Talk:Propertarianism

message: From reading this article, Propertarianism seems like just a nice nerdy economic philosophy. But this paints a grossly misleading picture of what present day Propertarians believe. A cursory reading of e.g. https://propertarianinstitute.com/?s=jews shows how integral "The Jews" as a archetypical enemy is in the Propertarian writings. It feels like having a Wikipedia article about Nazism and focusing only on Hitler's programs for economic development, leaving out all mention Jews. Superficially NPOV, but in reality extremely POV by omission.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.23.224.121 (talk) 22:27, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Curt Doolittle used to be mentioned in the article, but it was removed some time ago. He should be included, if you ask me. Benjamin (talk) 00:55, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article doesn't mention the antisemitic fascism inherent to present day Propertarianism 

message: 1) The term Propertarian evolved like capitalism as a criticism of libertarians as "an obsession with property". The term 'Propertarianism' was not used. Never used that I know of. There were that I know of, only a few existing uses in the literature.  This information was present in this article and has been deleted. Restored here for reference:
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Historian Marcus Cunliffe used it in 1973 lectures to apply to "characteristic values of American history" in regard to property.[1][2][3][4] Hans Morgenthau used it in a more limited way to characterize the connection between property and suffrage.[5] It appears that the term was coined (in its most recent sense, at least) by Edward Cain, in 1963:
... Since [Libertarians'] use of the word "liberty" refers almost exclusively to property, it would be helpful if we had some other word, such as "propertarian," to describe them. [....] Ayn Rand .... is the closest to what I mean by a propertarian.[6]
L. Neil Smith describes propertarianism as a positive libertarian philosophy in his novels The Probability Broach (1980) and The American Zone‎ (2002).[7][8]
Ronald Hamowy describes Murray Rothbard's form of libertarianism as "propertarian" because he "reduced all human rights to rights of property, beginning with the natural right of self-ownership."[9] Rothbardian libertarian anarchism or anarcho-capitalism advocate that property only may originate by being the product of labor, and may then only legitimately change hands by trade or gift. They term this as "neo-Lockean".[10] Other libertarians question the self-ownership view on the grounds people can't be property, even of themselves, and that by ignoring the psychological aspects of being, the viewpoint downplays the concept that "liberty defined by self-determination is the control of choice in human life and development."[11]
David Boaz writes that the "propertarian approach to privacy," both morally and legally, has ensured Americans' privacy rights.[12]
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2) The term Propertarianism refers to a specific discipline and political movement that I have spent the past decade advancing. Any search by google or bing will return the rather obvious result. I know it is pointless to comment here but we (The Propertarian Institute) are saturated with requests to update this page to assist those who complain that they can't find it on Wikipedia. 
3) The increase in the use of the term Propertarian is the result of the increase in awareness of Propertarianism and the related popularization of the term. Again, this is obvious from a search on any engine. 
4) Eschewing the traditional journal route is common practice in reactionary and dissident movements worldwide, since it is no longer of value or necessity. 
5) Our experience with Wiki is (a) inability to disambiguate this distinction between the criticism "propertarian", and the project and movement "Propertarianism", in order to 'fit' want of a noun, thereby misrepresenting history and present, and (b) active suppression because it is wiki policy to actively suppress selective ideas. 
Cheers  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.114.17.110 (talk) 12:51, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation and Confusion by Editorial 'fitting' 

message: :Any additional comments:
Actually, propertarian can be a noun, just as libertarian can be either an adjective (he had a libertarian philosophy) or a noun (he was a libertarian).
L. Neil Smith and I got into a bit of a harangue about this issue of his inventing the term "propertarian" for use in his book _The Probability Broach_.  Obviously, Le Guin used the term anti-propertarian in her works.  So, I went to the Oxford English Dictionary, which was open at the time, and found uses for the term going back well into the 19th Century.  
The terms propertarian and anti-propertarian are used to describe, among other things, two schools of anarchist thought.  I don't currently have access to the OED site, but the term probably shows up in their dictionary along with their usual etymology references.
A brief letter on the subject:
http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2001/libe146-20011105-01.html#letter3
Urban Dictionary gives a brief, 2005 definition.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=propertarian
It seems odd that there are no citations on this page.
Planetaryjim (talk) 09:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: Except probably for a couple novels which aren't ref'd and an occasional mention here and there - which aren't mentioned here, there really are no WP:RS showing that anyone uses this term in any notable fashion. People should work on that. CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed WP:OR and put in sourced material only. To keep the article in compliance with policy, please do not add a lot of personal philosophy without any sources or with self-published non-reliable sources. Thanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mostly original research 

message: All philosophical positions have specific names for specific movements for the purpose of argumentative clarity, with specific metaphysical or argumentative criteria.  See the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy for examples.  Or see various wikipedia articles under say, Realism and Naturalism.  Or anarcho-capitalism vs Agorism.
Propertarian and Propertarianism are different terms, and we may want to write about  'propertarian', which is a looser definition,  then create a disambiguation page, and link to a new page that disambiguates 'propertarian' as a general label for libertarianism from 'Propertarianism' as a specific discipline with specific criteria.  It may be that agorism and and anarcho capitalism are propertarian, but they are not forms of propertarianism, because in each case the other systems of thought include specific criteria that distinguishes one from the other: agorism is a boycott strategy under the assumption that boycott is sufficient to enact change, and anarcho capitalism is a research program which seeks to provide private solutions to public services (see Hoppe) and to justify those solutions as morally absolute (Rothbard).  
Propertarianism does not make this claim. It simply says that all rights are reducible to property rights, and therefore all moral codes can be expressed as different allocations of property rights between the common and the private. It does not assume a single absolute morality, in either common or private property rights, or even a preferable morality from the combination of property rights that are possible.  It says only that knowing that there is no uniform moral code, because of the different abilities of groups,  it is only logical that we attempt to accommodate different moral codes in government the way we accommodate different ends in the market by cooperating on means by exchanges instead of ends by majority rule.  This is a very narrow position.  Like all philosophical positions that are clearly articulated.
Criticism is warranted and valuable, however, the criticism should be specific to the narrow constraint of the definition of Propertarianism, by arguing what all rights are not reducible to property rights, or that morals are not made commensurable by doing so - not why libertarianism in general may or may not have flaws. Those criticisms belong to libertarianism in general, or to those other philosophical positions that are propertarian-like, but not to this particular statement.
And criticism should separate 'propertarian' in the broader sense, from 'propertarianism' in the specific sense.
Thanks  
Curtd59 (talk) 13:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I put back material you deleted. In Wikipedia we go by what sources about the topic say. I don't see any reliable sources saying Propertarianism and propertarian are not related.  They are as related as libertarianism and libertarian. Now there may be different definitions of propertarianism like there are of libertarianism, but that does not mean you just delete the one you don't like. It means you explain the differences using reliable sources. Just find WP:Reliable sources and report what they say; if they agree with you fine. If they disagree, and you can't find any that agree, it's still our responsibility to report what sources say. User:Carolmooredc  14:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation 

message: Propertarianism refers to a logical methodology that attempts to express all ethical, moral, and political questions as consisting of various forms of property that can be voluntarily exchanged - under the theory that all moral propositions are reducible to voluntary exchange of property obtained by first use or voluntary exchange.  The principle that the voluntary exchange of property could form the basis for all human cooperation evolves from John Locke, through the nineteenth century British and American authors, and in the postwar period was used systematically by American libertarians. 
USAGE
The term is used casually to suggest that all questions of liberty are reducible to a statements of property and its voluntary transfer; more accurately, that property rights are deontologically constructed necessities of human existence under natural law; and formally to refer to a complete system of philosophy named 'Propertarianism' for the analysis and criticism of all political moral and ethical questions.  
In grammatically correct usage, one makes a propertarian argument; one ‘is’ a propertarian if he holds ideological bias in favor of its use; one relies upon propertarian reasoning if he can make use of it, or one advocates propertarianism in some manner or other; and the name of the fully articulated formal philosophy is Propertarianism.
Propertarianism, (capitalized) for the explicit philosophy; and lower case for 'propertarian', which is used to refer to all three senses: "Locke was the first to state a propertarian argument."  
DIFFERENCES FROM LIBERTARIANISM
Propertarianism is a logical system for the rational comparison, and logical decidability, of human moral propositions across all possible moral codes. Libertarianism is an ideological system of thought for the purpose of either obtaining political power, denying others political power, or bringing about a particular social and ethical system that relies upon propertarian arguments as the first principle of legal decidability under rule of law. 
Curtd59 (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propertarianism 

message: An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Curt Doolittle. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so.  signed, Rosguill talk 18:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Curt Doolittles "propertarianism" is a misnomer - it should be called "reciprocism." Doolittles conception is pretty much the opposite of support for private property. He considers any and all interests and "stake holding" to be legitimate property, and as a consequence supports all sorts of collectivism and statism. E.g. The right to stone homosexuals or to prevent abortions are a property in his system, so long as those are the collective's norms. His propertarianism.org page is basically a 'bait and switch' trying to sucker libertarians into his collectivist anti-propertarian system. PhilLiberty (talk) 17:03, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Curt Doolittle listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: REGARDING THIS PAGE AND THE REDIRECT.
SEE THIS FROM:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Curtd59#Hi%21
: Thanks for taking the time to reply. Do you know if there are any reliable sources that show how influential you are within Propertarianism? Another editor there was going to remove all mention of you from the article, but I've also heard that you're the one who basically invented it. Benjamin  01:32, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said before, are there any sources? Benjamin (talk) 22:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding Redirect: Options =

message: >Propertarian ideals are most commonly cited to advocate for a minarchist or stateless society with governance systems limited to enforcing contracts and private property.
This is literally the definition of capitalism. "Propertarian" is a slur against capitalists invented by the left. This page shouldn't exist  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.58.193.182 (talk) 16:06, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  This should be merged with Capitalism