Talk:Topal Osman

message: WikiProject Biography Assessment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment 

message: this info is just a bunch of bias and prejudice. Firt of all, he joined the kemalist forces after world war 1 not 2, learn how to write romanl numbers. Secondly he was a true turkish officer that is awarded an independence medal,be more respectful Memoalper 13:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have any acceptable evidence, you may cite it and add to the article. The article already cites information from a Turkish national source, so it is assumedly not debated that he killed an officer and was hunted down by his own goverment. No document, other than the cited one, has records of him in the period before that. The WWI-WWII  change was made by El Hombre de haha, and I probably should have caught it. Please do not remove references because you disagree with them, instead find new ones to add.The Myotis 14:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry but I had to revert. Zoryan Institute is scarcely a neutral or reliable source. Which Turkish national source? Dadrian isn't one, and Zoryan Institute definitely isn't, so which one? The fact that they claim to cite a TR source is also streaking on thin ice, is there such a link to the TR govt website? Baristarim 14:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The only source left, obviously. It states directly that Topal Osman killed a deputy and was, in turn killed by his own goverment. If you have credible sources on his history prior to then, please cite them. Otherwise, I will re-add Dadrian. I also might be able to find sources relating to the Pontian genocide. The Myotis 17:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are going to cite Dadrian and Zoryan, please attribute it correctly as is the usage with such controversial bios: "Dadrian claimed that X" or "According to the Zoryan Institute, Z was Y" - I am sorry but presenting their word as if it is the word of God and saying "he is infamously tied to the AG" is not correct. Nobody is saying remove the sources at this stage, but please include in who is making those claims. But, I am still not sure here, ZoryanInstitute or GreekNewsOnline are scarcely reliable or neutral third-party sources for claims as grave as these. I might simply revert altogether: Blaming a guy for two genocides on the words of GNE and ZI is a bit over the top, no? Baristarim 18:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have mentioned in my most recent edit that this is only what he has been reported of Topal, and that his responsibility for those events is disputed (I hope that is satisfactory). The Zoyan institute was only one of several sources that published the Dadrian article. I believe he has also been mentioned by Taner Akcam in one of his books, and I may cite that as well if I can find it. It is a pity that more information is not available. The Myotis 23:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite.. The lead hasn't changed, and the disputed part comes at the very end. Dadrian, Zoryan Institute, doesn't matter: There needs to be more solid third-party and neutral sources before a guy can be blamed for two genocide, not even one!! Plus the issue of proper attribution also needs to be addressed. "infamously tied to the AG" in the lead is weasel as well. According to who? On what basis? Who considers him so "tied"? I had to revert again - the question is not Taner or someone else either: there needs to be actual third-party and clear sources on what the allegations are, and they need to be properly attributed, that's all. Baristarim 19:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  First off, I would consider Taner to be a neutral source, second, if you will search up on  him, all English references directly relate to his role in one or the other Genocide. There are several PFDs that mention him in context (most which will not give you actual text unless you pay for it) such as , which mentions his role in the Greek -Turkic population exchange.  This website  gives a neutral-source seminar that describes him as being the head of a death-squad in the AG. I think that his connection to these events is relatively well-established, and I have yet to find any similarly neutral information to challenge it. The Myotis 01:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you are being unreasonable, Bar, you asked for a neutral source and I gave you one. You asked me to state it neutrally and I did. I stated that he is connected and that his connection is debatable. Clearly many Greeks believe this and I can verify it, so what is wrong with mentioning it? Any article can mention what a person believes, as long as it is presented as just an opinion. And as you can see, the article says "Even heads of death squads such as the notorious ceteba?? Topal Osman are held in high respect in recent Turkey." So your label is taking it out of context, and a missing comma hardly disqualifies a (translated) source as being NPOV. And you have yet to give a single opposing source, even a biased one. And I can’t imagine why you got protection for an article with only two editors. Why you are going to such lengths to protect such a backwater article I cannot imagine, but I need you to explain your actions and your reasoning now. The Myotis 19:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The ones who object to each source reckoning acts perpetrated by Topal Osman must bring their own sources, which display the "heroic" deeds of Topal Osman. Behemoth 08:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

message: "Ankaraduring" to "Ankara during"
DenizTC 12:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. —dgiestc 23:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  editprotected 

message: I'm surprised that this article makes no mention of Osman's involvement in the Armenian Genocide. -- Aivazovsky 14:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It did mention it, not to mention the Pontic greek one, but Baristarim started an edit war and requested protecion before leaving wikipedia. I haven't gotten around to re-adding it yet, but you will see it all in the edit logs.The Myotis 00:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Did Baris leave wikipedia? Myotis, please be reasonable and at least don't have things like 'infamously tied'. If one makes controversial/weird edits, than s/he should expect some opposition. The Greek news online website does not have any sources. The text is not actual news (which would be reliable), it is a historical text. So where did those informations come from, wikipedia, their guts? Please have better sources, this one is not reliable. Who knew that "On May 19, 1919, chief butcher Kemal himself disembarked at Samsous to begin organizing the final phase of the Pontian genocide. Assisted by his German advisers, and surrounded by his own band of killers -- monsters like Topal Osman, Refet Bey, Ismet Inonu, and Talaat Pasha -- the founder of "modern" Turkey applied himself to the destruction of the Pontian Greeks." Really, do you want to use that sentence as a reference? DenizTC 15:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, CGS source has this: "Not to be cited or quoted without permission of the auther" DenizTC 15:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know that much about the Pontian Greek Genocide, but I do know that Osman was involved in the AG. -- Aivazovsky 15:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Zoryan ref already mentions that. Aivazovsky please check the comment I put there, I will soon remove CGS ref. DenizTC 16:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see it now.  Thanks! -- Aivazovsky 17:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Aivazovsky, I checked your recent edits on this talk page now. Let me tell you that, Topal Osman is not known much in Turkey, he is certainly not 'placed among the great political leaders of Republican Turkey's early history like Atatürk and İnönü', neither is he seen as a big hero by people other than the likes of Veli Küçük of Susurluk Scandal fame. DenizTC 17:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I see.  I wasn't sure about that comment earlier so I ended up removing it.  My whole thought on that was that he shouldn't be placed among Atatürk and İnönü. -- Aivazovsky 17:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Source removed. "He is tied to the Armenian Genocide,The following reference has this: "Not to be cited or quoted without permission of the auther" Please provide the permission."Must.T  C  12:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm readding the source from the Zoryan Institute.  Only the first source (from http://www.cgs.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/) cannot be cited without permission of the author.  Fortunately, I have Taner Akçam's book, "A Shameful Act" which confirms Osman's misdeeds. -- Aivazovsky 13:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Denizz for readding the Zoryan source.  I'll add the Akçam reference shortly. -- Aivazovsky 13:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Osman and the Armenian Genocide

message: Was he fighting armed men or 'murdering' the innocent or both?Was he a national hero or an insurgent or both?--Doktor Gonzo 16:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The latter to the first question, the former to the second.The Myotis (talk) 18:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am pretty sure he fought against Armenian and Pontic Greek militias too.--Doktor Gonzo 20:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And I suppose you have NPOV sources to back that up? Or that such militias even existed? The Myotis (talk) 21:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering the amount of Turcophobia in the West, especially in the early 20th century, neutrality  of sources is irrelevant. My main source of information regarding post-WWI Turkey is Nutuk. I think it is fit to hear from the man who fought the thrust of history instead of from the people who wrote it.--Doktor Gonzo 21:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "neutrality  of sources is irrelevant".....if you believe that, then I do not think editing wikipedia is the activity for you. In any case, unless you want to change the article, and have a good source, what you consider to be the biased is irrelevant. The Myotis (talk) 22:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is very incoherent 

message: This man died on April 1, 1923 BEFORE the Republic was established!
The Republic was established on October 29, 1923.
So Topal Osman Agha CANNOT be a colonel of Republic of Turkey!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.68.210.80 (talk) 07:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  april 1, 1923 

message: "ΑΙΜΟΣΤΑΓΗΣ ΠΑΠΑΣ" Ο ΓΕΡΜΑΝΟΣ ΚΑΡΑΒΑΓΓΕΛΗΣ ΓΙΑ ΤΟΝ ΝΑΣΟ ΘΕΟΔΩΡΙΔΗ ΤΗΣ "ΑΥΓΗΣ" ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥ ΣΥΝΑΣΠΙΣΜΟΥ Οι επετειακές κραυγές που συνήθως ακούγονται και γράφονται κάθε άνοιξη για το ζήτημα της όντως απεχθούς και μαζικής εξόντωσης των Ποντίων επιτάσσουν μια ψύχραιμη προσέγγιση και αποτίμηση του ιστορικού αυτού ζητήματος. Δυστυχώς μέχρι σήμερα ουδείς ειδήμων ασχολήθηκε αντικειμενικά με την ιστορική ανάλυση της άλλης πλευράς της αλήθειας στο θέμα του ελληνισμού του Πόντου.... Η επιχειρηματολογία της εθνικιστικής μερίδας των Ποντίων, σε σχέση με αυτά που υπέφερε ο ποντιακός λαός από το 1915 έως το 1924, αναφέρεται πράγματι σε πολλές αλήθειες, ταυτόχρονα όμως δεν διστάζει να χρησιμοποιεί μισές αλήθειες, να αποκρύπτει άλλες αλήθειες και να διαδίδει πολλά ψεύδη.... Από κοινωνικής και πολιτικής σκοπιάς το πιο αναληθές κατασκεύασμα είναι η θεωρία του λεγόμενου επαναστατικού αγώνα προς «απελευθέρωση» του Πόντου από τον «τουρκικό ζυγό». Θεωρητικά ο όρος «απελευθέρωση» μπορεί να έχει αποδεκτό περιεχόμενο μόνο όταν αφορά σε μια σχετικά μεγάλη εδαφική περιοχή όπου η φίλια εθνική ομάδα αποτελεί την πληθυσμιακή πλειοψηφία.... Στην προκειμένη περίπτωση ο ελληνικός πληθυσμός των τριών νομών ή Βιλαετίων, του Πόντου αποτελούσε μια σημαντική, μια μικρή ή μια εντελώς ασήμαντη μειοψηφία. Τα επίσημα αυτά στατιστικά στοιχεία, που αφορούν στο έτος 1912, προέρχονται από τον καθηγητή του Πανεπιστημίου Αθηνών Σωτηριάδη. ...Συγκεκριμένα, στον νομό, δηλαδή στο Βιλαέτι της Τραπεζούντας οι Έλληνες ανέρχονταν μόνο στο 25,9% του συνολικού πληθυσμού, συγκεκριμένα οι Τούρκοι αριθμούσαν 957.866 άτομα ενώ οι Έλληνες ανέρχονταν μόνο σε 353.533. Το πραγματικό αντάρτικο στον Πόντο άρχισε μόλις το 1916, όταν οι Ρώσοι κατέλαβαν την πόλη της Τραπεζούντας μεταφέροντας το ρωσοτουρκικό πολεμικό μέτωπο στην περιοχή εκείνη. Οργανωτής του ελληνικού αντάρτικου ήταν ο φανατικός «στρατηγός» Καραβαγγέλης, ο οποίος ήρθε στη Σαμψούντα το 1908 ως μητροπολίτης...Μετά τη δημιουργία των ανταρτικών σωμάτων με χρήματα και πολεμοφόδια που πήρε ο μητροπολίτης από τους Ρώσους, τα εξαπέλυσε να προσβάλουν τον τουρκικό στρατό στα μετόπισθέν του, τη στιγμή κατά την οποίαν οι Τούρκοι πολεμούσαν τον ρωσικό στρατό στο μέτωπο της Τραπεζούντας....Οι αντάρτες του Πόντου συντάχθηκαν κατά τη διάρκεια του πολέμου με τα εχθρικά κατοχικά στρατεύματα της Ρωσίας, καταπολέμησαν τον στρατό του κράτους του οποίου ήταν υπήκοοι, καταπιέζοντας και σκοτώνοντας αλλόθρησκους συμπολίτες τους....Οι ταλαίπωροι αντάρτες, το πλείστον τουρκόφωνοι και αναλφάβητοι, έπεσαν στην παγίδα του αιμοσταγούς αυτού παπά χωρίς να αναλογιστούν τις συνέπειες του λεγόμενου απελευθερωτικού αγώνα, δηλαδή δεν συνειδητοποίησαν καν το τι θα απογίνονταν αυτοί μετά το τέλος του πολέμου, όταν ο μεν παπάς θα εξαφανιζόταν για να σωθεί, όπως και έγινε, αυτοί όμως θα παρέμεναν....Κάτω από την εγκληματική καθοδήγηση του Καραβαγγέλη οι χριστιανοί άρχισαν να πυκνώνουν τις τάξεις των ανταρτών χτυπώντας πισώπλατα τον τουρκικό στρατό και ληστεύοντας κυρίως τουρκικά χωριά, για να μπορέσουν να επιβιώσουν....Λόγω των πράξεων αυτών ο τουρκικός στρατός άρχισε στην περιοχή της Μπάφρας το κυνήγι εναντίον των ανταρτών, που μετεξελίχθηκε βεβαίως σε μαζική εθνοκάθαρση, απολύτως κατακριτέα αλλά και διακριτή από μια «γενοκτονία», που θα προϋπέθετε «άμεσο δόλο εξόντωσης μέχρις ενός», πράγμα αναπόδεικτο...Όμως στα ελληνικά ΜΜΕ γίνεται συνεχής αναφορά στα εγκλήματα που διέπραξαν οι Τούρκοι εναντίον των Ελλήνων στον Πόντο παρασιωπώντας συστηματικά τις εγκληματικές πράξεις των Ελλήνων ανταρτών, τις οποίες παρουσιάζει κομπάζοντας σε μια μελέτη του ο εθνικιστής Πόντιος συγγραφέας Ανθεμίδης («Επαναστατική τρομοκρατία – Αντίποινα των Ελλήνων κατά του τουρκικού πληθυσμού»)....Συνεπώς είναι ανεπίτρεπτο να ζητούμε με θορυβώδη τρόπο από την Τουρκία να καταδικάσει τα δικά της εγκλήματα, χωρίς όμως να ζητάμε συγγνώμη για παρόμοια εγκλήματα που έκανε η «δική μας» πλευρά." ---- F.Mehmet (talk) 19:02, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  please read 

message: This sentence:
*There are many literature in Greek language about Osman Ağa, who was held responsibile for most of the persecutions against Greeks, especially when they left the Black Sea region.<ref"Topal Osman olarak da bilinen ve Rumlara yapılan zulümlerin (özellikle de Karadeniz'i terk ederken) çoğundan sorumlu tutulan Osman Ağa üzerine Yunanca'da geniş bir yazın vardır.", Onur Yıldırım, Diplomasi ve Göç, İstanbul Bilgi Üniversitesi Yayınları, 2006, ISBN 97897561766720, p. 133. 
does not make sense, so I have removed it. Perhaps a translation of the reference, might clarify things. Thanks. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It was the only sentence that shows the relationship of Topal Osman with "Pontiac Greek Genocide" in this article. For now we cannot prove his participation in the "Pontiac Greek Genocide" and :Category:Greek Genocide can be removed at any time. If you can, please improve sentence as English language. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 00:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  This does not make sense. 

message: One user claims some sources are not neutral:
*Raymond Kévorkian, The Armenian Genocide: A Complete History
*Taner Akçam, From Empire to Republic: Turkish nationalism and the Armenian Genocide
But we use them as Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. I removed . If user think these sources are not reliable, the suitable place for it is Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Takabeg (talk) 00:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Topal Osman. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081206181434/http://makale.turkcebilgi.com:80/kose-yazisi-87746-toktamis-ates-topal-osman-ya-da-osman-aga.html to http://makale.turkcebilgi.com/kose-yazisi-87746-toktamis-ates-topal-osman-ya-da-osman-aga.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 19:57, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Substituted at 09:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: armenian and greek genocide... all turkish people know (especially Çepni Türks) this genocides lie. Do you have proof ? We have. Mustafa Kemalin Muhafızı Topal Osman - Ümit Doğan i cant give individual link for proofs. 
I'll tell one thing.
Pontus gangs killed muslims (or Türks) in 1919. And people couldn't do anything. Because the army is demobilized. 
One day when greek ships approach to Taşkışla, traitor rums (karadeniz greeks) glad to see. And greeks fly a big greek flag (IN OTTOMAN EMPİRE ?!??) after, Topal Osman and Osman's soldiers came. And Osman's soldiers smashed the flag. (AND DIDN'T KILL ANYONE)
78.184.134.123 (talk) 12:57, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not the forum to debate the Armenian Genocide or whatever term you use to describe its events. We go with what reliable sources state; we mention in the Armenian Genocide article Turkey's position on the matter as well has having a Armenian Genocide denial article. Please don't remove cited content. 331dot (talk) 13:03, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  vandal articles 

message: Turkish Ip address User: why have you removed my entries yesterday. What do you disagree with? That he was of Caucasian lineage? That his family converted to Islam in the past at some stage? That he worked in Pontic Greek's store as a youth?
Seemingly a Turk( you have written much on Turkish topics) you should already know of or can more easily provide sources than i can.
I am new to writng for wiki so even if i do have sources at hand i still have not learned to write it up on the page in wikilanguage.
You have said that you removed my previous entries as they were unsourced yet you have not removed the last bit of article written by someone else -regarding Ergenekon- which also says "citation needed".
This article like all articles for wiki are meant to be facts and we are not to remove them because we find them unpalatable.
If you stridently believe i have falsely mentioned information AND have not been able to corroborate my entries after sincere research,i will gladly find out where i read and sourced this material and let you know so that you can cite it appropriately for me till i learn how to do it myself. Thank you. Veritylookingfortruth (talk) 17:38, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seemingly Turkish User  unreasonably removing my entry 

message: Wikiklaas .why have you reverted my entry on Topal Osman? Who are you to determine notability of a topic? Who are you to determine whether a source is impartial or not?The sources are Turkish and /or Laz so i do not think you are a better arbiter than they are? Furthermore, much of it is from information gathered at the time so i do not think you are in a better position to argue. Are you also operating from ip address 85. Blah blah from the Netherlands who reverted my entry many times Or associated with Turkish nationalists in any way? If so, please declare your position.
I expect my entry to be put back by you as soon as possible or i shall take it further with wiki higher up than you. Regards
Veritylookingfortruth (talk) 14:06, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If you pose the same question in multiple places, than you run the risk it's answered in one place, and overlooked somewhere else. I replied to this one on my talk page already. By the way: it wasn't just me who thought your "entry" was no improvement. See the page history.  Wikiklaas  23:36, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikiklaas removing my entry on Topal Osman 

message: Hi
As you can see vandalism on this page. If we want to find any sources about what we want to write, we can absolutely find. All of resources are from Greek writers (I have to add I am from Giresun and i know noone cames here and search for it). A biased article should not be here. True or not doesnt matter. We have to see real sources. I am not supporting anyone or not defending my ancestors. Thanks. Mor Kuzgun (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genocide problem 

message: I added the neutrality problem template because there is no information about his role in World War I and the Turkish War of Independence, I think this page is made up just to show him as a bad guy who kills non-Turks just for fun, which is certainly not true.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.142.240.33 (talk) 17:05, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This article could definitely be improved, but we would need to find enough sources. I actually think it's his contribution to the genocide that could really be expanded, but if you can back it up then you could expand on his contributions during WWI. --Antondimak (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncomplete and one-sided information 

message: 1. I added new information and expanded existing information about Topal Osman Ağa's life.	
2. I deleted the Wikipedia link to İsmail Hakkı Bey, because this İsmail Hakkı is not the same person as Tekçe, who killed Topal Osman, was guard of Atatürk and died in 1975. 
3. I deleted the outdated information in the "Legacy" section. Veli Küçük was released in 2014 and Ergenekon trials were closed in 2016. 
4. I deleted information which is unsourced or is not included in the source.
--Isvind (talk) 07:51, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of my edit 

message: first of all the genocides do not exist. Stop believing in western media. Second, you are choosing information from everywhere but never been to Giresun from where he eventually was. There are a lot of people whom their grandfathers have fought with Topal Osman. The best evidence are the witnesses. So what I wanna say is. We were pulled in a war that we didn’t wanna go in to because it was not our bussines but it happened eventually. Topal Osman was a hero of Turkiye who fought for his religion and his homeland. He was killed unrightfully by mustafa kemal. Stop listening to western media who wants to mislead and control you. Western media is 99% false and 1% (maybe) true. 82.197.59.74 (talk) 12:40, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Wikipedia is not a forum. Jingiby (talk) 12:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Topal Osman