Talk:Abrenes apriņķis

message: I don't really want to wade into this argument, but... well... I will! "Pytalovo" is not a "historic Russian name" but etymologically Baltic ("Pietālava"), and the contention that it "was always" Russian is absolutely false -- see the German linguist Bielenstein's studies of the area in the 19th C or Toporov on toponyms; anyway "Abrene," like "Jaunlatgale," is a newfangled apellation. To distill the question, one can say that the area was russified whilst part of Pskov gubernya, in a place that was always a point of friction between Balts and Slavs, eventually and roughly along the line of a slight ridge (running between that part of the Abrene district still in Latvia and that part now illegally annexed to Russia). The ethnographic question and the legal argument must be separated to make sense of it. If we speak of linguistic and cultural space, then it's a complex question -- if we speak of ethnographical determinations, then the border was most definitely drawn east of that slight ridge ("Viļakas valnis"), for reasons I won't get into here. To quote Edgars Andersons (Latvijas vēsture 1914-1920, p. 606): "Especially in the north, the Russians had agreed to the Latvians' strategic demands, not complaining about the ethnographic principle having been disregarded. Several pagasti [civil parishes] were completely Russian." The town of Jaunlatgale/Abrene/Pytalovo itself did not exist until 1919. If we speak of politics and international law, then the area was stolen outright, by Russia (the RSFSR). A common misconception on the Latvian side is that "the Abrene district" was majority "Latvian" prior to annexation -- that's simply not so, because the "Abrene district" (not "region") was split (at least) twice, and the part annexed to Russia was always (by that I mean during the existence of the Latvian nation-state) majority "Russian" (read "russified," and by that I mean "culturally" or "linguistically"). If you study the demographics in the last century, then you shall find that the civil parish of Viļaka (to the west of that ridge) was 89% ethnically Latvian, whilst the parishes to the east (Linava and Purvmala) -- annexed to the RSFSR, now the Russian Federation -- were 3% and 8% ethnically Latvian respectively. Ethnicity, however -- or, to be precise, ethnic identity -- was not, is not, and never was the sole determining factor for frontiers. When the negotiations setting the border were concluded (the border wasn't actually finalized until 7 April 1923), fairly large communities of ethnic Russians and Latvians were left on the "wrong" side in different places (at Drisa-Sebeža, for example, 29 100 Latvians were left on the Russian side); where later legality is concerned, what is now Pytalovo was most certainly annexed illegally (and if anybody has any arguments to the contrary, I'd love to hear them!). We are talking about an area that was very small by population and backward by economic development -- the town of Abrene (Pytalovo) itself, for instance, in 1935, consisted of churches, 114 dwellings (primarily single-story houses without indoor plumbing), 109 shops, two elementary schools and one Russian language secondary school -- the total population in 1935 was 1242, including 484 Latvians; 52,4% of the population was ethnically Russian, 38,6% ethnically Latvian. The Russian language school was built in the interbellum Republic -- in fact, Latvian nationalists blame the Republic for hastening russification by offering cultural autonomy. An illustration of the complexity is the fact that most of the Latvians in the northernmost civil parish, Kacēnu pagasts, came from the so-called "Lauru kolonija" -- part of the Latvian nation stranded in Estonia, now part of the Estonian territory taken by Russia and home of the Setu people. Pēteris Cedriņš 22:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please write the Setu & Setumaa articles. mikka (t) 22:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some comments, with a hopeful attempt at "neutrality"... 

message: I took the liberty of deleting this flag, since the article reads neutral-enough to me and there have been no substantial edits related to POV for some months....FRS 20:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted POV Dispute flag 

message: I suspect that we are not going to agree about the etymology, Ghirlandajo, but there is considerable material on the Baltic toponyms in the area (by prominent Russian linguists, too, like Toporov), and the area was definitely inhabited by Finno-Ugric and Baltic speakers before it was inhabited by Slavs, though it was an area of friction. The German linguist August Bielenstein (not a Latvian, so no axe to grind!) made a study of the people in the region in the 19th C -- they still spoke Latvian, though many had been converted to Orthodoxy. See my post above, please. The terra "Tolowa, Tholowa" is mentioned as early as 1224, and again by the Arab geographer Ibn el-Wardi (d. 1349) as "Atlawa." In 1255, Pope Alexander IV writes of Tolowe et Selonie (Tolowa and Selonia). The name likely derives from the river Tolva (Tolba, Toloba), which flows into Lake Peipus; according to Vasmer the root is the Finno-Ugric tulva (tributary, flood). What I wrote earlier was indeed imprecise, since "Pietālava" is modern Latvian (approximating the actual meaning); to be precise, the Latgalians absorbed and transmuted the Finno-Ugric -- the word was also applied to the lake, which was long the border between Tolowa and Pskov. --Pēteris Cedriņš 22:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor edit -- origin of the name "Pytalovo" 

message: I made another minor edit, and I hope it does not start a minor war... in my opinion, the use of "reannexed" with reference to the war and 1944 is misleading, since Latvia was occupied in 1940 (not making mention of the occupation but saying "reannexed" is confusing, since Latvia was occupied prior to the war -- that it was occupied by the Soviets, the Nazis, and then the Soviets again does not re-annexation make, since it was never formally de-annexed and did not regain its independence). The terms "Latvian minority" and "ethnic Russians" were unclear, too -- is a Russified Latvian an "ethnic Russian," and does "minority" refer to ethnicity? The Russians in Abrene were Latvian citizens, and unless somebody goes to the trouble of explaining what that means it is senseless to parse their ethnicity. I added some particulars (e.g., on the deportations) and clarified the fact that it was not the entire district but its eastern civil parishes that were annexed. --Pēteris Cedriņš 23:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: So we should repeat the same in articles on every Soviet town? Firstly, your changes were by no means minor. Secondly, you introduced a heavily POV phrasing: "annexation" and "russification" of the territory that was Russian for more than a millenium. You also fail to explain a mysterious phrase on Russia still refusing to recognize Latvia's independence. Therefore I revert. Wikipedia is not a Latvian propagandist machine. --Ghirlandajo 01:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the point of having this article is to provide information on issues relevant to the dispute; the russification of the region is very obviously very relevant. "Annexation," Ghirlandajo, is a wee bit more neutral than "liberation" -- the territory was annexed to the RSFSR in a very murky way by a totalitarian occupying power (an example of how murky is that the actual territory annexed exceeds in size the territory formally annexed) -- how you can call the deportation and repression of a population "liberation" is beyond me. "Russian for more than a millennium" is a ludicrous contention; you apparently are not paying attention to the distinctions I am attempting to make between "ethnic" and "national" -- following your logic, all of Latvia would be "Russian," Finland would be Russian and Swedish and might be "liberated" by an invasion, etc. See what I wrote on this page some months ago. For your information, some of the ethnic Russians from Abrene are Latvian citizens to this day, having fled Abrene because of the repressive measures that followed the annexation of the territory. I didn't write any "mysterious" phrases -- see the history. The article is quite poor and needs major expansion, in my opinion, and I tried to bring up some of the things that ought to be in it on this page, at length. I am well aware of the fact that Wikipedia is not "a Latvian propagandist machine," but neither is it a Russian propagandist machine. I am going to revert your changes for the time being, once again, and I will try to expand the article over the next few days. Since we obviously have very different viewpoints, it would be far more constructive if you attempted to discuss the specifics, so that we might reach a compromise, instead of lashing out. --Pēteris Cedriņš 02:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another minor edit... 

message: I would suggest that this discussion would go better if we eliminated any "position" where we simply repeat the stated position of either of the current governments (including Putin's donkey ears), and just dealt with the facts. If we want to talk about "historical" inhabitants of an area, how far back do we want to go? There were the Finno-Ugrian tribe before the Balts... there were the Balts all over what is now western Russia before the Russians--Volga is a Baltic, not Russian, word. Much closer to recent times, and to the point in question, the Soviet Union's own documents, unearthed in Russian archives, discuss the Abrene region refering to it as being Latvian and refering to all the place names by their Latvian names. Given the choice between Soviet documents in Russian archives and PR statements by the Russian foreign ministry (or Putin's donkey ears), I would believe the documents first. (And a position that whatever is going on does not apply to Russia because whatever was done was done by the Soviet Union is specious at best. The territory was annexed into the Russian SSR, not some independent Soviet protectorate. Nor has Russia done anything to distance herself from her Soviet past--quite the contrary, but that's another discussion.) Peters 20:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tidbit, 18th century scholarship describes the inhabitants as Russified Latgalians. The recounting of various events between the wars indicates that whether or not the inhabitants were Russophones, they still closely connected to their ancient Latvian heritage. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 17:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  What do the documents, not politicians, say? 

message: Would it be possible to have a map made of the territories that were lost to the Baltic States from the national borders set out in the 1920 treaties? 
This would really help in a visual sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.246.4.30 (talk • contribs).
:I agree, and tagged this with . Punkmorten 13:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Three years later and this article could really do with a map 95.177.127.26 (talk) 11:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmmm, 4 years now. I've been doing some research on the topic and need a good map. Can't promise, but at least in the works. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 17:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map? 

message: Just to be clear, was the district divided by the Soviets along the Viļaka ridge?  Did the ridge become the border? It's not clear from the article. Indisciplined (talk) 19:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viļaka ridge 

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thread_title:  External links modified