Talk:Transcendental Meditation/Archive 9

message: Well, I'm back after a week and there is a reasonable amount of new discussion.  Question:  If I reply or make a comment in a previous "thread", how will anyone know I did so?   Is it necessary to track History to tell that someone has made a comment?  Thanks! Tanaats 02:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Tanaats. Welcome back. Hope you had a good vacation. To answer your question, as far as I know History is the only way to tell what comments have been added in previous threads. I do regularly check the History so will be alert to any comments you make.  TimidGuy 12:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Newbie question re: keeping track of new comments 

message: How about changing "...teaching of the theory and philosophy of the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)..." to ..."teaching of the theory and philosophy of the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)..."?  Otherwise the reference to SCI will be a mystery to many readers  Tanaats 20:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great idea. Please do.TimidGuy 22:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done! Tanaats 01:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need reference to "SCI" 

message: I have added a quot from a Canadian Newspaper by former TM teacher (and current wiki editor) Joe Kellet/Tanats. Nice interview Tanaats- I had not seen it before.
I also included a further refference from the cult abuse and policy research newsletter which clarified exactly what the judge didn't like about the puja. Sethie 18:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Added further info

message: The sentence "However, no TM teacher has the qualifications to accurately screen for psychological problems" is not 100% accurate since some of the zillions of TM teachers who were trained might have been psychologists or psychiatrists. So I've changed it to "However, TM "teacher training" does not include training on how to accurately screen for psychological or psychiatric problems". Tanaats 21:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're a good editor. Earlier I noticed that maybe there should be a citation for this. I just added the tag. The first sentence should also have a source.TimidGuy 21:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Psychological training 

message: At least twice this article quotes allegations made in a suit in 1986 alleging harmful effects of TM. A lower court ruled in favor of the plaintiff and made an award. The suit was appealed and the appellate court dismissed that particular suit. I wonder whether it's legitimate to quote these allegations when a court has ruled that they were unfounded.TimidGuy 16:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did the court rule that the allegations were unfounded? Or were the allegations made, and the OVERALL case was dismissed? Sethie 17:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  There are a number of reasons for dismissing a suit other than "the allegations are unfounded".  Tanaats 02:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: As a matter of fact, I have been under the distinct impression that appellate courts do not rule on issues of "fact", but only on issues of "law".  I could be wrong.  Tanaats 02:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW, the fraud issue was concerning whether or not the plaintiff had been promised that he would learn to float within some definite period of time, rather than in principle since the TMO teaches that the Yogic Flying technique can lead to floating and has sometime in the past.Sparaig 23:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it valid to cite allegations made in a suit that was dismissed? 

message: One example is moving the study by Alexander without first discussing. There's a guideline that I'm trying to find that deals specifically with article structure and whether criticisms should be integrated or in a separate section. Another example is the question regarding whether it's appropriate to cite allegations made in a suit that was found to be without merit and dismissed by an appellate court. Also, whether it's relevant to cite an award of a lower court if that decision was overturned by the appellate court.TimidGuy 17:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After your quest, pick ONE thing and I will address it. Sethie 17:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other issues

message: Thank you for pointing out that the study was already there. Instead of deleting the new insertion of mine, which took out a quote and a nice summary, I have combined the two and moved it to the new section. Thank you- I had missed that. Sethie 17:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I didn't see the repeat

message: I reverted the last 2 edits by Timidguy because: a)he still not clear who the source of the article is, hence I do not belive he is in a position to evaluate it; b)it is a near direct quote from a source; c)I posted why I restructured something, and he did not respond to it. Instead he went ahead and has reverted it twice now (as have I). d) He has not followed the guidelines posted on this talk page, to disucss changes after they are made them for either of those reverts. Sethie 21:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I explain my edits above.TimidGuy 13:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When I look above I do see you saying why you don't like the cog section where it is- so I stand corrected, you commented on one of your 2 reverts. Sethie 15:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: My recent reverts

message: The citations for the Pagels quotes were text (like "[70]") rather than links.  So I added live links as citations.  Sorry, I forgot to log in before making the edits. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanaats (talk • contribs) 18:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Tanaats. I'd noticed that too and had it on my list of things to do.TimidGuy 18:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added citations for the Pagels quotes 

message: The deletion of "In a large-scale literature review published by the Middle European Journal of Medicine in 2003 reported that "of 700 studies on TM spanning 40 years, only 10 were conducted in the clinical tradition of using strict control groups, randomization and placebos." Peter Canteer, a researcher from Peninsula Medical School concluded in TM research, "there is a strong placebo effect going on which probably works through the expectations being set up." " deletes a lot that isn't replicated by "Peter Canteer, a researcher from Peninsula Medical School concluded in TM research, "there is a strong placebo effect going on which probably works through the expectations being set up." [22] isn't represented fully by the Canteer quote that remians.
I propose replacing the Canteer quote that remains with the entire deleted section. Tanaats 20:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Canteer edit 

message: In "Alleged Harmful Effects of Trancendental Meditation", why was "a sworn affadavit" changed to "an affadavit"?  Tanaats 21:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there another kind of affidavit other than one that's "sworn"? Seemed like it was redundant.TimidGuy 21:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dunno'.  And neither will a lot of other people.  A little redundancy won't hurt if it informs people who aren't familiar with the nature of affadavits. Tanaats 22:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When I hear affidavit- I think- something legal. When I hear sworn affidavit- I think- legal statement- that someone actually testified or swore is true. That's how my mind reacts to the two. Sethie 23:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Doesn't matter to me. I just thought it made Wikipedia sound naive.TimidGuy 01:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I've put "sworn" back in.  Tanaats 02:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a "sworn" affadavit? 

message: Since the TM article is so long, and because "Sthapatya Veda" is essentially being given "special treatment" by appearing on the TM page rather than being a link under "Other programs offered by Maharishi", I propose that "Sthapatya Veda" be moved to its own article.  The new article can be titled with whatever the TMO's official designation for that offering is, and can be linked to under the "Other offerings..." section on the TM page.  Tanaats 00:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support that Sethie 01:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good. Thanks for suggesting it. The article title would be Maharishi Sthapatya Veda.TimidGuy 02:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move "Sthapatya Veda" to its own article? 

message: At the top of the article there's this line: "1. REDIRECT Template:Totally-disputed".  Whazzat? Tanaats 02:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The tag is correct. May be a temporary Wikipedia glitch. I think for now we can leave it and see if Wikipedia gets the template corrected.TimidGuy 02:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The template was changed for consistency with other templates, but apparently there was a problem with the redirect to the new one.  I established a link directly to the new one, so we're good.  I hope.  :) Dreadlocke  ☥  05:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for doing that, Dreadlocke, and for keeping an eye on things here. Your assistance is helpful.TimidGuy 16:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totally disputed? 

message: Given the data the Timidguy has presented, I re-wrote the paragraph on the canter and ernst study, using their exact words in refference to the outcomes.Sethie 16:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was afraid you'd do that. I had rewritten it earlier so that it wouldn't be misleading. Most readers will think that "negative effect" means "adverse effect." As I explained in an earlier posting on the Talk page, "negative effect" has a technical scientific meaning. To best represent the study and not mislead readers, we should go back to my earlier rewrite.TimidGuy 16:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Re-write

message: So what do we call the yagya page?  "Maharishi Yagya Program"? And what about jyotish, it seems to be inextricably linked with yagayas.  Tanaats 01:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Tanaats, for asking. "Maharishi Yagya" is the registered trademark so let's go with that. And thanks again for all the improvements you're making to the various articles. And it's fine that you qualified the Maharishi and TM-Sidhi articles by saying that "Maharishi states." I hadn't even known there was an article on the Raam.TimidGuy 12:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks again for all your work on reorganizing things. Am working under deadline today so won't be able to respond to your NLP question or look at your work on the other articles.TimidGuy 12:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "yagya" page 

message: Why do we have an "expert" template at the top of the article?  Is an outside "expert" on the topic supposed to show up as a result? Tanaats 04:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This was put there by an anonymous user. We can delete it if you want. I've noticed that anonymous users tend to come through and tag articles without making any comment on the Talk page. I really don't think that's what Wikipedia has in mind. I think we're free to delete them in these instances if we disagree.TimidGuy 12:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, I took it out.  Tanaats 16:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the "expert" template? 

message: I think that United States Natural Law Party should be merged with Natural Law Party.  The USNLP article is quite redundant.  Tanaats 18:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for suggesting this. I'd be inclined to leave it as it is for now. I was talking to someone about the issue. He said that the international Natural Law Parties have very different legal contexts compared to the U.S. Natural Law Party. He thought that the articles could be merged but that we'd have to make very clear distinctions -- since statements about the party in one country wouldn't necessarily apply to the party in another country. Since I'm not up to speed on this, I'd like to hold off for a while. But I definitely think we should have this as a goal.TimidGuy 16:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, no problem with putting it off.  It's not an urgent thing, more of a "nice to have".  Tanaats 19:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: OK. Thanks.TimidGuy 20:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  United States Natural Law Party? 

message: The Maharishi Yagya page references "Maharishi Jyotish", yet doesn't explain what that is.  Maybe there should be a "Maharishi Jyotish" page.  Tanaats 01:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it seems like there should be. Thanks.TimidGuy 12:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maharishi Jyotish? 

message: Tanaats and Sparaig -- I like Tanaats's point about agreeing to disagree. It seems like the Talk page has morphed into Alt.Meditation.Transcendental. We really need to be careful to avoid this kind of personal debate on the Talk page. It's important to stay focused on the article. At this point, it's not clear how the debate directly relates to the article. It began as a comment on the Breaking Away section. And at this point we're pretty much in agreement about changes that need to be made to that section.
We've made a lot of progress recently in improving the articles related to Maharishi, but a lot of work remains to be done. We won't accomplish that if we get off track.TimidGuy 18:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, I'm going to shut up, except for issues such as "dhyana" that are substantive because it is about what belongs in the article and what doesn't.Tanaats 18:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Agree to disagree 

message: Here are the proposed new sentences, using the sources we discussed:
Maharishi has said that Transcendental Consciousness is experienced via dhyana, a Sanskrit term which he equates with Transcendental Meditation. While dhyana is often characterized as involving concentraton or contemplation, Transcendental Meditation instead makes use of the "natural, expansive response of the mind." Maharishi says that concentration is a mistranslation of dhyana and that meditation that uses concentration results in a failure to transcend.
Should I go ahead and add them?TimidGuy 21:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me! Tanaats 21:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed dhyana sentences 

message: Is it true that to qualify for WP:RS, something MUST be "thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals?" 
:Yes, when something is presented as a scientific study, I believe the guideline is clear that this is what's expected.TimidGuy 20:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for sharing your interpretation. Now can you please show me where it says IT MUST BE SO! And can you please show me where the German study claims to be a study?Sethie 23:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the guideline is clear. And, yes, this is presented in the TM article as being a study: "A study funded by the German government found that over 75% of long term meditators experienced adverse health and psychological effects as a result of TM." I feel that this is the heart of the matter.TimidGuy 12:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that you believe that. And it is also true that I asked you to show me where in the guidelines it says that it must be so, and you responded by repeating, "I think it is so." So I ask again, where does the guidelines say that it MUST be this way?Sethie 14:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:RS

message: I am confused by your statement "Wikipedia preffers sources in English." I understand the idea, I am confused why you are raising it here. Can you show me any place that we are using a translation of anything German in the article?
:Wikipedia is referencing a German study.
::Yeah, so let me try asking again.
::Can you show me a non-English Source anywhere in the current Wiki article? Sethie 23:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: David didn't do the translation. Legal counsel paid for a certified translation. What's the source of the translation of the study?TimidGuy 20:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know what, thanks for the OR. Interesting information and doesn't help us here.Sethie 23:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: German translations

message: In regards to "Researcher David Orme-Johnson, who has authored over 100 studies related to Transcendental Meditation (most of them peer-reviewed)"...  This is cited, but the source is actually O-J talking about himself.  I would prefer something like "Researcher David Orme-Johnson states that he has authored over 100 studies related to Transcendental Meditation (most of them peer-reviewed).  He further states..."  Tanaats 22:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mind if you change that. But note that he lists all of his studies on his web site.       Anyone could verify this by looking at any index of scientific literature.TimidGuy 12:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but IMO the citation that is actully given only supports "He states".  Thanks!  I've made the edit. Tanaats 18:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr. O-J has authored... 

message: Hi there Olive Oil,
Welcome to Wikipedia.  I had rough first few days on WP a couple of weeks ago, and you might have a few rough days too until you get it all figured out.  You might start by reading the WP:5 that TimidGuy referenced earlier, and follow and read as many of the links as you can.  In particular take a look at WP:OR and WP:NPOV.  
And to sign your postings you put in 4 tildes in a row.  When you save the page this is expanded by the Wiki software into your username and the time of day.  And it's always a good idea to hit the Preview button amd make sure your entry looks like you want it to and says what you want it to, before saving the page.
Good luck. Tanaats 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welcome to Olive Oil