Talk:Pat Day

message: The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. --KenWalker | Talk 05:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Assessment#Class_parameter|Biography assessment rating]] comment 

message: The current version of the page has been objected to at Editor Assistance by a newly-registered user who previously made large deletions as an IP. I think they have a point.  The text is sourced but the sources are not used entirely honestly and it places undue emphasis on criticisms. The most opinionated text was added  by an IP editor who appears to have been a fan of a rival jockey. 
This statement in the lead is a good example of these problems: "Some critics said Day was a big fish in a small pond because the majority of his wins and all of his riding titles were in the Midwest. Day didn't win any riding titles in California, New York or Florida,..." This is sourced to Eisenberg, John (1996) The Longest Shot . The actual text from that book reads: "He was not without his detractors, particularly after Easy Goer failed to win the Derby. His critics called him Pat "Wait All" Day and said he was just a big fish in a small pond in the Midwest. The criticism did not please him but the debate over geography was moot. Yes, he would have had more competition in New York or California. But he was not a city boy. He preferred the smaller cities and slower pace of the Midwest." 
The Technique section from "Many critics described..." to "brink of rage.'" also twists the sources cited in a way that seems to be both undue and WP:SYNTH to support the editor's pre-determined disdain for the article subject.  This does not comply with the requirements of WP:BLP for highest-quality sourcing used conservatively.  I will re-remove the text identified above unless there is a timely objection here. courtesy pings to   Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:40, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Edited to add courtesy ping to , the editor mentioned above. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:46, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that there are an endless amount of numerous horse racing experts, owners, trainers, etc., cited with reliable sources (and the reliable, independent sources contextualizing why it is relevant) that have these views/opinions/critiques of the jockey certainly means there is something more to this than pure fabrication - and certainly not a "pre-determined disdain" for the article subject.   The purpose of the endless amount of these horse racing experts, owners, trainers, etc., cited with reliable sources (and the reliable, independent sources contextualizing why it is relevant) being in the article should not be to cast doubt on them just because they are controversial and critical, it is to summarize what these sources are saying.  These cited reliable, independent sources (NY Times, LA Times, etc) certainly meet the Wikipedia standards of: editorial oversight, a history of fact-checking and retractions, and a positive reputation among colleagues as demonstrated by things like industry awards or citations. These are reliable sources, because they all have a strong history of all of these things.  I'd say we must leave them all in the article (and/or add or clarify what the cited quoted sources say more elaborately to fully clarify or move them into more appropriate sections of the article); and have someone or others add in other significant viewpoints cited with reliable sources (and the reliable, independent sources contextualizing why it is relevant) cited describing other points of view - that way there is a description of both points of view. If there are reputable sources contradicting one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view - describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources and all positions included in the article.   As for the jockey's wins, where he is ranked in wins, where he is ranked in earnings, etc., they are ALL already in the article in the Riding, Records, religion and retirement sections, as well as the career wins, major racing wins, American Classics wins, Breeders Cup wins, Racing Awards and Honours sections.  They are ALL in the article already.JIJJRG (talk) 01:32, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

text: The fact that there are an endless amount of numerous horse racing experts, owners, trainers, etc., cited with reliable sources (and the reliable, independent sources contextualizing why it is relevant) that have these views/opinions/critiques of the jockey certainly means there is something more to this than pure fabrication - and certainly not a "pre-determined disdain" for the article subject.   The purpose of the endless amount of these horse racing experts, owners, trainers, etc., cited with reliable sources (and the reliable, independent sources contextualizing why it is relevant) being in the article should not be to cast doubt on them just because they are controversial and critical, it is to summarize what these sources are saying.  These cited reliable, independent sources (NY Times, LA Times, etc) certainly meet the Wikipedia standards of: editorial oversight, a history of fact-checking and retractions, and a positive reputation among colleagues as demonstrated by things like industry awards or citations. These are reliable sources, because they all have a strong history of all of these things.  I'd say we must leave them all in the article (and/or add or clarify what the cited quoted sources say more elaborately to fully clarify or move them into more appropriate sections of the article); and have someone or others add in other significant viewpoints cited with reliable sources (and the reliable, independent sources contextualizing why it is relevant) cited describing other points of view - that way there is a description of both points of view. If there are reputable sources contradicting one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view - describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources and all positions included in the article.   As for the jockey's wins, where he is ranked in wins, where he is ranked in earnings, etc., they are ALL already in the article in the Riding, Records, religion and retirement sections, as well as the career wins, major racing wins, American Classics wins, Breeders Cup wins, Racing Awards and Honours sections.  They are ALL in the article already.JIJJRG (talk) 02:34, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

text: , you've posted the exact same overly wordy comment now four times in two places.  Please stop bludgeoning the discussion. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:17, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:UNDUE]] criticism in lead and "Technique" section 

message: First, just to let all involved know, including the administrator (DeltaQuad) who just reverted to revision 955311713 by Ponyo, that this article was reverted to the blocked NatroneDay's edits (whose sockpuppet IP addresses are 2601:6C3:4081:A10:880F:BE7D:110A:5D64, 2601:6C3:4081:A10:FDF6:F268:862F:3E64, 2601:6C3:4081:A10:382C:1DB0:F90D:B67, 71.215.212.25, and 71.215.18.168), and who actually is the one who has and still is vandalizing the article by both removing pertinent reliably sourced content and by adding unsourced content into the article with numerous factual errors.  Examples: 1) Please change this in the article - Please change X "Pat Day holds all (unsourced) of the career riding records (Unsourced) at Churchill Downs and Keeneland, the two most prestigious tracks in Kentucky and among the most competitive (Unsourced) in the nation (Unsourced)," to Y "Some (or His) critics called him Pat "Wait All" Day and said he was just a big fish in a small pond (lesser rider competition than New York, Florida or California) in (being based in and riding primarily in) the Midwest (lesser jockey competition)." because Y is what the article previously cited and what the reliable source actually says.  And What the blocked NatroneDay wrote is certainly not in this reliable source, nor is it sourced at all.  2) Please also change this in the article - Please change X "Day's signature wins include winning the inaugural $3 million Breeders' Cup Classic in 1984 aboard Wild Again in one of the greatest stretch battles (Unsourced) for a big race (Unsourced) in modern American (Unsourced) racing history (Unsourced)," to Y "Day didn't win any riding titles (when based) in New York (Saratoga Race Course) or Florida (Gulfstream Park) when riding on a daily basis against the best jockey competition and rarely (reliable source says seldom) ranked among the leaders in wins at Saratoga Race Course and Gulfstream Park. url=http://classic.drf.com/news/day-shares-decades-memories | work=Daily Racing Form| first=Marty | last=McGee | title=Day shares decades of memories | date=August 4, 2005 |accessdate=March 23, 2020}} because Y is what the article previously cited and what the reliable source actually says.  And what the blocked NatroneDay wrote is certainly not in this reliable source, nor is it sourced at all.  3) Please also change (delete because its both unsourced and repetitive as its already in the article down below) this in the article - Please change X "Day was one of the greatest big money riders, winning nine Triple Crown races (repetitive as its already in the article below) and 12 Breeders' Cup races (repetitive and already in the article below). He and Hall of Fame rider Eddie Arcaro are the only riders (Unsourced, plus where Day ranks to Arcaro is also repetitive as its also already in the article down below - "Arcaro 17 Triple Crown race wins, Shoemaker 11, Day tied with others with 9") to have at least three Belmont Stakes wins (Unsourced) and five Preakness wins. Day retired in 2005 with the record for most earnings by a jockey (Unsourced, plus repetitive as where Day ranks in earnings is already in the article down below cited with a reliable source). In 2000 (Unsourced), he was the active leader (Unsourced) for career Breeders' Cup wins (Unsourced, plus repetitive as where Day ranks [6th] in Breeders Cup wins is already in the article down below cited with reliable source) though he was later surpassed as the events were expanded (Unsourced) after he retired (unsourced)," to Y remove because what the blocked NatroneDay wrote is certainly not in this reliable source, nor is it sourced at all.  4) Please also change this in the article - Please change X "but was sometimes criticized," to Y "often criticized," because Y is what the article previously cited and what the reliable source actually says. 5) Please also change this in the article - Please change X "Because Day often came with late runs in big spots and had a reputation for saving horse for the stretch," to Y "Because Day often arrived at the wire too late, he was given unflattering nicknames—Pat (I'll Wait All) Day,  Pat Delay Day and Patient Pat, "   because Y is what the article previously cited and what the reliable source actually says 6)Please restore what the actual reliably sourced quote said. Please change X "His patience as a rider" which was removed to Y "As Pat Forde, a reporter for the Louisville Courier-Journal, wrote in 1995, "He is so patient he could watch a faucet drip for days.  His patience as a rider was at times unnerving for owners, trainers, fans and bettors, because Y is what the reliable source actually says.  Please change X "Clver to his fans and lethal to his rivals (Unsourced)," to Y removed because its unsourced. Please change X ntucky Derby]] on LilTee." This is repetitive as its already in the article down below.  8) Please remove this unsourced quote - "D. Wayne Lukas once said (Unsourced) "I'm only as good as Pat Day's rides." Unsourced. The reliable source actually says, "Day often looked too passive, and his deliberate riding style of waiting and waiting, then making a move, and waiting again, frustrated trainer D. Wayne Lukas, and many fans and bettors.  He also drew criticism by riding tentatively, and stopping and starting with many of his mounts.   Despite the frequent criticisms of Day's riding style, rides, and being based mostly in the Midwest, Day won many big races throughout North America. 9) Please remove this false, total error - "Day was the regular rider on Hall of Fame filly Safely Kept, riding her to victory in the 1986 Breeders' Cup Distaff wire to wire on the lead."  Day Never rode Safely Kept, and Safely Kept never won the Breeders Cup Distaff, she won the Breeders' Cup Sprint and was ridden by her regular rider Craig Perret.  10) Please remove these unsourced statements - "Day was equally strong (Unsourced) at taking (Unsourced) horses to the lead."  And,  "Despite occasional (all the reliable sources said often or frequent) criticisms." And, "Day won all (Unsourced.  All? Certainly not true as Day never won the big Breeders' Cup Mile, Day never won the big Breeders' Cup Sprint, Day never won the big Breeders' Cup Filly and Mare Turf, Day never won the big Grade I Ashland Stakes, Day never won the big Grade I Carter Handicap), Day never won the big Grade I Vosburgh Stakes, Day never won the big Grade I Coaching Club American Oaks, Day never won the big Grade I Cigar Mile Handicap; Day never won the big Grade I Santa Anita Derby, Day never won the big Grade I Santa Anita Handicap; Day never won the big Grade I Hollywood Futurity, Gamely Stakes or Malibu Stakes, Day never won the big Flamingo Stakes, Day never won the big Grade I Vanity Handicap, Day never won the big Grade I Beverly D. Stakes, Day never won the big Grade I Matriarch Stakes, Day never won the big Grade I Pacific Classic Stakes, Day never won many other big races in NA; but its unsourced anyway) of the biggest (False and Unsourced) races throughout North America (false and unsourced)  during the most competitive (Unsourced) era (Unsourced) of jockey competition (Unsourced).   The blocked NatroneDay (check NatroneDay's talk page, etc) is using numerous different sockpuppet ip addresses (which is why I countered/counterbalanced to restore the pertinent reliably sourced content) to continue pushing his unsourced content with numerous factual errors version [by both removing reliably sourced content, and adding content without citing any reliable sources with factual errors] with disruptive edit warring in the Pat Day article, including 2601:6C3:4081:A10:880F:BE7D:110A:5D64, 2601:6C3:4081:A10:FDF6:F268:862F:3E64, 2601:6C3:4081:A10:382C:1DB0:F90D:B67, 71.215.212.25, and 71.215.18.168.72.227.160.141 (talk) 14:47, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: This edit request is ridiculously long. Also, you’re clearly tied up in some sort of content dispute with other editors. Edit requests are for uncontroversial changes only, and are not a form of dispute resolution. Seek a consensus on this talk page and resolve your disputes with other editors before submitting an edit request. — Tartan357  (Talk) 15:09, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 May 2020 

message: If an objective administrator would merely take a few moments to read this article and inline citations, they would clearly see, With all due respect, the last editor who edited this article made blatant errors, made statements that are not backed up with any citations, and repeated statements already in the article.  A blatant error number one is that the editor wrote that Pat day was the regular rider of safely kept and won the breeder's cup distaff aboard her. Neither of which are true.  Pat day never rode safely kept, and day never won the breeders cup sprint. Craig perret was her regular rider, and she won the breeder's cup sprint with perret aboard. Please remove this error from the article. Another blatant error is that day won all the big races in north America, which also is false. There are numerous big races in north America which day didn't win, in fact too many to list. Please remove. Also, his amount of triple crown race wins and 1992 derby win are repeated two and three times. Moreover, the citations cited do not reflect what the last editor wrote. In fact,  in many cases the cited citations actually contradict and/or are different from what the previous editor wrote vs. what the citation actually says.  Some examples are the citations say that his nicknames were Pat I'll wait all day, pat delay day, etc.  The citation also states that his midwest competition was lesser than what day faced in NY and Florida, and he seldom ranked among the win leaders there. Where he ranks is also repeated. Furthermore, almost all of the statements that the previous editor made are simply not backed up by citations. All I ask is for an objective administrator to read what the citations actually say, and do basic fact checks to see the points I have made, as well as the errors, repeated statements and lack of citations the previous editor made. Thank you to all involved.Emet77 (talk) 12:34, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Which version of the article should we return to? Look in the article's history and find a point before this alleged disruption started.  – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:48, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , given what previously happened on this page, the user may be a sock of the IP who made the previous request. (Account created this morning with this being their only 2 contribs) Username6892 16:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Delightful. In that case, I am marking this edit request as "answered" until there is consensus about how to restore it. In the meantime, I have posted a note at Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse racing that this article may need attention. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:25, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone through and done some fairly extensive edits. I've removed the blatant errors and hyperbole cited by Emet77. There still may be a bit of repetition about the Triple Crown but since that ranks high in most casual racing fans view of the sport, I don't think its inappropriate. Jlvsclrk (talk) 01:17, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you very much Jlvsclrk. First, I agree with the vast majority of your edits, including the "Major" Stakes wins list only including Grade I wins (or races that were Grade I's when he won them).  Just a few other suggestions/possible requests you may have missed for context and perspective. There is a Wikipedia link to Owner Barry Irwin's wiki article.  For perspective and context, Day ranks 6th (tied for 6th all time with Castellano) all-time for Breeders Cup wins behind Smith, Velazquez, Bailey, Dettori, and Gomez.  I'd suggest this should be added if you agree; just like his Triple Crown all-time race wins ranking behind Arcaro and Shoemaker, and tied with Stevens, Hartack and Sande, is also in the article for context and perspective.  Also, for perspective and context, Day ranks 4th all-time for all-time earnings behind John Velazquez, Smith and Castellano; and Day ranks 4th all-time in wins behind Baze, Pincay Jr., and Shoemaker.   I'd suggest these should be added as well for context, if you agree.  Furthermore, I do not think it would be even close to being anywhere near "Undue Criticism," or "defamatory," or "libellous," or overly critical to note that Day's most common (along with Patient Pat) and most popular nickname was "Pat Wait All Day," as numerous citations within the article note this. ; plus this sourced citation which seemed to be accidentally removed from the article.  The nickname was used Both in a critical way AND a positive way.  I quote some of them, "What had frustrated the Coach Wayne Lukas (who at times had replaced Day with Bailey, Stevens and Donna Barton) and everyone who had ever ripped up a ticket on a horse Day (Pat Wait All Day or Patient Pat) rode was Day's deliberate style of waiting and waiting and waiting. Day's record was proof that Day being very patient was successful.  But Day often looked too passive, especially when Day's run came up short.  When that happened, Day drew the curses of bettors and questions from trainers."   Another quote, "Because Day often arrived at the wire too late, he was given an unflattering nickname--Pat (I’ll Wait All) Day."   Another quote, "There are critics of Day's riding style, Day's patient style often led to fast-finish near misses. But Day also had an uncanny ability to get the most out of a horse."  Another quote, "but Day was often criticized for waiting too long to make his move.  I also do not think it would be even close to being anywhere near "Undue Criticism," or "defamatory," or "libellous," or overly critical to note that despite Day winning many big races throughout North America, Day's daily (and meets) competition he dominated in the Midwest (all due respect to Larry Snyder, Fabio Arguello Jr, Pat Johnson, Charlie Woods Jr, Fires, Brumfield, Jim McKnight, Gryder, Meche, Melancon, Mark Guidry, Keith Allen, Mike McDowell, etc) was far lesser than the daily (and meets) competition he would go up against in New York (Florida in the winters) and California, as this citation attests to.  I quote, "Day was not without his detractors; his critics (critical here, but positive in others) called him Pat "Wait All" Day and said Day was a big fish in a small pond (significantly lesser daily competition) in the Midwest.  Yes, Day would have more competition in New York (Florida for winters) or California, but Day preferred the smaller cities and slower pace of the Midwest."  It should be noted that in this citation it proclaims, "In the early- to mid-1990's, Day swapped Arlington and Oaklawn for Saratoga and Gulfstream (the NY-Fla circuit for summers and winters), and Day seldom ranked among the leaders in wins (vs better daily competition), although the switch's further allowed Day to have better and higher mount earnings nonetheless."  I'd suggest these should be added as well for context and perspective, if you agree, and I don't believe these are even close to being anywhere near "Undue Criticism," or "defamatory," or "libellous," or overly critical.  Also the citation cited for the quote, "D. Wayne Lukas said "I'm only as good as Pat Day's rides," doesn't have Lukas quoted as saying that; but I am sure you can find positive quotes from Lukas and others about Day/Day's riding style.  The citation quotes Lukas as saying,  "Lukas is more critical of famed jockey Pat Day's Derby performance than he is of Timber Country. "Pat spent most of the day steering him instead of riding him," Lukas said. "He was not nearly as aggressive as I wanted."    Also, the citations attributed to "Day was also strong at taking horses to the lead as he did on Louis Quatorze in his 1996 Preakness victory and on Commendable in his 2000 Belmont Stakes win," are not attesting to these wins/rides, but are citing critiques of some of Day's quote "start stop, tentative riding" when riding Forty Niner, Seeking the Gold and Easy Goer.   Obviously, I'd also let you decide on the repetitiveness (maybe a bit too repetitive, but I understand your "casual fan" point) of some of his big wins throughout the article. That's your call, obviously.  Thanks for all you have done, and continue to do for horse racing articled on Wikipedia.Emet77 (talk) 07:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 May 2020