Talk:Penny Lane

message: The article currently says "McCartney and Lennon grew up in the area and they would meet at Penny Lane junction to catch a bus into the centre of the city." But I just went on the Magical Mystery Tour in Liverpool and the tour guide said that actually Harrison and McCartney took a bus line every school day for years into their school in the city centre that passed through the Penny Lane junction. The guide cited this as the potential inspiration for McCartney to write the song and why the intersection was significant in his and Harrison's lives, not because after the Beatles formed, McCartney and Lennon met there to ride into town. (In fact, I do not recall the guide mentioning that McCartney and Lennon met there often at all, although that doesn't mean it didn't happen.) Their daily bus rides would have occurred several years McCartney and Lennon officially met, since that happened right before the Beatles formed. Can we add this to the main article, or does it need verification of some sort? xgravity23 (talk) 10:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Penny Lane junction was the central location for the area. Both McCartney and Lennon would have travelled on it repeatedly from childhood. Paul B (talk) 00:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance of the intersection

message: I can only assume the "Lyrics and Music" section of the article was written by a wanker. It's utterly superfluous, subjective, and - worst of all - bafflingly useless. Any reason not to get rid of it?
:It seems confusing (especially to someone as useless at music as me) but could blossom into a useful section - I'll work on it...... Densock .. Talk(Dendodge on a public network) 12:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep it.  I am a musician and I found it an interesting read.  Careful about calling people wankers; civility is the rule here.  69.243.144.144 (talk) 08:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I find the discussion very interesting, BUT it looks like original research. If these interpretations of McCartney's motives etc. can be attributed to a reliable source, that information should be included. Otherwise, it needs to be removed. Pity, but if WP became a forum for its editors' personal music reviews there'd be no end to it. --GenericBob (talk) 23:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: With the case of The Beatles, there should be enough first hand information as to what songs are about.  To quote what people have thought about songs would bog wikipedia down.There is no indication that there is simultaneous rain, sunshine, or the coming of winter. The phrase "meanwhile back" indicates a new scene.  Lyric and chorus alternate, and to call this a kaleidascope with the intention of proving psychadelia is silly.   Second point, the phrase "nurse feels she is if she's in a play, she is anyway" is not LSD-redolent. The theme of being within one's own play is pre-LSD.     — Preceding unsigned comment added by Munshiraja (talk • contribs) 02:09, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Lyrics and Music?

message: Shouldn't this article be moved to "Penny Lane (song)" instead of just "Penny Lane" like it is?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.202.174 (talk) 18:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should Move Article 

message: The story is almost certainly untrue and is an example of Adams' famously "sick" sense of humor.  The late Mr. Adams wouldn't have hurt a fly.  Text should probably be modified to indicate that it is a joke.  69.243.144.144 (talk) 08:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Douglas Adams 

message: Sorry, but this song is definitely not baroque pop.  Baroque pop includes elements of classical music.  This has a more psychedelic theme.
FootyStavros (talk) 23:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's an interesting viewpoint, but how do you relate it to the two massive chunks of Baroque-style trumpet solo? Best wishes, DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 23:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

text: True, a piccolo trumpet is a baroque instrument, but as the the song and backing track had been written before the idea of using the piccolo trumpet, it wouldn't make the song baroque. If McCartney had decided to use a sitar at that stage it wouldn't have made it a raga.--Richhoncho (talk) 00:02, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I hate to pop up back here after months, but, as a point of fact, a piccolo trumpet is not a Baroque instrument. A Baroque trumpet is a Baroque instrument, and does not have valves; a piccolo trumpet isn't, and does: they were invented rather a long time after the end of the Baroque period. I know what you mean, and yes the picc is used to play the Baroque-style solo, but it might be important to make the distinction one day! :) Best wishes DBaK (talk) 09:42, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

text: The song is what actually exists, not some Platonic idea of the song. What exists includes the Bach-inspired trumpet solo. However what matters is the meaning of "baroque pop". Is there any meaningful defintion of "baroque pop"? The current article on the topic is feeble. Yesterday is included, even though the instrumentation clearly uses Romantic, not Baroque musical conventions. Paul B (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Hi Paul, I don't really know why I joined in this discussion, I find the "genre" thing - as it relates to "pop" music pretty meaningless at the best of times. I suppose if Pet Sounds is going to be defined as Baroque pop, then so should this song. BTW Baroque music is much more illuminating. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Baroque pop" seems to be a term used by musically illiterate journalists to cover anything that uses vaguely "classical" instrumentatation. I agree with you that these debates about pop genres are often absurd, and this is no exception, but I guess we have to go with the terminology used in the field. Paul B (talk) 10:10, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genre 

message: Is there any chance of building a consensus towards what it should actually say the genre(s) of this song is/are, or is it a lost cause? I just reverted someone, thinking that there already was a consensus, and now I am not so sure. Is it possible to agree this, or should we just let is flutter in the breeze? I must add that it doesn't worry me very much as I have a rather narrow interest in the song - it's just vaguely irritating seeing it changing from time to time in a sort of slow-motion edit war! :) Best wishes DBaK (talk) 09:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish I could help you, because it's too frustrating.  PhD's in music theory will create new "genres", anonymous IP's will come along and change them; it's a losing battle.  Probably the most unattainable goal on music pages is to come up with "genres" that everyone agrees with, and no one alters.  "When you wish upon a star..." Doc9871 (talk) 08:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genre again 

message: According to a friend of mine who lived most of his life in the area most of the places described in the song (including the barber with headshots of all his customers) actually existed in Rose Lane, which is a more-or-less parallel street in the same area. But didn't scan right... Worth investigation?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machiajelly (talk • contribs) 20:24, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know which part of South Liverpool Walton is in.  Especially as it's mostly the other side of Bootle from Liverpool.... But McCartney was from Walton2602:30A:2C4A:1CB0:21FE:C235:6109:54AA (talk) 07:13, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penny Lane or Rose Lane 

message: The original wikipedia paragraph does not quite represent what Macdonald said on p177-179 of Revolution In The Head, 1994. In case anyone wants to further edit my changes, here are relevant excerpts from p179:
However, as the film of Yellow Submarine later showed by using similar images in a psychedelic context, the song is every bit as subversively hallucinatory as Strawberry Fields. Despite its seeming innocence, there are few mor LSD-redolent phrases in The Beatles' outpu than the line (sung with an ecstatic shiver of grace-notes) in which the Nurse 'feels as if she's in a play' … and 'is anyway'.
Then, as part of a footnote:
The last Beatle to try LSD, McCartney was the first to admit to it (to a Life reporter in May 1967); consequently the usual guess is that he took the drug in early 1967. Penny Lane suggests it may have been towards the end of 1966. However, another version is that he took his first trip on the night of 21st March 1967 after Lennon has accidentally ingested LSD (mistaking the pill for something else) while recording backing vocals for Getting Better.
Guyburns (talk) 04:11, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite of Ian Macdonald paragraph 

message: Böri (talk) 08:03, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  written in 1966! 

message: It looks like Penny Lane#Personnel has been updated so that it credits John Lennon on guitar. Can anyone verify that Lennon played guitar in the song because I can't hear it. He must have been playing the guitar very softly. Also, why does it say that Paul McCartney played three pianos, Lennon played two pianos and George Martin played one piano? That's six pianos altogether. That doesn't seem possible because (and I know this is technically original research) I always associate that many pianos, guitars, basses, drum kits, et el with the Wall of Sound which I know McCartney didn't like in his songs. As far as I know, the piano used in this song (and most Beatles songs) was a 1905 Steinway Vertegrand "Mrs. Mills", which may have been double-tracked by Lennon and triple-tracked by McCartney. I can make out some instrument playing a staccato musical progression in unison with the piano(s) which may be the guitar but it's very faint, so I would like for someone else to confirm whether the guitar is really what I'm hearing. Also, how many pianos did the The Beatles have when this song was recorded?--Kevjgav (talk) 10:39, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: hi again. Further to your point at Talk:MMT regarding this song's personnel credits, I've just changed the list here to match what MacDonald actually gives – there had been some surprising (unsupported) changes. I think MacDonald could well have things slightly wrong when it comes to the more minor contributions such as percussion. With the Beatles working on 4-track, it's hard to believe that Lennon and McCartney would have played so much on the recording, and Harrison and Starr so little, as the recording was being built up. (There just weren't enough available tracks, surely, even allowing for a few reduction mixes along the way.) Anyway, those reservations aside, this is now the correct list per the source. JG66 (talk) 00:23, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Instrumentation 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "written primarily by Paul McCartney" - really? There isn't any citation for this. What's the evidence for it?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8A0:F90B:3701:D60:CFF3:108A:93EF (talk) 20:01, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Primary authorship 

message: In the Composition section it says:
 ...then switches to a Bm chord, singing the flattened third notes (on "know" with a i7 [Bm7] chord) and flattened seventh notes (on "come and go" [with a ♭VImaj7 [Gmaj7] chord]...
This is backwards as far as "third" and "seventh" - which should be switched as follows:
 ...then switches to a Bm chord, singing the flattened seventh notes (on "know" with a i7 [Bm7] chord) and flattened third notes (on "come and go" [with a ♭VImaj7 [Gmaj7] chord]...
(The flattened 7th and flattened 3rd are the notes A and D in the key of B major.)
Additionally, the very interesting and relevant G# half-diminished-seventh chord (preceding the G Maj7) is not mentioned.
2601:643:C100:2BCA:1145:90BE:1FB7:B583 (talk) 22:21, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Composition chords 

message: "Mason was paid £27 and 10shillings for his performance on the recording."
That is over £500 in today's (2018) money.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
Which isn't great, but sounds less dramatic than £27 and 10 shillings!
In those days in the UK, you could get a new Austin Mini for £600 and a new 2 bedroom house (semi-detached) for £2500.
£27 and 10 shillings sounded like quite a lot of money to UK people back in 1967 (I was there).
2601:643:C100:2BCA:1145:90BE:1FB7:B583 (talk) 22:47, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  £27 and 10 shillings 

message: I thought the entire catalogue had been sold to Michael Jackson? It seems a joint venture company was formed after Jackson's death. I have attempted to clarify. Any other suggestions welcome. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:11, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Song ownership  

message: The WLS Silver Dollar Survey lists "Penny Lane"/"Strawberry Fields Forever" on 24 February 1967 debuting at #26 with four weeks on its playlist.  Therefore the single was released in January 1967.107.185.97.165 (talk) 04:10, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Release date 

message: If anyone feels like uploading this 19-second portion of the track (from the clang of the fire bell through to the end of the solo), I'd be mighty grateful. There's easily enough 3rd-party commentary on the part right now to demonstrate its significance and justify the inclusion of a second music sample; it's widely considered to be the most important part of the arrangement. This would replace the second sample that currently appears under Main recording, because there's nothing in the way of critical commentary on the significance of that aspect of the recording (only description), and nothing to match that on Mason's solo.
I've tried to upload the sample myself but get nowhere when attempting to encode the Audacity file to Ogg Vorbis through oggenc (I'm using a Mac, not Windows). I notice most of the Beatles song samples were created back in 2002, and then a few in 2013–14 for FA purposes, so it seems the Beatles project's lost its resident sample wizz(es) ... I'll post at WP The Beatles also. Thanks, JG66 (talk) 07:02, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, , thanks so much for doing the honours. I'm over the moon (rejoicing even, on the level of Billy Preston channelling Ray Charles) because the article seemed incomplete without the sample. Truly fab. JG66 (talk) 01:57, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picc trumpet solo as music sample 

message: I do remember watching the Ed Sullivan show when the video for Penny Lane was released. Not quite 'quote' verbatim but I do remember this clearly enough.
"Ladies and gentlemen, The Beatles are not able to make a personal appearance with us here tonight but they have sent us something else. The Beatles have another first. This is the first ever PROMOTIONAL MUSIC VIDEO". 'Ed Sullivan"
I am surprised that this fact has never come up in all the books I've read about this First Ever event in the history of music videos.
Drew Weselak.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.110.106.252 (talk) 20:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, first of all, it wasn't a video, it was film and Sullivan wouldn't have used the term "music video" as no such concept existed at that time. It was referred to a promotional film and it wasn't the first. The Beatles had been providing promotional films for television for some time now, in place of actual appearances. Other bands and performers followed suit (for example Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues"). What can be considered the first "music video" or "promotional film" is up for debate since music films had been produced for some time before the Beatles for jukebox-like machines (such as Scopitone). The Beatles promotional films I believe are covered elsewhere. freshacconci (✉) 22:04, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penny Lane, video release. 

message: I had an edit reverted twice noting the link to slave trader James Penny. I think this link would be notable, at least it's prominently covered in a number of news articles about the song. However according to recent edits to the page about the lane itself, it seems Penny Lane (the street) might actually have been named after a type of soil. So I'll leave it at that!
Yaxu (talk) 19:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Either way it doesn't belong in this article about the song. All the article needs is how the song got its name, not the street. The Rolling Stones doesn't discuss the etymology of the word stone. Boston (band) doesn't discuss that the city Boston was named for Boston, Lincolnshire. I could name hundreds or thousands of examples. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Sundayclose (talk) 21:20, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  (Lack of) link to James Penny 

message: Stan Williams, a contemporary of the Beatles, has been able to identify (he believes) the "pretty nurse" mentioned in Penny Lane.
The lyrics: "Behind the shelter in the middle of a roundabout/The pretty nurse is selling poppies from a tray/And though she feels as if she's in a play/ She is anyway," refer to Stan's childhood friend Beth Davidson. Stan, who was born and raised in Liverpool and went to school with John Lennon, says: "I have a vivid memory of being on Penny Lane, for a haircut or something, and Lennon came up with his pals to talk to Beth and I. Beth was a nurse cadet and she would only have been about 12 or 13 at the time. We were all laughing and joking. She was carrying a tray, like they sold ice creams in old fashioned cinemas from, with poppies for Armistice Day. I remember the first time I heard Penny Lane. As soon as I heard the lyrics I thought 'Oh God, that's Beth'. I was, and am, absolutely certain it was her they were singing about". Stan and Beth were childhood friends and stayed in touch even after Stan moved away to go to university. Beth went on to marry Lennon's best friend from childhood, Pete Shotton. Sadly Beth died at the age of 35 leaving a son behind. David Bedford, webmaster of the British Beatles Fan Club, said: "This bit of the song has never been commented on before. It must have been John Lennon's contribution towards Penny Lane." 
Also, the line "She is anyway" was assumed by the British press (at that time - I remember) to be a reference to a British soap opera called Emergency Ward 10 which was maybe todays equivalent in popularity to EastEnders and was a drama set in a hospital. 
I feel sure there is some truth in both these assertions but they lack verifiable sources, alas (that I can find).  
I thought I'd drop it into the conversation anyway and see where it might lead. Many thanks Patthedog (talk) 17:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm intrigued as to what is your current unverifiable source. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The above information was taken from Steve Hoffman's website which is a forum and appears to originate from the Liverpool Echo. The part regarding Emergency Ward 10 is from my own memory and was, I suppose, press speculation at the time. The image though (of a nurse selling poppies from a tray and being in a play) came from somewhere but, unlike the Barber's shop or the bus shelter, has left no physical evidence behind. Unfortunately, I don't think McCartney has ever talked about it, as far as I can tell anyway, so unless someone is able to add anything Beth will have to remain anonymous (which is a shame). Many thanks Patthedog (talk) 08:38, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  The nurse in a play