Talk:Monsters of Final Fantasy

message: As of right now, it seems every entry is talking about a monster appearing in more than one Final Fantasy. It may have been like this without any kind of guideline or following the original author's intention to not overflow this list with non-relevant monsters. I don't think we'd need to talk about every tiny little monster that appeared, considering that the page is already too big. An alternative could be that, when it gets really too big, we could put sub-pages like Final Fantasy bestiary A-E or something like that, then we'd be able to include more monsters. But, maybe we should remove those entries which are already present in Races of Final Fantasy, they are only a copy and are not bestiary, for most of them, since they represent something against which there is never a fight. However, a monster like Tonberry could be kept, since it is part of a bestiary.
– DarkEvil 00:30, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
*Ah no, don't include something in one and ont include it in the other. Some races you do actually battle, and these deserve a mention in both articles. I agree about the A-E thing, because the article is expanding quite large, and I've already found a lot of monsters missing from the list. — CuaHL 02:37, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Woooooow, lots of indents...  BishopTutu 07:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What should be included 

message: Final Fantasy bestiary (A-M) was getting too big, so I've moved it to A-E, and created F-M. I've also created :Template:Final Fantasy bestiary for the bottom of each page, which can be expanded as the articles are expanded — CuaHL 15:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A-M split 

message: I'd just like to point out that there isn't a very clear distinction in many of the entries between the origin of the creature (mythology, folklore etc.) and its appearance and behaviour within Final Fantasy. For example;
The Coeurl is a fictional immortal alien predator which sustains itself by feeding upon the Id of other beings. Its resemblance is comparable to a panther or a leopard.
There's nothing saying whether that relates to the games themselves or not, or whether its just the origin of the name/beast. --Made2Fade 14:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Distinction

message: when i created this page months ago i was having fun looking up names and putting them in a list i used ffcompendium for most of my info that you guys took this little bit and are trying to create a real bestiary makes me happy i wish you all the goodluck and succes i rarely come here my self i am dutch and most of my wiki editing are done on the dutch wikipedia where i mostly work on mythology basque etruscan finish celtic but because you guys vomited new life into the ffbestiary i was planning on helping you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.24.65 (talk • contribs) 14:39, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You should! The editors need all the help they can get. We set up a project a while back (see WP:PJFF for information). I think it was DarkEvil who's taken this over.. I can't help out as much as I would have liked to anymore. — CuaHL 18:57, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  i am the creatore of this page 

message: As part of the fair use law, no more than 15 images from a collective work (meaning a single game like Final Fantasy I) should be used in one of our work, meaning an article for us and I count the Final Fantasy bestiary A-E and those as one major article, Final Fantasy bestiary. So, from A to Z, the maximum of images we can display for a single game is 15 images. Since there are more than 15 beasts in a single game, we can't put an image for each of them. I'd say, let's put an image for the 15 most important. Then again, choosing which is the most important can be discussed, and with time, this will probably change as new entries will be added. There are alternatives, like someone good at drawing could draw something based on the monsters which we don't put an image for and those images would not be fair use if they are creative enough to be distinguished from the original.--DarkEvil 19:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: "Non-sentient" really has nothing to do with at least half of the creatures listed--for example, just about all summoned creatures in the games are sentient at least (many are VERY intelligent, and only allow you to summon them after you manage to prove your strength to them), and there's a "Summon" section (as well as many others that wouldn't belong here if it was just for "non-sentient" beings).  Could somebody think up a better wording for that part of the page?
:But where do you draw the line?  No matter how it's phrased the delineation between Beastiary and Races is going to be arbitrary since the games do not organize them in that manner.  I do, however agree that sentience should not be a qualifier for this.  Perhaps we could do something like:
::"The following is a list of some of the creatures and monsters from the Final Fantasy series and the titles in which they appear. For a list of culturally developed races and beings, see the Races of Final Fantasy."
:But again, that leaves creatures that don't quite fit into either category.  I don't think rephrasing it will solve the problem because you have too many creatures that don't fit.  What makes the Qus of FFIX a race, and the Goblin a monster?  Judging by their equipment and clothing they are just about as technologically and culturally advanced as each other.  The are just as uncommon as each other (if anything, I would say Qus are more rare since you can count them on one hand), so population can't be an indicator.  Neither one of them have any impact on the global socio-economics of the worlds.  So what makes a Qu a race?  Is it only because we interact with them within the plotline, or that we have a party member who is a Qu?  That's hardly a logical reasoning to classify them as a Race and not an intelligent creature.  No matter how you slice it the delineation will be highly arbitrary for some creatures.  I think we should keep the phrasing simple, and assume the Reasonable person arguement. --Daedalus 19:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Non-sentient?" 

message: Why was this page moved to such a stupid title?  ⇒  JarlaxleArtemis 03:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, actually. The person responsible for the move cited a discussion regarding the Zelda series, which is not directly applicable here, and dealt in large part with the aesthetics of having an article ("the") at the beginning of the article/category title. As it happens, this was discussed by the Final Fantasy WikiProject ages ago, and the consensus was we disambiguate individual games not the overall series: in other words, the article on the main series is located at Final Fantasy, not "Final Fantasy series," and the article on the first game therein is at Final Fantasy (video game), not "Final Fantasy." In any case, the discussion concerned an entirely different set of articles, and because of its limited scope cannot be reasonably interpreted as binding policy or consensus on non-Zelda-related article. I'm going to see about reverting the change. – – Sean Daugherty (talk) 04:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: I felt enough progress had been made to warrent an official move. Now, all we need to do is copyedit, reference, and expand the history a bit (and maybe make some inclusions/omissions). Also, about the images...I feel that, since these are the most common creatures, we should limit each section to one image of the creature. That'll really help us win the fair use battle. — Deckiller 00:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't this page be titled "Monsters of Final Fantasy" or something like that? "Creatures" implies that the races of Final Fantasy are also included, but they aren't for some reason which would appear arbitrary to most people. Kariteh 11:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The naming was based on the category of FF creatures; this page also contains a section for chocobos. Perhaps a link to the races page in the lead section will help clear up confusion? — Deckiller 12:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Monster is such a connotative term.  "Creature", on the other hand, does not have any connotation other than "not a race". --Daedalus 16:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the connotation is that these entities are what the player fights in the different games of the series. "Creature" definitely doesn't imply "not a race." Kariteh 21:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's not necessarily the case.  You don't battle cactuars in FFX2, you don't fight Chocobos in FFVIII or FFIX, some creatures in FFIX are non-hostile, etc.  Monster connotates an unnatural aberration that should be destroyed, which is not necessarily the case in FF.  Creature connotates any living thing and some things that resemble living things, which is most certainly the case.  Are you to say that a Chocobo is a monster?  The games don't even consider them monsters so why should we? --Daedalus 23:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's definitely the connotation intended. What FFIX creatures are you referring to? Currently, the FFIX creatures that appear in this article are all monsters encountered in battles, no Oglops or things like that. You fight Chocobos in FFT and FFXII (and perhaps FFXI, I'm not sure about this one). They are definitely considered monsters in FFT, and they appear in the Clan Primer (monster catalogue) in FFXII once you killed some. You encounter them in battle in FFVII too, although they run away before you can kill them. I think the term "creature" is too broad because one would think the races of the series would appear in the article too, but they don't. Moogles for instance can be considered both "creatures" and "race", but they can't be considered "monsters", so that's why they appear in the Races article. Chocobos can be considered both "creatures" and "monsters", but not really "race", but they appear on this Creatures article whose definition is too broad. Kariteh 10:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But that's exactly the point.  Monster is too specific, and creature was chosen so that it could be broader.  And some of these creatures are most certainly NOT unnatural abberations that must be destroyed, else Chocobo doesn't belong on the list.  The list here is to denote iconic figures of the series, not to create a beastiary, and not to be a list of things that you fight per se.  Perhaps Chocobos are fought in some games, but that is an auxillary use of them, their primary use in the series is to be a mode of transportation replacing horses to give the game a more unique and exotic element.  The creatures I'm referring to in FFIX are the Pop Quiz's, Ladybug, Yeti, etc.  Most of them are pretty much palette swaps of existing monsters that you fight, but they serve a very different purpose.  I do see your point about moogles, but they were first introduced as an intelligent and developed race and have become more so in succeeding games, so they belong in races.  By the way, Races is going to go through a similar process and will be trimmed and consolidated as well to show only the most iconic races.  --Daedalus 17:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creatures of Final Fantasy 

message: I used http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/monster.shtml as a reference:
* Abaddon/Abadon appears in VIII, IX, X, Crystal Chronicles.
* Adamantoise appear in all numbered titles except FFI, and also in Mystic Quest.
* Bandersnatch appears in V, VII, IX, X, XI.
* Death Claw appears in III, V, VII, VIII, XII.
* Hecteyes appear in II, V, VII, IX, XI, XII.
* Minotaur/Sekhmet/Brothers appears in I (Dawn of Souls), III, V, VIII, XI, Tactics, Mystic Quest.
* Mu appears in VI, VII, IX, XII, Crystal Chronicles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kariteh (talk • contribs) 15:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creatures that could be added (?) 

message: I think the link for a FFXI bestiary is a bad choice. It is very outdated, and barely used at all. How about FFXIclopedia's bestiary? --Jopasopa 00:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FFXI Bestiary 

message: Once I'm done with the character class sourcing (which is going to take some time; I have no sources for III, Tactics Advance, and a few other claims in the article), I'm going to move on to here. Here's the problem; I only have ONE reliable source available that will help us prove which monsters came from where and so on, and that's the XII official strategy guide. I need to know if people have the following official strategy guides:
* Final Fantasy Origins (or I and II advance, whatever it's called)
* Final Fantasy III Advance
* Final Fantasy IV/Chronicles
* Final Fantasy V/VI/Advanced/Anthology
* Final Fantasy VII
* Final Fantasy VIII
* Final Fantasy IX
* Final Fantasy X
* Final Fantasy X-2
* Final Fantasy XI
* Final Fantasy Tactics 
* FFT Advanced
* and so on...
Otherwise, this page will already be in dire straits w/o reliable sources. — Deckiller 12:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are great. If you can find page numbers and whatnot, it would be absolutely excellent. The same goes to X-2 and the character class article. If we can get the X-2 sourcing finished for FFX-2 tonight, we can probably go for GA pretty soon for that article. — Deckiller 22:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing 

message: I'm worried that we won't be able to find sources such as where monsters got their origins; in other words, people might read it as light original research. I feel we have no choice but to keep it in, because otherwise, the article lacks necessary depth. I think it's a necessary burdon, and it may hinder this article from getting GA, but at least it will be of decent quality nonetheless. — Deckiller 10:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found some hits for Final Fantasy mythology, but I'm a little reluctant to use this one: . I'm not sure if it'll be considered "reliable enough". — Deckiller 10:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Are thesises supposed to be reliable sources? There are 2 listed as references in this article. Kariteh 18:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can we extrapolate the references that the thesis uses?  Those would almost assuredly be RSs, I'm not sure about the thesis itself.  --Daedalus 20:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: This article and OR

message: What's the point of having a section on reception and criticism and having the stub template on it?
I would remove it myself, but it appears as if Kariteh wants it there. Could someone explain what the importance is with that blank section? Rafa 03:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fiction articles must take an out of universe perspective. When we get around to it, we are going to pull out the reviews of the games and add information on how the class system(s) have been received. — Deckiller 03:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the point of this blank section is to remind the project and potential contributors that the section is needed. Potential contributors would not have the idea to create that section if there was nothing to tell them that they should. Kariteh 09:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, a stub with obvious growth potential is better than nothing and hoping that we remember to add it later.  --—ΔαίδαλοςΣΣ 18:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reception and criticism 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Ff9-tonberry.jpg

message: DISCLOSURE: I am a regular user at the Final Fantasy Wiki (under the name Mymindislost, if anyone wants to know). That being said, the FFXII bestiary over there is a lot more comprehensive than the one linked to in this article. The FFWiki XII enemies category has the bestiary entries from the game, like the site currently linked to, but it also has stats, steals, drops, etc. I should know, since I did a lot of the work on it myself. I didn't want to just change the link without some kind of acknowledgment/permission and run the risk of it being changed if someone thought I was just "advertising" or something. I'm going to go ahead and change it based on this rationale. If it gets reverted, I can't say I'll understand, but I won't change it again. --129.120.84.83 03:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: MMIL, you really meant that you did a lot of the work on it with a lot of others, like me for example, didn't you? BTW, FFWiki links are welcomed here. — Blue。 11:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, yes, Blue. Your help is greatly appreciated on those articles. It would have taken me so much longer to fill in all of those tables, and you did all of the rare game articles, as well. I didn't say I did ALL the work, just... a lot. :P --MMIL 19:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: =) Thanks MMIL. I love credit when it's due. — Blue。 19:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FFXII Bestiary link

message: :Image:Chimera FFX.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 02:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed, the image still refered to the FF bestiary page. --PresN 14:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Chimera FFX.jpg

message: :Image:GarudaFriendlyFFIX.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:GarudaFriendlyFFIX.png

message: :Image:Morbol Yellow.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Both of these fixed --PresN (talk) 21:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Morbol Yellow.jpg

message: :Image:Cockatrice FFXI.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Cockatrice FFXI.jpg

message: :Image:Couerl.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Couerl.jpg

message: :Image:Imp FFX.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Imp FFX.jpg

message: :Image:Iron Giant FFX.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Both Fixed. --PresN (talk) 00:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Iron Giant FFX.jpg

message: :1- Sign your posts. 2- despite your comment in the history, only 3a applies here- no free equivalent exists, and the images are used to visually represent the subjects, not as decoration. 3- WP:SOCK, there's no way that a 2-day old user has the knowledge of policies that User:CopyrightDrone does. --PresN (talk) 17:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong - #1 the images are replaceable by text (easy to describe an appearance of something, which the text actually does in some cases), which leads to #8 significance - does the reader's understanding depend on the images - no.  There have been multiple debates on nonfree images in lists, all of which have come to the consensus that they can't be used unless they pass all the criteria in NFCC. It is the same concept as album covers in discographies. CopyrightDrone (talk) 17:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: By your definition, no fair-use image is justified, as any picture can be described, given enough words.  Therefore, no #1, no #8.  Also, album covers aren't used in discography articles because the individual albums also have articles, which then use the images.  In the future, rather than creating a sockpuppet and wantonly deleting images/links to images, please put a message on the talk page first.  Even BetaCommandBot has enough courtesy to do that, as shown above. --PresN (talk) 21:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

text: If you can find a single image depicting multiple monsters, feel free to add it and remove some others, but don't remove everything like that. I know from past experience with the FFX articles that it can create a huge outcry. You seem to be very keen on the image policies, but you might need to read WP:3RR too. Kariteh (talk) 08:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: From WP:3RR - "The following edits are agreed to be unwanted and may be reverted without counting towards the 3RR ...  content violating the non-free content policy.". Yours, CopyrightDrone (talk) 17:50, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of Non-free images failing [[WP:NFCC]]