Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels/Archive 5

message: I've got a book that has a facsimile of the title page of the orginal edition. Is it permisable to upload it (after scanning) and what sort of tag should be attached to it (re. copyright status)?ShaiM 03:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scanning pages and copyright

message: Hi. If you still have work to do tagging talk pages and assessing articles, my AWB plugin might be of interest to you.
The plugin has two main modes of operation:
*Tagging talk pages, great for high-speed tagging
*Assessments mode, for reviewing articles (pictured)
As of the current version, WikiProjects with simple "generic" templates are supported by the plugin without the need for any special programatic support by me. I've had a look at your project's template and you seem to qualify.
For more information see:
*About the plugin
*About support for "generic" WikiProject templates
*User guide
*About AWB (AutoWikiBrowser)
Hope that helps. If you have any questions or find any bugs please let me know on the plugin's talk page. --Kingboyk 14:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tagging talk pages and assessing articles

message: I have been looking at The Chronicles of Narnia individual book articles. Some of them show chapter listings and some don't. I asked here if the books should have chapter listins and was refered here. Is there a standard about listing chapter titles?--roger6106 03:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I see no value in a listing of chapter headings. This is not included in our standard for articles. There might be the odd occasion when there could be a benefit to this but for now I can't think of one!. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chapters

message: There has been a situation where the book cover for the semi-nonfiction work Cosmic Trigger I: Final Secret of the Illuminati was removed, apparently because it was felt posting the cover of a book violated fair use. I think this is ridiculous, but considering that Wikipedia users appear to change their interpretation of the copyright rules whenever the tide does, I have to ask the question -- are we still allowed to include book cover images with our Novels articles? (Incidentally in previous rants on this subject I've made the prediction that Wikipedia will eventually ban all images; I've actually seen people espousing the virtues of the German Wikipedia which has actually done just that; it's one of the dullest sites on the net now. I hope English Wiki doesn't go the same direction.) 23skidoo 13:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the consensus is that book covers may only be used to illustrate an article on the book in question -- since Cosmic Trigger doesn't have an article, maybe the editors felt there was no rationale for the cover.  Do you have a link to a deletion log or some correspondence regarding the deletion?  TheronJ 14:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm with 23skidoo on this one a picture is vital to gaining and retaining interest. If the copyright industry ever intended the silly debate we keep having here they may all go out and shoot there collective feet. I can sort of understand keeping the cover images to the novel articles themselves but only just. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 14:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah, now that I can see the article, it makes sense.  You're clearly in the right, 23.  This looks like a mistaken impression by the user who uploaded the original cover image.  User_talk:Wiki_alf#Picture_licensing.  TheronJ 16:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No disrespect intended to the user who misinterpreted the rule, it's just that I really do see zero consistency with regards to the use of images on Wikipedia so it really would not have surprised me to learn that the rules had changed again regarding book covers. So I thought I would check, just in case. 23skidoo 17:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Just on a related note, there is currently a discussion going on at Talk:Frankenstein#Images about removing the book cover from that article because the poster claims it violates fair use to use book covers and constitutes "a free ad" for the publisher of the edition illustrated. Someone has suggested replacing the book cover with an image of Mary Shelley as well (though under the fair use rules for people images they can't be used for such things - though granted it's probably easy to find a public domain image of her). I've tried to set things straight, but it might be worth watching this discussion as this is the sort of thing that could lead to exactly what I'm concerned about. 23skidoo 21:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Are book covers still allowed?

message: Please note the creation of this category - novels will be put in here too if they are found in :Category:Category needed, so this may be helpful and relevant to this wikiproject. Aelfthrytha 13:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Uncategorised books]] 

message: I just noticed a banner for a BooksWikiproject starting to appear. Maybe it's been around for awhile, but I wonder if this might be duplicating some of the efforts being undertaken by this project? 23skidoo 19:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the banner has just been written. By a fairly enthusiastic new "Books" member. I would agree there is protentinal of confusion, certainly overlap. What I would suggest is that we try to stay on good terms with all their efforts and encourage the "Novels" efforts to come our way. Novels, Novellas and maybe Short Stories that is (Short Stories issue is still to be resolved). :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 07:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: About short stories: where is that being discussed? I'm in favour of including them in this project, especially since there are so many instances of the short story collection that has a linear timeline and overlapping characters and the older format of the book of sketches which I discussed before. Since then I've found many many more examples of this ambiguity between short stories and novel. If they're all included, we won't have to have disputes about these types of books.--Ibis3 17:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BooksWikiproject

message: Hi, I've added pics to two novels: The Talisman and Woodstock (novel). These are frontispieces scanned from an 1863 combined volume, and should do until we get the frontispieces of first editions. But my question is, what how should illustrations be cropped? I've put up the versions which show the cover and pages behind the illust page. But at Commons I've uploaded cleaner cropped versions. It has also just now occurred to me that I could have photographed the book instead of laying it on the scanner. 
What does the project prefer? (apologies if there are guidelines for this - I haven't been able to find them: perhaps mention at the Infobox template?) Cheers, JackyR | Talk 22:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know that there are guidelines to exactly what you mention, others may know differently. However it might be usefull to have a look at :Wikipedia:Fair use for associated thinking, and I would tend to go with the better "commons" images. We tend to set the cover "or frontispiece alternatives" to "200px" sizing for the infobox. Does that help - a bit! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very much. Thank you! JackyR | Talk 12:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frontispiece illustrations 

message: Here's a question I've asked before, but probably not where anyone was likely to respond.  Somewhere in the guidelines I read that the preferred image for a novel's article (and infobox) is that of the first edition hardback, if any.  But what, if anything, is to be done about articles that instead feature a paperback cover or a later edition hardcover one? Should these be left alone, so as not to "orphan" the fair use images someone took the trouble to upload and place there?  Or should they be supplanted and the paperpack images deleted (or used elsewhere)?  I'm thinking mostly of certain Madeleine L'Engle articles such as A Ring of Endless Light, A Wrinkle in Time and A Wind in the Door.  Every time I go to those articles, I resist the temptation to upload my hardcover dustjacket images. (No, I don't have a first of Wrinkle, but my 1965 copy does have the  original cover art.) Should I continue to resist, or just do it?  Karen | Talk | contribs 05:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I tend to do is to replace the cover with the "first" (not necessarily hardback, but very often) and move the existing image if worthwhile elsewhere in the article. Usually lower down, slightly smaller (e.g. 150px), with "thumb" marker and caption to explain it's use and then often aligned to the "left". Some larger novels / article possibly warrant a set of covers which illustrate a "publication history". This is used in some cases already. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 07:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Which book cover?

message: I have merged some articles into this but its looking a little messy, as I have no experience in the "novel department", can someone help me make it neat please?--SGCommand (talk • contribs) 20:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Griffin (The Invisible Man)]] 

message: While disambiguating Dan Gordon (please forgive the lack of wikilink) I came across a couple of lists from Category:Lists of Ace Books (please forgive the lack of wikilink, again). There are 24 such lists in the category, and the ones I've seen are huge and in a complete mess, riddled with redlinks (forgivable), links to dab pages (unfortunate) and links to completely unrelated subjects (oh dear....). As obsessive as I am, I'm not touching this. I thought I'd draw the lists to somebody's attention, and you guys are the novels project. Admittedly, the bad links are (supposed to be) authors, not novels. So feel free to completely ignore them. I know I will.
Interestingly, Ace Books is a featured article.... TheMadBaron 06:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow a hugh task, however having had a brief look I con only find good links (and the red links, of course). Do you have a few examples so we can have some idea where to start. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Ouch! I'll give it a go. Grey Shadow 01:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Way to go, Grey! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 14:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I've just noticed that Lee Correy correctly redirects to G. Harry Stine, so it's not actually an error. Others are a different matter. Grey Shadow 15:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have done Ben Smith for you lot Kingjamie 15:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation link repair - I can't help!

message: Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory.  These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages: 
*User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory, 
*User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
*User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
*User:Badbilltucker/Science directory
and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory.
The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. 
It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 22:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now moved the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 14:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Have updated the Novels, Books and Spooks project entries. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 15:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project Directory 

message: A friend suggested to me that we could do ratings for the books such as 'adult' 'teenage fiction' children fiction', that sort of thing.  I thought it pretty interesting, and it would be neat if that appeared onto every book thingummy, so I thought I'd just ask about it here.
Lady Nimue of the Lake 07:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personnal ratings is out of the scope of wikipedia, certainly the main namespace. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess.  Lady Nimue of the Lake 06:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ratings??? 

message: Howdy all - Since so many articles use external links to Amazon.com, I put in a request for an Amazon.com template here. Is anyone good at this? Thanks for any help - Pegship 16:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The main problem is that Amazon links usually link to products. The guidelines state we should use ISBN instead of bookstore linking, as ISBN are handled directly by the server, giving the possibility to choose between many different bookstores. -- ReyBrujo 17:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: So I think the response to, "so many articles use external links to Amazon.com" is that they shouldn't! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps they shouldn't, but inevitably they will, and as such, the template sounds like a good idea to me. Amazon is a useful resource, if not very reliable. A lot of older books don't have ISBNs.... the problem with the Amazon ID is that it isn't really used elsewhere, and certainly shouldn't be considered as a substitute for an ISBN where one is available.  TheMadBaron 14:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It occurs to me that a Library of Congress template would be more accurate, but less descriptive. Frequently LOC gives the bare bones, and it doesn't include a cover image or a synopsis (unless a cataloger has written one). We have a template for LCC and LCCN; do we need one to search LOC for an ISBN? Pegship 00:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WikiProject Spam is setting up a bot to revert determined links. Amazon products may be one of them. So, you would not need to worry about this a lot if it is considered blacklisted in the external links section. I have seen people link directly to the Search inside feature, though. But from what I remember, that requires a registration, so it may be considered an invalid link as well. -- ReyBrujo 02:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amazon.com template request 

message: I've opened a potential pandora's box at The Castle. Someone has created separate articles for different editions/translations of the book. I'm aware of no other work so treated and in my personal opinion the translations should be nominated for AFD. Right now I'm suggesting merging instead. Anyone who wants to comment for or against the idea are invited to comment at the main article and the three spin-off articles (accessed via the merge tags on the main). Personally I think it sets a dangerous and confusing precedent. Anything noteworthy about a translation can be summed up in a paragraph in the main article. Or, if there really is scholarly noteworthiness about the different translations, then ONE article on the topic should suffice. 23skidoo 15:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed ... there are exceptionally few cases in which a translation is so important as to merit a separate article, and comment on translations should have been restricted in this case to the original article. I actually think that an article on translations of The Bible, Homer or Dante would be appropriate to the English wikipedia (just as translations of Shakespeare might be appropriate to the wikipedia in another language), but in such a case the article should be a synoptic overview of the subject rather than an article on a single translation. If someone wanted to fold the three articles into a single one on translations of The Castle, I suppose that would be fine as well. --Sordel 09:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree with Sordel there would have to be a damn good reason for different articles for translations or editions - Merge ahead Lethaniol 18:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Separate articles for different editions???

message: We have a project structure that allows for the formation of special interest task forces (al la "WP:MILHIST".) This is useful for identifying groups of "Novels" editors who have a common interest. (i.e. Science fiction novels, Crime Novels, Children's novels, Classic literature, Russian novels etc.) Would there be interest out there in setting one or more of these up. Comments please! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 10:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The obvious groupings could be considered along the lines of "Novels" categories, Novels by country, Novels by genre, Novels by century? or even Novels by award (major literary prize: Booker, Newbery etc.). :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 10:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This sounds like it could be quite useful and I would have no objections to participating in appropriate taskforces. Whilst I'm interested in literature in general, a lot of my additions have been in more 'genre' novels to date: crime (particularly historical), horror and fantasy. Silverthorn 17:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could participate with Russian novels. Errabee 00:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Taskforce_establishment

message: Um . . . this is so confusing, and I don't know where to ask. Total newcomer (at least in this end of wikipedia). I'm interested in working on the articles on the Jose Saramago novels. What should I do? Is anyone else interested or already working on them?DianaW 19:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome, no one particular is working on them that I know of, so just get started. Jose Saramago is not an author than I know so my envolvement will be just oversight. To start have a look at Master and Commander as a good example, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate for a basic article starting pattern. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Help

message: I continue to be uncomfortable with the assessing of novels as "low", "medium" and "high" importance. Aside from the fact (expressed before) that I feel assessing on this level violates WP:NPOV, the use of the terms "low-importance", for example, in describing a book is, in my POV, somewhat insulting. At the risk of opening a pandora's box on this issue, can we not perhaps drop the actual wording and instead, perhaps work with a scale of 1 to 10 or 1, 2, 3 or something like that. It doesn't change the POV of assessing novels, but at least it doesn't make it as blatantly POV as labelling a book as "high importance" or as "low importance" which is bound to create some controversy. Thoughts? 23skidoo 03:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bear in mind this is not an assessment of the novels / books, but an assessment of the articles. The "importance" is a gauge of it's priority in the encyclopedia. Also the Low, Mid, High, Top are Wikipedia wide, WP:1.0 namings. The "currently" approved alternative titles for this element is between "importance" or "priority", which speaks more of the sequence of attention that the WikiProject associated should be giving to the article in preparing it for inclusion in the WP:1.0 and WP:0.5. If you consider that the change of "importance" to "priority" is worth doing it could be with AWB and considerable effort, then consider how much would be envolved changing the other elements to numbers, especially when the automation tools don't know anything of such a scheme. The NPOV issue I have some understanding of, but consider that this tagging is restriced to the "Talk" namespace (which is open to all sorts of POV). :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The wording of assessments

message: The article Book has the absurd box saying it's in the wikiproject Novel;s--how does it get temoved.?DGG 07:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: now removed - how it got there I don't know. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 14:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: removing?

message: James Joyce is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy (Talk) 21:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[James Joyce]]

message: WHY do so many of the entries about Harry Potter and events in the novels have dates (e.g. Harry Potter, born 31st July, 1980 (or whatever))? All that needs to be assumed is that the stories take place "in the present" and certain events happened a number of years ago "in the past". J.K. Rowling rightly hasn't bothered herself with exact dates for anything, and neither should anyone writing for Wikipedia, IMO.
Actually, she provides one date, and from that fans have derived all of the other dates.  In the second book, when Nearly-Headless Nick has has 500th deathday celebration on Halloween, the date of his death is given as being October 31, 1492.  That means that the current date was October 31, 1992, and since she provides plenty of relative dates, the rest fall in place rather easily.Crispus 03:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harry Potter dates?! 

message: Since some of the main tenants of writing an article are no original research and adherence to objectivity, is it necessary to read the book before submitting an article about it?
WesHoskins 06:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question!! Short answer is obviously no! However this is an interesting point. Strictly given the tenets of WP:NPOV we should not us any information from the personal experience of the subject in question. However in the case of books, literature and in this case "Novels" this appear (in my view) to be slightly absurd. The book is to some degree its own reference. However it is worth saying that most editors appear to take this view and lose track of the needs for verifiable sources of information, particularly critical comment, reviews & issues directly relating to an understanding of the novel's notability. More references and citations from everyone please.!!! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I see it, this is a question of motivation: why would anyone want to write an article on a book they have not read? Okay, you can write a stub saying "Under the Palm Trees is a novel by Flora Kleinbaum first published in 2004. It won the Jungle Prize for Fiction in 2005", but anything beyond that should be written by those who know what they are writing about. Too many novel articles distort the facts about a book because people who have only watched the movie add things which are simply absent from the novel. <KF> 16:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can think of several reasons why one might write an article despite not having read the book.  One might be to get the stub out there so that others will find it when searching and perhaps be inclined to add to it...another might be that the title sounds intriguing and so you decide you want to find out a little more about it...yet a third might be a simple desire to help by chipping away at the list of as-yet-unwritten articles... OTOH I do agree that the movie version of a work should NOT be used as a source for solid information on the book!  --Bookgrrl 16:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This can wind up being problematic, though.  It's easy to see The Good Soldier Švejk article was written by someone who had gotten information from reviewers who had not read the book.  This occurs, also in some other novel articles I run across now and then.  Inaccuracy is, imo, worse than no article.  KP Botany 17:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newbie question - Novels & [[WP:NPOV]]

message: A discussion has begun regarding the issue of making it mandatory for Wikipedia articles to have third-party sources and allowing speedy deletion of articles that do not. The proposed policy is at Wikipedia:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles. This has me concerned because aside from the fact that it's apparently going to require every edit to be sourced (which is unreasonable and unworkable), it also appears to suggest that articles without a third-party source may be also subject to deletion. Which, IMO means a good 75% if not more of the articles in this WikiProject will be endangered. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to require sources if you make a statement about a book such as "This book inspired Oscar Wilde to get into writing" or whatever ... however when the subject of the article is the only source, and the only real content is a plot summary, a few general words about the book, and the infobox, this policy on the surface would appear to render such articles unusable. Example: I just created a stub article on the Martin Caidin novel Cyborg IV. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you will not find a third-party source providing information about this book. The only information I have for this book is what is between the pages and on the cover; yet as I understand the proposed policy, this article could be deleted. Maybe I'm misreading the policy, but if it goes through I think the members of this wikiproject should be concerned. 23skidoo 21:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Similarly concerned! This is a one size fits all policy that has not concidered other issues. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't help when Jimbo Wales has taken a "zero information is better than wrong information" attitude according to the discussion. I've "quit" Wikipedia on several occasions over the last few months because of -- and I don't care if this offends anyone -- zealots who are so paranoid of something incorrect getting into an article that they are basically forcing people like me to do unpaid research for them. I do this for free as a fun time-filler when I'm not doing my paid work. If they want me to cross-reference everything (and the way this thing reads that could mean everything from adding a publishing date or ISBN to the infobox to adding in an article that America became a country in 1776) then my rates as a professional writer start at $50 Cdn. plus GST per hour. Let me know where to send the invoice. I have a few "trigger" articles -- ones that, while I know no one "owns" articles here, have nonetheless been pretty much "my baby". Specifically any of the Simon Templar articles or things related to Bill Haley. Too much disruption to any of those could be enough for me to leave the project for good. 23skidoo 03:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fortunately for Wikipedia and society at large, there are still a handful of individuals left (such as 23skidoo) who are neither stricken with paranoia nor other people's willing executioners. It's a sad fact that obedience to authority is deeply ingrained in society and that many people only see the letters of the law but fail to grasp its spirit. The abovementioned Wikipedia:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles is a case in point. As Wikipedia grows and progresses, new dangers, never thought of before, appear, but I do hope this project will be strong enough to face them. <KF> 16:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the support. I am of the view that Wikipedia probably has another year or less before the paranoia takes over completely and we see a rather drastic reduction in content. Certainly I don't expect images to remain on Wikipedia for too much longer beyond maybe the most basic ones. Some wikiprojects have virtually eliminated them (the German Wiki is often cited), and there are those who seem to think the lack of images has made those sites somehow better. (I'm reminded of the early days of the Internet when there were a group of users who eschewed graphical interfaces (i.e. browsers) in favor of non-graphical all-text access because they liked it better that way; true, most computers didn't have the guts to handle something like Netscape or I.E. in those days, but still...) There's also the occasional user who comes around who believes we should only cover academically notable subjects. For example, this WikiProject, in their view, should only be about stuff like Dickens and Moby Dick, and not articles on Cyborg or The Da Vinci Code. I agree, I hope this project (and similar ones) get strong enough to mount a defense against these sorts of things. 23skidoo 17:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One other thing happening, although I tend to agree that no information is preferable to wrong information, is that editors are tending towards almost entirely web resources, which aren't necessarily the most reliable.  This is, imo, going to downgrade the quality of articles on Wikipedia overall.  Also folks don't seem to understand how to use sources.  Articles are copying sentences from sources and stringing them together, rather than writing an aritcle based upon sourced information.  And, yes, I've noticed those folks who think that Jaws (film) is unworthy of an article as it is just a popular movie--what will anthropologists study 1000 years from now if we ignore our popular culture?  KP Botany 18:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the default source for everything seems to be the Internet, which is highly variable in reliability and really has a short memory, i.e., it has relatively little data on anything that happened before 1990. Fortunately, there's a fair amount of printed material about many (if not most) novels, notable short stories and their authors. I've started trying to use "search inside this book" to help track down some of this, but most of the time there's no substitute for thumbing through pages.  Another problem I'm seeing in Wikipedia generally is a push for inline citations, to the point where references previously entered as links or in the References heading are ignored, and the material is thought to be "unsourced". I can see myself going through Madeleine L'Engle and citing the same sources five times each just to satisfy the mania for inline citations only. Karen | Talk | contribs 18:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, this explains why so many articles are starting to look like someone strung the sources together as if links on a chain--then called the chain an article, when trying to build a fence.  In the old days, when we used to write material on index cards, then an outline, then write the article from the two, a warning to all was to not let the article sound like that is what you did.   In-line sources mania is attempting to do the converse: make it look like you strung together a bunch of sources instead of writing a coherent article.  Thanks for the insight.  KP Botany 18:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even when relying solely on web resources and the novel in question itself (which is the primary source, for Christ's sake) one can write a well-rounded and good article. While it's virtually impossible to get hold of a hard copy of an essay in, say, The Albuquerque Literary Quarterly, Vol. XVII (1962) pp.241-253, it's very easy to access the same article if it has been made available online, so there's definitely no decrease in quality there. As with any kind of source, you have to use it wisely. And if we had all academic material ever published on Charles Dickens at our disposal, we would never get the Dickens article written.You have to work carefully and responsibly, that's all, which includes checking facts, using more than just one source, and ignoring those who claim that neither copying an outline of the plot -- a copyvio and thus against Wikipedia policy, which is true -- nor writing your own plot outline -- "original research" and thus also against Wikipedia policy -- is possible. <KF> 22:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New policy on sources might affect novels articles

message: This list was started some time ago by a certain Nick Carraway. I'd like to invite you all to expand it by adding any title that crosses your mind while you are working on other things. <KF> 16:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[List of literary works with eponymous heroes]]

message: I'm trying to build my first article, I want to know where exactly I paste the article template.  The instructions say "new article page" but I can't find that link anywahere.  Is it the user page? 
Thanks, WesHoskins 05:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's how I do it. Find a related article, such as a page about your book's author. The novel (if that's what it is you're about to write about) should be mentioned in it somewhere. Put brackets around that mention, creating a Wikilink. When you save, it will be a "redlink", indicating there is no article by that name. (If it's not red, then there already is an article after all.) Click on the redlink, and you will be taken to a page that says there is no such article yet, with a big empty box in which to write the article.  Paste your template in there and get started! (I really should use that template myself.) Karen | Talk | contribs 06:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help 

message: Just wanted to advise members of this project of the existence of List of fictional books.  This is a list of invented or imaginary books created as part of piece of fiction -- for example, Jorge Luis Borges did several short stories that were reviews of books that he made up (these were published in Ficciones).  Another famous example is H.P. Lovecraft's Necronomicon , an imaginary book of black magic and necromancy which appears in a number of his Cthulhu mythos stories.  If anyone in this project is intrigued by this literary device, we invite your participation, edits, additions, comments etc.  Thanks :)  --Bookgrrl 16:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of fictional books

message: Just FYI a discussion is currently underway at Naming Conventions here about creating a naming standard for categories since there are so many different variations of "Books by X", "X books", "Books written by X", "Novels by X", etc etc. I agree there should be a standard for this. My personaly vote is for "Books by X" since not all authors publish exclusively fiction novels (i.e. Asimov) so this would cover all an author's book releases; "X books" is problematic as that category could also include books written about a subject by others ... 23skidoo 16:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am aware of the debate, just. Although I don't have strong views on the subject I would support consistency of format if not in term used. Bear in mind that plenty of people write novels but not books, particularly those who write to the Web. A Book is a particular delivery format (i.e. a codex) whereas the term novel relates for a writing style or narrative prose, normally implying a certain length. but of course you knew all that! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 16:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Considering that the category for Madeleine L'Engle's characters was just changed by CFD to Characters from Madeleine L'Engle works, I'm wondering whether the cat for the books should be Works by Madeleine L'Engle or Books by Madeleine L'Engle.  It could be Novels by Madeleine L'Engle, but since she has written a number of books that are not novels, a broader category might be better. Karen | Talk | contribs 21:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We would need to see how the overall debate pans out then apply the principle to this one. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming conventions for categories

message: Can we get a standard block added where people who know a book exists in Project Gutenberg (www.gutenberg.org) can easily add just that reference? There are a number of PG books which have WP entries and it would be nice to have links going both directions on this.
:Not sure what you mean here - surely we just add the reference as most do to the External links section. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Links to Project Gutenberg

message: To give some coherency to the many little sf-oriented communities on Wikipedia.--ragesoss 20:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: as a genre which is strongly represented in narractive prose (Novels) we may well partner with this project in a "Task Force" at some stage. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New WikiProject: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Science Fiction]]

message: (Sorry for some cross-posting, but I'm hoping to get the word out.) I've started WikiProject Free book covers, which used to be in my user space, as a project to replace fair use images of old books with public domain ones. All of these images are affected by the replaceable clause of the fair use policy, so this is a crucial task. We've gotten a lot done while it was in user space but there's still a lot of work to be done, so please come lend a hand. Every replacement advertises the project, so even doing one or two will help. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks! Chick Bowen 21:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: From an aesthetics standpoint, it isn't advantageous to always replace a book cover with one that is effectively blank (which is the case for many books published prior to 1923). I would counsel that if we're going to replace illustrated covers with non-illustrated covers, it might be better from a display standpoint to instead recommend that the title page instead be used in those cases. An example is the awful image that is now used for Green Mansions; to be honest, no cover is preferable to what is being used. If a dustjacket illustration can be located for the 1904 issue, that's great. Otherwise I'd rather see the title page used. Thoughts? 23skidoo 21:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that title pages are preferable to book covers, and actually most of the ones there are indeed title pages.  I'll make that clearer at the project.  Thanks.  Chick Bowen 21:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's cool. As I say there are some very attractive covers from the pre-1923 era -- I have a bunch in my library -- but it's good to have an alternative if the cover itself isn't so hot. Incidentally are we stuck with pre-1923 or does it become pre-1924 once we hit 2007? 23skidoo 00:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly, the U.S. Congress has decreed that 1923 is it for quite a while (until 2019).  They did this on behalf of Disney, hence it's known as the Mickey Mouse Protection Act.  Chick Bowen 00:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

text: All the above being taken as read - just to say that we prefer the 1st edition as the most significant of any title published, so 1st illustrated cover or 1st title page (if the cover is nothing to write home about) is the way to go. Then we need as many "Free" images as possible to show these. Sounds good! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book cover replacement project 

message: There should be an entire template for infoboxes for everysingle literature piece of each composer, just like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Edgar_Allan_Poe tries to do, however that should be seperated in years as one user suggested. Lets get to it!68.123.226.197 19:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edgar Allan Poe works infobox 

message: This isn't about novels per se, but I thought that this WikiProject might be interested nonetheless. I have proposed :Category:Simon & Schuster for deletion because, if I understand correctly, subcategories of :Category:Book publishing companies of the United States are meant to contain subsidiaries and imprints, not books published by the company. This subcategory conatins only the latter, so I don't see it as having much value. But I thought it would be wise to solicit other opinions, either for or against. Thanks for your time. --GentlemanGhost 20:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Added my reaction to the WP:CFD page and I can't see it's value either. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  CfD: Simon & Schuster 

message: are web novels considered novels? even though they are published a chapter at a time?
Avyfain 08:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say yes - as long as they are narrative prose, the only thing is they are notoriously difficult to establish notability for. They must be notable to appear here. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Web novels

message: Found a few book/films Sonar Kella,Sounder and Susannah of the Mounties that need to be split and was wondering were they go?
Also found this Star Trek: Titan and I was hoping that someone would split that too
Jask99 18:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting 

message: Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Day Awards 

message: Peter Pan needs help.  In theory it is about the book, but the article today includes character descriptions from other books, bits about copyright, etc.  It needs to be split into several article I think, but it would be great if a few editors had a view of the best thing to do. Obina 00:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peter Pan