Talk:Székelys

message: I realize this is an extremely hair-splitting comment, but on the map of ethnic Hungarian repartition in Hargita/Kovászna/Maros, there is a spillover into Bakó megye, specifically the Gyimes pass/upper Tatros valley. In my experience most people in Felsölok, Középlok (Hargita megye) and especially Bükk and Nagy-Gyimes (Bakó megye) consider themselves Csángó rather than Székely (although they gladly admit they are descended from Székely who crossed the pass several hundred years ago). Any advice on an elegant, unobtrusive way to dispel the idea that all the Hungarians on the map are Székely? Hubacelgrand 02:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A little addendum. The previous name of Judeţul Harghita was Csík megye. Judeţul Covasna originally was Háromszék megye. Judeţul Mureş previoulsy was Maros-Torda megye. Judeţul Bacau was outside the old Hungarian border but had Hungarian name: Bákó megye. Gyimesbükk presently has the name of Ghimeş-Făget (a translated name).
Other opinion:
Ioan Aurel Pop, The Ethno-Confessional Structure of Medieval Transylvania and Hungary. Cluj Napoca, 1994 (bulletin of the Center for Transilvanian Studies, vol.III, nr.4, July 1994)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.27.78 (talk) 18:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gyimesi Csángók 

message: Archivum Ottomanicum, Volume 20, Mouton, 2002, p. 66 - this is not a proper citation (the author is necessary) and also the year of the estimation Tarabostes (talk) 09:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to seek newer sources. Fakirbakir (talk) 14:57, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Endre Sik died in 1978, so I doubt that this is a recent estimation Tarabostes (talk) 21:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I realize now that there are more Endre Sik-s  Tarabostes (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a book mentioning 665,000 Székelys just in Romania  (so it does not count the Székelys in Hungary and other countreis). This book was published in January 2013. I hope that it is recent enough for you. ;-) KœrteFa {ταλκ} 22:45, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a really dubious source. The book is written by Lucy Mallows, who is a "photojournalist, editor & translator" (it does not sound very reliable - it looks like WP:SPS). When referring to the total Hngarian population, she works with the 2011 Romanian Census#20 October 2011 census data. 665,000 people (obviously not the result of a estimation, the way of obtaining the figure is extremely questionable) are said to be Szekelys, even if conforming to the 2011 Romanian Census only 611,391 Hungarians live in the counties of Harghita, Covasna and Mureş. She could also have counted Aranyos Seat (it is just a supposition), but anyway it is not a source to be considered Tarabostes (talk) 06:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is not self-published. It was published by the Bradt Travel Guides Ltd. I don't know where did she get the numbers from, but if you think that this book is not reliable, you can raise the issue on WP:RSN. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 16:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I found where the figure comes from. It represents the number of recorded Hungarians living in the counties of Harghita, Covasna and Mureş in 2002  Tarabostes (talk) 06:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As I wrote in the edit tags, date is never given for the "Total population" fields of ethnic groups and nations. For example, the total population data of Romanians is also based on 2002 data, still the infobox does not mention this. In order to remain consistent with other similar articles, we should not give date in that field of the infobox, either. On the other hand, the expanded information (population per country) should contain dates (if they are available). KœrteFa {ταλκ} 13:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Szeklers 

message: English scientific works used and still use SICULI as in this work:
http://www.magtudin.org/Barath_Tibor_The_Early_Hungarians%201.pdf
Eurocentral (talk) 06:52, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That is fine they use the Latin version of their name. Fakirbakir (talk) 19:39, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I think that the above self-published book cannot be used for WP purposes. Borsoka (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

text: A self-published book. Borsoka (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

text: A reprint of a book published in 1762. Borsoka (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

text: A book first published in the 1820s. Borsoka (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

text: A book first published in 1889. Borsoka (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

text: You are right. If there is one modern reliable source written in English which proves that "Siculi" is used nobody can hide it. Please, do not refrain from searching modern reliable English sources. Borsoka (talk) 20:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  English name of Siculi 

message: I think the truth is not given by the number of editors? But by the facts. Am I right? Hortobagy (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, provided that the facts are verifiable. I am afraid that your edits contradict to this requirement or at least none of them are based on reliable sources. Please read what WP:NOR means. Borsoka (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I may be bias but so as you. But when we're speaking about people then we should talk about their language too. Hortobagy (talk) 20:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

text: Please read what WP:NOR means. Borsoka (talk) 20:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hortobagy: you should prove your "facts" by reliable sources. If you claim, for example, that there is (was?) such thing as the "Székely language", then there must be serious academic sources which talk about it. In this case, it shouldn't be hard to cite them. I am quite open to any theory, if it is the mainstream approach of the scholars working on that field. But, please, don't waste our time with original research or fringe theories. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 20:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Now seriously, can you even imagine that they didn't had any own language? The reply is that YES, they did had it, and guess what : it was called Székely language. Hortobagy (talk) 20:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

text: Based on what reliable source do you suggest it? Borsoka (talk) 20:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on what reliable source do you suggest it they didn't? Hortobagy (talk) 20:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

text: No, it is not me who have to prove anything, because the statement that there is a separate "Székely language" was not made by me. All the same, I can refer to a reliable source (Engel, Pál (2001). The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895–1526. I.B. Tauris Publishers. ) which, on page 115, refers to the Székelys as "the largest Hungarian-speaking ethnic group in Romania". As you see, if a statement is based on reliable source there is no problem in substantiating it. Borsoka (talk) 20:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Majority of editors?

message: User Hortobagy has removed several sourced information from the article, mostly about the Magyar Autonomous Region. These includeded:
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
In 1952 the former province of Mureş (with the highest concentration of Székely population) was legally designated as the Magyar Autonomous Region. It was superseded in 1960 by the Mureş Magyar Autonomous Region, itself divided in 1968 into three nonautonomous districts, Harghita, Covasna and Mureş.http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/579333/Szekler
Autonomy:
There were Székely autonomous regions from 1952-1968. First the Magyar Autonomous Region was created in 1952, later (1960) renamed Mureş-Magyar Autonomous Region. Ever since the abolition of the Mureş-Magyar Autonomous Region by the Ceauşescu regime in 1968, some of the Székely have pressed for their autonomy to be restored. Several proposals have been discussed within the Székely Hungarian community and by the Romanian majority. One of the Székely autonomy initiatives is based on the model of the Spanish autonomous community of Catalonia. României îi este aplicabil modelul de autonomie al Cataloniei (The Catalan autonomy model is applicable in Romania), Gândul, 27 May 2006
 
A major peaceful demonstration was held in 2006 in favor of autonomy.http://www.hunsor.se/avitus/szekelymanifest060316.htm
Image:Szekely03 original map.png|Ethnic map of Harghita, Covasna, and Mureş based on the 1992 data, showing areas with Hungarian (Székely) majority
Image:Szekely03.png|Ethnic map of Harghita, Covasna, and Mureş based on the 2002 data, showing areas with Hungarian (Székely) majority
Image:Szekely04.png|Ethnic map of Harghita, Covasna, and Mureş based on the 2011 data, showing areas with Hungarian (Székely) majority
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Please, explain us in detail why did you remove most sourced information about the Autonomous Region? KœrteFa {ταλκ} 22:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can see he removed a lot of data, and most of it has references. Also I don`t understand why did he removed the images. In my opinion this should be reinserted. Adrian (talk) 22:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Adrian. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 17:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magyar Autonomous Region 

message: I've full protected this article for a week.  Any warring by anyone after that will result in an instant block, no waiting for violating 3RR. Dennis Brown - 2¢  - © - @ - Join WER 22:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit warring 

message: I added below 2 reliable sources,from the many available, to solve the citation needed tag added a few days ago. It is a totally uncontroversial edit. The main political structure of the Szeklers is called Szekler National Council (the name is used also on their official site and the redirect from Szeklers exists since 2003)
* Jean W Sedlar, East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000-1500, p. 406
* James Minahan, Encyclopedia of the stateless nations, p. 1812
--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Raysdiet (talk • contribs) 07:03, 20 May 2013
:Hi Raysdiet, you forgot to sign your comment. I agree with you that "Szekler National Council" is their offical name, since they even use this form on their website. The article can be updated with this name of their council after the protection is expired. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 17:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the history of conflict on this article, give it a few days and if no-one objects, notify me on my talk and I'll make the change. --RA (talk) 21:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am talking about the sources needed in line 2, I don't want to add anything about the council, I was just pointing out that the organization uses the denomination "Szeklers" Raysdiet (talk) 21:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Raysdiet, if you are talking about this  edit of yours, then this is also fine with me. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 21:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I am talking about that edit, with the only mention that the source must be be formatted. Raysdiet (talk) 05:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources for the denomination "Szeklers" (lead section) 

message: From different sources appears that Siculi were speaking a Turkish language. Even Byzantine sources called
Magyars and Siculi as Turks. Siculi are of Turkish-Avar origin. No connections with huns.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.20.90 (talk) 06:48, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Is is simple as that, if you have a reliable source we can discuss it how it can be introduced in the article. Greetings. Adrian (talk) 08:03, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

text: Those "different sources" are absolute rubbish, and typical Turk nationalism - like the claim that Sumerian is a Turkic language - just so much crap. 74.37.206.38 (talk) 05:15, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish origin of Siculi 

message: I don't see any relevance of mentioning Magyarization in the lead of *this* article, unless there are direct sources which connect the Székely people with Magyarization. Similarly, I do not see too much reference to Romanianization in the lead of the article about the Romanians... KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree with the above remark. There is no direct connection between the Székely people and Magyarization in the late 19th century. Borsoka (talk) 11:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magyarization 

message: I've removed the statement: "The Romanian government does not recognize the existence of a Székely Land." because I don't understand its meaning. How could Romania recognize a non-existing political entitiy? It is not like Kosovo or Transnistria, which are self-proclaimed entities 79.117.188.208 (talk) 14:47, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange affirmation 

message: Merge Székelys of Bukovina into Székelys? As per scope and shortness of both articles. --Zoupan 15:59, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I would prefer to preserve a separate article for the Székelys of Bukovina. Both articles could be expanded in the future. Should we merge the articles "Slovaks in Serbia" into "Slovaks" or "Serbs in Hungary" into "Serbs"? 16:23, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

text: I fail to see how Székelys—Székelys of Bukovina and Serbs—Serbs in Hungary are relatable; the Székelys is a Hungarian ethnographic group of Hungary and Romania, while Serbs in Hungary is a community of Serbs (an ethnic-national minority). As per scope, Székelys of Bukovina would be a section at Székelys.--Zoupan 16:42, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Székelys of Bukovina was a group of Székelys who settled in Bukovina and formed an ethnic-national minority there. Borsoka (talk) 03:29, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: As per WP:SCOPE, as there already are articles on Hungarians in Romania, Hungarians in Ukraine and Székelys, I suggested that instead of the further split of Székelys into "of Transylvania" and "of Bukovina" to have one Székelys article (reasons for splitting are size and content relevance).--Zoupan 04:21, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I still propose that the present article "Székelys of Bukovina" should be preserved. Ukraine and Romania did not exist when a Székely groups settled in Bukovina in the Habsburg Empire at the end of the 18th century. This group has a distinctive history: they were moved to Bukovina from the Székely Land, from Bukovina to Vajdaság (now in Serbia) and finally they moved to Hungary. Borsoka (talk) 04:33, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think a merge is a good idea in this case. Geographically speaking, Bukovinan Szekelys still live in Vojvodina and Tolna and Baranya counties. The history of Bukovinan Szeklers separated from Szeklers' history hundreds years ago. IMHO. Fakirbakir (talk) 09:33, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Székelys of Bukovina 

message: Quotation from article: "Székelys were part of the Avar confederation during the so-called Dark Ages, but this does not mean that they were ethnically Avar."
Avars were not a homogeneous people, just like any other steppe peoples. There was a leading tribe, after which all the others of their tribes got their names. Therefore it is obvious that there is no such thing like "ethnically Avar". Other tribes as well were not ethnically Avars within the Avar confederation. 178.48.177.1 (talk) 14:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Avars have been identified as Turkic people. Their confederation is a political construct, not an ethnicity.50.111.19.34 (talk) 03:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnically Avar 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This one appeared only very late after 1990 http://www.covasna.info.ro/szekely-zaszlo-a-az-onazonossag-es-az-autonomiaharc-jelkepe/ Skyhighway (talk) 12:30, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag of Szeklers

message: Is there a reference for this?  I've never seen this spelling, nor does Google seem aware of it. -- Elphion (talk) 22:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The spelling "Sekhey" 

message: there are ongoing debates on the "Szekely language" in multiple Talk pages (here, here and here). Please do not expand them to new articles. Please also remember that the possible Turkic origin of the Székelys is already mentioned in the article, so no need to repeat it and it cannot be presented as a fact as per WP:NPOV. Please also remember WP:3RR. Borsoka (talk) 17:10, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: https://www.romanianhistoryandculture.com/transylvanianszekely.htm read it, it will help you Magysze (talk) 17:18, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Read reliable sources. They will help you to understand that the Székelys' origin is unclear. Borsoka (talk) 17:27, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I just gave you the sources. A lot of them, good luck reading them. https://www.romanianhistoryandculture.com/transylvanianszekely.htm Inside the text you can find them. Magysze (talk) 17:28, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warring mentality 

message: New article to be expanded, your help is needed. Controversy on Szekely language Magysze (talk) 18:06, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Controversy on Szekely language]]

message: US comedian Louis CK's abbreviation-style last name is taken from Székelys I believe. "CK" is the closest to correct pronunciation in English.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.159.144.133 (talk) 00:11, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivial but interesting 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:38, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Why is there an s on this? Szekely is a group, not a barrel of nails. Athanasius V (talk) 11:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plural? 

message: There are many vandalism by Romanian anonym IPs. Szekelys are a Hungarian subroup in Transylvania. Transylvania was Hungarian land 1000 years long, since 1920 part of Romania. Thus, many Romanians did not like local Hungarians in Transylvania. Please set the page to be protected to avoid future vandalism. Some examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Székelys&diff=1099895094&oldid=1096871680
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Székelys&diff=1092462063&oldid=1092461817
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Székelys&diff=864925568&oldid=864925450
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Székelys&diff=996329238&oldid=989851095
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Székelys&diff=864925450&oldid=864925007
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Székelys&diff=1092461817&oldid=1089723935
Another Szekely related site:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Székely_Land&diff=1092510786&oldid=1092480254
Explanation of the vandalism from an administrator from the Romanian wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:OrionNimrod&diff=1092885436&oldid=1092885021 OrionNimrod (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 24 July 2022 

message: I deleted a long paragraph from the "Origins" section, which paraphrases a scholar working in the 1920s who connected the Szekely to a group called the Gepids. The paragraph didn't cite sources. It might be worth recovering the paragraph, re-writing it with a more neutral tone, and finding sources for the material, but at the moment the paragraph doesn't seem relevant or valuable enough to understanding the topic as it stands.
Transfigurationblues (talk) 15:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins Gepids Paragraph