Talk:Lord of Mann

message: In a constitutional sense, all the rulers of Man from 1399 onward were lords.  The grants of Richard II and Henry IV bestowed 'lordship' and other feudal rights and did not describe the recipients as kings.  It appears that English-grant 'kings' before 1504 used the style 'Lord of Man' as often as not; see, e.g. http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/manxsoc/msvol04/v3p013.htm , even though by tradition Thomas, 2d Earl of Derby, who succeeded to the lordship in 1504, "relinquished the title of king of Man, as he preferred 'being a great lord to being a petty king'," (according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 9th ed. [1888], 9:454).  Henry IV's grant of 1406 governed the tenure and succession of the Isle of Man without emendation all the way down to the time of the succession dispute which was resolved by regrant in 1610 (see John Parr, An Abstract of the Customs and Ordinances of the Isle of Man, [Manx Society, vol. 12, Douglas, 1867], pp. 28-40 on the succession dispute and the review of tenure of the Stanleys under Elizabeth I and James I).   See Dickinson and Sharpe on the infrequency of use of the royal title outside the Island well before 1504, and the continuity of its use within the island much later: J. R. Dickinson and J. A. Sharpe, "Courts, Crime and Litigation in the Isle of Man, 1580-1700," Historical Research 72 (1999), pp. 140-59, at 142: "The Lord of Man wielded quasi-regal powers, being in effect de jure king of Man. The regal title was, apparently, not used outside the island after its annexation by England in c.1333, but the Stanleys continued to be styled Rex Manniae et Insularum in the island's court records until at least the later seventeenth century. Outside the island, perhaps understandably, the Stanleys were content to be styled Lords of Man."  Most lists of Manx rulers reflect this, e.g. http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/people/lords/index.htm, where all grantees from the English crownfrom 1399 on are simply listed as 'lords'. Therefore, why make such a distinction of kings before 1504 and lords after?  Shouldn't  material on the two pages King of Mann and Lord of Mann be redistributed to reflect the scholarly consensus?  68.166.238.18 (talk) 00:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lords versus Kings

message: History is full of people claiming hereditary rights. The term "Pretender to the Throne" is one that has been used to describe such instances. At times there have been multiple Pretenders to a single throne. It's all part of the vetting process.
I don't think it would be unreasonable to add a one paragraph section stating that David Howe of Maryland presented himself as the Pretender to the Throne of the Isle of Mann, with links to his arguments and arguments of those that oppose his claim.
I would also give Mr. Howe about 90 days to obtain a letter from Burke's Peerage stating their opinion on his lineage or I would remove the section. As to the rest of the claim, I haven't seen any official UK royal office making comment one way or another which I find odd. Mensch (talk) 23:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Chief Minister of the Isle of Man, Tony Brown responded to the claim by saying "As far as the Isle of Man Government is concerned the Isle of Man's sovereign is Her Majesty the Queen, as Lord of Mann."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dabbler (talk • contribs) 00:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As Mr Howe has in recent days stated that he is not seeking to displace the Queen from her position as Lord of Mann, but is instead seeking the title King of Mann, I'd contend that the issue isn't relevant enough to this article for a mention. The King of Mann article maybe. Mauls (talk) 13:51, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pretender to the Throne 

message: The term Chiarn Vanninagh is not appropriate as the translation for Lord of Mann. Chiarn Vanninagh in itself doesn't make sense. Chiarn is a masculine word, therefore the phrase should read Chiarn Manninagh. However, this means simply Manx Lord, and can refer to any Manx Lord,  whether that person is a lord on the Isle of Man, or a lord elsewhere of Manx descent. The Lord of Mann can only be translated as Çhiarn Vannin - Vannin being the genitive of Mannin, c.f. Reiltys Vannin ("Government of Mann"), Ellan Vannin ("Isle of Mann") a.r.e. --MacTire02 (talk) 11:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name in Manx 

message: The Lord Proprietor article needs some work.  It is almost exclusively about the American colonies and says very little about the Lord of Mann or other Lord Proprietors, especially as a British legal institution.--Bruce Hall (talk) 05:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Lord Proprietor article

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