Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 5

message: I believe the intent of this article is to communicate what actually happened in Srebrenica to those who are not fully informed. In conflict with that intent is the exceedingly poor writing in the first paragraph of this article which implicitly communicates to a native speaker of English that the writers of this article are not well educated in English and are too emotionally involved in the subject matter and therefore a first time reader is going to immediately question the legitimacy of what is otherwise one of the most informative accounts of the Srebrenica massacre that I have ever read. (If anyone has other accounts that they would like to recommend, please do.)
So... how about if we work on the introduction. 
The Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of up to an estimated 8,106 Bosniak males, ranging in age from babies to the elderly, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by a Serb Army of Republika Srpska under general Ratko Mladić including Serbian state special forces "Scorpions".[1] [2] [3] [4] The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II and considered by many as one of the most horrific events in recent European history.[5] It is also the first legally established case of genocide in Europe after the Holocaust.[6]
Refering to those who committed the mass murder as "a Serb Army of RS" is clearly stating that RS had more than one army and therefore only one of the armies committed the mass murder while the others did not. RS did not have more than one army. Why not just "the Bosnian Serb Army"?
"of up to an estimated 8,106" is a strange way of saying something. Using an exact number 8,106 conveys that it is well documented and exact. "Estimated" is stating that it is not exact. I think an editor used "estimated" to convey that there may have been more than 8,106 killed. "Of up to an" does not work well. 
Using the word "babies" conveys emotionalism and an attempt to win someone over through rhetoric. "Infants" might be a better way of communicating the truth of what happened without making the first time reader question the objectivity of the writer. If one reads "babies" in the very first sentence, the reader may then believe that the writer is quite eager to communicate that those people murdered babies. Indeed, they did, and that can be communicated quite clearly while not creating questions as to the objectivity of the writer. Describing an horrific heartrending event with systematic methodical accuracy is far more effective than vitriol. "The majority of those killed were males ranging from ages of 16 to 55 (?) while the rest of the male victims included infants, children, and the elderly."
"under general Ratko Mladić including Serbian state special forces "Scorpions" " is trying to say too much at once and saying it poorly. Rather, "under the command of General Ratko Mladic. In addition to the Bosnian Serb Army, special forces from Serbia known as the "Scorpions" participated in the massacre." (General as a title is capitalized.)
"considered by many" is clearly weasle language. Could there be a better way to communicate the horror of what happened? "It is also the first legally established case" makes what follows an add-on -- and this also happened -- which makes it less important than what preceded it yet the verdict is the most compelling evidence one has to communicate the horror of what happened: genocide. Here is where one is letting his or her emotions get in the way of what they want to communicate. It was horrible. The facts alone will communicate that. While the use of the word "horrific" is I believe legitimate, the editors need to find a better way of communicating if the goal is to communicate effectively with the millions of people on this planet who don't really know what happened and don't know who to believe. The best way to establish credibility and communicate the horror of what happened is not by saying "horrific" but by conveying the facts. 
Lastly, I am new to wikipedia and realize now that I probably should have entered this at the bottom of the contents list not the top. My apologies if that is the case.
--62.194.75.163 02:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: I would hate to see another round of edit wars again.  Oldadamml, regarding your last edit, I would ask you to consider your position towards adding material from a court case that is still under way i.e. Naser Oric.  I will remind you that in the article Bosnian Genocide you absolutely refused to add any insinuation that people who are indicted for genocide i.e. Karadzic, Mladic and Milosevic were responsible for crimes that were committed.  You even refused to admit that crimes did happen and that people died (by adding “may” or “might”).  On the other hand in this article you are pushing the POV in the Background section of the article to say that based on Morillion’s statement certain crimes by Naser Oric unequivocally happened (while bodies are still not found and no other evidence is presented).  Again I do not wish to excuse Oric (as the person realistically has committed a certain level of crimes which are still to be determined), but simply to ask you to follow the same logic that you are using at other articles for the Serb side.  Otherwise, we can revisit those articles as well.--Dado 14:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits after 28 July 2005

message: Genocide in Srebrenica
In 1996, the International Criminal Tribunal indicted Mladic and Krstic for crimes of humanity committed at Srebrenica. Joining them on the list of indicted war-criminals was Radovan Karadzic, leader of the self-styled "Republika Srpska" or Serb-controlled territories in Bosnia. Karadzic was intimately involved in planning the "endgame" in the Bosnian war, for which Srebrenica was to serve as a centerpiece. In July 1999, the Tribunal found that these mass murderers had been operating under "a direct chain of military command" from Belgrade and the Serbian President, Slobodan Milosevic. For the first time, the Tribunal defined the Bosnian war as "an international conflict," recognizing both Bosnian independence and Serbian aggression . As yet, however, Milosevic remains unindicted for the atrocities he directed in Bosnia.
The United Nations must shoulder a large share of responsibility for allowing the massacre to take place under the noses of its troops. In November 1999, the UN released a highly self-critical report on its performance, stating that "Through error, misjudgment and the inability to recognize the scope of evil confronting us, we failed to do our part to save the people of Srebrenica from the Serb campaign of mass murder." (See Barbara Crossette, "U.N. Details Its Failure to Stop '95 Bosnian Massacre", The New York Times, November 16 1999.)
:Can you explain us what term "aggresion" means in this case? Serbs lived there for over centuries and were separated by communist's division od former Yugoslavia to the republics that never existed before nor had boundaries they have today. I preffer term civil war rather than agression. Theodosias 21:11, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
:::You prefer? Well, the judgement is not based on preferring, but the facts! Do you want me to put here US resolution, about the Serbian role in aggression?Emir Arven 22:21, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbian aggression 

message: You gave case numbers and probably 300,000 pages. I knew where I can find it. I read first 20 pages of Erdemovic case (which is the link you provided) and didn't find anything which is opposite of UN general Morrillon's evidence. I envite you to give exact link and information as I did.--Oldadamml 10:13, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: First, so called Morrillon's evidence is not placed in the judgement (findings the fact). Probably it was not relevant. The judges decided that, not me.Emir Arven 10:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Morrillion testified in ICTY. But his statement was not considered as relevat, cause only relevant statements find their place in the Judgement (Findings the fact). So, judges decided, that his statement was not important or relevant. But you want to put it the article. Why? Beacuse, you are the one who wants to minimize the genocide.Emir Arven 13:10, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is called Serbian aggression. I gave the link, but u didnt read.Emir Arven 10:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Article in the talk page is called that why, because there is an interesting part: In July 1999, the Tribunal found that these mass murderers had been operating under "a direct chain of military command" from Belgrade and the Serbian President, Slobodan Milosevic. For the first time, the Tribunal defined the Bosnian war as "an international conflict," recognizing both Bosnian independence and Serbian aggression. As yet, however, Milosevic remains unindicted for the atrocities he directed in Bosnia.Emir Arven 13:10, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Slobodan Milosevic trial is not finished. Can you provide more information then some souspicious article that ICTY find "a direct chain of military command" from Belgrade and the Serbian President, Slobodan Milosevic. Also, if you find it is no still information about army of Republic of Serbia involvment. --Oldadamml 14:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I will put every time if u try to make fun of genocide. There are also other wikipedians who will read the judgement.Emir Arven 10:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Plz, read it again. And dont say that the whole world is against Serbs, and that ICTY is inquisition. I will put parts of the "Findings the facts", like Reburial in the article.Emir Arven 10:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

text: There are many judgements, and I will try, to put the most interesting parts here.Emir Arven 13:10, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits after 28. jul 2005. again 

message: The Hague/SENSE
The prosecutor claims the killers were members of the Skorpioni unit, a paramilitary group linked with the Serbian MUP (Ministry of Interior). Their base was in Djeletovci, in Baranja. Police general Obrad Stevanovic, Milosevic's defense witness, saw them there in 1995 on several occasions.
Republika Srpska MUP documents seized by the prosecution show that in late June 1995, the Skorpioni took part in the fighting in Bosnia-Herzegovina, together with some other units of the Serbian MUP and local police. The video footage shows their trip from Djeletovci, via Pale, to the command in Trnovo and the front line on the Treskavica mountain. According to the prosecutor, in the second half of July, the Skorpioni moved to the Srebrenica area and participated in the massacre of Bosniak prisoners of war.
The prosecutor claims that this group could not have entered Bosnia-Herzegovina from Serbia without the "complicity of those who controlled the border area". In his view, General Stevanovic "had to have known about it," because at that time he was in charge of security in the border area there. General Stevanovic denies the allegations. He claims there were no links between the Skorpioni and the Serbian MUP. Milosevic's defense witness "absolutely" rules out the possibility that the Skorpioni could have been under the control of the Public Security Sector in the Serbian MUP, where he was an official at the time. As for the State Security Sector, he says he has "no knowledge of that."
----
As it is written here, engagement of "Skorpioni unit" is under Milosevic trial. Trial is not finished, so we cannot include prosecutor's opion because by the law we don't know who have right - Milosevic or prosecutor. --Oldadamml 10:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dont say that. Aren't you ashamed? You switched two parts from two different thematical parts. And you skipped the most important part: The Mass Executions! This is really, really sad. When I put it in the article, you removed it. Do you have any conscience?!! I dont think so! Now, you are trying to destroy the structure of the article, cause it is based on thematical parts, not hronology, cause mass executions took place in the different parts of the country.Emir Arven 17:21, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no The Mass Executions part in Krstic judgment (and appeal). See []. It seems that you use different judgment. --Oldadamml 06:55, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ouh, I find it now, there are those paragraphs, but not with that name. It is in the other part of article I didn't pay attention. Anyway, in the ICTY judgment there are unconsistences as long as I see. Becose the column of Bosniak Muslim men LEFT the Potocari before Serbs did the separation of males and females in Potocari, but in the ICTY judgment first is mention about separation and later column of men. See it yourself. --Oldadamml 07:10, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

text: First link you provided is Croatian loby in America and it is heavily disputed. Once more, Slobodan Milosevic claimed that they  weren't Serbian state unit until 1999. The documents you presented show it also. --Oldadamml 06:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are wrong! Scorpions were just mobilized once more in 1999. to do war crimes in Kosovo as they did in Srebrenica. Before that, they were reserve unit of the anti-terrorist forces of the Serbian Ministry of Interior, because you cannot mobilize someone who is not in reserve unit. This is also very important: Cvjetan was sentenced by a Serbian court to 20 years in prison for the execution of 14 Albanian civilians in the northern Kosovo town of Podujevo during the 1999 conflict. During that trial, the court also heard testimony that the unit had been involved in the Srebrenica massacre.Emir Arven 08:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Scorpions from Serbia

message: The Scorpions are from Serbia, and noone denies that. The question is, were they under Milosevic's    controll or not? According to the official indictment by Belgrade's court, the Scorpions were mobilized in March 1999 as a “reserve unit of the anti-terrorist forces of the Serbian Ministry of Interior.”Read the article:
Who were Scorpions?
While the perpetrators and the victims of the crime shown on the tape have been identified, it remains unclear under whose command the unit was in July 1995. The ICTY prosecution wants to prove that it was receiving orders from the Serbian interior ministry, which would for the first time establish a clear link between Milosevic and the crimes committed in Bosnia.
Obrad Stevanovic, a former police general and senior official of Serbia’s interior ministry during whose testimony at the ICTY the footage was shown, rejected charges of involvement. He said the Scorpions were not part of the official Serbian security forces operating in the border region between Bosnia and Serbia at the time.
Some answers may come from a new trial set to start in Belgrade on 6 June. The defendant, a member of the Scorpions called Sasa Cvjetan, stands accused of atrocities in Kosovo in 1999. According to the official indictment, the Scorpions were mobilized in March 1999 as a “reserve unit of the anti-terrorist forces of the Serbian Ministry of Interior.”
Cvjetan was sentenced by a Serbian court to 20 years in prison for the execution of 14 Albanian civilians in the northern Kosovo town of Podujevo during the 1999 conflict. During that trial, the court also heard testimony that the unit had been involved in the Srebrenica massacre.
The Supreme Court lifted the sentence for procedural reasons and ordered a new trial, which has now assumed new poignancy.
The tape was given to the ICTY prosecution by Natasa Kandic, a prominent Serbian human-rights lawyer who has consistently called on Serbs to face up to the truth about the wars that tore Yugoslavia apart during the 1990s. One of the people who cooperated with her – reportedly a former member of the unit – is understood to have sought protection abroad.
:::First link you provided is Croatian loby in America and it is heavily disputed. Once more, Slobodan Milosevic claimed that they  weren't Serbian state unit until 1999. The documents you presented show it also. --Oldadamml 06:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are wrong! Scorpions were just mobilized once more in 1999. to do war crimes in Kosovo as they did in Srebrenica. Before that, they were reserve unit of the anti-terrorist forces of the Serbian Ministry of Interior, because you cannot mobilize someone who is not in reserve unit. This is also very important: Cvjetan was sentenced by a Serbian court to 20 years in prison for the execution of 14 Albanian civilians in the northern Kosovo town of Podujevo during the 1999 conflict. During that trial, the court also heard testimony that the unit had been involved in the Srebrenica massacre.Emir Arven 08:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Scorpions are from Serbia

message: This another round of discussions is again becoming absurdly long and I cannot understand what the issue is.  I don't see what else is left here to negotiate.  If there is anything wrong with the article please correct it and use the discussion page efficiently and when necessary as it is becoming unusable for other users.  At some point when the article is finalized I will start translating it for into Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian languages for respective Wikipedia's.  Let's get this over with.  Thanks --Dado 18:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to finalize discussion 

message: It's clear that the article you wrote is biased. I did some minor changes and you can find facts either at this disscusion page or at my talk page. I'll write a completely new article as I promised, but I have very little time to do that in these days... I think that naming that part of article "revisionism" is not appropriate because it's not just Serbs who doubt in ITCY and Bosniak side of the story.Theodosias 12:02, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
:Your changes are not minor. You added that "many independent international groups espouse denial of massacre," for which I'd like to see some evidence, you talk about the list of 3000 victims of Oric which is (as I understand it) not quite accepted, you removed "The Bosnian Serb side has, under the heavy authority of Governor Ashdown, officially admitted the number of killed Muslims and expressed regrets for the massacre in 2004" which seems to be a plain fact, and your removals make it unclear what "All nations and international organizations involved consider it to have been a massacre, and most consider it to be a case of genocide." refers to. I do agree that it is better to use a more neutral formulation than "revisionism" in the article. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:36, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisionism/Alternate view section 

message: Can someone (whoever added this) clarify "Citation needed"  note that was added after the Morillion's statement in section that talks about how Srebrenica was declared the Safe zone.  Thanks --Dado 23:37, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this section mentions a UN Security Council resolution but no reference to source is given. Is this a direct quote from the resolution or editor's interpretation ? Ktoto 00:37, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Fixed. Ktoto 06:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text editing question 

message: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050728&articleId=750
--Oldadamml 06:44, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Canadian article about Srebrenica 

message: What is this sentence supposed to mean please:
:"Paddy Ashdown relieved and replaced the examining commission of Republika Srpska which reported that the initial explanation was correct."
What was the "examining commission" and what was this "initial explanation" ? It's not clear at all. Also a reference to a source would be helpful here. Ktoto 08:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western bias 

message: About ISSA article link. Just at the first glance here are the problematic issues about the article: 
* The article calls the war in Bosnia a “civil war” which is either a beginner’s mistake or a concerted effort to disassociate involvement of Serbia in the conflict.  In either case it is one sided and biased.
* It denies the massacre by stating “What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs” and goes on to explain that ridiculous statement.  While attacks on both sides did happen so did the massacre.  
* It gives bits an pieces of information usually one-sided and probably out of context.
* It barrages unclear, unproven or unrelated statements about islamists and Al-Quaida connections leaving readers to make paranoid conclusions.
* Points our moral equivalencies such as killing of Serbs while not providing any proof of that or playing with numbers
* It further plays with numbers as a weird-out mathematician using unparallel and incompatible sources.
One article (“Srebrenica Research Group”) is already included in the text.  Both are simply pushing the POV with already sensitive topic while politically playing to a crowd that is looking for meaning and closure.  It serves only to promote the political or other private interests of those who write this garbage.--Dado 14:27, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  About links 

message: In our article is written: 
"the policies of aggression and ethnic cleansing as implemented by Serb forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1992 and 1995 with the direct support of authorities in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) ultimately led to the displacement of more than 2,000,000 people, an estimated 200,000 killed, tens of thousands raped or otherwise tortured and abused, and the innocent civilians of Sarajevo and other urban centers repeatedly subjected to shelling and sniper attacks; meet the terms defining the crime of genocide in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, created in Paris on December 9, 1948, and entered into force on Janua--Dado 03:10, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this the trial in front of the court which dismissed case of Yugoslavia vs NATO on the grounds that Yugoslavia was not a UN member, yet later accepted case of B&H vs Yugoslavia on the grounds that Yugoslavia was a UN member? Don't know for Goran, I doubt that I'll go nuts, but I may die of laughing. Nikola 21:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Falsification of the US resolution 199''' 

message: Warning to 210.124.188.139.  You will be sanctioned if you continue vandalising the article.--Dado 04:09, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Talking about vandalism (or censorship?) in case of this article, what was wrong with that short note related to Erdemovic's nationality and interesting military record, which you had erased so promptly few days ago?
First, there is no proof that Erdemovic is in fact Croat (unless you can present one).  Also is there verifiable proof that he was part of the military units that you are claiming.  Besides all that it is irrelevant to point out his nationality.  Nationalities of Karadzic and Mladic are not pointed out either (although they are quite clear I will admit).  The only purpose I see is to support the legends that conspiracy theorists are revolving around the issues of revisionism and denial.  Or perhaps for some it is a code to signify that since one person is of different nationality that makes him not credible. In either case it brings no quality to the article--Dado 18:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism