Talk:Union for Traditional Judaism

message: The vast majority of UTJ rabbis see themselves as Orthodox, they frequently collaborate with Marc Angel and Drisha, and have Orthodox speakers at their center. They do not see themselves as a denomination.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.215.131 (talk) 09:50, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a denomination 

message: When did the UTJ begin? The introduction lacks any dates. As a Gentile reading this article for the first time, I wasn't even sure what century it began. For the same reason, a date is also needed in Conservative_Judaism#Schisms. I did find two relevant dates in the Halivni article: "Halivni left JTS in 1983." "The Institute of Traditional Judaism was established in 1990."  Mdmcginn (talk) 09:46, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction/Chronology 

message: *The Union for Traditional Judaism supported a Partnership Minyan --  See the September 29, 2004 article "Gay Rabbi in New York Gives Sermon on Rosh Hashanah - Synagogue Loosing Support" and note the passage "The Union for Traditional Judaism is pulling its support from the Montauk Minyan, which featured Orthodox Rabbi Steve Greenberg as one of its speakers during the holiday, the New York Jewish Week reported" Here's the Montauk minyan's announcement of it's Shira Hadasha style services:  --Shirahadasha 05:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The support from the Montauk Minyan was pulled off more than a year before it went the "Partnership"  style from the dates of the same articles you've referenced. Please correct.Romabers 22:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As noted here (Romabers) and elsewhere (below, see Electricity), the basic assumptions here are incorrect.  See Romabers comment.  Also, the Jewish Center of Teaneck is NOT the synagogue of the UTJ's headquarters.  The UTJ synagogue in Teaneck is Netivot Shalom.  The entire basis for this section is not factual.  Please remove references to the Teaneck Jewish Center and all comments about Partnership Minyanim.  They are not relevant to the UTJ. Rachas 12:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree it is possible the Montauk Minyan may have changed its format between the time that the UTJ withdrew its support and the date of the source indicating it was a Partnership Minyan. Withdrew the statement for the time being but am asking neutral administrator to give this a second look. See below re Jewish Center of Teaneck. Best, --Shirahadasha 15:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your corrections. A quote from the article cited above  "Montauk Minyan will be trying a new format for the service" and that's at the end of 2005, while the support was pulled off around High Holidays in 2004.Romabers 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Partnership minyan 

message: The way it was written does not make it any more clear what the UTJ is. What positions exactly were inherited from the Conservative Judaism which were specific to that movement? Any examples? References?Romabers 01:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This  was the source for the claim that the UTJ retained certain leniences. Since we previously agreed it wasn't a sufficiently reliable source in the context of use of electricity on Shabbat, agree it also isn't a reliable source for claim regarding leniencies or inherited positions. Best, --Shirahadasha 04:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inherited positions 

message: I have temporarily protected the page. Please discuss proposed edits on this discussion page. Best, --Shirahadasha 19:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protection 

message: The intro was recently changed to, among other things, add these statements:
:Though officially non-denominational, the UTJ is understood to have many components typically associated with a religious denomination, i.e. a seminary, an association of clergy, and a committee which has authority over religious issues. The UTJ is often viewed as representing a denomination nestled between Conservative Judaism and Orthodox Judaism. 
But we recently agreed that the shamash.org source was not a reliable source to support a claim -- specifically made in that source -- that the UTJ permits microphones on shabbat. A source cannot be selectively reliable, usable when it says things one agrees with but unreliable when it says things one disagrees with it. Under Wikipedia's reliable sources guideline, either the source is reliable and everything in it is fair game (as long as an "according to..." is used for disputed claims) or a source is unreliable and nothing it says can be used. Best, --Shirahadasha 17:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: B"H - Shirahadasha, Hello!  Thank you for your comment about the shamash.org reference in the Intro section.  I agree, it is a little conflicting - the reference was meant to give an example of opinion, not a reference of fact.  I will find another example.  All the best, kt - Rachas 18:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to intro 

message: This may interest editors of this article.  I propose that we need to make a subtle, but important terminology change in this article, and in other articles closely related to this subject.  The Conservative movement is a very widely used term in the Jewish community for a subset of Conservative Judaism. 
The phrase Conservative Judaism refers to a rather broad religious movement within Judaism.  Many statements by Conservative rabbis (especially Ismar Schorsch and Jack Wertheimer), academic Jewish scholars, such as Daniel J. Elazar and Rela M. Geffen, as well as many Orthodox rabbis recognize that Conservative Judaism is more than just groups formally affiliated with the Conservative movement.  Schorsch and Wertheimer have repeatedly noted that most of Conservative Judaism's most recognized success stories involve people who choose not to formally join the Conservative movement.  They include in this category the Union for Traditional Judaism, the Chavurah movement, non-affiliated traditional synagogues, and many synagogues which advertise as being "non-denominational". 
* The Union for Traditional Judaism is especially important to note: At the time that this group came into being, they clearly stated that they were still practicing Conservative Judaism; they simply were disaffiliating from the Conservative movement.  Since that time they have not changed their halakhic practices or their theology.  So how are they not still Conservative Judaism?  In fact, they are still Conservative Judaism - and their synagogues still use Conservative siddurim and machzorim (e.g. the Silverman edition); they still use Conservative Jewish texts from JTS Press and the Rabbinical Assembly, and they still use Isaac Klein's Guide to Jewish Religious Practice.  (This is why no Orthodox Jewish group formally accepts the UTJ as part of Orthodox Judaism.)
*A good example of a non-affiliated chavurah that is recognized as Conservative Judaism is Kehilat Hadar, in Manhattan, NY.  Most of its members even come from Conservative Jewish homes.  A recent article quotes Rabbi Ismar Schorsch.  Most interestingly, it quotes a Rabbi Elie Kaufner, who states that it doesn't advertise as being "Conservative" for membership purposes, not for theological or halakhic reasons!
::"Hadar is interested in welcoming Jews of all backgrounds," says Elie Kaunfer, one of the congregation's founders and a rabbinical student at JTS. "If Hadar were to call itself Conservative, it would be harder for people who identify as Orthodox or Reform or identify as 'not Conservative' to come. The more you label yourself, the harder it is to cast a wide net."
::"The question people are asking today is not, 'How do I become a Conservative Jew?'" Waldoks says. "The question is, 'Why be Jewish?'".  Rabbi Ismar Schorsch, chancellor of JTS, claims that the Conservative movement, which he heads, is the primary source for the religious energy of post-denominationalism. He points to Hadar as an example.  "The Hadar movement could not be mistaken for anything but a Conservative synagogue: It's fully egalitarian and seriously Jewish. The ritual is neither Reform nor Orthodox; it's quintessentially Conservative," Schorsch says.
::"The young people at Hadar are intellectually Conservative and they are ritually Conservative except they are advanced Conservative Jews rather than entry-level Conservative Jews. They wish to distinguish themselves from the materialistic, bourgeois synagogues of suburbia." 
::Jerusalem Post Magazine, Feb 11, 2005
::http://www.kehilathadar.org/Aboutus/jpost02-11-05.html
* Rabbi Elie Kaunfer, executive director of Mechon Hadar, in New York, sees the beliefs and practices of Conservative Judaism thriving even while the brand name of the Conservative movement, specifically its institutions, is in a period of decline:
::Bemoaning the decline of Conservative Judaism misses the point. This decline is a problem for the survival of Conservative institutions that are supported primarily by brand loyalty. But if the true mission of Conservative Judaism is to foster an engaged and empowered Jewish community with a commitment to Torah and mitzvot, declining affiliation may actually be positive. It signals an age in which Jews care enough about their expression of Judaism to resist an ill-defined label.  What is the role for Conservative institutions in this new reality? Three suggestions: Lose the “Label yourself Conservative” mentality. Try instead: We encourage Jews to seek meaningful, empowered engagement with Judaism. Wherever that leads, we trust them, even if it is outside the Conservative menu of options.
: http://www.forward.com/articles/11511/
* Rabbi Jerome Epstein, executive vice president of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, is quoted in an article about the proliferation of supposedly non-denominational, and certainly non-affiliated minyanim and chavurot. What they have in common is that they are usually led by Conservative Jews, and their practices and theology are also Conservative Judaism.  In response to this Rabbi Epstein states:
::Rabbi Jerome Epstein, executive vice president of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, laments the fact that many minyan participants come from Conservative backgrounds but find the movement lacking as they conceive of their adult prayer experiences. “I think people are really looking for an ideology, many of them, a practice that is somewhere in the framework known as Conservative Judaism, but they don’t find it in their Conservative synagogues,” says Rabbi Epstein, who urges the leaders of minyanim to hold their services in and otherwise affiliate with Conservative synagogues, rather than use the churches or community centers many choose. 
::Minyanim Grow Up, Turn Inward New York Jewish Week, 11/25/08
This article should recognize that the term Conservative movement refers to a well-defined subset of organizations and individuals that are within Conservative Judaism, such as the Rabbinical Assembly, the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, and all other organs within the LCCJ.
For a detailed discussion of this issue please see The Conservative Movement in Judaism: Dilemmas and Opportunities, SUNY Press, by Daniel J. Elazar and Rela M. Geffen. RK (talk) 16:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If we want wikipedia to be a source of information and not rumors (i.e. what people unfamiliar with the subject say) we have to define first how we are going to pigeonhole organizations and people into one narrow box or the other. Without such hard, well defined, and agreed upon criteria against which all the movements can be evaluated there is no chance the information will be presented without bias and in an NPOV fashion. But I will be happy to hear the ideas of others.Romabers (talk) 23:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Major terminology change: Conservative Judaism is not the Conservative movement

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*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070811061411/http://www.utj.org:80/faq.html to http://www.utj.org/faq.html#q9
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20060618072858/http://www.utj.org:80/principles.html to http://www.utj.org/principles.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "please see http://www.utj.org. This organisation has never been defunct, and the first paragraph was written/edited with the strong implication that any relevant activity of this organisation was in the past, which is in fact untrue"
The UTJ NO LONGER EXISTS. The anonymous person editing this article is dead wrong. There are ZERO synagogues affiliated with the UTJ anymore, and their seminary closed. Former members have discussions on Facebook, but the UTJ absolutely does not exist anymore. The UTJ appears to no longer exist[edit]
In recent years the organization has ceased to exist.
No synagogues today is an active members of the UTJ
Their seminary no longer exists.
The UTJ filed for bankruptcy in May of 2010 after the economic downturn caused setbacks to several key givers and the organization's income plummeted by over 40%.
They were forced to sell their headquarters.
Their website won't list any affiliated congregations and the email function is broken. No one can contact them.
They had to auction off their headquarters http://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/utjs-teaneck-building-to-go-back-on-auction-block/
http://jstandard.com/index.php/content/item/future_of_union_for_traditional_judaism_sale_uncertain/
friends, this person seems to be lying. The UTJ network of synagogues is dead. They have zero synagogues. And their rabbinical seminary is gone. They have no teachers and no students. Their organizations exists only as a Facebook page and webpage. There is no UTJ movement or synagogue anywhere.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.127.232.57 (talk) 01:35, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help stop "fake news" 

message: This article is being faked. How can I contact a moderator?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.127.232.57 (talk) 01:53, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requesting help: article is being faked