Talk:Sleep/Archive 2

message: I read that larger animels (those less vulnerable) sleep less than their smaller, more-commonly-preyed-upon counterparts.  If true, this is certianly worth mentioning in this section...anyone know?--141.157.106.115 17:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Preservation and Protection

message: The article has a paragraph on night terrors, so I linked it to the Night Terrors page.  However, this page and that page have different advice for handling them. Nosedog 04:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Night terrors

message: Hope this wasn't addressed before, but here The snare 16:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: This guy who never sleeps

message: A lot of material on this page sounds like it has been copied directly from some other source without being identified as such.  Anyone care to check it out?
:: Can you point out some examples?
:: Yes, that, and who are you? BTW, Other sites, including commercial ones, commonly (and sometimes imprudently) lift stuff from wikipedia. This MAY be what you have observed. Sfahey 02:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copied material 

message: I don't think it's mentioned anywhere else in the article, but if reptiles, amphibians, and the like don't sleep, what do they do? Do they rest at all, or do they partake in an activity similar to sleep? -albrozdude 04:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The jury is still out on that one. They do have "rest" periods, but they do not fit the EEG criteria we use for sleep... at least that is the common consensus. Additionally, there are not many people studying non-mammalian sleep, so we just don't have enough info. MrSandman 13:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not make a note of this somewhere in the article? --Elgringo18 09:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did. But someone deleted it. There was an entire section on it. For the sake of brevity though... it was deleted. This article could easily become 50 pages if we wanted to.
I missed a section on other animals' sleep. It would be interesting to know which animals sleep and which do not, apparently. Do insects sleep? Fish? Is it a 'higher' function, in that bacteria do not 'sleep'? Where is the taxonomic 'line' between animals which sleep and those which do not? A section could easily be added on this subject without the article having to go to 50 pages...
Nick Michael 13:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: For your information!  There is now an article Sleep (non-human) which answers some of the questions above.  Someone had done a nice job on Sömn hos djur in Swedish, and it's now been translated into English.  --Hordaland (talk) 01:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other animals 

message: http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2002/02_08_Kripke.html
This article recomends 6-7 hours of sleep is better for ones health then eight.  I'm not sure whos correct just thought I would point it out. 69.123.96.192 00:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The trick here is to weed out the people who slept more than 8 hours because they were ill, or on medicine that made them sleep more. The authors here do not (probably for this reason) conclude that sleeping longer CAUSED more deaths.Sfahey 03:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sleep less 

message: Am I the only one that thinks that the picture is unnecessary?  Do they even wear pajamas in every country?  Does that coincide with the worldview policy? --70.18.54.9 11:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: Any idea on this? Anyone knows something about it? One day I was travelling, and sleepy... I tryed my best to keep my eyes open to doon't sleep, and looks like I made an HILD (see lucid wikia)... After a time, my father, that was driving said he talked a lot to me and I didn't asnwered, and that I was with my eyes open... And I don't remember he saying anything, so I wasn't really awake... 201.34.228.145 19:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In 'Counting Sheep' by Paul Martin, it is claimed that humans can sleep with eyes open, so long as they're sleep deprived, although the same author would point out that it would only be light sleep (stage 1-2) as we only fall into deep sleep when lying down. Cotard 13:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Open eyed sleep 

message: Well seeing as there is a section titled "Approaches to sleeping better". Is it correct we should have a section created specifically for techniques on how to stay awake for periods of time. This information would be particuarly helpful to students, and those whose jobs require long or odd hours.
:: but unfortunately, all the data shows that it is not a good idea.. especially in an academic (learning) situation. It would be redundant as there is a section on the effects of sleep deprivation. 
MrSandman
You make a good point MrsSandman but what right do we have to restrict information that we deem harmful? Who are we to judge? The need of staying awake while tired is one many will experience in their life time and so I still argue the case that we should provide some mild tehniques in managing to stay awake as they would be very practical. Also there may be scientific or psychological studies on this would could generate further interest.
:: Wikipedia is not a cookbook / userguide. └ VodkaJazz / talk ┐ 02:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to stay awake 

message: There are a lot of speculative statements and folk medical wisdom in this piece that aren't cited to any source at all. I've tagged a couple of the more egregious offenses, such as the entire section that's mostly just wikipedians listing what they think works without any evidence. Night Gyr 08:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it might seem like personal experience and probably is but I'm sure at least a few of the suggestions could be sourced somewhere. It has the OR tag so no need to remove it just yet. Skinnyweed 16:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced statements, speculation, and claims 

message: Is it right that the frequecy of EEG in the second stage of sleep is 12= 16 Hz? Its a bit too high, I think. Not too sure.......... Alexsanjoseph
::12-16Hz  is the frequency of "sleep spindles", which is indicated in the text, and underlined in the representative image. Spindles are the hallmark of Stage 2, which is why they are mentioned. 
MrSandman 18:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frequesncy of EEG in second stage

message: i have heard that some sleep to help them remember information or answer a question, is there a name for this, and should this be included in the article --voodoom 03:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: see section on functions of sleep. it covers memory consolidation.
MrSandman 18:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You're asking about a specific practice, not the function of sleep in general, right?  As in the phrase "sleeping on it", or in Incubation (ritual).   Sourcejedi 14:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  sleeping to answer questions 

message: The article is currently an article on Human sleep with a small section on Non-human animal sleep (previously, and very mistakenly, called Animal sleep). This article should deal with a wide range of non-human animal sleep--general patterns and motifs--with a small section, linked to a main article, about the specifics of Human sleep. Any ideas how to tackle this problem? I suggest we dump some of the article at Human sleep and fix the remaining sections. --Oldak Quill 02:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this article should deal with "sleep" - what it is, how it works, &c. It should discuss the commonalities between all species which sleep with a couple of sections on major divisions (===Reptilian sleep===, ===Avian sleep===, ===Mammalian sleep===, &c.). If species-specific sleep is different/special enough it should be given its own article (eg. Human sleep). Human sleep would describe the human sleep cycle, human dreams, etc. An article shouldn't deal with humans only, unless the article has the word "human" in its title. --Oldak Quill 19:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with "Sandman." I imagine one could make the same argument about "arthritis," "nutrition," "house," etc. and, still, the great bulk of those encyclopedia article as well should be about humans. Sfahey 20:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, one *should* make the same arguements about "arthritis" and "nutrition", they are not restricted to humans and should be treated neutrally. I would say that "house" is a human concept (wolves have dens, termites, mounds, etc.) --Oldak Quill 02:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that articles should be neutral in as many ways as possible, but they should also be interesting. Now I think this article is most intersting when it's dealing mostly with human sleep, by the simple reason that the very vast majority of readers wants to know exactly about human sleep (except for veterinarians). Still, for veterinarians, there is a section for non-human sleep as well. Mikael Häggström 12:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is the wrong way round 

message: This is all over the lead paragraph. I would describe sleep as "more than" or "a special form of" unconsciousness. Golly, if you're not conscious of your surroundings while sleeping, you are "unconscious."
Sfahey 20:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: dictionary defines as "not conscious; without awareness, sensation, or cognition."  Sleeping, we lack all these things.  I'll add a 'lacking citation' tag to the statement so someone can verify whether it is or isn't unconciousness. --141.157.106.115 17:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

text: People do think during sleep, just very disordered thoughts which we tend not to remember. Also, we are very conscious in dreams, even if - again - we might not always remember them. Furthermore, important stimuli such as our name, an unusual sound or physical sensation, are often enough to rouse us, indicating we are monitoring the environment to a certain extent (although I grant there's a difference between monitoring and being aware of, but I don't want to get bogged down in theorising about the nature of consciousness :-p). Unfortunately am away from home so can't cite any sources on this (!). Will get back later (if I remember) Cotard 13:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sleep not a form of "unconsciousness"? 

message: In the 'Anthropologies of Sleep' section, there is this sentence: "Sleep may be an actively social time depending on the sleep groupings, with no constraints on noise or activity." In reference to who/how many people one would sleep with.  This sentence makes no sense, as one cannot be active, or social, whilst asleep, and the constraints are quite obvious: How much can you conciously do while sleeping? So, why is this here? Slokunshialgo 00:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People may not be social while they are actually sleeping, but are social during the time when people are lying down, preparing for sleep, or other people are sleeping. They sleep, then wake up, the sleep again, and are social during the intervening periods. Peregrine981 18:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Unless you think this is a sloppy way to say that people who are "close" maintain/foster this relationship by sleeping together, I vote for deleting it. Sfahey 22:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think there's more to it than simply "staying close", if you read the source article it talks about how in some societies, nighttime/sleeptime are the times that people get a chance to talk to each other, but also that if there's problems in the community, its a non-confrontational time to take up issues. The point is also that some societies do not have the same requirements for quiet during sleep as others do. Also that sleep may be interupted for social opportunities rather than being purely for rest. Peregrine981 00:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentence makes no sense 

message: The first sentence reads:
Sleep is the state of natural rest observed in all mammals, birds, and fish.
but this is not true in all cases, I have heard for example that most sharks do not sleep but continually move throughout their lives because they need to be moving for water to pass through their gills. Sharks are a type of fish.
:Sharks are indeed a type of fish, and you are right that most of them need to keep moving; however that doesn't mean they don't sleep or rest in some way while swimming.  Ever heard of a person sleep-walking? ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 17:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IIRC, stationary sharks have been spotted; as far as I remember, no-one offered an explanation for how they were managing to breathe. A more interesting case are dolphins, who need to come up for air at regular intervals. It shows how much (complex) nervous systems need sleep that they've evolved the ability to sleep one cerebral hemisphere at a time. Cotard 13:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I also feel that the first sentence isn't an effective opening definition. Defining sleep as a "state of natural rest" just doesn't sound right to me - for one it's a circular reference, and secondly, I'm not even sure it's true. Could we define it as an altered (but natural) state of consciousness from normal waking consciousness? Any better suggestions? Brian Fenton 21:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think sleep is mostly a subset of "rest". There are times when people sleeping aren't resting (such as sleepwalking, as you mentioned) but these are exceptions that can be covered later in the article. Most dictionaries define sleep as a state of rest, and I don't think this is a mistake :) Ciotog 07:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like the first sentence either.  Voluntary activity is turned off, but the brain is very busy indeed.  Most dictionaries are revisions of older dictionaries and sleep research has made giant strides the last few decades; dictionaries may not have caught up.  I too think that something about consciousness would be better.  That might also contribute to an answer to a question above about where the dividing line is between animals which do and do not sleep.--Hordaland (talk) 20:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  innaccuracy in first sentence 

message: I'm looking for a particular medicine that was being tested that permitted patients to remain awake for days at a time. Jachra 23:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compound 

message: Although sleep is a subject that is still mysterious, with many aspects that cannot be discussed definitively, this article still contains too many examples of weasel words and usage. WP:WEASEL -- 201.51.236.252 11:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need to reduce the weasels here 

message: Sleep habits of cattle, horses, sheep, and other animals should probably not be included in section on "Anthropology of sleep". -- 201.51.236.252 11:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animals probably aren't "anthropology" 

message: We definitely need to regularize the footnoting style throughout the article. Wikipedia:Footnotes -- 201.51.236.252 11:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnoting style 

message: It's pretty widely known that Stanley Kubrick slept for only four hours a night. I've heard that repeated several times and even from Christiane Kubrick. Also Malcolm X was known to sleep for that same amount. Margret Thatcher, I have heard, though I admit to not knowing thing 1 about her - slept for about the same time as those mentioned. Should the article highlight some of this - the prominent figures of history who've been known to produce high quality product for many years, have their sleep in common? I think its terribly fascinating. -Gohst 00:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thatcher, "high quality product" ???  What do you mean? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.19.140.152 (talk) 00:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I mean "I don't know thing 1 about her" - I hardly know anything about my own countries' politics, let alone another's and which happened before I was born. I was using her as an example in the broader point I was trying to make about sleep. What I really mean is that some prominent figures have been known to sleep for a low number of hours each night and that there may be some interesting correlation which might be of use. -Gohst 11:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gro Harlem Brundtland, former Prime Minister (twice, I believe) of Norway and former leader of WHO, a physician and Labor Party politician, needs 9 hours.  If one is going to search for prominent individuals to illustrate the one end of the spectrum, one must include their opposite numbers.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hordaland (talk • contribs) 00:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prominent Figures and Sleep 

message: The article contradicts itself about when dreams occur during sleep. In the sleep phases section, the article says dreams can occur during any phase, not just REM. Then, in the Dream section, the article implies that dreams occur only or mainly in REM. --68.202.66.211 01:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dream timing contradiction 

message: The first paragraph of the article states that sleep is necessary for life, but I seem to remember having read somewhere that no one is quite sure if sleep deprivation can cause death. Then again, I've also heard that fatal familial insomnia does cause death via sleep deprivation. Does anyone have any scientific sources stating one or the other? - Doopokko 05:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a very good point. I read of a Vietnamese man who hasn't sleep for over three decades. This article truly amazed me, though. --Ishikawa Minoru 22:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Necessary for life? 

message: I (as my username may suggest) raise cattle.  I live in Alberta and see cattle all over the place.  My Gido was a major cattle operator once owning over 100 head of cattle.  I have never seen, nor heard of a cow sleeping while standing.  They will do do it in a sitting position, or on thier sides, but not standing up. Kc4 07:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I beleive giraffe's do it, as their necks are too large to manage lying down/getting back up again, they snap, apparently, in the process if they attempt to do so. I've not heard the same for cows and I've frequently seen them laying on their sides to sleep. Gohst 03:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cattle sleep while standing?

message: The Van Dongen et Al. paper looked only at 8, 6, and 4 hours of sleep concluding that 8 was enough and 6 was not.  It makes no claims whatsoever about 7.  Can someone please find a citation for 7 hours one way or the other?  If not let't delete the statement. --Selket 04:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the already linked CNN article "The National Sleep Foundation, which recommends eight hours of sleep per night for optimal health, immediately attacked the study's findings and said they can do nothing but cause the public unnecessary confusion and concern.". So I think the figure should be eight unless an even better source can be found. --CygnusPius 06:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  7 vs. 8 hours 

message: I read the article in order to find the right scematics regarding the link between age and neccesity to sleep. Not finding it here, I searched for other recources, wondering wether or not it was bullocks that sleep and age are linked or if it was something that wasn't included yet.
What I found was a pretty clear graph that explains a study involving both factors and their inner linkage. You can find it here: http://www.teleac.nl/beterslapen/index.jsp?nr=574728#b578164 It's in Dutch indeed but the graph should be pretty clear.
I'm not an editor on WP myself so I will not attemp to produce this part in the article. Hope it could be included cause it seems to be something that is forgotten. If not, I appologize, just trying to make this thing more complete.  --Chronix 0:26, 1 Februari 2007
:Thanks for the notice.  I'll see if I can fit some information into the article. Gohiking 15:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sleep according to age 

message: someone vandalized the sleep page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zeamaes (talk • contribs) 05:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please fix this!! 

message: Whales and dolphins are also different to humans: they always have to be conscious, as they are conscious breathers, so only one half of their brain sleeps at a time.[citation needed]
This would seem to contradict the suggestion in the first section that sleep is NOT a state of unconsciousness.
:The sentence really doesn't make any sense.  What I think it's trying to say is that the brain continues to be active during sleep. This is addressed later in the article, so I'm going to take the sentence out.  If someone wants to put it back, please cite it.  --Selket Talk 16:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Whales and dolphins??

message: According to the philosopher Emmanuel Levinas in his 1946-1947 lectures, Time and the Other, "consciousness is the power to sleep". --Teetotaler
Any good geneticist will tell you that it's the egg that comes "first"... ;)
MrSandman 01:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chicken and the Egg 

message: sleep seems to be important for relational memory, too.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-04/bidm-tut042007.php —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.60.2.4 (talk) 10:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  function of sleep 

message: I am bothered by two things when reading this article:
1) It has hardly any citations (I'm tempted to tag it as such, but first I have to look up how), and
2) It is not self-contained (too much uncommon terminology is used to make many passages readable).  Although there are links to explanations, the article would be much more informative to the lay person if it didn't require linking away to dozens of other articles to understand the central concepts.
Btwied 21:01, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Half the point of a wiki is that you can link to other concepts instead of wasting time and space explaining them... 69.105.29.97 23:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: Would there be any objections to a division of this article into sleep and human sleep? Human sleep would receive most of the content in this article and would deal with the physiology and ritual/culture of sleep peculiar to humans. Sleep would widely define it and approach it more species-neutrally: the shared features of sleep among all animals and peculiar characteristics of sleep among major divisions in the animal kingdom. --Oldak Quill 15:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that articles should be neutral in as many ways as possible, but they should also be interesting. Now I think this article is most intersting when it's dealing mostly with human sleep, by the simple reason that the very vast majority of readers wants to know exactly about human sleep (except for veterinarians). Still, for veterinarians, there is a section for non-human sleep as well. Mikael Häggström 12:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: | Animal sleep is human sleep... they are the same. The physiology is the same.. So how would you split this up? Additionally, most of what we know about sleep is gathered from basic research.. not research on humans. Humans are animals (mammals) too, however.. so much of what is in this article relates directly to human sleep. There are plenty of "human specific" aspects to this article. 
MrSandman 16:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dividing this article into [[sleep]] and [[human sleep]] 

message: I've cleaned up the English in the section "Dreaming". I couldn't understand professor Pekka Sutola's theory, however, so I did some research - this paragraph was added in January 2007 (here's the diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sleep&diff=103004179&oldid=102833095) by an anonymous user in Stockholm who also (probably - the IP address is dynamic) had a go at vandalising Jimmy Wales' user page. Unsurprisingly, there is no professor Sutola at Helsinki university or anywhere else. I'm therefore removing the paragraph. It lasted more than 6 months, though, which is pretty good for a complete fiction.
--Nyelvmark 07:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreaming - vandalism 

message: me: hey
I wanted to ask you one more thing
why do we sleep with our head not facing north?
--69.150.163.1 03:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  humans not sleeping facing north 

message: seems to me that sleep is not essential for in the sense that it can be replaced. 
for instance, oxygen is essential for survival: you can't live without oxygen. air is not essential for survival. you can live, although probably not very comfortably, without air. for instance, if you get one of those machines that pumps oxygen directly into your blood you can live without breathing. also most human have lived without air for about 9 month while they were fetuses.  
I think the fact that some people can acquire the ability to go without sleep shows that sleep is not essential to survival in the sense that we don't really need air to live.  But i can see that some people might disagree not based on facts, but based on their understanding of "essential"  it's basically a semantic argument and really don't have anything to do with this article, so i removed the whole part about "sleep is essential for one's proper function".Philosophy.dude 17:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Need for sleep

message: how come sometimes when i fall asleep it feels like i fell asleep for a second 
but when i check my alarm clock it has been sevrel hours?
and sometimes when i try to get up in the morning my body won't move i can't even open my eyes im just stuck like that (i know what's going on but in my mind im awake) till i try to kick my legs up or when i try to roll myself off my bed so the impact of me hitting the floor well get my body moving why can't i just you know get up in the morning like i usually do?-FOZSTER  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.32.60 (talk) 21:31, August 29, 2007 (UTC) 
You are describing Sleep paralysis.  Hordaland (talk) 03:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  stuck 

message: The second paragraph on this section appears to use mant weasle-words and fails to prove anything. Anyone agree it should be removed?
Austin 17:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3.5 Preservation 

message: Well I am just wanting to know some techniques  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Z heezey (talk • contribs) 00:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How can you stay awake longer? 

message: thanks i would like some techniques
zac 19:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to fall asleep faster 

message: This page appears to have been vandalized many times recently. Please keep a watch on changes. Snowman (talk) 22:19, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandals 

message: I know this kind of doesn't belong here, but I'm inexperienced and thought this might work :).  There are probably a lot of experts/knowledgeable people here in this subject area (Sleep), so I ask some of you to go look at the nightmare article, which, at this point (29 Dec 07) is in extremely poor shape and there seems nobody able/willing to work on it.  Somebody here might have the necessary skills to clean it up, as it doesn't look extremely good for Wikipedia, having a 'fundamental' subject such as that with a poor article.  Just trying to rally the troops....  Chris b shanks (talk) 18:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Nightmare article

message: I think the Trivia section should be removed as it is utterly ridiculous as well as completely impossible to make sense of. It has the sentence :
"Sleep is where Ralph is a Viking."
Now perhaps this is some sort of vandalism or joke, but if it's meant to be serious, what on earth does it mean? The word 'Ralph' links to an article on Ralph Wiggum, a fictional character from the Simpsons cartoon. But this article contains neither the word 'sleep' nor 'viking'. Perhaps there is some insider knowledge of the Simpsons cartoon that can explain this, but even if this is true, it does not merit a place in this article as, firstly, the information that would explain it is missing from the Ralph Wiggum page, and secondly, it is frankly absurd and utterly detracts from the respectability if this article as well as Wikipedia as a whole.
I therefore propose to remove it, if no one has any objections within a suitable time frame. --kevoreilly 2nd January 2008.  —Preceding comment was added at 16:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry, it was just vandalism. Pinikas reverted it already. Puchiko (Talk-email) 16:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia