Talk:History of wine

message: Cut n Paste from the main Wine article to use a starting point. There is some good stuff here but it is just too cumbersome to keep intact in the main Wine article-especially if we want to get that one up to FA. Another benefit of the splinter is that we can add more history and really go to town here. In the mean time, I've got a couple history of wine books that I can dig into and hopefully find some more sources. Agne 08:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Starting a Splinter 

message: This section has some problems, particularly in its point of view of no wine being of world significance from new world countries until the late 20th c.  There was incredible interest and desire for the Constantia wine from South Africa.  I will endeavor to amend this sometime soon.  Dancingredshoes 19:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. This article was originally a cut and paste abstract from the main Wine article where its presence hinder the development of both subjects due to the overwhelming length of the article. Now that it is its own article, we can give it proper care to introduce more NPOV and expand on the areas like New World wine that didn't get much attention before. It's a work in progress so feel free to dive in. AgneCheese/Wine 20:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New World Wines

message: I believe this statement to be inaccurate: "Much modern wine culture derives from the practices of the ancient Greek..." Someone is going to have to provide evidence for that. Especially given that we don't have symposia, big flat communal drinking cups, etc.  Novium 11:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  greek culture 

message: I just expanded the previously one-sentence section on China, although it could use some improvement and further expansion.--Pericles of AthensTalk 12:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[China]]

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thread_title: [[WP:FOOD|WikiProject Food and drink]] Tagging

message: I would prefer to have a source quoted for that: These identifications are regarded with caution by some biochemists because of the risk of false positives, particularly where complex mixtures of organic materials, and degradation products, may be present. The identifications have not yet been replicated in other laboratories. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request source 

message: I removed the following statement from the lead: "In places such as Germany, beer was banned and considered pagan and barbaric, while wine consumption was viewed as civilized and a sign of conversion." Even though it was cited with R. Phillips A Short History of Wine (pp. 62–3), it looks like misintepretation of the source or simply bad scholarship by Phillips. I've read tons of information about how important and common beer was in most of Northern Europe throughout most of the Middle Ages. And Germany was a leading exporter of beer during the 13th, for crying out loud! Ale and beer was often considered less refined than wine by the upper classes, but formed an important part of the everyday diet for most people. If it was banned, it had to have been an entirely ineffectual ban, or something very local. For references on this I have some references on the matter. Just look up "ale", "beer" or "brewing" in the following works:
*Adamson, Melitta Weiss Food in Medieval Times. Greenwood Press, Westport, CT. 2004. 
*Medieval Science, Technology, and Medicine: an Encyclopedia. Thomas Glick, Steven J. Livesey, Faith Wallis (editors). Routledge, New York. 2005. 
*Regional Cuisines of Medieval Europe: A Book of Essays. edited by Melitta Weiss Adamson (editor). Routledge, New York. 2002. 
*Scully, Terence The Art of Cookery in the Middle Ages. The Boydell Press, Woodbridge. 1995. 
Peter Isotalo 14:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banning beer in Germany 

message: I removed the clause that said "persistent suggestions that Georgia is the birthplace of wine".
1) The assertion was sourced to a Georgian website. I'm sorry, that doesn't look neutral.
2) The website didn't specifically say that there were "persistent suggestions": it only persistently suggested. 
AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Since these modern states did not exist in the era when viticulture was born, I guess that the locations can be rephrased with reference to natural geographical landmarks (such as "Southern Caucasus"?) which make more sense in that time perspective. Tomas e (talk) 11:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess that's a point too - it certainly could be rephrased as "Colchis was the birthplace of wine", or whatever, but there would still have to be a proper source proving this, and not just a Georgian website. I'm happy with putting it back if the source is e.g. a scholarly article from an Archaeology journal which can argue that the assertion is not debateable. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 16:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Georgia is the birthplace of wine? 

message: Does whoever edited the 'Islamic Middle East' section really think that wine and other different alcoholic beverages didn't exist just because of prohibitions in Islam? Do some research. I am editing this section and also creating a separate page for "Wine in the Middle East," where, hopefully, much work can be done.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sicarii (talk • contribs) 19:39, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: wine in the middle east

message: what about? http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/wine_msg.php?titleid=37
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/dec/11/science/sci-wine11--212.186.162.153 (talk) 23:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: See Talk:Wine#China 7000 BC. These claims are typically the result of the lack of differentiation between wine and alcoholic/fermented beverages in general in the Chinese language. See Chinese alcoholic beverages for explanation of a frequent mistranslation. Tomas e (talk) 12:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What he said. There was grape wine production in ancient China, but that wasn't it. — LlywelynII 10:37, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: 9000 year old wine in china

message: The image of a Chinese vessel inside section about Egypt is very confusing and without closer look suggests, that the vessel is actually Egyptian. I suggest removing the image or moving it to Chinese section. --Kremso (talk) 18:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese wine vessel inside Egypt section 

message: The first paragraph cites Iran and Armenia as the earliest wine locations, but first paragraph of Early History section cites Georgia as the earliest. Citation #2 (Iran) states 7000 years ago (5000 BC) while citation #3 (Armenia) states 6000 years ago (4000 BC). Citation #1 link is broken and the only "8000 year old wine archaeology" search on that website (http://www.independent.co.uk) turns up article, "Cradle of wine-making, Georgia looks to foreign markets." Suggest including Georgia in paragraph 1 and replacing or removing citation #1. LoneStar77 (talk) 13:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: First paragraph error and citation 1 broken

message: It has been scientifically proven that grape vines, are plants that were only indigenous to the area of Asia Minor known in classical times as Ionia.  The article fails to cite archeological evidence dating from 8,000-10,000 b.c. which identifies grape seeds that are genetically linked to all genus and variety of naturally existing vines worldwide used in wine production.  If memory serves, the only exception might be wild "fruit" grape vines which are unrelated to seeds that were tested (when found in modern-day Turkey).  Some wild grape vines do not produce grapes often, some wild vines are totally dormant and most if not all are unsuitable for making wine.  
If the reference can be located and added it will confirm that the grapes and fermentation methods, link the Egyptian method of producing fermented alcohol (i.e. beer) to the earliest known production of wine historically by Proto-Hellenes and Homeric Greeks in the "area south of the Aegean" (A.S.I.A.).  This corresponds already to the mention of the Armenian and Georgian archeological sites since they are closely related historically and geographically.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.23.143 (talk) 05:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  GRAPES INDIGENOUS ONLY TO HELLENIC A.S.I.A. MINOR  

message: Per WP:ERA, this edit established this page's usage as BC & AD. Kindly maintain it, pending a new consensus. Thanks, — LlywelynII 10:37, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:ERA]]

message: Could someone check the Temple source or even his cites? The old edit here had him claiming that the Classical Pharmacopoeia of the Heavenly Husbandman discusses grape wine within China. The sources at wine in China and Chinese booze, though, seem to think there were no indications of jiu production from putao in the classic texts. — LlywelynII 13:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Chinese wine

message: Hello,
The oldest wine cellar was found in Shulaveris Gora in Georgia, dated around 6000BC
Saying that Armenia is the oldest place and cradle of wine making is a mistake to be corrected in your article, moreover it is 4100BC which is obviously more then 1000 later later then the one in Shulaveris Gora in Georgia.
The sentence:" The oldest evidence of wine production has been found in Armenia (c. 4100 BC),[4][5][6][7][8] where the oldest winery to date was uncovered." must be removed.
Hopefully the mistake will be corrected soon.
Best regards,
Zurab Zaalishvili  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zurabzaalishvili (talk • contribs) 07:35, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Reference needed. Rmhermen (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenia - birthplace of winemaking - WRONG 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The map in the article showing the archeological sites is outdated as it does not show the Areni-1 cave complex. There is a version of the same map with Areni-1 added on commons, should we change it?--Aram-van (talk) 06:47, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outdated map 

message: Here to address an issue regarding incorrect dating. Multiple sources state that both Armenia and Georgia date back to ~6000 BC. If one responds, we can discuss the date and provide evidence (sources) stating that Armenia dates back to 6000 BC in wine making, not 4100 BC.
-- @beyondsweetful
:First of all, the following behaviour is shameful and looks like vandalism for me :
:*"Revised punctuation"
:* "Fixed typo"
:* another "Fixed typo"
:You have an interesting way of "revising punctuation" and "fixing typo".
:Secondly, provide serious sources to support what you say. I look forward to your "multiple sources". Above all, I would be interested in the name of the discovery site. Because Areni-1 is the oldest discovery of wine-making on the Armenian territory and the "official" scientific works write "6100 years ago" or "4100 BC". If the oldest evidence dates back to 6000 BC in Armenia, there should be the place of the discovery, the corresponding scientific works etc...
:Thirdly, I have multiple sources that say that wine-making in Georgia dates back to 8000 BC. These sources are not serious in my opinion because they confuse "8000 years ago" with "8000 BC" but at least you have the info.
:PS: Please provide a source for the fact that the Georgian discovery dates from only 2000 BC as you have amended the article. I hope you did not invent this date from thin air. 
:--Van Gogia (talk) 09:28, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Differing Dates 

message: — Assignment last updated by Winelover1985 (talk) 00:57, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Language in Advertising