Talk:Kurt Meyer

message: these english versions are meanwhile worse than the german. lucky to speak Russian.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.129.198 (talk) 21:16, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  weird 

message: Article reassessed and graded as start class.  Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met.   With appropriate citations and references, this article would easily qualify as B class if not higher.   --dashiellx (talk) 16:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that there is too much insignificant detail in terms of the military engagements in which he was involved. (I cleaned up a little of the writing and many of the inconsistent usages of capitalized and noncapitalized letters, but content takes much longer obviously). Having said that, I think some time ago [a couple years?] I added some sentences about how Meyer defended himself against the war crime charges in his book Grenadiers--charges which were eventually dismissed entirely, based in large part on the testimony of the Canadians who had fought against him--but these lines have since been deleted, and the impression is given that he was simply "let go" (for what? good behavior? a supposed "Nazi war criminal" sentenced to die is just "let go"? I think a little more explanation is required, especially since the introduction described his career as having been "ruined" by his conviction (as opposed to the war ending with Germany losing)? Was it still "ruined" after his conviction was overturned?) Historian932 (talk) 03:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008 

message: Check it out. Thanks. Wallie (talk) 12:33, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears to have come from the German Federal archive --Jim Sweeney (talk) 17:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyrite on main pic

message: * If you want images, check out Meeting Of Generals by Tony Foster. Methuen,1986, --Oracleofottawa (talk) 03:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Great Kurt Meyer Book

message: Kurt Meyer's war crimes are indeed cited in Anthony Beevor's book; in my (British) pocket edition he does so on page 181. The man was a Nazi murderer. Live with it. Perhaps someone in possession of the same edition of Beevor's book as I can reinsert the well-sourced information about Meyer's war crimes; I really can't be bothered to do so.Ojevindlang (talk) 14:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: No hoax

message: I have spent this morning in the library reading Casual slaughters and accidental judgements : Canadian war crimes prosecutions, 1944-1948. (Patrick Brode, 1997. ). It proved quite helpful in explaining some issues, but not others:
# The Canadian War Crimes organization, from its formation in 1943, was only set up to prosecute war crimes committed against Canadian soldiers. It explicitly decided not to extend its remit to cover atrocities against civilians: "At a December 1943 meeting, CWCAC [Canadian War Crimes Advisory Committee] established its intention to limit its investigations to acts against Canadian servicemen and nationals. Only Justice Department representative Charles Stein 'raised for consideration the question of execution of Jews in Germany'. The committee was not interested in the question for it 'felt that atrocities against Jews in Germany could not be considered war crimes'." (p. 31) A report in March 1946 mentioned 106 cases which had been uncovered by the Canadian group but could not be prosecuted for various reasons, among which was those where the victims were not Canadian. (p. 39, my emphasis)
# The prosecution was aware of allegations of earlier war crimes: "If the judge advocate would let him, he [Macdonald] wished to examine Meyer's career in the Nazi party and allegations that he committed atrocities against the Russians." (p. 58) The discussion of the trial proper is unclear as to whether Macdonald - the prosecutor - introduced this material or not; I've not been able to find any indication either way in the chapter on the trial.
# Whilst there were a large number of incidents linked to 12 SS Panzer, Meyer's was the only major case brought. (p. 45-46) Three more cases were potentially prosecutable, Mouen, Le Mesny-Patril and Chateau d'Audries, but none of these were brought to trial by Canada. The latter is described as "inexplicable" that it was never put to trial - the primary suspect was actually held in a French prison at the time, which does not say much for inter-Allied communication! Le Mesny was eventually tried by a British court in 1948 after the Canadians had turned over their files to the UK prosecutors; two men were hanged. (p. 202-206)
# After his sentence was commuted in 1946: "After being flown to England, Meyer bided his time in English jails. There was some doubt as to whether he was headed west or east. The Communist Berlin newspaper, Deutsche Volkszeitung, editorialised that if the Canadians would not shoot Meyer, then the Soviet Union wished to put him on trial for murder at Kharkov. But nothing came of this, and and the end of April Meyer took ship for Canada." (p. 107)
So, what are we left with?
Point 1 seems the most critical here - it is absolutely clear that the Canadian court was constituted only to try war crimes against Canadian soldiers, rather than broader civilian atrocities such as those tried at Nuremberg. As such, their failing to prosecute a charge relating to events in Poland or Russia against civilians is to be expected - it can't reasonably be interpreted as omitting it because they didn't think it would stick.
Point 2 confirms that other allegations had been made, and were known - at least to the prosecution - in late 1945, even if they were not used as the basis for a trial. Point 4 clarifies that they were known to the Soviets, who contemplated bringing him to trial; no explanation is given for why they did not.
As before, the statement he was accused of these crimes is reliably sourced to Lieb. The explanation for why the Canadians did not prosecute is explained above. I do not think that further speculation as to why he was never tried for these is really helpful; we are not saying he committed them, just that he was accused of them, and the historical record clearly indicates this without providing any significant evidence that the claims are frivolous. Shimgray | talk | 10:17, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the information about the decision of the Canadians to limit their brief to crimes against Canadians should be included in the part of the article about the legal proceedings against Meyer, once the present disagreement has been resolved. Ojevindlang (talk) 10:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: ...and that's the material now reinstated. I've included the Canadian-scope note in a rewritten section on the trial. The trial itself was quite interesting to read about, to be honest - a lot of courtroom drama in there - and I suspect it might make a good article in its own right at some future point. I've avoided including too many details here so as not to overweight the article, but I'd like to go back and flesh out the Normandy section with some of it; the book also had some good material on his later life and the domestic reaction in Canada. Shimgray | talk | 22:31, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  And the mystery is solved 

message: The copyright images were removed on August 16 2010 or thereabouts. I have made do with the copyright free images from the commons. I did not remove them! No text has been altered save to add inline reference citations. And yes I am as miffed as you are. But the rules are the rules. But if you do have some pictures of Kurt from Greece from a Grenadier Grand Dad... Please share them to the commons for posterity... if not they will only be removed by the bot.. Cheers.--Oracleofottawa (talk) 04:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright Images Removed

message: The date of death of Fritz Witt is taken from Meyers book Grenadiers.. A Division Commander remembers those important days. I provided a Cited reference from the book. I would think his date would be the most accurate as he was actually there.....--Oracleofottawa (talk) 01:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Death of Fritz Witt

message: I have been told by people with Canadian military contacts that the imprisoned Meyer was often consulted on tank tactics for NATO exercises and on at least one occasion made suggestions that helped Canadian forces defeat their US counterparts in war games.
Unfortunately, I can find no confirming citation. Can anyone, or is this just urban legend? 99.240.65.32 (talk) 15:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meyer and NATO exercises? 

message: Original text: 
Meyer wrote of this battle:
But what is this? Am I seeing clearly? An enemy tank is pushing through the orchards of Contest! My God! What an opportunity! The tanks are driving right across II Battalion's front! The unit is showing us its unprotected flank. I give orders to all battalions, the artillery and the available tanks. Do not shoot! Open fire on my order only!
The commander of our tank regiment has positioned his command vehicle in the garden of the monastery. A wireless link is quickly established with the tank.... Wünsche, commander of the tank regiment, quietly transmits the enemy tank movements. Nobody dares raise his voice.
... An unbearable pressure now rests on me. It will happen soon now. The enemy spearhead pushes past Franqueville and starts across the road. I give the signal for the attack to Wünsche, and can just hear his order, "Achtung! Panzer marsch!" The tension now fades away. There are cracks and flashes near Franqueville. The enemy tank at the head of the spearhead smokes and I watch the crew bailing out. More tanks are torn to pieces with loud explosions.
I believe that such extensive quoting from Meyer's own book is unnecessary and is not objective POV. I'd like to remove. Thoughts?K.e.coffman (talk) 21:35, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and removed, along with other content sourced to Meyer, who is not a reliable source in this context. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:21, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote from Meyer 

message: I had cut this site from the external links, but would like to double check to see what the opinions are on whether or not it belongs in the External links section. I'm not sure if this is a legit research effort or more of a community project. Please let me know! --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:44, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about Jason Pipes / feldgrau.com 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kurt Meyer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080912012732/http://www.dnd.ca/dhh/collections/books/files/books/Victory_e.pdf to http://www.dnd.ca/dhh/collections/books/files/books/Victory_e.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:53, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :
:If this is heading for GAN, it could do with another image or two.
:The infobox lists two "battles" in which Meyer was involved. The main text lists several others, arguably of greater significance. (Eg Barbarossa.) You should pick a level of significance and list all "battles" above it; ideally all of those for which there is a Wikipedia article, but in a long list you may chose to remove overlaps (Normandy/Caen etc) and/or more "trivial" ones.
:Where the article reads "he transferred to the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (LSSAH) in May 1934, becoming an Untersturmführer" it could, IMO, do with a brief explanation of what the LSSAH was. Eg '- Adolf Hitler's bodyguard, which was in the process of converting to an independent military unit -' or whatever.
:You mention Meyer becoming an Untersturmführer in 1934, and his promotion to Sturmbannführer in 1940, but seem to have skipped two promotions. With military biographies it is normal to give at least the year of each promotion, if no more.
:"Hauptsturmfuhrer (captain)" If you give the rank equivalent for one foreign rank, which is good practice, you should consistently give it for all foreign ranks on first mention.
:The term Waffen-SS appears in the middle of the article. While it is Wiki-linked, I feel that a brief explanation of its relationship to the SS would be helpful to a reader.
:Gog the Mild (talk) 12:20, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you; I addressed these by simplifying & removing some of the ranks which were not necessary. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:42, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Honest question: Removing most of his promotions completely does not really seem to simplify the article, and rather dimish the information given; shouldn't the promotions be kept? After all, most Wikipedia articles on military people record when and for what they were promoted. Applodion (talk) 23:50, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: "Colonel" and "general" are common terms, while SS ranks are obscure ones not known to the average reader. In any case, these were non-senior ranks so it's not really material. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:46, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, thanks for the explanation. Applodion (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestions

message: *"He was described by historians as a leading Waffen-SS apologist" "was" implies that he no longer is. Assuming that this is not what you mean - let me know if it is - then you probably want 'is' or 'has been'. Could you let me know which best reflects the sources.
*"In early 1943 ... during the fighting south of Kharkov in March 1942" I assume that the second date should be 1943?
:Gog the Mild (talk) 12:19, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed; thank you. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:42, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy edit queries

message: The paragraph concerning Meyer’s release from prison now reads:
Meyer petitioned for clemency in late 1950, including a surprising offer to serve in a Canadian or United Nations military force if released. The government was willing to let him return to a German prison, but not release him outright; he was transferred to a British military prison in Werl, West Germany, in 1951. Meyer was released from prison on 7September 1954, after the German government reduced his sentence to fourteen years and shortened it further for good behaviour. When he returned to Germany in 1951, he told a reporter that nationalism was past and that "a united Europe is now the only answer".
Lackenbauer and Madsen (2007) write that the principal driver behind Meyer’s and other German prisoners’ release was Allied negotiations with the new West German government over German rearmament (see pp. 22-26).  They also note that the Canadian government retained authority over him after his transfer to West Germany and thus made the decision to reduce his sentence and ultimately release him (see pp. 26-27 and 636, 643).  Therefore, I would propose the paragraph be adjusted to the following:
Meyer petitioned for clemency in late 1950, including a surprising offer to serve in a Canadian or United Nations military force if released. More importantly, the new West German government was seeking the release of German war criminals incarcerated in Allied prisons and the Canadian and other western Allied governments were looking to gain West German support for NATO to oppose possible Soviet aggression in Europe. The Canadian government was willing to let him return to a German prison, but not release him outright; he was transferred to a British military prison in Werl, West Germany, in 1951. Meyer was released from prison on 7September 1954, after the Canadian government reduced his sentence to fourteen years and shortened it further for good behaviour. When he returned to Germany in 1951, he told a reporter that nationalism was past and that "a united Europe is now the only answer".
Sean Barnett (talk) 03:10, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Release from Prison