Talk:Oxford Group/Archive 1

message: For a more accurate and balance assessment of Frank Buchman, the founder of The Oxford Group, see "Frank Buchman: a life" by Garth Lean (Constable, London). The book was published later in the USA as "on the tail of a Comet". It can be viewed online at: http://www.frankbuchman.info/ (which is fully searchable). This puts the negative views expressed in the main article into context. For example, the Hitler quote, should be compared with what others, such as the great British war-time leader Winston Churchill, were saying about Hitler in the period before World War II when his intentions were far from clear. The Buchman biography, referred to above, makes it clear that the quote was taken out of context. There is no truth in the statement that Buchman focussed wholly on the rich and famous. He devoted a great deal of time and attention to unremarkable people.
:I agree the the Hitler praise quote seemed out of context and intended more to defame the Buchman and the Group than to provide genuine encyclopedic information. I removed it and some other non-neutral POV statments and other information that seemed like it was added in a similar spirit. I worry though that finding neutral information on this group is will be difficult. -- Craigtalbert 03:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''One-sided view'' 

message: Oxford Group discusses the historical Oxford Group. It's importance lies in the fact that a variety of other movements have their origin in the Oxford Group (see also Talk:Moral Re-Armament). This article should eventually provide a reference point for articles about the other movements. Useful content would be a description of Oxford Group's origins, teachings, organisational structure and Buchman's role. --Arne Neem 16:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and am working in that direction (so please forgive the gazillion incremental edits as contributions are tightened up). In particular, there is no mention of the relationship between the OG and Frank Begbie, author of the Twice Born Men books. The first of these (1908) had a significant influence on the development of the group (based on Begbie's observations of the Salvation Army, and containing the references to James' Varieties of Religious Experience that would later become so important to the Group), the second about lives changed by the group itself. Hipgnostic 14:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scope of this article 

message: While fixing some links I noticed that in 1933 there was party called "Oxford Group Movement" in Canada. It won a seat in Cowichan-Newcastle at the British Columbia general election, 1933. Does anyone know more about its relationship with the Oxford Group? --Arne Neem 17:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canadian Elections 1933 

message: This articls is slowly turning into an AA article.  The subject at hand is the Oxford Group and not Alcoholics Anonymous.  There should be no more than a paragraph about it's influence on AA.  As it is now about 75% of the article is dedicated to AA.  We should be discussing Frank Buchman and not Bill Wilson.  Mr Christopher 15:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is not an AA article 

message: This article refers to the Oxford Groups as a "cult" and the author seems to bear hostility to the movement, its members and founder.
If indeed AA has taken on so much of this initial movement to its own this stub of an article is very dissapointing.  I would like to see more of its basis and history than a few sprinkled pop-culture tidbits.  Any takers? Anthronify 05:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone 

message: The page on the Oxford Group asks for citations. I have done quite a lot of research on
the subject, and have a zillion citations. Start here:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot090.html
: Thank you. I think this article needs a lot of work. I noticed that most of the information on those pages is fairly disparaging of the Oxford group. To maintain and neutral point of view on can you recommend you recommend additional sites that are in favor of the Oxford group to help keep the article balanced? -- Craigtalbert 02:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: It isn't mentioned, but the Oxford Group originally supported changing one person at a time: myself. If I changed myself, then the rest of the world would fall in line. "I am not perfect. I can't expect the world to be until I straighten myself out." Up to this point, the Oxford Group was a growing force. 
The group was jolted, I think, by WW II, and dramatically shifted it's emphasis to reforming others. "I am perfect. If you were as perfect as I am, there would be no war (or whatever)." After shifting to this position, they became just another pamphlet-passing reformers group and their influence ebbed.Student7 02:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diametrical Shift in Emphasis to "Moral Rearmament" 

message: When discussing the Oxford Group, it is always pertinent to mention Sam Shoemaker, who was the very respectable public face of the Oxford group in New York, and who broke off with Buchman after Buchman's notoriety began to besmircxh his own creation. Let's face it, take out of context or not, Buchman DID make certain amiring statements about Hitler sand his ilk, and WAS in favor of authoritarian government in general.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.1.178.244 (talk) 13:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oxford Group and Buchman 

message: I think the new 12/15/07 lead paragraph needs to be by itelf in the begining and the remainer broken off into a separately named subsection. Can't quite figure out where the rest of the material would go or I would do it myself. Student7 (talk) 22:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: A reference that probably shouldn't otherwise be used seems to credibly suggest that Buchanan made a statement that seemed to support Nazism at a crucial time forever dooming MRA. See MRA. If true, this should probably be put into the article with a decent reference. Student7 (talk) 22:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buchanan soft on fascism? 

message: I had heard that the name change to MRA was not entirely voluntary. That Oxford University authorities (attorneys?) had contacted the Oxford Group and asked them to stop using their name. Student7 (talk) 22:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yet another unsupported rumor! 

message: The information is drawn from reliable sources, it outlines the history of the group, the groups  controversial aspects, it expansion, its involvement into war time, The groups views on Nazi Socialism and it remains.  it draws upon comments from critics of the group, that is not POV, the Time Magazine articles are historical references written at the time the group was active, and shows the controversy and issues surrounding the group and its practices.  YOU DO NOT VANDALIZE and ENTIRE WEB PAGE under POV , it is ridiculous and childish. --MisterAlbert (talk) 20:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an article Moral Rearmament that covers the group after it's name change. MRA information should not be in this article. Student7 (talk) 21:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can appreciate that there is a transition problem in nomenclature. MRA, pushing a "one-world" agenda, was handing out leaflets and putting on plays in London by the summer of 1956. Can't vouch for other dates nor provide a reference for this one. Student7 (talk) 00:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoa! Whoa! This happened before (above). I am not reverting anything! That is someone else! You may need to start a new topic when you complain! It ain't me. Please review history! Student7 (talk) 02:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time is not POV 

message: This is starting to read nicely IMO. Could it become an FA article?Student7 (talk) 11:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. This article lacks understanding and perspective of what Buchman and the Oxford Group set out to achieve and what it achieved. I think it needs major revision.Buberfan (talk) 13:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nice article 

message: The Oxford Group was a Christian organization founded by American Christian missionary Dr. Frank Buchman. Buchman was an American Lutheran minister of Swiss descent who in 1908 had a conversion experience in a chapel in Keswick, England and as a result of that experience he would later found a movement called A First Century Christian Fellowship in 1921, that eventually became known as the Oxford Group by 193
The name "Oxford Group" originated in South Africa in 1929, as a result of a railway porter writing the name on the windows of those compartments reserved by a travelling team of Frank Buchman followers. They were from Oxford  and in  South Africa to promote the religious movement. The South African press picked up on the name and it stuck.Tom Driberg, The Mystery of Moral Re-Armament, p. 52 & 53
Examples of guidance being obtained in every day life: the cook for a large Oxford group gathering told reporters that the menu was planned by God, another individual at a group gathering, who despite being a proud Englishmen, was guided by God to completely surrender his national pride, and hoist the Stars and Stripes. [15] At another event a woman noticed a bad smell possibly from the drains, Buchman reacted to her remark pointing out it was negative, it caused the woman to seek guidance, and when it came she realized that she must "never make negative remarks".[16]
Frank Buchman and his friend Moni von Cramon, a German member of Oxford Group, were the invited guests of Heinrich Himmler for the Nazi Party Nuremberg rallies in 1934 and again in 1935. They were known to meet with Himmler at social gatherings where they would discuss religion and politics. Due to his background Buchman was fluent in German. Buchman commented on Himmler being a great lad, and Hitler being quite helpful to the Group[34][35] In August 1936, Frank Buchman was again Himmler's guest at the Berlin Olympic Games[36]
Upon his return to the United States, Buchman gave an interview for the New York World-Telegram in August 26, 1936 stating his view on Hitler and National Socialism, an interview he would come to regret.
{Below is an excerpt Driberg  from a newspaper:   these are not Driberg words but his quotes from the  Article written by the newspaper The World telegram}  
"I thank Heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism, " he said today in his book-lined office in the annex of Calvary Church, Fourth Ave and 21st St. "My barber in London told me Hitler Nazis do Anti-Semitism? Bad, naturally. I suppose Hitler sees a Karl Marx in every Jew. But think what it would mean to the world if Hitler surrendered to the control of God. Or Mussolini. Or any dictator. Through such a man God could control a nation overnight and solve every last, bewildering problem." The world needs the dictatorship of the living spirit of God. I like to put it this way. God is a perpetual broadcasting station and all you need to do is tune in. What we need is a supernatural network of live wires across the world to every last man, in every last place, in every last situation... "The world won't listen to God but God has a plan for every person, for every nation. Human ingenuity is not enough. That is why the isms are pitted against each other and blood falls."
"... Human problems aren't economic. They're moral and they can't be solved by immoral measures. They could be solved within a God-controlled democracy, or perhaps I should say a theocracy, and they could be solved through a God-controlled Fascist dictatorship." [37
 
This was a  combination of Driberg and Time Magazine}
Prior to World War II, the Group changed its name to Moral Re-Armament (MRA) and believed that divine guidance would prevent war from breaking out. Daphne du Maurier's Come Wind, Come Weather recounted inspirational stories derived from Group experiences during the early years of World War II.
In the post war years Moral Re-Armament (MRA) as it then became called, widened its activities to provide "an ideology for democracy" in the struggle against Communism.Tom Driberg, The Mystery of Moral Re-Armament: A Study of Frank Buchman and His Movement, p. 11-12, Secker & Warburg, 1964The movement underwent a change of image and emphasis from  Christian evangelism to that of a political ideology.Tom Driberg, The Mystery of Moral Re-Armament, p. 13Time Magazine, "To Change The World"  In 2001, Moral Re-Armament became Initiatives of Change.
Your Objections to the  Driberg material as  sourced for the Wiki as  not being neutral is unwarranted.   Even a  homosexual, such a Driberg  is allowed to take account Buchman and Oxford group members  involvement with Himmler and quote "The New  World telegram".  If Benedict Arnold quoted a  New York Times article that was critical of George Washington , would it make it any less valid?
--MisterAlbert (talk) 22:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information sourced from Driberg 

message: In terms of overall perspective and content, this article relies heavily on Tom Driberg's book The Mystery of Moral Re-Armament.  Driberg was a notoriously unreliable source who made a personal crusade of attacking Buchman's work at every opportunity.  His motives for this are easily identifiable. 1. He was a promiscuous homosexual, picked up by the police several times for soliciting young men in public toilets (See his autobiography, published posthumously, Ruling Passions). As such he was at variance with the Oxford Group's emphasis on absolute moral values. 2. He was a KGB agent at a time when Buchman's success in converting communists had led the KGB to officially target MRA as an enemy of communism. (See Chapman Pincher: Their Trade is Treachery). 3. Driberg's brother, Jim, an alcoholic had been helped by Buchman personally to stay free from alcohol for some time, and had publicly associated with the Oxford Group (against Tom Driberg's strongly expressed wishes) before breaking off the connection with Buchman and subsequently lapsing back into addiction. 4. Driberg had been an occult follower of Aleister Crowley who had pledged himself to the "Great Work" in the presence of the Beast 666.
Many of Driberg's charges against MRA were answered effectively by Julian Thornton-Duesbery, Master of St Peters' College, Oxford, in The open secret of MRA. Over the next weeks I hope to restore some balance to this article. Buberfan (talk) 13:32, 21 July 2008 (U
Tom Driberg 's sexual orientation may have been an issue for the Oxford group,  but is not an issue as a reliable source for this article. Your own POV regarding Driberg's sexuality appears to be influencing your opinion that he is a reliable source.   Bill Wilson was a womanizer, who constantly boasted of his exploits to other Oxford members and was constantly "checked"  by group members.   AA material has been sourced for this article. Should we dispute that.   Rowland Hazard and Ebby Thacher were saved from alcoholism by the Oxford group, however they both eventually returned to drinking.  Wilson eventually broke from the Oxford group. Should we delete AA information regarding Oxford. 
Oh by the Way Garth Lean has been sourced as well, he was a dedicated follower of Buchman and a member of Oxford.  Are you not  concerned about his biases???  
Another point, , does the fact that AA's founders Wilson and Dr. Bob engaged in occult practices of  conducting seances, or that Wilson kept a Spook Room in his home and made claims he talked to the dead invalidate the use  of AA literature such  Alcoholics Anonymous 1984, Pass It" as a   source ?????? --Fred Woofy (talk) 01:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not saying that we discount Driberg as a source, but I think there has been too much uncritical acceptance of the Driberg critique.  My own POV is not that Driberg's homosexuality made him an unreliable source, but that fact that he was, in Churchill's words, the "kind of person who gives sodomy a bad name" - an extreme sexual libertarian, in private, whose values were a million miles away from the Oxford Group's.Buberfan (talk) 08:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely a strange man. The trouble with using him, it seems to me, is that we don't know which personna he was using when he made that speech. Labour party commenting on pre-war Hitler proclivities? Church of England commenting on a religious distraction? Closet homosexual trying to repudiate a homophobe? I think that what he said may need to be here. Having it said by Driberg seems, well, disquieting. Can't we find someone more reputable?Student7 (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kind of like quoting Benedict Arnold on the character of George Washington. It may need to be said, but hard to trust that source! Student7 (talk) 13:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of Tom Driberg material 

message: I have removed the reference to Peter Howard's involvement with Mosley's British Union of Fascists as being inaccurate. Howards involvement with Moseley was in 1931 before Mosley moved towards fascism. He was persuaded to become National Secretary of the Youth Movement of Mosley's New Party at at time when Moseley's politics were more Fabian socialist and when Mosley was against Fascism. Mosley described British Fascists of that time as 'black-shirteed buffoons, making a cheap imitation of Italian ice cream sellers'.Anne Wolrige Gordon, Peter Howard Life and Letters, page 44Buberfan (talk) 01:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccuracy about Peter Howard removed 

message: Improved the article to meet wiki standards...did leave some info blockquoted...paraphrased material so as not to violate copyright.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.232.97.13 (talk) 05:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Improved Himmler, Nazi Party Section

message: The quote from her is amusing but says a bit more about her than Buchman/Oxford IMO. If you read her bio, she is hardly in a position to comment on anybody! Student7 (talk) 12:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Queen Marie 

message: I have amended the article on the Oxford Group in some instances where the statement is simply untrue. 
Buchman never argued that “through 'change' induced in Hitler there could come a 'God-controlled fascist dictatorship’.” The very idea of a ‘God-controlled fascist dictatorship’ was to him, as to any Christian, a contradiction in terms. So the allegation made in 1953 by the Church of England Social and Industrial Council is meaningless. These points were raised in the two-day debate of the Council's report in the Church Assembly, which decided not to adopt their report.
Despite Tom Driberg’s accusation, Buchman never claimed that there had been ‘no more labor difficulties or strikes on the London docks since Moral Re-Armament started its campaign among the dock workers.’  Driberg was implacably hostile to Buchman and MRA, and his book cannot be regarded as an authority on either. 
All this has been extensively demonstrated in 'The Open Secret of MRA' (Blandford 1964), a book written by Julian Thornton-Duesbery, Master of St Peter's College, Oxford, in response to Driberg's book. It would be possible to quote extensively from this book in refutation of these two matters, but the point of this article is to give readers a clear overview of the Oxford Group, not to bore the reader with numerous attacks and responses.
The Catholic Church did warn its members against involvement with MRA in 1957. But the article cannot leave that statement as if it was the current attitude of the Catholic Church. As Garth Lean explains in his biography of Buchman, that warning was in large part due to a misunderstanding of how MRA worked. Yet throughout those years, and ever since, many prominent Catholics have attended MRA assemblies and written warmly about it. Among these were Chancellor Adenauer of Germany and Prime Minister Robert Schuman of France. Cardinal Koenig, Archbishop of Vienna, who attended many such assemblies, wrote in 1993 that ‘Buchman was a turning point in the history of the modern world through his ideas.’
The accusation that Buchman lived lavishly has no truth, as any reader of the many books about him can ascertain. How could he have held the loyalty of such an array of ordinary workers had he done so?
I have left all of Reinhold Neibuhr's criticisms. But to introduce as 'religiously vapid' an article about a movement which led tens of thousands of people to return to their churches is ridiculous. As is to call a movement 'socially vicious' which led to recovery for countless sufferers from alcohol. The accusations are therefore in their appropriate place.
Neither Buchman nor the Oxford Group were faultless, and the article contains numerous cricitisms of both. A balanced article needs this. But there is no point in carrying criticisms which have been shown to be based on falsehoods.
Oxted (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amendments to article 

message: The first paragraph of this section is plagiarized from the online article on Jung, "Stellar Fire," where the quote appears. The other two paragraphs are the quote itself. There are already too many quotes in this article, and more insightful things can be said about Jung's opinion of the OG. I don't think it belongs here, especially in view of the fact that none of it is original.Rose bartram (talk) 00:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jung 

message: The co-founder of AA, Dr. Bob's last name was Silkworth not Smith.
:No, this is not true. You're confusing Dr. Bob Smith, co-founder of AA with Bill Wilson, and Dr. William Silkworth, an early friend of AA and adviser to Bill W. He contributed a lot to AA but was not a founder. Bob Smith and Bill Wilson were the two who met in Akron on Mother's Day 1935, considered the beginning of AA.   ~ InkQuill  03:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr. Bob 

message: A surprisingly large amount of this article's text, both in blocks and in sentences and parts of sentences, consists of direct quotations of Oxford Group materials, but is not in quotation marks or blockquote markup, is not sourced, is not even vaguely attributed, but simply presented as if it were encyclopedia article prose stating facts. This is a gross violation of WP:Neutral point of view policy, Wikipedia is not a soapbox policy and WP:Conflict of interest guidelines, as well as being a violation of WP:Copyright violations and WP:Non-free content criteria policies and WP:Plagiarism guidelines, and is otherwise problematic for a number of reasons I needn't go into further. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 05:11, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced rampant quotation from OG's own materials are copyright violations and blatant bias 

message: As discussed at Talk:Frank Buchman, all this reliance on Buchman's own "biographer, Garth Lean, a supporter of Buchman and promoter of the group" is a very bad sign for neutrality and balance. Authorized biographies are never particularly honest or complete, but are works of public relations and spin control. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 08:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another bias issue