Talk:Heber C. Kimball

message: LDS oriented articles often ignore a person's career or life work in favor of their religious contributions.  Many of our early GA's were accomplished in one or more fields and made a living for their families while serving in the church.  Should we balance the articles by giving more prominence to the secular work of these men?  
A recent edit removed HCKimball from the potters category (one of several professsions he had during his life).  I restored him for now.  Kimball spoke often about the allegory of the potter and the clay - he knew what he was talking about.  Excerpt below:
:"How many shapes do you suppose you are put into before you become Saints, or before you become perfect and sanctified to enter into the celestial glory of God? You have got to be like that clay in the hands of the potter. Do you not know that the Lord directed the Prophet anciently, to go down to the potter's house to see a miracle on the wheel? Suppose the Potter takes a lump of clay, and putting it on the wheel, goes to work to form it into a vessel, and works it out this way, and that way, and the other way, but the clay is refractory and snappish; he still trys [tries] it, but it will break, and snap, and snarl, and thus the potter will work it and work it until he is satisfied he cannot bring it into the shape he wants, and it mars upon the wheel; he takes his tool, then, and cuts it off the wheel, and throws it into the mill to be ground over again, until it becomes passive, (don't you think you will go to hell if you are not passive?) and after it is ground there so many days, and it becomes passive, he takes the same lump, and makes of it a vessel unto honor. Now do you see into that, brethren? I know the potters can. I tell you, brethren, if you are not passive you will have to go into that mill, and perhaps have to grind there one thousand years, and then the Gospel will be offered to you again, and then if you will not accept of it, and become passive, you will have to go into the mill again, and thus you will have offers of salvation from time to time, until all the human family, will, except the sons of perdition, are redeemed. The spirits of men will have the Gospel as we do, and they are to be judged according to men in the flesh. Let us be passive, and take a course that will be perfectly submissive.(Journal of Discourses 1: beginning page 160)
WBardwin 05:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  HCK as a potter 

message: This article has his apostleship ending when he joined the 1st Presidency. This is inconsistant with some other Mormon apostleships are dated. See Gordon B. Hinckley for example. Marion G. Romney and Henry D. Moyle are counter examples. Until there is a box for 1st presidency counselors, I think the apostleship dates ought to include such service.
204.128.230.1 15:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates of Apostleship 

message: I entered a sentence that I thought was interesting and valuable to Wikipedia readers, although not directly relating to Heber C. Kimball.  What it was directly relating to was the statement now in the Article that the LDS people made no move to build, or help build, a Mason lodge.  This may be a false statement and no reference is given, as required by Wikipedia standards.  The sentence should be researched and either documented or changed, in my humble opinion.
Here is the sentence which I thought was 'value added' to the Article, but was removed since Heber C. Kimball was not centrally involved.  He was also not centrally involved in whether the LDS Church and/or people did, or did not, help with the Mason building followed by their temple now a Salt Lake City historic landmark and functioning headquarters for Utah Masons, and their temple.
BEFORE: 
:He remained active in Freemasonry throughout his stay in Nauvoo, but no serious effort was made in Utah by the Mormons to establish a lodge there.
AFTER:
:He remained active in Freemasonry throughout his stay in Nauvoo, but no serious effort was made in Utah by the Mormons to establish a lodge at that time. Completed in 1927, the Salt Lake Masonic Temple and headquarters is now Salt Lake City's best example of Egyptian Revival architecture.
It is easily documented that the Mormon pioneers helped build the Catholic cathedral in Salt Lake City, on South Temple Street.  Why would they not also help the Masons?  Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 16:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and that Masonry info could go on another article, like Mormonism and Freemasonry; however as Heber C. Kimball had absolutely nothing to do with the 1927 building, it's out of place and completely tangential on this article. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 19:00, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll wait for others to respond and wait for someone to document the end of the BEFORE sentence before I consider changing it.  Thanks, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 05:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry but I have to agree with 208.81.184.4.  If Heber C. Kimball had absolutely nothing to do with the 1927 building, why should be it included on a page about him?  It would be no different then putting a comment on the construction of a 1927 masonic building in Washington, DC on Washington's (the person) page.  He was an active mason, but what has that building got to do with him?--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 14:03, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: After doing some reading on the topic of Freemasonry in Utah, and the institutionalized animosity it had towards Mormonism until 1984, I find any mention of the 1927 building in this article completely inappropriate. I'm not even sure that I would find it appropriate on Mormonism and Freemasonry, other than to mention how Mormons were barred until 1984, even though that building is just a little over a mile east of Temple Square. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did the Utah Mormons not help the Masons ? 

message: This article is woeful. Despite this guy having been one of the original twelve apostles, there is very little mention of what his achievements in this capacity were, let alone any critical assessment of his importance or legacy. Instead, it is full of patently unencyclopedic material, such as inane statements about his parents' "virtuous character" (I kid you not!), randomly selected details about assorted relatives (including babies that only survived for months), and general family-oriented stuff, all padded out with verbiose quotes purporting to be from some unspecified autobiography. I will go through the article now to remove the most egregiously offending silly material. However, even after that, the article will still remain in a pitiful state. Almost all the material appears to be WP:OR. Somebody with some expertise on this topic should go through this article and provide citations for what they think should be kept and flesh it out with properly sourced information of an acceptable standard. 92.25.21.108 (talk) 00:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Woefoul state of this article - way forward 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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