Talk:Prince of Wales (1786 ship)

message: Congratulations on a DYK!  Amandajm (talk) 13:46, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Congratulations!

message: I've added a hatnote to the, ahem, disambiguation page listing all the Royal Navy ships of this name. It occurs to me that the name of this article should most likely be changed - perhaps it might be Prince of Wales (Australian ship) or something of that sort. The current name seems to me to be somewhat misleading. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This vessel must at the very least be renamed "Prince of Wales (1786 ship)". Seven other vessels named Prince of Wales sailed for the British East India Company alone. Renaming this article would free up the general name "Prince of Wales (ship)" for a disambig page for these vessels, and perhaps even more.Acad Ronin (talk) 01:52, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Move article to "Prince of Wales (1786 ship)" and create disambiguation page (Ship Index) for Prince of Wales (ship). Regards Newm30 (talk) 01:56, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Ships called 'Prince of Wales'

message: To kick off the Review, I've brought the following paragraph here for discussion:
:
The conclusion seems reasonable, but it seems to be based on an interpretation of likelihood, and not a direct secondary source. Absent a secondary source reconciling the two accounts, suggest we may have to leave both accounts in the article but without an explanation for why they differ. Other views welcome. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:39, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: For discussion #1: origin accounts

message: Lloyd's Register is a reliable source. It records that a contemporaneous vessel in Mather's ownership was renamed from Prince of Wales to Hannibal. 
The entry in Lloyd's Register, however, adds further confusion of a different sort. It reports that in 1786 Prince of Wales had been named Hannibal. The situation is more complex than that. If one works back from 1787, the only thing that is clear is that vessels have been bought, disposed of, and renamed.
Year	Vessel                                                            	Master            	Owner    	Trade              	Notes
1787	HannibalLloyd's Register (1787), seq. no. H446.                   	J. Banfield       	J. Mather	London-Africa      	310 tons (bm); Sidmouth-built (1779); great repair 1784; "now Prince of Wales"
    	HannibalLloyd's Register (1787), seq. no. H447.                   	J. Bamfield       	J. Mather	Antigua-London     	300 tons (bm); South Carolina-built (1762); great repair 1784; ex-"Heart of Oak"
    	Prince of Wales                                                   	J. Mason          	J. Mather	London - Botany Bay	300 tons (bm); almost rebuilt 1786; named Hannibal in 1786
1786	HannibalLloyd's Register (1786), Seq. no. H402.                   	J. Banfield       	J. Mather	London-Africa      	310 tons (bm); Sidmouth built (1779); great repair 1784
    	HannibalLloyd's Register (1786), Seq. no. H403.                   	J. Bamfield       	J. Mather	Antigua-London     	300 tons (bm); South Carolina built (1762); former Heart of Oak
1784	Heart of Oak Now - illegibleLloyd's Register (1784), seq. no.H101.	Grandwater?Rogers 	J. Mather	Africa-London      	300 tons; Americas built
    	Heart of OakLloyd's Register (1784), seq. no.H105.                	R. RedmanJ. Mather	J. Mather	London             	300 tons; South Carolina built (1762)
    	Hannibal                                                          	                  	         	                   	No entry
    	Prince of Wales                                                   	                  	         	                   	No entry
What appears to have occurred is a mixing of records and a confusion of names. One may conjecture that one vessel was the South Carolina-built slaver Heart of Oak, launched in 1762, repaired in 1784, of 310 tons (bm), and renamed Hannibal in 1786.A database of slave voyages shows that Heart of Oak, Robert Patterson, master, Robert Patterson, owner, in 1774 and 1775 carried slaves from Senegambia and offshore Atlantic to South Carolina. The other was the West Indiaman Hannibal, Sidmouth-built, launched in 1779, not yet rebuilt, and of 300 tons (bm), and eventually renamed Prince of Wales. Unfortunately, Lloyd's Register for 1785 is not readily available on-line. Furthermore, in 1784, although J. Mather apparently owned 17 vessels, including Heart of Oak, none was built in Sidmouth in 1779. Nor is there any other vessel listed built in Sidmouth in 1779. Full resolution of the issue may have to await primary research.
Questions:
* Should this be mentioned in the "Origins" section, and if so, in how much detail?
* Supporting documentation is understandably a bit limited. To what extent should we seek to interpret the data?
Opinions(all other views extremely welcome):
*We should certainly include a reference to this vessel and name change in the article. However the full enunciation of the theory (with table) seems a bit too detailed for this article section. I've temporarily converted it into a single sentence, and brought the bulk here for discussion. Please revert if there's disagreement with this temporary change.
*I think we risk running into original research: I entirely agree with Acad Ronin's conclusions in developing this theory (and again, he's our leading expert on Lloyd's Register), but as he says, the records are too fragmentary to form a solid conclusion on whether Mather's 1787 Hannibal is the same vessel as Prince of Wales, which is otherwise a fairly common vessel name for the time. as above, contrary views welcome. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:33, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: For discussion #2: ''Hannibal''

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