Talk:Muckraker

message: Acorn Investigation, New Jersey Teachers Union and more
:Youave to be kidding. Calicocat (talk) 03:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Include James O'Keefe 

message: Should Jonathan Safran Foer be included in the contemporary muckraker list? He recently wrote a book (Eating Animals) in which he extensively criticizes the bio-industry in the US. In the sense that he's seeking to expose the poor conditions for animals in the industry and the risks involved for consumers, one could argue he's trying to expose the way this big business is really working. There may be no fraud, but there is certainly a very big problem, and he's arguing against it. This could be considered an attack on  a big institution (the bio-industry). Would this pass for muckracking?
Jhmommers (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Include Safran Foer? 

message: Could Noam Chomsky be considered a muckracker? - sandiego4
Michael Moore didn't make it onto the combined list. Is this deliberate?  --KF 17:25 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
As the article states Muckrakers "serve the public interest" but unlike the Man with the Muckrake, from John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, the text quotes President Roosevelt warning muckrakers to pursue their claims, "...with merciless severity makes such attack, provided always that he in his turn remembers that the attack is of use only if it is absolutely truthful." 
Hopefully this clears up any lingering confusion as to the "deliberate" failure to draw any parallels between Michael Moore's work and that of a Muckraker. 
:(from another user)....  hmmm, god forbid somebody puts out a "biased" documentary. and please, enough with the "mask his true agenda" stuff, the dude might be misguided but hes not out to kill you.
::Wow - that long and unsigned diatribe really was SO helpful in explaining why MM is not a muckracker...NOT!  Plently of other Muckrackers accepted praise and financial reward from those who agreed with their desire to expose that which they felt was unjust. Upton Sinclair's profits from The Jungle essentially financed his future works.  I would welcome a more reasonable wikipedian to wigh in on this issue and tell us why Michael Moore is or isn't a muckracker.  Just leave your POV at the door thank you.Lisapollison 19:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MM belongs on the list for the very reason that he is the quintessential 21st century muckraker (truth-challenged and all). And for that same reason Drudge does not belong here. I'll try to dig up my old notes on this from J-school and add some sources. I actually studied it for a semester. Stop the revisionism. This is ridiculous.Konastephen (talk) 21:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Michael Moore'''

message: The introduction to the article should be clarified -- it needs to answer the question "What is Muckraker?" before going into any details. --Yurik 19:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: American "muckrakers" have held to a high standard of factual accuracy, in the U.K. the term is sometimes used to indicate sensationalism. However, the primary focus of this article is about those writers and reporters in the United States, such as Ida Tarbel and so on. Calicocat (talk) 04:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  better intro needed 

message: I noticed that the lists in the "Early muckrakers" and "Contemporary muckrakers" have no consistent style between the name and description — sometimes there is a hyphen, sometimes a double hyphen, sometimes a comma, and sometimes nothing at all.  It would probably be a good idea to convert them all to a common style, so they look neat and tidy.  Thoughts?  -Wayne Miller 22:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone ahead and applied a consistent style to the entries and re-ordered the list of early muckrakers.  Some of the early muckrakers look pretty late to me, but I'll leave that for someone else to fix.  --Wayne Miller 19:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistent list style 

message: that TR slammed this movement with his speech. He didn't really support these guys at all. He equated them with doing just as much harm than the guys they attacked as he whole speech shows. Taking out ditbits to prove a point it a little POV YankeeRoman(24.75.194.50 16:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  It Should Be Mentioned  

message: This article should probably be moved moved to Muckraking.  That would put the emphasis on the practice rather than on the individuals engaged in the practice.  It would also avoid the difficulty arising from the somewhat more pejorative interpretation given to the word "muckraker" in British usage.  Also, if one reads the entire Theodore Roosevelt speech one sees that he speaks of "the man with the muck rake" and even once of "raking the muck", but never does he use the word "muckraker".  A person who engages in muckraking is not necessarily an unremitting muckraker, but often engages in other kinds of writing.  
I also have some concerns about the listing of modern muckrakers, but that is a different question. Eclecticology 03:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that focus on the practice would be better knowledge management. Of course our unquenchable ideological divide will continue to act as a watershed in terms of who falls where. For some the term muckraker (like the term progressive) will never be more than a dismissive pejorative epithet. For others it's a badge of honor like the red star on the crowns of their revolution-retro Kurtz caps. The best that could be done here is to fully and fairly elucidate all angles of that reality in conjunction with this concept. I think that would be better done under the rubric of the practice. A≠non-A (talk) 22:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muckraker or Muckraking 

message: Don't think this phrase belongs in this article:
"Although the term muckraking might appear to have Stolen Babies from the villages of the east, and from spartan warriors who said "WHOOOOHAH" All the time,"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.124.108.7 (talk) 12:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a ton of vandalism throughout this talk page. If I had more WP-powers I would camp on this article and this talk page until it's reliably legit. For now, someone ought to flag the snot out of this thing. POV for starters. Vandalism. And the issue of whether or not it ought to be a sub-section of a better-written article on the practice of muckraking. Is there any way to ensure that lefty student activists with their freshly-washed brains and their brand new little grind-axes can't sign on after the bars around campus close? A≠non-A (talk) 22:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: As listed in the article itself, muckraker is defined as "an individual who seeks to expose or reveal the real or apparent corruption of public officials or business to the public". To this point, as Al Gore is not pointing out anything to do with "public officials", he doesn't really belong. Also, as he is only pointing out his opinion on "global warming" and "climate change" and not actual "corruption" his mission doesn't fit. He is only opening up the debate.
It would be more in line to include Bill O'Reilly or Glenn Beck as muckrakers, as they do dig into the "apparent corruption of public officials". I hope the fact that one is an independant and the other is a conservative and both lean right doesn't disqualify them. 70.108.87.200 (talk) 01:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Every single dumbass in the list of modern day muck rackers is uncited and retarded as hell.  Andrew Breitbart?  Are you fcking kidding me?  He's a shithead  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.181.220 (talk) 07:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

text: As for the issue of O'Reilly or Beck, the issue is that their truthfulness is debatable.  I think Beck gets it mostly right, most of the time, but that's not consensus.  Muckrakers from time past are easier to confirm with the spotlight of history being able to verify their claims.  In short, we haven't had enough time to determine whether O'Reilly and Beck belong in a category with the muckrakers, or with Michael Moore.  Actually, from that perspective, the modern muckraker section might ought to be removed for anyone who's been in the practice in the past ten years.  Izuko (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  See now I would have said that we have had time to know that the Fox folks belong in a new 21st century class of truth-focused journalists and not with Michael Moore, the three big networks, the NYT and the rest of the obsolete muckraker holdovers from the 20th century. So I suppose that having said that, I ought to brace myself for a stream of pseudo-eloquent expletives. A≠non-A (talk) 22:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Al Gore's place on list questionable. 

message: The Contemporary muckrakers list strikes me as OR By what criteria do we establish that someone is a muckraker? Do we have a reliable source that says that these people are muckrackers? If so, lets see it. Bonewah (talk) 14:22, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I definitely agree that reliable sources are needed for such a section.  As it is, I think a majority of the article requires a re-write to provide not only a suitable historical background but contemporary influences.  Perhaps this should be a future project/collaboration. María (habla conmigo) 16:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: While any article can be improved with more references and so on, the writers mentioned herein also have articles and those articles list their works, many of the works also have articles.  Links are given to the writers and their major works. These links to other articles about the writers and links to their works seem sufficient to me, but, of course, any article can be improved.  This article has suffered from systemic vandalism in the past and so, before making bold edits, please discuss them here first so that consensus can be achieved. Calicocat (talk) 03:24, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue with using other Wikipedia articles for references, of course, is original research by synthesis.  It also goes against WP:V, WP:RS, etc.  There are several books dedicated to "Modern Muckrakers" and contemporary investigative journalism, so finding reliable sources to flesh out such a section would certainly not be difficult.  The problem I see with such a section in its current format is the fact that it's a catch-all for anyone's idea of a muckraker.  This article truly needs to be stripped and rewritten, with an emphasis on the historical -- since that's where the essence of a muckraker truly lies.  Were I to completely rewrite the article from scratch (which I am seriously considering), I'll be sure to post updates to the talk page. :)  María (habla conmigo) 12:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest you do it in your sandbox and then work to build some consensus on it. I tend to agree regarding the catch-all nature of the contemporary muckrakers section and have had to remove several names that people just slam in without good cause. As I mentioned before, this article has been subjected to systemic vandalism and I have twice had to pull it back to something more valid with sources and examples. Let's hope we're not going to see that happen again. Calicocat (talk) 00:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to not work with sandboxes, although of course that's a valid suggestion.  I've had the article watched for several days now, and I must say that from the look of the talk page and article history, it doesn't seem to attract too much in the way vandalism or edit warring; it is stable and there are seemingly no disputes, other than the crufty lists of muckraking participants that seem to attract flies.  I've seen much worse.  Anyway, I won't be getting my hands dirty anytime soon, but as you can see from what I added earlier today, there are numerous works to pull from to create a far more encyclopedic article.  Such an important subject matter really deserves better coverage.  María (habla conmigo) 00:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, however you like to work is fine. I'm always glad to have good editor involved in any article; I'm sure your attention and contributions will be useful.Calicocat (talk) 05:21, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm in agreement that the contemporary list is OR but it has to do with the real influence of the original muckrakers beyond their era. In most of the contemparary individual instances, I think anybody would have a hard time verifying the assertion of a direct influence. Overall, I think the article needs tweakd. Muckraking refers both to an era of journalism -- one that occurred during the Progressive Period in the United States -- and the use of investigative journalism to improve conditions. I would propose a new section for all of those who have been influenced by the muckrakers in later years and continue to use investigative reporting techniques to affect change in that tradition. Tightening of the definition would lead to changes in the introduction. Of course, there will be some overlap with investigative journalists and alternative journalists.  I'm interested in a reaction about this proposal. Dobry 08:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contemporary muckrakers list [[wp:OR|OR]]? 

message: Would Wikileaks be considered a Muckraker?  99.155.153.68 (talk) 05:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think Wikileaks is an example of a Muckraker per se. The site has published some important documents but since they have not engaged in reporting or writing as such, I don't think they are appropriately characterized as such, but it's an interesting question. Calicocat (talk) 04:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

text: On November 25, 2010 CNN referred to Wikileaks as a Muckraker: "The threat of publication of thousands of sensitive diplomatic cables by a muckraker website has prompted a massive review of documents at U.S. embassies around the world, a U.S. official says." ChrisBrown (talk) 18:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Would [[Wikileaks]] be considered a ''[[Muckraker]]''? 

message: If one looks at all of the headings and comments here, then the general theme and the problem with this article becomes apparent. Editors are more concerned with contemporaries who have been influenced by the muckraker tradition. The problem is that muckraking is an era of journalism tied to the first 20 years of the 20th century. Its adherents used in-depth reporting and investigative techniques. They also, in the spirit of the time, believed that they could improve conditions of modern society. What is problematic? Their later influence on reporters and those who are not necessarily journalists was real. The problem is that the attention to those who came afterward detracts from the main topic of the article. A refocused article may still have to address their later influence. Is there a way to revise this in a collective spirit that would not be disruptive but would account for one of major reasons why so many people are interested in the original muckrakers. The article is about them. Isn't it? (I stated some of these point below under "OR"/"original research by synthesis," but focus is also a big picture problem with this particular article.) It goes back to the definition of muckraking and how strict or loose one uses the term. Right now it's so loose that it lumps journalists, non-journalists, alternative journalists, bloggers, an investigative reporters into one big grab bag that is essentially useless. Dobry 18:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of Focus 

message: This article was edited by leftists exclusively.  Conservative commentators who have skewered faulty distortions of "progressive" American values are also muckrakers because they attack the egalitarian and anti-capitalist assumptions of progressives in power.  They need not be journalists to be a muckraker, just well-published in periodicals and topical. Here's a brief list:
1. H. L. Mencken
2. Ayn Rand
3. W. F. Buckley
4. Robert Welch
5. Phyllis Schlafly
6. Pat Buchanan
7. Robert Novak
8. William Safire
9. Thomas Sowell
10. Rush Limbaugh
1
Those listed right here are largely an example of yellow journalism. To qualify as Yellow, rather than Muckracking, five general points which can be used to determine this:
   1. scare headlines in huge print, often of minor news
   2. lavish use of pictures, or imaginary drawings
   3. use of faked interviews, misleading headlines, pseudoscience, and a parade of false learning from so-called experts
   4. emphasis on full-color Sunday supplements, usually with comic strips
   5. dramatic sympathy with the "underdog" against the system.
Off the top of my head, most listed have been frequently guilty of one or more of these. Investigative journalism can indeed be done by those with diverse viewpoints, but for the most part due to our dominant economic system, I can understand why most would be left-leaning in some way. Because the forces in power, at least in the US, have always been to the right. AndrewRayGorman (talk) 23:50, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conservative Muckrakers COMPLETELY ignored in this article 

message: I would like to do a major edit on this article to completely strip away any modern as "muckraker" is a textbook journalist from the first decades of the 20th century. My proposal is that if someone feels strongly about a journalist from the present eera who has been influenced by the early muckrakers, then they find a reference that says the person was influenced by those journalists and then edit that journalist's page and put a link to the Muckrakers. Every discussion of a journalist after the 1930s ruins the focus of the article. My proposal is to tighten the definition to the era, professional journalists, and delete ALL references to journalists after 1930. Can I get some feedback first? --Dobry 17:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree that the article desperately needs an overhaul (a year ago I made similar comments in an above thread), I don't think it possible to completely strip away all contemporary mentions of muckrakers/muckraking.  A quick glance at WorldCat shows that there are several books that refer to mid and/or late 20th century authors as "muckrakers".  Perhaps a "Legacy" section would suit this article better than the largely unsourced "Contemporary muckrakers" list.  If you do plan on overhauling the article,keep in mind that reliable sources need to be utilized per WP:RS and WP:V.  If you need help in this department, let me know. María (habla conmigo) 18:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Yllosubmarine! I don't doubt that there are references to modern muckrakers in WorldCat. The problem is that there are two uses of the term. One use is the specific term used to define an era of journalism. The other use is a more general expression that covers those journalists or even non-journalists who investigate for real change and were inspired by the original muckrakers. Any textbook in journalism or mass communication (e.g., the classic Emery & Emery) refers to Muckrakers by the more specific meaning. I think Wikipedia loses some credibility by not being precise. Btw, I'm new to Wikipedia and I'm confused about whether I should use the sandbox or just make the change. What do you suggest?  -- DobryDamour (talk  —Preceding undated comment added 04:50, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sandbox edits are not required, although if you would like input from other editors before those changes go "live", you could certainly create a sandbox to write a mock-up of what you envision for the article.  I see several issues with your proposed structure.  Although I certainly agree with your overall point (this article sucks), the word "muckraker", which is the title of this article, it is such that it doesn't make a distinction between its historical definition and what it means for writers/journalists of the mid- to late-20th century.  A distinction can be made in various headings and subheadings within the article itself, but the latter definition cannot be entirely ignored.  This article isn't titled Muckrakers (early 19th century).  As this talk page shows, users and editors who stumble upon this page of course see muckraking's implications in today's media, and the sources show that the term has evolved and grown to incorporate authors other than those who made the term famous in the 1910s and 20s.  To erase this modern definition would be to ignore a large part of what muckraking has become, which would create an article just as imbalanced as if it were to only discuss Rachel Carson, Glenn Beck, and others.  Our goal here is to create a balanced and comprehensive article.  If you have any questions, feel free to ask.  Also, remember to sign your name with four tildes (~~~~), not three. :) María (habla conmigo) 12:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Yllosubmarine, you're making some very good points. As I see it, you are saying you would rather be descriptive rather than proscriptive. What requirements would you suggest in order for a journalist (/non-journalist?) to be included as a contemporary? That's the key question people (see above) are asking. (I used 4 tildes this time! Hope it works) -- Dobry 16:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It all comes down to what reliable, third-party sources say.  It's not enough for some reason person on a talk page (including me!) to say that so-and-so reporter/journalist is a modern-day muckraker, it has to be substantiated.  Quite a bit of research needs to be done with this topic, so the contemporary/legacy section(s) may only a small part of the whole picture, of course.  My main point, however, is that it cannot be ignored completely because sources re: contemporary examples do exist, from what I've seen with a quick, preliminary search. María (habla conmigo) 16:41, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: I think Brandeis schould definitely make the list, especially for his 1914 book "Other People's Money And How the Bankers Use It". 
Check here for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Brandeis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_People%27s_Money_And_How_the_Bankers_Use_It
If no-one is objecting, I will insert him into the article one day.
-- Otto von B (talk) 00:15, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  added him now Otto von B (talk) 01:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Include Louis D. Brandeis? 

message: Why is Jack Anderson not listed as a muckracker in this article? One of the people who is listed is noted as having won the Jack Anderson award for investigative journalism. Kind of is a hint there? I grew up reading Anderson's column in the newspaper. His mentor, Drew Pearson, is also not listed. These two guys were the attack dogs of the 50s-70s.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wjrust (talk • contribs) 14:34, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Same Person, will start to clean this mess slowly. First goes the school teacher. 
These are the people I deleted and the reason for it:
* Noam Chomsky- a philosopher and a linguistic researcher and even an activist, but not much of a muckracker. Not everyone with an opinion is a muckracker.
* Hunter S Thompson- Gonzo is not muckracking. 
* Adrian Wojnarowski - more a man with an opinion than an investigative journalist.
* Savannah Corralez- the school teacher.
Now- based on the people who are there: These are names that I'll add:
* Andrew Breitbart- Unraveled ACORN fraud and irregularities.
* Drew Pearson- The original modern Muckracker.
* Jack Anderson - An investigative journalist who continued pearson's column, and revealed american involvement in the plots to kill fidel castro.
obviously, under this wide net, a lot more people could be categorized as muckrackers, so more needs to be done on this list. but that's me for now.
Drorzm (talk) 20:23, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jack Anderson / Drew Pearson 

message: I am pretty sure that Woodrow Wilson in 1913, not Roosevelt, was the first president to routinely hold press conferences. See John Milton Cooper, Jr., Woodrow Wilson, (Knopf, 2009), 201-2.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.202.196 (talk) 19:05, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Presidential Press Conferences 

message: At this point, especially the modern list, most of it is unreferenced, subjective, and pretty partisan.  We've seen it come up a few times about this in the past with no action, and I'm not sure why a list that will never be complete is encyclopedic.  Should we just remove those lists? Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:50, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I would not support just removing the lists.  There are plenty of good lists in Wikipedia that can never be complete... the inability to make something 100% here is not grounds for exclusion and does not make it not "encyclopedic".  But I would tend to agree with you, in this way: simply being muckraker-like should not be enough for inclusion if a person actually IS a muckraker, and truly deserves to be mentioned in a list of muckrakers, there should be at least one good categorizing that person in that way.  Perhaps tagging the sections in question as needing sources would be the first step.  Marteau (talk) 02:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The two sections which I addressed have been tagged for three years without editorial action, save for my own and Capitalismojo's massive recent deletion. Have you a suggestion that might enable us to proceed more expeditiously? Your comment about not supporting the removals was part of the basis for my edits. Activist (talk) 20:13, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

text: I also do not support removing the lists. I noticed that there were many problems with them needing cleanup, but they just need editing.  I moved entries that were in the wrong sections or order within sections, added dates, removed a contemporary periodical from a list of individuals only, made format corrections, removed bad links, etc.  I'll try to get back and do some more cleanups this week. Activist (talk) 07:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

text: I restored the wholly deleted Contemporary list, moved deceased members up to "second half of the 20th Century" list, and added birth dates for some of those living and life spans for those deceased whom I moved. Every one of the members of both lists has an article and the members of older sections have as well, without additional info. Any reader can go to the articles for details regarding members of any section for additional data. I'm removing the notices which are three years old. I also corrected automatically generated red text error messages in references that had remained since as long ago as May 2011. Activist (talk) 11:58, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an entirely, entirely unref'd list. It is the Original Research of apparently a single editor and is such is not acceptable under policy. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:14, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, there are list articles at wikipedia. It may be a solution to create a "list of muckrakers". That wouldn't solve the problem of being unref'd, however.  Capitalismojo (talk) 14:21, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove list of muckrakers? 

message: After reading up about the very word Muckraker I've noticed something that is a minor edit suggestion. About who could be a muckraker. And it's not seems not only journalist could be muckrakers. Possible suggestion of change to group or media people? TheRealVordox (talk) 15:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  A simple change suggestion 

message: Yesterday, RJensen added to the article:
"James Aucoin says by 1970 the terms 'muckraking,' 'reform journalism,' and 'investigative journalism', 'Were the same type of journalism'."  
The implication is that Aucoin is saying the terms are synonymous.  That's not what Aucoin actually said, though.  Here's the exact quote, which reads much differently once RJensen's selective quoting disappears:  
"Carey McWilliams, editor of the Nation, assumed in 1970 that investigative journalism, and reform journalism, or muckraking, were the same type of journalism. (James L. Aucoin, The Evolution of American Investigative Journalism (University of Missouri Press, 2007) p. 90.)
Aucoin said that one individual "assumed" the terms as synonyms.  Not that they are synonyms, but that one editor, McWilliams used them as synonyms.  That is not an insignificant distinction.  We cannot simply say the terms are synonymous based on Aucoin.  We can, however, say that the terms are often used as synonyms.  And, importantly, we cannot also make the logical leap that every usage of the term "investigative journalist" means "muckraker" based on Aucoin, because that's not what he says... Aucoin says one editor,  McWilliams,  assumed it to be a synonym. I am going to adjust the verbiage to reflect the actuality of what Aucoin purports. Marteau (talk) 10:08, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: What would you think about, rather than this be an issue of continuing non-resolution, instead, of combining the two with a section title of, say:  ==Muckrakers - Investigative Journalists== ? I know that there are contemporary individuals who adopt the title as a term of respect and as a link to their cultural antecedents. One noted member of that fraternity, if fact, has used it proudly as a self-description on his website. (He has no article, however.)  Activist (talk) 19:41, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am opposed to including anyone on a list in this article who has not been labeled a "muckraker" by a reliable source. There is a place for lists of "investigative journalists" (e.g. the "Investigative Journalism" article, or a category, or a "See also" here), but not in the body of this article.  Marteau (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am opposed to including any modern day list of "investigative journalists" at this article; there may be place for such a list at "Investigative Journalism", but not here. I am also concerned that: a) aspects of the "Since 1945" section may not be supported by the sources provided; b) the whole of the article in US-centric & does not cover the use of the term "muckrakers" globally, where it is (almost universally?) a pejorative. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 21:31, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Investigative Journalist" as a synonym for "Muckraker" 

message: In 2011, another editor asked for sourcing for the comment that "many" consider Julius Chambers to be the original muckraker. While there might be a case made for such a conclusion, his undercover reporting, decades before the term was coined, doesn't seem to have generated that label. After an extensive search, I was unable to find any reference to Chambers as a muckraker. Accordingly,  I modified the description and removed the request. Activist (talk) 09:27, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Julius Chambers 

message: This whole wiki article legitimizes and perpetuates a term that is intended to marginalize and diminish individuals.  It was never intended to exalt or celebrate people that it was applied to - in the past or in the present.  It is a pejorative term.  And it is a colloquialism in the bargain.  No one should be making a list especially in the present stating that certain people should be considered muckrakers; and then as I see in this talk section quibbling about who should be on the list from more recent decades.  
I think it is problematic to slant this article in the direction that the term has legitimacy, in the past or in the present.  No one would think of doing such a thing with the N-word; muckraker is no more worthy than that.  It would be the same as saying these people in the past were referenced as N-words, these people in the present are N-words.  No one would ever think to do that. 
It should not be acceptable to malign people in the past - and in the present, and act like it is all so academic - when it really isn’t.  The article lacks a critical look at the word in terms of the fact it was a slur and is a slur on individuals still.  A lot of contributors to this wiki are perpetuating the slur and engaging in slander in the bargain.  Then going on to perpetuate a colloquialism.    
I would have expected better out of wiki-dom. Bethatuw (talk) 14:01, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Pejoratives and colloquialisms that are notable are reasonable topics for encyclopedia articles. If you have reliable sources that present significant views on the topic that are not adequately covered in the article, please provide them with suggestions for specific changes to the article. Schazjmd (talk) 15:14, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muckraker/Muckraking Perpetuating a Pejorative and a Colloquialism