Talk:Kosovo/Archive 5

message: * perform basic civilian administrative functions; 
* promote the establishment of substantial autonomy and self-government in Kosovo; 
* facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status; 
* coordinate humanitarian and disaster relief of all international agencies; 
* support the reconstruction of key infrastructure; 
* maintain civil law and order; 
* promote human rights; and 
* assure the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo.
this is just one part of the resolution. Here is the whole resolution. http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm
These official documents show you a complete 1244 Resolution, together with all the small changesmade by NATO. It is clearly stated that Kosovo is part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro)currently administered by the UN forces. 
Let's stop albanian propaganda! Gianni ita 15:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: According to resolution 1244, UNMIK is to:

message: I have deleted a blatantly POV-ed sentence from the section where it's spoken about Serbs and Roma leaving. It said "(note: Most of Kosovo Serbs were in the ruling administration of Milosevic's installed apartheid in Kosovo)". It is both factually ridiculous (what? The majority of the Kosovo Serbs were doing administration jobs? And what about numerous monks and entirely Serb villages? Everybody was administering? What a nonsense!) and is clearly POV. I do not cover my leaning - I am pro-Serbian (though not Serb and not originating from Serbia, I am a Jew), but hey! The folks here need to put some limits on this kind of savage trolling. --Aleverde
::In one way or another they were at least assisting the regime. There are very few I remember in my town, who refused to do so, and were labelled as traitors, and later joined as well. They were in all the police forces, municipality offices, all state-owned offices, all factories(where they had expelled the albanians from, of course), etc. And monks, oh yeah, most of them were blessing them for fighting the "turks" away. As ridiculous as it may sound to you. No wonder they are now afraid to return to Kosovo. Conscience bites more than anything. Nothing bad with being pro-Serbian, it is obvious you are. But try to be pro-smart-Serbian, who have recognized the reality. (Read: Kosova will never be under Serbian rule again, in no way) thanks, Ben uk 10:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted blatant POV passage

message: Absolutely, Patton, but even his work is still tipped over to the Serbian side. And he has not even bothered to answer my questions. Besides, some of the data here and in Demographic history of Kosovo are grossly manipulated (and one can easily guess who did it). For example, Yugoslav census 1921 posted 430,000 Albanians in Yugoslavia and the map made after the census portrays Kosovo as predominantly Albanian. Despite that, here and in the other article, an idea is given that interwar Kosovo was predominantly Serbian. VMORO
:Nikola tends to ignore talk, it's a reoccurring thing with him. He also tends to have some extreme viewpoints, such as that the ICTY is "illegitimate" in his words and that Srebrenica numbers have been "inflated". He’s even admitted in chat that he systematically promotes a certain positions on things (i.e. Serbian hard-line one). You really can't expect a true NPOV from him, but we can do our best to counterbalance his stuff and make the articles closer to the truth. GeneralPatton 23:13, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: Does Albania actually recognise the parallel government? Where is this written? Thanks! Intrigue 23:53, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Albanian recognition

message: Here are two interesting papers that touch on the Kosovo in the 80s and mythmaking ... 
http://www.amid.dk/pub/papers/AMID_34-2004_Diken_&_Bagge_Laustsen.pdf  
http://www.ichrp.org/ac/excerpts/50.pdf 
GeneralPatton 13:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The article name is Kosovo not "Histori of Kosovo". Wrong place.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting paper

message: First, as I said, the way in which this page is moved has insulted me and I find it insultive to comment here since; I hope that this exception will be appreciated.
For the sake of sanity, I will pretend that none of this hasn't been pointed out numerous times already.
I can not comprehend why are sysops reverting the article to the version with lower number of refugees, when that lowered number is provided without any justification and, as I said, references for the higher number were provided numerous times.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040203102745/http://www.serbia.sr.gov.yu/coordination_centre/index.html gives number of refugees as 242,381 and estimates that there are 50,000 more unregistered refugees. UNHCR Global Report 2001  Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (to obtain it you may go to http://www.unhcr.ch/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home?page=search and search for "Yugoslavia") at page 1 gives number of registered refugees as 231,000, report from 2002 at page 9 gives it as 263,600 and report from 2003 at page 1 gives it as 234,826. Note that both sources include only refugees inside SCG, and only registered refugees, so the actual number is higher. As after initial wave of violence some refugees have returned to safe areas, initial number of refugees in 1999 was even higher. So you can see that number of refugees in 1999 is probably even higher than 300,000; it would be fine with me to say something like "more than 250,000" but lowering the number two or threefold is not acceptable in any way. And of course, despite what VMORO might claim, UNHCR is not Serbian source. Secondary sources do take over these figures. For example, http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1226542.htm mentions that "Some 200,000 Serbs fled the province"; the first link above gives the number of Serbs (for there are non-Serbs who have fled the province) as 226000. http://www.refugees.org/world/countryrpt/europe/yugoslavia.htm gives "The 277,000 internally displaced people in Yugoslavia" (in 2002).
As for discrepancies between censa and number of refugees, it should be noted that both 1991 Yugoslav and 2002 UNMIK's censa are ESTIMATES of the province's population while refugees are REGISTERED individually; in order to get aid, each refugee must proove to be from the province and register. This is why their EXACT number is known, and as could be seen, the sources don't round the numbers but give them accurate to the last digit. The fact that the numbers don't add up means that estimates are wrong, not that number of refugees is wrong. Further, UNMIK's censa include people who are internally displaced within Kosovo; they are still refugees.
Nikola 12:11, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of refugees

message: :*1944 Kosovo i Metohia (FSRJ)
*1974 Autonomska Socialisticka Pokraina Kosovo (RSFJ)
*2001 Kosovo (UN)
My understanding is that it is widely accepted (outside of Kosovo that is) that Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia under UN administration. This administration is carried out by UNMIK.Osli73 10:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kosovo offical is a part of YU and is not a part of serbia and Monte 

message: *Dardania
*1500 Kosova Sanxhak
*1918 Kosovo i Metohija (Jugosllavia)
*1941 Kosova Italia
*1944 Kosovo i Metohija (FNRJ)
*1974 Socijalistička autonomna pkrajina Kosovo i Metohija (SFRJ)
*2000 - ?  Kosova (UNMIK)
*?  KHJHZJKHK (China) - Kosovo i Metohija (SCG+UN) - COSOWO (USA)- 1233455 (112) -  "§$%&/ (%&%&) --Hipi Zhdripi 23:24, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that "province of Kosovo" should not be used because it implies that it is called that way. Nikola 07:08, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kosovo is offical a part of SCG (Serbia and Mony) :)) 

message: Its not importend for the World. --Hipi Zhdripi 02:34, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: The province never had an official flag of its own. The Albanian flag is used by the Albanian-dominated administration and the vast majority of Kosovo Albanians. Kosovo's president, Ibrahim Rugova, has proposed an alternative flag of "Dardania" based on the design of the Albanian flag, but even within Kosovo it is little used. The Serb-inhabited area of north Kosovo uses only the flag of Serbia and Montenegro, which is formally the flag of the Serbia. (propaganda:whole of Serbia including Kosovo), although this usage is rejected by virtually all Kosovo Albanians. The United Nations administration in Kosovo intends to establish a new flag for the province, which will undoubtedly be very different from the two national communities' existing flags. The current flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina emerged from a similar process of national reconciliation.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:28, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag

message: Everybody,who doesn´t accept UNMIK , but is writing for kosovo, is just making propaganda. it has nothing to do with english language. With people like that, i don t need to have a discussion. If you are able to accept UNMIK, than we can have a discussion.
First of all : UNMIK ! What does it mean ?
UNMIK stands for United Nation Mission in KOSOVO.
In Kosovo ! There are no words for Serbian teritory or things like that. If you would be so nice, to have a look to the homepage from UNMIK, you can see yourself : there are no words for Kosovo in serbian territory . They are just writing " ...in the war-ravaged province of Kosovo... "
Than you can read this :
# perform basic civilian administrative functions;
# promote the establishment of substantial autonomy and self-government in Kosovo;
# facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status;
# coordinate humanitarian and disaster relief of all international agencies;
# support the reconstruction of key infrastructure;
# maintain civil law and order;
# promote human rights; and
# assure the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo.
That means, Kosovo doesn t have a status( it s war - ravaged ! ). It s just a province, administrated by UNMIK,and nothing else. It doesn t belong to any other state or country.
UNMIK is there to help the kosovars to decide for their future.Every other offical reference, like offical serbian - or offical albanian reference, is just propaganda.
From that point of knowledge, our discussion is, like I would say Serbia or Albania is a province in China.
All articles with the subject " Kosovo ", which have to do with information or references BEFORE the 10. june 1999 belongs to the article " History of Kosovo ". In an other case, I ll delete it , because i took it like propaganda and not like neutral information for Wikipedia. People in this discussion, who don t accept UNMIK, aren t neutral. They are living in an own dreamworld, what has nothing to do with reallity and they are using the Wikipedia for their own propaganda.
If somebody think, that I m wrong, please show me. But please argue with informations from an OFFICIAL document, accepted from UNMIK and not with an dokument from national offical propaganda informations.  
We can have a disskussion with facts from UNMIK, not with the past. Wikipedia  stands for knowledge and shouldn t have to become a place for national propaganda, no matter if it s serbian or albanian propaganda. In other case serbian and albanian people will ravage it, like they ve ravaged Kosovo.--Hipi Zhdripi 20:55, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UNMIK 

message: The Map of SM has to be replace by the map of Kosovo.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:14, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Map of SM

message: The Map Municipalities of Kosovo has to be replace by correct.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:17, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What is wrong with this map ? It is based on the map made by the UK Army. (it was redrawn to avoid hassle with British Crown Copyright). bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 22:03, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Map Municipalities of Kosovo belongs to "History of Kosovo" or Kosovo Maps --Hipi Zhdripi 22:58, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Map Municipalities of Kosovo

message: The sectio "The Name" belongs to "History of Kosovo" . --Hipi Zhdripi 21:29, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Name

message: UNMIK has so far established a provisional assembly, provisional government and the office of provisional president, which are legislative and executive bodies under UNMIK's control. Control of security, justice and external affairs are still under full UNMIK control. The Assembly of Kosovo was elected in November 2001 and Ibrahim Rugova was elected as president in March 2002. The seat of the assembly, government and president is in Pristina. So far, the parliament has enacted and UNMIK approved a constitutional framework, customs code, and two criminal codes.
UNMIK is issuing travel documents which serve instead of passports in countries which are accepting to recognise them as such; UNMIK is also issuing identity cards and car plates, which again are valid only in countries which are accepting them as such. Kosovo's postal system is also usable only in countries which are accepting to recognise it as such (letters addressed to Kosovo only, or to Serbia and Montenegro have a chance of not arriving; the Universal Postal Union advises correspondents to use "Kosovo (UNMIK)" as the address [1]  (http://www.upu.int/post_code/en/countries/KOS.pdf)).
UNMIK has also created a police force (the Kosovo Police Service) with employees from all ethnic communities (Albanian, Serbian, Roma, Bosniac, Roma, etc), and manages the province's railways and airline (Kosova Airlines). The airspace of the province is controlled by KFOR. UNMIK uses the United Nations flag.
The Constitutional Framework enacted by the Kosovo assembly (with UNMIK approval) has adopted a policy of affirmative action in the assembly to ensure that the province's minorities are properly represented. Out of 120 seats, 10 are reserved for Serbs and another 10 for non-Albanian minorities, while the remaining 100 seats are elected through direct voting.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:37, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Politics and international status

message: UNMIK declared the euro to be official currency of the province in 2001 in the course of implementing a currency reform. This was undertaken to replace the previous widespread use of the Deutschmark, which had become de facto currency even before the 1999 war. However,propaganda: the Serbian dinar remains an official currency, though used principally by the Kosovo Serb enclaves; it is only used sporadically outside of them. Most trade is conducted using the euro, Kosovo's administration uses euros exclusively, and all commercial banks use the euro as the primary currency. Of other international currencies, the United States dollar and Swiss franc are the most widespread.--Hipi Zhdripi 22:45, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Currency 

message: Main article: Demographic history of Kosovo
propaganda:Albanians comprise an almost 90% majority of the population of the province.  Their percentage as a proportion of the province's population has increased steadily over time as a result of a high birth rate, propaganda:immigration from Albania and concentrion of Albanians from areas formerly under the Sandjak of Nish, southern Serbia. Most of the province's Albanian population became refugees during the war but quickly returned to their homes at its end. In the aftermath of the conflict, several hundred thousand non-Albanians (especially Serbs and Romas) fled the province to escape renewed intercommunal violence. propaganda:The non-Albanian population of Kosovo has continued to fall in recent years due to a combination of economic hardship and tension (and occasional violence) in ethnically mixed area.
According to the 2000 Living Standard Measurement Survey of the Statistical Office of Kosovo, Kosovo's total population is approximately 1,970,000 with the following ethnic proportions:
* 88% Albanians (1,733,600) 
* 7% Serbs (137,900) 
* 1.9% Muslim Slavs (37,400) 
* 1.7% Roma (33,500) 
* 1% Turks (19,700)
::When talking about numbers one should have in mind the ill-famous document, which all the Serbian rulers of the 20th century followed. It is  the document called "Iseljavanje Arnauta". Manuscript in the Institute of Military History of the Yugoslav People's Army (Vojno Istorijski Institut JNA). Archives of the former Yugoslav Army (Arhiv Bivše Jugoslovenske Vojske), Belgrade, 7 March 1937, No. 2, Fasc. 4, Box 69, 19 pp. Retranslated from the Serbo-Croatian by Robert Elsie, on the basis of an existing English version. First published in R. Elsie, Gathering Clouds: the Roots of Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo and Macedonia. Feel free to check details in . Thank you, Mark ma 11:01, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics 

message: Article Kosovo History:
* Battle of Kosovo (1389)   
* National awakening and the birth of Albania
* Unrest in Kosovo (about the March 2004 unrest)'''
propaganda:
===Pro-Albanian===
* Kosovareport - A comprehensive blog in english with news from local, regional and international media
* KosovaLive - Independent news agency with some news in english
* Kosova Information Center - LDK's news agency (albanian only) 
* Albanian.com - general information
* Kosovo Crisis Center - Serbian Massacres of Albanians
* General information from Beqiraj.com (in german)
* General information from Beqiraj.com (in albanian)
article Kosovo war OR Kosovo conflict'''
===Pro-Serb===
propaganda:
* Hugo Roth, Kosovo Origins: a historian's "objective" comprehensive overview
* Kosovo.com Serbian Orthodox Church's official website on Kosovo
* Account of destroyed Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo and Metohia
* News from B92 Belgrade
* News from the Serbian Government
* News from the Serbian Orthodox Church 
** News archive
* Coordination Center of SCG and the Republic of Serbia for Kosovo
* Serbian Government Kosovo-Metohija site
* The Crisis in Kosovo and Metohia
* The Emperor's New Clothes: The Serbs Were Not Oppressing the Kosovo Albanians...
* The tragic blunder in Kosovo
*  BBC: Admiral Gregory Johnson said almost 1,000 Serbs had been driven from their homes after attacks by ethnic Albanians
* Agence France-Presse: Some Serbs said they had been given 10 minutes to leave their homes or die
'''
article Kosovo war OR Kosovo conflict
No one on this page seems to notice how 200 000 serb refugees havn't returned kosovo? 
----
Can some pls give me a complete lineage of koso leadership? Kosovo declares its independence from Yugoslavia in oct. 1991 with ibrahim rugo0va as leader from 24 May 1992 -  1 Feb 2000. then it goes: to Speaker of the Parliament
10 Dec 2001 -  4 Mar 2002  Nexhat Daci                       (b. 1944)           LDK
President
4 Mar 2002 -              Ibrahim Rugova                    (s.a.)            LDK:23 Feb 2005
                                              
are the UN administrators in conflict with Rugova?? 
I dont think i should add the succesion box without this info. Vital Component
:Forget Yugoslavia, forget Serbian goverment, forget The Republik of Kosova, forget it. Is only HISTORI. The administration of Kodsovo is UNMIK.--Hipi Zhdripi 20:17, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: See also

message: propaganda:
* Hugo Roth, Kosovo Origins: a historian's "objective" comprehensive overview
* Kosovo.com Serbian Orthodox Church's official website on Kosovo
* Account of destroyed Serbian Orthodox churches in Kosovo and Metohia
* News from B92 Belgrade
* News from the Serbian Government
* News from the Serbian Orthodox Church 
** News archive
* Coordination Center of SCG and the Republic of Serbia for Kosovo
* Serbian Government Kosovo-Metohija site
* The Crisis in Kosovo and Metohia
* The Emperor's New Clothes: The Serbs Were Not Oppressing the Kosovo Albanians...
* The tragic blunder in Kosovo
*  BBC: Admiral Gregory Johnson said almost 1,000 Serbs had been driven from their homes after attacks by ethnic Albanians
* Agence France-Presse: Some Serbs said they had been given 10 minutes to leave their homes or die
'''
article Kosovo war OR Kosovo conflict
No one on this page seems to notice how 200 000 serb refugees havn't returned kosovo? 
----
Can some pls give me a complete lineage of koso leadership? Kosovo declares its independence from Yugoslavia in oct. 1991 with ibrahim rugo0va as leader from 24 May 1992 -  1 Feb 2000. then it goes: to Speaker of the Parliament
10 Dec 2001 -  4 Mar 2002  Nexhat Daci                       (b. 1944)           LDK
President
4 Mar 2002 -              Ibrahim Rugova                    (s.a.)            LDK:23 Feb 2005
                                              
are the UN administrators in conflict with Rugova?? 
I dont think i should add the succesion box without this info. Vital Component
:Forget Yugoslavia, forget Serbian goverment, forget The Republik of Kosova, forget it. Is only HISTORI. The administration of Kodsovo is UNMIK.--Hipi Zhdripi 20:17, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pro-Serb

message: Hipi Zhdripi, have you actually read this article? Under the flag section is explicitly stated that Kosovo doesn’t have its flag. Why are you then steadily putting UN flag? -- Obradović Goran  (talk 21:46, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  UNMIK Flag 

message: Nikola, please don t change it, because you don t have offical  arguments. Kosovo, for shure, is under 
UNMIK - administration. 
: Yes. Nikola
If you still want to write about Kosovo and Metohija, you can do that, but please write it on an other page and put it under " History of Kosovo ". 
: No. This article is about the province of Serbia called Kosovo in general, while article "History of Kosovo" is about its history. Nikola
The articlename is Kosovo and that means, province under UNMIK administration. Everything else you want to write about , like Kosovo and Metohija or Republik of Kosova and their administration and government, please put in the article " History of Kosovo ". If you are a Wikipedian, you ll do that. If you are going on like that, you are just making propaganda and using this encyclopedia for your own intress and national propaganda, far away from the facts.--Hipi Zhdripi 15:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that you are claiming that Kosovo and Kosovo and Metohia are not the same province. But they are: UNMIK is temporarily administering Kosovo and Metohia, which it calls Kosovo for political reasons, even though that is not it's real name. The province is still the same. Nikola 15:23, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Possibly, not sure. Which edit are you referring to? Nikola 15:23, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Nikola Smolenski

message: I ve visit all pages with this subject. All informations, I ve found there, like for example for: popullation, territory etc., aren t correct. Pristina for example isn t a city in Serbia, it s a city in Kosovo. That s offical accepted by UN. Please edit that informations. I ve done some but better you ll do it, because I ve not so much time. I m working in albanish -  and german Wikipedia, they need more help there.
With friendly greetings,--Hipi Zhdripi 15:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are wrong. These informations are correct. Pristina for example is a city in Serbia, and in Kosovo as well. That is officially accepted by the UN. Nikola 15:26, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See: diff --Hipi Zhdripi 19:32, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About the Serbia und Montenegro subject

message: See:
... It was a part of Serbia, but since the Kosovo War it has been administered by the United Nations as a protectorate ... Everything else doesn`t work and is just propaganda.--Hipi Zhdripi 15:51, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, that is not true. For example, if Kosovo would not have been not a part of Serbia, there would be no need for talks with Belgrade about its future status. Why would Belgrade have a say in future status of some foreign territory? Nikola 15:32, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Info Box

message: #UNMIK = this are the offical divisons of Kosovo.
#Kosovo Metohija = this is used by NATO . UK Sector (Pristina), France (Mitrovica),Germany (Prizren), Italy (Pec),USA (Gnilan) Since milosovic dissolved the parlament of the Socialist Autonomus Province of Kosovo.
#Republika e Kosoves = This is used by the office of UNMIK administratio, but it s not offical. this sollution was made by Ex-Yugoslavia - Administration.
* I wrote all three, because all three are still in use from different organisations. Please don`t change it. If you want to have a discussion, we can have, but first of all you have to accept UNMIK: --Hipi Zhdripi 16:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a map showing all districs and municipalities of Serbia at , on an official site of the Serbian government, and a map showing all municipalities of Kosovo at  (PDF), on an official site of Kosovo's transitional government. As far as the maps can show, there have been no changes whatsoever to the municipalities: if there have been, they are too small to be present on the maps. So, same municipalities don't need different articles. Nikola 15:42, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ...Prema popisu iz 1991. godine Kosovo i Metohija broji 1.956.196 ljudi... . History 
*Present 
...
Kosovo is a small and landlocked territory in the center of the Balkan Peninsula. Kosovo borders Macedonia (FYROM), Albania, Serbia and Montenegro. Its area is 10 877 sq. km. This is about one third of Belgium. Kosovo is at present divided into 30 municipalities... --Hipi Zhdripi 18:52, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, to use your discussion style... Fantasy Nikola 08:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Administrative

message: In resolution 1244 is furthermore explicitly stated that territorial integrity of Serbia and Montenegro is intact - ergo if Kosovo was part of Serbia and Montenegro prior to 1999, then it is still part of Serbia and Montenegro. This is a categorical syllogism and if you don’t find a mistake in this line of conclusion, you will have to stop with your stubborn edit war, or you are a vandal.  -- Obradović Goran  (talk 18:38, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It s not the truth, it s just a interpretation from the serbian governnment, to tell them popullation, that they are loosing nothing. 
It´s the same thing, like with UCK. Their point of view, they should put in the article " Republic of Kosovo", but not here.
I`ve written an article with the subject "Kosovo and Metohija". 
Both subjects are one the wrong place here, they can be only in " History of Kosovo "
In the article "Kosovo" is just place for present information, not for the past or future. No speculation, no propaganda, just facts .
Nowhere you let a place for ACTUELL , CORRECT information from Kosovo.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:02, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

text: is NOT According to resolution 1244, SM is to:--Hipi Zhdripi 21:16, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 1244

message: :Also, I think that country templates are very problematic because of such situations. Maybe regional templates are better? --Millosh 18:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: YES Millosh, we can have a discussion about that.--Hipi Zhdripi 20:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I ask all people involved in this issue to see :m:Balkan NPOV page (to be involved there in general) and to see my proposal for regional template for Balkans at this page and to discuss about that proposal. (Note, this page is on Meta, not on English Wikipedia, so interested people should use Meta account.) --Millosh 23:23, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Regional templates

message: Can someone add :id:Kosovo to this article? Thanks. Hayabusa future 07:53, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: :id

message: Commercial Appeal (Memphis) Circulation: 157,820 in a May 22, 2005 article used Wikipedia (no particular article cited) as the lead source in a Kosovo overview section.
lots of issues  | leave me a message 14:34, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you provide link to the article? Nikola 06:12, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amazingly, despite the clutter of warnings on top, a print press outlet cites this our info without qualification 

message: This series of pages 
*Republic of Kosovo
*Kosovo i Metohija
*Kosovo
has been protected for some time now. Any objections if I were to unprotect the top two and redirect them here? BrokenSegue 17:15, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about the other ones, but this article has been protected for well over a month now.  That is far, far too long.  I'm unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:50, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: I've unprotected Kosovo i Metohija and turned it back into a redirect, like Kosovo and Metohia is. It's possible that the redirects themselves may need to be protected, but let's leave that for another discussion. --Joy [shallot] 08:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I've also unprotected Republic of Kosovo now because unprotection was long overdue, but left the content as is. Let's see how it works out. --Joy [shallot] 08:54, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotect

message: I thought that the main strong point for this enciclopedia was its neutrality.
Reading the article, I could not beleive my eyes. The obvious albanian position in the article is outrageous, thus destroying any possible argument for neutrality that the enciclopedia might have. I am doing the Serbian Studies course in the University of Toronto, and I assume the neutrality of this institution. I have also documented myself in both sides of the 'issue' in question in order to understand the situation fully, and the reality is far from what we hear in the news.
Firstly, the province's final status has already been dictated by the UN. It is an autonomous province belonging to the government of Serbia and Montenegro.
Then, the article refers very ominously to the Albanians in the province. This is inevitable, for the Albanians have taken over great part of Kosovo, backed unconditionally by their government back in Albania. 
The official language in Kosovo is Serbian. Albanian is used by the Albanians who have since 1990 conducted an efficient ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Albanian controlled areas. In fact, this cleansing is so efficient, Hitler would be proud, and he would be attached to the ALbanian people, for they were Nazi collaborators during the Second World War (and yes, immediately after the war they were and still are ultra-communist). 
It is an attack on the freedom of expression that this enciclopedia seems to guarrantee, showing this article. It is inevitably a volatile issue, but there is really only one truth.
In Canada, and elsewhere in Western society, the news we receive is very polluted. We only hear what the news agencies want us to hear (that is why I watch more than only CNN, in order to balance my views). 
The West in general has always been afraid of Eastern society. Russia and its allies have always been the Great Enemy, with or without Communism. This is evident from the bizarre need that the west has to remove Russia from its long standing allies in the east. This is evident from the urgent need to expand the EU to the borders of Russia, and to date, even with a democratic Russia, the NATO still refuses to invite it into its military alliance. More recently, during the Kosovo crisis, the NATO was quick to deploy its never before used military forces before the Russians had a chance to move in and secure the safety of the assailed Serbian population. 
This episode is merely yet another expression of this inexplicable fear and aversion to eastern society. How else could one explain that to date the Holocaust of Serbs by Croatian Ustasi has been censored violently in the West? The Catholic, west-leaning, fascist croatian ustasi have not been appraised, but that brutal episode in Croatian history is not even mentioned in western history high school textbooks. 
This article is just mimicking what Sky News tells us. For that reason, I strongly beleive it would be positive to allow two versions of this article, alongside each other, with no preference to either one, and both blocked for the time being. Or simply removing the article. Having this aversion to neutrality present is a contradiction to the essence of this enciclopedia. Either remove it altogether, or have two versions of the same article posted alongside each other.
:: So you are doing the Serbian Studies, right? Well, my friend, you will have to study a lot more before you can understand anything at all about the issue of Kosova, let alone write about it. Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the Wikipedia community since I am convinced that this article is profoundly pro-Serb.
:: (1) Who told you that the final status of Kosova has been determined? This just shows that you are a complete alien to the Kosova issue and are currently living in "Serbija do Tokija" world whereby it is Hitler's fault that Serbs have committed genocide as well as the worst war crimes against Bosnians, Kosovars, Croats and others. Since you are studying 'hard' the subject, go study the meaning of the expression "Serbija to Tokija" and contemplate about what it actually says about Serb mentality. 
:: (2) Kosovar Albanians make up approx. 90 per cent of the population in Kosova, so you must learn to live with that.
:: (3) Do you actually know why Milosevic and almost the entire political and military Serb leadership of the 1990s is in the Hague Tribunal today?
:: (4) Your English is very unclear. I gather you are a Serb, so that explains a lot of things.
:: (5) So, you don't watch CNN only? Wow! I am left speechless.
:: (6) Your views need a lot of balancing, and I am afraid they might be damaged beyond repair.
:: (7) This article deals with Kosova and Kosova exclusively. It has nothing to do with other European countries. That's an entirely different subject.
:: (8) What on Earth does Kosova and Kosovars have to do with Croatian Ustashi? You are hopelessly confused and I am afraid that you might need a professional person to explain to you that Croatia and Croatians are totally different to Kosova and Kosovars.
:: (9) I have a question for you. Since you are doing Serbian Studies, have you ever studied anything about what happened in Srebrenica, Sarajevo, Vukovar, Krusha e Madhe, Prekaz, Drenica, Podujeva and so on? Have you studies about Arkan and his 'Tigers', or the 'Scorpions'? Have you heard about Mladic and Karadjic? Because, if you haven't then I don't know what you are looking here for.
:: (10) Being brainwashed is a very bad thing. Since you would like to think of yourself as having balanced views, and believe you me, you are as far as it can get from balanced views, then I recommend some medicine that might help: (a) International Crisis Group ; (b) Humanitarian Law Center ; (c) Human Rights Watch ; (d) Amnesty International ; (e) BBC .
:: From Kosova with Love --Kosovar 23:56, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia NPOV 

message: Do we need it, still? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 09:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed POV tag. The article is not perfect, but I think it is far of article with disputed content. In this moment, of course. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 17:19, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag 

message: It was my understanding, when having this explained to me whilst we mournfully watched flocks of black birds hovering around mass graves, (so emotion may have over-ridden accuracy!) that the "black birds" referred to in the name were in fact black crows rather than the bird actually named precisely blackbird in English. Does anybody know for sure?
:Yes, it is blackbird. My dictionary said so; also, look at Slovenian interwiki link on the blackbird article (:sl:Kos). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 15:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correct translation for kos 

message: Having reviewed the regional/country pages of various other localities, I can only conclude that this article is an embarrassment. What was all this rubbish about blackbirds and obscure Ottoman geographical terms?! That sort of stuff is fine for a sub-page if you can work up enough material, but is irrelvant and distracting for an article which should aspire to be a source of reference. I've gone through the article and weeded out all such rubbish from both sides, leaving in only that which is relevant for an international reader. This leaves the article much shorter but much clearer. We still need a short para on 20th C history and the Kosovo War, a through redrafting of the politics section, far more detail on economics and a clearer review of the powers of UNMIK, the process of creating provisional institutions, the parallel Serb adminstrative efforts (there are now two Pristina Universities!), the economics of the UNMIK period and a more solid review of the Final Status process.
There is no reason to revert any the material I've removed. Nor is this an opportunity for either side to throw in a whole load of biased rubbish. Any additions along the lines mentioned above are welcome, as long as these remain balanced and authoritative. And can the guys who've been using this space to carry out a personal argument irrelevant to Wikipedia kindly get lost! Use your energies elsewhere. JDancer 19:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major pruning 

message: The source quoted for the demographics does not support the edits by the unsigned editor regarding large shifts in population.  Also, stating that 50% of an ethnic group's population is post-1998 (or pick any other date) is irrelevant. I fear that it was placed to advance a point of view of the legitimacy of the Albanian majority; however, one may say with certainty that 99% of Germany's population of ethnic Germans is post-1850 (barring any 156 year old people), or 50% of same population being post-1930 or whenever, does not imply some illegitimacy of ethnic Germans to be in Germany.  Similarly, here.  Carlossuarez46 01:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged Population Changes 

message: I won't be the one to deliver it, considering that I'm not even a registered user, but this article is HEAVILY BIASED against Serbs and is in DESPERATE need of a NPOV. As long as Kosovo is under territorial agreement with Serbia and Montenegro, the foremost official language will be Serbian, REGARDLESS of the Albanian majority. The ethnic population distibution should seriously be re-evaluated (sources??) and other pointless additions , including a  flag not recognized by either UNMIK or The government of Serbia and Montenegro should be removed. This image was added on purpose, simply to draw some sort of connection between Kosovo and albania.  These happen to be just some of the perplexities noticed while skimming through the article without any real emphasis on my part. I am sure that it is plagued with even more advocative misinformation, and so ask a NPOV to be put into place as soon as possible.
I totally agree! Who ever put english as an official language? It's only serbian and albanian! Their is no official flag of Kosovo and it should therefor be removed. So I suggest that somebody remove the flag or I will. Litany 20:45, 31 January 2006
:Does anyone have some refernces about official languages of Kosovo (i.e. about usage of English)? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Flag is not official, but it is notable, so it should be inside of article. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serious NPOV 

message: These paragraphs should be included within the article on the history of Kosovo. More importance is yielded to the battles rather than country's geography.--Pjetër Bogdani III 23:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Significant Historic Battles and their After Effects 

message: I protected the page following an edit war. Please try to get consensus here. David.Monniaux 20:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war / protected 

message: If possible, could an administrator please fix the infobox's layout? Right now the table cell that contains the map of Kosovo doesn't span any columns, so it expans the left column too much while squishing the right column. It's a little frustrating to read the infobox with one word per line. Please change this line:
 | align=center | Image:Kosovmapofmunicipalities2.GIF
To this:
 | colspan="2" align=center | Image:Kosovmapofmunicipalities2.GIF
Thanks.
 – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 05:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox layout 

message: The Serb:
"Ethnic Albanians comprise almost 90% of the population of the province. In the aftermath of the conflict some one thousand non-Albanians, particularly Serbs and Roma either followed Serb soldiers as they withdrew, were forcibly expelled by the Albanian majority or fled the province to escape perceived threats of revenge by Albanians (note:Most of Kosovo Serbs were in the ruling administration of Milosevic's dictatorship in Kosovo). The non-Albanian population of Kosovo has continued to fall since the arrival of NATO and the UN as a result of violence, perceived intimidation, and economic hardship. Many still live in communal camps in Serbia or Macedonia cared for by international relief agencies. However, there have been many attempts by Kosovo's government to resettle Non-Albanians in the region which have largely been successful, including the resettlement of well over one thousand Serbians and Roma from 2004 - 2005. The Kosovo government has been widely praised for paying for the rebuilding of Serb houses in the aftermath of the 2004 riots. This has been marked as the first case of reparations in the history of the Balkans.
Another Serb:
I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT THESE PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH!!!!!!!YOU CANNOT PUBLISH THIS LANGUAGE OF HATRED IN AN RESPECTABLE MEDIA SUCH AS WIKIPEDIA!!!!!MOST OF THE OTHER CASES YOU REACT INSTANTLY- BUT THIS THING HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR WEEKS IF NOT LONGER!!!!YOU CANNOT PRESENT SERBIAN NATION AS A VARVARIC, GENOCIDAL AND SAVAGE, NO NATION IS LIKE THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF EUROPE, ESCPECIALLY THE NATION THAT HAS SUCH A RICHFULL CULTURE AND HISTORIC TIES TO EUROPE!!!!!BY DOING NOTHING YOU ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING TO THE DISPUTE!!!!!I BEG YOU GUYS WHO RUN THIS WEBSITE TO LOOK IT UP ON THE INTERNET, FIND SOME SOURCES YOU CONSIDER VALID AND APPROPRIATE AND REWRITE THIS ARTICLE!!!NOT THE SERBIAN WAY, NOT THE ALBANIAN WAY, BUT THE WAY THAT HAS EVIDENTIAL, SCIENTIFIC AND HISTORICAL SUPPORT! THIS WAR ONLINE HAS TO STOP! 250,000 SERBS ARE AFRAID TO GO BACK TO KOSOVO THAT THEY HAVE ABANDONED FOLLOWING ETHNIC CLEANSING! YOU CANNOT PRETEND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, AND CANNOT DENIE THAT ONLY 3% HAVE RETURNED SINCE 1999!!! 3 %!!!!!!!! I JUST CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I'M READING HERE, I'VE BEEN VISITING THIS SITE FOR A YEAR NOW BUT NOW I'M DEEPLY DISSAPOINTED!!!THIS INTERNET-VIOLENCE IS SILENTLY APPROVED BY THOSE WHO RUN THIS WEBSITE AND I FIND IT SHOCKING, DISTURBING AND RASIST IN 21ST CENTURY! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.106.169.47 (talk • contribs) 
The Albanian:
-I can't believe how Serbs hate the truth. -There are 65,000 Kosovar Serb refugees in Serbia, not 250,000!!! Stop the Milosevic-type propaganda. Go read www.esiweb.org a reputable think tank, look for their report Laune Principle and you will learn about the number of Serbs. -Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians, thir language proves that. Unless Serbian chouvinists decide that Albanians are not. But historical, sociological and anthopological studies since 18th century have been proving this. And not Albanian, but western sources only. Serbs don't like it because it doesn't suit them politically. -Kosovo was not part of Serbia, it was a territory of the the Nemanjic Dinasty for a short period of time. Serbia was founded in Raska not in Kosovo! -Jefferson has talked about generational sovereignty. He has said sovereignty belongs to the living people. 90% of Kosovars want Kosovo to become a state, you cannot stop it. You can cry and beg, but no, you cannot stop it. -Albanian Lobbying??? Demonizing Albanians as capable of world conspiracy??? This reminds me of Hitler and the Jewish people??? Stop it! That is inciting hatred and violence. -Kosovo was invaded by Serbia in 1912 because the Ottoman Empire was weak! Yes it was invaded! It's people were not asked whether they wanted to join Serbia. Were they asked, Kosovo would have been part of Albania today and Albania and Serbia would have been allies. Today, we have to live the conflict just because of the big unjustice of 1912. -And yes, Serbia has committed crimes! It was the Serbian government on the name of the Serbian people who committed crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and lastly in Kosovo. Peace, let Kosovo breathe, Stop Serb Chouvenistic Propaganda! We've had enough of it for a hundred years. Wikipedia should be placeo of knowledge not of propaganda! Stop the Serb information terrorism!
The Serb:
You poor ignorant troll. lets get one thing straight. We Serbs, we have no reason to lie. How DARE you presume to teach us our own history??? Let me tell you this, the Illyrians were the indiginous people of the balkans until they were absorbed into the Serbs (over a period of time, naturally) and have no link whatsoever with the albanians. What you claim to be true, is Austrian propaganda dating back to the 19th century, since they saw it somehow profitable to arm the enemies of Serbdom. Serb chauvanists? How about the half of the world that is normal? Serbia founded in Raska not Kosovo? Again, whos history is it? Yes!!! albanian lobbying!! good thing you mentioned that. the leader of Kosovo Serbs, Archbishop Artemije goes to Washington DC to petition his case against independance and who is he recieved by? an unknown beaurocrat assigned to take the bishop on a tour nothing more. why is that? because Bishop Artemije is not a drug dealer nor is he a pimp. hashim thaci goes to washington and he gets a reeption at the white house and the secretary of state is there. How dare you compare us to hitler when the albanians, bosnians and croatians were marching with him?!?!?!?
Kosovo invaded? LIBERATED!!! invasion came in 1998 by the KLA. Serbia committed crimes? and the kla were angels? when pigs fly!! albanians hate truth..thats what you have shown me now....and anyone with an intellectual capacity above that of a turnip will agree...ohh one more thing, keep talking about Serbian hate crimes and we'll give you something to really complain about.
The Albanian:
Exactly! You just prove my point. We shouldn't compare you to Hitler!? Hitler is the symbol of violence incited on false claims. That is exactly what Serbia did and what you are calling for. Kosovo was never liberated until 1999. We had all kinds of invasions since ancient times: Roman, Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Ottoman and Again Serbian, German, Bulgarian, Italian. The first time that the people of Kosovo control their territory is since 1999, albeit with UN supervision. Your Artemije should go to prison like Abu Hamsa in England. In Kosovo we have a law (UNMIK Regulation 2000/04) which comdemnes inciting of ethnic, religious hatred to 5 years of prison. Did you see what he was saying there??? I think he could as well belong to a mental hospital. That guy has nothing to do with God, that's for sure. 'People of God' as religious people are called, do not call for war and ethnic hatred. My governmnet, out of my taxes has paid for what the rioters did in 2004, when is your government going to pay for my house burned down by your military in 1999? And yes, the KLA committed crimes, but not the structure. It was some individuals. The Hague has just acquitted Fatmir Limaj, who was considered a high officer of the Liberation Army. Ramush Haradinaj will most likely be acquitted to. Only one KLA person has been charged, and he was a prison guard. You threaten me? Do you have any idea what the KLA would have done to your army had they not revenged by killing civilians? And don't forget, we didn't touch Belgrade, don't exclude that in a possible future attack. And I cannot tell you anything else, apart from Kosovo is Free! And so it will remain! If you want to visit Kosovo, you pass through a border. By the end of the year, you will need a valid passport. And when you cross the border it will say "Welcome to the Republic of Kosovo". I hope you don't have a heart attack, or even if you have one I don't care that much. (Damn it! If you have a heart attack you will be brought to the hospital of the Republic of Kosovo, which will be spending my taxes on you! Hmmmm... Ah OK, I would agree to that, I like the Republic of Kosovo to treat equally all foreigners. Even those who have ocupied us in the past like Turks and Serbs, Bulgarians or Germans)
Peace!
The Serb:You are so full of lies its simply amazes me. If you actually think anyone is going to believe your insane claims and ravings, ie, people of Kosovo, the righteous KLA, you've got another thing comming. Where is the proof, that albanians have been living in Kosovo for 3 millenia? WHERE? Peace will only be be achieved when Kosovo is returned to who it belongs to. And dont try to fool me saying the new government has payed to repair the damage of 2004. What do you think, im insasne?!!?!!? I've seen the churches and monasteries, almosts a 1000 years old. Burnt to the ground. I've seen the destroyed homese. I've seen the desecrated graves. Personally i dont giva a damn whether or not you are serbian albanian, turkish or german, but what the albanians are doing is evil. THEY are the ones carrying out hitlers work. and about me visiting Kosovo. wont happen unless its with an AK in my hand. You go ahead having your delusions of grandeur. one day you'll wake up and find out you were lying in a pile of horse manure.
The third party:Gentlemen. I hope you do realise that you are making a laughing stock of both Albanians and Serbs with this discussion? I can assure you, many neutral editors patrol around here, many having high standards concerning verifiability as well as maintaining NPOV. 
:You would both accomplish much more if you would start arguing with those people in a civil manner, rather than chasing each other around in circles and scaring off other editors who might otherwise agree to your arguments. Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 14:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You said: "Before, 3 milion years, was created something called civilization". For your information, three million years ago, our relatives were still climbing in the trees.  For more information, see Australopithecus africanus. I wrote this to remind you to stick to the facts. THIS IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA. It's not a place to debate whether Kosovo should be exist as a country or not. We're here to tell what the current situation is, NEUTRALLY, not to debate those kinds of things. The fact is that right now it's neither an independent country, nor an actual part of Serbia. We don't need to give our own opinions of what it might be in the future. --HJV 21:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  DO SOMETHING 

message: where can I start to discuss and oppose Shqiptar propaganda? here it seems a bit too chaotic....--TheFEARgod 15:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  where to start? 

message: (Giani I think it makes sense to comment on your comments on your text. I hope you agree. The Albanian)
Quote : Kosovo was invaded by Serbia in 1912 because the Ottoman Empire was weak. 
Truth: Well, Kosovo belonged to Serbia before the Turks came, so large parts of today's Serbia together with Kosovo was liberated, not invaded. Even some parts of northern Albania belonged to Serbia before the Turks occupied Serbia including the city of Shkoder (Skadar). 
The real truth: Kosovo was absolutely invaded as the majority of the people to some 80% were ethnic Albanians. Albanian nationalism had not reached the masses. Kosovo was not Serbian. Serbian nationalism emerged in 19the century. Serbian nationalists used Kosovo in order to gain mass support. This is a case that the political science knows as "ethno-symbolism." While Serbian nationalism was a reaction to it's northern borders, Albanian nationalism was a reaction to the Greek and Serb nationalism and thus was relatively late. When Serbia attacked, Albanians were unprepared to gather mass support. Serbia and Greece were much strongoer. The four Albanian Vilayets (Ottoman Autonomous Regions), where Albanians made the absolute majority had some 94,000 square kilometres. Albania is today 28,000 and Kosovo 11,000. Albanians make the majority in some 8,000 more in Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia bringing it all to some 47,000, slightly over half of what they had under control. Vast regions were ethnically cleansed in XIXthe century in Northern Greece, Southern Serbia and Western Macedonia. The Turkish population of Albanian descent is considered to be between 4 and 12 million today. Albanians made the majority in Nis until 1878, Skopje was virtually Albanian with a very small Serbian and Bulgarian (back then) minority. This all changed in 1912, when Serbia invaded. 
The more real truth: That's one of the biggest lies ever. Where did you get all those fake numbers? Albanians became the majority of the population in Kosovo only after the WWII because they had on average 7-8 kids per family.
Quote : It was the Serbian government on the name of the Serbian people who committed crimes in Croatia, Bosnia and lastly in Kosovo. 
Truth: The conflict in Kosovo cannot compare with the previous one that took place in Bosnia, and some parts of Croatia. Being half Croatian and half Serbian, I developed a very neutral view, meaning that I understood both sides why they engaged in a war, but at the same time, I was also very angry on polititians from both sides, as they were dividing genetically and culturaly very close nations. Serbs did awfull crimes in Bosnia (Srebrenica), Croatia (Vukovar) and other places in this war. But not a lot of people know that during the WWII more than 200 000 Serbs were killed or forced to escape Croatia. So the bad guys in the WWII were Croatians. But I'm not going to talk that much about this war, as it is not the subject of our discussion.
Kosovo problem is a cause of the previous war, and terrible Milosevic's politics, but the problems that provoked the South Slav conflict were much deeper, meaning the history of the regions whose autonomy was disputed.
The real truth: I believe that the conflicts of the Balkans have a mixed origin. I don't buy the historical factor as being an important one. I believe nationalism, that is the aim for expanssion of territory and control, was the main factor. Milosevic was not the founder of Serbian nationalism. Serbian nationalism is deeply rooted in the Serb collective self. Serbian nationalism was a result of the opportunities that Serbia had had for expanssion (bordering two weakening empires). Serbian nationalism is offensive. Albanian nationalism was a reaction to two expansionist nationalism, that is why it is defensive.  
The more real truth: OK, I've heard enough about Serbian nationalism. You can say that Albanian nationalism is a reaction to Serbian, but I say that it's vice versa. On the contrary Croatian nationalism was a reaction to Serbian one, but you know that you had a plan to get Kosovo long before Serbian nationalism.
Quote: Kosovo is Free! And so it will remain! If you want to visit Kosovo, you pass through a border. By the end of the year, you will need a valid passport. And when you cross the border it will say "Welcome to the Republic of Kosovo". I hope you don't have a heart attack, or even if you have one I don't care that much. (Damn it! If you have a heart attack you will be brought to the hospital of the Republic of Kosovo, which will be spending my taxes on you!)
Truth: Wow, relax man and breathe deeply. This sounds like a last word from some mad scientist that wants to destroy the planet Earth. Kosovo is not independent, and it never will be. Remember that the Congress of Vienna concluded that changes of borders will not be possible in Europe.
The real truth: If you follow the news, you would know that Kosovo is de-facto independent now. You would also know that the aim of the US, UK, France, Italy, Germany is to grant Kosovo indpendence by the end of the year. You would also know that Russia has said that it will not block any decision reached. You would know that at the UN SC meeting most of the countries supported some sort of independence for Kosovo. I agree that independence is not very good, but it is the best solution for now. Kosovo should have been part of Albania in 1912. Now that is difficult to be done, so Kosovo has to become an independent state. Serbia is no alternative not only because the Kosovars will not accept it, but also because Serbia doesn't have the means to maintain Kosovo as it's territory and does not have any serious plan how to integrate it. Serbian calls for Kosovo to be part of Seria are a result of frustration rather then having any pragmatic aim. 
The more real truth: Ha, ha. Funny you mentioned the year 1912, that's when Albania was created, and gained a lot of it's today's northern teritories only thanks to the country of Austria, who didn't want Serbia to have an entrance to sea. And about independence, well it will happen when Russia gives independence to Chechnya, and one other region, i don't remember its name, and if Spain give autonomy to the Basques, so the independence of Kosovo is very unlikely to happen. 
Quote: If Kosovo belongs to Serbia then Belgrade and the north of Serbia belongs to Hungary and the US belongs to the indians!
Truth: So here, for the first time in my life I see an Albanian who admits (although it probably wasn't his\her intention) that Serbs were in Kosovo before Albanians, that's a big step forward. I need to give you one more fact in order to explain why it should still belong to Serbia. Albanians comprised the majority of population in Kosovo only few years after the WWII, for the first time! So, if you can get Kosovo, just because of the extremely high number of children per family, than I will marry 2000 women and they will get me 20 kids each, and then I will move to some north albanian city and ask for the independence of it.
The Real Truth: I have never said that Serbs were in Kosovo before Albanians. Ethnic Albanians according to historical facts were in the Balkans before everyone else. But this is not important at all. The world belongs to the living people. Not to the ones who have died centuries or millenia ago. Kosovo is mine, because it is mine, not because it belonged to Albanians before Serbs. What I wanted to say was this. "If you claim that Kosovo was Serbian, why do you also claim that Vojvodina is yours, which in 12th century was Hungarian. If you were to govern Kosovo today, would you give Vojvodina back to Hungary."
Another important point: According to Ottoman documents, when the Orthodox priest Arsenije left in another element of ethno-symbolism, the people that followed him were Orthodox and some Catholics. Albanians of Kosovo were both Orthodox and Catholic. And knowing that when he left, the national conscienceness was not there yet, one could conclude that the people that he led were ethnically both Albanian and Serb and probably also Bulgarian. 
The more real truth: 
The more real truth: Do you understand what you're writing? If you compare Serbs with the Native Indians in the US, it definitely does mean that Serbs are the first who lived in Kosovo. And this thing that you wrote --- "If you claim that Kosovo was Serbian, why do you also claim that Vojvodina is yours, which in 12th century was Hungarian. If you were to govern Kosovo today, would you give Vojvodina back to Hungary." Well, wouldn't Albania than be like 5 times smaller. There would be a total mess in the whole world. I'm not trying to say that Kosovo should stay Serbian only cause Serbs were the first people there. It should stay part of Serbia cause of everything that happened on Kosovo since the Serbs came, and because the Congress of Vienna concluded that the borders in Europe will not be changed any more.
Quote: Albanians are the descendents of Illyrians, thir language proves that.
Truth: No it doesn't unfortunately for you. I already said, the only ones who can claim to be of Illyrian descent are the Dalmatians (Croatia)
The real truth: I think there is no point in arguing here. Claiming that Albanians are not descendants or Illyrians, is like claiming that todays Greeks are not the descendants of Helens. Probably both have some truth in them, in that there are Slavic and other tribes melted within both nations but still, the language and the cultural heritage convay elements of the ancienity of both cultures. I think this is not a forum to discuss this as this should be a matter of real historians and anthropologists. I want to repeat that I don't 
ever want to say that Kosovo belongs to Albanians because it did in ancient times. That is irrelevant. Kosovo it belongs to Albanians because it belongs to Albanians. History is a 'science' of the past and it should in any way project the future. 
The more real truth: OK. I'll let the scientists argue about that. But please take a look at the map of Illyrian territories.
Quote: Kosovo was not part of Serbia, it was a territory of the the Nemanjic Dinasty for a short period of time. 
Truth: Really? And did you know that Nemanjic Dynasty is a Serbian dynasty?
Gianni ita
The real truth: As I said, the national conscienceness of Serbs was developped in the XIXth century. The Nemanjic Dinasty were ethnically Serb (although there are some contraversial claims by Albanians that they had Albanian origin- difficult to prove; I guess it is similar to the Serbian claim that the Albanian prince Scanderbeg had Serbian roots). They claimed to be be the kings of Serbs, Albanians and Vallahians. But this is not important, there were thousands of kings around the world who lived, ruled and died. And I don't want my life, nor yours to be influenced by that. Yes, there are cultural elements that need to be preserved but life has changed today. The legacies of the past are not that important in our lifes or in our collective being. 
The real truth: Nemanjic dynasty albanian, wow. That's probably one of the best lies I've heard. Is Goebbels your relative?
In Conclusion: Serbia needs to treat its nationalism. Expanssion is not possible anymore. It is a far more dynamic world. Greece is trying to make economic expanssion as a remedy for territorial one, which, like Serbia, it cannot do now. That is doomed to fail too. The only way out is by education. The form of nationalism needs to be exposed publically and reverted to a positive form. I believe in the present international arrangement of nation-states, there is need for some patriotism. But patriotism does allow for positivism regarding the neigbours. Serbia cannot be good, if Albanians are not good, and vice-versa. The only way towards the future is by being pragmatic, real patriots and Europeans. Mladic is not a patriot, he is a nationalist. Nationalists are more damaging for the nation than traitors! In fact, they are traitors! 
In better conclusion: Albania need to treat its nationalism as well as Serbia does. I agree, no expansions, on any side. 
Please don't mention education, because Serbia is way in front of Albania in that field. Just take a look at any of the indicators and compare them (literacy rates, number of people with hs diplomas, bachelor, master)
Mladic is not a part of this story and doesn't have to do anything with it. I already explained you that you cannot compare Kosovo conflict with '90s conflict between Yugoslav states.
:Sadly none of you two know the "real truth" and even if someone who knows told you it, you'd both reject it as being false, saying things went more like you think they did. The positive side of your anonymous "conversations" is that I (and possibly others) now understand better why the czechs among others didn't seek independence from Austria, when they could have. --HJV 15:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ridiculous 

message: Article might not be perfect but your provocations make it worse. Wikipedia is not meant to be an Albanian mouthpiece. I have provided references for all my edits. It is not enough reason to delete them simply because they do not benefit your version of the events. Where are all the Admins when you need them?  Asterion 21:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oooooo C(pi)C guy is getting frustrated. Is it because the rat (i.e. president of your party) died in a cell with none to say a prayer for him? I wish I could feel a bit sorry. Don't ask for sysadmins, ask for some brain to fall in your empty skull, as still being a member of SPS is one that has milligrams of brain. as of POV, isn't your insane leader the one who tried to impose that on every nation of ex-Yug??? I will keep reverting, as long as it takes, as many times as it takes, with as many usernames as necessary. Everything for my loving country. Peace! Ilir pz 22:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am Spanish, not Serb, and have no time for your insults. Hope you get banned soon. Regards, Asterion 22:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not say you were a Serb, but a supporter of the most insane Serbian party ever founded. Oh, but you support Chavez as well...and peaceful reunification of Yugoslavia? I am sorry to waste time responding to you at all. Ilir pz 22:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

text:  I want to believe that. Honestly. Because we are going to be neighbours with Serbia, and want to be good neighbours. I am in one hand sorry for the people of Serbia who, if not Milosevic, support Seselj's party, in large numbers. I heard of figures like over 30% and rising?! As of future status of Kosovo, that will affect very little: relations with a neighbouring country. As of discussing with a supporter of Milosevic, that is User:Asterion. And I was addressing my abovementioned comments to him/her in particular. Cheers, Ilir pz 00:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Nobody is asking anyone, but the will of the majority in Kosova, to decide about its future. Especially your opinion is not needed at all, Gianni_ita, in order to determine that :)). Ilir pz 00:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding ALbanian POV pushers... 

message: Litany, Asterion and e few other editors amaze me with their prompt reverts. I don't know why they are not banned from Wikipedia. Serbian nationalism and expanssionism has cost Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Kosovars, Macedonians and Serbs so much that it just doesnt make any sense anymore. I would suggest to you two, dear colleagues (and others on your side) to bury Serb expanssionism and extreme nationalism with Milosevic. Kosovo is becoming independent this year, and there is nothing that can stop it. I suggest a pact: Let us work on the Kosovo article. We will let you work on the Serbia and related articles. If you do not agree with the version of the hisory of our country, Kosovo, then we will have to help you improve the entries on Serbia and Serbian history. I believe it's time for all to work together for a better Balkans in the world. Let's leave the past behind. Let's help each other acquire a better image internationally. If we continue with destructiveness, then we pay tribute to Milosevic and the alike. I am kindly begging you, to leave Kosovo to Kosovars. If you stop your obstructiveness, soon I will write a version that will satify both sides. If you want to continue this Wiki-war, I will have to sadly participate in it.
----
----
I was never interested much to edit Kosovo article, and I am not interested in it now as well, but I quite often read this talk page usually to laugh about this Serb-Albanian arguing. It is bad that both, Serb and Albanian users who participate in this edit war think that Wikipedia is a best place for propaganda wars. I do not know who you are, but I do not like your threat that you will "help" about Serbia-related articles, because some Serbs "helping" you about Kosovo article. First, you can see that these Serbs who "helping" you did not edited much these Serbia-related articles, but most of their edits are related to Kosovo, while most of other Serb users who had much edits in Serbia-related articles, mostly did not edited Kosovo article. My point is that if you vandalize Serbia-related articles as you threat, you will not vandalize the work of these editors with whom you have edit war here, but work of other editors which did not participated in edit war with you. So, you first learn with whom you have dispute here and with whom not, and the second thing is that vandalizing any article on Wikipedia only because you have personal dispute with somebody is not quite accetable behaviour here. As for Kosovo article, the only solution for it is to be permanently locked until the final status of Kosovo is solved, and that only administrators edit this article, and to post in it only NPOV sentences about which both, Albanian and Serb users who participate in this dispute will agree. Opinions about this proposal? PANONIAN (talk) 00:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian propaganda machinery 

message: Why don't we talk about the other side a little bit more. Are you aware of the Albanian extreme nationalism (which is from time to time closer to terrorism). It had already claimed hundreds of thousands victims only in Kosovo. Mostly Serbs, but also Roma (Gypsies), and others. It killed numerous Macedonians, and is threatening to do the same with Greeks in northern Greece. 
The idea of Great Serbia, was Milosevic's horrible idea that had many followers in the beginning, unfortunately people became aware of the atrocities of these wars started by Serbian forces only too late.  Although I sympathize with all the families who lost someone in these wars, one thing must be mentioned, and it is that Serbs had at least 20 times more killed by Croat and Muslim forces in the WWII. But I do not want to measure how much someone is guilty by subtracting these numbers, both sides should be ashamed equaly.
Now, let's go back to the Albanian terrorism. It's origins are much deeper in time, and because of that it has many more followers in Albania and in Albanian population in Kosovo.
Since the end of the WWII Albanians used the goodwill of ex Yugoslavian president, Josip Broz Tito, who opened the borders of Serbia to all the Albanians, and gave this Serbian province autonomy. Albanians came in huge numbers because the living standard in Serbia at that time was about 3 times that of Albania. In the end of the WWII there were as many Serbs in Kosovo as there were Albanians. In the '60 the number of albanians rised and they started rioting and asking for the independence, the life for the Serbian population was a hell. And now here we are, we've got 88% of albanians and around 8%of  Serbs there. Why? Maybe because of shortlived Serbian nationalism. Or maybe because of the a long time ago planned Great Albania.
And just one more thing. Being Kosovar is not anyones nationality. It just means that you come from Kosovo. There are only kosovar albanians, kosovar serbs....
Gianni_ita
::anyone checking these unnamed additions? are these allowed? additionally they provide no sources for their speculations, like "Serbs had at least 10 times more killed by Croat and Muslim forces in the WWII." or "Since the end of the WWII Albanians used the goodwill of ex Yugoslavian president, Josip Broz Tito, who opened the borders of Serbia to all the Albanians, and gave this Serbian province autonomy." and offences such as "Albanian terrorism"? I propose to erase such comments. Ilir pz 00:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albanian propaganda machinery 

message: Quite clearly anything that contradicts your views will be deleted. I have provided references for all of my edits, which any non-partisan wikipedian could follow up if interested. I don't feed trolls'. Best response to inflammatory remarks is to ignore them. Your threats have been noticed too. Regards, Asterion 22:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Working for a less biased article