Talk:Film noir

message: section it should be tagged/removed as appropriate. I'd encourage you to either tag the sentences or bring them to the talk page in this section so they can be discussed.--Crossmr (talk) 03:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't take this comment the wrong way.  But if Pulp Fiction is film noir then The Wizard of Oz is a costume drama. Kjaer (talk) 02:01, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the benchmark is here whether reputable media/literatur calls a particular movie film noir or not. Whether personally agree with that or not doesn't really matter for WP.--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Well, the benchmark actually happens when the reader does the research.  There is a separate article on Pulp Fiction, the movie.  In that article, some historians and critics consider it neo-noir.  According to that article, the following experts do not; Geoffrey O'Brien, Nicholas Christopher, and Foster Hirsch.  No one would say it is noir.  And note to author above of second paragraph, Richard Widmark was in a film called "Night and the City."  L. Thomas W. (talk) 15:26, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Identifying noir" 

message: There really ought to be some mention of Danny Boyle's contribution to the modern dark cinema (neo-noir) movement, coming strongly out of the UK and Channel Four Films. Titles such as "Trainspotting" and "A Life Less Ordinary" are DEFINING films in the movement. I am literally shocked not to see Boyle and at least one of these films mentioned in this article. --Maximilian77 (talk) 23:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Danny Boyle and Trainspotting" 

message: Might it be worthwhile to mention the Big Lebowski as a noir parody?  The Cohen brothers go so far as to include a private eye character who eventually directly expresses his admiration for the titular character for making all of the moves a noir private eye makes, and is flatly refused and ignored by the title character.  Any noir fan who sees the scene immediately makes the connection, in my experience.210.174.6.89 (talk) 11:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: They talk about wanting to reference an incomprehensible Chandler story ala The Big Sleep as well. BUT there's already a lot of mention of the Cohens, so maybe we could use the space for other films. KellenT 00:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Is running out of space on the internet an issue? :-) 173.174.85.204 (talk) 00:39, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: The Big Lebowski

message: Things such as "Neo-noir/Take 2: Sharon Stone as Catherine Tramell, a femme fatale for the 1990s—and the ages—in the smash box-office hit Basic Instinct"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.146.184 (talk) 20:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The first has been rewritten. The second is not "tacked on". It "really has to do" with something significant: the links between classic noir and latter-day variations on the genre.—DCGeist (talk) 10:39, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Some things are sounding a bit subjective

message: After some deliberation I have decided the  tag is most appropriate for this article, although the  or  could also apply. The problem is this article keeps expressing opinions but giving no attribution whatseover, which runs afowl of core policies like WP:V and WP:N I consider the following lines to instances where, without any reference, this article makes opinionated claims:
* "Few neo-noirs have made more money or more wittily updated the tradition of the noir double-entendre than Basic Instinct..."
* "Perhaps no contemporary films better reflect the classic noir A-movie-with-a-B-movie-soul than those of director-writer Quentin Tarantino"
* "Joel and Ethan Coen have created one of the most substantial film oeuvres influenced by classic noir"
* "The mainstreaming of neo-noir is evident in such films as Black Widow (1987), Shattered (1991), and Final Analysis (1992)"
* "Like Chinatown, its more complex predecessor, Curtis Hanson's Oscar-winning L.A. Confidential (1997)... demonstrates an opposite tendency—the deliberately retro film noir; its tale of corrupt cops and femme fatales is seemingly lifted straight from a movie of 1953, the year in which it is set.
* "Martin Scorsese and screenwriter Paul Schrader brought the noir attitude crashing into the present day with Taxi Driver..."
I guess most of these claims are probably mostly accurate, but they're still opinions. We need to know whose opinions they are... otherwise this is an essay, not an encyclopedia article. These are just some examples... although if they are addressed I will consent to removing the essay tag. --Chiliad22 (talk) 17:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: With or without your "consent", the essay tag has been removed. The article is copiously sourced. You are arguing that several assertions require recasting or inline citations. That's fair--please tag those individually within the article so they can be specifically addressed. DocKino (talk) 17:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to convert to fact tags, fine... but the essay tag still applies until at least these problematic claims are addressed. Having a bunch of references in some parts doesn't excuse having an essay in other parts... it's not like I could add my own unreferenced opinion to Barack Obama just because the article, in general, is "copiously sourced". I suggest you actually address my concerns or leave the tags up... trying to dance your way out of a content complaint really won't work with me, if you check my edit history. --Chiliad22 (talk) 17:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have checked your edit history. I see you've been editing on Wikipedia for less than three months. That explains a lot. Spare us the edit summary lectures about what's "unacceptable". What "works with you" is of little concern to anyone, as are your notions about the import of your "consent" and your interest in dancing. What works for the encyclopedia is what counts. When you learn to take yourself less importantly, come on back. DocKino (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So this has devolved into because you've been active on Wikipedia for longer, you get to do whatever you want with articles? You're becoming very incivil and ignoring the content issue. I'm not going to go away just because you make rude comments. --Chiliad22 (talk) 18:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

text: DocKino, this is an unacceptable violation of the Civility policy. Please stop making comments in this vein, and consider striking out the personal attacks above. Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Your incivility is completely inappropriate DocKino. There are now three editors, counting myself and the one who re-added the essay tag most recently, who agree that the article devolves into an essay and should be cleaned up. Your incivility and attacking a fellow editor based on how long he has been editing Wikipedia does nothing to help your case. Your condescending tone and blatant incivility on your post above dated 18:12 29 June does not "work for the encyclopedia" and therefore you should take care to avoid such behavior in the future. The Seeker 4 Talk 18:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

text:  I also agree that the article reads as an essay. Also, 35 inline citations for an article of this length is a pretty weak showing. Citing and quoting the classic noir theorists directly shouldn't be too hard. KellenT 18:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I've addressed each of the points raised by Chiliad at the beginning of this thread. If there are other, similar concerns, I have ready access to most of the major sources and am happy to address them. Best, Dan.—DCGeist (talk) 16:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Essay tag 

message: How can we discuss the genre and not put in the classic modern film Angel Heart this is the ultimate illustration of film noir.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.207.35.246 (talk) 19:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Angel Heart not included as iconic modern example

message: The movie Mulholland Falls could be covered too (not to be confused with Mulholland Drive). And would The Reflecting Skin qualify as a film noir? 84.174.236.166 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 08:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to create a new section on my proposal but I'll just add to this... I think that the Bantam Street production Dark and Stormy Night (2009) should be added to the Parodies section. For those that have seen the movie or clips of it, do you think it could be classified as a film noir? BTW, I've seen the movie and it rocks (the two "Skeleton" movies are awesome as well). Venku Tur'Mukan (talk) 03:28, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Do any sources refer to it as a noir parody, or relate it to film noir in a similar way?—DCGeist (talk) 09:05, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

text: I see that someone has put "Wonder Man" back in the article. Whatever. I explained the reasons for taking it out. 162.89.0.47 (talk)Eric  —Preceding undated comment added 17:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Additions?

message: Kudos to the authors of this article. It’s clearly organized, eminently readable, and almost overwhelmingly complete. –jacobolus (t) 21:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fantastically comprehensive 

message: I agree mentioning or quoting Dicko might not be justified and is definitely not need. However I don't agree with deleting his book from the sources or further reading list after it is fairly recent academic publication on the overall subject, which to me at first glance at least justifies an entry under further reading.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is and has been listed under further reading and has never been removed. DocKino (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh I just looked at the deletion in version comparison, without noting that it was listed twice before. Nevermind then--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:14, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Dicko and the almost edit war

message: I'm not a habitual Wikipedian, so excuse me if I'm transgressing any conventions.
It's my understanding that Nino Frank's use of the adjective "noir" in his famous article is a reference to a series of translations of American crime novels published in France from 1945 that used distinctive black covers, and were known collectively as "la série noire" ("the black series") and individually as "romans noirs" ("black novels"). This is very much like the use of "Gialli" in Italian to refer to the style of novels originally published in yellow covers.
While the choice of black for the book covers was surely no accident, and the connotations of the colour relate clearly to the themes of a typical film noir and the chiaroscuro style of cinematography, Frank's use of the word is simply drawing an analogy between the content and style of the films and the content and style of the novels via the colour of the novels' covers. This is discussed in various published sources (for example, Anne-Françoise Lesuisse's "Du Film Noir au Noir") and clarifies the translation of "noir" as "black" (rather than "dark").
The French "film noir" Wikipedia page and the English Wikipedia page for hardboiled fiction both mention La Série Noire, as does Nino Frank's English Wikipedia page. Shouldn't it be mentioned here?
82.123.197.46 (talk) 12:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well if you have the sources at hand you could edit/add it yourself, but please no unsourced edit. However it might have to be taken in account as well that nowadays  (at least in German) the term "la série noire"/"the black series"/"schwarze Serie" is also used to simply denote the string of Hollywood crime movies rather than any related novels.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:09, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  82's understanding of the relation in nomenclature between film noir and la série noire is accurate and easy enough to source if we wanted to add it. It was my sense that this was a level of detail too minute and tangential to include in this overview article on the film style; it also does not fit readily into any particular section of the article's current structure. However, if the consensus is that it should be included, I have no problem with that at all--I'd just want us to work out here where would be best.—DCGeist (talk) 19:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Would a subsection "Origin of the Term" under the current "Background" section be appropriate? Most of the second paragraph of the current article could then be included under that heading. It seems to me that "why noir?" is a natural question to ask. A more thorough discussion of the origin and history of the term would seem to have a place in an article of this scope. 82.123.197.46 (talk) 20:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  La Série Noire 

message: Could «The Crow» (1994, starring Brandon Lee), be considered as a Neo-Noir film? Throughout the internet there are some sources pro, and some sources anti. In my opinion it just is or isn't. Is it that easy to explain, or is the aforementioned film a borderline case? 「Robster1983」☞ Life's short, talk fast ☜ 15:22, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Crow = neo-noir? 

message: Should tech noir be linked here, or explained in brief? Wnt (talk) 03:11, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tech noir 

message: I am shocked to see a front page article with a pornographic picture that had nothing to do with Film Noir, I hope someone can relink the original photo back to its original picture. 5:50 2 October, 2011 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.141.215.20 (talk)  
:Porno image removed. Correct image reference is Image:BigComboTrailer.jpg false image ref was File:BigComboTrailer.jpg 
:Maybe someone needs to watch their 'file' and 'image' tag editing?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.249.0.242 (talk) 10:27, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Assorted vandals have been replacing the Big Combo trailer with pornographic images, but these have different file names. The prefix has nothing to do with it, see WP:IMAGE. Favonian (talk) 10:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks guys, it seemed very innapropriate to have a featured page with scenes of pornography unrelated to the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.141.215.20 (talk) 12:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pornographic Picture unrelated to article for some time. 

message: The lead seems to suggest the criteria for film noir, is that it is a hollywood movie, I don't think that is true. Tinynanorobots (talk) 19:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on your definition. There are noir-ish films made in other countries but classic film noir were only made in Hollywood. The term was invented to describe films made in Hollywood. See the section on Film_noir#Problems_of_definition -- SteveCrook (talk) 21:29, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

text: No, I disagree.  Not all classic films noir were made in Hollywood.  The Third Man, British, 1949, directed by Carol Reed, is classified as a classic film noir of the classic period.  This is a British film, part of which was filmed in postwar Vienna.  The American Film Institute's 10 Top 10 included it as # 5 in its Mystery section.  (Three of the films listed there are films noir; The Maltese Falcon, Laura, and the Third Man.)  L. Thomas W. (talk) 14:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

text: I disagree as well. The French noir films are just as good as Hollywood. "Bob le Flambeur," "Ascenseur pour l'chafaud" (Elevator to the Gallows) and "Shoot the Piano Player" are all classics. 173.174.85.204 (talk) 21:47, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hollywood 

message: I'm pretty sure the photograph of Marlene Dietrich used in the 'Cinematic sources' section is a promo shot for Morocco and not for Der Blaue Engel (as it says in the caption). Could anyone check up on that?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.241.210.203 (talk) 20:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Check the DVD cover. No sign of her wearing a top hat in Morocco -- SteveCrook (talk) 21:24, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, i just thought she wore this outfit while singing 'Quand L'Amour Meurt' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO0h190oboE  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.241.210.100 (talk) 07:29, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please sign your contributionsIt looks like she did wear the same suit in Morocco. You'll have to do some research and find out which file that is a publicity shot for -- SteveCrook (talk) 07:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is my error, I believe, which I'll now correct. She unquestionably wears this outfit in Morocco. I just watched the entire English-language version of The Blue Angel, and she does not wear this sort of tuxedo in that film.—DCGeist (talk) 19:01, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marlene Dietrich photograph 

message: This section has been changed *greatly* since the GA review, and I am not at all sure the changes, most especially this latest change in removing the plot-based description, are an improvement.  I have restored this once, but it has been removed again.  I'll leave it out, briefly, unless there is further support for removal.  It seems key.User talk:Unfriend12 23:23, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree see above.--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:30, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of the identifying bit. 

message: Maximilianklein (talk) 23:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: WorldCat Genres

message: The screen grab of The Big Combo is the only image demonstrating the characteristic visuals of the genre included in the article, and is thus ideal for the opening. For that reason I have reverted the change of IP 108.65.152.120, a few hours ago, to an image of Humnphrey Bogart from the trailer of The Maltese Falcon. We already have two images of Bogart in the article, which given the need to represent the whole genre, is sufficient. The image of him with Lauren Bacall from The Big Sleep could be better, but Wikimedia Commons does not contain another photograph of them together from that film. There are some superior images of them from To Have and Have Not and Dark Passage which are potential substitutions. Philip Cross (talk) 06:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: First image

message: While admittedly there are dark overtones to The Dark Knight films, I don't see how a Batman film can be called a film noir. It's about a comic book character. They've got huge budgets and millions spent on special effects. They are  cartoonish. Just because a protagonist has inner conflicts and lives in a claustrophobic, depressing environment, doesn't make a movie a film noir. Typically, in a film noir, the hero does not put on a rubber suit and fight crime against comic book villains. What's next, Spiderman? 69.125.134.86 (talk) 23:25, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite so. Removed the Batman Begins/The Dark Knight reference. Philip Cross (talk) 23:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Batman possibly could be characterized as neo-noir which sometimes is used for other genres outside the classic film noir that have extensively applied noir elements or probably more often as genre noir like tech-noir, sf-noir or comic noir, the latter three might be a good fit for movies like Batmen, Daredevil (more the series than the movie), Watchmen or Sin City. --Kmhkmh (talk) 07:40, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I recently tried to get mention of "noir"' into The Batman article, but was shot down.  --  Pete Best Beatles (talk) 06:25, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Batman? 

message: USA Today has a good review of a new television episode which was filmed in noir style aimed at a young audience Bachcell (talk) 04:08, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Pretty Little Liars 

message: Yes, I know this talk page isn't a forum, but I saw this and thought Wikipedians might be interested in and/or benefit from it: https://www.canvas.net/browse/bsu/tcm/courses/film-noir. -- Softlavender (talk) 04:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  TCM free online course on film noir, begins June 1, 2015 

message: The Maltese Falcon to "Body of Lies": Spies, Noirs, and Trust by Robert von Hallberg, 2015, University of New Mexico Press Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 20:55, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New book on film noir 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: How to connect wifi in china Fu yuan yu 21 (talk) 12:45, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Please ask this at some other website. -- Hoary (talk) 12:48, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  english 

message: An article was recently created for film noir innovator Boris Ingster, director of Stranger on the Third Floor. This new article needs more biographical information about his studies in Russia in the 1920s, his work with Sergei Eisenstein in 1930 in France, and his 1930s screenwriting in the US. More quality sources are needed, and a non-copyrighted or fair use photo of Ingster would be good. Thanks.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:19, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: All articles need work? I'm not sure why you are posting this. Ceoil (talk) 20:24, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I am soliciting film noir-interested editors to work on a new article (created a few days ago) which is pertinent to film noir. Ingster has been called the director of the first noir. OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:30, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, all of the accounts of the editor that wrote this page are long blocked. Ceoil (talk) 21:22, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: New Boris Ingster article needs more biography, references, photo

message: "Bad girl movies" is a completely unsourced list of noir films. I propose that any sourced content (possibly nothing) be merged into Film noir, and the page redirected. pburka (talk) 18:28, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Pinging , , , , all of whom have been active on that article's talk page in the past. pburka (talk) 18:42, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Since there were no objections, and the page was still unsourced, I've redirected the page here. There was no referenced content, so nothing was merged. pburka (talk) 16:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge of [[Bad girl movies]] into [[Film noir]] 

message: — Assignment last updated by Elyonn (talk) 03:06, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Wiki Education assignment: 22S-DIS STD-M114- Variable Topics in Performance and Disability Studies

message: Ppprru, Kyleighkimbrell, Erikp246, and Elyonn:
The following student contribution makes some good points, but there are problems with grammar, formatting, sources, and an added image that should be corrected before it is made a part of the film noir article. --Jeremy Butler (talk) 11:49, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Student contribution moved here

message: I removed "vulgar auterism" from the See also section. It's defined as "championing or reappraising  filmmakers, mostly those working in horror and action genres...assessing 'unserious' artistry of popcorn cinema..." Doesn't sound like film noir to me, and the term must not be in the article or it wouldn't be in See also.  --  Pete Best Beatles (talk) 07:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vulgar auteurism 

message: In the 6th paragraph of the Classic period section, Directors and the business of noir sub-section, there is this sentence: "Serving as producer, writer, director and top-billed performer, Hugo Haas made films like Pickup (1951), The Other Woman (1954) and Jacques Tourneur, The Fearmakers (1958). "Jacques Tourneur" is not a film Hugo Haas made. I assume the sentence is trying to say Jacques Tourneur made The Fearmakers in a manner simmilar to the way in which Haas made his films, but it's going to need some more words, and I don't want to be the one to add them because I really don't know exactly what the editor was trying to say. Any thoughts?  --  Pete Best Beatles (talk) 21:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Convoluted sentence 

message: Since the lead uses "films noir" for the plural of "film noir", I've edited the rest of the article to reflect this.  --  Pete Best Beatles (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Films noir