Talk:Maccabees

message: This article claims "Maccabees" means "hammer" but  "hammer" is writen "פטיש" and "Macabees" is writen "מכבי". Any thoughts?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alessio.aguirre (talk • contribs) 13:47, 2011 November 2 (UTC)
:"Macabee" should in fact be written "מקבי" and the word you're looking for is "מקבת" which is a war hammer. Poliocretes (talk) 13:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Hammer?

message: I have moved some paragraphs of the later dynasty to the Hasmonean page, where I reckon they fit better in. Also, I added the difference between the two terms Maccabee and Hasmonean.
--Sponsianus 09:27, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved some paragraphs

message: Maccabees is going to require a specific disambiguation page rather than a disambig paragraph at the top of this article. There is now an up and coming Band in the UK which shares the name and it's only a matter of time before they get their own article. Unless anyone has any objections to Maccabees (disambiguation). I'll set to it this evening. Y control 09:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation

message: To my recollection, Judah and Judas are the same person?  There should be internal consistency within the article - any thoughts? - TMac 00:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Judah v Judas Maccabeus

message: Um yeah, Jews do not celebrate Chanukah because of the victory, they celebrate because of the menorah oil burning for 8 days instead of one.  Jews do not celebrate war whatsoever. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.10.51.87 (talk) 06:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Huge misconception 

message: I'm sorry.  that map.  is that serious?  it presents a hook-nosed face, dribbling.  
I don't thing ancient Israel looked like that.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.150.107 (talk) 01:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  joke map 

message: This article is almost identical to Maccabean Revolt.  I propose they be merged.  Marshall46 (talk) 10:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have edited this article so that it now contains all the material that was in Maccabean Revolt but not here; I've also added a bit. This article is now the definitive one and the merge should be to this one.  I'm not sure how to use the merge template so I'd appreciate it if someone more experienced could do it.  Marshall46 (talk) 19:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Merged. Marshall46 (talk) 15:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal

message: The article says that, "as the Maccabees realized how successful they had been, many wanted to continue the revolt as a war of national self-determination."  It also refers to "the war of national liberation".  I suggest that "national self-determination" and "national liberation" are anachronisms, reading back concepts from the 20th century to the 2nd century BCE.  The article also tends to overstate the degree of autonomy achieved by the Maccabeans relative to the Seleucid empire. It would be more accurate and more consistent with modern sources to say that, having won the freedom to practice the Jewish religion and more autonomy for Judea, the Maccabeans continued fighting to win more territory.  Marshall46 (talk) 14:59, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No-one has objected, so I'm going to edit accordingly.  Marshall46 (talk) 22:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The anachronistic phrase "national liberation movement" (which is more appropriate to the 20th century) still remains in the opening paragraph, but I am not sure what to replace it with.  "Army"?  "Guerrilla army"? "Group of warriors"?  Suggestions, please.  Marshall46 (talk) 09:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have used the phrase "Jewish rebel army" instead Marshall46 (talk) 16:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "National self-determination"

message: *The Legacy of the Maccabees - The Maccabee Rebellion
:Austerlitz -- 88.75.205.205 (talk) 17:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Austerlitz -- 88.75.205.205 (talk) 17:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is mentioned in a paper in the Journal of Semitic Studies.  I think it belongs in the article on Onias III, not in the article on Macabbeees.  Please add there if you wish.  Marshall46 (talk) 16:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useful for the article? 

message: The date format has been changed back and forth between BC and BCE.  Wikipedia has no preference for one over the other, but I suggest that BCE is more appropriate for this article.  BCE/CE is becoming increasingly common in historical and academic writing and it is considered to be more neutral in religious terms than BC/AD.  BCE/CE stand for "Before the Common Era/Common Era".  BC/AD stand for "Before Christ/Anno Domini (in the year or Our Lord)".  As this article is about events in Jewish history, the former is prefererable, so I have changed the dates back again.  If any editor wants to undo this, they should explain their reasons here.  Marshall46 (talk) 18:38, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:ERA prohibits changing the established era style in an article "unless there are reasons specific to its content" (emphasis added), and requires prior discussion to seek consensus for the change. Hertz1888 (talk) 14:13, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date format 

message: I have made changes in the summary box.
I have listed the combatants as Jews and Seleucid Empire.  Although the Maccabees did attack Hellenized Jews, the latter were not combatants in the sense that they did not fight the Maccabees.  I have made some changes to "territory" and "results".
In the intro. I have changed Coele-Syria to Israel.  This is, of course, not the state of Israel, but it is the land of Israel.  That makes more sense than Coele-Syria.
Marshall46 (talk) 17:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Combatants 

message: In looking over the references I noticed that the spelling of Victor Tchrikover's name is wrong (spelled as "Tcherikover"). I'm new to editing wikis and don't know how to change it myself. Can someone take care of it? -- Moshe (talk) 19:00, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's spelled "Tcherikover" on the cover of his book.  Marshall46 (talk) 09:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling and Grammar

message: The Maccabees are now described as "a Jewish rebel army who took control of parts of the Land of Israel, which had been a client state of the Seleucid Empire."  I agree with Crotalus Horridus that we need to find a non-POV way of describing what happened.  As I understand it, Judea was part of the Seleucid empire but not directly ruled by the Seleucid king.  It was governed by the High Priest, who was appointed by the king.  I think it is best to describe it as a "client state", though I am open to suggestions.  Marshall46 (talk) 09:36, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think your wording is probably the best choice. Thanks for the suggestion. *** Crotalus *** 17:08, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Tcherikover says Antiochus III appointed a governor. There were taxes but tax exemptions.  Hellenism was promoted but the traditions of the Jews were protected until Antiochus IV "Epiphenes".  Perhaps "client state" is not quite the correct phrase but I can't find a better one at the moment.  Marshall46 (talk) 09:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship between Judea and Seleucids 

message: I have a question: If its true that "Most modern scholars argue that the king was intervening in a civil war between traditionalist Jews in the countryside and Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem," why is the rest of the content on the revolt framed as a war against foreign oppression?  For example:
*"After Antiochus issued his decrees forbidding Jewish religious practice, a rural Jewish priest from Modiin, Mattathias the Hasmonean, sparked the revolt against the Seleucid Empire by refusing to worship the Greek gods."
*"After Mattathias' death about one year later in 166 BCE, his son Judah Maccabee led an army of Jewish dissidents to victory over the Seleucid dynasty in guerrilla warfare, which at first was directed against Jewish collaborators, of whom there were many."
Wouldn't it be incorrect to refer to the Hellenic Jews as "collaborators".  They were just non-revolting Hellenic Jews.  And did Mattathias spark the revolt by refusing to worship the Greek gods or by murdering the Hellenic Jew?  I'm just confused on that point. johnpseudo 18:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question.  The inconsistency reflects the fact that the events were probably first described as the authors of Maccabees described them, as a revolt.  Then subsequent edits brought forward the views of modern scholars.  Tcherikover (1959) says that, having reviewed the theories of modern scholars, it is not easy to explain the origins of the Maccabean wars, either as the Hellenizing drive of Antiochus or of the Jerusalem aristocracy. He does refer to class interest as a possible factor, which is not mentioned in the article.  It needs some sophisticated editing to retain a strong narrative yet still to reflect these uncertainties.  I've made some small changes.   Marshall46 (talk) 10:06, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I will be adding in references to this civil war aspect of the period. Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 17:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civil war vs. War against oppression 

message: I suggest this article is merged with Hasmonean which covers the same events.  It is a better article than this one, drawn from more modern sources. Marshall46 (talk) 11:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: against, see comments in Hasmonean article. Poliocretes (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No-one supports merging and I can see the arguments against it, so I am removing the tags.  However, the overlaps should be reduced.  Marshall46 (talk) 15:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: I don't know how to add it, but one source for the interactions between the Maccabees and the Roman Senate are in I Maccabees 8: 17-32 (NEB). Also, I seem to recall an instructor suggesting that while this was a canny alliance to seek at the time, it brought the Jewish community to Roman attention and may have opened the back door to the later Roman hegemony over the area. If that's true it might be helpful to tie the narrative together further by mentioning it, or if not, to clarify.
Two other thoughts: It might also make sense to at least mention that the events in I and II Maccabees are at some points congruent; the article on the various books doesn't really make that clear, either. And Coele-Syria is used by the translators of some versions of the book (I'm working from the NEB at the moment but I've seen it elsewhere) so even if it's not to be used in general throughout the article, at least one reference explaining its usage might be helpful to those who run across it in this context and are trying to puzzle out the geography issues.96.237.240.126 (talk) 10:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman Senate reference for footnote 

message: There is quite a large number of books, mostly it seems from the seventeenth century, written by Irish writers in Irish and Latin about the Maccabees. For instance,This Irish writer in exile in Salamanca in 1651 wrote a two-volume work on the Maccabees, with 704 pages in Volume 1 alone. This is a good summary of how the Maccabees story was used by the Catholic Irish in the seventeenth century as solace for their war, overthrow and conquest. This article could probably be improved by acknowledging such extensive traditions connected with the Maccabees. 212.129.66.130 (talk) 15:35, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Maccabees & Irish history

message: I think this article is mainly describing the Maccabean Revolt itself, rather than the Maccabees (the brothers of Judah). It also has a military campaignbox, and is much more weightful than the term Maccabees, who are also sufficiently described under Hasmoneans. Would you support renaming to Maccabean Revolt?Greyshark09 (talk) 22:17, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In which case it would need a more detailed description of the Revolt.  It has lacked that for a long time. Marshall46 (talk) 12:16, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't make it an official proposal, just to the reason i needed to hear more opinions. Perhaps splitting it to "Maccabees" and "Maccabean revolt" would be better. I did the same for Simko Shikak, from which i did split the Simko Shikak revolt.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename or split?

message: The article encompasses both description of the Hasmonean leaders named "Maccabees" (the first generation of Hasmoneans) and the event in which they revolted against the Seleucid Empire, in the famous Maccabean Revolt. Like in the case of Simko Shikak, from which Simko Shikak revolt was split, i propose to split Maccabean Revolt, from this article. In addition the article Maccabean Revolt had already existed, but was merged into Maccabees without a proper discussion and reasoning.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no reason for a split, the individual Maccabean leaders already have dedicated pages and yet another split would serve nothing except to create yet another page for what is practically the same subject. As I've already mentioned in a previous disucssion on this page, what we should do is dedicate this article to the revolt itself and remove the details about Hasmonean rule to the Hasmoneans page. Poliocretes (talk) 20:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no easy way to do that, but the fact is Maccabean Revolt is a notable event to have its own page. This page was previously merged with Maccabean Revolt in 2010, without a proper discussion, so i just propose to revert this. Maccabees can later be made a disambiguation page if you like to point to individual Maccabee leaders.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

text: I'm with Poliocretes. Leave as is. --Nemonoman (talk) 22:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Leave it as it is but add material on the revolt. Marshall46 (talk) 16:28, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Concensus to leave as is. Split tag removed. Op47 (talk) 17:03, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Split

message: The claim that possession of the Torah was a capital offence is not substantiated by the source of 1 Mac 60-61.  Unless a source can be provided I will remove it.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 17:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: 1 Mac 57. Marshall46 (talk) 15:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capital offence 

message: One should not mistake the understanding of the proper etymology and spelling is not merely an academic exercise. A whole spate of material have been published, both in English and Hebrew, to discuss the 'Maccabees' surname etymology.  Hatam Sofer attempts to show that correct to the name Machabee.  We should briefly discuss here in the TalkPage the name Machabee and their common variations in Greek, Latim and than sefaradi ladino. I added on the beginning of the article, variations of Maccabees in Latin, and Sefaradi-Ladino, also with Latim root that is important to extend the knowledge of this name-surname. Levin, in his Mi-Boker ad Erev, cites explanations including that if makbas means a hammer it is not a large hammer but instead a small one used by a blacksmith. It could also be possible that, because of the extensive collection of Pagan Greek statues and idolatrous shrines that had sprouted up throughout Judea and the surrounding area, Judas may have also been dubbed the 'Hammer' due to his propensity to smash any idol or statue which he encountered into as many pieces as possible.What is certain is that Machabees has it’s Latim variations as Machabi, and Machado (from latim ‘marculatum’ that means ‘Hammer’. Levin rejects Munks explanation that Machabee refers to Hammer as used as an honorific for Charles Martel - Martel the Hammer - for his victory over the Muslims between Tours and Poitiers.JewishResearcher (talk) 01:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: While Hellenism did much to erode and seduce the Jewish culture, I think it notably skewed to state or imply (as this article does) that Greek sports were totally against the indigenous culture of Judea. Did Judeans not play sports in their spare time? Of course they did! The content concerning Greek sports upon this page must be clarified.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.26.18 (talk) 22:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can tell, the blame isn't really being placed with the sports. The problem was not the sports themselves, but the cultural atmosphere that surrounded them. Among Hellenist Jews, circumcision became less and less common as they assimilated to Greek culture. The lack of foreskin, which was very visible in the Hellenist/gentile atmosphere of the gymnasium, was seen as non-masculine, and sometimes also as immodest, as many ancient cultures considered that a man was not truly naked unless his foreskin was retracted. To solve the problem of fitting into Hellenist culture, many Jews underwent primitive procedures to restore the foreskin, and a likely greater number discontinued the practice of circumcising their sons. In summary, it wasn't the mere fact that the Jews participated in Greek recreation, but what they did to "fit in" once they began participating. I hope that addresses your concerns. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 02:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

text: I'm not an expert on this topic, but there's probably a lot more to it than circumcision. The Greek concept of sport was strongly linked to paganism (at least originally), and the Jews may well have objected to the symbolism.Nojamus (talk) 23:22, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Tretchikov (Hellenistic Civilisation and the Jews, p.350) writes that "at the beginning of the Roman period, the Jews made various attempts to penetrate the citizen-class, and one of their ways of doing this was to obtain an education in the gymnasium.  Greek athletic life, however, was carried on in a Greek religious setting, and was saturated with memories of Greek mythology and Greek classical literature; and not for nothing did II Maccabees regarded the establishment of the gymnasium at Jerusalem as 'the acme of Hellenism' (4:13)  But Diaspora Jewry thought differently.  Philo saw the life of athletics ... as an everyday phenomenon and found no fault with it.  ...  [T]here is no doubt that the education of young Jews in the gymnasia opened them to the way to a deeper understanding of Greek culture as a whole." Marshall46 (talk) 12:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek Games 

message: Please see Talk:Eleazar Avaran#Naming conventions on WP for the Maccabees. Discussion: How should the original Maccabees, the father Mattathias and his five sons, John (Johanan), Simon, Judah (Judas), Eleazar (Elazar), Jonathan be known on Wikipedia? Thank you, IZAK (talk) 11:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, both books are different. I think the first Book of the Maccabees recounts the story of militar heroism, while the second book exalts Jewish martydoom, although it also mentions battles. Also the second book talks about supernatural miracles (angels beating up the Greek official).--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 20:04, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

text: Aviv28, this suggestion belongs in a separate section of the Talk Page, not under a section entitled "Naming Conventions". Also, this contribution would make more sense in the wiki article Books of the Maccabees. Finally, though the idea of contrasting the two books is promising, there is a problem with clarity which needs solving. You seem to raise three points of difference: 1) inclusion of beliefs on martyrdom and resurrection. 2) Tone. 3) Composition. As they currently stand in your description, none of these three points is entirely clear. Are you going to clarify them better? Re 1, what exactly is the difference - does one book believe in martyrdom while the other doesn't? Re 2, you write "non-objective and sober" which seems contradictory. Did you mean "objective and sober"? Re 3, readers don't know who Mattathias is and why his mention would serve to legitimize the dynasty. Readers also don't know in what way the epistles contradict the historical narrative (historical narrative of what?).Chapmansh (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming conventions on WP for the Maccabees 

message: There are two very similar pages about this subject; this one and Maccabean Revolt. It's confusing and means a lot of editing effort is wasted. Apparently these pages were merged in 2011 but then they diverged again. Should they be merged again? ImTheIP (talk) 20:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging again? 

message: I removed mention of forced conversions in the lede, since there needs to be a clearer explanation and citation in the body if this information is going to be mentioned in this article. The info doesn't necessarily need stay in this article, given that reliable sources say the following:
:Rabbi Jeremy Rosen in J-Wire: "Forced conversion was something new then...Its compulsive element started when Antiochus  IV set about trying to convert the Jews of Israel to Hellenism and Jews were forbidden to circumcise their children or be killed (1Maccabees 1:48). In response, the Hasmonean emphasis on circumcision was, initially, aimed only at Jews who had reversed their circumcisions to assimilate into Greek society. The campaigns of Judah and Jonathan against other communities were to defend Jews who had been attacked by  Greek and Ammonite rivals. It was John Hyrcanus, of the next generation who it was claimed initiated forced conversion on the Idumean enemy as an alternative to obliteration...Why did Second Temple-era Jewish leaders coerce a foreign population to adopt Judaism? There was no Biblical precedent for coercion...Some historians argue that the stories of forced circumcision are not historical and reflected anti-Hasmonean propaganda that depicted the Jewish kings as religiously intolerant tyrants. The Talmud is absolutely clear that conversion to Judaism should be voluntary and motivated by sincere conviction (TB Yevamot 24b)...Unlike other religions, Judaism was not evangelical and did not believe that only by becoming a Jew could you be a good human being through the one true path to God. This issue of conversion remains a huge area of conflict in Judaism today between those who think that it should only be an act of sincere commitment to a Jewish way of life and those who believe it should be a way of retaining minimal Jewish identity even by those who have no interest in the Jewish religion. But certainly, no one believes in forced conversion and absolutely not in compelling circumcision."
:From The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion (2 ed.): "The forced conversion of the Idumeans (Edomites) to Judaism by John Hyrcanus (135–105 bce) is the only such recorded case of forced conversions to Judaism. On the other hand, Jews have been the victims of forced conversions throughout their history."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:E050:812F:89D2:B618:BB67:1816 (talk) 08:43, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forced conversions?