Talk:Di indigetes

message: Where does Aradia come in? Can someone provide evidence that Aradia was worshipped in Classical Roman religion?
And what about Trivia, the three faced Goddess of the Crossroads, is she included in this category?Lily20 (talk) 19:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Livy tells us that Juno was a Veian goddess who was formally introduced into the Roman pantheon when Veii was conquered, thus, she was an Etruscan deity originally.  Does she really belong in this list?
Mon Vier
:I do not believe that most contemporary mythologists agree with Livy's assessment, and I know there are at least a fair number of sources that list Juno as one of the earlier Roman gods (hence why Iuno is believed by many authorities to be of Indo-European derivation); see the Juno (mythology) page. However, I can't see any reason whatsoever that such information can't be included on the page. The worst thing this page can do is make POVed, Original-Research, arbitrary decisions about exactly which gods do or don't belong on the page behind the scenes. What we should do instead is provide sources supporting each individual included on the list (and sources contradicting such assessments too, where they exist), and explain when there's a disagreement over where a god originates. As it stands, this page is currently almost entirely useless: its inconsistent (at the top it claims that Ops is one of the indigetes, but Ops isn't actually on the list!), completely unreferenced, and totally unexplained. In addition to adding references, clarifying exactly what an "indigetes" is (the current explanation at the top of the page is both poor and biased, reflecting only one interpretation of the original meaning) and explaining when there's disagreement between reputable sources over a deity rather than just deciding where to include or exclude the entry. Additionally, a major problem with this page is the lack of description for each entry, making the list useless to anyone who doesn't want to waste hours visiting each individual entry, in most cases just to find a basic, simplistic stub. A much more efficient would be one more like that used in Etruscan mythology, the Latin di indigetes page, etc., where instead of having hundreds of isolated stub islets, we centralize the information on a single, organized list and only have distinct articles for the really noteworthy Di indigetes—the ones who have a genuine chance of ever expanding beyond stubhood, like Angerona. I've been experimenting with a few possible formats for such a table recently, on User:Silence/Deae (it's almost entirely lacking the end-information, but it should give the right idea). -Silence 11:50, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Juno

message: Was this classification used by the Romans or is it a later ellaboration by Wissowa?
:It's a Latin term. How they used it I don;t think we know. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this original? 

message: I have removed a redlink for Jana (mythology). If evidence of this person (a doublet of Janus?) show up, please write her article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jana

message: I added Neptune, but I wonder if the word itself is Etruscan from Nethuns or if they have a common origin. Maybe it should be removed. Also, Mercurius may not have been an old latin god, but that isn't saying he wasn't indigenous as a newer personification of several older gods. I think I will add mercury as a "newer" indigenous deity. Nagelfar 17:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: After some reflection it seems if we remove Neptune, we'd by the same logic have to remove Vertumnus & probably some others. Though this might be what has to be done. Nagelfar 19:37, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neptune 

message: Poena was adopted from Greek Mythology and her name is etymologically Greek. See here:  http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Poine.html
-- 70.57.146.137 (talk) 05:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poena 

message: Mutinus Mutunus (and maybe some others) redirect to their clearly non-indigenous adopted mythology under the names of foreign deities and myths rather than the direct Roman personification before being equated to the myths of folklores from abroad. Nagelfar (talk) 09:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mutinus Mutunus 

message: I think this article should try and make clear the term has been used in different ways and means different things.
Namely the di indigetes as Jupiter Indiges, Sol Indiges of Lanuvium, the Dii Indigetes of Arpinum and Preneste, those of the formula of the devotion in Livy: these are the secret patrons of their hometowns, whose name could not be pronounced: Festus p.94 L Indigetes, dii quorum nomina vulgari non licet. Servius ad Aen. II, 351 Romani celatum esse volureunt in cuius dei tutela urbs Roma sit et iure Pontificum cautum est ne suis nominbus dii romani appellantur ne exaugurari possint. Ie they were kept secret because it was feared they could be evocated (taken away) by foreigners.
Another thing are the indigitamenta of say Tellus, Terra, Ops, Ceres, Maia, Maiestas, Bona Dea each with their extended families of minor gods. It may have looked like a tree graph.Aldrasto11 (talk) 05:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: The author(s) of this article do not quote any authority to support their list of indigetes. Could this point be made explixt?Aldrasto11 (talk) 05:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, what is the source for the list of names given here as indigetes? Cynwolfe (talk) 13:51, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this source, Wissowa listed 33 indigetes. Since Wissowa's dichotomy of indigetes and novensiles no longer holds the sway it once did, this raises the question of whether or how his list should be included. Otherwise, this source asserts that we don't know the list, that it's conjectural. If you think it's worth giving Wissowa's list in the interest of representing the history of scholarship on this point, I'll delete the current list and replace it with W's list, clearly identifying it as his list, not that of an ancient source. If there are other lists offered by scholars, we can deal with those perhaps in relation to W's: "So-and-so omits [certain deities], but adds [certain others]." Is that feasible? Cynwolfe (talk) 15:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I now have doubts about the usefulness of a list as such. I'm going to tag the list in the article. I have Wissowa on file, and he in fact doesn't produce a list as such; the list imagined by the source above would have to be compiled or pulled from W's article, which discusses rather than lists (as I should've suspected). The approach you outline in the previous section, Aldrasto, seems better: taking each ancient source one by one. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Wissowa's article is available in full online, if you'd like to get started culling a list. I probably won't have much time over the next few days, as it's a holiday weekend in the U.S. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

text: "Driving force" makes a lot of sense. Could you give a more specific citation for Grenier? I'd like to find out more about this. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

text: I find Sol Indiges particularly mysterious and intriguing, and hope one day to find time to learn more about him. Thank you for your notes. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Question

message: As I pointed out in the body of the article indiges seems to have been translated or interpreted as chthonios by Greek writers (Dion. Hal. and Iohannes Lydus de Ostentis 2-3). This would brig to a breakthrough in the understanding of the concept itself. Indiges would mean the divine principle that has become the force that drives life on earth. Connexions with the Etruscan concept of Penates and the mysteric and orphic traditions are obvious.
Anttilla remarked a correspondence in the formation of archaic words related to the agricultural cycle and indiges: merges/mergitis, seges/segetis.
To these one can add *veges/vegetis which has given adj. vegetus lively, from vegere to quicken, arouse (hence vegetare to quicken, enliven; vegetable fit for life, full of life). Also vigere to be lively, vigilare, vigil awake, a watching Cf. Skeat 's Etym. dict. All such formations are allied to vigor energy, liveliness.Aldrasto11 (talk) 04:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remarks on some relevant details 

message: Old revision containing a list of "indigenous" Roman deities. Nagelfar (talk) 12:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This list was unsourced; there is no scholarly agreement that the gods known as indigetes were the collective "indigenous" gods of the Romans; and even if one follows Wissowa without qualification, as noted above his article lists only 33 indigetes. So it seems rather to be a list of gods who had Latin or other Italic names. Those using the list for reconstructivist or other devotional reasons should be aware of what it is. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:17, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: For instance the deified Aeneas, who in the Roman tradition was emphatically an immigrant, was called Indiges. This is one of the reasons to doubt the title meant "indigenous." Cynwolfe (talk) 15:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Permanent link to list. 

message: Despite this; that is one source and not an "end all", but to accomplish a truly NPOV, being wikipedia, we whom are interesting in the authenticity and elucidation of this specific page should at least have other scholars who have given their enumerations of what would be an inclusive list from among those they specifically believe to be within the scope of the di indigetes and why they have a rationale as such for them being so. This is WP after all, it shouldn't have the issue shut down because one authority says the question is unverifiable. Nagelfar (talk) 21:49, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "we do not know the list of the di indigetes."