Talk:The Wrecking Crew (music)

message: Question: was Howard Roberts not considered part of this clique? Fawcett5 20:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have often seen Roberts associated with this group in music publicationsPaulmeisel 12:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Misc

message: "The Wrecking Crew" is a great name for a group!  
But how did this unusual name come about?  Anybody know?  Captain Quirk (talk) 03:41, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See Hal Blaine and the Wrecking Crew (which should really be merged with this article).  According to that article, "The name The Wrecking Crew was derived from the impression that Blaine and the younger studio musicians made on the businesses’ older generation who felt that they were going to wreck the music industry. "  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:09, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! :-)   Captain Quirk (talk) 17:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  How did the crew get its name? 

message: I propose that Hal Blaine and the Wrecking Crew be merged into this article. The article about the book is short and of minor importance in itself, and has been tagged for improvement, because of multiple issues, since 2008.  It should be covered in this article.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:14, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrecking_Crew_(music)#Members
Does such a person exist? I realize that the (007) part is bogus but I don't want to remove his name entirely from the article. Can anyone confirm? 
146.201.162.145 (talk) 18:35, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: it appears that he's a real guy! I reverted my edit 146.201.162.145 (talk) 18:37, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jimmy Bond (007)?! 

message: that Strangers in the Night should be included in their discography (or whatever) here.  Although several Crew members did play on the session there really was much more to it than just them.  I say Remove it, how about you?  Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 19:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  I don't feel 

message: There need to be some criteria adopted as to which recordings are listed in the table.  I'm not sure what the original criteria were - I assume that the list comes from Hartman's book, but I am not sure what his criteria are.  Does he state them?  If so, the simplest solution would be just to state his criteria for inclusion in the text, and then require very exceptional circumstances for any additions to be made to the list.  If he based his criteria on chart success, then I think it would be worthwhile including chart placings - but, without knowing his criteria, we do not know whether those listed were the highest-charting singles that they played on, or simply some sort of selection.  Without knowing, it seems redundant and potentially misleading to include the chart placings - we are not necessarily saying they are the biggest hits that the musicians played on.  There are already anomalies - "River Deep Mountain High" was a very minor hit in the US but a huge one in the UK, for instance, and I'm sure there were many other recordings that charted higher in the US that are not listed.  So, we essentially need some referenced text to justify the list in the table, in my view.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:49, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, we need to think about this a bit, these guys played on thousands of recordings and I am not in favor of listing them all.  However part of the wonder that these musicians create, at least in me, is the sheer volume of exceptional recordings they did do and just listing the artists they played with is very unsatisfactory because a reader would not know what Byrds song they played on and then you multiply that times how many artists there are. I just added the US chartings because it was more information about particular songs and I believe this helps put their accomplishment in context.  Or something.  For the record, I consider myself to be an inclusionist.  Carptrash (talk) 07:14, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps in addition to Hartman, we could put a layer of ref's from Billboard to verify the chart positions.  Perhaps we could also indicate that the ones shown are US chart positions--or perhaps find a way to show some British chart positions and indicate which country. Garagepunk66 (talk) 07:48, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S.: We could perhaps establish top ten as a criteria, unless a hit was top ten in another country like "River Deep", and for those exceptions include the British chart position also.Garagepunk66 (talk) 07:57, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have no problem in listing, say, US and UK top ten singles - I have the sources for both - but the problem is that we would not know if it is comprehensive.  It was rare for backing musicians to be credited on singles.  That is why it would be good to know what Hartman's criteria for his list were.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:31, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The list is certainly not comprehensive.  Plenty of songs were mentioned throughout the book, but not included in the list (which is called "the Timeline").  Non-included songs, of course, appear in the index.  The list is on pages 261-266, and serves as part of a addendum or de facto appendix.   It gives name of songs, featured acts, and years, but provides no chart positions, though they are mentioned from time-to-time in the text.  Under the title it reads: "A Small Sample from the Wrecking Crew's Hundreds of Hit Recordings".  He does not seem to have a set criteria.  Some of the songs on our list do not appear on his, but I have referenced both pages of text and the list, so all except for two or three get covered--those songs get separate citations that are indicated next to the song.  Garagepunk66 (talk) 10:00, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I had removed Simon & Garfunkel's "I am a Rock" from the list yesterday, because I was highly doubtful that they recorded it in L.A. with the Wrecking Crew.  Although Hartman mentions the song in the list in the back of his book (not in the text), I think he is mistaken.  I remember reading that S&G had recorded the album in New York with Dylan's sidemen from Highway 61. I just checked Song Facts, and they say, as I suspected, that "I Am a Rock" was recorded in NY with producer Bob Johnson featuring Ralph Castle on the island-style guitar part, as well as Al Kooper and Bobby Gregg, who had played on Highway  61.  So, "I am a Rock" cannot include the Wrecking Crew. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:27, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your kind words.  I'm glad that there are other editors like you (and I'd count GHmyrtle as well) who understand that reliable sources are reliable, not necessarily infallible and that the only thing more important than reliable sources are a consensus of reliable editors making good judgments about what we glean from the variety of references we use.  The sources are our tools--our roadmaps and compasses (...and mile-markers), but not necessarily our destination.  It is wonderful having good editors along on the journey! Garagepunk66 (talk) 22:50, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's one thing we could check into... I think that the Johnny Rivers' song, "Mountain of Love" might have been recorded with members his own backing band, rather than the Wrecking Crew.  I'm not sure.  I know that his drummer, Mickey Jones, accompanied Bob Dylan on the later parts of the 1966 tour (taking the place place of Levon Helm, who hated those booing "we want acoustic Dylan" fans, and supposedly quit the tour after angry catcallers threw tomatoes at his drum set).  Certain pre-1966 Johnny Rivers songs, such as "Secret Agent Man", clearly have the sound of Mickey Jones baking him up.  "Mountain of Love Sounds" like one of the songs backed by Jones at those sessions.  Whereas later songs such as "Poor Side of Town" clearly have the sound of the Wrecking Crew, with Hal Blaine on drums.  You can tell--for smoother arrangements, like on Sinatra's "Strangers in the Night", Blaine would use calfskin drum heads--you hear that same sound in "Poor Side of Town".  I know that the Mickey Jones article says that Jones played on "Mountain of Love".  Though the statement is unsourced, I definitely think that Jones played on that cut (listen to Dylan live in '66--you hear that same Mickey Jones sound).  The only remaining question is, were other members of the Wrecking Crew on it or was it all Rivers' own band members?  The list in the back of Hartman's book (pg. 262) says the Wrecking Crew played on "Mountain of Love".  That may be another instance of a mistake.  I have the highest regards for Hartman and would say that everything in his text sections are 100% true.  I have a feeling that he may not have been as involved with the list in the back of the book--that may have been tacked on by the editors.  I'd say that the list on pg. 262 is mostly quite accurate, but it may have a couple of mistakes.  "Poor Side of Town" is definitely the Wrecking Crew.  But, maybe we could do some checking into "Mountain of Love" to see if any members of the Wrecking Crew were on it.  Garagepunk66 (talk) 04:43, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: According the Hal Blaine in his book he played on "Mountain of Love" as well as "Son of a Seventh Son" (Seventh Son?), Poor Side of Town, "Baby I Need Your Lovin'" and "Tracks of My Tears."  More food for thought. Carptrash (talk) 05:21, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You make a great point.  You have provided the perfect reason keep the song on the list. Garagepunk66 (talk) 06:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Selected recordings and chart placings 

message: The member list should be in this format:
* Hal Blaine — drums, percussion
* Carol Kaye — electric bass, electric guitar
etc...--Ilovetopaint (talk) 07:38, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that you are saying the list should mention the names first and then the instruments afterward.  We could do that, but it may ramble-on too long (and get confusing).  Doing this would involve a lot of alphabetizing.  We could try it, but would you be willing to help out?  It has been this way for a long time, and it may be in its current format due to carefully-considered judgments of prior contributors. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:11, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S.: I have re-named the members' list "List of members according to instruments played".  I hope that will solve the problem without having to re-format the whole thing.  Would that be a workable solution? Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

text: It's tedious and that's why I haven't done it myself. The formatting is awkward, and duplicated entries are abound since the members often played more than one type of instrument.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 05:23, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of members 

message: "Mother and Child Reunion" by  Paul Simon is a bit of a stretch.  Did you read the article?  Carptrash (talk) 02:20, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  I think that including 

message: I am inclined to go through the "Musicians" section and remove songs that are mentioned that can in no way be considered to be WC ventures.  That Hal Blaine played on I Can't Help Falling In Love With You is irrelevant to the WC.  There should be good examples of stuff that they played on that can be considered WC material, even though there is not a straight, even line between what is WC and what is not. Carptrash (talk) 18:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: So I am going to start removing songs and info from this section if it does not hit on the WC as a group. Carptrash (talk) 04:19, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The musicians 

message: |"The Way We Were"
|Barbra Streisand
| 1
| 31
|-
it probably had Blaine & maybe Tadesco at the session but it was not a Wrecking Crew session.  Those guys played all sorts of other dates too. Carptrash (talk) 00:15, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  I cut this out 

message: I am not sure why this section is named like this.  It makes it sound as if the Wrecking Crew was choosing producers instead of the producers choosing them.  I think just  Producers would be a better name. Carptrash (talk) 23:22, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Choice of producers 

message: It says that the musicians were not publicly recognized in their own time, but that is not entirely true, because if you look at Discogs, you'll see that individual members, including Hal Blaine, got credited for their work on album sleeves as early as 1963 and Joe Osborn even got credited on Ricky Nelson's album sleeves before he was a part of The Wrecking Crew.
For purposes of clarification, I'm talking about album credits in general and again, I'm not saying that The Wrecking Crew were collectively credited as such in album sleeves, but rather, I mean musicians getting individual credits.
115.64.244.198 (talk) 23:57, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Credits

message: I am looking at Leonard Cohen's Death of a Ladies' Man, produced by Phil Spector, drums by Hal Blaine and Jim Keltner, bass Ray Pohlman, guitar Ray Pohlman, keyboards, Don Randi, Steve Douglas, sax & flute, and Nino Tempo is all over it, even Larry Levine in the engineer.  So can this be added to the discography or do I need to find a source saying that this is the WC? Carptrash (talk) 19:34, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's already mentioned.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 08:59, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is a Wrecking Crew session? 

message: *"(occasionally credited as the Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra)"
The PSWoSO is not the same as the Wrecking Crew.  It is just another configuration that some of the members played in, like all the other band's albums and singles that they played on. It is like saying (writing) the WC was occasionally credited as The Byrds, or The Grass Roots, or The Carpenters, etc. This might belong in the article somewhere but not in the lede as an alternate name. Carptrash (talk) 18:54, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the article carefully. The only reason "the Wrecking Crew" got established was because they were the musicians Phil Spector used. "The Wrecking Crew" and "Phil Spector's band" are one and the same. And they were never credited as "the Byrds" or "the Grass Roots". They weren't credited at all except on rare occasions. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 15:13, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I'll bite.  So where is the Wrecking Crew "credited as the PSWoSO?" And you are going to say "On such and such a record" and I am going to say, "They are credited as "the Wrecking Crew?" and you'll say, "no as the PSWoSO" and I'll say, "That's just another band these guys played for."   So . . ...where is the credit for the WC? Carptrash (talk) 17:40, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:    I’d sort of like to have you involved in this discussion.  That is, should the “Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra” be mentioned as an alternate name for the Wrecking Crew in the lede?  Or anywhere? Carptrash (talk) 19:16, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly, yes. Christian Matijas-Mecca mentions two alternate names for the Wrecking Crew in the footnotes of the book The Words and Music of Brian Wilson: "The First Call Gang and The Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra were also used to describe this collection of musicians." Binksternet (talk) 06:30, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no doubt that we should mention "PSWoSO" somewhere in the lead section.  The question is where (?).  My only slight reservation about saying it in the very first sentence might be the name's lack of regularity of use.  It is not a commonly held moniker (and was only used for Phil Spector's records), so it may apply more in a subcondition (i.e. to be explained a few sentences later).  For instance, should we say "...sometimes credited as Luke the Drifter..." in the first sentence of the Hank Williams article just because he cut certain records under that name (?)—we could definitely add mention of his pseudonym to the lead section, but would the saying it in first sentence be going too far there too? That's just a thought.  I don't have the answers, so I could be wrong.  I guess we'll figure it out.  Garagepunk66 (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  "The Wrecking Crew" and "Phil Spector's band" are one and the same."  Sop we could say that the Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra plays on Mr Tambourine Man and Mrs Robinson and all those other songs because that's what "one and the same" says to me. And I don't agree. Carptrash (talk) 00:58, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: , , , you all make valid points, so I was wondering if there is an alternative we could find that would be acceptable to everyone.  Maybe we could keep mention of PSWoSO in bold letters somewhere in the lead section, but put it slightly later, rather than in the first sentence.  Would that work?  That's just a thought.  Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:16, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

text:  I don't see the issue. It's interesting that you use "Mrs. Robinson" as an example when it's barely a Wrecking Crew record - only Hal Blaine and Larry Knechtel are on it. You don't appear to understand that "the Wrecking Crew" is not a band, it's a pool of musicians who got famous specifically for their work with Phil Spector. It wasn't like a random group of jazz musicians who accidentally became the backing band for every pop singer in LA in the '60s.  --Ilovetopaint (talk) 03:54, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh what, we have to do credentials now?  I started editing the Hal Blaine article in 2004, Earl Palmer the same year.  Jim Gordon (musician) a few years later. Joe Osborn in 2006.  I started the Ray Pohlman article.  I bought Hal Blaine’s autobiography, which I dated on the inside cover “June 25, 1995.”  I have Earl’s autobiography, I have Max Weinman’s, “The Big Beat.”  I have Tommy Tedesco’s autobiography. I have the Hartman book.  I emailed back and forth with Carol Kaye in around 2000.  She told me Hal’s joke about the Golden Bar.  I have 2 Hal Blaine CDs.  So please do not pull the condescending crap on me. I also emailed Christian Matijas-Mecca, but enough of this. You’ve got your Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra in the lede where I do not believe that it belongs.   Carptrash (talk) 05:20, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: ...And? Those are authoritative sources, but not necessarily reliable. Not even they can agree on what their supposed "band" nickname was. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 14:53, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

text: Yeah it's right here: The Wrecking Crew (music)#List of members --Ilovetopaint (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

text: No, that's a list of Wrecking Crew members.  I'd like to see a referenced list of the members of "the Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra". Carptrash (talk) 20:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: They're one and the same --Ilovetopaint (talk) 20:55, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That is what you keep saying but I don't see the reference that says so. Do you feel that the name can be applied to them when they are not playing for Phil? Because the other names, "the clique" and "first call guys" (or whatever) CAN be used interchangeably with "Wrecking Crew." Can it be said that the Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra plays on The Beat Goes On (Sonny & Cher song) or You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' ?  Carptrash (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:DEADHORSE, take another look at the above discussion please. And to answer your question, yes. I've never read a biography or article about the Wrecking Crew that failed to acknowledge them as "Phil Spector's backing musicians" or something to that effect.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 04:15, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not claiming that the WC did not play on records labeled "the Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra".  But in saying that SPWoSO is another name for the WC, it means that you could say that the PSWoSO backed up the Mamas and Papas, and the Partridge Family and The 5th Dimension and you can't say that.  The SPWoSO was a name that appeared on a record label, like the Mamas and Papas, and the Partridge Family and The 5th Dimension.  The WC played on all that stuff but you can't just interchange the names. The other names given, "The Clique" and "the First Call Bunch" (or whatever) can be used interchangeably with "WC." You can say "The Clique" and "the First Call Bunch" played on the Mamas and Papas, and the Partridge Family and The 5th Dimension and even the PSWoSO, but all you should say that the PSWoSO played one are records that are labeled with that name. If you continue to think like a dead horse I will continue to think, "No, there must be a thinking something in there. But since everyone else (and I know lots of folks watch this article) is strangely silent on this subject I am not going to revert you. Carptrash (talk) 05:24, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  I just cut this out from the lede 

message: I think there is too much ink devoted to the non-Wrecking Crew work of the musicians.  So I would like to removes things such as "Years later, in 1978, Douglas played on Bob Dylan's 1978 "Street-Legal" album and accompanied Dylan on tour that year as part of his eight piece backing band. " from the text.  And a lot more.  Steve Douglas is not any more impressive (opinion) because 15 years after playing in the WC he played with Dylan.  Pretty much all of these musicians have their own articles if folks want more of them. What's your take on this? Carptrash (talk) 01:11, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and tried to trim a lot of this stuff in the past, but most of it was reverted. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:27, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much "non-Wrecking Crew stuff? 

message: and moved it here to be discussed.
:"They were also occasionally credited as the "Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra" for a few of his later records."
I am not sure if the reference will show up here but I went to it and there is no mention of the "Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra" anywhere in the piece. I will beat this dead horse a bit more and say that the "Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra" was NOT an AKA for the Crew, as the "Clique" and the "First Call Gang" (Bunch?) was.  Those are generic names and can be applied to anything that these folks played on.  The "Phil Spector Wall of Sound Orchestra" can only be used on tracks that use those words on the label. Carptrash (talk) 16:16, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The logic you're pushing forth here makes no sense. They're all generic names. It doesn't actually mean anything whether you call them the Wall of Sound or the Clique. The only thing that binds these people together is that they were a group of musicians who became famous through their association with Phil Spector. Names like "Phil Spector's Wall of Sound" or "Wall of Sound Orchestra" are the only monikers that we know for sure existed among these musicians in the '60s or '70s. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:23, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  I just cut this out 

message: The photo caption lists Carol Kaye as bassist and, though she was indeed a bassist for the Wrencking Crew and perhaps the most badass bass player in the biz, inspection of that particular photo reveals the person holding a bass guitar (image right) is a brunette male not a blond female (which Kaye is). Also, the face shape is wrong for Kaye. I don't know what Wiki people do when they find such errors but I thought I'd point it out and hope someone who can either replace the image or fix the caption (hopefully without delisting Kaye entirely). CoveArts (talk) 04:24, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Kaye was also a very talentel guitar player and in this picture (which does not label her as a bassist) she is right behind the second keyboard player, blond as you said, playing some kind of a Fender 6 string.  You can find larger versions of this picture and it is pretty clear. Carptrash (talk) 04:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in photo caption for article "Wrecking Crew" 

message: These bands aren't notable for being backing bands in the same sense as the rest of the bands listed in the "see also" section. That said, I'm gonna replace them with the Nashville A-Team and the Salsoul Orchestra.2601:153:881:3D60:20CF:5F56:F5FB:33BD (talk) 12:42, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The Assembled Multitude]] and [[the Meters]] 

message: Couldn't the article (being so short) of the recently deceased Cipriano be merged with this article? Editrite! (talk) 09:45, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There seem to be sufficient sources, and he seems to be of sufficient notability, for his article to be expanded.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gene Cipriano merger? 

message: Hello. I started a page for Gary L. Coleman the wrecking crew’s percussionist. It has been nominated for deletion for lacking notable citations. Anyone out there who can help edit or discuss why he shouldnt be deleted? Renatak (talk) 04:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable citations request