Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One/Archive 1

message: User:Bobo192 proposed the following for driver articles.
=== Drivers ===
Provisional idea only - unapproved (as yet).
There should be a complete article on every driver who has completed in a Formula One race. Information in this article should be set out as follows.
..name.. (born ..month day.. ..year.., died ..month day.. ..year..) is/was a ..nationality.. ..Formula One.. driver.
*information*
And I'm thinking.. as I had set it up on the stubbed guys, there should be some kind of synopsis.
Grands Prix (as of *last race*): a
starts (as of *last race*): b
Pole positions (as of Race:year): c
First Grand Prix: d e (where D=country/circuit and E=year)
Last Grand Prix: f g (where F=country/circuit and G=year)
--Grands Prix participated in-- (change these to equals signs, and rephrase away from sloppiness)
(first Grand Prix) [Date Year (Country/Circuit Grand Prix)] [qualifying position] [qualifying time] [final race position] [points achieved in race] [xxxx (Country) Grand Prix Report]
(second Grand Prix) [Year (Country/Circuit Grand Prix)] [qualifying position] [qualifying time] [final race position] [points achieved in race] [xxxx (Country) Grand Prix Report]
...
(last Grand Prix) [Year (Country/Circuit Grand Prix)] [qualifying position] [qualifying time] [final race position] [points achieved in race] [xxxx (Country) Grand Prix Report]
(complete table)
It looks nasty there, but it'll look prettier when I set the idea up. I'll show you what I have planned for one of the drivers.
(Note: In table form, this'll be sideways instead of downways)
=== An idea for the table ===
Ricardo Patrese:
Race Starts: 256 (or Races 257, if you prefer)
-1-
Race: Monaco Grand Prix 1977 (hyperlinked to race itself)
Date: May 22nd 1977 (not hyperlinked to anything)
Grid: (or Qual) 15 (not hyperlinked - or perhaps, if and when we get it set up, to the qualifying grid embedded in the race itself)
Time: 1 m 32.520 (both hyperlinked to minute (time) and second (time) in the first citation)
Posn: (or something of that sort): 9
Pnts: (in this case) 0
-*Last* (number 257, in actual fact)-
Race: Australian Grand Prix 1993
Date: November 7th 1993
Grid: (or Qual (position on start grid)): 9
Time: 1 m 16.077 s
Posn: (or something of that sort (position at end of race)): 8
Pnts: (in this case) 0
(begin table)
Headings:
Grand Prix Number
Grand Prix
Date
Qualifying Position
Qualifying Time
Grand Prix Final Position
Points in race
1
Grand Prix Of Monaco 1977
May 22nd 1977
15
1:32.560
9
0
...
257
Grand Prix Of Australia 1993
November 7th 1993
9
1:16.077
8
0
I promise I'll get to work on them soon. Read immediately below for my ideas.
=== Ricardo Patrese ===
Grand Prix Number	Grand Prix                 	Date       	Qualifying Position	Qualifying Time	Grand Prix Final Position	Points in race
1                	Grand Prix of Monaco 1977  	May 22 1977	15                 	1:32.520       	9                        	0
2                	Grand Prix of Belgium 1977 	June 5 1977	15                 	1:27.350       	Ret                      	0
N                	Grand Prix of country year>	[date]     	[quali]            	[qualitime]    	[endposition]            	[points]
And then at the bottom:
Pole Positions:
(start)
([year] Grand Prix of.. [circuit/location])
([year] Grand Prix of.. [circuit/location])
(total)
(end)
Victories:
(start)
([year] Grand Prix of.. [circuit/location])
([year] Grand Prix of.. [circuit/location])
(total)
(end)
I think this is worthwhile only for the single-Grand-Prix rookie kids and no-longer-running drivers (which, since I've demonstrated with dear Ricardo..!)
It got placed at the bottom, but you get the idea. Please PM me back if you feel you would like me to change this in any way.
=== Discussion ===
* I think these ideas are excellent, but having a complete list of results for every race entered by every driver might be too tall an order. An infobox on each driver page is, however, an excellent idea - it could have a few basic statistics, such as number of GP's entered, number of wins, and such. — Dan | Talk 22:17, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bobo192's proposal 

message: * I think these ideas are excellent, but having a complete list of results for every race entered by every driver might be too tall an order. An infobox on each driver page is, however, an excellent idea - it could have a few basic statistics, such as number of GP's entered, number of wins, and such. — Dan | Talk 22:17, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: OK, I thought I could get the ball rolling on a shorter infobox for drivers. I've taken the stats from Schumacher's article to come up with this. It's just a rough idea and as you can see, my table editing skills aren't brilliant. Certainly, it would be good if we could get free images of driver's helmets to pretty the infoboxes up. Please feel free to improve it as you wish. SamH 10:23, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created my own take on the infobox. I've tried to keep it as similar as possible to the Constructors infobox for the sake of continuity. doctorvee 22:59, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Drivers infobox proposal

message: Spanish Grand Prix  Circuit de Catalunya
                	
Laps            	65
Circuit length  	4.63 kilometres (2.87 miles)
Race length     	305.26 kilometres (189.78 miles)
2004 Winner     	1:27'32.841 (Michael Schumacher, Ferrari)
2004 Pole       	1'15.022 (Michael Schumacher, Ferrari)
2004 Fastest lap	1'17.450 (Michael Schumacher, Ferrari)
We can't leave the Grands Prix out!
: Hey, I like it! All these are great. Incidentally, where did you get the lap record information and whatnot? Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 16:01, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've been using Formula1.com, FIA.com and a supplement that came with The Guardian. I don't think the supplement is very accurate though, so when implementing these properly I will always check with another source. Lap records can be found on Formula1.com by clicking on the circuit you want information for (eg. ). doctorvee 16:51, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Very good. Again, I can't think of any improvments. SamH 16:38, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: I've added the infobox to Australian Grand Prix. I've added a couple of things to it. I also added the Formula One template, but it looks a little bit uneasy stuck in the middle of the page like that. Thoughts? doctorvee 17:30, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks fine to me. There are other articles, such as rail transport, where there are templates in the middle of the article. SamH 18:08, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I took it out before I saw your message because I figured it was a mistake - I don't think Template:Formula One belongs on any pages but the ones linked on the template itself, simply because the article and the infobox already link to Formula One, and I think the template is rather redundant. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 19:19, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text:  Yeah, the infobox poses a problem for obsolete grands prix. Information such as the number of laps and hence race distance often change anyway, so I think these statistics should only be included in the infobox for grands prix which still exist. I think obsolete grands prix need their own infobox, or perhaps none at all. doctorvee 15:32, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: Good work with the new template. I had no idea you could use a template like that! Perhaps this is the sort of thing we should adopt for all the infoboxes now.
Also, out of interest, where did you get all those logos? Particularly the McLaren one, I've never seen that before. It looks more like something they would have had in the 1980s! doctorvee 21:48, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Twasn't me, though I'd been planning on creating that sort of template (see User:Rdsmith4/Experiments). User:Ed g2s did it all, and I think his template is a lot prettier than mine. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 22:24, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: I've made one for grands prix too - see Template:F1 race. — Dan | Talk 23:16, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I was hoping User:Ed g2s would see that, but I'm not sure he's aware of the WikiProject.. Nice grand prix templates; the Formula One articles are really coming along now! doctorvee 16:55, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template 

message: I think there should be something about safety regulations somewhere - either in the Formula One regulations page, on the Formula One page, Formula One cars page or just as a separate article itself. I was thinking of information on helmet construction, crash tests, wheel tether loadings, roll cage sizes, marshalls, track design?, tyre barriers...maybe a note also about serious crashes if this is not inappropriate. I am willing to do it myself, but don't have much time for a couple of weeks. Let me know if I have just missed the page/section completely! AlbinoMonkey 09:51, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would fit best under Formula One regulations. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 03:17, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: OK - there is heaps of info available at the FIA Website here, if I don't get around to it for a while. The 'regulations' section has sections on driver equipment (helmet, fireproof suits), in-car equipment (fire extinguisher), tyre barrier impact specs, and there is heaps more under the 2005 Technical regulations page. AlbinoMonkey 05:31, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Safety 

message: I had a go at expanding the Christian Klien stub, mainly using information from his own website and GrandPrix.com, but other sources as well. It's a bit bad, as some of the things just run straight into each other (like he raced in one category, finished here. then he went onto something else, and finished there). Also I didn't know what to do with the section headings, because it looked a bit dodgy without any. I can't find a picture of him where I don't need permission to use it, so if someone could find one it would be great. I'm a bit unhappy with the quote impressive speed, because it sounds a bit biased (although I'm not a fan of his...). If anyone can make suggestions or improvements, please do so - its the first major change I've made to a page... but it needed doing. Thanks. --AlbinoMonkey 12:42, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Klien 

message: Does anyone think we need a page dedicated to F1 records?  I have created one on my userpage (here) as a preliminary example. BillCook, 21 Dec 2004
: I don't think there is a page dedicated to it, someone's got a list of M.Schumacher's on his page - but yours looks good. Thumbs up, --AlbinoMonkey 00:20, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  F1 records 

message: Having just stumbled across these pages, I'd like to make a bit of a change to the category structure and figured I'd run it through here to make sure it didn't catch anyone by surprise. Considering the large number of nation-specific articles in :Category:Formula One race reports (and their associated "main" articles in :Category:Formula One Grands Prix) I propose to create individual categories for each nation that has a significant number of such articles. So for example :Category:Argentine Grand Prix would hold Argentine Grand Prix as well as all of the Argentine race reports, and would be subcategorized under Category:Motor racing in Argentina and Category:Formula One Grands Prix. All the race reports would still remain in Category:Formula One race reports. Doing this would make it easy to stick all these articles under their respective national sports categories. If nobody objects, I'll go ahead and do all the grunt work myself. Bryan 07:49, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea to me. — Dan | Talk 15:50, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Category expansion proposal 

message: I'm having a newbie moment... I guess it's like a blonde moment, but in a male. Anyway, how do I join this group? I've been updating many driver bios and I like your templates, but I still think that apart from them there should be some text to accompany them, since there's much more to the driver than the actual template (i.e. what he did before and after F1, dob, dod, etc). 
Diego440 15:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, the template box is in addition to the article. It's just meant to put all the important statistics in one place. To join, just add your name under "members". — Dan | Talk 15:50, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  newbie moment 

message: Once again. I was checking the former driver templates, and I think the template would look good for former GOOD drivers, but there are many drivers who didn't accomplish much, and the template would look to cluttered with zeroes. Nevertheless, did a new template for former drivers, perhaps you'll like it more, or not. I innovated a bit and included "highest qualifying position" and "highest finish position", nationality, teams, and points. What do you think?
* I've just posted about this situation too. That template is much better for some drivers. Hedley 15:38, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  2nd proposal 

message: For future consideration, we need more info on parallel Formulas, such as Formula Ford, Formula Renault, Formula 5000 and others, since when you're reading a F1 pilot bio, they usually start out in these minor championships. Now, there is more than enough info on karting, formula junior and many others, and that's greatly appreciated. Still, I'm not demanding anyone to do it, but if you have the info or can find it, go right ahead and post it. I'm quite occupied at the moment with former pilot's bios and will later go ahead with the former team's bios, probably. OK, there's my talk. Diego440 13:13, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  other Formula 

message: The former driver template is good for drivers like Ayrton Senna who won lots of races, but its not much use to drivers who didn't have much success during their career. I have just added it to an article i'm working on, Esteban Tuero, and having a list of 0's doesn't look very good. The 'First win', 'Last win' also looks stupid there as he never won any races.
Maybe there should be an extra template for drivers who weren't too successful? A 'best finish' line might be better than the first/last win part for drivers like Tuero. Hedley 15:37, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former driver template - Biased to success 

message: Esteban Tuero. I think that it includes whats necessary - Pictures, early career, his F1 career, and post F1 career. Maybe a bit exhaustive for what a 'typical good article' should look like but nevertheless, i'd like to know if it can be improved.
:I've not read the article yet, but some references are needed, and the images need source and copyright info. SamH|Talk 20:54, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this a 'good article'? 

message: Upon consultation with admins i've been given the go-ahead, and have gone ahead in adding a new stub for motorsport. With other sports such as cricket and American football having stubs motorsport clearly needed one, and I thought i'd post here for anyone writing F1-related stubs.
The new tag is , and it covers all forms of motorsport. To use it just type  at the end of the article. Hedley 23:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Stub 

message: And now, upon recommendation, there is an F1 stub tag for articles related to F1. You can use it by typing  at the end of a stub article.
:And if you want to keep it, you'd better use it. Since there had been <30 articles listed on it, there was a suggestion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting to have it wiped (along with several other "unneeded" categories). I found about 75 articles in an hour which should have had  messages and didn't, and I'm sure there's a ton more out there. - SoM 17:17, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  F1 stub tag 

message: What's the correct link for the Amon team from the 1970s? Several pages have linked to Amon, which doesn't even have a disambiguating link to the right place. A few others link direct to Chris Amon, which only briefly mentions the team. --ScottDavis 11:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably best to create a new article for it. Amon (Formula One team) perhaps? doctorvee 19:35, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amon team page? 

message: I've just made the article thats on the Open Tasks box which was under 'Needs to be created', Christian Horner. Do I go ahead and remove it from the template, or do I wait for someone else to do it? I'm not too sure. Hedley 23:34, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, feel free to remove it yourself, and feel free to add more requests in its place. — Dan | Talk 04:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Open Tasks 

message: Hello. I'm just stopping in here because I noticed a lot of these pages have the term 'climax' wikilinked. I have no idea what it means in racing terms, but the links are going to a disambig, which has made it one of the most linked to disambigs. Someone might want to look into that soon. --InShaneee 15:18, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah it's probably links in the race results to Coventry Climax... I haven't got time to do it for a while, but will have a go if its not all changed by the time I get a chance. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 06:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Climax]] 

message: Seems to have lost its format somewhere. I've tagged it for cleanup but the usual infoboxes don't seem present right now. Hedley 12:41, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ronnie Peterson]] 

message: I'm after some advice on this section. (see for example Jenson Button#Complete Formula One results)
* Is this now the accepted way of presenting a driver's racing history? (Personally I prefer it to anything else I've seen)
* When a driver hasn't raced, should the race really not be linked? I tried putting it in italics -- see Nick Heidfeld, year 2000, race 8, Canada -- but it's not as clear as it is when not linked. Compare to Jenson's 2003 Monaco - but it is nice to be able to go straight to the race.
* Should we put blank lines when a driver is out of F1 for a few years (eg Alexander Wurz)?
NickF 21:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There should maybe be a 'DNQ' availability too, as for some drivers their whole career was in and out of DNQ's which are otherwise noted as did not compete. Sospiri in Australia '97 is different is a did not compete for Sato in Malaysia '04, or a did not compete for Schumacher during '99. Hedley 16:08, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: In the case of a driver not competing for a few years, like in Wurz' case, the line should not be there at all. Hedley 16:11, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: DSQ could perhaps be black? doctorvee 01:48, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: like this?: -slowpokeiv 17:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Driver - "Complete Formula One results" section 

message: Why are the scottish and english flags used instead of the Union flag? What's the reasoning behind this since they're all classified as GBR, and we have the British grand prix, not English. -- Joolz 11:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I had wondered that myself. I think the television graphics also use the Union flag. I think it is best to use the Union flag. doctorvee 17:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Good question, but ask a Scottsman, and they would probably call themself Scottish, not British or English, and as such, the Scottish flag might be more appropriate. However, for Button and any other English drivers, the Union Jack might be better, or at least more recognizable, in my opinion. slowpokeiv 20:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhm, you're working on the assumption that most scottish people don't want to be part of Britain and most english people do, neither of which are neccessarily true. Regardless of the accuracy of that, I don't think we can just cherrypick the drivers views to decide which flag we should use. Whether they want to be called Scottish/English or whatever isn't really relevent in my opinion, if there was a hawaiian driver would we fly the hawaiian flag for them? -- Joolz 22:14, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should be the Union Jack - that's what's flown if they're on the podium, that's what's used on the TV graphics (and their passports probably say "British"!). And that's what I put on the 2005 San Marino Grand Prix when I first added the flags... NickF 18:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I’ll agree that one can't (or shouldn’t) pick and choose on a driver by driver basis. Never the less, Scotland is different than Hawaii, as it is its own country, currently in a personal union with England. (formalized in 1707) Separate countries should qualify for separate flags in the wikipedia, in my opinion. Whether the FIA recognizes this or not should be irrelevant. If however, it is determined that we do not wish to make that distinction, I beg you pardon my intrusion. slowpokeiv 19:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on how you define "country". Scotland is much more of a nation rather than a country. If you read the first sentence of the country article, Scotland does not fulfill all of those criteria. The drivers in question will carry British, not Scottish or English, passports. doctorvee 20:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question. How do we define Nationality? (a required field in the former drivers template.) Should English (1, 2, 3), Scottish (4, 5, 6), and Northern Irish (7) be considered Nationalities, or should all drivers GBR be classified British?(8, 9, 10) Currently, there are examples of all four "Nationalities", which in my mind is incorrect. However, as I have no connections to the United Kingdom closer than John of Gaunt, I feel unqualified to make the decision as to which is more correct. (For that matter, it may be as I am so far removed from the situation, that I am not seeing what is obvious to one less removed.) Nevertheless, as my record has shown a distinct tendancy to standardize articles, I will stick to cleaning up these articles in the direction chosen, whichever direction that may be. slowpokeiv 14:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text:  I am a Scotsman, and I'd rather have the Union Jack thank you very much. doctorvee 18:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree with the Union Jack for all simply because thats whats flown on the podium. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 01:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Not that many people voted. And changing halfway through a season is not an especially good idea. Personally, I think that the Saltire/St George's Cross should be used as appropriate - SoM 22:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no vote, as far as I can see a poll would be unneccessary because most people agree that the Union flag should be used - and the simple solution to changing halfway through a season is to just change all the other races. -- Joolz 23:16, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Button has always used a modified version of the Union Jack (modified to create a clever 'JB' symbol within it). Drivers' helmets are not an indication of their nationality, otherwise a flag with a pink squiggle would have been raised on the podium when Jacques Villeneuve won races. doctorvee 15:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Button used the same style but applied it to St. George's Cross at the 2004 British GP. violet/riga (t) 16:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text:  Run a helmet up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it. (SEWilco 20:56, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My point was that Coulthard, at least, seems to self-identify as Scottish rather than British. But I think it's probably not the driver's decision to make. Pburka 16:46, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Flags

message: I've just started the tobacco advertising article and have written some details about the tobacco sponsorship of F1.  It's somewhat vague at the moment and has massive gaps.  I don't think it needs to be a full and complete history of the link, but some people may wish to take a look and add any important points to it.  Cheers, violet/riga (t) 23:14, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tobacco sponsorship