Talk:Female genital mutilation/Archive 1

message: I agree with Tannin's views. I'm disappointed that male genital mutilation is so easily dismissed (as are many abuses of males). Still, I would like to see female genital mutilation (in my opinion, so much nastier than male circumcision) be given a clear category in this encyclopedia.
	Anyone agree?
	Arthur  Jan 15, 2003   04:54 UTC
:	I agree, but only subject to the priviso that males and females be treated equally - i.e., "Male Circumcision" and "Female Circumcision" or "MGM" and "FGM". The assertion that female GM is nastier than male GM cannot be made broadly. There are forms of FGM which are very common (especially in SE Asia) that are undoubtedly milder than the normal extent of MGM, and there are (better publicised) forms that are undoubtedly much more severe, with a whole range of variations in between. FGM, in other words, can be much nastier, but can equally be as mild or substantially milder than male circumcision: FGM has a much greater variability. Both operations, however, remove sexual tissue from non-consenting minors, and both should be treated equally. Tannin
:	I strongly disagree:
:	Both male and female circumcision are terrible.  I see feminists trying to get special dispensation by comparing the most extreme forms of female circumcision against the most benign forms of male circumcision.  I shall give examples:
:	Asiatic eunuchs have a straw shoved up the urethra and the then the castrator ties a ligature around the base of the penis and testicles so tightly that the penis and testicles turn black.  Then the castrator cuts of the penis and testicles.  The reason for the straw is to hold open the urethra.
:	Male circumcision varies from forms which remove only the part of the præpuce extending past the glans or dorsal slits.  Then one finds complete præpucectomy.  Then one finds præpucectomy with frænectomy.  Then one finds præpucectomy with frænectomy and subincision.  Finally, one finds penectomy.
:	Female circumcision varies from minor cuts on the genitals to infibulation.
:	The range of FGM and MGM mostly overlap and it is hard to tell which on average is better or worse or which destructive extreme is more destructive or which benign extreme is more benign.
:	The facts are that the culture with FGM are a subset of cultures with MGM, and the percentage of girls falling victim to FGM in these cultures is lower than the percentage of boys falling victim to MGM.
:	If we wish to eliminate FGM, we should eliminate MGM.  If we stop FGM without eliminating MGM, FGM will just reappear on the justification that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  If we eliminate MGM, FGM will follow because what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
:	I do not see any reason we should have two articles for sexual genital mutilation.  I believe that we should have just one article covering sexual genital mutilation both males and females.  The International Coalition for Genital Integrity does not distinguish between sexual genital mutilation of either boys or girls of intersexuals.  You can read the article about Genital Integrity.
:	Ŭalabio 04:33, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)
: I strongly disagree too. The differences in terms of the age when circumcisionis applied (a few weeks for boys, pre-puberty age for girls), the social context (reduing sexual desire for women and thus enforcing her inferior status), as well as the wide gamut of physical scope for FGM versus only the mild uncision for male, make it completely irresponsible to put these on the same footing. It would be the same of setting physical torture, resulting in invalidity, on the same footing as just as single slap on the face.  Regards,  --Rudi Dierick 23:36, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 	More on MGM	

message: I dispute the accuracy of the recent addition:
:Interestingly, the operation is most often carried out by woman practitioners. Thus it has been attributed by some authors to a deep-rooted fear of elder women that the more attractive younger women might seduce away their husbands and thus leave them without support. 
From my research, I haven't uncovered any such argument or "fear." While I have found that it is often carried out by women (often "gypsies"), I haven't found any evidence that older women are afraid that the younger "intact" women will lure aware their spouses. This claim is even more dubious since it is usually the men who want the procedure carried out, horrific as it is. If the older women were trying to keep their husbands, it seems they'd have more luck by not performing the procedure on the younger women. If other agree that this claim is dubious, I'll remove it in the next few days. Please post your views. —Frecklefoot 15:33, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Without some support, I say remove it and leave it in the Talk page.  If there is a credible, specific author promoting this theory who can be identified, it can stay, though if there's dispute this should be added too. Dachshund 05:13, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversial claim

message: It's not easy to count the places where FGM is forbidden(no, it's not Western Civilization, it's more like 90% of the world): North and South America, Europe (all of it, last time I've checked, including Russia and former soviet republics), China, India, Japan and the list might continue. But we have a short list of the places that practice it: Benin, Burkina Faso, Chad, Cote d'Ivoire,  Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Indonesia, Kenya, Liberia, Mali, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Togo, Yemen.
User:Damas
::It's forbidden in Burkina Faso. This doesn't mean it isn't practiced, there were even case in France.
::Ericd 22:50, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh yes indeed, occuring among some political asylum seekers and immigrants, and as soon asthe French authorities found out, they acted swiftly, and punished accomplices with prison sentences of many months.  --Rudi Dierick 00:46, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Western Civilization???

message: This page claims that Tori Amos's song "Cornflake Girl" deals with FGM. Is there some evidence for this? It certainly isn't explicitly mentioned in the lyrics, and I personally don't understand the sous-entendu referred to here. - Montréalais 06:22, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tori Amos 

message: I've noticed a few small mistakes but probably someone else should fix them as I don't have much knowledge on the subject.
* "The labia that are sewn together are not like a mocassin" - I guess that this should be "not unlike".
* "First sexual intercourse can always be extremely painful" - it either "can be" or "is always" but can't be "can always be".
Nikola 13:27, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Small mistakes

message: Can anyone from this page shed light on my query at Talk:Loaded (language)? VeryVerily 01:43, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loaded 

message: (..and assorted grievances.) 
Al-Taqiyya? It would be good to mention, at least, that there's a consensus among Islamic scholars that FGM is mandatory.
: No, consensus among Islamic scholars is that it's not mandatory OneGuy
:: In fact, the practice is unheard of in most Muslim countries. - Mustafaa 11:24, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no consensus among Islamic scholars. You just have to look at the map to see that the practice is unknown in many Muslim countries. Ericd 18:09, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  On The Role Of Religion 

message: I have edited the introductory paragraph.  It should be noted that circumcisions are often forms of genital modification and mutilation.  However there are two important distinctions with regard to vocabulary:
* According laws, to FGM does include genital piercings when performed on minors, regardless whether any tissue is removed.
* According to medical and historical texts, female circumcision, when elected by an adult, or when tissue is removed for medical necessity, is not FGM by current legal or medical definitions.
The two terms are not interchangable unless you are refering only to specific cultures where the meaning happens to be identical.  In the United States, they are technically different terms, since FGM is considered the broader subset which includes genital piercing. DanP 15:14, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology