Talk:Richmond, California/Archive 2

message: The city is the 44th blackest in the nation by percentage tying with Chattanooga.
is there are source for this? Brian1078 21:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  44th blackest? 

message: ILike2BeAnonymous, You've made several edits with comments complaining about the picture quality on this page. Specifically, what are your criticisms of the existing pictures? It is hard for the rest of us to 'fix' the pictures if we do not know what is wrong with them. Thanks . . . --Fizbin 12:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The pictures (at least some of them) can't be "fixed"; they need to be replaced. The image quality (and even the choice of subject and composition) is wretched. Use your own judgement. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i disagree i think the pictures are just fine and following consensus i will remove the tag.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 02:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: which ones? you keep on adding this template but don't make any meaningful discussion to justify your claims and this has turned into a silly edit war instead of a serious discussion on image quality, you haven't justified the template with any specifics so i am removing it. Policy lets me remove a template that has no reasoning behind it. if you dont have any better pics, request them or take them and if theyre truly better than the existing ones, i am moving the template to this talk page as it makes the article look bad.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 00:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

text: also simply disliking them is not policy, please be specific and maybe we can find some, surely not every single piture is crappy, you must be able to give one example and explanationT ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the offending photos (the worst of the lot). Keep in mind that there is no requirement that articles have any pictures at all. While it is nice to have relevant photos, it's also possible to end up with clutter from too many (this article is borderline on that point), and also sub-par pictures. What's the point of having crappy pictures? This isn't someone's MySpace page; it's supposed to be an encyclopedia article. +ILike2BeAnonymous 01:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: crappy is not rationale enough, discuss each image here. some of the images you removed were excellant, i would say that the richmond pkwy image's removal was dissapointing, its a great image it illustrates the topic in that section which is transportation and it also happens to have a freeway exit sign that says RICHMOND PKWY which reinforces that its local, just a freeway pic is just another freeway pic but, one that relates locally is great for this article. the construcction site is another example, it is very relevant to the construction boom section. i think that its not out of the question to remove some pictures, but i think a image gallery is at hand or at the very least a creation of a wikipedia commons images of richmond, california gallery on commons first. and DISCUSS it here first, and wait to get a response and green lightT ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 18:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: there is also no requirement to remove images and what youre doing is uncalled for, you shouldnt be bold when others object, and i dont unilaterally object to any content changes with regards to pictures but its disheartening that you dont listen to the fact that i would like to talk about it, and that your justifications for removeal of some images is nearly baseless and you have removed good pictures and left large swaths blank of very helpful illustrations, i would like to be consulted and its the most disheartening that youre rationale for reguttting the article was based on half a dozen apostrophes which were harmless, when editing wikipedia it is custom to revert very superfictial good edits to revert removed content. i have put the pics AND the edits back this time. you seem to have plenty of time and opportunity to edit this article so tell me what is wrong about the the picture of the expansion of the kasier hospital on the construction boom section? lets talk about just that one since you dont seem capable of picking one to talk about. also the word crappy is extremely vague, and is lacking in a subject, what's crappy about it? if by crappy you mean the lighting is bad, the angle is squeed, the panorama is exclusionary, the subject of the picture could best be illustrated by somthing else, see i have no idea what you mean. i happen to live in Richmond and i own a picture-phone in addition to a digital camera, have any requests? and i agree about the picture of point richmond, but its all there is, its GFDL/copyleft and it's free, have a camera go get a free one thats nicer or else give this a rest. like i said a photogallery isnt a bad idea at all would that be a good solution? i think its fine the way it is but if you think a gallery would work just tell me and well see what should be kept in the body and what can be bundled up in a nice photogalleryT ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I highly agree that the images on this page are in need of improvement.  There are a lot of images that don't really add value, they just clutter things.  I'll work on improving what I can with the images that are available.  Cacophony 07:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture Quality 

message: *Jahvid Best: Future California Golden Bears football player & track athlete from Salesian High School
anyone have a citation?T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, but I fail to see why you chose this one to request citations on as opposed to any other person listed under notable citizens.--Fizbin 17:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: because it had been rewritten a lot, i just wanted to put an end to it, im all for finding sources for all of them however. T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: jahvid best

message: someone added:
* Courtney Anderson, NFL Football Tight End for the Oakland Raiders, San Jose University,Richmond High
never heard of em, someone have a ref?T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Courtney Anderson 

message: Qrc2006, In my opinion you've gone a bit overboard on your 'citations needed' tags here.--Fizbin 00:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: okay, i was just trying to be fair, since i asked for a jahvid best citation. by the way that guy gutted the images again without discussion.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 00:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations Needed on Notable Citizens 

message: This comment is aimed at a specific editor, who knows who they are. Please stop reinserting your favorite photos in the article.
I do!, thanks for being so subtleT ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not true. What makes any picture horrible, use the pictures title so i know what youre talking aboutT ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stupidest arguement ever, c'mon. That's like Alberto González's arguement about habeas corpus. Obviously whether you claim that is a rule nearly every article longer thank a paragragh or two has picturesT ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see how a picture of freeway or train station or bridge in Richmond on an article about Richmond where they are mentioned would not enhance an article. I have this crazy idea that people who look up richmond might want to know what it looks like, you know like people who look up the san francisco or new york article might expect to see pictures or skylines museums subways ferries schools parks people events etc. Where does it say in policy that images should not be peppered around, should they instead be clumped up together in one ugly mess? or what, perhaps you should look up San Francisco or California articles with pictures peppered around seems to be the precident my friend. The section on education talks about education in richmond, its only logical to include an image on a education center in richmond, like de anza high school, a picture i did not take, i high school i did not go to, an image i didnt upload please dont accuse or assume. your clever little gehry test isnt policy so forget about it, not your article to decide what tests would be used.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: his article has a good amound of images, its visually and aethetically pleasing and very illustrative, perhaps some images could be readjusted resized combined into collages on photoshop, , you dont care about the images supposed peppering you started this whole edit war based on your own personal dislike of the images somthing you never were able to codify in decent words, aside from crappy, when i asked you repeated what image was crappy, and why you never gave an answer.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I indeed do not own this article, what's you're point? How do i seem to act, I am acting. And i am not inserting pictures i took, i am readding images you insist removing without discussing with the exception of intermittant arbitrary and contrived tangents.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: This article is very long and from looking at other articles, the longer the article the more content it has such as tables and images and grapghs and templates. Oh really you finally realized you don't own this article huh? and i wonder were you even reading my and other editors suggestions and demands that you please discuss edits first. thats all i have asked for the entite time.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It is not uncomon to intersperse answers to different questions inside someones text, as long as the layout makes it clear who is writing what.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 07:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That last picture you added (the one of Kaiser in downtown Richmond) is still bland and unremarkable (nothing to distinguish it from tens of thousands of similar buildings across the country), but at least it isn't objectionable, as the picture is of fairly good quality, so I'm not going to delete it. For now, at least. The pictures here still need a critical review and some weeding-out. +ILike2BeAnonymous 21:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with qrc - pictures enhance articles about geographic locations simply because they illustrate the kind of place. A picture of a high school from richmond is a good illustration for a section on the educational facilities of said city. It is a long article and the longer an article is the more it needs illustrations in order to not become dry. The pictures should be left in until such a time when they can be replaced with better pictures.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures, again 

message: I would like to request a photograpgh of the Chevron Richmond Refinary since it's parent company is the largest employer and its contentious activities which bother many in the city, also lots of spills.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 17:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out this one, already uploaded to Wikimedia. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: thank you, i cropped it and put in the refinary portion into the article.71.142.87.194 19:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture request

message: If you two cannot manage to cooperate to make this article better  instead of warring over it with reversions and snide comments I think you should both leave it be for a few days. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 07:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I will try to get along with everyone betterly, yes YOU anonymous.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 01:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Editwarring

message: Small point, but a bone of contention, apparently. It is incorrect to capitalize "Downtown Richmond" (except, of course, at the start of a sentence). Check this page on writing style from the University of Texas (similar to all academic style guides, and therefore what we should be using here). Their guide specifically covers this usage:
:Use lower case for general sections of the city, but capitalize widely recognized names for city regions.
::Right: The meetings will be downtown.
::Right: Let’s go to a restaurant in South Austin.
(Here's another reference; search for "downtown" in page.) So "North Richmond" gets capitalized, but not "downtown Richmond" (nor "downtown Berkeley", or downtown anyplace). Hope this clears that up. +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's nice, but you assume that, "we should be using [UoT guidlines] here" wikipedia doesnt follow them, wikipedia makes its own rules out of everyone else's by consensus, and sometimes it depends on the article, british topics will have british spelling, american topics will have american spellings, or whoever starts the article first, unless its clearly american or vice versa, in that case even an article on big ben will have to spell words like color as "colour" whether it was begun by an american or not. Look this is really quite simple, Downtown Richmond is the subject not downtown Richmond, Downtown Richmond is a particular downtown, its not, where did you go? i went downtown, its where did you go i went to Downtown Richmond.  It is a particularization of a noun, a proper place. Place names are capitalized, ALL NAMES ARE CAPITALIZED, ask on the help desk or somthing, im quite certain.  T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 02:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about, "all names are capitalized"? All proper names are capitalized. "Richmond" is a proper name, therefore capitalized. But "downtown Richmond" is not a proper name. So what if it's a particular place? And what do you think is a "particularization", anyhow? Not a valid concept to apply here.  Sorry, pal, it's the rest of the world vs. you here. It's a particular downtown, and it ain't capitalized. Those are the rules; I don't make them. +ILike2BeAnonymous 03:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you dont speak for the world, and what rules are you talking about?T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 06:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, that one, single editor who replied to you at the "reference desk" is mistaken. MOS:CAPS actually says nothing about this particular situation; it only refers to directions as parts of names, like "Southern California", which are capitalized (as I pointed out North Richmond is properly as well). But "downtown" is not. I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than that. I can find dozens more usage guides out there, from reputable places like well-known universities, that all agree that as a phrase, "downtown [Anywheresville]" does not get capitalized. Find something else to worry about. +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: downtown Richmond is not capitalized when speaking of the city's neighborhood, but it is capitalized when speaking of the neighborhood. Wikipedia doesn't follow the grammer guides you have refered to. And again they are not speaking of the particular district, they are speaking of an area within a city. I'll try and find more info on MOS:CAPS71.142.87.194 19:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What? That doesn't even make sense. You basically have no argument, and just "believe" that it should be capitalized for some reason. And it's hard to take someone seriously in a discussion about rules of English usage who spells it "grammer" (not to mention "refered"). And MOS:CAPS ain't gonna help you here; all it covers is place names that contain directions (e.g., Southern California). +ILike2BeAnonymous 19:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yes your really gonna win this arguement with bombastic comments about my spelling.(end sarcazm) ooops did i put in a z, it must be spelled that way eh?T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 00:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Qrc2006: As far as I remember your old userpage which is now blanked you admitted that you are aware that you have some problems with spelling and grammar. You certainly do, and thats nothing to be ashamed of. It is however a shame to stubbornly refuse being corrected which is what you are doing now. I can understand that you react negatively to ILike2BeAnonymous' hostile tone. But if you find it impossible to work with him then please go edit some other article - you have already wasted six paragraphs of space arguing over a d or a D, time and space you could have put into constructive editing of other articles and topics - I know you have a wide area of interest. I also repeat my previous  appeal for common sense and a reasonable and civil tone to User:ILike2BeAnonymous - you also have a responsability that this page becomes a battleground over irrelevant details. If you cannot edit with qrc2006 who obviously ALSO knows something about Richmond, California then back off and come back later when you feel more able to cooperate.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 07:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "downtown" not capitalized 

message: I think a picture of a Richmond Police Department car or station, perhaps the civic center/hall of juctice/old city hall compley, this would be helpful for the crime section.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 06:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: photoreq new

message: kellar beach is adjacent to brickyard cove way and is past the tunnel everything on the bayside of the tunnel is brickyard cove and on the other side of the tunnel is point richmond. not anywhere near brickyard cove is quite a strech, have you been there?T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 22:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  keller beach 

message: sure but tidal flats is much more specific see this map. It should read Tidal flats and seep.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 22:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? The map shows "intertidal flats" and "tidal marsh", but no "seep". (There's something that I think is labeled "tidal marsh panne", but I can't be sure as it's barely readable.) See discussion below on map; we need a better one.
Yes it does show "seep" in white, see for yourself again.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 21:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: By the way, while we're talking, here's a suggestion for you, since you spend a lot of time editing this article: how about cleaning up that mess caused by the top of the "Mean Annual Temperatures" table crashing into the text above it? Hint: use the "Preview" button a lot before saving the page. Probably a lot of work, but would help to make the page look better. +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for noticing that, its been bugging me for quite a while, but honestly i dont know how to do it, although i have occasionally ranh into article which have really nice climate tables, better than this one i trialed and errored until getting correct, theres also a random apostrophe on one of them that shouldnt be there but i cant find it on the edit page thats been driving me nuts. im gonna try and find one of those nice tables and see if i cant make it prettier, maybe cleanup tag on talk page for a request for someone who can do a better job with it.T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 21:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  wetlands 

message: I removed this picture for the following reasons:
1. It is unreadable; none of the text on the map can be made out, except for the very largest. This is apparently because of the way it was reduced or converted from the original, or because the resolution is too low.
It is not unreadable in the least i can make it all out, do you have a vision problem? or have you tried adjusting your monitor's settings?T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 21:06, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of "Sfestuaryhistorical.gif" (picture purporting to show Richmond's geology) 

message: the city has a reputation as being a ghetto, being the hood and such is there a source for this? maybe it could be worked into how the city is trying to revitalize the city?T ALK•QRC2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 20:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  richmond is ghetto 

message: strange spelling i suppose maybe even incorrect but its how its spelled: google maps,
71.142.91.34
:Apparently it is spelled "MacDonald". My triple-A map says so. Evidently the city's own web site has it wrong. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: does it really? now that is sadCholga 04:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Nevertheless, though "Macdonald" may well be the correct spelling, historically and etymologically speaking, the de facto usage appears to be MacDonald, as evidenced by street signs, spellings in telephone directories, etc., so saying the former is correct is technically right, but a losing battle. In other words, the "correct" use is what the majority says it is. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another important point is that Macdonald is the correct spelling of that man's last name, but MacDonald is the correct spelling of the street.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the feedback.  Here are my follow-up thoughts.  ILike2BeAnonymous, which street signs and phone books did you find that used the spelling MacDonald for the street?  I checked over a dozen street signs along Macdonald Avenue and all used a lowercase d.  (On some of the signs the d appeared to be not quite lined up with the other letters--I wondered if perhaps there had originally been a capital D that had been removed and "corrected" to lowercase d.)  I also checked two (printed) phone books (SBC and Valley Yellow Pages) and both spell Macdonald Avenue with a lowercase d.  I get the impression that you believe that a majority of people use the spelling "MacDonald"; what is the basis of that belief?  Cholga, I think it would be odd for a street named after a person to have a different spelling than the person it was named after.  The sources I cited use a lowercase d for both the man and the street.  What is the source of your assertion that the correct spelling has a capital D?  From my personal experience, I can say that during the period I have lived in the area (since the early 1960s) I have usually seen the street name spelled with a lowercase d, but agree that there is a fair amount of confusion over the spelling and that it is not uncommon to see a capital D used, particularly from less authoritative sources or sources with less local knowledge.  I suspect this is probably because more people with that last name spell their names with a capital D than a lowercase d.  It does seem to me that we should strive to make Wikipedia authoritative and thus make every effort to get the spelling right.  The sources I believe are most authoritative (City of Richmond, published books, and street signs) all seem to use a lowercase d.  I am sorry if I have gone on a bit long about this and I hope you won't take my comments the wrong way--I am just trying to be constructive and to improve the article.  --209.128.72.169 06:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi, Cholga.  Thanks for agreeing to look into it.  Since I posted my previous message I did further checking of the street signs myself.  I drove down Macdonald Avenue from San Pablo Avenue to about 40th Street and from 23rd Street to Richmond Parkway looking at the street signs at every intersection.  Every one I saw used the spelling "Macdonald" except for one or two that were "MACDONALD".  I did not check the handful of blocks that lie east of San Pablo Avenue--is that where you saw "MacDonald"?  Was it in Richmond or in El Cerrito?  I do see that AC Transit uses a capital D in its online bus schedules.  I think you are mistaken about the City of Richmond's web site: it almost always uses a lowercase d (search of city's web site).  I also checked the web sites of local newspapers:  the West County Times appears to always use a lowercase d (search) and the Richmond Globe nearly always uses a lowercase d (search).  It seems to me that there is a good deal of confusion (or carelessness) about the spelling but the preponderance of the most authoritative sources use lowercase d. --209.128.72.169 06:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I am slightly familiar with the Richmond Main Street Initiative and agree that since the main focus of that program is Macdonald Avenue and the surrounding area they should be an authority on how to spell it.  A search of their web site reveals that they use a lowercase d when spelling Macdonald. --209.128.72.169 06:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well then, i suppose it is now settled, i wonder if we should mention who the street is named after and why, and also the differing spellings either in this article or the article for MacDonald sorry Macdonald avenue article. One note, the MacDonald 80 Shopping Center where Wards and Toys'R'Us used to be was definatly spelled with the uppercase D and since it was how they spelled their shopping center i think that should remain with the capital D also because the article for that shop. cntr. is spelled that way too.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 22:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  MacDonald Avenue 

message: I noticed that Salesian Alumni/Cal freshman Jahvid Best is listed as being from Richmond.
I'm not sure if this needs to be fixed or not; His house is actually in Vallejo, though his high school is of course in Richmond.
DukeB-120th 03:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does not need to be fixed, as these sections mention people who are notable and have an association with the city; they may work, get their education, live, do somthing in the city, been murdered there, any of these.Cholga 05:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jahvid Best 

message: *Hilltop Mall
*Richmond Civic Center
*Interstate 80 or 580 in Richmond or Richmond Parkway
*23rd Street Business Dsitrict
*Commertial or Residential construction site
*Cholga 20:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We need a picture of Cholga?? :-) --Fizbin 23:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Life is not complete otherwise. :P --Dreaded Walrus  t c 01:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: wow i feel so special!Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 21:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: new image requests

message: cleanup for casinos section, there are many articles on this subject but this section is unclear and erratic someone look them up and rewrite?Cholga 06:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Casino cleanup

message: I would like to request a photo of oncomming rush-hour AM southbound traffic along I-80 for the article, so we can resolve this issue. Maybe someone could ask the local PBS, Fox, NBC, ABC, CBS, Univisión, Telemundo, Telefutura, Tele Azteca, and indie channels like KRON for a pity pic or a wiki-use only pic?Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 22:15, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We have a whole discussion dedicated to what some say is a lackluster image, I added the photorequest tag and now its being removed because "we have enough pictures allready" i hardly see the logic in that. If we have a photoreq up for a image of the quality that no one is bothered by we can stop argueing about this nonsense. Does anyone else agree that we should have a photo request?71.142.91.34 01:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think noone's disputing that a better image would be a good thing. It's just that, as far as I am aware, the photoreq tag should only be used for articles where there are no images, or very few. That is, unless you want to do something like this:  --Dreaded Walrus  t c 01:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Photo Request 

message: I don't know how to fix it, but the formatting near the end of the article is screwed up. The Services and Notable Citizens secion is under the Reference section and the Notable Citzens area is completely torqued.--Fizbin 14:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I noticed that too, and thought I had saved a "clean" version when I edited. Seems like the prudent thing to do would be to revert back to a recent un-hosed version. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Someone apparently chopped off the </ref> at the end of a reference. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Recent edits by Cholga caused massive deformation of the article, and constitute vandalism (albeit unintentional). Please check your edits with "Show preview" before saving your edit, especially if it involves more editing more than one section and could potentially disrupt the article formatting. +ILike2BeAnonymous 22:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I check his edit, it doesn't cause massive deformation of the article like you said. So please stop vandalizing the page. This is a warning. Chris! my talk 23:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: With all due respect, I strongly suggest that you take your own advice and see that there are no hosing issues whatsoever, and that you are removing several portions of well cited text with great relevance to the article itself. You in fact removed content many times to the point that I reported you for vandalism, please stop.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 23:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formatting Got Hosed 

message: Recently Anonoymous removed a large amount of content very sneakily claiming he was removing the freeway image again, however he removed many portions of the crime section, and infrastructure. The statement regarding the congestion on Richmond's Interstate 80's discussion was decidedly in favor of inclusion, he lied on the edit summaries claiming talk supported his edits, i suggest we seek to have him warned for vandalism regarding content removal and 3rrCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 22:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I saw that, he should be reported. Chris! my talk 22:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also put a formal warning for vandalism on his talk page. Currently it is on level 2. Chris! my talk 23:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content removal 

message: Sorry about that, I misread. I thought it said "one of the most congested strech", whereas it actually said "along the most congested strech". Hence why I changed it to stretches, whereas I should have changed it to stretch. I guess I should have looked twice. :P --Dreaded Walrus  t c 00:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I've now made pretty widespread changes to the article, mostly fixing spelling, and redlinks and the like. If I have changed anything that is actually acceptable in US English, please feel free to change it back. I don't think I made any such changes, though (I left center as is, neighborhood, labored e.t.c). Again, sorry I had to make lots of small edits. The length of the article meant Firefox's auto-spellcheck feature only went about a third of the way down the form, and I didn't really fancy reading through the whole article in depth multiple times to make sure I didn't miss anything. --Dreaded Walrus  t c 00:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  My recent change 

message: *Your accusation:
"This is the most we can say about this "most congested" business; please don't try to twist the facts to make it more relevant to Richmond.)"here.
*I am not twisting any facts and in fact you removed content. You removed that it is the morning commute. And in previous edits you have also removed that it is the weekday commute.
*All sources and by your own admission interstate 80 runs though richmond, it runs though richmond in the southbound-towards Oakland/Bay Bridge/San Francisco direction this is undisputed. It's clear that the congested portion runs though the portion of the freeway in Richmond.
*The charicteristics of a city are clearly notable whether good or bad. Crime, Demographic, and Climate conditions are all mentioned as are highways and streets. A city's traffic is yet another facet of a city that may be of note.
*Please sign like so :~~~~Yes or No/Comment/Neutral
====DOES ANYONE ELSE DISPUTE THIS LOGIC====
*Interstate 80 from Highway 4 in Hercules to the Bay Bridge Toll Plaza in Oakland is the most congested strech of freeway, the most congested commute in the Bay Area. (the "Portion") Yes/No
:YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 01:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 01:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No; a look at a map is all that is needed for this one. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 01:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, I'm not sure I follow. Cholga, are you saying that Yes, you do dispute the logic in everything you said? --Dreaded Walrus  t c 03:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The weekday morning commute on I-80 through Richmond in the westbound direction lies within the most congested stretch of road in the Bay Area, according to Caltrans, and has been since 2001.
I still think this doesn't belong at all in the article, but since Cholga threatens to make life miserable for anyone who even considers removing his1 precious "facts", this at least isn't untrue. Please don't continue with your vandalism. Like I said, I'll accept this.
1 Assuming he is a he, and not a she. +ILike2BeAnonymous 03:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: By the way, Cholga, I think it's becoming more obvious to impartial observers of this article that your attitude here seems to be "my way or the highway". +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:05, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, so much for compromise. Cholga, you're making it painfully obvious that you're not acting in good faith at all. Like your last edit summary: i dont have to compromise, i have consensus, you not doing me any favors, if you insist on reverting you will be in v of the 3rr. What, do you own this article? And bandying about threats of reporting another editor for 3RR violations after a bona fide offer of a compromise? I'm curious to know what others who may be watching this make of all this ... +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:16, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you keep accusing me of lying and youve called me an idiot. an interstate is not a road and there can be no compromise, it is simply not true. an interstate is a freeway or a highway maybe an expressway.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: if a city's freeway is congested it obviously suffers from gridlock if its the worst in the area is major. youre sentance is of poor quality.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No, it doesn't obviously "suffer from gridlock". Do you even know what gridlock is? The cited sources said nothing about gridlock, only congestion. They're not the same thing. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i am not making anyones life miserable i have always followed consensus on this page even when my personal opinions are to the contrary. can you dispute this with diffs?Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: which impartial observers? this comes off as a veiled threat. youre so-called compromise was belittling and patronizing, after i demanded you follow consenus and allow sourced facts which consenus agrees should be included or else i would report you did you even bother to dialogue. youre so-called compromise was simply not enough, the wording should remain as is in my verion or be improved without removing anything that is stated. im open to that.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like more "my way or the highway" to me. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think you own the article, but I think you think you own it. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: curious what others may make of this, make of what exactly?Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: THERE CANNOT AND WILL NEVER BE COMPROMISES WITH REGARDS TO FACTS, THAT WOULD BE ORIGINAL RESEARCH, PALCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I take great offense that you have accused me of "twisting the facts" half a dozen times, which facts have i twisted-none.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I try to let you guys sort it out, but this argument begins to sound like an all out war between you two. Go read WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND. This is not a place to have a personal battle, so please stop accusing each other. 
Now I will state my position. My position on this is that we follow exactly what the source said. If the source said that Richmond is part of the most congested part of I 80, then so be it. So calm down guys, and start making constructive talk to resolve this matter. Editwarring is not the way to go. Chris! my talk 06:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The sources (this and this) say no such thing; you can easily read them for yourself. (Hint: open the pages and search for "Richmond".) +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it goes without saying that richmond is between hercules and the bay bridge anyone with a map can tell you that, i have provided links to them. in fact the very Caltrans maps show 80 running through Richmond.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 06:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, since I80 pass through Richmond, and the Richmond part of I80 is between Hercules and Bay Bridge. Then Richmond is on that stretch of freeway.  But that is not my point. My point is that editwarring is not the way to go here on wikipedia. Chris! my talk 18:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Yep. (Thanks to Cacophony for that last change.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i accept it, although i do think it should mention that its an annual ranking.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 07:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Since 2001" implies "every year since 2001", as almost all statistics like these are compiled on an annual basis. +ILike2BeAnonymous 00:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: who says? and that's the thing some stats are annual, the census ceratinly is not, its every 10 years, we cant assume people will just know and since the information is available the text should be as informative as possible IMHO.(cholga)71.142.91.34 03:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I-80 congestion wording 

message: *Interstate 80 from Highway 4 in Hercules to the Bay Bridge Toll Plaza in Oakland is the most congested strech of freeway, the most congested commute in the Bay Area. (the "Portion") Yes/No
:YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 00:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 01:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 01:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No; a look at a map is all that is needed for this one. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: YesCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 01:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, I'm not sure I follow. Cholga, are you saying that Yes, you do dispute the logic in everything you said? --Dreaded Walrus  t c 03:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: DOES ANYONE ELSE DISPUTE THIS LOGIC

message: OK, this I'll accept (what's currently in the article):
:The weekday morning commute on I-80 through Richmond in the westbound direction lies within the most congested stretch of road in the Bay Area, according to Caltrans, and has been since 2001.
I still think this doesn't belong at all in the article, but since Cholga threatens to make life miserable for anyone who even considers removing his1 precious "facts", this at least isn't untrue. Please don't continue with your vandalism. Like I said, I'll accept this.
1 Assuming he is a he, and not a she. +ILike2BeAnonymous 03:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, Cholga, I think it's becoming more obvious to impartial observers of this article that your attitude here seems to be "my way or the highway". +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:05, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, so much for compromise. Cholga, you're making it painfully obvious that you're not acting in good faith at all. Like your last edit summary: i dont have to compromise, i have consensus, you not doing me any favors, if you insist on reverting you will be in v of the 3rr. What, do you own this article? And bandying about threats of reporting another editor for 3RR violations after a bona fide offer of a compromise? I'm curious to know what others who may be watching this make of all this ... +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:16, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: you keep accusing me of lying and youve called me an idiot. an interstate is not a road and there can be no compromise, it is simply not true. an interstate is a freeway or a highway maybe an expressway.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: if a city's freeway is congested it obviously suffers from gridlock if its the worst in the area is major. youre sentance is of poor quality.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No, it doesn't obviously "suffer from gridlock". Do you even know what gridlock is? The cited sources said nothing about gridlock, only congestion. They're not the same thing. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i am not making anyones life miserable i have always followed consensus on this page even when my personal opinions are to the contrary. can you dispute this with diffs?Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: which impartial observers? this comes off as a veiled threat. youre so-called compromise was belittling and patronizing, after i demanded you follow consenus and allow sourced facts which consenus agrees should be included or else i would report you did you even bother to dialogue. youre so-called compromise was simply not enough, the wording should remain as is in my verion or be improved without removing anything that is stated. im open to that.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like more "my way or the highway" to me. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think you own the article, but I think you think you own it. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: curious what others may make of this, make of what exactly?Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: THERE CANNOT AND WILL NEVER BE COMPROMISES WITH REGARDS TO FACTS, THAT WOULD BE ORIGINAL RESEARCH, PALCholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I take great offense that you have accused me of "twisting the facts" half a dozen times, which facts have i twisted-none.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 04:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I try to let you guys sort it out, but this argument begins to sound like an all out war between you two. Go read WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND. This is not a place to have a personal battle, so please stop accusing each other. 
Now I will state my position. My position on this is that we follow exactly what the source said. If the source said that Richmond is part of the most congested part of I 80, then so be it. So calm down guys, and start making constructive talk to resolve this matter. Editwarring is not the way to go. Chris! my talk 06:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The sources (this and this) say no such thing; you can easily read them for yourself. (Hint: open the pages and search for "Richmond".) +ILike2BeAnonymous 06:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it goes without saying that richmond is between hercules and the bay bridge anyone with a map can tell you that, i have provided links to them. in fact the very Caltrans maps show 80 running through Richmond.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 06:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, since I80 pass through Richmond, and the Richmond part of I80 is between Hercules and Bay Bridge. Then Richmond is on that stretch of freeway.  But that is not my point. My point is that editwarring is not the way to go here on wikipedia. Chris! my talk 18:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Yep. (Thanks to Cacophony for that last change.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i accept it, although i do think it should mention that its an annual ranking.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 07:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Since 2001" implies "every year since 2001", as almost all statistics like these are compiled on an annual basis. +ILike2BeAnonymous 00:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: who says? and that's the thing some stats are annual, the census ceratinly is not, its every 10 years, we cant assume people will just know and since the information is available the text should be as informative as possible IMHO.(cholga)71.142.91.34 03:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise

message: I removed Drew Gooden since there was no source for him being from Richmond, having lived in Richmond, nor attending a Richmond school. Research i did showed he was born in Oakland and it states that he went to El Cerrito High School in Oakland, however that is mistaken since there is no E.C.H.S. in Oakland only in El Cerrito which is adjacent to Richmond and is a school with many students from Richmond since both cities are part of the West Contra Costa Unified School District, which was probably the Richmond School District when he attended. Nevertheless a circumstantial conjecture is hardly a source, my hunch is that in all likelihood he is from Richmond but i dont know for sure and we need a source on people in the notabale citizens category, before it fattens with another fresh batch or possibily dubious possibly genuine but unknown unsourced entries yet again.Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 03:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drew Gooden 

message: No, it is not.  It's a search for consensus.  And when 5 people support something and only one opposes, consensus is achieved.  Further, in Wikipedia, when consensus isn't achieved, the content stays.  Content under discussion is only removed when the consensus is to remove it.  On April 27, you said "Use your own judgement." (see above).  We did.  The image should stay.  Consensus achieved.  Unless a number of other non-sockpuppets show up with new opinions, end of story. - Richfife 15:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed!Cholga is a SUPERSTAR¡Talk2Cholga!Sexy Contribs 22:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''This isn't a popularity contest to decide whether your favorite picture gets to stay here.''