Talk:Languages of the United States/Archive 1

message: I can see on the primary language bar that Portuguese and Portuguese Creoles are counted as the same language, but French and French Creole are not. Why is that? kcar1986 00:34, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
:I don't know the deal about Portugese/Portugese Creole, but the "French Creole" listed is Haitian Creole, which is really a separate language in its own right.
:It's just the way the U.S. Census Bureau collates the language data.  It is self-reported, but before the Census Bureau publishes, they make categories like "Portuguese and Portugese Creole."  That is by far not the worst one.  Others include "Other Indic languages" "African languages."  Haitian Creole gets its own entry not because the Census Bureau has decided it is its own language in a way that Capeverdean Creole is not, but because there are more speakers of it.  The census language data are quite imperfect anyway, as they are based on sampling data. Satyadasa 07:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Creole

message: I don't quite understand that the English is not an official language in the USA. What this really means? I do believe that almost all official documents and such are written in English. Can someone explain this a little bit more? I can't imagine if I'll do much with swahili or with some more exotic language in public. And I get almost a petty nausea when I saw for example John Wayne speaking German in almost all German and Austrian TV's. And after all you can speak swahili in my homeland too, if you want. And it is quite a fun. Many African students are still studying in Ljubljana and they learn some Slovene. The most famous of them is Ignacio Bintchende aka Janez Belina (English John Whiteness). He also had some (let us say) neo-nazi incidents. After all do I live in a free country far away from mother Africa, where a word nigger can be heard many times - even in public politics? :-) Best regard. -- XJamRastafire 18:03 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)
:It simply means that the United States does not have an officially decreed language that must be used.  English is certainly the most common, but millions of Americans live their lives speaking other languages.  
:In general, you are supposed to speak English to be naturalized as a citizen, but even that isn't a rigid standard. Here is a summary of the requirements:
::A person must also demonstrate an ability to speak, read, and write ordinary English and have a general understanding of U.S. government and history. Long-time older permanent residents are exempt from the English requirement if they are 50 years or older and have been living in the U.S. for at least 20 years, or if they are 55 years or older and have been living in the U.S. for at least 15 years. These immigrants must still demonstrate knowledge of U.S. history and government, but they may do so in their native language. 
:Native-born Americans are not required to speak English in most places, although it is certainly handy!
:Some US states have an official languages.  In New Mexico both English and Spanish are official languages, although New Mexicans say the state does not always live up to its ideals in this regard.  Ortolan88
:: Yes Ortolan88 now I got a picture. The most important thing is, as I understand, that a language is not decreed. Nice law. I know how hard it is for two different nations (or even more ones) to live together. I can here for example recall Austrian politician Jörg Haider, who will do anything even nowadays that two peaceful nations won't live together in a small region. I can imagine similar problems all over the world. So in this case States can be beautifull example of living together. Thank you very much for the explanation. -- XJamRastafire 18:45 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)
----
* Does Congress have a procedural rule  on the language which must be spoken in debates? If not then how is the official record kept?
* Do the federal courts have a law on one language for the officials of the court. If not how is justice seen to be done? Philip Baird Shearer 21:19, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About the official language in the USA

message: I removed this sentence: " Any other large nation in history had this linguistic homogeneity," because it just doesn't ring true. Think of China, the history of the North and South American continents, pre-'Discovery' Australia, the Soviet Union, the Roman Empire, the English empire, and on and on. Atorpen 04:15 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
: Indeed. Would it even be going too far to say, "No other large nation in history has had this level of linguistic homogeneity"? -- Oliver P. 04:20 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
::China? From Chinese language: 'The notion of a "Chinese Language" may seem at first to be a fiction. The term "Chinese" is employed for the classical written language known as "wen2 yan2 (?? "literary language")" which was used by Confucius, as well as the modern standard known as "bai2 hua4 (?? "vernacular")". It includes many different spoken variations which may be mutually unintelligible. The spoken language of Beijing is for example very different from Cantonese, the conversational language of Hong Kong'.
::North and South American are continents, nor countries. Also, some small countries in Latin America as Bolivia have three official languages (and so much not officials).
::In the same, the Soviet Union, the Roman Empire and the English empire were all empires, no countries. All of them were multietnic and multilingual.
::The pre-'Discovery' Australia? From Australia: some of the surviving Aboriginal communities maintain their native languageS
:::Well, in Australian Aborigine, somebody wrote It should be noted that there were many different Aboriginal groups, with their own languages, cultures and beliefs which overlapped to a greater or lesser extent, and evolved over time.
:::And Brasil?
The English empire *was* North America.  it only became multiethnic later when it became the British Empire. -- Derek Ross
??
:: Many different ethnic groups were present in N. America before the British crossed the Pacific.  Please dont forget about them :)  Cheers! - Ish ishwar 22:50, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In México they speak 62 (61 plus Spanish) languages right now, babies. (source).--196.40.40.179 03:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: linguistic homogeneity

message: I removed the statement that 80% of Americans have no British ancestors. In the last census, 33% reported British background and since most respondents only listed one ethnicity, a primary one, than a far higher number have some British ancestors. Possibly even 80%? ;) Rmhermen 14:15, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)
:The 33% figure you cite is only accurate for *white* Americans.  Key distinction there.  The percentage of all Americans, in the 2000 census, who listed "American" ancestry along with those who listed British, English, Scottish, Scotch-Irish or Welsh ancestry, is about 22%.  See British Americans.
:: 33%? Hah, remember, 'British' is not an ethnic group. People of English origin are the highest in this collective ethnonym, accounting for 8.7% of the population. 80% is an absurd percentage as well. What makes us so sure that those who reported 'American' all derive from British forefathers? I'm taking a good guess that the majority of those who answered 'American', located in the midwest and other densely populated central intersections are of Scandinavian or German origin. Eric 05:58, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
:::Can't remember the ref, but there are maps showing county-by-county ethnicities, colored according to plurality (largest minority) ancestry of those who declared an ancestry. The impression you get from such a map is that the vast majority of the country is either English or German in origin. That is, those two colors are spread over the entire country, with many small-town areas being almost exclusively so, whereas other ethnicities tend to be geographically concentrated. But of course you can easily be the plurality of a county at only 10% of the population. kwami 18:45, 2005 Jun 19 (UTC)
::::I don't know what percentage of the population of the United States has no British ancestry, but I do know that the largest ancestries in the United States are German and Irish.  As such the majority of the population is certainly not of British ancestry, as there are at least two larger ancestry groups.  Furthermore, it is very likely that the pluralities you saw on the map were in fact far less than 50% that the population.  Furthermore, counties in the US vary dramatically in population.  Los Angeles County, California, for example, has millions of residents (nearly 10 million), while Loving County, Texas has only 67.  The largest counties in terms of area also tend to be in rural areas with low populations.  Most of what the map you saw says it that rural areas in the United States tend to be more populated by people of German and/or English ancestry. Also, I would like to sign this post with my IP address, but i am unsure of how to do so.  If there's anyone who reads this who knows how, it would be greatly appreciated if you could leave a comment instructing me how to do so.
:::::This entire argument is absurd.  German-Americans, British-Americans, or Italian-Americans or Korean-Americans for that matter, have not been endogamous.  The ancestry that people report in the census, whether they report one or multiple ancestries, is self-reported, subjective, and limited in accuracy.  A majority do not know all the parts of the world their ancestors came from.  By this point, the majority of those with German ancestors also have British ancestors.  The majority of those with British ancestors also have German ancestors.  One could say that perhaps 80% of the population of the United States does not have a plurality of British ancestors, but that is equally meaningless. Satyadasa 10:10, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: British ancestors

message: Where did the author obtain the numbers for immigrant languages? The table in this very same article said that Vietnamese is spoken by 0.385%, Tagalog by 0.467%, while Korean by 0.341%.  Yet the section on immigrant languages list Korean as being spoken by 1.8 million while Vietnamese by 0.8 million, and Tagalog not listed.  See Language Spoken at Home (U.S._Census) and .  If there is no information to back this up, I'm going to change it according to census data.  DHN 01:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Edited to reflect census data . DHN 01:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immigrant languages 

message: Quote 1: "The United States does not have an official language"
Quote 2: "both Spanish and English have the status of official language"
So?--196.40.40.179 03:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where are you getting that from?  The U.S. definitely does not have an official language at the federal level.  At the state level, it's a huge mess, though many states have adopted English as their official language.  --Coolcaesar 05:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The USA have no official language, sorry have two official languages... 

message: See http://www.louisiana.gov/wps/portal/.cmd/cs/.ce/155/.s/3987/_s.155/1135/_me/1135-1133/_mc/3313 - You'd think if Louisiana had an official language, it would list it with its official songs and bird and dog and flower. I'm going to edit out Louisiana from the list of states and territories that are officially bilingual. If someone can provide a citation for official languages of Louisiana, please re-list it. (Note: I don't edit much, so I hope nobody thinks this is rude... If so, sorry. I'm only editing to be cautious.) Bugmuncher 03:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually no. Government web sites (US or otherwise) almost never list official languages. I forget where this info came from, but it was the same source as all the other states. Maybe the World Almanac? kwami 04:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does Louisiana have any official languages?

message: Hey, it seems that multiple sections, including (but not limited to!) the Sign languages section need quite a bit of expansion. I've tagged the sign languages section as such, but lots of these sections look really short, and while we don't need to make them particularly long, more than just a sentence or two might be beneficial. --T. S. Rice 07:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion 

message: This wikipedia page was cited by an article in a current academic journal: Ross E. Mitchell, Travas A. Young, Bellamie Bachleda, Michael A. Karchmer. How Many People Use ASL in the United States? Why Estimates Need Updating. Sign Language Studies 6.3 (2006) 306-335.
The authors discuss the lack of reliable data on the number of ASL users and the widely disparate estimations made on the web (100,000 to 15,000,000). They conclude that no reliable estimate of the number of signers exists, and that most estimates can be traced to two unreliable studies in the 1970s. This wikipedia article, when it was accessed by the author (November 9, 2004), suggested that ASL ranked somewhere between 3rd-most and 10th-most used language in the USA.
Hugs to the contributors to this page! :) ntennis 04:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article cited by academic publication 

message: this article has somewhat of a different list to English-only movement which says that english is official in hawaii, louisiana and new mexico (along with hawaiian, french and spanish respectivly) - here its 'hawaiian english' not english, it says that louisiana has no official language & new mexico isnt listed). Also Alaska is mentioned there as having the "1998 Official English amendment was overturned" and is not listed as having english as an official language --Astrokey44 11:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  official language 

message: Removed from the article:
:"German, although not widely spoken, was the second official language of Pennsylvania until 1950, and"
As far as I can determine, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has never had an official language at all, thus certainly can't have a second one. I would be thrilled if it were true, but apparently it is not. Facts:
*The US census of 1790 found that 25.45% of Pennsylvanians were of "German nationality".
*A Library of Congress exhibit claims that, in 1790, 33% of Pennsylvanians spoke German. This seems to be the maximum proportion of Pennsylvanians who ever spoke German.
*A bill to establish an official language passed Pennsylvania's house in June, and was referred to the Senate's committee on state government. It would seem clear that there is no official language currently.
*My searches at state.pa.gov found no establishment or repeal of an official language of Pennsylvania. It would seem clear that there was never an official language.
Was the writer's intent simply to claim that Pennsylvania had a significant proportion, or at least a significant number, of German speakers until about 1950? I don't know. The burden of proof is not on me. Certainly the German language is significant in Pennsylvania's history, but this is not the right way to say it, and probably not the right place to say it. Unfortunately the "second official language" claim has already spread to the article on Pennsylvania. --Hoziron 15:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: German as Pennsylvania's "second official language"

message: Where does this article get its statistic that 10% of German-descended Americans are able to speak German?  Even if this includes every person who studied the language for one semester in high school, I doubt the number could be that large.  Does it include every G.I. who learned a few curse words while stationed in Germany?  This may sound sarcastic but it's not.  I speak German and rarely meet another German speaker in the States outside my own family: outside of a smattering of Lutheran churches and a few university Goethe houses, the language barely survives at all except in Pennsylvania. Durova 21:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm... from the US Census??? It's what we call a home language mostly, that is, nowadays it is typically spoken by adults with their elderly parents. I'm sure that the number of German speakers in the US will probably have been more than halved by the next census. --Node 14:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  4.7 million German speakers? 

message: The map purporting to show the distribution of Scottish Gaelic actually shows (if its title is correct) the distribution of Irish Gaelic. Angr 07:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...or else it's supposed to show Irish Gaelic.  Gàidhlig probably wouldn't have many North American speakers outside Nova Scotia, though.  It's more likely to be Gaeilge shown on the map. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaelic 

message: Why isn't Tagalog mentioned in either colonial language or pre-colonial language sections. It had speakers living in Lousiana during the colonial era and it became an official language in the Commonwealth of the Philippines, a former territory of the U.S..23prootie 22:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per reasonable request, no objection. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tagalog

message: Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support per nomination. -  AjaxSmack   05:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey