Talk:Holodomor/Archive 2

message: It must be reminded that this topic is directly referenced from Ukrainian Genocide. It is what Holodomor is called worldwide. If anyone disputes this term, please do so properly on this talk page, without deleting whole sections directly related to the article. 
The question of why "Elimination of Ukrainian Cultural Elite" is included in the Holodomor article is trivial. The events related to the Ukrainian Genocide were going on before and during 1933 both in Ukrainian villages and cities. To separate the events in the cities, where tens of thousands of Ukrainian intellectuals were arrested and executed from the events in the villages, where millions of Ukrainians were starved to death is unthinkable. Why should they not be mentioned together? The reason for both of these tragic parts of the Ukrainian Genocide was underlined to be the same by the people in power in the USSR. They said many times to be "fighting Ukrainian nationalism" both in the villages and cities of Ukraine and Kuban.
::How are churches LINKED to famine? Considering that most of the repressions against religion took place in the 1918-1920s under Troitsky not Kaganovich then it is compleately irrlevent. Also if one remebers political repressions began mostly in 1937 under Ezhov not Kaganovich. So indeed the only place where these points belong is the history of the Ukrainian SSR, and if you want add there a heading Genocide and combine the famine, the religion and the purges TOGETHER. -- Kuban kazak 11:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And if anything repressions in Kuban took place in 1918-1920 as part of Lenins "Razkazachivanie" policy. By 1930s Cossacks were officially listed as peasents. And there was not Ukrainian Itelligentisia or Religion in the Kuban. -- Kuban kazak 11:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Please stop arbitrary deletions

message: The copyright of 70 year old images was discussed in detail above. Removing these images seems like a plain vandalism, so familiar in this article.--Andrew Alexander 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but did you bother adding copyright tags to them and citing their sources. The images were removed automatically by Wikipedian bots. Perhaps you could finally do something useful and edit the images to permenate their appearance on the article. -- Kuban kazak 12:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As a matter of fact, yes, I did bother. Right before you removed those images.--Andrew Alexander 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I am not concerned with the images for that fact. You solved the problem...great I am honestely happy for you. -- Kuban kazak 19:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Quotes and refrences that are repeated in the article later on. And what is the qoute saying? that Kuban suffered equal to Ukraine. Is that what the article is about? How the Kuban is suffered as Ukraine? No. Does that summarise the article? No. Does it belong in the lead? No.--Kuban kazak 12:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You removed several quotes, for your information. This is unacceptable and plain against WP policies.--Andrew Alexander 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote is repeated later in the text. I think putting quotes in the lead that give related information but not summarising the article is also unaccepatble
"Since the economic and social policies of the Soviet government are generally considered to have been the its main causes, the Holodomor is also frequently referred as Ukrainian Genocide" <-- K.k.'s quote--Andrew Alexander 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Now this does tie in many of the details, expressed by you together and such does belong in the lead.--Kuban kazak 12:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Well you can talk! Putting in together unconsiced facts with POV motivations like Mass-murders. Как говорят не ищи правду в других коли в тебе ее нету. -- Kuban kazak 12:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the Holodomor was a mass murder. Do you disagree? I would like to see some references for that as well.--Andrew Alexander 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well as there is no information, ie original NKVD documents that say that the pupose of the famine was to starve to death, then we can only assume. My personal opinion is irrelevant to WP for that fact. IMHO it was a famine and many people died. My condolences for those who died. However I do not see how some people in Lvov during the time when everyone mourns openely go around and burn Russian flags. -- Kuban kazak 19:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually it was formed in 1919 and by mid 1920s almost ceased to exist. Its final remains were terminated in 1930. Sorry got the dates wrong. But what I am pointing out is that the main repressions against religion circa 1918-1925-ish caused both ROC and UAOC to become only a shadow of themselves.--Kuban kazak 12:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's great that you're sorry. Unfortunately you continue following the same pattern over and over. Destroying the article with personal comments, deletions, made up history.--Andrew Alexander 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that is history would you like sources for that? Just go straight for any UAOC or ROC site and click history. -- Kuban kazak 19:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Latest deletions by Kuban kazak [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holodomor&diff=32316499&oldid=32314859]

message: Again, Kuban kazak, ignored all the previous discussion on this page and re-inserted bogus historical facts, e.g.,
"Although in 1918-1920 it /Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church/, along with the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) was subject to many repressions"
:And you cut off the post WWII, on the contrary this would support your case for genocide...and you remove it???  Вот ты меня удивляешь--Kuban kazak 02:13, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Destroyed. On the contrary the article now appears like a conscise article, not a series of misleading qoutes and facts. Please note that in my edit NOT A SINGLE FACT WAS OMMITED. But try actually reading my edit to the article and your edit from a 3rd person POV. Remember what I said, not a single fact of information which you provided is ommited. Once the person reads the article he will make his own conclusions about it, that is the point of WP on any constroversial issues, to simply lay down the facts. The question is how we do it?--Kuban kazak 02:13, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, destroyed. The article timeline is a mess. So are the reference numbers. So are the hisotrical facts. Instead of adding some value to the article in the form of references and quotes, you continue inserting quotes of yourself (outright baloney like "Seed grain stocks as a result of limited famine relief were low for the 1933 planting") and mixing the remaining content.--Andrew Alexander 05:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Timeline? This article is about the famine, not about the purges.-- Kuban kazak 14:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about the Holodomor, which is more than "just a famine". Insisting that it was "just a famine", with no events leading to it is a very narrow POV. So far you have found 3 articles on a Russian web site to support this POV. The POV has been included in the intro. But that's not enough for you. You wish to delete the whole section altogether to push the POV even further.--Andrew Alexander 20:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I think we should stick with the guidelines and actually first explain about the famine (or the famine part of the genocide if you like) and then talk about the genocide hypothesis. -- Kuban kazak 14:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What "guideline"? And we did explain what the Holodomor was in the intro. The one you were trying to erase so many times.--Andrew Alexander 20:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Your version is not only unconscise it is messed up and unordered. I mean an article on Aushwitz chambers will first talk about them and then put it in the larger aspect of the holocaust. Same here. Once again want an article on Ukrainian genocide then write one!!! -- Kuban kazak 14:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We already did! It's called "Holodomor". If you don't like it, go and write another article called "the process of starvation during the Holodomor" (right after you write "Auschwitz chambers", make sure you spell it right). Don't push your POV on this article.--Andrew Alexander 20:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case fell free to remove the info on the purges altogether! -- Kuban kazak 01:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand you want to remove the info about extra killings that happened in 1932-33 in Ukraine. Also to erase the word "genocide". Also to rewrite the whole article following the Russian examples you have provided. This simply can't be done! If it's hundreds of books and articles talking about the Holodomor and what has led to it, that information absolutely must be described in some form here. This description has to be accurate, without baloney that you try to put all around it, inventing history and mixing the timline and making it plain hard to read. You have invented history that never happened, how many times does this have to be repeated until you stop vandalizing this text?--Andrew Alexander 05:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The recent reverts by Kuban kazak [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holodomor&diff=32646908&oldid=32646355] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holodomor&oldid=32632919]

message: Andrew, before you go looking for a quote by Conquest saying the Holodomor was genocide, read this article: http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/bilinsky.html
Dietwald 19:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Holodomor probably not genocide

message: Andrew, I would like to apologize to you on something, namele the bloody definition of genocide thingy. Someone just pointed out a detail that for some reason totally slipped my mind:
"Art. 2. In the present convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:  
Mea culpa.
Dietwald 20:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. Dietwald, in the case you seek to make the intro shorter, there are many ways to do it without cutting the references. E.g. the phrase "The Soviet authorities also banned travel out of the famine affected areas under the pretext that people travelling for food spread "anti-kolkhoz agitation"." can be reduced to "The Soviet authorities also banned travel out of the famine affected areas." with a reference to the source after that sentence. There are plenty of sources available that confirm that. Also, the sentence "The exact number of casualties is unknown due to the fact that the pertinent archives of the NKVD (later KGB, and today FSB) remain closed to historians in general." is basically imprecise. NKVD may have never counted how many Ukrainians they killed that year. They never bothered. The fact of the closed archives, however, is still very important. Also, the sentence "The Soviet government admitted the famine's existence only in the late 1980s." needs a reference. So there is plenty of work to do there. Please join.--Andrew Alexander 22:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Grudging Apologies

message: According to the Russian State Archive of Social and Political History, between 2-3 million died in famine.
So WHO counted? –Gnomz007(?) 23:39, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zvezda numbers 

message: The portuguese article is only the best! Why?
Because they proved the genocidal nature of the Holodomor...
Wheatcroft lovers: please read this paper [] or [] or 
 or
 or
[]!
Do you want more? I have a lot...
In this Wikipedia, Genocide its like the Nanking Massacre, or the Pontic Greek Genocide, or the Revolt in the Vendée, or the Rohingya Massacre, or the First Jewish-Roman War, or the Darfur conflict, or the Bar Kokhba's revolt, or the Kitos War, etc, etc, etc, etc, but not the Holodomor! 
Amazing!
LuisMatosRibeiro 20:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A question of reason