Talk:Saint Paul, Minnesota

message: As this article is constantly getting closer to GA status (and thus FA via A-class), I figure it's time to do a countdown to GA where we point out everything that does not me GA requirements and fix it it ASAP. Calebrw (talk) 17:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would recommend against adding a 'notable natives' section, unless you're going to write it as prose. A link to a separate list is probably sufficient, though, unless there are specific individuals that you want to highlight. Dr. Cash (talk) 21:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Countdown to GA

message: # Generally well-written, see 1(a) and 1(b) - Calebrw
#: (a) Clear in almost all sections. The history section needs to be thoroughly read through, which has been done a few times, but you never know. - Calebrw
#: (b) No significant problems here. I looked for all major MOS issues that I could think of. A quick check for weasel words/words to avoid should be done. - Calebrw
# Sources are looking better by the day. Some missing intext citation (see below).  - Calebrw
#: (a) Good. Footnotes section included.  - Calebrw
#: (b) Lacks citations in several places.  - Calebrw
#: (c) No OR that I see. - Calebrw
#:: History  - Calebrw
#:: Geography and climate  - Calebrw
#:: Demographics  - Calebrw
#:: Education  - Calebrw
#:: Recreation and arts  - Calebrw
#::: Each Museum and performance group should be referenced.
#:: Economy - Calebrw
#:: Sports (last paragraph) - Calebrw
#:: Transportation - Calebrw
#::: Ground - Calebrw
#:: Sister Cities - Calebrw
# Quite broad, but Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Guideline recommends more sections (See below) - Calebrw
#: (a) Recommended changes including health care and utilities additions, the economy and media sections being separate, climate being a sub of Geography, Notable natives and residents as a section is missing completely though there are some mentioned in the prose. 
- Calebrw
:::I would recommend against adding a 'notable natives' section, unless you're going to write it as prose. A link to a separate list is probably sufficient, though, unless there are specific individuals that you want to highlight. Dr. Cash (talk) 21:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Issues

message: This sentence: "The city's current name replaced Pig's Eye when city founders decided it was not the nicest name for a capital and took the new name from Saint Paul's Chapel, which was built in 1841." needs a bit of clarifying. WTF?!?! Is this seriously a joke? My first instinct is to instantly remove it as vandalism, but it appears reasonably well written. If it is true, it needs a citation. Seriously? WTF? Who in their right mind names a city "Pig's Eye"? LOL! Dr. Cash (talk) 20:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'll be damned. That statement is not vandalism. Here's a citation: . Interesting. Dr. Cash (talk) 20:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to see you found the source :) I will be inserting more sources to affirm that not to worry. I don't know if you're from the Twin Cities or not, but in elementary school we are taught the history of both cities and the history of Pig's Eye and the infamous Pierre Parrant is not glossed over at all. Perhaps if we used the original French word, it would not sound so ridiculous. It's quite common knowledge here but I imagine it would sound silly to an outsider :) .:davumaya:. 20:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for stopping by Dr. Cash. Glad you added the ref. I updated and used it in several other places, so thanks for the find. Calebrw (talk) 20:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Takk for cleaning as well. .:davumaya:. 21:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, that sentence in the lead now looks like word-for-word Plagiarism of Dr. Cash's source.  We'll have to re-word it.--Appraiser (talk) 21:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking of which, we should note the name change is attributed to Saint Paul's Chapel. As such should we move the Lucien Galtier out of the History into the Lead? the Minneapolis article is fairly specific for its etymology as well. .:davumaya:. 21:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pig's Eye?!?!

message: There seems to be an awful lot of 'nicknames' in the infobox for the city. It makes it look a little cluttered. Are all the following really all that notable and/or important?
:Nickname(s): "The Capital City", "The Saintly City", "The STP", "Pig's Eye", "Hockey Town USA", "Moscow on the Mississippi"
I would think that 'The capital city' isn't all that important, as it (or similar variants, such as 'cap city') could apply to just about any one of about 51 cities in the US. It could probably go. 'Saintly City' seems to make sense, but is this really used, or is it nothing more than just a play on the 'Saint' in the name? 'The STP' appears to be just based of the initials of the city, an abbreviation. It may have worked it's way into everyday language as a colloquialism, but I don't think I'd list it as a 'nickname', which to me, should be reserved for the official marketing nicknames used by the town's businesses.
'Pig's Eye' appears to be a valid nickname (see above), so it can certainly stay. 'Hockey Town USA' seems to only be referenced by a single Sports Illustrated article. Is this actually used by people or businesses, or was it a one-time thing? Usually, when I think of "Hockeytown", I think of Detroit (though as a Penguins fan, I don't want to! Damned Octopus! ;-) ... Not sure what to make of 'Moscow on the Mississippi' -- it appears to be backed up, but I'm not sure what it references? Either way, I'd probably recommend slashing a few of the nicknames, and rewriting the infobox item to (the quotes also aren't needed in the infobox):
:Nickname(s): Pig's Eye, Saintly City, Moscow on the Mississippi
:Concur. That's too many nicknames. I haven't ever heard anyone call Saint Paul anything but Saint Paul, but those see to fit. Calebrw (talk) 20:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason the "Capital City" is there is because locally we use that a lot. For example Capital City Partnership (number 4 on google search), Capital City magazine, Capital City Trolleys (formerly, etc as well as several businesses . I don't really care either way whether to include it or not. I'm explaining there is a reason it was there for so long because its a common reference to Saint Paul within the Twin Cities. If you are thinking national notability then of course there are many other CCs such as DC, Boise, etc. .:davumaya:. 21:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nicknames

message: Just to clarify based on the edits I've seen today. This might help to sync up the text together which still needs to be tweaked and woven a little better. 
* Pig's Eye Landing IS Lambert's Landing. Pig's Eye setup shop near Lambert's and thus one became the other. It also does not help that today this area is known as Lowertown.
* The Cathedral of Saint Paul went through five (four?) buildings. The big thing we see today was built in 1904, well beyond the early years of SP. The older chapels were nothing but log houses or brick buildings. 
* Use Saint Paul instead of St. Paul whenever possible.
.:davumaya:. 22:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification items

message: Overall it mostly needs copy editing. I think most of the facts are there, just not presented the most clearly. 
Lead
*Add an Also here? "Saint Paul _also_ serves as the county seat of Ramsey County, the smallest and most densely populated county in Minnesota.[3]"
*"Though now overshadowed in population and national attention by Minneapolis, Saint Paul contains many of the state's institutions, organizations, and preserved architecture, as well as much of its political activity." - Preserved architecture doesn't seem to fit in that sentence well. 
*Intro goes:
**settled near native Americans....
**overshadowed
**then back to it's original settlement
*Put all of the settlement items together in the lead?
*Does mentioning of travelers companies really belong in the lead? "As a financial and commercial hub, it is home to The Travelers Companies." 
: I dunno, I did that because I can't think of any economic importance of SP. .:davumaya:. 07:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I just realized Pig's Eye Tavern started it all. The tavern near the landing spurred the whole thing into becoming Pig's Eye Landing. .:davumaya:. 07:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Btw James J. Hill still needs to be mentioned, particularly the feat of connecting SP to Seattle. .:davumaya:. 21:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ravedaves comments

message: Hey I know this looks like its ballooning and that Minneapolis has a very small history section but I am hoping to style this section similar to San Francisco which has approximately 7 and a half paragraphs. I would like to aim for six concise paragraphs for Saint Paul. It may seem excessive but I would like to detail the capital somewhat. Kindly, if you take out some material please make sure it already exists or is copied into History of Saint Paul. I painstakingly grabbed a lot of sources for this section. .:davumaya:. 21:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw James J. Hill still needs to be mentioned, particularly the feat of connecting SP to Seattle. .:davumaya:. 21:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: History section

message: I believe that recently re-captioned photo is of 35E southbound.--Appraiser (talk) 16:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The image is in fact 94. Google Map of the area. This image was almost certainly taken from John Ireland Blvd. Where the City Bus on the far left is heading down the ramp (going right) is from 94W to 35E S. Calebrw (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: O whoops yeah it is coming from Mpls, its that big bend in 94 that goes up and over into the massive merging part. I didn't notice the bus, looked like the bend from the south. .:davumaya:. 18:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah; you're right. 35E isn't four lanes wide before its curve. I don't think I've ever looked at 94 from that angle before.--Appraiser (talk) 19:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Highway photo

message: ===GA #2?===
GA #2 should be ready soon. I think we need to copyedit for sources. Some of the reviewer's comments however I noticed went against WP Cities, which probably reflects changing attitudes on WP standards. That's fine but I'm not going to totally revamp or explain things that have received Consensus before. .:davumaya:. 19:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I think GA is in reach now. Still could use more refs though, but then again, this isn't FA or A-class yet. Calebrw (talk) 21:51, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Peer review

message: GA #2 should be ready soon. I think we need to copyedit for sources. Some of the reviewer's comments however I noticed went against WP Cities, which probably reflects changing attitudes on WP standards. That's fine but I'm not going to totally revamp or explain things that have received Consensus before. .:davumaya:. 19:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I think GA is in reach now. Still could use more refs though, but then again, this isn't FA or A-class yet. Calebrw (talk) 21:51, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA #2?

message: In the lede, it is stated with a book of Twin Cities noir as a reference that Pig's Eye was re-named to "inspire civic cofidence". Growing up in St. Paul, I always heard (and maybe even read in a museum) that it was that the Church didn't really like the name and pushed to have it changed to St. Paul, the patron saint of the first church built there. I'm not sure how definitive the book is, especially with the Christian nature of the quote provided, so does anyone else have any idea of whether it was a civic or a church decision, or a combination? Awickert (talk) 06:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The article on Pierre Parrant has the story I heard before, with the arrival of Lucien Galtier resulting in a change of name of the city. Awickert (talk) 06:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Pig's Eye was never actually chartered, it was merely "well known" as the settlement's name. At that time there were other competing names and the church decided to also join the fray with Saint Paul. Galtier's influence on the settlement as well as the fact that upper echelon French had a stronghold on politics of the day may be the reason the townsmen incorporated it the "Town of Saint Paul" by 1849 (even though Town was not even legally defined). It should be noted that same year both the "state" of Minnesota (MN Territory) and Ramsey County were created. No formal city chartering had even been legislated yet.  Thus it is incorrect to use the term "city" when talking about St. Paul before 1849. Merely, the settlement was given limited self-governing powers in the 1800s based on archaic colonial era processes. City Charter Making by William Anderson is an interesting book on this topic: http://books.google.com/books?id=Lm4WAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=minnesota+territory+charter&source=bl&ots=pWjm3RCg13&sig=VV1u_HtRF40_YwgNvIWknsdK5Hw&hl=en&ei=T5uCSvz0FZGxtgeZ0fXWCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#v=onepage&q=minnesota%20territory%20charter&f=false -- It states Saint Paul only had 1,112 people by the time they submitted to be capital. With these facts in mind and that historical records don't give us an exact timeline account of the "name change," it might be inferred that this wasn't a big deal -- a coin flip might as well chosen the city's name. Thus Galtier's account that has survived today is the only one that has become notable to mention. davumaya 10:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Civic confidence?

message: The image Stpaulboats.jpg is short on source/publication information. It originally had no source information except "Gilman book" which says nothing. I went ahead and filled in the information on the book. But as I don't know what page it came from, which is the minimum that would be required. Really it is preferable to also have who was the original author of the photograph and who actually published it originally and when (without having the actual original publication information it is not technically proven that it is out of copyright).
Does anybody have the relevant details?
--Mcorazao (talk) 15:50, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Image problem: Stpaulboats.jpg

message: It seems very odd and awkward to show a main photo of a city's downtown when it is obscured to the degree it is in this photo by steam. There are better, more representive downtown photos available. JackWikiSTP (talk) 06:40, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to change it! BobAmnertiopsis∴ChatMe! 23:02, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: IMAGE Problem Saint_paul_mn.jpg photo

message: One entry in the List of common misspellings claims that the abbreviation "St. Paul, Minnesota" is a misspelling that needs to be fixed. I'm happy to do this, but the first line on the text here seems to say that "St. Paul" is valid. Any comments before I start work? -- John of Reading (talk) 08:19, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if I'd consider it a misspelling, per se. "St." is a fairly common abbreviation for "Saint", and numerous sources abbreviate "Saint Paul" as "St. Paul". In the body of the article, I changed every mention of the city's name to its full-form title, but I neglected to do if for titles of newspapers and such ("The St. Paul Pioneer Press", for example) because various organizations are officially know by the abbreviation. BobAmnertiopsis∴ChatMe! 17:51, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, I've removed it from the misspelling list. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should the abbreviation be listed as a misspelling 

message: Is it okay to use City Data for more updated racial statistics?
http://www.city-data.com/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.224.82.21 (talk) 17:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Try American FactFinder first, but yeah, I don't see any reason not to update the demo info. BobAmnertiopsis∴ChatMe! 21:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racial statistics a bit outdated 

message: I think that it should be mentioned that Saint Paul was the site of the very first intercollegiate basketball game, played between Hamline University and the Minnesota State School of Agriculture, now the University of Minnesota St.Paul Campus. The game was played on February 9th, 1895.
^ "Hamline University: Hutton Arena.". Hamline.edu. Retrieved 10-08-08.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.161.189.169 (talk) 15:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sporting History 

message: Hi.  I'm going through all the US Cities (as per List of United States cities by population) in an effort to provide some uniformity in structure.  Anyone have an issue with me restructuring this article as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline.  I won't be changing any content, merely the order.  Occasionally, I will also move a picture just to clean up spacing issues.  I've already gone through the top 20 or so on the above list, if you'd like to see how they turned out.  Thoughts?  Onel5969 (talk) 19:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure 

message: Hi! Not trying to be a dick, but hopefully you understand my comment regarding the Sister Cities cite trumping the St. Paul cite in this instance.  It would be one thing if the Israel cities were a new addition, which hadn't yet been updated in the Sister Cities periodical (which was the 2014 guide).  But since it says they've been affiliated since 1981 and 1996, I simply don't know what the issue is.  Therefore I defer to the organization which bestows Sister Cities status. Hope this makes sense. Onel5969 (talk) 00:30, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I do not need to push it, just thought that the agency eventually responsible for such relationships "knows" it better. But of course, I do not have other information available. And its website saintpaulsistercities.org is rather sparse ;-) But, shouldn't then the reference be deleted, in consequence? Cheers -- ZH8000 (talk) 00:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sister Cities 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Excuse me, but in Minnesota, where I grew up, everyone and I mean everyone writes it St. Paul, not "Saint Paul." The local daily paper always has been known as the St. Paul Pioneer Press, though in the digital age it has arrogated to itself the online tag twincities.com, which is merely marketing. (Cf. St. Paul Pioneer Press.) I can't imagine any rationale whatever for calling the city Saint Paul on Wiki. It's counter-intuitive and does not correspond to reality. Sca (talk)
:PS: I'm posting this also at Talk:Minneapolis–Saint Paul, as the Twin Cities' core cities always have been written Minneapolis-St. Paul. Sca (talk) 14:23, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: '''St.''' Paul

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 12 external links on Saint Paul, Minnesota. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Saint Paul, Minnesota. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Can someone clarify why Saint Paul, Minnesota and St. Louis are named the way they are named? Cards84664 19:05, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: St. vs Saint

message: Please do not remove the Photo Montage. Your comment calling it clutter is one opinion. However, if others are opposed to the use of a Photo Montage (or like the Photo Montage) please say so here and give your reasons. Myotus (talk) 18:58, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the photo montage looks fine the way it is, and is in keeping with similar city articles like Atlanta. - Aoidh (talk) 19:16, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

text: Again, I do not see five photos as clutter. I think the photos could/should be changed every so often to reflect the diversity of St. Paul. Myotus (talk) 23:51, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Photo Montage 

message: removed the bus routes from the infobox due to "distracting and excessive detail." I would agree. Listing the Public transportation service is good enough. However, it did get me thinking why are the Hwy and Interstate Routes in infobox in the first place? Looking at other the pages of other cities of similar size many do not list them in the infobox. They are already listed in the "Transportation" section. In a similar vein of "distracting and excessive detail" should the Hwy and Interstate Routes the infobox be removed? Myotus (talk) 15:15, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Myotus, I think that is a very interesting idea. I would agree with you idea about the highways. If a more senior editor than me has a different judgement, I would accept it. If you decide to go ahead with removing that from the infobox, which would have my full approval, would you also do the same to Minneapolis, which is also one of the few cities that has the same highway infobox problem as St. Paul?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minneaditor (talk • contribs) 18:34, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hwy and Interstate Routes in infobox 

message: *Kyle Altman (born 1986), soccer player  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:2143:8500:4041:4F8C:A109:B95D (talk) 23:59, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please add under notable people .. 

message: In the section Notable People the Medal of Honor recipients includes 
Indian Wars: Charles H. Welch, I Co. 9th Cavalry (Buffalo soldiers) Ghost Dance War. 
The Charles H. Welch linked to was a British Theologian, 10 years old at the time of the Ghost Dance War.
I found no page for the Charles H. Welch of 9th Cav and therefore suggest simply removing the link. Overmaster Nut (talk) 15:02, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sam Sailor 00:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2022 

message: The usage of "Saint Paul" is under discussion, see Talk:Saint Paul (disambiguation)#Requested move 24 December 2023. Crouch, Swale (talk)  20:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Saint Paul"