Talk:Jesus and the woman taken in adultery

message: I am I the only person who finds it pretentious to insist on using a ligitature here, instead of the far simpler (& accurate) use of separate letters --  Pericope Adulterae? -- llywrch 03:04, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you're not. -Silence 19:22, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ligature

message: If 'pericope' is Greek, then 'pericope adulterae' should not be described as 'anglicised Latin', eh?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Publius3 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of words were borrowed from Greek into Latin, and "Adultera" is a native Latin word... AnonMoos (talk) 12:17, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: isn't 'pericope' Greek -- not Latin?

message: Cut from article:
:It has also been used to defend the existence of prostitution, and from mediæval times to the Victorian era, prostitutes would often be found most frequently in regions around Bishop's palaces, known as liberties. 
No source, and in 30 years as a Christian this is the first I've ever heard of this. Maybe I'm just not well-read? :-)
::Yes, you need to read more critical history. The Church had brodels and slaves up until the Reformation.--Againme (talk) 15:35, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sources? Brothels and slaves? Which "church"? Misty MH (talk) 20:25, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

text: Good point! LOL. Misty MH (talk) 20:25, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, except that what prostitutes did was not seen as adultery, but as a service to the public. The Catholic Church sided with Aristotle, who stated that men have to discharge their sperm in order to be healthy. tgeorgescu (talk)  12:22, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Justification for prostitution

message: There are no references for this diagram.  Where has it been published; or is it original research?  TomHennell 12:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Embedded structures 

message: I have edited this section to remove references to the passage being "removed" from witnesses.  While there are a number of manuscripts that lack the passage, and have had it subsequently added by a corrector, I know of none that had the passage, but where it was subsequently deleted.
I have also rephrased the final para of the section.  There is no text critical dispute that I am aware over the origin of this story, and little over its age.  It is agreed on all side that this is a primitive narrative tradition, almost certainly transmitting a historical episode in the life and teaching of Jesus.  The question is rather whether it was bound into John's Gospel from the beginning, or whether it was only incorporated into the Gospel text at a later date.  TomHennell 01:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:   History of textual criticism 

message: I am ignoring Tom Hennell's attempt to classify a simple table of quotations as "original research".
This is an absurd application of the rules concerning original research. The chart was merely an easy to read table of OT quotations from the Gospel of John, showing their position relative to the Pericope de Adultera.  
To call this "original research" is absurd.  Any child could tabulate the published footnoted OT quotations in any copy of the NT.  If you delete every unordered list or disallow every organized presentation of facts, the wikipedia would lose 10% of its content.
Stop being anal about something so trivially simple.
----------------------------
I have removed Tom Hennell's undocumented opinions from the article.  Citations were lacking, and as it stands, his edits have the shape of an attempt to form his own opinion rather than cite accepted and recognized authorities on the subject.
If you're going to insist on this level of strictness for edits, you can expect the same for your own.
--Nazaroo 02:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Tom, you're right that I didn't carefully distinguish between "genuine" and "original to John." I count on smart people to catch me when I overreach, so thanks. Next, I'd like to find a way to point out that the proponents of "original to John" are the scholarly equivalent of creationists. Leadwind (talk) 00:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am not sure whether Maurice Robinson is a "creationist", possibly he is; but his position on this pericope is contrary to the common consensus, and (though I do not agree with him) not without substance.  In particular, the arguments against the pericope now appears rather less watertight than was thought in the early years of the 20th century.  Firstly, Robinson has convincingly argued that the obelization of the passage in many manuscripts relates to its lectionary usage, and not to any doubts as to authenticity.  Secondly, the discovery of references in Didymus the Blind undercut the argument that the passage is not known in any Greek Father.  Thirdly, arguments from internal consistency are less convincing in John (which shows signs elsewhere of editorial redaction) than in the synoptics.  Hence the passasge may not have been penned by the "original evangelist", but still be considered canonical if incorporated by the "original redactor". Finally, the widely accepted view that "umlauts" in Vaticanus indicate known, rejected, variants, may support the testimony of Western Fathers in ingicating the pericope was widely found in John in the manuscript tradition by the 4th Century.  TomHennell (talk) 10:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Research  

message: The section on James Holding's views is borderline original research. While he's fairly well known, he's not an academic Bible scholar, and doesn't even have a relevant degree. Evercat (talk) 22:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be removed since most likely, he added it himself but even if not, he is a modern-day apologist with no degrees in any relevant study.  He's simply trying to do what Christians have done since day one: insert himself into the game covertly.  Someone should just do a quick search for J.P. Holding and remove all of his edits.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.36.165 (talk) 23:09, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, J.P. Holding isn't even his real name.  It's just more of his deception and he doesn't even allow anyone to post differing views on his personal website.  He is no scholar and is looked down upon by every legit scholar that has had the misfortune to run across his writings.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.36.165 (talk) 23:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I think he changed his name to be J. Holding. But that's not the point. Evercat (talk) 18:36, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: See the wikipedia article on J. P. Holding for name change info.Telpardec (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holding 

message: --24.6.228.145 (talk) 16:36, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: "letters" -  (Whatever words he wrote with letters, they were trampled underfoot later.)Telpardec (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I like to think that he wrote THEIR sins. 207.237.211.236 (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

text: WHY was he writing on the ground? :D Misty MH (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: He wrote nothing. The story is a late forgery. It is not in the oldest manuscripts.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.131.222 (talk) 10:25, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Sussmanbern gives further reasons for supposing that the whole story is completely untrue.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.131.222 (talk) 10:47, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  So, what did Jesus write on the ground? 

message: The Greek manuscripts that do include the story, all of which are late, from the 6th. century A.D. to the 15th., all have wild various readings in it. These suggest that the story is a late forgery and untrue.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.55.83 (talk) 11:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Textual variants" are only a small fraction of those actually existing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.11.197 (talk) 10:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The heading has been altered to take account of that.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.67.31 (talk) 13:21, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wild variations 

message: It was very ambiguous and false to write that some "Georgian mss." omit it, when most of the Georgian manuscripts actually have it. But the idea here is that the oldest manuscript, which is of Adysh lacks this, and later ones have it because all the later manuscripts are translations of X-XI century Georgian translation, so scribes just rewrote the Georgian one and didn't translate from Greek. Gospel of Adysh is late 9th century manuscript translated from Greek most possibly, so I just added the link to it and corrected it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Otherguylb (talk • contribs) 10:52, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changed the "Georgian Mss." to "Georgian Mss. of Adysh" 

message: Does the Catholic Church have a definite teaching regarding the authenticity of this passage?  If so, it might be worth at least mentioning whatever the Catholic church's official point of view is. 68.55.112.31 (talk) 01:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK the official answer is that as long as the passage is included in the current official edition of the Vulgate (1986) it should be treated as authentic. Dogmatically, only the definitions of Trent about the canon exist (which simply references the Vulgate as the authoritative text). It's probably that some detailed explanation from the Pontificial Commision on Sacred Texts exist, but i haven't checked it properly. If someone is interested in following this thread from a catholic POW i would recommend to get a copy of the University of Navarre's Bible NT volume. The critical apparatus there is enormous  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.45.227.197 (talk) 01:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic church 

message: So I see that the citation for the phonetic guide of pericope adulteræ includes the classical latin phonetic guide  in addition to the one being used for the main entry: .  I have two questions regarding these two phonetic guides:
1) The classical latin guide shoes that ae in adulterae is pronounced /ai/, but the linked wikipedia article on IPA for Latin shows /aj/, so which is correct?
2) The main phonetic guide for adulterœ shows that ae is pronunced /i/ like the English word "keen". I can't find a reference that allows æ to have this pronunciation, so where does it come from?
Mysteryegg (talk) 17:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The notation /ai/ is probably phonemic, and /aj/ a hypothesis about how it was actually pronounced, i.e. a more detailed transcription. They're equivalent. You can find the answer to your second question at Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin#Endings. DTOx (talk) 09:35, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonetic guide 

message: From the 4th paragraph:
To some Christians not concerned with textual disputes, the passage has been taken as confirmation of the literacy of Jesus, otherwise only suggested by implication in the Gospels, but the word "εγραφεν" in 8:8 could mean "draw" as well as "write". 
My gripe with the above sentence is the "otherwise only suggested by implication in the Gospels" canard. What about Luke 4:16-21? That section clearly shows Jesus reading--but even more so, depicts Him as being able to open a scroll and find the specific passage He wanted. This is NOT an "implication"...this is an explicit, indisputable narrative.
That said, this part of the article needs to be fixed...or excised.
Mindfruit (talk) 10:38, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it needs to go. The footnote looks like original research. It mentions a reliable source (which I don't have access to), but simply says "see also". "To some Christians not concerned with textual disputes" seems POVish. Also, the sentence doesn't belong in the lead. StAnselm (talk) 10:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have partly reinstated it, without the POV start, & talking about "writing" rather than "literacy". As explained in (I think) Historical Jesus, in all pre-modern societies reading was a far more common skill than writing, and the two were taught one after the other, not together. As the rest of the article is all about textual issues it does belong in the lead. Johnbod (talk) 13:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesus's Literacy 

message: Could this be used as an argument against the death penalty?98.228.223.184 (talk) 18:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argument against the Death Penalty 

message: Under the section "Textual History" we learn that: "Papias (circa AD 125) refers to a story of Jesus and a woman "accused of many sins" as being found in the Gospel of the Hebrews, which may well refer to this passage"
Technically, so far as can be determined, it was only Eusebius who said that he believed that the story could be found (in Eusebius' day) in a Hebrew gospel. Note that he (Eusebius) used the present tense in stating that the story IS to be found... //And he (Papias) also gives another story of a woman who was accused of many sins before the Lord, which IS to be found in the Gospel according to the Hebrews.// (newadvent.org)
Given that Jerome reported that //the pericope adulterae was to be found in its usual place (in John's gospel?) in "many Greek and Latin manuscripts" in Rome and the Latin West in the late 4th Century.// And that //This is confirmed by some Latin Fathers of the 4th and 5th Centuries CE; including Ambrose, and Augustine. The latter claimed that the passage may have been improperly excluded from some manuscripts in order to avoid the impression that Christ had sanctioned adultery.//
In other words, Papias noted the story c. 120, then Eusebius thought that it was to be found in a Hebrew gospel c.320, then Jerome & others claimed that it existed in "many Greek & Latin manuscripts" c. 400. Given that Jerome included in the Latin Vulgate in John's gospel, the weight of evidence would seem to say that that was where he found it (rather than in a Hebrew version of Matthew's gospel).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by AMBarber (talk • contribs) 20:50, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Textual History 

message: Does John 7:53 actually belong here? It seems to me that the story actually starts with John 8:1. John 7:53 just says "Then the meeting broke up, and everybody went home." It's the end of the previous story, not the beginning of the next story.Sonicsuns (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which verses to include? 

message: Of the five paragraphs, the first two (the longest) are about the passage's status as an interpolation and question of canonicity (it is also extremely biased and unbalanced, and almost completely unsourced) and the third and fifth are about the influence of the passage on later art and culture; only the fourth short paragraph deals with interpretation. I do not know exactly how this problem should ne addressed, so I'm posting it here rather than editing directly. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:15, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've kept 2 paras, & moved the rest to the lead, which was as usual much too short. Johnbod (talk) 14:44, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Interpretation" section needs to be split up, or renamed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: You need to edit the "Mosaic Law" section to also include Deuteronomy 17:7 "The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you."  The first stone had to be cast by a person who was an actual witness.  So, in order to institute stoning a person who actually witnessed the adultery, and who also "without sin" that is to say, not a participant in the adultery was the only one who had legal authority to cast the first stone.  From that, one can make such inferences as he wishes I guess.  To me it says don't be a gossip.  I don't think it is so much about hypocrisy, because when the New Testament talks about hypocrisy, it usually isn't coy.  In any event, it is important to explain that the casting of the first stone was a reference to Mosaic law.  Hypercallipygian (talk) 03:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mosaic Law 

message: This article as it stands today is to my mind guilty of several vices:
:it rambles like the Derby ram; 
:it fails to distinguish major from minor points, including far too many of the latter; 
:it gives far too much technical detail of little or no interest to at least 99% of readers;
:it lacks a sense of history, since people in the past without access to the internet could only go on the documents they had seen and the teaching they had heard;
:it contains long passages that are unsourced, so their credibility is therefore in doubt and their presence in the article potentially misleading; 
:it is unrepentantly sexist.
Does anybody disagree?
Clifford Mill (talk) 09:17, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Reading it again, as far as patience allowed, may I put up some positive ideas? Some of the text is about what many would possibly consider one of the relatively significant incidents in the reported life and teaching of Jesus. As such, it  probably merits an expanded article that  addresses the context and significance of the incident, which this one barely attempts. The rest of the present article must I suspect be of interest only to the infinitesimal minority of Wikipedia users who want to explore the arcane history of the textual variants and could therefore be (a) hived off into its own article or (b) without great loss deleted. Clifford Mill (talk) 17:34, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really - the religious significance of the passage is severely compromised by the belief of most textual scholars that it is a later addition. On the other hand, for the many interested in biblical textual issues, it is a very important subject. I would certainly oppose a split. Johnbod (talk) 19:26, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Clifford has retired. He seems to have over-looked the Wikipedia ban on telling us about his thoughts and feelings.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.131.222 (talk) 10:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Guilty of several vices?