Talk:Venta Silurum

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Venta occurs three times applied to tribal capitals - Winchester, Caerwent and Caistor in Norfolk (Venta Belgarum, Venta Silurum, Venta Icenorum) - where Venta indicates an area of local administration.
Venta Silurum - The Market Town of the Silures
The Roman name for Caerwent first appears in the Antonine Itinerary of the late-2nd century. Iter XIV of this document, "an alternate route from Isca [Silurum] to Calleva [Atrebatum]", lists a station named Venta Silurum, 9 miles from Isca (Caerleon, Gwent) and 14 miles from Abona (Sea Mills, Avon), this latter part of the itinerary likely represents a journey by ferry across the Bristol Channel to the seaport serving the thriving Romano-British spa-town at Aquae Sulis (Bath, Avon).
The town is also mentioned in the Ravenna Cosmology of the seventh century, this time as Ventaslurum (R&C#48), between the entries for Pontes (Staines, Surrey) and the unknown road-station Iupania. The name of the Roman town, Venta Silurum, means 'the market town of the Silures', and is partially carried through in the present name of the modern town Caer-went, which is Welsh for 'fortified place with a market'.
The name Venta Belgarum is an amalgam of the Celtic word venta meaning 'market or market town', and the determinative Belgarum meaning 'of the Belgae', denoting that Winchester was the chief town of this southern British tribe.
The local capital became Venta Icenorum, a large, bustling market town that is mentioned in Roman sources. The Latin name of Venta Icenorum is translated as market place of the Iceni. 
The Times would usually be the most satisfactory reference but, in this case, I think they've just picked up the generally accepted translation.--Cavrdg (talk) 05:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Useful sources which seem to authenticate early date and generality of use. But an explanation of the hybrid nature of the name might still also be useful? As would etymology for "the Celtic word venta meaning 'market or market town'", if any could be found. (Is this what the previous version was aiming at with its French/Spanish?). Interesting that the Celtic name part was used  in Norfolk. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've found this, and quote it here in full:  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Goodness me, well that's hardly going to fit in any footnote. But the previous version with the "obviously impossible" etymology seems now more explicable, if not accurate, since the non-Celtic "venta" adopted by the British Celts seems to have had its origins in Gaul. The primary source seems to be Rivet, A and Smith, C., (1979) The Place-Names of Roman Britain, Batsford Ltd,  London, the quality of which seems to me very unlikely to be bettered. I'd suggest putting something in the article closer to the previous explanation but with a footnote about the non-Latin/ non-true Celtic Venta, and referring to the primary source. I'm still not entitely certain, though, whether any exact meaning can yet be attributed to Venta. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just for fun, I tried the online translator again and it gave venta = winnowing. ;-) Whilst the Romans might have been amused by this post-conquest cheek, somehow I can't see the locals accepting that as a name, nor keeping it after being left to their own devices. The same site gives market = venalicium; sale = venitio; sell = exigo; wind = ventus, flamen, but I was roundly slapped for using this thing, just the other day, for breaking down the hybrid word noviomagus into 'newness magical'. Anyway, I would like to see these linguists address the fact that the Romans didn't have a letter-equivalent of the 'oo' sound, for which the Welsh annotation is/was/became 'w' and that the Welsh use 'f' for the 'vuh' sound, making the mutation process that bit harder to explain away if Venta had been a latin word; Venta > ?Gfent? > Gwent - where does that G come from, all of a sudden? More sensible is (C) Uenta -R> Venta (as written) -W> Caer Uent, C'uent, Guent (as spoken), Gwent (as written). It would be interesting in its own right to know when they switched from ogham (or whatever) to latin characters. EatYerGreens (talk) 03:43, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The "gw" sound is a normal mutation in Welsh as it then existed (at least in south Wales), but what is not clear is whether Venta and Gwent derived from the same original word or whether (as is usually stated) the word Gwent derived from Venta.  Just to broaden this a little, what theories have people encountered for the origin of the word Silures ? - it does not appear to have continued in use after the Romans, unlike, say, Deceangli (>Tegeingl >Englefield), Demetae (>Dyfed), or Dumnonii (>Dyfnant >Devon).  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:23, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

text:  Where does Wentwood fit into this? And do we know what Bradney says on the subject? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wentwood is a straightforward medieval English translation of the Welsh name Coed Gwent.  Gwent was known in English as Wentland (or Wentset), Gwent Is Coed as Netherwent, and Gwent Uwch Coed as Overwent.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

text: So a simple medieval reversal of the Welsh `g+' mutation? This seems to discount the possibility that 'went' was still in use as a separate (non-Welsh Celtic?) descriptor. St. Brides Netherwent is still there, but had I never heard of anywhere Overwent - what's in the middle between these two places? Caerwent I'm guessing. We are still left with indeterminate meaning/origin for qwent/went/venta. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Venta = Market, Market Town or Capital?

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