Talk:Industrial music/Archive 1

message: Power noise tracks are typically structured and danceable, but are known to be occasionally abstract.
Who wrote that? Whoever it was, could you please tell me what abstract means in context of music. The Abstract music article didn't help much. I also believe that there is a genre called Abstract hip-hop, what's that? Is the word used just as an adjective here or what? To me, all music seems abstract. Very good article though. -- 80.186.144.210
: What is meant is "abstract in structure" -- as in, less structure and no beat.  This could probably be worded more clearly. neckro 04:27, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abstract music. 

message: I haven't heard of half-of these sub-genres, although I do understand that fans tend to over categorize their music as they have a need to differeniate themselves from everyone else.  Anyways, Wumpscut shoudlnt be 2nd wave...he didnt even start putting out albums until the mid 90's.  And how the hell can you call My Life with the Thrill Kill Kult agro-industrial?  What is agro about them?  What is agro anyways?  I've never even heard of it.  -miles
I'm attempting to restructure this talk page, in the hopes of making it more readable. I've changed a few header titles, and attributed a few comments. Otherwise, the text is unchanged. I've also added the Template:Reorganizing to the main article, which I think is appropriate given the current state of flux. 
The 'Proposed Rewrite' topic is where I'd like to draw your attention -- if we can agree on a new structure for the entry, we can begin a rewrite. Twiin 08:00, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Too many sub-genres

message: Harsh IDM isn't industrial, it's IDM. Any objections to removing this? I can understand industrial being mentioned as an influence to IDM, but it doesn't really belong on the definition of industrial itself, perhaps on the definition of IDM. Sanctum
:Responses to above, feel free to restore any text (especially additions and expansions on Throbbing Gristle, NON etc), just don't delete whole sections without discussion here.   If we do agree to remove it from the article after discussion, then unless it is entirely inaccurate (not just out of context) it should be incorporated into a new article or into an existing article, rather than being deleted entirely.   Lastly, please sign your posts on the Talk page here using four tildes in a row like this ~~~~, so we know who wrote them, it expands into a user name and timestamp.  Thanks --Lexor|Talk
::Thanks Sanctum 02:19, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I went ahead and restored most of your edits already now, and have more clearly separate out industrial from industrial-inspired acts/subgenres. --Lexor|Talk 02:39, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Technoid

message: ====Philosophy and Origins====
* Luigi Russolo (and The Art of Noise), Pierre Schaeffer (and Musique Concrète)
====1st Wave (70s to 80s - Industrial Records Era)====
* Noise/Shock (Boyd Rice/NON, Monte Cazazza, Nurse With Wound, )
* Avant-Garde/Experimental (Einstürzende Neubauten, Throbbing Gristle, William S. Burroughs, Current 93) - Was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the 70s
* Synth/Dance (Cabaret Voltaire, SPK, Severed Heads)
====2nd Wave (80s to 90s - Wax Trax Era)====
* Industrial Dance / Body Music (Skinny Puppy, Front 242, Nitzer Ebb, Die Krupps) - Was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the 80s
* Industrial Rock (NIN, Gravity Kills, Econoline Crush) - Not currently considered 'industrial' by the scene due to perceived pop influences, but were once commonplace acts in industrial compilations and magazines
* Industrial Metal (Pigface, KMFDM, Ministry, Godflesh, Revolting Cocks, My Life With the Thrill Kill Kult, Cubanate) - Punk Rock ethic, etc. Was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the early 90s in North America
* Coldwave (Chemlab, 16 Volt, Hate Dept)
* Electro-Industrial (Numb, Front Line Assembly, Haujobb, :Wumpscut:) - Now often called 'Elektro', Was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the mid/late 90s in North America
* Dark Ambient/Industrial (Deutsch Nepal, Cold Meat Industries)
* Power Electronics (Grey Wolves, Masonna, Merzbow, Whitehouse)
* Death Industrial (Brighter Death Now, Dissecting Table, In Slaughter Natives)
====3rd Wave (90s to 00s - Ant-Zen Era)====
* Power/Rhythmic Noise (Winterkälte, Imminent Starvation, Converter) - Militant, harsh, stark.
* Post-Industrial (Gridlock, Somatic Responses, Black Lung, Orphx, Tarmvred) - Homemade gear, 8-bit/found sounds, marked difference in sound between albums
* Industrial Techno (Punch Inc., Pow[d]er Pussy, Mimetic) 
* Drum n Noise (End, Enduser, Hecate)
====Summary====
We should also mention the current incarnation of EBM (Covenant / VNV Nation) as having industrial influences and often getting airtime in industrial clubs, but not widely considered 'industrial music' per se. Perhaps the same mention for Apocalyptic/Neo-folk in Europe. Perhaps a section for cities known for a certain type of industrial sound/bands, like Chicago, San Francisco, Vancouver, etc?
I've almost certainly left genres/artists out which I will remember immediately upon being reminded of them. Thoughts? Twiin 04:19, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Twiin's Proposed Structure (In Progress)

message: We should also mention the current incarnation of EBM (Covenant / VNV Nation) as having industrial influences and often getting airtime in industrial clubs, but not widely considered 'industrial music' per se. Perhaps the same mention for Apocalyptic/Neo-folk in Europe. Perhaps a section for cities known for a certain type of industrial sound/bands, like Chicago, San Francisco, Vancouver, etc?
I've almost certainly left genres/artists out which I will remember immediately upon being reminded of them. Thoughts? Twiin 04:19, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary

message: To represent all opinions fairly, let's stick to this wave idea. The first wave will be about purely industrial music (it will be the first wave because it came first, fair enough?). The second wave can have all the artists that happened to be at some distant point be influenced by skinny puppy and you DJs insist on calling industrial because it makes trendy assholes feel hip at all the indsutrial clubs. I know I'm being stubborn, but you aren't giving me any leeway either. Let's just agree to have two waves to represent both views, state that some people consider the second wave industrial while others do not, and call it a compromise. Sanctum 06:17, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As this conversation goes on, I'm having an increasingly difficult time believing we can work together on this, when you're throwing snide comments about my motivations for playing music for 'assholes'. I think it might be best if we call in outside arbitration to solve this. Twiin 06:24, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid you are going to have to resolve this conflict with me. There are many people like me, that feel the music you consider industrial is not industrial. I'm not proposing to ignore what you consider industrial, so I don't think it fair that you feel entitled to ignore all the people who do not consider it to be industrial. We can make an unbiased distinction. Work it out.Sanctum 06:30, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm more than happy to continue this outside this entry, on your talk page. I'll see you there. Twiin 06:37, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Clear Division between "first wave" and "second wave"

message: In other news, after extensive research (including the Boyd Rice website), I am unable to locate any mention of Boyd Rice releasing anything prior to the self-published Black Album in 1977. In 1977, of course, Throbbing Gristle also released their first album. I'll gladly revert the edits if evidence is shown to the contrary, but I'm rewriting the Boyd-Rice-as-progenitor mention in the interim. While it's possible NON may have been making music in 73, if it wasn't released for four years it certainly couldn't have been 'the first wave' of industrial music. Twiin 04:19, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: he started making music, and had performances (in which he sent audiences fleeing in terror, or so the rumor goes) before he ever released the black album.Sanctum 05:54, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Boyd Rice / NON

message: After some discussion on Sanctum's talk page, I think Sanctum and I have found a compromise on the outline structure. We can move the Death Industrial and Dark Industrial sections to the 1st wave, with a note saying that there are a number of people who consider anything past 1st wave to not be 'industrial' per se.
With that said, i'd very much like to hear comments on the rest of the outline from everyone else, instead of expending so much energy on this one point. Twiin 08:00, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good start to me.  I'm not as much of expert on industrial music as either of two of you, but I'm interested in keeping the format consistent with and similar in tone/style with other music genres articles particularly electronic music articles.   (Minor stylistic niggle: don't forget to lowercase your heading names (Manual of Style), i.e. "Industrial Records" should be uppercase [a proper noun phrase], but "era" should be lowercase). --Lexor|Talk 08:45, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything is fine the way it is. Death industrial, powernoise, and dark industrial are already listed there, and someone already wrote a note that was unbiased. Sanctum 22:13, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As mentioned by others, the entry looks like it's written by commitee, and isn't fine the way it is. Industrial Rock is listed twice, a number of bands/labels are in multiple sections -- hence the need to clean it up. Twiin 22:56, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Lexor, I'll be sure to do my best keep the formatting and style consistent with the other electronic music genre articles, and I'd very much appreciate your input and assistance with this, once we start reworking the article itself. Twiin 22:56, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Current Status

message: I'm strongly against this new introduction as it is filled with errors. You're calling NIN and KMFDM industrial, and that is flat-out wrong. I have to draw the line somewhere, and it'll be here. It's not fun having to compromise with someone who is clueless about industrial music but insists on having his opinion heard. These changes were not at all discussed, and I request they be removed. Sanctum 04:05, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, Sanctum, there are no personal attacks on Wikipedia.  We are all here to write good articles, and there are many different points of view.  Calling somebody clueless doesn't help.  Focus on content, not the contributor.  It would be best if you could post a version of the introduction that you would prefer with here on this Talk page, then we can all come to a compromise version.  It's better to describe specific content that you object to than to describe something as "riddled with errors", and even better to propose a constructive change. Cheers --Lexor|Talk 09:51, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Look, Sanctum -- attacking me is not the way to make a better entry. Are you willing to agree to mediation to help find middle ground on this? Twiin 16:48, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: New Introduction

message: I fixed a glaring contradiction in the preface to the first wave of industrial where it stated that the genre had mostly died off and that many bands are still actively producing music.
I also erased the sentence about purism, it didn't seem relevant. To be consistent, I think the second wave should have a preface as well. Twiin should write it, but please remember to mention that some consider the second wave to be music influenced by industrial, but in no way industrial itself. Sanctum 18:11, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Preface to Second Wave

message: "It should be mentioned that there is much disagreement within the industrial scene as to the current state of industrial, to the extent that some (including artists mentioned on this page) are of the belief that there is no "current state of industrial", and that industrial music ended with the demise of Throbbing Gristle and Industrial Records. Thus, the subgenre outlines that follow are by no means definitive, and indeed are often a point of contention between fans of the music."
I have never encountered anyone of the opinion that only bands signed to industrial records are industrial. Throbbing Gristle did tour somewhat recently, although it was supposedly going to be their last. Industrial records still exists:
http://www.brainwashed.com/tg/industrial.html
So that bit about the demise of Throbbing Gristle and Industrial Records is incorrect.
I'd like to remove this paragraph if Twiin is willing to mention the disagreement over industrial in his preface to the second wave. Sanctum 18:17, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: What's this?