Talk:SoundSpel

message: Apparently, a number of perceived disadvantages - which were not sourced - were removed from the article, while perceived advantages - also not sourced - were kept. The "advantages" should be provided with a source or removed, because as it is they are just an opinion. And if they are sourced and kept, disadvantages should also be listed with sources. --Bonadea (talk) 13:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unbalanced article

message: The system does not represent phonetic spelling of words and it will not eliminate all of the problems that the current english spelling system has.  People will still be confused when they read other languages such as spanish which has a very regular phonetic spelling sytem.
:I agree. SoundSpel is easier to learn than our present system, but not as easy as a purely phonemic system. I think it has too many compromises (as in "Exceptions and other differences"), and the only compromises needed are the ones that maintain the connection between dialects, especially between General American and British Received pronunciation. The most phonetic pronunciation or spelling should win. For example, Americans prounounce the 'er ' at the end of words, while the British do not. Therefore, the 'er ' endings should be retained, to reflect the more distinct pronunciation. The British pronounce "missile" more like it is spelled than Americans do. So the spelling should be "misiel", not "misul."  SpellcheckW7 (talk) 02:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me, any item on a list of advantages or disadvantages should say, compared to what?  Compared to other proposals?  Compared to existing British orthography?  American?  Jim.henderson (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have addressed the relative advantages and disadvantages in my contributions. I don't think anyone who has read the article or knows about SoundSpel could argue with these, although there is only one source given (on the last advantage). -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 03:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Disadvantage

message: Looking for a reference for the statement, "SoundSpel has been endorsed by the American Literacy Council because English speakers can easily read it", I found 
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/soundspel/ .
This site mostly just copied what the Wikipedia article said at the time.
I found a good reference for the above statement from an article written by Rondthaler, who is the Chairman of the American Literacy Council (see http://americanliteracy.com/alc-board.htm). He uses the words "the American Literacy Council's 'SoundSpel'."
-SpellcheckW7 (talk) 21:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The "ae" in formulae is pronounced "ee" in several dialects, so I've replaced the word with "sundae". Custardslice7 (talk) 14:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: References, Changes

message: Seems to me, the majority of items in the "disadvantages" list, and some in the "advantages" list, apply to all or most proposed reforms.  Should the lists be edited to reflect this, or those items replaced by links to appropriate sections of English spelling reform?  Jim.henderson (talk) 20:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still working on improvements on these lists, but the main thing is getting them referenced. SpellcheckW7 (talk) 22:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

text: You did it. Thanks, Jim. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 05:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pro & con lists

message: I'm back, with two more questions. Firstly, because there are numerous words that differ only in a final [s] or [z] after a vowel -- examples include "gross/grows", "dice/dies", "horse/whores" -- can we use the digraph SS to represent a final [s] that's not a plural or verbal suffix? The examples I listed then become: groess/groes, diess/dies, horss/hors. I know there were already and continue to be many pairs or groups of different words that are spelt the same, but having a bit of extra distinguishability cheaply can't be a bad thing; and it would be a shame if someone wanted to write "I don't like orange juice" and was misunderstood :-)
My second question is: how is the "yor" phoneme represented (as in Europe, mural, fury, pure)? Is it "yor/yur" or something prettier, e.g. "eur"?
Custardslice7 (talk) 10:47, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Guys, I think I know the answer to my second question. Based on the fact that "eer" corresponds to the BE phoneme /I@/, I deduce that "uer" will correspond to /jO:/. If this is so, the article should perhaps be edited, for the benefit of BE speakers if not of AE ones et al as well. Custardslice7 (talk) 09:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

text: I've just read at [] that the above is correct, so have edited the article accordingly. Custardslice7 (talk) 09:13, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  SS and YOR 

message: I think I discovered a slight typo. The table documents that /iːr/ = <eer> as in "beer". I believe it is supposed to be /ɪɹ/ = <eer>.
The SoundSpel Converter turns "beer" into <beer> as the table indicates. But it also turns "ear" into <eer>, "near" into <neer>, and "here" into <heer>, and "weird" into <weerd>. You might think this is because "beer" and "weird" and "ear" all contain the long-e sound /i/ or /iː/. If they did, then Soundspel orthography might be being derived by combining long-e sound /iː/ <ee> with the /ɹ/ sound <r>. This would make /iːɹ/ = <ee + r> = <eer>.
But that isn't exactly how it works. You see "beer" and "ear" and "weird" are not pronounced that way.
 pronunciation table for select /ɪə(ɹ)/, /ɪɚ/, & /ɪ(ɹ)/ words
word                                                                                                                                              	IPA dialect-neutral English pronunciation                                                                                                         	RP pronunciation                                                                                                                                  	GA pronunciation                                                                                                                                  	other pronunciations                                                                                                                              	American Heritage Dictionary                                                                                                                      	SoundSpel
ear                                                                                                                                               	/ɪəɹ/                                                                                                                                             	/ɪə̯/                                                                                                                                             	/ɪɹ/,                                                                                                                                             	                                                                                                                                                  	îr                                                                                                                                                	eer
beer                                                                                                                                              	/bɪəɹ/                                                                                                                                            	/bɪə/, /bɪː/                                                                                                                                      	/bɪɹ/                                                                                                                                             	near–square merger: /bɛə/                                                                                                                         	bîr                                                                                                                                               	beer
near                                                                                                                                              	/nɪəɹ/                                                                                                                                            	/nɪə/                                                                                                                                             	/nɪɹ/                                                                                                                                             	near–square merger: /nɛə/                                                                                                                         	nîr                                                                                                                                               	neer
here                                                                                                                                              	/hɪəɹ/                                                                                                                                            	/hɪə/                                                                                                                                             	/hɪɹ/                                                                                                                                             	                                                                                                                                                  	hîr                                                                                                                                               	heer
seer                                                                                                                                              	/sɪəɹ/                                                                                                                                            	/sɪə/,                                                                                                                                            	/sɪəɹ/,                                                                                                                                           	                                                                                                                                                  	sîr                                                                                                                                               	
weird                                                                                                                                             	/wɪəɹd/                                                                                                                                           	/ ˈwɪəd/,                                                                                                                                         	, / 'wɪɚd/                                                                                                                                        	                                                                                                                                                  	wîrd                                                                                                                                              	weerd
Note that in RP the /ɹ/ sound is not pronounced at the end of a syllable or reduced to the /ə/ schwa sound. Also, note that /ɚ/ in "weird" = /əɹ/.	Note that in RP the /ɹ/ sound is not pronounced at the end of a syllable or reduced to the /ə/ schwa sound. Also, note that /ɚ/ in "weird" = /əɹ/.	Note that in RP the /ɹ/ sound is not pronounced at the end of a syllable or reduced to the /ə/ schwa sound. Also, note that /ɚ/ in "weird" = /əɹ/.	Note that in RP the /ɹ/ sound is not pronounced at the end of a syllable or reduced to the /ə/ schwa sound. Also, note that /ɚ/ in "weird" = /əɹ/.	Note that in RP the /ɹ/ sound is not pronounced at the end of a syllable or reduced to the /ə/ schwa sound. Also, note that /ɚ/ in "weird" = /əɹ/.	Note that in RP the /ɹ/ sound is not pronounced at the end of a syllable or reduced to the /ə/ schwa sound. Also, note that /ɚ/ in "weird" = /əɹ/.	Note that in RP the /ɹ/ sound is not pronounced at the end of a syllable or reduced to the /ə/ schwa sound. Also, note that /ɚ/ in "weird" = /əɹ/.
From this table we can see that all six of these words are generally pronounced with the /-ɪə(ɹ)/ sound: /ɪə/ or /ɪː/ in the RP and /ɪɹ/ or /ɪəɹ/ in GA. /ɪə/ is a diphthong in Received Pronunciation. The first five words all show up in the wiktionary page for words that rhyme with /-ɪə(r)/. "Weird" also contains /-ɪə(r)/ with the addition of /d/.
According to the Pronunciation Respelling for English Table, (îr) is the AHD respelling for /ɪəɹ/ (in IPA for dialect-neutral English pronunciation) and /ɪɹ/ (in IPA for General American pronunciation according to "A Pronouncing Dictionary of American English" (1944 [1953]), John S. Kenyon, Thomas A. Knott).
That means the /ɪəɹ/ = RP:/ɪə/ = GA:/ɪɹ/ or /ɪɚ/ = AHD:((îr)) = SoundSpel:<eer>. The only word in our table that does not follow this pattern in SoundSpel is "seer" which is rendered as <seeer> with three e's. We will come back to this in a minute.
The only pronunciations in the previous table that corresponds to something like /iːɹ/ are a US variant "ear" pronounced /iɹ/, variants of "seer" pronounced according to dialect-neutral notation as / siːə(ɹ)/, and variants of "weird" pronounced according to dialect-neutral notation as / 'wiːə(ɹ)d/. We can see that in Received Pronunciation (RP) when the /ɹ/ sound follows the /iː/ sound they cannot simply drop the /ɹ/ sound other wise the word would be indistinguishable from words that are identical except for the final /ɹ/ sound. So "seer" would sound identical to "see" unless they add the final /ə/ schwa sound. So "seer" sounds something like (see-uh). This means that /iːɹ/ is roughly equivalent to RP:/iːə/ and GA:/iɹ/ and could be written as /iːə(ɹ)/ in dialect-neutral notation.
According to the Pronunciation Respelling for English Table and the Phonetic notation of the American Heritage Dictionary, /iːr/, /iːə/, /iɹ/, and /iːə(ɹ)/ do not even have official phonemic respellings.
The only words I can find that rhyme with /-iːə(ɹ)/ or /-iə(ɹ)/ are "freer," "skier," and "seer." However, the pronunciation and phonetic notation of these words are not always given in dictionaries because they are listed under their lemma or dictionary forms: "free," "ski," and "see."
These words -- which are pronounced /fɹiː/, /skiː/, and /siː/ -- all contain the so-called long-e sound /iː/ as in the FLEECE lexical set which is respelled ((ē)) by the AHD system. Therefore, these words are respelled as ((frē)), ((skē)), and ((sē)). When adding the /ər/ sound to these words you might combine the /iː/ sound with the /ər/ sound, which is respelled ((er)) as in butter.
Therefore:
root word	root word	root word	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/             	word + agent suffix /ər/             	word + agent suffix /ər/             	word + agent suffix /ər/             	word + agent suffix /ər/             	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/	word + agent suffix /ər/
         	IPA      	AHD      	                        	dialect-neutral English pronunciation	dialect-neutral English pronunciation	dialect-neutral English pronunciation	dialect-neutral English pronunciation	dialect-neutral English pronunciation	AHD                     	AHD                     	AHD                     	AHD                     	AHD                     	SoundSpel               	SoundSpel               	SoundSpel               	SoundSpel               	SoundSpel               	
         	         	         	-eer                    	iː                                   	+                                    	əɹ                                   	=                                    	-iː . əɹ                             	ē                       	+                       	ər                      	=                       	-ē-ər                   	ee                      	+                       	er                      	=                       	-eeer                   	
free     	fɹiː     	frē      	freer                   	fɹiː                                 	+                                    	əɹ                                   	=                                    	'fɹiː . əɹ                           	frē                     	+                       	ər                      	=                       	frē-ər                  	free                    	+                       	er                      	=                       	freeer                  	
ski      	skiː     	skē      	skier                   	skiː                                 	+                                    	ər                                   	=                                    	'skiː . əɹ                           	skē                     	+                       	ər                      	=                       	skē-ər                  	skee                    	+                       	er                      	=                       	                        	
see      	siː      	sē       	seer                    	siː                                  	+                                    	ər                                   	=                                    	'siː . er                            	sē                      	+                       	ər                      	=                       	sē-ər                   	see                     	+                       	er                      	=                       	seeer                   	
The only word that does not actually fit this pattern is "skier." The SoundSpel Converter does not transform "skier" at all, rendering it as "skier." Leaving "skier" unchanged is either a bug in the converter software or an inconsistency in the SoundSpel system.
Therefore, we would get the following table:
 pronunciation table of /iːə(ɹ)/ & /iː(ɹ)/ words
word 	IPA dialect-neutral English pronunciation	RP pronunciation	GA pronunciation	other pronunciations	American Heritage Dictionary	SoundSpel
freer	/ 'fɹiː . əɹ/                            	/ 'fiː . ə/     	/ 'fri . əɹ/    	??                  	frē-ər                      	freeer
skier	/ 'skiː . əɹ/                            	/ 'skiː . ə/    	/ 'ski . əɹ/    	?? /skɪə̯/          	skē-ər                      	, skeeer
seer 	/ 'siː . eɹ/                             	/ 'siː . ə/     	/ 'si . əɹ/     	                    	sē-ər                       	seeer
There are two different pronunciations of "seer" depending, in part on definition, / 'siː . eɹ/ meaning a person who sees, and /sɪəɹ/ meaning a person who prophesies or known to have powers of divination. The first ought to be respelled AHD:((sē-er)) SoundSpel:<seeer> and the second AHD:((sîr)) SoundSpel:<seer>.
word	IPA         	AHD    	SoundSpel
seer	/sɪəɹ/      	(sîr)  	<seer>
seer	/ 'siː . eɹ/	(sē-ər)	<seeer>
It seems to me that SoundSpel simply choose one of the two morphologies since the two pronunciations and meanings are so close anyway. This explains why "seer" was spelled wrong in the first table under the SoundSpel column.
To conclude, it seems that SoundSpel intends to translate /ɪə(ɹ)/, /ɪɚ/, & /ɪ(ɹ)/ into <eer> not /iːə(ɹ)/ & /iː(ɹ)/. The /iːə(ɹ)/ sound is a combination of the /iː/ sound respelled as <ee> and the /ə(ɹ)/ sound respelled as <er> to form <eeer>. The following table explains this.
IPA                   	AHD              	SoundSpel         	Example
/ɪə(ɹ)/               	(îr)             	<eer>             	beer
/iːə(ɹ)/ = /iː + ə(ɹ)/	(ē + ər) = (ē-ər)	<ee + er> = <eeer>	freer becomes freeer
Is there any official documentation I can check my hypothesis against?
Ryan Close (talk) 23:22, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible Typo concerning <eer>