Talk:Second French Empire

message: I am placing a NPOV tag here because many passages inherited from Britannica retain an anti-French POV. Expressions like "Napoleonic virus" are not exactly encyclopedic, and the whole article has an implicit assumption about the Second Empire and Napoleon III being evil. Too bad, entries from the Britannica about sensitive topics in 1911 can be badly biased. I leave it hoping someone can write it in a more neutral style. --Orzetto 10:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is still true almost 20 years later! BCorr|Брайен 00:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

text: You're in the wrong section, and sign your posts.  I was looking to do the same thing, there is a lot here that seems biased and wouldn't pass the test for POV or original research today.  It's nearly two years later; what happened to the NPOV template?  I'm going to place one for additional sources, with individual  flags where such elements occur. 71.204.204.249 19:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Britannica bias 

message: The Wikipedia article "The Second French Empire", although technically flawed, is well-written and informative overall in that it provides a detailed account of the politics and events of that period. In addition to providing in-depth information, however, the author tries to persuade the reader to see the events of the Second Empire as he sees them — and he does this convincingly. The author also makes several implicit assumptions in the article, but he backs them only with a single source and his own knowledge of the period. Additionally, the structure of the article is odd, with subjects and sub-topics presented throughout in no obvious order. Moreover, important information about the origins and the end of the Second Empire also is omitted.
Of the several persuasive messages in the article, the most obvious is that Emperor Napoleon III's reign served to make a mockery of the very ideals it was supposed to represent. The author believes all the symbols of French democracy — parliament, universal suffrage, and the Constitution of 1852 — had no real impact in the Second Republic. The author is also convinced that Napoleon III sought to govern as an absolute monarch under the guise of an at least somewhat democratic and representative ruler. The author also makes the argument that foreign policy blunders of Napoleon III were the predominant reason for the loss of popular support for the Second Empire. This last argument, however, seems rather shallow considering the abundance of religious, social, or economic problems during this period. 
The author also makes several assumptions about the Second Empire. The most obvious ones involve reasons for the mass support of the early Empire. The article implies that it was the fear of instability that led the populous to bring Napoleon III to power. It fails to surface and discuss other major reasons that played an equally important role in the creation of the Empire. The article also fails by omission to discuss the religious, social, and economic reasons underlying the early support for Napoleon III. The author states that a "Napoleonic Virus" led to the overwhelming decision in the form of a plebiscite to give Napoleon III supreme power to rule. What this so-called "Napoleonic Virus" was is never really explained, and the contention that it was somehow a factor in Napoleon III’s ascension to power is not backed by evidence. 
 
The author's most compelling argument concerns Napoleon III’s ineptness in foreign affairs. The author provides several examples of severe foreign policy blunders made by the Emperor. One is France's controversial role in Italy's unification; another is the major misstep of trying to establish a colonial empire in Mexico. Most important of all, however, is France's disastrous dealings with Prussia, which would cumulate in the Franco-Prussian War.
In addition to making strong arguments, however, the author also proffers a few relatively weak ones. One that stands out is the author's description of the progression of the Second Empire during its 18-year life span. The author initially describes the Empire as a shell democracy with a powerless legislature and tight censorship of the press. Later in the article though, the author describes an Empire in which public opinion was vitally important and where opposition openly existed. This transformation was a huge one and had significant underlying causes. However, the article provides only a weak and unconvincing reason: the Italian foreign policies of Napoleon III. The Italian expedition did, indeed, create opposition among some French Catholics, but it certainly could not have been the sole reason underlying the shift from an absolute Empire to a liberal Empire. The article does not explore at all what the internal economic, social, and religious factors that might also underlie this transformation.
The author fails to use multiple, diverse sources as the evidence supporting all of his claims and assumptions. He simply provides as his sole source the 1911 edition of "Encyclopedia Britannica". Citing other broad books and other materials would significantly help to verify the academic integrity of the article. Additionally, including focused and specialized academic works and at least some modern sources would also have bolstered the article’s credibility. Since 1911, for example, more in-depth studies of the Second Empire have no doubt been undertaken. It is entirely possible that new facts or ideas about the Second Empire have been unearthed that would not have been available to the editors of the 1911 edition of "Encyclopedia Britannica". 
A final flaw in the article is the seeming lack of order in which topics are presented. A chronological order of the events is not used as the organizational system. Instead, events seem to be listed in a haphazard order rather than with any structured purpose or intent. There is no reason provided or apparent, for example, for mentioning the "Rise of Prussia" prior to the "Mobilization of the Working Classes".
Despite the above problems, the article is very informative. The information is presented in a very clear and concise matter. However, the article does leave out important elements of the inception and demise of the Empire. For example, the author does not elaborate how Napoleon III was able to come to power and thus create the Second Empire. It also fails to mention details of Napoleon III's direct election to the office of president by the French people or the one term limit of the presidency that forced Napoleon III to launch a palace coup to stay in power. Additionally, the author fails to mention the disastrous Franco-Prussian War that led to the capture of Napoleon III and the downfall of the Second Empire. The article would be much more complete with even a brief mention of the origins of the Second Empire and its final demise. Notwithstanding these few shortcomings, the Wikipedia article is very informative and presents the information in a clear and precise manner. -Donnie Holzinger —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.221.188 (talk • contribs) 22:00, 21 March 2006
Would contributors please sign their comments with four (4) tildes ( ~ )? Thank you very much! — Diamantina 06:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't edit other's comments.  I've replaced yours, which was apparently deleted when 128.239.221.188 added a name in lieu of a proper wiki signature (four tildes, people, that means ~~~~, it's not that difficult), but it's equally as bad to tinker with other people's talk page contributions.  That goes for you too, 128.239.221.188, don't delete other people's talk page contibutions. 71.204.204.249 19:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few problems with the article 

message: The article strongly implies that left-wing working class political thought was dominated by the ideas of Marx and Bakunin. However, Marxism was still a small fringe of 'the left' even at the Empire's end, and only saw real influence amongst the working classes from the 1880s and onwards. During the Second Empire, the most influential working-class political ideologies were those of the Proudhonists (forerunners of the anarcho-syndicalists) and the Balnquists (who focused on siezing power rather than theorising; they had gained much support following the radical workers' continued defeats after 1848). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.131.97.125 (talk) 12:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mobilization of the working classes" 

message: This article is a good read and intriguing. However I wonder if some of the points are biased in one way or another. I can't tell for sure though since there are no inline references. I have added the reference tag for that reason. Feel free to remove it if you disagree. Cool10191 (talk) 16:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improvements 

message: I believe that Algeria had been administrated by France since 1830, and other territories may have also been under French juristiction or as a protectorate (Tahiti for example). Shouldn't this show on the map? This article is about an empire, after all.Jarby (talk) 15:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it should be on the map -- but, for future reference, Algeria was merely a colony until the constitution of 1848, whereby it was divided into three départments. -- Jack1755 (talk) 22:55, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shouldn't the map show Algeria? 

message: It seems to me that this article should, at some point, mention that Napoleon III brought France from an agrarian economy to an industrialized one. And what about Baron Haussman redesigning Paris? These both happened not simply under his reign, but at his explicit direction. Should be noted, at least.
Tyrannischgott (talk) 07:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Industrialization? 

message: This sentence I believe is in error:
"He then led France to war with Austria over Italy. France was victorious, and gained Savoy and Nice, but the unification of Italy outraged French Catholics, who had been the leading supporters of the Empire."
This is my proposed correction:
He then led France to war with Austria over Italy. France was victorious, and gained Savoy and Nice, but the unification of Italy outraged French Catholics, who had been the leading supporters of maintaining but the unification of Italy outraged French Catholics, who had been the leading supporters of the Empire lands controlled by the Papacy."
Thoughts?
RMB
:I think both sentences are right. The French Catholics were supporters of the French Empire but also wanted to maintain the territorial integrity of the Papal States. I would scind therefore this sentence in two : 
:He then led France to war with Austria over Italy. France was victorious, and gained Savoy and Nice. But the unification of Italy outraged the French Catholics, who had been the leading supporters of the emperor, because they wanted to maintain the territorial integrity of the Papal States.  JoJan (talk) 09:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  error in "decline" section 

message: Why is Algeria not colored in on the map in the infobox?  Algeria was part of France by this time. 24.11.127.26 (talk) 01:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Why do they call this the Second French Empire?  Its boundaries are no different from modern France.Leo-Isaurus-Rex (talk) 18:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As a matter of fact; they were. Algeria was an integral part of France -- not a colony like the rest of its African poseesions; the Treaty of Turin, 1860, ceded Savoy and Nice to France, hitherto part of the Kingdom of Sardinia. As for the name, the traditional, Bonapartist monarchical title was that of Emperor; and the domain of an emperor is an empire. -- Jack1755 (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: The map is showing modern borders. Unless my knowledge of history is completely wrong, Austria for example was at the time of the French Empire part of the Habsburg polity, not its own little Republic with modern borders.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.187.236 (talk) 17:14, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed the map to one with more accurate 19th century borders. TRAJAN 117 (talk) 06:58, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anachronicity of the map 

message: I believe the map is missing some French outposts in Africa.  For instance, portions of the Ivory Coast had become a French protectorate in 1844, and Libreville had been founded in 1849.  108.254.160.23 (talk) 03:16, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map again 

message: We have the unhappy case of an editor who erased 30+ sourced edits on a wide range of topics on this topic with no discussion here on the talk page and instead an insulting edit summary: (Revert to last good version (if that). The editor Rjensen is apparently balling up his fists and attempting to wish away imperialism as a fact of history).  the complaints is 99% vague  and cannot support the deletion of multiple topics on domestic policy unrelated to imperialism.   I would be happy to discuss any and all edits here. "Imperialism" has two senses: a) Imperialism refers to emperors and empires--that is not at issue. 2) imperialism refers to the foreign policy of seizure of territories the way France, UK and other countries did across the world especially when the French Second Empire was active, 1851-1870. I very much consider #2 an important major event and at no point have I denied it--instead I have added RS cites.  Nor do I approve (I wrote "Historians have generally given the Empire negative evaluations on its foreign-policy, and somewhat more positive evaluations of domestic policies, especially after Napoleon liberalized his rule after 1858.")  Rjensen (talk) 07:58, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  erasing dozens of sourced edits 

message: The section "Foreign Policy" needs its english overhauled. But worse still is "The visit of Czar Alexander II to Paris for John disaster". Masonmilan (talk) 11:01, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Foreign Policy 

message: The intro states that in the realm of foreign policy Napoleon III wished to “emulate his Uncle”-I know this statement is at least  somewhat subjective and may just be coloring in the intro but considering the lengths he went too early on to convey and his actual foreign policy throughout-Napoleon III pursued an imperialistic foreign policy but specifically not one that followed his Uncle’s legacy of invading and conquering major portions of Europe, if anything he went against that example, seeking to more or less maintain (not expand significantly) France’s position as the dominant land power of Europe while pursuing a fairly ambitious approach abroad. OgamD218 (talk) 09:23, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro/Foreign Policy 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Shouldn’t the map of the empire include all the North African territories? Or am I being ignorant and in fact, their southern border was indeed a straight line? 2A02:C7C:5690:A000:A0EB:A167:F991:D75E (talk) 08:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomplete map