Talk:Non-native pronunciations of English/Archive 3

message: Is it not possible to make a standard text in English, with many different sounds in, to be read out by a native speaker of a certain language (with an obvious accent). It would be nice to have audio samples for each (most) accent(s), to serve as an example. Black1Night 10:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is possible, see the "external links" section @ the bottom of the page. You can find plenty of examples there. :) --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 12:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. It may not be the ideal solution to have audio samples in an external link, but it will do. Black1Night 13:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Audio samples

message: User User:Wordlover169 has claimed that "non-native" is incorrect and it should be changed to :nonnative" (without the dash).  A quick google search shows "non-native" to be more popular but both surpass a million hits.  A google scholar search had similar results.  Electronic dictionary searches that I did automatically redirected "non-native" to nonnative.  Are both correct?  If so, do we have any compelling reason to change it?  AEuSoes1 21:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither is incorrect, but non-native is more clear. People might have to stare at nonnative for a split second before they figure out what it means, but non-native is instantly clear. —Keenan Pepper 23:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-native or Nonnative?

message: I know you're probably thinking "WTF?", but there are a few native speakers, and I am just curious, so if anyone has any idea, please add a sexion.Cameron Nedland 02:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhm, I have to say this seems a strange idea to me. While you're right that there are some (though not many) native speakers, I doubt if there is anyone among them who is not bilingual (ie fluent in at least one other language). And since the phonetic inventory of an "average" indoeuropean language is probably slightly broader than the phonetic inventory of Esperanto, it seems likely that this "second" native language and not Esperanto would determine the difficulties he would have to face if he wanted to learn English as well. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 13:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, alright, sorry.Cameron Nedland 15:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway, afaik, all native Esperanto speakers have picked it up from second language parents, so it's likely that the paremts' accent shines through just as much as unifying traits among Esperanto-speakers, themselves. 惑乱 分からん 20:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esperanto 

message: Mozambique is a country, not a language, and it's a multilingual country, to boot. I think it makes no sense to have sections for different countries in this article, because people from the same country may speak different languages, and therefore encounter different difficulties when they learn English. FilipeS 21:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Plus, they're completely unsourced so don't be afraid to take 'em out.  Keep the Indian subcontinent for now, though.  AEuSoes1 21:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, not a bad idea.  Might take a bit of research.  AEuSoes1 20:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mozambique, Liberia, etc.

message: No, Finns are not dumb, for God's sake! EVERYONE pronounces the bilabial plosive VOICED.. maybe some old people don't, and them being the "majority".. oh well, let's give people the wrong idea.. --84.249.253.201 00:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that the ability to reliably perceive and [re]produce a certain sound not found in the phonetic inventory of your native tongue is strongly correlated with your IQ (or that the size of the phonetic inventory of a language is related to the intelligence of the people who speak it). The external links at the bottom of the article might give you examples of Finnish speakers that devoice their bilabial plosives, sometimes even word-initially (eg. http://accent.gmu.edu/searchsaa.php?function=detail&speakerid=177 > see the phonetic transcription of bring; the under-ring below the IPA symbol tells you that the sound is slightly devoiced [though not aspirated - so it's not a real English p;]). --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 15:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finnish 

message: "/h/ may be pronounced as a voiced velar plosive [g] so that Hitler may be [gʲi.tlʲɛr]." Why Hitler? Since when is Hitler an English word? It's a German surname right? I've changed it to reflect a true and indisputible English word. Peter1968 08:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good thinking.  "Hitler" was an actual example in a book but you're right, it's a German loanword.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian example is a little off... 

message: One of the major differences between Dutch, spoken in the Netherlands, and Dutch, spoken in Belgium (Flanders), is the realisation of foreign (especially English) sounds. The most important one is the so-called "spellingsuitspraak" (spelling pronunciation). Whereas Dutch people pick the closest related standard language vowel to , namely , Flemish people read this vowel as if it were Dutch, in this case . Other differences concern the  and , which Flemish can pronounce, but Dutch not. Dutch say something like , and . Some Flemish TV-channels (like the commercial channel VTM) even use this different pronunciation in their news broadcasts. I think it would be a good idea to split up "Dutch" into "Dutch" (Netherlands) and "Dutch" (Flanders), or "Dutch" (Belgium).
This list of differences is not complete, but it should give you an idea of my arguments.
80.200.13.73 18:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a little confused.  It sounds as though you are saying that English has  and Flemish speakers pronounce it as . Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flemish ! 

message: The notes are a bit misleading. An initial [s] appears in a few German words like <Sex>. Though a loanword phonemically, it's still not exactly an unusual word for a native speaker, so most native German speakers are capable of forming an initial [s]. Also, isn't the <r> Rammstein uses uvular? It'd be a bit odd to find an alveolar trill in a native German speaker's pronunciation (though I'm sure someone someone speaks a German dialect that uses alveolar trills rather than uvular ones).
The reason Germans are likely to pronounce <qu> as /kv/ is also connected to realising <w> as /v/ rather than /w/ -- <qu> is realised somewhat along the lines of /kw/ ([w] being a semi-vowel and all that). If you already realise /w/ as [v], it's not a far step to realising /kw/ as [kv]. 91.0.116.92 17:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  German 

message: so talking about announcing changes on talk page; I deleted a line stating that there is a difficulty distinguishing definite and indefinite articles (a/the) which I can't recall having heard ever, I think the presence of definite/indefinite adjectives in Latvian might be a reason (for the ability to use the/a properly), whereas not being able to distinguish def./indef. adjectives in Latvian is one of the most frequent errors native Russian speakers commit, so I think this should be atributed to Russian (and similar languages), so I deleted it and substituted with the good ole ð > d, this is a staple, (unless they pronounce it like "z" how the older generations were tought to pronounce it during soviet era). Okyea 13:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latvian 

message: I have removed from the article the following items, which are valuable in themselves, but belong elsewhere, since the present article is concerned with "Non native pronunciations of English" (my emphasis).
[Removed items >]
Grammar differences (for example the lack or surplus of tense, number, gender etc.) in different languages often lead to grammatical mistakes that are telltale signs of their native language.  Sometimes non-verbal body language, facial expressions, or other cues also give away the origin of the speaker. 
(re Bosnian / Croatian / Serbian:)
* Difficulty with gender pronouns, because personal pronouns may be used for normally gender-neutral inanimate objects as well (like in English) but with a gender different from the one used in English.  For example, English ship is usually neuter but can sometimes be feminine while it is masculine in Štokavian).
* Difficulty with articles such as "a" and "the" as they do not exist in Štokavian languages; the closest approximations are demonstrative adjectives like "some" or "one" and "that".
(re Bulgarian:)
* Sometimes "he" or "she" is used where "it" should.
* Overuse of definite articles, especially in phrases whose Bulgarian equivalents require articles, like "the Bulgarians usually..." instead of "Bulgarians usually..."
(re Cantonese:)
* Difficulty with verb tenses and plurals in general, as they have no direct equivalence in Chinese grammar.
* Speakers may have difficulty with pronoun gender: (he, she, and it) since spoken Chinese does not make gender distinction in pronouns (although these words have different hànzì).
* Introducing end-of-sentence particles that are non-existent in English (this occurs primarily in informal writing rather than in speech).
(re Dutch:)
* Use of the present continuous/progressive ("-ing") rather than simple present: "He has a car" becomes "He is having a car."
(re Finnish:)
*There may be an absence of the word "please". In Finnish, politeness generally comes from tone of speech and the use of formal pronouns. The expression "ole/olkaa hyvä" (for "please") is generally used only in formal settings or when stressing a specific issue politely.
* In Finnish, there is only one pronoun for "he" and "she," and needing to remember to distinguish the two can cause slip-ups. There are also no articles like "the" and "a" and Finns may have difficulty remembering to include them when speaking.
(re German:)
* Inappropriate use of "he/she" pronouns for animals and inanimate objects. (German nouns have grammatical gender, so a foot is a "he", a child an "it", and a newspaper a "she".)
* Especially beginners tend to say "it gives" instead of "there is" / "there are", which is the literal translation.
* Saying "I stand up" instead of "I get up (from sleeping)" - German for getting up is "ich stehe auf," or literally, "I stand up."
* Saying "a friend of me" instead of "a friend of mine." German is "ein Freund von mir."
* Saying "can I become [sth.]" instead of "can I have [sth.]?". This is because the German word bekommen (to obtain, to get) looks and sounds similar to the English to become. This may result in odd questions such as "can I become a beefsteak?".
* Saying "I ask this question for many years and I don't get a response" instead of "I have been asking this question for many years and I haven't got(ten) a response." In German, present tense can be used to describe processes that have begun in the past and are still unfinished in the present as English present perfect tense does. The German version would be "Ich stelle diese Frage seit Jahren und bekomme keine Antwort".
(re Indic languages:)
* Use of the present continuous/progressive ("-ing") rather than simple present: "He has a car" becomes "He is having a car."
* The use of the double-positive, "Yeah, right," which in colloquial native English is a flippant way of saying "No" but to an Indian speaker of English is merely a double affirmation of correctness
* Use of "isn't it?" in place of all other tag questions: "He is tall, isn't it?"
* Vocabulary variations: "stay" or "sit" instead of "live" (in a particular place), "cabin" instead of "office", "sit with" for "have a meeting with". 
* Hindi speakers tend to translate more idiomatic or syntactically foreign phrases into English word-for-word; for example when someone says "बैठो, न?" that translates to "sit, no?" or "sit, न?". Another example would be the use of the word "only" where in Hindi one would say "मैने ही कीया" which would translate directly to "I only did it" where it should be "I did it." 
(re Korean:)
* May reverse "yes" and "no" for a negative question. This is because the Korean words for "yes" and "no" are similar to "That's right" and "That's wrong" respectively. ("Didn't you bring your book?" "Yes, I didn't" meaning "You're right, I didn't.")
(re Mandarin Chinese:)
* Speakers may have difficulty with pronoun gender: (he, she, and it) since spoken Chinese does not make gender distinction in pronouns (although these words have different hànzì).
(re Nigerian languages:)
* Words from Nigerian languages are often injected into speech. 
* Questions are sometimes constructed as a statement followed by "sha" and a rising tone. Another way of constructing a question is to use "shebi" or "abi" as a marker at the beginning of the sentence. 
* The meanings of "no" and "yes" are reversed for negative questions relative to standard English ("Yes, I have no bananas"). People often say "I'm coming" as they go away, meaning they'll be back soon.
*re Polish:)
* A few commonly used false friends, most prominently "actually" with intended meaning of "currently".
* Problems with articles, since Polish does not have them.
* Inappropriate use of "he/she" pronouns for animals and inanimate objects.
(re Portuguese:)
** "Deception" used when the intended word was "disappointment."
** "Actual" used when the intention was "current."
** "To pretend" used when the intention was "to intend."
** "push" may be confused with "pull" because puxar means "to pull" in Portuguese.
* A common mistake is to use the word "nothing" instead of "anything" because in Portuguese both concepts are expressed by the same word ("nada"). An example: "I didn't do nothing" when one intends to say "I didn't do anything".
(re Romanian:)
* Common mistakes due to Romanian cognates with different meanings ("false-friends"): 
** "Eventually" used when the intended word was "probably." 
** "Actual" used when the intention was "current."
* Some speakers may have difficulty in using prepositions. Romanian is an inflected language and use of prepositions is less extensive than in English. While English prepositions modify the meaning of verbs, in Romanian there are separate words for each meaning (e.g. "go in" = "a intra", "go out" = "a ieşi", "go away" = "a pleca", "go ahead" = "a continua".)
* A significant number of Latinate words have identical or very similar spelling in Romanian and English, making pronunciation confusing.
(re Russian:)
* Inappropriate use of “he”/“she” when referring to animals or inanimate objects.  
* Difficulty with articles such as “a” and “the”.
(re Swedish:)
* Occasional difficulty in verb conjugations (e.g. "they is" etc.). Swedish verbs do not inflect for person.
(re Tagalog:)
* Speakers may mix up "he," "she," and "it." Tagálog does not distinguish gender in pronouns.
(re Turkish:)
* Turkish lacks any grammatical gender, so a female person may be accidentally referred to as "he" and a male as "she".
[< Removed items]
These are all valuable points -- but they do not belong here. == Picapica 19:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For those wishing to discuss this issue, there is a conversation here.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 05:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Items not directly related to pronunciation