Talk:French people/Archive 1

message: French (français) and french speaker (Francopho) are note the same reality. For example in Canada, about 6 to 8 millions of persons speak french, but very few of them are french. Morover,  a french (a person whom have french natinolity) don't speak necessarly french.  
:Umm, I'm not sure thats an accurate statement. I'm a Canadian and have lived in Quebec and I can tell you of the Francophones in Canada, there are large numbers who are ethnic French and in fact they are the main ethnic element of the whole nation (23 %) here other than those of British Isles origin. (see List of Canadians by ethnicity) for more information. Epf 22:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  French and Francophone is not the same... 

message: Greetings,
I see a lot of debate regarding this french history here, I was doing an research regarding the celtics which was very much accurate information and very free flowing in my research and now when i come back for further studies..it is gone.. that makes me pretty sad.. and from what i see here.. when to much people talk about one subject(s) and stretch on just one or two word's for correction, it all get messed up and most time the TRUTH is always taken down.. i have been reseaching for years now and using wikipedia which gives some very  profound information, that you will not get anywhere online nor in the study stores...
I really hope you all don't delete this article as it is worthly to people around the world and not just to a few that might be called french people....history should be accepted at all point and angles...
sparklelight209.94.219.15 01:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have been researching for years about the Celts, and the best you have found so far is a Wikipedia article about the French ? I must have misunderstood. Rama 08:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I have never seen the French refered to as an "ethnic group". I might consider that this is FALSE (to adopt your elegant capitalisation). Your whole discourse seems to date back from the 19th century; I have very little interest at what you see when you "look from within", I want scientific quotations. Rama 15:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celts 

message: The portion of this article entitled "Military History" is written in an inappropriate fashion which is also unacademic. The commentary on the wars "lost" and "won" is xenophobic. For example, on WWI the author wrote: "Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline". Furthermore, I do not think any serious student will reduce the outcome of most wars to one word, be it won, lost or tied. There are also factual errors. The invaison of Gaul was by the Romans and not by the Italians. Not only is the author biased, he is ignorant and does not appreciate how ethnicities change with time and are not absolutes (The concept of a Frenchman is as old as the Revolution just as that of an Italian is as old as the Risorgimento and that only among the elite). While a section on Military History is appropriate, I feel this entire section should be removed and rewritten from scratch.
To all those reading this article for information, I recommend disregarding that section in its entirety until the problem has been fixed.
Daniel (Montreal)
Oct. 26, 2005 -- 22:25 EST
I vote for this one as non-featured article... Ericd 23:39, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Questions: Military History 

message: According to "Australian population: ethnic origins" in June 1999 the number was closer to 86330.  2 million is very far off.
http://elecpress.monash.edu.au/pnp/free/pnpv7n4/v7n4_3price.pdf
I agree; 2 million for Australia is implausible, and furthermore there's no source listed.  I'm removing it.  Mjs 11:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone estimated 2 million Australians had some degree of French ancestry. After all the English-speaking peoples worldwide had frequent contact with France for thousands of years. Same goes for any European country to share borders with France (Belgium, Italy, Spain and Germany). It appears sarcastic than realistic, so that edit was removed. + Mike D 26 03:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  French In Australia 

message: This article is still biased. For me French People are people with French nationality.... That's a POV that I  share with the French Republic no less. I think that according to the NPOV rule it has to be expressed in the article and not censored. What is an ethnic French ? As of today there's no official definition in France. What's the source for the numbers ? As of today there's also no census for religions in France ? There is even less official census crossing datas on religion and ethnic groups. Of course there may be some studies leading to various estimations. Can someone quote a scientific article that 1 - define what is a "Français de souche" 2 - has a methodology to serious estimate of their number ? As of today this article has no source, and his crypto-racist, understating that there's some kind of real French people (Français de souche/Ethnic French) what else a "pure French race" ?.  I'm sorry but the large majority of the Arabs living in France are French.  It's sad to read that the Arabs living in France are not French people. What if I wrote that Afro-American are not American people ? Ericd 22:56, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thus this article is supposed to be about the "French ethnic group" not "French people"... Defining French people by ethnicity fails NPOV.Ericd 09:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Eric, the series of articles on ethnic groups does not fail the policy of neutrality. In the English language a "people" usually does not mean a group of individuals sharing the same citizenship and nothing else (even though some do). See my posting further up. //Big Adamsky 22:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not taboo in France, it's just taboo for this guy. Ericd is not representing France (in spite of what he claims). There is some studies about the number of muslims and about the opinions of french muslims, like this one. --Elias2 16:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mandatory philosophy... Am I brainwashed by official French doctrine ? I think I made a better use of my brain than those who claims the existence of a French ethnic group without any definition or source. I don't like the process of disqualifying me because of who I am instead discussing about what I think. Ericd 11:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: There are 5 to 6 millions Muslim in France

message: By the way its fun to see Alexandre Dumas photo to illustrate the "Français de souche" what do you think of adding the photo Zinedine Zidane ? Ericd 23:05, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry I didn't quite understand that, could you elaborate at all? Cheers, -  >>michaelg|talk 12:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's probably because Alexandre Dumas was 1/4 black... The Ogre 14:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Alexandre Dumas

message: The more time I spend on Wikipedia the more I think that the Frenchman character suit me like a glove.
This is a direct translation of a French idomatic expression. BTW you know about the man who had five penisses ?
Ericd 23:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Je dirais plutôt que tu as choisi le rôle du bouffon de service. --Elias2 17:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oui, le bouffon de service. Au moins à la différence d'autres quand j'écris des conneries je sais que c'est des conneries. Cette discussion est tellement chiante sur le fonds qu'il vaut mieux s'amuser un peu. Ericd 01:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Plus je passe de temps sur Wikipedia plus je trouve que le rôle du Français me va comme un gant.

message: I'm still new to Wikipedia but what is the policy regarding ethnicity articles on 'mixed' ethnicities? Would the Métis of Canada and the United States be considered 'French'? Semi-Lobster
:The Métis of Canada and the United States are either Canadian or American. Not French. Even if their ancestors once were. The Ogre 13:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Métis?

message: :Hello, I'm French. There are some things to know about french people. Excuse my english.
:The first sentence of this article is : "The French (French: les Français), Frenchmen or French people, are an ethnic group of mixed pre-Celtic, Celtic, Germanic and Italic origins which make up the majority of the inhabitants of France in Western Europe." This is false. You should put "was" instead of "are". Now, there are many many French who are from North-African, African or Indochinese (and others) origins. And there are inhabitants of islands overseas (Réunion, Guadeloupe, Martinique, etc.) who are French too.
:Ethnicity: until XIXth century, there was about half of population of France who did't speak french (or similars dialects) so by definition wasn't french. Even the French Canadians are not easy to understand for any French from France (and I don't even speak about Cajuns). So could we say that peoples from former french colonies are french people ? I don't think so. And one more point: other languages than french in France like Provencal, Breton or Basque are speaking by very very very few people (only by old people). You should mention that. 
:Good bye fellows. 84.7.139.78 18:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For your information Cajuns and French Canadians are "ethnic" French. Despite variations and the gradual change of the French language overtime it doesn't take away from their natural origin. Indeed many immigrants who received French citizenship are French nationally but ethinically they are not. The article primarily refers to the indigenous ethnic French people. 
JJstroker 09:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You answered your own question in that quote an ethnic group of mixed pre-Celtic, Celtic, Germanic and Italic origins which make up the majority of the inhabitants of France , it clearly states the MAJORITY as in most French are descended from those ancient tribes, the north africans and other groups you speak of are a MINORITY and have their own ethnic groups Angryafghan 20:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: This is typically parisian/jacobin POV. Occitan was spoke in half France and it is as far from french than spanish or italian. There were two big areas: oïl languages and oc languages. Originally, french are people who are living in parisian and nearby areas. Occitan, basque, etc. became french only because the republican school prohibited native language of the children. 84.7.134.139 10:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I see TV5, and if canadian sets aren't subtitled, I didn't understand it, but maybe I'm stupid. Lot of Africans speak french too and there are not always french. 84.7.134.139 10:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: It's very simple: french is nationality, not ethnic. 84.7.134.139 10:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What is a French now

message: There are people speaking the French language in Switzerland (like me). But we do not identify ourself as French (we are Vaudois, Genevois, Valaisan..., then Swiss, then European), we do not claim a strong cultural continuity with the French, we were never French (except maybe when Napoleon conquered Europe) and will never be French. In fact, with have a very long political history that as nothing to do with France (part of Switzerland has been in Savoy and Burgundy (about 1000 years ago), but not France (okay, except Canton of Jura, from 1793 to 1815). Switzerland has a border with France and is partially French-speaking, that's all you can say. French is spoken in my part of Switzerland because it was a very important language. Previously, Franco-Provençal was spoken here (and still is in a few remote places of Valais). Marc Mongenet 23:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongly agree with Marc, except that saying that Romand is an ethnic group looks like stretching the meaning of the term. Oh, and Canton of Geneva was also French for a few years (1793–1813), but this has no influence whatsoever on the origin of the people. Schutz 12:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not sure if I follow the argument correctly; let me rephrase it with my own words. You are saying that French-Speaking Swiss descends from the Lombards, and the Lombards also went on to invade Burgundy and France. So we have two separate branches, one who went to France and became "les Français", and one who went to Switzerland and became "les Suisses-Romands". Did I get this right ? Schutz 14:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: As for the Huguenots, this looks like a good point; however, I just did a quick check (nothing encyclopedic for now, just a Google search), and only about 8000 of them came to Switzerland, compared to a population of around 900,000 at the time, so their influence on the "ethnicity" of Switzerland is rather limited (especially compared to other 20th century migrations). Schutz 14:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The Lombards have never invaded France (just some short raids), they went in Northern Italy in VIIth century and came from danubian countries (Hungary, Croatia...). There were two kingdoms who landed both on eastern France and Switzerland : Burgundians (germanic tribe) in Vth-VIth century  and Savoy (wich extended on actual Piedmont too) in XIIIth century. Charles I, Duke of Burgundy tried to invade Switzerland in 1470's but he failed. Felipeh 14:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: You can read the history of Switzerland (French-speaking part included) and the history of Vaud, Geneva, Valais, Canton of Neuchâtel, Canton of Fribourg and Canton of Jura in their respective articles. And read also Savoy and Burgundy. Marc Mongenet 16:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure I know exactly what you are trying to argue here either. The fact remains there isn't a single unified "Swiss ethnic group". The French-speaking Swiss are distinct from the German-speaking Swiss as well as the Italians of southern Switzerland. If the French-speaking Swiss constitue a distinct, yet related, ethnic group from the peoples of France is a matter of debate. From the history I have read in the links I and other people have provided above, it seems very clear the French-speaking Swiss are quite related to the peoples of France in terms of language, culture and history. 69.157.109.6 19:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In terms of language you are right. In terms of history, very wrong. French history is more related to English or even German history than to Swiss history. For culture, it is half true. Of course, Swiss Romand do read French litterature, watch French TV... But the political mentality, the cantonal identity, is typically Swiss, with roots going back to more than 5 centuries, when the Swiss cantons had no border with the French kingdom (and nobody spoke French, except the elites). Marc Mongenet 21:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, and yes I meant to say Burgundians, not Lombards (the link I posted also says Burgundians, not Lombards). It was a long day of editing. 69.157.109.6 19:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, even before the arrival of the Burdgundians, the peoples of Switzerland were of the Gallo-Roman culture. When the Burdgundians invaded Switzerland and France, they settled in the west and assimilated into the Gallo-Roman culture. When the Alemanni invaded around the same period, they settled in the north-east and central areas, but heavily retained their Germanic culture and identity. The German-speaking Swiss still retain close ties with the southwestern Alemannic Germans to this very day. With that said, the Gallo-Roman culture of the French-speaking/"Burgundian" Swiss also remains and is related to that of the peoples of France.(Franco-Provençal language, Swiss French). 69.157.109.6 21:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Indeed there was, but now it doesn't mention Belgian and Swiss Francophones, except to say that they aren't French. Angus McLellan 19:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Les Suisses''' are not '''les Français'''

message: This discussion is sinking in a sea of POV. The writers of the article have obviously tried to present a balanced picture. They have not yet succeeded to perfection but they are human beings. If every article were deleted because of a comparable lack of references, there would not be much left in Wikipedia. Rather than jumping up and down because someone has had the temerity to go against 200 years of French Government policy, sort out the references. I have begun by inserting the Insee link as a demonstration of the lack of easily obtainable, relevant statistics owing to government policy. (RJP 10:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: INSEE link

message: Given all the unsourced points of view, dubious statistics and other original research that used the litter this article (as evidenced by the hot deletion debate), I propose we make a fresh start, and that we stick to verifiable, sourced claims. David.Monniaux 18:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fresh start 

message: I don't see why it was removed there are some signs to identify French people.
Ericd 00:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New picture proposal 

message: I don't see why my recent contributions were deleted. They're as serious as the rest of this article. Ericd 01:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now, they are not. The article will clearly show, prove and scientifically establish (by repeating it over and over) that French people also wear a white vest with tricolour suspenders. And a bra underneath. It's true, I saw it in Monty Python's Flying Circus. Rama 08:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right but only in public at home we are more relax  :-) Ericd 08:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion 

message: This article had a very bad start. It was first a compilation of myth about the French being rude written by some contributors with a French-bashing agenda.
Then it was rebooted. At first I believe it was an improvement, but after carefull reading it was worse. This article became a complitation of "unsourced points of view, dubious statistics and other original research" (as coined by David) trying to define the French as an ethnic group.
The French are people with French citizenship. That's the POV of the French Republic but also what is accepted by international law and international organisms.
Well some people here may not care about the POV of the French governement, but the fact is that except some case of double citizenship people considered by French by the French governement are also considered as French by other countries.
According to some I have a problem because ethnicity, even as a concept, is taboo in France. According to others (or the same) I have another problem because "in the English language as "people" usually does not mean a group of individuals sharing the same citizenship and nothing else". 
I may accept that "people" is polysemic. If it has several sense why should the definition of French people as an ethnic group be predominant ? It would be plainly stupid if I wrote "US people are an ethnic group". It's really unencyclopedic to start an article with a fuzzy title and claim without any valid source that one of the sense you could give to the title is the real one. A serious encyclopedic article should at least give the various senses of the title. A step further would be to have several articles with non-fuzzy titles.
As of today I think that the insistance to keep this article about French people as an article dealing with the "French ethnic group" (which is not defined in a scientific way inside the article) is either the result of the ignorance of some contributors or the result of a ideologic agenda. I think this applies as well to other articles about "ethnic groups", the choice to define the the Pole as an ethnic group instead of defining them as citizen of Poland is pure ideology.
What else ? The US governement and many other countries are collecting census data about the people's origins. The French didn't. Obviously, the French have an ideologic bias they're retrograde... Some may even think that the French are denying reality in a near stalinian way. And I am myself biased by official French ideology. Bullshit !
We are not that stupid. Everyone will agree that the people come from somewhere and they parents come from somewhere too, that's an objective fact. The French INED (Institut National d'Etudes Démographiques) is collecting and publishing a lot datas about immigration even if they got the figures by indirect means.
Let's notice now that the fact that some governements are collecting datas about people of French origin doesn't give any scientific validity to the existence of a French ethnic group. First of all NPOV require that this POV should have the same status as the French governement POV. Secondly self-proclaimed origin might be useful for the knowledge of migrations but they're far to be valid data about ethnicity. For instance I'm pretty certain that someone from the French Antilles will self-identify him as French in an US census. And what's the French community in London ? At least 2/3 of the French living in London I know are of north-African origins.
Ericd 10:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that in French, the translation of "French people" is peuple français, which paraphrases directly into "French national community", that is all people who have the French nationality, regardless of origins, religion, language or anything else. The mere title of this article is ill-chosen. Rama 12:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Peuple Français" = French citizens = which is the real sovereign of France (principe de souveraineté populaire). In fact French people themselve have decided that their community will have other basis than ethnicity. Ericd 12:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is pure junk 

message: ===One question===
These statistics include an American ancestry claim, numberring 20,188,305  distinct from the various American natives ancestry claims. So we can suppose that most of the people making such a claim are in fact of European, Asian, or African ancestry. We could suppose that 3% of them are of French ancestry. That makes roughly 600,000. --Teofilo talk 18:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that most people have enough data about their ancestry for calculating what might be their "majority ancestry". They may know that a great grand-father or a great grand-mother was from Scotland or from Ireland, but they might have no idea where their other great grand-parents were from. And don't people lie about their identity, for example in order to protect their children? The Human Stain is a novel speaking about a man who deliberately hides his African ancestry and assumes a Jewish identity. --Teofilo talk 12:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  American census bureau ancestry claims 

message: These statistics include an American ancestry claim, numberring 20,188,305  distinct from the various American natives ancestry claims. So we can suppose that most of the people making such a claim are in fact of European, Asian, or African ancestry. We could suppose that 3% of them are of French ancestry. That makes roughly 600,000. --Teofilo talk 18:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: One question

message: Do you really believe the people claiming a French ancestry have really zero British or German or African ancestry? Should we take those claims at face value? --Teofilo talk 18:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that most people have enough data about their ancestry for calculating what might be their "majority ancestry". They may know that a great grand-father or a great grand-mother was from Scotland or from Ireland, but they might have no idea where their other great grand-parents were from. And don't people lie about their identity, for example in order to protect their children? The Human Stain is a novel speaking about a man who deliberately hides his African ancestry and assumes a Jewish identity. --Teofilo talk 12:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Another question

message: So, untill the creation of the french nation, in France there wasn't:
* any common language (Langue d'Oc, Langue d'Oïl, breton, etc. : not dialects but different languages)
* any common genetic ancestry
* any common law (common law in north and roman law in south)
* any common institution (pays d'Etat, pays de gouvernement)
* any common history (except those of the kings since XIIIth century)
* any common culture
* any common legend or religious trend
* any common type of family structure
* any common rural organisation (openfield, bocage, etc.)
* etc., etc.
So, what defines a French people?
Famous historian Fernand Braudel wrote that the France (and the French) exist because it has evident natural boundary (Rhine, Alpes, Pyrenees, Ocean, Mediterranean). History has been influenced by the geography. That doesn't make an ethnic group. 
I don't know for the German, Lucius1976, and I don't see why the French should be like the German. Have German been influenced until recent years by so many ethnic group in their history, as the French ? I don't think so. Whatever, talking about the French people is like talking about the British people (instead of English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh) or about Spanish people (instead of Catalan, Basque, Castillan, Galician, Aragonese). The specific centralisation in France (with first steps in the late Middle Ages, but firstly strong in XVIIth century and decreasing since the 1980's) has made the illusion of a French people but it is false at all scientific POV (see upside). Felipeh | babla 14:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'am tempted to rewrote your first sentence as "So, untill the creation of the french state, in France there wasn't:". The third Republic did a lot work promote the myth that France was a state-nation. Ericd 18:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Felipeh laisse tomber. Tu sais bien que nous avons tord et que Braudel est un con. L'extrème-droite à toujours raison puisqu'elle a la science infuse ;-) Ericd 18:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Thats's exactely what I'm going to do. Felipeh | babla 22:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What defines a French people ?

message: There are now 3 pages on the issue:
# French people
# French citizenship and identity
# Demographics of France
The more pages the better... in my opinion.Less arguing that way.--Burgas00 21:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited your message in order to create links.--Teofilo talk 12:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3 pages on French people 

message: Dear Lucius,
Using estimates is no problem as far as you know where they come from, and how they were calculated. Why do you insist on saying there are 100 000 French in the Channel Islands? Why not twice? or half? --Teofilo talk 12:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The inhabitants on the Channel Islands off the coast of France are officially part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. They speak both English (the islands' official language) and a Norman dialect of French, Nourmaund. They aren't officially French people, but subjects to the British crown, and this goes back to 1066 AD (nearly a millennia) when the Normans invaded and claimed England for William the Conqueror. You may heard some Channel Islanders got a special saying: "Britain does not own us, we own Britain" indicates their relative ties with the Normans and they are surely related to the Windsor royal family. I don't think it's meant literal, but a tongue-and-cheek joke with some historical proof. The islands' people carried on some of their ancestral language, customs and traditions. +Mike D 26 04:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Estimates 

message: This expression is meaningless. The linguistic homogeneity inside the territory of contemporary France is a very recent phenomenon. A few hundred years ago the people living in that territory spoke many different languages. --Teofilo talk 12:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "shared language and origin in France" discourse 

message: The 54 million estimate is roughly the number of French nationals. That includes people that may claim a non-French ancestry if a survey was made. So how can you put this figure in the same table alongside the number of French ancestry claims in the USA? --Teofilo talk 13:04, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Despite the fact France had lost millions of people in wars and settled millions of other "Frenchmen" in overseas colonies, the "45 or 50 million Frenchmen" paraphrase is repeated in France to count how many ethnic and national French people there are. In 2005, the population estimates for France are 65 million (includes resident aliens and immigrants of other races or nations), while 30-40 million more have French ancestry, and up to 10 million other "Frenchmen" under different national citizenship throughout Europe shares the border with metropolitian France. I guess we should say "100-110 million Frenchmen" to keep it accurate or exact. I believe over 15 million Americans claimed French ancestry (see main aritcle: French American) and may include 10 million French-Canadians in Canada, mostly are francophones with a higher fluency in the English language other than a minority of those in Quebec speaks/knows only French. + Mike D 26 04:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Using unconsistent figures in the same table 

message: Is there any rule to ban  or block anonymous users that don't care about the NPOV policy ? Ericd 18:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, for repeated POV violations and/or their edits are obscene, offensive, inappropriate, and considered vandalism. If this continues, please report to any admin on the issue, but tell us who the culprits are and we can block or warn them never do it again. Wikipedia rules prohibit vandalism as much to curtail on nonsense edits. We don't allow profanity, vulgarity and abusive edits, and some of us admins strictly enforced these rules. +Mike D 26 03:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is there any rule to ban or block anonymous users that don't care about the NPOV policy ?

message: Alors voila, c'est simple :
Il y a en France une idéologie officielle qui denie l'existence d'une race Française. Cette idéologie est bien entendue une création de la République, régime cosmopolite par essence. Sauf que le mythe d'une ethnie Française à largement été créé par les écoles de la République, vous savez "Nos ancètres les Gaulois". L'extrème-droite de l'époque  qu'est-ce qu'elle foutait ? Et bien elle soutenait l'existence d'identitées régionales. Frédéric Mistral qui était plutôt Rébublicain mais qui défendait la langue Provençale s'en est trouvé le cul entre deux chaises accusé par les uns d'être anti-républicain et par les autres d'être vendu à la "Gueuse". Si on cherche des ethnies en France on va en trouver on va même en trouver beaucoup - par exemple les Niçois se considèrent Niçois pas Provençaux -Il y a même un mouvement indépendantiste à Nice (assez folklorique il est vrai)-. Seulement voila on ne trouvera pas l'ethnie Française parce qu'elle n'a jamais existée. Ericd 18:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: L'exemple de la Yougoslavie est un bon exemple. Avant la guerre, les principales différences entre Croates, Serbes et Bosniaques étaient la religion (qui n'est pas un critère ethnique), des différences dialectales (mais une même langue, le serbo-croate), et des différences politiques essentiellement basées sur le fait que les Croates étaient plus riches et plus proches des Allemands que les Serbes. Sinon, c'est la même base ethnique. Le conflit yougoslave est un parfait exemple de l'instrumentalisation (je vais pas retracer l'histoire de la Yougoslavie, voir les articles correspondant) d'un concept ethnique fallacieux pour une lutte dont le vrai sens est bassement la conquête du pouvoir par des cliques. A rapprocher de l'histoire des Hutus et des Tutsis dont les colonisateurs ont fait deux ethnies, alors qu'à l'origine il s'agissait d'une part d'éleveurs d'autre part de cultivateurs. Pour ma part, je préfère les concepts de groupes culturels (au sens ethnologique) ou linguistiques ou de nation, au concept d'ethnie, qui conservera toujours ce relent d'idéologie malsaine porté à son zenith par un certain peintre raté autrichien. Felipeh | babla 19:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Autrichiens ? foutaise ! il n'y a jamais eu d'Autrichiens seulement des Allemands ! Ericd 01:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Mais les autres identités n'ont absolument pas disparu ! Felipeh | babla 20:50, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I was saying that allegated "French people" didn't have destroyed other identities of France, such as Occitan people (even if they mostly speak french) in southern France (under the line Bordeaux-Lyon). Felipeh | babla 23:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And before that, I was saying too that the idea of ethnicity was tragically used by some austrian frustrated painter. Felipeh | babla 23:04, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  Wanna-be painter. But it rather was the alleged superiority of some ethnicity, rather than ethnicity itself. --Lucius1976 23:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: "Communist" Lapaz here! That the CIA world factbook claims that there exist such a thing as "French ethnic" is irrelevant. I trust better Fernand Braudel or even "murderers" Eric Hobsbawm or the inventor of the "communist" concept of imagined communities. Anyway... i rather be qualified as communist than as racist. I know that in English, the term "race" is widely used, especially in the US. But, sorry for those of you who don't believe it, something like the "French race" DOES NOT EXIST. Why don't you go on nazi sites to write those claims? Don't you realize that all French people - who write in Wikipedia English because they know how to speak English and that this Wikipedia is not reserved to the "English race" (sic) - will endlessly revert these stupid changes? Why don't you read some history books instead of quoting the CIA world factbook as if it was the Bible? By the way, don't you think the CIA has done enough mistakes in the past twenty years (do you really want me to write that they created the Talibans and Ben Laden?) BASTA YA !!! Lapaz
Pour information, je ne nie pas que le concept d'"ethnie" existe, ni même qu'il existe peut-être une "ethnie française". 
En revanche, je refuse que l'on déblatère à longueur d'article sur une notion qui n'est définie nulle part: "Ethnie" n'a aucune définition, et l'article principale sur la question est très insatisfaisant. Il est vague, inclut sans explication des critères religieux dans la notion d'ethnie alors que la plupart de auteurs excluent spécifiquement ce critère, et ne donne aucune référence. Que l'on identifie des courants de pensée différents, des auteurs importants ayant proposé des notions d'"ethnie" différentes, pas de problème; mais actuellement, on dit en substance "une 'ethnie' est un truc qui rassemble des gens, et qui dépend en gros de la couleur de peau, de la culture, de la langue ou de la religion, ad lib.". Avec une telle définition, on ne peut pas savoir si la notion est objective ou subjective (ce qui est l'un des sujets de débat ici), et ce qui peut ou non être qualifié d'"ethnie" (l'Amicale de la Fanfare des Chemins de Fer du Val-de-Travers est-elle une ethnie ? Oui ? Non ? Pourquoi ?).
Je refuse également que l'on essaye de nous faire avaler une prétendue "ethnie" de gens qui parlent le français et qui seraient, euh, blancs. Outre le fait que c'est un délire racialiste d'extrème-droite, cela ne correspond simpleemnt pas à la réalité du terrain. Les caractéristiques physiques et les coutumes changent considérablement entr la Bretagne, le pays Basque, Marseille et Strasbourg; pourquoi aurions-nous là une même ethnie ? De plus, si vous voulez faire sortir des Suisse-Romands ou des Belges de leurs gonds (et pourtant ce sont là des "ethnies" plutôt placides...), allez leur raconter qu'ils sont français ! Or, j'ai bien cru comprendre que l'un des critères pour l'"ethnie" était que l'on s'identifiait au groupe en question... (entendons-nous bien, je trouve que ce critère est complètement stupide, mais je me réserve le droit de le renvoyer à la face des gens qui le brandissent).
Les question "etniques" sont des question très sensibles (politiquement et pour des questions de sensibilité, entre autres); ce sont surtout des questions scientifiquement très complexes, et dont franchement je pense qu'elles nous dépassent de beaucoup (Notez que je n'affirme rien moi-même sur le sujet, si ce n'est que les délires à la "y'a une ethnie française qui coïncide avec les frontières actuelles et qui porte un bérêt basque" devraient rester dans un placard). Mon intuition est que si "ethni française" il y a, elle correspond probablement plus à quelque chose de france-îlien qu'à quelque chose qui recouvrirait le territoire métropolitain de la République.
Je suggère dons (pour la Xème fois...) que
* l'on se méfie des clichés et des idées naïves centrées sur la mentalité d'un pays (typiquement les USA et le Canada) et d'un époque (le XXe XXIe siècle)
* que l'on cherche des sources scientifiques sérieuses (publications scietifiques, études sociologiques et démographiques) sur le sujet plutot que d'aligner des lieux communs Rama 13:39, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: En Français c'est plus simple

message: What do u guys think about this page? I voted that we should keep it since alot of very interesting issues can be "abordés" (sorry, hangover) here... Deleting it would be a mistake since we can always merge it into the French people page later, once a consensus is established. It could include French identity in Corsica, the basque country th DOM TOMs etc....--Burgas00 12:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also the article had much info. on French descendants of South America had left a legacy of surnames in political and economic elites. True, but someone left a long list of surnames appears redundant. French expatriates and their families settled in Mexico, Cuba and Central America, one of them was Jean Rene Champion, a member of the Free French forces and was alleged as the first officer to enter the city of Paris to help liberate the citizens in August 1944. I wonder any direct French descendant like myself by the fact my father is born and lived there, but resided in the U.S. for 38 years and a naturalized citizen. I may qualify for, but don't carry dual nationality, so I have to get proof in the French embassy or their customs office (but don't plan to). Americans and Canadians (English or French) who live in France aren't treated as the "Francaises du Souche", other than anyone born or lived (but stayed) in metropolitian France. By national law, any French-born Algerian, Lebanese, Senegalese, Tahitian, Pondicherry Indian and French Guianan is a bonafide citizen, regardless of race or color of these people. Note the French Swiss and Belgians, if not born or hold citizenship in France, aren't completely French by legality, unless they became one. But a Frenchman/woman of Italian, Greek, Polish, German, Russian and Portuguese parentage, born on French soil or eligible for French citizenship, is a French person in law. + Mike D 26 03:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The French citizenship and identity page 

message: Please use colons (:) to indent replies. I suggest that we use here the « threaded tree format, like that often seen in email clients ». That way, only the first message in a section should be at the left margin. All replies to that message should have one colon (:), all replies to a reply should have two colons (::), all replies to a reply to a reply should have three (:::) and so on.--Teofilo talk 16:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Layout]] 

message: I open a new section, asking people to respect in this new section the indentation guidelines I wrote above.
Lucius, you wrote : « The whole article is about French people as ethnicity ». How can you write an article about French ethnicity without infringing the Wikipedia:No original research policy ? --Teofilo talk 17:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality dispute (new section) 

message: In my opinion this map should be erased. Firstly because it is HUGE (i wouldnt mind a small version) and secondly because it gives a false image of France. It makes people who do not know the country think that if they go to Lyon peole will be speaking a strange language called Lyonnais or thant in Bordeaux people speak Gascon rather than French. Who speaks forezien and Berrichon? The truth is that in France pretty much everyone is a native speaker of French and the few regional languages  which remain are in rapid decline. Perhaps the only ones which will  survive will be Catalan and Basque due to  support from the other side of the border.--Cassius80 15:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Firstly because it is HUGE" ... You never tried something like thumb|blablabla, did you ? Besides, this map is obviously a map about the history of languages. If it is not obvious enough, make it so. Rama 16:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

text: True, there's a common universal French language, but the corners of that country have preserved their mother tongues. My father's home town,St. Omer located in the historic Flanders region or politically, the departments of Nord and Pas-de-Calais, has a small Flemish speaking minority, but a culturally French city without a doubt. He told me some of his family are Flemings or Dutch-Belgians for hundreds of years and the two ethnic groups shared the region, their families married each other, and lived under shifting boundaries decided by wars or kings. But the Flemings in the edge of Flanders next to the French province of Artois integrated into France, after the region with St. Omer was permanently annexed in the 1650s. Flemish-speakers had declined in the past century and today, only a fraction of residents living within 30 miles from the Belgium border can be heard speaking the language. None are said monolingual while they speak French most of the time, because French was necessary, taught at schools aside with Flemish, required in government functions, and the "lingua franca" of the republic. + Mike D 26 03:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map of linguistic groups 

message: This page is really terrible. I have read a lot of baised info on wikipedia but this is by far the worst. It is very liberal one sided propaganda being force fed to the reader. It definitely needs to be redone to establish an more balanced viewpoint.
JJstroker 09:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted your "valid population box". You're evidently not familiar with the idea of a logical fallacy. Whether the French are an ethnic group, or united ethnicity, or whatever, has been the subject of debate here. You (and User:JJstroker) may wish to read petitio principii. "The French are an ethnic group/united ethnicity" (which is the matter under debate) "therefore X". No. "This page is liberal propaganda" (again the subject of debate, "French Republican propaganda" seems to be more accurate) "therefore Y". Again, not a logical argument. That doesn't - see argument from fallacy - make the conclusion you are trying to reach ("the French are an ethnic group", "this page is liberal propaganda") false (but it may lead those following the debate to that conclusion if you can't form a better argument). Angus McLellan 10:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

text: French republic law stated there's no such thing of a French ethnicity and all persons in France are included into one national entity. But, minorities are recognized in demographic data in basis of national origin instead of race. It don't matter what color they are: Black French citizens are French, so are Cambodians residing in France, and Melanesians or Pacific Islanders from French Polynesia. According to the government, there has always been strict anti-discrimination laws, but appearedly aren't enforced or France won't have the riots or demonstrations by "SOS racisme" (anti-racism student group has great political power) or North African/Arab organizations today. France admittedly has racial/ethnic issues to deal with and it's hard to say the country displayed colonial abuses in the past, as well huge "de-facto" segregation of French Muslims and cultural barriers on immigrants applied for work. I'm surprised no affirmative action laws exist in France unlike in the U.S. so how they can protect or promote fair employment hiring practices? + Mike D 26 03:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no affirmative action laws because they are not fair. All people are equal by law in France.Ocollard 16:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  French POV violation 

message: Why does half of this page have to be dedicated to explaining why French nationals of foreign extraction are also French? This is self-evident. It is the same in EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD:
*British people of Pakistani origin are also "British".
*Italian citizens of Hungarian origin (like Cicciolina) are also Italian.
*Pakistani citizens of Pashtun origin are also Pakistani.
*German citizens of Polish origin are also German.
*Spanish citizens of Morrocan origin are also Spanish.
etc...
What is the big deal? What is so special about France that we have to write whole tracts of (in my opinion) nonsense so as to explain something that is true ine every country in the world?
Can this whole issue not be resumed in the sentence: 23% of French citizens have at least partial foreign origin.???
No wonder people accuse this page of being NPOV. Instead of just pointing out a fact (some French people have foreign origins) a whole essay has to be written defending the supposed French melting pot. Globalization is a worldwide phenomenon. It is not restricted to France...
--Burgas00 19:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because this explains why the French people do not constitute an ethnic group but a nation. We've already had this discussion, haven't we? Lapaz 20:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: This does not explain why Dominique Schnapper's definition (he is after all member of the French Constitutional Council) should be deleted, especially if we agreed to keep the US State Dept definition. NPOV requires both sides to have their say. Lapaz 20:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Burgas, I'm pleased to see that you finally don't find any major problem in this article. I just want to point out that taking the example of the "list of ethnic group" is taking Wikipedia as an auto-reference. If I had the time and the will for that, I would actually go challenge this definition where it would be appropriate. The question you lift about the Turkish people is different now: you ask if only the self-definition should be admitted. But on this page we've stated the US State Dept definition; it's just that it goes so far against all major scholar works that I know off &, more importantly, against the very definition of popular sovereignty given by Rousseau. As I explain immediately below, popular sovereignty has historically worked on the combination of the concept of "people" with the concept of "nation", incarnated in the nation-state: that is why there can't be a "French ethnic group", since it goes against the definition of the French nation itself (something which has been repeated over & over here, and not only by me). Now, again, if I am intent on giving this fundamental precisions, this in no ways means that I believe there are no discrimination problems in France, or that there is no "crisis of sovereignty" (in particular relating to Europe, globalization, etc.) and of the "nation-state". One of the sign of this crisis is Epf's following comment, which shows, as Hervé Le Bras, director of the INED put it, ethnicity classification is the product of an ideology. In other words: just as the "French people" is the product of a nationalist ideology, the "French people" considered as an ethnic group is the product of a post-modern racial ideology. Epf's statement (according to which they are "both French as an ethnic group and French as a nation" would have surprised Maurice Barrès, one of the leading French nationalist intellectual in the beginning of the 20th century, Charles de Gaulle, Boulainvilliers (a Medieval author who believed the aristocrats represented a foreign, "Frankish" race, while the Third Estate represented the indigenous Gallo-Roman population), Arthur de Gobineau, founder of scientific racism and author of An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races (1853-55), etc. etc. It is an argument that can only be lifted in 2006, no one would have had this idea before. This is a clear sign of the crisis of the nation-state & of sovereignty, in which the ethnicist discourse is slowly replacing the nationalist discourse. Lapaz 18:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "There are both French as an ethnic group and French as a nation": this is a POV statement which is not shared by the vast majority of French people, as discussed in December 05-January 06 on this talk page. Le concept de souveraineté, établi d'abord par Bodin puis par Hobbes, s'est divisé après la Révolution de 1789 selon les deux concepts différenciés, l'Etat et la nation. Le concept de souveraineté populaire, inventé par Rousseau, établi une équivalence entre le peuple et la souveraineté (i.e. le peuple souverain), qui s'incarne donc dans l'Etat-nation... Un peu de philosophie politique ne fera surement pas de mal à personne sur cette page... On peut ensuite parler des problèmes post-nationaux et de la crise de la souveraineté, en faisant intervenir la question de l'Europe, des espaces trans-nationaux, etc. etc. Cela n'efface pourtant pas l'histoire passée et l'identification historique du peuple à la nation.  Lapaz 18:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: According to Boulainvilliers, the so-called "French ethnic group" were called "Franks" and were the French aristocrats (a foreign people, mind you, a Nordic race closer than the Germans than to anybody else), while the real French people (the Third Estate) were the autochtonous and vainquished Gallo-Romans. But you're not going actually to claim Boulainvilliers was right, are you?  Lapaz 18:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "There are both French as an ethnic group and French as a nation" is not merely a POV statement, and it is also based on facts. I think that it is bordering on ridiculous that you claim this is not shared by the "vast majority" of French people. I think the results from a poll that show how 1/3 of the people of France are openly racist clearly disproves that point. Even Audrey Tautou from the "Da Vinci Code" expresses how she is not of any foreign ethnic origins and is of native French descent (read her bio on Imdb). In response to your question about Boulainvilliers, I disagree with much of what he says. He is right that the original native inhabitans of France were the Gallo-Romans, but the Franks came and mixed with Gallo-Roman culture to create French culture and language. The Franks had a very small demographic impact (with most modern "ethnic French" tracing their descent to Gallic/pre-Gallic peoples), but they had instead a much larger cultural, linguistic and historical one. Epf 19:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philosophical ramblings 

message: Why dont you have one page for French, the ethnic group, like you have done for all the other european peoples and one for French citizens
Why don't we ? good question since that would resolve alot of the problems in this article. We however need some references and most that I have found are not on-line, but are literature. Eventually, when I get the time, I will separate this article into two, with one on French citizens/nationals (although this may already exist in "demographics of France") and one on indigenous "ethnic French" (i.e. the original form of this page, but with more referencing and less originial research). Epf 19:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why not have two pages 

message: Feedback? I tried to make sense of all the discussions we have had on this issue...--Burgas00 08:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New edits to definition section 

message: How come this section only focuses on the Americas? There are a number of other places in the world with significant French ancestral ties, most notably Ireland and Britain. Fergananim 14:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, the British Isles owes an applause to settlements and foundations by peoples from France being on the mainland (Europe). You might heard/read of the term "Gaullic" to self-designate ethnic origins of the French from original inhabitants, the Gauls of Celtic origin in pre-Roman France. But be in mind, France was a result of immersion of Iberians, Romans, Greeks and Franks, a Germanic people founded the kingdom by the name of "France". Many other countries like Iran, Japan and the U.S. have a common identity of its' peoples, but anthropologists and genetic science finds these peoples aren't entirely homogeneous either.  For countries partially settled by France if not ruled the lands, Chile and Argentina formerly of Spain had small percentages of people with French ancestry, but form a large porportion of politicans, economists, artists, celebrities and agriculturists. What's interesting enough is what president Charles de Gaulle, a nationalist in some ways quoted: "Nowhere in the world has the French hasn't ruled over, colonized, influenced or contributed to them. The world is entirely or partly influenced by the culture and people of France". Whether it's truth or his opinion, France was one of the world's great powers in a period of time. + Mike D 26 03:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: MD, more countries have french blood you didn't include. In the 17th cen. French huguenots arrived in South Africa to get away from religious persecution. The Afrikaaner culture is part-Dutch and part-French. Some of the Afrikaans language contains French words. When the french people came, erected "maisons" and vineyards in a land not known for wineries. south Africa exports wines to global markets compete against French top brands or wines from california. Tens-thousands of French went to Brazil in late 19 cen. to bustling cities, others created plantations and farms. French blood reached all corners of the earth, former French citizens long lived in Egypt, and a few are in the Philippines. what can I say? Les francaises everywhere. 207.200.116.134 03:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Population with French ancestry

message: I added the number of French people living in Spain. Maybe someone should consider to swap to a similar table than Bulgarians, Germans, etc pages. If the addition of Spain is not OK for some reason, please remove accordingly. Regards, E  Asterion u talking to me? 21:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added more nations to the "French people by ethnic or national descent" page: American-French, Chinese-French, Indian-French and Swedish-French. The list has 20 nationalities to represent famous people of France of diverse origins, such as Charles de Gaulle, a native of Lille, France was said to had Dutch and German branches in his family tree and this is common for people of Northern/Northeast France. I want to note Monaco is a small principality legally outside the French republic, but most of its' 34,000 residents/citizens are French and/or Italian descent. Andorra is another principality not in France, but most people are of French, Catalan or Spanish descent. So far, my new edits haven't been full or they remain red links likely to get taken down. + Mike D 26 03:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  French people in the world 

message: The section on French Jews, identity and anti-Semitism was very good written, but unfortunately, the article couldn't make a point. Redundant article you call it...here's the problem. There was sloppy work and POV here and there, as well citations needed to verify the status of French Jews and assimilation into their nation's social fabric throughout French history. I would find the article and redo it within wikipedia standards, so it's more relevant to explain a subsection of the French people identified as "Jewish". There's a whole separate article on French-Jewish history, a proper place for it and already the subject is covered. I agree out of historical fact the French Republic has fought anti-Semitism, but the phenomenon does exist in the present without doubt. Most French people are against anti-Semitism as the article rules out, but any edits can't make assumptions like that on wikipedia. The article lacked a fully detailed analysis on why the post-revolution (19th c.) government took down ancient legal and social barriers against Jews in France, and encouraged a pattern of assimilation to a degree the French Jews truly are French first, Jewish second. Before I restore the article, let's have a vote in here: Agree? Oppose? or postpone. How can an intellegent article may work like a machine does show loose nuts or bolts? Let's have a vote, shall we? +Mike D 26 07:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No...you're retooling and reediting to describe accuracy and relevance. French Jews are well of and socially equal, but anti-Semitism in France is a minor problem appeared in waves throughout the last 40 years. Vandalism of cemeteries, synagogue arson and protests by various far-right, far-left and Radical Islamic groups targeted French Jews. To deny France has a small, but vicious cycle of anti-Semitism is the same for one to deny America has racism against African-Americans (which does exist, but unlike in the past) or to deny Australia has strong opposition to non-European immigration (obviously, every developed country has an immigration issue). North Africans and Muslims are a bigger issue, but any minority by race, ethnic, religious and social, will encounter types of discrimination and prejudice, in France and elsewhere. Riots and civil disturbances in France by North African immigrants and French Muslim citizens are on the increase on the first anniversary of the (Nov. 2005) riots that spread across the country. France is afraid they succumbed to criminal youths, increased urban blight of their housing projects and the difficult assimilation pattern of much of over 5 million French Muslims. To compare the struggle of French Jews, French Muslims and French protestants have great similarities (and differences) on their experience of integration. France now braces themselves for more civil unrest by decades of neglect and discrimination (illegal and unpopular to most French) at the first place. + Mike D 26 03:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think a country proud of their freedom and tolerance like France is gonna like you adding it. I understand the significance of age-old hatreds by a few people who hold them, because no society is perfect. But the French aren't too worried...and some aren't comfortable to address the topics on race, religion and cultural diversity. France has endorsed everyone no matter who they are or where they from to be accepted in the spectrum of "French people". Now to demonstrate not only the French or Americans, but the world was shocked to find Mel Gibson and Michael Richards, both of the entertainment industry, managed to get away after shouting racist epithets or anti-Semitic comments loud for the media to record them at the act. Probably a few of us in France may feel or want to create a paragraph on Americans are racist, anti-Semite or nativist (the recent comments by US representative Tom Tancredo bashed urban areas are "third world" by large-scale immigration). It would be too disparaging to view America, the way you made France look like, a country of bigots and xenophobes. I suggest you leave the French people article alone. 63.3.14.1 15:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed (redundant?) paragraph in article 

message: <<<- :Main Articles: History of the Jews in France, 
- One of France's difficult issues (less present since world war II) involve both religion and ancestry of assimilated French Jews. A large percentage of French Jews, either by religious practice or those identified as Jewish by parental ancestry, identify themselves French and usually find their "Jewishness" a minor title. Anti-semitism is a marginal issue not as fierce like racism and nativism in the late 20 c, but nevertheless it came in waves in acts of discrimination, and vandalism of synagogues and cemeteries. Some French Jews claimed to encounter various forms of anti-Semitism from those who exposed their prejudice. The French government did as much they can to combat anti-Semitism. Some anti-Semitic commentary goes back thousands of years, other myths came from fascist ideologies gained ground in the early 20th c. Many French don't like to suggest famous "French people" of Jewish origin as "Jewish" too much: Leon Blum, Henri Matisse, Marc Chagall, Pierre Mendes-France, Sarah Bernhardt, Albert Schweitzer and Emile Zola, either by parentage or are in Judaism. The scourge of anti-Semitism is considered a social taboo in present-day France, due to content of what bigotry can do to people considered "French" first or foremost, and under government policy, social inclusion and diversity are deeply held moral values. The threat of anti-Semitism is weak, but remain evident by far-right nationalists, some far-left anti-zionists, and Islamic fundamentalist groups known to hold anti-Semitic or anti-Israel viewpoints. Their opinions and protests had  offended and defamed French Jews, a bigger counter-opinion would appear to show French society won't allow it. In fact, holocaust denial is a crime and to publically discuss ethnic origins (such as French Jews) can lead to legal ramifications. Alike any Western European democracy, anti-Semitism is limited to a small fringe that most French abhor and disagree with.>>>
Wikipedia may want to examine the article before it's restored. The admins don't want to make France look bad, and definitely true to intentionally stir racial and religious hatred is illegal under French law. But it don't explain the difficult task to arrest and charge suspects involved in hate crimes against Jewish centers, cemeteries and properties (some simply got away in the middle of night). Btw, my father is from France, and told me these things on his country isn't racist, but some of his countrymen like Jean-Marie Le Pen's controversial statements are stuck on old prejudices.+ Mike D 26 14:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think a country proud of their freedom and tolerance like France is gonna like you adding it. I understand the significance of age-old hatreds by a few people who hold them, because no society is perfect. But the French aren't too worried...and some aren't comfortable to address the topics on race, religion and cultural diversity. France has endorsed everyone no matter who they are or where they from to be accepted in the spectrum of "French people". Now to demonstrate not only the French or Americans, but the world was shocked to find Mel Gibson and Michael Richards, both of the entertainment industry, managed to get away after shouting racist epithets or anti-Semitic comments loud for the media to record them at the act. Probably a few of us in France may feel or want to create a paragraph on Americans are racist, anti-Semite or nativist (the recent comments by US representative Tom Tancredo bashed urban areas are "third world" by large-scale immigration). It would be too disparaging to view America, the way you made France look like, a country of bigots and xenophobes. I suggest you leave the French people article alone. 63.3.14.1 15:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  French identity and anti-Semitism 

message: Talk:French People is in need of proper organization. Make a new archive and put away the paragraph in it's own archive. I find it gotten too long and takes 15-30 seconds to download. Let's make space and reorganize the talk page every 6 months (starting now). sorry I can't create an archive, because I'm using an anon IP address. 63.3.14.1 17:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New archive request 

message: The article, with a brief and internally rebutted argument towards the majority view notwithstanding, is a decidedly minority-view, political statement which neither addresses the historic French people or the attributes and ethnic heritage of the vast majority of the people of France.  The article is intended to be about "French people," not "French citizens."  A brief summary of the definition of the notion of an ethnic people may be found at Wikipedia's article ethnic group.  The NPOV tag should not be removed until the entire tone of the article conforms to the majority and traditionally adhered-to view rather than the minority-view political statement if the legitimacy of Wikipedia as a tool for learning and scholarship is valued at all.
67.101.243.74 18:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Define "majority" and "minority".  Looking at the talk page here it is clear that the "majority" view in the English speaking world of what the French ethnic group consists of clashes directly with the "majority" view of the French themselves.  It's not our job to declare one right and one wrong, just document their opinions.  Kevlar67 19:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text: That was also the case with Italy, regionalism was stronger than "Italianism". However you can't say that Italians did not become an ethnic group, especially those who migrated to the US and Australia. It's true that in the early-mid 20-th century, in many rural regions people spoke only Patois and had to actually learn french as a foreign language, and I'm not talking about Britanny but about central France. This is something common by european standards, it's got nothing to do with assimilation or multi-ethnicity (except when it happens in the Balkans). On the other hand the French communities in Algeria remained isolated for over two generations, kept their language and customs and did not mix with the locals. So you can't really say that the French identity does not cling to an ethnicity, unless you apply this to all Western Europe first. Miskin 18:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV tagging