Talk:Battle of Cassinga

message: I think we should move this article to "Cassinga massacre", as only the SADF calls it a "battle", while tons of media call it a "massacre". At the very least a neutral name should be used, such as "Cassinga event". Thoughts?--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 15:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Move

message: It is interesting that the number of casualties still showed the round number of "600 SWAPO" while all the studies with any degrees of impartiality agrees with the fact that a large number of civilian were killed.
The "Cassinga Raid" for example details, quite well this aspect and, I believe, it is quite important to try to be objective while we write about these sensitive matters. Chief of SADF was informed that (see "Cassinga Raid", page 161): "There were many women and children at Alpha and a reasonable number were killed." 
While it is clear that a number of women were in uniforms, it is quite clear that a significant number were not combatant. Also, a large number of civilians were killed during the initial raid phase.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.124.29 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Namibian casualties 

message: No consensus to move the article to Cassinga massacre. Parsecboy (talk) 13:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: Why is the post-independence Namibian nationmal flag being used instead of SWAPO's own flag? The Namibian flag did not even exist at the time. The Swapo flag is here:  I don't know how to create a small icon sized flag from it. Roger (talk) 20:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong flag in Infobox 

message: I have received a notification from 'Theos Little Bot' regarding aspects of this file and, while unable to understand what was sought by this message, I found and read through the 'Talk Page' relevant to this entry.
It is understandable that Wiki editors would seek/prefer verification and attribution from published documents. My modest contributions relate to the photo-reconnaissance, strike planning and execution of the strike by Canberra aircraft. I also witnessed/attended briefings and debriefings and have included some relevant comment recalled from those.
I was an air reconnaissance specialist operational on the SAAF Canberra squadron at the time of the events. I also had comparatively extensive prior relevant experience as an aircrew officer in the RAF, wholly familiar with NATO techniques and performance standards - and WARPACT deployed equipment and formations. Not less than three 3 photo-reconnaissance sorties were conducted over the Cassinga nexus in the weeks prior to 'Op Reindeer' following the cessation of the seasonal continuous rains, showing swift progressive construction of defensive earthworks: the characteristic zigzag 'North Korean Pattern' of interlinked trenches grew considerably, the enlarged 'gunpits' where machine guns and/or mortar weapons would best be sited, concreted 'drive-in' berms for AFVs commanding the approach roads north and south. Perhaps the most significant new development was the construction of a star-pattern SAM-3 missile site, with its concrete pads for launchers, the radar and command trucks, and the all-weather access lanes to each. This was unmistakable, and it signaled the intent to make that base effectively invulnerable to air attack. This flagged-up the intended commencement of a well-understood escalation phase in the lexicon of insurgency warfare, the 'Creation of Secure Bases'. Had that missile battery been installed and become operational, no airborne strike by SAAF elements would have been possible. It was imperative to the SA strategy of containment that no chain of 'invulnerable bases' be established in Southern Angola.
'In war, truth is the first casualty' - Aeschylus
I note the comments of 'Mcgill Alexander', who was - as I understand it - a researcher and not a participant. The SADF certainly had prior awareness from contemporary photo-reconnaissance and the trained aircrew's 'eyeball reports' of the existence and temporary siting of 2, potentially 3, multi-barrelled anti-aircraft weapons identified positively as ZPU-4. The wheeled tow-carriage on 2 of them was especially clear, the third being partially obscured by tree foliage. These equipments had not been present two months earlier.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by NeueSoutie (talk • contribs) 23:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Airborne reconnaissance/strike planning 

message: moved new post from an old discussion above --Pgallert (talk) 20:10, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear , Wikipedia summarises what has been published before. If there are better sources than tabloids, please bring them forward. I notice, though, that the points crucial to your complaint are referenced to essay-type scientific publications. That doesn't mean they are correct, but these sources are much better than tabloids. The one publisher that would not be accepted, though, is South African Government material from before independence, as they are quite obviously even more biased than tabloids could ever be. Findings from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission would be a totally different story and, of course, absolutely acceptable. Please don't take the current state of the article as an indication of Wikipedia's doom, rather, help improving its articles in this important areas. Cheers, Pgallert (talk) 20:10, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: SWAPO itself has admitted more recently that Cassinga was a military base. Claims at the time that it was a refugee camp was obvious propaganda. They are not likely to admit the truth now. The suggestion that the status of the base is contested in not really true.Royalcourtier (talk) 06:37, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Nature of the Camp

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Is not encyclopedic language. Keep the agitprop terminology to the propaganda pamphlets, please. --105.0.3.108 (talk) 20:07, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  that terminology is literally factual. You've got to be in denial and extremely biased to literally be an apartheid denier.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.232.26.221 (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "apartheid regime" 

message: as it is widely known, and there is evidence which proves (both survivor's accounts and photos) that there were refugee civilians, including women and children, killed that day during the massacre. Calling it a battle is disrespectful and disingenuous. May 4 is a national memorial day in Angola which widely recognizes it as a massacre as well. Out of all places on the internet, this wikipedia article is oddly one of the only ones to refer to it as a "battle" All the more reason the article's title should be changed.
:That a binary narrative exists can’t be denied, but it’s a two way street. A large number of reputable sources also claim Cassinga was a military camp. Photographs of the camp taken just prior to the raid show a number of civilians, yes, but they also depict a number of uniformed PLAN guerrillas who would’ve certainly offered resistance if the camp was attacked. I’d suggest a large number of PLAN camps were organized this way, which reflects a similar strategy used by the PLO in Lebanon and the Polisario Front in Tindouf - camps which fulfilled the dual role of civilian refugee housing and military training facilities. --Katangais (talk) 19:19, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cassinga harboring soldiers is irrelevant as the murder of civilians; women and children can never be excused, yet it certainly looks like this article is doing just that. Also the "reputable sources" are from the apartheid army... the perpetrators. therefore they really arent credible.
{{subst:requested move|Cassinga Massacre|reason=Place 
Prior to my edits this article read like European settler apartheid army propaganda. Two days ago, as of the time im writing this, the people of Angola held an annual memorial day for those killed in Cassinga; May 4. It is widely recognized, not just in Angola, that what occured in Cassinga, 1978 was no "battle", it was a direct massacre of civilians as the photos, which this article even mentioned but treated as unsubstantial prior to my edits, even mentioned. There is also this video interview with two known Cassinga survivors, Hilya Pennah Nakatana Haufiku and Hileni Amakali-Mudhika, recounting their trauma that day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO6JIHbe1ik  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.232.26.221 (talk) 19:30, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  The title should be changed to "Massacre of Cassinga"  

message: http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0259-01902010000100011 LoomCreek (talk) 02:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source to investigate