Talk:Abkhazia/Archive 1

message: What a delightful irony - the dispute symbol resembles Abkhazia's national sign!!!
What appears to be an informtive web site:  http://www.abkhazia.org/home.html gives a population figure of 100,000, a much smaller number than is listed in this entry (200,000-250,000). Hmmm... Is there some way to determine which is the more accurate number?  Frankatca
: The 100,000 refers to (1) the population of the capital city; and (2) the population of ethnic Abkhazians - not the total population of the whole region.  --David Schaich 02:59, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Should discuss (maybe just mention)(not internationally recnognised) Abkhazian stamps.  --Daniel C. Boyer 19:31, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Stamps

message: Source/year      	Total  	Georgians	Abhazians	Russians	Armenians
Сensus 1926	174.126	31.350   	83.794   	?       	?
Сensus 1959	405.000	158.200  	56.197   	86.700  	64.400
Сensus 1970	?      	199.596  	77.276   	?       	?
Сensus 1979	?      	213.322  	83.087   	?       	?
Сensus 1989	?      	?        	?        	?       	?
Rovoam
Abkhazian kingdom was one of the feudal knighthoods in Georgia, along with Mengrelian kingdom, Emeretian kingdom, Kartli kingdom and others. There is no documented evidence (Georgian, Armenian, Arab or Greek) that the majority of population of the Abkhazia were the people who are identified currently as Abkhaz, or Georgians (Mengrelians, Svans) for that matter. Historians did not do histories of common people at that time. There is evidence, however, that the feudal lords and the elite of Abkhazia were Georgians. The reunification of Georgia started from Abkhazia by Abkhaz kings (princes), and ended up with kicking out Arabs from the whole territory of Georgia including Tbilisi by David III (see Britannica for that) in the 11th century.  Your excerpt from the Russian article somehow misses that. It also misses the fact that during the Russian conquest of Caucasus in the beginning of 19th century, large number of Abkhaz along with other North Caucasian Muslim tribes (Chechens, Cherkez and Adigeess) were forced to abandon their homes to move to Turkey and Arab countries. Consequently more Abkhaz people live currently in Turkey and Jordan than in Abkhazia proper. That ethnic cleansing was done by Russians (not by Stalin – a Russian ruler of Georgian origin) in a similar way what Putin is doing now in Chechnya. So, I'd argue more for questionable neutrality of the Russian article than the English one. Considering the continuing Russian support to Abkhaz and Osetian separatists, using the Russian article as an authoritative source would be the same as using the information from Georgian newsgroups or press.
bjs
I just found out that there is a Georgian version of Wikipedia already. Wanna replace the English and Russian articles with the translation of the Georgian one on Abkhazia? Russia has been an active participant in the conflict, and, therefore the Russian page cannot be considered as a neutral source. If there is a need of synchronization among the English, Georgian and Russian pages on Abkhazia on anything else related to the history, politics and culture of Caucasus, the English one needs to be used as an authoritative source and translate it into Russian and Georgian.
bjs.
::Well, if you think that Russian article is not good enough, because Russia has been a participant in the conflict, you probably assume that Russian article was written by Mr.Gorbachev or Mr.Eltsin. Since you think that Georian article is the most objective, you probably think that Georgia is not a participant of the conflict. However, this article was written by me, myself, and I am not a president of Russia, and I am not Abhazian, nor Georgian. Му article (in Russian) is based on the objective research, which is available on-line on both Russian and English (see, for example publications of U.S. Institute of Peace, some of them written by G.Starovoitova - a very trusted writer). If you think English version of Wikipedia is a main source, then we need to delete all existing Russian et al articles and translate English Wikipedia into Russian and other languages. However, the quality of English version is very poor (compare to Russian version). I don't think it is really a good idea to have everything identical (and maybe having being approved by The Central Commitee of the Communist Party?)
::As of Abahizian history you have made a very valid point: there is not enough information - does it mean that we have to take your (pro-Georgian) interpretation? - I don't think so! Unless you are 1000 yesrs old and you lived in Ancient Abhazian Kingdom. But the truth is: Abhazian Kingdom existed at the same time as Georgian Kingdom(s), and at some point in history Abhazian Kings were in control of Georgian Kingdoms (ex. Abhazian king Leo, king George, etc.). 
::But I am not going to argue with you or with other nationalists. Because I don't care. English source of Wikipedia is very biosed already. So do whatever you want. Make up your story the way you want it to be. It's all yours now... Maybe when Abhazian people will read your version of their history they will change their mind too, and the conflict will be over? Good-Bye! And keep dreaming! ROVOAM.
::P.S. English version of the article does not even mention about Abhazian Kingdom in its history section. What kind of history this is???!!! Is this what you call NPOV?! In Russian Wikipedia there is an article called "Abhazian Kingdom" in addition to the article of "Abhazian Republic" But... you probably don't want to know this! So... Keep dreaming! ROVOAM.
Yes, they were in control of Georgian kingdom and they were Georgians. At least they spoke and wrote in Georgian. Read the history including written by your own historians - Armenians!!! - not the one written on Lubianka. And, please do not vandalize the page. BJS.
With due respect to Starovoitova as a Gorbachov’s time human rights activist, she cannot be considered as an authoritative writer on Georgian or Abkhazian history, especially on the ancient history. As for U.S. Institute of Peace, their branches exist in all former SU countries including Georgia and they too have some reputable writers. There publications are also online, and you can read them too and maybe translate in Russian to enhance the quality of your Russian article. BTW, all three countries, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia have agreed officially not to use the Russian term Transcaucassia any more. So, please use South Caucasus  instead.
BJS.
::OK! Let's hide the well-known history facts to present Gerorgian point of view! Is this what you like to do? With all due respect to your ethnical feeling I would like to include in this article true history section. Sorry, but I would revert your changes. I also have rights to edit this article, not only you. If you don't like this, you are welcome to ask for arbitration. - Rovoam
::P.S. Transcaucasian Federation and Transcaucassia are not the same terms!
Hi Rovoam,
Well, I left the link but I had to revert your history edit, because it is a Russian POV. Abkhaz were not a majority at the begining of 20th century (see the Britanicca reference in the body of the text, which was there before I made any edits to this text). Russians made them a majority through ethnic cleansing. As much as you like to portray it as a conflict between Abkhaz and Georgians, it is not. It is a conflict created by Russians, fueled by Russians, and it will be over soon once Russia becomes a democratic state and quits its imperial ambitions, which is long overdue, and all refugees will return to their home places.
BJS.
::I have read Rovoam edits, while I agree there was POV in it, your edits are as well POV. Many of Rovoam ressources were not Russian "propaganda." And besides, I thought Rovoam was Russian not Armenian. The Russians never made them majority there, please refer to your sources, because what you say here is simply ridiculous. This situation in the article, seems exactly like the Karabagh entry. Fadix 01:44, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population 

message: This is unbelievable! Wikipedia such a GREAT Internet site and you have such a BAD article. The whole article doesn't represent the TRUTH! It's absolutely PRO-GEORGIAN!!! They tried really hard to make this article, calling people who were fighting back the crusial attack of Georgian army - separatists, and saying 'breaking the peace' to discribe Abkhazian army's action to free the capital from Georgian's, who were killing normal citizens!
It's not fair!
Let the world know the truth! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.65.98.11 (talk • contribs) 20:02, 31 December 2005.
:I probably jumped the gun in undoing this user's edits to this article, in that since this article apparently has POV issues they might have had some valid content. Someone who's familiar with the issue of Georgia might want to give them a look. On the other hand some easily checkable false numbers were inserted, things like "on the western end for Georgia" were deleted for no apparent reason, and the user has committed some previous vandalism. --Kizor 21:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [No Title]

message: I am trying to add a new section describing the stance of the Abkhaz side in the conflict so far. Talk:Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. I have found some references for that. Please come and contribute with verified information. Donnerstag 22:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reworking article [[Georgian-Abkhaz conflict]] 

message: #I just think that having next to each other two links which led to the same article (one through redirect page) - is nonsense.
#And abkhazia definitly cannot be considered - georgia's subdivision.
#Regarding status: they are not sturgling for independence, which would refer to theeir "separatist" status. So "de-facto independent" is more appropriate wording. --tasc 08:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please fix the errors in the article but don't do wholesale reverts. --Khoikhoi 15:38, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well... That's exactly what i've been doing! No? --tasc 15:58, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really, you reverted, but the article still had some POV in it, like the scare quotes. --Khoikhoi 00:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  suhum, suhumi... etc 

message: KING LEON OF EGRIS-ABKHAZIA
At the very end of the 8th century, Abkhazian Achrontos (Byzantine-appointed Governor) Leon launched an anti-imperial uprising, ousted Byzantine troops from most of Lazica, proclaimed the Kingdom of Egris-Abkhazia and bestowed the title of the King upon himself. As of today, some verbal supporters of Abkhazian separatism mistakenly believe that the Kingdom of Egris-Abkhazia was the first state of the Apsuans. That is wrong due to the fact that by its whole nature, Egris-Abkhazia was a pure example of a Georgian state: the majority of its population were Svans, Zans and Kartvelians (all the three groups were speaking closely related languages and were representing the branches of the furture Georgian nation), the official languages were Kartvelian (Georgian) alongside with Greek, the capital of the Kingdom was Kutaisi that was almost purely Kartvelian city. Two decades later, Egris-Abkhazia also seceded from Byzantine Empire ecclesiastically: Egris-Abkhazian church broke with the Patriarch of Constantinople and went under the Jurisdiction of the Catholicos of Mtskheta (the head of East Georgian Orthodox Christian Church) and switched the language of services from Greek to Georgian (Kartvelian). In fact, that was the creation of a united Georgian church that has been existing since the above events excluding a relatively short period of time between 1810 and 1917. (Andersen)
The end of the 10th century saw the forming of the first united Georgian monarchy when Curopalate David of Tao-Klarjeti invaded the Erldom of Kartli previously disputed between the Emirate of Tephelis, and the Kingdoms of Kakheti and Egris-Abkhazia, and crowned his adopted son Bagrat Bagrationi the King of Kartli in 975. Three years later, after the death of his uncle Theodosius the Blind, King of Egris-Abkhazia , Bagrat inherited Abkhazian throne. In 1001 Bagrat also included Tao-Klarjeti (Curopalatinate of Iberia) into his domain as a result of David’s death and finally, in 1008-1010 annexed Kakheti and Ereti thus becoming the King of the united Georgia both eastern and western. (Allen)
SELJUK INVASION: ABKHAZIA BECOMES ONE OF THE LAST BASTIONS OF GEORGIAN RESISTANCE
The second half of the 11th century was marked by the disastrous invasion of the Seljuk Turks who by the end of 1040s succeeded in building a vast nomadic empire including most of the Central Asia and Iran. In 1071 Seljuk army destroyed the united Byzantine-Armenian and Georgian forces in the battle of Mantsikert, and by 1081, all of Armenia, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Syria and most of Georgia and other countries of the area were conquered and devastated by the Seljuks.
In Georgia, it was only Abkhazia and mountainous areas of Svanetia, Racha and Khevi-Khevsureti remained out of Seljuk control and served as relatively safe haven for numerous refugees. All the rest of the country was dominated by the conquerors that were destroying the cities and fortresses, looting the villages, wiping out both aristocracy and farming population and colonizing the country with the nomadic tribes from Central Asia. In fact, by the end of the 80s of the 11th century, Georgians were at the edge of being irreversibly outnumbered by the newcomers in their own land. (Andersen)
KING DAVID AGMASHENEBELI AND GEORGIAN RECONQUISTA: 1089 -1125
The Anti-Seljuk struggle in Georgia was led by the young King David IV who inherited the throne in 1089 in the age of 16 after the death of his father George II Bagrationi.
Soon after coming to power, David re-built regular army and created peasant militia in order to be able to resist Seljuk colonization of the country. The First Crusade (1096-1099) and Crusaders’ offensive against Seljuk Turks in Anatolia and Syria favored David’s attempts to re-conquer Georgia. By the end of 1099 David stopped paying tribute to the Seljuks and put most of Georgian lands except Tbilisi and Ereti under his effective control having Abkhazia and Svanetia as his reliable rear bases.	
In 1105–1124 Georgian armies under King David undertake a series of brilliant campaigns against the Seljuk Turks and liberate not only the rest of Georgia but also Christian-populated Ghishi- Kabala area in western Shirvan and a big portion of Armenia. During the same period of time, Georgian protectorate was established over Alania (1120) and Islamized eastern Shirvan (1124). Several months later, King David died (01/1125) leaving Georgia with the status of a strong regional power. In his country, King David is called Agmashenebeli. That can be translated into English as “the re-constructor” or “the restorer”
QUEEN TAMAR THE GREAT: 1184 -1213
Reign of Queen Tamar was the peak of Georgia’s might in the whole history of the nation.
In 1194-1204 Tamar’s armies crushed new Turkish invasions from the south-east and south and launched several successful campaigns into Turkish-controlled Southern Armenia. As a result, most of Southern Armenia with the cities of Karin, Erzinjan, Khelat, Mush and Van, was put under Georgian control. Although not included into Georgian Crown lands and left under nominal rule of local Turkish Emirs and Sultans, Southern Armenia became a protectorate of the Kingdom of Georgia.
The temporary fall of the Byzantine Empire in 1204 to the Crusaders left Georgia the strongest Christian State in the whole East Mediterranean area. The same year Queen Tamar sent her troops to take over the former Byzantine Lazona and Paryadria with the cities of Atina, Riza, Trebizond, Querasunt, Amysos, Kotyora, Heraclea and Sinopa. In 1205, the occupied territory was transformed into the Empire of Trebizond with Tamar’s’ relative Prince Alexius Comnenus crowned Emperor. Although officially called an Empire the new state was Georgia’s dependency for more than two hundred years.
In 1210 Georgian armies invaded northern Iran (today’s Iranian Azerbaijan) and took the cities of Marand, Tebriz, Ardebil, Zenjan and Kazvin putting part of the conquered territory under Georgian protectorate.
	
That was the maximal extent of Georgia throughout her history. During the described period of time Queen Tamar was addressed as “The Queen of Abkhazians, Kartvels, Rans, Kakhs and Armenians, Shirvan-Shakhine and Shakh-in-Shakhine, The Sovereign of the East and West”.  Georgian historians often refer to her as “Queen Tamar the Great”.
The period between the early 12th and the early 13th centuries and especially, the era of Tamar the Great, can truly be considered as the golden age of Georgia. Besides the political and military achievements, it was marked by the development of culture including the architecture, literature, philosophy and sciences all over Georgia including Abkhazia. (Andersen)
: do you understand difference between history of Georgia and history of Abkhazia? --tasc 15:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Medieval Abkhazia (ca 620 - 1221)

message: Proto-Kartvelians were bordered by Zykh tribes to the north-west (those were Proto-Adygh ancestors of modern Adygh and Apsua ), Proto-Nakhs (ancestors of modern Chechens and some Daghestani peoples) to the north-east, Proto-Armenians to the south-east and Aramaeic-speaking tribes to the south and south-west. 
Between 2100 and 750 B.C., the area survived the invasions by the Hittites, Celts, Medes, Proto-Persians and Cimmerians. At the same  period, the ethnic unity of Proto-Kartvelians broke up into several branches, among them Svanian, Zanyan and East-Kartvelian ones.
	
	
That finally led to the formation of modern Kartvelian languages: Georgian (originating from East Kartvelian vernaculars), Svan, Megrelian and Laz (the latter two originating from Zan dialects). 
By that time Svans were dominant in modern Svanetia and Abkhazia while Zans inhabited modern Georgian province of Samegrelo, north-eastern coast of Turkey between the rivers of Coruh and Kizil-Irmak, and partially Georgian provinces of Imereti and Guria. As of today, most of Abkhazian Georgians speak Megrelian together with Georgian while those living in Kodori canyon, still speak Svan. (Andersen)
	
As a result of cultural and geographic delimitation, two core areas of future Georgian culture and statehood formed in western and eastern Georgia by the end of the 8th century B.C.  The first Georgian state was the Kingdom of Colchis that covered modern western Georgia (including Abkhazia) and modern Turkish provinces of Coruh & Rize. The Kingdom of Colchis has been mentioned in ancient chronicles at least since the middle of the 6th century B.C.  
There is little or no exact information about the ethnic composition of Colchis and Iberia. Since 2 000 B.C., north-western Colchis (modern Abkhazia and part of Krasnodar territory of Russia) was inhabited not only by the Svan and Zan/Sanygh but partially also by the Apsyl people whose origins are unclear. It is assumed but not proven that the Apsyls could be the ancestors of today’s Apsua (one of the ethnic groups of modern Abkhazia speaking distinct language belonging to Adygh group).  In any case though, the Apsyls made up less than a quarter of the whole population of north-western Colchis (modern Abkhazia) of that time.
Another important ethnic element of ancient Colchis were Greeks who between 1000 and 550 B.C., established quite a few trade colonies in the coastal area among them Naessus, Pitiys (modern resort town of  Pitsunda), Dioscurias, Guenos, Phasis (modern Poti), Apsaros and Rhizos (modern Rize in Turkey). Most of the local Greeks called Pontic Greeks, used to live in the coastal cities where they dominated culturally while their influence in the rural area was quite limited.
Between 653 and 333 B.C., both Colchis and Iberia were successfully surviving in fight against Median and later Persian empires. At the end of the 3d century, southern Iberia saw the armies of Alexander the Great who established a vast Greco-Macedonian empire to the south of the Caucasus dominating both west- and central Asia as well as Greece, Egypt and partially India. Neither Iberia, nor Colchis were incorporated into the empire of Alexander or any of the successor Ellinistic states of the Middle East. However, all ancient Georgian kingdoms especially Colchis, were greatly influenced by ancient Greek culture. Greek was widely spoken all over the country and for a while was one of the official languages.
	Between the early 2nd century, B.C.and the late 2nd century A.D., the Kingdom of Colchis together with the neighbor countries, become an arena of long and devastating conflicts between major local powers Rome, Armenia and the short-lived Kingdom of Pontus.
Between 120 and 63 BC, King Mithridate VI Eupator of Pontus, conquered all the Colchis including modern Abkhazia, and incorporated it into his domain that for a while embraced a considerable part of Asia Minor as well as eastern and northern Black Sea coastal areas.
From 187 to 70 B.C., the coalition of greater Armenia and Pontus was actively expanding at the expense of Rome taking over its East Mediterranean possessions. However, the success of anti-Roman alliance did not last long. 
	As a result of brilliant Roman campaigns of Pompeus and Lucullus, the Kingdom of Pontus was completely destroyed by the Romans and all its territory including Colchis (with modern Abkhazia as its part), were incorporated into Roman Empire as her provinces.
The former Kingdom of Colchis was re-organized by the Romans into the province of Lazicum ruled by Roman legati. The Roman period was marked by further Hellenization of the country in terms of language, economy and especially culture.  For example, since the early 3d century, Greco-Latin Philosophical Academy of Phasis (present-day Poti) was quite famous all over the Roman Empire.
The following 600 years of West Georgian/Abkhazian history were marked with manipulation between Rome and Parthia (Iran) who were fighting long wars against each other for the domination in the Middle East including Syria, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Albania (territory of modern Azerbaijan) Iberia and Lazicum.
Persian invasions of Georgian lands touched predominantly Iberia (Eastern Georgia) and less Lazicum (Western Georgia with Abkhazia) where Roman and later Byzantine (East Roman) positions were quite stable until the very end of the 3d century.
In the early 3d century, Roman province of Lazicum was given certain degree of autonomy that by the end of the century developed into full independence and formation  of a new Kingdom of Lazica-Egrisi on the basis of smaller principalities of Zans, Svans, Apsyls and Sanyghs. That new West-Georgian state survived more than 250 years until in 562 it was absorbed by East Roman (Byzantine) Empire.
In the middle of the 4h century, Lazica adopted Christianity as her official religion. That event was preceded by the arrival of St. Simon the Kananites (or Kananaios in Greek) who was preaching all over Lazica and met his death in Suaniri (Abkhazia). According to Moses of Chorene, the enemies of Christianity cut him in two halves with a saw.
The re-incorporation of Lazica with Abkhazia into East Roman Empire in 562 was followed by  ca 150 years of relative stability that ceased in the early 7th century when the Arabs appeared in the area as a new regional if not global power.
I need more time for complete explanation of sources and more historic materials. Also conflict section is completely wrong. Please give me more time.
Mr tasc Thanks for inviting me for discussion, I hope we can keep our conversation pleasant. I also have interesting maps of the region but i don’t know how to share them with you, please let me know how can i send them to you. '''
: There is a link on the left side. Upload files And please, sign your comments --tasc 15:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Early History

message: Dear Mr. Dingley,
I would like to inform you, if you don't know already, of our Neutral Point of View policy here at Wikipedia. It means including every point of view no matter how ridiculous they may seem. Your additions made to this article reflect the Georgian POV. For example, you added:
As of today, some verbal supporters of Abkhazian separatism mistakenly believe that the Kingdom of Egris-Abkhazia was the first state of the Apsuans. That is wrong due to the fact that by its whole nature, Egris-Abkhazia was a pure example of a Georgian state.
It is your POV that it is wrong. This article is already very neutral and I personally don't see anything wrong with it. Your additions are not neutral, furthermore, the sources you have been citing, e.g "History of Georgian People", "Making of Georgian Nation" are not acceptable for a NPOV encyclopedia. I'm going to be reverting your edits until you can make your paragraphs sound more neutral.
P.S. if you're wondering what my nationality is, I'm American. Half Jewish, 1/4 Dutch, 1/4 English. --Khoikhoi 01:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Ldingley 

message: Dear Kwami, 
I completely understand your point and respect your opinion. I’m happy that people taking so much interest in the issue of Caucasus region. However, I’d like to disagree with your comparison of Abkhazia with Taiwan. Taiwan is a completely different issue and background. You see, close to 60% of Taiwanese don’t want any independence from mainland China. Taiwan has never declared independence or labeled itself as a separate country. I don’t consider Taiwan as separatist enclave of China. It is more ideological confrontation which led to the separation. If for instance, Chinese communist party would collapse, Taiwan will take steps of returning into the jurisdiction of China and implementing their experience with democracy into the Chinese system. Taiwan has demonstrated a great success of democracy and therefore, the rest of the world supports Taiwan’s determination. Abkhazia is a completely different issue. 300,000 people (80% of population) were expelled from their homes by force. Ethic cleansing of Georgians (more than 10,000 civilians) was committed and appalling facts of systematic mass murder were verified by Hague and OSCE. Russia openly annexes Abkhazia and has demonstrated that the problem of separatism is not a main case but more in weakening Georgia. Today the regime in Abkhazia is pro Russian and maintains the old tactics of ethnic cleansing and terror in Gali region. People who lived in Abkhazia since days of Argonauts are not allowed back into their homes (ones again, 80% of Abkhazia’s population).  Abkhazia is not Chechnya, Kosovo, Taiwan or even Nogorny-Karabakh. It is a real precedent of separatist failure and annexation by the foreign country. Abkhazia has totalitarian regime which took power after mass slaughter of one ethnic group by using full support of Russian military and government. An apartheid with many similarities with the tactics of Hutu slaughter of the Tutsis in 1993.  In fact if you study the origins of Abkhaz separatism, you clearly can see that provocations and aspirations were initiated by Moscow. You may read all about this in many sources, documents and books. When I started to study this issue I was more inclined in support of separatist cause (as I did support Chechen, Basque, Corsican and Tatar), however after long research I have come into conclusions which contradicted my previous views. Same happened to the Russian journalist Svetlana Chervonnaya, who came to Abkhazia during the war in support of separatist but later after witnessing horrors of massacres and mass murder wrote an amazing book about her experiences and real political intrigue carried out by her country in that small region (Conflict in the Caucasus: Georgia, Abkhazia & the Russian Shadow).  Regards. LD. Noxchi Borz 14:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I admit I know little of the history. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a disputed territory and self-declared country. kwami 20:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree :) No dispute in that Noxchi Borz 20:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kwami

message: Khoikhoi Thansk for your help in editing the mistakes on my articles. Why do you consider Government of Abkhazian Autonomous Republic as "pro-Georgian"? I has abkhaz members equally as Georgian. Secondly, it has been recognized internationally (please see above) as legitimate Government of Abkhazia. That web site title if Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia and as you know the region was recognized as such. The government is also composed of Armenians and Greeks. They were democratically elected in Abkhazia during the pre-war elections were both ethnic groups took part in the elections. You  should maintain NPOV and call current "de facto" Abkhaz separatist government as Pro-Russian government, and there are tons of sources to prove that accurate. Regards, LD Noxchi Borz 20:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmmm. How about "gov't in exile"? --Khoikhoi 20:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Its up to you Khoi :) I just wanted to say that we should call things by their official name (recognized and so on). Nobody anywhere has labelled that government as "pro-georgian." Actually many sources have labelled separatist government as pro Russian :) Noxchi Borz 20:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I'll go with "in exile" because I guess it's better than "pro-Georgian". Cheers, Khoikhoi 20:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Khoi :) BTW did you name yourself after Daghestani village? or im confusing something? Do you know meaning of my nick?  Noxchi Borz 21:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Naw, the Khoikhoi were a South African ethnic group, they were cousins of the Bushmen. Actually, I have no idea where you got your nickname from. Please tell me more. :) --Khoikhoi 21:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Noxchi Borz (in Chechen) means Wolf :) Noxchi Borz 22:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, from the old coat of arms, right? --Khoikhoi 00:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Correct :) Noxchi Borz 15:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "pro-georgian" govenment

message: Im sorry Khoi but the name separatist is not a POV. This is how the Abkhaz cause is described almost everywhere, a separatist one. To say its not is a POV indeed and does not reflect or respect NPOV. Please site for me couple of sources where there is no mention of that. I removed the "so called" as i agree with you on that, but please don’t violate or temper the reality and proper names for this topic. Im not Pro Georgian POV pusher. On contrary, i try to bring out NPOV as maximum on this article which has tons of problems. Please read Abkhazia articles in different languages, almost all of them are same and reflect NPOV. However, not this english article which is heavily manipulated by pro separatist sympathizers, im sorry Khoi but its a fact. Therefore you need to explore more sources on this topic and expand your understanding of separatism vs de-jure vs de-facto.  Nobody recognized that government and even the 80% of Abkhazia's population did not participate in those elections or has agreed that they were legal. How can you call it De facto government if you don’t indicate that they are separatist wing of the Abkhaz politics? Before editing, gather more sources, we can only co-operate and help eachother. This way we have true NPOV success on Abkhazia. Lets work together Khoi Noxchi Borz 19:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Separatist govenment