Talk:Kurds/Archive 7

message: The article about kurds religion is totally POV except to the fact, that nearly all kurds are moslems. The religios founder of the yazdanism was an arab named Sheik Adi. The Yazdanism was founded 1090 (AD). It is definitly not the "indigenous religion" of the kurds. Yazdanism is a new religion in the middle east and a mixture of many older religions, including the Islam. --MichaGreen 03:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most kurds may officially be moslems. This does however not at all reflect the true beliefs, which are not an easy task to get hold of. I have added prof. Mehrdad R. Izady's, The Kurds A Concise Handbook to the ref list of the Yazdanism article. Read it and consider how taqqiyya may have influenced your misconceptions. ): Kurtan 08:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Yazdanism]]

message: The Person who made this article wants to make Kurds look the least religous as he/she can, but this will never happen if im alive. I am the one that always changes it, and sense you dont accept my changes, i will just always delete the religon section from this article.
:::What is your problem, the text was quite normal, since here we cannot preach neither Islam nor atheism. Your lack of tolerance is inappropriate, this is not a battlefield. If you have any neutral sources supporting your claims then provide it. Asina 23:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep calm and take aside your indignation. The article already says muslims are in majority. Dont vandalize the page anymore. Asina 00:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let him delete the religion section. Go ahead and delete it. Jalalarbil 00:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Islam

message: After fall of Baghdad in 2003, or more exactly one and half a year ago Bashar Asad in a TV interview recognized the Kurdish ethnicity in Syria and said Kurds are part of Syrian social structure. This lead to official recogniztion of Kurdish comunity in Syria as Kurds; being the second alongside Arabs. I think this was an important development for Kurds in Syria. This is not mentioned in the article. The other important issue of those 300,000 who were deprived of citizenship and later were promised to recognize them in recent months has already discussed in the article. Other important issue of Kurds in syria which are not discussed are the 1945 rasing, the 1960s massacres by the government. 66.79.163.189 16:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kurds in syria

message: Do Kurds in Iran face difficulty in relation to their cultural and traditional issues? I dont think so. Any body claiming that at least should provide one reliable source. Cities like Mehabad, Sine (Sanandaj) and Urme are considerable centers of Kurdish culture and press. Jalalarbil 17:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kurds in Iran

message: There are already material on Kurds living in those countries where in they have historically done, but for Kurds in diaspora because the number of those countries in which Kurds have been scattered in is too much, please include them in this already existing article: Kurdish diaspora. Beriwan 13:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kurds in diaspora

message: Is it true that Kurish nationalist parties are enthuastic towards de-islamization of Kurds?
Is it true that PKK is encouraging its members to convert from Islam to either Zoroastrianism or Christianity? I heard that PKK says that Zoroastrianism is what the Kurds should actually practice.
Thats the biggest load of bull Ive heard in a long time. If you have any credible resources to back that up, please post them.
Kurds are not doing de-Islamization. There are still some strict Kurds, but some Kurds are moving towards some more secular ideals. But I have yet to read anything that you are suggesting. MercZ 04:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In Kurdistan Autonomous region of northern Iraq, many people regard to islamism as baathism, and there is a growing secularization movement among them. Although there have been some tiny numbers of converting to Christianity in recent years but the main stream is towards secularism. This is also true about Kurds in three neighbouring countries of Iraq, Iran and Syria. (except in turkey where people -both turks and Kurds- are more enthuiastic about Islam and Islamic Issues because of its own reasons). In Kurdistan the major Kurdish parties are not islamist. for example while Kurdish nationalist alliance gaind about 55 seat the united islamic Kurdish front (a tine but main Kurdish islamist party) only gained 5 seats. Even a few mounths ago when this small islamist Kurdish party flow the Kurdish flag over its bureau in a most islamic region of Iraqi Kurdistan (Badinan) people protested, attacked them, killed and injured numbers of its members saying either be muslim or be Kurd, as islamist you have not the right to flow Kurdish flag. The current and widely used propaganda of converting muslim Kurds to Christianity by KRG is by this tiny islamic group which are opponents to the Kurdish alliance. Wirya 23:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: No Islam!

message: How come no mention of how there were Kurdish people and Persian people in Church of East one time before Islam.شيطان
::There are many Kurds who are communist but communism is not a religion. the section about religion in the article already mentions that there are Kurds who are Agnosticists. But due to long historical background of Kurds practising christianity, this needs at least a small explanation in the article. I will fix that. Wirya 14:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Christian, or Communist Kurds? 

message: Hi!
Can someone tell me, how Aramaic can be consider a/the language of the ]]Kurdish people]]? Neither is Arabic, Turkish or Persian. Although they are spoken by many Kurds as FOREIGN LANGUAGES, they can no way be regarded as the languages of the Kurds. (Ferhengvan)
:Kurdish Jews and Kurdish Christians have spoken Aramaic as their mothher tongue and they consider themselves as Kurds (as well as by Kurds). But since this has been a historical fact and not a recently foreign language this is considered as [a native language of Kurds]. Wirya 14:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Aramaic?!

message: I was just wondering, not suggesting just, interested in finding out from people more informed than I... Elam was a civilisation in the Zagros mountains, a homeland of the Kurds, right? So what happened to the Elamites? Why are they not listed as ancestors of the Kurds? They did not disappear, Kurds did not replace them. I am confused by this and many other things when it comes to ancient peoples and modern peoples such as the Kurds. Consider the Minoans and the Greeks. If they are considered part of Greek culture/history, then surely Elam is a part of Kurdish culture/history. Other groups make a great fuss over their history and ancestory, so why not with the Kurds.
:: As far as I know Elamite main center was in Susa and parts of Pars province and Luristan.  Also linguistically Elamites spoke either an isolate language or as some other scholars have proposed: Elamo-Dravidian.  So their language and history is not related to any people in the region.  --Ali doostzadeh 02:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Elam?

message: Historically, Kurds have repeatedly tried to become independent. They have fought the Sumerians, Assyrians, Persians, Mongols, European crusaders, and Turks. 
the arguments of an entity in sumerian times having a link to this modern ethnic 
classification grouped soley on the basis of a language of the Iranian subgroup of 
Indoeuropean ...and that if they fought some neighbouring tribe or people it being 
the same struggle as lets say that of a minority with an 20 centuary opressive 
dictatorship is just cut and paste to suite some fantasy of an everlasting history
of heroic otherness
and then the kurd and jews to suggest that ya in the same vein as the diaspora this
lost brothers too have had it tough ...the samples are limited for conclusion in 
encyclopedia article and that too placing it above the kurdish & Iranian link 
where the study used only three non jewish groups none of them apart from the kurds 
belonged to west Iranian ethnic groups ... ok the samples should contain the Lors 
and Laks and some Azeris, plus for any conclusion to these should be added some 
armenians and then hail all as the confusion of similarity will silence any unique 
conclusion  
as if the people inhabiting the claimed mountainous regions never in their history formed 
an integral part of a larger entity and always wanted to be distinct this is not verified
in the manner which it is presented and therefore I am taking it out ...
if so why did Salladin fight for an arab empire ....and why so many ancient kingdoms of 
Iran had essentialy kings and emperors hailing from that very region and carduchi and all 
are fringe offshoots of sporadic rebellion through ages ...one can argue that Sassanids 
were more Kurdish (West Iranian language speakers) or that azeri speakers are more 
closely linked with Shaddadid
why not say that syrians are Carduchi who have in time adopted arabic ....
why not mention much of the area mentioned was inhabited by armenians and assyrian christians  who have been cleansed by Ottoman empire 
ham khar o ham khorma ham claim bar asas geography ham bar asas farhang moshtarak
if its the culture thats unique one may argue that it shares all festivals with other 
Iranian people and that is why there was such an attempt by some editors to craft a 
different Norouz ...
if that argument is that who ever lived in the region labelled as Kurdistan in history 
was a kurd then what if the majority of those inhabitants have migrated elsewhere
so maybe the Karda or the Guti in some later form converted to Judaism and left as part 
of diaspora so who is Kurdish somebody with links to the region or someone who 
speaks one of the dialects like Sorani or Kermanshahi
 
I am taking out the line suggesting a notion of some proto kurdish drive for the 
current Kurdish struggle which in Turkey and Iraq was as an ethnic minority 
and in Iran as part of all the people of a nations unified against forms of tyranny 
--144.32.128.75 08:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry but the source (provided) is more legitimate and acceptable than your personal arguments. Wirya 19:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You should find a source claiming that. I guess you have heard that Turkish people used to be migrants, so the Kurds have probably been in Anatolia much longer. Bertilvidet 18:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If you believe this is the case, then please come up with a source (WP:RS) claiming so. Bertilvidet 18:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is proven that unfortunately Turkish gov systematically tries to minimize the Kurdish population. This is a research by a Turkish university about the birth rate issue. I hope it helps. . Wirya 18:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  where? what history?  

message: Since long ago I have been looking for a free image of Yilmaz Guney but found nothing notable. Here this website has good images: , , but I could not find its Copyright page unless this note here just above Lenins image where the copyright mark stands:  
:Module's Name: News
:Module's Version: 1.1
:Module's Description: Module for news publishing.
:License: GNU/GPL
:Author's Name: Enrico Fedele & Francisco Burzi''
Is it related to the images copyright?
Wirya 18:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yilmaz Guney

message: It is a well known fact that people of turkey even though speaking a turkic language
have ethincally diverse background they share genes with the greek, and other mediteranian people and many too with Armenians even though a genocide might have been carried out
So too with many Iranian people (or Indoeuropean speakers of Iranian branch)
historically much of the region has been inhabited by non turkic people but they are part 
of the history of the modern state of turkey 
so if lets say there had been a kingdom with name having the sound K in this region 
or something like the Hurrian or Halaf how are these part of the history of an as yet 
unborn nation state and not part of the history of let say Turkey or Syria
first you calssify a people according to cultural and lingual affinity 
then you take a region and say that who ever was in this region is a kurd 
so who ever hit somebody on the head in this region it was because the Kurds 
really always wanted independence 
come on Arbil jan
the history of kingdoms in that region have nothing to do with modern kurds 
who if anything were mobile enough to even shift to as far as mazabdaran and
baluchistan and not only under force but like every cattle herding tribe would 
move under changes in climate so the Kurds dont end in the region labelled 
in the map but whole of Iran is Kurdistan like whole of the areas inhabited by Kurds 
could be called Iran (not the modern nation state but historical Iran)
& Iam not pan Iranian or pan anything
::The fact that you share your land with us, and share ours with you etc. shows a clear pan. :-). BTW Kurds  are the direct descendants of the people who lived there, like the muslim Persians are descendants of ancient people who lived in their region. For every thing in the article which you think sounds untrue please help by asking evidence. I will be glad. Wirya 19:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carduchi and modern citizens of turkey  

message: The closest languages in the Iranian family to the Kurdish language are Gilaki and Balochi. All of these are north-western Iranian languages. On the other hand, Persian is a south-western Iranian language, so it is not as close as Gilaki and Balochi. In the info. box, we have to mention the closest ethnic groups which would be Gilakis and Balochis. So I suggest to replace Persian and Lori with Balochi and Gilaki inside the Parantheses in the related ethnic groups entry of the info. box.Heja Helweda 20:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related Ethnic Groups 

message: The woman in red in the image of the culture section is not Kurdish. Shepol.
::Yes, probably the woman in black in the right side either. BUT what's wrong with that? Wirya 15:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: No title

message: Please do not add that quote from Otuken to the culture section. Let's that section be limited to cultural issues rather than, oppressions and governments orpolitics. Such a stuff belongs to history sections or articles. Wirya 10:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quote from Otuken

message: Removal of sourced material is not appropriate, especially when it is sourced. I just added the word 'may' to the sentence. When the source say something, then we have not the write to remove whole of iy according to our arguments and conclusions. here we cannot argue and write things according to personal view and beliefs. We just write articles according to verifiable source. The verifiable source already concludes something, whether it has any relationship tp other languages or not is not our job. You have not provided any source that this pecularity is not from Hurrian. Even if youprovide something like that, it still is not a reason to remove that previous sourced material. who knows why not the peculairy on other languages´too is not a legacy from ancient peoples of the region who were absorbed by them? let's stop our personal argument and accept verifiable sources. Jalalarbil 22:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sourced material

message: Who said Kurds are not Iranic? Why we should clearly show realities in another way? why we should make the situation heated? Who said Kurds are not Iranic? what is Iranic? Don't you agree that it is not a race? We have already agreed the the language which modern Kurds speak is among Iranic languages and thus Kurds are Iranic by speech. Jalalarbil 23:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article does not say they are not Aryan, it simply says they are a mix of indigenous Hurrian and migrating Aryans. After all no ethnic group is 100% pure. Please read the article and History of the Kurds carefully. In the latter(History of the Kurds), under the title of Indo-European Migration, it says: Medes, Scythians and Sagarthians are the better-known clans of the Indo-European-speaking Aryans who settled in the area (Kurdistan). Heja Helweda 23:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Who said?

message: We frequently hear that Kurdich culture is Iranic, the reason given for conclusion is that because Kurdish language is Iranic, hence their culture is Iranic. another reason given here is that because there are many similar aspects in Kurdish and Persian cultures (as well as cultures of other Iranic-speaking peoples) hence Kurdish culture is Iranian. For which they provide source, however noone provide a source that attests and conforms that Kurdish culture is Iranic. Here such an evidence is needed not evidence for how much shahname or Avesta is regared by people of Kermanshah or Baghdad. Jalalarbil 23:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kurdish culture

message: 1) Kurds are an Iranic people
2) Kurds speak an Iranian language
3) Kurds have an Iranic culture
Anyone who do not accept this, is a Turkish or Arabic facist, who is spaming Wikipedia full of Turkish and Arabic propaganda!
Stop please! --ShapurAriani 22:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These are already mentioned in the article. Why are you so upset?Heja Helweda 23:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe this is already redundant and has been said several times before, I apologize in advance for that. But the following need to be addressed: The article says "Kurdish culture is close to Iranian culture". This implies that they are two separate things which have a certain affinity. Since Iranian is a rather general term, however, it includes Kurds as well (rather than "Persian" in its modern use meaning Persian-speaking, which does not necessarily include Kurds). I think a better formulation is to say that the Kurdish culture is close to that of other groups of the Iranian peoples, which would thus imply both the specific differences of these different groups, as well as the umbrella-term Iranian. Same holds for the intro, where it says that the Kurds are ethnically close to Iranian peoples' groups. That is inaccurate since they are themselves part of the Iranian peoples groups, so it should be changed to "They are ethnically close to other Iranian peoples", in order not to create a misunderstanding. Shervink 11:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree.  Zor Supas.  --Ali doostzadeh 03:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three Facts about Kurds 

message: "Since Kurds speak an Aryan tongue, formerly it was thought that they are descendants of the Aryan tribes that began migrating from Central Asia into what is now Iran in the 2nd millennium BC”
Formerly it was thought? Did Britannica and Columbia changed their text recently? I don’t think so. Please bring evident if they did, otherwise we can not overrule TWO major encyclopedias because of ONE study. wont be fair. We should represent BOTH sides equally and neutrally. The current wording is POV since it basically says that Britannica and Columbia were wrong. These are very famous encyclopedias and if this issue was legitimate, they would update themselves. Unless we have evidence that they did we can not express POV as fact. Be fair and mention both sides neutrally. Thank you.Gol 05:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please check your writings before posting. Sign your posts. Be polite. Don't attack other users. Don't remove sourced material. Don't push your POV. Assume good faith. You are doing just about everything that shouldn't be done here. Have you noticed the banner on top of the page asking you to stay calm when writing? Shervink 16:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Gol, I do dot disagree with including that, as it was once generally tought to be true, and interestingly still many Kurds themselves believe that!Wirya 09:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes 

message: Dear Folks: I've been working on the citations and during one of the saves, everything from the middle of the religion section to the end disappeared. I tried to put it back, but would appreciate it if you all would look and put back anything missing.
Thanks!--CTSWyneken(talk) 13:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weird Blanking in Save 

message: An editor keeps changing the number in the text box from 14-15 million, a range based in the cited data, to 10-12 million. Is there a source for this number? As is, it conflicts with our citation.
Also, our article cites the Encyclopedia Britannica, which states very clearly that the Kurds resisted these two groups. Does anyone have a source that contradicts it?
If the answer is no to these, I'd appreciate it if the editors would stop changing the information, since it misrepresents our sources. Wikipedia is about summarizing scholarship, not our own ideas.--CTSWyneken(talk) 10:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes Good point, but apparently this removal of sourced material originates from this minor edit war: . There is two different views regarding the modern Arameans (or Chaldo-Assyrians) who recently have adopted ethnic name 'Assyrian': One academic (by Historians and encyclopedias), and one nationalistic (by Arameans themselves) probably these firends need a help in editing the article Assyrian people, which is largely writen with unsourced material and is only based on personal speculations. Wirya 20:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Kurds in Turkey; Assytians and Sumarians fought