Talk:Azerbaijanis/Archive 1

message: I'm an Iranian Azeri.But I don't think that Azeris are ethically indo-european.
Azeris are descendents of turk people ( Oghuz Turks). Unfortunatey most iranian azeris think they are ethnically IRANIAN!!! due to political propaganda.
Iranian is not an ethnological term. Iran is a country and iranian means the one who belongs to iran country despite of the ethnical specialities. then southern azeris ( azeris of iran) are iranian , but they are not indo-european. 
All azeris (in Azerbaijan rep. or other countries) are ethnically Turkic. Their Morphological factors and genetic are very similar to turkic people (such as maxillary bone type or other special facts).
NO One  has a good reason to prove that azeris are persian, or indo-european sub-group.
People of Iran are from various ethnic groups such as arabs, kurds, azeris, turkmens, lurs as well as persians. THEY ALL ARE IRANIAN, but they are not totally persian or indo-european.--Dr.Hamed 22:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just look in the face of Azeris and Persians and then look at the Turkic Kazakh and Turkmen, then you will understand why Azeris are Iranian in stock. Apart from this all the historical evidence show they are Iranians who lost their language to Turkic. It is a well-documented fact.
Take care.
--Mani1 12:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

text: "Indo-European" is not an ethnicity. It is a language group. Azeris do not speak an Indo-European language. Western Turks are did not mix with Mongolians and that is why they do not exhibit mongolian traits.  AverageTurkishJoe 03:13, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azeris Are NOT Indo-European 

message: Someone should investigate if it's a spelling issue, and in that case, which is better to use. 
--Shallot 19:18, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  This looks like a duplicate of [[Azeris]]. 

message: This is the last time I am visiting this page as I find it very biased. The majority of accepted history versions here are coming from Iranians towards a turkic republics). Azeris are not an iranic people neither are related. We are a turkic people. Shohreh aghdashloo or most the other Iranians being fabricated into Azerbaijani history by the government sponsored propaganda of the Iranian diaspora and iri. Search up most of these names like Shohreh aghdashloo and googoosh that have been labelled as azerbaijanis and you will see that they represent Iranians in American show business. They represent Iran not Azerbaijan. I don't care about the so-called self- proclaimed south Azerbaijan. Just lay your hands off our country and stop accusing Azeris when your own self- proclaimed Iranian "Azerbaijan"'s problems. There is only one Azerbaijan republic. Look in the un, one Azerbaijan. Iranians do not represent Azerbaijan. A poll in Azerbaijan indicated that 86% of the country wants an alliance with turkey. Iran got 2% vote, Russia 9% and none 3%. So lay off !! And stop trying to represent everything azeri as Iranian to the world. You should have seen the streets in baku during world cup soccer 2002 when turkey became 3rd, joy and parties everywhere. The streets were crowded and people screaming "turkiye-asazerbaycan". Tabi Yeter Issizler
Take it easy, man... Before second half of 20th century Iranians had no influence on ezternal view of the area. If you think that you right support your opinions properly.Yeti 22:19, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dear Admin 

message: I propose to take down the dispute messages in 48 hrs if no objection regarding content comes up. When the note went onto the article, everything here looked very different... Refdoc 22:18, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of POV notice 

message: The new wording for the population says "it is estimated", instead of "it is claimed". What is the source for that estimate? I guess not many people will agree with the estimates. roozbeh 11:21, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
: Nope, probably not, as they are guesstimates. The source - myself. I added the widely varying numbers which were hanging around in the various Azarbaijan related articles here on Wikipedia and gave a sum for the lower end (and deducted a bit more) and a further one for the higher end and added a bit more. The numbers were/are widely diverging and this is quite annoying, therefore a better estimate would be highly appreciated. But 'claim' sounds like dishonesty, while estimate says just this - better numbers are needed. At the moment though I think this range is much better than a definite, but inaccurate number as our anonymous friend is banding about. Refdoc 13:18, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population ''Estimate'' 

message: I have been asked by two different contributors to take a look at the Azerbaijanis article, and other related articles. My initial glance shows too much reverting.
These excessive reverts are being done by "logged-in contributors" just as much as by "anonymous" ones. That's the problem, as I see it.
===Find common base===
The solution I'm going to propose is this:
*Find a common base in any disputed version; instead of reverting the whole thing, make sure you preserve at least one good part of it.
For example, if someone adds a good header (but also deletes or mangles a passage of text you cherish), DON'T revert the whole thing, but DO cut and paste that good header.
More advice to come, after I make a few edits to demonstrate what I mean. (Oh, and who am I to jump in and give all this advice? Well, I've been at Wikipedia longer than 99% of the current contributors, for one thing :-) --Uncle Ed 12:57, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been trying to do just that in the recent edits, and have come to your "use a good part" independently. The problem is that it may solve one side of the problem, but not the other. I agree that half is better than nothing, and I'm doing that. roozbeh 13:41, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
uniting previous Turkic inhabitants. The later group also believe that prior to that there were also traces of Caucasian peoples, such as the tribe of Chols as well as Indo-Europeans, who are often labeled as Iranic people. - can you support this thesis? Why do you claim that previous inhabitans were Turkic with only traces of Inouropeans and Caucassians. As far as I know this is highly controversial in the view of mainstream science.Yeti 10:47, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Too many reverts

message: The solution I'm going to propose is this:
*Find a common base in any disputed version; instead of reverting the whole thing, make sure you preserve at least one good part of it.
For example, if someone adds a good header (but also deletes or mangles a passage of text you cherish), DON'T revert the whole thing, but DO cut and paste that good header.
More advice to come, after I make a few edits to demonstrate what I mean. (Oh, and who am I to jump in and give all this advice? Well, I've been at Wikipedia longer than 99% of the current contributors, for one thing :-) --Uncle Ed 12:57, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been trying to do just that in the recent edits, and have come to your "use a good part" independently. The problem is that it may solve one side of the problem, but not the other. I agree that half is better than nothing, and I'm doing that. roozbeh 13:41, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
uniting previous Turkic inhabitants. The later group also believe that prior to that there were also traces of Caucasian peoples, such as the tribe of Chols as well as Indo-Europeans, who are often labeled as Iranic people. - can you support this thesis? Why do you claim that previous inhabitans were Turkic with only traces of Inouropeans and Caucassians. As far as I know this is highly controversial in the view of mainstream science.Yeti 10:47, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Find common base

message: Would the Azerbaijani person, who is lecturing everybody on his blatant  P O V  , while calling any aposthates from his opinion "vandals" (sic), quit his shameful conduct!?
He increasingly sheds (very) bad light on honest and sincere Azerbaijani folks, who are not guided by political kaders in Baku (or receive kickbacks for spreading propaganda).--Deli-Eshek 19:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am growing increasingly ashamed of the despicable fanatical conduct of some AZERBAIJANI compatriots!!!! 

message: I believe that before Azeris can talk about Pan-Turkism a they should think about a Pan-Azeri nation encompassing both northern and southern Azerbaijan. I am a proud Azeri, who is proud of his heritage and traditions. I also consider myself a Turk. However, I am first and foremost an Azeri. Iran/Persia has long been a close friend and ally of the Azeri and proto-Azeri people. However, they have cut our nation in two, preventing an Azeri union. I understand that it is all politics and economics that have permeated this division, but as an ultra-nationalist and an idealist I hope to live to see the day when Azeri can be united again. Then we can talk about Pan-Turkism. Forgive me if my article is not to the highest of standards, I am young and sometimes foolish.
Sincerly,
Ulvi
Dear User, Please use proper signature to avoid further confusion. Thank you for understanding. --Ulvi I. 08:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azeris 

message: Isn't there a large oil/gas field called "Azeri"?  Does anyone know where that is?
:Its probably in Baku but definitly in the Absheron region, most of the oil is from that area Baku87 20:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azeri Oil Field ?? 

message: I added a genetic studies section that might help with the debate as to who the modern Azeris are by way of ancestry. The initial results appear to show that they are native to the Caucasus and have instead absorbed other peoples over time, while maintaining their native Caucasian base. This may not be popular with many people, but I just thought I'd try to make a constructive addition. No offense was meant to anyone as I think it's more important to use all the tools we can to determine the past. Thanks. Tombseye 00:17, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding genetic evidence

message: Just one observation. The Albanian historians by the names of Moses Kalankaytuk, Kalankatly and Moisey Khaghankatli are actually the same one person. This should be corrected. Grandmaster 08:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albanian historians 

message: Azeris are mixed of Armeno-Iranian heritage:
Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome
:Nasidze I, Sarkisian T, Kerimov A, Stoneking M.
   
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Inselstrasse 22, 04103, Leipzig, Germany. nasidze@eva.mpg.de
A previous analysis of mtDNA variation in the Caucasus found that Indo-European-speaking Armenians and Turkic-speaking
Azerbaijanians were more closely related genetically to other Caucasus populations (who speak Caucasian languages) than to other Indo-European or Turkic groups, respectively. Armenian and Azerbaijanian therefore represent language replacements, possibly via elite dominance involving primarily male migrants, in which case genetic relationships of Armenians and 
Azerbaijanians based on the Y-chromosome should more closely reflect their linguistic relationships. We therefore analyzed 11 bi-allelic Y-chromosome markers in 389 males from eight populations, representing all major linguistic groups in the Caucasus. As with the mtDNA study, based on the Y-chromosome Armenians and Azerbaijanians are more closely-related genetically to their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus than to their linguistic neighbors elsewhere. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12596050
So, both the mtDNA (female line) and the Y-chromosomes (from father to son) seem to prove the fact, that modern Azeris are predominantly Turkic-speaking Armenians and Iranians. Their DNA has Europeana and Middle Eastern traces, but not Eastern Asian ones , which one would assume if they really were Turks.
:Please buy the article and read it. Nasidze et. al.  did not use any subjects from Turkey and Turkmenistan. It is curious that they did not since these countries are the closest Turkish speaking countries to Azerbaijan. Instead they used published data for subject from Kyrgyz, Karakalpak, Kazak, Dungan and Uzbek. Another interesting fact about the article is that (on page 6 of the article, which is page 260 in the publication) there is a graph that shows the phylogenetic  relationship of Y-chromosome  haplogroups, based on 10  Y-SNPs and the YAP marker.  which shows that both Azerbaijanis and Armenians are closer to Turks of Turkey then the the Iranian populations. They don't even mention Iranians as the original population. AverageTurkishJoe 06:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: it is here freely available http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Y-paper.pdf AverageTurkishJoe 06:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Here is scientific proof that says Azeris are not Turks: You can argue with people but not science"

message: First of all to the Persian who claims Azeris rule Iran...please wake up...Ayatollah Khamenei is only half Azeri, and was born in Mashad, far from Azerbaijan or Iran's Azeri provinces, and his native tongue is Persian, and he hardly identifies with Azeri people or culture, and is about as Persianized as you can get.  As for your claim that the most powerful mullahs in Iran are Azeri, name a few please.  The most powerful Azeri mullah in Iran Shariatmadari fought the Farsification or Persianization of Iranian Azeris, and was quickly silenced by the Persian bullies of the Islamic Republic.  As for the Republic of Azerbaijan's relation with America, that is because Russia supports Armenia, and the only way to counter that is by forging an alliance with another powerful country like America. As for the Kurds, they are of Iranian stock, yet they seem to have problems with BOTH their ethnic brethren the Persians, not because of any major linguistic or cultural differences, because being of Iranian origin no such differences exist (Kurdish being a sister language of Persian, and Kurdish culture being close to Persian), and Azeris, because they dislike SHI'ITES. As for Armenia, being Iran's friend...Armenia is nothing but a landlocked, small, mountainous, insignifcant country with no major natural resources (like oil, which Azerbaijan Republic has plenty of), and ask yourself why a Christian country would ally herself with a fanatic mullahcracy like Iran's if it weren't a "doostiye maslahati" as Persians call it, or "a friendship of convenience"...Armenia has nothing to offer Iran except alliance in her enmity against Azerbaijan Republic...and last time I checked, Armenia too, had full diplomatic relations with both Israel and America. You also exaggerate Iranian Azeris role in Iranian society...believe me if we had that much power, the first thing we'd do is close Iran's border with Armenia, and suspend trade with both Armenia and the illegal Armenian-run Republic of "Artsakh" (Armenia's name for Dagliq Qarabag). And whether our DNA is Turkic or not, we are culturally and linguistically Turkic, and that makes us Turks.  We do not need others to tell us what we are, thank you very much.  The Safavids were Azeris, Qajars were Turkmens, Seljuks, Ghaznavids, Ilkhanids, all Turks.  Do not try to change history please.  The last dynasty before the mullacracy was Persian (Pahlavi) and stifled all forms of Azeri cultural expression...this in spite of Farah Diba herself being of Azeri origin (father from Tabriz)...shameful!
:From Columbia Encyclopedia, The Azeri (Azerbaijani), a Turkic-speaking, Shiite Muslim people of Persian culture ... . SouthernComfort 16:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From Britannica, The Azerbaijani are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern Persia. This population was Persianized during the period of the Sasanian dynasty of Iran (3rd–7th century AD), but, after the region's conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century, the inhabitants were Turkicized, and further Turkicization of the population occurred in the ensuing centuries.  SouthernComfort 16:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: In addition, modern Azeris are almost invariably classified as a Turkic people by almost all academic sources due to linguistics. SouthernComfort 16:30, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Culturally and racially Azeris are Iranians. Look at the chart provided on one of th connections it even proves it. By the way that person who says the Ayatoolah is hlf Azeri and from Mashad let me tell you that illustrates how little you know about Azeris. They live all over Iran just like Persians and Kurds. As for the Pahlavi Dynasty the are mixed. Reza Pahlavi was of Northern origin from the Caucause region and his wife was a Qajar....so please talk about something you know. You make these claims that culturally Azeris are different? Define the differences in culture? What makes Azeris and even Turks different culturally from Iranians. I was taught that culturally Turkey is a part of the Iranic World from Ottoman times. Please expand give provide the cultural differences?
Funny to hear all these arguments. What you define as "alien" is in fact an identifiable  part of the culture that defines a nation. The problems that you seem to have is that you identify culture as something static, when it is fluid and prone to changes. Ethnically (or better say genetically) Azeris (mostly of Northern Azerbaijan) are  Caucasian people, related to autochtonous population of Caucasus.  Culturally, they are cross between Turkish and Persian influence. You know very well that Azeris and Turks are culturally slightly  distinct from the Persians, while they are in no doubt are part of Iranian culture. Turks were nomadic pastoralists, Persians were mostly sedentary and agricultural  ... Music and oral literature have slightly different tradition and so on. At the moment in practice you see a divergence of SOuth and North Azerbaijan (both Turkic speaking) in different direction. You can see it on this talk page : northerners (I am included) define ourselves as Turkic, Turanian and(or) Caucasian, southerners as Iranian and even Arian. Sources are irrelevant here, as definitions are a part of the game. Abdulnr 23:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azeris in Iran 

message: 1. There are no proofs that Turkic peoples constituted a majority of polulation n 10th century. 2. There is commonly accepted that Scythians ans Massagetes were Iranian tribes. This is suppotred by available historical records, archeological findings, language analisis etc. Theories supported by some Turkic scientists about their Turkic origins are not supported by any serious proofs. The first documented Turkic settlemtnt of the sorrounding areas occured after 4th century. 3. Claim that Sumer, Elam, Urartu, Mannai, Media and Albania were inhabited by Ural-Altaic (proto-Turkic) peoples can not be supported by mainstream science.
Azeri is the ethnicity, Azerbaijani is the nationality (aka citizenship) There is also a region in northern Iran that is called Azerbaijan.
I removed the following sentence : Most Azeris are businessmen (Vahid Alekperov, the head of "LukOil"), lawyers (Shirin Ebadi, the Noble Prize winner), musicians (Aziza Mustafa Zadeh), actors (Shohreh Aghdashloo, "The House of Sand and Fog", the Oscar nominee), and scientists (Lotfi Zadeh, Ali Javan). While i have no doubt that these people are important, I have stumbled over the begin of the sentence "Most Azeri are...". Are there no carpenters, shoemakers, plumbers or farmers among Azeris??? Please reformulate into something more sensible. Refdoc 21:10, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: More Information on Azeris

message: Hi, I've created a stub on the Turkish version of the spring festival, Nevruz. I appreciate anyone who can edit and add information to the article. Diyako Talk + 18:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish tradition of Nevruz

message: Hi, im a Azerbaijani people from Switzerland and i her first Time --> Azeri or Azerbaijani people aren't Turk people ^^... lol
::No your not an Azeri. If somone clearly looks at the history and traces you back to your unsigned user origin they will see you are lying and a Turk. This says a lot about Turkish propaganda. Those who advocat e that Azeris are Turks are not Azeris they are Turks pretending to be Azeris. Azeris are Iranians and proud. 69.196.139.250 04:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hmm...