Talk:Yuri (genre)/Archive 1

message: Could somebody please give explanations as to what the Yuri-Content of the mentioned series is? I mean, I consider myself a hardcore InuYasha Fan, yet I have seen nothing that even resembles Shôjo Ai here - so please help me out.
:Not a bad idea. While not being a hardcore fan of it, I have similar doubts about Love Hina : girls taking baths together shouldn't count as shoujo-ai in a culture where such a thing is commonplace, no ?
:Love Hina does contain a some shoujo-ai. For example, the episode when Shinobu fantasises about Su and her friend and they kiss at the end of it. That could be considered shoujo-ai, in my opinion.
---
So, should Love Hina be listed? It was listed some time back, if I recall.60.49.45.145 00:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Love Hina's a toss-up, there is definately the Mutsumi x Naru kiss. And Mutsumi is simply a hot bi woman. :P Kyaa the Catlord 05:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Which is why it is not under "where yuri is central to the story". I always felt that Akamatsu missed the boat on this, he had several chances to explore yuri subplots and never really did. :P (I think he would now if he could rewrite the manga) Kyaa the Catlord 12:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanations 

message: If a bunch of people don't come in saying that they think of yuri and shoujo ai the same way (for either parsing of that sentence), this article should probably be merged with Shojo ai -- or, rather, shojo ai should probably be merged with this article. Then we can retitle it "Yuri and Shojo ai", set up redirects as appropriate, and get a real disambiguation page up so you don't have to come here to find Yuri (singer). --Aponar Kestrel 06:34, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)
: I don't understand the above, but whatever problem it was referring to has probably been aggravated by assigning the title [[Yuri {singer)]] to a Korean singer instead of the previous Mexican one. Yuri (singer) will soon be a Dab between the two former topics.--Jerzy•t 07:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with shojo ai 

message: I added Bleach to the list, figuring Inoue x Tatsuki is pretty canon.
I also added Air Master, against my better judgement. It does contain shoujo-ai.
Also, has anyone seen this?
http://www.shoujoai.com/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=29037;pg=1
Personally I think it would be a good idea to incorporate this into Wikipedia. It could be changed so that personal opiunions listed next to series were changed to more  objective statements like 'contains rape' or 'contains underage sexual content'.
This would naturally be moved to its own Wikipedia page, probably 'List of Shoujoai (Lesbian-related??) anime'.
Please respond if you agree that the above is a good idea.
--Zaorish 20:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of Orihime x Tatsuki, there are a couple of other characters who show up later in the show that definately scream lesbian. Kyaa the Catlord 05:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions to shojoai list/Another idea 

message: "Young same-sex affection experimentation is considered natural in real-life Japan"
: maybe not really, extremely rare, or author's misunderstanding of other cultures? In either case, it's not really clear what the author means. --69.212.101.139 29 June 2005 20:10 (UTC)
Contributor's fantasy. Clearly.
TAtom
I agree "On the other hand, homosexuals who do marry, even if they are out, even if they have same sex lovers, are not discriminated in any way." also seems completly impossible. I have personally experienced native japanese reacting with extreme revulsion to any mention or perception of something as "gay" 
128.62.213.215 05:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's a pretty dubious statement. --Masamage 05:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Real life," or contributor's fantasy? 

message: "Unlike YamiBou and Kannazuki no Miko, Marimite makes no attempt whatsoever to reach out to the male demographic..."
: This article (http://www.geocities.com/marianaisho/articles/faninterview.htm), containing an interview with a (presumably well-informed) Japanese person, claims the series in its animated form is aimed squarely at the otaku culture. She points out this is the *male* otaku culture. This does seem a bit far-fetched, and would to anyone I know who'd watched the thing, but I thought it was quite interesting. Having no mad wikipedian skillz myself, I didn't add anything or take anything away in the article. *slinks away* --Anon
:I've editted this statement out. It is loaded with personal opinion and POV. Marimite doesn't need mecha to lure boys to watch it, it simply doesn't need mecha or fanservice to do so. Kyaa the Catlord 20:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even the concept of a series being targeted towards a gender rather than people who share a mentality is rather silly. I know guys who love MariMite for the emotions, and girls who love Gundam for the explosions. Debating which gender an anime is 'for' should probably be left to a message board rather than put in an encyclopedia. DamienReave 11:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor Quibble 

message: Should you or your child encounter hentai on the internets, zip up and then contact teh mounties! We wanna see too! That was good for a laugh. Kyaa the Catlord 19:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Royal Canadian Mounties -- patrolling the Internets since 1873!  I think we can safely file this under Moral panic. -- Miwa 20:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I've not even read past the first paragraph.. not only is it inaccurate and misleading (I mean.. Japan is the sole source of "hentai manga" so you'd expect it to be the world leader...) but they can't even spell 'pixelation'. Shiroi Hane 20:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This reminds me of the crusade against role-playing games back in the 1980s.  Misleading, skewed information and a failure to understand the basic concepts being crusaded against.  Sadly, this also has xenophobia tacked on as well. -- Miwa 16:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

text: The "Dangers of Hentai Fact Sheet" was pulled by the Mounties due to the issues brought up above. Silly Canadians. :D Kyaa the Catlord 08:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See also Talk:Anime#National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre Issue. Shiroi Hane 18:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hentai Fact Sheet 

message: Would someone care to clean up the strawberry panic mess at the end? It doesn't link to the comic's article and summarizes the show in a way that goes completely off topic. (What with its emo beautiful people, dominance and enthralled submission, and lust/violence undertones, I'd almost rather classify it as yaoi in a female package...)  -- ~
:It read like an advert for the show, a very poorly written one. I refactored it. Kyaa the Catlord 11:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strawberry Panic 

message: Wouldn't this be better as a category? Anyone know how to make one? :P Kyaa the Catlord 18:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe you just add a category link to the bottom of the article. You can also give the category itself a short introduction, as well as making it a subcategory to other categories in the same fashion. For instance at the bottom if this article there is a link Category:Anime and manga terminology. Shinobu 23:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe there is a category:yuri yet. We need to make one. :P Kyaa the Catlord 04:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Go ahead. By the way, a similar situation exists on Shounen and Seinen, but take it to the talkpages first. Shinobu 08:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The big list 

message: I've copied the link to Help talk:Japanese.
The rest of the section contained not enough info to keep for now, mainly stating that the r is an l. To my ear the Japanese r doensn't resemble an l at all, but okay, IANAL.
we already have a help page on Japanese romanization and pronunciation linked. Because there an integral overview can be provided, no oversimplification is necessary, so I think that's the better option. Shinobu 07:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: The "Non-hentai anime and manga with stories that include some yuri or shoujo-ai" section is rather misleading.  Mixed in among the shows with actual explicit yuri/shoujo-ai relationships, there are shows like He Is My Master which simply happen to have a lesbian character (who doesn't end up in a relationship with anyone), and then there are shows like Futari wa Pretty Cure that are merely frequently interpreted as having possible shoujo-ai subtexts in what are only ever explicitly shown to be friendships.  I'm all for listing shows that are commonly associated with yuri, but that shouldn't be the same list as the shows that actually have it, and the shows that merely have a lesbian among the cast (with no hint of them being in a relationship with anyone) don't belong in this article at all.  --Andrusi 22:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explicit vs. interpreted yuri 

message: There are several statements that are presented as fact that are opinion regarding the subtext of yuri. Currently 'magazine' is a placeholder which should be replaced by a source to fix POV sections. Without this, these statements are the authors POV and should be removed. Examples: 'the plot is mostly subtext' (essentially unproveable) and that two characters are 'obviously in a lesbian relationship'. Antonrojo 12:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for sources 

message: Heck, we even have a kiss scene!! Chloe has romantic feeling towards Kirika, and she's a main character and also the counterpart of Mireille in the triangle formed by Noir aspirants. Her feelings for Kirika have a main role in the story as a driver for her to become an assassin and one of the two "hands" of the Soldats. And also her jealousy is the cause of her end, and that situation is what lead us to the resolution of the story. Defenitly a main role here! Like in .hack//SIGN, shoujo-ai is present in this series as a literary device, not as a genre. Kazu-kun 23:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noir (there's shoujo-ai in Noir?) SPOILERS 

message: Why is this so?
I don't think Mai HiME & Mai Otome belong in the 'central to the story' list.
But I was wondering about the opinions of others.
In any case shows should appear in only 1 of the two lists.
::Yeah, Mai HiME and Mai Otome appear in both lists. That obviously shouldn't happen, but I haven't watched those series, thus I can't help to decide which list they belong to. Can someone give a second opinion here, please? Kazu-kun 03:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved them so that they only appear in the central to the story list. Otome is totally a yuri/maid lovefest. Hime revolves around relationships, two of which are yuririffic. (Its arguable that there is a third relationship, but I don't like Mai x Mikoto) Kyaa the Catlord 06:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mai HiME & Mai Otome appearing in both 'central to the story' & 'includes' lists 

message: This article sufferes from a large amount of OR and a distinct lack of sourcing. It really needs a complete rewrite. Adding nonsense, like the "magazines" fiasco, doesn't help. I've been toying with rewriting it myself, but November is right around the corner and I have a novel to complete. :) Anyone else interested? Kyaa the Catlord 08:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outstanding Issues 

message: I've added 12 Days to the list of manga with yuri/shoujo ai content. I was curious though, since Steady Beat isn't listed, do we not include OEL manga that contains yuri/sa content? Kyaa the Catlord 14:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  OEL question 

message: If there can be an article called Shōnen-ai, why can't there be an article called Shōjo-ai? It would be more fair if there was both articles called Shōnen-ai and Shōjo-ai. 82.41.66.173 07:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, rather than that, I believe that the Shōnen-ai and Yaoi articles should be merged into one, since both of them practically talk about the same. (Alexlayer 08:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds about right. --Masamage 19:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title question 

message: Well, the latest discussion had very good results, as now the whole article have sources and references.
Because of that, I assume that it is safe to remove the Not Verified Tag, don't you think?
If nobody contradict this, I'll do it in short time. If someone is completely sure that I'm right, s/he can do it by him/herself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alexlayer (talk • contribs) 22:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I think at twelve references we're looking pretty good. Anything left over should just get a  tag of its own so that we know exactly what needs sourcing. --Masamage 05:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Since I placed the tag, it makes sense that I remove it. Kyaa the Catlord 07:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Verified Tag 

message: I finally just removed Futari wa Pretty Cure myself.  I was hoping someone would come along who would be able to go over the entire list instead of just removing one that I happened to know was wrong.  Futari wa Pretty Cure features girls who are friends.  Friends.  They are presented in a context which many people choose to interpret as shoujo-ai, but this is not official in any way whatsoever.
I emphatically request that everyone else take a look at the "Non-hentai anime  and manga with stories that include some yuri or shoujo-ai" section, check for shows you're familiar with, and remove any that don't belong there.
Also, the comment is simply evidence that I need to stop editing in the morning.  --Andrusi 16:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still wishful thinking 

message: I added it because of the kiss between Yuina - the main character - and Seraph, one of the angels. Besides, there was Seraph's former lover that was also a girl. Hacchan 00:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Angel Dust 

message: Technically the term isn't used in Japan, like... at all. At least not in the same or similar sense as shonen-ai. The page is written in the sense that it is. Someone fix?
::You should read more carefully. The article makes it pretty clear that shoujo-ai is a Western term, and it's not used in Japan:
::"The term shōjo-ai (少女愛) is scarcely, if ever, used with these meanings in Japan; instead, the terms shōnen-ai and shōjo-ai tend to denote pedophilia."
::As you see, the term shonen-ai is not used either. Japaneses just call it "Boys Love". Kazu-kun 03:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the term "Shojo-Ai" 

message: Wow what can I say.  Now I have no concept of this topic whatsoever, so this will be based on nothing.  But in the picture the lady in purple hair looks like she's supposed to be old or something.  Now a more representative picture may be of younger subjects.  Someone needs to look into this, and don't forget to invite me.  75.4.231.136 08:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest that you read the article linked in the caption for the image.  Despite the purple-haired girl's appearance, they're both in high school, and a famous yuri couple to boot. -Malkinann 23:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture!! 

message: Such lists are better served by Categories - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Yuri .  I've taken the liberty to add Strikethroughs to any item already categorized.  Or, the list can be moved into a separate article. KyuuA4 18:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The cat is fine only when yuri is explicit, but yuri itself is more complex than that. This article talk about this, and the lists help to illustrate how yuri can be a central element (which doesn't mean explicit) in a story or just a meaningless faservice. When yuri is just a minor element or fanservice, is not notable enough to be mentioned in the article of such anime (the same goes with the cat), but here, where the article itself talk about all the aspects of yuri, the lists become notable. Kazu-kun 20:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Yuri Series 

message: Okay, so how exactly does Ojamajo Doremi contain yuri? Feiriri 23:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ojamajo Doremi 

message: Sakura Rin(number) has taken it upon herself to edit war over the way the lists are presented, deeming the longer lists first, shorter later to be hell if I know. Of all the spurious things to edit war over... Can we come to a consensus about how we wish these to be presented? Would we like to go back to "how it always was" (aka the previous unspoken consensus) or is there consensus to change it in this manner? Numerous editors other than I have reverted her changes, but she continues to unilaterally change the way these are displayed. Kyaa the Catlord 06:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not the one who pops up every three day and spontaneously changes the layout of the list for no apparent reason despite being reverted EVERY time you do so. Kyaa the Catlord 07:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Its often enough that you should have caught on that your change needed discussion prior to being implemented. It may look "neat" but it goes contrary to how most people think. Long first, short second just "makes sense". (Mind you, some of the other lists I've seen just are bloody messes.) Kyaa the Catlord 07:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Pardon me as I roll my eyes. I apologize profusely for falsely suggesting that a user with a username that is predominately female happened to be a woman, not that there is anything wrong with being a woman. Nor did I "lambast you on "female" grounds", and I'd love to see your rationale for that claim cause I don't see it. Seriously, quit playing the victim and explain why you think that the longer columns should come last and stop trying to make this into something about you. Kyaa the Catlord 08:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: tl;dr Kyaa the Catlord 10:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The List 

message: :Image:Sei & Shiori.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 02:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Sei & Shiori.jpg 

message: Clearly, there's going to be constant disagreement over whether titles belong on the lists -- especially the incidentals, where sometimes you have to squint with your yuri goggles on to see the subtext. The only way to reduce that is justifications: citations for everything on there. In other words, prove it.
Since inlines for every single one is going to swell the References to unholy size, I have a suggestion: how about general categories. That is, every series containing an openly lesbian character would be tagged  (except for one At least one character is openly lesbian.). And another for "At least one female character desires or deeply admires another female character," and so on. In other words, use footnotes as key coding.
We should probably hash out what the general bins are before applying them. —Quasirandom 02:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not when the editor who deleted content didn't give a proper reason; just deleting is not a challenge, it's plain vandalism. Editors must use the talk page, or at least leave a proper edit summary, when deleting content. This is true for any article, without exception. EDIT: I do think we should clean up the second list a bit; "yuri" in some of those series is too minor (or even inexistant).Kazu-kun 03:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, an edit summary should be given as a couretsy, but I'd argue that while deleting the whole list is clearly vandalism, removing selected titles shows specific, thoughtful disagreement with including them. Either way, anything mentioned on the talk page above is obviously a challenge, even if defended successfully, and so needs sourcing. —Quasirandom 14:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In any case, we need to do some cleaning first. After that we can discuss about reference (your idea about using footnotes as key coding seems interesting).Kazu-kun 01:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citing the lists 

message: Should we extend the "shoujo-ai/yuri" content to anime/manga-like video games or do you want to keep it only to anime series and mangas ? WebJiCi 23:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Game-related content ? 

message: What I would like to see is this:
* Replace the second list with a prose account discussing the uses of yuri-content-in-passing, which uses a few of these as examples. These would need to be sourced that someone(s) have seen yuri in it.
* Keep the first list, but source each item. I say this, and not the category, because in an article they can be sourced. Whether the list belongs here or in a separate article, I'd like to shelve for now (though I note that the guideline prefers, rather than requires, prose over lists), because if it remains in the article sourcing is more likely to happen. And as part of forcing it, I'd like to tag each title with , to force editors (myself included) to go through each one and prove-it-or-lose-it within the reasonable timeframe that dated tags give.
In fact, I'll make that my specific proposal. All in favor or opposed or with alternatives, have at it. —Quasirandom 03:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still say that the list in the article should only serve as an example, which is pretty much already covered. If you want additional examples, it shouldn't be as huge as these lists. These lists are not meant to document every single anime with a Yuri element. We simply don't do that with such articles. If the list is doing something the categories can't do, then lets make the list a standalone list, List of anime with yuri elements, or something to that extent. -- Ned Scott 04:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (Aside) It's not just anime, but manga, light novels, and games too.--十八 04:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: RE #2: If we want every series to source its "yuri-ness", then it's possible to require individual articles to source it, either in the text itself or the "yuri" being in the genre section of the infobox. Therefore, any article in the Yuri category must be sourced as such or at least be really damn obvious (Strawberry Panic!).--SeizureDog 07:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Heh. I was going to comment that, for many in the first list, it's possible to snag a reference from the series article -- at least from the better ones. —Quasirandom 16:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

text: A solution I would favor: Move both lists to the talk page, giving people a chance to support the material with reliable sources. As sources are found, start a prose section in the article on particularly prominent examples of yuri. Once about ten examples of source-supported yuri are found, start a separate list, and link to the list from the prose section. Nick Graves 16:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: Can you please add this citation  to the text "White lilies are sometimes used as floral motifs in yuri anime and manga."  Thankyou. -Malkinann (talk) 02:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That source doesn't mention "white lilies" or the word "motif". In any case, the article was just protected due to edit warring; things like this can wait until it is unprotected. Everyone should focus on resolving the dispute that led to protection. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's ok to wait until the article is unprotected. On the other hand, I want to address your concern about this source; while it does not state the words "white" o "motif", it clearly says that "lilies" have been used to symbolize same-sex love in manga, which it's clouse enough. We may need to remove the word "white" and do some re-wording, but overall the reference seems to work just fine.Kazu-kun (talk) 05:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lilies as floral motifs in yuri 

message: Is this category really needed?  Most of the articles in it are already part of :Category:Yuri.  It seems repetitive to me, so I think that category should be deleted.  MayumiTsuji (talk) 22:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I thik so too. BTW, there's a CFD for a related cat created by the same user: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_January_13#Category:Sh.C5.8Djo-ai.2FSh.C5.8Dnen-ai_as_a_minor_theme. Kazu-kun (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Shōjo-ai]] 

message: Yaoi and Shōnen ai are two different pages. Shōjo-ai links straight to Yuri. Shouldn't they both be done the same way? TigressofIndia (talk) 02:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because the term "shōjo-ai" isn't used by the Japanese. I would suggest you read this article first before commenting further if you haven't already done so. And besides, seeing how short shōnen ai is, it wouldn't hurt to have it merged into the larger yaoi article.--十八 02:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yuri is yuri. yeah there is some obvious very sexual stuff out there. But most people don't consider that yuri, and just put it in with hentai. I mean come on, nearly ever hentai probably has some kind of girl on girl scene, but that doesnt make it yuri.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 14:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Juhachi, the yaoi article isn't in very good shape, despite the (comparitive) plethora of reliable sources.  Merging shonen-ai in might be a good idea, but yaoi needs a thorough scrubbing up first. -Malkinann (talk) 01:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yuri vs Shōjo-ai