Bavaria 
**Hans Hotter
**Siegfried Idyll
**Wesendonck Lieder
**Wolfgang Windgassen
**Gustav Neidlinger
**Birgit Nilsson
**Friedrich Schorr
**Lauritz Melchior
**Kirsten Flagstad
**Lilli Lehmann
**Wilhelmine Schroder-Devrient
**Amalia Materna
**Ludwig Schnorr von Carolsfeld
**Wilhelmine Schroder-Devrient
**Josef Tichatschek
**Georg Unger
**Karl Hill
**Franz Betz
**Hans Knappertsbusch
**Wilhelm Furtwängler
**Hans von Bülow
**Hermann Levi
**Hans Richter
**Karl Muck
*Low
**Die Hochzeit (1832) It's largely missing; it's uncompleted.
**Arthur Schopenhauer 
**Friedrich Nietzsche 
**Franz Liszt 
**Siegfried Wagner 
**Winifred Wagner 
**Ernest Newman 
**George Bernard Shaw
** Bayreuth Festspielhaus
**Bayreuth Circle
**Faust Overture and various other works without articles
Innumerable singers, conductors, commentators and directors.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter cohen (talk • contribs) 11:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should first finish the assessments, then discuss any importance rating in the absence of any lists, and only after that get into the detail. Many of the articles above are not even in Wagner categories! Let's keep our feet on the ground - and please sign your comments! -- Kleinzach 14:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assessment of Importance 

message: I have created this new category to go with the Wagner family tree, distantly modelled on the :Category:Kennedy family. This effectively emptied the top :Category:Richard Wagner except for Ludwig II of Bavaria. Reviewing the latter I've decided to remove this: most of the material in this article is historical or architectural, rather than about RW. Ludwig might belong in a Wagnerite cat - but that was deleted some time ago. If anyone is unhappy about this let me know, but I hope the new arrangement is more logical. -- Kleinzach 02:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is Ludwig Geyer classified under :Category:Wagner studies, not :Category:Wagner family? I think his role as a stepfather should count as being in the family. And what about relatives by marriage i.e. lizt, von Bulow (sort of)?--Peter cohen 12:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a new one that I was unaware of - I've moved it to :Category:Wagner family, put a project banner on it and assessed it. I have my doubts about whether it will grow into a useful article. -- Kleinzach 15:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  and surely Minna is entitled to an article?Smerus 12:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[:Category:Wagner family]]

message: Um - shouldn't Bayreuth Festspielhaus be somewhere in a Wagner category - if so which?, now that :Category:Richard Wagner has been emptied in its own right? Smerus 12:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. I don't see why some of these things can't live in the main category. I don't think it is altogether empty, anyway.--Peter cohen 14:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I have put Bayreuth Festspielhaus, like Bayreuth Festival in the RW cat and put a project banner on it. -- Kleinzach 16:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bayreuth articles

message: Have we been over-optimistic in our summary. Here's a table of operas and our marks.
Wagner Opera Assessment results
Opera                         	G 	K 	P    	span
Die Feen                      	64	70	64   	6
Das Liebesverbot              	40	30	34   	10
Rienzi                        	32	34	32   	2
The Flying Dutchman (opera)   	55	48	47   	8
Tannhäuser (opera)            	65	54	52   	13
Lohengrin (Wagner)            	31	30	33   	3
Tristan und Isolde            	70	70	74   	4
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg	58	60	51   	9
Der Ring des Nibelungen       	63	? 	55   	8+
Parsifal                      	? 	81	78/82	3+
The span column is the difference between out top and bottom rating for that work. 16 is over half the width of a grade, 10 and 13 a third or more, and our median span of 8 is over a quarter a grade width, as is our mean.
I've excluded the Ring operas, as we weren't agreed on how to allow for the composition of the ring articles. I've excluded the Ring itself because an over-zealous admin has gone and deleted our comments.--Peter cohen 16:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The marks for Parsifal are not correct. I did not mark Parsifal, nor did GT. Where did GT's other figures come from? He didn't record them on the comments pages. In any case I don't think this table is useful because the figures by themselves don't mean much. -- Kleinzach 16:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I recorded my marks at one of my sandboxes and provided a pointer during one of our now archived  discussions:  User:GuillaumeTell/Wagner_ratings.  Peter corrected my mis-adding-up of the Lohengrin figures.  And indeed I didn't rate Parsifal. --GuillaumeTell 18:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I archive this now? I need to do this before we go to the Opera Project. -- Kleinzach 16:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. And why? --Peter cohen 19:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Peter, as you are against archiving this. I've made a new section for you. -- Kleinzach 00:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessments: Table of operas

message: I'm creating various pages to mirror :Category:WikiProject Mythology and its assessment sup-pages, specifically ones to record our stub, start, B and GA articles. If we mirror, the structure in more detail we should belong to a :Category:WikiProject Opera page that doesn't yet exist rather than directly belonging to culture.--Peter cohen 10:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessments: Creating various project subpages

message: I think it is now high time to prioritise material. I'll issue my proposal once I've finished the class categorisation, unless someone wants to beat me to it. --Peter cohen 10:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessments: Wagner articles by priority