Talk:Tom Stone (magician)

message: I got the following message from Krash:
*I just wanted to advise that it's considered bad form to edit articles about yourself (see WP:VAIN). Wikipedia has lately seen a number of vanity articles written about magicians and I don't want anything you're trying to do be viewed as bad faith.
and
*I'm not questioning the verifiability or notability as I checked out the sources the same day the article was created. I'm just saying that someone who didn't agree with you could use the vanity point to construct a strawman/red herring in an attempt to discredit your editing and/or motives.
::Unfortunately Krash is right. After checking the references provided, I found that this  technically is a vanity article, since I wrote it myself. However, I'm a bit reluctant to delete it, as I also, from an objective stance, consider me to have notability within my field. That, of course, might also be vanity speaking. Therefore, I'm raising the warning flags myself, to alert people that this article might be biased, and possibly should be deleted if deemed unimportant. --TStone 04:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Page updated.  :)  Please review it and let us know if you'd like any further changes, by posting here. And, welcome! Elonka 10:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment from subject's talk page 

message: *"Too Perfect Imperfect"October 2001 Theoretical piece where I refute Rick Johnson's famous "Too Perfect Theory".
*"Aquatic Duel"July 2000 A more light-hearted creation: Russian Roulette with water pistols :-)
I published around 12-13 creations in Genii magazine during the 90's when Erika Larsen was editor, but I don't think they have the contents from those issues on the internet
A couple of things from Magic magazine:
*http://www.magicmagazine.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2&sort=2d&page=6  Sept 1996
*http://www.magicmagazine.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2&sort=2d&page=2  Jun 2003
*http://www.magicmagazine.com/april04/april04contents.html April 2004
And here is NTV's own listing of participants in the big show that was aired on the japanese new years eve. Is there an auto-translation from japanese, or perhas get assistance from japanese wiki? Would be nice to know if the title they gave me was correct :-)
*http://www.ntv.co.jp/supertv/01_week_contents/050103/this_week/toi.html
And commentary from someone who saw the show:
*http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001358
Also, I just remembered that I'm apparantly listed at the end of James Randis encyclopedia "Conjuring" from 1992, as one of the future stars in magic, listed as "Tom Bengtsson". I have not seen this myself, but it was Randi who told me about it, so it might be true. --TStone 04:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More works 

message: I've found a few pages from my first visit to Japan in 1999, when I was booked at Ton Onosaka's 
"Magic Friends Convention".
This seems to be a review of two booklets of mine that had been translated into japanese. And here I'm just hanging out with Max Maven. (Btw. It was here I got booked to FISM the following year).--TStone 03:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japan 

message: There should not be article on such magician like Tom Stone. 
He is entertainer like many artists like cabaret singers, circus acts from many circuses and also even very successful strip tease artists. Nobody will think to agree that these other artists who are paid by public or even they know and are appreciated by their colleague professionals should have article in encyclopaedia.
Also I can do a search with Yahoo or MSN or Google and only this article which is written also by Tom Stone comes in first page of search results. So it is obvious Mr. Stone is using your encyclopaedia like an advertisement for himself.
Mr. Stone's magic is what all magicians do. He is the same category as any magician who is professional and makes tricks in the hotels, for children's parties or also dinner parties or even conferences. I have seen how Mr. Stone refers to himself in the article as being an 'original magician'.
The most interesting information is the video clip of Mr. Stone from a Japanese programme with 5 close up magicians. If magicians review this video they will see that there are not any original ideas. Most amazing is that the two items he receives most clapping for are one effect which magician from Belgium Carlos Vaquera made very famous by performing at International Magic Convention in London when he won first prize maybe 20 years ago. There is a video of this performance by Carlos where he shows a coin seem to rise up in the air from his hand and be received by the other hand about 45 centimeters higher. I can see that Mr. Stone has won second prize in this competition many years after. Then in the Japan video Mr. Stone presents two cups and balls magic. But almost all the strong points are from ideas from my uncle Tommy Wonder from 20 years before. 
Here is the video of my uncle to compare: http://youtube.com/watch?v=MJ6qT8JvaMY Here now is the video of Tom Stone to compare: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0KDriiutF4k
Mr. Stone has tried to make some reputation as a performing magician - but he has stolen ideas from my uncle and from my uncle's friend Carlos Vaquera and is passing these off as his own creations. This is not ethical and he does not mention in any place that his most popular magic is based on the magic of these much more superior magicians. 
I also ask the question: Tommy Wonder and Carlos Vaquera are very great magicians; one of them, my uncle, is dead. But they have very little article about them in this encyclopaedia. I do not think in any case Mr. Stone will dare to insult them by writing about them. But if you enter their names on a search engine you will see that they are giants in magic - and by comparison Mr. Stone does not deserve any mention.
Carlos Vaquera has more than 20,000 unique Google entries and is a big star with the public in Belgium. Tommy Wonder has more than 40,000 entries and is dead. No person in general public knows about Tom Stone by comparison (I stress by comparison). Also, many general newspapers have written about Vaquera and Wonder - they are considered important and good magicians by this more important standard of unconnected media which can not be controlled by small circles of magicians who write about each other and make each other 'famous' that way in their internet blogs and also magic magazines.
I loved my uncle Tommy because he was completely original. Completely. I also know Carlos Vaquera from 20 years ago when i was a small child - he is a perfomer who is in a different standard to Mr. Stone. Carlos is a world class personality. With all respect to Mr. Stone he may have to make his profession from selling magic tricks to people and needs for companies to pay him to entertain their parties and so on. But there are 20 Mr. Stones in most cities in America and also europe; it is ridiculous if they will all have articles because they are 'professional'. 
This encyclopaedia should not be used by Mr. Stone to untruthfully support his suggestion that he is an important magician or that he is famous because of original magic; as I show with Vaquera and Tommy Mr. Stone is only doing copy of their best magic. 
There are many not famous magicians who are better magicians and are really original compared to Mr. stone but they are not with his big ego and active with internet. Even many magicians who copy other magicians do this better than Mr. Stone. 
But more important the public must not think this is a magician who has an article in an encylopaedia because he is special. There is nothing special or notable about Mr. Stone compared to many other magicians like Tommy and Carlos who deserve bigger articles. So Mr. Stone should not be permitted by the encylopaedia to give him such big publicity.
Jan Antwerpmagic 02:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether I'm notable or not is a question for others, but I really must object to your hostility. Tommy was a very good friend, and I've had nothing but a pleasant conversation with Carlo Vaquera. It was Tommy who in 1995 booked me to a convention in Amsterdam, after watching me perform in Sweden, performing - yes - the cups and balls, and gave me both compliments and suggestions for further developement. When I eventually made an instruction-DVD, Tommy gave me a quote for the cover saying: -"Tom is one of the most creative magicians here in Europe. His work is always stimulating and worthy of attention." Murphys magic, and as Tommy had integrity, he would never have said something like that if he didn't really mean it. In 2002 I arranged for Tommy to give a 5-day workshop in Sweden, as well as bringing him here again in 2003. To help me realise a few of my ideas, Tommy did not only engage in intensive brainstorming, but also gave me his old lathe and other tools. He also contributed articles to my magazine "Dr. Faustus Journal". Feel free to check with Carlos Vaquera, Gaetan Bloom, Flip, Tonny Van Rhee, Dan LaFey or Dick Koornwinder for reference. The gift of the lathe were even referenced in Tommy's obituary in a Dutch newspaper, as an example of how supportive he was when he liked a person's ideas. I also said my final farewell to Tommy at Tommy's site.TStone (talk) 04:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I feel I should comment on this: Most amazing is that the two items he receives most clapping for are one effect which magician from Belgium Carlos Vaquera made very famous by performing at International Magic Convention in London when he won first prize maybe 20 years ago. There is a video of this performance by Carlos where he shows a coin seem to rise up in the air from his hand and be received by the other hand about 45 centimeters higher. I can see that Mr. Stone has won second prize in this competition many years after. The item you refer to is The Muscle Pass by John Cornelius, from whom both I and Carlos has learnt it. It is not an effect, but a kind of skill demonstration or a gag. The japanese video clip is not really representative for my work, as I chosed material that wouldn't lose much in translation. The competition you mention - it was there I met Carlos Vaquera, as he entered in the same competition. I found him to be a pleasant and warm person. We both entered for fun, I happened to come second and Carlos came fifth. It could easily have become the other way around TStone (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

text: This is incredible but a person who is supporting this article the most after Tom Stone is Elonka Dunin who is like Mr. Stone responsible for the most part for the existence of an article about herself.
This is very bad. I must be of course naive but how can this be responsible if people organise to support each other to have articles. Dunin is the main supporter for this article about Tom Stone but she has also open with being vain to have been making an article about herself.
This is really terrible. Antwerpmagic 03:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are not well informed at all, if you are swedish and do not know about the magazines Dr. Faustus Journal, Enigma, Tricks, Trollkarlen or any other scandinavian magic publication. Had you been well informed, you would have known that I've created performance pieces that now are in the repertoire of almost all magicians in scandinavia. Check with any european magician you can find (use the Yellow Pages) for reference. Or, ask any magician in the world to name a swedish magician, and he will only know two names - Lennart Green is the other. And I feel that you don't have a clue on who Lennart is either.TStone (talk) 04:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Whether or not you have personally heard of someone, are not the guidelines for notability here.  I do not know Stone personally, but he is well-known within the industry, as is confirmed by references in multiple secondary publications.  Please see Wikipedia:Notability for more information on Wikipedia guidelines in this regard. --Elonka 16:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When I do a search I find plenty of references to him in established magic publications, some of which are cited in the article (I'm not advocating search hits as a measure of notability - just saying that they help find supporting references).  Maybe Stone is not the world's most famous magician, and certainly not known outside the magic community like Copperfield, Blane etc., but he does seem to have some respect within the magic trade - including as a publisher of original material (magic is a small sector and so a lot of significant material is self-published). I could understand calls for deletion if he was just a local magician trying to use Wikipedia as an advert, but he is above that level and the article does not read like the clumsy PR speak that usually qualifies for rapid deletion. I really can't understand why Coolaid4u and Antwerpmagic2 are so hostile to this article. If you think other magicians, such as Tommy Wonder or Carlos Vaquera, are more deserving of coverage then why not just go expand the Tommy Wonder article or start one on Carlos? Circusandmagicfan 17:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  To clarify, under the principle of WP:AGF:  Please do not assume that because there is a longer article about Tom Stone, that this somehow means that he is more important than other magicians.  As a whole, Wikipedia articles about anything magic-related are fairly weak.  There are many notable magicians who should have bios, who don't have bios yet. Part of this is because of the secrecy of the industry, and the difficulty in finding reliable sources for any but the most famous of the Vegas and television performers. And part of it is simply a lack of volunteers who are willing to work on magic-related articles. Antwerp and Coolaid, if you would like to help with this, we would love to have your assistance.  Please feel free to join Wikipedia:WikiProject Magic, where we are trying to create both a database of all the magic-related articles on Wikipedia, and also guidelines on how those articles are to be maintained.  As for Tommy Wonder, I agree that his article is very brief, and needs expansion. You are also correct, that there was no article on Carlos Vaquera, but I went ahead and created a stub page today: Carlos Vaquera.  As Circusandmagicfan indicated, please feel free to work on it. If nothing else, it would be helpful to (1) provide a list of sources (books and articles), which other editors can use to expand the bio; and (2) since it sounds like you know these individuals, it would be very helpful if you could provide a photo which we could use on the bio.  Best, Elonka 17:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay Okay. Mr. Stone is a very nice and creative man. We are all friends now and maybe you can make a page for me as reward? I am a graphic designer and have achieved important successes. Jan Antwerpmagic2 12:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tom Stone - not good enough magician for encylopaedia 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060513051121/http://www.tomstone.se/ to http://www.tomstone.se/
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051229002852/http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/katzkin/PUBFISM.htm to http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/katzkin/PUBFISM.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)