Talk:Gerundive/Archive 1

message: Ruakh: I like your rewrite of earlier today. I have adjusted the literal translation in the Tigrinya section and added to your in-line comment. Tigrinya tenses are said to be more aspect oriented, compared with more time-orientation in English. --Oryanw 21:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all your help; your e-mail, especially, was very helpful in sorting out the situation with Esperanto. It's very daunting to rewrite an article that's mostly about languages one doesn't speak (I know French and Spanish, but not Latin, Esperanto, or Tigrinya); I only hope people who know more about these languages will come put in their two cents! Ruakh 00:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tigrinya 

message: The relavent considerations for Tigrinya and related Semitic languages differ from those for the other languages already`discussed in the article. I think that the only relavent consideration is that "gerundive" is the well established name of a tense (referring to the recent or still relavent past), whch has the capacity to head subordinate clauses that are sometimes translated with adverbially used participles. Perhaps the name is inappropriate and should be changed, but I think that it is directly contrary to Wikipedia policy to attempt that here. Of course, Gingekerr is quite right that this "Gerundive tense" is not, and does not resemble, the older gerundives which I would describe most generally as: noun modifiers formed from verbs and carring a sense of mustness or appropriateness. (Am I ok there?)
Therefore, it seems to me that at least two distinct pheniomena go by the label gerundive, and both should be mentioned in any article headed gerundive --with at least a short descripton. If the discussion of Tigrinya "gerundives" were lengthy enough, it would merit going into a separate article. I don't know what the heading of that would be, unless perhaps Gerundive (Tiginya) or Gerundive (Ethiopic) or Gerundive (Semitic). (I don't know how widespread the Tigrinya-like usage is.) But so far I think the Tigrinya section is far too small for that. O'RyanW (☺ ₪) 03:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the Tigrinya section 

message: I thint the situation here is quite different from that in the Tigrinya section. Neither the term gerundive nor any of its buddies (gerondif, gerund, gerundial, gerundio, ...) is (in my experience) a commonly used, or well established, term for describing any part of Esperanto grammar. This gives the Esperanto section quite a different status. The Esperanto section adds completeness and interest to the article, but does not have the same presence-endam (;-)) as the Tigrinya one. The same reasoning applies any of the Esperanto candidate-gerundives that have been discussed.
Therefore, I think that (diectly contrary to the situation in the Tigrinya section) the only relavent consideration here is consistancy with (all?) the other sections, the primary one being of course Latin. The ending complexes, -enda and -inda attach only to (transitive) verb stems and form modifiers of nouns expressing mustness or worthyness. Thus, they resemble the Latin forms discussed in both sound and function:
*Kartago estas detruenda. -- must be destroyed.
*Drako dormanta neniam estas incitinda. -- is never worth teasing.
On this basis I am inclined to agree with Gingekerr to the extent of saying that I think it is legitimate to describe the resulting forms detruenda and incitinda as "gerundives" similar to Latin gerundives. I don't think that it is relavent that these forms are traditionally called adjectives: they modify nouns. I also don't think that it is relavent that they are not traditionally called participles: they are formed from verbs -- I think tradition maybe somewhat arbitrary here.
That leaves (participial) forms like vidinte (having seen) and vidante ([while] seeing). If these are to be called "gerundives", they are of a very different kind from -enda and -inda. This kind resembles most the French example. It resembles the Tigrinya example too, but the Tigrinya "gerundive" is a finit verb also capable of heading an independent clause.
In conclusion, I think that if the French (and Spanish) section is maintained as exemplifyinjg a second kind of "gerundive", then it is legitimate and possibly appropriate to suggest that Esperanto has this second kind of gerundive too. But if not, then probably not.
O'RyanW (☺ ₪) 04:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the Esperanto section 

message: Do I think the French and Spanish section belongs here? It is not clear to me how widespread the use of the term gerundive is for them. Perhaps, it should be maintained, but with an alert to the reader that some term other than gerundive would be more clear. However, I don't know what other term would be appropriate and less ambiguous. I think that would have to be answered before expelling the secton. O'RyanW (☺ ₪) 04:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the French and Spanish section 

message: I copied the external links here, provisionally leaving behind only some of those concerned with Latin, Tigrinya and the SIL French-English bilingual glossary. O'RyanW (☺ ₪) 17:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verbose list of annotated External links 

message: A gerundive is a modifier with verbal characteristics formed from a verb. It may consist of, or be similar to, a participle. There are two basic kinds of gerundive:
*the classical gerundive in Latin (or other languages with a similar modifier that modifies nouns and indicates necessity, worth, or fitness. This may be identical to, or similar to, present or future passive participles;
*the "gerund"-like gerundive which modifies a verb or clause, and indicates simultaneity. This may be identical to, or similar to, past or present active participles
=== Classical gerundives ===
==== In Latin ====
(the current section I suppose)
==== In Rigavedic ====
In Rigavedic the future passive participle is the gerundive, for example:  vac-ya- "to be said," kar-tva- "to be performed, done." See [link]
==== In Esperanto ====
The term gerundive is not normally used in Esperanto grammars. However, Esperanto does have two forms built on a verb stem which are similar in appearance, meaning, and use to the Latin examples above. 
(last version of the Esperanto section that discussed -enda and -inda)
=== "Gerund"-like gerudives === 
(Note: while it *might* be ok to eliminate the French, Spanish and Esperanto sections below, I don't think that it would be reasonable to do without the Tigrinya section. Unfortunately, the usage in the Tigrinya grammatical tradition is mysterious without mention of the usage of gerondif in French.)
 
These are not verbal nouns, as they are used adverbially, and may be gerund-like only in form.
==== In French and Spanish ====
(gerondif in French (??)
(gerundio in Spanish) (??)
==== In Esperanto ====
The active participles may bear an adverbial ending and be used like the French gerondif example above. (+current Esp. section)
They may also bear an adjective ending and be used like the Spanish gerundio above 
(+example)
==== In Tigrinya ====
(the present section)
O'RyanW (☺ ₪) 20:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A proposal to restructure the artcle 

message: (Note: while it *might* be ok to eliminate the French, Spanish and Esperanto sections below, I don't think that it would be reasonable to do without the Tigrinya section. Unfortunately, the usage in the Tigrinya grammatical tradition is mysterious without mention of the usage of gerondif in French.)
 
These are not verbal nouns, as they are used adverbially, and may be gerund-like only in form.
==== In French and Spanish ====
(gerondif in French (??)
(gerundio in Spanish) (??)
==== In Esperanto ====
The active participles may bear an adverbial ending and be used like the French gerondif example above. (+current Esp. section)
They may also bear an adjective ending and be used like the Spanish gerundio above 
(+example)
==== In Tigrinya ====
(the present section)
O'RyanW (☺ ₪) 20:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Gerund"-like gerudives 

message: (the present section)
O'RyanW (☺ ₪) 20:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Tigrinya 

message: So I decided to look up gérondif in the various French-only online dictionaries accessible from http://www.lexilogos.com/francais_langue_dictionnaires.htm. Most of the dictionaries there give two separate senses for the term, one for the Latin gerundive (to which one dictionary adds the Spanish gerundio), one for the French gérondif (which is generally en plus the present participle, though most of the dictionaries hasten to point out that the present participle alone can sometimes serve as a gérondif, and one mentions a past proposal to always refer to present participles as gérondifs). No dictionary that I can find makes any effort to link the two senses or imply that there's a general definition that could apply to other languages (the one that mentions Spanish ties this specifically to the Latin sense). I therefore don't think we can take for granted that the term gerundive applies to the French gérondif, but a case could potentially be made (on the basis of that one dictionary) for applying it to the Spanish gerundio.
Similarly, I looked up gerundio in the various Spanish dictionaries linked from http://cvc.cervantes.es/oteador/default.asp?l=2&id_rama=520&ct=catalogo88; they all pretty much give the definition of the Spanish gerundio, without stating whether gerundios are specifically a Spanish thing. (The definitions would all cover the French gérondif.) Since none of the definitions mentions Latin aside from giving the Latin word gerundium as the etymon of the Spanish word gerundio, this isn't an argument for counting French gérondifs or Spanish gerundios as gerundives, either.
Ruakh 05:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gérondif and gerundio