Talk:Super Saiyan/Archive 1

message: SSJ5 is fanon. It doesn't exist. Dragon Ball AF doesn't exist and never existed as something other than a hoax. Adding it to this page does not create a more complete or accurate list. There is no encyclopedic rationale for including this information here. It might be appropiate to have a short mention saying that it doesn't exist, but to speculate even on who would have reached it if it had been reached is stretching things. I vote to cut it out. JRP
If SSJ5 is to be in here at all, it should pertain onlt to what was in the series. Dragon Ball AF doesn't exist. DBAF is a perpetual hoax pulled on "newbies" and there have been many "confirmed" sightings and even some good fan art. But that's all. It's not factual and that type of speculation doesn't belong in Wikipedia. JRP 04:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dragon Ball AF

message: I`ve look aruond in the internet.But i did only see one picture
of SSJ 5 . But they saiy it`s a fake. WHAT DOES SSJ5 REALLY LOOL LIKE?
And what`s wit`s the rumoer with SSJ10 and 12? 
I think its all a fake.
:There is no SSJ5.  There are fake pictures around the internet of SSJ5, but these are created from 3rd parties, and fans.  The most common one looks like a cross between SSJ3 and SSJ4, but with silver hair, and fur.  http://dragonball183.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ssj5.jpg
It was a nice idea, but it doesn't exist.  Bulma mentioned that she could use the machine that transformed Vegeta to make them go even higher in the GT series, but it didn't happen.
puk 00:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does SSJ5 really look like? 

message: There's one thing I don't understand about ssj4.  Whenever someone goes super sayian 4 there old clothes disapear and a new pair of leather pants apear on them.  I don't understand why there clothes change.  There's nothing wrong with there old clothes.  In previous super sayain forms, just there physical body changed, not their clothing.  Also, where do the pants come from.  Do they just materialize out of thin air.
:It's like asking why do dance fusions create Buu-like clothing for no reason, while earring fusions fuse the clothing of both partners. It's because Toriyama's a genius and a dumbass at once. ^_^ Oh, and why does SSJ4 form counteract any magical-youthenizing (as in GT?)
::At least the dance was magical in nature. SSJ4 is supposedly just a transformation like any other. The pants thing is wierd.
:: Keeping in mind that GT isn't canon, we can only blame SSJ4 pants on TOEI animators
On the subject, it's a mistake to say SSJ4s 'get their black hair back' since at least one of them had red hair. I think it was Gogeta.
: Neither Goku nor Vegeta (the two Gogeta is comprised of) have red hair in SSJ 4 form. One could then say that it's just some random result of the magic of fusion, and not a by product of the transformation itself, since neither of them have this occur under "normal" circumstances.
:: I always assumed Gogeta's backward colors were from Vegeta and Goku's tails not touching.
The maigc pants just appear because akira toryama just wanted to try to make the look different. If u have a problem y dont u try to make it look better
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Akira Toriyama didn't design Super Saiyajin 4, thus the pants weren't his idea. And why should anyone 'try to make it look better'? Any artwork wouldn't be considered canon, so there's no point.
Daishokaioshin 06:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magic Pants 

message: Infinare has recently made a number of edits to this article. Some are good. More are fanon, unnecessary, or unsubstantiated. I don't want to revert them all. Anyone want to help me clean it up? JRP 02:58, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by Infinare 

message: I made several corrections to the information on this page, only to have it reverted to the older version by Infinare and HCTPdp. Examples of things which were changed from the corrected version include stating that it is necessary to have a powerlevel of 'at least 800,000' to become a Super Saiyajin, when it is NEVER stated ANYWHERE in canon that this is the case. We don't KNOW what Goku's base powerlevel was when he went SSJ, because powerlevels ceased to be relevant. The last known powerlevel given is Freeza's in Henshin One (his Second Form) which is 1,000,000. Goku's powerlevel before Freeza's is given is 180,000. Of course this increases after he is healed in the rejuvenation tank. But we do not know by how much, so giving numbers that are not canon is providing inaccurate information.
Another change from what I fixed, is saying that it is canon for SSJ1 to modify one's powerlevel by 'a factor of fifty'. This is NOT canon, as it is not stated anywhere in the manga or anime, or by Akira Toriyama in interviews. In fact, he has specifically said that the power of a Super Saiyajin cannot be measured by conventional math.
There were also numerous other corrections I made, ranging from grammatical and punctuation errors being fixed, to the inaccuracy of claiming that having one's sleeping power awoken (what fans call 'Mystic') is a Super Saiyajin level, because only a Saiyajin ever attained this state. This is untrue. Rou Dai Kaioshin (Elder Kai in the english dub) performed this ritual on others in the past. I explained when this happened, and how it resulted in his being sealed in the Z Sword. This explanation was removed entirely.
Please stop changing correct information while in the process of fixing Infinare's modifications. Thank you. - Daishokaioshin/24.20.250.137
Daishokaioshin, where was that section about the Elder Kai being sealed in the sword.  I wanted to read about that one...
puk 00:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing Correct Information 

message: I made a small addition for the Super Saiyan 4.  It was left out that the Elder Kai was the only one who ever knew of the SSJ4 powerup and the requirement of the tail extension and looking at a moon or planet object.  smitheo1/10 Jan 2006.0455
Question: Does anyone have a link to the SSJ4 image that Akira Toriyama officially drew?
Yeah, I'd like to see it too.
KojiDude 19:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Super Saiyan 4 Addition 

message: I added why Gotenks was able to control SSJ3 better than Goku, unless someone has an idea from the series that's different of course.puk 01:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  SSJ3 Gotenks 

message: The article states that only Goku and Gohan have mastered this state, but I always thought that Goten and Chibi Trunks were naturally in this state as well. Their hair appears to be lighter colored in SSJ form than other characters (like how Goku and Gohan's hair blanched somewhat when they mastered the form). In particular Chibi Trunks in SSJ form has lighter hair than Mirai no Trunks did. Also they don't have that feeling of unease, requiring no emotional trigger or power up time to become SSJ's and showing no change in personality. Goten in particular is as cheery and innocent as ever even after the change. Also the boys have immense potential power, as Gotenks is insanely strong, easily a match for Super Buu 1, which make him stronger even than SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks didn't even require training to become an SSJ3, and not as much of a power up time as Goku (who technically had more experience with the form).Onikage725 17:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I was also wondering the same thing too. the theory of a saiyan child conceived by a super saiyan father becoming a natural born super saiyan actually makes sense. How else would have vegeta junior and goku junior turned Super Saiyan if this were no possible and accurate theory. -3bulletproof16 19:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not arguing that a Super Saiya-jin parent = Super Saiya-jin offspring. Though in response to what you said on genetics I won't disagree. However we should keep in mind that Toriyama is a comedy/action manga artist, not a scientist. In his manga it seems that the stronger the parent, the more potential the child. Maybe that's just my interpretation, but it doesn't strike me as a coincidence that Gohan was concieved while Goku was well below Raditz's level and Goten concieved when his dad could wage a battle with Perfect Cell, and of the two siblings, Goten was far stronger at a comparable age and made his first SSJ change by accident and withot need of the Room of Spirit and Time and intense training. Likewise Chibi Trnks was alot stronger as a pre-teen than his future counterpart, and the only real difference is the fact that his father was stronger in the main timeline. Likewise, Vegeta far surpassed his father and Goku far surpassed Bardock at the same age. So i'm not disagreeing with you in general, but I don't think Toriyama bound himself to those rules.Onikage725 17:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not going to totally disagree with the previous entries. I do sort of think that this is all made up to fit the story. All the previous cases are true, but consider this case, Goku Jr. I know, I know. I am going to have a thousand replies saying that this is not canon, but think about it. Three or Four generations later, a child at this age would be ridiculously powerful. Then again I might take that back. They do seem to have sparks around them like a Super Saiyan 2............. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... ww32k @ msn.
Well it is quite confused on this one....but Trunks and Goten achieved SSJ while they were playing training games for a long time.  Whenever Bulma brings Trunks over to visit Chi Chi, the two boys would do training games and Goten showed his mom that he was already a SSJ.  Eventually they were used to the SSJ powerup and didn't show rages and anger like Goku. Goten had no idea what it was until he seen Gohan transform.  As for the fusion, well that's not what this topic is, but it goes back to what the Old Kai said...because the two were rivals make the fusion more complete....so SSJ3 Gotenks was indeed stronger; however it had the same type of power draining effect.  Remember, they probably had six months to achieve SSJ3 in the chamber in the Buu saga (time chamber's time is different, so SSJ3 was not achieved so quickly).  
Now I wouldn't go as far as saying that they were at full power.  I don't even know where 'full power' comes from.  They were only getting used to the SSJ powerup without feeling angry.  Once controlled, the stamina is increased and they can focus on transforming to the SSJ2 level.  They just thought SSJ was a fun thing to do!!
puk 02:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FPSSJ? 

message: In episode 83 and 84 of Dragonball Z vegeta is shown as a Gigi Super Saiyan. Vegeta has a yellow glow and a yellow power up. Even in the dialogue before Vegeta started fighting, Frieza called a vegeta a sub-super saiyan or implying that vegeta was not there yet but half-way.
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Since Vegeta reached it during the Anime then it is Canon.
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...Yellow glow and yellow power up do not equal Giji Super Saiyajin. Freeza did NOT call him a 'sub-super saiyan'. He MAY have said that Vegeta isn't quite there yet, but that's not the same thing as being Giji Super Saiyan, which is an actual physical change, rather than an alteration in aura color. Vegeta was not enraged, and thus was not close to achieving SSJ. He would not have been able to go Giji SSJ, and he DIDN'T. There are lots of times when people have aura changes, and that doesn't mean they're transforming each time. Please stop jumping  to conclusions.
Daishokaioshin
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Actually Freeza's exact words were "Sub Super Saiyan".  Not only that but Vegeta definately appeared "enraged" his pupils' were visible when he started powering up and then dissappeared, he had the yellow aura and yellow electricity shooting around him.  Stop with the condensing tone when was the last time you watched the actual episode?  I watched it the day before I put that edit in there.  He was obviously close he just needed his trigger to finish his transformation.  You can say what you want but you can't explain his pupils dissapearing if he wasn't in that state atleast for those few moments.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vegeta.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vegeta3.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vegeta4.jpg
notice his pupils are gone and the electricity
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I was not using a "condescending tone". This is the internet. There is no "tone". It's all text. And eyes disappearing doesn't equal Super Saiyajin either. Prior to Super Saiyajin making an appearance, the eyes of characters disappeared for a number of other reasons. One example that comes to mind is that it sometimes occurs when a character dies. Another is when a Saiyajin turns into an Oozaru. If you're going to use "eye disappearance" as evidence of being close to Super Saiyajin, then why couldn't the same evidence be used to point towards Vegeta being close to turning into an Oozaru? Sure, the context is different, and he didn't have his tail and thus couldn't turn into an Oozaru at that time, and yadda yadda yadda. The point remains that Giji Super Saiyajin is NON-CANON. It does NOT appear in any of the canon episodes, and thus Vegeta was not transforming into it. He was powering up. He did not have the required motivation to transform into a Super Saiyajin, nor the other required conditions. He was not Giji Super Saiyajin. Period.
Daishokaioshin 03:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoaaa kiddies, it's NOT that serious :p But the bottom line is that it was never stated in the manga that Vegeta did anything more than power up. He thought that from his near death experience he had powered up sufficiently. He was clearly mistaken. Aside from the power up, he didn't appear any differently at all during his fight (keep in mind the only direct reference we have for Giji SSJ is Movie 4 in which Goku's eyes and aura were altered for the entire time he held the form). Also keep this in mind- every Saiya-jin reaches a Giji-ish state when they transform or attempt to. Remember when Gohan was training to go SSJ? Or Mirai Trunks? Their aura would increase and their hair would raise. But there is a BIG difference between "almost going SSJ" and "transforming into a Giji Super Saiya-jin." It's theoretically possible that Vegeta started to change into an SSJ but lacked the full requirements to make the change. Failure to make the change doesn't mean you exist in the halfway state. GSSJ is a transformation of itself, shows in the constant SSJ-ish aura, and burns a tremendous amount of ki due to it's imperfections. Onikage725 01:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. In the manga he never shows any sign of being close to GSSJ at all. Even if he did reach it in the anime, it was just filler aperently.  You wanna tell me that Trunks reached Giji SSJ too, because he did that for a few seconds?
Finally some decent reasoning, not just "he wasn't cause I say so".
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Any bickering or insults on this topic will be deleted. Feel free to continue discussing "Vegeta Giji Super Saiyan", but if you wish to insult people, please take it to private talk pages.
Daishokaioshin 11:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vegeta Giji Super Saiyan 

message: We're arguing over semantics and I don't think it's important. If you want to say "DBZ manga" then go right ahead, but it's not accurate. In Japan, there are two releases of the Dragon Ball manga: one in 42 volumes and one in 36 volumes. I own some of both, but not all. The 42-volume version has been released in the US split into two chunks. Volumes 1 through 16 were released by VIZ in the as "Dragon Ball" and the rest as "Dragon Ball Z". I presume these are the releases that you are talking about, but it was simply a marketing decision to release the books with the name most familiar to the readers. (If you check any of the volumes' cover art, you can still see the original number. For example, Goku wears a shirt with "17" on it on the first DBZ volume. And in the lower-right corner, there's a "DB 17 of 42" label.)
Now, you could *also* be talking about the movie tie-in mangas which were released in Japan and titled DBZ. These were not mangas in the traditional sense because they just consisted of animation captured from the movies with text bubbles. However, they aren't mangas in the strict sense of the word, but hey. We speak English and not Japanese and one word is as good as another.
Just before you decide to argue about research, please try and have your facts straight. As it stands, I'll leave it your way though it is not completely accurate. JRP 03:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll find you a reference. I'm sure Daizex has some, but I'm not sure where immediately. As for the untranslated originals, I *just* got back from a vacation to Tokyo-- my first trip there-- and I picked up some of the new 36-volume DB mangas. They are *nice* and I hope VIZ releases them here eventually. Unlike the ones we have, and the original Japanese 42-volume release, they have the pages that were originally in color in Shonen Jump in color again. That's almost worth the trip itself... JRP 04:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My response to this will continue over at Talk:Dragon Ball Z since this issue is larger than just this one page. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 13:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: DBZ Manga

message: I've looked though but it seems no one has mentioned this (sorry if im wrong, I could have overlooked it). 
The picture under the heading: Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan seems to look like Trunks in that state - not Goku.
It could be a mistake on my part, but if it isn't, could somebody shed some light onto this please?
--Cloak' 14:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Easy to confuse, as the pics are cropped pretty close and they both wore the same armor at that point. The two face pics are in fact Goku.  They are from when he powered up to show Gohan the forms (and why he considered them useless). Onikage725 16:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, ok. Thanks, they looked quite similar. I got confused.--Cloak' 20:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're welcome :) Onikage725 02:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trunks or Goku?

message: It says in the article that half-saiyan's bodies are weaker than full saiyans, but as far as I can tell this is purely speculation. The fact that, during the final battle with Cell, Gohan was stronger than his father at a far younger age, shows that it's simply not true. Goten and Trunks were also both halfbreeds and, since they both acheived super saiyan at a young age, were both stronger then their fathers at the same age. Half-saiyans not being able to acheive Super Saiyan 3 is also pure speculation - since Goten, Gohan and Trunks all stopped training hard at the end of DBZ, logically they wouldn't have gotten there. In any case, Goku was the only case of SSJ3 to ever occur, so it's very fuzzy in the area. The real proof that it's wrong, however, is that Gotenks could go SSJ3. Though you could argue that the two 'saiyan halves' double over, making him pure saiyan, this wouldn't make sense from a genetic point of view. In other words, Gotenks was a half-saiyan and he went SSJ3, so there is no proof to say an unfused halfbreed couldn't achieve it if they became powerful enough.
In addition, Goten being weaker than Gohan wasn't a result of his genetics, it was a result of him not training as much. This can also be shown by the fact that Goten reached Super Saiyan at a younger age than Gohan. Seeing as both Goten and Trunks stopped training after DBZ, it's logical to assume that they wouldn't have achieved higher stages of power. I'm making slight edits to remove those comments. - Gregorz
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What they mean when they say a partial saiyan's body is weaker, is that the partial saiyan can not ascend past a certain level.
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Partial saiyans as in half saiyans, quarter saiyans, and so forth are naturally weaker than full blooded saiyans but they can become stronger than a full blooded saiyan. Half saiyans and partial saiyans can become super saiyan 3 by relasing alot a power or something like that. Partial saiyans can go super saiyan 4 if they have a tail or are exposed to alot of blutz waves from some sort of device like Vegeta.
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Uhh... There's no evidence that partial Saiyans are weaker than full-Saiyans. And there is no evidence that says a partial Saiyan can become a Super Saiyan 4.
Daishokaioshin 21:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Half-Human Half-Saiyan speculation. 

message: There seems to be some confusion about transformations and the numbers attached to them. Transfromations increase the base power of an individual. It is the base power that determines how strong someone is, not their transformation alone. For instance, when Vegeta first showed up as a Super Saiyajin he was stronger than Goku in that same form (even if Goku had been completely healthy). Does this mean that Vegeta's power was equal to a Super Saiyajin 2, because he was stronger than Goku as a Super Saiyajin 1? No. It just means his base power was strong enough that when it was increased by SSJ, it went over Goku's maximum. Another example was Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Gohan when they were in Super Saiyajin 1, and Gohan was in Super Saiyajin 2, during the Majin Buu saga. Their base forms were stronger so their transformations made them stronger according to that base.
Legendary Super Saiyajin isn't actually a form. It is a status. But just for the sake of argument, we'll say that it is a unique transformation. If this is the case, then we still have no way of knowing what kind of modification it makes to the user's power, because it is never stated. Did Goku go Super Saiyajin 3 and fight Brolli when he was transformed? No. Would it have mattered if he did? Not at all. Because, see, Goku was already WEAKER than Brolli in his base form, and thus, unless Super Saiyajin 3 put his power equal to Brolli's in his transformed state, then comparing the too wouldn't prove anything. Super Saiyajin 3, and the other transformations, don't provide a fixed power level to the user. It's an enhancement to base power. To say that Brolli's transformation is "equal to a Super Saiyan 3" just because he was stronger than Gohan in his Super Saiyajin 2 form, doesn't make sense.
Daishokaioshin 04:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transformations 

message: The movies are not canon. A few of them could possibly be considered canon (such as The History of Trunks, and the Bardock Special), but most of them just don't fit into the canon timeline of events, for various reasons. Here's an example:
In "The World's Strongest" everyone is alive and on Earth, Goku has Kaioken, and there is no sign of Vegeta. This disqualifies it from being considered a canon movie. If Goku knew Kaioken but had not yet gone SSJ that would place the movie before the Namek Saga, because he only appeared with Kaioken during the Saiyan Saga. However, after the fight with Vegeta, Goku was laid up in the hospital until it was time to go to Namek, leaving no room for this movie to have taken place. ADDITIONALLY, since everyone was still alive (most notably Piccolo and Kami), that means that the Saiyan Saga hadn't happened yet, because Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu should all be dead if Goku was on Earth and knew Kaioken (and the Spirit Bomb for that matter). As you can see, there is no possible way that this movie could have happened. There's no room for it in the official continuity.
Here's another example, and the reason why Giji Super Saiyajin is non-canon:
In the movie with Lord Slug, once again, everyone is alive and on Earth. There is still no sign of Vegeta, and Goku knows Kaioken but cannot become a Super Saiyajin yet. This automatically disqualifies it for the same reasons as "The World's Strongest". The fact that Goku attains False SSJ means that he wasn't just holding back and not using full SSJ, as some fans claim, because if he could become a full SSJ then there would be no use for Giji Super Saiyajin, right?
I can explain why most of the other movies are non-canon as well, if people need further evidence, but for now I think this shows quite clearly that to consider Giji Super Saiyajin canon is a mistake.
Daishokaioshin 16:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bojack didn't really know much about the heroes (at least not in the original version. Goku wasn't warned because Bojack wasn't a threat until Cell killed Kaio-sama. Race- he's his own race (i.e. not a pre-established one), but he's most similar to Garlic Jr's. They have a similar transformation style. Onikage725 16:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movies 

message: It seems to me that in order to become a SUPER SAIYAN a saiyan warrior must have a minmum power level of 300,000. I'm not exactly sure but it's a rough estimate on my part beacause Gohan himself almost became a Super Saiyan when he fought Freeza in his 4th form.
207.69.137.35
We don't know how strong Goku was when he became a Super Saiyajin for the first time, so there is no basis for saying that there is any minimum power requirement. Also, it is highly unlikely that Gohan was anywhere near 300,000 as his powerlevel, though, once again, there is no stated powerlevel beyond Freeza in his 2nd Form, so we should not and cannot accurately determine what powerlevel any particular character had beyond what is SPECIFICALLY STATED.
In addition, I saw no signs of Gohan being about to turn into a Super Saiyajin against Freeza. He got mad, but he has gotten mad plenty of times before without transforming.
Also, consider Goten and Trunks. We don't know how strong they were when they first became Super Saiyajins, but it is improbable that they were already stronger than Goku when he arrived on Planet Namek. Chi-Chi could match Goten until he went SSJ, and she was fairly weak as far as DBZ fighters go (though still much stronger than a normal human). From this we can deduce that Goten was close to his mother's strength when he first transformed.
Trying to guess at powerlevels or say that there is any specific powerlevel requirement to transform is a waste of everyone's time. There is NOTHING in canon that suggests such things, so we should simply leave the issue alone.
Daishokaioshin 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Powerlevels 

message: I have a question about Ultra Super Saiyans. Wouldn't Super Saiyan 2nd Grade be Ultra Super Saiyan while Super Saiyan 3rd Grade is Ultra Super Saiyan 2.
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Actually that's your opinion and it's not necessarily wrong. I've never heard a definate source stating about the USSJ stuff. but if you said USSJ2 then people might think you would be mixing up with SSJ2. metalhead 17:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ultra Super Saiyan

message: Why are we using the incorrect dub name?  Thanos6 21:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tien vs. Tenshinhan 

message: Me and my freinds made our own little manga thing out of bordem and our ssj5 is exactly like SSJ4 except with the hair of a ssj3 (but the hair is black) and i have a question about ssj4, Why does the shirt disapear? O.o
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Probably the same reason that those using SSJ4 get new pants. Because the makes of GT were nitwits. Lots of things don't make sense in GT. Trying to make sense of it is making the assumption that there is sense to be made.
Daishokaioshin 02:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does SSJ5 look like? 

message: I have a question. Which is stronger, SSJ3, or LSSJ? In the first broly movie, goku can't hurt brolly as a SSJ, and he need sto take power from 4 different people to beat him. He doesn't ascend to any higher forms, but there has to be a dramatic power increase from not being able to hurt somone to being able to knock them into a 7 year coma with one punch. I'm just wondering if a SSJ3 could beat a LSSJ.
KojiDude 17:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LSSJ&SSJ3 

message: In the article it says that Elder Kai states that if a sayin went SSJ with his tail the tail would turn yellow as well. And that brolly went SSJ while he had a tail in movie 11. I don't remember Elder Kai saying anything like that and i don't remember Brolly ever having a tail. Please let me know if i'm wrong.
KojiDude 18:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Super Sayin's Tail's 

message: I want to bring this up here before making any changes, but I've noticed this article seems to be written under the assumption that Goten and Trunks were born without tails. Unless this was written somewhere in a published interview I haven't seen, then I think it's fairly baseless. If halfbreeds weren't born with tails, then explain Gohan's? And the "SSJ father" excuse could only apply to Goten. Both versions of Trunks were sired prior to Vegeta's transformation. Goku and Gohan's had been repeatedly removed while they were young. By the time Trunks and Goten are born, the consequences of an Oozaru's rampage are well known by the Z Senshi. Not to mention that a random Oozaru scare from one of the kids would be utterly without point thrown in the middle of the Buu Saga. Unless anyone has a reputable quote stating they were born without tails, the only real conclusion is that the tails were removed. Keep in mind that in the Saiyan Saga everyone was frightened to see Gohan had a tail, and Goku later becomes aware that he murdered his grandfather in Oozaru form. Piccolo also has to contend with a rampaging Gohan, and Goku has to struggle to help Gohan maintain some sense of reason during a similar rampage. I highly doubt anyone would allow newborn Saiyans after this point to pose the same risk. Onikage725 21:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That makes the most sense to me. Besides, the purple Oozaru that Trunks would most likely become would just be silly-looking. Noneofyourbusiness 21:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Goten and Trunks, tails?

message: I added Gogeta to the list of people to reach SSJ2, unless someone has proof he wasn't SSJ2
KojiDude 14:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gogeta SSJ2 

message: I speculate that their hair is not really golden but their MASSIVE power shines through it creating the illusion of golden hair Dragon Emperor
:The problem with that theory is that it stays that way when they aren't fully powered. FPSSJ is the perfect example. They walked around like normal. Goku was hrut by a rock. They weren't powered up, just staying transformed. So it's not simply an effect of the power coursing through them. Onikage725 09:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Golden Hair