Talk:Joannes-Henricus de Franckenberg

message: To my knowledge, there has never been a Cardinal of Franckenberg for the same reason as there was never a John-Henry Cardinal of the Franks' mountain: Assuming there was a count of the countship Frankenberg who therefore was called in the original German language Graf von Frankenberg – such meant that the family name had become von Frankenberg. When such person would have become a cardinal, in English one might have called him Cardinal Joannes-Henricus von Frankenberg or Joannes-Henricus Cardinal von Frankenberg.
Unfortunately, in the days of the cardinal, the noble title was not even German at all. I quote a German text: "Die Priesterweihe empfing er in Mechelen am 14. Mai 1797 aus den Händen des dortigen Erzbischofs Kardinal Jean Marie de Franckenberg." I admit that I don't know how the Jean Marie came there - even in French it should have been Jean Henri, but the acceptance of the French spelling of the family name is obvious. That's also how I found it from the horse's mouth in the Dutch language list of archbishops of Mechelen: Joannes-Henricus Kardinaal de Franckenberg (1759-1801). The family name occurs for many people in the English language as "de Franckenberg".
Thus we must call him Cardinal Joannes-Henricus de Franckenberg or Joannes-Henricus Cardinal de Franckenberg.
Else we should have to rename the article on Beethoven as Ludwig of Beethoven; though this man was actually well-known as Ludwig von Beethoven, notice that the article by that name redirects towards Ludwig van Beethoven as this was the true (Flemish) name: his grandparents lived in Mechelen. If this is respected for one whose father actually moved to a German speaking area, it must surely be respected for the cardinal who may have been a count of a (perhaps by France conquered) German speaking countship but clearly had a French language noble title when he moved to Mechelen, who surely never had an English translation for his name. — SomeHuman 2006-06-11 09:16 (UTC)
:First time I write here, I'm doing my thesis on Jean-Henri/Johannes-Henrikus/... (Student from Leuven, thesis is for June 2007) The point is a bit far fetched imo, but on the other hand valid too. I think the best solution is simply to change the title of this article to Joannes-Henricus, Cardinal de Franckenberg. What happened as I see it was that someone translated the work of A. THEINER: Jean Henri, comte de Frankenberg, cardinal archevèque de Malines, primat de Belgique et sa lutte pour la liberté de l’Eglise et pour les séminaires épiscopaux sous l’emperéreur Joseph II, Leuven, 1852, translating the part "Cardinal de Franckenberg" too literal into "of" and of course in Dutch he is also known as "van Franckenberg" (he signed his letters and documents with this and with de Franckenberg, see the archbishopical archives in Mechelen/Malines for this).
:I name this work because all the info in this article is in that work, while other works have more an indepth biography of him plus they have been made in the 20th century: D. DE CLERCQ, Cinq archevêques, from : Ecclesiae particulares aevo moderno : studia et documenta, 2, Paris, 1974.
:So anyway, if someone can simple change the title, I think everything can be put to rest? — 80.201.42.221 2006-08-10 16:55 (UTC)
::Obviously. Since the origin of "of Franckenberg" is clearly based on a mistake, no objections must be expected. Done. — SomeHuman 2006-08-10 19:17 (UTC)
The Catholic Encyclopedia refers to this individual as "Johann Heinrich, Graf von Frankenberg". Olessi (talk) 23:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Title and thus article name questioned