Talk:Icelandic language/Archive 1

message: If you speak icelandic and come across here, please add icelandic words to the comparison table at Germanic languages. Thanks! — Sverdrup 21:04, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Icelandic language speakers

message: A couple of years back I noticed that the spelling in Teach Yourself Icelandic at my then-local library was different to the Icelandic I was finding online. I can't remember the details any more but I seem to recally the old spelling using "z" more. Can somebody shed some light on this? — Hippietrail 02:45, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Z" was abolished from the language in 1973 and replaced with an "S", the old rules regarding use of the "Z" where quite complicated and it was the exactly same sound as "S". It's only allowed today to use "Z" in personal and family names. Regardless of that, many people who learned to spell before 1973 still refuse to give up the "Z" and it is still widely used in Iceland's largest newspaper (Morgunblaðið). A respectable secondary school in Reykjavík, Verzlunarskóli Íslands still uses the "Z" in it's name although it goes against the rules. --Biekko 12:23, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And some contributors still use the "z" because of age or where they were educated. The letter z is not a part of the current Icelandic alphabet, but it will only become extinct, when the last writer, who uses it, dies. Io 20:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthographic reforms 

message: it's now:
  [..] some of which may be regarded as tenses, other as aspects to varying degrees.
shouldn't that be:
  [..] some of which may be regarded as tenses, others as aspects to varying degrees.
(or is that other than?)
: It should have been "others" Io 20:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  typo? 

message: I've either read or heard that several Germanic languages besides German used to capitalise all common nouns. In Danish this practice was abolished in a spelling reform in the late 1940s. Can anybody tell me if this was ever practiced in Icelandic and if so when was it abolished? — Hippietrail 16:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was practised in the 19. century, but not consistently. It was abolished in a spelling reform of the 19-twenties. For the precise date, please fill in. Io 20:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former capitalisation of commoun nouns? 

message: The 00:46, 26 Mar 2005 (diff)
edit by 194.144.21.61 seems to be a copy-and-paste job from . Notice that the sigur rós homepage has every letter in lower case, even the word "english," just like the anonymous's contribution. Sigur Rós's homepage's pronunciation guide in turn looks like a lot of other pages
.
--Tokek 02:37, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted to pre-copyvio version--Duk 03:55, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible copyright violation 

message: Shouldn't something be mentioned about the fact, that there is an officially stated aim against loanwords in Icelandic, and how calques or old words are being given new meanings to avoid this. (For instance "simi" (seam) for telephone.) Also, other examples of lexicon.
:There is in fact, an officially stated stance against foreignisms, but there is no regulatory body with any real power. All in all, the language develops according to the wishes of the speakers. As for examples of the lexicon, look up in any dictionoray. Cheers Io 20:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Regulation

message: Why is Íslenzk málstöð counted as an official regulator? It is (as far I know) only an advisory body. I'd suggest that this field be left empty.Io 19:56, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official regulator again

message: Plosives:
bóla  "spot (on skin)"
póla  "poles"
dóla  as in "dóla sér" "hang around"
tóla  "tools"
gjóla  "light wind"
kjóla  "dresses"
góla  "howl"
kóla  "cola"
Nasals:
geymd  "stored (feminine)"
geymt  "stored (neuter)"
leynd  "kept secret (feminine)"
leynt  "kept secret (neuter)"
lengd  "lengthened (feminine)"
lengt  "lengthened (neuter)"
banginn  "afraid"
bankinn  "the bank"
Fricatives
vara  "warn"
fara  "go"
Sara  proper noun
þara  "sea weed"
jóla  "christmas"
hjóla  "cycle"
hóla  "hills"
Other
hráka  "spit"
ráka  "creases"
hláka  "defrost"
Láka  proper noun
Stefán Ingi 20:07, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Minimal pairs

message: Just out of curiosity, has it been investigated whether the preaspiration could be interpreted as a glottal stop or not? Also, if a sentence starts with a vowel (or any part of a sentence after a pause starts with a vowel), is there a glottal stop present? I'm reminded of the troubles Germans learning French have dropping their glottal stops, which French does not possess. (The canonical example is "ein Ei" vs. "un œuf".) Cheers Io 19:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the glottal plosive out of my own feeling for the language, as I did with the velar lateral approximates approximants. If anyone disagrees, or even better, can point to to studies to the contrary, feel free to remove it. Personally, I'm not a linguist, so I relied on my ears and vocal cords to include the sounds, but try saying "einn er" with emphasis, first as it comes to you naturally and then try saying it without a stop. Cheerio Io 20:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As an additional Christmas present this year, Kristján Árnason agrees with me regarding the glottal stop (ʔ). In Íslensk tunga I. Hljóð he says: The glottal stop is more ubiquitous in Icelandic speech than often assumed. In addition to playing a part in the formation of some stops, it often occurs at the beginning of a stressed syllable beginning with a vowel. It is extremely satifying to have one's suspicions confirmed. Cheerio Io 22:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. You should add the work to the references section of the article. - Haukur 16:46, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Will do, when I've sorted out the velars. Both me and everybody and else (including the authors of the IPA) seem to be a bit confused on the subject. In the meantime I heartily recommend the entire work (although I got the impression that Hölskuldur Þráinsson, who wrote about syntax, isn't quite sure whether to be a Chomskyist or not :) ). In any case, all authors strive as they can for a balanced point of view. Bear in mind, that I only got the work yesterday and it runs to about 1700-1800 pages. :) Gleðileg jól Io 17:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't seen it yet but I'm in Iceland now and I've found Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson's phonetics book. Will check it when I have time :) Gleðileg jól! - Haukur 18:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glottal stop 

message: The table of consonants now contains four entries in the field "Alveolar, lateral approximants". The relevant thing is (see Íslensk tunga I p. 160), that the Icelandic lateral approximates l̥ and l may become velarized. The resulting sound is quite different from the original. This is not a very common, but a fairly regular phenomenon, namely when gl or lg are followed by a consonant. The IPA-convention for velarization is to put a small latin gamma superscript on the velarized sound (e. g. lɣ). I decided to put those two additional sounds in the alveolar field, since that should probably still be considered the place of articulation. Personally I feel that those sounds have a place in the table itself, but I'll concede, that it might be a topic of discussion, whether to have them in the table or mention them in explanations below. Cheerio Io 18:13, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Velarized, alveolar, lateral approximants

message: It turns out that your example (Haukur), tott, really is [thɔht], but according to spectral analysis the word is not entirely symmetrical, although the difference, when played backwards, may not be discernible to the normal, human ear. Cheers Io 18:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Preaspiration, again

message: I removed the sentence about High Icelandic from the article but Timbur-Helgi reinserted it. My view is that although the project deserves its own page on Wikipedia it is not important enough that it should be mentioned in this article, basically because nobody speaks it. Other opinions? Stefán Ingi 01:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it seems too specialized for a mention in an overview article like this one. On the other hand a short mention would not be amiss in an article about Icelandic language purism and neologisms in general. Maybe Timbur-Helgi can write such an article. - Haukur 01:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My personal opinion is that the words "artificially created" automatically disqualify High Icelandic from being mentioned in the context of dialects, which was where Timbur-Helgi put his addition. A mention of High Icelandic in the body of the article might become acceptable as it expands, but then in its proper place, not as a dialect. Cheers Io 15:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  High Icelandic 

message: Where would you say Icelandic is spoken. Currently the infobox says Iceland, Denmark, Norway, parts of Canada (Manitoba) which I think is a bit of a stretch. Maybe just Iceland would be better. Stefán Ingi 15:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. It's spoken in Iceland and then wherever Icelanders happen to be - a lot of us are in Scandinavia at any given time, certainly. I'll support listing only Iceland. - Haukur 15:46, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I mostly agree with Haukur, but parts of Canada should probably be kept in. It's still alive there (barely) as a medium of communication with a history, as opposed to the Icelanders elsewhere, who come and go. Cheers Io 22:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed Denmark and Norway from the list. I can see the logic in keeping Canada in but sadly I believe that it is dying out there so at some point in the future it will have to be removed. Stefán Ingi 13:20, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoken in 

message: It seems to me that <v> often becomes [V\] between a consonant and certain vowels, such as in "tvö" and "svo".  I have never, however, seen anything that claims [V\] even exists in Icelandic.  Am I mishearing things? --Crushti
:What is [V\] in IPA? I've looked for it in the SAMPA article and I found nothing like. Ciacchi 20:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I assume the contributor above meant [v\] (otherwise written [P]) - the labiodental approximant. But I can't comment on whether it's a phone in Icelandic. --Dave ~ (talk) 22:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, my apologies, I meant [v\]. --Crushti 23:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  <v> 

message: I have a lot of questions about how the letter g is pronounced in Icelandic. The different pronunciation guides floating around the Internet are often contradictory and seldom use IPA transcriptions, and the current article does not have enough information about this either. So far, using this article and relying on the pronunciations given for Icelandic words in Edmund Gussman's Phonology: Analysis and Theory (Cambridge Univ. Press, 2002), I've come up with some guesses about how to pronounce g:
* word-initially as , or if followed by e or i ,  also in the combination gj
* intervocally as , at least when the following vowel isn't e or i
* in the combinations gl, gn, gg, lg, and ng as  (or in the latter cases,  if followed by e or i)
* in combinations such as gr and gð as  (the word vogris  seems to be an exception)
* in the combination gs as 
* word-finally as , at least when a single g follows a vowel
Are these guesses correct? Or at least, if I follow those rules, would the resulting pronunciations be acceptable enough with only a few exceptions?
Also, could anyone tell me how to deal with the some cases that don't fit into any of the cases above? For instance:
* When g occurs intervocally but the following vowel is e or i, is it still pronounced as ?
:*No, when the following vowel is i you get a diphthong with [i] as the second element; "magi" is [mai:I] for example. Intervocalic g with the following vowel as e doesn't occur except in combinations and loanwords. The word "lager" is, counterintuitively, pronounced with a . Haukur
* When g occurs at the end of the word but follows another consonant, as in Ingibjörg, is it still pronounced as ? Are there other cases, like Icelandic words ending in gg or lg? Oh, and word-final g in ng is pronounced as , right?
:*The g in Ingibjörg is a [k]. So is the word-final one in the ng-combination. Haukur
* When is the g in ng (or for that matter, the k in nk) not pronounced? The words lengd and svangt seem to have  directly followed by  or . The article currently says only that " appears (in addition to before velar stops) also before  and  through the deletion of  in the consonant clusters  and ." But does the deletion always occur? Wouldn't the g in tungl be pronounced?
:* The g in tungl only surfaces as  in a dying dialect. Haukur
* What is it with guð being pronounced as , as in the pronunciation guide for Björk Guðmundsdóttir, ? Is there a rule for the insertion of ? Does this occur in words like Guðrún? Gunnar? Sigur? Or is the insertion of  optional so that  is a perfectly acceptable pronunciation?
:*The word "guð" (god) is irregular and always pronounced , so is any combination with it. Haukur
* What is the pronunciation of g in other letter combinations, such as in Ásgeir, Hallgrímsson, and Vigdís? Is there a general rule to predict how g would be pronounced in all these different combinations?
Finally, on an unrelated note, is the d sound deleted in the names Davidsdóttir and Rögnvaldsson? It certainly seems to be for Guðmundsdóttir according to the pronunciation given. Is there a rule for this, such as that d is not pronounced in the combination ds?
I realise I've asked a whole lot of questions, but I'd appreciate any help, even little things like adding the pronunciations for the words and names I asked about. --Iceager 15:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right on most counts, you've clearly done a lot of research and have a solid background in phonetics. I added answers to a few of your questions, I hope others will step up to help. Haukur 15:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll also take a stab, but intersperse my additions between the numbered items (forgive me). I'll say, this is a fine effort, since g is probably the most complicated letter in the Icelandic alphabet. Io 20:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: If I take a stab at it somebody will come along shortly and correct me.
# word initially 'g' is an unvoiced plosive, a palatal one [c] if followed by j, e, é, i, í, y, ý or æ but velar [k] otherwise (gaf, gefa)
# also 'lg', 'ng' and 'rg' follow the same pattern (this can only occur after a vowel) (belgur, löng, berg)
#:This seems to be an unnecessary item or at least should be reworded.
#::Yes, reading it again now, it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps: the 'g' in 'lg', 'ng' and 'rg' is pronouced [k] or [c] (following the above pattern) if followed by a vowel or word finally. If followed by a consonant the 'g' in these combinations is silent but in the combination 'ng' the 'g' colors the 'n' to   and the 'g' in 'lg' colors the 'l' to [].
# word finally 'gg' is an unvoiced velar plosive [k] (bygg)
# between vowels, 'gg' is an unvoiced plosive, a palatal one [c] if followed by j, e, é, i, í, y, ý or æ but velar [k] otherwise (leggur, leggir)
#:Is there an example of g followed by é?
#::Hmm, perhaps the name of the letter, "gé". I'm not sure though.
# word finally 'g' is an unvoiced (half voiced) velar fricative [x] (lag)
#: unless followed by a word starting with a vowel.
# between a vowel and an unvoiced consonant 'g' and 'gg' is an unvoiced (half voiced) velar fricative [x] (lagt, byggt)
# after a vowel and before i 'g' is a voiced palatal approximant [j]
# after a vowel and before anything else 'g' is a voiced velar fricative []
#:If followed by a consonant, it is unvoiced.
#::PS: It also depends on the consonant. Compare lagt [laxt], hagl [hakl ̥] and lagði [laɣði].
#: I've often felt dumb, but rarely more than now. Disregard the comment I struck. I didn't read the article closely enough. With blushing cheeks and a hanging head. Io 18:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

text: In my speech, careful or not, neither the [ð] nor the [d] are silent. But I admit that I may not be typical. Cheers Io 20:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I've unstruck hagl. Apparently only the original author can strike or unstrike his comments according to Wikicode. You could have done it without complaints from me. As it happens, I posted a message on the originator's user page and offered him to undertake some research on the matter. If noone objects, I will do so in the next few days and post a pre-pre-pre-definitive list. Cheers Io 20:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of ''g''