Talk:Kerala/Archive 1

message: Modified the political comment about the democratically elected communist government. I went through the page history and noticed a lot of 'is' and 'was' modifications. Governments come and go, so I felt it was better to change the languaging of the line so it wouldn't need changes every 5 years or less.
Jay 23:10, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: political comment

message: # Many people say A. R. Rahman is a Tamil Mudaliar. Could someone please help with references?
# M. Night Shyamalan is born for Malayalee father and Tamil mother, AFAIK. So, is it ok to keep his name?
--Rrjanbiah 13:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keralites? 

message: Could someone please check the contributions to this page made by 203.199.213.194?
Most of the contributions by this user are vandalism, but I can't tell if the changes to this page are legit.
Thanks.  JEL 22:05, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible vandalism by 203.199.213.194 

message: Does anyone watching this have  or -licensed free photos of pookkalam of Onam? If so, please upload them. --  10:23, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
:I hope there are more contributors now. Does anyone have the images? -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: It is considered to be a false story by many keralites. Christian culture is a part of Kerala from anicient period but the claim of St Thomas Tradition cant be approved.
The proof and some facts will appear very soon 202.83.52.23
It better be good 152.78.254.131 14:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  St Thomas In Kerala ??? 

message: It is ironic that many indians do not believe that St Thomas reached kerala, but they proudly say that india was the only place which did not persecute the Jews. If Jews could reach kerala over 2500 years ago, so could st thomas. Because St thomas was Jewish and one of those Jews who reached the malabar coast. It is ironic that indians accept that cochin Jews are the oldest settlement of Jews outside the Mediterranean World, but they keep on denying that syrian christians are of Jewish origin or that they were Jews converted by the Jewish apostle st thomas. It only shows the double standards of the people. At one hand they want to show India as a tolerant nation better than any other. On the other hand they want to say that christianity did not exist in India from its very beginning. 
Until recently, at least in kerala people did not doubt the arrival of st thomas the apostle. It is only after the rise of fundamentalist-nationalist parties in India over two decades, that people are trying to write revisionist history even in kerala.
It was stated: "Many people from Kerala including me believe that this story is not historically accurate."
Well this is an encyclopedia and this is not a place to write about what you believe but what the historians have concluded. The authors who you have quoted Godfrey Higgins and Tom Harpur are just writers who express their views and not historians. There are several ideas by people but they are not written in an encyclopedia. Only theories of historians or scientists about the historical events or scientific idea are taken as valid references in encyclopedia. Individual writers may write similar views as you hold but they are not academic scholars or historians or scientists.
Besides the Knanaya nasranis came from Canaan. Syria on the other hand is related to the Assyrian Empire not Surya. If you are going to relate history because of similar sounding words then it is all fallacious. It is like saying, because the bat has wings it is a bird. But the bat is not a bird, instead it is a mammal even though it has wings. In the same way similar sounding words do not show any relation between two concepts. 
it was stated: "This tale comes from the fact that when Portuguese Christian missionaries arrived in southern India they found a sect who worshipped a god named “Thomas” and whose religion was nearly identical to Christianity. The missionaries created elaborate stories to explain the presence of the “St. Thomas Christians,” claiming that the apostles Thomas and/or Bartholomew had at some point traveled to India and preached and died there" 
Most of all the portuguese christian missionaries did not call the nasranis as st thomas christians, instead completely contrary to what you say, the portuguese persecuted the nasranis and called them Judaizers.
In 2002 the british historian William Dalrymple demonstrated how st thomas along with other Jews navigated from the mediterranean world to south India. Besides, there was a sea- trade route between the mediterranean world and the malabar coast. Numerous coins from the mediterranean world have been found in kerala and have been preserved in museums in kerala and around the world. The exploration by William dalrymple about st thomas was documented in 2002 by the BBC and shown all over the world. Please see the documentary it is appropriately called by the BBC as Doubting Thomas because they saw the double standards of how Indians doubt the arrival of St thomas and yet have no doubt about the arrival of Cochin Jews. The BBC documentary shows the route followed by ancient Jews to the malabar coast and also the oldest synagogues and churches founded by these Jews. Personal ideas should never over-run facts especially when  scientists have taken pains to investigate and document facts.
----
Questioning the St. Thomas story is not a recent phenomenon.  "It is only after the rise of fundamentalist-nationalist parties in India over two decades, that people are trying to write revisionist history even in kerala".  This statement is totally false.  Godfrey Higgins (not an Indian or a Malayale) wrote his book in 1835.  He is not just a writer.  He is considered one of the best historians of his time.  There were many European historians who questioned this story about St. Thomas in the 18th century.  Why would Christian writers and historians who were citizens of Christian empires (Britain and France) dispute this story in the 17th and 18th century?  This is not my personal idea.  Nor is this story a scientific fact.  Where is the archaeological evidence of Christian influence in India from the first century onwards?  India was visited by Greeks, Romans, Ethiopians and Chinese travelers throughout history.  There is no mention of St. Thomas in any of their books.  Do we possess Greek and Latin books, any Bible from the early centuries translated into any Indian language?  Do we have any Christian monuments from this early period?  The first church dedicated to St. Bartholomew was built in 1503 by the Portuguese in Fort Cochin.
Study of the origin of words and letters is not a fallacy.  It is called Etymology.  It is a science.  It is by using these scientific methods that experts group languages and then tries to find out the source and relationships between them (e.g.) "Indo-European" languages and "Dravidian" languages. According to DNA testing and tracing the mutations of the Y chromosome in man, the first settlement of modern humans in India was 55,000 years ago ("The Journey of Man: A genetic Odyssey" by PBS (http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=1402621)).  It is a fact that human beings were traveling back and forth between India and Middle East and Africa for thousands of years.  Lot of coins and artifacts has been exchanged from one to the other.  This is called trading. However, this does not prove that St. Thomas visited India or the Christian religion existed in India from the very beginning.  Unfortunately the history of India particularly in the last 2000 years is presented from a European stand point. A statement is made that "Well this is an encyclopedia and this is not a place to write about what you believe but what the historians have concluded".  The fact of the matter is that historians have not concluded that Jesus or other Gods of other religions are historical or mythical figures.  The way the history is told conveniently ignores evidence that points to the fact that Abrahamic religions (Judaism and Christianity) have Indian origins. In the information age issues like this can no longer be suppressed and swept under the carpet.
According to Strongs Concordance (a very useful tool for studying the scriptures)(http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/8/1132621385-1270.html), the Biblical word "Thomas" is derived from the Aramaic, which in turn is from the Semitic root "taam", meaning "twin" or, as in Parkhurst's Lexicon "dark".  In Sanskrit dictionary, "tamas," "tamasa" or "taamasa" means "darkness, inertia, ignorance".  Another word for "dark" in Sanskrit is "Krsna" or Krishna.  Another interesting fact is that the South Indians who are worshiping the Holy Tamas (the dark Krishna) call their language Tam-ul (or Tamil).  All major South Indian languages are derived from the great Tamil language.  Worship of the Tamas goes back thousands of years before the Common Era (BCE).
I would like to mention that I am not in any way anti-Christian.  My intension is not to offend any ones feelings.  When great claims are made it requires great evidence to back it up.  It should be able to withstand scrutiny and debate.  Kerala is a beautiful state and a true melting pot.  I grew up with many Christian and Muslim friends from Kerala.  I still continue to cherish those relationships.  I believe in any relationship being truthful is very important.  I also believe as the Bible says that "The Truth Shall Set You Free".
-------------
To whoever wrote the previous paragraphs:
Godfrey Higgins died in 1833 so he obviously could not have written a book in 1835 unless it was completed by someone else or published in 1835 as opposed to written in 1835. But few historians have accepted his views on Christ or Christianity. Even before the arrival of Europeans in India, Thomas_(Apostle) was considered an "Apostle for India and Asia" in early Christian writings. Please understand that from the late 18th century, groundwork was being laid towards colonialization and imperialism, and Christianity provided rather controversially, the right of a country to rule the colonized. In such a situation, why do you think any historian of that time would accept that an apostle of Christ, had travelled to India before Christianity reached the shores of Britain ? As for the rest of the evidence you seek, apart from Flavius Josephus, there is no mention of Christ in Roman writings; besides, there is no evidence that Vedic Hinduism was prevalent in Kerala either, until late 8th century. The existing Hindu temples in Kerala were Jain or Buddhist temples of an earlier period.     Indianxian 01:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: St Thomas controversy and double standards of Indians

message: I dont know how the logo of sikkim matches with that of Kerala.
Replacing it with the actual thing soon Tux the penguin 13:06, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seal Change 

message: I'm protecting this page for at least a day or so. We seem to have a combination of edit warring and linkspamming going on. Please work out your differences (and sign your posts). Thank you. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 06:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protecting

message: Just to guage consensus, I'd like to take a vote on whether we should use the new state infobox design in this article (see Template:Kerala infobox) or the "standard" design (see Template:India state infobox). We can run this for about a week. Thanks. Saravask 21:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon my ignorance, but what articles will this template be used ? Tintin Talk 22:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm planning on using it only here, on the Kerala article. I don't like imposing my designs or opinions on other people's work (templates and articles included). Saravask 22:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  
Vote
 

message: Let me state my reasons as to why Kerala needs an adapted template:
# Information in Template:India state infobox is organized illogically. An example is the listing of the "Governor" and "Chief Minister" fields as subfields under "Legislature", even though these two offices are not part of the legislative branch of Kerala's government. This is ridiculous. There are other examples of this. Meanwhile, the new design lists "Governor", "Chief Minister", and "Legislature" equally under the "Formation" heading, as that is the indeed the date that the government was inaugurated. The headings and data in Template:India state infobox also, with all due respect to its designers, exhibits poor organization compared to those of other nations — minutiae such as the ISO abbreviation is afforded an important position near the top while more important data such as area and population appear near the bottom. Also, data that are natural derivatives/correlates of each other (such as population, area and their derivative population density) are not grouped under each other. I've corrected all these by organizing data with respect to relative importance  — that is to say, what do Wikipedia readers want to see and know first about Kerala? I'm going to hazard the guess that ISO abbreviation will not be the third thing they want to know (what percentage of readers even know (or care) what an ISO abbreviation is), but rather things like official language, population, area, etc.). Also, I've given greater consideration to grouping data via common themes.
# Information in Template:India state infobox does not include the government website, which is something included in Template:Canadian province or territory, Template:Australia state or territory, Template:US state, Template:Japanese prefecture, and other comparatively elegant and well-designed and considered subterritory templates. Why not? This is something many readers want to see first, so they can learn more about the state.
# Template:India state infobox is relatively immense, bulky, and wasteful of space — note in particular how the side margins around the map and the state seal were squandered on empty space conveying no information. Because of this, while the old design is 300px, the new one (which cuts out the waste) is only 225px. While the old design extends far down the page due to this wasted space and poor design, the new one utilizes space efficiently (for example, tucking the coat of arms inside the title bar and matching map size to infobox size). In sum, the new design is more slim, more functional, and more elegant, and less obtrusive. This is why I couldn't insert the three new district, ecozone, and backwaters maps until I had switched to Template:Kerala infobox — the old template was simply crowding the additions out and creating ugly layout problems.
# Lastly, not all country subdivisions use standard bulk templates. Look at Arizona, for example. They adapted the standard template for that page; this is all I want done here. Saravask 22:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet, despite these alterations, I've attempted accomodation of the standard template by making the new design resemble to the greatest extent possible Template:India state infobox — the colors, rough shape, location, map position, etc. all match. I really don't think readers will care if there are slight differences in data presentation. I didn't redesign Template:India state infobox itself simply because (notwithstanding WP:OWN) I don't like meddling in other people's templates, articles, and affairs. Saravask 23:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: OK. I've reverted Kerala back to use of the standard version (Template:India state infobox) for now, until I make the suggested proposal. Saravask 08:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background for new infobox design 

message: This template can be used as a footer - Template:Andhra_Pradesh, Of-course after making changes as required ;) --Gurubrahma 15:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another template 

message: The Trivia section was re-added by some user - do any of you really think it is necessary to have this? --Khoikhoi 04:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Repetitive facts like the literacy rate, life expectancy, highest tele density etc can be remoced. Arundathi roy, rushdie may be kept.--Raghu 05:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The section needs to go. I have never seen an article with a "Trivia" section pass FAC — there, such unencyclopedic clusterfuck is generally frowned upon. Saravask 06:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: IMNSHO, none of the things in the trivia section are too interesting. Tintin Talk 07:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it can be removed. :-)--Raghu 07:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia section 

message: This link gives the length of usable waterways in India. It is around 5,700 km. So proportion for Kerala will be around 8 %. The sentence could appropriately be modified.
--Raghu 07:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I'll put that in now. Saravask 07:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Waterway Length 

message: # The literacy mentioned in the intro and the trivia section do not agree.
:The figure in the intro is referenced to the UNDP and the 2001 census; the "Trivia" figure is not — that's why I referred to the "Trivia" section as a "clusterfuck" (it is a cruft-laden dump of unreferenced trivia) and stated that it should be deleted. Saravask 22:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. It was supposed to be "mm", not "crore". Saravask 22:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I've put in both versions now. Saravask 22:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I've addressed this by inserting "two of". Saravask 23:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: When I spot such double-usages, I'll try and correct them. Saravask 23:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Done. Thanks. Saravask 23:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the critique. I'll probably ending up acting on this, but for now I'll wait until the peer review and FAC. I've unfortunately found some people don't like these transition words, while others think they are needed to contribute to the smooth "flow" of the text (I've heard both opinions). I don't want to remove them now, only to be told later by someone else that I need to reinsert them. Saravask 23:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: The usual categorisation of the districts are: Malabar, Kochi and Travancore. With Malabar consisting of districts north of Palakkad, inluding Palakkad. Kochi consiting of Trissur and Ernakulam. And the remaining districts in the south falling in Travancore. Historically and demographically this is the better way of categorisation.--Raghu 03:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Saravask 03:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Districts 

message: Does anyone know what the phrase "Keliyaadum Kalakalkkellam Keralamennoru" means? Saravask 07:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase is incomplete. If you can provide the full context I can translate.--Raghu 13:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Found it here, page 6, top of second column. Thanks. Saravask 13:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation needed 

message: Hey Saravask. I was a little uncomfortable with this map from the beginning itself. Because the legend has both soil types(black soil, red sandy etc) and geographical names(Palakkad plains, Kuttanad etc). This can be confusing. I checked the reference from where you took this. Please look at the it's related page. This gives all regions by soil types. The other option is to show only the three regions: lowland , midland and highland by three colours. regards --Raghu 10:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kerala ecozones map 

message: I'ld like to remove the following paragraph:
:In subsequent centuries, settlers from abroad established Kerala's Jewish community. Later arrivals included Muslim Arab merchants in the 8th century, while a disputed theory has Christianity arriving with Apostle Thomas in 52 CE. Later, in 345 CE, Kerala’s Nasrani community was founded by Jewish Christians settlers under Knai Thoma. More than 1,100 years later, Vasco da Gama’s 1498 May 20 arrival inaugurated a period of Portuguese colonial administration, with the goal of controlling a lucrative spice trade. While seeking to convert Nasranis to Roman Catholicism, they also established fortresses and settlements, thereby ending an Arab trade monopoly. Later conflicts between the cities of Kozhikode (Calicut) and Kochi (Cochin), however, provided an opportunity for the Dutch oust the Portuguese.
and replace it with the following three paragraphs:
:The dependence of the Chera kings on trade with West Asia meant merchants from these regions were allowed to establish trading outposts and settlements on Kerala's shores. Various Roman, Jewish, Arab and Tamil sources attest to this. Many of them - especially the Jews and early Christians - arrived here to escape religious persecution. The constant contact, settling and patronizing over millennia of these peoples resulted in the Nasrani Mappila and Muslim Mappila communities of the Malabar Coast. Mappila literaly means "grooms" and could point to the fact that West Asian traders took wives from these communities. The matrilineal system would have ensured the children were brought up in their mothers' homes. This resulted in a thriving community on Kerala's shores, their social privileges and status guaranteed by their filial and trade links to West Asian mercantile families.
:Jewish folklore claims atleast two distinct migrations of Jews to Kerala - resulting in the "brown Jews" and later the "white" or "Paradesi Jews". Local folklore and some Eastern Christianity writings claim Thomas the Apostle visited this region in 52 CE to proselytize amongst the brown Jews who were known to live here at that time. The first verifiable migration into Kerala of Christian families is of the arrival of Knai Thoma in 345 CE. Muslim traders are known to have arrived in Kerala by the 8th century CE. Some of India's oldest Churches and Mosques are to be found in Kerala. Pre-European Churches have not survived because they were made of wood though large monolithic granite crosses from that time have.
:With Vasco Da Gama's arrival in (May 20)1498, the Portugese sought to control the lucrative pepper trade by harassing the Mappila communities, attacking West Asian shipping to Kerala's shores and forcing the Nasrani community into obedience to Rome.
Let me know what you'll think.
(Veliath 17:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hai Veliath. After reading I feel that there is no factual changes from the earlier paragraph. Only that it is more elaborate. If that is the case your paragraph can be included in History of Kerala which deals with the history part more elaborately. Or otherwise can you reword it so that the overall length remain more or less the same. regards --Raghu 12:09, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Raghu - Thanks for pointing me to the main history page - I didn't notice it until now!:-) I was appalled by the cursory handling of the possible origins of the two largest minorities in Kerala in the original para. It also has three instances of sentences starting with "Later"! I'll see if I can shrink my three paras back to a single para of the same length as the original. Thanks for responding.(Veliath 13:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, please condense and copyedit it. Saravask 07:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No problem — you were right. We'll put in Raghu's version as soon as the page is unprotected. Thanks. Saravask 17:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rephrase of the Semitic influence paragraph in the History section 

message: just nominated Kerala for Wikipedia:Today's featured article. See Wikipedia_talk:Tomorrow%27s_featured_article#Kerala and copyedit, change the picture, condense, or do whatever else needs to be done. Millions of people will be seeing that blurb, getting their first impressions of Kerala from it. Saravask 00:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's how the blurb reads now:
Will this image look better there??
thumb|200px|left
--Raghu 04:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Hey, that's beautiful. And everyone is free to be WP:BOLD and make reasonable image changes, copyedits, or content changes to the blurb without asking for anyone else's permission or opinions. See WP:OWN for more. Saravask 05:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah thanks.! I have changed it!!--Raghu 05:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia_talk:Tomorrow%27s_featured_article#Kerala]] 

message: It is a great thing that the article kerala has been nominated as feature article. But I think it is still very incomplete, because there is no picture of people from kerala. Think of it, people who have never been to kerala or south India for that matter would wonder as to how the people look like or what is the clothing of the people there. There is not a single picture of a man in mundu / lungi or a woman in south indian saree or malayali golden bordered 
sari. No article about a state can be complete without the pictures of its people or their costumes. It is a very important detail that is missing and is a major drawback. Robin klein 12:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A very good point, we will try to get it soon.--Raghu 12:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Added a Mundu wearing politician. --Raghu 13:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures of people

message: Keralite Muslims (~ 25% of Kerala's population) are neglected and under-represented in this article compared to the other communities. Does anyone have any iconic image(s) of Muslim culture to add here? Mosques? Music? I'd prefer it to be about something not already discussed in the text. Thank you. Saravask 01:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of Muslim culture / mosque