Talk:Pu'er tea

message: Based on the "To Do" list below, I've revamped the article, incorporating previous information and including much, much more information about the tea and reorganizing the topics more comprehensively. I've added regions, factories, a dissection of a cake, and lots of characters and pinyin. My pinyin may not be 100% correctly formulated (I don't know Chinese tone-shifting rules), and I welcome any changes by those with this knowledge. --Bearsbearsbears 08:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Revamp

message: 1. Can we create a disambiguation page that would redirect "Pu'er" to "Pu-erh"? Or, better yet, considering that "pu'er" is the pinyin form, and this tea is from the mainland, rename this post entirely to "Pu'er Tea"? I don't mean to approach political issues regarding Wades-Giles and Pinyin, only to reflect the heritage of the tea.
2. It would be helpful to include Chinese characters wherever possible for names of places and concepts in pu'er, most helpful to include both simplified & traditional.
3. There are a lot of issues to cover about this tea that need flushing out, as this is a complex tea:
a) Pedigree by factory, tea mountain/region, year, and season: any understanding or even introduction to pu'er has to approach the idea of the factory (wine analogy: bottling company), tea mountain/region (vineyard/grape region), year (vintage), and season (spring pu'er, autumn pu'er, summer pu'er, are usually valued in that order, with an occasional strange winter production)
b) Tea Mountains and Regions: what are some of the major regions (Bulang, Bangwei, Nannuo, Banzhang, Lincang, Simao, Snow Mountain, Menghai, Mengsa, Yiwu, etc.), and hopefully some information about them.
c) Pu'er shapes: What are they, their history, their benefits for aging.
d) The Marketplace/Trends: Taiwanese businessmen who are pu'er fans forming small-batch operations; lots of fakes of new and old teas in the marketplace, particularly for aged tea, and particularly online; pu'er in the news, maybe?
e) Pictures! I have quite a few, but could use some help posting them.
f) Anatomy of a cake: neifei, neipiao, etc. (something akin to what's available on Hou De Asian Art but with more information)
g) Aging: what are ideal conditions for aging, what changes does aging bring about, etc. There is very little information about this process in English, so I suspect that no more than a cursory review of this information could be constructed.
h) Recipes - deciphering a recipe code.
Bearsbearsbears 22:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Necessary Sections / To Do List

message: Is the process that changes Green Tea to Pu-Erh best described as fermentation? My understanding of the process is that the tea is cultured -- more like milk into yogurt, than grapes into wine. Isn't "fermentation" the conversion of sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide? Perhaps it is the established term and has a wider meaning than this and I am mistaken, but I imagine most people would have this idea of fermentation as well. Perhaps a line clarifying the difference in meaning would be helpful.4.158.141.210 23:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is tricky, the dictionary using Dictionary program on GNOME gives that fermentation is simply in the wider sense organic transformation of things to new things. I think in terms of Pu-erh fermentation is correct and it is often used, also some people say oxidation as the processes apparently occur only when Pu-erh is exposed to air. Why I think using fermentation is better; because oxidation can be used in terms of Oolong and Black/Red tea and its a somewhat different process. --Iateasquirrel 02:26, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

text: IMHO, the word "tea fermentation" is direct translate from the Chinese language. The word is used in the Chinese tea processing for thousand of year because the people have no idea about enzyme break down due to oxidization process, thus view the process similar to fermentation. While the word "oxidization" appear to be modern scientific discovery. Books produce by expert in China has pointed it out as oxidization process.--Sltan 14:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fermented vs. cultured.

message: Great article. Two suggestions: 1) discuss the Cantonese style tea that is half pu'erh and half chrysanthemum flowers (called "leihua"?); and 2) make a page for the Pu'erh County that the tea is from. Badagnani 08:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The combination of puerh and chrysanthemum is actually called "Jupu" 菊普(chrysanthemum-puerh), or "Gok-po" in Cantonese (same words). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarshalN (talk • contribs) 16:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Two suggestions...Three Suggestions Now

message: I've seen a couple of different versions of mountains listed as being the "six mountains". Which are you ones that we should note down? There is some interesting information about it here, but is there a more primary source for the information? Sjschen 19:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Six famous tea mountains

message: Article is comprehensive, well referenced, and well organized. All images are relevant and well licensed. Good job! --Jayron 32 05:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: On passing GA

message: I do not have a copy of Mr. Chan's new book, so I don't know what he says.  However, it is my understanding that withering the freshly plucked leaves before the "kill-green" in the wok is NOT proper puerh processing and is NOT how they used to make things.  It is one of the newer styles of making puerh that is quite controversial.  Can someone tell me what exactly he said (as I don't have access to this very new book) and whether or not he says this SHOULD be how puerh is done? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarshalN (talk • contribs) 16:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Withering of leaves before maocha 

message: There are today official variants of the Pinyin spelling system for regional languages in China.
Official Cantonese language Pinyin should be used in:
"In the Cantonese language, it is known as po-lay (or bo-lay) tea."
If there is a previously established English rendering (such as "po-lay") this should also be indicated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.244.110 (talk) 08:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cantonese spelling 

message: This article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2583137,00.html
mentions:
"... retracing an ancient trans-Himalayan tea route ... the 1,400-mile Tea Horse Caravan Road from Deqin in Yunnan province, southwest China, to the Tibetan capital, Lhasa ... on ... to Nepal ... a group of travellers following the ancient Pu’er Tea Company trade route, where tea has been traded for horses for more than 1,000 years ..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.244.110 (talk) 08:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical "Pu-er Tea Company" with trade route to India 

message: Bearsbearsbears once said: "Can we create a disambiguation page that would redirect "Pu'er" to "Pu-erh"? Or, better yet, considering that "pu'er" is the pinyin form, and this tea is from the mainland, rename this post entirely to "Pu'er Tea"?
So somebody made the article "pu erh", as requested. Bearsbearsbears in one go wants to redirect "pu er" to "pu erh", and then says "better yet", basically lets rename the whole thing "pu er". Wtf??
I believe all references that state "pu erh" need to be changed to "pu er" (as was bearsbearsbears' original request... although perhaps bears was feeling a little lightheaded when writing that). 
Also, we have canto romanization in the article, so I've added pinyin. Absolutely crazy not to have it, seeing that it IS from Yunnan.
What is with "pu erh"? What's with the h? And yes, I'm aware of the risk of starting another huge war over this pinyin vs Wade Giles issue. Now just in case Wade Giles lovers like Badagnani disagree, from the word go I'll say, "I don't care" what you think. :) It's from Yunnan. It's called "pu3 er3" and that's the way it is. Not "pu erh". See the times article quoted above :)
Goodnight. Djwatson 22:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pu erh?? 

message: From WP:RM:
*:Pu-erh tea → :Pu-erh — a type of Chinese tea, "Pu-erh" redirects there and is not used in any other articles. Though I didn't see it at first or thought of it, a google search of "Pu-erh" turns up the Chinese tea MUCH more than the Dragon Ball  character Pu-erh. I'm also using Oolong tea which redirects to Oolong as an example to this, as "tea" is uneeded in the page title. —~I'm anonymous 04:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing.  I'll propose a move of Oolong so it matches the scores of other tea varieties, OK?   —  AjaxSmack    05:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move request

message: This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
* Lack of (or very little) references in some sections of the article, such as the investment, storage, and other sections 
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are being addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, OhanaUnitedTalk page 15:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As there's no significant improvement to sourcing information. I'm now delisting this article. OhanaUnitedTalk page 20:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Sweeps 

message: Just so you all know, if I can find sufficient sources, I'd like to add a section on counterfeit detection, as it could help the reader, I think. Thanks. --Isaiah 21:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identifying Counterfeits 

message: I have been cleaning up references on a number of tea-related articles.  I have found fairly heavy WP:CITESPAM on articles, mostly including blogs, self-published sites, and company sites.  It's hard to say where the sloppy sourcing ends and citation spam begins, but I think that because tea is a profit-making industry, and tea company sites are selling something, and because they are self-published, we need to be extra-cautious of referencing company websites--only doing so when there is strong reason to trust the source.  This fits with the guidelines on WP:RS.
I kept the sources to http://www.pu-erh.net/, because that site identifies the author by name, is old / well-established, and shows evidence of thorough research.  But even that is somewhat questionable and I'd be open to discussion of removing that as a source if others are critical of it.  But besides that one, I think the other self-published sites, including company sites need to go.  If anyone wants to add them back, please give justification here before doing so.  In general, some sort of compelling reason is necessary.  I.e, per WP:SPS:
:Self-published material may in some circumstances be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.
Cazort (talk) 16:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the hard work! -- Sjschen (talk) 15:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up References 

message: *Tea Studies Index
*addresses Puer (green and dark)
*raw/green Puer青普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > sun drying曬乾 
*ripe/dark Puer熟普: sun fixation曬青 > rolling揉捻 > piling 渥堆 > sun drying曬乾 
Puerh should have sun fixation and sun drying.
Added processes: green Puerh and dark Puerh can be compress into cakes and aged.
fixation曬青 is shaqing
rolling揉捻 is kneading 
dark tea黑茶 is what some call "red tea", but this can cause confusion for rooibos and "black tea紅茶"
Puer/h or Pu'/-er is a place and should be capital (P)u/'/-/er/h
icetea8 (talk) 03:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology

message: Too much of the content of this article is influenced by marketing intent for price speculation of the tea and a lot lack references of reputable sources other than the marketers' or price auction news. Formal academic contents and independent references are missing here, and yet Wikipedia has not been marking this. If there is no argument in realigning at least the introductory, origin and nature of the tea variety into a more encyclopedic accuracy, I shall go ahead and re-write this article, bit by bit, whenever I have the time, starting from tomorrow.
Kwanchungleung (talk) 10:03, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much marketing content from price speculation influence 

message: this should be spelled in common English using raw tea or maocha, "á" puncuation is for Chinese. icetea8 (talk) 15:12, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: another term for raw tea can be taken from the fact, after "Primary Tea Processes 茶葉初制" we have primary processed tea. about the spelling of Pue(')r, if you look at this tea's wrapper (do a search on google) it will usually be written without the ('). it is vital that we editors to use simple English and consistency for the good of this article, i dont want a spelling war over this tea, all that will happen is more confusion. what is the purpose of putting the ( ' )in the term ? icetea8 (talk) 15:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

text: i have removed  "copyedit tag", discussion of spelling convention should be brought out here not in the article, icetea8 (talk) 15:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Added in the first sentence, Pu'er, Pu-erh, Puer, (pronounced: poo-urr or poo-air). icetea8 (talk) 13:17, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: máochá

message: I've changed the information on shou and sheng to correct a factual error in the originally cited article. I will do further research to find citations and further clarify the point. My understanding is that cooked pu-erh is stored in humid rooms to accelerate post-fermentation ripening. They become qualitatively different teas based on whether they are "cooked" or not. JonSidener (talk) 06:03, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The process actually involves spraying the tea with water, not just storing in humid rooms. The process is in fact highly controlled composting. I do have an issue with changing the term to "cooked", which I don't see as an accurate translation of the the term "shou". -- Sjschen (talk) 16:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cooked (shou) / Raw (Sheng) 

message: Great article. On a site with so many non-notable articles it is a pleasure to find an in depth treatment of an important topic. The only thing lacking as far as I can see is information on the commercial value of this tea. 66.249.80.86 (talk) 07:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  congratulations to editors and request for commercial value section 

message: Great and reliable source: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3344 
--Espoo (talk) 01:08, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cantonese 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The intro has some points which would be correct, if this article were solely about shou pu er. The consideration of sheng as hei cha is contentious, but not the biggest offender. The intro reads as if all pu er undergoes the wo dui process, and implies that all fermentation in the context of pu er is solely related to wo dui as well (this is contradicted later in the article, where it explains the difference in how sheng ferments over time)
Personally I think it'd just be better for them to have two separate pages, but if they are destined to be under one, please consider rewriting the intro. It's not nearly misinformative as most pu er writings out there, but it's a pretty misleading summary.
My suggestion would be to introduce pu er, mention both production styles, give a minor overview of each, don't lay too hard into the contentious provenance of shou (citation sorely needed on the proposition that the sole reason it was invented was to mimic aged sheng), and leave the description of wo dui for latter portions of the article. The little overview of fermentation can be changed to indicate that both undergo fermentation, but through significantly different methods. 2601:183:200:3D30:8D1E:2446:405C:8076 (talk) 12:41, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro needs revising; reads as if all pu er undergoes wo dui 

message: — Assignment last updated by Rheaxx666 (talk) 18:26, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA22 - Sect 200 - Thu