Talk:Miles Davis/Archive 1

message: My point is simple:  WHO are the so-called "authorities" who claim that miles was the "first" person to "understand" the difference between live and recorded music?  and secondly, WHAT are the differences?  interestingly, none are given, no sources, no citations, and no description of what the "difference" is.   so the sentence seems pretty nonsensical and ill-conceived, in fact it's pretty much "journalistic fluff" that has no meaning and is internally contradictory.  IF ANYTHING, davis must have defined  the difference, or somehow created a difference, if nobody else "understood" it yet.  Is the writer trying to say somehow, a distinction existed between live and recorded music, but it just hadn't been put into practice, just hadn't ever been realized by any musician?  this is absurd.   i'm going to change the passage to say something more sensible.
:That sentence went in on the 20th of July , and you're right, it needs to come out until it's referenced.  --  ajn</span> (talk) 16:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "understanding" recorded/live difference 

message: This is a good piece.  I see a few stylistic things I'd consider refining.  For example, wouldn't it be better to say that Davis was "freed from" rather than "stripped of" the rhythmic constraints he'd been under earlier?  Seems the music itself would be stripped of, the man would be freed from.  
As to the question of Davis' ultimate importance, I think perhaps it could be stressed that Davis was a real star of jazz, with money, influence and mystique  (and clothes and cars), and that this is an important part of what made him a major figure.  Also, the parallel with Ellington is interesting and might be elaborate upon beyond the fact that neither were "great" instumentalists  (although I'd rate Ellington higher as pianist than Davis as trumpeter).  Both were great bandleaders, synthesizers  (and, perhaps, users of other's ideas?).  I think Davis is as great a figure as any in jazz, but not for the usual reasons jazz figures are great--virtuostic instrumental styles and so forth.  And I don't quite get this from the piece, and it's really a critical commonplace these days.
Finally, the electric period  (which has come under increased scrutiny and whose value, once low in critical works, has increase dramatically)  seems to me to be given short space.  The period from '68 to "Agartha" in '75 is seven years, a long time--certainly as long as any period in Davis' career.  I think there needs to be more about these records, and most critics now cite "A Tribute to Jack Johnson" and parts of "Get Up with It" and all of "Agartha" as the major Davis electric works.  So, could there be more here?
: All good points.  Put 'em in GWO
All in all, though, nicely done.
: Thanks GWO
I added a bit about the reassessment of the electric period, and a sentence about the "Jack Johnson" album, as well as about the release of the "Jack Johnson Sessions."  Did a little tinkering with the piece.  As I say above, it's a good 'un, and I certainly hope I helped it a bit.  
Myself, I love Armstrong and Charlie Parker but can certainly see how opinions might differ...eddhurt
It's pretty clear that Kind of Blue is the "greatest selling jazz record ever", and I've removed some of the other hyperbole about Bitches Brew (which is an album I love, and very important in Davis's development, but not the pinnacle of his career).
--Andrew Norman 14:40, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
I'm a bit surprised that whilst John Scofield is singled out as one of Miles' guitarists during his "comeback" period in the 80's, no mention is made of that other great guitar player, Mike Stern.--194.51.11.113 14:31, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miles and electric period, etc. 

message: Is there a reason this article isn't in the "Category:Miles Davis"?  It seems like such an obvious one, right?  I'm asking first, because I'm betting there's a good reason that I'm just not thinking of.  --  TomPreuss 13:21, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miles Davis Catagory 

message: I have no idea why people have ignored this subject or have completely put it off the map. Miles Davis, while a significant force in music, was also a cruel man toward women and also a racist against whites. He made this quote in regards to whites "If somebody told me I only had an hour to live, I'd spend it choking a white man. I'd do it nice and slow." (Jared Taylor (Paved With Good Intentions: The Failure of Race Relations in America -- 1992, pg. 233)
:He was very angry on the subject of race, but I don't think that quote is representative - he loved to wind people up, especially on this subject, and in fact took some stick throughout his career for having white people in his group (I think Dave Liebman talks about this in the Miles Davis Story DVD).  Women are another matter, and he was undoubtedly extremely cruel and sexist, as several of them testify in the DVD.  I think it's worth mentioning - in fact, the article says very little about his personal life.  It doesn't need to turn into "Miles Davis - wifebeater who also played the trumpet", but there ought to be something in there.  --Andrew Norman 06:52, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There's several things you can write about both.  Whether he was a racist or not, I am not convinced.  Miles always said that he could always be able to tell what a white saxophonist sounded like and what a black saxophonist sounded like.  Conversely, Miles was quite pro-integration on the subject of the "Crow Jim" phenomenon in jazz.  He was vituperated for hiring Bill Evans into his group, yet he responded: "I remember when I hired Lee Konitz, some coloured cats bitched about me hiring an ofay in my bands when Negroes didn't have work.  I said if a cat could play like Lee, I would hire him.  I couldn't give a damn if he was a green and had red breath."  In contrariety, Miles stated quite a militant approach in 1963, "When it comes to human rights, these prejudiced whites keep acting like they own the damn franchise!".  As regards women, he was rather perplexed by them, "I don't care what a bitch does, as long as she doesn't lie about it.  I can always tell when they're lying, and I hate that.  I hate the lies."  There's some jump-off points.--Knucmo2 18:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexism and Racism of Miles Davis 

message: This article states that Miles was 'largely responsible' for the developments of fusion and modal jazz.  Nothing could be more discrediting and denigratory to the other musicians in jazz who were equally vital in these developments.  For instance, the use of modes in jazz was George Russell's innovation as seen in his work from the early fifties and his academic essay "Lydian Concept of Tonal Organisation".  Brubeck, Mingus, and even Ellington were using modes in the early fifties too.  This was just a movement which Miles happened to focus on because he was sick of the harmonic jumble of chord changes that jazz was becoming.  Fusion is another instance, for example musicians such as Larry Coryell, Seventh House, even Tony Williams and his group Lifetime, a member of Miles' group & John McLaughlin a future Miles employee, were experimenting with rock and jazz before Miles decided to.  In both cases, Miles came to define and popularize these movements, but he did not actually invent them per se.  This is fictitious and it is characteristic of the vacuous nonsense wrote by rock journalists with no grasp of what jazz really is who write in Mojo, and Uncut who write stuff like 'Miles had already changed jazz three times blah blah invented cool, blah invented fusion'... et cetera, et cetera.--Knucmo2 19:13, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The 'Miles Myth'

message: Hello, this article is messed up, the references and links are gone.  I reverted the last edit that blanked it, but there was quite a few previous edits that really messed up the article.  Isn't anyone monitoring this article while it is featured on the main page?  Please fix as soon as possible.--CrazyTalk 15:12, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  URGENT - this featured article is messed up - please fix 

message: My point is simple:  WHO are the so-called "authorities" who claim that miles was the "first" person to "understand" the difference between live and recorded music?  and secondly, WHAT are the differences?  interestingly, none are given, no sources, no citations, and no description of what the "difference" is.   so the sentence seems pretty nonsensical and ill-conceived, in fact it's pretty much "journalistic fluff" that has no meaning and is internally contradictory.  IF ANYTHING, davis must have defined  the difference, or somehow created a difference, if nobody else "understood" it yet.  Is the writer trying to say somehow, a distinction existed between live and recorded music, but it just hadn't been put into practice, just hadn't ever been realized by any musician?  this is absurd.   i'm going to change the passage to say something more sensible.
:That sentence went in on the 20th of July , and you're right, it needs to come out until it's referenced.  --  ajn</span> (talk) 16:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "understanding" recorded/live difference 

message: Substituted at 20:24, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: He tried to pursue the case by bringing a suit against the New York City Police Department, but eventually dropped the proceedings[citation needed]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.203.130.22 (talk) 22:06, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: He was assaulted by a NYPD police officer while he was taking a cigarette break outside one of his performamces. There is plenty of information on this, from press and biographies.Dogru144 (talk) 20:10, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Like what?Vmavanti (talk) 22:46, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any source on this? Or link to complaint? 

message: is there a page for his Autobiography, written with Quincy Troupe in 1989?
https://www.amazon.ca/Miles-Autobiography-Davis/dp/0671635042
I certainly cited it enough times in the discographical pages I added content to, 
but I don't see any mention of it at all in this main page. 
Even if there is no page specifically for the book, a sentence about it should be added to this page, in between whatever albums or other projects he was working on at the time. It's probably of more interest to Miles fans than those 80s albums! 
J Edward Malone (talk) 23:09, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miles: the Autobiography 

message: https://www.wsj.com/articles/ta-nehisi-coates-and-the-politics-of-contempt-1505861888
Column by   Jason L. Riley, WSJ
"The great jazz musician Miles Davis was known for his boorishness, especially toward his white fan base. Davis would play his trumpet with his back to the audience and curse at people between sets. “If somebody told me I only had one hour to live, I’d spend it choking a white man,” he once told a newspaper reporter. “I’d do it nice and slow.” His admirers ate it up."
-This is morornic NONSENSE! What idiot wrote this? A racist? Miles had his back turned to the audience so he could communicate with his fucking band mates!! He and others have publically stated this! Not everything is about you!
SInce I've never edited this article, I'll leave it to the regulars to  find a place for it. I'm a fan of his music. His anti-white perjudice is news to me. --Pete Tillman (talk) 20:31, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: An opinion column, such as the one you cited, is not considered a reliable source for facts, only for the opinions of its author. See WP:RSOPINION. If it were a significant aspect of Davis's life, we could look for a reliable source for the fact that he said it. See WP:PROPORTION. I haven't read any book-length biographies of Davis, but if his attitude toward white people were significant enough to warrant a mention in such a biography, it should be included here. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:27, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miles Davis's boorishness toward whites 

message: This article is too long. It starts okay, then becomes a month by month account of his life. What's the point of knowing the day, month, and year of a particular recording session? Or the details of those sessions which go even further? Esp. when that information is repeated in the discography or on album pages or both. When you include detail indiscriminately, you bore the reader, because readers like variety. Sentences accrues with little indication of why that sentence ought to be included. The result is tall and flat, like a skyscraper, and every bit as boring. The repetition is monotonous. I realize this is an encyclopedia, so it isn't going to have the hierarchical shape of a story or essay. I realize that objectivity, disinterest, and impartiality remove some of the pizzazz from prose. Nevertheless, the delete key is the editor's most important tool. I'm not picking on this article. I see these mistakes all over Wikipedia and elsewhere. Perhaps they are a sign of the Facebook age.Vmavanti (talk) 01:32, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Those sort of precise details belong at the articles for the albums themselves, which Wiki has for any of his recordings.104.169.18.0 (talk) 00:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too long 

message: No section on this? Nothing on spouses or children?Dogru144 (talk) 03:59, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It is interspersed throughout the body of the article. Dan56 (talk) 04:09, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal life

message: A discussion is taking place as to whether :Portal:Miles Davis is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at this MfD discussion page until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 23:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nomination of [[:Portal:Miles Davis]] for deletion 

message: I read in Cicely Tyson's newly released book information that I think should be included in the article:
"In the months since I’d last seen Miles,(that's in 1988) I’d heard the talk of his health status. Word at the salon was that he’d contracted HIV. In fact, though the US press hadn’t broadcast that news widely, it was all over Europe that he’d sought treatment there. He’d apparently begun a course of AZT, the antiretroviral drug then used to treat HIV and AIDS. Rumors also swirled that Miles and his longtime male hairdresser, Finney, were lovers. Frankly, I’d heard that gossip for years and had tuned it out for just as many, in hindsight because believing it would’ve crushed me beyond repair. "
Don't know how to cite the reference though. 
Mightbeaquarian (talk) 20:23, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen similar reports of rumours elsewhere, but we should have more concrete information than rumours before including it. EddieHugh (talk) 19:49, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fairly sure that Ian Carr's biography of Miles briefly states that he was bisexual, but I'm speaking from memory as I don't have access to the book just now.  If someone can find it a reference might be added.  Also, it wouldn't necessarily be connected with HIV/AIDS, as Miles might well have been infected in other ways, if in fact he did have HIV.2A00:23C8:7906:1301:B5C4:85EA:C8F:C62 (talk) 13:40, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

text: (Added to my previous comment)  I have been re-reading Ian Carr's biography of Miles (2nd edition).  He briefly discusses Miles and bisexuality towards the end of chapter 22 'Tutu'. (It won't be in the first edition, which was published while Miles was still alive.)  I can't give a precise page reference, because I am reading the Kindle edition, which doesn't give original page numbers, but it must be soon after page 480, where Carr mentions the death of James Baldwin.  In the Kindle edition it is around location 8068.  Carr is quite matter-of-fact about Miles being bisexual, and implies that it was well-known in jazz circles.  He speculates that it may have influenced critics' responses to Miles's work. He also mentions the rumours about Miles and AIDS, but describes them as 'baseless'.2A00:23C8:7906:1301:202D:2160:D3F4:6701 (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help with citation 

message: https://www.allmusic.com/album/merci-miles%21-live-at-vienne-mw0003522147
Somebody should really write an article about this album (and add it to the discography and the template) ... I don't have the necessary skills to do it myself. 84.196.169.121 (talk) 16:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  New live album (released June 2021)