Talk:Babrak Karmal

message: On 12 January 2008 Cruizi had added "According to most people in Afghanistan, he was an ethnic Tajik or Qizilbash." to the "Early years" section without providing a citation.
On 12 January 2008 Anoshirawan substituted the following for Cruizi's material the "Early years" section, again without citation: 
:According to most people in Afghanistan, he was an ethnic Kashmiri from his father's side and an ethnic Musakhel Pashtun from his mother's side. 
The next day, 13 January 2008, Cruizi replaced Anoshirawan's version with the following text that included a citation:
:His ethnicity is unclear but many claim that he was Persian-speaking Tajik or Qizilbash.Biography of President Babrak Karmal  
The Biography said "Karmal's ethnic background is rather hazy, as was common among those born in or near Kabul, but most agree that he was Tajik or Qizilbash, Persian-speaking background."
Again on 13 January 2008, Anoshirawan deleted Cruizi's version and restored his own version, adding a citation:
: Mohammed Kakar , P: "Afghanistan: The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982",  University of California Press, 1997
However, the book cited doesn't quite say what Anoshirawan shortened it to.  The text cited to, begins in the middle of page 65 and continues briefly onto page 66.  It starts with "Karmal was born in 1929 in the village of Karmari to the east of the city of Kabul," and may be read in its entirety at Google Books, HERE.
The fact remains that ethnicity is disputed and hazy, and should be acknowledged as such, if it is important to the article, or otherwise it should be kept out of the article. --Bejnar (talk) 06:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is sourced with a reliable reference published by University of California and it is important to the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by RussianRoket (talk • contribs) 07:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The preceding comment was by a sockpuppet of banned editor Beh-nam.  But to answer it, if you read the Afghanistan: The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982 text you can see that it is mostly inuendo.  For example, "The fact that Karmal's ancestors had immigrated to Kabul, Karmel's statement that he was Pashtun, the fact that his father was not a Pashtun, and his father's reluctance to admit that he was a Tajik -- all these make it doubtful that the family was Tajik originally, although they were integrated into that group.  It is the custom in Afghanistan for a person of no ethnic significance to relate himself to the thnic group into which he has been intergrated.  Not all Pasto-speaking Afghans are Pashtuns, and not all Persian-speaking Afghans are Tajiks.  Karmal went against the custom.  This means that, ethnically speaking, the family was insignificant." pp.65-66.  Karmel's ethnicity is hazy and in doubt.  It would only be meaningful or important if the politics and inuendo was addressed in the article, not just one side or the other. Write a proposed balenced statement here on the talk page and maybe we can reach consensus.  Meanwhile, his ethnicity remains contested, with each side siting a source, neither of which is entirely unbiased. --Bejnar (talk) 17:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  What the book is saying is he a "Tajikized" Kashmiri/Pashtun. BEIJINGBOY2 (talk) 17:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't say book, I said source.  The source cited by Cruizi was the Biography of President Babrak Karmal at Afghanland.com; which source said, "Karmal's ethnic background is rather hazy, as was common among those born in or near Kabul, but most agree that he was Tajik or Qizilbash, Persian-speaking background." Another source is Rasanayagam, Angelo (2003) Afghanistan: A Modern History: Monarchy, despotism or democracy?: The problems of governance in the Muslim tradition I.B. Tauris, London, , which says on page 47: "Karmal (a Ghilzai Pushtun, although it has been alleged by his detractors that his family was of Tajik origin)".  --Bejnar (talk) 20:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  another source, Hussain, Rizwan (2005) Pakistan and the emergence of Islamic militancy in Afghanistan Ashgate, Aldershot, England, , says on page 95 "Babrak Karmal came from a mixed Pashtun-Tajik ancestry." --Bejnar (talk) 21:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Afghanland.com is NOT a reliable source. All the other three sources (including your sources) say he was atleast half Pashtun. BEIJINGBOY2 (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The point is not so much what exactly they say, the point is that reliable sources do not agree.  Asserting that his father's family had Kashmire roots is not helpful in this environment.  --Bejnar (talk) 01:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnicity

message: The introduction of this article POV. It is also excessively long, and digresses from the point. I am changing it to an NPOV introduction that sticks to the aim of such an introduction. CMarshall (talk) 12:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction POV

message: I changed the date of his death from 3 December 1996 to 1 December 1996, referenced by a NY Times article. In searching the web, I found many articles that used the 3 December date. I am guessing that most of those based that on the Wikipedia article. Does anyone have a good reference for 3 December? Peter Chastain (talk) 14:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Encyclopedia Britannica (I got a one-week free trial, normally about $70/year) gives the date of his death as 3 December. I sent them feedback, based on the NY Times article, and in their reply they referenced a Washington Post article which says he died on 3 December. I will edit our article to reflect this uncertainty. Peter Chastain (talk) 12:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Death Date

message: This article states that Karmal was an indifferent student in high school. Do we have any references for this? Also, the current Spanish version of this article states that he attended a German high school in the Nazi era ("durante la época de influencia nazi"). Karmal indeed was graduated in 1948 from Amani High School (aka Lycee Nejat), which, according to the English Wikipedia article, received support and staffing from Germany. In a brief web search, I could not find when he entered the school, nor any indication that there was Nazi activity there or that Karmal was influenced by it, which leads me to believe that the Nazi reference is irrelevant and should be removed from Spanish Wikipedia (or at least not added here). Does anyone have information about this? Peter Chastain (talk) 14:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: High School

message: In 'Early life' he is born as 'Sultan Hashem' but this is contradicted in the lead, which states 'Babrak Hashem'—can we resolve this? --Greenmaven (talk) 07:49, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth name confusion 

message: Good morning,
I have undertaken the request on the GOCE page to copyedit this article. I intend to finish today, by evening EST, and will submit the overall completed edit for review. At this time, you may view version changes to the lead section and the section on early life and career. Thank you. TheFurorDivinus (talk) 16:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent work! :) --TIAYN (talk) 08:30, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyediting 

message: Substituted at 08:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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