Talk:Byzantine Empire/Archive 7

message: Ok lets get this straight. Byzantium was born on Christmas eve... it's power was at its height in 1025, but her territorial extent was greatest under Justinian I's reign. We don't give a damn what a few Historians (a minority) say when Byzantium was born. Either way, eve if Byzantium was born at Heracliu's reign, than it is a Byzantium with Egypt, Syria, Palestine and north Africa that is territorially at a maximum, not in 1025 when she was the most powerful, but not the greatest in territorial extent. Tourskin (talk) 23:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In general I agree(as my edits show it)....one more thing: as many sources that give 330 are that give 476, so I consider any of these dates as good ones, but this is not the case, and even as Heracius`s reign was marked by many important events, they were not so ground-breaking as to consider it the birth of the empire(the greatest of these being: the birth of Islam and it`s expansion, the themata system and some new religiouse controveries). AdrianCo (talk) 00:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Byzantine maps 

message: What estimate? The Empire in 1200 consisted of Western Asia Minor and Greece, in 1210 it barely consisted of anything more than a strip of land from Smyrna to Nicaea and in 1273 was again holding much of Greece and western Asia Minor. We need some references for these numbers. Is this figure with regards to the "Byzantine people" i.e. Greco-Romans or subjects of such a state, or states, or which state for that matter! There was Epirus, Nicaea, Trebizond. Tourskin (talk) 05:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  13th century est. 3,000,000 

message: please make it blue, it is good enough for Oxford  -- 78.55.226.144 (talk) 13:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey...they are good enough for other Univerisies as well(I know about Austria and Romania and presume Greece, Turkey and Russia to have Universities with such courses).AdrianCo (talk) 14:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. I've just translated the German wiki article, please feel free to improve, it's rather dry as it is. --Javits2000 (talk) 20:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great job. Dr.K. (talk) 21:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Byzantine Studies]] 

message: is also missing ;-) -- 78.55.226.144 (talk) 01:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your great ideas. Dr.K. (talk) 01:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No prob, i (user:Cherubino) am tinkering on :de:Wikipedia:WikiProjekt Portale/Baustelle/Portal:Byzanz and just was surpised that there was no [byzantine studies] and [portal] on en:-- 78.55.226.144 (talk) 01:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Vielen Dank und Willkommen hier. Dr.K. (talk) 02:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Portal:Byzantine Empire]] 

message: 3rdAlcove changed the "dominance of Greek language, culture and population" clause in the intro to remove the "culture and population" portion. I personally think that is ok but I believe most authors disagree so this should probably be restored until there is a consensus. Regarding the comment about denying Roman heritage although this is true but it is a very sensitive and complex issue and, so, should not be mentioned without being very clear about the context. I believe the thinking has been to simply not mention it in the intro because it is so difficult to discuss tersely without being POV.
--Mcorazao (talk) 18:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand this anti-Greek sentiment out there. Yes Byzantium had many peoples under her command but you see for most of her history her territory consisted of Asia Minor and Greece, territories which are very, very Greek. Tourskin (talk) 19:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Fair point. But I have a genuine question. To those who might find this POV, what does it matter if ethnicity is difficult to define? Anyways, how bout we replace the word "dominance" with "plurality". Tourskin (talk) 19:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

text: We should not base our discussions on "self-speaking" statements. We should base our understanding of the Byzantine Empire based on direct evidence (wherever available). Multiple historical sources indicate that the Byzantine Empire did have a "Greek identity" (i.e. ethnic, cultural, linguistic, and demographic) even if that identity took centuries for it to become more prevalent and pervasive in Byzantine affairs. Moreover, there are multiple Wikipedia articles that treat this particular aspect of the Byzantine Empire with sourced content (i.e. Byzantine Greeks). Nevertheless, to simply state that ethnicity is simply a matter of choice naively ignores (or at least downplays) the potential ascriptive nature of ethnic identity. Therefore, it is unwise to use the English as an example in order to prove that the Greeks possessed an unadultered form of non-ascriptive self-identity. History indicates that the Greeks have always possessed a multifaceted identity that embodies descent (i.e. kinship ties), culture, language, and religion. It is because of this multifaceted dynamic that the Greeks were able to preserve their identity and persevere in times of crisis. Of course, I really don't care about all of this since there are other articles that need improving. Later. Elysonius (talk) 00:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: It was not fair, but the Franks said it and we being a frankish (western) wikipedia should include this.Tourskin (talk) 21:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dominance is a stronger  term than plurality. Therefore toning down "dominance" and using the more neutral "plurality" sounds like a fair compromise. Dr.K. (talk) 22:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Plurality" seems too distant and ambiguous. "Presence", on the other hand, seems more straightforward while being neutral at the same time. Of course, that's just my opinion I suppose. Elysonius (talk) 00:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: P.S. Instead of "dominance", why not use "significant presence"? I know the phrase sounds kind of euphemistic, but it is neutral. Elysonius (talk) 00:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I like Plurality because its one word and its more specific - Greek may or may not have been the majority, but it had the most speakers. Tourskin (talk) 01:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I hate to insist, but implementing the term "plurality" would not coincide with the historical data that indicates a strong degree of "ethno-cultural dominance" on the part of the Greeks. The notion that the Greeks "may or may not have been the majority" is somewhat questionable since ethnic Greeks inhabited in overwhelming numbers the Greek peninsula, the Aegean islands, at least 1/3 of Anatolia (as well as its coastlines) not to mention the substantial Greek colonies in southern Italy, Egypt, Palestine, and elsewhere. From a logical standpoint, all empires exhibit forms of "pluralism" and the Byzantine Empire is no exception to that general rule. However, the fact that the Greeks were the majority population of the Byzantine Empire should permit the use of the term "presence" instead of "plurality". Even if the Greeks were not the demographic majority of the Byzantine Empire, their culture was a dominant force (and not just their language). Elysonius (talk) 02:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: P.S. I forgot to apologize for inadvertently reverting the article when I implemented my usual minor tweaks. My mind wanders from time to time and I seem to have been "distracted" more so by the discussion rather than by the edits made by other users. Again, I deeply apologize. Elysonius (talk) 02:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I really dont care anymore to be honest. What I would like to add in before phasing out of this discussion is that Byzantium was greek through and through the end. Who cares what people were ruled by it, after the arab wars theres no doubt about its Greekiness. Yeh its a Roman empire, but a Greco-Roman one at that. Tourskin (talk) 04:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't care either. However, my insistence is mostly based on making sure that this article presents consistent and accurate data. That's all. Elysonius (talk) 21:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I completely agree with your overall assessment Dr. K and support keeping the phrase "dominance of the Greek language, culture, and population". If you think about it, the same phrase can be found in the "Etymology" section of the article. It would not make sense to remove the terms "culture" and "population" from the phrase shown in the introductory paragraph while allowing them to remain in the same exact phrase shown in the "Etymology" section. That indicates inconsistency, which is unwanted in an article with FA status. Elysonius (talk) 21:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Elysonius. The etymology section however was removed recently due to duplication as per this diff. So there is only one mention of this in the intro only. Take care for now. Tasos (Dr.K. (talk) 22:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, no objections on my part but what does "Greek" mean in that context? Greek-speaking? If so, perhaps the mention of language covers it. 3rdAlcove (talk) 01:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question 3rdAlcove. However I think that Greek speaking doesn't necessarily denote Greek culture automatically. Since it is also cited I gather the citation mentions all three. Dr.K. (talk) 02:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Dominance" edit 

message: It seems to me that it WAS the successor state, not IS. Why is using present tense a good idea?90.190.225.121 (talk) 11:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the successor state. Was implies that it has lost that status. Byzantium was a state, and it is the successor state to the Roman Empire. Its destruction in 1453 doesn't change the fact that it is the successor. "was" Might imply that it lost that status somehow. Although good point.  Tourskin (talk) 23:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why use present tense in the first sentence? 

message: People, can I please see what references are used for the population numbers? Especially the 13th cent estimate!! Tourskin (talk) 06:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Populations 

message: Why is there no link, anywhere at all in this 100kb+ article to Byzantine-Seljuk Wars? Tourskin (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Am I taking this personally? 

message: The Link is a little redundant since most of the article is a summarized version of the socio-political situation of the only civilisation in existance in the Mediterranean at the time, the Byzantine one. Tourskin (talk) 21:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's why I find it useful -- it gives a different type of information on the period than this article, which is primarily concerned with political events during the era. --Javits2000 (talk) 11:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Late Antiquity Link 

message: In 809 the Bulgarian khan Krum took the city of Serdica, modern Sophia, from the Byzantines.  This strongly implies that before this date it was a Byzantine possession, why do no maps show the fact that a number of inland Balkan fortified cities, such as Philippopolis, Markellai and Makrolivadia etc were in Byzantine hands for much of the period prior to Symeon?
OK the Byzantine presence in inland Thrace was chiefly military and confined to strategic fortified settlements and the countryside was inhabited by Slav tribes, but there was a presence and it should be noted on maps.
Urselius (talk) 09:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps a bit of contested territory, so we could shade it in, just like for the 717 AD map. Tourskin (talk) 02:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Nice. Unfortunately I'm too cheap to subscribe so thats no good. Tourskin (talk) 16:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Thanks. Unfortunately, I'm a little busy right now with an Organic Chemistry exam, a Metabolic biochemistry test and I'm moving house soon too. I'll see what I can do in the weekend lol. Tourskin (talk) 18:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inland Thrace and Serdica pre Symeon. 

message: I think Tourskin is correct. If there are no sources for these population figures, and especially the 13th century where I see no citation, then they should be removed.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population revisited! 

message: Shouldn't the name of the empire in greek be Basileía Romaíon?
It is stated as so in the etymology section, but in the infobox it is written Vasileía Romaíon, so which one is the correct one? Super Knuckles (talk) 20:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem here is the letter "B"; in Greek "B" sounds like "V". Dr.K. (talk) 21:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So both of them, are correct, isn't it? Super Knuckles (talk) 21:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. But I would prefer the second version because it also provides the correct pronunciation. Dr.K. (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But if the translitteration should match (modern?) pronunciation, wouldn't you have to write Vasilía Roméon? [edit: I now see that this is already the case.] Personally I would prefer to stick to the 'classical' transcription, because we do this in most other cases. (For instance, we don't write Mikhail Paleologos but Michael Palaiologos.) Iblardi (talk) 18:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek name 

message: I rather like this edit that was reverted with one slight change:
The term Byzantine Empire is a historiographical invention. It was never in use during the Empire's lifetime.
The term Byzantine Empire is a historiographical invention, and it was never in use during the Empire's lifetime.
Can we reach a consensus on changing this sentence? It does sound much better. Monsieurdl mon talk-mon contribs 13:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lines 72 and 73 of the reverted edit 

message: Nothing is mentioned about Alp Arslan's successes against Andronikus I Komnenus in western Asia Minor. It was during this and Isaac Angelus' reign that the Turks began to infiltrate slowly but surely, a precursor to the heavier incursions conducted against the Nicaean Empire a hundred years later. Tourskin (talk) 05:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rise of the Turks 

message: My revision of the lead is here, on the left.  I don't want to go into great detail as to why I think it's better, since honestly I think it speaks for itself.  "Consensus" resulted in jarring, mismatched prose, full of needlessly complicated digressions and redundancy.  That's exactly why I thought it was necessary to be bold.  I'm going to put it back in soon, unless someone can state specifically what's wrong with my version and how what was pruned should stay. Slac speak up! 03:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Its redundant; it adds nothing more but yet its chronologicaly flawed; why do you mention the sack of 1204 before the Komenian restoration? Too much detailis given to the Empire's early start. Besides, like it or not concensus is how things work here. Its not bad, in fact its preety good, but not good enough to replace the current lead, which is also equally good and therefore there is no need to fix something that is not broken. Tourskin (talk) 03:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Okay, so we can mention 1204 after the Komnemian restoration.  What do you see as redundant?  I'm trying to reduce some redundancy. Slac speak up! 08:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like the way the current lead is not because I contributed to it but because it lays it out in a better way; its better to leave the legacy to last and then list the events. Your lead has made more emphasis on pre-Arab invasions which is fine but remember that the Arab invasions destroyed the Eastern Roman mpire's power and turned it from a Roman offensive and large one to a smaller Greek, Byzantine, defensive one. Tourskin (talk) 15:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revised lead 

message: Tassos re-introduced the "Greek-speaking" empire part in the article's lead with a long (and tiring IMO) list of citations. I reverted once the edit (but I will not come back again), and I'll explain why I regard both the "Greek-speaking" part and the long list of references as redundant:
1) In the same paragraph of the lead I read "Due to the dominance of Medieval Greek language, culture and population ... " So the lead underscores and emphasizes with the most vivid way not only on the Greek language, but on the Greek culture and population as well. Then why is the "Greek-speaking" part necessary to be added just two lines above? IMO it is redundant and makes this part of the (so much debated!) lead repetitive. The dominance of the Greek civilization is well-expressed.
2) Along with the "Greek-speaking" part I also saw the addition of a looong series of citations of mainly inline encyclopedias. Why is this necessary for something so obvious and acceptable, and already cited at the end of the paragraph. And for something further cited with highly esteemed printed sources in the "language" section. For all these reasons (extensive citing in the "Language" section, not necessary in Wikipedia to cite the obvious) and for the additional reason that per WP:LEAD the citing of the lead should be careful and limited, since it is not necessary to cite facts or assessments developed in the main article, I do not agree with the inclusion of these long series of references. They are some general inline encyclopedias (why are they necessary when we have the specialized printed sources of the "Language" section fully in compliance with WP:VERIFY?), citing nothing more than what is already in detail cited in the "Language" section.
These are my thoughts based on the rationale that repetitions, useless insistance on the obvious, and overlapping and overwhelming citing have nothing to do with this high-quality (even higher that after the closing of the FAR thanks to the efforts of users such as Tourskin, Mcorazao etc.) level of the article.--Yannismarou (talk) 09:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Yannis. A clarification is needed here. I did not contribute either the recent or original "Greek-speaking" edit, the credit goes to this userfor the recent version. I simply restored it yet again. Recently I saw this this edit and I simply reverted it here. This slow motion dispute originally started around this point continued here  and finished here. Therefore I thought this edit was being reverted after I had restored it with citations in the past and naturally I disagreed and wondered why the citations were removed yet again. If you see the edit summary here makes no mention of your redundancy arguments. Therefore I was acting from a historical perspective (since this edit was removed in the past and for the same, wrong in my opinion, reason). So although I was aware of the more recent edits by Mcorazao and Tourskin, I did not check if either of these gentlemen added the disputed "Greek speaking" characterisation, neither did I read the Wikipedia editor's manual  before I reverted. I was simply disagreeing with the edit summary provided and simply reacted to that as I did in the past. Your comments do raise a valid issue however. Does someone revert spontaneously to a given edit he/she disagrees with, for whatever reason, or should someone consult the discussion page, page edit history, article status, Wikipedia manual etc. before proceeding? The latter approach, provides a more global perspective and clearly, in an ideal world, should be preferred. Unfortunately in this case, as the evidence shows, I was caught in a time warp. Tasos (Dr.K. (talk) 15:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Tasso, I do not say that you are right or wrong, and you are indeed correct about the history of the edits and reverts, which should have been more clear in my above comments. After all I also reverted! And I do not argue that I am definitely right here. That is why after reverting (which was also a unilateral action from me open to criticism as well) I brought the issue in the talk page for further discussion and input from more editors. In any case thanks for your swift response to my comments, and, in general, for the constant and detailed surveillance of the article. Allow me also to clarify that my (unfortunate maybe) reference to the users above was general and not in connection with the edit in question, and to emphasize that not only them but many more users, including of course yourself, have greatly contributed to the article's continues quality upgrading.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem at all Yannis. Your great work here and well considered opinions are not in dispute in any way. I just wanted to clarify the issue. In fact let me make it clear that if the editor I reverted recently had used your arguments in his edit summary, I would not have reverted because your arguments present a concise and global picture of the problem which is easily understood and accepted. It's always a pleasure talking to you. Take care. Tasos (Dr.K. (talk) 16:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek-speaking Empire 

message: Firstly, about the religion: The Roman and Greek Paganism should be mentioned at the early stages of the empire. 
As for the official languages, there should be a place at the table ,like in the Roman Empire, shouldn't it?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaniac (talk • contribs) 05:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some data missing from the table