Talk:Carlos Gardel

message: Should the blog Gardel En Fotos be used in the Carlos Gardel article? It has been inserted to support the statement that Gardel's birth is still controversial. Binksternet (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That blog was written in 2008, it's outdated with the recent discovery of his French birth certificate Cambalachero (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC: Gardel photographs in blog 

message: User:Zorzaluruguay has been adding text and images taken from a blog. The three images are shown here on the right. The purpose is to increase the focus on the notional Uruguayan birth of Gardel rather than the more reliably sourced French birth. I have repeatedly removed these changes per WP:RS and WP:NOR. Just today I removed all the blogs, no matter what they said, pro or con.
So what sources do we have? It turns out there have been some good books and scholarly articles written. The first source that is currently used in the article is from UNESCO's Courier, a peer-reviewed scholarly journal. Luis Bocaz says that the evidence is stronger for Toulouse, France, as Gardel's birthplace.
*Bocaz, Luis (March 1986). "Tango Time", UNESCO Courier, p. 11.
Other sources:
*Carlos Gardel: a la luz de la historia, by Nelson Bayardo and José Pedro Rilla. Biografías Aguilar, 2000. . (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
*Carlos Gardel: el resplandor y la sombra, by Carlos Zinelli. Corregidor, 1987. (In Spanish.) This book discusses Toulouse and Tacuarembó.
*Vida y milagros de Carlos Gardel, by Nelson Bayardo. Ediciones La República, 1988. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
*The Life, Music, and Times of Carlos Gardel, by Simon Collier. University of Pittsburgh Press, 1986. . This book describes the Toulouse birth and subsequent actions of Gardel's mother.
*more to come... Binksternet (talk) 00:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia follows its own WP:Neutral point of view policy, a core content guide that must be followed. The NPOV policy "means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." The first thing to notice in that policy is "proportionately", which tells us to give the proper proportion to conflicting theories. The Uruguay theory exists, but it is described and dismissed by so many of the Gardel biographers. The main body of Gardel scholars accepts that he was born in Toulouse, France. The second thing to notice is the part about "published by reliable sources". We will give a detailed account of the Uruguay theory by referring to reliable sources published about the Uruguay theory. We will not argue the case here, nor will we lay out all the evidence in an artificially neutral manner. The two theories are not equal, so allowing them equal coverage would be wrong. Binksternet (talk) 14:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

text: You are welcome to bring information to the article. At some point, the amount of information devoted to Uruguay as a birthplace will cross a threshold of undue weight, and any further information will be removed. That threshold is a judgment call—I am leaning toward severity but others might be more lenient. No matter what changes you make, the article will always need to tell the reader that the mainstream opinion of scholars is that Gardel, informally called "El francesito" (Frenchie) by his barra (group of male friends), was born in France. WP:NPOV requires no less. Binksternet (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

text: You have not proven your point. You have not shown a long list of books saying Gardel was born in Uruguay. Binksternet (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birthplace: original research or book sources? 

message: The article says "for unknown reasons he laid a false trail about his birthplace beginning in 1920 when he was almost 30" and "there is no agreement regarding why he took these steps" (i.e. saying that he was born in Tacuarembó). I think it is worth the mention that the opinion of the majority of the scholars is that he did that to avoid being forced to join the military for France, in WWI. The latest book, which confirms his French nationality (link in section "Birth certificate" right up this section), acknowledges this. --Nazroon (talk) 15:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Binksternet (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tacuarembo steps 

message: Is "Origin" necessary in the Info Box? Is this a legitimated category? Is this a common category? Tapered (talk) 00:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: See :Template:Infobox musical artist. The "origin" parameter is commonly used to show the difference between where a singer was born and where he first became famous. Gardel is a prime example of someone who did not become famous in the place where he was born. Binksternet (talk) 01:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: "Origin"

message: I know about the controversy about Gardel's nationality. At least include the fact that there is a Carlos Gardel´s Museum in Uruguay with documents, including his birth certificate that proves that he was born in Uruguay. Does it make any sense?
http://www.tacuarembodigital.com.uy/gardeliana_museo.html Tacuarembo Digital.com.uy You can see the photographs of the documents that proves his Uruguayan origin.
I know many people have visited the museum and seen the documents. Do you want me to upload a photograph of his birth certificate in commons? 
User:Roxyuru  —Preceding undated comment added 03:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The certificate on display in Uruguay is not original, not written when he was born. Gardel obtained a new birth certificate in 1920 when he was beginning to get famous, when he was thinking about touring France as a tango singer. Binksternet (talk) 04:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: He also misses the point that Gardel's own trusted attorney released Gardels' statement about his birth and later historians verified it with the corroborating birth certificate in France. There is also an entire section in the article reviewing the controversy. It doesn't need to have an edit war. MartinezMD (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Go to the first source 

message: In Ernesto Mallo's crime novel Needle in a Haystack, set in the 1970s, the protagonist, when asked if someone is dead, replies "As dead as Gardel".  Is this a frase hecha in Argentine Spanish, or is just a bit of noirism?   Diomedea Exulans (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "As dead as Gardel"

message: The DNI of Carlos Gardel in Argentina said that Gardel was Born in Tacuarembó in December 11 of 1887, and have his fingerprint, this is the articule that Martina Iguñez from Argentina show the DNI http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/polemica-exhiben-cedula-carlos-gardel.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiis2010 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you read the entire talk page above this section? Much of the information is discredited as coming long after his birth. For now the UNESCO source is considered the most reliable.MartinezMD (talk) 14:33, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argentinian DNI said Gardel was Uruguayan born in Tacuarembó 

message: Hola buenas tardes le pido porfavor que quité que Gardel es argentino nonlo es es uruguayo y ay pruebas de su nacimiento en Uruguay.  Lucio259 (talk) 19:50, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but the Uruguayan evidence is false, and the French evidence is fully established. Binksternet (talk) 21:06, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: [En español: Lo siento mucho, pero la evidencia uruguaya es falsa, y la evidencia francesa está completamente establecida.] Por favor, lea la sección "Birthplace controversy".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Gardel is Uruguayan not Argentine

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: This message is to inform interested editors of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding the birthplace of Gardel. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. Any editors are welcome to add themselves as a party, and you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "Carlos Gardel".  Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 07:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The editor who opened the DR has not been responsive, so the DR case is being closed and an RFC will be opened in a few minutes. Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 23:10, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: There is a case at the DRN regarding this page.

message: The account of Gardel's death mentions several others who were on the plane with him.  There is, however, no mention of the other plane and the deaths that occurred there.  A total of seventeen persons died, including Lester W. Strauss, an American mining engineer on that other plane.  <The New York Times, June 25, 1935, p. 1>  The indifference of the account of Gardel's death to those on the other plane whose lives were also lost is unfortunate and warrants correction by persons able to add some account of them.  [Lester W. Strauss, I should say, was my grandfather; my father Simon D. Strauss learned of his death in the Times, reading it on Broadway; it is not that he, specially, warrants mention, but attention to the deaths on only one plane, as it no others were worthy of mention, is unfortunate] Plsathome (talk) 13:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The involvement of a second plane is clearly relevant to the article. As for who should be mentioned in the article, that is strictly an issue of notability WP:NOTE. I just got Collier's book and will be reading it to see what it mentions as well. MartinezMD (talk) 01:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  There was a second plane 

message: Carlos Gardel was actually born in Tacuarembó Uruguay. It was proven by finding his birth certificate which said he was born in Uruguay. 2800:A4:16FD:E800:78B9:75FC:9FA2:5588 (talk) 23:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. This entire talk page seems to be dedicated to this topic so far, edit requests aren't for controversial changes, and we need reliable sources for this, which so far have not surfaced. If you have one, feel free to include it here.  ASUKITE 23:39, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2021 

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thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion 

message: Carlos gardel was born in tacuarembò uruguay and we have documents to prove it ! This wikipedia is false , you should say the truth and this is not. 2A00:23EE:1430:607E:A05A:1583:18F0:3459 (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been much discussion of this at Talk:Carlos Gardel/Archive 1 & above on this page. You have provided no documents. Without verification from reliable sources, you might as well spit into the wind. If you , then please provide them. Peaceray (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong 

message: Change Carlos Gardel was a french born argentine singer to Carlos Gardel was a Uruguayan singer as stated by multiple books with supporting evidence such as Gardel es uruguayo bayardo. 2800:AC:4023:A6F:8131:A895:6881:30FA (talk) 18:48, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: No. This has been asked and answered numerous times. Read above in the talk page and archive. MartinezMD (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2023 

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message: Some sources call him a tenor, many call him a baritone, and one or two sources describe him as a combination, commenting on his wide range.
*Edmundo E. Eichelbaum's 1985 book Carlos Gardel says, "Con un caudal de voz más bien reducido , emplea con sumaria habilidad el falsete. (With a rather reduced volume of voice, he uses the falsetto with great skill.) "Carlos Gardel es un tenor que se acerca al barítono." (Carlos Gardel is a tenor close to baritone.) "Su registro es mucho más amplio, porque puede llegar desde el contralto (en falsete) hasta notas bien graves." (His range is much broader, because it can come from alto in falsetto to very low notes.)
*Simon Collier in The Life, Music, and Times of Carlos Gardel (1986), wrote in a footnote on page 315 that Gardel's New York radio appearances were announced as "Carlos Gardel – baritone." Collier notes on page 155 that Gardel's voice teacher, Eduardo Bonessi, described Gardel as having "a brilliant baritone register" with a range of two octaves. Throughout the book, Collier describes Gardel as a baritone.
*Eliseo Alvarez wrote in Carlos Gardel: biografía autorizada (1995) that Gardel had "cuerdas vocales de excepción que le permitían, siendo barítono extenderse a registros propios de un tenor o un bajo." (Exceptional vocal cords that allowed him, being a baritone, to extend to registers typical of a tenor or a bass.) See page 71.
*Harry Milkewitz wrote in Psicología Del Tango (1964) that Gardel's range stretched from "tenor a barítono, canta con un afrancesado 'vibratto', con una impostación densa, y un fraseo lento y modulado..." (Tenor to baritone, singing with a French 'vibrato', with a dense delivery, and a slow and modulated phrasing..."
I don't think we can fairly represent Gardel by just saying "tenor". Binksternet (talk) 13:28, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. How about using your own edit summary and say He was known for his rich voice, described as "tenor close to baritone", and dramatic phrasing. MartinezMD (talk) 16:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Good suggestion. Before I saw your response, I threw in a similar solution describing him variously as a baritone or tenor because of his wide vocal range. See which one works better. Binksternet (talk) 19:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: this works fine for me. No objection. MartinezMD (talk) 01:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tenor or baritone? Both?