Talk:Territorial changes of the Baltic states

message: Petseri region or Petchery never had a "clear majority of Baltic people later russified". Ethnic composition  of the region was always mixed Estonian/Russian. Petseri/Pechery region also was a part of various East Slavic/Russian states before 20th century interwar period (part of Kievan Rus, Pskov/Novgorod, Moscovy, Russian Empire)
In 15th centry a Russian Christian Orthodox monastery was built in Pechery  and became one of holiest sites for Russian Christians. Prior to 1721 incorporation of the Baltic into Russian Empire, Petchery was a Russian town fortified since early 16th century to defend the Russian border from German and later Swedish and Polish attacks.
The rest of the  article is highly questionable as well.-(Fisenko)
It does not say that all of these territories had a clear majority of Baltic peoples nor that Petseri did; it says that some did however, which is true. Also, what I said in Talk:Abrene region applies.DeirYassin 08:42, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Petseri region 

message: There is a link in this article to another titled Abrene.  The creative spelling conventions and innovations in the English language in the Abrene article smack a bit of this article.  Can anyone think of a reason to keep the Abrene article?  How many articles has this author written?  JH. May 17, 2005
:Well, of course there is a reason - it is an existing town, smaller towns have their own articles. Taht article is stub at a given time it does not mean that the article should be deleted, only that it should be expanded. It would be nice if you in future would expand too short articles and correct mistakes if there are any, instead of asking them to be deleted. DeirYassin 05:58, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: While working on Population transfer in the Soviet Union I saw some hints that ethnic cleansing of Pytalovo region was related to crushing the Latvian guerilla. Do you have any info in this respect, and about Latvian resistance as a whole? Any Abrene "Forest Brothers"? Mikkalai 19:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like propaganda. There was resistance everywhere in Lithuania for example, and there were repressions against people too; I am sure in Latvia there were resistance elsewhere too, probably even more elsewhere in more Latvian dominated areas. However it was Soviet policy to russianze the territories mentioned in this article, especially ones attached to Russia, and it was not on the first line of goals to russianise whole Baltic States, even though that was planned at first as some documents shows.DeirYassin 20:04, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Busy Authors 

message: Hy. We all should remember the main purpose of the Wikipedia, that is to inform our readers, what is exactly going on, was going on and is supposed to be going on. 
Looking from this point, the article doesn't give necessary distinction: 
#Real policy of the Baltic states is one thing. 
#What do think people in Baltic states, Poland and Belarus is another thing (I don't say it isn't worth to mention in the wikipedia, but everyone should remember, that people in even one certain country very often have multiple opinions and formal majority of one common opinion doesn't remain stable for centuries.) 
#And the description of historical events is the third different thing, even when these events imply some problems in the present. 
We sink in formalities here. For example,  Halibutt says, that The south part of Suvalkai region never depended to Lithuania after the Lublin union treaty. But one can say this about any city, town,  place or region of Lithuania before 1918. This is an example of formal approach, which would be replied with other such formal approach, like that Lithuanians considered the territory of the Grand duchy of Lithuania (this way, including Suvalkai too) the basic, until the new treaties with respectable states were closed. Lithuanian politicians always insisted, that it isn't a problem of territorial claim to all the territory of the former GDL by the new Lithuania, but it's a problem of unsettled boarders. (That's why this page of history is rather finished than actual now, but let's look further into the problematic). Lithuania actually wanted righteous borders initially, but this problem was unsolvable without consent of Lithuanian Poles. When Lithuanians didn't attain this consent, the problem of righteous borders for Lithuania became unrealizable. When Lithuanian politicians understood it, they simply used this fact of unrighteous borders in complicated political struggle and no more. That's why many Lithuanian ideas on borders are naturally treated by other sides as claims. 
The main psychological problem is, that Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Belarusians and Poles (and, perhaps, Finns) feel, that their borders weren't settled in the most suitable way of internecine negotiations, but that they were established by outer powers. The idea of pre-War League of Nations was more right in this sense than idea of Helsinki (so!) treaty, but the pre-War system didn't prevent later events, that were more dangerous than eventual problems of unideal borders. That's why, after 1990ties, all these countries were pushed, at this time by the international community, to accept all these unnatural borders of the Molotov -Ribbentrop.  Lithuanians and Poles perhaps could take their part of responsibility in it. For example, Lithuania got Klaipėda region and arranged the borders with Latvia according to procedures of the League of Nations. These borders persist to exist. We (i. e. Lithuanians and Poles) couldn't reach any agreement, and we have consequences now. But Latvia, Estonia, Belarus, and Poland in other cases, can't console themselves even by it. They simply were forced to accept the will of greater and more powerful states. (By the way, "occupied by Belarus" isn't NPOV in any case. Belarusians never occupied any country, and it should be “ruled by Belarusians” or “given to Belarus”). 
But we'll never reach the borders, that were righteous in the 1918, and such ideas raised by Lithuanians and Belarusians are more from fictional literature than real. I think it's better to stop this article, and it would be action of good will, than to insist on actuality of these problems. Instead of it we can announce a request of an article about territorial problems of Latvia and Estonia (and, perhaps,  Finland) with Russia. Linas Lituanus 09:26, 2005 May 23 (UTC)
:I told my opinion about it previously here and also during the VfD discution. I also said this suggestion that there might be an articles about teritorial changes or new territorial delimitations of certain regions of former USSR (Baltic States, Caucasus, Central Asia and Eastern Europe in particular, the arguementing why these regions and about similarities and differences is available there). My opinion is still that this is an existing issue with these changes of borders under Russian occupation. As for the way article is written, the way it mentions these things, it can be changed. I think official stance of states and historical reasons for these territories being detached are already more or less mentioned; opinion of people with time could be broke down into opinions of various political groups and parties in the countries; e.g. in Latvia opinions on this subject differs by parties; in Lithuania it is generally not seen as a subject by politicians. Also, as a sidenote, under common international law, genocide and ethnic cleanising should not change borders of states (that is the reason objecting for example creation of two states in Cyprus or in Bosnia and Herzegovina, or creation of independent Transnistria and such), so what was righteous does not loose it's righteousness. DeirYassin 12:23, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, actually those are not territorial claims, I tried to remove the map but it was put back lol, maybe with current caption it is ok. Those are ethnographic regions of Lithuanian nation; the map is drawn by myself to put on Regions of Lithuania article, according to several other maps which couldn't have been put themselves due to copyright. The reason I don't like this map here too much is that it might give idea that all those territories are territories in question, while in fact article is not about that but rather about very clear and finite territories which were part of Baltic States butwere detached by Soviets. This area was a bit larger to Suwalki than ethnographic Lithuania, a bit smaller to the Byelorussian side, and it is not related to parts of Aukštaitija in Latvia or to Lithuania Minor now in Russia or Poland. I think I might draw a better map of Baltic States which would show the territories in question here when I'll have time. Latvians applies the claim in realpolitics BTW, and well, this is not about who thinks what, but rather about the actually existing detached territories. The opinions might be an additional information. The more information the better. Wikipedia should not be censored; I understand that there is common policy of silence in Europe regardting this question, e.g. by German or Finnish politicians, similarly by Lithuanian politicians; however Wikipedia is not a portal for political correctness or such, all views and all historical facts should be represented. DeirYassin 18:59, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The vaste thing 

message: When talking about Historic Regions of Lituania is it possible to indicate what year it suppose to correspond. Also we may need a decryption list connecting the historic names on the map with their traditional spellings like (Karaliaučius = Königsberg, Klaipeda = Memel, Vilnius=Vilno, Lithuania Minor= East Prussia, etc.). Lets not create anachronisms abakharev 22:53, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: The previous renaming of this article was wrong:
*Firstly (and most importantly) there are no territorial claims by Baltic States on these territories, thus the new name is wrong. You could read the article about the situation in particular states, and you can see that as for Lithuania, there are not even any considerations that these territories could be part of the country, while in Latvia and Estonia as well the situation is not that of direct claims (e.g. Argentine claim on Falkland Islands is a territorial claim, so is Indian claim on the Pakistani Kashmir; that is, one country considers part of anotrher country to be part of it. No such case exists in Latvia or Estonia).
*Secondly, unlike it was implied, "Lost territories of Baltic States" does not mean that these territories belongs to Baltic states any more than the term "Territorial claims" does so. "Lost" just means that they at some time of history used to be territories of Baltic States, but aren't any longer. Similarly e.g. Kaliningrad could be called a lost territory of Germany, Crimea could be called a lost territory of Russia (or Lost territory of Turkey as well). EDIT - now, after watching page history, I see that the name "Lost territories of the Baltic States" exactly was adopted as a neutral one; it seems previously it was called "Occupied territories of Baltic States" - now, that title for sure was not neutral.
*Thirdly, article "the" should be used before the term "Baltic States".
Hence I am renaming the article back. Please discuss here before moving if someone has any objections, as it takes much time to move an article with so many redirects so it is better to reach an agreement at first. Burann 15:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything is all right but you cannot move but cut and paste. If you want to move the article somewhere but can't for technical reasons, you list it at WP:RM and once the move gets support, the article is moved with the history preserved. --Irpen 01:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am still quite new so I don't know how to do that - could you please do that? Thanks in advance. Burann 01:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it very well can be reverted with cut and paste. Why not ? --Lysy (talk) 08:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree with Mikka. Should we start Lost territories of Russia and list Ukraine, Poland, Finland, Estonia etc there - just for the sake of symmetry? The article on such territories as Kaliningrad Oblast sat for months at Occupied territories of Baltic States, and nobody seemed to be concerned that it's pure nonsense. Now that it was moved to a NPOV title, our Baltic friends are instantly here to voice their concerns. I wish they had been more active earlier and brought the article to NPOV without my help. --Ghirlandajo 12:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Lost territories of Russia would indeed be an encyclopedic article - it could list former territories of Russia and as well mention the numbers of ethnic Russians in each of those territories and the situation of ethnic Russians there (e.g. is Russian language one of official languages, are there Russian schools, do Russians get citizenship, etc.). And, as you've seen, the article was renamed from "Occupied territories of Baltic States" to "Lost territories of Baltic States", the latter name was not POV - as for the first name, unfortunatelly, it is impossible to notice every POV article that is being created, and at that time I was not even member of Wikipedia. But there are no territorial claims on this area; there might be some Latvian or Estonian radicals who'd want these territories, but Wikipedia should be neutral, not a voice of these radicals; there are no official claims on these areas and thus the article should be renamed somehow. I prefer the former name "Lost territories(...)", as, except for some radicals, the current boundaries are not really disputed. As with my above example, article "Lost territories of Russia" would be encyclopedic, but article "Territorial claims of Russia" which would list Crimea, Pridnestrovye, South Ossetia, Abkhasia on the sole basis that a few radicals wants these territories would be completely wrong as the Russian Federation has no claims over such areas; furthermore, it might ignite radicals of other nations to write similar articles about supposed "claims" (e.g. "Teritorial claims of Finland" about Karelia or even "Territorial claims of Belarus" about Smolensk), which does not really exist but some nationalists would want them to exist. So, I think the current name serves solely the radicals of Latvia and Estonia, who would want that this "problem" which is not really that important would seem rather important, and term "territorial claims" makes it seem that these claims are official and thus more important than those specualations actually are. Burann 13:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Maybe "Historic territorial claims of Baltic States" or "Historic territories of Baltic States" ? "Changes ..." has the same flaw as "Lost ..." in that it would need to  refer to previously owned land only. "Claims ..." is completely out of question as there are no such claims today. --Lysy (talk) 08:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, yet again it would not be true. There were no historical claims by Latvia and Estonia over these regions; just that in the interwar they used to be part of Latvia and Estonia and now they aren't any longer. I don't think creating a single "larger" article is a good idea - this article covers a very specific territorial changes, which are not claims as such (the only real claims over Russian Federation are those by the Japanese on southern Kuril islands), but yet plays some role in politics of today and the Latvian-Russian, Estonian-Russian relations (e.g. prevented signing border treaties). I cannot think of any better name than "Lost territories", which on itself was reached after discussion. Another name might be "Former territories", but in that case someone might start adding all the former territories of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which is not the point of this article. I agree though that Lost territories might not be an ideal, but it is way better than current name, which, as me and Lysy said, is completely wrong as it is factually inaccurate (I would support most other proposed names over this one). Irpen, could you propose something yourself? Lysy, if you can do it, can you propose it on proposed moves? Burann 10:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I would rather do what you just did, that is revert it, as Ghirlandajo's move was an arbitrary rename. I'm still waiting for Irpen though to explain why he thinks it is not appropriate to revert it. --Lysy (talk) 22:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Lysy, you voiced this q earlier at Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/AndriyK/Proposed decision and I responded there. --Irpen 18:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I fail to see what was wrong with Lost territories of the Baltic States, then. If Territorial changes of Baltic States is all right with you, than Lost territories of the Baltic States should be even better, as the subject of the article are the territories, not the changes. So again, what are the objections against the former title ? --Lysy (talk) 21:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose. The article couldn't sit at Lost territories of Baltic States, as it featured such pieces of irrendentism as the following: "For historical and ethnical reasons, East Prussia (or at least its eastern part, without the city of Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg/Karaliaučius) can be considered lost part of Lithuania too." If the article is moved back, I reserve the right to insert sections on other "last parts" of Lithuania: Belarus, Ukraine, West Russia, etc. I have enough stuff on Lithuanian oppression of local Slavic population to add there. --Ghirlandajo 09:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the content of the article is far from perfect, and can be improved as signified by the  tag. However I cannot see the passage about East Prussia that you mention there. I believe it was removed before you renamed the article. --Lysy (talk) 09:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so - it is actually Lithuanian POV that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was dominated by Lithuanians; in fact the major language there was Slavic and all nationalities there were equal; only after the Lithuanian revival in 19th century Lithuanians started to regard whole area of the Grand Duchy as if it would have been their own, while in fact they did not have greater power there than Slavic peoples. So, how could the Lithuanians have oppressed Slavs when in fact they weren't even ruling nation (it seems for me that any mentioning of such opression would only support Lithuanian POV that they were the dominant nation of the Grand Duchy)? What evidence/sources you have for this? It would be interesting to read. Burann 09:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I agree with Lysy. As well, an objection I have against "territorial changes" is that such an article would need to mention very many historical changes (e.g. Latvian-Lithuanian border dispute of 20s after which Latvians ceded Palanga to Lithuanians and Lithuanians ceded Akniste and some villages to Latvia; aquisition of Memelland to Lithuania in 1923 and aquisition of it by Germany in 1939, all the changes due to Polish-Lithuanian wars and so on (and there were more changes over the time)), while this particular article is about very specific border changes - ones done to these Soviet Socialist Republics by the Soviet Union immidietly after World War 2. Burann 08:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The move 

message: It seems this had been discussed above; these regions are mentioned because they were always regarded as an integral part of Lithuania by the Lithuanian government, while the government of Lithuanian SSR dropped such recognition. In fact, it seems they are the reason for the disputed tag. As that tag is in place anyways, I am readding that information. To make it NPOV, it should be explained in the article that in the interwar only parts of the said regions were actually controlled by Lithuania at different times, but the removal of whole paragraphs is unnecessary. Kaiser 747 11:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Kaiser, you forget that it were you who arbitrarily moved the page to Territories detached from the Baltic States by the Soviet Union. Actually, Vilnius and Memel - the largest and the third largest cities of modern Lithuania - were added to the country by the Soviet Union. This has to be explained in the text. For the time being, I propose to move the page to Russian territories occupied by the Baltic States in 1919. --Ghirlandajo 11:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A completely POV proposal. These borders were agreed upon by Russia in 1920 border treaties. I seriously do not understand you; if you want to write something against the Baltic States, write about the situation of Russians in Latvia, the new educational reform which makes many subjects in Russian schools to be taught in Latvian and so on. There are many topics where it is really possible to write about bad things the Baltic States does. Why to invent such topics somewhere where they don't exist? Burann 11:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to reason like a kid. I do not wish to write "bad things" about Baltic States. The only articles I contributed on them are Yelgava, Daugavgriva, Gedyminas, Algirdas, and Svitrigaila. I don't know where you found "bad things" here. My only wish is that the Baltic (and Polish) contributors wouldn't write "bad things" about Russia. Therefore, I am going to strip the article of these "bad things" as you call them. --Ghirlandajo 12:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, my native language is not English, it is not even my second language, so please forgive some overly simple words that I might use sometimes to express myself. As for the negative things, I was having in mind that you are changing the Baltic POV into a Russian one, while in order to be a neutral article both points of view needs to be represented. Thus I think there is no reason to delete almost any text from this article but it needs to be put in proper context. That is, instead of "is occupied land" it should be written "According to the opinion of  some Estonians [best to name what political powers exactly] it is an occupied area because (...), while official Russia denounces such claims by mentioning that (...)" - then the article will stay unedited and unreverted for long as opinions of everyone will be mentioned, while the reader will be able to decide himself/herself what is right. This article should have less speculations and more worthvile information about such things as realdifferences between borders in 1920 treaties and now, how those territories influenced the fact that Russian-Latvian and Russian-Estonian border treaties were not ratified, what were comments about it from the Russian, Latvian and Estonian officials, what radical organisations in Latvia and Estonia are major proponents of keeping this issue active and so on. Burann 13:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your words make sense to me and I second them. Let's see what other editors say. --Ghirlandajo 13:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mentioning of Suwalki and Wilna regions

message: Kaiser, stop your arbitrary moves by cut and paste! They ruin the page's history. I'll have to apply to admins for the page to be restored to its original location, until the issue is resolved by move vote. --Ghirlandajo 11:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The original location was Lost territories of Baltic States by the way. I think however this article should be protected and we should at first decide what edits to do in the discution page. As now everyone edits it, changes one POV by another, changes names frequently as they sees fit and so on. So it should be protected and the decition about how it will look in future should be done here. Burann 11:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wanton moves by Kaiser 747

message: People, please stop changing one POV by another POV - let's try to make a neutral article together.
*Baltic States were liberated from the nazis by the Soviet Union. Memelland was occupied by nazis similarly as other parts of Lithuania were, just that at different times (but we say that e.g. whole Czechoslovakia was occupied, including Sudettenland which was occupied earlier). Memelland was part of Lithuania prior to nazi occupation; it was not added by the Soviet Union.
*The situation with Western Vilnius region was similar. Eastern Vilnius and Suwalki region, unlike other parts of Lithuania, were not liberated by the Soviet Union and instead given to other Soviet Republics. Note please that I do not' support the view that these areas should belong to Lithuania - I am merely speaking about juridical things, comparing the boundaries of Russia-Baltic States border treaties signed in 1920  and the current eastern boundaries of the Baltic States. 
*The reason of this article is the particular areas of Pytalovo, Pechory and Ivangorod, which creates some diplomatic tension up until today (e.g. it does not allow the ratification of border treaties), not trying to decide what Soviet Union taken from Baltic States or what it gave (the article is called "detached" rather than "attached"). Same as any Wikipedia article, this one should be neutral; it should not claim to whom the territories should belong or who has more rights to them, but rather just list the claims of opposing sides. Changing one POV by another POV is definitely not a solution.
*What was natioality of count that ruled the area in 9th century does not matters. E.g. there were many rich Germans all over the Eastern Europe at the time, including Baltic States, Romania, etc.; that couldn't work as a claim for Germany for those areas. Burann 13:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is pathetic. Tell me who you discussed with your frantic moves of the page merely an hour ago? --Ghirlandajo 11:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not move the page an hour ago; and as for the attempted move a couple of days ago, I am sorry that it was not discussed about. It was reverted soon anyways by Irpen. Now however when there are a few different versions of the article and a discution, undiscussed edits should not be doen. Please reply my points and let's settle everything peacefully. Burann 11:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then you should sign you comments, so that we could distinguish you from another user who posts his comments at the same time with you. Rurik was not a count but konung, but I'm afraid it doesn't make much difference to you. I advise you to study the history of Izborsk, Pechory, Ivangorod - all core Russian territories and strongholds of Russian statehood for so many centuries. They had *never* been Estonian or Latvian until the German army forced Russia into signing the 1919 treaty. The article makes it appear as if these were ethnically Estonian territories seized and renamed by bloody Russians. This is POV, and it should be changed. --Ghirlandajo 12:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for not signing my previous comment, I did so now. I actually agree with you that the article as it is currently is POV (especially such wordings as "Estonian territory occupied by Russia"). I just don't agree with the way it is changed and preffer discussing it prior to changing it; there are very many sides involved here (Belarusians, Russians, Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians), each with their own opinions and hence in order to create a text of the article that would stay for long and undisputed, the only possible way to do so is to discuss everything here at first. Let's not rush to the editing of the article itself - it's tagged as disputed anyways; at first let's hear opinions of other people, such as Mikkalai, Irpen, Lysy. I believe the most important thing in the resolution of this dispute will be to include as much of everything as possible, but state that those are just opinions of different sides (that is, instead of changing one POV by another, write the opinion of Russia, opinion of Baltic States, opinion of Poland about these things, supported by the arguements they use. There were Putin's speeches about the issue I believe after the unratified border treaties, there were as well speeches of Latvian and Estonian officials, therefore there is material to base the information about the official opinions on). The reason of this article is not to decide who is right and who is wrong, but just to give information, same as that of every article of Wikipedia; therefore, we shouldn't delete the opinions we disagree with, but instead just tag them as opinions instead of "accepted truth" as they were tagged previously. And, actually *no* territories were part of Estonian or Latvian states prior to 20th century simply because there were no Latvian or Estonian states back then. Burann 13:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: POV was added to the article

message: I absolutely and categorically disagree with splitting the subject. In order to have the neutal picture, the article must list all: both attached and detached, and since the beginning of the independent history of the states. Territorial changes of Baltic States is the most neutral and appropriate title. I am reverting the page move and protecting from moves until the consensus reached. mikka (t) 16:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly support mikka on the prefered page name.Dirgela 17:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm surprised (or shouldn't I be ?) that you've reverted Kaiser's move but not Ghirlandajo's, which in fact is the reason for the controversy, but that's your choice. --Lysy (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't undrerstand myself how various Latvian-Lithuanian border disputes of early 20s and their resolutions, and other such events, which are forgotten by now and does not influence the politics anyhow, are related to this issue; all territorial changes of Baltic States are covered in articles about histories of respective Baltic States, while this article is about those specific territories which plagues Russian-Latvian and Russian-Estonian relations even now. I don't understand by the way why you have moved the article to this place, when it is clear that there are no real territorial claims and thus the name is misleading. Burann 16:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is your opinion about the scope. Current disputes sre rooted in history. They did not appear right from thin air. Historical perespective in such heated issues is a must. mikka (t) 16:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move, 2 

message: Please list all known territorial changes here, for consistent reference, because of disorganized editing of the aricle. And please stop accusing each other of POV pushing. Please understand the difference between POV of editors and POV described in the article, i.e., please re-read NPOV wikipedia policy. For example, some nationalist Belarussian activists for some time argued for returning Vilnius region to Belarus. I see no reason why this should not be included in the article. mikka (t) 17:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to clog the poll with discution so I will answer to your (Mikkalai) point about the article name here. I personally don't like the name "Territorial changes after World War 2" as it is too broad when article would be only about these specific changes. Although it might seem that no other changes happened since World War 2, it is not the case actually: for example, the Russian-Lithuanian border treaty ratified in 2004 actually included a minor exchange of territories (namely, Russia ceded the eastern part of Vistytis town, which is inhabitted by Lithuanians, to Lithuania, as well as waters of nearby lake, while Lithuania ceded equal sized uninhabitted tract of land and territorial waters at Curonian Lagoon to Russia in exchange); I wouldn't be surpirsed if there were more such minor changes over the time of USSR, and as well if we'd the name article "Territorial changes after WW2" then that article would have to include any possible changes in future, should they happen. Thus I think the "detached territories" is the best name, I don't see POV in it myself as it is exactly the detahed territories what prevented the Russian-Latvian and Russian-Estonian border treaties to be ratified. And the attached territories in case of Lithuania are a complicated issue (as Vilnius region as a whole was recognised to be a part of Lithuania by Soviet Russia throughout the interwar period, thus de jure territories were detached (that is, Soviets dropped the recognition of those areas as part of Lithuania), however de facto no territories were detached from Lithuania as Lithuania did not actually control them - thus de facto some territories were attached). In general, I believe the issues in Lithuania are different from those in Latvia and Estonia - countries on which the article should concentrate - as Lithuania already signed and ratified border agreements with Russia, Belarus, Poland and does not look back to these territories. So, it would probably be better to be concentrating more on Latvia and Estonia (due to reasons already explained about border treaties and importance of these territories at straining Russian relations with those countries), while Lithuania and its issues should be mentioned as well, but primarilly as a comparement. By the way, I have nothing against a separate article Territorial changes of the Baltic States you proposed as well; I would suggest however that that article if you will create it would stick more to the facts (dates, reasons, etc.) rather than speculations for what country each of the territories should belong. As for articles on separate border changes, I think it can be done even with the broader article in place, if someone will be able to write enough about those specific changes (Latvian-Lithuanian border negotiations of 1920s, Lithuanian-Polish armistice line and so on) to merit their own articles; as far as I noticed that is the way how it is usually done in wikipedia. Burann 20:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly: " how it is usually done in wikipedia". If you want to narrow down the topic, cut out a separate article, but not cripple the original one. mikka (t) 20:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I had not crippled the original article; this article it seems was originally created only about these particular territories, there was never written here anything about any other territories. You have proposed an expansion of the article however to write one about all the territorial changes of Baltic Sates - that article would have a larger scope. As for my previous edits, I just was trying to make a temporary neutral version (that is, a version where only those facts agreed upon by all sides are written), which would have stayed until the final decition in discution page. However, you insisted on keeping the current version - I have certain objections with it which I have named in various of my entries here in the past, but as long as it is a temporary version and is planned to be improved in future, it can stay for now. I'll wait for opinions of more people and the decition. Burann 23:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The word "liberation" which I have used in past is just an opinion - I used it only in the talk page rather than the article itself; of course everything was more complicated and I ensure you that I wouldn't used neither "occupation" nor "liberation" in articles about these territories, for the sake of NPOV. Thank you for contributing to this discution. I am sorry by the way if that remark was not actually directed at me but was a general thing instead, I answered just in case. Sorry as well for talking about a different topic than this discution should be about; now we could get back to the main topic. Burann 11:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As per what has been said, an article on both detached and attached areas should not mention only one of those processes in the title. I voted for one article in the poll below as I believe that one article could say it all. Similarily, I would support the article on Revision of borders of Poland (1945) to be moved to Territorial changes of Poland after World War II, eventhough it should include info on Polish-Czech land exchange of 2004. After all the world we live in is a world after WWII and I see nothing wrong with that. Halibutt 11:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Territorial changes of Baltic states

message: If someone really insist that there should be an article that describes only territories detached by Soviet Union, I see no reason not to start a separate article Territorial changes of the Baltic states, which will be done if this silly revert war will not stop. mikka (t) 17:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Scope of the article

message: (1)"Territorial changes"
#mikka (t) 17:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Single article

message: (1)"Territorial changes",
(2)"Territories detached after WWII"
#Burann 17:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Two articles

message: *"why limit to the baltic states?" (by kazak) and "One article for each change"
*:There were quite a few territorial moves in the Soviet Union. While it would be good to have a timeline of all transfers, it is a reasonable idea to group them by regions. When a particular transfer stirs much sentiment, we already have separate articles, like Abrene region or Karabakh. "Baltic area" is a separate region.  Still another is Caucasus, and there is Central Asia. Individual countries may have the corresponding subsection in their "Geography"  articles: e.g., "Ukraine" is a "resized" region (ukraine vs. moldova, ukraine vs. mainland Russia, transfer of Crimea). Belarus has a notable history of initial definition and moves. (and so on) 
*::If Estonian and Latvian case is rather similar - the territories were gained under Tartu treaty and lost after WW2, Lithuanian story is rather different and much more complicated - it involves Poland, Belorus and general situation in interwar period. Therefore I find "Lost territories of the Baltic states" rather artificial grouping. Current articles proves it quite well, because it is quite difficult to write on the subject without splitting it into parts for Latvia-Estonia and Lithuania. Especially the last chapter is a mess because some statments are valid for Estonia-Latvia and not valid for Lithuania and vice versa.Dirgela 16:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: I changed the layout of the article since Latvian and Estonian loss of territories are a bit different story then Lithuanian. Latvia and Estonia lost some territories after WWII and Lithuania has actually never fully controlled all the claimed territories in Vilnius and Suvalkai regions. However the last part of the article is too difficult for me to edit - it contains large generalizations like "redistribution of lands after WWII was based mainly on ethnicity of local populations", "shown in many maps" which are neither accurate, nor useful. There are many inaccuracies like "Suvalkai region - part of Vilnius region in interwar" (Suvalkai have never been part of Vilnius region), "Baltic peoples" and "Baltic languages" refer to articles about Lithuanian and Latvian languages and peoples, Estonians are not mentioned here for some reason. I would suggest to delete this part of the article. Dirgela 19:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree: delete. This part is broken beyond repair. --Lysy (talk) 19:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

text: About Lithuania: Only the marginal political groups use the "issue of borders" in their political rethorics. How marginal ?  Worth mentioning in an encyclopedic article or not ? --Lysy (talk) 19:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest changes 

message: I find this debate fascinating. I've no idea who's right and wrong but the grammar of the article was very poor. Allow me to tidy it up before you delete the lot.... (Mdhinton 22:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I wonder if it can be reanimated, anyway ... --Lysy (talk) 22:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the grammar? 

message: I was asked on my talk page to express my opinion. So here it is: I suggest we expand the whole topic to include ALL Territorial changes of the Baltic States in the 20th century. That means tracking down anything that happened to the borders right from the WWI to the ratification of boarder treaties in 2004/5. Why? Because otherwise noone will be able to NPOV it. A lot of stuff that happens after the WWII is directly dependent on stuff happening in the interwar. You cannot explain one without explaining details. If you create one comprehensive article explaining and describing all views and positions, I think it could be settled. Because noone is gonna be happy with some "trimmed" version. 
Who's for it? Renata3 21:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: My proposal: one huge comprehensive history

message: Hello, I have improved the article as it seems everybody agreed here previously that it should stick less to discussing who should the territories belong to, but instead it should focus more on actual numbers, facts, quotes, events, et cetera. As well I would like to ask, what do you think, should this article stay only about these territories or territorial changes of Baltic States in general, as it's new name implies? Burann 18:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: After the name change

message: I personally don't see much point in the point that Axisglobe article tries to make. Of course the Soviet intelligence recognised the area as a Latvian territory, because it was not yet detached (the detaching happened in 1944, while the Soviet partisans were active during the Nazi occupation, which was earlier. During the 1940-1941 the borders of the Latvian SSR were the same as those of the interwar Latvia, and official Soviet-recognised boundaries of the nazi-occupied SSR remained the same). Therefore, these documents proves nothing, not that "Abrene is a Latvian territory" as a name of the article suggests. The first part of the article, the one that does not deal with those documents, has some valuable information about the region itself. However, with the second part of the article trying to pass the message that is doubtful, I have added that explaination about Latvian point of view being represented here. If user Vecrumba has some other suggestions for the naming of that link, say them here, but please take into account the points that I have made. Burann 13:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there is a definite and valid point to be made with the Axisglobe article. Russian nationalists have been claiming the Abrene region was heavily Russian, always Russian, historically Russian; that the Russian place names are the historically correct names, etc., etc. They are only reflecting the position Russia takes today regarding the Abrene region. That the USSR had already determined to incorporate the Baltics en masse is proved by the Latvian SSR et al. maps already printed before the pacts of mutual assistance were signed. The point of the Axisglobe article is that while Russia today refers to the Abrene region etc. by what it alleges is historically accurate terminology and stakes ancient geo-ethnic claim to this territory--that is a Russian propaganda that even the Soviet Union did not subscribe to, because if it had, its documents regarding the Abrene region would have (also) used the "correct Russian" place names at that time--especially as these were internal Soviet documents and incorporation was a done deal from the Soviet perspective. The article can only be tagged as Latvian opinion if there were any Latvians involved in its production or dissemination, which there are not. If anything, it is more an alternate Russian opinion (you will note the site is available in both English and Russian). What is a Latvian opinion is my personal belief that instead of admitting to the criminality of its Soviet past, Russia has embraced that past and is even trying to out-propaganda Soviet propaganda. The way Russian politicians and Pravda (as their mouthpiece) deride Baltic politicians today hasn't changed since 1939, see "A Buffoon Holding the Post of Prime Minister" (front page article) calling the Finnish minister a "clown" and worse for not accepting the Soviets' pact of mutual assistance. --Pēters 06:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: That Axisglobe  article

message: After WWI there was a certaint period of time until borders of Baltic states were set, in that time borders were different i.e. Palanga was in Latvia. This article deals with period after WWII, but since it has been (re)named so that name doesn't reference certaint time maybe it could mention period before WWII ? -- Xil/talk 00:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have asked this some time ago in fact. I didn't get much response. So, I guess most of contributors wants to keep the de facto situation. Probably it is the best unless somebody would actually be keen to write about all the changes, as otherwise article would be incomplete. If you want to write about the Latvian-Lithuanian border treaty and territorial exchange when Palanga and some villages went to Lithuania, Akniste and other places - to Latvia, you can start a separate article Latvian-Lithuanian border treaty however. Burann 14:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be senceless to start article about that, especialy with name you suggested - firstly there were other issues as well, secondly it would remind of current border problem between Latvia an Lithuania and after all it would make information fragmented. Besides currently article reflect only Baltic-Russia border dispute not all teritorial changes and claims, so name still is disputable if you don't want to mention other issues. I somehow didn't notice that you already asked that, sorry, but from other hand it doesn't mean that no one wants that change since no one responded to you - it seems that either people don't have opinion about issue or they simply wait when someone else will make the change -- Xil/talk 22:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, those are the reasons why I was not keen on this name for this article, but all the other proposed names and solutions were either seen as POV by one side or another or were factually incorrect. Therefore, this name was chosen (you could look through the discussion above). The article however is and always was it seems solely about this particular issue. Currently, it explains the issue relatively well. If someone would add explaination of another event when boundaries changed, the article would suddenly become a stub (as only a small frraction of all chanegs would be listed, while it would be assumed that the article is meant to list all changes). As well, I think "Territorial changes of Baltic States" name and scope would be not good to list all changes. This is because at some times Baltic States had different history; e.g. if someone wants to read about territorial changes of Latvia, and in the middle of them there would also be lots of information about the changes that are not anyhow related to Latvia (e.g. Polish-Lithuanian wars), the article would be hard to read and it would be hard to find correct information. Besides, the definition of "Baltic State" changed over the time, with Finland as well being considered one of Baltic States in the interwar. Thus, generally, I would suggest creating three separate articles: Territorial changes of Latvia, Territorial changes of Estonia and Territorial changes of Lithuania, where whole history of the territorial chanegs would be listed. The only question then would be werether to write the articles only about the territorial chanegs that happened since World War 1, or as well include the changes of pre-modern entities that existed in the areas of those nations (e.g. governorates of the Russian empire, Livonia, Duchy of Courland, Grand Duchy of Lithuania and so on). Burann 10:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I am aware of the naming problems. Finland was named as a Baltic State only in interwar period, while the name itself was used long before that. Anyway interwar border issues were (copied from map): Poland vs. Lithuania and Latvia, Palanga given to Lithuania by Latvia, Ruhnu island given to Estonia by Latvia, Klaipeda Region joined Lithuania only few years after war, three small rural districts given to Latvia by Lithuania, Estonian claims for Latvian territories as reward for partipicaiting in Libertation war, borders with Russia and Lithuanian radicals claimed that 1/4 of Latvia should belong to Lithuania (namely Latgale and area around Liepāja) -- Xil/talk 12:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Latvian-Lithuanian border treaty of the interbellum article would be useful for explaining the entire history of the treaty, including the initial Latvian and Lithuanian claims (Latvian claims on Mazeikiai, Memel, the Curonian Spit and othe rplaces, Lithuanian claims on Latgale, Liepaja and other places) and the downscaling of them later and the eventual deal on territory swap (backed by superarbiter Simpson). Similar article might be written about the Latvian-Estonian border treaty. Ruhnu, as far as I know, never actually belonged to Latvia - it was just a treaty which designated that it would belong to Estonia and Latvia would drop the claims. When such articles are prepared it will be easier to write a single non-stup article about Territorial changes of Latvia (and similar articles on Estonia and Lithuania) with links to those particular articles about the particular changes. Burann 13:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant "gave up" when I said "gave" acctualy, anyway I won't write about this - it was only suggestion and I think it would be nice if someone else would comment this -- Xil/talk 16:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Maybe list all territorial changes ?

message: Thanks for the find. I have re-added information to the article, but have dropped the "donkeys ears" idiom, as it isn't a term for which the meaning is widely known outside of Russia. Also, the article needs updating, as the treaty with Latvia has been signed already (in 2007). --Russavia Let's dialogue 20:27, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Leaving the ears out understates Putin's resolve and the message his, shall we say, earthy metaphor was intended to deliver. Readers may well find the donkey's ears more confusing when they run the cited text through a machine translation whereas here the ears can be quoted and appropriately explained for the uninitiated. No more or less earthy than, say, explaining "bubkes" abbreviated from kozebubkes, originally, "goat droppings." PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 21:24, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed an appropriate footnote can be added to the article to explain the meaning of this notable quote. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 21:47, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Forbes article is a most inappropriate link, as it is not on the issue of the dispute of the border treaty between Russia and Latvia, but it is on something totally unrelated. The only link to this article is that it mentions Putin's use of the "donkey ears" idiom. I have no objection to the "donkeys ears" idiom being inserted, so long as there is a reliable source for the explanation of exactly what it means. I believe the book that Tammsalu provided explains this, so it can be put in the footnotes as a simple explanation. We just need to remember that we are on this article discussing territorial changes of the Baltic states, not the donkeys ears idiom. --Russavia Let's dialogue 22:07, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  As the territorial changes article includes commentary on the changes, idioms do apply. As far as I am aware Forbes is considered a WP:RS. "In Russian, 'donkey ears' are what you get when you get squat. President Vladimir Putin famously illustrated the proper use of the idiom in the course of a 2005 spat with Latvia over border demarcation, undiplomatically quipping, 'They're not going to get the Pytalovsky Region; they'll get the ears of a dead donkey.'" succinctly addresses the meaning of the idiom and ties it to Putin's invocation. The Forbes article does not have to be primarily about donkey ears to be applicable; nor is the donkey ears idiom being used as a pretext to bring ancillary or unrelated content from the Forbes article into the WP article, which would be the only concern here. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 14:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-added (reworded) 

message: The article does not discuss centuries of "evolution", please do not rename articles without appropriate discussion first. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 14:07, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title