Talk:Takeda Shingen

message: I am going to remove the pederasty category soon, unless somebody provides a convincing reason to keep it. -- Cimon avaro; on a pogostick. 12:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the article, here. Why do you want to suppress this information?! Haiduc 12:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hardly suppression when the Japanese culture, like many others historically, have been casually pederastic. You might as well add that he was a heterosexual lover as well.Mephistopheles 15:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll second that. Going out of your way to include it implies a modern moral sense, which shouldn't apply. Just as we do not bother describing him as heterosexual, or as not wearing trousers, there's no need to bother discussing this subject here - particularly since Shingen is not famous for being more sexual promiscuous than anyone else, or anything of the sort. LordAmeth 20:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "modern moral sense," or the promiscuity topos, has nothing to do with the category or the individuals so categorized. I have no idea where you came up with that. We have historical information on Shingen's relationships, they have been documented in historical studies, they occupy an entire paragraph in the article, and thus he is of interest to anyone who is studying pederasty in history and needs to be included in the category. That a man is heterosexual is taken for granted unless otherwise indicated. Please do not let your personal negativity towards pederasty influence this article. Haiduc 23:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's out of left field at all. This is little different from making a category of child molesters throughout history, or wife beaters or something - there's no reason to single Shingen out as a particular special example, just like I don't believe that every single ukiyo-e artist needs to go in the shunga category - it's more or less assumed that people at this time, in Japan, would be engaged in such relationships. No need to single him out among the hundreds of other daimyo by putting him in the category. (Ultimately, I really don't care what you do; you're welcome to keep the categories as they are. I just want to make sure you understand my meaning.) LordAmeth 00:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope I am not missing something here. The negativity that you are implying simply does not exist. Here is a case of a young man making a love pact with a still younger man, a youth, actually. There is no imputation of evil, molestation, abuse or whatever. It is simply a relationship, which in those days was seen as honorable. The fact that you and I are privileged enough to be aware of the ubiquity of pederasty among upper class Japanese of those days does not absolve us from making that information accessible to others less endowed. Haiduc 01:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Takedas sexual relationships are of historical interest, and shouldnt be censored. You are asking why things should be left in, whereas I believe the onus is to justify why something should be removed. Ottawakismet (talk) 17:08, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Pederastic Lovers category. 

message: Takeda Shingen was born Takeda Katsuchiyo.
It is widely believed as such, but is not correct. His actual childhood name was , and, according to ja:武田信玄,  was that of a nephew of him, .
Katsuchiyo was a relatively common childhood name for Takeda family at that time, so there's still possibility of that he was really called Katsuchiyo. However, most of recent researchers think those descriptions about Katsuchiyo came from  (a textbook on strategy/tactics written in 17C), which was based on some incorrect sources. --219.113.68.124 03:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name in his childhood 

message: In the paragraph concerning Shingen's washudo relationship and pledge it gives the following citation:  (Leupp, pp.53-54)
but there is no Leupp listed in the Reference section. Could the person who added the citation please include the reference as well. Thanks. Axamoto 14:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unknown Reference 

message: In the section, "Takeda Shingen in fiction and drama," appears the following sentence: "Akira Kurosawa's 1980 film Kagemusha was also inspired by his life; it brought the musket-wound theory to public attention outside Japan."
The article makes no other mention of this musket-wound theory.  It should either be elaborated upon (in a different section,) or removed.  I'm not familiar with this theory beyond what was shown in the film.
Phlake (talk) 03:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure it's a theory so much as a premise. Does anyone have an academic or scholarly reference for it? Fg2 (talk) 04:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sansom doesn't seem to discuss Shingen's death directly, and unfortunately that's the only set of books I brought to Japan with me. But I am pretty sure that Turnbull talks about him dying from complications/infection of a musket wound received at the 1573 siege of Noda. Whether or not you want to take Turnbull as a fully reliable source is another question, I suppose, however. LordAmeth (talk) 06:57, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have the books I cited in the article close at hand, but I don't recall them mentioning a wound, just illness. They're both dictionaries of history, with very brief entries. The Japanese Wikipedia article elaborates on it, saying he had been coughing up blood. In a separate section of the article, they mention the musket theory (説) and speculate that it might have been devised by the Tokugawa to take credit for killing Shingen. And there are more theories as well... . Fg2 (talk) 07:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. Well, that sounds quite feasible too. After all, the whole story about him being distracted by the sound of a flute player in the enemy fortress and therefore being shot, while certainly not an impossibility, sounds a bit too much like a romanticized story... LordAmeth (talk) 13:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Musket wound theory? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Takeda Shingen. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121115012204/http://www.sengokubasara.tv/basara1/index2.html to http://www.sengokubasara.tv/basara1/index2.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:10, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It is all well and good to mention lovers of both sexes, but the article does not mention his wife or wives, nor concubines. 
While we're at it, the text points to his father but not his mother (who could have an article all to herself, too). Strange how this article seems to mention little about the women in Shingen's life. I'm not particularly feminist, but methinks the article does not reflect values in this decade. :o)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fradiga1 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  /* A question: who was/were the mother(s) of all his children? */  

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:52, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion