Talk:Pickup artist/Archive 1

message: I'd like to remove these from the opening paragraph. The community as a whole isn't really in to that so much any more - it's like having 'peacocking' up there - and they're mentioned elsewhere. Of the five or six notables we have listed, only RJ promotes this. On the other hand, that's how the community got started. SecondSight, and DutchSeduction - I'd like your input, cheers WoodenBuddha 09:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they should be mentioned somewhere, though I guess they don't have to be in the opening paragraph.  Though most PUAs use bits of NLP without knowing it; concepts like "state control" and "frame control/reframing" come from NLP, as far as I know. --SecondSight 19:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NLP and hypnosis 

message: I've split the guru pages in to a navigation template. I consider this a Good Thing. We could probably start to do this with concepts in the community. How far do we want to go here? We also need to be careful not to break any copyrights... I'm particularly pleased with my work so far on the Mystery Method page - I think it gives a great over view without giving too much away. But do we want to start splitting out sections on say Peacocking, Negging, Weasel Words, Cocky and Funny, etc? Any thoughts?
WoodenBuddha 12:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should have a section outlining some of the various concepts.  There is info on many of them in the news articles already referenced.  If it gets too long, we can always make a "Concepts of the Seduction Community" page or something like that. --SecondSight 19:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Developing Concepts 

message: <article reproduction snipped, since now on main page> -Splashtalk 00:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FastSeduction.com is mentioned multiple times because I needed to cite it as a source.  If we can find other sources that say the same thing (like you did with the Lair List), then we can use those instead. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article rewritten

message: some background info, such as a copy of the original 'layguide' and also descriptions of some to the techniques that are mentioned but not described in 'the game'(such as october man). Streamless 13:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I've started the History of the Seduction Community section, which mentions Ross Jeffries, Mystery, and David DeAngelo.  This section is short for now, because I've had trouble finding documentation for the history of the community in reliable sources.  If anyone can find such sources, then let me know. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestions 

message: I've moved this to the new citation method.  I know that it's a mess right now, but my browser is a monkey typing while listening to the server through a can and a string.  I'm going to fix-fy the links (per the now-hidden but previously oddly duplicated list of external links) pretty soon.  That may mean "soon" in geological time-scales, but regardless. - brenneman{L}  05:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought a good deal about it prior to doing so, but it was intentional.  I know that we assume good faith and all, but (as you noted on his talk) his contributions looked, well, spammy.  I've seen before a combination of internal and external spam like that that leads to other internal articles with external links... see it's confusing just to say, isn't it?  Anyway, I thought that the cost of removing them was small enough that I went ahead. - brenneman{L}  07:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnote method (e.g. a mess) 

message: I would like to hold off on mentioning commercial seduction products and gurus for now.  As I said above, I do believe that the page will eventually have to mention the gurus, products, and methods, because they are an important component of the genesis and history of the seduction community.  When the page discusses the commercial aspects of the community, it will need to place them in context, so it is clear to other editors that mentioning these commercial aspects isn't just an attempt to spam. --SecondSight 07:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I have included mention to some of the commercial seduction gurus.  If anyone has any objections, then discussion is welcome. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mentioning commercial seduction products and gurus 

message: This article was voted for deletion not long ago because the subject was considered "non-notable."  (Note: While the massive number of pages devoted to the "Pokemon" community is!)
The vote for deletion was non-conclusive, but the article was deleted anyway.  Strongly suggest pro-actively putting the article up for vote again.  Note that only the votes of registered users with considerable history on Wikipedia will be counted.  Good luck. DutchSeduction
:I believe that the previous article was considered "non-notable" simply because so many users were unaware of the massive media coverage that the community has received.  I don't think anyone can serious argue that the community is not notable at this point.  Btw, thanks for the list of media references one your talk page; it was very helpful. --SecondSight 04:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Earlier Vote for Deletion 

message: I've added the clean-up tag, because I think that the article looks a bit 'dense'. Sorry to be so vague on this, but I can't draw the exact problems with it out of my unconcious.
Besides, with the wealth of links, it should be easily extended.
By the way, I've added the title at the top of the first discussion, to bring the contents box further up.-- Sasuke Sarutobi 18:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, if you can be more specific on the exact problems you see with the page, then let us know.  I'm slowly extending the article. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean-up tag 

message: I have put discussion of commercialization into its own section.  I agree with what is written so far, but it needs sources (hence the citation needed tags).  Also, it sounds a bit POV.  For example, "Separating reliable sources of information from the ineffective ones has become more difficult for newcomers to the scene" sounds POV because some people may not agree that any seduction information is reliable or effective in the first place, and others might think that reliable seduction information is easy to find.  "The original spirit of the community is, however, a non-commercial one where brother helps brother and secret information is still passed around from hand to hand" also sounds POV.  I personally AGREE with these claims, but we either need to (a) rephrase them in a way to make them NPOV, and/or (b) find a source that makes the same claims, and cite them. --SecondSight 00:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commercialization of the Seduction Community 

message: Everyone in the community uses the lair list that is mirrored on Bristol Lair, and administered by the RunningAPUAGroup list, as has been the case for a while. 'DutchSeduction' runs the out-of-date, recent, and in no way 'official' Lair List foundation. DutchSeduction - most of your edits seem to promote your sites. Please stop spamming the wikipedia, or I'll move to have your account terminated.
WoodenBuddha 10:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (Minor detail: I do agree with WoodenBuddha that FS.com may not be primarily about selling goods and services.  It seems to be that their primary goal is to provide free seduction info and discussion forums, and that their ads are mainly to finance the servers needed for the site's high traffic.  But that doesn't really matter: FS.com is still a commercial site, and we should favor noncommercial sites over it when possible.) --SecondSight 20:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: If it's true that the RAPG directory is not complete and is intentionally removing entries, then I think we should go with the Lair List directory, regardless of whether DutchSeduction runs it or not.  (Unless someone can show that there is a problem with LairList, like it being out of date or otherwise incomplete). --SecondSight 20:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Either (a) only LairList.com should be included, or (b) both LairList.com and FS.com lair lists should be included.  Since LairList is a nonprofit site, and the ads on it belong to the hosting service, that is an argument for including it. DutchSeduction, please come clean on exactly what your relationship to LairList.com is.  The reference list on the FAQ very much resembles the reference list from you that I used to help make the page.  Please explain.  If you have some kind of access privileges to the site, that doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be cited, but please come clean about this.  --SecondSight 20:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: From my perspective, it looks like a squabble, because I don't have all the facts.  So far, most of your claims seem to hold water in my eyes, and I am satisfied by your explanation about your connection with Lair List, which is why I have suggested that the LairList.com link stay on the page.  I added both the LairList.com link and the FS.com link to attempt a compromise between you and WoodenBuddha.  If you want to remove the FS.com Lair List link, I don't think I will try to stop you, but you will have to work that out with WoodenBuddha. --SecondSight 06:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Lair List 

message: Throwing them all in to 'See Also' on some of the pages is a suck idea. We should create a separate category that these pages can be used in, and thus a list of them. How do we decide notable vs non-notable here? We don't particularly want Ray Gordon adding himself a page - DutchSeduction has shown the dangers of self-promotion already! While those in the community have a good idea who should be mentioned, some more solid tech might be advisable - say 3+ media mentions? What are options from a technical POV? A category page?
WoodenBuddha 07:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long lists of gurus 

message: COMMENT: if the "community" is so noncommercial, why does no one disclose their incomes and why is everything they do trademarked?  Don't insult people's intelligence, and don't act like "attack marketing" is anything new, as it dates back to Ross and Don Steele at least.  The whole idea of a "community" in an industry should raise red flags for potentially anticompetitive behavior.  Why haven't the prices for any of this stuff come down despite so many miore people entering the field? --unsigned comment by 24.193.241.255 moved from article to talk page
* Nobody said that the community is noncommercial (which is why there is a section on the commercial aspects in the article!).  The community isn't completely commercial, however, because a large amount of its information is available for free.  Who acted like attack marketing is something new?  I don't know where you are getting that from.  Why haven't the prices gone down as more people enter the field?  Maybe it's because there is more demand as more people become aware of the community.  --SecondSight 01:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment posted into article