Talk:Absinthe/Archive 2

message: This article seems to me fairly biased. It might as well be avertisment for a substance that is still illegal in quite a few countries.
The opening section even says "Even though it was vilified, no evidence shows it to be any more dangerous than ordinary alcohol." .. erm how is that NPOV in an article about a prohibited substance even if you have some link on the web stating the same ? How come there are more modern regulations against it ? 
Obviously there is/must've been evidence even if obviously contested by supporters.
Even the "controversy" section dosen't seem to contain information from both sides. --Helixdq 15:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not POV if it's true. There's not necessarily evidence to support the idea of a health risk; sometimes things just get banned for social or religious reasons, like alcohol in general during prohibition. But if you have other information from reliable sources that says differently, you're free to present it. You may want to discuss changes here first, since this is a featured article. Kafziel Talk 15:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Um, I would suggest reading the article first.  You will see absinthe is not illegal in most countries. The articles gives some basic explanations but doesn't go into detail (for length reasons) of the ban.  There has never been any valid evidence saying absinthe should be treated any differently than alcohol.  It was banned because of poor science, a growing prohibitionist movement, public fear and wine lobbyists seeing it as a danger to their profits.  Some of the science against absinthe focused on concentrated wormwood oil and assumed that the drink would produce similar effects.  The same scientist then studied alcoholics, where he claimed absinthe caused them to immediately hallucinate and convulse, something we know is not true, and he believed the damage it caused would be passed down to the Man's children degenerating the superior french race. -- Ari 16:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: Quoting: Besides being unpleasant to drink and a pale impression of authentic distilled absinthe
This section is way too POv-oriented, in my opinion. It either needs to be changed or sourced. (|-- UlTiMuS 21:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What would you propose as a change?  Absinthe kits which have the buyer soak packets of herbs in vodka or everclear are unpleasant to drink because it leaches all the horrible flavors into the alcohol including the extremely bitter chemicals in grand wormwood and is a pale impression of distilled absinthe because of that.  Beyond that it's normally ground up low quality herbs.  One quick source WS FAQ -- Ari 22:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I can see how the wording can giving a POV impression although what it actually states is true. If "gin kits" were being sold where the buyer soaks juniper in vodka to make "gin" I don't think a "gin kits" section in the gin article would be all that different. The same with steeping grain and charcoal in vodka to make whiskey. Or adding agave to vodka and calling it tequila. The wording could stand to be cleaned up a little bit to be more academic but the idea should stay. -- Peridotmetal 00:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I made my own Southern Comfort once. It wouldn't be POV to say it was "unpleasant to drink"; it would be a simple fact. Kafziel Talk 01:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I should clarify that what I specifically think sounds POV is the phrase "a pale impression." Absinthe made from kits certainly is a pale impression of real absinthe but the wording seems conversational and hostile. It might be more appropriate to say something along the lines of, "Besides being extremely bitter and having little in common with the flavour profile of authentic, distilled absinthe..." -- Peridotmetal 03:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah I am sure its a fact that your Southern Comfort was unpleasant, but you couldn't put that on Wikipedia without a source. Same here.137.138.46.155 11:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I reduced some POV words and added a source.  Although I'm not sure the source is needed. -- Ari 06:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV section

message: I made a correction to the historical legal status of Absinthe in Australia. Absinthe was never illegal, as wormwood was only a restricted (not a prohibited) herb under Food Standard 1.4.4. The movement in December 2000 was to shift it from restricted to prohibited - which was averted. The need for an import permit also has nothing to do with "Absinthe" per se, but because "oil of wormwood" is a restricted import under Schedule 8 of the Customs (Prohibited Imports) Regulations. Jonathan carfax 02:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are going to need a source to claim such an item.  24.16.41.151 01:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Not to mention that "Absinthe containing wormwood" is redundant, and it suggests that somewhere there's absinthe that doesn't contain wormwood, which is of course not true. Peridotmetal 07:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

text: While I didn't put that entry in, the postal service thing would be true from an international postage perspective unless one has the import permit (from personal experience) - mail within the country would be permissible. Customs is tricky - the import permit would legally still be required for personal importation through customs into Australia, though I don't know how well that is enforced - but this is contrasted to the correct observation that it is available in international duty free. Jonathan carfax 04:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Absinthe in Australia 

message: As I understand the terms, steeping with a cold liquid is a maceration, and steeping with a warm or hot liquid is an infusion.  And, again as I understand it, both the first and the coloring ‘macerations’ are done with a hot (or at least warm) liquid.  So shouldn’t they be referred to as ‘infusions’ not ‘macerations’?
Scaper8 23:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's simply not correct. Maceration (like steeping) can be done at any temperature. Kafziel Talk 14:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, my mistake.Scaper8 19:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maceration? 

message: Talking about spam, what about stuff that is clearly not matter for Wikipedia? There appears to actually be a whole page for La Fée Absinthe, clearly simply listing one particular brand of absinthe with a message fashioned after statements from the distributor, with little content and direct links to the commercial site. It even manages to score highly on Google searches for absinthe and Wikipedia...
How are pollutions of the Wikipedia space on separate pages to be handled? Who moderates pages like that?
Alexis Cousein 72.254.31.92 04:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done some editing, removing marketing words, on that page but it needs help.   There are other brand/company pages on wikipedia and it was suggested brands should be added just like any other alcoholic beverage.  A good idea but so far the only brands added are those who an editor work/ed for.  It would be nice if a LaFee/BBH history could be added as well as other companies.  -- Ari 05:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  La Fée Absinthe 

message: This website has been dropped from this absinthe wiki page in the past.  There is not any new information there that isn't in the other links.  At best it is redundant, at worst it is spam.24.16.25.69 18:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have yet to go through it and check although the english section does seem quite small compared to other listed sites.  It should be noted ag.de is not the same as the absintheguide mentioned previously on this talk page. -- Ari 18:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AG.de 

message: The Absinthe effects section is full of contradictions. It states absinthe has hallucinogen effects and then it states that it doesn't. Youlookadopted 00:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section says that it was thought to be hallucinogenic but isn't.  Can you post the sections you see as unclear or contradictory? -- Ari 00:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Absinthe Effects section 

message: "There is a small number of people that feel that santonin (another chemical that is believed to be in absinthe), not the thujone is to blame for the supposed effects, although there is no evidence to support this."
Then why is this in the article? There needs to be a source for this. The main article on santonin says that it is in absinthe (not that it's believed to be in it) but it also gives no source. Can anyone explain this? A "small number of people" believing something is not sufficient for it to be in the article. Peridotmetal 20:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It probably can be removed.  I know of no solid test showing santonin in absinthe or in what amounts.  The main articles I've read about it are from a professor suggesting it is Santonin in absinthe and not thujone (as Arnold claims) that made Van Gogh paint more to the yellow side and/or go crazy.  Unsourced of course. -- Ari 20:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm removing it. If anyone has a source it can be put back in. Peridotmetal 20:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Santonin 

message: this comment was posted on the absinthe in popular culture talk page, but it dosn't look like it got much notice so i'm putting it here too.
I found an article on absinthe that says that Romulan Ale (from Star Trek) is based on absinthe:
“You have Romulan ale!” he shouted.
“S’cuse me?” I replied.
“In Star Trek, the Romulans drink a green liquor that’s illegal everywhere else in the galaxy. It’s based on absinthe.”
 
It is from this article: .
Every time I’ve seen it on the show it’s been blue, not green, as quoted in the article, but if someone can find a more reliable source to verify this, I think it would make a good addition.Scaper8 19:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, the article is written by someone who demonstrates absolute ignorance about absinthe in almost every way. It's full of misinformation contradicted by this absinthe article and its sources. Second, the suggestion that Romulan Ale is based on absinthe doesn't appear to come from any expert on absinthe or scholar of Star Trek. It comes from a friend of the author. This is pure conjecture. Third, ale is a fermented beverage, not a distilled one like absinthe. Fourth, as you point out yourself, Romulan Ale is blue, not green. If there were some sort of documentation of a creator of the show saying the idea of Romulan Ale was inspired by absinthe it might be okay to put it on the absinthe in popular culture page, although even that is dubious since the final concept is drastically different from absinthe. Peridotmetal 23:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Absinthe in Star Trek 

message: From what I understand Customs doesn't make any laws itself but enforces those made by other organizations.  In which case regulations that don't match regulation from the FDA would be contrary to what they are supposed to be enforcing. -- Ari 19:09, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Customs 

message: Raffles The Plaza Hotel in Singapore is currently running an absinthe promotion, so it seems rather unlikely to be illegal here.  I've asked Singapore Customs for a clarification. Jpatokal 06:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mail from Tuang Hong TAN, Deputy Head of the Import Control Branch, Food Control Division, Agri-Food & Veterinary Authority (AVA) of Singapore: AVA allows consumers/travellers to bring in alcoholic beverages including absinthe for personal consumption so long as the products do not contain meat, and  the items' total value is not more than S$100 and not exceeding 5 kg. Jpatokal 09:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: There's an Absinthe Bar  in Sg that sells a couple of bottles of the stuff every night, so no, there's nothing prohibiting commercial imports. Jpatokal 14:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Singapore and Norway

message: It seems a new invention/fad has become de riguer among enthusiasts, how about including a reference to it? - Danzarrella
:Might go well on either the Absinthiana page or the Absinthe in popular culture page. -- Ari 18:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: as an external link or an addition to the article itself? - Danzarrella
Mr. USB Spoon Man: I don't think the spoon deserves to be on any of the absinthe pages until we know it exists. I'm a vendor who might buy several hundred spoons but you haven't replied to an email I sent you several weeks ago via your home page, and I don't know anyone who has yet seen a spoon. Alanmoss 10:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: USB Absinthe Spoon

message: The current article says in the 'Regulations' section "[c]urrently, most countries do not have a legal definition of absinthe."  I was under the impression that no countries had a legal definition, has this changed?
Switzerland does: absinthe must be distilled; it cannot contain artificial colourings. Alanmoss 13:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that just for one being made in Switzerland or ones sold too? Scaper8 00:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal Definition? 

message: So where can you buy it? Online. The real deal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 158.36.174.172 (talk) 09:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  buy it? 

message: This quote from Oscar Wilde about absinthe might make a good addition to the article:
The first stage is like ordinary drinking, the second when you begin to see monstrous and cruel things, but if you can persevere you will enter in upon the third stage where you see things that you want to see, wonderful curious things.
Λυδαcιτγ‽ 03:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although it is a good quote, it has no special importance to absinthe.  There are literally hundreds of good absinthe quotes; they just can't all go here.  My personal favorite (also by Wilde):
After the first glass you see things as you wish they were. After the second, you see things as they are not. Finally you see things as they really are, and that is the most horrible thing in the world.
 Scaper8 02:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oscar Wilde quote 

message: I know this is the English article's talk page, but I know there are knowledgeable people here. I was wondering if there were any native Spanish speakers here who wouldn't mind taking a look at the absenta article and discussion. I have changed the image in the past (if you visit the link you'll understand why) only to have it reverted quickly. I am out of practice in my Spanish speaking and writing to make modifications and write captions and be completely certain that the grammar is acceptable. Thestandarddeviant 13:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately my spanish is much worse that yours.  The top image is quite out of place (a dropper bottle gimmick of a specific brand from france doesn't seem to fit).  The 'gem' is accurate in the sense that gimmick products do exist, of course if any of these brands lack a main anise flavor they aren't absinthe and belong somewhere else. -- Ari 21:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologise; it was the second part I meant to draw more attention to. It says it is not advised to drink absinthe on one's own because many of the herbs employed in the production are poisonous in large concentrations. Thestandarddeviant 23:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What the sentence actually says is that you shouldn't drink absinth without mixing it [with water, other sort of drinks, etc..].80.28.202.37 09:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spanish Wikipedia Article 

message: Both this page and the page on thujone express the forceful opinion that absinthe is believed to cause hallucinations, then repudiates that supposed popular myth. I had never heard absinthe was hallucinatory, and a cursory internet web search for the words absinthe and hallucinations proves that that is not widely thought.
It is mind-altering, in a different way than spirits. These articles suggest that absinthe is just the same as ouzo. It would be more informative to state that thujone IS a drug.
Kapuchinski 03:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hopefully the reason for that search is because minds have been changed.  The idea that absinthe and/or wormwood is a hallucinogen was common (do a search on absinthe,hallucinogen and you can see some of those claims).  It can still be found on some vendor sites, drug sites, and general misconception about the drink.  Thujone is a "drug" as much as Anethole is a "drug" and it's not a very effective recreational one, so why should it be stated? -- Ari 03:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hallucinations? 

message: The absinthe page claimes that Artemisia pontica is Roman Wormwood, but the Roman Wormwood disambiguation page indicates the following two species Ambrosia artemisiifolia and Corydalis sempervirens Autkm 03:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be "Artemisia pontica" which is often called either Petite wormwood or Roman wormwood.  Although I'm not sure if the term "roman wormwood" is used for other species as well, sometimes the same common name gets used for different species or genus of plants. -- Ari 16:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman Wormwood 

message: Although the article states absinthe is a 'high proof spirit,' it does not state the exact number.
Is this because it has a variable proof? Or did someone just leave it out on accident?
--//Blake D. Hawkins 16:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's mentioned later in the article.  Pre-ban absinthe varied from 45% to 74% and modern from 45% to 89%.  Although when prepared most brands end up around the same percentage. -- Ari 16:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof 

message: The absinthe article was down for a minute or two; I was removing some abusive edit summaries from the page history, and of course Wikipedia would choose that moment to lock the damned servers before I could restore the page. But it's back up now, sans offensive edits, with my apologies. Kafziel Talk 20:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry 

message: I have re-added the edited/adjusted bohemian style section as there were apparently no complaints to it from OTRS in the 3 weeks I was gone.  It's not finished (see notes at Playground scratch page ) however I thought there was no reason it couldn't be edited on the main absinthe page. -- Ari 14:06, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bohemian style re-added 

message: I've removed the following.
I beleive the ban on absinthe has been recently lifted according to the new york post
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06172007/entertainment/food/green_scene__food_andrea_strong.htm
What we want to know is whether it is or isn't banned not what X believes. Jɪmp 15:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed 

message: yes, but what is the darned stuff made of?  Yes, we know it's flavored with wormwood, etc., but nowhere does it simply say what sort of alcohol is used.  Is it distilled from grain? From grapes? From potatoes?  As sometimes happenes with Wiki, a bit more basic information and a simple description of the thing is what is sometimes hardest to find.  NaySay 19:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll add to it to clarify.  A specific spirit isn't mentioned because a specific spirit was never used, the herbs are soaked in a high-proof alcohol and then distilled.  Some companies like Pernod fils used a high proof grape spirit (like Marc) because there was a belief grape spirits were healthier than neutral/grain spirits. -- Ari 20:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  yes, but....