Talk:Toby Meltzer

message: I have done some clean up and wiki-fying of the article. I have also added sources for comments where I could find reliable ones. The one area where I hit a major roadblock is the references to the techniques that he's pioneered. All the sources that I could find (at least on-line) are either blogs, self-published, or second/third hand sources which wouldn't be appropriate to put in the articles. I suspect what I need to find is located in some of the ASPS medical journals but unfortunately you have to pay for access to them. In regards to the AfD, if someone can fill in the gaps with sources in those key areas it will go a long way to saving this article. Agne 15:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the article needs 

message: I can't believe this article has been 'd again! It's been through two AfDs already. I think that establishes the guy's notability at this stage, somehow - Alison ☺ 15:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Speedy Delete .. again! 

message: For the lay reader, the description of the procedure is highly technical.  It makes various assertions as to the superiority or innovation of the procedure.  The description was written by Anne Lawrence, a person who had a vaginoplasty performed by Meltzer.  The conflict of interest is clear.  Joie de Vivre 15:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The conflict of interest is the reason for removing the long, adulatory description of the technique.  If he is indeed "one of the best known in his field" then we need independent sources for that statement.  Meltzer saying it himself is no good, and not much better is the congratulation of one of his patients.   Joie de Vivre 15:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vaginoplasty description

message: A claim like this requires more than one offhand comment attributed to a lay person in an article written on an unrelated issue.  If it's true, it ought to be independently verifiable.  A medical journal might have something. Joie de Vivre 19:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, do you not think that the Chicago Sun Times have a fact checking department? I think they are a pretty gosh darn Reliable source. The onus is on you to discredit this as a reliable sourceAgneCheese/Wine 20:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Let's look at the quote: "The operation was performed March 21 in Scottsdale, Ariz., by Dr. Toby Meltzer, who Diane regards as the nation's foremost practitioner of sexual reassignment surgery, having performed about 3,000 procedures." Does this mean that Diane regarded him as having performed this many procedures?  Again, there ought to be some documentation in the medical literature of his prolific career.  That is what should be used, not some dubious offhand comment whose attribution is not even clear.  Joie de Vivre 20:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, the Chicago Sun Times has a fact checking department for facts and figures like this-most reputable newspapers do. AgneCheese/Wine 20:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that you are not hearing what I am saying.  This is a claim about his medical career.  Medical journals are the appropriate place to follow doctors' medical careers.  If the claim is so weak that it is only mentioned by some random person, it's not strong enough to include here.  Hiding behind the Times doesn't change the fact that there ought to be more documentation readily available.  Joie de Vivre 20:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm hearing you quite clearly. You are disputing the claim that is cited by a reliable source. To discredit the claim, you have the simple task of discrediting the reliableness of the source. You need to demonstrate and give a compelling reason why we should believe that the author and the fact checking department of the Chicago Sun Times wouldn't verify the figure for accuracy in the article they are publishing. That is the simple task of the matter.AgneCheese/Wine 20:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Meltzer has performed over 3000 sexual reassignment surgeries during his practice.  M. Brown Legislation is no laughing matter; House leaders yuk it up over bill Chicago Sun Times April 25, 2007 
===Reverts===
Agne, I find the inclusion of the claims of Meltzer's career to be unfounded.  I explained why in my edit summaries: according to WP:RS:
"Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple reliable sources, especially regarding scientific or medical topics, historical events, politically charged issues, and biographies of living people."
The claim that he has performed over 3000 surgeries is certainly exceptional, and it is about a medical topic and in the biography of a living person.  Also exceptional is the claim of 2-4 surgeries per week, a claim which is self-published by Meltzer.  I don't want to hear about the fact-checking department again.  The fact is that this is an exceptional claim in a biography about a living person and the sources aren't strong for either claim.  Joie de Vivre 19:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The fact still remains that you have yet to discredit the reliableness of the source. Secondly, WP:V makes clear that Meltzer's office figure is acceptable in an article about itself provided you make it clear where the information is coming from.AgneCheese/Wine 19:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Honestly, Agne, the cite you're quoting is little more than a blog; an editorial in an edu magazine. It's not a reliable source, esp. not for something as exceptional as the claim you're trying to make. I have to concur with what JdV is saying here - Alison ☺ 19:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with a compromise on the College newspaper interview and leave it in the external links section rather then a source (As yet, I don't think Joie has objected to that). However, I do think it's silly to discredit the reliableness of the Chicago Sun Times for a claim that is hardly exceptional as RKLawton notes below.AgneCheese/Wine 06:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The Vassar student newspaper claim was for having the "largest practice", the Chicago Times claim (attributed to an offhand comment by an interviewee in an article about an unrelated topic) was the "3000 surgeries" figure, and the self-published claim on Meltzer's website is the "2-4 surgeries per week" claim.  Have you any opinions on the latter two?  Joie de Vivre 19:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Over 3000 surgeries"

message: Agne, I find the inclusion of the claims of Meltzer's career to be unfounded.  I explained why in my edit summaries: according to WP:RS:
"Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple reliable sources, especially regarding scientific or medical topics, historical events, politically charged issues, and biographies of living people."
The claim that he has performed over 3000 surgeries is certainly exceptional, and it is about a medical topic and in the biography of a living person.  Also exceptional is the claim of 2-4 surgeries per week, a claim which is self-published by Meltzer.  I don't want to hear about the fact-checking department again.  The fact is that this is an exceptional claim in a biography about a living person and the sources aren't strong for either claim.  Joie de Vivre 19:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact still remains that you have yet to discredit the reliableness of the source. Secondly, WP:V makes clear that Meltzer's office figure is acceptable in an article about itself provided you make it clear where the information is coming from.AgneCheese/Wine 19:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Honestly, Agne, the cite you're quoting is little more than a blog; an editorial in an edu magazine. It's not a reliable source, esp. not for something as exceptional as the claim you're trying to make. I have to concur with what JdV is saying here - Alison ☺ 19:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with a compromise on the College newspaper interview and leave it in the external links section rather then a source (As yet, I don't think Joie has objected to that). However, I do think it's silly to discredit the reliableness of the Chicago Sun Times for a claim that is hardly exceptional as RKLawton notes below.AgneCheese/Wine 06:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The Vassar student newspaper claim was for having the "largest practice", the Chicago Times claim (attributed to an offhand comment by an interviewee in an article about an unrelated topic) was the "3000 surgeries" figure, and the self-published claim on Meltzer's website is the "2-4 surgeries per week" claim.  Have you any opinions on the latter two?  Joie de Vivre 19:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverts

message: All sources indicate this is a noted specialist in practice for around twenty years.  Twenty years * 50 working weeks per year * 3 surgeries (average) per week yield around 3,000 surgeries performed.  No sources have been produced to indicate his self-published figures are exaggerated.  Reliable sources have repeated these figures.  Surgeons perform surgeries, there's no reason to believe a long-established surgeon wouldn't have racked up a considerable tally.  As a result, this fact doesn't fall under the "extraordinary" claims category, and the sources cited are sufficient.  Rklawton 20:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Analysis

message: Joie, we both obviously have strong opinions here. I placed a neutral request on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies page for some third party views. We are both members of that project and this article squarely falls under the LGBT studies realm. It's how I got involved in the article even though I'm not trans myself and I assume in good faith that the same desire to improve LGBT articles is what lead you here as well. Let's get some outside view from project members before either or us edit further. Sound like a plan? AgneCheese/Wine 19:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What, now that you're done reverting to the version you like?  Joie de Vivre 19:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So what's under dispute?  The 3,000 claim and its' reliability?  Surely, if he has the "largest practice" we can find another source to back it up?  While I don't dispute the accuracy of the claim (Chicago Sun Times is pretty reliable), it is a side note in their article, so shouldn't be given too much weight.  Even if we find something from Meltzer himself, we can say "Meltzer claims to have performed over 3,000 ..." and ref both sources. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur with SatyrTN - this claim appears to need another or much better reference.  --ElKevbo 21:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with this and it quite reasonable. Meltzer's website does note that he has done has 2400 vaginoplasties (MtF GRS) and 800 FTM GRS which backs up the Chicago Sun Times 3000 GRS. Both items are cited in the lead to where we have one independent, reliable third party source being collaborated with the self published source (which WP:V allows in articles about this themselves). AgneCheese/Wine 06:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: "In 2007, Meltzer reported that he performs 2-4 vaginoplasties a week, and that he has performed over 3000 male and female sexual reassignment (GRS) surgeries during his practice."Questions How many vaginoplasties/GRS procedures has Dr. Meltzer performed and how often does he do them? Official Site
I feel that this is a fair, factual compromise that attributes claims appropriately.  Joie de Vivre 19:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's both step back

message: I removed the link to Dr. Meltzer's practice homepage. Commercial advertising links (which is what our practice pages in fact are) like this are discouraged on wikipedia, particularly among physicians. Droliver 01:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether or not he is a physician is irrelevant. The Official site of a subject is clearly an acceptable external link per WP:EL. AgneCheese/Wine 12:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  A subject's official website is almost certainly an acceptable external link.  --ElKevbo 13:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: links

message: Added a link to a non-commercial, patient support group by and for Dr. Meltzer's patients
75.172.75.141 (talk) 02:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Links to support groups do not comply with our external links guideline, or with the policy 'What wikipedia is not' (not a repository of links section).
Updated links for currency. They now include: the subject's official site, information about him from tsroadmap - the major ts site on the internet, pictorial's of the subject's surgery, and a site with photo's of the subject and additional information not included in the article.
Ihollie (talk) 02:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Removed the links per WP:EL and WP:NOT#REPOSITORY.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Some external links are welcome (see "What should be linked", below), "
Pursuant to the appropriateness, I have fixed the links to the pictorials on the Anne Lawrence TWR site, and restored the other links that include valuable information about Dr. Meltzer and his practice, as provided for inclusion in accordance with WP:EL.
Ihollie (talk) 05:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: support group link

message: Isn’t it worth mentioning the controversy surrounding this guy? Tobymeltzer.com describes some harrowing stuff. I’m confused as to how mention of this type of thing can’t be a part of his wiki. To be clear, I added a mention of this yesterday which was swiftly deleted. I am now wondering why. The website in question shows photographic evidence of their claims, so it does seem that there is a good case for this website to be legit. Can’t we at least make that a part of his story? Don’t potential patients of his deserve to know? Zk0000 (talk) 11:16, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy