Talk:Caucasian Albania

message: The map is clearly wrong. It contains regions that were not part of caucasian Albania. It never extends to Sevan lake, same with caucasian Iberia.
:Nope, this map is based on the work of Hewsen (Armenia: A Historical Atlas). --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not. Hewsen's map clearly indicates a difference between actual "Caucasian Albania/Aran" and territory that Persia later annexed from its vassal state Armenia and added to its vassal state Caucasian Albania. As well as using different shading to distinguish the two territories (shading which the map here doesn't have), and different titling (only the original territory is labelled Aran / Albania), Hewsen's map also states: "Classical sources are unanimous in marking the river Cyrus (Kur) the frontier between Albanian and Armenia. Only in the late 4th C AD did the Armenian principalities of Artsakh Utik, Gardman, Sakashen, and Kolt pass under permanent Albanian rule". 78.149.46.96 (talk) 02:43, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Sigh, what era do you think this map is supposed to represent? 3rd-century BC? It is obviously after the 4th-century AD, even the caption says so. The map is a representation of the Albanian kingdom and what it ruled back then, end off. This WP:JDLI is getting too much now. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  this map is wrong. Sotk (Sawdk) has never been part of Albania, and on the original map its borders are even highlighted separately. According to Hewsen (or rather Eremyan) Sotk could have been part of the province of Artsakh (or rather, the ruling house of Sotk also ruled Artsakh), but after Artsakh was lost to Albania in 387, Sotk became part of the province of Syunik (pp. 101-102). Hewsen emphasized that there is no evidence for Eremyan's suggestion that Sotk was part of Artsakh (p. 119). On page 85 (map No. 65) you can see the borders of Armenia after the division of 387 until the year 591, where it is clearly seen that all the lands around Lake Sevan remained part of Armenia (Hewsen, p. 101-102) The exact status of Arc'ax within the Arsacid kingdom is unknown. We hear of no princes of Arc'ax, and Eremyan thought that it must have belonged to the princes of Sawdk' (Cawdk'), a district at the southeast corner of Lake Sevan. In any case, Arc'ax was lost to Albania in 387, while Sawdk' remained as one of the districts of Siwnik'. In addition, your map contradicts most (all?) other authoritative sources on the borders of Caucasian Albania. --Rs4815 (talk) 19:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're right, the map Hewsen shows is different from this one. Also, it's not my map; it's  --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I no longer have access to Hewsen's book. I would appreciate it if one of you could email me Hewsen's map so I can make corrections based on that. — Golden call me maybe? 10:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  The link will expire in 7 days . --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:36, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is the map. --Rs4815 (talk) 11:59, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you both. I'll take a look at it over the weekend. — Golden call me maybe? 13:47, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  The map that Rs4815 sent differs from the Hewsen map on page 41. In addition to the removal of Cawdk, the differences also include changes to the Armenia-Albania border north of Lake Sevan in Tashir and the addition of Lpink to Albania. I'm not too familiar with these changes and would like to know if you think they are accurate enough to make. — Golden call me maybe? 15:49, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the same map, mine is just of horrible quality, making it hard to see what's what. We should stick to the one posted by Rs4815. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure about the need to show the ancient coastline. As for Lpink. Until 387, this region was either a vassal of Albania, or part of it, but Albania lost control over it after 387, when this territory was taken from them by the Persians (along with the Armenian Paytakaran). If this map shows the situation after 387, then Lpink should not be part of Albania, but if the map shows the entire period of the existence of the Albanian kingdom, then both Lpink and the lands south of the Kura should be highlighted in different colors or shaded with the corresponding legend, which is — up to 387 Albania controlled Lpink but did not control the lands south of the Kura, and after 387 the lands south of the Kura were transferred to it, but Albanians lost the Lpink. Hewsen, page 60: It should be noted that the territory that these people inhabited could not have formed a separate kingdom as early as the Arsacid period, for there is no such indication in classical sources, which include all of southeastern Caucasia (north of the River Kur) within Albania. Rather, the emergence of the Lupenian kingdom must have been a consequence of the loss of Albanian control of its easternmost districts after the partition of Armenia in 387, when the Persians gave the Albanians large territories in Eastern Armenia south of the Kur while at the same time depriving them of certain other lands formerly under their control north of the Kur. --Rs4815 (talk) 19:11, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Hewsen shows the ancient coastline on page 41. I think it’s relevant enough to include because it provides context for how close Albania was to the sea at that time. Regarding Lpink and lands south of Kura, feel free to edit the map yourself since it is now vectorized. If not, you may have to wait a week or two for me to edit it since I'm currently busy irl. — Golden call me maybe? 19:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I waited over a month) Can you at least update this file. It is more widely used than the new one you created. --Rs4815 (talk) 13:55, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I created the .svg map so that I wouldn't have to make every little change myself. If you're able to make the change, please go ahead. If not, I'm afraid I won't be able to do it either as it's difficult for me to find the time. As for the .png map, I've updated it using the .svg map. — Golden call me maybe? 14:07, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: New Map

message: File:Кавказская Албания и сопредельные страны в 5-8 веке .н.э.jpg 5.197.255.243 (talk) 06:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about a more accurate map? 

message: 'and only if there was any single "Albanian" language in the first place which is doubtful because the population of Albania/Aghvank was described as consisting of as many 26 different tribes).'
Ahem, we already have an article about the Caucasian Albanian/Aghwan language, we have a huge amount of texts in it that have been deciphered, and medieval Armenian sources themselves, as cited there, narrate how Armenian priests made the alphabet for the language and the translations into it (thereby acknowledging that the language existed, and that it was the main language of the area). Now it seems that while Azeri nationalists, as this article explains at length, want to minimise any historical Armenian presence in Azerbaijan by calling it 'Albanian', Armenian nationalists, including editors of this article, are in turn desperately trying to dismiss and minimise any non-Armenian element in the region's history and ideally deny that there was ever anything like a non-Armenian Albania to speak of, and are even willing to ignore their own historical tradition to that end. (And yes, you *can* have many tribes and yet one main language. It's unclear if the source cited contained the conclusion that there was no Albanian language; it may also have contained just the statement about number of the tribes, while the conclusion may be original research by the editor. Even if it does contain the statement, the source seems to be Armenian and can be expected to be no more unbiased on this subject than Azeri sources can.) 87.126.21.225 (talk) 20:38, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Caucasian Albanian language?