Talk:List of heads of government of Cuba

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thread_title: File:FidelCastroSmiling.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I am not sure I agree with the sentiment that the presidents should be shown on this table; for a number of reasons:
#This page is for Prime ministers, so having Presidents only confuses. Furthermore, the information for presidents, is exactly the same List of presidents of Cuba, meaning it is needless repetition.
#This page itself states "Between 1976 and 2019 (under the 1976 Constitution), the role was abolished and instead there was President of the Council of Ministers." Therefore no prime minister. Something the international media also states. Such as Cuba chooses first prime minister since 1970s and Cuba names Manuel Marrero Cruz as first prime minister since 1976.
I would argue, this means the inclusion of president on this page is confusing and needless repetition. What do you think? Skjoldbro (talk) 13:01, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to disagree with you on this. President of the Council of Ministers was de facto the same role as Prime Minister, and obviously acted instead of Prime Minister (which the article already state). The Cuban example isn't the only one - quite a few Communist states during the Cold War labeled their heads of government in the same way. So it should remain within the article. Furthermore, if we decide to remove presidents of the Council of Ministers from here, then we should also remove presidents of the Council of State from List of presidents of Cuba by the same logic, since they weren't officially titled "President of the Republic". --Sundostund (talk) 20:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, no. The list is for presidents and the president of the Council is still a president, but you can't say that a president is a prime minister. Just look at the list of prime ministers; it says e.g. that Fidel Castro was president of the Council, while serving under Fidel Castro who was president of the Council. Does that makes sense to you? Skjoldbro (talk) 13:14, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree. A president of the Council of Ministers is de facto a prime minister, the only difference is in terminology. And yes, it does makes sense to me - its quite possible that one person holds both the office of head of state and head of government simultaneously. In the country in which I was born, SFR Yugoslavia, Josip Broz Tito was both head of state and head of government between 1953 and 1963. --Sundostund (talk) 18:46, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Terminology is exactly the problem; a list of prime ministers is for prime minister and therefore can't include presidents. And sure a person can hold different offices at the same time, but this is not two different offices held by one person, this is one office held by one person. Maybe I didn't make my point clear enough; if you read the table right now, it states The president of the Council served under president of the Council. That does not make sense. I think, to avoid confusion, the page needs to change name to something like "List of heads of government of Cuba", and there needs to be a change to the table so that Presidents are listed as serving under presidents.Skjoldbro (talk) 00:29, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  A list of prime ministers can and should include presidents if they served as prime ministers (or de facto prime ministers) simultaneously. This is not one office held by one person, but two different offices - Council of Ministers and Council of State aren't one single body, obviously. And yes, the president of the Council of Ministers served under the president of the Council of State - head of government served under head of state. To me, that does make a lot of sense. In the end, I would be more than ready to support the rename of this article to "List of heads of government of Cuba", as well as List of presidents of Cuba to "List of heads of state of Cuba", as long as it means that both lists would include all of those who served as head of state and head of government of Cuba since independence in 1902. --Sundostund (talk) 02:57, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh wow, I'm a retard. I didn't see that it was two different positions. I just saw President of the Council and assumed it was the same. I guess you are right about most then, my bad. But I still think that the page name should be changed, since it at one time was called something different than prime minister. But, yeah then the list, of course, should include presidents. I don't have any feelings either way, regarding List of presidents of Cuba, if you feel like it is needed for consistency, then sure. Skjoldbro (talk) 10:03, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would never call you a retard - you are an editor with very useful contributions here, and I am sure you are a smart person in real life as well. Mistakes and false assumptions happen, and the issue we discuss here can be a tricky one. I myself follow the politics for ages now, and I guess it just seems a bit more familiar and clear to me... Anyway, I am very glad that you get my point - Council of Ministers and Council of State are two separate bodies, and many of the past Communist states have had similar organization of their political system. Actually, Cuba followed their example when it started to institutionalize its own political system, back in the 1970s. As for the renaming, as I stated above, I would be willing to support it, both here and the list of presidents, for the sake of consistency. In my opinion, it isn't a must and something really necessary, but if it would help to avoid confusion about heads of state and heads of government, then so be it. --Sundostund (talk) 19:56, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you did, it was more of a self-realisation, for failing to properly read one line. But I guess it helps my point that it could be stated more clearly. I think a name change will help with that. Skjoldbro (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, you misunderstood me - I never thought that you implied it, I just responded to your self-realisation! In my opinion, you greatly underestimated yourself. I always believed that people very rarely can see their real value themselves in an objective way, so its necessary for us to be judged in a way by others, if we want to see who we really are... As for the renaming, I am not really interested in renaming the articles myself, at least not now, so if you really find it necessary, you can go ahead as far as I'm concerned. As usual, if I see something which should be changed/improved, I will do it. --Sundostund (talk) 22:33, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  President