Talk:Appearance of the ancient Egyptians/Archive 1

message: Don't we have enough racialist articles here? - Jeeny Talk 22:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but the article itself is ludicrous in the extreme. Some of the claims in it are pure POV with no basis in reality. One of the administrators should just delete this obviously biased piece. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.158.191.125 (talk • contribs). 05:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a fine point. Even the "experts" are not sure; there are only assumptions as of now. DNA and cranial measurements, etc. are not anywhere close to figuring it out...yet. Oh, well. - Jeeny Talk 17:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Louisvillain isn't "reasoning", he's shouting without supplying a reason.--Urthogie 00:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Urthogie, Louisvillian is right in asking for clarity. Even if your intention of spliting the article was good, the fact is that you like doing thing uncontrolled. But you will not continue cheating people. I am very busy with the French WP about the interpretation of Kmt, but I will be closely watching this article. And as soon as I will have time, I will contribute for the section "Afrocentrism and Egyptology". Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 20:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why was this created?

message: Jeeny, what you are saying about Diop is not true. Diop got a lot of samples for test from mummies found by Mariette. What he did failed to get was a piece of the mummy of Rameses from the Cairo museum. Please, find in this quotation what you need to know: "Melanin Dosage Test
In practice it is possible to determine directly the skin colour and hence the ethnic affiliations of the ancient Egyptians by microscopic analysis in the laboratory; I doubt if the sagacity of the researchers who have studied the question has overlooked the possibility.
Melanin (eumelanin), the chemical body responsible for skin pigmentation, is, broadly speaking, insoluble and is preserved for millions of years in the skins of fossil animals.20 There is thus all the more reason for it to be readily recoverable in the skins of Egyptian mummies, despite a tenacious legend that the skin of mummies, tainted by the embalming material, is no longer susceptible of any analysis.21 Although the epidermis is the main site of the melanin, the melanocytes penetrating the derm at the boundary between it and the epidermis, even where the latter has mostly been destroyed by the embalming materials, show a melanin level which is non-existent in the white-skinned races. The samples I myself analyzed were taken in the physical anthropology laboratory of the Mus'ee de l'Homme in Paris off the mummies from the Marietta excavations in Egypt.22 The same method is perfectly suitable for use on the royal mummies of Thutmoses III, Seti I and Ramses II in the Cairo Museum, which are in an excel state of preservation. For two years past I have been vainly begging the curator of the Cairo Museum for similar samples to analyze. No more than a few square millimetres of skin would be required to mount a specimen, the preparations being a few um in thickness and lightened with ethyl benzoate. They can be studied by natural light or with ultra-violet lighting which renders the melanin grains fluorescent.
Either way let us simply say that the evaluation of melanin level by microscopic examination is a laboratory method which enables us to classify the ancient Egyptians unquestionably among the black races.".--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 10:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jeeny, maybe I did not get you well. Are you asking for a reference? Actually the link to the quotation I made above is not available. Maybe you are refering to the same problem. Sorry if I misunderstood you.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 13:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you Taharqa! I hope now Jeeny is satisfied.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 14:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, sorry Luka, it's been awhile, and I don't remember exactly what I said or did to start this topic. I do agree with Diop. Maybe it was because he was denied to perform the test on the mummies, so there is no evidence for their race or color. Without the melanin test to confirm, it's speculation. Not that I am denying that the test would reveal the results Diop expects, just that it's not known, and we can't make assumptions without legitimate proof. - Jeeny Talk 19:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, OK, Taharqa, you're correct. I read the conversation on this page and saw what Luka wrote about me and didn't understand why he pointed me out, nor what he was referring to. I was thinking of the mummies Diop was denied to do the test on, such as Rameses, and a couple of other famous Ancient Egyptians and presumed those were the mummies being talked about. That was what my latest response was to, in this section of the talk page. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did read the source, and understand. But still don't know what I said before for this conversation about me not getting it. <shrug> Good to see you, BTW. :) - Jeeny Talk 16:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks, Taharqa. I remember now my error. I did assume that Diop wasn't allowed to perform the tests on any of the mummies in the Cairo Museum. I just wanted to be accurate, but I was wrong. I know differently now. I just forgot about this article, as I'm having a horrible time on other articles with racialism, and POV twisting. I'll refrain from going further, because I've been warned about calling people a racist, even though it's obvious, and they've just about said so themselves. I'll just say, the "Aryans" are out and about and growing on Wikipedia. :(  - Jeeny Talk 04:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, yes I do know. LOL. I'm about to lose it myself now. And you know how "cool" I seemed to be before, trying to help you stay neutral. LOL. Now I'm having the hard time. I'm not a violent person at all, but the thoughts that cross my mind scare me sometimes. I've been trying to work on silly stuff, like the Big Brother show. LOL. Yes, I like the show and my friends think I'm bonkers. Even though it's supposedly a "reality show" it gets me away from reality. LOL. Oh well. It may be good if I get blocked. Many times I think I should take those other articles off my watch list, but I can't because the number of "them" are ganging up on one or two others, if you know what I mean. :( - Jeeny Talk 04:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On melanin test

message: I feel the "research" section should be renamed to something like "academic view" etc..(?)Taharqa 03:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Research

message: The following sentence which I added (to the disucssion about km.t) was deleted by Taharqa, who pointed out quite correctly that I had no reference.  I don't intend to pursue the matter, but perhaps someone with better access to the relevant books and journals would be able to source this statement and re-add it, and thus throw another fact into the debate.  Best wishes BrainyBabe 15:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Egypt for millenia depended on the flooding of the Nile to bring fertility to the land, and the resulting soil was very black.
^Not sure why this is relevant to the correct translation of 'Km.t' tho, which literally means 'black country'. Even the word "land" is emphasized by "ta", as in Ta seti, land of the Bow or Ta Khent, land of the beginning, or Ta deshret, Red Land.. Black land would be something to the effect of "Kem Ta"? The 't' in Km.t is actually silent so literally Kem.t translates to "Black (something) or (something) Black".. "Something" being indicative of a noun (person, place, or thing).. Given the context of a place, obviously it would be the "Black place" or "black nation', community, settlement, whatever. Land is a thing. In order to even logically include the word into the translation it would have to read "Land of the Black"(feminine singular)..Taharqa 01:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

text: BrainyBabe, according to Herodotus, the land of Egypt is black (Histories, § 12). Plutarcus agrees with him (Isis and Osiris, § 32). This Balck soil come from the interior of Africa. This means that it not only the Egyptian soil which is black. Even the soil of Ethiopia, etc. Eurocentric Egyptologists (like Pierre Montet, Géographie de l'Egypte, première partie, Paris, 1957, p. 4) think that it is because of the black soil that Egypt is called Black (land) [here I agree with Taharqa that the translation is not good, it must be Black country]. Aboubacry Moussa Lam thinks that it is because of the color of the inhabitants which is also black (Aboubacry Moussa Lam, "L'Egypte ancienne et l'Afrique", in Maria R. Turano et Paul Vandepitte, sous la direction de, Pour une histoire de l'Afrique, Lecce, 2003, p. 50). Here we have examples with Black Africa or Ethiopia. But all these are interpretations. The translation must be Black country. Do you want to add the reference to the soil? I gave you the sources. But I lean towards what Taharqa said. His arguments are solide. Besides, there is already the reference to the black soil in Black land. --Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 16:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Taharqa, I agree with you that this Ham is a person. Pierre Montet I already quoted states that Kmt-O49 (the Egyptian name for Egypt as a country) is also one of the many names of the capital of the nome jh (or kȝ) km "The Black Cow" in Lower-Egypt (p.119). Now if we reason a bit we will remember that the Black Cow is a name for Osirus. Plutarcus and even Herodotus refer to the incarnation of Osirus as a Black Cow. It is Osirus as the River Nile, according to Plutarcus, who makes everything turn black: the soil (symbol of Isis) and the hair of the Egyptians. Plutarcus states also that Osirus had a black complexion. Osirus is the ancestor of the Black people. Seth (the Red) of the non-Black people, and in particular of the Semites, according to the Egyptian mythology reported by Plutarcus. Of Isis, Mayassis says that she is Black, a "Nubian". Is not the first Egyptian nome of Upper-Egypt, thus of all Egypt, "TA Seti: Nubia" (Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar)? Eurocentric scholars are clearly on the wrong side. Behind this name of Kemet-O49 stands Osirus, the Black, the King of Egypt, the husband of Isis, herself a Black lady; both of them progenitors of the Egyptians, who were black (Herodotus), and of all the Blacks. --Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 17:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Black soil, black land

message: Lanternix, do you have a problem with the article as it stands now or do you have something to explain to the other editors? Please come here to discuss the issue!--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 18:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question to Lanternix

message: Somebody is saying that this section contains original research. Did he read the books of Lam and Damiano-Appia or listen to the interviews of Diop and Davidson mentioned here?--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 23:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I put tags in front of the statements that were either pov or sounded like original research before they were reverted by the sockpuppet or you. They need to be checked for neutrality because they are trying to advance the afrocentric position which is not accepted by the Egyptologists. It's not enough to say this what he says. If he claims something not supported by scientists, then it needs to be removed. Egyegy 23:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Can you stop making personal attacks? Egyegy 23:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alleged Eurocentrism in Egyptology

message: "Egyptians are often portrayed in impossible shapes and colors.  For example, in some paintings they are green."
:I thought only the deceased are shown in green? DrKiernan 10:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Green skin color 

message: I think before we proceed into the discussion the two articles need to be merged. The same editors ar e discussing the same points on two different pages. I suggest we revert to Ancient Egypt and race or Ancient Egypt and race (controversies). Muntuwandi 15:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Muntuwandi, I have been very busy with the French Wikipedia, so not knowing always how are things going on here. I agree with the idea of merging the two articles. Do Louisvillian and Urthogie know about the idea? What are they saying? But they have to merge as soon as possible in order to respond more easily to questions people are now raising.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 22:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: It's true that this question deserves examination. 
The Question of Negrid Admixture
Egypt was neither very far away from Negrid areas nor isolated. Egyptians often expanded towards the South for various reasons (business, ressources, slave trade, political expansion etc.) On the other hand attracted the rich country inhabitants of the South in the rich land of the Lower Nile. Its not surprising that even in the primitive times (Badari-Culture) Negrids appear in Egypt (STROUHAL 1971), which numbers decreased later but rose again in the time of the New Empire (JUNKER 1927) and because of the Arabian slave trade. Negrid immigration determined the anthropological history of Nubia. In Egypt itself was the proportion of Negrids much lower, in contrast to the claims of DIOP (1962, 1967) about a predominantely Negrid character of the Old Egyptian civilisation. After the anthropological record we can estimate it about 1 to 5 percent, together with a proportion of mixed individuals.
MoritzB 04:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Were there any black people in Egypt?