Talk:Snub TV

message: This article wasn't written in the manner that one would expect on wikipedia.  So I've re-written it in a major way.  I hope I've remained as true to the original as possible.  I spent many a late night in my teens watching Snub TV to see which unheard-of musicians would be on this week so I could impress my mates at school the next day! BaseTurnComplete 20:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

message: contributor - SNUB TV - I am one of the two founders of SNUB TV - this is the correct version of events below
SNUB TV
SNUB TV was a music television series that championed independent and diverse new music produced (and distributed) without major label backing.  Most influentially, SNUB TV aired on BBC 2 for three series during the years 1989-1991. It was produced and directed by Brenda Kelly and Peter (Pinko) Fowler.  (The pair knew each other from Rough Trade Records and distribution, and the independent music scene in the UK).  They formed their own company -  SNUB PRODUCTIONS  - to make the programmes.
For many independent artists SNUB TV was their first ever television exposure.  The times were bad in the media for new music, even giants like New Order were ignored. MTV wanted glossy, highly produced videos that were financially and aesthetically anathema to most great left field and independent  music of the day.  There was nothing on television that represented the vibrancy,  eclecticism and artiness of the music scene that was thriving out of the limelight.  SNUB changed  that.
Despite being made on a shoestring budget, SNUB originated much of its own material.  It mixed  interview, video and live performance. Unusually the series also  eschewed the  presenter led format in favour of original title graphics (Me Company  - Paul White, later added to by Vaughan Oliver - 23 Envelope) and a great theme tune (Adrian Sherwood/On U Sounds ), with short voice over introductions to artists and their music. SNUB TV was an acquisition for the BBC, which meant that SNUB owns its own considerable archives.
backstory
The very first ever SNUBTV aired on Night Flight - a subsidiary of cable network USA Network in 1987 in a deal brokered by the New York based Fran Duffy. After making 12 programme for the US market number (with some great reviews) Kelly and Fowler decided that losing money and working day jobs to support their film-making was not the way forward, and they stopped sending programmes to the States at the end of 1987.   It subsequently took them until late 1988 to secure a deal, when Janet Street Porter helming the Def 2 strand at BBC2 decided she would buy the series as an acquisition. This deal gave the pair editorial independence, but small budgets.  They went for it.  
What the reviewers said about SNUB TV
‘we should approach SNUB, the first edition of which is screened on BBC 2 tomorrow night at 7, with the Trace of a song on our lips and the infectious optimism of those purged with hyssop’  John Peel (Observer 8 January 1989)
‘Perhaps the most unmissable music tv programme since So It Goes a decade back.. the show’s critical aesthetic is perfectly honed’  NME
Remember when you watched music television…When music video and insipidity weren’t synonymous? When you didn’t want to punch the lights of the smug music-television host?  A ‘yes’ answer to any of the above is reason enough to check out SNUB TV’ L A TIMES  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snubtvcreator (talk • contribs) 12:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not surprised that UK journalists might thus be puzzled, just as any US journalist might be surprised to learn that the series had a second life in the UK.  But it seems to me that the "creators" are a little in denial over how the show came about. Without Southern's investment in studio equipment, and Duffy's achievement in 1) landing the NightFlight slot, and 2) raising funding, there would have not been a series at all. MacFie put them together. Duffy was the Executive Producer.  I would suggest that rather than disputing the "backstory", which naturally they don't know about since they were only hired to make the show once it was launched, the creators encourage independent editors to improve the section that relates to their own excellent work once they were on the job. As noted above I was involved, and thus have a WP:COI, both Duffy and John Loder are deceased, so sources are a little slim. As we know what's needed is WP:RS. It's possible some interviews with American associates could be done to flesh out that side. Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed Accuracy of Article 

message: ====Received at  and re-printed here with permission, from the SNUB TV creators====
It rewrites the history of SNUB TV completely, and wrongly attributes authorship to people we had little to do with.  SNUB TV found cult fame as an independently produced series for BBC. It was always produced and orginated in the UK - with our original music and titles.  We ran for 3 series,  from 1989-1991, and were critically acclaimed at the time.  The US series was our first  outing - in 1987- it' s our backstory if you like, certainly not the main event.  (The way that US show came about is not as it is told on the current SNUB TV page. 
And, the 12 programmes we made for the US were sent as fully edited tapes from us in the UK 
 
It also appears that, as Wiki is such a trusted source, for instance Facebook is using the Wiki page as truth. I am being contacted by journalists - even in the UK who remember the show - puzzled by the WIKI information.
=====Contact Info=====
Should any editor wish to work with the SNUB TV creators then ask me (or any OTRS agent) for contact details.  Ronhjones  (Talk) 21:53, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not surprised that UK journalists might thus be puzzled, just as any US journalist might be surprised to learn that the series had a second life in the UK.  But it seems to me that the "creators" are a little in denial over how the show came about. Without Southern's investment in studio equipment, and Duffy's achievement in 1) landing the NightFlight slot, and 2) raising funding, there would have not been a series at all. MacFie put them together. Duffy was the Executive Producer.  I would suggest that rather than disputing the "backstory", which naturally they don't know about since they were only hired to make the show once it was launched, the creators encourage independent editors to improve the section that relates to their own excellent work once they were on the job. As noted above I was involved, and thus have a WP:COI, both Duffy and John Loder are deceased, so sources are a little slim. As we know what's needed is WP:RS. It's possible some interviews with American associates could be done to flesh out that side. Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional Information

message: It rewrites the history of SNUB TV completely, and wrongly attributes authorship to people we had little to do with.  SNUB TV found cult fame as an independently produced series for BBC. It was always produced and orginated in the UK - with our original music and titles.  We ran for 3 series,  from 1989-1991, and were critically acclaimed at the time.  The US series was our first  outing - in 1987- it' s our backstory if you like, certainly not the main event.  (The way that US show came about is not as it is told on the current SNUB TV page. 
And, the 12 programmes we made for the US were sent as fully edited tapes from us in the UK 
 
It also appears that, as Wiki is such a trusted source, for instance Facebook is using the Wiki page as truth. I am being contacted by journalists - even in the UK who remember the show - puzzled by the WIKI information.
=====Contact Info=====
Should any editor wish to work with the SNUB TV creators then ask me (or any OTRS agent) for contact details.  Ronhjones  (Talk) 21:53, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not surprised that UK journalists might thus be puzzled, just as any US journalist might be surprised to learn that the series had a second life in the UK.  But it seems to me that the "creators" are a little in denial over how the show came about. Without Southern's investment in studio equipment, and Duffy's achievement in 1) landing the NightFlight slot, and 2) raising funding, there would have not been a series at all. MacFie put them together. Duffy was the Executive Producer.  I would suggest that rather than disputing the "backstory", which naturally they don't know about since they were only hired to make the show once it was launched, the creators encourage independent editors to improve the section that relates to their own excellent work once they were on the job. As noted above I was involved, and thus have a WP:COI, both Duffy and John Loder are deceased, so sources are a little slim. As we know what's needed is WP:RS. It's possible some interviews with American associates could be done to flesh out that side. Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Received at {{OTRS ticket|6977468|2013051510005184}} and re-printed here with permission, from the SNUB TV creators

message: Should any editor wish to work with the SNUB TV creators then ask me (or any OTRS agent) for contact details.  Ronhjones  (Talk) 21:53, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not surprised that UK journalists might thus be puzzled, just as any US journalist might be surprised to learn that the series had a second life in the UK.  But it seems to me that the "creators" are a little in denial over how the show came about. Without Southern's investment in studio equipment, and Duffy's achievement in 1) landing the NightFlight slot, and 2) raising funding, there would have not been a series at all. MacFie put them together. Duffy was the Executive Producer.  I would suggest that rather than disputing the "backstory", which naturally they don't know about since they were only hired to make the show once it was launched, the creators encourage independent editors to improve the section that relates to their own excellent work once they were on the job. As noted above I was involved, and thus have a WP:COI, both Duffy and John Loder are deceased, so sources are a little slim. As we know what's needed is WP:RS. It's possible some interviews with American associates could be done to flesh out that side. Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Contact Info

message: I am the other creator of SNUB TV in the UK (Peter 'Pinko' Fowler) in fact I came up with the name of the program.This is the true story of SNUB TV. I had worked at Rough Trade for many years and had started shooting video footage of the bands we had signed at the time, i.e The Go Betweens, Virgin Prunes, Smiths etc. I left Rough Trade to set up a video production company WITH John Loder at Southern Studios.John paid for and set up the edit suite. During that first couple of years I Directed/Produced/Shot and Edited concerts by The Pixies,later released on dvd, Sonic Youth,some of which the band has released Butthole Surfers, Swans released as a long form video 'Holy Money', Conflict, Mark Stewart and the Maffia and others.I also made videos for Kieth Le Blanc, Tackhead, Pixies, Bambi Slam, Mutiod Waste Co.,Dinosaur Jr and others.It was after this period of time that John told me about a contact in New York, Fran Duffy, that could get a show on air on the US Cable network by combining the sort of material I was shooting  with the news of the independent record scene that Brenda was printing in the 'Catalogue' magazine she was Editing.
In a matter of weeks we had convinced Adrian Sherwood of ON-U-Sound Records(and regular user of Southern Studios) to make us a theme tune, and get Paul White of ME-CO (Bjork etc) to design a title sequence.We produced 14 episodes on a weekly basis for the U.S. 220.239.161.164 (talk) 08:17, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: While WP:PRIMARY the above fits with the narrative of the article as it stands today. Wwwhatsup (talk) 06:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment from Pinko Fowler

message: Doing a search on google books on "Fran Duffy" and "SNUB TV" brings up a story from Option Mag in 1987, copy at The University of Virginia. Google gives this snippet  
:"Brenda Kelly talked with me about how SNUB was created and in which direction it intends to go. "It's funny in a way, in the way it started. Someone in America, Fran Duffy, saw The Catalogue and just thought that it accessed information that ...
I think this supports the assertions in the article as to the origin of the show. It would be good to retrieve the rest of the article.
Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable sources 

message: I wonder how useful the list of artists is. It is unreferenced and undefinitive. Could certainly be dropped. However there may some individual live appearances that might be deemed notable. What would be good to have is a list of programs, with the artists featured. On his facebook page producer Pinko Fowler has recently noted that he has been reviewing the programs. Hopefully something may materialize. Wwwhatsup (talk) 06:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed the article should be fleshed out some. However, beyond omission of the roots of the program, including John Loder's role, there are a few problems with your copy, Brenda. Please buff up on WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:PEA. Tone should be neutral and factual, stuff like "travelled widely", "huge cult following", "great artists", toned down and a claim like "1 million" needs a pretty specific authoritative ref.  Essentially an article should be a synthesis of the secondary sources. And a chronological narrative. We'll get there.  As to the program list, as you will have seen, some think it unnotable. I'd say it's valid, but you might want to publish it elsewhere first so that it can be linked.  Then it can be perhaps be tried here. If it's long and it's deemed worthy - it might merit it's own article. IMDB is another option for the episodes, but it would be highly laborious. I've fixed the glaring error - three BBC seasons not four. Wwwhatsup (talk) 09:46, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: List of artists vs list of programs

message: * Added image.
* Added website + Guardian story to ELs.
* Added USA Network template.
* Rewrite and segments
* Removed this ref, can't verify it?  
* Removed issue templates.
Wwwhatsup (talk) 08:58, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixes - Jan 2019