Talk:Ewelina Hańska

message: Most biographies of Balzac (including — in order of publication date — Floyd, Maurois, Gerson, and Robb) spell her name "Eveline" (sometimes with an É, other times without an accent), as does the first footnote in the original Lettres à L'Étrangère. Lawton (1910) uses "Evelina", but it's clearly in the minority (and that text is far from scholarly). 
Can anyone explain why it's "Ewelina" here? Would anyone object to moving it to "Éveline"? Scartol • Tok 17:55, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Pursuant to this discussion at WikiProject Poland, I moved it to "Eveline", but then an anonymous IP moved it back. I will move it again, but I'm worried about other moves. As the sources I will soon add demonstrate, "Eveline" is by far the most common spelling in English-language sources. Scartol • Tok 12:59, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: Polish Biographical Dictionary (PSB), however, gives her date of birth as 24 December 1800, old style. I have to go the Wiknic now, so I'll see if I can find a working converter later (but please do so before if you can). Also, we need to deal with "Pierrot, p. 14. His certainty is cited to an entry for Adam Rzewuski in the Dictionary of Polish Biography which gives his birth date as 24 December 1804. Eveline was born roughly one year earlier." First, is Dictionary of Polish Biography PSB? This needs to be clarified. Second, Who says that "Eveline was born roughly one year earlier"? Pierrot? PSB? Clarification needed. (Also, note the interesting date convergence - both would be 24 December? Is Pierrot date Old Style?) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  15:48, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately I do not own the Pierrot book. So I'll go to the university library and check it out for a third time when I am able to do so. Scartol • Tok 17:49, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: All right. In the meantime, using this converter, suggests that 24 December 1804 (Old Style ) is 5 January 1805 (New Style). So PSB agrees that she was born in the 1801-1804 range, too, but adding a note about Old Style date being 1800 would be useful (since old Polish/Russian sources may use Old Style Dates). I do note that 5 January is one day earlier than our 6 January estimate, though. Perhaps a note could be added about conversion, or something... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:22, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of birth 

message: Cleaning family's mess: not all the names have been stanardized to Polish variant, so I've done it myself, I also "detranslated" two names of relatives (husband) from French into their proper Polish names, per PSB and . I gather that the French authors have the traditional and international preference (found in older sources) to translate the names into their own (French) languages, sigh.
I added a sentence that clearly lists her brothers and sisters. The three that have articles on pl wiki are linked (Adam, Henryk, Karolina), with no prejudice to others being linked. 
I removed "Her sister Catherine married Prince Wilhelm Radziwiłł at the age of 15 and later became known as an author.Cronin, pp. 154–155; Pierrot pp. 23–27 and 49–55. Princess Radziwiłł said – in a letter reproduced in Floyd, pp. 203–204 – that she was "quite sure" Eveline was born in 1801 of the Julian calendar." As far as I can tell, Catherine Radziwill, nee Katarzyna Rzewuska, was not her sister, but her niece (daughter of her brother Adam). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:48, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up family's references 

message: The article claims that Ewelina "born to Count Adam Wawrzyniec Rzewuski and his wife, Countess Justyna Rzewuska". I think that the term  (pl:hrabia) an error. Let's see: it is not mention in his article on pl Wikipedia, not in the genealology page (), nor, finally, in PSB. Now, Polish-Lithuanian Commowealth, even under the partitions, had a plethora of unique titles (see Officials in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth), which are hard to translate (which is why most of them have articles like starosta or cześnik, rather then translations). Add to it the fact that Polish nobility often refused to recognize foreign titles, which made some more elitist, but then some were given (particularly in the 18th and 19th centuries, creating real Polish counts and such) - long story short, Polish nobility title are a mess, and some Western authors who don't realize this often will abuse terms like Count or Prince. I think this is the case here. PSB gives her parents the following titles: Adam Wawrzyniec, "kasztelan witebski" (castellan of Vitebsk) and Justyna Rdułtowska, "chorążanka nowogrodzka" (daughter of chorąży of Novograd). Sejm website notes that her father was "marszałek szlachty gubernii mohilewskiej" (marszałek of the Mogilev Governorate szlachta). Pl wikipedia confirms that, gives the exact dates for his castellancy (1790-1793, likely ended with the Second Partition of Poland). It also notes he was a "Russian senator", a bit imprecise title here. I suggest that for now we remove the Count/Countess titles from the article, and replace it with the PSB sourced castellan of Vitebsk for the father; and the marshal if you feel like sourcing to the website (seems reliable). I'd have to look at a more reliable bio for more titles (Polski Słownik Biograficzny 27699: t. 34 s. 94 RZEWUSKI Adam Wawrzyniec (1760-1825) poseł, pisarz polityczny), but I think for the daughter article this should be good enough. PS. PSB does give her first husband (missing an article on pl wiki, Polski Słownik Biograficzny 8212: t. 9 s. 287 HAŃSKI Wacław (1782-1841) marszałek szlachty wołyńskiej () as "hr.", the abbreviations for the hrabia (count), so at this point I am was open to concluding that she became a countess by marrying a count - but certainly she was not born a countess. PS. Jerzy Mniszech, her daughter's Anna's husband, was a count. Jerzy, of course, not anglicized George... PPS. PSB entry on Wacław Hański has no mention on him being count, sigh. I am having hard time finding whether he had the title. Btw, her brother Adam received the title of Count in 1856, which does confirm further her family didn't have it originally. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: So, to sum it up, I am not sure if we can even call her Countess. I cannot find any reliable sources calling her or her husband hrabia consistently. Actually, I am getting only one hit for Google Books on "Eveline Hańska" countess" and no for "Ewelina Hańska" countess, so I am now strongly in favor of removing all references to counts from this article, with the exception to that of Jerzy Mniszech, who I am seeing mentioned with the title relatively consistently. PS. I get few hits for "Ewelina Hanska" hrabina, but just a few, that I am attributing it to a rare error. Anyway, it doesn't even seem that the sources refer to her with that title often enough for us to discuss this in some "common error" footnote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  21:44, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Count and Countess