Talk:Outside Context Problem

message: Has this term been used anywhere other than in "Excession"? If not, a more suitable category would seem to be "science fiction". --Christopher Thomas 02:41, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The term is used fairly extensively on the web (Google - 3k hits, although wiki and mirrors of do form about half of it), and seems to be used as an example by many non-sf sites ( Story writing]), in some cases (Economics) even without mentioning Banks or mistakenly attributed the phrase to sb else (). It has been used in at least one academic publication (Google Scholar found: 'Information assurance' by David Birchall, Jean-Noël Ezingeard, Elspeth McFadzean at PDF, in the context of risk and security in business). While the terms origin is definetly in sf, it does seem to have surpassed it an entered a wider language. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:29, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Other uses include software engineering (in reference to unexpected changes of requirements) and another article on peak oil.  This page is using the phrase with a different meaning (the problem of how to get outside context into a particular part of a software system). JulesH 15:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: James Howard Kunstler uses the term in this video in his discussion of peak oil.  He contends that our society (especially in the USA) is predicated on the assumption of always-available and ever-increasing energy supplies.  And therefore peak oil and peak energy are outside context problems for us right now.  --Ansible (talk) 04:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage 

message: While I like the Perry's Black Ships in Japan example, I don't think that Hurricane Katrina and flooding of New Orleans is a good OTC example: there have been many floodings in Earth's history, and if the preparations were not enough, the fact that there were some makes it definetly an 'In Context Problem' IMHO. I am also not sure about the meteorite striking Earth example: we are aware it is a possibility, we just think it is so remote it is not worth the effort. Like a plague, it is an extinction event, which is not the same as OCP (OCP does not have to result in exctinction of our species, it is just something almost completly unexpected with potential to make or break given culture). I wonder if 'society awarness' is a possible factor here - i.e. if we can imagine something, is it any longer the OCP? Would grey goo be a OCP or just an extinction event? Alien contact is a better example, although science fiction has paved some way in making most people aware it is a possibility. It would be an OCP a century ago (Well's broadcast of 'War of Worlds' seems to be a good example), but would it still be now? I'd say that if majority of society is not aware of an event with the potential to drastically affect it, it is an OCP. Otherwise, it is an extinction event or just a normal social change. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:33, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I dare say it's futile to try to give an example of an OCP for us (that is, something that is outside our context), because any scenario one of us thinks of is either inside context, or will be as soon as it is explained clearly enough to use it as an example.—GraemeMcRaetalk 05:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not entirely true, I think. Consider this: if several visionaries realise something is possible, but vast majority of the population is unaware of it, then I wager we can still call it an OTC for that society.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed; also, with the aliens, for instance, it's not the mere fact of contact but its content that would constitute the OCP — whatever new knowledge, art, culture &c they were to give to or impose on us. --Sabik 15:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both, I'd think: if most people don't think that aliens can exist that their very discovery would be shocking to them.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples 

message: I've drastically trimmed the "See also" section, leaving only the link to Extinction event, which is relevant whereas all or most of the others are not.
I've also removed the "In film and literature" section which contained such gems as Future Shock, a book on futurology published by Alvin Toffler when Iain M. Banks was sixteen years old, and Roadside Picnic, a classic SF novella published by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky the following year. Excession, in which the term "Outside Context Problem" is introduced, was published by Banks 25 years after the Russian story.  Its relation to either work is unexplained and possibly even unexplainable.
For instance Future Shock, which I have in front of me as I write, is about the impact of swift technological change on societies and individuals.  It is not about the impact of technological change on the civilization as a whole, much less is it about the impact of something external or "unknown".  Toffler identifies and extrapolates, rather, from what he perceives (in 1970) to be existing trends.
The Strugatsky story is based on an analogy between humans witnessing a visitation by extraterrestrials of an advanced culture, and wild animals witnessing a roadside picnic (a similar theme is picked up by Arthur C. Clarke in Rendezvous with Rama).  While that has obvious affinities with Excession, the term "OCP" is not used and the implications for the whole civilization are not explored in the Strugatasky work. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
:With regards to film and literature, I'd think that this section shows examples; as such ones older than the book, which might have inspired Banks, are quite relevant (hence, I'd re-add the Roadside Picnic). While it is ORish, there are other similarities between Strugaccy's work and Banks' (ex. progressors).
:Future Shock, however, is indeed not relevant.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  19:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not "ORish". It is OR. There is no link between these books, and the themes are not particularly similar imo. Find a cite, if it's true! (It's not, so you cannot).Yobmod (talk) 09:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A couple of recent edits

message: I think it's time once more to raise the question of merging/redirecting to Excession#Outside Context Problem.  There seems to be absolutely nothing verifiable to say about OCP that isn't in the novel, and there doesn't seem to be much to say about it that's in the novel, that would merit a separate article. --Jenny 18:06, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with merge. It's not just that this term is a neologism with little (if any) thrid party use - it would be more easily understood and informative as a section in the book's article. This page can be a section redirect, so is just as easily found. I simply don't see any negative points to a merge, apart from annoying fanboys wanting to have as many individual pages relating to their favourite series.Yobmod (talk) 08:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

text: As there doesn't seem to be any further comment, I'll be bold and perform the merge. It can be reverted by anyone who wants to state an objection here. --Jenny 14:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge/redirect