Talk:Demographic history of Jerusalem

message: "Writing in 1841, the biblical scholar Edward Robinson noted the conflicting demographic estimates regarding Jerusalem during the period, stating in reference to an 1839 estimate by Moses Montefiore: "As to the Jews, the enumeration in question was made out by themselves, in the expectation of receiving a certain amount of alms for every name returned. It is therefore obvious that they here had as strong a motive to exaggerate their number, as they often have in other circumstances to underrate it."
The Montefiore headcount of 1839 was not an estimate, but a detailed census. The census is available online and lists every person by full name, age and place of birth (in total 1,617 families in Jerusalem). How is it an estimate or an exaggeration?
Additionally, Robinson adds right after this neatly severed quote: "Besides, this number of 7000 rests merely on report; Sir Moses himself has published nothing on the subject; nor could his agent in London afford me any information so late as Nov. 1840." So he wasn't addressing the census at all, but some rumor.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.162.66 (talk) 14:28, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I ran a small test. Counting the members of 300 Sephardi families (out of 1,362 in total) I found 854 individuals, making the average Sephardi family in 1839 2.84 members strong. The total number of Sephardis would thus be around 3,877. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.37.128.97 (talk) 21:12, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: How is a ‘small test’ relevant in response to a factual demographic count? 49.184.149.207 (talk) 10:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Montefiore 1839 "estimates" exaggerated

message: Your 1905 Census showing 13,000 Jews of a 32,000 populaion is Off the Wall wrong:
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Jerusalem Growth
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08364a.htm 
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(Catholic Ency, Edition VIII, 1910)
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"..5. Present condition of the city (1905)
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Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. 
- 
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The total population is estimated at 66,000. 
- The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures: Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the Nineteenth century Large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly Half the present population..""
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Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present
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....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
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1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000 -
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1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270 ....... The First Official Ottoman Census
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1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030 .......Second """"""""""
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1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900 ..... Third/last, detailed Catholic Encyc above
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1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000
http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm"]http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm
 -
-   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.254.20.88 (talk) 12:42, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to help here, using reputable sources and noting each figure. If there is competing data, we should list it her (such as the 1948 UN estimate) it should be included.  The Mideast web data looks quite solid, though.  --Goodoldpolonius2 06:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent work. I've moved the Focus on Jerusalem link to external links since it is not a source. I'm inclined to delete it entirely unless someone objects.--DieWeibeRose 07:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No problem - the table there is the population of districts, not cities. The Jerusalem district was much larger than the actual city, including other towns and villages. I believe it included Bethlehem, for instance. As that article explains, Palestine was divided into 16 districts, named after the major city they contained. okedem (talk) 14:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Factual accuracy dispute 

message: Do you guys envision a place for the deleted Intercommunal relations section in a separate article or in some other existing article? The content was merged from Jerusalemite, which is now a redirect, after some discussion there. nadav (talk) 20:06, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to be the same kind of information that exists on so many of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict pages. If there is an especially germane fact, then it should be merged. My specific rationale:
*the "Qudsi" line seems to be the only really encyclopaedic bit, but it is extrapolated from a vaguely worded comment by the writer of the feature. If the phenomena is truly notable, it should have better sourcing.
*Catholic relations bit should be in one of the religion Jerusalem subarticles, or due to its broad scope, in Religion in Israel or Roman Catholicism in Israel, assuming that the source is judged reliable (of which I'm not certain, though the phenomena may be accurate).
*If there will be a discussion of the level of social interaction between the demographic groups, it should be multiply sourced to discussion of Jerusalem's unique situation, and not based on a noncentral aside mentioned in a thesis on the related but not on-topic issue of film as a conduit to dialogue.
*Facts about the al-Aqsa Intifada and Status of East Jerusalem residents are amply mentioned in those entries.
To reiterate, we shouldn't be repeating information about the general conflict here, and if we are going to create a socialogic discussion, then it should have high-quality relevant and explicit sourcing. TewfikTalk 02:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intercommunal relations 

message: "In 985 the Arab writer Muqaddasi stated that "The mosque is empty. The Jews constitute the majority of Jerusalem’s population".Jewish history timeline"
Hi all, this is a very nice quote but on its own, without any context explaining the shifts after the Muslim invasion, it seems out of place. It also comes across as an attempt to say the Jews were were before the Palestinians. It would be nice to see the quote re-inserted. Please find a way to balance it within some context. Thanks, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 06:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Muqaddasi quote

message: I came here open-minded, but I have to say, the table is very very strange. I get the impression the table's starting point seems to be the Jewish population (Did I misunderstand?) This seems a bit strange on a page that is not titled: "Jewish presence in Jerusalem" but rather "Demographics of Jerusalem." A single table on Jerusalem's population, not focused exclusively, or mainly, on the Jewish population, could not be found? Am I completely off here? Can someone please explain? LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 07:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. The problem was probably some confusion between plurality (largest community, compared to Muslims and Christians), and majority (above 50% of the total population). I rewrote that sentence to clarify. okedem (talk) 16:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Population Table 

message: This page is about the demographic HISTORY of Jerusalem - can we please change the title.88.110.137.157 (talk) 23:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Request to change title of page

message: As currently written, the article seems to be trying to prove a point. As most of the numbers pre-20th century are estimates from foreign travellers rather than official figures, some discussion about the robustness of the historical numbers would be merited. Particularly in light of the fact that each of these foreign travellers had their own agendas for providing the data. Also some historical context behind the moving numbers would be helpful - e.g. Pre-Zionist Aliyah and Tanzimat.88.110.137.157 (talk) 23:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. I have made an effort to add more numbers, and add some historical context. Am struggling to identify some of the underlying sources though. 88.110.197.165 (talk) 23:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion of numerical accuracy

message: i reverted the recent changes because i noticed some unexplained content removals such as this described as "tidying up." I encourage any changes to be made clear, consistent with sourcing, and with correct edit summaries. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The edits were not been explained, but that does not challenge their validity - it's not acceptable to revert all changes on that basis. You can see from the history that many edits were made - there was no attempt to hide anything. This is not a complex article, so we can discuss here - it's not reasonable to ask me to go back and change one by one. The article is clearly much improved now - obviously keen to improve further so please don't hold back on commenting on the content. Re your specific point, the deletion of the reference to King David founding in 3,000BC was because was just obviously incorrect - see any of the history-related articles on Jerusalem in WP.Oncenawhile (talk) 04:43, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  changes by User:Oncenawhile 

message: A very detailed table with additional sources here - I will add when I have a moment. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:20, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have that book, in case there is something Google won't let you see..  Zerotalk 14:17, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: New Sources

message: jewish.history.com does not appear to satisfy the requirements of WP:RS.  As it says on the page, their "timeline" is based on a document presented by the Vaad Leumi to the UN in 1947 – in other words, on a document produced for propagandistic purposes.  I will replace the counts from that document by those in an eminent source (Cohen and Lewis) which devotes 23 pages to the registers of 1525-1596.  The Ottoman tax registers counted four types of person: heads of households, bachelors, religious men (usually only Muslim clerics included), and disabled men.  It did not count adult men.  These were classified into quarters and religious group. Numbers for the total population are given by some authors by multiplying households by a guess at the average size of the household.  For example, Sharkansky has clearly calculated 6*324+13+1=1958, there being 324 households, 13 bachelors and 1 disabled.  Bernard Lewis preferred the factor of 5.  We can just give the raw data. Zerotalk 14:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Zero, agree this is a much better and more comprehensive source - good work. Not sure about the way the new data is shown though - it's a bit complex to follow. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, but what is a better way to show it?  Zerotalk 00:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  It would be my preference to use the Sharkansky method to add up the numbers, with each calculation explained clearly in the footnote. Would be much more user friendly whilst not losing any of the data. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, but let's use the multiplying factor suggested in this source.  I left the book at work today, so I'll check tomorrow. Zerotalk 10:07, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  C&L say that scholars have suggested multipliers between 5 and 7, and they prefer the "conjectural" multiplier of 6.  So one thing we can do is present 6*(households+religious)+bachelors+disabled.  It has an element of OR about it, but maybe not too much to get away with.  An alternative is to simply add the four numbers and call it "adult men".  That would be more precise but less useful to a casual reader. Zerotalk 10:29, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Personally I think the 6 multiplier makes for easier understand than the "adult men" version, as is much more comparable. And i definitely don't think it is OR, because you have mentioned a number of RS which use and discuss the multiplier. The only question in my mind is which multiplier to use, and 6 seems to be around the middle of the sources you have quoted. Perhaps "notes" with the calculations, with the number 6 referenced to the RS? Oncenawhile (talk) 01:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm onto it. Zerotalk 02:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Zero, just to say thanks - it looks great. Interesting to see that the population seems to have trebled in 30 years after the ottomans took over. Oncenawhile (talk) 16:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious web page 

message: In addition to the debate about sources here (i.e. regarding different travelers to the land and their methods or biases); all sources say land ownership in Jerusalem even up till 1945 was almost all Arab  The land ownership breakdown in 1945 for Jerusalem: 84% Arab owned, 2% Jewish owned, 14% Public and other: . Anybody have information related to this, where were different Jewish settlers (primarily from Europe) living in this period? Obviously they had to have a roof over their head and not be living outside, were they living mostly in property that was Arab owned? Any scholarly info on this would be of interest.Historylover4 (talk) 06:56, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debate about sources and info on land ownership in Jerusalem up to 1945 

message: This pro-Palestinian website cites the work of the British Mandate authorities in Palestine in 1946 "A Survey of Palestine"  
Discussing the Jerusalem Sub-District , note the map, overall it says the Jerusalem Sub-District's total 1946 population was: 253,270; with 104,460 being "Moslems" (42.24%), 102,520 being "Jews" (40.48%), and 46,130 being "Christians" (18.21%). Info should be made about the different regions of the Sub-District of Jerusalem itself.Historylover4 (talk) 07:37, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Jerusalem Sub-District was a lot larger than Jerusalem.  There were lots of extra villages (mostly Muslim) included.  However you added the numbers to a table about Jerusalem.  You can find the figures for Jerusalem on the previous page (p 151). Zerotalk 10:07, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  British Mandate of Palestine source Survey of Palestine 1946 

message: It seems to me that many of the items in this list are not much about demographic history at all, but are just historical dates with little consistency.  Who will object if I prune it? Zerotalk 09:51, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section "Demographic key dates" 

message: In considering the population of the city during the Roman period, we are given these two points:
* "The population of Jerusalem in the time of Josephus has been estimated to be around 80,000" 
* "During the first Jewish-Roman war (66–73 CE) the population of Jerusalem was estimated at 600,000 persons by Roman historian Tacitus, while Josephus, estimated that there were as many as 1,100,000, who were killed in the war."
First, the second point is really two totally distinct points, as well as being unclear.  Were 1.1 million killed all through Judea?  Roman and Jewish casualties?  Just native population?  What?  And by commingling these two points, one can read in an implication that Josephus was saying Tacitus was wrong with his estimate, i.e. "If 1.1 million were killed, how could the population only have been 600K?"  The best assumption is that 1.1 million were killed for the course of the entire war, Roman and Jewish casualties alike, but this needs to be clarified.
Second, the implication of these two statements together is that the population of Jerusalem dropped by an entire order of magnitude between 66 CE and "Josephus' time", i.e. before 100 CE.  That's absolutely possible, of course--it was a brutal war--but is that really the case?  Did the population of Jerusalem really drop from 600K to 80K in less than 20 years?  Again, this needs to be clarified.
There's also no information about Demographics from Josephus' time to the Middle Ages--a gap of about 1000 years, which is pretty significant.  Does someone have the information for this period?  
I apologize for merely bringing up the issues without suggesting fixes, but extensive googling has not helped me clarify these points, so I thought I'd throw them out there for people to discuss and hope there was someone on the board more of a historian than myself. :) Dougom (talk) 02:41, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical population figures 

message: Your 1905 Census showing 13,000 Jews out of 32,000 total population is Very wrong.
Catholic encylopedia (1907 edition)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08364a.htm
[.....]
"Present condition of the city"
Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. 
[b]The total population is estimated at 66,000. 
The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures: Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; [/b]Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites,ú Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly half the present population.
 
See also the MANY estimates on Table 2 just a slight but down in his link.
Almost all about 45,000 out of 66,000. 
http://books.google.com/books?id=f_ABAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=ottoman+census+1905,+jerusalem&source=bl&ots=9VXBqpeNgV&sig=U2cyPxxOzLouWTr3PoewbpaJkF4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Dh8FVIWmMs2nggT0oICIAg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=ottoman%20census%201905%2C%20jerusalem&f=false
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.254.20.88 (talk) 02:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Our modern academic source is much stronger than a 1907 encyclopaedia.  I checked the source and it contains the numbers in our table.  However, the source makes it clear that only Ottoman citizens are counted yet most of the Jews and many Christians were not Ottoman citizens.  I put that information in. Zerotalk 03:54, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy dispute 

message: The 1721 burning of the Hurva synagogue and expulsion of Ashkenazim should be listed among Demographic key dates. The quota imposed on Jews up until 1799 (in the mid-17th century it was 500, later on reportedly 2,000) could also be mentioned in the article, although it wasn't always implemented. --ארינמל (talk) 22:41, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? Onceinawhile (talk) 09:14, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Plenty of primary sources, but since it has to be secondary how about this: "Finally, in 1721, their Muslim creditors, tired of waiting for their money and seeing their repeated warnings go unheeded, destroyed the synagogue. The Ashkenazis were driven from the city, and after that any European Jew caught in Jerusalem was liable to be held for the outstanding debts." - Between Redemption and Revival: The Jewish Yishuv of Jerusalem in the Nineteenth Century by Jeff Halper.--ארינמל (talk) 22:58, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good. But it doesn't mention the quota, and it seems important to mention the context. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:02, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Restrictions on Jews

message: The article is very sloppy at present. What is the purpose of providing estimates of the population without any context? Take Nahmanides for example. Quoting him on finding two Jews in Jerusalem in 1267 (his estimates of 300 Christians and 1,700 Muslims were left out for some reason) without his account of the Jewish community having been slain by the sword or fled in 1260 is simply pointless. The tables should serve as a visualization following a description of each period.
I also have to question the division of the tables into Muslim and Jewish relative majority. Why make this distinction? Wouldn't a written description of the changing majority followed by a single table suffice without this extra emphasis? Besides, several estimates of a Jewish relative majority were made between 1750 and 1830, and the accuracy of most sources prior to the 20th century is limited. There were even some 19th century estimates of a Christian majority. With regard to the Jews, certain Christian groups had an agenda of emphasizing their return to the Holy Land. For the Ottoman registers I would quote an early 18th century account of the many measures taken by the Jewish community to avoid taxation, which included hiding in the streets. Jews also have a religious opposition to being counted (Hosea 1:10), which at least one European traveler wrote about. The Muslims, besides taxation, also had to worry about enlistment, and their female population largely remained at home. For the 1931 census Muslim women and girls were counted through locked doors. --ארינמל (talk) 06:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Please go ahead and add the context, assuming you will bring reliable sources to support it. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:02, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm barred from altering this article until I have five hundred edits to my name, but I've started working. --ארינמל (talk) 11:11, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Put your wording here and i’ll add it. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical context

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article is about the demographic history of Jerusalem. What value do you think a completely off the mark estimate bring? ImTheIP (talk) 15:21, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: True story, I googled "Jerusalem population first century" and this article was the first hit and in Google's "quick answer" box the figure 600,000 was given. That peeved me off, so I deleted the incorrect figures. Yes, we could could Josephus and Tacitus and other antique writers numbers by writing "They say X. However, modern historians believe those figures are exaggerated ... " But I imagine historical "bad guesses" are just not very useful information for people reading this article who are interested in Jerusalem's demographic history. I'd be interested what others have to say. ImTheIP (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I find the history of estimates interesting. How about this: instead of starting with the ancient estimates and then qualifying them, put the modern estimates in the body of the text and mention the ancient estimates as no longer accepted in a footnote attached to them. Zerotalk 01:26, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: A certain amount of 'correcting errors' has some value, too.  It can stop well-meaning people from trying to add the "right" answer by acknowledging its existence and explaining that it isn't right. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why include false information? 

message: Change: while Josephus estimated that there were as many as 1,100,000 who were killed in the war.
To: while Josephus estimated that there were as many as 1,100,000 who were killed in the war but specified that this number included people who did not belong to the city itself.
Quote from the source: ... the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; Olssy (talk) 16:07, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: . I also added a link to the translated Tufts thing. SWinxy (talk) 22:38, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 June 2022 

message: Jewish immigration to Palestine from mid 19th century onward is well mentioned but significant Arab immigration is not. Why is this? 45.48.31.133 (talk) 18:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muslim immigration not included 

message: The quote runs
Ludwig August Frankl (1858). Nach Jerusalem!: Palästina. Nies'sche Buchdruckerei (Carl B. Lorch). Die Gesammtzahl der Juden in der heiligen Stadt ist nach amtlicher Erhebung 5,700 Seelen; sie stellt somit den dritten Theil der Gesammtbevölkerung dar, welche 18,000 Seelen umfaßt, und überragt die christliche um das Doppelte. Jerusalem zählt 3000 Christen, darunter 1000 Lateiner und 2000 Griechen und Armenier. Von den Juden sind 1700 österreichische Unterthanen und in Schuß Genommene, während Desterreich nur 100 christliche Unterthanen, alle Secten zusammengenommen, in der heiligen Stadt zählt.
but "Destereich" must be a scanning error or typo for "Österreich" (Austria), since we are talking about Austrian subjects "österreichische Unterthanen". 213.47.79.152 (talk) 17:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typo in German Quote Fn 48 

message: In the section "Muslim or Jewish "relative majority"" in the table the line for 1850 is unsourced and should be removed from the table as it is the only unsourced entry. Galdrack (talk) 19:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a "Full citation needed" tag to the source the table gave instead of just removing the row. Shadow311 (talk) 18:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Muslim or Jewish "relative majority""