Talk:Iranian folklore

message: I think we might be "operating from a different definition of folklore." One definition is  (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.  2000):
# The traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally.
# The comparative study of folk knowledge and culture. Also called folkloristics.
# A body of widely accepted but usually specious notions about a place, a group, or an institution: Rumors of their antics became part of the folklore of Hollywood.
# A popular but unfounded belief.
I would appreciate it if you could source your assertion that "John Henry, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Lord Nelson or Muhammad (or Moses or Jesus, for that matter)"  are "folkloric." I would disagree with the inclusion of some of those people and a source would help convince me. However, there seems to be a necessity of some component of mystery or doubt to qualify as folklore (i.e. "A body of widely accepted but usually specious notions" or "A popular but unfounded belief"). So fame does not equal folklore. This applies to Shabaan Jafari, who was infamous for violence and thuggery. There does not seem to be a component of rumor about him (you can read his biography). We can generally avoid problems from competing definitions (if there even is a difference) by including material that does not violate WP:V or WP:OR.--Agha Nader (talk) 18:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, of course; that it shouldn't violate policies is a given. While it would be helpful to have you provide a reference for your definition, it isn't yet germane to question it, except to note that alternative definitions do exist that differ considerably from that which you provided. I think for both of us, it's (as usual) going to come down to arguing about sources - you won't agree with mine on fact, and I will be pointing out how yours are no necessarily on target. What should we do about these differing approaches because, quite frankly, I have little interest in repeatedly taking you to noticeboards when you lose your temper (as it keeps me from edits and users more deserving of my time). There has to be a middle ground, and it might be helpful for you to point out where you feel yours is. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please refrain from making ill-considered insinuations (I am referring to "you lose your temper"). I suggested that "We can generally avoid problems from competing definitions (if there even is a difference) by including material that does not violate WP:V or WP:OR." So we might have differences of opinion on what is folklore or what is not folklore, but by only including material that is sourced as folklore (per WP:V and WP:NOR we can avoid disputes over definitions. I think there won't be a problem (as long as you do not violate  WP:OR or WP:V)--Agha Nader (talk) 20:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's a good talk. I think some contemporary celebrities can be of positive or negative folkloric importance.Shabaan Jafari's notorious reputation is comparable to persons in Folklore of the United States.In Persian slang , when they want to mention an uncivilized mob , they say "Shabaan bi Mokh" ;same as Al Capone in American folklore.As Agha Nader mentioned :"The traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally" are folkloric;then I think it's possible to count Shabaan Jafari as an folkloric icon of uncivility .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 21:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you - that's part of what I had been saying. While I am not attempting to offend anyone's religious sensibilities, those sensibilities are not encyclopedic. If folklore extends from religious observances (not a part of the story behind the actual observance but something growing out of that), then it is not "offensive". Perhaps a thicker skin might be called for. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Original research is "not encyclopedic" either.--Agha Nader (talk) 21:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, part of the problem is that I think your reading of OR is significantly different than the millions of other users here in Wikipedia. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What am I supposed to take out of such an incoherent statement? --Agha Nader (talk) 21:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Among other things, you can perhaps notice that your characterization of another editor's post as incoherent isn't really all that civil. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When writing about the folklore, that's not surprising to encounter "Original research"! By definition, the folklore can be neither academic nor official!--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:05, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To add , when folklore is defined as "The traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally" , How am I supposed to find written sources to prove it ?!--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, folklore is studied and documented by scholars. I am sure some sources can be found if the material is notable. Otherwise it should not be included: "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it" . I do not think that is the case though. In essence, the unsourced material should not have been added in the first place (per WP:V). --Agha Nader (talk) 16:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  And What if that rare sources are in non- English sources? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 23:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions 

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thread_title:  External links modified