Talk:Thanjavur Nayak kingdom

message: Somebody is persisting in changing the Balija affiliation of the Tanjore Nayaks to Kamma affiliation. He has gone ahead and cited references which state that they were Balijas.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.16.135.194 (talk) 10:11, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Hi,
The Census of India, 1901: Madras XV, Pt.1, 144 mentions that the Nayaks of Tanjore belonged to the Balija Naidu caste. How authentic are Census reports wrt caste claims? Please discuss. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 19:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Add the citation as part of the references.Kumarrao (talk) 12:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Caste claims from Census reports

message: Hi,
I had added in this part:
"According to the Literary cultures in history by Sheldon I Pollock and Questioning Ramayanas by Paula Richman, both writers who based their research on existing government gazettes and records, Raghunatha Nayaka belonged to the balija caste". 
However, I notice that you have been repeatedly deleting any reference to the caste of the Tanjore nayaks. 
Both the books, Literary cultures in history by Sheldon I Pollock and Questioning Ramayanas by Paula Richman were written after they had extensively looked into various government gazettes and records. Please look into their reference sources. I have undone your deletion. 
If you wish to mention another writer claiming the caste of Raghunatha nayaka as a different one, you can certainly put it down alongside the sentence above to say that according to so-and-so author Raghunatha nayaka belongs to Kamma or Velama caste. 
However, please note that in Tamilnadu regions, there are no inscriptions or manuscripts or old written works found mentioning the word 'kamma' or 'velama' anywhere. Even the word 'balija' was used in inscriptions only from the 15th century onwards. Before the 15th century, all of them had the titles of cetti / chetti only; and their caste was not mentioned. It is not known why Raghunatha nayaka referred to himself as a balija since telugu people in the tamilnadu regions in the past merely went by the word telaga which is slang for telugu, and kammas also used to be called kamma kapulu there. Only since the 18th century onwards, british writers noted and thereby created the awareness of specific differences in caste such as kamma, kapu and balija in the tamilnadu regions. And there was no "long and bitter rivalry" b/w the Madhurai Nayaks and Thanjavur Nayaks. They were very well connected by matrimonial alliances with one another and also with the Gingee nayaks, Venkatagiri nayaks and few others. But apparently it seems they were greedy for power and fiefdom control. I shall provide references for all these points from Tamil and Telugu manuscripts / untranslated works soon. 
Please note that the work of Sheldon Pollock and Paula Richman specifically mentioning Raghunatha Nayaka as a balija remains since both writers mentioned it based on verifiable and credible sources. Infact quite a few writers, both indian and western, are censuring about it, since balijas come under shudras and were noted as a left-handed caste involved in manufacturing; and had moved into the brahmin-held bastion of producing literary works at this time.
Thanks.
--Illusion 03:40, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Message for Kumarrao

message: Thanjavur Nayaks were not Balija. There is no evidence in any of three references cited. Sevappa Nayudu who served in Vijayanagar court is considered a Padmanayaka Velama, although solid proof is not available. The Madhura Nayaks were Balija merchants who had long and bitter rivalry with Thanjavur Nayaks.Kumarrao 12:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No Evidence

message: Thanjavur Naiks are Balija Naidus like Madurai  and Vijayanagar kings. Please refer to Edgar Thurston's  "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" and Kante Narayana Desai's "Balijakula Charithra".
==Be Specific==
It is very unfortunate that Wiki is being used to put forward unsubstantiated theories. One should log in with propoer User name and then should cite proper references e.g., which volume of Thurston's book and the page number. I could not find such a reference. "History" books writtten to prop up caste-based claims are not reliable. An important point was forgotten while claiming Thanjavur Nayaks belonged to Balija group. There was sworn rivalry between Madurai and Thanjavur nayaks right from the inception of these kingdoms. In fact, this rivalry went upto the extent of inviting muslim kings to destroy the fellow Hindu kingdoms. Chokkanatha Nayak destroyed Thanjavur on the "flimsy" marital ground. The affiliation of Thanjavur nayaks was not mentioned in any historical records. I also appeal to downplay the caste affiliation in Wiki articles. Subtle mention in the running matter does no harm. Kumarrao 12:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: There is evidence

message: It is very unfortunate that Wiki is being used to put forward unsubstantiated theories. One should log in with propoer User name and then should cite proper references e.g., which volume of Thurston's book and the page number. I could not find such a reference. "History" books writtten to prop up caste-based claims are not reliable. An important point was forgotten while claiming Thanjavur Nayaks belonged to Balija group. There was sworn rivalry between Madurai and Thanjavur nayaks right from the inception of these kingdoms. In fact, this rivalry went upto the extent of inviting muslim kings to destroy the fellow Hindu kingdoms. Chokkanatha Nayak destroyed Thanjavur on the "flimsy" marital ground. The affiliation of Thanjavur nayaks was not mentioned in any historical records. I also appeal to downplay the caste affiliation in Wiki articles. Subtle mention in the running matter does no harm. Kumarrao 12:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Be Specific

message: It is rather ludicrous to  imply that  authors like Thurston and the like   wrote "History" books to promote caste- based  claims.Thurston's book is not a history book ,it is an authority on  Castes and Tribes of Southern India and is greatly respected by all except a few who may  feel that Thurston's book became  a big obstacle for spreading their half truths.
==Evidence==
I shall be happy to accept the theory of the anonymous Editor that Thanjavur Nayaks were Balija if sufficient evidence is provided. Desai's book is not reliable, which was what I meant earlier. I greatly respect Thurston's work. He said nowhere Thanjavur nayaks were Balija. If he said so, please mention the volume and page numbers. I shall withdraw my previous remarks in the Talk page. The surnames mentioned (both Madurai and Thanjavur nayaks) exist in many social groups of Telugu population. Please keep the articles academic.Kumarrao 18:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ludicrous

message: I shall be happy to accept the theory of the anonymous Editor that Thanjavur Nayaks were Balija if sufficient evidence is provided. Desai's book is not reliable, which was what I meant earlier. I greatly respect Thurston's work. He said nowhere Thanjavur nayaks were Balija. If he said so, please mention the volume and page numbers. I shall withdraw my previous remarks in the Talk page. The surnames mentioned (both Madurai and Thanjavur nayaks) exist in many social groups of Telugu population. Please keep the articles academic.Kumarrao 18:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence

message: Before asking somebody to  mention the volume and page numbers  of Thurston book may I ask  the gentleman to show the volume numbers  and the page numbers of books  that he read to  prove that Thanjavur Nayaks were Padmanayaka Velamas and not Balija Naidus.  By saying that the sur names of Madurai and Thanjavur  nayaks exist in many social groups,it appears that he is making a futile effort to show  that the Nayaks were not Balija Naidus and belonged to some other caste.It is a well known fact that sur names coincide in different castes of Telugu people and on that flimsy ground one can not  attempt to prove that Nayaks  belonged to some other caste  and not to  Balija Naidu caste.  
Whether it is going to help or not I am tempted to give a small piece of information here.Madura King Vijayaranga Chokka Natha naidu  once held a great  meeting in Sreerangam to which he invited all  royal  family members  of his caste,Balija. The family names of the royal members were:
                                                                                                    
Garikepati(Madurai Nayaks'family name), Alluri(Thanjavur Nayaks'family name), Chinthalapuri (Kandy or Khandi nayaks'family  name), Chenchi (Gengi Nayaks' family name), Thupakula (family name of Anantha bhoopaludu,Dalavai of Madurai king Vijayaranga Chokkanatha Naidu and writer of Vishnu puranam,Bhagavatham,Ramayanam,Bhagavadgeetha and  Garalapuri Mahathmyam ) ,Thota, Pagadala, Degala, Neelakantham, Rayalakulam, Savaram,Puram, Setty, Katthi, Vazrala, Dalavai, Ande, Kunche, Javvaji, Kandhala, Gopisetti, Medisetti, Vanga, Enugula, Koppula, Kotte, Kanakala, Chandu, Yarramsetti, Yerra, Chinnamsetti, Marisetti, Pasupuleti, Kamatham, Manku, Dhanasetti, Sreepathi etc. Of course these family names can be seen in other castes also.
==Hyperenthusiasm==
The enthusiastic attitude of 65.24.145.57 is understandable but his innuendos against others are not in good taste. We are dealing with history. History, especially that of India and Indians, is hazy because of our casual attitude to account-maintenance, unlike European and Islamic traditions. 65.24.145.57 should note that I said Thanjavur nayaks are considered 'Velama'. I never mentioned it emphatically. On the contrary, 65.24.145.57 asserts Balija connection without proper evidence. I leave the matter to 65.24.145.57's discretion. I am wondering why 65.24.145.57 likes to remain an anonymous Phantom.Kumarrao 10:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Family names of Nayaks and relatives 

message: The enthusiastic attitude of 65.24.145.57 is understandable but his innuendos against others are not in good taste. We are dealing with history. History, especially that of India and Indians, is hazy because of our casual attitude to account-maintenance, unlike European and Islamic traditions. 65.24.145.57 should note that I said Thanjavur nayaks are considered 'Velama'. I never mentioned it emphatically. On the contrary, 65.24.145.57 asserts Balija connection without proper evidence. I leave the matter to 65.24.145.57's discretion. I am wondering why 65.24.145.57 likes to remain an anonymous Phantom.Kumarrao 10:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hyperenthusiasm

message: How come  rehashing the same question and rendering some information  became innuendos and are not in good taste? Then is it in good taste to call someone "anonymous phantom"and "hyperenthusiastic" ?
==Caste==
The caste affiliation is not clear. The citations quoted do not mention the caste affiliation of Thanjavur Nayaks. Page numbers may be mentioned if I am wrong. Kumarrao 14:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:   Not in good taste

message: The caste affiliation is not clear. The citations quoted do not mention the caste affiliation of Thanjavur Nayaks. Page numbers may be mentioned if I am wrong. Kumarrao 14:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Caste

message: It  was  clearly mentioned  in Edgar Thurston's  "Castes and Tribes of Southern India "and  in R.V.Russell's  "The Tribes and Castes of Central Provinces of India" that Vijaya Nagar,Madurai and Thanjavur Kings belonged to Balija caste.The references can be seen in Edgar Thurston's volume 1 and R.V.Russell's volume 2. Edgar Thurston was famous museologist and ethnographer based in Madras. R.V.Russell was  superintendent of Ethnography ,Central Provinces.I  hope the information given by these authorities would clear anyone's doubt as to the  Balija Naidu caste affiliation with Vijaya Nagar,Madurai and Thanjavur dynasties.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.136.234 (talk) 17:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:   Very clear Balija caste affiliation with Vijaya Nagar,Madurai and Thanjavur kings

message: I am just wondering! I found that  a duo is in the perennial  habit of selectively removing one particular  caste name   on the grounds of controversy (inspite of the evidence )and selectively  adding  one particular caste name linking  with the Nayaks  inspite of controversy.Case in point : Thanjavur Nayaks versus Musunuri Nayaks.
If this  trend continues the very neutrality of the Wikipedia articles  would be in jeopardy.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.136.234 (talk) 07:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is it by choice one topic  becomes controversial and the other becomes noncontroversial?

message: It needs to be authenticated by proper citations with page numbers etc., See the article Madurai Nayaks and its Talk page for the citations about their caste affinity and who first provided these evidences. History does not change with caste biases.Kumarrao (talk) 07:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Caste

message: Quoting caste names of dynasties is not tantamount to caste bias.It is a historical fact. Madurai and Thanjavur Nayaks  were Balija Naidus(Kapus/Telaga /Ontaris)and evidence for this abounds. Those who  agonize at the very thought of these dynasties belonging  to Balija Naidu caste and those who say  history does not change with caste bias should realize that the   mentioning  of the caste name is not akin to caste bias and it  amounts to telling the very truth. Mentioning of caste name  is mandatory in this particular case especially in a world where truths are being highjacked by half truths  and distortions  executed by some with  different techniques.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.81.199.139 (talk) 23:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CASTE BIAS?  

message: Dear 75.81.199.139,
You must first create an User Page with a proper Username to engage in Wiki contributions. Your inputs definitely betray caste bias. I have been emphasizing that the kind of evidence available for Balija affinity of Madurai Nayaks is not available for Thanjavur Nayaks. The matter is controversial. If available, please cite the books/inscriptions etc with proper reference to page numbers. Wiki will be enriched by truthful edits.Kumarrao (talk) 07:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: It has  become  a norm  to say simply the subject in question is  "controversial"  instead of telling the reasons why and how  it is controversial. Readers  will be greatly indebted if the  truthful points are furnished as to why  Thanjavur kings are not Balija Naidus.Wiki will be enriched if references with page numbers are provided as suggested.It is guaranteed that information as to why Thanjavur kings are Balija Naidus would be following  later.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.81.199.139 (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CONTROVERSIAL ?

message: Dear  75.81.199.139,
Your silence to the suggestion that you should take an Username is mystifying and is against Wiki guidelines. Your argument that one should provide evidence for something non-existent is contrary to the logic. You say that Thanjavur Nayaks are Balijas. Please provide evidence. The Users will be glad to accept. Wiki operates on evidence in an affirmative sense not on contradictions. If you persist on this the matter you will be taken to the Administrators.Kumarrao (talk) 10:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Logic?

message: I referred to the citation which says, "....supposed to have been the Kings of Madura, Thanjavur and Vijayanagar". There is some evidence for the first but not for the other two. In fact, there are innumerable evidences to show that the Vijayanagar kings were of Yadava origin.Kumarrao (talk) 08:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit

message: I have added more sources where social scientists,historians,biographers and intellectuals have stated that Tanjore nayaks are of Balija/Kapu origin.In Balijakula Charitra too the author has mentioned about the matrimonial alliances between  Tanjore Nayaks and other Balija Nayaks dynasties.The large population of Balija Naidus in Tanjore and their claiming Kshatriya status because of their elevated status also adds to the fact.So I have modified the statement as according to the historians.
John Rambo 01:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bibilography added 

message: I cited above the exact sentence used by Russell which says "supposed to be". He also mentioned: "Bangle, Pearl and ornament  sellers" which seems to be nearer to the truth, as we all know the social habits of different people in AP. Bangle sellers cannot be Kshatriyas by any stretch of imagination. Vijaya Kumari and Bhasker also made a sweeping proof-less statement that Kings of Madhura, Thanjavur and Vijayanagar were Balijas. 
As history tells us, matrimonial alliances of ruling classes are not any indication of caste affinity. In fact, if you critically read the history of Madhura and Tanjavur nayaks, you will find that they were bitter enemies throughout which caused rifts among Hindu unity and helped Muslims consolidate their power in pre-British South India. Please give specific evidences as we can find for Madura Nayaks. I regret to bother you. Your edit is deleted.Kumarrao (talk) 07:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarificaton

message: Dear Kumarrao,
I have stated what many historians  felt about which social group of Tanjaur Nayaks may have belonged...Its not only Russell but many others scholars too which I have mentioned ...So pls go through the other references I mentioned in the bibilography.All of them felt that Tanjaur Nayaks MAY be of Balija Nayak origin....All the historians and social scientists cannot be wrong ???....If they have stated some thing then there should some amount of research or study into it......Here in wikipedia we are not doing research where u mention thing only when you have all proofs...If that is the case then we would not be able to fill anything in these articles ... Here people who read this should  known point of views of various scholars about a particular subject and we provide the references to it to support the statement ....I just said about what these scholar felt about Tanjaur Nayaks along with references....Its upto the users to decide or find out the real proofs...and if they find one which says that Tanjaur Nayaks are of so and so caste or group then they can mention the same in this article. 
So please refrain from making edits to it unncessarily.
*Regarding your comments that how "bangle sellers can be rulers" its in such a poor taste and insulting.....
FYI - Yadavs who are considered to be backward in South and North India have many Kingdoms in the ancient India and they claim kshatria status...So do u mean to say that now "how can a cattle rearer be a king" or claim kshatria status ???...Your statement is so demeaning,insulting and sarcastic..Please avoid such degrading and demeaning statemnets in future....
John Rambo 04:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverted edits by Kumarrao and Clarification for the same

message: I absolutely did not insult anyone. Yes, as you said Yadavas ruled great parts of the country throughout history. Same thing holds good for the betel bearer who established great Madhura Nayak kingdom. That will not make him Kshatriya nor a community associated with trade and business will become Kshtriya. I hope you know the ancient Hindu varna system. If you insist reverting my edits, let it be so. I do not want continue arguing with you. I only wanted to bring credibility to any statements one makes. Suppositions do not validate the hypotheses.Kumarrao (talk) 18:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: No insult

message: In Harmony of Religions: Vedānta Siddhānta Samarasam of Tāyumānavar By Thomas Manninezhath, the author describes how the Tamil country was divided into 3 Nayakships viz., Madurai, Tanjore and Gingi under the Vijayanagar emperor Krishna Deva Raya (1509-29).
Snippet view:. Youonlylivetwice (talk) 16:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Some more references

message: The Bangle sellers can not become Kshatriyas by any stretch of imagination as per Kumarrao would speak  about the  height of arrogance and the poor taste.In the olden days Sudra Kings of Thanjavur,Madurai and others  belonging to Balija caste(Kapu/Telaga) were quite proud of their Sudra status and their enormous contribution to the art ,sculpture and  literature(Telugu).By virtue of ruling the people they might have been called Kshatriyas.John Rambo is absolutely correct in saying that Yadavs attained Kshatriya status by becoming the rulers.
No wonder , in the same token Bangle sellers  could  become the kings and attain  Kshatriya status.   I regret to inform you,Kumarrao  that you coveniently avoided the important piece of information on Desa or Kota Balijas and  laid  emphasis  on Gajula Balijas to suit your stale argument.According to R.V.Russell's "The Tribes And Castes Of Central Provinces of India" Balijas have two main divisions ,Desa (or Kota) and Peta,   the Desas(Kotas) being those who claim descendents from the old Balija kings while the Petas  are the trading Balijas and are further divided into groups like Gajula or Bangle sellers and the Perikis,the salt sellers.
According to Paula Richman in "Questioning Ramayana:A South Asian Tradition"Raghunatha Nayaka who ruled Thanjavur during the early 17th century was Balija. According to the same writer Varada Raju ,another Balija  claimed descent from Karikala Chola.This proves again that Thanjavur kings and Telugu Cholas were Balija Naidus.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.97.66.114 (talk) 01:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All the books cited in favour of Balija affinity made only presumptions not based on facts.Kumarrao (talk) 13:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Anonymous users 71.97.66.114 and 75.81.203.17, I would like to repeat that the same authors (as you mentioned above) wrote that certain social groups CLAIM descent from Thanjavur Nayaks. They did not emphatically say so nor provided evidence. I earlier provided solid evidence for Balija affinity of Madhura Nayaks, although I was aware of an article by well-known writer/historian Tirumala Ramachandra in the magazine 'Bharati' that Madhura Nayaks were Kammas. Carry on. Cheers.Kumarrao (talk) 05:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear 76.177.234.74, You must follow Wikipedia guidelines. Take an Username. Engage in meaningful discussion with proper evidences to support your views. I am not going to edit the article for some more tme so that you can provide tangible proof.Kumarrao (talk) 05:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: BALIJA ORIGIN

message: I request wiki to BAN the naming of castes until proper references or proof from inscriptions are available.
Apparently there will always be people who will not accept works of selected historians coz they are not what they expect to see.
Most works in Saraswati Mahal library are not yet translated. And probably they will never be in the next 50 years or so.
Kumar Rao, if you are really interested, please visit Saraswati Mahal library, talk to the translators / librarians there and refer to books yourself instead of arguing on wiki. I say this, because you seem to insist everywhere that the Madurai and Tanjore Nayaks were enemies. You may wish to look up the number of matrimonial alliances b/w them (which are available in english also but as a handful currently). Ofcourse they also fought against one another, as struggle for dominance and largess. Who was ever satisfied with what they had. And if kings, of all people, were satisfied with what they had, there wud never be something like an Ashwamedha Yagna even in those times.
I find it an utter shame at the level of casteism shown here to prove the caste of people long dead and gone. As humans, those people were far from perfect, their so-called position as 'rulers' notwithstanding. Everyone just wants them to belong to their caste apparently because they were so-called 'kings' even if some were dabba kings. 
[[An aside, Successful people may look at caste as a subject on interest but unsuccessful people appear to be the ones really interested in caste differences. If Thirumala Nayaka or Raghunatha Nayaka were so bothered about caste, they wud have made sure it appeared on every bloody inscription or writing they left. Obviously, they didn't care because they were successful people. What does that make people arguing here. 
Its so funny that some people even claim they have "aryan genes" and that too "more aryan genes". Ofcourse, they will stick to one-sided history as well. And its apparent such people will over-ride stuff from other historical works or from genetic studies, to stick to what they want to see. Puritanical attitude in the 21st Century really sucks guys. Probably your ancestors were not as puritanical in the 14th century as some folk on wiki are trying to be.
Also, it appears to me that those arguing about the caste of the Nayaks here are people from Andhra. They can never understand the sensibilities of Tamil-Nadu based telugu speaking folk. Even wedding customs of the same caste grouping but of diff states, Andhra and Tamil Nadu, can vary. Anyways, wiki is not a place for such discussion (or POVs as it might be called) and neither am I interested in any]].
I just wish that wiki truly does take a step to BANNING the names of castes of kings and kingdoms unless they are from recorded works of history. Wiki also needs to make sure that works of "other historians" also get reported. "Other historians" mean historians of repute that also reported and wrote books on the same given topic but recorded stuff that "casteists" do not want to see.
Thanks.
MigratoryRefRequest (talk) 14:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Casteism Sucks

message: Unfortunately some people just want to  argue on wiki  and for them to  visit  libraries and talk  to librarians might not change their  preconceived thoughts.Agenda driven stone walling  appears to be the norm.Matrimonial alliances  between Madurai and Thanjavur  Balija kings were very well known according to so many reputed sources.
Mentioning the name Balija as the caste name of Madurai and Thanjavur dynasties is not equivalent to casteism.It is the history that is documented by so many reputed writers.When  Kshatriya,Reddi ,Yadava kings and the like are acceptable why not 
Balija kings of Madurai and Thanjavur? 
   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.193.226 (talk) 22:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't post in Tamil script here. It is not appropriate. This is the English language wikipedia. If you want to post in Tamil, do so on the Tamil wikipedia.1812ahill (talk) 03:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: stone walling

message: Mentioned the banning since what we are seeing as present-day castes are indeed present-day ones. Its upto wiki. Thanks.
Btw, Kumarrao seems to look upon bangle makers with a disparaging attitude. In Sangam times, brahmins made bangles and its been recorded in the Akananooru. Bangle makers of later times manufactured and exported glass for various purposes. Gajulu was the most common product sold. So it became their caste tag. Apparenty, they represented an industrialized unit of sorts of their times. Their wealth status was better than the yadavas (gwalas or gollas), who went around streets selling milk and curds. Those glass manufacturers hired these yadavs for street hawking bangles. That's how a section of yadavs got merged into the balijas. A streethawker laden with bangles usually with a namam was considered an 'auspicious' sight. I cannot mention specific books and references. Those that are interested can visit the Saraswati Mahal library for actual and detailed info since they can also get help on Sangam period works there. Was only trying to say caste units were fluid. And trying to prove or establish caste by way of arguing like this with disparaging comments might sure amount to some amount of casteism. No offence meant. Thanks MigratoryRefRequest (talk) 10:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't post in Tamil script here. It is not appropriate. This is the English language wikipedia. If you want to post in Tamil, do so on the Tamil wikipedia.1812ahill (talk) 03:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Casteism

message: Now that is news to me! The 'wars with Portugal' section claims that Italian refugees settled in this area/kingdom of India on condition that they became Hindu, after fleeing the Ottoman Siege of Malta in 1565!?! Such a bizarre statement needs to be referenced - why would they go half way around the world to settle in India? (Incidentally the Knights of St John won that siege leading one to wonder why these alleged Italians (would they not be Maltese?) would need to flee anywhere!) Portuguese were present in India around this time - in Goa, and some of them did indeed convert to Hinduism in the very early days c.1500, after being deserted for several years and 'going native' - however the torture and mutilations meted out to them for their apostacy would have thoroughly discouraged any others from following their lead.
I am not disputing the statement per se, I just find it highly unlightly, and it needs referencing if indeed true.1812ahill (talk) 03:35, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian refugees from the siege of Malta??? 

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thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified