Talk:Betting in poker

message: Not knowing a lot about poker, I am confused by the description of the "Dead button rule." What does "the big blind is posted by the player due for it" mean? What is "busting out"? PenguiN42 17:19, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Big blind is now wikied in the article. Busting out means eliminated because they have lost all their chips, but in this context could mean just "leaves the game" for whatever reason. 2005 19:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The sad fact is that even experienced players often find these rules complicated (especially the moving button rule). The rule variations represent trade-offs between complexity and equity. The simplified moving button rule is the most simple, but also the least equitable (a player could miss both the big and small blinds). The moving button rule is the most complex, but also the most equitable (no blinds are missed, the button always moves). The dead button rule is popular (especially in tournaments) because it represents a middle ground between the moving button and simplified moving button rules. If you are new to the game and just playing with friends for fun, consider using the simplified button rule.--Toms2866 06:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I expounded a lot on this rule.  Hopefully its clearer now. —Kymacpherson 04:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jargon in "Dead button rule" 

message: I've never seen a "sleep" allowed in a casino, but I've seen it played in home games.  My take on it was that it gives too much advantage to the player that makes the straddle; its like a mini-raise with impunity—the player can pull his money back if there is a raise in front of him, which realistically removes all the risk of straddling.  I'm guessing thats why its not played in casinos; if it were, players would be sleep straddling literally every hand.  If its listed here, the description should at least be qualified by a statement that it is not played in real money games.  On the other hand, there probably should be a description of a "rock" (obligatory straddle) somewhere on this page or some other article, because that's played in casinos a lot and I've even played in a casino that enforced the rock rules. —Kymacpherson 21:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mind obscure home game stuff listed, but this literally has not one reference on the Internet besides this article (and clones of it).  That's a few miles past trivial to me.  Since it can't be cited if someone wants to make a paranthetical-type sentence about it, fine, but it certainly doesn't merit a peer heading as a type of straddle of similar importance to the others since it is literally not mentioned online except here. 2005 00:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually it wouldn't, so please save the presumptions.  Casinos don't use this, since it makes no sense, and even if some outback place did, the fact it isn't refered to at all makes the terminology suspect rather than the actual practice.  A cite from one cardroom somewhere should not be impossible.  You've written many good articles here, but you need to defer to Wikipedia guidelines, in terms of citations and no original research, and also not make presumptions that your expertise is greater than others, which it most certainly is not. (The Cooke citations is plentty to keep an obscure term, but without it it certainly should not have been in the article.) 2005 02:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I wrote a good portion of the Wikipedia guidelines, too, back when there were just a few hundred of us.  Most people don't know that because the earliest versions of the Wikipedia software didn't permanently archive the oldest articles, so the early major contributors don't show up in the stats.  As far as "expert" status goes, I'll stack my experience and expertise in casino poker room practices against anyone on the planet, and that includes the authors of the best books on the subject, most of whom I know (at least the west coasters--my experience is admittedly mostly in Nevada, California, and Washington).  But that's really beside the point anyway; Ky is right about the strategic advantage being unfair, and that's why most cardrooms don't allow it anymore. But this article isn't about casino poker--it's about poker, and shouldn't be limited to present casino practices. As far as "terminology" goes, what poker players call these things and always have called them is "sleepers".  I really don't see why failure to find the term on the web should automatically make it suspect when it's a well-known term in the industry.  --LDC 13:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well now this starts to make more sense, but also raises another question.  What you described are not "sleeepers".  I thought you were saying Cooke mentions in his second version of the book about something called a "sleeper straddle".  "Sleepers" are different, and that is available in the original Caro/Cooke book. I don't know what this thing you are describing is, but it isn't a "sleeper", so I'm adding the definition of a sleeper with the cite. There may be some home game rules where you can "take back" a bet, or is live, but that is not a sleeper.  I also took out the "as in hold 'em or Omaha" statement since it mistakenly implies flop games, when Draw games can use straddles, when they are blind games rather than ante games. 2005 20:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I've always used the terms interchangeably; Cooke's book admittedly describes them badly, and there may be rule variations.  His book describes straddles in general in a section titled "Straddles and sleepers", and does not clarify the latter at all well.  What I described is the way I used to play them in small clubs in California in the 80s (which was lowball--you are also correct about it not being a flop game thing).  --LDC 06:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Straddles 

message: does anyone else find this article overly complex? I am especially interested to hear from those who don't play poker - Abscissa 17:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I most certainly do. In particular I wanted to know about betting in Texas Hold 'Em. Recently friends I had not played it with before stated that bets in a round merely add to what was there before. Say 3 people are betting, 2 have bet $10. Player 3 then raises $5 (making his bet $15). According to my friends, players 1 and 2 just have to both bet $5 more in order to be calling Player 3s raise. This makes no sense to me as every bet is it's own and I've only played where 1 and 2 would have to bet another $15 each to be both calling. AnarchyElmo 02:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I found this article maddening. I want to know the betting order for 5 card draw - the article is talking about Big Blind and Flop and River and how does any of that apply to 3 people playing 5 card draw? Too many terms, not enough clarity!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.76.196.66 (talk) 23:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I hope it is clearer now. It sounds like you are playing 5 card draw with antes not blinds, so start from the player to the dealers left. If the same person is always physically dealing the cards or you have a casino employee dealing you need some marker to act as a dealer button to mark who should be considered dealer for the purpose of taking turns. This moves one step to the left after each hand.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.212.36.193 (talk) 21:56, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  complicated? 

message: Should something about "check raising" be added to the  procedure section (with link to Check-raise)? Added either to 1.3 (check) or as a new section 1.5, making "Fold" 1.6? Crowmanyclouds (talk) 19:24, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add Check Raise? 

message: The article states:
"To call is to match a bet or a raise."
and then in the next paragraph:
"A player calling instead of raising with a strong hand is smooth calling, a form of slow play."
The first quote says call means to match a bet or to raise it.  The second quote discusses "calling instead of raising".
Clarification is needed here.Daqu (talk) 05:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're misinterpreting the first sentence: you seem to be parsing it as "to [match a bet] or [raise]", but notice the second "a" there, which makes it correctly parse as "to match [ [a bet] or [a raise] ]". --LDC (talk) 06:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the clarification -- my error.  Still, if the correct interpretation depends solely on carefully noticing that "a", the insertion of the word "either" might help others avoid misinterpreting the definition likewise ("To call is to match either a bet or a raise.").Daqu (talk) 17:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of "call" needs to be clearer

message: small and big blinds post their blinds 400/800, the player to the left UTG goes all in for 2000, middle postion player goes all in for 4000, the player on the button calls the middle player, the small and big blind fold, UTG now can win the main pot of 6000, the side pot is 4000, so who gets the blinds of 1200?
:The blinds are part of the main pot. 2005 (talk) 23:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WHO GETS THE BLINDS 

message: Two players are left in the game after the flop, they both check all the way, the player on the left ask the player on the right what his got, he turns a card to reveal a pair, the player on the left mucks his cards, another player who folded earlier insisting on seeing the muck cards.
Does he have a right to see those cards or does the player only have to show, if the live player ask,s  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Micfuerte (talk • contribs) 13:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: House rules on this vary from one casino to the next.  In many casinos, any player who was dealt in to that hand may ask to see all remaining hands at showdown.  Some casinos limit this to only players who were involved later in the hand.  The rule was originally intended to prevent collusion, but it is often misused by players to get information about other player's habits; this is why many casinos limit the rule.  It also slows the game down and tends to cause arguments. --LDC (talk) 15:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  SHOWING CARDS 

message: * On the article page, under Notes, the link to 'Laws of Poker (PDF), United States Poker Association' is no longer valid. A Google search didn't help to hint to the current whereabouts of USPA. --Cschleiermacher (talk) 17:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The line was referenced by two other sources also, so I just removed this one. 2005 (talk) 22:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken Links 

message: Can someone explain straddles for dummies? The article didn't clearly enough (for me, and I've been playing Poker since 2004). If the player UTG has to basically bet an amount that's double the big blind, and that's called a straddle, what's the difference between that and just someone betting double the big blind without calling it a straddle. Or is there no difference? Have they just decided to give it a name? It's effectively a 3rd blind - the VB (very big) blind. Simply increasing the ante to the small blind amount would be better in my opinion. It would help to stop people from wanting to just sit there forever waiting for aces and only having to pay their SB and BB once per round.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dd4005 (talk • contribs) 10:47, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure thing! I'll try to explain... if somebody (I'll call him UTG because of his position) were to look at his cards and then bet twice the big blind, it's a normal bet and unless somebody raises, UTG won't be able to act again until after the flop. If the game allows it, UTG will have to option to "straddle." Before looking at his cards, UTG can make a blind bet of twice the big blind that will then act as a bigger blind; if there are only callers and no raises, UTG will still be able to act. I hope I've helped... let me know, and good luck on the felts! JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San (talk) 16:26, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks JaeDyWolf, that does explain it in a way that gets into my head better :) So Mr UTG can only do that without looking at his hole cards. Interesting. I'm struggling to see a great advantage of that to the UTG guy. He hasn't seen his cards so really doesn't know if he really wants to even see the flop. Then again, if there are a lot of callers, there's more motivation to see a flop I guess. The reason I ask is that I'm re-watching the first season of GSN's High Stakes Poker. I still think a larger Ante would be better for stimulating action. At least now I know that if I ever was in a game when someone asked if we should do a round of live straddles, I'd not object to it. Now Props on the other hand, that just seems like bingo.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dd4005 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Woah, 16xBB. I'll have to look out for that show - I hadn't heard of it. That hand does sound kind of bingo-ish though. I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone like Sammy Farha was instrumental in that hand. Much thanks for your help on explaining this stuff JaeDyWolf  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dd4005 (talk • contribs) 22:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, he wasn't, but he was running through my head when it happened! It was quite a while ago when I saw it, but I'm fairly sure Patrik Antonius and John Juanda were involved... It may be bingoish but it's INCREDIBLY fun to watch. All the best on the felts! JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San (talk) 23:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Straddles for dummies ?

message: The terminology in this page seems either antiquated or slanted towards stud variants of poker. In most poker discussions these days, "Bet" and "Raise" are the standard aggressive actions, and "Open", while being understood, is a less common term. A "bet" occurs when a player puts money in the pot before there has been any other money put in the pot for that round. This appears to be what the page defines as an "open". A "raise" occurs when a player is not the first person in the round to put money in the pot and that player increases the amount of money required for others to stay in the hand.
This appears to have led to a problem on the Kuhn_poker page which references this page in describing the game. That page describes actions as raises that would more properly be described as bets, and I believe the confusion is due to the definitions on this page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeThicke (talk • contribs) 07:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Open" is the common term as it relates to a specific action (making the first non-forced bet).  "Bet" does not relate to a specific action.  The blinds are "bets" also.  Saying "open" makes the action clear. 2005 (talk) 07:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a common situations in Hold'em: A player is first to act on the flop and puts $10 into the pot. The player would most commonly say, "I bet $10," rather than "I open for $10". The next player would then have the options of folding, calling, or raising. That player would not usually say, "I bet $20" but rather would say, "I raise to $20" or "I raise $10". This convention is pretty ubiquitous in casinos, online discussions, and so on. When "Open" is used in hold'em it is almost always in reference to preflop action. You wouldn't say "I opened the flop for $10." MikeThicke (talk) 19:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said above, the word "open" refers to the specific action of making the first non-forced bet, and that is the common way it is stated. If a person puts out $20, the common phrase is "he opened with a raise". Your point about it not be common on later betting rounds is true, but "open" still is accurate.  If Bob, Carol and Ted are in a pot on the turn, and Bob checks and Carol bets, Carol has "opened" the turn betting. "Carol led the turn betting" also covers it, but open is still accurate and descriptive, while "bet" is not at all descriptive ("first bet" is tho).  "Bet" is a generic term, "open" is a specific subset of betting. (So, some text could be added to clarify common usage, but the word open and the basic concept should be included basically how it is.) 2005 (talk) 23:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This confused me on the "all in" sub-section under "table stakes".  Here I presume "open" is actually meant.  We should be clear, if we mean "open the discretionary betting in the hand" then open is fine, if we mean "open the/a/any round of betting" we must make that clear. Rich Farmbrough, 15:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Open" vs. "Bet" vs. "Raise" 

message: I can't find answer to this question:
In No Limit after incomplete bet or raise - what minimum legal raise may player make?
Example: No Limit, blinds 5/10
Player A 100 chips
Player B 100 chips
Player C 55 chips
Player A bets 20
Player B raises by 30 up to total bet of 50
Player C raises by 5 (all-in) up to total bet of 55 (this is incomplete bet)
If Player A here want to make exactly minimum bet - what that amount should be?
Whether this amount should be "completing to a real raise" - up to 80, or it should be "raising by minimum amount (30)" up to 85?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.117.12.22 (talk) 23:26, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete bet or raise 

message: 'All-In' for me, a beginner, is as confusing as the offside rule in soccer.
There is an additional complication when two or more players have equal hands and the player with the largest stack first declares 'all-in':
e.g.
 Alice has 5K, Barry has 20K. Barry declares 'all-in' and Alice calls.
 They show identical hands. I would expect both to profit equally, Barry more than Alice if there were folded bets in the pot.
 Is there a difference between calling the stack of another player and declaring 'all-in'?
:Yes, there is a difference. When Alice calls Barry's all-in bet, a side pot of $15K is created. If anyone else calls or raises Barry, that adds to the side pot. If not, Barry wins the side pot of $15K and only the main pot is contested. StuSutcliffe 03:07, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You misread the response. Barry declares all-in and Alice calls. IMMEDIATELY when the actions at the table are over, Barry takes back the difference between his stack and hers before anything else (provided there weren't any other players at the table that matched his 20K bet). The order of events in this example are: 1) Barry goes All-in for 20K, 2) Alice calls All-in for 5K, 3) Barry takes back 15K of his 20K bet, 4) The cards are turned over. A player can NEVER win more than 1 x his/her stack per opponent. 24.177.237.132 (talk) 22:15, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  All In 

message: Someone knowledgeable please explain the "under raise" rules in limit and NL poker!
Kluto~enwiki (talk) 00:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Under raise 

message: In section "Open/Bet/Raise" it says: "The sum of the opening bet and all raises is the amount that all players in the hand must call in order to remain [in the game]". 
Is this correct? Shouldn't it be "the maximum total raise"?
If I am "Fred" (see picture) and small blind is $5 and Carol just raised Bob's big blind ($10) by another $10, then what I need to call is $20, not the "sum of opening bet and all raises" as this would be 5+10+20 = 35.
Aenchevich (talk) 11:19, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The opening bet is the big blind, $10. So the "sum of opening bet and all raises" is $20. The small blind isn't the opening bet; no one can enter the pot by only putting in $5 total. 2005 (talk) 19:52, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The sum of all raises" - is this correct? 

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