Talk:Brian Boru

message: There was never an "emperor" of Ireland. Please do not "sex up" history! Indeed the so-called "High King" is open to debate.
Brian Borúma was given the title Imperator Scotorum in the Book of Armagh so I would contend that it’s hardly “sexing up” the history of the man. — Viralworld
The title Emperor of the Scots descends from the Roman Influence. There was no Gaelic when the Romans first arrived in Scotia, that was the first given name to the land, the people known as Scotti or (Scots) in Saxon.
To the Irish at that time, there was many kings, not just one and the title of emperor coming from the Romans applies to the ruler of all kings. More study is required by the ^^^ first poster.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.104.231.204 (talk) 14:41, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The user from 66.185.85.80 who revised the page had his edits for Niall of the Nine Hostages revoked and the page marked with a possible copyright violation.  The same web site with Niall of the Nine Hostages information seems to have been mined for this article.  I don't know what the status of the copyright is, but I'm reverting to the old version of this page until this all gets cleared up. --Ruy Lopez 10:02, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  66.185.85.80 

message: I've made a start on cleaning up and wiki-fying/reformatting the article. The prose is rather thick, with some great Irish-isms "to be sure", which I've left in :). Some of the sentence structures were odd and I've fixed these. I've removed some of the stuff that was in parentheses as these bits really need to be put into different articles, and merged some stuff that was duplicated. I'm still not sure if the whole "History" section really belongs in this article at all. There is quite a bit of original research I suspect, but I'm not quite comfortable enough to remove it yet. I'd love to get some feedback. - FrancisTyers 23:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, done a bit more tweaking, apologies for the "dramatic" subheadings, I'd gladly remove them, but I think they at least break up the piece a little (which sorely needs doing) and so they'll do for now. Its looking much more like a WP article now. Could do with sorting out some of the links, i'm sure some of them point to disambig pages. Also could probably do with some pictures, obviously a photo is out of the question, but perhaps a map of ireland in the history section showing exactly where he was fighting? Anyway thats all for now, comments welcome. - FrancisTyers 01:48, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I started in, just for the sake of organisation (the subheading Royal Ascent was my first effort); then I read popular image, and after that history - which does have its place, but not there - and felt lost. See you later.shtove 22:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for taking a look. Its a difficult one to clean up and I'd be glad of any help ;) If you think I've done something wrong please correct it, but if you look at my attempted cleanup , I hope you think most of it has been appropriate and that the article is at least in some way an improvement. If not, please do what you will :) - FrancisTyers 00:38, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, if someone could verify dates for his life that would be great.  I mention this because it says at the top of the page that he was probably born around 926 but later in the history section it says that he became King at 35 when his brother died in something like 976. Thanks!
I've removed the disputed tag as I don't think there is any real dispute on here at the moment. We simply have to find a reputable source and add Brian's date of birth, if known.--File Éireann 20:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The common practice in this case is to edit the page, cut the text and paste it onto the talk page with an explanation of why you have done this. You can refer to WP:CITE. - FrancisTyers 10:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the point of the popular image section is indeed to refute Brian Boru's popular image as a leader of the Gaelic resistance against the Vikings. A lot of what is mentioned therein seems to make perfect sense, except for the fact that references are needed. I wouldnt suggest removing it, however, but perhaps adding some sort of appropriate tag. Furthermore, it probably requires some editing. While it is likely true that Vikings were largely integrated into the Irish political scene, it is unlikely that antagonism between the Gaels and Norse didnt play at least *some* part in Boru's campaigns. Unfortunately, I really dont feel confident enough to medle in what seems like a reasonably good article. Druworos 11:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: What's this I hear about the british queen mother being a descendant of Brian Boru? Superdude99 20:08, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Queen mother

message: I just noted the possibility he was born in 926 in the article. I originally learned of this from the French Larousse Encyclopedic Dictionary, ed 1964 ... When I later saw all sources quoting 941, I thought it was a mistake on Larousse's part, or maybe science had evolved since... but I just saw in again on answers.com, meaning there's a set of sources still clinging to 926... if anybody can get definitive data on the matter, I'd like to see all this cleaned up. --Svartalf 19:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of Birth

message: Some days ago, somebody removed the sections about trivia and modern culture references to Brian. I've reinstated them until discussion can take place to see just why they should be removed in the first place. Granted, the bits gathered there are trivial, but they show that King Brian is not forgotten. Also, the fact that the harp kept at Trinity College is generally named after him, or the existence of a piece of music bearing his name are worth mentioning, all the more so as there are no specific articles on them. The Brian Boru Harp is subsumed in the emblems of Ireland, and while the March is famous and well known, I don't know if enough is known about it to make an independent article, I sure could not even wring a stub's worth out of what I know without going into baseless conjectures. So mentioning the piece under the eponym seems the best solution. --Svartalf 02:18, 18 October 2006  
MYname is brian mattix and I really am intested in this you should look at this I was so into this you really need to look at this I am still looking at this--75.121.203.104 (talk) 17:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Remembrance in modern times

message: I would like it noted that the burgeoning victories of Brian Boru against the Norse Vikings in the late 10th century are simultaneous with the burgeoning victories of Aelfred the Great of Wessex against the Norse Vikings in the late 10th century.  That is, in the years leading up to 1000 CE, both the Christian Irish and the Christian Anglo-Saxons began emerging from Norse Viking subjugation.  I believe it is obvious that there is at least indirect relation here — at the minimum, by 1000 CE, the Vikings were in decline and the long suppressed Celtic-Christian kingdoms of Ireland and England began re-emerging.  But I also believe it is possible that there was some direct relation between Brian Boru and his contemporary colleague, and de facto ally, Aelfred the Great of Wessex. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.235.44.73 (talk • contribs).
:Alfred the Great died in 899. For most of his reign the "High King of Ireland" was Flann Sinna. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 15:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alfred the Great

message: That section is written so as to suggest that the presence of the Norse in Ireland at the time of Brian Boru was equivalent to that of English footballers on holiday - rowdy tourists with knives or swords.  However given that the Norse had already conquered significant areas of England, Scotland, France and Russia it seems incongruous and less than credible to imply that they had no comparable penetration of Ireland.
::If you check any of these articles by Donnchadh Ó Corrain you will see support from a significant Irish historian for the view that the Norse indeed never did succeed in conquering Ireland. 
::* "Viking Ireland — Afterthoughts" - http://www.ucc.ie/celt/Viking%20Ireland%20Afterthoughts.pdf
::* "Vikings in Ireland and Scotland. in the Ninth Century" - http://www.ucc.ie/celt/Vikings%20in%20Scotland%20and%20Ireland.pdf
::* "THE VIKINGS & IRELAND" - http://www.ucc.ie/celt/General%20Vikings%20in%20Ireland.pdf
::Further, that "the Norse had already conquered significant areas of England, Scotland, France and Russia" is quite an exaggeration I'm afraid. Finnrind 17:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Section "Historical View" unhistorical

message: New too this Wiki thing but i read in the paper a couple of month ago that a film was to be made about Brian Boru's life or the battle of Clontarf, cant remember which. Does anyone think this should be included in the popular culture or even Trivia section? Dont know enough about the film to write it, dont even think filiming started yet, but should it make a mention?? James153.96.50.65 09:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, welcome to Wikipedia, James! If the film's pretty well certain to go ahead and it's expected to be a major film, then yes, there should definitely be a mention in the "In Popular Culture" section. And if you can find out about it, it would certainly be helpful. The only thing to be concerned about is whether the film is going to happen, because as you may know sometimes films are proposed (and even half-made) but never actually arrive. I'm pointing this out because there's a policy on Wikipedia that future events should only be included if they are almost certain to go ahead - see WP:CRYSTAL. Cheers, A bit iffy 10:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been having second thoughts... That WP:Crystal policy really concerns articles about future events, and doesn't really concern a sentence or two within an article. However, we obviously shouldn't have pure speculation within any article (this is an encyclopaedia, after all). I have done some Googling on Brian Boru films and I see there are many suggestions that Sean Penn will be making a film on Boru. If you or anyone can find something a bit firmer about this, then perhaps it's still worth mentioning. --A bit iffy 11:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References in popular culture

message: The following is unsourced information:
* The term the Brian Boru is also used to refer to the Brian Boru harp, the national symbol of the Republic of Ireland which appears on the back of Irish euro currency. made between the 14th and 15th centuries, the harp also appears on the Leinster flag. A similar harp features in the trade mark of Guinness.
* The Spire of Dublin was very nearly named the Brian Boru Spire.
* A major motion picture film surrounding the life of Brian Boru is scheduled to be filmed in 2008 and released in 2009. The film will be entirely shot in Ireland and directed by Cork native Mark Mahon, from an award-winning script he wrote called, "Freedom Within the Heart". American actor, Leonardo DiCaprio is attached to play Brian Boru.
* Three Floyds Brewing Co. makes a beer named Brian Boru Old Irish Red.
While this is interesting, we can't use it unless you provide a source. Also, none of this is really trivia, as trivia by its definition is "unimportant information" - it therefore shouldn't be in a trivia section but instead the information should be incorporated into the main article. - Tbsdy lives (talk) 10:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the article lacks inline citations.  You're right, this is not trivia, but the Star Trek BS  and bands nobody has ever heard of that you left in the article is.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 13:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced material 

message: The lead now says (, ) - I don't speak Gaelic, but is Ború really the more usuallly used Gaelic name? And why is this spelling of the name in bold? Finn Rindahl (talk) 16:51, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In my experience - yes.  In fact, I've never encountered the two other Irish forms in common use, whereas the 'Ború' form is quite common in business names, etc.  It's in bold because it's in the lead sentence. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:43, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't we distinguish Modern and Middle Irish? Something like: Brian mac Cennétig called Brian Boru (Middle Irish: ; Modern Irish: )...? I don't follow you at all on the bolding. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 18:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article title is 'Brian Boru', so it's first occurrence within the article should be bolded, shouldn't it (with or without the fada)?  Just to note, to my mind, 'Brian Ború' is the modern Irish. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Err, the first occurrence in the text is presently here  - so that's the one that should be bolded following Bastuns rationale (would still look a bit strange, but I will not oppose it :). Distinguishing between variuos form of Irish/Gaelic would be helpful to non-gaelic speakers like myself (and most others). A different point: is it really necessary to list both Brian Bóruma and Brian Bórumha - I expect the first is Irish as well? Finn Rindahl (talk) 21:35, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, you're right on the bolding.  Will change it now. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 00:11, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ború" is not Irish. It's the anglicised form spelt phonetically with a síneadh fada.Murchadh (talk) 22:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  ...or more usually Brian Ború 

message: Just seen this in the article and it makes me laugh everytime i see it. Did the Irish assimilate the Vikings or did the Vikings assimilate themselves into Irish culture? I'd say it was the conscious choice of the Vikings and not from any pressure from the Irish. The Vikings wherever they went assimilated with the local populations - in Scotland, England, the Western Isles, Normandy, Kiev and Constantinople. The off-shoot of the Vikings, the Normans where exactly the same. The Irish didn't assimilate them, they made themselves "more Irish than the Irish themselves" just like they did in southern Italy where they became just as "Italian as the Italians themselves".Mabuska (talk) 23:18, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You might enjoy the career of the Cotter family, the only family of Norse origin in Ireland to retain a small amount of their original identity into modern times, because they lived in a fairly remote region and apparently retained some wealth and foreign connections, and most importantly some noble stature. The rest, except in one or two partial cases, eventually left or fell under. The Cotters claim to be descendants of, but are in any case clearly related to, one of the last Kings of Dublin, namely Óttar of Dublin. They are also, incidentally, probably unrelated, except through the inevitable intermarriage, to the Uí Ímair with whom Brian and his family were dealing. DinDraithou (talk) 19:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Irish assimilated the Vikings? 

message: It would be interesting to know if Collins says more about this Morough (Murchad) O'Brien. If he was Brians son his name, even when anglisized, should be mac Brian. Is it possible that this is Brians (and Gormflaiths) grandson Murchad mac Donnchad Ua Briain (d.1068)? All other sources I remember seeing ahs Mór as the mother og Brians son Murchad. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 12:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two possible explanations.  First, as you imply, it may be the grandson.  I will check whether the dates (some of which are not listed and one of which is wrong) support the grandson hypothesis.  Second, the author may be English rather than Scottish or Irish and so not know what the rules for Gaelic names are.  Robert McClenon (talk) 19:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the reference to Collins.  He listed the date of death of Brian Boru as Good Friday, 1039.  Since the battle is well recorded to have been Irish Good Friday, 1014, I have concluded that he is not a reliable source.    Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Morough O Brien 

message: A question was asked in 2006 whether the late Queen Mother Elizabeth was descended from Brien Boru.  The answer is "probably", due to the family tree paradox.  The paradox is that as time goes back, the number of ancestors increases, but the population of the world or the region decreases.  As a result, if one goes back a thousand years, it is highly probable that any person with ancestry in a given region is descended from any person in that region who had descendants.  It is probable that a twentieth-century Scottish noblewoman with a well-documented family tree would be able to trace descent from a late historical High King of Ireland.  Robert McClenon (talk) 19:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Detail: you will loose ancestors when already related people marry each other. That loss can be quite significant, especially among nobility. The Banner talk 20:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You will always lose ancestors at some point due to intermarriage.  It is true that it is more common among nobility.  However, Brian Boru is 31 generations back, and 31 generations back, the calculated number of ancestors is 2,147,483,648, but the population of the world was less than one billion.  Therefore there will always have been intermarriages.  It is correct that if nobility marry other nobility, there are only thousands or tens of thousands of nobility, and that tree collapses sooner.  As a result of the tree paradox, if someone had ancestors, then anyone from that region of the world will probably be descended from them.  Nearly everyone in the British Isles will be descended from Brian Boru.    Robert McClenon (talk) 21:40, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Question about Queen Mother Elizabeth 

message: "Brian's first wife was Mór, daughter of the king of Uí Fiachrach Aidne of Connacht. She is said to have been the mother of his sons Murchad, Conchobar and Flann. Later genealogies claimed that these sons left no descendants, although in fact Murchad's son Tadc is recorded as being killed at Clontarf along with his father and grandfather.[12]
Echrad daughter of the king of Uí Áeda Odba, an obscure branch of the southern Uí Néill, was the mother of Tadc, whose son Toirdelbach and grandson Muirchertach rivalled Brian in power and fame.[13]"
The first paragraph indicates that Tadc was a son of Murchad (grandson of Brian Boru); the second indicates he was the son of Brian Boru by Echrad.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.47.198 (talk) 15:10, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: They appear to be different men with the same name. The first you noted is Tadc, son of Murchad, son of Brian (or in Gaelic Tadc mac Murchada meic Briain). The second is Tadc son of Briain (Tadc mac Briain). I've changed the second sentence to make this clearer ("...was the mother of Brian's son Tadc, whose son Toirdelbach..."). How's that?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:22, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency re Tadc's parentage 

message: While reading through the 'Battle of Clontarf' section of this article I found this sentence to be quite funny:
"All of the accounts state that the Battle of Clontarf lasted all day. This may be an exaggeration, or it may suggest a long-drawn-out fight."
Quite! Can I suggest that if someone were to edit it to say "All of the accounts state that the Battle of Clontarf lasted all day. This may be an exaggeration, or it may suggest that the Battle of Clontarf lasted all day" it would be even funnier? Thanks. - DropShadow (talk) 12:43, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: While it is funny, it appears to be WP:OR since it is speculation on the part of the editor, and not from any reliable published source. Lizard (talk) 15:50, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appreciation! 

message: is this the same name? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 20:01, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that'd be a valid alternate spelling of Brian Bóruma (though the fada slants up, not down). BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:03, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Brian Bòruimhe" ? 

message: On multiple wiki pages referring to Ireland, I have seen edits which are clearly created by racist Irish supremacists or immature children.
On this page, for example, someone keeps changing that translation of 
Imperator Scottorum and stating it means Emporer of the Irish.
Unless Brian Boru time travelled then this is as ridiculous as the concept of time travel. Pre the 1800s there was no such name/ title as Ireland or the Irish, Scottorum does not even come close to translating into Irish.
If the editors had any level of education on Irish history, they would know that Ireland had no written language pre-roman influence and no historical records.
Latin predominantly led to the creation of Gaelic and the Gaels were all called Scoti by the Romans, there is NO evidence showing the ancient Scoti or Irish called themselves Irish, this falsehood had been edited out for historical accuracy.
See wiki pages - Scoti & Scotia,
Both have factual references with sources.
Ancient Roman, Greek and medieval Irish and Scottish records refer to Ireland as Scotia (before, during and after) the life of Brian Boru.
Brian Boru was not saying he was the Emporer of the Scottish people that would be ridiculous, he was stating he was the Emporer of the Gaelic people, this is as simple as history defines it.
Imperator Scottorum - Emporer of the Scots, the Scots being a roman Latin name for the Gaels.
Wiki admins truly need to align wiki pages and sources for historical accuracy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.234.146 (talk) 10:20, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted your vandalism. The Banner talk 10:26, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

text: It would be a good idea when you start reading the article Gaels and acknowledge that the designation of the Romans is a few hundred years before Brian Boru. It still does not make Brian Boru a Scot. The Banner talk 10:53, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

text: It is clear that your are just showing your Scottish POV here. The Banner talk 11:16, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

text: Your link to Scotia only proves the fact that your are wrong in assigning the term "Scot" to Brian Boru. For your information: Boru lived around the year 1000, the Romans mentioned the name Scoti around 300-500. With the name shifting to present Scotland around 900. The Banner talk 12:47, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

text: Do you have any reliable evidence for your claims? The Banner talk 16:31, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationalism and racial supremacy. 

message: I cannot be bothered to check any more of the references added in this disputed edit by  that has been repeatedly reverted by , since after checking this one my mind is made up that it will be a waste of time. The book was already cited for the sentence , there is no dispute it references the latter part of that sentence. The following passages were added.
* here
* here
* here
None of those additions can be referenced to page 128 of 1001 Battles That Changed the Course of History, as anyone looking on Google Books will be able to see. FDW777 (talk) 12:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I kept reverting edits based on fake sources or without sourcing at all, restored verbatim time and time again. The Banner talk 15:48, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

text: And I have removed some info based on fake sources. Stop this! The Banner talk 18:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

text: It is not enough to link to a website, book or library catalog, you have to link to the information that backs up your text. The Banner talk 10:04, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

text: Your last edit is again lacking the correct source info. Do not just give a link, give a link to the information that supports your text, including page numbers. The Banner talk 10:52, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  1001 Battles That Changed the Course of History 

message: Would anyone be supportive or interested in creating a sort-of legacy section? Mainly detailing his successors in Munster, specifically his descendants in the O'Brien Dynasty, some information about the state of Viking power in Ireland afterwards, and maybe incorporating the historical view section which is already present in the article. Basically, Brian's impact on the political landscape in Ireland following his death. Iamdmonah (talk) 13:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Something like Dalcassians? The Banner talk 13:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath/Legacy section