Talk:Rochester Castle

message: A note I'd like to incorporate if somebody could supply the relevant dates:
The castle is notable for having three square towers and one round. During a siege in (????) the north west tower was undermined and demolished. It was later replaced by the round tower (a design which is allegedly better at withstanding battering rams) which survives to this day.
Lee M 00:58, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Reign of King John IIRC, have books on the castle back at home. Actaully its the South eastern tower that is now round (of the keep and outer wall). Round because of advnaces in technology proved them to be better for stability - it was previosuly undermined. Pickle 23:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you can see from the photo, its the far left tower. My memory was failing, there is a gap between the curtain wall and keep. Pickle 18:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  old question 1 

message: Is it worth noting that it is the tallest Norman keep in the country? I can't remember where I picked up that 'fact' so can it be verified by anyone? --LiamE 10:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  old question 2 

message: Whereabouts was the castle was it on a cliff or motte or was there just a moat ? 81.77.34.83 08:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: its beside the river on a mound, thus the river bank (now esplanade) is to the west, the high street is lower to the north, the cathedral is level-ish to the east (moat was built there, formerly had houses in, now a car park and cemetery). to the south is level/higher - site of roman fort/Norman wooden keep - now a private residence, minimal moat. Pickle 23:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  old question 3 

message: From the history section. Makes no sense. What is a well known spa, formerly a kitchen? The sentence seems to refer to the road bridge mentioned in the previous sentence.
:Vandalism placed 19 Feb 2009 by ip-user. --ClemRutter (talk) 20:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "This is also a well known spa nowadays but when it was first built it was a massive kitchen." 

message: I've made some fairly sweeping changes, and alas am not immediately in a position to cite sources at this point
I have removed reference to a motte and bailey castle on boley hill.  The name is misleading, but there is no evidence of a keep on boley hill (And wouldn't motte hill have been a more likely name if there was?.  I have also removed reference to a moat, as Rochester never had one (although the river used to meet the wall before the medway began to silt up (the land reclaimed fomr the river is the car park referred to by the previous writer.
i've also moved the construction of the wall to prior to first siege, and made clear that that is generally ocnsidered to have been a seige of the city, not the castle.  I have also moved gandalf's walls back before this seige.
I hav added mentiopn of prince luis occupation (we have very little information on it, so there isn't much to cite) and a few more details on Henry IIIs works.  I have skipped over Edward III, as i need to try to dig out some degree notes before I challenge the published historyu of the castle, and in particular see if i can still find a very good photo of the cathedral framed between Edward III's towers, taken form the spot where the Edward III built his new hall.
I have added some noted on Richard II's works, although beyond the bridge and bastion my memory is sketchy, and added a bit on the later history (althoguh i can;t immediately recall the name of the man the castle was given to, and i'm not 100% that it wasn't sold to the city in the early 20th century  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.83.52 (talk) 01:14, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Some work left to do. The references are essential- 
*it would be good if the previous editor could get a wikipedia login so we talk- and benefit from his knowledge in 
similar articles.
* we have the tallext keep in England claim again.
* a POV on the Boley Hill House- is a motte /is not a motte claim
* it is not clear which photograph the writer wants- if it is not on :commons:Category:Rochester Castle one can be taken as soon as the cloud clears
* The references are essential
--ClemRutter (talk) 09:07, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

text: I've added a little to the article. While I have Allen Brown's guidebook (second edition I think, although I'd have to double check), the 2006 volume on the architecture and archaeology of Rochester looks to be quite important to the article. I'd like to help expand it, but don't want to tread on toes if there's already a plan for where this should be heading. Are there any particular sources you think are indispensable for an encyclopaedia article on Rochester Castle? I could start working from Allen Brown's guidebook, adding page references and more information if you think it's worthwhile. Nev1 (talk) 18:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My toes don't feel the least bit threatened. --ClemRutter (talk) 19:14, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  partial re write 

message: I thought this picture of the castle was a bit uninspiring so replaced it with this one. As there are actually a couple of decent images that could go at the top of the article I thought I'd ask for opinions here. Nev1 (talk) 22:16, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The castle is more than just the keep.Where's the river? The camera should have been kept straight. I don't like heavily post processed images. Is an image featuring imported stone paving sets and 21st century brickwork an improvement. It is a difficult subject.--ClemRutter (talk) 23:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The castle is quite close to the river, but I don't think there's a good photo on Wikipedia which really shows that . This one from flickr isn't free but shows how close it is. Maybe a photo could be taken from the modern bridge? I'm not sure if this would work as I've not been to Rochester myself. The picture on the front of the guidebook is of the keep, and it is the castle's most prominent feature, but I think for the lead a wider picture showing more of the castle would be preferable. A tight shot of the keep can be used later in the article when the architecture is discussed. Nev1 (talk) 23:55, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are ten shots from September- I just catted them into :commons:Category:Rochester you might like to change that.--ClemRutter (talk) 01:03, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead image

message: I added a line to the main article: "There is currently (2011) a campaign to restore the floors and roof of the keep." with a reference to the BBC News.  It was immediately deleted by ClemRutter.  Now as a newbie I'm clearly going to defer to a long standing editor, but perhaps an explanation on the talk page might be helpful?  That there have been campaigns in the past would not, a priori, make the the fact of a current campaign false. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:00, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: ClemRutter's got a fair point IMO as so far it's a campaign which hasn't yet had an effect on the castle (from the BBC story, although it may since). But I think the preferable way to deal with this is to explain what restoration work has been undertaken when, by whom, and how much it cost rather than focussing on the most recent. I don't want to put words in clemRutter's mouth, but from my point of view the problem wasn't that what you added was inaccurate, but that it placed emphasis on the most recent activity which may not have been approved yet. I think once it's been approved by English Heritage it should go in the article, but at the same time make it clear that it's not the only restoration work undertaken at Rochester. Nev1 (talk) 14:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I wan't trying to place any particular emphasis on the Keep project merely noting that the previous paragraph might not be the end of the story.  Perhaps there ought to be a general expansion of the "Later History" section, covering both the problems of dilapidation and the emergency work to rebuild the collapsed bailey wall last year.  See Restore Rochester Castle Campaign for the latest situation.  For that matter, the discovery in 2007 of the Roman city walls under the castle walls might be of interest in the appropriate paragraph. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:48, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: An expansion is precisely what the later history section needs. There's plenty of scope to do so, for example when and how did the castle come into the possession of English Heritage, on top of the points you suggest above. Months ago I offered to expand the castle after finding R Allen Brown's book on the castle, and promptly lost the damn thing otherwise I'd happily jump in here. As for the discovery of the Roman walls I think that belongs in the first paragraph of the history section as when it was discovered is of secondary importance to the fact it illumates the Roman history of the site. Nev1 (talk) 14:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I assumed "appropriate paragraph" clearly refered to the first paragraph of history.  EH took guardianship in 1965 according to the Restore Rochester Castle Campaign.  Good luck with the expansion if you find your book! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Restoration Campaign

message: There is a model of the castle kept in the keep.  This is the source of the photo on the http://www.carneycastle.com/Rochester/ website, "Model of the Castle".  The model and photo both show an internal curtain wall, the remains of which are apparently visible on the ground as a ridge running roughly East-West enclosing the keep and about 1/3 of the bailey.  This is mentioned nowhere in this article and is not visible on any plan.  did such a feature exist or was it just speculation based on walking the grounds? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:39, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is shown on the plan that is linked to the link you provided see genplan.jpg, but it only shows it extending for about 1/4 of the distance. The plan I have added to the article is based on an old encyclopaedia article and my well be missing features excavated more recently. If it can be mapped accurately it could be added to the plan I uploaded today.  -- PBS (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The article isn't yet complete, but I have not yet come across a mention of an inner wall dividing the enclosure in two. All I can say is it looks right, very similar to how Carlisle Castle is divided, but so far there's been no mention. I am basing the article primarily on the 1969 HMSO guide by Brown (republished by English Heritage in 1986), although I haven't properly addressed the architecture yet, augmented with other sources where appropriate. I made a digital copy of the book as I had to return it to the library, but didn't include the plan, so can't provide a definitive answer quickly but I don't remember seeing an inner curtain wall on the plan. Nev1 (talk) 17:52, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have found a modern plan to compare to the 19th-century encyclpoedia version. See page 5 of this PDF produced by a heritage consultancy company . It doesn't show an inner curtain wall (although that may be addressed later) but it does show some inconsistencies with the 19th-century plan that make me dubious as to the latter's worth. While the generalities are there, the out walls shouldn't be as dramatically curved as they're shown to be and the gatehouse into the city isn't still standing. I think the Penny Cyclopedia plan should be removed from the article, although a good free alternative would certainly be welcome. Nev1 (talk) 21:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Penny Cyclopedia map was drawn after the barbarian was demolished, hence the wording on the diagram. I do not think it should not be removed unless an alternative is available. The other big advantage of it is that it can be taken and developed further with addition and corrections which are not then subject to removal be the work is derived from a copyrighted plan. -- PBS (talk) 23:25, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Mystery of the partition wall solved: it was built in 1230/1 and was since pulled down. Nev1 (talk) 22:41, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Internal curtain wall 

message: I find the lighting of the current lead image very dark. Would you be happy for me to upload a slightly brighter version of the image that I have modified in Photoshop? My modified image is still slightly dull as the sun wasn't shining when the photo was taken. Aa77zz (talk) 14:32, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Give it a go. If it doesn't work we can always revert the image to an earlier version. Nev1 (talk) 14:47, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Better? According to the metadata the photo was taken at 7.37pm in May - perhaps to avoid any people. Aa77zz (talk) 15:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me, thanks for the change. Nev1 (talk) 16:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope. It has a heavy yellow colour cast (it always did- the photographer was attempting to use the sun shining beneath the cloud base)- and the horizon is on a slant of about 3degrees clockwise. Photos are not really a problem- tell me what you want and I can do a site visit- and if the sun is in the right place, and the bull terriers are not walking their owners--!! --ClemRutter (talk) 17:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I quite like the angle currently used as it includes the cathedral without it being one of the dominant features and there isn't something like it in the article so maybe something along similar lines? Nev1 (talk) 18:06, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I had added a few images to :commons:Category:Rochester Castle which will give you a little more choice --ClemRutter (talk) 00:26, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead image tweek 

message: I have put a request for help on the Dickens page, that directs here.--ClemRutter (talk) 08:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  /* Literature */  

message: What does this mean, "In the south Gundulf's wall survived into the modern period, although had since been dismantled"? Does it mean "although it has now been dismantled" ?Graham Colm (talk) 21:35, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The odd phrasing was because the sources weren't clear on when it was dismantled, and I wasn't entirely happy with it but I think your suggestion sorts that out. Nev1 (talk) 22:11, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd sentence 

message: In BrE accommodation meaning lodgings is a mass noun and therefore should not be used in the plural.  AmE is different.  See .  I'm therefore changing the various "accommodations" to the more normal BrE form. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:27, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Done except for one in "Later History" which the firewall is blocking.  Can someone fix it please? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Aha, so it's an matter of different uses in Brtain and America. I've changed the last one to "accomodation". I hadn't noticed the Cambridge Dictionary website said "accomodations" was American, but now see it has "accomodation" as the UK version. Nev1 (talk) 12:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the correction. - Dank (push to talk) 12:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  accommodation vs accommodations 

message: A brilliant article, well illustrated and fully deserving of Featured status. A significant achievement, congrats. Doug (talk) 13:28, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Congratulations on Featured

message: "The siege that followed was one of the largest in England up to that point." Large is not a good or useful word here. It's fairly meaningless, which is bad enough, but it also therefore comes across as peacock and OR-ish. I know the lead is supposed to summarise, but perhaps we can do better. --Dweller (talk) 09:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: PS really enjoying reading this. Can't wait to get to the pigs bit. That siege is one of my favourites. Up there with the up-the-toilet one at Krak. --Dweller (talk) 09:48, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've replaced "large" with a quote from the Barnwell chronicler which gets the point across. Did they go through the toilet at Krak too? I know they did at Château-Gaillard. Nev1 (talk) 10:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Lovely quote. You know, I'm pretty sure I've made that exact mistake before, and I can't understand how I can do that. There's also this late 16th century example: Siege of Godesberg --Dweller (talk) 10:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Large" siege 

message: Am I being picky, or is this slightly unencyclopedic language, inasmuch as castles cannot surrender, only the people inside can? --Dweller (talk) 10:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair point, so I've changed it to "Although the garrison did not surrender, the castle suffered extensive damage". Alternatively I could have used "Although the castle was not surrendered..." but the passive voice wasn't necessary here. Nev1 (talk) 10:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I know I'm a pedant. --Dweller (talk) 10:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the castle did not surrender" 

message: The lead says William gave the castle to Odo. The text says he probably did. That's a minor conflict that should be addressed. Incidentally, the latter claim is not sourced, and most of the section below it is sparsely sourced. --Dweller (talk) 16:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've clarified the situation in the lead. As for sourcing, the statement is sourced to Brown 1969, pages 6 to 8. The citation after the penultimate sentence of the second paragraph of the early history section covers everything before it. Nev1 (talk) 16:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who gave it to Odo? 

message: The sentence "Located along the River Medway and Watling Street, Rochester was a strategically important royal castle" seems to be an amalgam of two slightly different ideas that aren't quite combined properly. Rochester Castle was a strategically important royal castle due to being in Rochester, and Rochester was a strategically important location due to being located along the River Medway and Watling Street, but Rochester Castle itself isn't located "along" anything. danno_uk 19:14, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead 

message: According to a talk by David Starkey, the cathedral was used as the King's headquarters, not Boley Hill.  He made reference to "bivouacking soldiers" in the nave.  clearly a talk is not easily citable, does anyone have any references to clear this up? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:03, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  1215 siege 

message: Listed building status has not been included. Should it be? A useful map is found in the listing --ClemRutter (talk) 07:35, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's mentioned in both the lede and the main text. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:46, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed as soon as I had presssed save! Should however the deprecated Images of England references be replaced by the link above? ClemRutter (talk) 13:19, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Listed building

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In  we have seen a change in the default maps, and it leaves me to question how exactly do we wish for the map to assist. Is it to show the strategic relevance of the LBP of the Medway, or to assist the visitor navigate the Strood One-Way? When that has been decided and  has revised its default, I am happy to make the decided change. Also if we decide the  is required then it should be embedded.--ClemRutter (talk) 21:59, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infoboxes and maps 

message: A little confused by this passage in the first sentence: "The 12th-century keep or stone tower [...] is one of the best preserved in England or France." Why these two countries specifically? England is obvious, France not so much. Should it be changed to just "England"? If I'm missing something, feel free to let me know. :-) Gageills (talk) 22:48, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's Norman, there are Norman keeps in both England and France. Perhaps it should include Sicily as well, but that is another debate. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 06:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

text: Great, thanks. Gageills (talk) 17:49, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "England or France" 

message: Somehow this article was chosen as "one of the best on Wikipedia" back in 2012. It certainly isn't now, although nothing much seems to have been done with it in the interim. I see that, during the initial discussion, some people picked up on the verbosity, the highly academic/formal tone, and the excessive amount of background detail. I have no objection to useful detail, but we don't need to know that "Castles were introduced to England by the Normans in the 11th century" - which isn't even true - and we can really do without awful sentences like "The 19th century saw efforts to preserve the castle." Deb (talk) 15:28, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting point, when does a fortification become a castle? Are there examples of the term being used in England before the Normans arrived? I do, of course, exclude the anachronistic naming of iron age hill forts as castles, such as Cadbury Castle, Somerset. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 15:39, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. The term couldn't be used in English until English existed, which realistically wasn't until the 12th century. Henry V was the first king to use English extensively for official purposes, in the early 15th century. Before that, texts that might have referred to castles were mostly written in Latin. In Welsh, the word "castell" has clearly been carried straight through from the Latin, which suggests it was being used for all kinds of fortifications. To me, it's not a case of a fortification "becoming" a castle, it's a case of how the locals referred to their style of building fortifications. The Normans would have used their own word for the concept of a castle as we know it now, hence that habit of saying that castles only existed after the Normans arrived in Britain. I think any such discussion belongs in the general article on castles, not in this particular article. Deb (talk) 08:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the big inovation of the Normans was the introduction of specific fortified structures as a means of control of the local area, up till then, with the partial exception of the the Romans, fortified structures werer purely defensive in intent. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 08:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time for a review 

message: Ermmmmmmmm
Obv 113 feet(34m) 2A02:C7C:6174:900:B005:C21D:D34F:D0C0 (talk) 18:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  How big is it