Talk:HIV/AIDS/Archive 13

message: I think this article honestly presents the facts in an unbiased way:
"An ideal surrogate marker still does not exist for HIV/AIDS. In fact, after two decades of looking, only two assays, CD4+ T-lymphocyte count and HIV RNA viral load, have been widely adopted as imperfect surrogates for monitoring and predicting the course of disease in people with HIV. These markers have been fairly well correlated with the natural history of HIV infection and progression to AIDS, but each has limitations." 
A more recent article, July 2005, is suprisingly frank about the fact that "we honestly don't know when and how to best treat HIV infection." 
It is not the task of Wikipedia editors to create certanty where none exists! Sci guy 16:10, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surrogate markers 

message: I am attempting to include qualifying language in the lead to improve the presumptive verb "is." The language I introduced is in no way "POV" unless having one's eyes open to recognize that other views exist comprises a point of view. The qualification and scope of those scientists who continue to ask questions about this syndrome are widely known and are well documented in Wikipedia, regardless persistant efforts to exclude research that does not support the government-approved point of view concerning this recent science. Sandlawould 20:50, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  accuracy 

message: If the article is written with attribution to the sources, there can be little controversy. Wikipedia is not an authority on micribiology, but the WHO and NIH are. If the article cites those groups as the authors of the findings explained in the article, there is little room for controversy. There is little debate about whether WHO and NIH concluded certian things, and whatever debate has arisen about the content of their findings can also be reported encylopedically, without relying on loaded POV language such as "denialist" and "propaganda". I'm attempting to merge the better lead of July 28 with the meaningul edits that were contributed since then, as well as improving attribution at the top so as to avoid controversy. Albaco 06:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary, HIV causes AIDS not because WHO and NIH says so, but because it is so. There's no reputable debate about that fact outside a small community of denialists with an active Internet contingent with an unlimited supply of sockpuppets who seem intent on inserting disinformation into the article. The lead of July 28 is not better: the lede, for example, sucks. You don't need to cram every synonym into the first sentence. - Nunh-huh 06:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: on attribution

message: Is there any particular reason why the references are archived at a Talk page? Wouldn't AIDS/references be more appropriate? - Jakew 13:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Sci guy 15:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: These should be on the page, not in an archive somewhere. --Bob 23:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: An anonymous editor removed the very brief "Alternative theories" section, with the following edit summary: "there are also people who believe that Abe Lincoln was a space alien, we don't list them in his article". I restored the section, which merely indicated the existence of the AIDS reappraisal article. I don't personally believe any of the theories described in that article, but they have been the subject of highly publicized international debate (which, unless I've missed something, the alien-Lincoln theories have not) and certainly deserve to be at least mentioned. There are plenty of analogous examples elsewhere in WP; for instance, it would be very odd if the article on Haile Selassie did not mention the Rastafari movement. ←Hob 04:29, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
:should be there, even if their theories hold water like a teabag --Bob 23:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappropriate removal of section 

message: 81.105.168.248 removed the following: A major setback in the search for a cure is that the origin of the hiv virus (patient zero) has not yet been found, saying Deleted implication that more knowledge of "patient zero" could lead to medical breakthough (unscientific, USA-centric). I don't see at all how that is USA-centric (I'm not from the US by the way). I'm no expert on this, but I believe that knowing patient zero (and thus the origin of the disease) is very important for finding a cure. And I added the line because I heard that said specifically about this in a tv documentary. Anticipating a possible confusion, by 'patient zero' I don't mean 'patient O'. See the first two lines of Patient_zero#The_patient_zero_of_AIDS. DirkvdM 07:50, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to be harsh, but: if you hear something on TV, but you don't understand it well enough to explain it beyond "I believe it's true", then don't add it to the article. After nearly three decades of AIDS research, increasingly focused on molecular biology, why would anyone think that epidemiological history is anywhere near the most important thing to look at? There's probably more agreement on the modes of transmission, and the ways AIDS has spread through different populations, than on anything else; long before anyone knew anything about HIV, it was clear that it was a blood-borne disease that would spread more or less the same as hepatitis B, which is why the delay in screening blood transfusions was so inexcusable. And the prevailing theory of the disease's travels has it coming out of Africa not once, but many times - so any reference to "patient zero" is meaningless unless you choose to focus on the U.S., Europe, Asia, or wherever. Not to mention that when you say "patient zero" in the context of AIDS with no further explanation, absolutely everyone will think of Gaetan Dugas. ←Hob 16:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Have to agree with Hob here, for the reasons stated. --Bob 17:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I think the current view is that patient zero was a chimpanzee  - but the major setback in the search for a cure is that the HIV virus has proved difficult to obtain in pure form. Sci guy 14:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Reference for that last statement, please? I follow AIDS research fairly closely and I can't think what you mean by "pure form". ←Hob 23:06, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patient zero 

message: I've added these back to the article, it is important to keep references as clear and visible as possible. Having AIDS/references also runs counter to Wikipedia:Do not use subpages. I do doubt that all of the current references are actually used by this article. Someone should go through  the list and move some of the sources to spin off pages. - SimonP 02:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding 10k of references to an already too lonng article is not helpful - especially as you doubt that all of the current references are actually used by this article Sci guy 03:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: I have a question - In conjuction with typical treatments that knock down the viral load, why have researchers not experimented with some kind of T-cell transplantation? (e.g., through blood or blood serum transfusions). Hemophiliacs in dire situations can go through mass-transfusions where their blood volume is relaced 2 or 3 times in the span of a few hours. Would it not be possible to do something similiar with an AIDS patient? Could this not considerably restore a low T-cell count and lower the viral load? →Raul654 06:37, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's kind of like running water into a sink with no plug. It ain't staying around for long. :-/ ..... JoeSmack (talk) 13:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: HIV is present in interstitutal fluids besides blood (such as saliva and semen) so clearly replacing the body's blood volume isn't a cure, but I don't see why this wouldn't be an effective treatment. →Raul654 18:02, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It also has it's grips on the lymphatic system and the brain (as it crosses the blood/brain barrier).  Once lots of the latent infected cells have been activated, it can act/spread quite fast.  It is not a viable solution at this time.  Also I imagine replacing millions of pints of blood a week would drain blood banks in no time...... JoeSmack (talk) 15:35, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the HIV load in the body exists as DNA inserted into the chromosomes of resting CD4+ lymphocytes. Viral load is measured in the blood because blood is easily accessible, but it's a bit like measuring the capacity of a bathtub by measuring the spillage when you step into it. The average virion "lives" less than one day, and the average replication cycle is about three days. You're not going to do any good by an exchange transfusion, and if your goal is reducing viral load, medication already does this more effectively, throughout the body rather than simply in the blood, and with considerably less mess. - Nunh-huh 00:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Also, a big problem: getting large quantities of white blood cells from another person may kill you. You can safely transfuse red blood cells mostly because they carry no genetic information; blood types are based on surface antigens produced by a small number of genes that don't otherwise affect the function of the cell, and mature red cells have no nucleus and don't do anything except carry oxygen. But the main function of white cells, particularly T cells, is to attack any tissue that's not genetically similar to themselves—which can include the transfusion recipient. So blood transfusions are normally filtered to include mostly red cells (or plasma or platelets, whatever's required), and bone-marrow transplants have T cells removed to prevent graft-versus-host disease. You would have to do something more sophisticated to produce immature T cells that could adapt to the host; we don't know how yet. ←Hob 00:12, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Blood transfusions as a treatment for AIDS?