Talk:Sudoku/Archive 3

message: Wow, this article is very popular all of a sudden, and I'm glad to have had the opportunity to research why, examining others' edits.
Here's what Nikoli has to say about Sudoku's "British Invasion", cut and pasted verbatim from their Puzzle Japan website.  It doesn't seem to fit in the article, but I thought it would be interesting to share nonetheless:
Nikoli Puzzles are now Landing in UK!
The United Kingdom has become obsessed with SUDOKU. Many newspapers and magazines feature this puzzle every day. In trains, offices and kitchens, the British are absorbed in solving SUDOKU. They don't call it "Number Place". They call it SUDOKU. This Japanese word will soon be as familiar as Judo.
They seem tickled pink.  They've even recently teamed with Puzzler Media to publish a book of their hand-made puzzles in the UK.
It now seems I was just scratching the surface when I first started adding cultural information to this article.  I was really just planning on covering all of Nikoli's popular puzzles and figured it'd be easiest to start with the one whose article was already present; I was wrong, and I'm glad for it.  This is fascinating.  - ZM
Zotmeister 17:45, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article popularity 

message: If an efficient solver is available, there is a very simple method of automatic construction: randomly add a digit to the grid, and then look for a solution
The inverse process is also possible. Start with a completely solved board, shuffle rows, columns and symbols (respecting the sudoku restrictions, of course), make a random walk through the board, visiting every cell trying to remove its given (if the resulting board can't be solved, this given can't be removed, otherwise, remove it before going to the next cell).
Precooked solved boards can be used. This would save time. I still have to measure it, though.
By the way (here comes my little commercial ;-), I use a GPL sudoku "explainer" engine that I wrote in August:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sudoku-sensei 
This is no Sudoku solver, but "explainer". It can list the logical steps taken. It can generate new Sudokus and rank their difficulty. Not only 9x9 grids: MxN, samurai or any layout you can describe! The core is a C/C++ library. Includes sample programs --Como 18:54, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inverse automatic construction 

message: For what it's worth, I wish you'd consider adding one or two more diagrams.  Some people learn better by text, others learn better visually, so it shouldn't be considered a problem if there's overlap between the two.  If there's disagreement over what diagrams are good, then maybe some discussion should take place about which are needed, before diagrams are created. --Interiot 02:58, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Diagrams

message: The "Links for inclusion" section has become totally unmanageable and all recent links proposed seem to be of very average quality. The obvious links for inclusion have already been added to the main Sudoko article so I'd like to archive this whole section now, but thought it appropriate to solicit opinion before doing so. I also intend to archive the "Subpages Removed". --angusj 23:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just realised that "Links for inclusion" is a subsection of "External link explosion (discussion/vote)", so what I'm proposing is the archiving of "External link explosion". --angusj 23:31, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, this whole Talk page is a mess and I think it could use a re-factor. At the very least, a consolidation of the links being considered/voted on and the discussion around that. Al 12:25, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time to archive "Links for inclusion" and "Subpages Removed"? 

message: Please include more information and pictures to accompany techniques on solving Sudoku. Without pictures, the text described seems obscure. It would be very useful. Thanks!
:See previous discussion under Strategies & Methods. Wikipedia is by design not a how-to-cookbook, which is more appropriately addressed by WikiBooks, but there is some latitude in describing algorthyms, and documenting the state of exisiting strategies.  Somebody, will eventually create a Sudoku related page with this focus.  The article contains links to other sites that do a very good job of explaining how-to. e.g. Keys to Solution. - LarryLACa 22:44, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solving Sudoku 

message: Under the heading "Difficulty Ratings" in the article, it says, "Perhaps surprisingly, the number of givens has little or no bearing on a puzzle's difficulty." If this is true, then why is "Number of filled squares" listed as one of the four major factors influencing difficulty?
: I agree. I've now edited that section and removed the "four factors" which I disagreed with anyhow. --angusj 12:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't completely disagree, but the number of givens must be a bit of a factor. I mean, in general 40 givens will be a lot easier than 20 givens. 128.231.88.4 You can call me Al 14:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, 40 givens puzzles are easier than 20 givens puzzle if they only require very basic solving strategies. In that case they are only easier because there are fewer steps. However, for puzzles requiring more challenging solving strategies, there's generally a point midway through solving (usually when a little more than half the cells have been completed) where these more complex solving strategies are required. For these puzzles, whether they start with 20 or 30 givens has no bearing on the real challenges that lie ahead. --angusj 22:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Level of Difficulty and Givens 

message: I've created a template for displaying Sudoku grids/puzzles Template:Sudoku 9x9 grid.  This is an example usage based on the puzzle shown on the Sudoku main page with some arbitrary colors added.  
To see the example's parameter list, edit this topic.  The diagram can float left or right, cellsize is variable, background colors can be set for the diagram, boxes or individual cells.  For usage details  see Template_talk:Sudoku 9x9 grid. -- LarryLACa 08:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Template:Sudoku 9x9 grid]] available

message: I've created a template for displaying a Sudoku band Template:Sudoku 3x9 band.  This example shows one of the 2 pure cases for the top band used in enumerating all possible solutions, as explained in Mathematics of Sudoku.
Case 0:  No Overlap. The choices for the triplets can be determined by elimination.
;  r21 can't be r11 or r12 so it must be = r13; r31 must be = r12 etc.
-- LarryLACa 19:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Template [[Sudoku 3x9 band]] available

message: I developed the templates under Internet Explorer V6 SP1, but haven't had any feedback yet about how they appear in other browswers.  I know older versions of Netscape don't display the major/minor grids at all (Should be thick black/thinner grey respectively).  Comments appreciated at User_talk:LarryLACa.
-- LarryLACa 19:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Template Browser Compatability?

message: I discovered http://www.angusj.com/sudoku/hints.php the other day, which I think is one of the clearest descriptions of "how to solve" Sudoku I've ever seen. Of course it is actually a site that is selling promoting a free Sudoku solving program. So maybe some would not deem the link appropriate for the article. Jooler 07:57, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, I'm delighted with your praise of my site. However, considering the angst we've been through over the last few months trying to agree on which sites to link to, I'd rather leave the External Links section just as it is :). --angusj 08:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Simple Sudoku

message: I have created List of Sudoku terms and jargon in anticipation o f needing this for work on the Mathematics of Sudoku article.
Is this a useful endeavor?  If so, we can ref. it from the Sudoku.
See also Talk:List of Sudoku terms and jargon for my suggestion on how to organize a talk page to provide clarity about consensus.
Link quibbling on the list page will probably be worse than here, since I found it necessary to give a minimal link example for most terms, to document accept usage. -- LarryLACa 04:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Sudoku terms and jargon 

message: I propose the following external link:
*SuDoku Java Applet - Create, solve or save your SuDoku game with this java applet. Highly maintained by SourceForge.net. This page is completely advertisement-free and the applet is so comprehensive.
This is an interactive flash Sudoku where you don't even need the keyboard. Every new game is of varying difficulty and number placement. And at any given stage, the user can ask for a hint (which will descrease his score).
Also, it's possible to find a blank printable Sudoku.
And yes, the site name uses the Sudoku spelling (Soduku) that many of us use.
*OnlineSoduku.com
This daily puzzle maybe of interest to you.  Every day the puzzle is updated with varying difficulties.
*Daily Sudoku
YAELP (Yet Another External Link Proposal)
*http://ironsudoku.com
One of the few Sudoku sites that lets you mark subscripts. It's also slickly done with AJAX. And there's always a bunch of players on the site chatting in the chat log.
Several sudoku sites are available to play sudoku online.  One that has the best game play in my opinion is Count to Nine Sudoku (http://www.counttonine.com), where you can play and print free sudoku puzzle online.
I'd like to propose the following link for the Sudoku page:
http://sudoku.bookthoughts.co.nz
Its a subdomain offering a free service where sudoku fans can sign up to recieve daily sudoku puzzles sent to their inbox.
Invers_Cheif
Seeing the note at the bottome of the article I decided to propose this here rather than simply add it. It is an open source Sudoku solver which runs in the user's browser.
*http://sudoku.sourceforge.net/
:-=# Amos E Wolfe talk #=- 03:30, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Any additions to "External Links" will need enthusiastic endorsement from the 'regulars' here. So far, in my opinion, none of the proposed links here (including this one) demonstrate 'exceptional' qualities that would warrant inclusion in External Links. --angusj 10:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think the fact they're commercial is the problem (at least that's what I was told) --KSnortum 03:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed External Link 

message: On :fr:Sodoku and :sv:Sodoku, Sudoku is a game and Sodoku (with an « o ») is a disease... Isn't it one problem? --David 21:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Soduku. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sodoku and Sudoku 

message: Surely someone should create :Category:Sudoku?  violet/riga (t) 12:23, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. violet/riga (t) 21:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category 

message: Am I the only person here who has been getting private emails about the content of this public article?  I am not the only person in charge of this thing.  If someone has something to say about the article, post it here to this discussion page - do NOT email it to me directly.  I don't care who you think you are or who you think I am: knock it off.
My apologies to all the other sane and courteous editors here; multiple irritants prompted this.  - ZM
Zotmeister 20:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal communication 

message: Hello fellow sudoku addicts. I have just updated my Website to promote my new product Sudoku-Help-Plus. This of course is irrelevant from an encyclopaedic perspective. However I have introduced some new terminology (see SHP Solving Rules) some of which may be of general and/or encyclopaedic interest. I have also introduced what I believe to be a new puzzle variant which I have christened  Cluedoku.
But likely to be of most interest is my new system of rating the difficulty of puzzles, the SHD Rating (Sudoku-Help Difficulty Rating). If it was adopted widely it would enable the Sudoku community to campare the relative difficulty of puzzles to each other with a standard and much more meaningful metric, than the somewhat arbitrary generic terms currently in use.
I will leave it to the main contributors to this excellent article to determine if any of the above is worthy of a mention anywhere in the primary article. Sudoku-help-greg 03:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I would prefer someone to tell me that my new terminology and rating system is uninformed garbage than to elicit no comment whatsoever. Sudoku-help-greg 01:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. For a start I don't see any benefit in introducing new terminology since it only confuses people more than they already are with the existing terms. Also, I think your proposal (like many others here) borders on link-spam (ie just a thinly veiled attempt to generate interest in your site). --angusj 13:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Unless and until your new system is adopted by the Sudoku community at large it can't be included here. Wikipedia is not the place to promote new things. —Wrathchild (talk) 13:18, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, I'm happy to accept that your primary intention was to contribute to Sudoku discussion (which is focused at improving the Sudoku article here in Wikipedia). However, when you state in your very first sentence that you're website is to 'promote my new product', hopefully you can understand why I think you're treading a fine line. The problem is that many/most of us who have Sudoku webpages think that our own webpages are special and worthy of attention. Unfortunately, none of us can be objective about our own sites. --angusj 12:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that I appreciate you taking me at my word. Note that I said I had "updated it to promote" not that that was the site's whole purpose. FYI - I removed my entry as agreed, but Wrathchild restored it, so I guess it stays. Sudoku-help-greg 23:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New terminology & rating system 

message: It seems to be that, using the typical rules of sudoku, there can only be so many possible final solutions.  If 9 is the number in the uppermost, rightmost square, than there can be only so many filled puzzles with 9 there.  Anyone know the grand total of possible grids?
:Read the main article under "Mathematics of" for one answer, but to my way of thinking you will find a better answer in an article I stumbled across the other day by an American science writer, Brian Hayes. You'll find it in American Scientist Online. I think it takes better account of the symmetries of the puzzle than other discussions on the subject that I have read. Zotmeister might even want to add a link to it in the main page. Sudoku-help-greg 23:01, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of solutions 

message: I created an excel template on commons.wikimedia.com.  I also noticed there is also an excel Sudoku program there too.  The program creates puzzles and the solutions.
The template can be useful for helping you solve sudoku's.  It has border area where you can write in numbers.  I'm thinking it should be linked in the see also section.  What do you think? 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sudoku
The spreadsheets can be improved.  I was also thinking of creating spreadsheet template that is more compatible with open office.
Daniel.Cardenas 00:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Daniel. Thanks for eliciting feedback about your excel template. I was the person who removed your link from the main Sudoku article earlier today so perhaps I should explain why I did so. Firstly, I have a significant concern with linking to any files which can contain viruses (even though Wikipedia warns about the dangers of downloading such files). Anyhow, since I have a fairly robust antivirus setup I took the smallish risk and downloaded and opened your file. To be frank, it seemed very primitive - a few bolded borders making an empty grid. There was no documentation, no solving tips and no macros to assist the solver. (Fortunately there were no macros viruses either.) Anyhow, I feel strongly that Wikipedia is not the place for this sort of file (but that's just my opinion). --angusj 02:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excel Templates 

message: This is the caption to the image at top of article. The image is not linked. I changed the description but someone reverted.. Please fix..
Gregorydavid 09:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Every image displayed in a Wikipedia article is linked to a page that displays the image along with a description of the image.  And in this instance, the description contains the solution to the puzzle.  So what do you mean that it isn't linked to the solution? -- Smjg 11:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image hyperlinked to solution

message: Please do not create new sections to propose another "External Link". There is already a section for that above. At least that way they'll all be in one place. Also, please do not propose a site unless you genuinely feel it is truely exceptional. My impression of the current list is that none of them are exceptional. 
Also, due to the ongoing abuse of the "External Link" section in the main article I propose that no new external links be considered and we simply have one link to the Sudoku entry in the "Open Directory Project".  --angusj 21:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposing External Links 

message: Hi, Editor Angusj has incorrectly titled my contribution on 22:49, 4 April 2006 as link spam. My contributed link pointed to http://www.chessandpoker.com/sudoku-strategy-guide.html which when visited displays a pertinent Sudoku strategy guide. Referrences of relevency can be noted by searching 'sudoku strategy' or 'sudoku strategy guide' via Google.com or by visiting the page. Editor Angusj may be displaying bias as the site http://angusj.com/sudoku/hints.php is in direct competition for similiar keywords. I request an unbiased pageview from Editor Zotmeister and if applicable revert.Amazing Backslash 23:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, I'm not an editor any more than anyone else is in Wikipedia. As to why I removed your link - there is an edit comment at the top of the External Links section that you should have seen before you inserted your link. Anyhow it says: "NB: External links are being reviewed on the Discussion page ("Talk:Sudoku") at present. Please join in that discussion before adding new links here, particularly if you are promoting your own site." Consequently, links which have not gained overwhelming approval by regulars (as opposed to a rent-a-crowd which one person tried) will be removed immediately. It's not a question of relevancy. (The External Links section has been abused beyond reason and my preference is to remove it entirely.) Finally, I can't understand why you think I'm trying to protect my own site from competition, it's not even listed in the Wikipedia article. --angusj 10:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: If you'd witnessed the total free-for-all that happened about 6-9 months ago when there was no editing of the external links section, you'd understand the current arrangement that's been agreed upon by consensus here. (Have a look at the archived discussion and you should get some idea of what happened - though I'm not sure if all the proposed links were archived too.) Anyhow, I now consider anyone who chooses to ignore the request at the top of the Links Section (asking contributors to refrain from adding links directly to the main article) as spamming. Incidently, in case you're wondering, I wasn't the person who added that request. If you have a better idea on how to manage the literally hundreds of proposed links and how to fairly arbitrate which few links might be worthy of inclusion in the Links Section, I'm all ears. --angusj 04:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccurate Removal and Labeling as Link Spam 

message: This article was briefly mentioned in the Arts section of the New York Times today, everybody. If you have access to the newspaper, I suggest you go check it out! I wouldn't be surprised if the history of sudoku part of the article was researched here -- the Wikipedia article is just said to have more info. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 12:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New York Times 

message: I made a minor change (adding full and complete name of the US magazine which first published sudoku, and a citing weblink.  Lost my nerve and tried to reverse my change but can't see how.  Sorry. Tychocat 03:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did it for you :). --angusj 06:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: modified opening paragraph

message: I'm trying to figure out what exactly the symmetry constraint is . It's referenced but undefined in many of the articles as far as I can tell. Image would be ideal.Thadk 06:08, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Symmetry constraint undefined. 

message: Scientific American ran an article on Sudoku in their latest release (which had a lot of the same info you can find here in it...) and put this page under the "More to Explore" section at the end of the article.  Just a heads up --Tossrock 08:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cited in June 2006 Scientific American