Talk:Wales/Archive 2

message: I noticed that on this page, the pronunciation is given as /ˈkəmɹi/, i.e. with the "English r". According to the article on Welsh, however, the language has the alveolar trill. I know I'm nitpicking, but I was wondering which version is correct. Rueckk 18:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're quite right, it should be the alveolar trill (well, often a tap, but not the approximant; this is a broad transcription anyway as the final vowel can have various flavours). My browser can't read the character you used but I take it to be the upside-down (turned) lower-case r. Flapdragon 15:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of ''Cymru'' 

message: The map shows the country's location in relation to most the rest of state, except the Shetlands, which are not even depicted in an inset map, as is often done with remote territorial fragments such as islands and exclaves in order to save "empty map space". The same goes for maps of the United Kingdom and England, which sometimes fail to take into account that the Isles of Scilly and of Wight are in England, and not a foreign country like the Man. Perhaps these maps should be altered to reflect this? //Big Adamsky 20:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it matter? The purpose is to show where Wales is, the map does this. Where Shetland or the Scilly Isles are isn't really important in an article about Wales. The Shetland Isles and Isles of Scilly articles don't even have the whole of Great Britain on their respective maps. Alun 18:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether it matters or not depends. But the title underneath the map is Wales's location within the UK, and not A map of Wales with some surrounding areas. Yes, it might be regarded as pedantry. But then again: our articles can always be improved, no? //Big Adamsky 19:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your free to alter the map image to include these things if you so wish. Astrotrain 23:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know. I would. Tragically...I'm willing but presently unable... =[ //Big Adamsky 23:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well we can simply change the title¨?Alun 06:08, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this accurate enough? Alun 06:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The map

message: There is an attempt being made to remove national symbols and replace them with UK symbols. I argue that this is innapropriate on the pages for England, Scotland or Wales; but others seem determined to remove national symbols. I have initiated a section on the UK wikipedian's page for this issue, as its outcome affects the England page and the Wales page too:
Wikipedia_talk:UK_Wikipedians%27_notice_board#England_page.2C_Scotland_page.2C_Wales_page:_National_Arms_or_UK_Arms
--Mais oui! 07:17, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welsh Arms or UK Arms? - discussion at UK Wikipedians 

message: Is there much point in the "Welsh notables" section when there's a whole List of Welsh people elsewhere? Also, I'm not sure that bands (Gorky's Zygotic Mynci etc), however notable, really count as "notables". Flapdragon 23:39, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been wondering the same. (I think I would count Gorky's myself, but I do wonder who on earth some of the others are.) And every so often someone has to go and alphabeticise the list again. I would swear that Catharine Zeta Jones should come under 'J', incidentally: was not 'Zeta' a middle name? Telsa 08:32, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd definitely file Catherine under "J", I'm not terribly convinced there's a large clan of Zetas living near Swansea! Maybe I'm sad, but I do actually recognise most of the names on the list, except for the bands since I'm middle aged and so unhip my bum's nearly falling off! I do wish people would learn to alphabetise, though. -- Arwel 12:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welsh notables 

message: Where is this motto "Wales for ever" used?, where does it come from? Astrotrain 21:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure, but it's certainly been around for a long time. Gareth 22:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Motto

message: I've created a fairly simple Wikipedia:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board (shortcut WP:WWNB) to try to get things started. Please have a look and consider signing on, adding it to your watchlist  and helping to make sure any users with an interest in the subject know about it.  Also please feel free to add things and to change anything you feel needs changing – I'm not under the impression that I own it! Rhion 19:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board]] 

message: I'm not a speaker of Welsh, but I noticed that the word "annual" had been replaced by this phrase. Though I don't know what it means (I'm assuming it just means "annual"), I would suggest that it either needs capitalisation (if its a noun describing the event) or needs to be reverted back to English. This is the English language version of Wikipedia and I think the reason for changing "annual" to this Welsh phrase needs explaination. --Mal 02:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  khaled aliannual? 

message: Is a complete English version of 'Yr Arwr' available on the web or anywhere else publicly accessible?
:http://cy.wikisource.org/wiki/Yr_Arwr Marnanel 21:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yr Arwr 

message: My previous point holds. It is a subjective statement that I am objecting too, it is certainly not neutral. You are missing the point, every country has evidence of a musical heritage and plenty of it too, the point is that Wales is not necessarily known for its' musical heritage and I will not tolerate this prevarication represented in the statement I object to. Bazzajf 20:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are quite right, all cultures do have a musical heritage. Wales is known widely as The Land of Song and the Bardic tradition and musical culture of Wales is particularly central  to people's sense of identity.. And of course there's Eisteddfod. How this compares to other cultures is difficult to determine on an objective basis as music/language/culture/ethnic/national identitiy are so closely inter-related in all societies. We need simply to come up with a more neutral form of words and some citations. Alun 04:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What matters here is not how Wales' musical heritage compares with other countries, but that Wales is widely perceived as a musical country — the Land of Song, and all that. I don't think there's really any doubt that Wales does have that image, but we should indeed find some citations to support the claim. --Stemonitis 12:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree with Stemonitis. I don't think you can say there's no doubt that Wales has this musical image. I am Irish, I have been to Wales and I never viewed it or knew of it in this light and I am not an ignorant person, there are many songs in irish which allude to Ireland being a land of music and song and i'm sure other countries have similar tagline tunes suggesting the same thing. The point as it was expressed to me by an eminent Wikipedian when he was criticising my contribution in a totally different realm is that in order to be neutral, we must also present a World View i.e. that everyone in the World who access articles should understand and appreciate the sentiments of the article, to me this statement about Wales being known for its' musical heritage is a total prevarication and misleading to all who read it. I am from Ireland and no such Wales exists in the context it is presented in this article Bazzajf 13:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, so you don't see Wales in that light, but countless others do. About half of the web hits for "Land of Song" refer to Wales, for instance (many times more than for Ireland). You are right that citations are needed, but you cannot deny that other people perceive Wales as a musical sort of place. --Stemonitis 13:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The comparison with the equivalent Irish sites is informative. There are equally contentious statements there which one could potentially claim to be equally misleading. However in the overall context of the article, I would have no concerns other than the provision of some supporting evidence - certainly nothing that would justify the draconian use of POV templates. What is needed is some balance and judgment. It is also worth noting that the statements in the Wales article and in the Irish articles do say a great deal about the general culture of the peoples of those countries and how they perceive themselves and would like others to perceive them. In Wales there is great emphasis on music at school and in the Urdd and as somone who is not Welsh I can nverthless recognise and identify with the validity of the statements made. Velela 14:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I live in Finland, and several people have mentioned Wales as a musical country and the land of song when they have become aware that I am Welsh. So I would suggest that it is really quite a well known part of Welsh culture. Alun 14:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Would that be other Welsh exiles mentioning it to you perchance, I jest. The reality of the situation which some of you seem to be failing to grasp is that if I went out onto the street here in Dublin City and took a voxpop on whether or not they recognised or were aware of Wales being known as a land of music or song, the vast (and I emphasise -vast)majority would not. I would suggest only in Wales or amongst exiled Welsh nationals would this be put forward. Wikipedia is a Universal resource so the statement doesn't hold. Bazzajf 15:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to me that you are just adopting the POV that because it is something you are unfamiliar with, then it cannot be a generally recognised feature of Welsh culture. I do not think you can generalise about other people's perceptions of Wales. You might actually find that in your hypothetical straw poll of the people of Dublin, a fair amount of people might have a greater awareness of Welsh culture than you do. This is not some insular Welsh thing, and we are not making claims for something that is not very well known. Here's a book about it Valleys of Song , and here's what the reviewer says Valleys of Song puts forward a clear and richly illustrated explanation of the phenomenon of Welsh choralism and this The image of Wales as 'the land of song' is very much a Victorian creation based on the immense popularity and international renown of its choral singing, particularly in the industrial communities of the south. From the mid-nineteenth century to the First World War, the valleys of south Wales were the centre of a vibrant musical culture which embraced not just choirs but orchestras, bands and opera. Alun 16:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: (re-indenting) The stereotype of Wales as peopled by singing miners (amongst others) is so widespread that the film Twin Town (set in Swansea) used it in its tagline, which begins  "Rugby. Tom Jones. Male Voice Choirs. Shirley Bassey." For context, you can read the other stereotypes in the tagline at IMDb's page on it. Telsa (talk) 17:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am engaging in healthy debate, if I wanted to flamebait as you put it, I would be far more provocative. I am entitled to my opinion and if some people disagree with me, that is their right too, as I browse wikipedia, if I see something I disagree with, I engage in discussion and argument about it, that to you may appear as flamebaiting from a troll but to me that is why discussion pages are here. The  on the Wikipedia page was done erroneously when I was experimenting with the neutrality insert and trying to make it function. In an ideal World, Mrs Trellis, we would all agree with each other, tell each other how wonderful we are and consensus would be a byword for communication. The reality is that opinions differ and if my style of putting my opinion across in disagreement with others is provocative to you, well that's too bad but I am not going to compromise my style of discussion to appease a sanctimonious contributor like you. If I really was what you accused me of being, your insert would of been removed from this page by me and I wouldn't of warranted it a reply but I accept you have the right to say what you wish in any style you choose once you are following a rational train of thought and not clowning around. I have always been rational with my contributions and the basis of your criticisms of me are foolish, unreasonable and unfair. I can only compare them to the person proffering them. Bazzajf 09:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Bazzajf, you are editing against consensus, since nobody here agrees with you.  Please stop. Vashti 12:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a three revert rule report here. Vashti 12:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Is it possible to edit against consensus? He is just starting a one man edit war. Be that as it may, I think Bazzajf is simply ignorant of the facts. It is one thing to demand verifiability, but if we verify this statement and he then claims this is not neutral, he needs to provide some evidence (verifiability) for his point of view. So in order to make a neutral statement, ie one that gives both points of view, we need to verify both points of view. So can Bazzajf provide a verifiable source for the proposition that Wales is not well known for it's musical herritage? Alun 13:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello Alun, thank you for your contribution. Can I put two points to you, firstly in relation to editing against consensus, to answer "yes" - it is possible to edit against consensus. People like me stand on my own two feet, stand up to scrutiny, stand up to debate and discussion, stand up to a weight of opinion against me and stand behind my name and only my name each time I weigh in with my opinion. It is my belief that many others however employ sockpuppets to corroborate and support their point of view which in my view is a very cowardly and dishonourable method of "argueing" one's point. This is the reason why you can edit against consensus, because if there was a stipulation against it, the victim of the stipulation would employ the use of sockpuppets. I'm sure there are some contributors on here who employ them e.g. Velela, Mrs Trellis, Vashti, Stemonitis.
My 2nd point concerns the verifiable source issue, I should not have to provide verifiable source as an alternative to the one provided if I do not subscribe to the verifiability of the source provided to support the supposition that "Wales is known for its' musicla heritage etc." Thank you Bazzajf 14:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If you disagree with the Encyclopaedia Britannica and all the other editors who have commented to date, Wikipedia policy requires you to provide a source if you want your opinion included in the article. Vashti 14:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, if verifyability is provided, as it has been, then it is not good enough to just dismiss the source, you have to provide some evidence that it is not a reliable source. I would also point out that the criterion for inclusion on wikipedia is verifiability not truth (see WP:V). It does not matter what you think, if there is a published source that is considered reliable, then it is verified. So the onus really is on you to either show that the source is not reliable, or to produce another source that contradicts this one. Alun 14:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  It's not verifiable, where in the Encyclopedia Britannica does it say "Wales is known for its' musical heritage". IT DOESN'T, it may refer to the "Land of Song" but that is merely a tagline and not a factual reference from the Encyclopedia. Bazzajf 14:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says "Wales is popularly known as the Land of Song" and that its culture is rooted in aural art forms.  That this is mentioned in an extremely brief encyclopaedia article is certainly sufficient evidence that Wales *is* known for its musical heritage. Vashti 14:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Get with the programme, it's a tagline, a catchphrase, it is a sorry state of affairs if someone is using a tagline as verifiable proof of the supposition that Wales is known for its' musical heritage. Surely someone can provide more verifiable references than this. Bazzajf 15:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You stated above that there was no evidence that Wales was known as "the land of song" or "a land of song", because you'd never heard of it.  When you're told that one of the most reputable encyclopaedias in the world describes it as such, you dismiss it.  Is this your good faith in action? Vashti 15:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  DON'T MISQUOTE ME, DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, Don't try and embellish your argument with falsehoods in the best traditions of a tabloid journalist. I never said "there was no evidence that Wales was known as "the land of song" or "a land of song"", Show me where I said this. You have lost any diminishing credibility you ever possessed. You are a fraud. I have no intention of dealing with people who lie, you have no honour and therefore I have little or no time for you. Let that not prevent me from wishing you all the best in your future pursuits. Good luck. Bazzajf 16:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "The reality of the situation which some of you seem to be failing to grasp is that if I went out onto the street here in Dublin City and took a voxpop on whether or not they recognised or were aware of Wales being known as a land of music or song, the vast (and I emphasise -vast)majority would not. I would suggest only in Wales or amongst exiled Welsh nationals would this be put forward. Wikipedia is a Universal resource so the statement doesn't hold. Bazzajf 15:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow.  Your dedication is an example to us all. :) Vashti 16:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mrs. Trellis which I am certain is a sockpuppet has a lot of time on his hands it seems. The survey is obviously one of a fraudulent nature. Why? Because I am certain if it were a bonafide survey, then at least one if not several more of the respondents would of replied that Wales is the land of RUGBY but as Mrs. Trellis may have little or no interest in sport, he failed to include this as a response in his self-serving survey. Bazzajf 09:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes I had some time on my hands, - I was on holiday. A better challenge would have been around the demographics of those surveyed which was much more interesting because it would appear that in rural Ireland (and I am sure that the people of Gort will forgive me for that description) most of the shopping at supermarkets is a task that seems to fall to women, and it would seem women of a certain age. There was also a football match on on television at the time. But skewed as the sample may have been, I value the opinion of Irish women as being as good as any other and possibly much better than some. Mrs Trellis 22:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have been called once already on your assertions that everyone who disagrees with you is a sockpuppet.  You chose not to back them up or substantiate them.  Either do so, or stop libelling other editors. Vashti 22:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hear hear. If Bazzajf has evidence of inapropriate sockpuppetry then he should notify an admin. If he doesn't then it is little more than a personal attack, and is certainly not assuming good faith, so he should stop making the accusation. The official policy on sockpuppetry states that there are legitimate uses for multiple accounts, it is only for certain purposes that sockpuppets ate banned, for example multiple voting. Alun 09:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  neutrality - Wales musical heritage?? 

message: I have protected the page because of the edit war. Please resolve you issues here at the talk page before requesting unprotection. Edit warring is not a solution to a conflict. Thank you. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: "Welsh arts, film and, above all, rock music have hit the world and killed off the stereotypes of pit villages, rugby players and male voice choirs." -- Lonely Planet Wales; page 7; Abigail Hole, Etain O'Carroll, John King; .
"Revered as much for their knowledge as their divine power, the druids were integral to the start of an oral tradition of storytelling and song writing -- one that is celebrated to this day." -- ibid., page 25.
"Fiercely protective of its reputation as a land of song, the voice of Wales is most commonly heard amongst the ranks of male voice choirs.  Although found all over the country, it is in the southern, industrial heartland that they are loudest and strongest.  Their roots lie in the Nonconformist religious traditions of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, when Methodism in particular swept the country, and singing was a free and potent way of cherishing the frequently persecuted faith.  Classic  hymns like Cwm Rhondda and the Welsh national anthem, Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau (Land of my Fathers), are synonymous with the choirs, whose full-blooded interpretation of them continues to render all others insipid." -- Rough Guide Britain; by Rough Guides; page 782; 
"Partisan nationalistic attitudes can lead to extreme, even fantastic claims.  Thus, the musicality of the Welsh people has been traced to Giraldus Cambrensis, who invented counterpoint and gave his people the merit of his discovery." -- Shai Burstyn, "Is Gerald of Wales a credible musical witness?"; Musical Quarterly, Vol. 72, No. 2 (1986), pp. 155-169. (This is an interesting one - I think it doesn't argue that the Welsh *are* generally considered musical, it's pointing out the dangers of making stupid historical links!)
"Outstanding in Borrow's inquiry as he travels the land on foot is the extent to which ordinary Welsh people are truly affirmative of the 'land of song' and of the Bards. ... George Borrow, then, was wandering in a place newly promoted as a land of bards and singers..." -- Stephen Wade, "In my own shire: Region and belonging in British writing, 1840-1970"; page 37; .
"Roberts, John (Ieuan Gwyllt, 1822-77): perhaps the man most responsible for Wales's reputation as "the Land of Song", he published his Llyfr Tonau Cynulleiddfaol (Book of Congregational Tunes) in 1859; and his Swm y Jiwbili (Sounds of the Jubilee) in 1874, both of enormous influence." -- Peter N Williams, "Presenting Wales from a to Y"; page 222; .
Vashti 16:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Further musical references

message: This page was posted on WP:RFC. Having reviewed the dispute I thought I would post a summary of the arguments thus far, in case others wish to comment also. As I see it the issue is as follows (actual quotes used where possible, my own interpretations of arguments used when not, and apologies if anything is left out, feel free to correct):
Is there justification for the inclusion of the statement "Wales is popularly known as "the land of song", and is known as the home of many musicians and musical styles"?
Arguments and evidence against
#"Everyone in the World who access articles should understand and appreciate the sentiments of the article"; the view of Wales as the land of song and as being known for music is not common throughout the world. Bazzajf
#"If I went out onto the street here in Dublin City and took a voxpop on whether or not they recognised or were aware of Wales being known as a land of music or song, the vast (and I emphasise -vast)majority would not" Bazzajf
#"All countries have some semblance of musical culture and heritage, in my view Wales cannot be differentiated from these countries on this basis. In other words, I would not pick Wales out as being known as the home of many musicians and musical styles above any other country" Bazzajf
Arguments and evidence for
#"Wales is known widely as The Land of Song and the Bardic tradition and musical culture of Wales is particularly central  to people's sense of identity. . And of course there's Eisteddfod." Alun
#"About half of the web hits for "Land of Song" refer to Wales, for instance (many times more than for Ireland)." Stemonitis
#"I live in Finland, and several people have mentioned Wales as a musical country and the land of song when they have become aware that I am Welsh. So I would suggest that it is really quite a well known part of Welsh culture" Alun
#From review of the book Valleys of Song  Valleys of Song puts forward a clear and richly illustrated explanation of the phenomenon of Welsh choralism and this The image of Wales as 'the land of song' is very much a Victorian creation based on the immense popularity and international renown of its choral singing, particularly in the industrial communities of the south. Alun
#"The stereotype of Wales as peopled by singing miners (amongst others) is so widespread that the film Twin Town (set in Swansea) used it in its tagline, which begins  "Rugby. Tom Jones. Male Voice Choirs. Shirley Bassey."" Telsa
#"Welsh arts, film and, above all, rock music have hit the world and killed off the stereotypes of pit villages, rugby players and male voice choirs." -- Lonely Planet Wales; page 7; Abigail Hole, Etain O'Carroll, John King; . Vashti
#"Revered as much for their knowledge as their divine power, the druids were integral to the start of an oral tradition of storytelling and song writing -- one that is celebrated to this day." -- ibid., page 25. Vashti
#"Fiercely protective of its reputation as a land of song, the voice of Wales is most commonly heard amongst the ranks of male voice choirs.Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau (Land of my Fathers), are synonymous with the choirs, whose full-blooded interpretation of them continues to render all others insipid." -- Rough Guide Britain; by Rough Guides; page 782;  Vashti
#"Partisan nationalistic attitudes can lead to extreme, even fantastic claims.  Thus, the musicality of the Welsh people has been traced to Giraldus Cambrensis, who invented counterpoint and gave his people the merit of his discovery." -- Shai Burstyn, "Is Gerald of Wales a credible musical witness?"; Musical Quarterly, Vol. 72, No. 2 (1986), pp. 155-169. Vashti
#"Outstanding in Borrow's inquiry as he travels the land on foot is the extent to which ordinary Welsh people are truly affirmative of the 'land of song' and of the Bards. ... George Borrow, then, was wandering in a place newly promoted as a land of bards and singers..." -- Stephen Wade, "In my own shire: Region and belonging in British writing, 1840-1970"; page 37; .
#"Roberts, John (Ieuan Gwyllt, 1822-77): perhaps the man most responsible for Wales's reputation as "the Land of Song", he published his Llyfr Tonau Cynulleiddfaol (Book of Congregational Tunes) in 1859; and his Swm y Jiwbili (Sounds of the Jubilee) in 1874, both of enormous influence." -- Peter N Williams, "Presenting Wales from a to Y"; page 222; . Vashti
#Mrs Trellis's poll above
My own take: setting aside anecdotal and/or unverifiable evidence (2 against; 3 & 12 for) it does seem there is sufficient evidence to support the assertion that Wales is known as the "Land of Song" (1, 8, 10 & 11 for, 2 would need some exact figures) so I don't see any reason not to include the statement (and I say this as someone who had never previously heard Wales referred to in this way), though I do think Bazzajf makes a good point as regards worldwide applicability, we should be careful to ensure this isn't just an Anglo-American thing, and if it is make it clear in the article. The second part is less clear, in particular there doesn't seem much in the way of evidence for the "home of many musical styles" claim. Perhaps this last part could be omitted or rephrased to more closely match the evidence provided. Of course, if someone can find a source than there's nothing wrong with including it, properly cited. In any case, given the evidence uncovered in the course of the dispute I think it would be worthwhile to source the claims made in the statement, and any other claims in the article as a whole corroborated by the sources. The musicality of other countries is largely irrelevant "the Land of Song" does not imply that there are no other countries that are also famous for song, and I seriously doubt that readers unfamiliar with the country would interpret it as meaning Wales is the only musical country in the world.
On another note, I couldn't help but notice that the tone of the debate became pretty personal and agressive at times. Given that Bazzajf is currently on an enforced break, I think it might be good to take the time to cool down a little, and if and when he returns try to keep the discussion to the merits of the arguments rather than past editing history. This, of course, applies to both sides. So many angry words over so small a sentence! --Daduzi talk 16:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just wanted to weigh in here.  I'm not at all familiar with the subject matter, but it sure seems clear to me that several sources refer to Wales as "land of song".  Heck, a casual google on "land of song" shows pages and pages of Wales-related content.  Maybe others have already used this, but this is a good example, just grabbed randomly from the google results.  As others have pointed out, yes, we cannot infer that Wales is more musical than some other nation, but the case for it being known as the "land of song" looks very strong.  Friday (talk) 17:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment

message: If "Cymru" should be first in the infobox, why is "Scotland" first in the Scotland page? Is it because English is the majority language of Scotland? If so, then there is no case here for "Cymru", since English is overwhelmingly the majority language in Wales. Or is this connected to the concept of "native-ness" - in which case, why isn't for example Australia in one of the aboriginal languages and England in Anglo-Saxon? I think my point is that this discussion is motivated by concepts such as nationalism and indigenous rights and is therefore POV in Wikipedia terms - therefore it should stay as is. Also, the case cited above of Republic of Ireland having the Irish word first on English Wikipedia is also probably a case of POV and wrong, and so is France showing Republique Francais first. Sheesh, this is an even bigger mess than I thought! MarkThomas 09:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think these points have already been discussed above, but I'll summarise the important issues here.  The first name in the infobox is described as the "native name", so this is clearly right in the case of France.  In the case of the Republic of Ireland, both English and Irish are official languages, but the latter is described in the constitution as the "first" language of the Republic.  Whether or not that reflects reality, it's a very strong case for putting the Irish name first.  Scotland is a little different from both Wales and Ireland: although Scottish Gaelic was at one point spoken over the majority of the territory now known as Scotland, it was certainly never the only language of Scotland - English has as ancient a claim to nativeness in Scotland as it has in England, and it has long been the language of the majority; it is a simplification, but, I think, a fair one, to say that Gaelic is a language of the highlands, while Scots English is a language of the lowlands.  I would add that Gaelic is only accorded respect in Scotland, not equal status with English.  Wales is somewhat different again.  At the start of the 19th century, Welsh was not only spoken by the vast majority of the people of Wales, for most of them it was the only language (compare Ireland): English was still essentially a foreign tongue - though of course this is no longer the case.  It was over the last couple of centuries that the decline happened.  Welsh also has equal status with English in Wales.  In other words, there seems to be a case for both Welsh and English being seen as native languages of Wales.  The only question, and it's not even a very important one, is which to put first in the infobox here.  Do we go by modern popularity or historical significance?  There doesn't seem an obvious correct answer (although advocates of both sides claim otherwise).  A poll seems as good a way as any to resolve the issue. garik 09:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I certainly don't understand your point about Anglo-Saxon btw.  How is Old English more native to England than modern English? garik 09:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: True, English has been in Wales a very long time - but it was still foreign to the vast majority of speakers until just over 200 years ago.  That was my point - but I agree that "foreign" was a poor choice of word - in some ways it's comparable with the case of Welsh in Wales now, although I suspect that there was more a sense then of English not belonging to Wales.  I agree with you that English is the majority language in Wales - I made the same point myself above.  I also agree with you that Wales is different from Eire and the status of Welsh different from Irish Gaelic.  I've made that point above too.  It's why I said that "Wales if a different case again" - it's different from both Ireland and Scotland.  Furthermore, I think that the case for "Eire" coming first is probably stronger than the case for "Cymru" coming first.  I disagree, however, that the discussion is based on false premises.  My argument, which I shall restate, is that both Welsh and English have some claim to be considered native to Wales - the claims may differ, but I don't think one is a great deal stronger than the other.  They are both native languages of Wales.  In other words, I agree that Canada is a good analogy -unfortunately, Canada is the same in French and English, so that article can't be a model for this.  For simple physical reasons, one of the two native languages has to come before the other in the infobox, even if we have both on the same line (which I would not be against).  Now, I agree that we should think of the reader, but I don't see how having "Cymru" first would be even slightly confusing.  I just don't see that either Cymru or Wales has a much better case than the other for coming first.  If you can see a way of having neither first, that would be great. garik 10:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scotland

message: There still seems to be doubt above about the rational basis of flipping the common name order in the infobox from Wales / Cymru to Cymru / Wales, so I ask passing editors to revert until a proper basis is established. The common practice on Wikipedia appears to be either:
(1) Official language - passed as a law in the given country. In Wales/Cymru, English and Welsh are currently jointly official, so no help there. 
:Welsh is given priority in all malings, and government websites, ect. Weve already cited examples.Drachenfyre 14:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even if true, not relevant here - this is the English-language variant of Wikipedia. MarkThomas 11:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: and in the south of the country. Additionally, we took the modle from Ireland and Mann. There is already precidence.Drachenfyre 14:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "south of the country" is where more than 75% of the population live. And the Isle of Man is not a good precedent - really that page is wrongly formatted, and should be changed. MarkThomas 11:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: gods your so wrong here! Widespread sine the 8th century! This is the most ignorant statement I have heard! Please study the developement of both English and Welsh and where they were spoken in Wales.Drachenfyre 14:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps from Texas or wherever it is you live you have a perspective we don't. The Anglo-saxon speaking "English" widely spread into the Eastern part of what is now South Wales from around 850 partly by conquest and partly just through population spread. The Normans speaking presumably norman french and early english/middle english spread through conquest and population spread all the way to Pembroke in the 11th and 12th centuries. Certainly by 1300 the majority language of Wales was not Welsh. Putting your obvious trolling to one side. MarkThomas 11:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: this is not the forum to discuss politics. Those that responded have an interest here yes, but it does not follow that they are "nationalistic" as you say. Drachenfyre 14:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So when people were busy recruiting for this poll on other people's talk pages saying things like "hey, there's a hot issue of Welsh pride at stake on the Talk:Wales page, come over quickly and vote", there was no nationalism involved? MarkThomas 11:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm slightly worried at your dismissal of many people's honest opinions as mere nationalism, and at your equation of Welsh nationalism with Plaid Cymru support, neither of which seems to follow logically. But to return to the main point, there is a fifth argument that you have omitted, namely that of hassle. If having "Wales" before "Cymru" is going to lead to resentment or confusion or repeated discussions of why it's that way round, then it might just be easier to put "Cymru" first. It really isn't worth spending much time and effort over. It hardly matters at all, so if one solution ensures peace, then why not simply choose that one? If I were asked to choose, I'd probably have "Wales" first, but the majority seems to prefer another solution, and there's nothing wrong with their solution. --Stemonitis 13:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Mark, you cant dismiss what everyone has thus discussed just because you want to. I am changing it back, as it was already discussed. Drachenfyre 14:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wales/Cymru

message: I've archived some of the old material to make space, since it looks like the CYMRU/WALES (or WALES/CYMRU) contoversy is going to run and run. I've also removed the "unsourced" tag, since talk pages do not require sources.Rhion 18:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good move, Rhion.  Apologies for my lack of knowledge here, but where can we access the archived stuff? garik 18:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just click on "Archive 1" near the top of this page, just above the Contents box. Rhion 19:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  I missed that for some reason. garik 19:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archived

message: How convienent that someone vandalized the page in order to present a reason to revert, dismissing the consensis that was already achived. As it is.... I am truely no longer to concern myself on this matter. Can we truely believe there is honest debate here? When those unhappy with the poll results and with the paramaters set chooses to change everything? And no one else does anything to prevent this? I wish I could say something positive about this expierence, but there hasnt been any at all. This has been a disgusting display Drachenfyre 21:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could we lay off with the subtle (or not so..)  insinuations here, please? The Wales page is vandalised very regularly, so there is no call to look for deep conspiracy.  "Can we truly believe there is honest debate?" "there hasn't been any[thing positive] at all"? "disgusting display"? This talk page is becoming unpleasant to read. We are talking about which way round two words should be. Telsa (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Mark, you have been the only one reverting it back since you decided the consensis was not to your own liking. The straw poll was not binding except in its attempt to illistrate the direction which most editors here felt the display name should read. Paramaters were understood and followed, and you decided, instead of furthering the debate here, to unilaterially change the formate because you, yourself, was unconvinced by others arguments. Instead, pointing to some sinister political plot to underhand English. That is not my position and was patronizing that you choose instead to continue a edit war and undermine the consensis we all engaged in origionally. Drachenfyre 16:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Except for when the Queen or Prince of Wales are speaking in Welsh, which they have done! Even the Official British Monarchy website offers a Welsh translation,.... is this not speaking directly to the Welsh-speaking Welsh as well as to the English-speaking Welsh? Is this not examples of U.K. "officialdom" using Welsh as an official means of communication not good enough for you? Couple this too with the trend for the Welsh Assembly to favor Welsh on their internet site, in the Senedd (the offical name for the Assembly building in both languages), and other venues and you have a clear direction and template: Cymru/Wales. Guidence which, while recognizing both languages as official, favor the eldest native language to the junior language. In a simular capacity and mannor as has occured officially in the Irish Republic and Isle of Mann. This is what is patronizing in some of your statements.Drachenfyre 16:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Since I see some of the content of the Welsh food article migrating here (there does seem to be an awful lot of cutting and pasting that goes on between the Wales and Welsh-related articles, and it makes correcting things very difficult), I'll just drop the reference for the land use in, in case anyone needs it for reference:  Agricultural statistics from the Welsh assembly, 2004. --Telsa 07:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I didn't just cut and paste from the Welsh food article. But I do agree that the land use information seems out of place. I try not to delete things unless it's irrelevant though and so I didn't edit that information out.--Sir Edgar 08:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I stuck the land use stuff in originally because all there was was a sentence saying "Welsh food is made from local ingredients". It didn't actually say what local ingredients they might be. So I thought it might be worth mentioning that we have a lot of land used for farming. (And that it's not just sheep :)) It would be very cool if someone with more knowledge expanded that over in the Geography of Wales article. --Telsa 11:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Land stats 

message: There is a distinct division in attitude within Wales with regards to other areas within the 
 principality. This can be seen both in a north/south divide and an east/west divide. This divide is  
 sometimes attributed to South or East Wales being more culturally diverse or Angliscised than the 
 North. (there is a common term which calls them both "the Little England beyond England.", sometimes 
 deemed offensive by Welsh nationalists).
I can't quite work out that first sentence: what are the "other areas within the principality"?  Other than what?  Wales?  But Wales is the principality.  I've rephrased it, though perhaps not entirely well.  
I'm also a little unsure about 'the Little England beyond England'.  Pembrokeshire, for historical reasons (Flemish settlers being put there centuries ago) has long been known as "Little England beyond Wales", but I've never heard of "Little England beyond England", so I've revised it further and made a reference to Pembrokeshire.  My apologies if "Little England beyond England" is more current than I've given it credit for. garik 14:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My English father, in his late 60s, refers to Pembrokeshire as "little England beyond Wales".  He has pre-war tourist material that refers to it that way, and tends to use it to smack down my comments that there are Welsh-speaking areas in West Wales!  I believe it's an old term that has fallen out of use. Vashti 16:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  I don't think you read what I wrote though!  I'm very familiar with Pembrokeshire being called "little England beyond Wales"; it's South and East Wales being called "Little England beyond England" (as was claimed by one editor) that I've never heard! garik 17:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This reads as confused 

message: I recently found out i am half welsh so i wanted to try welsh food one thing lead to another and I made cawl. Anyway it turned out very thick with no broth this is a sily question but is it supposed to be like that?
:As with any stew it depends how much liquid you add and how much flour you use to thicken it.  Whenever I've had it it was brothy enough though. garik 11:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cawl

message: There was some vandalism on this page from the IP address 62.49.179.186. I wasn't sure why the image size of the flag was reduced, so I reverted to when the image was larger. Not following this article, I'm not sure which was the best version to revert to, so I apologise if I've removed anything I shouldn't have. Blowski 14:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The change to the image size is hardly vandalism, but I'm not sure why it was done. I don't think you've done any harm, Blowski. --Stemonitis 14:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Hello People, I went into a shop the other day and found that Wales has National and Family Tartan Colours. I think we need to teach foreign people that even though the Scottish people (I love the Scots) use Tartan more than us, we need to educate the world that Scotland is not the only Celtic Nation that uses Tartan, how about us Welsh/Irish or the Cornish? I think the link to "St Davids Tartan" should be added here. Anyone agree?
Amlder20 16:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Scotland has a very healthy textile industry which is constantly inventing new tartans for markets which don't have them. The Scottish tartan industry recently noticed that Welsh people were not spending enough money on tartan goods and deduced that this was because there was no such thing as a Welsh tartan. Like the canny Scots they are, they quickly set about creating some tartans for Wales, just as they had previously done for Ireland. Expect to see tartans for other market segments nations very soon. -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wales has its own Tartan Colours?? 

message: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogogoch 
Does anyone know what this means? Osborne 11:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See the article, but don't rely on the recording it links to for pronouncing it! garik 11:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia