Talk:Stuyvesant High School/Archive 2

message: The phrase getting in solely on "intellectual merit" is highly elitist.    Although I went to Stuy, I knew very many individuals of intellecutal merit who did not pass this silly standardized test.  Tests only measure one form of knowledge (often an useless one). - Peter Wye
: Peter - I'm not sure if it has been changed, but I think the intent is not to degrade other forms of intellectual merit, but to emphasize that *ONLY* intellectual merit, (as measured by an admittedly imperfect test) is taken into account, rather than legacy, income, religion, or anything else. The Stuy system is a bit harsh and very arbitrary, but it's thoroughly proletarian. While lower-income students are put at a bit of a disadvantage through test prep and inadequate middle and elementary schooling, ANYONE who does well on the test is admitted. Period.
: Maybe a better phrase than "intellectual merit" would be "academic merit" or "academic accomplishment" or somesuch. - Noah Van Gilder, Stuy '02
:: I think academic merit or accomplishment is still not quite the right phrase.  Academic merit or accomplishment would seem to suggest that grades and/or academic awards are taken into consideration for admission.  The SSHSAT, according to Bronx Science, tests "skills consist of the ability to comprehend English prose, the ability to think through a verbal problem in order to reach a reasoned conclusion based on the given information, and problem-solving skills in mathematics" .  That sounds a lot like "fundamental skills", so perhaps admissions is based on the student's "fundamental skills"?  "Soundness of academic foundation"?  Hmm... --BenjaminTsai Talk 11:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intellectual merit 

message: re: the line 'John Avallone (physics teacher) is the holder of US Patent 5919182', one of the new bio teachers this year teachers holds two patents, forgot her name, it was in the first Spectator issue this year; possibly worthy of note. 24.29.130.37 01:36, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: unworthy.. holding a patent is very easy.  24.239.149.9 15:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because that's what the editors know of?  Seriously, if you've got other items to add, go ahead and do it. RossPatterson 22:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly don't think John Avallone's patent bears any relevance.  A lot of design engineers have many patents issued to themselves and their company.  Just saying...--Alphachimp 20:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I removed the note of his patent.  Nobody had made any comments, so I assume the change is OK.  Remember, a patent is not just awarded to the design engineer, it is also awarded to his company.  --Alphachimp talk 05:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't object to the removal, but I don't understand why your emphasis on "to his company" matters.  The fact that someone chooses to assign their patents to their employer (almost universal in business and universities, and generally unheard of in primary or secondary education) seems irrelevant to this issue.  So, care to explain your point? RossPatterson 12:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course.  Patents are assigned, often by contractual agreement, to the company sponsoring the research.  I'm not saying that his idea was any less novel...I'm just deflecting a little of the "ooh/ahh" John Avallone has a patent business.  Hence, although Avallone is credited as the inventor, he can't just go out and market the idea...while his company can.  That's all I'm saying.  --Alphachimp talk 14:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  faculty scholarship 

message: There is a new article in the New York Magazine in regards to sexuality at Stuyvesant. 
132.239.51.158 20:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: indeed there was.  i have no particular objection to your mentioning it if you feel like it.  however, some response to the article from Stuy should be included, as the article is almost universally acknowledged to be exaggerated in many details. Niffweed17 02:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What is the Stuy response to the Cuddle Puddle article, Niff? the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 00:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The overall response was that it was putting the group "out of proportion" (the "cuddle puddle" is less than 1% of the entire student body), the article distorted some facts to make them seem more "shocking," and that the reporter was let into the school against school policy.--Zxcvbnm 00:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Articles 

message: *Object Stuyvesant High School student body was split out of this article because Stuyvesant High School had gotten too large.  This article is still over the 30KB advisory limit, if we merge Stuyvesant High School student body back in this article will be far too large. RossPatterson 03:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree, simply because I don't see any real reason that the page needs to be merged.  It functions perfectly well as an appendage as it is. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 21:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge From Stuyvesant High School student body

message: Greetings all, Consider adding the Stuy userbox, .Regards, - the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 19:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's also another, more formal one:  -- BlastOButter42 See Hear Speak 05:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stuy Userbox 

message: I added information about Teacher Man into the Faculty Scholarship section. But since Stuyvesant is a significant topic in the book itself, this information probably makes more sense in the Pop Culture section.  See alum John Kwok's review over at Amazon for some more of the Stuy stuff in the book. Simon12 20:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  McCourt's Teacher Man 

message: Probably beating a dead horse, but I feel it's unnecessary to mention 9/11 in the intro. There's already a full section on it later on in the article, and the intro to that section is nearly identical to the paragraph in the article's intro. --Daniel Ferrantino '04 19:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed for discussion --Ferrantino 19:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, it's a dead horse, but it's worth mentioning anyway.  The intro needed beefing up when this was being considered as a Featured Article Candidate, and I decided that was a decent attention-getter.  If folks feel it's too similar to the 9/11 section further down, I'd suggest adding some factual material to that section rather than removing it from the intro.  The article was criticized for having a "memorial" section there, but I couldn't make myself thin it down. RossPatterson 20:45, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do agree that the intro needs beefing up, but in my opinion (as one of those in attendance on 9/11) keeping that paragraph in the intro makes the entire article seem more of a memorial. I wouldn't change the 9/11 section from how it currently is, though. Any more than what's currently written would probably just be unnecesary. Surely there's other information that's intro-worthy, Stuy being one of the most highly-regarded public schools in the country... Dferrantino 23:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The current FAC campaign for this article produced a complaint almost immediately that the lede should be three or four paragraphs for an article this size.  If someone doesn't step up soon and write one or two, I'm going to do it again.  I'll use my best judgement based on the content of the article, but I must admit that I did that last time too.  RossPatterson 23:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  September 11th 

message: Come vote for stuy here: Wikipedia:Good_Article_Collaboration_of_the_week - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 21:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Article Collaboration

message: Is there anything like maybe a book or some general knowladge sort of pamphlet thing on this school out there we could reference, because as I read this article, there's a whole lot of unsourced statements that I sort of thought would mean that there are general knowladge books at the bottom, but I didn't see anything. Homestarmy 21:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out The Campaign for Stuyvesant's web site (in the External links section).  It has a lot of historical info, and I believe it is well researched.  If you abosolutely must have a book, the 100 year history is now on sale there, and I'm sure Neal would take your money :-)  RossPatterson 23:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any references out there besides the internet? 

message: I've omitted this paragraph from the section:
The Standard has been criticized for not upholding journalistic standards. Critics cite the running articles based off professional articles without license or citation and running copyrighted photos without permission, although the origin of the photos are sometimes shown. In cases where an article or photo comes from the Associated Press, this is a direct violation of their usage rules. The AP explicitly prohibits unauthorized usage of their articles here. [1] The photo branch of the Associated Press also explicitly prohibits publications from using their photos without paying for their use. [2]
What "critics" cite the articles being based off other articles without citation? Citation is supposed to be used. This would be known as weasel words unless you can find a source. Who says people use pictures or articles from the associated press? This is unreferenced as well. This needs references before it can be included.--Zxcvbnm 23:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism of the Standard 

message: He did not go to Stuy, did he? He just taught there? Right now the article has him as an "alumnus". Is this right? - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 13:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed Simon12 15:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: McCourt

message: The statistics about the ethnic makeup of the school are repeated in two consecutive sections. Probably would be better to remove one of them eh? Sheep81 04:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, probably. Redundancy is better off when it doesn't exist. Aaрон Кинни (t) 18:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Racial stats

message: This section is entirely unreferenced and does not seem encyclopedic - why does a reader need to know which ethnic group hangs out by which table? I'm tempted to pull it out (and definitely will if it goes unreferenced) unless somebody can explain why this is so important that such a large section needs to be devoted to it. TheGrappler 19:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was especially surprised to find out that Asian sophmores are assigned lockers on the sixth floor! The fact is, the whole section is WP:OR and should go even if someone thinks its important. Simon12 20:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's nuked. TheGrappler 13:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i didn't create that section, but i did improve it extensively. it probably is original research, as i can't really cite anything because to my knowledge no real research has been done on the topic.  nonetheless, most of the information that was there was accurate. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 17:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clique hang-outs 

message: Hey guys, I recorded a spoken version of this article with the assumption that I would know how to pronounce all of the names. How wrong I was! If anyone can pinpoint anything I pronounced wrongly, I would really appreciate it. Sedola 12:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Terms somewhat botched include Bruce Winokur, sociobiology and Bangladesh. 162.84.149.222 21:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

text: that was me.  somehow i got logged out Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 22:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: wow, you actually listened to the whole thing.  you have an incredible amount of patience. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 18:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you so much! I'm actually working on some corrections right now. I can't believe I said "Security General"! Hopefully I'll have a revised version up in a few days. Sedola 19:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, just checking, does this mean that I actually pronounced "Stefanacci" right? I was so worried about that one :-P Sedola 22:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: And I'm done! The new file has been uploaded. It was recorded in a different place, and at a different time of day, so I hope the edits I made aren't that noticable. Thank you so much for your help! Sedola 22:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoken Version 

message: Cute, but I edited the entire section out. Sanrio's not advertising Stuy, it's the other way around. It sounds like an inside joke that's not particularly notable or relevant. Mariana 11:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cinnamoroll 

message: As cool as it would be if one of the Beastie Boys  had attended Stuyvesant, it just ain't so.  You can find lots of second- and third-hand reports on the web that say that one or more of them did and that none of them did, but I think that as a founder of the band, Mike D should get he last word: We all went to different schools — Kate [Schellenbach, original Beastie Boys drummer, later formed Luscious Jackson] was going to Stuyvesant, I was going to St. Ann's in Brooklyn Heights, Adam Yauch was going to Friends [Seminary] at that point. John Berry, who was our first guitar player — I knew him from a school called Walden on the Upper West Side.
RossPatterson 01:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beastie Boys 

message: Perhaps I'm out of line, but this line had no citation and it struck me as quite unencyclopedic: "Some teachers remark on the unusual juxtaposition of the gifted with the disabled."  It seems fairly obvious to me that it should be deleted, but since this was a featured article, I wanted to see what everyone else thought.  Thanks. Isquitenice 16:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If someone can provide a link to a teacher quoted with saying that, then it deserves to be in the article. If it is just hearsay, then it definitely does not belong. Either way, it should not be included unless there is a credible reference. -- Karma Thief 22:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disabled comment

message: Is there a userbox for current and past students of the school? Xiner 01:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, see Stuy Userbox above. RossPatterson 01:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Userbox? 

message: Congrats on the FA status. Unfortunately other students in the city  may not be as cool about it as I am. Should there be some preemptive protection of some kind on the page, or wait for a reason it to happen? Pacific Coast Highway {Gobble Gobble! • Happy Thanksgiving! • WP:NYCS} 02:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Articles on the Main Page cannot be either semi- or fully protected, and protection is not preemptive. -Fsotrain09 02:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, this article has survived vandalism in the past and it'll survive this time.  I'm seriously falling in love withAntiVandalBot! RossPatterson 02:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection? 

message: I don't understand the significance of the quote in the line: " According to Abraham Baumel, Stuyvesant principal from 1983 to 1994, "... I can tell you with certainty that the cyclotron never worked at Stuyvesant any more than it did for Ernest Lawrence, and he was awarded a Nobel Prize for his invention of the cyclotron. The Russians never succeeded in getting one to work, either".". What is this supposed to mean? That the cyclotron DID work? Obviously it worked for E O Lawrence and "the Russians" soo.... what's his point --Deglr6328 09:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that section seemed pretty random. --Fang Aili talk 14:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: it seems that the comment refers to the fact that the work of these particular students rivaled that of ernest lawrence in that similar results were obtained, reflecting to the high academic nature of the school. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 20:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't come across at all. I'm going to remove it.--Deglr6328 00:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What?

message: "Stuyvesant High School... specializes in mathematics and science". Seems a bit strange: isn't math a science? May be would be better to mention the branches of science it specializes in. --Brand спойт 10:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the article does discuss the branches of science.  however the distinction between math and science is sensible in this case because the curriculum treats math very differently from science and as its own separate entity, whether deservingly or not. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 20:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition 

message: Congrats to all editors, it shocked me today to log in and see that today's featured article was a high school (albeit a notable one), after all the consternation I see whether they should even be allowed as articles or are just vanity and such.  I hope a good deal of Stuy students helped edit this article, and made a foray into WP. Again, much congrats on a fine article Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  13:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do all front page articles get this amount of vandalism? What a waste of everone's time. I'll just say thanks to those who are keeping a close eye on the article and removing the junk as quickly as possible.Simon12 19:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All main page features articles tend to get a lot of vandalism. Fortunetely, because they're so high profile it get's referred very fast. The 0.999... article probably has the record for most junk in the talk page ever for a main page featured article tho Nil Einne 09:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured Status

message: How is the name pronounced? I'm envisioning it beginning something like "Stwee", but Dutch pronunciation is notoriously difficult.--Kchase T 21:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The school's name is pronouced "STYE-va-sunt", consistent with the way Peter Stuyvesant's name is pronounced in NYC (there are a number of "Stuyvesant somethings" in NYC).  The nickname is the then-obvious "Stye".  You can hear both in the beginning of the spoken article at :Media:En-Stuy_High_School.ogg.  I'll grant that this isn't very Dutch-sounding, but it's correct.  Now about that city in Texas that isn't pronouced "HOW-sten" ... :-) RossPatterson 23:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation