Talk:Two-state solution

message: I have reorganized the introduction and moved the material there into separate sub-sections. One section, so formed, is the "Diplomatic Process". However, this just repeats most of the "Peace Process" article already created elsewhere. I am replacing this whole section with a summary to that article.
I have also added some background on the 2-state solution and UN 242 in the "History" section.
Kingsindian (talk) 08:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization and cleaning up 

message: It was initially conceived under the 1947 UN Partition plan for the division of the British Mandate of Palestine.  The Peel Commission report of 1936/7 predates partition and envisions a second partition of the area (the first occurring in 1922).  There may be other plans that predate 1936. Lance6Wins 22:31, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: So, fix it! Noel (talk) 00:11, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Sorry, didn't realize you'd been forbidden to edit in thie subject area. I have fixed the error (it was mine!), and included the Peel plan. (I didn't have time to research earlier plans; I just said "the idea has a long history" and then launch straight into Peel, without calling it the first.) Noel (talk) 02:53, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Factual inaccuracy 

message: Someone removed "the Jewish leadership, while not accepting it, wished to use it as a basis for further negotiation" and replaced it with "the Jewish leadership accepted it reluctantly". Ah, no. According to:
* Aharon Cohen, Israel and the Arab World (Funk and Wagnalls, New York, 1970), pp. 209
the response was:
: The Twentieth Zionist Congress (Zurich, August 1937) resolved, by a vote of 299 to 160 ... b) not to accept the partition plan of the Royal commission but to empower the executive to conduct negotiations "to clarify the specific points of the British government's proposal to found a Jewish state in Palestine".
See also our own article on the Peel Commission, which quotes the 20th ZC as saying the partition plan proposed by the Peel Commission is not to be accepted. I don't see how you can characterize this as "accepted" (even if qualified by "reluctantly"). Noel (talk) 21:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Peel Commission

message: Territories that Israel captured in the West Bank and Gaza during the Six-Day War would become a new Palestinian state. - says who? See 1949 Armistice Agreements#Cease-fire line vs. permanent border. ←Humus sapiens ну? 07:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1949 armistice as a border 

message: Why is a "see also" undue weight? Isn't a "see also" the least weight possible?? If you are so insistant, I will add a whole section to the article explaining the relevancy. -- Kendrick7talk 20:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a paragraph isn't exactly deserved, but if see also is the only alternative then i guess go ahead with that.--Urthogie 20:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Israeli apartheid]] has a whole section related to this article 

message: The common notion is that the J.A. led by Ben-Gurion accepted the UN partition plan, however this is factually incorrect. The J.A. supported the notion of the creation of Israel however they disapproved of the partition plan giving the Palestinians a state. This important fact should be highlighted in this article as well as others related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Ben-Gurion is also quoted saying that Israel cannot accept anything less than all of Palestine. 
Israel's actions of today also support their initial reactions to the partition plan including the ever increasing area of occupied land and the subsequent and illegal settlements on the occupied land.
:I just noticed this unsigned comment from about a year ago.  I am leaving it here -- unlike the section below it, which I am removing because it deals entirely with the subject and not at all with the article -- because parts of this comment do deal (if only peripherally) with the article. If the writer is still around, I would ask: Do you happen to have a source for any of this. 6SJ7 (talk) 02:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel/Jewish Agency's rejection of the UN partition plan 

message: Can we get the material reorged around topics or timeline?
For topics we could start with the current "Western" policy, then the history of the area, followed by the various issues like borders (no possible border line is acceptable), Right of return (an ethnically cleansed state with no right of return?  Didn't Europe have some sort of problem like this in the 1930s, 1990s, etc.?), security (neither side trusts the other so both will remain insecure), outside problems (because of all of the above, others will use these issues to deflect problems in their own states) then move on to the lack of alternatives such as permanent occupation (which isn't acceptable to anybody), genocide (it's never a final solution), single state (if they can't live side by side they surely can't live together) and annexation by third parties (really it's the only times the place has been at peace, but who can both sides trust today?).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hcobb (talk • contribs) 19:58, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there are these issues: partition or two-state proposals that were made or taken seriously and usually rejected by one or both parties; identification of periods when such a solution was considered or rejected; negotiations based around a two-state solution; and issues relating to the practical aspects of the solution. Fred Talk 13:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorg 

message: A topographical map shows that any Palestinian state in the West Bank would contain the heights commanding Israel's main population and economic zone.  Pictures taken from the mountain ridge show that Ben Gurion Airport and Tel Aviv are visible with the naked eye from the mountains, and in particular, that they would be be within the range of even primitive rockets and artillery.  If a Palestinian state were established in the West Bank with borders in the pre-1967 configuration, Shimon Peres described it as "liable to be an arrow-head directed at the very heart of Israel with all the force of the Arab world behind it."  Moreover, declassified United States documents give the strategic recommendations by the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff for Israel to redraw its borders within territories captured in 1967 in order to maintain defensible borders. "From a strictly military point of view, Israel would require the retention of some captured Arab territory in order to provide militarily defensible borders.  Determination of territory to be retained should be based on accepted tactical principles such as control of commanding terrain, use of natural obstacles, elimination of enemy-held salients, and provision of in-depth defense for important facilities and installations." In the document, the Joint Chiefs recommend that Israel annex all but the northeastern West Bank. www.acpr.org.il/publications/books/33-Zero-editorial.pdf‎  This objection should be covered in the article, at the very least, as a justification for Israel's security demands (control over strategic points in the mountains and in the high points overlooking the Jordan Valley as well as a fully demilitarized Palestinian state that is unable to form alliances with countries that do not recognize the state of Israel's right to exist).  Without those guarantees, a two-state solution would be suicidal, and even the presence of a substantial population of Palestinian irreconcilables could just lead to a reoccupation of the West Bank if the Palestinian Authority were unable to control it. 174.44.174.192 (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: And Palestine's security demands would entail what, annexing parts of Israel, a fully demilitarized Israeli state unable to form alliances with countries that do not recognize the state of Palestine's right to exist? We're not here to further ridiculous arguments. Sepsis II (talk) 17:04, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Palestine is not surrounded by hostile countries that have committed repeated aggressions against it, and moreover, Israel has not served as a base for international terrorists who have stated as their goal the destruction of the state.  Further, since Israel is the country that controls the territory, we are talking about concessions by Israel in terms of military position. No country is obligated to undertake actions that would threaten its existence (self defense is an inherent right), so any military concession by Israel would have to be credibly met by a situation guaranteeing its security.  That is, Israel is not bound by any obligation to the Palestinians to give them a sovereign state at all, and it will rationally not recognize such a state if it leads to a situation in which it is left in a worse security position than it had been previously.  Since the Palestinians do not control the territory, I do not see how they can demand that Israel demilitarize or even leave.  The point of negotiations is to achieve a result that improves the security and ends the bloodshed for both parties. Without Israel's consent in negotiations, the  Palestinians cab either wait for an international intervention (not going to happen), or they can try armed 'resistance' (terrorism) again (a war that they will lose again).  So ultimately, if the Palestinians refuse to take steps that Israel deems necessary for its survival, they will not have a state (and might even lose the limited degree of self-government that they already have).  You can argue that the Palestinians are entitled to self determination, but ultimately, Israel has a veto over the borders of any future Palestinian state beyond (de facto, and de jure by the Oslo accords).  The objections to a two state settlement that I raised are the objections from the right to a two state solution on the Israeli side. No similar argument applies for the argument from the right on the Palestinian side because it has no power to defy Israel or exercise forceful control of any areas of Israel.  So don't be deliberately thick.70.192.64.90 (talk) 18:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

text: The source for this objection is Martin Sherman, an Israeli political scientist and also JCPA, a think tank run by Israeli diplomat Dore Gold.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.192.70.195 (talk) 22:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strategic concerns and defensibility of borders 

message: There are several problems with Shootsrubberbands' edits, including POV original research ("Barak's map illustrating war tactics of surround, divide, occupy, and discontiguity"), content allegedly supported by unreliable sources (kingjamesbibleonline, electricitymachine), personal opinions ("we can learn a lot about what NOT to do when we study the 2000 Camp David Summit Barak's map"), and off-topic articles listed in the "See also" section (with wrong titles such as "Palestinian concentration camps").--Zeremony (talk) 02:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes by Shootsrubberbands 

message: My input is factual, encyclopedic and well resourced by reliable sources. Zeremony is trumping up false claims, if Israel uses the Holy Bible to make historical document claims to disputed land, then others might use the same. Zeremony, lol we CAN learn a lot about what not to do in learning from barak's map, if you haven't thrown it into the delete bin,'In critiqueBarak Corrected PDF and After-action review (analysis) we can learn a lot about what NOT to do when we study the 2000 Camp David Summit Barak's map.' i have no articles in the See Also section at the moment, but when i did before the articles were perfectly contextual and make for interesting reading. You are in the wrong Zeremony please quit making edit war and vandalising due to your own personal bias, sorry i wrote something on your talk page, never having done this before. Regardless though you are in the wrong Zeremony. This conversation should not go on with the good info/input off the page. If you would like to collaborate - then re-write the sentence you are objecting to and i will consider putting it in the page just go ahead and put it in the page, no big deal. I do not intend to use the See Also section because vandals keep deleting the list of spot-on on-topic contextual entries i put there, such as Quartet on the Middle East. i have never used one of these "page talk" pages before, i did not realize i was supposed to write the signature Shootsrubberbands (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shootsrubberbands (talk • contribs) 18:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What???? You haven't answered any of the objections I raised above. If you don't understand plain English, didn't read (or don't care) the rules of this encyclopedia, or don't possess the basic level of WP:competence that is required to discuss and contribute to an article, don't even bother to edit in Wikipedia. Probably it's not the place for you. If you want people to know your personal opinion about Barak's proposal and other related issues, I suggest you to make a blog and leave us alone.--Zeremony (talk) 02:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism-Edit-Warring by Zeremony 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Shouldn't the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (1947) be included in the lead also? It clearly left out that the Arabs also against two-state solution at one point. --Horus (talk) 05:29, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  1947 Plan in lead 

message: The lede is a summary, and if we want to cherrypick from the body, namely one piece of information that the Arab leadership rejected the peace plan, and not that, for example, it was heavily biased towards the Zionist perspective, then this is not a summarization but a misrepresentation. The current wording of it was not implemented is much more NPOV. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If in  the lede, you would like to note a deal rejected by Israel or other decision made by their government that is key to the progression of the situation, you are more than free to do so with ample sourcing. I think that it is not a bad idea to include details that are so key to the issue. The deal was not simply "not implemented". That makes it sound like it was wrapped up in bureaucratic issues, it was an outright rejection by one side. It isn't a "zionist perspective" to note that one side disagreed with a compromise idea. EytanMelech (talk) 11:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede 

message: Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#Renewed calls for a two-state solution. I am about to create the new section in this article. Your input and comments are very much welcome. Misha Wolf (talk) 23:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renewed calls for a two-state solution 

message: Just wanted to leave a brief note that water is also a key issue in the two state solution DMH43 (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Water as a key issue 

message: That's the start of the first sentence of the third para of section "Settlements in the West Bank". Something's wrong with that sentence but I don't know what the intended meaning is so can't fix it. Misha Wolf (talk) 20:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a "Clarify" template to that sentence as the above request for clarification has had no effect. Misha Wolf (talk) 12:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Proposals have been offered for over 50 post-evacuation compensation of settlers [...]" 

message: The statement "but has turned down the offers made since" is not, IMO, honest as it makes it seem as if the PLO has withdrawn its earlier acceptance of a two-state solution, rather than that it has rejected the specific offers made. IMO, those words should be removed. Misha Wolf (talk) 15:46, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The lede has undergone a few troublesome changes in the past few edits. Yr Enw (talk) 17:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the words "but has turned down the offers made since". Misha Wolf (talk) 20:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Apologies, the intention of the wording was not to imply that the PLO has withdrawn its acceptance of a two-state solution in principle, just that they have turned down every particular two-state proposal that has been made since their in-principle acceptance (most significantly, the Camp David Summit in July 2000, the Clinton Parameters in December 2000, and Ehud Olmert's reiteration of the Clinton Parameters in 2008 to Mahmoud Abbas). KronosAlight (talk) 07:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi @KronosAlight, to make things simpler, let's leave aside East Jerusalem, Gaza, transport links between Gaza and the West Bank, refugees, etc. Let's focus on the West Bank alone and let's assume that Israel refuses to part with 100% of it. I don't know how many square centimetres the West Bank covers, but I do know that there are an almost infinite number of proposals that could be made for which particular square centimetres will be part of Palestine and which will be part of Israel. So you tell us that the Palestinians have rejected three proposals for distributing square centimetres of the West Bank between the two countries. Which of the uncountable potential proposals would Israel accept and which would it reject? The word "but" in the text I removed strongly implies that the Palestinians either withdrew their agreement to a two-state solution or are being unreasonably picky. You are now saying that you were not trying to imply the former. So were you trying to imply the latter? Surely, a truthful statement would say something like "the two sides have not reached a mutually acceptable solution" and would not be linked by the word "but" or, indeed, by any other word to a statement about Palestinian acceptance of the two-state solution. Misha Wolf (talk) 12:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi @Misha Wolf. Let’s not make things simpler, simplifying history through counterfactual thought experiments rarely works well. “The two sides have not reached a mutually acceptable solution” would be a good way of expressing this neutrally, though it seems to me important that there’s some reference to the Wiki pages of the negotiations and proposals in July 2000 at Camp David, December 2000 via Clinton Parameters, and 2008 by Ehud Olmert, so that readers can click through to explore the issue in more detail on the relevant pages than a lede section can reasonably provide. The WPs of these proposals and negotiations already explore the assessments by figures on each side about whether or not the PLO should or should not have accepted the terms offered, which I agree is not for us to judge, and can be left to the individual pages. KronosAlight (talk) 13:14, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi @KronosAlight, the 5th and 6th paras of the lede link, inter alia, to articles about the 2000 Camp David Summit, Clinton Parameters, Taba negotiations, 2006–2008 peace offer, 2013–14 peace talks. So readers already have the opportunity to click through to those articles. Misha Wolf (talk) 21:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: HI @Misha Wolf. Great, we're in agreement then. "The two sides have not yet reached a mutually acceptable solution" is a fair and neutral way to phrase it. Thanks! KronosAlight (talk) 09:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

text: Was just hoping to clarify whether they you wish to edit this sentence into the lede or whether I should go ahead myself? KronosAlight (talk) 16:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi @KronosAlight, I can't see any place in the lede where it would make sense. The para starting with "Recent diplomatic efforts" and the two subsequent paras make quite clear that the two sides have not [yet] reached a mutually acceptable solution. There is also the problem that for a lot of the time since the 1982 Arab Summit, Israel has had Prime Ministers who were not interested in the two-state solution. A phrase such as "not yet reached a mutually acceptable solution" presupposes that the two sides both want to reach such a solution. This does not appear to be the case. Misha Wolf (talk) 17:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with @Misha Wolf‘s concerns here. I think introducing anything else is going to confuse the matter. Yr Enw (talk) 04:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The [...] Palestinian Liberation Organisation has accepted in principle [...] a two-state solution [...] but has turned down the offers made since." 

message: The lede is rather bizarre in that it discusses the evolution of the PLO's and Hamas's positions regarding the TSS, but appears to be wholly silent regarding Israel's position (as opposed to the results of opinion polls). We need a para describing Israel's position, located either immediately before (this would be best, IMO) or immediately after the paras describing the PLO's and Hamas's positions. I don't feel qualified to write such a para so hope that someone else will tackle it. Misha Wolf (talk) 13:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The elephant in the room