Wikipedia talk:Quotations should not contain wikilinks

message: I recommend that you suggest this as an addition to Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context.  It would seem to fit better there than as a stand-alone page.  Rossami (talk) 23:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about if there is general acceptance of this proposal we can merge it into that at some future point in time? I will post an FYI note there too. Hollow are the Ori 23:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, how much critical mass of support do you think I need before I can remove wikilinks from quotations without flack or revert war from those that apparently disagree? Hollow are the Ori 00:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You'll never be completely free from flak or risk of revert war.  Wikipedia tends to draw partisans who will pick fights over anything.  But you have a principled and well-reasoned position.  I've removed them where I saw them without too much trouble before.  Be bold and just start fixing them.  Call for help if someone does pick a fight.  Rossami (talk) 02:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it really a good idea to encourage HatO to expand his revert warring to more articles?  Wouldn't it be better to settle the matter with a firm guideline derived from consensus?  Gamaliel 02:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Untainted quotations serve the reader and everyone far better than alleged ease of navigation in my interpretation. Hollow are the Ori 03:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with this as a basic guideline, but not as a policy since there may be too many exceptions. JoshuaZ 16:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: When applicable, the quote should be wiki linked to the appropriate place in wikiquote or wiktionary. Though again, this probably wouldn't be 'in' the quote, but a reference either at the end or at the begining. KalevTait 10:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's not in the quote then I don't have a problem with it and that is actually something that should be done when following this guideline. Though, separately I don't think definitions should be wikilinked because comprehension of text either happens or it doesn't, the act of learning a word or phrase you don't know actually should be slowed down. Hollow are the Ori 10:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In principle, I like this proposal. Trying to think of a counterexample I can come up with the lyrics section in  Das Lied der Deutschen which contains entirely appropriate wikilinks to some obscure (but topically important) European place names.Arbor 08:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is why this guideline is called "should not" rather than "must not" contain wikilinks, though once people understand that quotations are fragments of human expression and to copy them requires 100% exactness I suspect few if any wikilinks inside quotations will ever be appropriate, perhaps only if the source text contains links itself. Hollow are the Ori 18:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Joe Bloggs has been vocal in his opposition to Elbonia, saying "I think Elbonia is the worst thing ever".
Clearly it would be better to link the first occurrence of Elbonia rather than the second one.  Link the first occurrence is an existing policy. If you want to say as a Guideline, "It is generally advisable where possible to wikilink to an article from outside the body of a quotation rather than from inside it", fair enough.  Any stronger assertion than that is too likely to misguide those lacking in common sense. If someone is worried about "tidiness" then, rather than deleting a link altogether, they can move it elsewhere in the article, even if this means (gasp) adding a new sentence. Deleting a useful wikilink is always bad; moving it elsewhere in an article may be good. jnestorius(talk) 09:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: One problem is the wikilinking of a mere reference to something else gives errantly greater emphasis on what in many cases is already too literal, for example, due to the emphasis of the wikilink readers might be even more likely to become deluded into thinking that those who criticize the Clear Skies Act are against clear skies, which is not true. Hollow are the Ori 18:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You lost me on this one.  I don't see how a wikilink gives greater or lesser emphasis to the text being linked.  In fact, your example seems like an excellent example where a wikilink can eliminate ambiguity be taking readers to an article with a rich discussion of the controversy.  The Clear Skies Act article includes a robust "Criticisms" section.  Rossami (talk) 20:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikilinks and html links in general might add emphasis to what is already excessively literal. Just because legislation is titled with the phrase "Clear Skies Act" doesn't mean it intrinsically will make the sky clear. And how an author uses a reference is unique to each and every author. The point of having a quotation isn't about making mere references, it is about conveying their self contained argument or opinion. Feel free to add wikilinks you consider relevant just after the quotation or in a section just below. Hollow are the Ori 21:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't follow this logic at all. Whether "Clear Skies Act" actually makes the sky clear has nothing to do with whether "Clear Skies Act" is wikilinked or not. In fact, if you think the title is misleading, you should want it wikilinked, to make it easier for a reader to find out how misleading it actually is. This is especially true since its entirely possible that a further discussion of the Clear Skies Act in the context of the article might be inappropriate. Chuck 16:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other discussion 

message: I support the proposal.  Links in quotations (like links to parts of titles) look untidy and slow the reader down; if something needs to be linked, a way should be found to do so elsewhere in the article. --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 21:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. See my comments below. Carcharoth 18:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Support 

message: # Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 21:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Users who support this guideline 

message: #Noisy | Talk 01:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Users who oppose this guideline 

message: First, may I point out long quotes that don't use wikilinks in the quotes:
*Blood, toil, tears, and sweat
*We shall fight on the beaches
*This was their finest hour
*Never was so much owed by so many to so few
Secondly, I would like to list the quotes from the Winston Churchill article to see if this will help provide some examples to debate:
*"My daddy is Chancellor of the Exchequer and one day that's what I'm going to be."
*"He [Churchill] and a photographer were both risking valuable lives. I understand what the photographer was doing but what was the Right Honourable gentleman doing?"
*"strangled in its cradle"
*"Anyone can rat [change parties], but it takes a certain ingenuity to re-rat."
*"Always so charming, always so wrong."
*"either the country will break the General Strike, or the General Strike will break the country."
*"rendered a service to the whole world," showing, as it had, "a way to combat subversive forces"
*"Roman genius ... the greatest lawgiver among men."
*He denigrated the father of the Indian independence movement, Mahatma Gandhi, as "a half-naked fakir" who "ought to be laid, bound hand and foot, at the gates of Delhi and then trampled on by an enormous elephant with the new viceroy seated on its back"
*"the wilderness years"
*"peace in our time"
*"Winston's back!"
*"I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat" speech. He followed that closely with two other equally famous ones, given just before the Battle of Britain. One included the immortal line, "We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender." The other included the equally famous "Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.' " At the height of the Battle of Britain, his bracing survey of the situation included the memorable line "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few"
*"This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning"
*they pledged to convert Germany after its unconditional surrender "into a country primarily agricultural and pastoral in its character."
*As he expounded in the House of Commons in 1944, "Expulsion is the method which, insofar as we have been able to see, will be the most satisfactory and lasting. There will be no mixture of populations to cause endless trouble... A clean sweep will be made. I am not alarmed by these transferences, which are more possible in modern conditions."
*Unless some effective world supergovernment for the purpose of preventing war can be set up… the prospects for peace and human progress are dark… If… it is found possible to build a world organization of irresistible force and inviolable authority for the purpose of securing peace, there are no limits to the blessings which all men enjoy and share.
*From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an Iron Curtain has descended across the continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia, all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere.
*he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature "for his mastery of historical and biographical description as well as for brilliant oratory in defending exalted human values".
*Arthur Balfour described The World Crisis as "Winston's brilliant autobiography, disguised as a history of the universe."
*He said several times: "I will leave judgements on this matter to history — but I will be one of the historians."
I would add comments, but that will have to wait. Carcharoth 22:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Churchill example 

message: See the proposal here to delete this proposal. Plus my response. I would appreciate anyone else's views on what is happening, as I am quite shocked by this. Carcharoth 00:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Um, it seems someone wants to delete the proposal 

message: After a bit of searching, I've managed to find an fairly recent discussion from December 2005 in the archives of the Manual of Style: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_37#Wikilinks_when_quoting. Opinion seemed to be pretty evenly split there as well. Carcharoth 09:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old discussion from Manual of Style archives 

message: I have attempted to distill the conclusions of this discussion into a few short bullets which I tentatively inserted into Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context#Specific issues.  I recommend that we redirect this page and continue the discussion over there.  Thanks.  Rossami (talk) 16:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like a great idea. Thanks for doing that. To tidy up any loose ends, would it be possible to mark this proposal as "rejected", with a note explaining that it is too restrictive and that there are cases for and against wikilinking in quotes, depending on the context? If so, is there a need for a formal process to confirm rejection? Carcharoth 10:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now redirected.  Sorry that I lost track of this for so long.  Rossami (talk) 20:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge and redirect 

message: It seems User:Hollow are the Ori is was a sockpuppet of ArbCom blocked User:Zen-master. 132.231.1.82 14:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Hollow are the Ori]] blocked indefinitely

message: This page was the subject of an MfD discussion closed on 11 June 2006.  The result was Keep. Xoloz 15:18, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: MfD Result Notice