Talk:Ateshgah of Baku

message: Dear Sirs!
If it is possible, please, add this info in  “Hindu or Zoroastrian?” section:
______
In “Ashkharatsuyts” (VII century) in the province Paytakaran was mentioned toponym “Yotnporakyan Bagink” (“Place with seven worshiped holes”)«Армянская География VII века по Р.Х (приписывавшаяся Моисею Хоренскому)» / Перевод и подготовка издания К. П. Патканова. — СПб., 1877. Thousand years later “seven holes with eternal fires” were mentioned by German traveler Engelbert Kämpfer who visited Surakhany in 1683Amoenitatum exoticarum politico-physico-medicarum fasciculi v, quibus continentur variae relationes, observationes & descriptiones rerum Persicarum & ulterioris Asiae, multâ attentione, in peregrinationibus per universum Orientum, collecta, ab auctore Engelberto Kaempfero. Lemgoviae, Typis & impensis H.W. Meyeri, 1712...
“Surakhany” in Tati (language of Surakhany, close to Persian) means “hole with the fountain”. In other words, “Yotnporakyan Bagink” and “Surakhany” is practically calques.
Armenian historian Ghevond (VIII century), describing the invasion of the Khazars in the Caucasian Albania in 730, mentioned area “Atshi-Baguan”Histoire des guerres et des conquetes des Arabes en Armenie, par l’eminent Ghevond, vardabet armenien, ecrivain du huitieme siecle. Sarah Ashurbeyli notes that the “Atsh” is distorted “Atesh” (“fire”) and “Atshi-Baguan” means “Fires of Baguan” and that we are talking about Baku. Word “Baguan” comes from the word “Baga” which means “God” in Old Persian С. Ашурбейли. «История города Баку: период средневековья». Изд. Абилов, Зейналов и братья, 2006.
In general, eternal flames of Apsheron peninsula were worshiped not later Sassanian times.
Estakhri (X century) mentioned that not far from Baku (i.e., on the Apsheron Peninsula) lived fire worshippersAbu Ishaq Ibrahim ibn Muhammad al-Farisi al Istakhri. Ketāb al-masālek wa’l-mamālek. This was confirmed by Movses Daskhurantsi in his reference of the province of Bhagavan (“Fields of the Gods” i.e., “Fire Gods”)History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci. Translated by C. J. F. Dowsett. London, 1961.
In XVIII century Atashgah was visited by Zoroastrian. This confirms the Persian handwriting Naskh inscription over the entrance aperture of one of the cells, which speaks about the visit of Zoroastrians from Isfahan:
Transliteration of Persian inscription:
ātaši saf kešide hamčon dak  
 jey be vāni reside tā bādak 
 
 sāl-e nav-e nozl mobārak bād goft  
 xāne šod ru *sombole sane-ye hazār-o-sad-o-panjāh-o-haštom 
TranslationНейматова М. С.Корпус эпиграфических памятников Азербайджана, т. I, Баку, Елм, 1991:
Fire worshippers stand in line, like naked (trees?) 
Isfahani came from Vani to Badak 
"Blessed the lavish New Year", he said 
The house was built in the month of Ear in 1158nd year. 
The 1158 year corresponds to 1745 AD. Van is implied as the Shirvan region or Bhagavan. The word Badak is a diminutive of Bad-e Kube. (The name of Baku in the sources of the XVII and XVIII centuries was Bad-e Kube). At the end of the reference is the constellation of Sombole /Virgo (August-September). In the name of the month the master mistakenly shifted the “l” and “h” at the end of the word. According to Zoroastrian calendar Qadimi New Year in 1745 AD was in August.
Interesting information about Zoroastrian from Baku mentioned by D. Shapiro in “A Karaite from Wolhynia meets a Zoroastrian from Baku”Dan Shapira, “A Karaite from Wolhynia Meets a Zoroastrian from Baku,” in Iran and the Caucasus, Vol. 5, No. 1, 2001, pp. 105-106. Avraham Firkowicz, a Karaite collector, wrote about his meeting in Darband in 1840 with fireworshiper from Baku. Russian officer introduced the fireworshipper to Firkowicz as the “Bramin”. Firkowicz asked him “Why do you worship fire?” Fireworshiper replied that they do not worship fire at all, but the Creator, which is not a person, but rather a “matter” (abstraction) called Q’rţ’, and symbolized by fire. Term Q’rţ’ (“kirdar”) means in Pahlavi and Zoroastrian Persian “one who does”, “creator”.
--Farroukh (talk) 22:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Some evidences about fire temple of Baku as a Zoroastrian atashkade

message: I will more discussion, references and some photographs here.
Also we need a page on Hindu temples of Kabul.
== is this a Hindu temple? ==No its not a Hindu temple.Snaskrit is an old language among aryans .there are still many words in modern persian language that have the sanskrit root.I see in this article the majir role of aryan tribe in ioranian platu has been ignored.
?--Dangerous-Boy 18:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so are you a parsi? ok, i'll take your word for it for now ;) Khosrow II 16:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I said i'd take your word for it, you can correct the article. :) so i assume you are a parsi?Khosrow II 16:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Historical docs prove it was a Mandir.Bakaman Bakatalk 04:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Have to say, made my way here by chance and I'm very surprised to find that this template contains inscriptions from the Adi Granth (see )! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of the Hindu traders were from Lahore and Multan so many of our Sikh brethren must have came as well.Bakaman Bakatalk 03:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow 

message: I have uploaded this book onto Wikisource: . The pages of text are being uploaded now. Also, some images from this book have already been uploaded to Commons. see :File:At the Tomb of Omar Khayyam - by Jay Hambidge.jpg.
--John Vandenberg (chat) 06:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  From Constantinople to the home of Omar Khayyam 

message: The term Atashgah means a fire temple. There were numerous fire temples in central Asia. The problem with term Atashgah museum is that while it would be appropriate locally, where there is only one such structure; it is inappropriate for international usage.
I suggest that the name be reverted back to "Fire Temple of Baku", which is what I had used when I had started the article 
Practically protected all historical structures are museums, Versailles to Forbidden City. However they should be referred by the original names. The term museum should be used for institutions that are known mainly for collections and not for the site/structure.--ISKapoor (talk) 00:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the local name should be given preference. In Azerbaijan it is called Atashgah, and is currently a museum. Fire Temple is a general description, that fits any such structure. I think the present name, Atashgah of Baku, is good.  Grandmaster (talk) 06:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Name change to Atashgah museum is inappropriate

message: First of all It was more nice if fullstop did not call the other's arguments as dumb etc... Secondly I should ask the Indian editors, does any Hindu temple in India itself has a name such as Atashgah? No. It is a Persian name. And to Iskappor. I do not know why Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are linked. Though it is certain that Aryan tribes'religion in India has brought elements to the already existing Indian/ Dravidian religion, even the Aryan part of this religion is nothing similar to the Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism is a monotehistic religion, and Zoroastrianis are not fire worshippers. Fire= Azer is thought as holy. Still you hear this Light/ warm = Good vs. Dark/Cold = Bad duality in the post-Zoroastrian  *greater( Iranian litterature. Hinus on the other hand worship idols, many of them Human alike but some with animal elements (ganesha). Ok nevermind, still the Aryan element of Hinduism, like that of any other pagan Indo-European religion (e.g. the Greek and Roman Pantheon) would qualify as Divyasni while Zorooastrian is  a Mazdayasni religion.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  follow up 

message: I think elshan's edits were correct. Ramana has nothing to do with either Zoroastrianism or Hinduism. The name Ramana however reminded Hindu's to Rama and they jumped in to say oh oh another evidence of Hinduism. And funny that they accuse us of original research., What a funny world. I also do not know the connection to Khynalugh. Any idea? Is yanar dagh there?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Elshan's edit are indeed valid. The mere closeness of the name "Ramana" to "Rama" is not any reason to consider Ramana to be Hindu. This is as absurd as supposing that anything related to fire is Zoroastrian, and as stupid as supposing that everyone who disagrees with you is a Hindu. -- Fullstop (talk) 14:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Those who put the link of Ramana to this, tried to use the imagination of the readers. Oh yes, Ramana Maharishi. Does it make you remember something?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elshan's edits 

message: Look at them and tell me DO YOU SEE THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THEM AND THAT OF BAKU?
Kheyr Abad
http://www.kb-tebyan.ir/upload/pol-va-atashkadeh-kheirabad.jpg
(you see it is not that big, but still similar to the other Atashgahs, inclusive that of Baku).
Naghshe Rostam
http://www.bestirantravel.com/images/sights/shiraz/atashkadeh2.jpg
Ilam
http://www.ariarman.com/images/Atashkadeh_4taghi_darehshahr_Ilam.jpg
Small and simple.
Also look at these bows in Takhte Soleyman = AzarGoshnasp in Iranian Azerbaijan. One of the most important fire temples in the Iranian History
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_IYThAYMAF8E/SE-iLA5rsqI/AAAAAAAABPs/yi7aefNLH_U/s512/P1050006.JPG
http://www.irpedia.com/upload/iblock/bf5/bf59265bf5cf1270951eaf4bdc009fdb.jpg
Also here and in Atashgah of Esfahan , there existed a complex more than only a 4tagh! (Esfahan's Arashgah is not a Chartagh any way). 
http://www.twip.org/photo/middle-east/iran/photo-14810-23-07-08-07-33-15.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41468000/jpg/_41468182_06570004.jpg
More pictures of Takhte Soleyman = Azargoshnasp at 
cais-soas.com/CAIS/virtual_museum/sasanian/Sites/shiz.htm
--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  more pictures from other Atashgahs 

message: I think the problems can be solved this way. Instead claiming something as a fact and then refer to the sources, it should be clearly mentioned in the text that the Sources (X, or Y) says this, and the local tradition says this. This way no one suggests that the statements are universally accepted, but are according to the mentioned sources. Yet the sources are mentioned. The problem of interpretation is solved this way. This means in concrete Jackson says this)literally cited), Locals say this, historical Iranian and republic of Azerbaijani say this Literally cited.  Having said that I am saoory to see that Fullstoop and the Hindu editors do not contribute onsolving the problem and come to a consensus which reflects any thing short of their own POV. Ok this is my proposal and sounds fair I hope. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I hope that Fullstop and Hindu/Indian editors react by tomorrow.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  These parts are problematic:
Inscriptions in the temple in Sanskrit (in Nagari Devanagari script) and Punjabi (in Gurmukhi script) identify the sanctity as a place of Hindu and Sikh worship.[4] These inscriptions date from Samvat 1725 to Samvat 1873,[4] which though unambiguous references to the Hindu calendar, cannot be precisely dated since there is more than one Samvat calendar. Samvat 1725 could thus be either c. 1646 CE or c. 1782 CE. However, "local records say that it was built by a prominent Hindu traders community living in Baku and its construction coincided with the fall of the dynasty of Shirwanshahs and annexation by Russian Empire following Russo-Iranian war [of 1722-1723]."[5]
  Too much interpretations
and 
(in common usage, 'Gebr' is synonymous with kafir, that is, a non-Muslim).
 Again gabr is a deregatory word for Zoroastrians.
The local legend should be renamed as the local account and Also the Persian inscription should be mentioned. 
Also this stamenet should better be dropped "but there is no evidence to suggest that this may have once been so. The use of natural gas is not in accord with Zoroastrian ritual use.[citation needed" --Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I assume you are Ok with it. I am going to edit this article soon. A New Year's look. Chronology should be corrected. Unsources Hindu claims and interpretations will be removed and Dehkhoda source will be added.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You will make your proposal here first. -- Fullstop (talk) 14:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And also put fact tags against any claims and interpretations you think need sources. Meowy 21:20, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal 

message: The image added by User:DerWolF depicting Zoroastrian fire worshipers is a dramatic painting, but it is described as his "own work."  As one individual's imaginary scene, it seems to me it has little or no reference value here.  Moreover, since the article indicates that it is doubtful that the temple ever was used by Zoroastrians, the image is really misleading.  Ecphora (talk) 14:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I deleted the image, which recently was re-captioned (correctly) "artist's conception of possible Zoroastrian traditions" for the above reasons. Ecphora (talk) 13:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zoroastrian worshipers image? 

message: I thought his might be useful information: Azerbaijan allocates 1 million AZN for protection of Ateshgah temple preserve Baku87 (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  State protection 

message: The hindu fundamentalist are here again? I think after long struggle we came to a consenus, that you Hindu's again single handedly violated it.  Atashgah is a zoroastrian structure. It was once usurped by Hindu and Sikh traders. ShirvanShah did not join Russia in the 18th century. Your Samvats are not important to us, nor are youLord xxxxji. All your myths are only important to you. Why don't you get it? Baku is not part of the Indian wordl. It is part of Iranian world. Whether you remove your nonsense, or I will cleanse the article from them.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:06, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Babkexorramdin, what made you so angry about Hinduism? I see you acting like the Persian man in a good but fast manner. There is indeed a high possibility of Hindu relation to that thing. We should keep Wikipedia neutral. Xashaiar (talk) 14:42, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It made me angry that they singflehandely violated consensus. I  do not get your joke aboiut the angry and fast Persian man. The article is not neytral this way--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course you did not get! May I ask you please, explain to me why you think there should be no mention of Hinduism? Can you bring up some RS that convince me that "Hindu relationship" is academically refuted? Xashaiar (talk) 14:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  the problem is that wikipedia relies on secondary sources and not on logics. Inidans have published and manipulated a large canon of nonsense to prove they are cool and they are right everywhere. All their sources are biased. Moreover the fact that a Zoroastrian priest from India says that their prayerhouses look different does not say anything. Of course Zoroastrian prayerhouses of different dates and locations differ. Moreover I do say that Hindus and sikhs have once usurped this Atashgah, but as locals belive, and as their tradtions say as well as the name and architectural style are convincing facts that this building once served as a Zorooastrian xonstruction. I have informed about it from people who are very well informed about the republic of Azerbaijan's cultural heritage. They say the soviet authorities said that the building was visited by Indians and not Hindus. Indians can be anything., There are even Parsi zoroastrians from India. I do remember once I read a book about Baku published in the Soviet Union and it identified the temple as an old Zoroastrian atshgah which was used in the 19th (?) century by Indians. Moreover these Hindu fanatics here are so poorly educated that they call the Russian Persian expeditions of the 18th century as Russo-Persian wars and they claim that Shirvanshahs joined Russia at that date. Everyone knows that this is pure BS> In fact Russians did enter Iranian territory in the Caucasus and Caspian coast of today's Iran after Afghans attacked Iran, but Nader Shah retook the area back. moreover during the Zand era malmanagement and internal crisi Russia again posed some advances on the Iranian territory which was not finalized. The fact is that Shirvanb and Baku seprated from Iran by the treay of Gulistan and not earlier. Shirvanshahan on the other hand were subdued by the safavids already in the 16th century. This much for the Indian nationalists' poor level of knowledge. Moreover they calaim that gah is an Azerbaijani and Hindustani suffix. Again nonsense, if Hindustani's have a few words with suffix -gah this only means that they have borrowed them from persian. Every amatuer linguist also knows that the suffix -gah is Persian and not Indian. Having said that I urge you not to take the Indian extremists'site as their conduct is very disturbing--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:55, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: the last version is fine. But your revert of other page was reverted, because your revision gives false info. 14:26, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hindu assualt 

message: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dabstar (talk • contribs) 15:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for new image with fire burning 

message: There was some POV pushing by Xashaiar, who without consensus removed several sources. He also changed the headline without any discussion.  and . This kind of changes is unacceptable. Neftchi (talk) 17:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats correct, you change to your POV is unacceptable. Wikipedia cares only about scholarly views and not "any statement in a book". Please read wp:undue.Xashaiar (talk) 17:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

text: Also read Ateshgah_of_Baku#Examination_by_Zoroastrian_priests which explains why the temple is Hindu related. It is unclear why you think following the majority of sources is POV pushing. In wikipedia it is understood and agreed by all that giving "tiny folk and non-academic views" a weight is POV pushing. Xashaiar (talk) 17:39, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV pushing 

message: This is clearly NOT a Hindu Temple but rather a Zoroastrian Fire Temple. First of all, this area was a part of Iran (Persia) for thousands of years. Secondly, I do not think it is the Hindus which are trying to claim so - I think it's a pocket of people from the Republic of Azerbaijan who want to undermine Iranian history/culture and Persian influence over the modern territories of the Azerbaijan country.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.163.64 (talk) 01:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes that is clearly POV of scholars. I understand your concerns about removal of Iranian culture from the memories of residents of that part of the world, but scholarly view is: "Atashgah [sic] of Baku" was Hindu. Please read the article and not only the lead. Thanks. Xashaiar (talk) 10:18, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excuse me 

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thread_title: File:Atesgah.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
::#It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
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Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: One section of this article says that "It was abandoned after 1883[citation needed] when oil and gas plants were established in the vicinity, ending the flow of natural gas to the temple and extinguishing the holy fire."
A later section reads "...heavy exploitation of the natural gas reserves in the area during Soviet rule resulted in the flame going out in 1969." This one cites as its source a review of a UK television documentary.
Only one can be accurate.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cockeyed (talk • contribs) 21:58, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  When did the gas run out - 1883 or 1969? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Let me provide a part of the text.
||:|| ६०|| ओं स्वस्ति श्री नरपति विक्रमादित राज साके ||
श्री ज्वालाजी निमत दरवाजा बणाया: 
अतीकेचनगिर सन्यासी रामदहावासी कोटेश्वर महादेवका || 
... असोज वदी ८ सम्वत् १८६६|| 
The gate of Jwalaji was constructed by Monk Atikechangir of the Koteshwar Mahadeva temple of Ramdaha, on Asoj Vadi 8 of Samvat 1866 (1809 AD) according to the chronology of king Vikramaditya.
The language is Hindi, but includes a shloka in Sanskrit.
I will provide the rest soon. Malaiya (talk) 03:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: The text of samvat 1866 inscription

message: Much of this article should be deleted or re-attributed to modern sources. See WP:HISTRS and WP:RAJ, both of which are widely accepted. - Sitush (talk) 14:04, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable sources