Talk:Libertarian Marxism

message: I removed the fragment "most of currents of trotskyism or bolshevik-leninism" from the passage on currents in Lib Marxism, since their inclusion contradicts the opening paragraph, "emphasizes the ability of the working class to forge its own destiny without the need for a revolutionary party or state to mediate or aid its liberation." A revolutionary party and state being some of the fundamental characteristics of Trotskyism/Leninism. 59.101.192.54 12:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Trotskyism and "Bolshevik-leninism"

message: Thee are no real references to this other than to Chris Wright's 'map' which just claims people as libertarian marxist. Is there anything that supports such a loose definition of libertarianism - being 'opposed' to the state? Most liberatrians are in favour of some sort of state and, for example, most of these Marxists were supporters of the 1917 revolution in Russia whuch clearly extablished a state. --Duncan (talk) 19:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  This website has no sources save a blog (libcom.org)  The claim is original research and none of the thinkers self-identify as libertarian Marxists. Mrdthree (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: agreei will mark it for deletion  Darkstar1st (talk) 19:50, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have added the appropriate citations for this article and as a point of clarification libcom.org is not a blog.  It contains a vast library of works related to Libertarian Socialism/Libertarian Marxism. Anatoly-Rex (talk) 19:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this original research? 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Libertarian Marxism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "EB":
From Socialism: social democracy. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved: 25 November 2012.
From Freudo-Marxism: "Wilhelm Reich", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2012: "From 1956 to 1960 many of his writings and his equipment were seized and destroyed by FDA officials. In the 21st century some considered this wholesale destruction to be one of the most blatant examples of censorship in U.S. history."
*That over six tons of literature were burned, see Sharaf 1994, p. 460: some literature was burned in June 1956, then six tons was burned in August.
From Vladimir Lenin: 
From Che Guevara: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 23:25, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Libertarian Marxism]] 

message: I came this page to learn about Libertarian Marxism after hearing Yanis Varoufakis claim this is his intelectual position. Given his importance I thought it might be worth adding the page but I am a fish out of water in these fields of economic philosophy so thought I'd leave it to others to jusdge if and where to add it. He probably makes the claim in several places but I heard it 3minutes into this radio interview:
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/01/29/talking-to-phillip-adams-on-the-abcs-lnl/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ausrussell (talk • contribs) 18:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis claims to be libertarian Marxist 

message: the primary source  appears to be a knockoff of the better known  or even  blogs.  the articles are pdf blog posts by writers of little prominence. perhaps we could find a better source, and until then i will add a tag to the cite. the author of this blog post Wayne Price does not appear to be "scholarly" or "peer-reviewed" Darkstar1st (talk) 21:38, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  primary source is an obscure blog 

message: does anyone here know what chapter or page supports this citation? Darkstar1st (talk) 22:06, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: actually all of the sources in the lead could use some clarity, none mention page number or quote. Darkstar1st (talk) 22:15, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  secondary source needs page number 

message: This is one of the most bloated Original Essays that I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Speaking of "Maxism-Leninism" (a post-1924 term) as an ideology opposed by early Left Communism is a particular howler. Rather than attacking this essay with a machete, it's probably best just letting it choke itself with layers and layers of unreadable prose... Not Wikipedia's finest hour, by any stretch... Carrite (talk) 16:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: People like Anton Pannekoek and Paul Mattick critiziced Lenin directly and those they influenced did the same. Perhaps we should say just "Leninism" instead of "marxism-leninism" although marxism-leninism, as the state ideology embraced by state socialist regimes inspired in the USSR, was also rejected by libertarian marxists. So this is the reason why that should stay. Anyway i am open to discuss these issues here with the user that has commented here but i will ask him to clarify his criticisms while not being afraid to be more extensive in his interventions. But also if he could bring reliable references to support his arguments, that could help his arguments actually becoming part of the text.--Eduen (talk) 06:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Ugh

message: This article needs to point out that in the US, "liberal" means leftist while elsewhere, "liberal" means libertarian in the US. And in the US, "libertarian" means "classic liberal", that is Mises, Menger, and Smith, while elsewhere "libertarian" means "leftist".
As this article currently stands, it can only serve to confuse people. RussNelson (talk) 13:40, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed, the entire article should be merged into an existing article/s Darkstar1st (talk) 15:32, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Libertarian vs Liberal vs Classic Liberal 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Following the above discussion with @Crashprop, @PerpetuityGrat and @North8000, I've decided it prudent to redirect this article to a subsection of the article on libertarian socialism, which itself has now been substantially reduced and rewritten in order to excise copious original research.
Through looking into this, I've only found two sources on the subject that are both substantial, clearly about the subject and reliable. These being Löwy and Besancenot (2018) and Price (2004). Together, they provide very little to go off and present a lot of red flags when making an article specifically about "Libertarian Marxism". From the introduction to Löwy and Besancenot (emphasis mine):
As Price's article was written before this Wikipedia article and the Libcom.org blog post that it was clearly based on heavily, it provides the best insight into what "Libertarian Marxism" has been considered historically. Here, Price uses it synonymously with "Autonomist Marxism" and identifies a number of historical tendencies from left communism that he found displayed libertarian characteristics. 
I thought there might have been something in Ernesto Screpanti's Libertarian Communism: Marx, Engels and the Political Economy of Freedom, but it never uses the term "Libertarian Marxism", instead exclusively using the term "Libertarian Communism".
If anyone has any issues with this action, please bring it up here, ideally with reference to verifiable and reliable sources. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I would oppose this move. Libertarian Marxism is definitely a thing. Let me look at the sources here and comment again. BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

text: If that's the case, then what should we do with categories like :Category:Libertarian Marxism and :Category:Libertarian Marxists whose existence suggests that there is a distinct meaning? Charles Essie (talk) 17:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

text: PS I've moved the old article to my sandbox here and may work on adding refs. Please feel free to edit. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

text: I know it's been a while but I don't see how the term is any more ambiguous than "Democratic socialism" or "Libertarian socialism". Charles Essie (talk) 17:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ambiguous" is a stronger more negative term that I didn't use and wouldn't use.  My point is that it is just a term and, unlike some other terms, doesn't define a distinct topic. And so wording shoulld reflect that. North8000 (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I never thought of "ambiguous" as negative term and I certainly never meant put words in your mouth and for that I apologize. I was just saying that I don't get how "Libertarian Marxism" is any different than any other umbrella term for similar ideologies. Charles Essie (talk) 21:30, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem......I didn't take it in any way that implies a problem. And I agree....all of those terms have the same issues.  I guess the really really short version of what I was trying to say is that, (unlike most Wikipedia articles), this is an article about a term, not a topic.   Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 04:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Closing remarks