Talk:Gdańsk/Archive 8

message: The protection status of this page is being administered by Mkweise and User:John Kenney. One of them will unprotect this page once consensus is reached.
:A page has been created under the Cities Project: /Names issues, for the purpose of creating a consensus agreement for the wording of the intro paragraph of all cities that had alternate official spellings. Please join us there and help us hammer out a wording that we can all live with, and use to prevent endless, eternal edit wars, not just for Gdansk, but for all cities with alternate official spellings in "modern" history. Bwood 00:44, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: Following text was removed by Nico:
On September 1, 1939, German troops invaded Poland, initiating World War II. On September 2 Germany officially annexed the Free City. The Nazi regime murdered the Polish postmen defending the Polish Post Office after the COF: this was one of the first war crimes during WWII.
Please restore the proper version.Cautious 22:45, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Murdered postman

message: Ladies and gentlemen, since this page is now very long, messy and hard to follow, I decided to prepare a short list of all arguments used and proposals submitted.
It's available HERE - User:Halibutt/Gdansk
If I omitted any arguments - please add them, but please be so kind as to respect neutrality. I'm personally involved in the discussion, but I hope this won't be a problem here.
Please feel free to add new arguments to the list, but please be brief, informative and do not repeat the already-existing statements.Halibutt 14:14, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Günter Grass is half Kashub, half German, grown-up during Nazi times. By the way, Mickiewicz refers to Gdansk by Gdansk in  "Pan Tadeusz". "City of Gdansk that used to be users, will be again ours" Cautious 11:53, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Gdansk/Danzig issue Reference Page

message: Gdansk was and is a Polish city. The Poles are hospitable people and many nations and etnic groups were invited to Poland (including Gdansk) to stay here and find a better life. They were guaranteed an etnic, language and economic freedom and tolerance. So the many etnic groups lived together peacufully for the common good and prosperity. The problems in Gdansk started when the Germans started to do nasty things to the Poles claiming that this is no longer a Polish city. During WWII the German Nazis started even to kill the Poles and expell them from a Polish city. It is disgusting that the people like Nico were thoaght nothing from the WWII lesson and they still do nasty things to the Polish cities and Polish pople.Mestwin of Gdansk 22:44, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  We were in Gdansk, we are in Gdansk, we will be in Gdansk 

message: Cautious asked for a source for the 100 000 dead Danzigers. Here is one, from Zentrum gegen Vertreibungen (http://www.z-g-v.de/aktuelles/?id=56 ). It's also the German view on the history of the city, which is quite different from that of our Polish friends here. As most Poles learn German I think I may post this here. At least Cautious said he speak German.
Als deutsche Stadt wurde Danzig 1224/25 noch innerhalb des Fürstentums Pommerellen (etwa Gebiet des späteren Westpreußen westlich der Weichsel) gegründet. Als Kaufmanns-, Handels- und Hafenstadt erlangte sie große Bedeutung im Ostseeraum. Als Stadt eigenen Rechts war sie vom umliegenden - damals noch slawischen - Umland klar getrennt, wurde aber bald zu einem Ausgangspunkt der deutschen Besiedlung des weithin brachen Weichsellands. Mit Pommerellen kam Danzig 1308/09 an den Deutschen Orden und begab sich 1454 unter Wahrung seiner Rechte und Eigenständigkeit unter die Schutzhoheit der Krone Polens. Es behauptete sich mehr noch als andere Städte des sogenannten "Königlichen Preußen" auch nach der einseitigen und somit rechtswidrigen polnischen Eingliederungsakte von 1569 in den folgenden Jahrhunderten als nahezu unabhängige Stadtrepublik. In seiner wirtschaftlichen Blütezeit um 1650 hatte die deutsche Kaufmannsstadt Danzig fast 80.000 Einwohner (zu dieser Zeit: Hamburg 60.000, Breslau 30.000, Berlin 6.000).
In Zusammenhang mit der 2.Teilung Polens 1793 beschloß die Stadt aus eigenem Recht ihren Anschluß an das Königreich Preußen, dem sie bis 1918/20 angehörte - unterbrochen nur von einer von Napoleon erzwungenen Scheinselbständigkeit als "Freistaat" 1807-14. Von 1815-29 und seit 1878 war Danzig Hauptstadt der Provinz Westpreußen.
Der Versailler Vertrag trennte Danzig mit Umland von Preußen und Reich ab, sprach es jedoch nicht dem wiederhergestellten Polen zu, sondern konstruierte es 1920 als eigenen Staat "Freie Stadt Danzig" unter "Schutz" und Aufsicht der Alliierten, vertreten durch den Völkerbund bzw. einen Kommissar des Völkerbundes. Diese bizarre Konstruktion war zum einen dem polnischen Bestreben geschuldet, Danzig vom Reich zu trennen, zum anderen der Tatsache, daß man das Gebiet wegen seiner demographischen Verhältnisse unmöglich ohne weiteres Polen zuschlagen konnte:
Von den 330.000 Menschen, die 1910 in dem knapp 2.000 qkm großen Gebiet lebten, sprachen über 95 Prozent Deutsch, knapp drei Prozent Polnisch, weniger als ein Prozent waren Kaschuben oder Masuren. 1923, also nach der Abtrennung vom Reich, gaben sogar 97,6 Prozent der Bevölkerung Deutsch als Muttersprache an (Polnisch, Kaschubisch, Masurisch: zwei Prozent). Bei den freien Parlaments-(Volkstags-)wahlen vom Mai 1933 entfielen 3,2 Prozent der Stimmen auf polnische Listen.
Noch am Tag des Kriegsbeginn 1.9.1939 wurde der Wiederanschluß des Gebiets der "Freien Stadt Danzig" an Deutschland proklamiert. Bis 1945 war Danzig nunmehr Hauptstadt des "Reichsgau Danzig-Westpreußen". 
Etwa 22.000 deutsche Danziger fielen im Krieg. Von den 1945 etwa 407.000 im Gebiet der Freien Stadt Danzig lebenden Menschen sind über 100.000 bei Flucht, Vertreibung und Deportation umgekommen.
Nach der Einnahme Danzigs durch sowjetische und polnische Truppen am 27.3.1945 kam während der Besatzungszeit und während der Ausweisungen jeder fünfte Danziger gewaltsam oder aufgrund der Umstände ums Leben oder blieb vermißt.
1950 lebten in Westdeutschland 225.000 Danziger, in der SBZ etwa 60.000. Ab Juni 1945 bestand in Lübeck bereits ein "Danziger Hilfskomitee". Im April 1946 zunächst von den Alliierten verboten, wurde dann im August 1948 der Bund der Danziger als landsmannschaftliche Vereinigung gegründet. Ausgehend von der Völkerrichtswidrigkeit der zwei Annexionen von 1939 und 1945 und vom de-jure-Fortbestand der "Freien Stadt Danzig" besteht seit 1947 die "Rat der Danziger", der die Interessen der deutschen Danziger nach außen wahrnimmt. Patenstadt der Danziger ist Düsseldorf.
Nico 08:42, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this passage: Etwa 22.000 deutsche Danziger fielen im Krieg. Von den 1945 etwa 407.000 im Gebiet der Freien Stadt Danzig lebenden Menschen sind über 100.000 bei Flucht, Vertreibung und Deportation umgekommen. say that 22.000 Germans of Gdansk fell during the WWII, while out of 407.000 inhabitants of the city in 1945 over 100.00 were subject of expulsion, evacuation and deportation?Halibutt 10:29, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, "umgekommen" does mean "lost their lives". However, we should be cautious about blindly copying numerical estimates from a possibly biased source like that and either verify from other sources be explicit as to the source of the estimate. I just checked the German article ; it does not give any casualty figures. Mkweise 16:52, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 100 000 dead Danzigers

message: === interlinks ===
csb:Gduńsk
da:Gdansk
de:Danzig
en:Gdansk
eo:Gdansko
fr:Gdansk
is:Gdańsk
it:Danzica
ja:グダニスク
la:Gedania
nds:Danzig
nl:Gdansk
no:Gdansk
pl:Gdańsk
ru:Гданьск
sv:Gdansk
=== Major corporations ===
* Grupa Lotos SA, Gdansk
* Energa Gdańska Kompania Energetyczna SA, Gdansk
* GE Capital Bank SA, Gdansk
* Gdańska Stocznia Remontowa SA, Gdansk
* Elnord SA, Gdansk
* Elektrociepłownie Wybrzeże SA, Gdansk
* LPP SA, Gdansk
* Polnord Energobudowa SA, Gdansk
:I'm not sure we need those. Halibutt 21:31, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also: 

message: * Grupa Lotos SA, Gdansk
* Energa Gdańska Kompania Energetyczna SA, Gdansk
* GE Capital Bank SA, Gdansk
* Gdańska Stocznia Remontowa SA, Gdansk
* Elnord SA, Gdansk
* Elektrociepłownie Wybrzeże SA, Gdansk
* LPP SA, Gdansk
* Polnord Energobudowa SA, Gdansk
:I'm not sure we need those. Halibutt 21:31, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major corporations 

message: Be sure to include the table at 
Halibutt 21:31, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table 

message: === Members of European Parliament (MEPs) from Gdansk ===
* Janusz Lewandowski, PO - economist, leader of Gdansk liberals, former minister of privatization
* Anna Fotyga, PO - economist, Solidarity adviser, former vice-president (mayor) of Gdansk
=== Gdansk constituency ===
Members of Parliament (Sejm) elected from Gdansk constituency
* Jolanta Banach, SLD-UP 
* Tadeusz Cymański , PiS
* Danuta Hojarska, Samoobrona 
* Lech Kaczyński , PiS
* Janusz Lewandowski, PO -> 2004 MEP
* Andrzej Liss, PiS
* Jerzy Młynarczyk, SLD-UP
* Małgorzata Ostrowska, SLD-UP
* Grażyna Paturalska, PO
* Maciej Płażyński, PO
* Franciszek Potulski, SLD-UP 
* Edmund Stachowicz, SLD-UP
* Gertruda Szumska, LPR
----
PolishPoliticians 04:17, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics 

message: Members of Parliament (Sejm) elected from Gdansk constituency
* Jolanta Banach, SLD-UP 
* Tadeusz Cymański , PiS
* Danuta Hojarska, Samoobrona 
* Lech Kaczyński , PiS
* Janusz Lewandowski, PO -> 2004 MEP
* Andrzej Liss, PiS
* Jerzy Młynarczyk, SLD-UP
* Małgorzata Ostrowska, SLD-UP
* Grażyna Paturalska, PO
* Maciej Płażyński, PO
* Franciszek Potulski, SLD-UP 
* Edmund Stachowicz, SLD-UP
* Gertruda Szumska, LPR
----
PolishPoliticians 04:17, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gdansk constituency 

message: I think we are ready for the final solution of all editing issuses at Wikipedia.
* Rule 1: User:John Kenney is ALWAYS right.  + 
* Rule 2: if User John Kenney is WRONG apply rule 1.  + 
Please cast your votes now:
 
Yes
* Yes, yes, yes, Yes, yes, yes,
* Yes, yes, yes, Yes, yes, yes, Yes, yes, yes, Yes, yes, yes.
No
* apply rule 1
 
Abstain
* apply rule 1
 
Sounds good to me...I'd prefer the rule "User:Whateverthefuckyourecallingyourselftoday is always wrong", but, as Mick Jagger reminds us, we can't always get what we want. john k 07:04, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: John, I do not want to take part in your dispute with PolishPoliticians since I find it a bit too barbaric (from both sides, to be sincere). However, I believe that if it's you who erased a part of the article without even looking at it (I guess it was just a reversion of someones' edit), then you should feel obliged to correct the mistake. It's been two weeks since PolishPoliticians posted the links to two new Polish MEPs and the sport clubs - and there was not even a single voice against adding them back. If I were you, I would put them back and apologize for erasing them. Halibutt 22:43, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)
=== Polish MEPs ===
I do insist that links to the articles about two new Members of European Parliament: Janusz Lewandowski and Anna Fotyga are included in the Gdansk article. I have gathered info and written the articles, please do NOT arease them again, OK? PolishPoliticians 21:57, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final compromise solution 

message: I do insist that links to the articles about two new Members of European Parliament: Janusz Lewandowski and Anna Fotyga are included in the Gdansk article. I have gathered info and written the articles, please do NOT arease them again, OK? PolishPoliticians 21:57, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish [[MEP]]s 

message: Please add this line to the sporting section when possible:
* Lechia Gdańsk - men football team (Polish Cup winner 1983, Polish Supercup winner 1983; 3rd league in 2004/2005 season) 
Football in Poland 16:30, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lechia Gda&#324;sk: [[Polish Cup]] winner [[1983]] 

message: * Energa Gedania Gdańsk - women's volleyball team playing in Polish Seria A Women's Volleyball League: 9th place in 2003/2004 season.
EBL 20:08, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Energa Gedania Gda&#324;sk 

message: * Nata AZS AWFiS Gdańsk - women's handball team playing in Polish Ekstraklasa Women's Handball League: Polish Champion in 2003/2004 season.
EBL 20:57, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nata AZS AWFiS Gdansk 

message: ::::Please kindly remove the Kashubian translation: Kashubian: Królewszczi Polszczi Gard Gduńsk.''
This name is never used in Kashubian. Its mentioning is only aimed at irritating Kashubians.
Besides, masculine adjectives in Kashubian never end with -szczi, but always with -sczi.
If you want to add an additional Kashubian name, you may add: Stoleczny Kaszëbsczi Gard Gduńsk. UCZK
:::The name The Royal Polish City of Gdansk...Regia Civitas Polonica Gedanensis comes from the book Historia Gdańska (there also a picture there). It was the official name used by the local government authorities. I think the section should stay PolishPoliticians 19:27, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Kashubian Capital City Gda&#324;sk 

message: I have removed the controvercial text, as they do not belong to the Gdansk article: The coast was called  'Gothiscandza' by Jordanes; Tacitus also referred to it in his 'Germania'.  Both historians believed the area to be populated. 
=== Jordanes about the Goths: ===
Jordanes book is full of legends, an it says the Goths sailed from the island of Scandia/Scandza to the lower coast of the Ocean with 3 ships and their new land was called 'Gothiscandza'. As a next step they attacked the 'Ulmerugii' (Island Rugians).
As you can see the Jordanes says nothing about Gdansk, and gives no clue where the Gohiscandza land was located. Scandia island is usually identified with Scandinavia peninsula or Gotland island, the ocean is usually identified with the Baltic Sea and the North Sea, Ulmerugii are usually identified with the inhabitants of Ruegen island.
The results are:
* We don't know where the mysterious Gothiscandza land was located
* Gothiscandza was most probably located in Holstein or Mecklenburg not necessary oposite to Ruegen island
* Gothiscandza (Gothic End??) could also be the Scania peninsula, southern part of Scandivavia
PolishPoliticians 23:03, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing mysterious Gothiscandza land 

message: Jordanes book is full of legends, an it says the Goths sailed from the island of Scandia/Scandza to the lower coast of the Ocean with 3 ships and their new land was called 'Gothiscandza'. As a next step they attacked the 'Ulmerugii' (Island Rugians).
As you can see the Jordanes says nothing about Gdansk, and gives no clue where the Gohiscandza land was located. Scandia island is usually identified with Scandinavia peninsula or Gotland island, the ocean is usually identified with the Baltic Sea and the North Sea, Ulmerugii are usually identified with the inhabitants of Ruegen island.
The results are:
* We don't know where the mysterious Gothiscandza land was located
* Gothiscandza was most probably located in Holstein or Mecklenburg not necessary oposite to Ruegen island
* Gothiscandza (Gothic End??) could also be the Scania peninsula, southern part of Scandivavia
PolishPoliticians 23:03, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jordanes about the Goths: 

message: Please be adviced that other Polish cities also use the celebrative names like:
* The Royal Capital City of Cracow
* The Capital City of Poznan
*  The Capital City of Warsaw
I think the name of The Polish Royal City of Gdańsk and the Kashubian Capital City of Gdańsk should stay in the article's header. PolishPoliticians 23:44, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't. You haven't even reached consensus in the Polish Wikipedia about long names for Gdansk in the header.  As an ignorant foreigner, I thought that Poland had one current capital: Warsaw.  I believe your suggestions will confuse casual readers. --Henrygb 01:24, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Polish Royal City of Gda&#324;sk =

message: I am on vacation now. My only access to internet is in my work, and - of course - normal people are NOT
going to work when on vacation. My wife made this absolutely clear. In fact, i'm affraid my life would be in danger if she would only knew why i came here :)
Anyway, that means that there would be another week before i could participate in any discussion. But i wanted to made a simple, modest proposition: a lot, and I mean a LOT of articles deals with people born in Danzig/Gdansk etc. And I am affraid that despite of compromise made with a lot of efforts those articles will be subject of endless revert wars every time when some new person will discover wikipedia. They of course would after some time find the compromise, stop behaving the radical way and respect the compromise, but while some may find repeating that process in some weird way amusing, i am not one of that persons. Well,
i - as all Poles - i DO like arguing, but not that much.
Therefore, what you would think about creating simple
message attached to every article dealing with cities from Royal Prussia, not only Danzig/Gdansk, saying something like that:
The question on using proper names for cities from region of Royal Prussia was object of long debate amongst wikipedians (E.g. whether someone was born in Danzig or in Gdansk). After many endless wars the compromise in form of "..." was made. Before you will start editing the article, please read what's in the _compromise_. You could also be interested in _debate_ about status of Royal Prussia and Danzig/Gdansk. (_links_ are _underlined_)
That way the newcomer will see that THERE IS worked out solution
and maybe will stop to start new revert wars. In linked articles they could learn about compromise
and arguments of all sides. It ain't pretty, it ain't perfect, but
it would work. And in article itself the
standard could be: first time in artcile when name appears,
most controversial names appear in form Danzig/Gdansk, later
the name most used in historical period is used.
What do you think? - Szopen
I don't think such a message should be in the article itself - could it be one of those no-show up things that come up when you edit? john k 11:40, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do start. Halibutt 19:06, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
I've started discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names). john k 22:23, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  szopen's proposition 

message: I think, given the recent edit wars, we need to return to discussion of what the city should be called during the period from 1454 to 1793 when it was part of the Polish Commonwealth as a largely self-governing city-state inhabited mostly by Germans.  This seems to be at the root of most of the controversy here.  As I've stated before, I'd prefer that we use Danzig for this period, but this was never agreed upon as a consensus position, and, indeed, various contributors argued strongly against such a policy.  Of course, this was all to be discussed in Talk:Gdansk/Naming convention, but that page seems to be dormant.  Perhaps we should all resort to there to try to iron something out... john k 19:38, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming of city in early modern times 

message: I agree with Halibutt:
Halibutt (German names of the rivers belong to those rivers' articles, not here. Otherwise we'd have to give alternative German words for all names in this article.) " Bwood 03:43, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  River names 

message: John, please justify your position that the German name *has* to be bold. I've been spearheading a drive to make all articles about current Polish communities that were under Prussian/German control use a standard format, that has been agreed to be a majority of Wiki contributors. I would ask for a  strong reason to deviate from the standard, otherwise we have eternal edit wars. Bwood 13:18, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  German name in bold