Talk:Community settlement

message: The first, defining, paragraph of a "communal settlement" now reads:
::A communal settlement (Hebrew: יישוב קהילתי‎, Yishuv Kehilati) in Israel is type of cooperative community that in contrast to a kibbutz or a moshav involves no economic cooperation between the residents. Cooperation is on a societal level only; education, religious actives and public works are some issues planned based on communal decision making. Residents form a legal cooperative union that is recognised by the state as the local authority.
But this is whitewash (to use a gentle term - other people might call it hogwash). This "definition" is indeed the official definition given by officials in such towns, but on second reading, one soon realizes it actually defines nothing: In every city and town in Israel, the citizens of the town cooperate in a "societal level" in a exactly the same way described here - the town (or its elected officials) controls the schools (and especially preschool), religious activities (when the property is owned by the town), public works, public buildings and facilities, and so on. In this respect, there's nothing special about a "communal settlement". Every town in Israel also defines (via a democratic process) bylaws that residents must obide by, building codes, zoning codes, and so on - just like a communal settlement does. In fact, a communal settlement probably doesn't belong in the "cooperative settlements in Israel" category any more than an ordinary town does.
The first paragraph, to be NPOV, must explain the difference between a Yishuv Kehilati and a regular Israeli town or city, rather than give the party line definition of the term. And what is that difference?
Basically, the only significant difference between a communal settlement and a regular town or city is that the communal settlement, unlike a town or city, is allowed to choose its residents. In a communal settlement, you are not allowed to sell a house, and sometimes even rent one out, to someone unless that person gets "accepted" by the community's acceptance committee. There are hardly any laws saying what such a committee's acceptance standards should be, so various communal settlements have chosen various criteria including age (almost exclusively favoring young people), race (always favoring Jews), family status (usually favoring legally married couples with children), and creed (some places only allow observant Jews, one only allow people who practice meditation, another allows only vegeterians, and some allow only people who profess to being "Zionists"). All of this obviously doesn't happen and can't happen in a "normal" town - in a normal town you can just sell your house to anybody you we - be it a single Jew, a married Arab couple, a single mom with 7 kids, a gay couple, or an elderly Chinese investor. 
This single difference between a "communal settlement" and a "town" explains another superficial difference often seen between the two forms of settlements: Almost always, "communal settlements" are composed entirely of private houses each on its own plot of land (often, but not always, half a dunam), while most regular towns contain a mixture of such private houses (often dubbed "villas") and apartment buildings. This superficial difference is closely tied to the main difference (of the acceptance committee), to the point where it's hard to decide which is the cause, and which is the result. On one hand, absent a very centralistic government (like in the USSR or even Israel in the 50s) building large apartment buildings usually requires a  commercial enterprise. Such a commercial enterprise's goals ("sell at the highest price") doesn't sit well with a communal settlement's goal ("sell only to those who get accepted"). But perhaps more importantly, communal settlements have more often than not been started by the Jewish Agency. This organization owns huge swaths of land in Israel (most legally bought by Jewish philanthropists) and its goal is to fill as much of its land as possible with Jews. As such, it wants to create settlements which are both spread out (therefore private houses instead of apartment buildings) and housed by Jews only (hence prefering a communal settlement, which lets them prohibit non-Jews from living there).
84.111.4.103 (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Whitewash

message: I am confused by this definition, which suggests that the only thing that makes it co-operative is its exclusivity, yet discrimination is prohibited by co-operative law in other countries. Voluntary and open membership is the first of the ICA version of the Rochdale principles. Does this confuse other international readers? If so, can more explanation be added to the article. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:56, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Co-operatives are normally non-selective

message: I have reverted the WP:BOLD move of this article to the undisambiguated title Community settlement.
I agree that it is not usual practice to pre-emptively disambiguate, but this phrase of two common words is used in several other contexts, and its undisambiguated use here is likely to cause confusion.
The other uses include a pattern of ethnically-similar settlement in Australia (see Google Books search), and the British 1920s Empire Community Settlement Scheme ("empire+Community+settlement", ).  The term also seems to have some sort of generic usage in geography . --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move reverted 

message: Nishidani, some of the material you introduce is specific for settlement in the West Bank and not about the locality type and though some of the material apply, it is unclear what is what. Much of it apply only to 'Hitnahluyot' and not 'Yishuv Kehilati'
I don't have time to go through this in depth right now but Palestinian Labour Migration to Israel: Labour, Land and Occupation is a brief look refer explicitly to West Bank settlements and is irrelevant. Ashtul (talk) 20:31, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That is speculation by you. The sources are diligently quoted on those pages which specifically address the topic, and it is not up to you or me or anyone else to kibitz and question them, unless you have evidence of error from another equally viable source.Nishidani (talk) 11:43, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

text: I have just reverted your edits. Reading through the sources, some of the information doesn't apply at all to communal settlements inside Israel and talks explicitly about settlements in the West Bank. In some cases it is impossible to tell on which one they write. Please advise. Ashtul (talk) 07:56, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Look. You are inexperienced, have had immediate problems from arbitration, and coming back, without any objections from editors like myself, have jumped into a completely unintelligible revert practice. You must not remove information specifically on the topic given from high quality academic sources, whose credentials are impeccable. What you say is untrue: those three books I introduced address specifically the topic. Secondly, you removed, again, tags requesting citations for the statements. Wikipedia is designed to be reliable, and reliability requires quality sourcing.  Your behavior constrains editors like myself into reverting you when you engage in such irrational removals, i.e., you are editing in a mode that looks like it is provoking edit-warring. When people know the rules, build articles, they should not be faced with this kind of behavior by editors who do not have a grasp of how this encyclopedia functions.Nishidani (talk) 11:41, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I humbly disagree. I read through the sources and as I wrote in my revert summery, the settlement word intertwine between 'colonial' settlement and community settlement. I didn't say they are not WP:RS but they are useless in this context as the terms are mixed. Ashtul (talk) 11:49, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh fachrissake. Any text on any topic will have correlated topic words in it. I never in 8 years heard anyone state this as an excuse. I'm busy, like everyone else, and have no intention of being dragged into extensive discussions on pointless assertions.Nishidani (talk) 12:05, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Leila Farsakh, Palestinian Labour Migration to Israel: Labour, Land and Occupation source for example clearly speaks about west bank settlement. What you are saying is the we should write about pink-lady apples and MacBookPro in the same article b/c they are both 'apple'. Personally I think the term Community Settlement is not a good translation but it seems to be how it is translated all over the internet. Ashtul (talk) 13:16, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Read WP:RS and provide us with the section on which you base your judgement that the excision of texts that devote several pages to community settlements can be justified because those texts also mention other matters.Nishidani (talk) 14:26, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

text: Communal settlement as a term covers kibbutzim, moshavim, and yishuv kehilati, and any other form of collective settlement in Israel whereas, 'community settlement' in the literature I am reading refers to the last. What people wish to do with the article, its scope, should be clarified before any move.Nishidani (talk) 14:29, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the scope of this article is clearly "yishuv kehilati" (otherwise there is no point to it). Number 57 14:35, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Moshav and Kibbutz have their own articles and this article is connected to "yishuv kehilati" on Hebrew Wiki. It is also clear from the content even if the name is not super clear but is how it is referred to all over the internet. Ashtul (talk) 15:19, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some confussion 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090210051404/http://www.adalah.org:80/eng/pressreleases/pr.php?file=09_01_26 to http://www.adalah.org/eng/pressreleases/pr.php?file=09_01_26
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thread_title:  External links modified