Talk:Bleak House

message: The name of Mercury was a nickname given to footmen by Dickens in this novel because they were used as messengers like the winged god and also by the standards of the day appeared godlike.I don't know whether anyone else used this term. In chapter 48 he  refers  to "Mercuries ...reposing in the hall."and "Mercury takes another flight" .It is a typical literary joke of Dickens which he keeps up throughout the book. In the ninteenth century very wealthy families would select male servants who were very tall and with good features for these positions. They were bewigged and dressed in 18th century costume and were stationed at the main door to recieve visitors and also assist them into and out of carriages, and to deliver messages by hand. An obvious symbol of wealth and status.In the BBC version of Bleak House, Lady Dedlock addresses her footman by the name of Mercury. This is not in the book and I do not think it would have happened.Dickens is fond of using   classical allusions and has Richard refer to his beloved Ada as Minerva on at least one occasion.
Hello unnamed person. Yes, you're completely right. Mercury is the third person narrator's tongue-in-cheek characterisation of the various footmen (they are interchangable) in service to the Dedlocks. I cringed when I saw that in the adaptation & I've removed Mercury from the minor character list accordingly.--Ibis3 05:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Joan (aka Booklover), I've just restored your comments by reverting to the last version that had them. No problem. :) Feel free to get in touch via my talk page if you need anything in the future. Anyway, you might want to register so you can sign your edits and comments with your name (which you can do even now by clicking on the signature button over the edit screen -- it will just sign with your IP address). --Ibis3 15:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bleak House by Charles Dickens 

message: Either today or tomorrow, I'm going to try to add as rational a synopsis as I can manage. I'll miss out the minor plotlines, and simply give the broad trajectories of Esther/Jarndyce/Woodcourt, Ada/Rick, Esther/Lady Dedlock, Lady Dedlock/Tulkinghorn. With lots of spoiler warnings, of course. Ajcounter 16:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't need many just a top and tail "spoiler" "endspoiler" as included in the :Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate pattern. Also it would be nice to have a shortish "Plot introduction" that acts as a spoiler free taster to anyone who would like to think about reading the novel. Also you might like to consider joining the project. Thanks. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 16:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Plot summary

message: Hi, I'm the person who added the legacy stuff - and you're a person who wasn't signed in, so I hope you find this here. The ref for the Bondswoman's Narrative is under References, a few lines below. That paragraph has been "improved" since I wrote it, so if I ever put a linking footnote in it's certainly gone now.
But you're right, there is a Q about original research and books. I'm not sure I've seen it resolved consistently. Because if taking information from the novel is original research, then most Plot Synopses are original research, unless derived from Amazon! Of course there are novels for which lit crit with a synopsis has been published, but this by no means covers all books which make it into WP. In fact, much of the information in the "Analysis and Criticism" section is also direct from the novel. I know this because I wrote those bits: and since that section also has no cites you have no more reason to believe it than the "Legacy" section. So you may feel it is better to remove all material drawn from the novels themsleves.
Actually, I now can't remember whether the comparison to Bleak House uses a direct description of Bondswoman, or is mentioned in the intro/notes to Gates' edition. So at least one of use will have to, ahem, follow the reference and check (I'd borrowed the book from a library). WP's footnoting - and my knowledge of it - have both moved on rather a lot since I first put that in, so it would now be possible to give quite thorough refs without disrupting the flow too much.
For now, I'm putting that section back to what it was, simply because the code seems to be buggered and it's unreadable (maybe a temporary development glitch): please do reinstate "cites" where you feel appropriate, until such time as one of us checks the ref.  Not necess, as § deleted.
Meanwhile, it would be very good to have your comment on where you would be comfortable drawing the line between info taken directly from a novel, and information taken from secondary sources (the ideal). JackyR | Talk 18:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy 

message: The first paragraph of this article ends with a question (bad form in an encyclopedia), which I suspect means it was lifted from some instructor's or education service's website.  Any ideas? Thor Rudebeck 17:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarism evident 

message: It does not say anywhere in the novel that Esther has contracted smallpox. Dickens intentionally left it ambiguous to open up allusions to the 1850's outbreak of cholera. It is pretty obvious that Esther has smallpox, but it is not stated explicitly.
There is a note in the Oxford World classics edition that Esther may have suffered from Erysipelas
15:03, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Esther's Disease

message: Looking at the way that the description of Esther, in relation to the novel, as being described as "coy" behaviour - I wonder if that comment was written from, perhaps, a biased point of view rather than a non-judgemental view. Considering the behaviour and, after reading the novel, I don't think that it is possible that the character of Esther was being acting in that manner. Considering how the character progresses and behaves throughout the book and her sense of morals and such, it may be possible she was truly modest and not behaving in a manner that would be truly considered "coy". Is it possible that that section there could be changed slightly so it would reflect a non-judgemental view of her. Or perhaps look at both sides, from both the feminist and anti-feminist views.
EmilyGreene1984 4:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esther's Description as being "coy", perhaps written from a "feminist" point of view

message: I notice they don't include Mrs. Pardiggle and her boys, nor the elder and younger Turveydrops, although Caddy Jellyby (alone of her family) is included as a major character, which I would dispute.  I'm guessing that is because much of this article seems to derive from the 2005 BBC dramatisation, which dropped the Pardiggles; presumably if it had been prompted by the 1985 series it would have included them, but omitted the Jellybys.  Are there any plans to bring the article back into line with the book? Swiveler (talk) 02:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor Characters

message: The first section of the article described Jarndyce & Jarndyce as concerning  the Manor of Marr. As far as I know this is never mentioned in the novel, so I think this needs to be changed to say that this was a case Dickens had in mind, if indeed he did. Phiz's illustration of Vholes's office seems to have "Maine Estate" written on one of the filing cabinets, though whether this is anything to do with his connection with Richard Carstone is unclear.
14:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manor of Marr 

message: The main article identifies Nemo as "a law writer" but there is no explanation of that elsewhere on the main page.  (Possible inferred meaning from "[Dedlock] recognizes the handwriting ...".) If you've read the novel, seen the film adaptations or know about that era of history then you know what "law writer" is.  If you're reading the main article from a contemporary, naive viewpoint, "law writer" might imply something else.  Nemo was, sort of, a human Xerox machine, paid to neatly copy or rewrite legal documents.  He did not "write law" the way a contemporary legislator or Member of Parliament or member of their staff would write a new law.  I hope someone can explain that better and maybe include it on the main page. AdderUser (talk) 08:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Define or explain "law writer"? 

message: Hi, 
I notice that some original illustrations are being added and removed by two different editors.
Since the article is rather monotonous to look at, these are a great improvement IMHO. Could the editor removing them say why here, please? As far as I understand it, they are certainly out of copyright, being over a century old. Cheers, Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 13:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: The section "Bleak House, Kent" is a shameless piece of advertising with no relevance to the entry  whatever.  Please delete.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.7.46.82 (talk) 11:08, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia not a forum for advertising a hotel! 

message: The current synopsis states that "Tulkinghorn is convinced that Lady Dedlock's secret might threaten the interests of his client, Sir Leicester Dedlock…"
I would strongly suggest that Tulkinghorn is not in the least motivated by the interests of his client, but by his sadistic desire to accumulate his client's, and others' , secrets in order to increase his stranglehold over them. He is a miser of darkness and I find no suggestion in Dickens' text that professional duty plays any role in his thinking (other than as a convenient excuse for underhanded deeds). Indeed, Tulkinghorn's ethical responsibility to Sir Leicester would be to keep the latter informed of his efforts to uncover Lady Dedlock's past and seek Sir Leicester's directives as to whether to proceed or not. Instead, he initiates a clandestine operation of his own accord and when it reaches its culmination, rather than telling Sir Leicester directly, he uses the information for his own enjoyment in humiliating and terrorising Lady Deadlock.
Thus I think the synopsis should be changed to something along the lines of "Tulkinghorn, who takes a sinister glee in accumulating dark and sordid secrets relating to his clients, initiates his own surreptitious investigation into Lady Dedlock's past."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.4.36.201 (talk) 10:24, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tulkinghorn's motives 

message: I cannot argue with a legal historian butI can say from my knowledgeof railways that a date of 1827 is surely a little early. Although trains themselves do not figure there is a reference to the coming network throughout the country and the construction of tunnels and cuttings. As the first railway in the modern sense did not open until 1830 this pouts the action well into the 1830s, I would say.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.27.91 (talk) 06:30, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of setting 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The statement that Esther's aunt had "macabre vigils on her birthday each year" isn't quite true.  One birthday scene is described, in which Esther tries to ferret out what her life story is, but the aunt refuses; although she perhaps drops some hints which Esther will understand later in life.  I believe that no mention of any other birthday (involving the aunt) is made in the novel; and there's no indication that this sort of scene was repeated each year.  If anything, the text simply indicates that her birthday was not celebrated.
Also, "Esther's portion of the narrative is an interesting case study of the Victorian ideal of feminine modesty."  That statement seems mighty close to being an individual person's opinion based on interpretation, to me.  It seems as if it's clearly true; but just the same, I think it's reasonable to question its appropriateness.  Especially with no reference included.
:Thanks for your helpful comments, but please sign! Rwood128 (talk) 17:53, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esther's Birthday; and "modesty."  

message: Substituted at 09:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: First an extract copy from Boodle's: "In Fiction": 
:In Charles Dickens's 1853 novel Bleak House, ch. XII "On The Watch", a satirical paragraph mentions the Lords Boodle and Coodle, Sir Thomas Doodle, the Duke of Foodle, etc., alluding to the famous club and thereby to the closed set of politicians and other powerful men passing power among themselves. [This is taken from the Boodle's article. Rwood128 (talk) 13:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed so, Rwood128 and that is precisely why that quotation had a preamble of "First an extract copy from Boodle's: "In Fiction":"49.195.199.82 (talk) 11:42, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

text: In (Sir) Anthony Parsons's autobiographical "They Say The Lion - Britain's Legacy to the Arabs - A Personal Memoir" ISBN 0-224-02829-4, he includes at p.17 and p.19 two references to "boodles and coodles"; first, in the political establishment that ebbed and flowed around "Nuri Said Pasha" Nuri al-Said, and secondly about that group's influence in precipitating the Chief of the Iraqi General Staff, General Nuruddin Mahmoud out of his office into retirement, during a few days anarchy in Baghdad in 1952. 220.235.50.75 (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The second item above might be included in the Boodle's article rather than in this one. The first item belongs in a discussion of satire in Bleak House, which, so far, is not adequately dealt with. Indeed the subject is only directly mentioned in the lede. This article emphasises plot and character and deals poorly with the other aspects of what is a major novel. Rwood128 (talk) 13:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boodles and Coodles 

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :La Maison d'Âpre-Vent. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 6#La Maison d'Âpre-Vent until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  signed, Rosguill talk 18:30, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "La Maison d'Âpre-Vent" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: Is the recent addition really needed? Seems excessive and probably against policy. Rwood128 (talk) 13:58, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed it (it being I who added it). I wasn't sure whether it was a useful addition, but the fact you've noted this probably settles the question. Celuici (talk) 19:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gallery