Talk:Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith)

message: This is getting quite interesting. I was just reading some of your thoughts on this page as well as the changes to the encyclopedia page. I must say: the overall result is very well done. I just noted the new changes. You are correct! We may have to add a new page, I will pray and meditate on it and I will let you know what page name I think will be good. Nice Quotes! I was going to put in some of those, but I am delighted with our discussion. Some of the more nigtty-gritty things like the "24" minor prophets, is very difficult to find. I would not worry about that for now until I can find some references. Nmentha 08:56, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Overall Look

message: I have heard almost every Baha'i I know talking on the subject use the same reasoning as you mentioned... that Muhammad was the Seal of the Ademic cycle, and that's why he said "Seal of the Prophets." But I have never heard this used anywhere in the writings, and in fact Baha'u'llah wrote an entire book on the subject and never mentioned it. Baha'u'llah referenced other verses in the Qur'an where Muhammad said that He is "all of the Prophets", as well as "the first Adam." Then Baha'u'llah says that every Messenger is the "first and the last", any one of them can say that they are the "Seal of the Prophets." I think this is the more correct way to deal with this subject, and I can respect other reasonings if they have references.
To make edits on this subject I suggest we use Bahá'í_Faith_and_World_Religions#Seal_of_the_Prophets.   Cunado19 03:30, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Seal of the Prophets

message: Just to lay down some terminology...
*Manifestation, Prophet, Messenger, Independent, Universal, Greater, Founder, and others all mean the same thing. Includes Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, etc.
*minor prophet, prophet, follower, lesser, dependent, and others all mean the same thing. Who is included is discussed here.
Yes I agree the terminology can be very confusing, and if we want to go into much detail I think it needs its own page. Maybe Bahá'í Faith and Prophets or Prophets (Bahá'í), and link it from Manifestation of God and Baha'i Teachings. For now we can expand it on this page. 
I'm not sure that I agree with everything so far. I think both our understanding of the Greater Prophets is the same. For the minor prophets, from the references you gave, I didn't see anywhere that pointed to the Baha'i Faith as having a series of minor prophets, let alone saying that there will be 24 of them. I found the following quotes, which after reading them, I'm a bit more confused than when I started. In almost every case, unless the reference to "Prophet" is accompanied by a more detailed explanation of what it means, it's hard to say that it's a conclusive statement.
:“The Prophets ‘regarded as One and the same person’ include the Lesser Prophets as well, and not merely Those Who bring a ‘Book”. The station is different, but they are Prophets and Their nature thus different from that of ours.
:“In the prayer mentioned above Bahá’u’lláh identifies Himself with Imam Husayn. This does not make him a Prophet, but his position was very unique, and we know Bahá’u’lláh claims to be the ‘return’ of the Imam Husayn.
::(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 498)
:“As to the list of the prophets with whom Bahá’u’lláh identifies Himself... their names are as follows: Abraham, Moses, Joseph, John the Baptist, Jesus, Imam Husayn...(and) the Báb.”
::(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 475)
My question that this answered was: Abdu'l Baha defined three categories, God, the station of Prophethood, and mankind. Are the minor prophets in the station of Prophethood, or in the station of mankind? And notice that Imam Husayn is not a Prophet, but is a prophet.
:“Regarding Lao-Tse; the Bahá’ís do not consider him a prophet, or even a secondary prophet or messenger, unlike Buddha or Zoroaster, both of whom were Divinely-appointed and fully independent Manifestations of God.
::(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 502)
:“Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise.
::(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 484)
:"Abdu’l-Bahá’s station is not that of a Manifestation of God
::(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 18)
:"That Abdu’l-Bahá is not a Manifestation of God, that, though the successor of His Father, He does not occupy a cognate station	
::(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 132)
:"He is, above and beyond these appellations, the “Mystery of God”—an expression by which Bahá’u’lláh Himself has chosen to designate Him, and which, while it does not by any means justify us to assign to Him the station of Prophethood, indicates how in the person of Abdu’l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized. 
::(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 134)
:"That Abdu’l-Bahá is not a Manifestation of God, that He gets His light, His inspiration and sustenance direct from the Fountain-head of the Bahá’í Revelation; that He reflects even as a clear and perfect Mirror the rays of Bahá’u’lláh’s glory, and does not inherently possess that indefinable yet all-pervading reality the exclusive possession of which is the hallmark of Prophethood;"
::(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139)
:"however great the gulf that separates Him from the Author of a Divine Revelation it can never measure with the distance that stands between Him Who is the Center of Bahá’u’lláh’s Covenant and the Guardians who are its chosen ministers. There is a far, far greater distance separating the Guardian from the Center of the Covenant than there is between the Center of the Covenant and its Author."
::(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 150)
:"For example, Peter cannot become Christ. All that he can do is, in the condition of servitude, to attain endless perfections..."
::(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 329)
It's remarkably clear that Abdu'l Baha was not a Greater Prophet. Being a minor prophet is possible but not explicitly clear. From these and other verses I would guess that He was not. And certainly Shoghi Effendi was not.
It is clear that John the Baptist was, Imam Ali was, Imam Husayn was, and Quddus was. Peter appears to be mentioned as not being a prophet, and nothing suggests that he was. If he was the "Chief of the Apostles" then certainly the others weren't prophets. Other than these, the reference you have saying that all the apostles of Christ were minor prophets is from an individual's article, and not any kind of authoritative Baha'i text. At the end of the article it says 
::"Kamran Hakim is a member of the Baha'i Faith. The opinions expressed in this article constitute his own personal understanding and do not necessarily represent the official position of the Baha'i Faith or it's teachings." 
I don't see any reference beyond the above mentioned individuals as being minor prophets since the appearance of Jesus. 
This was very interesting, if you find more information please continue the discussion, and maybe we can consolidate all this work onto a wiki page. Cunado19 03:30, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor, Lesser, Dependent, Follower (P)prophets

message: In a letter from the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice of 6 July 1994 some statements are made on this subject. Maybe you'd like to use them. Wiki-uk 16:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Station of founders of New religious movements

message: Why was here removed from "Other possible divine teachers?" Zazaban 18:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any source that states that in the Baha'i view he was a possible divine teacher? No source, no inclusion. -- Jeff3000 19:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: All other possible divine teachers have a reference for the Baha'i viewpoint; usually from Lights of Guidance or from Shoghi Effendi's writings. -- Jeff3000 00:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quetzalcoatl 

message: Shouldn't he be on the list? He is clearly stated as being a Manifestation; He even got a cycle named after him! Zazaban 04:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adam 

message: very indirectly, I beleive this quote supports the idea:
For more than twenty years this people have, day and night, been subjected to the fury of the Sovereign's wrath, and have been scattered by the tempestuous gales of his displeasure, each to a different land. How many the children who have been left fatherless, and how many the fathers who have lost their sons! How many the mothers who have dared not, out of fear and dread, to mourn their slaughtered offspring! How numerous those who, at eventide, were possessed of utmost wealth and affluence, and who, when morning came, had fallen into utter abasement and destitution! No land is there whose soil hath not been tinged with their blood, nor reach of heaven unto which their sighs have not ascended. Throughout the years the darts of affliction have unceasingly rained down from the clouds of God's decree, yet despite all these calamities and tribulations, the flame of divine love hath so blazed in their hearts that even should their bodies be torn asunder they would not forsake their love of Him Who is the Best-Beloved of the worlds, but would welcome with heart and soul whatever might befall them in the path of God. In context this is talking about the martyrs in Persia - from the Tablet to Násiri'd-Dín Sháh, paragraph 220 here. However the line "No land is there whose soil hath not been tinged with their blood, nor reach of heaven unto which their sighs have not ascended." is superlative - and martyrs are associated with Prophets, so therefore I think it's fair to conclude that no land is there who has not seen God's Prophets. Exactly what line to use I life to our mutual creativity and critical thought.--Smkolins 06:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  regarding some large number of unknown prophets 

message: In a few statements above, Quddus was said to be a prophet of God. Can someone provide a source to support those statements?
- Parsa (talk) 22:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quddus 

message: I just read this article and most of the discussions, and I have to say it was pretty muddled and in my opinion did not well represent canonical Baha'i belief. For instance an unsourced statement is:
"Bahá'u'lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Krishna, Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad." If this were true, each should really have a source citation from the writings. Some of these would not be specifically refered to as "Manifestations" in Baha'u'llah's writings currently translated into English, and I believe would probably not even be found in statements attributed to Baha'u'llah in other writings. It may be that Abdu'l-Baha, as interpreter, refered to them as such, but the statement would need to be altered to indicate they were Manifestations according to canonical Baha'i belief. Baha'u'llah does refer to Hud and Saleh as prophets of God, but these are not included. Baha'u'llah himself spoke of the station of Manifestations of God "endowed with constancy" in His writings. I would feel more comfortable with an article refering to the station of the Manifestation rather than trying to list them all.
In some academic works discussing the battle at Shaykh Tabarsi, and writings by the Bab and Islamic hadith related to it, the number of "Messengers" (probably analogous to rasul) is given as 313. The number of lesser prophets or prophets in general is given as over 124000. The 313 defenders at the shrine represented all of God's Messengers, with Quddus as representative of the missing Bab. The completeness of this number is discussed by Nabil (Dawnbreakers p.352, also see p. 15). Then Baha'u'llah arrived as the culmination of prophecies related to the struggle: 
:'The first words that fell from the lips of Quddus after he had dismounted and leaned against the shrine were the following: "The Baqiyyatu'llah [The Remnant of God] will be best for you if ye are of those who believe." [Qur’an 11:85] By this utterance was fulfilled the prophecy of Muhammad as recorded in the following tradition: "And when the Mihdi is made manifest, He shall lean His back against the Ka'bih and shall address to the three hundred and thirteen followers who will have grouped around Him, these words: `The Baqiyyatu'llah will be best for you if ye are of those who believe.'" By "Baqiyyatu'llah" Quddus meant none other than  Baha'u'llah.'
The point is, nobody can definitively say who is major, who is minor, or even if somebody were a prophet or Manifestation at all, unless the writings say so very explicitly. These explicit instances can be given as examples of the type. The number of prophets and even Manifestations could have been very great. Baha'u'llah himself says, "God hath raised up Prophets and revealed Books as numerous as the creatures of the world, and will continue to do so to everlasting." Notice the "revealed Books" , which is given by some as a definition of a major prophet.
The quote by Abdu'l-Baha given on the page seems to indicate that none of it really matters greatly. It's the station that counts. We as mortals can probably not make the call of just who is major and minor when it comes to prophets. The station is one of degree, and may have more to do with the strength of the revelation rather than on the revealer himself.
On this Baha'u'llah says:
:'The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit." '  (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p.50-6)
Baha'u'llah states that "Messengers" have been sent to all parts of the world:
:"Give ear, O My servant, unto that which is being sent down unto thee from the Throne of thy Lord, the Inaccessible, the Most Great.  There is none other God but Him.  He hath called into being His creatures, that they may know Him, Who is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.  Unto the cities of all nations He hath sent His Messengers, Whom He hath commissioned to announce unto men tidings of the Paradise of His good pleasure, and to draw them nigh unto the Haven of abiding security, the Seat of eternal holiness and transcendent glory.:
Baha'u'llah even indicates that all worlds have Manifestations and prophets when he says:
:"O people! I swear by the one true God! This is the Ocean out of which all seas have proceeded, and with which every one of them will ultimately be united. From Him all the Suns have been generated, and unto Him they will all return. Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God's creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing Knowledge, can reckon. This He hath accomplished through the agency of but one Letter of His Word, revealed by His Pen—a Pen moved by His directing Finger—His Finger itself sustained by the power of God's Truth."    (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p.104)
The listing of Manifestations and prophets I think is counterproductive to the thrust of the article which is about the station of the Manifestation of God. A few certain examples would suffice to illustrate who Baha'u'llah categorized as Manifestations.
- Parsa (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your whole argument is based on primary sources which is considered original research and is not permissible.  The fact is that most secondary sources that discuss the term Manifestations of God refer to the personages above including Martin and Hatcher's The Baha'i Faith, Peter Smith's A concise Encyclopedia, and the Iranica article among others.  There are no secondary sources that state that Hud or Saleh are Manifestations of God.  I've looked long and hard.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 00:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Did you read how I changed the article; it states that Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha named some personages as Manifestations of God. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 02:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prophets lists, minor, major, etc. 

message: Is Confucius among any minor prophet narrations? Someone65 (talk) 22:51, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He's not. Various quotes mentions him in the same breath as Buddha but other quotes make it clear Confucius is considered a divine philosopher, like Socrates. See  to clarify several quotes near the top of . Smkolins (talk) 23:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Confucius

message: Is he considered a manifestation or a minor prophet of the Baha'i religion?--Splashen (talk) 00:20, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Guru Nanak Dev