Talk:Criticism of Islam/Archive 3

message: Many verses in the Qur'an can be read as supporting warfare against unbelievers.    
:"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!" 
:"How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrong-doers." 
:"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.'" 
:"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly." 
:"Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell," 
:"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
:"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." 
:"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!"  
:"And the True Promise draweth nigh; then behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve! (They say): Alas for us! We (lived) in forgetfulness of this. Ah, but we were wrong-doers!"  
:"He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse."
:"On the Day when (some) faces will be whitened and (some) faces will be blackened; and as for those whose faces have been blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (profession of) belief ? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved." 
:"Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise."  
:"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do."  
:"O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence." 
:"Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings." 
:"Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!"   
:"These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted;And for them are hooked rods of iron.Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning." 
84.146.218.102 21:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Islam and unbelievers

message: Some non-Muslim critics, in explaining the beliefs of these scholars, say that their conscience pushes them away from the alleged instructions of God as revealed in the Qur’an.  However, these Muslim scholars believe that their understanding is properly based on Qur'anic verses and Hadiths. 
Islamic scholars claim that there are several verses of the Qur'an and several quotes attributed to Muhammad (Hadith) that bide believers to act kindly towards women and not to beat them .  However, many critics of Islam believe that this Qur'anic verse is responsible for poor treatment of some Muslim women in Islamic countries and even in Western immigrant populations. They also claim that "the command to beat disobedient wives" that they believe to exist within the Qur'an "is founded upon a woman’s subservient / secondary status in Islam." Wife Beating in Islam, by Silas (pseudonym), Answering Islam, August 25, 2001, retrieved April 16, 2006
--Aminz 23:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: Lets have this section in the talk page until the entire section is properly referenced. Merzbow you can add it once you are finished with your research. Thanks. 
Islam has come under criticism for permitting slavery, a practice that was a common feature of pre-Islamic pagan Arabia.   
The Qur’an explicitly allows and regulates slavery. Muhammad is documented as having kept many slaves. Qur'anic regulation made prisoners of war the source of slaves. Prisoners of war included not only captured enemy soldiers but also captured civilians.  For instance, it allows Muslims to take civilian women of enemy tribes or nations as slaves , and furthermore to consider any marriage bond dissolved by their enslavement. 
While the Qur’an encourages the liberation of slaves under certain circumstances, it does not require it except as expiation for certain sins. Both the Qur'an and hadith enjoin kindness to slaves (). The Qur'an in general commands uncompromised justice (), enjoins restraining anger and the pardoning of men (). According to the Qur'an, amends for serious crimes could be made in part by freeing a slave (). According to the hadiths, the emancipation of a slave is a recommended act that would gain the person freeing the slave some measure of forgiveness for past sins. The Qur'an encourages Muslims to give slaves the opportunity to buy (back) their freedom if they so demand (). The former text also allows marriage between a master and their slave, if the latter is considered to be religiously pious in nature (). Slaves could also earn their freedom by teaching 10 illiterate Muslims how to read and write. 
Slaves were not considered inferiors to their masters in theological terms. There is a hadith which claims that Muhammad said: Your slaves are your brothers and God has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them (Bukhari ). Masters were commanded to address their slaves by "My young man" or "My young woman" rather than "My slave" or "My slave-woman" and slaves were commanded to address their masters by "My master" or "My mistress" rather than "My lord" (Abu-Dawud ). Muslims argue that the concept of equality of all men is expressed in the Qur'an . 
The Qur’an permits sexual intercourse with female slaves. Critics of Islam argue that the Qur'anic text, in verses , actually permits the rape of female slaves. Verses  state that: The believers … who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or whom their right hands possess ... are free from blame. Verses  repeat the same idea. "Those whom their right hands possess" has always been understood to refer to slaves and captives. Some critics of traditional Islamic scholars claim that “they also approved that every male master had the right to force any of his female slaves to have sex with him.” Spencer, Robert. Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West., pgs 299–300 According to some critics, Qur'anic ambiguity on such a matter is itself evidence of human origins for the Qur’an. It is claimed by them that if these verses are not considered to justify rape of slaves, they still appear to justify having sex with slaves. 
On the other hand, the following verse seems to contradict at least one of the former viewpoints: Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful (). However, some critics interpret this verse as a condemnation solely of slave-owners who forced their slaves into prostitution for profit. In addition, they point out that it promises forgiveness for Muslims who do it. 
See Religion and slavery for more information about slavery in Islam.
:
 «₪Mÿš†íc₪»  (T) 05:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to press the issue, if only because I have time to work on this tomorrow. This actually shouldn't be that hard to fix since the other article can be mined for the proper sources to the standard Muslim responses; a bit more detail is needed on the criticism, but sources for that are readily available. - Merzbow 06:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll finish this section tomorrow. I'm using only good, published sources on this; I'm even going to the library tomorrow to verify some pages numbers in one of Maududi's commentaries. Merzbow 04:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Wonderful! --Aminz 04:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slavery 

message: I think "Noted Islamic scholar William Montgomery Watt " is better to be changed to "William Montgomery Watt". He is a noted scholar, but it is not common to provide such backgrounds, I think. --Aminz 05:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Merzbow 21:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noted Islamic scholar 

message: The section is badly written. "The obvious response from Muslims would be.."? An encyclopedia doesn't attempt to predict a response. Also, the Bible is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an. Muslims believe that a piece of scripture (Injil) was revealed to Jesus, as the Torah was to Moses. Muslims do NOT hold St. Peter or Paul or the unknown authors of the other books as having any religious authority. His Excellency... 19:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that section needs to be re-written. --Aminz 19:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism from the Biblical point of view

message: I have a question in general. How can we prove that "Islam" says something? 
I would like to somehow prove that according to Islam "slaves were not considered inferior to their masters in theological terms."
There is a wealth of material on this (here is a few):
049.013
YUSUFALI: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). 
some Quotes attributed:
People from the time of Adam onwards are as equal as the teeth of a comb. Arabs are not superior to non Arabs, nor are Redskinned people better than Blacks. No superiority or virture exists except in terms of Piety. 
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: None of you must say: "My slave" (abdi) and "My slave-woman" (amati), and a slave must not say: "My lord" (rabbi or rabbati). The master (of a slave) should say: "My young man" (fataya) and "My young woman" (fatati), and a slave should say "My master" (sayyidi) and "My mistress" (sayyidati), for you are all (Allah's slave and the Lord is Allah, Most High.
Any feedback? --Aminz 00:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we can't prove it, all we can do is say that this is a certain POV and give the most notable arguments that have been made supporting this POV. I think the Bukhari hadith the article is quoting now is good support. That latter quote you list looks like a hadith also, if you can find a source that mentions that hadith then it could be quoted in the article. I don't think 049.013 is as useful as the other quotes since it doesn't explicitly mention slaves. In the end, I think we should be careful to only quote verses and hadiths if we can also cite a commentator who says that this particular verse or hadith is relevant to the subject (like Qutb). - Merzbow 01:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I used the latter hadith in the rewrite of the Muhammad 'Slaves' section, it fits in well there. Thanks for pointing me to it. - Merzbow 04:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. I may apply some minor edits later. --Aminz 05:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. It's actually pretty fun doing this research. The one thing I'm having a hard time with is finding decent commentaries on the hadith. For the Quran, I have Yusuf Ali and now Maududi (among others). Do you know of a good source of scholarly hadith commentary? - Merzbow 06:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You can get access to Yusuf Ali's commentary via the Amazon 'view inside this book' feature. Maududi not online, the only way I can read his stuff is at the local library. I think I'll go to one of the Islamic message boards and ask.- Merzbow 17:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "some" , "all" question 

message: "However, others imply or outright state that Muhammad was justified in his actions (or at least not at fault by the standards of that time) because the Qurayza Jews had, in fact, been negotiating with the Muslims' enemies.John L. Esposito, Islam: The Straight Path, p. 15, 1998, Oxford University Press, " 
Merzbow, this seems to me to be inconsistent with Ibn Ishaq (the following either taken from Banu Qurayza) :
"In 627, the army of Mecca attacked Medina under the command of Abu Sufyan. Abu Sufyan asked the Banu Qurayza tribe to help them conquer Medina, by attacking the Muslims from behind the lines or letting them into the town. 
According to one early historian, Ibn Ishaq, the Banu Qurayza chief, Ka'b, was initially reluctant, but eventually decided to support the Meccans, being so persuaded by Huyayy ibn Akhtab, chief of the Banu al-Nadir. " 
Ibn Ishaq says that before the war, Ibn Mu'adh had amiable relations with the Banu Qurayza. But it seems his sentiments had changed. He believed that the Banu Qurayza were wrong to break their agreement with the Muslims. When the arrow hit him, according to Ibn Ishaq, he had said "O God, seeing that you have appointed war between us and them grant me martyrdom and do not let me die until I have seen my desire upon the Banu Qurayza."
--Aminz 02:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The source for the sentence where I say 'negotiated' is John Esposito, Islam: The Straight Path, p. 15; he specifically says that the Banu Qurayza were neutral but also were negotiating with Muhammad's enemies. - Merzbow 03:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, How is to mention both quotes from Ibn Ishaq and John Esposito? --Aminz 03:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  I worked on the section again, adding the extra info from Ishaq. However, I didn't want the discussion of this incident to grow too large, so I took out the quote from the Bukhari hadith and simply referenced the hadith instead. I think it's pretty fair now; if the reader wants extra details he can follow the links. - Merzbow 06:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks. My POV is that Banu Qurayza didn't really "fight"; maybe the throw some arrows; but did not engaged in real war. So, I think using the term 'negotiated' should be appropriate (we can not say fought of course). I am happy with the current version. --Aminz 08:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violence 

message: --Greasysteve13 09:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Criticism of Judaism]] 

message: Merzbow, can we please remove the following: "Daniel Pipes has said that in order for Islam to modernize, there must be "no more death sentences for blasphemy or apostasy."" 
It is true but it will only cause negative reactions among Muslims. Had he said "in order for Islam to more merciful, there must be "no more death sentences for blasphemy or apostasy.", it would have a caused positive reaction. Our aim is to persuade Muslims to not to prescribe death punishment for apostasy (based on the arguments of minority from Qur'an) , isn't it? So, can we please remove it. --Aminz 06:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'll replace the Pipes quote, there must be something more constructive out there I can use instead. - Merzbow 17:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, the Lewis quote is meant as a summary of the subject; in one paragraph there isn't space to list the various exceptions and disagreements. I think it's an accurate description of the root reasons why so many Muslim clerics still advocate the death penalty for blasphemy/apostasy (and personally I've heard this very reason used in defense of the death penalty when talking with Muslims on message boards, for example). Islam is still an all-encompassing way of life in most Muslim countries to a much greater degree than, say, Christianity is a way of life in the US or Europe. But I'll add some context around the quote to make it clear that it is just a summary. - Merzbow 17:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A request 

message: Moved to here:
==== Zaynab bint-Jahsh ====
Muhammad has been criticized for marrying Zaynab bint-Jahsh, the divorced wife of his adopted son.  Watt however holds that Muhammad didn't marry Zaynab for sexual desire but his marriage was mainly a "political act in which an undesirable practice of 'adoption' belonging to a lower moral level was ended".
I may break up one part into a new article. --Merzbow 02:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The article is not expandable anymore (it is close to 100K) 

message: Muhammad has been criticized for marrying Zaynab bint-Jahsh, the divorced wife of his adopted son.  Watt however holds that Muhammad didn't marry Zaynab for sexual desire but his marriage was mainly a "political act in which an undesirable practice of 'adoption' belonging to a lower moral level was ended".
I may break up one part into a new article. --Merzbow 02:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zaynab bint-Jahsh 

message: Aminz, I restored the split sections for now. I think those are the wrong sections to split off, and also it's not a good idea to split them off without providing any summary of the sections at all in the main article (most people aren't going to follow a subarticle link without at least a summary of what's there).
I think if we want to reduce article size now we should move the 'responses' section out for the moment, because the material in there is going to be incorporated stage-by-stage into the main sections anyways in the near-term future. In fact, most of what's left in it is the Muhammad stuff which should be incorporated completely by the beginning of next week. Then we can talk about what sub-articles we want to create and how. - Merzbow 02:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only reason that I splitted sections was that I wasn't able to add something to the article. I wasn't able to add it when I reduced the size either, so the problem was supposedly something else which I still don't know. The reason I started with the first topics was that they seemed to be stable. But I am not in a hurry for breaking up the article at all. --Aminz 02:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think there is a technical limit on article size... perhaps it was a temporary issue. - Merzbow 03:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  Here is a list of very long pages, some > 300KB, so 100KB definitely isn't a hard limit: Special:Longpages. - Merzbow 03:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, it was a temporary issue. Thanks for your recent edits. --Aminz 08:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: Merzbow, do you think the blockquote from Maududi is a good argument: (I mean the following: )
"One may say that there is nothing peculiar about his Message. It is the product of his own mind. If it is so, then he should have proclaimed himself as God... But lo! His assertion is just to the contrary. For he proclaimed that: I am a human being like yourselves. I have not brought any thing to you of my own accord. It has all revealed to me by God. Whatever I possess belongs to Him... A liar and a hypocrite generally tries to ascribe to himself all the credit for the deeds of others also, even when the falsehood of his statement can be easily proved. But this great man does not appropriate the credit of any of these achievements to his own person even when none could contradict him, as there was no method of finding out the source of his inspiration."
I thought it is kind of fool and can be easily refuted. What do you think? --Aminz 09:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're probably right... I think Maududi's stronger argument is his comparison of the Muhammad before his 40th birthday with the transformed Muhammad afterward. I'll rework the Maududi section to focus on that. - Merzbow 16:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maududi's quote 

message: Does this small section really belong in the article... I don't see a criticism here being responded to. - Merzbow 02:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not as it stands, but it would be good to mention that some traditions authentic to Sunni Muslims are not authentic to Shias. + For Shia Muslims, the sources are vaster; there are twelve Imams whose words to them are as authentic as the Hadiths of prophet. Thus, "new criticisms" or "answers to the criticisms already mentioned in the article" may come from their extra sources. Shia Muslims may also dismiss parts of Sahih bukhari, etc (e.g. I *guess* if the chain of narration includes "Abu-Hurayra", the Hadith will become weak in their eyes) . Thus some criticisms may simply go away, while other criticisms come. To Qur'an alone Muslims, many traditions simply go away. --Aminz 08:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. How about this - we can rename the 'hadith' section to 'hadith and other traditions'. We can discuss criticism of the hadith in general by scholars; disagreements between Sunni and Shi'a about which hadith should be considered valid; and I assume there's criticism from Sunnis about the fact that Shi'a also reverence the words of the twelve Imams? - Merzbow 17:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Divisions of Islam 

message: Also regarding the 'Hadith' section - I'm not sure this belongs in the article. Sure, there is disagreement about how reliable hadith are, but this isn't a criticism of Islam per se, it's just an argument between scholars about the reliability of some sources. I don't want to throw away this information though, it's well-researched - can I merge it into the main hadith article? - Merzbow 02:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with including this section. We may also want to mention the Qur'an alone Muslims as well. --Aminz 07:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with both of you, as it is important to show the varience of these views of the value/legal weight of specific hadith, or there relivence at all.Hypnosadist 18:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hadith 

message: Your RFC request was a few days ago, so I don't know if you feel that you have resolved this matter already.  If so, please disregard the rest of what I have to say.
#The best solution is to include the various criticisms into the prose of the relevant main articles.  Criticism of Muhammad into the article on him, criticism of the Qur'an into the article on it, criticism of Islam as a whole into the article on it.  In this situation, this article would either not exist or discuss the phenomenon of criticizing Islam as an activity.  For Judaism, there are relevant articles on the phenomenon of criticizing Judiasm, such as anti-Semitism.  I don't know of any such articles for criticizing Islam, so for the remainder of my comment I'll assume there isn't any.
#:To implement this solution, first add the relevant criticism to the relevant articles.  When it can be shown that the criticism is there and fairly stable in content, switch what is here to a pointer to the relevant place in those articles.  When this article is down to nothing but such pointers, it can go away.
#:If that solution is attempted and fails because too much criticism is rejected from one or more of the relevant main articles, that is an indication that the relevant main article is failing the NPOV policy.  Two wrongs do not make a right, but Wikipedia is better if it as a whole is NPOV than if only one of the biases is represented.  So until the relevant main article achieves NPOV the material inappropriately rejected from it, Wikipedia as a whole is better off with the rejected material remaining here than vanishing totally.
#:I emphasized two phrases in the prior paragraph: too much and inappropriately.  In each case the point of emphasis is the same.  There are tests in policy for what criticism to exclude.  The first test is criticism that is so far fringe that it is hard to establish a significant critic holding the view.  The second test is that criticism and praise can't be introduced by original research, even using weasel words like "some believe" - they need to go in in a form that is verifiable from reliable sources, and best form is to bring them in as quotes.  This article is in better shape than most in citing sources, so it should be easy to bring the criticism from it into other articles as sourced material.
#A second solution is to leave this article standing on its own.  This, unfortunately, is a tacit recognition the the editors don't believe that the other articles are NPOV, and thus stands as a condemnation of those articles.  This is why this is an inferior solution.
#:In this situation, the criticism should lead each section.  Avoid use of disagreeing wording that looks like a record of a discussion, make it more educational in tone.  Strive to make this article so good that its introduction would deserve to be a paragraph in the Islam article with a "main article:" link.  Strive to make each section so good that the section's intro would deserve to be a pargraph in the relevant other articles with a "see also:" link.
I hope this helps.  GRBerry 19:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're starting from a flawed assumption here. You say that leaving this article on its own is a "tacit recognition that the editors don't believe that the other articles are NPOV". You're making the common mistake of assuming that an article about Criticism of X is inherently POV. That's not true if it correctly balances criticism and response in an NPOV manner, like this article strives to do. Having a Criticism of X article is qualitatively no different than splitting out a sub-article from a main article on any other aspect of the subject X. In other words, a Criticism of X article is really a Discussion of Criticism of X, just like a Muhammad's warfare article is simply a Discussion of Muhammad's warfare, which would have been split off the main Muhammad article due to space constraints. - Merzbow 22:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I responded to an RFC request for help at Talk Islam a few weeks back and have been watching that article.  That situation seems to have stabilized, thankfully.  But I am well aware that this is not a split out of a sub-article from that article.  That article has lots of sub-articles, as well it should.  This is instead, merely one of twelve "see also"s at the bottom.  If it were included as a sub-article in Islam the way you suggest it ought to be, I might have a different starting assumption.  GRBerry 00:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I never said it was a split-out from Islam; this article and Islam were here years before I came to Wikipedia. I'm saying that logically, it could have been, and in fact, it's probably a good idea to add a small section to Islam that summarizes this article and then links to it, in the same way that Islam summarizes Islam's denominations in a short section and links to Divisions of Islam. My overall point is that a "discussion of criticism" article is not qualitatively different than any other article. I'm not sure if you dispute this claim or not. If not, it seems your objections are wholly organizational. Certainly incorporating criticism into a main article and its children is a valid way to go, but I believe that keeping the criticism in separate articles and subarticles, and linking from the main articles to the criticism articles and/or sections is valid also. (We are planning on splitting out the Muhammad and Qur'an criticism sections into their own subarticles soon because this one has grown to large). Given that both paths are valid, I don't see how the massive disruption to dozens of articles that would be entailed by dismembering and redistributing the contents of this one is justified. - Merzbow 01:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be disruptive - I believe it would also make those articles better.  Most of the Islamic articles I've visited have one or more clean-up tags at the top.  Those of us who respond to RFCs are just another editor, so our comments are free to be ignored.  Unfortunately, the Religion and Philosophy category doesn't have many regular commentators.  As you split out articles, I'd suggest that you build the web by also making them sub articles of the relevant page.  Ie, make the forthcoming "Criticism of Muhammad" a sub-article of "Muhammad" as well as a sub-article of this one.  (Heck, possibly even instead of, given that Islam doesn't even have Muhammad as a sub-article.)  GRBerry 02:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly. The mainline Islam articles do need lots of work, mostly good sourcing. Anyways, thanks for your comments, more eyes are always appreciated. - Merzbow 05:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, we can't practically include all these criticisms into the main articles and this article on its own, I believe, merits existing. But, as much as there are criticisms of Islam around, they are apologists as well. The problem with this article is that one can not raise the topics that are interesting for apologists. Moreover, critic’s arguments go first. Now if we want to have small sections in the original articles about the criticisms that would be really unfair. --Aminz 06:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC Response 

message: Merzbow, The article on Watt says:
:I therefore do not believe that either the Bible or the Qur’an is infallibly true in the sense that all their commands are valid for all time. ... when the form of society changes in important respects some commands cease to be appropriate, though many others continue to be valid. I do, however, believe that Muhammad, like the earlier prophets, had genuine religious experiences. I believe that he really did receive something directly from God. As such, I believe that the Qur’an came from God, that it is Divinely inspired. Muhammad could not have caused the great upsurge in religion that he did without God’s blessing. 
:Thus, whether Muhammad incited his followers to action and then used their wrongs [wrongs committed against them] to justify it, or whether he yielded to pressure from them to allow such action, the normal Arab practice of the razzia was taken over by the Islamic community. In being taken over, however, it was transformed. It became an activity of believers against unbelievers, and therefore took place within a religious context. The Emigrants were described as "striving with goods and person in the way of God [Qur'an 4:95, 9:20, 9:41, 9:44]. They were promoting one of the purposes of the Islamic community in trying to establish a region in which God was truly worshipped.
:(Montgomery Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, London, Oxford University Press, 1961, p. 108).
--Aminz 01:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh, I must have read that passage at some point, dunno why I forgot it. I will change it back. - Merzbow 01:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Ouch, it looks like I got hit by that Firefox/Google toolbar bug that sometimes cuts the ends off of long articles in tabs in edit fields. Thanks for restoring it. - Merzbow 02:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem Merzbow --Aminz 02:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Watt believe Muhammad recieved revelation from God 

message: I just noticed the presuppositions buried in this answer to me from Aminz. No i'm not jewish by either genetics or conversion, but i have studied the kabbalah along with most of the faiths on this ball of dirt and water. I do not consider being called a jew insulting but i suggest you look at this thought in your head; critism of islam=being a jew.Hypnosadist 09:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry. Since you were editing Dhimmi article(and everybody there except Timothy was either Jewish or Muslim), I thought you are a Jewish. I have had very constructive joyful discussions with Yid613 who is a Jewish on this article. I just guessed you may be a Jewish. --Aminz 09:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think your own criticism BTW goes with your "wiki-jihadist" idea, doesn't it? --Aminz 10:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Many muslim editors such as yourself can and do edit well and with as little POV as humanly possible, others believe there should be little or no critisim of islam(as opposed to other ideas) on wikipedia and the muslim views of islam and relivent topics should come first. These people are the "wiki-jihadists" who assert islams domainence and perfection, and they are waging jihad(struggle) to covert and you know that in your heart Aminz. Yes i am biased and have double standards.Hypnosadist 11:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your kind words about me and some Muslim editors. I see your point. --Aminz 04:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hypnosadist, if you are indeed sincere you should become a vegetarian (i.e. because of animal rights, but this is against the Jewish law, isn't it?). Who says it is less cruel than slavery?

message: Thanks very much for your post Phippi46. Just a few points: 1. Can you please add the pages of the books of which the quote is extracted. 2. Some of your arguments(e.g. marriage one) are better to different sections. This section only tries to answer to the question: "Did Muhammad believe he was a prophet, or did he consider himself a fraud?". We have another section for marriage I believe. 3. I know you have tried hard to find those quotes but as they are lengthy, it is probable that we may lose our readers. I'm not sure they will read the whole thing. I think they are better to be summarized. Thanks again,--Aminz 01:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I forgot to say, the people we are supposed to quote in "Muslim arguments" section should be Muslims. I don't think they were all Muslims. --Aminz 01:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits by Phippi 

message: It seems the whole "History of criticism of Islam" section is lacking specifics, especially the Maimonides paragraph.  It would be nice if it was mentioned what specifically these historical figures disliked about Islam, at least a few examples should be there.--- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by  152.163.100.67 (talk • contribs)  2006-06-27 00:16:20   (UTC)
:If we went into specifics for every person name-checked in that section, that section would be an article (which I don't think is justified currently, unless somebody is masochistic enough to spent 12 hours creating and referencing and summarizing it). - Merzbow 07:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur! --Aminz 07:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarify Maimonides 

message: The sources I know so far:
* Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08692a.htm ), or here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur%27an#Textual_Evidence 
* Bernard Lewis (1984), p. 68-69
* Jewish Encyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=363&letter=K&search=Koran#1113
Any further sources? --Aminz 10:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Merzbow! --Aminz 08:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Origin and development of the Qur'an]] section 

message: Does anyone still think the article deserves the NPOV tag? We've done a lot of cleanup in the past few weeks. There are still some sections to clean up, but I think we're pretty balanced now. Anyone see any areas where either the criticisms or the responses are being given undue weight? - Merzbow 03:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the article as a whole is POV. We can add the POV tag to sections if it is necessary. the article doesn't even touch modern atheism criticism of Islam (religion in general) --Aminz 08:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't think that's an issue of POV, more an issue of new material. The question should be is the existing material NPOV or not. - Merzbow 19:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still NPOV? 

message: Merzbow, would you please let me know why you remove the following from the article:
"The Qur'an  orders the severing of hands (interpreted as the four fingers of the right hand in shiasm ) of thieves.  Tafsir Nemooneh, Grand Ayatollah Makarim Shirazi, on verse 5:38  Several conditions are required for the punishment to be applied. In shiasm, for example, the penalty will be applied only if the thief is adult, sane, has stolen intentionally, unmistakably and stealthily from a "safe" place (i.e. somewhere which is locked or someplace similar), has not been forced to do so either by someone or out of misery, also does not repent before the crime is proved, and some other conditions.  on capital punishments, from the official website of Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani,  . The stoning of married adulterers is mandatory in five Shari'ah schools (For example, Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani, a shia jurist, prescribes stoning penalty for a sane, adult, free and married adulterer who have had access to his mate at the time of adultery)  on capital punishments, from the official website of Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani Stoning: Does It Have Any Basis in Shari`ah?, IslamOnline.net, March 31, 2005, retrieved April 16, 2006 and is practiced in countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and local Shari'ah courts in northern Nigeria. The penalty is imposed on the sane married adulterers only when proof is established. The adultery is proved either when "four reliable and pious men testify that they witnessed the act and actually saw the male sexual organ inserted into the vagina", or if one bears witness against his or her own self four times, or if there is a pregnancy.  Official website of Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani, on capital punishments   Afghan Police Probe Woman Stoning Over Adultery, Islamonline.net . Yusuf Al-Qaradawi states that "In Islam, we are instructed to keep our sins secret and to seek repentance for them. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said, “Anyone who commits a punishable sin should cover himself up as long as he’s being shielded by Allah (i.e. he should not expose himself) because if he divulges his punishable sin, the prescribed punishment becomes due.” (i.e. it should be carried out as he has confessed)..."  Homosexuality in a Changing World: Are We Being Misinformed?, Islamonline.net  ... A’isha narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said: ‘Ward off punishment as much as you can. If you find any way out for a Muslim then set him free. If the Imam makes a mistake in granting forgiveness, it is better for him than that he should commit a mistake in imposing punishment.’ Thus, any doubt about the evidence should prevent the punishment."  Afghan Police Probe Woman Stoning Over Adultery, Islamonline.net 
As a shia, I tried to dig up what they say and added them to the article. The view of shia scholars is no less than that of the sunni scholar such as Yusuf Ali or Maududi. Thanks --Aminz 08:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wanted to keep the Shi'a references, but the links were in Persian so I was skeptical of doing so... however I trust your translation so I'll put them back in, they don't sound controversial to me. - Merzbow 19:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

text: OK I restored the Shi'a info (with some minor editing). Just two requests... can you add some additional info to the 'Tafsir Nemooneh' reference, like page numbers, date of publication, publishing house, etc.? It looks like a Persian book so it won't have an ISBN, but it should have the other stuff. Also there is a reference to a website 'www.maarefislam.com' - can you add the full name of the website as the value of the 'work' attribute in the cite, and the name of the specific section as the 'title'? Thanks. - Merzbow 19:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm confused about the last sentence in the adultery paragraph now. First, I'm feeling uneasy about the source you quote for Al-Qaradawi on the adultery punishment - this article . I know it's his website, but this article looks more like a news item, and doesn't mention his name at all - is it fair to ascribe these views to him? And this passage - "(e.g. it is not enough for example if the witnesses only see the man and woman sleeping nude together and they hear some sounds)" seems like too much detail and doesn't seem to be in the source - I think the reader should be able to assume it from "actually saw the male sexual organ inserted into the vagina". Second, you also have the Shi'a website reference for this same sentence - are you saying the Shi'a view on this is exactly the same as Al-Qaradawi's, or is the difference in the Shi'a view addressed in the "according to some scholars" clause? - Merzbow 08:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Merzbow, I'll remove my editorial comment "(e.g. it is not enough for example if the witnesses only see the man and woman sleeping nude together and they hear some sounds)".But it is really so. In reality, it is almost impossible to prove adultery unless it is committed in public. That's all I wanted to say there. I *think* most scholars consider all three proofs valid (e.g. the shia jurist I've included). The shia scholar just says his own opinion (i.e. it does not talk about other views). The shia scholar also is silent as to what happens if one bears witness against his or her own self BUT goes back on it. That source also just says "observing adultery" and doesn't say "actually saw the male sexual organ inserted into the vagina" but according to the teachings I've got as a shia, "observing adultery" means the same thing. I'll try to find a better source to replace it by the Al-Qaradawi's website. --Aminz 08:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Merzbow, please have a look at this http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6175172 section "Zina and rape". It says:" Before moving on to the whole Islamic perspective it is important to point out that the punishment for adultery and fornication is not due to breaking the right of God (i.e. an article of faith) but rather the punishment is for breaking the public's right. The Islamic community is very strict on its moral frame work and so if two people commit adultery in secret, they have broken one of God's laws but when it becomes public knowledge they have broken God's laws and the rights of the moral community. It is for the act becoming public knowledge that they are being punished, either through witnesses or self confession. In either case they will have to face God with what they have done on the day of the resurrection." I'll use this article to fill in the gaps. --Aminz 09:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  Ooops, it says "Most of the content on h2g2 is created by h2g2's Researchers, who are members of the public. The views expressed are theirs and unless specifically stated are not those of the BBC." I need to find another source. --Aminz 09:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  This website even though not reliable casts doubts upon the "pregnancy outside of marriage" evidence. --Aminz 09:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember this case from Nigeria http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2202111.stm and the fact pregnancy can be used as evidence is often quoted as an example of sexism in Sharia by femanists.Hypnosadist 10:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I found this article directly attributed to Qaradawi that mentions the punishment for adultery: . I'll replace the news article link with this and adjust the detail slightly to reflect what it's saying. - Merzbow 20:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is interesting that pregnancy can serve as a proof if the woman is unmarried BUT the death penalty does not apply to unmarried women, only to married women. Ha ha --Aminz 23:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, all the conditions around the law are confusing. I'm thankful at least that in practice it's imposed very rarely. The Tanakh has similar types of severe punishments; I wonder how the Jews argue that they shouldn't be still applied. Christians, of course, have it easy - they just say that Jesus abrogated all the old OT laws (when in fact he said otherwise, but that's an argument for another time, heh).- Merzbow 00:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hey, Merzbow, the sex problem is really solved religously (not culturally) in Shiasm. Have a look at temporary marriage! Islam, and particularly shiasm, is the best religion from the sex point of view ;) But that's only the religion. The culture strongly opposes to these ideas :(. Anyways, as far as I know, Jews stopped applying these laws after the fall of the second temple. --Aminz 00:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Severe punishments 

message: I need to run now. But let's discuss the recent edits. --Aminz 22:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm now partial to nuking the whole 'Criticism of critics' section since the article is not about the critics, it's about the criticism. Said is relevant since he's not quoted as singling out particular critics for personal attack, but instead he's criticizing an approach. Plus the three sources being used are extremely poor-quality (the CAIR page is simply a collections of excerpts from book reviews, the other two are by nobodies writing for minor web magazines). At most I can see summarizing all this in two sentences, there's no way these crappy sources should get more space than Said. We can't set a precedent for quoting paragraphs of personal attacks against people written by any yahoo with a web page. - Merzbow 22:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is a ridiculous justification for 'nuking' the section. By the same logic, criticism of Muhammad should be excluded since the article is on "Islam" and not "Muhammad". The title of the article is "Criticism of Islam". Those who voice these criticisms HAVE been reviewed by sources critical of them, and those criticisms should be available here. Many of the critics here have reasons other than mere objective scholarship. Pipes is a political figure, and has been vocal in his neoconservative focus on the strategic interests of israel. Bat Ye'or has been labelled a polemicist by almost every objective reviewer of her work. The context in which these individuals issue their criticisms is relevant to "Criticisms of Islam", particularly in the section dealing with modern criticism of Islam.  If readers are to be given a reservoir of criticisms of a religion, made elaborate to expose every criticism no matter how unpopular or unfounded in fact, they also have a right to see reviews of the context in which such criticisms is made. "Criticism of Critics" would provide the reader with knowlege regarding the environment in which such criticism is produced. His Excellency... 23:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  First, your sources are not notable. Two nobodies writing for innocuous web zines and a page of excerpts from book reviews with no original content. Anybody can put up a web page attacking someone. Second, "troubling bigotry" and "intellectually dishonest" are not criticisms of the context. Said discussing Orientalism is a criticism of the context. "Troubling bigotry" and "intellectually dishonest" are attacks against a specific individual. This article is about criticism of Islam and responses to that criticism, not about critics of Islam and attacks on those critics. You want to create Critics of Islam, go ahead. - Merzbow 23:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  First, how notable is Mr. Kevin Knight ("New Advent"), who gets used as a reference 11 times? Second, the credibility and professional responsibility of the critics referenced in this article is certainly relevant. Raphael1 18:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps, but you're gonna have to find better sources for that than irrelevant webzines. - Merzbow 18:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  By what standards to you call something relevant? www.islamic-awareness.org, www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com and www.peacewithrealism.org all have lower Alexa rankings than said webzines, but still get used as references. Raphael1 19:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: We're trying to phase out references like that as the article is being revised. We don't need to introduce more. - Merzbow 19:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me make a proposal: I put that critique on the critics back in and I will remove it again, when you have phased out all less relevant references from the article. Raphael1 22:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: This article looks quite thorough except that it doesn't include the Muslim atrocities against the Sassanians and trampling upon all human rights.  I request that an expert add a section to this article on the butchering of the Zoroastrians who did not submit to Islam.  I myself don't know enough to contribute .--Patchouli 09:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the article focuses on Islam specifically, it would have to be in a section like the 'Quran violence' section, and the violence would have to be specifically attributed to some aspect of Islam by a notable critic. - Merzbow 16:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Here is a good article:http://www.iranchamber.com/history/islamic_conquest/islamic_conquest.php  --02:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Butchering the Persians in 600s CE 

message: How comes, that the almost 100 years old Catholic Encyclopedia is one of the primary sources of this article? By using that colonialistic source 11 times in the article, we are not publishing modern critizism but are rather engaging in Said's Orientalism. Raphael1 13:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Catholic Encyclopedia is used on wikipedia particularly because it is an open source document of repute, is there particular quote you have a problem or just a broad smeer campain.Hypnosadist 14:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a smear campaign. The Catholic Encyclopedia certainly has it's value for researching the catholic view of 1910. But using this article 10 times as a reference without telling our readers, that this is a view from colonial times is a deception respectively camouflage. Raphael1 15:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I have no problem with it being clearly named as the Catholic Encyclopedia, but i feel Colonial times is POV what does the last years of the Turkish/Otterman control over the middle east got to do with this?Hypnosadist 15:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Colonial times" is not a POV, it's history. Following the collapse of the Ottoman empire France controlled Syria and Lebanon and the United Kingdom controlled the Mandate of Palestine. And lets not forget the colonialization of Africa accompanied by widespread Christianizations. French Equatorial Africa was established 1910. And guess why there's a Port Harcourt in Nigeria? Raphael1 00:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Why are there so many moslim nations in africa, oh yes Arabia got a head start on colonising africa. You can't leave your POV out of a single post can you?Hypnosadist 00:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never denied the expansion of the Umayyad Dynasty. But would you trust Umayyad sources on pre-Islamic polytheism of the Berbers or other African pre-Islamic indigenous beliefs? Raphael1 08:57, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't follow.  There is nothing that says that religious spread is necessarily colonial... nor is there anything that says that all Western texts are Colonial.  I mean, we have much bigger problems with passive voice criticism.  Look at the section "Domestic behaviour"... the 'criticism' there is Muslim sources.  If I say I kill people there is no criticism in that.  There is only criticism when someone criticizes me for my actions.  Therefore wife beating is not criticism of Islam unless someone is criticizing the policy... which those sources are explaining their interpretations... not criticizing them. gren グレン 00:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly Gren welcome to the wonderful world of the criticism of islam, if you criticise islam your're islamophobic, and if your islamophobic you can't be in this article!!!!Hypnosadist 10:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Also Gren you'll get called names and have your're culture and family insulted(see above), but thats because they see any legitamate criticism as Blasphemy.Hypnosadist 10:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Hence it is evident how utterly mistaken those are who may have held that Islam is a kind of useful, possibly necessary, transition, between Fetishism and Christianity. On the contrary, Islam as it were crystallizes the heart and mind of man. It is not a step taken upward, but a wall that arrests all progress.
Hmm ... do they possibly have an agenda?
Raphael1 11:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes Raphael1 they have an agenda and thats pushing the idea that there religion is better than all the others just like every POV muslim source in this article.Hypnosadist 11:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While this idea has been widespread in early 20th century, nowadays most religious leaders of all faiths are committed to seek reconciliation rather than conflict. Do you intend to revive colonial times by spreading their propaganda in Wikipedia? Raphael1 12:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I hope you are right about most religious leaders of all faiths are committed to seek reconciliation rather than conflict, but i believe them less than polititians. If the italian police/security services screw up and there is a successful attack in rome against a catholic holy site then you will find that this pope is nowhere near as nice and leftwing as john-paul2.Hypnosadist 11:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Advent 

message: Reading through the article, I noticed it mentioned this guy way too much. Is there no other author that agrees with him or is acceptable enough to slash in and replace some of his responses to criticisms? Anonymous 22:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have also for example John Esposito, but I haven't read his works. --Aminz 05:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Montgomery Watt

message: A quotation appears in this article that attributes to me a view that I do not hold; in fact, my article cited by the wikipedia entry explicitly rejects that view.
Please remove the quotation. If you'd like to see the original article, you can read it at http://web.archive.org/web/19991109075328/www.jaring.my/just/UNhr50An.html
Thanks, Shirin Sinnar
:Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. I read your article at the link provided, and I agree that the source is being misquoted. Unfortunately, because this page is protected from editing except by sysops; we will just have to wait until one responds to this. 
:::On a different note, I hate to sound naїve, but how exactly do we know it is you? While your IP address indeed shows that it is from the Bay Area, other than that there is no evidence of you actually being Shirin Sinnar. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 09:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shirin Sinnar Quotation 

message: The standard bearer of Neutrality is how other similar articles are treated, other religions have two articles critiscism of X where biblical inconsistencies are mentioned, and anti-X where others attack the religion.
Examples:
Criticism of Judaism vs Anti-Judaism
Criticism of Christianity vs Anti-Catholicism or Anti-ProtestantismFlanker 08:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NO NO NO this article is about legitamate critisim of the ideas, concepts and most of all the actions of Islam as evidenced by the people who believe in it(and say they are doing it in the name of islam), not rants or insults. The problem with this article is its not critical enough, and the criticisms used are not relivent to the modern world (i don't care that some christian scholar in the middle ages thought Mohammed was possesed by the devil, they thought that of a lot of people). The fact that criticism is often called islamophobia is one of the criticisms missing from this article. Also the 25 million plus people enslaved under the rules of islam is not given enough prominance etc. I mean come on terrorism does not even get a mention, what a joke.Hypnosadist 10:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your stance is far removed from a neutral one, this article is very western centric and the evidence of anti-islam bias is that all critiscism of X are entirely biblical and logical inconsistencies, christianity in particular has a darker history than islam if we assume that followers represent the relgion, for every UBL there is a Hitler, terrorism a crusade. I just ask for balance and to avoid western centric bias.Flanker 21:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Criticism of Islam has been removed from vertually every article on each subject so it has all been dumped here. This is an encyclopedia it is about Facts, facts such as Islam explicitly says you can own another human. This encyclopedia is not h:ere to push your agenda of moral relativism, a crime is a crime. Terrorism has supported by many notable Scholars of Islam, this article is not about what muslims would like to be criticised about but what Islam is criticised for.Hypnosadist 09:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I question your neutrality re: this article all I propose is that it given the same treatment the other two major religions of the region are given. Read the articles linked criticism of christianity and judaism only deals with biblical and logical inconsistencies, in the bible slavery,rape, murder is sometimes promoted too.Flanker 15:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Its not my neutrality is not the issue its the neutrality of the article. There are many critical articals such as Roman Catholic sex abuse cases. All the criticisms keep getting dumped here off the articles they should be in. The Criticisms of the Prophet should be in Muhammad but no its not there. Help the criticism get in the right place.Hypnosadist 16:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again Neutrality is what I am after not convinience or encyclopedic value, I find it POV that neither Christianity nor Criticism of Christianity has any of what is present here despite a much darker history than Islam. So if they are relegated to anti-x then so should this article that is mostly islamophobia opinion.Flanker 14:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: This is an encycolpedia, facts presented by scholars are what is important not your opinion of whether cristianity or islam has a worse history (or present). That criticism of Islam is Islamophobia is your POV that is both irrelivent and insulting.Hypnosadist 17:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is supposed to be an encyclopedia that is NEUTRAL and free of regional bias, if the term Islamophobia disturbs you then anti-islam may be a more neutral term in accordance to standards, I just linked to Islamophobia because it anti-islam redirects there.Flanker 18:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great parts of the article should be merged with [[Islamophobia]] 

message: The section ...2 Alleged intolerance of Islam to criticism uses the weasel word "alleged". There are criticisms in the section with factual evidence which satisfies the dictionary definition of intolerance i.e. Islam is not tolerant of the examples of critics listed. A better title is simply something like, Criticism of Islam's Intolerance of its critics
which I feel is better as apostates are viewed as critics and the section actually mentions examples of these critics and the factual evidence of the intolerance they receive. I'm not too concerned if it is death, fines or prisons that are used to punish apostates; the issue is that any apostacy is tolerated ?. The answer is no thus the criticism of intolerance still stands. If the situation is one in which a balance of judgment was needed then the content should clearly indicate what the two sides are. Sticking in alleged and then only one side is implying there are balancing arguments. Given the title of the whole article is Criticism of 'x' then the section 2 heading is not alleged as it is consistent with that title. The same criticism could be placed on the Christian doorstep too with respect to intolerance of apostacy (specifically apostasy a Fide) though nowadays modern secular society makes this particular aspect of canon law unenforcable and thus just a footnote. Ttiotsw 06:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change suggested to title of  2 Alleged intolerance of Islam to criticism 

message: H.E. had concerns about Robert Spencer as a reliable source. I agree with him. --Aminz 10:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  H.E.'s concerns 

message: Would you please read the source before reverting back my edit. You can find the article by Lewis here: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html . 
Lewis says: "Both the Old and New Testaments recognize and accept the institution of slavery."... "The Qur'an, like the Old and the New Testaments, assumes the existence of slavery. It regulates the practice of the institution and thus implicitly accepts it." --Aminz 04:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The erroneous insinuation is that the Bible also "regulates the practice" (of slavery). "It", particularly the New Testament, does not. I will persistantly delete any vague attempts to equate the Quran and Bible along these particular lines.--Mike18xx 04:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Please do not use Lewis (whom I consider to be a notorious bonehead regardless of his "notability"), or anyone else for that matter, to introduce moral-equivalence logical-fallacies. Those are like crab-grass in an encyclopedia, and must be drowned in harsh chemical-pesticides in order to preserve the health of the lawn.--Mike18xx 04:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: "Famous" is irrelevant; accuracy is relevant. (Frankly, *none* of these writers are "famous" in any remotely popular conception of the term; e.g., The Beatles are famous, Lewis and Spencer are not.)--Mike18xx 05:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You are greatly in error if you believe that "name-dropping" to promote a logical fallacy of equivalence passes muster at well-managed encyclopedias.--Mike18xx 08:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Your note is irrelevent to my argument. I will leave you to research what a moral equivalence logical fallacy is on your own time. Suffice to say this: If your (as an editor) counter-argument to an ethical criticism (e.g., criticisms of slavery) is, essentially, "But-but these other guys did it too!, according to this famous dude!", you're committing one -- because what a non-Islamic entity is doing is irrelevent to an article critical of aspects of Islam. When I can such a passage, it's due to lack of relevency and commission of a logical-fallacy, not lack of appreciation for the notability of your famous dude.--Mike18xx 09:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Aminz i think you are wrong on two counts. First in wikipedia other people/ countries/ faiths involved in the slave trade are criticised, for example Britains part in the trans atlantic trade. It would be dishonest of me to criticise Islam without the refference to my peoples involvement in slavery, but i do so i'm honest. Second error comes from the claims Islam makes about itself and its link with slavery. Islam claims to be the PERFECT word of a PERFECT GOD on what is moral and what isn't, and that this Morality is immutable over time. So according to Islam slavery is Moral, not only 1400 years ago or 700 years ago but also today. So as Islam claims that slavery is a moral (mandated by God) trade it is right to criticise it more today as i doubt you could find a Jew or Christian to say slavery is moral.Hypnosadist 14:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hypnosadist, I understand your points especially the second one. The very same point was also made by Watt. I think your point is a good one and should be added to the article as soon as you could fine a peer-reviewed scholarly source supporting your view. My argument is however that Lewis belives that "The institution of slavery had indeed been practiced from time immemorial. It existed in all the ancient civilizations of Asia, Africa, Europe, and pre-Columbian America. It had been accepted and even endorsed by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as other religions of the world." He doesn't say only Islam accepted slavery. Similarly, "The Qur'an, like the Old and the New Testaments, assumes the existence of slavery." He doesn't say only Qur'an assumes the existence of slavery. I was adding the context to the quote of him. --Aminz 09:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Aminz as usual you are quoting Lewis exactly and in correct wikipedia policy, thats why i didn't delete it when i checked what you posted (more to read his work which i havn't before), i'm just saying in my (meaningless on wikipedia) opinion he is misrepresenting the context of slavery in the new testiment. Out of interest this line of reasoning was used by some to validate the atlantic slave trade, its debunking was one of the victories that led to the end of that evil trade.Hypnosadist 17:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Hypnosadist. Hypnosadist, I have also had such experiences where I felt an scholar, even a notable one, makes strange arguments. Unfortunately, I don't know famous academic scholars of the Bible to be able to find another view on the context of slavery in the new testiment. I hope you know some. --Aminz 21:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I talking to a Quaker friend of mine, and given their place in history of both Christianity and Slavery he should be able to get me some cool references.Hypnosadist 14:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: WTF Kirby! Slavery is slavery, there is no good kind of slavery! The slavery that my country (Britain) was part of (either roman or atlantic) was not nicer because my ancestors did it (or in the case of Rome were victims). The one thing i agree with you is "Slavery 1400 years ago in the Arabian Peninsula is not what most readers imagine when they read the word slavery." most people especially in the rich west think slavery is a bad job with no wage. It is the complete lack of control over any aspect of your life, you have the right to be worked to death, the right to be raped and or beaten, you have the right to starve and be thirsty at your masters whim. Kirby please tell us about how "Slavery 1400 years ago in the Arabian Peninsula" is nice, tell us the rules and how they are inforced (or not as the case is), then sell me one of your children into slavery under those rules (bet you don't want to!).Hypnosadist 13:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Hypnosadist, I also think that it's "right" to criticize slavery (in Islam and wherever/whenever else). But Wikipedia is not intended for criticism or praise of anything (it must only cite, correctly, what others have said). You and the other editors need to discuss on how to present the Islamic teaching and actual workings of slavery, based on scholarly research, not what any of us think of slavery. Forget "what people would think", forget logic, and explain what the Qur'an is talking about when it talks about slavery, without using inflammatory and quite possibly inaccurate comparisons. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 15:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having just read the document provided i'm shocked by Lewis' lack of understanding of basic logic. Things like "From many allusions , it is clear that slavery is accepted in the New Testament as a fact of life." maybe thats because slavery was a fact of life in the roman empire. How about that no known civilisation at that time or before had existed without slaves, maybe that was why they thought it was a "fact of life". Then he goes for the classic Epistle to Philemon, which is written about a slave who is christian to a non-christian master, and states the slave should serve his master as he would christ (as opposed to slitting your master's throat as he sleeps, which would not be very christian). This is not the same a saying slavery is legal which both lewis and this article are now trying to say. If you read the whole section its easy to see this is due to determanistic thinking (ie God made you a slave) in christianity not "acceptance".Hypnosadist 00:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Bernard Lewis is a *hack*.--Mike18xx 05:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Hypnosadist, why don't you bring neutrality to the article by quoting other scholars. Lewis is a notable and respected scholar and he has published his work in Oxford press. --Aminz 09:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bernard Lewis's quote on Slavery 

message: The source of this photograph is http://www.pcpages.com/ani/polgr/inani/lop/thenow4/thenow04.htm 
This page is not reliable according to WP:RS. --Aminz 04:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that you're claiming something doesn't mean that it's true. Pony up your evidence.--Mike18xx 05:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes,  comes from a Website with a bias against Islam.  However, this does not warrant its deletion per criteria at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion.--Patchouli 05:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is irrelevent whether or not the website has bias against Islam. However, the website does not state where the image came from, and whether or not it is copywrighted. Given the amateur quality of the website, it will not be likely that the webmaster created the image himself, and probably copied and pasted it from somewhere else. Thus, without any knowledge of its copywright status, it cannot be used on Wikipedia. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 06:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: If we want to play an speculation game, then I think it has been posted by an Iranian expatriate whose news outlet was shut down by the mullahs.  It isn't our job to allege copyright infringements without proof.--Patchouli 06:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The source for Photograph is unreliable