Talk:Battle of Roncevaux Pass

message: Some criticisms to be confirmed by someone wiser or more erudite:
1. "This battle was the last of Charlemagne's first campaign to capture Spain (...)". 
For what I know, it was the only campaign of Charlemagne to Spain. He had been promised the surrender of Barcelona and Saragossa but the leader of this last city was deposed before the Franks could reach it. This frustrated further consolidation of the "Marca Hispanica".
2. "Over the years, this minor battle (...)". 
It was no minor battle, though it was indeed an ambush and a guerrilla type battle. The rear-guard was formed by the elite of the Frankish knights and they were all killed causing much "human resources" damage and demoralization to Charlemagne. It was also one of the few defeats of the Emperor, if not the only serious one, hampering also his ambitions south of the Pyrenees, as shown he could only count with the eastern passages as safe ones. 
Sugaar.
As far as I know, the battle is not featured in the Orlando Furioso, and that reference should probably be taken down. It does appear in another similar work (Pulci's Morgante), though.
Leo_Boon  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.198.232.120 (talk) 16:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Sadly I'll need some days to gather more documentation on this issue and rewrite the article for better. There's much documentation in the battle, mostly from Frankish sources but also some Muslim ones. But, as I say, I need to get first to my father's home to get the right books. 
But so far all I can find online is coincident with what I already knew:
1. Date: August 15 778 (at dusk). This is very precise. 
2. Charlemagne was in campaign to conquer Zaragoza, whose wali (governor) had betrayed the Muslims (as well as that of Barcelona, not sure if in the same date). The treason was discovered and a new wali appointed. The Franks could only watch the walls of the city and turn back.
3. On his way back, some Muslims (apparently relatives of the traitor governor) atacked the baggage section of the column and rescued the former wali. 
4. In Pamplona, Charles decided to pull down the walls of the city. The reason is not clear: either he feared that Muslims could conquer it or he doubted of the loyalty of the Basques. 
5. When the column crossed the Pyrenees, presumably at Orreaga (Roncevaux), but this is it's not totally clear, the rearguard, made up of a large number of knights, was ambushed and annihilated. The bulk of the army could only turn back next morning and find the corpses and (I guess) a good number of vultures (aboundant in the Pyrenees). 
Other thing that I must check but seem quite clear are: Roland was a relative of Charlemagne, not sure if an in-law or nephew or what exactly and he was likely in command because of his rank. This was a military expediion, not a pleasure voyage. 
Legends: we have indeed the Chanson de Roland and we have some Basque myths, maybe influenced by French legends, that assimilate Roland to Sanson and other mythical criatures such as Jentilak, attributing to him some megaliths. 
I'll see what can do to improve this article. --Sugaar 19:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some things are clear. 

message: I've revamped the article partly from memory. I'm going in the next hours to get some books to improve and source it. --Sugaar 10:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revamped

message: This article is confusing. Were the Basques Muslim? Why did they fight against the Franks? --AW 20:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I clarified the reasoning with sources from other articles --AW (talk) 18:21, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing 

message: This is written quite poorly, and needs to be considerably revamped.  As it stands, it is like stream of consciousness, and more effort should be made to present the information in a clear and methodical manner.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.85.193 (talk) 20:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does not read well 

message: I have restored the text after the mention in the lead that the Battle of Roncevaux Pass was later portrayed as a battle between Christians and Muslims to what the lead originally said ("when in fact both sides of the battle were Christian"), with the source it originally had, instead of the text someone had changed it to ("even though it is unlikely that religion was a factor or that significant numbers of Basques had converted to Christianity at the time of the battle"), since I see it as an attempt to imply that the Basque were Muslims, and also can't find anything in the sources given that support it. Like most of the northwestern part of the Iberian peninsula the Basque country was never under Muslim rule, and never converted to Islam, but remained Christians during the entire time most of the rest of Spain was under Muslim rule (during the 8th Century there were also probably quite a few Basque who were still pagans). - Tom | Thomas.W  talk 21:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the problem: neither the page 25 or that whole damn chapter of the cited source nor the body of the article bear this out. Per WP:LEDE, we establish content in the body and summarize in the lede. I'm really upset at what appears to be fraud. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:18, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text in the lead 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Why? Please explain otherwise we need to return to consensus version.Asilah1981 (talk) 17:19, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: As I've explained in both my edit summaries and above, the source itself doesn't substantiate those claims. Read the book. We're at status quo ante and you've already made two reversions; I have at least one more to go. Rather than edit war please read the material. So we're clear, the material I removed doesn't belong in the lede per WP:LEDE. Furthermore, Roland's story uses the terms pagan and Moor pretty loosely. There's a question of the religiosity of the Basque, if they were even the combatants. I agree there might be a general belief that the battle was Christians versus Muslims but we need actual sources, not just a consensus of opinion. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:30, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The Basques were hardly Christians, just as much as the Saxons were during this time. Regardless, the problem lies here in the alteration of source. The claim in the source has been altered by the above editor Asilah1981, that means either the statement was previously incorrect/incomplete in relation to what the source claims, or an altered statement has been added now. By the way, no Spain existed whatsoever at that point. Iñaki LL (talk) 23:02, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no evidence of the Basques' religion in 778 one way or the other. The sources on the battle do not identify them as pagans. Srnec (talk) 01:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

text: Btw I don't full understand what this argument is about... The bit that was deleted is the same that is repeated elsewhere and sourced throughout the document. Iñaki LL as a Spaniard, you must know that never in the Basque country was this episode considered a confrontation between Christians and Moors. Asilah1981 (talk) 13:33, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Go away with your POV and your disruptive editing. Alteration of sources is alteration of sources, and it is a clear breach of WP policies, period. Iñaki LL (talk) 14:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleting statement that Battle was historically presented as a battle between Muslims and Christians

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thread_title:  External links modified