Talk:Defacement (flag)

message: I can't find a positive definition of "defaced" anywhere in a dictionary. I do find plenty of negative connotations and I think the use of this word is insulting in the context of a national flag.
dictionary.com
:de·face
::1.	to mar the surface or appearance of; disfigure: to deface a wall by writing on it.
::2.	to efface, obliterate, or injure the surface of, as to make illegible or invalid: to deface a bond.
::Synonyms 1. spoil. See mar.
American Heritage Dictionary
::1. To mar or spoil the appearance or surface of; disfigure.
::2. To impair the usefulness, value, or influence of.
::Obsolete To obliterate; destroy.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law
:Main Entry: de·face
::1. to destroy or mar the face or surface of —de·face·ment noun —de·fac·er noun
Oxford English Dictionary
:deface
::verb spoil the surface or appearance of.
:*That's why the article says that the term has a negative meaning in its general usage. However, this isn't general usage that woudl appear in a general dictionary, this is a technical vexillological term. See a Dictionary of Vexillology. If you think the term is insulting, it is simply because you are not used to its technical meaning. You can see where it comes from by considering one of the definitions in the Macquarie Dictionary:  "2. to blot out; obliterate; efface." A defacement on a flag, whether honourable or not, blots out part of the flag. JPD (talk) 09:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *You can't dispute it just because you are not familiar with the English language.DEFACE:(v) To add any authorised emblem, badge, shield, charge or device to a flag (see also ‘archivexillum’, ‘badge’, ‘charge’, 'device', ‘emblem’ ‘shield’) and undefaced. Please note that in heraldry and vexillology the term has no pejorative connotation (but see also ‘desecrate’ and disfigure).Wayne 18:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *We really need some sources better than self-published websites. I've checked all the major dictionaries (including the voluminous Oxford English Dictionary) and all define this word as negative and none mentions it has a special usage in vexillology. Please provide at least a book that is not self-published to support this claim. Betty (talk) 03:44, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: *@Betty: Ideally yes, we would have more sources, but thaaaaat's Wikipedia. Here are a couple to get started with:  and . I found these by searching "vexillology", "flags", and then "flags defaced" on Google books. — HTGS (talk) 05:08, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: *The term is certainly widely used in vexillology, and I think to a lesser extent in heraldry. (The more usual terms in heraldry would be "difference"/"differenced", or in other contexts "debruised".) I'm frankly astonished that "defacement" hasn't yet made it into the OED (but I've checked, and you're right). I've also checked a number of heraldic dictionaries and guides, with zero results. However, the term does appear in the glossary in Whitney Smith's Flags: Through The Ages And Around The World (1975) – "DEFACE: To add a Badge to an existing flag" – and I will add that reference shortly. I think it's unjust of you to dismiss Flags of the World and the NAVA dictionary as "self-published websites": they are specialist sites maintained by experts in the field and are generally regarded as authoritative. I do agree that additional external sources would be good. GrindtXX (talk) 00:26, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: *We still have no sources to support the use of the term in heraldry (as opposed to vexillology), and my own searches have turned up nothing: it certainly isn't used in traditional blazon. I'm coming to the conclusion that the reference to heraldry is an error, and I'm going to remove that from the definition (pending anyone producing a source). The fact that even the vexillological sense hasn't been picked up by the OED suggests it's a relatively recent usage, and I now suspect it may have been invented by Whitney Smith (who is the man who coined the word "vexillology", evidence that he wasn't afraid to create new terminology to fill a perceived gap). He perhaps adopted it from the conventional negative sense, but gave it a neutral spin. However, that's speculation. GrindtXX (talk) 02:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: *My own search on Google Books wasn't very successful (I found a book that uses Wikipedia as the source, and other results have too little preview to determine whether they can support the claim), but I'm happy my request has generated positive results and we now have more quality sources. Thank you guys. Betty (talk) 08:11, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: "Defaced" has Negative connotations and it is insulting to say a national flag is "defaced"

message: I don't like the example given, the Australian flag is old enough to stand on its own and isn't legally described as a defacement of any other flags, one may as well say that the British Blue Ensign is a blue field defaced with a Union Flag in the canton. I think a better example involving the Australian flag would be the Customs flag, which defaces the regular national flag with the word 'Customs'. Better yet we could simply not use any presently-used national flags, there is a plethora of other flags and while the word defacement doesn't imply anything negative it may still cause unnecessary problems and misunderstanding when we stick the present-day flag of an existing nation as an example. +Hexagon1 (t) 16:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Example 

message: I've added a citation and removed the tag. This is the first time I've done this so let me know if I've gone wrong. I don't like the line that is running from the notes section though. Stanstaple (talk) 21:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of cite tag 

message: The flag of Moldova is Romania's flag defaced. I think this would be a worthy mention somewhere in the article. The two countries are sizeable and independent, and the defacement is easy to see and not coincidental.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.0.236.8 (talk) 09:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Moldova's flag

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