Talk:Catholic Church (disambiguation)

message: This page is proposed as a disambiguation link for the Roman Catholic Church article as a compromise to an ongoing debate.  It is a copy of the 1 April 2006 version of Catholic Church  --WikiCats 12:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed compromise

message: Does this page serve any purpose that the current page at Catholic would not serve equally well or better? TSP 17:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page 

message: This is a disambiguation page not an article. It is not suitable for a merge into an article. It was created as a compromise to an ongoing debate. I feel that to merge this page would start the whole debate again. --WikiCats 04:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the result of the 'debate' was that two of the labels were unilaterally removed within minutes of being added, so the debate was never really announced.  If anyone wants to label and have this debate properly, they shouldn't feel constrained by this. TSP 12:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge?

message: This page is a complete farse.  Seriously, it is useless.  There is nobody out there searching on Catholic Church who is looking for anything but the Church with a pope.  Can we just get rid of this damn thing?  Vaquero100 13:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still believe there are ambiguity issues with "Catholic Church". Wikipedia recognizes that the most common usage of the phrase "Catholic Church" is refering to the church in question by having Catholic Church redirect to Roman Catholic Church. The only way someone is going to find this page is if they type in "Catholic Church" and they end up at RCC when they ment another page and they click on the disambig page link at the top of RCC. That is totally inline with policy. If only a very small number of people need this page, so be it, but I still feel it is needed. However, there is always WP:AfD. Take it before the people if you want.--Andrew c 18:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You can go through the deletion process, if you would like to propose a deletion. I believe you misunderstand what disambiguation pages are used for. Please see MOS:DAB. Disambiguation pages are solely intended to allow users to choose among several Wikipedia articles, usually when a user searches for an ambiguous term. Look at the "school" example. They link to swarm due to the common use of "school of fish", even though the word "school" is not found in the title of the "swarm" article. Similarly, the purpose of this page is to allow users who searched for the term "catholic church" but didn't meant he Roman Catholic Church to find the article they intended to find. Could you perhaps be a bit more specific about your issues? You are welcome to discussed proposed changes here. Thanks.-Andrew c [talk] 14:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Farse

message: *Official Public Record View Image
*The Catholic Church is a Sole Proprietorship founded by Garry Denke, in the County of Collin, the State of Texas, a taxpayer. The Catholic Church owner's nickname is G-D, gar-den. Garry Denke 05:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Catholic Church

message: People tend to consider Catholic and Christian as two diffrent things. For Example people say I'm Christian not Catholic, are you Catholic or Christian, etc. It needs to be specifcally addressed this issue amongst people. Catholics are Christians and people such as Pentecostals or Evagelical Christians tend to do this as well. Please someone needs to write a article specifcally addressing this issue.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.70.64.206 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 12 August 2006.
:Be bold.--WikiCats 02:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK.--Garry Denke 05:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please Read, Important

message: There don't seem to be any other disambiguation pages that are as long as this one.  I propose that we remove all of the content from the Content box down to, but not including the "See also" section. -SynKobiety 13:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I know this page was created out of a compromise, and we probably shouldn't stir up trouble here while the big RCC vs CC debate is going on on the main page, I did say months ago that this page "seems too wordy for a disambiguation page." I proposed merging this page with Catholic, and we could just change the note at the top of the RCC page to point to Catholic instead of here. And I feel that something should happen to Catholicism as well, just because it seems like there is a lot of redundent content going across 3 different articles. --Andrew c 20:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguation Page format

message: This article referred to the Roman Catholic Church as the largest denomination of Christians. Catholicism doesn't refer to itself as a denomination, so the word group would be more appropriate here.
:Wikipedia is not a Catholic document, and wikipedia's audience is not exclusively Catholic. I believe strongly that we should be able to use common definitions of words, and that we should be internally consistent. The Christian denomination article says that Catholicism is a denominatioon, but it also uses the term "division" I feel the word group is not that precise. When I think of Christian groups, I think of Christian organizations at universities, or Christian think tanks, I don't think of denominations. In summary, I support the previous wording and oppose the current wording, but would be open to some sort of compromise such as "division". What do you and others think?--Andrew c 17:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The term, denomination

message: I eliminated the "23 churches" from the definition because (IMHO) it confuses more than clarifies. Hope you loke the way it read now. Morlesg 05:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  23 churches 

message: Why is church capitalized? This seems to go against the MoS: However, the words for types of institutions (university, college, hospital, high school, etc.) do not require capitalization if they do not appear in a proper name. Church appears to fall under this category. My Unabridged Random House dictionary says that church (in that usage) is sometimes capitalized, but not always. My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary specifically does not capitalize 'church' in this manner. As for linking in headings, MoS says: Avoid links within headings. Depending on settings, some users may not see them clearly. It is much better to put the appropriate link in the first sentence under the heading.--Andrew c 23:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why outlaw the use of capitalized "Church", even if only a minority of writers now use this means of making it clear that what is spoken of is not a building?  However, in view of the agreement of Andrew and Morlesg on this matter, I will not insist on it here. Only after they have settled their disagreements on other matters, will I examine this article again with regard to points other than capitalizing "Church". I see that the matter of avoiding links in headings has been remedied. Lima 07:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For what its worth, I have always understood that "the church" refers to a specific building or campus and "the Church" refers to an institution or a communion. The latter is a show of respect for a group's faith in the style of capitalizing "Christianity" or "Islam." I have not studied the latest recommendations of Webster's, Oxford, or other authorities but I would tend to argue that the traditional rules are reasonable ones in the absense of a particular reason to change.--Mcorazao 17:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Church capitalization 

message: I changed the title
:Particular Churches that form the Catholic Church in communion with the Pope
to
:Particular Churches that form the Roman Catholic Church in communion with the Pope
Given the specific reason for this disambiguation page it is biased to refer to the Roman Catholic Church as the "Catholic Church" in this header but not do the same for the other sections. In other words the specific point of this page was to respect the fact that there are different sentiments among the faithful about the meaning of this term so then using this to refer to one of the Churches is hypocritical. I realize that the "in communion with the Pope" clause was intended to clarify the point but this is more of a subtle slap in the face. I also realize that many who are "in communion with the Pope" object to the term "Roman Catholic Church." Without getting into that debate I will simply point out that the main article on this Church is entitled "Roman Catholic Church" so this article should follow that article's lead.
--Mcorazao 17:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title for Roman Catholic section 

message: This address seems to have been hijacked.  The same happened earlier to the Internet address of the Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney, which returned to its proper owners only after several months.  Should we, while waiting for the problem to be fixed, restore the link in the article to The Longer Catechism of the Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church, which, as the latest editor say, does not, at present, lead to content?  Or can somebody add another citation as verification of the statement that the Eastern Orthodox Church identifies as Catholic?  Lima 04:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  www.tserkovnost.org/ 

message: Part of the reason for the current mild edit war is, I think, that this page isn't sure what it is.
Is it a disambiguation page?  If so, according to Wikipedia:Disambiguation there should be only one link for each entry, to the article referred to (so the line under dispute should not link to Catholic Church, as that's a redirect - but it shouldn't link to See of Rome or Pope either) and the whole thing should be vastly shortened to something like what Gareth Hughes proposes above.
Or is it an article, on the different uses of the term 'Catholic'?  If this is the case, it's probably redundant with regard to Catholic, Catholicism, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, &c., and should redirect to one of them.
While it's hovered somewhere between the two, there are always going to be disputes between those who want to push it one way or the other.  Myself I don't really care between the two; but at the moment it's far too wordy to be a disambiguation page, and doesn't do the job an article explaining the term as well as Catholic does; so I think it needs to go one way or the other. TSP 20:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The IP editor who was edit warring does bring up a valid concern raised here as well. Is having such a long disambig page with lists of particular churches of numerous Christian denominations helpful? I think, if we are to list the particular churches of the RCC, and if we are going to say in the lead that multiple other churches identify as "catholic", then we need to keep the other lists as well (which the IP had been deleting). But I could see a case where we delete everything after the ToC. Would the IP editor agree to also removing the list of RCC particular churches?  What do others think? -Andrew c [talk] 20:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't necessarily mind trimming down the article and removing the long lists. However, the latest version isn't exactly all inclusive, in that a number of uses of the term "Catholic Church" are ignored, that were previously discussed in the lead of the longstanding version. For example, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is no longer referenced. Perhaps I'll give a crack and trying to restore some of the other meanings of the term.-Andrew c [talk] 21:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It's looking good. -- SECisek 20:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kind of strange seeing it so short now, but hey, maybe it won't be vandalized as much now Bill Ward 20:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purpose of this page 

message: Why "Eastern Orthodox Church" left singularly and "Oriental Orthodox Church" pluralized? This doesn't make much sense. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In the first case, the local Churches consider that they all form a single Church; so that makes sense.  Do the local Churches of Oriental Orthodoxy, which unlike the Eastern Orthodox have quite distinct liturgies etc., consider that they form a single Church?  (I don't know, one way or the other.)  Lima (talk) 07:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ??? 

message: Please see WP:DPAGES. The purpose of disambiguation pages is to help direct readers to articles that share the same or similar names. This page was created because some people believe that if we use the phrase "Catholic Church" someone may possible think we are talking about some other religious body that isn't the RCC headed by the pope. This is backed up by various claims that some churches believe to be "catholic" or maybe even share or claim to share various early origins or apostolic succession. Regardless, the general idea is that someone typing "Catholic Church" in the search box may possibly be actually looking for one of these churches. That said, how many people who type "Catholic Church" in the search box are actually looking for the Criticism article? Keep in mind, when you type in "Catholic Church", you are taken to the main RCC page, which already has a link to the criticism page; just like they have links to the Roman Catholic theology page and the Sacraments of the Catholic Church page and the Catholic Church hierarchy and the History of the Roman Catholic Church page. I see no difference between adding a link to the criticism page than adding a link to any of these other spin off pages. I do not believe anyone who is having disambiguation issues with the phrase "Catholic Church" is actually trying to find the history page, or the theology page, or even the criticism page, and would argue that none of those links should be included here. So I'm curious why Kurtilein believes the link is needed for disambiguation purposes, while any number of other spin off article links are not? As for deleting the see also section completely, I'm not sure that is a good idea. A number of those articles discuss this disambiguation issues with the word "Catholic", and I do believe that they are appropriate for this page, and I hope we can restore some of them at least. -Andrew c [talk] 16:58, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just think that the "See also" items were not about disambiguating "Catholic Church".  They were rather about disambiguating "Catholicism".  Besides, do other disambiguation pages have "See also" sections?  I am confident that there are editors who can find the answer to that question much more quickly than I can.  I don't know of any, and that was my initial reason for thinking that such a section was out of place.  Lima (talk) 18:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism link 

message: I think the current version "The Western and 22 Eastern Catholic Churches in Communion with the Pope" is probably the best, however- I think I should as a subsection in case anyone else wants to join in. --Rockstone (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I can understand wanting to align the link to the article title, but for the sake of disambiguation, we needed a more substantial definition (we basically were saying "The Acme Company is the company who is lead by the CEO of the Acme Company" when the point is trying to define what Acme Company we are talking about). The long standing solution to that issue was to introduce the term "Roman Catholic Church", which has been problematic to some over the years. My changes referenced the 23 particular churches that make but the communion with the pope. Hopefully this is a bit clearer, but I'm not sure if it is too technical, introduced jargon, or may seem confusing to the masses who know little to nothing about eastern catholicism. Anyway, it was worth a shot, and hopefully it works. If not, I'm sure we can discuss other options, or someone else can attempt a bold redefinition. Thanks!-Andrew c [talk] 00:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, it is kinda jarring. I like your Change alot. I would have said "The Latin and 22 Eastern Rites in Communion with the Pope and the Holy See", but that is a bit too technical. --Rockstone (talk) 02:02, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

text: No, it doesn't. "Latin Rite" is the term that refers only to the Western part of the church. "Roman Catholic Church" is the name for the entire church in communion with the Bishop of Rome. +Angr 09:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are quite correct.  The name "Roman Catholic Church" has historically been applied to the whole church in communion with the Pope.  The more recent practice by some people ( especially Eastern Rite Catholics ) to only apply it to the Latin Rite is incorrect - understandable perhaps but still strictly incorrect. Afterwriting (talk) 10:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic v. Roman Catholic 

message: I made this edit in an attempt to help make this disambiguation easier to understand as there has been a debate in some other articles as to how "Catholic Church" should redirect. In truth, there are many churches that claim to be the "Catholic" church, from the Roman Catholic Church to the Orthodox Catholic Church. Now, the reasoning behind me changing it to "Orthodox Catholic Church" is because that church claims to be the "Catholic" church. There are others there listed that could be put as that, but for now I am going to wait on that and see how this goes. You see, it should not be that we call the "Orthodox" only the "Orthodox Church" when they claim to be the "Orthodox Catholic Church", just as it we should not call the "Roman Catholic Church" only the "Roman Church" or the "Latin Church" or the "Western Church" or any other names. 
In this edit I have made I have attempted to make it so there is a NPOV as to regards to the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church as the term "Catholic" is a well-sought after word in a title. I hope soon I can do it for the other churches claiming to be "Catholic" as well. 
If you find this edit is unfounded, please discuss it here. I did not know there was so much discussion here on this disambiguation page, I thought it would not have any!
seems i'm not currently logged in, but I am Gunnar123abc  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.114.111 (talk) 18:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming of the link directing [[Eastern Orthodox Church]] that is supplied here as [[Orthodox Church]] to [[Orthodox Catholic Church]] 

message: There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention that may be of interest. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk  23:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic Church naming conventions RfC