Talk:Magdi Allam

message: I have added a few lines under opinions. As it is clear that his recent booming career is also related to historical events (9/11, Iraq war) and his U turn on many issues (Israel, Palestine Integration and so on)  I have detailed all of them in the same chapter. I have added referenced comments on his opinions from the deputy director of his previous newspaper, as his change of stances also evolved in a change of workplace.
--XPTN (talk) 22:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinions and Stances 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Magdi Allam.jpg

message: Whoever is changing this article claiming that he converted from Coptic Christianity is vandalizing this article. Magdi himself says in his autobiography he was brought up as a Muslim to Muslim parents. I will give you the direct quotes in the hope that it will convince the vandalizer to stop vandalizing: 
: And Magdi Allam himself, a leading figure at the Corriere della Sera newspaper, what does he say about his faith? (I thank Lorenzo Vidino for help with the following information.) Allam published an autobiography Vincere la paura. La mia vita contro il terrorismo islamico e l'incoscienza dell'Occidente ("Conquering Fear: My life against Muslim terrorism and Western unconsciousness") in 2005 in which he wrote at length (pp. 18-52) about his childhood in Egypt, where he was born to parents who both identified themselves as Muslims and was raised a Muslim. 
:: A few quotes make this point evident:
::"The Islam that I have lived, the Islam in which I was born and raised..." ("L'islam che ho vissuto, l'islam in cui sono nato e cresciuto..."), p. 27.
::"My mother, who has always been a practicing Muslim, ..." ("Mia madre, che è sempre stata una musulmana praticante, ..."), p. 32.
::"My parents were both Muslims, they believed in the same God and shared the same set of values and culture" ("I miei genitori erano entrambi musulmani, credevano nello stesso Dio e condividevano il medesimo sistema di valori e culturale"), p. 37.
This is from an article here: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4325] SelfEvidentTruths (talk) 20:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism on this article 

message: this is a contentious issue so every statement must be backed by a source. please stop removing the links.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SelfEvidentTruths (talk • contribs) 20:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely agree.  --Beth C. (talk) 04:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  do not remove links about his faith 

message: Articles should have a logical structure that is easy to follow and not jump from one statement to another or from one period to another period without logic.
It's clear Allam radically changed his opinions. From writing in a communist newspaper, and then a left-leaning newspaper, supporting integration of immigrants, supporting Palestinian rights - from all of this - to what he is advocating now. So the article must be structured logically to reflect this. Thus, the "opinion and stances" section must structured accordingly. If any Italian-speaking user would like to add quotes that prove and supplement either phase of his stances - please do so in the appropriate section. Please do try to find quotes or articles from him in his pre-2001 era, and then readers can see for themselves the transformation, contradiction, or whatever you want to call it.SelfEvidentTruths (talk) 03:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  a logical structure 

message: Somebody has completely removed that section in the last hour or so ?!? --XPTN (talk) 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's still there. The article was simply reorganized. It's easier now to add quotes from Allam or criticism of Allam in the right place. Whatever the issue, discuss his views - however controversial or extreme - in the right place. And if it's criticism of him - it goes under the criticism heading. SelfEvidentTruths (talk) 02:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Oh, I see it now. It does lok nicer now. I've added more stuff, trying to get it fully referenced. I feel the section on criticism will need to be reorganized too, very soon. --XPTN (talk) 19:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

message: I agree with user talk:XPTN that the description of Allam's stances and writing style does not violate NPOV policy because there is no personal opinion in stating that a journalist writes in a very polemical style and makes extreme statements, as long as you quote those statements and also quote sources that have criticizedhim. And this article does both. It is simply pointing out undeniable facts that are easily verified. Also, the article compares his writings to his earlier period and such a comparison clearly shows not only a 180 degree turn, but also a much more extreme approach - one that is marked by making wholesale, general, and very negative statements against an ethnic group. Consider this: Had a famous journalist anywhere else suddenly started writing a statement such as this - "the root of evil is inherent in a Jewish religion that is physiologically violent and historically conflictive" - and trust me (I'm Jewish) that one can cherrypick ancient Jewish sources written in different eras to bring "proof" for that kind of statement - there is no doubt in my mind that Wikipedia would not only lablel this journalist "extremist," but also "inflammatory," "racist," and most probably also "anti-Semite." So, the descriptions used by XPTN are actually very toned-down and moderate, being extra-cautious and very fair to Allam. SelfEvidentTruths (talk) 00:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Under opinions and stances, opinions and stances should be listed. As the subject of the article, now 55, clearly inverted opinions at age 50, which version of his opinions should we report?   While the latter are those who made him famous, the article would be lacking completeness if we completely obliterated the remaining 92% of his life. So we report both, and point to a change in stances who is paralleled by a change of style. We do not report the reasons for this change of view, that would be POV, neither we say that to change one's mind, even radically, is intrinsically bad. There is a fact and we report it. Indeed Allam's supporters see his "ideological conversion" as a sort of "seeing the light finally". His detractors on the other hand have an opposite point ov view. --XPTN (talk) 20:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: As Allam has stirred quite some controversy, the section "criticism" could inflate ad infinitum. I chose to report criticism from relevant sources. I think  the "ad personam" director of the newspaper Allam worked for for most of his life, and who has know him for years, qualifies as an interesting source of criticism. Gad Lerner also is relevant, as he is a Jew, Israeli, Italian, long time acquainted with Allam (they worked together in a few occasion), and refused to endorse Allam's pamphlet on Israel when Allam asked him, providing detailed reasons. I would say that is relevant criticism, and does not constitute POV insofar as it is reported as such. --XPTN (talk) 20:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

text: My dear friend, let's clear up something. Lincoln was a "significant public figure". Allam is somebody who writes on an Italian newspaper, and 10 years ago most people would ignore his existence even in Italy. Its not like hundreds of prominent scholars are analyzing him. It's not like we swim in third-party sources about him. We make do with what we have. Likely this wikipedia article is going to be the most dispassionate piece of work on him. --XPTN (talk) 20:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  artilce does not violate NPOV 

message: I have reread the whole article and have not found one instance of original research. Nor have I found any material that is unverified or unsourced. Allam is not a musician. He is a commentator whose sole claim to fame is his published opinions about various hot-button issues, the controversy he has stirred by those opinions, and his unique life story of Muslim-turned Catholic and progressive-turned-conservative journalist. Ignoring those opinions would defeat the whole purpose of having an entry in Wikipedia about him. It would be a great disservice to the readers, and a kind of blatant, unwarranted misrepresentation of well-known facts.  Moreover, ignoring his opinions or cutting down the Opinions and Stances section would be in itself tantamount to POV, because it only shows that the editor would like to "hide" - for whatever reasons - those very things that Allam wants to be known for and is, factually speaking, known for. Nowhere does the article attempt to explain or comment about his opinions or his change of opinions, unless it's a verified quote from a public personality. There is no attempt to answer the "why" question - why did he change his opinions so drastically - which is the most interesting question about Allam. Likewise, there is no attempt whatsoever to evaluate his 180-degree change - each reader can read the verified quotes, which are organized in a structured way, and make his or her own private assessment. It is not our job as editors to make that call, and the article never, even once, makes that kind of judgment. If you are not sure that this is how articles about journalists are written on Wikipedia, I suggest you take a look at the famous NYT commentator Thomas Friedman. SelfEvidentTruths (talk) 22:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  where in the whole article is there original research? or unverified material? 

message: Whoever was concerned with POV did not respond to any of the arguments (s)he had generated neither contributed to the article in a very long time. Can we just assume that the POV concern can be removed?--XPTN (talk) 23:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing POV concerns 

message: the article partly abounds with adulation for the article's subject, partisan formulations, defamation of critics and omissions. the revision history shows that an IP from luxembourg made this edit a while ago. 
in detail:
* allam was styled "famous leader" or "famous political leader" 3 times with this edit. thereof one was canceled later (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Magdi_Allam&diff=next&oldid=376228440). an exageration for a simple deputy.
* but not only is he a famous leader, no, he also became a "famous journalist" via this edit. one of italy's most famous. btw, also the "repubblica" where allam worked, had to be called "famous" now. see for example WP:PEACOCK
* according to the edit, the "corriere" is more recognized than the "repubblica". again, a pov "assessment" which wouldn't be proper even if it was sourced. in 2003, according to the article, allam changed his mind and changed the newspaper and the IP claims that he changed to the "more recognized" newspaper
* consistently, the IP has deleted the information that allam wrote for the communist newspaper Manifesto between 1978 and 2003...
* the IP claims that allam is famous for nothing less than his "defence of Judeo-Christian roots of Europe and the West" (w/o quotation marks or source)
* an unsourced and pov comment was added to the information about the character of his writing at "la repubblica" ("His own stances were nevertheless made public via a forum on La Repubblica and in numerous interviews and appearances on talk shows. Thus, for most of his career, the public came to know him as a journalist with progressive opinions, who supports the integration of immigrants, especially North African immigrants, into Italian society, and praises the values and cultural identities of Muslim immigrants if they respect the values and duties equals for everybody without distinction, witch excludes any appeasement policy with Radical Islam that Allam always fighted.")
* the criticism of evangelisti regarding the sources allam used for one of his books was deleted. without explanation, commentary or source, as usual.
* before this edit, blondet, a critic of allam, was a "conservative Catholic" who wrote fort he newspaper of the Italian Conference of Catholic Bishops and at Lega Nord's political journal, afterwards he was an "extremist and radical antisemite militant" and "holocaust denier". this description is still partly existent in the article.
* tarik ramadan was/is called a "radical islamist", mentioned in the same breath like "fascists" and Qardaoui. the cited source is the personal website/blog of (likewise controversial) daniel pipes, strictly speaking a reader's comment on this. on this site allam is not even mentioned nor is the accusation ramadan or quardaui (or both) according to the edit made against allam and which ramadan allegedly had to confess to be wrong.
*" this: "Despite Allam's claims that his conversion will likely be met with violence from Islamic groups, the reaction of various Islamic groups was largely ignored and passed over." was changed to this: "Magdi Cristiano ALlam's conversion was criticised both by muslim associations and by progressive catholics involved in the apeasement policy with Islam and christian-islam dialogue." also this change shows which picture should be drawn of him.
(the word "appeasement" was deleted in the meantime)
then we have this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Magdi_Allam&diff=next&oldid=409794512
* deletion of the criticism of zucconi
* deletion of the criticism of lerner
again, w/o comment or reason.
if i haven't stated otherwise, all of these edits are still "included" in the article. it's necessary reshaping the text, in a more neutral way. i suggest the creation of a section for the criticism, which was deleted or which is found now in inappropriate places (headings). 
--Severino (talk) 20:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: On the 25 March 2013, he publicly announced his abandonment of the Catholic Church:
* 
* 
Jacopo Werther iγ∂ψ=mψ 12:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abandonment of the Catholic Church 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080309164517/http://www.magdiallam.it./ to http://www.magdiallam.it/
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080704050848/http://www.dandavidprize.org/laureates/present2006-allam.html to http://www.dandavidprize.org/laureates/present2006-allam.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061220025231/http://www.traces-cl.com/june04/dialoguetow.html to http://www.traces-cl.com/june04/dialoguetow.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110723050255/http://www.dandavidprize.org/index.php/laureates/laureates-2006/62-2006-present-journalists-of-print-media/82-magdi-allam.html to http://www.dandavidprize.org/index.php/laureates/laureates-2006/62-2006-present-journalists-of-print-media/82-magdi-allam.html
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thread_title:  External links modified