Talk:White horse

message: Material here was moved from the Gray (horse) article.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 22:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Attribution

message: If anyone has a photo of a truly white horse--i.e. not a gray with a white hair coat--feel free to post here.  One is needed.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 22:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: req Photo (2006)

message: Corrected the genetic expectations of white x colored in two spots, from 25% to 50%.
Statistically, a white horse (Ww) bred to a horse of another color will simply produce white offspring about 50% of the time, 
    * Color Stallion X White Mare (or vice versa): 50% of foals will be white, 50% will be colored
As shown by the Punnett square in the section, white (Ww) x colored (ww) gives you 50% (two squares) Ww (white) and 50% (two squares) ww (colored).
66.107.12.18 13:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics of White Horses 

message: Totally agree that they are extremely rare. My grandfather always told me, there are very few white horses.   Culnacreann 17:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the popularity in the USA for various unusual colors makes them a bit more common in the USA than Europe, but they are still pretty rare here.  Be interesting to see how the "is there really a W gene" issue shakes out--one school of thought says all "white" horses are actually maximally-expressed sabinos.  I can't say I agree, but fascinating concept--pintos of various sorts more popular in the USA than in Europe, I think.  Important either way for white horse coloring to be in a separate article from the Gray horse one, especially given the way people get all mystical about white coloring in any animal... :-)  Montanabw 19:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Very Rare

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Added rationale to article and image page.  Hope this does the trick.  Montanabw(talk) 20:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Lone Ranger and Silver (3).jpg

message: Moved here from the White Horse (disambiguation) talkpage. Is it worth creating a "WH in culture" section? 
* A white horse is depicted as the loyal mount of Prince Charming in fairy tale literature
* In Christian tradition, a white horse is ridden by one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
* The white wind-blown caps of sea waves are often described as white horses, for example in the Beaufort scale windforce 5 is described as "Moderate waves, many white horses".
*The heraldic signs of both Kent and the House of Hanover contain a white horse
*Referenced in Blind Lemon Jefferson's song See That My Grave Is Kept Clean recorded in 1928. The precursor to references by both Bob Dylan in his version of the song of the same name and also Beck's.  "I got two white horses following me, Waiting on my burying ground."
*Referenced in Beck's song Farewell Ride.  "Two white horses in a line, carrying me to my burying ground."
*Referenced in Jeff Buckley's song Mojo Pin.  "I'm blind and tortured, the white horses flow."
*Tori Amos makes references to White Horses in two songs. The first one is on "Winter": ""All the white horses are still in bed/All the white horses have gone ahead" and the second one, in the song Horses. "The record (Boys For Pele) begins with the white horses from Winter coming back to take me on this journey and we ride and go find the demons..." -- Tori; Making Music, Jan 1996
BrainyBabe (talk) 19:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OH GOD NOOOOOOOO! See WP:DISAMBIGUATION.  Sorry to overreach  These damn "popular culture" things can grow to eat the whole article.  This is precisely what disambiguation pages are for!  And wikipedia discourages 'lists' in articles when possible. People can link to this article in their respective articles if they want to, but not the other way around.  Montanabw(talk) 23:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: None of these are named white horses.  I will reinstate the use of the term for certain waves on the dab.  The passing references in songs etc. are trivial, but someone or ones thought them worth the time to add, which is why I haven't deleted, but moved here. It would be good to have an article about Knight on a white horse, the proverbial rescuer.  The heraldry example already exists at dab more precisely. BrainyBabe (talk) 06:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it isn't the naming problem.  It's the "popular culture/trivia" problem.  Wikipedia in general frowns on lists and excessive trivia sections in articles, and while occasionally a trivia section is interesting if it can be limited to just a few quirky tidbits that are humorous or interesting, for "white horse" such a list can grow beyond belief until we have every song, movie, TV show, anime cartoon and god knows what -- at most, there is an argument to be made for a "white horse in myth" section that summarizes some of the major beliefs from antiquity, but that would be, IMHO, all we'd want.  A trivia section would eat this article, I fear.  Best to not even start one!   Montanabw(talk) 03:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  popular culture 

message: The sentence in this article which argues for a distinction between "sabino-white" and "dominant white" is pretty misleading. I checked out the Bailey article, which led me to Mau's article Genetic mapping of dominant white (W), a homozygous lethal condition in the horse (Equus caballus). This study precedes Allelic heterogeneity and maps the pattern found in Franches Montagnes horses (descended from a white mare (presumably solid though there's no way to know if she was utterly devoid of pigment) named Cigale, who was born of 2 non-white parents). Of course the photos of the Franches Montagnes horses are available from Allelic heterogeneity and feature horses largely white that "roan out" further with age (despite not being gray). Please also note this quote from Mau's abstract: "It seems, that the action of the dominant white allele is not always fully penetrant, resulting occasionally in spotted look alike offspring. These horses resemble a coat colour pattern known as sabino spotting. So far, it is not known whether dominant white (W) and sabino spotting (S) share a common genetic background." This study mapped the W gene to chromosome 3; Allelic heterogeneity furthered this research and isolated what has been referred to as W to the KIT gene, and then described different polymorphisms along KIT for Franches-Montagnes white, and other white families.
MontanaBW and I have discussed this at length in the past, but until I put these pieces together I couldn't make the claim I do now: The W allele which has been discussed in several coat color genetics texts and the UC Davis site refers to a dominantly-inherited condition among descendants of a Franches-Montagnes mare named Cigale (b. 1950's). Horses with Cigale's "white" gene are not necessarily fully white, and many get whiter with age. Other white horses popped up in a manner similar to Cigale: from two non-white parents. This has occurred in horses known for and even selected for modest markings: Arabians and Thoroughbreds. These two breeds also represent the most stringent of pedigree requirements and parentage proof. The search for a single gene responsible for Cigale's white and the white of various Arabian and TB families instead turned up a NUMBER of polymorphisms on the KIT gene in chromosome 3, where several white patterns have been identified (tobiano, roan, Sabino1).
In the future, I or someone else will have to modify this article. This article must either refer to Cigale's form of dominant white, which is presumed to be HZ lethal and does not always result in a fully-white coat, or it must refer to all forms of dominantly-inherited white. My point is, there is NO gene which is dominant, HZ lethal, and always produces a fully-white coat.
Countercanter (talk) 21:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And for anyone else who is interested, I'm OK with Countercanter's assessment, and favor an article covering all forms of "white" that are not gray. Just be clear that at present Sabino and "dominant white" (whatever it actually is) aren't considered the same thing.  If you read some of the non-scientific links in the existing article, there are sites that claim all white horses are sabino -- probably with the political agenda of denying that there is no such thing as lethal white. There was actually an edit war over this a year or two ago.   That one white Arabian and his offspring are advertised as "Sabino," by the way... no clue what the truth is. (Hiding a lethal form or the first Arab with SB-1??)  But anyway, my axe to grind in all of this is to be sure that the article neither "whitewashs" the legitimate problem of lethality connected to at least some kinds of white coloration, but also not to unnecessarily tar non-lethal forms of white coloring if there is no link (as appears to be the case with sabino genetics).  Beyond that, if it's sourced and reflects the best current scientific research, I'm all for it!  Montanabw(talk) 23:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misinterpretation of Mau & Bailey's works 

message: This article provides an accessible synopsis of the results and impact of 
Bianca Haase, Samantha A. Brooks, Teruaki Tozaki, Dominik Burger, Pierre-André
Poncet, Stefan Rieder, Telhisa Hasegawa, Cecilia Penedo, Tosso Leeb. Seven novel KIT mutations in horses with white coat colour phenotypes. Wiley InterScience Animal Genetics, May 2009. 
The pdf did make my browser unhappy once or twice so take care opening it. This is all very substantial and I just wanted to make it available before I start...slicing. Countercanter (talk) 21:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It downloaded OK for me.  Looks good.  Cite carefully, but I agree it's a very, very nice synopsis.  Montanabw(talk) 22:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics updates 

message: There is a nice photo at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Yukichan_20080427P2.jpg Cgoodwin (talk) 23:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nice photo

message: What is the future for this article? It might be a useful gateway, and could be re-written to be less about dominant white, which now has its own article, and more about white horses in culture, and other types of white and "white" horses. It might also include some information on white markings and patterns. Just thoughts. Countercanter (talk) 13:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The "gateway" concept is a good one, short sections on all the whites and white mimics would work well (and may allow us to merge or shorten the discussion of cremello, etc., in the dominant white article if it's put here with a "main" link).  I want to be real cautious about markings for now, lest we confuse every basic horse book on the planet and half the breed registries!  LOL!  Remember, even if you are right, going too far in synthesis of research can run us afoul of WP:NOR.  If you want to tweak, tweak.  Or I can, as time permits  :-P  Montanabw(talk) 03:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The future 

message: When describing the sabino gene this article talks about spotting ; I have to point out that to a British (and I think European ) reader the word spot is utterly and entirely different to the American interpretation and the use of the word spot in this instance will create a great deal of confusion in European readers. I presume this may also occur in articles about skewbald and piebald horses if those articles were written by an American. To a European the word spot means something  small and round - essentially the size and shape of a coin - whereas the markings described in this article as spots are to the European known as patches and would never ever be described as spots. Whilst I myself know what is meant because I know what a sabino looks like, I think many readers will be mislead by the use of the word spot; I think this use of the word needs to be reviewed where it causes confusion.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pandderian (talk • contribs) 14:34, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sabinos are not necessarily pintos, often they are simply horses with very bold white, often flecked on the edges.  I'm not sure I agree with you, but am open to further discussion.  Maybe look at Sabino horse and pinto horse to see if we can clarify matters. This article probably could also use to be updated with info from dominant white, but that's another job... Montanabw(talk) 00:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Monty dear, about the terminology thing? Pandderian is pointing out "spot" means small round spots (think Appie rears) in BrE and that the fact might be very confusing for a Br reader who sees the word used for any spotting/pied pattern between Lp and Frame. Pitke (talk) 15:28, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Pitke, dahling, that makes some sense, if we need to distinguish between "patches" and "spots" I'm willing to work on clarifying terms...feel free to make some tweaks if you want.  But here, we'd never say "pied," at least, not in the last century or so... Montanabw(talk) 21:07, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spots 

message: In the 70s I often saw articles in the Western Horseman (October, I believe, always a breed issue) on a breed called the American Albino. They were all supposed to be horses with the dominant White gene, but the article said they had dark skin and eyes. Perhaps it was a misprint and it was only the eyes that were sometimes dark. (Or perhaps I remembered wrong- it's been so long ago.) I have a white horse with dark skin. He's not a gray, although he may have the gray gene. He was buckskin as a 3-year old- at least 6 different people have attested to this. (He's a pony on the racetrack, so hundreds of people have seen him). I've been told that his owner clipped him for the winter and he was white underneath- and never regained his coloring. He's half-Percheron, half QH. With the Percheron blood, I suspect he does have the gray gene, and must have the dilution gene from his QH side. His mane and tail have a very slight yellowish tint- but there are no dark hairs on his body at all- as are usual on most gray horses. 
[[
thumbnail|Another shot of Angel
]]
This is my first try at adding photos- we'll see if I'm successful. Any thoughts on his genetics?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Equusma (talk • contribs) 18:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  American Albino 

message: In your edit here you replace a hatnote "For other uses, see White horse (disambiguation)." with a hatnote "This article is about visually white horses. For the dominant white gene, see Dominant white. For Sabino-white, see Sabino horse. For gray horses with white hair coats, see Gray (horse). For other uses, see White horse.". Your hatnote is not compliant with Wikipedia policy at WP:HATNOTE and in particular WP:LEGITHAT. Despite "popular misconceptions" (your phrase from the edit summary),  " the information belongs in the body of the article, ... . Hatnotes are meant to reduce confusion and direct readers to another article they might have been looking for, not for information about the subject of the article itself."  All 3 of the terms in your hatnote are the titles of sections in the actual article, all of which have section hatnotes pointing a main article in that subject.  Please revert your edit. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that my core concerns are addressed in the parallel discussion taking place at Talk:White horse.  So I think we can consolidate the discussion and resolve both issues there.  Montanabw(talk) 04:07, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hatnotes 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:White horse (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 12:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: Hello. Sorry for my poor English.
What is the name of the horse in :File:DominantWhiteHorsesD.jpg?
* This horse is a stallion that has the W2 gene.
* This photo was taken before 2007.
For these reasons, I suspect this horse is The White Fox (2002-2010)   . But the name is not specified, so please let me know.--霧木諒二 (talk) 13:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The photo source is Haase B, Brooks SA, Schlumbaum A, Azor PJ, Bailey E, et al. (2007) Allelic heterogeneity at the equine KIT locus in dominant white (W) horses. PLoS Genet 3(11): e195. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0030195. We can only state what they have in that article. You might be right, but unless we have an additional WP:RS that has a photo of the horse with his name (pedigree query is not considered reliable because anyone can edit, just like WP can’t be used as a source for itself…) we can’t guess per WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH. Montanabw(talk) 17:37, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the name of the horse in [[:File:DominantWhiteHorsesD.jpg]]?