Talk:Kvenland

message: Related article about the Origin of the name Kainuu is now available. --Drieakko 20:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the name Kainuu 

message: The article is currently rated as a B-Class article. I believe this article is good enough to receive a better rating. I will therefore suggest that the main contributor User:Drieakko nominates this article as a Good article candidate.Labongo 17:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, but B class is already a good level. The article is somewhat unbalanced with its extensive usage of primary sources, which resulted from the incident with the now-banned "Kven user", pushing nonsense into this and other articles that could not be tackled in any other way than getting to the original material. IMO, the article is in its current shape very informative, but not GA quality by Wikipedia's definition of the class. --Drieakko 13:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  B-Class? 

message: This article is excellent!!
Finlands history is unfortunately being interpreted with biased Scandinavian nationalism and socialdarwinism, so it's great to read articles that deal with Finlands history in this serious manner.
I think it should be noted that there were several Finnish tribes (that today are known as Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Veps, Ingrians, Votes and Livs) along the whole northeastern Baltic sea. The Livs lived in what is today Latvia and probably had good connections with the neighbouring Baltic tribes. It gives support to the raid against Svitjod. Depending on sources, the ones that sacked the Swedish capital were mainly Karelians and/or Estonians. With a little help from their southern Curonian friends?
Furthermore, there is modern support (in the form of DNA research) to the sagas that the founding kings of Norway could very well have come from what today is Finland. 
Genetic studies confirms that the inhabitants of southwestern Finland were of the same Haplogroup as is the most common in Norway, I1A. As todays Finnish language contains a great deal of Indo-European loan words, it's only reasonable to assume that they originate from the IE speaking peoples of those days. On what other language could Thorolf have met and talked to King Faravid?
Mythology in combination with genetic data reveals more; 
According to Ynglingasagan the inhabitants that became the Danes, that became the coastal Swedes and Norwegians, came from the east. The most common Haplogroup of these peoples is R1B, very common in eastern Europe.
Balticbandit (talk) 21:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finnish tribes in the area 

message: "the king Fornjót that 'reigned over Gotland, which we now know as Finland and Kvenland'". 
I'm probably altogether mistaken here but could the text be referring to the Ostrogoth kingdom which the Huns conqured or demolished in the 4th century. After that the northen areas of Russia and the areas east of Scandinavian in general were inhabited by Finno-Ugric peoples until the Slavic expansion. By the early Middle Age, the closest areas to Scandinavia in the east were still inhabitated by Finnic peoples in Kvenland and Finland among other places. I'm not saying that any accurate historical account would have existed at the time but certainly anybody who had even a vague picture of the history of the Roman Empire and its decline and the role the Goths had been playing, and who by then knew who lived next to the in the east, could reconstruct a history that follows what's described above: "long ago we had these Goths (of whom we have legends) in the east but then they went to conquer Europe and now we have these Finns and Kvens in the east instead".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.27.70.16 (talk) 15:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gotland? 

message: An highly original theory of the location of Kvenland in SW Finland is being put forth without any references. A lot of original or at least unrefenced conclusions or theories are present, like the correction of Othhere´s geography according to the Viking compass. Reference tags are confusingly misused as non-referenced endnotes.--130.234.68.211 (talk) 10:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See my response to your message, which you left on my talk page. Thank you. Nortonius (talk) 12:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: I removed the map in which Kvenland was situated in SW Finland without references. Author of the map had carefully situated the central point of Sweden around Östergötland. In this way he could facture a piece of "evidence" for his theory of Kvenland in SW Finland. If the central point of Sweden was situated around the lake Mälaren, where "Swithiod" presumably really was, we would have a very different picture as the arrow leading towards NE would be directed at NW coast of Finland. And NW coast of Finland is where Kvenland was situated according to pretty much everyone who has published a theory of this subject. The map is so manipulated and misleading that IMHO it cannot be restored. Wikipedia rules against original research make it very clear that new and unreferenced theories cannot be presented in the articles, not even as possibilities.--130.234.5.136 (talk) 13:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of a NNPOV map

message: The article lacks information of what historians say about the concepts of Women Land and Pohjola in relation to Kvenland.  Brief descriptions added, with sources. BoArnezzz (talk) 23:54, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Information pertaining to "Women Land" lacking from the article

message: Although the oldest known Swedish account was written as late as the 14th century (Eric's Chronicle), the term Kven (in slightly varying spellings) can be found in both Swedish and Norwegian - and other - old writings after the 14th century. Other terms for "Kven" have been used as well, most notably the terms Birkarlar (Birkarls) and Caienska, both in slightly varying spellings. There are old references to Kvenland too (e.g. "Caienska Semla"), which were printed after the 14th century.
Unlike user Finnedi stated, Professor Julku alone has provided more than just the one translation for the term "Caieska Semla", which Finnedi pointed out with a support of a net link - Caienska Semla = North Bothnia .  Even that link provides another translation too - Caienska Semla = Kainuu .
The oldest Norwegian tax records remaining, stored at the National Archives of Norway, "Riksarkivet", dating to the mid-1500s, mention Kvens (by that term).
The 1539 map Carta Marina by Olaus Magnus shows "Bercara Qvenar" (Birkarl Kvens) written atop Northern Scandinavia. In 1555, Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalibus (History of Northern Peoples) by Olaus Magnus describes the Finnish traders inhabiting and commuting between the northern coastal area of the Gulf of Bothnia and Norway as "Kvens".
Below are a few quotes (there may be more) from Julku's book 'Kvenland - Kainuunmaa' (1986), which include further translations for the terms "Caienska" (in varying spellings) and "Caienska Semla":
Page 114 (map from 1570): "Kainuunmaa (Caienska Semla) Jäämeren rannalla aivan kartan ylälaidassa." (Free translation to English: "Kainuunmaa (Caienska Semla) on the coast of the Arctic Ocean, at the very top of the map.")
Page 115 (map from 1595): "Kainuunmaa (Caienska Semla) aivan kartan ylälaidassa Jäämeren rannalla." (Free translation to English: "Kainuunmaa (Caienska Semla) at the very top of the map, on the coast of the Arctic Ocean.")
Page 118 (map from 1595): "Vuoreijan ja Varangin vuonon länsipuolisen alueen nimenä Kainuu, "Caienska Semla"." (Free translation to English: "Kainuu, "Caienska Semla", as the name of the territory located west from Vardø and Varangerfjorden.")
Page 118 (map from 1613): "Siinä on vielä Jäämeren "Caienska Semla"." (Free translation to English: "There is still "Caienska Semla" of the Arctic Ocean.")
In the same book, Julku shows examples of old uses of the term "Caienska" (in slightly varying spellings) in reference to the Kven Sea (Kainuun meri), today known as the Gulf of Bothnia.  However, the earliest known reference to Kven Sea ("Qwensae"), from c. 890 CE, appears to have referred to the entire Baltic Sea, when King Alfred the Great noted that where Germany ends, the Kven Sea ("Qwensae") begins.
E.g. the Russians are known to have referred to the Gulf of Bothnia as "Kainuun meri" (Kainuunmeri / "Kven Sea") or "Kajaanin meri", Julku points out (page 95). Julku brings up the following documented old spellings for Kainuunmeri (pages 94-96):
• "Kajano more" (in the Peace Treaty of Pähkinäsaari) in 1323 • "kajano more" in c. 1336-1351 • "mare Koen" in 1497 • "Kainw (Cainus) mare" in 1504 • "mare Kayno" in 1510 • "Cayana mare" • "mare Caino" in 1535 • "mare Caino" in 1537 • "Kaynus mehre" in 1561.
Below is another similar list - not from Julku:
• "Qwensae", by King Alfred the Great in the Universal History of Orosius in 890 • "Kajano more", in the Peace Treaty of Pähkinäsaari in 1323 • "mare Cayane" in 1497 • "Kainw Mare" in 1497 • "mare Kayano" in 1510 • "Cayane mare" in 1535 • "mare Caino" in 1535 • "Kaynys mehre" in 1561 • "Cwen Sea", by Johann Reinhold Forster in 1772.  - - BogatusAB (talk) 17:47, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi BogatusAB, Thanks for this detailed info w/ page numbers.  PROVIDED the basic threshold sourcing problem can be overcome per WP:No original research as described above and at Talk:King of Kvenland, this specific info may help source some of the missing cites for the ancillary info currently tagged in various articles. Paavo273 (talk) 18:11, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  References to Kvens and [[Kvenland]] in Swedish maps and texts after the 14th century 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Thomas.W is persistantly deleting the map of the area of (speculative) Kvenland and also the part of the text which connects the word Kvenland to the word Kainuu. The map has sources provided in the file description and the latter has been studied by Kyösti Julku and Jouko Vahtola, but these are not enough sources for Thomas.W. I would like to start a discussion weather we should accept his deletions which he so persistently wants to do or should we respect what the sources say.
The map added by Roxanna is leaning to following sources:
:1.about the supposed position of Quaenland: File:Europe 814.jpg (The Public Schools Historical Atlas by Charles Colbeck. Longmans, Green; New York; London; Bombay. 1905.)
:2.about Finns and Sami: File:Meyers b11 s0476a.jpg, map for Meyers Konversations-Lexikon, 5th ed., vol 12 (article "Menschenrassen"). Meyers, Leipzig 1897
:3.about the former expansion of Samic people: Großer Atlas zur Weltgeschichte, pages 50, 57, 60f. Westermann, Braunschweig 1997 / dtv-Taschenatlas, vol. 1, page 130. dtv, Munich 1990
:4.about the recent expansion of Finns and Karelians: Taschenatlas Völker und Sprachen, pages 36 and 74. Klett-Perthes, Gotha 2006 / народы мира – историко-этнографический справочник, pages 544d and 560b. Moscow 1988
The latter deletion made by Thomas.W is the part of  the article where it states that "That is the area seen by most historians to have been the heartland of the ancient territory of Kvenland. Accordingly, the view most commonly shared by historians today is that the names "Kven" and "Kainu(u)" likely share Origin of the name Kainuu common roots". --Velivieras (talk) 16:23, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resent deletions of Thomas.W 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: User:Velivieras reverted my deletion made on an IP when I was not logged in. Don't want to create an edit war so I thought I'd bring this to the talk page. I think the section should be deleted for the following reasons. Firstly, "the primeval era" and "ethnically interconnected" are not meaningful terms, and at the very least should be replaced if the section is to be kept. Secondly, the paragraph implies that the genetic data corroborates claims made in Norse sagas about contemporary peoples. However, the genetic data regards hunter-gatherer individuals who died 5,000 years ago, which is, for instance, well before the usually accepted time depths for the proto-Samic language (early 1st millennium CE) and the arrival of Uralic genetic ancestry into Fennoscandia (3,500 years ago). The claim being made by this paragraph, as far as I can tell, is that these Gotland hunter-gatherers were the same as or highly related to the "Kvens" of Kvenland, and certainly in the senses of ethnicity and language this can't really be true. I am a scientist who is an author on a Scandinavian ancient DNA paper. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Samic_language
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6258758/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6544527/
--Massivefranklin (talk) 13:32, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contested deletion of paragraph regarding genetic analysis of Gotland hunter-gatherers