Talk:Transcendental Meditation/Archive 6

message: Just wondering. Sparaig 21:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any editor can archive or refactor an article's talk page, it depends on the size of the page, how current the discussion is, readability of the page - things like that.  Check these articles out: How to archive a talk page and Refactoring talk pages. Dreadlocke 23:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  who is  responsible for deciding when to archive a talk page? 

message: The only complete text of denaro's affidavit I could find was quoted in a newsgroup. All the other links to the text appear to be broken, unless someone can dredge up a findlaw search for it, whcih I'm not very good at. Sparaig 20:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is complete text of denaro? 

message: Ran a check to list the top editors
Toward the top of the list I found i.a. Sethie, here's what SFacets and he - one of the article's other TM-critical editors have to say with reference to his own knowledge regarding a subject CFacets persistenly defames:
:SFacets: I agree that there is alot of pro-TM biased editing, however it is important to let them contribute to the article for it to grow (after all followers are logically the ones who would know the most about the organisation). Of course the edits made should be monitored..
:Sethie: I concur 100%. Since Peterklutz, 186. has been around, I believe the articles have improved, a lot... I am definatley opposed to totally censuring anyone, unless every edit is absurd... 
Peterklutz 08:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Peterklutz, this is more of YOUR confession of ignorance. As a long time authority on TM "science" and a major contributer to the TM Wiki article, I've never "admitted" that I "don't know what the subject-matters [I am] editing." That is a baseless claim from someone who is conducting a persistent campaign of disruption and disinformationi. You've been warned repeatedly to cease this misconduct, but you've chosen to ignore everyone's warnings. Our patience is about to run out. Askolnick 13:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  confessions of ignorance (copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sethie) 

message: If you are serious about getting this resolved, Andrew, I have two suggestions:
(1) desist from portraying yourself as some sort of wikipedia official, threatening your fellow editors with an array of reprisalswith from the wikipedia arsenal
(2) stick to the facts (one of which is that that your name is not mentioned in the section re subject-matter ignorance)
If, or when, you do this,you may want to consider these rationales for my latest edits:
* the TM-Sidhi Program is a discrete subject-matter not to be confused with the Maharishi Effect (the effect can be produced in more than one way), hence a more encyclopedic and reader-friendly way to present information about these two subjects as (1) explaning what the TM-Sidhi program is; and (2) in the Maharishi Effect secion explain that - and any existing controversies
* When writing for an encyclopedia it is better to summarize subjects rather than inundate articles with lengthy harangues of defaming hyperbole. It's just bad style. Being a journalist, which I understand is your claim, you are held to a higher standard in this regard than other editors. My conclusion, based on this and your bias, is that you keep coming back on purpose to maintain the Transcendental Meditation article in it's presently degraded, crippled state.
* Your deciscion to remove the bullet point summaries with links from the Maharishi EFfect section screams of prejudice. You may not like the findings proposed by ISTPP - but with what right do you deprive readers of their freedom to form their own informed opinion...? 
:The extent to which the TM Movement appears to have gone to test their hypotehsisis is quite news worthy. The world has no shortages of loonies, but this bunch have actually put serious resources into testing a superbly outlandish theory. Where is your sense for scope journalism? People just might want to know this - if for no orther value than sheer infotainment. 
:What people don't want is to drown in hyperbole defecated all over the article by fundamentalists of various shades. 
 
:Andrew if you're going to call yourself a journalist in the future, put your money where your mouth is and contact ISTPP; get their study; peruse it for weaknesses; if and when you spot these; build a case and confront Hagelin and demand explanations. If, after doing all of this, you still have a case - take a deep breath, relax and congratulate yourself. You are no longer to hostage to your fears that TM scientists actually might know something you don't.
To any wikipedia admin who happens to read this: if you're too young or inexperienced to understand what'sgoing on here - there just might be seniors in your organization in a position to help.
Peterklutz 16:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  attempt to find a resolution to Askolnick's edit war 

message: The opening line "Transcendental Meditation or TM is a form of meditation developed in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a disciple of Brahmananda Saraswati. The meditation is reported to be reminiscent of and possibly derived from tantric practices found in Hinduism." Needs to be reworded to correctly convey accrate historical information on the common origin of the TM technique. 
It could simply be reworded as:
Transcendental Meditation or TM is a form of meditation developed in 1955 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a disciple of Brahmananda Saraswati. The meditation is reported to be reminiscent of and possibly derived from tantric meditational practices found in Hinduism.
This should prevent TM from incorrectly being thought of as "tantric" in the sexual sense, a usage common in western parlance.
--BettyBrahman 01:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor wording issues

message: It now appears evident that the congregation of anti-TM activists is not willing to discuss the facts on the ground that prompted myself to ask wikipedia admin to launch an investigation into Askonlick - the grounds being Askolnick's repeated unedits of efforts to provide encyclopdic information about the Maharishi Effect and the TM-Sidhi program.
Since the activiets have not responded to my proposal to not confuse these two discreete issues and to provide summary information and a link to the ISTPP research on the interesting and apparently controversial subject of the Maharishi Effect, I can only conclude that they don't have any reasonable arguments to stop such an edit. 
Instead, the tactic of the activists have swung into personal attack mode (Askolnick and Betty Brahman), in the apparent hope of discrediting their perceived opponents, while intimidating other editors.
I would be amazed if what is going on has been lost on wikipedia admins. In case it has, please find below some pertinent informationthat has been brought to my attention:
... just wanted to let you know that your concern about User:Askolnick's proper participation in Wikipedia:dispute resolution is well founded  he declined to participate in formal mediation: 
     EVIDENCE 1
He did not participate in consensus building for a new article version:
     EVIDENCE 2
Then  he jumped right in and reverted edits without consensus or discussion.  Now we're in the dispute resolution process, once again: 
     EVIDENCE 3
If you take this to mediation, I would probably avoid informal mediation such as the mediation cabal, his track record in cooperating with them is, well, I'll let you read for yourself: 
     EVIDENCE 4
He launched vicious attacks against both Cabal mediators, Rohirok and Wade Tristhammer.  
He has threatened Wikipedia with Libel, and continually uses overblown rhetoric, threats and insults to try and invalidate those that disagree with him.  He engages in a constant stream of personal attacks. I'm amazed he hasn't been taken to ArbCom for violating NPA: 
     EVIDENCE 5
     EVIDENCE 6
Reading the comments of the activitsts, I would suggest that wikipedia consider keeping this article fully protected for the foreseeable future - it's quite evident what will happen the moment it is released.   
And by the way, if wikipedia is serious about resolving the issue: demand Askopnicks detailed response to why the Peterklutz summaries of the TM-Sidhi and Maharishi Effect sections shouldn't stand.
And, when no such appears, feel free to reinstate Peterklutz far  more enlightening and informative sections on these two sub-subjects.
Peterklutz 06:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What goes around comes around... 

message: Now that everyone can't see their name in lights, so to speak, the contributions die away to nothing. Sparaig 22:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting 

message: One of the reasons that proponents of TM are so anxious to delete any and all information in this article which might adversely affect recruitment into TM (and its corollaries) is that the TM organization, with the support of filmmaker David Lynch, recently launched a major campaign to introduce TM into the public schools in the United States.  This has been one of MMY's fondest dreams and one of the reasons he publicly damns democratic government and belittles man-made constitutions in favor of his "Constitution of the Universe" (the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution precludes religious practices in publicly funded schools).  Because of the high cost of learning TM, the failure of the organization's political activities (Natural Law Party), and the blatantly Vedic-Hindu nature of its newer programs, initiations in the United States have slowed to a trickle.  Teaching TM in the public schools is therefore seen by the TM leadership as the quickest way accomplish MMY's plan to transform the entire world into one big happy Vedic-Hindu society!  If there ever was a person with delusions of grandeur, it has to be Mr. Mahesh.  Signed, Dazzled in Danbury,  5 July 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.152.216.49 (talk • contribs) 
:The TMO has tried lawsuits on occassion only to have them backfire. They've tried other forms of censorship with the same result. I seriously doubt that Peter is an official representative of the TMO given how badly they've been burned in the past (eh Andrew?). BTW, the high price of TM was set by MMY himself over the marked protests by virtually everyone in the TMO. The last time a TM insider challenged the price structure, it was John Hagelin, during a meeting. The rumor is that frail old MMY simply got up and walked out without saying a word. Hagelin shut up after that. However, more recently, David Lynch is reported to have complained that no-one is willing to help support his foundation because of the high price and HE threatened to withdraw his support. MMY is reported to have referred him to John Hagelin to set a new price structure. The educational price for TM is reportedly now $600 per person, if a large enough block of students want to learn. The $2500 fee apparently still stands for individuals and smaller groups. Just a rumor, at this point. Sparaig 09:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: TM and the Schools

message: I've unprotected the article, but left semiprotection switched on for the moment. This means that all established users can edit, but IPs can't. Please feel free to edit! It's best to discuss major edits here first, and to avoid full reverts unless you really are removing vandalism. Bishonen | talk 02:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Full protection removed

message: I'd like to restore the following information to the article about TM teachers who have broken with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and are teaching TM or a comparable technique inexpensively. I know some of you have objections, so I would like to know what they are before I edit the article. Perhaps I can rework the addition so that it is acceptable to everyone. David 20:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I put in a blurb about my former McDonald's restaurant in the segment about McDonald's? We use the same recipes, but we don't do any advertising or have the overhead of a coporate HQ and so on, so we charge less... Can I mention us? Please, please? Sparaig 20:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After checking the website, its more like: we don't use the same ingredients, have no quality control, but we do have a few customers that like us and some of us used to work for McDonald's, so can we please include a blurb about our restaurant in the entry about McDonald's? Sparaig 21:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

text: That would be comparable to wanting to put a plug for Burger King in an article on McDonalds. TM is a registered trademark. I know that the cult likes to have it both ways -- claiming that that it's an ancient meditation technique at the same time claiming that it's a trademark meditation technique owned by Maharishi's organization. But the truth is that it is a trademarked brand of meditation techniques.  Because it's trademarked, nobody else can offer to teach it without license from the TM organization. So what break-away TMers are offering cannot legally be TM, for the same reason that Burger King can never sell discount Big Macs and McDonalds can never offer Whoppers. And an article on TM is no place to promote these generic brands of transcendental meditation. The most e-ink that should be given to them should be a brief mention that some TM teachers split from the organization are are teaching almost identical meditation techniques at substantially lower costs in competition with their former guru.Askolnick 23:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What you say aout breakaway TM teachers is certainly the case. However, the second URL doesn't appear to be related to TM at all, as far as I can tell. Sparaig 02:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I can comment on what both you and the Italian group are offering: the TM technique and its moral equivalents  are  ALWAYS taught in person, not via CD or website. Also, MMY introduced the concept of individualized mantras (plural) in 1955, so I am at a loss to understand why the Italian group is claiming that they're teaching TM ala 1958 by using a single mantra for everyone. Sparaig 03:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: As much as I hate to agree with Sparaig, it is perfectly clear that what NSR is selling is NOT TM. One of many important differences is the lack of "checking" that it critical to the TM movement's technique (and cult recruitment efforts). At most, David, you can only justify adding a short statement that a number of alienated TM teachers broke away from the movement to offer instruction in their own meditation technique at much lower costs. As for adding the claim that TM initiation has slowed to a trickle, you would need to provide a reputable source for this information. The allegation of a TM competitor is not credible enough.askolnick 12:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Except for the first word, "Many," I see no problem adding it. Unless you can cite a reputable (that means independent) source for saying "many," you should use "some."Askolnick 12:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Teachers Breaking Away

message: Many TM teachers feel that a course fee of $2500 USD to learn TM is unreasonable, in view of Maharishi's longstanding claims that the technique is everyone's birthright and that everyone should practice it. As evidence of this unreasonableness, TM initiations have declined to a trickle and some of Maharishi's TM teachers have broken with him to offer a comparable technique at considerably lower prices. They include TM Independent in the UK and Natural Stress Relief in Italy and the USA.<unsigned post from David Spector (sorry--the signature is at the end of the main heading above; I did not realize that the wiki treats subheadings independently.)>
:That would be comparable to wanting to put a plug for Burger King in an article on McDonalds. TM is a registered trademark. I know that the cult likes to have it both ways -- claiming that that it's an ancient meditation technique at the same time claiming that it's a trademark meditation technique owned by Maharishi's organization. But the truth is that it is a trademarked brand of meditation techniques.  Because it's trademarked, nobody else can offer to teach it without license from the TM organization. So what break-away TMers are offering cannot legally be TM, for the same reason that Burger King can never sell discount Big Macs and McDonalds can never offer Whoppers. And an article on TM is no place to promote these generic brands of transcendental meditation. The most e-ink that should be given to them should be a brief mention that some TM teachers split from the organization are are teaching almost identical meditation techniques at substantially lower costs in competition with their former guru.Askolnick 23:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What you say aout breakaway TM teachers is certainly the case. However, the second URL doesn't appear to be related to TM at all, as far as I can tell. Sparaig 02:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I can comment on what both you and the Italian group are offering: the TM technique and its moral equivalents  are  ALWAYS taught in person, not via CD or website. Also, MMY introduced the concept of individualized mantras (plural) in 1955, so I am at a loss to understand why the Italian group is claiming that they're teaching TM ala 1958 by using a single mantra for everyone. Sparaig 03:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: As much as I hate to agree with Sparaig, it is perfectly clear that what NSR is selling is NOT TM. One of many important differences is the lack of "checking" that it critical to the TM movement's technique (and cult recruitment efforts). At most, David, you can only justify adding a short statement that a number of alienated TM teachers broke away from the movement to offer instruction in their own meditation technique at much lower costs. As for adding the claim that TM initiation has slowed to a trickle, you would need to provide a reputable source for this information. The allegation of a TM competitor is not credible enough.askolnick 12:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Except for the first word, "Many," I see no problem adding it. Unless you can cite a reputable (that means independent) source for saying "many," you should use "some."Askolnick 12:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Text To Be Added

message: [Margaret Singer] "She headed the Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Methods of Persuasion and Control (DIMPAC) in 1987 for the APA. When her findings were rejected by the Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology (BSERP) for "[lacking] the scientific rigor and evenhanded critical approach necessary" she sued the APA and lost in 1993."
My favorite story about Singer was her report of TMers who were in a state of permanent depersonalization so severe that even electro-shock therapy couldn't cure them...
What's that old saw about how Jesus would be locked up in an insane asylum if he returned today?
Cosmic Consciousness
"By definition, cosmic consciousness is held to be a state in which there is no stress remaining in the nervous system. In this state, the nervous system is said to become so flexible and adaptive in the face of challenges, that no further stress can be incurred. In cosmic consciousness one continues to be active on the surface, changing level of life, while maintaining a completely peaceful or restful state deep within the mind. Thus, in this state, for the first time, a permanent state of peace is achieved."
Sparaig 22:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maragaret Singer