Talk:List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine

message: * What is the definition of the responsible party ?
NPoV doesn't mean to introduce facts as if everybody were responsible, particularly when one's wants to make an article about a massacre ?
Jews that were killed during Deir Yassin events (battle and then massacre) are not victims of a massacre. They were killed by the Arab villagers who defended themselves.
For exactly the same reasons, the Arabs who were killed in 1920, 1921 and 1929 were not massacred. They were killed because Jews protected themselves. I suggest they are removed from the list of victims or we add all victims (Jews - Arabs - British) for all events reported in this article.
Kachol (talk) 23:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for clearing that up. I agree with you. It does seem controversial to blame someone entirely on one party. For example reading Israel times and Al Jazeera on the Jaffa riots, there were in fact instances where Jews attacked Arabs and vice versa. The starting of the riots may have been Arab but there still was a level of responsibility to be put on both sides. For some of these it certainly was only one party that should be responsible but for others it is a shared burden.  Ahm1453 (talk) 03:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Responsible party 

message: This : List of massacres committed prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war in Mandate Palestine is equivalent to List of massacres committed in Mandatory Palestine, given the British Mandate ended on May 14, 1948, just before the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
Unless disagreement, I will proceed to the move. Ceedjee (talk) 06:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason not to. Dextrose (talk) 13:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Does committed really needed, List of massacres in Mandatory Palestine is enough. List of massacres in Mandatory Palestine until 1948 may be better since gives date. Kasaalan (talk) 07:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: like Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War the name may be Killings and massacres before the 1948 Palestine War if all agrees. Kasaalan (talk) 21:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: because massacre implies that one side is responsible and talks about the death of the other. When people talk about Deir Yassain, no one mentions what happened to a few Jews that same day. Likewise, during the attacks and pogroms on the Jews, I think there needs to be emphasis on the Jews killed. Or I think this article should be renamed.
Seeing as there is an article on Irgun attacks, I think there should be an article on Arab attacks on Jews. You cannot have one without the other or it is not NPOV on this site and blatantly biased.
Tallicfan20 (talk) 10:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to create one, however this article mentions massacres by both parties as you can clearly understand if you read the entries. Kasaalan (talk) 11:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  this article needs a massive redoing 

message: At the risk of repeating what is said above, the selection of entries in this list makes little sense.  The article starts by saying that it is restricted to deaths of "civilians or non-combat military personnel" but many of the entries clearly don't match that.  Moreover, many of the entries do not carry sources which support insertion - this includes almost everything sourced to Gilbert's Atlas, which rarely gives sufficient detail to identify the nature of the victims.  Also a lot of examples from List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s are missing. Zerotalk 05:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I still don't really understand the scope of this article. It is not clearly defined. I believe that once we define that we can continue with improving its content. Personally, I would put the information about the massacres in the 1947–48 Palestine War into the same article as the massacres of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, while anything before 1947 can go into a separate article which can include anything from 1881 to November 29, 1947. —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  It would certainly help to define this article if November 29, 1947 was used as the cut-off date.  I also suggest changing the "3 victims" criterion back to "10 victims" since otherwise it will never be more than a fraction complete.  Actually there were hundreds of incidents in the 3-9 range, most of which never got into books (read contemporary newspapers to see this is true).  Zerotalk 03:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: One year after your comment, I agree with you. I proceed in to the appropriate modification. Noisetier (talk) 13:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major problems with this article 

message: The scope of this article was vaguely defined, I am trying to improve this. IMHO it should cover killings and massacres during the existence of the British Mandate for Palestine, which is an undisputed, objectively quantifiable time period. Marokwitz (talk) 06:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vague scope  

message: *"Responsible party" column - I think it's problematic. If everyone's listed, as is the case in several places, then what's the point? How do we determine who to list? I think it should probably be expanded or merged with the casualties section to specify who's responsible for what killing. For example, in the 1936-1939 riots, the vast majority of Arabs were killed by police. Many of them were armed. A reader can't tell the difference between that and civilians at a market being killed by a bomb planted by "militants".
*"Casualties/notes" column - see above. I think it should be expanded.
Thoughts? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:59, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In general, it is very difficult to do justice to these events in the form of a list. Especially when you consider the competing narratives and often contradictory accounts of the events. Take the riots for instance, Ben Gurion said that the fighting,"is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." (Ben-Ami, Shlomo (2006) Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy. Oxford University Press. pp 13). So can I put Zionism and Colonialism as the causes and cite Ben Gurion? Or look at the Haifa oil refinery massacre, Irgun lob a grenade into a crowd of Arab workers at the gates of the refinery killing 6 outright and wounding scores. The attack triggers a riot at the refinery where the Jewish workers are attacked and killed. The following day Haganagh slip into a nearby village at night and massacre the sleeping residents in revenge for the killings at the refinery. And so it goes on. In many cases it is very difficult to point an accusing finger at a single party IMHO. Having said that I don't have a strong opinion about your proposal and I'm not going to stand in the way if you want to go ahead with it. Dlv999 (talk) 08:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

text: I don't think No More Mr Nice Guy is proposing to describe the ultimate cause and where the responsibility lies of the killings, which as you say will be nigh impossible. Simply noting the identity of the perpetrator and the immediate circumstances should not be too difficult. Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 15:02, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Expanding the Casualties/notes column would probably open the door for disputes as both sides will attempt to justify the killings by appending notes. My personal opinion is that numbers and facts only should be stated at this table and the events' backgrounds and details should be described in separate wiki article if warranted.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by MJC.2012 (talk • contribs) 16:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  A couple of things 

message: This article currently lists the 1937-1939 riots with their total casualties as one incident and then various killings that were part of these riots as if they were two separate things. It creates a false impression. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 04:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What makes you certain that they're included in the numbers for the Arab revolt? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:40, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: See 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 21:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  1937-1939 riots 

message: Bombing of Arab National Committee HQ	January 4, 1948 . Says responsible party is "stern gang" --> and redirects to "Lehi" . Why not change it to Lehi like all the other entries, as stern gang only appears once on this page but Lehi appears multiple times. The Lehi group was called stern gang by the British. They are the same group. I wanted to change these words but Wikipedia threatened me since I have lower than 500 edits.
Spike82 (talk) 04:33, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency using groups names of responsible party "lehi" & "stern gang" 

message: Why was my edit of the Tiberias Massacre reverted? It's not placed chronologically in the chart, and I gave a credible source for my description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.162.66 (talk) 01:06, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tiberias massacre 

message: ... means what? If they died in hospital etc., they were part of the "Fatalities" - or we change heading to "IMMEDIATE fatalities". Arminden (talk) 13:17, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It means very seriously wounded, at risk of death, but didn't actually die.  Since we only use such classification in a few places, maybe it would be more consistent to not use it?  Zerotalk 23:22, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Critically wounded"? 

message: Today, Ethanbas removed two incidents—the April 23, 1948, Cairo-Haifa Train bombing and the April 25 Sorona [should be Sarona] Police Station bombing—with the edit summary "those 2 events aren't real; there was no sorona bombing, and there were many train bombings but none on april 23 1948".
Ethanbas is right. The source cited, The Complete Idiot's Guide to Middle East Conflict, places both bombings in April 1947, not 1948 (probably a Wikipedia editor's error). [Insert rant about how using Google Books and reading only a single page of a book is not a good way to perform research.] So do other reliable sources, including The British Army and Jewish Insurgency in Palestine, 1945–47 and Colonisation and Conflict 1750–1990.
I therefore propose restoring the bombings to the table with the dates corrected. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:13, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, at a minimum all the bombings from Cairo–Haifa train bombings 1948 can be placed in the table, and there were definitely more train bombings than just in that article. The March 31, 1948  train bombing may have been the last one, but I'm not sure. Ethanbas (talk) 03:18, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent removals 

message: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine&diff=789494866&oldid=787379801 The aggressors were Arabs in this incident, so I rolled back this edit. Ethanbas (talk) 18:25, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  IP Edit 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "more than 5,000 Arabs, over 300 Jews, and 262 Britons had been killed and at least 15,000 Arabs were wounded" from 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine#Casualties
:It's actually included in the list. —Ynhockey (Talk) 16:10, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why was the 1936-1939 Arab revolt in Palestine  not included? 

message: The table should include a 'total fatalities' part, which lists the total number of fatalities in all -- as well as the specific number of Jews killed, and the specific number of Arabs killed.Wallingfordtoday (talk) 03:13, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total fatalities? 

message: Why are Jewish attacks by Irgun detailed to like an attack with 3 Muslims dead; when Arab attacks can be grouped even though they have 50-60 deaths each. For example the Hebron massacre does not have an entry even though it is 20 times the size of some Irgun attack. It is quite biased; a good solution would be to have sub totals per year with total Jews killed by Arabs, total Arabs killed by Jews, and total Arabs killed by British forces.
Patrick.N.L (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased grouping of Arab attacks, and detailing of Jewish attacks 

message: Many of the incidents currently listed do not fit with the general understanding of massacre.  I propose splitting the list into two: A list of massacres with a narrower definition, and a list of other incidents that meet the current definition.
As a strawman, I propose that an incident only be considered a massacre if
* It fits the current definition of involving at least three deaths; and either
** it was highly asymmetric, with a clear majority of casualties (say over two thirds) on a side that was less heavily armed.  This would exclude general riots and the like; or
** the number of deaths was over 50.
There should also be guidelines about who is the "responsible party" (as in the thread above).  Perhaps any side responsible for over a quarter of the deaths could be listed as a responsible party. LachlanA (talk) 04:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't pretend to be a list of massacres.  It is called "killings and massacres" to avoid disputes over the boundary between the two. I don't agree with reintroducing the boundary and I don't see how your proposal would be an improvement. Zerotalk 08:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructure: Massacres vs other altercations