Talk:Rush Limbaugh/Archive 5

message: Its amusing how some people would automatically assume I am upset by the results of the election. I had to laugh at the comments though. 
I guess I do a good job of keeping a NPOV. Caper13 02:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:What is a troll#Not feeding the trolls --Dual Freq 03:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As someone that generally keeps tabs on articles of controversial political figures I would like to thank Dual, Caper, and Crockspot (who I have regularly seen on politico pages).  You did great in a rough time for WP:BLP articles for anyone in politics.  I am glad to see some semblance of order on the WP. --Rtrev 03:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Rtrev. I too see some of the same names out there (including you) reverting vandalism and trying to fight the good fight. Caper13 07:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  bait from anonymous posters 

message: The article quotes a random neuroscientist from Oct 25 as saying: "Anyone who knows the disease well would regard his movement as classic severe Parkinson's disease. Any other interpretation is misinformed."  The neuroscientist's opinion was subsequently contradicted by Fox himself the next day (Oct 26) when he explained to Couric: "The symptoms that I had in the ad that I did, that's called dyskinesia, and that's actually from too much medication." I suggest removing the neuroscientist's opinion since we now know it to be wrong. --Herb West 20:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice try.  Actually, poor try.  Fox did not contradict the neuroscientist, though that's would you'd like to read into it.  Wishing won't make it so.  Even if Fox had contradicted the neuroscientist, that would not necessarily make the neuroscientist wrong. Eleemosynary 17:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction in the Fox controversy 

message: Rush has stated many on the air that his ex-wife Marta was NOT an aerobics instructor.  This matter was apparently misreported several times when there were married.
:: Do you have a source that confirms that? Caper13 04:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ex-wife's profession 

message: Limbaugh utilizes attempts to spark controversy or create notable criticism as a signifigant part of his radio program. He also focuses on significant political controversies and notable figures (and he himself is one). The tone and character of his discussions can often lead to sensationalism. Part of his success and fame can be attributed to his use of sensationalism surrounding discussions of public figures and pertinent political debates. Some of what he says may not be subjectively evaluated as "notable" (there seems to be no objective standard for deciding notability), however sensational coverage of public figures, surrounding historically signifigant political issues, that becomes saturated throughout a wide swath of media and subsequently re-insterted into the discussion of the historically signifigant political issue originally mentioned can indeed be successfully argued as maintaining "notability." 
I understand the desire to keep this page from becoming a bash-Limbaugh page but the frequency of controversies can be effectively attributed to Limbaugh's own style of commentary that invites and even flourishes with controversy. Not everything someone takes offense to should be considered notable but you also have to ask how widely addressed, reported, debated, and discussed must an instance be in order to reach this "notability"? The proposal that Limbaugh may have many of instances of controversial discussions does not make them less "notable." 
A brief statement might be all that is required to reference the controversial comments. If we didn't allow controversial political commentary to be considered notable in Wikipedia context then Limbaugh would not be on here in the first place. -Johnyluv1 03:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Limbaugh gripes 

message: Play nice! - crz crztalk 13:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected 

message: I've restored the sourced information about the ACT UP confrontation on Pat Sajak's show. Changing, for example, "ACT UP activists" to "some gay activists" makes the article less informative. Why was this sourced info removed? WillyWonty 03:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm about to add the sourced info about the televised confrontation between ACT UP and Limbaugh back into the article. Dual Freq appears to be confused, believing that this info was sourced to The New York Times, when it is sourced to Newsday (one of the four sources for this sentence). Dual Freq also seems to believe that this is not notable; Newday disagrees calling this "one of television's most memorable fracases."  WillyWonty 20:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: None of the sources I have used or added to this article have been blogs. The Newsday source for the Act Up info is already in the article. Do you need more? WillyWonty 00:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: As far as that blog source goes, that was soemone else's. If you had mentioned that it was a blog any of the many times you had you removed it, then I would have known what it was and I wouldn't have put it back in with the well-sourced information you have repeatedly been removing. As far as ACT UP goes, the Newsday article includes "AIDS activists belonging to the Los Angeles ACT-UP chapter created one of television's most memorable fracases when they disrupted Limbaugh's one-night stint as guest host on 'The Pat Sajak Show' last March." Also, the August 28, 1990 Chicago Tribune, in the Dan Kening article "Motormouth" on page 2C describes "members of the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, who heckled him [Limbaugh] at a taping of 'The Pat Sajak Show.'" I'll add that source in a moment. No, I don't have links to these -- newspapers didn't have web sites in 1990 and if they do have these online somewhere I'm unaware of them. WillyWonty 01:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The source for the topics of the show and the ensuing heckling being abortion and affirmative action is from the show itself. I'm not sure how to cite that. My addition of this info was to correct the previous incorrect assertion that the show and heckling was about "protesting what they perceived as anti-gay hate speech." I'm not sure if this video is on the internet for me to link to. Thanks for the tip on the Trib/Newsday typo; I just corrected it. Again, no, I don't have links to these -- newspapers didn't have web sites in 1990 and if they do have these online somewhere I'm unaware of them. As far as sources right after the event, you could try the L.A. Times from April 3, 1990, "We sat in a CBS screening room Friday night watching arch-conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh sub for 'The Pat Sajak Show.' Hecklers a-plenty, as expected ..." Or the letter about "Limbaugh's Hecklers" from the April 7, 1990, L.A. Times. I find the later coverage -- such as on the 2001 Pat Sajak guest-hosted Larry King show on CNN or in a 1995 Washington Post article -- to be a better testament to the lasting impact and importance of this event. WillyWonty 01:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  For something which is supposedly so well documented and so notable that it is still being discussed in major newspapers today,  it has a definite lack of actual news sources to cite. The event certainly did happen, but it seems to have been long forgotten except for die hard anti-limbaugh partisans (not implying you are one, just noting that it is mostly blogs where you find a reference to it today, and usually of the more extreme "Limbaugh is Satan" sort.). Given that we can't verify the content of the sources and the lack of verifiable sources (unless Dual Freq is able to verify using Lexis Nexis (which I don't have or I would do it myself), I'd say we delete the details on the event or alternately delete all reference to it entirely. Personally, I'd keep the reference to the guest hosting itself since it was his first tv appearance, but get rid of the details bringing into line with the other appearances. The fact that there was hecklers there isnt notable by itself. Any controversial figure is going to attract hecklers on occasion.Caper13 05:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The protest group may have just been a gathering of the usual suspects or a rent-a-mob who are there to protest anything because they don't like the speaker or want attention. Limbaugh has attracted lots of protesters over the years. There is nothing notable about this incident in particular and the fact that we can't even determine what the people were specifically protesting, with verifiable sources, indicates its less than noteworthy status. It may have even been organized by one specific group, but its obvious from the tape that the disrupters there all had their own pet gripes. If it happened today you would have people simultaneously yelling about Tibet, The Patriot Act, Iraq, Haliburton, and the Trilateral Commission, all fighting members of wacko Fred Phelps God Hates Fags  crazies for shouting rights.Caper13 19:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I've added The Boston Globe as a source for the topic of the heckling per request. I've also added the Newsday quote to show the incident is notable, as requested. I'll add a few more later. Sajak has described the incident as "legendary," among others. WillyWonty 21:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Willy, so far none of your sources are readily verifiable. If the best that is available to show the segment was memorable is a 16 year old opinion piece from right after it happened, then that proves our point more than it does yours. Caper13 21:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'm not sure why you think a TV show getting heckled to the point that the entire audience has to be cleared isn't a notable event (this is the only time I'm ever seen it happen) but, per your request, since the Newsday article is from the early nineties, I'll see if I can add sources from the mid nineties as well as the 2000s that say that this was unique, legendary, memorable, etc. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by these sources not being readily verifiable. I don't think my footnotes can be any more explicit then including the publication, the date, the author, the title, and the page number. WillyWonty 22:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What I meant is that your sources are so old they are not available on the web without specialized accounts. I think we have been more than fair in allowing you a chance to prove your point. Its time to draw this to a close. Caper13 22:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Any episode of the Jerry Springer show? Caper13 22:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Congratulations, we now have 125 words for an incident that merits only a sentence or two at most. --Dual Freq 22:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Summarized, removed POV and reduced to 55 words. I retained a point Willy inserted as a compromise which quotes Pat Sajak as saying the event was legendary around CBS. This is undoubtedly POV, but if it is enough of a compromise to put this issue to bed, then so be it. Dual, I can't pass judgement on most of his cites since I can't access them, but if any of them are opinion based, or are unneeded, feel free to edit them out. There are plenty of citations for this event already and we could probably lose a few of the less valuable ones for readability sake if they don't belong. If this compromise isnt acceptable, I would go with a complete removal of the detail for this event altogether since I still question its notability and Willy has been unable to provide verifiable news sources that prove its notability and enduring newsworthyness (eg...15 year old news stores prove my point that this issue has been long forgotten by most mainstream news sources)Caper13 23:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourced information being removed 

message: I've restored the sourced information regarding the heckling Rush Limbaugh recieved while hosting the Pat Sajak show. This sourced information was specifically requested to make the paragraph more clear and correct its previous innacuracies. If anyone thinks they have a good reason for removing these sourced improvements, let's discuss it. Thank you. WillyWonty 23:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We did. See above. None of the new information you provided corrected any of the previous deficiencies. They were either unverifablie sources, old sources which didnt prove the events notability over time, or were non news sources providing only POV statements. I did include a reference you included as an attempted compromise but in short, your new sources added nothing new.Caper13 23:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Every single one of the sources is verifiable. You may have to use google or your local library. Every new source was specifically asked for (sources that attest that the incident is notable, sources that show the topic of the heckling, sources within the last 15 years, etc.). By removing this sourced information, you now leave the paragraph in the state it was before -- where readers like Dual Freeq might incorrectly assume what the topic of the heckling was, that it doesn't make sense that it was about abortion, that no one remmebers th eincident since it happened, etc. I've improved the paragraph to address each of your concerns, deleting those improvements harms the article. Maybe you should move on and try to find sources for the completely unsourced paragraph immediately after that.WillyWonty 23:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The NEW WKRP in Cincinnati basing a character on Rush Limbaugh called "Lash Rambo" isnt in much need of a source in my opinion, because I saw the episode. If you want to remove the entire section though, I have no problems with it. The Lash Rambo episode is about as notable as the Sajak one. In the end your additional sources were just more of the same, and they were insufficient to begin with. 10 weak sources doesnt equal 1 good one.Caper13 23:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think "I saw the episode" should count as a good source. Examples of good sources would be the ones I've used, like USA Today or the Boston Globe. Your personal view that the WKRP episode is as notable as the "legendary" show that is "one of the most memorable TV fracases of all time" isn't supported by any sources. Are you trying to edit this article based on your personal point of view, or based on good sources? WillyWonty 23:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: This information might fit better in the article about the Pat Sajak Show. Oh wait, The Sajak show isn't even notable enough to have its own article. Condense this down to a sentence or two and I think everyone will be satisfied. Did you know that there are 1,500,278 articles on wikipedia? Maybe we all should hit Special:Random and edit another article. --Dual Freq 23:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you two have made your personal points of view clear that for whatever reason you don't want this event mentioned in the article at all. However, multiple news organizations disagree with your personal assessment of this topic's importance. Also, I think I missed the point where either of you two said "Thanks for providing more sources, Willy, I'm sorry, I guess you were right about that abortion thing and I was wrong" or "Thanks, for providing more sources Willy, I'm sorry, I guess you were right about that ACT UP thing and I was wrong," or "Thanks for providing more sources, Willy, I'm sorry, I guess you were right about this being discussed on national news media in recent years and I was wrong," etc. Maybe of those 1,500,278 articles you two can find one to edit where you know the subject matter a little better? Or where you're willing to do a little more research? WillyWonty 00:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did congratulate you above and I'll say it again. Congratulations, we now have 125 words for an incident that merits only a sentence or two at most. --Dual Freq 00:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks Herb for finding that youtube video. "Heckled" and "activist" are from the newspaper sources, but you're right they really don't completely describe the nature incident, which is why I added the sourced quote and analysis. I'll add that back in. I'll also remove the latest efforts to introduce personal points of view in to the article (changing "called" to "claimed," "responded" to "responded in kind," etc.) Several edits to sourced paragraphs have been mande over the weekend that don't seem to be backed up by those sources. WillyWonty 21:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do the sources you have included in the paragraph use those quotes or are you getting those quotes from the video?--PTR 22:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Willy. I noticed you created a redirect for Pat Sajak Show to go to the Pat Sajak page. At the risk of actually having you do it, wouldnt it be more accurate to redirect Pat Sajak Show to Rush Limbaugh since after your edit, the Limbaugh page contains more information about the Sajak show, than Sajak's page does. Caper13 22:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, I don't think that really makes sense. I think the shows hosted by Limbaugh belong on the Limbaugh page and the shows hosted by Sajak belong on Sajak's page. Or, if enough people can find some sourced info to write a decent page just on Sajak's talk show, that might be a good idea, too. WillyWonty 22:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  And, yes, PTR, if I understand what you're asking, those sources do contain those quotes. Is there a specific quote you have a question about? WillyWonty 22:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This quote, "Women are dying every day all over the world because of people like you."  Since I can't look up the articles.  --PTR 23:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, that quote is in the Boston Globe article: "A shaken Limbaugh is verbally attacked after wandering out into an audience in 1990, when he was a substitute host on a late-night CBS show. 'Why am I mad?' says a woman being cheered on by others in the audience. 'Because women are dying every day all over the world because of people like you. You understand that? People with your attitude.'" I think that quote gives readers a pretty good sense of the type of heated exchange this was, beyond what they might assume when they see it described as "heckling." WillyWonty 23:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  Also, I'm removing Caper13s POV edits again. He's repeatedly said he finds these sources "unverifiable," so now he's clearly editing this paragraph to conform to his personal point of view without any knowledge of what its sources actually say. WillyWonty 22:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps the reason people can't find enough sourced info to write an article on the Sajak show, is because the Sajak show was not notable enough to have attracted enough attention. That still begs the question about why there should be more info on the Sajak show on Limbaugh's page, than there is on Sajak's page. Perhaps this entire section should be moved to Sajak's page. No more than a footnote about it belongs here. Rather than edit warring, would you answer the pertinent questions we have posed? Additionally, what about our last edit was POV? Caper13 22:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Have you looked for Pat Sajak Show sources? Or are you editing purely from your personal point of view? My understanding is that Wikipedia is a work in progress, and it's possible there are still topics that it may need articles on, and that many of its current articles could use improvements. Signs that your latest edit is pushing your personal point of view include: 1) Your saying you can't find the sources for the paragraph yet you edit it anyway. Without sources, what are you basing your editds on? 2) Removal of the CBS execs comments from USA Today and The Plain Dealer, because these show that it's a notable incident covered by multiple major newspapers and your POV seems to be that this is not a notable event and that it hasn't been covered by multiple major news organizations. 3) The removal of the sourced quote from The Boston Globe which shows that the topic of most heated exchange was over abortion law, not gay rights as Dual Freq seems to want to believe or suggest. 4) The inclusion of unsourced spin which seems to take sides, for example "forcing the clearance of the sound stage so taping could continue" seems to take the side of those who cleared the studio (they were forced to, they had no choice). Our sources instead use the type of neutral language we should use, such as "the studio was cleared." 5) Your previous assertions that the purpose of this article should be to celebrate Limbaugh's achivements suggests you're goals are less than neutrality, and your attempts to edit out anything that's less than glowing in his career seem to bear that out. WillyWonty 23:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It is probably worth mentioning that dedicating roughly three times the verbiage to a one-night guest host appearance as is spent on Limbaugh's own television show strongly suggests that WP:NPOV#Undue weight is being given to this particular event. --Allen3 talk 23:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Or that those pushing their personal point of view need to let this well-sourced paragraph be, and move on to improving the rest of the article. It seems to me that wikipedia is a work in progress, and if we try to judge everything based on whether soemthing else has an article or how long another paragraph is nobody ever would write anything. WillyWonty 23:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am taking your word for it that the sources are real and refer to the incident in question even though you have been unable to come up with any news sources on this incident that are accessible on the web. If you wanted to change the word 'forcing' to 'resulting in' I wouldn't quibble about it if you feel forced is not NPOV. I disagree with your assessment, but I wouldnt quibble. I chose 'forcing' because it was one word as opposed to two, in a section that was already too long. I kept the primary source (sajak) saying that the event was legendary (though I don't believe it to be) as a compromise. we dont need two or three people saying the same thing in a section which is already too long. Look up the word 'editing'. One of the goals of editing is brevity.Caper13 00:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Right, you removed the CBS exec statement sourced to two newspapers that states why the incident was legendary (he's never seen anyone sweat so much in his life) and kept the Sajak quote that simply says the incident was legendary. Readers like yourself who seem to be wondering why this incident is legendary are therefor deprived of the two newspaper sources telling them why. Then Dual Freeq changed the neutral " Sajak stated" to the non-neutral "Sajak claimed," because his personal point of view is that the incident is not legendary, so he wants to make that a "claim." And then you, Caper13, edited the sentence again, without any idea what the references even say, to  "Sajak said Limbaugh's confrontation with the activists was 'legendary around CBS.'" Of course, the source says nothing of the sort. WillyWonty 00:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourced information being removed Part 2 

message: Since the Letterman transcript is no longer in the article, since it may or may not have been accurate, do the current sources say the Letterman Quote? If they don't, the quote should go. --Dual Freq 00:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the the Limbaugh and Letterman quotes that precede the footnotes to the Dallas Morning News and the Chicago Sun Times are included in those sources. The unsourced sentence is the one with the words "citation needed" after it. WillyWonty 00:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: He also says of Limbaugh, "Wearing the orangest makeup since Mickey Rourke in "Wild Orchid," sweating like Albert Brooks in "Broadcast News" and tapping his foot like a nervous first-grader who has to go to the bathroom, Limbaugh was the most uncomfortable guest of the modern Letterman era." No bias there either. --Dual Freq 00:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you're suggesting -- that Roeper's assessment of the color of Limbaughs' makeup is based on some sort of bias, rather than being an assessment of the make-up? I'm also not sure what impact this has on that paragraph -- are you questioning Roeper's reporting of the exchange? Or are you also suggesting we include the sourced analysis from Roeper on how poorly Limbaugh looked? Also, I've chnaged your use of the non-neutral "claimed" back to the neutral "stated" in the Sajak paragraph. Try not to introduce your own biases into attributions. WillyWonty 00:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dual. Is the Roeper article a news article or an opinion piece. No news article would have something like that in it. As I said above, I can not verify these sources and am trusting Willy that these are actual news articles (not just published in a newspaper) and are valid to use as citations. If not. They should be removed. Caper13 01:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 11. But reads like an opinion to me. He says, "For nearly two hours, I played talk show tennis with my remote control, with the volleys coming so fast and furious during Limbaugh's and Stern's simultaneous appearances that smoke started seeping from the clicker." --Dual Freq 01:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, a Vogue photo shoot does sound notable for Hillary. I believe what made this notable for Limbaugh, according to the sources, was that the exchange was with Letterman. It was seen as an important battle in the 90s talk show wars. What are you proposing based on your Roeper "bias" claim? That facts reported in opinion columns can't be used? That opinion columns can never be used as sources? Neither of those sound right to me. -- WillyWonty 01:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Here's how you decide whether something somebody says is notable: If multiple well-respected news organizations decide it's worth covering. If Limbaugh talks ten hours a day and no decent sources notice, then he didn't say anything notable. If he talks for 30 seconds and multiple well-respected news organizations decide it's notable, then it's notable. That's editing based on sources rather than your own personal point of view about what you personally find "notable." WillyWonty 01:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Willy, I disagree that Notability is the relevant criteria. Notability in the sense that you are referring to is a guideline for which subjects deserve stand-alone articles. That's not the issue in this matter; Rush Limbaugh is obviously deserving of an article. Our job now is deciding what content should be included in the Rush Limbaugh article. The relevant criteria for Good Articles and Featured Articles is that the content be broad in coverage and stay "focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary details (no non-notable trivia)." Limbaugh's appearance on Letterman is trivia. It may be interesting to devoted Dittoheads but probably is unnecessary detail to the average Wikipedia user. I don't think it is consistent with Good Article criteria to update biography pages with late night talk show appearances. There are exceptions of course, such as these, but I don't think Limbaugh's appearance is an exception.--Herb West 02:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, Herb, if I understand you correctly you're saying that Notability says the Limbaugh hosted episode of the Sajak show deserves a stand alone article, but it doesn't deserve more than two sentances in this article? Also, I'm not the one who keeps bringing up the idea of notability. WillyWonty 20:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Both articles are gossipy entertainment "news". The "news" of the Dallas Morning News article is that Limbaugh appeared on Letterman the same night that Howard Stern appeared on Leno. The author uses that coincidence to juxtapose Limbaugh and Stern and argue that they're the same. It's clearly an attack on Limbaugh by attempting to associate him with Howard Stern's immature idiocy. The Chicago Sun Times article uses an identical tactic but goes a little further by noting that Snoop Doggy Dogg appeared on Arsenio Hall the same night as Limbaugh and Stern and therefore there's some vague connection between Limbaugh, Stern, and Snoop Doggy Dog. The Chicago Sun Times article is on Lexis Nexis Academic and both are available through Factiva if you have access to them. --Herb West 01:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, like I said, this was seen as an important moment in the 90s talk show wars between Letterman, Leno, Limbaugh, Stern, Arsenio, etc. I don't share Herb's point of view that comparing two of the top acts in talk radio (Limbaugh and Stern) amounts to "an attack." Also, we're not using these articles to report the opinions in them, but I think it's importnat to remember that we could. Sourced critical analysis is an important part of an encyclopedia article. WillyWonty 01:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letterman Transcript 

message: Caper13 has repeatedly edited sections that he admits to not reading the sources for. I've brought this to his attention multiple times, but he has not stopped. As can be expected, the sections now attribute misinformation to sources that those sources do not say. For example, he has replaced the neutral "Ultimately the entire audience was removed" with his point of view regarding how the incident ended up "resulting in the clearance of the sound stage so taping could continue," because he apparently believes the show couldn't have possibly continued without clearing the audience. He of course has no source for this idea. He then attributes his point of view to the Boston Globe. The Boston Globe article does not say anything remotely like this. Of course, he deleted the quote from what what the source actually says, when the source contradicts his point of view. He has also attributed the idea that "Limbaugh's confrontation with the activists was 'legendary around CBS'" to an episode of Larry King Live. None of the participants in that episode say that it was Limbaugh's confrontation (rather than the audience's actions, rather than Limbaugh's difficulty in handling the situation, etc.) that was the reason why the incident was "legendary." Why is misinformation from editors who admit they are not using any sources being allowed in this article? People who are writing things without any regard for what sources actually say are just editing the article to try to get it to conform to their personal point of view. I'd remove this information myself, but apparently I'm only allowed to remove totally fabricated misinformation three times? So, anyone want to discuss the pros and cons of having completly unsourced misinformation in this article? I, for one, am against it. I think it would be totally neat-o if we used actual sources rather than just stuff we make up that we wish were true. But maybe my goal of a neutral article based on actual sources is dead wrong, and someone can convince me to instead join them in writing more fan fiction into this article. WillyWonty 21:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Willy. A majority of your recent sources have been discredited as opinion pieces depite the fact that you described them as legitimate news items. The fact that an opinion piece comes from a major newspaper doesnt make it a news item or a valid source. I am willing to accept the story as a source for the fact that the episode happened, but not for an interpretation of it. You are attempting to use these biased sources as a vehicle for loading up the article with negative quotes and conclusions. No one is disputing that the episode took place, however you can't use biased sources as a vehicle to put a negative spin on every aspect of the story. This episode is AMPLY covered by the two sentences we currently have. The fact that we are even including the Sajak quote is meant as a compromise to your view - that this episode is of monumental historial importance despite the fact that no respected news source appears to have written about it in the 15 years since it happened. If you don't like it, we should remove the Sajak quote altogether since it does nothing to enhance the recounting of this barely notable event. Caper13 00:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean the event that is "barely notable" according to your insignificant personal point of view, but that is described as "one of television's most memorable fracases," "lengendary at CBS," and that the most read newspaper in America quotes a CBS exec saying he's never seen anything like? Also, if there is some crazy Wikipedia Law that exists somewhere outside of your imagination which says that analysis provided by major media critics is unacceptable, please direct me to it. In other words, stop editing the article to conform to your point of view and start backing things up with sources. I'm not sure what you mean when you describe reported facts as "negative spin." Even though they'd be perfectly acceptabel and quite valuable, I didn't even add any media critic's comments or interpretation to the article, just their reporting of basic facts. Facts which are consistently reported across multiple major news organizations. Facts which are easily observable to anyone now that Herb West has found the video on youtube. Facts which, of course, you then deleted because you think this article is supposed to be only be about Limbaugh's acievements. Making up things you wish Pat Sajak said in a TV show transcript you admit you've never read isn't a compromise, and this really isn't the place for your fan fiction. You should stick to what good sources say, stop changing things that are attributed to sources you haven't read, and stop deleting sourced facts just because they don't conform to your consistently proven wrong point of view. WillyWonty 02:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you intend to continue, please post on my talk page. I probably wont have anything more to say other than what I have already said above, but that is a more appropriate place for messages like this. Caper13 03:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: That's a good start, but while the fact that prominent news organizations find it memorable is important, it is also worth noting why they beleive it is memorable. To do otherwise is like saying that a football game is memorable, and which sports commentators say so, without mentioning why it is memorable (it was high scoring, or there was a brawl, or there was on on-field fatal injury, or whatever).  WillyWonty 01:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caper13 editing sections that he hasn't read the sources for so they conform to his POV 

message: Ok, as it appears Willy is unwilling to engage in compromise on this topic, who would be in favour of removing the entire Television appearances section as it is basically just a collection of trivia anyway. the fact that Limbaugh appeared on this talk show or that the New WKRP in Cincinatti named a character (who never appeared onscreen) Birch Barlowe really isnt important. The end result of this article should be that it can be peer reviewed and possibly be a featured article one day, and an article that is nothing more than a collection of trivia that is not important to the subject, will not qualify. The fact that Limbaugh may have riled someone up on one show, or said something controversial on another isnt notable on its own. Limbaugh says controversial things and riles people up every day. Opinions? Caper13 01:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree.  In an actual encyclopedia this would not get a mention. --PTR 14:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One could easily make a case for removing unsourced info of questionable importance like the WKRP thing. On the other hand, it's quite a stretch to compare "Limbaugh may have riled someone up on one show" to a "legendary" event that is "one of the most memorable TV fracases" and that a CBS exec had never seen anything like. If your goal is to make this a featured article, deleting well-sourced information about legendary and memorable events seems like the wrong way to go about it. What is the reason for deleting information on the CBS guest host incident again? Because it seemed like at one time it was because nobody covered it right after it happened, but then I provided two LA Times sources in the days after it happened. Then it had to be deleted bacuse nobody had talked about it in the last 16 years, so I provided major media sources from the mid nineties and early 2000s. Then it needed to be deleted because it just wasn't very important even though it had been covered by numerous prominent news organizatons, so I provided four prominent news sources that expressly talk about how important it is. It seems like people are looking for any reason they can find to delete this. So why does this need to be deleted again? Personal point of view trumps reliable sources? WillyWonty 02:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is legendary and memorable for a CBS exec may not be noteworthy in the larger context. I believe the deletion was appropriate. Gregmg 03:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Television appearances 

message: This paragraph was added with no citations:
It should be noted that the issue of Fox's movement and appearance was not the sole subject of Limbaugh's comments. Limbaugh also attacked Fox's appearance in the commercial as what he called a typical political tactic of offering a sufferer of disease or hardship to give politically oriented opinions in the hopes that potential critics will be dissuaded from opposing the "victim." More central to Limbaugh's argument was that Fox was characterizing the candidates and the ballot initiatives in question as "criminalizing" stem cell research, when the initiative in question dealt with the largely unrelated issue of human cloning. In a television interview Fox stated that he had not actually read the wording of the initiatives in question.
Anyone have a citation for this? --PTR 19:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At some time we need to take a look at this entire section. It is a mess the way it is now. Caper13 19:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Michael J. Fox unsourced para 

message: Strike added by User:Rtrev pending deletion per WP:BLP The article used to have a link to the term hate speech in the discussion of Limbaugh's penchant for name-calling and ridicule, this link has been present for at least 2 years, however it has recently been removed, without any discussion apparently.  This seems to me to be an example of sanitizing.  Similarly to the removal of links to Limbaugh's travel to underage sex tourism destinations with viagra in his luggage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.191.250.80 (talk) 03:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless you have support for any of the inferences you are making I will delete this comment as potentially libelous per WP:BLP --Rtrev 03:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This makes no sense.  1) the WP::BLP doesn't include the words "potentially libelous" in them -- what are you talking about and why do you refer to that page?  Wiki editors throw around the words "potentially libelous" as a justification for removing all sorts of material they do not like.  2)  What inferences is the above user making?  He states a fact about the page: it used to contain a link.  He says removal of this link is sanitization.  That comment has nothing to do with Rush Limbaugh.  That comment has only to do with the editing of articles.  Another way to put it is that removal of that link violates the NPOV policies. 3) If you read the actual wiki article on hate speech, it seems relatively clear that it is reasonable to find that Rush Limbaugh's speech falls into the hate speech category.  The media matters researcher Eric Boehlert explicitly states that Rush has a history of hate speech:   -- So again, why did you decide unilaterally to delete this.  Where is the discussion?  Why should it not be reverted?  What did you do to improve the content to make it not libelous, or did you just delete the content? 71.39.78.68 02:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  
Hate Speech link removed without discussion
 

message: I added a section on how Rush is referring to Barack Obama on his website.  That edit was reverted with the cryptic note (see show page.)  Why would a wiki editor REVERT perfectly good content and not just MOVE the content.
When my kid's leave their skateboard at the bottom of the stairs, I do not THROW THEIR SKATEBOARD AWAY and then grumble at them (see closet).  I move the skateboard to the closet.  And I give them a clear explanation of why I have done so.  But most importantly, I DO NOT THROW THEIR SKATEBOARD AWAY.  You are being completely disrespectful of me and the wikipedia community by deleting content that you believe should be moved.
I reverted the edit and ask the wiki editor to try remember the first principle of wiki editing, EDIT and do not just destroy -- IMPROVE the wiki and think good thoughts.
Jebus.  The wiki has so many power hungry deleters these days.
Don't be a deleta!
71.39.78.68 02:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be a very credible, well reasoned anonymous editor. Makes me wonder when semi-protection was removed from this article. This article is not a collection of names Limbaugh has called various people. --Dual Freq 03:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI - this article has always been heavily patrolled by Limbaugh PR flaks and sterilized of any information that reveals Limbaugh's demagogue-ic Nazi affinities and behavior.  Especially now that his drug-induced delusional disorder has gotten to the point where he self-describes himself as America's Anchorman.  Any effort to correct the distorted PR slant of this article is ultimately futile. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.37.244.227 (talk) 18:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know why anyone has a problem with these guys. From the post above you can see they are unbiased and only interested in creating a properly vetted NPOV article for the encyclopedia. Caper13 20:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: 75.37... it is a nice subtle cocktail you brew of WP:POV and WP:PA as well as a lack of WP:AGF.  Anyway if you would like to join the constructive editing of this article we would be more than happy to have you. --Rtrev 17:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why revert an edit and not just edit the edit (Barack Obama) 

message: I've added back the quote about Rush's views on drug addiction, where he clearly states that people who use drugs aught to be "convicted and sent up." I removed the reference to Bill Clinton, as it wasn't relevant, but the rest of it certainly is-- if Rush sought to be treated differently than he would have other drug addicts be treated, he's a hypocrit, and that's relevant to a biographical article about him. If anyone objects to it being in the section about his legal trouble, I'll be happy to write up a whole new section with a one-sentence lead in and a block quote, much like his views on homosexuality and abortion. Cheers! GertrudeTheTramp 12:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rush's Views on Drug Addiction 

message: I pulled the quote from MJF about not taking his meds before appearing at the Senate. His exacerbated symptoms on the ad is explained elsewhere, and Rush never commented on his performance before the Committee. The quote is irrelevant. The one from the doctor at the end probably is too, but someone else can take care of that. GertrudeTheTramp 12:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  M.J. Fox and Parkinson's