Talk:Jack Vance/Archive 2

message: This page has now become *very* long.  And most of the vituperative issues seem to have been settled.  I think that probably everything except the last two or three sections should be archived.  IN THEIR ENTIRETY, I might add: this is the whole point of archives -- nothing is deleted!  Does anyone here know how to do it?  I've looked at some archives for other discussions and it looks as if a simple  is stuck at the top of the designated area.  If no one else here has more expertise in this than I do, I'll give it a go. Hayford Peirce 18:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it! Arvin Sloane 22:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archiving this page, or most of it

message: I think I've managed to create an archive for all of the earlier discussions.  Click on the link at the top of this page.  Please remember: nothing on the Archive page should be edited -- it is now part of the historical record, for good or for bad.... Hayford Peirce 22:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive achieved

message: It's asking for citations in regards to the praise Vance has received from peers and the press. Would blurb praise of the cover of books suffice? There's quite a bit of it, from people like Frank Herbert and Robert Silverberg, et al. What may be a self-evident fact to some folks isn't to the fine print readers around here, so we may have to get to work on sourcing some of Vance's praise. It won't be hard. Peter1968 15:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought I had a long blurb from a Washington Post review on the back of one of Jack's books, in which his style was discussed -- it would have been a very useful "reliable" source.  But I looked through all of my JV books and couldn't find it.  Rats!  I'll keep looking.  What about, let's say, an introduction by Tim Underwood in one of his limited editions of a JV book.  That's verifiable.  But it's also a source writing about a book he's publishing.... Hayford Peirce 15:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I find the Cunningham volume of dubious value. It contains a number of pieces by authors (notably Dan Simmons) who clearly have little or no familiarity with the work of Jack Vance. Baphomet V 16:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  High praise citations 

message: Gents, would you consider adding a link to the Totality Online site? It's a free service (requiring e-mail verification for security reasons) allowing Vance fans to easily look up favourite words and paragraphs throughout the entire Vance opus. Check it out at http://www.pharesm.org If you wish to know more, feel free to ask... Eclectic Omnivore 12:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're actually free to add your own link or do whatever editing you see fit here. However, it must fit within certain guidelines. I see no real issue with your site being linked, personally. Peter1968 14:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Worked fine for me, though the end user agreement is a little over the top for what is essentially a fan's database. Try registering with a Gmail account. Peter1968 11:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, I'll add the link. I know that, in principle, anyone can edit the article, but seeing as you gentlemen are working hard to maintain a level of quality and standardization, I thought I'd ask first :-) As to the above comment regarding the registration process: works fine with most users, but we have the occasional glitch where the registration confirmation doesn't reach the applicant for some obscure reason. In that case we activate the account manually and send a note. Should have happened by now in your case. The end user agreement was created in collaboration with the Vance family, and reflects their wishes. It may seem over the top to you, but the database contains all of Jack's works, and certain legal aspects concerning user rights need to be adequately covered. Eclectic Omnivore 13:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Totality site worked, and seems to be useful. The previous problem was my mistake: I made a typo in my e-mail address while registering. Alex Feht 00:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed link to Totality

message: I see some recent conflicting links to the VIE site.  The most recent requests a reason for the link's inclusion.  I believe the link should be included because the VIE is a notable fact about Vance and should be referenced for verifiability.  I'd be happy converting that link to a footnote, and will do so if you suggest that that's acceptable, but it is clearly the best way to supply verifiability to that paragraph.  Mike Christie 01:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To repeat, the Foreverness site at www.integralarchive.com, which is what Paul Rhoads wishes to link to, is not the VIE site (which is at www.vanceintegral.com). Furthermore, it is not associated with the official VIE site. Finally, the VIE organization has explicitly made known (see the message board link above) that it does not wish to be associated with it. Baphomet V 03:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I misunderstood -- it's the official VIE site I thought was being linked to; I must have misread the links in the diffs.  I've said elsewhere that I think it would be OK to link to a specific page in Foreverness in the form of a footnote ref, in order to support specific information, but I agree that there is no reason to provide a general link to the whole site.  Thanks for the clarification.  Mike Christie 11:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  VIE link 

message: Why does aerth redirect here? DirkvdM 09:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea why. Since that article has no content, I've requested it be deleted. Peter1968 13:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aerth 

message: "Vance wrote two political books ... and also this one ... and also these two ..." and no mention of Wyst?  Funny.  —Tamfang 16:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're correct, so go ahead and mention Wyst in the same section. --Arvin Sloane 20:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there's a long and strong thread of political and social concern that runs through JV's work from the early 1950s onward--what is slavery if not a political question? The politics became increasingly explicit and particular from the late 1960s, and much of the conflict in the Cadwal books is rooted in political issues and social attitudes. Then there's Durdane, and Emphyrio, and "Assault on a City." . . . RLetson 16:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, what's that Huey Newton reference doing still in this section? It's an unsourced and almost certainly original-research assertion. I'll cut it if nobody can come up with a source. RLetson 16:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  political books 

message: It's full of transparent advocacy--"the celebrated chapter in the The Book of Dreams"; "no manifest ancestor in English-language fiction"; and so on. Celebrated by whom, I wonder; and if JV's style is so unprecidented, why the catalogue of "intriguing parallels" in the third paragraph? That last paragraph, by the way, is not only suspectly POV but probably "original research" as well--how many of those comparisons beyond the familar Clark Ashton Smith one are mentioned by commentators on JV's style? At the very least, they need to be sourced, and the whole section needs to be toned down. (In fact, that applies to the entire article.) RLetson 16:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that I am passionate about it but consider this: Everything gets "toned down" in a democracy to suit everyone's objections and preferences – until there is no tone to speak of, and nobody's preferences are suited. That's exactly how during the 20th century many important things – culture, education, enterprise – were irrevocably destroyed. I say: rules exist to be ignored until there's a dire need for their application. Arvin Sloane 19:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Possible Influences" section

message: I have added to Hayford's revision of the Mysteries section by moving the early mention of JV's mystery writing into that section and doing some patch-in rewriting and removing POV comments. I have two questions about unsourced comparisons: who says that Magnus Ridolph is like the Saint; and who says that Night Lamp has echoes of P.D. James's Unsuitable Job for a Woman? Both statements may be defensible, but they should not originate with any of  the editors. RLetson 19:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a nice job of rewriting -- you've removed a lot of objectionable stuff.  But I think the Saint and P.D. James stuff should go also.  Also, you write:  "With a few exceptions most of Vance’s science fiction is set in a near, far, or very far future...."  "Near," "far," and "very far" pretty much cover the gamut, I'd say.  What's left?  "Medium-far future"?  And who defines any of these terms?  So I don't think that this tells us very much.... Hayford Peirce 21:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks--FWIW, the variously distant futures isn't my copy--other fish needed frying, so I left it in place even though it bothered me as well. Next time I'm in a revising mood, I'll replace it with something like "Most of Vance's stories are set in far or very far distant futures" and figure a way to splice it onto that Gaean Reach passage. The first sentence in that paragraph needs fixed as well--the connection between publishing venues and story settings doesn't quite work. (Aren't nearly all of JV's SF stories set in the "space age"?) RLetson 06:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I cut the Saint and P.D. James references. What about the Jack London connection? Can anybody point to a source? RLetson 07:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  How about something like this: "While Vance's stories have a wide variety of settings, a majority of them belong to a period long after humanity has colonized other stars."  —Tamfang 01:59, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds perfect to me, except that I would edit it slightly to say "a wide variety of temporal settings, the majority belong etc...." Hayford Peirce 02:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mysteries

message: :The system of magic used in Vance's work, in which spells are memorised and then forgotten once cast . . .
Appearances of magic are both sporadic and varied; there's no one system consistent throughout Vance's work.  Which story has that feature?  —Tamfang 06:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Memorizing (or mis-memorizing) spells is a common premise.  Forgetting them with use is less so.  —Tamfang 04:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We may note that the new triva section, whatever its importance or non-importance, has caused zero controversy, while mention of the VIE, a 6 year event in which Jack Vance himself was personally involved, and which honors him as no author has ever been honored before, is the suject of, shall we say, a good deal of foolishness. I am NOT urging that the Jack Vance page be devoted the the VIE; I am simply pointing out the oddness of certain reactions. PaulRhoads- 12:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Tetragruppasum, who are you?PaulRhoads- 10:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  system of magic