Talk:Baa, Baa, Black Sheep

message: Has anyone got any idea about the historical background to this nursery rhyme?
:Possibly, but not our article. It points to a website at www.famousquotes.me.uk which has a lot of invented/traditional but false "histories" for nursery rhymes. For example its ring a ring a roses gives a plague history on no evidence. Given that nursery rhymes change very fast until written down many seem unlikely. The plague history was authoritatively demolised by Iona Opie in "the Singing Game". I don't know what she says about Baa Baa Black Sheep, but there will be something. Francis Davey 10:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins

message: What is the source of this rhyme? Rich Farmbrough 16:05, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Anyone know

message: How ironic that in an article discussing racial sensitivity the outdated term "coloured" should be used twice. I know many black people who would be deeply offended to be referred to as 'coloured' (they wouldn't care less about Baa Baa Black Sheep, however).
: the trouble is that what is "sensitive" varies from place to place. Here (in the UK) "black" seems to be favoured, and "colour" not approved of, but I know that is not true in other places.
:: Who says that "coloured" people are necessarily black? Maybe they're some other non-white ethnic group. Just a thought. Pygmypony (talk) 15:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Coloured parents? Coloured children?!

message: The various claims about banning the rhyme in different places in different times are complete bollocks, an urban myth that's been doing the rounds in the press - even dear old Auntie - since 1986. Ou tis 00:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This alleged censorship is rubbish. 

message: Baa baa ethnic minority sheep, have you any wool derived products?
Yes sir, yes miss, three bags full.
One for the democratically elected leader, one for the dame.
One for the vertically challanged child that resident down the lane. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.11.188.27 (talk) 12:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  baa baa ethnic minority sheep 

message: its swedish also, by a guy named augustBold text  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.131.35.195 (talk) 08:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I hav 

message: I have heard the rhyme as "the little boy who cries down (or in) the lane." Perhaps put it in brackets or as a different version? Graymornings 03:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Cries" vs. "Lives" 

message: This nursery rhyme is consistently miswritten  (and recited) by referring to a Dame.  In the middle ages women were regarded by and large as chattels of men and would in any event never be referred to as "dame" which is the shortened word for the French Madame (meaning 'my lady') and to which would be apportioned the name of the husband.  However large parts of England were occupied by Vikings and their descendants and were known as Danes (for Danish).  Indeed, were a line drawn from the Wash to Chester everything North of that line was under DaneLaw.  Places like Leicester and York being under Dane Law are well documented and existed before the Norman (ie French language conquest)and after the conquest the cultural elements remained deeply entrenched in the countryside right up to the times of the great wool trade where traders not only provided wool for domestic consumption but for export too.  So "one for the Master" (home), "one for the Dane" (established export) and "one for the little boy down the lane" (anyone else)Charlesenglish 00:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice theory, but is there, in fact, any evidence for it? I bet no. Nursery rhymes don't generally represent ancient traditions so its very unlikely that something dating back to the Danelaw would turn up. If you can prove it, produce the references (and I don't mean another website or recent book with the same theory). Francis Davey 08:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Always sung as Dane, when I was a kid in the 1970s, rather than Dame. Never even heard of Dame being used instead of Dane, in that nursery rhyme. Oh well, I suppose that is Wikipedia for you. You learn something new everyday!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.108.117 (talk) 21:47, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dame should read DANE. 

message: This article has several versions that are not supported by citations. I plan to remove them to stop the article getting out of hand as editors have a habit of adding endless and often pointless versions once it begins. If you have citations please supply them. If you have reasoned objections to this move please give them in this section.--Sabrebd (talk) 07:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced versions

message: Am I right to think that in Britain there is a version, Baa Baa White Sheep, where the sheep has no wool for anyone:
Baa, Baa, white sheep, have you any wool?
No sir, No sir, No bags full,
None for the master, none for the dame,
and none for the little boy who lives down the lane.
I'm sure I remember being taught this in nursery. Could anyone back me up?
Lwebdan (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've not heard that before. I was born in the UK and lived in various parts of England and Scotland and can't recall hearing it. However, I found this from Australia, it's on the last page. I also came across this from the US. It has black, white and grey. The interesting thing there is that it's spelt "grey" and not the usual US spelling of "gray". Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 01:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The odds are that the white sheep version is one of the many local variations. They come and they go, often in attempts to lengthen the rhyme. Some make it into print, but none has so far become an accpeted part of the rhyme.--SabreBD (talk) 07:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baa, Baa, White Sheep? 

message: As a child in the 1960's I can remember singing a three or four verse version of this from a school textbook.
Each verse dealt with a different colour sheep, It also came with a commentary explaining the song.
I can't remember exactly, but the first verse was on the lines of
Baa Baa Black Sheep have you any wool?
Yes sir, no sir none for you
One for the Master, One for the Dane
None for the working man who lives down the lane
second verse - something like
Baa Baa White sheep have you any wool?
Yes sir, No sir, None for you
One for the Bishop, The rest for the King
None for the little man who kisses his ring
third verse was 
Baa Baa Brown Sheep
Yes Sir, Yes Sir, all for you
fourth verse
spotty sheep? Pied sheep?  I'm sure it dealt with mixed colour (Jacobs-type) animals
As explained in the old book (and I can't remember the name or author) the whole song is a social commentary on the relative merits of coloured and white wool. In medieval times white wool was at a premium as it could be dyed, and as a result white sheep became predominant. Their fleeces were all taken for sale: either by the landowner, or the King or the Bishop as taxes. The black wool would be taken for monastic garments The peasant who raised the sheep was left with the small amount of brown or mixed colour wool that wasn't required by the overlords
I also have half a memory that the later verses also dealt with the wool colours being handed out to the various monastic houses: i.e. black to the Dominicans, brown the Franciscans (who were major landowners)
As I said before, I've only given an approximation from a near fifty year old memory, so please don't take what I've written as exact.
Olddemdike (talk) 01:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Its all very interesting, but without some reliable sources, there is not a lot we can add to the article. Most of these neat explanations are just speculation, we can note them as such if we have valid sources that outline them.--SabreBD (talk) 08:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Multiple verses 

message: Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that :File:The Black sheep illustrated by William Wallace Denslow.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 29, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-12-29. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng  {chat} 02:50, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:The Black sheep illustrated by William Wallace Denslow.jpg]] to appear as POTD soon 

message: The way I know it, and as reported by Scholastic's The Real Mother Goose, the final stanza ends:
:But none for the little boy
:Who cries in the lane.
Should this be mentioned as an alternative?  It certainly is a significant difference.
--Jason Fruit (talk) 16:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to admit I have never heard that version, but significant alternatives are fine as long as they are properly sourced.--SabreBD (talk) 16:56, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  None for the little boy? 

message: This article's interpretation that there was some sort of legitimate controversy surrounding actual amendments of the lyrics in accordance with PC values is not supported by the Loony Left which states that it was all the fabrication of British tabloids and subsequently reprinted over the years. 
If Wikipedia is supposed to be taken seriously surely there should be parity between articles of the same subject? Considering the amount of detail on this topic, this article's version is as best biased and at worse factually incorrect. 23:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That is odd, because I thought that is what this article does say.--SabreBD (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Political correctness crap

message: In swedish, the verse is sung as "bä bä vita lamm" which translates directly to "ba ba WHITE lamb".
The english verse was probably first though.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.199.120.209 (talk) 10:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia about the hidden meaning behind it 

message: Does this nursery rhyme have anything to do with black sheep's usage as a bad or sticking out person?  (As in He is the black sheep of the family; he never goes to church.) 68.61.163.252 (talk) 23:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black sheep idiom 

message: This song received its own tune, and is no longer commonly sung in the tune Ah vous dirai-je, Maman. Should we add this information to this article? Yusheng02 (talk) 09:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  This song received its own tune 

message: Well, I only learnt that song in a foreign school, but I'm quite convinced that our tone was a different one.The article now has
: g1 g1 d2 d2 e2 e2 e2 e2 d2
: baa baa black sheep, have you any wool
We sang, possibly transposed to also start in g1,
: g1 g1 d2 d2 e2 d2 f#2 e2 d2
: baa baa black sheep, have you any wool
It is just possible that "have you any wool" was repeated. Then the text has
: d2 d2 d2 c2 c2 b1 b1 b1 a1 1/4-break d2 d2 d2 c2 c2 c2 c2 b1 b1 b1 a1
: One for the master, one for the dame, one for the little boy who lived down the lane
We sang
: d2 d2 d2 c2 c2 b1-a1 d2 b1 a1 1/8-break d2 d2 d2 d2 c2 d2 e2 c2 b1 a1 a1 g1
: One for my master, one for my dame, and one for the little boy who lived down the lane.--2001:A61:260D:6E01:91A1:633F:1952:4EBA (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 23:00, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Tune