Talk:Siege of Badajoz (1812)

message: During the Siege, Wellington was either the "Earl of Wellington" or the "Viscount Wellington of Talavera and Wellington" (depending on which source you refer to) - but certianly not Duke. Should the article not call him accordingly? Wefa (talk) 20:58, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wellington's listing in the infobox 

message: I have noted that you have edited this page on the basis of 'Reverted to pre-vandalism numbers.'
Please be aware that the revised figures are based on research data provided by an accredited Spanish military historian who actually lives in Badajoz.
(Please refer to and read the other data included in my edit.)
These findings in his recent paper have been accepted by the Encyclopædia Britannica - as you can see from the link to the paper by Adrian Gilbert.
At the recent Wellington Congress at Southampton University the following academics verified the research and mandated EB to make their changes :
    > Professor Bruce Collins, Sheffield Hallam University, UK
    > Professor Ed Coss, US Army Command & General Staff College, USA
    > Professor Charles Esdaile, Liverpool University, UK
    > Professor Alicia Laspra, University of Oviedo, Spain
    > Dr Rory Muir, University of Adelaide, Australia
    > Professor Chris Woolgar, Southampton University, UK
    > Dr Mark Thompson, author of several books on the period.
    > Andrew Grainger, Secretary General of the British Commission for Military History
Please advise me of your verifiable sources to justify the 4,000 civilian casualties.
Richard Tennant (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit by anonymous user 86.241.175.56 

message: Following your edit in the ‘info box’ of the Siege of Badajoz (1812) you state:
“The source mentions the 4,000 figure without formally disproving it. Btw a source less biased than Encyclopædia Britannica would be very welcome when discussing British war crimes.”
I note that this wording is the same as has been previously used :</br>
On : 14 May 2019    By : 86.241.175.56‎</br>
“The source mentions the 4,000 figure without formally disproving it. Btw a source less biased than Encyclopædia Britannica would be very welcome when discussing British war crimes.”</br>
This same editor has previously reverted edits using particularly provocative phrasing :</br>
On : 7 May 2019 “Reverted to pre-vandalism numbers.”</br>
On : 5 January 2015  “restored numbers from before british revisionism.”
As the Australian historian, Gavin Daly of the University of Tasmania, states “Trying to quantify the number of victims is very difficult indeed given the nature of the British sources and the dearth of Spanish sources.” However an authentic contemporary Spanish source has been found in Badajoz. The full text of the research article can be viewed at:</br>
http://www.dip-badajoz.es/cultura/ceex/reex_digital/reex_XXXIX/1983/T.%20XXXIX%20n.%201%201983%20en.-abr/RV10767.pdf</br>
A summary blog had been compiled by the Badajoz military historians Andrés Lloret, Col. Fernando Ortiz, José María Monreal & Javier Fernández Díaz at :</br>
http://badajoz1812.blogspot.com.es/2012/04/lista-con-los-civiles-muertos-durante.html</br>
Both of these papers are, understandably, in Spanish. Colonel Ortiz made a translation and summary in English which was published by, the American based, The Napoleon Series :</br>
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/1812/Peninsula/Badajoz/CivilianCasualtiesBadajoz/c_civiliancasuatiessackofBadajoz.html</br>
In the report by the Badajoz priest it list, street by street, the numbers of casualties and, in the majority, their actual names.
For the purposed of the Wikipedia article this research has been summaries as :
The most detailed study of the effects of the British riot and looting of Badajoz is undoubtedly the one published in 1983 by Eladio Méndez Venegas from data collected in the Diocesan Archives of Badajoz. Research into the local archives have established that only about 300 families (between 1,200 and 1,500 people) had remained in the city. A document drawn up at the time by the priest of the Parish of Conception, which is signed ‘Bances’, presents in two folios the detailed list, per street/per parish, of the civilian dead and injured. The conclusion is that the total could be as high as 250, possibly even 280. This number may seem small but it means that there could have been between 20% and 30% of the Spanish civilians who were within the walls of Badajoz were killed or injured.
Finally, you have stated “a source less biased than Encyclopædia Britannica would be very welcome when discussing British war crimes.”</br>
The link to EB had been included, probably, as a reliable source. This content in EN is written by Adrian Gilbert. However, as they state : ‘This contribution has not yet been formally edited by Britannica - These articles have not yet undergone the rigorous in-house editing or fact-checking and styling process to which most Britannica articles are customarily subjected.’</br>
There was extended communication with the editors of EB. They, as requested, went back to the Adrian Gilbert and replied “Adrian does not remember where he originally got that figure—it’s been some years.” Because of this prevaricated reply from Gilbert they modified the text of the paper to read : some 200–300 civilians had likely been killed or injured. (There are sources that put the civilian casualty rate as high as 4,000, but recent research shows this estimate to be highly inflated.)
So, as you state, EB mentions the 4,000 figure without 'formally disproving' it.</br>
So, in accordance with Wikipedia requirements, I must ask you to 'formally prove' the figure of 4,000 from your own 'less biased' but verifiable sources.
Richard Tennant (talk) 20:45, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit : 29 October 2019 	By : 86.241.165.10 

message: From Charles Stewart's 1828 account of the campaign - Plan of Badajoz and its environs, invested March 17th 1812: https://archive.org/details/narrativeofpenin00lond/page/n680/mode/1up Shtove (talk) 07:48, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another map