Talk:Gulag/Archive 1

message: The "Variety" section right now includes a lot of terminology (e.g., the member of the family of a motherland traitor), yet the terminology section comes further down. I feel this is less than perfect, but don't have a vision of a nice merge. Maybe reorder them so that "Terminology" comes right before the "Variety"? What do you think? BACbKA 08:18, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Only now I realize that since this is English encyclopedia, the terminology should be English, correspondingly and would vote for moving z/k para. out of it. What do you think?  ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:57, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, I liked it better the way it was before, as what you've moved down as Terminology served as a mild disambiguation (w.r.t. "the gulags"). z/k looks the best near "the gulags" explanation IMHO, wherever it goes. I agree though that this way the initial section grew too fat... Maybe try merging Terminology and Variety and move the result higher up in the article? BACbKA 12:20, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology 

message: IMO the Gulag buzzword made us to miss a more general article, Corrective labor in the USSR.
To do:
*To  figure out the difference:
**исправительно-трудовой лагерь, ИТЛ
**исправительно-трудовая колония, ИТК
**исправительно-трудовое учреждение,ИТУ
**воспитательно-трудовая колония, ВТК
**рабочие колонны НКВД
** and my favorite one: лечебно-трудовой профилакторий, ЛТП ("химия" (inosrantsam ne ponyat'))  
*How long the term GULAG was in use and what was the successior? 
Mikkalai 10:28, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  ITK, ITL, ITU 

message: If I recall correctly, solzyenitsin totalls the number of casualties following a prudent estimate at 60 million. Maybe you should look into this and add Gulag to List_of_historical_events_by_death_count.
:First, Gulag is not an event. Second, I find this Gunnessism for deaths disgusting.  Third,  IMO while Solzhenitsyn was good in details, his generalizations and theories must be taken with reserve. He is good as a writer, an eyewitness, a chronist, but not as historian (or politician). Mikkalai 20:10, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Even I have a grand-grand-father died in kind of Goulag because he was a kossak ataman, I desagree with the number even 20 mlns. With 27 millions deaths in WW2 we have every family touched, but as for victims of soviet regive - much, much less. If you don't trust many opened archives, try to take my point. Alexandre Koriakine 23:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death toll 

message: I am amazed the Gulag page doesn't have a good section about the number of victims - is this a new PC not to write about it? I understand that the precise numbers will never be known, but how about the estimates by various historians/authors? I also see a need to have a break down by nationalities. --Ttyre 18:37, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is but a front page of the central office. Its content is even not a tip of the iceberg. It is a snowflake on this tip. There is an enormous amount of material ammassed by local charters of the organization. It would take a huge effort to translate all of it in English. I may see that these peopler (volunteers, in poor countries) simply have no time, busy with collecting and preserving the information.  Mikkalai 17:48, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Your hands are welcome. Mikkalai 17:48, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't be paranoic, just provide references, if you are going to do significant changes. mikka (t) 20:33, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of victims 

message: Recent addition of 128.12.187.115 needs cleanup. AFAIK it is based on the book they added into quotes. Some things are misinterpreted. I have no time right now. mikka (t) 05:28, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent addition 

message: Note that both American dream and Arbeit macht frei are protestant work ethics. That is, Arbeit macht frei didn't, at the beginning, signify a concentration camp.
:Nah, I won't note your non-fact. BonniePrinceCharlie 16:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gulag and Arbeit macht frei 

message: I have found something in this article that I want to comment with you. 
I was reading the article and finding the information very helpful, till I came up against this paragraph:
In 1931–32, Gulag had approximately 200,000 prisoners in the camps; in 1935 — approximately 800,000 in camps and 300,000 in colonies (annual averages), and in 1939 about 1.3 millions in camps and 350,000 in colonies. By contrast, the US prisoner labourer population (on chain gangs and in prisons) remained around a few hundred thousand prisoners. 
This information is, I think, completely redundant. I do not need to know anything about US prisoner labourer population if I am interested in Gulag history. I just do not understand why the article compares Gulag population with US prisoner labourer population. Why doest it remind us that a totally different institution such as a prison had a smaller population that Gulag? Why is it suddenly talking about the US, when the article is about the Soviet State? I can’t see the point in this comparison. The author begins this sentence with a clear “By contrast”. What is he trying to show us? The answer is also clear: that there wasn’t any Gulag in the US. But I was not looking for information about US history.
Something similar happens when we read: 
“Vorkuta entrance circa early 1950s. The sign reads: "Labour in the USSR is a matter of honour, glory, pride and heroism". Compare with Arbeit macht frei on the gates of Nazi Sachsenhausen concentration camp”. 
Now the article suggests us to make a comparison with another totally different institution such as a nazi camp. This suggestion it is not innocent. It is not trying to tell us: “we have find a sign in Vorkuta, it is similar to a sign in Sachsenhausen, and that’s all”, it is suggesting that Gulag and Nazi camps are alike. 
When I look for information about Gulag, I just want that: information. If after reading I decide that Gulag is similar to a nazi camp, that’s up to me. If after reading I want to think about that by contrast the US prisons were significantly less populated than Gulag, that’s up to me. 
Regards,
Sorry for my bad English
Ilich (usurped) 07:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think you are right. IMHO, these comparisons should be moved into another article. May be here: Concentration camp. And, espetially if no one has something to say about it, you may do it yourself.
Mihail Vasiliev 21:17, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment 

message: I'm confused about the "english" interpretation of the word gulag as opposed to GULAG. If this is an article about GULAG it should include information about the prison system and torture and all that wonderful stuff, the entire system the article does begin to describe. However, the article loses this focus as it continues. What are americans referring to when they say gulag? just forced labor camps in general? This article should cover the entire system. regardless.--68.45.21.204 05:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: GULAG not gulag

message: This suggests that Poland was a Nazi state (Fascism is a Soviet name for the Nazism, applied probably by Russian writers). Would you please correct this or shall I do it myself? 
Xx236 13:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not like that. Fascism is an italian system and Nazism is german. --62.179.67.14 20:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  People from foreign countries cleared of Fascism 

message: Since 1939 or rather 1941?
Xx236 13:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  During World War II, Gulag populations declined sharply 

message: I moved a paragraph from the intro to the beginning of the main body. However, I do not feel it actually belongs there. It's a good para, but it should be put somewhere else. any suggestions?
Dietwald 11:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved paragraph

message: These were even officially called "concentration camps" unitil 1929. --HanzoHattori 08:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New category: Soviet concentration camps? 

message: I saw that the NPOV tag was added by a user http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gulag&diff=81683778&oldid=80401057 here, but no discussion ever seems to have taken place at all. ??
:Some fairly limited discussion has taken place, at the top of this page, here vwozone 22:07, 2 Jan 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is there any reason for the NPOV tag?