Talk:Newroz

message: First of all the 'reference' used  does not even mention this as a Kurdish festival. 
:Exactly, my point of using this reference, which is an official Turkish site, is to point out that Turkey now officially considers "Nevruz" as a Turkish holiday.Bertilvidet 16:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: information in this article is not neutral.
Now I am sensible enough to let you guys bring about a reference to justify the existance of this article, as clearly it should only be a section in Norouz. Until then, I am going to put a dispute tag --Kash 15:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: "Newroz" is one of many local prononciation varieties of Norouz the ancinet Persian New Year which is also celebrated by Kurds, Central Asian Turks, Azeris, Tajiks, Pashtuns and Bahai faith. As before, this article should be redirected to Norouz to avoid confusion. --ManiF 15:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I appreciate this but please atleast put a reference to where you are getting your information about the festival from. I am sure it exists but not as it is described here --Kash 15:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I myself first began the article from that article but bothe Newroz and Nauroz, (nauruz , noroz...) have their own article. ~This article is the Kurdish version. Yours is the Persian one. Still there are many other different versions. Since both have their own material, there is no need for redirection. Diyako Talk + 15:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I once before mentioned that the Persian Nuruz(na...) is full of mistake and POV and uncited stuff. The Kurdish Newroz article is a wel-cited article. The admins will look at the article and will find that there is nothing wrong with it. Diyako Talk + 15:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: If so, then mention the sources at the bottom of the page under the heading "References" --Kash 15:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The are already seven eiight references in the article even in the front of the paragraphs which is more accurate than just in the reference section, but if this can help you I do it.Diyako Talk + 15:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Newroz and Norouz are not different, It's the same Festival with different pronunciations. This article should redirected to Norouz to avoid confusion. --ManiF 15:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: As you see they are totally different. Diyako Talk + 15:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not. It's the same Festival. Your  "source" is a Kurdish web-page. Newroz  page was redirected to Norouz, before you decided that Newroz is a new festival. --ManiF 15:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article has serious factual problems 

message: You mention this as a source: 
This is what? a film review? You can't use this as a source on an encylopedia, not as a reference to a historical event atleast! --Kash 15:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, if you have any problems with the Persian one, discuss it in that talk page.
Secondly even that source mentions "Turkey has appropriated this 3000 year-old Kurdish/Iranian/Persian/Zoroastrian NEWROZ festival"
That sounds like they are the same things to me? --Kash 15:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not exactly the same, They all have their own traditions thus there are different pages for them. Diyako Talk + 16:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: If they are the same thing but there are different ways of celebrating them then maybe they should be merged. 
This event is coming up tomorrow, it's best to make one good article instead of having several different ones, with no references and full of mistakes --Kash 16:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: It seems that any articles mentioning anything about Kurdishness gets the totally disuted tag. Maybe you should create a tag for this, warning that some find mentioning of Kurdishness offensive. Until then please point out the concrete passages in the text that should be POV or incorrect. Bertilvidet 16:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Creating an article about sth. is not the same as creating what the article is about. "yesturday this article did not exist" is not a problem. --Fasten 18:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The historical part lacks sources, that is right - and that section is tagged. Where else is the problem? And you tag it as totally disputed...so please give us the arguments for lack of both NPOV and factual accuracy. Bertilvidet 16:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text: See you talk --Kash 16:26, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total dispute? 

message: As far as I understand, the main dispute actually is whether this article has its own raison d'être. I proposed on the norouz talk page that we create a proper article for the Kurdish version of Newroz. My argument for this is, that Newroz is a very important event for Kurds as a manifestation of their identity...My knowledge is solely about the current political significance about Newroz as a celebration of Kurdish identity. I guess the history is the same, and I dont know if the current ways of celebrating it are the same among Kurds as among Persians. It would be OK for me if this article solely deals with political implications of the Kurdish celebrations of Newroz - in the case that the history, traditions and rites are the same. Bertilvidet 16:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Raison d'être of this article 

message: Would people please stop deleting this article. If you dont like the content, participate in the talk. Bertilvidet 16:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop the destruction 

message: I've protected this following a request, but we don't as a rule like to protect articles with the current-event tag on them, so could someone give me a quick rundown of the dispute, and how many people are involved on each side? SlimVirgin (talk) 16:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for protecting the page. Hopefully this will give us more incentive to reach a compromise. Most of the debate is conducted at Talk:Norouz. As far as I understand the people deleting the article / redirecting it to Norouz, the question is whether the Kurdish celebration deserves its own article. On both sides some people have shown willingness to reach a compromise. As a compromise I suggest that we rename this article to "Kurdish Newroz celebration", as I believe it deserves an article, mainly on the grounds that the festival is an important manifestation of Kurdish identity - and keep a comprehensive Newroz/Norouz article that deals with the history og Newroz and the different way it is celebrated. Bertilvidet 17:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think we already resolved this, restore/move Norouz and the Kurds and redirect this back to the main article. Kaveh 17:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a 'Kurdish new year' and has a 'celebration'. This 'celebration' which is called 'Newroz' needs its own article. There is no need for merging.Diyako Talk + 18:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Norooz is an Iranian festival or Iranian new year festival. I have provided academic sources for that in Norooz page. Even in Kurdish pages, it should be mentioned that this is an Iranian festival. There is NO academic source that states that Newroz is a Kurdish festival. Diyako! We need academic sources (not a kurdish forum or webpage made by separaists or political activists.) in wikipedia.   --Sina Kardar18:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Sina, I would like to invite you to Turkey in order to assist a Newroz celebration here. You will see that millions of Kurds use this opportunity to reclaim cultural rights and to display pride. If you see that - or read some articles about it - you will realize that contemporary Newroz celebration is much more than an Iranian event. Bertilvidet 18:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: There was a wrong redirection and I started a new article which directly discuss the matter, it is not sin! About several weeks ago there was a redirection from 'Kurdish terroristic propaganda' to 'Kurdish music' article by user Khoikhoi whicgh I made the wrong redirection deleted by an admin. Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikstan all are Persian-speaking while Kurds are Kurdish-speaking, They have their own name for their festival. No need for Persian names. Diyako Talk + 19:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Norouz is not a Persian name, نوروز is and Newrouz, Norouz, Norooz and all others are merely transliterations of the same word! You seem a bit caught up in pronunciations, I must say I am startled. User:SlimVirgin, please restore the redirect and allow the user to justify his changes before any further alteration to the previously accepted naming convention. Kaveh 19:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I know that exactly, but here the Newroz is the Kurdish common title for the Kurdish celebration of spring. Diyako Talk + 19:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. The title for such articles must follow a a well defined style like: "Norooz in Kurdistan" or "Norooz in Tajikistan" or "Norooz in Turkey" ...Read my comments in Norooz Talk page. --Sina Kardar 19:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: And this is the English Wikipedia and you have taken over a redirect for Norouz. Create an unambiguous entry for what you feel warrants an independent entry. We will discuss the merits of your arguments there. Kaveh 19:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is an article from Turkey clearly indicating that the Kurds all celebrate an Iranian festival. http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4112557.asp?gid=74 69.196.139.250 21:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Hürriyet is a 'Turkish' newspaper!  Diyako Talk + 21:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What do you mean ? Turks are Iranian or Persian POV ??!!!!  Hey guys!  we do not need these sources. We have enough academic source at the end of the page Norooz. No doubt that this is an Iranian festival.  --Sina Kardar21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not going to interfere whether Norouz is Iranian or Akkadian or whatever. But I'm discussing that Newroz is the Kurdish celebration of spring, Don't agree? then ask admins for mediation. Diyako Talk + 21:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have provided several academic sources. You might not care whether it is Iranian or not. Your personal view has no value here. I provided several academic sources but you were not able to provide even one. You are not expert and your personal view does not count. --User:Sina Kardar21:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  My sources were academic (encyclopedia iranicca and center for iranian studies at univ london). You have NOT provided any ACADEMIC source yet. --User:Sina Kardar21:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  Norouz is all the same festival Diyako and all the sources support this. The only Kurds that claim it is different are just seperatists, right? I mean even the pictures used on the article you have made up is all from a political party demonstration, admitted the photographer himself. --Kash 21:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The contemporary celebration is not all the same. The Newroz celebrations in Turkey are highly politisezed. The photographer himself aka Bertilvidet 21:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I prefer a mediation and discuss the matter with admins rather than Iranian users. Diyako Talk + 21:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Whatever is the nationality of our co-editors is indeed irrelevant!!! Bertilvidet 21:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because many Iranians are so proud that claim that Kurds are wild and have no culture no history nothing, but Iranian culture!! Iranians educated them, Iranian made Kurds to be human. They cannot be neutral. Diyako Talk + 21:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Please discuss the issue rather than your prejudicies! Kash has not expressed such views in this debate! Bertilvidet 21:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately this is your personal preoccupation. Not only Iranians but also persians do not think like this about Kurds. Provide a source that says "Iranians believe that they educated Kurds". or a source made by Iranians indicating that Kurds are non Iranian. --User:Sina Kardar21:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Calling Kurds as well as their culture and tradition to be Iranian is another insult made by Iranian and many other people. Diyako Talk + 21:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK ! If being Iranian is insult, I now delete my insult!!!!! Now you should provide basis for your claims and insults. --User:Sina Kardar21:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Please discuss the issue rather than determining others' nationality Bertilvidet 21:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Please all of you friends forgive that That I discussed the matter of Iranians and Kurds. It does not belong to wikipedia or at least to this article. I was tired but It was my 'bad' .Diyako Talk + 22:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protection

message: The only choice is mediation. Or renaming the Kurdish article as bertilvidet said, Kurdish celebration of Newroz. Diyako Talk + 21:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not agree. We should agree on a consistent style for all sister pages. What title do people suggest for a page on Norooz celebrations in Lurestan ? What is going to be the title for the page on Norouz celebrations in Tajikistan ??  Here is a bbc report of Norouz of Tajikistan . You see there are many interesting things in it and it needs a title. --User:Sina Kardar 21:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This people who you are refering to all are Persian or conseiderd as Persian-speaking., Kurds speak another language and have a different but common name for the spring festival. This name is common and 'widely used' in English than any other word for Kurdish celebration. Kurds celebrate a Newroz festival this is all. Diyako Talk + 22:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not true. There are many non-persian speaking areas like azerbaijan. It is strange that you are saying that Lors are persian or persian speaking !!!! Very good sign !! Please read this academic source.   --User:Sina Kardar22:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have no problem with using the word Newroz in the body of the article (not its title). The title of all sister pages should follow the same trend and also consistent with the mother page. --User:Sina Kardar22:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: My suggestions is the following:
If the title of the mother page is going to be Norouz then:
I suggest Norouz Celebrations in Kurdistan (Newroz) and the same trend for other places : Norouz Celebrations in Tajikistan, Norouz Celebrations in Azerbaijan etc. It depends also on other peoples votes. --User:Sina Kardar22:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: But the point is that the Kurdish celebrations are not only in Kurdistan. 200.000 participated in Istanbul yesterday, and throughout Europe, among the diaspora, there are many events. I am convinced that the contemporary Kurdish celebrations - highly politisized - differ a lot from the Iranian celebrations. Bertilvidet 22:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  About Lors: yes it is true. Because here it is in favor of you, they become Persian. and on Persian language page they suddenly become non-persian. I really like your style! --User:Sina Kardar22:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am against the use of 'Kurdistan' in to this, as far as I know Iranian and Iraqi Kurds don't celebrate it different to Iranians (I had a long discussion about it with my Kurd friends) --Kash 22:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Dear Kash, I was not aware of the difference. What do you think about my new suggestion ?--User:Sina Kardar22:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  Dear Bertilvidet, we can also think about "Norouz celebrations among Kurds (Newroz)" as an alternative. Please notice that when you search for let's say "Iranian culture" you will be reverted to "Culture of Iran". It does not mean that those few milion Iranians out of Iran do not share Iranian culture. --User:Sina Kardar22:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It may be also OK to use Kurdish Celebrations of Norouz. The word Norouz must be there to make it consistent with the mother page.--User:Sina Kardar23:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The word Kurdistan will be disputde by many users (from middle east) who see it offensive! also it does not include all Kurdish people. Many Kurds live outside Kurdistan. The word Norouz has no meaning for Kurds. My suggestion is to remove any refering to this problematic word of N****z... and Instead agree on Spring celebration among Kurds or Kurdish spring celebration or Kurdish spring festival... But I should see what is others opinion esp Bertilvidet who I accept him as a quite neutral person. Diyako Talk + 23:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  As far as I know Kurds do not speak in English. There exist a main article. All sister articles must be consistent with it. --Sina Kardar23:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: How you mean?Diyako Talk + 23:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  "The word Norouz has no meaning for Kurds." Was that meant to be a joke?! I have many Kurd friends who actually call it Norouz, they actually have a problem with 'Newroz' mentioned here. They say its used in a political context where it means 'uprising' --Kash 23:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kash may I ask you leave this argument that you have Kurdish friends that think so or don't think so?! Diyako Talk + 23:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  I agree with Kash. "Norouz" is also used in Kurdish media. I have already provided references for that.--User:Sina Kardar23:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Time out. I agree with Sina that the debate is getting trite. We are only the same four people, and from both sides there have been severel unbecoming comments. I will withdraw for the night, and hope some people will come fresh to problem. Shab bekheir / Sew bas Bertilvidet 23:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  I am also TIME OUT! Good night. Count the people in the world you hate, then you would know how much you are far from humanity. --User:Sina Kardar23:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  First - Diyako your claim is almost insane. 40% if not more of Kurds live in Iran and speak Persian as first or second language. Whole of Iran know exactly what Norouz is as its their public holiday and the word is Persian so they would know exactly what it means. That should already be enough to discredit your "The word Norouz has no  meanings for Kurds" argument. 
Time out indeed. --Kash 23:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: 20%, and they are Kurds nothing alse, for assimilation of Kurds by Iranians and resistance of Kurds see Britannica. The only name for Kurdish celebration of spring both in English and Kurish is Newroz nothing else, don't agree? ask for mediation. Diyako Talk + 23:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You seem to be the only one who doesn't agree. Read my comments above and think about. if you don't agree with anything, go a head for mediation. --Kash 00:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Follow up: I just realized that someone made Norouz and the Kurds. That's just as good as 'Kurdish celebration of Newroz', and serves the same purpose. Cuñado  - Talk 02:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise?

message: I've updated the Norouz article, but in my user space, so no one gets mad.  It's currently at User:Jeff3000/Norouz.  Please take a look and comment, and make changes on that page.  If enough people think it's ok, we can move it back to the Norouz page.  It includes part of this page, and then links to it. -- Jeff3000 05:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Support I back you 100% and want to thank you for making the proposal on your user page and for keeping the cool in the heated cross fire!
This particular debate seems to be conducted at Talk:Norouz#Possible_version_for_Norouz Bertilvidet 10:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible version for [[Norouz]] 

message: Newroz/Norouz has been celebrated for 3000 years. It is "deeply rooted" in the traditions of Zoroastrianism. It LONG outdates the Persians, those living in modern Iran, and the Norouz article makes it seem as though it is an exclusively Persian celebration, that is celebrated by other countries and populations only because they were once part of the Persian Empire. This is why Newroz and Norouz should stay separate. Newroz or Norouz is as much a Kurdish celebration as it is a Persian one, as the Kurds and the Persians and all other populations who traditionally have celebrated have some ancestral or religious commonality. 
It is NOT exclusively Persian, contrary to what the Norouz article leads those who read it to believe. That article's history of Norouz section is primarily Persian, and Norouz in Modern Iran... nuff said.
And your pathetic, "academic" sources... please. Just because someone holds some sort of degree in history of the Persian Empire, does not mean they know everything remotely related to it -such as Newroz/Norouz.
----------------------------------------------
Hey guys, we had an extensive discussions yesterday on this issue. It seems that Diyako is just editing and editing without paying attention to other people's sources and comments. No body agreed on this title: "Kurdish Celebrations of Newroz". The article must be deleted or renamed to "Norouz among Kurds" or "Norouz Celebrations among Kurds (Newroz)". The name of the mother article is "Norouz" and it must be kept in all sister articles. This article must be consistent with the main article on Norouz. --User:Sina Kardar08:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Persian article (Norouz) by itself has no widely accpetd term while among Kurds the common word is Newroz, any other term does not belong to Kurdish word. when you directly discuss Kurds then you should use the term Newroz not other irrelevant terms. Diyako Talk + 08:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The word that are used in academic sources are: Noruz, Norooz, and Norouz and it refers to the festival in general including kurdish one. I do not want to repeat myself. Read yesterday's discussions and sources. It seems that you don't have a good memory. No academic source used the word Newroz as its title.--User:Sina Kardar09:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is you who should read the yesterday discussion, as i said 10000000 million times the name of festival for the Kurdish people is Newroz, is it hard to understand??? 
http://www.kevinmckiernan.com/article_turkey.html
Diyako Talk + 09:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  I wrote all yesterday's dicussions. You did NOT provide any sources yesterday. You can say it 100000000 times more. What you personally think does not count. We need academic sources. Come out of politics. --User:Sina Kardar09:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sina you cannot just my sources. Wikipedia:V. I have provided enough sources. All my sources are verifiable, reliable, neutral, and directly discuss the case of Kurds. Diyako Talk + 09:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  Where are those ENOUGH!!!! sources ?  As always you claimed without offering evidence that "the boggus norouz please respect the Kurdish world" . SOURCE IT ! my friend! --User:Sina Kardar09:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can not you see or read my sources?? I have provided several dozens of sources Is it hard to see them? do not kill Kurdish world. Diyako Talk + 09:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am waiting for your sources on the above claim. --User:Sina Kardar09:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  I don't think you are my friend that I to be your friend. You do not resdpect anything Kurdish. ignore my sources. Don't forget I'm not new on wiki. Diyako Talk + 09:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am waiting for your sources. Do not change the subject. --User:Sina Kardar09:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok see below, Diyako Talk + 09:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newroz as separate from Norouz 

message: Source provided by Diyako, shows that Newroz is Iranian/Persian/Kurdish/Zorostrian festival. No distinction between Kurdish and Persian Newroz. Newroz is also used for Persians. --User:Sina Kardar10:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and we can state that in the article. Diyako Talk + 11:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newroz is both Kurdish and Persian 

message: My understanding of the general consensus (after the new structure of the Norouz page) is that this page can now be redirected to Norouz, and the full article on the Kurdish Newroz (however it is decided to be spelled will be linked as it is on the Norouz page.  Is that correct, and if so can we get this page unprotected, and redirect it to Norouz. -- Jeff3000 23:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If our friends agree to the title of the article Kurdish celebration of Newroz then as a compromose I agree to redirect the blanked Newroz article (this article) to the page Norouz. It seems logical to me.  Diyako Talk + 23:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree, I think however first we should have approval from at least Kash and Sinar Kadar at Talk:Norouz#Possible_version_for_Norouz as they have been very engaged in the debate. I have asked them on their respective user pages to weigh in. Bertilvidet 10:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conclusion? 

message: Is this article seriously claiming that Newroz and Norouz are two different things??? If this is meant to be a joke, it is not funny. This article should be deleted. One article for Norouz is obviously sufficient. Shervink 15:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Newroz is a redirect to Norouz. Hope this sorts things out. Bertilvidet 16:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norouz and Newroz are different transliterations of the same word 

message: We have a set of pictures on this article which all look like from the same rally in Turkey. I think it is best if we remove one or two to make the overall look less political? --Rayis 14:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures