Talk:Shiloh Shepherd dog/Archive 6

message: See the poll here
It doesn't appear we have a consensus for any of the proposed versions; back to the drawing board.  Lets rewrite or discuss particular changes that would make the proposals work. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 01:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Closed:Straw Poll - History Section 

message: YOU SAID
Ok, couple of other questions before I have this finished. I read in one older brochure that the Shiloh had been recognized by the FIC in 1990 right before the SSDCA was formed -- am I understanding that correctly? Also, I've read that the ISSR was organized in 1991 and 1992 so the 1991 is correct? .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 22:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, so the FIC was just accepting registrations from Shilohs for a while before the ISSR was started, and the SSDCA and ISSR were both formed in 1991.  I was also wondering which year you changed the kennel name to New Zion Shilohs -- I'm going to do more looking through the Learning Center, but I hadn't found that yet.  Thanks for the help. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 01:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

text: An in-law area, I have one of those :)  Of course, I think my family or in-laws now owns most of the block we live on!  Since there's quite a bit of history to your kennels, maybe it would be best to just leave the founding kennel in the actual history section and at some point write a brief section about the founder which could expand a bit more on the kennels history.  I think we also need to add something about the future plans for the breed -- we might put it at the end of the history, or if it ends up large enough, give it its own section.  I'm working on expanding some of the other sections.  I'd really like to see if we can't all work together to get this article to featured article status. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 15:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure that a registry needs to be incorporated to operate.  There are plenty of sole-ownership registries for rare breeds, so I think we can just list the dates they started operating. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 15:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Thank you Karen, that was exactly what I was looking for. I think I recall seeing the Origins of the Shiloh Shepherd book posted in pdf form somewhere on the learning center, but for the life of me I can't find it now -- it would be nice to be able to link it in the reference section.  Of course I've looked at so much lately, I could be remembering wrong .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 16:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Now that I say that, I found the links to the PDFs, but do you happen to have the address for the page that links to the PDFS for all the chapters?  Thanks. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 16:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Ahha!  That's the one.  Thanks Sandra. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 16:54, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to Jareth 

message: I, for one, appreciate the time you are taking to research this breed in order to help write a NPOV history section for these dogs.  I think you have some good ideas for this article.  PLEASE!! Do not stop now!
SandraSS 00:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thank you Jareth  :) 

message: This is the first section of the history so far:
:In 1974, Tina Barber, of Shiloh Shepherd Kennel in New York State, began developing a unique line of German Shepherds. Her goal was to preserve the type of dog she remembered from her childhood in Germany; dogs who are good family companions, exceptionally intelligent, mentally sound, big and beautiful - similar to Chuck Eisenmann’s dogs from The Littlest Hobo.  After years of selective breeding and genetic research, she seperated her dogs from the AKC in 1990.
:In 1991, The Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA, Inc.) was incorporated.  Shilohs were originally registered dually through the FIC and AKC, but after difficulty with standards verification, the SSDCA decided to open the first Shiloh-only registry, The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR). Due to some documentation problems with the original ISSR registrar, a special program was designed by The Complete Computer Place (TCCP) to process registry data for the ISSR.  Since then more than 4,000 dogs have been registered with the ISSR.  They also maintain a database with over 45,000 ancestors in order to properly calculate various factors within the limited genepool.
For the second section, I still need a couple of pieces of information.  Why were the other registries started (NSBR, TSSR, NSBA) -- and please, lets keep this to facts, no attacking.  I also need to verify when they were started, I have the NSBR in 2001 and the TSSR and NSBA both in 2002 -- are those correct?  Also, the ISSDC was re-started in 2004, correct?  Please let me know any additional information you feel should be in the history for these registries -- again, facts only please (dates, etc just like the above).  The history section is not a place for controversy; if necessary, we can create a section on the controversy and discuss the two POVs there, but lets please not fight to put it in the history. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 16:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This link may be helpful in explaining how/why the other registries began.  http://www.shilohshepherds.info/clubsplit.htm  Also, this link too http://www.shilohshepherds.info/shilohHistory.htm SandraSS 17:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've looked at those, which is actually how I got some of the dates for the other registries, and I've also seen a blurb about the differences on ISSDCs site , the mission on NSBR , so I'm assuming it was over a dispute in breeding program standards, but I don't want to put that in and then get yelled at, so I'm asking. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 17:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Jareth, the other registries are currently working on responses to the questions you have regarding their section of the History proposal and will be able to provide you with this information within the next day or so, if this works for you.  Please advise. Thank You. MilesD. 18:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no time limit :)  Just trying to get everyone working on something so our poor History section doesn't stay so pitiful :) .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 18:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Well put Iamgateway.  If it's deemed by all appropriate that those statements are included, so shall it be appropriate the those that left respond with reasonings.  The interesting part of the quote you provided was that it would appear that some have a sense that "The Wiki" (eg mediators such as Jareth) are deciding how this article is written.  That is incorrect.  WE collectively are writing this article, the article won't be finalized until WE (both ISSR and Non-ISSR) are in agreement.  It's not a case of swinging the opinions of a moderator, or winning the favour of a mediator, but rather through constructive discussion attempting to find a point where we are in mutual agreement.  Jareth (and before Trysha, and Elf) are our referees (not judge/jury), and are trying to guide our discussion to an amicable resolve. Gwyllgi 17:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: First, it's "copyright" not "copywrite".  I think you'd have a difficult time supporting that quoting a statement on a forum is covered by copyright and not available under the fair use statute.  Reference Section 107 of the US Copyright Law.  Gwyllgi 03:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: How many times is the "shilohshepherds.com" website going to be linked in this discussion?  The Wall of Shame - no POV there.  Or your viewpoint on the differences in the registries, we might as well ask Rush Limbaugh to summarize the Democrats, it would carry about the same neutrality.  I thought the premise of original research and POV has been discussed numerous times here.  It would be interesting at some point for someone to add the number of times these links have been thrown in this discussion.  The "Facts According to TB" is not what will bring resolve to this article.  We can continue this for months on end, or we can try and find resolve. The only one seeming to be dragging "emotion" into this is editor TB with the excessive use of captials, bold lettering, and exclamation points.  Gwyllgi 03:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History proposal and things still needed 

message: JARETH SAID
<< Why were the other registries started (NSBR, TSSR, NSBA) -- and please, lets keep this to facts, no attacking. I also need to verify when they were started, I have the NSBR in 2001 and the TSSR and NSBA both in 2002 -- are those correct? Also, the ISSDC was re-started in 2004, correct? Please let me know any additional information you feel should be in the history for these registries -- again, facts only please (dates, etc just like the above).  >>
Tina replies ... as honestly as possible, with links that are fully documented.
All of the clubs history can be found on http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapSSDCALinks.htm
This site details the first "split" item by item .. fact by fact http://www.shilohshepherds.info/clubsplit.htm
The original ISSDC was started by Gary Allison, in 98 he started a registry & many of his members were upset over this event, so they requested an amnesty (to return to the SSDCA) This project was started by Mynde Bunker, and assisted by Barb Cullen http://www.shilohshepherds.info/olivebranch.htm
quote from our site   http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapSSDCALinks.htm
Amnesty offered (Oct. 1999) All details of the club split were placed in the Learning Center. 
SSDCA Amnesty Letter (October '99) 
Please note: the Amnesty Letter Expired on 11/27/99 
 Frequently Asked Questions Regarding the Amnesty Letter 
Olive Branch Letter sent to ISSDC members (November '99) Influential letter sent by 3 former members of the ISSDC to ISSDC members encouraging them to take part in the amnesty offer for the betterment of the breed. 
Please note: the ISSDC/r was disbanded in early 2001 and the USSDC/r (United Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club/Registry) took over the "records". This group never managed to get organized and by 2002 was taken over by the SSBA (Shiloh Shepherd Breeders Association).  As of 2004 this group has also been active although the new "registrar" has now taken over the former "TSSR", started in late 2002 by Patti Schaefer and a few  former ISSDC/r breeders.  For additional details please be sure to read Confusion!
I am sorry if the links don't work .. computers are not my best friends :>(
You can also find a lot of good links in this letter to the UKC.   http://www.shilohshepherds.com/letterToUKC.htm
Here is a link to the quick matrix we prepared for the UKC http://www.shilohshepherds.com/issrShilohShepherdTable.htm 
This is our most recent article http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/registyComparisons.htm  It includes a "registry" matrix that lists dates, etc. http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/registryComparisonMatrix1.htm
If you have any other questions, please let me know.   MaShiloh 19:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  reply to registries questions 

message: YOU SAID .....
Regarding Section 107 of the US Copyright law, you honor that but not a document that does have a Copyright from that office? I am speaking of the ISSR Breed Standard. Don't understand how parts of the copyright law are applicable to you and not others.' Corfil 15:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reply to Corinne 

message: JARETH SAID
<< We didn't part nicely, but we managed to behave civily afterwards. Present your facts -- the truth should speak for itself. If you have to attack and smear the other party, does that mean you couldn't get customers standing on your own? If you have differences, all you have to do is state those, hell even dedicate your website to those if you must, but this childish mudslinging makes all of you look like spoiled brats. >>
I fully agree, as do most of the ISSR breeders that this is 100% non productive!!  However, I did want to point out that on my blog, I was not *attacking* the "other side" ... although (since they were posting *their* blog everywhere) I felt FORCED to answer their false accusations!!  Since they left, they seem to feel a need to keep attacking me any way they can .... even with false criminal charges (that were dismissed in court!) that is why I felt obligated to state the truth!!  Just like I did in http://www.shilohshepherds.com/theRestOfTheStory.htm  MaShiloh 18:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Court transcripts can be verifiable and cited as such.  This site, however, doesn't give context nor the complete set of court documents.  It does so in order to display a particular POV.  Esentially the site is designed to disparage Tina and rationalize someone's use of the Shiloh name.  Please don't insult my intelligence. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 21:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I'm a bit out of sorts from the goings on here lately.  Court documents are sometimes used as references, but a site which displays them may or may not have an agenda.  I agree, they're wonderful dogs and I'm very impressed by the idea of returning to the real GSD, but I'd be very concerned about dealing with some of the breeders I've run in to here -- I'd hate to get on the wrong end of that :) .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 21:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ATTACK 

message: Mike Said ...
<< This was nothing like when I was breeding GSD's.
That's when it hit me!!  The answer to all of these "fights" that have been going on for so long!  Most of the people that just can't get with the program have the old BYB mentality!  It's no wonder that they rebel against the ISSR rules ... why they call me the dictator etc. They just want to have pups & get money ... they have no desire to improve/perfect this breed ... they thought it was a done deal that's why they keep rejecting the fact that these dogs are STILL under development :>(
MaShiloh 16:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  That's it!!!