Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 8

message: This page appears to have suffered far too much reversion today. I've protected it for a bit; please discuss this here, and leave a note on my talk page (or another admins) when you think unprotection would be indicated William M. Connolley 21:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: In my previous edits, I stated that Pontian Greeks would be more accurate for the fact that there are more Pontian Greeks in this part of Macedonia than native Greeks. According to Danforth's book The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 640,000 Pontian Refugees settled in Macedonia which rose the Greek population from 21 PERCENT TO 70 PERCENT meaning that 49% were Pontian Greeks and 21% were (I assume) native Greeks who inhabited the region before the refugees came. Here is the source, you must have a Google or Gmail account to access it... 
--Macedonia 01:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nationalist fables again - that is anything but a neutral source. Those are Popov's, Radin's and Simovski's estimates and you are welcome to mention them, but you cannot present them as a statement of fact, but must attribute the claim to the original source (i.e. according to Popov, Radin and Simovski the Greek population of Macedonia rose from 12% to 70% due to the influx of immigrants not Pontic immigrants are 100% of the Greeks in Macedonia). We should also mention the Greek side of things that all Macedonians/Bulgarians were repatriated to Bulgaria as part of the 1920s population exchanges under the Treaty of Neuilly, leaving Macedonia clean of Slavs. --Latinus 01:10, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: User:Macedonia's figures may be the case, but it is just one opinion (that of the Slav authors above - there is a vast difference between 21 and 70 percent), but it doesn't justify saying ethnic Macedonians share Macedonia with the Pontic Greeks and Bulgarians. The Pontic Greeks are now inhabitants of Macedonia, hence "Macedonian Greeks" and have been so for the last 80 years. If you check the sources from the Google test above, you will see that Greeks (and maybe Bulgarians) view Macedonian as a regional identity, just as someone who is ethnically English can be a Londoner or a Yorkshireman. I should also note that Pontians are not an ethnic group, but a "cultural" group within Greek society, so contrasting them with actual ethnic groups in misleading. If you want to mention Simovski's figures and the Ottoman censi, feel free to, just don't say that all Greeks in Macedonia are Pontians. That's what you were saying before... gross inaccuracy and offensive to the original Greeks living there. I would support saying either "Greeks" or "Macedonian Greeks" - the inclusion of Macedonian is primarily to avoid your monopolisation of the name. If "Greeks" alone is used, then the disambiguation note (currently very short) should be amended accordingly to avoid any potential monopolisation. --Latinus 01:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SOURCES 

message: It is being talked about ethnic groups: "shared with other ethnic groups, mainly ***** Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians". Now Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians are ethnic groups. "Macedonian Greeks" or "Pontian Greeks" are not ethnic groups. The Macedonian or Pontian is simply an adjective (describing the ethnic group - Greeks) That way the sentance is false. It should simply be "Greeks". Come now, this is so obvious. Must we fight even over obvious things that should be clear to anyone no matter how bias they are? --Realek 22:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am inclined to agree with Realek's meaning, if not the entirety of its expression.  Jkelly 23:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree both with the expression and the content of Jkelly, it's kinda dissappointing, for all others, I would think... The myth of Pontian-Greek population majority in Macedonia must be discussed and resolved once for all. If not here, then maybe in Talk:Macedonia (region) or Talk:Macedonia (Greece).  NikoSilver  (T)@(C) 23:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It's certainly not here that we have to treat the question. I also agree with Realek: we should put apart the Macedonian/Pontian dispute, as it has no place here. The Macedonian Greeks don't exist as a separate ethnicity, and this is a fact; Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians do. For this I support simply writing: (shared with other ethnic groups, mainly Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians). This is how I see it. --Aldux 14:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The discussion going on about Macedonian or Pontian Greeks is irrelevant and unnecesary! 

message: We must comply to the principles of Wikipedia and have the both POV equally represented in the article. --Komitata 10:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  We must comply to the principles of Wikipedia 

message: A few years ago, Sofia announced that due to its inevitable EU membership, many citizens of the ROM were declaring themselves as Bulgarians in order to receive a (future) EU passport. By the way, has there ever been a province called Bulgarian Vardar province or a Bulgarian Vardar dialect? - Politis 15:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont believe that the region was called "Vardar province", when it was part of San Stefano Bulgaria of 1878, from 1915 to 1918 in WW1 or from 1941 to 1944 in WW2. It was called Macedonia district. FunkyFly 15:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, stabbed in the heart. Got up on the wrong foot this morning, didn't we? :)) FunkyFly 17:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I might be missing a point. What will be deleted? The official Bulgarian view is that there are three historical regions in which Bulgarians live - that is why there are three lions in the coat of arms. The three regions are Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia. The central lion is Macedonia which the two other lions support. --Komitata 16:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Macedonian territories were divided into two administrative districts during 1941-1944 Skopje and Bitola. To obtain citizenship now one has to declare Bulgarian national feeling (in written form). Some other things that help the process, but do not grant it -  All the citizens at the time were given Bulgarian citizenship, so those from the former Bulgarian districts  can claim citizenship because they (or their parents) have never lost it actually. Another way is to prove that somebody from the family served in the Bulgarian army (one corp was recruited from Macedonia - at least 30 000 people I think so it's a lot of people) or was a Bulgarian civil servant, teacher, doctor, etc. For those in the former Italian/Albanian zone it is more difficult, because they have clearly to declare their Bulgarian consciousness and do not have the other helping options.  --Komitata 16:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

text: My friend, you are so self-centered. Noone is questioning your nationality. In fact, I can tell you that you are the pinnacle of the present day macedonian civilization. However, you blame others exactly for your own faults. Aren't you defining nationality of every citizen of RoM from your own stand point? FunkyFly 21:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bulgarian Vardar Province?

message: The page was locked when edit warring occured on this issue. I proposed this solution but i feel it wasn't given enough attention (purposely or not - I will not get into that). So now I repost what was said then and hope we will continue with a meaningfull discussion.  --Realek 22:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am inclined to agree with Realek's meaning, if not the entirety of its expression.  Jkelly 23:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree both with the expression and the content of Jkelly, it's kinda dissappointing, for all others, I would think... The myth of Pontian-Greek population majority in Macedonia must be discussed and resolved once for all. If not here, then maybe in Talk:Macedonia (region) or Talk:Macedonia (Greece).  NikoSilver  (T)@(C) 23:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It's certainly not here that we have to treat the question. I also agree with Realek: we should put apart the Macedonian/Pontian dispute, as it has no place here. The Macedonian Greeks don't exist as a separate ethnicity, and this is a fact; Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians do. For this I support simply writing: (shared with other ethnic groups, mainly Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians). This is how I see it. --Aldux 14:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid you misunderstood me Miskin. I didn't say "now" to point out that i'm talking about the present. I'm not sure how do you call that kind of word, but native english speakers surely understood in wich context I have used it. You can ignore the "now". The sentance might as well be: Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians are ethnic groups. Nevermind that. My point still stands - Pontian/Macedonian greeks are not (nor they have been) separate ethnic groups, regardless of weather they'we been a part of the greek kingdom. --Realek 12:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Macedonians did exist century ago, Matia, no matter how they were called, they were often prefixed with "Macedonian this or that". Bomac 11:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's your point, didn't the Greeks? Greeks have been in Macedonia (region) long before the Slavs came (regardless if that includes the Ancient Macedonians) and have been called Macedonian Greeks as demonstrated above. Why can't their self-identifying name be used? --LionKing 11:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Латинец, the self-identifying name is Greeks. Macedonians is the self-identifying name of the Mac. Slavs. They were also called "Macedonian this or that", as "demonstrated" above. Bomac 11:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: You are creating yourself an imaginary propaganda. I've never said that there weren't native Greeks in Makedonia, I was only trying to state that there are sources which confirm that the term "Macedonians" was used (in one way or another) to describe the Slavic peoples in Macedonia long before (Matia's statement) - a century. Bomac 12:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really, today Greeks call themselves Έλληνες/Hellenes (Greeks), but this is recent. Greeks in the Ottoman Empire used different names, see Names of the Greeks and did not call themselves Greeks. Whether today's Macedonians (ethnic group) were called Macedonian Bulgarians or something similar back then still does not mean that the Greeks in Macedonia didn't call themselves Macedonians (or Macedonian Greeks). --LionKing 12:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Латинец, "Greek" is the germanic, romanic, slavic name of Hellenes. That's OK, but, as you know, Greeks are Greeks, Macedonians are Macedonians. Bomac 12:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't agree with the second part of your statement, caus it's a similar case like the Greeks - they weren't always calling themselves Greeks, but it's totally another issue. Bomac 13:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, that's your POV, it's so obvious. I've already explained why the term needs to be mentioned, and I've already cited its widespread scholarly use. I'm not going to compromise with a biased POV. Besides User:Macedonia's personal page says it all. Miskin 16:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The discussion going on about Macedonian or Pontian Greeks is irrelevant and unnecesary! '''BIS''' 

message: Introduction
Greece vigorously denies the existence of any ethnic minorities on its territory and attempts to suppress any voices that advocate human rights. Simply raising the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece causes Greek citizens and politicians alike to react in outrage. The majority of Greek society supports its government's non-recognition and discrimination of its large Macedonian minority. Following are several examples of Greece’s constant abuse of the Macedonian minority’s rights. 
Freedom of Expression and the Media
On August 14, 2005, the Greek daily newspaper “Makedonia” censored an article on the Macedonian language in Greece entitled “A Short Note on a Banned Language”. Writer Thanasis Triaridis discussed Greece’s refusal to recognize its national minorities and called for the lifting of the ban on the Macedonian language. Greek Helsinki Monitor condemned the censorship and considered it a ”…violation of freedom of expression, symptomatic of the prevailing intolerance towards national minorities in Greece, and especially the Macedonian minority. Such an attitude is incompatible with the "state of law" that is supposed to prevail in Greece, and was denounced in 2004 and 2005 by a number of international organisations, which urged Greece to recognize its minorities and respect their freedom of expression and association.” 1
On June 2, 2005, Greek authorities refused to issue accreditation to three Macedonian journalists working for television station A1 (based in Skopje, Republic of Macedonia) who wanted to travel to northern Greece to meet with members of the region's Macedonian minority. Reporters Without Borders stated,
“A refusal by the authorities of a European Union member country to grant accreditation to foreign journalists without any official explanation and without legal grounds constitutes an obstruction to the free movement of journalists and a press freedom violation. This behaviour by the Greek authorities could set a dangerous precedent and could encourage other countries to screen visa and accreditation requests from foreign journalists according to the subjects they want to cover," 2
On March 27, 2005, the 2nd channel of Greek State Television (NET) aired the previously banned documentary entitled “Taxidevontas stin Ellada” (Traveling in Greece). The initial broadcast of the video (dedicated to Florina/Lerin region) was scheduled for March 20, 2005 but was postponed because, according to the presenter, the inhabitants of a Florina/Lerin village stated on camera that the Greek state banned the use of their Macedonian mother tongue.
After EBLUL’s official protest for the ban of the broadcast and in cooperation with Greek Helsinki Monitor the issue was brought to the UN Human Rights Committee (UNHRC) in Geneva. After the virulent criticism from the members of the Committee, Greece’s representative claimed that the documentary was not broadcast due to “technical reasons” only and promised it would be aired on the 27th of March, as it eventually happened. 3
On Friday, 4 June 2004, police entered the premises of the private radio station Makedonikos Ichos (Macedonian Sound) in Naoussa (Negush), ceased transmission and arrested the owner, Aris Vottaris. The official explanation was that this radio station had no licence for local or regional transmission. Vottaris was released after a few hours, but charges were pressed against him because of illegal transmission and lack of documents. Vottaris often transmitted traditional songs and dances in the Macedonian language, as well as using the Macedonian language on air.
Just thought that some users here might want to have a look at this, its just a series of events that took place in Greece last year concerning the Macedonian Minority, this annual report was just issued a few days ago (the whole report can be seen here ) - Macedonia 02:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL - that document is from on organization called "Macedonian Human Rights Movement International", so I hope you won't object if I dismiss that document as giving a selective and biased interpretation of events. This "Macedonian" minority, which consists of less than 2,000 people (as demonstrated in the latest elections) receives as much recognition and benefits as the Greek minority in Skopje (numbers are about the same) and as you will see for yourself, when/if FYROM joins the EU. Human Rights conditions will be placed under tight scrutiny and fully fledged minorities will be created out of thin air and their numbers based on "estimates" dating back a few decades before WWI. The mere fact that this report claims that Greece vigorously denies the existence of any minorities is a blatant lie, obviously overlooking the fact that the ethnic Turks in Western Thrace receive more than the Aromanians in FYROM do, in terms of education in their mother tongue, state sponsored interpreters everywhere, state sponsored mosques, a percentage of university places is always reserved for members of this minority and Turkish speakers are always counted in the census (including the level of knowledge). As the Greek state said in the Bletsas case  every other non Greek speaking, but native, inhabitants are not minorities, but isolated individuals (see the difference with the Greeks of Albania). Greece (and I don't think any county would) recognize and promote a minority language spoken (presumably not fluently, how could they with no education) by approximately one person every ten square kilometers. Unfortunately, it is too late, the precious "Macedonian" minority has been assimilated (just like the Greeks in Skopje), although if FYROM is willing to fork over some cash, which will be added to the taxes paid by the members of this minority, might add up to be enough to run a school. The basic idea is why should a language with no more native speakers (in this particular region) be taught in schools on the Greek taxpayer's money. This minority is too small to run anything on its own - it's absurd to claim that Greece has banned a language. While I doubt it would ever be recognized as the Macedonian" language, it would be registered as the "Slavomacedonian" language of something similar. Finally, I would dearly love to see some Greek document banning this language; I am really interested to see how it was referred to. In a few years (if not already), assimilation will be complete (as all native speakers will have been born before the Civil War, they will be at least over 60 years old) and all native speakers will not live forever. This will ultimately result in a political party promoting the existence of a "Macedonian" minority, without a "Macedonian" minority ;-) --LionKing 09:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The number of Macedonians in Greece (or any minority in any country) is not determined by elections. It is determined by an census. So when Greece accepts that there are minorities on its territory, and starts counting them, and that census data doesn't get disputed by international observers, then and only then we can talk about the real number of Macedonians in Greece (left after  the continuous ethnic cleansing in 20th century). This being said, there is no need to comment on the rest of the nonsence you posted. --Realek 11:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't make personal attacks. I know the truth sometimes hurts, but deal with it ;-) --LionKing 11:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was no persoal attack whatsoever. But like I told you already - if you think you have grounds for reporting me, please do! --Realek 11:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a personal attack and you will be reported if you do it again. I see you have been warned before. LionKing 11:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Wait a minute, you just said "census data doesn't get disputed by international observers" - doesn't that conflict with  "Greek census data is disputet internationaly" (no source was cited for this claim BTW). I guess I exposed your double standards and proved that you make things up as you go along ;-) --LionKing 11:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You exposed nothing (except your inconsistancy and sensationalism about nothing). Read again: I'm talking about a hypothetical census in Greece in the future that doesn't get disputed. After all it is just few rows up for my words to get distorted this way. The current situation is that Greece doesn't recognize minorities and doesn't count them in the census. I don't need a source to dispute that kind of census. And my point still stands: the number of Macedonians in Greece (or any minority in any country) is not determined by elections. It is determined by an census. --Realek 11:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, a "hypothetical census" ;-) you changed your tune! Again, you falsely claim that Greece recongises no minorities, the ethnic Turks of Thrace would appear to disagree with you. Greece is recognising the "Macedonian" minority as much as FYROM is recognising its Greek minority. Not to mention that yes, you do need a source when you claim that Greece census is disputed internationally. I can tell you right now, no one doubts the validity of Greek census and no one has even implied that any data contained theirin in falsified. I notice that you tend to rely on your own opinion rather than sources - well done ;-) I remind you that in the absence of census data, there is no evidence to support the existance of a "Macedonian" minority. With the same rule, I can claim that 50% of FYROM are Greeks and say that until they are recognised and counted in a hypothetical census, we can't know the exact number. --LionKing 11:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I haven't changed anything! It was clear I was talking about a hypotetical future census in Greece.  At this moment an undisputed census in Greece is a fantasy. But be assured, under international pressure Greece will have to do it. Like I said - it is just few rows up for my words to get distorted this way! And concerning the Turks of Thrace - Greece is obliged to recognize them under the treaty of Neully. --Realek 16:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No sources? Therefore this is just your POV. I challenge you to link me to a specific quote confirming your claims. Following your logic, I can say, FYROM census is disputed internationally, in fact I'll say it now. FYROM's census is disputed internationally, but under international pressure FYROM will have to fix this and who knows how many thousands of Greeks will turn up ;-) LionKing 16:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Realek, remember: the Rainbow (political party) (Macedonian Slavs) FLUNKED with some 2,000 votes or so in Greek Macedonia. I can think of two options: (1)The others you claim, are not Slavs, (2)They don't want to be Slavs. I don't know which case you prefer... (while trying to find the correct link for the party, I came to this: Rainbow party. I couldn't help myself laughing...)  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 12:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha! ^___^ Seriously... Lol. - FrancisTyers 12:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Niko, evidently, everyone else in Greek Macedonia, do not want what the... "Rainbow Party" have to offer  and instead prefer to vote for Nea Dhimokratia, PASOK or even the far right nationalist LAOS. All the Slavs who didn't want a Rainbow Party (!) are are deemed by FYROM as "Grkomanite", people of Slavic ancestry, who now proudly declare themselves as Greeks and want to have nothing to do with FYROM, nor want what the "Rainbow Party" has to offer. FYROM of course tries to claim that they all are a minority with violated rights. As Greek citizens, they have the rights specified by law  and apparently only 2,000 are supporting those who complain. I guess the vast majority are happy. --LionKing 12:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: This is so heart-breaking. I so feel for your enslaved "Macedonian" brothers in Greece. It would be a serious case of human rights violations, if it wasn't a complete work of fiction from your talented novelists-historians. There have been elections, there have been censuses, everything imaginable, this "minority" simply fails to appear anywhere (expect some 1000-2000 people who hardly constitute a minority whatsoever).Where are these hundreds of thousands of oppressed people waiting for liberty? They don't exist. Oh I forgot, it's a conspiracy of the Greek state to silence them.--Avg 12:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah! The Greek state sent them to the second link!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 14:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Anyway, I think this talk page has been used as a message board long enough. User:Macedonia started it! --LionKing 13:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wonder, too, why they are not eager to embrace the ideas of this party.. Maybe because they have other view on the question of their nationality. Maybe they are a little more North-Eastern oriented (I am afraid to say the B-word :))--Komitata 15:19, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's simply coz they don't exist Komitata. No B's, no S's, only G's!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 15:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, they do exist in some form. The question is about their number and etnic character. I am not willing to argue, because this is just a matter of citing sources, not of an endless discussion. We have to show the prevalent opinions of the three sides - show our sources and move forward. We have an encyclopedia to make. We have to focus on resolving not on conflict. Its a matter of a hundred words, actually.--Komitata 15:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: You've hit the nail right on the head, Komitata ;-) There is an organization based in Edessa, calling itself "Bulgarian Human Rights in Macedonia", which claims that a separate Macedonian ethnicity does not exist, but there is a native Bulgarian minority in Greek Macedonia, the remnants of the 1920s population exchanges. This organization's leader, Nikolas Stoidis has claimed numbers as high as 50,000 (dubious, without edication, they will be assimilated by now). I'm inclined to believe that this version of events is closer to the truth, as it is a fact that these "Macedonian" organizations make up things. I read one claiming that the Pomaks in Western Thrace speak Macedonian, while everyone knows that they speak Bulgarian and every encyclopedic source describes it as such. So, there is one example of FYROM claiming a minority that's not theirs, perhaps this mysterious, but silent, "Macedonian" minority is in fact a Bulgarian one - who knows??? Outside the sphere of Tito's propaganda, the Slavophones in Greece were probably not a susceptible to it as the ones in Vardar Macedonia, despite what is sometimes claimed. Not to mention that there is no evidence of such a minority before the 1990s. Greece has been a member of the EU since the 1970s, so a Rainbow party could have claimed a right to operate. It did not though ;-) I can't think of another reasonable explanation... LionKing 15:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Macedonian Human Rights Movement International - 2006 Annual Report - The Macedonian Minority in Greece 

message: The Greek PM, Costas Karamanlis, is a Macedonian, so are many Greek MPs and Ministers. In Greece there is a Slav Macedonian (Slavophone) minority. And yes, it was refused some of its cultural rights by Athens and it should be able to express itself like all Greek citizens. I fully support that. But their culture and specific linguistic idiom is also pushed aside by Skopje; it imposes uniform criteria regarding the Greek Macedonian (Slav) identity and fails to take into consideration important variations. 
*The hard nationalistic line in some Skopje circles cannot blind us to the fact that the majority of (Slav) Macedonians in RoM/FYROM make great neighbours. Our friendship and ties are enduring. All constructive dialogue with Makedonci friends is welcome. Efharisto and blagodaram- Politis 16:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, I have been asking Realek for a credible source confirming his claim that the Greek census is disputed internationally again and again and he still hasn't cited one (of course he can't, none exist). Most of the time, it's just wishful thinking. --LionKing 17:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've answered you several times, but there's no reason I shouldn't do it again - the Greek census is disputed at least for the fact that it doesn't count the minorities. And because of the ridiculous Greek claim that 98% of the populatin of Greece are Greeks (don't drag those 2% thracian Turks into this again, because Greece is forced to recognize them under the treaty of Neully) --Realek 18:19, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm wondering, have these editors ever visited Greece and especially (Greek) Macedonia? It is the easiest of things to find out for themselves that Slavic minorities are nowhere to be seen. Except suppresing them, can the Greek state also hide them? --Avg 17:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The Balkans is not Scandinavia Macrakis. Unless you think that the United States would ever recognise a self-proclaimed "Californian" or "Texan" ethnic group within their territory, the term "suppression" becomes subjective. As it is seen in my sources (pasted above), the villaet of Monastiri was until the early 20th c. predominantly Greek. Unless something magical happened, I don't know how it's Macedonian Slavic nationalist today without any prior suppression. Miskin 18:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not about whether a government 'recognizes' some group; it is about the right of people to call themselves what they want, and to express their cultural identity.  The European Convention on Human Rights (to which Greece is a signatory) protects both the freedom of expression and the freedom of association. As for Monastiri, I don't see your point.  Of course there were many Greeks in Monastiri vilayet.  So what?  And what's this about Scandinavia?     Are you saying that Greece can't implement full European human rights? --Macrakis 18:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: They had numerous times the chance to show their strength with "Ouranio Toxo". Best they did was around 2000 votes in Florina and 6000 pan-hellenically (that is including OAKKE voters, which might be even half of it). Nobody oppressed their right to vote. We are a free country and we have free elections. It is simple. "They" don't feel that "they" have anything in common with what Ouranio Toxo claims, because "they" don't exist. We're talking about 2000 people here. Now about the trial cases you mention, well it happens that some of these distinguished gentlemen were actively propagandising the secession from Greece!--Avg 18:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have given a link to the trial transcript. There is no accusation of secessionism there (although there was apparently an agent provocateur who tried to approach Bletsas).  The document that Bletsas was distributing was published by the European Union for Lesser-Used Languages, an NGO with representatives from most European countries. As for Ouranio Toxo, there are lots of reasons for not voting for a particular political party; you can't measure how many people in Scotland consider themselves Scottish by counting votes for the Scottish National Party. --Macrakis 21:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Huh? Now you're stooping to ad hominem attacks on Danforth, a named-chair professor at a respected college, a long-time researcher on Greek ethnography with three books published by Princeton University Press? Can you cite any sources for these accusations? Perhaps negative reviews in scholarly journals? --Macrakis 18:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: User:Macedonia is a Macedonian Canadian. He recently revamped his user page with a Britannica at his side. If he's an American academic, I'm an American Ninja (am I?)... Alexander 007 18:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I too have to disagree here. I've been clashing with him almost since I first entered in wikipedia, when he used the name Makedon45, and one thing cannot be put in doubt, the earnestness of his sentiments and idiosincracies. There is simply no doubt that he is Macedonian.--Aldux 18:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, fair enough. I just said that his work "reads as if...". So, after all he is north American and of Makedonce origine. Hello user:Macedonia, good to meet you my friend. - Politis 18:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Macedonians (Μακεδόνες) are the majority in Greek Macedonia

message: Macedonia naming dispute
General rule: the self-identifying names are used in all contexts with the exception of articles primarily relating to an entity recognizing it as something else.
Self-identifying names:
*Country: Republic of Macedonia
*People: Macedonians
*Language: Macedonian
Exonyms:
*Country: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (never FYROM except in a descriptive sense)
*People: to be determined
*Language: Macedonian Slavic
Notes:
The self-identifying names may be tweaked to avoid repetitions or for other stylic reasons. For example, the name Republic of Macedonia may need only be mentioned once and afterwards as Macedonia plain, or the Macedonian people or language may need to be disambiguated from the Ancient Macedonians in certain contexts (e.g. disambiguation notes) by adding Slavic, modern or ethnic.
Contexts where the exonyms are used:
*Only, the specifically recognized names are used (i.e. just because the EU recognizes a former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, that does not mean that they recognize the language as Macedonian Slavic).
*In practice, the language and people exonyms are only going to be used in Greece related articles.
*The state exonym may be used in EU, UN, NATO and states who have recognized the country as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia related articles.
Greek specific self-identifying names:
*Region: Greek Macedonia
*People: Macedonian Greeks (regional sense)
*Language: Macedonian Greek / Macedonian dialect of Greek
Exonyms:
*Region: Aegean Macedonia
*People: Greeks (this is not really the case, as they are both self-identifying names, but see below)
*Language: Greek (see below)
Notes:
*The term Macedonian Greeks should be presented to show that the term exists to denote a regional cultural characteristics and is not a separate ethnic group, therefore should be used when Macedonian Greeks need to be distinguished from other Greeks or when their regional characteristics or indigenous status to Macedonia need emphasizing.
*The terms referring to the Macedonian dialect of the Greek language are not in dispute and are only mentioned in the disambiguation page and in the list of Greek dialects articles.
*The self-identifying names are always to be used with the exception of Republic of Macedonia related articles.
IMPORTANT NOTE: the exonyms must be mentioned in the first paragraphs of the articles in question, e.g. Aegean Macedonia should be mentioned in the first paragraph of Macedonia (Greece) and former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia should be mentioned at the first paragraph of Republic of Macedonia in order to avoid confusion with the redirects. If someone follows the redirect Aegean Macedonia and ends up at Macedonia (Greece) and does not see the alternative name, he may get confused.
Personal opinion: in the article Republic of Macedonia, the naming dispute need only be discussed at the politics section and the alternative name be mentioned at the first paragraph. A separate naming dispute section is not required.
LionKing 21:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever. The problem I see, is which category does the article Macedonia (region) fall into? We could either only use exonyms (for eveyone) or only use self identifying names (for everyone) -- take your pick? --LionKing 21:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consolidated proposal 

message: Please leave comments here
Actually the term widely used by all sorts of scholars is "Greek Macedonians". That's the term that should be used in the article to describe the region's native Greeks. Miskin 21:48, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever. The problem I see, is which category does the article Macedonia (region) fall into? We could either only use exonyms (for eveyone) or only use self identifying names (for everyone) -- take your pick? --LionKing 21:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: As an experiment, I've unprotected the page. If it descends into chaos, ask me (or another admin...) to reprotect William M. Connolley 20:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  unprotected 

message: I am not proposing to change anything, just making an observation. The map by Panonian is a good idea but it does not corespond to what I know (ok, you say it reflects the sensus). There are concentrated Serbian populations around Lake Doiran and Helleno Vlachs in Bitola, and the Turks in the Derbar region, as far as I know, are in fact Albanians and Macedonian Slav muslims who declared themselves Turks in order to avoid Albanian interference. The best thing about the map, though, is that you have based it on the sensus (perhaps you also give a link for the census), well done for that, we need to rely on published facts not on estimations. Politis 15:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ethnic map

message: Hello guys :-) I wanted only to invite everybody, especially new editors, to always remember that when editing such an article as this caution is necessary much more than in a usual article; revert-wars appear to be the natural condition of this article. For this every single statement must be backed by solid independent sources. And coming to the sources, what do you think of this ? The texts seem good, all from eminent scholars.--Aldux 16:23, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Methodology

message: Aldux, your removal of the fact that the symbol is copyrighted reeks of double standards - everything in that section is covered at that article, why was just the sentence about the copyright removed? Telex 19:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that Avg's edit smacks of a provocation, and if there's a thing this article doesn't need, it's provocations. Also, it is hardly relevant: Greece claim to the symbol is something that transcends completely the WIPO. This is a question of cultural, not legal rights. --Aldux 20:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Without this edit, it is not apparent to the reader that Greece has a legal right onto this symbol. Legality does not "smack of a provocation". DENIAL of legality "smacks of a provocation".--   Avg    15:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vergina Sun copyright status