Talk:Italy/Archive 1

message: Could this be of interest to members of this forum?  I created a table with Olympic medal statistics which also includes a total medal count for the entire European Union (among many other things). The original article is here: Olympic Medal Statistics: Medal Count Winners. Recently, however, someone nominated this article for deletion. If you want to comment on whether it really should be deleted, go to this article's entry. Thanks! Medalstats 15:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding Italian Olympic Medals to an EU Medal Count? 

message: I have just created a page for the city of Amelia in the Umbria region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_italy
It would be helpful if one (or more) of the experienced hands around here would edit the page, first to make sure that it meets the usual standard in terms of layout and such, second to do what ever is deemed necessary to render it an acceptable article in terms of content.  Third, there may be reasons to link the page to other articles in Wikipedia so that it integrates well within the "Italy" and "Umbria" sections of this site.  As I noted in the discussion area for this article, I wrote this for a private website which is targeted at travelers, so it is not backed-up with citations to primary, secondary or even tertiary academic works.  I see that the title of the article is "Amelia, Italy" and even that may be an incorrect way to title it.  It's my first attempt at an article, so please forgive anything that is untoward.JVian 19:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Amelia, Umbria

message: I think it is not appropriate to state that Italian Euro coins is a currency in Italy. If we do so - in order to be consequent - we have to put in all other national variants of the Euro coins as well (since those are "legal tender" in Italy as well). Additionally there is a difference between currency and legal tender, thus the Euro is the sole currency of Italy.143.224.66.243 16:06, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Italian euro coins

message: I see that the flag depicted in the article has a rather grayer color instead of white. Clicking on it to go to the image's page, the guy says that this is a new flag by Berlusconi.
Has there an official change *truly* been made to the flag? If not, have the old flag show that the Flag of Italy page also depicts. Aris Katsaris 07:19, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted the page. Aris Katsaris 23:04, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag of Italy 

message: After dinking a bit with Cuneo and Province of Cuneo, it seems to me that we need to be more consistent about the distinction between city and province. Not only do we have mixed-up links, but some names are listed in multiple categories, and it will look pretty weird to have both city and province tables in the same article. Finally, the interwiki links can't be made to work right if we have one article and the Italians and Germans have two. To be consistent with other languages, I suggest putting the city at "Name" and the province at "Province of Name", which is more of a literal translation, although "Name Province" would be OK too. "Name (province)" seems less desirable, because lots of text will want to include "Province" so as to make things clearer for readers. Stan 00:12, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Provincial nomenclature 

message: Perhaps it would be better to entirely remove "National Motto" as there is none to prevent further vandalism. Jcr2 10:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Simply noone ever felt the need for a "motto".--Panairjdde 08:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: National Motto

message: Three items:
# Within the next half-hopur, there will be a new template available - Template:Italy-geo-stub, for any Italian geography related stubs.
# I note that the European "Location of italy" map near the top of this article seems to incude Istria and Rijeka as part of Italy., I think that should probably be fixed! 
#Finally - I hope no-one minds, but I did a quick edit of the equals signs on this page so that the ToC reads correctly!  Grutness|hello?  03:55, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Italy-geo-stub, and Europe map

message: Colonnial and WWII occupation episodes are essential and indisputable facts of Italian history. Should be in this article if only as pointers to more detailed treatment. Judging by space ... more important than the king's exile! MGTom  11:18, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)
:It is true that Italian history is incomplete without colonial and military occupation episodes, but I strongly believe these should be moved to History of Italy. This section should be rewritten to a quick walkthrough of Italian history, from pre-Roman age to modern times. What do you think about? --Panairjdde 15:37, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore: writing massive war crimes requires far more documentation that the three links present in Italian war crimes.--Panairjdde 16:20, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: I am just commenting that highlighting episodes which happened in 2/3 years (war crimes or king exile or whatelse) is far from a correct approach, if you are telling the history of a country that lasts more than 30 centuries. And I keep on supporting the argument that History part should be rewritten. As regards the distance between Italy and Italian war crimes, note that it is natural (IMO) a break Italy -> history -> wars -> war crimes, with all episodes from different wars listed in a single page. If you think war crimes should go into first page, this first page should contain such a large collection of information it would be unreadable. --Panairjdde 12:30, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History incomplete w/o colonial and military occupation episodes 

message: Giuseppe Prezzolini is an author that should be taken note of & extracted. Of course this is in the "alternate route to Italy". 
Sources such as:
[http://www.geocities.com/cnalin21205/filosofiitaliani/prezzolini.htm
Actual popular lore has it as :
...  contesto che è.... quello della società italiana; ebbene più di qualcuno ne ha analizzato pregi e difetti a cominciare da Giuseppe Prezzolini il quale già nel 1917 scriveva che gli italiani si dividono in FURBI e FESSI e delineava le caratteristiche degli uni e degli altri:1) il furbo è sempre in un posto che si è meritato non per le sue capacità, ma per la sua abilità a fingere di averle,2) colui che sa è un fesso; colui che riesce senza sapere è un furbo,3) i fessi hanno dei principi; i furbi soltanto dei fini,4) non bisogna distinguere il furbo con l'intelligente: l'intelligente è spesso un fesso anche lui.E così via. Automatic translation:
"a wider context that is that one of the Italian society; well more than someone it has analyzed some pregi and defects to begin from Giuseppe Prezzolini which already in 1917 it wrote that the Italians divide themselves in CLEVER and CLEAVED and it delineated the characteristics of the uni and the others:
1) the clever one is always in a place that has been deserved not for its abilities, but for its ability to pretend to have them,
2) $R-he who knows is cleaving; $R-he who succeeds without knowledge is a clever one,
3) the cleaved ones has of the principles; the clever ones only of the ends,
4) it does not have to distinguish the clever one with the intelligent one: the intelligent one is often cleaved also he.
And therefore via."
The automatic translator has it as: furbi: clever, fessi: cleaved ... does it go as a good translation? 
It seems that Prezzolini himself was not amply translated to English, but he has some remarkable and probably correct (in his historic context) observations. MGTom  14:26, 2005 Feb 27 (UTC)
:I don't really think this quote from an obscure philosopher is important in Italy main page. Just write down, if you want, a page on Prezzolini, and categorize it. --Panairjdde 09:28, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The automatic translator has it as: furbi: clever, fessi: cleaved ... does it go as a good translation? I am Italian, but my English is not perfect. furbi has a negative connotation: if you are  furbo it means that you are clever and smart, but you are using your qualities for egoistic advantage against others. In modern language, the expression i furbi (those who are furbi) denotes the people that do not contribute in a positive way to the society or act againts the laws. For example, someone who doesn't pay taxes is a furbo. In recent news, the people involved in a not-so-clear financial plot were called furbetti:  http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furbetti_del_quartierino --Andrea Censi 21:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Giuseppe Prezzolini entry

message: That small article is not worth a helluva lot, and should prolly be folded in here. The links there for example are a vehicle for some arbitrarily picked places, and most of them don't deal with tourism in Italy, merely championing various destinations. Similarly, the rest of the article is not mostly about tourism, but about Italy, and very arbitrary in its choices and vague in its statements. Bill 16:14, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "[[Tourism in Italy]]"

message: I am creating a new map of Italy. if anyone has an objection to the current map please make your objection known
:You should tell us what are you going to change, in comparison with the current map.--Panairjdde 06:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It already exists, see :Image:Italy Regions Latium 220px.png, for an example of regional division. Provincial division is more problematic, since there are more than 110 provinces, and they are in the process to add others. However, I do not think that adopting a region-based image would be better than the current image. Please, sign your posts, it's the second from right button.--Panairjdde 08:32, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: i see now. ok no region map.--espo111 05:25, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: new map of Italy

message: It's with some regret that I just removed a link to a photosite. This one was far better than the one above (Talk:Italy#Link_removed), in that (a) there are more photos, 546 of them plus a few of Mont Blanc; and (b) the subsite is centered on Italy; but it still (c) provides very little information about Italy, many of the photos being tourist shots of flowers etc., and with just the barest captions (occasionally wrong) and (d) remains a commercial site which in fact is not primarily about Italy, but designed to sell photographs. Some of the photographs are beautiful, though. Maybe Wikipedia should have a separate article logging the better Italy sites? Bill 18:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: i would really like to create a site, or find one, that has public domain pictures of italy, and only italy. i have a lot of photos, many not "touristy." any ideas?
--espo111 21:45, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Frank (this is no longer exactly Wikistuff, but no reason for me not to help!!), most people who take good photographs, myself included, don't give away our rights to them, so you'll find precious few sites that put the pix in the public domain; I won't say you won't find any at all, but in 10 years online, I can't remember ever seeing one. As for creating such a site yourself, well it would be very generous of you; it's also a terrific amount of hard work, that part I speak about from experience. The problem lies only in part in scanning decent photos: a photograph is really not worth too much without good explanations, which goes far beyond the level of just some caption. "Façade of the cathedral of Orvieto", for example, though a start, is really not that useful or informative. So on my own site, I find that an average page, with 3 or 4 photos, takes a full day to put up, of which the scanning accounts for less than 20% of the time: the rest is writing intelligent text. And at the beginning, until you settle into a pattern, you'll have a longish start-up curve, setting the look-and-feel of your site. I'll be glad to discuss, or even conceivably, depending on exactly what you're trying to do, host stuff; we can continue this by e‑mail — Best, Bill 23:06, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Another link removed

message: Both are correct, or at least the name Baldassare/Baldassarre has been routinely spelled both ways for centuries. Wikipedia chose the former spelling, though; so the change to the latter just winds up redirecting; I reverted merely to avoid a redirect. Bill 12:57, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Baldassare Castiglione]] vs. [[Baldassarre Castiglione]]

message: I've noticed that there's no mention in this article about the small sort of racial conflict between Northern Italians and Southern Italians. Because some Northern Italians feel superior over the Southern Italians. Those tiny groups of Northern Italians want to create their own idependent state and name it Padania I believe. I was wondering, does anybody know how to put and integrate all of this information into the article?--Gramaic 3 July 2005 01:32 (UTC)
:For starters, Mezzogiorno has some material, and the political consequences under Padania for example. Bill 9 July 2005 18:25 (UTC)
::I removed the part about "separatist Northern Italian political party that views Southern Italians, particularly the Mezzogiorno region in Southern Italy, to be inferior to Northern Italians". If someone wants to put back the text, should provide evidence for that.--Panairjdde 13:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like Gramaic wants to start and edit war about this point. I will not remove his statement now, but I think that he has to support with evidence his claims, both about separatism and racism of Lega Nord. If he does not present any support, I will remove the text. Furthermore, note that the text is in the wrong part, since it should be under "Politcs", not under "History".--Panairjdde 14:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While the separatism and racism etc. are real minority viewpoints and therefore problems, short of a systematic section on Problems Facing Modern Italy, which would include a number of other more serious problems (Mafia, terrorism, immigration, integration into the European Union, the stifling effects of bureaucracy, the unresolved questions of national identity, some of them relating to the rôle of the Catholic Church, etc. But a simple assertion of the separatism question, especially in the way in which it has been sketched out, is merely bad manners and invidious, and definitely not NPOV. Those interested, and who read Italian, may read a long-standing previous version of the Italian Wikipedia article Stati Uniti d'America, in which, under "Contraddizioni" I think it was, a long vagary on racism and the death penalty was inserted — Europeans of a certain stripe are much given to pontificating on those two items; but to their credit over at I‑Wiki, they removed that, on much the same grounds. Bill 18:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just removed the paragraph from the section until I provide some reliable sources. I never meant to have anyone think that I intended to start an edit war with anyone. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:50, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separatism 

message: The article Culture of Italy has been listed to be improved on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. You can add your vote there if you would like to support the article.--Fenice 06:29, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement Drive

message: Today's link addition (Italy Pictures by Eric Burritt) was 90 photos of Rimini, 10 of Florence, 8 of Rome, and 6 of Venice. That's not good enough coverage of Italy to qualify as a resource for all of Italy. (For Rimini, OK.) Bill 20:24, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Another link removed

message: I think there should be add in the geography section or maybe in an article on its own, the difference between the Italian state and the Italian peninsula. Accordind to geographers AFAIK, Italian peninsula is composed of the territories of the ITalian state plus the area of Nice (Nizza), the Italian speaking Switzerland (Ticino Canton + some valleys of Grisons) and Istria (belonging to Slovenia and Croatia). Some territories (Livingo) are part of the Italian state but not of the peninsula.
What to do you think?? User:128.178.155.76 (who forgot to sign)
:A peninsula is a term of geographical relief, and as such the language spoken doesn't enter into the matter. The relief boundaries of Italy do not include the formerly Italian areas of France nor (most of) those of Istria, since the Alps in the former, the mountains along the Isonzo in the latter case, delimit the peninsula quite clearly. Extending an "Italian peninsula" to areas beyond the relief boundaries starts leaning toward supporting a backdoor NPOV Italian claim to territories once Italy's but that are not now, a little bit like calling Louisiana a French peninsula. . . . Bill 15:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geography & Italian peninsula 

message: The UltimateItaly link is not exactly representative of the whole country, but says so; the selection is fairly wide, the material is fairly good, the site is nonprofit. As a site covering Italy it's still marginal — but marginal it is, and all I did was move it to after the official sites. Bill 10:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Link (kept!)

message: I have added ItalianVisits.com because, even though it is a marginally commercial site, it is one of the most comprehensive sites about Italy, including information and photographs for all regions, their capital cities, and dozens of other locales in Italy.  We have made a significant effort to refer readers to Wikipedia articles for additional information.  We are adding pages and photos for other places throughout Italy, so that each regional section is as complete say, as the section on Calabria.
I understand this addition might be controversial, so I am very happy to discuss this.  ---JVian 16:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: ItalianVisits added

message: I removed TerraGalleria. The photos are quite nice, and there are a fair number of them, but they don't cover the country at all well: of the 20 regions, only 7 (Piemonte, Liguria, Veneto, Tuscany, Umbria, Lazio, Campania) and even there for example Umbria is merely some shots of Orvieto, and Piemonte of Mont Blanc. Not representative, then; on the other hand, at one level lower, those links are useful, and I'll add some of the subpages to Cinque Terre, etc. Bill 14:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Links, continued

message: Today's addition was the drop of water needed to make this camel's back overflow: I removed all of them. Some of them, maybe even most of them, are handled by the Category system: :Category:Italy includes Communications in Italy, Italian language, etc. The Category system in fact handles some items far better: Italian food consists of far more than 4 items, for example. Other items are arcane and quite pointless here, since someone consulting a general article on Italy is exceedingly unlikely to want Veronese Riddle, for example.
My main objection, however, is the usual one (see my recent edits in this sense to Rome and United States Military Academy): little by little, one person adds a link or two to their particular da-da, another adds another, and before you know it, you have a long silly-looking list that adds no information to the article, is not comprehensive, merely reflecting the quirks of whoever happened to edit, and is disproportionately long. OUT. Bill 17:55, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "See also" list, removed=

message: I made a couple of minor edits in the Italy - Wilktravel article in regards to meals. I changed "primi" and "secondi" to "primo" and "secondo". In Italian, primo/prima and secondo/seconda refers to first and second respectively and as far as I know there is no "primi" or "secondi" (Italian speakers can set me straight if I'm wrong). As an aside as a member of the Canadian military I was stationed in Naples, Italy from '99 - '03 and got to travel throughout most of Italy, plus other parts of Europe and North Africa. When I get a chance I plan on adding more info to the Italy -Wilkpedia article based on my personal experiences and some tourist stuff I brought back from Italy.
L.J.Brooks 22:19, 2005 Oct 20 (UTC)
Either works.  If you look at a menu you're likely to see primi and secondi because it is plural, and more than one of each dish is offered; if you're talking about one meal you would most likely be speaking of one primo and one secondo.  So singular and plural have different uses even though on a page like this either would probably work. ABart26 07:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italy - Wilktravel article 

message: The site is excellent — but doesn't cover all of Italy. It belongs under Venice; and in fact that's where you'll find it. Bill 16:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External links: removed Venezia.Net

message: I have demographics regarding Italy from it's official statistics centre, and i will provide a link. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.221.81.96 (talk • contribs) .
:Presumably ISTAT? Bill 18:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Italian Demographics

message: Many thanks for this. I think, though, that they do not mean that there are 2,8 m illegal immigrants, but rather 2,8m immigrants! As there are 2,4m with valid residence permits as of Dec 2004, another 400.000 is very plausible. But another 2,8 million?? It is not possible.
I will get back to you on reasonable estimated figures, which I am now working on.
--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 20:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Thanks

message: I dont understand how someone is willing to use a Romanian newspaper to tell them how many Romanians live in Italy. Of course any nation can propagate the number of their nationals living abroad. If ISTAT tells me there are a little more than 248,000 Romanians living in Italy, then i believe that. We cannot make assumptions as to how many people of a certain race live in Italy if they are illegal as well. There are 2.4 million immigrants living in italy, not 2.8 million. Someone still has to make the Italian introduction much better than the way it is now. 24.226.10.98 22:07, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Prime Minister S. Berlusconi visiting in 12.10.2005 Romania said that there are at least 600.000 (http://www.guv.ro/presa/afis-doc.php?idpresa=42228&idrubricapresa=&idrubricaprimm=&idtema=&tip=&pag=1&dr=). So I think is correct. -- Bonaparte  talk & contribs 09:19, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Unofficial

message: I just fixed several typos and wording errors in the Culture section, as well as deleting some grafitti from the bottom of the section. Can someone please work on the first paragraph of Culture, as  importantances isn't a word and I don't think holidays are whatever an importantance is. Also the edit links for several sections including Culture are in the wrong position, this is a formatting error which needs to be fixed.
Slark 02:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Great minds must run in tandem.... Without looking here first, I deleted the whole section, which was appallingly bad, and had been irritating me for months. But now reading this, I find someone must have reverted you, since what I deleted included "importantances" for example. Anyway, it's gone. Among the inanities and POV: every country has good things to eat, and a worse short list of the good things in Italian cooking couldn't have been devised, reading like a summary of a menu from the Olive Garden. The notion that Italians are known for "taste" is blatant POV, and there is taste to be found everywhere: even if a certain elitist notion is meant, Japan, China, England and France come to mind as well. Why Tommaso Geraci is singled out to represent all of modern art in Italy, is a conundrum, except not worth pondering. "List of Italians" is a stupidity, best not linked to from any article. The link between football and culture is curious, and depends on a sort of pun on "culture": usually what is meant by "culture", which is what seems to have been meant in this section as well, is art and literature; soccer is part of "the culture" in the same way as living with one's parents into one's 30s, or burying people in the cemeteries typical of Italy, etc. At any rate, lists, blatant or camouflaged, do not an article make. (As to why, if I think this former section was so bad, I didn't rewrite it myself — I can't, I'm not competent to do so. It's much easier to see what's wrong than to fix it. But it's better to have nothing than something so bad. Presumably the article Culture of Italy, having more room to spread out in, is better; I didn't look. Bill 13:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  changes to Culture section 

message: I can't figure out what this sentence means. It might need to be edited (albeit by someone more knowledgeable on the subject than myself): 
: After Magna Graecia, the Etruscan civilization and especially the Roman Republic and Empire that dominated this part of the world for many centuries, Italy was central to European philosophy, science and art during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.
Rereading it just now, I think I get what it means. It's just a badly constructed sentence. Maybe someone could reconstruct it. 
-- Andrew Parodi 00:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Meaning of sentence?

message: * The good feeling with U.S.A and U.K. about international choises and events
* The Peace Mission in Aftanistan/Iraq after american invasion with medical Supports(Crocerossa Italiana), Money helps, and also military sections for Iraq security.
* The european italian position about union economy and european costitution. Exept for the italian federalist group of Northern League and his leader Umberto Bossi.
And also a little description about the 2 mainly political alliance in italy:
* Coalition name: house of freedoms(Casa delle libertà, CdL) President: Silvio Berlusconi
party members: Forza Italia, National alliance, Democrats' Centre Union, Northern League, and others minority.
ideology: right
* Coalition name: The Union (L'Unione) president: Romano Prodi
Party members: Olive Tree, Left-Wing Democrats, Communist Refoundation Party , Daisy, and others minority.
ideology: left
the next elections will be to April 2006.
--Count Neclord 10:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some notes to add about Italy 

message: This page is good...not great...but good...it's just...boring...needs more color, you know? --68.221.103.157 20:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we nominate this article for AID? Sicilianmandolin 22:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More....color...? 

message: I have nominated this article for AID. Let's get some more votes going! Sicilianmandolin 11:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: AID Nomination

message: It says five are marked with an asterisk, but i see only four Rmpfu89 00:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  provinces 

message: I think a discussion of Italy's volcanoes, and earthquakes should be included in this section. An expert's help in this section would be appreciated. TwasBrillig 01:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geography 

message: There's a whole :Category:Religion in Italy, but only a paragraph summary here.  It could probably be expanded into a Religion in Italy article. -- Beland 20:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion 

message: Something is needed here. We can't just link to the main article on this. Even a summary of the main article would be nice.
:Well, I've devised something. I'm not entirely confident with the quality, and I would encourage anyone to improve it as they see fit, but it's a good start, nonetheless. I don't know much about modern Italy, and its trends in media, fashion and sports, but I can definitely see some room for information regarding those subjects. Sicilianmandolin 18:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture 

message: CIA World Fact Book states that 90 per cent of Italy's population is Roman Catholic. In our article we are assuming thaat 87 per cent of Italians are Catholic. We should go with CIA World Fact Book, at least it is a reliable source, not assuming.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.150.149.183 (talk • contribs) .
:It is very hard nowadays to get reliable stats on religion simply because things are no longer black and white, and there are varying levels of religiosity. That is why we get conflict between stats that say, for example, that 40% of French people don't believe in God, and then other sources say that 85% of the population is Roman Catholic. Italy is one of the EU's most religious countries, so that level of discrepancy will probably not take place. However, CIA World Factbook statistics are generally somewhat unreliable in this regard and are not based on any clear or consistent definition of religiosity.  Ronline ✉ 11:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion 2 

message: It should be noted that "Bel Paese" is a poetical definition, not used in everyday language, and that it is often used ironically (for example by Francesco Guccini in his song "Cyrano", when he says "in questo benedetto, assurdo Belpaese"="in this blessed, absurd Beautiful country"). Clap 14:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong. It is widely used in a positive meaning, even in by Guccini in his song.--Panairjdde 15:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I do not agree. The term is not ironic, even if sometimes is used in that sense. However, we could juste remove it from the article.--Panairjdde 09:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The term is not ironic, but it's often used in that sense. It's not very important, but the sentence with the words "Bel Paese" sounds like an advertising for tourism in Italy, I simply wanted to note that. Clap 09:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not agree on "often". Re-reading the text, I find it a good introduction to the matter of "officially" recognized monuments.--Panairjdde 11:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I am Italian too. Belpaese is used to refer to Italy in every case, not to stereotypes.--151.47.113.141 15:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belpaese 

message: This article is undoubtedly one of the poorest country articles on Wikipedia in consideration of Italy's historical promimence as one of the most important countries in the world and its current position as a global leader. I commend the individual largely responsible for the languages section, who took the initiative to expand that section and set an example of the potential for creating something meaningful out of this article. I have since followed in that example and improved the culture section from a glaringly empty stub into something worthwhile and relevant. If at least one person devotes themselves to the creation and improvement of a single section or improvement of an existing section, as I did, we could really set the pace for improving this article enormously. Use the internet, use Wikipedia, use other encyclopedias; anything. As the 3rd Google search result produced for "Italy", there's really no excuse for the downright egregious condition of this article, either. It can be done; it needs to be done. Thank you. Sicilianmandolin 06:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's decent, but it is not good. It has since improved since I wrote this, thankfully. And no, more words certainly do not make it a better article, but that's not the only thing I am calling for. Sicilianmandolin 17:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Improving this article

message: The area of Italy is given in the infobox like this:
:301,230 km² (71st) 
:116,346.5 sq mi 
The two numbers aren't equal: 301 230 km^2 is equal to 116 306 mi^2, or 116 346.5 mi^2 is equal to 301 336 km^2.  The area in km^2 was changed by this edit but the one given in mi^2 wasn't changed.   My world atlas [Cartographia Világatlasz, 1995] claims that the area is in between these: 301 302 km^2.  I won't edit the article now but let someone else decide on this.  – b_jonas 22:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Area conversion 

message: Today, Italy won the World Cup. They won it against France in overtime.--Chili14(Talk|Contribs) 20:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Cup Champions 

message: If Croatia shares a 'sea border' with Italy, then isnt it also valid to include the countries of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania and Greece as countries Italy shares a border with?  Or rather remove the sentence which states this? 68.145.246.117 23:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because national waters are a limited number of nautical miles wide, and Italy and Albania, for example, are too far apart in order for their national waters to "border" each other. Otherwise Italy and Albania could get an agreement and "close" the Adriatic sea, forbidding all ships to cross their national waters.--Panairjdde 23:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Croatia sharing a border? 

message: A user has been edit-warring for deleting this entry:
* Armando Gabba, a baritone opera singer who performed in 1984 with Renato Bruson, Edita Gruberová, Brigitte Fassbaender, and Neil Shicoff in Rigoletto, and is still active
from the disambiguation page Gabba, arguing that he's not notable enough to ever have a Wikipedia article, and thus to be listed as a redlink on a dab page. You can provide opinion and information (positive or negative) about it at the discussion page Talk:Gabba so as to help sort it out.
Thanks,
-- 62.147.112.36 14:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  notability of Armando Gabba, baritone singer? 

message: Hi, I just noticed something about the region map on the main article..  it doesn't have a 15th region and it has two 19s.  Unless one of those 19s is really a 15, is there anything anyone can do to makke it make sense, at least to me?  Thanks,
Ackander 02:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've fixed the '15' issue - now we just have to make the article numbers correspond correctly. ¦ Reisio 22:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: If the numbers in Regions of Italy are correct, then the numbers here should be now, too. ¦ Reisio 23:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Region map 2

message: Yes, basketball is a popular sport in Italy and deserves its own Italy-oriented article. But has it overtaken football (or cycling)? To me the (properly) brief section on sport, in an article on Italy as a whole, seems to be being overtaken by a fanatic. Ian Spackman 11:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Happy? :) Sicilianmandolin 11:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have always been happy to see your endeavours to improve this article! My comment was aimed at those who torment you.  —Ian Spackman 12:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Hahaha! That gave me a good laugh. Thank you, Ian. Often times I forget to include pieces of pertinent information, and such efforts to remind me of them are appreciated, even if whomever is doing so couldn't write an intelligible sentence in English to save their life. :P Sicilianmandolin 19:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basket 

message: Bold textWho migrated to Italy and When?
: Whether or not that’s your homework, it’s an excellent question! In your answer (which I hope that you will turn into a Wikipedia article) you could start (in no particular order of importance or chronology: I’m sure you can get that from our apposite articles) by boning up on Ligures, Greeks, Gauls, Lombards, Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Franks, Saracens, Normans (check: are they Vikings?), Spaniards and Austrians. You should also consider why football coaches are often termed ‘Mister’. (Hint, it’s not American football!). You could then think about how people got into Italy: does it have a sea coast? should we use boats or elephants? in which direction is it easier to cross the Alps and why? Then, to take a specific case, imagine you make it across the Julian Alps with the skull of your enemy as drinking cup and a decent army. How long will it take you to reach Pavia? Who will try to stop you? Is the Pianura Padana an impassable zone of swamp and thicket, or has someone (who? why? when?) drained enough of it so that your progress is a sinch? Why did you want to go to Pavia anyway? How long did its siege last? How does Byzantium relate to this? Why would you then want/need to cross the Appenines? What spot would you choose? Hang on, though, we’re talking about migration in general, not just invasion. How did the Celts and the Ligurians get on together? Did one of them drive the other into the mountains, or did they form a joint culture? Or both? Come to that, does Napoleon count as an immigrant, and if so what was his legacy?
:I hope that once you have extended those questions to the many decades, centuries and millenia I missed out, and found good answers to them all (often from Wikipedia), you will have a the beginnings of a basis for composing a paragraph for your excellent essay! Cheers —Ian Spackman 21:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Migration 

message: removing addition at the very bottom stating, "italy is located in china and they invented orange chicken not pasta"  Experia 04:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  vandalism 

message: <<A large number of northern Italians speak English fluently>>
Not only the northen! I'm of South Italy and very many youngs speaks fluently English.
I propose to correct the phrase in:
<<A large number of Italians speak English fluently>>.
--Gce 09:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Also the South!

message: Hi, one month ago I deleted the MONA LISA picture that now is again in Italy's page. But why? The Mona Lisa picture is in Paris, not in Italy...so can't you delete this picture and replace it with an Italy related picture? What can I suggest...an image of the Cappella Sistina? Thanks!
87.10.53.63 18:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Mona Lisa was painted in Italy.--Panarjedde 01:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hah, man, hilarious.  Maybe someday they will think the Parthenon was actually built in London. LOL.  It is amazing to me this individual doesn't realize the Mona Lisa was not only painted in Italy, but also by the Italian Leonardo da Vinci. -sigh- Taalo 03:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't try to be clever man...I know that Mona Lisa was painted by Leonrado Da Vinci...after all, you just need to have read the Da Vinci Code...but I've said a different thing. I've said that it's very useless to put an image of a picture hosted in Paris in Italy's page. On top of that, the Mona Lisa is only a "tourist" image of Italy, like godola, pizza and mandolino. So you can more cleverly put an image that shows more important landmarks of Italy instead of a hackneyed stereotype. 87.3.56.92 17:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it would be quite the effort for me to try and be clever after someone has said: 1) "delete this picture and replace it with an Italy related picture" and then 2) "I know that Mona Lisa was painted by Leonrado (sic) Da Vinci...after all, you just need to have read the Da Vinci Code".  The Mona Lisa is one of the most famous paintings ever; there are plenty of photographs that can be used for scenery.  Anyway, this argument itself is useless -- if not hilarious! ps. there are much better books to learn your history from by the way... *rolls eyes* Taalo 18:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The Mona Lisa is arguably the most famous example of Italian painting, and from someone who is one of Italy's most famous artists (among other things).  --Nehwyn 08:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mona Lisa Smile

message: I found an excellent website, that I hope we can add as an reference. http://www.countriesandcities.com/  This website lists both the regions and provinces in what is most normally used in English: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/regions.htm, http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/provinces.htm. Taalo 03:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not see what kind of improvement this links bring to the article.--Panarjedde 21:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regions and Provinces

message: I'm Italian. I do not agree on the popularity of rugby in Italy:
"Rugby union is very popular in Italy"
I would say that 99% of the Italians do not know the rules of rugby.
Andrea Censi 21:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're probably right... but many Italians don't know the rules of football too, yet they are passionate supporters of a team. To assess popularity of a sport, I'd say that press coverage and TV broadcasting are more reliable criteria... and both in this case rule out rugby as a widely popular sport (even though I personally like it). I'd say volley is more popular.  --Nehwyn 07:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  but many Italians don't know the rules of football I think that virtually all the male population above 6 ys old knows the rules perfectly, but I don't have official numbers for this. I think it's true that Volley is more popular than Rugby, as it is frequently played in middle and high schools. Thinking of it, I guess it's because girls and boys can play together, being volley a sport without physical contact. --Andrea Censi 20:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rugby popular in Italy? 

message: In Italian you can refer to Italy simply as "la Penisola" (the Peninsula), and nobody can get you wrong. E.g. you can say "football is the most popular sport in the Peninsula" and nobody will think about Delmarva peninsula. This is a common antonomasia, know by every Italian and carried by all dictionaries. E.g. Garzanti: Penisola, s. f. territorio che si protende in un mare o in un lago e la cui base di attacco al continente è relativamente stretta rispetto alla sua lunghezza: la penisola iberica | la Penisola, per antonomasia, l'Italia. DIM. penisoletta.
I added this information, according also to the Italian Wikipedia ("l'Italia viene tradizionalmente chiamata la Penisola", that is "Italy is traditionally called la Penisola"). Strangely some users with obvious poor knowledgment of Italian culture are deleting it over and over again, stating ""penisola" is everything with a peninsular property, "stivale" is only the Italian peninsula".
Everyone with a little of knowledgment of Italy will agree this make absolutely no sense. As in French you can refer to France as "l'Hexagone", as in English you can call the Usa "the States", so in Italian Italy itself is just "la Penisola". I'd like to know your opinion about this and what can I do. 
--Fertuno 21:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely disagree with you. The fact that the most common Penisola in Italian culture is the Italian Penisola, does not mean that the common name for Italy is "Penisola".--Panarjedde 16:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's just false: one of the common name of Italian peninsula in fact is, along with lo Stivale (the Boot) or il Belpaese (the Beautiful country), la Penisola. This is a fact. Every Italian and everyone with a knowledgment of Italian culture knows it perfectly. It is used in common and formal language, on the television and stereotypically during the weather forecast. It doesn't just mean the Italian peninsula is the most common in the Italian culture: it is an effective substitution of a common noun for a proper name, or what is called an antonomasia (as the first two are). Calling France l'Hexagone is another antonomasia, or maybe the fact that the most common hexagon in French culture is the hexagon made up by the shape of France, does not mean that the common name for France is l'Hexagone?. If you are still doubtful, compare with these articles: Fastweb alla conquista della Penisola (Fastweb conquering the Peninsula), Venerdì soleggiato su gran parte della Penisola (Sunny Friday on most of the Peninsula), or Oggi 45 incendi in tutta la Penisola (Today 45 fires all over the Peninsula). Also check the De Mauro-Paravia's definition of penisola: (solo sing., per anton., spec. con iniz. maiusc., l’Italia, just singular, antonomasia, especially with the capital initial letter: Italy). I'll edit the statement accordingly to this. Please refrain from edit. --Fertuno 18:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not edit anything up until consensus is gathered. Otherwise I shall revert. This behaviour of yours has no place on a collaborative effort like Wikipedia, if you do not want to collaborate, this is no place for you.--Panarjedde 18:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think consensus has to be gathered in removing a valid and well-founded information added by others, extensively justified and approved at least by a third person, rather than in adding it. Also, pleas forbear from judging other people's behaviour just because you have a different opinion. Thank you. --Fertuno 18:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Personally I would neither add nor remove the statement: there are more pressing things to be done, preferably by people less ignorant than I am. On the related riding boot issue the archaic PD Catholic Encyclopedia is actually rather good (as indeed it is generally in that article when Vatican politics are not involved—absolutely useless when they are). —Ian Spackman 17:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italy as "la Penisola" 

message: Before anyone objects to my change of the word "Christian" to "religious," you should know that some of those groups aren't really Christian. For example, Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, which is what Christianity is about. I'm a Christian myself, so I'd know what it's about. Though I don't know much about the others.
I'm not trying to be prejudiced and I'm sorry if I came across as such. I just think the classification was incorrect.--SSJ4 Aragorn 04:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian groups? 

message: Main centres of population
City (region)    	Population	Population	Population
City (region)    	Province  	Urban area	Metropolitan area
Milan (Lombardy) 	3,869,037 	4,240,000 	6,500,000
Rome (Lazio)     	3,831,959 	3,831,959 	3,831,959
Naples (Campania)	3,086,622 	3,800,000 	4,150,000
Turin (Piedmont) 	2,242,775 	2,242,775 	2,242,775
I removed the table above because, although useful in principle, it is not only unsourced but implausible. Have a look at a map: not all of the Province of Turin can conceivably described as an urban area. Yet identical figures are given. If anyone can find a good source and correct the figures, that would be good. —Ian Spackman 07:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics: Italian City Provinces, Urban Areas and Metropolitan Areas 

message: Just restoring an unsigned comment made by User:192.197.178.2
"Regarding the emigration of Italians, Canada should be added to the list of top countries receiving Italian immigrants." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.197.178.2 (talk • contribs) 
I concur, by the way.  --Nehwyn 04:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely. I will make the addition (see Italian Canadian) 207.6.233.239 16:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops. Just noticed I can't make changes until registered. Perhaps someone else can add Canada to the list? 207.6.233.239 17:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Emigration countries

message: The map for this country has recently been changed to a format which is not standard for Wikipedia. Each and every other country identifies that country alone on a contintental or global map; none of them highlight other members of relevant regional blocs or other states which which that country has political or constitutional links. The EU is no different in this respect unless and until it becomes a formal state and replaces all other states which are presently members; the progress and constitutional status of the EU can be properly debated and identified on the page for that organisation; to include other members of the EU on the infobox map for this country is both non-standard and potentially POV.
Please support me in maitaining Italy's proper map (in Wikipedia standard) until we here have debated and agreed this issue? Who is for changing the map and who against? The onus is on those who would seek to digress from Wiki standard to show why a non-standard and potentially POV map should be used. Italy deserves no less! JamesAVD 15:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't top-post, the newest post on talk pages goes at the bottom. The proper place for this discussion is Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries instead of fragmented discussion on all country talk pages. Kusma (討論) 15:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

text: There's nothing wrong with the new map. If anything - it has a better view and is much cleaner. There is no harm in highlighting EU countries (what do you have against the EU?). I don't think it is POV at all. Rarelibra 16:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

text: How is the constitutional status being debated? The EU exists, the money is standardized, the free trade and free movement exists as well. Looks to me as if the constitutional status is pretty solid. Any hard feelings may be from countries with strong(er) economies supporting the weak(er) nation members. But such is the life in the United States. Many don't realize that only about 12 to 18 US states pay in more tax money than they receive. Most of the poor(er) US states actually receive more in federal aid than they pay in for taxes. Much similar to the EU. Rarelibra 17:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-standard and potentially POV map should be reverted 

message: User Kusma and User Yandman have been attempting to remove my contributions to discussions on this page (see the History of the page). Surely this is not allowed? JamesAVD 15:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I only moved it to the bottom, where it belongs. If you check the page history, you'll see I didn't remove anything. Kusma (討論) 15:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help 

message: Why is Italy the dumping ground of vandalism so much? We'll lock it out again, and once it unlocks it will be open season again for vandals from anon IP. What a shame. Rarelibra 18:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm getting more and more convinced that editing of Wikipedia should be limited to registered users, at least for articles considered for distribution.   --Nehwyn 19:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree too. alex2006 10:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WHY?

message: I've reduced the paragraphs concerning sports in Italy to an overview more relevant to the cultural aspect of the issue. I've transplanted the previous paragraphs to the Sport in Italy article, while including the suggestions made by the anonymous user whose comments about winter sports are on the top of this page. Feel free to edit my paragraph for grammar, content, etc. I hope no one disagrees with the decision I've made; the previous sports section was simply too massive. Sicilianmandolin 12:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sports Sections

message: Is 195 per km2 not 192,8. Fixed.
Lord Palmerston 12:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Population density''' 

message: There has been a bit of a dispute going as to how this image (:Image:Incontro_di_Teano_fra_Garibaldi_e_Vittorio_Emanuele_II.jpg) should be captioned. I am always in favour of proper captions for paintings—artist, date, materials, location, etc—so tried to get some details on this. The info on the image page is useless. (Not even enough to convince one that it is not a copy-vio.) I would guess that its web-origin was this page on the site of the Italian Ministry of Defense. The description there is
: Quadro rappresentante L'incontro di Garibaldi con Vittorio Emanuele II a Taverna di Catena, presso Teano, nel celebre dipinto di De Alberti.
However, I have been unable to track down anything more: not even who this painter ‘De Alberti’ is. If anyone knows, or can find out, any more, that would be helpful. —Ian Spackman 13:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture of Garibaldi meeting Vittorio Emanuele II near Teano 

message: If the protect template were active, how come  was able to remove it with his first ever edit? It seems to me that 172.198.110.251 made a good faith and helpful edit, which should not have been rolled back without explanation. We want to <I>encourage</I> new editors, don't we? Viewfinder 14:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inactive Protect Template