Talk:Swastika/Archive 1

message: No mention of Carlsbergs Use of the Swastika?
Apart from that I've got to say this is a particularly good article!  Well done!
As far as the swastika is concerned I suspect that this was already used by the earlier Indians or the Pre-Aryans of India.I suspect that this may have been used by the Harrappa and MohenjoDaro civilization of the Indus valley.This was the first and earliest known civilzation of India.Unfortunatley they did not leave much written record to say who they were but the archaelogical excavations have proved this.But the marketing later civilisation likes to take credit for swastika.
:Carlsberg and Harappa? You may want to give us some reference as to what you mean. I don't know who 'claims credit' for the swastika: it's too ancient to tell, certainly neolithic, if not older. dab (ᛏ) 13:44, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Carlsberg brewery used the swastika as its registered trademark 1881-1938: see the image at http://www.wongoz.com/images/tr-copenhagen-carlsbergbottles.jpg -- Picapica 09:00, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Carlsberg, Proably the best Swastikas in the World

message: this article is nicely written so i dont want to insert this randomly
and mess up the flow
but some nice discussion might be about how in 'mein kampf' hitler
goes on for pages about why he likes red black and white, and how
he theorizes about its propaganda value, from a sort of perverted 
marketing perspective, and how little he thinks of the 'masses'
that he is leading, ie he feels that he can easily suade them to anything
with certain symbols and colors because he feels they are stupid.
odd thing that chapter. 
the other thing about the swastika is that there is this guy named 'manwoman' who has swastikas tatooed all over his body. he currently resides in cranbrook, british columbia, canada.
---
In Christianity, it has been used as an alternative to the traditional cross. It also symbolizes the pain of Christ on the cross. Statements of 'meanings' of symbols always need a reference showing to whom that symbol was meaningful in that particular way. Especially oddball remarks about the 'meanings' of contentious symbols, eh? Notice the use of the passive voice: Legend has it that... etc etc Wetman 04:23, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Ranting Hitler likes Colours;

message: The three- legged badge of the Isle of Man, which is believed to share its roots with the swastika. I removed this. This image is also the ancient symbol of Sicily, the Trinacria or Triskelion. Sicily was occupied by Celtic tribes of Siceli and Sicani before the Carthaginians even arrived. Solar disk with three running legs. Later with a gorgon's head. Very interesting. But how can anyone connect this with a swastika? Wetman 02:32, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's not as far fetched as it may seem at first glance. Spinning motifs are found in various cultures on various continents. That isn't to say that all such motifs have a common origin; it probably has something to do with human perception -- motifs with rotational and folding symmetry seem static, while ones with rotational symmetry only seem to turn. Anyway, I've seen at least one catalog of swastika-like motifs -- I'll see what I can find at the library next time I'm there. At the very least it seems appropriate to list some other swastika-like motifs, without going into speculations. Regards, Wile E. Heresiarch 05:43, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Those Isle of Manians and Sicilians, what'll they think of next?!

message: Hello. An anonymous editor added a statement  to the effect that the swastika was used as a substitute cross by early Christians. I can't find any substantiation for this, aside from several web pages (themselves unsubstantiated) which make the same assertion. The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia  says the swastika perhaps owes its not infrequent adoption by Christians to its resemblance to the cross; at least this resemblance may have made the adoption easier.... If someone has something to back up the assertion that the swastika was specifically used as a crux dissimulata, then go ahead and restore the text, with a suitable reference. For what it's worth, Wile E. Heresiarch 19:42, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of swastika in early Christianity 

message: The claim is made in swastika that the swastika was used as a heraldic device called a fylfot. No specific references are given to substantiate that claim. It is true that many web pages make the same claim, but none of them have any substantiation either. In the entry in OED on fylfot (quoted at ) there is only one instance of "fylfot" before the 19th c. -- The sole authority on which this word has been accepted by modern antiquaries as the name of the mark in question is the passage from the Lansdowne MS. quoted below. Consider also what Merriam-Webster has to say  -- Etymology: Middle English, device used to fill the lower part of a painted glass window (from a conjectural manuscript reading). Given that there's no evidence for fylfot as a common term for a swastika figure, I suggest we strike out the stuff about "fylfot", or (perhaps) replace it with a discussion of how there's no substantiation for claiming fylfot == swastika. I don't mean to claim that a swastika was never used in heraldry, but if it was, it was called something other than "fylfot". Wile E. Heresiarch 15:29, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed references to "fylfot" from swastika, since the term "fylfot" as a synonym for swastika has not been substantiated. It could be useful to put in a disclaimer of the form "it has been suggested that fylfot == swastika, but there's no evidence for that" to forestall the reappearance of the removed text. Wile E. Heresiarch 16:27, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  A note a long time after the fact (10 Septmber 2004) to say that I restored "fylfot" on the grounds that - however shakey the pedigree - it is a term that is nowadays used to describe a swastika. But with a note to the effect that it may be spurious. --81.144.220.5 17:07, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fylfot -- conjectural 

message: Hello. At present the article has this etymology: Sanskrit "good luck" or "well-being", literally "blessed form". I guess I am a little confused by this. There are a variety of etymologies stated in web pages, which, I'm guessing, are not reliable. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary  states Skt svastika, from svasti well-being, from su- well + as- to be; akin to Sanskrit asti he is, Old English is; from its being regarded as a good luck symbol. Britannica Online  says The word is derived from the Sanskrit svastika, meaning ?conducive to well-being.?. These two suggest that "well-being" is a literal meaning, and "good luck" and "auspicious form" are figurative meanings. That's pretty much the same as the statements above by User:LordSuryaofShropshire although not quite the same. Would someone like to comment on the differences? Given the controversies surrounding the swastika, it seems useful to seek an etymology from an authoritative source (and to cite the source in the article). A well-regarded English-Sanskrit dictionary would be appropriate, for example. Thanks for any information, Wile E. Heresiarch 14:14, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: the etymology given may still be improved. The word is morphologically segmentet su-as-ti-ka. "su" is correctly explained as cognate to "eu-", meaning "well-". "asti" is "being", the verbal root is "as", cognate to English "is". the "ti" forms a verbal abstract. it is not related to the personal ending in asti "he is". So, svasti- means "well-being". the -ka is a diminutive suffix. I.e. the entire word means "little well-being", or "little thing associated with well-being". "blessed form" is therefore not a literal translation. The sign is only one among several meanings og the word, see Monier-Williams. dab 12:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: Under "meanings" the idea that the left-facing Swastika is different from the Sauvastika is played down significantly. In Encyclopaedia Britannica, it says the following: "A clear distinction is made between the right-hand swastika, (…) and the left-hand swastika (more correctly called the sauvastika), which moves in a counterclockwise direction. The right-hand swastika is considered a solar symbol and imitates in the rotation of its arms the course taken daily by the Sun. (…) The left-hand swastika more often stands for night, the terrifying goddess Kālī, and magical practices." Who is right? Is EB only keeping the falsehood alive? In that case, this would be a case for the Wikipedia is better than EB page :-). — David Remahl 00:26, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: sauvastika is a regular sanskrit "vrddhi" formation, meaning "related to the svastika". Monier-Williams gives a meaning "benedictive, salutatory" for the word sauvastika. If it was ever used for Kali etc., we would need to clearly state when, where and by whom. dab 10:09, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: the sauwastika paragraph is getting out of hand. We need a separate Sauwastika article, and only link to that from here. dab 20:45, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You beat me to it! --Ant 00:43, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swastika vs sauwastika 

message: http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199596/cmhansrd/vo960612/debtext/60612-41.htm search down to 273.  There is/was an issue about this not being granted because they used a fylfot copied off a local temple that resembled the Swastika. http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/h273.html Dunc|☺ 12:03, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[273 Squadron RAF]] 

message: Can somebody do something about the horribly hearsay (no sources or specifications) "Indo-European" section? If not, I'll just remove it. dab 10:11, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your recent edit removing "Early Indo-European traditions". We can restore the text when someone finds substantial citations for these statements. Wile E. Heresiarch 19:19, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Indo-European

message: I removed the parts that don't directly concern the swastika, and npoved the remaining phrasings somewhat, but that doesn't imply my endorsement of what is left behind; somebody else should look it over, too. dab (T)   16:13, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: removed some more bits either not dealing with the swastika directly, or proposing misleading etymology. Probably the whole Mahabharata reference should go, as the connection bird-comet-swastika is etremely tenuous, and hardly substantiated in that text (bird-comet maybe more than bird-swastika, but this should go to an article on ancient comet observations). dab (T) 10:07, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Comets

message: The swastika is also a mnemonic device for remembering the actual name of the "National Socialist German Workers' Party" because the swastika resembles two overlapping "S" letters and "S" is the first letter in the word "socialism."  New graphic evidence suggests that the swastika came to have that meaning and representation. 
The discovery answers the long-standing question of why the swastika was used by the National Socialist German Workers'  Party as its symbol.  
Although the swastika was an ancient symbol, one of the reasons that it was chosen and/or maintained by the National Socialist German Workers' Party is because it resembles the "sig rune" (a letter of an ancient Germanic alphabet shown below) which was used as a letter "S."
The double sig rune was also used side-by-side as a symbol of the "SS" division of the National Socialist German Workers' Party and for other words beginning with the letter "S" (see graphic illustrations).  The swastika is also a double sig rune, but it is overlapping and not side-by-side. 
An internet image search for "double sig rune" or "sig rune" or "sieg rune" or "sowilo" provides more examples. 
It started in 1919, when Hitler joined the German Workers' Party, a socialist group.  The group sought a new name that would attract socialists in other groups.  Other German socialist groups used terms like ?National? and ?Socialist? in their titles, and the German Workers' Party adopted ?National Socialist German Workers? Party.? 
The swastika was chosen with the same goal as the new name, to symbolize socialists joining together as the National Socialist German Workers' Party with the intertwined letter ?S? shapes for ?Socialism? unified, or "Socialist Solidarity" or "Socialist Struggle" for "Socialist Victory" (Sieg Socialistiche) for the "Socialist Swastika."
A fan writes "....the sieg rune is an ancient symbol of victory that Hitler stole from scandinavian mythology to symbolize the victory of the NSDAP  (the National Socialistiche Deutsche Arbeiter Partei ). The word 'Sieg' literally means 'victory' in German. (or segerruna as it's called in Swedish)."  
And the sieg rune also corresponds with the  letter 's' in the ancient alphabet.  That provides more support for the swastika as overlapping "S" letters for "Sieg Socialistiche" (Socialist Victory).
The choice is still clouded in mystery because about the only thing Hitler ever said concerning the swastika was in 1920, when he decided that the National Socialist German Workers' Party needed its own insignia. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495).  On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the horrid party. In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)   
The red color and the "social idea of the movement" ties into socialism for which Hitler claimed he was struggling for victory.
1. The socialist swastika's arms reach clockwise. Before modern times the most common representation of swastikas was with arms that reached counter-clockwise.  The reason that the National Socialist German Workers' Party turned their swastika's arms to reach clockwise was to highlight the letter ?S? shape for ?socialism.?
2. The Socialist Swastika is turned 45 degrees to the horizontal.  The reason that the National Socialist German Workers' Party turned their swastika 45 degrees to the horizontal was to highlight the letter ?S? shape.
The "S is for Socialism" symbol is a mnemonic device today because a hackneyed abbreviation for "National Socialist German Workers' Party" is used exclusively by media and government schools so that most people who use the abbreviation do not know what the abbreviation abbreviates (National Socialist German Workers' Party). 
The images shown at [link removed]) are photos or representations of actual banners and flags used by the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Two of the flags show the name "National Socialist German Workers' Party" or "National Socialist" incircling or surrounding the swastika. Both swastikas have been turned or face the right to accentuate the "S" shape (turned by the National Socialist German Workers' Party).   One of the banners includes an additional word that begins with the letter "S," (Sturmabteilung).
Another banner shows how the National Socialist German Workers' Party used other stylized "S" letters, similar to the stylizing of the swastika. In the banner the swastika itself is overlayed with two additional "S" letters in the common lightning-bolt style of the runes.  
Another banner shows a single letter "S" in the lightning-bolt style of the runes, sometimes used for youth organizations.
There is a pennant with heavily stylized "SA" letters, deliberately designed to evoke the overlapping letter "S" shapes of the swastika.
The swastika was used with different meanings long before the National Socialist German Workers' Party.  As an even earlier symbol in Sanskrit, the swastika means "good luck," literally "it is good" (Sanskrit is the oldest extant Indo-Aryan language retained in India) and that fit the National Socialist view of merging all socialist groups into one large organization.  
In ancient times, the symbol might have also represented the sun or a wheel, thus giving rise to the modern terms "socialist sun" and "wheel of socialism" and the "circle of socialism" for the swastika of socialism. 
[ User:66.234.65.212 ]
: I've split this comment as there are two issues that shouldn't be conflated; the second point is below. 
: I've got to take issue with your comment above that "Before modern times the most common representation of swastikas was with arms that reached counter-clockwise." This is simply not true! The article itself makes this clear: the right-facing (clockwise) swastika is the more common throughout history. And it's certainly not just the Nazis that used it in this orientation in modern times: see, for example, "Johnny" Walker's page . All but one of the images - the Excelsior medallion, the good-luck card, the Coca-Cola medallion, the spine of Kim, the Scout "thanks" badge, the card sent by Baden-Powell - show the right-facing swastika.
: It does seem to be the case that the Nazi's originated the 45° orientation - but even that they didn't use consistently.
: This could be because of the crossed sigel/sol runes. Certainly the graphic resonance is highly suggestive... but it is not compelling! In fact, one of the flags you cite about argues against this thesis: if the swastika itself comprises two S's, why overlay two additional S's?
: It occurs to me that Hitler would have had no reason not to mention this idea if it had been in his mind: why not allude to the hoped-for socialist victory as well as the ostensible Aryan supremacy?    If that idea had been in his mind, could his ego not have mentioned it?   
: In short, this is simply an ill-informed diatribe.
:--Ant 23:46, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swastika as mnemonic device 

message: removed part saying Hitler as a child could see a swastika from his bedroom. No reference, sounds like a hoax. I could find 
:Hitler took the symbol, which is believed to have been part of the carvings in the Catholic Church he attended in Linz
which is somehow more credible, but I'd still like to know who 'believes' that. Not that it's terribly relevant anyway, of course. dab (ᛏ) 09:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler's bedroom

message: :If one looks closely at the ceiling of the famous Hofbrauhaus ( http://www.hofbraeuhaus.de/ )in Munich, swastikas can still be clearly seen. They appear as four blue and white Bavarian flags, as if waving in the breeze emanating from a central point, each flag folded over in the middle to make the 90 degree angle.
I fear this goes a bit far in a Rorschach inkblot test direction (if we mention individual swastikas, they should at least have some notability). If this case is notable, well, sorry, put it back, then. dab (ᛏ) 19:01, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: cut anon addition

message: who wrote "it was first mentioned in the Vedas"? Meaning the svastika? I am afraid it is only mentioned in the epos (Ramayana). The word does not exist in Vedic Sanskrit, see . dab (ᛏ) 13:49, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Veda??

message: I corrected the Sanskrit character order. The Unicode standard 4.0.0, section 9.1 says: "In a text sequence, these [Devanagari] characters are stored in logical (phonetic) order." So, I should be entered after TA, not before.
T42 00:45, 2005 Jan 23 (UTC)
=== The Sanskrit Spelling of Swastik is wrong!!! ===
Can any body correct the Sanskrit spelling, it reads "Swastakey"
the "e-kar" should be on "ta" not "ka".
:did you not note the preceding comment? I think your browser renders the correct encoding incorrectly. We don't need the Devanagari spelling, though, because we have the correct, equivalent Sanskrit transliteration, svastika. I opt for removing the devanagari altogether, because half of the browsers don't render it correctly, and people keep changing it to and fro. dab (ᛏ) 14:44, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: the devanagari is a read herring. As you can read on Sanskrit there is no particular historical association of Sanskrit with Devanagari. We could just as well spell the word in a dozen other scripts. It does not add any information: it is completely equivalent to svastika. Don't create an image, just remove it. dab (ᛏ) 15:28, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sanskrit character order

message: Can any body correct the Sanskrit spelling, it reads "Swastakey"
the "e-kar" should be on "ta" not "ka".
:did you not note the preceding comment? I think your browser renders the correct encoding incorrectly. We don't need the Devanagari spelling, though, because we have the correct, equivalent Sanskrit transliteration, svastika. I opt for removing the devanagari altogether, because half of the browsers don't render it correctly, and people keep changing it to and fro. dab (ᛏ) 14:44, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Sanskrit Spelling of Swastik is wrong!!! 

message: I say that, since there are display problems with Devanagari even for modern browsers, someone whose computer can display it correctly should take a screenshot of it, crop it, upload it as a .png image, and stick in on this page so we can all see it.  Then we won't need the Devanagari encoding (though it should be replaced as soon as browsers start to commonly support it). Chamaeleon 15:00, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: the devanagari is a read herring. As you can read on Sanskrit there is no particular historical association of Sanskrit with Devanagari. We could just as well spell the word in a dozen other scripts. It does not add any information: it is completely equivalent to svastika. Don't create an image, just remove it. dab (ᛏ) 15:28, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: My vote

message: P.S.: I guess once the splitting into three parts is done, it would be much easier to pass the swastika topic as a Wikipedia Featured Article of good community work. 
If you keep the stuff in one lump, it will always be controversial and never gets approved. —  12:04, 17 Feb 2005 User:195.70.48.242
:I respectfully disagree. The different connotations of the symbol are tied up inseparably, and must be explained in relation to one another. The article does not seem to be controversial at the moment. The talk page has been quiet for a while, at any rate, and I do think the article has consolidated. We need to clean up the 'origins' section a bit, possibly, but apart from that I'm quite happy with it. dab (ᛏ) 14:35, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia F-A-C 

message: Hello. I wonder if we might expand the reference to the Sanskrit epics. At present we have The word first appears in the Classical Sanskrit (in the Ramayana and Mahabharata epics). Do we want to cite chapter and verse here? (Does "swastika" appear just once or twice, or lots of times?) Also, does "swastika" have the same meaning in the epics as it does in contemporary Hinduism, or has that changed over time? Dunno if we really want to go into more detail here, but it seems worth it to bring it up. Regards & happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 17:13, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I had collected the actual occurrences at sa:, but it was deleted. Can't be bothered to collect it again. It was something like a dozen occurrences. I thinks it means "lucky charm" more generally, there and does not necessarily refer to the crooked cross. regards, dab (ᛏ) 17:28, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, that's interesting, thanks for the info. Can we say something about when the word "swastika" was first associated with the figure now called the swastika? best, Wile E. Heresiarch 18:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ramayana and Mahabharata epics 

message: we really have to decide on some guidelines as to which images are notable. There are simply too many images of swastikas floating around to pile them all up here. Some were removed now, I supposed the punk image, and also the cuba image were not absolutely necessary.  but which are? the ruble-note should go, imho, the swastika is not even visible in the thumbnail. also, the desecrated cemetary is certainly necessary in the 20th century section, but now the raelian logo is the only image presented beside it. surely the raelians are not notable enough to warrant that? I'd just like to hear a few opinions on where we should go from here. dab (ᛏ) 08:46, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi.  Firstly, you may not have realised, but this article is currently up for FA status (see top of page).  Secondly, I agree with you about the images.  It certainly was a mess when I first came across it.  I'll remove the picture of the note, as it's not really either illustrative or even good.  In addition, I don't think the issue of the Raelians' notability is actually important.  The image is excellent, and highly illustrative of the effect that the Nazi use has had.  I guess we could introduce that photo of the front page of the Sun on Prince Harry's page... What do you reckon? Smoddy (tgeck) 09:21, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: whoops, I thought that was still the old nomination banner hanging around. I don't see how the Raelian logo is supposed to illustrate anything about the Nazis, though, and no, I definitely object to Harry's image (is it even fair use?) -- that's perfectly non-notable, and will be forgotten in a year or two. dab (ᛏ) 08:21, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm suggesting that it illustrates the effect that the Nazis had on the perception of the swastika, in that they were forced to alter it.  Smoddy (tgeck) 09:58, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: images