Talk:Arab European League

message: I note that my insertion of the Salon link was reverted by an editor on the grouds that it is not "open source." But references do not have to be; its okay to list a book as a reference for example, even though a book must be purchased. Also, the current version has some polemical claims, i.e. that the AEL has at most a dozen activists, some under 18. --Pierremenard 01:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could not access the Salon article but I take your word for it that it contains accusations of anti-semitism, homophobia, and probably child molestation, treason and drug dealing. Still, who makes these accusations? Wouldn't it be helpful to identify the accuser rather than just say, "Some people believe the AEL is anti-semitic". --68.214.59.196 01:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Its available for free to anyone who is willing to watch an ad. Click on "Free: Read Salon Now" at the link, watch the ad, and then choose the option that takes you to the article. --Pierremenard 01:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  I don't think it contains all of those accusations. But I completely agree that it is better to replace "Some people" with something more concrete. --Pierremenard 01:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I read through the article briefly. I do not think it supports the edits claimed. The only person named in the article accusing Muslims (in general - not AEL specifically) of anti-semitism is the director off the Dutch Center for Information and Documentation on Israel, Ronny Naftaniel. The rest are anonymous claims. There are no direct accusations of homophobia against AEL. --68.214.59.196 01:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you don't understand what I'm trying to do. I actually tried to improve the page. I don't understand the point of reverting a page to a worse state. Just compare the wording between my version and the older version, and then consider what is most POV. I don't say that my version is perfect, but it is at least better. Just compare. RoLeoVers 01:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salon article? 

message: Connections to terrorists: "More recently, the Dutch faction of the League issued an invitation to Pakistani extremist Hussain Ahmed, leader  of the Jamaat-e-Islami, a group with known ties to al-Qaida and the Taliban, to speak at a congress center in the  Netherlands. (Dutch officials subsequently refused to grant Ahmed an entry visa, citing national security concerns;  the AEL blamed "the Zionist lobby" for the decision.) The AEL has issued public approvals of 9/11, pledged solidarity
with Iraqi insurgents and has challenged new French measures to ban Muslim headscarves in public schools.""
Claims that the group is connected to violence in antwerp: "Belgian lawmakers contended that Jahjah posed a danger to the community of Antwerp."
Connections to anti-semitism: "In April 2002, enraged by Israel's massive military assault into the West Bank in response to a Palestinian terrorist 
attack, Moroccans and AEL members smashed the storefronts of Jewish-owned shops, calling for jihad and chanting "Osama 
bin Laden!"
Homophobia: "In 2003, almost a year after Pim Fortuyn's assassination, the league opened a Dutch chapter; soon after, Mohammed Cheppih was appointed to head it. But earlier statements from Cheppih supporting suicide bombers in Palestine 
and the death penalty for homosexuals provoked such an outcry that he was forced to step down. "
Moreover, Salon.com is clearly a reliable source per WP:RS. These allegations and connections have a documented place in the article. --Pierremenard 01:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Another comment. De Standaard, a quality Belgian newspaper called the AEL cartoons anti-semitic and negationist . Now, I think that "considered by some" and "possibly" anti-semitic are quite accurate statements. RoLeoVers 02:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Why not attribute the accusation to De Standaard, then?--68.214.59.196 02:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, AEL invited a speaker to the Netherlands who is accused of being a member of a group with "ties" to al-Qaeda and the Talban. Is sympathy for Iraqi resistance to occupation considered support for terrorism? Does this justify labeling AEL a supporter of terrorism? --68.214.59.196 02:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Attribute it to a Belgian lawmaker so we can know who is making the accusation. Don't make aninymous accusations. --68.214.59.196 02:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: According to Salon? Was anyone convicted? Did the government accuse AEL? Sounds like the author could have provided names if it was true and not just an annymous accusation. --68.214.59.196 02:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: A member of AEL, before he was a member, made statements advocating Biblical punishment for homosex. Does not mean it is AEL policy and doesn't seem fair to accuse them anonymously.  --68.214.59.196 02:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Salon is a source. This particular article is short on facts. If you write clearly and provide full attribution in the Wikipedia article, like you did above and it should be OK. "According to salon article, M. Cheppih made anti homosex comments sometime before he was a member of AEL." etc. Making anonymous POV accusations is not helping the article.  --68.214.59.196 02:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Documentation offered by the Salon article 

message: I propose the following. All possible POV should be removed. If anyone finds credible sources he may add new things. RoLeoVers 02:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Rather than revert back to old version, lets use this one and either (i) insert citations for unsourced claims or (ii) rephrase to make the article match what is in the sources better. --Pierremenard 02:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposition

message: OK, the article says they got less than 1% of the vote and this shows their support in the Muslim community is insignificant. But don't Muslims make up only 4-7% of the population in Belgium and the Netherlands? And how many are eligible to vote? 1% of the vote translates into at least 14%-25% support among Muslims, assuming voters for this party are predominantly Muslim, which is significant enough. So I think unless we have more concrete figures, that sentence ought to be removed. --Pierremenard 02:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Significant support?

message: Every statement was sourced in detail. This ought to have addressed the concerns you've raised. Why did you revert? --Pierremenard 02:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert? 

message: I think the page has increased enough to remove the POV tag. Anyone else that agrees? RoLeoVers 03:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Everything in the article now is cited. --Pierremenard 03:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Since I see no objections I've done it now (well, to be more accurate, as I write this, I'm about to but when you as you read it, it'll be done!) - RHeodt 16:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of the POV tag?

message: Seems to me that the introduction needs to mention the controversy surrounding this organization. Introductions are supposed to be short summaries of the article, and this one does not summarize the content.  --Pierremenard 04:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction? 

message: There are many words from AEL's own website that could be used to describe the group  but where do some editors prefer to find their material? In Israeli and homosex websites! I think that is why the article is so POV and slanted. --68.214.59.196 04:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be more specific regarding where the article is not WP:NPOV. General statements like these don't make it very much easier to improve the article. Jacoplane 07:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll add that its not at all surprising that anti-semitism is chronicled in Israeli websites. --Pierremenard 08:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV editing 

message: Recently, a vote on the Muhammad cartoons talk page strongly favored a site design showing the cartoon page as an inline image in that entry (unfortunately, in somewhat poor resolution).  Only a link to the AEL cartoons is currently provided, which are not currently accessible.  If anyone can find these cartoons intact, I think that this entry should provide a similar fair use copy (at least) of the AEL cartoons to be fully informative and to emphasize Wikipedia's neutrality in its pursuit of the facts. Mike Serfas 21:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Two cartoons are here and a higher res version of one of them is . Are you sure that inserting these cartoons into the article does not violate copyright laws? --Pierremenard 08:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cartoons 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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