Talk:Early National Socialism/draft

message: ===Hitler & Mussolini===
*Hitler:
**Did not create the party. The DAP was there before Hitler. Jung had Hitler use the name of the Austrian party which borrowed it from the CZECH party.
**Did not create the concept.  Jung brought the 25-point program to Munich.
**Did not create the ideology.  Jung points to two other people. Dr. Fedor was already there when Hitler came around.
*Mussolini
**Did not create the term Fascism: "It was first used in this sense in the 1890's by groups of revolutionary socialists in Sicily". Noel O'Sullivan, Fascism, pg 207.
**Did not create the original party: "The USM, the Parma Labor Chamber, and a number of revolutionary syndicalists now left the USI and at the beginning of October 1914 founded the Fascio rvoluzionario d'azione internazionalista. At that period, Mussolini joined the movement, deciding to abandon the neutralist position of the PSI." Zeev Sternhell, The Birth of Fascist Ideology, pg 140.
**Did not create the ideology: It is basically Georges Sorel who advanced the thought of Proudhon The Birth of Fascist Ideology by Zeev Sternhell.
===France being the birth place of National Socialism===
**"As nature abhors a vacuum, history abhors changes without origins, whether immediate or remote.  Fascism did not spring fully grown from the chin of Mussolini.  It had historic origins, not so much in Italy itself as in France, which since the French Revolution has furnished many revolutionary patterns to Latin Europe". — Liberalism and the Challenge of Fascism, J. Salwyn Schapiro, pg 322.
**"Moreover, France was the birthplace of Sorelian revolutionary revisionism, the second elementary component of (Italian)fascism."  —Birth of Fascist Ideology, Zeev Sternhell, pg 4.
**"Marinetti and D'Annunzio often wrote in French and participated in the intellectual life of the French Capitol".  —Birth of Fascist Ideology, pg 29
**"The fascist synthesis was already clearly expressed around 1910-1912 in publications like La Lupa in Italy and the Cahiers du Cercle Proudhon in France.  After the first manifestations of the Fascist synthesis in France, the war was needed ...(to transform it into political force)".—Birth of Fascist Ideology, pg 31.
**"The announcement of the coming together of the syndicalists and nationalists in France aroused enthusiasm in Italian revolutionary-syndicalist circles; Lanzillo, in his apologetic biography of Sorel, Orano in La lupa, and the review Pagine libere, which in its December 1910 issue spoke of the "Sorel phenomenon", showed appreciation of the significance of the socialist-nationalist synthesis coming into being in France."—Birth of Fascist Ideology, Zeev Sternhell, pg 96.
**Doctrine of Fascism points to all French men as the sources and inspiration of Italian Fascism. — Giovanni Gentile and Mussolini
===Nazism as counterpart to French Revolution===
**"Hitler and Mussolini are despots belonging to the age of democracy....Dictatorship of the nazi type is a late cancer which has blossomed on the soil of the French Revolution."— Jules Romains, Les Hommes de bonne volonté.
**The Nazi Revolution was "the exact counterpart of the French Revolution".—Adolf Hitler as quoted by Herman Rauschning
**"The emergence of nationalist doctrine in Europe, for example, occurred at a time when western industrialization was still in its infancy.  It occured, more precisely, in response to the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars, and not in response to industrialization."—Fascism, Noel O'Sullivan, J.M.Dent&Sons, London, l983, pg 21.
**"It lies, more especially, in the doctrine of popular sovereignty enunciated by the French revolutionaries in 1789, in the declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen.  It was with this Declaration that the new activist style first acquired practical significance in the European World.  "The principle of sovereignty", the Declaration announced, "resides essentially in the Nation; no body of men, no individual, can exercise authority that does not emmanate from it."—O'Sullivan, Fascism, pg 45-46.
**""By sending us as deputies here," Danton announced to the Convention of 1792, "the French nation has brought into being a grand committee for the general insurrection of the peoples."  It is this vision - a vision of "the general insurrection of the peoples" - which continues to inspire the activist style of politics.  A century and a half later, a euphoric French fascist, Robert Brasillach, contemplated the spread of the activist flame first lit in 1789 and indicated how little it had to do with either individual liberty or international peace."—O'Sullivan, Fascism, pg 47.
**"Robespierre rapidly concluded that liberty is not only compatible with terror, but actually requires it. (Robespierre:)""The mainspring of popular government in time of revolution is both virtue and terror: virtue, without which terror is evil; terror, without which virtue is helpless."
***"Rousseau's dream of liberating the suffering masses by rallying them to the activist cause, they, had rapidly turned out to be a bloody and ruthless business than its progenitor had foreseen."—O'Sullivan, Fascism, pg 67.
**"The explanation lies in the tradition of revolution as a method of progress, established by the French Revolution.—Prof. Schapiro, Liberalism and the Challenge of Fascism, pg 241.
===Dictionary of the History of Ideas (1973)===
*Under the "Nationalism" article by Hans Kohn
**"Thus communism has adapted itself to nationalism".
**"Nationalism and socialism are no longer, as they were around 1900, in opposition to each other."
**Jean Jacques Rousseau is "father" of political nationalism.
**Johann Gottfried von Herder was the father of romantic nationalism.
*Under the "Totalitarian" article by Karl Dietrick Bracher
**Though the beginning of the term and concept is rare and vague, Robespierre coined the term "total war".  Mussolini futhered the term in usage.
(They both point to France as the beginnings.)
Not as the beginnings of Nazism. Again, you take something which is true such as Rousseau's influence on nationalism and read into it something that is not true - that Rousseau is the "father" of Nazism. Nor is Bracher saying that Robespierre is the "father" of fascism. Why not try to read what is actually there instead of contort it to fit your own assumptions?AndyL 15:44, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Researcher Notes

message: *Under the "Nationalism" article by Hans Kohn
**"Thus communism has adapted itself to nationalism".
**"Nationalism and socialism are no longer, as they were around 1900, in opposition to each other."
**Jean Jacques Rousseau is "father" of political nationalism.
**Johann Gottfried von Herder was the father of romantic nationalism.
*Under the "Totalitarian" article by Karl Dietrick Bracher
**Though the beginning of the term and concept is rare and vague, Robespierre coined the term "total war".  Mussolini futhered the term in usage.
(They both point to France as the beginnings.)
Not as the beginnings of Nazism. Again, you take something which is true such as Rousseau's influence on nationalism and read into it something that is not true - that Rousseau is the "father" of Nazism. Nor is Bracher saying that Robespierre is the "father" of fascism. Why not try to read what is actually there instead of contort it to fit your own assumptions?AndyL 15:44, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Dictionary of the History of Ideas (1973)

message: WHEELER, your theories that National Socialism orginated with the French Revolution are not considered "mainstream" in academic circles and shouldn't be in the article. If this is yet another attempt by you to insert your POV that Nazism is a left-wing ideology that has nothing to do with reaction and is somehow the product of Enlightenment and liberal thinking then I really think you should write an argumentative essay and put it someplace other than Wikipedia. In fact, I would say if Nazism has something in common with any 19th century movement it would be Romanticism and Neo-classicism (the Nazis sure loved Plato after all and practically worshipped ancient Greece). AndyL 06:21, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: We have an article about Marxism and another about Russian communism.  They are two seperate articles.  Why are the rules different for national socialism????
WHEELER go to an encyclopedia, look up "national socialism" and see what it says and then you'll understand why we don't have separate articles on National Socialism and Nazism. Then go ask the editors of those encyclopedias why they don't have separate araticles on the "two subjects". AndyL 14:26, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: Andy what is that "Early National Socialism"  Article.  Shouldn't it be Austrian National Socialism.  Can we have some coordination here?  What are you doing with that Early National Socialism Site?  You disbar me from using National Socialism and you start a site already with Early National Socialism with my work in it.  I don't think you are playing fair at all.  That site needs to be renamed.WHEELER 21:56, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: ""Thus extreme nationalism, for example, is a characteristic of reactionary groups like the Action Francaise, which was in no sense a fascist movement. He quotes H. W. Schneider, Making the Fascist State ch 1. pp 13-14.
WHEELER, all that quotation says is that the Action Francaise is not fascist according to the author. He's *not* saying that extreme nationalism is not a characteristic of fascism. You're reading something in that he simply didn't say which does not say much for your skills in reading or compiling information. You start with a fixed notion and try to force things to fit your preconceptions. This means that, quite often, you take something a scholar has written and read it as meaning something completely different. That's a problem with your habit of puttling quotes out of context without understanding the broader point being made. 
As for the stuff of the non-draft page, that's about the only part of your article which is not POV. Nothing else I can see in your article belongs in wikipedia. If you want me to move it to Austrian National Socialism I'll do that. I made that suggestion originally with your article and you rejected it, remember?AndyL 07:17, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: #Andy will not let this stand alone as "National Socialism".  It existed before Hilter and Mussolini.
#It is an Ideology just like Marxism is.
#Right now, Austrian National socialism is linked from the Nazism page but it should be started from the "National Socialist" page.
#Andy never knew any of this information.  Yet, he is an "authority" somehow.
#Andy stole my work.  He first deleted the whole page. Then He took work of mine placed in the Nazism section and then put National Socialism as a redirect.  Then he renamed the article "Early National Socialism/draft" while he went ahead and did made an article all by himself called "Early National Socialism".
#Andy's comment that National Socialism is not in any encyclopedia, is reason for not having an article.  Well most of the sites I have started never had an encyclopedia entry either.  His argument doesn't hold water.
#What doesn't agree with Andy, he deletes. He doesn't check my references. He deleted my work and then moved 3/4 of it into his Nazism article.
#National Socialism is a *GENUS* and *Nazism* and *Fascism* are *SPECIES* of national Socialism.
#What is National Socialism should be asked by the article "National Socialism".WHEELER 14:05, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Reasons

message: Christ, I just began reading the article more closely in order to edit it. It's hilarious - someone should keep this under "Deleted Nonsense." -- Simonides 22:38, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody is vandalizing it; I haven't even started editing it. This whole article has no credible basis in fact, history or theory, and you haven't responded to any of my charges above. I will be requesting a vote for deletion; Wikipedia is not a place for POV theories - you can use your personal non-Wiki homepage for that. -- Simonides 22:52, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Zeev Steernhell is quite a proficient historian.  I think he out does you. and besides you are not following procedures at all.  It is listed at Wikipedia:Peer Review and at Wikipedia:Requests for comment.  I have followed procedure.  You have not.WHEELER 23:15, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hilarious 

message: "Communist ideology is widely studied in order to obtain insights into communist behavior; it is generally considered essential to our understanding of communism as a general system of social and political organization.  There is no reason why an identical method should not be applied to FASCISM." Zeev Sternhell.
Communism just like fascism does not follow ideology when practicality comes in.  "...and yet no one could pretend to discern in the October Revolution or in the seizure of power by other communist parties a meticulous putting into practice of the ideas propounded by Marx or Lenin or any of their disciples  Zeev Sternhell
Consistency is the criterion of Truth.  Apply the same rules of communism to fascism.  This is accademic professionalism.WHEELER 00:10, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: None of those quotes can be construed to mean that Communism led to, is responsible for, or is identical with Fascism. -- Simonides 00:44, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: What is the point you're trying to make? That Hitler did not follow Nazi ideology and was thus not a Nazi? -- Simonides 00:44, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, what I am saying is that Stalin did not follow the ideology of Marx, that doesn't stop people from calling him a marxist at the head of a marxist state.  Both Stalin, Mussolini and Hitler did things for practicality reasons against their ideology.  Dictators are not tied down to an ideology.  It is what is used to gain adherents.  Hitler did many things that were for practical reasons, not for ideology.  He was above all this.  That is what makes this confusing but Hitler did not stop becoming a National Socialist.WHEELER 13:59, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Communist Ideology

message: ::::And by the way since you want to declare a pedigree just because your relatives suffered under the Holocaust.
:::::The Nazis also committeed atrocities on the island of Crete.  My uncle, Sirodakis, was a great underground fighter.  It was my island that lead a ferocious resistance to the Nazis.  It was my co-religionists, Catholic priests that went to the camps as well.  And it was Jewish communists that destroyed the Orthodox Church in Russia.  Many a Christian died in Jewish concentration camps in Russian before the Nazis ever killed a single Jew.  So don't cry buster and don't wave your victimhood in my face.WHEELER 15:43, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You really have a lot of nerve making assumptions like that but as making false assumptions seems to be your motif I shouldn't be surprised. I'm NOT an American. first of all. Secondly, my family has lived under fascism, Nazism, Communism  and social democracy. Perhaps, as a result, I'm better able to tell the difference between these systems than you are.  
Where in that paragraph do said either that I am Jewish or that my relatives suffered in the Holocaust?AndyL 16:21, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: I think this particular thread should be dropped. Sam [Spade] 16:32, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Yes. I would ad that it was maybe the 12th such violation on this page, and the first by him. I also think it was based on miscommunication/misunderstanding. Sam [Spade] 16:51, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: I was refering to wikiquette/wikipedia:civility violations. Calls for banning are a personal attack, BTW. Sam [Spade] 17:39, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Anything you disagree with Slrubenstein you want to label Anti-semetic.  Andy said many times that his relatives suffered in the holocaust and that makes him an authority.  No it doesn't.WHEELER 17:57, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: "Many times"? Please cite examples. Please give me exact quotations. You insist on backing everything up so back up this claim. AndyL 22:45, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: It is alright to be anti-Catholic and smear others but the communist camps in Siberia started by the Bolshevists is an Historical fact.WHEELER 17:59, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: Your right, I appologize. Its a Wikipedia:Civility violation. Sam [Spade] 18:11, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text: as I said elsewhere, if you feel you have a legitimate case I suggest you initiate the appropriate process. Mentioning it here serves little purpose IMO. Sam [Spade] 22:48, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: personal pedigree