Talk:Mahmoud Darwish

message: So, at some point Darwish was a Palestinian citizen of Israel. Now he isn't. What happened? Am I correct in thinking that the Israeli state somehow revoked Darwish's citizenship? This is not a troll or an attempt to stir up a political controversy in the article. It's a real question which needs to be cleared up in this article.-jackbrown (talk) 06:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  nationality/citizenship 

message: According to the Guardian, kirjasto, sakakini (which he writes and edits) 1942.
His Website
Only according to Jpost and ha'aretz is it 1941?..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think Darwish himself had his own birth certificate (in 1948 his family fled to Lebanon and i think the certificate was lost). However, i have a book written in 1969 about Darwish by written by egyptian critic rajaa alnakkash. Anyhow, as i recall in this book the correct date was march 1941) i remember him mentioning why there was a mixup... i'll check the book and get back to you later. --Histolo2 (talk) 11:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Birth date

message: This is a site dedicated to him, if he was a pop star it would be considered "the unofficial fan site", most of its arabic content is taken from various articles published about darwish... there is not the Official site, i don't even consider it a reliable source.
BTW i removed the sources of his birth cause both sources states 1942 as his birth year not 1941 see above for the more discussion about it. --Histolo2 (talk) 14:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Darwish "official site" 

message: OK, lets forget the ID card discussion, its not important.
You base your claim on 2 things: 2 article from 2008, and the fact he was a member of maki/rakah. 
I brought 3 sources:
#An interview published in "zu haderech" in 1969 (before leaving Israel) where he says i'm still without a citizenship.
#Another interview much later (in 2002) where he says "i was a resident not a citizen".
#An article from 1971 (not available online so lets leave it for now)
Now, lets concentrate in the 1969 interview... it was published Darwish left Israel and it was in hebrew (directed to jewish readers) so he wasn't trying to "smudge" facts, i think this source alone is more reliable than your sources. (i urge you to read the relavent part, i've even put the hebrew text so you could search for it in the article.)
Believe me, i'm not trying to smudge facts, the whole thing started when a user on AR WP wrote in discussion that darwish might have held israeli citizenship and asked for help finding a source. I said (back then) that i think this was true. However, after searching for sources i came to a conclusion  he was not a citizen but rather a permanent resident.
I agree with you this needs more research, can you bring source about his citizenship from old israeli papers (for example from 1971, you seem to live in jerusalem so u have access to newspapers archives found in the national library).
anyhow, in my opinion according to the current sources it is more likely that he was a resident, the best source would be an official document but i don't see how can we get it. --Histolo2 (talk) 10:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: trying to summerize discussion

message: The matter is complex. His claim of having no citizenship, by the way, could very well be a "poetic" turn of phrase. I would certainly not take it at face value. His family living in the Galilee clearly has Israeli citizenship, as evidenced by the fact that family members required permits to enter Ramallah for the funeral. Here is a reference to his al-Ard affiliation. "In the mid-1960s he joined Al-Ard, an Arab nationalist movement founded by rebellious young Israeli Arab intellectuals devoted to the teachings of Gamel Nasser. The movement rejected the traditional Arab politics of the Communist party in favor of a more authentically nationalist politics. Israeli intelligence saw Al-Ard as a serious threat and when it put forward a list for the 1965 Knesset, the party was banned. The Shin Bet waged a war of persecution against Al-Ard, a campaign it continues to this day against similarly nationalist Israeli-Arab groups. Darwish was regularly imprisoned or placed under house arrest, experiences which also informed his poetry. Several members of the group, including the poet, eventually went into exile."(http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/14/israelandthepalestinians.poetry)
:*Al-ard membership: Its irrelavent to our discussion but i think the facts here aren't true... Darwish was a member of maki (and rakah after the 1965 split in maki) I remember reading he joined maki in 61, he worked in maki's newspapers... I have a book about him originally written in 1969 (i have the "updated" version of 1972) in that book it clearly states that Darwush was a member of maki, the book explains a bit about israeli arab politics and mentions al-ard but doesn't say anything about darwish being a member of al-ard. In the same book there is the text Darwish read in a press conference where he states that he is a member of rakah and he still believes in their ideology and his acts where unknown to the party's leadership (BTW his actions were criticized both in Israel and the arab world, rakah expelled him for this and it was then when the editorial -i keep mentioning- was published in al-itihad, in the editorial the tone is more delicate and it says though they understood his motivations, they can't agree with his actions). So there is no doubt he was a member of maki/rakah. The problem with the articles you brought is that they were written after his death by people who aren't exactly experts about his life so they might be wrong. I could bring more sources regarding this matter but since its not the subject of our discussion, i think this is enough.
:*Acoording to Maki's regulations  to be a member you have to be a resident above 18 of age.
:*Darwishes 1st interview is a bit poetic but when u look at his "non poetic" statement in the guardian and to the 1971 article from al-itihad i think I have a solid case.
:* Again our argument is which sources is more reliable, we both want to search for the truth... (just a couple of days ago i thought the same as you).. i suggest we don't mention this fact till we get clarification about this issue. --Histolo2 (talk) 12:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Membership in al-Ard

message: There is photo in commons :), im not good at wiki formatting ! http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:MahmoudDarwish.jpg  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.6.47.81 (talk) 12:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  photo of mahomoud darwish 

message: Please consider adding this external link to the entry on Darwish
* The Diary Junction Blog Pikle (talk) 10:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I hope I am writing my message in the right place!  I checked the translation of the poem "Identity Card" displayed in the entry.  It is different and not as good as the translation displayed in its Footnote (FN13). According to Wikipedia rules, translations should be previously published translations.  There are other published translations of this poem that are good perhaps even better!Aviva Butt (talk) 23:13, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Aviva, if you can improve the translation, please do! If you know of a better published translation, you can use it here, but be sure to include just enough of the translation to illustrate the idea or point you want. Because if you include too much, you'll be infringing on the rights of the original translator (not to mention those of the writer). Eitherway I think including large portions of poems in articles is unnecessary. This is also one of his first poems, what about all the other works? Darwish was a prolific writer, and so much was written about him, too. If you're interested, this article is waiting for someone to expand it, especially the literary aspect of it. Regards :) -- Orionist ★ talk 18:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to support the suggestion to include literary criticism on Darwish's language, topics and underlying influences. For example, there is a very interesting analysis of such aspects by his translator into Turkish, which could be used for such a paragraph. https://arablit.org/2020/07/28/mehmet-hakki-sucin-on-translating-mahmoud-darwish-into-turkish/
(Unfortunately, this is not one of my special interests, so I can't write it myself. Hope somebody will add some literary criticism soon. ;) Munfarid1 (talk) 10:37, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation of "Identity Card" 

message: Why was the category "Arabic poets" removed from this page? hgilbert (talk) 20:47, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: Modinyr, hgilbert has a valid point on the wording and remember the article is covered by sanctions. Here are some sources (including the Guardian source you both already have). Please can you both find a reasonable policy based compromise. I don't want to file an arbitration enforcement request to sort this out but I will if it is necessary to stop the back and forth. 
* NYT "During the war that led to Israel’s independence, Mr. Darwish and his family, from the Palestinian village of Al Barweh, left for Lebanon. The village was razed but the family sneaked back across the border into Israel, where Mr. Darwish spent his youth."
* The Guardian "Darwish was born in the village of Birwa, east of Acre. His parents were from middle-ranking peasant families. Both were preoccupied with work on their land and Mahmoud was effectively brought up by his grandfather. When he was six, Israeli armed forces assaulted the village and Mahmoud fled with his family to Lebanon, living first in Jezzin and then in Damour. When, the following year, the family returned to their occupied homeland, their village had been obliterated: two settlements had been erected on the land, and they settled in Deir al-Asad in Galilee."
* The National "Al Birwa, the village where Darwish spent his earliest years, exists today as little more than a memory - even if one immortalised in his poetry. Its buildings were razed by the Israeli army during the war of 1948 that established the state of Israel by sending 750,000 Palestinians into exile."
* New Statesman "During the 1948 war, the seven-year-old Darwish and his family had been driven from his birthplace, the village of al-Birwa. Birwa has long been forgotten by the rest of the world. Like more than 400 other Palestinian communities, it was destroyed by the Israeli army to prevent its inhabitants from returning to their homes inside the new Jewish state."
* Frontline magazine from The Hindu "Darwish was born in 1941 in the Birwa village east of Acre to parents who were middle-range peasants. He was brought up by his grandfather as his parents were busy on their land. He was six when Israel attacked his village and he had to flee to Lebanon with his family. They came back later only to find the village obliterated. So they settled in Galilee."
* Haaretz "Darwish was born in the village of al-Birwa, which was located east of Acre and destroyed in 1948."
Sean.hoyland - talk 07:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you; these sources are very helpful. hgilbert (talk) 10:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

text: See WP:Verifiability, which opens with "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source" -- two sources clearly support this exactly, more sources back it up as well. These are facts -- not emotions -- your reactions to them are personal though understandable; I also have great sympathy for someone whose village was obliterated or destroyed. hgilbert (talk) 21:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

text: There's a serious newspaper (The National) and a serious magazine (The New Statesman), both of which support the statement as it stands. I'm curious what you think happened -- rabbits came and destroyed the buildings? hgilbert (talk) 02:02, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Interestingly, Ben-Gurion himself said that the villagers couldn't return because the village had been destroyed. I just added it to al-Birwa. Zerotalk 11:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

text: And The National is a perfectly fine source, if you wish to challenge it please go to WP:RS/N. It very obviously meets the requirements of WP:RS being a major news organization. nableezy - 14:17, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

text: If you would like to challenge The National please go to WP:RS/N, though you may find that your view does not get the expected response. Additionally, you are ignoring every other source brought so far. You dont get to decide which sources cannot be used, we have guidelines for that sort of thing. As a major newspaper The National is on its face a reliable source, though of course each use of it may be discussed (as with any other source). However, edit-warring to remove the fact that al-Birwa was destroyed is not an acceptable course of action. nableezy - 23:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Really? Baseless accusations? Really? Since you first removed "expelled" on 6 October, you have made 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 reverts over the same or similar material. You reverted on October 12, 15, 17, 18, and 20. A 1 revert rule does not entitle you to one revert per day, each day, and slow motion edit warring remains edit warring. If you continue to edit-war over this material instead of gaining consensus for your change you will likely see either another block or a topic ban. You are right, this is not a battle, so stop using the undo button as a weapon and start actually addressing the fact that several sources say al-Birwa was destroyed after it was depopulated. And again, if you would like to challenge one of the six sources at the top of the section you can do that at WP:RS/N. Just repeating the mantra that any news organization from the UAE is unreliable is not going to cut it. nableezy - 23:17, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

text: But it was obliterated, Ben-Ze'ev, Efrat (2011) Remembering Palestine in 1948: Beyond National Narratives Cambridge University Press  pp25 The Last Angry Man (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Another one Baramki Azar, George (1992) Palestine: a photographic journey University of California Press  pp125 The Last Angry Man (talk) 17:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: And I've added another one that specifies that the village was "razed by the Israeli army" (Encyclopedia of the Palestianians, published by Facts on File). I've also included both terms used in the sources, razed and destroyed, just to ensure that we preserve an NPOV voice. (It wouldn't be fair to preference one of these terms over the other.) hgilbert (talk) 20:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

text: The two sources I presented above are both from the academic press, and they say quite clearly that the town was razed by the IDF, please stop removing this reliably sourced content. The Last Angry Man (talk) 22:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

text: I would like to think that the IDF razed the buildings in order to put up significantly improved housing for the inhabitants, but that changes in their funding structure made this no longer possible. Nevertheless, since we have no sources to back this up, but only a source that says that it was done to prevent the inhabitants from returning (improbable as this seems), we'll have to go with the available source. hgilbert (talk) 23:21, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit warring over Birwa

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Mahmoud Darwish. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080818143255/http://www.haaretz.com:80/hasen/spages/1011812.html to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011812.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070823064101/http://www.marcelkhalife.com/httpdocs/audio/yusif.mp3 to http://www.marcelkhalife.com/httpdocs/audio/yusif.mp3
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 11:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Mahmoud Darwish. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1019886.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060529235144/http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/darwish.htm to http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/darwish.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130326135534/http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/833/pe1.htm to http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/833/pe1.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090803210409/http://geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/1324/darwish.htm to http://imeu.net/news/article0014103.shtml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070707212658/http://www.kpfa.org/voicesofthemiddleeast to http://www.kpfa.org/voicesofthemiddleeast
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081201161103/http://imeu.net/news/article0014104.shtml to http://imeu.net/news/article0014104.shtml
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:07, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Mahmoud Darwish. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110525115501/http://www.hawiyatalrouh.com/ to http://www.hawiyatalrouh.com/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:42, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 13 external links on Mahmoud Darwish. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081211130233/http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=2008081014106 to http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=2008081014106
*Added archive http://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20021001094516/http%3A//www.fencemag.com/v5n1/text/darwish.html to http://www.fencemag.com/v5n1/text/darwish.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120204003602/http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104259194&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull to http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104259194&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110807211707/http://www.freemuse.org/sw10095.asp to http://www.freemuse.org/sw10095.asp
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080813080018/http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5igYFPqJ-3jDYRqxlRY1rIVvtHvvg to http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5igYFPqJ-3jDYRqxlRY1rIVvtHvvg
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081211095029/http://www.marcelkhalife.com/httpdocs/htmls/darwish1.html to http://www.marcelkhalife.com/httpdocs/htmls/darwish1.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141016235830/http://ccas.georgetown.edu/document/1242772109538/CCAS_Occasional%2BPaper_7.pdf to http://ccas.georgetown.edu/document/1242772109538/CCAS_Occasional%2BPaper_7.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120112001551/http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104248417&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull to http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104248417&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080815001254/http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Middle_East/10236279.html to http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Middle_East/10236279.html
*Added archive http://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20021001094516/http%3A//www.fencemag.com/v5n1/text/darwish.html to http://www.fencemag.com/v5n1/text/darwish.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070220014902/http://www.erasmuspc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=203&Itemid=81 to http://www.erasmuspc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=203&Itemid=81
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080920231418/http://www.sakakini.org/literature/mdarwish.htm to http://www.sakakini.org/literature/mdarwish.htm
*Added archive https://archive.is/20060524152317/http://www.marcelkhalife.com/httpdocs/htmls/lyrics.html to http://www.marcelkhalife.com/httpdocs/htmls/lyrics.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:22, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Mahmoud Darwish. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060827005436/http://www.lannan.org/lf/cf/prize/ to http://www.lannan.org/lf/cf/prize/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081211145354/http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=27956 to http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=27956
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:57, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Mahmoud Darwish. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/middle-east/poets-village-lives-only-in-memory
*Added  tag to http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011855.html,
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140107131508/http://www.levantine-journal.org/Mahmoud+Darwish_h_hd_8_4.aspx to http://www.levantine-journal.org/Mahmoud+Darwish_h_hd_8_4.aspx
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080916183806/http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19183 to http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/19183
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080513132949/http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16585 to http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16585
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:58, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified