Talk:Carál Ní Chuilín

message: Carál Ní Chuilín is this person's legal name and she does not appear to use any other name. While one (markedly hostile) source is given for the suggestion that she was known in the 1980s as "plain old Carol Cullen", that is only an anglicised version of Carál Ní Chuilín. The specific right to use personal names and surnames in the Irish form is recognised in Northern Ireland as a human right under two treaties to which the UK is party, and the lede wording should not (at least, without strong sources) suggest that the real name is a changed name. "(b. Carol Cullen)" (=born as Carol Cullen) seems to deny that Carál Ní Chuilín was this person's name at birth, which, using the Irish form that she prefers, it would have been. "Formerly known as" avoids that issue. Brocach (talk) 14:16, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Carál" a gaelicised version of "Carol" and not the other way round? — Jon C.ॐ 15:01, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to imagine that you could be wrong, Jon, but I believe it's come to both Irish and English from the Old German. Brocach (talk) 23:30, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: A feminine form of "Charles", according to Caroline (given name). Anyhow, the current wording ("formerly called") seems to imply that she changed her name even more than the "b." did – "formerly known as"? Makes it sound like she did it by deed poll – but I'm not too fussed. Adieu. — Jon C.ॐ 07:43, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now idea when or how she used one form or the other, but as a matter of law, there is no requirement for a deed poll or other formal procedure; the name that a person routinely uses is, in law, their name. All that the single source for the other form states is that she was known as Carol Cullen in the 1980s. The article can note that without leaping to the assumption that she was born with a name other than Carál Ní Chuilín. Brocach (talk) 13:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Considering IRA membership was proven in a court of law. Is there any subsequent information that proves she is no longer a member? Fletcherchristian101 (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The IRA is disbanded (Brendan O'Leary - A Treatise on Northern Ireland, Volume I: Colonialism, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0199243341, page xxiv). FDW777 (talk) 13:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: Then if the British government is so convinced then they can prosecute anyone they say was still in the IRA after they had previously been imprisoned for the same offence, since continued membership would still be a crime in their jurisdiction. Until then WP:BLPCRIME says they are innocent until proven guilty, and I suggest you check when O'Leary's book was published. FDW777 (talk) 14:21, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: I suggest you contact Brendan O'Leary and ask him to publish a retraction. Your interpretation of policy is incorrect, as is your assertion that the IRA no longer existing is not an argument that can be used with regards to membership. It is not possible to be a member of something that no longer exists. FDW777 (talk) 14:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: If you have any references that state, as of right now 24 November 2020, the IRA still exists and Carál Ní Chuilín is a member, then we can discuss. Do you have them? FDW777 (talk) 15:24, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: I refer you to the part of my sentence after the word "and". FDW777 (talk) 15:47, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: No, it's an acknowledgement that tweets by the Taoiseach are completely irrelevant as to whether a WP:BLPCRIME violating change should be made to this article. FDW777 (talk) 16:20, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: She was a member, she was convicted, she went to prison. Per WP:BLPCRIME, it's impossible to describe her as being currently a member as that's saying she's continuing to commit a criminal offence. That's before we even get to the fact that the IRA doesn't exist any more. FDW777 (talk) 16:39, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: Per WP:BLPCRIME, you cannot describe her as currently being a member, as that accuses her of a current criminal offence of which she has not been convicted. FDW777 (talk) 16:58, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: I see by your comments there you didn't bother to check the publication date of O'Leary's book. So I'll tell you, it's 2019. He's more than aware of government reports from 2015, yet he still says the IRA are disbanded. And if you want to even think about challenging his credibility, I suggest not wasting your time. As for whatever people said in early 2020, if you bother to check the references they are talking about the supposed continued existence of the Army Council. Not the IRA. And you have zero references saying Carál Ní Chuilín is even in the IRA at the time of writing. And even if you somehow manage to navigate all those problems, there's still WP:BLPCRIME which says in no uncertain terms can you say a living person is currently committing a crime they haven't been convicted of. FDW777 (talk) 17:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: , so stop assuming Carál Ní Chuilín is still in the IRA. FDW777 (talk) 17:24, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: Yes you are. She was convicted, and served a prison sentence. You are claiming that since that prison sentence she committed the offence again, all without references. Should you reply again without references that unequivocally state Carál Ní Chuilín is currently an IRA member I will not be replying, and should you continue down this path I will be asking for sanctions to be applied. FDW777 (talk) 17:41, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

text: It is indisputably a violation of BLP policy to say in Wikipedia's voice that a person is currently a member of a criminal organization, without an impeccable and recent reliable source confirming that she is still a member . Debating whether or not the PIRA or the IRA Army Council still exist is entirely secondary. What is absolutely essential is the presence or absence of reliable sources stating whether or not Carál Ní Chuilín specifically is an active PIRA member since the decommissioning in 2005. Without such coverage in reliable sources, it is a serious violation of BLP policy to include that content. , you were confused about whether or not another editor was an administrator. Let me confirm to you that I am an administrator here for the purpose of enforcing BLP policy. As a side note, the resemblance between her birth name and my username is a coincidence. I have no connection with her or with Irish politics. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Former IRA member