Talk:Water heating

message: The article asserts the following: "The inner tank of the Water heater is the single most important feature of a water heater. The best heaters have a copper container. The second most important feature may be the type of heating element. The cartridge elements score over tubular elements."
Does anyone have any idea why this might be the case? I would assume a copper tank would conduct a lot of heat, and be far less efficient than, say, a plastic tank... ? GBMorris (talk) 13:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copper Tanks and Type of Heating Element 

message: This statement (below) seems rather biased and contradictory to much of the advice out there, but at the same time does provide a useful tidbit of information.  I'm not sure how it should be rephrased though, perhaps something like "Some claim that..."?
"The T&P (Temperature and Pressure) relief valve should not be tested, as it may not stop leaking if you pop it open."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.160.38.65 (talk) 13:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your information about testing T&P valves. A WP:RS must be found before adding it to the article, but at least some of us appreciate sharing your knowledge here.  --Reify-tech (talk) 02:14, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  T&P Valve Testing 

message: T&P Valve - does it ever need replacement?
:If it breaks, yes. Carcharoth 07:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  T&P Valve 

message: The topic of tankless efficiency came up, I did some numbers:
I have a 130L tank. It is heated to 50C. The water comes in at 15C and needs 19MJ to fill.  It is wrapped in R3 insulation with a surface area of 1.5m so it loses 0.5W per delta deg C. Thus it loses 17W of heat when hot. That's 13 days worth of storage equivalent to 1 heating cycle.
Where do people get the efficiency claim from?  Tankless water heater manufacturers?  --njh 00:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: R-3 is about 2.5W m^-2 K^-1, so your tank will be losing 1.5*2.5*(50 - 18) = 120W, not 17W.  This maps to 2 days, not 13.  So if you use 1 tank/day, then over 2 days you heat three tanks, efficiency is about 70% of a tankless solution.  As you use less water, tankless systems become even "more efficient".  As you use more water, efficiency equalizes, but then a tank becomes increasingly pointless... mdf 14:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Tankless is either more or less efficient, and this is decided on physical principles, not where one lives.  Money, logistics, the consequences of a failure, and the like are important, but unreleated matters re: thermal efficiency (the subject of this section).  mdf 21:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And of course, people who make and sell water tanks are selfless dedicates who would never consider, even briefly, promoting their schemes for merely pecuniary purposes.  mdf 21:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Going from R-3 to R-6 goes from 2 days to 4 days in the above example, and you've hit ~80% of a tankless's thermal efficiency (everything else held the same).  To hit 90%, we need to go to R-12.  I've always wondered why just about everything made in North America -- houses, cars, water tanks, etc -- are woefully inefficient.  Why not just wrap the tanks in R-20 or more insulation and be done with it?  Ah, the Mysteries of the Market ... mdf 21:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: R3 is an absurdly low estimate.  Most tanked NG/LP water heaters are R-8, and tanked electric water heaters are R-16 to R-25.  Due to the low standby losses for tanked electric water heaters, and seeing as how tankless units clog up with scale and lose their efficiency, the benefits of tankless (for those who are currently using tanked electric water heaters) are greatly exaggerated.  Moving from tanked NG to tankless NG would also give uninspiring savings.  The only tankless conversions that make sense are tanked P -> tankless P, or tanked E/tanked P -> tankless NG.  SolarCoordinates (talk) 09:49, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tankless more efficient? 

message: Should the article mention the sacrificial anode rod?
: Yes.  Also unions, fill and drain valves, sedimentation and periodic flushing (tank-type), costs, typical lives, etc.  Keep writing!   :-)   129.237.114.171 14:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia isn't a how-to site.  You can find DIY and repair advice at other sites with your favorite search engine. —QuicksilverT @ 22:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anode rod? 

message: Since this is something that does vary a lot around the world, it would be great to have lots of photos, showing typical installations in many different countries. 69.87.200.214 02:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  photos 

message: I have uploaded a file of two commercial tankless water heaters working in parallel. If anyone sees a need for this image, please include in the article.
Image Description: Two Rannai brand, tankless water heaters in a commercial setting. Each unit is rated 199,000 BTU and the two work in parallel, heating water to 185 degrees Fahrenheit. Located on a dairy farm and provide hot water for cleaning milking equipment.
--Behrat (talk) 03:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tankless Water Heater Image 

message: I've made a start on trying to make the article region-neutral since it was (and mostly remains) very US-centric in terminology. I hope I'm not just biasing it in the direction of a UK-centric terminology.
I suggest the term instantaneous may be a good neutral substitute for tankless, and storage for tank-type.
Is the abbreviation DHW OK for hot potable water in domestic uses? I know this is UK usage but does it make sense left of the pond? Any better shorthand to distinguish it from water heated for space heating (which is in a closed system and usually contains chemical additives to prevent corrosion)?
--John Stumbles 22:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 5 years later and the article is still written around US practices. I'm not sure it even makes sense to have a generalised global article on such a broad subject. Separate articles such as Water heating in North America, Water heating in Europe, Water heating in Australasia etc might be a better way to go. --Ef80 (talk) 22:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Six further years and it claims the term “geyser” as being “Southern Africa only”.  The gas-fired one in my grandmother’s kitchen in Great Yarmouth, UK, was always referred to as the geyser. Mr Larrington (talk) 16:30, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded.  I had at least one grandmother with a "geyser", and I had a similar device possibly named "Ascot".  Wall-mounted, gas heated, automatically lit from a pilot light when needed, with I suppose a heat-transfer coil above.  I support the idea of having a common section applicable in many countries, with other parts for locality-specific stuff. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 19:53, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Region-neutral terminaology 

message: This article goes into a lot of US-specific detail e.g. installation practice which I think does not belong in this article. (I'm not sure where it should go - is Wikipedia the place for it? In the UK we have a wiki offshoot of the news:uk.d-i-y newsgroup where this level of detail would go.)
--John Stumbles 22:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split up article? 

message: It would be interesting to have a section on the history of hot water heaters. -- Beland 03:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that. Chendy (talk) 14:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  History expansion request 

message: What the hell is DHW?  Can we have less jargon for us non-experts please. 87.112.27.147 00:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is defined in the second paragraph. It probably wouldn't hurt to define it again later in the article.  It is acceptable usage in the US and apparently also in the UK. --VMS Mosaic 00:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DHW? 

message: Could someone with the knowledge add a History section to this (like when DHW appeared, perhaps older systems)? That's what I was primarily looking for in this article. Hrcolyer (talk) 15:52, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: What is the difference between conventinally vented vs. direct vented vs. power vented?  How does the choice of venting impact installation cost for new systems vs. retrofit / replace?  Does the venting strategy or length of venting have an effect on the efficiency of the system?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.212.99.11 (talk) 20:57, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Venting Gas Water Heaters 

message: It would be nice to see Units sticking to SI. The article changes from degrees C to degrees F, BTU to kW, gallons and gph - US or Imperial - who knows? Very little of the information makes sense without converting at least something to another unit of measure.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.48.109.206 (talk) 23:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think both metric and non-metric measurements are useful, but more consistency is definitely needed. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 12:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency in Units of measure 

message: I edit the site to indicate a revision or definition of the vessel/containers used to store hot water, the use of the word tank, while not unusual, hardly defines the complex vessel/container used to store hot water. Hot water heater vessels are in fact process containers that while heating water are also pressurized, a little more complex than just calling it a tank. Best regards...Tankman  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.74.240.97 (talk) 17:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitions 

message: I think the article should refer to the economics of using a 24/7 water heater. I guess this may sound strange to people living in "cool countries", where a water heater (assuming a non-tankless design) is usually always on (and heating is regulated by some thermostat). But does it always make economical sense to keep water hot at all times, even late at night or during day-time when nobody is at home? Would it not make sense to let the water cool down when not used, assuming the reheating wait time is acceptable? Odedee (talk) 00:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That may be, but in Israel it is universally accepted to keep water heating off unless someone expects to require hot water shortly. Most Israeli homes use solar water heating, so (usually) electric water heaters are off throughout Summer, and are used only in winter. Even then, it is on an as-needed basis, not 24/7 (meaning if someone plans on taking a shower, they would turn on the heater a half hour earlier). I am curious whether this practice is based on good economics, or not. Odedee (talk) 09:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  24/7? 

message: One section begins "Tankless water heaters [...] are also available and gaining in popularity," while the much longer "Disadvantages" section (~1000 (!) vs. ~500 words) seems to imply, by relative length, that disadvantages far outweigh advantages. Either this is false, or the popularity is due to some other fact not mentioned in the article. The latter is unlikely.
The "Disadvantages" section is inflated by POV or inaccurate statements such as, "[...]electricity. This makes it impossible to include other heat sources, including renewable energy," (renewable electricity generation is common), as well as multiple items items that are essentially the same (more rapid changes in flow temperature for tankless heaters). Second-person language ("you") is also used inappropriately.
Editors should condense the latter section. PaulKishimoto (talk) 17:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV & organization 

message: This article is rife with repetitions; and it has been marked as largely unsourced for almost a year now. I am tempted to pare down this article to about one third its size. Are there any objections? — Sebastian 23:14, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pare down this article? 

message: This article does not touch on the purpose of a deflector within the hot water cylinder design.
For an example of a deflector see: http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=www.range-cylinders.co.uk/pdfs/technical/tribune.pdf&embedded=true#:0.page.11
www.range-cylinders.co.uk/pdfs/technical/tribune.pdf [page 10]
Maybe it is there to improve efficiency by avoiding new high pressure cold water directly contacting the thermostat or maybe it prevents pressursised cold water flow disturbing the stable thermal layer within the cylinder - this is all pure speculation on my part so far and I cannot find a reference to explain it anywhere.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.83.27 (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deflector 

message: One thing that you should consider when deciding upon the type of water heater is whether you live in an area that has a tendency towards various emergency situations that result in your electrical power being out for extended periods of time (e.g. hurricanes, winter storms, etc).  With electrically heated tank type water heaters, if your electrical power is out for a prolonged period of time, you will find that the water will cool off and you will be having cold showers fairly soon.  With a gas heated tank type water heater, it will continue to work just fine without electricity.  With the electrically heated tankless water heaters, if you are taking a shower and the electricity goes off, you are very quickly going to be taking a cold shower.  During hurricanes, the natural gas supply to homes is a lot more likely to remain than the electrical supply, so even you you are without electricity for weeks, you are still very likely to have a natural gas supply.  Even during Katrina with all the flooding, the houses still had natural gas supply (since periodically you would see videos on TV of natural gas bubbling up through the water and on fire).  One other problem with tankless natural gas water heaters is that they still require electricity in order to either provide ignition of the gas or to turn the gas control valve on.  As such, this might also be a concern during periods when your electricity is off.  As far as I've been able to determine, the only water heater that seems to handle most disaster situations is the tank type natural gas heated one.
This is my experience after having gone a week without electricity after Hurricane Ike.  Thanks to the fact that my cooktop and water heater were natural gas powered, I was able to run the rest of my house (minus the central air-conditioner) on a 7.5Kw generator backfeeding the electrical system for the house with only minor inconveniences (i.e. needing a window air-conditioner for cooling the sleeping area of the house).  The 7.5Kw generator was enough to run the refrigerator, freezer, computers, lights, and everything else in the house since cooking and hot water usage was natural gas powered.
This comment is probably not up to the Wiki standards, but perhaps someone can take this information and massage it into an appropriate section for the article.
Grumman581 (talk) 08:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disaster / Emergency Preparedness Considerations 

message: I disagree that Hot water storage tank should be merged into Water heating. Water heating is already to big (e.g. see Talk:Water_heating#Pare_down_this_article.3F). --Glenn (talk) 08:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Water heating perhaps needs some editing. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:44, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  It has been suggested that Hot water storage tank or section be merged into Water heating. Proposed since September 2011 

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message: We need a section and/or article on [[[water system]]]s, with references on the mandatory and recommended temperatures according to the various authorities.
* http://www.wsj.com/articles/burning-question-what-is-the-best-water-temperature-for-your-bath-or-shower-1451931152 Wall Street Jornal
* https://www.google.com.au/search?q=f+to+c+conversion&oq=F+to+C+convert&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j69i64j0l4.10801j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=warm+water+regulations some Australian codes and regulations
**http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/2130/Pn18.pdf 
**http://www.hpw.qld.gov.au/construction/Sustainability/SustainableHousingLaws/Pages/ElectricHotWaterSystemReplacement.aspx
Perhaps not all of the building codes etc need to be summarised, but they should get a mention at least.
The other aspect, of course, is the health implications of warm rather than hot water storage - legionella and the like..
Mixer valves aka tempering valves should also get a mention of course.
And we could even mention some of the fiascos, if we can source them... One of the public hospitals near me installed a warm water system at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars, compelled to by law, but by the time it was ready to be turned on it was (rightly) illegal because of the threat of nasties growing in the storages. They now have thermostat controlled mixer valves, fed by the old system, and are discussing what to do with the new units... they are probably scrap metal, but may be converted to hot water units (new heating elements required and all the brand new wiring totally replaced) as they'll still be a little more energy efficient than the old system (and that would save some very red faces... no, that wouldn't be the real reason, would it?). Andrewa (talk) 01:07, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warm water systems 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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