Talk:Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)/Archive 2

message: i.e. Poland, people that signed Volksliste were subject of legal persecutions as a traitors. They were also subject to death penalty during the war. We should put this detail to the article.
===Volksdeutsche=== were subject of severe persecutions in Eastern Europe. I tries to make an article World War II traitors hunt. They were persecuted as traitors, not as Germans. It is not fair to put them as German victims, without stating what was the problem.
===Some of Volksdeutsche were not ethnic Germans.=== In Poland there were 2.8 milions of Volksdeutche, while pre-WW2 German population were around 1 milion.
Polish Volksdeutsche were more persecuted then German Volksdeutsche. Are we going to put them as Germans killed after WW2 or we state the truth? For example, the Lambinowice camp were for Silesians, partly positively verified afterwards. Killed there people can be shown as an example of Stalinist persecution of Poles or Germans killed by Poles. Wouldn't be better to state truth? Cautious 11:57, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, there were lots of people forced to sign the Volksliste, most notably in the areas incorporated into the Reich and Tatra mountains. My friends' grandpa served in an Afrika Corps batallion where some 30% of soldiers were Poles from the area of Silesia, Bydgoszcz and Torun who were given an alternative of either being sent to Wehrmacht or Concentration camps. The main source of manpower for the polish armies fighting in the west were the POW camps - both German POW camps for Polish soldiers and Allied POW camps for German soldiers. (see: Wladyslaw Anders, Bez ostatniego rozdziału)Halibutt 12:09, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnic Germans versus citziens of Germany.

message: The article son't mention the ongoing deportation of Germans and Volksdeutche to Siberia. ===Cautious 12:41, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How about it? Isn't it too detailed?Halibutt 12:48, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Siberia deportations

message: I think that approximately 5 milions escaped, 5 milions were transfered. Unknown number includes people deported to Siberia. If we come with 15 milion number, it means that approximately 5 milions emigrated when it was already forbidden. (Escaped, emigrated after W.Germany-Poland treaties and so on)   +  
Cautious 09:48, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbers involved

message: If we want to cover the whole subject, evacuation must be described in details. i.e decision of creation festung Breslau was followed with evacuation of 90% of dwellers (1943 - neraly 1 milion people, 1945 100 000 people). Cautious 09:48, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Evacuation is included?

message: User:Cautious's call (above) for banning his opponent User:Nico from discussions, and his repeated revertions to own version, without discussing it here, is maybe a habit which could be better adopted to a cooperative modus vivendi?
--Ruhrjung 13:01, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: All about Nico, Cautious and other users

message: Maybe, Sudeten Nazi POV. Quite interesting reading
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/sginferno/sgi00.html
81.27.192.18 10:24, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: How history looks like from Sudeten nationalists POV

message: I removed rather extensive edits with several different controversial assertions, from an anonymous (Earthlink/Mindspring) contributor who elsewhere chiefly have added the claim that the Baltic peoples were "Germans".
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=3064106&oldid=3064076
I suspect this being an example of pushing one's own point of view.
--Ruhrjung 06:36, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Both Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Lev Kopelev during their Soviet military service had objected to the brutal murder of German civilians of East Prussia. For that both were put in Siberian Gulag for 10 years. There Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn memorized and later documented his experiences in the military as well as in the Gulag. Lev Kopelev wrote the book about these brutal events in East Prussia called To Be Preserved Forever (Khranit' Venchno).
I don't know if that's motivated or not. I just think the removal ought to be documented here.
--Ruhrjung 09:18, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of controversial edits 

message: Expulsion of Germans after World War II refers to the mass deportation (generally considered ethnic cleansing) of Germans living in the eastern part of Germany lost after WW2, as was ordered by the Potsdam Conference. 
Factual problems: there is no consensus, that it was an ethnic cleansing and obviously, it was not limited to former German territories. Even if refer to former German territories, it is not clear, what is meant. 
(It remaindes me the pre-WW2 joke: "German teacher: Hans, please show me the borders of Germany. Hans: Herr Lehrer, I haven't read todays newspapers yet") Nico wants Eastern Germany to refer to 1914 borders, some discuss 1939, 1937 or 1944 borders. Cautious 07:42, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The present header seems rather acceptable to me. Does anyone have any problems with it?Halibutt 07:51, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Header again

message: **I disagree. The second is dealing with the expulsion based on Potdsam agreement, while the latter is about the WW2 evacuation of civilian populations. Opposite is true: we should truly divide subject between those 2 articles, and add main article, that deals with the whole process (but I have no idea, what should be the name of main article) Cautious 14:55, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: I am preparing the new article, dealing with the whole process
User_talk:Cautious/Dawn_of_German_East, while 
Expulsion of Germans after World War II should remain the description of one of the phases of the process.
Please contribute your comments. Cautious 07:50, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  New head article 

message: OK, here are some casualities 
Vertreibungsverluste:
Tote und Vermißte während der Vertreibung
*Aus den Ostgebieten des Deutschen Reiches	1.225.000
*Tschechoslowakei	267.000
*Aus den übrigen Ländern	619.000
Gesamt: 2.111.000
Die Gesamtverluste betragen 3.211.000 (Kriegsverluste 1.100.000 und Vertreibungsverluste 2.111.000). Von den 1939 in den Vertreibungsgebieten ansässigen Deutschen ist somit jeder Fünfte gefallen oder umgekommen. 
Nico 01:37, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It should however be clearly linked within this article, as those seeking information on the general movement of Germans to the west after the second world war would probably first find this article. 
----
Those figures from Ostpreussennrw.de - what are they based on? Do they include civilians killed by Soviet armed forces during the war? Or killed by allied bombing? Or died due to food shortages in Europe?
Ostpreussenrw.de is a pressure group representing displaced Germans and their relatives. Not a neutral site!
Exile 20:49, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Casualities

message: I came across this page and noted that its NPOV disputes seem to have calmed down.  Therefore, I made an effort to improve the language.  Almost all changes were purely to bring the article to standard written English.  If I made any errors that changed the meaning, those were unintentional. Gwimpey 06:09, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language cleanup