Talk:Occidental College/Archive 1

message: Ignat has suggested that these sections are NPOV and reflect the personal beliefs of some people editing this article. I would like to put this up for disscussion to other people who are editing this article. What do you all think? 
My opinions on this matter can be found on the User talk page of Ignat at User talk:Ignat. I think that these items are npov and suitable for a page about the college. The Notable Professors sections shows professors that have accomplished notable and newsworthy achievements, i.e. awards, reputable positions that put them in the public eye, etc., for instance compare the corresponding section on the UCLA School of Law page. The picture shows a building and landmark that are recognizable on the school's campus, and do not imply any religious affiliation. If anything, the chapel illustrates some of the school's history as a relious institution, as described in the History section. I would like to find out if others agree with ignat on this issue or if people see there being no pov problem.Asedzie 06:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Herrick Chapel Picture and Notable Professors Sections

message: On a different topic, does anyone know what the "staff 145" figure refers to in the info box? If it's faculty, the number is close, but it is incorrect to refer to faculty as "staff". If it refers to staff (non-adminstrative, non-faculty), then I'm not sure why that statistic is so prominent.  --Ignat 21:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Staffing Number 

message: I placed a disputed tag on this article because the defintions in this section represent the views of controversial groups and do not necessarily reflect the real policies of Occidental College. They suspiciously appear to be the views of the group FIRE, a group that has been involved in a lawsuit with Occidental College over these issues, as well as other groups that have extreme political views.71.146.83.127 10:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Multiculturalism

message: Okay, anonymous user, I've added the first sentence of the Mission Statement.  Feel free to include the whole thing if you like.  After some consideration, I've concluded that the back-and-forth replacement of one text with another is misguided.  The mission statement is what it is, and is information, thus, should be included.  All I ask is that it be presented as the school's own statements rather than as the purportedly objective unsourced (and thus plagiarized) observation of a third party.
Timothy Usher
(tried to sign the recommended way, but tildes remained)
I repeat, if you want to bring up your problems with Occidental College's multiculturalism policy, you must do so in an unbiased way, citing all of the sources you have gathered within the article.71.146.65.154 22:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mission Statement

message: Timothy Usher - Although I am loath to get into this discussion, I think that the people who visit this talk page should get a clear idea of what you are trying to do to this article, and why this article has a disputed POV tag.
-It has a POV tag because I added one after anonymous user 71.146.etc. removed it.  I don't accept vandalized articles as NPOV.
"You are promoting a fringe opinion on a highly politicized topic."
And this fringe opinion is?  Answer, please?
"Asedzie" -by removing boosterish sections, I was following your logic here: you’d held that the presentation of unpleasant or controversial facts is politically-motivated and thus POV.  Further, you’ve held that the solution - despite the wiki guidelines posted above - is to remove the offending section, rather than rework the passage to make it more NPOV, placing the burden upon the original poster, rather than the editor, to reword and repost until it flies.
The “selectivity/reputation” section, though it contains some facts, is clearly POV as it stands (since corrected).
“41% of applicants for fall 2005 enrollment were admitted, the lowest admit rate in the history of the college.”
What’s the source for this?  Even if you can find it quoted elsewhere, it’s hard to see how it could be anything other than the school itself.  You’ve said that claims must be sourced within the article, Why not set a good example by following it yourself?
Wiki is *not* a place for businesses to promote their products.
As in: “state-of-the-art center, which opened in 2003, offers the latest in computer and scientific technology...”
Please.  Is that from their own brochure?
“Presumably this was an effort to drag Occidental College's name through the mud...”
Eliminating boosterish sections isn’t “dragging [someone’s] name through the mud”.  I question the sincerity of your outrage.
You also wrote, 
“I am truly disturbed by your egregious misuse of the wikipedia article on Occidental College for promoting your personal viewpoints on Colleges admitting students of color and the teaching of topics in race, gender and class ( Wikipedia is not a soapbox).”
I deeply resent your insinuation that I oppose admitting “students of color” (where oh where did you find that phrase?).  Though my personal opinions shouldn’t be the topic, since you’ve brought them up, I am very proud of this country when I see that previously oppressed minorities are occupying the very highest positions of power, and have gotten there on merit.  When “diversity” is achieved through racial preferences, I’m not so proud.  Though I appreciate the argument from social peace, and that from previous lack of opportunity. I don’t think they merit institutionalized racial bias. That’s hardly an extreme point of view - in Oxy’s home state of California, it is the majority viewpoint as expressed by popuar referendum, and UC has been forced to end (officially at least) such practices.  Nevertheless, it doesn’t bother me all that much.
However, code words such as “diverse” are POV, evasive and uniformative.
"For example, on March 14 2006, you added the following statement to the Selectivity and Reputation section of the article: "The school takes pride in its relatively large representation of ethnic minorites in its student body, many of whom are admitted despite failing to meet the academic standards required of non-minority students" I can't believe you wrote that with the intention of making this article neutral! You have a very skewed notion about what is acceptable and unbiased on wikipedia. How could anyone constue that statment as neutral? Do you have a source for such information (as if one even exists!)? Asedzie 20:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV on Occidental College Multiculturalism

message: I have started a new section we can collaborate on to offer pertinent information about controversial issues that were brought up in the Multiculturalism debate above. I do realize that my wording in this section may be somewhat POV, please correct as needed. Please try to keep information in this section factual, specific and cited with verifiable sources. Also, user: Timothy Usher, please add citations to the articles or websites that you mentioned earlier on problems with Occidental College's admissions policy (You wrote above, "Are you seriously asking me to back up the assertion that Oxy considers racial preferences in admission?  If so, I will take some time out to produce it".) I think this would really bring balance to this part of the new section. I could only find an evidence that showed the opposite. I hope this helps in resolving some of these debates!Asedzie 21:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Section To Address Concerns About Multiculturalism

message: Eliminated "Notable Professors" section which was over-the-top selective promotion of individual faculty, and not an accurate reflection of the overall quality of faculty. Other wikipedia entries for respectable liberal arts colleges do not have such a section. --Ignat 17:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable Professors

message: I have re-added Kathy Augustine to the "Notable Oxy Alumni" list following the unexplained deletion of her name by User:Ignat. According to one of the sources I used to create the article on her, she is a graduate of Occidental College. --TommyBoy 19:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed alums w/o articles from the list. This doesn't, however, mean that everyone with an article is notable. MrVibrating (talk) 07:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kathy Augustine

message: Is it just me or are all of the "[edit]" links on the page bunched up under the "Free Speech and Civil Rights" section? Hopefully someone can fix (or explain) this. N1000 17:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit Links

message: As wikipedia's standards for citing sources get ever tighter, articles like this become problematic because there are no sources proffered to establish that all these alums actually went to Occidental.-Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 17:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Occidental's page is pretty weak compared to other colleges of its size and stature.  It could definitely use more picture and more information about its history and buildings.  Is there any way to do this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jkfp2004 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did as best I could to expand this article. Hope it's alright. Notecardforfree 23:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just started working on this overhaul. Main issue now is fixing broken links. Would appreciate help! :) Retrospector87 (talk) 21:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete Overhaul 

message: What is the Latin name of the school? Because "Occidental" by itself only means Western, not "heart". Second, I am curious how diverse the school's offerings are - I attend the School of Oriental and African Studies which is quite intentionally *not* a school of Occidental (Western) studies. Does Oxy cover Eastern topics? LordAmeth 12:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are quite right about Occidental's Latin name. I was misinformed when I wrote the introduction and have since corrected the error. The school offers a wide range of studies, both of the west and of the east. One of the school's goals is to create a cross-cultural awareness and perspective for its students. Incidentally, the school's motto is "Occident Proximus Orient." Hope that was of some help. Notecardforfree 19:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I was just curious. ^_^ LordAmeth 22:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But what is the Latin name?  And what does "West of the Now" mean?12.214.62.215 (talk) 04:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That motto, Occidens Proximus Orienti means "The West is nearest the East", according to their website. And because the article makes a claim about a Latin name with nothing to back it up, I zapped it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Occidental" 

message: This article suffers from promotionalism -- it reads like a brochure from beginning to end.  See the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_peacock_terms for what to avoid and how to avoid it.
Also, it seems to contain somewhat trivial, nonencyclopediac information, such as the detailed description of the curriculum -- there's nothing particularly noteworthy I see in that. Ex0pos (talk) 23:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added the "Peacock" tag... 

message: It has been asserted that Obama is not an alumni of Occidental.  That is simply not true--numerous sources acknowledge his alumni status at Occidental, chief among them the Los Angeles Times, one of the nation's most respected newspapers.
Purplebackpack89 (talk) 05:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debate over Obama's Alumni status 

message: Why do people keep deleting it?  I, for one, feel that it's important enough to be in the opener, which is meant to be a summary of the entire article, INCLUDING topics covered in other sections.  Comments? Purplebackpack89 (talk) 21:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obama in the opener 

message: I find it difficult to classify a college that is ranked 33rd and 86th respectively in two polls as being one of the "top" colleges.  There have obviously been several notable people that have attended, but this school didn't even make the Top 20 in a poll of only Liberal Arts colleges in the United States, and 88th overall?  That isn't exactly "exclusive", and this needs to be reworded. SeanNovack (talk) 19:20, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in the top 100. ;) But we should avoid academic boosterism. See Wikipedia:College and university article guidelines for suggestions on how articles like this should look.   Will Beback  talk   20:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In examining the article more closely it really did appear to be written by the recruiting department for the school.  I have removed some of the more flowery rhetoric and corrected the poll to state that it is tied for 36th place on the Liberal Arts College list, instead of "33rd".  I'll take look at it when I have more leisure and try to even everything out. Thanks! SeanNovack (talk) 20:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rankings and reputation 

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thread_title: File:Jack Kemp - Library of Congress, Congressional Portrait Collection.gif Nominated for Deletion

message: All information from KOXY has been merged into this article, per the merge result of the AfD discussion located at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/KOXY. Northamerica1000(talk) 05:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger complete 

message: I'm User:Edgewood2048 and I work at Occidental College. Because it appears that the Occidental page hasn't been significantly updated since January 2015, I'd like to propose some updates, but I want to make sure that I follow WP:COI and gather as much consensus for these changes as possible. So I'm posting my proposals here to solicit input.
=== Fact Box ===
Dean: Wendy Sternberg (Sternberg officially starts July 1, 2017, succeeding interim dean Kerry Thompson.) Source: http://www.oxy.edu/news/union-colleges-sternberg-named-dean-college Retrieved 14 June 2017
Chairman of the Board of Trustees: Susan Mallory '76. Source: http://www.oxy.edu/board-trustees. Retrieved 14 June 2017.
Students: 2,062 (Fall 2016) Source: Common Data Set 2016-17 http://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/IRAP/Common-Dataset_2016-2017_revised.pdf Retrieved 14 June 2017.
Undergraduates: 2,062 (Fall 2016) ibid. Retrieved 13 June 2017
=== Introduction ===
Update this sentence in 2nd paragraph: The New York Times ranked Occidental No. 28 on its 2017 list of the most economically diverse U.S. colleges and universities. Source: . retrieved 13 June 2017.
Update source for the Carnegie Classification: http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/lookup/srp.php?clq=%7B%22eng2005_ids%22%3A%221%22%7D&limit=150,50&orderby=sortname&start_page=standard.php. Retrieved 13 June 2017.
Update these 2 sentences in the 3rd paragraph:
Occidental is also one of the most racially diverse liberal arts colleges, with 42% of the student body identifying as students of color. Source: http://www.oxy.edu/admission-aid/apply/admission-facts Retrieved 14 June 2017. Alternate source: http://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/IRAP/Common-Dataset_2016-2017_revised.pdf Retrieved 14 June 2017.
The college is ranked No. 7 for liberal arts colleges and No. 17 for all undergraduate schools on Payscale.com's 2016-17 list of highest-paid graduates. Source: http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors#fullText Retrieved 14 June 2017.
=== History ===
Substitute new source for this sentence: In April 1917, shortly after the United States entered World War I, the college formed a Students Army Training Corps to aid the war effort. Source: “Life During Wartime,” Occidental Magazine, Spring 2017, http://www.oxy.edu/magazine/spring-2017/life-during-wartime Retrieved 13 June 2017.
=== Academics ===
Update first sentence: There are 34 majors offered on campus (and 9 minor-only programs, including Public Health, Linguistics, and Classical Studies) and a 10:1 student-faculty ratio. [Computer Science will be offered as a major beginning Fall 2017.]
Update second paragraph: The 2017 edition of the Fiske Guide to Colleges gave Occidental four-star ratings (out of five) in academics and quality of life. [Source: Fiske, Edward (2017), Fiske Guide to Colleges 2017, pp. 529-531.] Princeton Review's The Best 381 Colleges 2017 Edition gave Occidental ratings of 91 (out of 100) in academics and quality of life and 95 in financial aid. [Source: https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings?rankings=best-381-colleges, Retrieved 13 June 2017] In Forbes 2017 ranking of America's Top Colleges, Occidental ranks 99th. [Source: https://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/94/colleges-09_Americas-Best-Colleges_Rank.html, Retrieved 13 June 2017] In U.S. News & World Report's 2017 rankings of American liberal arts colleges, Occidental is ranked 44th. [Updated source:https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges, Retrieved 14 June 2017. The 2014 and 2017 rankings are identical.] Kiplinger's Best College Values 2016 places Occidental 58th among liberal arts colleges. [Source: http://www.kiplinger.com/tool/college/T014-S001-kiplinger-s-best-values-in-private-colleges/index.php?table=lib_arts, Retrieved 14 June 2017]
=== Athletics ===
Add new third paragraph, incorporating material from what is now the fifth and final paragraph of this section:
Occidental athletics date back to 1894, when the College helped organize the first intercollegiate athletic competition in Southern California. [Source: Rolle,  Andrew (1986) Occidental College: A Centennial History, p. 14] Since then, Oxy has produced more than a dozen Olympians, world-record holders, and national champions, including two-time diving gold medalist Sammy Lee '43, [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sammy_Lee_(diver) ] pole vault silver medalist Bob Gutowski '57,  and Pat Henry Yeomans ’38, the 1935 national girls’ tennis champion. Famous Occidental College Tigers include NFL coach Jim E. Mora, former American Football League Most Valuable Player and politician Jack Kemp '57, former NFL player Vance Mueller '86, 2011 U.S. Senior Open Champion Olin Browne '81, CFL player Justin Goltz '09 (Winnipeg Blue Bombers).
=== Sexual assault complaints ===
Edit the first sentence and add source: A Federal civil rights complaint was filed in April 2013 by 37 current and former students stating that the school "deliberately discouraged victims from reporting sexual assaults” as well as misled some students about their rights during campus investigations and possibly retaliated against whistle-blowers. [Source: "Activists accuse colleges of not responding to sexual assault cases," Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2013; http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-colleges-face-investigations-over-handling-of-rape-allegations-20130522-story.html, Retrieved 14 June 2017.] 
Remove the next sentence: This complaint is currently under active investigation by the Federal Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights.
Edit the third sentence: On September 18, 2013, the Los Angeles Times reported that the college reached a settlement with 10 former and current students who also alleged improper handling of their sexual assault cases, on undisclosed terms. [Sources remain unchanged; this edit makes clear, as does the cited LA Times story, that the settlement was reached before a lawsuit was filed.]
Insert new paragraph: On June 9, 2016, the Office of Civil Rights announced it had concluded its investigation of the April 2013 complaint against Occidental. “Based on the factual information gathered to date during the investigation of this case and applying Title IX statutory and regulatory principles, OCR concluded that the preponderance of the evidence does not support a conclusion that the College violated Title IX, except with respect to the issue of promptness in several cases during the 2012-13 school years,”  Laura Faer, OCR chief attorney, wrote in a 30-page letter to Occidental President Jonathan Veitch summarizing the findings of the investigation.  [Source: https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/more/09132264-a.pdf, retrieved 13 June 2017] According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, as of June 13, 2017 there were 335 open OCR investigations of alleged Title IX violations at colleges and universities. Occidental’s case is one of 62 resolved since the OCR signaled stricter enforcement of Title IX in April 2011. [Source: "Title IX: Tracking Sexual Assault Investigations,” Chronicle of Higher Education, https://projects.chronicle.com/titleix/?cid=UCHESIDENAV2, retrieved June 13, 2017]
Add sentence to final paragraph of this section: According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, there is not currently an open Office of Civil Rights investigation into this complaint. [Source: https://projects.chronicle.com/titleix/campus/Occidental-College/, Retrieved June 14, 2017.]
Edgewood2048 (talk) 19:57, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have partially implemented this request. I'm still unsure about the History section, but I can leave that to regulars of this article if they are interested. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 22:34, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed updates 

message: Edit the first sentence and add source: A Federal civil rights complaint was filed in April 2013 by 37 current and former students stating that the school "deliberately discouraged victims from reporting sexual assaults” as well as misled some students about their rights during campus investigations and possibly retaliated against whistle-blowers. [Source: "Activists accuse colleges of not responding to sexual assault cases," Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2013; http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-colleges-face-investigations-over-handling-of-rape-allegations-20130522-story.html, Retrieved 14 June 2017.] 
Remove the next sentence: This complaint is currently under active investigation by the Federal Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights.
Edit the third sentence: On September 18, 2013, the Los Angeles Times reported that the college reached a settlement with 10 former and current students who also alleged improper handling of their sexual assault cases, on undisclosed terms. [Sources remain unchanged; this edit makes clear, as does the cited LA Times story, that the settlement was reached before a lawsuit was filed.]
Insert new paragraph: On June 9, 2016, the Office of Civil Rights announced it had concluded its investigation of the April 2013 complaint against Occidental. “Based on the factual information gathered to date during the investigation of this case and applying Title IX statutory and regulatory principles, OCR concluded that the preponderance of the evidence does not support a conclusion that the College violated Title IX, except with respect to the issue of promptness in several cases during the 2012-13 school years,”  Laura Faer, OCR chief attorney, wrote in a 30-page letter to Occidental President Jonathan Veitch summarizing the findings of the investigation.  [Source: https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/more/09132264-a.pdf, retrieved 13 June 2017] According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, as of June 13, 2017 there were 335 open OCR investigations of alleged Title IX violations at colleges and universities. Occidental’s case is one of 62 resolved since the OCR signaled stricter enforcement of Title IX in April 2011. [Source: "Title IX: Tracking Sexual Assault Investigations,” Chronicle of Higher Education, https://projects.chronicle.com/titleix/?cid=UCHESIDENAV2, retrieved June 13, 2017]
Add sentence to final paragraph of this section: According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, there is not currently an open Office of Civil Rights investigation into this complaint. [Source: https://projects.chronicle.com/titleix/campus/Occidental-College/, Retrieved June 14, 2017.]
Edgewood2048 (talk) 19:57, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have partially implemented this request. I'm still unsure about the History section, but I can leave that to regulars of this article if they are interested. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 22:34, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexual assault complaints 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Occidental College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151109231238/http://www.naicu.edu/member_center/members.asp to http://www.naicu.edu/member_center/members.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120519135727/http://alumni.oxy.edu/s/956/index.aspx?pgid=410&gid=1 to http://alumni.oxy.edu/s/956/index.aspx?pgid=410&gid=1
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.oxy.edu/x2363.xml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160821213346/http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges to http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:38, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Edgewood2048 here -- still an employee of Occidental College. I'd like to propose a small addition to the second paragraph of the introduction, to reflect the recent announcement of the Barack Obama Scholars program. Following the second sentence regarding the New York Times ranking, add: In September 2017, the college announced its Barack Obama Scholars program to provide four-year scholarships for top students of all backgrounds who “are committed to the public good.” Nick Anderson, “New Occidental College scholarships honor school’s most famous student: Barack Obama,” Washington Post, October 26, 2017, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/10/26/new-occidental-college-scholarships-honor-its-most-famous-student-barack-obama/? Retrieved Nov. 6, 2017.
Thanks for your help.
Edgewood2048 (talk) 06:06, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obama Scholars update