Talk:Electional astrology

message: Article listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion from Apr 18 to Apr 24 2004, consensus was to keep.  Discussion:
From Cleanup: Electional astrology, incomprehensible hokum
*Delete.  I'm at a loss to see how it's different from garden-variety astronomy, but I'm also at a loss to really understand what the hell it was talking about.  Postdlf  18:57 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
**Umm...you know what I meant.  ; )  Postdlf  20:57 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
*Appears to actually be a branch of astrology. Needs heavy work - particularly needing to be relieved of a lot o fjargon, but it is in fact a branch of astrology. Should either be merged into astrology article, or, more probably, left alone until someone fixes it. Snowspinner 19:44 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* It appears to contain no unique content to merge into Astrology. Delete. If someone wants to write a better article on the subject they won't have to feel bad about replacing this content. -- Cyrius|✎ 20:16, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)
* Delete nonsense. Cribcage 20:40, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I'm in disbelief that no one has yet noticed that most of this article is based on fiction, and has been used almost exclusively to promote a religious view.  I understand that electional astrology is not as popular a topic as Astrology or objective validity of astrology, but there has to be someone here to keep wiki NPOV standards. 5700 BCE - Puleez! Zeusnoos 19:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Delete nonsense --M a s 00:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The whole thing?  Zeusnoos 01:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: As it stands, the whole article is a promotion of Hindu/Vedanta astrology and a belief in the mythical yugas rather than a discussion of electional astrology (Greek katarchê) as a whole and its history across cultures.  Tibetan use of astrology, for instance, is strictly electional and arose from a combination of Indian and Chinese astrologies. The Mayan astronomy/astrology was also strictly electional (as an anthropologist of the Mayan culture recently told me). There's potential for this topic, but it might require original research to get it right. Zeusnoos 13:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article needs to be split up. The Hindu methods, yugas etc, are perfectly straightforward within their own sphere of reference and deserve their own article, but to moosh them together with the Western version makes the whole thing well-nigh incomprehensible. Also, further discussion of Indian, Chinese, Tibetan deserve their own articles too. Doovinator 01:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added a few tags.  Most if not all of the Hindu material was written by A.Shridhar who is using it to advertise her besttime astrology book.  The tone is obviously POV in nearly every paragraph.  I know there are a few history of astrology buffs out there, perhaps with some time to spare (i've run out), so the article shouldn't be deleted, just massively scrubbed.  Splitting the two may be fine, the methods do relate more closely when you compare Hellenistic to Indian (many fundamental elements, such as house based horoscopes are post Hellenistic astrology brought to India by Yavanas). Many electional techniques were brought to India by Arab astrologers in what would be the middle ages in the West. If the history were to be outlined, this would be an interesting article. Zeusnoos 01:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I think so too, I find all of it interesting, but WAY too confused as it is now. Doovinator 02:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To address your question of why the section fact tag in western electional - it reads: "It is a subsection of horary astrology that attempts to determine the ideal time to initiate an action."  Electional is not a subset of horary.  It is related (both are based on reach moments other than the nativity, but electional not a subset.  I haven't rewritten this because it would be spitting in the ocean of required changes at this point. Zeusnoos 18:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shocking 

message: The primary issue is not with the material describing what muhurta is
, as perceived by astrologers and believers, nor how it is done, but with both historical errors and the non-neutral point of view tone used to describe the topic. The following are example of a religious statements: 
 "It is gifted by Hindu sages for evolution of humanity. It has with stood the test of time for the last 5 millenniums."
 "Hindu /Vedic system of Indian electional astrology, refers to a large number of treatises gifted by Hindu sages who were blessed with vision to foresee the past, present & future through their devine [sic] vision."
Besides the unverifiable history (the Vedics are soberly dated by historians no earlier than 1600 BCE for the oldest Rg Veda), these statements 
1) assume that electional astrology works  
2) assume that it is a good thing to practice electional astrology and consult with an astrologer.  
While this may be a popular opinion, it is not neutral and not appropriate for an encyclopedia.  I don't expect wikipedia will ever come close to being academic since anyone of any educational level or belief system can edit, but articles should still be called out when they are uniformly favorably presented by those holding the beliefs discussed in the article.  The language could be cleaned up with clauses such as "It is believed by Vedic astrologers that....".  To do so would take a lot of work and time that I don't have to commit to this project.  
The grammar, syntax and spelling should be cleaned as well.
To this comment: "One may soon find additions on this aspect. “Zeusnoos” has expressed his opinion as observed by him about history of astrology".  My so-called opinion is formed on the basis of academic works.  I can only hope this is not too high a standard for wiki.  
I will provide sources and call out disputed factual errors when I can.  I also have some knowledge about Greek electional astrology that I might provide. I've added two sources to the list of works. However, I'm under time constraints and cannot dedicate much time to this project until perhaps July or August.  The problem, as I see it, is that there is no single work about the history of this topic that covers the history of electional astrology in various times and places. Therefore, to write this article the way it should be written might require some original research. It would certainly require digging through a number of academic books and journal articles. Zeusnoos 13:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: preliminary response

message: Zeusnoos said: "Besides the unverifiable history (the Vedics [sic] are soberly dated by historians no earlier than 1600 BCE for the oldest Rg Veda)" Since you like to read books perhaps you should delve deeper, there was nothing "sober" about the academic dating of the Vedas, it was all politically motivated. Early Indologists like Max Mueller were Christian evangelists who believed that the world was created in 4004 BC so in there mind it was impossible for India to have a long history so the chopped down the history to fit their mythology and that is what has come to be the accepted truth long after the West stopped being Christian. It was also an excuse for the imperialist colonial powers to shorten the history of India and make it seem as barbaric as possible as an excuse to continue their exploitation of the country and denigration of the culture. A tradition that you are carrying on. These are the same people who made up the Aryan invasion myth. Chandraputra (talk) 09:15, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: response

message: The above comments are shocking to all the lovers of electional astrology, irrespect of having faith in Western or other systems of electional astrologies. Astrology emanates from spiritualism. Here adovation of a specific religion does not arise, but dictums in the Vedic treatises can never be overlooked while dealing with Jyoitsha / Vedic astrology.
It has been held that electional astrology is one of the best known branch of astrology, which has buit in features of predictive, preventive & prescriptive ingredients. Does any branch of knowledge has these facets?
Comments from specialists in electional astrology are most welcome, but should give / quote facts & refrences from the ancient treatises.
Please go through discussion on " Need for specialist astrologers" in the main article on astrology - just find out why there are no comments on this vital aspect. 
Lovers of electional astrology are requested to go through blogs under  :
Oh, no you didn't
shridharvk , 26 May 2006 (UTC)
:my comments on talk page of main article Doovinator 01:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seek Truth 

message: Please clean up the title (I've tagged the section).  Thanks.100110100 08:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  =Works which fructifiy on specific weekdays - Hindu / Vedic astrological guidance= 

message: This article likely contains too much templates on the beginning. Audriusa 20:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you address the concerns of the templates? `'Míkka 23:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Likely too many templates 

message: I added a mention of the Planetary Hours to the text and a link to a free downloadable calculator since this is the most important traditional western method of choosing favorable times to act.  What research I personally have done on electional astrology (see e.g. Of War, Considerations Magazine XVII: 4 which is an analysis of 13 horoscopes for the first shots fired in wars) indicates that the traditional rules of western horary astrology aren't valid.  SamMart 15:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Addition of Planetary Hours Ref 

message: This article needs to be broken up and separated into separate articles on electional astrology in difference traditions.  The main article on electional astrology should be a short overview on electional astrology that is applicable to all traditions, and then it should point to different articles that go into more depth regarding electional astrology in the specific traditions (ie. Indian, Hellenistic, Medieval, etc). Most of the material in this article on Indian electional astrology should be in an article of its own.  --Chris Brennan 18:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Break up article