Talk:Transnistria/Archive 13

message: I would like to get the page protection lifted but it is obvious that we are not ready yet. What can be done to speed things up and get resolution on some of the key issues? Mind you, not all. Just as many as possible, so that we avoid a renewal of the tiresome revert warring in the main article. 
Who wants to take the initiative to perhaps wrap up some of the conclusions we have reached, and try to find closure on some of the others? Maybe Vecrumba? - Mauco 20:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Or TSO1D? - Mauco 13:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or Pernambuco? Anyone? I don't want to be the one to add new things, and I certainly don't want to be the one to revert others. But in view of the history of the page, it is important that we don't slide into the same bad old habits. Please just summarize some of what we have agreed on so far, and only add or delete those things. Then let us constructively discuss the rest. - Mauco 14:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I guess that my request here is in vain. User:MariusM took advantage of the lift of the page protection just now. He was nearly absent from this Talk page for the past week. But as soon as the page got unlocked, he made 9 edits within 7 hours  (with hardly any Talk page participation). This is edit warring. Uncool. - Mauco 23:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've been PC (personal computer, not political correctness) building, still straightening out years of files/backups/etc. I'll put my thinking cap on over the next few days.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protection 

message: I think that it was generally agreed that this section could just go. Both myself and MariusM agree on this. Is that OK with everyone? Or is there somewhere we can move it to? I thought of moving it and turning it into a 'See also' stub but I fail to see how it would meet notability criteria at this point in time.- Mauco 14:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree, there is no need to have such a section full of trivia. TSO1D 20:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is now gone, since we are in agreement with MariusM on this. I wish we could get the same level of consensus on other issues (adding as well as deleting). Let us try. - Mauco 22:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transnistria in popular culture 

message: I've changed "clashes" with "confrontation" and I added Tighina at one point of border issues, however through rephrasing the total lenght of the paragraph remained the same. Proposed paragraph:
Some villages from the Dubăsari district, including Cocieri and Doroţcaia  which geographically belong to Transnistria, have been under the control of the central government of Moldova after the involvement of local inhabitants on the side of Moldovan forces during the War of Transnistria. In the same time, some areas which geografically belong to Bessarabia, not to Transnistria, including the city of Tighina, are controlled by Transnistrian authorities. Tense situations have frequently surfaced due to these territorial disputes, for example in 2005, when Transnistrian forces entered Vasilievca, but withdrew after a few daysMoldova AZI, Transnistrian Militia Withdrew Its Posts from Vasilievca, Accessed 2006-10-18, in 2006 around Varniţa (a suburb of Tighina under Moldovan control) and in 2007 in Dubăsari-Cocieri area, when confrontation between Moldovan and Transnistrian forces occured, without casualitiesNovosti Russian press agency report about 2007 clashes.--MariusM 11:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it is fine . Pernambuco 18:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Border issues

message: The proposed paragraph added imediately after "critics claim..." is:
In Transnistria the right of citizens to change their government was severely restricted.[...] Transnistrian authorities harassed independent media and opposition lawmakers, restricted freedom of association and of religion, and discriminated against Romanian-speakers.[...] Transnistrian authorities regularly harassed and often detained persons suspected of being critical of the regime for periods of up to several months.U.S. Department of State referring to year 2005
I mention that Mauco agree that we can have a summary of US Department position, the proposal is already a summary, however it was still deleted. I don't understand what can be sumarized more from a quite long document.--MariusM 11:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: U.S. Department position regarding Human Rights

message: Based also on JonathanPops opinion, I removed the word "officially" from the introduction. We already are saying that the name Pridnestrovie is according PMR Constitution, we should not present it more official than that. But let's see what other editors think.--MariusM 11:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  but this was part of the compromise version and I remember from the last archive both Vecrumba and Mauco made an agreement, not to change anything now, because then it is not the cmpromise version any more, and then they wanted to change other things,and then it never stops, so it will be a big mistake to change it Pernambuco 18:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Usage of word "officially" regarding the name Pridnestrovie

message: The sentence about the presence of Suvorov's statue in Tiraspol is not relevant for this article, I believe. It is relevant for the article Tiraspol. Same person who want to shorten the article in other parts is pushing his POV that Suvorov is the most important symbol of Transnistria and need to stay in the article. As a compromise, I propose to keep the photo with an explanation beneath it and remove the sentence.--MariusM 11:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is fine with me the way Tso1d made it. Pernambuco 18:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i dont understand, if almost everyone said "keep photo and move sentence" then can evilAlex explain why he removed the photo? He voted for keeping it, but today he removed it, he blanked it, I had to restore it. What is going on, why does he do this? you can see his vote above, the sentence has already been taken away, now all that is left is the photo. I do not understand these people ..... Pernambuco 19:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I voted for keeping the photo, however I understand Evil's edit. The problem is the following: you don't acept poll results when you don't like it (word "official" in introduction), then others will not accept poll results in other areas. By your behaviour, Pernambuco, you started a new edit war.--MariusM 09:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Alex had actually acted against his own vote. If he thinks that such immature behavior - "teaching someone a lesson" - is okay to illustrate a point, he should read WP:POINT and reconsider. This was probably the first conscious act of vandalism on the page, excluding Bonaparte and Mark Street. --Illythr 13:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sentence and photo about Suvorov

message: This generally-agreed (in November) sentence was removed in December by Mauco as not relevant. Disscussions above were inconclusive. I believe the opinions are relevant for the actual economical situation in Transnistria (more relevant than Tiraspol Times, IMHO) and if we are considering relevant the statue of Suvorov, why we should not consider relevant the actual economic situation?--MariusM 11:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i forget, who is Yakovlev and why is his quotation so important.? Pernambuco 18:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  can someone tell me this, why it is required......... Pernambuco 17:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Vasily Yakovlev is one of the founders of PMR, perhaps the main ideological founder, while Smirnov was the practical one. If you read the whole letter, you'll see it is very critical of Smirnov, whom he calls criminal in reference to economic degradation of the villages in Transnistria. He critisizes the failure of the economy due to lack of care of government for people's daily life in general (not just villages), but in reference to villages he is very harsh. The letter was published in Triaspol media with significant deletions, which generated a surge of wondering, and Chisinau press, who was generally critical of people like Yakovlev published it in full, and without much comments, as the text speaks for itself as no comment can do. The fact puts into evidence, although not clearly to first-time readers, the crizis in Transnistrian govenrment, its search for new people and new ideological basis, as the old ones start leaving the boat. :Dc76 19:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  the conclusions that Dc76 makes, is this his own opinion or is it is a source, because I looked at the page history and also talk archivals, and the reason it was deleted was because it was just wrong and misleading information: the man's quote is about economic failure, and later the newest source is that the economy instead rose 17 per cent at the same time Pernambuco 17:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The economic growth is 17 per cent according to what PRM officials said. Let's see other facts: In 1990, Transnistria had a per capita GDP 2.35 times Moldova's; now only 1.15 times; quite a decline... The debt of PRM is 285% of GDP, the highest in the world. Dl.goe 08:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 17 per cent for which period exactly? According to the statistical service of the Ministry of Economy of PMR, during the first half of 2006 the economy decreased 11.5% and industrial output decrease even 32.8%. For population engaged in industrial sector that kind of decrease is quite hard. I am not sure if the statistics reliable, but this official information from the Transnistrian authorities. Probably this explains the Yakovlev's letter. Beagel 19:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vasily Yakovlev's opinions

message: While I don't consider Tiraspol Times as the kind of links we should accept in Wikipedia, in order to achieve a compromise and understading that this is a sentimental problem for Mauco (he loves TT and TT loves Mauco; he contributed with so many articles at TT, under different names) I am ready to accept TT link. However, considering the refusal of changing the headline of External links section, I believe is necessary to include also a link to transnistria.ru.ru, to show also the voice of anti-separatist transnistrians, not only the voice of Tiraspol regime. Is a problem of having balanced info.--MariusM 12:10, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I liked the tiras.ru site at first, in fact I was going to suggest we replace Tiraspol Times with it, but it has a link to a porn site on its links page so I'm not sure it's appropriate anymore. Jonathanpops 00:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External links: TT and transnistria.ru.ru

message: Having watched this page for a while, its clear that the cycle of proteciton/revert warring/protection is not working. The discussion page is being used well, but we're still not getting anywhere.
Anyway, rather than protection, I've instead blocked Marius and Mauco for a period of 10 days. The idea is that you guys all keep working on teh article and hopefully it can develop without edit warring.
If this fails (i.e. if edit wars continue or no discussion keeps taking place) then I'll re-protect the article and unblock Marius and Mauco after three days, as NishKid64 had left it.
The idea behind this is to allow the article to develop without edit wars. I don't blame M/M for the revert wars themselves, but they've gotten too far into it and some off-wiki cooling off time wiill do them good.
If this attempt to sort the problem fails then you need mediation. --Robdurbar 13:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sorry, but is there a Wikipedia rule allowing the blocking of users that cannot support each other? I throught the Wikipedia approach is based on mediation and arbitration, not blocking... Dpotop 15:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are plenty of Wikipedia rules but almost all of them allow admins to use their judgement if they want to. I am blocking M/M because I want to see if the Transnistria page can be settled but developing in their absence. As I've said, if it fails I'll unblock them. If people think my actions - which I agree are fairly unusual - are wrong then I won't revert any admin who undoes them (if anyone's unhappy, report this at WP:ANI). But I feel I've explained my logic. Robdurbar 15:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I hope you are aware that Mauco and MariusM will be back in 10 days. :) I hope you are going to be here to police the article after that date. :) Dpotop 17:55, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Robdurar already explained, it is a ban for educational purposes, he wants them to learn from it, so after, the police work is not needed. It was very ugly to see what they did yesterday, Mariusm was addding and deleting a lot of things again and again, and there was no agreement or no consensus, and Mauco was just reverting him, and finally they both got reported for 3-RR. So one of them has to learn to work with consensus and the other has to learn to stop revert, this is what Robdurar already explained as his purpose: Educational Pernambuco 18:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Marius/Mauco

message: There's currently a discussion on Talk:List of sovereign states concerning Transnistria. It would be interesting for you to drop by and say what you think. Dpotop 18:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: o.k., thank you, good idea Pernambuco 18:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, except that you answered without reading the question, which made you look dumb uninformed. Dpotop 19:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please try to be more civil. Even if you disagree with him, he has shown respect to you, and by insulting him, you are not likely to achieve anything. TSO1D 19:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is Transnistria sovereign?

message: I'm sorry to bring this up again but I noticed this edit by Mauco: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transnistria&diff=101879123&oldid=101875322 where he says in his edit description "as per talk", and I just wanted to know what talk this was? I know I talked about this and didn't agree that we should use the word "official" anywhere in this article and that Mauco disagreed with me. Is this the talk he is referring to or was there another?
Anyway seeing as Maruis and Mauco are blocked can I ask other's opinions on the word "official", should we use it or not? Am I wrong to oppose its use? Am I wrong in thinking the word has a point of view attached and that it's provocative? If I am wrong I don't mind, I just want to know, and I will shut up about it. Jonathanpops 16:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yes maybe just wait until the two M´s return, and see what they say, if it was a compromise version then all the parts have to respect that, else the compromise falls apart and the page is locked and all that, but the version was from P.Vecrumba and is he also blocked, if not, he can explain why it is there Pernambuco 17:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i said that it was part of the compromise, I think, and  want Vecrumba to tell us because he made it, and you are too fast because this will cause a lot of trouble, if we break the compromise then just imagine what it will become like when the two Ms (maurco and marius) return, you have not considered this or heard from Vecrumba about this, but I think he said something in Talk, can we check the archives ? I will restore it because it is safest Pernambuco 22:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it was. The discussion is here. MariusM wasn't part of this agreement, and probably, that's why he asked the question.
But I don't agree to the chapter Name. I think:"Although most commonly known in English as Transnistria, its official name is Pridnestróvskaia Moldávskaia Respública " is POV: we say Transnistria has a disputed status, but we name it... Republic.
I suggest The name Transnistria is most commonly used, and does not imply the status of Transnistria: region of Moldova or independent state.The name used in the Constitution of Transnistria is Pridnestróvskaia Moldávskaia Respública (Moldovan: Република Молдовеняскэ Нистрянэ, , ). This is abbreviated PMR.A short form of the name is Pridnestrovie (transliteration of the Russian "Приднестровье").Pridnestrovie.net: "Pridnestrovie" vs "Transnistria" Pridnestrovie.net. Retrieved 2006, 12-26Dl.goe 08:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Keep Dl.goe's version, with "Romanian Cyrilic" instead of "Moldovan". "Official" is not wrong as a word, as long as it is clear from who's POV it is official: legal/international/official Moldovan or per PMR legislation. To me it is clear that "ooficially Pridnestrovie" is PMR POV, but an outside reader who does not know Romanian, Russian, and perhaps not perfectly English could equaly well assume that this is how Moldova calls the region. The article is not for me and you, but, say for someone from Holland, Brasil, India or Japan. Dl.goe's version sounds much better, since it avoids this discussion, without damagind the info.:Dc76 20:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  it is very clear from how the text is, we do not say that it is official, it is not Wiki-pedia who decides this, and this is not doubted, if you read the text. It says "Official according to their PMR constiution" this means not official in general, or official according to anything else, I am neutral in this and it is very clear, there is not misunderstanding in the original version Pernambuco 17:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Some people might think it's very clear, but I think it would be lot clearer still if "official" was not there at all. If I, and all my family and friends say that I am the stongest man in the world it doesn't make it official in this way: Jonathanpops, officially per his friends and family "Strongest Man in the World" in not recognised as the strongest man in the world by anyone else in the world. Jonathanpops 22:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I oppose, this was why i reverted, but I agree with you on 'although', just dont change it so much like you did. the "official' part is in the right context, it says where it is from, so do not make a big deal of it, but if you want, change the although word but not the rest Pernambuco 07:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I think this is wrong, officially just shouldn't be there. Especially when more people agree that it shouldn't than people agree that it should. All we have is "officially" followed by an extremely long sentence with per Constitution of Transnistria stuck on the end. Has everyone here actually read the page Constitution of Transnistria? To me it's a sham of a page with no real information in it at all. It tells us the kinds of things this "Constitution of Transnistria" says inside without actually showing us the Constitution of Transnistria, like it's some mythical text. Where is the actual text? Why isn't it on the page Constitution of Transnistria. If it's a legitimate document why doesn't the page look something like this: United States Constitution (its obvious namesake)? Oh wait, it's in the external links at the bottom. Don't know why the English link is to pridnestrovie.net though when the first site has it in English too? Jonathanpops 10:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Jonathanpops. Removing officially would avoid controversy and would not send the reader to a sourse he should somehow know but never heard about. I only said it is clear to me, and I said that the text must be clear not to me, but to people who never heard about Transnistria. So, is Dl.goe's version above the one to be? (Just making sure we are talking about the same thing) :Dc76 23:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  there is no consensus, and it is in context, you can see that we say "officially according to the constitution" and not just "officially", there is a big big big difference Pernambuco 02:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  I think it should be kept as the word official is in the words of the constitution and thus not ours to vote on Pompey64 15:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official and Officially 

message: ----
I've noticed there were some edits regarding 50px| this image and 50px| this one. We had a poll at Tiraspol regarding which one is better. The result was 5 to 5. What about having at Transnistria the other image than the one we have at Tiraspol?Dl.goe 22:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: there is no doubt at all, keep the prettiest one, not the ugly one, why does everyone want to show the ugly side of everything ...... Pernambuco 22:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Pretty" is a matter of personal opinion, personally I think the second one is only marginally worse. Because the first one is too small and taken from too far away which means you can't see the details. Though having said that... I really don't care which one is used. Mathmo Talk 05:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: In my oppinion articles on Wikipeida are ment to inform, not be pretty. I would like to keep the most informing picture on both articles. But, as there were 6 edits in the same day that changed this picture,(you made 3 rv.), I ask a compromise. Dl.goe 08:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I would like to see the stature of Lenin and the building itself not the trees!
172.203.65.52 23:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed. The picture is about the "Government building in Tiraspol", not some nice park. The tree-less picture looks more government-like. Dpotop 08:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, which one is pritier? :-) Stalin would certainly love the second. And it is as clean as the first. Use both. Usually the problem is the absense of images in articles, not their abundence. If you find 10 more, please, by all means, put all of them. :Dc76 20:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  I did not find more but I put back a picture that D1.goe deleted, and if you can find 10 more, I agree. I also thought of a compromise for the government building, if it is really a big deal that some one wants to fight over. if it is so important, just find another image completely. A third one, I mean, which has the big Lenin, trees and also is pretty at the same time Pernambuco 17:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Complete support for Jonathonpops and Dc76 on this one. Rather than continuing a sterile debate on which is "prettier or "government-like," let's just include both pictures. Pictures are nice. "Better fewer, but better" was Lenin's motto. It doesn't have to be ours. jamason 17:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: The ban was initially on 17 high officals (none of them education), and those are still banned. Then the 10 were added when the school issue came up. After the issue was solved, for 8 of the 10 the ban was lifted (the 2 from Ribnita, as far as I know are still banned, because there the newly built school was confiscated).:Dc76 23:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm, I hadn't known about this... I think this may be classified as original research, though... --Illythr 23:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this link confirms information on visa restrictions  Beagel 08:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: More precisely, pp17-18. Current situation of visa bans: 17+10-8 Beagel 08:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks pretty weak to me (did anyone of those 10 officials actually travel to the EU?), but I added it in the article about the school crisis. --Illythr 22:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  EU ban to 10 Transnistrian education officials 

message: Every time I come to look at this page it is always so very very long, you could get better contribution to this article if the talk page wasn't so intimidatingly long and unwieldy to use. Voting is a very good way to help reach clear consensus, and I'm pleased to see that the more frequent contributors to this article have been using this. However at the same time voting is a quick way for a page to easily become much longer, but it is also something we could with ease compartmentalise and put on a separate sup page of talk. So long as we keep a clearly identifiable link at the top of the page that is big and easy to find nobody should be able to make claims against us of "hiding it away". So to start this off....  I'm creating the page now, and we can vote on if this is a good idea to use for future disputes or not. Here you go, Talk:Transnistria/voting   Mathmo Talk 05:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length of Talk Page, and idea for a subpage. 

message: # (cur) (last)  18:18, January 30, 2007 Dfoooh (Talk | contribs) (→Ukraine-Transnistria border customs dispute)
# (cur) (last) 18:17, January 30, 2007 Dfoooh (Talk | contribs) (historical correction)
The one on top added "blockade?" and the one on bottom deleted that Transnistria originally declared itself separate within the Soviet Union. Given that Mark Street was just on today as himself and Truli indicating he's retired (again) from Wikipedia (this was around 13:00), I wouldn't be surprised if he's back again--these were this user's first contributions. I suppose I could ask for an IP check but why ruin a potentially perfectly good welcome back party. :-)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it is not a problem , he was reverted ten minutes after he made his change, we will not accept that kind of work, but I am more concerned with the return of MariusM, it was so peaceful when he was away, and now he shows up, and immediately he edits the page and gets reverted, then he edits again, then he goes to my page and starts accusing me of not using common sense, and here on the page he accuses immediately of "plain fallacies", it is his style, why can he not be like the others, we can all make compromises but not him or it seems Pernambuco 03:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, in fairness, I myself would have a bit of an issue where you (elsewhere state that you) are now satisfied regarding quoted sources that the PMR is sovereign. I for one welcome back both MariusM and Mauco.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential Mark Street Alert 

message: I'm going to be away for the weekend, so I won't likely be able to contribute, but I think the entire intro needs a rewrite.  It's okay for introductions to have up two three short paragraphs, and it would probably be acceptable to give this article at least two leader paragraphs.  The first can discuss the basics and the second the independence from the MSSR and the declaration of the PMR.  It would make the status clearer for all reading the article.  └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 13:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The introduction should be a summation of the article. Since we have not even made a single pass through the entire article to reach any sort of consensus--the next thing we were stuck on was Montevideo being quoted to state the PMR was sovereign (which ruckus has also spilled over into the sovereign states page)--expanding the introduction at this point, quite honestly, will only lead to calamity. (If you go through the talk archives you can see there was a prior attempt by myself and some others to more accurately paint the sequence of events leading to the current de facto administration of the Transnistrian territory by the PMR in the introduction, and that was cut down to what you see currently.)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i agree with Vecrumbas, it was a big mess in the past, try to do other things first Pernambuco 14:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: I am very very sad, I log on to my computer some minutes ago, and I am being publicly called "a person who understands with dificulty" this is like saying that I am deranged or mentally slow, it is here,  and the offender is MariusM. I want him to be civil, there are people who do not disagree with me, that is fine, but not this behavior, it is not fine.  I want him to understand 3 rules from the wiki-pedia:
1. work with consensus, 
2. be civilized, 
3 no edit warring
they are the three things that marisM had to learn when he were blocked for 10 days, Robdurar already explained, he got his ban for educational purposes, to learn from it, please learn to work with consensus, this is what Robdurar already explained as his purpose: Educational Pernambuco 12:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your citation is flawed: Nobody said in that edit that you understand with difficulty. As to your educative approach, it would be acceptable if you were not a part in this edit war. Dpotop 11:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  <hint> Read the edit summary. ;-) </hint> --Illythr 12:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Pernambuco, who are you that you want to educate me? Are you my mother? First, you should learn those rules, including "no edit warring". You started the edit war in this article last year, by removing "border issue" section, Yakovlev's comments and US Department of State position. As you can see trough above poll, all your edits were against the will of the majority of the contributors of this article, and all my edits were in agreement with the majority opinion.--MariusM 16:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  no I am not your mother, the person who said that your long ban was for education reasons was not me, it was an admin by the name of Robdurar .... all I say is, I ask you to be civilized, and not incivil, and I can see that you refuse, why ?   I can count fine and there is no consensus. 5 in favor, 4 neutral, and 5 against, so dont pretend that you have a majority for your minority views Pernambuco 16:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is increasingly difficult to assume good faith for you as you don't count correctly poll results: There were 6 for removal: me, EvilAlex, Dl.goe, JonathanPops, DC76 and Vecrumba (he told "I prefer without the word "official" this mean he favour removal). For keeping I see only 3: You, Helen28 and Node.--MariusM 16:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can I ask Vecrumba if this is right, I counted his vote as neutral, but is it true that he prefers to delete the word? i remember it was part of his compromise, and if the word goes away, then the compromise is going away, and he is not defending his compromise so the whole edit war over the rest begins again Pernambuco 15:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see both sides but I am in slight favout of keeping the word, removing it could be considered some sort of geo-political ethnic cleansing, at least that's how it willl be presented. Bad !  Buffadren 10:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am against keeping the word. Dpotop 11:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, how about putting "self-name" in the lead and explaining that it is official along with "PMR" in the PMR somewhere in the name section? (Per my suggestion above) --Illythr 12:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Maybe because "self-name" is terrible English? └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 20:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good point. Is there a single word synonym for "The name by which the government and populace call the place", that is not "Russian" or "official"? --Illythr 21:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Eh, maybe "local name"? --Illythr 00:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The English term for an assumed non-recognized title is "self-styled". This probably applies to the "Republic" bit. But I don't know if this applies to the "Pridnestrovie" part of the name. Maybe "Transnistria identifies itself as the PMR, or Pridnestrovie". Dpotop 13:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  there are only 5 votes for removal, 6 for keeping, and 4 are neutral. in fact, Vecrumba just explained that he is neutral, i asked him, and he clarified, it is in the vote section and he says it Pernambuco 13:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  So can we please remove this highly contentious word then? Jonathanpops 11:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would prefer official over "self-named", "self-styled" or other similar terms.  The word is used in the constitution, but it isn't mentioned as the "proper" name.  I think my edit of a simple also is best, however. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 14:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncivil attacks of Pernambuco against MariusM 

message: The map shows all three demilitarized zones, including the two northern entirely controlled by the central government, as belonging to Transnistria. The map is supposed to represent the cituation on the ground, not the claims of the PMR leadership. I suggest to add the three zones in red. Also, the map should show the internal division of Moldova, so as to give the outsider reader more information about the disputted issues - it will be clear what one sides wants and what the other does not want.:Dc76 23:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with the map 

message: I reverted this edit of Mauco, where he changed Election results are suspicious, as in 2001 in one region it was reported that Igor Smirnov collected 103.6% of the votes with The 2001 election results of one region were suspicious as it was reported that Igor Smirnov collected 103.6% of the votes. International organisations had suspicious about elections results not only in one region, but in entire Transnistria. The example with 103% of votes in Camenca was given to show some of the reasons of suspicions, however this does not mean that results with 97% in other regions or in other elections are credible.--MariusM 10:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: his edit was better, if you read it, he explains what the proof is, also i have a question, this should be more like in the 'history of Transnistria' section, one single area in an election 6 years ago, that is very old, and there are no other examples since then, at least not in the article Pernambuco 15:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For recent elections also there are doubts about their fairness, for example the referendum from 2006, where both of you are strugling to take out from the article those doubts. Afterwards, you claim that all doubts are old. This is a reminder we need to include recent doubts about referendum fairness, in order not to allow interpretations that democratic rights infringements are only an old story in Transnistria. Pernambuco, the fact that you prefer an edit is not enough to have this edit in the article.--MariusM 18:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Did ANY of the people or organizations who raise doubts about the fairness of recent  elections actually go there? Did they send observers? Were they even in Transnistria? Or had they already made up their mind in advance, before the elections even happened? It seems to me that in order to pass judgment, it would be helpful to actually go there and observe what was going on. In 2005, there were two elections, and in 2006 there were also two. During both of them, hundreds of foreign journalists and international elections observers were present. None of the journalists reported any irregularities. The observers all concluded that the elections were free and fair. The only ones who complained were outside groups who refused to go there, and who never sought to be accredited in order to see first hand what was really going on. There is no reason why such biased, ill-informed "opinions" should be taken more seriously than the real first hand accounts of hundreds of Western journalists and observers who were actually there. - Mauco 02:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mauco, please stop with your original research about the fact that those who raised doubts were not in Transnistria. Moldovan Helsinki Comitee has a lot of collaborators in Transnistria. I told MarkStreet, editor of Tiraspol Times and wikipedian himself, to take an interview with Ştefan Urîtu, head of HCHRM, and corner him with his difficult questions. Neither TT or other transnistrian media accepted a dialogue with Urîtu, which is a sign that free media don't exist in Transnistria. Instead, TT wrote the totally fake claim that nobody raised doubts about Transnistrian referendum (and you still claim that TT care about truth). I remember also Vecrumba asking MarkStreet the list of the observers at Transnistrian referendum, but he didn't receive an answer.--MariusM 10:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Elections were badly organised and open to abuse in the past and people were wary of the results. The Smirnov vote of 103.6% shows how sloppy the elections were there.But this is  apoor example because the % figure of 103.6% is not significant because the opposition candidates also recorded increases in their votes in that regions count and that eliminated accusations of fraud.  Votes from one region got mixed with another which is absolute stupidity on behalf of Transnistrian election workers. In recent years elections they were very strictly watched over by foriegn election experts. I suggest saying that in the past elections were sloppy but in recent years they now match international standards. Buffadren 09:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously elections don't match international standards not even today. We discussed those issued many times (see archives). Recent year elections were watched only by "experts" from groups with a Russian-expansionism political agenda, international organisations refused to watch them. For example, a report issued in 2006 by US Department of State tell: "In Transnistria, the right of citizens to change their government was severily restricted" .--MariusM 09:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   To answer Mauco's question. These organisations refuse to monitor the elections because they are deemed to be invalid internationally. but  you have a point in this question. - Can they really cast negative comments and raise suspicions on results when they themselves refuse to attend the elections as monitors?.  Buffadren 10:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some foreign organisations like OSCE are monitoring the situation in Transnistria for several years. There are no suspicions, there is a proven fact that democratic climate necesarry for free elections is missing. Arrests and harassement of anti-separatist Transnistrians, which is not even reported in Transnistrian media, lack of press freedom (for anti-separatists, pro-PMR activists enjoy freedom) are reasons why international organisations refused to monitor the elections. You can compare with the situation in Montenegro, where an independence referendum was monitored by international comunity, however a democratic climate existed and both sides were able to campaign for their point of view. About HCHRM I believe they have people who report to them but don't want to be known by Transnistrian authorities. Is a pity that nobody want to make a journalistic investigation about HCHRM claims, in Transnistria is allowed only to throw mud on Helsinki Comitee without any checking of the facts and in Moldova they just reprint HCHRM claims without asking more evidence.--MariusM 10:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is no way the OSCE are monitoring these illegal elections. I don't believe that is right Buffadren 12:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Mauco, your logic is: the votes are legitimate, it's only that legitimate parties have not observed in person that the votes are legitimate. The fact that legitimate parties regard the regime a priori as illegitimate does not matter. The fact that said unrecognized regime has produced lists of voters and who they voted for to prove they are a democracy is (I'm sure you'll say) old news, look, the PMR are acting legitimately now. All WP:OR. No vote held in Transnistria can be characterized as free and democractic under the current circumstances there--and let's not forget Russian troops still there to insure the continuance of the regime that keeps track of who voted for whom.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  P.S. Regarding "...than the real first hand accounts of hundreds of Western journalists and observers..."--don't confuse PMR theater staged for our benefit with reality. Your apparently complete lack of skepticism in this regard lacks a solid foundation.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Election results

message: Mauco changed, not only in this article but in all Transnistria-related Wiki-articles, the expression Supreme Soviet with Supreme Council. In fact, in Russian (the official language of Transnistra) is called "Soviet" and this is how everybody reffered to the "parliament" from Tiraspol. In the propagandistic effort to de-sovietize their image, Tiraspol authorities issued an English translation with "Council" instead of "Soviet" and Mauco is following this trend. We should discuss if this change is apropiate.--MariusM 10:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please assume good faith and do not ascribe my edits to "propagandistic effort to de-sovietize their image." MariusM is well aware of the reasons for my edits, as they have been explained extensively to him here. I am copying that below to remind him of the rationale. - Mauco 17:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   I have heard it called Soviet too MariusM you are correct, but is it still called Supreme Soviet or have they changed it  Buffadren 11:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think both variants are pretty much equivalent. The word 'совет' (transliterated as 'soviet') indeed means no more than 'council'. Alaexis 13:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is no immediate connection with the Soviet Union (and since the Soviet Union is dead, there is not), then the word should be translated into English, and should, in fact, be "council". └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 13:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: If the same exact words are used before and after, then "Supreme Soviet", the same translation as before, is still the appropriate translation. If they change it to something less "supreme," then certainly that would trigger revisting the English version. The hammer and sickle is still required, "officially," on the flag.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  They have an English language website now. Please see http://www.vspmr.org/?Part=5&Lang=Eng - They refer to themselves under two names: "Supreme Council of Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic" seems to be the most prominent. In the text, they also call themselves "Parliament of the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic." The phrase "Supreme Soviet" is not used anywhere in English. - Mauco 17:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The official name is NOT Soviet. See the source: http://www.vspmr.org/?Part=5&Lang=Eng and note that this is an OFFICIAL source. "Soviet" is merely a Russian word. It means "Council" and it is being translated correctly. In English Wikipedia, we use English words. This is even true for names. The opposite is considered vandalism. See for an example. The previous article was in error, and I fixed it. More importantly, I fixed it with an official source. We have rules here that 1) English words have preference over foreign words, and 2) Official names should be used whenever possible. In this case, BOTH of these conditions are met. Please do not change it back to the old, wrong version. - Mauco 17:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can we source when the PMR decided to change the English version? As I indicated, the hammer and sickle are still there.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 23:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Supreme Soviet or Supreme Council?

message: "Rusia nu poate abandona depozitele de muniţii din Transnistria din considerente de securitate" at this link http://www.newsmoldova.md/news.html?nws_id=602827
I can translate it if anyone wants. It is about Transnistria. Ştefan44 16:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You better find the original RIA Novosti link.--MariusM 21:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I couldn't find it. I can't read Russian, and RIA Novosti is Russian. Ştefan44 02:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  article 

message: MariusM wants to have just a one-liner on the referendum, which was arguably THE most important event in Transnistria in 2006, and one that will have repurcussions on the status settlement outcome for years to come. In the same vein, I propose a simply oneliner to replace the whole human rights section:
The human rights record of the PMR has been criticised by several democratic governments, international organizations, and NGOs, and according to the OSCE, the media climate in Transnistria is restrictive. Main article: Human rights in Transnistria
My point is: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Like MariusM says, any interested person can look at the detailed article for further explanations, through a mouse click. Or why should human rights somehow be elevated to a larger space than the referendum? This is called undue weight, since in the objective view, the referendum is arguably THE most important event for years, and it will have a bearing on the outcome of the final status settlement. - Mauco 15:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a problem with both being one-liners, it's more fittingly encyclopedic I think. I do wish some editors would stop opening discussion sections with somebody's name though, it's getting a bit tedius. Jonathanpops 17:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is all about weight, and there is such a thing here as undue weight. The right article makes a fair and objective analysis of what it most important, then gives appropriate weight to each subject in matter of importance. Holding a referendum and asking people's opinion on their future is arguably as important, if not more so, than what outside organizations (some of whom have never been to Transnistria) think about human rights. - Mauco 18:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, the human rights section should stay but it needs to be pruned back.Buffadren 19:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was merely making a point in answer to the oneliner-cutback proposal immediately above. What the human rights section needs is a syncronization with the main Human rights in Transnistria article. First, everything that is here needs to be there, too (which is currently not the case). Second, the section here must be an accurate synopsis summing up all the most important points of the detailed article. That way, the section here will accurately serve as an overview and introduction to the subject there.  - Mauco 23:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reduce human rights section to one single line, just like the referendum section

message: I see another edit war started with a paragraph pretending "high level of succesfull criminal investigation" . What succesfull criminal investigation is in Transnistria where clear results about who is guilty for the deadly explosions in Tiraspol last year are still expected (some people were arested, released, other were arested but still nothing was yet proved)? Explosions were used only as a oportunity to accuse again Moldova and intimidate pro-Moldovan activists.--MariusM 19:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This was already removed before you complained, MariusM. What is your point? Unless the editor in question wants to defend his now-deleted edit, I see no reason to waste everyone's time here and discuss a part of the article which does not exist. - Mauco 23:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  My apologies to MariusM. I now notice (from today's edit log) that the editor in question persists in including the sentence. Others, including myself, have removed it. If this is not defended here, I see no reason to include it. If it is defended here, let us discuss it and see how we can find a phrasing that everyone will be happy with. Meanwhile, I support MariusM, Bogdangiusca, and others who feel it is better to keep the sentence out of the article. - Mauco 16:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  . I entered the article. You reverted it. You asked for citations. I provided Six independent news sites to support my entry. Please explain this ? Buffadren 17:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your references unreliable. EvilAlex 20:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It must be a cold day in hell, but I am actually with Evil & friends on this one. If the editor insists nevertheless, then please propose something here and let us work on phrasing that can be acceptable to all. But please: based on real sources (not a blog). When there is a semblance of consensus, we can add whatever the outcome is. Until then, please don't add the disputed paragraph because that will just create more revert warring. - Mauco 23:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  I will remove the blog, The wording I propose is as is, you paste your suggestions here and we can make a match. Buffadren 09:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: High level of succesfull criminal investigation?

message: Some editors don't trust this organisation. Tiraspol authorities hate it and its leader Ştefan Urîtu, is for long time the subject of attacks of Transnistrian authorities. From the International Helsinki Federation website I founded an article "Attack on Moldovan Human Rights defenders which describes an episode happened in 2004, when Tiraspol authorities forbid a seminar about human rights and arrested Urîtu and one other person for a short time. It was not the first time when Urîtu was arrested by Transnistrian authorities, I guess he don't like very much those authorities. However, we should not ignore what he says about Transnistria only because he was several times arrested by Tiraspol authorities - is like ignoring Nelson Mandela because he was arrested by apartheid regime and is not a neutral source about it. Neutrality in Wikipedia is not ignoring facts and opinions but presenting both sides of a story.--MariusM 20:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The seminar was held. Comparing Urîtu (who is on the payroll of Moldova's Secret Service) with Nelson Mandela takes guts. But is this about an edit to this article? Or to the Human rights in Transnistria article (if so, post there, not here)? And if not an edit to this article, what is the purpose of the post? Please focus your discussions on actual edits to the main page article. - Mauco 23:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Do you have some source for your "Secret Service Connection"? I presume not. On the other hand, the helsinki Committee is a well-established NGO, which qualifies as a reputable source, whether you like it or not. By consequence, its Moldovan branch and its leader qualify, too. Dpotop 09:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Correction: The international Helsinki is a federation. The local organizations are independent. They are not branches. They affiliate with the federation, but the federation has nothing to do with the work of the locals, no interference, and no responsibility. Work done by one is independent of the other, and there is no cross-endorsement of any kind. If you evaluate the output by Urîtu over a period of several years, you will be able to correctly form a true picture of the nature of his activities. - Mauco 12:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not sure why MariusM opened this discussion. Urîtu's homemade Helsinki-group is not mentioned in the article, so why are we even discussing this? - Mauco 12:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Helsinki Comitee of Human Rights in Moldova]]

message: This section needs to be expanded. It currently only has a subsection about the customs conflict. - Mauco 23:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the international relations of Transnistria should first exist. Otherwise, you'll just make fiction prose here. Dpotop 09:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  A fair overview of Transnistria's international relations, as well as lack of international relations, are in order. I am not asking for anything more than a true, factual picture of the extent of their international relations, such as they currently exist at this point in time. - Mauco 12:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  why dont you make a proposal and post it here first before you change the main page, thats the way to avoid all the reverts from the usual edit warriors that hate transnistria, I am neutral but I like to see the proposal first and then decide, I dont want to take sides but if the information is true it has to be in the article Pernambuco 12:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will see what I can do. - Mauco 14:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: They have relations with Abkhazia and South Ossetia and they are supported by Russia, which still don't recognited Transnistria.--MariusM 09:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This section don't need to be expanded. There are no relations. Catarcostica 09:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  International relations 

message: I would like to remove the photo of the tank from this article. I think it is irrelevant, especially since the text of the article does not mention it. Tank monuments are fairly common throughout the post-Soviet sphere, and thus not particularly representative of Transnistria. There is no reason to single Transnistria out unless such tank monuments are also highlighted in other articles, which they are not. I cite, for instance, Zhytomyr which has a similar monument (as can be seen here), yet said monument is not shown or mentioned in Wikipedia's Zhytomyr-article. - Mauco 14:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you so upset by this photo? Transnistrian authorities love this monument.--MariusM 09:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really care either way, I think it looks quite nice actually. If you think it has any negative of positive effect on the ambience of Transnistria I think you are wrong, both of you. To me it's just another picture, but I know it isn't that way to others. It is already on the Tiraspol page, which it definately should be, so maybe we could lose it on the Tansnistria page but what would we have their instead? What are the iconic pictures of Transnistria, a river and a building with some trees in front of it? I think we should be increasing the photo count, not reducing it. Jonathanpops 17:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  yes, what happeded to the person who said there should be more photos and not less, this was a month ago (????) I think, not sure of the date. and then nothing happened with that, I agree with him and with jonathanpops, it makes a nicer page with many pictures please add more. Photo of Sheriff football team please, and they have players from my country on the team Pernambuco 17:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tank photo unjustified, unfair and undue weight 

message: *This contains 3 issues that have not been dealt with, or have, but resurface:
**Is Mark Almond's characterisation of Transnistrian regime that of an Oxford scholar or that of a BHHRG chief?
**:I think everything that Mark Almond say about Transnistria he is saying as the chief of British Helsinki Human Rights Group (which, contrary of Moldovan Helsinki Comitee of Stefan Urîtu, is not affiliated at International Helsinki Federation). If we quote Almond we need to tell at which group he belongs, and BHHRG is relevant, as this group published several articles about Transnistria.--MariusM 21:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dc76 19:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

text: the first one, without a doubt, i mean the current one, it is the one that has the name that the article has, and you can read it, the last one is also good but you cant read it, and the green stuff is confusing Pernambuco 04:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The last one is good, but needs to be worked upon. I suggest to simply take everything from the first one (colors, big names) and add eveything new from the third one (likewise in readable fonts). PS: Who's in control of the southern regions? --Illythr 11:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: yeah, the thrid one looks all right. Maybe it could be trimmed a bit then resized so that Transnistria is bigger and you can read the text easier, with a label for Moldova and Ukraine so you can tell where it is. Jonathanpops 16:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  the third one is a mess, if you use it make it smaller (Crop), so Transnistria is bigger, and label everything, like the first map has it, it can be seen. also what do the colors mean, what is the green stuff, and who controls the green? Pernambuco 16:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Green are the areas under the jurisdiction of the Joint Control Commission, the peacekeepers. I know for sure that the Bender area is under de facto control of Transnistria. Dunno about the rest. --Illythr 23:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Map 2 is a start, but add the Moldova and Transnistria labels and put a legend in there somewhere to explain the outlined areas.  Map 3 is not only hard to read, adding less than useful labels, but it also over-emphasizes the "Moldovanness" of Transnistria by showing internal divisions of Moldova (including the capital). └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 00:12, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, I just noticed that Map 2 has internal divisions of Moldova as well.  They should be removed.  It puts the emphasis on Moldova. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 00:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I was going to say that we don't need to see the whole of Moldova, only the whole of Transnistria expanded with a bit of Moldova and Ukraine either side with labels so you know which part of Europe Transnistria is in. Or something like this: http://www.transdniestria.com/Sections-article5-p1.phtml only better looking with Transnistria bigger but have the little Europe map in a corner. Jonathanpops 00:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You mean, like Moldova controls territory which was never historically part of Moldova, and never part of Romania either? And like how they want to control even more (as witnessed by the claim to want Transnistria, even though it has never been part of Moldova). - Mauco 21:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are discrediting yourself claiming that Transnistria was never part of Moldova. It was part of Moldova from 1924, when Soviet Union created the Moldovan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, and also part of MSSR after 1940. It is still part of Moldova, even if you don't like it.--MariusM 16:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Excuse me, "It was part of Moldova from 1924"? What Moldova are you talking about? In 1924, Moldova was part of Romania. Transnistria was part of the Soviet Union. The Republic of Moldova did not exist until 1991. The Dniester river was the border between Romania and the Soviet Union. Within the Soviet Union, Transnistria was a separate autonomous entity, the MASSR, with Tiraspol as its capital. Although not a separate country, it was more comparatively sovereign than Moldova was at the same time. Moldova was never even an autonomous republic within Romania. And to make it clear for you: Transnistria was never part of an independent Moldovan state, and was never part of Moldova. Likewise, the first-ever independent Moldovan state, the Principality of Moldavia, also never included Transnistria. By the time Moldova declared independence, the Transnistrians had already made it clear that they had no intention to be part of that arrangement. They had left the MSSR a year before. Transnistria has no historical belonging to Moldova (nor to Romania) and it clearly doesn't want to be part of Moldova in the future either. - Mauco 00:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Map #1 is the right one, for the simple reason that it corresponds to how all WP:RS display Transnistria: RFE/RL, BBC, Deutsche Presse-Agentur, and other top news agencies worldwide. If Dc76 or another Romanian wants a homemade map, then first show us which reliable source displays Transnistria that same way. - Mauco 21:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the webpage of Dubăsari district under Moldovan control . You can see in white areas under Moldovan control and in green areas under Transnistrian control. Areas under Moldovan control corespond with the 3rd map.--MariusM 16:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  Map#3 is the right one. It the reality even if I don't liked. What everybody else seem to not understand is this: in the first map is all the land that PMR claims, but not the land that is actually controlled by them. From the neutral point of view #3 look better. Answer to Mauco:( daca esti bonaparte si ai ceva interese pe care nu le inteleg acu ..te rog trimite un mesaj ca altfel mori cu mine de gat)...... WP:RS display a map of land not controlled by Moldova's government which is not the same as transnistrian(PMR) controlled territory. There is a "buffer" zone between them. Reliable source? This one is as reliable as anyone other : http://www.russiablog.org/Transnistria-map.jpg  or this one to make pro-russian guys fell better: http://www.geographyiq.com/countries/md/Moldova_map_flag_geography.htm
Catarcostica 06:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm. The "Bonaparte"-touch from a user who showed up here less than 3 days ago, and hardly edited anything else than Transnistria since then. - Mauco 00:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I like the map #3 but it should be a little changed. 3 of the green areas are teritories claimed by Transnistria but controlled by Moldovan government, the southern 4th green area is a teritorry in Bessarabia controlled by Transnistria - maybe it need a different color. Explanation bellow the map is also needed.--MariusM 16:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text:  thank you, this is a good explanation, and if you want I have an image editor, and I can change the maps for you pixel by pixel after theres an agreement, of course only after everyone has a chance to decide Pernambuco 20:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome, for the first. And thank you, you are also welcome, for the second. Can you do better than pixel by pixel? I can only if we start the image from scratch with one of the editors I use (Mayura), which I really don't want to spend a whole day with. You see, I am trying to, sort of, you know, volonteer someone else, so I don't have to do it. :-) :Dc76 20:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  you can "volunteer me" I use Adobe Photoshop it is a very powerful program, I am not an expert in it but I will do the changes you say, just give me the instructions when youre ready to change and I can work from these original images. Just one thing I want to say, I will post it here first so you can approve it, I will not put it on the main page just like that first, without all of you here getting to see it first and say O.k. Pernambuco 21:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Before you get too far ahead of yourself, can we get some sources for the first three (northernmost) green areas. It goes without saying, of course, that he sources must adhere to Wikipedia's reliable sources criteria. No reliable sources that I have ever seen is showing this, in green, blue, red, or any other color. Map #3 vastly overstates the amount of left bank territory which is under effective Moldovan jurisdiction. - Mauco 00:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moldova controls on the left bank 8 1/2 villages: once - Cocieri, Molovata Noua, Roghi, Vasilevca and 1/2 of Corjova; twice - Cosnita, Pirita, Pohrebea and Dorotcaia. That's it, no more land. The boundary of the lands of each village has not been changed for generations. The only thing one needs to do, is to go along the administrative boundary between villages. The same on the right hand side, near Tighina. There, of course, we should include Varnita and Copanca, which although controled by Moldova solely, are claimed by Tiraspol. One sourse can be the website of the Dubasari raional council. Another sourse can be any Soviet era map that has the boundary between the lands of localities. (On the same tokken on should mention that when a solution to the conflict would be found, the boundary issue will be reviewed, and some adjustments could be made, but untill then, just like Transnistria's separation from Moldova - is in total flux. The only thing we show is who controls/claims what. Or rather, what is the authority of the Joint Control Commission, which to be correct goes over all of Corjova then. - not sure about the city Dubasari, but seems not):Dc76 00:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues that remain or surface again 

message: Aww, the video was kind of nice... It's a bit biased and contains a couple of pretty bad factual errors ("banned Moldovan language"? Uh-uh), but most of the footage is good, IMO. --Illythr 01:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I actually like it too (except for the serious factual error on weapons smuggling, which is rehash of the old hearsay and which has never been proven by anyone). My removal was due to longstanding practice of reverting edits by permanently banned users. If you want to include it, or at least discuss it first, then I can assure you that my reaction will be completely different. - Mauco 02:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I'd rather have it in. I don't recall the reporter actually addressing the smuggling as fact. He does mention it a lot, but I think it's not some malicious effort on his part, but rather, he's just repeating what is being said about it all the time. The two factual errors I noted were "banned Moldovan language, leaving only Russian" and "secret Russian base" (yeah, very secret). --Illythr 13:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: yesterday i was forced to revert Bonaparte and mariusM cause they were damaging the page with changes that hadnt been discussing, and overwriting, and so on, but the thing that I left in place was that video, cause I liked it, even if it was from Bonaparte it was a good addition, if you want to keep it or include it for the page thats fine and I support that of course. its from a reliable source, from BBC . . ...... but some of the other links need to be looked at, there are two from the same source RFERL.org and please pick just one, not two are needed, one is enough from each source Pernambuco 17:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, the video's back in now. --Illythr 19:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Google video

message: As mentioned above, obvious sockpuppet User:Catarcostica has now been blocked for good. He was another sockpuppet of permabanned User:Bonaparte.
He of course also made some undiscussed mainspace edits, which no one took seriously except for User:MariusM who twice in one day attempted to restore them after other editors had already correctly reverted them.  
MariusM then got upset when User:Pernambuco, among others, rv'ed the article back to a non-Bonaparte version. Nevertheless, rather than lashing into Pernambuco and criticizing in public like MariusM did, here on this Talk page, I think we should instead say thank you for a good job of patrolling the page and watching out for POV pushers, vandals, and sockpuppets of banned users.
The only edit which was halfway good and which no one reverted (until now) was the inclusion of the Google video. Pernambuco was probably right in letting it stand, since we didn't know at the time that we were dealing with Bonaparte. User:Catarcostica (a.k.a. Bonaparte) just got banned now. - Mauco 02:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, I was not a sockpuppet, and I'm not!!! But I learn my lesson... so from now I will express my view only with arguments. Catarcostica 02:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppet ban 

message: On the WikiProject Countries talk page, the section Location Maps for European countries had shown new maps created by David Liuzzo, that are available for the countries of the European continent, and for countries of the European Union exist in two versions. From November 16, 2006 till January 31, 2007, a poll had tried to find a consensus for usage of 'old' or of which and where 'new' version maps. Please note that since January 1, 2007 all new maps became updated by David Liuzzo (including a world locator, enlarged cut-out for small countries) and as of February 4, 2007 the restricted licence that had jeopardized their availability on Wikimedia Commons, became more free. At its closing, 25 people had spoken in favor of either of the two presented usages of new versions but neither version had reached a consensus (12 and 13), and 18 had preferred old maps.As this outcome cannot justify reverting of new maps that had become used for some countries, seconds before February 5, 2007 a survey started that will be closed soon at February 20, 2007 23:59:59. It should establish two things:
*whether the new style maps may be applied as soon as some might become available for countries outside the European continent (or such to depend on future discussions),
*which new version (with of without indicating the entire European Union by a separate shade) should be applied for which countries.
Please read the discussion (also in other sections α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, η, θ) and in particular the arguments offered by the forementioned poll, while realizing some comments to have been made prior to updating the maps, and all prior to modifying the licences, before carefully reading the presentation of the currently open survey. You are invited to only then finally make up your mind and vote for only one option.There mustnot be 'oppose' votes; if none of the options would be appreciated, you could vote for the option you might with some effort find least difficult to live with - rather like elections only allowing to vote for one of several candidates. Obviously, you are most welcome to leave a brief argumentation with your vote. Kind regards Buffadren 13:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries 

message: Let us not forget this word: "unrecognized". --Criterium 15:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let us clean up this article. --Criterium 15:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Post your complaints here...if you have some..--Criterium 16:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that there aren't any complaints..so everything it's OK--Criterium 16:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: unrecognized

message: -Criterium  You are vandalising the main page and are now warned. Buffadren 16:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Post your issues step by step if you have any. --Criterium 16:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any of your issues, so stop laming about it. You cry like a baby. Post your fucking issues if you have any. --Criterium 16:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Criterium...just stop !!! This is not helping nobody. With just one click all your changes are gone be reverted. This is not the way... -Catarcostica 17:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandal User 

message: Stop editing your crap into this page, I don't care if it is recognized or not.  Many people refuse to recognize Israel, so should that page be vandalized in the way that you are doing?  Knock it off.  Johnx4
: Like this had ever stopped anyone... :(
: PS: Please, add new topics to the bottom of the page. --Illythr 21:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FAO Criterium

message: :Image:Transnistria rubla.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Transnistria rubla.jpg