Talk:Dune (novel)/Archive 1

message: I've created a Dune universe article and have therefore removed that type of material from this article; which was serving as both a article on the novel and the universe. --ChrisG 22:20, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dune universe 

message: :Duplicated material from teaser synopsis for possible later merging:
Dune is the tale of a political conflict among three noble houses:  House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino, in the galactic Empire ruled by Shaddam IV of House Corrino, "Padishah Emperor of the Known Universe," at a time of great political instability.
House Corrino's power is supported by military might (their legions of 'Sardaukar' warrior-fanatics are a legendary force popularly considered unbeatable), economic power (they own a controlling stake in the CHOAM corporation, which oversees all interstellar commerce), and political influence, (support from the Spacing Guild, and the Bene Gesserit).  Shaddam IV, however, succeeded his father due to the influence and assistance of the Bene Gesserit and the tacit approval of the Guild, who now enjoy considerable influence over the throne.  
The political instability of the Emperor is exacerbated by the Bene Gesserit, who have prevented Shaddam IV from producing a male heir and ignited competition among the Great Houses while undermining the power of House Corrino.  Concurrently, their centuries-old breeding program to produce the Kwisatz Haderach is nearing fruition.
Shaddam IV sees House Atreides as a threat to his throne. Duke Leto Atreides has become very popular — and powerful — among the noble houses of the Imperium in the Landsraad. In addition, The Duke has created a military force similar to the Sardaukar in combat prowess and dedication, but on a smaller scale.  The Emperor fears that it would be a matter of time before the Atreides forces could equal or surpasses his dreaded Sardaukar.
The Emperor decides that House Atreides must be destroyed, but realizes that an open attack on the popular Duke Atreides and his House could unite the individual Houses of the Landsraad against House Corrino (each nobleman would fear being the next House to be isolated and destroyed, and all might unite against the Emperor to prevent this).  For this reason, the Emperor conceives of a devious conspiracy using the Atreides's ancient enemies, House Harkonnen, as a weapon against the Duke.  Baron Vladimir Harkonnen willingly participates in the plot because of his personal hatred toward the Duke and his House and because he believes he will reap substantial gains in personal and familial power by serving the Emperor, potentially marrying his heir Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen to a Corrino daughter and placing him on the Imperial Throne.
The Emperor awards the Duke a fiefdom, previously held by the Harkonnens, on Arrakis, a desert planet which is the only source of the 'Spice.' Indeed the Spacing Guild and the Bene Gesserit cannot function and exert power without spice — the Guild could not 'fold space' to navigate across immense distances in space, and the Bene Gesserit's powers of memory recall would be stunted.  Civilization depends on the Spice, making it the most valuable commodity in the universe.  
Despite their misgivings, the Atreides have no choice but to accept the honor and status accorded by this fiefdom, and must relocate to Arrakis.  Unbeknownst to the Duke, the Emperor has enlisted the Harkonnens to attack the Atreides shortly after they are installed on Arrakis, under the pretext of their inter-House feud and the Harkonnen loss of Arrakis.  They will be covertly aided in this attack by legions of Sardaukar dressed in the livery of House Harkonnen, so as to conceal the Emperor's hand in the destruction of Duke Atreides.
In addition to covert military assistance, the Harkonnen are aided by a traitor they have recruited in House Atreides.  The Duke's only son, Paul Atreides, and Paul's mother, the Bene Gesserit Jessica, manage to flee into the desert to seek refuge among Arrakis's indigenous Fremen.  Paul Atreides is able to harness the power of the Fremen by appearing to fulfill their religious prophecies while at the same time developing into the Kwisatz Haderach.  With help of the Fremen, Paul launches a war to restore Atreides control over Arrakis, avenge the death of his father, assume the Imperial Throne, and become the most powerful man the universe has ever seen.
: Restored the more extensive synopsis from history. From what I can see this original synopsis was replaced by a teaser because editor thought it wasn't appropriate to have an extensive synopsis of book. However, Wikipedia is not paper and so there is no reason not to have a detailed synopsis. All the other articles have detailed synopsis as well, as do other articles on various novels. Obviously the synopsis is a spoiler if you haven't read the book; but this is an encyclopedia not a magazine review. 
:I should, however, note that I originally added all the synopis' for the original series and thus have a personal interest in not having wasted that time writing it in the first place for Wikipedia. --ChrisG 22:17, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synopsis 

message: ChrisG, Stan: I think the discussion about NPOV above is pointless! You just agree on:
* Absolute NPOV from a single editor is not possible
* Editors make an effort to be as NPOV as they can; so if still POV, another editor's POV is needed.
But the point here is how to NPOV this article, and that someone'd better do it. I'm near totally ignorant about Dune, so i cannot help. But you both, ChrisG & Stan, agree on which points are POV!... So you surely know how to fix them!
If I were to write an article on Zelda, it surely would talk of all its goodness. But that doesn't mean I cannot read/research what the critics on it are about! It's not that difficult to write "some people think A because of bla bla bla. Another people think B, considering that blu blu blu"
In conclusion: when we appreciate some piece of text is POVed, we are all capable of [or asking someone to] fix it, so it approaches a little more to NPOV. (And that remains true when the piece of text I consider POVed was written by me!) --euyyn 22:25, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In actual fact the parts of the article which there were disagreements about NPOV were removed at some point over the months I was away from actively editing Wikipedia. Thanks for the reminder, because I certainly believe there needs to be a section on the critical status of Dune in Science Fiction and so I will have to look again at the deleted history --ChrisG 23:20, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  To NPOV or not to NPOV.... 

message: When a Bene Gesserit goes through the initiation to become a reverend mother she does not recieved all of her ancestral memories, she only receives the memories of all the preceding Reverend Mothers in her line, and it is not the "male ancestral memories" that she can not access, just a certain "black" area that terrifies. This may be the male part of the psyche, but I think even that is speculation. I am going to make these changes if no one objects. --ZaQ 12:54, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bene Gesserit and Reverend Mothers =

message: The 'Dune' article got mentioned in Slate today- ; 
:Wikipedia is a colossal improvement—it's just like the fictional Hitchhiker's Guide, only nerdier. Wikipedia is the Web fetishist's ideal data structure: It's free, it's open-source, and it features a 4,000-word exegesis of Dune.
I'm not sure if that is a compliment or insult, but I'm posting it anyways. --maru 11:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media Mention 

message: Just reverted an anon's edit; do we actually know whether the empire embraces multiple empires?  The descriptions of the Guild implies that it can travel essentially anywhere it knows of, but the empire was formed of pre-guild colonized planets, so athe geographic extent seems to me uncertain, and thusly unwarranted to put in such a claim.  Appreciate any feedback. --maru 13:35, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Geographic extent 

message: Have just read through the article and overall it's pretty good but i think in order to be considered as a more encyclopaedic entry it should lose the detailed synopsis. The reasons being is that for those that have read the book and want to look up dune, i'm imagining they would like to know about things such as: its critical reception, the ideas and themes that Herbert explores within the book and it's influence on the literary world. For those who have never read the book the detailed synopsis really goes into too much depth about a great book which they should seek out and explore themselves. A brief synopsis will entice new readers where as a long one detailing plot strands and character events pre-empties the enjoyment of reading the book. 
I think if you erased the detailed synopsis and instead expanded on the theme section with more detailed and thorough research with opinions from academia, how the book was received in critical circles both positive and negative and also the impact the book has had on the genre of science fiction that would make for a great article about a fantastic book (in my  opinion possibly the best book iv'e read to this date).
To those who have written and edited the detailed synopsis i can see that you have put a huge amount of time and effort in to it but i think that it would be better to sacrifice this section for the betterment of the article.
What do people think? --Yakuzai 21:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look higher up, you'll see that I did indeed intend to do just that (well, minus the scholarly apparatus part).  How's it going and when will I post it? Err.... Soon! --maru 22:36, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Detailed Synopsis?

message: I made some structural changes.  As much as I love "themes" and "allegory" they really have to go under the synopsis.  No sense discussing the implications of the story w/o mentioning...the actual story.  In addition, I really think the long synopsis is un-necessary and  we ought to consider removing it.  I hate to trash so much work, but I'm not sure it adds to the article.  There's a similar problem at Les Miserables.  It's also a long book.  Kaisershatner 17:15, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyedits Dec 2005, and Long Synopsis

message: I distinctly and specifically remember reading a quote or article that said Frank Herbert's conception of the story of Dune finished with <I>God Emperor of Dune.</I>  Am I making this up or can someone verify this for me? Matrixfusion 03:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Specific quote about Dune 

message: This will be incorporated into the article as soon as it is matured.
*'Father, the Sleeper has awakened'.  -Paul Atreides upon mastering the ride on the worm.
I think one of the units in Warcraft 3 sais 'the sleeper has awakened' right after it is built. (Druid?) Bertus 12:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous lines 

message: While Farad'n is a member of House Corrino, I do not recall his presence in this book. If indeed he is not present then I don't think it would be appropriate for him to receive mention here.
:I believe that Farad'n was referenced as one of the potential heirs to to the throne. Although I have to agree, his presence in the first book of Dune isn't noteworthy. GreatMizuti 13:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Farad'n a character?

message: Removed "The Imperium is often mistaken as a galactic one, but it seems that the stars have their own nebulas." as it makes no sense whatsoever. Clarityfiend 00:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Astronomical error

message: I came across the quote and citation in this article that discusses Dune as the best-selling science fiction novel of all time, with more than 12 million copies sold.  That just doesn't seem like that many to me, but I can't discover a way to retrieve sales figures on novels such as Jurassic Park, Stranger in a Strange Land, Frankenstein, or 2001.  Is there a way to fact-check this claim?  Benji 15:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the claim comes from the publisher here, so the trail ends there. Short of actually seeing the raw statistics for all booksellers from the 1900s on, I'm not sure how one would fact-check such an assertion. --maru   (talk)  contribs 03:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The publisher's claim has the feel of factless publicity.  Since it's a simple factual claim that Dune is the best-selling science fiction novel of all time (12 million copies sold is the figure that seems to stick in my mind), it would be a simple matter of finding out if any science fiction novel has sold more than 12 million copies.  I'm just hoping that someone more familiar with publishing figures than myself could offer some actual proof of the numbers involved here.Benji 16:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Best-selling science fiction novel of all time? 

message: eg, this new addition: "Bene Gesserit is clearly a reference to the Jesuit Order founded by Ignatius of Loyla - an organization known for soldierly discpline and great learning." Leeborkman 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh, I see that someone else removed it as I was typing.  Leeborkman 01:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allusions/references to actual history, geography and current science - full of POV? 

message: What is this? I don't recall ever seeing this mentioned in the novels -- at least up to God Emperor. Unless someone can point it out in one of the texts, my guess is that it's a mistranslation of "spice trance". I've also posted this question on the talk page. See Talk:Spice agony. Alcarillo 15:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Answered there, but again, the phrase does not occur until Heretics. (Or "Hairy Ticks", as I prefer!) --SandChigger 17:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: See my comments at Talk:Spice agony, but I've altered the reference here for accuracy. TAnthony 18:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Is the way the section reads now strictly correct though? Before Jessica's conversion with the Water of Life on Arrakis, didn't the BG use other drugs to induce the Agony? (Also, I went back and reread the passage describing Jessica's transformation in Dune last night and, frankly, it didn't seem all that physically traumatic. ???) --SandChigger 23:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct, so I adjusted it further; but though I believe that afterwards only the spice-essence method was used by the BG, I always assumed it was more a concentrated spice overdose rather than sandworm bile. If you know the truth of that, it probably should be noted here. TAnthony 00:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I've always assumed they used a dose of Water of Life. I'll see if I can find something. (Maybe there's some specific mention in the account of Murbella's daughter that fails in Hunters? Will check later...) I added mention of the Water of LIfe, btw. --SandChigger 04:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, are you looking for Dune facts in HUNTERS ?!?!  Surely hell has frozen over. LOL. TAnthony 05:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't blow a gasket there, OK? :) I just mentioned it as a ready reference, one place to look for a hint, that's all. (My view is that there has to be some FH in the new books, however hard to find!) --SandChigger 05:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spice agony? 

message: What, no mention in the real-world allusions section on how Arrakis is meant to sound like Iraq and Shaddam like Saddam?  No mention of the Feydakin or Zensunni beliefs?  Dune literally drips with references to Iraq and to Islam.
http://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.5.3.112 (talk) 20:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, a book from 1965 was written with allusions to the leadership of Iraq by Saddam Hussein, who only became president of Iraq fourteen years later in July 1979? Very interesting... you can see why it's not included. timrem 20:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And don't forget that Ar-rakis literally means "The Dancer" when translated into arabic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.202.108.24 (talk • contribs) 04:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mentioned on the Arrakis page, not needed here. --SandChigger 11:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq, Saddam, Islam 

message: The page currently has two full plot summaries. The first is fairly short, and while it glosses over the second half of the book, feels like the right length. The second is a huge detailed summary. If it is Wikipedia's job to provide such a detailed summary (is it?), then it should probably be on a separate page. Splitting off the second summary would allow this article to grow in the areas it needs to -- thematic issues and real-world importance -- while keeping article size down. Adbaxter 21:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been 6 weeks since Adbaxter's proposal, and it's garnered no support.  I've removed the split-proposed tag from the article. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split Request 

message: There seems to be no start of spoiler warning. Just the "spoilers end here" notice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.226.241.126 (talk • contribs) 09:50, May 17, 2007
:There's been a recent campaign to remove spoiler tags lately (I don't get it, but ...). They took out the initial tag but missed the "endspoiler", I'll get it. TAnthony 17:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spoiler tags

message: In the section Dune references in popular culture, the link that apparently goes to a separate articles simply redirects to this one, causing a loop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.100.20.88 (talk • contribs) 01:43, June 2, 2007
:I think you maye have come across the article in the middle of Haemo's re-merge of the material back in. All links there seem fine, let me know if I'm missing something. TAnthony 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Broken (Recursive) Link

message: I think that inline citations would be the single best way to improve this article.  It would sort out the fact from the fanaticism, would encourage better editing, and would be a huge help in getting the article to GA status. Wrad 00:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inline citations 

message: One of those things has to go.  I don't care which one.  Tommy.rousse 03:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a split request was attempted not long ago (see above) and it didn't gain any consensus so the tag was removed. ColdmachineTalk 07:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Two Plot Summaries 

message: Overall, I'm impressed with the general cleanliness and non-"in-universe"-ness of this article. However, upon reading the introductory paragraphs, I found that it was very hard to read once you hit the third and final paragraph. I found that half of the paragraph was made up of one gigantic run-on:
"He took a plane to Florence, Oregon, where the USDA was sponsoring a lengthy series of experiments in using poverty grasses to stabilize and slow down the damaging sand dunes, which could "swallow whole cities, lakes, rivers, highways";[3] his article on that, "They Stopped the Moving Sands", was never completed (and was only published decades later in an incomplete form in The Road to Dune) but it interested Herbert in the general subject of ecology and related matters; he spent the next five years continuing research and writing and rewriting[4] what would eventually become Dune,[5] though it was Spice Planet before the novel was serialized in the magazine Analog from 1963 to 1965 as two shorter works, Dune World and The Prophet of Dune."
Too many semicolons, parentheses, general information in that one sentence. Maybe someone with better knowledge of the subject than me could clean this one up a bit? Thanks in advance. -ExNoctem 22:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification

message: I just moved a paragraph from the lead into the body of the article under the heading "Origins". The lead isn't really supposed to introduce any material that can't be found in the main body. It is supposed to summarize what is already in the article.
On the same subject of organization, the organization of this article puzzles me. I'm a fan of the book and I'd like to help with this article, but I've got a lot of questions first. Why does this article have two synopsis sections? This makes no sense to me. It seems like this article has too much synopsis and not enough analysis. Are we running into problems gathering analysis? I've got some experience in the field and a lot of resources, so I could help, but I don't really want to start a war trying to fix the synopsis. Wrad (talk) 23:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added an "Analysis" section which I intend to expand. It might be a little rough getting started, though, so suggestions and copyedits are welcome. Wrad (talk) 00:25, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We need to shrink the plot synopsis to 900 words at the most. There's just no way around it. If we want to move some of the plot into character and setting analysis, so be it, but we shouldn't have such huge plot sections on wikipedia. Looking through the history of this talk page I see a very large group of editors who have said exactly what I'm saying now. It's time to get it done. Wrad (talk) 01:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow! Haven't read it all in detail, but on first glance I'm impressed with the scope if this new information and its sources. Thanks for the add and the reorg! — TAnthonyTalk 02:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I'm cooking up a themes section now from some books I've found. I'm most concerned about the plot summaries though. I envision an article with a much shorter, single plot section, along with some setting and character analysis. I don't know where to start on this though. Experience tells me that plot sections can become battle fronts. Should we start a draft on a subpage? Wrad (talk) 02:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That sounds like a plan! Also, for what it's worth, I think extensive thematic analysis of literary material should be given a separate article as is the case with The Lord of the Rings. It reduces the risk for tarring the main article with WP:OR. ColdmachineTalk 08:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree about a separate article. In my experience, if you keep the themes section strictly well-referenced, OR isn't a problem. I've found this to be the case with Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet, both of which had problem with OR before we added sourced sections. I may be wrong, but I think we should at least try to have a sourced themes section in the article before splitting it to another article. Wrad (talk) 16:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization 

message: I'd encourage anyone with fears of WP:synthesis in the Analysis section to read my sources directly. They will find that there is no synthesis in what I added. I am making absolutely no claims not made in the sources. Period. This includes all of the allusions to the book. All allusions to the book used to support the statements in the Analysis section are also found in the sources I used. Again, please check the sources yourself. It is not synthesis and I challenge anyone to show me otherwise from the sources I use. Wrad (talk) 16:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Synthesis 

message: Why is this redirecting to the novel?  Why doesn't it have its own page, as the miniseries does?Drhamad (talk) 19:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I took a look through the revision history of the redirect article, and it looks as if it only had one source to back up the claim (as much as we all know it to be true). So, at the moment the article can't stand alone since it's covered by WP:NFF. If there are reliable sources which can be added, which indicate that shooting is underway then the article could stand on its own. So, I have to agree with the current status for now. ColdmachineTalk 22:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

text: moved from Talk:Dune (2009 film) 
Ah, I didn't realize that one of the notability guidelines for future films was that it had to begin shooting before it is allowed to be included into wikipedia. Saket (talk) 08:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

text: And as it further says: Additionally, films that have already begun shooting, but have not yet been publicly released (theatres or video), should not have their own articles, unless the production itself is notable per notability guidelines. -- ALLSTARecho 08:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  True, I'd also point out that a cursory glance at some of the later films coming out in the Upcoming Films category have articles, with multiple mainstream media sources, despite the fact that they have not started shooting yet. This is partly why I was/am confused about the notability guideline requirement that upcoming films need to have started shooting. Doesn't seem consistently applied. Saket (talk) 12:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, you're right. It's not consistently applied. -- ALLSTARecho 21:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

text: These rules seem pretty strange to me. Rumors aren't fact, but it is fact that rumors are spreading, which in my opinion we should be informed about on wikipedia, even if it would just be to inform people it's just rumors so far and that nothing has been confirmed yet. I had to go back to the redirect page and check out its history in order to find this information. That doesn't seem the right way to find your information on wikipedia! CheesePlease NL (talk) 10:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Refer to WP:NFF. ALLSTARecho 10:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

text: For future use, the info and sources can be taken from this edit before article was redirected. However, I am still hesitant for it to be mentioned in the article just because it is so nebulous; if there is no script, no pre-production and just a deal with Berg, we all know how directors can change and projects can go away. Even the release year is in question, because if, as the source says, shooting starts in 2009, it probably wouldn't be released until 2010. It really is too much of a tidbit to be worth noting at this point. — TAnthonyTalk 01:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

text: OK, the Berg film is actually mentioned in the article again, so I am adding these additional sources but leaving them listed here as well in case the article is edited further. — TAnthonyTalk 04:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Dune (2009 Peter Berg Movie)

message: :moved from Talk:Dune (2009 film) 
Ah, I didn't realize that one of the notability guidelines for future films was that it had to begin shooting before it is allowed to be included into wikipedia. Saket (talk) 08:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And as it further says: Additionally, films that have already begun shooting, but have not yet been publicly released (theatres or video), should not have their own articles, unless the production itself is notable per notability guidelines. -- ALLSTARecho 08:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  True, I'd also point out that a cursory glance at some of the later films coming out in the Upcoming Films category have articles, with multiple mainstream media sources, despite the fact that they have not started shooting yet. This is partly why I was/am confused about the notability guideline requirement that upcoming films need to have started shooting. Doesn't seem consistently applied. Saket (talk) 12:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, you're right. It's not consistently applied. -- ALLSTARecho 21:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

text: These rules seem pretty strange to me. Rumors aren't fact, but it is fact that rumors are spreading, which in my opinion we should be informed about on wikipedia, even if it would just be to inform people it's just rumors so far and that nothing has been confirmed yet. I had to go back to the redirect page and check out its history in order to find this information. That doesn't seem the right way to find your information on wikipedia! CheesePlease NL (talk) 10:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Refer to WP:NFF. ALLSTARecho 10:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

text: For future use, the info and sources can be taken from this edit before article was redirected. However, I am still hesitant for it to be mentioned in the article just because it is so nebulous; if there is no script, no pre-production and just a deal with Berg, we all know how directors can change and projects can go away. Even the release year is in question, because if, as the source says, shooting starts in 2009, it probably wouldn't be released until 2010. It really is too much of a tidbit to be worth noting at this point. — TAnthonyTalk 01:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability

message: I still think it's too soon to start writing about the Berg film in this or its own article, but I wanted to list any sources that appear as they may be of use later:
*
*
*HT Syndication. "Peter Berg to direct Dune adaptation." Hindustan Times. 18 March 2008.
Thanks. — TAnthonyTalk 14:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, the Berg film is actually mentioned in the article again, so I am adding these additional sources but leaving them listed here as well in case the article is edited further. — TAnthonyTalk 04:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Okay, my blue-eyed friends, I'll be reviewing this article for GA.  I've read the book and know a bit about science fiction literature, so hopefully my review won't be useless.  My goal will be to have a review ready by tomorrow evening.  If there's anything extraordinary behind the article that I should know before reviewing, now is your chance. --JayHenry (talk) 03:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry guys, I'm a bad reviewer.  This will have to wait another day.  Thanks for your patience (if you have it). --JayHenry (talk) 03:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry only for the delay.  My previous edit probably left the impression that I was failing the article, and I don't want to leave that edit summary in your watchlists and give you an undeserved scare! --JayHenry (talk) 03:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA review 

message: "After the publication of Silent Spring by Rachel Carson in 1962, science fiction writers were confronted with the problem of biological-human relations. Dune responded in 1965..." This comment suggests that Dune was written in response to Silent Spring.  However, as noted on Frank Herbert's page, "Herbert began researching Dune in 1959..."  Therefore, the section relating Dune to Silent Spring should be removed or rewritten.  While Silent Spring may have been a later influence (which would require something from Herbert himself), it did not provoke the writing of the novel. Biccat (talk) 14:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the problem. He can begin researching in 1959, eventually read Silent Spring in 1962, and finally finish the book in 1965. No contradiction whatsoever. Wrad (talk) 20:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Environmentalism & Ecology 

message: I did want to clarify that I phrased my edit summary wrong when I removed the mention of the band Shai Hulud; I was questioned about it on my talk page but should have commented here as well. In any case, the band itself is notable, but their only connection to Dune is that they named themselves after a term from the novel — that is not influence, that is trivia. The band is not notable within the context of this article, and wouldn't be (in my opinion) in the Sandworm article either. The mention of the band, and other such trivia, have been deleted a few times in the past. — TAnthonyTalk 16:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Point taken. But doesn't that mean there's a bigger call to make here? If the name of Shai Hulud is not a direct link to Dune - and the term itself was coined in the novel - then why mention any such connection to the book by any artist in any medium? Apologies if I'm jumping into a discussion that's already done and dusted. Tanzeelat (talk) 07:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are definitely correct, and similar trivial references have been removed from both the Dune (novel) and Dune (film) articles. The ones that remain are a bit "meatier" and (I think) show a more substantial and direct influence, with sources. Some of it still borders on trivia but ... — TAnthonyTalk 15:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

text: The list of songs which sample the Dune film seems endless and kind of irks me, LOL, but since they contain material from the film I guess they are technically some form of derivative work, right?? — TAnthonyTalk 15:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps the answer is to hive it off into its own article, where the triviality can be labelled... except that might be considered OR... Tanzeelat (talk) 12:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that was done when there was a longer list, which has since been deleted. It doesn't seem quite worth it at this point. — TAnthonyTalk 14:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural influence and Shai Hulud

message: According to the biography of Frank Herbert, he worked as a social/ecological consultant in Vietnam and Pakistan in 1972.
He first published Dune in Analog in 1963.
In the Origins section of this article on Dune, his experience in 1972 influenced the book he finished writing several years before that experience.
...just...eh? Is this from a reliable source, and if so, does it actually say something to this effect?
http://www.dunenovels.com/news/genesis.html may provide a better (primary) source for this section, if it hasn't already...not certain I have time to edit myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalai Eljahn (talk • contribs) 07:59, February 5, 2009
:Thanks for the catch, that was clearly the work of an eager editor trying to make a connection; it is of course more likely that Herbert was used as a consultant because of the expertise gained in researching and writing the novel. Anyway, I cut the paragraph but kept the potentially useful links under "External links." Thanks again! — TAnthonyTalk 17:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence of service in Vietnam/Pakistan? (Origin) 

message: Who said that?  Joetmml (talk) 06:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Litany against fear is used by a few characters during the series, but I believe Paul is the first to say the phrase in the novel when he's tested with the gom jabbar.— TAnthonyTalk 07:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fear is the mind killer. 

message: So the "reception" section is basically a list of blurbs from the back of the book (literally—the Clarke and Heinlein ones are on the back of my copy, and the other "Amazon.com" sourced ones are similar). This is really not very critical or actually illustrative of its reception. Perhaps someone could actually do a little work and track down how it was received at the time, both within the sci-fi community and outside of it, and how it is regarded today? Surely we cannot use blurbs, though—they are known to be not reliable in the slightest, and lack context. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reception 

message: Dune inspired many songs, not only one. 81.182.236.78 (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  inspired a song??? 

message: Junundu worms and their Queen in the MMORPG Guild Wars: Nightfall are modelled on the behaviour of sandworms.
regarding this edit, it's only fitting that a novel based on allusions to other subjects should include a reference to a game that is based primarily on allusions to other pop culture references.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.250.81.218 (talk) 02:06, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:TRIVIA.  Every minor reference in other works shouldn't be mentioned (especially when the allusion is being made by something which is primaryly allusions).  If this is a very important reference it should be backed up by reliable third party sources which discuss Guild Wars use of Dune references. --Daniel 02:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: argh fine, you guys have so many rules, my apologies, but i was thinking, people who appreciate literature heavy on allusions/refs might enjoy something else heavy on them as well. you can learn a lot from GW about dif cultures, just as you can by gleaning the stuff from dune, but your decision stands.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.250.81.218 (talk) 03:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: cultural influence edit 

message: Here's how we fixed the plot section for the Hamlet article. This is the synopsis section as it stands in the first section. I think we should work to have it cover the novel as well as we can in under 900 words without relying on the second synopsis section. Feel free to edit anything within the pink and leave comments or suggestions. I'm thinking that a big help for this will be a preceding settings section describing the world in which the novel takes place as succinctly as possible. That should save a lot of space in the synopsis section. Wrad (talk) 19:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plot section 

message: ===Setting===
451 words
Thousands of years in the future, the human race has scattered throughout the galaxy, populating multiple planets ruled by aristocratic Houses who themselves answer to Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV. The CHOAM corporation is the major underpinning of the Imperial economy, with shares and directorships determining each House's income and financial leverage. Key is the control of the planet Arrakis, the only source of the valuable spice melange, which gives those who ingest it extended life and prescient awareness. Melange is crucial as it enables space travel, which in turn is monopolized by the Spacing Guild; its Navigators use the spice to to safely plot a course for the Guild's Heighliner ships via prescience using  "foldspace" technology, which allows instantaneous travel to anywhere in the galaxy.
The spice is also crucial to the powerful matriarchal order called the Bene Gesserit. The secretive Bene Gesserit, often referred to as "witches," possess mental and physical powers developed through thousands of generations of controlled gene lines and years of physical and mental conditioning called prana-bindu training. When a Bene Gesserit acolyte becomes a full Reverend Mother by undergoing what the Lady Jessica calls "the Reverend Mother ordeal" (referred to as the spice agony later in the series), she gains access to her "ancestral memories" — the complete life experience of all her female ancestors back to the point of each life's conception.  The agony is induced by taking a massive overdose of "awareness spectrum narcotics," though Jessica discovers that the equivalent Fremen ritual involves drinking the bile of a drowned sandworm, a melange-essence poison known as the Water of Life which the subject must change internally or die. Only women have ever been able to survive the transformation. However, the Bene Gesserit have a secret, centuries-old breeding program to create a prescient superhuman — and male equivalent to a Bene Gesserit — called the Kwisatz Haderach, who would not only be able to survive the spice agony, but whose "organic mental powers would bridge space and time." Herbert, Frank (1965). Dune, Terminology of the Imperium (Kwisatz Haderach).
The planet Arrakis itself is sparsely settled by a human population of native Fremen tribes. Leaders of the tribes come to be so by defeating the former leader in combat. The Fremen also have complex rituals and systems revolving around the value of water on their desert planet. They conserve the water distilled from their dead, consider spitting an honorable greeting, and value tears as the greatest gift one can give to the dead. Their culture also revolves around the spice, which is created as part of the life cycle of the giant sandworms who dominate the deserts. Lastly, missionary efforts of the Bene Gesserit have implanted a belief in a male Messiah who will one day come and transform Arrakis.
===Plot===
824 words
Emperor Shaddam IV has come to fear House Atreides, partly due to the growing popularity of Duke Leto Atreides and also because the talent of Leto's fighting force is beginning to rival the effectiveness of the Emperor's own dreaded Imperial Sardaukar guard. Shaddam decides that House Atreides must be destroyed, but cannot risk an overt attack on a single House, which would by necessity unite the other Houses against him. The Emperor instead uses the centuries-old feud between House Atreides and House Harkonnen to disguise his assault, enlisting the brilliant and power-hungry Baron Vladimir Harkonnen in his plan to trap and eliminate the Atreides. Shaddam forces Leto to accept the lucrative fief of the desert planet Arrakis, the only known source of the spice melange, previously controlled by the Harkonnens.
Complicating the political intrigue is the fact that the Duke's son Paul Atreides is an essential part of the Bene Gesserit's secret, centuries-old breeding program to create a superhuman called the Kwisatz Haderach. There are signs that Paul might actually be the Kwisatz Haderach, born one generation earlier than expected, though this remains in doubt.
The Atreides suspect foul play, and are able to thwart the initial Harkonnen traps and complications while simultaneously building trust with the local population of Fremen. Ultimately, however, the Atreides are unable to withstand a devastating Harkonnen attack, supported by Imperial Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnen troops and aided by a traitor within House Atreides itself — the Suk doctor Wellington Yueh. Captured, Duke Leto dies in a failed attempt to assassinate Baron Harkonnen; Paul and Jessica escape into the deep desert. With Jessica's Bene Gesserit abilities and Paul's developing skills, they manage to join a band of Fremen, ferocious fighters who ride the giant sandworms of Arrakis.
Paul and his mother quickly learn the ways of the Fremen, while teaching them the weirding way, or Bene Gesserit method of fighting. Jessica becomes a Reverend Mother, taking the concentrated spice while pregnant with her second child. Daughter Alia experiences all that her mother does from the spice, gaining prescience and wisdom before even being born. Years pass, and Paul increasingly recognizes the strength of the Fremen fighting force, and recognizes their potential to overtake even the Sardaukar and win back Arrakis. Living on the spice diet of the Fremen, Paul's prescience increases dramatically, enabling him to foresee future events and gaining him a religious respect from the Fremen, who regard him as their prophesied Messiah. As Paul grows in influence, he begins a jihad against Harkonnen rule of the planet under his new Fremen name, [Muad'Dib]].
Both the Emperor and the Baron Harkonnen show increasing interest in the fervor of religious fanaticism shown on Arrakis for this "Muad'Dib," not guessing that this leader is the presumed-dead Paul. Harkonnen plots to send his nephew and heir Feyd Rautha as a replacement for his more-ruthless other nephew Glossu Rabban — who is currently in charge of the planet — to gain the respect of the now-troublesome Fremen. Winning them over as a fighting force, he hopes, will give him enough power to overtake the Emperor himself. The Emperor, however, is highly suspicious of the Baron and sends spies to watch his movements.
On Arrakis, Paul is reunited with an old ally of the Atreides, Gurney Halleck. Completely loyal to the Atreides, Gurney is convinced that Jessica is the traitor who had caused the House's downfall. He nearly kills her, but for Paul's last-minute intervention. Disturbed by his lack of complete prescience and the near-loss of his mother, Paul decides to take the spice poison. After several days in a near-death state, Paul emerges as the Kwisatz Haderach. His powers are less random, and he is able to see past, present and future at will.
Alia is captured by Sardaukar and brought to the planet's capital Arrakeen, where the Baron Harkonnen is nervously attempting to thwart the Fremen jihad under the close watch of the Emperor. The Emperor is surprised at four-year-old Alia's defiance of his power and her confidence in her brother, whom she reveals to be Paul Atreides, still alive. At that moment, with the aid of a gigantic sandstorm, Paul and his army of Fremen attack the city. Alia kills the Baron Harkonnen with a poisoned needle during the confusion. Paul quickly overtakes the city's defenses and confronts the Emperor, threatening to destroy the spice and thereby effectively end space travel and cripple both the Imperial power and Bene Gesserit in one blow. Feyd Rautha challenges Paul to a knife-duel in a final attempt to stop his overthrow of power, but is defeated despite treachery. Realizing that Paul is capable of doing all he has threatened to do, the Emperor is forced to abdicate and promise his daughter Princess Irulan in marriage to Paul. Paul ascends the throne, his control of Arrakis and the spice establishing a new kind of power over the Empire which will change the face of the Known Universe.
</div>
===Setting comments===
I just trimmed it quite a bit. I think this section should focus on the importance of spice, the most crucial element in the novel. Mentats and machines aren't as crucial to a beginner's understanding of the basic plot of the novel, so I took those out. Wrad (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So I just did a first pass at a copyedit/rewrite of the Setting above, basically consolidating redundancies and fixing links. There may be some ideas and phrasing lost from the article's current version worth re-incorporating, I'm going to check and compare at some point. — TAnthonyTalk 18:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Ok, I added some more and eagerly await comments. Wrad (talk) 02:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi, I like the layout for this revised plot synopsis. I haven't checked the content thoroughly, but it looks like a good start to me and I entirely agree with you that the current synopsis is too long - a revised version should be shorter, preferably. ColdmachineTalk 16:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I did an initial copyedit/rewrite of the Plot section above as well, though I wouldn't say it is now perfect! I am assuming that this section should somewhat stand on its own from the Setting section, but I wasn't sure to what extent we need to repeat certain details, like the explanation of the Kwisatz Haderach, Arrakis as the sole source of spice, etc. I'm curious if the group thinks a casual reader will usually read both, or may skip ahead to Plot and then perhaps not fully understand some of what's going on. — TAnthonyTalk 18:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think if we put both sections under a Synopsis heading we increase the chance of their reading both. I think trying to explain too much in the plot section comes at too high a cost, and we're just going to have to count on them to read the setting section. Wrad (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm going to put this draft into the article. It's not perfect, but it's better than we have now. We can continue making it better as we go. Wrad (talk) 04:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synopsis 

message: I just trimmed it quite a bit. I think this section should focus on the importance of spice, the most crucial element in the novel. Mentats and machines aren't as crucial to a beginner's understanding of the basic plot of the novel, so I took those out. Wrad (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So I just did a first pass at a copyedit/rewrite of the Setting above, basically consolidating redundancies and fixing links. There may be some ideas and phrasing lost from the article's current version worth re-incorporating, I'm going to check and compare at some point. — TAnthonyTalk 18:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Setting comments

message: I started a rewrite. Obviously it's still missing crucial elements such as Jessica's taking the poison, Alia, and the overthrow of Harkonnen rule on Arakkis. I'm also not sure about the spellings of some things, so feel free to fix those if you know them. Wrad (talk) 20:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I added some more and eagerly await comments. Wrad (talk) 02:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi, I like the layout for this revised plot synopsis. I haven't checked the content thoroughly, but it looks like a good start to me and I entirely agree with you that the current synopsis is too long - a revised version should be shorter, preferably. ColdmachineTalk 16:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I did an initial copyedit/rewrite of the Plot section above as well, though I wouldn't say it is now perfect! I am assuming that this section should somewhat stand on its own from the Setting section, but I wasn't sure to what extent we need to repeat certain details, like the explanation of the Kwisatz Haderach, Arrakis as the sole source of spice, etc. I'm curious if the group thinks a casual reader will usually read both, or may skip ahead to Plot and then perhaps not fully understand some of what's going on. — TAnthonyTalk 18:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think if we put both sections under a Synopsis heading we increase the chance of their reading both. I think trying to explain too much in the plot section comes at too high a cost, and we're just going to have to count on them to read the setting section. Wrad (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm going to put this draft into the article. It's not perfect, but it's better than we have now. We can continue making it better as we go. Wrad (talk) 04:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Plot comments

message: Tha part about the heroism in the novel (in my opinion) forgets to mention that Paul sees his actions not for the benefit of himself, revenge or even for the greater good of the Fremen but because all his other actions will only lead to one thing: Kralizec (sp?). He mentions this a lot of times and although he might be a hero (superficially seen) the way he acts as hero is by trying to save the future of mankind / known empire. His child also sees this "road" and actually doesn't stay from that "Golden" road but walks it. Both acts are off course acts of heroism but to say that Paul is a superhuman being that becomes a hero is a bit short sighted (again in my opinion off course). Paul would ultimately rather have died before ever being found by the Fremen, although the universe would've ended for know mankind without his interdiction...
:We'd have to have a source for that analysis or it would be WP:OR Wrad (talk) 15:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kralizec is mentioned several times in the series. Paul, and later on, Leto II, were actually preparing humanity for Kralizec. Paul lost his nerve after seeing the Golden Path, which was why he walked into the desert blind in an attempt to avoid his destiny/responsibility. Leto II however, accepted his fate and merged with the sandtrouts. His subsequent 3,500 year rule was explicitly to prepare humankind for Kralizec. At the risks of spoiling the series for future readers (SPOILER ALERT), the thinking machines, thought to be vanquished in the Butlerian Jihad, will return. Misha Atreides (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heroism 

message: The article says "Dune is frequently cited as the world's best-selling science fiction novel". But from what I can see, both The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and Nineteen Eighty-Four have sold more copies: List of best-selling books.84.210.60.115 (talk) 19:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting ... obviously the statement in this article is attributed to a source, and even the Dune source in the article you note above (Encyc Britannica) says that Dune has sold "more than any other science-fiction book in history." I guess you could argue that 1984 is social SF and Hitchhikers is a parody? Regardless, the wording here says "frequently cited as" and that is certainly true.— TAnthonyTalk 00:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No such incident took place. Paul, during their flight, senses heightened, made the revelation to Jessica. At the climatic scene, Alia revealed it to the Baron as well just before stabbing him.Misha Atreides (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The world's best-selling science fiction novel

message: The articlw does not refer to Hebrew and Jewish imfluence such as "Mesiah", "Keizat Haderech", Bene Gesserit" etc.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.5.83 (talk) 07:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean Jewish and Arabic, or Semitic. Not only is Kwisatz haderach a Wikipedia entry, but so is the actual Hebrew Kefitzat Haderech, as well as Iman, Mahdi, and others. A website suggests, "... Paul Atreides, who was proclaimed by his followers, the Fremen, to be the Mahdi. Paul's Fremen name, "Muad'Dib", means "teacher of adāb (manners and respect)" in Arabic, although within the novel it is a word in the Fremen language of Chakobsa, and is the name of a kind of desert mouse." Ncsr11 (talk) 16:59, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew and Jewish influence 

message: In chapter 4, the statement, "Then she said a good ruler has to learn his world's language, that it's different for every world. And I thought she meant they didn't speak Galach on Arrakis, but she said that wasn't it at all," is when Paul references that the language is not English, but a hybrid of an English-and-Slavic language (GALACH: offical language of the Imperium. Hybrid Inglo-Slavic with strong traces of cultural-specialization terms adopted during a long chain of human migrations). 
Although the author relates the conversations in English, the apparent use is the intention for more Slavic words in which the reader would be confounded.  Ncsr11 (talk) 15:47, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language of Dune is 'Galach', not English 

message: In a strictly literary sense (no references to any film), when Gurney Halleck begins to operate the target dummy for Paul's training, he mumbles to himself, " "... If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets. ...", (he murmered.") 
The passage associates to the Wikipedia entry, If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.  Ncsr11 (talk) 01:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "... I will bend like a reed in the wind ...", has probable relation with, The Oak and the Reed. Ncsr11 (talk) 17:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets ..." 

message: "... in collaboration with Salvador Dali, Orson Welles, Gloria Swanson, David Carradine, Geraldine Chaplin, Alain Delon, Hervé Villechaize and Mick Jagger. The music would be composed by Pink Floyd, Magma, Henry Cow and Karlheinz Stockhausen ... ust as the storyboards, designs, and script were finished, the financial backing dried up. Frank Herbert travelled to Europe in 1976 to find that $2 million of the $9.5 million budget had already been spent in pre-production, and that Jodorowsky's script would result in a 14-hour movie ("It was the size of a phonebook)""
* . Are there any further sources on this? 87.164.104.40 (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  14 hours Jodorowsky Project 

message: How come there is nothing in this lengthy article about how Spice/Fremen/Arrakis is equivalent to oil/Arabs/Arabia? There is even a link down the bottom to a article about this topic. (Unless I missed it somewhere?) Afrotrance (talk) 14:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The article I believe to which you are referring is really about the Arabic influence on words and general concepts in the novel(s). The oil analogy is surely discussed somewhere reliable (The Touponce or O'Reilly books?) but as yet no one has come forward with anything.— TAnthonyTalk 15:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you're thinking of Dune Genesis, an essay by Frank Herbert, which includes: "Yes, there are analogs in Dune of today's events-corruption and bribery in the highest places, whole police forces lost to organized crime, regulatory agencies taken over by the people they are supposed to regulate. The scarce water of Dune is an exact analog of oil scarcity. CHOAM is OPEC." Staecker (talk) 01:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Spice. When the Duke risks his own safety to use his own ornithopter to pick up the three laborers, the worm consumes the factory and a full load of spice is lost. The disparity of wealth between the Atreides family and the Harkkonens is further delayed as the load was supposed to have been the initial revenue of the Duke's clan. Ncsr11 (talk) 23:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spice and oil 

message: "The spice," which is found only on the desert planet Arrakis, is alluded to by the author as not only appearing to resemble cinnamin (Cinnamomum cassia), which comes from a tropical tree bark, but is literally cinnamin in a highly potent narcotic form. Many subtances can appear in the natural world, as well as synthetically, at the same time. The excreted subtance on the desert floors of Arrakis may not come from a bark, but the author hypostulates the formula compound is cinnamomum cassia. Because it cannot be synthetically reproduced, it is conceivable that the chemical compound of the spice has an extra-dimensional aura attached to it——that being to the everyday——cinnamin. Ncsr11 (talk) 23:37, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does Herbert say it is literally cinnamon?   In the books, Spice is actually manufactured in a sac under the ground called a pre-spice mass, where no plants can live, as part of the growth medium of the larval form of Shai-Hulud.  When you say "it is conceivable" here, that's well and good, as long as this doesn't find its way into the actual article.  Linuxgal (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subtance melange, "the spice," is a prescient form of actual cinnamin 

message: In the biography Frank Herbert we call Dune the "best selling science fiction novel of all time" quoting SCI FI Channel 2003. 
That was ten years ago. Does anyone know whether and in what sense this was true? and remains true?
--P64 (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  All-time Best Seller 

message: There's no Dune Wikiproject, so I guess the novel serves as a noticeboard: Language and linguistics in Frank Herbert's Dune is being AfDed if anyone cares. --Gwern  (contribs) 16:18 29 April 2010 (GMT)
:It redirected on 16 September 2010‎ to Dune (franchise).--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk  17:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Language and linguistics' AfD 

message: Almost every book wiki article I've found has touched on some of the negative reaction. It surprises me that this one doesn't have any! I'm guessing that doing so would give the article a more stable and neutral POV necessary for Good_article_criteria.
128.95.130.46 (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is the Criticism? 

message: Many years ago I played a Videogame named Dune and I remember it was really nice. It should be cited.--188.153.50.127 (talk) 16:10, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: See List of games based on Dune, which is linked in the cultural impact section of this article. Thanks.— TAnthonyTalk 16:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Videogame 

message: Has there ever been talk of a Wikiproject for Dune? --S.G.(GH) ping! 14:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Not as far as I can tell.  has done most of the consistent maintenance of these articles, and they all mostly fall under WP:Novels and WP:Science fiction. You are more than welcome to suggest a task force at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Novels. If you rally three or more active contributors beyond TAnthony and yourself who are interested in actively monitoring and contributing to those articles, I will gladly build the infrastructure for you guys to use the Novels assessment templates, and monitor the articles. But it requires 5-10 editing hours to set up basic elements of the task force, not including importance assessments, so its a silly investment of time unless people are going to use it, Sadads (talk) 14:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It would contain 288 articles and about 200 files,, templates and categories per whats included in :Category:Dune_universe plus, probably, a few biographies and stuff related to Frank_Herbert, other authors, and perhaps other works on Template:Frank Herbert. So probably all told, you could include about 600-700 items in that task force, Sadads (talk) 14:57, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: . Don't know if you saw this, Sadads (talk) 01:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

text: I didn't actually, no. It's my favourite novel of all time so I do fancy the idea. I'll propose it at the appropriate place. S.G.(GH) ping! 10:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:   Proposal looks good, make sure that you try soliciting people who may not watch the Novels project page. I would suggest looking for users recently active on Dune articles in the edit histories. The project is moderately active in managing the content, but I get the distinct impression that we don't have a lot of people watching the talk page, Sadads (talk) 14:23, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject 

message: I haven't read the novel, but it says in the plot section of the article that "Paul takes a Fremen lover, Chani, with whom he fathers a son." However, it says in the plot summary for Dune Messiah that Chani has been unable to produce an heir for Paul. I know she does eventually (Leto II) but which plot summary is correct? 88.104.18.223 (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul and Chani have a son named Leto who is killed near the end of the novel (I've restored the bit about his death to the plot summary). In Messiah they have Leto II and Ghanima.— TAnthonyTalk 23:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Now it all makes sense. 88.104.18.223 (talk) 00:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a bit peculiar in that both of their male offspring are called Leto, yet only one (the latter) is referenced as Leto II (though presumably the "II" denotes that he follows from the line of his grandfather, and is not a reference Paul's earlier (and ill-fated) child).  We should take care that these points are addressed in the plot summary. Snow talk 14:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul and Chani's son 

message: Peter the Puppy in the Earthworm Jim cartoon series used to often repeat the litany for fear. Should that be in here?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.126.25.46 (talk) 13:17, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, it's hard to imagine a context in which that trivial detail could contribute in an encyclopedic fashion to the understanding of the subject broadly. Snow talk 14:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop culture references/ cultural impact  

message: Hai.
The last paragraph of the article's "Reception" section reads:
"Writing for The New Yorker, Jon Michaud praises Herbert's "clever authorial decision" to excise robots and computers ("two staples of the genre") from his fictional universe, ..."
Isn't that a completely idiotic and incorrect use of the word "excise"? Did whoever wrote that actually mistake it for "exclude", or am I missing something?
Tanks.
CL  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.67.130.88 (talk) 12:24, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of "excise" 

message: Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the portrayal of a homosexual character (whether negatively or positively) as a "gender issue", unless this is one of the frequent misuses of "gender" as a "euphemism" (as if one were needed) for "sex(ual)".  Sexual orientation has little to do with gender. Even more to the point, it was Frank Herbert himself that chose to make the sole homosexual character in the book so repulsive, thereby confirming one of the abiding anti-gay prejudices (that gay men are often ugly, old and paedophile). Another 1960s male sci-fi writer who put down gays as a group was Robert Heinlein in "Stranger in a strange land": his sexually promiscuous "Martian" character Michael turned down advances from men on the grounds that he "grokked (i.e. sensed) a wrongness" in their sexuality.
Lynch would surely have been quite wrong to adapt Herbert's implicit views on sexual orientation to ones that only became current a couple of decades later. Of course, one might have hoped that Herbert, being a sci-fi writer, was sufficiently prescient/iconoclastic to present a future world in which homosexuality was accepted as normal - but it seems he was sufficiently mid-20th-century American (and male) not to. In any case, his then publishers would almost certainly have shot down any such suggestion on commercial (or obscenity?!) grounds.213.127.210.95 (talk) 16:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender issues 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Wilfred (U.S. TV series); http://www.metro.co.uk/tv/reviews/872529-elijah-woods-comedy-wilfred-is-no-dog :
A comedy that kicks off with a failed suicide attempt and follows it up with a beardy bloke in a dog suit lifting quotes from Frank Herbert’s Dune is practically cocking its leg and spraying its self-conscious wackiness all over you....Luckily for him, salvation came in the shape of his next-door neighbour’s dog, the eponymous Wilfred, who Ryan is alone in seeing as a strapping geezer with an Aussie accent.
--Gwern  (contribs) 14:24 22 August 2011 (GMT)
In the MMORPG Wizard101, sections of the latest world of Mirage borrow from Dune, with many names slightly altered to fit the feline profile of some of that world's inhabitants. JenniferRSong (talk) 00:26, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: In the season 3 premier of the adult animated series Rick and Morty, a popular line from the book is referenced by a character in the background of a scene when he yells, "He who controls the pants controls the galaxy." Link to video clip SomeEnlightenedNarcissist (talk) 17:35, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular culture 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This recent article in BoingBoing –
https://boingboing.net/2017/09/21/the-brilliant-book-that-inspir.html
– describes an apparent major resource used by Herbert in writing Dune, which (so far) has no mention at all in the article. Fellow editors more involved in this (Dune) article might like to consider adding some material. We have an article on the writer in question, Lesley Blanch, though not a separate one on the book in question, The Sabres of Paradise (1960). The connection is alluded to in our article Chakobsa, the actual Caucasian language of the people described by Blanch, which Herbert names (and uses words from) as the language of the Fremen. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.210.199 (talk) 15:15, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Significantly influential source not (yet) discussed 

message: In this section, both Lawrence of Arabia (1962) and The Sabres of Paradise (1960) are said to have been "identified as influences". The citations for both of these claims are articles published in the 2010s where people make their case based solely on identifying perceived similarities between Dune and the work in question. As far as I'm aware, Frank Herbert has never commented publicly on whether either of these works were influences. I believe the current way the article is written is misleading, and those statements should either be struck entirely or qualified. "Identified as potential influences" would be a far more appropriate statement given the actual merit of the citations provided.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.91.28.197 (talk) 12:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, I made that change.— TAnthonyTalk 14:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conjecture stated as fact multiple times in the 'Middle-Eastern and Islamic references' section 

message: Why are there internally two different versions of the article about Dune? There is this one, which links to several articles on other Wikipedias, but then there's also another one, which is in 10 other languages, among which German, Dutch and Italian. That article doesn't link to the English article. How can this be fixed? Or am I missing something and are these articles supposed to be separate? 607 (talk) 13:03, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not all articles in other languages appear 

message: So there's no reason not to have the date mentioned in the original book also in the article. 
The question is, does converting it to our date system make it original research. 
No it doesn't it's a very simple conversion, covered by WP:CALC.
1945 A.D. is 14255 B.G. the year the atomic bombs where dropped on Japan.
This from the Encyclopedia of Dune. 
24.78.228.96 (talk) 03:03, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dune Encyclopedia was NOT authored or co-authored by Frank Herbert, just approved by him. It invents all kinds of plot detail and is not an acceptable source for this. The premise of 1945 is not in the appendices of the actual novel.— TAnthonyTalk 22:48, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: 10,191 AG is the date in the book.

message: The Dune encyclopediaAuthor:	Willis E McNelly; Frank HerbertPublisher: New York: Berkley Books, ©1984.ISBN: 0425068137 9780425068137 0552991317 9780552991315
24.78.228.96 (talk) 03:10, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dune Encyclopedia was NOT authored or co-authored by Frank Herbert, just approved by him. It invents all kinds of plot detail and is not an acceptable source for this. The premise of 1945 is not in the appendices of the actual novel.— TAnthonyTalk 22:48, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: cite:

message: This article would benefit from more references and the fleshing out of some sections. Could you please clarify the reason for removing the added paragraph with references, TAnthony? —Catsandthings (talk) 06:36, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your message. I've just restored a paragraph that I accidentally removed during my last edit, is this what you're referring to? Sorry about that and thanks for the catch!— TAnthonyTalk 18:41, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding scholarly references

message: But another Leto II is apparently born in Dune Messiah. Is there a mistake? What happens to the first Leto II? 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:D50F:A654:4079:5F07 (talk) 07:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The first Leto II is murdered as an infant by the Sardaukar. Leto II the God Emperor (from Dune Messiah etc) is a different character.— TAnthonyTalk 16:16, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Paul takes a Fremen lover, Chani, and has a son with her, Leto II." 

message: I noticed that there is some disagreement about these edits discussing connections to the Arabic language. I know enough Arabic to see that the statements themselves are true, but without secondary sources their inclusion here looks like WP:SYNTHESIS.  do you know of any additional sources, beyond an Arabic dictionary/reference text, which specifically highlights that these Arabic words are notable in Dune? Unfortunately Khalid's blog does not strike me as a reliable source. It would also be good, I think, to go beyond just stating the connection, and indicate why people find it an interesting/meaningful connection. A google scholar search would be a good start and I'd be happy to help folks access paywalled articles, though I don't have time to do much writing myself right now. Pinging  as well since you've been interested. ~ L 🌸 (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the ping, yes obviously these additions were not properly sourced and definitely represent original research. I only gave a cursory explanation in my edit summary, but I understand that the nuances of sourcing at Wikipedia are complicated. I'm not disputing the validity of these observations or the translations, but as LEvalyn points out, we require reliable sources to make these connections and assert notability for the facts/examples.— TAnthonyTalk 18:51, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for Arabic connections? 

message: This section should be expanded because the separation of gender roles (e.g., Bene Gesserit, Guild) is stark in the novel and their interplay is critical to the plot. In particular, the breeding manipulations of the Bene Gesserit women aim to produce a Kwisatz Haderach, who must be male.
In addition, the Gom Jabbar test by Helen is not only a test of Paul’s spiritual development and an attempt by her to implant a hook of control in his mind, but also a begrudging willingness by a Bene Gesserit to consider that men are not animals who are slaves to their instincts. The conversation went something like this:
Paul: “Are you suggesting that I might be an animal?”
Helen: “I am suggesting that you might be a human.”
Then we have the treatment of noblewomen as pawns for marrying into a more favorable status. This leads to the dignified remark Jessica makes to Chani: “We are called concubines, but history will know us as wives.”
And finally there is the matter of Alia as the wildly independent woman, followed by the precocious female member of the twins fathered by Paul. Martindo (talk) 08:48, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead and be bold so long as it's not original research. ··gracefool 💬 12:01, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would if I still had a copy of the book. Come to think of it, that exchange between Jessica and Chani might have been in the 1984 movie not the novel. I opened this topic so people with motivation and access can address some key points. Martindo (talk) 21:34, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender dynamics