Talk:Ambling gait

message: Just my opinion, but this looks more like it belongs as a dictionary definition than an encyclopedia article.  I'd suggest a transwiki tag here.Fightindaman 17:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I've become a bit wary of Wikipedia edit wars lately so I'm going to put this in as a suggestion and not just brashly edit it in - but it's widely acknowledged that the Standardbred, and especially the American branches of the genes, are good racking horses. The European branches seem to have less of it but I recently bought a half-American STB (by Express Ride) who started racking/step pacing after zero training so I became really interested and started doing research. The numbers of racking / stepping pace STBs and STB racker enthusiasts are great indeed and the genetics are undeniable. Doesn't this warrant an insertion of the STB in the list of ambling horse breeds? :-) Nimloth250 (talk) 11:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad you are taking it to discussion because it's a good discussion to have.  But for starters, let's look at and discuss what is a "gaited" or "ambling" breed.  The breeds discussed are those deliberately bred for one of the various 4-beat ambling gaits.  The Standardbred was not bred specifically to be an ambling breed, it was bred for speed at the pace or trot.  It is, of course, an American-originated breed, and I don't doubt that there are some ambling genetics there  -- there are gaited Morgans, some may be in the Standardbred gene pool (I don't know this, I'm guessing), plus the extinct Narragansett Pacer, a probable ambling breed, did play a known role in the Standardbred.  But my concern is creating an endless laundry list of "breeds with some gaited individuals."  Basically, many breeds may have representatives that are gaited.  Just as an example I once owned an Arabian that was perfectly able to do a lateral four-beat gait, and the well-known Arabian stallion Raseyn was even trained to perform five-gaited, but that doesn't make the Arabian a "gaited" breed. Likewise, some Morgans are gaited and that doesn't make them a gaited breed, either.  I've even heard tales of gaited Quarter Horses and Mustangs (Mustangs don't surprise me, with descent from Spanish jennet types).  My concern is if the breed's standard indicates they were bred to be gaited -- which may include competition where they are judged on the quality of those gaits -- or just coincidentally happen to be gaited.  So perhaps that discussion needs to precede a discussion of whether to add more breeds.  Maybe also, note Gaited horse.  Montanabw(talk) 21:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your response! I agree that it's not a horse that's been developed to rack, but the racking genes are very prevalent, especially in the American branches. The racking movement in the US is really large by now and there are stud farms dedicated to breeding speed rackers - see for instance http://www.speedrackinghorses.net/index.htm and http://www.rebelpridefarm.com/index.html which I found after a quick Google search - but I find that the ignorance toward the racking genes is greater than expected. I'm about to start up a racking movement in my own home country (Norway). I wasn't planning on pulling this argument but seeing that there actually are stud farms turning out specifically gaited STBs shouldn't that fulfill the criterion you cited above? I do agree that the breed has not been specifically developed for the purpose, but the use is certainly becoming very prevalent in the non-racing world. And I think it must be said that the "breed with some gaited individuals" is much more prevalent than just a few individuals! In either case I'll respect your opinion but I do feel that the breed deserves a mention. Nimloth250 (talk) 08:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I truly dread the "laundry list" problem.  I am serious; I can name of half the breeds in America that could wind up here (Standardbreds, American Saddlebreds, Tennessee Walkers, and Morgans all have "Thoroughbred plus local ambling horses" roots, much cross-fertilization there, and one source of rootstock for the Quarter Horse also comes from the "Virginia Quarter-Miler," another related mix), and there are big "didn't you know our breed was gaited too?" factions in most of them.  In the USA, gaited horses are "hot" and everyone and their dog is trying to make "new" gaited breeds and claim older breeds are gaited for sales purposes.   It may be different in Europe, but over here, they're both trendy and common. The two commercial sites you show indicate that there clearly is a gaited movement there, but I think the info is better placed in the Standardbred article than here.  At the moment, the gaited Standardbred thing isn't all that big, though I suspect that the rescue/rehoming of old racehorses may see it increase (pacers probably all gait when they slow down, actually, as the "amble" is basically just a pace broken down into four beats, not two, kind of like the Icelandics' tolt and flying pace, I suspect).  Maybe in a few more years, things will have grown to the point that the question can be reconsidered.  Montanabw(talk) 20:40, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I respect your opinion in this! The ambling already has a short mention on the STB article, I hope you don't mind if I expand it a little bit. You're correct in that it's a four-beat pace gait, identical to the tölt in footfalls. Thanks very much for the discussion! Nimloth250 (talk) 08:32, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no problem mentioning it in the Standardbred article.  It is wisest to have some good source material that isn't from a commercial breeding farm, but it's a real point of interest to those interested in the breed, I think.  Montanabw(talk) 21:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding the Standardbred 

message: In actuality the diagonal front landing before the diagonal back is considered a fault in the gait.  Though this is sometimes seen, the correct version of the gait is when the diagonal back lands a split second BEFORE the diagonal front.  This creates a gentle up and down rocking motion in the front of the saddle while the back remain steady...thus the saddle rocks up and down NOT forward and back.
Now IF the front is first and the front foot catches in uneven ground...then the result is that the back foot is not yet in place and the horse can stumble to the ground.  BUT if the back foot is already placed then the horse is far less likely to stumble to the ground.  This is what gives the fox trot its sure footedness in uneven ground that the fox trotter is famous for.....and is why THEY are the preferred horse on rugged trails.
Now with all that said....I will concede that there are two distinct lines of fox trotters and two distinct types of fox trots.  One is the performance lines.  These do tend to fox trot in the 'new' method described in your article.  But the original fox trotters executed the fox trot in the manner I mentioned and this is still the fox trot that is seen in the versatility lines of fox trotters.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.121.253.159 (talk) 01:16, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you provide us a written source for this?  We'd be glad to explain both versions if we can verify the information per WP:V policy.  Montanabw(talk) 15:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Read WP:V and WP:RS to see what we need; we need things that are, for example, published as a magazine article, or a rule book description,or something on a breed registry site. Montanabw(talk) 00:36, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

text: Old rulebooks can be fascinating.  I recenltly found a rulebook from the old AHSA (now USEF) from the 70s in an old box.  Interesting what has and has not changed. Shoeing stuff can be particularly fascinating.  Montanabw(talk) 04:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  fox trot. 

message: A few questions/comments, posting here for additional discussion/source finding:
* Faroe pony suggests that Susan Harris's Horse Gaits, Balance and Movement may have something covering breeds besides the Icelandic that tolt, perhaps on pages 50-55? Can this be used to source or rewrite as necessary the last paragraph of the Tolt section? User:Montanabw, I think I've seen you adding stuff from this source before? 
* Deb Bennett needs page numbers. Again, Montana, I think this is yours?
* I can't find anything on horses with the stepping pace being specially selected for use transporting wounded soldiers off battlefields. Anyone have this in their sources, or should we remove it?
* Ref #13 (Hartman, Karen) needs to be removed, it's un-RS. I already replaced a couple instances, so now the only thing left is the two places where she is used to compare the smoothness of various types of ambling. Anyone have this in their sources?
Other than the above, the Rack section needs to be sourced and the lead expanded and I think the article will be in quite good shape. I'm planning to work on those two things today or early next week. After that, GAN? Pinging in User:Montanabw, User:Ealdgyth (if interested) for comments. Dana boomer (talk) 17:59, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't remember if I own Harris' book on gaits or not, I'll go dig, if I've used it, I probable own it.... I'll do pages on Bennett now, I'm annoyed that she's apparently pulled the Google Books version (I'm rather annoyed at Bennett in general at the moment, for other reasons but this is symptomatic of her attitude these days). Meh.  I'll look about for other things. Montanabw(talk) 22:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

text: Found most of the Bennett stuff, added more, but still can't source two things it's very frustrating that the google books version is gone because the index of that book totally sucks and it's tough to find all the material absent a word search feature.  She's also been proven (again) from more recent DNA studies to be full of it in a couple of areas (notably her assessment of cantering ability of gaited horses). I pitched what was left of the Hartman material, it's mostly just "my gaited breed is better than your gaited breed" snark.  Absent better sources, I think the article is not going to suffer from the loss. Still digging on the stepping pace, my guess is gaited horses generally in the Civil War had their place... Montanabw(talk) 01:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ongoing cleanup 

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message: Japanese postmen (hikyaku) in the Edo Period ran in  "namba" style with their right hand and right leg, left hand and left leg moving forward at the same time similar to the forefoot rear foot movements of horses ambling, for similar reasons to ambling -- long distance travel over poor roads.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.251.155.28 (talk) 11:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Human Ambling?

message: I am under the impression that ambling was useful not only for the comfort it provided for long trips but also for the stability it offered for mounted archers, during various historical periods. Am I wrong ? --Japarthur (talk) 08:10, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usefulness for mounted archers ?