Talk:Responsibility for the September 11 attacks

message: Citation 88 is in italian, and thus can't be included in an english language article because the vast majority of readers won't be able to use it to verify the authenticity of the claim. (for all we know, it's about pasta...)
Citation 89 seems to come from a dubious source
--00:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations 88 and 89

message: Removed this bit:
:However, facts don't back the ¨poverty spurs terrorism¨ thesis and, like hate crime perpetrators, terrorists do not necessarily have a personal background of poverty. Bin Laden is known to be a wealthy Saudi businessman, and his hijackers have come from the ruling elite rather than from the slums. As the terrorists never have raised agendas for enhanced business ethics in international policy nor done anything that could achieve them, perception has grown that the imperialism thesis belongs to the fog of war, and the hatred that embeds terrorism is more than a consequence of United States foreign policy.
(a) it is unattributed POV analysis
(b) it mischaracterizes the "poverty spurs terrorism" thesis anyway, which does not say "poor people are terrorists".
(c) Also, in fact, many of the hijackers came from middle class backgrounds, definitely not from ruling class backgrounds. No Saudi princes on the planes.
(d) It conflates the "imperialism" thesis with "poverty spurs terrorism" which are two different things. The latter was advanced by the likes of Colin Powell, who, rather than critiquing U.S. imperialism, conducts it. The former was advanced by leftist/anti-war types, and states that physical U.S. interventions and aid to repressive governments - e.g., support for Mubarak, the Saudi Royal Family, King Abdullah of Jordan, Israel, etc. - are what cause the anger that results in terrorism.
So, I've removed this passage until someone wants to do something better with it. Graft 15:11 27 May 2003 (UTC)
:: An individual who claims Colin Powell "conduct[s] imperialism"  and throws in Israel, a liberal democracy, with theocratic and truly repressive, non-democratic regimes is the one policing an article for POV violations?  Talk about the fox watching the henhouse.  Yet another example of why Wikipedia is a total joke on any article that has even a remote connection to anything resembling politics.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.28.75.230 (talk) 02:17, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Terrorism and Poverty NPOV

message: I don't seem to remember the Taliban claiming responsibility for the attacks. When-all did this happen, exactly? Is there some documentation for this claim? Graft
:I agree with you. Looks like this article is not WP:NEUTRAL. We have to consider all opinions, from people of all over the world in advance to edit Wikipedia. :/ --WikiLite91 (talk) 23:55, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Taliban claims of responsibility

message: I'm baffled by the claim that Al-Qaeda is not explicitly linked to the attacks.  Did no one watch the videos in which Osama bin Laden and Sulaiman Abu Ghaith claimed responsibility and explicitly promised that more such attacks were in the works? --Delirium 03:27 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)
ahem, how good is you arabic ? it has been widely reported, that multiple interviews with UBL were mistranslated, or misinterpreted, as these people generally tend to speak in a very different way, we do. I am sorry, but i have to point out, that these statements ("we did 9-11") are not widely accepted. it is sure that he praised the attacks, but to my knowledge he never clearly claimed to be responsible.--217.224.142.247 06:46, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You've got to be joking.  Do you really think someone else was behind the attacks?  Has somebody else taken credit for them in stronger terms than OBL?  --csloat 19:01, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: al Qaeda responsibility

message: beginning "Worldwide, a significant minority see the attack as an outcome of past United States involvement in the Middle East and surrounding area..."
I hold this viewpoint. Otherwise, you'd be saying the attacks were made at random, that there was no cause. This is not saying "you got what you deserved" or anything of the sort. It's a logical analysis of history. Many on the American left have made these conclusions, but no one says that the attacks were justified or that they were not evil. I don't want to delete the paragraph but I think it should be revised for NPOV. --Tothebarricades.tk 03:59, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  the seventh paragraph 

message: link added to the book Crossing the Rubicon (Ruppert). I mean no disrespect for any of the victims. I feel wiki should mention a book exploring such possibility, as it is being considered by a non-negligible amount of citizens. It's not like saying 911 never happened: it's saying the conspirators for the killing may be in unexpected places. /Mick2 23:40, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is there, on the right at the bottom of the 9/11 template. Tom Harrison Talk 16:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  U.S. culpability 

message: I am not sure whether this should be mentioned here or under "conspiracy theories" or trash-bin, but I thought I would ask here. In http://menewsie.3.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=655 he claims among other things, that the Muslim Brotherhood was trained, by BI and CIA. The Muslim Brotherhood has been an inspiration to the development of other organisations, like e q Al'Qaida. This is one way one might blame the US for what happened, even if it is a stretch. Does anyone have a clue as to the reliability of John Loftus?DanielDemaret 18:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[John Loftus]]

message: Looking at the timeline, it appears that both air traffic controllers and NORAD could have reacted quicker and coordinated better. From 8:19 to 8:38 Boston AT takes 19 minutes to tell NORAD it *may* have a potential hijack. Dispite the fact that the plane remained on primary radar (but not secondary as its transponder was turned off) ATC did not, for whatever reason, relay position or heading information to the F15s launched to intercept it. The hijacking of flight 175 is apparently not even noticed dispite the fact is wondering off course as much as flight 11. Though the US 'open sky' policy means planes can make minor changes in speed, heading or altitude without ATC permission, aircraft that go off course by hundreds of miles should draw active attention for basic safety reasons.
You can call this lack of investment, poor training, or simple stupidity, but the fact is US Federal authorities appear to have screwed up by the numbers, and did not done all they could have to prevent the attack from being as sucessful as it was. It is not a conspiracy theory to point out more could have been done before (or during) the event - nor to point out the US was repeatedly advised of its poor aircraft security arrangements by other nations. Even months after 9/11 Flight International magazine was drawing attention to lack of checks on check-in baggage and pure cargo flights.
I have not found this information addressed on any wikipedia 9/11 page. Should it not be addressed here, not as responsability for causing it, but as responsability for letting it happen?
ANTIcarrot 13:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It definitely sounds like some great research and worth a section in the US responsibility section any article you can point to? Mrdthree 12:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've no idea what issue the Flight International article was from, and the only other mention was a British MP pointing out some of this, which did not go down well. Unfortunately when it comes to 911, the American press has been blinded by the event to the point of stupidity. They should have been pointing exactly that kind of thing out within a week, if not a month. They refuse to even to this day, which makes it difficult when you try and cite sources. Most of the above is based upon the official wiki timeline, and varrious federal rule about thow things are supposed to work, again which aren't easy to find ot cite. If I did put it up without such sources, it would no doubt be accused of being 'orrigonal thinking' and 'anti-american' in some way and taken down.ANTIcarrot 18:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Slow Federal Responce

message: This flatly states that in order to merely "suspect" the responsibility of persons in the US government one must be a conspiracy theorist. Literally that may be true but the phrase is pejorative in English-speaking countries and separate in meaning from "one who supports the idea of an internal conspiracy". Simply removing it leaves it unbiased.
:Good catch.  I fixed it. -- That Guy, From That Show! 03:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some conspiracy theorists also suspect complicity in the attacks within the U.S. government itself 

message: relevant portions should be reintegrated to Osama Bin Laden page, Al Qaeda page, September 11 Terrorist Attacks or 9/11 COnspiracy theories. Most of this article is original research. I am intersted in any arguments to the contrary. Is this article a catalogue of investigations or a catalogue of personal research by wikipedians? Mrdthree 05:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recommend to AfD

message: At a minimum governments failed to prevent a crime, which is negligence of duty. This puts a share of responsibility on the government. Mrdthree 02:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Government Responsibility

message: The Iraq section now seems to include extensive talk tilted toward links between Iraq and al-Qaeda, which are now largely discredited.  NPOV does not mean presenting both sides of an argument equally -- it means giving weight to the facts that have the most reliable sources (and sides that cannot be sourced are excluded--probably not pertinent here).  Giving so much weight to Woolsey and the "crackpot" (not my words) seems to work against this.  Further, the section now leads a reader to believe that al-Qaeda was culpible for the 1993 WTC bombing -- this is not factual -- an Egyptian Islamic organization was found to be responsible for that. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 14:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq section now seems tilted and leading 

message: World independent group news, investigation about 9/11
: I wanted to criticise the WING page about selling magic books but then I realized there may be guilt of magical thinking on all sides.Mrdthree 16:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be specific about this. 68.32.201.254 04:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As for they sell magic books. They sell magic books (their main advertiser was magic books). As for magical thinking on all sides, it was probably a refernce to a discussion where teh possibility of  government negligence was dismissed as conspiracy theory. Mrdthree 05:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Magic is a book company? If so than I am satisfied. 68.32.201.254 16:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  magic books   MAGICK BOOKS  MAAGIC BOOOKS Mrdthree 05:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Is this some kind of slander thing going on here or are you just trying to be funny? Sure they probably dabble in selling stuff on the paranormal, mainly stuff about Cayce and Douglas Kenyon, and they are in alliance with Jim Marrs (who believes similar to David Icke that the big conspiracies are the remnant of an alien invasion some fourto three thousand years ago). But I have listened to them for a year, and this is allready after five years of looking at this stuff, starting with Dr. Leonard Horrowitz and his shocking accusations towards the treatment industry and on through David Icke, Rappoport, then Jones and Rense until finally stumbling upon these two, and I must say, they are amongst the truest, most honest, not to mention sanest I have seen in this whole subject (Jon Rappoport is still good also since he has a comprehensive view of human nature, like them, and they advertise a book of his). The point, I think their comprehensive knowlege, their way of dealing with incomming knowlege (i.e., their reasoning abilities), and their courage for even mentioning some of this stuff in their plainly-spoken manner (such as Zionism, which I believe more and more people are really starting to question especially since Lebenon) makes them amongst the more reliable representatives of the conspiracy sub-culture, although they are so descerning and concise in their explanations that they end up sounding much like mainstream reporters, perhapse a little fanatical like some college kids hosting a political show. 68.32.201.254 15:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  9/11  from World independent group 

message: How does the fact that Jews died in the WTC cancle out the fact that an Israeli faction did it to spur the USA into destroying Israel's Islamic enemies? Also remember some of the works of Lenni Brenner on how Conservative Zionists handled the Holocaust. Zionism considers the typical Jew to be part of the larger collective, the Jewish Nation, and thus collateral in the larger goal of Greater Israel, and it may even present their deaths as heroic in it's own strange way (I doubt any of the victems, whether they be Jews or Christian Zionists, would have considered it in that way, nor do I believe they should). 68.32.201.254 16:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not Making Sense 

message: Under the Israel section I removed the sentence, "This theory has been proven to be false" due to the fact that the source (snopes) gave no actual proof, but rather a rant.  
--KonigArtus 21:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed sentence 

message: Re: most recent revert with comment "It's a bit more complex than that."
OK, that's an observation, but the text does not make sense as it stands. Putting "more than a half a century of support for Israel" with "Central CIA operations in Iran" and "aiding Iraq monetarily during the Iraq-Iran War" is nonsensical without some explanation. Only islamists tend to see support for Israel as an inherantly bad thing, so it needs some form of explanation.
The other quotes also need references, which they don't have.
And as for the completely catch-all "operations during the Cold War", what can one say?
I was trying to avoid removing the whole sentence, but you're right, it wasn't really possible.
I've removed the sentence. If anyone wants to stand up for the sentence, please, revert and we'll have a full debate about it!
It still doesn't make perfect sense, but it's better than it was
Deipnosopher 17:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  United States - re: most recent revert 

message: There is no mention at all of the ensuing trial or the FBI's involvement in the 93 WTC bombing. It does say "arab islamist terrorist" perpetrated the crime, which is only half true. Let's discuss expanding this section to include the whole truth. -66.108.3.41 (talk) 05:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: FBI involvement in 93 WTC bombing

message: This article needs substantial cleanup to bring it up to acceptable wiki standards.  Dubious sources such as cooperativeresearch need to go, as do places in the article where there is synthesis from various sources.  Mentioning Atta wiring $100,000 is also not appropriate.  Per verifiability policy, exceptional claims such as this require high-quality sources.  Citing the brief mention in the Opinion Journal really is insufficient.  There are other areas of the article that require cleanup, as well. --Aude (talk) 21:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article cleanup needed 

message: Any suggestion that Saudi Arabia "has some responsibility, having helped finance al-Qaeda, and allowing the organization to flourish" is meaningless. Saudi Arabia is the major target of Al Qaeda, not a supporter. In the very early days it did fund the organisation, but so did the USA.101.98.175.68 (talk) 03:04, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saudi Arabia 

message: I have removed this tag, after 7 years it seems to me that unless there is some active discussion on the "missing opinions" the tag is useless. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:42, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Too few opinions

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