Talk:Israeli Air Force

message: i think there should be a part that covers the israeli involement in the JSF project.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Topsecrete (talk • contribs) 21:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  JSF 

message: The following
 * The Israeli Air Force is considered as the strongest air force is the Middle East and as one of the best and most sophisticated air forces in the world. The Israeli combat pilots are considered as the best in world, together with the American pilots, and hold a large number of shoot-downs records.
* June 5, 1967 - the Six Day War: The destruction of the entire Egyptian air-force within 3 hours. By the end of the day the Syrian and Jordanian air forces were wiped out as well. The IAF achieved a total air-superiority for the rest of the war, that ended with an amazing victory for Israel. The IAF shoot-down total at the end of the war was a claimed record of 451 enemy aircraft downed versus of its own 10 downed.  See: Operation Red Sheet.
* Obtaining the first shoot-downs for the American fighter jets, the F-15 and the F-16.
* 1981: The first and only attack in history of a nuclear reactor; The destruction of the Iraqi Osiraq nuclear reactor: Eight IAF F-16 fighters flew to Iraq and bombed the nuclear facilties of Osiraq. Among the pilots that took part in the attack was the late Ilan Ramon, Israel's first astronaut.
* 1982: The destruction of the entire Soviet-Syrian air-defence system in Lebanon without a single warplane lost; Syria with the U.S.S.R built up an overlapping network of SAMs, and the density of SAM site locations was unmatched anywhere in the world including the U.S.S.R. itself. Also the IAF achieved in dogfights a total of 80 Syrian planes shoot-downs, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.
* 1985: The bombing of PLO Headquarters in Tunis, Tunisia, the longest combat mission ever undertaken by the IAF.
* The only documented emergency landing of an F-15 with only one wing. A few months later, the damaged F-15 had been given a new wing, and returned to operational duty in the squadron. The engineers at McDonnell Douglas had a hard time believing the story of the one-winged landing: as far as their planning models were concerned, this was an impossibility.
 
* In the United States Air Force and the air forces of several European countries, an ace is a pilot who has shot down 5 or more enemy planes. The Israeli Air force boasts 39 pilots who shot down 5 or more planes, and 10 of these have shot down more than 8 planes.
* One of these pilots, Col. (Res.) Giora Even (Epstein), stands out as the unquestioned Ace of Aces, having shot down a record 17 (seventeen!) planes in the course of his amazing career. Epstein has held his record for 25 years, and needless to say - is a true IAF icon, and an object of veneration for generations of IAF pilots. And the record is not confined to the IAF: according to the Guinness Book of World Records, the world record holder for jet air victories is an American pilot who shot down 16 planes. Apparently, someone had better tell the Guinness guys about Giora Epstein.
* 687 enemy airplanes have been shot down in dogfights since Israel`s birth- May of 1948, while only 23 Israeli planes have been shot down by enemy planes since 1948.
* IAF is holding world records for the air force with the highest number of enemy's warplanes shoot-downs, air combats, special operations, and air to ground operations, since the end of World-War II.
 
has some parts copied from here and consist of possible copy rights infrigment. 
Hence, the page is reverted to previous version. 
User: 62.0.93.195, your contribution is welcomed, but please try to summarize the data instead of copy it. See also: Wikipedia:copyrights. MathKnight 11:38, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Copy Right infringement 

message: The trivia about an "emergency landing of an F-15 with one wing" is absolutely fasle. As a pilot of many hundreds of flight hours I can swear this is not possible because you need to have a balance of lifting forces in both sides of the aircraft's center of gravity. Flying with a part of wing missing is possible (but not usual), flying without a wing is not. You can find a set of pictures of the dammaged aircraft wich are bad fakes. In those you can see different weapons configurations on the same aircraft and a naked people on the runway below the plane (second picture) !!! 
That's why I think cleaning this trivia is a good thing for wikipedia.
you can join me as " seb' " on the french wikipedia.
–This is true. You can contact Boeing if you want and ask them. DeepSpace 09:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't the place to be discussing the F-15 trivia. Take it to the F-15 Talk page.--chris.lawson 23:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning the F-15 trivia

message: Looking at other air force articles such as USAF or RAF or Royal Canadian Air Force, perhaps we should just maintain one history section on this article? Thoughts? Sasquatch  t|c 20:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging History and Records and Highlights 

message: Shouldn't it be Israel Air Force (without the genititve-i? (like Israel Defense Forces) --Pax:Vobiscum 09:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  name of article 

message: I've removed part of the recently added text to the caption accompanying the CH-53 photo. I see that text as subtle POV pushing - over-emphasizing the fact that one such aircraft was shot down in the recent war over Lebanon, while none of the other aircraft photos in the article have anything similar.  The editor who insists on adding that text claims he's doing so becuase the aircraft are not well-known. In that case, I wonder if he;d be Ok with a caption that says "CH-53 landing, similar to the ones used to ambush Iraqi convoys in the Yom Kippur War" ?
I will not be ok with such a caption because aircraft crash is major incident and there is no need of mention which aircraft ambushed which convoy.User talk:Yousaf465
:You claime dthat you added the caption becuase people are not familiar with the aircraft. I'm glad to see you've backed of that nonsensical charge. An aircraft being downed in a war is a hardly a major incident - it is a trivial, common and expected event. You are merely POV pushing. Isarig 05:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CH-53 Caption 

message: I've prepared some userboxes for different Air Forces freaks - if you would like to use it, feel free to copy & paste following code in your Babel Tower or another place:
	
	
	
	
All are essentially the same, but represent different camouflage schemes. --Piotr Mikołajski 07:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the userboxes. There's just one thing - the Israeli Air Force is generally abbreviated to IAF, not IDFAF, and that is also the official name. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Userbox 

message: Current aircraft table lists the OH-58D as being in service with the IAF, however, the IAF official website does not list the OH-58D or any Bell 406 variant as being in service; only the Bell 206. --Born2flie 20:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  OH-58D 

message: The two different sections on the Six Day War (history and highlights) on this page show different amounts of Israeli planes shot down (10 and 19 respectively).  I don't know which, if either, are correct - perhaps someone with more knowledge and/or time could research and edit as appropriate. Chirpy 18:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflicting Information 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Tnbs-021.jpg

message: His rank is stated as "Aluf" in this article.  "Aluf" is the designation for a General or an Admiral, Giora Epstien retired at 55 as an "Aluf Misne," a Colonel, he was never an General or Admiral.Joeycfc 16:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giora Epstein's Rank 

message: http://www.inss.org.il/upload/(FILE)1206270841.pdf Flayer (talk) 14:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  up to date numbers 

message: Is it confirmed or probable, because there are two lines that say the same thing in the other section.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.202.146.202 (talk) 20:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  First shootdowns of F-16/F-15 

message: I'd like to merge this photographs into the pertinent areas, preferably in the "current aircrafts" section but I've had some trouble doing that. 
 
 
 
 
 
Suggestions? Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging pics into article 

message: the israeli ai force phased out the Arava in the middle of 2004
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/iaf-equipment.htm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.48.31 (talk) 22:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  IAI Arava 

message: The records and highlights section really had no place in a serious article and is therefore GONE. It was nothing but a relic of an ancient IDF site anyway. All relevant data has been merged into the historical section, except for some anecdotal info which has been removed. I've also moved several paragraphs around, trying to introduce some logical order. The nuclear weapons section, for instance, has been moved into the structure section, as it begins with the units supposedly operating the stuff. I've tried to delete as little as possible, keeping as many as the previous contributions as possible. Poliocretes (talk) 15:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Records and Highlights" section removed 

message: The INSS reference suggst different numbers than those were included in the infobox. Flayer wrote that the former numbers are based on comparisons of several different sources. Doing it this way isn't highly recommended and comprise  original research. We do know that the INSS is a respectful official organization and that their report was published in 2009, meaning that it's very up to date. What more that it have no signfican mistakes. The fact that there are no F-4E combat fighters in the article table, for instance, is a mistake that previous editors could avoid if they would give more credit to the INSS.--Gilisa (talk) 11:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately INSS lost most of its creditability. F-4 fighters were decommissioned, as well as a portion of F-15A/B's and F-16A/B's, there were various official publications about this fact. Some other aircraft they keep in the list were also officially decommissioned. Take a look on Combat vessels section - Aliya class appears in the list, though INS Aliya and INS Geula were sold and launched in Mexico as ARM Huracán and ARM Tormenta more than 5 years ago! Flayer (talk) 12:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

text: By the way, I was the person who brought here this INSS reference (and the previous one as well) before I actually read it carefully. Flayer (talk) 12:29, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I found the INSS source before I know it's here already. INS vessels are not part of the discussion on IAF inventory and there is no one single public source on military affairs that is 100% accurate.--Gilisa (talk) 12:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Solution per talk and talk. Range of different sources estimations (min and max; recommend on recent ones) in the size entry instead of decisive numbers.--Gilisa (talk) 12:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Size of the Israeli air force

message: Any word as to what type of bomb?  And is this tied in with the F-35s?
The best American bunker busters are dropped by B-2s, but we ain't selling those to nobody.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/09/21/bloomberg1376-L935B16S972801-3G4V2G2OHHKG4UIE5V75BJQF5G.DTL
Among other advanced weaponry sought by Israel, Barak intends to ask the U.S. for "bunker buster" bombs that can penetrate hardened underground targets, the YNet news site reported yesterday, without saying where it got the information.
Hcobb (talk) 04:37, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: GBU-28. Flayer (talk) 09:30, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bunker Buster Bombs 

message: So far I have found only that one article that mention the Sky Crows and I have no squadron number, but their noted aircraft does not match any of the other squadrons at the named air base.  So what gives?  Hcobb (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is apparently a unit, not a squadron. Unit 555 according to IAF official site in Hebrew. Flayer (talk) 09:27, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sky Crows 

message: Why do we need 3 unique in-service tables? So we have three sources that provide similar data, so why do we need to create different tables to demonstrate the irrelevant differences? It is totally confusing. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a closer look, the data isn't similar and the differences aren't irrelevant. Three independent sources provide data, which is erroneous in some cases, but allows greater image. Non of the stand-alone sources is completely free of stupid mistakes, while the IAF itself would never provide any OrBat table due to OpSec. Flayer (talk) 19:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The data table is very confusing because it shows four different tables for each aircraft. I thought 20+27+38 (85) F16A Baz, but really it is only one of those numbers. Look at this table: "Notice the simplicity. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: We can't achieve this simplicity until we have one source that is clearly more reliable then other sources, or multiple sources that say one thing. Now we have 4-5 *reliable* sources that say different things. Flayer (talk) 07:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we rearrange the data to show a more readable chart? Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:24, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, but I'm curious how can we do it without losing data. Flayer (talk) 08:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing data table 

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thread_title: File:Coat of arms of the Israeli Air Force.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: Does Ido Nehushtan count as a reliable source for this claim? And when the fnord are we going to turn on archiving for this page? Hcobb (talk) 22:02, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The context of this claim, is that Israel shouldn't cut IAF budget. Flayer (talk) 23:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't he always going to say that? My query is if his claim actually holds up to scrutiny. Will a handful of poorly maintained aircraft in the hands of terrorists actually overwhelm the IAF? Hcobb (talk) 00:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Israel's aerial superiority is in danger

message: The articale is missing information about the IAF have an education branch in charge of educational facilities (The air and space technical colleges , all the training facilities as an example (ביסל"ט 21)) - each shoher is serving in this kind of facilities (I've edited   one but more help is needed - example in the Hebrew wikipedia iaf articale on the subject
The articale is missing information about the maintenance branches example Air-force Maintenance unit 22 Hebrew (Eng.  / R&D /maintance/salvaging) , the Lhav units (Logistics Eng Control)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.226.24.240 (talk) 20:21, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing branches in the command=

message: The Israeli AH-1 Cobra's are phased out in favor of Drones according to http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/28/arms-israel-airforce-idUSL5N0KQ2ER20140528  — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrandMaster101 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bell AH-1 Cobra Retired 

message: A table designed for "potential things" appears to go against Wikipedia:Notability, WP:NOTNEWS, and WP:CBALL. So at best a small sentence, can exist for the reader as per WP:AIRCRAFT-OPERATORS - FOX 52 (talk) 17:57, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. If a definite purchase order has been made it is one thing. But if it is just in evaluation (as the future heli buy is, still considering types and might not go through budgeting....) it shouldn't be in a table.Icewhiz (talk) 18:24, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Future 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is a section called "Historic" This is incorrect.  That word means important in history.  The correct word is "historical" which means relating to the past.  I can't edit this myself due to the article being locked. Man with two legs (talk) 11:46, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed.Icewhiz (talk) 14:23, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vocabulary: should be "Historical" not "Historic" 

message: The reason that the article has remained at Israeli Air Force since the 2004 Hebrew name change is that it has remained the common name. Even now, the official website continues to use the older, shorter title. As such, an RM is unlikely to be successful. Thanks. BilCat (talk) 21:24, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You're probably right. There are plenty of cases when we use the more precise name within the articles themselves (as was done sporadically on this page before with the air and space arm), while leaving the WP:COMMONNAME as the main title. Garuda28 (talk) 21:27, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. BilCat (talk) 21:28, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Now, to establish consensus: does anyone here have issues with mentioning that the Israeli Air Force was renamed to the Israeli Air and Space Force back in 2004? Here is the best English language source I could find: (https://spacenews.com/israel-puts-air-force-charge-space-activities-hotly-debated-decision-renames-service-israel/); the secondary question is how to deal with it within articles. I would think that it makes sense to replace mentions of it after 2004 with the new name, while maintaining the current title until a time when the WP:COMMONNAM gets supplanted.  and , since you have both already weighed in on this, what are your thoughts? Garuda28 (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. When you mention "Israeli Air and Space Force" in other articles, it is less recognizable to the reader than the commonly used name "Israeli Air Force" which is used by almost every RS. What makes it worse is that in some articles, talking about the uniforms worn by the "air and space force" makes it sound like there is also a space force in addition to the air force, introducing unnecessary confusion. (t · c) buidhe 21:55, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Shouldn't at least be a mention of it on this page and a sentence on renaming though? We have Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section#Alternative names that should be able to accommodate it in the introduction (air and space arm also seems sporadically used across the IDF pages). As for the problem of how it is used in text, that should be able to be easily fixed with proper capitalization and punctuation, if we do chose to go that route (no different that French Air and Space Force in that case).Garuda28 (talk) 22:04, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't oppose adding a sentence on renaming to the body, but the official name is already is in the first sentence of the article: "The Israeli Air Force (IAF; , Zroa HaAvir VeHahalal, "Air and Space Arm"..." (t · c) buidhe 22:25, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

text: How does this sound for a reworded intro "The Israeli Air Force (IAF; ), officially known as the Israeli Air and Space Force (IASF; ) since 2004, is the air and space arm of the Israeli Defense Forces? What I'm trying to do with this is pull out the Air and Space Force to make it clear that it is the official name and state clearly when it became the official name. Garuda28 (talk) 22:39, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No, 1) I don't believe that's the most accurate translation of the Hebrew words and 2) the "Israeli Air and Space Force" name is extremely marginal in English-language sources, so it should not be given undue weight. (t · c) buidhe 22:52, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  How does using air and space arm (as put out here https://www.iaf.org.il/9289-52470-en/IAF.aspx) sound? I believe this is the official air (and space?) force site?Garuda28 (talk) 22:59, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the current version is fine and the change would not be an improvement, as it would overemphasize a term that is only used in a tiny minority of independent sources, for instance see Google Scholar results. (t · c) buidhe 23:01, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I would argue that, even if used in a minority of sources, it would make sense to highlight the official name, especially since it highlights the space operations aspect of the service for readers (more broadly, that seems to have been the reason for the name change). Let me put a post at WPMILHIST and see if we can get some more users feedback on this. Garuda28 (talk) 23:19, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Air 'and Space since 2004' needs to be mentioned somewhere in the lead. Seems that we should leave 'Arm' and just add a referenced note that the title changed in 2004. Buckshot06 (talk) 11:19, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title 

message: Error in the "Current inventory" section.
Israel has 75* F-35I "Adir" on order not just 50. 
The last 25 of the 75 planned was ordered alongside the new KC-46A. 
Please correct. 
Source:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-air-force-to-buy-refueling-aircraft-25-more-f-35-fighter-jets-1.9544478 46.140.129.254 (talk) 07:11, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Already done The Current Inventory section states that Israel has "50 ordered and 75 planned in total" in regards to the F-35I. ––FORMALDUDE(talk) 03:22, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 July 2021 

message: 4 pieces have been ordered and 4 additional are planned of Boeing KC-46 Pegasus  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1810:3E21:A500:218D:85A8:C214:FC09 (talk) 15:56, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: - FOX 52 talk! 16:07, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wikipedia page for the KC-46 states that the IAF is receiving KC-46 aircraft (https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-sign-off-on-pricey-purchase-of-f-35s-refuelers-and-bombs/). The KC-767 page that this IAF page currently links to makes no mention of any Israeli use of the KC-767 vice the KC-46. 2600:8805:1925:5400:44F9:9528:C5F0:19C4 (talk) 04:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Add Boeing KC46 Pegasus Tanker aircraft

message: On July 25, 2006 an Israeli warplane bombed a United Nations observation post in southern Lebanon, killing all of the UN observers. The four unarmed UNTSO personnel killed were from Finland, China, Austria and Canada. The observation post was clearly marked with the UN flag and its location was known to the Israelis; the attack appears to have been intentional, although the Israelis later claimed that it was due to faulty information. Fos some reason, this event is not mentioned in the section on the war in Lebanon in 2006. See International incidents during the 2006 Lebanon War Death Bredon (talk) 14:00, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attack on UN observers in 2006 

message: According to this link that you have published the total amount F15 in Israeli Air Force is 84
https://www.flightglobal.com/download?ac=83735
41 F15A/C
18 F15B/D
25 F15E
Total of 84 F15 in its different types.
Not 84 F15A/C
Also an additional 25F15IX are being Ordered in a primary process
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/01/israel-formally-requests-25-f-15-ex-from-the-us-sources/?amp=1 2A06:C701:4931:8D00:C90E:313D:1FC2:FA57 (talk) 07:43, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The number Of F15 is wrong 

message: under "Combat aircraft"
change the F-15  Variant from "F-15 A/C" to F-15A/B/C/D 
change the F-16  Variant from "F-16C/I" to F-16C/D/I
and remove both F-15 and F-16 from the "Trainer aircraft" as they are used for Combat more then as a trainer. WarDog669 (talk) 12:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me!  02:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 January 2024