Talk:Justin Berry/Archive 4

message: I'm starting to think that this article should be reorganized along chronological lines, which seems to be the house style when it comes to biographies.  Thoughts, feelings, opinions? Perhaps a straw poll? --Ssbohio 01:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed reorganization 

message: Am I mistaken, or does the information on Timothy Ryan Richards just come out of left field?  Other that noting that some of the charges relate to Berry, there's no context at all given for who he is or why he's even relevant to this article. Esrever 02:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you about that.  The section on Timothy Richards isn't well tied-in to the overall narrative.  I have primary sources that give a chronology of their business dealings, and I'm looking for secondary sources to support them.  It's my hope hat if the article is reorganized chronologically, some of the confusion would be eliminated.  According to my sources, Richards (a/k/a Casey) was approached by Aaron Brown, owner of neova.net, a credit card processor specializing in adult websites.  Richards & Brown were long-time friends, and had performed on the same webcam sites before moving on to other opportunities.  Brown asked Richards to administer Berry's latest site, JustinsFriends.net, as Berry had walked away leaving paid subscribers in the lurch.  By his own account, Richards believe the site to be legal in every aspect, as it bore the correct legal compliance language.  Richards administered the site, while, Brown, Berry, & Greg Mitchel still had access to it.  Separately, Richards operated CaseyAndDew.tv, a non-pornographic webcam site that did depict a fully-clothed minor as he grew up as a gay teen.  Once I get the sourcing straightened out, I'll be incorporating some of this information into the article.  I'm also considering forking off the information on others involved in Berry's enterprises, to reduce the length & complexity of the article.  --Ssbohio 20:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this info should be split out. This article isn't about Richards. I think the long indictment of a third party should be summarized in a few lines. -Will Beback · † · 05:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My concern is that these men are not, as a general rule, notable aside from their role in Berry's (criminal?) enterprises.  While Richards may, indeed, have a claim not entirely based on the Berry affair, he seems to be the only one.  I think this would be an example of an allowable spinoff based on forking policy.  However, I've never done one of those before, and considering the tendentious nature of this article's history, I'd want to get it right the first time around.  --Ssbohio 06:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll do it. Let's remember this article is about the person, not the incident. -Will Beback · † · 06:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Will.  Is the removed content being forked into a separate article?  I ask so that I don't duplicate your efforts.  Also, with the possible exceptions of Kurt Eichenwald, Tim Richards, & (possibly) Gilo Tunno, none of the others in this story, Berry included, seem to be notable outside of its context.  --Ssbohio 01:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prosecution of Richards 

message: This article appears to me to go into too much detail about the Gourlay trial. We have day-by-day accounts of the preliminary hearings, discussions of individual motions and delays, descriptions of Gourlay's demeanor, and other details that are not reasonable parts of an encyclopedia biography of Berry. The trial only lasted four days, and it isn't even the topic of this article. We might extract a few details that are important and relevant to the subject, but I think we can cut the thousand words down to a hundred. -Will Beback · † · 09:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed on this.  Also, the Gourlay account relies too heavily on quotes from Gourlay's defense attorney.  Joie de Vivre 16:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section on Gourlay is overly detailed.  However, when removing content, remember that Gourlay also has a version of the story to tell.  Since he is "indisposed," it is up to his defense team to tell his story.  It's important that Berry's version not be the only account of their relationship that is included here.  --Ssbohio 19:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gourlay trial 

message: I believe this article needs a SERIOUS re-organization as it appears to be a jumble of words together on a page. I'm sure this isn't intentional but am wondering if people here would take issue if I attempted to re-write it, with both a chronological perspective and a "differing points of view" perspective.  Berry's testimony would still take precedence, but I also will not ignore that citeable sources, refuting his story, are out there and provide links to them in the article.  I have also started a Timothy Ryan Richards article.  Suggestions, questions, comments? --Julien Deveraux 20:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (Refactored above to start new section) A short time ago, I started a workspace for rewriting & reorganizing the article.  The text there is not suitable for direct inclusion in the article, as it was cut and pasted from a previous version, and there have been significant changes (mainly removals) since then.  The previous stable version (which definitely needed work) was about 30% larger than the article is now.  My feeling is that the pendulum has swung pretty far in the direction of removal of content, but it remains to be seen where consensus lies. --Ssbohio 08:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite