Talk:Semi-arid climate

message: I have elected to identify Midland, USA as Midland, Texas because there are other significant communities named Midland in the United States. Midland, Michigan, which is about half the size of Midland, Texas, definitely does not have a steppe climate. --Pbrower2a (talk) 09:36, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: Calgary and Edmonton receive relatively low precipitation, but the threshold alone does not result in a BSk classification. They are Koeppen Dfb- not enought Evapotranspiration for BSk. In their place, I've added Penticton so that Canada has a representative location for this classification. Koppenlady (talk) 20:07, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, Koppenlady. I've read this and am now curious. What exactly is the formula that determines whether a place is semi-arid or humid continental? How did you reach this conclusion? I only ask because this info should be included in the article itself.G. Capo (talk) 21:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

text: I just plugged in the numbers for both Calgary and Edmonton and you (and the map) are absolutely correct! They're both continental, even though the two cities receive under 500 mm of precip! I don't believe it's overkill for a WP article. If people have some skill in math, they can figure this out. I think we should at least add the formula and get rid of the current precip. thresholds in both the arid climate and semiarid climate pages so that there's no future debate on this issue. Thanks for your work! G. Capo (talk) 22:38, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evapotranspiration thresholds required for BSk 

message: Can anyone tell me how to delineate between BSk and BSh? From what I've seen, it does not seem to be the same -3° C/0° C isotherm used to draw the border between humid continental and humid subtropical climates. 1brettsnyder (talk) 15:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It’s supposed to be 0° C (or at least relatively close to 0° C). However, when I attempted to take, for example, Zaragoza out of the BSk category, someone constantly kept putting it back into the cold climate category, even though Zaragoza clearly does not fit there. Even after I explained the reasoning behind the move, they kept putting it back in there. You have my support if you want to fix this. I’m only interested in getting this right G. Capo (talk) 21:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Alright thank you for clearing that up. I do want to fix this. I have taken Zaragoza from the list, and will place Tehran on the BSh list. I will also remove Tashkent, because its climate is not semi-arid, as well as Konya and Comodoro Rivadavia, as I can find no climate data on these cities' pages. 1brettsnyder (talk) 00:31, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Determining between BSk or BSh

message: Someone keeps on taking of Ellinikon,Athens from the BSh climates list.I have added the source of the Greek meteorological service which clearly states that Ellinikon in Athens has a BSh climate. This is the official response of the Greek authorities.I am adding Ellinikon back to the list..could you please make sure that this is not deleted again by someone who keeps on erasing it??  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 21:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I’m glad you’re willing to discuss this. There are a number of issues with Ellinikon. First, this is a suburb of a city, not necessarily a city in itself. It’s a suburb of Athens. Just about all of the other examples listed under the Koppen climate classification pages list cities, not suburbs of cities. Second, this page is going by Koppen’s definition of a semi-arid climate, not the Greek government’s definition. There may be a difference between the two. Third, the Ellinikon page’s weather data currently does not have source, or a climate chart. Even if it was there, going by the numbers on the page, knowing that nearby Athens has wet winters and dry summers, Ellinikon straddles a zone between a Mediterranean climate and a semi-arid climate. It would be only 6 mm of precipitation short of the transition point. If this was a relatively rare type of climate (e.g. a tropical monsoon climate) a climate like Ellinikon would be on this list. However there are a number of cities that has a semi-arid climate.  I hope this is helpful G. Capo (talk) 17:33, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

text: In that case, neither am I willing to discuss anything. It's a suburb, not a city. The title in question is "notable CITIES". If we listed all the small suburbs of the world that had different climates from their mother cities we'd have like 10,000 entries. Try finding a Greek CITY that has this climate and I'll call it a day. G. Capo (talk) 03:52, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Alright, first, you haven't once before said that the Greek state doesn't have its own system, and your original post on this talk page very much made it look like the Greek state did have a different system from Koeppen. Second; from all that I have heard, read and seen, the most common dividing line between BSk and BSh is no longer an 18° C mean annual temperature, but 0° C mean temperature in the coldest month, in line with the delineation between humid continental and humid subtropical climates. Thessaloniki is appropriately placed on the BSh list, and, from what searching and reading I have done, Athens (not the relative obscurity that is Ellinikon) is also appropriately placed on the list with the caveat that it is a borderline climate between semi-arid and mediterranean. Lastly, I strongly suggest that you objectively look at your obsession with adding Greek cities to these lists. You seem to be doing this without regard for their appropriateness or notability. Greece is not the world. This is intended not as an insult, but as an invitation to discuss this further. Let's refrain from editing from now and talk this over. Be informed that I  apply a tit for tat strategy, so if you are willing to discuss this, I will happily oblige, but if you tell me that you are not willing to discuss this, as you told G.Capo, I will only reply in kind. 1brettsnyder (talk) 23:48, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

text: OK; I think we're good. The 0° C dividing line is not dominant just in the USA, it also seems to be preferred here in Canada as well. But North America is not the world, and most publications I have looked at were Canadian or American. I have looked at sources outside of North America, and it does appear that you are right, the mean annual temperature is used very widely outside of North America. I did not realise the extent of its use. So instead of arguing over which of the two widely used dividing lines to use, how about we mention in the article that there are two lines, so that in some publications and documents, a given city (like Thessaloniki) may be classified as BSh, while in others, it may be classified as BSk. 1brettsnyder (talk) 01:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Been busy for a while. The cities I've taken out of the list, I took out because they have another climate classification that borders on a semi-arid climate. They don't necessarily have a semi-arid climate. While Athens should technically not be on this list as it officially has a Mediterranean climate bordering on a semiarid climate, seeing that Weatherextremes is a good guy (at least on the internet:), I'll leave it on. No hard feelings here as well.G. Capo (talk) 03:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking back at this now I would like to apologise to Weatherextremes, as some of my comments to this user were ad hominem, which I would consider to be out of line.1brettsnyder (talk) 01:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek Cities 

message: I think it would be a good idea if all the cities with "borderline" climates were removed from the lists and replaced with locations that are more definitively semi-arid, well below the borderline,  with precipitation at most 90-95% of the precipitation threshold. I'm fine with Athens being exempt from this, in keeping with our previous compromise with Weatherextremes, but if he is cool with Athens being taken off the list like other borderline cities, that would be good. 1brettsnyder (talk) 00:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Borderline climates

message: All are added back.Someone keeps on erasing them.Why is this?The cities have semi-arid climate according to Peel at al and HNMS REGARDING THE KOPPEN CLASSIFICATION.
References here .Crystal clear BSk/BSh climates according to Koppen Classification
http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Larisa&dr_region=ClimThessaly
http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Thessaloniki_Mikra&dr_region=ClimMacedonia_Central
http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Kavala_Chryssoupoli  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 03:44, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Larisa,Kavala,Thessaloniki

message: goes in the varying classification since it has a lower than 18C mean annual according to AEMET 
http://www.aemet.es/es/elclima/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=7228&k=mur
http://www.aemet.es/es/elclima/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=7031&k=mur  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 16:04, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Murcia

message: The reference has been provided both here and in the main article.Both according to Greece's HNMS and Peel et al Thessaloniki has a semi-arid climate.Please do not remove it again.You are invited to discuss an alternative relevant reference if you have it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 08:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Thessaloniki's constant deletion

message: By request, I have swept in and wikified the article.  In this article's case, that meant eliminating the city lists (which were not referenced anyway) and the gallery-like chart section at the end of the article.  No charts were saved in this article's case as there was already enough imagery within the article, and no room for more along the margins without compromising its format.  This brings the article into tolerance with wikipedia standards, and sets it up for improvement to GA, someday, once all the content has inline references.  Although in this article's case, there wasn't much encyclopedaic content to start with. Thegreatdr (talk) 14:32, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Without some form of list of cities at the edge of Koppen regions, I find the included maps as they are now don't allow for pinpointing the borders of the arid regions.  With no country, state, or city shown on the maps I can't tell where the borders start and end.  For instance, looking at the map, is Denver, Colorado considered BSh or BSk--I can't tell by the map if it's either or none.  User:Nodove (talk) 16:50 December 2013 (UTC)
Denver International Airport has a sub-freezing average for January, so if considered arid (which it is marginally) it neatly fits the criteria for BSk. The non-arid analogue for Denver, which has hot summers, would be Dfa -- which is likely found in places just wet enough to avoid the semi-arid classification. 
Illustrative examples of at least one incontrovertible example of a BSh climate by both the 0°C cold-month isotherm and the 18°C average annual temperature, a BSk climate by both criteria, and a climate that has a cold-moth isotherm above 0°C or an average annual temperature under 18°C. For large cities in or near the United States I would pick Albuquerque for the first, Denver for the second, and San Diego (Tijuana would also do very well) for the third -- with the qualification that those cities are in mountainous areas in which there are non-arid microclimates. Of course one might have alternatives elsewhere, as in the Sahel for an unambiguous BSh climate, some place in or near central Asia for the BSk climate, and somewhere on the coast of Morocco for a climate ambiguous as BSh or BSk. Maybe there could be one for a place south of the equator.Pbrower2a (talk) 03:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  City lists and gallery-like section gone, per the Manual of Style 

message: *Murcia, Almería and Alicante don't have a cold semi-arid climate (BSk), but a hot semi-arid climate with Mediterranean influence (BSh ~ Csa).
*BS does not occur in coastal areas: from Catalonia to right down to the Montgó Massif, in the Marina Alta (Valencia). Most of the Spanish Mediterranean coast has a proper hot summer Mediterranean climate Csa (excepting from Central Alicante to Almería, Cabo de Gata, and fewer areas in Castellón and Tarragona where BSh with Csa features can be found).
*BSk ONLY occurs in inland areas adjacents to BSh (e.g. Albacete, inland Valencia: Morella, Central and Southern Aragon: Teruel -excepting the Ebro Valley). Obviously, these inland areas are at a higher elevation, and there is much less influence from the Mediterranean sea.
*Outside continental Spain, BSh can be found in the Eastern Canary Islands (Lanzarote and Fuerteventura).
===Murcia (varying classification: BSh ~ Csa)===
===Albacete (varying classification: BSk ~ Csa)===
===Teruel (varying classification: BSk ~ Csa)===
350px
The map is derived from the Köppen climate map, which was created by climate scientists. It may not be 100% precise, but it's enough to illustrate the article.--216.110.99.210 (talk) 08:32, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: The map is wrong

message: 350px
The map is derived from the Köppen climate map, which was created by climate scientists. It may not be 100% precise, but it's enough to illustrate the article.--216.110.99.210 (talk) 08:32, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Teruel (varying classification: ''BSk'' ~ ''Csa'')

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The first sentence of this article states that "A semi-arid climate or steppe climate is the climate of a region that receives precipitation below potential evapotranspiration, but not extremely."
I think this should say "...below an estimate of potential evapotranspiration", because the way the potential evapotranspiration is calculated differs between the source of the overall classification map and the Bureau of Meteorology. I noticed this because I compared the precipitation data and the evapotranspiration maps on the Bureau of Meteorology's webite and found that from this data, Townsville would be classified as semi-arid and not tropical savanna.
The above is assuming that Köppen climate classifications are defined based on their methods of estimation, and not the best available method of estimating potential evapotranspiration. I have not been able to find original definitions of the Köppen climate classification. Jazzabeanie (talk) 03:51, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential Evapotranspiration 

message: Apparently someone wrote 'butts pooplandia' under the "Regions of Varying Classification" section. Whatever that means.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Velteau (talk • contribs) 05:25, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regions of Varying Classification: Vandalism 

message: Why is my palm cactus cutting surviving its second summer in Minnesota? PintacYeowww (talk) 19:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: This is offtopic for a Wikipedia talk page, @PintacYeowww. Talk pages are about discussing the article, not its subject. That said, cacti and other succulents do have varying precipitation and humidity tolerances depending on their soil condition and it's possible that "palm cactus" does well with Minnesota weather. I hope it has kept doing well! Ellenor2000 (talk) 07:25, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is my palm cactus cutting surviving its second summer in Minnesota? 

message: Europe (Central parts of Spain and Turkey, Crimea, Greece and North Macedonia)
Is it Georaphically wise to call Central Turkey as part of Europe? Just wondering PAper GOL (talk) 05:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I don't know if it's wise - climatically it makes sense - but it's usually not included and therefore should likely not be included here. Uness232 (talk) 07:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather not change it for now. But later I may remove it because the map does not show any part of the european Turkey to be Semi-arid. PAper GOL (talk) 08:35, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Central Turkey 

message: In Australia, a large portion of the Outback surrounding the central desert regions lies within the hot semi-arid climate region.[clarification needed] 
What exactly needs Clarification in this sentence? PAper GOL (talk) 04:00, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification