Talk:Irony/Archive 1

message: The Semitic root of the Greek word is derived from the Accadic term erewum, "covering" Does anyone else doubt that this is an authentic Akkadian word? Got the Akkadian dictionary anyone?Wetman 17:38, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymology

message: I guess I may be a purist by some definitions yet I see the value of a language that evolves and adapts to meet a need.  Much of what I hear on TV or radio news broadcasts, written by people who are supposed to be exemplars of our prestige dialect here in the United States, almost consistently identify simple coincidence as irony: "Joe Blow, the home-run hitter, pounded in his 35th home run of the season today.  Ironically, Joe's uniform bears the number 35" or "It's raining in Louisiana, ironically, an area hard hit by last month's flooding."  To me, these are just coincidences and not irony at all.
Yet I see that our language seems to be groping for something more than coincidence to suit the situations in these examples.  The problem I see is that there is no other word in English that so aptly describes something which is ironic.  As Steven Wright the comic might observe, there is no synonym in English for synonym.  So there seems to be no synonym for irony.  Thus the one word we have to capture this concept should be preserved, in my humble view, for a meaning as close to those most widely understood as possible and proscribe loosening this meaning to contain simple coincidence or comparison: "The male peacock, ironically, is the gender with the most spectacular plumage."
As to the jai-alai example, I also was confused by it.  A jai-alai fronton (at least those that I have seen) has a "glass wall" much like a racquetball court does, to permit spectators a better view of the action.  I will grant that it is not made of window glass so fragile it would break in the action of the game, but probably some modern clear plastic.  But most casual speakers would call it glass, so the confusion with the example is understandable.
:You are refering to the overworked use of ironic in the sence of irony of fate whic is a twist of circumsntance theat renders an action futile or ridiculous is what most english speakers use the word ironic for.  By its self the Lousisana sentence is not ironic, but it would be ironic if, during a dry spell when rain is needed that the only place that receives rain is one that had flooding only last month.  Although not a great example, and more appropriately just a coincidence as you said, the baseballer's 35 emblem may be considered lossely ironic when he pounds inthe 35th run in the sense that it is conveying a message that it was not intending to. Dainamo 17:57, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Because we are looking at a friendly adult and child in a stereotype sugar-sweet scene, but then we observe the adult is Hitler which is incongruous to what kind of portayal we would normally expect him in.  The artist's mischief has thus rendered a seemingly nice picture disturbingly funny to an audience who would recognise Hitler (those who do not whould not see the joke) and hence we have irony Dainamo 17:57, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irony 

message: The new example may be lame, but the old one confused irony with the absurd. --Wetman 16:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "situational irony"

message: Someone removed the image and text recently. Apparently the photo, the caption and the accompanying text are not putting across clearly enough what "visual irony" means and why this is a good example of it? Your editing skills are requested. --Wetman 06:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the image was deleted for other reasons. I've added a new image, which sucks, and fails to convey visual irony at all, but provides a clear enough example of some sort of irony. — Phil Welch 07:38, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I think it is irony. It probably was not the intention of the sign poster to create a funny situation which they have. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.104.36.194 (talk) 20:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Visual irony

message: If irony is a form of speech then what the fuck is the irony in events like shooting down a military helicopter with a pistol (the irony: a very armored vehicle, for some reason, gets shot by an uncomparable weapon) or "he could prevent anyone's death, but got killed - how ironic"?
:Helicopters aren't actually armored--if they were, they would be impossible to fly, which might be ironic. I think you're looking for "irony of fate", which is more figurative than literal—the idea being that the Fates or the gods are manipulating events on earth as an exercise in ironic expression. Although I don't think your examples are ironic, just improbable. — Phil Welch 03:57, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  PLZTELLMELOL!!! 

message: I just noticed that this article is a subcategory of Humor. Is it accurate to portray irony as a form of humor? Humor, I would argue, is a form of irony. All comedic forms rely on the real meaning (the "punch") which is the unexpected contradiction of that which preceeded ( the "set-up"). Whether Moe's patented eye-poke is thwarted by Curly's open palm perpindicular block or Norm MacDonald, aware of his audience's savvy, pulls a post-ironic double switch; whether a simple knock-knock joke or Andrew Dice Clay's sophmoric rewrites of Mother Goose; irony is the life-bread of comedy.
Touché. arevolvingonob
:That depends on whether you think humor is supposed to be funny, or not.  Irony is not necessarily funny.  When it isn't funny, it is more ironic, because the humor is more unexpected.  You need to ask "Now how could that be funny?" as with real life, which is not designed to be comedy but frequently turns out to be ironic.  Comedy is designed to cause laughter, so its humor is intentional and not ironic.  Irony causes laughter, so it is a form of humor, but not always comedy.  Not everything that causes laughter is funny.  IMO humor is a superset of the funny and the ironic.  Irony is not necessarily unfunny, or necessarily intentional, but comedy is deliberate humor.  oneismany 19:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Humor is always funny but irony is separate from humor: think "grim irony"  Finding Irony in the Category Humor shouldn't confuse anyone. --Wetman 20:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A New Controversy 

message: It may just be a novelty of an idea, but I think that perhaps we should include some examples in this article of irony as it is used in Wikipedia.  We all have seen little things here and there that constitute irony here in wikipedia (My favorite being the fact that aixelsyd links to dyslexia.)  Or would this just be a waste of valuable webspace?  (Much like this very paragraph, ironically.)
Tongo Zitheroo Ketchill
:The 'treatment' section of hyperfocus lists abuse, stigma, and Ritalin as potential treatments.  oneismany 10:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Irony in Wikipedia

message: Props to Sophocles, a master of irony ("What did Laius look like? He was a black man... like you"), but etymologically, doesn't irony come from Attic middle comedy (Menander) one of whose stock characters, "ho eiron" spoke with meanings of which he was completely unaware? 
As an interesting (to me) aside, the word parasite also comes from one of these stock characters, the free-loading friend who just hung around for the free food. para sitos, "next to the food." --Fulminouscherub 03:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attic Middle Comedy? 

message: I think we should remove it. It's a PoV. --Haham hanuka 18:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "POV" refers to a violation of mainstream neutrality. All interpretation of cultural material of any kind involves just such a point-of-view. Our self-appointed censorship expert cannot seem to provide another example of visual irony to add to this one, though she has been invited to do so. He hope she can begin some positive editing here. Reverts are inappropriate behavior. We'd all appreciate a little less "POV" from this individual. --Wetman 22:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree that no image at all is better than the Hitler image.  Can't we just get rid of it, and then the POV tag problem goes away? -GTBacchus(talk) 04:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: In fixing the formerly somewhat laborous caption I have tried to express the difference between the paradox that is presented in the picture, and the viewer's ironical appreciation of it. If we're editing here and still can't tell paradox from irony, then suppressing the propaganda photo of Hitler must have other motivations than that it simply "isn't an example of visual irony". What's the real issue here? Someone who thinks the text referring to the propaganda photo is "unfair" to Hitler should put that "disputed POV" label right back. --Wetman 23:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The distinction you make between paradox and the ironical appreciation of paradox is a good one.  Meanwhile, that doesn't make the Hitler photo a good example.  I don't think it's a POV issue; I just really think it's a poor example that tends to perpetuate sloppy use of the word "irony" to refer to any perceived incongruity, which I don't think we need to encourage, since many authorities consider that a mis-use of the word. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The above is perfectly indicative of the level at which this article must be edited. I am removing "Irony" from my Watchlist, to the relief of all. --Wetman 09:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I fully agree. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: I understand that these are the same thing- so shouldn't at least some mention be made under the Tragic Irony section (especially since earlier on the page it refers to Dramatic Irony) Interpretivechaos 23:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dramatic/Tragic Irony 

message: Is there any way we can have the redirect show up only if the user types in "ironic"?  Or, do away with it altogether?  It's borderline. --Candybars 00:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alanis Morissette 

message: Should be cut entirely from this article, especally since right above at least one of them is a link to the example. Spoiler sections are for articles about movies, books, TV shows, etc, not definations of words. Joncnunn 13:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler sections 

message: it's funny how this article tries to describe the brilliance of homer's humor when it was just another example of "homer is stupid, lough with him, he doesn't know what irony is". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.76.99.106 (talk • contribs) .
Not really-- It's Skinner who makes the comment —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.18.89.218 (talk • contribs) .
Ah. Irony 222.155.46.183 05:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  simpsons 

message: Located here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Irony
Prove me wrong —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fo0hzy (talk • contribs) .
:Actually that isn't ironic at all. Self-referential yes. I suppose everyone was being sincere about irony but that isn't ironic just maybe a little self-important.--Jsn4 06:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The ultimate irony 

message: Us Brits always go on about our use of Irony as if we invented it which other nations don't have the same apprecitaion (I call it self and imposed depreciation myself). Of course this is not true. However what about these two stories; both on the Song "Always look on the bright side of life" - one time it was sung was during the Falklands war by sailors on the deck of a sinking ship, the other by supporters of the failed Manchester bid for the Olympics - would you define this as Irony, or at least an attempt at being Ironic? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.92.40.49 (talk • contribs) .
:I wouldn't.  I'd say those are two classic examples gallows humor, but not irony in the strict sense.  To be fair, the modern, less-accepted usage of irony probably does cover your examples, but then, the modern usage covers almost everything. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How is the first not a classic example of irony? The second isn't at all but the first seems to fit the traditional usage quite well.--Jsn4 14:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this Irony? 

message: I swear the below was in the movie Time Bandits. Can anyone else confirm this?
A shipboard scene of reconciliation and hope for an estranged couple ends with the camera pulling back to reveal a life preserver stenciled “RMS Titanic.”
Amnesiak 15:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncredited reference? 

message: I removed "good and nice" from "every good and nice culture" to leave "every culture" as those modifiers struck me as POV. Revert if you wish. ++Lar: t/c 05:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Irony#Cultural_variation]] 

message: Gak! Why hijack a perfectly good word for this? Surely there are other, better names for the state of hopeless and depressive muddling about? Weltaunschaung? Or maybe Existential despair? (especially if you're going to use Søren Kierkegaard as illustration)? Irony generally must include the elements of the sort of humor generated by the ignorance of children or mortals (whose understanding is childlike in retrospect, given events), and it's something more than just wallowing about in tragedy. Some saving insight or illuminating contrast between idealism and reality, must be lurking in the wings. Spare me from "disruptive forces" and "incomprehensibility." And stomach swallowing and navel gazing, too, please! You might as well babble or have monkeys at the typewriter. There's nothing so humorless as a deconstructionist. SBHarris 22:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Irony as absolute "negativity"? 

message: todays's Zit's comic was about irony, and actually seemed to use it pretty well.  Would adding it to the article be a good idea? Yoyogod 15:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I get the impression that loading up with too many references might not be a good thing. That said, a recent Irregular webcomic addresses this topic in some depth (in the annotations) ++Lar: t/c 10:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zits 

message: Yes, Steve Irwin's death was tragic (and I was a fan), but nearly every news-source noted that it was pretty ironic for a man who made his living consorting up close with the world's most dangerous animals, to finally meet his end at the tail of one that hardly ever is lethal. So why remove this excellent modern example of irony? SBHarris 20:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know.  Personally I think the page would be better without it--there are enough examples and it's still a little "too soon".  Just my opinion. 24.131.14.253 04:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, perhaps still too raw for some. I'll take it out and see if anybody else wants it in. SBHarris 05:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Had he been killed by capgun, it would have been ironic. And that's about what happened to Irwin. Stingray deaths are so rare there isn't even a list of them, as there is for sharks. SBHarris 20:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steve Irwin's death 

message: "Seymour Cray, supercomputer architect, died of head and neck injuries suffered in a traffic collision. His vehicle — a Jeep Cherokee — was designed using a Cray supercomputer."
I would say, this is only ironic if the cause of the accident was technical malfunction due to errors in the supercomputer. Otherwise there is no connection, and this example should be removed. Apus 12:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, and have thought so since reading it. Jeeps are dangerous, and supercomputers aren't God. Supercomputers don't guarantee perfection, or car models which make drivers accident-injury proof (especially when the car model is stuck within fixed parameters-- you can't make something that looks like a hummer and call it a "jeep"). This is similar to a previous example which thought it ironic that the head of the world health organization should get sick. So what? Who guaranteed he wouldn't? Does anything think the title confers immortality? Anyway, since that makes two of us, I'm going to remove the item. The person who added it is free to re-add and defend if is indeed the case of computer-error or something of the kind that contributed to Cray's death. SBHarris 17:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seymour Cray's supercomputer 

message: It seriously took me forever looking through the history before I figured out why it was in the article (the edit note saying "note the cigarette").  There's no explaination for it at all in the main article or the caption of the picture.   I don't think the average reader will be able to figure out why it's there.  It just looks like a mistaken link or vandalism at this point.  PK9 23:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose we should just put in "note cigarette" as the caption. SBHarris 05:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The cremation picture 

message: Hey,
I was trying to find a reference for the Charles Justice story ("At the turn of the 19th century, Charles Justice, a prison inmate at the Ohio State Penitentiary, devised an idea to improve the efficiency of the restraints on the electric chair. After a parole, he was convicted in a robbery/murder and returned to prison 13 years later under a death sentence. On November 9, 1911, he was electrocuted in the same electric chair that he had helped to improve.[citation needed]"). I found evidence that a Charles Justice was executed on October 27, 1911 , as well as two references to articles in the Akron Beacon Journal which have the entire story in its entirity (, ), which is backed by another personal website . This story has also been published by NewsNet5 and Online Opinion Australia. I'm not sure how citable any of these sources are; however, the fact that two webpages have the same copy of the Akron Beacon Journal suggests that it might be genuine. Still, it'll be nice if we could find a better reference.
I'm leaving these links around in case somebody with more time wants to get to the bottom of this.
cheers,
Gaurav 14:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "Charles Justice" story 

message: "In response to Mrs. Connally's comment, "Mr. President, you can't say that Dallas doesn't love you." John F. Kennedy uttered his last words, "That's very obvious." "
Is this really ironic? Kennedy wasn't stomped to death by a mob of angry Dallasites. 66.167.39.160 16:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On the other hand, the statement fell spectacularly short of being 100% true. SBHarris 20:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kennedy 

message: That "abbreviation" is a relatively long word but there's a way you can use the term while only using a fraction of the letters(abbr)? 66.167.39.160 18:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See the ironically humorous pronunciations of lisp on Wiktionary. Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 20:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it ironic... 

message: I found this article useful but I wasn't sure if the bit under Comic Irony (a cat being trapped inside the house when a bird truck and a mouse truck crash. I don't see how this any different from the example of a misuse about how the beer company heir was allergic to beer. If someone could explain it would be useful.
:Agreed.  It is unfortunate, but how is it ironic? Fishhead64 19:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A better example is the one with the detectives entering an office filled with cat corpses and one detective points out all the scientific formulae written on blackboards and whatnot, claiming "Curiosity killed these cats."  More generically, the word "ironic" is becoming tragically over-used, being invoked whenever anything coincidental or comical happens. BryanEkers 02:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the Far Side Cat joke ironic? 

message: The article says that sarcasm is commonly confused with irony. However, sarcasm is in fact a specific type of verbal irony, no? Theshibboleth 11:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, sarcasm is a subset of irony. I think the article merely intends to point out that they aren't exactly the same thing, and that while all sarcasm is ironic, not all irony is sarcasm, and even in the sub-case of deliberately ironic statements, not all are meant sarcastically.SBHarris 01:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sarcasm not irony? 

message: There's thirteen "Final Fantasy" games, and the Daemon Hunters chapter is numbered 666.
* No, that isn't irony, that's just the author's choice for doing that. But, is having a paper cut from a Band-Aid box ironic? Hell, I'll be bold! -Uagehry456|TalkJordanhillVote 00:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: How's this?

message: How about this? Noteworthy in the article?
* The Swatch brand is famous for their plastic-bodied watches. When Swatch released their first metal-bodied watch, they named it Irony.
--Goonies (Tell me!) 13:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intentional Irony

message: I am tempted to add an unreferenced template (the one that says this article does not cite its sources) to this page...in fact I probably should.  Doesn't it bother anyone else this article is turning into a dumping ground where anytime somebody thinks of/bumps into something they think is "ironic", they hurry to wikipedia to add it here?  This is an encyclopedia after all and I see little value in it turning into basically "a random list of what people think are examples of irony". Tendancer 00:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The template is badly needed. This article is very crufty and constantly contradicts itself as to whether the "killed-by-a-falling-safety-sign" type events are ironic or not. For the record I think they aren't. Eleland 20:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much clutter