Talk:Oedipus Rex

message: Does Oedipus actually accuse Tiresias of killing King Laius? In lines 393-396 of the Robert Fagles translation, it reads:
OEDIPUS (to Tiresias): You helped hatch the plot, you did the work, yes, short of killing him with your own hands--and given eyes I'd say you did hte killing single-handed.
It seems more appropriate to say that Oedipus accuses Tiresias of conspiring to kill King Laius or something.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.11.254 (talk) 04:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accusation of Tiresias 

message: It seems a little trivial for an encyclopedia article.
Oedipus the King retold in 154 personalised licence plates
(Here is a sourced link)
http://web.archive.org/web/20041126095113/http://www.physics.upenn.edu/~heiney/jokes/oedipus.html
* This doesn't seem to be worthy of inclusion. It really doesn't help someone understand the story. I'm inclined to delete it, but it is on the talk page so I will give it some time. Mat334 18:37, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from main page 

message: Having visited the Shakespeare on Screen page, I am rethinking how this information should be presented without mentioning the DVD format. Rick Norwood 14:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the availability of a DVD irrelevant? 

message: That statement about how incest is Jocasta's punishment for trying to prevent her husband's murder is interesting because then in her struggle and death she too might be seen as a tragic hero. Theshibboleth 09:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two tragic heros? 

message: Here is what the Samuel Butler translation says, "Mecisteus went once to Thebes
after the fall of Oedipus, to attend his funeral, and he beat all
the people of Cadmus."  That is not quite what the paragraph in this article suggests, but I don't read Greek, so I do not know if the word translated as "fall" only means "fall in battle" or if it can also mean "fall from power".  If the latter, then this passage does not conflict with the events in this play, though it does conflict with the events in Oedipus at Colonus.  Can someone who reads Greek clear this up? Rick Norwood 15:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oedipus in the Iliad 

message: I was under the impression that Oedipus Rex was the most common name for the play. Should(n't) the article be there? —Vivacissamamente 11:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both titles are popular.  I don't think it matters which one is used.  - Ravenous 20:02, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oedipus Rex 

message: Sophocles' play is very often referred to by the name "Oedipus Rex."  This is a relic from a time when Latin was the lingua franca of the literary world, and it makes no sense at all for use in English: Sophocles wrote in ancient Greek, and "rex" means king in neither English nor Greek.  Therefore, an English-speaking person's referring to Oedipus the King as "Oedipus Rex" would be like a Greek-speaking person's referring to Attack of the Clones as "L'attaque des clones."
:I removed this from the article for now.  We probably could make this point in the article, however - I'd like to avoid the "no sense at all" type of comments and star wars references in making it. - Ravenous 20:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just passing through, but I'll comment.  Oedipus Tyrannus was the name that Sir George Young (1837-1930) gave the play in his translation.  According to the edition I'm reading from, it's truer to the transcribed Greek tyrannos, though the edition is still published with a big Oedipus Rex on the cover.  On an unrelated note, the second messenger relates the news of Jocasta's death and Oedipus rendering himself blind, not the chorus.  I'm going to be bold and change this second detail.  68.228.27.186 02:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My copy of Penguin Classics The Theban Plays (first published 1947) goes for King Oedipus - just how many names for this play are there? Timrollpickering 12:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The thing is that, because, as someone pointed out above, Latin was used in literary criticism for a long time, especially in the Classics, this play was known as Oedipus Rex for over a century. Many people know it by that name, even if they haven't read it yet. I know that I did. The title is correctly translated as "Oedipus the King" or, even better, "King Oedipus." But the article ought to mention the alternative title, if only to remove any confusion from readers who are looking for the play under that title. I think that the title of this article ought to be more helpful in this regard. It should read Oedipus the King (Oedipus Rex). I tried to change it but I guess I don't know how. If anyone wants to, they ought to try. The first line of the article is helpful, giving the alternative title, but I think it should be in the actual title of the article, to be more helpful to readers not that familiar with this masterpiece. 66.108.105.21 16:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think we should change the title, I do however recommend changing the "Oedipus Rex" page to redirect to this instead of the Opera, and perhaps adding a paragraph about the title controversy (just not the "makes no sense at all" one from above). - Ravenous 21:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Oedipus Rex" 

message: This article should be moved to Oedipus Rex. "Oedipus Rex" is by far the most commonly used and recognized title, as shown by a simple Google search. I will proceed with the move if there is no significant protest. --DLandTALK 05:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a request at WP:RM might be a better method. I don't think the Google searches are as straightforward as they might seem at first glance. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope that I don't sound anarchical by saying this, but the WP:RM process is traditionally bypassed in cases of uncontroversial moves (unless an admin is needed to move over a redirect, etc.). I would have moved the article already, but I wanted to run it by the article's more regular editors. Note that the strongest argument made on the talk page in favor of keeping the current title is "I don't think it matters which title is used." --DLandTALK 13:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I wouldn't say Oedipus Rex is "by far" the most common.  Both are in the hundreds of thousands of results on google, and a chunk of the Oedipus Rex results are for derivitive works, films etc.   If you include the keyword "Sophocles" in the search to help narrow it down to just this play, Oedipus Rex just barely edges out Oedipus the King with 8% more results. While I think that either title would be fine, I think it's probably futile to change it. They are both very common names for it, and someone is bound to come along and change it back in a month or two.  I do recommend that Oedipus Rex be redirected to this instead of the opera though. - Ravenous 15:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Ravenous; the Google searches don't tell us that one name is overwhelmingly more popular. That's why I recommended going to WP:RM, although I'd be prefectly happy if the page stayed here. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think anyone bothered to take any action. I don't really see why any action is needed; Oedipus the King is a very common title for this play in English, and it will become more so. Fewer people know Latin these days, and it's hard to see why we should use a Latin title for a Greek tragedy anyway... --Akhilleus (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well why not redirect it to the original Greek script then? No; the title is Prometheus Unbound in English. What this article's title should be is still in dispute, I suppose. Adam Bishop 00:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move 

message: They're kind of two sides of the same coin, aren't they? plus, the secondary scholarship is light. A healthy dose of E.R. Dodd's "On Misunderstanding the Oedipus Rex" (that might be a paraphrase -- I'll find it) is needed here to address the modern prejudice that Oedipus was just a puppet thrust into events beyond his control. In myth, oracles exist to come true. In that sense they, like fate, merely predict the final outcome -- neither oracles nor fate force the final outcome. Ifnkovhg 05:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Prophecy and Fate sections? 

message: Do we really need this section? Ahl's idea is interesting, but it's definitely not an idea that many scholars agree with, and the article really ought to concentrate on widely held interpretations. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, well, if Voltaire said something about it, then perhaps the idea's more significant than I thought. If it becomes a small section in a more richly-developed article (it looks like you're adding more sections), then I don't see a problem with it. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed this short paragraph that was under the title "Oedipus did do it?"  69.40.251.72 02:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Although the claims in the paragraph above are true, if they plot was meant to be that he had killed his father and married his mother than that is the plot. It is obviously what Sophocles wanted to happen in his play therefore that it what shoiuld happen. Also although the info the speculations stated above are reasonable, there is a chance that there was a survivor that Oedipus had not known about. Also, maybe the attnedent had been so traumatized that he was confused as to what really happen. In the translation of the play, it states that the attendant left the court because he was so traumatized. Maybe he too knew about Oedipus being given away at birth and realized the prophecy had come true thus leaving the court. Thus leading to Jocasta's and the"
Please see my "Oedipus or Oedipais?" section in the Oedipus entry. It should explain the perceived plot holes re: Oedipus' scarred ankles' escaping anyone's notice. 75.81.184.120 06:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Oedipus really do it? 

message: I don't want to get into a thing, but somebody removed the fate section, and I'm not sure why. It's a major theme in the play and should be dealt with. I'm giving you people pearls, here ;) Ifnkovhg 06:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The section was removed in this edit , because the editor who removed it felt the section violated the no original research policy. I think the section is worth keeping, but it should make more explicit reference to scholarship on the topic--more recent stuff than E.R. Dodds, too. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who moved my cheese? 

message: Hello. I am suggesting the following book as Further Reading on the Oedipus the King page:
Ramfos, Stelios. Fate and Ambiguity in Oedipus the King. Boston: Somerset Hall Press, 2006. .
Disclosure: I am the publisher of this book. To avoid overstepping conflict of interest guidelines, I am bringing this up on the talk page. I believe this book adds to the scholarly discussion of this topic. Stelios Ramfos is a prominent modern Greek philosopher. More info about this book and other books by Ramfos is available on Amazon.com. Look up Stelios Ramofs (alternative spelling Ramphos). I'll avoid further marketing language here. ;) Thank you for your consideration. Summer612 (talk) 18:04, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further Reading-Ramfos 

message: The character list includes the Sphinx... why?  I am removing this.
--Orias (talk) 15:29, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Sphinx a Character? 

message: I think there should be a section on film and operatic adaptations, rather than a "see also" section, and it ought to include a reference to the film version directed by Saville and starring Christopher Plummer and Orson Welles. Indeed, whoever listed Laius as a character (see above) was probably thinking of that version, in which the killing of Laius appears as a flashback.
There might also be a section on notable translations. Tom129.93.16.177 (talk) 23:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why not an "adaptations" section 

message: This is a big can of worms, but what the hell.
I know there is scholarship that defends the position (endorsed in the article) that Laius' oracle is unconditional and Oedipus' oracle is conditional. But there are also arguments to the contrary: Laius' oracle is conditional (and therefore avoidable), but Oedipus' oracle is absolute (and unavoidable). The second argument, I think, finds more support in the text:
Laius' oracle was: hôs auton hexoi moira pros paidos thanein/ hostis genoit' emou te kakeinou para. "[He was told] how the fate would take him to die by a child, whosoever would be born by me and him."
It seems to me that, reworded, the above is a future more vivid condition: If a child is born from you and him, the fate will take him to die by the child. This fits nicely with the fact that, in all versions of the myth, he is warned against having children before Jocasta's pregnancy. 
Oedipus' oracle was: eipe gar me Loxias pote/ chrênai migênai mêtri têmautou to te/ patrôion haima chersi tais emais helein. "For Loxias once told me that it was fated that I marry my mother and take my father's blood with my hands."
This oracle has no conditional force at all. The infinitive chrênai "to be fated, necessary" suggests the opposite. In this light, Laius comes off worse for siring a child when he was told not to, and Oedipus is made more pitiable for suffering his inevitable fate. His own actions ironically hasten this fate.
I'm not going to edit, but I thought I would bring it to your attention. Ifnkovhg (talk) 02:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To make it into the article, your argument (which I find quite plausible) needs to be cited to a secondary source. Indeed, the article ought to be a summary of the major positions taken in scholarship on the OT, rather than a sketch of the "right" interpretation of the work. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  conditional/unconditional oracles. 

message: While I see a nice long list of translations, might someone work up information about editions of the Greek text (including those on-line)?  It would be nice to have a short bit on the mss history of the play, e.g., how well known is the original text? ABS (talk) 00:28, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Texts & editions 

message: Do you see any symbolism in the way in which Oedipus blinds himself?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.115.68 (talk) 16:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  blinding 

message: I've done a lot of work on Yeat's translation of O.T. and his isn't really a translation, but an adaptation of Richard Jebb's text. Yeat's didn't have Greek, or at least he claimed to have forgotten all of his Greek. He did get a scholar to help him with some parts of the play, but by and large it was a reworking of Jebb's text. The 1957 Guthrie film used Yeats' text.
Does Yeats really count as a translation if Jebb's text is his primary source rather than the play proper?
And then does the 1957 film need to be said that it too is working from the original by using Yeats' text?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pandaros (talk • contribs) 11:53, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yeat's Translation of O.T. 

message: The Ingres portrait, and the one at Oedipus complex, while different paintings, are sufficiently similar as to make it obvious that one of the photos is reversed.  I have no idea which, though.  --  Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo reversed?

message: The Theban plays consist of three plays according to 20th and 21st designation which was unknown to Sophocles: Oedipus the King (also called Oedipus Tyrannus or by its Latin title Oedipus Rex), Oedipus at Colonus and Antigone. All three plays concern the fate of Thebes during and after the reign of King Oedipus. They have often been published under a single cover. Sophocles, however, wrote the three plays for separate festival competitions, many years apart. Not only are the Theban plays not a true trilogy (three plays presented as a continuous narrative) but they are not even an intentional series and contain some inconsistencies among them. He also wrote other plays having to do with Thebes, such as the Epigoni, of which only fragments have survived. FelixRosch (talk) 16:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anachronistic reference to Theban plays 

message: Having rarely heard the title given as anything other than Oedipus Rex, I decided to check Google ngrams for English-language occurrences.  Looks like Oedipus Rex is about twice as common as Oedipus the King, and the latter's popularity might have been inflated by the number of books in which the phrase appears just once, in order to explain the Latin title, or in the text of the play, where the Latin title wouldn't be used even if the play itself is called by its Latin name.  In other words, it's possible that most of the entries for "Oedipus the King" occur within publications under the title Oedipus Rex, although the reverse is probably not true to any significant extent.  In works published from the 1960's to the 1980's, Oedipus Rex is even more ubiquitous, so I think it's safe to say that this is how the great majority of English speakers know the play today.  I also checked Œdipus Rex and Œdipus the King, but neither produced a significant number of entries.
Given that Oedipus Rex remains the most common title in English by a wide margin (how wide depends on the extent to which "Oedipus the King" also appears in publications titled Oedipus Rex), should this article be moved to that title?  Wikipedia policy has a clear preference for the "most common name" in English-language articles (the original language of the play isn't a factor in this policy).  Titles may vary from that policy if there's a good reason, but I don't think the fact that many other Greek plays are known by translated titles is a good enough reason; the consistency with which the titles of plays in foreign languages are translated seems much less important than the fact that the play is usually known as Oedipus Rex in English.  I also note that there may be a very good reason why the title isn't usually translated: the phrase "[name of king] Rex" is/was sufficiently familiar in the English speaking world for most people to know what it means, even today, which wouldn't be the case with many other plays with Greek or Latin titles (excluding those consisting solely of the names of mythological figures).  P Aculeius (talk) 13:12, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it should be moved to Oedipus Rex. DagSkaal (talk) 04:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: As we seem to have consensus, I've made some edits to the article to reflect the common name.  However, as a page move is blocked by the redirect page, I'll post this at "Requested Moves".  P Aculeius (talk) 15:12, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to Oedipus Rex (redux) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I thought that Classical Attic Greek pronounces ου as /u:/ (and ω as the spelling for /o:/), so the pronunciation given in the article for Οιδιπους is wrong. TomS TDotO (talk) 07:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation of Οιδιπους 

message: Is this section relevant? "each man has, as king, made a decision that his subjects question or disobey" What decision has Oedipus made that his subjects question or disobey? The decision of Laius to kill baby Oedipus was a personal one, as was that of the shepherd to save him. --Hugh7 (talk) 00:35, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: State control?

message: Shouldn't all the events of the play be stated in present tense rather than past tense?
Ex: "Oedipus learns that..." instead of "Oedipus learned that..."
:It depends.  See this Wiki article: Historical present.  Oxcross (talk) 12:07, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: All but the past events (Jocasta's suicide, Oedipus's self-blinding) described by the attendant. --Hugh7 (talk) 00:35, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Present Tense? 

message: Currently the most recent English translation of Oedipus the King listed is from 2020. Since then, Bryan Doerries has published his translation of the Oedipus Trilogy in 2021. 
Sophocles, Doerries. (2021). Oedipus Trilogy, New Versions of Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone: Vol. First Vintage books edition. Vintage.
147.26.5.25 (talk) 02:57, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updated Adaptation/Translation