Talk:Friedrich Fröbel

message: The correct and universally acknowledged English spelling is Froebel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.56.150 (talk) 02:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  English spelling 

message: Some edits have involved the creation of other Talk pages for Friedrich Fröbel, and even a duplicate article (now eliminated). The former Talk pages can be reached here:
* Talk:Friedrich_Froebel
* Talk:Friedrich_Wilhelm_August_Froebel
Kelisi (talk) 14:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to former Talk pages 

message: I agree with you that a Google search of Fröbel yields about one point two million pages. Of these about one hundred thousand are written in English. Although I have not checked them all they will include references, blogs and homepages of living people in German with the surname Fröbel. However the question before us is not, how to name an article about a living person named Fröbel, but rather how to present and article about the historical person, who is usuually referred to in English reference works as Friedrich Froebel.
A Google search of either Friedrich Fröbel or Friedrich Froebel yields exactly the same pages written in English - about 33,000. Many of these pages do not include the word Fröbel. Fred20x (talk) 15:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Google search

message: According to Wikipedia the two dots over the "a", "o" or "u" developed from 16th century handwriting and were sporadically introduced into printed works during the 16th century. This would suggest that Martin Luther's Bible did not include these marks. According to Wikipedia in medieval German manuscripts phonological umlaut was denoted by adding an e to the affected vowel, either after the vowel or, in small form, above it. According to Wikpedia a graphical designer was commissioned by the Prussian ministry for culture in 1911 to develop Sütterlin hand written script. I am interested in your opinion that Froebel may have written his name as Fröbel and wonder what evidence you have to support this idea? Fred20x (talk) 07:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There you are, Freddie. That's from 1541. The little e's above some of the letters are a common way of rendering the umlaut in Gothic script, and are still seen in some modern Gothic shop signs and so forth. This I know from time I've spent in Germany. As for the modern mark, I'm sure you must have come across the part about how the Sütterlin "e" evolved into two little strokes. The umlaut was in use by Fröbel's time, either as a little superscript "e", or as two little strokes derived from the Sütterlin "e". An umlaut is an umlaut, whatever style it's written in.Kelisi (talk) 07:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We are in complete agreement that the "e" superscript was typical of German printing. If as you suggest the two dots were derived from the Sütterlin "e", then they are a development that occurred after Froebel's death in 1852 and would explain why his both his students and relatives in England always wrote Froebel in English. Fred20x (talk) 14:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Freddie, that's as ignorant a thing as ever I've read. Those e's ARE umlauts. The two dots are simply how that e is written today, most of the time (not always, as I've indicated).Kelisi (talk) 15:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: When were umlaut marks introduced?

message: There is a fundamental difference between the naming conventions of modern celebrities and historical figures. Quite properly modern celebrites do not as a rule anglicise their names and modern printers often accomodate the range of characters required to represent these names. In contrast, historical figures were often represented by different names in different languages. The Wikipedia policy is flexible adopting the form more commonly recognized by readers. In this case the weight of English language usage for over 150 years is solidly behind Friedrich Froebel. Unlike the other examples you mention, Froebel has generated an extraordinary body of literature in the English language. Fred20x (talk) 02:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Freddie, you've been arguing all along that the "Froebel" spelling ought to stand just because it has been used for so long. Has it occurred to you that this might qualify it as "archaic" or "quaint"? In actual fact, I agree that modern usage should prevail, and modern technology, like computers that can render any letter, even very exotic ones like Ħ, Ŋ, Ɋ, Ϣ or even Ѭ, ought to be used to their full effect. Luckily, we don't have to go quite so far off the deep end. I'm only asking for two little dots. Fröbel spelt his name like that. Can't we be modern and knowledgeable and render Fröbel's name as he wrote it? Redirects can handle any variant spellings, and those, quaint or otherwise, can be noted in the article, leaving nobody confused.Kelisi (talk) 06:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Celebrities and Historical Figures

message: Kelisi, I suggest you take a look at Ludwig_van_Beethoven to get some idea what a neutral point of view article about Friedrich Froebel may look like. Both men were born about the same time and lived through the Napoleonic Wars and the Congress of Vienna. Both men were born into simliar families, educated court officals of Principalities. Both men made major contributions in their fields which have won international recognition. There is no attempt to render place names like Cologne (Köln) or Vienna (Wien) in their German equivalents in the Beethoven article - or even in the place name pages at Wikipedia. I do not think it is too much to ask that Friedrich Froebel be treated with the same respect. Fred20x (talk) 15:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Our current article IS NPOV, Freddie. Furthermore, a city can ask the world to call it by its native name if it so wishes — İstanbul did that on 28 March 1930, objecting to the world calling it Constantinople — but a dead man can't do that. If Vienna would like to be called Wien, no problem, but it seems comfortable with Vienna. Kelisi (talk) 15:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral Point of View

message: I'm sorry, but i think that the stress does not go ->[ˈaʊɡʊst] but [aʊ'ɡʊst].ҢДMM®(Hundry Marquina!) 18:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're certain about it, by all means make the change. The month August is pronounced with stress on the second syllable, but I'm not so sure about the man's name, myself. Kelisi (talk) 14:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just had a look at the German Wiktionary (check it out), and it would seem that the man's name August is indeed pronounced with stress on the first syllable. So, please don't change anything. Kelisi (talk) 14:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but in german we say [aʊ'ɡʊst], with the stress on the second syllable. The word is written the same in both german and english, but the stress goes in different positions. Check it Out!! ҢДMM®(Hundry Marquina!) 04:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but that's for the month, not the man's name. Kelisi (talk) 00:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stress 

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thread_title:  External links modified