Talk:Valis (novel)

message: Where does James P. Blaylock appear in the book?  Or rather, what character is influenced by him? --Viriditas  | Talk 10:05, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: James P. Blaylock

message: If there are three books, and all of them are available, doesn't that imply that it is a completed trilogy?  Or is it that of the three books listed as the VALIS trilogy one of them is not a true part of the trilogy?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Earthbound01 (talk • contribs) 14:17, March 28, 2006
@earthbound
I believe there were meant to be FOUR books, and Dick died before writing the fourth.  I believe it is a grammatical confusion, the article author used "trilogy" to allude to the existence of only three books.  Perhaps a clearer reading could be had using some further qualifying explanation, or either the removal of the word "unfinished," or the changing of "trilogy" to "quadrilogy"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.244.245.5 (talk • contribs) 23:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Unfinished Trilogy

message: There was recently an AfD on Black Iron Prison (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Iron Prison), which reached a consensus to merge that article into this one. I usually perform such merges myself, but I thought that in this instance I ought to leave it up to someone more familiar with the subject at hand. --bainer (talk) 01:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most people will simply dismiss Dick's ravings as symptoms of mental illness, perhaps temporal lobe epilepsy or schizophrenia, and leave it at that.  Beyond that judgement, or in spite of it, lies a very deep rabbit hole, and it is not accessible to everyone without having something to compare it to in the first place.  So, in order to understand what Dick is saying, you must first understand yourself.  And yes, it is the allegory of the cave. —Viriditas | Talk 04:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from [[Black Iron Prison]] 

message: This is just a small list of concepts that I think could do with greater explaination.
* VALIS Actually happened. Many of the events written about in the book actually happened to Phillip K. Dick, such as being hit by a beam from 'space' and discovering his son's rare, but deadly medical condition. Much of the book is devoted to him trying to rationalise these experiences without going insane.
* Reincarnation Dick was a christian, and as such did not believe in reincarnation, but many of the things he describes make much more sense looked at from that angle. For instance, his speaking of ancient languages and the phenomena of living two lives seperate in time, yet superimposed.
* Gnosticism Although Dick was seemingly very into Gnosticism, his christian prejudices lead him to ignore a great many central gnostic concepts, such as re-incarnation, in favour of an obscure variation of Valentinian gnosticism which allowed him to keep many of his deeply held beliefs. It is quite possible that without this complex manouvering he would have gone insane.
* Black Iron Prison The true horror of the Black Iron Prison, from a gnostic point of view, is that it cannot be escaped by death, because it is actually, responsible for the phenomena of reincarnation. Thus, most humans are trapped on earth, recycled into body after body, repeating the same patterns over and over. There are tentative comments about this in VALIS (need reference) but IMHO, Dick shied away from the implications because of the effect it would have had on his sanity.
* VALIS Is supposedly a part of the benevolent deity, or Logos that has infiltrated this world, which is run by the malevolent deity, or Demiurge. This is a concept very old to gnosticism, usually expressed in the idea of the Sophia, who is the lowest emanation Logos and is usually credited with being responsible for creating the instability in the Pleroma which created the demiurge. The demiurge thinks it is alone and as such has gone insane, thus creating the world we see around us. VALIS is normally invisible, but will occassionally reveal itself to certain humans and alter thier perception of reality. The concept of something like VALIS  goes back to the gnostics, who believed that the benevolent deity was attempting to free them from the prison of reincarnation. However, people could only be freed if first they were able to actually see the prison itself. Of course, the psychological effects of being shown such things on a rational person include amazement, mania, denial, messianic complex, amnesia and many other behaviours typically associated with religious dementia, but which many be equally caused by someone attempting to  come to terms with an  Outside Context Problem.
* VALIS is always seen by Dick as being wholly a force for good, however, I think this point deserves close scrutiny, especially given it's similarity to the gnostic concept of Sophia. Sophia traditionally brings enlightenment, but often at great personal cost. For instance, in the "Hypostasis of the Archons", it was Sophia who told Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge, regardless of the consequences that it would have on them. VALIS shows the truth (gnosis) but as the end of the book adequately illustrates, it does not hang around to help those who have been touched deal with the aftermath. One could argue that this kind of shock treatment is infact very dangerous to the human involved and that if VALIS were truly benign, it would help those it has touched to integrate thier experience, instead of leaving them to quietly lose thier mind. 
Thus, it could be said that enlightenment by VALIS is an intensly bittersweet experience. Although Dick was shown many incredible things, these things also tormented him for the rest of his life as he tried to make what he had experienced fit within his pre-existing belief structure.
 
* Ok, I'll have to get some references, but that's basically it I think..
--Infernal.magnet 16:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Point one. "VALIS" actually happened needs a citation. Characterizing Dick as Christian may be premature. If I were to label him I'd call him a Gnostic, not a Christian in the modern sense. Many "Early Christians" are what we now call Gnostic. As to Reincarnation Dick and Horselover Fat both broached the subject as a somewhat different form of revisiting past lives. The idea put forth in numerous chapters being that all time periods merge and that the past self never dies. In fact most of what is stated here is opinion based on a very personal view of the book. e.g. it is not in my opinion (I know, I know) an objective analysis. William (Bill) Bean 15:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complex Metaphysical Concepts in VALIS 

message: These are opinions.
First, I don't think it's quite fair to characterize Dick's use of a fictional character to stand in for himself "this can all be viewed by the reader as a form of mental illness." True this "could" be viewed as mental illness. It could just as readily be viewed as a method of self-analysis that allows for a form of objectivity. In fact this is pointed out by Dick himself, as narrator, early in the book.
Second, in the Exegesis section it is stated that Dick claimed that VALIS...'the Earth satellite used "pink laser beams" to project thoughts into his head.' In truth it was the fictional character Horselover Fat who makes this claim. Almost all the sections of this article that attribute specific thoughts to P.K.D. are in fact in error because it was the character Horselover Fat who made these claims. See the first paragraph for an explanation regarding objectivity.
Yes, I know Dick wrote the book. But because he created a character to speak to these "observations" the use of that character should be respected in this analysis/article. After all Dick had a clear reason for using a fictional character. That reason, to provide Dick with some objectivity, should be respected. 
Third, this play-list is flawed. Philip K. Dick is the narrator, Horselover Fat is the protagonist, not the narrator.
Fourth, though critics claim that this is not a work of fiction due to the apparent parallels to Dick's own life, my personal opinion is that this is indeed a work of fiction. This is largely due to the fact that the movie, VALIS, described in the book bears little (or no) similarity to the movie "The Man Who Fell to Earth" cited as the movie that inspired the fictional movie "VALIS" described in the book.
I know this is nit-picky, but the substance of this work of fiction is lost in this article due to an over-abundance of speculation. William (Bill) Bean 15:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with the Article 

message: Uh...what? How did this novel get rated as "low" on the "importance scale"? For that matter, why is there EVEN AN IMPORTANCE SCALE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Strikes me as NPOV because, I mean, c'mon, "importance" is relatively subjective. Let me say this: Is Philip K. Dick important as an author, or just of mild importance? He's influenced modern science fiction, right? William Gibson, the Bladerunner movie...He's got a prestigious award named after him, the "Philip K. Dick" award. If anyone asks me to cite WHY Philip K. Dick himself is important to modern literature, I'm done with Wikipedia. So, given that it is my belief that Dick is important to science fiction, shouldn't any of his work be more closely scrutinized on the "importance scale"? I mean, I'm sure we're all more worried about the cultural significance of, say, someone like Chris Crocker or Kevin Fedderline, but look at the VALIS entry from Philip K. Dick's biography on Wikipedia: 
"VALIS, (1980) is perhaps Dick’s most postmodern and autobiographical novel, examining his own unexplained experiences (see above). It may also be considered his most academically studied work, and was adapted as an opera by Tod Machover.[14] VALIS was voted Philip K. Dick‘s best novel at the website philipkdickfans.com.[15]." And yet this same encyclopedia has decided to rank (judge) this novel as being of "low importance". There's a grand inconsistency here. 
If I sound bitter, it's because I am. Wikipedia lately seems bogged down by unnecessary rules and off-kilter decisions made by editors who clearly have various agendas. Look at what happened because senior admin (or whatever they're called here) MONGO didn't like the entry on Encyclopedia Dramatica, because they had insulted him (The ED article was deleted). Or there's the example of the Chris Crocker debate (It was determined that he was significant, and that the article should not, in fact, be deleted, despite the deletion of articles on things/people far more significant). Or that whole debacle of "Trivia" being discouraged. It's things like this that cause me to rapidly lose respect for Wikipedia. Zebraic 22:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page history shows that User:Kevinalewis assessed it as "low" on 4 August 2006.  It's not such a big deal; the article importance assesesments are usually used for internal purposes by the project, usually to prioritize the workload.  Due to the inherent subjective nature of the importance classification scheme, many projects have stopped using it altogether.  Now, as a fan of PKD, I would suggest that a "low" importance for this particular book on WikiProject Novels is probably correct, but a higher importance could be placed on let's say, the science-fiction project. —Viriditas | Talk 09:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: VALIS: "LOW LITERARY IMPORTANCE"!?

message: I'm not sure where to put this, as I am not familiar with all Wikipedia guidelines yet (and doubt I will ever be; I try to keep up, but the policies are ever-changing.).  However, the talk page seemed to redirect me here, so I'm putting it here. 
I want the importance of this article reassessed, please. I'll outline why. I apologize if this is in the wrong spot, and, if so, I shall move it. 
An article on the novel "VALIS" is important because the novel "VALIS" itself is important, within its genre and within the body of work of Philip K. Dick. This is the basic hypothesis of my argument, for which I intend to build evidence. 
First, I believe that Philip K. Dick has proven remarkably (here meaning "enough to be remarked upon") influential to the science-fiction genre. However, I understand that I've got to back this belief up. Fortunately, there's a lot of evidence to back it up. Just a cursory glance at the resultant pages a search for his name via Google reveals makes his influence clear. Examples: Richard Behrens, writer and critic for the magazine 'The Modern World' had this to say about K. Dick: "The influence of Philip K. Dick on contemporary culture is widespread. On the most obvious level, there are countless projects drawing direct inspiration from his works. While the most famous of these is undoubtedly Ridley Scott’s seminal film Blade Runner, there’s also the Philip K. Dick award for science fiction, Tod Machover’s electronic opera VALIS, and numerous fictional homages set in “Dickian” worlds[...]But on a more profound level, Philip K. Dick’s writing has virtually inscribed its own literary niche, a combination of stylistic tropes and recurring themes occupying the space between genre science fiction and the postmodern literature of the 'technological sublime.'"  In an article about Dick titled "Science master", columnist Lisa Tuttle of the Times Online (London Times) speaks about his post-humus fame and influence, and the importance of his contributions to science fiction. . Adam Gopnik, writing for the New Yorker, makes the case that PKD fan community tends to paint him as an under-acknowledged author while, in truth, following 1963's The Man in the High Castle Dick was famous. Gopnik also acknowledges Philip K. Dick's influence by stating that "Dick’s mixture of satire and fantasy has inspired countless films".   . Art Spiegelman holds that "What Franz Kafka was to the first half of the 20th century, Philip K. Dick is to the second half." Without overburdening anyone with quotes, I also most state (or re-state) that Dick has an arguably prestigious award named after him, his novel "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" was voted the 8th most significant book in science fiction of the past 50 years (falling below "Neuromancer", which surprised me, and above "Fahrenheit 451", which also sort of surprised me) by the Science Fiction Book Club, and influenced notable modern comic book writers such as Grant Morrison. I know, I know, to me it would seem a "given" that Philip K. Dick is influential--But I also feel like it needs to be sourced, for the benefit of my fellow Wikipedians (I don't want to get called out, basically, by folks stating, "How was he influential? Where are your sources?"), and for what I am about to say next.
So I think the modern importance of Philip K. Dick has been well established.  That having been said, as influential as he evidently was, the importance of any novel written and published by him should garner review of importance. I acknowledge that Dick was a prolific writer, and, as such, many of his books and novellas and short stories are --by virtue of the mass of material to which they belong-- of low importance, taken singularly. Others, such as "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" and "The Man in the High Castle" are clearly, critically acknowledged works of no small importance. I don't think that "VALIS" is important like the aforementioned novels; I believe its influence and import to PKD's body of work, and science fiction at large, is a bit different than those other two. In some ways, "VALIS" is arguably more influential than "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?". This is because, while "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" obviously became famous in the world of pop culture through its movie version, "VALIS" may, as stated in the Wikipedia article on Philip K. Dick, "be considered his most academically studied work" (No, I didn't write that, but here are academic discourses to give precedent, or source, to that statement: ,,[http ://www.philipkdickfans.com/articles/demeesterpkdthesis3.htm A thesis analyzing the 'Universe of Philip K. Dick' in which "VALIS" is central], ,).  Furthermore, "VALIS"'s importance is one of importance to the life of Dick himself. It is acknowledged as a "semi-fictional" auto-biography in which the writer deals with certain important experiences he had on and following February 3rd, 1974. These experiences influenced his final 8 years of writing. My point being, here, that "VALIS", as an autobiography dealing in specific impacts to the life of an influential science fiction author, must be at least considered to possess some importance. Further, a reassessment of the importance of an article on the book in question should take into consideration the fact that fans of Dick on the website philipkdickfans.com voted "VALIS" their favorite story[http ://www.philipkdickfans.com/pkdweb/HorseraceResults.htm]. Another factor to consider in reassessment of "VALIS"'s importance is its influence in other works, such as Grant Morrison's "The Invisibles"(Not to mention "The Filth" and parts of his Doom Patrol run), the The Matrix Trilogy, a modern musical by Tod Machover (adapted from the novel), a comic-depicted version of "VALIS" events illustrated by R. Crumb[http ://www.philipkdickfans.com/weirdo.htm]. 
In summary, I hold that the importance of the novel "VALIS", and any subsequent article (ie, the current Wikipedia entry) ranks above "low importance". However, I  also admit that it is not of the highest importance, yet.  Zebraic 05:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reassessing the Importance of VALIS

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: As someone who came upon this page casually without any previous knowledge of VALIS, but wishing to find out about it, it makes absolutely no sense. I don't understand any of it, and I believe the point of Wikipedia is the complete opposite of that. It seems to me that whoever wrote this article did so under the assumption that the reader already has prior knowledge of the book, which defies the point completely. I learned more from the discussion page than I did from the actual article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.244.67 (talk) 20:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You're absolutely right.  The entire article needs to be rewritten.  Many editors neglect or forget the reader. Viriditas (talk) 11:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

text: My impression today, some ten years later, was that this VALIS was not the same VALIS that I had read. If I can find my copy I may attempt to repair the article. For one thing, I remember nothing about the Black Iron Prison from the book, although clearly the whole theme of the book is Gnosticism. Wastrel Way (talk) Eric  —Preceding undated comment added 14:26, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, in fact, the book I read was 'Radio Free Albemuth', not VALIS. So my memory was good enough to remember that a lot of the things in this article were not in the book I read, although not good enough to remember the title of the book... Wastrel Way (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Article Makes No Sense 

message: There's a goth rock band out there that has a song called VALIS.  Anyone remember it? 122.107.56.47 (talk) 09:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pop culture reference.

message: I removed the following from the article, and bring it here for discussion:
:Dick's friends (and fellow science fiction writers) K.W. Jeter (Kevin) and Tim Powers (David) appear as thinly disguised characters in the novel, and along with Dick, as members of the "Rhipidon Society", with the motto, "Fish Cannot Carry Guns!"  It is also said that James P. Blaylock appears in the book.
Is there a reference for any of this?  These claims have to have a source.  I removed similar information from the main characters section for the same reason.  Can someone please verify this? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 03:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: --Jerzy•t 00:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rhipidon Society 

message: I restrained myself from an  tag, not so much bcz of my uncertainty that it's accurate as from awareness that the topic requires special care that may best be elicited on the talk page. And on reflection, i wonder if the interim solution i'm implementing may not be a crucial exception to what i assume is the usual approach: I'm putting the "Characters" section before the "Synopsis" one, and then looking for a more professional account of the plot (which for some unknown reason [wink] it hasn't stuck with me). Without clear, early discussion of the author's willful confusion of author and character, the accompanying article is a candidate for Most Mis-informative Article on Wikipedia.  --Jerzy•t 19:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  In-Universe? 

message: i've been trying to get into the black iron prison for some months now. and todayyy i go there and realize that i had already been there 25 years ago.  i read valis when i was twenty used to have the book but gave it away.  im writing a comic book called logos: the unbelievable truth and am using the pkd character in each of the 11 issues.  the pkd estate says no you can't but i say yes we can.  the doctor, the professor, the mystery writer, foal paravour, the prophet, pkd as a pill, an android, he can be whoever you want him to be!  long live pkd, long live the wikipedia, long live the logos, the love police, shauwn walker and the silence.
22.06.11 the second day of summer.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shauwn walker (talk • contribs) 11:24, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  so valis is the black iron prison?