Talk:Emily Thornberry

message: This page needs a photo Matthewfelgate 13:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo

message: Could somebody explain the background to the charge of "snobbery"? 
The picture shows a white van, English flags, and is subtitled "Rochester". (No actual person is shown.)
What was the objection to this picture?
* that it equates English nationalism (symbolised by the flag), a positive concept, with the negative stereotype of the white van man ("selfish, inconsiderate, mostly working class and aggressive", according to wikipedia's article)
* that it equates the white van, symbolising the positive idea of an "independent tradesperson, such as a plumber or locksmith" (again according to wikipedia), with the Flag of England, considered a symbol for the far right, and therefore negative?
* that it says "all people in Rochester (at least those not voting for my party) are like this white van person" (selfish, working class etc, see above)
* that it says "all people in Rochester (at least those not voting for my party) are right wing nationalists" 
* that Thornberry wrote Rochester even though it was Strood. (Only about 2 km away, but on the other side of the river.  Is there a rivalry between the two cities?)
I am not taking sides here.   Apparently everybody agrees that the picture was offensive.  But as a non-British person I am  confused and would like to understand.  Thank you. 
(Ideally, do not answer here; rather, add a sentence or two to the article itself.)
--Austrian (talk) 20:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: As a British person, I found it as baffling as you, and an entirely manufactured controversy. But I guess out of the options you listed, the third and fourth come closest to the substance of the complaints. It wasn't that the picture itself was directly offensive, so much that it was thought to represent a stereotyped view of the 'working class' and the type of person who votes for UKIP. (Despite the fact that it was a real house, and the owner wasn't a UKIP voter.) The media response itself arguably represented a stereotyped view of politicians (and Labour politicians in particular) as out-of-touch elitists who look down on 'ordinary people'. Robofish (talk) 17:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would say the first and third reasons. -- TrottieTrue (talk) 03:08, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Snobbery (and resignation, Dec 2014) 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: We have a controversy section so this why should not the controversy about her tweet go there?  If you are going to be consistent remove the entire controversy section.  Just removing one particular controversy seems inconsistent.  Please explain if rereverting 9and50swans (talk) 17:33, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Controversy sections are regarded as bad practice despite being quite common on not-unusually-controversial politicians' pages, and integrating this one into the main article (the "campaigns" section should go too) is on my to-do list. Repeating stuff that's already in the main article in a section which shouldn't really exist isn't really helpful I'm afraid. Ultimately the objective of a Wikipedia article is to provide a biography of the subject, not a readily accessible list of criticisms (or indeed campaigns) Dtellett (talk) 21:14, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  controversy section 

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message: Emily Thornberry is officially Emily, Lady Nugee. That is a fact and it is her name. It should say "Emily Anne, Lady Nugee" known as "Emily Thornberry". Difference with other female politicians such as as Harriet Harman, Yvette Cooper, Priti Patel etc is that their husbands do not have honorific titles and therefore using Mrs John Dromey or Mrs Edward Balls would be wrong. Any spouse of a knight, life peer, earl, duke, prince or whatever would be addressed in the same way. Saying that she's known as 'Emily Thornberry' and not 'Lady Nugee' (just as Boris Johnson goes by Boris Johnson not Alexander Johnson) is the correct way forward.--109.156.134.58 (talk) 16:48, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed before. N-HH talk/edits 16:50, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: And the conclusion was wrong. It is Lady Nugee.--109.156.134.58 (talk) 19:31, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: We work by consensus.  See also WP:POINT.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:34, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah but it is still wrong. You wouldn't put 'Kate Middleton' on the Duchess of Cambridge's page. Or Boris Johnson. It is factually inaccurate to put Emily Thornberry and not Emily, Lady Nugee. Inaccurate.--109.156.134.58 (talk) 19:56, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I should like reiterate the point made by Ghmyrtle. Consensus against this change has been established. Please do not engage in continuously reverting to reinstate your edits, this is a live article, and doing so is seen as edit warring. We would very much like to make the live article as best as possible, so instead, if you wish to pursue this, discuss the change on this talk page to understand why there is opposition to what you are trying to achieve. Rather than reverting edits, please seek to find a resolution which works toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. — Iambic Pentameter (talk / contribs) 22:55, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the other editors. A consensus has been established on this. If you keep reverting without changing the consensus to favour your argument you will face sanction for edit-warring and vandalism AusLondonder (talk) 23:50, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: And of course, it's a consensus based on solid reasoning, before we all get told we're colluding to unfairly suppress information. She does not use the formal title "Lady Nugee". I'm not sure I've ever seen a third-party source refer to her as such. Hence this page does not at the top; although it does, correctly, mention the existence of the title in the main body. A WP page is not going to set out as a main form of address a name that is virtually never used, just to allow some people to try and make a rather silly political point. N-HH talk/edits 11:36, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Then remove 'Lady Major' from Norma Major's profile. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Her title is Lady Nugee and she has a title due to her marriage to Sir Christopher Nugee. It's not a political point, it's about accuracy.--109.157.2.197 (talk) 05:04, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please do not re-insert that information against consensus. AusLondonder (talk) 05:20, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's shown that no one ever calls Norma Major by her "Lady Major" courtesy title – which, like this one, she only acquired, nominally, through marriage rather than it being something formally bestowed on her and accepted by her as an individual – it should be removed from the opening sentence there too, rather than that page being treated as an example to emulate. And even that page doesn't use the title as the very first name mentioned, before suggesting her actual name is some sort of pseudonymn that she is "known as", which is what you are trying to do here. And you know full well it's a political point being made here about perceived snobbery. Please don't plead innocence quite so disingenuously. N-HH talk/edits 10:30, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a political point about snobbery. She is Lady Nugee. How people percieve that is for them but it's the truth. It should clearly what her full anme is which is 'Emily, Lady Nugee' and then known as 'Emily Thornberry'. --109.156.133.176 (talk) 22:42, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: When I talked about perceived snobbery, I was referring to your perception of her, and the fact that you rather transparently want to make her look like a posh snob by highlighting a formal title neither she nor anyone else ever uses, and which she only has due to her marriage. By definition, if you're not ever called something by anyone, it's not a name. Please return to the Guido Fawkes comment boards. N-HH talk/edits 11:19, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

text: This issue seems to have re-emerged.  If the disruption continues, a return to page protection might be necessary.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:49, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

text: It may be best to protect this page indefinitely. Lots of people absolutely loathe ET - conservatives think she's a hypocritical virtue signaller, leftists think she's a metropolitan snob contemptuous of Labour voters, Corbynistas think her Brexit positioning cost Labour the 2019 general election, etc etc. There is bound to be further questionable editing and downright vandalism for the forseeable future given her continuing high profile. --Ef80 (talk) 15:20, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Lady Nugee 

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message: The box in the top right-hand corner says that Emily Thornberry is shadowing Damian Green. Many apologies if something has been lost on me which is obvious to other people, but since Emily Thornberry is Shadow Foreign Secretary at the time of typing, should this article say that she is shadowing Boris Johnson?Vorbee (talk) 19:56, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: That part of the infobox is about her being Shadow First Secretary of State. This was previously Damien Green but the position is currently vacant, as the infobox says. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 21:24, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Shadow Foreign Secretary

message: This article could mention how Emily Thornberry stood for the Labour leadership campaign in 2020, but was eliminated from the race after failing to secure enough nominations (see www.bbc.co.uk/news/ - politics). Vorbee (talk) 07:23, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Eliminated from Labour leadership campaign

message: In her very own words as recorded in Hansard, she is an Irish citizen and holder of an Irish passport. On first reading the second part of that sentence may seem superfluous, however there are perhaps many Members of Parliament that have dual or multiple citizenships, but do not necessarily hold additional passports. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090714/debtext/90714-0014.htm 90.242.58.56 (talk) 13:00, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: So?  If she is legally an Irish citizen by virtue of her father's birthplace, she is entitled to an Irish passport.  It's not noteworthy that she has claimed one.  It's certainly not sufficiently noteworthy to be mentioned in the lead, where, without some form of clarification, a casual reader might interpret it as in some way unpatriotic for a British politician - which would be completely unwarranted.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:46, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that really for you to unilaterally declare? You're quite right there are millions in Great Britain alone that can avail Irish citizenship yet most do not (the Irish Govt estimates 1:10 in GB so 6.7 million). For a shadow foreign secretary to be a citizen of another country is not for me or you to judge. The facts are that her father was born in Belfast, she was an Irish citizen pre the Belfast Agreement and the subsequent Irish constitutional and legislative changes. Her own words in Hansard show she is proud, and has no intention to hide it. I agree that it should follow the sentence about her father. I'm not sure you should be so judgemental nor jump to conclusion about an editor's intentions. I think you've also misunderstood the point of "holding a passport" as Emily Thornberry had no choice whatsoever where her father was born, nor the laws of citizenship in the Republic of Ireland, but she did choose to register her intent to be an Irish citizen and to hold an Irish passport whilst a Member of Parliament and shadowing one of the "Great Offices of State". 90.242.58.56 (talk) 19:57, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Your statement is factually incorrect.  Anyone with a parent born in Ireland - any part of the island - is automatically an Irish citizen.  " If you were born outside of Ireland, you are automatically an Irish citizen by birth if either one of your parents was born in Ireland and was entitled to Irish citizenship.".  There is nothing odd, or noteworthy, about such a citizen applying for an Irish passport.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:03, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Au contraire Sir, she became an Irish citizen under the original principal act, Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1956 https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1956/act/26/enacted/en/print#sec7; not the 2001 amending act that you quote. My original statement is thus factually correct, save she is no longer the current Shadow Foreign Secretary. If pedantry is the order of the day then I also see in Wikipedia's own style guide regarding biographies that it is valid to mention nationality in the lead section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Biographies'_first_sentence Given the context of the original reference, in that she was in Parliament supporting a Labour colleague attempting to bring parity for post-1949 Irish citizens born in the Republic to access British citizenship - I would surmise that is noteworthy, and not the least bit trivial! For the avoidance of doubt, she and/or her late father took  active steps for her to become an Irish citizen and to possess a passport hence the original phrasing to set her apart from the estimated 6.7million people in GB who are also entitled to Irish citizenship but for whatever reason do not avail. 90.242.58.56 (talk) 07:37, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The legislation that you quote states "Every person is an Irish citizen if his father or mother was an Irish citizen at the time of that person's birth".   So, where is your evidence that "she and/or her late father took  active steps for her to become an Irish citizen"?  She would have applied for a passport, but there was no need for her to "apply" for citizenship - it was an automatic entitlement.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:55, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I quoted section 7 whereas you have chosen to quote section 6 paragraph 2 in isolation. "7.—(1) Pending the re-integration of the national territory, subsection (1) of section 6 shall not apply to a person, not otherwise an Irish citizen, born in Northern Ireland on or after the 6th December, 1922, unless, in the prescribed manner, that person, if of full age, declares himself to be an Irish citizen or, if he is not of full age, his parent or guardian declares him to be an Irish citizen. In any such case, the subsection shall be deemed to apply to him from birth." We seem to have gone done a rabbit hole where you have unilaterally decided that there is something negative and improper which could be misconstrued by a "casual reader". In her own words she is of dual heritage, and proud of it and at the time she applied it was not merely an automatic entitlement. 90.242.58.56 (talk) 11:36, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Paragraph 7 (1)  does not make any reference to paragraph 6 (2), which is what applies in her case.  She was born in Surrey, not Northern Ireland, so paragraph 6 (1) does not apply.  It applied to her father, Cedric Thornberry (born in Belfast in 1936), but whether that is worthy of note on his page is not a matter for this discussion.  I'm sure she is proud of her "background of dual heritage", as she said, but that does not mean that it needs to be mentioned in the lead section here.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:57, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Interestingly and for more context, her father became an Irish citizen in 1967 https://www.dib.ie/biography/thornberry-cedric-henry-reid-a10202, after his daughter's birth in Guildford in 1960. Logical reasoning would surmise that if he were subject to "Formalities to be complied with in certain cases", by virtue of his birth in Northern Ireland; then his daughter born outwith Ireland would be subject to formalities rather than simple application. If anything this shows that Emily has tried to continue her father's work in civil rights vis-a-vis Irish, Commonwealth and other settled residents. Probably more worthy than the short sentence mentioning her membership of a trade union. 90.242.58.56 (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a lot of original research (= guesswork) in that.  The key point is whether her Irish citizenship is sufficiently noteworthy for the lead, and I doubt that it is.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:55, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish citizenship and holder of an Irish passport