Talk:Art Institute of Chicago

message: THis painting was listed as being housed here but on it's page it is listed as being in washington DC. I don't think it's at the AIC. I have removed it but someone should double check me on this. Infact the list of housed paintings should be checked by someone in the know. Dannygutters 19:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lunch at the Restaurant Fournaise 

message: Although a good introduction to the AIC today, this article ignores virtually all of the institution's history, including its former close ties to the School of the Art Institute of Chicago (which pre-dates it) and interesting curatorial controversies of the past.  It needs more information to be really encyclopedic. Artemis-Arethusa (talk) 15:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Would Like to See More History

message: I think a more full list of the museum's notable collection is needed, possibly in bullet point form. For example, major pieces like de Kooning's Excavation and Bacon's Figure with Meat are completely missing from the page. 71.201.132.221 (talk) 00:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Museum's Collection 

message: I'm beginning a major overhaul of this page. Some of the information is out of date or incomplete and there are major bits of information missing. The organization can use some work, too. This will be a multi-step process, but I'll work as quickly as I can so the page doesn't sit in limbo for too much longer. If anyone has anything you'd like to see added/subtracted/expanded/fixed and don't know how to do it, let me know here and I'll see what I can do. I'm a Chicago resident and a member of the Art Institute, so *hopefully* I can track down some of the answers.Mosfet007 (talk) 06:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why does the article start on FN 2?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.250.85.65 (talk) 11:53, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Overhaul

message: *John Hughes commentary - The Museum scene from Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
This is a very moving tribute to the Institute by Hughes. The scene from the film shows many of the Institute's greatest works. Perhaps it may be of use in the article. It's a great scene anyway. --TS 02:28, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's only been two years, but what the hell! I've taken the plunge and added a reference. --TS 16:31, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Ferris Bueller's Day Off|Ferris Bueller]] at the Art Institute

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Other speedy deletions 
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thread_title: File:JuanGris.Portrait of Picasso.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: For purposes of showing this, I made (and then immediately reverted) this version  that shows a free image (in this case, Am. Gothic) instead of Nighthawks. Those that want to keep Nighthawks need to show how this version is less comprehensive about the AIC than the version with Nighthawks. --MASEM (t) 00:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It would of course be less comprehensive and less encylclopedic if you eliminate Nighthawks because then that masterpiece of the museum is no longer shown in the article. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a nice link  - click on highlights see what comes up first...Modernist (talk) 12:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: A list with no context is not helpful. I realize there's no other implicit order on that list (not year, alphabetically, etc.) and so one can presume they weight it heavily, but that's OR to assume that's the reason they list it first. --MASEM (t) 13:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Masem—how would it benefit the article on the Art Institute of Chicago to include some of the tidbits of information that you seem to be searching for? Bus stop (talk) 13:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: To justify why we use the non-free image of Nighthawks to represent its importance to the AIC over any of the other free works that are also listed as masterpieces as part of the collection. If one can find sources that show how much more important Nighthawks is to AIC, then there's reason to consider allowing the non-free to highlight that, rather than replacing it with any free masterpiece image (which this would default to without that). --MASEM (t) 14:18, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You're not answering my question: "how would it benefit the article"? Are you talking about information presented in discussions on this Talk page or information actually included in the article? If you are searching for information to justify inclusion of the non-free image in the article, and you are also contemplating putting such material in the article, are we assured that the inclusion of such verbal material is actually to the article's benefit? Would it not be pointless to degrade the quality of the article to justify inclusion of a non-free image? Bus stop (talk) 14:27, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: C'mon now Bust stop, you want the image included, so you also will want to find information to benefit the article about this painting, won't you? I don't see the point of your, erm, point. Sionk (talk) 14:45, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sionk—we are writing an article. We are not writing a justification for the inclusion of a non-free image, except maybe on the article's Talk page. We can discuss this here but we don't necessarily have to include the rationale for inclusion in the article space itself. Bus stop (talk) 14:54, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The image is used to illustrate the article, therefore that is where the context/importance to AIC etc. of the painting has to be written about. Non-free images are definitely not used to illustrate something that's only talked about on the Talk page of an article. Sionk (talk) 15:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sionk—"contextual significance" is a policy concept which allows the use of non-free images under certain circumstances. But nowhere in policy language are we instructed to include text in article space in order to avail ourselves of this concept in policy. Please review actual wording in WP:NFCC#8. Policy language in WP:NFCC#8 does not explicitly say nor even implicitly suggest that we include language in article space as justification for the use of a non-free image under the concept of "contextual significance". Bus stop (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the primary content of our articles? Text. What else can you use to put the images in context than to relate it to discussion within the text? It's plainly obvious and not something you can rules-laywer over. --MASEM (t) 17:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Policy language does not require material in articles that justifies the use of non-free images because our primary purpose is article writing. As an encyclopedia we do not expend an inordinate amount of energy to write what may be lame text that may, by someone's stretch of the imagination, justify the inclusion of a non-free image. Either the non-free image is justified for inclusion or it is not justified for inclusion. We treat all images alike in article space as concerns the amount and type of of language we lavish on them. We don't add what may be junk language relating to non-free images that we would not dream of adding, relating to "free" images. That "two-tiered" system of writing about images in article space is flawed because its priorities place image justification before article-writing. Our aim is writing the article. We have a degree of editorial discretion. There are not two groups of editors—those who understand and respect WP:NONFREE and those who do not. We can discuss and reach WP:CONSENSUS on the article Talk page. But articles should not be burdened by or distorted by the distinction between non-free images and "free" images as might be included in articles. This is a use for WP:TALK pages even if WP:TALK may not articulate specifically that yet. Bus stop (talk) 18:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Masem—WP:NFCC#8 says absolutely nothing about text and yet you are saying "and if the text does not discuss the image or concepts of the image at length … then its use is inappropriate, per NFCC#8". Bus stop (talk) 19:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You're wikilawyering and not using common sense. We need "contextual significance". Our articles are text-based. Thus the only way to achieve contextual significance is by discussion in the text. --MASEM (t) 19:35, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Masem—we write articles; we don't write justifications for use of non-free images. Either their use is justified or their use is not justified. You are arguing for the inclusion of material at any cost. Priorities do not favor justification of non-free images over the writing of good articles. Bus stop (talk) 19:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The Foundation requires us to justify the exceptional use of non-free images. That overrides any other policy on en.wiki. That's why our NFC requires this and we expect justification to be given by contextual significance. If there's no context, the use is effectively decorative and can be removed, regardless of what editors may think it provides. --MASEM (t) 19:45, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Masem—please quote relevant language and provide a link. I would like to see the actual passage in writing that you are referring to. Thank you. Bus stop (talk) 19:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

text: By the way, no one is questioning "contextual significance". The point of contention was "text". Bus stop (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you're questioning "text" which that is the only obvious way to demonstrate contextual significance. But to quote the Foundation's resolution, point #3: "Such EDPs must be minimal. Their use, with limited exception, should be to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works. An EDP may not allow material where we can reasonably expect someone to upload a freely licensed file for the same purpose, such as is the case for almost all portraits of living notable individuals." Using a non-free to illustrate the types of works a museum has fails this purpose. --MASEM (t) 20:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Free replacement

message: I've raised this thread at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. Positions seems to be quite entrenched and, whatever the outcome, the conclusion will have impact on the use (or lack of) in other Visual arts articles (particularly art galleries). Sionk (talk) 08:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Parade of horribles is a logical fallacy, and if that is what is driving this discussion, it should not, nor should it be granted anything as a determining factor.  Since the discussion is live, it will not be closed but I do agree that it has reached a point that others can become involved in it, especially since so much has changed about the article and about :File:Nighthawks.jpg during most of the discussion. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I came from WP:AN/RFC to close this thread, but agree with Alanscottwalker that it is too early to close; there is on-going discussion. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 14:18, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Re premature closure or later closure please also note whatever's happening with commons file :File:Nighthawks by Edward Hopper 1942.jpg. Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:51, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Closure?

message: So from the Commons discussion, I found this, which says:
:"These publications illustrate more artworks that are now in the public domain in the United States because the artists did not file copyright renewal applications within the one-year renewal window at the end of the 28 years following the first publication. All of these artists died fewer than 70 years ago, so these artworks are potentially protected by copyright in countries that calculate copyright protection based on the life of the artist.
:*Edward Hopper, Nighthawks, 1942. From: The Art Institute of Chicago, Fifty-third Annual Exhibition of American Paintings and Sculpture. Chicago: 1942.
:*Salvador Dali, Inventions of the Monsters, 1937. From: James Thrall Soby, Salvador Dali. New York: Museum of Modern Art, 1946.
:*Ivan Albright, Heavy the Oar to Him Who is Tired, Heavy the Coat, Heavy the Sea, 1929. From: WFMT Chicago Fine Arts Guide. Chicago: November 1960."
So if this is being stated by experts in the field, I see no reason to argue anymore that this is a non-free image (it may not be a commons image due to that foreign country statement) and certainly qualifies, at minimum, as PD-US, which means it is free enough to be used without having to meet any issues. The only question is whether its universally PD (stays at Commons) or PD-US (moved to en.wiki but otherwise treated as free and outside NFC scope). But inclusion is fine. --MASEM (t) 13:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *Way to go Masem! Good find...Modernist (talk) 13:39, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: * This also means all the former uses (in the various art school-style articles) the painting can be re-included without question. --MASEM (t) 14:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thanks...Modernist (talk) 15:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Blimey, if only we'd known this before writing the above zillion words of counter argument. Thank goodness it's settled! Sionk (talk) 20:44, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: PD-US, at minimum

message: *Sionk - images have captions - read up on - WP:IDON'TLIKEIT, or can you find the MoS that says they can't...Modernist (talk) 00:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *Tedious. See Wikipedia:MOS#Captions, they should be succinct. Also, for accessibility reasons, text in images can't be read by text readers used by the visually impaired. What's the problem with putting it in the body of the article like everything else? Sionk (talk) 00:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *The caption is succinct - It's a quote with date and context. It's in the article text now, don't quite get your tedious?...Modernist (talk) 00:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

text: *Accessibility issues can be handled using alt=screen reader text, see Help:File#Using files for an example. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There was as much (if not more) about the painting in the caption as there was in the body of the article. On top of that there was a full inline citation. That doesn't strike me as succinct at all. Eccentric at least. It wouldn't be practical to repeat it as 'alt' text. I'd go as far as to say the edit was tendentious in support of the argument (above) to keep the image. Sionk (talk) 13:54, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Various Feature articles with 'tendentious' captions - many captions but not all by me - , , , , , , , and many by others like this - ...Modernist (talk) 17:09, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: We generally add article text and then some of the text goes to the caption - however early on you deleted the caption that had text in the body of the article; just saying...Modernist (talk) 17:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Image captions

message: This page has been selected by one of my students as a class project. Please be polite and constructive when editing or giving advice and be aware that the students involved in this project are learning Wikipedia along with learning research and writing skills. please assume good faith to their contributions before making changes. If you have any questions, please contact me. --MrSilva (talk) 18:28, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Class Project Page

message: I propose that major donations of art works be either listed or integrated into the history section.  For example, "a "landmark" gift" (sic) by Steve Johnson, Chicago Tribune, April 22, 2015, pp. 1 & 8 tells of the recent donation of a collection of 42 works by Warhol, Lichtenstein, Johns, Rauschenberg, Koons, Twombly and 20th century artists.  The collection came from Stefan Edlis and Gael Neeson. 64.53.191.77 (talk) 14:58, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major donations 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: https://www.yahoo.com/news/chicago-museum-fires-apos-mostly-150838189.html
The Art Institute of Chicago fired all of its trained volunteers and guides last month, who were mostly older White women, to diversify its team. 
"We were surprised, we were disappointed," Gigi Vaffis, president of the docent council, said in an interview with radio station WBEZ of the firings. "There is an army of very highly skilled docents that are willing and ready and able to continue with arts education." ....
The firings were apparently sparked by the fact that most of the docent staff was composed of older White, financially well-off women, the outlet reported. Stein said that the museum needed to take a new path "in a way that allows community members of all income levels to participate, responds to issues of class and income equity, and does not require financial flexibility." 
WOW Charliestalnaker (talk) 17:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huge race controversy. All the white women were fired for diversity. Wow. 

message: A possible topic for inclusion somewhere in this article would be the recent (successful) unionization of staff at the museum and school, as well as claims of union-busting tactics being used by management. The topic has received coverage in outlets such as the Chicago Tribune and the Chicago Sun-Times, and seems relevant in the context of the larger wave of unionization efforts at museums in recent years. For example, the article on the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston includes a paragraph on their union. Orangestwo (talk) 13:09, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unionization