Talk:Warren Jeffs/Archive 1

message: First thing that came into my head when I heard about this guy: Waco Siege and John Titor. I think that says more about me than anything though... Cryomaniac 20:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice thought, Northridge. But it's a fallacy. Then again, people who use that language usually realize this. So, are you honestly saying that if a person "has nothing to hide" they should come forward and make their case, regardless of whether the courts see it their way or not? Do you obey *every* law - even those you don't believe are fair and just? Should a Christian living in Maoist China have come forward and stood up for their beliefs? Would not doing so, have made their beliefs any less valid? Polyblogger 14:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You made a valid argument.  In many cases, my reasoning can be taken as a fallacy.  But despite what you might think, I don't believe the US is comparable to Maoist China.  There isn't really any Christian persecution in the US (though some people think otherwise); the death penalty is restricted to capital cases (and I think in China, the death penalty applies to a broader range of offenses); and the US justice system utilizes bail (I wouldn't know if bail is used in China).  I don't think Mr. Jeffs was short of funds; he might/could have been eligible for bail if he passed the prerequisite requirements.  With regards to Mr. Jeffs' sting in hiding, of course it isn't definite proof of guilt, but it's a damn strong indicator, and Mr. Jeffs' publicity in the Top 10 Most Wanted roster does color a person's perspective.  Yes, I know the US justice system isn't perfect; the fact that innocent people have/continue to go to prison is enough to give pause.  It would be wonderful if God was on earth to succintly tell us who the bad guys are and mete out the appropriate punishments.  But it isn't such a perfect world.  I'm sorry if this answer seems excessive and incoherent, but the reasoning behing your question seemed vague, Polyblogger.  Are you coming from a 'Christian' viewpoint?  Are you skeptical of the US justice system?  Or are you just taking offense at my 'fallacy?' -Northridge06:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just a thought 

message: Is it really necessary to have three almost identical passport-style photos? Camillus (talk) 23:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Warren and welcome to Wikipedia. One question: If you're so "powerful", how did you end up getting caught? Hmmm....--Folksong 09:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: If a word ends in an "s", and you want to make it possessive, you add an apostrophe "s".
For example, "the boss's car"
It is only when the word is plural that you merely add the apostrophe:
For example, "the bosses' car"
Sooooo....
since the name Jeffs is a singular noun, It would be "Jeffs's wives", not "Jeffs' wives"
"Jeffs's wives" looks cumbersome, but what can you do...
:Not neccessarily - Chicago, APA and AP allow for you to just use the apostrophe as a possessive. For example "Warren Jeffs' car" or Chris' is acceptable, and in fact, in most western US universities is the norm. As a writer, I never use the possessive "double s" due to my training as a journalist. -Visorstuff 15:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  grammar tip: the possessive 

message: This article says he was captured on the 28th but the FBI Most Wanted List page says the 29th. Which one is it? --Kevin W. 20:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the FBI say the 29th, it was the 29th. dposse 23:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant the MWL page here on the wiki. --Kevin W. 00:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 2 news sources say 28th and so does The FBI  --Napnet 01:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe the confusion came from the time difference. He was arrested at about 9PM local time, which is about midnight on the east coast(where the FBI's headquarters are). So it'e either the 28th or 29th depending on the timezone. TJ Spyke 23:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capture date 

message: Unless anyone objects, I'm going to eliminate the current opening photo and replace it with his recent booking photo. Aside from being more up-to-date, the current photo is grainy and of a poor resolution (I'm not citing any fault on the part of whoever uploaded it; the photo itself, which was used by the FBI, was of a low res to begin with). All in all, it looks much more professional.209.169.114.213 05:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo Change 

message: Where's the religious freedom aspect in all of this? Aren't religious practitioners often allowed to break civil law in the practice of their faith? Smoking marijuana, slaughtering animals, and so on? I'm not saying Warren Jeffs is right or wrong in his beliefs, but that - in America - one would think he'd be allowed to practice as he chooses. Are polygamy and marrying "under age" girls somehow exempt from this, when other violations of law are not? And are these girls under age in the states in question, or at the Federal level? In many states, 16 is the age of consent. Someone please explain why the FBI felt the need to add this guy to their most wanted list, for these seemingly minor crimes. Minor in terms of possibly falling under religious freedom precedent, as well as, relative to the crimes of others on the most wanted list. Is there more going on here than meets the eye? Not looking to make a point so much as asking for some enlightenment. From anyone but Northridge, that is. ;)  Polyblogger 14:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious Freedom 

message: :...a sect that broke away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when the latter denounced polygamy in 1890, something the founder of all Mormonism, Joseph Smith, believed to be a prophet of God by members, had encouraged in the belief that they were restoring original Christianity.
I removed this portion last week because the last portion stated that he believed that they were restoring origional christianity is unfounded to my knowledge. It was a little presumptuous to just remove it, but I believe it should be removed unless a reference from joseph smith's writings is placed. I think a citation is necessary because the statement makes sound LDS members sound hipocritical without mentioning thier belief in continuing revelation (like when in acts the need for circumcision and the rule that the gospel was only for the jews were both changed).--72.130.179.41 15:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement without citation 

message: I reverted the edit from an IP address removing the following text: "*Carolyn Jessop - , left Merril Jessop and took her seven children (Former wife of Merril Jessop)".  I am not sure if this is a true statement or what the source is, but as the anonymous editor deleted it without comment, I thought it should be added back on. Fundamentaldan 16:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Edits 

message: There are a crapload of external links and references, most of which are a bunch of news articles.  We don't need this many links.  I think we should use some to cite and then trash the rest. Hbdragon88 02:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The link on http://www.sltrib.com/ci_4753187?source=rss doesn't work. -- Dietrich Benninghaus 06:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: This page is full of POV-leaning inclusions.  Compare this page to the page on Joseph Smith, and you'll see a vast difference.  Both were polygamists, both arrested, both religious leaders with significant followings, both claimed to be prophet.  And yet Smith's page is rather positive, while this page on Jeffs paints him as a common criminal.  This is very inconsistent.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.230.111 (talk) 17:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: I'm taking out the timestamp nonsense in the top summary.  I took it out once before, and it was added back in.  In 2 years, no one will care, or need to know, that it was at FOUR TWENTY-FIVE AND THIRTY-FIVE SECONDS PM, especially if the article says "in the afternoon of such and such date".  Wikipedia is not a FIRSTPOSTLOL competition, it's non-encyclopediaic, it's trivial, and it looks childish.  Please to be not putting it back without a really, really good reason.  If it needs to be said, it could be said later in the article. 
-- Will 20:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timestamp accurate to the second of guilty verdict 

message: has been nominated for deletion.  As this template is transcluded here, contributors to the "Warren Jeffs" article may want comment in the discussion here.  I propose that if the template is deleted, then most transclusions would be changed to . -- Mark Chovain 01:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure that even  is appropriate here.  Jeffs was notable as a religious leader before criminal charges were filed against him.  The infobox reduces his notability to the criminal issue, and I don't know that that's appropriate.  --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 03:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, Jeffs was notable before the criminal issue.  Maybe we should go back to the usual . -- Diletante (talk) 00:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox FBI Ten Most Wanted TfD 

message: This article needs to be updated because there has been a sentencing for Warren jeffs. RYAN 3000 (talk) 01:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentenced 

message: The top sidebar indicates Jeffs is in Utah State Prison.  The presumably obsolete section on his Aug. 2006 arrest says he's in Washington County UT jail pending an April 2007 trial. Davelic (talk) 20:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update incarceration status 

message: I was considering about deleting Seth Steed Jeffs article because he just seems not to be notable enough. But then again, merging would be better. After all, he aided his big brother while he was a fugitive, so that's why he should be mentioned in this article more specifically. Reverend X (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the merge since its been two months and no discussion. Seems notable with sources and a fair amount of google hits. Paper45tee (talk) 04:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: This article needs to add the fact that he was featured on America's Most Wanted.
75.179.153.39 (talk) 06:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of America's Most Wanted 

message: The biography section seems a bit odd - I was expecting content about where Jeffs was born, went to school, and so on. Instead, it seems like a chronology of his leading his group and then being on the run from the law.
I would appreciate it if someone could fill in some biographical information in this section. --Zippy (talk) 00:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biography section 

message: Shouldn't an item about a polygamist say clearly somewhere how many wives he has/had? Estimate? Maximum? Children? --Hugh7 (talk) 07:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many wives? 

message: Smoking Gun has some very damaging pictures of Jeffs smooching his 12-year-old bride, as well as another who's 14. If you can't call this a cult, there's no such thing. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html 216.231.46.147 (talk) 03:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kissing his 12-year-old bride 

message: I thought of you adding commets and/or talking about how he broke god's law or something like that in comparison to religious and Divine laws of other religions. And i have been thinking of this sorta stuff for a while, of how he might broke laws or teachings of other religions and such. And so forth. It might be interesting to discuss here. As long as it doesn't lead to a bitter arguement and so. So please reply back and i got inspirement for bringing up this subject in the first place in part as i got to ask jehovah witnesses and mainstream LDS people about thier views on Warren Jeffs, and they both agree on that Warren Jeffs broke god's law. So thank you and good luck to you then. In addition as well please also note that this is not promoting a judgement, but more like giving your personal opion type of thing and so forth.   - Jana.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.243.47.102 (talk) 19:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warren Jeffs has supposedly broke [[Divine Law|god's law]] 

message: Warren Jeffs looks like a jew. Does anyone know if he is a jew?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.214.133 (talk) 00:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish? 

message: In this article there is a brief reference to Lamont Barlow being Wall's former husband. Does that mean they are now divorced? I have heard rumors of a divorce but was unsure if it was true or not. If they have separated, when did it occur? Would someone please fill me in on the details? I'm confused. --69.128.204.110 (talk) 05:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elissa Wall 

message: . The victims were 12 and 15 year-old girls.
--Javaweb (talk) 04:16, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  August 2011 conviction 

message: Thank you,User:Good_Olfactory, for fixing my Warren Jeffs edit.  I had accidentally deleted paragraphs of text.  --Javaweb (talk) 11:50, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text accidentally deleted 

message: Is this template for the info box the most appropriate over all?  Would a religious leader or cult leader infobox be more appropriate?  I'm not sure which templates are available but I don't think he is primarily known for being a fugitive but rather as a sexual predator and/or cult leader.  Veriss (talk) 05:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  FBI's Most Wanted Template? 

message: Rather than debating whether to call him a "child molester" or a "child abuser" in the lead, it's probably simpler and more neutral to just state that he was convicted of such-and-such offences in 2011. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. Wikipedia renders the facts but Wikipedia does not render judgement (even if the judgement were accurate). ♆ CUSH ♆ 08:42, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problems with this approach.  Veriss (talk) 02:18, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Child molester" 

message: I have removed the "where is he now?" information. The references are to a form which displays current information (Galveston Hospital as far as I can see at present) so this content is not verifiable. We can consider how to provide a link to this form, perhaps as an external link, and of course any notable change in his circumstances will be reported in reliable sources...
: As of mid-August 2011 he was housed at the Byrd Unit."Offender Information Search." Texas Department of Criminal Justice. Retrieved on August 13, 2011. As of late August 2011 he was located at the Powledge Unit."Offender Information Search." Texas Department of Criminal Justice. Retrieved on August 27, 2011.
--Mirokado (talk) 22:10, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Real-time prison information 

message: With everything going on this last month, I'm not sure that the succession box is right.  The Possible aren't correct.  For example:
Possibly Merril Jessop and Wendell Nielson:
Per  
It is no longer "possibly" that they are prophet and Merril Jessop can't no longer be "De Facto" leader.  However, dose that mean that they were NEVER prophet?  It's not Clear if they were ever "prophet" since there really isn't any WP:V source that say Jessop and Nielsen were positively Prophet, should they be completely remove to make the box like this:
or even 
Or since there were wp:v source that prior to 2011 say that it was possible they were "prophet" perhaps it should be suggested that there was a break in W. Jeffs Prophethood by using:
This also effect the :Template:MFleaders and any FLDS/Mormon Fundamentalist "Current" leaders sections. Should Merril Jessop be listed as "De Facto" leader anymore since he's gone?
Or it should be left as is since no one is sure?
Please note this only apply to "Prophet of the.." portion of the box, the rest should be left alone. Any suggestions.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:07, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added uncle Lyle, the next-eldest brother after Warren, as his designated acting- (when necessary) prez per recent CBS news article "Jeffs' brother will take over: Ex-FLDS member."--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  2011 update 

message: There is already an archive. I will enable automatic archiving. The first run of the bot will archive items older than one year, which is what I would have done manually (doing it automatically is more reliable though.) I will then reduce the time to six months for regular archiving. Please post here if you would prefer otherwise. --Mirokado (talk) 10:01, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving 

message: Jeffs is a San Francisco native wanted in Arizona on criminal charges of sexual conduct with a minor...
Source: cbs5.com/this link:  http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_129015909.html
:This is an old one, unsigned. The link is now dead, here it is from Wayback. I would prefer something a bit more than just "native of" from one news story before updating the article, but thanks for finding this. --Mirokado (talk) 20:08, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Born in San Francisco 

message: Though I disagree with this man thoroughly I thought I'd clean up the neutrality of the page. I also mentioned his retraction of his claim to prophethood was only heard by is brother Nephi, Jeffs denies the conversation ever happened. I tried to use more neutral language and prevent "poisoning the well" so to speak. However I by no means approves of his crimes or recognize him as a prophet.
For this reason it appears to me Nephi may be attempting to seize power since the church needs a free prophet to perform marraiges so rather then post my speculation i have requested a page for Nephi Jeffs as I believe he will be a man of interest later on. I changed "cult" to "controversial sect" On a seperate note made mention of the practice of inbreeding within his sect to preserve his bloodline which the FLDS church believes they are descendent of Jesus Christ, as this sect is also exclusivly made of descendents of Joseph Smith whom they claim is a blood relative of Jesus of Nazareth. This is sourced in "Under the banner of heaven" and many other books which erroneously claim all mormons believe this when in reality only FLDS holds this doctrine that I know of.
I'd also like to request an update, where is he now? How has his trial been going? Has the church performed any new plural marriages as only HE is allowed to perform marraiges in their denomination. 69.29.97.154 00:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You should register with wikipedia to get a username. I do not think that a separate page is warranted for Nephi Jeffs at this time, but should be made a part of the FLDS article when appropriate. Updates to the article are made by contributors like yourself as they happen and someone gets around to it. Nodekeeper 07:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand why the word "cult" should be changed to "controversial sect".  The word "cult" by definition does not carry a non-neutral meaning.  Religious studies, books, classes, articles, etc., use the term "cult" as a matter of course.  Even wiki's article has various definitions for "cult", because it is a relatively vague term.  However, the use of "controversial sect" seems just as vague and seems to be just a wordy way of saying ... "cult".  To not use the term suggested seems to be a case of over political correctness.  That's not to say that "controversial sect" is an inaccurate term, but rather just an unnecessary one, when "cult" works just fine. Trippz 09:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: but you are obviously a mormon. 69.232.43.239 14:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: (reordered posts chronologically, indentation for clarity-I-hope, outdents for necromancy, no change to the posted text) --Mirokado (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:NPOV|Neutrality]] 

message: The Biography section is total fucking garbage and would genuinely benefit from a clean up or perhaps a complete redo. (98.157.193.78 (talk) 05:37, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems fairly complete and accurate; could you elaborate on what you think is wrong with it? -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 18:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biography Section 

message: Should Jeffs still be in the "People convicted of incest" Category.  While I know he was convicted, wasn't his conviction overturned?  Therefore that mean the court says he wasn't conviction at all due to some reason.  It wasn't that his penalty was overturn, his conviction entirely was overturned.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 21:34, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one has said anything, I'm going to remove this page from the Category.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:57, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  People convicted of incest Category