Talk:Karelians

message: The statement that "Russian Karelians" and "Finnish Karelians" are not of the same ethnic group is completely incorrect and insubstantial. Historical evidence suggests that after being divided in 1323, Karelians have kept their identity and ties until first half of 20th century on both sides of the border. Ethnographic studies performed by Finnish, Russian and European 19th century ethnographers (such as Lönnröt, Sjögren, Castren, Keoppen and others) indicate that there were no such things as "Finnish Karelians" or "Russian Karelians" from the ethnic point of view as late as the end of 19th century. What is often mistaken, by modern Finnish ethnographers, for ethnic identity is is a mere citizenship of ethnic Karelians on both sides of the border, where some are of Finnish citizenship while others are of Russian citizenship. There is one more historical aspect that has to be mentioned here which caused this artificial "ethnic" division - Karelian Independence movement in White and Olonets Karelia in 1918-1922 and the Finland-Soviet Wars that took place in the first half of the 20th century. The rhetoric that was used by some of the notable Finnish politicians (K.G.E. Mannerheim in particular) on the subject of Karelia and Karelians in the first half of the 20th century were completely abandoned and abolished in Finland after the Peace Treaty of Paris, 1947. Any mention of ethnic ties between the population of Finland and Karelians, that still lived in the Soviet Union was prohibited. The theory that there are "Finnish Karelians" and "Russian Karelians", which are ethnically different was created, however insubstantial it was. Most of the ethnic Karelians were assimilated into Finns, merely for political reasons. Finnish political leaders simply did not want to mess with the Soviet Union over the subject of Karelia any more. Hence all this nonsense about different ethnic groups of Karelians. Karjala88 (talk) 08:37, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose a different language (Karelian dialect of Finnish vs. Karelian) and religion (Lutheranism vs. Russian Orthodoxy) are inconsequential as far as ethnicities are conserned in your book? Sure, all Karelians have the same origin, but a whole lot of water has passed under the keel since those ancient times. Also, I must protest agaist the  "Flag of Karelians" in the article. This flag was the flag, designed by the national romantic artist Akseli Gallen-Kallela, for the so-called Uhtua republic, more generally for East Karelia. It was used during the Finnish occupation of East Karelia by the occupants and that's about it. 84.251.161.164 (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

text: Yes. I hope that those favoring the current version of the article would write their reasons here. The current version claims that these are the same people, which is 1) not true, 2) anti-consensus (also by looking at this talk page), 3) not backed by any sources either. By the way, one has to remember also the radical population changes which occurred in the 1600s. The article in the Finnish Wikipedia is in an OK shape. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Different groups of Karelians

message: I do not bother to read trough the whole article and the whole discussion just now but the following passage is clearly incorrect and erraneous:
 "in Finland, Finnish Karelians traditionally live in the regions of Savonia and Northern and Southern Karelia. As Finland had to cede parts of Karelia to the Soviet Union in World War II, evacuated Finnish Karelians settled also elsewhere in Finland. They traditionally speak Karelian. However owing to Karelian not being recognized as its own language by the Finnish government until recently, most Karelians had no choice but to learn Finnish and now speak mostly Finnish Karelian dialect. "
How the things are in reality is explained here (in Finnish) by a reliable, neutral source: . That is: 1) people living in Savonia are not regarded as Karelian neither by themselves or anyone else. They are Savonians. And they also do not speak karelian language but instead the Savonian dialects of Finnish. 2) Most people living in the regions of South Karelia region in Finland and the Northern  Karelia region in Finland do not and have not spoken karelian language in the 19th an d 20the century. Instead, they have, at least in 19th and 20th century spoken the Eastern Finnish dialects, and of those the southeast Finnish dialects in southern Carelia and Savonian dialects in Northern Karelia. In 16th century or so, Karelian langue was still spoken in nothern Karelia but then there was some migration in and out and Savonian dialects spread there. In the areas ceded to Soviet union after World war two, the southeastern dialects of Finnish language  were spoken in the western parts of the area and Karelian language was spoken in the eastern part of the area. Also, the southeastern dialects of Finnish were spoken in Ingria, where also ingrian language and votic language were spoken. And so, those from the western parts of the ceded areas have been speaking the southeastern dialects of Fiinish language all the time at least trough the 19th and 20th centuries as well before the WW2 and after that. Those from the eastern parts spoke karelian language. I myself am not speaker of either Karelian language or the southeastern dialects of finnish, so I do not have any personal interest on this, and as far as I understand, in Finland there is no controversy about the facts told in the source I gave. The position of Karelian language in Finland has been recognized only recently, as was told in the text, but  not all the inhabitants of the ceded areas spoke karelian languge, but, instead, in the western part of the area southeastern dialects of Finnish were spoken.  And all this, as far as I can understand, is not matter of opiniin but, on the contrary, widely held and undisputed facts.--Urjanhai (talk) 10:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: just now I did not have time to rewrite the introduction. In the source I gave above there is all information that is needed. --Urjanhai (talk) 11:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

text: I tried to fix some of the issues brought up by Urjanhai above in the first section of the article. However, it would be good if somebody with better sources could check it and possibly phrase it better. The fact is that this article has MASSIVE issues. There is even a picture of a woman from Jääski on there; Jääski which was populated by Finnish Karelians, not the Karelians this article is about. It would be better if English Wikipedia did the same thing as Finnish and Russian Wikipedias, and had two different articles, one for these Karelian-speaking Karelians this article is about, and another one for Finnish Karelians. fi:Karjalaiset (kansa) and ru:Карелы are equivalents to this article, whereas fi:Karjalaiset and ru:Карелы (субэтнос финнов) are about Finnish Karelians. --Vilutar (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Errors