Talk:Alcohol in the Bible

message: See section Septuagint equivalent(s) for yayin.
A person who is an "oinopotes" in Prov 23:20 (Septuagint) is associated with the Hebrew term "sawbaw." Thus "Oinopotes" is a person, so is not really equivalent to a thing: "yayin". Likewise for sumposion, katoinousthai. I suggest the wording could be made clearer.
Officelamp (talk) 12:08, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Septuatint equivalent(s) for yayin previously stated: gleukos[14] (see below), katoinousthai ("to be drunken"),[15] oinopotes ("drunkard"),[16] oinos (see below), sumposion ("drinking party")[17][18] Officelamp (talk) 12:14, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Now oinopotes is on a new row. Officelamp (talk) 13:56, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Septuagint equivalent(s)

message: Alcohol in the BibleSCORES IN KEY AREAS	Alcohol in the BibleSCORES IN KEY AREAS	Alcohol in the BibleSCORES IN KEY AREAS	Alcohol in the BibleSCORES IN KEY AREAS	Alcohol in the BibleSCORES IN KEY AREAS	Alcohol in the BibleSCORES IN KEY AREAS
Legality                               	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	
Neutrality                             	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	
Writing                                	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	
Sources                                	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	
Citations                              	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	A                                      	
                                       	                                       	                                       	                                       	                                       	
Overall the article is excellent.  There are plenty of citations and sources.  All the pictures are A-OK.  Neutrality is not even a problem when all they are doing is making references to the Bible and other Christian related material concerning a subject that does not have a mass countermovement against it.  As for the writing, it is interesting.  The subject is "Alcohol in the Bible" so the reasonableness of the sources used is a no-brainer.  With 138 citations and the other things I just mentioned, I find it highly likely that someones agrees and is therefore willing to pass it.◙◙◙  I M Kmarinas86  U O 2¢  ◙◙◙ 03:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Kmarinas86. Are you waiting for someone else to give a second opinion? (If so, may I humbly propose that you note that on the candidates page.) --Flex (talk/contribs) 12:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That person is me.  No doubt about it, this one's ready for GA.◙◙◙  I M Kmarinas86  U O 2¢  ◙◙◙ 00:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! Many thanks! --Flex (talk/contribs) 01:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Evaluation for GA

message: I need some suggestions on how to improve the references on this article. In the recent peer review of this article, User:Konstable (now retired) suggested I divide the references into notes and references along the lines of Islam or Demosthenes, both featured articles. Konstable's main reason for this suggestion is that some of the citations have quite a few different sources (e.g., "... abused,[8][9][10][11][12]" from the lead), so he said I should combine them into a single footnote for each cited item with multiple sources within each note.
I attempted to do this in my "private" version of this article, but I ran into some issues. First, I don't want to introduce manual footnoting unless I absolutely have to (compare the manual "letter" footnotes in Demosthenes) since they're a maintenance hassle. Second, I want to be able to use the xyz ...  style notes since I have several sources that I cite a number of times (e.g., "Wine" from Easton's Bible Dictionary). Looking at my "private" version, where should I go from here? --Flex (talk/contribs) 01:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RfC: Format for references

message: Your article is more modern thinking than the ideas of the days you write about. As a teacher of the torah and bible for 30 years, I often review other's ideas on what is written. I learn something new everyday. What I've discovered over the past thirty years is that most people write based on the concepts they learned from their basic church's doctrines. If you really want to write a correct article about alcohol in the bible, you need to leave the Christian writings completely and delve into the midrash (legend) books. For instance, one word that is often used describing Jesus is Nitzer. This was translated that he was from Nazerene. The word is greek for Nazerite. When you use this concept of Jesus being a Nazerite and understand the actual laws surrounding a Nazerite, then re-read the New Testament, a whole new story comes out of it. Jesus is only accused of drinking alcohol but no one actually sees him drinking it. As for alcohol, the Midrash (legends) is that the process was taught to man by the fallen angels (referred to as the Sons of G-d in the Book of Genesis) to mankind (decendants of Cain) before the flood. If you look deep into the Torah, you will discover that wine and strong drink was actually sent into the tabernacle for the LORD to enjoy. How deep are you willing to go into the actual words of the Torah bible? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glitteringsword (talk • contribs) 
:I believe that the article as written reflects the broad consensus of scholars and theologians and is sourced appropriately from Christian, Jewish, and other reliable sources. Certainly I am open to investigating specific claims to the contrary on any point, major or minor, however. If you can help supply additional Jewish perspective (appropriately sourced, of course), it would be appreciated (n.b., this article is on alcohol in the Bible proper, not the Midrash, though certainly it and the Talmud could provide some valuable input on the matter; the Mishnah is already referenced in this regard, as are non-canonical works such as the Psalms of Solomon and Jubilees). --Flex (talk/contribs) 00:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish view

message: Some people are so in love with alcoholic and intoxicating beverages that they refuse to see that it's a sin in any way. There are many who justify the consumption of alcoholic beverages by falsely saying that Jesus drank it. They point to Jesus turning water into wine at Cana, the good Samaritan using wine in the parable, the Pharisee's accusation towards Jesus, and the Last Supper. 
The word "wine" in olden times was used indiscriminately to mean either fresh grape juice or fermented (alcoholic) grape juice. The context in which the word is used tells the reader which meaning is appropriate. If it speaks bad about it, it is referring to alcoholic wine. If it speaks good about it, it is referring to unfermented grape juice. Don't believe me? Look in any English dictionary over 200 years old and you'll see the word wine meant any grape juice.
In the Old Testament there are 3 Hebrew words that are all translated as “wine”. Yayin which is intoxicating, fermented wine, tirosh which is fresh grape juice, and shakar which is an intoxicating, intensely alcoholic, strong drink (often referring to other intoxicants than wine). The Greek words in the New Testament that are translated as "wine" are oinos and gleukos which can refer to either unfermented grape juice or alcoholic wine.
Many have said grape juice was fermented to preserve it. There were many methods back then besides fermentation to preserve grape juice and even when it was fermented the alcohol content was MUCH less than the wines of today. 67.42.243.40 16:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your views do accurately represent prohibitionism, but they do not represent the accepted knowledge of the vast majority of students of the Bible. As such, your view is covered briefly in this article, but the majority of the text represents the much more broadly held view. Moreover, you must be more civil and assume good faith rather than assuming others are merely oenophilic bigots. Yes, we all have biases, but we also strive to keep them in check (as must you). --Flex (talk/contribs) 16:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

text: "If it speaks bad about it, it is referring to alcoholic wine. If it speaks good about it, it is referring to unfermented grape juice." - Wow, how convenient for your own point of view! How can you possibly take yourself seriously? This barely qualifies as an argument. Do you seriously wonder why this view of yours is so unpopular?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.164.132.33 (talk) 20:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As someone who is quite interested in the history of wine (the beverage also known as fermented grape juice) could you please tell me which methods available in antiquity would allow grape juice to be kept fresh for any length of time, especially in the sun-drenched Middle East? My understanding is that without access to sterile filtration, sulfites and refrigeration, it would be easier to keep whole grapes ("table grapes") fresh than grape juice. (So if you wanted unfermented grape juice, you had better crush the grapes just before the meal.) The reason why fermentation starts immediately after grapes are crushed is that wild yeasts able to ferment the glucose and fructose of grape juice populate the waxy skin of grapes. Break the grapes, and the outside yeasts and the inside juice/sugar come into contact! The addition of industrial yeast in winemaking is a rather recent phenomenon, and many winemakers still prefer to use the naturally occuring yeasts. Tomas e (talk) 20:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is often suggested by prohibitionists that grape juice was boiled down to a syrupy, jam-like concentrate that did not ferment, was storable, and could be remixed with water like we do with concentrate drinks today (see e.g., ). BTW, this is not a discussion forum. --Flex (talk/contribs) 20:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree about the discussion part, but sometimes it's difficult to resist clarifying a few facts when content of an article is protested on its discussion page. Grape juice has to be very concentrated not to ferment at all (such as the very rare Eszencia from Tokaj-Hegyalja which is exceptionally difficult to produce). Many ancient wines were made from sun-dried grapes and diluted before drinking, no doubt about it, but they fermented to a high enough alcohol level to be characterised as "fiery" before being diluted. Modern-day simple sweet sherry is made by fermenting Pedro Ximénez must that has been artifically concentrated, and they are also alcoholic. So while a mixture such as the one you describe will be weaker, it is not likely to be nonalcoholic. Tomas e (talk) 22:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus Never Drank Alcohol 

message: There are a couple of footnotes referencing a work by Fitzsimmonds, but a full citation isn't provided anywhere. --macrakis (talk) 16:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out. It must have been accidentally deleted, but I restored it now. --Flex (talk/contribs) 14:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Currently the article has a Fitzsimmonds reference for tirosh. Is this place ideal? Which word does Fitzsimmonds think is "particularly potent"? Tirosh in Micah 6:15 cannot be "potent" at all. Is his comment about "new wine" saying more about his view of the Greek word gleukos in Acts 2:13 and less about the Hebrew word tirosh in the Old Testament ("grapes" Micah 6:15 ESV)? Does he make a consistent distinction between various Hebrew and Greek words? (After mentioning Acts 2:13 again, Fitzsimmonds says gleukos "means literally ‘sweet wine’; the vintage of the current year had not yet come, but there were means of keeping wine sweet all year round." Fitzsimmonds does note what others often say of tirosh: "tiros, sometimes translated 'new' or 'sweet wine', has often been regarded as unfermented and therefore unintoxicating wine...") Officelamp (talk) 13:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Fitzsimmonds references

message: There is no word "Alcohol" in the Bible. Article should be called "Wine in the Bible". --Вишера Олег (talk) 08:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that the word "alcohol" does not appear in the Bible, but the article talks about more than just wine. Alcoholic beverages are summarized in the Bible itself as "wine and strong drink", and that is how some reference works list it (see footnotes). Others do, however, put it under "Alcohol" (e.g., The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology), and consider also the books by teetotaler Stephen Reynolds The Biblical Approach to Alcohol and Alcohol and the Bible. Surely, therefore, the current title is acceptable, and for that matter, Wine in the Bible already redirects here. --Flex (talk/contribs) 18:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wine in the Bible 

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