Talk:Thutmose (prince)

message: I just undid the deletion of a paragraph by 24.87.136.31 due to "fringe pov." First off, these kinds of edits need to be discussed first. Second, while I agree that the paragraph could certainly be improved, I hardly consider Freud a "fringe" theorist. Moses and Monotheism was enormously influential, and it bears a direct relevance to this article's subject. Improve the paragraph, fine, but don't just be mindlessly destructive. Yonderboy (talk) 00:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fringe POV

message: There are 7 books of revisionist Egypto-Judaic history written by researcher Ralph Ellis that deal directly or indirectly with the subject of Crown Prince Thutmose as being the biblical Moses.  These are: Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs; Tempest & Exodus; Solomon, Pharaoh of Egypt; Eden in Egypt; Scota, Egyptian Queen of the Scots; Cleopatra to Christ; and, King Jesus, From Kam (Egypt) to Camelot.
In Ellis' theory, there are two Exoduses that can be accounted for in the histories of the Jewish historian, Josephus, and the Egyptian historian, Manetho.  The first exodus is the Hyksos expulsion during the reign of the Northern pharaoh, the Hyksos Shepherd King Yacoboaam, i.e. the biblical Jacob.  The second exodus would be the Amarna exile of Akhenaten, the so called "small" exodus of what Josephus calls "the cripples and lepers", a euphemism used by the Theban priests of the old religion to describe the worshipers of Akhenaten's new religion of the Aten.  Therefore, the biblical Exodus is an interwoven, consolidation of two events more than two hundred years apart.  In addition, Ellis employs etymological methods to show, over time, how the original Egyptian names, titles and appellations change and get substituted for each other in different cultures and languages.  
Ellis' theory is that Thutmoses did not die young.  He uses as evidence the fact that there is no tomb for this heir apparent (yet, there's a tomb for his cat) as well as an ivory whip handle found in the tomb of Tutankhamen ascribed to the Crown Prince Thutmose as commander of the king's chariot forces.  Akhenaten's selection as Pharaoh over his older brother, Thutmose, was a result of Akhenaten's marriage to Nefertiti, who's own similar bloodline reinforced the brothers' own recently merged bloodlines of the traditional Theban pharaoh and the Hyksos vizier (the biblical Joseph, son of the Hyksos King Jacob, having been the first such vizier upon the Israelites return to Egypt after the first exodus) which, since the Hyksos expulsion, had been purposely kept apart. 
It was the merging of these two bloodlines that brought about the change in religion. The descendants of the first Hyksos Shepherd king, Abraham, who had split with his father, the Theban Pharaoh Nachor/Nehesy, setup the Northern kingdom.  Abraham was of a generation born under the constellation Aires (sign of the ram) and the Hyksos emphasized sun worship which was different from previous generations born under the sign of Taurus (sign of the bull), which emphasized moon worship.  The Thebans carried on the tradition of the older generation born under the sign of Taurus and continued to venerate the bull over the sheep (Jesus would be born during the transition of Aires into the age of Pisces).  The biblical Exodus refers to this schism when the Israelites lose faith and attempt a religious restoration of traditional Theban bull worship in the story of the golden calf.  Thus, the ancient Egyptian religion and their "mystery" schools formed what is essentially an astrological/astronomical based religion which retains some of it's expression in the bible.
As pharaoh, Ahkenaten, tried to consolidate and subordinate the two older, competing, Northern Hyksos and Southern Theban religions under the more abstract, monotheistic worship of the Aten. The various religious dualisms, e.g. sun/moon, male/female, etc., became manifestations of the Aten which was a force along the lines of a holy spirit.  In an apparent attempt to underscore this unification of opposites, Ahkenaten may have used extemes of expression in art and culture (including gender ambiguity of himself) but also in politics to the extent of establishing a co-regency with his wife, Nefertiti.  However, the Theban priests & clergy rejected this assault on their religious privileges and domain while the masses of Egyptians, who were confused, rejected the change in their traditions and beliefs so that Ahkenaten's attempt at unity went completely awry.
Tuthmoses, who had been the High Priest of Heliopolis, becomes Moses the "spiritual" leader of the Old Testament, i.e. a primoridal Merlin (Tuth = Thoth, god of magic & language) with a speech impediment that requires Aaron to be "his" spokesman.  When he and Akhenaten are finally expulsed from Egypt, they embark on a re-conquest of their historical kinfolk, the Hyksos/Hebrew tribes of Canaan.  But Ahkenaten/Aaron retains his traditional pharaonic role as high priest and military commander.  But since the pharaoh is also a god on earth, the biblical accounts of Moses in dialogue with God are essentially Tuthmoses talking to his brother, Akhenaten/Aaron. This dual identity allows the bible to place Akhenaten/Aaron in both a superior and a subordinate position to his brother in order to further obfuscate the true historical origins of the Exodus. Pvsalsedo (talk) 08:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Crown Prince Thutmose as Moses