Talk:Federation of Tamil Sangams of North America

message: The HAF is helped by the RSS perhaps but not part of the RSS. Look at who opposes them: Mullahs, Marxists, and Missionaries. This is about the beginnings of Hinduism, before the advent of caste and other socio-economic problems. Borntorebel is inserting POV and making the HAF looking like villains. FOSA is an extremely anti-Hindu organization, so is Ram Puniyani.Bakaman%% 15:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RSS/HAF 

message: FeTNA does not represent all Tamils, just like the RSS (supposedly) does not represent all Hindus. Many RSS leaders are Tamil, and many are of lower caste. The FOSA, Dalit Missionary Council are out to smear Hinduism's history. The HAF also does not believe in Aryan Invasion.Bakaman%% 15:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tamils 

message: I suggest briefly discussing any specific FeTNA positions of the Californian Hindu textbook controversy in this article, and discussing larger non-FeTNA-specific issues in Californian Hindu textbook controversy and related articles. Discussion of specific FeTNA positions should draw on their own letters, position statements, etc.
Here's my suggested NPOV replacement for the entire section:
: FeTNA was actively involved in the Californian Hindu textbook controversy, in which it joined a number of other groups in successfully petitioning California's Curriculum Commission to reject allegedly revisionist edits to California's textbook curriculum on Hinduism and India, as suggested by two American Hindu organizations. FeTNA raised several specific objections about the proposed textbook revisions, which they felt sidelined the role of South Indian and Dravidian culture (history, language, and religious traditions), and whitewashed caste and gender discrimination in India. (See main article Californian Hindu textbook controversy for details.)
Larger shared critiques of the proposed textbook revisions can be discussed in context in the main Californian Hindu textbook controversy article, where they'll be more useful and better contextualized.
Other suggested changes to NPOV and clarify the article:
* Rewrite the first para to read:
: The Federation of Tamil Sangams in North America (FeTNA, established 1987, nonprofit status 1986) is an umbrella organization of North American Tamil diaspora organizations. As of 2006, the group represents 42 local organizations, with a combined constituency of about 20,000 Tamil families, mostly Indian American (from Tamil Nadu) and Sri Lankan American.
* Flesh out the "Convention" section. FeTNA is best known for its annual conventions (several dozen media mentions, perhaps 100+ since the 1970s), and it's a bit ridiculous to not have more detail there.
* In the membership section, delete the line "The group has further expanded by including 40 local Tamil groups. 'Ilankai Tamil Sangam', the nuclear group was formed in 1977. Its members represent Tamils from Sri Lanka."; it's redundant (the number of groups will change over time, and it's easier to keep it in one place; as it stands, the intro mentions 42 groups, and this line mentions 40), misleading (Ilankai Tamil Sangam was one of the 5 founding groups, but to call it "nuclear" implies to the reader that it has an ongoing leadership role within FeTNA), and just plain wrong (its members represent Tamils both from India and Sri Lanka).
* Rewrite the "Position on ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka" section, basing it on FeTNA's actual stances, rather than solely on its position re: LTTE, which is currently named in every one of the 5 paras in the section; there's more to Sri Lanka than the LTTE. I don't have a lot of details here, so it might be useful for someone to look at a few FeTNA position statements / resolutions, and distill a general sense of their stance.
* Under the "US civil rights lawsuits" section, combine the "In 1997" and "In 1998" sentences into a single paragraph, to make the text less choppy, and offer some continuity.
* Remove the LTTE link from the "See Also" section; the LTTE's already linked in context several times in the text.
--Anirvan 17:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. The BorntoRebel dude was spitting CPI(M) garbage on this page that was needed on FOSA's website not an encyclopedia page. People do need to know about FeTNA's connection to LTTE though. I live in the US and my Tamil Sangam is NOT a member of FeTNA so its important to note that it does not represent all Tamils.Bakaman%% 17:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Three questions -- do you have externally verifiable information about (1) the history of FeTNA's position on the conflict in Sri Lanka, (2) FeTNA's concrete connections with or published stances re: the LTTE, and (3) FeTNA's reach, e.g. what proportion of North American Tamil sangams are affiliated with with it? It should be entirely possible to write about FeTNA and its political stances in a neutral manner, in ways that both its supporters and opponents can agree on. --Anirvan 18:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Borntorebel though is quoting anti-Hindu people like Ravan Puniyani in his crusade against "Hindutva". I will try to find connections between FeTNA(LTTE), but on the proportion subject many Sangams are definitely not in the FeTNA framework.Bakaman%% 00:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Position on Californian Hindu textbook controversy, etc. 

message: FETNA's connection with  LTTE is obvious. FETNA has gone well beyond what a purely cultural organization would do for a political/separationist group. 
LTTE has been able to waged a long war againt a country. It has assasinated major politicians in Sri Lanka and India. LTTE apparently has access to  enormous financial resources, enough to fight a conventional Sri Lankan army. I don't know where these resources come from, I would guess a part of it comes from Tamil diaspora through feeder organizations. LTTE apparently was not afraid of the might of Indian army as well. It should not surprize anyone to find a large network of LTTE-connected organizations among the Tamils.
FeTNA has never been shy about signing documents supporting LTTE. 
It is true that FETNA does not represent all Tamils, and not all Tamils support LTTE. However they have been successful in in making all other Tamil groups insignificant. In case of LTTE, they have taken care of rival Tamil organizations like PLOTE the old fashioned way.
Wikipedia should present facts, and all the facts. Just because an organization calls it self a "cultural" organization, does not mean its connections should be not be discussed.--Cardreader 16:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FETNA and LTTE

message: I thank Anirvan for his efforts, however I would like to say the following. I should mention I have known many Tamils, from India, Sri Lanka and Malaysia, I have also known some Sri Lankan Singalese.
- The only reason LTTE can claim to be the only organization representing Sri Lankan Tamils is that they have killed most of competing Tamil leaders in Sri Lanka. They have won, using terror. BTW, I believe LTTE invented suicide attacks. 
- LTTE is confidentally fighting an entire formally organize army. They are better equipped than Sri Lankan army. Where are they getting funds? From front organizations they have set up among the Tamil diaspora.
- FeTNA's  predecessor is  'Ilankai Tamil Sangam'. Through careful planning they have managed to capture most Tamil organizations. However FeTNA does not represent all Tamils, and does not represent all Tamil groups. However it is the best organized. You should know about how organizations are captured in North America, rival Sikh group have been doing it for years.
- If FeTNA were a purely social Tamil group, it would have refrained in getting involved in political (international and national) and religious issues. They have other things on their agenda. They collaborate with Dravidianists (they are in fact Dravidianists), missionaries and the like, for the shared aims. FeTNA has not only been involved in the Textbook controversy, they are involved in OBC reservation issue. 
I am an admirer of the classic Tamil heritage, including the classic Tamil literature. I find it so crude  and ironic that a supporters of a violent organization run by a megalomaniac would organize a conference on Thirukkural. I am sorry to have to say that.--Vikramsingh 23:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Vikramsingh. From your comments, I presume that you're basically ok with the suggested edit of the Federation of Tamil Sangams of North America article, as your feedback focuses primarily on your political disagreements with FeTNA and the LTTE, rather than on textual issues. You write that "If FeTNA were a purely social Tamil group, it would have refrained in getting involved in political (international and national) and religious issues." Just to make it clear, my suggested edit doesn't state that FeTNA is purely a social group, and I think it's unlikely a reader would come to that conclusion, given that over half of the article is devoted to FeTNA's political stances. (Which is a problem -- I think coverage of the group's social activities is relatively lacking.) Thanks for your feedback. --Anirvan 02:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: comments

message: Anyone who wants to know what FeTNA (and thus LTTE) wants to achieve, go to 
"Ilankai Tamil Sangam" (the mother group of FeTNA) website http://sangam.org/taraki/links/ ,  click on "Tamil Tribune". Read the articles there. That is what FeTNA wants to achieve.--Vikramsingh 23:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What does FeTNA want?

message: I'm stunned at Vikramsingh's slew of bad faith POV edits to this article -- many of them contested, none of them referenced. I'm disappointed that he'd jump back into a ridiculous POV edit war as soon as the article was unprotected, instead of engaging in dialogue when asked to contribute.
Please take a look at his edits. I think they speak for themselves.
Some of Vikramsingh's edits:
# Labeling Ilankai Tamil Sangam the "nuclear group" in the Federation, when they're just one of five co-founders, and one of forty-two members. As discussed in the article, FeTNA members' votes are proportional to membership, so singling out one of 42 member groups for special attention is misleading.
# Adding biased and baseless glosses of FeTNA's politics like "The Federation supports Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)," "It has issued a number of statements supporting LTTE...and an independent Tamil nation" -- statements that appear to be patently false, and not supported by any of the 6 FeTNA statements that are referenced and discussed in the article. Please add new information about relevant FeTNA statements if they exist, but there's no room for baseless claims in an encyclopedia.
# Adding "FeTNA was actively involved in the Californian Hindu textbook controversy, in which it joined a number of other groups, including Christian missionary groups". Vikramsingh doesn't even pretend to be NPOV. There were a substantial number of groups that shared FeTNA's positions during the Californian Hindu textbook controversy, including (for example) 150+ academics and 17 California state legislators. If the text needed expansion (which I don't think it did), a NPOV edit would mention all of the groups sharing FeTNA's stances, instead of implying by selective listing that FeTNA is linked to or supportive of missionaries. Is there really a need to continue this kind of partisan editing?
I'm disappointed. -- Anirvan 02:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vikramsingh's slew of NPOV edits 

message: See LTTE funded U.S. Congressman’s 2005 trip to Vanni in Sri Lanka
: Washington, D.C. 24 August (Asian Tribune.com): United States Congressman Danny Davis’ trip to Sri Lanka from March 30 to April 5, 2005, spending most of his time in the regions of the Vanni and Kilinochchi Districts, controlled by the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, was in fact funded by the Liberation Tigers, it was revealed by federal authorities, according to an August 23 datelined report in Chicago Tribune.Danny Davis, Democratic Congressman from Illinois says that he was unaware that the Tamil Tigers paid for the trip and  on his required congressional disclosure form has reported that the trip was paid for by a Hickory Hills, Illinois-based Tamil cultural organization, the Federation of Tamil Sangams of North America. Congressman Danny Davis said he knew that the group was "associated" with the Tamil Tigers but did not realize that the trip’s costs were covered with the funds controlled by the (Sri Lanka) rebel group. ...
Now, he should know.--Vikramsingh 21:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  News Update

message: things seem sourced.Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 01:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the problem? 

message: I'm making a number of changes to the article, which involve specific changes by users ISKapoor. As always, I'd appreciate responses and feedback.
* Lead section: The fact that not every org that FeTNA lists as a member links back to FeTNA on its website is highly irrelevant to the lead, and is mentioned below in the text. Given the substantial press coverage that FeTNA and its conferences has received over the past two decades, I've come across no externally verifiable critiques of its membership; it's not important enough to go in the lead section.
* Lead section: Danny Davis' statement doesn't stand by itself, and refers to a charge associated with a current event; I've added some more context.
* The three-paragraph-long discussion of the Tamil Relief Organization is utterly out of place in this article; it's an entirely separate organization, and deserving of its own article.
* ISKapoor added back the misspelling of Madeleine Albright's name. I'm fixing it again.
* It's utterly irrelevant to the FeTNA article that Nachimuthu Socrates was given a copy of an audio CD at a FeTNA event
* I feel it's NPOV to claim that the two Hindu orgs involved in the CA textbook case were making "revisionist edits," given the level of disagreement about the issue; I'm changing it back to a more balanced "allegedly revisionist edits"
* In the CA textbook section, ISKapoor characterized all critics of the edits as groups "similar" to FeTNA, which is off-base (I believe FeTNA may have been the only broad-based national membership org or ethnicity/language-based org involved)
* Also in the CA textbook section, ISKapoor deleted (1) the fact that FeTNA felt that the edits in question whitewashed caste and gender discrimination in India, (2) the references for the entire para, and (3) the "see main article" section. I'm putting those back.
- Anirvan 19:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. Another unlabeled reversion back to the same POV, off-topic, badly-written content. Another day of complete refusal to discuss the edits on the talk page. I'm going to be reverting back to my last NPOV edit. As always, I welcome feedback. Anirvan 19:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits, September 12 

message: Unrelated organizations and references are made with hidden-agendas to mis-guide the readers with the hoax information to defame FeTNA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Srilankangovtwatchdog  (talk • contribs)  18:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want the article deleted, you may want to finish the AfD process.--Rockfang (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll also need to cite some sources to counter the sourced material already in the article, since you're alleging it's based on incorrect information. —C.Fred (talk) 19:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reason of Deletion 

message: * FeTNA is a registered and highly ethical American Organization of US-based-citizens of Tamil Origins (Scientists, Professors, Scholars, Doctors, Lawyers, Software Engineers, Accountants etc.,). 
* FeTNA strictly follow the laws of the United States Constitution. The US Department of Treasury has granted FETA the status of a Charitable Organization. 
* FeTNA financial statements are audited by the CPA and tax returns are filed regularly by following the instructions of the Internal Revenue Services.
* FeTNA office bearers and directors are elected in a democratic system according to the by-laws of the FeTNA.  Once they have completed their term as office, FeTNA is not responsible for their activities. 
* Defaming FeTNA by falsely accusing FeTNA of connection with any organization is unacceptable.   FeTNA is secular organization mainly focused on the development of language and literature, and foster cultural diversity and development.
* It may be considered against law if someone tries to connection FeTNA with any other organization without written communication to FeTNA Board.   Any false or un-proven facts should not be posted about FeTNA without consulting the FeTNA Board, any such effort public, media or on the web will be reported to the appropriate US Authorities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Srilankangovtwatchdog  (talk • contribs)  18:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want the article deleted, you may want to finish the AfD process.--Rockfang (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll also need to cite some sources to counter the sourced material already in the article, since you're alleging it's based on incorrect information. —C.Fred (talk) 19:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Facts about FeTNA