Talk:Hugo Chávez/Archive 3

message: We have seven images in the article right now: 5 of them are "fair use" AP/Reuters, 1 of them is of unknown origin, and 1 was just added (Chavez w/Khatami; what's the license on that?).  Commons has 3 images of Chavez: 2 with Lula and 1 speaking on his own.  They're decent pictures.  I suggest removing two fair use pictures from the article and replacing them with images from commons (we don't really need two images of Chavez with Lula).  What do you think? DanKeshet 20:27, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
Well, I for one don't like the article too much (as I'm no fan of Chavez), but aren't the images regarding the billboard and the march misleading? I mean, there is no image of an opposition march, or a 'No' billboard for that matter. Of course they are true iamges, but it's just telling part of the truth. This obviously changes the neutrality of the article. --ZooTV 18:07, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Hi, I made some changes to the Media section, and to the Strike/Lockout section – thank you to the person who edited the additional paragraphs I added. I still have problems with the article, there seems to be a lot of implications that wouldn't be made if more information was presented.<P>
A specific problems is this sentence: "Alí Rodríguez, then president of PDVSA, handled the difficult crisis confronting the oil industry like the former guerrilla commander that he had been back in the 1960s and 1970s, and rather than trying to look for conciliation with the workers, he chose all out confrontation." I didn't know, but can believe, that Rodriguez was a guerilla commander, but the way that information is presented in this sentence is clearly prejudicious, to my mind. Beyond that the sentence is clearly laying blame on Rodriguez for his handling of the strike/lockout - hardly neutral. Besides, it could easily be argued that by declaring their aim to be the removal of the Chavez administration it was the organisers and participants in the strike/lockout who began the spirit of confrontation.<P>
I would edit this sentence so it read more like, "Rodríguez, then president of PDVSA and former guerrilla commander...", but I think the whole sentence should be axed - indeed the whole strike/lockout section should be drastically re-wrote in my oppinion.
I'm new to this whole wikipedia concept, and unfamiliar with etiquette and procedures - what is the right thing to do about this?
--Hegar 08:24, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right on both counts - to raise a potentially controversial question here first, and that the sentence should go (I've done it). Such general judgemental statements don't belong in Wikipedia; we need to cite (relevant) facts and let readers judge for themselves. Giving the complex and troubled recent history of the Venezuelan oil industry, placing all the blame on Rodriguez is highly POV; disentangling the detail would be a hell of a job I don't have time for.Rd232 09:31, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have deleted the statement "This has been compared to the way the 'interim government', who tried to replace the president during their short-lived coup attempt, robbed the Miraflores safe before escaping the Presidential Palace" since it lacks a proper reference (See my notes below in the Chavez's speeches section). This section still needs further work. Ali Rodriguez was a former guerrilla commander, but I don't think that is particularly relevant here. He no longer is CEO of PDVSA though, and neither is RAfael Rodriguez the minister of mines.  :Jesús 09:51, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Changes Made 

message: I have added a section on the military under Chavez.  I did it pretty quickly, because I figured I was going to get in an edit conflict.  I included a mention that the Venezuelan military has diversified its sources of weaponry, buying from Brazil, Russia, Spain, etc.  It might not be a bad idea to include what they actually bought from each country; we probably have articles on each of the weapons and transports.
Regarding the criticism of their purchases (both those from Brazil and Russia), I have included them here but they might be better off in a new Venezuelan-United States relations article, where it could get into greater detail about all the back-and-forth over the purchases, over the F-16 parts, the "democracy initiative" at the OAS, etc.
DanKeshet 18:54, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
:Excellent work. You might've done it quickly, but I cannot find any problems. 172 18:56, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  100,000 rifles 

message: Don't have the time to pretend to be disquieted by left-wing peons such as yourself, Grace Note, so I'm just gonna paste the simple list I wrote off the top of my head for 172:
I have downloaded two Chávez speeches (available through www.aporrea.org, search for it yourself) as well as a one hour video of his 23 January speech. In merely three speeches, as well as many articles available all over the place (mostly from BBC news and El Tiempo newspaper, as well as the Granma newspaper, CNN and Aporrea but also Indymedia) he:
1) Calls Condoleeza Rice "Condolencia Rice" and says she is in love with him
2) Dares Bush to a bet, as to who will last longer at the presidency "Bush in the White House, or Hugo Chávez in Venezuela"
3) Refers to the cuban refugee community in Miami as a "terrorist mafia"
4) Says he won't return to the US until its people free themselves from the US government
5) Hints at the possibility of becoming a guerrilla if Venezuela were invaded
6) Says he wants to start a nuclear program
7) Purchases 100,000 rifles identical to the ones used by the FARC, for a 30,000 strong army
8) Boasts about his personal friendship to Robert Mugabe
9) Makes incessant rambling about the "oligarchy" in his country
Etc, etc
That these facts aren't included (which hint at his destabilizing activities and alarming governance style, which would make almost any leader in the world a pariah automatically) is a breach of neutrality. That you don't agree with me matters as much as a pile of sawdust. Kapil 05:23, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So it boils down to his making speeches you don't approve of. Please find some verifiable commentary on his speeches. Until you do, I'm going to be removing the tag at every opportunity, since it represents nothing more than your personal opinion of Chavez, and I call on other editors to do the same. Persisting in replacing the tag without substantiating it is not something that is likely to be considered as an act of good faith. Grace Note 05:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You've changed your tune, Kapil. Now you want the article not to feature his speeches but to be filled with your personal libels. I'll be back tomorrow to revert you again. Hopefully, editors with as little respect for your approach as I have will remove the tag, which once again you have placed without substantiating it as I asked. Grace Note 05:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been compared to the way the 'interim government', who tried to replace the president during their short-lived coup attempt, robbed the Miraflores safe before escaping the Presidential Palace. There's no proof the Miraflores safe was robbed by the interim government, and the use of quote marks for the word "interim government" is used with derision by Chávez supporters, not as a grammatical aid or whatever. I changed this to remove the quotes and explain that the robbery is merely a claim, but this was edited out by none other than 172. Objective my ass, you just happen to know how to gang up to make it seem as if you were a majority (what a surprise, you are communist). Oh yeah, I'll also revert, I have a legitimate claim and it won't go away. Kapil 05:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Kapil, "interim government" is put in quotations as a grammatical aid, since it makes reference to what coup plotters called the junta. Not including it in quotations would be tantamount, and as absurd as, calling, e.g., the August 1991 coup in the Soviet Union "State Emergency Committee." 172 06:05, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No it isn't. An interim government is an interim government, as in, the government temporarily in place when the legitimate government isn't. "Interim government" states disbelief, mock or doubt that the entity involved can be considered an actual interim government. Kapil 06:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you seriously arguing that Carmona, who didn't even get any decrees published in the official journal and was ejected within 48 hours, was in any meaningful sense head of a "government", interim or otherwise? "Interim government" in quotes is not an unreasonable description - suggest another if you think it's so terrible. Rd232 07:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Present sources, Kapil. Your opinion is worthless here. Are you just not getting that?Grace Note 06:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: The Saddam Hussein picture. Why remove it? Because his speech at the MRT is more important, or the ALBA is more important? That's not fact, that's an opinion. Therefore, you have no right to remove the Saddam Hussein picture unless you're opining. Are you? Kapil 05:46, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: 172 has explained his reasons for removing that picture. I endorse them. Illustrating the article with photos of Chavez with leaders he often has dealings with is not just more appropriate but is also not inclined to push a POV. Grace Note 06:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is important that Chávez's desire to strengthen his country's international relations with pariah states and distance himself from the US and its allies be mentioned, and the fact he visited a dictator such as Saddam Hussein and approved of his government should be displayed in a picture. That's way more important than his endorsement of the ALBA, though to prevent opinion they should both be included. If you think otherwise, they should both be removed. But both pictures have equal merit. Kapil 06:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You are comparing China's pariah status with Saddam Hussein's. Weak, even for an 8th grade scholar. Kapil 06:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not. I'm just trying to reconstruct your reasoning, attempting to make sense out of the senseless... BTW, I've even been invited to debates to represent the side in favor of PNTR with China (against some labor reps, incidentally). But since I'm the Communist, that's no surprise, right? I would expect someone like you to know better than some pinko who fails to see the "butchers of Tiananmen" as pariahs. 172 07:30, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: You are mistaken if you are comparing China's pariah status to that of Saddam Hussein, even if they're similar in some way in their human rights record. Kapil 18:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Newsflash - Chavez hasn't gone round the world looking for pariah states to associate with (note absence of Burma, North Korea, etc). Associations with Iran, Iraq etc are primarily because of oil. Heard of OPEC? Venezuela's a member! China is simply a trade deal like the US does every day. Only with Castro (and other Latin leftwing leaders like Lula) is there any serious ideological and personal affinity. Get some perspective, kapil. Rd232 07:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Newsflash: http://www.neoliberalismo.com/Archivo-01/KIM.htm -> Read. Oh yeah, he wants that sweet, sweet North Korean oil. You get some perspective, Chávez is meeting with horrid dictators (from Lybians to Iranians, with the infamous "VeneIran" tractor factory (no oil there, is there?), to Saddam Hussein, to his kind words of encouragement to Kim Jong Il). Even if he's doing it for oil, it still makes him repudiable. If he isn't, all the more. Kapil 18:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Oooh, a tractor factory - ye gods, is there no end to this man's madness?! But seriously, normal economic relations with various countries, and developing relationships with countries with similar interests (notably OPEC/oil) is hardly a crime. (And let's not forget US self-interest in relationships with Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan, to name just two.) More worrying is the procession of defence deals, including possibly missiles from North Korea. As for what Chavez associates (or even Chavez himself) said ten years ago, how relevant is that now? Most of the present British Cabinet were leftwing socialist/communist at one time; no danger of them being accused of that these days. Rd232 21:21, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: does it occur to you that perhaps at least some of Chavez's policies are wrongheaded and idiotic, without any rational basis except for general anti-Americanism? J. Parker Stone 20:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Enough of this. Chávez is aligning himself with dictators, for whatever reason, and whether this is benign or not is not a judgement call for us to make. That the US government is benevolent towards Saudi Arabia is something to be treated in the US page, not here. That Chávez has decided to shun the US in favor of questionable leaders such as Qadaffi and Saddam Hussein is something worthy of displaying in a picture, regardless of his motives (be them innocent or macabre). Unless you have some real objections, the Saddam Hussein picture should return. Kapil 21:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yeah, and out of 54 countries in Africa, he most closely aligns himself with Robert Mugabe, another hardcore dictator. Is this because of Mugabe's leverage in OPEC? Perchance because of Zimbabwe's close cultural roots with Venezuela? Pshaw, the facts speak for themselves, I'm not about to let all of you people ignore them for the sake of whatever the hell you're ignoring them for. Kapil 21:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: It's funny how whenever you're in a discussion with left wingers, they always, always tend to think you're an unconditional US supporter and compare everything you say with everything the US does. Kapil 21:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I neither said nor implied that you supported anything - just that it's unreasonable to make a big issue over something (making deals with dictators) which however unsavoury is relatively normal. It should be mentioned, but in proportion to its importance in policy (or events), not in proportion to how objectionable people think it is. Rd232 10:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I've been loathe to get involved in a dispute over images, because it just seems so pointless when there's so much content left to be written.  But when you say "Chavez is aligning himself with dictators" and therefore argue that we should remove pictures of Chavez with Hu and Castro, you must realize how absurd this sounds! DanKeshet 07:22, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Unless Kapil (and the mysterious anon editor, assuming that isn't him) provide reasons for the NPOV tag, or propose changes to make the article neutral, I will remove the tag in a few days. The tag is meant to indicate "work in progress on the POV issue", but that's not really happening now, and can't until Kapil responds with his precise concerns as they relate to an encyclopedia article. Rd232 20:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: And the tag is meant to say "this article's neutrality is disputed', as it's stated by the tag itself. That work isn't being done to correct this is irrelevant, as these people seriously consider the article to be encyclopedic content when many, many equally important facts are simply omitted, thus the information presented is mostly of pro-Chávez sources. Hardly neutral. Kapil 21:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Not good enough. You need to be more specific about criticisms, or propose revisions. Otherwise the NPOV tag will eventually be removed regardless. Rd232 07:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there are specific criticisms all over the place. Read. Kapil 19:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "All over the place" is right. We need a list of concrete things that need fixing that we can then work through. Either that, or just make the edits you think necessary (maybe proposing them here first if likely to be controversial). The NPOV tag means something is broken. Let's try and fix it. Rd232 20:17, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: This question is meant mostly for Kapil, as he brought it up, but others feel free to chime in: what do you want for an "economic policy" section?  I bring it up because some of the things brought up earlier (economic indicators like unemployment, GDP, etc.) would seem better in a section on their own, entirely outside of the "policy" section, in the new Chávez administration article.  There, they can be given the multi-narrative treatment.  Things that I think might be appropriate for an "economic policy" section include capital export controls, minimum wage, attempts to use some of the currency reserves, etc.  But really, virtually the entire "policy" section could fit under an "economic" header: many of the social policies (land reform, state-subsidized food and health care, oil hawkishness, oil taxes) could be classified as economic policies.  DanKeshet 14:58, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
:There's really enough for an independent Economic policy section: Protectionism, currency controls, vast minimum wage increases, state intervention in the economy, etc. That and the erratic mismanagement of the economy and PDVSA, are enough to create a full subsection. They also belong in their own section, as they're economic policies. Kapil 20:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  economic policy