Talk:Makara Jyothi

message: Adding photos to this article may leads to dispute as it fells in Hindu beliefs so kindly other users don't add any photos. --WP MANIKHANTA Talk 09:07, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

message: I suggest the whole page can be re written in the light of new revelations. It can also be inclusive of the points of both the sections. Please Discuss (Niketsundaram1977 (talk) 23:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: --- all these contents should be properly screened, it may raise a communal issue since it is related to the spirit of crores of devotees --
Some of the rationalist activists from Kerala (such as Dhanuvachapuram Sukumaran, A.V.Jose etc) do possess the photographs they had taken when they went to Ponnambalamedu in 1981. Indian Atheist Publishers, New Delhi too seems to have in their posession some of those photographs. Will anybody get hold of them and upload the photos to wikipedia, after getting proper permission from the copyright holders? MANOJTV 11:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Photographs

message: A number of well known individuals have come out with statements opposing/exposing the involement of the Kerala Government in perpetuating this fraud. Some of them are:
# Edamaruku (late), Rationalist & Writer
# M. Krishnan Nair (late), Director General of Police, Kerala (wrote about the involvement of police in his autobiography serialised in Mathrubhumi weekly) 
# Pavanan (late), Malayalam Literary critic, Writer, political activist & rationalist.
# Sugatha Kumari, Malayalam Poet. MANOJTV 12:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eminent Figures who opposed this fraud

message: The user has committed vandalism by removing a very important paragraph. He or she did not give any reason for this deletion. This very same person earlier (on 2 March 2007) visted the page on Electronic Nose and added nonsense there. It seems the user does not require any reason for indulging in vandalism. MANOJTV 14:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism by the user with IP Address No.202.88.253.50

message: * Sabarimala Ayyappan was essentially a local deity of Keralites (Ayyappan, son of Vishnu and Shiva, is not mentioned any of the Hindu purnas/mythologies), though it has been gaining prominence in the southern states of India recently - during the last 2 to 3 decades. This fraud of Makara Jyothi too was essentially a local fraud perpetrated on the local people by the local government, though it is now marketed as part of Religious-tourism. Naturally, it is the local activists who took the initiative to expose it. Naturally, again, it is mainly the local media who reported about it. (By the way, as a solace to those who crave for a non-local media, the now defunct The Illustrated Weekly of India published by The Times of India group too published in the 1980s an article on the expose of Makarajyothi. Unfortunately, I do not have copy of the article to cite as reference). Hence the references to local media is not something to be despised at. It is worthwhile to point out here that because of the effort of local media and local activists, it is no more a miracle to the local devotees of Sabarimal Ayyappan. It is mainly catered to/marketed among the devotees coming from outside the state of Kerala.
* Though I agree that that Makara Jyothi belongs, in some sense, to the same category as the Alien abduction or Bermuda Triangle, there is a major difference. This is an outright fraud (with financial ramifications) committed with the active aid of an elected government on the gullible devotees. This is not acceptable and should be exposed.
* I did not contribute the article. I only added information after somenoneelse uploaded the article claiming that Makara Jyothi was a miracle.
* Though I have serious reservations with the epistemological stand taken by the above contributor, since we are not discussing the theory of knowledge, I do want to say anything here. MANOJTV 14:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Local fraud and ''Local'' media

message: * From the IP address as well as from the language of the user, it seems, the above contributor is not a first time contributor (one who has been watching from the sidelines so far)to this page as he/she claims to be. I could be wrong. It is always possible that two persons might have been using the same computer for accessing internet/wikipedia.
* Coming to the issues s/he raised, let me try my best to give some satisfactory answers. 
1. Jesus & his life in India: I don't know what precisely is the relevance of this topic here. I don't find any. But if one asks me about the so-called miracles performed by him, then ofcourse there is some relevance - both (Makarajyothi & miracles of  Jesus) belongs to the broad category of miracles. But the miracles that the Bibles attributes to Jesus belongs to the same category of miracles as the ones one can see in other religious texts such as Mahabharatha, Ramayana, Quran etc.
None of these stories, to me, have any factual basis.  To give my opinion about Juses' life in India, I am not an authority on Christianity, Jesus, Bible etc.  I have read books which logically argued that this claim did not have any historical basis. There are authors who claims that Jesus (as given in the Bible) did not exist - they quotes a lot of similarities in the lifes of Christ & Krishna. It is possible that there have been a lot of give and take between Hindu and Christian mythologies. It is difficult to arrive at a final answer.
2. The role of media in exposing this fraud: If a media is socially responsible, they should have sent their correspondents to Ponnambalamedu with their TV crew to find out what is happening there on the day of Makarasankranthi. Unfortunately, they won't do this - it's a highly sensitive religious issue for them to expose.  Even if they want to, they will not be allowed by the posse of Kerala Police to approach the exact spot where this drama is enacted. (In 1982 a group of rationalists where beaten up by the police when they went there to do a repeat of 1981)A  But atleast they could report on the resistence on the part of the police. But one who wants to really expose it, they can attempt a Tehelka type investigation to bring out this fraud perpetrated on the devotees. I only hope someone with the required wherewithals will do it in the near future.
3. Buddhist Leanings: Yes, there are studies which shows/claims that Sabarimala was a Buddhist pilgrim centre which was later captured by the Brahmins/Hindus.
4. Role of government: The police protection given by the Kerala Police started after a large group (100+) of rationalists finally exposed this fraud in 1981. Before that it was managed by the temple authorities with the help of the officials of Idukki/Pampa irrigation project who own the land (Ponnambalamedu).
5.What was the origin of this miracle? Did the temple authorities manage this affair from time immemorial? 
The involvement of temple authorities in lighting this lamp is definitely comparatively recent - a few decades (from the beginning of last century?) old. It is difficult to say when exactly did they get involved in this affairs, unless the temple authorites themselves come out with the truth - that is asking for the moon!
What was happening before the temple authorities themselves started lighting this miraculous beacon? That is a matter of conjuncture. One possible explanation is: The tribal people who were residing at the hilly areas of Ponnambalamedu might have regularly lighted fire to keep themselves warm in the winter (December/January) season; they might have lighted it as a means to drive away the wild animals. This would have appeared to the devotees standing in Sabarimala as a Jyothi. Doubtless, the tribals would have lighted the fire throughout the winter season. But who bothers to notice? That is the power of faith! Who bothers to look whether eagles are regularly present in the surroundings of Sabarimala and not just on the day of Thiruvabharanam? 
After the irrigation project came up in the area, the tribals left the area leaving nobody to create the miraculous beacon! The ingenuity of the temple authorities came out with the solution - light it themselves! Thus began the saga of the modern avatar of Makarajyothi!
6. Financial ramifications? Yes, the State of Kerala has been experiencing a large influx of fund from outside the state during the Sabarimala pilgrim season. In fact, the government hell-bent on promoting tourism as a mega-industry (regardless of the consequences - destruction of the pristine environment, prostitution, etc) has come out with a new term - Religious Tourism, with Sabarimala and Guruvayoor as the focus. Which government wants to give up such a huge revenue? Which political party (left/centre/right) wants to alienate the hindu voters?
Finally, what really matters to me is what's happening now and not what would have happened in the past.
Hope I have succeeded in clarifying certain of the queries the contributor raised.MANOJTV 01:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Towards a clarification

message: I reproduce a report (dateline: January 11, 2007, Ponnambalamedu) filed by a NDTV correspondent on Makara Jyothi. Here is the link: http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070000611 (Accessed on May 28, 2007). Here is the link to the visuals: http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/videos.aspx?id=10648
And here is the report:
"<FONT COLOR="#0000ff">Sabarimala miracle claims disputed
NDTV Correspondent, 
Thursday, January 11, 2007 (Ponnambalamedu)
Makaravilakku or the festival of divine light at Sabarimala draws the second largest number of pilgrims in the country. Devotees say the appearance of the light three times is a miracle but some say it is a set up.
Every Makar Sakranthi at 6.30 pm the summit of a hill opposite the Ayyappa temple lights up. Government broadcasters Doordarshan and All India Radio cover the annual event live. The divine light or Makarajyothi draws a million devotees according to the Devaswom Board, which runs the temple management. Pilgrims stream in from several states, some of them hold on to vantage positions for several days to witness the event. 
"A light appears on the hill, it's a miraculous thing and that is why pilgrims are coming," says the President of Tranvancore Devasnom Board Raman Nair. 
Not a miracle
A former employee of the Kerala State Electricity Board (KSEB) Shivananda claims the light is not a miracle. "When I got transferred to the Pampa division of KSEB near Sabarimala, I got an opportunity to actually see this light being lit in 1981," he said. "A Devaswom Board assistant engineer Karunakaran Nair, two policemen and two labourers had come there. They had one or two kilograms of camphor and an aluminium vessel. The light was lit by a KSEB driver VR Gopinathan Nair," Shivananda explains. <FONT COLOR="#ff0000">This version of the light is widely known in Kerala but rarely discussed.</FONT> 
Devasnom Minister G Sudhakaran says, "nobody has examined it, government never inquired into it, we are not planning to inquire into that because that is related to the faith of devotees for hundreds of years." "As far as the temple is concerned as far as the belief is concerned it is not good for the government to inquire " Sudhakaran said. 
But as the pilgrims increased in the mid-eighties the enterprise drew in more personnel and resources including a large contingent of police making it harder to conceal. Till the early 1980s igniting the light was confined to a small group of KSEB employees who helped the Devaswom Board.
Another former KSEB employee says, "when I went there in 1986, the police had completely cordoned off the area. They let in only a few people whom they knew well. Officials from Devaswom Board lit the light". 
Closely guarded site
A forest road runs from Vandi Periyar, 100 kms from Kottayam. Of Kochu Pampa, midway to Sabarigiri hydel project a mud track goes inside the reserve forest. The forest department closely guards the road. The key to a barricade on the road is with the nearest forest check post a couple of kilometers away. The forest department reportedly opens the barricade and lets Dewasom and police officials into Ponnambalamedu where the miracle is set up. 
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000">"Makarajyoti is the biggest ritualistic fraud in the country which has disastrous social and ecological impact," Dr PM Rajan Gurukkal, director of the School of Social Sciences said. "On that day many people remain in vulnerable positions unmindful of the danger to see the state sponsored magic. The core of the whole activity is commerce. It generates a lot of money and a miracle attracts a lot of people".</FONT>
In 1999 a stampede among pilgrims gathered to see the light left 52 people dead."</FONT> MANOJTV 04:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[NDTV]] reports on Makara Jyothi

message: The author is providing a humongously biased false story taken from gossip magazines and gossip journals published by so called rationalists. 
It is sad to see that wikipedia allows such false matter taken from magazines and journals without any credibility to be printed. Bhanave 08:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The author is providing a humongously biased false story taken from gossip magazines and gossip journals published by so called rationalists.  

message: The content of the article is purely a biased version of the history. By this the author(s) is trying to disturb the crores of Lord Ayyappa devotees. Pls update the document or remove it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gops808 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article should be removed 

message: I've checked this page several times since the first time I stumbled across it, and almost always find something either anti-christian or anti-hindu has been added to the first section. Also, I've found that every time words such as "miracle" appear, someone sees the need to either italicize it, put it in quotes, sometimes even both. Also, oftentimes these changes have horrible grammar, and are completely unrelated to the topic. So far as I know, this topic isn't high enough in public knowledge to explain the frequency of these changes, so I'm guessing it's one person repeatedly vandalizing the page to make a point. --24.109.147.70 21:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think NPOV tag can be removed at this stage since controversy section added along with references. Only thing mention about “miracle” may be an issue. But since there is no substitution and devotees believe so, leave it as it is. One more general cleanup also required as many materials repeating (please confirm) numerous times. I also suggest removing words like ‘fraud’ and other unreferenced sources (if there is) see WP:UNDUE, WP:TRUTH etc. Can someone look into this? --Avinesh Jose   T   08:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV in this article 

message: I made a massive edits with plenty of general cleanups in every sections. Inviting a third person to verify it again and possible removal of all three tags placed i.e NPOV, Essay-like, Inappropriate-tone. Thanks. --Avinesh Jose   T   11:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing tags 

message: The lead of this article says it is about a light that is lit, it makes no mention of any supernatural claims.
Then two paragraphs later there is talk of a natural explanation, that this is not in fact a "celestial event."
I just don't understand. Sethie (talk) 04:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Am I missing something

message: Though this acts as contreversy, the real fact being, that it is impossible for the light to be vissible this far aaway. According to the sightings of many millions, there has a been a clear sight of it. Unless, something real big (like a forest fire), it is impossible to really see such a big light at a uch a huge distance (about 6~10 Km.) The real queston is however that no matter if it is true or fales, but why doesn't the Kerala Govt. allow scientific study on it??  Question to be answered.! 
[added comment by annoym user: 70.142.163.67]. (Moved by:--Avinesh Jose   T   06:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved annonym comment from article page to discussion page 

message: (read the whole thing)
Let me point out one thing very specifically. Now 'Sabarimala Women entry' is in the Supreme Court of India. Some young women lawyers allege it is "female discrimination" not to allow women. Even the Supreme Court took it very serious and today referred it to higher Constitutional Bench
How can there be female discrimination when lakhs of women have a 'darshan' every year. Young women only from the age of 10-50 are not allowed, but media hyped it to such an extent that even the Supreme Court felt "Women" are not allowed and there can be a possibility of "Female inequality". Any person in Kerala knows millions of women above the age of 50 and girls below the age of 10 goes there. So it is not "Female Discrimination" as such. But by the USE OF WORDS "Sabarimala Women Entry", a sense, a connotative meaning has come as if there is 'female discrimination'.
In the same way, those people who dont know the basic difference between "Makara Jyoti - a star in the sky" and "Makara Vilakku- light LIT there symbolically by authorities is making these problems". For source, you cannot get these information 
in internet. You have to go to basic, grass root levels for gathering such information. 
All Keralites know there is no mystery surrounding Makara Jyoti and Makara Vilakku...if some one wants to create mystery & miracle first and then DEBUNK later. Well, it is their choice. I repeat to the so-called ignorant beliveres, that Makara Vilakku is man lit, and there is no miracle. Even in the legend, it is recorded that Ayyappa appears as "Makara Jyoti - star" and not makara vilakku. For the faithful they can believe it is Ayyappa, but remember Makara Vilakku is just symbolic deeparadhana. 
For the rationalists, they deserve applause for they are the people who always acts as a "check" from people going from 'Belief to Superstition'. That is good. But in temple matters, rationalists need not force them from 'belief to non-belief'.
As a society we want religious belief to exist, not as a superstition, but in a more scientifically accepted way.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.67.29 (talk) 22:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why do people fight over their Misunderstandings? 

message: When I reverted the vandalised page to an earlier better version of the article, the external links were deleted becasuse I faced certain problems. The following is the message displayed by the Wikipedia.
""Your edit includes new external links. These may be much welcomed links to references. Please note that the nofollow HTML attribute is applied to external links in Wikipedia, instructing search engines to ignore these links when computing page ranks. For information on our standards for adding links, please see our External links Guideline. 
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I request some other wikipedia contributers who are more familiar with wikipedia editing to reinstate all the links (as on 6 March 2008 edited by 59.93.10.253)I had to delete to revert the article to the previous page. It would be better if some one can reinstate the entire article (including the external links) as of that day. In the meantime I will try myself to do it.Againstvandals (talk) 09:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: How to reinstate external links as references

message: The article and the various discussions that have appeared on this page seem to point out to light from two sources - one makara jyothi and another makara vilaku. However the article does not discuss whether these are one and the same, or different. this has led to ambuguity for a reader. Please clarify whether makara jyothi is different from makara vilakku.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iatrowvw (talk • contribs) 16:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Makara jyoti & vilaku - clarification required 

message: I find the entire article confusing. The introductory paragraph does not establish simple information:
* "Makarajyoti is a star which is worshipped by the pilgrims."
** What pilgrims? Where does this occur?
* "...(divine ornaments) are brought into the sanctum sanctorum and are placed on the Lord."
** What "Lord"?
* "It draws the second largest number of pilgrims in the country."
** What country? Although it is obviously India, an encyclopedia article should say that.
Other statements need clearification for those who do not live in India. "...it is believed that 15 lakh devotees..."; great, so what is a "lakh"? 184.77.159.253 (talk) 19:04, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand this article very well either. Is this really an actual star? Does it have an official designation and an HD catalogue entry? And how does it disappear as the final ornaments are brought? --Vittau (talk) 14:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm not from India 

message: There has been an extensive discussion in this page that whether the light that appears three times in man lit or supernatural.
*Seeking to downplay the debate over 'Makara Jyothi' of Sabarimala temple, Travancore Devaswom Board (TDB) today said it was known to most believers that it was a man lit-fire, but there was a Hindu belief behind it.
It is to be noted that these news paper claims were not speculation or gossips as said above, they are facts said in a press meet by TDB President M Rajagoplan Nair. Since it is an official statement by the Travancore Devaswom Board, the highest temple authority in this matter, I hope this will end the controversies without hurting anyones feelings.
Sources:
*http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/7398030.cms
*http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article1116827.ece
*http://www.hindu.com/2011/01/22/stories/2011012263371300.htm
*http://www.deccanchronicle.com/national/sabarimala-tdb-says-makara-jyothi-man-lit-124
IN CASE OF DEBATES, Courts Verdict is the Final Word. 
Kerala High Court verdict differentiating Makara Jyothi & Makara Vilakku - https://sites.google.com/site/legalindiaresearch/judgments/kerala-high-court/2011-klr/-2011-209-klr/-2011-209-klr-475/2011209klr475 
That Settles the dispute unless challenged in Supreme Court   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.92.13.229 (talk) 22:52, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Makara Jyothi is Man-lit - Said by Travancore Devaswom Board 

message: Substituted at 22:53, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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