Talk:Hans Kammler

message: Considering there is a large amount written in this article over speculation of his disappearance and death, there might as well be a discussion over it.  One paragraph was slightly rewritten by User 4.242.174.240 , but I believe the rewrite creates more confusion and is biased in favor of conspiracy theories.  I am going to revert to the old paragraph, but will paste both here for future reference or discussion.
Original Paragraph:
*In April 1945, Kammler disappeared. Some reports suggest that he was assassinated by a member of his staff, acting on orders from Himmler not to allow personnel with detailed knowledge of the rocket programme to fall into Allied hands. Others indicate that he may have been killed in action or committed suicide somewhere around Prague. The fact that his exact fate is unknown and that his body was never recovered has lead some to speculate that he continued his work in the United States after the war, where it is alleged he worked on anti-gravity and other advanced devices.
Rewrite by User 4.242.174.240:
*In April 1945, Kammler disappeared. Some reports suggest that he was assassinated by a member of his staff, acting on orders from Himmler not to allow personnel with detailed knowledge of the rocket programme to fall into Allied hands. Others indicate that he may have been killed in action or committed suicide somewhere around Prague. The facts that his exact fate is unknown, that his body was never recovered, and the many inconsistencies surrounding his disappearance has lead many to speculate that he survived. He may have continued his work in the United States after the war, as did numerous Nazi scientists including rocket scientists Walter Dornberger and Wernher von Braun, where it is alleged he worked on anti-gravity and other advanced devices.
=== Designed Gas Chambers and other laughable nonsense ===
You can't just make nonsense like this up.  I'm removing it.  Theres no source.  At all.    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.173.60 (talk) 00:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: You can't just make nonsense like this up.  I'm removing it.  Theres no source.  At all.    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.173.60 (talk) 00:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Designed Gas Chambers and other laughable nonsense 

message: Recently I tried to add as much as known on Kammler's "earthly" life and traits from open sources. Some data comes from web sites, other from Bundesarchiv references and from Nuremberg trials (yeah, Kammler was nearly forgotten during Nuremberg sessions but this does not mean that there were no documents at all. On the cache of evidence for Pohl's trial there is even a key document about him as a personality).  It is far from perfect, for example I do not cite directly Bundesarchiv due to the fact I have only small references at hand and their URLs are a mess.  Meanwhile I consider these facts should be here, even if incomplete, or else we are just eternally hanging the picture of Reich's "Mystery Man". But Hell, this guy was a high-profile mass murderer, a real "A" criminal in flesh and bones, not Superman's alter ego or Dr. Moreau of some abstract island. So let's show this guy in his own colors and deeds.
Yes, there is a aura of the Fantastic surrounding him. Yes, this guy had a big shot at the end of the war. And yes his death is a mystery in the fog of war, specially if one takes into account he is the only unaccounted Obergruppenfuhrer till now. But how and when this happened? Goebbels writes in his diary that Hitler "discovered" Kammler only after he knew about his work with the V-2. Kammler seems also to have had a personal relationship with Goering for many years. And at the end of the war, in the middle of the mess the Nazis were in, people who could just be a bit more effective were in high demand. And let's recognize that, apart of the brutality and ruthlessness, Kammler was more effective than others. No Black Suns, no Ultima Thules and no mystique here. He just got what he got thanks to the cliff the Third Reich was running into. 
And he had failures, mess-ups and unfinished deals also. We talk about V-2 and Me-262 and even more fantastic things. Why not talk about Watten Bunker, a messy mess constantly bombarded by the Allies as long the war went? Let's remember Jonastal, the tunnels to nowhere that cost a lot of lives. And how about the fact he didn't finish his job in Warsaw Ghetto? Yes he grabbed and flattened the place, however, after the tons of copper and other materials taken from there, he seem to have let its remains rot. And this was going contrary to Himmler's directives who demanded a total reconstruction of the place. 
Besides, did this guy lived always to the level of his mystique? According to some accounts he didn't even manage to feel what the Freikorps were, as his "career" there seemed to last no more than a few weeks. He once was also a "boss" for some federation of gardeners. During his early career as construction engineer he seemed busy on building police stations and minor buildings. That's quite a good number of "zero points" for the "Mistery Man" of bells and hannebus. 
One of my add-ons was scrapped as being "apocryphal". Uh-oh, the source was not even about Kammler himself, but about the place he made his last stop to nowhere! And it is not the only source referring to what happened there and then. There is a book from Oxford University referring to Kammler's staff arrival as "unwelcomed" by the locals. There is another site mentioning the fast retreat of his staff just before the Americans came. There is also another book making some references to Kammler's stay in Oberammergau. And in the same site of the "apocryphal" source, there are a few more references to Kammler, albeit less reliable. However one thing is important - all these sources are not about Kammler but talk about Garmish-Partenkirchen. Now, how "apocryphal" this can be? They are diaries fragments, letters, scraps from documents, memories from locals. Is this more apocryphal than Cook's, Farrel's or Agoston books? Do we have the right to ignore this down-to-earth apocrypha while leaving readers with "Kammler has become associated with apocryphal Nazi super weapons"? Aren't we feeding the beast here? We all know that the best way to feed mysticism is to blow the apocryphal whistle around that same mystique. 
We can consider that Oberammergau's diary as "just" apocrypha. But there is apocrypha and apocrypha. On Kammler's death we also have lots of stories, dates and places. Any logical link to anything else? Hard to find and this is being optimistic. But what happens if we return to "Kammler staff, probably with him, left Oberammergau April the 28th"? Is there a logic? Well 600 people is hard to hide, specially in a overcrowded place. Yes, we have been used to see movies with von Braun running into some lost inn in the middle of nowhere and wait for the Americans. Nothing less far from truth! Garmish-Partenkirchen was a "hospital-city" at the end of the war. And the roads from Munich to Oberammergau were deeply flooded with refugees. That was the big problem of Wermacht's garrison at Garmish, as any shootings would forcefully lead to total bloodshed. And the only solution they found, against direct orders from above, was to surrender, which they did, at the very next day Kammler's staff left Oberammergau. And which makes even harder to think where in Earth could go a convoy of 600 people. But there is something else - two spurious stories about the Kammler and his doings. The first - a group of engineers based on Vienna, responsible for several underground projects related to V-2. In the beginning of April he commanded them to join his "staff" still in Thuringia. Strange he made them make half of the way back. Even more strange that these folks later ended in the US building the bunkers for the Thor missile. The second story is related to Oberammergau itself - this was not only Kammler's "last stand". He had business there and quite a big business. Oberammergau was home not only for Willy Messerschmidt exile but for his last creation - the P.1101! The very same "Emergency Figther" for which no one but Kammler was responsible. And we easily can see how he dealt with it. There are lots of photos of GI's with the Oberammergau's "trophy". According to several sources, it was 80% complete. Quite a weird gift from the man usually painted as being utterly fanatical till his last drop of blood. 
Yes, still, there is a "secrete fatale" behind Kammler. Truly, the man managed to get to the top of all WWII mysteries. But to get even an hint about it, one should search for Dr. Kammler the pitty freikorps boy, the gardener, the police scout, the Luftwaffe constructor, the scrapper of Warsaw, the mass-murder of Auschwitz, Mittelwerk, Dora, Bergkrystall & Co. You have to look at the luck of this guy being in the right place at the right moment when it came to face the V-2, the jet production, the underground factories and unfinished megalomaniac ideas, like super-airports for the "Amerika Bomber". You have to take into account his complex personality, constantly balancing between the cliff of maniacal obsession and a cold-blooded realistic view of what was going around. In the end, he tried to make the "Bargain of the Century". Successful or not, anyway, he triggered something else. 
And this something is what makes Kammler a real "Mistery Man" behind a story. But he may have just triggered it, not being even slightly aware of the far-reaching consequences of such move. And these consequences are the "secrete fatale". Secret, because it was a real secret for decades, even when it just became a secret of Polichinelle. And fatal because, in the end, which, till today, is not "The End", it was mess, a lemonade out of the worst lemon, a constant disaster, a never-ending chain of flops, an obsession to build castles above the clouds, out of thin air. Even here, Kammler's mystique is disappointing.Verkut (talk) 10:49, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Kammler's "mystique" 

message: It is frequent to see Kammler directly or indirectly involved on "supernatural" nazi stuff. In fact, his career does run on the fringes of the fantastic, so it is obvious to see him a (anti)hero of many tales. However, no matter how hard it could be, I believe that one shall not draw his life in rosy tones, more to give a base to more gibberish than we have now. 
Yes there is something "near" science fiction with Kammler, but it is surely not flying saucers or stupid Nazis making big steps on small stuff. I think one shall give a more earthly characteristic of this guy, so I added a few paragraphs to his bio. Some are taken from interrogations of ex-subordinates right after the war and from documents signed by this subject. The March events, when Hitler gave Kammler much of Goering's powers I took from a few references but mostly from Goebbels diary. The strange events around Oberammergau are on Internet, the only question is how true they are. It shall be noted that my reference is only a snippet of those events. There are also other texts and references showing that a whole bunch of "staff" was around Oberammergau with Kammler, up to April 28th. Among this stuff of staff was probably not only von Braun and Dornberger but other luminaries of the Third Reich, like Willy Messerschmidt. It shall be noted that locals referred to several strange things with these people. Examples: the "Jesus House" had been requesited by Kammler since early February, the roads to the south were completely overcrowded by refugees and the only easy way to get out would be a west path (right into Allied hands :)))), the "Alpenfestung" seemed to have had a concrete address - Oetz, but, it seems that only silly berlinerburrocrats where sincerely interested on reaching it. Even Kammler's wife seems to have just passed by, stopping at Imst.
The "escape" to Prague via Salzburg seems rather incomprehensible as US divisions made a much better progress there and it would be really hard for Kammler to avoid a few encounters with GI's. Besides, if he had just left his stuffed staff somewhere on the road, it would be noted. People at Oberammergau and Garmish noted several columns of trucks laying over the road between these two towns. In one night they were all gone and no one nowhere seem to ever refer to something similar in the final days of WWII. How can 600 people and a lot of stuff evaporate without a trace? Specially when they were carrying such strategic material as coffee beans?..
And what concerns Dark Magicians. Kammler seemed to have had a special preference to leave them where Hell burns. His adjutant, who seemed to be the closest relation to anything mystical, blacksunlit, godly SS and Annenerbian, was left in Berlin. In the same day Kammler's stuffy staff disappeared, he shot his wife, children and himself. Why? Maybe because Kammler just forgot him? Interesting enough, because he made a lot of pains to bring even its Vienna constructors under his cover when it was already far from safe to travel.Verkut (talk) 17:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Die Glocke, flying saucers and the Moon Nazis dark magic

message: 1. People/documents claim he ordered, commanded, supervised for his engineers not to fall in enemy hands. Also, in the middle of the mystical stories of the Glocke, saucers & Co. there are claims that he ordered the shooting of several engineers.
However, there is data, frequently confirmed by documents and evidence of its time, that he ordered all its "sections" subordinates and branches to gather on Thuringia. This concerns the Pennemunde engineers, Dornberger's staff (then located at Bad-Sacha) and the Vienna office responsible for the projects on underground facilities. Later, all these people moved together to Oberammergau where also Kammler had its strategic interests.
In the end, nearly all his staff ended, safe and sound, in the hands of these very enemies, frequently with documents and nearly untouched paraphernalia.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Verkut (talk • contribs) 13:09, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictions not solved till now 

message: Linking Kammler to nazi nuclear projects is still questionable, no matter how "high" he looked at the end of the war. First - there are NO documents showing that Kammler had anything to do with the nuclear, not even on stocking uranium. Meanwhile, at different levels of detail, we may find documents on several other things Kammler had his hands on, from crematoriums to jets. Meanhwile, it is clear that Kammler didn't answer for ALL tanks, ALL airplanes or even ALL rockets, even if he not had a hand on it but was even a "plenipotentiary".
The question of Kammler being in Gmunden right after the war is rather curious. In fact he stayed near to the place where supposedly the last V-2s were to be produced. Mostly - it was the place were supposedly A-9 production should have started. Trying to hold the last jewel of the crown?
The first version of these new claims suffered a very harsh clean-up by Salmanazar. Just to make things clear - I ain't no Shakespeare or Somerset Maugham but I do my homework before writing anything. If there is a lack of evidence, usually, it's because it is hard to directly link old copies of documents, from weird databases to articles in Wikipedia. However, even if the article is badly written, this is not a base to wipe out the source, specially that wierd article in La Reppublica which presents us with the ONLY evidence that this new story may not be just another hoax. In La Reppublica there is a document number - NDD 785009. Searches of this code on Internet leads us to this: NARA DN1929. Cases and reports, claims processed by, and general records of the Property Control Branch of the U.S. Allied Commission for Austria (USACA) Section, 1945-1950.  Unfortunately, for the moment, that's all I can get. The National Archives search is worse than looking for a speedy mule in El Paso. But the fact that we numbers correlate and point to concrete documents suggest that we may have something serious here. 
Still I may sin on the fact that some statements are too personal. Well I do risk doing it here. For 2/3 of a century this "figurant", deserving a top seat at Nuremberg, has been hailed from a machiavellic demon to nearly the Darkest Master of Magick. So I make my remarks there where I feel there is a door for another mystification. For example on his "transfer" to US, which is appended with "never saw the light of the day" or "never walked a street". Ok I have read not one but hundreds of documents related to jet, rocket and other projects related to "paperclippers". Also I have seen a few tens of stories on how ex-nazis came to the US. Ok Hans Kammler deserved not to see the light of the day. But counting all stories... This episode would be something like a singularity. However the most scandalous is when someone adds "two years of interrogations" to this. For God's sake, someone still reads original documents in this world! And under such background, BS+BS is NOT 2xBS. It's BS^2! Because one thing that becomes self-evident in the first days of May 1945 is that most German experts were eager to share ANYTHING they knew with the Americans! Because they hated to the bones the Soviets, they hated the British and they were highly suspicious of the French. And if there was anyone else they were just Untermenschen ready to take revenge. Cheap revenge - cut rightful Aryan in pieces, take the scalp and hang the bones while still alive. Which would surely happen if they don't convince the Yankees to be on their side. That was the real mood then. So, "never saw the light" and over this "two years of interrogations"? Give me a break...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Verkut (talk • contribs) 14:15, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: New claims Kammler survived - problems

message: I have reverted (twice) a recent addition . The wording is unencyclopedic: Phrases such as " ridiculous in face of a few facts" and " No wonder some media outlets warn about the lack of evidence" do not belong in a neutrally worded encyclopedia. A little of this content is supported by the citation provided, but most of it is not. regardless, the source article (signed by L’Uomo dei Misteri - The Man of Mystery) cannot be construed as being a reliable source. I am posting here for further discussion. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:13, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent addition 

message: Due to this show - http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/beitrag/video/2169446/Hitlers-Geheimwaffenchef#/beitrag/video/2169446/Hitlers-Geheimwaffenchef
there could be some heavy controversy in the near future. At least we have had our deal of warring here.
Let me note:
1. NOTHING presently can link Hans Kammler to Reich's nuclear program (if even they had one). On the contrary, there is episodic evidence that nuclear matters were poorly treated in Nazi Germany specially at the end of the war. A very special mention I make here to the events surrounding Heisenberg and his family at Kochel. His "side" of the story can be seen here:
http://werner-heisenberg.unh.edu/diary.htm
There are other narratives, from people living and working at Kochel, that give quite a bleak picture of Heisenberg.
Compare this with the massive evacuations of Pennemunde and later of Nordhausen. Compare this with the attempts to keep the continuity of operations at Messerschmidt - Oberammergau, Kochel's wind tunnel or the underground factories of Mauthausen-Gusen complex. Does the the link to nuclear program seems ridiculous? Well, presently, without some good counter-evidence, IT IS ridiculous. 
As a side note, let me note Kammler's people pursued deadly rays, mostly a Sun Gun. You say "oh my"?.. Well it is "Oooh My" because some kept pursuing it after the war. This madness even evolved to some really fantastic ideas.
2. What was Kammler doing at Gmunden? Selling the "Bell" right to the last "ding-dong"? Nope, it seems things were a lot more mundane: the Americans were faced with lots of questions on the property seized at the end of the war. Kammler was just there to get the pieces together. A fragment shown on ZDF's program and a number published by a blogger at La Reppublica highly suggest this was the case. So sorry, no Bell's at the bottom of Traunsee...
3. Kammler in the US. "Didn't see the light of the day...", "Didn't walk freely a street...", "was harshly interrogated..." and at the end commited suicide. I counterclaim immediately - that's a whole bucket of high-grade manure. Only someone who did not read army reports, went through the news at 1945, cared to look at some technological developments of the time. Someone who never cared to read or listen one single memoir or historical analysis of this time, who didn't care AT ALL to put facts against narratives. Only such person would believe Kammler paid his due in the United States of America in 1947. Because it does not fit with anything we had then. The whole story looks as a "compensation prize" - "look folks, we didn't hang him at Nurenberg as it should have been, but let assure you he regretted the very day he stepped on US soil... And every day afterward down to his last breath." 
Soap poetry. Lyrics of Deja-vu. Yeah? We know Goering had also his due. And even Hitler and Goebbels... Even Himmler! Only Borman hadn't his due. Or he wouldn't be Borman. 
4. The most startling contradiction was the claim he was interrogated during two years. Why?! Most info was obtained from Kammler's people already in 1946. Very few details may have remained in secret after that. And if there were a dew things that remained "unknown" up to 1950, this was mostly due to an incident that occurred with general Dornberger at the end of 1945, which was a small problem directly related to Dornberger himself. So, two years... It is not just hard to believe.
5. Who is Don Richardson? There is a bio about him: http://www.baseballinwartime.com/player_biographies/richardson_don.htm
No doubts it's him. ZDF shows one of the pictures at the site. But looking at this bio... It sounds... Sensational isn't it? Besides, it puts us in a uneasy situation - a school dropout looking for the "Manager of Death" with a full diploma on architecture?! And this poor guy became one of those Mr. Everywhere, "Ma name's Bond"? Sounds fantastic? Yes, it does sound.
So, until someone comes out with solid documents, I would prefer to consider ZDF's program as another brick on the wall of sensationalism. Too bad such a respectable company made such badly based documentary.  Verkut (talk) 20:16, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Things that may lead to a high level of controversy in the near future

message: I thinks this is a highly important thing to understand Kammler.
1. "Small gardeners and settlers" Boss
I do agree to the removal of certain details if we get loosen sources. However, I would ask people to verify sources before accusing others of falsifying facts.
Not long ago, a link to Bundesarchiv stopped working. This lead to the removal of a fact of Kammler's early life, with some not so nice comments about the autorship. 
I checked the Bundesarchiv just now and came to the conclusion that the data is still there, in the photoarchive. The label states:
Zentralbild 1934
Kundgebung der Kleingärtner und Siedler auf dem Tempelhofer Feld, Berlin
Von links: Dr. Kammler, Führer des Reichsbundes der Kleingärtner und Kleinsiedler, Staatssekretär und Reichssiedlungskommissar [Gottfried] Feder und Oberst Stubenrauch.
On the photo, first plane, Kammler, absolutely no doubt about it. 
It looks like the only photo that comes up with a simple search on "Kammler".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Verkut (talk • contribs) 20:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. It is Kammler....see the new link I used. The Bundesarchiv link does not work in WP markup due to the use of square brackets, but it is there: http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cross-search/search/_1406734509/?search[view]=detail&search[focus]=1
I restored the section, although not sure if the source I substituted is a RS.Drow69 (talk) 15:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Kammler 

message: "In this latter capacity he oversaw the installation of more efficient cremation facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau as part of the camp's conversion to an extermination camp."
Two sources are provided. Neither validates what is said. The first source is a status memo from the official actually overseeing the installation to Kammler. The other source is a thirdhand recounting only a meeting between one of those supervising (Obersturmführer Krone) and Kammler. In the matter of the first source, its well established that the person who directly oversaw the installation was Karl Bischoff. In the other case, Krone (not Kammler) is said to complain that the cremation capacity is not high enough.
In his role, Kammler was responsible for all the construction in the camps and had knowledge of all the construction in the camps. It would be accurate to say that he was responsible for all construction related to the conversion of Auschwitz-Birkenau to extermination and more generally the construction of nearly all the extermination camps. But saying that he just oversaw cremation facilities is both inaccurate and vastly understates his actual responsiblity. 75.106.146.89 (talk) 03:20, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  questionable use of sources 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Just a thought...
In the article we can read:
"However, rather than defend the missile construction works, he immediately ordered the destruction of all the "special V-1 equipment" at the Syke storage site. What exactly this order implied is unclear."
But it seems that the order was just "Destroy V1 immediately"
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Last_trace_of_Hans_Kammler.gif
But what V1? Truly, it seems that V1 and V2 was mostly allies jargon. At least V2 was nearly always named A-4 (Aggregat-4) in german docs. Wasn't the same for V1? If so, then what V1 was Kammler referring to?
Not this V1?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_P.1101#/media/File:Post_War_P.1101_V1_airframe_.jpg
Or a copy/model of it...
Let's not forget that Kammler was directly responsible for the P.1101!
But if this was the real V1, a question rises: V1 at Berlin was ordered to be destroyed, but V1 at Obberammergau, where Kammler was in the last days of the war, became a prop for US Army personnel. How?
Verkut (talk) 15:21, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  What really is the "V1"? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:51, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: Despite the number of reports, including the official one, it appears that Kammler very likely did not commit suicide. Read the following report and/or watch the documentary: https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/heute/hans-kammler-hitlers-geheimwaffen-chef-dokumente-widerlegen-amtliche-version-100.html. Thoughts?--Obenritter (talk) 02:37, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-war whereabouts 

message: The article makes a conclusion that Kammler died in 1947 in the United States. it does this improperly by drawing a conclusion through original research.2600:1700:CA01:F20:B8D2:E504:9D0E:8920 (talk) 07:57, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been fixed. Thanks for your help.— Diannaa (talk) 16:49, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  1947 death date 

message: In the first part of the article the word "programmes" is used, programme is used in British English and the word program is used anywhere else except for Britain and New Zealand. The two words have the same meaning but the word program is more common.
I get that the writer might have been from England or New Zealand but changing this makes it easier to understand for a majority of readers. Changing the word won't have any impact on the text except for greater accessibility.
I'm only making this because I was stumped when reading this article and I don't know if I can change the word myself without being punished for unnecessary editing.
So the question is should the word be changed or should it stay the way it is? 213.136.47.103 (talk) 10:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody is going to punish you for good edits. I have changed to American English throughout. Thank you for the suggestion. — Diannaa (talk) 21:29, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Programs or Programmes? 

message: I was proposing that we should use the disappearance date in the infobox as opposed to the death date seeing as there is wide speculation over as to when exactly he died, and that there is no consensus on this topic. I wanted to first discuss it, as it may be deemed controversial and be reverted. A y d o h 8 ( t a l k ) 00:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit: I just checked and the template (Template:Infobox military person) does not include disappearance parameters unlike the standard Infobox person template. I could possibly suggest that it is added. A y d o h 8 ( t a l k ) 00:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disappearance date over death date