Talk:Islam in Romania

message: Romania 
Two small Islamic communities have existed on Romanian territory in modern times. The first was built on Ada Kale, a small island in the Danube conquered by the Ottomans late in the 15th century. At the end of World War II, the island's population numbered about 1,000, but the community was dispersed in 1968, when the island was submerged by the construction of the Iron Gate hydroelectric dam. The second community is in Dobroudja, a region conquered by the Ottomans in the 14th and 15th century, but ceded to Romania in 1878, an event that triggered a mass exodus of Moslems to Turkey. Today, the population numbers about 50,000 Turks and Tatars, most of them farmers. Under Communist rule, this small community found itself in a difficult situation: Turkish and Tatar schools were closed, as was the country's only Moslem "seminary" at Medjidiya; Moslem religious publications were banned; and travel restrictions made a pilgrimage to Mecca impossible. Then, beginning in 1972, the changing international situation and the country's enormous economic difficulties forced the authorities to grant a few concessions to the Moslems, clearly seeking to improve Romania's image with wealthy Arab and Moslem states. Today, there is little information available on the Moslems of Dobroudja or on the ties they must have developed over the past two decades with religious bodies in Turkey, the Arab states, and other Islamic countries. 
--Latinitas 12:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody added that there is (again) a small Muslim community in Drobeta-Turnu Severin. Sure? --Roksanna 17:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Islam in Romania

message: A debate has followed my skeptical edits. I shall answer here.
As you may see for instance from these links http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:MrgvTBbP2VcJ:www.unibuc.ro/eBooks/ and http://www.informatia.ro/Article164275.phtml , the vast majority of historians view the actual text of "capitulations" as fake. This does not imply that documents of some sort had not been signed, and does not mean that the status of Muslims was not transparent in other pieces of legislation, and not even that the texts themselves cannot be deduced by attempting to see their effects. No. It means that we cannot pass into text such notions as certainties.
To the claim that "there was no Islamic presence" (which, in itself, is formulated like some essay, not like a sentence in an encyclopaedic article), I have to point out the article  History of Bucharest, which I have largely contributed to, where I reference the small Muslim settlement of traders in the capital (you may also want to think about Michael the Brave mass murdering his Turkish creditors on the same spot...). Furthermore, during the Russo-Turkish Wars, Turkish troops were stationed in the immediate vicinity of Bucharest.
There is one small edit which bothers me: hospodars is a link, leading to an article that is around to explain a quite common reference to the Princes of Wallachia and Moldavia in English! The talk about "translations" and "no need for them" is ridiculous (especially since Slavonic was the language of choice, and since English has for long accomodated the word itself - not its translations).
Moreover, the addition to the text is ungrammatical, repetitive, and informal. Dahn 18:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Capitulation et al.

message: The person who keeps reverting to a certain version omits some obvious things.
#writing the article from the perspective of "Islamic domination and its effects" avoids its very topic, is redundant to other articles, and expresses perspective that would not interest persons who do not want to get info about the land as much as they want to become aware of the communitiy's past (not of Romania's past).
#Transylvania and Islamic communities there are covered in the Banat section. Getting Transylvania in the same group with Wallachia and Moldavia, when nothing in that section will deal with Transylvania, and when the purpose is to (again!) repeat the focus on Ottoman rule (which was, evidently, not as relevant for Transylvania) makes no sense. The terminology "Romanian principalities", although favoured by many Romanian sources in its Romanian version (and, even there, it is, frankly, imposing a mild POV), is language invention in English. Calling Transylvania a "Romanian principality" is certainly not academic (it is like calling the Ottoman Empire a "Greek state" for ruling regions inhabited by Greeks)
#if the user has info on just how the building in Carol Park was not a mosque, but "a monument in the form of a mosque", let him present it and I'll admit I am wrong. In the meantime, it just looks like a halftruth.
#"vestiges" (which supposedly means artefacts etc.) do not count in assessing Islamic presence in the, say, 16th century. We have sources for that, and the text already mentions that Islamic presence was scarce and whatnot (be is based on "vestiges" or on sources).
#again, the text deals with Islamic presence as scarce as it was, not with Romanian pride in "not having been Islamicized" or any such other individual perspective. It is common sense to adequately list, in the main body of the article (and not in footnotes) whatever that ammounted to. Doing that will not even hurt the "not having been Islamicized" thesis (which is, in itself, obvious to the point where it needs no presentation); it will, as it should, fit the title and topic of this article! Dahn 09:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further objections

message: There is a rumour that Babadag is a holy site for muslims. I don't kow if it is an urban legend or not but, it will be intersting to have such section.
:I think it is a Sufi thing. The tomb of a certain Sarı Saltık Dede (or Sarı Saltuk Türbesi) - probably a saint. Dahn 22:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Romanian Holy sites

message: The term used on the romanian site is "geamia" and not "moschee" for the 80 payer houses. The arab language has two words for the english Mosque (The word "mosque" in English refers to all types of buildings dedicated for Islamic worship, although there is a distinction in Arabic between the smaller, privately-owned mosque and the larger, "collective" mosque (masjid jami) (Arabic: جامع), which has more community and social amenities.) Can somone detail this?CristianChirita
:On wikipedia, it looks like they all fit in the article for "mosque". In any case, using "is home to 80 geamies" is pure invention in the English language. Dahn 08:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the Romanian language does not seem to bother distinguishing in any proper way:  - DEX says both Construcţie destinată celebrării cultului la musulmani, de obicei mai mare decât moscheea. and moschee, (înv.) mecet. (~ la musulmani.). Now, if the quoted text does adhere to the first, and better, definition, the logical conclusion is that there are actually more than 80 Muslim places of worship in Romania (I'm not sure whether the tombs themselves are already counted). If, however, it sticks with the vaguer meaning, goodness knows how many there are... Dahn 14:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 80 Mosque

message: My respected friend Dahn, I understand your doubts but otherwise an extra stub-article about Islam in Moldova is not needed when we could add some few facts here. --Roksanna 15:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that would be: 1. highly unorthodox, since it will merge topics that have nothing in common today (despite your feelings, it would be like merging Moldova with Romania for the sake of it); 2. indifferent to the template at the bottom of the article (which expects a link for Moldova); 3. unacademic, since the topic of Islam is Moldova is in no particular and substantial way connected with the topic of Islam in Romania (note, for example, that all references to Islam in Bender refer directly to a period when the region was no longer under Moldavian rule and determine the start of period that culminated in Moldova not being a part of Moldavia/Romania ever since - except for 1918-1940; in other words, it would be like treating an article about the Mohawks as part of British history, given that the US were part of the British Empire at the time, if never again). Dahn 16:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Islam in Moldova

message: On this page as well as in an edit summary, user Roksanna used the terms Danubians and danubian history to designate Romanians and Romanian history. I was intrigued by such an unheard designation. After carefully reading this and other related pages, I could understand how this user came to that bizzare designation for Romanians.
There is an article named Danubian Principalities. This is a conventional name for the Romanian Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, traceable in some documents of the late 18th and the first half of the 19th centuries. Thus, it is an occasional and time-limited denomination of Moldavia and Wallachia. 
The problem appeared, as user Dahn begann to systematically wikilink this article to almost every mention of Moldavia and Wallachia, so that an honest user like Roksannaa, taking for granted the edits of other users, could believe that Danubians' really represents an alternative denominations od Romanians (!). 
The whole situation inherrs some trolling-like touch, since it reveals a systematic desinformation. However, I don't think that it deserves to be reported, because neither Dahn nor Roksanna can be suspected to deliberately troll. 
However, such situations should be taken seriously: any good-faith user could believe, as roksanna did, that danubians is another name for Romanians.
More sense of responsabiliy and moderation in wikilinking preffered articles would be very welcomed
--Timor Stultorum 13:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "Danubian Principalities" is traditional in English, and "Romanian Principalities" is both un-tradional and vague (not to mention self-contradictory). Nobody has ever implied that the name "Danubians" is an ethnonym, and Roksanna (again!) did not use it in that sense. The only trolling here was your message, Timor, as it misinterpreted two explicit points. Dahn 13:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I should comment on the obvious sophistry in implying that, because "Danubian" is an adjective to "Principalities", it must be an ethnonym (as should, by the same rule, "United" be to "Provinces" in the Netherlands, "Papal" be to "States" in Rome, and even "Habsburg" to "Empire"). Demanding "moderation", suspecting "systematic disinformation" when a simple adjective of tradition in English (and of value in helping the reader connect information common to Moldavia and Wallachia at a quick glance) was used, is either deliberate slander or a case of paranoia. Dahn 22:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Granted that you are not an idiot, "Danubians" still does not exist in English as a shortening of "Danubian principalities" or "people of the Danubian principalities". -Jmabel | Talk 19:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I see. Thanks. (It's just that the original text could theoretically leaned either way,and I was too involed in something else to be checking sources.) Dahn 00:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A trolling-like situation: the ''Danubians'' 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070926192157/http://www.isim.nl/files/newsl_3.pdf to http://www.isim.nl/files/newsl_3.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070125140301/http://rural.edu.ro/harta/unitate.html?idUnitateInvatamant=11049026 to http://rural.edu.ro/harta/unitate.html?idUnitateInvatamant=11049026&limba=en
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Attempted a fix for an incomplete cite (no journal title). Added the DOI and tripped the edit filter which advised that this is a predatory journal: 
* 
Placing here if anyone wishes to follow up and knnows where to find a better replacement source; there is already another ref cited at the same spot, which may be sufficient. I don't know enough about this to be sure. AukusRuckus (talk) 12:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit filter advice: questionable source