Talk:Khalistan movement/Archive 1

message: I attempted to make this article as non-biased as possible.  I forgot to log into my accout before making the changes listed by IP 70.27.97.188 on May 21, 2005.  In regards to the neutrality of the article, its hard to state everything with 100%fact since people look for fact in different places.  To look to the government of India as a source of information would result in extremely biased info on this matter, and their biased can be seen via their actions in the Khalistan/Blue Star conflicts in the 1980's-1990's.  I did not omit the Sikh Militant actions on purpose, such as the # of police men murdered.  But getting the exact # of law enforcement/ military forces killed would be difficult to obtain, but I assumed that it would be covered in the figures for the total # killed by the militancy in the article.  Editor bias is apparent by previous versions of this page, by stating disputed things as fact, including only GOI information, under reporting or just word play.  It is commonly held that the GOI report on most things pertaining to the conflict were highly skewed, non-reported, or made up.   It is well known that militants themselves committed crimes as well, but listing individual acts by various militant groups would be tedious and that raises the issue of whether it was the act of militants or GOI forces in their efforts to quash the insurgency.  I provided real/factual reasons as to why the punjab conflict arose, instead of just pointing the blame soley on one thing.  The reasons from the late 70's, 1980's, have somewhat been attended to, but new ones have risen in their place in the punjab.  
On previous verions of this page, Bhindranwale is shown as directly advocating for the creation of Khalistan, or at the forefront of the movement, which sadely is taken as fact.  What all western and Indian media outlets cling to is the interview he made with a CNN or BBC reporter, where they asked if he was fighting for a Khalistan, and he replied that he was not, but if the Indian governement where to give it to the SIkh's, they would not refuse it".  (He was clearly ambivalent!!)The movement for Khalistan did not begin until Operation Bluestar occured.  
VOO KAP 04:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: VOO KAP's additions to article

message: I find this article to be extremely POV, with a lot of allegations and no supporting facts. For example:
Punjab and surrounding areas was ment to be the "glow of freedom" PM Nehru had promised to the Sikhs pre-independance but in reality all promises were broken and Sikhs were beginning to feel isolated and discriminated in mainstream Indian society and politics.
In April 1986, a group of Sikh intellectuals produced a declaration of independence for Khalistan, which they sought to form as a separate Sikh nation and created a political structure and an army. They sought help from western governments (USA, UK, Canada, Europe) and the UN of recognistion of this new entity, but those cries for freedom fell on deaf ears after Air India jetliner was blown up, in the world's largest attack on a civilian aircraft. Fingers point to the culprits being either RAW Indian agents based in Canada, wanting to destroy all support for the Khalistan movement, or Sikh separatists who may have wanted to avenge the bloody massacre of Sikhs and destruction of Sikhdom's holiest shrines by the Indian Army
There seems to be a very large pro-Khalistan slant in this article. Compare Golden_Temple_Massacre to this one - the former provides a very neutral picture and all the facts. It doesn't have any propaganda from either side.
I suggest putting a "Disputed Neutrality" message on top of this article. Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 16:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added an NPOV message to the top. This article describes the action of the Indian government (most of which aren't in dispute) against the Sikh population, but barely mentions any of the militant act carried out by Sikh Sepratists. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്)
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I don't know how this article so easily defines Khalistan. Khalistan had different meaning for different people and many people had no idea for the area that they would like to become as Khalistan. Many people wanted the present Indian Punjab to become Khalistan. Others wanted the historic Punjab, which includes Pakistan Punjab, as well as Haryana and Himachal Pradesh in India. Others called the former empire of Maharaja Ranjit Singh as Khalistan. I think it accurately describes the alienation that many Sikhs felt after the anti-Sikh riots and the operation blue star. I also don't think that the reason for lack of international support of Khalistan is correct. There was little support of Khalistan cause because most people in the West did not know(and still do not know) anything about the problem in Punjab. Punjab was not a strategic location for the U.S. or Britain.(as in the case of Palestine). Punjab was regarded as a regional problem and not as an international problem. I don't think that Khalistan was just supported by a tiny minority of Sikhs. While it is true that the idea of Khalistan was initially supported only by a few extremists, the idea of Khalistan eventually gained the support of many Sikhs after the Operation Blue Star and the anti-Sikh riots. This was one of main reasons that militancy survived a long time after Operation Blue Star.
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Editor bias is rampant and some people seem to be tampering with the links on this page, as well as slowly altering/ omitting factual information every few days so that no one will notice.  I notice!!
VOO KAP 23:07, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extremely POV 

message: User:Rsdhaliw, while you have added some more information to the article, your contributions generally have a very pro-Khalistani slant. In fact, this entire article presents the Khalistan activists as an oppressed and beleaguered party. There is barely any mention of terrorist attacks against the government.
I also had to remove the following sections of text from the article. Please provide some sort of link or source justifying them, if you want them to be added. Otherwise, it's merely opinion:
:It has been established by the Punjab Human Rights Commission that mass cremations immediately followed the Operation, with no death certificates being issued, with the practice being mirrored in following years by the Punjab police and Para-military units in their war against the insurgents (Exposed by human rights activist Jaswant Singh Khalra, who's death is linked with his exposé on police encounters and torture by the Punjab police).  The Human Rights Wing (SAD) reported that over 50,000 Sikhs have been victims of this secret cremation.
Source?
:After exposing the secret cremation policy, Khalra was arrested by police on September 5, 1995, while washing his car.  Six weeks later, in late October, he was killed while still in police custody (see Police Encounter).
Source?
:While the RCMP spent 15 years and $130 million investigating the Sikh Separatist connection to both bombings, they concurrently investigated the GOA (Government of India) theory, which to date has not officially been ruled out.
Source?
:In 1994, the U.S. State Department reported that the Indian government had paid out over 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing Sikhs. 
Source?
:India claims that the idea of a nation-state called Khalistan has little support these days in Punjab, yet India refuses to hold a plebiscite on the issue.
Source? AFAIK there has been no request for one. Your addition of that last sentence is clearly POV.
:Although the exiled Khalistani leadership has publicly declared that it will liberate Khalistan by peaceful, democratic, nonviolent means, the Indian government labels all advocates of Khalistan as terrorists.
Source? Where is the "exiled Khalistani leadership" based? --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 17:15, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rsdhaliw's edits 

message: I've removed your clearly POV additions to the article. You have provided no factual basis for any of your additions. The contested excerpts are:
:The chief suspects along with Indian intelligence agencies, were
When were Indian Intelligence Agencies implicated? Can you provide any proof?
:Families of the vitcims of flight 182 and Sikhs worldwide have called for and have demanded a public enquiry to find out who was really behind the bombings but The Canadian Govt has refused, further fuelling widely held theories of the handywork of RAW (Research and Analysis Wing)of Indian Intelligence Dept in the bombing.
Any source for this? The theory of RAW being behind the bombings isn't "widely held" but it's probably "widely held" amongst conspiracy theorists and people such as yourself.
:Attacks by militants and Indian forces have dropped markedly since 1992, as Indian security forces began a policy of widescale torture, rape and shoot first ask questions later. Resulting in deaths of thousands of innocent civilians along with suspected militants reported widely by human rights organisations.
This has already been addressed in the article, and your addition does not add any new information. Furthermore, it is clearly POV.
:Julio Riberio, the former Director General of Police of Punjab, is commonly known as the "butcher of Punjab" by Sikhs. He admitted for the first time about how he and his political masters used tactics which in any case in the world would fall in the category of state sponsership of terrorism. Julio ribeiro writes with extraordinary candor in his book "bullet for bullet". In Punjab there were some persons with criminal propensities, who were known to police officers at various levels. They were approached and a few of them agreed to form groups which would move in the guise of terrorists and confront the real militants in their dens. The police did give them financial and logistical support, but their demands grew to an extent where it was impossible to satisfy them within our resources. Besides, they were very greedy people, with a criminal tendency, who began to prey on law-abiding, rich citizens on the assumption that the police were indebted to them and so would do nothing to stop them.
:One such man, recommended to Ribeiro by Gur Iqbal Singh Bhullar, a senior police officer, was a smuggler who had once been a police constable. He was reinstated and located in Patiala to search out and neutralize dreaded militants, with the permission to use force. Once he drove into Ribeiro's official residence in Chandigarh to escape a police chase after he shot down two supposed terrorists whom he had located at a bus stand on a main road in the city. Ribeiro later found out that this operative, along with the policemen who constituted his squad, had been committing robberies, not only in Punjab but also in the neighboring States. Rebeiro wanted to weed him out of the counter-insurgency setup. But before he could do anything, the operative was reportedly killed after he shot down Patiala's Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) and his subordinate in their own office.
:In his book, Ribeiro mentions several other undercover terror operations, planned by Amritsar's SSP Izhar Alam and other senior officers of the Punjab police. The book also narrates how KPS Gill, then Inspector General of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), thwarted Ribeiro's attempts to discipline the policemen who committed atrocities, by persuading the Union Home Ministry not to sanction their prosecution.
Source for all this?
:Until the Indian govt addresses these issues, along with justice for the victims of anti-sikh genocide, their is little sign of the movement for Khalistan dying out.
POV. 
--Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 05:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by [[Thetruth|User:Thetruth]] 

message: Vivin, You are giving the Indian point of view I am making it more from a Sikh point of view. You stick to editing Tamil and leave Khalistan to non-Indians, non-hindus. Because Indians, like yourself, are bound to use words like "Sikh terrorism" which is extermely offensive to All Sikhs labelling a whole group of people as terrorists is disgusting to say the least.
You have not given sources to your information either so until you do I wont either.
Regards,
thetruth
:I'm not providing any specific POV. Your edits are clearly biased and not neutral. They add no new information to the article, and they are inflammatory in nature. In addition, you haven't provided anything to substantiate any of your additions. "Sikh Terrorism" doesn't label all Sikhs as terrorists anymore than the term "male chauvinism" labels all men as chauvinists. The information I have provided, is not "mine". This information is the general consensus of almost everyone regarding the Khalistan issue (and was present in this article before I even started editing it). The burden of proof is on YOU to provide information for your additions. In addition, your infantile statement about me sticking to editing Tamil (and you got that wrong too, I'm Malayalee) clearly shows that you have no interest in having a diplomatic discussion.--Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 03:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't added any new information to this article. I have only kept it from having a very pro-Khalistani slant. This is an article about Khalistan - what it is, and how the movement came into being. It is not an article to bash India/Indians. Using the label "Sikh Terrorists" does not in any way insult ALL Sikhs. To assume so to be deliberately immature and obtuse. Palestinian Terrorists do not act in the name of Islam, they act for the Palestinian Cause. Other Muslim terrorists are called as such because they do act in the name of Islam. Timothy McVeigh cannot be called a Christian Terrorist because he never acted in the name of Christianity. The militants/terrorists behind Khalistan were acting in the name of Sikhism, with the aim to establish a Sikh state - therefore, they are Sikh terrorists. Like I said before, the term "Male Chauvinism" doesn't mean that all Males are chauvinists. Please not that after your initial edits, all I did was take out a few POV stuff. I left out your other additions of information in there. Another user, Thetruth has been adding his own unsubstantiated rhetoric. I am not biased - if that was the case, this article wouldn't be there in the first place. I still think this article has neutrality issues. The NPOV template is going to stay, and I WILL be keeping an eye on this article. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 14:23, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Vivin, I can only say that I agree with you on all counts.  Please see my message on User_talk:Sukh. Sukh 15:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sukh, I'm glad that you agree with me, and I support the issue. Biased people are blind to their own bias, and will often hurl accusations of bias at the other side. I'm trying to portray a neutral version of the events. It is true that there were many human rights abuses during the Khalistan issue - by both sides. It is also true that Sikh discontent was based on some real issues. However, there are some elements who merely want to use this article as a springboard for some India-bashing. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 16:22, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing by Vivin Paliath, 

message: I have completely rewritten the article, into what I hope, is a more accurate picture of the situation.
--Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 18:56, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete Rewrite 

message: I'm removing Sikhs in India have had a glorious history. The Sikh power in Punjab in the 19th century was unique., come on "glorious history", "unique power". - FrancisTyers 12:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some removals 

message: This page is now protected due to constant vandalism.  It isn't going anywhere until everyone's grievances are resolved. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page protected 

message: You tell me why te following paragraphs are being removed - "Current organizations and political groups in the Punjab that continue to advocate an independent Punjab include the Shiromani Akali Dal (Amritsar), the Dal Khalsa (International), the Shiromani Khalsa Dal, the Sikh Students Federation (Bittu), the Khalsa Panchayat and the Shiromani Akali Dal (International). These groups shun armed struggle and attempt to establish an independent Punjab by peaceful and democratic means.
Active militant groups that desire an independent Sikh state of Khalistan include the Babbar Khalsa (International) and the Khalistan Zindabad Force. Since May 2005, the Babbar Khalsa (International) has become quite active in the Punjab, carrying out two bombings of cinemas in Delhi."''
Possibly because you wants to deny that the movement for Khalistan started in Punjab and that is where the struggle continues to this very day?
Obviously you havent been following events in Punjab. Check all news sources from June 5th onwards when the demand for Khalistan was raised at the Akal Takth infront of a cheering crowd of 30,000 by such politial figures as Sardar Simranjit Singh Mann of the Shiromani Akali Dal (Amritsar) along with leaders of the Dal Khalsa and others. - http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050607/asp/nation/story_4836313.asp
Mann and scores of other Sikh political activist have since been arressted charged with false and laughable accusation of "sedition".
Some hope you will have of trying to silence our voices in Punjab or over the net.
Pakistan is green
:When you grow up and learn to be an adult, maybe some people will consider your points.  You're childish and your editing will simply not be accepted on Wikipedia if you're so immature.  Using phrases like "smelly Hindu dung eating ass" just goes to show how little you are in touch with Sikhism and shows your stupidity in the fact that I myself am a Sikh.
:If you want your input to be respected and if you want to create a dialogue to incorporate your changes there are three steps you can take:
:*Grow up
:*Get a user account
:*Involve yourself in a discussion
:If you cannot discuss your changes and cannot resist making blanket changes to a controversial article, your opinions and views will be ignored.  And ultimately, the current article will remain. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:30, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oye dhotee brigade...