Talk:Call signs in North America

message: Does this article serve any useful purpose that is not better set out in callsign?  I just corrected two fundamental errors here that I had already fixed in callsign months ago.  I think a merger is indicated.  18.26.0.18 04:53, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled comment

message: A recent edit did a search-and-replace of "call sign" for "callsign" throughout the article.  I do not think this is the Wikipedia way; either form is acceptable, so editors should not change an article from the form with which it was written.  (For the same reason I'm not going to change it back.)  The same edit also changed "initialism" into "initialization" so it may just be a bad spell-checker run amok.  My personal preference is for one word, "callsign", but the FCC uses "call sign" and many others use "call letters" or just "calls".  18.26.0.18 03:54, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Callsign" versus "call sign" 

message: This article doesn't answer the fundamental question. Why do these exist? We get on fine without them in the UK, and they are not exactly snappy marketing tools. What is the point of them? Who made the decision to use them and why? 82.35.34.11 22:46, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever reasons governments may have had for introducing call signs in the 1920s are probably out-of-scope for this article.  The short answer to your question is: there are more than 20,000 broadcast stations in North America.  How else are you going to keep them all straight?  (The UK gets on fine without a lot of things USians consider necessary, as one might well expect for a country the size of Minnesota!)  121a0012 02:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: The correct comparison is 225,000 km² versus 245,000 km².  121a0012 02:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Congratulations for introducing an irrelevant strawman.  Do you have a real point?  121a0012 01:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: That's some pretty interesting and well written stuff. You should incorporate that into the article!! --Pilotboi / talk / contribs 22:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A bit after the fact, but I agree that the above info would add greatly to the article, and explain WHY we have call signs in the US by contrasting our system to the UK.  Adding Australia (purely because of the cultural similarities) would also be very interesting if someone had that info.  Sources, too.  Pharmboy 01:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why???

message: *KDKA got its callsign as a result of the point in time in which it was licensed; it was the first non-government licensed station (other non-gov stations were amateur and had random calls) and was assigned the next available call in the sequence. This was by the Bureau of Navigation, predating the FCC and the K-W/Mississippi rule (though during a hiatus between June 1920 and April 1921 of the Bureau's rule of giving K-calls to ships and W-calls to land stations). The restoration of that ship/land K/W rule also led to the assignment of WBAP. http://earlyradiohistory.us/recap.htm . Also, http://earlyradiohistory.us/kwtrivia.htm has more trivia on K/W anomalies. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 06:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: K anomalies

message: I notice that astronaut Clayton Anderson has been call-signing as "KISS" during informal radio communications with mission control. For instance, during the farewell ceremony as the STS-120 crew were leaving the ISS Anderson (from Nebraska) played music ("Danny Boy", to welcome newly arrived crew member Dan Tani) over the comm link with Houston, saying that he was broadcasting as "KISS Radio".--Coconino 20:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Informal use on International Space Station 

message: To the best of my knowledge, there is not any special agreement between the governments of Canada and Chile regarding the use of CB... call signs by stations belonging to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.  Rather, this practice was undertaken unilaterally by Canada.  See Talk:Call sign for more details. Richwales 04:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian call signs starting with "CB" 

message: The article ITU prefix states that the United States has been assigned three letters as prefixes: K, W, and N. K and W are well-covered here, but N isn't mentioned at all. Is it reserved for some other purpose? Are there stations whose call signs begin with N? I've wandered around the related articles, but I haven't seen an explanation, and I think this article is the best place for it. Thanks. | Mr. Darcy talk 18:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are two sorts of stations which use the letter "N" for their callsigns in the U.S.: stations belonging to the United States Navy and all aircraft.  (By treaty, aircraft tail numbers are allocated from the flag nation's international call sign series.  This is explained in the main call sign article, if I'm not mistaken, or should be if it's not.)  I believe I've also seen "N" callsigns for some amateur stations, although I could well be wrong.  One broadcast station (a shortwave broadcaster based in the South) requested the callsign "NDXE", and was refused.  The U.S. also has AAA–ALZ, and I don't know what use it has other than some ham call signs.  An example of a Navy station is NAA at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, but I don't know anything about it (or if it even still exists at all) so someone else will have to write about that.  121a0012 01:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great answer, thank you. I created an article on NAA (radio station); the facility now appears to be in Cutler, Maine, although I found several references to one in the first half of the 20th century based in Arlington, Virginia. | Mr. Darcy talk 01:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I think I remember reading that, as "N" is the initial used for US Navy stations, the "A" series are US Army stations. I have nothing to back this up, though; anybody else? -- Kevin F. Story (talk) 18:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: How'd you like to buy the letter "N?"

message: Someone keeps on adding nonsense about TV boosters being "impossible" (which I'm sure must surprise existing TV booster licensees in the U.S., and probably the people in the Media Bureau responsible for the rules in 47 CFR 701 et seq which govern their licensing and operation).  Please stop.  121a0012 01:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TV boosters 

message: The article currently states that "For digital television, the –HD and later –DT suffixes are usually not used (one exception being KKYK-DT), as the digital channel is not usually licensed separately from the analogue."  Is there a source for this?  The US television station I work for has separate licenses for the analog and digital transmitters and identifies them both on the air, as ????-TV/????-DT. Thomprod (talk) 15:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you identify any provision in the FCC rules that allows for "-DT" callsigns?  I have searched multiple times and have yet to find any.  I have asked the Media Bureau for clarification, but have had no response.  I am not aware even of any rule that would allow analogue and digital to be licensed separately; it's one license with two transmitters.  ("International broadcasting" stations are licensed the same way.)  I believe the case of KKYK (and about a dozen others -- see my comments about this at WT:TVS) may actually be a clerical error.  The FCC does not restrict what stations may say in their legal ID provided that the required information is given in the manner and order set out in 73.1201.  121a0012 (talk) 05:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  -DT suffix 

message: The context actually is North America.  Most of the world does not assign call signs to its broadcast stations, and this article contains (or at least used to contain -- I haven't checked the history to see if that information was destroyed) information about call-sign assignment practices generally in those countries, including amateur, experimental, and government stations.  121a0012 (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I left a message at User talk:Radiojon#Broadcast call sign?, asking why he changed the article name, but it's been 4 days and he hasn't responded.  Combined with this edit it appears to be a preliminary attempt to re-purpose the article.  Some article about callsigns in broadcasting worldwide may be an appropriate split from Call sign, but this article's scope is clearly geographic, it has always had the title "North American call sign", and has contained non-broadcasting usage for quite some time: mention of the ITU assignments in general has been in the article since the 5th edit; amateur and weather stations have been mentioned since the 11th edit.  If there are no other objections, this should be moved back to its accurate name, or split, lest someone retroactively declare the contents to be "out of scope" without consensus. --Closeapple (talk) 04:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

text: No word from User:Radiojon after 3 months: see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive538#Radiojon.  Seems to have been a drive-by.  So I've moved this back to an appropriate title for the article's scope.  I've picked the title "Callsigns in North America" because it just seems to follow Wikipedia style better (easier to find "North America" than "North American" for example), and I chose "Callsigns" instead of "Call signs" because searching for "callsign" and "call sign" (with quotes) turns up a lot more articles with "callsign" run together, so it seems that's the consensus wording. --Closeapple (talk) 07:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article should not have been moved 

message: The last sentence of the "Short Call Signs" section looks like vandalism to me. Anyone disagree? Tigerboy1966 (talk) 11:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism? 

message: Assume that the callsign WXYZ is in use by an AM station, an FM station, and a TV station.  The three stations are independent of one another - they have nothing in common except for the callsign.  If I want to refer to the AM station alone, do I use "WXYZ (AM)" or "WXYZ-AM"?  ("WXYZ" would clearly require a disambiguation page.)
:The answer is the same regardless of how many owners are involved.  (There could be as many as five different licensees: WXXX, WXXX-FM, WXXX-TV, WXXX-LP, and WXXX-{LD,CA,CD}.)  121a0012 (talk) 05:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shared callsign, different broadcasters 

message: "WNET-TV" and "WNET-DT" unambiguously refer to WNET's pre-conversion analog and digital channels when both were on the air, but should I refer to WNET post-conversion as "WNET-DT" in order to maintain consistency with its digital sub-channels ("WNET-DT2", and "WNET-DT3"), or should I refer to it as "WNET-TV"?
:You should use whichever is the callsign assigned to the station.  Present FCC practice allows full-power TV stations which use a suffix to be either "-TV" or "-DT", but not both.  You've actually chosen a bad example here, because WNET does not use a suffix; its callsign is "WNET" and only that.  If you want to refer to the subchannels separately, in situations were it is relevant, I would suggest "WNET 13.2" and "WNET 13.3".  (Note that one digital multiplex may host channels from more than one primary station; in the case of the Fox-owned stations in Los Angeles, as I understand it, KCOP-TV hosts an 11.x virtual channel and KTTV hosts a 13.x virtual channel to provide a backup transmission path for the each other should a transmitter failure occur.  The FCC has also indicated its willingness to accept a "time-sharing" arrangement where multiple licensees might divide the bandwidth on a single multiplex, in which case the transmission facility would legally have two licenses and thus two callsigns, each entitled to a share of the bandwidth.)  121a0012 (talk) 06:03, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Digital displaces analog 

message: WNYW-DT and WWOR-DT have two digital sub-channels each.  The second sub-channel is a simulcast of the other's primary channel (WNYW-DT2 simulcasts WWOR-DT and WWOR-DT2 simulcasts WNYW-DT).  If I want to refer to something aired on WNYW-DT2, should I cite "WNYW-DT2", "WWOR-DT", "WNYW-DT2 (simulcast of  WWOR-DT)", or "WWOR-DT (as simulcasted by WNYW-DT2)"?
▪ NeoAmsterdamTalkEdits 01:04, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would refer to it as "WWOR-TV (as simulcasted on WNYW's subchannel 5.2)" or "WWOR-TV 9.1 (as simulcasted on WNYW's subchannel 5.2)". --Closeapple (talk) 15:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sub-channel simulcasts 

message: What is this sentence trying to say: these were always four letters, of which the third was the least-significant digit and the second was the most-significant digit of the sequence number.? --Biologos (talk) 07:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly what it says, I think.  Sequential callsigns were given out in sequence, as base-26 numbers, with the digits arranged p213 (where p is the W or K prefix, 3 is the least-significant digit (26**0), 1 is the most-significant digit (26**2), and 2 is the digit in between (26**1).  So the sequence of sequential assignments was, for example, WAAY, WAAZ, WBAA, WBAB, ..., WZAZ, WABA, WABB (assuming those callsigns were not already assigned as "vanity" calls or to ships at the time they came up).  In the early 1990s, the "W" sequence had gotten to W_U_, and the Commission actually issued WFUB (now WJDF 97.3A Orange) followed immediately by WFUC (now WBAA-FM).  Not long after, they eliminated the option of sequential callsigns for primary stations and required permittees to select a callsign before program test authority is granted.  121a0012 (talk) 05:35, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So now I see that it doesn't actually say what I thought it said.  The explanation above is what I understand to be correct; the article as it stands is clearly wrong.  Feel free to edit it.  (The question comes up from time to time because many early stations had W_A_ or K_A_ callsigns that were issued in sequence, but it's not obvious at first glance how a very early station like WMAF, say, could be "sequential" with the big-endian writing system normally used for digits.)  121a0012 (talk) 05:39, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The last edit by Closeapple (03:11, 25 May 2010) clarifies this now (like you did here, 121a0012): with the fourth letter being least significant and changing each time, the second letter being the next most significant, and the third letter being the least significant and changing only after every combination of second and fourth letter was exhausted. Thanks to both of you.--Biologos (talk) 07:40, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Least significant digit"? 

message: The article should start with an explanation of *why* callsigns are used in the US..!
194.90.46.228 (talk) 14:47, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Or perhaps articles about other places should explain why call signs are not used there.  It's just an arbitrary convention, after all.  All of the countries in North America use call signs for private stations, and their practices are described in this article.  Historically, all of CCIR/ITU Region 2 assigned call signs to their stations, even though most South American stations only used their call signs on government paperwork; these are reflected in the international notifications of AM stations provided by parties to international coordination treaties.  I expect you won't find a reliable source that gives a verifiable reason; it just turned out that way because that's how the various countries were regulating things at the dawn of the broadcasting age.  121a0012 (talk) 04:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  why?? 

message: Footnote 9 says "^ The others are WARE (1250 Ware, Massachusetts) and WISE-FM (90.5 Wise, Virginia)."  KCMO (AM710) is also the name of it's served area: Kansas City, Missouri.  Should this be updated?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.147.192.230 (talk) 00:19, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that was mentioned only in passing as trivia in the article.  Also, WACO, WARE, and WISE-FM are exact matches, but less-exact matches like "KCMO" are not unusual at all: There are many stations with callsigns chosen to look like a city name without being able to match exactly.  Just in Missouri, for example, there are also KMRN Cameron, KAPE & KGIR Cape Girardeau, KAOL Carrolton, KCKC Kansas City, KIRX & KRXL Kirksville, and KIRK (FM) Macon might be named for Kirksville also.  Kansas has KCLY Clay Center and KANS Emporia (presumably after the state, not city).  (And in case anyone wonders: The callsign KCKS has been assigned in the past to 94.9 at Concordia, Kansas and now to 101.7 at Hamilton City, California but, as far as I can tell, never to a station near Kansas City, Kansas.) --Closeapple (talk) 19:20, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Stations matching city of license