Talk:Eye dialect

message: Huck is supposed to have written the text, so words such as "sivilize" are examples of his bad spelling and don't directly indicate anything about his pronunciation.  —JerryFriedman 16:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Eye dialect"  in ''Huck Finn''

message: :In some cases, eye dialect is intended as a relatively faithful representation of a non-standard pronunciation. Isn't that simply dialect writing? P. Krap's definition of eye dialect is basically spellings where the convention violated is one of the eyes, not of the ear. That means non-standard spellings although there is no distinctive difference in pronunciation, as in the sivilize example above.
:84.135.221.36 10:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a difference between merely respelling words (wuz, donut, hi, fone, thru, u) and representing a dialect phonetically.  The article says it covers the former ("a pronunciation that is actually no different from the standard pronunciation") but most of the examples show the latter.  "dat", "de", "gwine ter", "vouldn't", and "sezee" don't correspond to standard English pronunciations but rather to regional dialects or foreign accents.  Thus according to the definition they are not eye dialect, yet they are used as examples of eye dialect!  Sluggoster (talk) 11:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the article currently has the problem of having the wrong examples.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

text: (Continued in "Introduction" section below.) Sluggoster (talk) 02:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Or Perhaps eye dialect describing spellings in which the convention violated is one of the eye, not of the ear, and Dialect writing which describes how authors represent genuine differences in pronunciation. 79.197.85.24 (talk) 02:34, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Difference between written dialect and Eye dialect?

message: I disagree with:
For example, an author trying to convey the effect of an uneducated speaker might respell says as sez, reflecting its (perfectly standard) pronunciation as [sɛz]. The line here may sometimes be blurry; for example, going to (in the sense of "he's going to do it") may be pronounced either as ['goʊɪŋ tu] or as ['gʌnə]. Respelling it as gonna does unambiguously identify the latter pronunciation; but since this is already the more common pronunciation in colloquial American English, doing so might be seen as comparable to re-spelling says as sez.
This isn't comparable to a situation where two different people have markedly different pronunciations of the same word. This is a case of two utterances that can frequently come from the same person in different contexts, based on the audience, the register, etc. Sometimes I say "going to" and sometimes I say "gonna". They mean the same thing, but I use them in different contexts. Moreover, when I read going to, I read it as going to. I don't read it as gonna any more than I would read bicycle as bike or vice versa.
Comments?—Largo Plazo 17:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The passage you quote does mention the effect of context/register (identifying  as "the more common pronunciation in colloquial American English"). I'm pretty sure that journalists commonly spell  as <going to> in quotes and whatnot, whereas a journalist would have to be crazy to spell  as <bicycle>; I think that writers who aren't using eye dialect don't generally write <gonna>, either. You really don't think that the situation is at all blurry? —RuakhTALK 17:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, probably. (Read: yeah, prolly.) —Largo Plazo 18:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gonna 

message: The use of eye-dialect is widely discouraged in today’s writing workshops and anyone versed in the craft of writing will tell you this. So the section is not original research. While not all statements in an article need references, when a fact is questioned, references should be provided. In this case the section already had references. The first reference, which is available on-line, states that eye dialect is patronizing and almost always pejorative. It clearly supports the text and is sufficient. 
Although the section could use some copy editing (for example The use of eye dialect could be criticized should be changed to The use of eye dialect is criticized to eliminate the unnecessary use of weasel words), with respect to its containing original research or being insufficiently referenced, I’d say it is fine just the way it is. Mmyotis (talk) 20:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "is often" is the most weasily word you could possibly have chosen. The sources given do not reflect that it has been criticized on an "often" basis. In fact the sources, such as the Finnish one, do not demonstrate any actual criticism at all. The only other source, there is no evidence given that the author is at all notable to be considered a good enough source. He is just some guy that wrote a completely unrelated book that you cherry picked a statement using Google to try and support YOUR views on eye dialect. You need to support your claim that it is "often" criticized, and before you BAWWWWW BAWWWW about it you do not need a hundred citations, you just need a single citation that says it is "often criticized". You can't just make up unsupported statements and critiisms and expect Google to find you sources for your own bias. JayKeaton (talk) 02:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And also you claim that "The use of eye-dialect is widely discouraged" and that "anyone versed in the craft of writing will tell you this". If any expert will tell me this it must be something extremely common and something that is much discussed and eye dialect must be something that is actively criticized to be worth mentioning in an encyclopedia. I encourage you to find genuine sources from the wealth of "anyone['s] versed in the craft of writing" to end this now. I am actually surprised to hear that it is so commonly known and discussed among notable experts, because if this is so I would have assumed that Largo would have long ago found some real citations in his Google searches to back this claim. JayKeaton (talk) 02:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Third Opinion

message: I added the globalize template because I see no reason why the list of authors in the 'use' section are purely American. The article makes no mention that this is a specifically American trait, and it's certainly not confined to American authors.
I suggest revising the list to include Non-American authors before removing the template tag. --59.167.212.218 (talk) 07:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That shouldn't be too hard. Do you know of any British writers who use eye dialect?  I can only think of Shaw, though I didn't include it because I like to stick to sourcing.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 17:03, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm going to remove the tag. A few examples in other languages have been added since the section was tagged almost 3½ years ago. Since this is the English WP, it's not surprising that most of the examples are from that language; including a few examples from other languages may make this article as global as it reasonably can be.--Jim10701 (talk) 05:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Globalisation required 

message: -Just dipping in a toe here, 
''
"Eye dialect is the deliberate use of non-standard spelling to draw attention to pronunciation."''
Could the replacement of the word "pronunciation", with the word "connotation" allow for a more comprehensive understanding of this term? I am an autodidact who hails from the northeastern Ozarks.  When I write in my own voice I make free use of this mechanism.  e.g., "I been waitin' all mornin' for them kidz to show up, and they ain't called or nuthin'!
I acknowledge that this is an example of colloquialism, but by spelling kidz with the "z" is nonstandard spelling and the pronunciation is exactly the same.  What I understand the purpose of "Eye dialect" to be, is to create an impression or make a connotation of character by use of misspelling(s) within a colloquialism. Am I wrong?
An additional question that occurs to me is this: Frequently, in any media that is suggestive of the hillbilly, mirror images of certain letters are common.  For example, the "s" in fishing or fishin' is often reversed, the "r" in for or fer, or the "n" in rent, are common.  This is seen on postcards, in movies, and advertisements using hillbillies.  This is because people who are of this region tend to  do that kind of thing on their hand made signs. This is a fact. 
It seems to me that the "Eye dialect" used in visual media, is to not about pronunciation, but rather connotation, Italic textfor imagery of a given stereotype, in this case, the hillbilly.  My question then is this: does mirroring a letter within a word, fall into the definition of "Eye dialect"?  Thank you Mykalbarton (talk) 21:03, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Just dipping in a toe here

message: What is the origin of the phrase "eye dialect"? Neither Wikipedia nor Wiktionary give this. Wakablogger2 (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good question.  If I remember right, it basically has to do with the idea that since it's a spelling difference to indicate pronunciation that isn't different from the standard, it's a visual rather than auditory cue of dialect. At some point, I'll have to find the source for that.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: For example, women and wimmin are pronounced exactly alike. The use of wimmin intends to tell the eye (and not the ear) that the speaker is uneducated. 167.107.191.217 (talk) 20:59, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason for name 

message: Does his idiosyncratic spelling really count as eye dialect? AFAIK he didn't use simplified spelling as a literary technique or to convey anything about a speaker, he used it indiscriminately throughout his work. I don't think he even intended to "draw attention to pronunciation". He just spelled words the way they are spoken. Calling that eye dialect makes the term overbroad, to include most informal written communication.--87.162.5.253 (talk) 09:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you're saying, though you could be missing something in your reading of his works.  If anything, we can look for sources that back this up and if we find nothing we can remove mention him on concerns of original research.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 22:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the full paragraph, including the correct sentence "a one-man spelling reform", which clearly shows this has nothing to do with eye dialect. 167.107.191.217 (talk) 21:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  JR Jiménez? 

message: I want to change "waz" to "wuz" for the eye dialect version of "was" -- regionalism? I'm in U.S. Midwest, fer yer global speetsh mappin purpusses. That's strange, "fer" and "yer" are not flagged as misspellings.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.87.135.149 (talk) 13:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  waz? 

message: Actually, «что» is always pronounced as «што» in modern Russian, at least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.138.81.124 (talk • contribs) 
:Right.  That's what the article says (I just added "normally" to make it clearer).  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 16:43, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples in other languages 

message: What do you say we add something like, "The rest of this article will focus on eye dialect in the sense of nonstandard spellings that indicate standard pronunciations.  For the indication of nonstandard pronunciations, see Pronunciation spelling"?  Then throw out most or all of the examples from English, or move them to pronunciation spelling. —JerryFriedman  (Talk) 14:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, or "unless otherwise noted, this article will discuss the former definition.  See pronunciation spelling for the latter." — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 18:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

text: Yor both making my day, lifting the veil ov ignorance. Jojalozzo 18:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the encouragement.  I left in the Pratchett and comic references because Pratchett may actually use eye dialect in the original sense (though I don't remember any), and I'm not sure whether we want the comic stuff.  I doubt it though.  Maybe Walt Kelly used some eye dialect? —JerryFriedman  (Talk) 05:00, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Limiting scope of article 

message: In accordance with the discussion above, I'm removing the following text and replacing it with some cited examples of eye dialect in the original sense:
From Joel Chandler Harris's tales of Uncle Remus, set in the U.S. in the post–Civil War South:
:"You er stuck up, dat's w'at you is," says Brer Rabbit, sezee, "'en I'm gwine ter kyore you, dat's w'at I'm a gwine ter do," sezee.
::— "The Wonderful Tar Baby Story"Joe Chandler Harris: The Wonderful Tar Baby Story, in: Uncle Remus, his songs and his sayings (Gutenberg Project)
Eye dialect is also found in representations of the speech of various Londoners in Sherlock Holmes stories. Some of Mark Twain's books are also full of eye dialect, as Simon Wheeler's narrative in "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County", which begins:
:There was a feller here once by the name of Jim Smiley…
Other literary uses of eye dialect are to represent foreign accents, such as in Charles Godfrey Leland's Hans Breitmann's Ballads:
:"D’VAS near de state of Nashfille,   In de town of Tennessee,Der Breitmann vonce vas quarderd   Mit all his cavallrie.Der Sheneral kept him glose in gamp,   He vouldn’t let dem go;Dey couldn’t shdeal de first plack hen,   Or make de red cock crow."
::— Breitmann Goes to Church
Zora Neale Hurston is also a writer well known for the use of eye dialect in her stories about the life of African Americans in the rural southern United States, a fact that has caused some controversy about her stories:
:"Looka theah, folkses!" cried Elijah Mosley, slapping his leg gleefully, "Theah they go, big as life an' brassy as tacks."
::— "Spunk"
One of the most famous instances of eye dialect in literature is in George Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion:
:THE FLOWER GIRL: Ow, eez ye-ooa san, is e? Wal, fewd dan y' de-ooty bawmz a mather should, eed now bettern to spawl a pore gel's flahrzn than ran awy athaht pyin. Will ye-oo py me f'them?
:(Oh, he's your son, is he? Well, if you'd done your duty by him as a mother should, he'd know better than to spoil a poor girl's flowers and then run away without paying. Will you pay me for them?)
An excellent example of the use of eye dialect in the representation of Australian English, for which the eye dialect spelling Strine is sometimes used, is in the book Let Stalk Strine, by Afferbeck Lauder (a pseudonym of Alastair Ardoch Morrison), itself eye dialect for alphabetical order.
The novel They're a Weird Mob uses eye dialect with Australian slang to illustrate the difficulty an Italian immigrant has understanding the Australian accent, for example "Ow yer going' mate orright?".
A further example of eye dialect as it applies to the particular pronunciation of a former English colony is the caricaturisation of the non Boer South African in the seminal book Ah Big Yaws?: A Guard to Sow Theffricun Innglissh by Rawbone Malong.
[...]
Another good example of eye dialect can be seen between Eugene and Pandora in Tiarni Allen's The Brilliant Team:
:"Yew stay 'way from my chillun, ya hear? My hubbin'll sock the like 'f yew eenasecond, and I'm nat one tah step in th' way'f mah man." —JerryFriedman  (Talk) 04:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed text 

message: nonstandard spelling for speech to draw attention to an ironically standard pronunciation. CMON..HUGETSDAD:(  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.86.135.18 (talk) 03:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a better definition? — Æµ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 04:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  BS DEF 

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