Talk:Berlin Hauptbahnhof

message: Is more correctly translated as "main station". Main station is not always the central station, and supported anecdotally that most mass transit systems in Germany/Austria with English translations call it "main station". --kjd 20:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be Berlin's main station, but Main Station is a rare title in English; we wouldn't call it Head Station either, even though this might be even more literal. Just as the various Central Stations in English-speaking countries are usually translated to Hauptbahnhof in German (e.g., Newcastle Hauptbahnhof), Central Station is the usual term in English for Hauptbahnhof. ProhibitOnions 20:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Err, is it? I've always translated Hauptbahnhof as "Main Station", similarly Praha hlavni nadrazi. -- Arwel (talk) 01:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is kind of silly. Most people wouldn't fuss about translating New York's Grand Central Station. In fact, check out the German wikipedia's entry on the station: :de:Grand Central Terminal. They don't bother translating it -- they just explain what it is. --Allen Riddell 13:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Grand Central would not be the Hbf in German anyway. That'd be Penn station. 82.36.26.229 01:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Rare as in Farnborough (Main) being AFAIK the only instance of an indigenous Main Station - and even that's misleading: the "Main" refers to the line it's on (BML - Bournemouth Main Line). The more traditional British English designation for a non-central main station is General Station - this was once very much standard GWR practice (Neath General, Cardiff General, Bodmin General, Stratford-upon-Avon General, Leamington Spa General, Oxford General etc etc etc), but now only survives in the name of Wrexham General, which sounds very archaic now. 82.36.26.229 01:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Why do we need a translation at all? The article is called Berlin Hauptbahnhof, why can't we just say "Berlin Hauptbahnhof is Berlin's new main railway station" or "Berlin Hauptbahnhof is Berlin's new main railway station"? Angr/talk 10:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here, here! I didn't see this when I made my comment above.  --Allen Riddell 14:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It is indeed in the middle of nowhere, but geographically it's smack dab in the center of Berlin. Built with the expectation that by now all the division would have been healed and Berlin would be booming with nearly 5 million people. A better name would be Berlin White Elephant station. (FWIW, Südkreuz, the new expensive second-biggest station, is also in the wilderness.) ProhibitOnions 11:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "It is indeed in the middle of nowhere, but geographically it's smack dab in the center of Berlin." True. In the spirit of non-discrimination, it is equally inaccessible from all parts of the city. I live much closer to Lehrter BahnhofHauptbahnhof than to Zoo, but if I want to go there, I still have to change trains at Zoo. Angr/talk 11:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Regardless of what we translate its name as, it might be worth describing its location which we all seem to agree is in the geographic centre of Berlin surrounded by nothing - hence the need for U55 which might be worth a mention.  As I don't live in Berlin this is the sort of thing that I don't feel able to accurately comment on.--Pedantic of Purley 14:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Really? When I was there last month all the announcements in English referred to "Hauptbahnhof". IMO you might just as well say "Berlin Hauptbahnhof is the principal train station in Berlin" but even then Ostbahnhof and Südkreuz are ranked by DB with equal status... Dmccormac (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hauptbahnhof translation

message: Why does it refer to the man as a "German man"?  Isn't that redundant?  I mean, if this station was in the United States, they wouldn't say "an American man".  Besides, regardless of where the incident takes place, does the ethnicity of the person really matter?  Why can't it just say "a man"?  So, yeah, I don't think that it should say a "German man". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Speyeker (talk • contribs) .
I changed the number of wounded from 28 to 26, as the source says. Trick 13:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch, I converted the link to a reference. --Bruce 13:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Current news, facts always change fast. I changed the reference, but this will be the last time. --Bruce 22:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I noticed 88.134.200.250 tried to remove the incident section but his/her actions were reverted by Royboycrashfan, a recent changes patroller. However, I believe the removal of the incident section should be a point open for discussion. In my personal opinion this incident does indeed not deserve a seperate section, although if someone were to write something on the opening itself, the incident could perhaps be briefly mentioned. It's all pretty current at the moment, I advise you to first let the attention die down. In the meanwhile try discussing it with ProhibitOnions, IsarSteve and other regular contributors. --Bruce 22:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking of letting it stay for maybe 48 hours or so before removing it. It's clearly not the sort of thing that permanently belongs in an encyclopedia article about the train station. Angr (talk) 22:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Au contraire, any mention of the station opening is going to mention this incident, and all of the news reports of the station opening I've seen have described the ceremony as being overshadowed by the incident. In future, we don't have to give any details, but it should still be mentioned; for example, "The station opened after a cosnstruction time of nearly eleven years. It was opened by Chancellor Angela Merkel in May 2005, shortly before the World Cup began. The lavish ceremony was marred by an incident in which an unnstable man stabbed 28 spectators, although there were no fatalities." ...and then move on. This is still one of the most notable cases of someone running amok in recent German history.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 22:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, all mention of it has been removed from the German article as being irrelevant to the train station. Apparently the incident didn't even happen at the station, but in Luisenstraße several blocks away. Angr (talk) 22:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Au contraire.  Show me where in the german wikipedia article this incident is mentioned.  now, i know the germans are fond of sort of sweeping away the ugly parts of their history (Führerbunker, Palast der Republik, banning of the NSDAP), but...i think the importance of the incident is being a little exaggerated if it warrants more than a passing mention in this article.  maybe a split would be worth it, but i dont personally find that such a detailed explanation of what happened is necessary when its only connection to the station is that it happened the same night as the opening in the general area.  82.82.182.91 22:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was the opening ceremony, which spread out quite far around the station, and was the reason all the people were there. The attacks took place in various locations, but it was the fact that there was a big crowd, a distraction (the station and the light show) and lots of noise (the music) that allowed him to get away with stabbing so many people. I agree that it deserves little more than a passing mention, but it's giong to be something people remember in conjunction with the station, and all the media are reporting it this way.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 22:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Incident 

message: The number of platforms when know should be added to Railway station layout.
Tabletop 09:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How Many Platforms 

message: When the Museum at Museum station is Melbourne was closed to make way for a shopping Centre called Melbourne Central, the station was renamed even though it is not "central", the main stations being Spencer Street (now called Southern Cross) and Flinders Street.
Tabletop 09:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melbourne Central 

message: I can't see in the article what the 'Largest rail transportation hub' claim is related to.  Is it number of passengers, area, number of platforms?  makes a cliam that it is Europe's largest crossing station, whatever a crossing station is. 
Anon user 08:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "crossing station" is a literal translation of the German word "Kreuzbahnof" or "Turmbahnhof". This denotes a station where railways from different directions meet on separate levels. (Only?) In the area of former Prussia this a common type of station. Thus, "Europe's largest crossing station" is no predicate really worth mentioning. [Jan, --84.137.40.169 13:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are quite a few cruciform stations in other European countries - for instance Willesden Junction, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, and Warrington Bank Quay (albeit with a closed lower level) are all on the former LNWR main line in England. 82.36.26.229 01:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest rail transportation hub needs defining 

message: Who was the composer of "Symphony of Light"?
-Mardus 13:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Symphony of Light" 

message: Does anyone have a city/railway map showing where the Hauptbahnhof is in Berlin? -- 23:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's one  at :de:Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Maybe someone can bring it over here, though it's in German. Angr (talk) 06:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map? 

message: Hello,
the stabbings created quite a shock in Germany and beyond and here, everyone was discussing whether or not these people could have been infected with the HIV virus.  But afterwards,I never heard anything about it? Did the man's actions really infect other people? Thanks,Evilbu 19:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anything known about the possibly infected victims of the stabbing? 

message: There's a dispute (or may be only a disagreement) between two editors whether Berlin HBf or Leipzig HBf is the largest station in Europe. My question is: 'largest' in what sense ?  Floor/platform area ? Building volume ? The highest number of trains/passengers per day/annum ?  Until this is clarified in the article, there is no clear answer....Jotel 16:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's the largest sum of money wasted, Berlin Hbf wins hands down... ProhibitOnions (T) 16:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

text: In terms of space occupied, Leipzig Hbf is the largest in Europe (83,640 m²). In terms of trains per day, I think it's Clapham Junction in London. The German Wikipedia entry claims Berlin Hbf is both the largest passenger terminal and the largest multi-storey station, but unfortunately they cite no sources, as that statement contradicts the Leipzig one. Counting passengers per day, Berlin Hbf only scores 4th in Germany, so it's a difficult subject really. The best idea probably is to emphasize that it is the largest multi-level station, as _that_ is for sure, and trying to find out whether it is the largest passenger station as well (it might be that Leipzig Hbf is larger because they have an extensive freight yard, but from my personal experience I remember that not being the case...) It's not the most important station of Germany anyhow. ;) (that award goes to Frankfurt Hbf. doco (☏) 19:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest station: in what sense ?  

message: There is no mention of the chief construction engineer Hani Azer .. why ?? Dr B2 (talk) 06:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  where is the construction engineer .. !! 

message: I'm sorry to see that the "examples of use" given above were given any sort of validity. There is a difference between "Berlin's central station" and "Berlin Central Station". The former is just a descriptor; it would be perfectly acceptable to describe Birmingham New Street station as "Birmingham's central station" in a descriptive context. But fine, I'm late, go ahead and move Berlin Gesundbrunnen to Berlin Health Springs Station, completely useless and I hope no one disagrees, but I doubt you'd find gesundbrunnen in an English dictionary either, so wtf is that doing on en.wikipedia really. - filelakeshoe 08:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to read the article on central station and also the fuller debate that was had about this. Your example is different - we are not translating the proper name "Berlin", but the general noun "Hauptbahnhof" as "Central Station". In your example, we would not translate the proper name "Berlin Gesundbrunnen" but would translate "Bahnhof" as "Station". Hope that helps. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hauptbahnof is rather more than a "general noun", it is the proper name and as such appears on signs, timetables etc (in the same way that, say "New Street" appears while "Birmingham's central station" doesn't). Hauptbahnhof is just as much the name of this station as Gesundbrunnen (or New Street, or Union, etc) is part of the name of other stations. Even if we are determined to rid Wikipedia of foreign words, Hbf does not really translate as central station, it means main station. While Berlin Hbf is arguably central, other Hauptbahnhofs are less so. Renaming Hbf to Central creates odd situations in places like Heidelberg, where Heidelberg Altstadt (or is that Old City?) station is more "central" than the Hbf. Wheeltapper (talk) 14:28, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Rid Wikipedia of foreign words"?? Pffffft! Did you look at the article? The German name of the station is both in the opening sentence, and in large type on the second line of the infobox. Kauffner (talk) 17:29, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course I looked at the article. But I also look at the real world, which continues to do its own thing regardless of what Wikipedia says it should be doing. Although I suspect misunderstandings like this will soon be copied by the media using Wikipedia as a reference, and Wikipedia can then cite the same media as a source and thereby create its own reality. So, which stations are we going to declare to be Paris Central, Madrid Central or London Central? Manchester Central will be interesting...Wheeltapper (talk) 09:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Post-move discussion

message: Berlin Hauptbahnhof is in the news today. Let's see how English-language media deals with the name. 
* BBC News: WWII bomb disrupts commute at main Berlin station "the city's main railway station" (it also said Hauptbahnhof in a caption earlier, but the picture has been changed to one of the bomb).
* The Guardian: Second world war bomb defused near Berlin's main railway station "at a building site near the Hauptbahnhof".
* CNN: Experts defuse unexploded WWII bomb in central Berlin "a construction site near the Hauptbahnhof, the central station." Ooh it uses the world central! But only as a description of where it is. 
* Deutsche Welle: World War II bomb interrupts Berlin trains "near Berlin's main train station" ... "a track of land north of the Berlin Hauptbahnhof" 
* Der Spiegel: Rail Service Disruption: WWII Bomb Found Near Berlin's Main Station "The discovery of a World War II bomb near the main train station of Berlin"
* China Daily: WWII bomb found near Berlin's train station "Police cordoned off streets near Berlin's main Hauptbahnhof Railway Station ... traffic disruption as the Hauptbahnhof serves as one of the biggest railway hubs"
* Google news can't find me any reports with the phrase "Berlin Central station".  
The obvious place to seek a more Little Englander viewpoint might be the Daily Mail, but they don't seem to have reported it. However they have previously reported on "a tunnel leading into Berlin's central station" (note no capital) ... "The entrance of the Hauptbahnhof, Berlin's main train station"
So it looks rather like even more WP:reliable sources in the world outside Wikipedia have no problems with a railway station in Germany having a German name, and if they feel the need to elaborate they translate to "main", rather than take a guess at what it might have been called had it been in Britain. 
Wheeltapper (talk) 18:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The latest issue of "Continental Railway Journal" mentions some Hauptbahnhofs. Wheeltapper (talk) 13:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The August 2013 issue of The Railway Magazine has an article on Wuppertal's Schwebebahn which mentions "The next stop is at Hauptbahnhof (Main Railway Station) which serves the city centre too". (The dingle dangle, Quentin Williamson, p35). 20:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Guardian again I’m fighting to save night trains – the ticket to my daughter’s future: "I could take the CNL train from Berlin Hauptbahnof at 00.27 and arrive in London". Wheeltapper (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Economist: "the Paris-to-Berlin sleeper pulled into an early morning Hauptbahnhof station for the last time". The Independent: "snaked and screeched its way into Berlin’s futuristic glass roofed Hauptbahnhof".Wheeltapper (talk) 23:42, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Two World Wars And One World Cup, yet even the British media use the real name

message: maximum 20 words please - on actual proposal
*Oppose. As a proper noun, the name of the station should be capitalized. As a description, it is not capitalized, but that is not a factor. Apteva (talk) 04:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I could see a case for central passenger rail station of Berlin. Though I think such a name would clearly suggest "central" meaning "in the centre". The "central airport" question has come up before - if stations are to have "English" rather than their common names, why not airports? Of course Tempelhof is (was) more central than the current main airport, so we have the same problem as with stations if we don't use the common name.   Wheeltapper (talk) 20:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That gets down the meaning of the word "central", as in "main" or as in "centre" If it means "main", then that's fine, if it means "(geographic) centre", then there's a problem -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 08:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. Personally I'm not yet convinced that "central" is used to mean "main" anywhere other than in the titles of Wikipedia articles on Hauptbahnhofs. Would it even be possible to tell whether a source refers to Berlin Hauptbahnhof as "Berlin's central station" because the author believes that "central" is a synonym for "main", rather than because it is geographically central-ish? It seems that there are few non-Wikipedia references to the main but very-non-central Karlsruhe Hbf as "Karlsruhe central station", with "main" being more common (and Hbf obviously being the commonest name). Was what is now Berlin Ostbahnhof called "Berlin Central" during 1987-98 when it was called Hauptbahnhof? Wheeltapper (talk) 12:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

text:  Except the argument (above) for using "central" rather than following common usage was based on phrases which don't capitalise it: "Berlin's central station" - Spiegel, "Berlin's main train station"-  Deutsche Welle, "Berlin's central station" - BBC, "Berlin's central station" - Daily Telegraph (in fact, do we even know for sure which station these reports are talking about? It doesn't specify. And why do we say Deutsche Bahn, with two evil furrin words, when the BBC mentions  "German national railways"?) . Wheeltapper (talk) 21:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: maximum 20 words please
* Berlin Hauptbahnhof; as per WP:RS, WP:ENGLISH, WP:Commonname, WP:PRECISION and common sense. Even the Daily Mail uses the real name. Wheeltapper (talk) 08:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  So are you saying Wikipedia should not use the media as a source? (in fact, what would be left? Authors aim to sell books, academics aim to publish papers, railway companies want to sell train tickets...) Wheeltapper (talk) 19:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Which naming convention? It would explicitly ignore the conventions in wp:commonname and wp:english (which is about using the name  used in English sources, not about boycotting foreign words). Why is it only the Hauptbahnhofs that attract this passionate desire to create "English" names - why not Reichstag (building), Berlin U-Bahn, Unter den Linden, Alexanderplatz, or any other railway stations in Europe? (at the moment we have the situation where Wikipedia has Hauptbahnhof for tram (etc) stops serving Hauptbahnhofs, but not the actual Hauptbahnhofs!). I really don't see who benefits from a confusing "translated" name when even its supporters admit it is "rarely used by the sources". Wheeltapper (talk) 19:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm talking about the de facto convention to add "railway station" to the proper name of the station which seems fairly widespread on Wikipedia. I don't have strong views about this; I'm just saying that I'd be content with either format - "station" or "railway station" - after the station name. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:52, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The defacto standard is at odds with common disambiguatory practice, which would be Berlin Central (railway station) instead of Berlin Central railway station -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 22:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well you need to discuss that at Wikipedia:WikiProject Railways not here. Bermicourt (talk) 07:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Alternative choice if any

message: I can't help but notice that sources which are being used to try to justify the use of the ambiguous, confusing and inconsistent "Central" instead of the English WP:commonname for Hauptbahnhofs are mostly German sources translated into English (eg airport websites and obscure European ticket agencies), and not English-as-first-language reliable sources. English-as-first-language sources such as The Times, BBC News, The Guardian, The New York Times, CNN, Daily Mail, Lonely Planet, Rough Guides, Frommer's, Thomas Cook European Timetable, Today's Railways, Modern Railways, Railway Gazette International, TripAdvisor, Seat61.com, National Audit Office (United Kingdom) and countless books, plus texts for English speakers wanting to learn German (rather than German speakers learning English) use Hauptbahnhof (meaning literally and practically "main station"), which is also the name used by Deutsche Bahn's (and other) journey planning and information systems (which think Berlin Central is a hotel). Is this the English Wikipedia, or the German-translated-into-English Wikipedia? Wheeltapper (talk) 11:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: To play the broken record one more time: If a publication uses "Hauptbahnhof," but the feels the need to explain it, it suggests that this word is not generally understood by English-speakers. If the New York Times prints something like "Berlin's Hauptbahnhof, the main train station," that does not support the claim that "Berlin Hauptbahnhof" is the common name. In fact, it suggests quite the opposite. Slight translation variants like "Berlin's Central Station," used by not only the New York Times, but also Der Spiegal, do not justify leaving a name in the native language. Kauffner (talk) 12:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, let's not waste any more time on this debate again - it's been thrashed to death. --Bermicourt (talk) 12:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

text:  Once again, you have to fall back on rejecting native English-language sources like a direct quote from the New York Times, in favour of English versions of German sources such as Der Spiegel (don't you mean The Mirror?). Even the British Daily Mail - the house journal of of swivel-eyed Little Englanderism - used Hauptbahnhof when reporting the same story as Der Spiegel!. I doubt many people know which king has a cross, but we don't have an article on "London Central station".Wheeltapper (talk) 13:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

text: Bermicourt, re let's not waste any more time on this debate again - it's been thrashed to death. --Bermicourt (talk) 12:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't resort to personal attacks - it's against Wiki policy and undermines your case. I actually think your main proposal has some merit in trying to identify which English version of the station name English-language sources use. Having scanned hundreds of sources, I have to say there is probably no clear-cut answer - in addition to "Berlin's central station" they also use "Berlin Central Station" and "Berlin central station" and other variants. However, what is not helping a sensible discussion is the attempt to twist your proposal into the old "Central Station" v. Hauptbahnhof debate which is a valid, but separate, discussion and has been thrashed to death i.e. we've had mountains of debate and not reached a consensus. I'm assuming, in good faith, that isn't really where you wanted your proposal to go. Bermicourt (talk) 08:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is a clear-cut answer - native English sources use Hauptbahnhof as the name, and central or main as a description. A simple review of the reliable sources cited will show that. But a couple of people are passionately against "German", and so if we can't use the WP:COMMONNAME then that leaves us with the descriptive terms. Opponents of WP:COMMONNAME can try to shut down discussion, dismiss the sources (eg suggesting we shouldn't be using English-language media), ignore sources (ranging from the Dail Mail to the Guardian, via the New York Times, Modern Railways, Railway Gazette International, Thos Cook, Deutsche Bahn), or misrepresent them (trying to pass off a random user comment on a US forum as being "a major European travel site"), but it won't change the facts (or the Wikipedia guidelines!). Wheeltapper (talk) 13:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: So at a stroke you're ruling out all English sources that aren't "native"? That's a major change to WP:SOURCES that you will need to push through before continuing with that line of argument here. Bermicourt (talk) 18:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  No I am not, and it is rather hard to see how you might think that (is English perhaps not your first language?). I am saying we should follow reliable WP:SOURCES  ("because this is the English-language Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, where English sources of equal quality and relevance are available" - and I reckon English-language newspapers, magazines and books count as pretty good sources). WP:ENGLISH says "Where there is an English word, or exonym, for the subject [which is dubious in the case of Berlin Hbf, but some people argue there is] but a native version is more common in English-language usage [which it clearly is, as English-language news media, books, websites, railway information etc show], the English name should be mentioned but should not be used as the article title." Wheeltapper (talk) 21:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't be facetious - I am English. I just don't agree with your interpretation of the sources which, as we saw at Leipzig Central Station have some pretty powerful authorities all using the English title for the station. But that's not what this proposal is about... or is Kauffner right? Bermicourt (talk) 06:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please can you address the issue of improving the article, rather than just accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being "facetious" or making "personal attacks", or telling people not to participate in the discussion? My WP:SOURCES (see above) show how the name is presented in English-language books, the news media and by organisations like Deutsche Bahn - I'm not relying on vague "powerful authorities" such as user postings on forums. Anyone is free to check them, and see that I am not misrepresenting the sources or disguising what they actually say. Wheeltapper (talk) 11:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

text: Oh and I see you deleted my question below. Such behaviour is unacceptable - see WP:TALKNO - and may lead to a block or ban. Please be careful not to do this in future. Bermicourt (talk) 06:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies for accidentally deleting the question during editing; I had no intention of doing so. At least I didn't edit someone else's comment on a talk page to say something different to what they wrote! Wheeltapper (talk) 11:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

text: User:Bermicourt, simple question: how many sources in Google Books use the present title? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you changing your proposal? Bermicourt (talk) 06:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Bermicourt, no, (though evidently Berlin Central station would be a step in the right direction). Please, how many sources in Google Books use the present title? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: While I would love to believe that native anglophones know what a hauptbahnhof is, I doubt they do. So a translation is probably fitting for this page. Has anyone mentioned that haupt means head or main, not central? Confusion over the use of main or central is manifest at KL sentral, a major interchange that is nowhere near central Kuala Lumpur. Hauptbahnhofs don't have to be central, but they do have to be main.Travelpleb (talk) 19:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, they have, in the very first post to this thread; also in other threads on this page (such as #Hauptbahnhof translation); and at Talk:Central station#Removal of links to central stations in German-speaking countries; probably elsewhere. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: So they have. Isn't that grand? So Berlin Central can nestle loftily with the likes of Exeter central. Wonderful.Travelpleb (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe Exeter St Davids railway station should be in Wikipedia as "Exeter Central Station", to avoid any chance of anglophones confusing it with Exeter Central railway station which is merely called Central and is central, but is not a "Central Station" in this Wikipedia what-Berlin-Hbf-ought-to-be-called-but-isn't sense? And maybe we should also do something about the problem of a station article named after St Pancras, when few people know who he was, or an article using the name of a largely unknown king's now otherwise forgotten cross? New York will also pose a Grand problem of this nature.  Wheeltapper (talk) 15:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

text: Note that The Electrical Journal is about an electrical power station rather than Berlin Hauptbahnhof (which wouldn't be built for another 117 years), while Berlin: The Spatial Structure of a Divided City is talking about plans to rename Berlin Ostbahnhof. Wheeltapper (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

text: See above; also Talk:Central station and some other places. It's quite tedious. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:38, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It would still be helpful if User:Bermicourt could address the repeated question above - how many sources in Google Books use the present title? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  See also the lack of articles named Station of Slavkov u Brna, Rome Spa railway station and New York Central Station. Though there are stations in Blighty with names with foreign origins! Wheeltapper (talk) 13:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this the English Wikipedia, or the German-translated-into-English Wikipedia?

message: In among all the hundreds of miss-hits for "Berlin's central train station" references are there any that actually use the en.wp title? Yes, there are a handful:
# Berlin the Symphony Continues Halverson, ‎Foell - 2004 "If this is the case, then the steel and glass Berlin Central Station.."
# Sustainability and the Design of Transport Interchanges Brian Edwards - 2011 - Page 149 "Berlin Central Station, which opened in 2006, is located.." 
# Germany Real Estate Yearbook 2008 - Page 108 A. Schiller - 2008 "The new Berlin Central Station has 75 ,000 m2 designated to office, hotel and retail.."
# Bridging Urbanities: Reflections on Urban Design  Page 155  Bauerfiend,  Fokdal - 2011 "the area around Berlin's Central Station has remained relatively"
# Structural Glass Facades: A Unique Building Technology - Page 11 Patterson - 2008 "An excellent example of this is the Berlin Central Station train shed"
# The Face of Africa  Chu Ilo "at Berlin Central Train Station"
# 21: 30 Old Compton Fair Blue 6 Feet - Page 137 Marco Villa - 2011 "Sjors and I took an ICE train from Berlin Central Station to Zurich, "
# Toward Zero Carbon: The Chicago Central Area Decarbonization Plan - Page 117 2011 "7 Berlin Central Station, Berlin Funding There is the potential "
# The Electrical Journal - Volume 22 - Page 680 1889 "Engine and Dynamo, Berlin Central Station. (Scale 1 to 48."
# ...any more?
Also in brackets:
# Berlin: The Spatial Structure of a Divided City - Page 15 Thomas Henry Elkins, ‎Burkhard Hofmeister - 1988 " rebuilding operations is apparently to be Hauptbahnhof Berlin (Berlin Central Station). "
Result, there are only a tiny handful of hits for the current en.wp title among 1000s for "Berlin's central station" indicating that Berlin Hauptbahnhof is the English name. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:02, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that The Electrical Journal is about an electrical power station rather than Berlin Hauptbahnhof (which wouldn't be built for another 117 years), while Berlin: The Spatial Structure of a Divided City is talking about plans to rename Berlin Ostbahnhof. Wheeltapper (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Actual count of sources using current title = nine (9) 

message: The name of the station is Berlin Hauptbahnhof, that's a fact. And that's how the article should be named!
In german wikipedia we have Grand Central Terminal and not "Große Zentrale Endstation" (which would be the german translation). "proper names" shouldn't be translated! a×pdeHello! 18:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: See above; also Talk:Central station and some other places. It's quite tedious. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:38, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It would still be helpful if User:Bermicourt could address the repeated question above - how many sources in Google Books use the present title? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  See also the lack of articles named Station of Slavkov u Brna, Rome Spa railway station and New York Central Station. Though there are stations in Blighty with names with foreign origins! Wheeltapper (talk) 13:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: * Deutsche Bahn - the station's owner and Germany's national carrier e.g. 
**Business Travel - News from Deutsche Bahn says "The solar power plant on top of the glass roof of Berlin Central Station has produced around 160,000 kWh a year since 2003..."
**Your perfect connections from the airport directly to your destination at www.bahn.com says "S-Bahn lines S9 and S45, every 10 minutes, Regional-Express/Regionalbahn, every 30 minutes, to Berlin Central Station" and "Regional-Express/Regionalbahn, every 30 minutes, S-Bahn lines S9 and S45, every 10 to 15 minutes, to Berlin Central Station."
:::Except Deutsche Bahn has a dedicated page about the station on the official stations website Station profile > Berlin Hauptbahnhof. This isn't the obscure document above (which I see was produced after the Wikipedia article was moved to the WP:OR name - so could it be a circular reference?), this is the national railway company's own official English-language page on Berlin Hauptbahnhof! And the official DB journey planner, which by definition is aimed at people DB wants as customers, thinks Berlin Central Station is a mistake for a station in the Netherlands.Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You know full well from previous debates that DB use "Central Station" routinely in their business literature and on their website alongside their use of Hauptbahnhof. And you should also know that a) the reference above is not obscure - it's their regular publication for business users, b) it's not a circular reference - DB have used "Central Station" in their publications for at least a decade as cited in earlier discussions and c) the suggestion that this title is WP:OR is farcical when there are hundreds of thousands of online references to it. Bermicourt (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deutsche Bahn 

message: * Station Hauptbahnhof (Central Station) says "Berlin Central Station is located close to the government district in the heart of Berlin. The Central Station is also a regional train station and has a direct link to Berlin's S-Bahn network. From there it takes about 10 minutes to get to Alexanderplatz or Station Zoo by S-Bahn."
::I see you had to go back and delete "Information about Station Hauptbahnhof (Berlin Central Station) including a city map, opening hours, airport buses and left-luggage offices." Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I did it for brevity - the text simply reinforces the correct English translation they use. Thank you for pointing this out! Bermicourt (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Station Hauptbahnhof (Central Station)" ; it is using Hauptbahnhof as the name, Central as a description (as an aside, it would an unusual station which didn't have links to public transport!) Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a different page. But thank you for the example which says in the text "Berlin Central Station is located close to the government district in the heart of Berlin." and the caption under a photo of the Hauptbahnhof sign says... "Berlin Central Station"! Bermicourt (talk) 17:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The City of Berlin 

message: * Berlin Tourism & Kongress: Berlin's leading tourist organization that runs the Visit Berlin website: Berlin Central Station
::Wow! This German website may have an actual example of "Berlin Central Station"! Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  International Berlin organisations and venues 

message: * to / from Berlin-Central station 
::It's different, I suppose - no-one has yet suggested using "Berlin - Central station" instead of Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Of course if one clicks the button, it actually goes to, yes, you've guessed it, "Berlin Hauptbahnhof"! Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Again proving the direct correlation between the two that some are so anxious to disprove. Bermicourt (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  VBB - the Berlin and Brandenburg Transport Authority 

message: * Booking.com: Featured hotels near Berlin Central Station
* Berlin City Tour Car Berlin Central Station]
::Lonely Planet and Rough Guides and Frommer's use Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: They do, and at last we can have a sensible debate about sources. Bermicourt (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tourist companies 

message: * Deutsche Bahn - see above
::Uses Berlin Hauptbahnhof in customer-facing publications. Has a webpage on Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Doesn't recognise Berlin Central Station as a specific place. Railteam, an alliance of major train operators, has a page devoted to "Berlin Hauptbahnhof" Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: My links show otherwise. Yes DB has one webpage on Berlin Hauptbahnhof, but many others and their business publications use Berlin Central. And don't mislead our readers that DB "doesn't recognize Berlin Central" - that's only the routeplanner software which, of course, is only in German. In sum, many of their official publications and web pages use Berlin Central Station - please acknowledge this as I have acknowledged your references. Bermicourt (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Direct quote: "From Berlin Schönefeld Airport there are train connections to Berlin Hauptbahnhof (Central Station)". They clearly realise there is no station called Central. Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That is highly misleading. The very sentence before says "Berlin: from Berlin Tegel Airport there is a frequent bus service to Berlin Central Station." How did you miss that?! And the sentence you quote simply verifies that Hauptbahnhof = "Central Station" - what could be clearer? It's the acceptable English name. It's even capitalized for us. Bermicourt (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

text: Direct quote from that page, which has the title "Location. Berlin Hauptbahnhof..." "Berlin Hauptbahnhof is a relatively new station and Europe's largest rail transfer point. .... Berlin Hauptbahnhof was opened in May 2006..."Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: But notice the title... "Berlin Central Station"! Bermicourt (talk) 17:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rail companies 

message: * Qatar Airways: Rail&Fly Germany - a convenient way to travel to or from the airport 
::"Berlin Central station" (note no capital). Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Irrelevant. It's not Hbf. Bermicourt (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does it name the station? (And Ryanair?! Maybe we should get the page on Charleroi renamed "Brussels South"?!) Wheeltapper (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's there. Bermicourt (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Airlines 

message: User:Bermicourt, at 12:59 to 13:07, 7 August 2013 you notified 5 Users of this RM. Can you explain here your reason for selecting those 5 Users while not notifying editors such as User:Jared Preston and User:filelakeshoe who opposed the move in an earlier RM ? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:08, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Bermicourt, what is your reply to this? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:38, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Bermicourt - if you have the time to repeat yourself with this you have the time, and owe it to other editors, to explain the above. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not aware of WP:CANVASSING. I've often been notified  of movereqs in the past and thought I was simply doing the same. I assumed as long as the notification was neutral (which it was) that was fine. I'm sorry if I was meant to inform everyone, but please crack on and let them know if you wish. The case should stand or fall on the relative merits of sources against WP:COMMONNAME, WP:USEENGLISH and other relevant guidelines. Hope that helps. Bermicourt (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, thanks for explanation, if you didn't know then no problem. Only 1 commented and that has been struck as a sockpuppet. At this point there doesn't seem to be any need to also notify the other editors who supported Hauptbahnhof before, as the above is pretty near a WP:SNOW result even without them. 18:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:CANVASSING]]

message: Whilst I accept the result of the recent move request to Berlin Hauptbahnhof, I have been trying to find an accurate form of words to reflect the widespread English use of Berlin Central, backed by sources, but each time my edits are being reverted or modified to change the sense. I wish to avoid an edit war, so I am raising the issue here for discussion.
I believe there is still a case for recording real English usage in the lede. An admittedly quick and dirty review of online sources reveals the following statistics based on the exact words shown in all languages (i.e. no filtering to give English sources only and no distinction being made for capitalization):
*"Berlin Hauptbahnhof": 820k online hits, 3,440 books
*"Berlin Central Station": 953k online hits, 4,320 books
*"Berlin Main Station": 256k online hits, 120 books
*"Berlin Main Train Station": 141k online hits, 136 books
*"Berlin Central Train Station": 85k online hits, 34 books
*"Berlin Central Railway Station": 153k online hits, 92 books
*"Berlin Main Railway Station": 221k online hits, 40 books
:The point is that, apart from Berlin Hauptbahnhof which is the new title, Berlin Central Station appears to be head and shoulders the most common alternative name used and ought to be given credit in the lede, without any caveat about "translation" or "some sources". There may also be a case for "Berlin Main Station", probably caveated with "some sources also use...". But, no question, Berlin Central Station ought to be there. --Bermicourt (talk) 19:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  Assessment comment 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified