Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 2

message: Looking at the article on Mozart, I think one of the things that are lacking in this article is Beethoven's influence/legacy. The article on Mozart not only described Mozart's influence on other composers, but also (interestingly) included many of the praises that Mozart received. Now, I'm sure there's a LOT more that can be said about Beethoven's influence/legacy. Spartan 76.166.97.147 05:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Beethoven's Legacy

message: In the first paragraph the claim is made that Beethoven was an accomplished violinist. While I'm not at a position to dispute it, I remember reading (possibly in the booklet that came with a CD) that Beethoven was not a very good violinist. There was a quote from one his 'apprentices' on the subject. (forgot to sign) O Violinista 03:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Accomplished violinist

message: You'll see under the discussion above (see under "Dueling Portraits") that the portrait by Carl Jaeger that originally began this article was done long after Beethoven's death, and represents a retrospective, romanticized portrayal.  Since there are now a number of authentic Beethoven portraits on the Wikimedia Commons, I selected one (the 1804 portrayal by Maehler) and replaced the Jaeger portrait.  (Also, I got rid of that bulky box, which had nothing in it other than the life dates--already in the first line of the article).  Opus33 00:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More on the portrait

message: Beethoven grew up in Bonn and then moved to Vienna. Was either place in Prussia during the late 18th and early 19th centuries?
:According to the Bonn page, "In 1815 Bonn was taken by Prussia and remained a Prussian city until 1945." It doesn't appear that Vienna was ever annexed by Prussia. However, I don't think Beethoven was an ethnic Prussian. --Jugbo 03:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was Beethoven Really Prussian? 

message: The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor, 1st movement recording is hidious, it presents a really bad image as it appears to be a recording of a midi sequencer or maybe a robot. It needs a replacement with a good version if anyone has one, deletion if not, or at least a note adding that it's a low quality recording. This should stop people who come here to read about a great composer somehow getting the idea that he was deaf or something ;) In the mean time I have marked it as low quality. --88.96.3.206 16:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moonlight Sonata - recommend deletion 

message: Hello--
I'm moving this passage off the article and putting it here for reference:
:During his lifetime, Beethoven also radically influenced the evolution of the piano.  There had previously existed two common schools of piano making: in Vienna the instruments were made light and easy to play for purposes of precision with less dynamic range whereas those in London had a fuller sound with heavier keyboard action.  Beethoven, though living in Vienna, had adopted a much heavier style of playing than most of his contemporaries, and although he was not the only pianist of the time to lobby for a heavier instrument, he was the only one whose musical genius had become synonymous with the artistic culture of Vienna.  More specifically, Beethoven had connections to the prominent piano manufacturer Andreas Streicher and as Beethoven's esteem increased, the pianos in Vienna evolved to fit his specific taste.
Reasons:  (a) it doesn't cite any reference sources; (b) The one serious reference source I've read, i.e. Edwin Good's history of the piano, says it's wrong; the piano makers were not falling over each other to make a piano that would satisfy Beethoven in particular.  It's certainly true that the piano evolved rapidly in Beethoven's day, but I'd want to see a cited source if we're going to include the idea that the piano changed specifically at Beethoven's instigation.  Opus33 21:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this removal.  If anything, the evolving piano influenced Beethoven, not the reverse.  We are generally tightening up our referencing and sourcing here, and I think this is a good example of what needs to be done.  Alternatively, if a good reliable source can be found which shows that piano makers changed their approach to instrument-building specifically to suit Beethoven, we can put that in. Cheers, Antandrus  (talk) 21:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Antandrus.  Of course I'm not adding any sources at all yet!  But perhaps the right path to follow with this article is first to trim back, then to build up again, with good sources as part of the ongoing Wikipedia scholarship upgrade.  If I can get the time, I want to channel Thayer a bit... Opus33 22:32, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Beethoven and the piano

message: I checked carefully through this paragraph:
:Born in Bonn, Germany, he moved to Vienna, Austria, in his early twenties, and settled there, studying with Joseph Haydn and quickly gaining a reputation as a virtuoso pianist.  In his late twenties he began to lose his hearing, and yet continued to produce notable masterpieces throughout his life in the face of this personal disaster. Beethoven was one of the first composers who worked as a freelance - arranging subscription concerts, selling his compositions to publishers, and gaining financial support from a number of wealthy patrons - rather than being permanently employed by the Church or by an aristocratic court.
and found that it says nothing that isn't said later on in the bio section.  It doesn't seem sensible to take just the first part of Beethoven's biography and have it included in the intro section, so I took it out.  Opus33 21:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Opus33, I just noticed that this paragraph had been removed.  Sorry, but I disagree with you entirely and am putting it back: the purpose of the lead is to precis the article, so "it says nothing that isn't said later" is entirely the point.  The lead cannot be a precis of the article without saying something about his life.  I happen to think it is a brilliantly succinct complete biography (but then I wrote it :-).  Best wishes,  --RobertG ♬ talk 10:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing a redundant paragraph

message: I would like to remove just a few more things.  Here they are, so you can check if you would prefer them to stay in.
From Social difficulties section:
:He didn't publish anything during this period, but he released an enormous amount of material in 1816.
First sentence is definitely false; look at any listing of works that has the dates.  Second part:  I'm not sure whether this is true or not, but since the first part is wrong and no reference source is given, I think we're safer doing without it.
:His last musical sketches belong to the composition of a string quintet in C Major . 
No published source, and it certainly doesn't fit into the context where it appeared.
In the death section:
:(Beethoven died), in the midst of a fierce thunderstorm, and legend has it that the dying man shook his fists in defiance of the heavens. 
Please see Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven for the soberer version told by biographer Thayer.  The thunderstorm is probably true, but the bit about "fists" is pretty wild.  Long ago, some biographers exaggerated the lifting of a hand into the making of a fist.  And whoever put this into the Wikipedia has amplified further - now it's two fists!  This is informative for how legends arise (everybody want to put a bit more zip on the story as it's retold), but not very helpful in an encyclopedia.
From "The Three Periods":
:Considering the depth and extent of Beethoven's artistic explorations, as well as the composer's success in making himself comprehensible to the widest possible audience, the Austrian-born British musician and writer Hans Keller pronounced Beethoven "humanity's greatest mind altogether".
Maybe someone will want to put this back, but my feeling is that it's just an opinion - it doesn't inform us in any way about Beethoven.  
Cheers, Opus33 22:32, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Huzzah to you, sir, for using the phrase "weasel words." I agree with the deletions included here, except the last one - I think opinions by Hans Keller are informed enough to be included here. --Milton 04:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A few more removals

message: I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information.  I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list.  Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article.  I see that Beethoven already has a separate page for fictional representations.  Perhaps it would be a good idea to expand that to include other types of cultural references.  Regards, Durova 15:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Greetings Durova. I think that's a splendid idea. I heartily encourage you to do so, I've always found cultural depictions to be most enlightening. --Milton 15:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Cultural depictions of Ludwig van Beethoven]] 

message: I've checked Thayer vol. I out of my local library and will sooner or later try to use it to put in details and in-line references.  
But for now, I have a query.  We have a satellite article, Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven.  Would it be sensible just to fold its content into the main article and make it a redirect?  This would beef up the Ludwig van Beethoven article pretty quickly, addressing the complaints above.
Opus33 14:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that Thayer is a really old book and of mixed quality.  Better check some newer ones.  Here is another old book (online from project gutenberg): . 67.117.130.181 11:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure if it isn't copyrighted or anything. I can add it for you if you give me a link to it.--Team6and7 01:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the recordings are suitably licensed for upload to wikimedia commons, they should be uploaded and linked.  If they're not suitably licensed for upload (in particular the widespread "no derivatives" and "non commercial" CC licenses are unsuitable), I don't think they should be linked, this article has too many external links already and some should be removed.  Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a link farm.  Is there some reason the article is protected? 67.117.130.181 11:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lengthening the article II:  how? 

message: I am not the first person to say that these are the non plus ultra in Classical music. Put simply, this music has never been surpassed. They are the definition of sublime.
Beethoven is composing from such a high intellectual plane that he can sing, dance or stand still, improvise, or even 'mess around' in any way he feels like with this music. He has discovered complete freedom in art.
Jonathan FeBland 12:22,  6 November 2006
:Thanks for playing. Pick up your prize on the way out. - Eyeresist 08:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Late Quartets 

message: I found in the text some seriously dubious assertions. Like "interlocking thematic device or "germ-motives" to achieve inter-movement unity in long compositions", Haydn did this as early as 1774 and even more scandalous is "making it (ie. the rondo) more elastic and spacious bringing it closer to the sonata-form.", this is a well known triat of Haydn's  and Mozart's music. I would like to see the sources of these assertions as the seem to me to be stamming from a laudatory XIX century biography.201.80.49.137 12:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: I've noticed a whole load of vandalism to the article very recently (see history); should we semi-protect it? —  $PЯINGrαgђ  23:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That keeps getting added by the same IP.  I've blocked it twice now and will block it hard next time.  Let's hold off on protection for now.  —Wknight94 (talk) 03:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protect? 

message: The article says Beethoven was recognized early as very talented.  I would like to see a reference for this, as it is uncertain to what extent this is true. MotherFunctor 22:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can find it in pretty much any biography on Beethoven. Just find a book and cite it. I dont feel like citing it myself though ^_^Ittan 02:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He was talented, but he wasn't a Mozart. bibliomaniac15 05:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The online Grove has a decent reference we could use.  It contains a description of a concert he played at the age of 11, about which there is some citeable written commentary.  That is the same year he wrote his earliest known surviving work (the variations on a theme of Dressler, published in Mannheim, WOO 63).  Biblio is right, however:  he was not a child prodigy like Mozart (or Mendelssohn, or Erich Wolfgang Korngold for that matter).  Antandrus  (talk) 16:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Child prodigy? 

message: J.A. Roger's work, 100 AMAZING FACTS ABOUT THE NEGRO WITH COMPLETE PROOF, written in 1957.
The following is his proof: 
Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, in "Race and Civilization," refers twice to Beethoven's "Negroid traits" and his "dark" skin, and "flat, thick nose." (pp. 123 and 178).
Frau Fischer, an intimate acquaintance of Beethoven, describes him thus, "Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish-brown complexion." (From r. H. Schauffler, The Man Who Freed Music, Vol. I, p. 18, 1929).
In speaking of the immortal Haydn who was Beethoven's teacher, Andre de Hevesy, says: "Everybody knows the incident at Kismarton or Eisenstadt, the residence of Prince Esterhazy. In the middle of the first allegro of Haydn's symphony, His Highness asked the name of the author. He was brought forward. "'What!'exclaimed the prince, 'the music is by this blackamoor? 'Well, my fine blackamoor, henceforward, thou art in my service.'"
Carpani, who originally related this says that "Haydn's complexion gave room for the sarcasm." And that Haydn had the title of "second professor of music but his new comrades called him The Moor." (G. Carpani: Le Haydn, etc. Letter 5. Milan, 1812).
Referring to the above incident, Alexander W. Thayer, perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, says, "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, 'Haydn.'" (Beethoven, Vol. I, p. 146). By "Moor" was meant "Negro." Until recent times the German for "Negro" was "Mohr."
Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that "the most faithful picture of Beethoven's head" shows him with "wide, thick lipped mouth, short, thick nose, and proudly arched forehead." (Beethoven, p. 41, 1925. trans. Bozman). Thayer adds that Beethoven was an ugly little man, and no one would be more astonished than the great composer should he return and see how he has been idealized by sculptors and painters.
Beethoven's family originated in Belgium, which had been ruled for centuries by the Spaniards, who had large numbers of Negro soldiers in their army there. Theophile Gautier speaks of a Belgian type characterized by brown skin and dark hair "a second race which the soldiers of the Spanish Duke of Alva have sown between Brussels and Cambrai."
In short, the general description of Beethoven, even to his frizzly hair, fits that of many an Aframerican or West Indian mulatto. In the Southern States Beethoven would have been forced to ride in the jim-crow car. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.198.96.50 (talk) 06:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What the deuce? O_o —Andrewski 11:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beethoven's ancestry 

message: This talkpage is currently pushing 50 kb long -- pushing the point where it takes forever to load and already too long for those of us (ie me) with old browsers to edit the templates at the top w/o destroying the page. ...I haven't been active editing here much, & I'm a bit uncomfortable declaring what of the above can be called resolved or moot, dates aside.  Perhaps a more frequent LvB editor can take a couple of minutes & start a new archive 2 page and move out what seems unnecessary (including, by then, this comment)?  Thx much —Turangalila talk 05:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was tricky because the threads were so scattered.  I moved most threads with a final comment prior to March 2007 to Archive 2.  Good suggestion. Antandrus  (talk) 05:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving request (since granted)