Talk:Bérenger Saunière

message: \\\I have tried to add a source of information on the subjects of Rennes le Chateau, Saunierre, The Holy Grail etc but my inserts  have been repeatedly removed as self promotion. My book The Secret History of Christianity, is a serious piece of literature and I think it should be given the same type of mention in the articles as The Holy blood Holy grail. I notice the editors don't accuse or remove Henry Lincolns name  or Dan Brown as self promoting. Read the book its a beginners guide to understanding the correlation between heretic art, Rosslyn, The Templars.(Mrmajinka (talk) 22:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Other Wikipedia editors have removed your contributions on the basis of self-promotion and have advised you not to do it. Furthermore, it is part of Wikipedia Policy to not to
promote Fringe material:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard
Wfgh66 (talk) 04:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  self promotion? May 2008

message: "He would be unknown today if not for the fact that he is a central figure in many of the conspiracy theories surrounding Rennes-le-Château."
Though there are some conspiracy theories around Rennes-le-Chateau, largely, the story is one about treasure and mystery, not conspiracies. E.g. a conspiracy theory would be that Sauniere was involved in a political murder, and that most books about Sauniere tackle such things. However, most books focus on stories of Sauniere finding "something" buried in his village. Hence, qualifying this as "conspiracy theory" is totally incorrect.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.202.254 (talk) 15:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  conspiracy theories? 

message: According to such sites as www.viamichelin.fr and others, there is no such place in France.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.178.111.19 (talk) 22:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capagne les Bains ?? 

message: The entry alleges: "co-wrote the 1982 book Holy Blood Holy Grail, in which, unaware they were relying on forged documents as a source, they stated as a "fact" that the Priory of Sion had existed. The book became an international bestseller, inspiring several authors and resulting bestsellers, such as Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince's The Templar Revelation, and Dan Brown's 2003 novel, The Da Vinci Code."
The courtcase Baigent & Leigh vs. RandomHouse, in the matter of The Da Vinci Code, however, concluded Brown's novel was not based on HB,HG; this was conform to Brown's statement that HB,HG did not serve as his source. As such, this passage should be removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.178.111.19 (talk) 22:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HB,HG & Da Vinci Code 

message: I have spent some time and effort researching this topic, and the facts are few and far between.   Much of the evidence that exists (for either party) is ambigious and vague.  Both the pro-hoax and pro-mystery sides are guilty of twisting the evidence.  Although it is true that Sauniere was charged with mass trafficking, that alone does not account for the money he spent on developing the estate.  No other source is apparent.  This, of course, is taken by the pro-hoaxers to mean that no other source existed, while the pro-mystery faction take it as concrete proof of another source.
At this stage, I believe, that any empirical evidence related to this case is buried under so many layers of misinterpretation and misconstruance that the facts can never be known.
Gabhala 23:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambigious Evidence 

message: The journal entries in the article are given as evidence of his relationship with his housekeeper.  I don't quite follow how his housekeeper coming home and fixing his meals is equivalent to them having a relationship over and above employer/employee.  Could someone clarify that? --SilverhandTalk 17:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marie 

message: I have deleted the part of the article that claimed that Sauniere had an "ambiguous relationship with Marie Denarnaud". If you visit the village of Rennes-le-Chateau you will find that its inhabitants treat such piffle with humorous contempt, and that they do not follow the life of the priest as some "mystery".
I have replaced the passages with this addition:
Quoting Sauniere's principles on which he dealt with his maidservant, Marie Denarnaud: "Respect, but not familiarity. Not to permit her to talk about matters of his ministry. What you say to a servant should not be able to be said to other women. She must avoid ecxesses of language, and he must not trust in her age or her piety too easily. She is not to enter the bedroom when he is in bed, except in case of illnesses." (cited in Corbu & Captier, L'Heritage de l'Abbe Sauniere, 1985, page 71).
wfgh66
: I see that your deletion was reverted. Let's see if we can resolve the problem from another angle: under the heading "Ministry", the 3rd paragraph begins "Claims that Bérenger Saunière had an ambiguous relationship with his maidservant..." The use of "ambiguous" here actually adds ambiguity to the article, whereas Wikipedia is intended to reduce ambiguity. The phrase "ambiguous relationship" conveys no information without a stronger term for it to modify (such as saying that a hero had an "ambiguous relationship" with a villain, which actually tells us something about the dynamic between them). But suggesting an "ambiguous relationship" between a priest and his female housekeeper tells us nothing. If the intent is to suggest that Saunière and Denarnaud had an intimate relationship, then plain-speaking should be used; say "Claims that Bérenger Saunière had an intimate relationship with his maidservant..." Unless someone can suggest a more appropriate way to phrase it, that is what I will change it to. Bricology (talk) 19:42, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sauniere and Marie Denarnaud 

message: The paragraph relating to Andre Douzet has been removed because he is widely regarded as a hoaxer and a charlatan in France and belongs to the world of Fringe and not to the world of bonafide historical research. See for example:
http://www.octonovo.org/RlC/Fr/ctrb/ctrb07.htm
Only recently, a few weeks ago during an interview Jean-Luc Robin stated about Douzet: "I haven't yet been shown the proofs that the letters Sauniere exchanged with the manufacturer of the model were genuine" (Douzet is promising to "show" these letters in Summer 2008 - why not straight away?).
The person responsible for inserting the paragraphs relating to Douzet in this article is most probably Filip Coppens, his ardent disciple.
Be warned! Douzet has never provided any evidence to substantiate his allegations despite what the contributor to this Wikipedia article claims (the French can testify to that) and Douzet belongs to the world of the Fringe and not to bonafide historical research.
wfgh66  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 16:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Andre Douzet 

message: I added to the article the fact that Sauniere operated in the capacity of Free Priest in RLC between 1909-1917 following his transfer to Coustouges and subsequent resignation on 1 February 1909. Sauniere received corresondence that read: Berenger Sauniere, Pretre Libre, Rennes-le-Chateau, Aude. These addressed enevelopes to Sauniere are reproduced in several French books.  
wfgh66  —Preceding comment was added at 07:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: = Sauniere as Free Priest of RLC between 1909 and 1917 

message: "Claims" about the subject's relationship with his maidservant are brought up, but not sourced. Neither is the dismissal of them as "myth and legend" sourced. Wednesday Next (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "Claims" about the subject's relationship with his maidservant

message: It is stated that the subject was "tried" in 1910. Tried by whom? a church court? a provincial court? what kind of court? And what was the outcome? what is the reliable source that reports this trial? Wednesday Next (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 1910 trial

message: "There were ... accusations" Why is this is passive voice. Who made the accusations? What source reports on these accusations? Wednesday Next (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Accusations

message: "The popular story" - what sources report on the popular story as such? Is there a core story and variants? Wednesday Next (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: de Sede's obit at  supports the assertions at the section on The popular story of Saunière's wealth - I have added the reference. --Matilda talk 23:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Popular Story

message: "The actual source" - there is one sourced sentence here, which may represent one researcher's opinion. What is the source for all the details. How certain are the details? Are they really certain enough to use the loaded word "actual" in the section heading? Wednesday Next (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Actual source

message: "rumors" - is this section all hearsay? it is quite short on citations. How can "a local paper" be verified. Why do we have an article title without the name of the publication in which it appeared or the date of publication. What supports the story being "picked up by the national press"? Shouldn't we have a citation for a claim that "the conspirators admitted fraud"? Wednesday Next (talk) 17:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Rumours

message: It is my understanding that the standard on Wikipedia is that images of book covers are only considered to be fair use on an article specifically about the book in question. Wednesday Next (talk) 19:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book covers 

message: it is said on the web that there are 'legends' of sauniere having found old documents and some even say treasures buried in or around his rennes-le-chateau church. even if presented as legends and myths, someone should include these in the article. 21 August, 2011  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enlightener 749 (talk • contribs) 23:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the claims date from Sauniere's lifetime, and are recent devised by those with various agendas. The legends are dealt with in the "The popular story of Saunière's wealth" part of the article.Lung salad (talk) 12:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange story 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Under the heading "Ecclesiastical trials, punishment and suspension" the final sentence of the first paragraph reads "In 1899 Saunière purchased a clergymen's directory (Annuaire du clergé français) through which he contacted both priests and religious communities across France to solicit Mass requests (emphasis added)." Can anyone explain what "purchasing a clergyman's directory" means? My reading of this sentence suggests that the implication is that Saunière purchased advertising space in a directory, through which other priests and religious communities could pay him to say masses for them, but that may be incorrect. But as it stands, "purchasing a clergyman's directory" implies that Saunière actually bought copies of printed directories, which is nonsensical. Bricology (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "purchased a clergyman's directory"?