Talk:Zen/Archive 4

message: The following paragraph combines two unrelated ideas and the second ("This openness...")  seems to have nothing to do with the topic "Zen in Japan":
"The Japanese Zen establishment—including the Soto sect, the major branches of Rinzai, and several renowned teachers— has been criticized for its involvement in Japanese militarism and nationalism during World War II and the preceding period. A notable work on this subject was Zen at War (1998) by Brian Victoria, an American-born Soto priest. This openness has allowed non-Buddhists to practice Zen, especially outside of Asia, and even for the curious phenomenon of an emerging Christian Zen lineage, as well as one or two lines that call themselves "nonsectarian." With no official governing body, it's perhaps impossible to declare any authentic lineage "heretical." Some schools emphasize lineage and trace their line of teachers back to Japan, Korea, Vietnam or China; other schools do not."
:Yes, it looks like I did that while revising some sections back in May. In any event, it was certainly inadvertent. I probably meant to delete that passage, but ended up removing it from one section to another. I'm going to delete it now.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 20:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Topic:  Zen in Japan

message: "Direct pointing to the soul of man:" is problematic.  "Direct pointing to the Mind" is better. Gender reference is not necessary.  Look to Lankavatara Sutra for an explanation of Mind. 216.114.170.164 14:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  the Teacher 

message: Could somebody please check the correctness of the references to Zen at the beginning of the Buddhism article? --Klimov 17:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zen in the [[Buddhism]] article 

message: What's with the ugly tables?  Why two tables?  Can they be combined into one?  Details of the how the name is spelled in various languages should not dominatate the page, so I moved them to the end until we can decide what to do with them. Hu 06:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ugly Tables 

message: The picture is a wonderful picture and should not be deleted.  Ideally the picture should be on the right because then the patriarch would be looking into the article, but the Table of Contents are getting in the way a bit. Hu 06:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zen Picture 

message: To:
"Eugen Herrigel's book Zen and the Art of Archery (), described his training in the Japanese Zen martial art of Kyudo [4], which inspired many early Zen practitioners. However, many scholars are quick to criticize this book and others listed here as "orientalist," based on a western perception of Zen, rather than in-depth scholarly study of its origins.",
I would like to add:
For example, The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery relates that Herrigel's archery teacher had no experience of Zen (nor pretended to have any). Furthermore, the testimony of the Japanese-English interpretor supports that events considered by Herrigel as very significant Zen-wise were in fact nothing but misunderstandings due to language barrier.
I am not sure whether this link should be added here or not (relevancy).
Isshoni 14:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archery and Zen 

message: "For examples of 'successful' koan practice resulting in enlightenment experiences, see the anecdotes of Rinzai koan practice recounted in the first book in English to engage Zen as a practice, The Three Pillars of Zen by Philip Kapleau (). For examples of years of futile and fruitless koan practice, see the book AfterZen by Janwillem van de Wetering (). The most important book on the subject in English is probably Isshu Miura and Ruth Fuller Sasaki's Zen Dust (ASIN B0006BNOZG), sadly long out of print. Fortunately the text, while lacking the extensive footnotes, continues to be available as The Zen Koan: It's History and Use in Rinzai Zen (). Probably the best relatively brief survey of koan study is the introduction to Victor Sogen Hori's Zen Sand: The Book of Capping Phrases for Koan Practice () which can be found on the web. Also of importance, although marred by the ideological perspectives of several of its authors, is the anthology edited by Steven Heine and Dale Wright, The Koan: Texts and Contexts in Zen Buddhism."
I have not read most of these books, but it sounds more like a personnal commented bibliography than a NPOV.
Isshoni 14:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commented bibliography within the article: NPOV? 

message: Since this article is, inevitably, "Zen seen from the West"-oriented, it may be fair to mention that many Western Zen masters have been involved in financial and sexual scandals.
Isshoni 14:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scandals 

message: Deleted the Master Hughes reference as POV. Apparently a self-declared Zen master, certainly not the most prominent Zen figure in Texas.
:Thanks. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  American Zen 

message: Well, this article as it stands could certainly use a thorough overhaul. This is precisely what I plan to do (fair warning) after I get back from my vacation in a couple weeks. Anybody who wants to get started giving it a once-over ahead of me is welcome and encouraged to do so. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedit 

message: The article mentions of North Indian Chola dynasty, which i have never heard of. Chola dynasty was based in southern India, though they have invaded northern India, they never established their kingdom there. Will the author check the validity and correct it?
:Well, judging by the article Chola, they did rule eastern India, e.g. Bengal, which one might consider sort of northern. However, there generally seems to be a lot of sparsely-cited information about Bodhidharma floating around, so I'll take that out. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:31, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Indian Cholas? 

message: Might someone like to mention the fact that "stillness" or "meditation" is not the exact meaning of Dhyana/Zen and that it's sometimes translated to English as "no thoughs" (noun)? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Dhyana", unless I am quite mistaken, has a fairly specific meaning in Sanskrit, which is something along the lines of "meditation" or "mental concentration", etc. I've never heard it translated literally as "no thoughts". - Nat Krause(Talk!) 08:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dhyana 

message: There are way more external links than would seem to be neccessary.  I've done a little trimming, but would someone who knows this area care to do some deeper cutting? Check WP:EL for guidelines. TIA, -- Mwanner | Talk 13:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spam 

message: I took this paragraph out of the "radical teachings" section:
----
:Similarly, Seung Sahn, a contemporary Zen teacher, has said that, in this life we must all "kill" three things: first we must kill our parents; second we must kill the Buddha; and last, we must kill the Zen teacher (e.g. Seung Sahn). Of course, kill here is not literally killing.  What is meant is to kill one's attachment to teachers or other external objects.  Rather than see concepts outside of themselves, Zen practitioners must integrate these objects with their concepts of self.
----
I don't really object strongly to this material but the problem is that it is unsourced material. We have a paraphrase (should be a quote) from Seung Sahn that doesn't say where it's from. Worse, the paragraph then interprets the meaning of what he said. How do we know what he meant? Who has the authority to interpret Seung Sahn's words for him? - Nat Krause(Talk!) 00:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed paragraph 

message: I remember reading in a text on zen meditation that zen translated as simple.  One of the meditative techniques within the text was that you should seek to find the nothing in your mind.  By absolutely emptying your mind of thought, the one thing that you should do in your life will come forth.  Absolute simplicity in all forms of life and meditation is the goal of zen meditation.  
I'll look around for this definition, as I'm not sure if I still own the book, or even where it is for that matter.
:Zen as in "Zen Buddhism" does not translate as simple. However, there are many homophones in Japanese, so the word "zen" actually has many meanings. It means "good" and it also means "whole", but these are completely different words with different etymologies. It might mean "simple", too, for all I know. In this case, the text you read would be using a poetic comparison to explain zen meditation by using a different word that has the same sound. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 02:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: EDICT  comes up with no kanji that have the on'yomi zen that mean anything like "simple". Perhaps the author was merely being metaphorical?  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 04:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I thought Zen translated as "simple" 

message: copied from user talk:Rick Block
Dear Friends,
 
I'm confused. I wanted to contribute by adding  - as external link to "Zen" and "Buddhism"  - the link to www. bodhidharma.it or in the English version:
http: //users.libero.it/seza/indexgb.html  -  The Flower of Bodhidharma 
I noticed that the link was systematically removed. Now, it even seems to be blacklisted.
Please note The Flower of Bodhidharma is a web site of an Italian Monastery (Musang Am) associated with UBI (Italian Buddhist Union) and linked with many important Temples around the world.  
On the web site are available not only examples of what zen teachings are, but also original teachings of our Master Tae Hye sunim, a  Zen Monk ordained in Korea and now resident in Italy, probably one of the most credited Teacher in Europe.
I wonder if I made any mistake in proposing the link the way I did, maybe there was a misunderstanding due to my inexperience? In this case I am awfully sorry.
Thank you for your help.
Sergio Zaccone (Upasaka Tae Bi)
_/|\_
 ---- --- ---- --- ---
And this was the suggestion:
What should and shouldn't be added to the external links sections of articles is discussed at Wikipedia:External links. After reading this, if you still feel this link should be added to these articles please discuss it on the articles' talk pages. -- Rick Block (talk) 13:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The quoted point (links to official site should be added) means this link should be added to  Bodhidharma Community, not Zen or Buddhism.  The intent sounds more like #3 under Links to avoid, i.e. Links that are added to promote a site. See External link spamming.  In my opinion (and I have no more authority than any other editor), this is not an appropriate link for these articles. -- Rick Block (talk) 13:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link 

message: The introduction to this article is insufficient and misleading. It gives no sense of the Zen school's distinctiveness and what characterises that distinctiveness. All schools of Buddhism worthy of the name emphasise meditation (citta bhavana) so it asserts nothing meaningful or significant to say that Zen Buddhism 'strongly emphasises meditation'. Zen's uniqueness comes rather from its style and method of teaching which originates in the tradition's emphasis on mind-to-mind transmission. As it stands the current introduction seems to shy away from defining Zen in a scholarly and accurate way. User:Langdell June 19th 2006
:Please go ahead and revise it.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 18:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: inadequacy of the existing introduction

message: Where does the use of stone as part of zen meditation begin? 
i AM CURIOUS,since i am studying an interactive project called, 'Zen in a Stone' and i'm wondering where the historical significance of using a stone came from.
Is it a symbol of some kind? and what does it represent? why is it used? something to do with minerals in the earth? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johngenius (talk • contribs) .
I've never heard of stone being used in this way. Do you have a reference explaining what you mean? Jeff Woad 17:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if this has more to do with I Ching than with Zen?  The only half-relevant reference I could find about an interactive project called "Zen in a Stone" on the web was this thing here.  --Andkaha(talk) 19:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History of Stone in Zen

message: Hi Langdell, thanks for your contribution to the Zen article.  I've reverted your suggestions, at least for the moment, as I think they are far too fundamental and indeed contentious to be included without a full discussion on this talk page.  Perhaps you could post, here, your thoughts as to why you think your wording is an improvement on the existing?   My main issue is that you've characterised Zen primarily in terms of Yoga, about which it has little to do.   Zen is essentially a Mahayana Buddhist practice, as the introduction currently says.  I don't deny that the term 'zen' has been misappropriated for a variety of peripheral meanings over the years, but that doesn't in my view mean we should competely unbalance the article by relegating its primary (and indeed technically correct meaning) to paragraph two.  Look at virtually any serious book or web site on Zen and you'll see what I mean.  Also, you've indicated that Zen is short for Zenna.  That's been discussed before and has been removed as there appears to be little or no relaible evidence for it.  Do you know of any?  Regards. --MichaelMaggs 16:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revised introduction by [[User:Langdell]] 

message: Hello Michael. I am sorry to tell you that you are labouring under various misconceptions about what Buddhism is. I can understand why somebody without any real knowledge of the subject might believe that Zen has little to do with Yoga but if you go and read the words of the Buddha in the original Pali you will find the Teacher talking frequently about Yoga as central to the path of practise. The buddhadharma is frequently characterised throughout the Tibetan buddhist world as guru yoga. The problem is that Westerners have various delusions and misconceptions about what zen is and my introduction is a small attempt to redress this. You are incorrect to assert that the word zen is not shortened from zenna. This is such an elementary truth that i can only recommend you read some literature on the subject before making your pronouncements. With the greatest respect the current introduction demonstrates that its author has no real understanding of what characterises and distinguishes zen buddhism from other schools of Buddhism. The existing introduction could be uncontroversially describing the Theravada school. Though Zen and Theravada  have a great deal in common the zen school is unique but the current introduction does not explain why. I can assure you that everything i wrote is factually correct and can be validated by reading any reputable authority on the subject. If there are concerns about the length of the article it may be prudent to have two separate articles, one called 'Zen' and the other called 'Zen Buddhism'. Best wishes. Glenn Langdell. 00:03, 13 August 2006.
:Hello Glenn.  I can see you have some rather definite views on this.  On the question of 'zen' coming from 'zenna', I asked whether you knew of any reliable evidence, and you've replied that this is "such an elementary truth that i can only recommend you read some literature". But Wikipedaia needs solid and reputable sources to be quoted, not simply assertions, however strongly held. You appear to have read widely in this field, so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to find a reputable published source for this statement, surely?  Have a look at WP:VERIFY which explains that Wikipedia requires verifiability, not truth.  Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. On the overall focus of the article, do bear in mind we are writing an English language encyclopedia entry, not a treatese on how the word was originally used in the Pali more than two millennia ago.  As I am sure you know well, there has been more than a thousand years of active Zen buddhist tradition in the monasteries of Japan, Vietnam and elsewhere, a tradition which in the mid twentieth century was introduced to the West. My contention is that the focus of the article should reflect that tradition which is by far the best known (if not understood) by the typical reader of this English-language encyclopedia. It goes without saying that we need academic accuracy, but if 99% of readers understand zen to mean zen buddhism, that's what the article should concentrate on.  It's not correct from an encyclopedic point of view to start off with what to almost all readers would be an extreme minority viewpoint, whether accurate or not.  I think the main article should stay clearly focussed on zen buddhism, but I've no objection if you wanted to do another article on, say "Zen in Yoga". Let's hope we can work constructively in improving this article which, at present, does leave a lot to be desired. Regards--MichaelMaggs 08:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A Response to Mr Maggs

message: Michael. There are two glaring shortcomings of the present article. Firstly, its authors have failed to convey what it is that characterises Zen Buddhism. It is not as the Introduction suggests 'moment-by-moment awareness and seeing deeply into the nature of things' - this is a practise advocated by all schools of Buddhism. Rather what characterises Zen Buddhism is 'transmission outside the scriptures / not relying on words / pointing directly to mind for the realisation of self-nature' (Bodhidharma). The present article as a whole does not convey that its authors understand this fully. If so why is it not mentioned in the Introduction? Secondly. It is impossible to understand what Zen Buddhism is without understanding what the word Zen means. The word Zen (actually Zenna - look it up in the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions) means Dhyana which is of central importance in the teaching of the Buddha and all India's great Yogis - Patanjali, Mahavira, Sankara - the list is rather long. The Buddha calls Dhyana (Zenna) 'the footsteps of the tathagata' which is to say the path beings must take to realise their buddha-nature. This is not 'an extreme minority viewpoint' this is actually rather basic Buddhist teaching. I don't want to hurt your feelings, Michael, but you really need to do some study before acting as an arbiter of truth on the subject. Zenna is yoga. The whole Buddhist path is yoga. Again this is not some perverse academic viewpoint but you would need to understand what yoga is, what Buddhism is and what Zen is to make sense of all this. If you spend a bit of time studying the subject (the wikipedia articles are sufficiently good) you will come to a better understanding. It is true that etymology is not always necessary but in this case it is helpful for people to understand what the word Zen means. Lastly, the reason I have 'rather definite views' (they are actually uncontroversial) is because there is a great deal of woolly-mindedness in the teaching of Zen Buddhism in the West even though scholars such as D.T. Suzuki made great efforts to clear this confusion up. Lost in the romance of 'the other' Westerners have failed to grasp the actual facts about Zen and what it means. I hope the present article will provide one means for this to be redressed. Best wishes.User:LangdellSunday 13th August 2006.
:The last thing I would want to do is to set myself up as any sort of arbiter of truth, on this or indeed any subject.  Wikipedia relies on verifiability, not truth, and asserts the primacy of published sources over the views or private knowledge of any one of us, however expert we may be. I'm perfectly happy with the primary characterization of Zen as being a 'transmission outside the scriptures/not relying on words/pointing directly to mind'.  That is quoted in numerous works, and it should be an extremely easy matter to cite, should anyone dispute it.  I'm much less happy about the Zenna is yoga angle, as an introductory statement, firstly because it's not yet been sourced and secondly because that is simply not the direction the subject is approached by any modern Zen Master that I'm aware of, writing in English.  That may simply reflect my lack of complete knowledge of their writings, of course, but are you able to point to this primary focus within the works of, for example modern(ish) Masters/scholars such as DT Suzuki, Shunryu Suzuki or Thich Nhat Hanh?  Finally, Wikipedia is a collaborative project and I must confess I'm a little concerned that you're quite quick to belittle a fellow editor; I count at least five derogatory ad hominem statements so far concerning my alleged lack of knowledge.  Working together is the key. --MichaelMaggs 17:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Glenn. You are writing about me, and not about the article which I hope we both want to make better.  When I say "I'm perfectly happy with ..", please take that at simple face value. I offer my opinion in the same way that I might say "I'm perfectly happy having tea for breakfast, even though I might prefer coffee". You don't need to agree, others don't need to agree, but that's just what I, personally, happen to think.  The pertinent issue isn't my view as to whether or not X is wrong, but rather that if you assert X you need to supply a valid source to back it up. Perhaps we should bring the conversation to a close, as I don't see we're getting any closer to having a citation we could use for the proposed primary focus on "zenna is yoga". If you haven't already done so, you might like to review WP:RS. All the best --MichaelMaggs 16:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: sources

message: I'd like to thank everyone who's contributed to make this excellent article. It's quite beautiful.<BR>
Perhaps just a few days a year, the page could be left completely blank. Or perhaps a link at the top of the page could point to a blank page called Zen (disambiguation).<BR>
"It takes a long time to understand nothing."
Twang 08:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pardons 

message: the encyclopedia brittanica article in its entirety states that most stories surrounding bodhdiharma are legend. it further does not even credit bodhidharma with founding zen and states that the formation of zen/chan is due to indiginouse developements within china.  quit pushing your pov pro-indian edits freedom skies. not everything came from india.
encyclopedia brittanica
:::"Chinese  Ch'an  (from Sanskrit dhyana, “meditation”), important school of Buddhism in Japan that claims to transmit the spirit or essence of Buddhism, which consists in experiencing the enlightenment (bodhi) achieved by Gautama the Buddha. The school arose in the 6th century in China as Ch'an, a form of Mahayana Buddhism; though introduced centuries earlier, Zen did not fully develop in Japan until the 12th century. In its secondary developments of mental tranquillity, fearlessness, and spontaneity—all faculties of the enlightened mind—the school of Zen has had lasting influence on the cultural life of Japan. 
:::Zen teaches that the Buddha-nature, or potential to achieve enlightenment, is inherent in everyone but lies dormant because of ignorance. It is best awakened not by the study of scriptures, the practice of good deeds, rites and ceremonies, or worship of images but by a sudden breaking through of the boundaries of common, everyday, logical thought. Training in the methods leading to such an enlightenment (Chinese wu; Japanese Satori, q.v.) is best transmitted personally from master to disciple. The methods recommended, however, differ among the various sects of Zen. 
:::The Rinzai (Chinese: Lin-chi) sect, introduced to Japan from China by the priest Ensai in 1191, emphasizes sudden shock and meditation on the paradoxical statements called koan. The Soto (Chinese: Ts'ao-tung) sect, transmitted to Japan by Dogen on his return from China in 1227, prefers the method of sitting in meditation (zazen). A third sect, the Obaku (Chinese: Huang-po), was established in 1654 by the Chinese monk Yin-yüan (Japanese: Ingen). It employs the methods of Rinzai and also practices nembutsu, the continual invocation of Amida (the Japanese name for the Buddha Amitabha), with the devotional formula namu Amida Butsu (Japanese: “homage to Amida Buddha”). 
:::During the 16th-century period of political unrest, Zen priests not only contributed their talents as diplomats and administrators but also preserved the cultural life; it was under their inspiration that art, literature, the tea cult, and the no theatre, for example, developed and prospered. Neo-Confucianism, which became the guiding principle of the Tokugawa feudal regime (1603–1867), also was originally introduced and propagated by Japanese Zen masters. 
:::In modern Japan, Zen sects and subsects claim some 9,600,000 adherents. Considerable interest in various aspects of Zen thought has developed also in Western countries in the latter half of the 20th century, and a number of Zen groups have been formed in North America and Europe."
Bodhidharma article - the other two paragraphs that you can see if you were willing to look-
:::"Considered the 28th Indian patriarch in a direct line from Gautama Buddha, Bodhidharma is regarded by the Ch'an as their first patriarch. Because he taught meditation as a return to the Buddha's spiritual precepts, his school was known as the Dhyana (meditation) sect. The word was converted in the Chinese to Ch'an and in the Japanese to Zen. 
:::The accounts of his life are largely legendary. According to one such story, he cut off his eyelids in a fit of anger after falling asleep in meditation. On falling to the ground his eyelids grew up as the first tea plant. The legend serves as a traditional basis for the drinking of tea by Zen monks in order to keep awake during meditation."
Kennethtennyson 17:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: read the brittanica encyclopedia article in its entirety