Talk:2006 Venezuelan presidential election

message: why is the word incumbent part of this page  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.150.138 (talk) 18:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Restrictions placed on other candidates:
*Media input included in CNE rules. El Universal (2 August 2006).
*CNE imposes no restriction on Chávez' activities during electoral campaign. El Universal (1 August 2006).
Sandy 13:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Has anyone considered yet how to handle this information?  I don't fully understand what's going on.  Sandy 01:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Need to update

message: I think she is backing Rosales  but perhaps ccs1830 has some fresh news from tv or radio JRSP 13:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno.  I haven't had time yet to read today's news, so I just tagged it so we could check it later.  Sometimes breaking news gets us into trouble, like the LA Tims on Borges as "running mate".  Also, silly me, when I tagged it, I didn't know Caracas1830 was the editor who had added it, so I wasn't sure if it was legit.  I should have checked the edit history. Sandy 13:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, my mistake. Her party's website did'nt say anything about her support for Rosales.(Caracas1830 20:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One more thing, Rosales promised Borges that if he wins, Borges will be his Vice-President. That's not exactly a running mate as it is un the US. But we'll have to wait and see. (Caracas1830 20:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Caracas, do you have a source?  If so, we'll add it back in, along with the LA Times article.  Sandy 21:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest to wait some time until those announcements become public and official.(Caracas1830 23:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cecilia Sosa

message: Can someone define the presidential term in the lead paragraph?  
::A president will be elected for a six-year term, beginning day Month year and ending day Month year.
Sandy 23:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Constitution Art. 231:  Term is Jan 10, 2007 to Jan 9(10?), 2013 JRSP 00:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Define term

message: *Lead
*Table of Contents
*Candidates (at most one-sentence bio and one-sentence campaign platform)
**List all candidates in this section
*Campaign platform (more detail on campaign platform, but list only Chavez, Rosales here)
**Chavez 
**Rosales 
*Endorsements (list, require references, only 2 main candidates)
**Chavez 
**Rosales
*Other candidates
**More detailed bio, campaign platform, and endorsements on all other candidates
*Polls
*Ads
*Timeline
**Primaries
**etcetera
*Concerns over electoral registry
*etc
Sandy 01:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed structure 

message: JRSP, you forgot to fill out the detail on a ref named ElUniversal20060619
:I think this is the missing ref, so I added it (not sure, since it doesn't match the 20060619?)  Sandy 00:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ah ha !  it was 0819 - the date.  No wonder I was confused! Sandy 01:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem, only ref if controversy arises. BTW I have a problem with UNION the Francisco Arias Cárdenas party. It links to a dab page JRSP 00:46, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check here - very incomplete:  List of political parties in Venezuela.  Sandy 00:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not there, perhaps we better remove the wikilink JRSP 01:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess so:  but maybe someone will work on creating all of those articles, now that they are all mentioned here.  Sandy 01:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What about Union Party?. Same for Socialist League JRSP 01:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those work - I just don't know where to find info to write the articles, and then they also have to be added in to the List page.  Sandy 01:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I don't know where to find the 20 mentioned here:
  "El candidato unitario de la oposición, Manuel Rosales, inscribió hoy formalmente su candidatura a las elecciones presidenciales, respaldada por más de 20 organizaciones políticas."  Maybe someone else will fill them in.  Sandy 01:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't worry they will appear in the news or cne page more sooner than later JRSP 01:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here it is  JRSP 23:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I didn't see this until after I'd entered El Nacional, and then had an edit conflict.  I started an abstention category:  please double check that I got everything, because of the edit conflict.  Sandy 23:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let me see what I can get on Resistencia Civil. In google I only get hits about Mexico and López Obrador JRSP 23:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It seems to me that Resistencia Civil is not for Rosales. JRSP 23:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Should we wait for clarification from others (I don't know who originally added them to the list), or go ahead and delete?  And, do they go in Abstention?  Sandy 23:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In the ref (Jul 30) DAR Jr says no Chávez, no mainstream opposition, no Conde. And I don't read any endorsment or call to abstention. Better delete, but DAR is a political maverick you never know JRSP 00:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Smith is backing Rosales  JRSP 16:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's on El Universal, but not yet on their English page.  Maybe they haven't translate it yet.  I'll wait until we have an English-language ref to add the ref.  Sandy 16:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rosales endorsements

message: What's the exact thrust of that slogan? "Down the throat" in English gives me an idea of violence, forcefeeding. Is the Spanish that violent? Is he promising to ram 10m votes down the opposition's collective throat or what? Bolivian Unicyclist 13:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PS, yes, I do believe that an accurate interpretation would be as you say, a promise to ram them down their throats.  Look at all of his dialogue, and the way he speaks in general.  It fits.  He appeals to the lowest and most vulgar use and phrasing in Spanish.  An example would be the things he said in reference to Condoleeza Rice, which are just embarassing for the leader of a country.  Or the time he said (on TV or radio?) that his wife was "going to get hers" when he got home that night. Sandy 15:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Not really, it could be used for instance for the result of a baseball game ( e.g. Los Leones de Caracas le metieron 10 carreras por el buche al Magallanes ) JRSP 14:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which, in the context of baseball, can mean the same as "meterlo per el culo" (shoving it up their butts).  Por el buche can also refer to something like a chipmunk with its cheeks bloated full; a mouthful.  A better analogy is, when you're playing soccer, it's used when a goal is scored between the goalie's legs, with his legs open -- le metieron el goal por el buche.  The problem is that this is a reflection of Chavez's incredibly low-class and vulgar way of speaking, so there isn't really a decent translation.  Given the choices, I think "down their throats" is a better translation then up their butts or between their legs.  Agree, as JRSP says, it's not violent, just a reflection of Chavez's incredibly disgusting and vulgar way of speaking.  Sandy 14:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More:  the exact translation of buche, according to Chicago dictionary, is mouthful.  Another example is when a pelican (alcatraz) has a mouthful of fish that it hasn't swallowed yet, and you can see it in its pouch (el alcatraz tiene el pez en el buche)  Sandy 14:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Folkloric but not vulgar, you can say "por el buche" when talking to a lady, not the same as "por el culo". It basically means "you have to eat this even if you don't like it" JRSP 14:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I think that's a fair distinction (culo vs. buche), but it's still a very vulgar, crude, base way for a leader of a country to speak.  Sandy 14:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: When referring to body parts Spanish uses the determinative articles where English uses possessive adjectives: "me lavo los dientes"="I wash my teeth". "Their throats" is a better translation that "the throats" JRSP 15:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "By the mouth"?, "down their throats"?, the vodka is good but the meat is rotten :-) JRSP 01:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I say, revert.  Nothing against anons, but they really should read the talk page.  I'm still open to coming up with something better, but that's not it. Sandy 01:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Diez Millones por el Buche

message: :Uno de los temas trascendentales de la campaña es la defensa de nuestra soberanía, de la libertad de nuestro país de haber dejado de ser una colonia norteamericana
I had a crack at rewording that earlier, but I'm still not happy. He speaks about defending two things: (1) nuestra soberanía, and (2) de la libertad de nuestro país de haber dejado de ser una colonia norteamericana -- which I read as meaning (those discomfited by the split infinitive might want to turn away at this point) "our country's freedom to no longer be...", ie, its freedom to choose to no longer be a colony, with the haber dejado meaning that it has already made that choice. 
(Did you make it this far?) Maybe a better translation would be "the defense of the decision that our country has taken to no longer be...", "the defense of our country's decision to cease being"... although I'm still not convinced; bit more polish needed there. Help? Bolivian Unicyclist 15:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wish I could help, but I can tell from your edits throughout these articles that you're a much better grammarian than I :-)  The only thing I would say is to not combine the two thoughts into one:  my sense is that they are two separate thoughts.  The best option to me seems to be "our country's freedeom to no longer be ... " I will watch for a translation in the English page of El Universal, because then we could go with that as a reliable source (rather than our own translation). Sandy 15:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps in this context "libertad" could be translated as "choice" : "... the choice of our country of having ceased to be a North American colony" JRSP 16:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, that works too.  Hard for me to tell what to do here.  Sandy 18:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wait for more opinions, present translation is fine in the sense that it faithfully interprets the Spanish original. Fine tuning the translation is good, but we are discussing small details JRSP 18:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: la libertad de nuestro país de haber dejado de ser una colonia

message: We still have no source for their endorsement:  is anyone able to track this down?  Sandy 18:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AD - Trade union faction?  Meaning, not the entire party?  So what do we do with that?    Sandy 03:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: National convergence

message: Up to 87 claims of violation of rules on advertising. Sandy 22:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Violations of campaign rules

message: I reverted the unsourced (although it could be sourced) edit about the latest PBS poll, as the previous poll controversy isn't relevant here.  It's one of many polls, there will be more, and whether they got it right or wrong years ago isn't a controversy we need to cover in this article. New account -->  SandyG 17:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: PBS poll

message: The rallies section is completly unsourced. The whole section, including the selection of photos, shows a pro-Rosales bias JRSP 01:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I cleaned out all the unsourced editorializing and original research (hence removed the POV tag), while also doing some copyediting and cleanup, and restoring some sort of timeline order to the sections.  I got into an edit conflict with you, and since I had made major changes, I overrode your edit - I went back and checked, and don't think there's anything I need to fix from the edit conflict, but please have a look.  SandyG 20:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done, thanks for the warning JRSP 20:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rallies section (POV)

message: it is his own little theory, and he claims he was misinterpreted.
"Keller afirma que fue mal interpretado cuando explicó que el tamaño del mercado de Chávez es de 52% mientras que el de Rosales es de 48%: "No me refería a la intención de voto sino a la segmentación política". A su juicio una situación de mercado casi mitad-mitad "pone las condiciones básicas para que pueda ganar cualquiera"."
 Flanker 20:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keller poll is not voter intention... 

message: It is not an electoral but a political issue, nowhere does it state who to vote for and the CNE has not even recieved a complaint about it
http://buscador.eluniversal.com/2006/11/05/pol_ava_05A800383.shtml Flanker 21:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seeing as this is a sticky issue I want to see how it is justified as a n electoral issue. Since Nowhere in the speech is the election or voter intention mentioned. Flanker 05:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: There is very strong evidence that the workers are told to support the process and the president, but no real evidence has surfaced that they were toldo to vote for what, in itself ilegal. That is video in a nutshell. Not to mention they are barely 0.1% of the population and would never decide an election.Flanker 18:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: However inmoral or ilegal the action it has to be proven it belongs in an article about an election which just by reading the speech critically was not about it, under wikipedia standards it appears just filing an accusation may be enough... but at least it is filed, second it is a slippery slope fallacy that if it happens in one area it happens everywhere, PDVSA is the goose that lays golden eggs. Flanker 23:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Ramirez/PDVSA issue 

message: The issue at stake is not that Chavez said it which is verfiable, the issue is if it is the campaign slogan which is NOT.
This is what nearly all campaign propaganda says on the street:
http://static.flickr.com/18/70846586_291ae3f421_o.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/53/215307646_3dcd1878e6_m.jpg
Flanker 05:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No rebuttal yet... You have to show a reliable source calling it the campaign slogan... Flanker 00:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Por el Buche addon 

message: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2018
I really don't think we should find the most anti-REP quote and stick it in the prose, both representatives say the same, that there are errors but that they do not benefit either side, specially the government Flanker 06:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues in quoting the Venanalysis article. 

message: We need to add every detail worthy of an encyclopedia here is a good source with everything needed  Flanker 16:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alright we need to do a logistical explanation of the whole voting process  

message: Remember that wikipedia backtracks links, I don't want the article of 8 November to trackback to this article simpley because it is the date of me retrieving the Universal article. Too much noise. Flanker 00:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you sure? MOS:DATE does not list references dates as an exception (only headers, dab pages and quotations). Stephen Colbert at the 2006 White House Correspondents' Association Dinner, a recently featured article, has all ref dates linked. MOS:DATE#Dates containing a month and a day guideline says "If a date includes both a month and a day, then the date should almost always be linked to allow readers’ date preferences to work, displaying the reader’s chosen format". I must agree with you that linking is not the most elegant solution for the date format problem JRSP 02:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah but the date that you read the article is by far completely irrelevant to an encyclopedia. For example the date an editor saw and referenced Atrevete con Manuel Rosales is being linked is being tracked  definitely creating worthless overhead, granted it is more important overall not just here. Flanker 23:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree there should only be relevant links but it appears linking month-dates pairs is standard in featured articles (check recent FAs), I believe a better solution could be a template like  but for now it appears to be the solution for the date/month format problem. Not a very good solution, specially considering that most users do not set a date pref. JRSP 23:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates of the references should not be wikilinked 

message: I put the polls in a table, but the references still need some cleanup. I also added missing polls from the Spanish Wikipedia, but some of those had broken links, in that case I didn't add them.--enano (Talk) 22:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I searched "survey fast" in google news and found very few hits: petroleum.world, two others (infolatam & univision) mention it as a survey appearing in petroleum world. An independent RS is necessary for this poll to be mentioned in the article. JRSP 15:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Petroleumworld is the www.Vheadline.com (currently moving) on the other side of the spectrum, neither are reviewed by a third party editor, nor does anyone vouch for them in the MSM.Flanker 16:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polls 

message: I am not very sure this site is reliable. It sounds strange that this poll was not mentioned by mainstream Venezuelan media specially considering it is a "man bites dog" news JRSP 23:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I searched "survey fast" in google news and found very few hits: petroleum.world, two others (infolatam & univision) mention it as a survey appearing in petroleum world. An independent RS is necessary for this poll to be mentioned in the article. JRSP 15:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Petroleumworld is the www.Vheadline.com (currently moving) on the other side of the spectrum, neither are reviewed by a third party editor, nor does anyone vouch for them in the MSM.Flanker 16:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  www.petroleumworld.com 

message: In english we use a commas instead of decimals and vice versa. 
In the Wikipedia Manual of style it says under Scietific style.
"For units of measure, use SI units as the main units in science articles, unless there are compelling historical or pragmatic reasons not to do so (for example, Hubble’s constant should be quoted in its most common unit of (km/s)/Mpc rather than its SI unit of s−1). For other articles, Imperial, U.S. customary, or metric units may be used as the main units of measurement. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Units of measurement for further guidance. The Wikipedia rule for commas and periods in numbers is, for example 12,345,678.901 — contrary to Continental style."
[User:The 13th 4postle]
: I agree you have a point JRSP 17:01, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper Comma Placement 

message: The copyright holder is Boyd. Flanker 19:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have his permission in writting? you have to put what he said, public domain is a very different animal. Flanker 12:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Rosales rally image is not public domain 

message: As of today (I saw it in real time) this page is being subject to sabotage. The one I noticed was that the some of the poll results (recoverable from elsewhere) had been inverted. Admins: please take appropiate action.
--Juanco 19:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah it is pretty bad, we should still keep a close lookout for the poll invertions or vandalism since they are the easiest and effective way to paint a different picture. Flanker 20:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sabotage 

message: This image is digitized "to reproduce a hisotircal event". This is someone's interpretation of what happened and it is a very touchy subject because many people (specially in the oposition) take pride i the numbers of their marches compared to the ones of chavez. I dont know about you guys, but this kind of makes the article lose credibility. (Antonio.sierra 21:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The image comes from a government source and that is certainly more verifiable than a flickr image (taken without permision the source itself would have no problem), also pride should not be an issue either. Flanker 01:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are enough biased News Agencies all over and the last thing we need in Wikipedia is us getting personally biased about what news agencies we chose to cite and emphasize.  For instance in this amazing picture of the Chavez march, Why don't you try getting the Chavez march picture from the ABN or whatever institution it came from in the absolute most high-resolution available and find some computer science guys to do some image processing (lots of research going on about that at many universities) on it and find out if it has been edited?   Anyone Pro-Chavez and Anti-Chavez KNOWS the Journalism ethics of VTV, ABN, etc as well as the private media outlets, so I think Wikipedia should be a tool where we constantly take the center of the stage and tell the story BOTH sides are not telling.  You don't even need Adobe Photoshop CS2 to add 'redness' around in the streets and how convenient for them to release a mediocre quality picture to the public.  Images are powerful. Remember that AP image several of columns of smoke rising up in Lebanon due to Israeli air-strikes that turned out to be fake? Some video-blogger caught that. That is what needs to be done over here, and not just the pictures but all the facts and characters involved. This is supposed to NOT resemble newspapers or tv stations.  Ive seen incredible articles on Wikipedia about ongoing events,  especially elections.  This article lacks objectivity. --72.200.2.51 03:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of Chaviztas marching. 

message: Oficial partial results given by the venezuelan CNE (national electoral council) are 61% for Chavez against 38% for Rosales with 78% of votes counted. When should results be added? (Antonio.sierra 02:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Results. 

message: It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity. ~Alexander Hamilton --Haizum    μολὼν λαβέ 17:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: 

message: it's silly that the media is reporting this victory by Chavez as a "wide margin", it seems like a biased attempt to diminish the overwhelming victory that occured.  According to Landslide victory, wins of over 60% are historically called "landslides".  We shouldn't follow the media's bias here and call it what it is.  i'm not a chavez supporter by the way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.210.129.158 (talk) 02:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a big deal IMO, the numbers speak for themselves JRSP 02:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: wide margin

message: I've just modified the table to format refs footnote style as the rest of the article. I also checked refs, replaced some dead links and added a note to the last two rows JRSP 19:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Polls section

message: There's a section listing the various international observers, but nowhere does it say whether or not these observers deemed the election "free and fair."  Would you be able to locate this information, JRSP?  It's rather difficult to find anything in English. -- WGee 09:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, not that it would make any practical difference, but would it be possible to find the results with 100% of the polling stations counted?  Then the article would look a tad more professional and refined. -- WGee 09:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There are some preliminary reports from int'l observers but definitive reports usually take some time. Regarding the results, there are still 1% of votes to be tallied from overseas manual polling stations. These are the last results but I wouldn't update until we have the 100%. Patience, everyone was in Xmas vacation :-) JRSP 13:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Election observers 

message: The description of Chavez's campaign platform is quite vague, and the inclusion of Chavez's unsubstantive, anti-US rhetoric does not provide any insight into his proposed policies.  The description of Rosales's platform is much more detailed, but some statements are still rather vague, and the section omits his stance on several important issues.  For example, what did he propose to do about Venezuela's state-owned companies, particularly in the oil sector?  Did he want to fully or partially privitize some of them or re-structure them?  Did he want to drastically cut government spending and lower taxes?  Et cetera.  Anyway, you know the issues better than I do JRSP, and since I can't speak Spanish, perhaps you could find some more information about their platforms?  Sorry to burden you so much, but you're the only Spanish-speaker who is heavily involved in this article right now.  Flanker, unfortunately, has markedly reduced his activity on Wikipedia since the Chavez fiasco. -- WGee 09:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Chávez platform was basically deepening what he has been doing until now and Rosales's was rather vague indeed, basically the Mi Negra card. Rosales needed to get a lot of votes from low-income classes so he avoided speaking of cutting gov spending or privatization of basic industries and in fact he promised to go on with the misiones. I agree the article needs some work, I'm glad you're interested in it; let me see what I can get. JRSP 13:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Campaign platforms 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified