Talk:The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc./Archive 2

message: Just a quick note about WP policies as they apply to this article. An article about an organization or website may use that's organization's website or other self-published sources only as a source for information about itself. All other references must be reliable published sources per WP:RS (e.g. published books). In particular, information about any other organization must have such a reliable published (book) reference, and information from the website  of a competing organization may not used for citations in this article. For details, see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources in articles about themselves. -999 21:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Autobiographical" articles

message: Frater, it's poor form to undo the work of other editors. By all means, add to it. But cite as you add. It's extremely rude to remove another editors work like that. Please read WP:POINT, etc. about trying to make a point by taking a dispute with an editor to another article. It's frowned upon. Thought you might want to know... -999 (Talk) 03:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reverted him twice now. He still is not learning, sadly. Zos 03:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, it appears we may have to report Frater FiatLux soon, I've reverted him 3 times. Zos 04:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Its not "my" version, but its the one that has citations. I'm not pro-anything either. Please report me, it will only prove you wrong. Thank you. Zos 04:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd also like to ask where you discussed the need to delete cited material on this talk page Frater FiatLux? I'd also like to ask that you address me by the name I sign my comments, some might get confused as to who you are talking to. Thank you. Zos 04:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your name is Synergistic Maggot and you and 999 have been trying to present a biased and Cicero POV page here showing Cicero's "legal superiority". It's obvious. Please discontinue in this line of  editing. Kephera975 01:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We are allowed to present any cited information we wish. as long as it is cite, you should not remove it, but add to it. If you remove other editors material, you will be reverted. If you leave it in, then we can discuss the relevance of your additions. -999 (Talk) 02:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, and if your remove this cited material, you will be reverted as well, and we can discuss the relevency of what you previously edited in in order to show HOGD, Inc.'s "legal superiority". Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's neutral point-of-view policy. Kephera975 02:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: But if you remove our in the process of adding yours, we may revert. Try adding it without removing our, then we will discuss it's lack of pertinance to this article. -999 (Talk) 15:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do not delete 

message: The conflict caused by pro-Cicero users 999, Zos, and Cicero Lisencee JMax555 on the Golden Dawn Tradition, then on the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Rosicrucian Order of A+O) page has spilled over to this page as well as onto the Heremetic Order of the Golden Dawn main page as well. 999, Zos, and JMax555 are unrelenting in their agenda of promoting a pro-Cicero POV and edit out anything that does not fit in their POV agenda. They refuse to discuss and compromise. Some of us will no longer allow their bullying, however--Zanoni666 01:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What we have here is a miunderstanding. A large one. All we would like, is for you to ADD info to the article, not delete cited material. This is not how you edit articles. Zos 03:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean as long as we all toe the JMax-999-Cicero party line and promote only their revisionist vision of GD history, right? Just because material is cited does not make it true. Just because it is verifiable does not make it free of revisionist POV either, as in the scewed revisionist vision of Golden Dawn history being rammed down everyones throats by JMax555, 999, and Zos with their guerrilla edit warfare tactics!--Zanoni666 07:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia does not allow you to remove cited information! Don't you get it? Please see WP:V: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." By verifiable, it means that one can cite a reference and the material is included in the cited reference. It doesn't matter whether you think the infomation is true or not - you MAY NOT REMOVE IT. So STOP. -999 (Talk) 13:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: So let me get this straight. Zanoni666, you're HermeticScholar? I just checked the history on this talk page and it appears you are using two user names. Im not sure if this is going to help your argument at all but we need to come to a compromise here. Please allow cited material to remain, and if it conflicts, then we can remove the sources that dont add up, and maybe place a few statments in a controversy section in the article. Sound fair? Zos 15:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can, and have to, cite any page from which we obtained information. We can even add to the article about the lawsuit and directly mention the fundraising campaign - it's information provided by the org on its website. -999 (Talk) 15:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "I'm not sure any of this material is encyclopedic anyway. I'm still thinking about just recommending the whole lot for deletion. Tom Harrison Talk 15:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: We've always been willing to compromise. Just don't remove our material when you add yours. Get it? -999 (Talk) 15:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also have been willing to compromise. And I'm not a member of a gang. I'd like you to stop accusing others of being members of golden dawn also. Thank you. Zos 16:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Tom Harrison would be shot-down in any AFD if he tried nominate this article for deleation. Don't be silly.  I think you misunderstand the roll of administrators on wikipedia... they don't have any more say in policy then we (non-admins) have. ---J.S (t|c) 23:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV Bias

message: It was Cris Monnastre, aka Patricia Behman, who was Israel Regardie’s primary student, having studied magic with him for hundreds of hours.Regardie, Israel, et. al., eds., The Golden Dawn: A Complete Course in Practical Ceremonial Magic (Llewellyn, 1989), p. xxii  Under Regardie’s tutelage, Behman founded the Osiris Khenti Amenti temple of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn in Los Angeles in 1982, then travelled in with Regardie to Columbus, Georgia to be initiated into the Adeptus Minor grade in a Vault of the Adepti built by the Ciceros. This visit was the first time that the Chic Cicero met Israel Regardie. During the visit, Cris Monnastre and Adam Forrest were initiated by Regardie into the Adeptus Minor grade and Eva Cicero into the Neophyte grade.Cicero, Chic and Tabatha (2004). The Essential Golden Dawn: An Introduction to high magic: Llewellyn Publications, p.255. ISBN: 0-7387-0310-9.
*Again, this is immaterial to the article. Belongs in biographical articles about the subjects of the paragraph. -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: During the visit, Cris Monnastre and Adam Forrest were initiated by Regardie into the Adeptus Minor grade and Eva Cicero into the Neophyte grade.Cicero, Chic and Tabatha (2004). The Essential Golden Dawn: An Introduction to high magic: Llewellyn Publications, p.255. ISBN: 0-7387-0310-9.
So I've gone ahead and added it to the article and added strike marks above to indicate that we are now only discussing inclusion of the remainder of the material -999 (Talk) 15:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regardie

message: I don't find anything wrong with this bit.
:During the visit, Cris Monnastre and Adam Forrest were initiated by Regardie into the Adeptus Minor grade and Eva Cicero into the Neophyte grade.Cicero, Chic and Tabatha (2004). The Essential Golden Dawn: An Introduction to high magic: Llewellyn Publications, p.255. ISBN: 0-7387-0310-9.
So I've gone ahead and added it to the article and added strike marks above to indicate that we are now only discussing inclusion of the remainder of the material -999 (Talk) 15:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing discussion

message: Following a schism in 1994, Ms. Monnastre was summarily replaced on the  HOGD, Inc board of directors by Tabatha Cicero. Ms. Monnastre continued to operate her original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, together with David Griffin, independently of the Ciceros.Florida Department of State, Division of Corporations, Document Number N25541. Retrieved June 3, 2006.
*Immaterial to article, belongs in bio of Ms. Monnastre, perhaps? The article should be about the org itself based on the orgs website, not a criticism of the org based on the view of a competing order. -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Schism

message: Hello, I found this page listed on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Religion and philosophy. I'll be looking it over and then adding my independent opinion to the fray. ---Baba Louis 17:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice try but not very honest. The truth is that you were recruited for reversiond on yout talk page by 999. Please be more honest in the future if you expect to be of any value at all here. Under the circumstances, You can by no means be considered independent. Don't worry though. I am sure 999 will recruit some pther 'external' participant but will be more careful not to get caught this time to preserve at least the 'appearance' of 'independence.'--Zanoni666 05:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External input 

message: Ok, this is a bit strange now. I've seen this user, in this talk pages history switch between two different user names. First he/she was HermeticScholar, and now it appears that they are Kephera975 as well. This is in turn affecting the consensus. Zos 20:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Zanoni666 simply made a cut and paste error. Look at the time stamps. Apparently coming up with his own words is beyond him. Next time, just say "agree with Kephera975", okay, Z? -999 (Talk) 20:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: More accusations, is it? A user hardly needs a whole section devoted to them based on some witch hunt, thank you. Kephera975 03:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved your comment, please note the time stamp. I wasnt accusing anyone of anything, just saying its a bit strange. And it was. I was waiting for a comment from Zanoni666 on this. Plus, this is a talk page. Headers can be created to discuss the editing, and the users who edit, so its like seperating this from the rest of the conversaion, k? Zos 03:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect thqat you Zos are a sock of SynergysticMaggott. How do you report that agaiin 999?--Zanoni666 05:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zos is SynergeticMaggot! Zos is simply his signature line and links to the correct user page. -999 (Talk) 15:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize if I've rattled you enough to assume I am me. Zos is the nickname is put when it asked me for it upon starting my account. But thanks for the concern Zanoni! Zos 15:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zanoni666 

message: Looks like the addition of this has consensus, assuming a good citation is provided. The second part is already in the article, so... can you give a date for this meeting? That would be helpful.
Following this meeting, Cris Monnastre, Chic Cicero, and Adam Forrest began working together in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, later incorporated in 1988 as a non-profit organization in the State of Florida, with Chic Cicero listed as its registered agent. 
*The verifiable part of this is already included in the article. Do you have a source for the "Following this meeting, Cris Monnastre, Chic Cicero, and Adam Forrest began working together in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" part? -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Done 

message: Since the following appears simply to be an uncited and uncitable attempt to smear Chic Cicero in violation of WP:LIVING, I am moving it here to the trash section. If you want to revive it, please provide a reference to somebody who made these allegations in print. -999 (Talk) 16:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have. There are open questions in this section to which you have not responded. The ball is in your court. I'm waiting to hear how the OTO camp is pertinent and what source you have that says it is pertinent. -999 (Talk) 17:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trash 

message: In 1978, Chic Cicero was initiated into the Ordo Templi Orientis and began to operate an OTO camp in Columbus, Georgia.Cicero, Chic and Tabatha (2004). The Middle Pillar: The balance between mind and magic: Llewellyn Publications, p. xxiv. 
*This is immaterial to the article and more appropriate to a biography of Chic Cicero. It has nothing to do with the subject of the article. 
**Omit not pertinant to article. -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: OTO Camp

message: What precisely is this supposed prove? How is affiliation with one organization incompatible with affiliation with another? Somebody's not stating some premise here that begins, "Because he was in the OTO, he couldn't have been founding a Golden Dawn temple." But that's just a bald assertion, so you're trying to hide what you're really trying to say in a glamour. Bad form. Out with it. -999 (Talk) 03:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing discussion

message: Contrary to popular misunderstanding, Chic Cicero was never initiated by Israel Regardie, but rather by HOGD, Inc. board member, Adam Forrest, and there exists no verifiable evidence that Chic Cicero ever even met Israel Regardie in person on more than two occasions.
*Again, who says this? Where is the reliable source that makes this claim in print? -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regardie

message: popular misunderstanding - this is simply a WP:WEASELterm used to introduce a null subject - a claim which itself has not been cited. It doesn't exist. From anything, anything follows. You have to document that someone has made a claim first. Then we can discuss whether there's a suitable source for a rejoinder.
"was never", "no verifiable evidence" - lack of evidence does not prove anything. This is uncited original speculation, so struck. -999 (Talk) 16:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing discussion

message: Your revert game will not work, 999. When are you guys going to stop playing games and talk in good faith?--Zanoni666 17:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have. There are open questions in this section to which you have not responded. The ball is in your court. I'm waiting to hear how the OTO camp is pertinent and what source you have that says it is pertinent. -999 (Talk) 17:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk instead of revert

message: This article is hereby protected. Resolve your disputes here, on this talk page. This article will not be unprotected until a concensus is reached about the disputed material. Once a concensus is achieved, contact me to request unprotection. Page protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. --Lord Deskana Dark Lord of the Sith 19:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The meditaion page is here, for all those who are involved. Zos 05:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: You will all note that I have filed, and requested for mediation in this disputation; I feel the time is certainly right at this stage, seeing we’re in a deadlocked situation with no coherent consensus, and moreover, now the edit/revert wars (games), are over, as I requested the pages to be locked; to now put forward serious negociation, proposals and substantial compromises. I want to seek mediation in this highly problematic, long-standing case now, as want to propose what I think will settle the disputation by making significant compromises and proposals.  I fear that if I were to proceed in executing these to the discussion page, that under current circumstances and without mediation, my proposals and compromises will be lost; and further unrest and schism will be the only result, as per tradition with this discussion.  I would like to make these proposals with a mediator involved to as I feel this will put a halt to the never ending arguments, intrigues and disputes.  In the hope that some immediate ground will be made on this now that the edit/revert warring is not now taking precedence over serious discussion and consensus building.
I trust you will pledge your agreement to the mediation and start the ball can start rolling and this can be sorted out properly and in a dignified manner.  I will be shortly making my recommendations and proposals to the discussion page herein, very shortly. 
At this juncture, and in recent days, I have been exceedingly reticent at involving myself in any of the supra postings, as it never seems to get us anywhere, thus, I have indeed, refrained from doing so.   I now will now involve myself again with constructive consensus building hopefully, under the guidance of a mediator; any other effort is completely wasted otherwise in my own opinion, as it only degenerates into further argumentative schism. 
I trust you will find this in order gentlemen.
Frater FiatLux 21:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The meditaion page is here, for all those who are involved. Zos 05:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation.