Talk:Nu metal

message: Limp Bizkit are absolutely not nu metal. They're a rap band with some guitar riffs. All they do is rap, metal music has never been based on rap vocal style. Take away the guitar riffs from LB and what are you left with? A straight up rap song that just happens to use a real drum kit throwing in a bunch of cymbal splashes. The drumming isn't metal based, it's entirely rap beats, the singing is 100% rap, the DJ scratching etc are all rap. All LB did was add some guitar riffs to rap. That makes them rap as a genre not metal. Nu metal is metal music with various other INFLUENCES. When a bands entire style is grounded on rap, like LBs is, then they're not any form of metal music.
94.175.102.211 (talk) 11:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: We go by what reliable sources say on Wikipedia, and there's a ton of sources that call them nu metal. Sergecross73 msg me 11:52, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Limp Bizkit not nu metal 

message: It seems to be asserted as if it were a fact that these bands and their musical style were directly labeled "nu metal" in the early 1990s. The article doesn't have sources from before 1998 that describe the context of that era... because users didn't find this "nu metal" thing. Instead, it is mainly retrospective reviews from the 2000s, 2010s and 2020s as sources. The period from 1993 to 1998 should be considered in context. 
Subsection "#Terminology and origins" gives a perspective supported by sources from the 2000s and 2010s. It reads, "MTV states that the early nu metal group Korn arrived in 1993 into the burgeoning alternative metal scene". This is a retrospective analysis from 2016 but cannot be interpreted as such in the sentence.
Subsection "#1993–1997: Early development and rise". It reads: "Joel McIver acknowledged Korn as the band that created and pioneered the nu metal genre with its demo Neidermayer's Mind, which was released in 1993." This is looking back in retrospect, but the setting was completely different. Music Connection (Vol. XVIII July 4, 1994, to July 17, 1994, issue 14, page 38) did a review of Korn performing at  The Whisky and described "a rock band" with "a sound sometimes metal and sometimes funk". 
There is no trace of "nu metal" in the Los Angeles Times review of Korn's first album by Mike Boehm from October 20, 1994. Those who were around when Korn and Deftones released their first albums know that they weren't labeled as "nu metal" but just as "metal" or "hard rock". Korn was described as an "ultra-aggressive metal-rap hybrid" and "post-grunge alt-metal outfits" by Stephen Thomas Erlewine of AllMusic. There is no trace of "nu metal" in the review of Korn's second album by Jon Pareles of The New York Times on November 5, 1996, nor in the review by Kerrang! on August 3, 1996 (issue 607, page 43). Deftones was again described as a "hard rock" band by Billboard in November 1997, and "heavy metal" by Pollstar in December 1997. Some will say it's WP:FRINGE; while it depicts the context of that time and a chronology.
In the article, it reads, "There's some evidence to suggest that Coal Chamber were the first band to whom the tag 'nu metal' was actually applied, in a live review in Spin magazine." There is no indication of the date and number of this Spin magazine. In the article is written: "Nu metal continued to rise in popularity when Korn's 1996 album Life Is Peachy peaked at number 3 on the Billboard 200" Sorry, but it's decontextualized; Korn was not a nu metal band on this tour, it was just metal. (Kerrang!, February 8, 1997, issue 634, pages 16–20; quote p.17: "hybrid of cutting edge metal intensity and bad-ass hip-hop grooves")
Subsection "#Mainstream success (1998–2002)". Context: Here we see Joe Fleischer of Spin writing "nü-metal" in July 1998:  However, the terminology was not yet commonly used by MTV as they still described Korn on September 28, 1998, as "funk-metalers' latest album, Follow the Leader". An attempt was made on October 30, 1998, by Geoffrey Himes of The Washington Post who wrote: "The masters of this new sub-genre is Korn, whose first two albums went platinum". At this point, the bands were more often labeled nu-metal as Spins Chuck Eddy wrote in December 1998: "Florida's Limp Bizkit ... nu-metal with rapped vocals". 
The terminology became widespread during the second half of 1998, according to a retrospective article by Q magazine (March 2002, issue 188, page 98). In this review of the 1998 Family Values ​​Tour, it is written that "The inaugural Family Values Tour paired self-immolating Germans with big-shorted American mall rats, recalls Dan Silver. Cue: the birth of nu-metal, 243,000 tickets sales and countless teenage bedrooms left untidy." It is also written: "The Family Values package proved to be a marketing masterstroke. Not only did it act as a catalyst for the nascent nu-metal scene, it also helped etablish its driving dynasty".
The subsection "#Mainstream success (1998–2002)" could be: "#Establishing nu metal terminology and mainstream popularity (1998–2002)". The words "retrospectively" and "in retrospect" could be included within the sentences for information from 1993 to 1998 supported by 2000s, 2010s and 2020s sources. Oroborvs (talk) 23:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The prose is awful too. Endless name dropping and sales figures without any flow or narrative. Honestly I think it needs an entire rewrite, but I don't have to time or motivation to take on such an undertaking... Sergecross73 msg me 23:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the same thing. I'm baffled by the amount of work to improve the article. A few Billboard chart performances for major albums would have been enough. A handful of sales figures for major acts like Korn, Linkin Park and Slipknot would also have been enough. I mean, half the article should be gone. I gave the timeline above, which is pretty simple, until the media named this scene "nu metal" in 1998, which exploded ("Mainstream success"). It is a mistake not to take into consideration sources before 1998, but well... Oroborvs (talk) 12:17, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't a more cohesive way of discussing the origin of the term be to include an "etymology" section? That is what's done on punk rock, moshing, heavy metal music and it's much easier to understand than flip flopping between the development of the music and the development of the term, always clarifying the bands are labelled "in retrospect" prior to 1998. There is already a "Terminology and origins" section in this article, but that doesn't actually discuss the term, it's just overview of its influences (I'm not sure why it's labelled that). Issan Sumisu (talk) 14:41, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, indeed, it might be better this way. Also, Jonathan Davis and NME said it was a "movement". Davis confirms that the term nu metal was not used immediately: We're not a metal band, y'all' then they'd go 'Oh, then you're nu-metal!. Same for Stephen Carpenter: "I remember when these subgenre names didn't exist. It was just metal." The #Precursors section is incomplete:  There are also excessive citations in the article. The #Legacy section should be reduced as on New wave of British heavy metal. Oroborvs (talk) 17:19, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: While I don't necessarily disagree with you, we do need to exercise caution with going to much with first party band accounts of genre too. Bands love to ride the wave of a musical movement, and then abandon it when it falls out of popularity. Glam, grunge, 2000s Fall Out Boy emo bands - when the bubble burst, all of a sudden they say "Oh, we never really saw ourselves as a (genre) band." Nu metal is no different, especially in the late 2000s. If we strictly went by band accounts, there'd hardly me anyone left on the list. Sergecross73 msg me 22:11, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have definitely read something somewhere that discusses the idea of nu metal being a movement of post-grunge, industrial metal and rap metal bands who were popular at the same time rather than a genre. I've done some searching and can't find the one I specifically remember, but it does get a brief mention in this Spin article. It says "Nu-metal is a tough movement to pin down: Back in the late '90s and early '00s, it was an umbrella term for a strain of rock that grew parallel to the related genre post-grunge, as well as industrial metal and rap-rock" but it's very vague in what it means so I don't think it could be used in the context of the article but I do think it's an interesting view that could be discussed with a more detailed, third party source. I don't agree with it personally, I think nu metal was a sound but also a lot of bands who definitely didn't have that sound got lumped into it at the time (like Three Days Grace, Days of the New, Evanescence). Obviously my opinion doesn't hold wait there, but if anyone can find either the article I remember or something that similarly discusses it then it would probably be useful to incorporate. Issan Sumisu (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Nu metal is a genre and sound because it is, and many sources prove it. They point out that it was a "movement", probably because of the image attached to the music; it was not just about music. Dan Silver said in the same Q magazine article (March 2002, issue 188, page 98): "At the time [1998], America's 'alternative' youth were still struggling to fill the post-grunge void." This may corroborate what Davis and NME said and Dan Silver, who wrote the "nascent nu-metal scene". Bob Gulla wrote something interesting in his 323-page book The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Rock History (The Grunge and Post-Grunge Years, 1991–2005, Vol. 6, ISBN 978-0-313-32981-4) page 207: "Rap metal and its kissing cousin nü-metal exploded in the aftermath of grunge". This shows that the period 1993 to 1998 is not of little interest. I cautiously believe the Spin journalists created the term 'nu metal'; there is evidence here, although it cannot be attested. Oroborvs (talk) 17:19, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote you give for the term nu metal being popularised in the second half of 1998, beginning "The inaugural Family Values Tour", doesn't say the term was popularised then. Is that stated in a different section of that Q article or are you perceiving the phrase you bolded "the birth of nu-metal" as meaning the term was popularised at that moment? That part of this discussion is confusing me. Issan Sumisu (talk) 17:52, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Dan Silver does not write anything about the term, nor "popularised", but about "birth", with the dates on the article's left side, "1998, Tour Details, Started: War Memorial, Rochester, New York, 22 June 1998. Finished: Patriot Center, Fairfax, Virginia, 31 October 1998." (Cover). I don't have a source claiming that the term first appeared in 1998, but I'm trying to demonstrate that it was absent until a certain point. Other examples: there is nothing about "nu metal" in the reviews of Adrenaline by Deftones (Kerrang!, Paul Brannigan, November 25, 1995, issue 573, page 45) and Korn's first album (Kerrang!, Jason Arnopp, November 18, 1995, issue 572, page 43) and their second album (Metal Hammer, Ian Winwood, November 1996, page 61, quote="A melting pot of metal, hardcore and rap"), (Kerrang!, Mörat, August 3, 1996, issue 607, page 43). Magazine covers in 1999: Hard Force magazine (January 1999), "Neo-Metal Against Metal Warriors, Explosion of the Extreme, It's War 1999".  Total Guitar (December 1999), "Nu Metal, The New Stars of US Metal". . Oroborvs (talk) 19:54, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I partially understand your concerns, but at the same time...sometimes that's just how things are when they are developing. Terms can be applied retroactively and there's nothing wrong with that. I know the example people always give is that World War 1 didn't start being called that until there was a World War  2 to have to differentiate it from. Sergecross73 msg me 20:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not expressing a negative opinion about a term applied retroactively, but how could this be indicated in the article in an understandable way with the information above, something I cannot explain without a wall of text here. Also, knowing this, the sentence  "There's some evidence to suggest that Coal Chamber were the first band to whom the tag 'nu metal' was actually applied, in a live review in Spin magazine." cannot be placed before "In 1994, Korn released their self-titled debut album, which is widely considered the first nu metal album." And this Spin magazine has no publication date. Bob Gulla's The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Rock History, The Grunge and Post-Grunge Years, 1991–2005, Vol. 6, ISBN 978-0-313-32981-4, page 182: "Other bands that attempted to fill the bill in the second wave of industrial metal were Gravity Kills, Coal Chamber, and Grotus". Oroborvs (talk) 13:29, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coherence 

message: Honestly, based on what I have seen the past couple of months on this page, there seems to have been a lot of conflict over the coherence of this page as a whole. But one of the main things that I feel like has had the most issues was regarding all the bands that have influenced or precursor the genre. While there are some bands that could be agreed upon by some (e.g. Faith No More, Pantera), I have also seen the history of that section alone, how many opposing opinions that have existed, and how many other articles and sources outside of Wikipedia that would list almost a whole paragraph of bands influencing the genre. Because of this, I am not sure if there really even is a point of including that section at all, there may even be a small possibility that if the said influences were to be mentioned at all, they should all be in a separate article regarding it (considering how broad the range of artists and bands is). 2600:1700:E070:6390:C1DD:57E1:F13D:F0CF (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: All of that is way too vague to make any sort of sense. I'm not sure what of any of that is supposed to justify blanking the entirety of that sourced section. You'll have to be far more articulate to be persuasive. Sergecross73 msg me 01:18, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broad influence 

message: just a bunch of guys complaining about how bad nu metal is, nothing to do with the legacy 2A00:23C8:CE05:7B01:E02A:FC19:CE68:93FC (talk) 15:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to propose additions (and reliable sources that verify it.) Sergecross73 msg me 15:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's with the legacy section?