Talk:First Nagorno-Karabakh War/Archive 1

message: Well as you can all see, I have added little but its a start. Hopefully we can have many members contribute to this article.--MarshallBagramyan 01:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Sorry, this is the second time I'm telling. The map is wrong. (Armenicum 18:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now it's fixed. -- Clevelander 11:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The MAP of Karabakh is wrong 

message: I was thinking of uploading several images from Radio Liberty's news website. Does anyone know what sort of copyright protections we might run into, if any, if we decided to use their pictures?--MarshallBagramyan 06:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: --Eupator 20:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFE/RL 

message: :Image:366th and Weapons.jpg is used in this article - while listed as fair use it lacks a rationale. In fact, its copyright tag is: "This image is a screenshot from a copyrighted film, and the copyright for it is most likely owned by the studio which produced the film, and possibly also by any actors appearing in the screenshot. It is believed that the use of a limited number of web-resolution screenshots ... for identification and critical commentary on the film and its contents...qualifies as fair use". Now, it certainly doesn't seem to be used here to illustrate the film itself. In fact the film itself is not even mentioned in the image page, which means it lacks source information and also seriously affects the "fair use" claim. Is this image actually necessary here? And if it really is necessary (remembering that free content is always vastly preferred to copyright-tangled proprietary content on this "free" encyclopedia), then can the image be used here in such a way as to make a valid fair use claim, or is it a copyvio? TheGrappler 02:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the video images used by the war were not recorded by journalists or even freelancers (the ITN one is an exception). Much of it belonged to video cameras owned by those who were lucky enough to own them and even then, many were killed while recording them in battles and their identities remain as much a mystery that most people would not be able to claim it as their own if they even saw it. I figured the picture was necessary to illustrate how simple it was to buy arms after the USSR broke down. I took the images using a digital camera while watching it on a videotape and it was simply amazing, no commanders, no ranking officers, no oversight, just a few poor Uzbek and Tajik conscripts who had never seen a video camera before in their lives, conversing with two Armenian commanders, exchanging the armor in their barracks for a few rubles and bottles of vodka. The videos are narrated by Armenians, the ones I have that is, and are basically a montage of video clips compiled into one another and be purchased for only 3-5$.--MarshallBagramyan 05:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It could do with a good fair use rationale. I'm not sure if the "screenshot" tag is appropriate - that is clearly intended for instances where the movie itself is being commentated on - perhaps it should be fairusein instead? TheGrappler 07:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the fair use rationale is much better.--MarshallBagramyan 15:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Image:366th and Weapons.jpg]] 

message: Just wondering why the Strength section was removed from the infobox? Isn't it standard practice?--Eupator 03:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: If you include the reference to Mutalibov (quoted below), you should also include his reaction to interpretation of his interview by the Armenian side. He claims that he never ever accused Popular Front and uses not very nice words to characterise allegations of the Aremenian side. 
Ayaz Mutalibov's oft-refered to letter was used by Armenian officials to counter Azeri claims that the massacre had not been done by Armenian soldiers but that instead by Azeri Popular Front soldiers who massacred 100 Azeri civilians and also several Armenian hostages. They then proceeded to mix the bodies which according to Mutalibov, was a ploy to denigrate his government. Grandmaster 05:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I ask when the interview was done?--MarshallBagramyan 05:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevermind, in 2004. Well, Mutalibov is surely angry but how do we know he didn't change his position after all this time=? It wasn't just the Armenians but several news journalists and organizations even quoted him for making the claims. Several others used his letter to defend the Armenians. If his views changed in 12 years, what relevance does that have to do with a letter he wrote trying to save himself from blame right when Khojaly happend?--MarshallBagramyan 05:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  He did not write a letter, it was an interview, which was quoted and given various interpretations by the Armenian mass-media, but in fact it doesn’t even mention Popular Front. He claims that he only meant that the opposition took the advantage of the situation, but never said that they have anything to do with the massacre. Plus, Mutalibov was refuting Armenian claims not only in 2004, but much earlier. If you quote this person, you should quote all his interviews related to this event, and not just one. Grandmaster 05:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But it wasn't just the Armenia media that consumed it. Some articles from the Associated Press and several other organizations quoted or "misinterpreted" his comments. If its better, I'll just list that as another theory that emerged, not exactly something Mutalibov said. Do you have a transcript of the interview? Preferably in English?--MarshallBagramyan 16:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It was not taken seriously anywhere outside of Armenia. You can find the text in any Armenian site about NK. That interview was given a couple of weeks before he tried to return to power with the help of his armed supporters. It was sort of a black PR against his political opponents. He says there that he is ready to return to presidency if people call him. When the coup failed, he explained that any information to which he was referring was taken from the Armenian sources from Stepanakert, where he called by telephone to find out what happened. I have the text of the interview of 2002, where he says the same thing, I can post it here. And again, if you refer to him, you should refer also to his later interviews as well. Grandmaster 17:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mutalibov 

message: The Good article nomination for Nagorno-Karabakh War has failed for the following reason(s):POV issues. But it can make it as a good article if the issues are resolved. Nagorno-Karabakh War Grandmaster 06:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who would nominate this for GA status so soon? Don't they have to completed first? There's still much more to be added. Add POV issues and any necessary excerpts on my talk page or here. I'm doing my best in balancing this. Can I also see the nomination page and their comments?--MarshallBagramyan 16:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did not see any commnets there. Click the link on the tag to see the list of nominations. And by the way, you indeed did a good work, I think if the article gets more input from Azeri users it can make it as GA. I will contribute when I finish with NK page. Grandmaster 17:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Good articles|Good Article]] [[Wikipedia:Good articles/Nominations|nomination]] has failed 

message: I just added a basic ending to this conflict from the N-K file, but there appears to be a time gap. September 92-May 94, when the cease fire stuck.
--Eeble 19:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What part of Armenia "assisting their brethren" do you find POV problems? Do the Armenians living in Karabakh some sort of different chemical imbalance or genetic make up that somehow negates such an assertion? Also Armenia did aid and assist Karabakh, which puzzles me as to why you removed it altogether. I'm working on this article chronologically so the resolution and the peace process will be included after certain other sections. Right now, the article is hinging on December 1992-Feburary 1993. The air war section will be included after the 1994 peace signing, so please be patient.--MarshallBagramyan 20:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing time 

message: I think we should add more on outside involvement in the war. Including aid, help, political support, refugee status, foreign arms, fighters, balance of power, and de facto alliances. 69.196.164.190
:Yup, all those things will be included including a section on refugees and possibly a section on alleged war crimes.--MarshallBagramyan 15:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I think more should be written about outside Involvement in the War

message: Why were the flags from the combatants removed? They looked nice. --TigranTheGreat 07:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flags 

message: I think that it's still too early to have this nominated for a GA.  The article is still not complete and I think that, if anything, we should strive to make this piece a Featured Article instead.  If we are successful in doing that, then it will be featured on Wikipedia's index page and subsequently everyone will be able to check it out (not just a closed group of Armenian and Azeri editors). -- Clevelander 12:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Too early. This one has no contribution from Azeri users, so it has some POV problems. Grandmaster 17:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: GM, just because there have been minimal contributions by Azeri editors (and there have been, look at the history) does not automatically make it a POV article.  The whole thing was written very carefully and referenced from several credible sources.  -- Clevelander 17:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because no Azeris contributed to the article doesn't mean it "lacks" POV. I took special consideration in balancing both sides and explaining controversial events by using the word "allegations". Just because there are more details on the Armenian military operations doesn't necessarily mean the article has only one point of view, maybe little insight into the Azeri military's capability.  That may mean its somewhat unbalanced rather than suffering from POV problems, big difference. This has been under the auspices of writers of every side (Armenian, Russian, Turkish, Azeri) and I have barely heard any clear problems in the article. Take a look at the sources, I count two sources written by Armenians; the rest are all American, Canadian, British, Greek, or Russian, more than neutral and balanced. I have been finding all these from numerous databases and have avoided ones that are not serious credible publications.--MarshallBagramyan 21:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article? 

message: <S>The Good article nomination for  has failed
:<S>There are still certain statistic that require citing:</S>
*<S>"but also held and currently control approximately 14% of Azerbaijan's territory."</S>
*<S>"with a population that was 94% Armenian"</S>
*<S>"Armenia's economy as 85% of the cargo"</S>
*<S>"About 60% of Karabakh Armenians were said to have also served in the Soviet Army."</S>
:<S>Heading should follow the manual of style, WP:MOSHEAD

Iolakana|T 17:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies, as I should have just put this on hold. I now feel that it passes as a good article. Iolakana|T 11:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Congrats, Marshall! You definitely deserved it! -- Clevelander 13:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very cool, FA status coming soon. Until then, we'll finish the last section and mop up grammar and other errors. Thanks Kilo-Lima.--MarshallBagramyan 16:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Congrats - I changed the class to GA.--Oldwildbill 06:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Good articles|Good Article]] [[Wikipedia:Good articles/Nominations|nomination]] has  passed 

message: I think it is better to remove all quotes in the headlines, they are quite controversial. Grandmaster 08:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We think not. The quotes are real; therefore, they satay unless you show me a wiki policy that says "controversial" quotes are not to be included within articles.--Eupator 12:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes 

message: Wow, there is no citation I noticed through search on recruiting the Afghan Mujahideen, neither in the infobox, nor in the body. --Brand спойт 12:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Will this do? Following the defeats suffered by the Azeri (Muslim) forces in their war with the Armenians (Christians) over control of the Nagorny Karabakh region, Azerbaijan turned to Afghanistan in August 1993 for military aid. Afghanistan responded by sending 1,000 mujahideen warriors to help the Azeris. In October 1993, the Afghan mujahideen launched a surprise attack against the Armenian forces in the region of Zanglan (near the Iranian border), and even gained ground, before being repulsed by the Armenian forces. As far as we know, these mujahideen forces remained in Azerbaijan where they continue to help the Azeris in their struggle against the Armenians. The source is the Israeli government, a staunch ally of Azerbaijan.--Eupator 14:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've fixed it. --Brand спойт 17:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afghan Mujahideen 

message: The specific quote mentioned on the article comes from My Brother's Road but other similar reactions can be found, for example the author of the Time Magazine article dated December 26, 1988 A Journey into Misery John Kohan writes: 
:"Sometimes these tales of grief from the earthquake zone merged seamlessly with horror stories of brutal rapes and beatings during ethnic clashes last February in the Azerbaijani city of Sumgait. The people I spoke with insisted that after the earthquake, Azerbaijanis refused to help, announcing that 'Allah has finally heard us.' Some claimed that trains from the neighboring Muslim republic were even scrawled with graffiti reading DECEMBER 7. HAPPY HOLIDAY!" (Source A Journey into Misery)
See also the book, Black Garden on page 64 which the author writes, "And there were also reports of some gleeful Azerbaijanis setting off fireworks to celebrate the 'punishment' [earthquake] of Armenia".--MarshallBagramyan 21:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And there was also an airplane with rescuers from Azerbaijan, which along with Yugoslavian plane crashed near Yerevan. Armenians erected a monument to Yugoslavs and prefer not to talk about Azeris, who were also trying to help. Do you think this should be mentioned as well? Grandmaster 10:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can include it on the Leninakan Earthquake or as an example in history section between Armenians and Azeris in the Foreign relations of Armenia page but I don't think it would make much sense including it on this article since it seems somewhat irrelevant and just unnecessarily elongates the article.--MarshallBagramyan 20:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, if you include negative reaction from Azeris, why not include the info on Azerbaijani attempts to provide help? Why only negative info? If you concerned about the space, I suggest you remove the quote altogether. Grandmaster 07:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it seems rather misplaced in an article that is supposed to be focussing much more about a war and its military aspects rather than continuously dwelling on how the two groups hated one another. The quotes are simply attention getters to make the article more interesting and expose the ugly characteristics in wars and conflicts. Nevertheless, many Armenians rejected aid from Azerbaijan. But since you mentioned it, I noticed that the quote is under the "Sumgait" section, I can simply replace it with something more relevant to the pogrom itself.--MarshallBagramyan 20:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Earthquake quote

message: "Elchibey, arriving from exile in Iran" ? 
As I know , he was not in Iran : is there any source for that ?
: I remember reading that the Soviet government exiled him in the 1980s and he resided in Iran temporarily. He may have been in Nakhichevan so i'll double check it.--MarshallBagramyan 20:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It was not Elchibey, he never left Azerbaijan. It was Neimat Panakhov who fled to Iran after the Black Junuary. Grandmaster 07:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elchibey, arriving from exile in Iran ?  

message: I wonder if anyone is amenable to changing the name of the article to the Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict since this deals from 1988 to 1994 and not the real war years that lasted from '92-'94. I figure its an issue of semantics but I'm curious to hear different opinions on it.--MarshallBagramyan 22:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The term "war" works better, I say we keep it as it is. -- Clevelander 00:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  War actually started in 1992, with the collapse of the USSR, before that it was a conflict, so I'm not really sure. It might be better to call it a conflict. Grandmaster 06:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure either. I guess this article covers both the war and the conflict that led to it. MA, maybe if you change it to conflict you can move a lot of info to a separate war article thus shortening this article to a much smaller size finally.--Eupator 15:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name change

message: I was browsing through some of my old work and came across this map of the line of control I whipped up one day while making my Nagorno-Karabakh map. (link here) and wondered if perhaps it had a place on this article? With some editing and shrinking perhaps? --Golbez 19:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: I marked the Khojali section for POV since it only mentions one perspective. There were high-ranking Azeris at the time of the incident that admitted it was internal Azeri forces that were responsible for the massacre. 
Here is a great article from www.haias.net:
(Please read carefully, paying attention to journalistic, eyewitness and governmental sources)
*I would've posted a link but the original site's authoring format doesn't allow*
The Truth about Khojalu Events
Azeri Sources Testify'''
An anti-Armenian campaign has been hysterically raging in Azerbaijan throughout the nine years following the Khojalu events the official Baku. The purpose of the campaign is to falsify the facts and bring discredit on Armenia in the eyes of the international community. The Khojalu events when peaceful people died were exclusively the result of the political intrigues and struggle for power in Azerbaijan. The real reasons lying behind these events are more convincingly reflected in the testimonies of the Azeris themselves, both the participants, eyewitnesses of the events and those who knew the ins and outs in Baku.
According to M. Safaroghli, an Azerbaijani journalist, "Khojalu was located in an important strategic position. Losing control over Khojalu would mean a political fiasco for Moutalibov". (Newspaper "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" ("Independent Newspaper", February, 1993). Along with Shushi and Aghdam, Khojalu was one of the key bases from where Stepanakert, the capital of Nagorno Karabagh was continuously bombed during the winter months.
The population of NKR which was in the danger of the total physical extinction by Azerbaijan could survive only by neutralizing the weapon emplacements of Khojalu and de-blocking the airport. Hundreds of peaceful people were killed in Stepanakert as the result of the daily bombing from the adjacent Khojalu. The military operation of the armed forced of NKR on the neutralization of the weapon emplacements of Khojalu was not a surprise for Azerbaijan. For the first time the Azeri side was notified about the forthcoming attack by TV nearly two months prior to the operation. Arif Yunusov, a well-known champion of human rights in Azerbiajan wrote about that in "Izvestia". The officials in Baku did not try to hide their awareness, including Ayaz Moutalibov, the president of Azerbaijan. He emphasized that "… the offense on Khojalu was not a surprise". ("Ogoniok" Magazine, N 14-15, 1992) As the result of these warnings the majority of the peaceful people of Khojalu moved to safe zones.
The detachments of NKR did everything possible in order to exclude the death of the peaceful population of the settlement and left a corridor for the safe evacuation of the peaceful population from the zone of military actions. The Azeri side was timely informed about the opened corridor which allowed to evacuate the people of Khojalu. Elman Mamedov, the mayor of Khojalu: "We knew that the corridor was left for the exit of the peaceful people" ("Russkaya Misl" 03.03.1992, citation from "Bakinskie Rabochiy" newspaper).
After the operation was over 11 bodies of Azeris were found by the rescue group "Artsakh" in the village and its neighboring areas, naturally, counting out the bodies of the members of the armed formations dressed in uniforms (their number was also small). The insignificant number of the peaceful victims of Khojalu in the view of the intense military actions undertaken for the purpose of holding control over the settlement evidenced that the Armenian side had taken all measures on ensuring the maximal possible security of the people of the village. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that a significant number of the peaceful population of Khojalu became victims of the operation. How many of the people of Khojalu were killed and where?
The Azeri side is categorically silent about the place of the death of hundreds of residents of the village. The truth is that all of them were coolly assassinated at the distance of 11 km from Khojalu, about 2-3 km far from Aghdam which at that time used to be the regional military base of the Azeri armed forces. This mere fact is enough for casting light on the intricate story about the massive extinction of the residents of Khojalu. It is hard to understand why should the Armenians let the population of Khojalu flee from the besieged village in order to kill them on the approaches of Aghdam putting their lives at risk (at that time Aghdam was under the control of the Azeris).
In his interview to "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" Moutalibov stated that "however, the Armenians had left a corridor for the escape of the people. Why a fire should have opened then?("Nezavisimaya Gazeta", April 2, 1992) He linked the fact of the criminal fusillade of the peaceful people with the attempts of the opposition to remove him from power, laying the responsibility for the tragedy entirely on him. In his interview to "Novoye Vremia" ("New Time") Magazine Moutalibov confirmed his statement which was made nine days before: "It was evident that the some people had organized the shooting for shifting the power in Azerbaijan" ("Novoye Vremia" , March 6, 2001). Similar statements and assessments of the Khojalu events were made by several other Azerbaijani top official and journalists.
R. Gajiyev, member of the Operating Committee of Aghdam Branch of NFA (National Front of Azerbaijan): We could have helped the people of Khojalu because we had the resources and means.
However, the authorities of the republic wanted to demonstarte to the people of Azerbaijan that they are not able to do so and ask for the assistance of the CIS Army and with the help of the latter also neutralize the opposition" (Moscow, "Izvestia", April, 1992).
The Azeri journalist Arif Yunosov's view is slightly different from the statements given above. According to Yunusov, "The town itself and its population are willingfully sacrificed for the political purposes, i.e., prevent the National Front of Azerbaijan from coming to power" ("Zerkalo" ("Mirror") Newspaper, July, 1992.) Again, it follows that the Azeris themselves are the perpetrators of the tragedy.
The Khojalu events are the result of the treachery of the high-level Azeri authorities towards the people of Khojalu whereas the Azeri propaganda blew up the story about the "brutalities of the Armenians", and the dreadful pictures of the site covered with defiled bodies were demonstrated by TV. It was propagated that Khojalu was the retaliation of the Armenians for Sumgayit.
Tamerlan Karayev, the former Chairman of the Supreme Council of Azerbaijan testifies: "The tragedy was perpetrated by the Azeri authorities", in particular, "some of the top officials" ("Moukhtalifat" Newspaper, April 28, 1992). Yana Mazalova, a Czech journalist, who, because of the oversight of the Azeris, was included in both of the groups of journalists who visited the place of the events on the first day and several days later, noticed the stunning difference how the bodies looked at the first and second site visits. before and after between the previous and latest outer look of the bodies. When Mazalova visited the site immediately after the events she saw that the bodies did not bear any traces of brutality whereas a couple of days later the bodies "adulterated" by the Armenians and "ready" for the cameras were demonstrated to the journalists.
Who killed the peaceful people of Khojalu and later defiled their bodies, if the tragedy took place not in the village liberated by the Armenians, and not along the direction of the humanitarian corridor, but on the close approaches of Aghdam town, a territory which was entirely under the control of the National Front of Azerbaijan? Chingiz Moustafayev (Fuat-oghli), an independent Azeri TV journalist and cameraman who filmed the aftereffect on February 28 and March 2, 1992, doubted the official version of Azerbaijan and initiated his own investigation. His life was the price for his very first report to the Moscow News Agency "DR-Press" about the possible involvement of the Azeri side in the crime: he was killed not far from Aghdam, and the details of the murder still remain unrevealed. Moustafayev reported about the flight to Khojalu. He noted that he could not film the dead bodies there, because "there was not a single killed person there …". In the course of the first flight the journalists shot only a couple of dozens of bodies of the Azeri soldiers which were found not far from the village of Nakhichevanik. However, most of the bodies were near Aghdam where they were video-filmed on February 29 and later on March 2. These tapes were displayed at the session of Milli Medjlis and, later, numerous TV channels of the world as an evidence of the massive manslaughter of the Azeri population of Khojalu. The first flight of the helicopter with the Azeri journalists on board took place on February 29, 1992. It is noteworthy that the journalists who were informed about the massive offense of the Azeris in Khojalu flew directly to the place of the events. However, they did not find any evidence of the happenings and flew back. During the second flight to the region of the massive slaughter, on March 2, 1992, the journalists noticed that the positions of the dead bodies lying on the ground and the level of the injuries and physical impairment was astonishingly different as compared to the first inspection. Chingiz Moustafayev (Fuat-oghli) informed the Azeri president A. Moutalibov about the changed positions of the bodies and their physical impairment. Undoubtedly, by that time the Azeri president understood the reasons which caused the falsification of the tragedy. Moutalibov gave a really prophetic answer to the journalist, "Chingiz, don't tell anyone that you think something is wrong because they'll kill you". Chingiz Moutafayev was killed in the same field where he had shot the main Azeri "argument".
The present president of Azerbaijan Geydar Aliyev personally admitted that the "former leadership of Azerbaijan was also at fault of the Khojalu events". As early as in April of 1992 the following was articulated by him, "The bloodshed will do good to us. We shouldn't interfere in the course of events" (Bilik-Duniasi News Agency). It is out of question who gained from the "bloodshed". Megapolis-Express wrote: "It is impossible not to admit that if the National Front of Azerbaijan in fact had defined far-reaching goals, it succeeded in addressing them.
Moutalibov is compromised and forced out of his post, the international community is in shock, the Azeris and their brotherly Turks believed in the so-called "genocide of the Azerbaijani people in Khojalu"("Megapolis-Express", N17, 1992).
The Azeri mass media was silent in its comments on the Khojalu events about another tragic detail which was revealed later: 47 Armenians were held hostage in the "peaceful" Khojalu since February 26. After the liberation of Khojalu only 13 of these hostages were found in the settlement (including 6 women and 1 child), the remaining 34 were taken away by the Azeris in the unknown direction. All that is known about these hostages is that at the night of the operation they were driven away from the place of imprisonment, but not from the settlement. There is no information about their further status as hostages. It is obvious that the bodies of the Armenian hostages were tormented beyond the degree when they could be identified. This was done in order to create the illusion that the bodies of the victims "had been defiled" by the Armenians. This is the reason why the bodies of the wretched victims were outraged to the extent that it was impossible to identify the victims. As a matter of fact, around 700 inhabitants of Khojalu, including Turks - Meskhets who for whatever reasons failed to use the free corridor for retreat were passed to the Azerbaijani side without any conditions. After the thorough investigation the fact of the unconditional return of the residents of Khojalu to Azerbaijan was confirmed in the conclusion of the Human Rights Watch Center "Memorial" (Moscow), as well as in the documentary film of Svetlana Kulchitskaya, a journalist from St. Petersburg.
It follows from the above-described facts that the blame for the death of the peaceful people of Khojalu and those Armenians who had been taken hostage in the village lies on the Azeris. The Azerbaijani side committed a crime against its own people, and the motivation lies in the political intrigues and lust for power.
: Please check the article on Khojaly massacre and don't copy propaganda articles here in their entirety. It is enough to provide a link. We cannot base articles on apologist websites like Sumgait.info. We refer to neutral sources and provide the viewpoints of concerned parties. So the viewpoints of Armenian denialists are reflected too. Grandmaster 05:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Had a competent, or at least literate person read what I wrote above preceding the article, particularly: "I would've posted a link but the original site's authoring format doesn't allow" they wouldn't have made such an ignorant comment. Second, I don't know what Sumgait.info has to do with me or my post. And again, if a competent or literate person read the article I posted they'd see that the RUSSIAN AND FOREIGN journalists, and AZERI OFFICIALS who were the subjects of the article wouldn't have an interest or advantage (respectively) in lying. Be careful when you call the work of professional journalists "propaganda". Regardless, if Azeri officials admitted that was the work of other Azeris (The National Front of Azeribaijan party) to foreign journalists, this article needs major overhaul to include that perspective.
Hovaness 05:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Azeri officials did not admit anything like that. The source above is not neutral and cannot be considered reliable according to the rules. Grandmaster 08:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khojali