Talk:Bridal theology

message: Will try to fix this up soon Lambdove 19:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Old comment

message: This article's lead explicitly states that it is the same concept as mystical marriage, so why have two articles? HrafnTalkStalk(P) 18:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As nobody has objected, I'll proceed with the merger. As mystical marriage is wholly unsourced, I'll place its contents here, in talk, until such time as it can be sourced (per WP:V). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 05:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: In the Bible (Old and New Testament), the love of God for man, and in particular his relations with his chosen people (whether of the Jewish synagogue or of the Christian church), are frequently typified under the form of the relations between bridegroom (God) and bride (mortal). A mystical union may easily be travestied by an unsympathetic writer, by emphasizing physical or trivial details of human marriage: the classic example from Greek mythology is the myth of Pasiphaë, whose union with the solar bull was rendered by Hellenic mythographers as an unnatural passion for a specific bull, made possible by a cow-like contraption built by Daedalus, within which Pasiphaë literally consummated her carnal desires. Much was made by disapproving Christian writers like Arnobius of the "rapes" of Zeus (Jupiter).
In Christianity, virginity been considered from the earliest centuries as a special offering made by the soul to its spouse, Jesus Christ. Nothing else seems to have been meant in speaking of the mystical nuptials of Saint Agnes and of St. Catherine of Alexandria, or that of the Blessed Virgin, as Spouse of the Holy Spirit(as she had Conceived Christ, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, in the Gospels according to Sts. Matthew and Luke). These primitive notions were afterwards developed more completely, and the phrase mystical marriage has been taken in two different senses, the one wide and the other more restricted. 
(1) In many of the lives of the saints, the wide sense is intended. Here the mystical marriage consists in a vision in which Christ tells a soul that He takes it for His bride, presenting it with the customary wedding ring, and the apparition is accompanied by a ceremony; the Blessed Virgin, other saints and angels are present. This festivity is but the accompaniment and symbol of a purely spiritual grace; hagiographers do not make clear what this grace is, but it may at least be said that the soul receives a sudden augmentation of charity and of familiarity with God, who will thereafter take more special care of it. All this, indeed, is involved in the notion of marriage. Moreover, as a wife should share in the life of her husband, and as Christ suffered for the redemption of mankind, the mystical spouse enters into a more intimate participation in Jesus' sufferings. Accordingly, in three cases out of every four, the mystical marriage has been granted to stigmatics. Dr. Imbert estimated that from the earliest times to the 2àth century history has recorded seventy-seven mystical marriages; they are mentioned in connection with female saints, beatae and venerabiles—e.g. Blessed Angela of Foligno, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Colette, St. Teresa, St. Catherine of Ricci, Venerable Marina d'Escobar, St. Mary Magdalen de' Pazzi, St. Veronica Giuliani, Venerable Maria de Agreda. Religious art has exercised its resources upon mystical marriage, considered as a festive celebration. That of St. Catherine of Alexandria is the subject of Hans Memling's masterpiece (in St. John's Hospital, Bruges), as also of paintings by Jordaens (Madrid), Antonio da Correggio (Naples and the Louvre) and others; Fra Bartolommeo has done as much for St. Catherine of Siena. 
 
(2) In a more restricted sense, the term mystical marriage is employed by St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross to designate that mystical union with God which is the most exalted condition attainable by the soul in this life. It is also called a "transforming union", "consummate union" and "deification". St. Teresa likewise calls it "the seventh resting-place" of the "interior castle"; she speaks of it only in the last treatise she composed five years before her death, when she had been but recently raised to this degree. This state consists of three elements: 
* an almost continual sense of the presence of God, even in the midst of external occupations. This favour does not of itself produce an alienation of the senses; ecstasies are more rare. Nor does this permanent sense of God's presence suffice to constitute the spiritual marriage, but is only a state somewhat near to it. 
* a transformation of the higher faculties in respect to their mode of operation: hence the name "transforming union"; it is the essential note of the state. The soul is conscious that in its supernatural acts of intellect and of will, it participates in the Divine life and the analogous acts in God. To understand what is meant by this, it must be remembered that in heaven we are not only to enjoy the vision of God, but to feel our participation in His nature. Mystical writers have sometimes exaggerated in describing this grace; it has been said that we think by the eternal thought of God, love by His infinite love and will by His will. Thus they appear to confound the Divine and human natures. They are describing what they believe they feel; like the astronomers, they speak the language of appearances, which we find easier to understand. Here, as in human marriage, there is a fusion of two lives. 
* an habitual vision of the Blessed Trinity or of some Divine attribute. This grace is sometimes accorded before the transforming union. Certain authors appear to hold that in the transforming union there is produced a union with the Divine Word more special than that with the other two Divine Persons; but there is no proof that this is so in all cases. St. Teresa gives the name of "spiritual betrothal" to passing foretastes of the transforming union, such as occur in raptures.
[End of unsourced merger material. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 05:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Mystical marriage -- history 

message: The article, as it stands, is essentially a quotefarm, often of WP:PRIMARY sources, and often with inadequate citation. My intention is to sometime in the near future move all material, that does not have discussion (not merely quotation) sourced to a valid citation to a secondary source, here to talk. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 05:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotefarm 

message: ====Jeanne Marie Bouvier de la Motte Guyon (1647-1717)====
Jeanne Marie Bouvier de la Motte Guyon was a French mystic. Her written works include, “The Song of Songs of Solomon.”
VERSE 1. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth.
THIS kiss, which the soul desires of its God, is essential union, or a real, permanent and lasting possession of its divine object. It is the SPIRITUAL MARRIAGE.
… This, then, is the lofty and intimate union that the Spouse so pressingly demands at the hand of the Bridegroom. She asks it of Him as though she was addressing another; an impetuous sally of love, giving vent to her passion without particular thought as to whom she was speaking. Let Him kiss me, says she, since He can do it, but let it be with the kisses of His mouth; no other union can content me; that alone can satisfy all my desires, and that is what I demand.Song of Songs of Solomon / Explanations and Reflections having Reference to the Interior Life
[End of primary-source quote-farm material HrafnTalkStalk(P) 06:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Developments in the Reformation

message: Jeanne Marie Bouvier de la Motte Guyon was a French mystic. Her written works include, “The Song of Songs of Solomon.”
VERSE 1. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth.
THIS kiss, which the soul desires of its God, is essential union, or a real, permanent and lasting possession of its divine object. It is the SPIRITUAL MARRIAGE.
… This, then, is the lofty and intimate union that the Spouse so pressingly demands at the hand of the Bridegroom. She asks it of Him as though she was addressing another; an impetuous sally of love, giving vent to her passion without particular thought as to whom she was speaking. Let Him kiss me, says she, since He can do it, but let it be with the kisses of His mouth; no other union can content me; that alone can satisfy all my desires, and that is what I demand.Song of Songs of Solomon / Explanations and Reflections having Reference to the Interior Life
[End of primary-source quote-farm material HrafnTalkStalk(P) 06:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Jeanne Marie Bouvier de la Motte Guyon (1647-1717)

message: Same topic, and this is a stub. Should probably just redirect to a full article. Bakkster Man (talk) 20:38, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect to [[Bride of Christ]]? 

message: There is a significant difference between mystical marriage and the interrelated verses in the Bible that refer to the Bridegroom, the Bride, the Wedding Banquet, etc.
Mystical marriage refers to some of the spiritual experiences of God of individual saints and mystics.
   
The verses in the Bible concerning the spousal relationship of God with His people can be subsumed under Bridal theology and/or the Bride of Christ.
In the Old Testament the spousal relationship appears very sporadically,  and conveys the intimacy and commitment of God to His people and His anger at their infidelity.  It's most strongly expressed in Hosea (esp. Hos Chapters 1,2 and beginning of 3) in which God calls Hosea to marry Gomer, an unfaithful wife (a harlot), as a witness to Israel's unfaithfulness.  But Hosea cannot stop loving her.  And God does not seek divorce, but the unfaithful person's return. (Source the introduction to the book of Hosea in the NAB 1987, and others) This uses the force of poetic imagery to describe spiritual experience.  The prophets who followed Hosea pick up the theme of bridegroom and bride most especially Isaiah.--
Then suddenly in the New Testament the spousal relationship takes a specific form--Jesus is the Bridegroom. John the Baptist says, "the one who has the bride is the bridegroom" (Jn. 3:29).  Jesus refers to the bridegroom in his comments in the three Synoptics on why his followers don't fast (Mt. 9:15; Mk. 2:19; Lk. 5:34).  His parables include the Wedding Banquet and the Wise and Foolish virgens who are awaiting the Bridegroom (Mt. 25:1-13).  He says that marriage isn't needed in heaven (re the woman with seven husbands).
The early Church heard Him, as is reflected in Paul's discourse on wives and husbands (Eph. 21-33); Galatians 4:27 points us to the O.T. through Isaiah 54:1. Also 2 Cor. 11:2.
Revelation is filled with scenes of destruction.  The only Good News is the Marriage which is yet to come in Rev. 19:7 (The Marriage is the Second Coming of Christ)--and also 3:12 (the first mention of the new Jerusalem); 21:2, 9-10; 22:17.  Rev. 21:2,9-10--uses various terms for the bride:  "the holy city, a new Jerusalem, a bride, the wife of the Lamb"  This has direct parallels in the O.T.--in Jeremiah, who mentions the bridegroom and the bride 4 times (33:10-11 etc.); Joel mentions them once.  Isaiah takes up this theme and repeatedly refers to the city/Jerusalem/Zion/daughter Zion, the bride/the wife/the mother.  He begins by saying, "This is a prophecy concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (i.e. male and female) Is. 1:1 and 2:1.  There are various Songs of the Bride--see Is. 54:1-7 and 62:1-12.  At least 4 times he says the Bride will be Forsaken--and speaks of her final vindication.   
This is a first draft.  I need to think about how to better express this.--Margaret9mary (talk) 22:45, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mystical marriage or Bride of Christ? 

message: In at least one sense, yes.  If you do--or don't--believe in God you have a biased POV.  If you are Christian or non-Christian you have a POV.  And centuries ago, Christians fought wars over different interpretations of the Bible.  However, since some 2 billion people on earth are Christians of one sect or another, and since billions more believe in a monotheistic God (Judaism or Islam), or many gods, or in spiritual experiences; and form together as groups; and some of these beliefs have endured for thousands of years, the subject of religion has a place in Wikipedia.  One can't describe them without their "bias"; it's unavoidable.--Margaret9mary (talk) 01:45, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is religion a biased POV? 

message: "no negative connotations are sharpened for orthodox thinkers" - what does this mean? That for "orthodox thinkers" (Catholics?) there are no "negative connotations" or that the "negative connotations" are acceptably blunt?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.241.196 (talk) 19:18, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "sharpening" of "negative connotations" 

message: I suggest merging Brautmystik into Bridal theology. To the best of my understanding they refer to the same concept (note Bernard of Clairvaux mentioned as a prominent theologian for both), and the former is extremely brief. — Moriwen (talk) 20:30, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Both are rather inadequate articles, puzzling to the reader. I don't think mystical marriage should redirect here at all, but to a disam page for the various specific examples.  Your ideas of what an "extremely brief" article is seem odd to me. Johnbod (talk) 04:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

text: Brautmystik could certainly become a subcategory on the bridal theology page, as it seems to just be a historical example of this phenomenon (as well as a surprisingly short and barebones article). However, it feels more pertinent to merge bridal theology with the larger Bride of Christ page, as the two feel way too similar to be separate pages imo. Dognamedguinefort (talk) 20:56, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I could get behind that as well.— Moriwen (talk) 22:27, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal