Talk:Raven Baxter

message: I come with this proposal to merge this article into the list of characters since the character has not managed to prove notability, which mean recieving coverage by reliable secondary sources, independent from That's So Raven and related Disney media, or show impact in popular culture. Thoughts? --LoЯd ۞pεth 01:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely should be trimmed and merge. Article is primarily trivia ("Catchphrases"?).—Kww(talk) 01:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

text: Agree completely. Overdue. Eusebeus (talk) 07:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: An edit on March 6, 2021, removed "molecular biologist" from the lead sentence in this article. JoelleJay (talk), I would like to explain my logic as to why I am going to slightly re-word and return the concept to the lead.
I am going to return it for a few reasons: 
#Baxter was recognized by Cell as one of the "1,000 inspiring Black scientists in America." While this is the least of all the reasons I would hold with keeping "molecular biologist" in the summary of her notability, in terms of sourcing it seems that if Cell Press is down with defining her as a molecular biologist and an "inspiring...scientist," who am I to argue? 
#Baxter holds an undergraduate degree in Biology and master's degree in Cell and Molecular Biology (thesis). She has held positions as a scientific researcher (internships and jobs with Wake Forest Institute for Regenerative Medicine and AMRI (Albany Molecular Research Inc.) and also held teaching positions and teaching assistant positions at post secondary institutions. Generally speaking, I would tend to expect people holding even junior teaching positions at post-secondary institutions to claim professional status in the field they teach. (Here, I only did a quick search, but base this assertion on a combination of the Fortune "40 Under 40" Profile about her, Buffalo Rising's (digital media outlet for the city of Buffalo) "Raven the Science Maven’s “Wipe It Down” Goes Viral on YouTube,", a profile by Buffalo State, and --perhaps most importantly -- Mother Jones' article "I’m a Black Female Scientist. On My First Day of Work, a Colleague Threatened to Call the Cops on Me." where she details why she left the world of professional research and academia before moving into arenas where you might see publications in peer reviewed journals. This is backed by scholarly papers she did write, such as "“Big Ole Geeks”: A Novel Study on Black Women’s STEM Identity Formation". I also used her LinkedIn profile to clarify a bit for myself the narrative I was seeing referenced vaguely in these other sources. 
#I've actually sat here and though for a long time about what the cut-off for being identified as a certain type of expert might be; does one need a Ph.D. to be a molecular biologist, for example? Baxter certainly was doing molecular biology work professionally, as I mentioned above.  Now, the types of work Baxter does and hopes to do all take a strong disciplinary grounding, and are specifically intent of strengthening biology as a discipline. If we want expertise in the people doing the work to make traditional jobs in the sciences feasible, I think it is important to acknowledge and name the disciplinary expertise(s) they hold.
That was more long-winded than I meant to be, but I did not want to come across as terse or dismissive of your thinking. Please feel free to contact me on my talk page with any questions. Oughtta Be Otters (talk) 01:27, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've only skimmed over the sources, but her current PhD involves the science of learning, so I'd definitely say she's a scientist. Bit of a greyer area if she's a currently "molecular biologist" (as opposed to she was previously), but she certainly has some background in that field. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:39, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Her PhD is in science education, which is not a scientific discipline in the same way that other humanities are not science (people with an EdD or PhD in history, for example, are not scientists). They do research, but it's not experimental scientific research. JoelleJay (talk) 19:35, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

text: Hi Oughtta Be Otters, thank you for such a detailed and friendly response! I don't intend to come off as a harsh critic of Ms. Baxter's work--I think communicating science is critical to society, and is especially critical when it reaches audiences who would otherwise not have an opportunity for engagement. I think it's perfectly reasonable to note Ms. Baxter's degrees and work experience (as you do in your edit); my objection is limited to calling her in wikivoice a "scientist", either in the text or through categories. It's important to preserve consistency within the scientist categories -- essentially all of them profile people known for the impact of their scientific research, and the vast majority are professors with PhDs (people who don't hold a PhD generally do not become notable through their research since they aren't principal investigators--they don't originate or drive the experiments leading to innovations). Now to address your specific points: 
#I would argue that the Cell Mentor blog post is not actually reliable as it seems to be based entirely around her Wikipedia page (which is where it links to, unlike the other bios which link to the person's professional academic site); it also claims she has a PhD, which she does not as far as I can tell, and her PhD will not be in STEM anyway. The blog actually doesn't call her a scientist at all in her blurb, it just says . Nevertheless, I'll note that I myself have been  that list to        -- when they have a wikipedia page I look up their publications to see what their specific subdiscipline is and    categories. 
#I couldn't find any independent sources supporting that she was an assistant professor at Erie CC (it always traces back to a claim she made in an interview or in a self-published account like the Mother Jones article). I don't doubt she held a teaching position there, but it's important to note being an instructor at a community college does not require the same educational background as a university professor and rarely includes any research. It's similar to why we don't consider high school science teachers or physicians or lab technicians scientists -- their impact on science is extremely important, but they are not engaged in original experimental research themselves. I would also argue peer-reviewed research publications, being such a critical component of science, should also be necessary for the title; there is no other way to contribute to the wider scientific understanding of a subject.
#The predominant issue I have with expanding whom we (Wikipedia) define a "scientist" is that the term carries a rather stronger meaning when coming from a news/reference source -- it implies expertise in a way that doesn't really exist when you're just considering your personal criteria for the title. When news outlets discuss specific scientists, it's overwhelmingly in the context of expert advice or new discoveries, and the people referenced in these cases are typically tenured research professors or heads of biotech research labs (a low cutoff for "expertise" is an h-index of 20). Laypeople then automatically assign authority to people the media tell them are scientists because they expect that level of expertise. The danger with this is that reporters occasionally misidentify or mischaracterize the credentials of someone, either unintentionally or as an attempt at balance. This misplaced trust can and does lead to harm -- see for example the "experts" touted by anti-vax proponents and climate change "skeptics" ( this review does a great job discussing the credentials of claims-makers, and the role of media in establishing authority--). JoelleJay (talk) 19:25, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Oughtta Be Otters, thank you so much for the kind words! I absolutely agree the positive societal impact of a lot of people, particularly from underrepresented groups, is unfortunately decoupled from the criteria Wikipedia uses for notability. Without strong media coverage, we just cannot capture the keystone effect of merely being visible as a minority STEM researcher. One of my earliest heroes was Mae Jemison, who was the subject of my 4th grade WASL test -- it was really inspiring as a 9-year-old (and to me now, of course) to hear about a woman (never mind a Black woman!) who was an MD, an engineer, and an astronaut. The reason she stood out so much to me that I still remember that question almost 20 years later was because I had never even considered the possibility someone like me could achieve so much in multiple STEM fields. I just didn't have any female engineering or multi-disciplinary role models until then. I think this was a symptom of (minority) women not being normalized within the public's perception of academia, which is still a very real problem that probably can only be solved with better representation in both hiring and news media depictions/reporting of academics. JoelleJay (talk) 00:49, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello Oughtta Be Otters and JoelleJay
I greatly appreciate your discussion of what a professional scientist is and how credentialism and educational inflation happen.
I hope you don't mind me hopping in here as someone who is both a biology professor with many journal articles, who works with citizen scientists accumulating local expert knowledge, and also, who has collaborated with a professor in social history on the ways that women practiced as biologists in the 19th century while they were excluded from holding professional scientist (academic) jobs.
It's my view that Ms. Baxter's experience in the pharma industry is part of the practice of a professional scientist, as per my note to JoelleJay Festucarubra (talk) 11:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Molecular biologist

message: Hello!
Hoping you are keeping safe and well.
I note that you edited out the reference to Ms. Baxter being a scientist, due in part, to her not having any peer-reviewed publications:
"No indication she is a scientist or engineer (no research publications, work appears exclusively educational/science comm, PhD study is in humanities)."
Nevertheless, I would draw your attention to the SUNY Buffalo article that states how prior to her starting a doctorate in education, she worked as a research scientist:
"Becoming a scientist in the community
Prior to becoming a STEM educator, Baxter worked as a corporate cancer research scientist in the pharmaceutical industry. But after learning that the only other African Americans working at her office were security guards and custodians, she decided to shift her career toward pushing more people of color toward STEM fields."
Which is to say that there is more than one way to practice as a professional scientist, and Ms. Baxter evidently did so.
I hope that you will reverse or amend your edit to reflect this.
best wishes Festucarubra (talk) 10:53, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raven the Science Maven page 

message: The following sources used in the article are non-reliable and should be removed either immediately or once an alternative source is found:
*  (Buffalo State thesis) - Primary source and self-published.
*  (YouTube) - Primary source and YouTube.
*  (Mother Jones) - Self-published.
*  (Spotify) - Primary source.
*  (Twitter) - Twitter.
*  (Twitter) - Twitter.
*  (Twitter) - Twitter.
Some of the Buffalo State University sources not listed here may also be primary sources.
Curbon7 (talk) 10:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-reliable sources 

message: * Text to be added:
Education:
Raven attended Williamsville North High School where she competed as a track and field athlete in long jump, triple jump, discus, and sprinting.
Speaks on science communication.
Music:
Baxter released an updated version of “The Antibody Song” to the tune of rapper Megan Thee Stallion’s “Body,” a hit that resonated with many pandemic-weary listeners and inspired multiple trends on TikTok. Baxter’s song went viral, teaching nearly three million listeners across several platforms about B cells, macrophages and opsonization.
Career:
Raven started a group called Black in Science Communication.
Prominent Talks and Interviews:
Raven was a Distinguished Lecturer at Princeton University
Harvard Science Communication panel hosted by Dr. Syra Madad, director of NYC public hospitals 
Narrated a COVID-19 series for the American Museum of Natural History
Joined Mark Zuckerberg in a Facebook Live Audio Room to announce the launch of Bulletin, a platform for independent writers. Interviewed by Facebook Founder CEO Mark Zuckerberg, Raven discussed her newsletter titled Science and the Culture, which discussed intersections between society and the sciences.
Interviewed by Jada Pinkett Smith and family on The Red Table Talk
Interview with Harper’s Bazaar
Participated on the Starz Take The Lead panel brings together thought leaders, entertainers, and advocates for a series of conversations on the pathways to inclusion and empowerment in the entertainment industry and beyond. Raven spoke alongside others, including fellow rapper Method Man.
National Science Teacher’s Association Keynote
Awards and Accolades:
Afrotech Future 50
Woman of Distinction Award
EBONY Power 100
Keynote speakers:
UC Irvine School of Biological Sciences
Phi Sigma Rho's National Conference 2022
National Science Teaching Association
National PTA Conference
Gairdner's Science Literacy Week
Listed AAE Speakers' Black Female Motivational Speakers
* Reason for the change: Found additional info online.
Please review. Thank you. Bmjc98 (talk) 15:12, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now:  As far as I can see, you are proposing loose "sentences" without any context. This doesn't work; please compose a proper text that explains why the provided information is notable. Best regards, -- Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 05:06, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request 

message: I am concerned that the bottom ~half of this article reads as if it was taken directly from the individuals CV as a matter of self promotion. 
Those who are more experienced in the biography space can correct me if I am wrong, but listing lectures and soft recognition awards does not seem to be commonplace, especially when many of these were added in bulk by a single individual. 2405:6E00:3134:4B00:35EE:2A57:8C9C:9AB2 (talk) 14:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now done quite a bit of cleanup of this, though more discussion is welcome. Wracking talk! 18:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, it's heartening to see other editors are taking on the challenges in this article. I had to remove it from my watchlist after the frustrating exchange above and some harassment on Twitter so didn't realize it had accumulated all that PROMO material again. JoelleJay (talk) 00:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  regarding the final few categories