Talk:Baltimore City College

message: Thx2005 why would u remove the recent news section not only was it useful but many important items have been permanently removed as a result like the schools rankings etc. Also vandalism is not worthy of its own section in history it is simply a recent news piece. Your revision has costed the page
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.166.47.26 (talk) 00:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent News Removal

message: The mention of the vandalism of Baltimore City College in the Castle on the Hill section, although noteworthy, may only be of ephemeral importance.  Perhaps create a recent news section to highlight current happenings at the castle on the hill.  Golem88991 21:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism?

message: This comment may sound hypocritical considering I have added a number of alumni recently to the list, but maybe it is time to limit down the list of alumni to people who we think made extremely significant contributions.  For example, Martin Rodbell, who won the Nobel Prize is clearly a notable alumnus, the same is true of John Wheeler, who is a well known theoretical physicist.  However, there are many people, who only have local fame, for example Gregory Kane or Judge Hammerman. I do want to say though that it is not simply an issue of whether or not the individuals have a wikipedia article.  Though in the case of the examples I chose the individuals, who I would keep do have wikipedia articles that does not need to be the case. Golem88991 05:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable Alumni

message: Something about these topics needs to be add to the page.  Preferably by someone, who actually knows something about these topics. Golem88991 05:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Integration and the admission of female pupils?

message: This new edition to the list of notable alumni seems to be a reach.  He only played four games, which is not even a full season.  I think he should be removed and I will do so unless something notable about him can be shown.  I do not think we should pad the list of alumni.  The school has an impressive list and does not need every individual, who ever graduated from the school. Golem88991 05:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 67knight, your argumentation is compelling.  Even if they only managed to play in a few games on the professional level, that in itself was a feat.  I agree with you.  I will not remove them from the page.  Thank you for your input.  Golem88991 03:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ara Person?

message: Neither Dr. Joseph Antenson, nor Mrs. Jean Johnson are listed.  Both served as principal during my time there, the former as a regular principal, the latter as acting principal before Joseph Wilson's tenure.  I don't have the exact dates and I don't want to add them without any sort of verifiable information.  I haven't been able to find any.  Can somebody help?  --WriterThesp77 03:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Principals List

message: This is a dispute about whether Baltimore City College is the "third oldest" high school in the United States, or if Barringer High School is.--Thx2005 21:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment: Is BCC the third oldest high school?

message: Does anyone have the year that the last City-Poly game was played at Memorial Stadium?  I feel like this information, while probably not of great importance, would help make the section flow better.  A quick googling didn't turn anything up. Pcarter7 23:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: American Football Rivalry

message: I propose a new article, called "Baltimore City College Speech and Debate" consisting of what is currently called City College forensics on the Baltimore City College page.  It is now big enough to have its own page like the alumni page and it is the one part of the City page that keeps growing.  The new title also reflects how the debate teams are referred to at the school. Any comments?67knight·talk·
23:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Baltimore City College Speech and Debate

message: Should there be a mention/section of the Alumni Association on the BCC page--68.166.47.26 14:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alumni Association

message: I am proposing a new article for the History of Baltimore City College.  The current section history has become too long to be apart of the main article and deserves its own article at this point. Golem88991 22:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: Agree B ... but you should be thinking about GA ...you are close Victuallers 19:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Schools Assessment

message: This is a fine article. Here are a few suggestions for improvement:
*A section on the school's finances would improve the page - fundraising, budget, etc. 
*It would be easier on the reader if the article referred to the school by only one name rather than switching between three different names.
*The prose could be improved still further with a good copy editor:
:* EX: City College's Tudor Gothic building lasted until 1892 when it was undermined by the construction of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad tunnel from Camden Station to Mount Royal Station, and collapsed. - "undermined" doesn't really work here
:* EX: Both programs provide students with the opportunity to engage in rigorous learning so as to better prepare them for the challenges of college and offer some students the opportunity to earn college credit. - wordy
:* EX: In 1902 the students took the effort to make Lacrosse a permanent fixture of school. - wordy
*Individual years are not usually linked, unless there is a specific page for them such as 1997 in sports.
*However, in the early 1990s Principal Antenson removed the two tier system because he believed it to be racially discriminatory. - Could you expand on this a bit?
*Having the lyrics of the school song seems overkill to me.
*The "Popular culture" reference should be integrated into another section. One sentence does not a section make.
If you have any questions about this review, please let me know. Nice work. Awadewit | talk 11:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA pass

message: I think we should move this list to the history article.  Other history pages included this list, such as the History of Michigan State University. Golem88991 19:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Principals List

message: I attempted an edit but I believe that unless sufficient sources can be found this section should be deleted or minimized.--Bcc07 15:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the IP address, which is the source of this edit, has been a source of a large deal of vandalism, some of which has been directed in the past at the City College article. Golem88991 15:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Band

message: User:Knightgal and I disagree over the size of this image.  I have argued that this image should conform with the suggestion of WP:MOS, which discourages specifying the size of images.  Knightgal has argued that the image falls under the the readability exception of the guideline.  I personally, do not think that the image is any more illustrative of the marching band in the larger size of the image.  However, I want to open up a discussion on the matter so that we can avoid an edit war. Golem88991 13:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, I want to make it clear that I did not shrink the image.  All I did was remove the parameter that specifies the size per WP:MOS.  This makes the image the default size that is specified in a users preferences, generally this is 180px.  Second, the mere fact that others have chosen to ignore the MoS is not a justification for ignoring it in this article.  Third, the only band article to have featured article status is the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band, which has conformed to the MoS by not specifying the size of its images.  Thanks, Golem88991 20:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Marching Band Image Size

message: Some of my students were looking over the Baltimore City College page and wondered why the band was not in the article, especially since the debate team, the choir and the yearbook were.  So we created an article.  I also noticed on your project page, you were looking for more images.  We found this one and scanned it in.  Then Mr. Golem88991 reduced it so small you couldn't make out much on the picture, so here we are. I really don't see the big deal here, maybe its me, but Mr. Golem88991 downsized the picture because of the manual of style, yet I think there are exceptions that really don't hurt the page. The following have pictures well in excess of the 180px and no MOS objections have been raised there: Stanford University Marching Band (300px), The Ohio State University Marching Band (250px), Coral Springs High School (350px), Pride of Dixie Marching Band (500px), Purdue All-American Marching Band (250px), Cornell Big Red Marching Band (260px), Dartmouth College Marching Band(400px), Kansas State University Marching Band (400px) and the UCLA Band (300px).  Since there are clear exceptions to the authority you cited, I am going to change the picture back to 280px.  The way it is now, the words on the banner are not readable, the faces aren't seeable.  A larger picture clearly enhances the section.Knightgal 20:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, I want to make it clear that I did not shrink the image.  All I did was remove the parameter that specifies the size per WP:MOS.  This makes the image the default size that is specified in a users preferences, generally this is 180px.  Second, the mere fact that others have chosen to ignore the MoS is not a justification for ignoring it in this article.  Third, the only band article to have featured article status is the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band, which has conformed to the MoS by not specifying the size of its images.  Thanks, Golem88991 20:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: from [[User:Knightgal]] to whom it may concern

message: Looks like the link to the school's site is bad now.  Anybody know off hand if there's a new one, or if somebody forgot to pay the hosting/domain bill or something?  --WriterThesp77 20:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Website Link

message: What's up with the student publication being added and then subtracted from the page?
Also, I remembered earlier this evening that the student-run literary magazine, Echoes, hadn't been mentioned.  I don't want to add anything about it until I can get something concrete.  Can anybody else do some research into it as well?
--WriterThesp77 04:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that echoes no longer exists. Golem88991 16:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Student Publications

message: Could someone please advise on the copyright status of the song lyrics included in this article. According to Wikipedia:Copyrights In most of the world the default length of copyright for many works is generally the life of the author plus either 50 or 70 years. The date of the author's death is not given. Did he die after 1936? Dahliarose 10:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That quote is from Copyright, not Wikipedia:Copyrights.  And it isn't exactly correct.  The current US law (at long last in agreement with the Berne Convention) is that copyright is automatic and lasts until 70 years after the author's death.  But that's only been true since 1989.  See Copyright#How long copyright lasts for more details, but the odds are that the copyrights on these lyrics have expired long ago. RossPatterson 00:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the songs has a named, author Eugene W. Milby. The song was written in 1923 so it is quite possible that the song is still in copyright as I would have thought it unlikely that 70 years will have passed since his death. He is quite possibly still alive. The other song printed here has no author's name so it depends on the date of first performance. These facts need to be established to ensure that these songs are out of copyright. If the status cannot be ascertained then the best approach would be to remove the songs altogether. The Wikipedia licence allows reproduction of articles around the world so my understanding is that it is not just the US law which has to be taken into consideration. Dahliarose 08:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Milby's City Forever, if published in 1923, would have been copyrighted for only 28 years, not 70 years past the author's death (see Copyright#How long copyright lasts, 2nd paragraph).  It would have entered the public domain in 1952 or 1980, depending on whether Milby renewed the copyright at its first expiration.  It is also entirely possible that neither song is copyrighted.  Prior to 1989, US copyright was not automatic - one actually had to claim it at first publication.  Failure to do so placed the work in the public domain.  The English Wikipedia operates according to US copyright law (see Wikipedia:Copyright#Fair use materials and special requirements), so that's the only one that matters for this purpose. Lastly, the Wikipedia practice on copyright is described at Wikipedia:Copyright#If you find a copyright infringement, and can be summed up as "err on the side of protecting the author's rights".  So if you truly believe one or the other of these songs is a copyright infringement, even after all I've written, you should delete them.  RossPatterson 12:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's all very complicated. I'm not sure how one could possibly check if the copyright was renewed or not. Milby's song is so short that I concede it is highly unlikely that he would have gone to the trouble of protecting the copyright. The inclusion of the song in the article probably qualifies as fair use so I think it's safe to leave it in. I'm more concerned about the other song as there is no reference for it so we have no idea of the name of the author or the date of publication. I will therefore err on the side of caution and remove the song. The songs are in any case of no interest to anyone not connected with the school. Dahliarose 16:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright of songs

message: The page seems to be getting cluttered with images.  In general, I would argue that images are good for the page, but at some point there are too many images and I think the page may have exceeded its capacity for images.  Not every section needs an image and unless the image actually adds something substantively to the page it may be unnecessary.
I also would like to renew my objection to the resizing of images.  With the proliferation of images on the page, resizing images such as the band picture makes the page look crowded.  Golem88991 19:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your comments about images are puzzling, especially when one considers the fact that you have put more images on the page than anyone else. Are you saying that images are okay so long as you put them there?  67knight 21:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all, I do not rule out the possibility whatsoever that some of the pictures that should be removed are ones that I have added.  All I am saying is that I think we have reached a point in which adding more pictures could make the article look cluttered.  Furthermore, your comment fails to address the issue.  You have chosen a personal attack rather than addressing the issue at hand.  If you do not feel the page is cluttered, then say so and give me the reason why.  Alleging that I am a hypocrite, does not add anything to the debate.  So please contribute, but do so constructively, and if you want an image that I have put on the page taken off, then say so and give me a reason why.  Thanks, Golem88991 22:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: * Dead and problematic links needing attention.  SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dead and problematic links

message: Could someone possibly provide some clarification about the baccalaureate degree. The article says: "Despite its name, the school is not a college as it lacks the authority to confer baccalaureate degrees." I'm not familiar with the US school system so I find this sentence somewhat baffling. I cannot find any reference to baccalaureate degrees and I think they need to be explained. The baccalaureate is normally a school qualification not a further education qualification so how can the qualification be a degree? Do some schools in the US continue to educate students from 18 to 21 so that they continue their further education at school rather than moving to university? The use of the word college is possibly misleading here too as college (in the UK at least) is used in the naming of schools but I presume that college in this instance means a university/institute of further education. Or is College perhaps a specific type of US school which offers a particular baccalaureate programme? Dahliarose (talk) 14:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Baccalaureate degree is another way to refer to a Bachelor of Arts in the United States.  If it is a source of confusion I will replace baccalaureate with Bachelor of Arts.  With respect to your second series of questions, in the US a college generally refers to an institution that has the ability to grant undergraduate degrees.  Thus, the school is not a college, since it does not have the power to grant students Bachelor degrees.  Golem88991 (talk) 17:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the explanation. Bachelor of Arts would be much clearer as baccalaurate degree is certainly something I've never come across in the UK so I imagine the term will be unfamiliar to most international readers. It might be best to change the word college as well to "institute of further education" or university as the word college has lots of different meanings and is a source of confusion to readers like me outside the US. It certainly hadn't occurred to me that because the school was called a college it might be mistaken for a university. Lots of schools in the UK are called college (eg, Cheltenham College, Dulwich College, etc. Dahliarose (talk) 17:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have wikilinked college to the American English usage in the article on the term college, but if you feel that it still needs further clarification then I will change it to "institution of higher education".  Golem88991 (talk) 17:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder if it might be best to leave the sentence out of the introduction altogether. It seems somewhat unnecessary to me. The intro makes it perfectly clear that Baltimore is a school. Or would American readers be confused if there was not some sort of explanation? The subject of these baccalaureate degrees is also mentioned in the history section which perhaps needs some modification. Do you not have Bachelor of Science degrees in the US as well or does baccalaureate refer specifically to arts degrees? Dahliarose (talk) 20:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Baccalaurate degrees

message: There's a deletion review of all alumni categories for US high schools, including :Category:Baltimore City College alumni. Occuli (talk) 20:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: DRV

message: Considering this is TFA, this section needs additional citations (as indicated there). Not sure how this got through, since the tags have been there for over a year. I tried but failed to find refs for two of them; any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Airplaneman  ✈ 02:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Baltimore City College#Principals]]

message: A major problem exists when a FA/GA such as this exists in direct contradiction to another article - List of the oldest public high schools in the United States, which has BCC at #34 and Barringer as #30. Much of the referenced article is sourced. It is perhaps a matter of definition - "public," "oldest" and so on - but the claim that BCC is the "third oldest public school" is problematic when more than 30 clearly older schools are making the same claim. Resolution needed. Sensei48 (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Internal Consistency: Dating Oldest Schools.... Again

message: This article has obvious typos, an unbalanced lead, unclear sentences and unsourced material. It no longer meets the criteria for a featured article. DrKiernan (talk) 17:21, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: DrKiernan, thanks for pointing out some of the problems with the City College article.  It had been heavily edited by a few well meaning folk, but after reading the most recent edition, I had to agree with you.  I've cut the lead and eliminated much of the unsourced material.  I will be doing more throughout the rest of this month. 67Knight 03:00, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. DrKiernan (talk) 13:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA 

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message: Hi everyone,  I am concerned that this article does meet the featured article criteria anymore. Here are some issues I found in the article:
*The lede needs expansion to summarise all sections of the article. 
*The history section is long, considering there is an article dedicated to this topic, and it doesn't include any information after 1978. 
*Student enrollment stops at 2015 and should include a more recent year. 
*The Extracurricular section reads as promotional and puffery. I also think it is needlessly detailed and much of it can be removed. 
*There are many people listed in the Notable faculty members section that are not notable by Wikipedia's standards and should be removed. The remaining information should be rewritten as prose and combined with the Principals section
*The Principals section should also remove non-notable people, combined with the Notable faculty section and rewritten as prose.
Is someone willing to bring this article back to featured article standards? If not, I will nominate this for featured article review. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 00:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: FA concerns