Talk:Naval air station

message: Naval Air stations do not have port facilities.
:I removed the port facilities.  I was stationed on a Naval Air Station as well as an aircraft carrier.  I a  gree that they don't have port facilities for carriers.  Example: NAS Norfolk is right next to NAVSTA Norfolk where the carriers are.  They aren't the same base.  If someone can come up with a source to prove that statement, I agree it should be put back. --JAYMEDINC 22:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: port facilities

message: The format where we are showing the city and linking to the Naval Air Station should be changed in my opinion.  I believe since the air station is autonomous to the city, we should just show the name of the air station and wikilink right to it. --JAYMEDINC 22:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: cities

message: This article has been renamed from Naval Air Station to Naval air station as the result of a move request.
 - Move as per WP:MOSCAPS. Keith D (talk) 21:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, the move was per WP:NAME. WP:MOSCAPS does not cover article titles, but rather the contents of articles. - Neparis (talk) 01:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
Moved from RM - 199.125.109.105 (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: * The more common usage is as a proper noun, not as a description, although that form is also used. 199.125.109.59 (talk) 05:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Excuse me, but it's only a proper noun when it's the name of a specific naval air station, such as :Naval Air Station Lemoore. Otherwise, it's merely a generic term, which by definition is NOT a proper noun. This is just basic English grammar. Cgingold (talk) 13:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: *I agree with Cgingold. This particular use is not a proper noun, and should be written in lower-case per WP:NAME. - Neparis (talk) 22:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: One example is here: "as the world's finest naval air station". The most common usage is "at the Naval Air Station", where it is used as a proper noun with the location being implied. 199.125.109.105 (talk) 23:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: *However, we are not referring to a specific NAS here, we're talking about the term generally. Your example to justify keeping the capitalized name actually hurts your position. Parsecboy (talk) 14:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *I find it strange that you discount the source you've provided to support lower case (a .mil site). Does the Navy not know proper grammatical formatting for it's own installations? Parsecboy (talk) 13:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: All of which are capitalized? I'm not sure I see your point. If you do a google search for "naval air station" you find 195 that are "Naval Air Station", one that is "the busiest naval air station" (note: used as a description), one that is "the first permanent naval air station" (also a description), 2 that are incorrectly not capitalized (names of specific air stations), and only 1 that uses "naval air station" ("at the naval air station command headquarters here"). This article is not a description of a naval air station, it is an article about Naval Air Stations. There is no law that says that NAS has to be capitalized, but it certainly is in almost every case. Note that the first editor to reply stated earlier that they were "stationed on a Naval Air Station as well as an aircraft carrier". Why do you think they capitalized it (back in 2006)? 199.125.109.105 (talk) 02:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *That question answers itself: they thought it was right... (duh) which, I'm afraid, doesn't prove anything. Btw, I'm puzzled about the figure of 195 -- that's awfully low, where did you get that? My google search turned up this: Results 1 - 30 of about 2,310,000 English pages for "naval air station". Cgingold (talk) 11:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 1,370,000 for me. If you click Next forever you will find that Google never gives you more than 1,000 results. In this case I figured the first 200 were representative. Google does not allow case sensitive searches. If you continue you will find some odd spellings, like NAVAL Air Station, Naval air station, and Naval Airstation. There are also an awful lot of all caps hits. Here is another example where it is not capitalized because it is used as a description: "North Island was commissioned a naval air station in 1917. The station, which was originally called the Naval Air Station, San Diego until 1955..." 199.125.109.105 (talk) 17:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'm aware that Google hits are very misleading. But that wasn't the point -- you still didn't explain what the figure 195 was referring to. Cgingold (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Out of the first 200 Google hits, 195 use either all caps or caps (Naval Air Station or NAVAL AIR STATION). 199.125.109.102 (talk) 20:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: This is the first version of this article. Since no one has questioned the capitalization in almost three years, it has to have been correct. 199.125.109.105 (talk) 03:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *lol... Sorry, guy, but I think that flunks Logic 101. (The Earth was long believed to be flat, if I recall correctly.) Cgingold (talk) 11:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a good example. They were correct then and it is still correct to use Naval Air Station when referring to a specific location and not referring to a description. 199.125.109.105 (talk) 17:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I disagree. I think that the article is about an object, an object that takes a proper noun, and is not an article about a description of that object. 199.125.109.105 (talk) 17:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm having trouble making sense of the distinction you're trying to articulate. Isn't every article about an "object" actually a "description of that object"? More importantly, you haven't addressed my central point, which is (to repeat) that we're essentially arguing past each other. Cgingold (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe I could make it more clear if I said an article which discussed only the attributes of a naval air station and did not make any mention of any specific Naval Air Stations should be called "naval air station" while an article which only listed "Naval Air Stations" and described them should be called "Naval Air Station". Does that help you to see the distinction? 199.125.109.102 (talk) 17:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason to set that criteria for capitalization. It's a bit of a logical leap to argue that because we are mentioning specific naval air stations the title should be capitalized. For an example, see Forward operating base, which is obviously in lower case, despite the fact that specific FOBs are mentioned. It's directly analogous to this article. Parsecboy (talk) 14:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

text: No, it's not incorrect, that's just your opinion. Yes, when one is talking specifically about FOB Marez, it's capitalized, because it's a proper noun. However, when one is talking about a forward operating base in general, it's a common noun. Words should not always be capitalized just because they also make an acronym. If that were the case, we would have HAMAS, not Hamas. Parsecboy (talk) 13:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the FOB article you will see that it like this one is not a discussion of the concept of a forward operating base, it is a description of the actual real world Forward Operating Bases, and even more than this article is just a list of FOBs. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: By the way we go by common usage. If common usage was Hamas we would use that, if it was HAMAS we would use that. Or HaMaS. A quick Google search reveals that while HAMAS is occasionally used the overwhelming common usage is Hamas. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 18:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because there isn't much more to say about what a FOB is than what's already in the intro and first section. As for common usage, you have thus far failed to demonstrate it. The only source you've provided is the one from the .navy.mil domain that supports lowercase. Vague assertions that capitalization is the norm don't cut it. Parsecboy (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't provide a source that supports moving the article. I don't support moving it. I gave four examples of how those three words could be used as a description and properly not capitalized. One or all of them may have been from dot-mil. The article is 92.1% (or more) a list of Naval Air Stations. Someone has suggested splitting the US list to a separate article, which would be counterproductive, because you would be left with a 4,000 byte stub. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Any additional comments:
It sure would be nice to have some input on my previous unrelated questions (above). Thanks. Cgingold (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I did, in that section. — Becksguy (talk) 20:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
Moved from RM - 199.125.109.105 (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: * The more common usage is as a proper noun, not as a description, although that form is also used. 199.125.109.59 (talk) 05:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Excuse me, but it's only a proper noun when it's the name of a specific naval air station, such as :Naval Air Station Lemoore. Otherwise, it's merely a generic term, which by definition is NOT a proper noun. This is just basic English grammar. Cgingold (talk) 13:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: *I agree with Cgingold. This particular use is not a proper noun, and should be written in lower-case per WP:NAME. - Neparis (talk) 22:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: One example is here: "as the world's finest naval air station". The most common usage is "at the Naval Air Station", where it is used as a proper noun with the location being implied. 199.125.109.105 (talk) 23:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: *However, we are not referring to a specific NAS here, we're talking about the term generally. Your example to justify keeping the capitalized name actually hurts your position. Parsecboy (talk) 14:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *I find it strange that you discount the source you've provided to support lower case (a .mil site). Does the Navy not know proper grammatical formatting for it's own installations? Parsecboy (talk) 13:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: All of which are capitalized? I'm not sure I see your point. If you do a google search for "naval air station" you find 195 that are "Naval Air Station", one that is "the busiest naval air station" (note: used as a description), one that is "the first permanent naval air station" (also a description), 2 that are incorrectly not capitalized (names of specific air stations), and only 1 that uses "naval air station" ("at the naval air station command headquarters here"). This article is not a description of a naval air station, it is an article about Naval Air Stations. There is no law that says that NAS has to be capitalized, but it certainly is in almost every case. Note that the first editor to reply stated earlier that they were "stationed on a Naval Air Station as well as an aircraft carrier". Why do you think they capitalized it (back in 2006)? 199.125.109.105 (talk) 02:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *That question answers itself: they thought it was right... (duh) which, I'm afraid, doesn't prove anything. Btw, I'm puzzled about the figure of 195 -- that's awfully low, where did you get that? My google search turned up this: Results 1 - 30 of about 2,310,000 English pages for "naval air station". Cgingold (talk) 11:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: 1,370,000 for me. If you click Next forever you will find that Google never gives you more than 1,000 results. In this case I figured the first 200 were representative. Google does not allow case sensitive searches. If you continue you will find some odd spellings, like NAVAL Air Station, Naval air station, and Naval Airstation. There are also an awful lot of all caps hits. Here is another example where it is not capitalized because it is used as a description: "North Island was commissioned a naval air station in 1917. The station, which was originally called the Naval Air Station, San Diego until 1955..." 199.125.109.105 (talk) 17:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'm aware that Google hits are very misleading. But that wasn't the point -- you still didn't explain what the figure 195 was referring to. Cgingold (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Out of the first 200 Google hits, 195 use either all caps or caps (Naval Air Station or NAVAL AIR STATION). 199.125.109.102 (talk) 20:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: This is the first version of this article. Since no one has questioned the capitalization in almost three years, it has to have been correct. 199.125.109.105 (talk) 03:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *lol... Sorry, guy, but I think that flunks Logic 101. (The Earth was long believed to be flat, if I recall correctly.) Cgingold (talk) 11:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a good example. They were correct then and it is still correct to use Naval Air Station when referring to a specific location and not referring to a description. 199.125.109.105 (talk) 17:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I disagree. I think that the article is about an object, an object that takes a proper noun, and is not an article about a description of that object. 199.125.109.105 (talk) 17:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm having trouble making sense of the distinction you're trying to articulate. Isn't every article about an "object" actually a "description of that object"? More importantly, you haven't addressed my central point, which is (to repeat) that we're essentially arguing past each other. Cgingold (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe I could make it more clear if I said an article which discussed only the attributes of a naval air station and did not make any mention of any specific Naval Air Stations should be called "naval air station" while an article which only listed "Naval Air Stations" and described them should be called "Naval Air Station". Does that help you to see the distinction? 199.125.109.102 (talk) 17:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason to set that criteria for capitalization. It's a bit of a logical leap to argue that because we are mentioning specific naval air stations the title should be capitalized. For an example, see Forward operating base, which is obviously in lower case, despite the fact that specific FOBs are mentioned. It's directly analogous to this article. Parsecboy (talk) 14:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

text: No, it's not incorrect, that's just your opinion. Yes, when one is talking specifically about FOB Marez, it's capitalized, because it's a proper noun. However, when one is talking about a forward operating base in general, it's a common noun. Words should not always be capitalized just because they also make an acronym. If that were the case, we would have HAMAS, not Hamas. Parsecboy (talk) 13:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at the FOB article you will see that it like this one is not a discussion of the concept of a forward operating base, it is a description of the actual real world Forward Operating Bases, and even more than this article is just a list of FOBs. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

text: By the way we go by common usage. If common usage was Hamas we would use that, if it was HAMAS we would use that. Or HaMaS. A quick Google search reveals that while HAMAS is occasionally used the overwhelming common usage is Hamas. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 18:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's because there isn't much more to say about what a FOB is than what's already in the intro and first section. As for common usage, you have thus far failed to demonstrate it. The only source you've provided is the one from the .navy.mil domain that supports lowercase. Vague assertions that capitalization is the norm don't cut it. Parsecboy (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't provide a source that supports moving the article. I don't support moving it. I gave four examples of how those three words could be used as a description and properly not capitalized. One or all of them may have been from dot-mil. The article is 92.1% (or more) a list of Naval Air Stations. Someone has suggested splitting the US list to a separate article, which would be counterproductive, because you would be left with a 4,000 byte stub. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Any additional comments:
It sure would be nice to have some input on my previous unrelated questions (above). Thanks. Cgingold (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I did, in that section. — Becksguy (talk) 20:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion