Talk:Whitman massacre

message: This article and the article Walla Walla Massacre deal with the same incident, with slightly different perspectives.  Perhaps a merge is in order?  WBardwin 08:03, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr.Whitman chose to go outside he was not snuck up on. 98.97.42.243 (talk) 22:46, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplication 

message: Perhaps there should also be an incorporation of the Cayuse War article's information.  Schwael 06:22, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorporation? 

message: The new article Whitman Agency Oregon looks to be duplicate subject of this article, though it has a different way of approaching the topic.  I think it should be merged into this article leaving a redirect.  —EncMstr (talk) 02:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree.  I think most history courses/books are more likely to list the Whitman massacre as a title.  However, merging the Agency would allow greater expansion of the Whitmans' missionary work, education, and health care prior to their deaths.  WBardwin (talk) 02:41, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The agency one should be merged here, as I don't ever recall that as a title for the "massacre". But at some point the Whitman Mission (which might be what the author was going for) as it is usually called should be made an article instead of the current redirect. That would then better cover the background to the attack and role in the Oregon Trail, etc. Though a really large article could cover both the mission and the the Nat' Historic Site, but the current article lacks few details on either the mission or the site. Aboutmovies (talk) 02:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from Whitman Agency 

message: In chapter IV of J.P. Dunn, Jr., Massacres of the mountains: a history of the Indian wars of the far West 1815-1875 (1885, now ), which describes the Whitman massacre in great detail, the massacre is placed in the context of two territorial conflicts in which the Whitman settlement was a key element. First, the Hudson's Bay Company at the time held sway over the Oregon territory and resisted American pioneers settling there. As detailed in the Whitman article, Whitman had brought a great many American pioneers with him, and also brought certain agricultural techniques to the Cayuses, which the Company felt reduced the land area that could be exploited for fur gathering. Since the Hudson's Bay Company was from British America (Canada), this conflict reduces to an American-British conflict over unclaimed territories. Second, the Whitmans were protestant missionaries and the book describes how Protestant and Catholic (Jesuit) missionary activity in the area was more about claiming the territory for their version of Christianity than about (jointly) converting the Indians. This conflict then transfers European religious wars to the new territories. The article does mention the possible role of the Jesuit missionaries, but is silent on the role of the Hudson's Bay Company. But it is certainly imaginable that the fur traders, too, played into the Indian resentment about Whitman's failure as a doctor among them and thus sparked these events to remove the stick in the mud that the Whitman's mission represented to their territorial aspirations. Dunn reports that these allegations were investigated and circulated widely at the time. I'm just wondering why none of this can be found in the article. Has this theory since been rejected? Zwart (talk) 14:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't read much on the role of the HBC, but keep two things in mind. The HBC immediately sent men to the scene of the massacre to try and free the hostages. So, if they really wanted to, you would think they would have looked the other way. Secondly, you need to look at your source in context. It appears you are saying it is from 1885. History, and the interpretation/researching/scholarly aspects to history have some a really long way since then. You also still have at that time the rivalry between Britain and the US, and many of the people writing history would still have events such as the Oregon boundary dispute and the Pig War fresh in their minds. Anti-British sentiment was still around, and the HBC was always a source of resentment for Americans in the Oregon region. So, those things may play a role in the analysis of this source and how accurate their opinions may be. Again, I haven't researched anything on this (the HBC's possible "role" in the massacre), but my general sense of things from related research is that though they were not fond of American settlers, they certainly did not want them wiped off the face of the earth. Also remember, that even the HBC and British were still rather racist back then just as the Americans were, and Americans were generally white and shared a common heritage, and in 1847 the boundary dispute had already been settled. So, it is possible their is truth to the HBC item, but more research would be needed. Aboutmovies (talk) 21:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that Hudson Bays' factor, Peter Skene Ogden (not necessarily known as the most reasoned man in his actions with native people) was instrumental in the negotiations and the ransom paid for captives.  He returned many of the children to their families or guardians.  The company did not demand, or receive, a repayment of their expenses in the matter.  Sounds like some measure of cooperation between the parties.  WBardwin (talk) 00:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Role of the Hudson's Bay Company 

message: When I was in middle school in Washington (up in Oak Harbor, in 1998 or 1999) I was taught in our state studies class that a contributing factor to the violence was that several Indians died due to food poisoning. This was brought on from their theft of crops from the mission garden which had been sprayed with pesticides.
Can't really give you a source other than myself, but it's another part of the story if you'd like to include it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.95.128.213 (talk) 01:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a source that documents the extremely high death rates among the Indians that Whitman was "treating".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:25, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I reworded the passage and restored it, and added two additional sources.   GregJackP Boomer!  22:45, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poisoning? 

message: As I usually do, I like to establish what I'm doing when on mass-edit sprees. Given how short Waiilatpu Mission is, I think once I'm done adding content that the two articles should be merged. Anyway here's what I have planned for expansion:
*Background: I don't quite know what else to add... It is essentially a copy & paste of the Addis article.
*Land ownership Basically done, I think I've covered the conflicting views well enough.
*Use of poison Done.
*Outside influences I wish to divide this into two sub-sections. The first would keep the current name and cover three individuals I've been able to read of that influenced the Cayuse and Nez Perce to view the missionaries with hostility: Joe Gray, Tom Hill and Joe Lewis. As there is a reasonable amount of materials on him, I'll create a page for Tom Hill at some point. The second would be "Traditional Medicine Men", being about the Sahaptin (specifically Cayuse) views on Medicine men, relocated into the Background section. I'd wager it best to have the meat of the content to be located on the Cayuse page.
*Disease and other causes This would also be divided into two unrelated sub-sections, the Walla Walla Expedition and Supposed Catholic Conspiracy. The Walla Walla Expedition will soon enough be a separate page, but a brief overview would be apt. Men like Spalding were insistent upon the Catholics having caused the murders, let's work out all of his and others' claims.
*Outbreak of the violence More details on the release of hostages and the persecution of the murders by the other Cayuse, Walla Walla and Nez Perce (I've read passing mentions of this)
*Trial Far more on contemporary views, especially on the innocence of some or all of the men, is required. However, I think it would be more appropriate to have such a broad overview located on the Cayuse War page.
*Anniversary remembrance This content is barely related to the massacre, and should be split.
*Articles to write: Walla Walla Expedition, Tom Hill (Delaware) and Archibald McKinlay.
I'll keep trudging forward. Voltaire's Vaquero (talk) 06:43, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overhaul of article 

message: ... beginning with Miss Bewley, according to survivor Catherine Sager Pringle's eyewitness account in Across the Plains in 1844.  It's on page 32 in the Ye Galleon Press second edition of 1993.Starhistory22 (talk) 04:18, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  All of the little girls were raped by the pedophile Indians 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved  Mike Cline (talk) 15:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Whitman massacre →  – The name "Whitman massacre" is no longer in use by the National Park Service. Instead "Tragedy at Waiilatpu" has been used to describe the events in a more neutral way that accounts for the tragic loss of life of not only the Whitmans and the white settlers, but also of the Cayuse people. I believe following the NPS' lead here makes sense for Wikipedia's standards. 
CodeHitchhiker (talk) 14:04, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 6 April 2022