Talk:Brass monkey (colloquialism)

message: A brass monkey was the rack for storing canon balls, it has nothing to do with body parts.
This is simply not true, what's the appropriate tag?  According to , this is an urban legend.  Does stuff like this go up for vfd?  The legend itself isn't notable enough for its own page...  perhaps I have answered my own question there.  I'll put in a vfd tag in a little bit if there's no compelling reason not to. - Chairboy 03:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

message: This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 02:24, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote for Deletion

message: I removed the following claim, as its author did not understand the relative coefficients of linear expansion and contraction of different metals (iron vs. brass), which notion gave rise to this folk etymology.
: # The physics simply do not stand up to scrutiny.  All of the balls would contract equally, and the contraction of both balls and plate over the range of temperatures involved would not be particularly large.  The effect claimed possibly could be reproduced under laboratory conditions with objects engineered to a high precision for this purpose, but it is unlikely it would ever have occurred in real life aboard a warship.
I have seen this claim made.  Can you produce detailed calculations? PatGallacher 16:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Physics

message: • Some additional mention of discredit or de-mystification of cannon balls and brass monkeys can be found in the archived U.S. Naval History FAQ regarding this specific topic.  Specifically, it is that the usage of "freezing of brass monkey" and releasing cannon balls onto the deck is mostly Nautical myth among sailors, seamen, Marines et. al.  Nick mentions that brass would freeze under conditions, or rather cannon balls would likely freeze onto the brass.  (Not trying to attack or discredit Nick in anyway, just historical documentations as proposed by the U.S. Navy. 
As a disclaimer, IMHO, first hand experience (Nick) is much more accurate than historical accounts as recorded by third party researchers.) That having been said... The Naval FAQ proposes that in part, the term may have been coined as a result of nautical myth. The FAQ response continues to recite that tradition held that, not the brass monkey (which I always held to be true), but rather the cannon balls themselves contracted at a faster rate than brass, thus making it possible for the cannon balls to roll out of the "brass-monkey".  Anyway, it's a proposed theory.  I'm including the U.S. Navy's URL: 
History.Navy.Mil
155.98.242.152 15:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whilst on a tour of the Palace of Westminster some years ago, the guide pointed out a painting depicting a ship in the Napoleonic Wars...and if I remember correctly, a brass monkey with canon balls on the deck.  Darkieboy236 (talk) 00:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

text: My father, who was a Canadian naval officer, told me circa 1970 that this thing holding the cannon balls is called a brass monkey, ; if that's wrong, what's this thing called? i think you're just having trouble finding sources -- 135.23.66.249 (talk) 07:52, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd think anyone trying to insert an unsourced claim into the article would be the one who needs to find sources, not those trying to skeptically analyze the veracity of such claims.73.154.104.67 (talk) 12:57, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Nautical History regarding brass monkey

message: I really find the layout of this article most peculiar. Cannonballs actually has a heading, even though purely speculative, and under that heading are all the known examples of early referance to the phrase, which plainly  have no reference to canonballs. 
--Amandajm 06:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Blinking brass monkeys!

message: I had rewritten the intro before I looked up Quinion. I presumed that he was a fairly minor citation in this subject, since his name was creditted beneath those "Snopes" who said (according to what is written here but i haven't checked yet) that they didn't know. 
OK! Quinion was quoted as saying the monkey was "something solid and inert". 
Solid and inert, but what? The Wiki editor who quoted Quinion leaves out what Quinion most importantly said- "Three Wise Monkeys". 
Let me repeat-  Quinion, who appears to be the only real expert here said, of the Three Wise Monkeys (commonly cast in brass as I have written in the article), "It’s more than likely the term came from them, as an image of something solid and inert that could only be affected by extremes." 
So how did we manage to lose that crucial piece of information, and instead quote "Snopes" who don't know what a brass monkey is. 
--Amandajm 08:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: quoting Quinion

message: The term "monkey" has a number of uses in nautical terminology, as follows: 
* "monkey" —
** a small coastal trading vessel of the 16th century and 17th century, single masted with a square sail
** a small wooden cask in which grog was carried after issue from a grog-tub to the seamen's messes in the Royal Navy
** a type of marine steam reciprocating engine where two engines were used together in tandem on the same propeller shaft
** a sailor whose job involved climbing and moving swiftly (which usage dates from 1858)
** a kind of gun or cannon (which usage dates from 1650)
* "monkey boat" — a narrow vessel used on canals (also dates from 1858).
* "monkey gaff" — a small gaff on large merchant vessels.
* "monkey jacket" — a close fitting jacket worn by sailors
* "monkey fist" — the end of a line when tied into a knot or ball, used to give weight to the line for heaving (still in use today)
* "monkey spars" — small masts and yards on vessels used for the "instruction and exercise of boys" 
* "monkey pump" — a straw used to suck the liquid from a small hole in a cask
* "monkey block" — a block used in the rigging of sailing ships
* "monkey island" — a ship's upper bridge
* "monkey drill" — calisthenics by naval personnel (which usage dates from 1895)
* "monkey march" — close order march by US Marine Corps personnel (which usage dates from 1952)
* "monkey tail" — a short hand spike, use to aim a carronade
* "powder monkey" — a boy who on a warship carried gun powder from the magazine to the cannon and performed other ordnance duties (which usage dates from 1682).
--Amandajm 08:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nautical terminology

message: Most of the information was here already. but..
The article has been re-structured so that it moves from what we do know to what is speculated, rather than the other way around. It moves from the opinion of the expert, to the theories which the expert rejects, rather than the other way around. 
Th article now talks about what a "real" brass monkey is, and proposes, in agreement with an expert, that it is the source of the expression. It quotes known uses of the expression "brass monkey" as having intrinsic value to the subject and its definition, not simply in order to refute an idea rejected both by the article and the expert being quoted. 
It gives validity to the opinion of an expert who knows, rather than quoting a source that say it doesn't know. 
I have removed tags that say "original research" and replaced them with tags saying "citation needed". There is a difference! 
--Amandajm 09:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed this with a reference to the US Navy that cites the story, then refutes it. --Amandajm 10:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Naval vessels are of course noted for their carrying of extensive decorative equipment. Photos or WP:RS please, otherwise it's still hearsay. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: New direction

message: A monkey is a cannon. A monkey made of gunmetal is a brass monkey. When cold the iron cannon balls wouldn't fit in the cannon. They'd be "off" the cannon in the same way a child might be "off" his food. => The cold froze the balls off the brass monkey.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.218.215.40 (talk) 23:59, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: The navy explained this already

message: What is the source for the theory about the tray and the cannonballs? It needs to be turned into an inline cite, or else have the source quoted directly in the text. --Amandajm 08:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed this with a reference to the US Navy that cites the story, then refutes it. --Amandajm 10:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Naval vessels are of course noted for their carrying of extensive decorative equipment. Photos or WP:RS please, otherwise it's still hearsay. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: citation needed

message: The assumption that a tray with the cannonballs would be useless while a ship was underway is correct. However, the trays were present and used ONLY while the ship was at anchor in port. It apparently was used to decorate the deck. There are pictures of U.S. ships of the period in ports with these devices present. Thus the refutation by the U.S. Navy that these trays wouldn't be used is true only for ships under way, not in port.
: Naval vessels are of course noted for their carrying of extensive decorative equipment. Photos or WP:RS please, otherwise it's still hearsay. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: False assumption about the tray and cannonballs

message: 'The Ivory Trail, by Talbot Mundy (1919) has "He has the gall of a brass monkey"'
This is not the same usage and there is no reason to suspect it is related to the colloquial expression thus it shouldn't be in this article. TristanDC (talk) 03:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early recorded uses of the expression 

message: (Was/Is a "brass monkey" not meant to describe the ornamental brass fire surround? that had balls on either end... hence the expression "cold enough to freese the balls off of a brass monkey" and the irony being that it sat in front of a fire place? - 78.86.116.52
: (moved from article page Andy Dingley (talk) 10:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fire surrounds 

message: I remember this basis (added today) from discussions regarding marine and mechanical engineering where I received my engineering degree in the 1960's.  After receiving an email from a friend relaying the cannon ball myth, I researched and discovered this nautical basis had not been presented. 
I remember the expression as "...iron balls..."
Monkey used as an adjustable support was difficult to find but can be seen at:
http://www.squidsicle.com/?p=22 and http://www.monkeyarms.com/  Typically it would refer to a wall mounted arm like a shelf support but with adjustments possible.  Today this would be similar to a wall mount for positioning a fan or surveillance camera.  Traditionally it was used to describe positioning holders for mechanical work.
KeepItSimpleEngineer (talk) 19:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nautical Basis 

message: The statement "All of these variations imply that an actual monkey is the subject of the metaphor." makes no sense at all.  Weather that could freeze the ball off of a living monkey pales in comparison to weather that could freeze the balls off of a brass monkey, which is clearly oblivious to weather.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael.Urban (talk • contribs) 14:00, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You may have a point. That sentence assumes that the reader has already read the Supposed etymology section and I suspect that at some point in the articles history the section ordering was different. The point being that a brass monkey cannot be a metal tray because a metal tray does not have a tail, throat, nose, ears, nor whiskers. Nick Austin (talk) 10:57, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brass Monkey is not a metaphor for a real monkey 

message: I have long heard that the derivation of the saying is from the traditional sign for a pawnbroker, three gold balls, also known as a "brass monkey". Problem is I cannot find any references to this online. Can anyone shed any light on this or is it an urban myth? – ukexpat (talk) 19:45, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wikipedia article about pawnbrokers explains the sign. Nick Austin (talk) 14:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it explains the sign, but it says nothing about what appears to be an urban myth that the sign is referred to a "brass monkey" and hence the derivation of the subject of this article. – ukexpat (talk) 17:00, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pawnbroker's sign 

message: early recorded uses of the expression:
I didn't look through all the unnumbered (uncited) references, but this section looks like someone just searched google books and pasted the results they found...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.103.113.95 (talk) 07:36, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  original research 

message: How exactly is Queensland, Australia a place known for "brass monkey weather", when the latter normally refers to extremely cold conditions? Coconutporkpie (talk) 03:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo caption 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: The section "The story goes that cannonballs ... " to "... very cold to the touch in cold weather." is taken word for word from here, "What is the origin of the term 'brass monkey'?" from Oxford Dictionaries. There is absolutely nothing to show that Oxford Dictionaries got it from Wikipedia. I am therefore removing the whole section in good faith with a note explaining reason.--Terry Patterson (talk) 10:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarism