Talk:Adullam

message: Merge with Cave of Adullam? --Sreifa (talk) 10:33, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: Can we add a section on the oil shale?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.188.248.67 (talk) 09:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oil Shale 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There are ample books available in libraries on the concurring view of nearly all historical geographies and archaeologists, besides cartographers, that `Eid el-Miah (alias Ḫirbet eš-Šēḫ Madkūr) is to be identified as the biblical Adullam. You may wish to see the German study on this subject, published online here, and where they write (translated into English): 
:"The largely accepted localization of the place on Ḫirbet eš-Šēḫ Madkūr corresponds to the Old Testament information on Adullam's locality, as the place is located about 5 km southeast of Socho, and thus recognizable east of the line on which, from south to north, Maresha, Libna , Socho and Jarmut are lining up. Surface finds on Ḫirbet eš-Šēḫ Madkūr indicate a settlement in the Iron Age II. The equation with Adullam is supported by the Ḫirbet eš-Šēḫ Madkūr adjacent ruin site Ḫirbet 'Īd el-Mā` (1504.1180), where the Old Testament name form has been preserved."
C.R. Conder has, likewise, written about Adullam in the PEF Quarterly statement of 1875, p. 145, where we find the following: 
:"The site of Adullam — perhaps primary interest in our work from this camp is that of the royal city of Adullam, with the cave or 'hold' so famous in the history of David, in the identification of which I am happy to say our work entirely confirms the previous discovery due to M. Ganneau. The traditional site of Adullam is east of Bethlehem in Wady Khŭreitûn— an extraordinary cavern with long winding passages. The general identification of later times has, however, been with Deir Dubban, 'The Convent of Flies', apparently because no name which approached more closely in the district in which Adullam was known to lie could be found, and because a cavern similar to those just described, is here to be found on the west side of the village. In a report from Beit 'Atab (Quarterly Statement, January, 1875, p. 19) I described the cavern of Umm el Tuweimin under the impression that this was the spot M. Ganneau had supposed identical with Adullam, but this mistake he afterwards pointed out to me and gave me indications of the whereabouts of the true site. 
:There is no reason to suppose that the cave of Adullam was a site separate from the royal city of that name. Josephus says that David, escaping from Gath, 'came to the tribe of Judah, and abode in a cave by the city of Adullam" (Ant. vi. 12. 3). Thence he sent to his family in Bethlehem, and here he first collected to him 'every one that was in distress, and every one that was in debt, and every one that was discontented' (1 Sam. xxii. 2). 
:The site of the city itself appears to be very ancient. The patriarch Judah is mentioned as going clown (from the hill country it would seem to the Shephelah) to visit his friend Hirah the Adullamite. It appears in the list of royal cities taken by Joshua (Joshua xii. 15), between Libnah and Makkedah. It is again mentioned (Joshua xv. 35) in the list of fourteen cities of the Shephelah, and its name here appears between those of Jarmuth (Yarmuk) and the northern Socoh (Shuweikeh). That it was a site of natural strength we infer from the expression "the hold," which is used in reference to David's retreat, in or close to it (1 Sam. xxii. 5), and also from its being fortified by Rehoboam (2 Chron. xi. 7), as mentioned in the list of his fortresses, the name occurring between Socoh and Gath. In this list, however, the order of occurrence throughout seems of little value. A further indication of position occurs in the notice in Micah i. 15, where it is named with Achzib and Mareshah. The requisites for the site of Adullam are therefore as follows: 
:1st. That it be in the Shephelah or low hills. 
:2nd. In the neighbourhood of Jarmuth and Socoh. 
:3rd. At no great distance from the district of Mareshah and the northern towns of the Libnah district. 
:4th. Probably between Gath and Bethlehem.
:5th. That it be a strong natural site. 
:6th. That it be an ancient site of importance with rock-cut tombs, good water supply, ancient and main roads and communications from different sides. 
:7th. That it contain one or more habitable caves. 
:8th. That the modern name contain the important letters of the Hebrew, especially the `Ain. The fact that this town whilst in one district is yet mentioned in connection with the northern towns of the district immediately south of it, is in itself a very important indication, and would fix Adullam as towards the south part of the district to which it belongs. 
:The requirements are, it will be seen, fully met in every particular by the site I am about to describe. Upon Murray's new map it will be seen that a great valley separates the Shephelah from the high hills, and runs first north-west, then north, from the watershed near Hebron to the neighbourhood of Socoh or Shuweikeh ; it then turns west and runs near Tell el Safieh, and so into the sea, north of Ashdod. The first part to Socoh is called Wady Sur, afterwards it becomes Wady Sumt, the probable Valley of Elah." (END QUOTE).Davidbena (talk) 01:48, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I discovered this web-page, showing a modern topographical map of cities, towns and villages in Israel, along with the archaeological sites found in the country, the Khirbehs (old ruins), etc. Adullam is listed on the map, in the place where once stood the village `Eid el-Mieh. See here.Davidbena (talk) 21:53, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Amud Anan has been a map option on Wikipedia for years. You can always select it when you click on a coordinates link.  As for this place, I'm not sure what you are looking at exactly. Material printed on the map has a good case for reliability, but the little blue circles and the text they bring up is not usable because it is user-contributed. Anyone can become a member of Amud Anan and add little blue circles of their own. However, from time to time I find information in those pop-ups that can be verified in reliable places. Zerotalk 01:05, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I find the map very helpful, although perhaps difficult for non-Hebrew speakers. The reason for my posting the link is its accessibility. As it clearly shows Adullam (עדולם) where `Eid el-Mieh formerly stood, that was my main intention for sharing the link. Mostly, however, I possess and make use of my own 2006 topographical touring map, published by הוועדה לשבילי ישראל = The Committee for the Paths of Israel, and which shows Adullam (the former `Eid el-Mieh) marked in its place. Today, I scanned the map showing the site of Adullam and will try and post it later. I also scanned a 1958 map which places Adullam in the same location.Davidbena (talk) 01:15, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW: One of Israel's most respected researchers on historical geography, Yoel Elitzur, recently published a book entitled Ancient Place Names in the Holy Land - Preservation and History (pub. Jerusalem / Winona Lake, Indiana (USA) 2004 , where he mentions on p. 137 the site of Adullam being identical with the site Khirbet A'ïd el-Miah. In terms of administrative districts here, in Israel, all of the nearby Israeli kibbutzim and moshavim are denoted as being in Ḥevel Adullam (the Adullam region), a place adjacent to Ḥevel Lachish.Davidbena (talk) 01:53, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a link of my own 2006 topographical Touring Map, showing in the center Adullam: :File:Adullam_in_2006_Israeli_Touring_Map.jpg. (Enlarge image, as needed). The Israeli moshav, Aderet, is seen nearby. A little northwards of the site is the moshav, Neve Michael.Davidbena (talk) 03:16, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The copyright gnomes will delete that soon, but I took a copy.  I have another source (A. F. Rainey, The Biblical Shephelah of Judah, Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 251 (Summer, 1983), pp. 1-22) which identifies Adullam with Kh. esh-Sheikh Madhkur. As you know, that is very close to Khirbet A'ïd el-Miah but not the same as it.  On your map, Khirbet A'ïd el-Miah (also spelt Minya) is the little circle of dots labeled H. Adullam, while Kh. esh-Sheikh Madhkur is marked south of the red urn. So this appears to be a slight disagreement.  If you want to see the surrounds in great detail, go here, click on "+" in the lower middle, select map 15-11, go to location 150/118. It loads very slowly so patience is required. Zerotalk 08:44, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Zero, for the better source. Yes, I'm aware of the fact that Khirbet A'ïd el-Miah and Kh. esh-Sheikh Madhkur are not the same. This is clear in the SWP map of the late 19th-century. The two sites are adjacent to one another; one on the hilltop, the other in the valley. Guérin thought that they were originally one and the same site, which is contestable. I took photographs of both sites. The caves, of course, are on the hilltop, known as Kh. esh-Sheikh Madhkur. I will take a look at the links that you provided. Again, thanks!Davidbena (talk) 22:13, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:   Look here; it is the only detailed excavation of the site as far as I know.  Reading carefully, it appears to say that Khirbat esh-Sheikh Madkur is identified with Adullam, while Kh. ‘Id el-Minya (Kh. ‘Id el-Miya) is just "near".  I think this represents the best of present knowledge. Overall the identification strikes me as one of the weakest (no surviving local names, just a place of the right age matching a very vague ancient description). Zerotalk 00:20, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the evidence suggesting that this site is to be identified with Adullam is the best evidence that we have got of any other site, anywhere, in all of Israel. It meets several key qualifications, such as the distance described by Eusebius, as well as its similarity in name, and as historical geographers (such as Samuel Klein, Michael Avi-Yonah, Yoel Elitzur, Zeev Safrai, Yehuda Dagan, and others) attest that in Arabic nomenclature when preserving the names of ancient biblical sites, often times the names have been corrupted over the years. See Place names of Palestine. The tell was identified as Tel ‘Adullam due to its location in the Judean Shefelah, near Kh. ‘Id el-Minya (Kh. ‘Id el-Miya) and the ceramic finds it yielded (Clermont-Ganneau 1875; Conder and Kitchener 1883:354; Albright 1924; Kallai 1972; Aharoni 1989). Their conclusion is, today, the accepted scholarly conclusion. BTW: The two sites actually touch each other; one is on the hilltop, one is at the bottom of the SAME hill. When David is alleged to have hidden in a cave at that site, it is sufficient, in my opinion, that he hid in a cave closest to the town of Adullam, and which hill belonged to the same town.Davidbena (talk) 00:41, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Moreover, it is plain that they (those whose report appears in the detailed IAA overview of the site) have adopted the view of Victor Guérin, who held the two places to be one and the same site.Davidbena (talk) 01:44, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern-day sources 

message: User:Huldra, Hi. I hope that all is well with you. If you will be so kind as to give me the coordinates of Khirbet 'Aid al-Mia, I'll put this information in an Infobox and map. It just now occurred to me that all this information is missing in this article. Kh. 'Aid el-Ma appears in the top left corner of SWP map number 21, shown here. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 18:40, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Davidbena I get palgrid= 148/118, 31°39′40″N 34°58′40″E, approximately, (And we still need to collect the sources for that Tuqu cave.....) cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:53, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Huldra. Once we have collected the sources, we can add a separate sub-section on alternative views.Davidbena (talk) 21:10, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding Infobox with map and coordinates 

message: Firstly, presently we have in the article  a ref to:
*
..I don't know what the ref to 75 means, as that article goes from pages 279 to 319, ie correct ref is:
*
Secondly, there is no ref to A'ïd el-Miah () in Toledano, but there is a ref to "'Id al-Miya", on page 303.  Location  is given as   34°59′45″E 31°39′20″N.
Thirdly, regarding: "The number of fiscal unit in the daftar, corresponding to the map, is "P-17"":
: the letters in Hütteroth and Abdulfattah refers to who got the revenue, where P refers to padisah (and "M" for mir liwa, and "Z" for zama and timar groups, see Hütteroth and Abdulfattah, p. 20) Ie, AFAIK, the revenue of this place went straight to the Sultan. Huldra (talk) 23:57, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, Huldra. I just now came across this video. Have you seen it? David Flees to the Cave of Adullam. Hopefully, I'll be adding more photossoon. Still haven't forgotten your request. When I'm in Jerusalem's Old City, I'll make an effort to photograph your requested site.Davidbena (talk) 01:05, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Toledano 

message: Please see the tag at archaeol sites section. A nonsensical sentence must be revisited, problems pointed out in the tag. Thank you. Arminden (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: -Davidbena (talk) 13:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Clarify" tag 

message: Why this massive use of the "foreign language" template producing Italics for Arabic names, not common in archaeology articles as far as I'm aware? Until recently I didn't even know such a template exists, is it new? Maybe it is prescribed or recommended and I didn't know.
Also, if indeed indicated: what advantage does it offer over the simpler & shorter way of creating Italics, the double apostrophes?
Thank you. Arminden (talk) 11:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Foreign language" template for Arabic toponyms