Talk:Heysel Stadium disaster/Archive 1

message: Seriously, this article needs a complete rewrite. It's one of the worst examples of bias I've encountered on Wikipedia, and I've read quite a few (thousand). Well, I guess sh** happens if you write an article based on English newspapers covering an indicent caused by English hooliganism. Interestingly, I've read both the German and French versions and they are mostly sober, NPOV, matter-of-fact accounts of the events of that day. This article should be rewritten using the facts from all four major contributions (English/German/French/Italian Wikipedia), but focusing on the NPOV style of the French and German documents. Alii or whatever your name is, you have failed utterly and completely. Sorry. -80.145.224.163 15:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've looked over the German and French articles. Neither gives a single source. Both are very brief accounts. I think it would be more useful if you would point out exactly what is wrong with this article rather than saying "all of it". Make a big bullet pointed list. Then at least, if the article is ever deemed to be in need of a large re-write, authors will know the sorts of things people take issue with. aLii 15:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Awfully biased

message: Read Alan Hansen's account in the BBC Sport page (05th April) on his experience at Heysel. There's one source, for you.
Personally , I remember seeing News footage of the event (BBC and ITV) - and there was a lot.
Juve fan's were throwing bits of cement, and fireworks - yes I know it happens alot in Italian (can I say Italian?) football, but following a few days after the Bradford fire disaster.....a bit provocative.
The Liverpool fans rushed the Juventus fans, yes there is no excuse for this behaviour- However -remember this is the '80's and rushing the opposition supporters was a common , and amazingly at the time regarded as a fairly harmless, practice. (Read Nick Hornby - Fever Pitch, and the other dozens of lesser books on Engish Football in this period).
The events were horrible, no one was ever really punished - but following years of English Clubs doing this kind of thing,all over Europe,  this was the final and most tragic straw.
Before this, Liverpool fans were not known as hooligans quite the opposite; but that was by the standards of the day. No excuses should be made ; but at least a balanced view from recorded archives to understand why something happened. 
We should also not forget the legislation brought into the game following this, especially around barriers - created many of the problems which made Hillsborough such a tragedy.(Taylor Report).
::I clearly remember watching BBC Breakfast Time the morning before the match where they were discussing the game. Frank Bough was talking to co-presenter Debbie Greenwood (a Liverpudlian) and I remember him saying something like "There will be no no trouble, because there are no Hooligans among the Liverpool supporters", and Debbie Greenwood nodding away. Liverpool fans were definitely not known as trouble makers before that match. Jooler 18:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raining Missiles - read some articles 

message: I think the bit about the 2005 CL tie between the clubs could use some rewriting. If I didn't know better I'd get the impression that there were a lot more trouble than there actually was. At Anfield in Liverpool, all that happened was that some of the Juve fans turned their backs to the apologies to show they weren't quite ready to forgive yet. There were no physical confrontations between fans there at all. In Turin there were some minor confrontations between fans and Juve ultras quarreled with the police outside the stadium and yes, there were a few seats and bottles and things thrown inside the stadium but there were hardly more problems than what's par for the course in a game in Italy these days. Considering the worries people had before the games, everything went AMAZINGLY well.
:I think problems due to the Juventus supporters during the tie in Italy should be noted as this is an article about hooliganism. I don't think that saying "well it's always that bad in Italy" excuses them at all - that is how the disaster happened in the first place! aLii 12:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 2005 Champions League tie 

message: I removed the first section which copied the h2g2 article pretty much word for word.  Stu ’Bout ye! 14:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a comment H2g2 is a peer review site written by the public, like wikipedia, so you cant really copyvio it can you? Philc TECI 16:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: another comment, the whole article is a copyvio of the h2g2 article  --Philc TECI 20:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sorry, no its not just the background paragraph Philc TECI 20:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyvio

message: This article currently has the sentence:
:After the events in Rome, club rivalries had been put aside: Juventus were to catch the full fury of the English hooligan elite.
These "events in Rome" are not referred to earlier in the article. It would be helpful if either (a) they were previously mentioned or (b) a hyperlink is added to "events in Rome" to refer to an alternate wikpedia article about these events.
::There was a documentary on the BBC called "Reds in Europe" I think. In it, Phil Thompson and some supporters at the final in Rome in 1984 described how Liverpool fans were attacked when they were leaving the stadium. I don't know any more than that really. I'll have a look for any further info I can find. --MackORell 12:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was surprised there's no mention of those events in detail to be honest. It's the reason various English FC firms turned up. Basically LFC scarfies were set upon in Rome, none of the English firms liked it and arranged to go to Heysel together to claim revenge. There's a mention of it at http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A713909 and also at http://family.maltanet.net/hawk/html/Heysel.htmlPhilipPage 21:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Note: This discussion is now obsolete. aLii 12:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which events in Rome? 

message: Are you going to cite any sources for the Millwall and other fans being there? Strikes me as bullshit to make Liverpool fans seem less responsible by dilution. Not that I'd be surprised from a scouse apologist Pear 11:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other fans

message: The article cites the stadium as having been built in 'the twenties' and in '1930'. Can someone who knows correct whichever of these is wrong?
A. Consensus elsewhere on the web seems to suggest 1930 - some sites say 1920s but these are very much in the minority. On that basis I changed "in the 1920s" to "1930". 147.188.192.41 13:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: When was the stadium built?

message: This article looks like its been written as novel, It has so many requirements of citation and unverified statements  and POV, that it looks to me like a tear down and start again job. Philc TECI 17:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to try and find sources for the article, but I agree that probably half of it will eventually have to be removed. The sources I have been finding are generally eyewitness reports from Liverpool fans and hearsay from Liverpool players, which is hardly NPoV. A few that seem uncontroversial I'm putting in though or we'd end up with no article! aLii 01:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Book

message: Here's a timeline of the aftermath for someone to use, i'm going to bed...
http://football.guardian.co.uk/championsleague200405/story/0,15008,1450635,00.html
aLii 03:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: To do

message: Some citations are needed to support what is being talked about the situation inside the stadium.
smr 10:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that section just needs completely rewriting! As of yet I can't be bothered to do the necessary research - perhaps you will? aLii 15:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References