Talk:John Demjanjuk

message: As far as i understand, he became acquitted for being Ivan the terrible. I belive that Ivan the terrible should get his own article, since it is unclear who he was. Now Ivan the Terrible is redirected here.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ulrikrl (talk • contribs) 15:12, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be changed as another man was believed to be Ivan and nowhere has he been convicted of being this man. I question the reasoning of the authors need to label this man as Ivan. Maybe political in nature? 24.101.172.61 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 17:52, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

text: The article, as it now stands, leaves out crucial details that would change the entire story.  I remember following it "live" when Demjanjuk was originally accused and undergoing trial in Israel.  He had an Israeli defense lawyer who ripped many of the prosecution's witnesses apart — witnesses who were obviously senile and confused about where they were and how they got there, never mind being able to reliably identify the accused as "Ivan the Terrible", the former camp guard. — QuicksilverT @ 18:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Ivan 

message: The article currently states in the first paragraph:This [displaced person] category was reserved mainly for former concentration camp prisoners and forced laborers.From personal knowledge, I know this is not true, as most persons who arrived in Germany before the end of the war purely as refugees were housed in "DP" camps, not having previously been prisoners or forced laborers.  Indeed, once in the DP camps, many became forced laborers before the Nazi regime ended in May 1945.  The sentence is misleading, at best. — QuicksilverT @ 18:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Displaced person claim 

message: Please stop adding "alleged".  The man was a convicted war criminal, as our lead here properly says.  His involvement in the Holocaust was not "alleged", it was proven in court resulting in a criminal conviction.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:05, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: An overturned death sentence, then a double jeopardy (oops, "mistaken identity") conviction regarding which an appeal was pending. The dead can't appeal their conviction, that should be noted in the lead as well. We cannot make any assumptions about what the results of that appeal might have been. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 23:02, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree completely with Vecrumba on this.--Львівське (говорити) 05:36, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

text: It's fair to say that he was appealing his conviction at the time of his death. Nevertheless, he was convicted and the article must say that. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 07:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Alleged" involvement in the Holocaust 

message: The Lede is too long and has too much detail. It should b shortened with the detail in the body of the article. Ivan444 (talk) 14:11, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I will cut it. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 07:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Lede

message: Since it's mostly agreed that Demjanjuk was probably not Ivan the Terrible, should there be an article about Ivan? D O N D E groovily Talk to me 15:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it say that's "mostly agreed" in this article? Maybe you could try and establish that first? Good luck. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:07, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I say that based on his Israeli conviction being overturned due to lack of evidence and that the German conviction was for being some other cruel guard, not Ivan. This at least provides enough uncertainly that we shouldn't treat Demjanjuk and Ivan as the same person. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 16:26, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: And I say that based on what I can read in this article. I think you'll find that this article is the start point for anything else you, or anyone else, may wish to add. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not talking about adding, I'm talking about a new article. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 19:22, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That's adding, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Nobody, apart from some journalists who haven't been paying attention, still thinks that Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible.  A separate article is indeed a good idea. Zerotalk 04:28, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Is Ivan the Terrible's real name known? Wasn't there a suggestion that he was also called Demjanjuk, a cousin of this one? And if there is to be an article, it should not be called Ivan the Terrible (Nazi). To categorise Ukrainian auxilliaries as "Nazis" is an opinion, not a fact. It should be "Ivan the Terrible" (Treblinka guard). Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 05:12, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  One of the reasons for his acquittal in Israel was evidence that "Ivan the Terrible" was someone called Ivan Marchenko. However, I over-spoke with my phrase "some journalists who haven't been paying attention"; apparently one of the original Israeli judges thinks so too.   It doesn't say how she reconciles this with the German court finding that he was a Sobibor rather than Treblinka. Zerotalk 06:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, is it clear in this article, and agreed by all parties through consensus, that John Demjanjuk was definitely not Ivan the Terrible? We don't want two articles about the same person. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:06, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nothing is definite, but we shouldn't have a single article on two people who only a minority of experts consider to be the same.  Of course both articles should mention the issue of identification. Zerotalk 09:30, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think you need to establish in this article that this person was not Ivan the Terrible before you create a new article. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not Wikipedia's job to establish things - that's original research. What Wikipedia can do is to point out that Demjanjuk was tried twice, and both trials found (eventually) that he was not at Treblinka, and that therefore he was not "Ivan the Terrible." Since he was not, someone else was. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 11:09, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Does this article say that? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Did he die a convicted man or an innocent man? Which of these outcomes proved that he was not at Treblinka? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:39, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Summary: He was tried in the 80s in an Israeli court for being Ivan, but the conviction was overturned due to weak evidence. A German court convicted him of being a DIFFERENT guard at a different concentration camp, and he was convicted. When he died, the conviction was under appeal, so technically under German law, he is considered innocent. However, even his guilty conviction isn't for being Ivan, but for being someone else. But creating an Ivan the Terrible article doesn't require proof. Treating Demjanjuk and Ivan as the same person does. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 14:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  That summary seems quite fair. I am still unsure how much can be put into a new article that's not contained in this one. But it might help to make the situation clearer. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:23, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, this article rightly doesn't describe Ivan's crimes, in fact, all it really says is that he was a notorious guard. There is plenty to say about the guy about his role in the Holocaust, stuff that doesn't belong in this article. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 20:34, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  As long as that "plenty to say" can be sourced, then a new article would seem quite feasible. As we know, Wikipedia values verifiabilty above truth. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:42, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Ivan, should Ivan have an article 

message: Is it just me or are there other editors who think too that Bob Sergeant really stept over some Wikipedia's don'ts with with this edit? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Bob" should read WP:SOAPBOX... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time to put a stop to this "Bob"? 

message: The paragraph starting "Demjanjuk was represented by Israeli trial lawyer, Yoram Sheftel" and ending "John Demjanjuk had no response to "gewalt" and had no significant fluency in German." has as its supporting reference a YouTube video. I don't think this is permitted. So I think it needs a "cn" tag. But was this argument seriously used as "evidence" in Demjanjuk's defence?  And if so, how exactly was that claim tested in court? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This was not (AFAIK) ever used as evidence at trial, but it personally convinced his defense lawyer of his innocence. I think it is permitted. This article should be about more than what was said at a trial. Rwflammang (talk) 00:27, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gewalt 

message: I don't see them.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.239.209.92 (talk) 08:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  footnote 

message: I would agree with some of the previous writers, that they need to put up a separate page for "Ivan the Terrible," the guard at Treblinka. It was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it was someone else, namely Ivan Marchenko. If they put it under "Marchenko," then "Ivan the Terrible," should redirect there.
John (Ivan) Demjanjuk was accused and found guilty in a German court of being a Ukrainian "Helper," in other words, a guard at a Nazi death camp.
Unfortunately the article's tone is not neutral at all. The author of it makes it seem that he was an innocent man accused of a crime he did not commit , when in fact he was convicted and died during his appeal. The fact of his deportation from the US on the basis of numerous pieces of evidence -NOT merely the contested ID Card- indicates that the allegation of a conspiracy against an innocent man is sheer fiction.
74.239.209.92 (talk) 07:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  page needed 

message: John Demjanjuk
 
You inserted text inside of a link which 'broke' it. The original link was Stroop Report which is good blue: Stroop Report. Your edit was according to the 'Stroop Report' which is a red, or non-functioning link: according to the 'Stroop Report'.
--
Thanks for the attention. The way it's posted still doesn't make sense to me. I can see the } at the end of 'Stroop Report,' which doesn't serve any purpose to the reader, but since I don't know how to fix it,I will leave it as is [stet].  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.239.209.92 (talk) 08:11, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  edit 

message: I've added a citation needed tag to the Background chapter, as it states there, that Soviet POW's joined the German army mainly because of lack of nutrition. The reference cited does not have such statement. Additionally this contradicts with the last sentence of the paragraph, which gives political reasons for volunteering. 88.195.195.54 (talk) 13:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voluntary soldiers 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hi!
In the section "Death and posthumous appeal to restore US citizenship" we state, that "no evidence emerged", that could prove Busch's allegations.
But: Metamizole is banned in the US; and in germany it shall not be given to people with certain kidney malfunction or hematosis disorders (D. had both according to Busch...)... I wonder if the german state attorney did his investigation properly (even though misuse of Metamizole seems to be a common practice in germany since the German Medical Association published several papers about misuse of Metamizole ())...
Is there some other source that claims that the german state attorney did it right?
Bye. --Homer Landskirty (talk) 06:43, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  metamizole / no wrongdoing? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Early 2019 legal actions in Europe dealt with John Demjanjuk family member's requesting reimbursement for certain expenses and their concerns that judicial rulings had impuned his presumption of innocence. The European Court of Human Rights's judicial rulings are available in its judgement of 24 January 2019 CASE OF DEMJANJUK v. GERMANY (Application no. 24247/15).  These legal actions did not change Demjanjuk's status before the law:
"CASE OF DEMJANJUK v. GERMANY
(Application no. 24247/15)
On 12 May 2011 the Munich Regional Court II, after 91 days of trial,
convicted John Demjanjuk on 16 counts as an accessory to the murder of atleast 28,060 persons. It found it established that he had, in his capacity as a guard in the Sobibór extermination camp, aided and abetted the systematic murder of persons who had been deported to the said camp in 16 convoys between 27 March 1943 and September 1943. It sentenced him to a total of five years’ imprisonment for these crimes. The judgment ran to 220 pages plus appendices … By decision of 5 April 2012 the Munich Regional Court II discontinued the proceedings in accordance with Article 206a § 1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure due to the death of the accused."
Bryantbob (talk) 01:25, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: 2019 Developments

message: Preserving here by providing this link: ; my rationale was: "rm uncited / undue opinion by an immigration attorney who appears to have been a supporter / non RS blog". --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:59, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edit 

message: The following text
is currently partially cited to an article not available on the Guardian website. The first article cited, however, at Haaretz, says absolutely nothing about Nagorny "raising doubts". It simply says . The text needs to be rewritten so as not to overtly support the defense case.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:09, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsupported text 

message: The section "Second Round of Charges in the US" currently gives the impression of having been written in a breaking news style while it occurred. There's no reason, for instance, to have so many words and two separate subsections describing the issuance and lifting of the stay of Demjanjuk's deportation by the 6th circuit court. I will try to work on shortening it myself, but I don't necessarily have a lot of time.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:48, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree: the blow-by-blow account was unnecessary. Thank you for reducing the length of this section. --K.e.coffman (talk) 13:44, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length of Second Round of Charges in the US 

message: Why is this article written using DMY format? Demjanjuk lived most of his life in the United States, where MDY is the normal format for dates. The fact that Israel and Germany use DMY is not really an argument, given that neither speak English natively. I believe that format should be changed, and that the article should be noted as written in American English as well, given Demjanjuk's inherent connection to the US.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume convention. There are certainly other options. François Robere (talk) 04:54, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Day Month Year format 

message: How could he have been "Ivan the Terrible", who was born in March 1911? (86.160.157.144 (talk) 18:46, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You're assuming that Ivan the Terrible is a specific person with a specific birth date. (We think) we know that now but the identity of Ivan the Terrible wasn't known when Demjanjuk was charged. Anyway, the article does not say Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible, so there's no reason to prove he couldn't be without a source stating the information.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:05, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Born in 1920 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: He cannot have been born in 1920 in the Soviet Union since there was no Soviet Union in 1920. 83.249.166.23 (talk) 00:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point! I've removed the term "Soviet Union" on my understanding that this area would have been part of the independent Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic at that point. But I might be misunderstanding, so somebody with better knowledge of Ukrainian history should probably have a look.Botterweg14 (talk) 01:44, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sovet Union 

message: This article is locked, so I can't make correction.
Lawrence Douglas is not a historian.  He is a lecturer in law at Amherst College. Historiaantiqua (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. He's not a lecturer though, he's a professor.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:00, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lawrence Douglas 

message: Please correct spelling “prosection” to “prosecution”. 2603:6080:650B:C800:E4D5:C5A5:9474:7936 (talk) 16:36, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:46, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 December 2020 

message: There is a small spelling mistake in Demjanjuk's last name, section "Defense case and Demjanjuk's testimony", first word of the third paragraph. It says "Demjnajuk", and should say "Demjanjuk".
Angelusgutmann (talk) 01:36, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:26, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small spelling mistake 

message: He was deemed innoccent by both German and Israeli courts, so why does this article state he was a camp guard when both times he was tried he was deemed innoccent (Yes, I am aware the he died before appeals where heard in the german case, but that results in a innoccent verdict.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C5E:2100:EF7F:0:0:0:1000 (talk) 19:23, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: He was not "deemed innocent" by a German court, he was found guilty. Even the Israeli supreme court that said there was reasonable doubt about him being Ivan the Terrible said he was probably a guard. He's "innocent" only in the most technical, legalistic sense. Besides, historians have concluded he was a guard, and we follow what WP:RS say.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:45, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

text: Have you actually read the article? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:48, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

text: The status "into abeyance" does not mean someone was "innocent". There are other sources. Where are your good historical sources that he was "innocent"? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You clearly haven’t read the article, IP. And  if Wikipedia is biased against Nazis then I’m proud of Wikipedia.—Ermenrich (talk) 13:34, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:   Deemed innocent by both German and Israeli courts 

message: Senator Jacob Javits was a Republican. A very liberal one, but he should have an "R" after his name, not a "D." 2601:249:1000:4D00:ACBC:2C06:333E:426F (talk) 04:15, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:27, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 July 2021 

message: Please change
Demjanjuk appealed his extradition with the case heard on 8 July 1985. Demjanjuk's defense attorneys claimed that the evidence against him had been manufactured by the KGB,
to
Demjanjuk appealed his extradition.  In a hearing on 8 July 1985, Demjanjuk's defense attorneys claimed that the evidence against him had been manufactured by the KGB,
I know what it means, but "with the case heard" doesn't sound right at all. 64.203.186.98 (talk) 16:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: . I have also joined the two sentences with a semi-colon. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 August 2021 

message: In the "Background" sections, second paragraph, Sobibor is stated as being a "concentration camp", when in fact it was one of the Operation Reinhard "Extermination Camps". The link directs to the article "Sobibor Extermination Camp", so this language should be changed to reflect the true nature of the camp. Maxq32 (talk) 16:26, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background info update 

message: The article gives "Brooklyn Heights cemetery in Parma, Ohio" as his (formerly undisclosed) burial site. No source is given. I have tagged the sentence as dubious, as a Google search provides conflicting evidence. For example, the burial site is given as "Saint Andrew Cemetery, South Bound Brook, Somerset County, New Jersey" by FindaGrave, with photos of the alleged burial site, taken in 2020 and 2021. The photos show his name and correct days of birth and death on the stone. I can't verify that the photos were taken where they are claimed to be (New Jersey, rather than Ohio), or that they are genuine. A reliable source is needed, ideally one that is recent and refutes the alternative sites. Renerpho (talk) 01:15, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we can just remove the info - it’s not very important and if there are reliable sources that say where it is we can add it again.—Ermenrich (talk) 01:33, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burial site 

message: This page states that he was misidentified as a matter of fact. His family members also say that he was exonerated. His conviction was overturned by the supreme courts of Israel because newly revealed Soviet documents identified Ivan the Treblinka guard as Ivan Machenko. It is worth noting that John demjanjuk wrote his mother's maiden name is Machenko on his visa application. Strangely his mother's maiden name was not Machenko. 
The supreme court of Israel overturned his conviction because of doubt they said. So as a matter of fact it cannot be said the witnesses misidentified John demjanjuk only that they possibly misidentified him. 
I believe to be factually correct the article here shoul be corrected to say
A. that witnesses possibly misidentified John demjanjuk after new documents showed Ivan the Treblinka guard is Ivan Machenko.
B. As well as mention johnn demjanjuks connection to the name Machenko 2600:1002:B008:61C4:0:4D:40A6:1B01 (talk) 14:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: We follow RS which say he was wrongfully convicted the first time. And we already mention the connection to the name Marchenko.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:08, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 December 2022 

message: Move the portal bar to the bottom of the page. It does not belong in See also. Changing it to a regular portal template is not possible space-wise. SeeAlsoPolice (talk) 22:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Lightoil (talk) 08:12, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 January 2023 

message: To add to the text of this article (in order to help make it more properly encyclopedic): exactly where Demjanjuk was from. The current text reads as follows:
:Demjanjuk was born in Dubovi Makharyntsi, a farming village in the western part of Soviet Ukraine.
But this isn't specific enough.  Can't we add exactly where Dubovi Makharyntsi was located? Isn't it actually in central Ukraine, near Kyiv?
173.88.246.138 (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  To add to article