Talk:History of the socialist movement in the United States

message: This is a wikification and npov adaptation of my Senior report on Socialism. (For those interested, the original version is available on my talk page at User:LockeShocke/Why_did_Socialism_fail_in_early_20th_century_America, but the changes are mostly cosmetic.) I put up this page at the request of User:Sj.
To Do
* Decide whether inserts about President Obama are a) allowed and b) allowed to be edited anonymously  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emathias (talk • contribs) 00:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I've removed this text from Social democracy because I felt that it didn't belong there.  Having seen the article, it looks as though it doesn't really add anything new here, so I'll just post it here and if anybody finds it useful, feel free to factor it into the text. Slac speak up! 08:36, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What a hateful and bias edit. It looks like a 9th grader rewrote it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.122.37.178 (talk) 17:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Text removed from [[social democracy]]

message: This article is in serious need of npov work.  Taking most of this information from a source such as Howard Zinn makes the entire article suspicious.  Zinn is himself a socialist and is unreliable as an objective source, especially regarding this subject.  Words such as "oppression" and "prejudice" are clearly not NPOV.  --Bayyoc 02:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Have you read any of the articles on capitalism, globalization etc, the viewpoint of socialist's, antiglobalizationist, etc are well represented. Regardless this is the history of socialism in the US, not an article on how the mechanics of socialism work.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madrone (talk • contribs) 09:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I would argue that the particular uses of "oppression" -- only in one subsection -- and "prejudice -- except for maybe the last use in reference to Congress -- are not as grossly POV as one would think. As well, after a scan, most of the Zinn quotes are somewhat benign, for example, detailing the composition of the party, quoting Debs, or reporting the number of people that gathered in the streets. LockeShocke 16:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: Milwaukee was the first US city to ever elect a socialist mayor. He had office for more that 20 years. There were hundreds of other socialists in the city board. There is what, one or two sentences about them in th Milwaukee article and there's nothing about them in here. I don't know enough about them to write them in, but perhaps someone does? The Person Who Is Strange 01:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Sewer Socialism or List of mayors of Milwaukee. RoyalMate1 00:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Milwaukee Sewer Socialism

message: I'm about to move this article to Socialist movement in the United States.  The United States has never been socialist so there has never been "Socialism in the United States." Most of the article focuses on the socialist movement.  Only the very last section makes any reference to the United States actually being socialist or socialistic, and this section does not have much relevance to the larger issues discussed in the article. Any thoughts on the move?--Bkwillwm 19:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a separate issue here. The establishment of the income tax, family courts, and social security were de facto socialistic implementations and should be addressed. Socialists do not like to call the USA socialistic, because then it would shed light once again on the failures of the idea. Jcchat66 00:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I see what you're saying, but, then again, there has never been Liberalism in China or Secularism in Pakistan, having an ism at the end dosen't mean it was ever in effect, so I think  is a better title. Charles Essie (talk) 23:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No the Socialist MOVEMENT is a political Marxist movement (with few legislative accomplishments).. SOCIALISM is a much broader term that includes actual legislation by liberals, of the sort the conservatives complain about. Rjensen (talk) 22:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Move?

message: pretty sad how socialism ended in the 1920s and how selfish people have become since then
:Would you care to elaborate? Socialism actually went into practice after this year, not before. Large corporations formed in the late 1800's beginning with the railroad companies, and the dramatic increase in government management and selling of land to large corporations. The New Deal and the emergence of Social Security also marked an increase in socialism in the US. Jcchat66 02:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1920

message: I'm kinda disappointed after having seen this article. I came looking for what may be considered traces of socialism in our government today, yet found a more historic approach regarding the early history of socialism in the U.S. Recent events were barely, if at all, mentioned.
Could someone please volunteer and add this info to the article?
Abel 05:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Recent events and trends towards socialism are stronger than ever, and yet not mentioned here. We could find plenty of right-wing websites for citations ... but I'd rather not. Surely there is a more academic approach to the question of modern US socialism? Or have all universities been overrun by peer pressure? Jcchat66 18:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Further Discussion

message: As written, the article as a whole emphasizes the SP, the SLP, and their political methods over the IWW and other groups adopting economic methods, without even covering the debates, or their organizational consequences. Jacob Haller 16:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Socialism's ties to labor

message: The article is generally comprehensive, well-written and of appropriate length to be B-class. While I would like to rate it High in Importance, the article lacks enough recent evidence (e.g., doesn't really go past the 1920s) to justify that. The focus of the labor section is on the IWW and Palmer Raids, doesn't discuss the Social Democrat movement of the 1960s and 1970s, doesn't discuss major rifts between conservatives and socialists in labor in the 1940s and 1950s, etc. So, Mid importance is all I can justify. - Tim1965 (talk) 15:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Labour Project assessment

message: Since expanding this article beyond 1920 has been considered an important part of this article's to do lists, I think it would be best for any interested editors to start gathering sources on socialist movements during the Great Depression.
From my own cursory knowledge and my hazy memory of the subject, I know that some subjects of interest would be the (temporary) resurgence of the Socialist Party of America and how it related to the Great Depression. But, for the most part, the primary agent of action in the American socialist movement would have been the Communist Party USA, along with communist influence in the Congress of Industrial Organizations. I know Zinn's A People's History of the United States would be a good place to start. I've recently procured a copy, so I'll get working on a rough draft for a new section.Sarcastic Avenger (talk) 23:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The Socialist movement durign the Great Depression

message: There is no need to have this photo of Marx. Marx was not an American Socialist. Marx is a polarizing, controversial figure in socialism. Throughout the history of socialism, many socialists have disagreed with him. Socialism is not the same as Marxism. I have moved Marx's photo to Socialism.Tova Hella (talk) 10:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo of Karl Marx

message: In the Political Oppression section it reads:
"In June 1917, President Woodrow Wilson signed into law the Espionage Act,[16] which included a clause providing prison sentences for up to twenty years for “Whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully cause or attempt to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty… or willfully obstruct the recruiting or enlistment of service of the United States”.[15] The Socialists, with their talk of draft dodging and war-opposition, found themselves the target of persecution. Scores were convicted of treason and jailed. "
That whole section, as well as this paragraph, stinks of bias. Is the author suggesting that laws which forbid draft dodging and sedition have anything to do with socialists specifically? If so then the argument here is that these laws were set up to persecute socialism and not to strengthen the war effort. Thus by extension of that argument, one could say that the war itself was waged to persecute socialism in America. On that logic I could say that those laws were made to persecute all pacifists, not just socialism, and even that more generalized version of this argument would be a bold lie.  Why is this sitting on the page unchallenged? There are no sources to indicate half the information in there, the other half is obviously steering the reader in a direction sympathetic to the subject matter and away from factuality.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Napkin65 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The section does not say the act was passed to specifically target socialists.  Modern legal opinion is that the act violated the Bill of Rights.  TFD (talk) 21:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Maybe you haven't read the section then. The first line claims it to be the case and modern legal opinion was not cited as a source for that opinion. The section is rhetoric and the sources come from Howard Zinn. This is far from unbiased.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Napkin65 (talk • contribs) 21:51, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

text: The paragraph begins, "Aside from the military, the Socialists would meet harsh political opposition as well when exercising their First Amendment right."  Even American conservatives today support that statement.  Do you have any alternative sources that discuss this period?  TFD (talk) 22:12, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

text: My point is the section represents an uncontroversial view.  If you disagree with it please provide a source.  TFD (talk) 22:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

text: No, you need a source that explains these events differently from the way they are presented.  If you did write that the moon was made of green cheese, and sourced it, then I could refute it with a source explaining the composition of the moon.  OTOH if you wanted to change the moon article to say that it is made of green cheese, then you would have to find a source for that.  See WP:Verifiability:  "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true".  TFD (talk) 23:15, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Howard Zinn is a reliable, verifiable secondary source. Your own interpretation of a Supreme Court ruling is not.RolandR (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Exactly; and Wikipedia policy is that [[Wikipedia:No original research|"articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources." RolandR (talk) 20:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

text: While you are entitled to your opinions, the purpose of the talk page is to improve articles, not to engage in political debate.  TFD (talk) 22:11, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Unnecessary information in Political Oppression section

message: Responding to numerous complaints/suggestions, I imported text from the American Left article, covering 1920-2011.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  After 1920 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :History of the socialist movement in the United States's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "carson":
From Dyer Lum: 
From Anarchism in the United States: Carson, Kevin. Mutualist Political Economy, Preface 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 02:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:History of the socialist movement in the United States]] 

message: The § on the 80's and 90s needs a title like "Reemergence of Anarchism and Eastbloc collapse" but there's nothing about the latter, which even if American Socialism was oblivious to it (which it wasn't) that would need to be noted (easily sourced from the usual suspectse.g. monthly review, wsws, defensofmarxism, etc.). Lycurgus (talk) 02:07, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Also there needs to be some expression of the fact that American Socialism has repeatedly shown itself to be utterly incapable of responding to events in an effective way. It's zenith was in the American Progressive era, and none of the Great Depression, the cultural revolution of the sixties, the 2008 collapse of markets, Occupy, etc., were opporunities that affected its generally feckless character. This § is a good place for the start of that, maybe one sentence, another in that with Senator Sanders noting the recovery of the system with its identity ploy (Obama/fake left) and recovery at a new and higher level of inequity/exploitation, the dissipation of Occupy, etc. Elsewhere, such events have resulted in real change, opportunities seized, so it's noteworthy that this hasn't happened here. Maybe even a whole § on subjective factor. Lycurgus (talk) 09:25, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistent Periodization 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:American Left which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 23:17, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: This text paragraph seems dubious by not mentioning by name the author of said quote and reads almost like an advertisement: "In an interview by The New Labor Forum, a DSA member testifies "I have basically been a lifelong liberal who has very slowly radicalized and was kind of catapulted into radicalization by the Bernie primary campaign. I really didn't know about the term democratic socialism until Bernie started using it".[262] These organizations like the DSA are leading a movement that is giving voice to left-wing positions, emphasizing issues such as affordable housing, universal health care, opposing public subsidies for corporations, seeking the creation of government-owned banks, environmental justice, and free college for all."--Carbonheat (talk) 04:23, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  21st Century 

message: A redirect is not a main page. Xx236 (talk) 06:32, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Second Red Scare]] is a redirect 

message: :I do not know US customs, but there were fights between Communists and Social-Democrats in Germany before 1933. Xx236 (talk) 06:37, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Lists of organisations are integrated as texts. I would prefer lists or tables. Xx236 (talk) 11:47, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Communism Socialism? 

message: Seria uma boa traduzir este artigo como :es:Socialismo en Estados Unidos? SDS. 2804:14C:5BB1:9473:F585:C48E:EEBC:F01E (talk) 21:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melhoras no conteúdo