Talk:Sufjan Stevens/Archive 1

message: Is Sufjan's music really sparse? Some of his songs are packed with so many vocals and instruments at once, I'd hardly say that's sparse.--Ben moss 22:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sparse?

message: I think there's conflict over whether the new album is Illinois or Come On! Feel The Illinoise!. I've seen both in various places, until I see something official, why don't we just leave it at Come On! Feel The Illinoise! since that's what's up here now.--Ben moss 17:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, especially since the last state album was more than just Michigan, and I have a feeling some of the places calling it Illinois may be doing so just based on the knowledge that it's about Illinois. Euphoria 18:51, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

text: His record label, Asthmatic Kitty Records, sells the album as "Illinois" (http://www.asthmatickitty.com/music.php?releaseID=16), though the cover art has a graphic design with text that reads "Come on feel the Illinoise". Since his label refers to the album as Illinois, though, the title has been changed to reflect this official title. --jackohare 22:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: For the record, I'm now of this same opinion.  Euphoria 03:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Illinois or Come On! Feel The Illinoise!

message: Let's set the record straight here. This is from Sufjan's Record Label, Asthmatic Kitty:
:"What are the actual titles of Sufjan's two "state" albums, and why does each appear to have two different titles?
:1. Michigan and Illinois.
:2. We don't know." 
-- unsigned edit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.237.184.112 (talk) 17:32, 22 June 2005
:Please sign your Talk page edits. I'm not going to feel too bad about this. Note that Amazon is selling them as Greetings from Michigan: The Great Lakes State (the "s" is superfluous regardless) and Illinois, respectively. Pitchfork made the same mistake as Amazon . The cover art for the album clearly encourages interpretation as the longer title, although the way the state name is set apart supports the idea that it's just a graphic treatment surrounding the album title. 
:Anyway, this seems to be a public confusion issue, so the article should address it. --Dhartung | Talk 02:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The albums are: 'Michigan' and 'Illinois' 

message: The first christmas ep is titled Noel! Songs for Christmas - Vol. I.  The second one is Hark! Songs for Christmas - Vol. II.  The third one is Ding! Dong! Songs for Christmas - Vol. III.
:Will you please cite the source that is telling you this?  A google search for "Noel! Songs for Christmas" doesn't reveal anything of note.  Of course Google isn't definitive, but i'd like to see some evidence, please. - Jersyko talk 22:52, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
::I don't have time to do an exhaustive google search just to prove it to you but I know someone that has a real copy of it.  The MP3s that are floating around are tagged wrong.  If you must have some kind of online reference for it I saw it mentioned here and here.
::Sufjan Stevens & Matt Morgan: Noel '01 (CDR/Asthmatic Kitty)
:I've looked around, and I'm satisfied about Noel!, Hark!, and Ding! Dong! being the successive titles. I'm beginning to be disturbed by Sufjan's punctuation habits, though ... --Dhartung | Talk 04:12, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my onw googling, I didn't find anything I would consider authoritative about any single one of the EPs, not even a half-nicely-organized fan discography. --Dhartung | Talk 07:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Two sites:  and . Only the first link has files that work it seems.  It also has a track list if you scroll down.  As they seem to only be in scattered mp3 form and mentioned on a few message boards  is another with a nice track listing, I think they're probably unreleased officially and will remain so sorry,  reveals they were limited, not unreleased. I'm not sure if that means we can provide a link to them as he may re-release them or continue to sell some on tour, in December not now, it being summer and all. --Jellypuzzle 07:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: None of those are "authoritative". See WP:V. --Dhartung | Talk 18:33, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

text: FWIW, it doesn't look like the Christmas eps are included but  this fan site has a discography.
Isn't it patently absurd to list "unreleased" records under the heading "other releases"? --Albrecht Conz 20:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christmas eps 

message: Hey, I added the song "Lord God Bird" from the NPR website.  It's a great song and I think it will spread easier if listed here as well. --CPQD 06:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other works 

message: I made a template (basing on Template:Radiohead) to use on Sufjan Stevens-related pages. Suggestions? --Gika 14:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like the term "regular albums", somehow. I'm not certain this is really needed for an individual artist, either (as opposed to a band, with side projects, former members, etc.), but I suppose it doesn't hurt anything. --Dhartung | Talk 22:30, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template 

message: i'm unclear what genre this singer belongs to... folk, indie rock? Also, is he a christian musician (evidently, he is a christian, but do his songs focus on christianity)? Gflores Talk 03:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *I think of what he does as more of an indie-pop rather than folk.  It would be helpful if I could find a tour schedule.  Does he play in rock clubs or coffee houses?  What sorts of festivals does he play?  What radio shows play his material?  I suspect he does not fit in with the more traditional singer-songwriters. -MrFizyx 20:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indie-pop, definitely, with reviews from Pitchfork and appearances at indie-oriented festivals. It's a cliche to call someone genre-defying, but he is hard to classify. His songs are very clearly folk-influenced in that they often tell stories or, in the state albums, populist sentiments, but there are also electronica influences (more in Illinois) and he's done one EP that's completely electronica (Enjoy Your Rabbit). Some people call what he and a few others do chamber pop but that isn't a widely used term. --Dhartung | Talk 21:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed him from :Category:American folk musicians.  There appears to be no :Category:American indie-pop musicians and I'm not expert enough in that genre to populate one.  He might fit in :Category:American alternative musicians.  What do you think? -MrFizyx 21:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would keep him in folk, and add indie rock and electronica. Groups I would consider quite similar (or of similar appeal) such as smog, The Postal Service, The Unicorns, and others are listed as "indie rock", even though it's a stretch to say that any of them is really working in the "rock" genre. Certainly there's no requirement that he be in only one musical genre category. --Dhartung | Talk 03:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that I agree.  I'm not looking to pigeonhole Stevens, but when I look at the names in :Category:American folk musicians or :Category:American folk singers I see people who normally appear at folk festivals and small folk clubs (or once did so).  Stevens doesn't have much in common with these groups.  Don't categories become less useful when the acceptance for inclusion becomes too wide? -MrFizyx 19:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's judge the music by what it sounds like, not by where the musician plays or doesn't play his music.  If you've ever listened to "Decatur" from "Illinois," I don't know how you can claim that Stevens doesn't have a quite folky sound on at least some songs.--Hraefen 21:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gee whiz I must be sounding like some sort of folk snob, but I'm not a purist really, just trying to help sort out some gray areas.  I suppose genre should be reflected in how the music sounds, the venue where it is played, the artist's influences and marketing.  I don't think a few folky-sounding songs alone make an artist a folk singer.  I confess that I'm less familiar with Stevens than I am with most of the artists in the folk category.  I very much enjoyed a concert that I listened to online and I've been on the waiting list at my local library for nearly 2 mo. to borrow Illinois, so I suppose I should reserve judgement.  I recently was trying to describe the "50 states project" to Chuck Brodsky and Jonathan Byrd.  These guys know all of the other obscure acts on the folk/singer-songwriter circuit, but they had never heard of Sufjan Stevens.  This is not a knock against Stevens, he just exists in a different musical world. None-the-less those of you who know his music best should feel free to add him to categories where you feel he truly belongs. -MrFizyx 22:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  genre? 

message: There's a link under "Fifty States Project" saying that Asthmatic Kitty said Sufjan wasn't going to release an album for each state in their article for the Mews Too compilation.  I followed this link and found nothing.  Am I missing it, or was it removed?  If so, can we remove that paragraph?--Evisruc 10:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mews Too Link/50 States 

message: I wanted to explain my reversion of the article. The previous edit claimed "A Good man Is Hard To Find" was unreleased, despite the fact it appears on Seven Swans. Even if this had been fixed, it did not seem relevant. -- Elusivespoon 18:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc 

message: The song was written in response to an NPR piece about the ivory-billed woodpecker not about Sufjan himself.
*Have you listened to the piece?  There are two - one is about the ivory-billed woodpecker, and one is about Sufjan and how he writes his music.  The piece about Sufjan and how he creates music is what the song was written for.
**I edited this to make it clear the piece is about Sufjan while the song is about the woodpecker. Hopefully this makes everyone happy. -- Elusivespoon 19:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lord God Bird 

message: There is some Internet talk right now about how the whole thing about Sufjan having a baby with Rosie Thomas just being an April Fools-induced rumor.  It might be best to mention that it's only a rumor as of yet. Check out this post on Buzzgrinder
Perfect13thStep 21:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rosie Thomas baby rumor 

message: I'm pretty sure the entire bit about his name being Armenian is bullshit.
Isn't he a persian christian... I've heard the name is Persian and means something about with sword.  I'll do research into this, I'm almost certain it's true.
Him being persian would make sense  in Detroit as well. (fullerton)
It appears the Washington post agrees with me:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/22/AR2005092200655.html
and the Los Angeles Times:
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/music/articles/0813stevens.html
So... I'm changing it.  I hate when things are just absolutely and blatantlt incorrect. Come on, fact check people!
oh wait... I that was endnoted... now I have to research this more.  (sigh)  The armenian thing is just random and weird.
*Lets get our facts straight before you start to bestow your pompous bullshit better-than-thou posts on the talk page.  If you read how it is phrased within the article, it refers to what Sufjan has stated himself and not necessarily a scholar on the origin of names.  It is then properly end noted to the article where Sufjan states it.  Add something from the Post article that disagrees with it, similar to what is already in the following sentence, and improve the article if you want to.  And sign your talk posts.--Fresh 00:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If it REALLY is pronounced as it says it is, then it is an Arabic name, though its more usual translation would be Sufyan, and means devoted. Its a name that pre-dates Muhammad, so its not Muslim. --Irishpunktom\talk 21:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've edited the section on his name, and the footnotes section to include the WaPo article.  I am leaving out any reference to the actual meaning of the name in Arabic and/or Persian because I have found conflicting accounts.  Ab85 02:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the name Sufjan 

message: Sufjan is a Christian and a Musician, but NOT a Christian musician.  Sources:
*"His faith shines through every note of his music - in his wonder at every tiny yet monumental scrap of human endeavour, and in his ultimate (if at times shaky) acceptance of a celestial Big Plan that will rid us of what he has described as 'all the nonsense of suffering' - but it's as far removed from 'Christian rock', with all the deadly dull connotations of that phrase, as it's possible to be.
'I feel like I'm doing a disservice to myself, and to my convictions, in speaking publicly about these things, because they're too easily misconstrued,' he says, bristling at the very thought of elaborating on his faith."
*"I don't think music media is the real forum for theological discussions," says Stevens. "I think I've said things and sung about things that probably weren't appropriate for this kind of forum. And I just feel like it's not my work or my place to be making claims and statements, because I often think it's misunderstood." So Stevens apparently believes the "Christian artist" stamp is a deal breaker. Likewise his publicist, who reminded me that "Sufjan has asked that the topic of religion not be discussed in interviews from this point on."
--M@rēino 17:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, when I read "Christian musician," I didn't think "Oh, he makes Christian music."  I thought "Oh, he's a Christian who's a musician."  If the category is meant to be for the Amy Grant/Jars of Clay/DC Talk type of musicians, then I agree, leave it off.  If the category is merely "Musicians who identify as Catholic," then it should stay on. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 17:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Added a link yesterday.  --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 22:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What link?  List the link here please. This is what i have found: "I'm more Episcopalian" -- Pitchfork interview 
**This is getting VERY interesting!  Thanks for the most recent link!  I put in a stub section about Sufjan's religion.  If we can get to the bottom of this and produce a thorough and accurate account of his religious beliefs, I think that this could easily turn this article into a WP:GOOD candidate. --M@rēino 20:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Those were good edits. I didn't want to touch this section because I don't have Swans. Also, my impression is that the Stevens family moved around, religiously, so there may not be one answer. --Dhartung | Talk 21:38, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I added a request for assistance at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity. --Dhartung | Talk 21:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: * "In Brooklyn, Stevens splits time between two churches: one Episcopal, one Presbyterian." (Harp, Jul/Aug 06)
In the AV club article, http://www.avclub.com/content/node/23410, he says he goes to an Anglican catholic church, which is different than Catholic.  It's a type of "high church" closer to Episcopal, but with more traditional methods of worship and such. Amandamae 20:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian Music 

message: Could someone from here go help make this merger happen?  Thanks. -MrFizyx 00:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, there wasn't that much to do! Thanks for the heads up. --Dhartung | Talk 00:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Asthmatic Kitty]] v. [[Asthmatic Kitty Records]]? 

message: A recent edit by an anon added a "criticism" section to this article.  While I believe that such a section could possibly be appropriate, the section as written violates Wikipedia policy and guidelines.  While I believe this violation is self-evident, I am posting the explanation for my reversion here because of a message left by the anon on my talk page.    The relevant policies violated by the section as written include verifiability and no original research.  Avoid weasel words and citing sources are also relevant.  First, the section references "many people" who compare Stevens to Alan Keyes without a source, thus violating the two policies I mention above.  The wording "many people" is actually one of the examples given at WP:AWW of weasel words, and the phrasing is repeated throught the section ("Many Illinoisians" & "many residents").  The only source cited in the section is in reference to an online review of one of Stevens' albums.  The review says "some people just found the man and his music to be flat-out boring", but then goes on to give the album a positive review.  The review does not cite a source for its claim.  In any event, the source does not support the claim made in the section added to this article that "The album itself has also been called "boring" by journalists", or any other claim made in the section, for that matter.  This is an easy call per Wikipedia policy. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 17:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Jersyko is correct; the section as written is not encyclopedic. A negative review of Stevens and Avalanche was recently posted on All Music Guide, a better starting point for such material. --Dhartung | Talk 20:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism section 

message: "...his influences are very broad, including electronica, the jazz of Vince Guaraldi, and the academic minimalism of Reich and Glass."
I recognize the value in discussing musical references, but these need sources. A brief look around Wikipedia reveals a rather worrying tendency among editors of articles on musicians to include an ever-expanding list of inferences comprising artists and genres that they felt were similar. This cannot happen here.
We must recognize that musical inspiration is an extremely intangible and unverifiable animal. The most we can probably do is say things like "Critic X draws a link between artists A and B, finding that... [and here's his/her explanation]", or "In a poll, listeners agreed that Sufjan's music seemed influenced by...". If we do find some legit article which categorically states that Sufjan drew inspiration from certain genres and artists while working on the album, then perhaps it can go in the article without attribution (although certainly with a reference). Until then I'm adding a  notice. Omphaloscope » talk 00:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added them all back in with sources, and the two amazon.com sources are for their Editorial Reviews and not for user reviews. JohnRussell 23:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influences 

message: As far as I know, this hoax was debunked two days after it came out. If there's a more reliable source debunking the debunking, it should be cited per biographies of living persons policy. --Dhartung | Talk 21:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baby rumor 

message: I thought the line in Decatur was "It's the great IL" which seems to fit better in an ode to the richness of Illinois that people might overlook - "Stand up and thank her - it's the great IL!"  While there's lots of religious imagery in many of his lyrics, there is very little in Decatur.
Has Sufjan Stevens ever posted "official" lyrics?  Given the complexity of so many of the songs, it would be nice to know the true lyrics, undistorted by our own ears.  Jzerocsk 20:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a humdinger of a mondegreen. The line is "It's the great I am". I am is another way of referring to the Biblical God (see the article on I am for more details). Sufjan has the "official" lyrics written in the booklet that accompanies Illinois. If you don't have the booklet, this and most other song lyrics can be found on the internet: just call up Google and type in the name of the artist and the song (or half a lyric), and you should be able to dig up the full transcription. You can also find the lyrics to "Decatur, or Round of Applause for Your Stepmother" at SongMeanings. Hope this was of some help. Omphaloscope » talk 22:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: here you can find full transcripts of Stevens' lyrics as they were printed on the booklet. --Gika 23:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Gika.  Unfortunately, most of the lyrics one finds online at places like sing365 and songmeanings seem to be submitted by users, so I never trust them to be correct...in fact I often KNOW they are not correct!  I am (no pun intended) familiar with the Biblical phrase, which is precisely why I did not think that was the actual wording - it just doesn't really fit the theme of the rest of the song - but I guess that's how it was written!  Jzerocsk 13:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Decatur'' - It's the great _____? 

message: Template: has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Gpollock 06:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TfD nomination of Template:{{ucfirst:Michigan (album)}} 

message: As has been mentioned above, Sufjan notes he goes to an "Anglican catholic church". In the article that was changed to "Anglican" on the grounds that Anglicanism does not equal Catholicism.
The problem with this argument is that "Catholic" and "catholic" mean different things. Uppercase "Catholic" means Holy Roman Catholic Church. Lowercase "catholic" literally means "broad or wide-ranging". In the sense of church, not all Anglicans regard themselves as strict Protestants; some see themselves as having liturgical connections to the Catholic Church, though not formal or necessarily theological ones. As such, "Anglican catholic" is a perfectly feasible description of a church. (I should know; I attend one.) El T 05:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Anglican catholic" 

message: Someone should add a section that covers some of the usual members of Sufjan's band, maybe with a short blurb and a list of other bands/projects that they are involved with. I am currently looking for information on the web, but if someone else wants to put something like this up, I think it would be a great addition to this article. Fmalcangi 04:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illinoismakers/ Michigan Militia/ Band of Butterflies