Talk:Pope Clement VII

message: This article seems tobe more of an opinion piece on the character of this pope (i.e. an essay) rather than an encyclopedic article. It should be cleaned up to stress facts rather than opinions methinks. (And opinions can be restated in the usual fashion that opinions are represented as in an encyclopedia)
(And yes, I realize this came from a 19th century Britannica, but that does not have modern encyclopedic standards.)
Yep, this article is a disaster. Clement VII suffered the sack of Rome by mutinous protestants of Charles V (he couldn't predict such an act) but he actually reached peace in Italy with the Congress of Bologna and eleveted Medici to royal status in Tuscany and France. Far from the disaster claimed by this article. Barjimoa (talk) 09:16, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed. This article, as it currently reads, borders on character assassination. Basic biographical facts are missing, particularly in the section on Clement VII's papacy. 2601:193:8201:711F:1562:C9EE:31B3:11CB (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 02:50, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV?

message: There should definatly be some mention of how Clement VII and Charles V acted to together in helping to destory the Knights Templar. Many would find it interesting that on October 13 1507 all Templar property in Europe was raided and seized by Charles V of France. This is how friday the 13 came to be bad luck many believe. Also his treatment of the templars could be mentions about how The Grand Wizard was burned at the stake and accuartly predicted that both Charles V and Clemont VII would die within a year as he slowly burned. I think those ideas if researched in a better fashion would be a good addition to the article
: Clement V was the guy who disbanded the Knights Templars, not Clement VII. 2605:A000:1226:8039:207F:A246:2A34:C719 (talk) 17:50, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: And it was Philip IV 'le Bel', not Charles V.  And the time was early 1300s not early 1500s.  And the Triskaidekaphobia really started (again) with Jesus and the Twelve Apostles at the disastrous Last Supper.  Everybody 'knows' that.  Vicedomino (talk) 05:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clement VII's actions againist the Knights Templar 

message: Nothing in Catholic Canon Law requires priests to be clean-shaven.  Assertions to the contrary are yet another example of the "original research" that poses as "fact" on Wikipedia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.157.11.90 (talk) 05:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I quite agree. Popes in 17th century regularly wore beards (Paul V, Urban VIII, etc.).  It was just a fashion. Beards were frequently grown by a person to indicate passage from one stage of life to another, from youth to maturity.  After eight years on this page, sufficient for all points of view to be aired, and all beards to be shaved and grown, I am removing the offending section.  --Vicedomino (talk) 04:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bearded Wonders!!! 

message: There is a category about this - where is the support in the text? Charles Matthews (talk) 11:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Murder victim?

message: The article states: "However, he was considered worldly and indifferent to what went on around him, including the ongoing Protestant reformation." I find this hard to believe. Anyway, I think this needs a source.85.240.21.40 (talk) 00:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: His View of the Protestant Reformation

message: How does this guy fit into the de Medici genealogy? Why are his parents' names omitted? --LeValley 00:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can anyone easily comprehend who his father is? 

message: Baldassare Peruzzi, Benvenuto Cellini, Sebastiano del Piombo, Raphael,  reconstruction of Rome after the Sack.  --Vicedomino (talk) 17:52, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Clement and the Arts

message: Isn't there anything on him in Paris de Grassi's diaries? [yes] or Marino Sanuto's? [yes] or in the Relazioni of the Venetian ambassadors in Rome? [yes] All of these are in print, with commentaries.  --Vicedomino (talk) 17:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Clement under Leo X

message: The following sentence has problems, "Like his cousin Pope Leo X, Clement was considered too generous to his Medici relatives, draining the Vatican treasuries. This included the assignment of positions all the way up to Cardinal, lands, titles, and money. These actions prompted reform measures after Clement's death to help prevent such excessive nepotism".  'Nepotism' is not the same thing as 'too generous to relatives'.  Popes, for example, were allowed to grant two red hats to relatives without any questions asked. They could and they all did grant bishoprics and benefices to people who had been their supporters and who had worked for them.  None of that was Nepotism.  The Medici were a rich family, and very well and lucratively married.  It was not they who drained the Treasury dry.  It was the Imperial armies, and the need to pay for papal defense, and the need to reconstruct after the Sack.  In fact Clement had a reputation for being more careful with money than Leo.  The comment depends on one source, and that source should be checked for specifics. --Vicedomino (talk) 02:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, I've sent that particular source back to the library I got it from.  It did have more details on the issues under his papacy, but it is just one source, and his papal finances was not the focus (the Medici family was).  If there are other sources that contradict, I don't see an issue with adjusting or removing it.  1bandsaw (talk) 21:03, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure which is the problem: Wictionary gives both definitions for . I see two possible controversies. 1. Whether the benefices were a significant drain.  Given the placement of the paragraph in Pope_Clement_VII#Continental_and_Medici_politics, I wonder whether the reference is talking about contemporary grumblings, or whether Clement was so "considered" by those with the hindsight of the war disaster. 2. What exactly were the reforms, and was Clement their cause? Perhaps there's room for expansion at Cardinal-nephew. Sparafucil (talk) 00:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: When one is not sure, it is probably better not to attempt to make an editorial change, IMHO. Also, Wictionary is not exactly a reliable source in such matters. It usually doesn't take into account such matters as Canon Law and Electoral Capitulations. Also, as part of Wikipedia, isn't it excluded as a source? --Vicedomino (talk) 01:04, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Nepotism

message: In fact Henry's request was the type often granted, especially to royalty, and Clement's refusal was based not on some lofty ideals (as the article has it) but on power politics and personal cowardice.  Namely, Catherine opposed the request, and at the time, Clement was under house arrest by the Emperor, who was Catherine's nephew. 47.20.160.104 (talk) 12:08, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  whitewashes his role in Henry VIII's request for an annulment 

message: Pope Clement VII endured both imprisonment and the destruction of Rome at the hands of Charles V. Charles V was Catherine of Aragon's nephew. When she protested her divorce from Henry VIII, Charles V backed her.
If Clement granted Henry VIII's divorce, he faced the real threat of Charles V's army ransacking Italy again.
Compounding matters, before Clement's papacy, Henry VIII had received a papal bull to marry Catherine. (She was Henry's deceased brother's wife.) Thus, ecclesiastically, the divorce would've put Clement VII 'between a rock and a hard place' with many Cardinals and church law.
Did Clement engage in power politics with Henry VIII? Yes. At the same time, in doing so, did Clement attempt to follow church law and also protect the citizens of Rome? Yes. Did he make a good faith effort to try to handle the situation diplomatically and fairly? Yes.
It's difficult to see this scenario as anything but a no-win for Clement VII. Blaming him for the outcome, it seems to me, is like blaming a card player for having been dealt a bad hand. 
As to Clement's personal qualities, his handling of this situation with Henry VIII and Charles V shows pragmatism and an inclination for diplomacy, but cowardice? I sense that's a stretch. 174.63.43.252 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 19:36, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pope Clement VII & Henry VIII: "Power politics?" Yes. "Personal cowardice?" No.