Talk:Gaj's Latin alphabet

message: Under the heading "Usage for Slovene" there is a claim that "Slovene orthography is comparatively less phonetic than Serbo-Croatian." Unless supported supported by a reference this should be deleted. The reason is that there is no Serbo-Croatian orthography. Each language has its own orthographical rules. For example, the word "salt" is spelled "so" in Serbian, and "sol" in both Croatian and Slovenian. When it comes to voicing assimilation, the situation is different in Serbian and Croatian: compare the Croatian "metci","Meci" (bullets, Mecca (locative case)) to the Serbian "meci","Meci".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.0.15.171 (talk) 06:09, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed for Usage for Slovene 

message: The pronounciation kve is indeed used for "q", it was actually easy for me to find a reference - a recent paper published by the Croatian Philological Society (Zagreb) or an older paper published by the University of Osijek. But on second thought, that whole thing veers off-topic here. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:54, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: My reaction was a bit knee-jerk, I admit. However, I must admit that I've never heard kve (and I've been in a [limited] contact with technical Croatian). OTOH, ku is a quite common pronunciation, I believe in Croatia as well, that it shouldn't be replaced with a quite obscure one (and only borderline on topic). No such user (talk) 11:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's actually fairly common IME. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:32, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  pronunciation of missing letters 

message: This is not Gaj's Latin alphabet, Gaj's alphabet does not look like that. It is wrong to say that Serbo-Croatian language today is written on Gaj's alphabet.
Modern Croatian/Serbo-Croatian alphabet: Aa, Bb, Cc, Čč, Ćć, Dd, Dždž, Đđ, Ee, Ff, Gg, Hh, Ii, Jj, Kk, Ll, Ljlj, Mm, Nn, Njnj, Oo, Pp, Rr, Ss, Šš, Tt, Uu, Vv, Zz, Žž.
Original Gaj's alphabet from Kratka osnova: Aa, Bb, Cc, Čč, Dd, Ďď, Ee, Ff, Gg, Hh, Ii, Jj, Kk, Ll, Ľľ, Mm, Nn, Ňň, Oo, Pp, Rr, Ss, Šš, Tt, Ťť, Uu, Vv, Zz, Žž.
Compromised Gaj's alphabet from Pravopis: Aa, Bb, Cc, Čč, Ćć, Dd, Ee, Ěě, Ff, Gg, Hh, Ii, Jj, Kk, Ll, Mm, Nn, Oo, Pp, Rr, Ss, Šš, Tt, Uu, Vv, Zz, Žž. + digraphs dj, lj, nj, tj. (but not considered part of alphabet)
Ljudevit Gaj had an effect of formatting Croatian writing, but all of this was change by Serbo-Croatian unity. So modern Serbo-Croatian language or writing has nothing to do with Ljudevit Gaj. But has to do with Karadžić and Daničić.
The modern Latin Serbo-Croatian alphabet is fail attempt of unifying phonetic alphabet for Vukopis, which would correspond with Cyrillic alphabet.
Failed phonetic Serbo-Croatian alphabet: Aa, Bb, Cc, Čč, Ćć, Dd, Đđ, Ee, Ff, Gg, Ǵǵ, Hh, Ii, Jj, Kk, Ll, Ļļ, Mm, Nn, Ńń, Oo, Pp, Rr, Ss, Šš, Tt, Uu, Vv, Zz, Žž.
Example of final Gaj's alphabet against modern Serbo-Croatian alphabet and spelling:
Gaj's alphabet: - U vertu raste prělěpo červeno cvětje.
Modern Serbo-Croatian alphabet: - U vrtu raste prelijepo crveno cvijeće.
English: - In the garden grows beautiful red flowers.
So this entire article is wrong. 46.229.249.253 (talk) 22:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaj's alphabet 

message: Per this document from 1841 it seems that Serbian Latin predates Croatian in the use of the very characteristic Dj, Lj, Nj found in the Gaj´s Latin.  This would mean that the entire concept of this being a "Croatian alphabet" (as it is mentioned on several occasions in the article right now) goes down the hill, and would mean that both, Croatian and Serbian languages, share the alphabet, at least, and Serbian even used earlier a number of specificities of "Gaj´s alphabet" such as ones mentioned. Any thoughts? FkpCascais (talk) 04:36, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ljudevit Gaj introduced dj, nj, lj, tj, gj, ě in year 1836 in article Pravopis in his magazine Danicza horvatzka, slavonzka y dalmatinzka. Both Croats and Serbs started to use his proposed letters and spelling, since his proposition was to unify all "Illyrians" (Yugoslavs). This document is from 1841, the rest speaks for it self (Serbian Latin did not existed before Ljudevit Gaj). 46.229.244.203 (talk) 01:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course. My point was just that by this table it seems that Serbian started using Gaj´s Latin before Croatian. FkpCascais (talk) 20:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  This table first appeared in 1841 in the book Српске народне пјесме (Serbian folk songs) https://books.google.com.au/books?id=_m5cAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA474&dq=Srpske+narodne+pjesme&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit3ry4p7HQAhXDUZQKHXyUAyoQ6AEILDAC#v=onepage&q&f=false by Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, who was known for claiming that all the štokavian speaking South Slavs (including Croats and Macedonians) are Serbs. That accounts for his claim that “Serbs” are writing in a Latin alphabet. The alphabet described as “Serb. Lat.” was the one and the same as used by Croats in Slavonia, before Ljudevit Gaj’s 1835 orthographical reforms. The Slavonian orthography for the Croatian language was developed in the 18th century, and recognised for use in schools in 1779 (see Uputjenje k'slavonskomu pravopisanju za potrebu narodnieh ucsionicah u kraljestvu Slavonie 1779 - http://hrcak.srce.hr/12782). The alphabet described as “Croat.” was the one and the same as used by Croats in Croatia proper (the counties of Zagreb, Varaždin and Bjelovar-Križevci), before Ljudevit Gaj’s 1835 orthographical reforms. So, the table is incorrect in at least 4 counts: (1) It labels Croatians using the old Slavonian orthography as “Serb. Lat.” (2) It is not up to date (1841) because it does not show Ljudevit Gaj’s 1835 orthographical reforms which were adopted by all Croatians. (3) It does not show the then-current Serbian alphabet which was used by Serbs before the official adoption of Karadžić’s Cyrillic alphabet in 1868. (4) The claim that Serbs write in a Latin alphabet is not supported by Karadžić’s work itself – the 1841 book Српске народне пјесме is written entirely in Cyrillic.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.0.15.171 (talk) 03:21, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian Latin predates Croatian in the use of characteristic Dj, Lj and Nj? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The naming section implies that the longer forms ("be", "ce") are used only when clarity is needed, when, in fact, they're the prevailing form in initialisms. The "followed by a schwa" thing applies only in an initialism including a letter for which the name is obscure and rarely used.
Saying they don't have names is plainly wrong (from the Hrvatski pravopis by the Croatian Institute for Language and Linguistics):
"Nazivi su slova hrvatske latinice ("The names of the letters of the Croatian Latin alphabet are"): a, be, ce, če, će, de, dže, đe, e, ef, ge, ha, i, je, ka, el, elj, em, en, enj, o, pe, er, es, eš, te, u, ve, ze, že." 
https://pravopis.hr/slova/
The article lists them correctly, but it incorrectly makes them seem as somehow unofficial and rarely used. Hahonja (talk) 15:40, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to amend the article, but be aware that the names for "extended Latin" letters (če, će, dže, ..., elj, enj, eš, že) are never used in Serbian and (as far as I know) Bosnian either. In fact, I must say they sound downright alien. Are they really used in Croatian practice? In Serbian, other letters are indeed pronounced in initialisms as you say (but since most initialisms do not contain the extended letters they are not missed). No such user (talk) 20:49, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, they aren't used in practice (although that's more of a detriment of the educational system, this should be done in first-second grade, and is done never). But the article is incorrect in stating they don't have official names. Hahonja (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The letters do not have names" 

message: Regarding this change, the original contributor probably chose mjenjačnica because there are many common and authentic examples of it written vertically in various public places in Croatia (e.g., here and here)—and it also contains a divided mj sequence for useful contrast. It is doubtful that there are any common examples of zemlja written vertically. (If the IP contributor opining "a better example" is simply looking for a short word, then nje, nju, and ulj are available). Doremo (talk) 18:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Let’s try "nju". 2601:C6:D281:6710:6D80:FAE8:920:A7A8 (talk) 17:02, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  mjenjačnica