Template talk:Infobox language/Archive 2

message: It has come to my attention that SIL's classification is not always accepted by some native linguists of some languages. Could it at least be mentioned that the classification is not "definitive" but SIL's or from any other resources?---moyogo 04:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source of Genetic classification 

message: I felt I had to flag up a major edit to the template. I have re-added two proposed sections: 'ISO/DIS 639-3' and 'Pronunciation'. I am not sure if the latter will work, but its worth adding if the main objection has been overcome. My attention was drawn to a new possibility with templates: we can now define a default for a parameter. The syntax is default. This allows us to add a new parameter and then define it in each article. In the past, we have had to work the other way round. Thus, the  parameter now has the default text: not in the top 100. This text has been added by hand into most articles, but does not need to be any more. I hope this is a step in the right direction. --Gareth Hughes 14:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on your edit at Arabic language I've been adding the native pronunciations of languages in the "pronunciation" field (e.g.  at Irish language,  at Welsh language,  at Scottish Gaelic language,  at English language,  at German language, and  at French language. I hope this is what this field is intended to convey; if not, let me know and I'll change them to , and . --Angr/ 01:20, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. I've removed the  section because I don't really think it's necessary. First off, some people might have that for the "native name" section. Also, what's the point? --Hottentot
I agree that it may not be needed. However, I have seen a few places where it has been asked how the name of a language should be pronounced.  should be the languages own name for itself, in native script if possible. I see that parameter as being very different from <. It is significant that Hertevin language, Tigrigna language and many others are not pronounced as they are written. This is valid and useful information. I think that we should think of some way to provide IPA help to Wikipedia users. --Gareth Hughes 16:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I still think it takes up too much space. Should we have some sort of vote? --Hottentot
I've been talking to my template guru (SEWilco) who has been showing me some of the hidden mysteries of templates. I used  to include a link to a language's Ethnologue entry if an ISO 639-3 is defined. You'll see that Arabic language has a link, whereas Afrikaans doesn't (it hasn't been added yet). Now that I've discovered how to do that, I'm going to have a look at the modularity proposal again. This will make the majority of instances of the template much shorter (i.e. the 'official' bits will be automagically removed when not needed). Can we leave the 'pronunciation' issue dormant for a moment, until the template's full flexibility has been tested? --Gareth Hughes 20:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

text: can ISO 639-3 talk be kept in the ISO 639 section? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defining default parameter strings and my major edit 

message: I've just made the template collapsable. If  is left undefined in an article, the 'Ranking', 'Official language of' and 'Regulated by' rows will automatically disappear. Therefore, if a particular language doesn't use these parameters, just leave them out, and the template will automatically simplify itself (see Koy Sanjaq Surat for a collapsed version). I've tested this in a few places, and it seems to be working fine. You can see ,  and  as the sub-templates that are now called, or not, by the main template. I'm not sure if I can explain how it works: I hardly understand it myself. I hope the newly collapsable version doesn't caus any problems, and meets with general approval. --Gareth Hughes 23:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed on Abkhaz language, that there's this extra space right above the Not in top 100 section. I was wondering if there's any way to remove it. Thanks. --Hottentot
I see that you and Tobias have had a look at the new template design. I should try to write down how it works, because it is complex. The extra space has probably been called by . I shall have a look at it, to see what might cause the problem. As you have probably noticed, the  parameter can only be a single code entry or nothing at the moment (don't try iso3=, as that will create a link to Ethnologue). The next stage is allow a list of ISO 639-3 codes. Until we have found an easy way to do that, it is best not to implement the linking feature to the  parameter, as most article already define it. If you feel that any occurrence of the template could do without the 'official' section, just remove the  parameter, and the template will remove the entire section. --Gareth Hughes 13:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I highly appreciate the work you're doing, Gareth! I have a question. I don't think we should tie the 'Ranking' thing to the national or official status of a language. There are languages which have enough speakers to enter into some ranking and yet are not official languages (the Northern Berber languages of Morocco would be an example, I suppose). On the other hand, there are also languages that do not have that many speakers but still are the national or official language of one or another country; Temne language, for example. Why not make the 'ranking' parameter fully optional? — mark ✎ 14:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collapsable template 

message: Some languages which lack ISO 639-2 codes of their own have instead a general code like aus (Australian languages) or afa (other Afro-asiatic), following Ethnologue 14. But is this appropriate? --Ptcamn 18:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Collective language codes

message: The latest addition is what I call the 'family array'. It is an easier way to enter information into he 'Genetic classification' box. The traditional method of entering text into the  parameter still works. Therfore, if there is anything that doesn't fit the new system, you can still use the old one. The problem with this old system was that you had to type the formatting ( ) into the parameter on the article page. I've now added that formatting into the template, so that you do not need to add on the article page. In the new system, the  parameter is not used. Instead, you add the following to the template call in the article:
 |fam1=top level language family
 |fam2=next level down
 |fam3=next level down again
I've set up the template to accept parameters up to and including . More levels can be added if needed. In this system, the last |famn= is the most immeadiate language group to which a langauge belongs: you do not write the name of the language itself in these parameters, that is added automatically. If you want any of the parameters to link to an article about a language family, you simply type:
 |fam8=language family
I'm working on using a similar system to allow us to incorporate lists of language codes. --Gareth Hughes 12:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: can the leading space(line) be removed? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family array 

message: Can dialects be included to use the template? Some also have 639-3 code because in ethnologue they are regarded as language. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just shelved  and replaced with an array of parameters that allow you to enter a list of languages/dialects with their ISO 639-3 codes. If you want to use more than one ISO 639-3 code, leave out  (which is used for entering a single code), and use the format below:
 |lc1=aaa|ld1=Ghotuo|ll1=Ghotuo language
 |lc2=bbb|ld2=Barai|ll2=Barai language
 |lc3=ccc|ld3=Chamicuro|ll3=Chamicuro language
 |lc4=ddd|ld4=Dongotono|ll4=Dongotono language
 |lc5=eee|ld5=E|ll5=E (linguistics)
 |lc6=ggg|ld6=Gurgula|ll6=Gurgula language
In this format, lc stands for 'language code' (the ISO 639-3 of that language/dialect), ld stands for 'language dialect' (the name of the language/dialect to appear in the infobox) and ll stands for 'language link' (Wikipedia's link to an artcle on the language/dialect). The lc will automatically link to the Ethnologue page. The ll parameter does not have to be defined if the link is the same as the contents of ld. Each language/dialect is automatically linked, on the basis that we want an article about each of them. However, I'm not sure if this is wise, and I'll put in a workaround for unlinked languages/dialects if needed. I hope you like it! --Gareth Hughes 14:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I would ditch the SIL14 codes altogether. It is not Wikipedia's job to provide a mapping from SIL14 onto SIL15/ISO3. Besides, Ethnologue itself does it already and in doing so quite explicitly notes that the old coding system has been superseded (see ) — mark ✎ 17:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

text: To complicate matters: I have seen quite a few articles where the SIL14 code in the template has been updated to the SIL15/iso3 code. What to do with these? — mark ✎ 17:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Thanks, Tobias! We could ditch SIL14 codes right away: I don't think anyone would miss them, and it would be an encouragement to get the ISO 639-3 codes in the infobox. I originally had just a space between the code and the name of the dialect in the code list, and I added the m-dash to spread it all out a little more. I agree that with a very long name the line could get too long. I really just wanted to avoid squashing the name up against the external link symbol. On the last point, I think the Chinese language infobox is a case in point. The WP precedence is that we do not make sharp distinctions between language and dialect, or between different level of (sub-)families and (sub-)groups. Where there are multiple ISO 639-3 codes, a language may have several dialects, which may be considered languages in their own right. --Gareth Hughes 12:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dialects

message: I've added in some more flexibility to the template today, so here's the 'heads-up'. As mentioned above, the template is now suitable for sign languages. You use  instead of , and the template automatically sets itself up for a signed language. It also sets the coloured bar to silver.
You might not be into constructed languages, but the template can be used for them also. Two new parameters are used for conlangs:  and . The former replaces , and is used for naming the creator and date of creation of the conlang (it also automatically makes the coloured bar black with white text). The other new parameter replaces . It is purposefully vague, and can contain geographical inforamtion, original intention for creating the language or its use in literature.
The new parameter  can be used instead of  to replace that field in the infobox with information about language extinction. This would usually be the approximate year of extinction, but could contain other information. This allows the template to be used appropriately for long-extinct languages.
I hope you like these new possibilities. I've included information on all parameters at the top of this page. You can see an example of each of these new types of template in the following three articles: Auslan, Esperanto and Akkadian language. --Gareth Hughes 22:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sign languages, conlangs and extinct languages 

message: It seems that the infobox for all the Unclassified languages (that use the color #dddddd) got all messed up. What happened? See example here. --Hottentot 01:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed the colour coding for isolate to lightgrey. For some reason the template has difficulty coping with #, and I didn't think of testing it with isolates. I'll have a look at the template, and see if I can see what was causing the glitch. Otherwise, I think this is a reasonable replacement. --Gareth Hughes 01:34, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. lightgrey and silver almost identical. Is there a better color we can use? --Hottentot 01:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You could use gray (that's quite distinct), or look at web colors. The # does something very odd to the syntax: something that I didn't expect. --Gareth Hughes 02:22, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I looked at web colors. It turns out that gainsboro is apparently identical (or very, very close) to #dddddd, so I'm going to switch to that from lightgrey. --Hottentot 03:14, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The # sign at the beginning of the parameter definition is treated as the wiki mark-up for an item in an ordered list. The simplest workaround is to use ... tags around the hexidecimal code. However, using colour names rather codes might be the easiest all-round solution. --Gareth Hughes 21:58, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened to #dddddd?? 

message: The  has a section for a seal or symbol of a language that we've been using and the new template doesn't have that which made the Ido page look a bit worse, and I reverted it. I would try putting it in myself but this big template scares me and I don't want to mess around with it. Mithridates 03:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I remember Mark wanting an option for placing a language map at the top of the infobox. I'll put in a sub-template that can add this in. I'll keep it flexible, so it can be used for various purposes. --Gareth Hughes 11:23, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

text: OK. I've just updated Ido with the new sub-template. If you want to look at the innards, they're at , and are called into play by  in the main template. The practical side of things are the parameters:  places text in the left-hand column (e.g. 'Seal' or 'Language map'), and  defines the image using normal image mark-up (the template doesn't do anything fancy for you). These two parameters could be used to add anything as a new top line to the template, so it's very flexible. --Gareth Hughes 11:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, long time ago, I had a map incorporated into the infobox at Nafaanra language, but I separated it at the first redesign of the language template (check out Laal language for another example). Mustafaa, I believe, has kept using the old template, with incorporated map, on some articles. And indeed, the best use for such a feature, if it is introduced now, would be for maps. I would prefer the bottom of the infobox for that, however. — mark ✎ 12:00, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I just tested this at  (see this revision) but I don't think it's going to work; the place is too small for a map. It would be better if the map were at the bottom, if it could span the two columns and if it could have a caption like normal thumb'ed images have. But even then, I'm not sure; sometimes maps need to be broader, or sometimes they're ridiculously long (what about this one?). Maybe we should just keep it distinct from the template. — mark ✎ 12:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

text: There will always have to be some limits of size so that the infobox doesn't get overburdened. I've implemented , which does exactly what you asked for. You can see an example at . By the way, are you going to subst this into the article now? --Gareth Hughes 12:56, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could we get a seal added? 

message: It looks like every article that has uses a space in-between the template code and the 1st paragraph gives the article an extra white space at the top of it, such as in Adyghe. Is there any way to get rid of it? --67.160.197.22 20:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not a problem with the template. The problem is with the way the template was implemented in that article. I've corrected and updated the page. --Gareth Hughes 21:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But then that means that you have to have the template code and the 1st paragraph right next to eachother without a space between them. that's not how it used to be. --67.160.197.22 22:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  space 

message: SEWilco used "array" technique in Flag template(s). Something about template array is written at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Flag_Template#country_shortname_alias_xxx maybe he knows more. I think we need two templates for each group, one that is called by color the other by groupname. But both containing a color. I think we cannot do 
 if param1=darkgreen then darkgreen
 elsif param1=germanic then darkgreen
 elsif param1=lightgreen then lightgreen
 elsif param1=roman then lightgreen
Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you mean. I set up a similar array a while back for . The array is in place now, but I haven't switched it on yet. The old problem of #dddddd has come back. Now we have to remove the nowikis, or, better still, replace it with Isolate. I'll switch it on, and they'll all go white until fixed by hand. The table shows how the array works. --Gareth Hughes 23:27, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The arrays are now in the main template, and all seem to be functioning properly. The only glitch is the expected problem of language isolates appearing white. You can now set  to any of the names in this table, rather than to a colour. --Gareth Hughes 00:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: cool! This really helps (at least me, if I add the template to new languages). can we insert the color-overview somewhere more easily to reach? The Language family article starts prominently with a map but the legend is unreadable. Can we use the color templates in the lang-article? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 10:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I've compacted the array into a single template: . Any changes there take effect across the project. You can call the array from outside of . If you want to call the colour for a Papuan language, the syntax is , which returns . I chose the long syntax because it means we can use the very handy  to set up other arrays. I hope this is sufficient information about how this works. Ask if I haven't explained any of it right. --Gareth Hughes 16:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Familycolor 

message: Honduras Sign Language - I only filled in few variables. e.g. no speakers. The tmp is broken right now.  Tobias Conradi (Talk) 10:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The sign-language version of the infobox relies on , and if that's defined, you don't have to set . The problem is that the footer notice for sign languages is currently residing at . I'm just going to move this now to stop this glitch happening: I just didn't think anyone would find it overnight! --Gareth Hughes 11:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  broken 

message: This template has really improved in the past few days, but I was wondering what we should do about the color of Unclassified languages. Unclassified language articles using an infobox are Jalaa, Laal, Ongota, and Shabo. Jalaa & Laal formerly used #dddddd, which is incorrect because #dddddd is for Language isolates. My suggestion is that we use the color white. What does everyone else think?
Another issue is about the Chukotko-Kamchatkan languages. All those articles currently use #dddddd, but none of the languages are isolates. We need to find a different color for those languages. --Hottentot 22:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Using white for unclassified languages is OK, I think. — mark ✎ 08:04, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: White is the default colour. If the value of  is anything not listed in the array, it should come out white. Local settings might override this, so it can be forced by either not defining  at all, or by setting it to 'Default' (which does the same thing). I've expanded the list in  a little, to allow for various spelling variations (e.g. 'Na-Dene' and 'Na-Dené' can both be used). I think it's good to remember that the colour coding we are using is often more stylistic than scientific. Some colours represent fairly well established genetic language families, albeit with ragged edges. Other colours simply represent areal classification, where no genetic relationship can be proved. Still others represent languages by type (sign and constructed languages). The #dddddd category has often been used as a catch-all. Should we place a language in that category if there is a reasonable hypothesis that it is not an isolate (Japanese and Korean)? Are isolates unclassified languages, or have they been classified as classless? The latter is the scientific approach, but, in practice, many language isolates are still open cases. There was the initial idea not to use too many colours. Thus, a huge, diverse language family uses the same colour throughout. I think we should be very careful about introducing new colours into the scheme. However, this does raise the question of what we do with very small language families, like the Chukotko-Kamchatkan languages. In other cases, a non-genetic classification is used (e.g. the light blue of American languages), so we could cautiously introduce a colour for Palaeo-Siberian languages. Further problems arise when we try to choose a colour for a pidgin or creole language. Well, there are lots of issues. It might be better to take these over to WikiProject Languages. --Gareth Hughes 11:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: yes. colors to the project. Maybe a subpage there, so I can only watchlist the colorpage. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other issues 

message: Have made some boolean templates that you can use if you feel to (might render the code easier), see :Category: If Templates for syntax --AzaToth talk 12:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for letting us know about these. Although in some places they might reduce he syntax, in others they would increase it, as these return a generic true/false response, whereas the if-routines in the template are prepared to return specific responses. --Gareth Hughes 13:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I particularly like the way that  works: very clever! I can see a couple of uses for this and . This is timely, as I was just about to rewrite the {tl|language/official}} call routine (I had made quite a mess of it, and much of it is redundant), the boolor routine would fit beautifully into the new call routine. --Gareth Hughes 13:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I made them to simplify creation of logical templates, I understand that it can be hard to rewrite a big template like this, but they are ment to be in aid of the creator (It might reduce the esoteric look on the template). the  isn't exactly a boolean operator, but it returns a boolean so I call it a boolean operator :). I came up with the idea, when I thought "can I retrive a parameter based of the value of another parameter", and it did work. --AzaToth talk 13:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boolean Templates 

message: By using switch in some sub templates, you'll remove a lot of ifs, and the code seems more nice. Also, this is only 1 sub-template-call :) –AzaToth talk 17:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: seems to be having some difficulty with the day of the week on its talk page. I do like the design, but I'm not yet convinced how well it handles. --Gareth Hughes 14:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *It's not a problem of , it me that missunderstood how  work, I thought sunday was number 7, but it's number 0; →AzaToth 14:55, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see. Well, I think we should trial switch with these arrays. I'll start implementing it. --Gareth Hughes 18:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using Switch 

message: The centre alignment of the text in the IPA note at the bottom is a bit distracting, too.  In my browser, the first line fills the width of the table, and the second line consists of just the word "Unicode" centred by itself.  I see no reason for this not to remain in Wikipedia's default left-margin text alignment.  Any objections to changing this?  —Michael Z. 2005-11-26 19:16 Z
:As I've been viewing the footer full screen it has seemed fine, but, taking your point, I'll switch it to left alignment. --Gareth Hughes 21:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA note text alignment 

message: Every so often I think that we've arrived at the updated template we are looking for, and then the new ideas start to come in. Some of the latest additions are:
#You now only need to use one geographical field in the template:  or . You can still use both, but, if only one is used, it defaults to the 'Spoken/Signed in:' left-hand column.
# is now handling the arrays. Boolean templates are handling most of the options now. Some of the template calls have been rationalised. The routine for making lists of multiple ISO 639-3 codes is now at , which neatens the syntax in the main template.
#As no one objected, I've added two new colours:  for , and  for a  or a . Don't use the colour names in : they haven't been included in the arrays.
I hope that's all useful to you. --Gareth Hughes 21:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, thanks about #3! --Hottentot 00:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I have thought about taking away . No article actually uses that parameter usefully. I think it is only necessary on the black background of conlang infoboxes, and then it is handled automatically. I've spoken with Mark about deriving  from . The problem is that these parameters can be set to all sorts of different values (almost all are formatted as internal links too), and would be difficult to draw up an array to cover all the possible values and variations. I feel (even though it may seem backward logic) that  should be kept fexible so that we can enter the most appropriate text and links, and that we continue to use  to define the presentation colour of the infobox, as it is a more well-defined field. Doing things the other way round does work, though. If you leave out , it is automatically supplied by  from the array . I know this is all a bit backwards, but it makes the template much easier to write. --Gareth Hughes 18:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Latest updates

message: Hi. I just noticed that appears to be a Template:Dialect, created by  sometime in August. I didn't know that such a template existed, but the problem is that the template doesn't look so good -- its defalt color is grey, and doesn't look as nice as this template. What do you think we should do with it? Should we use it or delete it? Any thoughts? It is currently used on four articles: Michif language, Newfoundland Irish, Bungee language, and Scottish Gaelic in Canada --Hottentot 03:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you've caught me at a time when I feel ready to go on the rampage against the use of the word dialect. The word is totally subjective. Now that  has greater flexibility, I think that  should be put up for deletion, and all instances of it in articles replaced with . --Gareth Hughes 15:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *Agree, We have here the "template that's fits them all" →AzaToth 15:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've converted all articles that used  to , and have nominated it for deletion on TFD. --Gareth Hughes 16:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

text: 100% agree Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template:Dialect]] 

message: Everyone needs to give this page a read. It describes the negative system impact of "templates within templates".  I'll be back later to talk about how we're going to eliminate them fromt his template, as soon as I do some experiments. -- Netoholic @ 18:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:AUM seems to be in open discussion of this right now, and extended template syntax seems to be the correct answer. I'm unsure how the server load of this template is measured, but pages that include the template appear to load no less quickly than those without it. --Gareth Hughes 22:42, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  extended template syntax is a proposed (i.e. hypothetical) extension to the way Templates are handled by the software.  What is being used here in this template is NOT "extended template syntax", as described on that page.  Some "clever" folks have found an ugly way to "fake out" the software.  As far as page load times, please don't assume these have no cost. WP:AUM is currently being assaulted by these "clever" folks, but it has been endorsed in the past by both the ArbCom and the MediaWiki developers. -- Netoholic @ 22:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates]] 

message: I propose that this template should be moved to Template:Infobox language, mostly because this is an infobox →AzaToth 10:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: support. even if it is very nice and short now, but we should take care of WP as a whole and stick to this format. Then, within thousands of templates the Infoboxes can be quickly identified. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe there is any guideline that says that an infobox template has to have infobox in its name, though some do. To make this change, we would have to alter every article in which the template occured, using a redirect here in the meantime. This is a huge amount of work for what is a hidden, internal stylistic change without a guideline to back it up. Maybe we should have a list for those who support the change and want to do it/programme the bot. --Gareth Hughes 17:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: technically this is no problem. Move the template. And look for a guy with a bot. There are lot's of bot guy around, I think. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 18:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK then. There are a number of sub-templates that this one uses that will have to be moved too. The links that reference them in the template itself will have to be changed too. The question is why: why do we need to move this at all (because it is an infobox is no real answer)? --Gareth Hughes 19:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: of course exactly only because it is an infobox. This is a real answer. See Wikipedia:Infobox_templates, lots of conforming and lot of unconforming Infoboxes. It's nice to see from a template name that it is an infobox. Template:Language can be lots of things, but Template:Infobox Language is very clear. BTW use uppercase L, because it is not a Infobox language but a Infobox named Language. Seems to be favored way for new templates anyway. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why does it matter? I really doubt a whole bunch of non-editors will be looking at this template. --Khoikhoi 02:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe read the above. There are thougth(s) of why it matters. Nobody claimed non-editors would look at templates at all. one more ref how others stick to standards: Special:Allpages/Template:Infobox - BTW: if it does not matter to you, we could move? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But what's the point of sticking to standards if non-editors aren't gonna see it? --Khoikhoi 00:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: to the help of editors? ;-) Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW: IMO it's nothing that has to be done immediatly. Just something that IMO should be done some day. If anybody has the bot and the in-template references can be fixed. do it (IMO). Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move this template to [[Template:Infobox language]] 

message: I noticed that the colors for Australian and Papuan languages are very similar, and it's almost hard to tell the difference unless they are side-by-side. I suggest we make the color darker or lighter for one of them. Any thoughts? --Khoikhoi 03:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you mean. The current colours are  for  and  for . We might want to move one or both to plum and/or magenta. --Gareth Hughes 11:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I like plum, if you ask me. — mark ✎ 14:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Plum is nice, but magent is not nice, I would suggest: #fd79da for  and #eba9ee for  →AzaToth 17:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As you can see from my last post, the colours have been updated to those proposed by AzaToth. They are now more distinct. --Gareth Hughes 17:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They look a lot better now. --Khoikhoi 02:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Australian and Papuan language colors 

message: If we get a bot, maybe other usefull stuff could be done. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I didn't want to get into that position, and I hope that in the future the template will be easier to understand and edit. I've been making quite a few changes by hand, but I don't think a bot would be able to do much of these other changes. Language coding is complicated enough as to require some human thought. Splitting  into  parameters also probably requires human attention. Putting region and states together is rather an optional thing in my mind: if you can't think of anything useful to put in two geographical fields, leave one of them out. A lot of infoboxes use ,  and  with no useful information (stopping the infobox compacting). There a few regular things that seem to be put in these otherwise null strings, so the bot would have to be given a sense of what is an obviously useless string. Probably the most useful thing a bot could do is to learn  and change all definitions of  that are colour names into language-family names. This would end the current silliness of pink=tomato! --Gareth Hughes 18:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I put some of your thoughts in the above list. some stuff is marked with question mark. maybe you can add some further thoughts to these. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 22:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I've added some bits to it. Gareth Hughes 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bot work 

message: Hi all. I would like to trigger a conversion of this master piece from usage of template:if (talk) to the faster and server friendlier template:qif (talk). I have done a try (without the noinclude section) at User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 (diff). Note: this is a manual conversion.
What do you think? Or would any of the local experts do the conversion? Please feel free to edit User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 as you see fit (open house user sub-page, also the associated talk page). – Adrian | Talk 21:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You've obviously made a straight switch between  with numbered parameters and . It seems that  hasn't thrown up any problems so far. I suggest we change to the new template and see what happens. I imagine  is a pretty good test for any logic template! --Gareth Hughes 00:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Thanks for the reply. Yea this is a nice master piece of if logic and I can say that, although it's a tough one I found it quite straight to convert thanks to its clean structure and good indenting. However, I'm very reluctant to just throw my proposal in, as this is obviously very delicated stuff and I'm not an expert of the field. Yes, I've done a stright convert to qif, but we could easily do that in two steps and switch to the named parameters variant of if as a first step. I could do a search and replace on User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 from qif to if and put that into Template:Language as an intermediate step. A good idea would be if I do this when you are around on wikipedia so you can quickly see if something breaks and revert. Maybe you could leave a message on my talk when you're online. Alternatively, of course I would also be happy if you do the conversion yourself (you don't have to use User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1, maybe it would even be better if you don't use that because you know the structure of Template:Language much better than I do). I Hope I did not give too many options :-). What do you think? Thanks! – Adrian | Talk 08:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I Hope I did not give too many options :-) - have you considered using  to present your thoughts? :P  — mark ✎ 09:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know switch. But my intention was not to do development on template:language. My goal is just to eliminate if by doing (stupid) status-quo preserving conversion jobs to qif. I cannot comment on using switch at the moment. – Adrian | Talk 10:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Warning: User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 is out of sync at the moment. This change would need to be factored in . – Adrian | Talk 16:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That change was helpful to the infobox on Arabic language (talk · [ history] · [ watch]). I used , and it can be easily factored in. I would suggest that this change be made to User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 and the whole lot shifted in here. There doesn't seem to be much reason to do this in stages: the template is already using  indirectly. Verifying that everything is working properly is a bit difficult. There are nearly a thousand articles that use the template, and they implement it in anumber of different subtle ways. In the highly unlikely event that the change wrecks the infobox entirely. it can be just reverted. It is far more likely that if there's a problem it will affect a few infoboxes in a not too spectacular way. So, it might take a few days to see if everything is fine. --Gareth Hughes 17:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I will go for it. Hold on your breath :-). – Adrian | Talk 17:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Done. See diff. Please revert if there is something broken. Thanks! (Updated) – – Adrian | Talk 18:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Well done! It's all working perfectly as far as I can see. I picked out a few language articles that implement the template in different ways, and they are all displaying normally. --Gareth Hughes 18:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Everything is fine. I've noticed (in the section below edit boxes) that this template is calling sub-templates that it isn't using. I haven't noticed this before, so it might be a side-effect of using . The sub-templates in question are  and . The former is only used by a handful of constructed languages, but it appears to be called by every (?) language article with the template. The latter sub-template is only used where a language has multiple ISO 639-3 codes, but appears to be used by every language article using the template. There may be other sub-templates that are being called and not used in this way, but I just haven't had time to check for them. I think these sub-templates are called directly off the back of a , and that calling them through  might reduce server load. Also, if anyone is a good CSS hack, please take a look at : it shouldn't have borders when added into the main template. --Gareth Hughes 13:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conversion to qif