Talk:Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam/Archive 6

message: Does this case still require mediation or can I close it? --Ideogram 10:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can close it I think. Elalan 14:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I dont agree to closing the case. We still havent reached an acceptable solution Dutugemunu 12:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, do not close the case. You guys have to wait until User:Trincomanb's block get expire.  ♪♫ĽąĦĩŘǔ_Қ♫♪  (Ŧ) 13:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: "LTTE is illegal terrorist organization in USA, Sri Lanka, ..etc , these information and LTTE related links are promoting terrorism activities. Since terrorism is a worldwide problem, I'm strongly suggesting these LTTE related information and all related links to remove from Wikipedia. And LTTE is a shameful hiding guerilla organization."
Pretty obviously unencyclopedic, no? Within the day I will revert to the last version that does not include obvious soapboxing. Jimmyq2305 16:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, I'm only reading this now. I think this is a misunderstanding. What was removed back then was only the obsessively repeated statement that contained the personal remark "I'm strongly suggesting ...". In the meantime, we worked on a compromise in the above mediation case. — Sebastian 06:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: This is plain and simple vandalism by user , who already amassed several warnings for vandalism. I will revert it and I will add another warning on the user's talk page. — Sebastian 17:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, these steps have been done by someone else in the meantime. Thank you for notifying us! — Sebastian 17:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current Header 

message: I can't find citations for the following statement in Beginning section 
"After martial law was imposed in Jaffna in 1979, the LTTE began targeting the military"
:: RemovedDutugemunu 12:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed Dutugemunu 12:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Dutugemunu added  templates in the appropriate places. WP:CITE says: "Remove the claim if no source is produced within a reasonable time"; I'd say that would be in a week from now. — Sebastian 20:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Waiting for citations Dutugemunu 12:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Uncited statements

message: Removed Campaign Box state terrorism of Sri Lanka as there is already a see also link to an article ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ 10:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Campaign Box

message: Do we really need a recent events section? Most of it is already covered in the article Sri Lanka civil war. Adding all the recent events here (unless it is relavent to another section) could potentially make the article way too large. Besides, most of the incidents mentioned aren't recent anymore. So I think it should be removed completely. --snowolfD4(  talk /  @ ) 21:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent events section 

message: Hi Sebastian , I had made this section more readable with hyperlinks ot the related articles etc:-. I think this improves the article. However if you object to the lists, I will put the child articles into one section. Personally I think the lists are a better format Dutugemunu 07:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Attacks on Civilians

message: None of the referenced links in this section work. This sections should either be referenced to working links or credible source material or removed. -Share Bear
:: I have repaired the links, thank you for pointing this out Dutugemunu 00:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi Share Bear The LTTE has actually agreed to abide by the Geneva convention. I will add this info to the article. See http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1620/16200530.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dutugemunu (talk • contribs) 14:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  See http://www.sundaytimes.lk/961013/sitrep.htmlDutugemunu 14:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  massacre in wikipedia specifically defines killings of large numbers of POW's as a massacre. Ditto for other dictionary definitions. Dutugemunu 09:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  There are plenty of evidence that the LTTE have done these massacres. Dutugemunu 09:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  Both come from an US Department of State website. I'm assuming that would count as a reliable source. If anyone disagrees, let's discuss it on WT:RS — Sebastian 04:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you know books are not based on Internet material, tehrefore they do not provide a web citation for every sentence. Actually it is Internet pages which are based on books and other published material. Please read a few history and current affairs books if you do not believe me. That is why I asked you to contact one of the professors who authored this book and find their sources.Dutugemunu 09:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Re. your question: "you really picked a bad day for that" means: it was a day just after two bus bombings, and there was no need to do it on that day, of all days. If you'd like to discuss the bigger ethical picture with me, you're cordially invited to my talk page. — Sebastian 08:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Execution of POW's

message: This section contains three statements where the term "accused" is under discussion
==== POWs====
The LTTE have been accused of executing Prisoners of War in spite of a declaration by the LTTE in 1988 that it would abide by the Geneva Conventions.
::: There are plenty of evidence that the LTTE have done these massacres. Dutugemunu 09:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both come from an US Department of State website. I'm assuming that would count as a reliable source. If anyone disagrees, let's discuss it on WT:RS — Sebastian 04:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you know books are not based on Internet material, tehrefore they do not provide a web citation for every sentence. Actually it is Internet pages which are based on books and other published material. Please read a few history and current affairs books if you do not believe me. That is why I asked you to contact one of the professors who authored this book and find their sources.Dutugemunu 09:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Re. your question: "you really picked a bad day for that" means: it was a day just after two bus bombings, and there was no need to do it on that day, of all days. If you'd like to discuss the bigger ethical picture with me, you're cordially invited to my talk page. — Sebastian 08:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  accused? 

message: The LTTE have been accused of executing Prisoners of War in spite of a declaration by the LTTE in 1988 that it would abide by the Geneva Conventions.
::: There are plenty of evidence that the LTTE have done these massacres. Dutugemunu 09:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POWs

message: *  has been accused of massacring most of the 400 to 600 police officers captured after their surrender to the LTTE in 1990. 
* The LTTE have also been accused of executing 200 soldiers captured during an attack on the Pooneryn army camp.
:: Both come from an US Department of State website. I'm assuming that would count as a reliable source. If anyone disagrees, let's discuss it on WT:RS — Sebastian 04:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Police and Pooneryn army camp 

message: Not only that, they even accused to executing 207 officers and their men after over-running the Mullaitivu Military Base. --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ Walkie-talkie 13:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mullaitivu 

message: The reliablity of material given in a book is always questionable, unless there is reference to original source material. Like I said before Dutugemunu you cannot provide any reference to 'soldiers being burnt alive' from a NGO, AP, Reuters, or even a Sri Lankan Government News Release.
:::As you know books are not based on Internet material, tehrefore they do not provide a web citation for every sentence. Actually it is Internet pages which are based on books and other published material. Please read a few history and current affairs books if you do not believe me. That is why I asked you to contact one of the professors who authored this book and find their sources.Dutugemunu 09:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Re. your question: "you really picked a bad day for that" means: it was a day just after two bus bombings, and there was no need to do it on that day, of all days. If you'd like to discuss the bigger ethical picture with me, you're cordially invited to my talk page. — Sebastian 08:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable Sources 

message: I suggest replacing the recent events section with a link to the identical but much more detailed section in the Sri Lankan Civil War Page
It is impossible to adequately capture all the recent events on the LTTE page plus it is needless duplication and hardwork for all of the editors here Dutugemunu 00:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent event

message: See the bulleted points
::: Thank you for your explanation. Let me reply to each of your points:
:::; We still haven't reached a consensus have we?: Correct. This is why it should remain the way it was before you - without asking anybody - deleted it. 
:::; My humble request to all the editors is please respect each others feelings on this when commenting. No one has to be rude to anyone.: Thank you, I second that! To be clear, I assume this was directed at Kerr avon, who calls the hard, dedicated work of others "rubbish" (without any justification) and resorts to name-calling of well-intended editors, who rely on the best evidence available, while he has no evidence, except for his own strong opinion. 
:::::*It wasn't directed at a particular editor, but all the editors in general
:::; I dont think it is correct to have OUTDATED information in an article in wikipedia. : Please provide a reference for your claim that it's outdated. Yelling does not replace a reference. As I explained above, it's the best information we have. And December 2005 wasn't that long ago. Plenty of information here on Wikipedia is older than that. 
:::::*Sorry if me putting things in CAPITAL implied yelling to you. I didn't intend to YELL, why do we need a reference to say it is outdated it is obvious with its date and the undeniable fact that LTTE has lost ground in the east.
:::; Just few centuries ago: This is a fallacy of exaggeration if there ever was one! This map is a little over a year old, and you compare it with theories that were outdated 500 years ago? C'mon!
:::::*A year old or centuries old if the theory is outdated it is outdated isn't it? So the images claim (theory) that LTTE controls or partially controls areas depicted is outdated. You failed to see the point I was trying to make. I could cite any number of outdated reference to prove any theory, that wouldn't definitely make it correct would it?,
:::; So lets create a new image that shows the current situation without blurring the perception of the reader.: Absolutely! And in the meantime, we keep the old one!
:::::*In the meantime readers would get the wrong perception, which is not the correct thing to do isn't it? 
 ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ 10:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have a very good point here Ulflarsen, I think on this argument you can include the image. But could you kindly ensure that you find a better more recent image. ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ 15:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not have a better map, and I am not good at modifying maps. However, there should be quite a few people here that can make a revised version. Most of (if not all of the area south of Trinco) should either be blanked out or maked as under partial control by the LTTE as it seems from the latests news that they are close to being defeated there. Ulflarsen 16:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All the area south of Trinco is already listed as being under partial control, Ulf Larsen. Maybe the best way forward is to change the legend so that instead of saying "partially controlled by GoSL, pockets controlled by LTTE" it says "mostly controlled by GoSL, pockets controlled by LTTE" and make the colour more yellowish. My son and I made the map with the help of User:Vadakkan so I can easily change it. The situation at the moment is that the LTTE has small portions of the East, mainly in jungle areas such as the Vadamunai-Tharavai area (Thoppigala) in Batticaloa and also I think in the Kanjikudicha Aaru area of Amparai. Marking these areas specifically will be difficult, as there is no information publically available on where whose control stops, but I think saying "mostly controlled by GoSL" will describe the situation well. Should I make the change? -- Ponnampalam 16:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: reply to Sebastian

message: I want to apologize to Netmonger and Kerr avon. It was not helpful that I focused on people; this only distracted from the issue. Moreover, it is completely irrelevant if someone spells a word in ALL CAPS here. That's precisely the kind of statement that I usually fight when others write it! My only excuse is that it was late at night, and I should have been in bed instead. I'm busy today, but I'll be happy to talk about this tomorrow. — Sebastian 20:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Sebastian, there is no need to apologize, I am not offended and I am sure others are not offended, we are all trying to do the correct thing. A gentle advice though editing in late night could be quite stressful and harm your health and the quality of your edits.
 ŇëŧΜǒńğëŗ 05:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Apology

message: Hello folks, have been away for a while, partly due to the constant bickering over this and other articles but mostly because I have been quite busy, anyhow it is nice to see things have settled down.
I think it would be important to mention the TULF (Tamil United Liberation Front - political party) and the 1977 elections in the beginning section. As right now it reads as if Tamils went from asking for a federal solution straight to a rebellion for independence. However the fact is they then formed a united front to seek independence through a democratic process, it was only after this too was rejected that the youth began their rebellion in earnest. I have pasted some relevant text below from a journal article.
Please discuss here and I can add a sentence or two if we are in agreement.
:As in the past the UNP, SLFP, and the Marxists concentrated their electoral efforts in the Sinhalese areas. They entered the foray in the Eastern Province, but the Northern Province (apart from what could be deemed a token gestures) was once again left to the Tamil political organizations. However, there was a notable difference on this occasion in the North. The intraparty contests, which had always been a feature there since 1949 when the Federal Party (FP) was established by a breakaway group from the Tamil Congress (TC), was absent on this occasion. The new unity resulted from the almost unanimous opposition of the major Tamil political leaders and organizations to the 1972 Constitution, which they firmly believed accorded the Tamils a second-class citizenship status. Tamil grievances against the majority Sinhalese community and its political leaders had long preceded the enactment of the new constitution, but the previous attempts to carry out a political struggle under one banner had foundered on personal differences among the Tamil leaders. The climate created in 1972 effectively overrode personal clashes and the Tamil United Front, which became the Tamil United Liberation Front (TULF) prior to the 1977 election, was born. What is also significant is that this new umbrella organizations united for the first time the Tamil political parties in the North with the major trade union-cum-political party active among the Indian Tamils in the plantation sector. The importance of this development should be viewed in the light of the increasing drift towards separatism on the part of the Tamil people. Sentiments of separatism were much more powerfully articulated in the 1977 election than in previous elections. 
:The 1977 polls reemphasized the dominance of Tamil political organizations in the Tamil-speaking areas. In the Northern Province (85.1% Tamil in the 1971 Census) the TULF swept the board, winning all the electoral contests and 68.7% of the popular vote. In the Eastern Province, where there is a greater racial mixture (41.2% Tamil, 33.5% Muslim, and 22.7% Sinhalese in 1971), the TULF achieved a more limited success, winning only 3 seats out of the 10 contested with 27.1% of the popular vote. However, in all but one of the constituencies in the province in which the Tamils formed the majority community, the TULF was victorious. The TULF's performance in the 1977 general election is undoubtedly a further milestone in the emergence of what A. J. Wilson has called "Tamil subnationalism". 
:Source - 
:Sri Lanka`s 1977 General Election: The Resurgence of the UNP 
:Vijaya Samaraweera 
:Asian Survey, Vol. 17, No. 12. (Dec., 1977), pp. 1195-1206. 
:Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0004-4687%28197712%2917%3A12%3C1195%3ASL1GET%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G'''''
--Realstarslayer 14:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This looks good, thanks for the research Dutugemunu 08:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beginnings Section 

message: I'm just curious about what happened to this user. I know he used to take a very strong pro-LTTE view-point in these arguments earlier. What exactly happened to him? Became a victim of GOSL armies?
:: You never know? I heard something about a CheckUser, but otherwise I'm quiet unclear on the topic. lol. --Sharz 03:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So one sock puppet of Elalan has been found and blocked. How long will it take to block the others? Some of us already know what he's up to now. The name Elalan is used in Sri Lanka for quite a number of sinister activities, most in support of the LTTE. Coincidence??  222.165.173.73 01:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually didn't know that, but the name "Elalan" does have some links if you think about it, it's phonentic with the Tamil Homeland Eelam and also LTTE - Elalan share some letters, but for most part this is just conspiracy theory and I don't believe there are any connections. It's simple to block sock-puppets once one of the puppets have been found, just a simple case of cross-referancing the I.Ps with the blocked account, however alot of people that edit on the Sri Lankan Civil War articles use multiple accounts to vote stack and whatnot, or at least that's what I suspect, meaning that if one wishes to reveal the other's Users, the said user may still be capable of revealing the revealer's users. If you wish for me to investigate possible Puppets of Elalan, please discuss this on my talk-page as I am most likely going to investigate alot of accounts in the weeks to come, this discussion however should not be on this talk page. --Sharz 07:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Elalan is the Tamil form of the name of the King you people call Elara in Sinhala, who was defeated by Dutugemunu. It has nothing to do with the name Eelam or LTTE. -- Ponnampalam 16:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: User:Elalan

message: What are the other countries that have these terrorists marked as such besides US,Canada,Malaysia,EU,Lanka and India? There's gotta be some other major ones. Perhaps we should move to a list.Bakaman 23:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Apart from these countries there is Australia.  I think that is all you will find.  Why should other countries list a group whose activities do not affect them?  Even in these countries the restriction was mainly imposed to prevent fundraising. -- Ponnampalam 00:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: countries/entities

message: any ideas? It's hard to think of, isn't it? I don't want people taking advantage of Wiki, most notably the LTTE themselves to post pure propaganda. Even the slightest false fact in itself is unnecessary. But is there a way to stop this? This is the only problem with Wiki (take no offense, wiki is the best web-based encyclopedia I have ever seen). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.68.45.24 (talk) 23:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the reason why we started WP:SLR. Please check it out! — Sebastian 20:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to prevent bias? 

message: I added the accuracy tag since the source provided seems extremely unreliable. Apart from the fact that it is called the "Christian Science monitor" (which in itself brings issues of bias into anything that is published henceforth from them) a lot of the "satistics" used in the article contradict in very large amounts with more credible source such as the CIA fact book (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ce.html#People). Pubuman 07:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I added a BBC citation which states that over 5000 children have been abducted by the LTTE since 2002 JanuaryDutugemunu 10:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Child soldiers section 

message: Apparently the LTTE has acquired air capabilities to  carry out bombing missions.  Oh...and these edits might come off as original research and a bit heavy handed:  Jumping cheese Cont@ct 04:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But cheese dude, they are all well cited. The text is not FA standard "brilliant prose" cos I didn't have much time, but definitely not OR.--snowolfD4(  talk /  @ ) 17:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Update...