Talk:Spanish and Portuguese Jews

message: Reading this article I´m convinced it as to do more with jews from Portugal then from both iberian countries. So, it´s should be called Portuguese Jews, I supose. Who else agrees ? User:Mistico
:There should be an article like this, but this page belongs to the article Sephardi Jews. Marcus 22:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An emphatic “no”: The topic here is a well-defined topic by its own and is clearly distinguished from both Sephardi Jews and Jews in Portugal. The history of the Spanish and Portuguese Jews includes the joining together of communities of former Spanish Conversos and communities of former Portuguese Conversos. The Spanish and Portuguese Jews]] are characterised by a liturgy which is different from that of other Sephardim — including those of our times’ Spain and Portugal in its relative absence of cabbalistic elements, the omission of the introductory psalms before Mizmor leDavid: Habu lA. in the ‘Arbit shel Shabbat; the ta‘amím for Torah (which are somewhat similar to the coastal Moroccan ta‘amim); the pronunciation of Hebrew (which includes the realisation of  as a velar nasal (ng) and the realisation of ) as b rather than v); the loss of Spanish or Portuguese as a first language (but keeping a mixture of the two in parts of the liturgy); various terminology (like reza book for ‘siddur’, esnoga for ‘synagogue’; Haggadáh for the ‘Passover seder’ (i.e., the meal itself)); a characteristic musical representation of the ritual in the form of flowing melodies with a more-or-less distinctive Renaissance through Classicism feel and with a (post-)Baroque solistic embellishment technique still preserved today; etc. -- Olve 01:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see the 18,200 Google hits for documentation that this topic exists. -- Olve 01:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Good point -- I agree! Salut0 20:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Portuguese or spanish jews, or simply Portuguese jews

message: The article says: "the Livorno (Leghorn) tradition, however, includes many of the cabbalistic additions found in most other Sephardi traditions. The current London minhag follows the Livorno tradition in this respect."
What is the authority for this proposition?  In my experience the London minhag is very much within the Spanish and Portuguese mainstream and has relatively few cabbalistic additions, though it may be that a detailed comparison with, say, Amsterdam would reveal a few.  A certain number of cabbalistic usages (e.g. the seder for Tu Bishvat) had crept into both the London and the Amsterdam traditions by the eighteenth century, and have since been dropped: some, like the custom of performing the Birkat Hakohanim every Shabbat, are now stronger in Amsterdam than in London.
I think the confusion may arise from the phrase "the Livorno tradition".  It is important to distinguish between the usages of Livorno for home consumption, which were basically similar to other Spanish and Portuguese communities, and the "Livorno siddurim" which were printed in the nineteenth century for the use of the Sephardic world as a whole.  These latter had a much more cabbalistic character, and most of the Oriental rites of today are based on them, with certain local variations.  I do not know whether there was any special affinity between London and the domestic Livorno tradition, but certainly London has never adopted the "Livorno siddurim" for export.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The main example I can think of right here and now is the text of the birkat hammazon, where the current London minhag as printed in, e.g., 1965, has (more-or-less) all of the cabbalistic additions otherwise found in the Livorno tradition and its offshoots. Compare it with the older Spanish and Portuguese version (), and you will probably see what I mean. I agree that this is on a relatively detailed level, and I also agree that there are some (although seemingly less textually “dramatic”) examples going the other way. -- Olve 22:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

text: How does this look: “The current London minhag is generally close to the Amsterdam minhag, but follows the Livorno tradition in some details — most notably in the Birkat hammazon.”? -- Olve 22:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine.  I'll have to check on the Birkat Hamazon, as there are complications.  For example, within the Oriental group there is a difference between the Livorno (for export) tradition, as found in Judaeo-Spanish communities and Syria, and the Baghdadi version, also used in the Jerusalem Sephardic tradition.  Also the 16th c Venice print of the Sp & P version has some distinctively Italian features (such as the use of "Nahamenu") that do not figure in any other version. -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 08:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ritual 

message: And by the way, should we count Gibraltar as part of the Sp&P family?  Or is it closer to the Spanish-Moroccan (Tetuan, Melilla etc.) family?  Or are there some synagogues of each kind?  Please enlighten me, someone who has been there! --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I am aware, there are 4 or 5 synagogues almost all of which are S&P.  The ties between London and Gibraltar are great (E.g. Hazzan Beniso or Abraham Levy).  Although, I have never been there, some of my family members have and my understanding is that Gibraltar is certainly an S&P community.Guedalia D'Montenegro 15:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  The links between London and Gibraltar are certainly close, but so are the links between London and the Spanish-Moroccan group generally (e.g. Halfon Benarroch); liturgically speaking, the S&P minhag is derived from the Spanish-Moroccan (that is, from an early form of it: the current Spanish-Moroccan rite has presumably been Lurianified in the same way as the Arab-Moroccan and Oriental Sephardic rites), with some Italian influence.  We really need someone who has been to Tangier or Tetuan as well, to see just where Gib fits on the spectrum between the two groups.  --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gibraltar

message: Does anyone here knows about the  cultural resistance of some S&P communities to avoid wearing yarmujke as being an Askhenazi custom? I've seen pictures of S&P Synagogues even into in the 1970's with men wearing top and fedora hats, and even today birettas are common in Eastern Sephardi communities, or those fancy chef-like hats used in the Rome community.
:My father grew up in Manchester (Queenston Road) in the 1920s and in his time kippot were completely unheard of: everyone wore hats.  Even in the late 1970s when I visited there, there was a notice on the door saying that everyone should wear hats and that a kippah was not sufficient.  On more recent visits, I have noticed the kippot creeping in.
:As concerns London, I have been attending Lauderdale Road and Bevis Marks on and off since the mid-1970s.  Rabbis, parnasim and many of the more regular attenders always wear top hats, and keep them in the synagogue vestry for the purpose; though when they take their hats off you will usually find a kippah underneath.  The remaining attenders are divided about equally between Homburg hats and kippot.
:I don't know whether this is a specifically Sephardi thing or just old-fashioned Anglo-Jewish.  Until the War, top hats were the rule in Ashkenazi synagogues as well (even in strictly Orthodox ones like Adath Israel), and in the 70s and 80s it was still normal for wardens to wear morning dress including top hats.  At Eastern Sephardi and Mizrahi services I have attended, kippot now seem fairly normal.  Some people (in all communities, including Reform) like those embroidered pill-box affairs used by the Bokharans in Jerusalem. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sephardi Kippoth 

message: Hello Guedalia D'Montenegro! Why did you revert my addition of WikiProject Portugal & WikiProject Spain to this article? The connection seems obvious...The Ogre 13:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine because the article has nothing to do with the history of either Spain or Portugal: it is about the descendants of Jews who left those countries.  There are already separate articles on History of the Jews in Spain and History of the Jews in Portugal. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe it's connected or related, even if only lateraly, to the history, culture and languages (to say the least...) of the countries in the Iberian Peninsula. WikiProject tags are not a way of asserting propriety, they are just a way of flagging to the participants in each project that a specific article may concern them and should need some attention. Therefore I ask for the tags of WikiProject Portugal & WikiProject Spain be maintained. The Ogre 16:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Hello Guedalia D'Montenegro! I see your point, but couldn't one argue that the fate and history of any group departing from certain area or country, even if it disconnects itlsefl from that area of origin, still, in a way, pertains or interests that area or country? Particularly when that group carries and changes cultural traits, such as language, adquired in the area of origin? Furthermore, disconnecting Spanish and Portuguese Jews from Spain and Portugal is a bit accepting the sucess of those who, historically, tried to make them go way... I personaly was touched when, in the Amsterdam Esnoga, saw an inscription refering to the comunity as We Portuguese of the Nation of Israel! Again I say, "WikiProject tags are not a way of asserting propriety, they are just a way of flagging to the participants in each project that a specific article may concern them and should need some attention." And again I plead "I ask for the tags of WikiProject Portugal & WikiProject Spain be maintained." The Ogre 23:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: And certainly I see no point in having a tag for Spain and not for Portugal: all Sephardim (in the strict sense) have a link with Spain, but the distinguishing characteristic of our group is the link with Portugal: see next section. We should have both tags or neither. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Portugal & WikiProject Spain 

message: The following: "The use of the terms Portuguese Jews and Jews of the Portuguese nation in some areas (mainly in the Netherlands and Hamburg/Scandinavia) seems to have arisen primarily as a way for the Spanish and Portuguese Jews to distance themselves from Spain in the times of political tension and war between Spain and the Netherlands in the 17th century."... might be true for the Netherlands. The comunities of Hamburg an Altona were of Portuguese heritage. They used Portuguese as langugage in the records of the synagogue and the epitaphs of the Altona cemetery are Portugese an Hebrew. There was also a considerable number of Portuguese christians in Hamburg (in the 17. century). --Catrin 03:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, very much so. And even for the Netherlands, one must say that in the Amsterdam Esnoga you find writing in Hebrew and Portuguese, not Spanish, and somewhere in there it is written in perfect Portuguese "Nós, os Portugueses da Nação", meaning, "We, the Portuguese of the Nation", Nation meaning Israel. The Ogre 15:00, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the early history of all these communities, the Portuguese element had the whip hand: the by-laws of the Pisa and Livorno communities were all written in (not very good) Portuguese.  One could even posit that the expression "Spanish AND Portuguese" is meant literally: Jews of Spanish background who later left the Iberian peninsula via Portugal. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Touché. -- Olve 18:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portuguese nation 

message: Can someone please stop correcting "Spanish and Portuguese" to "Portuguese and Spanish".  "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" is the accepted term of art for the ethno-religious group to which this article relates.  It is not a case of "Spanish Jews" plus "Portuguese Jews", where neutrality requires alphabetical precedence. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Heartfelt plea

message: There have been several commercially available recordings of S&P music released over the past few years.  [In fact one was released by Hazzan Daniel Halfon just a few weeks ago.]  I wonder if we could add a section about these recordings to the article, or, whether that would be an improper commercialization of this article.  I can think of 7, in print, commercially available recordings that have been released in the past 5 years or so.  Several more if we include the communities of Florence / Leghorn.  These recordings may be of use to people interested in this article.  Any thoughts?Guedalia D'Montenegro  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 06:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Odd, that.  Logically it should be just as acceptable to cite a particular CD with relevant information as to cite a particular book, as books too are commercial products.  But except for articles about particular artists we never see "Discography" on Wikipedia. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take this as encouragement and post a discography tonight.  Guedalia D'Montenegro (talk) 16:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The right approach would probably be to give titles and reference details of recordings, but not links to organisations selling them. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 08:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Commercial Recordings

message: As you can see, I've been cleaning up the section on particular communities.  But there are several loose ends concerning the communities of Suriname and the Caribbean; can someone give me some more information?
#Suriname.  I'd always understood that Sedek Ve Shalom was still a functioning Spanish and Portuguese community.  But when I Googled recently, it appeared that there were so few Jews left that it had merged with Neve Shalom and that the services now took place there; what kind of services it didn't say.  Another site suggested that Neve Shalom is now Conservative.  But as these were both the equivalent of personal blogs I didn't feel I could amend the article on this basis.
#Barbados.  The article on Nidhe Israel Synagogue has an infobox saying that the synagogue is functioning, that it is Conservative but uses the Sephardi rite.  On searching elsewhere all I find is that it was restored at the instance of the local Jewish community (which had previously formed a congregation, but I don't know whether it had a synagogue elsewhere) and sometimes used for services; but it doesn't say whether it is now a separate congregation, and if so of what kind.
#Cayman Islands.  The list of communities originally included an entry "Cayman Islands" without more.  So far as I can discover, the only synagogue on the Caymans is Beth Shalom on Cayman Brac, which appears to be little more than a family chapel, and has a Sephardi Sefer Torah; but whether there is a congregation, and if so whether this is Spanish and Portuguese, or Orthodox/Conservative/Reform, does not appear.
None of these synagogues appears to have its own website.  Has anyone been in any of these places recently enough to know the current position? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 13:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caribbean 

message: The main synagogue in Madrid describes itself as "Sephardi".  But is it Spanish and Portuguese in the same sense as the others described?  If so, it should be included.
Also, there is the case of Ceuta and Melilla.  Demographically and liturgically they occupy a mid-point between Gibraltar (which is generally counted as Spanish and Portuguese) and Tetuan/Tangiers (which is generally counted as Spanish-Moroccan), though all three are pretty similar; and they regard themselves as the sole surviving continuation of the pre-expulsion community of Spain.  Do we include them? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 11:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Spain

message: Hello, I have been told by congregants at S&P synagogue that it is the S&P minhag to discourage use of kippot outside of synagogue/ritual practices, in order to maintain the difference between kedusha and not. Does anyone have a source for this so I can post it in this wiki article?
Thanks  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.210.115 (talk) 12:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Source needed for use of kippot

message: I have not heard that the term 'Spanish and Portuguese Jews' is restricted to those Sephardim whose family histories included an interlude of forced conversion. Does anyone have a source for this claim?CharlesMartel (talk) 16:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. The mention of anusim was to explain the origin of the communities, not their present membership. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 16:46, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Necessary connection with Anusim

message: En el artículo se identifica a Nicolás Maduro, presidente de Venezuela, como descendiente de sefarditas. Esto no ha sido probado por ninguna investigación, ni histórica ni genealógica. Es un rumor que se ha dispersado a través de distintos medios de comunicación, basado en su apellido paterno, que en la isla de Curazao se reconoce como Levy-Maduro, de profunda raigambre sefardita,como lo fundamentó Isaac Emmanuel en su obra monumental "History of the Jews of the Netherland Antilles". Considero que hasta tanto no esté documentada su ascendencia sefardita es incorrecto incluirlo en dicha lista.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blancaisa (talk • contribs) 02:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Descendientes de judíos portugueses y españoles

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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