Talk:List of foreign Premier League players

message: I added him today. He was a Dutch striker who made a single substitute appearance for Oldham Athletic in the closing months of the 1992-93 season. ChrisG76 (talk) 09:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch! --necronudist (talk) 10:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orpheo Keizerweerd 

message: I'm undecided as to whether he should be put in. He was called up by Nigeria in 1999, but never actually played for the Super Eagles. What do we reckon? ChrisG76 (talk) 09:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: For me, he's 100% English. --necronudist (talk) 10:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: He has never played a game with Nigeria, injured or not, and he was born in England. So he's English. We need to apply criteria based on facts, not guesses. --necronudist (talk) 18:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm not trying to make a wild swing in the dark with a guess - just putting the idea out there. The point in case is he got the call up, he accepted it, and if selected in the starting line-up, would presumably have played fro Nigeria. As I stated with the Kanoute example - a French player, who had represented them at U21 level. If he had been selected by Mali, and pulled out of the squad, he'd still be French. We have numerous players that are sensibly listed on this list who were born in other countries, yet have not represented the nation they are listed under. That's why I hung the asterisk / footnote suggestion out there. ChrisG76 (talk) 16:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't particularly like asterisks or footnotes. It's trouble enough to decide on one set of criteria. Now we have to decide on two sets of criteria: who is a "true" foreign player, and who is a "marginal" foreign player. Chanheigeorge (talk) 22:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  George Ndah 

message: I'm thinking whether we should put Jordao, the West Brom player, as Angolan or Portuguese. Here's some information I gather:
*He's born in Angola in 1971, when Angola was still part of the Portuguese empire (they achieved independence in 1975).
*He spent almost all of his career playing in Portugal. Does not appear to have played for any Angolan clubs. 
*Does not appear to have represented either Angola or Portugal on any levels.
*Stated much more commonly as Portuguese in the media (for example, ). Also stated as Portuguese in this old Wikipedia page (). But did get stated as Angolan in a few reports (for example, ).
He appears a similar case to many Dutch footballers born in Suriname, such as Fabian de Freitas, Ken Monkou, Clyde Wijnhard and Fabian Wilnis, who are commonly regarded as Dutch. Any thoughts? Chanheigeorge (talk) 23:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Just another of numerous instances designed to give you a headache! I'll say one thing about Soccerbase, though - they've got the listed nationalities for numerous players incorrect. It seems not to take 100% accuracy all that important - something this page has the chance to do by covering all the bases. That's why this sort of debate is so important IMHO ChrisG76 (talk) 17:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I tell you all again: it's impossible to cover every particular case. We need two or three criteria (not a hundred thousand) that will make the list not perfect but complete. I created (and I'm mantaining) La Liga and Serie A lists and there's no problem. Criteria make some controversies (e.g. Margiotta played 8 matches with Italy at youth level and played for Venezuela at A level, but he's not in the list) but draw a deep line between what's admitted and what is not. If you're going to cover every case...good luck. --necronudist (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's quite difficult to assign just ONE nationality to a player in many cases. For him, and Sean Dundee, I think I'll put them as Portuguese and German respectively, mainly because without the "new" citizenship, they have zero chance of playing in the EPL given the work permit requirements. Compared him to Manucho, who is truly Angolan, and needs a work permit in order to sign for Man Utd. Chanheigeorge (talk) 19:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jordao 

message: In light of the recent discussions, I will use the following clear-cut criteria for whether a player is considered foreign or not:
:A player is considered foreign if he is not eligible to play for the national teams of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland.
This is actually a good summary of the current criteria, with the following implications:
*If a player is capped by a foreign national team, he is considered foreign since he's no longer eligible (unless FIFA grants him a change of nationality later). However, if a player is merely called up, this has no effect as eligibility is not changed.
*If a player has British/Irish parents, or move to UK/Ireland at a young age and obtain citizenship, he is considered domestic due to the eligibility.
*If a player obtains British/Irish citizenship for the purpose of playing for the national teams of England etc. (say Manuel Almunia in the future), he is considered domestic as soon as he obtains the citizenship, regardless of whether he is eventually capped or not. This also applies if FIFA grants him a change of nationality.
Of course, the above criteria will be applied within reasonable context. For example, if a foreign player decides to stay at UK after retirement and obtain British citizenship, we're not going to consider him a domestic player. Chanheigeorge (talk) 23:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also removed Kazenga LuaLua and Kelvin Etuhu, since they both grew up in England. Chanheigeorge (talk) 01:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Two more: Matty Pattison and Jemal Johnson. Chanheigeorge (talk) 02:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Looking pretty robust to me. Good stuff. ChrisG76 (talk) 21:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Foreign criteria 

message: Has played full international football for Guadeloupe. There are a considerable number of International match reports around the net to support this.  ChrisG76 (talk) 17:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I know, and if I remember well I originally put him under Guadeloupe. --necronudist (talk) 18:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Cool down. I don't know what arguments you've gotten into at other pages, but be more civil. Anyway, I was the one who moved him back to France, because my opinion is that Guadeloupe isn't really a country, and their national team is not a FIFA-member. For example, Jocelyn Angloma has played for both France and Guadeloupe without the need of FIFA approval. Chanheigeorge (talk) 19:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I think it was a good move Chanheigeorge. It was my fault, indeed. Guadeloupe isn't a country and its national team isn't a FIFA-member (althought it's a CONCACAF one). --necronudist (talk) 19:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Sommeil 

message: Played Premiership football for Ipswich Town in 94/95, however every time this is added to the list, it is always deleted. Answers on a postcard! --Footballgy (talk) 23:24, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the criteria before editing... --necronudist (talk) 09:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mauricio Taricco 

message: * alphabetical
* listed by continent
I recently rearranged this list from being alphabetical by country to listed by continent and then country. The page creator rejected this change immediately, with the edit summary "what a mess". Aside from the fact that this is quite insulting, I actually don't think it is much of a mess at all, and offers distinct advantages to being purely alphabetical. Opinions? MickMacNee (talk) 20:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I'm not English mothertongue... for me "a mess" is something difficult to understand...all screwed up. I didn't know it was insulting. However, I think an alphabetical order would be better, 'cause I don't have to think if Georgia or Turkey is an Asian or an European country. My experience says that I was forced to re-sort by continent the Italian version of Serie A foreign players' list and many people complained. --necronudist (talk) 21:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't have that many places to look for Georgia in the TOC, which is still alphabetical under continent (or you can directly search the article). However, compare that inconvenicence to a user trying to determine how many players from South America were in the PL, and they also have the same difficulty you describe in remembering where different countries are. It would be impossible for them to find out from an alphabetical list. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages in this respect. MickMacNee (talk) 21:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if I can search the article, then is useless to sort players in any way. However, it's a matter of priorities... a good compromise between our different views would be to add between brackets the number of players, next to every nation name (e.g.: Algeria  (6) or something like that), and at the bottom of the page a table with the number of players by continent. --necronudist (talk) 10:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alphabetical versus by Continent 

message: Hey everyone -- this is super minor but the size of the dashes seem to be inconsistent in places, particularly between the clubs played for and years played listings for the most recent players (e.g. Andre Bikey, Hassan Yebda, Stefan Maierhofer). anyone know how to/care to fix this? 76.126.182.121 (talk) 20:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punctuation consistency 

message: Just added him in. Netherlands Antilles international, played a few games in the second half of the 2008–09 season for West Brom. Hope you like that catch, Ը२ձւե๓ձռ17 20:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shelton Martis 

message: To refuse to acknowledge Ireland (somnetimes described as the Republic of Ireland) as a country foreign to the United Kingdom is to apply an extra-ordinary POV or piece of OR to this article.  If a list of foreign players is desired, one cannot redefine Foreign simply because one nationality will be large.  If you have any confidence at all in the definition of the terms, they can be applied just as accurately to a country "donating" many players to the Premier League as those who provide fewer. Kevin McE (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irishmen 

message: Hi everyone, I created a map that locates players on this list. I used the information of 10th november of 2014. The quality isn't perfect but maybe it could be useful. Feel free to add the maps if you want. Here is the link: http://imgur.com/a/AB2a2  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whysocomplacent (talk • contribs) 18:17, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map to locate players. 

message: Previoulsy there was a debate about Guadeloupe players, but Gibraltar is not a country, not a FIFA member but is listed as well. It would be nice to have a standard of only FIFA members or confederation ones. I don't see why to have Gibraltar but not having Guadeloupe or French Guyana  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:12F0:614:300:569:F9C3:402C:B364 (talk) 12:56, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gibraltar 

message: I've added 2 players, who were missing.
* Nico Claesen: Tottenham Hotspur 1986-1988
* Roger Van Gool: Coventry City 1979-1981  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koenarnold (talk • contribs) 12:02, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belgian Players in the Premier League 

message: ...please explain the inclusion criteria to a poor confused soul who can't understand why a list of "foreign PL players" doesn't mean list of "people who were foreign when they played in the PL".
An example: Neil Danns, who was born a British citizen in England, played in the PL as an Englishman relatively early in his career, and seven years later, long after his PL career finished, played internationally for another country for which he qualified by descent so promptly becomes a foreigner for the purposes of this list. When he played in the PL, he was English, not foreign.
I don't get it, I'm afraid. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the criteria used by the Premier League itself. Carl Cort fits exactly in the same example you gave, with a higher reputation. He played from 1996 to 2004 as an Englishman in the PL and played for Guyana in 2011, but even in the Premier League official website he is considered a Guyanese player (and also the nation's top goalscorer in the league) - https://www.premierleague.com/players/1284/Carl-Cort/overview 2001:12F0:614:300:B49D:BFEF:A199:AB7F (talk) 11:37, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could someone who understands the basics of this list 

message: Following the fixture between Liverpool and Norwich City, in which Onel Hernández played, he was subsequently added under the list for German players. Whilst Hernández has represented Germany at Under-20 level, he has made his intentions clear that he wishes to play for the Cuban national team, which he cannot as it only allows for Cuban based players to play, despite accepting a call up to play for Cuba.
Whilst I appreciate that under the technical rules for this page, he would only be listed under the German heading, Hernandez considers himself Cuban, is listed by the Premier League as a Cuban player and has been widely cited as being the first Cuban player in the Premier League.
As noted in previous responses on this talk page, this list is supposed to be a reflection on the Premier League's nationality, with the rules listed at the header of the list clarifying for the casual reader, not as a set list of rules for determining nationality. In football, that is done through national team representation, and here we have a situation in which a player, who is from Cuba, has been called up for Cuba, has repeatedly expressed a desire to play for Cuba and is viewed by his club, the league and the media as being Cuban, is arbitrarily being included on this list as a German due to the fact he played an under-20 match for Germany nine years ago entirely due to stringent rule following to rules that are set out to be an explainer for the casual reader, not to be used as law in judgement of player's nationality. That resides with the footballing authorities, who clearly view Hernandez as being Cuban.
This is a rare case, and do not think that listing Hernandez as Cuban would threaten the rules of the article. (Apologies for putting references in the talk space, but I did wish to provide evidence for my claims and I'm not super familiar with the talk page protocol) BarnabyJoe (talk) 11:13, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationality of Onel Hernández