Talk:Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)/Archive 1

message: Wouldn't a title "Expulsion of Germans" be more appropriate than "German expulsions"?
:Yes.  "German expulsions" is ambiguous, since it could also mean expulsion by Germany. ☮ Eclecticology 11:13, 2004 Feb 29 (UTC)
Could some body move this page to "Expulsion of Germans after World War II"
The general remark: if this includes expulsion after WW2, the number of expelled was not higher then 4-5 milions. If the number of expelled is put at 15 milions, it also includes evacuation, escape, emigration etc. Cautious 09:46, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Page title

message: The following is copied from Talk:Gdansk:
=== Danzigers population losses ===
With regard to the number of citizens of Danzig bwho were killed in the war and its aftermath, my estimate of which was removed by 'cautious,' I offer the following excerpt from an academic paper I wrote more than a decade ago. By the way, let me state for the record that I am politically a liberal humanist, and I have lived and worked in Poland (and have visited what today is called Gdansk).
     Djiekuje bardzo,
-- Steven C. Anderson, 15 March 2004
--
The official history, using prewar population figures, wartime estimates and postwar figures from both German states and Poland, concludes that 2,167,000 people from the Oder-Neisse territories died as a result of the war and the subsequent expulsions, but estimates that about 500,000 of these were military casualties, reducing the number of civilian deaths to about 1.6 million.  To this it adds the deaths of 100,000 Danzigers and 217,000 German residents of prewar Poland, for a total of about 1.9 million civilian deaths.
101
No breakdown is given of the proportion who died in the flight from the Red Army, during the occupation or during the expulsions, but an analysis of the figures indicates that about a third of the casualties must have occurred among those who fled during the conquest; the balance apparently occurred during the period of expropriation and expulsion.
Roos says approximately 7.2 million fled or were expelled from the Oder-Neisse territories put under Polish control, along with 380,000 Danzigers and 880,000 German-Poles.  “Of these,” he says, death claimed about 1.2 million from the territories, 90,000 Danzigers and 200,000 German-Poles, for a total of nearly 1.5 million civilian fatalities, not including those in northern East Prussia.
102
Szaz mentions the 2.16 million cited by Schieder, which includes military casualties, but elsewhere says “over 1 million” of the 3.5 million expelled from the territories lost their lives. 103
From these estimates it is evident that 1.5 million to 2 million German civilians lost their lives in the Soviet conquest of eastern Germany and subsequent expulsions.  In other words, one-sixth to one-fifth of the population died in the revenge of the East.
----
101.  Schieder, Theodor, ed.  Documents on the Expulsion of the Germans  from Eastern-Central Europe.  Bonn (no date)., pp. 122-23.
102. Roos, Hans.  A History of Modern Poland.  New York:  Alfred A. Knopf, 1966, pp. 215-16.
103. Szaz, Zoltan Michael.  Germany's Eastern Frontiers:  The Problem of the Oder-Neisse Line.  Chicago:  Henry Regnery Co., 1960., pp. 96, 126.
copied by: Ruhrjung 21:21, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (.No, of cours not! Why bother with reading? Isn't it enough to cause as much disturbance as possible?.)--Ruhrjung 10:51, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Ruhrjung, I read all those numbers. I made a detail analysys of some historians findings. The problem with me is that I am a sceptical person. Those findings are very dubious and contradict each other. First of all, they are based on statistics that is not trustworthy. I am not denying, that there were some victims, but I doubt in milions. Do you know how complicate it is to actually kill 1 milion people?? It needs hard proof to make me believe. Cautious 11:47, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The numbers seem dubious indeed. The civilian losses during the war might've been really high, even as high as 2 millions (see: Soviet seizure of Danzig that was shelled for several days after the German troops withdrew). However, we need some proof of the existence of some policy of extermination of Germans after the war. There should be some mass graves, some mixed Polish-German commitee for taking care of those graves and German places of martyrdom.Halibutt 12:09, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Copied from Talk:Gdansk

message: With regard to the number of citizens of Danzig bwho were killed in the war and its aftermath, my estimate of which was removed by 'cautious,' I offer the following excerpt from an academic paper I wrote more than a decade ago. By the way, let me state for the record that I am politically a liberal humanist, and I have lived and worked in Poland (and have visited what today is called Gdansk).
     Djiekuje bardzo,
-- Steven C. Anderson, 15 March 2004
--
</td></tr>
The official history, using prewar population figures, wartime estimates and postwar figures from both German states and Poland, concludes that 2,167,000 people from the Oder-Neisse territories died as a result of the war and the subsequent expulsions, but estimates that about 500,000 of these were military casualties, reducing the number of civilian deaths to about 1.6 million.  To this it adds the deaths of 100,000 Danzigers and 217,000 German residents of prewar Poland, for a total of about 1.9 million civilian deaths.
101
No breakdown is given of the proportion who died in the flight from the Red Army, during the occupation or during the expulsions, but an analysis of the figures indicates that about a third of the casualties must have occurred among those who fled during the conquest; the balance apparently occurred during the period of expropriation and expulsion.
Roos says approximately 7.2 million fled or were expelled from the Oder-Neisse territories put under Polish control, along with 380,000 Danzigers and 880,000 German-Poles.  “Of these,” he says, death claimed about 1.2 million from the territories, 90,000 Danzigers and 200,000 German-Poles, for a total of nearly 1.5 million civilian fatalities, not including those in northern East Prussia.
102
Szaz mentions the 2.16 million cited by Schieder, which includes military casualties, but elsewhere says “over 1 million” of the 3.5 million expelled from the territories lost their lives. 103
From these estimates it is evident that 1.5 million to 2 million German civilians lost their lives in the Soviet conquest of eastern Germany and subsequent expulsions.  In other words, one-sixth to one-fifth of the population died in the revenge of the East.
----
101.  Schieder, Theodor, ed.  Documents on the Expulsion of the Germans  from Eastern-Central Europe.  Bonn (no date)., pp. 122-23.
102. Roos, Hans.  A History of Modern Poland.  New York:  Alfred A. Knopf, 1966, pp. 215-16.
103. Szaz, Zoltan Michael.  Germany's Eastern Frontiers:  The Problem of the Oder-Neisse Line.  Chicago:  Henry Regnery Co., 1960., pp. 96, 126.
</table>
copied by: Ruhrjung 21:21, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (.No, of cours not! Why bother with reading? Isn't it enough to cause as much disturbance as possible?.)--Ruhrjung 10:51, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Ruhrjung, I read all those numbers. I made a detail analysys of some historians findings. The problem with me is that I am a sceptical person. Those findings are very dubious and contradict each other. First of all, they are based on statistics that is not trustworthy. I am not denying, that there were some victims, but I doubt in milions. Do you know how complicate it is to actually kill 1 milion people?? It needs hard proof to make me believe. Cautious 11:47, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The numbers seem dubious indeed. The civilian losses during the war might've been really high, even as high as 2 millions (see: Soviet seizure of Danzig that was shelled for several days after the German troops withdrew). However, we need some proof of the existence of some policy of extermination of Germans after the war. There should be some mass graves, some mixed Polish-German commitee for taking care of those graves and German places of martyrdom.Halibutt 12:09, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Danzigers population losses 

message: No, I'm fine with step two.Space Cadet 23:12, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, then let's see how long time it lasts until User:Cautious has considered the issue. Maybe a word from User:Nico and User:Darkelf would be best waiting for?--Ruhrjung 10:51, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am in favour of step 2, meaning including the persons not involved in the current dispute. I agree on condition, those should be either Russians or Jews or Armenians. I propose users Mikkalai, Viki Rozenzweig and Danny. Cautious 11:47, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: Accordingly to what? --Ruhrjung 16:02, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia dispute resolution, the next step?