Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2007

message: Please go to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision#Dealing with criticism and controversy for some discussion about this issue. Camaron ·  Christopher · talk 09:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The banner about neutrality in the "controversy" section has been replaced with the comment that it must stay until "issues are resolved".  However, there doesn't seem to be anywhere that the banner links to, even indirectly, where the reasons for the banner's being there are given.  Certainly there hasn't been any discussion about this on this page or the general Eurovision page for a very long time, and there is no indication of how it might be resolved.  I certainly haven't seen any good arguments for why the banner needs to be there.  May we have an explanation and a description of how it might be resolved? 92.21.143.70 (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have explained previously in detail at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision/Archive 5#Dealing with criticism and controversy. This was only the tip of the iceberg though with the problems with the section in this particular article. Large amounts amounts of this section were unsourced, and a lot of it was original research, written in a style that was not appropriate for encyclopedia, with weasel language among other issues. While some sources were given, by the time I removed the problematic content there was hardly anything left. As a result, I would say it would just be better to re-write a section from scratch, and title it something along the lines of "Criticism of the voting system". CT Cooper · talk 15:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dealing with criticism and controversy 

message: The semi final scoreboard does not show who Spain gave 3 points to (Georgia)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.17.38 (talk) 20:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in table 

message: Where did the  controversy section go? There was one here before.
Even whilst all the finalists from the semifinal were drawn, there was intense booing in the hall.
Was it removed? Why? It directly caused the changing of the semifinals for next year. - Jetro (talk) 01:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A large amount of the content in that section was inappropriate as explained in the section above, and while there was some limited good content in there, miscellaneous sections in order to place everything negative about the article topic (i.e. "criticism" and "controversy" sections) are discouraged by many editors, and I don't think they are necessary in Eurovision articles. There are some controversy sections in other Eurovision articles, but this one was particularly bad, and I concluded that the best way forward was to re-write the section from scratch. If there is a particular issue that caused controversy, that should have its own section elsewhere. For example, if the voting system was controversial, then that should go in a general section on the voting system which explains briefly what the voting system is and gives a fair balance of sources for both sides of the debate. Some of the content of that former section can be re-used, though the overall tone needs to be more encyclopaedic and more in-line with policies and guidelines. I raised concerns about this section years ago, and have given lots of time for those who wrote the section to deal with concerns per WP:BURDEN, but nothing has happened. I could re-write the section myself, but I have been too busy with other articles unfortunately, and any re-write by me will have to wait until June at the earliest. CT Cooper · talk 10:36, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Okay, I see. Thanks. :) - Jetro (talk) 16:52, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have a slight misgiving about that, at least about the 'balanced argument' part - perhaps I am misunderstanding the guidelines, I don't know.  I do note that the section hasn't come back in any form, however!  Isn't the thing that makes it worthy of inclusion as a section in some form the fact that there was controversy, rather than whether the criticism itself was justified?  It seems to be difficult to find much to 'balance' the debate, to find examples of people saying that the voting system was fine and without problems, which may be indicative of the fact that there was little counter-argument at the time (certainly I don't remember there being very much, and it did result in a change in fairly short order).  Would that mean that, if there aren't enough sources defending the status quo, the section simply can't come back?  As I say perhaps I'm misunderstanding.  Knole Jonathan (talk) 20:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  The issue slipped off my radar last Summer, which is the main reason no content on the subject has made a come back. Its not a matter of whether there are enough sources defending or criticizing a particular decision or action; WP:WEIGHT dictates that different points of view should be weighted in articles based on their level of coverage. To give an extreme example, Wikipedia articles do not give equal time to sources saying the Earth is flat to those that say it isn't - instead almost all time is given to the latter as only an extremely small number of sources support the former. From what I have seen in the voting system controversy, there were large number of sources for both sides, so both opinions deserve decent coverage to meet WP:NPOV. My main complaint though was that any such content should be in a section on the voting system, and not just thrown in with everything else negative in a general controversy section. CT Cooper · talk 21:04, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh ok, but - er - what would such a section look like?  There is nothing remarkable about the voting system this year other than the controversy, so surely it would all be about the controversy - would it merely be a question of retitling the section then?  And I take your point about balance then, I haven't been able to find very much in the way of rebuttal but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough.  Knole Jonathan (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  The important thing is that such a section has "voting" in the title and doesn't become a miscellaneous section about all controversy. There were some sources in the original version, including rebuttals, though there were large swaths of unsourced information and inappropriate content. The tone of the section was not neutral nor encyclopedic, and the inclusion of the "Eastern Europe view" after three-and-a-bit paragraphs did seem like an afterthought, and even that contained editor created rebuttals about "diaspora". On the whole, any re-creation needs to be significantly trimmed down (one long paragraph may be enough), and be fully sourced with appropriate application of WP:WEIGHT. CT Cooper · talk 23:15, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy section? 

message: i can probably find it but i dont know how to upload it to the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.86.142 (talk) 12:53, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  it would be useful with a picture of the stage 

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