Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 2

message: These are only some of my references - you ask a lot but never read them - 
Pukhtun Economy and Society: Traditional Structure and Economic Development in a Tribal Society (1980) by Dr Akbar S. Ahmed - and especially for you:
Millennium and Charisma among Swat Pathans, Dr Akbar S. Ahmed (by the way this refers to the Yousafzai who now occupy Swat). 
My question to you: on Wikipedia Pashtun article - why don't you allow the two view points of what is a Pashtun? Why don't you allow readers to make up their own mind - let them weigh up the evidence and decide. That's the whole beauty of Wikipedia, that you are given the opportunity to look at "both sides of the same coin," and not FORCED one viewpoint from one angle only.
Everyone else who has been contributing to the Pashtun page has no problem with the two definitions. 
Second Question:
You wrote earlier:"My speacial comments for you that People living In Pashtunkhwa from hundreds and thousands of years definetely would be consider Pashtuns, dosn't matter if they have migeratted from Arab or they belong to Aryans, It was HISTORY which make them united through LANGUAGE, CULTURE AND TRADITIONS (In short Pashtunwali)". 
Now, everyone who lives in that region practices Pashtunwali - including the Sikhs, the Hindus and the Gujars and the other non-Pathan tribes. What distinguishes one from the other is the EXTENT to which they carry it out. I.e. in a case of "Tor" ie. female dishonour where a boy and girl have eloped, the father will kill his son and the girls parents will kill their daughter, but a non-Pathan may not carry it out to that extreme (i.e. the mother may intervene and beg the father to spare the son/daughter)- although they can also. 
My question to you is that if Osama bin laden stays in the tribal areas (just for the sake of argument assume he is there) - and if he follows pashtunwali - will he be the father of a "NEW" "Pashtun" tribe?? the Osama Khel?? This is what your statement is saying. It makes the Pathan geneologies a joke.
Insaaf.
==Reply but not a Final One2==
 
I have never here or any place else thrust my point of view to Friends, listeners, it's up to them to make up their mind. I have always discussed in a positive way to find the facts. But you are just trying to thrust your views on us.Poeple have equal rights to write/send whatever they like. 
Yes It was History, which make them united through their LANGUAGE, CULTURE AND TRADITIONS. Do you have any single example in the history of the world, just one man has delivered a NATION, Qais baba had four sons namely Batani, Sarbatni, Ghorghust and Karlani(was not a real son), one of them was found under the Karai(Pashto word) since then they called Karlani? Now point is, can you see any mixing or purity about Karlani right from the begening in Pashtuns, the infant which was found might be a Turk or Tajik and Arab or whatever, definitely not a Pashtun because Qais baba had only three real sons, why will you consider Karlanis(which include Wazirs, Masuds, Afridis, Khattaks and Banuchis etc) as authentic Pashtun tribe even you know what you have your own views through different references ... or will you agree me, every tribe who have slowly and gradually converted and created Pashtunwali through evolutionary period would be condider Pashtuns? Every one around now have better knowledge that KARLANIS are much GREATER PASHTUNS as compare to others.
Will you please define a word you mentioned "TOR", If you meant a Pashto word, which is Black in English then you will be considered wrong because Pashtuns don't use the verb Tor for your above said crime (boy and girl), It is mostly used by Sindhis as "KARI" and "KARO"(black girl and black boy) for the above mentioned sin. We would simply call them like "Alak ao Genai Makh tor ka", We don't have to immitate terms from our Sindhi brothers. Try to be some positive about Pashtuns rather than mentioning these sort of talks.
What a man would expect of you who even don't like to write "Peace be upon him" with the GREAT GREAT GREAT name of Mohammad(Sallallaho Allaihi Wassallam).
Please don't try to switch and toggle here and there by asking such a rediculous querry like about "suppose, assume, think etc".
Do you think the creation of a Nation is just an overnight game, It takes centuries and thousands of years through evolution, Osama Khel ?? *smiling*
 
You will be highly appreciated if you go to Pashtun main page and click on Bhittani, Barakzai, Khilji, Mahsud, Mohammadzai and Barakzai to fill those empty boxes with some bright side positive information about these great Pashtun tribes.
Haider
:Amen to that!—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 19:37, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
==== Reply "to "202.142.186.2 -Anonymous- Re: Swatis ====
AT LAST!
I am glad that you now will not delete views that are not supportive of your own view from the Pashtun article on Wikipedia. This whole discussion has been worthwhile!!! (P.
I am also glad that you now do look at tribal genealogy names to determine who is a "Pashtun"  - this is why belonging to a TRIBE is important in being recognised asa Pathan - hence the Afridis and Yousafzai of Bhopal.
(...but there is a catch in your wording - why just "positive information??" - why can't we write controversial issues as long as we support them with references and let the readers decide. Controversial issues at least "peak" the readers interest and cause them to initiate their own research. This is the beauty of Wikipedia - is it not?)
Insaaf
==Reply Bhopali Pathan==
I am glad also to be catched but the point is what was I trying to catch, that was just for the sake of Pashtun tribes but "Spi lakai ba sama nashi"understandable if you are a Pashtun, otherwise consult your Pashtun friend if you are a BHOPALI PATHAN*smiling*
Reading/Writing need some virtuosity which I am sure you don't have. I think you will take centuries like what really happened in the past, slow and steady wins the race but the race is over, by taking that much time definetely you will become the father of another race like Canada Khel as same as Bhopal Khel ! There is always Tit for Tat.
Don't worry I won't delete/erase any material wether in favour or not, let readers to decide now.
Don't forget to visit us in future because "Never say Never Again".
Take care PATHAN(another race).
==Reply Bhopali Pathan -to 202.142.186.2  ==
Language and culture can be learnt by anyone - as they say in Pashto:
"A dog's tail doesn't become straight, 
even if it is kept in a pipe for a hundred years" 
There are many others, and I'm sure you know them. Sadly for you it's only now that you've realised what they really mean! REAL Pathans have known all along (as you can tell from the Pashto proverbs) that language and culture can be lost and acquired, but being able to trace yourself to the Geneolgical tree of the Pathans is what eventually counts regardless of everything - hence the reason why there are so many proverbs on this subject. (*definitely having the last laugh*)
Insaaf.
==Reply==
Thanks replying
Now what you doing is tilting away of our main discussion, we were trying to convince each other but failed then why don't we better let readers to make up their own minds, as tried to write the two most prominent views about pashtuns, one of them  lineal defition as from one Progenitor like Qais Abdul Rasheed and second one is Cultural defition as hundreds of years of history in the relevant geographic area, who speak the same language(Pashto) and live in a similar manner.(Pashtunwali) Continue
The Pashtun tribe Swati has been proven through both from it's Cultural and Lineal definitions, the matter of include and exlude would not effect any more.
But incase of Bhopali Pathans you have just one way, the Geneolgical defintion, which you think is in favour to include them as Pashtuns, that's the reason why you insist on only one view. The language and calture can be lost and acquired but defentiely it will take atleast one or two hundred years if willing after that who will give them a certificate of as they are homogeneous not heterogeneous because living hundreds of years without culture and language with other Muslims and Non Muslim people of Bhopal, mixture will be quite visible.
:See #Pakhtunwali below.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:36, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
==Reply to: 202.142.186.2==
The purpose of this discussion was to allow the two definitions of "who is a Pashtun" to remain on the article page so that the reader can decide. This has now been met - end of story. 
This debate has been going on in Pathan hujras for centuries and it would be foolish of you to think that it can be resolved once and for all on this discussion page. Just bear in mind all the proverbs to help you decide which definition is correct:
"When the donkey returns from Mecca it remains a donkey." Pashto proverb.
===Reply===
----
Dear Anonymous..... Yes that what I meant exactly, debate and discussion about Pashtuns were from centuries and it will keep continue due it's importance as an interesting subject but don't you think that should be in a delicate way rather than to defame anyone as majority of Western authors did in the past. Author like James W Spain, what she wrote esp about Pashtun Tribes like Afridis, Bannuchis and Dawars, she just looks satisfied with Yousafzais and few more tribes, that's what I am against authors like that who just tried and trying to let the World to see Pashtun vs Pashtun through discrimination. Atleast you would get my this point. If you do believe in Lineal way, that's your right but try to think on the Culture way also, in which I do believe in. I don't believe in the Creater, Originater, Inventor, Builder, Author, Designer, Founder, Mastermind, Maker, Planner and  Father would be just one man for the entire Pashtuns or Pashtuns of his time(even in a limited area) had accepted him as symbolic Progenitor, which will be more suspecious for your accepted view, would go in favour of Cultural view.(same language, same culture etc).
For your interest a Poetry by Dr Yaseen Iqbal Yousafzai, hope you will enjoy it to translate.  --  Haider 15:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: Reply not a Final One1

message: The purpose of this discussion was to allow the two definitions of "who is a Pashtun" to remain on the article page so that the reader can decide. This has now been met - end of story. 
This debate has been going on in Pathan hujras for centuries and it would be foolish of you to think that it can be resolved once and for all on this discussion page. Just bear in mind all the proverbs to help you decide which definition is correct:
"When the donkey returns from Mecca it remains a donkey." Pashto proverb.
===Reply===
----
Dear Anonymous..... Yes that what I meant exactly, debate and discussion about Pashtuns were from centuries and it will keep continue due it's importance as an interesting subject but don't you think that should be in a delicate way rather than to defame anyone as majority of Western authors did in the past. Author like James W Spain, what she wrote esp about Pashtun Tribes like Afridis, Bannuchis and Dawars, she just looks satisfied with Yousafzais and few more tribes, that's what I am against authors like that who just tried and trying to let the World to see Pashtun vs Pashtun through discrimination. Atleast you would get my this point. If you do believe in Lineal way, that's your right but try to think on the Culture way also, in which I do believe in. I don't believe in the Creater, Originater, Inventor, Builder, Author, Designer, Founder, Mastermind, Maker, Planner and  Father would be just one man for the entire Pashtuns or Pashtuns of his time(even in a limited area) had accepted him as symbolic Progenitor, which will be more suspecious for your accepted view, would go in favour of Cultural view.(same language, same culture etc).
For your interest a Poetry by Dr Yaseen Iqbal Yousafzai, hope you will enjoy it to translate.  --  Haider 15:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to: 202.142.186.2

message: ----
Dear Anonymous..... Yes that what I meant exactly, debate and discussion about Pashtuns were from centuries and it will keep continue due it's importance as an interesting subject but don't you think that should be in a delicate way rather than to defame anyone as majority of Western authors did in the past. Author like James W Spain, what she wrote esp about Pashtun Tribes like Afridis, Bannuchis and Dawars, she just looks satisfied with Yousafzais and few more tribes, that's what I am against authors like that who just tried and trying to let the World to see Pashtun vs Pashtun through discrimination. Atleast you would get my this point. If you do believe in Lineal way, that's your right but try to think on the Culture way also, in which I do believe in. I don't believe in the Creater, Originater, Inventor, Builder, Author, Designer, Founder, Mastermind, Maker, Planner and  Father would be just one man for the entire Pashtuns or Pashtuns of his time(even in a limited area) had accepted him as symbolic Progenitor, which will be more suspecious for your accepted view, would go in favour of Cultural view.(same language, same culture etc).
For your interest a Poetry by Dr Yaseen Iqbal Yousafzai, hope you will enjoy it to translate.  --  Haider 15:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply