Talk:Constantine II of Greece/Archive 3

message: Michalis Famelis has recently disputed the descent of Constantine II of Greece from Alexius I Comnenus without mentioning his reasons. The descent goes
*Alexius I Comnenus (1048 - 1118). 
*Theodora Comnena Porphyrogenita.
*Andronikos Angelos.
*Alexius III Angelus. 
*Anna Angelina. Wife of Theodore I Lascaris.
*Maria Laskarina. Wife of Béla IV of Hungary.
*Maria of Hungary. Wife of Charles II of Naples.
*Leonora of Naples. Wife of Frederick III of Sicily.
*Peter II of Sicily.
*Elionor of Sicily. Wife of Peter IV of Aragon.
*Eleanor of Aragon. Wife of John I of Castile.
*Ferdinand I of Aragon.
*John II of Aragon. 
*Ferdinand II of Aragon. Husband and co-ruler of Isabella I of Castile.
*Juana of Castile. Queen regnant and wife of Philip the Handsome.
*Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor.
*Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor.
*Maria of Habsburg, Archduchess of Austria. Wife of Wilhelm, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg.
*Marie Eleonore of Cleves. Wife of Albert Frederick.
*Anna of Prussia. Wife of John Sigismund, Margrave of Brandenburg.
*George William of Brandenburg.
*Frederick William, Elector of Brandenburg.
*Frederick I of Prussia.
*Frederick William I of Prussia.
*Augustus William, Prince of Prussia.
*Frederick William II of Prussia.
*Frederick William III of Prussia.
*Wilhelm I of Germany.
*Friedrich III of Germany (Hohenzollern).
*Sophia of Prussia. Wife of Constantine I of Greece.
*Paul of Greece.
*Constantine II of Greece.
Not that you could not research the descent through several other ancestral lines. Please research before you dismiss something as a fiction. Constantine II has many ancestors with their own Wikipedia articles. I am Greek myself and I admit to finding the ancestry of Constantine much more interesting than the individual. User:Dimadick
That would make him one part in 2,147,483,648, or roughly one two-billionth, Greek. Thavmasios. Adam 11:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, Dimadick, you provide a genealogy, but no source for it. Please cite your sources. Secondly, if there is any meaning in the above, then all or most royalty in Europe have a greek ancestry, so a mention of such in this one would be superfluous, don't you think? Thirdly, why can I not find a mention of this in other WP articles? And fourthly, there is really no need to "prove" Constantine's greekness: He's as much greek as any person who has been born and raised in Greece, from the "pure" mountain villager to the albanian immigrant's daughter... --Michalis Famelis 13:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't have the time to look at the above articles right now (Java calling) but I will trust that you act in good faith. I dismissed the idea as fiction due to the fact that I have met hardline monarchists who think that Constantine is something like the Palaiologus incarnated or something, and I think that such theories are nothing more than Liakopoulos-style national mysticism. I would argue that the very idea of "greek blood" (or "danish blood", or"afgani blood", or "whatever blood") is flawed and also kind of racist, even in a metaphorical way, but that would be a largely offtopic discussion. Anyway, if we are to have a reference to this ancestry, this genealogical line  should be accessible from the article and not in the talk page. But my general attitude about all this is that it really is not notable. (you could argue that the "kokos" reference is equally non notable, but ...whatever!) --Michalis Famelis 22:52, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: John, I explained above why I removed the phrase. I didn't have access to the line that Dimadick provided afterwards, and obviously one is prone to be suscpicious of such claims if no citation is given. The citation was given and I accepted Dimadick's good faith, and I hope this made clear that I accepted the grain of truth in those claims. That said I want to point out two things: firstly, if this genealogical line is to be mentioned in the article, the given list must be accesible at the article space, not the talk page. That could mean even that those interested in having this in the article should go to lenghts to even add such information to the article about the former greek royal family, not just this one article. The second thing I'd like to note, is this attitude about greek democrats. You say that we/they go to an extent pointing out Constantine's "ungreekness" (as I said before he's not any less greek than any person born and raised in greece). I hear this repeated over and over in these talk pages, but I have not seen any real citation confirming such an attitude. Could you please point me to one? --Michalis Famelis 08:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancestry 

message: This whole argument arose from the silly paragraph about the various silly nicknames he is called in the Greek press. This whole topic is trivial and hopelessly POV, so I have deleted it. It adds nothing of value to the article and we are better off without the endless arguments it causes. Adam 06:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hopeless POV

message: I have also done (again) a substantial copyedit and removed a lot of irrelevant detail about Greek politics in the 1960s. This is a biographical article and not a chronicle of Greek politics. I will revert any reintroduction of this material into the article, particularly since it also involves my various other changes being reverted at the same time. Adam 02:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I will agree with Adam Carr's edits/removals to the article. This is a biographical article after all. Sure the background historical events must be mentioned albeit briefly and with links to articles of their own. Rather than elaborating the Apostasia in this article we should improve the Apostasia of 1965 article and link to that in a brief summary here. Apart from that, I too think that "Apostasia" is the most commonly used term to refer to those events. The fact that the term carries negative connotations is rather irrelevant. But that discussion should take place in the article's talk page. --Michalis Famelis 17:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reversion

message: I think that it is POV to mention that calling Constantine a King upsets the Governments. We can't know what upsets them
and, anyway, it makes no difference. The point is that by calling him a 'King of Greece', is to give him an official Hellenic title, and this act shows disregard for the Constitution of Greece. Also check ; you will see that there are no titles as, for instance, in some other countries (Sir, King, dukes, etc). He can be duke of a place in countries that support such titles (ex.UK, Denmark...), but he can't call him self duke of Sparta or duke of Myconos because there is no such thing as duke or King or Sir. Svetlyo 09:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Whoever wrote this, please use the for tildes to identify yourself. I take pride in the fact that all of my edits are oriented to a more balanced NPOV approach. I feel that were it not for my edits, this article would be very much skewed against Constantine. This is Wikipedia, not a Greek university amphiteater in the mid 1970s! I am not a vandal, unless this is what you wish to call whomever you may disagree with. Rastapopoulos 09:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Titles, Kings and the Hellenic Constitution

message: there is a small wikireferendum taking place on Constantine's wife's wikiarticle. Some want to move it from Anne-Marie_of_Greece
to Queen Anne-Marie of Greece. The result will affect this site also. Stevepeterson 23:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anne Maria

message: I have raised the subject of how the articles about the ex-King's and ex-Queen's grandchildren (those born after 1974) should by titled. Please share your opinions here. --Michalis Famelis 18:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  IMHO, all Constantine offspring born after the 1974 plebiscite are not entitled to any Greek Royal titles. Of course, they may well use Danish titles, Danish Law permitting Rastapopoulos 13:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The question is not whether they are entitled to them, but whether they use them.  Which they do.  This, too, is fairly standard for former royal families.  King Michael's daughters were all styled "Princess of Romania;" King Simeon's children are all "Prince/ss of Bulgaria," the former Yugoslav royal family does the same (and their country doesn't even exist anymore! Though, it must be said, they've changed their principal style to "Prince/ss of Serbia, iirc).  The German dynasties don't officially use their titles, but effectively do, having attached them to their names.  The Orleans's use various courtesy titles, and the generic title "Prince of Orleans."  The House of Savoy uses "Prince/ss of Savoy," and various courtesy titles.  The House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies uses "Prince /ss of Bourbon-Two Sicilies," and various courtesy titles.  The House of Bourbon-Parma uses "Prince/ss of Bourbon-Parma."  The Habsburgs still sometimes use "Archduke of Austria," even though they are forbidden by law from doing so in Austria.  The Russian Imperial House still uses "Grand Duke/Duchess of Russia." Courtesy titles are also used by the Portuguese royal house - I'm not sure about the generic "Infant/a of Portugal," but I think it is in use. Usually, such use of styles is not sanctioned by the republican governments of the country these people once ruled, and when this is the case, it should be noted.  But the basic fact is that our article titles aren't based around what the government of some country says your name is.  It is based around what name is most commonly used.  And Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, &c. are the most commonly used styles for members of the former Greek royal family, including ones born after the monarchy ended.  john k 14:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion of Naming Policy regarding the ex-King's grandchildren 

message: Where does the title 'Constantine of Greece' come from? In Greek it would have to be, 'Konstandinos B' tis Elladas' or 'Konstandinos B' Elladas'; that was never the case and it also sounds quite absurd. Could it be that the title is the product of his British links and residence following the restoration of democracy in Greece? Certainly, titles bearing the name of countries come at a premium in England's monarchic circles. Euxaristw Politis 11:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Was there a 'Constantine II of Greece?