Talk:Louis VIII of France

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thread_title:  File:Louis8lelion.jpg Nominated for Deletion 

message: I had added on 29 August 2015 a succession box at the bottom of the page for Louis VIII that he was a "Disputed" King of England, which is true. However, User:Hchc2009 moved the title to "Titular" and changed the template, arguing that: "to be the King (disputed or otherwise), you needed to be coronated; see cited Carpenter source". This statement is absolutely wrong, at least as far as Wikipedia standards go. If this is the case, then please remove John I of France as a king, as well as Edward V of England and Edward VIII of England. None of them were crowned but modern historians consider them all kings. Being crowned does not make one king, which is why people like Philippe III of France were able to assert their royal authority before they were crowned. In fact, Louis VIII of France was the first Capetian king of France to not be crowned during his father's lifetime, which means he ruled uncoronated for a short time after Philippe II's death. Had Louis died prior to his coronation would he not be considered king? Absolutely not! He'd just be a very short-lived king. There is definitely precedent for kings to forego coronation or die before the ceremony, but that does not make them any less the king.
Louis VIII was a "disputed" king of England. The very fact that we are discussing this proves that fact. As a disputed king, he had actual power over a portion of England, power that was given to him by the barons. The fact that he had to sign a treaty denying he ever claimed the English throne is proof that he had claimed the English throne during this time. And the fact that we have dates for both his assumption of that claim and the abandonment of that claim further is evidence. Louis was a disputed king of England and I challenge you to argue his case was any different than Napoleon II's or Louis Antoine, Duke of Angoulême's, both of whom are considered "Disputed" emperor/king of France.–Darius von Whaleyland, Great Khan of the Barbarian Horde 22:32, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an extensive body of literature on the nature of medieval kingship in both England and France, exploring some of the similarities and many differences between the two. The Anglo-Norman traditions of selecting kings, the role of the Church and God in the process, the purposes/meanings of coronations were different from those in Capetian France (and different again to the Empire etc.). The Anglo-Norman debates over the period about the role of primogeniture, election, the coronation oath, etc. were very real: witness the discussions over how the young Henry III should portray his first coronation, and the justification for the second. Louis "claimed" the throne, but that didn't make him a king unless he had been coronated by the Church - and, of course, Louis wasn't the first would-be medieval English monarch to come badly unstuck over their failure to achieve this! The key task on the Wikipedia, though, is to follow reliable sources for the period. I can't find any evidence of modern historians describing Louis as the "disputed King of England", which would be essential if we were to make the claim in articles here. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:58, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I concede to your argument in this specific case. I have heavily modified his succession box while also removing his predecessor and successor. I have actually seen historians call him both "titular" and "disputed" king of England (or equivalents), but I did not think to record such instances at the time I saw them. Technically Louis' claim to England falls just outside my PhD topic on Capetian dynasticism (I am focusing on 1270 to 1490). If I run across those references again, I will bring them here. Louis did have a very vague hereditary claim to England through his wife, I remember. His wife was a granddaughter of Henry II of England via Castile. That was recorded by chroniclers as the reason why his claim was legitimate.–Darius von Whaleyland, Great Khan of the Barbarian Horde 08:12, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed King of England 

message: Can someone verify if Louis VIII was excommunicated by the pope, together with date and reason if possible? I found a short text that says, "His son Roger Bernard II ( The Great ) also assisted in the War of the Albigenses in their resistance of the French Kings Louis VIII and Louis X , both of whom were excommunicated". But I can't find another source saying he was excommunicated. Some other sources say that Phillip II was.--Thinker78 (talk) 22:59, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Excommunicated by the pope?