Talk:Lion (heraldry)

message: Just wanted to say that there is no use for this article as we already have a heraldry article, which we could have just added some of this information to. In anycase, I would like to mention that unlike much of the rest of Western Europe, Germany does not associate itself with the lion much. The Tiger (under Nazi Germany) and leopard (before Nazi Germany and now) are/were the choice for some coat of arms in Germany. The eagle is by far the main animal that you will most often find in German heraldry, however. With this said, I took out the black panthers (leopards) that were mistaken for lions from the coat of arms of some German states and districts. I kept the coat of arms of Thuringia because it is a lion and I added other coat of arms from different nations and/or cities, states and districts just to make it a little more diverse. User:TheGoodSon
: The only difference between lions and leopards in heraldry is their posture.  —Tamfang 00:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by "upright"?  Statant, sejant, salient ...?  —Tamfang 22:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No use?

message: I removed the UK arms because England and Scotland are also displayed separately (and more visibly!).  If there are images of the crests only, those might be added.
Thuringia could also be dropped, as it is obviously derived from Hesse.
We probably don't really need so many examples of "a shield with a lion, supported by two lions", particularly at this size.  —Tamfang 19:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  how many examples? 

message: Instead of adding a leopard section into lion article, I propose to rename it into Heraldic beast which would contain both (and more) with proper redirects, of course. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Disagree because 'heraldic beast' would be far too ambiguous; it could encompass wyverns and gryphons and all sorts.  In British heraldry, at least, the lion is more commonly used.  Mon Vier 23:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

text: 'Oppose Heraldic beasts will be far too long a list and the heraldic concepts about the lion and leopard are pretty old. We should keep the two articles. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 13:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge suggestion 

message: Is there a reference or source for the statement that the Bohemian two-tailed lion 'originally was an artist's flourish'?
I'm not contesting it - merely fascinated. I found a reference to the Santiago Dotor, 9 Sep 2002 which says:
"The oldest arms of the Kings of Bohemia showed in silver a black eagle, covered with golden tears (still used by the Italian region Trient). The silver double-tailed lion was introduced by King Ottokar_II_of_Bohemia in 1249. Ever since the double-tailed lion remained on the arms of Bohemia."
If it's that old, I'd assume that the only evidence for the Artistic Flourish Hypothesis would be particularly ancient images showing that flourish. Anybody have one?
Purely in the interest of science, you understand... --Cdavis999 (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely you mean the appropriate evidence would be examples of the lion of Bohemia not showing the flourish? —Tamfang (talk) 05:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Er, I meant showing the flourish as a flourish, rather than as a second fork. I note other heraldic lions with little flufts ((c) 1984 K. Louw) sticking out of the shaft of their tails, and I can see how this might have evolved. I'd just like to see specific examples - if they exist - of the one that supposedly led to the two-tailed Bohemian Beastie. Just curiosity, is all. --Cdavis999 (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  That Bohemian fork-tailed lion 

message: Shouldnt it be noted that Passant also means Guardant? Ive seen it both ways.♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 06:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by "seen it both ways"?  Passant means walking; guardant means looking.  The lions of England are passant and guardant, but there are examples of lions passant not guardant, and (fewer) of lions rampant guardant.  —Tamfang (talk) 05:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, the Welsh lions are likewise passant guardant.  —Tamfang (talk) 07:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Passant or guardant?

message: I've just come across this term, which appears to mean a lion depicted without the tail, a change in arms forced upon the bearer when he fell from grace with the crown… am I correct in my interpretation? (my main sources are a 19th-century French dictionary and a popular novel…) Thanks for any help. Physchim62 (talk) 18:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a term of blazon it may be real, but abatements (alterations for disgrace) appear to be mythical. —Tamfang (talk) 09:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lion diffamé

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with File:Coat of Arms of the Philippines.png

message: The text under "lion vs. leopard" on the main page is ambiguous, and even contradictory in places. As a user with native command of French and very good command of English with an interest in heraldry, here is what I gather from the French Wikipedia articles about heraldry, chiefly the very well-written :fr:Lion (héraldique), which begins by a comparison of the two beasts; and the collection fr:Armorial au lion where you'll see lions of all kinds, to your heart's content or maybe even ad nauseam. I'll write the French names in bold below, and the English ones in italics to make clear which is which, leaving aside the question of whether or not a leopard should be thought of as a bastard creature as a possible leftover of the Hundred Years' War and of little relevance today, except maybe in the minds of people still rancuniers de toutes les traîtrises britanniques d'Azincourt à Waterloo, sans parler du Brexit (holding grudges for all British treacheries from Agincourt to Waterloo, not to mention the Brexit), people, that is, who still think of England and France as hereditary enemies forever, more than 200 years after Napoleon's demise.
(BTW, even French heralds know that un lion and un léopard are in heraldry terms essentially the same animal, differentiated only by head position and preferred stance.)
* un lion always has the head in profile and a full mane
** his normal attitude is rampant which need not be blazoned
** any other attitude must be
** if passant he is usually said léopardé, thus un lion léopardé is equivalent to a lion passant (but not guardant).
* un léopard is always seen full face, as if looking at you
** his normal attitude is passant which need not be blazoned
** any other attitude must be
** if rampant he is usually said lionné (spelt with -nn- in French), thus un léopard lionné is equivalent to a lion (rampant) guardant
* which gives the following equivalence table:
FrenchEnglish
un liona lion (rampant)
un lion léopardéa lion passant
un léopard lionnéa lion (rampant) guardant
un léoparda lion passant guardant
* Other attitudes known in French heraldry which I haven't noticed here (but maybe I paid too little attention):
** un lion issant (usually "de la partition" in a shield coupé or "de l'écu" when used as a crest) is quite frequent: it means a lion (rampant by default) with his hind half (and hind legs) hidden, so he is seen "coming out of" the partition or the shield respectively;
** un lion saltant ("jumping") is rarer, IIUC this means with three legs in the air, one hind leg lowered, as if just leaving some ground by jumping
** I haven't seen a lion sejant mentioned in French heraldry yet, but I suppose the contemporary French-heraldry word might be séant which is old-fashioned for "assis" (sitting). (Of course, heraldry talk is always old-fashioned, on both sides of la Manche).
-- Oh, and BTW, about the bottom-most remark (from 2009) just above the present subsection: why are lions so stylized? Why, most heraldic charges are stylized, and a lion with e.g. all the "calligraphic" flourishes in his tail is no exception; if you wanted to have a lion painted on your coat-of-arms as a recognizable portrait from a zoo, you might have to blazon that lion as un lion couché, au naturel or whatever is the English equivalent. ;-) A lion couchant proper maybe, if proper is indeed the English term for au naturel.
— Tonymec (talk) 04:33, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lion vs. leopard and English vs. French 

message: why is it included twice?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumirp (talk • contribs) 15:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  armenia 

message: Is there such a thing as a Lion Revenant? I was under the impression that was what you called a spirit lion like the following:
:File:Norwich City.svg
That is clearly deriving things from the Norwich Coat of Arms, but the lion is extremely stylised. I googled Lion Revenant and found that most references were to a Revenant Lion character in the game Ultima Online. 
I realise in French Lion Revenant just means 'Returning Lion'. Also, this is presumably an example of a Lion Passant. But I am sure I have seen it elsewhere and would appreciate anyone with more experience in this kind of thing to elucidate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.223.101.84 (talk) 07:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I would blazon the lion on that Norwich City Football Club coat of arms as just a lion passant guardant. Of course he is extremely stylized but I would attribute that to the draughtsman's freedom and not needing "special" blazoning. So let's guess: vert, a canary or resting on a football the same, in chief dexter a tower also or windowed sable over a lion passant guardant also or. Note that the tower and the lion passant guardant are taken (with a change of colours) from the arms of the city of Norwich (which has a castle with three towers instead of what we see here). — Tonymec (talk) 01:20, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spirit or Dead lions 

message: The lions couchant image gallery currently contains only one image, which does little to exemplify lions couchant.  I think a few additions could better display the range of variation among these.  To that end, I propose the following candidates for addition to the image gallery, under the subheading lions couchant. Please consider each individually and comment on each. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi, i am not against any of your canditates, but why not firstly my czech lion, it is for all country, yours are just for regions and it is one of the oldest coat of arms in Europe. Let's add them all.Jirka.h23 (talk) 19:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Due to an enormous multitude of drive-by additions of random lions to the gallery here and random eagles and double-headed eagles to galleries at those articles, it has become necessary to limit the image galleries to a few exemplary images and require editors to establish consensus on the talk pages before adding more images to these galleries.  Otherwise, these quickly become WP:INDISCRIMINATE collections of images.  I don't have any particular problem with the arms of the Czech Republic, but consensus to add it needs to be established first, so thank you for coming here to do that. At least it does show an example of a lion with a forked tail, which this gallery otherwise lacks. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 02:47, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image gallery 

message: I would like to suggest adding the Lion Contourné pose to the graphic examples given in the article. I was looking up information on the historic region of Courland in Wikipedia, and the article showed the File:Coat of arms of Kurzeme.svg in the header, which features a Lion Contourné (it says so in the description). However, I could not find a good explanation in Wikipedia of what precisely Contourné means - I had to do a search outside of Wikipedia to inform me of its precise meaning. I feel that, if Wikipedia is going to use a specific heraldic term in one or more of its articles, its description or definition ought to be included somewhere within Wikipedia. Not being very fluent in SVG graphics, I managed to convert the Lion Rampant image created by user Sodacan, flipping it to face to the right (sinister). However, my clumsy attempts are only an initial proof, not a final edit, I am sure. Here is what I created, and it can be used or altered freely: :File:Lion Contourné.svg 
This Contourné heraldic device is actually very important in certain historic references for various uses. For example, the Coat of Arms of Finland at one time originally was a Lion Contourné, indicating that it served as the part of the Swedish Kingdom that faced the threat from the East (i.e., Russia). When Russia annexed Finland, the Lion Contourné in the Finnish Coat of Arms was reversed to be a Lion Rampant, indicating that now Finland faced the threat to Russia from the West. It is also used in other coats of arms and flags, with similar meanings attached. 
Please, someone, could you place an example of a Lion Contourné in the article? I am afraid it is beyond my own skills to do so. Thank you. --Saukkomies talk  14:18, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Afaics, the lion contourné is is simply a mirrored lion, facing to the (heraldic) left. It may be enough to mention this in the text. Not sure if the "rampant" is implied, or if your example is properly a "lion rampant contourné". --dab (𒁳) 16:05, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Indeed, in French heraldry "contourné" always means mirrored, i.e. facing senestre rather than the usual dextre. A lion contourné often is created when arms are united in a party shield ("un écu parti") as a result of a marriage between two people, both of whose coats of arms feature lions: then the dextre partition will be mirrored so that both lions face each other. For a single lion contourné see e.g. the coat of arms of Balsièges (France) which is blazoned in French as de sinople au pont en dos d'âne d'une arche et deux demies d'argent maçonné de sable, mouvant des flancs, posé sur une rivière aussi d'argent, surmonté d'un lion couché contourné du même, accompagné, en chef à dextre, d'un roc d'échiquier aussi d'argent et, à senestre, d'un écusson cousu d'azur au chêne arraché d'or, de quatre branches passées en double sautoir, sommé, à dextre, d'une mitre du même et, à senestre, d'une tête de crosse épiscopale contournée aussi d'or. — Tonymec (talk) 04:37, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lion Contourné 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "The lion also carries Judeo-Christian symbolism. The Lion of Judah stands in the coat of arms of Jerusalem. Similar-looking lions can be found elsewhere, such as in the coat of arms of the Swedish royal House of Bjelbo, from there in turn derived into the coat of arms of Finland, formerly belonging to Sweden."
I would remove all mention of Sweden and Finland from the lede, this is about the heraldic device, not specific uses of it. And if that part is true, certainly the article on the Coat of Arms of Finland should make it clear, as currently that is not spelled out there. In fact, mention of the coa of Jerusalem is probably unneccessary too, just mention the lion of Judah, if even that has enough relevance to be mentioned in this particular article. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 23:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The latter part of the lede 

message: First sentence or so of the History section claims that heraldic symbols are a direct continuation from specifically Viking Animalism. It's 'sourced' with a pop-history/art book. The claim is substantial and doesn't seem in line with academic consensus. New, better and more legitimate sources are needed to substantiate such a claim or it should be removed. 86.5.160.43 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Same issue in thread below, trying to use a paragraph from a tertiary-source art book to credit Scythians with inventing Viking animal art (and by obvious extension the very closely related Celtic animal art of nearly the same style).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:53, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Continuation of Animalism" 

message: There's a bunch of mostly unsourced claims (I see someone added one citation, but it's to a tertiary work, which does not appear to even support the claims made), particularly crediting the Scythians with having basically invented Viking art with interwined animal figures (which is actually closely related to insular medieval Celtic art of this sort, itself a blend of a longer artistic traditions in Celtic material culture from Ireland through Eastern Europe, mixed with general European art styles which scribal monks would have been steeped in, in turn with influences from all across the Classical Eurasian world, but not overwhelmingly from Scythia in particular (and much of the Scythian style and motifs are traceable back much ealier to Urartu, Assyria, etc.).
There is no doubt that Scythians along with Persians and others in the Near East to Pontic region had their share of influences on European art motifs in general, and eastern Vikings even had extensive trade into the Middle East, but this cannot be WP:ORed into a claim of Scythian origin of animals in Viking art, and a particular style of rendering them that isn't even similar to Scythian works in the first place (not any more similar than it is to Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Arabic, Persian, etc.; it is more similar to all of western Eurasian art, of course, than it is to far Eastern Art, just as all the other categories of w. Eurasian art are more similar to each other than to E. Asian art, and all sorts of E. Asian are are more similar to each other than to any of w. Eurasian art).
This "Scythianism" is part of a quasi-academic, ahistorical, and pseudo-scientific "credit the Scythians and especially the Sarmatians with everything interesting in Northwest European tradition" putsch, including trying to equate various pre-Christian religio-mythological traditions with Sarmatian/Scythian ones, and even trying to pin virtually everything in the Arthurian legends on such an origin instead of on Welsh/British native culture commingled with Western and Central European romance traditions (which did have external influences, but not heavily Scythian ones). None of this appears to be taken very seriously by mainstream scholars, and is at very best an extremely minority viewpoint among academics. Ultimately, it is tied deeply to "British Israelitism" and other nonsense that (since the Early Medieval period) has been desperately trying to connect British and sometimes Scandinavian figures and themes of importance to Holy Land lineages and Biblical events. There's just no plausible evidentiary basis for this crap.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed this material  as unsourced (and unsourceable) generally, and in a specific instance improperly sourced. If someone wants to restore material like this, see WP:BURDEN, WP:EXCEPTIONAL, WP:FRINGE, and WP:DUE. This material is challenged, controversial, and an exceptional claim that requires exceptional sourcing.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Scythianism" fringe stuff 

message: The section about lions and leopards is highly confusing, probably because the term "leopard" has long fallen out of use in English heraldry. Since the distinction is still made in French heraldry, I thought it might be interesting to look at what the French Wikipedia has to say about it, even though I know that a Wikipedia article is no legitimate "source" (and therefore I didn't change the confusing English section).
There, it is very clearly said that a "leopard" is always guardant and a "lion" (as meant in French heraldry) never is, and that unless blazoned otherwise the "lion" is rampant and the "leopard" is passant. Lionné or léopardé means he has the attitude which is the default for the other beast. Hence the following correspondence between French and English blazon (with in parentheses what is understood if omitted):
* un lion (rampant) = a lion (rampant)
* un lion léopardé = a lion passant
* un léopard lionné = a lion (rampant) guardant
* un léopard (passant) = a lion passant guardant
Other attitudes (statant, sejant, couchant, etc.) must be blazoned explicitly in both languages.
For instance the arms of Normandy, which are very similar to those of England except that they have two beasts rather than three, are blazoned in French as De gueules aux deux léopards d'or armés et lampassés d'azur l'un sur l'autre; and the coat of arms of Belgium has deux léopards lionnés as supporters, which would be called in English two lions guardant. — Tonymec (talk) 04:32, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lions vs. leopards