Talk:Middle-earth peoples

message: If Tom Bombadill is here then so should Ungoliant be? And if the eagles, then so should the spiders like Shelob. Fig (talk) 23:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added most of the other creatures that possess sentience and/or the ability of speech. Not sure how we're defining "peoples" but if these seem out of place, perhaps the article title could be changed to "Middle-earth races." I feel this information should be kept together somewhere, as it is a good resource. Rajah1 (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand why dragons are here.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:07, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ungoliant 

message: I'm very disappointed that the Shape-shifters were deleted. If Tom Bombadil is allowed there, wich is a humanoid. Then they should be allowed too.
There are some references that he is possibly more a bear than a man. 
Beorn
"What is Beorn? In The Hobbit Bilbo calls him a man, yet he was able to shapeshift into a bear. Something doesn't jive there." (-Thingol) 
Gandalf gives quite a description of Beorn in The Hobbit: 
He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin; sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of. At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own. He lives in an oak-wood and has a great wooden house; and as a man he keeps cattle and horses which are nearly is marvellous as himself. [...] I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears; 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself.
: Sorry but that is nothing but original research. Beorn is described as a man with the ability to shape-shift into a bear. There is no evidence he is a distinct species. There is also no evidence his descendants maintained the ability. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done)  14:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shape-shifters 

message: Deleted the last part that said dragons were mostly died out.
In letter 144, Tolkien wrote this:
Some stray answers. Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage I can think of is Vol.I p. 70: ‘there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough’. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature….--84.197.216.217 (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dragons 

message: There is duplication here with the article list of Middle-earth animals. Creatures such as spiders, wargs, were-wolves and eagles are included in both articles, but they can hardly be described as 'peoples'. The main Middle-earth article distinguishes between 'humanoid' and 'non humanoid' races. i suggest we follow that distinction here, and delete the non humanoid creatures from this article (ensuring of course that they are included in the animals article). UtDicitur (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds reasonable. -- Elphion (talk) 18:08, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Duplication with List of animals

message: I propose to merge Vampire (Middle-earth) into Middle-earth peoples. Tolkien's works include only a few references to vampires.  Goustien (talk) 23:22, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: [Moved from Wizards (Middle-earth)]:I propose that Radagast be merged here. Radagast is a minor character. He is mentioned briefly in The Hobbit. He is mentioned in The Lord of the Rings at the time of the Council of Elrond, and is never mentioned again. He is left out of the films of LOTR, though he has an expanded role in the films of The Hobbit. There is no need for him to have a separate article. The Blue Wizards are even less notable. They don't appear in the major works at all.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:38, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: As "Wizards (Middle-earth)" now redirects to "Middle-earth peoples#Istari (Wizards)", I propose that Radagast be merged to the same place.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I don't understand Andrew's point.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:19, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

text: *That's a good point; I'd agree to that. Matt Deres (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: *That article is just a list, with links to individual articles.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:47, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

text: * that's a good point. At present most of the entries on List of Middle-earth characters are blue-linked. It looks like we've been systematically removing deleted articles and redirect from that list. I'm not sure this is a good precedent though: there are many Lists of characters in a fictional work across Wikipedia, and most of them do include non-notable characters. With the latest wave of AfDs on ME characters, it would be nice to have a good redirect target. BenKuykendall (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: *: this has been discussed before. I'm not keen on merging to an article that doesn't exist yet.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:23, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: * ... fair enough. I've struck my !vote and started a separate discussion here. BenKuykendall (talk) 23:50, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since the outcome is clear I'll do the redirect now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:13, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Merge: but consider that perhaps a better target for this now, considering the February 2020 merge reversal and original target article being itself merged, would be Maia (Middle-earth).  What do you guys think? GenQuest "Talk to Me" 16:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I think that's irrelevant. I proposed that Radagast be merged to this page in November 2019. The fact that I proposed Wizards (Middle-earth) in August is irrelevant. The fact that the merge was reversed in February is irrelevant. In any case, I don't think we need a standalone article on Maia.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:08, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal — Radagast 

message: I propose to merge List of Middle-earth peoples to Middle-earth peoples. Since Middle-earth peoples is already formatted as a list/outline, albeit with more details, I don't see the utility in having a separate list with no details. To complete the merger, some peoples (e.g. Valar and Maiar, varieties of elves, the Uruk-hai) should be expanded into subsections or subsubsections of the article as appropriate. BenKuykendall (talk) 20:12, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal -- [[List of Middle-earth peoples]] 

message: This would make more sense since dragons are included.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:06, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Makes sense. Also trolls etc. Or maybe Sentient entities of Middle-earth, to avoid adding entries of non-sentient creatures here? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: So, in other words, "peoples" includes any creature that can speak?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tolkien thought so. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename to Peoples and Creatures? 

message: The first line on the article is "First came the four, the free peoples", but on the book it appears as "First name the four, the free peoples". Is "name" a confirmed error? Manudosde (talk) 15:36, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's just a typo in the article (or an instance of over-zealous over-correction, whatever). Fixed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treebeard traditional lay quote 

message: If dragons are here, so based on their intelligence rather than humanoid form, then why not the eagles and (more briefly mentioned) vampires and werewolves? And, as another has suggested, Ungoliant and her race of spiders. 2603:7000:2BF0:4970:F98C:6ADF:89D2:B911 (talk) 07:29, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good idea. Not sure about the vampires and werewolves, they are probably just plot devices really, but the Great Eagles are certainly a people, and the Great Spiders are probably one also, if a suitable source can be found that says so. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eagles, vampires and werewolves