Talk:Subcontrabass flute

message: in the process, the merge seems to have left half the material on the floor; the photo of a double-contra, for a start, the fact they weigh a ton, and the Hogenhuis PVC instruments which are a lot lighter and more practical, and its sound sample external link. Should we add all that back in? — Jon (talk) 11:37, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, add back the other photo. (I just thought it would take up too much space on such a short article). I suppose you can mention that Hogenghuis specifically is the maker of PVC instruments, but most of that section was non-sourced (e.g., broader sound), and the weight is trivia that was derived from comparing two separate flutes from two different makers. I don't care about the external link. Why? I Ask (talk) 13:33, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Fool. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 04:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't revert the edits without a good reason. Both types of flutes are known as types of subcontrabass flutes in the literature and the information is too duplicative to have two pages. Why? I Ask (talk) 18:31, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double contrabass flute merge 

message: *Double contra-alto flute in G, length:  15 feet
*Double contrabass flute in C, length:  18 feet
They are different instruments. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: They are different instruments. But that is all that can be written about them using reliable sources that they have different ranges and (obviously) different lengths. They are both types of subcontrabass flutes, and there is no need for two articles with basically two sentences swapped. Why? I Ask (talk) 02:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Then add back the photo of the double contrabass flute and add back what was lost. (I was very careful to make sure all relevant information was included. The price of a new one and the fact that Kingma is working on a new model are not relevant or sourced.) And unlike the subcontrabass flutes, the low saxophones actually have repertoire and history based in reliable sources and have been standardized for over a century. The subcontrabass flute is relatively new and unstandardized, so many of the terms are not fully used by all reliable sources available. Many sources blanket it under the term subcontrabass flute in G and subcontrabass flute in C (e.g., Maclagen p. 332 and Toff p. 74). Because that is what they are. Tell me what more than the ranges can be used to differentiate them using reliable sources. Any prominent repertoire that uses one over the other? Why? I Ask (talk) 03:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

text: When I have ever said that they are the same instrument? I said that they are both subcontrabass flutes, and that having two stubs with the same sourcing and basic outline save for the ranges is unhelpful. Your ad hominem and complete misrepresentation of my editing (saying that I am blanking the pages or that I do not understand that they are two separate instruments) means that I don't have much of an inclination to keep arguing with you. I have provided my sources that call both these instruments subcontrabass flute and clearly delineate the two in the articles. This is a non-issue. Why? I Ask (talk) 16:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

text: Touching back on this since you failed to respond, you still keep saying that I fail to recognize that these are two different instruments. I really do not appreciate how you fail to engage in this discussion and are resorting to misrepresenting what this edit spat is about. You say that they are two different instruments, and I agree... that are both called "subcontrabass flutes". To keep arguing in the edit summaries that I do not get that is unproductive. Can you explain why you feel the need to split the pages? What information in particular is lost? Why? I Ask (talk) 05:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

text: The latter term is avoided? By whom? The sources used in this article beg to differ. I also find it problematic to act like this is a settled matter and telling me to move on to articles I have more expertise in. You still haven't followed up on my question. Why do these instruments need to be separated? The article clearly separates the two in big, bold font. What reliably-sourced information is lost? Why? I Ask (talk) 00:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: The double contra-alto flute and the double contrabass flute are different instruments.

message: Someone blanked the double contrabass flute page again: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Subcontrabass_flute&diff=1166839976&oldid=1166809867 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:44, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone blanked the page again. 

message: The term "subcontrabass flute" (also known as the double contra-alto flute since it's an octave lower than the contra-alto flute) refers only to the size of flute (in G or F) that's just below the contrabass flute in C. The one that's an octave below the contrabass flute is called the double contrabass flute and is as distinct from the subcontrabass as, for example, the baritone saxophone is from the bass saxophone. It doesn't matter that these sizes are relatively rare, our readers deserve to have separate articles for separate instruments. The double contrabass flute is not a "subcontrabass flute" because that's the size smaller than the double contrabass flute (and the two instruments are fully 3 feet different in length). As such, please restore the double contrabass flute article. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 23:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Done (also restored blanked text). Please contribute to Wikipedia in a manner that enhances rather than depletes our content going forward, thanks. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 23:04, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

text: As of March 10, 2024 the Double contrabass flute article has been entirely blanked once again. Please restore it. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 20:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please provide a reliable source that states, categorically as you do, that the term subcontrabass flute refers only to the G or F flute below the C contrabass. Even if you provide one, Kotato & Fukushima's own online catalogue presents models they call "subcontrabass in F" and "subcontrabass flute" (in low C), contradicting your assertion. Most of the very few resources I could find (see above) use subcontrabass for both, if they are mentioned at all, and Maclagan's dictionary lists the double contrabass in C as "Subcontrabass flute in C", which also contradicts your assertion. And please stop banging on about how they are different instruments, WE ALL UNDERSTAND they are different instruments. The issue here is whether they are separately noteable or even different enough to warrant separate articles. These instruments are still extremely rare, and only a few tens of instruments have ever been made. Note that just because one knows a thing as a practicing professional, doesn't always mean it belongs on Wikipedia just because one says so. It's not our job as editors to do original research, only to summarise and synthesise the body of documentary coverage that already exists. A similar compromise had to be made for the contrabass trombone article when getting it up to WP:GA, which describes essentially two different instruments; the modern single-slide German instrument in F that emerged in the 1960s displaced the cumbersome and generally unsatisfactory low B♭ double-slide instrument that Wagner conceived for The Ring, but is still manufactured and used. For this article there is scant material to cite. One thing I'd like to do is get a photograph taken, or released, or make a diagram, showing the family of Boehm flutes from picc to double contra. It would be nice to see if K&F might release this one with a compatible license for Commons. — Jon (talk) 04:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restore [[Double contrabass flute]] article 

message: Please restore the text that was recently blanked from the Double contrabass flute article, and refrain from editing Wikipedia in a manner that depletes and damages our content. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 19:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The subcontrabass flute and double contrabass flute articles are protected from anonymous IP edits because of your repeated vandalism and unwillingness to participate meaningfully in the discussion that took place last year. You keep repeating the same thing and yet never respond to any of the reasoning given. — Jon (talk) 23:55, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please restore blanked text