Talk:Vladimir Kramnik

message: :However, the FIDE rating list is not an official determinant of status but rather a provisional or estimated ranking.
I don't think I understand this. The FIDE list is about as official as it gets, isn't it? If it isn't an indicator of who is world number two, then who is? --Camembert
The FIDE list is as official as those ESPN ratings of football teams. They may put Kramnik at number 2 but the fact is, the man is the world champion and is #1 until somebody beats him in a 35 game series.
:Well, first of all, I think FIDE, which is after all the governing body for chess, is rather more oficial than ESPN. Granted, FIDE has its faults, but the Elo system is not one of them. Secondly, who says he has to be beaten in a 35 game series to not be world no. 1 any more? Kramnik - Kasparov was only a 16 game match, wasn't it, one of, if not the, shortest world championship matches ever. Thirdly, as it is the article says: "In the FIDE rating list for October 2002, Kramnik was ranked number two in the world, behind Kasparov." Why does this need qualification? OK, maybe there are other ways of ranking skill at playing chess, but this statement makes it clear that we're just dealing with the FIDE rating list. Why, after all, is a world championship match a better indication of who is world number one than an Elo list? Consequently, I've changed your statement somewhat. I hope it's OK for you. 
:By the way, related to this: does anybody know if Kramnik has finished above Kasparov in a tournament since his match win (I've been taking a bit of a break from chess for a while, so I'm not up to date on these things). --Camembert
::I don't think it makes much sense to say that FIDE rankings need qualification. They're mathematically generated based on tournament performance. Isn't there an article on the Elo rating system somewhere? I think someone here is confused about what is meant by FIDE rankings. Kramnik is recognized as the world chess champion but he is not the highest rated player in the world. --Malathion 06:14, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's particularly informative to start out the article with a list of Kramnik's match losses. Clearly there are some chess fans out there who hate Kramnik because of his style and propensity for quick draws, but this is hardly suitable. It should at least be balanced by a listing of his many tournament successes. BTW, Kramnik won Linares 2004, in which I believe Kasparov participated.24.199.100.27 05:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: This is untrue.  The rating list is used for many tournament organizers to determine who is or is not invited, as well as one of the requirements for earning titles such as International Master and Grand Master.  FIDE's recent rules about who would be invited to play for the world championship qualifiers also includes clauses about anyone rated above a certain bar.  Unlike other sports, FIDE rating truly mean something to the players and organizers. Qed (talk) 08:37, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: FIDE rating

message: I started trying to iron out a few POV-looking kinks and add more information to the "controversy" section, but it was making the article so unbalanced structure-wise that I ended up basically retooling the whole article so that it has a bit more of a chronological narrative flow. It's still a *bit* of a mess, but I think it hangs together better and hopefully it's tidy enough to get rid of the cleanup tag... thoughts/comments? 81.104.164.2 11:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the amount of space dedicated to controversy is out of proportion. Kramnik is not a cult leader, paranormal fraud, or a leader of a Neo Nazi group. Anyway thanks for your efforts. Andries 11:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, nobody is suggesting anything like that... I just think it's important for an encyclopedia article about someone who claims to be a World Champion to explain why half the chess world doesn't see them as World Champion. The section before I got here was called "Controversy", so that was the only reason I kept that in; I tried to keep the actual text as NPOV as possible on such a contentious issue, perhaps you'd prefer to change it to "Confusion" or "Competing claims to title" or something similar? 81.104.164.2 11:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rejig 

message: Please add the Russian accents to Kramnik's names.Chvsanchez 04:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Conscious 06:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accentuation 

message: Kramnik is the only person other than J.R.Capablanca (in 1921) to beat a World Champion in a match while not losing a single same.
That's only two players in over 100 years of world championship matches.
  
Kramnik has dominated the supertournament Dortmund and was rarely below 2nd-3rd (i.e. just behind Kasparov or Anand) in any tournament for a decade.
Kramnik went nearly 2 years without losing a single game, while playing in all the supertournaments and against the top players in the world (Karpov, Kasparov, Anand, etc.)
He was only the second person to break 2800 elo barrier (Kasparov was the first) and was the only other 2800+ player for years.
Whether or not people like his style of play, the man is an undefeated World Champion who has played some of the best chess in the world for many years.  His chess activity decreased because it became physically painful for him to sit for hours at a time, several days in a row, for tournament play. I know arthritis might sound like its 'no big deal' but Kramnik has stated that his back begans feel like its "on fire" after a few hours of sitting and you'll find many games where Kramnik has a large advantage but then blunders in the late-middlegame or endgame (something that never used to happen).  The game is then lost and Kramnik's rating goes down.  Its clear that the pain was too distracting in the later stages of the game and obviously world class chess takes full concentration the entire game.  His colleague (and world #4) Svidler said that Kramnik was still the best technical chess player in the world and if it weren't for Kramnik's physical problems he would be sitting atop the chess world.
Many players (including Kasparov) have acknowledged that Kramnik is the best player of his generation, yet this article seems mostly about controversy which the man doesn't initiate and his failings rather than his incredible talent, his good nature, and his many successes.  It is fairly rare that a kind, soft-spoken gentleman (whom no one attacks on a personal level or accuses of cheating, etc.) represents the highest level of play.  Perhaps if he had the personality of a Korchnoi, Fischer, or Kasparov then people would pay more attention.  With Kramnik, its just about chess.  
It should be remarked that Kramnik just finished the 2006 Chess Olympiad in Turin, where he had the best score of any player on first board with a 2847 (!) performance rating. Please spend a little more time discussing his abilites and less time discussing chess politics.  Politics is interesting but I feel it belongs under "FIDE" or "Chess World Championship matches" and not Kramnik's personal bio.  Certainly not to the lop-sided degree to which it is represented now.
By the way, tournament results, world championship matches, and FIDE ratings are not simply my POV, so lets not claim its impossible to discuss his many successes with a NPOV.
:Agreed. I have included Olympiad info and deleted the politics stuff. I was reluctant to delete it because I wanted to be fair to the opposing viewpoint. So I created a controversy section to at least keep it contained. Unfortunately, that ballooned to a ridiculous length, and someone even created a "Further controversy" section to elaborate further. I have simply deleted all that garbage, since it is simply unfair to have it strewn about here without including any of that information on Topalov's page as well. Danny Pi 21:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree with the sentiments behind the edits, I think it's now gone too far the other way. Kramnik's title has been controversial because he has never been rated world #1 while champion, and around 2001 he was completely overshadowed by Kasparov scoring a string of tournament victories; and then in 2005 overshadowed by Topalov being both FIDE champion and #1 in rating, so even Kasparov regarded Topalov as the true champion. So I think a succinct paragraph on the controversy is required. Rocksong 02:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well put, but who wrote this? Sign please.Danny Pi 21:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kramnik's playing strength 

message: The article seems to suggest that Kramnik's Berlin Defense was the major reason he won the match, and as Kramnik "although pressed hard..repeated managed to avoid defeat."  It seems strange to call winning two games simply avoiding defeat. Surely winning a game is more than simply not-losing? 
The Berlin defense was solid and Kramnik managed to hold the draw in all his games.  However, Kramnik freely admits that Kasparov had the better positions in the Berlin games.  The strategy was to hold "inferior positions that I knew I could hold".
This style of defense is extremely difficult and rather courageous when one is playing against one of the best (if not THE best) attacking players of all time.  Several commenters compared it to Ali's "rope-a-dope" against George Foreman in 1974.  Kramnik himself said this was a perfect analogy in a post-match interview.
   
Kramnik's score as White was (+2 -0 =5) and he was rarely much worse.  As Black, he was (+0 -0 =8) and was rarely better.
Certainly the Berlin played a key role in 'not losing' the match, but Kramnik's excellent opening preperation (particularly of the White side of Grunfeld and the Nimzo-Indian) was the key reason he actually won the match (i.e. a challenger cannot just tie a match and share the title, they must win more games and Kramnik only won as white).
I think the article makes it sound like Kramnik barely stayed alive and simply "managed to avoid defeat".  Certainly he did more than just not lose.  In particular, the Berlin was successful but it was pure defense. It could not be the sole reason Kramnik won the match. 
Kramnik's better preparation throughout the match in several opening systems was the main reason Kasparov himself gave for losing the match.  He said it was the first time he had been "out-prepared" in his career.
**********
:Perhaps it should be noted that since the Kramnik-Kasparov match, the chess world refers to the   Berlin Defense lovingly as the Berlin Wall. Abenr (talk) 02:07, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kramnik-Kasparov 2000 

message: I disagree with that statement.  If their past games were relevant, then why is it that they've finally decided to go through with the reunification match when Kramnik finally agreed to do it under the auspices of FIDE?  Dionyseus 22:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Two issues. (A) Topalov rejected Kramnik's offer due to insufficient funds [Link Here]. The problem came from Topalov's $1 million demand, not Kramnik's refusal to play under FIDE auspices. In fact, Kramnik was eager to play under FIDE auspices [Link Here]. (B) Relevance of past match-ups. There is wiki precedent for mentioning match-up stats: Federer and Nadal's articles both mention their relative scores [Nadal][Federer]. Furthermore, this information informs the reader on past performance. When gauging how a match will go, one has very little relevant information *other than* past matchups anyhow. I assume that Dionyseus does not question the factuality or objectivity of this statement. I think it is very difficult to establish that the information is irrelevant. Danny Pi 23:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first proposal was rejected because both camps were unable to overcome substantial differences of opinion.   Their historical match-up score would make more sense in the paragraph in which the reunification match was agreed on, rather than on the paragraph in which their first reunification proposal failed because it makes it seem as if the text is implying that their historical score is the reason why the proposal failed, which is simply not the case. Dionyseus 23:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I saw your link before. I have shown two links now establishing that Kramnik did not object to playing under FIDE auspices. The only sticking point for the first match failure was money. If you can show evidence to the contrary, please do so. It would be hard, however, to find something more solid than Kramnik's press statement, "The Kramnik side has never rejected a world championship match against Mr Topalov under FIDE auspices." As for the (B) issue, I think it's just fine to move it to the later paragraph about reunification. Danny Pi 23:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I go one step further and say put them in a new paragraph. (Along with more recent results, which favour Topalov). Past results are to do with predictions, and were irrelevant to negotiations. BTW I think the earlier rejected negotiations should be deleted altogether, or only mentioned in passing (e.g. "After earlier unsuccessful negotiations...") because they're irrelevant now. Rocksong 23:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Rocksong. Dionyseus 23:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Partially agree. In their past four decisive games, Kramnik won 2 and Topalov won 2. This is the case whether you count rapid games or not. Does not favor Topalov, but am amenable to including this info. Rejected negotiations are relevant- and Fischer's article has a paragraph on negotiations prior to his match with Spassky. Wiki is an encyclopedia, not a news source. It should include history as well as news. Danny Pi 00:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, rejected negotiations can stay in. It's already quite short, so I'm not fussed. As for recent results (from chessgames.com, Kramnik's POV): 2004 Corus: =1; 2004 Linares: +1=1; 2005 Corus: -1; 2005 Sofia/MTel: =1-1; 2005 Dortmund: +1; so yeah, that's even. Rocksong 00:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: BTW I've just noticed the +19-9=33 (now +19-9=34) is from, or at least agrees with, chessgames.com. That includes rapid and even blindfold games. IMHO that's ridiculous (and/or lazy research). Someone needs to go through the list and include only classical time control games. Maybe I'll do that later if I find some time.Rocksong 00:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I've done a quick count and it looks like +14 -6 =? for Kramnik, which is actually a more impressive ratio (for Krammy). Hard to determine time controls for some of those games, though. There may be a few more in there. Since the tiebreaks will be rapid games, I'm not sure we should necessarily bother trying to figure out which were classical time controls, although perhaps the blindfold games really are misleading. Also, pending evidence to the contrary, I'm going to RV the paragraph about "substantial differences" to Topalov's monetary demands, unless I hear objections.Danny Pi 01:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Interesting idea. Chessgames.com did a similar thing to cut down on the heavy (and repetitive) traffic on the Kramnik and Topalov forums. I don't know if your proposal is quite consistent with Wiki protocol, however. I'm not saying it's not- I'm just not sure that it is, since the event hasn't happened yet. In any case, I think these things should still at least be *mentioned* (perhaps with link to FIDE World Chess Championship 2006 in place of details) on the players' respective pages.Danny Pi 00:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there's plenty of Wikipedia precedent for pages existing before events begin, e.g. FIFA Women's World Cup 2007. The only problem I see is, given FIDE's recent record, it's possible that the match won't happen. But I think it's pretty unlikely that the match will fall through, so I say do it now. I agree it is appropriate to mention these things then point to the match page for more details. Rocksong 01:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems fair. I do think this could lead to further disputes about how much to include on player pages and how much should be left to the link. But in theory we both agree that the highlights should be mentioned on player pages, details mentioned on "FIDE World Chess Championship 2006" page, so I say we could tentatively make the change. Let's just work slowly and stepwise so this is all done with consensus. I don't like seeing sudden massive unilateral edits, which clearly won't gain consensus popping up, which has been the case lately- not referring to you, Rocksong.Danny Pi 20:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "their past games clearly relevant in this context" 

message: Quote: Kramnik started well, taking a 3 - 1 lead after four games. However, in game five, Kramnik made what has been described as the worst blunder of his career, losing a knight in a position which was probably drawn. He quickly resigned. - My note: Kramnik has described this as a sacrifice.
:No, it was a blunder alright. Play through the game here: http://www.chessbase.com/images2/2002/bahrain/games/bahrain5.htm . The deliberate sacrifice was in game 6 http://www.chessbase.com/images2/2002/bahrain/games/bahrain6.htm . Rocksong 04:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Brains in Bahrain

message: As flagged a while ago, I've created the page FIDE World Chess Championship 2006, so match details can go there as they unfold. Rocksong 01:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page for Reunification match 

message: There are several matches listed in this section which are obviously NOT World Championship matches.  
They were qualifying matches similar to the candidates matches of old and clearly belong in a seperate section.
Perhaps the section should simply be titled "Match History".
  
Anyway, players like Geller and Larsen took part in many qualifying matches but no one thinks either of them has ever been in a World Championship match.  Let's not start putting qualifying matches on the same scale as the Championship matches.
As far as I'm concerned, and I think most people would agree, Kramnik has only played three Championship matches: in 2000, 2004, and 2006.  In fact, his three-time Championship record puts him in very exclusive company.  Please don't include qualifying blitz matches in the same category as title matches.
:I've renamed the section to "World championship matches and qualifiers", which I think is accurate. Rocksong 07:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  World championship matches 

message: I think it might be worth mentioning that Kramnik was often referred to as the 'King of Dortmund' thanks to his tremendous results in the annual super-tournament.  From 1995-2001 he took the title six times in seven years (and won it again in 2006).
He has been quoted (several times) as saying this tournament was special to him and he often gave it more attention and effort than his other tournaments (i.e. he tries just a little bit harder to get first place in Dortmund).
:He was first still again in 2011. Abenr (talk) 02:16, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  King of Dortmund 

message: I don't know how to talk about reaction to Kramnik's recent defeat to a computer without using weasel words or engaging in original research.  There was some of both in this article, which I have just removed.  A lot of chess players feel humans still have an edge over computers, especially in correspondence games.  I personally feel the writing is on the wall, and that computers can now play chess better than humans.  But, as a Wikipedia editor, I try to not let my opinion affect the articles I edit. Samboy 10:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Computer world championships 

message: Why is there nothing written about the World Championship match between Kramnik and Shirov in 1998? Kramnik lost the match but still he was allowed to play against Kasparov...is should at least be mentioned somewhere in his biograpy, it's very significant for his chess career. By User:193.213.209.233 at 14:14, 6 June 2007
:Good point, it should be included. Peter Ballard 01:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shirov 1998 match 

message: Poemisaglock 15:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When two numbers are given, it's the cumulative totals, with 1 point for a win, 0 for a loss, and 0.5 for a draw. So to say that he lost 2-4 is not incorrect. 0-2-4 is ambiuguous because it doesn't say which order the results are in, so +0-2=4 would be preferred. So we could either say +0-2=4, or 2-4, and it's really just a matter of taste.  Peter Ballard 02:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ERROR! 

message: I added the single word 'human' to the introduction as Kramnik was easily beaten by the latest silicone beast. Kasparov was the last human world chess champion. Since then computers are the best. This is not disputed.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 11:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: <sarcasm>In other news, Usain Bolt has been asked to return all his 100m and 200m sprint awards, as it turns out  that most motorcycles can easily best him.  The notation "savantism" has also been removed from the dictionary as it turns out that computers can multiply much larger numbers, remember far more digits of pi, and recall and text from any book faster and more reliably and to a much more impressive degree than these merely slightly exceptional homo sapiens.</sarcasm>  The notation "World Champion" has always been understood to mean amongst people. Qed (talk) 08:49, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Who cares about machines, they are not eligible for the world title. Check any sensible reference. Kramnik is called "World Chess Champion", not "Human World Chess Champion". Peter Ballard 12:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Chess players care who is the best player in the world and this is not Kramnik but Deep Fritz. As has been demonstrated.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 10:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check any reference. The world champion is Kramnik. For you (or me) to argue otherwise is WP:Original Research. Peter Ballard 11:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  We both know that Kramnik was beaten by Deep Fritz. The article says so. So how is it OR to repeat what is already in the article?  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 10:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kramnik wasn't beaten by Deep Fritz in a World Championship match.  Do you really not understand WP:V and WP:RS, or are you being intentionally obtuse? Quale 15:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Who's obtuse? Deep Fritz is simply a better chess player than Kramnik as has been proven.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 09:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But who, apart from you, calls Deep Fritz the World champion? FIDE, The Week in Chess, Chessbase, The BBC, The International Herald Tribune and USA Today all call Kramnik the World Champion. Are you saying that they are not WP:Reliable Sources, or are you saying that Wikipedia should ignore WP:Reliable Sources? Peter Ballard 01:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Peter is correct.  Bubba73 (talk), 01:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only the human world champion 

message: Please, somebody, write in the upper succession box, that the "Classical" title was united under FIDE, so Kramnik does not hold 2 titles anymore, but 1 united.
I don't know how to do it technically. :(  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zabaznov (talk • contribs) 16:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession of titles 

message: I've heard 6'6", can anyone confirm?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.74.130 (talk) 02:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  How tall? 

message: The paragraph below is misleading.
In 2007, Kramnik lost the title to Viswanathan Anand, who won the World Chess Championship tournament ahead of Kramnik. He challenged Anand at the World Chess Championship 2008 to regain his title, but lost.
As Kramnik and Anand never played a match for the title in 2007, it is simply wrong to say "he lost the title to Viswanathan Anand."
..............
Equally misleading is:
2008 match
Kramnik was granted a rematch to challenge Anand for the world title the in 2008 in Bonn. 
As Kramnik never played a match with Anand for the title, he could not have been granted a "rematch."
Abenr (talk) 02:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading 

message: Mention should be made in the body of the article of Kramnik's 82-game undefeated streak, a record surpassed only by Mikhail Tal.  Tal had streaks of 93 and of 86.
Here is Kramnik's streak:
1999 Euro. Club Cup (Belgrade)   +0  =2 -1 (first rd.)        2 games
1999 Wijk aan Zee +3 =10 -0                                           13 games
1999 Linares  +2 =12 -0                                                   14 games
1999 Dos Hermanes     +2  =7 -0                                       9 games
1999 Dortmund                    +2  =5 -0                                7 games
1999 Las Vegas                   +2  =6 -0                                8 games
1999 Euro Club Qualifier (Belgium)+1  =2 -0                     3 games
1999 Euro Club Cup (Bogojno)     +1  =2 =0                     3 games
2000 Wijk aan Zee  (Corus)          +3 =10 -0                   13 games
2000 Linares                     +2  =8 -0                                  10 games
His eventual loss came at the hands of Michael Adams.
--68.228.237.18 (talk) 02:32, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undefeated Streak 

message: The article said that he won the two strongest tournament in history. (I changed it to read "two of the strongest".) How do we know that they were the two strongest? Due to rating inflation and other factors, you can't go by rating or category alone.  How about e.g. AVRO 1938 chess tournament and World Chess Championship 1948, which both had a higher concentration of the world's top players.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 15:16, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My response on my talk page: ": I don't think there is any objective way to compare tournaments widely-spaced in time.  For one thing, there is constant, but artificial, Elo rating inflation.  Secondly, FIDE didn't use ELO ratings before 1970." Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 20:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  two strongest tournaments? 

message: Vladimir Kramnik was born in the town of Tuapse, on the shores of the Black Sea. His father's birth name was Boris Sokolov, but he took his stepfather's surname when his mother (Vladimir's grandmother) remarried.
***********************************
The sentence above should be rewritten. As it stands, Kramnik's mother was his grandmother.--Abenr (talk) 15:30, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I gather the correct version (which appears elsewhere on the net) is that it was Vlad's father who took a stepfather's name (Kramnik) and so had Vlad's grandmother not re-married, then the family name which would have come down to Vladimir would have been Sokolov. Probably not even worth a mention here. I would prefer to give the details of his parents' professions instead, as these are widely reported and can be referenced to his autobiography (with Damsky). The family's artistic foundation is thought to have been influential on his style of chess, so it would seem more relevant. I will do this if no-one objects below. Brittle heaven (talk) 11:04, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm My Own Grandpa? 

message: Substituted at 10:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: I expect I'm missing something, but I can't find anywhere in the info template to update Kramnik's FIDE rating to the FIDE October 2016 rating list. Right now, the page is claiming that his current rating as of October is 2808 - that's actually his September FIDE rating. His current rating is 2817. If someone could update the rating and / or tell me how to go about it, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.7.32.246 (talk) 11:48, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Trying to update Kramnik's FIDE rating

message: "(this was only the second time in history that a World Champion had lost a match without winning a single game)"
I suppose it must read: 
"(this was only the second time in history that a World Champion had WON a match without LOSING a single game)"
(Nestorfull (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Kramnik was the challenger, not the champion. --SubSeven (talk) 23:59, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  ¿Lose, win?

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thread_title:  External links modified