Talk:Kerry Bog Pony

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://kerrybogpony.ie/contents/page.php?v=19&u=breed-standard. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  Dana boomer (talk) 14:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: *:Thanks for clarifying; I think I should defer to Dana to make the needed refinements in phrasing on this article, as she is the one with access to the source material.  For your own background understanding, what happens with many of these "landrace" breeds is that they're shaped buy both environment AND human intention; i.e. humans select for the animals best suited to their needs in a given place, ignoring or culling unsuitable animals, but the climate, geography, etc. of the place also weed out  weaker animals.  BUT the other piece is that people brought horses to weird places (like bogs -- or deserts or jungles) where any sensible wild horse would never bother going, so that too was a human influence on what otherwise looks a lot like natural selection; the breed had to, somehow, adapt to an odd environment to be able to serve human needs. Horse domestication is a really complex issue, see History of horse domestication theories - as, basically, Y-DNA studies suggest that there were extremely few male animals originally domesticated, and their descendants were crossed on different populations of wild mares as domestication spread.  So, for example, the ancient ancestors of most of these British Isles/Irish feral and semi-feral pony breeds were probably already small, fuzzy creatures adapted to cold, damp weather when domesticated horses arrived, the crossing of calmer horses with good dispositions on the native animals created a pony that was different from the wild ancestor in that it would cooperate with humans (as opposed to the still-wild Przewalski's horse, which is still prone to kick the shit out of people to this day) and meet their needs for a working animal in some weird place totally unsuitable for horses, yet because they lived in a semi-feral state of indifferent human care, they also kept their adapted characteristics and even developed new traits.  Does that make sense?  And is it adaptation, natural selection or artificial selection?  Or all of the above?  (Sorry to geek out on you, I happen to find the overall topic rather fascinating) Montanabw(talk) 17:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *semi-amusing to skim your musing; overall impression is that you're missing the point. Once domestication enters the picture, natural selection is compromised. Again, please read adaptation and try to understand, and perhaps also Speciation, ecological niches and History of evolutionary thought. (smile)  MathewTownsend (talk) 02:37, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: *Overall impression is that you also are missing my point; that both human intervention AND natural selection play a role in development of these semi-feral horse breeds.  This not a subspecies of horse, it is a breed of horse shaped both by the environment in which it lives (arguably, adaptation of a sort, but not really the evolutionary process) AND by human intervention.  And please, when you say "try to understand," that is implying that I am stupid.  I would hope you could kindly apologize for that choice of wording.  Montanabw(talk) 21:23, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  moved long distracting comment from GA1 to here 

message: This bit from the Animal Genetics article is highly relevant and probably can be used as one of the "DNA studies" for sure:  "Most striking was the observation that only a few of the KB sequences belonged to the common European haplo- group D (Europe: 35%; KB Pony: 13%), and a high pro- portion were within haplogroup E (31%). Haplogroup E is rare globally and no other population analysed to date has been so highly represented herein (McGahern et al. 2006). Within all published horse data, haplogroup E contains 29 of 844 mtDNA sequences of which 66% are from popula- tions in the British Isles (12 KB pony, six Shetland and one Thoroughbred). Haplogroup E also contains one Icelandic pony and two Cheju mtDNA sequences. Fisher exact tests of independence for haplogroup E concordance with British and European pony populations were both significant (P < 0.0001). Therefore, this haplogroup has a propensity to contain a high frequency of mtDNA sequences from small ponies distributed principally on the western fringe of Europe."
*Translation (and proposed edit): DNA studies suggest that the Kerry Bog Pony is not closely related to the other two native Irish breeds, the Irish Draught and the Connemara pony. It has a rare haplogroup that is more closely related to other small horse breeds found in western Europe, including the Shetland pony and Icelandic horse.
:Conclusion:  Toss that in with the citation if you want, re-edit as you see fit. (Haven't found any ref to Welsh ponies yet) But it is a stronger source for the stuff on DNA that's there.  Montanabw(talk) 22:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've added this in to the Characteristics section, replacing the info on DNA studies that was already there. In doing so, I was able to remove two references to the breed organization, which should also help alleviate concerns there. Used some of your wording and created some of my own... Maybe check and see that I didn't screw anything up? Dana boomer (talk) 16:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it looks good.  Nice work!  Montanabw(talk) 21:25, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source analysis.   

message: Just wondering, seeing as how this is GA and not FA, would it work to use the photo of the stallion with the pack saddle as the lead, instead of the foal (maybe swap positions) I know the foal is looking left, but the stallion is at least standing with his head turned and could be considered "looking" into the article if he were the lead image; he so much nicer an example of the breed.  I don't have real strong feelings, just think it's a more representative animal.  Thoughts?  21:24, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pics 

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