Talk:Rock Springs massacre/Archive 2

message: I hearby nominate this article for a peer-review at WP:FAC. I understand that User:IvoShandor feels the article has a few minor issues. I would be happy to help fix whatever they might be. In my opinion this article has it all. Ok! 18:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nomination for Featured Articles peer review

message: I have reviewed the article and believe it meets all points at WP:WIAGA. I was careful to pay particular attention to all sentances to look for pov, especially in regards to previous discussions on the talk page. I was unable to find either any information that seemed non-neutral or any claims/assertions that were not supported by a relevant reference. Everything else with the article, images, image captions, coverage of the topic, well written, stable etc all apply. I do however have a few recommedations for improvement especially as I feel that this article would do well to be nominated for FA status.
My biggest suggestion for improvement is to shorten some elements of the article. There is a considerable section for example both on the background to the massacre and the aftermath - post massacre violence section. Although interesting I think the entire post massacre section could be incorporated into one or two summarising paragraphs rather than the long section it is now. This article is about the massacre and although it is important to set both the context of events and the immediate aftermath it does seem that the article is almost a general appraisal of anti-chinese relations and the massacre rather than just the massacre alone. I feel that this over coverage does not affect the article from being GA status but rather that it would prevent it from reaching a future status of FA. Furthermore the information contained in the lead section, assertions etc are referenced and elaborated in the main article but perhaps it might do well to include a few of the references from the main article to support the lead section? Anyway great work and well done to all who contributed to improve.LordHarris 13:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made some tweaks in this area in preparation for some expansion as well as some source diversification. Please do take a look. I can't figure where to trim the Wyoming immigrants section, I cut it some, but maybe you could help me out with some tips, if it needs to be trimmed at all.  IvoShandor 14:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the recent edits have made it a lot more concise, at least in regards to post violence e.g. the new article at Washington. I dont see the need to trim it any further and the Wymoning section as it stands is a good precursor to understanding the context for the massacre. Good work. LordHarris 00:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Passed

message: :* Over coverage - LordHarris has acknowledged, above, that the outstanding points about condensing the article, made on the passing GA review, have been suffciently addressed. IvoShandor 09:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * - Unless concerns are raised (Cites can always be added easily) Which leaves the lead, my understanding is only extraordinary claims need be referenced in the lead if the are everything is referenced in the article. We will have to see what may warrant citation in the lead after it is rewritten pending further work. IvoShandor 09:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: * Better way to conclude the article? IvoShandor 10:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA review items

message: Here's a couple of quick structural things at a glance, I won't get around to reading it until tomorrow:
** Section titles should not repeat the title of the article (WP:MSH), could just be Massacre.
** There's should be some kind of linking to the monetary unit when the mention of money first appears ($150,000 --> $150,000 or US$150,000.
** It looks slightly more aesthetic when several refs appear together to have them in numerical order.
:::*Added a lot, will go back and fix this, it's jacked up all over. IvoShandor 12:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have gone back and fixed this, done again. IvoShandor 12:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I think I got all of these. IvoShandor 12:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *All suggestions incorporated. IvoShandor 12:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick suggestions

message: Some of the more lasting consequences could be gathered into a concluding section, such as :
In U.S. domestic politics the perceived slow reaction by Cleveland may have contributed to the Republican victory in the 1888 election that followed. There is no proof that the Knights of Labor were behind the massacre at Rock Springs but the group's strong anti-Chinese position was weakened as a result of the riot.
Moreover, a brief bit of modern-day commentary could be included in that section as well (?)
Good work!
Ling.Nut 13:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think one of my sources actually has the full text of the letter . . . the quote should be footnoted, and have some context provided, IMO. IvoShandor 06:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Roger that, I will add something about the letter. I am working on some stuff in my user space, see User:IvoShandor/Rock Springs Massacre work page, some of it is not relevant any longer. IvoShandor 10:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes we are. I saw the note when I went in to make some tweaks, moved it myself, you may not realize this but I have seen this page way too much. ; ) IvoShandor 12:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So I didn't. IvoShandor 12:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know how you feel; I feel the same way about other articles. ;-) Anyhow, the relevant note is #22. Please put it anywhere you think it seems best. :-) Ling.Nut 13:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: What I am writing in my user space has to end up in the causation section, any ideas for "modern day commentary"? I am not sure how this article should conclude, is it okay as is? IvoShandor 13:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "consequences" as concluding section 

message: * I enjoyed reading this article. One point - the geographical co-ords at top right are usually seen on articles about a geographical location, not on historical articles about an event. If the c-ords refer to Rock Springs, put the co-ords template in the article somewhere and say this explicitly, otherwise it is just confusing. At the moment, the co-ords point to a car park between Bridger Ave and Elias Ave in Rock Springs. Carcharoth 13:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Removed. IvoShandor 13:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *I am looking, there is a claim, unverified, along those lines in the Rock Springs, Wyoming article. IvoShandor 13:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I do have some information about the location of the mines and Chinatown circa 1885, where would this be best suited as an addition? IvoShandor 13:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *If it will help those in the area orientate themselves, yes. I think you mentioned a river. Is that still there? Carcharoth 13:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Bitter Creek is an intermittent stream, but I am sure it's still there, I will check with the friendly USGS and get back to ya. IvoShandor 14:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *Roger that, will look for that. As for modern day towns I think ideally, if the article on the city of Rock Springs were to become featured it would cover the town's history through the territorial days too. IvoShandor 13:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *I just went with Wyoming on second reference and after, checked the others, they were all correct except for the link to Montana, it now points at the territory. IvoShandor 13:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *No problem. I enjoy this sort of gentle collaboration. I make suggestions, but others do all the work! :-) Carcharoth 13:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *I have seen "company" and "department." This is one where I would like to employ the gentle collaboration, a request for some of the Wyoming project members to help with the red links has been made. There are five I think. IvoShandor 14:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *As a subset of :Category:Chinese American history for example? Carcharoth 13:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *If it warrants it we should just go ahead and do that now, I created this plus the articles linked from the Washington article and Oregon article (Chinese Massacre Cove). I saw the link you added, coolio, I wasn't sure if there was an article for that one, I didn't really look though. IvoShandor 14:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: there is, I say with deep regret, a very large amount of info on Anti-Chinese Violence in North America. Should this be a cat, or should there be an umbrella article with links to individual incidents? Ling.Nut 14:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both. That way the main article can provide a general overview with links to main articles throughout, or it can be linked from the individual articles, whichever is easier. Categories are just useful in their own right, this one would be anyway. IvoShandor 14:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cat name should be a small 'v'. Check other categories to get a name that is consistent with those. Have a look at :Category:Racism. That should show how this has been tackled elsewhere. Most concern modern racism, though historical racism might be in some of the slavery categories. You are already aware of :Category:Racially motivated violence in the United States - browse around from there and see what you find. Carcharoth 14:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also: :Category:History of immigration to the United States. Carcharoth 14:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice article 

message: Per comments above from Carcharoth, so far I have been able to find nothing on any memorials. No listings on the National Register of Historic Places exist related to the Massacre. There was once some remaining buildings from Camp Pilot Butte that comprised a historic district but they are no longer extant and don't appear on the National Register any longer. I checked the closest National Forests and Recreation ares sites for anything as well as Rock Springs city website. Nothing came up. There is, however, a Historical Museum and society in Rock Springs, I will shoot them an email and see if they may be able to point me in the right direction about a memorial and somewhere published to verify it. IvoShandor 14:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask them if the mine is still open, and when it closed. Carcharoth 14:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will do. IvoShandor 14:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, so I lied. They don't have an email address posted. I am just going to email the mayor of Rock Springs, surely he will have their email address, I could just call them I suppose but taking notes about potential sources and publications they point me toward is hard over the phone. IvoShandor 06:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It must be the dark ages out there ; ) The mayor doesn't have an email posted, none of the council members do! I will see what I can track down, may take a few days though. IvoShandor
(undent) I sent an email to the Rock Springs Chamber of Commerce because I found an email address, chambers are usually pretty well connected so they should be able to at least point me toward someone who would know. IvoShandor 18:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Memorials

message: I wrote a new paragraph, take a look at it here. Any input on where to put it in the article? IvoShandor 19:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added it to Causation. IvoShandor 13:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A new paragraph

message: The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
*Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
::Don't see any months etc linked, any irrelevant links? IvoShandor 15:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I don't think there is, unless anyone has some suggestions. IvoShandor 15:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I don't know about this one, Causes maybe, the massacre section has to stay put, maybe outcome? don't want to make it too short, I am pretty satisfied with the length of readable text overall. The Post-massacre violence section was broken up per summary. 15:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *Working on this - have applied the first section of exercises and am working through more. As for the vague size terms, I will clean this up, a few of them should be okay, as exact numbers aren't really available. IvoShandor 15:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: *Also ongoing. : ) IvoShandor 15:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi Automated Peer Review 

message: I recommend the split references/notes format, e.g. that used in Alcibiades or Theramenes. I've started formatting the references this way. Also, I've linked to the NYT articles directly, and not just through ProQuest. – Quadell (talk) (random) 19:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I didn't realize they were available, that would have been a lot easier. : ) IvoShandor 07:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I guess they have to be purchased, but a couple of them would have saved trips to library, I originally tracked all of this down via microfiche. Blah. Talk about taking forever. IvoShandor 07:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn't check them myself, some NYT articles do some don't, the ProQuest can usually be accessed at most libraries though. IvoShandor 20:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reference format

message: "In 1880, the Chinese in Rock Springs worked in occupations outside of mining, though, most Chinese workers were employed in the coal mines around Wyoming and Sweetwater County."
1) Isn't Sweetwater County in Wyoming? If so, then "... around Wyoming and Sweetwater County" needs to be clarified. Either specify another location in Wyoming ("Sourwater County and Sweetwater County"), or indicate inclusion: "in Wyoming in general, and particularly, in Sweetwater County". Let me know what the intended meaning is, and I'll try to phrase it more clearly.
2) In the first clause, is the intent that the Chinese in Rock Springs worked only in non-mining occupations, as opposed to those who mined (coal) in (see #1 above)? Or is the intent that they worked other occupations in Rock Springs as well as being employed in coal mining in Rock Springs? Again, say intent, and I'll re-phrase the original. Unimaginative Username 18:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Chinese in Rock Springs in 1880 weren't really miners at this point according to sources, the intent being that even though that wasn't the case in Rock Springs it was in the much of the county and the rest of the state. Thanks btw. : ) IvoShandor 20:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Gotcha. Done. Let me know whether the edit captures your intent properly. Unimaginative Username 21:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification needed in "Background" section 

message: "In China, the governor–general of the Guangdong region suggested that Americans in China might be the target of revenge for the action in Rock Springs the U.S. government decided to capitulate."
"...the U.S. government decided to capitulate" doesn't fit into the rest of the sentence. Is it "...unless the US govt. etc...", or perhaps "... so the US Govt..." ? If not, what is the intent of these two unrelated sentences? Unimaginative Username 20:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Remove it. Remainder of some editing. IvoShandor 20:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Roger that. Done. Unimaginative Username 21:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diplomatic: broken sentence 

message: "The two buildings were owned by the Catholic Church, Saints Cyril and Methodius in Rock Springs."
Are we to understand that St. Cyril owns one building and St. Methodius owns another? Clarify, please :-) Unimaginative Username 22:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a church called "Saints Cyril and Methodius". See here. I've rephrased the sentence as "The two buildings were owned by the Saints Cyril and Methodius Catholic church, in Rock Springs." Carcharoth 23:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I gratuiously linked to Roman Catholic Diocese of Cheyenne and Saints Cyril and Methodius, but stuck it in a footnote, as it's not really relevant to the article. Interesting link back to Eastern Europe though. Carcharoth 23:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the building really owned by saints? 

message: Found a nice website. Any use?
*http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/rocksprings.html - follow the links at the bottom of each page to find more.
*stuff on the mines
*stuff on coal in Wyoming and on the massacre, plus a magnificant Harpers Weekly pic of the Chinese Examining Commission - someone should try and get hold of a scan of that.
Some quotes:
*"We are stopping now at a coal station, and have come upon the first signs of life except the miserable little house that adjoins the wood stations. There are coal mines around, on the hills on my left I see smoke rising out from the hills, it is a mine or fire, nearer us smoke rises from some tall chimneys of manufacturing buildings, we have come to the first busy looking place for many a long mile but the houses are all of the poorest description and look temporary. There is no appearance of home about them as there was in even cold and dreary Lamarie. There the land is cultivable and settlers have made homes there, here the fetid water's make mans stay here one of necessity never of choice."
*"The houses of the miners are built in an abrupt ravine, the walls of which form one of the sides of their houses. The roofs and sometimes a window project above the surface of the ground -- the roofs are covered with dried earth and clay, and the whole settlement has such a queer appearance. Just now a "heaten Chinee" passed us trudging laboriously along with a big piece of raw meat at one end of a long branch he carries over his shoulder and a heavy sack on the other end. We have come to the region of chinamen. The valley around us is so queer flat with sudden fissures running through it."
*"The Slovenes were, not, however, the first ethnic group to inhabit Rock Springs. As discussed with regard to Coal Camps, by 1885, Chinese constituted the largest population group in the area. In September of that year, festering resentment boiled over at Pit Number 6, resulting in the massacre of a number of Chinese and the burning of their houses. The resentment was as a result of a belief that the Chinese were keeping the wages down and by a favorable assignment of work at Pit Number 6 to the Chinese."
The best stuff though is in the third link above, relinked here. Have a look and see what you can use. Carcharoth 23:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had seen this site. But I doubt it meets WP:RS. That music makes me want to shoot their webmaster. IvoShandor 12:17, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Found a nice website 

message: Wow. Harpers Weekly have a whole webpage for the Chinese-American experience. The Immigrant and Ethnic America website from Harpers Weekly is at http://immigrants.harpweek.com/. Samples:
*The Chinese-American Experience 1857-1892
*Nine links to violence in Wyoming, including a transcript of the article about the massacre, the commission illustration I mentioned above, which accompanied this article, several editorials, an articles on the subsequent Seattle riots, and an interesting satirical cartoon here about the indemnities.
Can any of that be used? Carcharoth 23:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you might imagine, I have come across much of this stuff in my research, in particular I was trying to figure out how much to work in about the commission as the illustration is a good one (all of the old Harper's ones are really, in general, good). Probably would fit best in the arrests section  (arrests and investigations or the like). The Seattle stuff would go well in Seattle riot of 1886, we could use something to illustrate the section here. Much of this could be helpful, I don't want to rely too too much on primary sources, though for descriptions of events they are often the only sources. I think much of this could be useful here and in subsequent work I would like to do in this area. IvoShandor 06:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Harpers Weekly stuff 

message: I never have heard back from the Rock Springs Chamber of Commerce, perhaps this isn't something the city likes to remember. My guess is, there isn't much commemorating it, probably a plaque or marker or something but probably not a full-blown memorial, just based on the descriptions of the present-day locations, I would guess if there were a marker or memorial it wouldn't be completely unreferenced in the writings about Rock Springs today. Hard to say though. There are some articles listed above somewhere, two from the Annals of Wyoming and one from Montana, which I cannot find around here which would be helpful, not necessarily about the memorial but they could easily contain a remark about that topic. I cannot find them around where I am at (Illinois). IvoShandor 06:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Memorials, again

message: *Rewrite lead.
:* Maybe check the length, lose a few statements? IvoShandor 10:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Haha. I already did this a long time ago. IvoShandor 11:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Changed and added image, found better version of mining camp image. Should I edit out the colored strips at the bottom of the image or not? IvoShandor 12:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Have revised the chronology, it should read much better now. Nothing like a couple months away to give my eyes a tune up as far as this article goes. I am still working on specific dates and think I may be (emphasize may) able to find them, or at least really close to the exact day, via the New York Times. It is possible they neglected to follow up. IvoShandor 12:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Hoping this won't hold up a potential FA as this seems difficult without OR, or an original map, any help from Wyoming members of the project will be solicited but it seems unlikely.IvoShandor 10:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Have requested help from a part time Wikipedian librarian via her blog, but again I hope this won't hold up an FAC. IvoShandor 11:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

text: *Not sure how this works or if it is necessary, not opposed to it just seems like a lot of work for what is already a pretty easy to interpret citation system. 10:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Still left to do before FAC

message: Hi, IMO the article is excellent and would be happy to support it at FAC. The sections have been expanded and reference extremely well since its GA. I had a look and was unable to find any significant problems or major errors requiring a copyedit. I do have a few points to raise:
* Is it possible to expand this section (given that there are many references and that this is one of the causes of the massacre) is it possible to expand on anything related to their belief that Chinese drove down wages? The white miners at Rock Springs, comprised of mostly Swedish, Welsh, Irish and Cornish immigrants, believed that lower paid Chinese laborers drove down their wages.[10][11][12][13][14][15]
* The image caption could be expanded? Federal soldiers on South Front Street in Rock Springs, 1885 What are they doing on South Front street, whats their purpose etc/
* The following is a long quote, perhaps quote template could be used? Powerful Knights of Labor leader Terence Powderly wrote in a letter to W.W. Stone (excerpts of which he included in a report to the U.S. Congress) that, "It is not necessary for me to speak of the numerous reasons given for the opposition to this particular race – their habits, religion, customs and practices . . ." Powderly blamed the "problem" of Chinese immigration on the failings of the 1882 Exclusion Act. He faulted lax law enforcement, not those involved in the riots, for the attacks at Rock Springs. Powderly wrote that the U.S. Congress should stop "winking at violations of this statute" and reform the laws which barred Chinese immigration, which he believed could have prevented incidents such as "the recent assault upon the Chinese at Rock Springs"
These are just a few suggestions but really well done. Drop me a message when you go FAC. LordHarris 20:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will look at all of this but to be honest this is just getting to be too much (and I don't mean that to degrade you or anything) but I have worked and worked and worked and worked on this article and it still doesn't seem to be good enough. I am handstrung and am giving up. IvoShandor 06:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That being said, there are a few things that can be addressed if they will hold up the FAC. Perhaps I will nominate it and see where it goes. IvoShandor 06:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Review

message: Thanks to everybody who worked to make this article what it has become. : ) We made it to FA! Woohoo! IvoShandor 13:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Congratulations, IvoShandor!  I know you've been working very hard on this.  - CosmicPenguin (Talk) 14:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I just wanted to say

message: What? No star? : ( IvoShandor 14:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wha?

message: I edited The Asian Pacific American Heritage: a Companion to Literature and Arts (Routledge: NY, 1999) which won an American Library Association award as "One of the Outstanding Academic Books" of the year. I write to express my admiration for this article, which is living up to all we once hoped Wikipedia might be, despite the presence of hot button topics like race, immigration and class. It's fair, balanced, beautifully researched and beautifully written. It  faces up to two embarrassing facts-- the immigrant Chinese willingness to be scabs; and the union willingness to exploit racism and even to turn a blind eye to wildcat acts of violence by its members. It is American history at its most troubling and unpleasant. But it's true. Congratulations on this work. Profhum (talk) 16:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Superb work

message: Very fine job.
A similar pogrom happened in Truckee, California, which at one time had one of the largest Chinatowns in the state (perhaps the 2nd largest, after San Francisco).  Or maybe it was a series of pogroms.  Wikipedia doesn't have much about it, but there is a date of 1886, which would imply an influence of the Rock Springs Massacre.  Truckee was a railroad town (Central Pacific), and there was lumbering in the area.  I don't have time to research this, but I hope someone will.
Oaklandguy (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Truckee, CA: Similar incident 

message: Although the Knights would grow into one of the first de facto labour unions, this article demonstrates how early labour movements were undermined by pitting labour against itself by never discouraging and perhaps even encouraging conflict focused along racial lines. At the same time, employers were using early globalisation techniques to reduce the cost of labour, encouraged to keep doing so by bottom-line economics and by a government reluctant to acknowledge that any violation of civil rights had actually occurred. After all, the difference between this and modern-day globalisation is only that of shipping in labour vs. outsourcing parts of the labour structure in their entirety.
One wonders how much has actually changed. Repeated riots even up to modern times remind us that such perceptions are still very close to the surface. What civil rights can be claimed by illegal immigrants is still a matter of debate. Even today in this talk page, the role of the Chinese in the prelude to the conflict discussed in the article has been dismissed as "scabs", a concept that would not have applied within their cultural background and just barely within the historic economic background, but completely out of context -
:"When God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which he made a scab.... the modern strikebreaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children, and his fellow men for an unfilled promise from his employer, trust, or corporation." - Jack London
Note that London's assumptions don't apply in this case. In fact, since those workers were brought into the country specifically to provide cheap labour, the Chinese were caught between the choice to assimilate into the labour/cultural collective and not receive employment in future (being Chinese) or to be employed and not assimilate. If they would not be "scabs", they would be nothing, at least not in the United States. In effect, there was no birthright, family etc. to sell and at best a possibly filled promise to gain ... for the Chinese, at least. - Tenebris
* Hi! Talk pages are only to be used for discussion of the article itself. Wikipedia:Original research is not allowed within articles themselves. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ironic 

message: First, the whole Knights of Labor thing. It looks to me as though some supporter of the current Knights of Labor (do they still exist?)or a friend of theirs has been through the article trying to mitigate the responsibility of the National group for the actions of the Rock Spring chapter. Quite a lot of the article is based on a deposition made by the Chinese workers to the Chinese consulate (if you go to the list of victims, there is a link to this document), and that deposition is very clear that it was the Knights of Labor who instigated, organized, and carried out the massacre; and that this involved pre-planning. While it needs to be said that the riot was likely not instigated by the National organization, the article as it currently is seems to go quite a distance towards denying the KOL had anything to do with it, and that's clearly not the case. So maybe something needs to be said specifically about the relations between national organization and local chapters. And did the national organization ever issue any kind of statement that clearly condemened the actions of the local chapter? If they did not, then that is a significant fact that needs to be noted.
Second, the mutilation of the bodies. Currently, this is asserted to have happened, but the way it's written, it isn't clear whether it happened in this riot, or whether it happened in other riots at other times. The deposition by the miners themselves makes absolutely no mention whatever of any of these atrocities, so that ambiguity needs to be cleared up.
Theonemacduff (talk) 18:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, in terms of the national organization's response to the massacre, I believe that's addressed toward the end where it says the Knights' leader, Terence Powderly, basically blamed the whole massacre on not enforcing the Chinese Exclusion Act strongly enough, and clearly endorsed white laborers' opposition to competing with Chinese, while saying nothing to condemn the local Knights' actions. Pirate Dan (talk) 18:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I did think the local chapter's culpability was made evident in the article. But I cannot find a source that says the national organization had anything to do with the instigation, I suppose they did in the sense that they supported the local chapter. I will take a look at the second concern noted above but I'm not sure what I can do with the first unless some other sources come to light. This event has not been very well covered in academia. --IvoShandor (talk) 04:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also the KOL were dead by 1900, I am not a shill for labor unions, and I don't appreciate the implication that I am. The deposition is mostly used to describe the events of the riot only, almost no other parts of the article come from that source.--IvoShandor (talk) 08:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Couple of Problem Areas 

message: "To murder an industrious Chinaman is the same kind of fiendish work as the murder of women and children – it is equally a violation of the rights of the defenceless (sic)." What's the "sic" for? I can't see what's spelled incorrectly. 115.64.118.162 (talk) 19:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it is the "defenceless" which is ok in British English, but wrong in US. Maybe back when the quote was made that was the current spelling, so really the "(sic)" should only be present if in a source (otherwise it would be original research/incorrect).--Commander Keane (talk) 19:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what I suspected. My concern being that Wikipedia would be teaching people that British English is just an incorrect form of spelling. Probably not the best thing for an encyclopaedia site to be doing. 115.64.118.162 (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about that, I consulted the source, and fixed it. Twas the result of a misunderstanding of the usage of "sic", that's all, sorries.--IvoShandor (talk) 05:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sic? 

message: The article says that "the Rock Springs massacre and the exclusion of Chinese workers were not the most significant events in the history of the Knights of Labor."  How can this not be a subjective statement and violation of NPOV?  To the dead Chinese, their families, and many of their sympathizers, the Rock Springs massacre probably was the most significant event in the Knights' history.  To 19th century Eastern urban laborers and industrialists, of course, the Knights' labor organizing activities in the East would be far more significant.  Why should the article arbitrarily side with one group?  Pirate Dan (talk) 13:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Historians have, the article just compiles what has been written. History is inherently subjective. If you have a source that counters that, by all means, present it.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hear hear, Piratedan! Wiki needs to keep in mind that this is a fight to strive for objectivity. One should not have to provide an alternative source to omit a redundant statement. Ph33rspace (talk) 19:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it's a goal to be objective but not at the expense of what has been compiled about any event. We cannot arbitrarily substitute our own opinions over what is available in the sources either. Piratedan was not commenting on a redundant statement that I know of, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Nothing I assume.--IvoShandor (talk) 04:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Not the most significant event"?

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Rock Springs massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071009111207/http://www.wwcc.wy.edu/wyo_hist/ev.wyoming_and_the_chinese.htm to http://www.wwcc.wy.edu/wyo_hist/ev.wyoming_and_the_chinese.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928051204/http://www.dioceseofcheyenne.org/history/RS_SCM_Pilot_Butte_1885-1973_NRHP.html to http://www.dioceseofcheyenne.org/history/RS_SCM_Pilot_Butte_1885-1973_NRHP.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This is a really well written, gripping piece. Only gripe is that the header makes it look like the Chinese were rioting over the civil rights issue of equal pay. Just looking over the account of the "riot" makes it look more like a good old fashioned pogrom / extermination campaign of whites protective of their jobs and mad at strikebreakers (black Americans were also used in this fashion, much to the displeasure of mostly white workers) Great that it was featured, I would never have noticed it. A lot of Asian American topics are very sparse, but this looks good. I have to check to see if there is a general article on anti-Chinese or anti-Asian violence as this was hardly the only similar incident of the period. Bachcell (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, it's a pogrom. Thanks for the clue.  Yes, nice to see an article about Asian-American issues as a featured article, if only the article were clearer about what it's about. --68.127.233.138 (talk) 17:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Wow!"