Talk:May Pang/Archive 1

message: I think the Wiki community understands where your coming from.  Anything Ms. Pang says isn't reliable info.  Films, interviews and books by others aren't reliable sources.  What John Wiener opines in an interview is.  I'm not being uncivil to you, but as long as you choose to bring up private email, I love your freudian "excerpt from a tell-all is damagine not only to Lennon, but to May Pang and Yoko One as well"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotcop2 (talk • contribs) 04:43, August 28, 2007 (UTC) 
I am not suggesting that she has no recourse here. But to include a lot of her claims without outside, neutral substantiation is reckless. (and really, you want to poke fun at my typos? Yeah, that works wonders for engendering respect amongst the self-proclaimed "Beatles experts". LOL)- Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol, I just figured out why you kept changing the spelling of what I am presuming are my typos - sorry, it was no Freudian slip at all; I just have lousy typing skills. And by the way, bringing quotes from private emails is pretty bad form. If you weren't aware of this most basic of netiquette, please do not bother to communicate with me by private email again. I won' communicate with folk who use my responses in private email as ammo in their partisan drive. See that part there? That's where you lost a little bit of my assumption of good faith, right there. You might wish you hadn't lost it, somewhere down the line. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

text: And yet, you felt compelled to keep changing it back. Sigh. Okay. Whatever. Moving on... - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Or it could be a simply be a precursor to having you blocked for being disruptive and uncivil. Wanna guess which my money is on? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 01:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  That makes sense 

message: "While she seems to have a good life and many things going for her, she chooses to and remains to this day hopelessly obsessed with John Lennon."
At worst it's biased, and at best it's too conversational for this venue.  Is there a citation that could demonstrate the same idea appropriately, or should the line simply be pulled? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.52.69.217 (talk • contribs) .
:You're right. I just removed that sentence; please feel free to copyedit the rest of the article to make it more accurate and neutral. --Bk0 (Talk) 01:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This seems terribly biased and unencyclopedic: 

message: There has been an extreme attempt to bias this article in Pang's favor, possibly by Pang herself (the user is MsMP), which included the deletion of an entire section that appropriately discussed criticism of her book without any discussion whatsoever.  Everyone please watch this article.
74.39.18.117 20:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been a second vandalism attempt that was again reverted. I'd also like to add that the comment that claims that Yoko Ono has "verified" in "several interviews over the years" that John Lennon and May Pang were "emotionally involved" (from which the last user attempted to removed the "citation needed" tag) is likely untrue, as Ono tends to delegate such questions to her publicist, Eliiot Mintz.  I've read many interviews with Ms. Ono and I don't recall her ever mentioning Pang by name.  That's not to say she never has, but it's unlikely. Layla12275 19:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Amazing...just note in reading this article how incredibly delusional Pang is.  "WE did Rock n Roll..." Wasn't she just a P.A., professionally speaking (obviously her role in keeping John's bed warm should have nothing to do with that album)?  She honestly seems to believe that not only was John Lennon in love with her, she actually had an impact on his art.  Wow. 128.226.221.151 23:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Vandalism 

message: I notice that this Talk page was recently almost entirely deleted and had to be restored.  I made a comment on the user's talk page that this is major vandalism, and if it was a mistake to please be more mindful in the future.  In case it wasn't a mistake--PLEASE keep an eye on this page. Layla12275 02:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism of Talk Page 

message: Okay, SixString1965 is very likely another attempt by May to revise history.  Round of applause to LaraLove for reporting this "personal friend of May Pang" and for helping to revert her vandalism.
Layla12275 05:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: User was banned.  Well done, LaraLove.  He seems to think that I was the one to have reported him.  Layla12275 05:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, but it was no problem. However, the article does need to be sourced to reliable sources and correctly formatted. Additionally, the use of the book cover image in the infobox is inappropriate. Infoboxes should only include free use images. However, even in the body of the article, the book covers use needs to be justified with a detailed fair use rationale. Lara♥Love 06:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks so much again for your help.  I agree about the sources, but I didn't write the majority of the initial article, so I don't know where the information in the Bio section came from, though much of it can be sourced from Pang's book.  I also don't have any information for you about the picture.  The Criticism section is sourced, though.  Most, if not all, comes from the Wiener interview and the Coleman book. Layla12275 06:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Working on sourcing the criticism section now.  Reported the anon IP address that ignored about four or five warnings--apparently May is threatening to sue over being fairly criticized.  Interesting.  Layla12275 06:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  May Returns 

message: The article really needs a major overhaul - to me it reads like an article about her book, not a balanced biographical article about her.  It is too colloquial in places, and in serious need of sourcing throughout. A copyedit would be helpful.  Should keep WP:BLP in mind too, of course.  Tvoz |talk 06:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Criticism section should be fairly adequately sourced now, though I'm not sure about the proper format. Layla12275 06:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I'd also add that most of it is about her book because the book is really her claim to fame, and its sensationalism is really the only reason she's a person of note.  Of course, her relationship with Lennon is a reason as well, but other than the fact that she was his PA and that they had a physical relationship, her other claims are widely disputed--and also contradicted by the fact that Lennon was vacationing on another continent during many of the rendezvouses she suggests.  Other biographical information would be welcome, of course, but I don't know where we would find that.  Thanks so much for the help! Layla12275 06:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've formatted the refs. See WP:CITE and WP:CIT for help with future formatting of references. Lara♥Love 14:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perfect; I was wondering where to find that; thank you! 24.161.43.168 21:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: needs work

message: While promoting his book at various Beatles conventions, he told the audiences he never actually met Lennon, which I included the first description of Wiener on this page.
Hotcop2 13:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  JON WIENER 

message: While Lennon acknowledges his excessive drinking during this time in his 1980 Playboy interview, nowhere does he make mention of "numerous affairs with other women."  Ms. Pang cites the drinking and examples of two occasions of John's straying from her, but the Wiki passage was worded in such a way that implied Lennon acknowledged numerous affairs in his 1980 Playboy, which is not true.
In fact, Lennon's references to his excessive drinking were only in regards to his and May's time together in Los Angeles, as he names drinking buddies Keith Moon, Harry Nilsson, Ringo -- a clear reference to the beach house they all shared together in March 1974.  Lennon and Pang spent the first 5 months of their relationship primarily in Los Angeles, altho they were in New York for lengthy breaks throughout.  They spent the final 13 months of their 18-month "lost weekend" in New York, where there are no incidents of excessive drinking, and Lennon was quite productive -- completing Nilsson's Pussy Cats album, his own Walls and Bridges and Rock N Roll albums and numerous musical projects with Elton John, Ringo Starr, Mick Jagger.
The two Troubadour incidents (when John wore a Kotex on his forehead and, two weeks later, when he was thrown out of the club for drunkenly heckling the Smothers Brothers) both occured in March, 1974, while the wild, chaotic alcohol-fuel Spector "Rock N Roll" sessions were in December.  So, out of the the 18-month period, the three widely documented instances of Lennon's drunkenness spanned a period of four months.
The only acknowledgement of Lennon feeling bad (and indulging) in New York during this period refers to his stage jitters when performing with Elton John at Madison Square Garden, November 28, 1974, sadly Lennon's last major public appearance.
Hotcop2 16:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  LENNON'S PLAYBOY INTERVIEW 

message: Now that all the clutter has been cleared from this page, and we're spared book reviews of Albert Goldman and character assassinations, I cut and pasted some paragraphs and added some detail to make an attempt at a more cohesive, flowing biographical entry.
I also eliminated the Amazon books reference as this indeed is not a forum for advertising.
Hotcop2 01:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better flow 

message: I've added a short passage from the Kane book which quotes Lennon himself about this period in his life.  Moreover, Kane got the cooperation of both Yoko Ono and May Pang and went into depth about the "Lost Weekend" period. 
Hotcop2 16:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Larry Kane's "Lennon Revealed" 

message: I've removed the majority of the biography section, as is horrifically unencyclopedic. Since when do we essentially parrot a tell-all book that doesn't bother citing itw own sources? Please do not re-add ANY of it without notable, verifiable and reliable information, As per WP:BLP, it will stay removed until then. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of uncited material

message: is well documented in movies, interviews and books other than her own.  Her Wiki page was turned into a book review by the same "helpful" person who has been cyberstalking Ms. Pang for two years and had you do these changes.  If one simply stated the facts of her life, you (or the helpful one) would want every single line cited.  So sources from book are mentioned.  And why would you delete the bio portion and just keep the criticism of her book?
Ms. Pang was part of Mr. Lennon's life and that's reality.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotcop2 (talk • contribs) 01:44, August 28, 2007 (UTC) 
::Dude, did you just accuse me of working alongside this LucyLennon person you ranted about tme in a private email? Are you trying to get blocked for uncivility and personal attacks? lol. Seriously, knock it off.
::Why did I delete the bio portion and keep the criticism? Hmm, could it be that the criticism portion had reliable, citable sources whereas the bio went utterly uncited (except for some trashy tell-all - which, btw, we are supposed to use the sources - if any - that were listed in the book)? Yep, that was why. 
::You know what? ˆIf you think tha tI am part of this vast, faintly-unhinged anti-Lennon community, follow the advice I've given you in private email, on your Talk page and here - go to an admin at the BLP noticeboard and take it up with them. I am guessing that this hasn't been done because you are both smart enough to know what shaky ground the provenance and reliability of the remarks are on. 
::If you can provide solid, reliable, verifiable citations that indicate any of the May Pang remarks (and don't insult either of us by trying to include the tell-all without the original citations hat are likely in the endnotes of the book), then the statements can return. Understand that, because it is a BLP, it will undego the greatest amount of scrutiny. I am going to sidestep AGF for a moment and caution you against inventing citations. I will lead the effort to have you banned if that sort of nonsense occurs. That said (and AGF back on), I am willing to help you work within the rules to include as much of the remarks as possible. I will not allow anyone to sidestep the rules. Lennon's article, and the BLP's of those who knew him, deserve better than that. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pang's Story 

message: it will be revisited in a couple of days, sources will be cited, and it will look more like a biographical entry in an encyclopedia than a gossip rag.  ok?  cool Hotcop2 04:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems fair - I don't see that this is an emergency. A few days shouldn't be a problem. Tvoz |talk 04:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. And Cop? You don't need to put your sig on a brand new line, bud. All it does it take up space. We know your edits are from you, so put your sig next to them. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

text: nifty. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's take a break from the page 

message: We cannot use citations taken from About.com, as the citatiosn from there aren't really stable or reliable. Maybe someone should track down the source About is using and verify its provenance? Either way, the About.com citation will have to be removed soon. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC
Yeah Arcayne, I agree on that About.com thing. It really doesn't have any meat and potatoes to it.  I'll try to hunt down a better source.Sixstring1965 00:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a better source. Sixstring1965 00:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome work, Six. I'll check it out. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 02:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, omce, when i was looking for a quote for the Children of Men article, I actually sent an email to the studio to get a transcript of an interview. They were happy to provide it, via email. Maybe you could go old skool, and send Newsweek an email? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

text: In-line citations from books are very welcome indeed. andreasegde  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andreasegde (talk • contribs) 16:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wall of Sound citation

message: We should have no problem with this photo. Hotcop2 (talk) 19:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, and don't forget it! :) --andreasegde (talk) 06:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo 

message: Where did the Chinese characters go? Hotcop2 (talk) 01:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NAME