Talk:Batman/Archive 3

message: This archive page covers approximately the dates between December 2005 and March 2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are
replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive04. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu 14:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

message: I give you: The batmojometer.
Some points i forgot there:
::*Flamebird is Batgirl I's alter ego, Betty Kane.
::*Bob Kane said: Kathy Kane is based on his wife 
::*Bob Kane's widow's name is Elizabeth Sanders Kane, like Batwoman's niece Batgirl I a.k.a. Flamebird a.k.a. Betty Kane.
::*Wonder Woman's nemesis Cheetah on Justice League , would be "Bat-mojo in action", 2nd. base at least with the B-man... The good girl, and also the bad one, don't fight ladies, there is enough B-man for all of you!
::*There are 12 female Bat-villains only from the 60's TV series.
::*I remember various of them got close with Batman...but I ignore the exact datum...Someone?
::*I also ignore how many and how close did good bat-chiks got with Batman on that same show.
...And then, some mistakes :S
::*I ment the same with "major action" and "major baby-making action"...It's just the silly part of my table, anyways.
::*By importance i ment how famous do I consider the character from what I know so far.
::*Also Source is a typo, I ment Sources
The sources are right there, just ot prove my point: every 2 years and 5 monts a hot bat-chick is created. I don't think anyone that writes here is thinking so. Although with this table, Batman makes James Bond and Sam Malone look like rookies, hhis is not to prove that batman is not gay; but to prove that the Batwoman & Batgirl point is meaningless.
We also have the fact that neither allmighthy editor Jack Schiff nor Bob Kane backed that point. So we have meaningless and Unoficial. 
So, from my point of view, that makes two options: either aloud me to write something like "editor Jack Schiff nor Bob Kane backed that point" and "in average, every 2 years and 5 monts a Batman romantic interest have been created since the begining" that with help of a friend i can work out; or you could take down the Batwoman and Batgirl line and move on...But that's just my point of view, if you don't like you can print the whole thing roll the papper and shov...No, just kiding. hahah. If you don't like it you can just laugh abuot my idiotic table. The numbers and names are real, the other is just my interpretations (pointless to argue about wich one is more famous or closer to batman).--T for Trouble-maker 05:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: WOW.  I can't believe this.  Maybe... maybe Batman's not gay after all? Dyslexic agnostic 05:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why didn't you put Superman in this chart? World's Finest #289, March 1983, "The Kryll Way of Dying" by Doug Moench & Adrian Gonzales. Gayest issue ever, with major bat-mojo.  Dyslexic agnostic 05:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ... ¬¬ .. I...hate... you...so..much... --T for Trouble-maker 06:28, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ladies and Gentlemen 

message: Moving on to new and more important things... Superman is now 35kb, while Batman is 49 kb.  Further ideas on reduction? Dyslexic agnostic 08:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Size

message: This doesn't quite sound right...
"Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale more recently put their miniseries Batman: The Long Halloween and Batman: Dark Victory in the time period following Year One"
Does anyone know how to pluralize miniseries? Simnel 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's like "fish", the same, just understood as plural from the context. Dyslexic agnostic 16:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Turns out I made the question irrelevant :-) Go me. Simnel 16:13, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper plural of miniseries? 

message: Made the follow changes to the last few paragraphs of this section, starting with the discussion of Dark Knight Returns. My main focus was trying to bring everything back around from 'Telling what happened in the stories' to discussing how they impacted the character.:
*The section spent too much time talking about Comissioner Gordon. Added a link and cut down the text.
*Everything I've heard from the Batman: TAS team -- their commentary and interviews -- suggests that they considered the Tim Burton movie their direct precursor, as far as tone goes. Changed to reflect that.
*Removed a whole bunch of mentions of other stories set in the Year One continuity. Most of it is mentioned in the Year One article. Instead, talk about the fact that 'Year One' books have practically become a subgenere.
*Removed the suggestion that the Batman Begins character was directly taken from Year One. While there are similarities, I don't see it and nothing I've seen or read suggests it, except the fact that Batman Begins is set in... well, his first active year. Not saying it's not the case that the Year One Batman IS the Begins Batman, but the costume, origin, training, etc are all different; please provide a reference before reinserting. 
*The Killing Joke paragraph didn't really belong there. (I put it in, I think; I'm learning :-) Again, it's got its own article, and we really need to focus on how these books contributed to Batman's development, not what happened in them.
*Removed the statement that zero hour retcons met with criticism from fans. I don't think there's a single retcon in comics history that wouldn't get that note.
*Changed the Jason Todd statement as well as Zero Hour to a bullet point list of post-Dark Knight important changes. I'm NOT HAPPY with the way it turned out; anyone got a better idea?
*Added in Robin IV's death and Batman's part in Infinite Crisis
I think that's it. Whew! Simnel 16:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work. I agree with the Zero Hour criticism removal... better left for the Zero Hour page itself. Dyslexic agnostic 16:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing 'Evolution of the Concept' 

message: The second paragraph of Powers and Abilities needs serious pruning; it goes into way too much detail about infinite crisis/identity crisis. Also, can anyone source Batman actually having an eidetic memory? The eidetic memory PAGE suggests it comes from the novel Batman: The Stone King; I've never read an actual comic that suggests batman has anything except an amazingly, amazingly good memory. Simnel 16:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't remember where the reference was made, but Alfred did say (or suggest) the eidetic memory at least once. --Pentasyllabic 19:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Powers and Abilities 

message: Okay, one more and I'm calling it a night. This section (like MUCH of this article) can use a serious revamp. Here are some questions that need to be answered:
*Why is Nightwing 'previous'? I know the current nightwing is having some issues, but has he broken off ties with Batman entirely? Same question about Catwoman.
*Should Azrael and Robins II and IV get deceased tags?
*Barbara Gordon should probably be changed to Oracle, and should definitely be moved to Previous. Jim Gordon should also go in Previous. 
*Is Superman really an affiliation? Hmm, I guess if they get a team-up book, the answer is yes.
*Aliases: The World's Greatest Detective isn't really an alias. Also, I've never heard 'The Creature of the Night' -- anyone got a source? I think Dark Knight should technically be The Dark Knight Detective... which I've never thought sounded quite as good. Also, how about "(With Robin) The Dynamic Duo"?
*Does Alfred belong under relatives? 
*I don't have a copy of Son of the Demon, where Batman actually marries and has a kid by Talia... does anyone know the details there? I know that's out of continuity, but so are Terry, Ibn, and Helena...
*Hmm... Earth-Two is by definition pre-crisis, so I think we can change all instances of "Pre-crisis Earth Two to just Earth-Two. 
*Powers -- this can be edited down significantly.
:Simnel 16:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, made the changes above. I'd still like an answer from someone who's up to date on the current comics as to why Nightwing is listed as previous. Powers still runs longer than it needs to. Also, does it make sense to remove ALL references to the Earth-2 Batman and start a Batman (Earth-2) page? Or is it a neccessary part of the modern character? Simnel 16:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statistics 

message: Well, I guess I lied when I said the last one was it for the night :-) Origin also needs serious revision. Specifically, about six different origin stories are all being mixed and matched; I think we should EITHER:
A. Stick entirely to the current cannonical origin, and eliminate everything NOT in the comics;
B. Include separate sections on varying origin stories, including Begins, Year One, Batman: TAS, etc.
C. Unravel the current one a bit, making sure it is very clear what story comes from where.
I'm in favor of A or B; either way, a note at the top saying what we've done is DEFINITELY in order there.Simnel 16:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok...good work, congratulations! But, could you please ilustrate me about Year One?... (it hurts to say I'm not being sarcatic) maybe i'm thinking of something else, but last time I checked Batman: Year One, was part of the cannon. I still don't get my Infinite Crisis books, did they went that far?...Uh, are you saying it because Zero Hour changed Catwoman's past and now she was never a working girl? The whole year one is not cannon because of that? I never thought about it that way. I only erased the Catwoman part from my mind--T for Trouble-maker 19:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On unravelling the origins, I agree with option B.  Keep in mind that we are missing out on the whole Earth-Two Batman storyline (married, retired, had child, got cancer, was killed), and I would ask you to compare the way this is treated in Superman.  I found this  on the subject so far. Dyslexic agnostic 00:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: Step by step, working through this. What I'm trying to do, as much as possible, is keep this page about the character, not about the stories. It's fine illustrating a point with an example, but there are too many "what happened in this story" moments, taking up room and distracting from the main point. Simnel 16:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's important to keep the point that Bruce Wayne, the persona, is not the real Bruce Wayne. I don't recall the issue, but there is a statement he makes saying that Bruce Wayne died with his parents, and that all that was left was Batman, and that's who he truly was. I could dig it up for you if you need a source, but I'm confident in the factuality and think it should play an important part in this area. Eluchil 09:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dual Identities 

message: It would be great to have the following pictures for the new origin sections:
Either the "Criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot" panel or the one at the end of the page, the first picture of Batman in his costume, for the Golden Age section.
One of Frank Miller's Year One covers for the Current Continuity section. 
:Simnel 18:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: I've looked at the history of this page, and the contributions from anonymous editors seem substantial.  I have not found any effort to discuss the recent versions that have been reverted.  Semi-protection is a drastic step.  I'm hoping some dialogue can happen first, and it won't be necessary. -- Samuel Wantman 11:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that this is what is happening. An anonymous user makes bad changes and doesn't put anything on the talk page. One of the regular editors or someone passing by reverts. Most of the time, the regular editors will either flag the revert with an invitation to the talk page, or mention someone on the talk page itself. The next day, those changes are resubmitted from a different IP address. In the end, it's just an irritation; but it's happening over and over again, people are losing work because legitimate updates are getting stamped out, and maybe this is just me... but it's a fatiguing issue. It makes me want to stop bothering. We've had some VERY productive discussions here, and resolved some difficult issues to the betterment of the page... but if people don't want to talk, there's no real way to make them. Simnel 16:03, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the vandalism is anything on the scale to merit semi-protection either.  We have to remember Wikipedia is a collaborative effort.  I can't see anyone removing the material and placing it here for discussion, which is the preferred step to take.  Pointing someone to the talk page is all well and good, but if the reverter isn't discussing their actions here there's no real onus on the anon to.  Don't get discouraged though, there's a lot of good work here. Hiding  talk 18:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I, as well as most of the people here on a regular basis, seem to be discussing changes made on this page, and will at least note why a revert is happening on the history page. Simnel 16:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are quite correct, I apologise.  Hiding  talk 17:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Nothing at all to apologize about. On a related note, I am starting to get really, really irritated at whoever keeps reinserting the text which begins 'Actually, Batman is not a schizophrenic...' I guess I'll leave a message at the IP addess, but it keeps changing... Simnel 01:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Simnel, I recently sent you a message; please reply. Why is it that "Bartgirl I/Oracle" under "previous alliances" has been changed to simply "Oracle", while we allow for Dick Grayson to be listed as "Robin I/Nightwing"? --Ace ETP 19:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because I got bored of fighting you with these changes, and said 'screw it' after I changed Oracle back. I'm glad you're finally talking about it. Please read my earlier comments about why I made the change in the first place, and comment on that. Simnel 16:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm. Okay, my bad... it looks like my 'earlier comments' are not on this page. So -- to recap. My main point was that we don't need to list every possible bit of information about these characters, especially when we're providing a link to their own page. I think we've all done a great job of cleaning up this article in the last few weeks, but the size is creeping back up, and the second screen -- where all you see is the stats panel on the right and the TOC on the left, with no text or other information in the middle -- looks utterly, utterly awful. We need to pare everything down as much as possible, and I don't think "Batgirl I/Oracle" or "Robin I/Nightwing" provides additional useful information to a reader, especially when we give more detail both on this page and on Nightwing's own page. I mean, if he had been affiliated with Kitty Pride, would you want to write "Ariel/Sprite/Shadowcat"? If anything, I personally would prefer to use "Civilian name (Superhero name)" rather than two different superhero identities. Counterargument? What's everyone else's opinion? Simnel 01:37, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for semi-protection 

message: It occurs to me when looking at a recent anonymous edit that the article should be written in past tense as much as possible, and should avoid the use of words like 'recently'. I'm going to try to clean it up a bit, and we should all keep it in mind going forward. Simnel 16:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the contrary applies, see Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles, where the following guidance is given: Works of fiction are generally considered to exist in a kind of perpetual present tense, regardless of when the fictional action is supposed to take place relative to "now". Write about fiction using the present tense, not the past tense. To avoid the term recently, see Wikipedia:Avoid statements that will date quickly.  I think the best option to take is to specify an issue, which would allow for better dating.  Hiding  talk 18:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past tense 

message: I cut this text... 
In Teen Titans?
In the episode of Teen Titans, "Haunted", a shot of Robin taking an oath to be Robin is seen.  This would make Batman the only non-Titan hero that has appeared on the show.
It really didn't fit in. Simnel 23:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teen Titans 

message: I took out this sentence...
Spoofs of the character include Dynomutt, Radioactive Man, Darkwing Duck, Batfink, Rat Pfink, and Saturday Night Live's short films of the Ambiguously Gay Duo.
Dynomutt is not a Batman spoof. Radioactive Man is not either. Nobody has ever heard of Rat Pfink a Boo Boo. Batfink is something Joker calls Batman; I guess it was also a cartoon. The Ambigously Gay Duo does belong here... but it might go better in the homosexual section. What would go GREAT instead of this would be a discussion of some of the high-quality fan projects out there, like Sandy Collura's Batman: Dead End, World's Finest... I think someone does a Batman radio (web radio) drama... some of that stuff, that really shows how the character has seeped into the culture.
I also changed a 2nd Marvel reference to an Image reference; seemed like a better way to do things. What might go better is a paragraph talking about how Batman is now a common 'type' for comic books and many companies have made characters which draw in at least some way on him. Simnel 23:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Simnel, in the above context, see Batman: Dead End and World's Finest (movie) (the latter I created in December).  Love those, and Grayson too!  Dyslexic agnostic 10:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other media 

message: I saw that 86.41.196.255 added Terry McGuinness from Batman Beyond as a relative. Not knowing if out-of-continuity offspring should be shown here, I searched for his other son, Ibn al Xu'ffasch from the Kingdom Come universe. He is listed as Ra's al Ghul's grandson (with the out-of-continuity notation), so I included him here as well. Couldn't find debate on the topic, but it seems to be common to note such relatives elsewhere. ZZ 13:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I guess that's why I couldn't find an existing page for Terry. Good catch. ZZ 15:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no use in discussing the subject in "Batman article". Let's make it general. Please add your opinions in here: WikiProject Comics Discussion: Elseworlds in the SHB. Lesfer 14:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relatives / Children in and out of Continuity 

message: This is a great looking article why can't this be done for a Canadian article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.150.48.217 (talk • contribs) .
Because Canada is...nah, too easy. :P Actually, there's nothing stopping the Canadian version, or any other version of the arcticle to be as well groomed or polished. You just have to do it, basically. Eluchil 00:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  great looking article  

message: Apostrophe -- I reverted your change, not because I thought it was bad but because I wasn't quite sure why you did it, and wanted a chance to talk about it. I personally don't like just linking to 'Batman family' as much; I think it takes some of the most key information out of the superhero box and redirects the user to a page that isn't as good. More than that, the summary itself doesn't have a whole lot of value; what I mean is, if we listed "Robin I, Robin II, Robin III, Robin IV" reducing that to something like 'various Robins' keeps the spirit there. 'Batman Family' gives the reader no information unless they decide to follow the link and read the article. Just as importantly, the superherobox is already an oversized monstrosity. Reducing it by two lines makes no noticeable difference. Anyway, like I said, wanted to talk about it; what made you decide to make the change? Simnel 09:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because I felt that it was simply too cluttered, and that and possible summarization would be preferred. I don't have a strong opinion either way; the only things I particularly care for are the absurd Roman numberals (they are never called "Robin III" or any other nonsense like that in the fiction) and grammar-violating capitalization of "the". As it seems that you aren't concerned about those, I'll change them while leaving the alliances part alone. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 21:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always disliked 'Robin III'... I mean, come on, even if you were talking to someone and SAID Robin III, it doesn't clear anything up, you still need to mention that you're talking about Tim Drake. It's made even MORE absurd when talking about someone whose famous incarnation is not the first one. (Azrael II) I heartily support this, although group decision definitely has a role here. Simnel 00:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman Family 

message: The first screen of the page, to me, looks terrible. On my monitor, I see 1/4 of the SHB -- including a picture which is too large to fully show -- 1/3 of the table of contents, two redirect notices, white space between the TOC and the SHB, and two paragraphs of text. Here are some suggestions:
*Kill the 'The Batman' redirect notice. If that means we set The Batman to go to the cartoon, fine. I can't imagine ANYONE... EVER... searching for 'THE BATMAN' when looking for this page. Even when something requires the definite article, people will leave it off -- if I was searching for Barnum & Bailey, that's what I'd look for, not The Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus. 
EDIT: I clipped this:
:"The Batman" redirects here; for the TV series, see The Batman (TV series).
because the disambiguation page, referenced immediately above, already contains this link.
*Does the TOC auto-format? I already changed two section titles to shrink the TOC width; there should be room now to put text in that whitespace. Alternately, do we have the ability to move it below the SHB?
*Slightly crop the picture, shrink it, or just find a (just stating a pov here) better one. Perhaps one by an artist familiar with human anatomy. 
*If philanthropist is going to link, so should playboy and industrialist. (actually, I just did this.) Playboy should (for obvious reasons; do the search) link to the Wiktionary article rather than Wikipedia. 
I'm out of ideas here. If anyone's got anything to add, please do. If you decide to make any changes, just talk about them here. Simnel 10:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I <b>HATE</b> the first screen 

message: I requested semi-protection again, guys. Hopefully, we'll see less vandalism in the future. If I never see "Batman is actually not a schizophrenic" again, it'll be worth it :-) Simnel 01:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have blocked the most recent purveyor of "Batman is actually not a schizophrenic" for a week.  I will block any anon who makes the same revert without warning.  Let me know when it happens again.  The blocks will get progressively longer.  I think the problems are related to a single person, and for this reason, I don't think semi-protection is the best route.  If I am not around to block the next incarnation, mention the problem at WP:ANI and you should find an admin willing to block on the spot.  Point them to my comments here.   These are links to the users who have been blocked so far... 
*User talk:69.3.101.54 blocked for 24 hours on 23 Jan
*User talk:69.3.101.203  blocked for 48hours on 27 Jan
*User talk:65.113.199.226 blocked for a week, just now. -- Samuel Wantman 07:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: Not that I'm doubting either -- I had never heard of the Spider before this, but he certainly seems to be a Batman precursor -- but does anyone have references to Doc Savage or the Spider as inspirations to Kane/Finger? I've only heard Doc come up as a Superman forerunner before. Simnel 14:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doc Savage and the Spider 

message: When was the first paragraph changed from 'Batman is a superhero' to the significantly less specific 'batman is a fictional character'? And why? Simnel 09:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't say when, but it might have something to do with the text at Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Check your fiction.  The guidance we settled upon at Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/exemplars was {Name of character} ({birth name}) is a {Name of comic book company} {superhero/villain/team}. Created by {creator(s)}, he/she/they first appeared in {Name of series} #{issue number} ({year}).  Hiding  talk 21:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Superhero/Hero/Fictional Character 

message: I see a lot of people above arguing on the strength of their opinion.  Let's remember that our interpretation isn't of value here, that's original research.  What we've got to do is build from sources.  We've got one source which describes Batman, at least as portrayed in the recent movie, as an anti-hero.  Anymore reliable sources arguing either way?  This might be an issue best debated in the article, or within a sub article, referencing good sources.  In fact, if we could get some good referencing on different interpretations of the character, we could break out a sub article: Batman: Interpretations of the character or some such name.  The anti-hero is too disputable for the article to be categorised definitively as an anti-hero, per Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category. Hiding  talk 10:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The DC Comics Guide to Writing Comics specifically uses Batman from the Batman: Knightfall to illustrate the concept of the anti-hero.  Look at Google Book Search, at both the page I linked and the next one.  --DDG 23:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes...using Jean-Paul Valley's Batman, not Bruce Wayne's Batman.  There is a difference. - The Dragonmaster 23:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: It's not about our opinions

message: Maybe it is time to summarize this article, I think it could be more informative. I mean I agree Azrael killing avatoir, or Bane broking batman's back, Quakemaster, or Lex Luthor rebuilding GC are not just details. Sub-Articles are becoming necesary, that was done on Superman's page. Check Wikipedia:Summary Style--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 03:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sub-articles