Talk:Nordic Bronze Age

message: Added image created by User:OlofE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiglaf (talk • contribs) 19:24, 27 September 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The Elp culture (1800BC to 800BC) located south of this Nordic Bronze Age, more or less North Eastern Netherlands and North Western Germany north of the Rhine, shows an equal archeological continuity, some features even having been preserved to recent times, thus having survived the influence of Hallstatt and La Tene from 800 BC onwards. Recent excavations demonstrated that tribes traditionally viewed upon as Germanic (for instance Batavians) could not be distinguished from their Celtic neighbours. Negative evidence of a strong Celtic elite in the Northern regions points to a thin Celtic superstratum on top of pre-celtic (ie. derived from Elp culture) substratum, as have been theorized by some experts. Archeological evidence pointing to a subsequent emigration from Scandinavia is ambiguous. Neither has this been supported by genetic investigations, the Scandinavians, although being strongly related to other Germanics, having some unique genes features of their own and limited to this region.
It is not evident nor liguistically compulsory to assume the early Indo European language split up inmediately after their initial expansions. What if some kind of continuum persisted in some wider areas, having mutually intelligible dialects rather than having split up in separate languages or genetic groups from the start? Much of the language processes could have travelled by diffusion, similar to the High German consonant shift, over a long period of time. I think the Nordic Bronze age does not supply sufficient evidence to claim more than being ancestral to North Germanic, and I think it would require some more reliable sourcing to support such a statement.
Rokus01 15:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: as an afterthought, if you are interested in the Elp culture, why do you pester the NBA articles instead of writing us a brilliant and well-referenced Elp culture article? dab (𒁳) 13:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nordic Bronze Age culture not necessarily the sole proto-germanic homeland 

message: Maybe I was not clear enough about it, but I insist on reliable recent sources that confirm the statement about an expansion of Jastorf south, for instance to Hessen or the Rhineland. This being only "likely" is POV or popular view. I already notified Britannica "does not account for the period in between 450/300 and Roman observation, and I am very much against applying fantasy to fill this gap." (don't let me repeat). The only sourced reference in Wikipedia to this claim so far (article Jastorf) is "Nordisk familjebok, a Swedish encyclopedia published between 1904–1926". This is ridiculous! Please be serious and don't engage to an edit war on this without first supplying decent sourcing. This whole thing is a myth you are creating. Rokus01 22:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it is correct that the burden to provide evidence that something did not happen lies not with you. Yes, at Jastorf culture we say that this culture evolved out of the NBA by contact with the Hallstatt culture. What is your point? Yes, it is possible that "Germanic" (or proto-Germanic, this is immaterial) expansion reached the lower Rhine (thus logically including the Rhine delta) by 500 BC. The NBA was indeed confined to Scandinavia, by definition. I don't see what you are objecting to, and it really seems you insist on misreading things. Where in the article is there any claim of "ALL Iron Age Germanics came originally from Scandinavia" or a "one and only (West Germanic) heir to the Northern Bronze Age Germanics"? You seem to be ranting against a position that nobody is even holding. dab (𒁳) 13:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jastorf expansion

message: Quote: "The Nordic Bronze Age was characterized by a warm climate that began with a climate change circa 2700 BC (comparable to that of present-day Mediterranean). The warm climate permitted a relatively dense population and good farming, for example grapes were grown in Scandinavia at this time. However a small change in climate between 850 BC and 760 BC and a more radical one circa 650 BC brought in a deteriorating, wetter and colder climate..."
What is the evidence for a warm climate that began 2700 BC? 
And what is the evidence of it being comparable to the Mediterranean? 
There are indeed evidence of a warmer climate (up to 3°C warmer than 1961-90), although this climate persisted for a long time following the end of the ice age, and gradually became cooler (lots of evidence in bogs about which plants grew nearby). Furthermore, it never was comparable to that of the Mediterranean - it did not have to be to allow dense population and good farming (indeed, southern Britain and the Benelux countries have the densest population of Europe). Comparable to central Germany or north-central France is more likely, and this would allow grapes to grow (like in the Rhine valley).Orcaborealis (talk) 23:35, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Climate in the Nordic bronze age 

message: "Succeeding the Corded Ware culture, it is generally considered to be the direct predecessor and origin of the Proto-Germanic culture of the Pre-Roman Iron Age."
I am a Swedish archaeologist. The quoted sentence is to my knowledge completely wrong. The Nordic Bronze Age is separated from the Corded Ware culture by 550 years, the Late Neolithic. And no professional scholar calls the culture of the Pre-Roman Iron Age "Proto-Germanic". Would anyone object if I corrected this throughout? I of course expect such an objector to support his position with reference to good sources. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 16:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Most archaeologists may be cautious and wary of identifying the Pre-Roman Iron Age with any particular language group (and rightly so, in general, where there is a lack of direct evidence), but linguists interested in Indo-European origins and archaeology usually view the association between the Pre-Roman Iron Age and Proto-Germanic or at least Common Germanic (i. e., early Germanic after it had started to diverge into a continuum of closely related dialects) as the most likely identification by far, or would at least consider the Pre-Roman Iron Age close to the time and place of Proto-Germanic, as far as I'm aware. Moreover, it is viewed as plausible and acceptable for a majority that the Nordic Bronze Age is associated with speakers of Indo-European dialects, likely including a predecessor of Proto-Germanic. Of course, this is all rather tentative and based on circumstantial evidence (such as that gained by Adalbert Kuhn's method of "linguistic paleontology"), like any such hypothesis. (It may be noted, however, that considerations akin to "Urheimat" discussions in historical linguistics are found in biology as well.) I would look in J. P. Mallory's books, especially the Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, for reference that these are indeed mainstream views, but I do not currently have his books ready at hand. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:41, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Proto-Germanic" 

message: Would an image replacement of the burial mound be relevant?
File:Gravhög Gårdstånga.jpg|Present photo from Sweden
File:Tinghøj Hammershøj Kvorning 2010-01-08 edit filtered.jpg|Alternative from Denmark
Personally, I think the latter photo is a more eyecatching and striking photo of a Nordic (typical) burial mound, but I also acknowledge that I am biased as it is my own creation. Moreover, I am not terribly knowledgeable about the subject itself. --Slaunger (talk) 10:44, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative image for a tumulus? 

message: Just for inspiration. I have now included more images in the article to give a more varied picture of the Nordic Bronze Age. There are more artifacts I would like to include however, for example the mysterious object from Bålkraka in Scania (see image). I would also like to include a sketch of the internal structure of the Bronze Age mounds. There are several images available in the commons category. And the intricate belt-buckles worn by the women, but I couldn't find any images. There is also material for a whole section on the rock carvings, with more information. They (and other finds) supports that dogs were a popular animal, used for hunting and as a pet. Horses are also shown. And then the architecture of this period. They lived in very large houses, much larger than in the Iron Age. But I miss good images for this.
File:Balkåkragongen fr Balkåkra sn, Ljunits hd, Skåne (Montelius Minnen (1917) Fig847).jpg|Bronze object from Bålkraka. Perhaps a gong used at ceremonies and rituals.
File:PSM V35 D810 Section of a barrow at dommerstorp in south holland.jpg|Sketch of the structure of a Nordic Bronze Age mound.
File:Scandinavian Civilization - rock carvings.jpg|Collection of typical rock carving symbols. Taken from Swedish carvings, but the symbols are represented throughout Scandinavia.
More online info on the Nordic Bronze Age as seen from a Danish perspective, can be found here:  at the National Museum of Denmark.
RhinoMind (talk) 23:47, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images and info 

message: What's that all about? Ario1234 (talk) 16:11, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this there have been less than 20, where did you get that number from? TylerBurden (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah no, that was for this talk page lol, yea that seems like a lot of traffic, interesting. TylerBurden (talk) 22:51, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  47,462 page views in the last 30 days