Talk:John Piper (artist)

message: The previous source cannot be used according to the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Two books which are reliable sources say the Shell Guides covered the British Isles, so it does not matter if IRA supporters object to the term. 86.153.108.117 (talk) 13:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My edit summary pointed you to the article on the Shell Guides - where the guides are correctly described as being guidebooks on the counties of Britain.  Piper illustrated two of the older shell guides, both of which were guides to counties of Britain.  I encourage you to read the references within the article, and within the Shell guides article.  Also take a look at Piper's biography (he was involved with two guides - one for Oxfordshire and one for County Durham).  If after that you insist on using the term "British Isles", at least it'll be an opinion based on research and not in implying a motive on my part (WP:AGF anyone?).  --HighKing (talk) 17:02, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't find the text of those references anywhere online and I don't have access to a detailed biography of Piper, especially with reference to his Shell Guides work. There doesn't seemt to be much online. I do note, though, that the Shell Guides included one for Ireland, and looking at the Shell Guides article I see you've removed British Isles from there as well. Also in the Shell Guides article there is some common text with one of the references. A question here is, did the author of the reference copy material from Wikipedia, or vice-versa? If the reference used Wikipedia as a source then it would not be a right to use it as a reference within Wikipedia. LevenBoy (talk) 17:46, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Cancel the last point I was making. I see the small amount of text in the article appears to be taken from the website and not the other way round. LevenBoy (talk) 17:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: At least look at the External Links - there's a website dedicated to Piper that includes his biography.  Same with the Shell Guides article - there's lots of references you can look up from the articles that are available online.  As to your point on who copied who, which reference are you referring to?  It's better if you form your opinion this way.  Also, the shell guide to Ireland that you refer to was not part of the series that Piper was involved with.  This is discussed on the Talk page of the Shell Guides article.   --HighKing (talk) 18:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

text: No response after a couple of days....I'll wait a little longer before making the assumption that you agree with the points I've raised above.  --HighKing (talk) 18:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, occupied with other things. It seems from what I've read that there was no series of guides which was referred to by the publishers as being of "the British Isles" (I may be wrong though). However, there was definitely a Shell Guide to Ireland. Maybe the answer here is to use this wording: "including the poet John Betjeman (on the Shell Guides)". The Shell Guides are linked anyway, so there's no real need in this article to explain the area covered by the guides. Does this help? LevenBoy (talk) 20:03, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me - pointing to the article on the Shell Guides allows readers to follow up should they so wish.  Also, yes indeed there was a guide to Ireland, but it was not part of the "early" series (referred to as the "Shell Guides" that Piper was involved with, but a later series (referred to as the "Shilling Guides" that also included guides to parts of Europe too.  Betjeman went as far as consulting the Society of Authors as to whether they could be viewed as an infringement of copyright in relation to the 'Shell Guide' name.  I intend to split the current article into two sometime in the near future to make this clearer... --HighKing (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been a week and no further comments.  I'll make the changes as agreed here.  Thanks.  --HighKing (talk) 00:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: British Isles