Wikipedia talk:Delegable proxy/Table

message: A notice has been placed on the page, "Proxies listed below are not currently recognized, as Wikipedia:Delegable proxy is neither a policy nor a guideline." Given that the proxy system would not necessarily bind admins to a certain decision, but could simply provide them with more information (see Wikipedia talk:Delegable proxy/Abd's message), I am amending that notice. One definition of "recognize" is to "be fully aware or cognizant of." In certain discussions, an admin might find it helpful to notice that a participant is a proxy trusted by many established users (which could be suggested by those users being proxies themselves). Sarsaparilla (talk) 19:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The notice should also let users know that their nomination of a proxy is giving that proxy consent to communicate directly with them, and that acceptance of a proxy is consent to communicate in the other direction. (I would not personally accept a proxy from a user who did not give me, at least, a direct email address, and I definitely would not give a proxy to any user who didn't give me a way to contact the user directly -- i.e., by email or phone.) This is, in fact, a restraint on mass acceptance of proxies from real users. No restraint on accepting sock puppets, which is fine. If a user knowingly accepts proxies from sock puppets, there would be no specific reaction, except we'd now have a prime suspect for puppet master. It would certainly make SSP and Checkuser easier to file! -- and harmless to the innocent. This aspect of direct communication can make high-depth proxy networks very rapid response. On the other hand, nobody should be obligated to follow my personal practice. The relationship of proxy and client is direct, voluntary, and uncoerced. (If it's coerced, we'd want to know about it!) --Abd (talk) 22:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I respect your personal preference, but do we really want to stress the aspect of off-wiki communication? The fact that emails/phone conversations are hidden from public scrutiny and generally inadmissible as evidence in Wikipedia proceedings could make some leery about the motivations for it. Wasn't a perceived failure to be "open and transparent to all editors at all times" one of the reasons cited for shutting down Wikipedia:Esperanza? Ron Duvall (talk) 22:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it's not necessary. I'd say that consent to communicate is sufficiently implied, and there is no need to underscore off-wiki communication, it is probably not necessary. Any user or proxy who wants that to be available can make it happen; but for me, the point is that this is an actual and small-scale connection. Jimbo Wales as my proxy isn't going to work, unless he's got the time, which I doubt. If I wanted to name him, he could have a system set up where he recommends some client in his proxy hierarchy, someone he trusts sufficiently for that, and someone who has time to respond to my ranting and raving. Or not, as the case may be. TANSTAAFL.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abd (talk • contribs) 00:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notice

message: I was able to highlight the whole table and copy and paste it into a spreadsheet (OpenOffice). I'm not talking about copying and pasting the table's wiki markup which you see by clicking "edit this page," but the actual table. Was that what you tried, Abd? By "field separators," do you mean delimiters such as commas? After you copy and paste the table into a spreadsheet, you can then export to CSV or whatever other format you want; but what you have already on the screen at that point is the table with all its rows, columns, etc. as they should be. Ron Duvall (talk) 23:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Copying it into a spreadsheet

message: Here's what I see happening, if we were to automate it:
#User goes to a page which gives him the option to enter the name of a proxy or no proxy at all. (That would be treated as a revocation.) User enters name of proxy.
#A userspace subpage, e.g. User:Abd/Proxy, is generated with two template fields: User=Abd; Proxy=Jimbo Wales.
#The proxy accepts by adding to User:Abd/Proxy the following field: Acceptance=Yes.
#Our DiffBot™, using "What links here" from the Template, finds the newly accepted proxy and adds four more fields: UserDate=____ __, ____ __:__ __M, AcceptanceDate=____ __, ____ __:__M, UserDiff=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=... and AcceptanceDiff=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...
#A bot then adds the line, e.g. , to the table.
Procedures would also exist for handling revocations, detecting unauthorized changes, etc. but you get the gist. I'm not sure if #1 is possible but I've been trying to figure out if we can automate at least some of the field fill-ins using something like . If we can get the CURRENTUSER thing to work, then the documentation should be able to give users some text that they can copy, and then click on a link which will start the new page User:Abd/Proxy, and then they can just paste it in and hit "Save page" with no other editing needed except for Proxy=Jimbo Wales. (See, for instance, Help:Magic words, Help:Variable, and http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:Variables ). The other cool thing about transcluded pages, by the way, is that everyone can watchlist their own proxy page, so it's easily verifiable by every user that at least their own entry is OK. The proxy can also watch it, and easily see if the user changes anything in the notes, for instances, or makes a comment on the proxy talk page.
I think substitution may be very useful in helping people easily appoint a proxy. Ron Duvall (talk) 00:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bots

message: OK, so we're getting closer to having a fast, easy method of adding proxies to your userspace in a way that any newbie can figure out. We should be able to add the diff in the same edit as the template is added. I'm having trouble automating the diff, though, because of a REVISIONID issue. See Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#Using_subst_with_REVISIONID. Of course, creating a fast, easy method of proxy acceptance that doesn't require bot intervention is a whole separate project. But presumably most proxies will be relatively sophisticated users. Nonetheless, I want to make this easy for everyone.
As the table instructions note, all you have to do right now to add your proxy is go to your user subpage, e.g. User:Abd/Proxy, enter this line, and Save page:
 
Then this line will need to be added to the proxy table:
 
At that point, you're good to go. It should add the diff for you and everything. The only problem here is that REVISIONID issue above, which is causing the diff to not work properly. Ron Duvall (talk) 05:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Subst, cont'd

message: I added Abd/Proxy, and I think I followed instructions.
I put the new line before the closing code. I hope that's correct! A newbie might put it at the end, at the top, or just about anywhere unless it is crystal clear.
It's not working right, as you can see in the table.
--Abd (talk) 04:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it didn't like the italics. I fixed it. By the way, should there be a link to the actual proxy page (e.g. User:Abd/Proxy) or just a link to the user page, as it is now? Ron Duvall (talk) 05:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's see how many ways I can do it wrong. 

message: (snip)
I'm not convinced that the proxy table, as it is, is simple enough. We should play with it a bit. The timestamps aren't right, they actually should show date and time, not a time code. And the diffs don't work.
I'll look at the project page and see what I can do to make it more general. I already did some of this yesterday. I do sense that the first applications to have any effect would be with Article proxies and associated special proxy tables, not necessarily the general proxies that are on the Proxy table page. Article proxies are create formal networks that connect a larger interested community, not necessarily currently active, with the smaller group that may be active on an article at one time. As shown in the little drama above, article proxies don't create special opportunities for meat puppets; indeed attempts to call in one's clients to out-revert an opposing caucus could backfire. However, bringing in more eyes is always helpful. But I certainly don't know the specifics about how it will play out. The reason why I think article proxies might be more important in the short term is that it only takes a small group of editors to make it work.
:The diffs don't work because of the REVISIONID issue noted here. The timestamps right now are formatted with the units going in descending order from years to seconds. E.g., 20080219041435 is 2008-02-19 04:14:35. That's a useful format if you want to mathematically compare two timestamps for recency, but not very pleasing to the human eye. We can change it to some other format, or have it appear in some other format, with the assistance of m:Help:ParserFunctions or perhaps Help:Variables. I'll probably get on that a bit later... What format exactly should we use... Ron Duvall (talk) 02:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Copied over from Abd's talk page

message: Looks to me like I need to edit the proxy file for the user naming me to accept a proxy. That's actually good, because users will see edits to this file, which they created or edited, by default. Again, the edit should be really simple. It could be like the initial proxy assignment, i.e., the date is automatically added. The diffs would be nice, but I'm not sure they are necessary. What might substitute for filling in those diffs is a link to the revision history of the user proxy file.
Having to add timestamps manually? No. Not good.
--Abd (talk) 03:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've set it so that you can use the  template. Try it out. The timestamp is automated, but of course not the diff yet. The diff is preferable if we can figure out a workaround to that REVISIONID issue (there might be another way to do it) but if not, we can just link to the revision history. Ron Duvall (talk) 04:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Revision history should be adequate for now. Latest revisions should show the necessary editor identify confirmation, date, etc. I'll try the accept template. I think the instructions should be a little more explicit.... --Abd (talk) 04:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Cool! How did you get those instructions to be there, then disappear? (If that is standard, then the Acceptance instructions on the Table page don't need to give the instructions as to what to insert ... or is that the source?)--Abd (talk) 04:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  How do I accept a proxy? 

message: The proxy table was edited to show an opinion that this was only a demonstration of what a proxy table might look like. Actually, in my view, it's a real proxy table. The proxies shown in it are real. As noted, they aren't binding in any way. There may be, however, many copies of the table, though there should be a central one where users do add the link to their proxy file. But given that the proxy designation is in the proxy file, not in the table, anyone can add a link, if it is done in good faith and without misrepresentation.
Currently, the table shows a proxy loop, the smallest possible. That is normal at this stage, i.e., to be expected. As more users decide to participate, other patterns will appear, and, I'm pretty sure, the particular loop that is shown will open up and change. Besides, if the pizza doesn't show up soon, I might revoke my proxy.
One immediate use that is possible. Want to get a message to someone listed, fast, even if they don't log in and check messages? Find anyone in a proxy loop or chain below the one you want to contact, and ask the person to contact the user directly. if they can. I don't and probably won't give or accept proxies where I'm not provided with a phone number. If a significant number of others also follow this practice, new applications become obvious.
I changed the text in on the Table page to reflect this understanding: this isn't merely an example what a proxy table might look like, it is an example of what one does look like.--Abd (talk) 21:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Actual proxy table, not merely demonstration of possible one

message: see this:
This should work wherever the Proxy Table sits, special proxy tables can be created using the same format (and the same proxy file references unless a user designates a special proxy in one). Subst can be used to create some of the fields, in particular the History link. Most user proxy files won't see a lot of edits, and, in any case, the diff wanted would usually be the latest or the one before that. What do you think? --Abd (talk) 04:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  No-template version of proxy files and Table 

message: Rather than use a timestamp as a verifying check, would using the edit oldid maybe make it easier to differentiate? MBisanz talk 05:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can figure out a way to implement it, go for it... Absidy (talk) 07:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Timestamp