Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion/Apartheid/Archive3

message: My rough indication, with approximate proportions (rough estimates)
* Apartheid: Central entrance page, contains following sections:
** Definition of the term by law (20%)
** Origin/history of the term (50%)
** Derived usage in other contexts (30%)
*** Various countries
*** Other usages
* History of South Africa in the apartheid era: Proper article and name for the past tense situation, and warrants own article because of the scope and importance. No change.
* Crime of apartheid. Good page. No change.
Maybe supplemented with:
* Israeli apartheid: If and only if the amount of relevant information is sufficient to warrant a split of from the main article. Short article.
* Section on Apartheid Wall can remain where it is.
* All remaining articles with apartheid in the header get deleted and the usefull information added to the aboe articles.
Based on this posting-- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal  by [[User:KimvdLinde]] 

message: This poll was moved here inappropriately by anon .  The actual poll is still at Wikipedia talk:Central discussions/Apartheid#Poll: Rename "Israeli apartheid" article to Allegations of Israeli apartheid".  It's inappropriate to move a poll in progress, because the edit history is lost, which makes checking votes difficult.  --John Nagle 04:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Poll: Rename "Israeli apartheid" article to "Allegations of Israeli apartheid"

message: This poll was moved here inappropriately by anon .  The actual poll is still at Wikipedia talk:Central discussions/Apartheid#Poll: Rename "Apartheid outside of South Africa" article to "Allegations of apartheid outside South Africa".  It's inappropriate to move a poll in progress, because the edit history is lost, which makes checking votes difficult.  --John Nagle 04:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Poll: Rename "Apartheid outside of South Africa" article to "Allegations of apartheid outside South Africa"

message: * Resolve the Israeli apartheid -> "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" renaming issue first.  Use whatever Wikipedia dispute resolution processes are necessary to get a decision on this that will stick.  After that, regard that issue as closed. 
* Hold off on all other related renaming/moving/refactoring until that issue is decisively resolved.
* Then reevaluate whether any of the other related articles should be changed.
Once that first key decision is resolved, the rest will fall into place, and we can move forward from there. --John Nagle 02:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Support I think it is clear that they are only allegations since there has been no decisive fact finding by any authorative body.  --Ben Houston 02:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Comment The proposal and poll on Israeli apartheid -> "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" renaming has now been listed as a formal Wikipedia:Requested moves action item, with the poll at Wikipedia talk:Central discussions/Apartheid#Poll: Rename "Israeli apartheid" article to "Allegations of Israeli apartheid".  This starts the Wikipedia 5-day voting period for a proposed move that has been contested.  --John Nagle 03:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If you want to vote on the proposed move, the page for that is at Wikipedia talk:Central discussions/Apartheid#Poll: Rename "Israeli apartheid" article to "Allegations of Israeli apartheid".   Thanks. --John Nagle 02:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal  by [[User:Nagle]] 

message: * I favor a new main Apartheid article with sections on the origin with brief history of South Africa (with link to main article), a brief blurb on development of the crime of apartheid (with link to main article), and then it would briefly how the term has entered into public discourse in a non-scientific way with list of examples.
* Jayjg is against on principle the existence of the article Israeli apartheid - I see the article as legitimate since it discusses something that is talked about in various places, especially if it covers many different POVs in a neutral fashion. 
* Apartheid (disambiguation) can stay in IMO -- it would be better to list in that the various sexual apartheid, gender apartheid, religious apartheid forms -- mostly because it would be scientificially improper to try to fit them into an apartheid article more than just a brief mention in the public discourse section -- it would be OR to link them unless reputable did, right now they only share the term apartheid -- also, normally such a page would not be contentious but it is because of the Israeli apartheid that the dab is now politically charged.  Jayjg is emotional about the current topic and thus his suggestions are based more on trying to achieve a political end, not how best to cover a topic in Wikipedia -- which is unfortunate.  --Ben Houston 00:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We all know that there's a number of agendas here, so no need for self righteousness from any side. --Coroebus 17:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, but even more importantly there's no need for Ben's egregious policy violations which he has now extended to claims of Zionist conspiracies. Jayjg (talk) 11:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't mention any Zionist conspiracies, that is a mischaracterization from User:Humus sapiens intended to defame me and distract from the accurate content of what I said.  --Ben Houston 21:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal by [[User:Bhouston]]

message: I modified Jayjg's proposal to meet the requirements by Zaian and Su-Laine Yeo. 
* Apartheid is a redir to the main article: History of South Africa in the apartheid era, which has . 
* Crime of Apartheid is already a good article. 
* Allegations of apartheid consists of sections for: 
*# what's left of today's Israeli Apartheid after merge into Zionism and racism and/or Anti-Zionism, New anti-Semitism, Jewish state#Criticism, Hafrada, Israeli-occupied territories, Israeli West Bank barrier, etc. 
*# Other sections: Global apartheid, Gender apartheid, Sexual apartheid, etc. 
* Apartheid (disambiguation) contains entries for History of South Africa in the apartheid era, Crime of Apartheid, and Allegations of apartheid. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Humus, I notice that some people are voting on your second proposal but not on your first - it's not clear whether you are presenting two proposals or if the revised proposal below is not being presented instead of your first one. If it's the latter could you please clearly indicate (maybe by striking out) that this first proposal has been withdrawn? If not could you please clearly state that this first proposal is still in play?Homey 15:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ... And I notice that you voted against his first proposal twice, I presume that you tried to vote against the second proposal? Apparently, Humus's compromise is an attempt for a settlement of differences in which each side makes concessions. -- Heptor  talk 18:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake - though, if this proposal has been withdrawn then it hardly matters. Humus, can you please clarify?Homey 18:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, it wasn't withdrawn. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal  by [[User:Humus sapiens]]

message: Per request, I am spelling out a compromise. 
* Apartheid is a redir to the main article: History of South Africa in the apartheid era, which has . 
* Crime of Apartheid is already a good article. 
* Allegations of Israeli apartheid
* Allegations of apartheid consists of sections for what is today Global apartheid, Gender apartheid, Sexual apartheid, 1-paragraph summary of Allegations of Israeli apartheid, etc. 
* Apartheid (disambiguation) per WP:D. 
*Support - This would be my third choice. As I wrote above, Israeli Apartheid is an unacceptable title. It's a disgrace that it was and still is kept for this long. ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revised proposal by [[User:Humus sapiens]]

message: Agree Gatoclass 03:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Agree/Disagree with (1):

message: Please see the rationale section I've put on the Talk page.
*History of South Africa in the apartheid era 
*Crime of apartheid 
*Apartheid (disambiguation)
*Apartheid (political epithet) Discuss who uses the term "apartheid" as an analogy to South African apartheid, and what they mean by it. Discuss the history of the term and the fact that it has come to be applied to many different phenomena. Discuss who criticizes the use of the term outside of its original (South African) meaning. Include a few typical examples to illustrate use of the term, but keep very brief any discussion of whether they are valid. Merge Global apartheid Gender apartheid and Sexual apartheid into this article. I am proposing that this article be approached very differently from how it is now. See Talk for details.
*List of apartheid allegations Make this the new name of Apartheid outside of South Africa. Keep descriptions brief and link to articles that contain deeper and wider discussion.
*Systemic Discrimination in Israel and the Occupied Territories - possibly part of a new series or wikiproject on discrimination around the globe
I propose that the articles link to each other as follows:
*"Apartheid" in Wikipedia search should redirect to History of South Africa in the apartheid era as it does now.
*History of South Africa in the apartheid era should have the link to the disambiguation page as it does now.
**Apartheid (disambiguation) should include links to History of South Africa in the apartheid era Crime of apartheid, Apartheid (political epithet) and possibly Apartheid wall. 
*Apartheid (political epithet) should link to List of apartheid allegations
* "Israeli apartheid" in Wikipedia search should redirect to Systemic discrimination in Israel and the Occupied TerritoriesClayoquot 21:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, I think the Palestians have good reasons to complain. What I specifically disagreed with is the idea that the withdrawal in 2005 was apartheid.Clayoquot 01:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Disambiguation is called for because this article is about the secondary rather than the primary meaning of the term. It is consistent with Fascist (epithet). "If "Apartheid (political epithet)" was called "Apartheid (political term)" or "Modern uses of the term "apartheid" " would you still object? Regarding discrimination against people other than Palestinians in Israel, sure why not have the article include it. Clayoquot 00:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: describing the term apartheid as an "epithet" is POV and completely contradicts the fact that "apartheid" has been recognised as a crime in international law, specifically in the Rome Statute that established the International Criminal Court. Article 20 also hits on an interesting point - "systemic discrimination" can refer to discrimination against gays and lesbians, women, secular Jews, religious Jews etc not just the treatment of PalestiniansHomey 00:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "apartheid" is sometimes used in the strict sense of international law, and often in the colloquial sense of "discrimination reminiscent of South Africa." It has both formal and informal meanings. When used informally, I think it meets the definition of an epithet but I'm flexible on whether we call it that in the article title. I've given some alternatives. Clayoquot 08:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And we shouldn't dismiss the meaning under international law by putting "epithet" in the title. For all we know, for instance, "gender apartheid" may result in a case being made against offenders under international law or a petition to the ICC or ICJ may be made accusing countries that ban same-sex marriage of practicing "sexual apartheid".Homey 18:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not going to get into a discussion on the likelihood of "gender apartheid" or "sexual apartheid" being recognized in international law. I have made it clear that a) there are several different usages of the word "apartheid," one of them being an epithet, and b) I am willing to compromise by using a different term instead of "epithet." I have asked you whether using a different term would address your objection. Clayoquot 03:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal by Su-Laine ([[User:Su-laine.yeo]])

message: Apartheid, it acknowledges the difference. It belongs to the Dutch and South-African history. That the UN describes it as a crime in 2002 which is not directly related to South-Africa doesn't change the fact that apartheid is only directly related to the Dutch and South-African history. American history also has a chapter of racial segregation, what  can be called Apartheid. That other country's use the same methods as the Apartheid regime in South-Africa did, can be classified as attempts of racial segregation by the state, it can be linked to the Apartheid regime in South-Africa, as a classical example of a states racial policy gone wrong.
That the UN has broken the link of the Apartheid regime of South-Africa with the state crime of policies like Apartheid doesn't mean that the UN is right. The UN is governed by politicians.
Other suppressed groups want to use the word Apartheid to describe their situation. But because the South-African Apartheid regime is no longer in place it is not.Grim Reaper2 12:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal by [[User:Grim Reaper2]] [[Dutch]] 

message: In light of the decision of the ArbComm that discussions take place on this page, and the fact that some of the proposals above (and on the associated talk page) have been implemented, others rejected and others hanging in limbo, and the fact that new users have become interested and perhaps old ones disinterested in this subject since the arbitration began, I propose that the entire contents of this page (and the talk page) be  archived so that we may start over with new proposals and discussions.  Of course, any of the old proposals could be repeated if people still want to propose them.   6SJ7 23:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First post-arbitration proposal (by [[User:6SJ7]])