Talk:Mizrahi Jews

message: In the article Mizrahi Jews Debresser made an unjustified "undo" with "Latest revision as of 10:22, 3 April 2016". He undid my deletion (bold italic) of the claim that "Mizrahi Jews were either expelled by their Arab rulers or chose to leave and emigrated to Israel". I previously checked the cited resource and confirmed that the claimed word 'expel' did not appear there. Yet as (undiscussed) reason for his 'undo' he claim that it does. So, Debresser please indicate where, in that JVL article, you found (specifically ... not some subjective 'equivalent') the words "expell", "expulsion" or "expelled". If you cannot, please obey Wiki rules and revert to my correct version. Erictheenquirer (talk) 12:51, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Erictheenquirer, please don't get all worked up about this. The article says: "severe violence against Jews forced communities throughout the Middle Eastern region to flee once again". That sentence supports the statement that Mizrahi Jews were expelled, although I agree that the "by their Arab rulers" part remains implied. I wouldn't mind tagging that part of the statement with a  tag. Debresser (talk) 20:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invalid Reasons given for a deletion edit 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There are certain discrepancies on these pages relating to “World Jewry” Many Jews in France are of mixed Sephardic-Mizrahi heritage sometimes these two groups are even interchangable, a point should be made of that as many of the famous and notable Mizrahi Jews in this page are from France and listed as such but France is not mentioned in the population section. On another matter is the topic regarding Iraqi Jews I regardless of what the article might state, Jews in Kurdistan are almost entirely mixed with Muslims so the families numbering over 100 in Iraq would come from Jewish families mixed with other faiths.  Dont belittle245 (talk) 04:00, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mizrahim in France  

message: :Because they're not, they're a separate group of Jews entirely.135.23.20.146 (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indian Jews (Bene Israel) are also Mizrahi Jews? Why are they not listed in the population table? 

message: There is no citation for "From 1940 to 1980, over 1.1 million Mizrahi Jews were ethnically cleansed from the Arab states, Iran, and Turkey. Some of the factors behind this ethnic cleansing were antisemitism and the Arab-Israeli conflict." This seems like a controversial statement and needs a citation. Wiki user wiki (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The uncited material you refer to was just added by an IP editor. Here is a link to their Talk page. IP editors in particular are subject to having their uncited edits reverted, but having a little discussion is more politic.--Quisqualis (talk) 02:31, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

text: I have fixed this and added relevant refs--Shrike (talk) 09:17, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncited ethnic cleansing 

message: Following the discussion in Talk:Mizrahi Jews#Original research, I believe it was quite thoroughly demonstrated that the term Mizrahim as used in the article is an Israelo-centric term, with a bit of background in Mandatory Palestine and limited influence outside Israel. Furthermore, it is sociological rather than ethnic, used as an umbrella term for widely disparate groups which have almost nothing in common except their labeling as Mizrahim in Israel. Virtually every single serious source will concur (cf. for example: Sammy Smooha, "Mizraḥim", in the Brill Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World). Therefore, implying the term before or outside the Israeli context, as is done in the article, is plainly wrong. Ergo, it is redundant to have two separate articles, the one here and Mizrahi Jews in Israel. We should have a single article termed "Mizrahim" ("Mizrahi Jews" implies ethnicity, like Yemenite Jews who are an actual ethnic group with a real common culture) concentrating on the Israeli context. It must make it clear that the subjects are not "descendants of local Jewish communities in the Middle East from biblical times into the modern era... Maghrebi Jews from Tunisia, Algeria, Libya and Morocco who lived in North Africa prior to the arrival of Sephardim" (the latter statement, differentiating between Sephardi exiles and "native Maghrebi" who are supposedly "Mizrahi" is extremely nonsensical). Additionally, all the so-called "Mizrahi Jews topics" in the template named thus must be sifted through. Most may be definitely included in a template named "Jews under Muslim rule" or something along this. The arbitrary application of "Mizrahi" to communities as far as Morocco and Bukhara already sprouted preposterous articles like the now-merged Mizrahi Hebrew. AddMore-III (talk) 17:22, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly disagree with this, "Mizrahim" as an article has no place in English wikipedia. It reduces the existence of any Mizrahi Jews and Mizrahi organizations outside of Israel. JIMENA is a legitimate Mizrahi Jewish organization, which exists in America and not in Israel and speaks on Mizrahi issues. "Jews under Muslim rule" does not apply to some Mizrahi Jewish groups and reduces their history to after the 7th century. Again, I will repeat because you have repeatedly ignored it: Ethnicity is not synonymous with language and you have no right to subjectively say a group "is not a real ethnic group." Ethnicity is a group of people identifying with each other based off similarities. That is what Mizrahi Jews are. Your own sources concur that this identity exists today regardless of its origins. Making a single article called "Mizrahim" is makes no sense outside of Hebrew wikipedia. I will continue to reject any resolution to this article which completely negates the existence of Mizrahi Jews outside of Israel. Or any resolution which is inaccurate with regards to what Mizrahi refers to.--Gruzinim (talk) 17:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Anecdotal evidence are no match for academic sources. Identity is not ethnicity, especially not one originally imposed from the outside and explicitly rejected by many. Your claim that all Mizrahim "identify" as such is completely unfounded. Shas denies it, preferring "Sephardi" (Sammy Smooha,writes very clearly (p. 417 here)), and that's just one case. There is an emerging positive Mizrahi identity, itself subject to intense intellectual debate, but that cannot be conflated with ethnicity. AddMore-III (talk) 18:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Shas is a religious party, and Sephardi (Sephardi Judaism) is used as a religious term. That has no connection to anything we are discussing. Please stop citing sources which have no relation to anything then claim I am giving anecdotal ones. This is not anecdotal. Your own sources you've cited in our discussions above acknowledge that Mizrahi Jews exist, they just point out the origins. I never claimed all Mizrahim identify as such, that has never been a requirement to be recognized as a people. There are some considered Palestinian who don't identify as such, that doesn't mean that Palestinians aren't a people. You seem to be fixated on your own made up definition of ethnicity. I'll quote you on what you think it means:  It doesn't have to be, not to mention it's subjective what you consider "authentic culture." Ethnic groups are people who identify with each other based off of similarities that can be as meaningless as what you look like. --Gruzinim (talk) 18:48, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea what you're aiming at. Please answer my questions: do you acknowledge that the term was imposed from the outside? That not a few of the supposed 3,5 million claimed here as "Mizrahim" either reject the title explicitly, or aren't aware of it at all (Sephardim in Argentina, for example)? That all academics describe "Mizrahim" more or less as I describe it, as a sociological label in the specific context of Israeli discourse? If so, then the article should reflect that. AddMore-III (talk) 07:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your own sources contradict your claim that it was imposed from the outside. This is from the post that started this whole mess:  According to your own sources, Mizrahim was an evolution of the term which they found to be condescending. As I stated before, people within an group rejecting the identity doesn't change the legitimacy of that group. I don't see what connection Spanish Jews in Argentina have with our discussion of Middle Eastern Jews. You are misrepresenting what the academics say, Mizrahi Jews are a ethnicity by definition not just a "sociological label." --Gruzinim (talk) 08:31, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

text: Greyshark09, you just conflated two very distinct subjects. The origin of the term "Mizrahim" is well documented, and it is in modern-day Israel. As the communities in Iraq, Persia etc., which were sometimes referred to as "Mizrahi" they have their own articles. Do you have sources to back your claims about Shamis etc.? AddMore-III (talk) 14:33, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: I'e taken a look at the source by Ducker, claiming 61% Mizrahi ancestry Jews in Israel and cannot find any mention of this number. Moreover, the author fails to distinguish Mizrahim from Sephardi Jews and puts all non-Ashkenazi background under Mizrahim (notably including Indian and Ethiopian communities which are not Mizrahim). It also wrongly claims that "many of the immigrants of the Soviet Union are Sephardic Jews", which is of course incorrect - some of those Jews are Mizrahi who use Sephardi liturgy, but not Sephardics proper. From a deeper analysis, it looks that the paper is an M.A. thesis, which is frankly a very low level of academic paper, certainly not a strong source, if used at all.GreyShark (dibra) 07:49, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Percentage of Mizrahi Jews

message: There is an unsourced claim that Yemeni Jews and Ethiopian Beta Israel were absorbed into Sephardi rite. This however is quite dubious, as many Yemenis do identify more with the Ashkenazim upon similarity of the customs. Beta Israel is a complex story - they are recognized as Jews by the Sephardic rabbinate, but not "absorbed" proper.GreyShark (dibra) 08:01, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Yemeni and Ethiopian communities

message: The opening paragraph contains a number of allegations that are either flatly false (the name of the Mizrachi Religious Zionist movement and the other bodies, for example, has nothing to do with Eastern Europe) or tendentious and at least debatable ("orientalism" and the like). The former do not belong on this page; the latter do not deserve to be so far up, if anywhere.Nelamm (talk) 07:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening Paragraph 

message: The column of the right is a mess:
1. It is written 4.6 millions when the sum of all the countries is 3.6 millions.
2. The source of the 4.6 millions is an opinion article written by a twitter activist who has no academic knowledge of the issue. So this is not a serious source.
3. Obviously the Israel figure counts mizrahim and sefaradim together since all non ashkenazi Jews are around 50% of the Jewish population in Israel and this is what this number gives us. But after that the other countries includes only Edot Hamizrah communities and not sefaradim. So that's not coherent.
4. The figure for the USA is not sources and unrealistic. In the sefaradim article they give the same number for sefaradim in the USA, a figure also unrealistic and unsourced.
Basically this column needs to be erased because it is unsourced and incoherent. 109.186.86.184 (talk) 06:07, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Evidence? The Banner talk 11:09, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics 

message: The lead says:  but the infobox gives: 
Which one is correct? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither. They’re different stats. The 44.9 percent derives from self-reporting/self-identifying as part of the census. The 61 percent does not factor from the same grouping or factor in self-identification - merely ancestry pools (as in there are fewer Israelis of Mizrahi descent that identify as such than the total number). Mistamystery (talk) 18:51, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That said, there could be a clarification added in the article lead to clear this up. (I.e. “44% self-report as mizrahi as per census etc etc, but the number of Israelis with full or partial ancestry is upwards of 61%” etc etc Mistamystery (talk) 18:56, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the clarification, I tried something to make it clearer. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  % in Israel 

message: The infobox gives 3k Mizrahi in Turkey. Does this include Sephardic Jews as well? History of the Jews in Turkey gives 15k Jews in Turkey, most of them being Sephardic. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:10, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  # in Turkey 

message: The article quoted in footnote 48 does not give any evidence of the number 4 million. This claim is currently therefore unsubstantiated and requires a source. KxLondon (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  4 Million Jews Mizrahi, Footnote 48