Talk:Bart Sibrel

message: It is clear after reviewing the discussion and debate that this article is not well settled in any fashion. In addition, there is a great deal of unregistered anonymous edits that are adding items with either a POV or a clear agenda due to either agreement or dislike of his views. I wish to take part in the discussion from an NPOV and work to make this a better article. The subject is noteworthy in that he is in the media on a consistent basis regarding his theories. However, iw ould like to discuss the article prior to further editing an any major way.  While we should avoid publicizing his theories as fact, a review of his work is necessary on in light of other articles such as Apollo Moon Landing Hoax Theories.  I would submit to editors that the following steps should be taken during this discussion and begin within the next seven days:
1) Research and Inclusion of larger volume of verifiable third party citations regarding work and notability
2) Include banners of other WIKI Project that may wish to contribute
3) Finalize the format and tone of the article
I welcome thoughts and discussions regarding this article, and ask that anyone seeking to edit use the talk page during this period to help build consensus. 
IlliniGradResearch (talk) 20:20, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I found the citation for the "history of stalking" sentence in the Newsweek article.  It doesn't really say the same thing in the Newsweek article as what we say in the Wikipedia article, which is why I didn't find it the first time I read the Newsweek article, but it's close enough that I'm not going to dispute it. 173.170.157.188 (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Review and Rewrite Discussion

message: I would like to begin the discussion on citations and information. Please discuss in an appropriate fashion, and make comments below the individual citation to ease reference please. 
1) The first one under the references tab is a New Times article "Vocal Minority Insists It Was All Smoke and Mirrors", referencing Sibrel and his encounter with Aldrin, as well as the issue of the moon landing and Mythbusters approach to testing the theories set forth. 
2) This second article, also by the NYT, is a short write up on the altercation between Aldrin and Sibrel.
3) This third NYT article is more detailed on Sibrel, and covers the subject through his routine and operations.
IlliniGradResearch (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations Review

message: As I mentioned above, I am all for a complete rewrite of the article to better conform to WP:BLP & WP:NPOV. However, for now, to put the section of debate to rest, I have reviewed my prior citations, and further reviewed the one in the section prior to the edits and found the support the statements currently on the page.  Please take the time to review the citations prior deleting as edit warring is problematic and takes us all off the goal of the wiki, which is to add content where appropriate. Again, I am asking for people to actually review the citations.  Had this been done before, it was clear the prior citation backed up at least a portion of the deleted text.  Please discuss thoughts here in this section so they can be incorporated into the eventual rewrite.
Please note, the citations listed were researched using UIUC's broad database and availability of material.    IlliniGradResearch (talk) 16:59, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I found the citation for the "history of stalking" sentence in the Newsweek article.  It doesn't really say the same thing in the Newsweek article as what we say in the Wikipedia article, which is why I didn't find it the first time I read the Newsweek article, but it's close enough that I'm not going to dispute it. 173.170.157.188 (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Edit Issues in Criticism Section

message: How would you react if a stalker cornered you? There is no reason to believe the landings were fake, or to condone a stalker's actions like Sibrel. ````Bellahdoll —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bellahdoll (talk • contribs) 17:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ??

message: Added NPOV template.  This article is attempting to show that Bart Sibrel is wrong, when Wikipedia's goal is to be informative about all sides of a subject.  Wikipedia articles are not intended to form people's opinions for them (no matter "obviously" incorrect Sibrel may seem).  
The second 2/3rds of this article needs to be re-written in a neutral tone, and include the counter-arguments, i.e. some of Sibrel's own reasons for why he believes what he does.  The allegations can remain, but need to be reported from a neutral stance. lunaverse 21:09, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of what you think about him, Caesarion, Sibrel is a public figure of some notoriety.  So, he should have an article.  By your reasoning, Adolf Hitler wouldn't deserve to have an article about him. But he does have an article.  Writing an article about someone does not necessarily mean you agree with them. GeorgeC 19:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call, will diarise cutting this down to a) a smaller article and b) something which conforms to NPOV - Having looked at the article, it will probably be a pretty big edit so we could do with some hardcore conspiracy theorists around to balance the discussion. Anyone know any? [half-smile ;)] --Si42 01:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't know why liars like Bart Sibrel should have their opinions given equal weight. It's no one's obligation to present their whacked out ideas as truth, especially when the majority of the evidence weighs against them. Stating that in an encyclopedia hardly exhibits bias.129.2.167.219 (talk) 16:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: seconded/thirded?  Is this guy famous (or infamous, or notorious) for anything other than being a 38 year old "man" who got his ass beat by a 72 year old hero? Not even remotely notable.108.31.242.232 (talk) 01:45, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: I see it's been removed.  It's a screenshot (from the Fox special) which, according to the rules, is allowed.  I even said it was a screenshot!  Honestly, it's BS like this that's ruining Wikipedia. GeorgeC 19:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of Sibrel 

message: This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it.  Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed.  I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy.  In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 03:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  YouTube links 

message: There have been a couple of cases of vandalism to the See also section - one was reverted earlier and I reverted to the last unvandalised version. Sibrel is clearly a crank, but that's no excuse for vandalising the article. Autarch (talk) 12:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent vandalism 

message: There are many people who have made films or been punched. What makes this person noteworthy?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.96.114 (talk) 20:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: by noteworthy, do you mean he should have a wikipedia entry? my answer would be a firm Yes.  He has a moon hoax movie, a moon hoax site, and he appears, as an "Investigative Reporter" no less, on Fox's own moon hoax "documentary"-- its very important that information about him is available in a forum such as wikipedia. --Petzl (talk) 03:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

text: He was widely mocked after the Aldrin incident (including apparently on Jay Leno, etc.); should probably be more on that... AnonMoos (talk) 01:09, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Many people have been punched, but I'll wager there are darn few that have been punched by someone who walked on the Moon.  It was a newsworthy event, and that makes it encyclopedic.--Edgewise (talk) 04:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

text: He's noteworthy for reasons other than being punched.  Being punched was just notable fallout from his otherwise somewhat well-known activities.  He is a public figure of repute (ill or otherwise), and therefore an article is both useful and justifiable.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.27.121.68 (talk) 06:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

text: No. Charles Manson was asked who he (Manson) was & he said he's "nobody". Sibrel is less than nobody 14.202.132.63 (talk) 09:34, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this person noteworthy? 

message: "Sibrel's claims of a lunar landing hoax have been widely refuted and laid to rest by the scientific and space science communities, in addition to a recent testing of Sibrel's theory's by the creators of the show Mythbusters."
Damn, who writes this drivel? Jay, is that you. How'd you get that Hasselblad? How'd the LM stay cooled by car batteries for two full days in 230F temp? Do you have to have a retro-reflector to bounce a laser off the moon and detect a return? How do objects in shadow get backlit with no air to scatter light? Why do the LRO photos absolutely SUCK?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.177.149.37 (talk) 14:59, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Objects in shadow get backlit by sunlight scattered by the lunar surface's dust - see mythbusters. The LM stayed cooled by sublimation of water ice. The LRO's cameras have resolution specs that match the quality of the photos they make. Future spacecraft might show more detail. Even the Soviets acknowledged the US landings. 145.97.222.186 (talk) 23:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy 

message: In this edit user QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV removed the legal section which is properly sourced. The reason given was:
: Some WP:FRINGEBLP problems here. Cleaned up.
This is no reason to remove a properly sourced incident that actually happened and was mentioned on a news website so I have restored the section. Everyone else, please check the page history from time to time to make sure this section is not deleted. --Hooverplant (talk) 16:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have opened a discussion on the appropriateness of this section on  the BLP noticeboard here.   DGG ( talk ) 00:12, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arrest / vandalism incident 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: What school, college and so forth...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.144.165 (talk) 16:20, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where was Bart Sibrel born and suchlike background.... 

message: The box on the right mentions "Taxi driver" and that is like saying that Tom Cruise is a pizza delivery boy since he did that kind of work once...  Jim Carrey was a homeless, so why not add this info as well?  Well, for a good reason, because that does not represent the known person, even though it is OK to mention any side info in the biography section, but not in the right-hand box. 
Bart Sibrel clearly states in his article here, posted July 20, 2017: http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/land-moon-1960s-technology/
"The fact that I, during one past occasion (though no longer), drove a taxi on weekends to help pay the bills during an economic downturn, is used by some desperate critics to negate the fact that I have been a professional filmmaker for more than thirty years, and as such, can highly discern fraudulent photography when I see it. (See a list of my films, whose budgets ranged from $2000 to $500,000, by clicking HERE.) If you really think about it, what these lovers of denial are saying is that if you drive a yellow car, this disqualifies you from being able to perceive the Truth. Anyone who makes such a nonsensical argument to begin with, is likewise proving, by their own ridiculous misstatements, that it is they who lack the ability to perceive reality."
Regardless of what anyone might think of Bart Sibrel, a "crackpot" or whatever, he is clearly NOT a taxi driver, even if he did had to earn some money at a certain point in his life. That can be mentioned in his late-life biography section, but not on the occupation box.  Bart Sibrel is known for his stance on the moon landings and his work as a filmmaker on the subject. Portraying him as a "Taxi driver" is clearly an attempt to belittle his documentary film work (regardless if we agree with his work or strongly disagree with his work).
Per my explanation above, I will remove the Taxi driver reference from the right-hand box. 
John Hyams (talk) 20:46, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Taxi driver" 

message: When checking the Birmingham News citation regarding Jim McDade's review of Bart Sibrel's film, the link leads to the following site: http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Bart%20Sibrel.htm.  When checking the root domain, a blog site can be found: http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk  .  Accordingly, by no means can this website be used as a reference. There is no way to verify the accuracy of quote from the Birmingham News article, and overall, this "thekeyboard.org.uk" website does not meet the requirements for a reliable citation source on Wikipedia. Therefore, I will remove this citation and call for a more reliable/proper citation. I will not delete the paragraph but rather add a notification that a citation (a reliable one) is needed.
If no reliable citation can be provided, then this "Birmingham News article quote" can eventually be deleted, per WP:BLP.
Note: Overall I think that the paragraph with the film review (even with proper citing) does not match the section title, and it actually belongs in the article about Sibrel's film, not the article about Sibrel himself. The Criticism section in the film's article would be a more appropriate place for this kind of critique/review.
John Hyams (talk) 22:57, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Birmingham News citation - not really available 

message: The current structure of the article should be revised to adhere with Wikipedia's biography template.
John Hyams (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article must adhere to Wikipedia's biography template 

message: That he can probably earn a lot of money offering himself up to be punched.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.218.11.220 (talk) 21:29, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Somebody should make the point to this guy.. 

message: I have deleted this section after searching in vain for any evidence of the supposed awards. It is only on Sibrel's own web sites and YouTube channel . I think that unless any source can be found it is better to just leave this off.Garyvines (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awards 

message: # 
# 
# 
have a couple of problems:
* "Bart Sibrel stated the following main reasons that the Apollo missions were a fake:"  is putting Sibrel's own theories into WP's voice. We can't do that: we should leave this as "Bart Sibrel claimed the following main reasons for why he believed that the Apollo missions were a fake: ", as it was.
* Secondly, "Apollo's achievement with its 50 year-old technology cannot be reproduced in 2019" may be true, but 2019 has no relevance to 1969. The hypothesis "If we can't do it in 2019 we couldn't do it in 1969" is a different statement. I don't know if that's Sibrel's claim, but it's not a statement supported by Don Pettit's statement as cited here.  Andy Dingley (talk) 22:50, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have renamed that section accordingly, to make it clear that these are Sibrel's statements only. John Hyams (talk) 11:39, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: * No, these two points still apply and need to be fixed. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  3RR on adding Sibrel's opinions as fact 

message: I have been on Wikipedia as an editor since 2005 (!). I am stunned by the audacity and non-neutral approach by which this article is written.  The article as it is now, clearly violates Wikipedia's NPOV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view). John Hyams (talk) 18:16, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Moreover, Wikipedia is not a platform for defaming living people. John Hyams (talk) 18:41, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:BLP aside, which aspects of the article violate WP:NPOV? Note that WP:FRINGE is entirely relevant here, and sourced debunking of Sibrel's theories is entirely appropriate. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇  20:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is very little debunking of Sibrel either here, or necessary. In the canon of Apollo denialists, Sibrel is well known for his personality, but not for his point-by-point claims against Apollo (such that they'd be concrete enough to debunk). His specific claims are mostly just too vague "Of course they didn't go" to address (or to be convincing). Andy Dingley (talk) 21:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Quite the contrary.  I just cited a documentary called Lunar Legacy which successfully refutes many of Sibrel's claims, including his argument that the astronauts were filming earth from low orbit through a round window or similar cutout, when in fact such a representation would be impossible due to earth rotation + spacecraft orbital velocity.  There are other errors in his DVD, including mistaking a window frame edge for an "arm", and other spurious nonsense. I'm asking that my edits be approved through consensus. Cr20324 (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious NPOV issue on this BLP page 

message: Watching the interaction between Sibrel and Aldrin, the order of events is clearly logged here incorrectly. Aldrin tells Sibrel "Will you get away from me?" and THEN Sibrel insults him, saying "You're a coward, a liar, and a thief-" at which point Aldrin punched him. The article does not accurately reflect the confrontation. 203.123.117.108 (talk) 07:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of Events 

message: In the first paragraph "the false belief" should be changed to "the belief". The article should not make judgment of the information or suggest to the reader what to think about the information. RManPT (talk) 05:00, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Would violate WP:NPOV to not accurately describe the belief. WP:FRINGE beliefs are stated as such. KoA (talk) 05:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2022 

message: There should be a link to Bart Sibrel's 2021 book: "Moon man: The true story of a filmmaker on the CIA hit list." https://www.amazon.co.uk/Moon-Man-True-Story-Filmmaker/dp/1513686569 185.182.71.38 (talk) 19:26, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bart Sibrel book 

message: The moon landing denial section mixes in the rebuttals with the claims, and is not clear on which the citation applies to. Could these maybe be reorganized as a two column table or indented bullets, to more clearly distinguish claim from rebuttal?Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 20:07, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moon landing denial section 

message: Easily found when he was born.
He has a publicly available criminal history available here (archived).
He was born Dec 15 1964.
The criminal history is DUIs and vandalism that got downgraded from felony to misdemeanor.
The page is locked so I put this here for future reference.
71.224.252.76 (talk) 18:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biographical data