Talk:Dyscalculia

message: Dyscalculia and acalculia is NOT the same thing. Dyscalculia is like dyslexia - there are ways to learn - while acalculia is caused by serious brain damage like in a car accident. Mette Christoffersen, Feb. 4, 2006.
I disagree with this statement.  Neurological terms that use the prefix "a" imply a complete loss of or lack of a cognitive skill or behavior, whereas "dys" refers to an impairment in the subsumed area.  Another distinction that has often been claimed is that the disorders which use "a" are generally acquired (e.g., stroke or head injury) whereas those termed "dys" are developmental in nature (i.e., the result of improper neurocognitive development).  In point of fact, however, there are virtually no cases of complete loss or absence of cognitive functions as a consequence of brain damage.  Therefore, the nosology that uses the "dys" pronoun is to be preferred in my opinion.  (By the way, I am a cognitive neuropsychologist by profession and have written extensively on dyscalculia).  
With respect to dyscalculia, there is a large literature on such patients, and the distinction between acalculics and dyscalculics is not consistent or frankly all that useful.
*I have removed the wikilink to acalculia, as it was a circular redirect.  If acalculia is not the same as dyscalculia, why would a link for the former redirect to the latter?  Makes little sense to me.  BobbyLee 18:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dyscalculia / Acalculia

message: Is this word another of those mixtures of Latin and Greek? Michael Hardy 03:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't appear so:
*Dys-
*calculate
*-ia
Semiconscious • talk 08:03, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: "Math-phobia" links to this page, what's it called, as a synonym. So the article about math phobia is automatically the article about dyscalculia. Although many dyscalculics are phobic of math, you can EASILY have math phobia without being dyscalculic. It is wrong to think that the term math phobia should be linked to an article about dyscalculia - especially because it gives the impression that dyscalculia is just "made up", and all you have to do to "overcome" it is to get rid of the fear. Would you say that a DYSLEXIC only had to overcome the fear to learn how to spell? I don't hope so.
Please fix this. Please. :) --Ellyodd 14:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen this in a lot of articles, and it's not meant to imply that the terms are synonyms.  Generally speaking this sort of thing is done because there is no separate article on the subject (math phobia), other than the small amount of information on it in this one (which isn't enough to be a separate page at this time).  When a separate page is made, it will no longer be a redirect.  69.85.181.195 01:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Math Phobia 

message: "Critics of standards-based mathematics reform such as Mathematically Correct have proposed that replacement of direct-instruction of efficient arithmetic methods with discovery learning, and replacing instruction time and textbook space that was once devoted to instruction and practice with activity-based learning with a large proportion of non-mathematics related content has produced many students who cannot compute. Counting and using manipulatives rather than using efficient algorithms is central point of emphasis for standards based instruction. Some texts such as TERC in their initial editions complete omit instruction of any standard arithmetic method in favor of drawing tally marks, circling groups, and coloring, and devote class time and homework to singing songs such as Happy Birthday and playing card games."
i'm not sure the above paragraph belongs -- it seems to refer to something totally different from a disorder, rather, that many schools don't teach math efficiently.  whereas my understanding of dyscalulia is that it has to do more with the individual's innate ability to compute and/or relate to spatial concepts like left/right, north/south, etc. than whether and how well one has been taught arithmetic.  just as dyslexia has nothing to do with how well one has been taught to read, but the student's innate inability to parse written language.  looking back at my elementary school experience, i know we spent plenty of time doing math-related schoolwork.  but i also know i was the last in my class to memorize math facts, still can't tell left from right or read an analog clock, and always have to think long and hard about very simple things like calculating a 20% tip.  Geeksquad 3.10.07
:if it will help I can probably track down a referenced source. Critics of standards-based math say that it's difficult to tell if the reason students can't calculate is because of an innate inability or simply because they have been taught methods prone to producing some of the listed symptoms, such as counting rather than using arithmetic or using complex strategies rather than standard efficient methods. approaches taken by many textbooks do not teach any traditional methods, and spend a lot of time showing students how do do things like using the plus key to divide 300 by 6 using skip counting, or drawing tallies and circling groups. --Merceris 01:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Omit 

message: The article says that
:«Researchers now sometimes use the terms “math dyslexia”.»
This is very dubious and may cause confusion. To cite https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/childhood-adhd/dyscalculia-facts:
:«Research suggests it's as common as dyslexia -- a reading disorder -- but not as well understood. In fact, kids and parents sometimes call it “math dyslexia,” but this can be confusing because dyscalculia is a completely different condition. Your school or doctor may call it a “mathematics learning disability” or a “math disorder.”»
I would rather write that, although it may be referred to as "math dyslaxia" by some people, this use is improper and confusing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.197.233.33 (talk) 01:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synonym 

message: Come to Thailand. Try to ask anyone about numbers, digits, or whatever is related to numerics. What is 11+10? -Uh. --media_lib (talk) 15:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Live Sources 

message: This article claims that dyscalculia is the inability to learn or comprehend mathematics, where sources such as  claim that, among some other symptoms relating to working memory, left from right, and time, that dyscalculia is the inability to perform mental calculations.  While mathematics sometimes uses numbers because they have some nice properties, mathematics is not about complicated computations, but logical thinking (see Mathematics, esp. under "Fields").  Higher-level mathematics tends to not even use numbers if it can be helped.  While I can see dyslexia inhibiting being able to handle symbol manipulations, I cannot see being unable to calculate being much trouble.
Basically, this article is a mess in that it uses the word "mathematics" for both arithmetic (the techniques of calculation) and mathematics (the abstract science of quantity, space, and structure), causing confusion and false inferences (that the inability to do arithmetic means that there's a similar inability to do abstract mathematics).  The symptom "May do fairly well in subjects such as science and geometry, which require logic rather than formulae, until a higher level requiring calculations is obtained," while barely making sense (higher levels aren't obtained, but perhaps attained), presumes high-level math is about performing calculations.
Perhaps the literature is a mess, too.  I don't know how Wikipedia is supposed to be consistent with inconsistencies in literature, but this article could use some help. 75.73.179.58 (talk) 08:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failure in differentiating arithmetic and mathematics 

message: As someone who is disabled (admitedly not with discalculia), I find the sentence
The condition need not be seen as a disability, there is nothing preventing people who suffer from dyscalculia from succeeding in other academic fields such as history, geography and other social sciences, or in artistic fields such as music or drama.
rather inappropriate. "It's not a disability because you can do other stuff" seems akin to "Blindness isn't a disability because you can still hear". I'm of the opinion that sentence should be removed or altered. Whether you're going with the medical model of disability (You have an impairment that makes you less able to do certain things), or the social model (you are less able to do certain things due to society not being sufficiently adapted to how you are), someone with dyscalculia is disabled regardless of any ability to do something else. 81.152.250.97 (talk) 19:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely. This needs to be changed for the reasons listed above, not to mention the fact that people with dyscalculia sometimes go on to scientific fields requiring math. --seberle (talk) 15:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

text: You're talking nonsense. Just as blind people do NOT have more acute senses to "make up for their blindness" (silly popular myth, disproven time and time again yet people refuse to give it up because they desperately need to believe that everyone is of equal capability and if they lack in one area, surely they must be making up for it somewhere else), people with dyscalculia do NOT have to be gifted in other areas just because they suck at math. The brain has no drive to compensate for missing functions, I assure you. People with dyscalculia are statistically no less likely to be dyslexic, for example, than people without dyscalculia. Nor are they more likely to be gifted in any other given way. A disability is a disability, and a horse is a horse, of course, of course. Deal. Succubus MacAstaroth (talk) 16:43, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the brain can but not always can make up for lack of skills in some areas.  It is called Neuroplasticity.  Some people do seem to be capable of developing secondary skill traits, as they may use them subconsciously (which wires their brain) to begin with.  It is true that not all people with dyscalulia are excellent artists and journalists but it makes sense that there is statistically more if there is a trend.  For example, a dyscalculia person who likes science may not find an actual career in science very easy, but they may choose to write science fiction or journalism on the subject.  I also read that while certain regions (for arithmetic) have deficits, other regions may actually do better in some skills due to the overall condition.  I guess those skills will differs person to person.  --Wormulon (talk) 20:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "...need not be seen as a disability" 

message: While understanding maths inabilities better is important, I find this whole article quite dubious. The potential symptoms listed are a mixture of sensible, dubious, and nonsensical ones. Some are clearly related to specific problems with numbers, but others are not - unless a reliable source can be found stating that they correlate to such problems. The statement that about 5% may suffer from dyscalculia is vacuous in absense of a clearer definition. Accurate sourcing of each statement is necessary!--Nø (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right. Unlike dyslexia, dyscalculia is controversial, even as to its existence, and has not been as thoroughly studied. There have been some studies, however, and the article should draw from those. Please feel free to add "citation needed" tags where needed. This article needs work. --seberle (talk) 15:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Even dyslexia itself is controversial, as stated in its own article. 201.231.81.53 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 03:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious 

message: Could someone please explain how to pronounce "dis-cal-qu-lee-ah" (preferably in IPA)? Thanks. --seberle (talk) 20:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: The list of symptoms is rather odd. I think nearly all should be deleted, and then re-added only when each "symptom" is sourced. Some of the alleged symptoms may correlate with dyscalculia, but how can something unrelated to numbers, maths and calculations be a "symptom" of dyscalculia?--Nø (talk) 18:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree completely. I have added a citation tag, but I would agree to deleting the entire symptom list. What is needed is a coherent description with references, preferably in paragraph form. The last addition is downright silly. I'm not sure what the standard waiting time is for someone to add references before deleting, but I would recommend deleting this section very, very soon. --seberle (talk) 14:43, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure I understand the preceding anonymous comment. The article would support (not contradict) this person's position. --seberle (talk) 20:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Symptoms 

message: 64.134.170.135 (talk) 15:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  long term projections 

message: I was expecting the article to talk about something on the lines of "Dyscalculia is caused by the lack of neuron activity in the prefrontal lobe of the left hemisphere of the brain" (I don't know, I made that up). But I expected something like that in the "causes" section, but there was rarely any information. Like another person said, it's dubious and vague.
P.S. someone should REALLY put a tag on this article saying "too vague" or "badly written article", as this article deserves it. NeonHD (talk) 02:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article does not give scientifical insight 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'd like to propose a change to the introductory section of this article. I'd rather propose the change here than make the edits directly, since the changes are possibly substantive, and I don't have access to all the references that are cited in order to verify all the changes.
=== Sources ===
Does anyone have access to a more authoritative reference such as the DSM-5? Dyscalculia does appear in the DSM-5 (according to a Google Book search), and that seems to be a more appropriate source than the general English language dictionaries that are currently cited for the first sentence of the intro. For example, see the English Wikipedia content guidelines on reliable sources for medical claims.
=== Awkward sentence ===
The intro indicates that "Dyscalculia does not reflect a general deficit in cognitive abilities, nor do difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning." As currently worded, I interpret this to have a meaning that is likely different than the intended meaning.
According to the current wording, the meaning is that "Dyscalculia does not reflect a general deficit in cognitive abilities. Difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning do not reflect a general deficit in cognitive abilities either." 
The purpose of the second assertion is unclear, since the connection between Dyscalculia and the cited difficulties is not established in the preceeding sentences. According to the body of the article, these symptoms are associated with dyscalculia. Even after that is established, the second assertion doesn't seem to fit the article (the subject is Dyscalculia, not these particular three difficulties in isolation), and I'm not sure if it's supported by the references. One of them doesn't seem to mention the telling of time, for example, and I couldn't access the other since it's behind a paywall.
Perhaps the difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning could be incorporated into the first paragraph as follows (changes are indicated by bold text or strikethrough text): 
Dyscalculia (/ˌdɪskælˈkjuːliə/)[1][2][3][4] is a disability resulting in difficulty learning or comprehending arithmetic, such as difficulty in understanding numbers, learning how to manipulate numbers, performing arithmetical calculations and learning arithmetical facts. Other symptoms include difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning. Discalculia is sometimes informally known as "math dyslexia", though this can be misleading as dyslexia is a different condition from dyscalculia.[5]
Then the sentence in question could simply read "Dyscalculia does not reflect a general deficit in cognitive abilities, nor do difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning.
Notes:
#I eliminated "learning how to manipulate numbers," since it's somewhat vague and does not appear to be directly supported by the cited references (at least not any manipulations beyond arithmetical calculations, which are already mentioned).
# I changed "mathematical calculations" to "arithmetical calculations" since mathematical calculations are far more general than arithmetical calculations (for example, in algebraic topology, we can calculate homotopy groups).
# I changed "facts in mathematics" to "arithmetical facts" for similar reasons. I think the term "math facts" is used in math education circles to refer to  certain sums and products in arithmetic, but "arithmetical facts" is less ambiguous.
If anyone has any thoughts about the DSM-5 or about my proposed changes, that would be great!
--Greg at Higher Math Help (talk) 10:33, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed changes to intro 

message: The intro indicates that "Dyscalculia does not reflect a general deficit in cognitive abilities, nor do difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning." As currently worded, I interpret this to have a meaning that is likely different than the intended meaning.
According to the current wording, the meaning is that "Dyscalculia does not reflect a general deficit in cognitive abilities. Difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning do not reflect a general deficit in cognitive abilities either." 
The purpose of the second assertion is unclear, since the connection between Dyscalculia and the cited difficulties is not established in the preceeding sentences. According to the body of the article, these symptoms are associated with dyscalculia. Even after that is established, the second assertion doesn't seem to fit the article (the subject is Dyscalculia, not these particular three difficulties in isolation), and I'm not sure if it's supported by the references. One of them doesn't seem to mention the telling of time, for example, and I couldn't access the other since it's behind a paywall.
Perhaps the difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning could be incorporated into the first paragraph as follows (changes are indicated by bold text or strikethrough text): 
Dyscalculia (/ˌdɪskælˈkjuːliə/)[1][2][3][4] is a disability resulting in difficulty learning or comprehending arithmetic, such as difficulty in understanding numbers, learning how to manipulate numbers, performing arithmetical calculations and learning arithmetical facts. Other symptoms include difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning. Discalculia is sometimes informally known as "math dyslexia", though this can be misleading as dyslexia is a different condition from dyscalculia.[5]
Then the sentence in question could simply read "Dyscalculia does not reflect a general deficit in cognitive abilities, nor do difficulties with time, measurement, and spatial reasoning.
Notes:
#I eliminated "learning how to manipulate numbers," since it's somewhat vague and does not appear to be directly supported by the cited references (at least not any manipulations beyond arithmetical calculations, which are already mentioned).
# I changed "mathematical calculations" to "arithmetical calculations" since mathematical calculations are far more general than arithmetical calculations (for example, in algebraic topology, we can calculate homotopy groups).
# I changed "facts in mathematics" to "arithmetical facts" for similar reasons. I think the term "math facts" is used in math education circles to refer to  certain sums and products in arithmetic, but "arithmetical facts" is less ambiguous.
If anyone has any thoughts about the DSM-5 or about my proposed changes, that would be great!
--Greg at Higher Math Help (talk) 10:33, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awkward sentence 

message: The source I used was removed (change log message "predatory journal"), and I'm having trouble finding another, because that Wikipedia entry excerpt got copied to many places. I was still able to find https://thepostmillennial.com/flashback-trudeau-confessed-he-cant-do-simple-math-or-calculations: does that qualify as (enough) reliable evidence for the synonym? The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 04:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for the "dysarithmia" synonym 

message: Dyscalculia may be wrongly used to describe students who lack the ability solve problems that require math operations. When to add, subtract, multiply, or divide. How to set-up an equation to solve a real world problem, such as the notorious "when train A leaves the station at 10 AM going 40 miles per hour to the west, and train B leaves its station at 11 AM going 30 miles per hour to the east, and they are 300 miles apart when they start, what time will they meet?" A student may be thoroughly proficient at adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. However, being able to analyze the problem step-by-step, and then know which operations to use to find the answer, are not the same as being able to proficiently add, subtract, multiply, and divide numbers. Those are two separate abilities, but in my experience as a student, it was expected that once a student learned how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide, along with manipulating fractions, doing word problems would come naturally and didn't need to be taught because "it was intuitive". Again, from my experience, when a student couldn't solve the train problem, the student had to start over by being sure that adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing skills were okay. I've never come across any courses that teach problem-solving strategies. Not being able to work with numbers in a similar way that dyslexics can't work with letters and words is not the same as not being able to set-up mathematical equations to solve problems. Kind of like there are lots of people who can play musical instruments and sound great, but it takes a little more to compose that music. Don't confuse those two abilities. Linstrum (talk) 06:12, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  understanding how math operations work, but not how to use it to solve problems 

message: This page uses (I assume) the US grade system to discuss ability/progress:
Most adults with dyscalculia have a hard time processing math at a 4th-grade level. For 1st–4th grade
I accept this may be a direct quote from a reference but I live in the UK, I have no idea what age this relates to. Should this:
# specify exactly whose grade system this is?
# state the typical age of a child in said grade?
Having said that, since children don't start school at the same age in every country, maybe age isn't a useful metric anyway. AnsIdgag (talk) 17:20, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Grades"?