Talk:Cardinal (Catholic Church)

message: I have added a paragraph about the politician cardinals - Wolsey, Richelieu and Mazarin. Its not meant to be a criticism 
of the office but I think the article needs an explanation of why three of the most famous cardinals in histo
politicians more than churchmen. Edmilne 07:21, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC)
There was more interface between religious and civil matters then.  "Politician Cardinals" reminded me of those who submitted the veto by certain secular powers of some particular candidate for the papacy; last use of this was in 1903, and then Pius X ramped up the penalty for doing this.
 Carlm0404 (talk) 07:12, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Politician cardinals

message: If, say, the Archbishop of Boston is a Cardinal, is it then correct to refer to him as "the Cardinal of Boston"?
S.
:No. The office of Cardinal does not entail responsibilities over any particular geographic area, unlike (in most cases) the office of Bishop; hence he is not the "Cardinal of Boston". -- SJK.
::You can refer to Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, the Archbishop of Montreal; but not the Cardinal of Montreal. - Montréalais
:: in fact the Archbishop of Boston is the Cardinal Priest of (the church of) St Mary della Victoria.  It would be acceptable, though, to refer to him as the Cardinal Archbishop of Boston, as mentioned elsewhere on this page. Richardson mcphillips1 20:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology 

message: If it doesn't already exist, would a List of notable cardinals be of any use? --KF 18:07, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: List of notable cardinals?

message: The syntactic construction used once on this page, e.g. Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, is not widely understood, and IMO worth a paragraph.  I'm pretty sure i've heard the expression "cardinal archbishop" without a name; is that an error?  Is "Archbishop Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte" better or worse than "Archbishop Jean-Claude Turcotte"?  
Also, i changed a listing to 
*Thich Nhat Hanh (Thich is a title, not a name) (b. 1926) expatriate Vietnamese Buddhist religious leader and spirituality author
in List of people by name: Tf-Th#Thf - Thi and intend in List of people by name: Nh, to have
*Nhat Hanh, Thich (Thich is a title, not a name) (b. 1926) expatriate Vietnamese Buddhist religious leader and spirituality author
By analogy with that 
List of people by name: Mas-Maz#Maz lists
*Mazarin, Cardinal, (1602 - 1661), cardinal and chief minister of France
which i'm inclined to change to 
*Mazarin, Jules Cardinal ("Cardinal" is a title not a name, but appears just before the surname, whether with or without the given name), (1602 - 1661), cardinal and chief minister of France
(Note he is the only Mazarin, so there is no need for a duplicate entry for people who don't know about "jules".)
The article Cardinal Mazarin begins
:Jules Mazarin, born Giulio Mazarini; but best known as Cardinal Mazarin (1602 - 1661)
but am i right that 
:Jules Mazarin, born Giulio Mazarini; but best known as Cardinal Mazarin (or with full formality Jules Cardinal Mazarin) (1602 - 1661)
would be accurate and more thorough? --Jerzy 07:41, 2004 Jan 21 (UTC)
Yes, he wss Italian, then took on the French form of that name, then became a Cardinal.
Neither "Archbishop Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte" or "Archbishop Jean-Claude Turcotte" would be correct; archbishop refers to the individual's position, while Cardinal is his title (unlike, for example, the Archbishop of Louisville, Kentucky, who would correctly be addressed as "Archbishop Thomas C. Kelly" because his title is Archbishop and his position is Archbishop). It would be correct  to refer to the individual as "Cardinal Turcotte," or as "Jean-Claude Cardinal Turcotte, Archbishop of Montreal," but it would be an insult to demote him to "Archbishop Turcotte." It is, however, acceptable to refer to him as the "Cardinal Archbishop of Montreal" or as a "Cardinal Archbishop," because those terms signify that the individual is a Cardinal who is in charge of an Archdiocese. (All Cardinals are not assigned a diocese to govern.)
--Essjay 03:24, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While Cardinals are all ceremonially tied to particular churches or dioceses, they play virtually no role in those areas besides offering their prayers. When I made the statement "Not all Cardinals are assigned to a diocese" the context was: Not all Cardinals serve as diocean bishops, responsible for the daily functioning of a diocese. Many Cardinals, including the former Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, served in the Roman Curia, the Vatican offices of the church. Thus, in the discussion of Archbishop v. Cardinal, this becomes important. Some Cardinals are archbishops of a particular diocese, but others are not, and you would not refer to a Cardinal as bishop or archbishop of their titular diocese. I was not in any way attempting to suggest that the Cardinals are not "humble servants." It was merely a deliniation of which titles apply to which individuals. --Essjay 22:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming conventions

message: Some cardinals are not archbishops due to the fact that they do not lead archdioceses, either residential or titular.  Karl Cardinal Lehmann and Paul Cardinal Shan Kuo-hsi are examples, as they are respectively the Bishop of Mainz and the Bishop of Kaohsiung.  Mainz was an archdiocese but was demoted in 1801; currently, its metropolitan is the Archbishop of Freiburg im Breisgau.  The Diocese of Kaohsiung was erected in 1961 and hasn't been elevated yet; its metropolitan is the Archbishop of Taipei. Pmadrid 18:50, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, Avery Cardinal Dulles is a priest, not even a bishop. Gentgeen 19:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some cardinals are not archbishops 

message: I am unclear on the appropriateness of forms of address for deceased cardinals.  I know while living, they are refered to as His Eminence, and when I have edited a cardinal article, I usually begin it:
:His Eminence John Cardinal Smith (born February 30, 1950) is a...
But should articles about deceased cardinals begin the same way?  I guess this is a bigger question about the retension of forms of address after death — should George VI of the United Kingdom begin with "His Magesty"?  The article Style (manner of address) was not totally clear on the issue.
--Eoghanacht 17:00, 2005 August 15 (UTC)
:I'd say a form of address is for, well, addressing an individual, and you can't easily do that when they're dead.  Go with the title:  "Cardinal John Dearden [or, for the more traditionally minded, John Cardinal Dearden], who was archbishop of Detroit..." "King George VI was the younger brother of King Edward VIII..." —OtherDave 22:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of "His Eminence" for deceased cardinals? 

message: Actually, I've heard a different etymological explanation for "cardinal."  Cardo does not only mean 'hinge' in Latin, but also "wedge."  Some scholars say that prior to 11th century spin, the term originally had a negative connotation.  Cardinals were priests who were "wedged" or stuck into an appointment from the outside--a priest the Vatican appointed to a high rank in a diocese which was not originally his, for example.  This is the explanation given by Diarmaid MacColloch in The Reformation, and in Princes of the Church: A History of the English Cardinals by Dominic Aidan Bellenger and Stella Fletcher (see https://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/book_review.cgi?past-00042 ) Makrina 03:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the term 

message: See my comment on the talk page about creating a list of which Pope elevated their future successors as cardinals (and any other contributions are welcome). Jackiespeel 18:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Links between popes]]

message: "Jonathan Pryce played the fictional Cardinal Houseman in Stigmata (1995)."
The movie was released in 1999 not 1995 and also the link to "Stigmata" links to the act of stigmata rather than the movie "Stigmata"
Though the movie is about a woman who has stigmata if someone was trying to follow the link for the movie they'd get the article on the affliction (or gift if you so desire) of stigmata.
199.67.7.151 16:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect date given on Stigmata movie and wrong link 

message: I was checking the caption I used for an image in medieval cuisine, and I became a bit unsure of a guess I made.  The person sitting to the left of the duke (in blue robe and fur hat) seems to be a man of the cloth, but is he a cardinal or a bishop, or, in fact, neither?
Peter Isotalo 14:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a cleric of any sort. InfernoXV 19:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Ooh. My mistake. I thought you were referring to the man in blue - I see now you are speaking of the chap in red and white. Monastic tonsure, so definitely a cleric of some sort. Red seems to indicate cardinalatial status, though his outfit does seem odd. Perhaps a Carthusian or some other sort of white-friar, but raised to the rank of cardinal? Odd that he's not wearing a red hat if he *is* a cardinal. Perhaps a look at the list of people who hung around the Duke might reveal his identity... InfernoXV 05:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: German Wiki  suggests it's Martin Gouge de Charpaigne, Bishop of Chartres --Heraklitcnl (talk) 18:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bishop or cardinal? 

message: I have come across references to various "senior religious persons" from churches outside the Catholic one being made cardinals (Britannica Yearbooks) - how many are there/have there been, and what is their position? (Can they attend papal conclaves for example?) Jackiespeel 16:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean Cardinal_(Catholicism)#Other_Cardinals? Gimmetrow 22:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cardinals from other churches

message: I've deleted this. Something of such an apparently speculative nature and tone, I think, would have to be sourced to be taken seriously.
I have nothing to do with the above paragraph or said now-deleted material, but JP2 did name a few in-pectore Cardinals and eventually published them EXCEPT FOR THE LAST ONE.  It had to be explained that an in-pectore appointment expires when the pope who made it dies without publishing it, because by then there were many people too young to remember 1963 (John XXIII died and left unpublished his 3 in-pectore appointments of 1960).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlm0404 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: JP2's In pectore cardinal

message: The article says "a Latin-rite cardinal wears scarlet garments because "the blood-like red symbolizes a cardinal's willingness to die for his faith".  However, Voltaire, in the Dictionnaire philosophique (1764) has the 'blood'/'red' part quite differently.  At the Council of Lyons in 1245, at which Innocent IV excommunicated the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, he says the Pope gave the Cardinals red hats as a reminder that they were to 'bathe in the blood of the supporters of the Emperor'.  I must say this sounds more realistic. Some Cardinals, then, could indeed arrange for much blood-letting: such as in 1243 when Cardinal Ranieri of Viterbo had Rome's Imperial garrison slaughtered.  And Cardinal Pietro Capocci who invaded Sicily with the Papal Army in 1250 (albeit entirely routed at the Battle of Cingoli.)
Alipius 03:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Red's origin

message: It seems that every time the Pope announces his intention to held a consistory to create new cardinals there arises the question of when does a Cardinal-Designate become a Cardinal (i.e., could vote in a conclave should it be needed, etc.)
According to Canon Law (351 §2): "Cardinals are created by a decree of the Roman Pontiff, which in fact is published in the presence of the College of Cardinals. From the moment of publication, they are bound by the obligations and they enjoy the rights defined in the law."
So the question becomes, does the announcement (such as on Wednesday 17 October 2007) constitute "publication"?
The Holy Father indirectly made this clear in his introduction to the announcement. He mentions that he is abrogating “by one” the rule of 120 Cardinal Electors. The key point there is “by one”. For today there are 104 Cardinals under the age of 80 and thus Cardinal Electors.
He named 18 new Cardinal Electors. Thus giving us 122 Cardinal Electors if he intended the announcement as the official publication.
It should be noted that Cardinal Sodano turns 80 and loses the right to vote on 23 November.
So, if the Holy Father intends to aborgate the rule “by one” as he clearly stated, then the official publication can not occur before 23 November. (And, of course, 24 November is the stated date for the Consistory itself.)
Thus it becomes clear that the announcement is not "publication" - and so the Cardinal-Designates remain Cardinal-Designates until the consistory.--Dcheney 18:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When does a Cardinal become a Cardinal? 

message: the article refers to a gold ring 'which is traditionally kissed by Catholics when a cardinal is greeted.'  Is this not rather true of the ring of any bishop?  I don't think it is restricted to Cardinals. Richardson mcphillips1 20:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is the traditional greeting of any bishop.--Dcheney 13:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  kissing Cardinal's ring 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
*Support as nom Johnbod 20:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: :Image:Mitrescola.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use ... [remainder of notice removed] BetacommandBot (talk) 20:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. There was no need for this fair use image. Gimmetrow 20:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Mitrescola.jpg

message: Is there no list of Cardinals on Wikipedia? Gavin Scott (talk) 16:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See the See also section here. Gimmetrow 16:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: List of Cardinals

message: Although he is not a bishop, and so could not be assigned to one of the suburbicarian sees, he is entitled to wear the episcopal vestments and other pontificalia (episcopal regalia: mitre, crozier, pectoral cross and ring) and to possess a cardinalatial coat of arms.
I removed the "suburbicarian see part", since it is misleading: None of the Cardinal Deacons and Cardinal Priests are assigned to a suburbicarian see (even though the huge majority of them are bishops). Gugganij (talk) 11:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dulles and suburbicarian see 

message: I replaced Stephen Kim Sou-hwan with Eugenio Sales de Araujo as the Protopriest in charge. The information was found on vatican.va. Nevertheless I'm not sure any more, if this edit was correct. Serveral other sources, claim Kim as Protopriest. Can anyone excplain (and proof) whether age or the order of creation within the consistory counts for internal ranking? Kim was #20 on the list, Sales #22. --Heraklitcnl (talk) 16:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protopriest 

message: There seem to be a number of edits today removing significant information from the article that does not appear elsewhere in the Wiki, as far as I can tell. Is there some reason this is being done out of tbe blue with no prior discussion?--Dcheney (talk) 21:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  16 Feb 09 edits 

message: The history section does not tell us when and why the first cardinals came into existence. They are not mentioned in the Bible or early Christian history. Could someone supply this? APW (talk) 15:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the last paragraph of intro, about the 9th century the chief priests of a parish started being called the "hinge" or cardinal priests. Gimmetrow 18:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Why and when?

message: The article could maybe explain that the word Cardinal is sometimes misused by writers that are talking about any monsignor, any prelate or any employee of the Roman Curia. The idea is that since certain bishops and monsignors dress in red, therefore all these bishops and monsignors must be Cardinals. But, this is obviously a factual inaccuracy. ADM (talk) 03:39, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Misuse of the word

message: I have removed the "Popular culture" section. It was basically a list
of "Actor X played Cardinal Y in movie Z", which brings very little, and is
contrary to WP policy on popular culture (where actual effects, influences,
and truly notable portrayals may be relevant).
94.220.245.253 (talk) 15:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with WP:SPA 94.220.245.253.  My reading of WP:IPC is that the section which appeared in the article was consistent with the policy, the section is relevant to the topic.  "Notability" in the Wikipedia sense refers to the criteria for a topic to be included as a standalone article.  This content conformed to the content guidelines and is of interest to readers of this article. patsw (talk) 01:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed "Popular culture" 

message: What's the best way to handle the wording here? I support Esoglau's edit a moment ago, but as his source notes, B16 increased the number of voting Cardinals to 121 for two months, and the concern of a conclave happening between 11/20/10 and 1/20/26 became moot almost a month ago. Shouldn't the text reflect that in some way?- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 19:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know for how long the number 120 was exceeded under John Paul II.  Two months?  Less?  Longer?  Less one time, longer the other?  Isn't "perhaps calculating that the number would be sufficiently reduced by the time the need for a conclave would arise" enough, without going into details about each and every occasion, including perhaps future ones?  Esoglou (talk) 20:01, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My concern is to avoid the impression that this was some kind of reckless gambit on B16's part. Increasing the size of the college to one elector above the maximum (setting aside the canonical questions such a point raises) for an exceedingly brief period with a definite and proximate expiry is quite different to an open-ended increase. Even if Benedict had died on November 21, a conclave wouldn't have begun until mid-December (Universi Dominici Gregis, no. 49 (John Paul II, 1996)), so the window of potential controversy is incredibly narrow, about five weeks. Hardly a reckless act for someone in good health. - Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 22:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: First, there is no canonical issue about having more than 120 cardinal electors. The Pope, by the very act of creating more than 120, abrogates that law. If there were more than 120 cardinal electors at the time of death of a Pope, they would all be admitted to the conclave. As to the periods of time with more than 120 cardinal electors, they are: 28 Apr 1969-31 Dec 1969 (134-126); 30 Jun 1979 (121); 28 Jun 1988-26 Jul 1988 (121); 21 Feb 1998-28 Feb 1998 (122-121); 21 Feb 2001-31 Jul 2002 (136-121); 21 Oct 2003-11 Dec 2004 (134-121); 24 Mar 2006 (121); and 20 Nov 2010-26 Jan 2011 (121).--Dcheney (talk) 01:21, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be my view of it also, but I'm not a canonist, and I think laymen—even civil lawyers—comment on fine-grained canon law issues at our peril. I don't think we have to resolve that question here, although I suppose that if a reliable source (which in this case means a canonist in an appropriate venue) restates your point, that would help.- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 01:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have inserted an explicit sourced explanation, using the word "dispense" rather than "derogate", since you may perhaps have found the latter word difficult.  Esoglou (talk) 07:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of electors 

message: It is noted that, in place of imposing the red hat, "investiture now takes place with the scarlet biretta".  Could someone write about the earlier conferring of the red biretta?  For example, in some countries the head of state conferred the red biretta; there was a case as late as the 1960s where this was done (the head of state was Francisco Franco of Spain).  An earlier case of head-of-state conferral was in 1914 on new cardinal Janos Csernoch by Archduke Franz Ferdinand, filling in for the aged (over 80) Emperor Franz Josef I; Franz Ferdinand was assassinated a month later (the immediate cause of what we know as World War I).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 18:15, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This was a now abolished privilege of the Emperor of Vienna and the Kings of France and Spain and a privilege demanded also by the King of Portugal (and exercised also by some of their non-royal successors as heads of state).  The Nuncios to those courts were considered to have a right to become cardinals at the end of their missions: those courts considered it an insult if a Nuncio accredited to a post as high as those courts considered themselves to be were "promoted" to anything less than the cardinalate!  Unfortunately, having no reliable source at my disposal that states this, I cannot put it into the article.  Many years ago I did read a scholarly book that recounted the problem that arose when Lisbon, after declaring the Nuncio to Lisbon persona non grata, then, claiming that the Nunciature there should be recognized as of the same level as in Madrid and Paris, would not let the non gratus Nuncio leave the country, unless he were made a Cardinal!  The Pope refused, at least at first, for I don't remember how the curious problem was finally solved.  Esoglou (talk) 20:56, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

text: What cardinal do you mean?  The Nuncio to Lisbon whom I mentioned and whom I now have no means of identifying, must have been of the 17th, 18th or early 19th century and may never have become a cardinal.  Esoglou (talk) 17:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  conferring of red biretta -- some were conferred elsewhere 

message: Pope Francis announced that he will hold his first Consistory to Create New Cardinals on the Feast of the Chair of Saint Peter (22 February 2014). No names or even a number of new cardinals was mentioned.--Dcheney (talk) 01:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistory 2014 

message: today at the UN there were people wearing cardinal vestments but the hats were different colors:
some were red and some were purple, why the difference ?
John5Russell3Finley (talk) 13:59, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly suspect that those with purple hats were actually archbishops and bishops rather than cardinals.--Dcheney (talk) 22:55, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red hat v. Purple hat 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Were catholic cardinals forbidden to marry. Were they supposed to be celibate?
If so, please add this to the information on this page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.176.228.45 (talk) 00:28, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celibacy? 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080511233725/http://www.bpsconfscot.com/Members/tabid/426/Default.aspx to http://www.bpsconfscot.com/Members/tabid/426/Default.aspx
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101124143721/http://diogh.org/bishops_dinardo.htm to http://www.diogh.org/bishops_dinardo.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160708031251/http://www.cardinalrating.com/ to http://cardinalrating.com/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I just wrote this in making a change in the Wikipedia page of Cardinal Reinhard Marx:
>
Normally, I discourage use of "Cardinal Archbishop".  Directly under Reinhard Marx' name at top of this  Wikipedia entry, notice COMMA between those 2 words.  This  provides for his being a Cardinal Priest within the ranks of College of Cardinals.
In a local setting away from Rome, there may indeed be usage of "Cardinal Archbishop", which there would remind people that this particular Archbishop is concurrently a Cardinal.  There was a case where I discovered use of this in a church-related program which had been uploaded; it described someone as secretary to the Cardinal Archbishop. Carlm0404 (talk) 06:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discouraged use of "Cardinal Archbishop" 

message: Given that there are only a handful of Cardinal Bishops, shouldn't the section just name them? - Chieharumachi (talk) 04:22, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the need, this article is about the Cardinals in general, not just the current ones (which is already covered in its own article).Dcheney (talk) 05:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should the Cardinal Bishops be listed? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The section affrims:
Though it is sourced, the proposition is completely false. As of 2021, the Roman Catholic Church has no more than three cardinals whi aren't (yey) consacrated as bishops (source: ).
This practice doesn't observe canon n° 351 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law which is still in force. it states that:
The number of cardinal priests is so limited just because it needs a specific pontifical waiver which, according to the norm, shall be justified exclusively in exceptional cases of:
* people who are prominent for "doctrine, morals, piety, and prudence in action", and
* in presence of serious and well-defined causes which are obstative to the ordinary rite of the episcopal consecration. The section needs to be updated to a set of more recent data about the number of cardinal priests.
Special:Contributions/94.38.236.159 (talk) 00:28, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cardinal priests 

message: I propose merging Prince of the Church into Cardinal (Catholic Church). The former appears to simply be an occasionally-used historical title for the latter. Moriwen (talk) 22:59, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal