Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine/Archive 2

message: I would like to invite you all to participate in a discussion at this thread regarding bilateral relations between two countries. All articles related to foreign relations between countries are now under the scope of WikiProject Foreign relations, a newly created project. We hope that the discussion will result in a more clean and organized way of explaining such relationships. Thank you. Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Bilateral relations discussion

message: Every article in the scope of this project requires disputed-status markers, if only for the highly disputed nature of the subject itself. Anyone else agree? Michael Safyan 23:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree. It should be done on a case-by-case basis, and only if there is really a dispute going on on the talk page. nadav 00:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In that case, perhaps the talk page deserves disputed status as well? Michael Safyan 03:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this a joke?  --Haemo 03:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: :Re-posted from Talk:Palestinian territories, as no response provided there yet
I am conscious of POV issues surrounding the name "Palestine", so I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but I would like to know what the best article link is for Wikipedia lists of nations etc.  I am asking here purely from an implementation perspective, as I have been doing a lot of work recently for Wikipedia:WikiProject Flag Template.  There are a lot of articles that contain lists of nations, dependencies, etc.  List of countries is perhaps the best example.  On those lists, there are flag icons followed by a wikilink to the main article for the nation.  (e.g. ).  What is the most appropriate article link to be used in conjunction with this region?  I have seen two articles widely used, namely   Palestinian territories and  Palestinian National Authority.  Use of the latter as the wikilinked article seems a bit odd to me, as it refers to the governing organization rather than the region, but perhaps for some NPOV reason, maybe it is the best choice.  I don't know - that's why I'm asking here.  Is there any consensus on what we should standardize upon for Wikipedia?  Andrwsc 18:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the the best article link for "country" references? 

message: Although I've been part of Wikipedia since almost day one, I am not a very active contributor. Especially, I am not familiar with the increasingly byzantine systems and conventions that Wikipedia seems to operate according to these days.
It seems to me that a good way to get people involved in this project would be to go onto user pages of people who make a lot of Palestine-related edits and invite them to join (maybe with a nice user box, which one of  us should createI would but can't figure out how). Is this considered OK Wikipedia etiquette or not? If it's OK, I will start. Asa 08:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recruitment for this project 

message: Hi I've recently helped construct the article of Deir el-Balah, it is still quite small but I want to know whether it is considered a stub or not. I also need to know if this site - http://www.palestineremembered.com/ is a reliable source for destroyed villages and towns articles.
Thanks, User: Al Ameer son 4:14 May 8 2007
Dear Al Ameer son. PalestineRemembered is a reliable source. You can read about the sources they have used to compile the tables in more detail here: . There are some editors who might try to dispute your right to use it as a source, but that is based on a faulty interpretation of WP:RS or WP:ATT, often (quite unfortunately) influenced by a strong opposing POV. I did look at the article and think it could still use some expansion. In my mind, the line between a stub and a start level article is hard to place definitively. It's a great start though. Good work! Tiamut 20:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PalestineRemembered can be helpful as it presents certain sourced information in an accessible manner. If and when information on the website is attributed to Morris or Khalidi (or whoever), then there is no reason not to cite the actual source. If information is not attributed to a such an RS, then I'm sure you would agree that it shouldn't be cited. TewfikTalk 00:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Read the link provided Tewfik. The sources and what they are used for is listed there. The tables provided are aggregate charts based on those sources as specified. They are all reliable sources. Tiamut 00:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did read the link, and my comments were specifically directed to what you said. To rephrase, for information sourced to RS, we should attribute the RS directly. For information not sourced to RS, we should obviously not include it. TewfikTalk 02:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly is not a reliable source there Tewfik? Tiamut 02:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is happening, but all I said is that any RS cited by it can be cited directly. If there is information not cited to RS, then we wouldn't reference it whether it appears here or anywhere else... TewfikTalk 02:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The misunderstanding is that the link I gave you very clearly states that it does not cite the specific source out of those listed for each item of information. This would make it very difficult to locate the originals for every piece of information, unless we have copies of all the books they use. Is there a particular source amongst those listed that you have a problem with because they all seem to be reliable sources to me. Tiamut 03:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I understand that, but we can't treat everything on this personal website as sourced without the ability to check the specific bits of information. I agree that it is a resource inasmuch as it can direct further research into these sources, but it shouldn't be used directly unless it modifies its policy and tells us what information can be found where. TewfikTalk 06:08, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree this could be "stub" or "start". I have added a little more material. Additional information on the interesting archaeological sites in this area would be a boon. With regard to depopulated villages I have two of the main academic works "All That Remains" and "Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problems Revisited" and can help with references. --Ian Pitchford 21:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a History section. It's by no means comprehensive but it's what available to me from the book cited. Those with other sources are encouraged to add more. Tiamut 21:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deir al-Balah stub 

message: Why not a template that brings together all the Palestinian refugee topics including the full listing of camps organized by region?  It seems like a logical thing to "template-ize".  --Abnn 21:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a great idea. What template design do you think would be good for that? We already have Template:Palestinians but it might be good for that to link to lots of different template on sub-categories, like a template of the camps, template for destroyed villages, etc, etc. Tiamut 22:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems like the most logical way to go about things.  Also, we really need pictures for these refugee camps and destroyed villages, in fact there is an overall dearth of photos in most Palestine related articles.  We need to find someone who recently took a vacation over there and upload their photos or  find someone who is planning to take a trip and have them take a lot of photos of these places.  Does anyone know anyone associated with the UN refugee association that operates in this area?  They might have some photos we could use.  We literally could use a hundred or more photos.  --Abnn 22:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: List of Palestinian refugee camps has some good information to start, but it's not comprehensive. I know there are about 20 more camps in addition to the 12 listed for Lebanon for example. I'll try to update that page before we get the template going, because if we dealing with a huge number, a template might not be the way to go. (My suggestion for the destroyed villages might be impossible to incorporate in a template for example.) About pictures, I'll see what I can do. I know I have a few of Nazareth, but I'll check what else I can scrounge up too. Tiamut 22:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Template:Palestinian refugee camps.  I just copied another template.  I'm not totally happy with the organization, but it will due for now.  --Abnn 01:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palestinian refugees & refugee camps template? 

message: The project page should be almost static and the section for articles needing attention is redundant to :Wikipedia:Notice board for Palestine-related topics. The effort should not be split between two pages. --Shuki 22:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True but the current arrangement is relatively harmless.  Lots of crud on the other page that needs to be cleaned up and archived, but there is no rush.  --Abnn 23:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've archived the majority of the material.  I incorporated a lot of the material into other pages where appropriate.  It's probably easier to transition to the noticeboard now than it was before.  I haven't yet moved the stuff from the project page over to the notice board where it belongs.  --Abnn 23:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I also removed from the noticeboard the list of contributors to the Palestine topic area.  I was thinking of adding them to the project member list but that isn't really accurate.  Thus instead I sent all the contributors listed on the noticeboard who have recently been active invites to the project.  --Abnn 01:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles needing attention 

message: I think they are pretty decent.  Although maybe some light contextual information in the maps would be useful, such as were is Israel, Jordan, and Egypt as well as the Mediterranean and Dead seas.
	
--Abnn 17:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Final products