Talk:Clarence Darrow

message: Removed the ACLU comment, an obvious advertisement.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.165.52.226 (talk) 04:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro Revision

message: At first glance, the picture does seem to be of the actors, not of Darrow and Bryan.  But take another, closer look.  Then, find separate pictures of each man, at the appropriate age, and you will find that the photo is authentic as described.  A A Civis (talk) 19:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Actually, Correct Picture

message: You have to revise in a stepwise manner if you don't want to be summarily reverted. It is also impolite to throw out almost entirely the current page which is the product of the work of many people over many months if not years.. surely you can appreciate that? Anyway, let's start at the beginning with the unsourced / POV stuff.. where did you get the idea that "He remains famous today as much for the myths that have grown up around him as for what he actually did"? Also why won't you get a username.. it will probably make things easier for you in the days ahead. Zargulon 07:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Not desperately

message: :Yes, I meant 'one point at a time'. I really think you are more likely to get more of what you want that way.. that's not specifically a threat to revert, it's just my experience of how things will work out if and when other people become involved in this discussion..
Well it sure reads like a threat.  especially since you are doing to my version of the entry exactly what you say I *shouldn't* do.
Eric
:There are two points about the myth issue. Cowan seems to me to be explicitly qualifying the statement as being his own point of view (note for me and many of my contemporaries), so I'm uncomfortable about simply stating that the Darrow was more myth than man, and it sounds like a turn of phrase rather than a definitive statement anyway. I have never heard of or seen any of the films, so for me, what he did was actually more important. Also, this is an article about the man, not the myth, so although it is certainly appropriate to mention the movies and the fact that they are heavily fictionalized (I trust you on that...) I think that should go at the bottom (where it currently is!) Zargulon 09:54, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Man or Myth?

message: To: Zargulon: Well, you asked for references, and then you misinterpreted one and ignored the rest.  Moreover you rejected part of the evidence simply on the basis that it doesn't tally with *your* personal experience.  This is clearly abn example of imposing your own POV on the material - in direct contravention of the Wikipedia guidelines.
Still, I'm willing to give it another stab.  You say you think changes should be made one step at a time.  So what's the first change that you are willing to accept without reverting?
Eric
To Phil Welch: Please explain the specific edits which you believe are POV?
By the way, what is "Zargulon"?  Klingon? Romulon?
Eric
:You'd have to ask him. I really don't have time at the moment to detail my objections. By the way, you can sign your edits with ~~~~ and register an account above. — Phil Welch 22:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Please explain

message: To Phil:  Just one example would suffice.  I'm simply trying to find out what *you* mean by "POV".
To Zargulon: Well, we progress.  It really would help, though, if you signalled on the Discussion page that you had made a change.  If you check the History you will see that I reverted to my version this morning (before I'd had my first cup of coffee) - and then restored your amended version when I realised that you'd made changes.  If I hadn't visited the "History" page and spotted the revision I would have left my version in place and might have given you the idea that I wasn't ready to accept anything short of a complete edit.
Anyway, my question now is "You've accepted some amendments - mainly additions, I *think* - but you have removed all links, and the references, even those directly relevant to the material you've accepted."
Given that providing references that can be checked by Wikipedia editors, and anyone else interested in the material, is specifically requested in the Wikipedia guidelines I don't understand why you have done this?
I also notice that you have not amended the comment which claims that Darrow took many pro bono cases.  Could you please provide a source for that claim?
Eric
:Please feel free to put in the links that are relevant to the part about Darrow's early career.. I just didn't know which ones were and which ones weren't. Zargulon 08:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: First Step

message: to Phil and Zargulon: I HAVE applied for a user name, but for some reason I haven't yet received a password.
Eric
:You have to choose your own password. There should be four boxes on the registration screen: name, E-mail(optional), password and retype password. Once you fill all these in and press submit, you should have an account.
Testing, testing:
81.151.8.120 13:37, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about that, usually it works straight away. First check a couple of things. You ought to be signing your edits with 4 (four) tilde characters in a row. Are you..? Second of all, change your nickname to Eric by clicking on preferences at the top right, and then filling in Eric in the "nickname" box. Zargulon 13:45, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Create Account Difficulties

message: The statement that Darrow only took one case pro bono was false and was removed.  Read Irving Stone's book or any other for a reference.
The statement that he was always in pursuant of wealth has no basis.
--AceLT 08:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro Bono 

message: When Darrow found that the McNamaras were responsible for destroying bridges: "He felt like a man with a rumbling volcano in his pocket, trying to hold back the eruption with his naked hand." p.278
Does this sentence sound odd to anyone else?
Rakovsky 07:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote from Irving Stone's biography 

message: The Fox case which was deleted should be kept.  The citation is clear, July 23 1915 Chicago Tribune, and the facts are indisputable.  Darrow represented Fox in an effort to have Brazelton committed to an insane asylum against her will.  Please don't delete factual information.
Citation needed
--AceLT 19:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  J.H. Fox/Brazelton Case

message: Does anyone know what the expression means when you refer to someone as  "a regular Clarence Darrow?"  If so, could you address this and add it to this topic or a related one?
--WikiCrazy 01:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "regular Clarence Darrow" 

message: This section does not explicity state which party Darrow defended: the whites or the blacks. The reader should not have to guess based on the material presented.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ligart (talk • contribs) 14:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ossian Sweet  

message: First off, thanks to all who have contributed to this page. As I read it, however, it seems to be lacking a bit in the biographical information.  Married? Kids? I read several other articles that mention his cross examination of W.J. Bryan, and was interested in his religion or lack of it.  The article mentions he was an agnostic, could you expand on that?  What were the circumstances of his later life and death?  I read he was devastated by the Depression. Did he die alone and broke?  Again, not trying to be a critic and I know I can do the research myself and modify, but I'm no writer.  Thanks!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.75.169.240 (talk) 14:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bio Info 

message: I've removed the adjective "famous" from "famous statesman", not because I doubt it but because of the redundancy. One of the first things I learned as a journalist was that it was pointless to call people "famous" or "well-known". If they are famous or well-known, people will have heard of them. If they haven't heard of them, they are neither famous nor well-known.Les woodland (talk) 07:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Famous'

message: I strongly disagree that mention of Darrow's affiliation is "an advertisement" in any form.  It isn't as far as I am concerned. Rather, it is an important fact that reflects both upon him, his history and activities, and also upon the ACLU.  7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. It's odd there's no mention. He was a member of the ACLU National Committee and they were behind the Scopes trial. 76.180.168.166 (talk) 02:19, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: ACLU attachment

message: Someone should add a section about his noted defense of Big Bill Haywood for the 1905 murder of the Idaho governor as recounted in J. Anthony Lucas's book, Big Trouble.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.231.249.138 (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Big Trouble

message: There are many errors and omissions in the paragraph 3 of of the section titled "From corporate lawyer to labor lawyer."
A good source for this topic is American Lightning by Howard Blum (2008).
I can see people have put a lot of work into this page and they are to be commended.  I believe that this article would benefit from and edit by a trained historian and someone more knowledgeable about Darrow. I wince when I see About.com used as a reference.
Haross1 (talk) 18:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  McNamara Brothers 

message: The statement that Darrow lost all work for unions after the McNamara Brothers case is false.  The WFM (Haywood) case in Idaho came after the McNamara case, and was probably equally as well known to most Americans in the first half of the 20th Century.  The statement should be removed.  I have added a paragraph about the Haywood trial, but more could be added about it.  For it not to be included as one of Darrow's most important cases is unimaginable.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.170.125.7 (talk) 08:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  False Comment 

message: I am working on a biography of Darrow for Doubleday, and will be happy to work on this entry over the coming months. I also administrate a Facebook group, "Admirers of Clarence Darrow." My web page is www.jafarrell.com. jafJafarrell (talk) 23:25, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Darrow Rewrite 

message: I wanted to highlight a wonderful actor name Gary Anderson.  He does a wonderful Clarence Darrow ans has a foundation and performs all over the country.  He's website is http://clarencedarrowfoundation.org/ .  He performed for the Marin County Woman Lawyers and he was absolutely wonderful.  I highly recommend his shows.  Anna Gregorian, Esq., Lakeport, California.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.80.229.143 (talk) 04:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarence Darrow, beautifully portrayed by Gary Anderson 

message: The current text of this entry on Clarence Darrow includes the following: "The law made it illegal for public school teachers in Tennessee to teach that man evolved from lower organisms, but the law was sometimes interpreted as meaning that the law forbade the teaching of any aspect of the theory of evolution. The law did not prohibit the teaching of evolution of any other species of plant or animal."
I can understand why someone might write this, but I think it's inaccurate. If a person thinks that evolution generally is different from the evolution of humans, then the Butler Act seems ambiguous. It reads first: "An act prohibiting the teaching of the Evolution Theory in all of the Universities, Normals, and other public schools... " That sounds to me like it outlaws evolution, period.  The Act goes on to say, "That it shall be unlawful for any teacher in any of the Universities, Normals and all other public schools of the State which are supported in whole or in part by the public schools funds of the State, to teach any theory that denies the story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible, and to teach instead that man has descended from a lower order of animals." 
The theory of evolution accounts for the evolution of all organisms, including humans, so any coverage of evolution would cover humans, even when humans are not mentioned. To say that the Butler Act only outlawed the teaching of human evolution and not evolution generally is a little like saying that a law only outlawed the teaching of gravity as it applies to baseball and not to football or civil engineering. Gravity applies generally, not just in certain cases. Same for evolution. Basically, what I mean to say is that evolution includes the evolution of humans by default and the Butler Act seems to assume that as well. I am going to adjust the text accordingly.
Eperotao (talk) 00:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point, and if no one objects, I will modify it. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:34, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Objection: Distinction between the Theory of Evolution and evolution of human beings 

message: I am no authority on his life and literally know hardly anything about him, but I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there who do know. That said, there is only a brief paragraph about his "upbringing" but no mention anywhere about any other aspects of his personal life. If this be the case, the article should be titled The Career of Clarence Darrow rather than only Clarence Darrow. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 15:26, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needs a real biography, otherwise its title is wrong. 

message: The part that reads as follows surely must be a typo. Perhaps Ashtabula might be the largest city is that part of the county, but not the country.
"From corporate lawyer to labor lawyer[edit]
Darrow opened his first little office in Andover, Ohio, . . . and moved his practice to Ashtabula, Ohio, with a population of 5,000 people and the largest city in that part of the country,[6]"
:Well I suppose it depends on how you define "that part of the country."  It seems that changing it to "county" might be a quick & dirty solution.  Carptrash (talk) 23:42, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this a typo? 

message: The intro claims, without citation, that "He was best known for defending teenage thrill killers Leopold and Loeb in their trial for murdering 14-year-old Robert "Bobby" Franks (1924). Some of his other notable cases included defending Ossian Sweet, and John T. Scopes in the Scopes "Monkey" Trial (1925), in which he opposed William Jennings Bryan (statesman, noted orator, and three-time presidential candidate)."
I find it hard to believe that anybody knowledgeable would seriously argue that Scopes was not Darrow's best-known case.  Ask anybody to name a case Darrow defended, and that's the one they will name. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 20:06, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Most famous case 

message: After WW1, Darrow visited Belgium to offer $1,000 (enough to buy a house) to anyone who could confirm German atrocities, raping nuns, cannibalism, 'crucified Canadian' etc.etc... The money remained unclaimed. The British government eventually apologized for these lies. Telling lies about Germans is a sport.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.129.97.116 (talk) 22:48, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  After WWi Darrow offered $1,000 to anyone who could confirm German atrocities 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In 1918 Darrow visited Belgium and offered US $1,000, enough money to purchase a house,  for evidence that the Germans committed widely publicized stories about German atrocities during WW1. Nobody claimed the money. The liars who spread the nonsense were responsible for millions of deaths and many more maimings  were never punished. America entered WW1 after Germany offered peace in 1916.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.129.107.54 (talk) 23:58, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  1918 

message: Clarence Darrow served in the Illinois House of Representatives in 1903 and 1904 as an Independent-'Illinois Blue Book 1903-1904,' Biographical Sketch of Clarence S. Darrow, pg. 367. Thank You-RFD (talk) 16:47, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illinois House of Representatives 

message: I would suggest that the last paragraph of this section be deleted unless and until definitive citation can be found (it is marked [citation needed])
I spent about an hour scouring the web and every mention of Darrow and his possible representation of Fox against Brazelton points back or is the exact same verbiage as this wikipedia page. It seems wrong that a section of questionable veracity and without citation has spread across the web as if carved in stone by God. Amicusets (talk) 11:45, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  From labor lawyer to criminal lawyer