Talk:Johannes Lucius

message: Quote from [] page; "Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language" Trogir is known in English language as Trogir, not Trau:) And that is also its historical name (on Croatian language). 
Also Marulić is an Croatian writer (father of croatian literature).
|Ceha 18:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of Trogir

message: Edit made by 109.60.25.15 on 09:50, 2 June 2010, was mine. I forget to log in. Sorry. Kebeta (talk) 09:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol Lucius has got a double passport??? oh dear.. --Theirrulez (talk) 15:39, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Almost as funny as having a passport to a city hundreds of kilometers away from his birth town.--Jesuislafete (talk) 22:34, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You seems a bit confused. Just as information passports are to states not to cities. And if a person was born in lands which that time and for centuries were part of the Venetian Republic  are Venetian for sure, and, despite your pov, certainly not Croatian, where there wasn't any Croatia that time yet, and however not there.--Theirrulez (talk) 01:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: People who call POV on others are almost always guilty of it themselves, in your case, 100%. You find the need to edit out Croatian articles and hide behind the "Venetian" citizen route. Just because Croatia was not independent is no reason to deny them of their people and heritage. How can he be called Venetian during such a time of occupation and gray lines in nationality? --Jesuislafete (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Log in 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: While I think the disupte above is rather ridiculous (of course the guy was simply a Dalamatian like all the others living there at the time, neither "Italian" nor "Croatian" in the modern sense make any sense), I would like to contest the article name. Why should it be the German version of the name, of all the possibilites, that names that article? Latin would be Ioannes Lucius, Italian Giovanni Lucio, Croatian Ivan Lučić. --Anvilaquarius (talk) 16:13, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I see that another user has already beaten me to the punch, but this page is yet another instance of the silliness that pervades every Wikipedia article related to the western Balkans.
First of all, the question of Giovanni Lucio's ethnic origins is beyond question - the Lucii were an ancient Venetian noble family of whom the Dalmatian Lucii were only one branch. See:
https://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/lang/it/cognomi/Lucio/idc/8557/idt/en/#
As for the question of what he considered to be his nationality, he clearly states that he is writing in the spoken "volgare" (dialect) of his fellow Dalmatians of Traù, and throughout every portion of the text clearly distinguishes between Dalmati, Slavi and Croati. Furthermore, that he considered the language of Traù to be the idiom in which he writes, and that he considered himself a Dalmatian speaking the aforesaid language, and that he considered Dalmatians on one hand and Slavs or Croatians on the other to be different people, is clear from even a cursory look at Lucio's Historia di Dalmatia et in particolare delle Città di Traù e Sebenico. Page numbers are from the Internet Archive scan at https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_Zv1VRc8avowC. I'm not much of a translator, so I'll try to give it word-for-word.
Page 16 (Preface):
"Hora dovendo scrivere le Memorie di Traù mia Patria, ho voluto valermi della moderna, ò volgare, che non più Italiana, che Dalmatina può dirsi; onde havendo havuto riguardo solamente d'usar parole, che siano intese da' Dalmatini, sarò scusato se non scrivo Toscanamente.
"Essendosi dunque nell'opera predetta, con le cose seguite, narrati anco li costumi universali di Dalmatia, e Croatia, da quali depende la notitia de particolari della Patria..."
"Now having to write the Memoirs of Traù my Homeland, I have desired to avail myself of the modern, or vulgar [language], which as much Italian as Dalmatian can be called; thus having taken care only to use words that are understood by the Dalmatians, I will be pardoned if I do not write in the Tuscan manner.
"Having, in the aforementioned work, with the things followed, narrated also the universal costumes of Dalmatia, and Croatia, upon which depend the description of the particulars of [my] Homeland..."
Page 22:
"...fù dunque dalli scrittori Greci Traguron detto, e da Romani Tragurium; sussequentemente poi doppo la declinatione dell'Imperio degl'Orientali Latino Greci, che l'antica lingua Greca alterarono Tetragurion, come pure nell'idioma latino corrotto sino l'anno 1400, Tragura, e d'indi Tragù, e Trahu, hoggi finalmente Traù, & in Slavo Trogir, e questo quanto al nome."
"...it was therefore called Traguron by the Greek writers, and by the Romans Tragurium; [it was] subsequently after the decline of the Latin Empire of the Eastern Greeks, that the ancient Greek language they altered [into] Tetragurion, as also in the Latin idiom corrupt since the year 1400, Tragura, and from there Tragù, and Trahu, [and] today finally Traù, and in Slavic Trogir, and this is all regarding the name."
Page 24/25:
"Sussequentemente poi i Dalmatini s'accostarono à Carlo Magno, e di nuovo furono fatti ritornare sotto à Greci fino all'Imperio di Michel Balbo Amorco, per la dapocagine del quale abbandonati, e postisi in libertà, furono necessitati accostarsi à Venetiani per difendersi unitamente dagl'insulti de Saraceni, e Slavi; e se bene assunto all'Imperio Basilio Macedone mandò l'armata in Golfo in soccorso di Dalmatini; nientedimeno per non far guerra insieme con Saraceni, e Slavi si contentò, che li medesimi Dalmatini constituissero certo tributo alli Slavi, accioche potessero più facilmente resistere alli Saraceni; ma declinando doppo la morte di Basilio vie più le cose dell'Imperio, e gli Slavi sottrattisi dall'Imperio de Franchi giornalmente occupuando à Dalmati più Isole, furono questi necessitati per la lor debolezza ricorrere alla potenza de Venetiani, ch'ogni giorno diveniva più vigorosa, come è stato descritto..."
"Then subsequently the Dalmatians approached Charlemagne, and once more were made to return under the Greeks until the rule of Michael II the Amorian, by reason of whose incompetence [they were] abandoned, and having put themselves in freedom, were required to bring themselves close to Venice to defend themselves together from the offenses of the Saracens, and Slavs; and though [once having] become Emperor Basil the Macedon sent the army to the Gulf in aid of the Dalmatians; nevertheless, so as not to have to make war against Saracens and Slavs together he contented himself by [having] the selfsame Dalmatians send a particular tribute to the Slavs, so as to be able to more easily resist the Saracens; but declining after the death of Basil even more the possessions of the Empire, and the Slavs, having removed themselves from the Empire of the Franks, daily occupying more islands from the Dalmatians, these (the Dalmatians) were required by reason of their weakness to seek the power of the Venetians, which from day to day became more potent, as has been described..."
So to recap: Giovanni Lucio is a self-declared Dalmatian of Traù, who is writing in the modern dialect of the aforementioned city, which is different from Italian (the Tuscan of Dante), so that his fellow Dalmatians may understand; he tells us that his city is now known as Traù, and in the language of the Slavs, one of whom he is not, Traù is called Trogir; and finally, he does us the favour of slaughtering one of the sacred cows of Yugoslav and Croatian historiography in telling us that Dalmatia came under Venetian rule not by force but for the purpose of mutual defence against the attacks of Saracens and Slavs. I don't know how anyone can look at this and say this is the "father of Croatian historiography." Wannabe rockstar (talk) 00:37, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Father of modern Croatian historiography" - here we go again