Talk:Soviet occupation of Romania/Archive 1

message: To summarize my point, and help clear some misunderstandings about it:
*as I have said, 1944 to 194something is indicated by most historians as an occupation, though this may not comply with actual official status. Nobody could extend that to 1957, unless to stress a point (if you will, to call a spade a spade, to define it as a duck etc. - "despite conventions, it amounted to that"). That point can and should be rendered throughout the article: I see no reason why it should also be in the title (in itself, the title ought to be as close to neutral as possible).
*the presence of an Allied Commission is not in itself proof of occupation. Austria was occupied because it was administrated by the Allies (the four zones mentioned and the direct comparison to Germany, both of which do not apply here). As mentioned previously, Finland too had an Allied Commission, and it had no foreign presence whatsoever.
*citing instances of abuse will not make it officially an occupation, but, at most, effectively an occupation. For one, we all know that Stalin didn't give a damn about official status, and allowed himself to break it as a rule (a point which can and ultimately should be present in the article). Secondly, the tradition of abuse (deportations, etc., as well as, probably, the rejection of the Marshall Plan, were the result of abusive influence and cooperation with various forces on the inside, not that of military law). Thirdly, the fact that the Romanian government did have the power to protest indicates further that there was a national authority who could at least try to oppose this abuse, and had vehicles to report it as an abuse.
*such points are almost perfectly equatable with the previous German presence (economic control, advisory bodies, submission of the Romanian army to a centralized command), which one would have to stretch exactly as much in legal terms to call "an occupation".
Again, I believe the article should adopt the de jure (and the post-1953 de facto), whereas the body of text can detail the 1944-1953 de facto. Since I last replied here, I notice that some absurd speculations about the Comintern, the Hungarian Revolution etc. were also made on this page, and I thank established users for seeing through them. Hopefully, we are not using wikipedia to endorse speculation, projection, and personal theories. 
To answer the point about the Marshall Plan: whatever influence might have arguably been exercised by the Soviets, the fact is that it was rejected through an official act of government (it's telling that the minister who signed that act was not a Communist). Dahn 14:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Dahn.  Thanks for the explanations, and the cogent summary.  I gotta run now, but let me mull this over, and I will get back to this.  In the meantime, just a point of information, if I may:  who was the minister who signed that act?  I searched last night on wikipedia (not very thoroughly, I must admit), and could not find any further information on this besides what I wrote above.  Somewhat independently of this discussion, but still in a related vein, I think we need a better framework to explain the economic situation in Romania following WWII, including the rejection of the Marshall Plan, the adherence to Comecon, what role the war reparations and the SovRoms played in the overall economy, etc.  In other words, more of an integration of historical aspects with economic aspects -- one reinforcing the other in explaining things.  Have such studies been done? A big name in this approach to history is Niall Ferguson, but alas, as far as I know, he has not treated the subject of Romania in any deatil...  Turgidson 14:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For your first question: Tătărescu. About the rest: I have at home an entire issue of Dosarele Istoriei dealing with the issue, and Cioroianu has a chapter about it. This may lead us somewhere, but I'm all tangled up in issues right now (both wiki-related and real life). I request your permission to introduce more profuse citations from Tismăneanu to your text in the future (I have the entire book in Romanian, and could replace or alternate references to provide more data from that book as well). I would also like to propose creating a separate section for "in popular culture", and move the davai ceas issue over there (together with other facts one can fish out from here and there, all of which are likely to be interesting). Dahn 14:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary by [[User:Dahn]] 

message: : I am not sure where to add my input since the discussion diverged so much in so many sections. Though I am not an expert in these events nor particularly interested in them, since my small contributions to the history of Communist Romania here in Wikipedia I confronted such topics. One of the materials I've read is an issue of Dosarele Istoriei - 12(88)/2003 and it's a about of series of articles signed by Teofil Oroian, pp. 22-45. Their titles in English (not translated, but proposed by their author) are: "Prolonged and Defying Stationing of Soviet Troops in Romania", "Soviet Counsellors in the Romanian Army. A brief historical perspective", "War Doctrine, Fighting Methods and Procedures of Soviet Inspiration", "Glorifying Stalin and the Soviet Army".
: What these articles say about "Soviet occupation of Romania". First it denounced the abusive installation of Soviet military units. In November 1944, ordered by marshall R. I. Malinovsky, 3 Soviet infantry divisions occupied Romania. One near Ploieşti, one near Bucharest, and another one having regiments in Petroşani, Deva and Arad. The terms of occupations (purpose, duration) were not given at that time. The Romanian side through the generals N. Rădescu and C. Sănătescu expressed concerns about the stationing of Soviet military units as article 3 from the Convention of Armistice stipulated only allowance and support for Soviet and Allies military forces in passage through Romanian territory if the military situation demanded that way, not hosting them for unlimited time and unknown purposes. The threatening answer came from general V. P. Vinogradov in December same year, invoking the same article and claiming the Soviet army could take any measure they thought necessary in the terms of that article. The end of WWII ended the de jure possibilities for Soviet units to remain on Romanian territories. However, in June 1945, the Soviets asked for more areas where Soviet units to stationate grouped in four areas each one of them encompassing several cities. Again, the terms of occupation were not specified just an ultimatum for Romanian units to leave those areas. With all these, further abuses were recorded: the Soviet units stationed in other places than stipulated, the Romanian units from other areas than stipulated were evacuated (and also related facilities - barracks, hospitals, etc.), plus many other abuses (damages, theft, etc.). Oroian  estimates from the average food supply that a Soviet army of about 500,000 stayed in Romania until 1947. 
: Secondly, after the Peace Treaty from February 10 / September 15 1947, in article 21, Romania's situation was stipulated as such: "all Allied troops will be retreated in 90 days, except USSR, which can keep in Romanian territory the armed forces it considers necessary to maintain the Communication lines with Austria". Oroian concludes: "thus the presence of Soviet military troops was legalized in Romania, and the status of occupied country for Romania became not only de facto, but also de jure". He also adds this was a pretext, as between USSR and Austria, there were 3 communcation lines: Lwów-Kraków-Vienna having 630km and a capacity of 60 trains/day, Stryj-Mukacheve-Budapest-Vienna, 680km, 14 trains/day and finally Ungheni-Paşcani-Adjud-Oradea-Budapest-Vienna, 1350km and 7 trains/day. He does not estimate the number of remaning Soviet troops after 1947 invoking the lack of documents. He concludes "The Soviet troops remaining in Romania after the signing of the Peace Treaty, will stay here for more than 10 years, continuing to alter deeply the Romanian society in all aspects ("continuând să marcheze profund societatea românească în ansamblul ei"). Divided in 14 garrisons, they were retreated only in 1958, after a Romanian-Soviet agreement, ending the trauma of the Soviet military occupation of Romania.". This is the end of the first article. The next article, on Soviet counsellors, starts with "The occupation of Romania and other states from Eastern, Central and South-Eastern Europe by Red Army was the decissive factor in installing the Soviet domination East of Iron Curtain and forceful installation of the Communist regimes. In this context, one of the objectives of the new Stalinist-obedient governments was the cleansing of the important institutions of the state, mainly the army, and afterwards their recreation after the Soviet model. For the efficient development of such actions, on military issues, Soviet military counsellors were sent. However, they had leading, control and surveillance roles in the main institutions and bodies of the state, but even in the economical units of average importance."
: I'm giving these accounts of Oroian to point out not that only "occupation" is a term used (as it was already exemplified), but also I find the context wide enough to believe the term "occupation" can be legitimately used here with no fear of OR, while we are backed up by these (reliable, I guess) sources.
: And last but not at least, I believe the term "military presence" is somehow POV-ishly vague. This military presence it seems to have a purpose to control and change Romania in the interests of USSR. When someone says "presence", some people may think of it as something very neutral and passive. The term "occupation" reveals a purpose of that "presence". As long there's scholarship to evidentiate and argue for such purposes, I don't see where is the problem really. Daizus 12:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This looks like very valuable information.  We now have a section on Soviet occupation forces in Romania, that includes estimated troop strenths; for now, it's just for 1945-1952, since these are the data I could find so far (in Verona's book, which is widely available in libraries in the US).  I think it would be great to have details about location, communication lines, etc, like the ones you found about (plus, of course, context).  I plan to add more info from Verona's book as time permits (btw, tables would be better, but I haven't used them yet in wiki mode, just plain html), but having another source (like Dosarele Istoriei), one complementing and reinforcing the other, would be really good. Turgidson 14:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments from [[User:Daizus]] 

message: It is important to determine the time scope for this article. There are several periods to consider, each of which presents different conditions. First period is the Battle of Romania (1944), when Romania was on the Axis side and Red Army has entered Romanian territory. There can be no doubt that as Romania was acting as Soviet enemy, Soviet forces were occupying Romanian territory they took. Then we have a period following King's Michael's coup (which seems to have no article, as far as I can tell, and is only described in passing in related articles like Michael_I_of_Romania#Turning_against_Nazi_Germany, Romania_during_World_War_II#The_royal_coup), where Romania switched to the Allies side. Although Romania was now Soviet ally, Soviets were obviously edgy with their yesterday's enemy, and Soviet troops entered Romanian territory, from many records acting as if they were on conquered enemy's territory. On December 1947, the time of official Communist Romania begins. In 1958, Soviet troops withdrew from Romania, which would remain part of the Soviet block until 1989. I don't think that the period of 1947 to 1958 can be described as occupation, anymore then Poland (where Soviet troops did not leave until 1993, IIRC): once the Soviet had their puppet government, I don't think they needed their own troops do do any 'occupying', they remained there as guarentee that status quo doesn't change (out of curisity, why did they leave in 1958?). So the only real controversy is whether this article should cover the time from royal coup in mid-1944 till Dec 1947. That should be answered by citing reliable sources per WP:V and WP:RS: when Soviet troops in Romania are mentioned in this period, are they mentioned as 'occupying' force or not? Lastly, the current article doesn't seem to be actually describing much; consider either merging this article into one of History of Romania subarticles, or renaming it into Soviet troops in Romania and describing that subject.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, "Occupation" did happen, so the article topic is valid and it may be expanded. The term "Allied occupation" referred to other occupations as well. And of course, occupation ends with establishment the power from occupation administration to established government, be it puppet or not. Of course, the remaining presence of foreign troops is usually called informally "occupation", but Piotrus is correct to refer to them as  Soviet troops in Romania, unless there was a official term, similar to Group of Soviet Forces in Germany. BTW, what about  Soviet troops in Poland, Piotrus? Mukadderat 03:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What about them? I created a small stub based on pl wiki. For good or wose, I tried to avoid usage of any POVed terms :) PS. The Polish wiki article on :pl:Północna Grupa Wojsk (Northern Army Group) notes that Soviet forces in Romania and Bulgaria were called Southern Army Group; there was also German occupation Army Group and Central Army Group (Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia). Note that the English title is my translation, I'll see if I can verify that was indeed the term used for those formations. PS2. Here you go: Southern Group of Forces, Group of Soviet Forces in Germany. So we still need Northern Group of Forces (I'll translate it from pl wiki soon) and Central Group of Forces.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  04:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text:  Please allow for a bit of time to develop the article.  Only two days ago, it looked like this, and most time and energy since then has been spent discussing things on this talk page, only relatively little on expanding the article.  But once things hopefully cool off a bit (although a lot of the discussion has been very instructive, some has been, let's just say, a bit less than pleasant), I expect the article will take  better shape.  Why did the Soviets leave in 1958?  Well, Khruschev just decided to up and go -- something to do with Yugoslavia, it's being said, but who really knows, maybe he just figured the job was done, so time to bring the boys back home? Will add the story soon, it's well documented.   Name for the article?  There's a big debate raging about that, it will take a while before we reach a working consensus, my hunch is.  Thanks for the suggestion, it has merit.  I personally prefer the title as it is, for several reasons, one of them being it's the most commonly used, both in the historical literature, in common parlance, and on the internet (see the Google hits count above).  By the way, one of the few books that deals exclusively with the subject at hand is titled "Military Occupation and Diplomacy: Soviet Troops in Romania, 1944-1958" -- both the title you propose and the existing one can be extracted from this! (The only other book that I could find that deals specifically with the subject is called "The Red Army in Romania", which has also its merits, perhaps?) Turgidson 03:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  One reason I am not very happy with the occupation title is that is is quite broad. A good part of my unease with the title is a situation at Occupation of Poland (1939-1945), where the article was moved to that title from Treatment of Polish citizens by the occupants, and I am not sure if with the new name it is not destined to be a well meaning but still content fork of History of Poland (1939-1945). What can this (Romanian) article describe that would not fit into history of Romania series? If your goal is to illustrate the presence of Soviet troops in Romania, than I'd suggest stating this in the title. Occupation implies you will write about Soviet occupational government (was there such an entity?), economy of the occupied lands, people living there, and such - which sounds to me like fork of history of... article. Again, as far as I see it, 'Soviet occupation of Romania' would make a good section title in the history of Romania series, but I just don't see it as a stand-alone article (I do see a stand alone article on Soviet troops in Romania, separate from South Army Group, though - both of which are notable topics).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  04:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You'll need an answer from more experienced users than I on that (I have not worked on History of Romania).  But, at first glance, there is no way all the planned material for this article could fit in the "mother article" you mention.  Right now, pretty much all is said in History of Romania about this topic is one sentence:  "Soviet occupation following World War II led to the formation of a communist Peoples' Republic in 1947 and the abdication of king Michael, who went into exile", after which the article simply jumps to the early 1960s!  I agree, there should be at least a few more lines in between 1947 and 1960-65 -- if nothing else, mention of the PCR General Secretary during that period, Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej!  (How soon they forget...)   On the other hand, there was a proposal to merge this (budding) article into Communist Romania.  Here there is a bit more on the subject, eg, "During the early years, Romania's scarce resources after WWII were drained by the "SovRom" agreements: mixed Soviet-Romanian companies established in the aftermath of World War II to mask the looting of Romania by the Soviet Union, in addition to excessive war reparations paid to the USSR", and "Harsh persecutions of any real or imagined enemies of the communist regime started with the Soviet occupation in 1945. The Soviet army behaved as an occupation force (although theoretically it was an ally against Nazi Germany), and could arrest virtually anyone at will, for perceived "fascist" or "anti-Soviet" activities. The occupation period was marked by frequent rapes, looting and brutality against the civilian population.  Shortly after Soviet occupation, ethnic Germans (who were Romanian citizens and had been living as a community in Romania for 800 years) were deported to the Donbas coal mines. Despite the King's protest, who pointed out that this was against international law, an estimated 70,000 men and women were forced to leave their homes, starting in January 1945, before the war had even ended. They were loaded in cattle cars and put to work in the Soviet mines for up to 10 years as "reparations", where about one in five died from disease, accidents and malnutrition."  Except for that, and perhaps a bit more, the article deals basically only with the internal aspects of Communist Romania (at least up the early 1960s), with no sustained attempt at describing in-depth the role played by the Soviet occupation forces (that's how they are called in that article, and I never heard anyone complaining about that there...)  Now, one could conceivably try to put all this (and there is quite a bit, believe me) in the Communist Romania article, but how long can that one get?  And, by the way, note that even that article branches on to other subtopics, such as Romanian anti-communist resistance movement, Bărăgan deportations, Piteşti prison -- all significant, to be sure -- but are they more significant than the ab initio event, i.e, the Soviet occupation of Romania?   Turgidson 05:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What's the time frame of this article?

message: Guys, recall that we are not here to decide whether Romania was occupied w.r.t. the Geneva convention text defining occupation. We are here to report what other people say. Dpotop 09:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just like we should move "The Holocaust" because it's not NPOV and used by unofficial sources, right? Biruitorul 18:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

text: There was the Polish Secret State which the Soviets did their best to destroy (and suceeded). There was also armed resistance against the communists (cursed soldiers). So there are quite a few similarities, too. Please note I don't object to the usage of term 'occupation' in the article, I just don't think its the best (descriptive) title for the article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:OR

message: Perhaps some editors would like to comment on the issues at the article which I created in the aftermath of the above discussion; interestingly the issues raised there have some relevance to that article (and may give you some ideas how to expand this article).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, this looks good!  I'm jealous.  I was just thinking this morning about where to even start getting info on how many Soviet troops exactly there were in Romania during the period in question, who led them, where were they garrisoned, what was their equipment, etc, but that sounds very difficult to obtain (though I got a lead, am working on it).  In the meantime, Northern Group of Forces looks like too formidable a challenge to compete with!  Turgidson 21:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  According to article Southern Group of Forces, it was most likely the Soviet 10th Mechanised Army aka Special Mechanized Army. I still find it puzzling that the SGF would disband in 1947, while NGF or WGF lasted from the end of WWII to 1990s (CGF has an interesting history, being created in 1968, see Central Group of Forces).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  But in the corresponding article you say that the SGF was based in Hungary. Dpotop 06:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Talk:Northern Group of Forces]]

message: In case this is worth incorporating, from Istoria României în date, Editura Enciclopedică, Bucureşti 2003, 
p. 553. Iunie-iulie 1958. Trupele sovietice staţionate, din 1944 fără intrerupere, pe teritoriul României sunt retrase în urma tratativelor lui Gh. Gheorghiu-Dej cu N. S. Hruşciov, prin intermediul lui Emil Bodnăraş, fostul agent sovietic care se bucura de mare încredere la Moscova. Retragerea trupelor sovietice înseamnă încetarea ocupării militare directe a ţării, care a durat 14 ani. A fost cea mai îndelungată a unor trupe ruseşti în teritoriile româneşti, începând cu 1711. Hruşciov a consimţit la retragerea trupelor sovietice din România, întrucât dorea reluarea politicii de destindere cu (p 554) Occidentul, care fusese blocată de intervenţia armată împotriva revoluţiei anticomuniste din Ungaria.
While we're all here, let me also propose opening a new debate at Talk:Fântâna Albă incident. The proper title of the article should, of course, be "Fântâna Albă massacre", but it was moved with the following explanation: "Please! What's the point of strong words in the titles? The text, rather than titles should convey the message". That might be convincing, except 200 killed is not an "incident", especially when the the Orangeburg massacre killed 3, and the Boston Massacre killed 5, as did the Greensboro massacre and the Jonesboro massacre. Please take the discussion there, and prepare for a new round of debate. Biruitorul 23:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional source

message: I shortened the paragraph, and kept there only the contentious 3 paragraphs. The remaining text became the first section. Dpotop 14:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shortened

message: There are sources both linked in the article and on this page defining quite clearly the coordinates of Soviet occupation, the context, everything. The article is yet incomplete but we have already some materials to start with.
However I do not understand why the article gets tagged for POVs and POV title but the editors doing so do not bring at least one reliable source to support their claims. It was not an occupation, but a liberation? Scholarship, please. The Soviet occupation is mainly caused by Romanian reoccupation of Bessarabia? Scholarship, please. Remember, the burden of proof lies always on the one making the claim. Those who claimed it was a Soviet occupation brought their reliable sources. If the others do not have any, it's time for them to concede and to move along. Please. Daizus 22:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I admit Romanian editors have provided more references. This is no excuse for producing a pro-Nazi POV fork of established history. -- Petri Krohn 22:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not more references, the only references. And what you call a pro-Nazi fork is your opinion, original research and an insult addressed to me (as I support such an "occupation" view). And still you bring no source to support your position. Daizus 22:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Funny how the POV-tag pushers (almost) never add real content to the body of the article -- at most just pile on random stuff in the lead, contrary to wiki conventions on how a lead should like.  Ah, well, chacun à son goût. And, when out of arguments, Petri Krohn resorts to his usual "you're all Nazis" insults.  My inclination is to just ignore such chaff, build up the case brick by brick, and then the whole story should become blindingly clear (at least to those who want to see), and the lead will just write itself, as a stand-alone summary of the article, as it should.   (Metaphor alert!)  Jus' Keep On Truckin'.  Turgidson 22:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry you took it personally -- I was not referring to you specifically (we had a reasonably productive cooperation this morning, after all, even if we did not agree on much), but rather, to the incessant tagging and sterile reverts that occured thoughout the day, which, when coupled with some some nasty comments (just take a look), I found to be really disruptive.  As I said, I much prefer adding content that playing such games.  Turgidson 03:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disruptive tagging

message: While researching the subject, I came about an angle that I find rather interesting -- let me share it here, see if what other people think.  In August, 1944 Frank G. Wisner became the Office of Strategic Services station chief in Romania.  His first action was to set up the evacuation of 1700 American POWs hels in Romania, with the approval and help of King Michael.  This was all done on August 29, just days before the Red Army arrived in Bucharest. Here is a quote from Patricia Louise Wadley, "Even One Is Too Many", Ph.D. thesis, Texas Christian University, 1993:
The removal of the prisoners by air and the intelligence operation were probably ambiguous enterprises as far as the Soviets were concerned. Donovan was most expedient in sharing with the Russians the wealth of information gleaned from the intelligence operations. However, the insertion of an intelligence team into a prisoner repatriation/rescue operation could not help but raise the suspicion in the minds of the Soviets that future repatriation teams would also be composed of intelligence agents, whether OSS or military. The rescue of the prisoners was to be a singular event, for the Soviets would not cooperate in such an enterprise again. They had not really had much say in the Romanian operation and thus were unable to stop it. In future operations, however, they would exercise considerable control.
At the very least, this shows that, in late August, Romania still had quite a bit of autonomy, and was not yet under Soviet control. Also, note that Frank Wisner was a really first-hand witness to the subsequent Soviet occupation of Romania.  As quoted by David F. Rudgers, "The origins of covert action", Journal of Contemporary History, vol. 35 , no. 2 (2000), 249–262:  "Wisner (who had, as an OSS officer, witnessed the brutal Soviet occupation of Romania)".  If this is not a first-rate quote backing up the title of this article, I don't know what is.  
While at it, note also the following quote from Peter Grose, "Operation Rollback: America's Secret War Behind the Iron Curtain", Mariner Books
  excerpt:
Late in 1944, OSS station chief in Romania, Frank G. Wisner, reported from Romania that the advancing Red Army had deliberately let two Nazi divisions out of a trap, freeing them to fight the British and Americans in the Ardennes campaign on the western front.
Hmmmm....  Anyone knows more about this?  It kind of gives a different take on things than the usual "glorious" propaganda.  At any rate, it's in a published book, looks perfectly quotable, what do you think?  Turgidson 05:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Concerning the first excerpt. Well, it shows that Romanians in Bucharest still could do what they wanted to before the Red Army occupied Bucharest. :) Remember, until the 12th, the Soviets consideres us enemies. Davai ceas. Dpotop 08:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It also shows that, on August 23, 1944, Romania didn't simply switch sides to the "Allied (Soviet)" side, but really to the whole Allied side, which prominently included the United States and Great Britain.  In fact, one of the first official acts of the King post-August 23 was to approve the release of American POWs in Romania. Is this something well-known?  I could not find the info anywhere on the Romania-related pages, and it was not even on Wisner's page before (!) At the very least, I think this shows, once again, the need for a separate article for the Royal coup of August 23, 1944.  There were simply too many things happening, both before and after, connecting to too many strands, to be able to describe it the way it should in a paragraph or two in a non-dedicated article.  Turgidson 12:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  On second thoughts, this reference should be cited, to show that Romania was already cooperating with the Western Allies during the period Aug 23 - Sep 12, and that trust problems already appeared between the Allies. Dpotop 12:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  Cheers, Turgidson, seems we edited at the same time. I got a conflict. :) Dpotop 12:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Frank Wisner]] 

message: Maybe for many of us it's obvious, but I thought there will be people wishing such a statement to be clearly formulated. There were initatives of Romanians contributing to the situation (asking for Soviet military counseling for instance), even though ultimately they were caused by Soviet occupation. Beside the point I've suggested in the main article, another case is the meeting of PMR's CC's secretariate from June 29, 1948 where Bodnăraş et al. discussed and proposed a project on the reformation of the Romanian army which was submitted to USSR. Daizus 13:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not quite sure what to say -- if you think that's important, go ahead and restore that sentence.  To me it sounded kind of bland and I didn't quite see the point of it.  Maybe it can be developed and put into context -- eg, as a transition to the eventual withdrawal of Soviet forces, and the adoption of a (relatively) more independent role? My other concern is not to make that section disproportionately longer as compared to the other ones; maybe once we have a better sense of how much material is to put, and how things are to be organized, it will become more apparent what should stay and what should go. Eg, I'd be more interested in putting more on the cooperation of the Soviet Union with Romania in supressing the Hungarian Revolution -- I think this may be more interesting to a wider audience, and also give more internal coherence to the article.  If we are to insist on treating in detail the whole period from 1944 to 1958, that's the key event that justifies it into my mind.  Otherwise, it's sort like a prolongation of the occupation, at a much lower level of troops (kind of a long-drawn process): relevant, and to be mentioned, to be sure, but not that interesting, thus arguing for shortening. On the other hand, both  from a historical point of view, and from the "interesting" point of view, the October-November 1956 period is the one to highlight (out of the 1950-1958 period).  There is quite a bit of material on that in Verona's book -- eg, about Khruschev's (secret) visit to Bucharest in October 1956 to talk things over with Dej on how to plan the invasion -- looks like he asked Romania to join in militarily, but eventually those plans were abandoned, and it was settled on just logistic support (still, crucial for the military operation).  As an aside, I read there that Bodnaras was switched at the time to Transport/Communications Minister, and been tasked with supervising the coordination with Soviet troops.  Also, he played a crucial role in negotiating the Soviet troop withdrawal with Mr. K. in 1958.  Any ideas on where is best to put such info, and in how much detail?  Turgidson 13:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: [...]
După ce revolta a fost reprimată de trupele sovietice, staliniştii români au sprijinit folosirea terorii de către forţele de securitate sovietice şi maghiare împotriva revoluţionarilor. Pe data de 21 noiembrie 1956, o delegaţie la cel mai înalt nivel, condusă de Gheorghiu-Dej şi de Bodnăraş, s-a deplasat la Budapesta pentru a discuta cu Kádár despre ce trebuia făcut pentru a reprima complet revoluţia maghiară.
On B. and this topic, here are two another interesting excerpts from that report:
* on page 43, note 32:
Asemănarea dintre numirea lui Bodnăraş ca Ministru al Apărării în România (un afront adus Armatei Române) şi impunerea mareşalului sovietic Konstantin Rokossovsky ca ministru al Apărării în Polonia îndeamnă la reflecţie. Se pare însă că Bodnăraş a jucat un rol cheie în influenţarea lui Hruşciov pentru ca acesta să retragă trupele sovietice din România în iunie 1958, pregătind astfel terenul pentru politica de autonomie a lui Dej.
* on page 205 (the paragraph is about something else):
... după retragerea trupelor sovietice, în iulie 1958, inspirată lui Hruşciov de Emil Bodnăraş. (Oricum, trupele staţionau aici ilegal, ca şi în celelalte ţări ale lagărului sovietic; legal, trebuiau să plece după 10 februarie 1947, când a fost semnat Tratatul de Pace; pretextul menţinerii lor era nevoia unui coridor de legătură cu zona sovietică din Austria; în 1955 sovieticii au părăsit Austria, dar au continuat să rămână în
România şi Ungaria). Când, pe neaşteptate, Armata Roşie s-a retras, comuniştii români erau cei mai fideli aliaţi ai Moscovei ...
In the last paragraph I believe, comparing the other sources we had here, they are mistaken about the legal character of the occupation after 1947. See article 21, paragraph 1 from the Peace Treaty. Daizus 14:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: By the way, I forgot:  The other international aspect that we certainly need to mention is the Soviet justification for their prolonged occupation of Romania (more than a decade after the Peace Treaty) was their corridor for troops to occupy Austria.  There is plenty of material on that, it just needs to be added, though it's not so easy to put it in.  Note though that the Soviets left Austria in 1955, but stayed on in Romania for 3 more years, with even that figleaf of a flimsy justification gone.  But the explanation is not too hard to find (it's all referenced): Khruschev strated thinking of withdrawing from Romania in 1955 (more or less at the same time as from Austria).  But then this got meshed with the Yugoslav situation (remember, Soviet troops in Romania were also kept poised for a possible invasion of Yugoslavia, and also as conduit to Bulgaria), and things got delayed, until the Hungarian Revolution erupted, which put the kibosh on any plans for withdrawal, at least for a couple of years. At any rate, all these international aspects I think should be useful for putting things into a more global perspective -- they probably played the determinant role in prolonging the Soviet occupation (the purely "domestic" task of imposing communism in Romania had been already achived by the end of 1947, after all).  So that's why I'm pushing for that angle to better explain and conceptualize the latter stages of the occupation: Romania as a plaque tournante for the Soviets to project power in South-Eastern Europe during 1948-1958. In practical terms for the article, though, what we first need are some good section titles for all this.  I'm not sure whether this should be done chronologically (as in, say, 1948-1958 period?), or by topic (International aspects?) BTW, let's also not forget about a chronology at some point (perhaps at the end of the article?), to summarize the timeline of events.  I think this could be useful.  Turgidson 14:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A note on local initiatives

message: The lead is getting too long, once again.  Sorry, Irpen, for criticizing you at some point on this -- I now realize it's a general tendency for people editing this article (including myself at times, I must confess).  Part of the reason, I think, is due to the complexity of the subject, one that straddles different eras (from 1944 to 1958), with lots of twists and turns, especially in the beginning.  But the other reason is more technical -- as I've been saying now for a while (and a few others have joined in) -- we do not have a separate article on the August 23, 1944 coup -- which is the pivotal event when Romania switched sides in WWII, with the Soviet occupation starting shortly after.   Unless we're careful, those events can easily overtake the lead, which is not right: as has been said here many times, as per wikipedia guidelines, the lead should reflect as much as possible the contents of the article, be a summary of it, if you wish (plus a bit of background, to be sure).  So I think a detailed discussion of the coup (together with historical setup, various maneuvings that preceded it, eg, negotiations in Cairo, inflitration of Bodnăraş and others, arrest and detention of Antonescu, military operations in and around Bucharest between Aug 23 and Aug 31, freeing of American POWs, legacy of the coup, national holiday for many years, various interpretations over the years, etc, etc), belongs in that yet-to-be-written article (with a summary of what's relevant here, of course).  Any thoughts?  Turgidson 00:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: August 23 and the lead