Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War/Archive 8

message: *1. Can we delete this from first phase : "Right after the UN partition plan was approved, joint Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese and Iraqi troops invaded Palestine, which Israel, the United States, the Soviet Union, and UN Secretary-General Trygve Lie called illegal aggression" ? Alithien 07:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since #1 is a minor change that was clearly needed, all we really need to discuss is #2.  I strongly agree with replacing the Background section as you recommend.  The removed material can be moved to a new article, Jewish-Arab conflict in Palestine, devoted to the period from the late 19th century to the end of the Mandate.  Much of the material in History of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be moved there also. Brian Tvedt 14:29, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've no objection in principle provided that good sources are used and cited. --Ian Pitchford 14:50, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I generally agree with Brian and Alithien about moving the background section to other article but we need to first agree on a short and concise (few words) about th conditions prior to May 15 invasion. Maybe we can start from Nov 29, 1947 and the bus bombings on Nov 30 - that seem to be the start of the actual 1948 war. Zeq 05:20, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would start a little earlier - we should at least include UNSCOP, the debate over the Partition plan, and the UN vote, as these set the stage for the confrontation. Brian Tvedt 01:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  Sorry for slow response, I recently limited my edit time on Wikipedia. I think your introduction is good, but I do not undestand why you want change #1. Is information in the sentence mentioned some place else?-- Heptor  talk 13:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of asked deletes/modifications/adds

message: Kriegman and Heptor have added "Right after the UN partition plan was approved, joint Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese and Iraqi troops invaded Palestine, which Israel, the United States, the Soviet Union, and UN Secretary-General Trygve Lie called illegal aggression."  The whole of this is factually inaccurate and should not appear in the article. --Ian Pitchford 16:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BG did not at all hesitate to declare independence but did so to exactly coincide with the end of the Mandate. Furthermore, Jordan did not invade two days before.  In fact, Jordan did not attack the Jewish part of the UN partition at all in the entire war. --Zero 03:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The Arab Legion was under explicit instructions to not attack the Jewish part of the UN partition, and they didn't.  Egypt did, Syria did, Lebanon did, but Jordan did not.  That's a fact.  --Zero 03:21, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The maps linked at the end of the article indicate that Arab forces did not invade the territory allocated to the Jews by the UN ... this contradicts what is written above. Which is correct? --Russell E 20:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First phase: November 29, 1947 - April 1, 1948 

message: :::What sources are your referring to? The problem we've had all along is that there are no sources for the disputed claims. As for the specific deletions and additions/fixes here they are:
::::#Line 39 - Deleted "POV section" added in confusion over role of the Arab Legion.
::::#Line 44 - fixed wikilink; restored reference to Shertok; restored material on Jewish Brigade and fixed reference to Beckman.
::::#Line 61 - Linked to main article on Amin al-Husayni; deleted 14 (yes 14!) web links from one sentence, none of which relate to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
::::#Line 75 - Deleted link to WorldNet Daily article on Yasser Arafat a poor source, which cites another poor source, Joan Peters' From Time Immemorial for a quotation that does not relate to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; Inserted Benny Morris' report on military assessments from his highly respected 2003 work.
::::#Line 87 Expanded and re-wrote the section, keeping the original reference and providing five more good sources, three of which are to contemporary reports in The Times, The New York Times and The Palestine Post.
::::#Line 120 - Clarified the fact that the quotation inserted by Leifern is from Lie's 1954 memoirs and not a statement made at the time dealt with by this section "First phase: November 29, 1947 - April 1, 1948". Deleted material about the mufti's activities in World War II not relevant to this section and unsourced claim that "widespread belief that the Israelis were facing a genocidal enemy". 
::::#Line 318 - Restored 2 footnotes citing published works on the war.
::::#Line 327 - Restored 9 footnotes citing published works on the war and contemporary newspaper accounts; deleted two references to books that, once again, are about the mufti in World War II and not the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; deleted one reference to quotation that is probably fabricated and does not appear in any scholarly work or contemporary source.
::::#Line 345 - restored details of four books to the "references" section.
:::Comments? --Ian Pitchford 10:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Heptor gave you an answer already Zeq 10:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No Zeq. As usual there's no response about the relevance of this material to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; see Zero's comments above my response below. --Ian Pitchford 10:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: That's not quite right. I think it's fine to include the claim that that the Jews in Palestine/Israeli's feared they were facing a genocidal enemy if there is a reputable source supporting that claim. You say that "any quote attributed to an Arab leader that talks of extermination is either deleted or discredited", but in fact we've already included in the article the statement "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." attributed to Azzam Pasha, even though a good source has not been found, because there are at least indications that it's probably (partially) accurate. I don't know of any "facts" by Peters that are not disputed (e.g., see Porath's NYRB review online), but in any case she is not cited in the article; the link to the newspaper article in which she is cited is about Arafat, and the quotation in question is about World War II; not the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. --Ian Pitchford 12:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: According to WP policy, personal attacks are grounds for banning; please do not engage in them.  And please follow the WP guidelines and assume good faith.  Also, the relevant policy for review is Wikipedia:Protection policy.  Note especially If a page is protected because of an edit war, please do not ask for it to be protected in some other version than it currently is. A protection is not an endorsement of the current version.. -- Jibal 07:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Response

message: *We know what you have tried to do. You were caught. Now, revert yourself and Ian and  let the discussion go on from where it was before you abused your admin powers a quick look at Ian edit history shows he was not willing to accept any source that does not meet his POV. This is something for ArbCom to deal with not for you to freeze the article in the vesrion that Ian wanted it (in the middle of discussion) No point in further discussion if you just abuse your power. 
I suggest you review wp:point if still do not understand what you have done. Zeq 19:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to WP policy, personal attacks are grounds for banning; please do not engage in them.  And please follow the WP guidelines and assume good faith.  Also, the relevant policy for review is Wikipedia:Protection policy.  Note especially If a page is protected because of an edit war, please do not ask for it to be protected in some other version than it currently is. A protection is not an endorsement of the current version.. -- Jibal 07:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Anon editor 

message: Exactly, what does any of this material summarised by Heptor have to do with the 1948 Arab-Israeli War? --Ian Pitchford 10:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Response

message: Thank you all for response to my attempt to summarize the available sources for the quotation. I am sorry it took me some time to respond - as I told earlier I chose to limit the time I spend to edit Wikipedia. This sumamrization is of course not complete, so if someone has a valid comments, I will change it. Zero already pointed out the reference of Sachar was in fact to quotation of the Arab League Secretary-General, Abdul Razek Azzam Pasha, who was claimed to have said, "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.". One can perhaps see why I mixed those to up.
* To Sean: indeed, I chose to include all sources I came over, not just those I consider reliable. Your gallant attempt to bring around a real discussion is noted. So is (pardon the gagging) the tremendous effect it had on Ian and Palmiro.
* I maintain that it is completely resonable to include "circumstantial evidences". Naturally they do not stand on their own, but they support the main sources for the quotation. If I were to defend that Albert Einstein really said "Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing [...]", I would do good to show that 1. He was a scientist 2. He indeed believed that quantum mechanics did not provide a basic explanation of the Universe, and that there had to be a more basic theory.
* Zero, if you look at the article about Holocaust_denial. It contains links to sites claiming Holocaust never happened, and links to sites explaining why it did anyway. This is perfectly legitimate material for Wikipedia.
* Ian, there is a consensus here that this quote has to moved to a diffent arcile if approved by Arbitration Committee (either as a fact or as a claim). I believe I made my position clear by supporting Greffe's refactoring.
-- Heptor  talk 17:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response to criticism