Talk:Gohatto

message: :Image:Gohatto Poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 18:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Gohatto Poster.jpg

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: Page moved. The only argument against moving is based on numbers and comes from an editor who has since been banned. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 04:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Taboo (1999 film) →  –  elvenscout742 (talk) 13:29, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Support, per WP:PRECISION. "Taboo" is ambiguous, so must be qualified, "Gohatto" (a name used in English sources as well) does not require artificial qualification. "If it exists, choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title." So even if Taboo is more commonly used (the possible outcome of the initial discussion below), Gohatto is preferred on Wikipedia. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Any additional comments:
*Comment - can the proposer please explain what evidence there is that the film was not released under the title "Taboo" or that "Taboo" is not a common English name of the film? The same search applied to the title in reverse, "Taboo" Oshima -gohatto, gives us more hits than the above search which the proposer uses as evidence. Also the film posters that the proposer says indicate that the film's official title is "Gohatto" in roman letters all also have the kanji name 御法度 on them. The Japanese wikipedia claims the title is 御法度 too, and it also gives the English title as "Taboo". There is no mention of the title being romanized. And note that sometimes Japanese films are released with a romanized title or English title, e.g. Love Letter, which was released in cinemas in Japan with the title "Love Letter", so there is no reason "gohatto" is not possible. Even more, the link that is supposed to be about China seems to link to an episode of "Friends" (I didn't actually view the video to confirm this, but it says Chandler & Joey play some foosball for some cash but Chandler on purposely trys to lose.). Can the proposer clarify? I feel this is unconvincing, but I will give the proposer a chance to explain what I am misunderstanding before definitely voting here. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The film was released as Taboo in the United States, but as Gohatto in the United Kingdom. The Google Books searches indicate that Gohatto is the more prominent title for the film in reliable English sources. The search you cite above, as I have already pointed out in move request, is flawed in that a significant number of the sources are not about this film, but merely use the word "taboo" in relation to one or more of Oshima's more famous films (this is why they also don't use the word "Gohatto". Additionally, Japanese Wikipedia is not a reliable source -- anyone can add any information they like to it, and an ISP account mentioning that a Japanese film is known by such-and-such a name in the United States is equivalent to me adding "Japanese title: 声をかくす人 Koe o kakusu hito" to the article on The Conspirator. The Japanese article in its original form gave the name "Gohatto" in roman letters. It is entirely possible that the anon who added "Taboo" to the Japanese article was under the mistaken belief that "Taboo" was some kind of official English title and "Gohatto" wasn't, and wanted to balance the article. This is why we shouldn't trust Japanese Wikipedia. The video I linked to as a joke entirely separate from the move request. The search for poster images brought up a Chinese poster that seemed like a fun aside, and I thought "The film is also known as Gohatto in .. China .. apparently" which brought a line from Friends to my mind and a smile to my lips. I lucked out that the clip was on YouTube. The link to the actual poster image, like all my other actual sources, is at the end of the sentence. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:05, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

text: To clarify, only 4 of the first 10 hits for ["Taboo" Oshima -gohatto are about this film and give "Taboo" as the title. 2 (for some reason) give "Gohatto" as the title and merely state that "Gohatto means 'taboo'"; 1 is completely unrelated to the subject, as it is a different Oshima and a different taboo being discussed; and 3 are about the filmmaker Nagisa Oshima and how his earlier much more famous film Realm of the Senses broke "taboos" about portraying sex in cinema. Therefore, while it's easy to assume that any English-language source that uses the words "Gohatto" and "Oshima" together is referring to this film, in order to find sources that specifically call the film "Taboo" rather than "Gohatto" we have to apply the slightly more restrictive parameter of including the year of the film's release. If this seems unfair it can be pointed out that with the same restriction "Gohatto" still comes out on top. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:21, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is related to the use of the word "Taboo" about other films. Changing the search to "Taboo Ryuhei Matsuda Oshima" and "Gohatto Ryuhei Matsuda Oshima" doesn't change the ratio, the "Taboo" version comes out at about the same ratio of hits. Realistically, "Taboo" is the more common name on Google searches. JoshuSasori (talk) 01:55, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Taboo Ryuhei Matsuda Oshima" brings up about 80% fewer results than  "Gohatto Oshima -Taboo". "Gohatto Ryuhei Matsuda Oshima" still brings up at least as many results. And your search still includes books about Japanese cinema and/or Oshima's work in general that just happen to use the word "taboo" at some point in the text. I am beginning to notice why you never provide links to diffs, etc., since the actual evidence never supports your conclusions. I would also like to see your evidence that Taboo is "the more common name on Google searches" -- Wikipedia doesn't use general Google searches (do you mean GBooks searches?) and it also doesn't use Wikipedia mirrors as sources, so you always need to block Wikipedia from your search. elvenscout742 (talk) 02:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh my gosh, that's a personal attack, I shall immediately report you on the administrator's noticeboard. JoshuSasori (talk) 02:43, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, what personal attack? I just pointed out, as an admin and several others before me, that your failure to actually cite evidence is kind of frustrating. Of course, it is possible that you are referring to the fact that I reported you on ANI because you made a veiled threat and have been calling me names for a month now. If you are sarcastically referring to that, then rather you are the one relying on ad hominem arguments than objective evidence. elvenscout742 (talk) 02:52, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Actually, I wanted to get a mention of the fact that no one outside North America refers to the films by your name into the article. I was, however, coincidentally moving to get MOSFILM and NCF amended so all of these articles get moved to their actual official titles. I think the fact that I didn't make requested moves at both of those articles to their official titles shows that this has nothing to do with my personal POV, as I have made that POV clear throughout. elvenscout742 (talk) 08:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a horrible change to NCF/MOSFILM, and would contravene WP:PRECISE and WP:UCN and WP:OFFICIALNAME. It doesn't matter what official names are, as we operate on common names. Further many official names are horribly long, and we use shorter forms frequently, especially for some films that have paragraph sized titles. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 00:46, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a problem with that, please discuss it on WT:FILM or with the various users I was discussing it with there. This page is for discussion of this film, where your points clearly do not apply: the romanized Japanese title (which does appear romanized in official media, by the way) is 7 letters; the American title with disambiguator (including spaces) is 17. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't opened any such proposal at WPFILM -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 15:30, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't, because I am not a member of WPFILM. Other regular members of WPFILM indicated that this will probably be done in the near future, though, since articles on films under their official titles have been tending to get promoted to GA and FA status of late. Additionally, your constant opposition to all of these moves is ignoring the spirit of WP:UE, which specifically states that only words and names that are very commonly known and used in English should "use English". elvenscout742 (talk) 01:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The constant opposition to all these moves is all in your head. I did not oppose this particular move at all. Your statement that you shouldn't use titles found in the English-language market is what I oppose. Since this film was released as Gohatto in the English-language market, it is one of the viable titles, along with Taboo. That you would say that only official names of the original release should be used is what I find objectionable. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 05:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You must learn to distinguish between the expression of personal preference and the quotation of policy. You don't actually look like you know more about policy when you hijack a move request in order to attack me for my personal opinion. The statement you are referring to was my personal preference, and it is also a growing preference among Wikipedians in general and WPFilm members in particular. Therefore, I was merely pointing out that we can expect the policy on this issue to change in the near future to reflect actual consensus among the Wikipedia community. My actual arguments in this case have, however, been based entirely in reliable sources and objective evidence, so your nitpicking my wording is just ridiculous. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Salvidrim (talk • contribs) 04:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested move

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Support, per WP:PRECISION. "Taboo" is ambiguous, so must be qualified, "Gohatto" (a name used in English sources as well) does not require artificial qualification. "If it exists, choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title." So even if Taboo is more commonly used (the possible outcome of the initial discussion below), Gohatto is preferred on Wikipedia. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Any additional comments:
*Comment - can the proposer please explain what evidence there is that the film was not released under the title "Taboo" or that "Taboo" is not a common English name of the film? The same search applied to the title in reverse, "Taboo" Oshima -gohatto, gives us more hits than the above search which the proposer uses as evidence. Also the film posters that the proposer says indicate that the film's official title is "Gohatto" in roman letters all also have the kanji name 御法度 on them. The Japanese wikipedia claims the title is 御法度 too, and it also gives the English title as "Taboo". There is no mention of the title being romanized. And note that sometimes Japanese films are released with a romanized title or English title, e.g. Love Letter, which was released in cinemas in Japan with the title "Love Letter", so there is no reason "gohatto" is not possible. Even more, the link that is supposed to be about China seems to link to an episode of "Friends" (I didn't actually view the video to confirm this, but it says Chandler & Joey play some foosball for some cash but Chandler on purposely trys to lose.). Can the proposer clarify? I feel this is unconvincing, but I will give the proposer a chance to explain what I am misunderstanding before definitely voting here. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The film was released as Taboo in the United States, but as Gohatto in the United Kingdom. The Google Books searches indicate that Gohatto is the more prominent title for the film in reliable English sources. The search you cite above, as I have already pointed out in move request, is flawed in that a significant number of the sources are not about this film, but merely use the word "taboo" in relation to one or more of Oshima's more famous films (this is why they also don't use the word "Gohatto". Additionally, Japanese Wikipedia is not a reliable source -- anyone can add any information they like to it, and an ISP account mentioning that a Japanese film is known by such-and-such a name in the United States is equivalent to me adding "Japanese title: 声をかくす人 Koe o kakusu hito" to the article on The Conspirator. The Japanese article in its original form gave the name "Gohatto" in roman letters. It is entirely possible that the anon who added "Taboo" to the Japanese article was under the mistaken belief that "Taboo" was some kind of official English title and "Gohatto" wasn't, and wanted to balance the article. This is why we shouldn't trust Japanese Wikipedia. The video I linked to as a joke entirely separate from the move request. The search for poster images brought up a Chinese poster that seemed like a fun aside, and I thought "The film is also known as Gohatto in .. China .. apparently" which brought a line from Friends to my mind and a smile to my lips. I lucked out that the clip was on YouTube. The link to the actual poster image, like all my other actual sources, is at the end of the sentence. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:05, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: To clarify, only 4 of the first 10 hits for ["Taboo" Oshima -gohatto are about this film and give "Taboo" as the title. 2 (for some reason) give "Gohatto" as the title and merely state that "Gohatto means 'taboo'"; 1 is completely unrelated to the subject, as it is a different Oshima and a different taboo being discussed; and 3 are about the filmmaker Nagisa Oshima and how his earlier much more famous film Realm of the Senses broke "taboos" about portraying sex in cinema. Therefore, while it's easy to assume that any English-language source that uses the words "Gohatto" and "Oshima" together is referring to this film, in order to find sources that specifically call the film "Taboo" rather than "Gohatto" we have to apply the slightly more restrictive parameter of including the year of the film's release. If this seems unfair it can be pointed out that with the same restriction "Gohatto" still comes out on top. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:21, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is related to the use of the word "Taboo" about other films. Changing the search to "Taboo Ryuhei Matsuda Oshima" and "Gohatto Ryuhei Matsuda Oshima" doesn't change the ratio, the "Taboo" version comes out at about the same ratio of hits. Realistically, "Taboo" is the more common name on Google searches. JoshuSasori (talk) 01:55, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Taboo Ryuhei Matsuda Oshima" brings up about 80% fewer results than  "Gohatto Oshima -Taboo". "Gohatto Ryuhei Matsuda Oshima" still brings up at least as many results. And your search still includes books about Japanese cinema and/or Oshima's work in general that just happen to use the word "taboo" at some point in the text. I am beginning to notice why you never provide links to diffs, etc., since the actual evidence never supports your conclusions. I would also like to see your evidence that Taboo is "the more common name on Google searches" -- Wikipedia doesn't use general Google searches (do you mean GBooks searches?) and it also doesn't use Wikipedia mirrors as sources, so you always need to block Wikipedia from your search. elvenscout742 (talk) 02:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh my gosh, that's a personal attack, I shall immediately report you on the administrator's noticeboard. JoshuSasori (talk) 02:43, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, what personal attack? I just pointed out, as an admin and several others before me, that your failure to actually cite evidence is kind of frustrating. Of course, it is possible that you are referring to the fact that I reported you on ANI because you made a veiled threat and have been calling me names for a month now. If you are sarcastically referring to that, then rather you are the one relying on ad hominem arguments than objective evidence. elvenscout742 (talk) 02:52, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Actually, I wanted to get a mention of the fact that no one outside North America refers to the films by your name into the article. I was, however, coincidentally moving to get MOSFILM and NCF amended so all of these articles get moved to their actual official titles. I think the fact that I didn't make requested moves at both of those articles to their official titles shows that this has nothing to do with my personal POV, as I have made that POV clear throughout. elvenscout742 (talk) 08:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a horrible change to NCF/MOSFILM, and would contravene WP:PRECISE and WP:UCN and WP:OFFICIALNAME. It doesn't matter what official names are, as we operate on common names. Further many official names are horribly long, and we use shorter forms frequently, especially for some films that have paragraph sized titles. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 00:46, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a problem with that, please discuss it on WT:FILM or with the various users I was discussing it with there. This page is for discussion of this film, where your points clearly do not apply: the romanized Japanese title (which does appear romanized in official media, by the way) is 7 letters; the American title with disambiguator (including spaces) is 17. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't opened any such proposal at WPFILM -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 15:30, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't, because I am not a member of WPFILM. Other regular members of WPFILM indicated that this will probably be done in the near future, though, since articles on films under their official titles have been tending to get promoted to GA and FA status of late. Additionally, your constant opposition to all of these moves is ignoring the spirit of WP:UE, which specifically states that only words and names that are very commonly known and used in English should "use English". elvenscout742 (talk) 01:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The constant opposition to all these moves is all in your head. I did not oppose this particular move at all. Your statement that you shouldn't use titles found in the English-language market is what I oppose. Since this film was released as Gohatto in the English-language market, it is one of the viable titles, along with Taboo. That you would say that only official names of the original release should be used is what I find objectionable. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 05:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You must learn to distinguish between the expression of personal preference and the quotation of policy. You don't actually look like you know more about policy when you hijack a move request in order to attack me for my personal opinion. The statement you are referring to was my personal preference, and it is also a growing preference among Wikipedians in general and WPFilm members in particular. Therefore, I was merely pointing out that we can expect the policy on this issue to change in the near future to reflect actual consensus among the Wikipedia community. My actual arguments in this case have, however, been based entirely in reliable sources and objective evidence, so your nitpicking my wording is just ridiculous. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Salvidrim (talk • contribs) 04:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

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