Talk:Morgan le Fay

message: "Because Arthur did not know his sisters, Morgan seduced him and gave birth to their son, the wicked inbreed Mordred. (According to the legend, Mordred grew to manhood away from Arthur's court, and eventually killed his father, bringing an end to the Arthurian age.) "
Originally, that was Morgause (another of Arthur's sisters) not Morgan in the legend (check with Le Morte d'Arthur and Once and Future King). However in more modern works (like Mists of Avalon or the mini-series Merlin), they often combine the 2, possibly to make Morgan's characters seem more maleficent. I'm not sure exactly when this started, but if someone who knows could expound that'd be great.
- Jsan 17:25, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's see... John Boorman's Excalibur just pips The Mists of Avalon as the earliest thing I know of with that trope in. Maybe it was something in the air in the early 80s, and a bunch of people all came up with it independently. Anybody know of anything earlier? —Paul A 01:42, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: "Morgan le Fay" may be bad French, but centuries of usage have given it respectability and a degree of seniority. Nobody writing in English ever uses "Morgan la Faye" (or, for that matter, "Morgan the Fairy"), so it would be incorrect to use that as the name of the article. --Paul A 04:12, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: Morgan le Fay has no fay powers? "Morgan" has no connection with an Irish goddess of war: Morrigan? The fay queen is a standard figure of early Celtic mythology. Merlin the magician himself is hard to Christianize, as in Vita Merlini. Have a look at Brian Edward Rise, "Morgan le Fay" HtH. --Wetman 08:22, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Brian Rise article seems to be entirely conjectural -- at least, he offers no references, and a number of his conclusions are, to say the least, surprising.Martin Turner 13:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Does the author who placed "and in recent years has been increasingly seen by feminist revisionists as the human representation of the archetypical goddess element" have any sources to indicate that this is a revisionist statement? Also, the association between feminism and revisionism is of a disputable viewpoint. I would question that the statement is made from an NPOV. --Cgranade 07:31, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
: I agree. I'll make some small edits... see what you think (if you're still hanging around). :) Janet13 13:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've always thought that line was nonsense. The character of Morgan le Fay is a medieval Christian creation, though clearly inspired by older Celtic elements, among other things. "Medieval Christianity" had no problem "assimilating" benevolent enchantresses- she is benevolent in a number of works, not to mention the Lady of the Lake. I'll work on it.--Cúchullain t/c 20:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I replaced the line with more on her actual appearances in literature, rather than conjecture. I hope it's more informative now.--Cúchullain t/c 22:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better. Thank you.Martin Turner 15:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NOPV? 

message: I came to this article expecting to learn about  Morgan LeFay, as in, the Welsh Goddess of Death, Fate, the Sea and of Curses. Any help? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.167.233.7 (talk) 23:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Morgan was not a goddess. She was a fictional magician, as you can read in the article.--Cúchullain t/c 23:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I believe you're thinking of the Morrígan. TAnthony 00:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Morgan LeFay...the Goddess? 

message: I think it is notable, though perhaps apocryphal, that today's Rhys/Rice family traces their lineage back through Uryan and Margaret La Faye. This genealogy obviously influenced the claim that Morgan le Fay was wed to a Urien. Here's an interesting URL that describes Lord Rhys, a bit of his genealogy, and Dinefwr Castle. It also mentions Margaret La Faye. There are lots of other references about this genealogy online if you wanted to peruse the entire pedigree. I will leave this to the page author to include as he or she sees fit. The URL to the castle web site is http://llandeilo.org/dp_middle.php. --Pulsadinura 18:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genealogy 

message: I've read Morgan = Morgiana (she of Ali Baba fame), i.e., the legend may have come from the East...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.74.1 (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: rs, http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Morgan_Le_Faye  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.63.60 (talk) 13:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  pop culture 

message: Since a new interpretation of Morgan/Morgana is currently at the centre of a popular TV series airing worldwide, I think it's justifiable to include her in the "later interpretations" section. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 12:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. It's no more notable than the dozens or hundreds of works featuring Morgan that we don't mention - it's just more recent.--Cúchullain t/c 12:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm sure a lot of those other works deserve mention too. I was rather expecting that the article would discuss the diversity of later interpretations and it seems a huge oversight that by and large it doesn't. --85.210.14.252 (talk) 12:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be one thing if anyone provided reliable, secondary sources discussing later interpretations of the character. But just listing off the myriad modern works in which Morgan appears is not particularly useful or encyclopedic.--Cúchullain t/c 14:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a paragraph about the Merlin series (which is current, and being broadcast internationally, which satisfies most notability requirements right there) due to the fact the series is taking a notably different approach to the character. Wikipedia should not be elitist and discount sources that are notable - an internationally broadcast television series is inherently notable - however I wouldn't be opposed to a separate article on "Interpretations of Morgan le Fay" being created (not "Morgan le Fay in popular culture" as I understand the tin hats decided to ban those types of articles here). The Merlin version could be included along with a number of others (there was even a Doctor Who version played by Jean Marsh at one point). 68.146.81.123 (talk) 16:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately it's not sourced to reliable, third-party sources, which is what we need for this section.--Cúchullain t/c 18:05, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Merlin

message: From the article:"The medieval romance Floriant et Florete places Morgan's mountain home of Montegibel on Sicily, and later Italian folklore describes Morgan as living in Mount Etna". It is not clear, however Montegibel and Mount Etna are the same mountain: Mongibello is an alternative name for Mount Etna (Mon = Monte = Mount and Gibello = Gibel an arab word). 84.222.237.182 (talk) 16:33, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: In folklore

message: A probable etymology of the word may derive an ancient Greek city of Sicily. The name Morgan le Fay with ancient place names Sicilian type the ancient city of Morgantina and the people of Morganti (both the city that the people are located where once worshiped goddesses of matrons of Sicily).In addition to this the Celtic gods of the underworld are the Goddess and the God Erecura Pater and are derived from greek-Roman deities Persephone or Kore (Persephone) and Hades (Pluto) with the same myth (the Rape of Proserpine where Pluto kidnaps Persephone takes as a wife and the door to the underworld). This myth takes place near Etna (where one of the inputs of Tartarus) on a lake Lake Pergusa where is the entrance to the world of Hades (Lake Pergusa was famous in antiquity and still is for a particular phenomenon that because of its salinity at certain times of the year its waters become dark red like a lake of blood), in this place is the ancient city of Morgantina.The city of Morgantina ( king Morgen) the seat of the cult of Demeter and Kore Persfone or (this was the center where he worshiped the goddess of fertility and the underworld that were a symbol for Sicily), this city is located next to Lake Pergusa (the sacred place where you set the myth of the rape of Persephone) and is an area near Mount Etna. Curiously roman goddess of the hunt. According to the Vulgate Merlin, had its charm, given to Diana, which caused Viviane (the Lady of the Lake) to be so tempting for Merlin. The Vulgate Lancelot tells us that she was the Queen of Sicily, but considered a goddess by his subjects pagan fools. The continuation post -vulgata Merlin describes how he killed her lover to be with another man, but then he was beheaded by this man to be a murderess. This story was later transferred to a lake in France, and was later called the Lake of Diana.--151.34.11.200 (talk) 14:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok...sorry for my English...all that is written is true and based on etmologie and archeology. Please let you take care to add in proper English encyclopedic, thanks--151.44.157.135 (talk) 01:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Probable etymology and origin of the Morgan le Fay 

message: There are other important medieval sources that speak of the Morgan le Fay in Sicily in addition to those already listed in folklore; in the sources is often spoken of Mount Etna indicated as Aetna, and Arabic Gibel or MontGibel, these sources are:
* Jaufre (ca.1180) Arthurian romance langue d'oc;
* La Bataille Loquifer (ca1170);
* Wolfram von Eschenbach (ca. 1210) Parzifal;
* Cat Lupet (pseudonym of an Italian poet XIII approx);--151.34.11.200 (talk) 14:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OK,but here you made a small mistake : 
* Attested in Sicily in Breton and Provencal literature for example in Jaufre (an Occitan language Arthurian romance from c. 1180) and La Bataille Loquifer (c. 1170), among these, an important historical figure Breton is Ansgerio first bishop of Catania.
all this is true and is available online (respectively finds Morgan le Fay in Mongibel or Gibel); and Breton bishop of Catania Ansgerio : Bishop Angerius of Catania in Sicily. Catania and Caithness were often written identically. See G. W. S. Barrow, "Angerius Brito, Cathensis Episcopus", in Traditio, xxvi, (1970), p. 351.
TAKE A LOOK AT PAGE "Bishop of Caithness".
*According to the Vulgate Merlin, had its charm, given to Diana, which caused Viviane (the Lady of the Lake) to be so tempting for Merlin. The Vulgate Lancelot tells us that she was the Queen of Sicily, but considered a goddess by his subjects pagan fools. The continuation post-vulgata Merlin describes how he killed her lover to be with another man, but then he was beheaded by this man to be a murderess. This story was later transferred to a lake in France, and was later called the Lake of Diana.
This content is quoted on the sources of the voice: Bruce, Christopher W. (1999). The Arthurian Name Dictionary. Taylor & Francis. . Retrieved 24 May 2010.
SOURCE NUMBER 14 is available online: Looking letter "D" serch "Diana [Dyan(n)e]"
Please let you take care. is the best way to replace the contents, thanks--151.44.157.135 (talk) 01:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other important sources on medieval literature 

message: This page is dedicated to the Arthurian character from a scientific point of view-logic-literary history ... is not a text of prayers or spells Wiccan or neo-paganism ... There is no connection between the Morgan la fay and Welsh Goddess (POV neopagans wiccan) ... the page is blocked after an edit war with the user Cagwinn (Pov neo pagan wiccan). What do we do?--151.68.52.142 (talk) 00:06, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that's strange! Here I am thinking I am an atheist and didn't even realize that I was secretly a "POV neo pagan wiccan"! LOL! Go away, troll! The article has been locked due to your persistent vandalism and removal of material with source citations. You are the one pushing a POV here, not me! I am simply maintaining order. Cagwinn (talk) 00:23, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has been blocked for unregistered users ... but it can be modified by registered users. You talk about trolling ... what are your intentions...The problem is clear: Morgan le fay has no connection with the Welsh goddess, it is two different historical contexts. What it (Cagwinn) is inpossibile. But you have reliable sources of what you support? The reliable sources have to be of a scientific archaeological and NO anthropological-religious and wiccan-pagan ok? only sources scientific archaeological... please.--151.46.52.211 (talk) 11:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You are ranting like a madman - you are not even making any sense! The material that you are trying to remove comes from a reliable, scholarly source (Rachel Bromwich, one of the most respected scholars in Celtic and Arthurian studies), not "wiccan-pagan" religious doctrine (or whatever it is you are imagining - hard to tell, since your English is so terrible). Cagwinn (talk) 18:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV SPIRITUAL 

message: I wonder if *mori-gena is correct. According to Albert Deshayes (Dictionnaire des prénoms celtiques) G in gena would have mutated to C'H in Breton (Morc'hen) and to Y in Welsh (Moryen). He thinks the fact that the letter remains unchanged means that it comes from Old Breton mor (great) and kann (radiance), with K mutating to G.
Also, the Breton morganez (mermaid) comes from mor (sea), kan (sing, with K => G) and -ez (feminine suffix).
Maybe one of these etymologies (or both) should be included in the article.--Aziliz Breizh (talk) 12:05, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You have to keep in mind that the name Morgen first appears in the mid-12th century work of a man who was surely a native French speaker (Geoffrey of Monmouth) and who, despite the fact that he was writing in Latin, was still influenced by the spelling conventions of his native tongue; if we look at another Welsh personal name in Geoffrey's Vita Merlini, Thelgesinus, which is derived from Welsh Taliesin, we can see that for an Old French speaker like Geoffrey, the letter -g- when followed by -e- had a sound approximately like our English -j-, thus Morgen would have been pronounced "Morjen" by him (otherwise, if he intended it to have a hard -g-, he would have spelled the name *Morguen, as per Old French spelling conventions) and could have come to him via medieval Welsh/Middle Breton Morien (earlier spelled Morgen) or Old Irish Muirgein.Cagwinn (talk) 15:35, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology of "Morgan" 

message: I wonder how "Morgane la fée" (Morgane the fairy) became "Morgane le Fay"?
: Same thing, no difference. Fée is the Old French spelling, while Fay is the middle/modern English spelling (the word was borrowed from Old French, mind you). Cagwinn (talk) 20:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Morgane la fée 

message: "She becomes (...) a vindictive adversary of Arthur the Round Table". What does that mean? Is there something missing between "Arthur" and "the Round Table"? The latter seems to be used as an appellative of Arthur, which makes no sense. Was it meant to be "Arthur['s] Round Table?" "Arthur [and his] Round Table?" "Arthur [at the time he had established] the Round Table"? Kumagoro-42 12:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incomprehensible sentence 

message: For grammar issues. --94.246.144.29 (talk) 17:05, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  It might need a copyedit  

message: I think there is an issue with the following sentence in the article: "According to Loomis, Geoffrey was not the original inventor of Morgan's character, which had already existed in unrecorded stories of her as Arthur's fairy savior or even also his fairy godmother as being told by wandering storytellers (as credited by Gerald of Wales) that would influence various authors writing independently from each other, especially since Vita Merlini was a little known text that only survived in one manuscript." I realize that Loomis believed this, but there is no evidence to support it and the words "which had already existed in unrecorded stories" could be confusing to readers, as we have already established a few paragraphs above that Morgen appears for the first time in Geoffrey's works and "unrecorded stories", by virtue of being unrecorded(!), should be qualified by a word such as "hypothetical", or something along those lines. Cagwinn (talk) 16:53, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loomis on Morgan 

message: , ping me when you're ready to do a peer review...great work!!! Atsme✍🏻📧 00:44, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Progress? 

message: As far as I know, "fay" is derived from Romance "fata" which means a "goddess of fate". Therefore the gender should be female. Is there any explanation for this?--2003:CE:BBD4:D7A1:9C43:CFF4:26CF:FC8E (talk) 12:18, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: See the section Etymology and origins in this article, and this site also explains why it's le in lieu of la. Wikipedia uses the most common and/or ubiquitous name for its titles. See WP:NAMINGCRITERIA.  Hope that helps.  , perhaps you should add something a bit easier for readers to find regarding why it's le in lieu of la?? Atsme✍🏻📧 13:39, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why "le Fay" and not "la Fay"?