Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive 1

message: DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between August 2004 and November 2005, basically the material posted before the article Cyberpunk made FA.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Anville 14:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

message: The page repeats itself about four times...just thought you should know.
: STFU OR I'LL PUNK YOU! -  --Cyberman 03:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that doesn't soung good. Also because it's already listed down as a TV show entry. I'll remove it from the list of films. – Kaonashi 15:50, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old talk 

message: The list of cyberpunk books is going to get long, if all of them are listed. Perhaps it would be better to list cyberpunk authors and specific books by particular authors if the rest of their works don't fit the genre. Another option might include pushing the book (and movie and tv) lists onto a new page(cyberpunk media, or somesuch).
Steven.karas 17:38, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book list overhaul 

message: I have moved the lists of cyberpunk works to a new page, called List of cyberpunk works.  (I spent a long time thinking up that name, I'll have you know.)  This is on the theory that right now, the main article needs coherent sections on Themes, History and so forth more than it needs a catalog of "all the works various random people think are cyberpunk".  I believe that having our definitions set out in a clear and comprehensible way will make the debates over including particular works much easier to resolve.
I have also merged the "Further developments" material into the "History" section, for reasons which should be apparent enough.
It's a long way from FA status, people, but such an achievement is not impossible.
Anville 18:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganization 

message: I had removed Nine Inch Nails from the list of cyberpunk bands, and User:Aeonite put it back, citing "numerous cyber elements and imagery in music: The Becoming "I beat my machine, it's inside of me", WISH video's Thunderdome images, etc."  OK.  Sounds fine to me.  However, this makes me think that the band list should live at List of cyberpunk works, for the same reason that the books and movies are now listed there instead of in the main article.
How about a paragraph detailing the cyberpunk elements of NiN?  That would certainly be more meaningful than a bullet point, anyway, and it would put the electrofunk discussion in a wider context.
Anville 17:21, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Band list and Nine Inch Nails 

message: :William Gibson's prose, too dense for novice or casual readers, was more appealing to academics...
This is a direct paraphrase of the lecture notes cited in the footnote, which the article had previously quoted directly.  See the revision as of 10:30, 16 September 2005.
Anville 08:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replies to hidden queries 

message: I'm un-italicizing the quotations, as per the Manual of style.  Most of these quotations include emphasized text of their own (book titles, etc.), so even disregarding the Manual's instructions, I think these quotations read more smoothly when they are not fully italicized throughout.
Anville 09:09, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotation style 

message: In preparation for FAC am attempting to fix all the dates in the article to be consistent with the Wikipedia Mannual of Style.  This will include de-linking years unless they are part of a date.  Johntex\talk 22:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dates

message: I just noticed this was a FA candidate so I thought I'd add a note here.  I made some changes to the 3rd or 4th para under "Style".  The analytical notes about Case were factually inaccurate when they stated that he is affected by factors "outside his control."  I don't think this is a mere semantic issue.  Case is not an epic hero who bravely endures the unexpected; he makes a free decision to engage in criminal activity, then to betray his partners, and is forced to deal with the consequences.  This is the essence of the cyberpunk protagonist, and I felt the original statement was misleading.  I also added the brief mention of Clint Eastwood, as his Man With No Name character is widely known even by people who aren't big fans of the Western genre, and IMHO provides a reasonable comparison for those who have never heard of cyberpunk.  I think Gibson's use of "console cowboy" justifies this comparison. Simishag 20:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Style & ''Neuromancer''

message: In two places the term "biopunk" is used especially in reference to Di Flippo's writing.  I have seen "ribofunk"  much more commonly used - see for example Sterling's recent collection "Visionary in Residence" and his discription of a story ("The Scab's Progress") that is a collaboration between Di Flippo and him.  Note: I would have rather seen "ribofunk" exclusively used, but out of respect I left "biopunk" also in place. 24.183.236.246 01:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Biopunk or Ribofunk?

message: In the section on Film and Television, it says:
"Several of Philip K. Dick's works have been adapted to the silver screen, with cyberpunk elements typically becoming dominant; examples include Back To The Future II (1989), Demolition Man (1993), Timecop (1994), Twelve Monkeys (1995), Minority Report (2002), and Paycheck (2003)"
What Dick work is BTTF II based on?--ragesoss 19:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Back to the Future II in the list of Dick-based cyberpunk?

message: "William Gibson has also been adapted: Johnny Mnemonic (1995) was not successful, but detailed Gibson's world rather faithfully."
Having seen the movie and read the story (Chapter 1 of the "Burning Chrome" compilation,) I have to disagree, but I feel it would be a bit hasty to just delete it without discussion.
Basically, the movie took a page or two from a ~20-page story, then stretched it to feature length and crammed it with filler... The world was de-cyberpunked and sanitized to a more or less contemporary non-fiction state. In the end, the movie bore more than a coincidental resemblance to the original story, but that's hardly a faithful representation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuchikoma (talk • contribs) 2005-11-29T15:56:12
* It's been a while since I've seen the movie, and it certainly took some creative license with Gibson's story, but the core of the dystopian world described in the story is still there in the film.  I don't really see how one could consider The Free State of New Jersey "contemporary", or the sentient dolphin "non-fiction."  Regardless of critical acclaim (or lack thereof), both the story and the movie are classic examples of cyberpunk fiction. Simishag 01:18, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Johnny Mnemonic 

message: there is a great deal of non-NPOV editorializing in this article as it currently stands. I'm making several changes which should neutralize the tone of the article a bit. most specifically, as it currently stands, there is a lot of "Most critics say" or "critics agree that" stuff going on that is specifically editorial. For example, if you want to say that some critics think that the new wave writers of the sixties were more innovative than the cyberpunk writers, that's fine, but you need to sight a source and not explain it as though it were received wisdom or common knowledge, and confine it to the section specifically set aside for criticism.JFQ 19:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  editorializing 

message: Where can I find out more about cyberpunk as a fasion style, I saw a girl today whering lots of neon, false dreadlock (with neon woven in) chucky shoes, lots of peircig , I would like to find out more about the origins of this as a sub-culture Back ache 18:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fashion

message: I'm sorry, but the sentence:
 
"Unlike New Wave Science Fiction, which featured the importation of stylistic techniques and concerns that already existed in literature and culture at large, cyberpunk originated in the science fiction genre first before gaining mainstream exposure" 
is at least both rather unclear in execution and contains redundant clauses, and at worst fallacious in its intended claim. What, precisely, is this contributor attempting to say? The two clauses in the sentence seem to have been linked as an attempt to highlight a contrast by the nature of their semantic symmetry, but it is not actually clear that they are discussing the same issue. By its association with the first clause, the second clause seems to imply that New Wave  Science Fiction did not represent an evolution of SF per se, but rather was literature that became SF after "gaining mainstream exposure". Generally, there appears to be a peculiar circularity in the second clause regarding the "origin" of Cyberpunk. Furthermore, it appears to contain a rather redundant claim: I would have thought that if something "originates" somewhere, then by definition it does so in that place "first". Regarding the first clause, is it actually the case that Cyberpunk, "Unlike New Wave Science Fiction" did not "import" "stylistic techniques" or "concerns that already existed in literature and culture at large"? Anybody who has actually read, for example, Gibson's collection "Burning Chrome" would hesitate to agree to the former claim (eg. the non-linear chronology in "Fragments of a Hologram Rose"). Regarding the assertion about Cyberpunk not "Importing" pre-existing cultural "concerns", surely this contributor is not seriously attempting to claim that Cyberpunk came out of an artistic and social vacuum? I would have edited this passage myself, but I am honestly not entirely clear that I understand what, precisely, the original contributor intended. Rather than impose my own views regarding the stylistic differences and origins of New Wave and Cyberpunk respectively, I was hoping that perhaps the original writer could revise this passage. 
Dusksailor 13:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening Section 

message: I don't understand some of the edits you made. Several of them are rather significant.
--There wasn't anything wrong with the statement in the lead paragraph
--Postnational settings aren't necessarily a defining characteristic of cyberpunk, nor is urban decay.
--GitS:SAC isn't that typical of an example of postcyberpunk, even though it may fit into the category. It also isn't particularly prominent in the category, and is also a series adaptation of the more popular movie.
--There wasn't much reason to remove the explanation of Neuromancer, as it fits under the literature category.
Xombie 10:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 64.132.236.33's edits

message: Forgive my status of being a malcontent, but...
I have a hard time swallowing the line stating that cyberpunk has been featured in "Computer games, board games and role-playing games (such as Paranoia)"...  If you've ever played Paranoia, I can't fathom "cyberpunk" having anything to do with it.  Heck, the entire White-Wolf game line has more cyberpunk!  
Paranoia is a game based upon the concept of "mostly unrestrained silliness" in laymans terms.  All which is cyberpunk is rooted in "dark, grittty future".  Let me tell you friends, there is nothing dark or gritty about being killed by scrubbots.  Paranoia assumes you will die in 6 ridiculous ways every adventure.
At any rate, could I assume that there would be no objections to simply replacing the reference to Paranoia with another game which actually is cyberpunk?
I'm thinking Shadowrun would be an easy and logical choice, although the prevalence of magic doesn't really fit in with a classic definition of the genre, which brings to mind Cyberpunk 2020, which more tightly fits the ideal.
I'll ask here before correcting the error.  This was, apparently, a featured article after all, regardless of inaccuracies.
CameronB 19:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I found it hard too; but when I thought about it, the (halas too) obvious replacement was Cyberpunk itself, and you can understand why that's not really convenient (a tad too easy if I may say). Shadowrun, as you pointed, is a bit tricky too. Althought it tries hard to stick to the background, it always ends up in some prophetic Fantasy story. Other options include GURPS; Transhuman Space (a bit too far ahead IMO), Bitume MK5 and Berlin XVIII (two french games of little notoriety), and the third edition of the white wolf series. Be bold. --SidiLemine 10:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well then, consider the Edits completed.  Hmm... I must say I'm suprised that I was able to actually come up with a reason to make an edit on the sight.  User:CameronB 65.102.93.45 19:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paranoia? 

message: Via discussion on Talk:Biopunk, after further reviewing the three subgenres, the cyberpunk article and the postcyberpunk article seem to have a potential, mild disagreement. Postcyberpunk included the topic of genetic engineering, while the article on cyberpunk does not. Genetic engineering does belong to the computerized technological science-fiction genres, i.e. cyberpunk. As can be seen in the postcyberpunk movie, The Fifth Element, the character Leeloo is regenerated via a futuristic device that is explained as using genetic code to rebuild a person from even the smallest amount of genetic material. Since even modern genetics can't be employed without the use of technological advancements, this fact furthers the evidence that it is directly tied to computers and information technology. Genetic Engineering should be included in cyberpunk. Additionally, the need for biopunk as a science-fiction subgenre should be reconsidered. --Calviin 18:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Genetic Engineering in Cyberpunk, Postcyberpunk and Biopunk

message: In my opinion the section covering cyberpunk fashion doesn't match the quality of the article in general. Unfortunately I have very limited knowledge on the subject, so I can't improve it much myself. - x-Flare-x 13:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Fashion section 

message: This article is too long. The music section is much, much too long relative to its importance in the article as a whole. This needs a serious trimming. Also, the lead is much too long, and there are a lot of puffy, subjective POV adjectives scattered through the article. Have to consider nomination for featured article removal candidate. Avt tor 08:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:SIZE]]/FARC 

message: Is writing like "The rest of this entry will focus on works that define cyberpunk as its own genre, which is distinctive within the larger category of science fiction." realy a good idea? Besides, as the articel is edited, additional content may make it inaccurate. DES (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  self ref? 

message: The article now says: "But unfortunately for cyberpunk's arguable originator, the films Johnny Mnemonic (1995) and New Rose Hotel (1998) were both flops, commercially and critically. Gibson fans derided the screenplay as deviating substantially from his original work, even though Gibson wrote the final screenplay himself." Which screen play was so derided, or was it both? an should ther be a cite to someone expressign such derision? DES (talk) 20:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear reference 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Metropolis-anime-dvd.jpg

message: The article says:
:After his popular decoct novel, Count Zero (1986)
Even after a trip to the dictionary, I have no idea what is meant here by "decoct".  It is so bizarre that I suspect vandalism.  If nobody explains what it means here, I'm going to suppose that it is an error (or at best a neologism) and remove it.  If someone does explain it, perhaps we can replace it with a word that is less puzzling.  -- Dominus 20:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Decoct novel"? 

message: the line from the intro "Today cyberpunk themes are evident in almost all contemporary works of science fiction." Is IMO a large over-generalization. While much recent SF is influencd by cyberpunk to soem degree, I would have no problem at all in citing lots of recent works that are not apparently so influenced. SF is by now a wide river, with many sub-currents. No one school can be considered to have influenced all of it, or anything like all of it. Perhaps just chanign "almost all" to "many" would fix this. DES (talk) 20:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Over generalization 

message: Should we add the band arpanet to the music section?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnml (talk • contribs) 20:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arpanet 

message: In my opinion, Digital Hardcore, albeit a smaller genre, embodies much of the Cyberpunk culture. In fact, by its very definition, it is a combination of hardcore techno and punk rock, which would be etymologically suggestive of such a connection. Atari Teenage Riot, for example, made a clear, although nihilistic, reference to cyberpunk culture in the track "Cyberpunks Are Dead!". Should this be worked into the article? michaelb Talk to this user 19:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Digital Hardcore as Cyberpunk music? 

message: :Cyberpunk has influenced many anime and manga including Appleseed, where the focus is on the urban cyberpunk conflict in a post World War III environment. Akira would be an representation of Armageddon. Hayao Miyazaki’s version of Metropolis also concentrates on a “Puppet Master” for the cyborgs, just like the hunt for one in Ghost in the Shell.
1. In the sentence about Akira, does "Akira" allude to the manga/anime or the character?
2. In the last sentence; which is the version of Metropolis that's mentioned? My guess is Metropolis (2001 film), but as far as I can see on its article it has nothing to do with Hayao Miyazaki.
These things would be good to have clarified so the links can be pointed right. - x-Flare-x 15:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also of note is 2004's Steamboy directed by Katsuhiro Otomo. Here Otomo focuses on a nuclear holocaust and the arms race and how a cyborg is less human and more machine
Has the person who wrote this part even SEEN Steamboy?  And why is a reference to steampunk even included in this section?
-Xexyzl  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.31.193.20 (talk) 04:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions on the Anime and Manga section 

message: My knowledge of cyberpunk is very limited, but I do know that .hack// is a very special kind of cyberpunk. To me anyways. Just search it up on ...wikipedia. It's basicly set in the future, where the internet crashed, a new OS started, and a new MMORPG is played, which actually has something to do with creating artificial intelligence.There are also themes of Second Order Simulcras (Don't know if I used that right). Anyways, please excuse the run-on sentance, I'm not a professional writer, which is why I'm bringing it up. I'm just saying .hack// needs a mention in the Anime section. Although, it is a huge franchise. There's the 4 videogames which started it, and the anime...and everything.
Hope someone interested adds to this page...thank you in advance?
142.162.137.27 22:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I think the ".hack//" (dot hack) series franchise needs a mention. 

message: Is this supposed to mean Dozois published it, or that he popularized it? Unclear. Thmazing (talk) 22:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "although the style was popularized well before its publication by editor [[Gardner Dozois]]" 

message: This article reads...
"Protagonists in cyberpunk writing usually include computer hackers, who are often patterned on the idea of the lone hero fighting injustice: Robin Hood, Zorro, etc."
Robin Hood was not a lone hero. He had a band of merry men who are an integral part of any Robin Hood story. Not even the Lone Ranger was really alone, he had Tonto. In literature it is hard to find a truly lone hero. It seems every hero needs his interlocutor or chronicler. (This may be a matter of  necessity in plays, TV, films - the hero needs to disclose his thoughts, plans to someone for the sake of audience understanding.) 
To cut to the chase, is Cyberpunk particularly distinguished by having truly lone heroes?
Robin Hood was a fighter against injustice: does this description truly  fit the Cyberpunk hero. Is the Cyberpunk protagonist truly heroic?
TJ (talk) 15:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lone Heroes 

message: I'm surprised these movies have not been ammended to the film list, due to their mentionable albeit "B" movie popularity.
Hackers  has a very blatant cyberpunk theme that transcends the story alone. 
"I am a hacker and this is my manifesto..."
While not generally focused on sub cultures, Antitrust  does portray a viable example of a cyberpunk mentality within the software development realm.  05:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hackers/Antitrust 

message: Just for the sake of clarity, could it be stated why this article is classified as 'High-importance'
Thanks - GW  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.192.163 (talk) 20:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually i just re-rated as Top importance for the SF project. It is impossible to understand modern science fiction without knowledge of cyberpunk, and all serious discusions of SF touch on it at some point.Yobmod (talk) 13:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  High-importance 

message: I'm sorry to say but the Foundation/Dune books are not Cyberpunk. Sure they have some similaritys but I mean seriously, Starwars is more cyber punk than those two series.
p.s. I have read both of the series and I know from personal experence that they are again Not Cyberpunk.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.210.116.156 (talk) 14:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *I don't think we should based article content on "feel". Verification through  reliable sources is probably a better way. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning Issac Asimov and Frank Herbert 

message: I'm not clear what the picture at the top of the page is supposed to be doing there. Does the Sony Center have significance to cyberpunks or cyberpunk literature? The comment below the picture says, "Berlin's Sony Center reflects the global reach of a Japanese corporation." Yes, it does. But is the Sony Center itself a cyberpunk creation and/or mentioned in cyberpunk literature? Could I put a picture of a galaxy in the science fiction article and say, "Science Fiction is often set in space" beneath it? I'm just trying to figure out what its purpose is. glocks out 20:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This picture seems pretty pointless to me, unless someone can offer a clear explanation of why it is being used then it should be removed.  As far as I can see, it has a vague cyberpunk look, but no source to suggest that it was built specifically to look cyberpunk.  I'm sure that there are many other, more appropriate pictures that could be used. magnius (talk) 13:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Berlin Sony Center 

message: I have expanded and improved the Cyberdelic article in light of its exploration of Cyberpunk as a counterculture rather than a science fiction genre. --Loremaster (talk) 15:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyberdelic 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with File:Dxcover.jpg

message: Could someone clean up both the music section and the recently adjusted film section. Although they need abit of a clean up, and maybe a reference or two, could someone manage to do it without just deleting it?   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feargarden (talk • contribs) 15:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Note, most of the deleted examples were actually moved to List of cyberpunk works and cited there. Once that list is comprehensive enough, it should be easier to write a good music section for example, with all the cources used there.Yobmod (talk) 15:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up 

message: Is Cowboy Bebop actually a cyberpunk series? To me it fits in a broader Sci-Fi scope: The time is distant (colonizing of the solar system), the theme is clearly not a "man vs. tech", or any other cyberpunk usual themes, the mood is, if not cheery, light, and settings are very often in open space, rather than neon-lit back-alleys. Plus the network plays a very little role. I agree that "post-cyberpunk" is too easy a term, but there is a new trend of space-opera developping, more centered on individuals, local communities, and the difficulties of expansion in the solar system in whitch Cowboy Bebop fits more neatly. Anyone has a name for it?
82.151.86.114 16:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say that Cowboy Bebop is not a cyberpunk series. The genre doesn't really fit in any fashion beyond being science fiction. Cowboy Bebop is usually considered a space western, if anything at all, since the series was designed to break down genre barriers and focus more on characters and attitude. 'Kash 20:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there was that one episode, Brain Scratch, that was definitely cyberpunk. And Ed is a very cyberpunk character. But in general, you're right, you can't really pigeonhole it like that. —Keenan Pepper 00:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ya, I wouldn't want to define an entire series based on the vents of one episode. The majority of it doesn't really seem to fit the bill. 'Kash 21:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Planetes is hard scifi. I don't there there is anything in that series we couldn't do today with enough money. Fafnir665 (talk) 03:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cowboy Bebop

message: "The number of films in the genre or at least using a few genre elements has grown steadily since Blade Runner. Several of Philip K. Dick's works have been adapted to the silver screen. The films Johnny Mnemonic (1995) and New Rose Hotel (1998) flopped, commercially and critically."
Kind of makes it seem like Johnny Mnemonic and New Rose Hotel had something to do with Philip K. Dick.
Markku N. 130.234.178.109 (talk) 09:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, I've added a little to make it clear who wrote the original stories on which those two are based. magnius (talk) 09:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dick/Gibson on film 

message: Could someone add a good mention for the 90's game "Syndicate" and "Syndicate Wars"?  These games are a staple mark of SF cyberpunk culture, riddled with cybernetic augments, megacorporations, crime and corruption, tech violence, and near-future low-life cities.  It's the epitome of this SF genre for a computer game and I'm astonished that it hasn't been mentioned.  Someone should definitely add this!  More info here: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicate_(video_game)" 71.226.61.138 (talk) 09:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: These games are already listed in List of cyberpunk works, so there is no need to clog up this article with any mention. magnius (talk) 10:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syndicate Game