Talk:Auteur

message: Thus unsurprising that it comes from French so-called 'cinema theory'.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.18.195 (talk) 14:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You know what’s even more pretentious and nonsensical? Creating a section on a talk page to declare the topic pretentious and nonsensical. Ganondox (talk) 21:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Pretentious nonsense

message: A fundamental problem with this page -references to irony, which are in fact, not ironic, just coincidental etc. Someone with knowledge of film and semantics could tidy 
Just a nit-pick; despite what the introduction says here, "auteurism" is a method of critical study, while the Auteur Theory is indeed an actual theory, namely (as the article goes on to explain) the theory that the director is (or should be, depending on one's interpretation) a film's primary author.
Astruc's 1948 essay ought to be mentioned here.  The idea of the camera stylo is a rather obvious precursor to the auter.  Deleuze 20:08, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Fundamental problem

message: An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Auteur_theory article, and they have been placed on this page for your convenience.Tip: Some people find it helpful if these suggestions are shown on this talk page, rather than on another page. To do this, just add  to this page. — LinkBot 10:32, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:LinkBot/suggestions/Auteur_theory|Link suggestions]] 

message: I'm not sure a merge of Auteur and Auteur theory is the best idea - Auteur serves a purpose right now, giving a working definition and a list of directors that work with Auteur theory well.  -Seth Mahoney 19:26, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
:: "a list of directors that work with Auteur theory well" - LMAO. The whole thing is pretentious nonsense.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.18.195 (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. --Smell? 07:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge 

message: Any critics of the Auteur theory out there want to add their 2 cents to this article? I read somewhere that Peter Bogdanovich films are often used as an example to debunk the theory since his early movies were masterpeices, and then everything he did after sucked amazingly. If the theory was true, he would have continued to make classics.
:: I think that's an absurdly simplistic view of auteur theory. But one criticism is that films by an auteur can be treated with reverence even when they suck (such as Kubrick's Fear and Desire. The Singing Badger 16:31, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternate views 

message: I justed posted the sentence below to the auteur theory page but removed because I see that there has been a lot of writing on this page and I do not want to mess up your work.
In recent years, the auteur theory has been contrasted with genre theory.
I do not want to contradict the auteur theory (it brought us some wonderful movies), but it bothers me that the auteur theory never brings up 'genre' directors like David Cronenberg or Radley Metzger or Roger Corman.
The auteur theory is another instance of the cult of personality of the great man theory which tends to exclude the excellent work of some directors of escapist fiction. Do you think a link to genre studies deserves a mention in the article?  --Jahsonic 16:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  These are all good points and should definitely be in the article. Why not create a new section called 'Problems with Auteur Theory' and put into it everything you've said above? Then other people can add to it. The Singing Badger 16:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sounds like a good idea, Singing Badger.  The auteur theory has also had a hard time with "création collective" (cf the French theater director Ariane Mnouchkine) and collaborative styles of filmmaking that do not focus on one "author" -- styles of filmmaking that have been increasingly common in indepedent filmmaking since the 60s.  Some of these issues should also be brought up in an article on the Hollywood studio system, and the question of whether a director or producer or screenwriter (or anyone) can translate their personal obsessions to the screen. NYArtsnWords 17:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have expanded my original comments and published them on User:Jahsonic#Notes_on_the_auteur_theory . As is, I believe the notes are too bold to feature on the main page, but feel free to use any part you would wish to include. --Jahsonic 11:01, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I do not agree with the above statement that autuer theory is an instance of cult of the personality, or that genre theory is at odds with it. Of course directors of escapist fiction can be autuers, there is no exclusions as such, It is interesting how AT polarizes people according often to their specific interests (see the criticism in perspective section), but in the end it was and is a system to identify the distinction of a film that has an authorial voice versus one that doesn't through the analysis of the canon's of well known directors. This is also an alternative answer to the 'what is it' question.--Filmmaker2011 (talk) 09:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genre theory 

message: In the above paragraph I had linked studio system to hollywood Hollywood|studio system. After comments from NYArtsnWords, I wrote this on NYArtsnWords's talk page. It is, I believe, of relevance here.
:Yes, you are right, I was tempted to link it out of frustration that there is no article on the studio system (which I am sure, is a European phenomenon as well), thanks for removing the link. I thought it would be rather harmless because I posted it on a talk page. I find it interesting that quite a number of pages link to the studio system entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Studio_system , but that no one has written an article about it. The reason is perhaps that the studio system a number of negative connotations related to commercialism and Hollywood. There is however also a historical background, of which I do not know enough to write the entry. For the time being I have redirected studio system to Hollywood, because, if you check the "what links here page", it most commonly refers to Hollywood --Jahsonic 08:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: (Hollywood does not equal "studio system" per se) 

message: I believe that these two articles are discussing the same topic.  Could someone who is knowledgable in the field please merge them? --M@rēino 04:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did the merge (keeping a couple sentences) and redirect from Auteur Theory (created 2/12/06) to here.--NYArtsnWords 05:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge [[Auteur Theory]] 

message: I just did a clean-up of the Criticism section. I removed the whole paragraph about "psychoanalytical film criticism" because it was overly detailed, abstruse, and seemingly irrelevant. For one thing, I don't see how an emphasis on the "unconscious" of the director as contributing to the meaning of a film actually contradicts the auteur theory! Clconway (talk) 15:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Problems, OR, and irrelevancies in "Criticism" 

message: I'm sorry to sound totally ignorant, but I am on this subject, so there you go.  After reading the article, I still didn't know what auteur theory really is.  OK, in auteur theory, the director is the "author", at least in the case of directors who follow auteurism.  (I think.)  Based on this article, I couldn't say with confidence if a given director, say Ron Howard, is a follower of auteur theory.  Likewise, I couldn't say if Roger Ebert is a critic who follows auteur theory.  Some of the comments on the talk page were helpful.  I think including contrasts to other theories, such as genre theory would be helpful.  Also, a history of what preceded auteur theory would be helpful.  Finally, why do we need auteur theory?  I'm not asking about the article itself, but rather why did somebody think it was important to view movies this way?  Lon of Oakdale (talk) 14:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, but what is it? 

message: To answer some of the points here and as a justification for the section I added (criticism in perspective), Autuer theory is something that whilst being fairly marginal in terms of current academic interest (being seen mostly as part of a specific historical milieu within film ie part of the French New Wave) is relevant to anyone serious about producing quality film. To put it another way it is probably more relevant to filmmakers (directors) than a lot of what exists as 'audience' theory because it deals with the relationship of the process to the finished product. Other areas such as genre studies deal with the choices made and their perception by audiences rather than defining wherein lie the 'sources' of quality. A major issue with this article in my opinion is it's focus on the  question of who is the author. Take for instance the work of Andrew Sarris which has only the briefest of mention in the article next to Pauline Kael (who's motivation as a writer was to catch peoples attention on the subject of specific films for mainstream newspaper articles, not to advance autuer theory through debate). Upshot is that to me this article is incomplete for something that is and always will be of importance, if only to filmmakers, and it should contain more information and examples about the 'signatures' of respected directors. I would be grateful for any assistance in improving (with examples) the section 'criticism in perspective' and would welcome a debate here upon this and other sections of the article. I intend to add more for instance on Andrew Sarris, without generally removing or changing anything within it's current form, which is factual but incomplete or not comprehensive enough in my opinion. --Filmmaker2011 (talk) 09:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your "Criticism in Perspective" section is overwhelmingly your own opinion. You cite no references and the language and material would be better suited for an essay, not as part of an encyclopedic entry. I am, therefore, removing it. --Lindhorst (talk) 10:30, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I simply do not agree, there are plenty of citations available they just haven't been added yet. If the language is not appropriate then as I stated above others are welcome to change it. I made other changes which you have not found fit to just vanish. Statements like all the criticism in this article or those available anywhere are only from writers (with none from other important team members) is a fact. If you like we can seek arbitration from an administrator but I re-adding this section, and when I have time will add citations and clean it up. I spent a lot of time on the research for this, and have relevant qualifications. I can see no other edits from you in this or any other subject area  Lindhorst and to label this vandalism calls into your judgement into question--Filmmaker2011 (talk) 09:11, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The question of authorial authority is a touchy one with writers who are over represented in theory about a practical art.--Filmmaker2011 (talk) 09:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Encyclopaedic is a standard of perfection of collections of data that is never reached (athough we strive for it). Where does it say that example is meaningless in wikipedia guidelines? Example in some cases is as good as citation which unless the citation is fully verified (how is that done by whom?) can be extremely misleading. There are things to be understood (there is plenty of evidence for problems with this see above) about AT that can only be done in analysis, and I felt that there were points that could be clarified using an analysis of critism (although I admit my bias is as clear as the writers but I didn't delete their opinion!). How then would you Lindhorst include the fact that films like 'In the mood for love' exist alongside the 'criticism' from writers that say a writer is the author of a film? Style notwithstanding, the content should stand.--Filmmaker2011 (talk) 09:41, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I will rephrase my argument. The section "Criticism in Perspective" gives undue weight to the opinion that the criticism of AT is fundamentally flawed because said criticism comes only from writers. Until you provide legitimate sources that also express this opinion, it remains a viewpoint not suitable for inclusion in this article. A promise to provide sources later can hardly be seen as a reasonable excuse if you are as familiar with the material as you claim to be. You've used far more time in countering my argument than it would take to type in a source that you have researched. I do think seeking arbitration from an administrator would be appropriate as I do not think we will come to a satisfactory conclusion. You are right that I am new to Wikipedia and since you have offered to seek out arbitration, please do. As a show of good faith, I will leave the section untouched until such arbitration (as long as you seek arbitration within a reasonable amount of time; say, a month). --Lindhorst (talk) 20:30, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

text: I already sought advice and if you want you can read the reply on my talk page. You are not wrong about the rules as they apply to this part of my input to this article (enjoy the infinite telescoping amount of clean up work, or is your interest solely limited to this article?). However, AT is wholly misrepresented by populist critics like Kael. For this there is a mountain of citation, because it involves the well documented, self serving critic war in the press between kael an sarris (like the famous quote that kael talked down to her audience whereas sarris challenged them to raise to his level - he is a professor at columbia). My aim was to restrict myself to using the writers arguments to help clarify an esoteric subject which people are having problems with (see above) without giving further undeserved weight to this subject which is in my opinion by application of common sense (logic and experience) off topic. You would probably easily get support for your 'crusade', simply because it is much easier to rigidly apply rules than it is to add to (difficult) content. I'm sure many would agree that this is exactly where wikipedia is better than any encyclopedia, because it goes further, including a lot of original collations of information ('original research' yes) that are inherently biased in a myriad of ways by those collating. The ideals are just a kind of loose limit to strive for. There are other online encyclopedias that are written by a small number of admin, but these aren't as popular nor as comprehensive. You yourself were obviously motivated by a bias of interest, you seem to write very well :). Where is the debate of the points that I raised? The talk page isn't only for admin like application of rules. Exactly how is the content (not form) wrong in your opinion? I refer to a common knowledge (that was the point of the legal decision example that I removed because out of all the new points I raised that was the most obvious ie that the law didn't look to AT to make it's decision), a common knowledge between those to whom AT really applies ie directors. To everyone else this is esoteric. So look, you win, go ahead remove away and maybe I'll take the time to add some specific citable references to the nub of the writers 'hijack', but probably not because to me that would detract, confuse and mislead further the people coming to the page to seriously learn about AT. Without my addition the article is maybe O'level film studies level, all present and correct, but just make sure you unlearn what you were taught if you want to apply it in the real world.--Filmmaker2011 (talk) 07:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

text: So you don't have to go to my talk page and sift, here is the relevant part of the answer from the admin:
 'The thing to do is always, as you have done, to begin by explaining why you disagree and also (where possible) addressing any legitimate concerns they may have. You should add sources as soon as possible; while Wikipedia:Verifiability encourages tagging content that is in dispute before removing it'
You should become a little more familiar with the protocol and atmosphere of the community before you start policing others hard work and good intentions. Your initial labeling of vandalism is wholly inappropriate (it shows in your history) and also displays a lack of balance in your approach, which ironically calls on guidelines whose sole purpose is as arbiter of balance. It is not I that looses out, I am not defending what I wrote out of egotism or stubbornness (I don't get a byline here), it is AT itself, wikipedia and those who can make use of a better understanding. Theories have no use unless they can be applied, if they are in doubt years after their formulation then they should be confined to minor a minor historical reference.--Filmmaker2011 (talk) 08:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

text: I think it's worth pointing out that 2 through 10, all but 1 of the citations in this article are from the criticism section! Strike anyone else as being strange? It can be equated to scientific theories which are only applied by practitioners of the science. Scientists don't critique the theory for the sake of argument, they only go so far that it becomes useful in practice. I don't know any scientists that have even the slightest interest in the philosophy of science, and as such you won't find much written by them even though they would presumably be well placed to speak about it. You don't need to understand the theory of electricity to use it, nobody cares because it's abstracted.  'Unfortunately' with film because it is designed to be accessible to people, some tend to think they know rather more about it's processes than they actually do. Narrative is the key here, film has stolen the crown of narrative from the writer and they are not happy about it!--Filmmaker2011 (talk) 10:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, since someone else seriously toned down the section (and even mentioned that it could possibly be deleted altogether) and you have subsequently restored much of your original research, I am going to delete this section again. You said that you sought deliberation and that it was in your talk page. You provided the relevant "quote" from your page, but I visited your talk page and there is no discussion of this topic whatsoever, anywhere. Please do not take this personally. In fact, I do not entirely disagree with your views. No part of my actions has been based on taking a position for or against your views. However, the content is a clearly subjective attempt to criticize the critics of AT using an argument that has no sources (I've even looked for some and came up with nothing) and is a heavily biased opinion piece. One could easily write a response called "'Criticisim in Perspective' in Perspective", and provide an opinion on why you, personally, feel the need to need for such a section in the first place. You obviously have well thought out and passionate ideas on this subject. Write them in an essay and publish! Put it in the arena of peers; it certainly has the merit for it. It is just not at all in accordance with neutrality mission of Wikipedia. The entry, as it stands, leaves an open ended debate, which is the realm of published papers, not an online encyclopaedia. I will find an administrator or try to talk to the admin who watches this page. Again, please do not take my criticism of the entry as a criticism of the ideas, but merely it's placement within this context. --Lindhorst (talk) 12:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

text: also, "common sense" when regarding any type of analysis or commentary is not allowed. see WP:OR. Active Banana  (bananaphone 12:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Importance of the theory 

message: It's been settled for quite some time now that there is currently a major movement in the Japanese gaming industry - where creators, renowned and revered for their craftsmanship and creative vision, have split away from the AAA behemoths that have funded them in the past in order to return to their roots and produce games that reflect their own personal artistry. This has been referred to the "Auteur Movement" in a few places now and it seems reasonable to include a section on this in the article. While it's not strictly film-related, the Auteur Movement appears to carry the same spirit as Auteur theory: the creative owner being in a directing-overseeing role, a rejection and revolt against the idea of a piece of media being nothing more than a commercial commodity, and well-known personalities imposing their will on a media and saturating it with their distinct character.
The most digestible description I can find of this would be from the Extra Credits video titled The New Future of Japan - The Auteur Movement, which can be found at this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUWFH17Q3Awhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUWFH17Q3Aw
What do you guys think?
67.6.11.179 (talk) 09:47, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Virtually anything can be added in this article as long as it's verified by a reliable source (WP:RS).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:15, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auteur Movement In Japan 

message: was just wondering why Shigeru Miyamoto was absent from the video game auteur list? when he definitely fits the definition, and is considered by many one of the fathers of modern gaming, and is also a much bigger name than some that do appear on the list, just seems weird that you've got the might and magic guy and Ragnar Tørnquist (who I've never even heard of or any of the games he's made either) but no Shigeru Miyamoto  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.6.237.158 (talk) 06:47, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shigeru Miyamoto? 

message: I'm sorry, but calling Nomura a videogame auteur while not mentioning Suda51 in the same category is just absurd.
Not to mention, Nomura is credited here for the Final Fantasy series, but he has never directed a FF game.
Even if he had, he's definitely not an auteur. He likes edgy anime tropes and puts belts and zippers all over his character designs, that's literally it.
Did a Kingdom Hearts fan write this?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dipitinsht (talk • contribs) 15:52, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed him since he lacked any sort of citation for the claim. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 12:37, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  How is Tetsuya Nomura an auteur? 

message: Instead of cramming them all here, there should be a List of video game auteurs. I will create the article myself if I ever have the time to do it. ili (talk) 22:28, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just coming here to say that there really should be a section mentioning how the theory applies to video games designers, especially if there is already a section for music producers. Ganondox (talk) 21:31, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video game auteurs list