Talk:County town

message: Surely these county 'towns' you've listed are in fact known as CITIES!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.222.128.2 (talk • contribs) .
:Most of them ARE cities (but not all of them. Ipswich has failed numerous times to achieve City status), but the term is 'County Town' regardless of the actual status of the place.
:On a different subject, I was under the impression that Preston was the county town of Lancashire. Anyone confirm or deny? - Darac
::The council HQ is at Preston, and apparently moved there in 1974, at the time of the reorganisation of administrative counties. This raises the prospect that there may be "traditional" County Towns and current administrative HQs that do not correspond (see also Talk:Leicester). I can't find an authoritative list at the moment. --rbrwr
::Preston has been the headquarters of Lancashire County Council since the creation of the first county councils in the 19th century not since 1974.  Preston was probably chosen as it is more central than Lancaster. Penrithguy 11:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cities?

message: Here's a provisional list ordered by counties
Traditional Counties
* Bedfordshire - Bedford
* Berkshire - Reading (now no County Council)
* Buckinghamshire - Aylesbury
* Cambridgeshire - Cambridge
* Cheshire - Chester
* Cornwall - Bodmin, now Truro
* Cumberland - Carlisle (now part of Cumbria)
* Derbyshire - Derby, now Matlock
* Devon - Exeter
* Dorset - Dorchester
* County Durham - Durham
* Essex - Chelmsford
* Gloucestershire - Gloucester
* Hampshire - Winchester
* Herefordshire - Hereford (now a unitary)
* Hertfordshire - Hertford
* Huntingdonshire - Huntingdon (now no County Council)
* Kent - Maidstone
* Lancashire - Lancaster, now Preston
* Leicestershire - Leicester, now Glenfield
* Lincolnshire - Lincoln
* Middlesex - probably Brentford, may be Clerkenwell or Westminster (now part of Greater London)
* Norfolk - Norwich
* Northamptonshire - Northampton
* Northumberland - Alnwick, Newcastle upon Tyne, Morpeth
* Nottinghamshire - Nottingham (now extraterritorial)
* Oxfordshire - Oxford
* Rutland - Oakham
* Shropshire - Shrewsbury
* Somerset - Taunton
* Staffordshire - Stafford
* Suffolk - Ipswich
* Surrey - Guildford, but the County offices are currently extraterritorial at Kingston upon Thames
* Sussex - Chichester, (also Lewes)
** now East Sussex - Lewes
** and West Sussex - Chichester 
* Warwickshire - Warwick
* Westmorland - Appleby (now part of Cumbria)
* Wiltshire - Trowbridge (formerly Salisbury?)
* Worcestershire - Worcester
* Yorkshire
** North Riding (also North Yorkshire) - Northallerton
** East Riding - Beverley
** West Riding - Wakefield 
1974 counties (except metros)
* Avon - Bristol (now unitaries)
* Cumbria - Carlisle
* Isle of Wight - Newport
* Cleveland, England - Middlesbrough (now unitaries)
* Humberside - Beverley (or Kingston upon Hull?) (now unitaries)
Humberside's HQ was in Beverley, not Hull, according to my 1983 Whitaker's Almanac. A check on the W Sussex website puts County Hall in Chichester, not Worthing. --rbrwr
The situation with Middlesex is apparently this: the magistrates sat at Clerkenwell from the late middle ages until the 19th century. County elections were held at Brentford during the 18th and 19th century (1911 Brittannica calls it the "county-town for elections"). The County Council sat at Westminster from 1889 to 1965. There is no longer a council.
Not a registered user here, but anyway...  I contributed some of the stuff to this page originally, taking info from Bucks County Council's list of authorities, which needed updating.  There is a map available for free use at http://www.abcounties.co.uk/counties/map.htm (as long as you provide a link to their page) showing the pre-1974 traditional counties of the UK though not the towns associated with such.  but with the amount of historical societies out there I imagine it shouldn't be too difficult to find out the info about pre-1974 county towns.  I imagine that would be easier because since 1974 and especially since the reshuffle in the 1990's nobody seems to know exactly what a county is any more...
:Well, I've put the list up on the page, and the general public can pick it apart up there. --rbrwr 18:57, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: provisional list

message: Is the term "county town" used anywhere at all except the UK and Ireland? The article suggests it's more widespread but doesn't have any examples. Stan 20:18, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ireland/uk only? 

message: As these have no administrative functions themselves the old administrative HQs are no longer used for anything relating to them. Owain 09:28, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The way the text for the "Preserved counties of Wales" section is currently worded implies that the administrative HQ of a unitary authority is referred to as the "county town" of that authority. This is stretching the definition of county town beyond what is usually meany by the term. In many cases a unitary authority has council offices in multiple places "within" that authority so that there is no central HQ. I would suggest that the whole section is redundant. Owain 18:35, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do we need a list of the preserved counties of Wales? 

message: In Scotland counties only counties that share a name with their county town (or former county town) end in -shire. Examples are Perthshire or Kincardineshire. Counties such as Caithness or Argyll whose county towns have a different name from them should not have the -shire suffix. -- Derek Ross |  Talk 17:59, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)
::They don't have to have the suffix, but there is no reason why they can't have it - much in the same way as Devon or Dorset can be Devonshire or Dorsetshire. Owain 18:29, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Names of Scottish Counties

message: Surely if Glenfield is the CT of Leicestershire, West Bridgford should be the CT of Nottinghamshire?  --Cavrdg 18:32, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is clearly a nonsense though. That would be corrupting the phrase "county town" to be merely "the location of the administrative headquarters of a top-level administrative area", rather than all the other connotations it has, such as historical, geographical, cultural significances, &c. The county towns of Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire are Leicester and Nottingham respectively. Any definition that makes it any other way is clearly broken. Owain 18:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've had a go at rewording the introductory sentence to try and make it make more sense. Owain 10:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Leicestershire / Nottinghamshire

message: How about adding a section listing the "county towns" or adimistrative centres of the former metroplitan counties (1974 - 1986) and Greater London which was and is in some respects still classed as a county.  And expanding on that what about the unitary authorites that replaced the metropolitan county councils and later in the 1990s some district & county coucils surely have "County Towns" though I know most are not regarded as counties in their own right and many consist of a single town or city. Penrithguy 17:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metropolitan counties & Unitary Authorites 

message: I've slightly amended the introductory paragraphy to show that this article refers only to the UK and Ireland.  I've also added a note regarding the use of "parish seat" in Louisiana.  But I'm a bit surprised that no-one to date has written anything about the term "shire town"?  I'm not entirely sure how to define it myself, but it would be a useful addition. {{Silverhelm 00:46, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification on terminology 

message: Are Wakefield, Beverley and Northallerton definitely historical seats of the Quarter Sessions, etc? I was also surprised to discover the Lancashire administration has been based at Preston since 1882, if not before - County Hall at Preston definitely predates County Hall at Wakefield  Morwen - Talk 19:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I am unconvinced about the sentence in the intro regarding York itself - "contrary to popular belief"- eh?  The 1911 EB claims York is the county town of Yorkshire, it doesn't mention "county town" in the entries for Wakefield, Northallerton or Beverley Morwen - Talk 19:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yorkshire 

message: According to Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of England, Vol. III (1831):
*Lancaster was the "county town":
.the assizes and general quarter sessions for the county are also held in this town, which also, as being the county town, the election of knights of the shire takes place.
Lancaster Castle was apparently used by the Grand Jury.
*However at Preston:
The quarter sesions of the county, the meetings of the deputy lieutenents and other county meetings are held here; and from its central situation , the offices of the court of chancery, common pleas, and other courts of the duchy of Lancaster, unless when the officers attend the assizes at Lancaster, are also held at Preston....
..The sessions-house and house of correction is a capacious building, enclosed within a lofty boundary wall, including every requisite accomodation for the county sessions, the meeting of the county magistrates...''
In the Lancashire entry it states that the office of the court of chancery of the county palatine is at Preston, and that the court of annual general sessions is "holden at Preston on the Thursday next after the feast of St John the Baptist".
And elsewhere that the quarter sessions of the hundreds of Amounderness, Blackburn and Leyland are held at Preston.
So Preston obviously was the administrative HQ for at least part of the county. Perhaps we need to redefine "county town"?
Lozleader 20:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preston and Lancaster 

message: Also in Lewis: 
York was the county town, and was the site of the county assizes, the county gaol, and was the location for the election of kights for the shire.
the records of the West Riding sessions were at Wakefield, as was the gaol. Quarter sessions were held at various locations. The quarter sessions for the East Riding were held at Beverley, and the North Riding at North Allerton (sic), and the sessions records were also kept at those towns. It doesn't call them "county towns".
So it would seem a county can (could) only have one "county town", even if it is divided into ridings or divisions. 
Lozleader 20:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yorkshire in 1831

message: Well this article is a bit of a shambles, as county town seems to mean different things at different times (and to different people).
How about splitting into sections: 
#Historic counties (pre 1889) showing county towns i.e. places where the knights of the shire were elected, county assizes held, county gaol was etcetera: so just the one county town for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Suffolk, Sussex, Northamptonshire, Cambridgeshire..
#HQs of administartive counties 1889 -1974
#HQs of metropolitan counties 1974 - 1986, and of non-metropolitan counties to date.
Lozleader 21:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That makes sense to me.   We could have a big table up front for all the historic counties and only those, listing the county towns with notes for various changes such as Buckingham -> Aylesbury, followed by other tables for the county council headquarters (probably we can make do with 1 table for the administrative counties and the non-metropolitan counties both, since most of the entries would be the same).  Possibly indicate the seats of pre-1888 county division administrations somehow? Morwen - Talk 23:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganise? 

message: According to  the county town of Rads was Presteigne, but the county council set up shop in Llandrindod Wells.Lozleader 11:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radnorshire 

message: According to The Times of October 22nd 1889, a number of the county councils had not yet decided on the permanent location for holding their meetings. In the case of Surrey, the quarter sessions met at Newington, which had been placed in the County of London by the 1888 Act. Reigate, Kingston, Epsom "and indeed other places of less significance set up claims to be allowed to offer hospitality to to the County Council". Not sure when Kingston won out. Lozleader 08:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's interesting.  I wonder when they'd abandoned Guildford?  Morwen - Talk 09:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dunno. Apparently Newington was easier to get to. Lozleader 10:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. I wonder what % of the population of Surrey lived within the Metropolis.  Morwen - Talk 10:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the  1881 census about 68% of the population of the registration county were in Camberwell, Lambeth, St Olave, Southwark and Wandsworth Registration Districts (980,522 out of 1,441,576)Lozleader 23:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  says they moved circa 1791 - county gaol had previously been in Southwark.  Sessions house got taken over by London in 1889.   Morwen - Talk 06:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does that mean that Southwark was also the county town for some purposes? This is getting complicated! Lozleader 08:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh. According to Wikipedia County Hall was opened in 1893 County Hall (Surrey) Lozleader 13:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surrey 

message: How about adding East Kent/Canterbury and Liberty of St Albans/St Albans?  Maybe we just need a list of Quarter Sessions and areas.  Morwen - Talk 22:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other divisions

message: Just to make things more complicated again! Ilchester was apparently the ancient county town of Somerset. In 1831, according to Lewis, the knights for the shire were elected there, and the county gaol was also in the town. The assizes had formerly been held there, but had moved to Taunton, Wells and Bridgwater. Lozleader 09:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More notes! Morwen - Talk 09:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ilchester 

message: According to Trowbridge:
"In 1898 Wiltshire County Council first built offices in the town and as council services developed it expanded. In 1940 Wiltshire County Council opened County Hall and designated Trowbridge the county town of Wiltshire." No references given, though. Lozleader 10:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently Trowbridge was chosen as it was easy to get to by rail. Lozleader 10:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm.  Trowbridge is worder stronger than that extlink - "designated as county town" rather than "moved their headquarters there".  Given Trowbridge, I wonder if we can turn up any early/mid 20th century references to Preston being the county town of Lancashire.  Morwen - Talk 10:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Other random things at various points are  saying Bala and Dolgelly joint county towns of Merioneth.  saying Bodmin was county town although Truro was de facto,  noting Newborough was county town of Anglesey having been moved from Beaumaris. and  claims Radnor was the county town not Presteigne   Morwen - Talk 10:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trowbridge

message: This business is insanely complicated.  Is it fair to say that pre-1832, at least, the main test was location where Knights of the Shire were elected?  Perhaps we should have a list of pre-1832 county towns, and then go from there? john k 13:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From the contemporary texts, this seems to be the meaning. Later on it seems to have meant different things to different people. I'm surprised how many different places we're coming up with. I'll happily supply a list of the "election" county towns Lozleader 13:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That would probably be a good place to start, then we can add notes about comtemporary attitudes.  It does seem local usage varied a lot and there was no one consistent criteria later.  Are there any contemporary lists like this I wonder?  Morwen - Talk 14:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jeez 

message: This is a list of towns regarded as "county towns" for the election of knights for the shire in England in 1831:
*Bedfordshire:	Bedford
*Berkshire: nominated at Reading, elected at Abingdon
*Buckinghamshire: Buckingham
*Cambridgeshire: Cambridge?	
*Cheshire: Chester?	
*Cornwall: Bodmin??	
*Cumberland: Cockermouth
*Derbyshire: Derby
*Devon: Exeter
*Dorset: Dorchester
*Durham: Durham
*Essex: Chelmsford
*Gloucestershire: Gloucester
*Hampshire: Winchester
*Herefordshire: Hereford
*Hertfordshire: Hertford	
*Huntingdonshire: Huntingdon	
*Kent: Maidstone
*Lancashire: Lancaster	
*Leicestershire: Leicester
*Lincolnshire: Lincoln	
*Middlesex: New Brentford
*Monmouthshire: Monmouth	
*Norfolk: Norwich	
*Northamptonshire: Northampton
*Northumberland: Alnwick
*Nottinghamshire: Nottingham
*Oxfordshire: Oxford
*Rutland: Oakham
*Shropshire: Shrewsbury
*Somerset: Ilchester
*Staffordshire: Stafford	
*Suffolk: Ipswich
*Surrey: Guidford
*Sussex: Chichester
*Warwickshire: Warwick
*Westmorland: Appleby
*Wiltshire: Wilton (nominated at Devizes)
*Worcestershire: Worcester
*Yorkshire: York
Wales:
*Anglesey: Beaumaris
*Brecknockshire: Brecknock
*Cadiganshire: Cardigan
*Carmarthenshire: Llandeilo Fawr (until 1832), Carmarthen thereafter
*Carnarvonshire: Carnarvon
*Denbighshire: Denbigh
*Flintshire: Flint
*Glamorgan: Bridgend (until 1832)
*Merionethshire: Harlech
*Montgomeryshire: Montgomery or Machynlleth (depending on time of year)†
*Pembrokeshire: Haverfordwest
*Radnorshire: Usually Presteigne occassionally  New Radnor
Ireland:
*Antrim: Carrickfergus
*Armagh: Armagh
*Carlow: Carlow	
*Cavan: Cavan
*Clare: Ennis
*Cork: Cork
*Donegal: Lifford
*Down: Downpatrick
*Dublin: Kilmainhaim
*Fermanagh: Enniskillen
*Galway: Galway
*Kerry: Tralee
*Kildare: Athy and Naas (depending on time of year)†
*Kilkenny: Kilkenny
*King's County: Tullamore transferred from Philipstown by Act of parliament 1833
*Leitrim: Carrick-on-Shannon
*Limerick: Limerick
*Londonderry: Londonderry
*Longford: Longford
*Louth: Dundalk
*Mayo: Castlebar
*Meath: Trim
*Queen's County: Maryborough
*Roscommon: Roscommon
*Sligo: Sligo
*Tipperary: Clonmel
*Tyrone: Omagh
*Waterford: Waterford
*Westmeath: Mullingar
*Wexford: Wexford
*Wicklow: Wicklow
† Elections held at the town at which the next assizes will be held
:Eep eep eep. More suprises.  Cockermouth? Alnwick?  Morwen - Talk 22:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought Alnwick was the traditional seat of Northumberland.  Cockermouth is indeed a surprise. john k 01:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So did we get anywhere with this other than discovering the eel-like nature of county towns?  It would be neat if we could find some historical gazetteers actually defining county town as a general term rather than just giving examples of them, which we have no shortage of! Morwen - Talk 22:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Lewis says on a couple of occassions that elections are held at such and such a place because it is the county town... Lozleader 22:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Knights of the shire

message: The term county capital is in fairly general use in Ireland, examples (none official, mind you):
Tullamore , Navan , Dungarvan , Portlaoise , Cavan , Carlow ,
Newcastle West 
Lozleader 22:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: County capital versus county town

message: This article says that county town of County Meath is "Trim (Navan - de facto)". What does de facto mean in this context? Is there a source for this information? The Navan, Trim and County Meath articles all says that Navan is the county town, having once been Trim. Is this correct? -- Patleahy 19:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Navan is indeed the county town for administrative and legal purposes. The county council headquarters, the library service etc are all based there. However, Trim is considered the historical capital of the county. Previously it was the county town (and it still has the headquarters of the county court located there) but since the growth of Navan it became more prudent to relocate the capital there. There is, as is typical of many Irish towns, a competing claim between inhabitants of both towns. If you ask someone from Trim what the county town is, they are likely to respond with Trim. Ask someone from Navan the same question and they'll say Navan. As for the usage of the word de facto - AFAIK that can only be used if there is an official definition or answer somewhere. I'm not aware of any official status having been bestowed upon either town though. --MacTire02 (talk) 17:02, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  County Meath 

message: *"At this period [1714-1837], as for many years earlier, the government of the county was in the hands of the justices of the peace but, unlike most other counties, Berkshire had two, not one, county towns - Abingdon and Reading. The Assize Court and Quarter Sessions Courts met in both towns. The county gaol was at Reading but both had a house of correction (or brideswell) which was used for detaining offenders from various parts of the county as well as from the two towns." ()
--Redrose64 (talk) 20:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: more

message: Great research guys, but could I just point out that the article at Reading, Berkshire that Lozleader complained about in the first post of this thread still says that The town became the County Town (superseding Abingdon) in 1867, coupled with the fact tag that he put on back in March. I'm still trying to work out why he posted his original comment here rather than at Talk:Reading, Berkshire, but isn't the whole point of this discussion to improve this reference in that article?.
I guess I could try and plagiarise your research and cite one or more of the above references. But I think it would be much preferable if it came from the horses mouth. -- Starbois (talk) 17:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've now added a cite, basically by plagiarising the reference in this article. -- Starbois (talk) 10:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I think I took Reading, Berkshire off my watchlist as it was getting a lot of driveby graffiti/vandalism/unconstructive edits (as do lots of major settlement articles) which I wasn't interested in taking on. Forgot about the ref thing! Lozleader (talk) 10:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: and so

message: Is there any further description of the location in Southwark of the Surrey county administration? Looking at some maps I realised the boundary between the ancient borough of Southwark and the parish of Newington was Newington Causeway. Thus the site at Newington (now the Inner London Crown Court) fronted onto Southwark and might have been described as either "Southwark" or "Newington". The two places could be the same? MRSC (talk) 16:40, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I had assumed the location was one and the same, and that was the way I read the article's text. Anyway, I have located the single source for the Southwark assertion on archive.org . It turns out to be (as far as I can see) a rote-learning book for private tutors to children of the gentry. The assertion is on page 32 in a long list of towns of England... "Southwark, the county town of Surrey, united by a bridge with London, of which it is considered a suburb". Not much of a source and I would confidently say shorthand for Newington. Lozleader (talk) 12:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Amended Lozleader (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Surrey

message: A lot of these county towns are also listed as being county corporates prior to 1974. Surely the county seat wasn't set in a town that was no longer part of the county? I realize the county corporate page says that the counties corporate were effectively reintegrated into their old counties in 1882. But if that's the case then the "County towns prior to the late 19th century reforms" list here is only valid for 1882-1889. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.91.25.224 (talk) 17:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: County Corporates

message: These sections were less than satisfactory. Quite apart from the fact that a lot of dates and places were wrong (Gwynedd is still extant but was missing from the current list!) there was a definite muddle over some of the places that were county towns.
1) Montgomery was not county town of Montgomeryshire prior to 1885. From the time of the Glyndwr rebellion, the county administration had been based in the county's natural centre at Welshpool.
2) Beaumaris was the seat of Anglesey County Council until 1974. However, from 1900 some administrative functions were transferred to Llangefni due to its better transport links, and when Ynys Môn (please note, not Anglesey) was reconstituted as a county, the county town was placed there.
3) The same comments can be made of the Presteigne/Llandod controversy. Llandod was not the county town of Radnorshire until after it was absorbed into Powys, but due to its central location some administrative functions were based there (the BBC article is not entirely correct - BBC Wales in particular should be treated with caution, as it is under-resourced and struggles to attract/retain good staff other than for things like Dr Who, which are financed from London).
4) Aberaeron was never the county town of Cardiganshire. After 1885 the county council was based in Aberystwyth, and the assizes were held at Lampeter. Only after 1996 when the new county of Ceredigion was formed was the county council set at Aberaeron.
 
Have tidied up, reordered the dates and added the missing numbers. Have also added explanatory footnotes. Hope that's all clear.86.174.176.206 (talk) 13:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for most of the edits.  But to say that Usk is the administrative centre of Monmouthshire post-1996 is (largely if not wholly) untrue.  Until 2012, Monmouthshire was administered from the old Gwent County Hall at Croesyceiliog, Cwmbran - which was outside the Monmouthshire administrative area.  County Hall has now been closed and demolished, and since then Monmouthshire's administrative functions have been based at a business park outside Magor, Monmouthshire.   The new offices just outside Usk were opened earlier this year.  You could try to summarise all this in the relevant box if you like, or add it as a footnote.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:18, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

text: PS: Looking at this again, there are now clear inconsistencies in which authorities are listed.  For instance, the authority sometimes called Cardiff County Council is not included, but other unitary authorities like Monmouthshire County Council are included.  The earlier version may have been more consistent.  This needs to be reviewed and explained.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the problem with mixing up the meaning of "county town" with "administrative headquarters". The Gentleman's Magazine in 1806 stated that, "It is said that if elections [of Knights of the Shire] are held for 40 years in a particular town, it becomes the County Town". This has absolutely nothing to do with Quarter Sessions or County Councils, and even less to do with unitary authorities such as Cardiff County Council. A list of administrative headquarters of principal areas would be a useful list, but it really should not be muddled together with other lists on this page. Essentially we are looking at three lists: The list of de facto county towns prior to 1889; The list of administrative headquarters of county councils from 1889 and then a list of administrative headquarters of unitary authorities from the late 20th century onwards. The first definitely fits the definition of "county town", the second is more arguable, but the third definitely not. The minutiæ of local government administration is more suitable to the pages of the councils themselves, not here. Owain (talk) 08:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree in principle.  The article should be split, between the traditional county towns, and the centres of the later (post-C19) administrative areas - perhaps three as you suggest, though personally I think all the post-C19 areas can be covered in one article.  If they are all kept in one article, there is almost bound to be confusion.   I think we should raise this at WT:UKGEO.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wales 

message: Post-council merger, Co. Waterford seems to have two administrative centres, Waterford and Dungarvan.  Does that mean it also has two "county towns"?  This articles gives just Waterford.  The article list of urban areas in the Republic of Ireland by population just gives Dungarvan.  Neither is sourced.  Can we provide one?  See also this discussion.  79.97.71.180 (talk) 20:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the edit dispute at those pages has simply now moved here (and that sources have not).  Firstly, the removal of the "current or former" qualification seems gratuitous.  User:The Banner's very own edits on this subject depend crucially on there being some notion of "county town" that's different from "administrative centre".  Otherwise we wouldn't have the situation that Dublin -- not the administrative centre of any extant county at all -- is keyed as a "county town" at the above article, whereas Waterford, very clearly one of the administrative centres of Co. Waterford (and by all appearances now the principal one) is somehow not one.  Thus it seems inarguable to me that "county town" is sometimes used for former administrative centres, and the article itself makes the very same point, in contradiction to the amended opening sentence.  See also the Collins definition:  "county town (noun) the town in which a county's affairs are or were administered".  I'm restoring this, and adding a cite-needed tag for Waterford.  Granted it's no less sourced than the other counties, but the difference is they are at least not being actively contended and flipped around without provision of any source.  79.97.71.180 (talk) 15:32, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The main point is: "you think". You have no evidence that Waterford was or is the "county town". You have to prove it first. The Banner talk 16:30, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The main point is that we should source what the article says.  Your approach seems to be that someone else needs to source a detailed refutation of whatever claim you wish to add.  That's not how Wikipedia is supposed to work.  79.97.71.180 (talk) 00:37, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I add sources, you removed them with a ridicules claim. As long as you don't proof that Dungarvan is not the county town any more, you have to assume that the situation is not changed since the source I added was issued. You want to change it, so you have to prove it. The Banner talk 01:17, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

text: By the way, it is rather spectacular that you change the text to A county town is a county's current or former administrative centre in the United Kingdom or Ireland. and then refuse a source that at least proves Dungarvan was the county town up until the local elections in 2014 as being outdated. Sorry, but of your statement "current and former" is incorrect or the source is not outdated, but not both. The Banner talk 01:28, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Waterford's county town? 

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