Talk:Damnatio memoriae

message: Damnatio memoriae is mentioend by several modern historians, but I am unsure if it truly existed in such as official capacity.  How often did the State really act in condemning an emperor?  For instance, Nero was declared an enemy of the state during Galba's rebellion, but then given a large funeral.  His collosus and other statues were erected after his death.  Later emperors chose to trash some of his statues, but there was no edict to do so.
:Not only emperors were condemned to damnatio memoriae. People like Sejanus and Livilla also suffered this penalty after their death. No statues from Sejanus currently survive (at least none that I know), and most of the coins that were struck to commemorate his consulship have his name erased. --Steerpike 18:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Did it really exist?

message: I've added info about the attack on Hapshepsut's memory by her nephew/co-regent Thutmose III. It wasn't quite damnatio memoriae, but it's worth keeping here for the contrast.--Joseph.nobles 06:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hapshepsut 

message: I'm not saying that there's any intentional deceit here, but the bottom photo doesn't look like a "retouching" of the first photo (e.g., the color of the water, the position of the man behind Stalin, etc.). Samer (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stalin photos 

message: Neither in Scandinavia nor in German-speaking countries does anybody call their babies Adolf (after the German dictator Adolf Hitler). Should this be considered an act of Damnatio Memoriae? 
85.200.128.34 (talk) 00:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is actually proof that memory of Adolf is still alive enough to hinder parents from giving their kids that name. You don't call your son "nazi guy", that's rather a matter of taste. With a true damnatio memoriae on Mr Hitler, what would popular history books in Germany be about? Booksellers, tv stations and half the print media would go bancrupt. I doubt there's any other longseller on so many fields like that one. --2.240.2.179 (talk) 20:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adolf 

message: When talking about Dune universe, one needs to declare if he means Frank Herbert's Dune Universe or Brian Gerbert & Kevin Anderson one. Thus, we need a source on this one. 91.76.182.85 (talk) 14:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dune Universe 

message: I think the section on the Jewish curse "may his name be erased" needs to be reworked. Saying this is the worst curse possible and then saying Jews have pronounced it on Christ is unnecessarily inflammatory.
Without getting into the accuracy of the statement itself, I think it is safe to say it is not necessary to include the reference in this unrelated article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.247.248.64 (talk) 04:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: But this is true. The phrase ימח שמו וזכרו is indeed a noted curse in Jewish culture. It was created as a back acronym, the initial letters spelling out the word Yeshu, the Hebrew form of Jesus; and it is used as the ultimate put-down. I have restored the edit.RolandR (talk) 14:45, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you cite the restored edit since you have reinserted it and seem to know something about it?Heiro 15:25, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There are plenty of Google references to this phrase and usage. Most of these are in Hebrew, and I have no time to translate them at present; but this is something I learned long ago as a child. I'm sure that, among Jews, it is common knowledge. Among the references in English, there is one applying this curse to Richard Silverstein, a liberal Jewish critic of Israel; another  applying it to Fidel Castro, and one applying it to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Among the Hebrew references, there are several applying this curse to Jesus and Hitler, and even some applying it to Theodor Herzl! RolandR (talk) 19:05, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus Christ 

message: There's been a very similar move by World Wrestling Entertainment as regards the late Chris Benoit - all references to Benoit have been removed from WWE's website, save for a name on a list of past champions.  98.192.97.233 (talk) 01:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Chris Benoit

message: Does Milli Vanilli qualify? They basically disappeared after the backlash they received from the scandal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.104.66.29 (talk) 03:09, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not exactly. That was more due to the passage of time than an active attempt to erase memory of them.--Yaksar (let's chat) 03:43, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Milli Vanilli 

message: Hello, I think we should be more selective with the list. Damnatio memoriae means to erase the public memory of a person. If a street is no longer named after certain persons it this not to compare with the extinction of public memory in Soviet Union.--Ziko (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If a few street names were changed, then I would agree that it is not damn. mem. but rather giving honor to the the newly named people.  But the disputed paragraph couples this with removal of statues: "Public buildings and streets named after nationalist personalities were renamed and statues of Francisco Franco and other nationalist leaders were removed."  Clearly a decision was made by the people who ordered the renaming and removal to erase Franco's name from public memory.  Greensburger (talk) 18:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference is that the Spanish people is not supposed to forget about the Franco nationalists. These will be dealt with also in future in history books, in newspapers etc. But in Soviet Union the inhabitants were supposed to forget the disgraced persons, not to mention them etc. They were erased even from encyclopedias. As if they had never existed. That's the whole point of damnatio memoriae.--Ziko (talk) 11:25, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  List 

message: I think it would really help the article if the "Similar practices in other societies" section was put in some sort of order. Chronological order seems the most likely but it could also be geographic. Right now, it's a bit jarring to jump from one millennium to another, from the UK to Greece and back. 63.143.216.178 (talk) 20:50, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization? 

message: Not sure is this one has been at all successful (yet anyway) This is the first time I've even heard of an attempt to rename it and I've never heard of the alternative. Talltim (talk) 10:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway it would still be a simple renaming and in no way a damnatio memoriae. Should not be in the list. Probably the renaming of streets in Spain does not fit in either. The term is about erasing somebody from history (or trying to), not about removing public symbols that are honouring the "wrong" people. --2.240.2.179 (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heimlich manoeuvre  

message: How should we move the part about Norwegian Jarl from the "Modern" section?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.251.124.170 (talk) 14:46, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. I noticed the same thing myself. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 08:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move info from "modern" to "ancient" 

message: The article says: Also in Argentina in the year 2003 following the election of President Néstor Kirchner, there was a widespread effort to show the illegality of Jorge Rafael Videla's rule. The government no longer recognized Videla as having been a legal president of the country, and his portrait was removed from the National Argentinian military school.
The assertion is correct, but I'm wondering if it is relevant as a practice of damnatio memoriae? Videla's name is mentioned on almost a daily basis by the press aligned with the ruling party in Argentina (e.g. www.pagina12.com.ar). Then there doesn't seem to be any process of damnatio memoriae related to Videla's name. Quite the contrary, the memory of his name and others members of the Juntas are very much remembered, although, of course, with a negative valence. However, the valence of the memory is not what damnatio memoriae is about, if I correctly understood the concept. 193.205.207.35 (talk) 17:57, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is there a ''damnatio memoriae'' with Videla in Argentina? 

message: Is it possible that the reason that Moses and the Exodus do not appear in the ancient history is because of Damnatio memoriae?--Splashen (talk) 14:35, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Current archaeological thought indicates that the Exodus never happened. It could be possible that the Israelite transition to monotheism was caused by Akhenaten and evidence of this might have been destroyed when Akhenaten and the worship of the Aten suffered damnatio as the Amarna period ended. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:10, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exodus...? 

message: In the section on modern usage, the item on usage in Judaism may have a transliteration error. The transliteration is "Yimach Shmo Ve-Zichro" and the Hebrew text is ייתכן ששמו וזכרונו להימחק. Calling my Hebrew terrible would be a complement, but even I can tell that the two don't match up; the first word, transliterated as "yimach" is spelled yod-yod-tav-kaf-nun. The third word ends with a nun-vav that does not appear in the transliteration. The last Hebrew word, lamed-he-yod-mem-het-kof, doesn't appear in the transliteration at all.
Can someone who knows Hebrew much better than me please correct one or the other (or both)? Dead Horsey (talk) 02:48, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern usage in Judaism 

message: I recall visiting Madame Taussauds in London several decades ago and seeing the wax figure of Hitler, alone in a glass case, on the stairway leading from the upstairs rooms depicting famous people down to the Chamber of Horrors depicting infamous ones. This location, and the fact that the figure had no label identifying him, seemed to me a fitting observance of his uniquely evil position in history.  The absence of a label, in a museum where other famous people are clearly identified, would be an example of damnatio memoriae.  In hopes of eliciting documentation of this, I will add this as to the list of modern examples of damnatio memoriae.CharlesHBennett (talk) 11:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unlabeled Hitler at Madame Taussauds 

message: Bruce Jenner's murder victim.  No criminal charges, he/she/it didn't show up to court when sued for wrongful death, and now tabloids want to deny any mention of her name because it's inconvenient to the Jenner "hero" narrative.  Qualifier?
107.5.70.39 (talk) 05:19, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Only if you can find a reliable, published source that makes this assertion and somehow connects it to damnatio memoriae.  As of now, this is just your theory. General Ization Talk    12:25, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Kim Howe?

message: This seems heavily OR. This article should focus on the Roman custom. I suggest the examples, except ones from the Roman times, are removed form here; some can be merged to Historical_revisionism_(negationism)#Examples. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:22, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similar practices in other societies 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Bolesław the Forgotten: "According to the chronicle he was killed because of his extreme cruelty, and sentenced to the Damnatio memoriae.". Shouldn't it be mentioned in this article? 83.13.239.255 (talk) 12:41, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bolesław the Forgotten 

message: The sentence " Subsequent attempts to expunge public memory of Savile have included the vandalism of commemorative plaques and properties that he once owned." I am not sure this follows as trying to remove his memory, unless there is a citation it is more likely to have been angry vandalism.  There is no effort to expunge Saville, almost the opposite.  So I will remove the above if no-one complains.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ei2g (talk • contribs) 16:23, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jimmy Saville 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The "Modern" section is filled with examples that are either not cases of damnatio memoriae and/or are trivial.  Removing one official portrait from an exhibit or taking photos down from an official from a website is not damnatio memoriae, particularly is that person is still alive.  Serious sources (e.g. those found in Google Books results) turn up almost no instances of these terms associated with these personages.  This issue has been raised before by User:Ziko and User:Greensburger here and by User:Piotrus here with no changes to the article.  Does anyone have a defense of this list?  —  AjaxSmack  02:41, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we have a clear consensus to remove this WP:OR.  --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the worst yesterday. I'm not sure I think I'd want to see many more removed. Just removing website info etc doesn't qualify, but I think selective doctoring of artworks etc is worth keeping. Johnbod (talk) 14:17, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If the cited source does not mention damnatio memoriae by name, that's probably WP:SYNTH or WP:OR.  —  AjaxSmack  01:21, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: No, like most such allegations, it probably means a proper search (not just by google) has not been done. Johnbod (talk) 01:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Then those sources found in the Google search should be used.  I searched a number of them myself before starting this discussion.  While I could usually find a few mentions in blogs and their ilk, it is difficult to find mentions in more reliable sources.   —  AjaxSmack  03:06, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

text: There's one modern example I can give of an unofficial damnatiio memoriae that could be used to show how such a thing can be done even without official action: Food Network's attempt to pretend that Mario Batali never appeared on any of their shows, to the extent of re-working the opening of early episodes of Iron Chef America to remove any shots of him competing.  This could be done without actually asserting that this is an official action, just that it's an action taken by the company that owns the rights to the show.JDZeff (talk) 19:33, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern examples are original research 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: But I have no idea how to frame it so it doesn't become epic troll bait. - Immigrant laborer (talk) 17:40, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, certainly. The connection is being made in lots of sources - e.g. The Federalist, cited by Slate. StAnselm (talk) 19:33, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

text: This opinion piece makes the connection in a positive way. StAnselm (talk) 19:43, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

text: StAnselm (talk) 22:58, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  There should probably be some discussion of the Confederate memorials in the U.S... 

message: This is a latin phrase, and a Roman practice. As such, "modern examples" are impossible, since the Roman Empire does not exist. The other examples listed are all very interesting, but are off topic. The examples should go to their relevant articles. Harizotoh9 (talk) 17:59, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Off topic examples: 

message: New Zealand PM Jacinda Ardern vows never to say the name of the perpetrator of the Christchurch mosque shooting of 15 Mar 2019.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111403410/pm-jacinda-ardern-promises-to-never-speak-alleged-christchurch-shooters-name
http://time.com/5554057/new-zealand-jacinda-ardern-mosque-shooter-name/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.92.124.23 (talk) 09:44, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  21st-century example 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:23, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion 

message: Those two articles are about the same concept, the latter popularized through 1984 and perhaps more common in modern English, likely due to being easier to spell/remember. Thoughts? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with [[memory hole]] 

message: The list of condemned Roman emperors is to be merged here per WP:Articles for deletion/List of condemned Roman emperors. 
It seems to me that the scope outlined in the lead of the  list article is narrower than the entries in the list suggest; in particular Nero and Caligula have arguably not been subject of a senate decree to erase their memory.
I think one should either trim the list to clearly verifiable subjects of pertinent senate decrees and then include the list article as a section here, or one rephrases the lead and keeps a larger list.
Does anyone here have any thoughts or opinions?
 Felix QW (talk) 19:19, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of condemned Roman emperors 

message: I plan to record a spoken version of the article soon.  Any feedback is welcomed. 0101Abc (talk) 03:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoken Article