Talk:Erich Hoepner

message: It doesn't make sense! Hoepner couldn't have been present at the Bendlerblock that night of 20th July 1944, otherwise he would've been shot on the spot. It wasn't in Fromm's best interest to let somebody survive because they knew about his passive involvment. --89.177.43.141 (talk) 18:10, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoepner's presence at Bendlerblock 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Did a long CE then got an edit conflict so apols. RV as desired. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 18:38, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorted out a few sfn errors.Keith-264 (talk) 19:25, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  CE 

message: I've elaborated on the changes to the article immediately above. I was not able to confirm some of the materials previously present in the article (700 tanks, etc). 
I have questions about some of the recent edits: diff. For example, the quote from Hoepner's order was removed with the edit summary: "Totally lacking a reference. Page number needed...". The reference was indeed provided for Hoepner's quote, including a page number: 
*...Every military action must be guided in planning and execution by an iron will to exterminate the enemy mercilessly and totally. In particular, no adherents of the present Russian-Bolshevik system are to be spared.
For context, please see: Crimes of State Past and Present: Government-Sponsored Atrocities and and International Legal Responses edited by David M. Crowe: 
*"On 30 March 1941, Hitler told his senior military commanders that he "wanted to see the impending war against the Soviet Union (...) as a war of extermination (...). Many Wehrmacht leaders...." Hoepner's quote follows. 
Same in Burleigh who is cited in the article, but from a different book The Third Reich: A New History: 
*"These [pre-Barbarossa] orders fed down the chain by senior commanding officers several of whom unreflectively elided Jews with Bolshevism. Thus, on 2 May 1941, General Erich Hoepner..." His quote follows. 
A number of other sources make the same connection between the plans for the war of extermination and Hoepner's directive: 
*"Many field commanders immediately echoed this in their own preinvasion directives. General Hoepner (...) advised his troops... In Hitler's Empire: How the Nazis Ruled Europe by Mark Mazower.
*"Another general who justified the coming was on the same grounds as Hitler was General Erich Hoepner..." The same quote follows. In The Policies of Genocide edited by Gerhard Hirschfeld. Etc. 
I'm not sure what the objection is.
The following edit summary likewise lacks clarity: "No biographical notability asserted. What's the immediate relationship?". The material removed was: 
*The staff and detachments 2 and 3 of Einsatzgruppe A, one of the mobile killing squads following the Wehrmacht into the occupied Soviet Union, were brought up to the Luga district with assistance from the army. "The movement of Einsatzgruppe A—which the army intended to use in Leningrad—was effected in agreement with Panzer Group 4 and at their express wish," noted Franz Walter Stahlecker, the commander of Einsatzgruppe A. Stahlecker described Wehrmacht's cooperation as "generally very good," and "in certain cases, as for example, with Panzer Group 4 under the command of General Hoepner, extremely close, one might say even warm." (emphasis mine). 
The immediate relationship was the close cooperation between Panzer Group 4 and Einsatzgruppe A. I'm not sure what "biographical notability" is, but this material is certainly relevant to Hoepner's bio. This objection reminds me of the discussion at Talk:Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb#Leeb and Einsatzgruppe A, which I could not understand there either. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: All of which is fine as there isn't any real debate on the nature of the war in the east as propagandized by the regime. What all the provided references fail to provide is an actual tie between the assertion made in the article and Hoepner himself. To connect that many dots is synthesis on your part. To include the aforementioned sections requires reliable sources actually making that assertion. To simply lump in Hoepner with broad brush is not biographically relevant nor appropriate for Wikipedia. The discussion of on-the-ground cooperation between individuals of the Einsatzgruppe assigned to the same area of operations of Panzer Group 4 and individual elements of that Group fails to make a substantive biographical connection. Also, von Leeb is something I'm going to get back around to, when I have time. Both articles fail on the same merits. LargelyRecyclable (talk) 09:49, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure that I understand how this material is . Hoepner commanded PG 4, did he not? In the EG A material, he is mentioned by name.  Please also help me understand why the Hoepner May 1941 quote was removed. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:26, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent edit

message: Since there's been no response, I restored the changes with some revisions and additions; please see diff. Please let me know if there are any concerns. 
Separately, as there have been a number of attempts (1; 2; 3) to remove mentions of PG 4's implementation of the Commissar Order, here are sources that I added to the article: 
*"The Commissar Order was executed with particular diligence at Hoepner's Panzergruppe" 
*"172 commissars had been executed by July 19" [by Panzer Group 4]
They provide details and specific dates / numbers. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Commissar order

message: I reverted changes to the lead that were introduced in this edit, as the previous version better summarises the body of the article. Also, the content is problematic; sample:
*...During Operation Barbarossa Hoepner commanded the 3rd and 4th Panzer Groups. While in command of the 4th Panzer Group, Hoepner's troops came within sight of the Kremlin during Operation Typhoon...
Hoepner did not command PG 3, to the best of my knowledge. "...within sights of the Kremlin..." is not discussed in the body of the article. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:08, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: "His wife, daughter, son, sister and brother were sent to Ravensbrück concentration camp." Cannot be correct, this camp was for women; please revise per RS source. Kierzek (talk) 23:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for pointing this out; I made the revision with this edit. Sources: Family Punishment in Nazi Germany: Sippenhaft, Terror and Myth by Robert Loeffel (already in use in the article) & Ravensbruck: Life and Death in Hitler's Concentration Camp for Women by Sarah Helm. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:57, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ravensbrück sentence 

message: I suggest that the German ranks be consistent within the article. There is lieutenant, General of the Cavalry and Generalmajor at present. The lack of equivalence between the US or British Major General and the German Generalmajor (the same applies to Generalleutnant) mitigates against anglicising German ranks, so I suggest rendering them all in the German with US (or British) equivalents in parentheses after them. This has been common practice in the past on en WP. Cheers, Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 07:34, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the feedback. My preference is to go with what the underlying articles are named. They are, for example, General of the Cavalry (Germany) and Generalmajor. I did, however, pipe "Generalmajor" to Generalmajor#Generalmajor of the Wehrmacht to be more specific. Hope this works. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rank consistency 

message: Seems that his father was that Kurt Hoepner (1858-1925), a prussian medical officer and (finally) Generaloberarzt (surely not at Erich Hoepner's birth, at age 28). dhm.de also says that his father was a Sanitätsoffizier, medical officer. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 11:16, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Father: "General" Kurt Hoepner ? 

message: Michael Burleigh writes the order from Hoepner as follows:
 
On the German page for Hoepner, historian Förster writes the order as follows (presumably in original German):
 
In what world should "Zerstrümmung" be translated as something other than fragmentation, disintegration or comminution, the smashing or the shattering? Even if Michael Burleigh had gone with the interpretation based on the word zerstrümmern, he would get to smash sth. to break sth. to pound to shatter, to break sth. into splinters, to break to smithereens. But I am not trying to introduce original research here. The fact is the secondary source which Michael Burleigh quotes is in Ueberschar and Wette (eds), Der deutsche Uberfall auf die Sowjetunion p. 258. This secondary source does not offer the interpretation Burleigh does. Therefore, I would suggest the quote should be changed to the original and correct translation, or the article should say something like "Burleigh writes" or "according to Burleigh", because Burleigh's translation of the quote is not that of a secondary-source scholarly consensus if Förster, cited on this page, does not adopt the same interpretation as Burleigh and the other secondary source contradicts Burleigh's words.--Justforthisthing (talk) 20:09, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attributing the quote of Hoepner to Michael Burleigh's interpretation 

message: "[Hitler] stated that "wanted to see the impending war against the Soviet Union conducted not according to the military principles, but as a war of extermination" against an ideological enemy, whether military or civilian. Many Wehrmacht leaders, including Hoepner, echoed the sentiment."
Hoepner issued an order to his troops instructing them to treat the "loyal population" fairly, adding that "individual acts of sabotage should simply be charged to communists and Jews"
What is going on here? --Justforthisthing (talk) 19:25, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction