Talk:Papiamento

message: While I understand that Portuguese Jews and Spanish Jews were originally the same and bilingual, and most portuguese Jews originated in Spain and went there because the inquisition in portugal would not come till later,none of these groups would speak ladino! rather they would Speak Standard Spanish & portuguese! Ladino (as a language) is alien to them, and is the language of EASTERN Sephardim! (turks,greeks,etc)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.66 (talk) 21:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ladino?! 

message: Seems like all the lists of papiamento/english/portuguese words should be moved out to another article now and combined with Papiamento Verbs, Food and Beverages in Papiamento, and More words in Papiamento.  I will do that if there are not significant objections.  I have some more lists of papiamento words that I would like to integrate when I get some time. - Taxman 16:57, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)
A couple of problems.  First, I've just removed this new addition: “and one ethymologic, called Papiamento, reason why it resembles Spanish (in Aruba).”  I assuming that 'etymological' was meant, but I don't see how it makes sense in the context.  In fact, even correcting the last part to: 'which is the reason that it resembles Spanish', it just doesn't fit here.
Secondly, the same person has made a lot of alterations to the lists of words & phrases.  I don't know if it's the same person who made the original list (it really would help if people registered), nor am I in a position to judge their accuracy.  Some help would be useful here.
Actually, thirdly, is it appropriate to an article like this to be made up largely of what amounts to a Papiamento–English phrase book/dictionary? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:42, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: list of words

message: I like the phrasebook idea, so I don't object to its presence in the Wikipedia.  But the Papiamento article should focus on the language itself:  Grammar, Phonology, Orthography, History, Dialects, Syntax that kind of thing, and the phrasebook should be moved to Papiamento vocabulary or Papiamento phrasebook.  I didn't know Papiamento is a tonal language, as the article asserts, but I couldn't help noticing that there's no indication of what the "tones" are, nor is there any representation of the tones in the extensive phrasebook.  Tomer TALK 22:28, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
:As you'll notice above I agree with you, I just never got to it. I know very little about the language except what I have read in a few things over the last year. I say go for it. Se what other languages have done as an example. Maybe there is a Wikiproject with guidelines. - Taxman 23:05, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
::Sadly, I'm not your man.  As I indicated, I didn't even know it was tonal.  If you look at my contribs, you'll notice most of my linguistic interests lately have been elsewhere... :-/  Tomer TALK 00:16, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
* I think there should be a wikiproject on Creoles (obviously realistical) - with substract language and with special focus on superstact. Has I see in wikipedia, many people confuse the substract with Superstract and occasionally is very upseating to constantly correcting it. This is because these languages are very different from normal ones. I'm thinking in completing and correcting the Portuguese Creole article, anbd also dividing it into several, because it is too big. Has for the phrases it was just a curiosity that a speaker and I did, just to see with our eyes where the origin of the language was. There are many good linguists out there! (irony)  -Pedro 15:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization of article 

message: From what I read years ago, Papiamento ta came from tabata , itself from Spanish (and Portuguese?) estaba ("it/he/she was"). --Error 00:02, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ta

message: The article suggests:
"The use of "b" instead of "v" is very common in the African Portuguese Creoles due to their relation with Northern Portugal dialects." 
What relation would that be? FilipeS 20:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Relation between African creoles and northern Portuguese

message: "Portuguese origin words:
* sapato		= shoes - Portuguese, sapato, Spanish, zapato"
Why is "sapato" listed as a Portuguese loan to Papiamentu? It could just as well have come from Spanish. (Don't be misled by the spelling; Spanish "zapato" is pronounced [sapato] in most dialects.) FilipeS 20:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Sapato": from Portuguese, or Spanish?

message: Tim Horton is quoted as saying Papiamento is the "only language created in the 20th century." Should this be included, especially in the introduction, since the history section indicates that the language has been around for at least a couple hundred of years?  Perhaps someone who is better informed could fix this...  Fufthmin 21:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took it out. However, you could have at least spelled his name correctly… —Sesel 00:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Sesel -- I most have been thinking about breakfast or a donut snack when I wrote that.  My apologies to Mr Hector. Fufthmin 15:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tim Horton quote 

message: The king Joao I de Portugal settled atlantic west african islands (Sao Tome ,  Prince...) with thousand sefardies jews refugees from Spain. The guinean gulf  was the slave trade center. Looking for in internet. It is a buzz that Columbus was sefardi jew descent from Balear islands people.  212.97.181.220 10:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sefardies 

message: I recely removed a piece of text inserted into the history section of this article that is badly formatted and does not fit in the flow of the rest of the article. It represents a phenomenon I observed between Aruban and Curaçaoan debates on history recently, something I would refer to as the present-day politics of the past; involving re-inventions or selective interpretations of history to buttress present-day nationalist efforts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Poolofthoughts (talk • contribs)
The article makes reference to Jossy Mansur as the main proponent of disproving the "identity politics nationalist" theory of papiamento's west african roots, it says in the article that the roots of papiamento are some kind of Indian Spanish.  
It would certainly be interesting to see proof or evidence for Papiamento being of Indian origins, there is certainly an Indian influence on the language, but the authors of this article cite Mansur as the main proponent of this theory, which is a precarious thing to do as Jossy Mansur has no degree in linguistics what-so-ever, nor in anthropology, nor in history or any related field, whereas linguists in Curacao such as Dr. Frank Martinus Arion who claim West African origins are indeed linguists.
There is constant mention of how the argument for papiamento's roots being West African are completely baseless and rely entirely on the emotions of "identity politics nationalists," but never mentions or backs up these rather insulting opinions with any fact, whereas there are known theses and linguistic studies on the theme of Papiamento's West African connections, such as by Todd Dandare (Mag. Linguist) and the study Kiss of a Slave by Dr. Efraim Frank Martinus, which strangely is cited or mentioned at the bottom of the page despite the content of the article.83.83.44.57 23:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aruban/Arawak origin vs. Afro-Portuguese pidgin 

message: I’ve made some corrections in the Cape Verdean Creole column in the Comparison of Vocabularies table. I’ve chosen the Santiago variant because some people claim that it is the one that is acoustically closer to Papiamento.The idea of a table comparing several Creoles is interesting. But perhaps, instead of “tourist sentences”, it would be more interesting sentences that show the core characteristics of several Creoles. Here are some suggestions: the basic sentence structure (SVO); personal pronouns; the verbal system (showing Tense/Mood/Aspect); number and gender inflexion.And when will we see a Swadesh list comparing all of the Portuguese Creoles?Ten Islands 01:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Emerson! As you can see, the Cape Verdean Creole is not standardized yet. That means that each person speaks one of the 9 varieties of Cape Verdean Creole. It would be ridiculous to put all of the 9 varieties of Cape Verdean Creole, since in most of the examples the words would be the same! In the same way, there is no reason to put the 3 varieites of Papiamentu (Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao), neither the 2 main varieties of Guinea-Bissau Creole (Southern–Bissau and Northern–Cacheu). I’ve chosen the Santiago variant because, as I said before, according to Cape Verdean Creole speakers living in Netherlands, the Santiago variant is the closer one (at least by hearing) to Papiamentu. Second, I (re)corrected the word for “welcome” because in Cape Verde we do not have any specific word to greet someone who has just arrived, we simply use the Portuguese expression. The Cape Verdean Creole sentence “Nhos bem dretu” means “You came well”.At last, if you really speak Papiamentu I would be very glad to swap information with you, since I am very interested in comparing Portuguese Creoles. See you. Ten Islands 09:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparison

message: I changed the name of the 'sounds' section to 'phonology' (it's proper name), and added the IPA values of the 'Dutch sounds' after the ortography. However this sections needs a complete rewrite and great expanding, that's why I also added a tag. It needs:
- consonant chart (IPA)
- vowel chart (IPA)
- phonological and phonotectical rules
I don't speak or study Papiamento, so unfortunately I cannot do it. Jalwikip (talk) 11:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonology 

message: Should the following sentence be in the Present Status section rather than the beginning of the article? 
The biggest menace to the existence and the further development of Papiamentu is that native speakers tend to deviate from its origins by replacing original African, Portuguese and Dutch words with Spanish equivalents.
Also, I know this will sound nitpicky, but the first sentence "Papiamento (or Papiamentu) is the language spoken on the Caribbean islands of Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao)" creates the impression that Papiamento is the only language spoken on the islands. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say something like "Papiamento is the native language of most inhabitants of the Caribbean islands..." I don't know exactly how to word it.--Rikat (talk) 22:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  beginning of article 

message: :The first Papiamento newspaper was published in 1871 and titled "Civilisado" (The Civilizer). It should be noted that "civilizado" is Portuguese for "civilized".
Civilizado is civilized in Spanish and Portuguese, but civilizador is "civilizer".
I guess that this civilisado was stressed on o, wouldn't it?
--Error (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civilizado 

message: What's the difficulty in adding a chart of the consonants?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.58.119 (talk) 03:49, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still no consonants? 

message: there are many examples in the section of the forms 1. "PA-ra" (bird, gloss: from pájaro?) versus "pa-RA"  (stand or stop, gloss: aruba accent?) and 2. "para" (stand or stop) versus "para" (stopped or standing [sic]). The problem is that this illustrates only stress, or tone, and not both. If we will not use IPA (which, for tone, I can sympathize with), can we at least use accent marks and standardize on, say, capitals on the mores that have the tonal change? such that those examples, if I am reading them right, would read: 1. "PÁra" (bird) versus "páRA" (stand or stop, aruba) and 2. "PÁra" (stand or stop) versus "paRÁ" (standing or stopped [sic]) 
ps> It may be worth noting that encoding both stress and tone is basically prescribing regional accent to the language, and especially tonal conformance is considered irrelevant at least when first teaching students. --— robbie page talk 11:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  stress and tone 

message: in the "local development theory" section.--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 01:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  is "Aruac" "Arawak"? 

message: I was mostly unaware of this, because people tend to foccus on the former colonies with lasting legacy and until I read about the seafarers of Povoa de Varzim, Portugal (my town) for the wiki article. Which were prevalent seafarers, who worked not only in the local port but other important discovery age ports: Vila do Conde (a "twin" town of Povoa) and Lisbon and later also Spain. And Antilles/ West Indies/Castillian Indies is according to well-sourced studies was really prevalent among the local seafarers during this early period, before the Union with the Castille (16th century) and during the union (which opened the Spanish empire to the Portuguese) until the 17th century. They often took Africans in their trade routes as part of the crew to the Antilles and elsewhere. they also had important trade routes in Portuguese Africa.---Pedro (talk) 13:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: The Antilles and the Portuguese

message: Where can i find Websters online Papiamento – English Dictionary online? Best regards --Yoursmile (talk) 15:50, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Websters online Papiamento – English Dictionary 

message: papear means to eat  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Your-username-is-too-similar (talk • contribs) 23:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "papear" Spanish slang for chat is wrong 

message: Papiamento: A Spanish Creole (Centro Virtual Cervantes por Enrique Bernárdez) http://cvc.cervantes.es/el_rinconete/anteriores/julio_99/23071999_02.htm Enciclopediaenlinea2 (talk) 03:31, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Papiamento Spanish Creole 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  rfrf 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Papiamento is one of the only -- if not the only -- creoles based largely on Spanish -- not Portuguese.Mwidunn (talk) 16:04, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Not Portuguese

message: I wonder how the influence of Guene in Papiamentu can be dismissed with the phrase "However, because of the secret character of Guene, it never had much influence on Papiamento". My reasons for saying this:
(1)There exist no studies of Guene other than what Frank Martinus has included in his Kiss of a Slave. Both Martinus himself, and Johan Hartog, as well as oral traditions mention four dialects/variants of Guene spoken on the island before the language supposedly disappeared. If this really existed it would be quite fantastic if such a linguistic environment would not influence Papiamentu both structurally and lexically. 
(2) Since Guene has not been studied (despite the materials that exist in the Zíkinza Oral History Collection, in Paul Brenneker's  Sambumbu ethnographic series, and in his lexicon Mil palabra poko usá) it is difficult to know about African lexical and grammatical contributions to Papiamentu beyond the standard ones cited, or the relationship between African languages and Guene (Were the four varieties mostly based on Afro-Portuguese Atlantic creoles like Martinus says? Were there other regional languages involved? Are there major contributions from specific languages or language clusters?). So, how can we distinguish the African lexical contributions to Papiamentu from supposed non-contribution from Guene?
(3) Guene was still spoken in the 20th century, and transmitted by songmasters, and griots on the island. This is documented in the oral history done by Rene Rosalia, and in Frank Martinus' analysis of the Zíkinza Collection. Both are existing citable sources. Other oral history, that is not published, and thus probably not usable according to Wikipedia standards, also show this transmission through mid-20th century. It would be extremely difficult for such a late co-existence to not matter.
(4) Linguist Nicholas Quint has shown the influence of Bantu, and Benue-Kwa languages in Papiamentu. Disregarding theories (on-island origin, Afro-Atlantic Creole formation, more generic African contributions to a Afro-Atlantic creole base) the evidence at least overlaps with Frank Matinus' identification of Central African materials in Papiamentu. He related it to a West Central African coastal creole, but these elements could have also entered the language through borrowing while the Angolans/Congolese were already on the island. If so: was their language actually one of the four Guene languages spoken on the island? And would that not then be the source of words like guiambo, mangusá, fuku, wandu, funchi, etc?
(5) Although the idea that Guene was used as a secret language is  mentioned in the literature it is nowhere proven. Brenneker does mention this, and it is part of local lore. However, the main oral history informant for Guene, Martili Pieters, including for Brenneker (again, uncitable because it is unpublished) actually insisted that  there were slave masters who spoke Guene. So, while Guene may have been used as a secret language it might not have effectively served as such in some crucial situations. Lexical transfer to Papiamentu again shows up as a distinct possibility. Besides: this would only indicate transfer to the Papiamentu of slavemasters. Some Guene speakers themselves might have been monolinual, but the multilingual context would have meant that many did speak Papiamentu. The transfer would have been to their own versions of papiamentu. "Secret language" is a difficult category to prove if there were four different varieties. This sounds more like a language of a marginalized group, used for in-group communication and so, also with some secrecy surrounding it. This is the same situation as congo residual in Cuba: spoken as an insider language in the Congolgese community during slavery times, but many words are considered part of Cuban Spanish today. ObaTango (talk) 15:11, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The influence of Guene 

message: Men 190.88.249.192 (talk) 21:34, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Papiamentu 

message: Arguably some of these words listed wouldn't come 'directly' from Native American, rather having been transferred through Iberian or Dutch forms.
 orkan ("hurricane") – Taíno: juracán
 maishi ("corn") – Taíno: mahíz
The first word 'orkan' would likely come from Dutch 'orkaan', and the second word 'maishi', I would hazard a guess it's from some Spanish variety, due to -shi looking as if it was borrowed from the Spanish final pronunciation of -θ. (Although that might be more of a European than an American thing, when I think about it.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:01, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Native American origin words