Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Guitarists/Archive 1

message: I hope to get some great articles established about guitarists, as well as improving existing ones.  All comments are welcomed and encouraged, as this is the first WikiProject I have set up. --Aguerriero (talk) 22:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welcome to WikiProject Guitarists 

message: Can notable mean "Signature models"? Since many guitarists have been bestowed with their own Sig model, does that make it "notable" enough to mention in the box? Anger22 17:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with this notion.  Usually any guitar that a guitarist endorses becomes notable because they end up using it constantly, per their endorsement agreement. --Aguerriero (talk) 12:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick question to Project members RE:Notable

message: An anon has been trying to edit warring a POV/original research paragraph into the Eddie Van Halen article recently. It is replaced as often as it's removed. I took the time to review the edit history of the article and found that this same IP has been quite busy with the article for quite some time. The result is that the article is written very poorly and is oozing with POV, original research and nary a citation to be found. I was going to put a {noncompliant} tag on it and then attempt a possible cleanup. But since this falls more into this projects mandate I thought I would bring it up here first. If any members have a chance to review the article it would be a good thing because right now it's horrible. Fair Deal 16:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you tried engaging the user (I know it is difficult with IP users) about the situation?  What I would do is try to talk to the user, then try to obtain a rough consensus on the article talk page about whether the paragraph is appropriate.  If the user is still persisting, you may have to take action informally through the Mediation Cabal or formally through Requests for Mediation.  In the mean time, anyone here who is interested can take a look at the article quality and maybe help out. --Aguerriero (talk) 14:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick question for project members

message: Hello, I just added myself as a member of this project, and as I went on to do my first infobox, I noticed that there is a blank space at the top of the article that is caused by the infobox. It can be seen both in the Mark Knopfler article and in the article I just added an infobox which is Dave Murray (musician). But strangely this blank space cannot be found in the Eddie Van Halen article. So what's up? — Prodigenous Zee - 01:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is strange... I will have more time to look into it tomorrow.  I'll see if I can figure it out.  In the mean time, if anyone wants to take a crack at it, be my guest. :) --Aguerriero (talk) 02:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I went to look at it today and it appears that Freakofnurture fixed it.  What a good samaritan! --Aguerriero (talk) 20:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox causes blank space 

message: There is a section in the Yngwie Malmsteen biography entitled, "See you in Tokyo, bitch!"  Apparently, it attempts to explain the infamous fight between Malmsteen and one of the flight attendants aboard an airplane he was on, but the section is very poorly written, written in the language of an incompetent, clueless teen and, as far as I can remember, somewhat erroneous.  I believe the statement uttered by Malmsteen at the time was something along the lines of "You've unleashed the fuckin' fury!"  Could someone more knowledgeable please alleviate this? --70.117.198.88 23:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Avast! Another guitarist article in need of help.  That paragraph is definitely a loser - needs to be rewritten and sourced, or just deleted.  I will see today if I can find anything on that event. --Aguerriero (talk) 14:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies, but I just noticed that Anger22 has already fixed the section.  I was commenting on the previous version from a couple days ago.  Way to go! --Aguerriero (talk) 14:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Yngwie Malmsteen]] article in need of cleanup 

message: An IP just tagged the "Ted" article as {totallydisputed} then left the dubious announcement on the talk page that the whole thing needed to be re-written??? I don't seem to see any real disputes of any magnitude on the talk page. The tagging appears to be more in line with "Anti-Ted" trolling than with any actual disputed content. The article could use more citations(but then again...they all could). Perhaps your project members should watch this one. 142.166.239.76 22:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed content in the [[Ted Nugent]] article

message: I've nominated this article for a minor featured article review because requests for references and expansion of stub sections have gone unacted upon. Hopefully someone from this project can help. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Prince (musician)]] 

message: I was going to edit and "wikify" the Tom Scholz article. The article read a little too slick so after a bit of web snooping...I discovered that the bulk of the article was a "cut 'n paste" job from an external website. Perhaps as project members are browsing through the guitarists articles(especially the more obscure ones) they could do a quick web check just to be double sure that the article isn't a hack job. I didn't delete the "procured" text yet I just tagged it. I will track down an Admin to pass judgement on it. Cheers and take care! Anger22 01:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick note to project members re: copyvio content

message: This article could do with... well, anything, really. The magazine's been around a while (nearly 40 years) and has quite a substantial circulation. It deserves a decent article. MightyMoose22 >Abort, Retry, Fail?_ 18:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hard to find sources for information about this magazine that aren't this magazine... :) --Aguerriero (talk) 14:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why I haven't done it myself. :) MightyMoose22 >Abort, Retry, Fail?_ 14:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Guitar Player]] magazine

message: Hi I have decided to join the project. And I would like to add some guitarists from Indonesia, my home country, how about that? 
Cheers, Imoeng 11:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds great, and thanks for joining!  So far we have mostly American and European guitarists, so it will be welcome to diversify! --Aguerriero (talk) 14:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ..and Canadian guitarists too!!!! Don't forget us Canucks now !!! :D  Anger22 17:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Erg, how American of me.  Sorry.  I even grew up in Michigan - you'd think I'd know better! :) --Aguerriero (talk) 18:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick hi and question

message: Have had a brief discussion with Aguerriero about expanding the project scope to include more than just "guitarist" articles. We discussed the merit of including other  "guitar related articles" (IE: manufacturers, models, effects etc). My own pet-peeve on these other articles was that most of them contained "notable user" lists which were, for the most part, POV favourite lists. I felt if the project included these other guitar related articles eventually better formats and guidelines could be established for them to help keep the fan-cruft out. Just wondering how other project members feel about possible project expansion. Anger22 12:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the idea. There are a few manufacturers I'm looking to work on and it would be good to have some standards to go by when editing these articles. Once its figured out what the project will cover I'm sure there will be other things I could work on as well. I can always help cutting down the fan lists.  HeartofGold  (Searching) 16:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: As I discussed with Anger22, it sounds good to me.  There are already tons of gear-related articles out there, and many of them really need standards, stability, and guidance.  We will need to work with Imoeng as well, who I believe has been working on an Ibanez project. --Aguerriero (talk) 16:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Does this include amps? When adding this section to The Who's page, and similarly the section on the Hiwatt page, I was surprised to see that Dallas Arbiter don't have an article. Or did you mean more strictly focussing on guitars and such? Either way, I say it's a good idea. MightyMoose22 >Abort, Retry, Fail?_ 18:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it'd be great to include equipment. I'll add Vox (musical equipment)--Hector 18:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant to list amps in my original post. I think they fall right in with the other hardware articles. Also, kudos to Rohirok for cleaning up the Telecaster player list. It was ballooning out of control. Just about anyone who had played one, even if it was just once, had their name in there. He's done a good job paring it down. Anger22 19:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why dont we establish my project, WikiProject Guitar Specifications (Click here and scroll down)?? Well, this is just a suggestion.. I've contacted Aguerriero about this, still waiting for the reply :) -- Imoeng 10:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoops, I didn't see your reply up here! I will look at your project this week - I'm betting we can "merge" it into WikiProject Guitarists and have a great start for equipment-based articles.  Thanks for your hard work! --Aguerriero (talk) 21:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding to the mandate

message: Are bassists included in this project? --Hector 18:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say so.  A bass guitar is a guitar. :) --Aguerriero (talk) 18:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This makes me happy. :) MightyMoose22 >Abort, Retry, Fail?_ 20:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bassists 

message: I was just wondering...there is an article called List of guitarists and then there is an article called guitarist...which is merely just a list of guitar players. The only difference is that the guitarist article divides by genre, and the "list" article is alphabetical. Perhaps is there some way that these 2 articles can be combined? Or have more content in the guitarist article other than: A guitarist is a musician who plays the guitar. Both articles are magnets for every non-notable nobody who happens to browse through Wikipedia and just happens to play guitar. The rules about not listing without having an associated Wikipedia article...but we all know how well those rules work around here. Just thought this might be a suitable task some day...good luck with the project. Fair Deal
::I've noticed that before. Alphabetical Wiki-lists are easier to maintain than genre lists since some of those listed may easily fall into more than one genre. It's a tedious task to make sure the content from one makes it over to the other if you have intentions of AfD'ing it. Not a task I have time for. Anyone else can take a stab at it. Anger22 02:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question for Guitar Project members 

message: I just wanted to let you know that the Biography WikiProject has been reorganized and we wanted to see if you guys were interested in merging with us? We've reorganized it so that it's more like the Military history project with task forces for the specialized areas. One of the task forces we could create could be Musicians-- by merging with us and becoming a task force, you wouldn't lose anything! You'd keep your same page here, it would just be redirected to Musicians task force (which we'd create) and you would continue as before, except that instead you'd also gain the benefits of being part of a larger project. We would give you a parameter to our Project banner (musicians-task-force=yes) and a note would appear that says the article is a part of that task force (see example on military history article), plus having peer reviews and collaborations, and being able to grade articles by class and importance so that the articles can be part of the WP:1.0 project and much more... Let me know what you think! If you are interested, you need to add your project to the task force vote we're currently having plange 16:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interestingly enough, guitarists are already being pulled into their project. See Laurindo Almeida and Alberto Ponce for two that I've noticed recently. Perhaps somthing could be worked out in relation to the fact that biographies of guitarists are biographies, but this should probably be discussed before any premature inclusion takes place. --Amazzing5 19:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WP Biography covers all biographies and we would like to work closely with any current project that focuses in more detail on any particular discipline. Since no one nominated a specific work group for Musicians, it was folded into the Arts and Entertainment work group. Since WP Biography is so large we really depend on specific projects like yours. We would love it if someone from here was our liaison and let the A&E work group know when you have any articles up for FAC or FAR, etc or have a current collaboration going, so we can all support each other. Thanks! plange 19:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think this mostly sounds like a good idea. I don't know that I have enough time to be a liaison, but I am interested in being involved. --Amazzing5 21:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It should also be noted that this project does not encompass musicians in general, only guitarists.  We also support articles on guitar equipment, so those would probably fall outside the mandate for the biography project.  Since we are still developing this project and defining ourselves, I'm not sure it's a great idea to integrate into another project right now. --Aguerriero (talk) 21:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not asking you guys to integrate at all (I know that was the original proposition) -- just work side by side :-) We're here to help you, in other words, when you have general biography questions, or if you need support on an FAC or peer review. We have lots of resources that you can use (peer review, nomination for selected article on Portal:Biography, article assessment, etc) plange 21:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm confused now.  Are you still proposing that we redirect to the Musicians Task Force?  I don't think that's appropriate because we don't emcompass all musicians (nor do we want to - the old WikiProject Musicians failed for a number of reasons), and because we are working on developing task forces of our own and I'm afraid the waters could be muddied a bit too much.  Ultimately I am in favor of whatever produces the best articles about guitarists - and for now, I'm not sure we need the additional process until we're mature.  Make sense? Of course, that's just my opinion; if there is a consensus among the participants here to merge, then merge we shall. :) --Aguerriero (talk) 21:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: As a note about this being only for guitarists and guitar related things: That may be the case, but many things (such as the guitarist infobox) could be easily adapted for another workgroup for musicians in general.--Amazzing5 21:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interestingly enough, a while back someone started a WikiProject Musicians.  It quickly failed because there were all kinds of arguments about how the project related to WikiProject Composers.. there was too much crossover.  It was also disorganized, but that's beside the point. That's what gave me the idea to start this project, because it has a more narrow focus. --Aguerriero (talk) 21:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invitation 

message: A new page regarding the Equipment Project has been made, please check it out on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Guitarists/Equipment. Cheers -- Imoeng 11:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  This will give us a page to hammer out our details.  You asked above if we are really going to combine the projects - I think we are.  No one has spoken out against it, so let's be bold.  I propose that we work out the details on the new project page you created, and then we are finished, we can combine it with the main page.  Make sense? So for now, let's try to make the Equipment project page a mirror of the mail project page, with all the same types of information. --Aguerriero (talk) 15:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A nice add-on to the main project! Anger22 16:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, but no one has given a suggestion. Come on people, lets make this thing happens! Cheers, Imoeng 06:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Project 

message: I'd like to remind everyone reading this that quality is better than quantity. Too many low-grade articles, the kind that mostly exist just for the sake of existing, 
could draw suspicion to the whole project, and well-meaning stubs could get deleted alongside the cruft due to an assumption of bad faith. Thank you. MightyMoose22 >Abort, Retry, Fail?_ 04:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, good point. We should establish a guideline for what equipment is notable, as well as consider what equipment has enough information available to make an article. --Aguerriero (talk) 13:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proceed with caution

message: Starting today or tomorrow, I am going to reorganize the project a bit to include task forces for certain things.  Currently, we just have plans for a Guitar Equipment task force.  If anyone has ideas for other ones (they could be certain subject matter, or like an Infobox Consistency task force or something), please reply here. --Aguerriero (talk) 21:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Task forces in work 

message: Also known as, I was a busy bee.  You will notice the new navigation menu on the top right of the project page.  While I was at it, I made some reorganization efforts per our discussions of adding a task force.  Please note that everything is still in work, so please discuss on the relevant talk pages of each element before making changes.  
Please review the navigation template, and these new things accessible from the menu:
* The members subpage that is transcluded to the main project page.
* The article requests subpage.
* As part of the project banner (the thing you place on the talk page of articles) you can now tag articles as needing immediate attention, which places them in a special category accessible from the navigation menu.
* The project banner subpage.  The banner is basically the same, but you can now grade articles on the assessment scale (this part still in work), add the "needs immediate attention" flag, and also tag it to be part of either of our two task forces (this is also not working yet).
* The Departments section that links to the assessment department.. more info here on grading articles (in work).
* The two infoboxes (guitarist and equipment) have their own subpages and are transcluded to the main page.
* Two task forces now exist.. one for equipment and one future one for infoboxes.
I spent a lot of time on this and more work is obviously needed.  If there are any members who are very knowledgable in either templates (including conditional content and transclusion) or the assessment project, I would appreciate help.  Please leave me a message on my talk page if you are interested. --Aguerriero (talk) 00:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some changes 

message: I started this article a long time ago to hold the "overflow" of players previously listed in the Telecaster article. It languished for a long time as an indiscriminate collection of unreferenced information until recently, when, with the welcome input and enouragement of Anger22, I finally set about deleting the dubious entries and providing proper references for the rest. I think it's in decent shape now, as it now explicates criteria for inclusion other than that the musician merely played a Tele at some time, and all of the listings are backed up with references.
There is a problem, however. Despite the intro paragraph explaining that the list is only of artists who are notable for having played the Telecaster, and despite strongly worded notes in the edit box explaining the criteria and the need for references, daily additions are made (usually by anonymous editors) of musicians who do not meet the criteria and/or without a reference. Sometimes I've found a reference confirming that the artist belongs on the list, and have added it myself. More often, I've had to delete the entry entirely, and not for the first time. Casual editors seem to take the list as a challenge to find out who's "missing" and list them, or as an opportunity to promote their favorite musician (or themselves!) without regard for notability or verification.
Unfortunately, it is clear that the article will need daily attention to prevent it from again becoming a mess of unverified and dubious entries and, with classes starting, I won't be able to continue giving it such attention. Anger22 has helped keep things trimmed, but he is away right now, and also may not be able to give the article the daily attention it needs when he comes back. I am asking for more eyes to watch the article. Perhaps with the task of maintaining the quality of the article divided between several people, it will be a lot more manageable. Is there anyone here who would do me the favor of putting this article on their watchlist?
Also, the article does not have a project assessment yet. The input of other project members is needed. Thank you! Rohirok 13:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added it to my watchlist and will help keep an eye on it. --Aguerriero (talk) 21:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just checking in from Auckland NZ....It may be sporadic...but I will still be keeping an eye on that article as best as I can. Rohirok has made a valuable contribution to that page...I'd hate to see someone step in and ruin it. G'day...eh! Anger22 10:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[List of Telecaster players]]

message: Several weeks ago while tagging guitarist pages I stumbled upon...and became suspicious of...the article on Boston's Tom Scholz. It read just a little TOO neatly. My suspicions were valid. A quick web search revealed that, basically, the whole article was copyvio. I tagged and reported it and then...well...kinda forgot about it. The original page got turfed leaving a bunch of red links throughout several music/guitar related articles. I quickly(and poorly) threw together a new article which is very brief and needs expansion. If any members have time perhaps they could flesh it out a little. Specifically the Boston bits and, just as important, the section about Scholz Research & Development. Cheers! Anger22 18:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: An article re-born