Talk:Pursuit of Nazi collaborators/Archive 1

message: I moved the page to one less offensive and intrinsicly POV. I hope thats ok w everyone. cheers, Sam [Spade] 18:33, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No. First, title of this page is controversial topic, it's better to discuss before doing such radical change. Second, current title is at least as POVed as the previous, only the opposite way. Do you thing victims of alleged collaborators who were allegedly murdered e.g. in so called "concentration camps" would find this way of writing less offensive? "Alleged" may be understood  "not proved". --Wikimol 08:14, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, this page was never intended to discuss the legal treatment of convicted war criminals. We already have War criminal. This is about vengence against suspected or actual war colaborators, a completely different subject. Thomas Jefferson for President 22:24, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: "Less offensive"? Are you offended by the pursuit of Nazi collaborators? If so, why? I've moved the page back until there is consensus on this matter. --Viriditas 22:41, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course I am, and I am offended by this page title and the assumptions it makes. Thomas Jefferson for President 00:04, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please qualify your statement.  Why are you offended by the pursuit of Nazi collaborators? --Viriditas 00:06, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Pursuit isn't accurate for this subject, the article isn't about some sort of chase, its about the vengence that was meted out. "Nazi collaborators" is also POV, essentially none of these people were given the benefit of a fair trail. Thomas Jefferson for President 00:59, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Pursuit appears to be more neutral than other terms.  As for vengeance, that is a POV term, while others might phrase it as "justice".  Regarding Nazi collaborators, that seems to be an accurate term for the description of people who worked with the Nazis.  As for whether or not these people were given a fair trial, you seem to be imposing your own historical and cultural revisionism on the topic.   Fair trials were hardly possible for Nazi collaborators, or anyone else in that region at the time.  So in this context, your appeal to a right to a fair trial is an anachronism; fair trials weren't even endorsed by the UN until 1948, and to this day they are not internationally enforced.  While I think you have a valid point that deserves to be discussed in the article, I don't see how this effects the title in any way. --Viriditas 07:24, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Fron the article:"Several organizations have hunted for and pursued people...The hunt for Nazi collaborators, according to some advocates...Immediately after liberation of Czechoslovakia by Soviet and American armies, in atmosphere of chaos, wild chase started." Obviously, purusit may result in capture, and punishment. --Viriditas 07:24, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page moved 

message: Can we please put the TOC beneath an introductory paragraph?  --Viriditas 09:44, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice job! --Viriditas 05:53, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table of Contents 

message: I reviewed the talk, and the concensus thruout has been, and is still, that the page title is/was unnacceptable. I moved the page accordingly. Sam [Spade] 16:24, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That simply isnt true. Reverting. I´d like to try next stept in peaceful conflict resolution and conduct a survey. (Wikipedia:Survey guidelines). Would you participate? Propsal of survey is bellow. --Wikimol 22:02, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

message: :This is a proposal, not actual poll. Please comment on proposal, do not vote (yet). 
...actual poll moved to separate section...
--Wikimol 22:02, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Good proposal if you assume we cannot find a solution by regular discussion. Why do you think so? Get-back-world-respect 23:18, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Sam keeps moving the page, for one. --Viriditas 20:24, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't figure out where everything is any more. Jayjg 20:29, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Sam Spade allready casted RfC on this. Propably as a result new users engadeg, particulary FT2 much improved the article. IMO, prevailing opinion on title is it is ok as long as there is NPOV explanation of alleged/actual/just/unjust/... in article body. Sam's opinion is there is consensus on moving. Some "more objective" measure of consensus can resolve this. --Wikimol 21:40, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: If enough people feel there is an issue to discuss, then a vote is a sensible way to discuss it. FT2 00:39, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
Yes keep the name, No why do you need a "poll"? Is that the question? I haven't been involved with this article. Pursuit of Nazi collaborators definitely seems an accurate name for the article. IZAK 06:23, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Poll propsal

message: ====Yes====
#Yes, keep. Title together with explanation in article is ok. --Wikimol 17:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Votes

message: #Yes, keep. Title together with explanation in article is ok. --Wikimol 17:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Yes

message: #NO Page is an offensive disgrace to the wikipedia, and the title constitutes hate speech (if one is to accept such a term). Sam [Spade] 19:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: No

message: 9:2 in favour of keeping. --Wikimol 11:06, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I would call that a successful campaign, and an example of wikipedian demographics. I would also call it an abject failure of the wiki process. Sam Spade Arb Com election 16:40, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Conclusion

message: While I don't agree with moving this article, I do agree current structure of Wikipedia contents in this field (Nazi rule on occupied teriotories during the WWII, collaboration of locals, German evacution at the end of war, post-war treatment of Germans and collaborators, populations transfers,...) isn't satisfactory. --Wikimol 11:06, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Whole area

message: From my talk page
:As you have removed all mentions of actual Nazis from the article, the background and means of pursuit sections are now mainly wrong, in that those means were used against Nazis, not collaborators. Also do we have an article on the pursuit of Nazis after the war that that information could go in (or is already in)? Rmhermen 21:47, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
I do not know if there is an article on the pursuit of Nazis. If there is not one then there ought to be one.  But this article is on "pursuit Nazi collaborators" and it ought to be an article on Nazi collaborators not Nazis. 
An area which needs expanding is what happened to those in France in the French Vichy government who were not "assassinated". What did the Americans and the First French Army do with the police force of Vichy France when they landed  in southern France in 1944 for example? What happened to other puppet government collaborators like the Norwigen Quisling. 
Before I changed it, the article mentioned the persecution of inocent Norwegian children who were in no way collaborators (Children of the Nazi era) and still does not mention Quisling,  which was an odd thing to do in an article about the persuit Nazi collaborators.
I've read in the past that a more Dutch died in the SS than at the hands of the SS. If so what happend to those Dutch SS members?
What about the governments of the other Axis powers were they Nazi collaborators or Nazi allies? Philip Baird Shearer 22:51, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Pursuit of Nazi collaborators

message: I had to remove all this (most of the text from the article) to conform to Philip's collaborators
The main motives for the apprehension of suspected collaborators were:
:* Trial and if guilty punishment of traitors, for example members of the Waffen-SS British Free Corps.
::not about collaborators
::: What where the British Free Corps if not collaborators ?
:* Revenge for those killed, especilaly those killed on ethnic grounds in the Holocaust (principally amongst Jews and Russians)
::: Some of the Guards were not German Citizens before 1939
:* A desire after a bitter war, to see those responsible face justice, and be characterised as criminals under a court of law (See Nuremburg Trials).
::not about collaborators
::: Some of the Guards were not German Citizens before 1939
:* To ensure that the acts done were brought to light and placed on formal record, with evidence, so that they could never be denied (some of the acts being so unthinkable that denial was plausible).
::probably not about collaborators
::: Some acts were puputrated by collaborators.
:* A widespread sense that wanton annihilation of whole communities and cultures on such a scale was intolerable and must not be left unpursued even despite the inadequacy of existing laws.
::probably not about collaborators
::: collaborators aided and abetted in this for example some Poles betrayed Jews to the Nazis.
Other motives included:
:* Fear that a "Nazi underground" of some kind existed, such as the ODESSA, which would allow the enemy to somehow regroup for their proclaimed 4th Reich.
::not about collaborators
::: some collaborators aided or were aided by the "Nazi underground" 
:* Political gain, in the turbulent policits of the last 1940's and the commencement of the Cold War.
Millions had died, and neither side was minded to give quarter.  In the minds of many survivors (on both sides) it was "to the death", and sometimes became very harsh.  In some cases this was quite likely misdirected or led to "an eye for an eye", and in many cases there was no formal source of legal authority for actions undertaken by individuals.  In many cases the end result of pursuit was a file being compiled and submitted to a suitable authority for formal action.
::only partly about collaborators
There were two other factors which fuelled the hunt to a wider scale.  First, there was a very large number of people who had been involved in what were defined as war crimes at the post-war Nuremburg Trials.  
::not about collaborators
:::Very much about some of the collaborators eg deportations from France. Philip Baird Shearer 01:00, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Nazi material

message: I have removed Template:TitleNPOV, as far as I can tell this article does not contain the text which gave rise to the POV complaint. If anyone feels strongly enough to restore it please give the specific reasons for doing so. Philip Baird Shearer 15:46, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template:TitleNPOV