Talk:Tea/Archive 1

message: ----
I get the impression this page is good but it needs to be split up since it is REALLY confusing where all the facts are, I propose:
*Tea history/word page
*Tea types/countries page with photos of tea types
*Tea ceremonies
I think this would be a good idea, since all needs to be done is a little fiddling; but photos of tea are important and for owners of tea very easy to take? Bad idea, but still? [anonymous]
:Tea habitation and cultivation is important. About taking photo tea tree : actually the drawing is more than adequate. While taking photo for different types of tea, it is more complicated. 
Sltan
:: I guess, I am not an expert at tea, but I read somewhere that Black Tea was also this bittery medicine-like tea that is in a sense green, I don't know how authentic that is, since there is a lot of confusion over Red Teas, Green Teas, Light Green Teas and most of all Black Teas (some people say they are Red, Pu-Erh-style or Hunan-style or that medicinal-style). Confusing. 
Reference for the medicinal black tea argument is in "The Way of Tea"by Master Kam Lam Chuen et al on p 68-69. The teas mentioned are "Wu Tang" (bitter stalk tea, also known as Ku Ting) and "He Lung Chu" (black dragon ball). However the Ku Ting seems to be a herb, I have not tried it (yet!) but on http://www.teaspring.com/Kuding-Tea.asp is is classifed as a herb.
[the same anonymous]
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Hey I made some changes to the "how to prepare tea" section because there were some things that were either out of order or redundent. I didn't actually change much of the content though except for a couple of small typos and clarifications. Alex Krupp 02:11, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)
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A lot of real tea is made from Camellia assamica, a tea plant which is different from Camellia sinensis.   All of Assam comes from the assamica variety and some of Ceylon too.  
:I'd read that it was Camellia Sinensis Sinensis and Camellia Sinensis Assamica, but perhaps this was incorrect. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 03:48, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Assamica and Sinensis had been classified as two separate species, but are now classifed as two variants of the same species, Camellia Sinensis var. Sinensis and  Camellia Sinensis var. Assamica. --Stephan Schulz 00:06, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: I only have anecdotal evidence to support my claim, but the different-preparation theory is untrue.  However, large U.S. tea producers do make special blends for iced tea.  (Speaking of which, I'm about to add something about iced tea.) -- Jim Redmond 16:43, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, added a very brief mention of iced tea.  It needs more, but I can't think of how to phrase it - someone please help! -- Jim Redmond 18:13, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes

message: The four main types of tea are distinguished by their processing. Camellia sinensis is an evergreen shrub whose leaves, if not quickly dried after picking, soon begin to wilt and oxidize. This process resembles the malting of barley, in that starch is converted into sugars; the leaves turn progressively darker, as chlorophyll breaks down and tannins are released. The next step in processing is to stop the oxidation process at a predetermined stage by removing the water from the leaves via heating.
The term fermentation was used (probably by wine fanciers) to describe this process, and has stuck, even though no true fermentation happens (i.e. the process is not driven by microbes and produces no ethanol). Without careful moisture and temperature control, fungi will grow on tea. The fungi will cause fermentation which will contaminate the tea with toxic and carcinogenic substances. In fact, when real fermentation happens, the tea must be discarded.
What four main types? Does this refer to the more-than-four items below (White, Green, Oolong, etc)? Is Camellia sinensis the only tea plant, and where is the botanical link? Will fix if needed, but wanted to ask first.  SM 22:50, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a little vague; generally rephrasing. The tea article is really getting out of hand, its becoming a little impossible to fix, end moan. Actually there is some deviation in tea processing depending on what type; I had a good reference for this but I've lost it. Rolling is not common to all tea types, nor is fermentation or how it stopped etc. --Iateasquirrel 16:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Divisions of tea by processing technique'', please clarify ''non sequitur'' 

message: The only significant exporters of black tea are India and Sri Lanka (Ceylon).
*Kenya exports more tea than Sri Lanka. Other countries are propably also signifficant.
China is the only significant exporter of green tea, as nearly the entire Japanese production is consumed domestically. 
*What about Vietnam?
As of the late 1990s, the annual tea production of India was just short of one billion kilograms, of which 203 million kg were exported in 1997.
Statistics section should be replaced by some table from some reputable trade organization. I'l try to look for some.
Wikimol
===Statistics (production) ===
work in progress
*India (2002) 873874t
**Darjeeling (2002) 11068t
**Assam (2002) 449357t
**Total South India (2002) 210801t
-732,350t CTC, 88,904t orthodox, 4,911other
-
*Sri Lanka (2003) 310kt
,
 up do Nov.
*Indonesia (2000) 157371t
*China 
**(2000) 683324t
**(2002) 740kt
*Kenya (2000) 236286t
todo Tanzani, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Turkey, Georgia, Japan,
year total 2991827t (2000) 
===Statistics (export) ===
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"In Sri Lanka, tea is served in the English style, with milk and sugar, but with the interesting difference that the milk is always warmed."
English tea is often made with warmed milk. I'm not sure the above comment should be in the article, but I am loathed to remove it.
:I've never come across tea made with warm milk in England.   Are your family weird? Markalexander100 06:56, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, changed to tea is served in the English style, with milk and sugar, but the milk is always warmed. Leaves the English style nicely ambiguous. Markalexander100 05:33, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  World market statistics 

message: ----
"In Sri Lanka, tea is served in the English style, with milk and sugar, but with the interesting difference that the milk is always warmed."
English tea is often made with warmed milk. I'm not sure the above comment should be in the article, but I am loathed to remove it.
:I've never come across tea made with warm milk in England.   Are your family weird? Markalexander100 06:56, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, changed to tea is served in the English style, with milk and sugar, but the milk is always warmed. Leaves the English style nicely ambiguous. Markalexander100 05:33, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Statistics (export) 

message: "Tea is grown primarily in Mainland China, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, Australia, Argentina and Kenya."
I have not seen recent numbers for volume produced by country, but there are a few other countries that might warant mention. Korea; which has some pretty unique teas that they grow, Indonesia; which I beleive produces quite a lot of tea (although dwarfed by their coffee production), Malaysia; Thailand and Vietnam also produce tea (I beleive this is mostly consumed locally.) I was very surprised to find locally produced Pu Erh in Thailand (I have also had some nice Pu Erh from Vietnam.)
: Perhaps the geographical plan will explain this. Pur-Erh is from Yunan. The border is pretty close to Vietname. Beside stayin in Yunan, Li-tribes also found in Vietname. sltan
"Unblended black teas are also identified by the estate they come from and the flush (first, second or autumn)."
My understanding is that the term "flush" is mostly used for Indian (esp. Darjeeling) tea. I have not seen the term used for teas outside of India. In taiwan, they often classify tea based on the season when the leaf was picked (Summer Bahjong, Winter Oolong, etc), however I have never seen the term flush used to describe taiwanese teas.
:It is merely definition from different language sltan. 
I have not seen the estate (which I beleive to be a very colonial concept) idea used in China. They tend to name their teas based on some geographic feature that is near where the tea is produced. Yellow River, WuYi Mountain, etc.
:Chinese tea processing are more complicated than black tea. As quality play over quantity sltan. 
"The CTC method is used for lower quality leaves that end up in tea bags and are processed by machines."
I recently visited a Tata estate in Kerala, India. They have about 250sq miles of tea and ALL of it is processed using the CTC method. 
"Black tea is usually named after the region of origin: Darjeeling, Assam, Ceylon, etc. and further by estates and grades for quality leaf: e.g., "Darjeeling Lingia FTGFOP1"."
The "Finest Tippy Golden Flowering Orange Pekoe First Flush" method of classifying tea appears to be limited to India (I have seen some Sri Lankan teas using this nomenclature, but I think it's a marketing thing rather than a tradition.) I have never seen this method of classifying tea used for Chinese or Taiwanese tea.
"Jasmine tea is spread with jasmine flowers while oxidizing, and occasionally some are left in the tea as a decoration. Many other flowers, including roses and other fragrant blooms, are used as flavouring in tea in China."
I have heard (although I have not witnessed this process). That tea is often placed under hanging jasmine bushes over night. Apparently the "essence" (oil, I beleive) is transferred to the leaf. I have read that they will do this about 3 times for regular jasime teas and as much as 10 times for the superior grades of jasmine tea.
: Myths. Jasmine tea never fetch a high price in China sltan
"In Sri Lanka, tea is served in the English style, with milk and sugar, but the milk is always warmed."
I found this in various places in India as well. I assumed that this was done in order to make sure that the milk was safe to drink (esp. for foreigners.) Although it might also have to do with not cooling the beverage.
"There are several tea ceremonies which have arisen in different cultures, the most famous of which are the complex, formal and serene Japanese tea ceremony and Yum Cha."
:Japanese tea ceremony inherit the method from Tang Dynasty. In China. the ceremony has evovle to Kung-Fu-Tea. Yum Char is merely Hong Kong style of living. sltan
It would be great to have a good description of the chinese tea ceremony, which I believe is often called "Gung Fu/Kung Fu"(sp?) ceremony. From what I have witnessed, this is much less formal than Chado and is also more social, however there are definately very clear proceedures that should be followed, and taboos as well...
"Cold tea is very popular in Japan as well. In cafeterias and lunch-type restaurants, the meal is usually served with hot or cold green tea according to the customer's preferences. Most of the ubiquitous vending machines also carry a sometimes excessive selection of cold bottled teas."
I was delighted to find both cold and hot tea avaialble from vending machines all over japan. I have had some really good English style tea with milk and sugar out of a can in Japan... go figure! :)
"Since boiling point drops with altitude, this makes it difficult to brew black tea properly in mountainous areas." 
I live over a mile high, I have found that it is quite easy to get boiling (100C) water by using a microwave, although I have not found any black teas where this has significantly improved the flavor of the finished brew.
"Water for green tea, according to most accounts, should be around 80 to 85°C — the higher the quality of the leaves, the lower the temperature."
When visiting Japan, I discovered that they tend to brew their very delicate (steam dried) teas at about 150F/65C, as someone who has been rather dissapointed with Japanese tea for years, this has completely changed my experience of the little islands leaf. My understanding is that brewing temperature has more to do with the un-infused moisture content of the leaf than it has to do with the quality of the leaf.
"Some teas, especially green teas and delicate Oolongs or Darjeeling teas, are steeped for shorter periods, sometimes less than 30 seconds. Using a tea strainer separates the leaves from the water at the end of the brewing time if a tea bag is not being used."
In China and Taiwan, Oolong is generally prepaired in the Gung Fu style. This calls for a small teapot (often a bit bigger than a fist) to be filled about 1/3 full of leaf. The leaf is usually washed with steaping temperature water for a few seconds. The resulting liquid is discuarded (this is often referred to as waking up the tea). Then the tea will be steaped for a short time (often less than 30 seconds for the first infusion) I have heard it said that the first infusion should be steaped for 4 slow breaths. I beleive this to be poetic rather than practical, but it is a reasonable middle ground for a lot of oolong teas. Many infusions can be brewed using the same leaf. I have heard it said by the Taiwanese that the 13 steaping is supposed to be the most sublime... as an amature, I am hardly ever able to get more than about 7 steapings out of a good quality Oolong.
: When pouring water around 85 degrees, the temperature will drop a few degrees, depends how high you pour the tea. Premium Oolong or green tea should not steaped more than 15 seconds. Tanin will be release afterwards. Shorter than 15 seconds, the tea substance will dolute too little to give the taste. That's why Chinese call it Kung-Fu Tea. Just don't take the 13 steaping too serious.sltan
:Yep :) Lot of work. Gong fu is described in article Chinese tea culture. Boiling point is not affected by method of heating the liquid (* well, with temperature of boiling its more compliacted). --Wikimol 15:46, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarifications 

message: It seems like a lot of tea shops in the US are now serving Roiboos and Mate. I have seen Roiboos confusingly referred to as Red Tea... It might be worth linking to information on these products in order to clarify that they are not tea (as cool as they both are :)
:Red tea is now a disambiguation page, pointing to Rooiboos or Black tea. 03:33, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roiboos/Mate 

message: I read the article, and no history of tea was said.
Actually, Tea is already mentioned in Shi Jing (476 BC) and many Chinese historical evens have related to tea.
Does tea come from China???
:No-one knows: . Markalexander100 03:42, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  This History is not very clear??? 

message: Are those pictures really before 1915?  They're in color.  Something doesn't seem right.
:Yes, I think the dates are right.   Prokudin-Gorskii was a well-known pioneer of colour photography in the Black Sea area at the time. Mark1 03:12, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: To clarify things, he actually took 3 photos of each scene with red, green, and blue filters.  While he was not able to combine these into a single image, this has be done with modern technology. So, true color photography did not exist at the time, but we do have color photographs from that time.  Seems like a paradox, doesn't it ? StuRat 21:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  pictures: date looks incorrect 

message: Quotes should preferrably be limited to one or two "defining quotes" (typically one by a person and some about a person, in case of people), to prevent the section from growing disproportionately large. Since I'm pretty sure we won't agree on what the "defining quotes" for tea should be, and since we have Wikiquote for a reason, I've moved them all. JRM 11:54, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC)
:I disagree with moving all of them.  Surely in an encyclopedia something as culturally important as tea can have some quotes in the article.  I certainly would expect that in a print encyclopedia. -- WormRunner | Talk 17:46, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely. Which ones? The problem is that a "Quotes" section acts like a magnet to contributors. (I never thought I'd call that a bad thing :-) I thought the current section with its 8 quotes was already close to overdoing it. I thought long and hard about what quotes I wanted to keep, and I'm sorry to say that I couldn't make up my mind. They're all good! If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably go with the Japanese proverb, "a man without tea in him is incapable of understanding truth and beauty", but that's just my personal choice.If we have to go halfway between "none at all" and "everything anybody can think of", what, in your opinion, is the best way to go about it? A vote? A coin toss? A careful cross-section of cultures (maybe a Chinese, Japanese and Western quote, observing the exploits of tea across the world)? Or just keep everything and accept the possibility of quote overkill (the easy, but also slightly cowardly way out)?PS. I'm drinking tea right now. :-) JRM 20:55, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC)
Perhaps the problem could be resolved by a template which draws from a pool of appropriate quotes at random (with the means to rotate in another, like in bugzilla).  Could be used broadly SM 23:13, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tea quotes 

message: Templates and Wikiproject
I have set up a Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tea to coordinate the creation of good information in detail on tea varieties (i.e. Da Hong Pao) and specifications, maybe with the support of people expanding to the categories (i.e. White tea) to make a coherent view of tea. The basic idea is there is a need for people with tea and with time and with a digital photo camera to take pictures, anyway enough said, have a look at
* The Wikiproject at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Tea
* Example converted pages at Yunnan tea, Keemun tea, Vietnam tea
--Iateasquirrel 00:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tea Articles, templates, better organisation, more articles

message: As far as I've understood all tea contains caffeine, and in all the tea types the caffeine does infuse into the water upon brewing. One day I stood in for a friend at a coffee shop, and found customers asking for a tea without caffeine, and I would reccomend a fruit infusion, but be answered "no, that's not tea, don't you have some green tea?" I would answer yes we do, but that holds caffeine. This would cause the customer to ridicule me. Happened three times that day, so if I'm right, then this must be a very common misunderstanding. If I'm wrong, and the caffeine in green tea somehow does not enter the water, then the article should mention it.
:Green tea has caffeine, on average slighly less than black tea per gramm of black tea, but it is not significant. Of course caffeine is very soluble in water, so if you drink the second and following infusions (as is frequently done with green tea), there is very little caffeine left. --Stephan Schulz 09:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about caffeine 

message: Though the section now looks messy, I'm not sure if the "Chinese Tea Culture" part is relevant/works in another part of this article. Suggestions on reorganization? -- Sjschen 07:18, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tea Culture--China, bursting at the seams 

message: I rewrote the sentence about tea "replacing" alcohol as the social drink, since beer, wine and raki are all readily available in Türkiye. I assume that  it's not all Euro. and Aus. holidaymakers snarfing the stuff up, is it? Ellsworth 17:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This way or the other, the wording isn't fortunate, as it implies "alcohol is the normal social beverage" which is "replaced" by the tea. I'll try to expand the section and describe it in more detail. --Wikimol 18:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkey

message: There is virtually nothing on how the British created the modern tea Industry. Nothing about how they set up tea plantations throughout the world and how tea was smuggled from China and how coolies were initially transported from China to India and then coolies taken from India to other tea plantations in places like Kenya, Uganda and Sri Lanka creating racial tensions with the indigenous populations e.g. the expulsian of Asians from Uganda and the terrorist activities of the Tamil Tigers. How did thet get to be a featured article!? Jooler
:In that case, why don't you write something about it? -- Sjschen 02:18, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lack of real history

message: The link to tea strainer is very dubious (at this time, it's a redirection to a redirection to Filter (chemistry)). I, however, do not know what a tea strainer is, never having seen one, so may I request someone who knows to look at it?
--Dolda2000 19:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're in luck, my Dad has one, and I have a digital camera.  The next time I visit I will take a pic and then make an article to match. Thanks for identifying the need ! StuRat 20:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tea strainer? 

message: I removed this
Milk was added as the working class had access only to earthenware cups before the British discovery of the manufacturing technique for porcelain; the hot tea poured directly into the cup could cause cracking. as it repeats (but less accurately as removing the element of doubt implied by 'said') something from the Additives text further down:
In the United Kingdom, adding the milk first is historically considered a lower-class method of preparing tea; the upper classes always add the milk last. The origin of this distinction is said to be that the rougher earthenware mugs of the working class would break if boiling-hot tea was added directly to them, whereas the fine glazed china cups of the upper class would not. It is now considered by most to be a personal preference..
The new element is the reference to the introduction (rather than discovery) of porcelain manufacture to Britain, but I would suggest not adding this unless there is a scholarly reference for it. There is much mythology regarding the addition of milk to tea in Britain, and in a quick scan of the food history literature I have not uncovered a study of the topic based on primary sources. Roy Moxham's suggestion in Tea: Addiction, Exploitation and Empire that addition of milk relates to the adoption of the more astringent black tea in the 18th century seems convincing to me. As tea consumption did not become a mass pursuit until the 19th century (annual consumption in Britain in 1810: 12,000 tons; 1890: 89,000 tons), it looks as if addition of milk predates its large-scale consumption by the 'working class'. Mark Nesbitt 08:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Milk in tea

message: Perennial Tea Ceremony
can someone help clean it up, I also would like to see the catagory tea ceremony worked on there are so many kinds of them I guess they should be arranged by tea/teaceremony/country/  any ideas here is another ceremony i put up Wu-Wo Tea Ceremony, both are from Taiwan. Also I want to make later some kind of entry for modern tea customs,,,  any ideas........
--Sherdwen 06:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: help

message: Since there is now an article on US tea culture, shouldn't the info in Tea#United_States which is duplicate be truncated?
LuiKhuntek 03:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: US tea culture revisions

message: From the article:
Iranians traditionally drink tea by pouring it into the saucer and putting a lump of sugar in the mouth before drinking the tea. This is seen nowhere else in the world.
Curiously, this is the way older Finnish people drink (or at least used to drink: I haven't seen this method in years, but it was common amongst older people when I was young) _coffee_. Anyone have any idea how two totally separate cultures have picked up a similar method of beverage drinking? And why tea for one, and coffee for the other? --GNiko 11:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Iranian drinking method

message: Coca tea is made from leaves of Coca (Erythroxylum coca). Tea is made of leaves of Camellia sinensis. This article is about tea, not about every social drink drunk at the planet made by infusion, which would include not only Coca team, but also all herbal teas, Rooibos, Yerba mate, etc. --Wikimol 10:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Coca tea

message: This deserves a mention - presumably around the economics of the tea trade or the production system. Midgley 09:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. It is important issue with so-and-so many people turning up ant the Edinburgh G8 March (including myself) last year, it is well worth adding -- Davidpk212 22:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tea and the Fair Trade movement 

message: A lot of these seem dubious, and include the removal of the referenced production figures - can someone with knowledge of the points changed check it over, please? Unfortunately, it can't be reverted easily because of subsequent good edits. - MPF 11:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits by 64.213.98.17 at 15:10, 16 March 2006

message: (note from a Brit - actually, "builder's tea" is just any strong, milky and sweet tea: normally a lot more than 2 spoons of sugar)
I removed the above from the article, as the talk page is for comments on articles.  If the poster (or someone else) wants to incorporate this into the article appropriately, feel free. yEvb0 19:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  builder's tea