Talk:Harry Dexter White

message: The claim that Harry Dexter White was "an active agent of Soviet espionage.[1]" is illustrated with a link to "The Morgenthau Plan for Policy Perversion", by Anthony Kubek, published by the Institute for Historical Review. A closer read of the link shows that it was attributed to J. Edgar Hoover, during the notorious House Unamerican Activities Committee. "Also, J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI charged that White was an active agent of Soviet espionage, and despite the fact he had sent five reports to the White House warning the President of White's activities, Truman promoted him to a position at the United Nations. When the shocking story of White's service as a Soviet agent was first revealed by Attorney General Herbert Brownell in a Chicago speech, it created quite a stir of public charges and counter-charges by then retired Harry Truman." This is what the Southern Poverty Law Center has to say about Mark Weber and his Institute for Historical Review:
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/mark-weber
MrSativa (talk) 02:22, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Obscure Sources

message: He did not confess nor was he convicted so :Category:American spies for the Soviet Union is not appropriate. To leave him out of any spy category would be egregious, he belongs in :Category:Accused American spies for the Soviet Union. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: what's disgusting was White's espionage activities on behalf of the Soviet Union... Category re-added to article based on exhaustive and convincing evidence of White's spying. Azx2 06:29, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: careful here. "disgusting" is a personal POV.  In fact every nation hires spies, and they play an important role in world affairs.  Our job is to report what the RS say about spying, not to announce our displeasure with the practice. Rjensen (talk) 12:18, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Spy category

message: There's a large section added in the 03:56, 17 December 2009 edit by 70.129.141.180 relying on a book by Emanuel Josephson, whose credibility is questionable at best.  The Rockefeller-Soviet conspiracy which Josephson alleges is presented in these passages as fact.  Josephson's opinions may be worth noting, but a fringe historian/conspiracy theorist's analysis ought not be given an unqualified 5 paragraphs of material.76.27.140.208 (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Josephson?

message: Those introductory 3 lines are going to have to be modified.  
At best White is an accused spy, and to the best of my knowledge the VENONA cables prove nothing other than White was talking to the Soviets which was, after all, part of his job.  The most seemingly incriminating cable (1119-1122) of 4 August 1944, was with a Russian banker (a fact that didn't surface until maybe 2000).  That meeting was shortly after the Bretton Woods conference where the Russian (Kolt'sov in the cable) was an accredited attendee.  Rather than a clandestine meeting, a far more realistic interpretation would be that White was continuing to sell the Soviets on the wisdom of joining the IMF.  DEddy (talk) 03:23, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Accused is not proved

message: "A number of sources from the FBI and Soviet archives, and messages decoded by the Venona project, implicated him in the passing of government documents to the Soviet Union prior to World War II."
You're going to have to get a firmer grip on your timeframes here.  What precise documents "prior to WWII" do you mean?  There is the single offering of the "Baltimore papers" from Whittaker Chambers, who described White as his "least productive asset."  For this document (a collection of 3 documents?) to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence White gave it to Chambers.  Certainly it cannot be VENONA since those were only cables beginning in 1943.  My knowledge of Soviet archives is less solid... references please.  Please do not include "Sacred Secrets" as a source.  The chapter on White lists 20% of the footnotes as "Soviet Intelligence Archives".  This is classic TIME/LIFE making up facts to fit the story.  "Sacred Secrets" is NOT a credible reference.  
Are you aware of White's official interest in Russian gold production?
I duly notice you say "government documents" rather than "secret government documents."  Is there a difference, or is it assumed a government document is by definition, secret ?  DEddy (talk) 19:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Passing documents

message: The sequence of events in the last sentence in the opening paragraph is totally jumbled.  Please do some homework & correct.
: HDW testifies to HUAC ~August 1948
: HDW dies 3 or 4 days after HUAC testimony
: several YEARS later the FBI, using VENONA materials accuses HDW of being a Soviet source  DEddy (talk) 03:42, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  HUAC testimony sentence 

message: The testimony of Elizabeth Bentley, the VENONA intercepts, and the Mitrokhin archives show that Harry Dexter White was very likely a soviet agent, acting under the code name "Jurist".
Clearly this is a highly controversial, loaded sentence.
: Bentley herself admitted that the stories in her "Out of Bondage" were "fiction."  One major story is her varied accusations that under influence White turned over the Occupation Currency plates to the Soviets.  Her story was that currency samples were obtained from White, sent to Moscow, deemed impossible to counterfeit & returned to White.  Such a trip from Washington to Moscow and return would have taken several weeks.  In addition, the Bureau of Printing and Engraving only release currency samples to Treasury on March 27, 1944... slightly more than two weeks before the plates, inks, papers & supplies were officially released to the Soviets on April 14.  The plate issue was thoroughly discussed amongst Treasury, State & War Department committees.
: VENONA cables are ambiguous.  The most direct cables (1119-1122) describe White meeting with a Soviet banker who'd been a formal delegate at Bretton Woods.  White was selling the Russian on the wisdom of joining the IMF.  DEddy (talk) 02:12, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it is only controversial according to your original research.--Brian Dell (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely you're not going to propose the FBI as a reliable source in this domain? DEddy (talk) 18:22, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You're clearly a White-apologist. Azx2 06:34, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too Controversial 

message: Here is a clip from the Haynes/Klehr/Vassiliev "Spies"
[my emphasis added to new course]
pg 259
:Moscow Center assigned a high priority to establishing direct access to White and wanted to remove Silvermaster as an intermediary, but this goal was difficult.  First, as Elizabeth Bentley told the FBI in 1945 and as Venona decryptions confirmed, Silvermaster fiercely resisted being re-moved from the loop; jealous that it diminished his importance.  Second, given White's high standing in Washington, direct meetings with a Soviet contact required great care.  The KGB was not, however, concerned that 
pg 260
	
:White himself was under an illusion that his information only went to the Communist Party.  Akhmerov reported: " 'When asked what 'Jurist' [White] knew about 'Pal's' [Silvermaster's] work, the latter replied that 'J' knows where his info. goes, which is precisely why he transmits it in the first place.' "  A Soviet operative held the first direct covert KGB contact with White in July 1944.  White answered a series of questions about American foreign policy, and the report on the meeting went on to say: "As regards the technique of further work with us Jurist [White] said that his wife was ready for any self-sacrifice; he himself did not think about his personal security, but a compromise would lead to a political scandal and the discredit of all supporters of the new course, therefore he would have to be very cautious.... Jurist has no suitable apartment for a permanent meeting place; all his friends are family people.  Meetings could be held at their houses in such a way that one meeting devolved on each every 4-5 months.  He proposes infrequent conversations lasting up to half an hour while driving in his automobile."  Silvermaster, however, was angered by the meeting, and his hostile reaction to having been bypassed appeared to have caused the KGB New York station to defer additional direct contacts for a time. [118]
::[118]  "Maxim on Mer's first conversation with Pal." circa mid 1944, KGB file 35112, v4, p148, Vassiliev, White #3, 16.  Venona 1119-1121 KGB New York to Moscow, 4-5 August 1944.  The "new course" referred to a policy of American accommodation of Soviet foreign policy goals.  Venona 1388-1389 KGB New York to Moscow, 1 October 1944.
The most interesting part of this passage—from VENONA 1119-1121—is the Spies footnote #118 which emphasizes how White, who died in 1948, is supporting a Soviet policy that didn't appear until 1954.
Much more likely in context here, new course likely refers to the post War IMF/IBRD effort, since the Bretton Woods conference establishing these institutions ended two weeks previous.
Also, the referenced VENONA cables 1388-1389 	primarily discuss Silvermaster being upset at someone else approaching White.  There is NOTHING about "new course" or Soviet foreign policy goals.  Unless, of course there are additional versions of these cables that Haynes/Klehr/Vassiliev have access to.
I observe at least two serious distortions/errors/mistakes here: #1 the interpretation of new course and #2 the seemingly damning reference to the Silvermaster cable.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DEddy (talk • contribs) 19:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spies 

message: Seems a bit rash to exclude he commentary. She is a professional academic and journalist and had a position at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. It may be her 'personal website', but that doesnt seem much different than if she made a speech at a conference or something saying the same things, and was quoted in a newspaper.  Decora (talk) 14:48, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  a bit rash 

message: The recent book "Operation Snow: How a Soviet Mole in FDR's White House Triggered Pearl Harbor", by John Koster" takes the position that White was not only a spy, but was responsible for the US side of the negotiations that induced Japan to attack Pearl Harbor. The point of the book was that if the US didn't enter WWII, the USSR was going to lose. So efforts were made to get the US into WWII.  --John Nagle (talk) 22:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operation Snow 

message: Heads up here.  That reference to "Spies" is a fatally flawed reference.  Published in 2005 it still references Koltsov(VENONA cover name)/Checulin (real name) as a KGB "agent" when in fact Chechulin was the Deputy Chairman of the Russian Central Bank & the head of the Russian delegation to the Bretton Woods conference.
Who would you expect White to be speaking with?   Chechulin's secretary?
White was still trying to get the Soviets to sign on to the Bretton Woods agreements.
You can remove that line or I will.  DEddy (talk) 18:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Passing Documents reference 

message: If you think other scholars disagree with Steil by all means include them. But please don't try to cover up statements from those you disagree with!
Steil's book has been called “the gold standard on its topic” by the New York Times, “a triumph of economic and diplomatic history” by the Financial Times, and “a superb history” by the Wall Street Journal.
It seems you have a different opinion regarding the scholarly consensus from Steil. Please don't silence Steil, just include other opinions regarding the scholarly consensus.Jimjilin (talk) 14:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's keep this discussion of Steil in one place. I've responded at Talk:Hull_note#Harry_Dexter_White, so perhaps we can continue there. Binksternet (talk) 14:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

text: That Secretary of State Hull was seemingly taking orders from a lowly Treasury functionary seems very odd, particularly given the internal political rivalries of the time. DEddy (talk) 16:27, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just in case: I have created the article Benn Steil. Regards, --Fadesga (talk) 11:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Hull Note

message: Re:  " Benn Steil suggests the Morgenthau Plan "may well have extended the war and inflated Allied casualties."  
Duly note that at the January 1943 Casablanca conference FDR—to Churchill's annoyance—announced "unconditional surrender" for Germany… which also stiffened German resolve & gave Goebbels propaganda fodder.  This is year & a half before Morgenthau Plan.  DEddy (talk) 02:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unconditional Surrender 

message: At what point did Steil become White's biographer?  Is Steil's Bretton Woods book a biography?  DEddy (talk) 17:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: yes it is, but it focuses on a couple key years. Rjensen (talk) 22:39, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  White's Biographer? 

message: Do any of the folks here who so vehmently proclaim that White was without any question a spy, have any idea what his job was?
::he was a top aide to Treasury secty and the chief postwar planner, where he tried to ensure a big role for USSR. Rjensen (talk) 22:38, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  So I may assume you do not know what his job was?  Those are the ROLES he rose to, but what was his JOB?  DEddy (talk) 19:40, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  White's job? 

message: It is my understanding that Chambers complained that White turned over what he wanted to rather than what was asked for.  Does Tannenhaus say something different?  Can someone connect the dots from their own knowledge of this topic and deduce WHAT White wanted from the Soviets?  Am I going to have to dig into—yawn—Blum for a page reference? DEddy (talk) 21:11, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: that is just what Tanenhaus says.  Blum has an index. Rjensen (talk) 23:15, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sam Tannenhaus 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "The Archival Evidence on Harry Dexter White", a summary of references to Harry White found in the Venona decryptions
Is there provenance for this document?  Where's it from?  Who wrote it?  Who posted it?  DEddy (talk) 12:12, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  New External Link? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: can we put his actual job titles at Treasury in the article somewhere?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jwray (talk • contribs) 16:50, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  actual job titles 

message: Is there a reason you continue to insist that his cause of death is mentioned in the lede? This is your opportunity to reach consensus. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:09, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  death by digitalis 

message: ..."It is this chasm between what is known publicly of White's economic and political views, on the one hand, and his clandestine behavior on behalf of the Soviets, on the other, that accounts for the plethora of unpersuasive profiles of the man that have emerged."
Anyone want to ponder this one... HOW did the Soviets pay for the five-year plans in the 1930s (after repudiating Western debt)?
Anyone consider that White possibly gave something (we really don't know what, since "classified information" is a massively overblown & titillating term in DC) in order to (hopefully? possibly?) GET something in return?
Do remember, as a Keynesian (see: "Economic Consequences of the Peace", 1919), White was well aware another war was coming.  Our first venture into the European war is 60,000 troop into North Africa, 18 months AFTER Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union.  To some it was very clear it was necessary to keep the Soviets in the war while we got our war industry going.    DEddy (talk) 01:05, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: A ridiculous suggestion. What would he have just printed a bunch of dollars age sent to them to the Soviet Union? That would have showed up as a massive increase in trade from the United States to the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was a planned economy and questions of how it afforded the five year plan are kind of missing the mark, the economy was inherently based on planning not money and markets, they just ordered the people to correct places, they didn't worry about paying for it. They were largely concerned with the investments of labor they'd have to make and the transport of the materials. I'm not even sure if Soviet enterprises even used money among themselves, laborers would be assigned from the labor pool and the central planners would allocate so and so much labor and so and so much materials from other parts in the supply chain and legally it had to be distributed to them. 2601:140:8900:61D0:4407:F60D:797C:318A (talk) 00:03, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  conflicting profiles