Talk:Operation Days of Penitence Fatalities

message: We do not accept at face value Israeli claims for their reasons for attacking the refugee camps. We do not accept Israeli claims that all or most of their victims were "terrorists." I am willing to accept that Israelis do not believe the Al-Mezan Center's documentation. That's why all their data are attributed to them.--Alberuni 00:20, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Who is "we"?  Your opinion isn't the issue here; do outside sources dispute that this is the reason? Jayjg 15:38, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Look above about 4 paragraphs at your own quote of 23:43, 31 Oct 2004: "The numbers themselves are disputed by various sources, including the Associated Press and Reuters" --Alberuni 19:47, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, allegedly, 

message: As stated in Operation Days of Penitence
* According to the Associated Press, at least 109 Palestinians were killed (including 18 minors): "Since Israel launched the offensive Sept. 29, after a deadly rocket attack on the southern Israeli border town Sderot, at least 109 Palestinians have been killed and hundreds wounded. Dozens of civilians, including 18 minors, died in the offensive. Five Israelis, including two preschoolers killed in the Sderot attack, also died." 
* According to Reuters, Palestinian medics states that at least 104 Palestinians were killed "Palestinian medics said Israeli forces killed at least 62 militants and 42 other Palestinians believed to be civilians. Gunmen killed three Israelis in north Gaza and a Thai farm worker in a retaliation raid."  
* According to Al-Mezan Center for Human Rights, 133 Palestinians (including 31 children) were killed.  The Al-Mezan Center reports that 550 Palestinians, including 169 children, have been killed or injured during the Israeli offensive. Names, ages, and addresses of each Palestinian fatality, militants and civilians, are available on the website, though not combat status (militant or civilian). (Al Mezan Center for Human Rights).
* Property damage: About 77 homes have been completely destroyed, hundreds more have been damaged, and an area of 610 dunams of farmland have been cleared. In addition, numerous public facilities, including police and security posts, schools, mosques and kindergartens have been damaged or destroyed. (Al Mezan Center for Human Rights)
* The Israel Defence Forces reported killing 130 Palestinians, the vast majority of them combatants. (Haaretz)
* According to Haaretz, 129 Palestinians were killed in the operation, 42 of whom were civilians and 87 were combatants: 68 from Hamas and Islamic Jihad and 19 from the Fatah associated al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and Popular Resistance Committees. (Haaretz)
Characterizing those who dispute Al Mezan's totals as "Israeli sources" would be false, of course, since Associated Press, Reuters, and Palestinian medics are not "Israeli sources". Jayjg 02:19, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The Reuters source says the numbers come from Palestinian medics, not the IDF; I don't know why you consistently ignore this source.  Also, the AP's numbers are considerably lower than the IDF's numbers, so I don't understand why you imagine they come from the IDF. Jayjg 23:33, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Death Figures

message: If you're going to stick the word "allegedly" in front of the some claims, then you'll need to stick them in front of all claims. Jayjg 02:22, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I did. Reportedly, allegedly, claimed. I think it is quite NPOV. --Alberuni 02:23, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Not in front of all claims.  I've put them back in now. Jayjg 15:41, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Allegedly 

message: I think the statement "In addition, numerous public facilities, including police and security posts, schools, mosques and kindergartens were damaged or destroyed." in the Property section needs to be qualified.  But frankly, property damage is not a "fatality", and doesn't belong here at all, especially when it is already in the Operation Days of Penitence article. Jayjg 17:05, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, property damage is not a fatality. Delete it. It's just more unfortunate collateral damage incurred while Israel takes the measures necessary to defend itself. Too bad for the victims but the Jewish state comes first, right Jay? Good thing you caught that.  --Alberuni 17:38, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  In addition, numerous public facilities, including police and security posts, schools, mosques and kindergartens were damaged or destroyed. 

message: I think it's about time this was merged into the timeline at Operation Days of Penitence.Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 12:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Support Given that the articles are influenced by 'recentism' and this operation is not notable, there is certainly no legitimacy to a separate article. --Shuki (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal