Talk:Irish language/Archive 4

message: How about a section on Roman and Gaelic type, controversies etc. Frainc 10.30 17 October 2006
:It's mentioned briefly in the Orthography and pronunciation section; any more detailed discussion probably belongs at Gaelic script and/or Irish orthography. —Angr 09:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Roman and Gaelic Type

message: Irish phonology is up for peer review. Please leave comments at Wikipedia:Peer review/Irish phonology/archive1. Thanks! —Angr 18:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish phonology peer review 

message: I have written a line or two in the aricle "[Irish Language]]" about the Irish Language Act discussed these days following the St Andrews Agreement but maybe there is more to be written in this article or in aticles specialised in North Ireland. Because I follow the news considering language policy, but I do not have the time to write something more myself about something I don't know enough, I am listing some links for the issue to be used by someone interested:
*a BBC news article 
*a comprehensive report from the Irish Times 
*the views of POBAL,  the umbrella organisation for the Irish language community in Belfast: 8 principles (they are circulating also a BLACKLISTED LINK REMOVED supporting it). Also a lengthy Proposed Legislation - The Irish Language Act NI, published before the agreement.
*Sinn Fein's view   
*SDLP's view 
*DUP's view 
--Michkalas 20:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Materials for the status of Irish in NI after St Andrews Agreement 

message: Added in - perhaps the main page should be divided into the linguistic and political/policy aspects? Can anyone add a) when Irish was first made compulsory in schools b) what it has cost the Irish government since then c) why 200,000+ people are fluent but hardly ever use it?Stamboul 11:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hardly ever use it?! Pure conjecture. According to the 2002 census, Irish is used daily by 359,000~ The cost is immaterial and no doubt not attainable. Jamesnp 11:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Republic now Éire-Ireland

message: I have made a first pass at tidying up the "External Links" section, as it is fast becoming a repository of links for anything remotely related to the Irish language, or for pages written in the Irish language.
This is not the External Links section is for. 
Per WP:EL, the "Ext Links" section should really be limited to official links (like Foras na Gaeilge or similar), links to accurate/neutral reference material about the subject (that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright/length considerations), or sites which are otherwise relevant to the context of the wider article.
A lot of what is currently linked (in particular links to news resources in Irish, etc) fails WP:EL for promotion, relevance, etc.
Comments welcome before I make a second pass at summarising the list. Guliolopez 19:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: Hello. I just have a question... I read somewhere that there was an Irish word for "hill" or even the depression next to a hill. I think the word was either "cwb" or "cbw", I can't remember, and I can't find it anywhere, (I can't even rememeber where I read about it; sorry). It may not even be Irish.... Perhaps it's Finnish.... If anyone knows what I'm talking about, your help would be much appreciated. Thanks, Kaiilaiqualyn 14:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe you're thinking of the Welsh word cwm, which is an indentation in a mountain. —Angr 14:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much!!! Kaiilaiqualyn 14:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quick/stupid question 

message: As an estimate, what's the percentage about of people in Ireland that speak English?
:If you're counting actual Irish citizens (i.e. not people visiting on holiday, working there temporarily on a Visa, etc), I would guess it was about 99.9%.--feline1 19:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to 99.9%. I see on the map that 40-45% of people in Kildare speak Irish. I have lived in Kildare all my life (I'm 50) and I have never once heard people talking to each other naturally using Irish. So 40-45% of us can understand some but we aren't fluent beyond a basic school vocabulary. The map might give the wrong impression that 40-45% of us speak it all the time. It is used for introductions to speeches (especially political), in Irish school lessons and singing folk-songs. The census figures tend to over-emphasize its daily use; the census and compulsory Irish lessons are both governmental, and not demotic, realities. It is difficult to learn and once people are fluent beyond a certain point (beyond school level) it takes on a semi-religious aspect, due to the time devoted to it.Red Hurley 11:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Curious 

message: Where does the figure of 380,000 in the infobox come from?  The footnote has a link to ethnologue, but  that doesn't mention the number of fluent speakers (in any case, how is "fluent" defined?) and doesn't mention the figure of 380,000! Instead, it claims 355,000 total for all countries, which presumably includes non-fluent speakers (though contradicts the main text of this article).  Any explanation? garik 12:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it anyway. garik 10:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of fluent speakers 

message: i have a picture from my trip to the republic of ireland last year. its of a guinness ad in irish, would that be apropriate somewhere on this page? i was looking through the page and i couldn't find a spot, so i thought i'd get some consensus before i posted it. ...Patrick (talk, cntrb.) 04:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good.  How about the republic of ireland/Daily Life section? Boracay Bill 05:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i posted the picture. from my very short knowledge of irish, i think it (Failte go dtí Ceol agus Comhrá) translates sort of as, "come and welcome to music and conversation." is that correct? i'd like to put the translation in the caption. ...Patrick (talk, cntrb.) 08:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the sign, I think it's supposed to read "Fáilte go dtí Guinness - Ceol agus Comhrá" (Welcome to Guinness - Music and Conversation). But maybe it's "Fáilte go dtí Ceol agus Comhrá" (Welcome to Music and Conversation). —Angr 09:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  should i post this picture? 

message: This statement could do with elaboration. In the personal experience of myself and others who have gone to school in the Midwest of Ireland, the exact form of Irish used/taught has been influenced by the teacher, in this case generally Munster and/or Connacht. There is also the issue of the listening test in the Leaving Certificate - from what I remember this was not merely a mix of accents from Munster/Connacht/Ulster but also including local expressions, vocabulary and constructions (oh the fun of that in an exam!). zoney  ♣ talk 13:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tell me about it! A child of mine is being taught by a native of Donegal - a vastly different dialect to what I learned... BastunBaStun not BaTsun 00:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

text: As far as spelling and morphology go, yes, but there is no standard pronunciation. Learners far away from a Gaeltacht just sort of pick up a mishmash of their various teachers' pronunciations. —Angr 11:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is the 'dialect' that is taught in most schools in Ireland 

message: Further to Angr's efforts above, I have also noted quite a few cases of speculation, generalisation, unsourced POV and other "unencylopedic" commentary. Examples include:
Commentary: 
:Yet, 2007 shows some hope for the future, with the first officially sanctioned Gaeltacht being declared outside of Ireland on June 16th, 2007...
::Suggesting that gowth or decline is a good or bad thing. Should stick to facts. Propose change to:
:There has been some ancillary growth however, with the first officially sanctioned Gaeltacht being declared outside of Ireland on June 16th, 2007...
Unsourced commentary/Original research/Speculation:
:Publicly displayed Irish is sometimes ungrammatical, which has the potential to irritate speakers and activists. 
::Speculation and generalisation on reaction of readers. Can consider no reword option. Plan on simply removing.
Original research/Speculation: 
:That the Dáil uses Irish in less than 1% of its business may also contribute to the public image of the revival.
::Same as above. Speculation/generalisation on "what people might think". Again, can consider no reword option. Plan on removing.
Commentary: 
:In an effort to address the half-committed attitude of Irish language use by the State, the Official Languages Act was passed in 2003. 
::POV/commentary on previous efforts. Propose change to:
:In an effort to increase the use of the Irish language by the State, the Official Languages Act was passed in 2003. 
Commentary/POV: 
:The Planning and Development Act (2000) attempted to address the latter issue, but the response is almost certainly inadequate.
::Complete POV. Plan on changing to:
:The Planning and Development Act (2000) attempted to address the latter issue, with varied levels of success.
Original research/Speculation: 
:Outward migration of Irish-speakers could be reduced if the state, which is the main employer in the Republic of Ireland, were to exercise its right to have certain jobs performed in Irish and relocated to the Gaeltacht.
::Yet again, the contributor is making POV suggestions on what might be done, and coming to speculative conclusions on the possible outcome. Plan on removing.
More commentary/Drawing conclusions: 
:On 3rd December 2003 the Minister for Finance announced a new decentralisation programme, moving over 10,000 civil and public service jobs to 53 locations in 25 other counties outside Dublin. The government explicitly said this was being done to boost the economy of outlying areas. None of these jobs were used to provide employment for native Irish-speakers in the Gaeltacht.
::As above. Plan on removing entire para.
If there are any comments on proposed solutions to address, please let me know. Otherwise will progress these changes in coming days. Le meas. Guliolopez 17:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Too many of these examples are of a editorial and speculative nature, and are certainly not neutral in their view, as a consiquence such material should be removed as a matter of course. Djegan 19:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Agree also, except for the bit about "first officially sanctioned Gaeltacht being declared outside of Ireland" - see talk page on Permanent North American Gaeltacht - just remove it. --sony-youthpléigh 21:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research/Speculation/Commentary/POV