Talk:Time Enough for Love

message: I removed the paragraph about the ending for two reasons. First I never saw it that way, he doesn't seem to die at the end of the book, so why write that he does? It might be a personal interpretation, maybe. Then, anyway, there are other novels featuring Lazarus Long, set after this one, so there's no need to read To Sail Beyond the Sunset to know that he's still alive. (Besides... I gotta know for sure, I'm him! ;-) ) Lazarus Long 21:59, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccuracies

message: I have added The Tale of the Adopted Daughter chapter to the Western Science Fiction category. This may be set on a distant planet with some peripheral reference to spaceships and genetically-modified talking mules, but it is a classic frontier/western story, right down to the covered wagons, log cabins and squaredancing. --Surgeonsmate 18:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western Science Fiction 

message: Didn't want to just go on and edit it as I've never done that so far. I wanted to point out the part that says it shows an evolution of his view of homosexuality through his writings. In Stranger In A Strange Land, there is a scene in which a male is invited to a menage a trois with another male and a female. The invited male recoils in disgust/fear/whatever you like, but no one else sees anything really wrong with participating in it. Not sure how this is interpreted or if its of any note, but this section of the article lists The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (1966) as the beginning of the evolution depicting a negative light on homosexuality. Stranger In A Strange Land was published five years earlier, in 1961. Any feedback?Kristiki 06:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The evolution of Heinlein's view of homosexuality 

message: I hardly see how this is relevant to the book really. The only "theme" is the evolution of the rest of the galaxy by removing the best from Earth. The Robot novels were set in the solar system, with a system of government, where Earth and the colonies each had a seat in the government (I don't remember exactly, whatever). The book is as much a Outer Worlds vs Earth novel as it is Tertius vs Secundus. The smart people just give up and leave the stupid behind. So in other worlds, I don't see the connection at all between Heinlein and Asimov, Outer Worlds vs Earth, and Europe vs America. Mobkey 13:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is more my opinion that the theme should be (as is present in many of Heinlein's books) that freedom is to be found, fairly exclusively, on the frontier. Secundus was founded as a way of getting away from an overcrowded, overbureaucratic Earth.  Tertius was founded when Secundus went the same way.  Lazarus moves away from his bank and home when the town restricts freedom, threatening to nationalize his bank.  I think Earth v. The Galaxy is not the theme.  I suspect a rewrite is in order.--Wehwalt 15:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Outer Worlds vs Earth

message: Just questioning the addition of "Music" as a Major Theme. Wouldn't this fit more appropriately under a section addressing the structure or style of the work? Music is not necessarily a theme of the story, but it is used to format the novel.Jim Dunning | talk 19:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent addition of Music as a theme 

message: ...and few references. For example, I utterly fail to see how homosexuality is considered "defective" in "Moon". I remember that it is mentioned: The society on the moon has far fewer women than men; and the protagonist mentions that one result is that men turn to other men. The protagonist's opinion, however, is that most men want a real female. I don't think anybody would want to argue with this?
So: Bottom line... this article needs a lot of work. -- Nils Jeppe (talk) 01:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the point is, that it marks a midpoint in the evolution of Heinlein's expressed view of homosexuality.  He still doesn't accept it, it is still second best, but necessary.  The people who prefer homosexuality make no appearance in the book.  The "defective" comes from Stranger, and is discussed ad nauseum in various articles.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of opinions in this article... 

message: Since the article has been flagged for possible original research for over a year for the Major Themes and Connections sections, and nothing's been done to improve the situation, I've relocated the material to this page for work.Jim Dunning | talk 15:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the book should be described as a sequel to Methuselah's Children, where the character of Lazarus Long was introduced. —75.4.242.162 (talk) 17:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncited Themes and Connections material 

message: Time Enough for Love explores a number of themes, all of which appear to have been important to Heinlein, as each of them is featured in many of his other novels and short stories.
====Love====
One of the central themes of the book is the importance of love in human life.  In discussing love, Lazarus and the other characters develop the distinction between Agape (spiritual love) and eros (sexual love).  Later in the novel, Lazarus credits his friends and family with reminding him of the importance of love, thereby restoring his will to live.
====Incest====
Incest and discussion of incest recurs throughout the novel, especially in The Tale of the Adopted Daughter, The Tale of the Twins Who Weren't and the bridging material that ties the various tales together. 
Each of the 'incestuous' relationships described is in some way different from traditional incest and explores a different philosophical point of view. The "twins who weren't", for example, share no common genetic material, and their offspring have no greater chance of genetic defects than the offspring of two strangers. The pair are siblings, but had been told by authorities that they were to be a breeding pair. In their minds, there is no sin. Lazarus Long wrestles with the implications, and eventually decides the two should remain together.
Similarly, in "The Tale of the Adopted Daughter", Lazarus raises a girl from infancy. While Dora ages normally, Lazarus benefits from his greatly extended lifespan, and so she quickly catches up to his apparent age. The couple then become pioneers in the frontier, where they begin a sexual relationship, marry, and build a family. Again, Heinlein frames the situation to avoid the traditional problems with incest: similar physical age, no genetic relationship, Dora's initiation of the relationship, and the lack of a social stigma. 
In the bridging material, two twins are created from Lazarus's genetic material, identical except that they are female. The children continually tease Lazarus sexually, but he resists their advances until he is informed by a computer that he has no unhealthy recessives that can recombine. At that point he begins a sexual relationship with them. 
Finally, as noted earlier, while traveling back to 1916 Lazarus meets and falls in love with his own mother, and feels free of any guilt at having sex with her. Again, numerous justifications are used for this: Lazarus's lack of genetic flaws, his mother's pregnancy, her open marriage with Lazarus's father, his knowledge as a time traveler that there would be no lasting damage to her from the experience, and the fact that she did not realize that they were even related. 
Another point of view presented in this and other Future History stories is that the social stigma attached to incestuous relationships is no longer necessary when deleterious genes can not accumulate in offspring. One example is how the relationship between Lazarus and Maureen only moves beyond smoldering looks when Maureen admits she is already pregnant by her husband, and therefore can not conceive. Another example is how Lazarus is quite willing to have children with his descendants, as genetic screening and gene surgery in the far future utterly removes the possibility of bad outcomes from inbreeding. It is, however, interesting that this is notably different from Lazarus's reactions to consanguineous relationships in Methuselah's Children, the novel in which he first appears, although it is apparently already the attitude of most of the younger members of the Howard Families.
---In this regard Heinlein also presages the debate to come after the current "designer babies" one is finished Shannock9 (talk) 15:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Major themes

message: Incest and discussion of incest recurs throughout the novel, especially in The Tale of the Adopted Daughter, The Tale of the Twins Who Weren't and the bridging material that ties the various tales together. 
Each of the 'incestuous' relationships described is in some way different from traditional incest and explores a different philosophical point of view. The "twins who weren't", for example, share no common genetic material, and their offspring have no greater chance of genetic defects than the offspring of two strangers. The pair are siblings, but had been told by authorities that they were to be a breeding pair. In their minds, there is no sin. Lazarus Long wrestles with the implications, and eventually decides the two should remain together.
Similarly, in "The Tale of the Adopted Daughter", Lazarus raises a girl from infancy. While Dora ages normally, Lazarus benefits from his greatly extended lifespan, and so she quickly catches up to his apparent age. The couple then become pioneers in the frontier, where they begin a sexual relationship, marry, and build a family. Again, Heinlein frames the situation to avoid the traditional problems with incest: similar physical age, no genetic relationship, Dora's initiation of the relationship, and the lack of a social stigma. 
In the bridging material, two twins are created from Lazarus's genetic material, identical except that they are female. The children continually tease Lazarus sexually, but he resists their advances until he is informed by a computer that he has no unhealthy recessives that can recombine. At that point he begins a sexual relationship with them. 
Finally, as noted earlier, while traveling back to 1916 Lazarus meets and falls in love with his own mother, and feels free of any guilt at having sex with her. Again, numerous justifications are used for this: Lazarus's lack of genetic flaws, his mother's pregnancy, her open marriage with Lazarus's father, his knowledge as a time traveler that there would be no lasting damage to her from the experience, and the fact that she did not realize that they were even related. 
Another point of view presented in this and other Future History stories is that the social stigma attached to incestuous relationships is no longer necessary when deleterious genes can not accumulate in offspring. One example is how the relationship between Lazarus and Maureen only moves beyond smoldering looks when Maureen admits she is already pregnant by her husband, and therefore can not conceive. Another example is how Lazarus is quite willing to have children with his descendants, as genetic screening and gene surgery in the far future utterly removes the possibility of bad outcomes from inbreeding. It is, however, interesting that this is notably different from Lazarus's reactions to consanguineous relationships in Methuselah's Children, the novel in which he first appears, although it is apparently already the attitude of most of the younger members of the Howard Families.
---In this regard Heinlein also presages the debate to come after the current "designer babies" one is finished Shannock9 (talk) 15:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Incest

message: IIRC this is Heinlein's first book where a self aware computer is accepted as a member of a human family ("Moon" has one - Mike - as a main character and friend).  In later sections the AI is transferred into a human clone, and we are to infer becomes part of the mating group.  This peg is used for (at least) three Heinlein recurring themes: What does it mean to be Human?, What is responsible parenting?, and the Incest theme noted above. [I know this is original research - but I'm only a fan , not a critic.  Perhaps when this section is sorted out my little contribution can be considered.]  Shannock9 (talk) 15:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: AIs as family members

message: This book is an outgrowth of the earlier Methuselah's Children and is connected to The Number of the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, and To Sail Beyond the Sunset, as well as several other Heinlein novels and stories in his Future History.
The book also marks the conclusion to the evolution of Heinlein's view of homosexuality.  In The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (published only seven years before), homosexuals were seen as defectives, and homosexual sex a poor substitute.  A more accepting view was put forth in I Will Fear No Evil, and in this book, it is seen as fully acceptable and almost indistinguishable from the heterosexual variety.  (Gender reassignment, however, is still seen -- by Lazarus, at least -- as making "fake females" out of "inadequate males".)
Finally, most of the events are told in first person from the point of view of the protagonist, Lazarus Long.  Many are retold, also first person, from the point of view of his mother, Maureen Johnson Long, in To Sail Beyond the Sunset, the last novel Heinlein wrote and published before he died in 1988.  (According to Maureen in that book, Lazarus' account in Time Enough For Love of their 1916-7 meeting is incomplete and inaccurate in many respects.)  This approach to storytelling can also be seen in the first two books of Orson Scott Card's The Tales of Alvin Maker series.
The book references many of the previous works of Heinlein either directly or obliquely.
*There is much discussion of the events and characters of Methuselah's Children.
*Lazarus refers several times to Andrew Jackson Libby, the gifted mathematician of Methuselah's Children and Misfit. 
*Lazarus mentions a blind accordion player who shows up at the Martian bordello Lazarus manages.  This is Rhysling of The Green Hills of Earth.
*Multiple references are made to the song "The Green Hills of Earth", with Lazarus unaware that he had known its composer.
*The starship Vanguard, the sister ship to the New Frontiers, is mentioned as having been found lost in space.  This is the ship from Orphans of the Sky.
*Multiple references are made to the Harriman Foundation, founded by D. D. Harriman of "Requiem" and The Man Who Sold the Moon.
*Lazarus makes reference to an experiment where a male brain was transplanted into a female body, which occurred in I Will Fear No Evil.
: Actually, the book should be described as a sequel to Methuselah's Children, where the character of Lazarus Long was introduced. —75.4.242.162 (talk) 17:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Connections to Heinlein's other work

message: I've a definite memory that the survivors from the Vanguard are not just savages, but also cannibles who kill and eat some of the civilised humans who contact them.  And are apparently then left alone.  Yet this seems bizarre, particularly since only the Muties on the Vanguard were cannibles, and all of the male survivors are from the Crew.
Is my memory correct?  I didn't keep the book.  --GwydionM (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: what are cannibles? 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:956C:1C35:22BF:46F1 (talk) 09:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The survivors from Orphans of the Sky 

message: I am surprised that in all the discussion, no mention has been made of the obvious theme of Eugenics in Time Enough for Love. The entire Howard program was based on the idea of positive eugenics - inducement to breed selectively in a form of directed evolution. The theme is now unpopular and generally discredited, but without it, the book has no framework. Ptilinopus (talk) 00:13, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eugenics