Talk:Die Entführung aus dem Serail

message: According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) this is where the article must be, and not at Die Entführung aus dem Serail. -- Paddu 06:19, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Naming conventions on classical music - this should not be the case. I, an English speaker, more often hear the German form of the name anyway. I am moving it to it's correct place. --Oldak Quill 15:23, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas) is should be in German! Paul B 14:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to that convention, it should be in German unless commonly known by its English title. I think most English-speakers, if they have heard of the opera at all, first heard of it by the English title as I did, not the German, and they still hear of it more often in English unless perhaps they move in opera circles. Indeed, the current production at the Lyric Opera of Chicago refers to it by the English title. Furthermore, the Google statistics quoted later on this page are wrong: A Google search of English pages shows that the English title outnumbers the German title by something like 92,000 to 51,000. Because of Wikipedia differences on this point, The Marriage of Figaro appears under its English form, even though Le nozze di Figaro is no more obscure to English-speakers than Die Entführung aus dem Serail. Wbkelley (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming Conventions

message: The text of the article correctly notes that the action in a singspiel mostly happens in the dialogue sections between the set pieces. Unfortunately the libretto link contains only the set pieces and none of the dialogue, so not much help for someone wanting to follow the action.... I wonder if we can find a better libretto on the web somewhere? 206.174.64.52 07:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Michael Bednarek 02:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libretto link 

message: :The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was PAGE NOT MOVED -- as there was  no consensus for the move per discussion below. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
#Support as nom. Heimstern Läufer 03:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Add any additional comments:
*"Barely qualifies as an English title"? How so? Heimstern Läufer 00:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
#Support as nom. Heimstern Läufer 03:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: #Support as nom. Heimstern Läufer 03:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in support of the move

message: #1 Oppose The use of "Abduction" is much less common than the use of "The Marriage of Figaro" or "The Magic Flute", and I suspect that it is used more in the USA than in Britain, since I've only rarely heard it over here in England.  I and most people that I know refer to it as "Entführung". --GuillaumeTell 12:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in opposition to the move

message: :Add any additional comments:
*"Barely qualifies as an English title"? How so? Heimstern Läufer 00:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: This is a minor matter and the sky won't fall in if nothing is done about it — still:
There are three spelling variants of Catarina Cavalieri's name in this article:
#Catarina Cavalieri (correct in my opinion)
#Cavallieri (double L)
#Katherina Cavalieri (semi-German variant)
In Der Schauspieldirektor it's Caterina Cavalieri, in Don Giovanni it's Cavalieri without first name. The article de:Catarina Cavalieri uses Catarina Cavalieri which I believe is the most frequently used one; Grove concurs. The web page http://mugi.hfmt-hamburg.de/grundseite/grundseite.php?id=cava1755 lists any number of variants, but predominantly also Catarina Cavalieri. Should it be consistent in this article (and in Der Schauspieldirektor)? If so, what should it be? I suggest to use Catarina Cavalieri consistently. Michael Bednarek 11:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello MB, I agree with your suggestion; Grove is usually a good model to follow.  Cheers, Opus33 15:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree also. I found one remaining instance of Caterina (in the Roles section of this article) and corrected it to Catarina--but of course the linked English-language Wikipedia article still spells it Caterina, and I can't change that article's title. Wbkelley (talk) 03:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: All these musings are completely moot, because Cavalieri always signed her name "Catharina Cavalieri".--62.47.135.177 (talk) 09:19, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of Catarina Cavalieri 

message: In the Roles list, the character is Blonde, but in the Synopsis she is Blondchen. The current production at the Lyric Opera of Chicago names the role Blonde. In combination with Serail or Seraglio, Blonde outnumbers Blondchen 10-1 on English-language Google, and 40-1 on German-language Google. Why the diminutive form Blondchen? Should it be Blonde? Wbkelley (talk) 03:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I just changed it to Blonde.  In the libretto, the other characters most often call her "Blondchen" (the German diminutive form), but the dramatis personae and stage directions call her "Blonde".  It seems reasonable to use "Blonde" here. Opus33 (talk) 01:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blonde/Blondchen? 

message: Hey - I saw this opera last night and my thought was that it's an homage to enlightened despotism, with Selim Pasha in the role of enlightened despot.  Which seems particularly plausible because it was commissioned by Joseph II, Holy Roman Emperor, one of the quintessential "enlightened despots".  I would like to add this to the article but don't actually have any sources.  Does anyone know of any published source that makes this connection?  (It's so obvious I'm sure I'm not the first one to have thought of it.)  Adam_sk (talk) 05:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems plausible but I can't think of any reference sources that would help.  Opus33 (talk) 15:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I added in a ref a while back (Osterhammel. Die Entzauberung Asiens: Europa und die asiatischen Reiche im 18. Jahrhundert) that raises this point. It is a common enough interpretative theme. Eusebeus (talk) 19:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Enlightened Despotism

message: I have expanded the synopsis a little to include the action in this quartet--first they reunite, then the men question the women's fidelity, then they forgive.  It's worth mentioning explicitly because this is the only place where Mozart reminds the audience that there is no such thing as love without anxiety, even in a puff-piece like this one.  
Also identified Belmonte's father and explained Pasha's reason for letting everyone go.
SingingZombie (talk) 03:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ach, Belmonte, ach mein liebe!"?? There's is no quartet with such a title.--62.47.135.177 (talk) 09:22, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The quartet "Ach, Belmonte, ach mein liebe!"

message: I noticed that the synopsis contains the first lines of several set pieces in English.  Especially since several of them,such as "Martern aller arten" are better known by the original, proper German text, would it not be better to have these in German instead of English?--134.69.39.113 (talk) 22:00, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The synopsis is derived from the dreaded Opera Goer's Complete Guide of 1921 by Leo Melitz (listed in the References section at the bottom) and is written in the stilted English of that period.  You could move the German first lines up from the "noted arias" section to the appropriate places in the synopsis and provide better English translations of the words (and a better synopsis, if you have the time). ("Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit"). --GuillaumeTell 23:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Set Piece title language 

message: Dauer's first name was just Ernst and it's Dominik Jauz, not "Jautz".--Suessmayr (talk) 18:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Care to provide sources for that? The article currently follows Grove, Opera Stanford, and others. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of names 

message: Although it has been repeatedly discussed: the translation of "gewaltig viele Noten" with "too many notes" is simply wrong and distorting. "Too many notes" would be "Zu viele Noten". Maybe the "too many notes" gives a nicer anecdote but it is simply not true. Immensely many notes or enormously many notes would be more appropriate and this statement has a different undertone than the critical "too many notes". --Furfur (talk) 16:58, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As a native speaker I too have to admit it's a little tricky to translate well, although I am no expert on the words subtleties in those days. I would translate the whole statement to: Too nice for our ears, and mighty many notes, my dear Mozart! as this reflects the apparent attitude (and position) of the Emperor while also being rather literal. For the most part it is mock-criticism, but this does not mean it was no criticism at all. 87.164.74.98 (talk) 23:51, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: The "too many notes" story

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The "Instrumentation" chapter needed some corrections, so I made two changes that I explain in more detail below.
1.) The article originally stated that Mozart uses a "bass drum" in this opera, linking the term to an article that discusses the modern bass drum.
However, Mozart calls for a so-called "tamburo grande" or "tamburo turco"; according to the New Mozart Edition (hereafter abbreviated NME), this is a roller-shaped drum. The right hand beats it with a (not damped) mallet, the left hand beats it with a rod. This instrument has nothing to do with the modern bass drum, therefore the simple indication "bass drum" is completely wrong and misleading.
In the book Le percussioni by Guido Facchin such a tamburo turco is illustrated and explained on page 442. Here is a precise reference to it, which can also be cited in the "Sources" if necessary, so that the interested reader can get a picture of it:
:Facchin, Guido (2000). Le percussioni. EDT. ISBN 88-7063-251-2 
Perhaps this instrument could be explained in the notes with reference to the NME and to the book mentioned?
2.) I have replaced the term "triangle" by "triangles". It should be mentioned (perhaps in the "References") that according to the NME there is no doubt that Mozart wanted the triangle part to be played by more than one instrument. Mozart uses the German word "triangel", which can mean both singular and plural, and the unambiguous indication Triangoli.
3.) As far as the "cymbals" are concerned, one could perhaps mention with a reference to the NME that Mozart notated the piatti in different pitches, and consequently apparently wanted to have differently sized (and thus differently sounding) cymbals.
Unfortunately, I am not very technically savvy, otherwise I would enter this sources or these comments myself. --DerFigaro (talk) 14:00, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the instruments 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion