Talk:Falsetto

message: ``These days, head voice is typically defined as a mix of chest and head voice, therefore created a stronger sound than falsetto."
In addition to logic, the grammar is also off in this part of the article. Needs work.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fa20dit (talk • contribs) 21:56, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tautology 

message: I removed a big pile of references saying directly or implying that falsetto is always breathy. We cannot say this as a single fact when there are very good references in conflict, ones that say falsetto is a clear tone, not airy or breathy. I think the conflict is worthy of its own paragraph, with non-breathy references and breathy references compared and contrasted. We should follow WP:NPOV and tell the reader both sides, attributing each opinion to its author. Binksternet (talk) 17:59, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this revision, but I don't think it's worth a paragraph; it's a tempest in a teapot. Would you also care to take a look at the paragraph on "Use In Speech"? Falsetto is not uncommon in human speech; this is a cultural POV. I agree that inability to speak any other way would be disphonia. I had added research documenting falsetto's use by particular groups that has been removed. Pkeets (talk) 20:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: if I may:O) I hope that the 'breathy' case is history for us so, we can move on. Pkeets, would you please post the research here for the start? Thanks :O) I am not a scientist, as you already know. All I know about the speech use is, that falsetto is used in speech 'to express fun' mostly in theatre. The same falsetto can also become a voice disorder - as Pkeets said - when the falsetto become a habitual and interupting or even avoiding modal(normal) phonation. I had have a client with this 'functional voice disorder' The same seems to be happening when a boy mutates. How it happen may be the matter of another discussion regarding the physiology, once we are done with the speech use perhaps. May be we could work together to find some sources to support/reject any information we have including mine own?  Carlmarche (talk) 22:08, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am skeptical that there is any real controversy among voice academics over the description of falsetto as "breathy". Please produce sources which specifically present a counter opinion, and then we can discuss it here. As it is, all I see is a bunch of personal opinions given without any supporting evidence. Regaurdless, the desription of "breathy" should remain as it is well supported per wikipedia's criteria at WP:Verifiability. Any counter opinions, if they truly exist in multiple independent sources, can also be added. Best.4meter4 (talk) 06:45, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sceptical too. Your aproach of any discussion makes me a bit worry about your future students and all the people you are working with, as you say. What else you need as a prove? Please, do me a favour. Go to youtube and play anything from BeeGees, or type Deep Purple - Child in Time. Or even better, listen any Orff's roasted swan- whuch is in huge majority sung by falsetto. This is the looking outside to double check the colour :O)) That sound you hear in the chorus in the Deep Purple song is a great falsetto. I am used to do this song as revival. I also have sung the swan couple times, however in modal voice, had to learn from others who sung it in falsetto. Do you concider any of those as 'breathy'? Please poit me to any 'breathy' falsetto on utube or so. It looks to me that you do not listen what we say here at all. Perhaps because you think you know everything like a lot of teachers think. You rather acusing us that we are 1 single person than go and ask somebody else or do a single step to find anything else. Please tell me at least one thing - does my written English looks like I am native English speaker? I suppose not while the others are. It make us at least 2 my dear colleague. This is something you will need to deal with, i am afraid. This is not about falsetto any more. This is about ego, your ego. We still can do a great work here all together but not in the way you showing us here Carlmarche (talk) 08:51, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Carlmarche, per wikipedia's purposes Youtube is not considered a reliable reference. What I am asking for from you are published reference works from which we can improve the article. On a different matter, please stop making this into a personal conversation. Stick to the facts. First, you have no idea what my personal opinion about falsetto is because I have not given it to you or included it in the article for that matter. On wikipedia we do not include our own personal opinions; merely report what can be proven in reliable published sources (even if we privately have a different opinion). Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a place to write personal essays. Please read WP:What Wikipedia is not and WP:Verifiability.4meter4 (talk) 09:02, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear 4meter4, this is not about my personal oponion. This is about the fact that you already know that you are not right. You loosing the ground under your feet - we say in Czech. So, you do not listen any of those videos I have mentioned? Tell me one reason why, please? isn't it because those may prove you wrong? I am not asking you to put any of those to the article(apart of the fact that some videos are in article for while already and nobody say, they are not suppose to be there) If the ruless are as you say - i need to look - how can we show to the reader the sound. I suppose we should put examples of singing and speaking video to the article instead your 'breathy describtion', because a lot of people do not know what falsetto actually is. It may actually also happen to your scientist you cite very easily :O) Please dont worry about reporting me. I am really looking forward to talk to somebody who can end this silliness of yours at last :O)  Carlmarche (talk) 09:14, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason I am not responding about the youtube videos is because you are trying to bait me into a war of opinions outside of the realm of facts. At wikipedia we leave our personal opinions/research at the door. Please read the policy WP:No Original Research. You tell me to stick to letting the "experts" write the article, where we must assume you are the expert. I would say, however, that the experts are the published authors, not you. I find it incredible that you and the other editors in this conversation are so quick to dismiss the work of highly respected writers, voice teachers, and performers like Shirlee Emmons, Richard Miller, and William Vennard.4meter4 (talk) 09:32, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, what to say? They also believed that the World was flat for a 'short' while until they discovered the facts. All of these theories were also written in books :O) Carlmarche (talk) 10:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: What an odd comment. I don't think the flat earth theory is a good comparison. The sources I used can not truely be considered old as two of them were published less than 10 years ago. Regardless, it's not like the characteristic sound of falsetto is something that has changed or can be newly discovered. Falsetto vocal production hasn't gone through any sudden changes in the last several hundred years that I am aware of. It is what it is. That said, I can also produce sources that go back to the 18th and 19th centuries that also describe falsetto as "breathy". 300 years of writers describing falsetto as "breathy" shows it has stood the test of time unlike the flat earth theory. Also, you have still not provided a published source with a different opinion.4meter4 (talk) 10:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Excuse me? I thought the debate had been pretty civil, considering it started with a reversion of referenced material. Carlmarche and I have both been completely willing to discuss the issues and have made no attempt to edit the article further without consensus. I think there has been a problem with cherry-picking references to support a particular POV and then being adamant that no other references are acceptable. However, we've now arrived at consensus on two of the issues within the article. Your own tone seems a bit out of line. Pkeets (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Pkeets, I think that is rather unfair as their have been several uncivil remarks made above, and there has been a recent edit war over the content of "breathy". Further, no cherry picking of references has occured as no sources with another opinion have been presented by anyone here after I have made repeated requests to see these supposed "other views" in published material.4meter4 (talk) 15:58, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, it is more than obvious that 4meter4 knows how to aproach any unconfortable opponent. Just curious, have you made all your previews articles with the attitude you are showing off here? You have convinced me that you have absolutely no idea what falsetto is. Otherwise you would not write this nonsense about it although it was published thousant times. I have never asked you to put any video from utube to the article. However, the fact you have ignored my requests to listen to it looks a bit suspicious. I feel really sorry about your future students. With this approach of facts of yours they may have a lot of problems. Carlmarche (talk) 19:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:Civil. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:48, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  You know, I came to wikipedia with quite lot enthusiasm to do good. Me, as perhaps only real teacher here, I really care about what pupils learn, not only my own and not only because they pay me for it. I wanted to give a hand here if need and help to bust the dogmas and nonsense over the internet and books. Instead of a bit of will to find to truth, or at least a question about any possible reference at all, I have seen only ego and hunting for numbers of contributions. I do not know why the truth is not as 'google friendly' as the nonsense you publish here over Wikipedia. what I know is that you should feel ashamed to do something like that. I have a couple of possible explenations to the situation which made me to write this. You must be totally deaf if you cannot hear that falsetto is not breathy(at least characteristically) and also, that counter tenor sounds (at least a bit) different from a falsetto. I have heard enough of counter tenors(on the stage next to me) and falsetto in my life to know this. I am not sure about you, mister singing teacher, but I really cannot imagine to sing Handels coloraturas in a breathy falsetto :O)))) Or, you know about these thinks the same as I, but you just ignoring the facts just because you have the same dificulty to find any published prove of it as I do have. This possibility would put the Wikipedia rules in to very bad light, i suppose. Where this would put yourself to than? Again. i feel thrully sorry for all the people around you the same as I feel really sorry for all the readers of this funny thing around. Now, i finaly know how it is made. This funny rules alowes 'scientists' like you are, 4meter4, to manipulate with facts and spray even more nonsense around. And don't worry about WP:Civil, as long as it protect activity of people like you, I have nothing to do here any more. Good bye  Carlmarche (talk) 03:44, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Going on about 'breathy' 

message: I'm not going to comment on the actual content of the debate, as this is not my field of expertise. But I am going to comment on some key misunderstandings of Wikipedia policy that have arisen in the discussion.
*"Expert opinion" to inform content is used on Wikipedia only if that opinion can be referenced to published reliable sources. If an editor is a subject expert, then it should be easy for them to find such sources.
*Unpublished opinions, no matter how "expert" they are (or are claimed to be) and regardless of whether or not they may be true, have no place in an article. This includes personal analysis of YouTube videos and synthesizing conclusions from them, "personal knowledge", "personal communications", etc.
*No original research and Verifiability are key Wikipedia policies and absolutely essential when anonymous editing is allowed. This essay on expert editors provides more background on these issues, why they are considered such key policies on Wikipedia, and why even "experts" are required to respect them. This article is also instructive.
*Neutral point of view is a non-negotiable policy on Wikipedia. It requires representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.
No edit warrring is another key policy. Not only that, edit warrring is stupid and one of the most unconstructive time-sinks imaginable. I strongly suggest that those involved (on both sides of the debate) cut it out and work on the wording for an acceptable treatment of the "breathy" issue and any other contentious content in the article here on the talk page before radically changing the article. And, work it out in a way which respects Wikipedia's policies and shows respect for each other as well.
Voceditenore (talk) 11:47, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me? I thought the debate had been pretty civil, considering it started with a reversion of referenced material. Carlmarche and I have both been completely willing to discuss the issues and have made no attempt to edit the article further without consensus. I think there has been a problem with cherry-picking references to support a particular POV and then being adamant that no other references are acceptable. However, we've now arrived at consensus on two of the issues within the article. Your own tone seems a bit out of line. Pkeets (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Pkeets, I think that is rather unfair as their have been several uncivil remarks made above, and there has been a recent edit war over the content of "breathy". Further, no cherry picking of references has occured as no sources with another opinion have been presented by anyone here after I have made repeated requests to see these supposed "other views" in published material.4meter4 (talk) 15:58, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, it is more than obvious that 4meter4 knows how to aproach any unconfortable opponent. Just curious, have you made all your previews articles with the attitude you are showing off here? You have convinced me that you have absolutely no idea what falsetto is. Otherwise you would not write this nonsense about it although it was published thousant times. I have never asked you to put any video from utube to the article. However, the fact you have ignored my requests to listen to it looks a bit suspicious. I feel really sorry about your future students. With this approach of facts of yours they may have a lot of problems. Carlmarche (talk) 19:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:Civil. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:48, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  You know, I came to wikipedia with quite lot enthusiasm to do good. Me, as perhaps only real teacher here, I really care about what pupils learn, not only my own and not only because they pay me for it. I wanted to give a hand here if need and help to bust the dogmas and nonsense over the internet and books. Instead of a bit of will to find to truth, or at least a question about any possible reference at all, I have seen only ego and hunting for numbers of contributions. I do not know why the truth is not as 'google friendly' as the nonsense you publish here over Wikipedia. what I know is that you should feel ashamed to do something like that. I have a couple of possible explenations to the situation which made me to write this. You must be totally deaf if you cannot hear that falsetto is not breathy(at least characteristically) and also, that counter tenor sounds (at least a bit) different from a falsetto. I have heard enough of counter tenors(on the stage next to me) and falsetto in my life to know this. I am not sure about you, mister singing teacher, but I really cannot imagine to sing Handels coloraturas in a breathy falsetto :O)))) Or, you know about these thinks the same as I, but you just ignoring the facts just because you have the same dificulty to find any published prove of it as I do have. This possibility would put the Wikipedia rules in to very bad light, i suppose. Where this would put yourself to than? Again. i feel thrully sorry for all the people around you the same as I feel really sorry for all the readers of this funny thing around. Now, i finaly know how it is made. This funny rules alowes 'scientists' like you are, 4meter4, to manipulate with facts and spray even more nonsense around. And don't worry about WP:Civil, as long as it protect activity of people like you, I have nothing to do here any more. Good bye  Carlmarche (talk) 03:44, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sourcing and editing policies on Wikipedia

message: Here's the version I wrote of the paragraph, which was reverted:
The ability to speak within the falsetto register is possible for almost all men and women. The use of falsetto is considered uncommon in normal Western speech, and is most often employed within the context of humor. However, the use of falsetto speech varies by culture and its use has been studied in African Americans and gay men in certain contexts. Some people who speak frequently or entirely in the falsetto register are identified by speech pathologists as suffering from a functional dysphonia. Falsetto also describes the momentary, but often repeated, fluctuations in pitch emitted by pubescent boys or girls undergoing voice change.  
Pkeets(talk) 22:43, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's also a reference which theorizes that US Southerners got the habit from African Americans, but they haven't looked at its use in British English. Here's a reference that discusses the pitch differences of British English. See Palmer and also Dench in a drama and Routledge in a comedy. Pkeets (talk) 23:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: These look excellent, and I support their inclusion. Good work! Also, I appologize for removing some of this content earlier when I reverted the article a few days ago. I should have left everything you've given here in. Have you considered using any of the speach pathology references I listed on your talk page? Best. 4meter4 (talk) 08:38, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at them. They would be useful if we want to expand the section with discussion of dysphonia. Is that appropriate here? There is a separate article on dysphonia. Pkeets (talk) 15:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps a slightly expanded clarification would be appropriate, if only to avoid any other miscommunication/offence to that section based on your initial reaction above. I wouldn't add more then two or three sentences though. It might be appropriate to note that some people who speak only in falsetto have developed lesions on their vocal cords which is why treatment for the dysphonia became medically necessary. Should we add something about falsetto in the dysphonia article as well?4meter4 (talk) 17:06, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe later. I don't want to take it on right now. My complaint about this section was the Western POV that failed to mention cultural differences. Pkeets (talk) 17:47, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Thank you for the posting dear Pkeets. Please do not take me wrong but I  cannot find any falsetto on those videos you have posted. Or may be I did not watch all of them. Woud you please tell me in case I have missunderstood anything? Thank you so much Carlmarche (talk) 09:02, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The British have large pitch differences in their conversational English so that they run up into falsetto and down again within a sentence. Routledge is in a comedy and is emphasizing the pitch change. She is in falsetto immediately when she answers the phone. "No dear..." at 1:22 should be clearer. It's harder to hear the women do it, but Palmer is a man. Check for him to do it clearly at 1:14. You might also like to listen to Eddie Murphy imitating a child. This is within his comedy act, but you'll notice he's very practiced at it. Pkeets (talk) 15:53, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess that's consensus on the "Use in speech" section? I added back the paragraph above with the additional references on the US South and British English. Participating editors might also want to look at what I had done to clean up the "Musical History" section, too. It's very poorly organized. Pkeets (talk) 17:38, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 4meter4, if we're to have consensus, you'll need to discuss changes before you make them. The text about girls was in the paragraph above which you approved, and now you've removed it? I've just added a reference and a link to the article on puberphonia. Please check what it says. Pkeets (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I looked at the source, and clarified the content somewhat in the article. Please let me know what you think. Sorry I missed the addition of girls in my read through here earlier. In fututre I'll discuss things here first. Best.4meter4 (talk) 21:45, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Use in speech

message: See Bel Canto p. 71 where Garcia describes the passagio octave as breathy, but says the voice becomes brilliant in higher ranges after that. Also see Lehrbuch der Stimm- und Sprachheilkunde which defines falsetto as "natural", "artistic" or "full tone". Here's a description from Giles: "The tone of totally undeveloped falsetto is usually soft, fluty, pleasant and rather weak." 
Here's a very reasonable discussion that rings true. See page 14 in The adult male alto or counter-tenor voice which defines the "countertenor" voice (full and rich) and the "falsetto alto" voice (with a marked passagio break). P. 29 includes the description "thin and flute-like." P. 39 says that untrained falsetto can be "rich and strong" or it may be "poor and weak" depending on the quality of the voice. Pkeets (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you so much, Pkeets. I suppose we may need a published recording of spoken and sung falsetto or some article sauing that Mr Vennard was totally wrong because he had no idea what falsetto is the same as 4meter4 :O). I am not sure how helpful could i be in research with my English reading however, I do my best, I promise. We will bust this nonsense, don't worry. I also promise I will look at the videos again. Cheers Carlmarche (talk) 20:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the references have to be in English. If the text can be translated through Babelfish, etc. then they're fair game. This is all interesting reading. I agree that "breathy" is a common method of getting past the passagio, although there are other methods, as well. The discussion of "one register" and "two register" voices is also enlightening. For voices with a break, there really is about a whole octave where the voice is in danger of breaking that requires different technique. However, for "one register" voices, this is unnecessary. Pkeets (talk) 20:22, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: 4meter4, reviewing the references above, would you go with Binksternet's suggestion that we have a section on "definition" that discusses different descriptions of it? "Fluty" or "Flute-like" occurs often as a description, but other adjectives seem to differ. I've found several that make no mention of "breathy." Pkeets (talk) 22:17, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there is room for all of these sources. I will work on drafting a neutral paragraph tommorow which includes the sources you have provided in addition to the sources that describe falsetto's characteristic sound as breathy. There is no reason to censor any one perspective. I am off for now as I have "real life" obligations. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we go after year. I have found something what can solve this problem. We all were right with the breathy/non-breathy falsetto. There are two kinds of falsetto out there. Have already added it into the article. I assume the whole article needs to be reviewed to get more logic regarding those new info. I am not brave enough to do so regarding the fact  that English is not my first language. --Carlmarche (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  More references on "breathy" 

message: It appears we have another area of contention here. Richard Miller states here, that "most countertenors use a developed falsetto voice". There are a whole slew of other references here. Best. 4meter4 (talk) 20:42, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Using the definition we've established that falsetto is the range above modal voice, I agree. However, for voices with a notable passagio break, there is an octave where the modal and falsetto can be blended in various ways. For voices without a clear break, there might be some contention about what really is falsetto. Stubbs above says the true "countertenor voice" is single register and has no break. Pkeets (talk) 20:51, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are a lot of different writers who advocate a theory of 'blended registers', and there are those who only believe in one register. Still, there are others that believe that so called "breaks" are a result of resonation problems instead of registration issues. There are also those who don't believe in register blending, and of course there are a multitude of different opinions about the number and names of the registers among writers on singing. I personally have no definite opinion since I am not a countertenor, nor have I taught countertenors. I hesitate to even put any of these views about registers in the article, as it would not be fair to only mention one or two. Much of this kind of content really doesn't belong in the falsetto article but in the countertenor artice. I think we need to be careful not to get too technical here about countertenor voice techniques; otherwise we'll have to spend several paragraphs writing on the multitude of opinions surrounding countertenor technique. All of that really belongs in the countertenor article itself in my opinion.4meter4 (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine with me. This article only needs to feature the term "countertenor" to lead to this discussion. Pkeets (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countertenors 

message: Only because Mr 4meter4 had reverted any of contributions of mine given to this article so far I did not have a single chance to develop it. His article called ¨falsetto¨ is not about falsetto. It may be about his arrogance, who knows. There are a huge contraries regarding only the definition of falsetto. There are many signs of entirely different falsetto compare those info which Mr 4meter4 such anxiously protects. In England, Italy or Spain 16th century were described entirely different types of falsettos. On the top of it, Mr 4meter4 perhaps never heard Pavarotti singing falsetto, or the falsetto of Ian Gillan. Singing of King Diamond is based on falsetto. What about Michael Kiske? Is it not falsetto? Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston do (did) not sing falsetto? Does any of these falsettos sound breathy? Not to me. Isn't out there published a note about those? Maybe only because 4meter4 does not look for it. Why? It would not fit to his article. He would have to admit that his ONLY source Vennard was probably having in the chair something else than falsetto or he was drunk. 4meter4 quickly opened two or three books and things he had swallowed the World. The whole physiology of his ¨only¨ falsetto is based on encyclopedia? Well, perhaps it is enough for Wikipedia or himself. But not for me. No. There is much more out there only regarding physiology. Much much more. And just because you allow idiots like 4meter4 to ¨develop¨ Wikipedia, the people, the readers of Wikipedia will read shit. Where are any proves of the research regarding female falsetto at 60ies, Mr Know Everything? Feel free to block me again. I have no desire to write here any more. Carlmarche (talk) 17:18, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  4meter4's sigh and my concerns 

message: a five second ogg file of someone speaking or singing in falsetto is worth more than five thousand words describing in words what it is supposed to sound like ... 90.155.34.28 (talk) 15:03, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  an audio recording of someone speaking or singing this way?