Talk:Rajput/Archive 18

message: Can you all try to rebuild this article at Rajput/temp and Talk:Rajput/temp? I can assure you this article is not going to get unprotected until a final version of the page is settles at Rajput/temp and I know that a lot of people aren't happy with the current state of this page. I hope you can all make an article that all of you (or at least a vast majority) are happy with. It wouldn't be a bad idea just to restart the article from scratch as a group, but at least find a version of the page that you are all happy with and we can unprotect the main article. As a side note, the amount of unrelated junk arriving on this talk page is unbelievable and is clogging up the page. FireFox 12:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No I didn't. No he shouldn't. And it is different. You can edit it all you like whilst it is out of public view. It's only your fault if you can't agree on a suitable verson. FireFox 16:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: If whatever you want to reply has nothing to do with article, use his talk page. The NPA rule does not not-apply to admins, it is no different at all. If you want to risk reporting him for a personal attack, take it to the administrators noticeboard. I warn people when I see it, not when someone tells me to. FireFox 17:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: this is offtopic, DPS is referring to a sarcastical remark of mine on Zora's talkpage; the only personal attacks I pleaded guilty of were "clown" and "incompetent", which perfectly pale in comparison with the vitriolic mudslinging from the part of their addressees. I realize there are some editors here who are uninterested in a solution. I will ask the arbcom to review the matter as soon as I can spare the time. dab (ᛏ) 17:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: yawn, I was referring to the sources brought forward. stop cursing me, start citing sources. We know there were "Muslim Rajputs" at least from the time of the British Raj. If you want to insist they existed even earlier, point us to your sources. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Announcement 

message: Firefox: What is the next step of RFC?  Do I need to do anything?  I see bachman has mobilized his supporters to the fullest even scaring away some hindus.
--DPSingh 18:08, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Look. If you knew what you were doing you would read up on WP:RFC, it's all there. FireFox 18:10, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC

message: Brothers I have created small stubs for each of these clans.  Some have more info then the others.  Sisodia can you add more sisodiya gotra/shakha and also expand on them?  
Suryabandhu would you like to expand on Pundir kula?  SS/Shonan what would you like to focus on?  Digvijay can you add some more chauhan gotra and see if you like Deora page?
Also if you have more info on any other shakha/gotra have a go at it.
Does anyone know if Sumrendra is around?
 
*  Suryavanshi
** BirGoojur: Churu
*** Sikarwar: Agra
** Dogra: Jammu
** Guhilote: Chittor/Udaipur
*** Sisodia: Chittor/Udaipur
*** Ranawat
** Kachwaha: Narwar/Jaipur
*** Kalyanot
*** Rajawat
*** Shekhawat
*** Jasrotia: Jasrot
** Pundir: Pundri
** Rathore: Marwar/Kannauj/Jodhpur/Bikaner
*** Jodha 
*** Khokra
*** Kumpawat
*** Jaitawat
*** Karnot
*  Agnivanshi
** Chauhan: Ajmer
*** Deora: Sirohi
*** Hada: Hadoti/Ranathambore
*** Bhaduria: Bhadawar
*** Sonigurra: Jalore
** Solanki: Anahilawad (Patan)
*** Baghel
** Paramara, Ponwar (Parmar): Mount Abu/Dhar
** Pratihara (Parihara): Rajasthan, Kannauj
* Chandravanshi
** Bhatti: Jaisalmer
** Bundela: Orchha
** Chandela: Mahoba/Khajuraho
** Chavda: Anahilwad
** Dahia: Haryana
** Katoch: Uttarakhand
** Jhala: Jhalavad
** Jadeja: Kutch
** Banaphar: Mahoba
*** Pathania:  Uttarakhand
** Tuar: Delhi/Gwalior
Shivraj Singh 20:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, this page will probably have this dispute going on for a long time to come. Most people are not even realising, let alone acknowledging the slippery grounds on which the muslim rajput 'claim' is being made. Its a grey area to say the least.  Shiv, I really am interested in the hindi version of this page....thats my main aim, when I have the time. I would like all to add any info, hindi web site links etc. to that page too. Please make uttarakhand -> uttaranchal. I already corrected on the Rajput clans page. Ss india 11:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Clans

message: this has been going on for months now; several administrators have tried to intervene, and while they could contain the edit-war, no progress has been made. My hope is that the arbcom will be able to enforce policy more effectively than individual admins. Refer to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Rajput. dab (ᛏ) 18:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Arbitration filed

message: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rajput has been accepted. Please place evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rajput/Evidence. Proposals and comments may be placed at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rajput/Workshop. This arbitration may affect all editors of this article whether they are named in the arbitration or not. Fred Bauder 00:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitration accepted

message: Katoch are not from Uttarkhand, they are from Kangra (Royal family of Kangra is Katoch and happens to be by Nanji's family) and originally their ancestry is from Pehelgam, Kashmir.
Gorkhali 01:11, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yawn. Let's hope the arbitration can decide on a better solution for this page. --Raja 12:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Katoch

message: ===Kinship and descent groups===
Monier-Williams an outstanding Sanskritist and compiler of the standard sanskrit dictionary translates a series of terms essentially connected with descent groups and kinship relations: -  vansha, kula, jati, gotra, jana, varna.
[Page 652] M Monier-Williams A Sanskrit English Dictionary New York 1976.
Rajput claimants have to adhere to this ancient classification system of India and have to be bound by and beleive in each one of vansha, kula, jati, gotra, jana, varna.  Rules are clearly laid out and  cannot change if muslims or westerners are not happy with them.
--DPSingh 11:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sez who? Your statement comes down to "The rules exist, and you must obey them!" But who makes the rules? Who enforces them? Rules are ideas held by humans and enforced by humans, and humans often change their minds about rules. Or fight over what they are, which is what is happening here. Zora 13:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Point 3

message: Monier-Williams an outstanding Sanskritist and compiler of the standard sanskrit dictionary translates a series of terms essentially connected with descent groups and kinship relations: -  vansha, kula, jati, gotra, jana, varna.
[Page 652] M Monier-Williams A Sanskrit English Dictionary New York 1976.
Rajput claimants have to adhere to this ancient classification system of India and have to be bound by and beleive in each one of vansha, kula, jati, gotra, jana, varna.  Rules are clearly laid out and  cannot change if muslims or westerners are not happy with them.
--DPSingh 11:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sez who? Your statement comes down to "The rules exist, and you must obey them!" But who makes the rules? Who enforces them? Rules are ideas held by humans and enforced by humans, and humans often change their minds about rules. Or fight over what they are, which is what is happening here. Zora 13:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Kinship and descent groups

message: Let us discuss Ibbetson because they had been using that source for there claim to fame so far and Ibbetson states hindu rajputs ceased to be rajputs because of the practice of widow-remarriage. Muslim being rajput is a figment of there imagination.
    * Denzil Ibbetson, "Tribes and Castes of Punjab and NWFP" (1892) 
I dusted off ibbetson that someone has been citing here and on para 446 in census report of 1881 he mentions that Gaurwa rajputs of Gurgaon and Delhi, though retaining the title of Rajput in deference to the strength of caste feeling and because the change in their customs was too recent for the name to have fallen into disuse, had for all purposes of equality communion or intermarriage ceased to be rajputs since they took to Karewa or widow marriage. These muslims have been touting Ibbetson. When Gaurwa ceased to be rajputs just by changing the custom of widow-remarriage the retention of rajputi by conversion to islam is ape-shit.
--DPSingh 16:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ibbetson

message: What nation on earth could have maintained the semblance of civilization, the spirit or the customs of their forefathers, during so many centuries of overwhelming depression, but one of such singular character as the Rajpoot? . . . Rajast’han exhibits the sole example in the history of mankind, of a people withstanding every outrage barbarity could inflict, or human nature sustain, from a foe whose religion commands annihilation; and bent to the earth, yet rising buoyant from the pressure, and making calamity a whetstone to courage. . . . Not an iota of their religion or customs have they lost. . . 
James Tod knew rajput history and thus wrote this piece.  People here should do the same and STOP claiming that rajputs did not defend there religion against Islamic onslaught. And it is a pipe dream that from people whom rajputs were defending there religion, i.e Islamics, those same should be accepted as rajputs now.  
--DPSingh 13:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: James Tod on rajputs (Annals and antiquities of rajasthan)

message: DPS has today added a reference (W.W. Hunter), placed naturally at the head of the list, to the 65 works cited on the page. Dare one presume to enquire what information from the said work has been deemed condign to find place on this page? The fact that Bin Qasim's first name was Mohammed? ImpuMozhi 16:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anything wrong with the reference? Are u trying to be sarcastic?  Get into a habit of reading links on the rajput page.  [Anyway here it is]. Shivraj Singh 17:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Today's new reference

message: Rajput/temp has been stable for four days at unprotection. I presume this was Dmcdevit's rationale for unprotecting. Naturally, at unprotection, civilized editing should continue from the basis of the temp version. No more revert wars please. dab (ᛏ) 18:23, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wrong presumption. Before you make large reverts justify them on this page. Also most of your sources seem useless.  Have you read any of them? Shivraj Singh 03:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: unprotection

message: Jahangir had a Rajput mother. Can he be considered a Rajput? deeptrivia (talk) 18:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this a trick question? Shivraj Singh 18:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jahangir]] 

message: Please go to this link and vote to keep this article.  There is a group trying to get it deleted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Organization_of_Indian_kingdoms_during_invasions_and_facts_related_to_the_wars.#.5B.5BOrganization_of_Indian_kingdoms_during_invasions_and_facts_related_to_the_wars..5D.5D
Wikipedia is definetely not interested in historical accuracy but wants to push widely held beliefs as gospel.  Also go through this article while you are at it:
http://www.iskcon.com/icj/6_1/6_1klostermaier.html  
Forgot to mention what I find funny:  First there was a clamor, "all of you rajputs have a POV which no sane person supports.  Find us a reference and then we believe you.  Ok here is the book.  Nope this book is also POV!.  Why?  Oh! because it does'nt jive with my western POV!".  Note, these guys will not challenge historical veracity of hunter.
Shivraj Singh 18:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: it's on AfD because it's a pov fork. Still haven't learned to collaborate with people, have you? Your book is fine, as a reference among others, on the Islamic invasion article. Just because it was printed, you wouldn't create an article entitled Each of these groups of kingdoms, alike in the north and in the south, had a certain power of coherence to oppose to a foreign invader. Or if you would, you shouldn't be surprised if it was AfD'd. dab (ᛏ) 19:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People who push references, in an encyclopedia, without reading them should refrain from becoming preachers.  Shivraj Singh 18:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Funny stuff (Article for deletion) 

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathore#Rathore_Genealogy
Any suggestions on how to beautify the tree? Shivraj Singh 20:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rathore genealogy