Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive4

message: ===Role call: Late July – August===
Sign your name below and comments are optional.
#Here for now although unable to put in work for awhile. SorryGuy 19:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Community

message: Sign your name below and comments are optional.
#Here for now although unable to put in work for awhile. SorryGuy 19:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Role call: Late July &ndash; August

message: A classic of "in-universe" style is Smaug. The key point that Smaug is a character in The Hobbit is not given!! There is only a throwaway sentence at the end: "In the 1977 animated version of The Hobbit, Smaug was voiced by Richard Boone." Similarly, Ancalagon fails to mention that this dragon appears in The Silmarillion, and ditto for Glaurung, though The Adventures of Tom Bombadil is named. I'm leaving these articles as they are for now, as classic examples of the need to avoid this sort of style. Carcharoth 13:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Smaug sems to be a reasonably short article, which might make an interesting example if someone wanted to convert it to out of universe, so we might all see what the difference is supposed to be. My difficulty with this debate, is exactly what difference in material there will be after it is changed. Admittedly, it does not make much mention that it is fiction, but suggesting that a reader would not understand it to be about fiction is rather insulting their ability to read the opening line. Leaving out the mention of which book it comes from is clearly a deficiency, but does not really say anything about its in or out universe general style. Sandpiper 12:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, I've made very minor alterations to this as an example, which in my mind improves the article far out of proportion to the words I actually changed.  Morwen - Talk 18:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Allow me to make a few more... Carcharoth 22:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I abandoned that because I found myself having to write stuff that was already at The Hobbit. This is part of the problem. A stand-alone article on Smaug would have to explain a lot. Having link to other articles helps solve this, but only to a certain extent. I'm torn between duplicating stuff between The Hobbit and here, and having this article redirect to a section on Smaug at The Hobbit (yes, I know you can't redirect to a section, but it would be nice). The basic problem is that when you have an article like Smaug and The Hobbit, the two articles can't be written independently. You need to get the balance right between them, so a reader of either one will feel comfortable moving back-and-forth between them. Carcharoth 22:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another example 

message: I stumbled across a new article: The Hobbit (1968 radio series). The article is really good, but it wasn't categorised. If you create a new article like this, can you please remember to categorise it. Thanks. Carcharoth 10:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article! 

message: See here for a relevant discussion on the fair use of movie screenshots as relating to Tolkien articles. Note that using movie posters is not acceptable other than on the article about the film itself. Carcharoth 10:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use of movie screenshots and posters 

message: I recently cobbled together a Tolkien timeline at: User:Carcharoth/Tolkien_timeline. Please add comments to the discussion page there (and here as well if you want). I would like to move this to article namespace, but need to wikify it first. I'm also unsure what would be a suitable title. Would Tolkien timeline be OK? Carcharoth 14:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tolkien timeline 

message: I would like to get some input on how we should spell Ñoldor in the Wikipedia. Should we keep using Ñoldor, which is apparently author's last intent but rare outside of academics, or use the more common Noldor everywhere?
Discussion at Talk:Ñoldor. -- Jordi·✆ 15:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ñoldor vs Noldor 

message: Would this page be useful somewhere? User:Carcharoth/Tolkien_spellings. Carcharoth 01:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been thinking that the standards have grown to the point that they should be separated out into sub-pages by topic. This list of standard spellings for accented names would make a good sub-page of its own. Might be worth adding commentary on some to explain why we chose a particular form as the standard if the spelling varied over time (such as when we settle the ongoing issue with 'Noldor') or to list common mis-spellings like 'Illuvatar'. --CBD 20:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, and someone who actually knows what the thingies are called (ie. not me) could write something about that as well, and that could eventually be suitable for main article space. I believe that this could clear up some of the confusion over pronunciation, etc. Carcharoth 10:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A starting point: tilde, umlaut (diacritic), accent marks (acute accent and grave accent), caret or circumflex, diaeresis (another name for an umlaut). All summarised at diacritic. There. Using Wikipedia I now know more than I did 5 minutes ago! Carcharoth 10:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spellings 

message: Is there a more appropriate place for this notice? (I thought this might be relevant for Middle-earth, since many of the articles included have spoiler warnings in them.) --GunnarRene 02:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is relevant to us. I'm going to have a look at the debate (I personally don't like overuse of spoiler tags). Carcharoth 09:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like overuse either. I see spoiler tags as something that lets me read as much as possible about a work of fiction, and if they cover too much they're less useful. --GunnarRene 14:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler warning RfC 

message: I found this interesting proposed guideline: Wikipedia:Notability (books). Obviously Tolkien's main works pass this with flying colours (not so sure about his minor works). But what about the books about Tolkien and his works. I think some of these have articles, and some are planned, but I think this proposed guideline would reject some of the books about Tolkien and his works. So what should we do? Should we draw the line somewhere ourselves, or wait until the rest of the Wikipedia community draw it for us?
Also, see Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Derivative articles for something that would theoretically reject a lot of the articles about characters from the books! Carcharoth 23:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the "Derivative articles" section as rejecting all of the Tolkien profiles. It does say that there is an exception for famous books. I would definitely consider Tolkien's major works famous books. So the character articles for characters in Tolkien's major books could probably be kept under the conditions of the passing of this guidline. --Merond e 08:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books notability guidelines 

message: Middle-earth is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 17:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Middle-earth]] 

message: I know this issue has been brought up before, but it was never quite resolved (or perhaps I missed it being resolved due to my extended absence).  The Tolkien infobox has been bothering me, and I thinking to get rid of the 'weapon' section — it really is an unnecessary field and more suited to the likes of RPG guides than an article.  I was also considering to get rid of some other fields, but I wanted to hear some input from the rest of the participants as well.  Thoughts? —Mirlen 20:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I kinda got the same impression myself when I first saw the Tolkien infobox. Let's see what others think. --Merond e 11:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Fine by me. --CBD 22:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Fine by me as well. Changing the subject completely, I'm going to be absent for a while, possibly a few weeks. I'll try to check in on the Middle-earth review process now and again. Carcharoth 09:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like it's a concensus, so I got rid of the weapon section — be back whenever you can, Carcharoth, no worries. —Mirlen 17:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I would suggest that the birth and death dates, if not known precisely, could say "First Age" or "Second Age" or "Third Age", or "Unknown", and leave details to the article. I'd describe Ainur as pre-Arda, or something, or just omit birth and death dates as meaningless. BTW, I didn't completely finish work on the categories - I think a few characters might have got left out. Also, I won't be away completely, I'll be able to pop in now and again. Carcharoth 08:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: Other fields to get either keep or drop (idea borrowed from Carcharoth):
image_character = Example.jpg| KEEP
image_caption = | KEEP
character_name =| KEEP
character_alias =| KEEP (For exceptions, see below)
character_title =| KEEP (For exceptions, see below)
character_race =| KEEP
character_culture =| KEEP
character_gender =| DROP
character_realm =| DROP (or only use if appropriate)
character_sub_realm = DROP (or only use if appropriate)
character_lifespan =| CHANGE (For proposal, see below)
character_weapon =| DROP  (see above comments)
character_actor =| DROP
character_voice =| DROP
Exceptions: I like CBD's idea of using the names/titles in the infoboxes for characters who do not have an extensive amount of names and titles, such as Maedhros.  For characters like Aragorn, I think a seperate section would do nicely, with a weeny little note in the infobox to see the seperate section.
Lifespan: I agree with Carcharoth on changing this to two seperate fields: 'Birth' and 'Death'.  Having a lifespan section means that we'd have to guess when the characters were born or killed, which is alright on a fansite, but not on an encyclopedia, where all information should generally be factual, not speculative.  Having 'Date of birth' and 'Date of death' fields would avoid speculation; therefore, a more ideal alternative.
Adaptations: I think the infobox should be kept literary.  Tolkien's legendarium was originally a work of literature, not a film, radio drama, etc.  My apologies to movie fans, but all information concerning the adaptations should be kept in its own section.
Adding a section?: Either way I don't really care, but I think adding a section in which it would indicate which book(s) a character appeared in isn't a bad idea.  I like having the categories as it is now, but perhaps having it more visible would be better.
Thoughts? —Mirlen 22:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest that the birth and death dates, if not known precisely, could say "First Age" or "Second Age" or "Third Age", or "Unknown", and leave details to the article. I'd describe Ainur as pre-Arda, or something, or just omit birth and death dates as meaningless. BTW, I didn't completely finish work on the categories - I think a few characters might have got left out. Also, I won't be away completely, I'll be able to pop in now and again. Carcharoth 08:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New syntax

message: See Carcharoth's notes on Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Disambiguation_hatnote. Would these be helpful? I basically cut The Lord of the Rings article in two:
*User:Uthanc/The Lord of the Rings
*User:Uthanc/Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings 
-- Uthanc 00:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me. Similar to how the individual volume titles are split between book and film pages. --CBD 01:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks great. —Mirlen 16:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've also added comments to the talk page at Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings. Carcharoth 12:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting the ''Lord of the Rings'' article 

message: In the past month or so Wikimedia Commons has adopted a new policy on derivative works. Apparently, under a strict interpretation of copyright law, any image which purports to represent anything from a copyrighted work of fiction is subject to that copyright. Thus, if you paint a picture of a gold ring it is your unique creation and you own it. If you paint a picture of a gold ring and call it the One Ring / include the inscription then it is a 'copy' of the original and technically owned by the Tolkien estate even though Tolkien never painted a similar image of the ring. If you have permission to make the copy then it is a 'derivative work' and you can sell that version or release it into the public domain without impacting the wider copyright of the original.
The outcome of this is that virtually every map used in every article about Middle-earth is currently being reviewed on Wikimedia Commons and they will almost certainly all be deleted. Along with various other Middle-earth images. The 'ring image' used on our project templates and userbox was already deleted. The same process is taking place with images from other fiction.
Before these images are deleted on Commons we could move them to Wikipedia images with the same names and then display them under 'fair use' criteria. Far from ideal, but the only other possibility would be to get permission from the Tolkien estate to create these new images portraying various things from the stories. Which might well be impossible, but would certainly take many weeks. --CBD 15:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OMG! Image armageddon is putting it mildly! Some suggestions, agreements: someone should contact the creator of the maps so they know what is going on; the maps should be safely saved somewhere; the maps could maybe, with the agreement of the creator, be donated to other projects (such as the Tolkien-specific wikis out there). For the future, should we link from the articles to such maps, or should we try something else? And what shall we use as a project image now Gollum (aka Wikimedia Commons) has jumped with the "ring image" into the fires of a doubtlessly derivative Mount Doom? Carcharoth 22:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yup, those would be the ones. The person who created most of them is already aware and I have asked him what he thinks about moving these here to Wikipedia as 'fair use' under the same names. We can have pretty much anything as 'fair use' in articles... it is things we want to use anywhere else that run into trouble. Though, some people object to 'fair use' in articles (especially featured articles) too. There are very few images which we will be able to include in templates or display on the portal. For the project image I would suggest coming up with a unique symbol that 'feels Middle-earthy', but does not purport to be any specific thing within Middle-earth. Tolkien created 'badges' for various houses/people - perhaps something similar for this group. Putting 'Wikiproject Middle-earth' in Tengwar on it might help with making it recognizably Tolkienesque. --CBD 11:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing I am confused about is whether this whole "derivative" thing covers redrawing maps? I was under the impression that redrawing things like maps yourself was a long-established way of exploiting some copyright loophole? Is this no longer possible? Carcharoth 18:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was under the same misapprehension (and may be where you got it from). Apparently the numerous examples of such things which are created, distributed, and even sold are technically covered under the original copyright... but many copyright holders routinely decline to assert their rights over such 'fan art'. Commons is taking the most restrictive view under the law and thus these images are no longer allowed even though there seems little chance of them ever being challenged by the copyright holders. This is a reasonable precaution though because technically a copyright holder owns any unlicensed 'copies'. --CBD 21:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that is what CBD covered above that Commons is no longer okay with that. Moving them over here and using fair use sounds good. As for what to use on our template now maybe there is some promotional material from the films featuring the ring? If so those could be used. Otherwise having someone create something that looked like a ring or something that looked like a Bag End door might work. SorryGuy 19:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with using film/promotional materials for templates is that Wikipedia policies do not allow 'fair use' images in templates... fair use requires that the image is being used to clarify an article on a related subject. Since templates can be used all over 'fair use' images are banned from the template namespace entirely. --CBD 21:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, next thing you know, we will be unable to use the names Middle-earth, Tolkien or Shire (the Tolkien Estate already tried with this last one). WikiProject Middangeard anyone? :-) Speaking of which, why isn't use of Tengwar (one of your suggestions) forbidden as a derivative use? Carcharoth 22:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, that 'Shire is copyrighted' bit was Tolkien Enterprises... which is completely unrelated to the Tolkien Estate. On the Tenwar inscriptions... for whatever reason writing systems/fonts cannot be copyrighted. Seems strange, but I've seen it on the Wikipedia copyright pages and the people on Commons said the same thing when explaining why the tengwar images there were just about the only things not being nuked. On the Middle-earth FA review... yeah, I've been swamped but keeping an eye on it. Will find some time to put in work. Also, User:Astrokey44 is talking about remaking all his 'regional maps' based on the more detailed map rather than just moving the existing ones over from Commons. Will all be 'fair use' regardless, but might as well be more specific fair use if that's the only option. --CBD 01:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image armageddon