Talk:Die Forelle

message: On July 24, User:Magicitrus added this sentence to the article Die Forelle:
:Die Forelle is a perfect marriage of Classical Form and Romatic content in two related works.
which struck me as a meaningless weasel peacock phrase. I'm going to delete it if it doesn't get re-written. Michael Bednarek 00:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. DavidRF 17:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Magicitrus]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Die_Forelle&oldid=146577023 July 24]

message: I'm putting my comments here, but by all means move them to the article talk page if you prefer. The Lied is not my strong suit (though I'm anybody's for a Fauré mélodie) so I offer these few comments from the commanding heights of sheer ignorance:
*I think it may be worth mentioning other famous songs from the same year: Graham Johnson lists Der Tod und das Mädchen and An die Musik. (Notes to Hyperion CD "Schubert in 1817–1818", CDJ33021 (1994) – one of the few CDs of Lieder on my shelves.)
*Date: Johnson says "early 1817", not summer. Reed (p. 159) says that the earliest copies date from the spring of 1817.
*Also perhaps relevant that though Schubart's last stanza makes it plain that the narrator is male, in the verses Schubert set it is not possible to say from the text whether the narrator is a man or a woman (see Kramer). Thus the song has been sung by many famous singers of both sexes. Elena Gerhardt comes to mind just as much as Fischer-Dieskau, for example.
*I see Reed's one-line music example bears the tempo direction "Etwas lebhaft", which is worth mentioning, perhaps. A good pianist keeps the brook babbling in a lively way throughout. 
*Tangentially, I have just played through a CD of the Coriolan Overture and I'm blest if I spotted anything that Schubert might have unconsciously pinched. Do any of your sources say which bit Ebner was referring to?
:*I'm glad it wasn't just me then! No, sadly the source dwells on the dramatic news of a near-destruction, and not on any of the useful details. - SchroCat (talk) 12:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: *Many thanks, Tim: I hope I've done justice to your very kind thoughts! All taken on board, dealt with and it looks strong enough for the GAN I've filed for it. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Brief comments from Tim riley

message: I think the heading says it all. George8211 conversations 10:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure the MoS suggests song titles should be italicised, but instead appear, in text at least, in quotation marks. - SchroCat (talk) 10:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

text: I have the same understanding. However, I don't know if "song" means also this "lied" which in German might be termed not Lied but Kunstlied (art song), to distinguish from Volkslied (folk song). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it still comes under the more general classification of song here? Looking at Wikipedia:QUOTEMARK, it suggest songs and poems are held in quotes, which suggests that a lied would also fall into this category - tending to be poems set to music. - SchroCat (talk) 10:43, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur: songs in quotes, song cycles in italics. However, there is a conflict with MOS:FOREIGN and WP:MOSTEXT#Foreign terms (and that's probably why George8211 raised the matter), but this is mostly disregarded for songs/Lieder (although opera arias, when used in synopses, are mainly, but not always, done in italics; my preference for aria names is also quotes.) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:italic title|italic title]]}}? 

message: It's generally not considered synthesis for an editor to translate the lyrics. I speak enough German and am knowledgeable enough about poetry and form, and Gerda is German with a great command of English. She and I could possibly collaborate to provide a translation to accompany Schubart's poem for the article.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: see also - in short: Moonraker is the one if it should be done, but for Bach, we don't do it but link to an available translation, quoting in the article only relevant parts, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:07, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Either approach would meet the GA criteria, I think (new translation by editors or external link to translation). I'm fine with whatever the consensus here is. -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm easy either way: there is a EL to a translation in there currently, which means we at least covered for information. - SchroCat (talk) 15:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation of lyrics

message: Does the sex of the narrator always need to coincide with the sex of the singer? I doubt this was a requirement in Schubert's time: if it did, The Shepherd on the Rock wouldn't have been written for a soprano, and Vogl would not have been "a famous exponent of Ellen's Ave Maria". Even though these probably coincide more often today, it then does not really make sense to say that Schubert's removal of the final stanza was meant to allow female singers to sing Die Forelle: that was most probably not his intention. Double sharp (talk) 11:55, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: (In case I ever need another example: the autograph of Die Rose D 745 has the vocal staff in the tenor clef. Nothing to do with this sentence in particular, which was resolved last year.) Double sharp (talk) 08:59, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

text: The sentence is referenced, though. Can anybody verify Kramer Franz Schubert: Sexuality, Subjectivity, Song , p. 82? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:03, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I did when I wrote it. I shall try and find the reference again and post a full quote to verify. - SchroCat (talk) 12:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

text: From the Google Books except of Kramer: (Kramer, p.82) The reference here is linked to the right page. - SchroCat (talk) 19:08, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It also says "How ambiguous does this make the narrator's sex? Just enough for a song, one might reply, but not too much. By convention, a narrator of unspecified sex is assigned the same sex as the author." I don't see how this supports the step in the logical chain "Schubert removes last stanza → Schubert removes the need for a male voice": there is nothing to prevent that either way, is there? (With that stanza, the narrator is clearly male: without it, the narrator is by default assigned as male. And the source states outright that in the latter case there is nothing to prevent the song from being taken by a female singer, so why should there be in the first case?) Double sharp (talk) 03:04, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever the finer points are in reading Kramer's text, it's clear that he sees the omission of the last stanza as relevant to the narrator's sex, if only to make it less specifically male. This seems a worthwhile observation to have in the article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Double sharp, I disagree. That is precisely what Kramer is saying. - SchroCat (talk) 08:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Kramer is saying that Schubert's removal of the final stanza makes the narrator's sex more ambiguous (and that is indeed mentioned in the article), but I don't think he's saying clearly that Schubert's doing so opened the door for female singers to sing the song. In particular, he doesn't make it clear that a male voice would have been required if Schubert hadn't removed the last stanza, and somewhat implies the opposite by his statement "Still there is nothing to prevent the part of this male narrator from being taken by a woman's voice, something, of course, that often happens in general and in common with this song in particular." Double sharp (talk) 10:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  how do you suggest to rephrase ""? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we could merge sentences in that paragraph, creating "" or something similar? Double sharp (talk) 13:06, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:51, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, . Double sharp (talk) 10:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "Schubert removes ... the need for a male voice and thus allows "Die Forelle" to be sung by female singers"

message: No mention of this? How come? Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 11:50, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows''