Talk:James A. Baker (born 1857)

message: TMI in San Antonio was not founded until 1893 (when Baker was 36). The Handbook of Texas reference says he attended TMI in Austin. This reference indicates the presence of TMI in Austin 1870-1880: http://www.dupontcastle.com/castles/tmi.htm and says the school moved from Bastrop to Austin. Possibly the Austin school moved to San Antonio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.154.8.94 (talk) 21:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: IP person: Great points. It only took eight years to address them. James A. Baker (born 1857), aka Captain Baker, attended another TMI located at the time in Austin. When he attended, enrollment had dwindled to fifty-five students and a few years after he graduated, the faculty quit en masse and accepted positions at the precursor to Texas A & M. But another sign that the school was failing: TMI granted a degree to Baker even though he was a full year short of completing the curriculum. Baker himself questioned the standards at TMI (see the article for references on his college days). I don't have a source to confirm this, but it looked like the TMI in Austin probably shut down. TMI in San Antonio did not adopt its current name until 1926, IIRC.Oldsanfelipe (talk) 16:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Attended Texas Military Institute in San Antonio???

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There are four persons in a familial succession who share the name James Addison Baker (unqualified);
* James Addison Baker the elder (18211895)
* James A. Baker, Sr. (18571941)
* James A. Baker, Jr. 
* James Baker, III, former US Secretary of Treasury, living
The fourth James A. Baker is James A. Baker, III, the product of an unorthodox choice of naming by the family. As I have noted above, quoting from a full length biography of the second James A. Baker, his given name was James A. Baker, Jr., and name he used until he was about 40 years old, after which he signed his name as and was commonly known as "Captain James A. Baker." Never was he known legally or commonly as "James A. Baker, Sr." 
The MOS:JOBTITLES policy makes clear that a move to "Captain James A. Baker" is not an option. 
The current title is not tenable. MoS#Article titles, headings, and sections states, "A title should be a recognizable name or description of the topic that is natural, sufficiently precise, concise, and consistent with those of related articles. If these criteria are in conflict, they should be balanced against one another." The name "James A. Baker, Sr" is not recognizable for this second Baker, it is imprecise. It creates a consistency with the related article, but with the consequence of giving him the wrong name.
Wikipedia uses fictions for article names, and rarely with a problem. "John Doe (Texas lawyer)" distinguishes the subject from other persons named John Doe. It works because people who understand conventions for naming persons also understand that the person is named "John Doe" and not "John Doe (Texas lawyer). We lack this clarity in the James A. Baker, Sr. article. The name of the article takes the format of an Anglo name, so the reader expects James A. Baker, Sr to be his name. So whatever the title of the article, it should not be "James A. Baker, Sr" any more than it should be "Ralph Baker." They look like names for a person, but neither is the name for this person.
Having rejected the possibility of "Captain James A. Baker," I offer some other options. Are any of these tenable?
* James A. Baker (18571941)
* James A. Baker the younger - Pliny and Hans Holbein have this attached, but were these their names, or something historians did later to keep them straight? In any case it doesn't look like a person's name. 
* James Addison Baker the younger - This is consistent with the naming of the article for the first James A. Baker.
* James A. Baker (second generation)
Are there any other suggestions which would conform to WP policies? Oldsanfelipe (talk) 20:41, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources are following the conventions that the Bakers used. Captain Baker was born in 1857. Captain Baker was known as ....Jr. before the age of forty and Captain Baker afterward. He was never known as ....Sr and the sources refer to him as Captain Baker. I understand we cannot used "Captain Baker." Oldsanfelipe (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

text: The TSHA article you linked to was the article for the first James A. Baker (b.1821) and the only one who was named ...Sr. The TSHA article uses the first James A. Baker's adult legal name. Oldsanfelipe (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe try proposing "James A. Baker (b. 1857)".  I'm not terribly opposed to it, I just know that such disambiguations have been resisted before, but that that we also do have some pages with such names (mostly in sports). So the resistance is not utterly overwhelming. Given what a weird case this is, an WP:IAR argument can be made.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The current article names for JAB1 and JAB2 do not conform to policy. I am making tables for this ball of rubber bands! Oldsanfelipe (talk) 14:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Why the current article title is untenable

message: "After the Wall Street Crash of 1929 he was instrumental in avoiding the collapse of banks that were sweeping the nation. The president of South Texas Bank wanted to let two weaker Houston banks fail (Public National Bank and Trust Company of Houston run by Jules Henri Tallichet; and Houston National Bank run by C. S. E. Holland),[19][20] saying that they deserved to do so because management was incompetent."
Inline citations 19 and 20 refer to two Handbook of Texas Online article which only support that these banks were run by Tallichet and Holland, respectively. There are sources which support this bank crash narrative without reference to the two bank presidents. I am inclined to remove these two citations and the references to Tallichet and Holland as they are not helpful in telling the story, and the same sources fail at verifying the story about how Houston leaders reacted to the crash. Thoughts? Cheers, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 14:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Unhelpful citations

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:James Addison Baker the elder which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 12:32, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: I made several changes to existing citations to the article and adding many new ones. I should have asked about this before I made changes. I do not understand the existing citations as shown in this diff: . As you can see, there were several bare references, and not understanding the existing system for the established citations, I just used the template. Is there anyone who would like to revert to the previous format? If so, please tell me the name of this citation system so I can learn it.  Is there support for allowing me to use a template to make these citations consistent? Thanks, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 16:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation style

message: I am evaluating the following statement in James A. Baker (born 1857): "After the Wall Street Crash of 1929 he was instrumental in avoiding the collapse of banks that were sweeping the nation. The president of South Texas Bank wanted to let two weaker Houston banks fail (Public National Bank and Trust Company of Houston run by Jules Henri Tallichet; and Houston National Bank run by C. S. E. Holland)...." At the end of this graft are inline citations to articles from the Handbook of Texas Online:  and . Each of these articles supports that Tallichet and Holland ran these respective banks, but does not support any of these other claims. Knowing who ran these banks does not help to explain the story, but if I delete these details, per WP:UNDUE, I need to delete the references as well. I am unclear about when it is permissible to delete sourced content. Is this just a problem of obtaining consensus on the talk page? And how long is an acceptable period to wait if there are no comments? Thanks, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 18:07, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Tallichet and Holland

message: Two images would improve the article: a better portrait of Baker and a photo of one of the Baker College buildings at Rice. Thanks, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 19:37, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested images

message: There's a captain Baker in the sea shanty "Sally Brown", at least in some versions of the song. Any connection? PizzaMan ♨♨♨ 19:53, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sally Brown