Talk:Aldfrith of Northumbria

message: This sentence in the article surprised me: "Aldfrith was the first king to rule both parts of Northumbria, northern Bernicia and southern Deira, throughout his reign"; was Oswald not king of both throughout his reign?  I am not very familiar with Northumbrian history so pardon my ignorance if the answer is well known.
I'm also not sure that this fact is really worth mentioning.  It seems an oddity, rather than a fundamental statement about stability of the kingdom. *Mike Christie (talk) 02:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: I notice this is up for GA.  There are a couple of paragraphs that aren't cited, so it's likely to fail quickly.  I am willing to help find citations, but I suggest withdrawing it till they're done.  Then I think it could go straight to FA; it's in pretty good shape. Mike Christie (talk) 02:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA/FA

message: According to the 5 criteria for B- class...    
* B-Class-1 -Yes– Is the article suitably referenced, and are all major points appropriately cited?
* B-Class-2 – Does the article reasonably cover the topic, and not contain major omissions or inaccuracies?
* B-Class-3 -Yes–  Does the article have a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content?
* B-Class-4 – Is the article free from major grammatical errors?
* B-Class-5 –No infobox template, yes to images- Does the article contain appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams?
*According to the :Template:Biography substitution template...many of the requested sections have been included in the main article.  There could be an See also section which would include some links from the What links here page.  
*Lead seems to follow all guidelines...  Subject's popular name (birthdate – death) can be a lead-in to the subject's real, formal, or extended name. Describe the subject's nationality and profession(s) in which the subject is most notable. Provide a description of the subject's major contributions in the immediately relevant field(s) of notable expertise.
* 1. Context -Subject's popular name describing the category or field in which the idea belongs.
* 2. Characterization - appearance, age, gender, educational level, vocation or occupation, financial status, marital status, social status, cultural background, hobbies, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, ambitions, motivations, personality, what the term refers to as used in the given context.
* 3. Explanation - deeper meaning and background.
* 4. Compare and contrast - how it relates to other topics, if appropriate. 
* 5. Criticism - include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism. need to compare to other Northumbria royalty or other royalty 
I hope this is of some help.  SriMesh | talk 02:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Biography

message: I put a new map up for the bishoprics and monasteries; the old one was impossible to read without clicking on it.  I am starting to think that a map should be comprehensible in thumbnail, where possible, so I had a go.  This map background is more coloured than the previous one was, so I used underlines rather than colours to distinguish the bishoprics from the monasteries.  Please revert if this doesn't look good. Mike Christie (talk) 10:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure about the inclusion of Abercorn though... --MacRusgail (talk) 13:34, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Trumwise was expelled from Abercorn after Nechtansmere, so I guess the bishopric can be said to have existed at least a short time into Aldfrith's reign.  I think it's OK to leave it there. Mike Christie (talk) 02:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New map 

message: I'd like to add this family tree to the article, but it's going to have to go into the early life section.  I'll move that quote box into the main text to make room.  If anyone has a better idea of how to organize the section, let me know . . . .  Mike Christie (talk) 02:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the family tree, but I now see the spelling Fín in Kirby.  I took the spelling "Fína" from this source, used in the article.  Any advice on which is preferable would be appreciated; I don't have a lot of sources that mention her so I can't easily do a source count.  Any other comments on the tree appreciated too, of course. Mike Christie (talk) 13:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fína is a genitive, and is okay in certain positions. --MacRusgail (talk) 17:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK -- I assume I want Fín in that case, and have changed the tree accordingly.  Mike Christie (talk) 01:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganizing early life section 

message: I'm working on a new version of this in a sandbox, and have a question about this: Oswiu "accompanied his brothers and supporters into exile in Dál Riata and Ireland".  My knowledge of this period is weak outside the Anglo-Saxons, so I apologize for asking obvious questions.  I was under the impression that Dál Riata by this date referred primarily to what is now western Scotland.  So does the quoted phrase mean that we know Oswiu spent time both in Dál Riata and in Ireland, as two places?  Or does it mean that Dál Riata was in Ireland, and Oswiu would have been elsewhere in Ireland other than just whatever the domain of Dál Riata was?  I was originally inclined to cut "and Ireland" on the grounds that this article is about Aldfrith, but of course wherever we can deduce Oswiu was, there Aldfrith probably went too, at least some of the time, so it is directly relevant to Aldfrith.  Mike Christie (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dalriada (whichever spelling!) spanned the Straits of Moyle, and there was actually a "Dalriada" on either side. --MacRusgail (talk) 17:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I think I intended it to mean "in Dál Riata (Argyll and the Antrim Glens) and (perhaps) in (other parts of) Ireland". Dál Riata would be fine, although it would be reasonable to think that Aldfrith may have visited his mother's king in Tyrone. The only rather tenuous evidence for Bernician exiles anywhere other than Dál Riata and Pictland I know of is the appearance of the name Conaing (from OE cyning) among the Síl nÁedo Sláine of the Irish east midlands during the first half of the C7th, but that could have arrived in other ways. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 01:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dál Riata question 

message: OK, I've done a first pass through.  I'm going to go back through all my refs next and see if there's anything else I can add, but I doubt there will be -- this is a thorough job.  Deacon made a comment on  that the map should show Fortriu.  Actually those refs I have that talk about Scotland refer to it as Pictland or just Picts (or Northern and Southern Picts) but I'll take Deacon's word for it if that's that the usual name for this period.  I also want to add Driffield to the other map.  Any other locations?  Mike Christie (talk) 23:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Fortriu is the name of the dominant Pictish sub-kingdom (see ... I dunno... Woolf, "The Verturian Hegemony: A Mirror in the North"; Mercia: an Anglo-Saxon Kingdom in Europe, "Dun Nechtain, Fortriu and the Geography of the Picts", SHR, Pictland to Alba, etc.), located around the Moray Firth. Probably a good parallel is Bernicia/Northumbria. It's no big deal whether it's called "Fortriu" or "the Picts" in Aldfrith's period though. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I used "Picts", since we don't mention Fortriu by that name in the article.  I've uploaded the new version and also added "Driffield" to the other map. Mike Christie (talk) 02:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  First pass done 

message: "He was the recipient of Aldhelm's treatise on the numerology of the number seven, the Epistola ad Acircium."  Kirby p. 143 calls it "a treatise on metre".  Perhaps it's both?  Mike Christie (talk) 01:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking in Lapidge's "Aldhelm" article in the Blackwell Encyclopedia, I see Aldhelm also wrote a De Metris on metre.  I suspect Kirby nodded here; I'll leave this as is.  Mike Christie (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letter from Aldhelm question 

message: I think this is now ready for FAC.  I've got a couple at FAC right now, so I'll wait till Offa of Mercia is promoted or archived, and then put this up as a conomination with Angus.  I'll give it one more copyedit read but I think it's clean. Mike Christie (talk) 02:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ready for FA 

message: In the article, the names Alhfrith and Alchfrith appear to refer to the same person and both are wikilinked to article Alhfrith of Deira via redirection from Alchfrith of Deira. To make things less confusing perhaps the spelling should be made consistent within the article. The wikilinked article itself uses three different spellings so I'll leave the change, if needed, to someone who knows more on the subject.
The quote "to wave and slip backward ever lower" reads a bit off. Google book search does not return hits for the phrase with wave, but does show the phrase with waver in two books, including Bede/Farmer's "Ecclesiastical History of the English People". Since book preview is restricted there, I cannot verify use of waver at the original source and leave any necessary correction for someone with access to the book content. (Book search does fully preview the book "Scotland: The Story of a Nation" using the same Bede quote with waver, though using the plural backwards.)
-- Michael Devore (talk) 04:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Alhfrith's article was recently moved from Alchfrith and I forgot to ensure consistency so thanks for catching that.  Good catch on the quote too; I checked my copy and it's "waver", just as you say.  It's "backward" in my copy so I left it that way; translator's licence from the original Latin.  I fixed it in the article.  Thanks.  Mike Christie (talk) 10:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor things

message: I hadn't heard of Osana before Yorkshirian added her name to the infobox.  I put a question-mark on it; the only good-looking secondary source I can find for this is Coulstock, The Collegiate Church of Wimborne Minster; Coulstock comments that "modern historians seem to know nothing of a sister" of either Osred.  I would really like to find a better source than this, but I think this is good enough to mention the rumour.  I don't have access to a copy of Giraldus Cambrensis to look up the reference there -- I'd be curious to know exactly what he says and it would be worth adding a footnote. Mike Christie (talk) 12:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And as she says, which Osred? I'd say that an aside in the Osred articles would suffice. Angus McLellan  (Talk) 13:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support cutting it again if you feel that's best, but I think a cautious note is probably OK too -- though as I say a better source would be nice. Mike Christie (talk) 13:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Osana 

message: Some notes on how to address qp10qp's comments from FAC.  I think the following maps are probably needed:
* A map of the British Isles, showing Mercia, Wessex, East Anglia and Kent, just because they're the main A-S kingdoms.  If we want the map readable without the user having to click on it, then Wales can't have more than one or two names on it -- that in turn implies that Dumnonia and the Welsh kingdoms can't be individually named.  Perhaps "Native British kingdoms" in a band across Wales and Cornwall?  Then Northumbria in the north, with Bernicia and Deira picked out.  Dal Riata and Pictland.  No cities marked.  What else is needed for Ireland?  I can use :Image:Dalriada.png to get the location of Dal Riata, and I can mark it with a similar oval.  What else is needed for Scotland?
* A map of Northumbrian territory.  I think the one in the article now is probably OK for this purpose, with the addition of Austerfield and whatever should go in Ayrshire ("Strathclyde"?).  Possibly add Lindsey, though it would be right on the edge of that map.  Anything else needed on this one?
* A map showing more detail in Scotland, including Forfar, Iona, and key cities of the Scottish kingdoms.  What cities and kingdoms should be on this?
* A map showing more detail in Ireland -- qp suggested the Ui Neill, Tara, Brega, and the relevant kingdoms of the time.
Angus, if you can point me at maps that answer these questions I can use those to create new maps; or if you can send me scans that would work too. Mike Christie (talk) 01:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try and get some pointers for this tomorrow (or rather later today). Apologies for the delay, Angus McLellan  (Talk) 23:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done some work on the maps and I think they're OK now except that there's no map of Scotland, showing Iona or Forfar.  Unfortunately there's no easy way to fit in another map.  I think the best thing to do is describe their location in the text and not add a map.  I'll do that and post a note at FAC to say so. Mike Christie (talk) 17:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The location is taken from Blair's map in Roman Britain and Early England.  I've moved it a bit; not sure whether you're looking at the most recent version -- try hitting F5 (on a Windows machine) and see if that updates it.  Anyway, I am happy to move the location, but I would like to have a reference to a secondary source map that gives the location you're talking about.  The Blackwell Encyclopedia, for example, shows Strathclyde running from Dumbarton all the way to the Solway firth (map 9, p. 517, dated c. 700).  Can you give me another source to use?  Mike Christie (talk) 19:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think I'm looking at the most recent version. Strath means [river] valley, and this is widely known ... so you'd expect to find a river under the name. But on this map the name is closer to the rivers Cree and Nith (rather than the Clyde), which is kinda off-putting and misleading. The name "Strathclyde" is not attested until the later 9th century; if it is used for an earlier period (which it often is), it applies to the kingdom of Alt Clut (Dumbarton), a long way both physically and culturally from the cowboy country of Carrick. Even if this territory was part of the Alt Clut kingdom (for which there is not one iota of evidence), it certainly isn't the kingdom's heartlead which ... as the name would suggest, would be Strathclyde and more particularly the area we now call Inverclyde ("mouth of the Clyde") around modern Dumbarton, as well as the adjoinging Strathclyde areas around Glasgow and Cadzow (Hamilton). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

text:  Regarding sources ... though I think the point is common sense ... Smyth's map "Southern Scotland AD 400-850" (Warlords and Holymen, p. 17) has Strathclyde firmly in Strathclyde ... Kyle and Carrick are marked seperately. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the source.  Page 17 isn't visible on Google Books preview so I made a guess based on your description; take a look and tell me if that's close enough.  Mike Christie (talk) 20:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

text:  Smyth's map has Strathclyde going on top and in line with the river Clyde. Strathclyde after all meant "Clyde Valley" ... it never fossilised beyond that; in the later Middle Ages is called vallis de Clud or (anglice) Cludesdale. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I moved it again.  Let me know if this is better.  Mike Christie (talk) 22:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map comments from FAC 

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*As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  05:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Automatic peer review suggestions

message: Outstanding points to deal with.
#There was a note about Eadfrith having "Irish sympathies"; it was queried at FAC. I assume it refers to Eadfrith having sympathy with the Celtic Church's position on various matters.  I couldn't find it in the cited source so I cut it.  Angus has commented that he has a source for this and will re-add it.
#Dunbar as a royal centre; queried at FAC.  The Deacon added a source for it.  It would be nice to have a sentence clarifying what "royal centre" means, for those unfamiliar with such terms.
#Deacon has asked for more specific discussion of the sources.  Angus intends to add a paragraph on sources, probably to the end of the background section.
#I will cut the historical background a little; two reviewers commented that it was rather long.
#The Deacon wants a coherent discussion of Aldfrith's ties to Iona in one place in the article.  I am not sure what he means by this but will think about it some more.  Here's an additional comment from the Deacon on my talk page: "I think you could improve it by treating the Iona thing in one place. The church section ... split off the first paragraph Aldfrith the scholar, run it from or into the Iona part and then perhaps into the Golden Age. A few other shifts of text, and the "choppiness" would be mostly gone (it can never really go). E.g. you've got most of the church section in Aldfrith's Northumbria rather than "Relations with the Church", "Aldfrith's Northumbria" section is not clearly distinguishable in content from the rest of the article, etc, etc. If you changed the first, the actual church and Wilfrid section would still be small and not greatly adequate IMHO, but you can put that down to Deacon's idiosyncrasies."
#Qp10qp indicated he thinks the discussion of the conflict with Wilfrid could be expanded somewhat, so I will probably have a crack at that.
#Qp10qp left a long note about where Aldfrith was when Ecgfrith died, and what the relevant sources are.  Angus commented: "I don't think there is anything much. The Anonymous Life of Cuthbert says he was there c. 684. The surmise that he was there in 685 also is based on Simeon of Durham's claim that Ecgfrith was buried on Iona. It's a bizarre thing to make up, or so it seems to me, but Fraser thinks (thought?) that it may be a misunderstanding on Simeon's part, Inchcolm (Columba's other island) in the Forth being intended. Sharp in the Penguin Life of Saint Columba wonders whether the body went to Iona because Aldfrith was there."  This could be worked into the article by anyone who has these sources. Mike Christie (talk) 18:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: On point 5: I've moved one paragraph from the "Aldfrith's Northumbria" section to the "Relations with the Church" section, which is in line with the Deacon's comments above.  I think this is an improvement.  However, I'm not clear what the Deacon means by "split off the first paragraph Aldfrith the scholar".  The only sourced mention of Iona in the article is that that's where he was before Ecgfrith died; there's some material quoted by Angus above that implies he was there at the time of Ecgfrith's death and the body was brought there, but I don't have those sources at the moment.  Is the assumption that Aldfrith spent a lot of time on Iona and was educated or lived there?  Is there a source for that? Mike Christie (talk) 16:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd planned to cut a little from the additional historical material Angus added.  However, with the move of the paragraph about the church I no longer think the Golden Age section needs cutting, so I'm going to leave it, at least until I can understand what the Deacon is suggesting under point 5.  After that reorganization it might be beneficial to take another look at cutting. Mike Christie (talk) 00:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Left over from FAC 

message: The thing about Dunbar is that, to me, "royal centre" is meaningless in itself. The only source I can find (but there may be others that I haven't come across) is the part in Eddius where he talks of Wilfred being imprisoned at Dunbar. This seems to refer to the reign of Ecgfrith and a sheriff, called Tydlin, of the royal borough of "Broninis" (unidentified): "He [Ecgfrith] sent Wilfred to his town of Dunbar under the supervision of a sherriff called Tydlin . . .". Eddius says that in 681, Abbess Aebbe (Oswiu's sister) convinced Ecgfrith, while he was staying at Coldingham on a progress, to release Wilfred. All this is in the Penguin "Life of Wilfred" (the full details are D. H. Farmer, ed.; J. F. Webb, trans., "Life of Wilfred", by Eddius Stephanus, in The Age of Bede, London: Penguin, 2004, pages 145–48, .)
All this certainly gives a picture of strong royal control on that coast. However, I don't know what words have been translated as "sheriff" and "borough" or what "his town" implies—it could just mean that the town was part of the Northumbrian kingdom. The Alcock ref may cover "presumed royal centre", but in my view it would be enough for the article simply to say "with the town of Dunbar". qp10qp (talk) 20:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Stephen's urbs sua Dynbaer (his town [of] Dunbar), implies royal centre strongly, as there would be no reason to use sua unless royal demesne property were being distinguished. Anglo-Saxon age Dunbar is moreover too large and too good a fortress to have been left in the possession of a subordinate lordship ... evidenced further by Cinaed mac Ailpin's alleged burning of the town. In Alcock, it is discussed explicitly as a royal and administrative centre; it's not like Alcock is some mediocre historian. Why exactly should we depart from this interpretation? For what it's worth, Dunbar was the the centre of the later medieval "earldom of Dunbar", the Scottish protected rump of the post-Norman Bernician lordship. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you misunderstand my drift, which is only that "royal centre" is meaningless to the reader in itself (whatever it might mean to historians). It cries out for illumination, in the article text, along the lines you have just given. Even if circumstantial, that is very helpful. qp10qp (talk) 21:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that a parenthetical comment would be helpful to the reader here, though I don't feel confident about creating such a comment based on the sources I have.  If someone else feels they can add something useful, please do. Mike Christie (talk) 00:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Dunbar

message: I don't think Bede's account should be overlooked in treating this matter. As I mentioned before, Bede says in the Life of Cuthbert, "next year Ecgfrith was slain by the Picts and the throne went to his bastard brother Aldfrith recently returned from his studies in Ireland, where he had willingly exiled himself for the love of learning". This seems to me the clearest indication we have of where Aldfrith was (unless the translation is faulty). qp10qp (talk) 21:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Aldfrith's whereabouts

message: I note that Deacon calls him Stephen, and I wonder whether the time has come for the articles to switch from "Eddius" to "Stephen of Ripon", since scholarship now shows that Eddius's dates are slightly too early for him to have written the Life of Wilfred? "Stephen of Ripon" is therefore more accurate, I suggest. qp10qp (talk) 21:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed; I made the change. Mike Christie (talk) 00:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Eddius/Stephen

message: It's now thought that Nico Ditch was a boundary marker rather than a defensive ditch given its shape (a U shape rather than the more common V of a military ditch) and the absence of a bank which would have been very useful for defenders. Also the location suggests a boundary marker as mosslands were pretty much featureless and Nico Ditch could have helped secure a border. I understand that Higham may cite Nico as an example of a defensive earthwork between Mercia and Northumbria, so stating he's wrong may count as original research, but maybe a footnote could be added explaining that the interpretation of Nico Ditch has changed? Nev1 (talk) 23:54, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, if we have a source for the new interpretation -- do you have a source to hand? Mike Christie (talk – library) 23:57, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Page 41 of  should do the trick. It's used in the article on Nico Ditch to support the conclusion; I don't have it to hand to give you a quote, but the article is fully referenced. Nev1 (talk) 00:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

text: If you prefer that I provide a quote from the source rather than cannibalise another FA, that's fine by me and I can provide one in a couple of weeks when I have access to the book. It's not a particularly urgent issue. Nev1 (talk) 00:17, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added something, which could probably be improved; see what you think. Mike Christie (talk – library) 22:45, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for the late reply; it looks fine to me. Nev1 (talk) 22:33, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Nico Ditch]]