Talk:Plzeň

message: Several sources (Britannice, Merriam-Webster) list "Pilsen" as an English and German name alternative. I believe they should remain in the article.
:Not true. Britannica just says "German Pilsen". Merriam-Webster doesn't describe it, it just has a cross-reference, as it has for "Leningrad" and other former names which are still well known. NoPuzzleStranger 30 June 2005 15:43 (UTC)
::The city of Plzen lists "Pilsen" on the English version of its web page. Please stop changing the article simply because of a POV difference.
::http://info.plzen-city.cz/article.asp?sec=5&lang=1033
::Jbetak 30 June 2005 15:45 (UTC)
:::Well, if you consider that decisive, I'm pleased that you will at least give up your reverts on České Budějovice. The city of České Budějovice uses "České Budějovice" on the English version of its web page. http://www.c-budejovice.cz/EN/02/History/ NoPuzzleStranger 30 June 2005 15:53 (UTC)
::::I have just checked that page as well ;-) Still, you have to acknowledge that the changes to the České Budějovice article were initiated by you. The former status quo was obviously supported by a consensus and would be preferable to the current state. Until the question has been resolved. As I have explained before, I have qualms about not paying enough consideration for the rich past of these cities. We could be renaming Prague next - but hey it's just my POV ;-) Jbetak 30 June 2005 16:00 (UTC)
This article is written in English, not Czech. The title should be "Pilsen". --April Arcus 15:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Masterhatch 18:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Pilsen was used in all latin writtings that I've saw in abbeys and priories I visited in South Bohemia, but I am interested in Latin only and not in German or Czech so bear with me. IEEE 14:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Alternatives 

message: Unless someone can come up with a good reason why i shouldn't, I will move this article to its English name (because this is the English section of wikipedia) of Pilsen. Masterhatch 18:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), it is obvious this article should be moved to Pilsen. Masterhatch 19:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You should suggest a move at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Olessi 00:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with renaming. There are many more articles with English versions of names, like Prague (not Praha), Rome (not Roma), Venice (not Venezia). These English versions have long history and abandoning them would be like losing a part of English language heritage. Jan.Kamenicek 14:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The journalistic convention (see examples below) is to use Plzeň in English. English-speakers used to use the German name; now we use the Czech name. valeriet 10:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was moved. Jonathunder 23:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to Pilsen

message: :Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Oppose. Pilsen is an English name of the beer; but I believe the Czech names of Czech cities have become usage since 1918 - except Prague, of course. Would this apply to Karlovy Vary or Bratislava? Septentrionalis
*Comment Well, i assume that if Carlsbad and Pressburg are the most common names in English for those cities, i would have to say "yes". Article titles should be in the most common English name (according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)) Masterhatch 02:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment. The only important thing is whether it is well-established, not whether it requires diacritics (there can always be a redirect omitting the diacrictics). Jan.Kamenicek 15:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment: But the English version of the city's website is clearly translated by a Czech, not by a native English speaker. valeriet 
*Oppose. I was going to support but then I noticed that neither Britannica nor Encarta use the proposed name.   Haukur 11:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Comment: I'm merely saying that this issue looks pretty closely related to a precedent case (see: Talk:WikiProject Cities/Names issues and Talk:Danzig).  Valentinian (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: I removed the following sentence, as a factual error.
:The Yalta Conference placed Czechoslovakia in Soviet sphere of influence and Patton had to withdraw shortly after the armistice.
Reading the Yalta Accords will show that they do not mention Czechoslovakia or any part of it. I suppose there will be a revert war here; but I hope that the copyedit preceeding will be left alone. Septentrionalis 15:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yalta

message: *The advertising for the development of the Škoda works is advertising and crystal-ballery; neither is appropriate here. 
*Portland, Oregon is necessary for disambiguation; see Portland, Maine. 
*If the book printed here deals with the Matter of Troy, the English adjective is Trojan. Septentrionalis 15:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Names on a map is often more than an emotional dispute; it is a very political dispute. On the European mainland, the use of German language forms for East European locations outside of Germany's post-1945 borders is very often - rightly or wrongly - interpreted as support for German expansionism. This issue is - thank God - not at the agenda of the German government, but fear of it rests very deep in the minds of many of Germany's neighbours. I'm well aware that this was not the motivation behind the votes for "Pilsen" cast here, but using German forms for non-German areas is a controversial path to take. Valentinian (talk) 00:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an argument for a change of policy. This is not the place for that; try Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (places) or the Village pump. Septentrionalis 20:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other notes

message: In the Polish material, the issue resulted in a pretty heated arguement. (see: Talk:WikiProject Cities/Names issues and Talk:Danzig), and the result was that the German names is used in some historical contexts, and the native name in modern contexts. In the Polish material, the native name is used everywhere except Warsaw. Encarta sticks to the Czech name as well. . Valentinian (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Names on a map is often more than an emotional dispute; it is a very political dispute. On the European mainland, the use of German language forms for East European locations outside of Germany's post-1945 borders is very often - rightly or wrongly - interpreted as support for German expansionism. This issue is - thank God - not at the agenda of the German government, but fear of it rests very deep in the minds of many of Germany's neighbours. I'm well aware that this was not the motivation behind the votes for "Pilsen" cast here, but using German forms for non-German areas is a controversial path to take. Valentinian (talk) 00:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an argument for a change of policy. This is not the place for that; try Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (places) or the Village pump. Septentrionalis 20:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Similar case with Poland

message: User:Yup! said in an edit summary, "No one has proved Pilsen is less common than Plzeň in English. The city is used to using the name "Plzeň" on its intl website, and I, as a resident, can tell it's far more known abroad than "Plzeň". (I think he meant "using the name 'Pilsen' on its intl website".)
Re: --Yup! 16:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Google results are not authoritative. You may not sound rude but you do sound a touch  hysterical. GraemeLeggett 08:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Most common name used in English

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Oppose. No new evidence. English usage is changing on such names, but Wikipedia policy is to follow the change not lead it. Let's move on. Andrewa (talk) 19:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted this-- Matthead  Discuß   07:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: IPs do not have suffrage, and your argument is silly, can you type coöperation, née or naïve on your 'English' (presumably actually an American) keyboard? +Hexagon1 (t) 08:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Presumably actually an American"?  Nice.  Of course, only Americans are churlish, arrogant, and unilateral enough to want to control their own language.  On the other hand, that IP was actually from Quebec, Canada.  May I presume you are typing on an anti-American keyboard, Hexagon1? Erudy (talk) 16:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I am typing on a US keyboard, from Australia, as we speak. I find that far more than actual anti-Americanism, there is a massive wave of American insecurity (not everything is an insult). My point was that there isn't even an 'English' keyboard, UK keyboards do actually have diacritical signs in them to facilitate wring words like the ones above. +Hexagon1 (t) 04:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Not that this is a vote, but IPs do have "suffrage" insofar as it exists. It's the argument that counts, not the source. On the substance: why Hexagon supposes that ň appears on keyboards in England (or, say, Australia or Scotland) is beyond me. His examples cast doubt on his fluency in English of any variety; coöperation is dropping out of use in those dialects which retain it, and naïve has been archaic for a century. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:21, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, IPs have the same right to not vote in this not-vote.  They have just as much right to bring up this tired argument which has no support in policy for good reason.  There is neither need nor obligation for these characters on the reader's keyboard.  (On a side note, the claim of the archaism of naïve is equally baseless  - and they're just those that OCR correctly...) Knepflerle (talk) 23:19, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Fair enough, I was unaware they had the same rights in this regard. I typed that ň on a Mac US International keyboard, a simple procedure indeed ([Option-v] [n]), and your assertions cast doubt on your literacy, I encounter these quite frequently, in fact the New Yorker uses them as standard. Oh, and please desist the ad hominem attacks, Pmanderson. +Hexagon1 (t) 04:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Stating that what the majority of English-language sources use is not English is a touch surreal. Knepflerle (talk) 22:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you're wrong, are you forgetting WP:Rumping'sUsageIsAuthoritative? :) +Hexagon1 (t) 04:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

text:  Really, yes. www.pilsen.eu redirects to www.plzen.eu, which of course is the main domain used by the city, as hardly surprising they use Plzen in Czech context - but Pilsen in English/German. The domains www.pilsen.cz and www.plzen.cz are owned by rather unrelated private sites. What stands out right on top off the city's website is the Logo/Image used in all three languages, displaying Pilsen (small) and Plzen (larger), indicating that they (unlike others) are comfortable with the historic spelling. If you disapprove of Czech city officials, musicians and sportsteams using Pilsen, well, you've got to tell them, not me. BTW: will you also request moves of Cologne to Köln and Munich to München? The American Football teams in these cities use the English spelling, too (see German Bowl). -- Matthead  Discuß   00:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Köln and München are not used in English, period. They're the German names of two German cities. "Plzeň" is the current name of a Czech city, also widely used in English. "Pilsen" is the old German name of that city, still used in German and English, but falling in disuse in the latter. Húsönd 15:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, Pilsen is sometimes used.  The policy however says we use the most common name.  You have only shown that the less common name is still occasionally used - that doesn't change the decision at all. Knepflerle (talk) 08:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey 2

message: I've inserted Fred Klein.  On his websites there are some more informations about Plzeň history to be found, in addition to the glimpses into his personal life.
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.205.163 (talk) 08:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: -- 88.72.21.223 (talk) 21:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.193.30 (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Read WP:N--Yopie 00:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Insert

message: A user added him has a notable Plzeň person, another user deleted him as not notable.  I have never heard of the fellow, his notability concerns something I have absolutely no knowledge of or interest in, but he does have a non-stub/start Wiki page.  I assume that qualifies as notable. Choor monster (talk) 16:18, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Martin Jůza]] 

message: The English wikipedia is more important than some users understand, since a lot of articles in smaller European languages are just copied from English (eg to from English Wiki to Swedish wiki). It is important that Czech users (and i suppose less travelled American users) to understand that in most European languages we say Pilsen. Plzen is a very confusing spelling for Europeans in general. Most Europeans couldn't tell how to pronounce it. 78.71.209.195 (talk) 10:34, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed multiple times, and the general consensus is to keep it as Plzeň.  As per WP:NCUE, the most common name in English should be used; it doesn't matter if it is called Pilsen in other European countries.  Movement to Pilsen should be done on a language-by-language basis. Lxxl (talk) 00:10, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please rename the article to its correct English (and in general European form) Pilsen 

message: Just an observation: the current name is not English, it's Czech. Nothing wrong with Czech, but very few English speakers can read it. For centuries it's been known in English as Pilsen; it is clearly way more common than Plzeň, which BTW is almost unpronounceable to an English speaker. Just take a look at e.g. Pilsen/Plzeň on Google ngram viewer which records the hits of both names in English sources and town/city of Pilsen/Plzeň which clearly is not about the beer. So calling the place Plzeň clearly fails WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH, despite attempts to claim the opposite. We should not be surprised that the name Pilsen is well known and recognised, not least because the beer, known as Pils (not Plz), is world famous. Nonsense like this may please native speakers (I admit even we English prefer "London" to "Londres", but not on French Wikipedia!), but it does nothing for Wikipedia's usability or credibility. Bermicourt (talk) 08:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Start another RM then, I'm quite neutral on Plzeň/Pilsen (as the German name is still used in English) but you lost me at "unpronounceable to an English speaker" which is quite irrelevant to article title policy. Renaming Czech town articles to their historic German names just because they might be "easier to pronounce" certainly does nothing for Wikipedia's credibility either. The ngram test as well as 's trends test in the last RM above both fail to take into account that there are places in the US called Pilsen, and the Google Trends results suggest the search results from the US are heavily concerned with those. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 10:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plzeň - really?