Talk:Caron/Archive 1

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:The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was no consensus, with 8 for caron and 6 for háček. (I'd personally be for the latter, but meh.) —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 09:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

message: * Oppose: I don't really care which of the other three is chosen, but this word has "too many" diacritics to be an English word. In particular, the čárka over the á represents vowel length, a concept completely foreign to native English speakers. —Bkell 21:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Háček

message: * Support: its what most english typographical documents call this diacritic Plugwash 22:28, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Caron

message: The plural of háček in English is háčeks. There have been several changes to the Czech form, háčky, but this is incorrect. I am looking in a copy of Webster’s Third New International Dictionary.   — Chris Capoccia  T⁄C July 1, 2005 12:33 (UTC)
:Geez, that's really fascinating! But would you care to pin-point where in the atricle anyone mentions any plural forms in English? And any English-speaking person with any brains could tell that a plural is usually made by adding an 's' at the end of a word. And what's with people and trying to define other languages through usage of English dictionaries? That's like trying to define an obscure Lithuanian word (or something), through a Macquarie (Australian English) dictionary. -- Hexagon1
::It is actually fascinating, because it lends support to the notion that háček is actually an English word, as well as a Czech one.  That an English language dictionary uses standard English rules for pluralization on what so many seem insistent on calling a "Czech-only" word does in fact give weight to the argument that it's the right term to use here.  You know what my copy of Oxford American Dictionary gives for the plural of caron?  Nothing, cause it ain't listed.CzechOut 23:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, I completely forgot about this ancient discussion, this was, like, when I first signed up. I was just rather surprised someone was telling me to make a plural by adding an 's'. And I'm a big 'háček' arguer, don't go all anti-'caron' on me. :D +Hexagon1 (talk)  02:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Plural of Háček

message: Where have all the diacritic marks, located below the "edit" screen, for insertion into articles, gone?  The caron isn't there any more, nor most others.  Badagnani 08:56, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where have carons gone below edit screen? 

message: According to the Handbook, the Czech 'a' is represented as 'ʌ' in the IPA? And aren't IPA transcriptions supposed to appear in slashes, not brackets? Could anyone verify this and correct the IPA transcription of háček if I'm right (from [haːʧɛk] to /hʌːʧɛk/)? Thanks +Hexagon1 (talk) 11:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No-one seems to care what I have to say, so I changed it myself. +Hexagon1 (talk) 02:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It is ['ɦaːʧɛk] in Czech, that however does not mean that the established English pronunciation should be the same - for the beginning, there is no [ɦ] sound in any(?) English dialect. Slashes are for "broad" transcription, so (again) in Czech, if you use slashes, /ɦaːʧɛk/, /haːʧɛk/ or even /haːʧek/ are acceptable transcriptions since there is no contrast in the phonemes. Not so in English. If you use brackets, you probably have to care about particular English dialect you want to use, with slashes, you wrote down just the most appropriate representations of phonemes. rado 15:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

text: AFAIK, you use [] for a more or less exact phonetic representation but // to show the phonemes that account for it.—Wikipeditor 17:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the the Czech 'a' an IPA 'a' or 'ʌ' 

message: This has been moved to top of page, following procedure described in Wikipedia:Requested moves. -- Curps 16:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official Move Vote 

message: Since clearly the hachek-phile Wikipedians seem so insistent on calling this mark by its Czech name, instead of its English name, perhaps the best solution is Solomonian:  Split this into two articles.  A Velvet Diacritic Divorce.  One article, styled  h, a-with an acute accent, c-with a caron, e, k will be devoted exclusively to hachekigraphia, and its glorious uses in the Czech language, and seeing to it in time that the English Wikipedia has every instance of Czech replaced with C-with a caron, e, ch as a single glyph sorted after h.  Of course, there still won't be a Czech wikipedia article on hachek, but the English one will be there.
Meanwhile, another article, called caron will stick with the usages of the diacritic in every language except Czech, particularly Finnish, Slovak, Estonian, Livonian, Croatian, Slovenian, Friulian, Romany, Bosniak, Serbian written in Latin script, Macedonian written in Latin script, Karelian, Sami languages, older Chinese tonal accent marking (where it was NEVER called hachek, but caron or wedge), Americanist phonetic notation, Lithuanian, Sorb (both Upper and Lower Lusatian), in a number of conlangs and artlangs, old linotype indexes, font indexes,.... --Sturmde 19:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support the second paragraph; perhaps the Czech nationalists will consider whether they have earned the first. Septentrionalis 22:09, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They haven't even put even one of the three most common spellings used in the English language of the Czech háček (viz., "hacek" and "hachek" and "haček") in this article.  Gene Nygaard 05:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly dispute Sturmde's continued assertion that háček (or some less-accented version of the word) is not the English name.  This is a POV statement that can't be verified with any commonly-available English language dictionary.  Just because there are different words for it in other Slavic languages doesn't preclude the possibility that English has taken the name from Czech.  We could have taken it from Slovak, for instance, but we didn't.  It came into English in the same casual, don't-mean-to-offend-other-languages way that robot and pistol did.  There are different names for things all over the world, but at the end of the day, words often pass into English (or even just one form of English) from a single source.  American English uses the word apartment because we chose to anglicize the French version of the word; the British call it a flat because they didn't.  It doesn't make Americans believers in the "glorious" French language; it's just how it was.   There are thousands of words in the English language that can be traced directly to another language, when other words for the same thing existed at the same time in other languages.  I strongly oppose this Dissolution of Czechoslovakia thing, and would ask you to please stop making statements which seem to vaguely imply that those who support calling this thing by its English name are guilty of some sort of Czech nationalism.  (And I'll spare you the trouble, that is richly ironic because my name is CzechOut 00:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, this business of there being no accented words being allowed in English is unsupported POV as well.  It's completely proper, in English, to use the words "résumé", "déjà vu", and "sautée" without italicization to indicate it's a "foreign" word.  English language dictionaries offer the unaccented versions, when they do at all, as secondary spellings, not the main listings.  MIcrosoft Word's spellchecker set to American English automatically corrects a user's typing to include accents.  While it does not add accents to the word "hacek", it doesn't mark it as incorrectly spelled.   Caron, by contrast comes up in Word with a big, fat red line underneath it.  And, in typing my many responses to this article in my browser, the only time hacek has come up as misspelled is when I've done it with no accent marks at all.CzechOut 01:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: So what happens if you type "inverted hat" or "inverted circumflex"?  What does your spellchecker do?  How about making h \acute{a} \check{c}ek \, this way, using math markup?  Guess that suggests another name it is known by in English, at least in the field of mathematics, doesn't it?  That's "check", not "czech", by the way.  Gene Nygaard 03:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Proposal 

message: Okay, the vote is over, but I'd still like to know if caron appears in any English dictionary at all.  Can anyone confirm that it is or isn't in the OED?  —Michael Z. 2006-03-31 14:39 Z
:It's not in OED Online, which is a superset of what's in the printed version. OED is just based on attested use though so it'll probably show up as soon as an editor finds out about it and has a chance to write up an entry. DopefishJustin 03:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caron in the OED 

message: I din't get a chance to reply on the vote, so I'll reply here. I never stated that caron doesn't exist, if you think that, re-read my posts here. I never said háček was centuries old - in fact I disctinctly said the contrary - "(I'm not saying it was háček either, but háček at least came into English earlier by far then caron)" in reference to the word used centuries ago to talk about the háček. Why do you keep claiming that computer usage should be preffered when talking about the háček? It is a typographical mark. It is NOT a computer mark. No, we shouldn't overlook the computer use, but we should give overwhelming priority to the one field the háček is most relevant to - typographics. And typographics has for ages and ages used háček. And the few (computer) websites that use caron can be summed up nicely, as you have done, in three or four links. +Hexagon1 (talk)  02:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there did seem to be an over-emphasis on the fact that many dictionaries have, for whatever reason, lagged in adding the word.  That did seem to be a major component in arguments made against it.  I still don't agree that typographers have any natural monopoly interest in this topic.  Anyone who sees, say, the name "Slobodan Milošević" written out (as per Serbian in Latin script) has an interest in being able to give a name to the accent on the "s".  It's a matter of broad interest, not limited to specialists in any one narrow field.  The issue is, what is the most common name for it in overall English-language usage. -- Curps 08:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, whatever. I still think that háček should be used here, as typographers DO have a monopoly in the field. Your Alice who wants to name the caron in Milošević has just entered the field of typography. But I don't this anyone has much interest in this anymore - not after the vote, so let's all drop this everyone until any major revisions regarding the háček/caron/wedge/inverted circumflex/v-thing. The reason for my posting here after the vote is that I'm one of those people who get upset if they don't get the last word. So, peace? :D +Hexagon1 (talk)  11:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK then. -- Curps 11:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to Curps 

message: http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn27/
Caron is merely a technical name for "hacek". I suggest move to hacek. Reopen the survey. ackoz  07:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unicode 

message: Please check http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn27/ before you vote.
# Support per above. ackoz  08:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: Please check http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn27/ before you vote.
#Oppose, like last time. This vote has been held before; and there's nothing new here. Septentrionalis 17:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: *Neutral the page should probably be at háček, deferring to Daniels. Nevertheless, the poll should probably be restarted after people have discussed this for longer presenting their sources. I would like to further note that comments such as 'Caron is geek newspeak, created by someone who didn't know the name for "hacek" not a real term' are not condusive to a harmonious editing environment. That comment is deliberately antagonistic and I would recommend the closing admin discount the vote for incivility. - FrancisTyers · 00:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral