Talk:Cartridge (firearms)

message: At least a part of the material on cartridge manufacture appears to have been lifted verbatim from the 11th (1910) edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, with no credit given. I am sure this is contrary to Wikipedia's policy, and would like to see it corrected.
Marc de Piolenc
:Technically, Britannica is in the public domain, which means that it can be used freely with no attribution needed.  Attribution is only done as a courtesy. =) --Jtgibson 22:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It most certainly is NOT.  Every single word and all material is copyrighted.  Besides too many Britannica articles are in error.  No encyclopedia is considered an authoritative source.Digitallymade (talk) 09:23, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of Britannica without credit? 

message: Is it only shotgun shells that have wadding between the projectile(s) and the propellant, or do rifle/pistol rounds have wadding as well?  I do recognise that the bore of a shotgun is much larger than the bore of a rifle or pistol, so I imagine that too much gunpowder would be more dangerous to the firer -- the reason shells have wadding in the first place -- but I'm curious whether a thin wad is also included in the manufacturing process of regular cartridges or whether they simply load the bullet flush with the powder.  (Like many other action-movie and gunplay afficionados, I don't tend to know the truth behind the fiction. ;-)) --Jtgibson 22:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are too many thousands of cartridges to say what is in each of them with regards to wadding.  Blanks use wadding to hold the powder in.  There are probably some special purpose rounds that have wadding in pistol rounds (not only shot shells). In the latter part of the 20th century Shot Shell design advanced greatly.  The Shot Shell was, in fact, the first firearm component to use polymers in it's construction.  The Brass on a Shot Shell is a cosmetic, not a structural feature.  In early firearms cartridges the wadding was necessary to keep the bullet in contact with the powder charge to prevent a possible catastrophic explosion and to enhance accuracy.  In shot shells the wadding cups used now have the effect of tightening up the pattern by reducing flat siding on the soft lead pellets.  Earlier Shot Shells were made of Brass and Paper.Digitallymade (talk) 09:30, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Wadding

message: (i.e. brass or hull) It was said on the casing page that it was discussing merging it with the cartridge page. This would not be a good idea being that the case or hull is only one component of a complete cartridge. The casing is not a cartridge without the primer, the propellant, the wad (in shotshells) and the actual projectile or projectiles. Much more could be elaborated on the casing or hulls. Some rifle rounds do require wadding to take up space. A few in particular would be the 45-70, 45-90 and the 45-110.
74.69.252.224 05:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Casing

message: The history doesn't seem to really cover the transition from blackpowder to smokeless powder, I wonder if that should be elaborated here. Arthurrh 18:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not as such.  The transition from component to paper cartridge to metallic cartridge needs to be improved greatly as most of it's missing. Digitallymade (talk) 09:32, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Blackpowder

message: I agree that the Firearm brass article should be merged here. I've never done a merge, so if others are in agreement, maybe someone can do it. Arthurrh 22:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: I've moved the whole Problems section here for now. The first claim is spurious, the other two have more to do with firearms than with cartridges, and belong elsewhere.
==
The conventional cartridge also adds certain problems to the gun.
The casing is both expensive and heavy, and the single most difficult part to manufacture.  Generally, they were manufactured by deforming a disk of brass with a series of progressive dies.  Cases are generally round, and this decreases the volumetric efficiency of the gun's magazine.  A caseless cartridge can have the propellant molded in a square shape.
The gun has to have an ejection port to eliminate the spent cartridge-case. Dirt and fluid can enter the gun through the ejection port and adversely affect functioning.  Stoppages can occur if a badly cleaned or maintained weapon fails to properly eject a spent casing, which will subsequently block the passage of the next live round from the magazine to the chamber.
The primer, and associated firing pin add a short delay between the time the trigger is pressed and the time the bullet leaves the barrel.  Experiments had decisively demonstrated that this delay reduced accuracy for most shooters. Light replacement firing pins and hammers have been produced to minimize the delay.
==
Arthurrh 20:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Electrically-fired cartridges still have a primer. Instead of using a percussion-sensitive chemical, they use an electrically-sensitive chemical to ignite the main charge. BBODO (talk) 07:51, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems 

message: I just spent some time now trying to understand what happened with the case here ?
First I have been surprised to see that the case article disappeared. Probably it became enormous over the time. But now, we are on the other extreme, there a no definition anymore of what a case is !
Even worth, there is an paragraph about caseless ammo !
I don't understand why this whole discussion here about caseless ammo. The only caseless ammo on the market today is the 5.7mm UCC Voere, not a big deal man :-)
I'm going to work a bit on this article today. At least provide the official cartridge classification as seen by the CIP. I have updated this CIP page yesterday so that in the references, it points directly to the official 2007 cartridge list (as seen from all European CIP member countries). A *very* good job we could do here is to provide a clear comparison table between Saami and CIP data.
--Michel Deby (talk) 12:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Case definition lacking 

message: Several times in this article, in the sections on jacketing and caliber, the phrase 'for gameplay puropses' (or some variant thereoff) is used.  I was under the impression that this was an article on firearm cartridges and not on video games. 12.108.61.66 (talk) 18:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Have addressed this jargon, replacing "gameplay" with metallic silhouette.  Good catch. Yaf (talk) 04:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is this 'gameplay' you speak of? 

message: The 'Jacketing' and 'Calibers' sections sound like role-playing game descriptive text, and contain a lot of vague and very dubious information. Many or most of the rounds and concepts dealt with in these sections have their own articles, featuring far better information. I would recommend these two sections be deleted or summarised.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.24.213 (talk) 00:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jacketing/Calibers 

message: This article is overly long and disorganized.  Here are some thoughts on things that could be done to tighten it up and make it more readable.
#Remove the lists, as suggested above.  This article is too long to have such lists in it.
#Move the History section up in the article.  Understanding why cartridges are the way they are requires some background on the subject.
#Put in a short section up at the top, directing to main articles on things like paper cartridge, rimfire, centerfire, caseless ammunition blank (cartridge), Dardick tround, and other specific sub-topics that users who end up here might be more interested in.
#Shotgun ammunition should not be mentioned here, other than as a "see also"; shotgun ammunition is called "shells" not "cartridges", and is covered in shotgun shell.
#"Drill round" needs to point to military dummy
#And, of course, references are needed.
Anyone have any additions or comments?  I going to stick this article on my "to do" list...   scot (talk) 15:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: In need of work...

message: On the History section, in particular, I'm in agreement with scot, 14 Aug 2008.
I had to re-read the History section quite a number of times to get a feel for the overall history of the cartridge, and I still feel a bit confused about some points.
The narrative of the history of such a well known object should be sufficient in itself for a normal well-educated reader to gain a basic understanding of the subject matter without requiring them to make frequent side-missions of research.  Not the case with this article. And after two hours I still couldn't tell you why "Integrated paper cartridge" merits a heading, or even really what such a thing is.
Feel free to contact me via email if you'd like to collaborate with me in fixing up the History section. (I'm not a confident solo wikipeditor) - 
Permacultura (talk) 14:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: History section in need of work...

message: The article writes:"Some ammunition is also made with aluminum cases (see picture)".Well, there's advantages (and at least one problem} with cartridge made with aluminum cases.The article hasn't deepness about aluminum cases.Agre22 (talk) 22:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Cartridge made with aluminum cases

message: just to suggest,perhabs this article would be better moved to "firearms cartridge".it seems better and more understandable,in situations in real life where the word "cartridge" may be confused in definition,"firearm(s) cartridge seems more proper,especially in speech.thanks,Keserman (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Cartridge (firearms) is a good example of the appropriate use of mediawiki naming and the use of a disambiguator (in brackets). No-one calls them "firearms cartridges", so there is no real value to an ability to directly wikilink as firearms cartridge. Within the context of firearms, they're called "cartridges" pure and simple, so a wikilink and WP:pipe trick allows cartridge to link easily. If they have to be linked from elsewhere, under any name we can't predict in advance, we can still pipe links manually, e.g. "bullet (sic)" Andy Dingley (talk) 08:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  should be moved,perhaps? 

message: The section titled "Calibers" has become extremely long and has many obscure rounds. I think it might be better to trim it down to most notable cartridges and then using the "main article" tag send it to something like "List of rifle cartridges" and "List of pistol cartridges" or something similar. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 03:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long calibers section 

message: Exactly what happened here? 71.146.26.8 (talk) 00:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit?

message: I deleted this:
:"Most high-powered firearms launch relatively light bullets at high velocity to achieve a specific desired level of kinetic energy. To achieve any given level of muzzle energy, a relatively light bullet at high velocity is more desirable than a relatively heavy bullet at low velocity because the lighter bullet will generate less recoil. This is true because bullet energy increases in direct proportion to bullet weight (at any given velocity, if the bullet is twice as heavy it caries twice the energy) but energy increases in proportion to bullet velocity squared (for any given bullet mass, if the bullet is moving twice as fast if carries four times the energy), see physics of firearms). But, gun recoil is proportional to bullet mass (weight) times muzzle velocity. So, for any given muzzle energy, in any given gun, the lighter (and faster) the bullet is, the less recoil is generated and recoil is always an issue. Also, lighter bullets can shoot flatter across the useful range and offer other advantages.
:"Bullet speeds are limited by maximum chamber pressure, which in turn is limited by strength of the case and sometimes the gun chamber. At least among rifle designs, most modern guns and cases have a similar pressure limit. Up to a point, larger cartridges in any given bore size can generate more velocity with any given bullet. However case size has practical fundamental limits related to how the best feasible modern propellants burn and to the fact that as case capacity increases bore damage with each shot increases. At some point, increasing case size merely creates a design that will destroy the barrel before one could develop a safe and useful load. See Cartridges of the World, various articles and discussions in various editions.
:"Velocity is also limited by fundamental characteristics of the propellant gases (mean molecular mass). With conventional propellants, within feasible pressure limits, a limit exists at about 6000 fps (1830 mps), regardless of case size or barrel length. See Cartridges of the World, various articles and discussions in various editions."
because it's more about ballistics than cartridges...  TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  01:39, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good delete. Definately "ballistics", not "cartridges" and the stuff about recoil is untrue anyway. Energy in one direction always means the same energy in the opposite direction. Can't get something for nothing.BBODO (talk) 07:57, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Missed the bull

message: This article's a mess. MANY changes today. Rearranged. Deleted a lot of superfluous stuff. Corrected a lot of bad info. Added many links. Fixed all the bad "Primer" links i could find. (Primers aren't "Percussion caps", they're "Primer (firearm)". Tried to excise the opinion. Still needs more chopping. Hope to add an original wikicommons diagram to illustrate cartridge parts. Bit off more than i could chew this round.BBODO (talk) 09:57, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: MAJOR Re-write

message: Centrefire and rimfire have been covered prehaps pin fire should be as well?
Pinfire  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdsdh1 (talk • contribs) 18:42, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. When I checked just now it was already mentioned in the lede. I also added it to the beginning of the section on all-metal cartridges. — ¾-10 17:09, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Pinfire

message: The article currently has 20-odd inline tags requesting citation/clarification. My knee-jerk reaction is just to go through the text and remove any content that ain't adequately referenced, but maybe it would be better if those of you out there who know more about this subject sort it out first to ensure that no essential content gets removed. --Technopat (talk) 10:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we need to trim out the tags, not the info.  Many of them fall under the "sky is blue" rule, and are attached to quite obvious bits of info.  Eg, the bit about firing a flintlock is fairly standard information about the system.  The sentence about cartridges being almost universally used is another titbit that doesn't need support. --Dmol (talk) 11:22, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "citation needed" tags... 

message: Don't artillery pieces, naval pieces, tanks, etc. use cartridge, too? --Badger151 (talk) 02:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed they do. Info can be added if anyone gets time. — ¾-10 19:33, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I think that would be a mistake IMO. The article title clearly says "Cartridge (firearms)". The Firearms article here is limited to small arms. On the other hand, the Shell (projectile) and Artillery articles go into detail about what you are referring to. Maybe we just need a Main article link or something similar. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 06:48, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh yeah, Scalhotrod is right, I didn't think long enough before babbling my reply above. Even though the concept is exactly the same, it would not go in this article because small arms and artillery are handled separately. But the family resemblance is clear—the cartridges for some field artillery look just like "scaled-up" small arms cartridges. — ¾-10 23:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: hatnote added to that effect --Badger151 (talk) 00:32, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Awesome hatnote. Great idea. Thanks. — ¾-10 02:17, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is this article limited to small-arms? 

message: This article needs a schematic illustration of a cartridge showing its different parts, including the rim. Thomas.Hedden (talk) 02:34, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Need picture of cartridge showing differing parts, including rim

message: Prior to the development of metallic cartridges were paper cartridges.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitallymade (talk • contribs) 14:48, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paper Cartridge 

message: A round is a loaded cartridge with a primer, propellant and a projectile. Same with a shell. Just because someone misuses these terms doesn't justify including them in the article. This is also the case with "shell casing". This text should go. Senor Cuete (talk) 15:45, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  (also called a round or a shell) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The first line reads: 
"A cartridge is a type of ammunition packaging a bullet or shot, a propellant substance (usually either smokeless powder or black powder) and a primer within a metallic, paper, or plastic case that is precisely made to fit within the firing chamber of a firearm.[1]"
Correction:
A firearms cartridge is a package which contains one more more projectiles and a powder charge loaded in the correct order in which the insertion of a cartridge into a firearms chamber in the correct orientation results in a loaded firearm that is partially or completely prepared for the ignition of the powder charge which will result in the high speed ejection of the projectile(s) from the firearm.
Improper Reference:
The reference pointed to says nothing about paper cases.
Paper cartridges evolved prior to the modern metallic cartridge.  The Paper Cartridge did not contain a primer.  Early paper cartridges contained powder and projectile wrapped in paper.  The paper itself was used to hold the projectile firmly in contact with the powder.  Early paper cartridge firearms used an external powder charge which was projected through a pilot hole in the chamber of the barrel in order to ignite the main powder charge which in turn propelled the projectile(s) out of the barrel.
In the Mid 19th century guns such as the Sharps rifle introduced a falling block action that removed the necessity for the user to rip off the top of the cartridge.  The cartridge was inserted into the chamber, the loading lever was returned to it's upward position causing the block to slice off the tip of the cartridge, exposing the powder change to the firing nipple's porting.  A percussion cap was then placed onto the firing nipple while the hammer was at half cock to prepare the weapon for firing.  This was vastly faster than the way paper cartridges were used in muskets and rifled muskets at that time.
During the US Civil War the Spenser rifle used a strip of primer caps (which are extremely similar to a child's cap gun caps) in an automatic process which loaded a primer  when the ammunition was loaded, which increased the rate of fire even more.
The Dreyse Needle gun used a cartridge that was a precursor to the modern metallic cartridge.  The Dreyse cartridge contained power, primer, and projectile (in that order).  A long needle was thrust through the powder charge to ignite the primer which was located at the base of the bullet.  This design proved to be very superior to other cartridge designs of that time.
The early metallic cartridge cases used a projecting pin to ignite the primer mixture.  This slowed loading considerably and led to malfunctions.  The Pin Fire cases gave way to the modern metallic case we now have which has a cup type primer pressed into the base of the cartridge case.  The case contains the propellant charge, which could be black powder, pyrodex, cordite, or smokeless powder in modern cartridges.
Digitallymade (talk) 15:17, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first line is incorrect. 

message: First section:
"Military and commercial producers continue to pursue the goal of caseless ammunition"
Prove it!
----
"A cartridge without a bullet is called a blank."
So what good is a cartridge without a projectile (which is technically NOT true for blanks, which have been known to kill people).
"Some artillery ammunition uses the same cartridge concept as found in small arms. In other cases, the artillery shell is separate from the propellant charge."
While this is somewhat true, the cut off point in how cannon ammunition is handled has to do with weight and size.  The largest naval guns to use cartridges are about 5"  The smallest cannon to use fixed ammunition are the 20mm (which is the cut off point for small arms cartridges).  When a man cannot handle an assembled round of ammunition by himself then the components are generally separated.
The section titled, "Design" does not talk about design, it talks about function instead.  It's also inaccurate and incomplete.
The Purpose of a Cartridge is to provide a munition that is readily able to be loaded into a firearm to prepare it be used.
Modern Cartridges are mostly:
* Complete and ready to fire once loaded
* Moderately waterproof
* Climatically tolerant
* Available in many variations for use in different tasks
* Facilitate the rapid reloading in self reloading weapons
There are NO references for any part of the "Design" section.Digitallymade (talk) 15:57, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The lack of suitable sources is a problem across firearms topics. Felsic2 (talk) 16:10, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  More errors 

message: under semi-automatic vs. revolver cartridges
"An extractor engages this rim by entering a cannelure near the base of the case."
A cannelure is an indentation around the circumference of a bullet.  A cartridge case has a groove around it's base.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitallymade (talk • contribs) 16:02, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misuse of the term cannelure 

message: This section is name nomenclature but is actually about cartridge naming conventions.
The first line:
The name of any given cartridge does not necessarily reflect any cartridge or gun dimension. 
Could not be more false.
The second line:''
The name is merely the standardized and accepted moniker. 
Is an obvious statement.  We name cartridges the way we name children. Sometimes we use the same names over and over again adding them together who we can tell jimmy joe bob from jimmy james ray...etc.  But there is far more to naming cartridges that just this much.  John I is 6' tall.  John II is 6'6" tall.  John II is called Big John.  
The next part:
SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute) and the European counterpart (Commission Internationale Permanente) and members of those organizations specify correct cartridge names. Cartridge names, when correctly presented, never include a naked leading decimal point."
This statement is false also.  Both organizations exist to provide for safety testing of cartridges in firearms and to ensure interchangeability of cartridges based on their designated caliber/name.  SAAMI specifies pressures considered to be safe for US manufucturers and CIP speicfied proofing standards.
The goal of both is standardization to ensure safe use.  SAAMI also has USA lobbying activities to protect the industry against nuisance legislature.
Digitallymade (talk) 21:51, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section called nomenclature 

message: This article has been frequently edited over the last month, and I've been remiss at following the changes. The article has increased by 50 percent, but it does not seem to have improved. My gut instinct at this point is to revert the article to the version of 6 February. It's not that I think 6 Feb is a great revision, but rather many of the changes since then are suspect. The article is diverging from being an appropriate encyclopedia entry to a treatise on cartridges that contains too much detail. Factoids such as "Hornady loads match ammunition into steel cases" don't belong in the article.
The article's first sentence is sickening: "A cartridge is an assembled package that contains the components that constitute a firearm's ammunition, mostly for small arms." That's circular: what it says is "a cartridge contains the components that make up a cartridge". The February lede isn't great, but it at least lists the components. (WP's Ammunition article disagrees; it has ammunition being just the bullet rather than the cartridge. Merriam-Webster says ammo is the bullet or the cartridge.)
thumb|A modern cartridge consists of the following:1. the bullet,  as the projectile; 2. the case, which holds all parts together; 3. the propellant, for example gunpowder or cordite;4. the rim, which provides the extractor on the firearm a place to grip the casing to remove it from the chamber once fired; 5. the primer, which ignites the propellant.
WP has a better description of a cartridge at the Bullet article.
The history of the cartridge should not be the first section. A reader who wants to learn what a cartridge is should not do a deep dive into its history.
The tone of the article is shifting to something that is more folksy.
Instead of writing prose, statements are made in bulleted lists.
The new headings do not follow the manual of style.
Reliable sources have been replaced with blog entries. A reference with a url and an archive url had the url replaced with the archive url. One source, The Evolution of the Shotshell, appears to be an unpublished 1983 term paper for a college anthropology course.
More pictures of cartridges have been added, but they do not add to an encyclopedic explanation.
The laundry list of common cartridges has grown rather than shrunk. Pick 5 significant ones. And don't list both .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO. Why would the typical WP reader care about varmit cartridges?
This article is about cartridges. It does not need to go into detail about bullets and what they are made of. WP has a bullet article. WP also has a Shotgun shell article.
The "Reloading" section is odd. Didn't frontiersmen cast their own bullets? The article doesn't detail the manufacture of cartridges, so handloading should just be a see also entry.
Revert the article. If material should be reinserted, then use non-blog references and good prose.
Glrx (talk) 17:13, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. The article had gotten way over-written and began to go far afield of the subject.    Senor Cuete (talk) 15:21, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

text: Agree. Felsic2 (talk) 15:11, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

text: Agree. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 21:29, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert to 6 February 

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