Talk:Rudy Giuliani/Archive 2

message: For John McCain we have an extensive list of political views, and for Hillary Clinton we have Political views of Hillary Rodham Clinton.  But we scarcely have anything for Rudy.  Simesa 00:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've create a Political views section, and have started to populate it with material.  I moved the immigration material mentioned just above into it, since it didn't belong in the Mayoralty section.   Wasted Time R 18:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Political Views of Rudy Giuliani

message: Does anyone know what Giuliani's position on the war in Iraq is?   [21:56, 6 February 2007 220.239.204.81]
Sorry that I'm a novice on the workings of this site, but Rudy has fully supported Bush in every way on the issue of Iraq. 
More telling, is the fact that Rudy's star head of security at Giuliani Partners was Bernie Kerik, who trained the Iraqi police force before mysteriously leaving before the job was done. (And I think it's safe to say that Kerik didn't do a very good job.) Kerik of course no longer works at GP and Rudy says that was Kerik's decision, meaning Rudy wanted to keep on the man who trained the Iraqi police. That's a devastating bit of information the mainstream media will not discuss. And I can't post it unless the media reports it!?
Chris 
empiregoodness@yahoo.com    [01:39, 16 March 2007 69.22.244.175]
:That is correct; read WP:NOR.  Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth.   Wasted Time R 01:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Iraq

message: Where in the article is there a mention of Rudy's highly significant and suspiciously curious foreknowledge that the towers would collapse as is proven in the following clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hNmf76GUCw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=426_gsf9pZc
?
--Hyper_Anonymous   [04:14, 17 March 2007 24.121.179.99]
:There's a conspiracy theory article somewhere that I'm sure you'll be delighted to help edit.  This here, on the other hand, is a reality-based article.   Wasted Time R 04:40, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The first clip is just him getting warned a few minutes before the tower collapsed that it was in danger of doing so.  Doesn't imply any foreknowledge or conspiracy.  The second clip is the one I was referring to.  As for the section header, I created a new one for this topic.  As for the length of the 9/11 treatment in this article, here is the table of contents on it:  
# 6 September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks
    * 6.1 At the scene
    * 6.2 "America's Mayor"
    * 6.3 2001 Mayoral election controversy
    * 6.4 Time Person of the Year
    * 6.5 Criticism for lack of preparedness before the 9/11 attacks
    * 6.6 Criticism for handling of Ground Zero air quality issue
Doesn't seem "short" to me overall.  However, I agree that the "At the scene" subsection needs some description of where Giuliani was at the time of the WTC burning and then collapsing.  I think there was some material there previously, but it got lost in edit battles about NYC emergency preparedness.  I'll try to recover or write something on this when the article opens up again.   Wasted Time R 12:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Giuliani and the towers collapsing

message: The organization of this article had become pretty bad - inappropriate material in the intro, no early years section, the post-mayoral section had way too many choppy short sections, the personal life material was scattered and lacked simple date information - so I've endeavoured to improve it.   Wasted Time R 00:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Org work

message: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0212072giuliani1.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yeago (talk • contribs) 18:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smoking Gun Research 

message: I very strongly disagree with Giuliani on his sheltering of illegal aliens, but I believe it is only reasonable to cite what he actually said, including his reasons, rather than Michelle Malkin's polemic (if not at all unfair) characterization of it. 69.143.31.101 16:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Immigration

message: I added an election tag since Giuliani is a candidate for 2008. JQLibet 18:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Election

message: I changed the statement that he was the first elected Republican Mayor of New York since Lindsay's re-election in 1969 to Lindsay's election in 1965 due to the fact that Lindsay was not the Republican nominee in the 1969 election.  If you were to argue that Lindsay was not the Republican nominee but he still was a Republican then you would need to change the 1997 reelection comment regarding Rudy being the first re-elected Republican Mayor since LaGuardia in 1941 to Lindsay in 1969. Since the LaGuardia remark was sourced (23).....
Reddawnz 19:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now fixed.   Wasted Time R 17:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mayorial Elections

message: The rate of anon vandalism has gone way up lately.  This article needs semi-protection (blocking anons and newly registered users), the same as Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton and others of this ilk have.  Wasted Time R 22:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, anons have been making some useful edits to the article, so I guess this call is premature.   Wasted Time R 03:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Need semi-protection

message: Note that subarticles have now been created for Rudy Giuliani presidential campaign, 2008 and Political views of Rudy Giuliani, and the material here moved into them; this is in line with how Hillary Rodham Clinton, Barack Obama, and other similar articles have been structured.  Wasted Time R 03:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Creating a daughter article, to present one part of a subject in more detail without cluttering the main article, is fine.  In such instances, however, Wikipedia:Summary style calls for the main article to retain a brief summary of the material that's been spun off.  I think it's especially important that a bio of a politician retain at least the basic information about his or her political views.  I'll try to create such a summary.  (Admittedly, summarizing often raises the touchiest NPOV issues, because there's some POV inherent in deciding what's important enough to be in the main article, but we have to make the effort.) JamesMLane t c 03:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've added this for the Political views section in the main article.  I've done what most of the other 2008 candidates have there, a description of poll results showing how the American public views them on the L-M-C spectrum.  Trying to otherwise summarize political views is, as you suggest, a foolhardy enterprise. Wasted Time R 23:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I said it was difficult, not foolhardy.  I think it's something that has to be attempted.  Poll results about overall orientation are worth including, but the basic bio article should have more than just the politician's image.  There should be some information about his or her views on major issues, for the benefit of a reader who comes to the article with no prior knowledge.  Trying to purge the article of all such information is  JamesMLane t c 07:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subarticles created

message: Does charging people for speeches make someone a businessman? myclob [17:15, 24 February 2007]
:If you have a cite saying he's done nothing else in his companies than that, please provide.  Wasted Time R 23:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All I can say is, you have to do a lot more reading about Wikipedia's rules and guidelines before you have any chance of becoming effective here.  Or you can just run for Mayor again.   Wasted Time R 02:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Rudy is a businessman" 

message: myclob 17:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is, in both the infobox and the Early life section.   Wasted Time R 21:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is Romney's religion mentioned and not Rudy's? 

message: Our article currently states that, when Giuliani ran for Mayor in 1993, the city "was suffering from an all-time high in the crime rate".  The source cited in support of that assertion says, in its first sentence no less, that "crime in New York City took a downturn starting around 1990...."  Thus, our article flatly misstates the facts.  It adopts the mass media's view that the decline in the crime rate must have come under the mayoralty of a white former prosecutor, and that the city's first black mayor couldn't possibly have had anything to do with it.  We shouldn't join in the practice of giving Giuliani a free pass on the crime issue. JamesMLane t c 05:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime statistics 

message: An editor repeatedly removes the following.
It is neither redudant nor irrelevant:
The New York Daily News reported that Giuliani learned of his daughter's acceptance to Harvard only upon reading of the admission in the Daily News. Giuliani has been absent from his son's golf tournaments and from his daughter's starring performances in theatrical productions. Daniel Saltonstall, "Wife Makes Strive: Judi cause of tension with Dad -Rudy's son," New York Daily News, March 3, 2007 Dogru144 17:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article already says that Giuliani is estranged from his children, "missing major events in their lives and sometimes going long stretches without talking to them," and gives the same Daily News cite.  You're just repeating the same material later in the paragraph, to no useful purpose other than maliciously piling on.  Wasted Time R 17:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Relevant and not redundant

message: User:Wasted Time R made a wholesale revert with the ES "revert back to last sane version without anti-Giuliani attacks everywhere; I will reapply legit changes".  Many "legit changes" were, however, lost in this revert and not restored (or possibly messed up in subsequent edits).  Some points that I'm fixing, with rationale:
* It's generally a bad idea to include statements like "In the wake of the attacks, Giuliani was hailed for his leadership during the crisis."  This makes it sound like a conclusion that the article is reaching, rather than a report of an opinion held by some.  Better is to say that he was "hailed by some", to make clear that it's an opinion, and still better is to include a citation to at least one prominent spokesperson for that point of view (see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words).  Some places in this article still need citation.  At some point, if citations aren't forthcoming, the report of the opinion should be deleted altogether. As an interim improvement, "was hailed by some" (and similar phrases) should replace the simple "was hailed".
* There was criticism of Giuliani concerning the siting of the Emergency Management Center, and the report of this criticism should not have been deleted.  I've created a subheading on "Before the attacks" to accommodate that material.  That section can also include information about his monumental foul-up concerning the first responders' radios, as soon as someone writes it up with citation to sources.
* It's POV to say that September 11 was "the defining moment" of Giuliani's term in office.  The objective fact is that he was highly visible.  Certainly many people praised his alleged "leadership" during that time, an opinion that can be reported with proper attribution and citation.  On the other hand, there are many of us who believe that he received considerable favorable publicity based on little more than the happenstance that he was the Mayor at the time of the attack.  ("All he did was act like a compassionate human being for a few weeks--granted, quite a feat for a man who announced his plans for divorce on TV before he told his wife--and people were calling him a hero." ) It's also puffery to say, "He balanced the need to make hundreds of decisions directly and immediately, to delegate hundreds of others, and to visit the injured and console the families of the dead."
I haven't compared the different versions with regard to their treatment of adultery and other personal issues. JamesMLane t c 22:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't accusing you of all the bad edits ... but there was a ton of junk in there, conspiracy theories about why the WTC towers went down, long-winded edits about Dinkins right in the intro, etc.  I assure you I am not trying to whitewash Giuliani ... I've been adding Controversies entries, and have tried to do my best describing the timeline of his tangled personal life, as you can see from my recent edits.  But I'm trying to do it in a neutral way, not slanted.  Wasted Time R 22:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand.  Having survived the editing of the Bush and Kerry articles in the fall of 2004, I know that there's often such a swirl of edits that keeping track of who did what when is more trouble than it's worth.  I posted as I did because I believe that, especially in articles about controversial subjects, explanations of significant edits (beyond what will fit in an ES) can help the collaboration process. JamesMLane t c 23:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm okay with most of your edits, but "hailed by many" is more accurate than "hailed by some" (I could try to dig out a post-9/11 opinion poll), and your new "Before the attacks" subsection was duplicative of the existing "Criticism for lack of preparedness before the 9/11 attacks" subsection; I've merged your content into that one.   Wasted Time R 23:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You also don't seem to credit enough the anti-Giuliani material that is already in the article, such as Sharpton's "Bozo could have lead us" quote, the handling of air quality, etc.   Wasted Time R 23:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I can also say that edit battles over how Giuliani is characterized in the intro will go on forever.  On the Hillary Rodham Clinton intro, we solved that by stripping the intro of anything that wasn't an obvious incontrovertible fact.  Makes it very short, if nothing else ... Wasted Time R 23:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a problem with the organization of the article, with material relating to 9/11 being split up the way it is.  Similarly, the placement of the Sharpton quotation exemplifies the scattering of material relating to the different reactions to his post-9/11 actions.  I think that "hailed by many" should be removed but I won't bother doing it right now, because I want to think about addressing this overall problem.  The same section has a "Giuliani was widely praised...." sentence, added to all the stuff about "America's Mayor", and even his appearance at a single baseball game.  This is overkill (and would be even if bolstered by a citation or two). JamesMLane t c 07:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of my edit 

message: Let me point out a horrible paragraph. It's under the major heading "Mayoral campaigns, 1989, 1993, 1997", and within that heading, it's under "1993 campaign and election".
Here's the paragraph: "Giuliani promised a return to social order, addressing day-to-day issues rather than past or imminent crises: Poverty, welfare, and the prevalence of homeless panhandlers on streets and subways, and improving New York City's image via improvements on crime, infrastructure and urban revitalization."
It's unclear whether terms that come after the colon ("Poverty, welfare", etc) have to do with "day to day issues" or "past or imminent crises".  This should be made explicit. It's tempting to delete the entire paragraph. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dlbarber (talk • contribs) 23:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  I've junked it.  I think the next paragraph with the RG quote was saying the same thing, anyway.  Wasted Time R 23:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Horrible paragraph 

message: "His public visibility in the days following the attacks earned him the nickname "America's Mayor."  The statement about the purported nickname seems factually implausible -- does anyone actually use that term to address or refer to RG?  It's also, obviously, not NPOV.  If someone, somewhere, actually referred to him that way, and that fact is somehow noteworthy, just say that. Bassomatic 21:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an American thing ... there is a tradition in sports of anointing certain teams, such as the Dallas Cowboys in American football, as "America's Team".  Then other things began being called "America's <whatever>", and the Rudy label came from that.   Wasted Time R 22:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, it's quite common and notable; the nickname was given by Oprah Winfrey, accoridng to The Economist . It doesn't take much basic research to turn up that Google News Archive finds 580 hits for giuliani "america's mayor", most dating from before his current presidential race, and many even in articles that are negative about him. --Delirium 13:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "America's Mayor"? 

message: I'm torn between being amused and being appalled that the intro line identifies Giuliani as "Sir Rudolph"! Giuliani is an American. No one carries that sort of title in the United States, regardless of what someone whom the Founders would have called a "foreign potentate" might have bestowed on him. It has zero validity. Unless "Sir Rudy" is in the process of becoming a British citizen, I believe strongly that this appelation should be removed. Anyone? --Michael K. Smith 02:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You caught a bad edit that was up for a couple of hours.  It isn't normally like that.  Remember, with Wikipedia it's not what you read, it's when you read it!   Wasted Time R 02:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Giuliani is an American, people do not call him by "Sir". By the way, even though he's not called "Sir", I think we should put KBE beside Rudolph Giuliani's name because he accepted the British honor. E.g. Rudolph Giuliani KBE (born.....).... --Sli723 22:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, not that either.  See Talk:Rudy_Giuliani/Archive_1#Knighthood for prior discussion.  Wasted Time R 01:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Sir Rudolph"???

message: Why would Harding's child porn conviction not be mentionable alongside his other felony? Giuliani selected the son of a close political ally to head a vitally important city agency despite a complete absence of qualifications on the appointee's part. The appointee turns out to be not only a crook but a collector of child porn. Giuliani was elected on a "return morality to NYC" platform and as mayor repeatedly attacked those who did not agree with his own values. Both of Harding's convictions demonstrate his character and it seems to me reflect on the character of the man who appointed him. The full nature of the convictions of any Giuliani appointee are certainly more relevant to this article than Andrew's golf prowess.... 141.155.63.6 18:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If Giuliani makes an unqualified patronage hire who turns out to use his position to embezzle from the public trough, that's a very reasonable criticism of Giuliani.  The crime is connected to the appointment.  If this hire also happens to dabble in some hidden personal vice, that happens to get discovered by accident in the course of the embezzlement investigation, that's a private crime, not a public crime, and one that's not really something that can be held against Giuliani.  Wasted Time R 18:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Harding Scandal

message: In the Crime section, the following quote appears: 
"Bratton, not Giuliani, was featured on the cover of Time magazine in 1996 and was subsequently fired by Giuliani. Many believe that Giuliani fired Bratton in order to receive full media credit for New York's improved crime rate. [29]" 
The problem is the citation [29] is to the 1996 Time Magazine article.  It does not back up in anyway the claim that Giuliani fired Bratton to get full media credit.  I am removing that claim until someone backs it up with evidence.--GFrege 23:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Citation now given, and mention of Giuliani forcing out Bratton reworded and restored.   Wasted Time R 01:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation Needed

message: [ moved here from User talk:Wasted Time R ] 
you have gone to 4 RRs i think, you could easily be blocked, please revert your last edit, and bring this to the talk page, it is perfectly legitimate to have a section on his positons on gays while mayor, it is also perfectly legitimate to have a section on his positions on abortions then, a couple lines of material was included post mayor to bring a little balance to the abortion section, he looks much worse (to republicans at least) without a little material on his more recent abortion stances next to his views while mayor...anyways please revert yourself your last edit in good faith as it was a 4th RR...otherwise your getting warnings and a possible block129.132.239.8 18:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, we're starting to make some progress.  We will leave in the mayoral opinions on abortion as a compromise in your direction, but I copyedited that section to take out the superfluous description of what a partial-birth abortion is (that's what the wikilink is for).  I see you added the entire "Championing of gays" section to Political_views_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Gay_rights, which is the right place for it; accordingly I restored the smaller gay rights section, which uses your language but is restricted to just what occurred during the mayoralty.  That leaves the Queer as Folk thing.  This is an appearance that never happened, and as such is not very important, certainly not enought to warrant its own section!  It belongs in the section that already details his three (not one, as your material falsely states) other drag performances.  Wasted Time R 23:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You are unresponsive to most of my points and you are reverting subsequent edits I've made which have nothing to do with this.  And do you really believe that gay and drag should be the first two sections that discuss the mayoralty, that they were the most important things that happened during those eight years, ahead of crime control and the rest?  You are clearly just pushing an anti-Giuliani agenda to try to make him look bad in the eyes of conservative voters.  Unless your edits improve I am just going to keep reverting them.  If the admins come in to sort this out, they can decide.   Wasted Time R 00:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: If you study the edit history you'll see how wrong you are.  I introduced most of the Controversies sections.  I dug out all the information on his marriages, affairs, etc. in excruciating detail.  But I am putting things into perspective.  Whatever Giuliani thinks about gays, it's a relatively minor item in the course of his political life.  But it's something you can't seem to get past.  Wasted Time R 00:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Regarding your earlier point, I agree with you that the 'Political views' subarticle structure does lend itself to duplication issues.      I'm not sure that politician articles really work well this way.  But that's how most of the current presidential candidate articles are structured, and since 'Political views' material tends to get very lengthy, with many subsections and quotes dumped in, just as a practical matter the separate article structure tends to be necessary.   Wasted Time R 00:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Gays and abortion are a big issue for Giuliani now that he's running for president and trying to appeal to base Republican voters nationwide.  But trust me, they were not a big issue when he was mayor!  In New York, his positions were those of a vast majority of the city's voters and did not attract much attention.  His mayoralty was about crime, urban quality of life, police brutality, his authoritarian personality, his conflicts with other city politicians, all of that.  The article needs to reflect Giuliani's history in context, not just what's hot on the political menu now.   Maybe you should give some attention to Rudy Giuliani presidential campaign, 2008 if you want to focus on his political challenges now.   Wasted Time R 00:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  please revert your last rudi guliani edit 

message: well that was disgusting removing all mention of gay issues and abortion issues from the page. You must just be a Guliani political operative. Theres no way I'll vote for this guy now.CrystalizedAngels 01:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just for the record, the page mentions gay issues in Rudy_Giuliani#Gay_rights, drag in Rudy_Giuliani#Media_management (if you consider that gay, which is a whole 'nother topic), and abortion in Rudy_Giuliani#Abortion.  And of course, the page references Political views of Rudy Giuliani, which covers gay issues in Political_views_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Gay_rights and abortion in Political_views_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Abortion, both at greater length and extending beyond the mayoralty.   Wasted Time R 01:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The fact that he stayed at a gay couple's apartment is mentioned, in Rudy_Giuliani#Personal_life at the point where it happened. It would help if you actually read the whole article. Note also that someone else tried to take that out a while back but I put it back in.  Wasted Time R 01:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Do you have any familiarity with New York politics?  Giuliani ran for mayor sharing the Liberal Party of New York line.  Read Conservative Party of New York too.  Michael Long and his party withheld support for Giuliani in all three mayoral campaigns because they thought he was too liberal.  It would help if you actually knew something about this whole period.  Wasted Time R 01:40, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: That he ran with the Liberal Party line is mentioned, in Rudy_Giuliani#1989_campaign_and_defeat.  You really have trouble reading, don't you?  It's also implied in the Rudy_Giuliani#Promotion_of_Russell_Harding section, which I put in by the way.  I agree that the article should expand this to state that he ran on the Liberal Party line, and was not supported on the Conservative Party line, in all three elections.  I expect you to know this because you (or I or anyone!) is not supposed to be doing editing of an article unless you understand what the article is about.  Your view of American politics, and especially New York politics, is way too simplistic.  Wasted Time R 01:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: As a final note, your vow above to change other candidates' articles to be just as "all positive" as you (wrongly) claim this one to be, is a violation of WP:POINT.  Wasted Time R 02:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Where we stand after the lockdown

message: :As the small print of the tag says, this is only intended for Talk pages. Go to Template talk:Activepolitician if you want to re-purpose it.  Or join Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics or some such group.  Wasted Time R 12:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PS: for wiki-accuracy sake this tag should be on the ''article'' at top and ''not just'' the talk page 

message: "Others, however, criticized him as divisive and authoritarian."  I'm no fan of Rudy, but this seems out of place.  Just about every high profile politician in the US has been labeled divisive, many authoritarian.  I don't think this adds value to a reader's knowledge about the person. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.111.189.44 (talk) 05:13, 22 March 2007
I added a quote by the New York Times from a 1994 speech at a New York Post forum on crime in which he confirms the authoritarian part in his own words to the article on his views and its sourced too (directly to the New York Times). see:Political_views_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Freedom_and_Authority  I think that helps to confirm that the opening line should be included. Life, Liberty, Property 06:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is laughable: "Others, however, criticized him as divisive and authoritarian" Of course he would be labeled with such charaterstics: he was doing the job of taking wanton license from over-empowered criminals, stray indigents, and other socio-deconstructionists.  He made this city --my city-- livable.  Is that a crime?  To some fools, it is.  I remember life in the 1980s; it was not civilized.    The New York Times is in the business of reporting to as broad an audience as possible.  Who cares what they say.  Giuliani is the best thing that ever happened to New York in the last 50 or so years.  Period.  (Now attack me, Wiki-fools...) 70.107.104.75 16:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Giuliani was criticized as divisive far more than most politicians.  It's a notable feature of his mayoralty as opposed to, say, those of his predecessor (Dinkins) or successor (Bloomberg).  The pro-Giuliani puffery about his alleged successes in NYC is also given space in this article.  My opinions about the puffery are similar to your opinions about the criticism -- and are equally immaterial.  The article reports significant POVs even if some editors think those POVs are laughable. JamesMLane t c 16:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia teaches us that today, the essential nature of truth is now subjective, perhaps even "democrasized".  The fact is, Truth is not a hubriated mob opinion, no matter how benevolent the mob thinks it is.  For this reason, Wiki is a failure in many ways. 67.87.92.56 15:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia doesn't teach anything about Truth.  Wikipedia is not about Truth; read the first sentence of WP:V.  Wasted Time R 17:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I rest my case.  Check mate.  "Wikipedia is not about Truth"  LOL.  Verifiability?  This forum should be called "Yentepedia!!!" 70.107.104.75 17:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not crazy about WP:V either.  But it's their playground.  You wanna play, you play by their rules.  Wasted Time R 19:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever.  Don't ever worry about not living up to your name.  You have indeed earned it. 19:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, and thank you!   Wasted Time R 19:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  LOL.  Have a good one! 70.107.104.75 19:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening Line out of place 

message: It has just been revealed that Giuliani's  current wife has been married and divorced twice before, not once as previously thought.  Here is the citation: 
http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/03/giuliani-wife-each-married-three-times.html
Together the pair has 4 divorces/anulments and 6 marriages. Shows how much they love marriage. This should go in when the page is unlocked.
--Anon
:The Judith Giuliani article was updated earlier today with this.  I'm skeptical that it really pertains to this article.   Wasted Time R 18:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Six marriages 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Rudy Giuliani. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070207/7giulianifacts.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080725173611/http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/chrnprep08/dncgiuliani121306.html to http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/chrnprep08/dncgiuliani121306.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120509173630/http://www.blackpressusa.com/history/Archive_essay.asp?NewsID=1538&Week=45 to http://www.blackpressusa.com/history/archive_essay.asp?NewsID=1538&Week=45
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It is obvious his name has been vandalized. No one has 4-5 names. Only 3 are legal. Also, why would an Italian Catholic have German and English names?119.92.93.84 (talk) 04:15, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: While it may seem that way, A&E Television's Biography site supports his full name as being the one also given here. —ADavidB 20:17, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Vandalism 

message: The fact that Mr Giuliani was the Mayor of New York should be in the opening sentence, as it's the highest office he's achieved and an office of great significance  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.73.160.159 (talk) 08:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed and done. —ADavidB 13:54, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening Sentence 

message: There you go again Bbb23 replacing my properly sourced piece with the non-existent linked and autobiographical sourced piece. This is an embarrassment to wikipedia claiming the mayor (dinkins) who presided over the 4 bloodiest years in NYC history "lowered crime more dramatically and rapidly than anyone in history". Why don't you argue facts bbb23? Because you HAVE NONE to stand on. Aceruss (talk) 01:09, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll add my opinion that Aceruss' recent reliably sourced edits should be allowed to stand.  If there are reliable opposing sources, include them as well, but don't simply remove the sourced information and claim a lack of consensus. —ADavidB 12:32, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see where any of them mention the subject of this article, Giuliani. Looks like WP:SYNTH. Objective3000 (talk) 13:18, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: As she/he usually does, Aceruss cherry-picks. Murders notwithstanding, violent crime in New York City declined for 36 consecutive months under Dinkins. Giuliani can (and has) tell whatever lies about his predecessor that he'd like to, but Wikipedia editors don't get to erase history to suit their hero's narrative. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 13:44, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

text: Concur with  and . General Ization Talk    15:21, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

text: MShabazz you'll note I did not erase the part about crime lowering at end of Dinkins term, I ADDED the fact with RS that violent crime went up the first part of his term for factual balance.Aceruss (talk) 17:20, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless backed up by RS, Mayor Dinkins' self-serving, extraordinary claims have no place in this article. How did this blatant propaganda creep into the article in the first place? Scaleshombre (talk) 15:32, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: How's this for an RS.  http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/home/poa_crime.shtml  General Ization Talk    15:58, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

text: And this. http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs-en-us-city.pdf General Ization Talk    15:59, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

text: Don't know who added that. But, it appears to have been written by Leonard Riggio, not Dinkins. I think the point of the current text is that the self-serving narrative from Giuliani that he is the source of a crime drop in NYC is highly controversial. Some articles: , , 
About 3 years ago PK800 added the following sentence ("Under Dinkins's Safe Streets, Safe Cities program, crime in New York City decreased more dramatically and more rapidly, both in terms of actual numbers and percentage, than at any time in modern New York City history") to at least SEVEN Wikipedia articles with NO consensus and NO discussion on the talk page. He later expanded on the sentence. He was reverted many times by many users but he just kept reverting. He was warned but just kept it up until he got his way. This isn't how Wikipedia is supposed to work.Aceruss (talk) 16:09, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

text: Again, I don't see Dinkins' claims anywhere. And, the General and I have provided five additional cites. Objective3000 (talk) 16:25, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I respect your writing Objective3000, but none of those 5 articles say that Dinkins lowered violent crime more than anyone else in history. In fact some prove it way off the mark.Aceruss (talk) 17:20, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: By my count, you have made nine nearly identical, removal edits that have been reverted by multiple editors, and now a tenth during a discussion. It’s a wonder that you haven’t been blocked. Are you really surprised that no one wants to have a discussion with you? WP is built upon the concept of consensus. You have failed to build a consensus for a change. Your edits have also wiped out large amounts of text without a rational. Now, if you wish to actually discuss this, I suggest that you self-revert your last revert and try to build a consensus for a change (before you end up at AI). It’s entirely possible that you may gain consensus for removal for one sentence that you don’t like. It’s highly unlikely that you will gain consensus for removal of all the text that you have tried to remove. That’s just my opinion. But, like others here, I’m not really amenable to a discussion with someone that doesn’t follow the guidelines. Objective3000 (talk) 23:59, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You say I have made nine identical edits INCORRECT. I have tried every kind of edit imaginable in an effort to work with you guys on improving an article. Each time one of 3 or 4 editors has reverted the ENTIRE piece. I have- Written an entirely new paragraph with a dozen RS. I have edited a sentence or two, I have deleted a sentence or two, I have added a sentence or two, all these different times with plenty of proper RS. I even added "according to Dinkins autobiography" before the most outlandish claims and that was reverted too. I tried recently to add for balance that violent crime went up the first part of Dinkins term again with plenty of RS to balance that it went down the latter part of his term, which I left in. I have tried many different types of edits and tried to work with you guys. Answer me these two questions then:
1) I have used the talk pages right from the beginning. Why was it OK for PK800 to add this Dinkins text to Giuliani's page with ZERO consensus and ZERO discussion on the talk page? And then to keep reverting the reverts of his additions? Why must his improperly added, improperly sourced text stand?
2) Show me sources other than the foreword in Dinkins autobiography that say Dinkins lowered crime more than anyone else in history-the sources you cited above said "he wasn't as bad as they say" "or crime started to drop at the end of his term" and the like, a far cry from the greatest crimefighter NYC has ever knownAceruss (talk) 06:14, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mayoralty 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Rudy Giuliani. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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replies: text: Used the next older archive, which displayed properly for me —ADavidB 00:39, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I saw the Administrator's notice and came over to see what the fuss was about. On the issue of issuing credit for the drop in crime, there appears to be a discrepancy.  In the lede, it says:
 Within several years, Giuliani was widely credited for major improvements in the city's quality of life, and in lowering the rate of violent crimes. Gina M Robertiello, "Giuliani, Rudolph", pp. 687–99, in Wilbur R. Miller, ed, The Social History of Crime and Punishment in America: An Encyclopedia (Thousand Oaks CA, New Delhi, London: Sage Publications, 2012).
yet in the article we have this:
 The extent to which Giuliani deserves the credit is disputed. Levitt, Steven D.: "Understanding Why Crime Fell in the 1990s: Four Factors that Explain the Decline and Six that Do Not", Journal of Economic Perspectives, 18(1), 163–90
I read Freakonomics, where Levitt expands upon that report in a chapter about this exact issue.  In the book, greater credit for the fall in crime is given to the availability of birth control. So besides the fact that the two sentences on their own are inconsistent, I question whether we can use the term "widely credited" by itself.  I can't read the Miller encyclopedia source, so I have no way to tell what it actually says about assigning credit, but unless it makes that specific claim and cites numerous sources itself, putting in the term "widely credited" likely fails WP:OR. How about a caveat in the lede instead:
 Within several years, Giuliani was widely credited for major improvements in the city's quality of life, and in lowering the rate of violent crimes, although the amount of credit due has been disputed.
? TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 23:10, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, you have a point. But, I don’t think Freakonomics is a great source – certainly not on its own and given the reasoning. There are many other sources that come to the same conclusion with better reasoning; which is a long subject of debate on this talk page. Objective3000 (talk) 00:11, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is why I didn't make the change myself, not wanting to jump into a fray, but it seems that changing the verbiage is justified. Note my suggested new verbiage doesn't say widely disputed - just disputed - and so Freakonomics does work for that muted qualifier. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 00:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

text: Since you brought up the lede, another problem is the word and. Lowering violent crime is one of the improvements (probably the main one) alluded to in the preceding clause. It should be worded "Within several years, Giuliani was widely credited for major improvements in the city's quality of life, such as lowering the rate of violent crimes." Scaleshombre (talk) 01:08, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Lowering the quality of life for some. Not others. That's another subject of debate about his stewardship. Objective3000 (talk) 01:13, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

text: Also, if we're going to start tweaking the lede to give a more precise view of Giuliani's mayoralty, then we really need to take a closer look at the David Dinkins lede. The current wording paints a glowing portrait of the Dinkins years, making no reference to the widely held perception at the time of a city increasingly out of control and a mayor incapable of governing it. Scaleshombre (talk) 01:23, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing at a time though.  I agree that part of what improves quality of life is crime reduction.  I think my qualifier can work here too.  How about: 
 Within several years, Giuliani was widely credited for major improvements in the city's quality of life, including lowering the rate of violent crimes, although the amount of credit due has been disputed. 
TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 05:31, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  seeking consensus for claim in lede 

message: The info box prominently notes that Giuliani was awarded a KBE... shouldn't that be "KBE (Hon)" or something similar (to indicate that the award was honorary) Blueboar (talk) 10:58, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  KBE in infobox 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I reverted the addition of  to the infobox here. Giuliani's first marriage ended by both divorce and annulment, and the template can't handle that. His third marriage is on-going; filing for divorce doesn't end a marriage, that takes an agreement between the parties or a court order. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:25, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of marriage templates 

message: I happen to think the  original photo is better than the  proposed one, so I reverted it back.  In the newer one, his eyes are closed and there are shadows on his chin.  What do others think?Work permit (talk) 01:26, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not. It's poor quality, and is cropped awkwardly (I'm sure  would agree with that). Anyway, :File:Rudy Giuliani by Gage Skidmore.jpg was used from September 1, 2016 until an unexplained change on November 13, 2017 by an IP. You clearly didn't object to it then, and now all of a sudden you object? The original is old, outdated, and in poor quality. His eyes are not closed in the one by Gage, he is just squinting, just like the one you reverted to. Corky 02:08, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I do agree the crop is odd, but I guess we disagree on the eyes, the shadows, and the overall look.  I think it would be fair to hear from a couple of other editorsWork permit (talk) 02:13, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Do I need to crop it so you can see his eyeballs? They are clearly open, just the same as the horribly cropped picture in the infobox now. Corky 02:58, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don’t like the shadows in his eyes, his chin.  And I don’t like the color rendering. Work permit (talk) 04:36, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Of the two, my personal preference is :File:Rudy Giuliani.jpg. Have you looked at the dozens of images on Commons to see if there's a better choice than either of those two? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: My personal favorite is :File:Giuliani_closeup.jpg, since I think it is a better crop.  Work permit (talk) 02:43, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Not sure why I was pinged here, but I concur with Malik Shabazz as :File:Rudy Giuliani.jpg has better lighting. Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:39, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mainly because of this edit. This picture is horrible and is a "very awkward view" of Rudy. Corky 02:58, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Between the two images under primary discussion, I prefer :File:Rudy Giuliani.jpg. If we can do without a flag in the background, I think :File:Giuliani_closeup.jpg is better still. —ADavidB 07:58, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

text: Changed to :File:Giuliani_closeup.jpg Work permit (talk) 05:30, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox Photo 

message: Chapter "Presidential campaign supporter" has a duplicated sentence:
During the campaign, Giuliani praised Trump for his worldwide accomplishments and helping fellow New Yorkers in their time of need.[221] He defended Trump against allegations of racism,[222] sexual assault,[223] and not paying any federal income taxes for as long as two decades.[224] During the campaign, Giuliani praised Trump for his worldwide accomplishments and helping fellow New Yorkers in their time of need.[221]  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.54.201 (talk) 01:13, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: This duplication is removed.  Thanks —ADavidB 05:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplication (done) 

message: politico.com 29 August 2018 
I'm european => I don't have the context knowledge to bring some of this into the article. I'm hinting to this article hoping that a fellow wikipedian brings it into the article if (s)he thinks it's worth mentioning it.  best regards, --Neun-x (talk) 18:55, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Giuliani got paid for advocacy in Romania" 

message: Giuliani has never been a commonwealth citizen or resident, so according to style guidelines the KBE mark should not follow his name. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 04:50, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now:  Comparing to other people with honorary knighthoods such as Bono, Bob Geldof, Bill Gates, there doesn't seem to be a practical consensus either way. If you can find a consensus in the MOS to remove it, please come back and request the edit again. Sceptre (talk) 09:42, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

text: What does "consensus in the MOS" mean? The MOS is a general consensus on how to write articles. The Bill Gates article does not have a KBE mark in the lead, and the FAQ on its talk page explains why. You can sample the articles listed at :Category:Honorary Knights Commander of the Order of the British Empire to see that the mark is normally not included for non-commonwealth residents, consistent with the MOS recommendation. Geldof has been a resident of England. As for Bono, the mark should not be there either. 73.71.251.64 (talk) 17:47, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

text: , since there's not even a close affiliation with a commonwealth country, let alone citizenship.  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 17:56, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Just noticed that it's also in the infobox 73.71.251.64 (talk) 18:49, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: KBE

message: * Rudy Giuliani is looking for a defense attorney, sources say Erica Orden, Katelyn Polantz and Evan Perez, CNN Updated 9:32 PM ET, Wed October 23, 2019  X1\ (talk) 00:20, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  add Jon Sale update? 

message: * Rudy Giuliani butt-dials NBC reporter, heard discussing need for cash and trashing Bidens; “The problem is we need some money,” Giuliani says to an unidentified man during an accidental call to NBC News writer.
X1\ (talk) 20:11, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds bad -- but it's hard to nail down what the conversations mean. I'd omit it unless something comes of it later. O3000 (talk) 20:14, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giuliani called an unidentified man and butt-dialed a reporter (to voicemail) on Oct. 16th 11:07 p.m. for three minutes: can be heard discussing overseas dealings, add anywhere? 

message: *  CNN Nov 3, 2019
* https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/25/us/politics/giuliani-hunter-biden-romania.html
* Rudy Giuliani’s high-dollar foreign clients could present legal problems: Experts Oct 30, 2019
* Giuliani says firm defending corrupt Romanian-American is paying him; Trump’s attorney said he wrote to the Romanian president under a retainer paid by Freeh Group, who represent Gabriel Popoviciu (29 Aug 2018)
X1\ (talk) 22:10, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  add more Romania? 

message: * https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/us/politics/ukraine-giuliani-charles-gucciardo.html
* https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-impeachment-giuliani-idUSKBN1XH29L
See Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman.  
Gucciardo paid Giuliani on behalf of Fraud Guarantee; $250,000 in September, and October 2018.
... Fraud Guarantee, which does not appear to have any customers. 
X1\ (talk) 20:50, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  add Republican donor, Trump supporter Long Island attorney Charles Gucciardo investing $500,000 in Fraud Guarantee ? 

message: I was astonished just now to find this in the article lead:
In July 2019, Giuliani was present during President Trump's telephone call to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky (Trump–Ukraine scandal) which included a discussion of former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter's Ukrainian activities. That call was later the subject of a whistleblower complaint which formed the basis for the impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump. 
I have never seen that allegation before - that he was present during the phone call. As far as I could tell, that information is not in the article text and is not supported by any reference in the lead. Can anyone show me that this actually happened, so that we should put it back? -- MelanieN (talk) 22:40, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also never seen it alleged that he was on the July 25 phone call. I highly doubt that he was. It should've only been government people on that call. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:08, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giuliani present during phone call?  

message: Parnas (an account in Lev Parnas' wife's name) received $1 million from a Russian account in September, according to a court filing; during the same month that Parnas and his partner Igor Fruman received the first request for documents from the Congressional committees investigating the Trump administration's actions in Ukraine.  In the past three years, Parnas has received more than $1.5 million from Ukrainian and Russian sources.  
* https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-11/giuliani-associate-parnas-got-1-million-from-russia-u-s-says
* https://www.wsj.com/articles/prosecutors-say-giuliani-associate-parnas-hid-income-should-be-detained-11576121113
X1\ (talk) 00:49, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rudy Giuliani associate Lev Parnas  received $1 million from a Russian account in September, add? 

message: * 
X1\ (talk) 00:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  include ''The rise and fall of Rudy Giuliani, explained'' ? 

message: Honorary knighthoods do not go in the infobox. Many Americans have them, and you'll note their infoboxes do not include the honorary letters, because they are Americans. The Title of Nobility Clause of the U.S. Constitution is clear that Americans are forbidden from holding these titles in a real way. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the UK also doesn't allow the suffix to be used by those outside the UK, even though they allow the honor. O3000 (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honorary knighthood 

message: Per
* Graham: Rudy Should Scrub Evidence for Russian Propaganda Dec. 29, 2019
Giuliani met with , a member of the parliament known for his close ties to controversial Ukrainian oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky.
X1\ (talk) 00:08, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  add Oleksandr Dubinsky ? 

message: There should be a section for that on this article instead of including it in the first section. This article is very biased and needs reform.2600:1700:EDC0:3E80:D889:A796:6853:3BE (talk) 20:48, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved two very detailed paragraphs, which I believe are to what you referred, from the lead section to an associated section within the article. —ADavidB 03:43, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate section for Ukraine controversies 

message: Editor  has twice now (,) removed reliably-sourced sourced content from this article concerning Giuliani appointees to head NYC agencies who subsequently pled guilty to fraud and perjury.  The content at issue is:
Cathradgenations's summary says: The individuals named as "appointees as defendants" for the Giuliani administration were not high level officials of his administration nor key advisers; nothing in the indictments and charges touched on or alleged any wrongdoing by Giuliani himself, his family, or anyone in his inner circle; this is a Wikipedia entry about Giuliani not obscure minor officials in his administration; even if relevant, proportonally they might deserve a mere sentence or two. 
I restored the content noting that The "head [of] the New York City Housing Development Corporation" and the City's Housing Commissioner are not low level positions, and the content was sourced. Further, the subjects of these paragraphs only receive a few sentences of coverage, and their treatment in this article is both relevant to Giuliani (as Mayoral appointees to head major City agencies) and is not undue.  The editor again removed it, with the same summary, and without addressing my response.
  See WP:BRD. Please discuss the disputed content here.  If you simply revert again to your preferred version without discussing your changes here, we will take it up at WP:AN3. General Ization Talk   00:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section "Appointees as defendants" 

message: Shouldnt this page be protected in some way? StStein1 (talk) 07:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  protection 

message: Why do we have this in the lead: ? If this was some big political figure, then fine. But taking a single attack line from some random journalist doesn't seem like WP:NPOV. Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 01:55, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Support delete The first sentence in particular is completely substance-less. --Steverci (talk) 21:54, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delete Quote in Lead 

message: There is a claim at https://paulinepark.com/giuliani-transgender-rights-the-untold-story/ that, as mayor of NYC, Giuliani opposed the pro trans rights measure that later became Local Law 3 of 2002. However, this appears to be a primary source and I could not find corroboration. Can this be mentioned? Ramendik (talk) 02:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opposition to transgender rights as Mayor?