Talk:Ellery Queen

message: How about changing "The Queen novels were the epitome of the classic "fair play" mystery" to "The Queen novels were the epitome of the classic whodunnit mystery"?
:Because not all whodunnits are fair play. Fair Play is a specific type of whodunnit which lays out all the clues fairly for the reader. --khaosworks 00:13, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  March 2005 

message: This article is in both :Category:Fictional writers and :Category:Pseudonyms, I feel this is misleading and redundant. Even if the pseudonym has a fictional backstory, it should be more than sufficient to put them in :Category:Pseudonyms, unless the name is also used for a character that acualy appear in a work of fiction and is also a writer, in wich case the double categorisation would be apropriate. Please post any comments to Category talk:Fictional writers so we don't have to repeat ourselves over multiple article's talk pages (I will post this wherever I find such double categorised articles). --Sherool 30 June 2005 14:18 (UTC)
:This particular article actualy is a good example of one that belong in both categories. Guess I should have taken the time to read it all before posting my "stock message" here. --Sherool 30 June 2005 18:27 (UTC)
:* No, it's not such an example (and it's sweet that our edits fall so close together without my having known of yours before i removed
:*: Queen, Ellery
::from the article and coming to this talk page): The article deserves Cat "Fictional detectives" and some Cat  like "Pseudonymous authors"; i think i recall :Category:Pseudonymous people a long time back.  A fictional author is a character in a work of fiction who is presented in that work as being an author.  But this is merely a case of a fictitious char's name and a real but pseudonymous author's name coinciding.
::--Jerzy·t 1 July 2005 08:52 (UTC)
::*That was my original possition also, but asuming what was posted in Category talk:Fictional writers is corect (I am not familiar with the authors, the series or the character, so I'm just repeating what I've been told), it does seem to fit into both categories (pseudonums and fictional writers). True it is a case of Pseudonym and character name  converging (wich is why I wanted it removed in the first pace), but acording to what I was told the character was both a detective and a writer as well. The article could make that clearer, but if you read it carefully it does say "Ellery himself was a detective story writer, a snobbish, almost priggish intellectual who investigated and solved crimes solely because he found them stimulating" (emphasis mine). It is a bit ambgous, but I think that portion is about the character Ellery, in wich case it support the argument that the character was also a writer, hence the double cat. --Sherool 1 July 2005 09:54 (UTC)
::::Yes, that's correct. Ellery Queen the psuedonym belongs to Fred Dannay and Manfred Lee, who wrote detective stories. Ellery Queen the fictional character is also a writer of detective stories in those novels. --khaosworks July 1, 2005 11:50 (UTC)
::::* Omigosh, there i go again, assuming a limit to the mental perversity of the skilled human -- and assuming from that the dispensibility of some details of the article.
::::: Closing the barndoor (bard door?), i've extended a sentence in the descrip at :Category:Fictional writers:
:::::: Not to be confused with real people who are writers of fiction; not even in the case of real people who write fiction under a pseudonym: the writer and the work are both real, even though the name is false.
::::: (The italics, added here, identify the new text.)  Seeing it, others may not be so quick to assume there are editors who don't grasp the point. 
::::: And more to the point, i'm adding a comment next to the Cat tag: i erred; i've put the tag back, and perhaps made it harder for another misguided editor to do what i did.
:::::--Jerzy·t 2 July 2005 04:28 (UTC)
::::::It should be "fictional writers" and "fictional detectives", because in The Origin Of Evil, he is an author that begins doing detective work. Or was this already settled? I'm to lazy to read this whole section so I dunno if this is over now or anything. - 97.102.154.152 (talk) 19:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorisation 

message: I've got the ball rolling with a couple of their works, plus some writing about them in the opening paragraph. They did dozens of anthologies – how about someone putting them in?  I myself only have a couple of them at home... Hayford Peirce 01:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anthologies 

message: The bibliography section has missed:
http://www.goodreads.com/series/54741-ellery-queen-jr-mystery-stories  (Mark32 2000 (talk) 15:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  September 2011 

message: I'm new here, and if I've done this incorrectly, I apologize.  My authority for the facts presented is that I actually have copies of these films, although I lazily verified the information using IMDB rather than calling up and freezing the appropriate screenshot.  I'm going to provide further references for paperback novelizations of a few of the films as soon as I get my copy of Hubin back so that I can have an accurate bibliographic citation; they were not apparently written by the cousins.  The Chabrol film is a fairly accurate adaptation of the novel, Ten Days' Wonder (starring Orson Welles and Tony Perkins), lacking only the Ellery Queen character; there is a paperback tie-in edition with photographs, so the link is assured.
I'm not sure how much more information would be appropriate to add.  I can certainly provide a list of the episodes of the Jim Hutton TV show.  If a more experienced contributor feels I've gone too far already, a word to the wise will be sufficient.  
Accounting4Taste 01:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Chabrol film of Ten Days' Wonder does not lack the Ellery Queen character, any more than Satan Met a Lady, a 1936 film adaptation of The Maltese Falcon, lacks the Sam Spade character. All the character names are changed, but there is a character who is as much Ellery as the ones played by Welles and Perkins are Diedrich Van Horn and son. I'll get the actor and character names from IMDb and add. Ted Watson (talk) 21:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not that I disagree with you -- I welcome this addition if it can be backed up with a reference.  I'm afraid IMDB isn't considered a reliable source as far as Wikipedia is concerned, and it doesn't speculate on the Michel Piccoli character's identity anyway.  But I suggest that since the character is not actually called Ellery Queen, there needs to be a third-party source that confirms that the identification is indeed the case. Accounting4Taste:talk 21:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added list of films 

message: Although I actually tend to agree with the opinion presented about the clumsy and pretentious nature of the religious symbolism, it's both unreferenced and NPOV, as I understand it.  I tried to find a citation in a number of reference sources but could not, and hope the person who wrote this will oblige.  There are a number of NPOV problems -- for instance, calling the early books "mere" puzzles, unreferenced assertion about certain books being "classics", etc., and I would like to know which commentator's opinions these are, if they're not original research.  
Please note that I do not disagree with the bibliographic attributions for the ghosted books, and I'll be confirming them with a citation from Hubin shortly (when I dig out my copy from the basement).    
Accounting4Taste 03:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the material about symbolism, since I cannot find any reference to back it up, and the suggestion that Ellery Queen's last name was originally Bone for the same reason.  Also I've been creating pages for the novels one by one as I get time. Accounting4Taste 18:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looking for sources for opinion material 

message: The main article is getting overly long and something must be split out of it to its own page. I'm hereby asking for suggestions as to what that might be.  I offer for consideration the idea of creating an article called something like Ellery Queen in other media and moving the material for television, radio and movies there (and also adding material about comics, which is missing).  There's also the possibility of Ellery Queen books by other authors being a new page.  Suggestions and comments are welcome.  Accounting4Taste 19:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've created Ellery Queen (house name) since it seemed most logical to split out work by others to a separate page.  If the original page grows, I'll look at creating "Ellery Queen in other media".  Accounting4Taste 23:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page length 

message: I left this comment on your user page, but it appears to have been an unintentional casualty of the activity there.  I assume this page is on your watchlist and since we're talking about the article may as well continue the conversation here.  My remark on Levin:
: If the book isn't available from a library I'd ask yourself the question: is this a book I'd enjoy reading anyways?  Looks like you can get a copy for under $30 on Amazon.  It's pretty highly-touted.  Janet Maslin likes it.   If you think you would enjoy the book regardless of Wikipedia, I say go for it.  If you wouldn't enjoy it and you have to choose between buying the book and buying dinner... it's not a make-or-break sort of thing.  Looks like the library I use has online access to Clue after 2004.  So I can track down the Clue article mentioned in references (Wheat 2005).  Probably getting ahead of myself a bit though as I haven't read the article closely yet. --JayHenry (talk) 01:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the comment was regrettably mulched by a vandal, one more vandal-ly than most, so thanks for putting the comment here.  I'm going to get the book because I'd enjoy reading it regardless of Wikipedia, and because I have the bad habit of always buying reference books so as to have them when they're wanted.  I'll look forward to hearing what you have to say about the Clues edition (I think they devoted an entire issue to articles about Queen).  Accounting4Taste:talk 03:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Accounting4Taste 

message: My schedule has cleared up a bit, so – hoping that I don't step on the esteemed toes of Mr.  and that your request is still pending – here are some thoughts on the article as it currently exists.
First off, kudos on your obvious hard work – this is clearly an important topic, and the article is generally well-written. Now to specifics.
* Having three sets of names for two people in the lead is mighty confusing. My suggestion would be to introduce Ellery Queen and then the names the two men were most well-known as. Then, in the first paragraph of the article proper, give us their birth names (assuming their aliases were more common). 
* I've done some copyediting as I go. Please check and make sure I don't hurt the spirit of any sentences or cause anything to be incorrect.
* I would put the sentence: Movies, radio shows, and television shows have been based on their works. later in the lead. (For literature articles, I recommend the following: Give general info, then a very brief bio, then style/theme info, then reception/legacy. See Mary Wollstonecraft for a good example.)
* Extended quotes generally don't work well in the lead. Stick to summary and, if you feel they're really important, include the two long quotes elsewhere in the article. (I'd say the second quote is valuable; the first could easily be – should, in my opinion – paraphrased.)
* The TOC is very wide, owing to "5.6 Novels attributed to Ellery Queen/Barnaby Ross/Ellery Queen Jr. but written by other authors". I'd shorten it to "Novels attirubted to Queen by other authors".
* If there are no pages (or won't be any time soon) on Dannay and Lee, maybe this should have biographical info? What do you think? Maybe JayHenry could sound in here?
* "Later the cousins took a sharper view of Vance, Manfred Lee calling him, with typical vehemence, 'the biggest prig that ever came down the pike'." This sort of thing is better done as follows: Paraphrase the first part, then include the quote from Dannay/Lee (a great quote). It's best to include the exact wording from third-party sources only when it's really well-phrased.
* "irascible" is a bit POV – it's a bit of an opinion about Sergeant Velie. There's probably a more neutral way to describe him. (Focus on actions as much as possible, rather than adjectives.)
* When including quotes from critics like "The rare distinction of the books is that…", it's good to provide the source in the sentence itself: 'As critic Julian Symons notes: "The rare distinction of the books is that…"'
* As early as possible, I'd suggest explaining how the dynamic of character and author being one person is presented in the novels. Are they written in first person? Is it just something the reader must "go with"? This may be explained in a part of the article I haven't read yet; if so, you might want to move it up, since it's a question I've been pondering since I started reading.
More to come! – Scartol • Tok 18:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assorted revision notes 

message: I seem to recall seeing or hearing or reading where Dannay & Lee actually wrote "The Roman Hat Mystery" for a writing compition. They won the compition but never got paid for some reason or another and ended up publishing it and creating a legend. Can anyone confirm or deny? This seems important enough to be included in the article.Hx823 (talk) 22:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You can read all about that in the first paragraph of this section: Ellery Queen#The Character of Ellery Queen! --JayHenry (talk) 22:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:   duh!!!!!Hx823 (talk) 15:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins Of "The Roman Hat Mystery" 

message: This article includes far too many subjective statements.  Even if subjective statements are cited, they must not be confused with objective fact, and deserve a place in the article only if they are noted as subjective opinions, and put into a broader context.  Minaker (talk) 01:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  too many subjective statements 

message: Ｉf I'm right, 2 stories were adapted into the 1975 Tv series, not only the pilot. can someone confirm or deny me? B3430715 (talk) 20:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "The Adventure of the Mad Tea Party" is based on a short story but I can't say for sure that any of the others are.  209.53.143.56 (talk) 18:36, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Television 

message: Someone created a page for Kill as Directed and added that novel to the list of Ellery Queen novels.  While it was one of many novels published under the name Ellery Queen, it does not seem to be any different from the others, does not seem to feature Ellery or his father, and I cannot find any source suggesting that it was really written by Dannay and Lee.  My inclination is to remove it from the list of authentic Queen novels, but I would like to hear from anyone who has definitive information about this book. Rick Norwood (talk) 23:54, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kill as Directed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ellery Queen (house name) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 05:16, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress