Talk:Bagrationi dynasty

message: i Soso, I'm going to expand this article section by section and I'll need your assistance. Thanks, Kober 09:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: old comments

message: Dear Kober
What a great article! This article is an inpiration for everybody who wants to write an un-biased, completely neutral articles on the complicated matters like the Bagrationi Dynasty. I especially like the usage of the sources and the citations. Thanks Kober. Sosomk 15:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks a lot, Soso. The article is far from complete however. We need to add more info about modern-day Bagrationis. Kober 17:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are welcome to change check my genealogy of this family at http://genealogy.euweb.cz/georgia/index.html. It contains enough data about living members. The articles about Princess Tatiana Konstantinovna of Russia and Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya may also give you some hints. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your links, but I don’t clearly understand what you mean by "changing your genealogy of this family". Kober 18:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Too hasty editing on my part, I guess. --Ghirla -трёп- 05:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Welcome back Soso, nice to hear from you again. It would be really great if you can get some extra info. You may also wish to leave a comment on Portal talk:Georgia (country). It finally works now. Thanks, Kober 12:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources and Citations

message: According to GlobalSecurity.org, Bagrationi is pronounced as bah-grah-tyi-YAHN-ee. Can anyone check if the IPA key is correct? Thanks, --Kober 07:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA 

message: I tagged this article as having a POV problem because of the occasional peacock language, and because of the monarchist/legitimist bias visible throughout the modern portions of the article. --Orange Mike  |  Talk 19:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the problematic passage, but I don't really see any monarchist/legitimist bias in the article.--KoberTalk 20:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: The Royal Line of Kings and True Successors of the Kingdom of Georgia 
A time line from the last King Giorgi XII down to Prince Nugzar:
*1800:  (a) King Giorgi XII is dies 1801(he is the last king of Georgia and direct ancestor of HRH Prince Nugzar 
**(b) Georgia annexed by Imperial Russia 
*1803: Imperial Russia exiles from Georgia to Russia all the representatives of HRH Nugzar's direct salic ancestors (the Royal family) 
*1804-1812:  Imperial Russia adopted a decision that only Georgia's King`s sons and daughters preserve the titles of "Georgian princes and princesses" (Gruzinski) (Gruzinsky - from russian literally "of Georgia"  - Dynastic Princely title) 
*1833:  Imperial Russia adopted the second decision, the grandsons of King Erekle II and King Giorgi XII were granted a title of "Georgian prince" --- Gruzinski, which became their surname . 
*1865: Russian Emperor Alexander II granted all the representatives of this Royal branch of the Bagrationis (Prince Nugzar's ancestors) the title of "the Most Respectful." Prince  Nugzar's family were considered along with other royal families, and some very prominent high nobles in Russia, to be one step below the prestige of the Imperial House of the whole Empire. 
*1917: Russian Empire was abolished. HRH Nugzar's ancestors still retained their titles. None of them renounced their Royal rights or prerogatives! 
*1921: Georgia annexed by Soviet Russia. HRH Nugzar`s ancestor Peter (I) still used his title of "the Most Respectful Prince Gruzinski." Same with Peter (II), he was even jailed by communists in 1944-1951, but he never renounced his Royal rights.'''
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Klarjelly (talk • contribs) 16:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: NPOV is a policy, not a person. —A link for the reader's convenience: Line of succession to the former Georgian throne. —Tamfang (talk) 18:31, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  If you are interested in truth about Bagrationi Dynasty please read this 

message: To NPOV, Please check and view the article: "The line of succession to the Georgian throne". There the children of Pss. Anna (from the first marriage) are presented like not a carriers of the Royal surname.  We must declare that the children of Princess Anna are considered as legal heirs by the head of the Royal House of Georgia and to question - whether do they carry the Royal surname? Of course they do by old historical royal tradition of Georgia. We can even send official document proving our statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varaz (talk • contribs) 11:43, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: NPOV is a policy, not a person. —A link for the reader's convenience: Line of succession to the former Georgian throne. —Tamfang (talk) 18:31, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  As for the surname of Pss.Anna`s children 

message: Unfortunately, since the joyful announcement on the official webpage of the birth to Prince David and Princess Anna of a son, Prince Giorgi Bagration, at the end of September 2011, no corroboration or further news about the child has been forthcoming. While I remain hopeful that all is well and that the announcement was accurate and did, indeed, come from the chancery of the royal couple, the complete absence of further information or communication since then begins to raise concerns and, dismayingly, doubts. Until the announcement of the birth, most (although not all) of the hearsay about the newlyweds had been unencouraging. As can be seen on this talk page and on other Bagrationi-related sites, the rivalry between supporters of different branches of the dynasty inexplicably persists, despite the fact that the family itself took the rare and unselfish step of reviving a venerable tradition, royal intermarriage, to resolve the family's internal conflicts so as to be able to offer full and undivided loyalty to Georgia, should the nation see fit to call upon its ancient dynasty for modern political or cultural service. Meanwhile, in the virtual absence of reliable media coverage in English it was widely rumored in blogs, online forums and even some reputable media that the couple separated very soon after the nuptials, and that efforts at reconciliation were not looking auspicious (I did find a passing mention of the couple, seen "honeymooning" in South America two years ago, in a popular Spanish-language magazine and, relieved, I hastened to incorporate reference to it in the David Bagration of Mukhrani article (which saves this post, btw, from being a BLP violation -- I only allude here to what has been elsewhere published (including in Wikipedia articles, with sources) and was, I hope -- in light of the recent happy addition to the family -- either altogether false or has since proved remediable) Then, suddenly, with no prior notification of their having undertaken recent public engagements together or even of her confinement, the press statement appeared on Prince David's website that his consort had been safely delivered of a healthy prince. The news was most welcome and, perhaps unjustifiably, raised expectations for more tidings. Nevermind that it seemed surprising that the birthplace was Madrid, former home of Prince David, rather than Tbilisi or elsewhere in Georgia; nevermind that no photographs of the couple with their son, or of either parent with the child, or of the couple together or of the baby have been released or uploaded to any of the pro-Bagrationi websites; nevermind that no announcement has been forthcoming of plans for a christening ceremony with godparents, of re-patriation of the family to Georgia from Spain, or of a visit to the child by Prince Nugzar Bagration-Gruzinsky and his consort, presumably the proud maternal grandparents. Never mind any and all of that. What raises concern at this point is the fact that not a single independent mention of mother or child can be found in English on the Internet since the birth announcement! Fortunately, photographs do exist showing that Prince David is alive and well, having participated recently in a public event with an Orthodox Church hierarch and members of one of the Georgian orders of chivalry. It is to be hoped that the family are happily busy being a family, privately enjoying their time together away from the limelight, and taking a well-deserved hiatus from the public sphere. They are entitled to that time and have every right to complete privacy. But those who are concerned about them, who cheered the marital union of the two main branches of the Georgian dynasty, and rejoiced that the union has been blessed with a son and heir, are beginning to feel alarmed at the prolonged silence of a family which remains the object of so many hopes and good intentions, inside and outside Georgia. I post this here on the assumption that all three members of the immediate Georgian Royal Family are thriving, but with the respectful request that Prince David and Princess Anna will soon offer some positive sign of their individual and collective well-being or, in the event of adversity, of hope for improvement of whatever kind may be appropriate. Otherwise, I fear that a silence prolonged much longer will once again give rise to both concerns and rumors that all is not well with some or all members of the Mukhrani-Gruzinsky household. If members of the Royal Chancery monitor this site, I implore that, without intruding upon the voluntary seclusion of the young family, the respectful concern of members of the public might be worth conveying and allaying, if and when they and their advisors deem the time to be right, and in such manner as may be convenient for them (perhaps those able to read Georgian are less in the dark?). If, meanwhile, anyone else can update this or other Bagrationi dynasty articles with reliably sourced, appropriately noteworthy news of the family members, I assure you I will not be the only one who will be grateful and relieved. Thank you for your attention and I apologize in advance for arousing any undue alarm or burdening Their Royal Highnesses in any way. FactStraight (talk) 21:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worrying silence 

message: Recently I removed a small portion of a large amount of changes to the text which made inadequately sourced or excessive assertions, and those edits have been reversed allegeing that I had "vandalised" the article. Removing unsourced allegations and peacock language from articles isn't vandalism. Such comments as: "Bagrationi...is the oldest Christian and one of the oldest royal dynasties in the world" must be supported by a footnote to a RS. Likewise "Here are the following dynasties and houses of the world the Bagrationis have had the royal intermarriages with...:" Some of the new edits were simply bowdlerized errors stolen from other sources, such as: "George offered to incorporate the kingdom of Kartli and Kakheti into the Russian Empire, while preserving its native dynasty and a degree of internal autonomy — essentially, mediatisation." And lengthy digressions are distractions from the article, such as: "The illustrious dynasty of the Bagrationi originated in the most ancient Georgian district – Speri (today İspir).[Footnote begins] Centered on the modern-day district of İspir, northeastern Turkey, this province is sometimes thought to have been the cradle of the Georgian people (Suny [1994], p. 11). It lay in what is frequently referred to as the Armeno-Georgian marchlands where the two communities coexisted and intermingled for several centuries, but the Georgian Speri and the Armenian Sper may not always be absolutely identical (cf. Tao and Tayk, Rapp [2003], p. 14.)". Finally, I corrected a few of the formatting errors: section heads are supposed to be short and only the first word is normally capitalised. We no longer include a list of translations of the article title into dozens of language at the bottom of articles any more. So I did not make indiscriminate edits to the article, but tried to trim it where the language was unsupported or excessive -- and I made no edits for grammar at all, although many are needed. FactStraight (talk) 00:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You also deleted the royal intermarriages info which who the Bagrationis wed historically. This is important information in the article and why would you remove that? As for the oldest Christian dynasty it really is so. GeorgianJorjadze 12:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: These allegations must be sourced and you keep re-inserting them without adding reliable sources which can be independently verified. There is a real dispute about how old the Bagrationi dynasty is (particularly relative to the Capet patriline and the Irish kings), so anything about it must have appropriate footnotes. Virtually every dynasty engages in marriages with other dynasties; that fact isn't particularly notable here because it is covered in the articles on individual kings and princesses. But notable or not, it must be properly footnoted or it can't stay in the article. FactStraight (talk) 14:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undersourcing and over-stating 

message: Please bother yourself and see David of Mukhrani's descent. He never was and is not a "royal" so please first see his linage before you add him in a place which does not belong to him and never was. The only recognized head of all Bagrations is Nugzar Bagration-Gruzinsky and is not and never was disputed his place there. Jaqeli (talk) 11:28, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What does this prove? The Gruzinsky claim comes from being descendants of George XIII while the Mukhrani claims their right because they are the eldest heir males of Alexander I of Georgia (both lines' shared ancestor) and thus the entire Bagrationi dynasty. Also they are related to the elder Mukhrani line which ruled as Kings of Kartli until Vakhtang VI of Kartli was exiled to Russia. Either way these are both claims with supporters and it is neither my nor your place to choose a side. Have you heard of the Legitimists and Orleanists situation in France? Throughout your edit the bias and POV is obvious. You cannot edit to promote the claim of one line and remove or erase the claim of another line.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 17:10, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What does this prove? Can not you see the differences? Mukhranians were never royals. Do you know that there are tones of direct descendants of Bagration-Davitishvilis in Georgia? But it does not give them the right to claim the Georgian throne or claim their headship of the dynasty. Bagration-Davitishvilis also descend directly from Alexander I of Kakheti but none of them claim the Georgian throne because it never belonged to them and they were never royals just like Mukhranians. Mukhranian Bagrations were always a princes not a royals and putting him with the direct royal descendant like Nugzar is laughable and unacceptable in every way. So before you add him back read a bit about the subject to call them royals. Having a "Bagration" in the family name does not mean you are or were royal. Jaqeli (talk) 18:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop editing the article against consensus. You continue to justify biasing articles on the Bagrationis by arguing your own personal interpretation of the Gruzinskys' status relative to that of the Mukhraneli. That is not a legitimate basis for editing Wikipedia articles: we must reflect what the reliable sources show. Even discounting the websites of both the heads of the Gruzinsky and Mukhraneli branches, the journalism and literature indicate that each branch has supporters for its claims to re-enthronement based upon differing historical and genealogical interpretations. You are entitled to your personal preference -- but Wikipedia is not. Please desist. FactStraight (talk) 21:06, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please present the source that he is royal. Until you do not present such source he cannot stay in the bar as the "head" of the Bagrations. I've presented the source which is supported by 6 PhDs and Professors and the Metropolitan and the member of the Georgian Orthodox Church's Holy Synod. Now present yours if there is any as I know no one who supports such person who calls himself a "royal" when in reality he's low level Tavadi. Jaqeli (talk) 09:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: David Bagrationi-Mukhraneli's dynasticity is explicitly acknowledged already in the article with footnoes and in other reliable sources. For example, this excerpt from the highly-respected news service AFP published on 8Feb2009: "A prince and a princess from Georgia's ancient Bagrationi dynasty were wed in a lavish ceremony here Sunday, bringing together two feuding strands of the royal house that once ruled this Caucasus nation...Her father, Nugzar Bagrationi-Gruzinsky, said the wedding marked an historic day for his country. 'The most important thing is that this day will be beneficial for Georgia's future,' he said...'This is a double holiday as we are celebrating both King David's day and the wedding of representatives of our royal Bagrationi dynasty that was abolished by Russia,' one of the guests, opposition Conservative party co-leader Zviad Dzidziguri, told journalists before the ceremony...Various branches of the family have laid claim to the Georgian throne, with the Mukhraneli and Gruzinsky branches considered the most likely contenders. David Bagrationi-Mukhraneli is the son of Jorge de Bagration y de Mukhrani, a prominent racing driver whose branch of the family settled in Spain after World War II. A cousin of Spain's King Juan Carlos, the father died in 2008 after settling in Tbilisi. The two houses have long feuded over their claims to the throne and historians say any children from the marriage would resolve the dispute." Even before the prospect of marriage between David Mukhraneli and Ana Gruzinsky arose, David was publicly acknowledged as a major contender for the Georgian throne (if restored), by respected journalist Gerald Warner in The Telegraph 8Aug2008: "The acknowledged head of the royal house, the de jure King George XIV, died earlier this year; but his 32-year-old son Prince Davit could be called to the throne of his ancestors as David XIII. This could be the holistic reinvention of itself this unfortunate nation needs." (This Warner quote was deliberately adulterated on a royalty website a few years ago when David's name was deleted and Nugzar's was substituted by someone whose anti-David arguments are almost identical to those now being posted on Wikipedia's Bagrationi talk pages. I exposed the fraud here). Also, see this article's footnote #40 (at present) from The Georgia Times 2Aug2009: "Two members of the two royal dynasties of Georgia: 32-year old David Bagrationi-Mukhraneli and Anna Bagrationi- Gruzinskaya, got married yesterday in Tbilisi...David Bagrationi- Mukhraneli was born and grown up in Spain. In mid 20th century Irakli, his grandfather, was officially recognized as a legal throne aspirant by the emigrant organizations. After Irakli's death his son Georgi became his heir. Georgi has three adult sons and a daughter, and all of them, except David, still live in Spain..." In Wikipedia's article on David, footnote #6 from ABC.es.com, 9Sep2008: "Prince Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili (b. Madrid, 1976)...The sole heir to the throne of Georgia who lives in the country...President Mikhail Saakhasvili returned their nationality and recognized them as the legitimate royal family." In David's footnote #7 from El Confidencial 8Feb2009: "His Royal Highness David de Bagration y de Mujrani, hereditary prince of Georgia and Spanish citizen, was married today with Anna Mujraneli, representative of another branch of the imperial family of Bagration (Gruzinski)." Clearly there are plenty of sources which meet Wikipedia's standards for reliability that document David Mukhraneli's status as a royal claimant to the Georgian throne. FactStraight (talk) 11:16, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

text: In specific response to your initial inquiry, I enumerated five different sources which document that David Bagrationi is regarded as a prominent contender in the event of restoration of the Georgian monarchy. Three of the five citations include unambiguous English language quotations. Each source I provided was  online, verifiable, not affiliated with one side or the other in the royal rivalry and is a reliable source. The latter qualification is the decisive one for English Wikipedia. You have dismissed all of them as irrelevant, unqualified and "laughable", furthermore asserting -- without documentation -- that "No one, NO ONE supports self-proclaimed David of Mukhrani. And all Georgian Bagrations, agaian I repeat ALL GEORGIAN BAGRATIONS recognize Prince Nugzar as the head of all 3 Georgian branches" (which is inaccurate on its face). Next, you demand that I produce new documentation to "prove" the legitimacy of the Mukhraneli claim according to your -- not Wikipedia's -- criteria, as if it were Wikipedia's function to evaluate scholarship in order to "decide" which pretender has the more "legitimate" claim. Finally, you substantiate your own allegations by reference to the website of advocates for the rival of the head of the Bagrationi Mukhraneli! I have nothing more to say other than to suggest that you review Wikipedia's policies on verifiability and neutral point of view. FactStraight (talk) 03:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current head of the Bagrations 

message: Shouldn't more emphasis be put on that the family is of Armenian lineage? It seems that the most credible source of its origins is that the family is descended from Ashot III of Armenia and the older Bagratuni Dynasty and branched out to Georgia. In this case more ephsis should be put on that it was an Armenian family that ruled over Georgia, such as the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty ruling over Egypt or the German Windsor dynasty ruling of the UK. As it is this article seems to promote the family being of Georgian descent. All of the monarchs should be classified as Georgian Armenians as well. --HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 17:55, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: They were assimilated into the Georgian nation within a generation, so their roots are Armenian but they are not. Just like the current Queen of England isn't German.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:41, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Dynasties cannot "assimilate" their origins. --HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 17:29, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't say anything about their origins.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 09:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. Well, House of Glücksburg has German origins and is called a German House even though it has had kings in four countries not including Germany. --HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 19:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a poor example, they have been around for two centuries not eleven and they consider themselves German. The Armenian branch died out a thousand years ago while the Georgian house is around to this day. No Bagrationi has ever thought of themselves as anything but Georgian.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 06:11, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

text: House of Windsor is a comparable example from modern times.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 06:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Eupator makes a very good point here. The dynasty was quickly acculturated. As for the suggestion to classify "all of the monarchs" as "Armenian Georgian", this is simply ridiculous. How can one describe, say, Erekle II or Solomon II as Armenian? Do the 7th/8th-century roots make Armenian all subsequent generations, including those that flourished a thousand years after their ancestors' assimilation? --KoberTalk 15:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian dynasty 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Greetings dear colleagues! The article is messy with low quality sources and bulky within the titles and started to revamp and cleaning up a bit. I appreciate all of your feedback and cooperation. Regards, An emperor /// Ave 03:05, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup & revamp 

message: The article states " from the Middle Ages until the early 19th century, " as the dates of the dynasty. Shouldn't this be something like "  from the 14th century until the early 19th century, ". This would clarify the actual length of the dynasty. VernonF (talk) 22:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date range 

message: The "Origin" section in the article at first presents the different views on the origin of the Bagrationi dynasty, then comes to the conclusion that "the assertion of Bagratoinis' Armenian origin is widely neglected", without a citation. If the Bagrationis' potential Armenian origin is now disregarded by scholars (I assume this is what is meant by "neglected"), this needs to be sourced. The preceding reference to Faustus of Byzantium is also dubious, considering Faustus was explicitly referring to the Bagratids of the Kingdom of Armenia, so it is strange that this is used as evidence of the Bagrationis non-Armenian origin. Revolution Saga (talk) 20:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin section 

message: I'd like a source for this.  
"The 5th-century Armenian historian Pavstos Buzand claimed that the Georgian Bagrationi family was originated in Speri province which was populated by Georgian Laz tribes.[citation needed] The same idea was shared by many historians like Nikolai Marr, Joseph Orbeli, Ekvtime Takaishvili, Simon Janashia, and the assertion of Bagratoinis' Armenian origin is widely neglected.[citation needed]"
The wikipedia page that make these outsourced claims questionable
"The family's origin is disputed, but the view formulated by the historians such as Ekvtime Takaishvili and Cyril Toumanoff that the Georgian dynasty descended from a refuge prince of the Armenian house of Bagratuni prevails."
Source listed:  Taqaishvili 1935, pp. 23–25.
Source: Taqaishvili, Ekvtime (1935). "Georgian chronology and the beginning of the Bagratid rule in Georgia". Georgica. 1: 9–27.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_the_biblical_descent_of_the_Bagrationi_dynasty#CITEREFTaqaishvili193
5
The same page in the Georgian language translated into english
"The legend of the origin of the Bagrations from the Jewish or Davidic line is not trusted by modern scientists. The origins of the family are disputed, but the prevailing view, advanced by historians such as Ekvtime Takaishvili and Kirill Tumanov, is that the Georgian dynasty originated from an exiled prince of the Armenian house of Bagratuni.[4][5]"
https://ka.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%83%91%E1%83%90%E1%83%92%E1%83%A0%E1%83%90%E1%83%A2%E1%83%98%E1%83%9D%E1%83%9C%E1%83%97%E1%83%90_%E1%83%93%E1%83%98%E1%83%9C%E1%83%90%E1%83%A1%E1%83%A2%E1%83%98%E1%83%98%E1%83%A1_%E1%83%91%E1%83%98%E1%83%91%E1%83%9A%E1%83%98%E1%83%A3%E1%83%A0%E1%83%98_%E1%83%AC%E1%83%90%E1%83%A0%E1%83%9B%E1%83%9D%E1%83%9B%E1%83%90%E1%83%95%E1%83%9A%E1%83%9D%E1%83%91%E1%83%98%E1%83%A1_%E1%83%9B%E1%83%A2%E1%83%99%E1%83%98%E1%83%AA%E1%83%94%E1%83%91%E1%83%A3%E1%83%9A%E1%83%94%E1%83%91%E1%83%90 Abashidzestuff (talk) 19:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ekvtime Takaishvili being mentioned in an unsourced claim