Talk:Mandell Creighton

message: right|thumb
Recently the file : (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 04:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New file [[:{{#ifexist:File:File:Mandell Creighton by Sir Hubert von Herkomer.jpg|File:File:Mandell Creighton by Sir Hubert von Herkomer.jpg|File:Mandell Creighton by Sir Hubert von Herkomer.jpg}}]] 

message: * Lead - 
** You can probably drop the "Church of England priest" bit from the lead. I'd go with "...an English historian and Church of England Bishop of Peterborough and London."
***Done – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hope this helps. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It does - thanks... – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The prose is still a bit rough, but most of the important facts seem in place, your sources are good, and the non-Brit jargon that flew in my face I've pointed out above. I'm sure Malleus will catch prose glitches, he's very very good at that. Looks pretty good! Thinking GA or FA for this one? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe; at the moment there's a giant userspace slushpile from which I'm spinning off assorted parts when they become big enough to stand alone (including my favorite article title, Metropolitan Association for Befriending Young Servants, and my favorite footnote). I'll wait and see what's left when the dust settles; what I'm hoping to do is use the one on the house as the "trunk" (buildings have the advantage of not dying), with assorted redlinks and expanded stubs as the fruit. Ideally, what will be left once all the subtopics are split off is a "social history" article similar to Noel Park. – iridescent 01:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I've flipped 180° and submitted it GAC now. Although it's unfinished, I think it's at least 80% done, and meets all the GA criteria already, even before I incorporate your additional sources. – iridescent 2 15:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lookover... 

message: Okay, Handbook of British Chronology (you can find the bibliographical details in any of the bishop FAs I've done, it's the third edition). Mandell Creighton nominated 2 March 1891 to Peterborough, consecrated 25 April 1891. translated 15 Jan 1897 to London.  He was nominated for London on 31 Dec 1896, and confirmed to London on 15 Jan 1897. The Peterborough dates are from page 265, the London dates from page 260. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Will put them in tomorrow. – iridescent 01:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: ((subst:done-t}} – iridescent 14:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Handbook dates... 

message: Probably should cover more on his impact as a historian. Did he have famous students? Did his work inspire others? A bit more on how long he was editor of EHR wouldn't be bad, did he set editorial policy? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to follow roughly the proportions of "bishop-related"/"historian related" as his DNB article (subscription required if you're outside the UK), on the grounds that their assessment of the relative importance of each is probably fair. I'll see if I can fluff it out regarding EHR (he was editor for 5 years). I'm not aware of any famous students, or at least students who cited him as an influence (I'm sure he must have had some, but nobody seems to think they're worth mentioning). He was a Rede Lecturer and a Hulsean Lecturer, which if you know academic conventions of the period are a Big Deal but would be incomprehensible to 99.9% of the population. Lytton Strachey had intended Creighton as the fifth subject of Eminent Victorians, but abandoned the section and published the book with only four biographies instead of five - I've been trying to think of ways to incorporate that but it's difficult to explain why someone not being mentioned in a book is notable. – iridescent 13:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I checked for him in Cantor's Inventing the Middle Ages but he's not mentioned. Another source you might hunt in is the EHR, they probably ran an obit. Check Transactions of the Royal Historical Society also, I'm not sure if they started publishing then or not. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  One more thing... 

message: Do we need the redlink to Louise? I've been reading wp:redlink and I can't see whether the link fulfils the criteria for being left in, or should be removed. She does have most of a paragraph to herself here ... is she independently notable and is there enough verifiable information on her to sustain her own article, or is she best left being dealt with here? And if we do need one redlink, do we really need two? Best wishes, DBaK (talk) 23:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh dear, I hadn't realized that there was a humongous FAC discussion going on: sorry. I will not hold my breath for a reply to this while the FAC process is going on. DBaK (talk) 23:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say an unqualified yes, she's a valid redlink. She was a noted historian, author and activist in her own right - see her DNB entry - and by Wikipedia's standards certainly ought to have an article. – iridescent 2 12:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks very much for that. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 23:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Louise von Glehn 

message: I am rewriting the article, making it more accurate, and using a better set of sources.  (I had earlier been writing the article on my subpage User:Fowler%26fowler/Mandell_Creighton.)  The page will necessarily be in an unfinished state (and too long for its own good) while I do this.  Please bear with me.  Whatever is of value in the previous version, will be incorporated into the article later.  The previous version itself was created in mainspace on 11 September 2008 in one major rewrite of a still earlier version, which while being poorly sourced, and perhaps only minimally paraphrased from the 1911 Britannica, was in some respects more accurate.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:52, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: Hi!  I was asked to conduct an informal peer review, and have printed the FAC and the article as of now.  I'll be responding here in a bit. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:14, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Informal Peer Review

message: :Legacy
*I don't think the Archbishop did the actual interring, although he led the service.
** :) Will fix later. 
*I am against the inclusion of longish (100w+) direct quotations unless they are absolutely crucial. This one fro Phillipa Levine doesn't seem to meet that standard; a shorter paraphrase would, I believe, be preferable.
** Agree.  It is long.  Will paraphrase later 
*"Overall, Creighton and his peers, left a heterogeneous legacy." I don't really know what this means; in any event, is it an opinion or did a source say it?
** Good point.  Will look into later.  
*"Lord Acton would use" or "Lord Acton used" ?
** I want "would use,"  but if you think it is causing confusion, please let me know.   
*"The emphasis on concreteness and reality would remain a feature of his career as a prelate." Whose opinion?
** :) Good point.  Will fix later.  
*"During his lifetime Creighton had received honorary doctorates". Delete "had"
**  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Character
*"espied" is a little twee and old-fashioned for a modern encyclopedia
**Haha.  You see I was immersed in the 1870s.  (But it was a little old fashioned even then ...)   
*I'm not altogether comfortable with the implied spectrum "radical evangelicals and conservative Anglo-Catholics". Evangelicals have usually tended towards very conservative social views. On the other hand, Anglo-catholicism has sometimes been allied to political radicalism - as I discovered when I studied ritualism in the Victorian Church of England. So maybe it's less simple than it seems.
**You are probably right.  Will have to await more reading on my part.  
*Consider swapping the order of the second and third paragraphs, to bring the article to, perhaps, a slightly more pognant conclusion.
**Nice idea.  
That's me done. I hope this has been helpful. I'll look forward to looking again, when the article is re-presented at FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 00:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

text: Thanks for taking the time (and the trouble!) to conduct such a thorough review.  I will be traveling for the next couple of months, but will try to set aside an hour or two several times a week for the article (especially the sourcing issues).  Since I won't have ready access to books, I'll be relying on the longish bibliography I've added below (which is available for limited preview on Google books).  Please feel free to add anything you think is appropriate directly to the article.  Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary break

message: I discovered that some of the pictures we thought had uncertain copyright have in fact appeared in the two volumes: , .  I will be adding more info here soon.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: #Expand lead to be more representative of article.
#Incorporate suggestions by DBaK in Legacy section.
#Look for new refs that might have appeared since October 2009.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: To do list

message: James Covert's A Victorian Marriage: Mandell and Louise Creighton is the only modern biography of Creighton.  It was published in 2000 (and has preface dated December 1999).  Although I had thought I had scoured the literature for other authors (especially ones published after 2000), I apparently hadn't.  Most (read three-quarters) modern references to Creighton are perfunctory ones which (perfunctorily) mention Acton's remark, "Power corrupts ...," and (more perfunctorily) mention Creighton as the recipient of it.  Consequently, I had to block out "Acton" in the binary search.  Here then is a list for the period 1999 to 2007.  I will add the more recent ones later.  Please feel free to add others.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: PS This is not a list generated by a computer program though it might seem like one.  :) I had to go through each reference.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: PPS I know this is an overkill, but it might be good to have the refs in one place.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: References published after publication of Covert's biography

message: ... I will be editing the article again after eight years!  I will start by changing some of the citations, lightening some of the load on Covert's book.  Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:35, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noting that ...