Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 3

message: So, sam, are you going to discuss this in a civilised manner? CheeseDreams 22:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea what you mean, but I do intend to be polite, reasonable and helpful, as is my nature :). Sam [Spade] 22:24, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Yes, I should explain why. The article should present the views of different scholars in detail and what they think. It should not be a pamphlet that you copied from anti-Christian web sites where the article is trying to prove that Jesus is a pagan myth.  OneGuy 01:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: if you actually read the above sections, you will note that I will be putting other views in, and am aware it is POV at the moment. Also note that if you are explaining why because you put the totally disputed notice on. Then you are Sam. Therefore you are misrepresenting yourself by using a different username. I will mention in the other places that you have commented that you are Sam Spade. CheeseDreams 08:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am Sam Spade?? LOL. No, I am not Sam Spade. Now is your accusation that I am Sam Spade a Personal attack or what?OneGuy 10:45, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: CheeseDreams, sock puppetry accusations are considered very grave here. Please don't make them unless you are absolutely sure and have convincing evidence. Gady 12:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Are they? In that case, ill make a file. CheeseDreams 20:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Explain what, that you made a crazy mess of this page? What I aught to do is list it on Vfd. Sam [Spade] 21:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, why you think it is factually inaccurate, and non-NPOV, since you added the tag stating that you did. CheeseDreams 22:23, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text:  Vfd= DELETE THE WHOLE ARTICLE. To state that there ought (aught=nothing (the word is usually used by those with a strong northern scottish accent - do you have one?)) to be no article about "Historicity of Jesus" is tantamount to stating that the Historicity of Jesus ought not to be discussed, which is absolutely massively extreme POV. CheeseDreams 22:23, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: No, thats only stating what we already know you would like. We need to know WHY. CheeseDreams 23:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protectionism 

message: I copied CheeseDreams' version into a new page, Historicity of Jesus/New version. CheeseDreams, please work on the temporary page, and when you are done copy the results to the existing page (assuming people agree). Others, please comment on Talk:Historicity of Jesus/New version. Can some admin unprotect the page so it can be returned to a stable version in the meantime? Gady 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: CheeseDreams, you simply cannot leave an important page in a "work in progress" state for a week. There is absolutely no justification for that. Use the subpage. I am doing the same in another page as we speak. Gady 12:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the page ought to be reverted to a stable version with the rewrite going on in parallel on the temp page. CheeseDreams, if you want, we could put the NPOV notice, followed by a notice that work is proceding at Historicity of Jesus/New version, so that that page is available to the reader as well. We did the same thing when I rewrote Shroud of Turin. We edit it as a temp article until there is concensus, then ask an admin to move it, so as to preserve the edit history. Mpolo 13:19, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Do you have enough tags on the top of this page? Maybe we could drag out some more! Mark Richards 18:47, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  New version 

message: I warned you that reverting the page as soon as it was unprotected would just result in the page being protected again. You should have listened.
If you think an article is a mess. Tidy it up.
Grow up. Don't delete articles because you don't like the facts expressed in them, and prefer the cosy POV of earlier versions which had NPOV issues. CheeseDreams 23:50, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I was referring to when it is unprotectedCheeseDreams 08:23, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Once again, the article was half way through a re-write, and I was about to tidy it up substantially before a revert war happend and consequently protection occurred (the first time). After it was unprotected, I attempted to start tidying it up again (look at the history if you don't believe me), but a revert war happened producing the current protection. CheeseDreams 23:57, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I believe you to be the sort of fundamentalist that misrepresents themselves in order to appear to have a disinterested stance, thus able to persuade weak-willed editors that their views are unreasonable (see User:Rednblu for this tactic, and various comments about it in his talk page archives, and on an ongoing RfC) CheeseDreams 02:04, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: I have had a brief look at it. The sources section has already been merged with the appropriate article and just contains duplicate information - I have already written a summary (but it, along with everything else, has been reverted during the revert row). I will try to merge his other changes into the version I am working on where appropriate - the article (of his), as it stands is currently a restructuring of the intermediate article, with a bit of content added - I have added more content and fleshed out some outlines, resulting in other, earlier (in date) sections consisting predominantly of duplication.CheeseDreams 08:22, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protectionism Again 

message: It looks like this is another example of CheeseDreams hijacking a good article.  Historicity of Jesus originally had the simple objective of laying out arguments/evidence for and against the existence of Jesus.  This is plenty for an article to do and all this article need do.  But now I look at it nd the first several sections of the article are on other divinities that have nothing at all to do with the historicity of Jesus.  Look, I understnad the argument that the Jesus myth that developed in the ancient near East was syncreticitic.  But this shouold simply be ANOTHER ARTICLE.  Not this one.  Let's u block the article, move all material on synretism to its own, linked article, and restore the arguments over whether or not Jesus exited to this article.  DOes this make sense?  Why would anyone be oppoese? Slrubenstein
:This assessment (suffering from heavy verbosity) is 100% refuted. CheeseDreams 12:12, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  thrice blah 

message: ::::W.r.t. gnosticism, its a bit of a mess in my head at the moment, as I'm still trying to work out how to describe the James the Just vs. Paul argument w.r.t. the Ebionites and the Essenes. And how Ebionites vs. gnostics vs. early christians works, as most of the texts on these things have them all jumbled up everywhere, rather than a nice encyclopedic summary.
::::Oh, the title of the section is poor, I don't like the title being "gnosticism", but I haven't thought of a sensible replacement title yet (as opposed to paragraph long ones)
::::But essentially the arguments are thus (the order is sort-of chronological, and I still havent worked out which arrangement flows best) (p.s. its quite useful drawing this list up actually)
::::Acts and how it describes Paul's actions (and how his account is different) - power struggle of Paul vs. James, the nazoreans, James-ian christianity and its relation to the essenes, later christian attempts to see if their teaching deviated from the apostles (by searching for the church of Jerusalem, and only finding the ebionites (who were "heretics") - and the implications thereof)
::::Pauline epistles (1) (1st group of epistles - those generally considered genuine) - summary description of their general theology, lack of flesh-and-blood-ness of Jesus in them, similarities to gnostic views
::::Pauline epistles (2) incl. pastorals - essentially historiography - even early scholars (i.e. 2nd century) thought these dubious based on textual criticism etc. rather than their religious POV, show how they differ with the other paul, thus their evidence is doubted by some scholars
::::Mark & secret teachings - e.g. Secret Gospel of Mark (aside from much mention of "secrets" in the normal gospel, and mysterious obscure cryptic statements in it), Thomas Didymous (literally "twin twin" and the  significance of the twin in gnosticism), the naked youth at gethsemene(and associated other/identical naked/semi-naked youths elsewhere - e.g. at the tomb of Jesus) and the potential mystery religion meaning thereof, and how this indicates Mystery religion.
::::Synoptics - markan priority + Q (compare Gospel of Thomas) + Matthewian additions + Lukan additions- how Q is just a series of wisdom from many sources (including Aesop) that someone added the name Jesus to at some point - how the Matthewian and Lukan additions don't match (i.e. how they could just be made up or syncretisms based on the "well we don't actually care about whether it is true, so it doesn't matter what stories we use" principle)
::::John - essentially a summary of the relevant part of Authorship of John (that link is a redirect - I can't spell the other word properly) - i.e. that John may not have written it, it doesn't match the synoptics (and differs on important points), it does match 2nd century anti-heretical texts (e.g. the first paragraph 100% defeats arianism - so its odd that arianism even existed if the gospel did), it may be a forgery, so some scholars think it unreliable - i.e a historiography discussion
::::Other Epistles - historiography again
::::Apocalypse of John-the-Divine - deconstructionism as a set of Jewish tales from the OT + anti-Rome polemic + Jesus, Mary, etc. references which look like syncretisms from Mystery religions (e.g. Mary with the moon at her feet etc.)
::::Persecution - explaining why the gnostics are not the orthodoxy now - cerinthus quote (the one that goes something like "people who take it literally are thick and lazy, but I guess thats why its popular") - ecumenical councils (rules and enforcement of exile to those who disagree) - Cathars and the EVIL albigensian crusade (and other inqusitions).
::::And Clement of Alexandria, Cerinthus, Origen and Marcion need to fit in there somehow, especially the first two.
::::There is quite a lot of material there, and it will probably be best to become a daughter article once it is put together.
::::Does that all make sense? CheeseDreams 00:22, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I haven't read it at all. It seems to be referenced a lot on the web though. My familiarity with this subject area comes from my background as associating with some of the UK's top theologians who would constantly go on about this sort of thing (particularly the Albigensian crusade). CheeseDreams 12:20, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The section currently known as "gnosticism" 

message: I notice we NOW have , , ,  and two  tags on the article now! At least two can be removed, them being the attention and cleanup notices. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:48, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the heck?! 

message: I have reverted back to the material before CheeseDreams slapped an entirely new article on top of this one! This is totally unacceptable because it makes it extremely hard for anyone to now sort out this whole mess. If CheeseDreams wants to add material, then she is going to have to incorporate it into the article. Not add a brand new article on the top of this one! Also, I unprotected the page as this has been in a protected state and yet is unreadable because of the edits that were made. I advise people to refrain from adding CheeseDreams article on to the top of this one, but advise them to incorporate it into the article if they feel that material has been lost. Be warned though, I read quite a bit of her material and I don't see what it has to do with Jesus. It appears to be broader material, written from her POV. It also isn't referenced. I'll be watching what gets entered. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm. Have just noticed Historicity of Jesus/. Anyway, the page is unlocked now. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:20, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of my revert