Talk:Samuel Daniel

message: The problems with this article are numerous, and it should at least receive some kind of warning for inaccuracy or stub until it is revised.
Starting with the division into Early and Later Life, the article lacks structure. More problematically, its style is colloquial ("not Shakespeare's Avon" - WTF), and it presents pure conjecture as fact ("Shakespeare was one of the friends allowed to visit him" ! where does that come from?). Moreover, it cites and quotes from other works without giving due reference. Who is "Fuller"? Where does Coleridge praise Daniel?
All this - I guess - is due to the material taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica, but since it also incorporates up-to-date references, and does never warn (i.e., "Hugh, writing in 1911 thought that, ..."), this article is hardly usable at all. Someone with knowledge on Daniel should revise this. Meanwhile, I've added a link to the better material on poetryfoundation.com biography. grovel (talk) 13:59, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article in serious need of revision (2012)

message: I have completely rewritten this article on Samuel Daniel, as the prior one was incomplete and inaccurate. I hope that no one minds, but if anyone is missing something that was in the prior article, let me know and I will try to put it back. I kept a copy of the article as it existed before I started editing it. In any case, please do feel free to offer me feedback on the article and suggestions for changes/corrections. Or feel free to just go make revisions yourself. This is my first time writing a Wikipedia article, so I am very open to feedback. Musophilus (talk) 20:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Really nice job! HoneyWest4 (talk) 13:46, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Musophilus (talk) 23:43, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing Wikipedia Article on Samuel Daniel (2021) 

message: As becomes clear in the article, there is an interesting and complex relationship between Daniel's works and his publications. The main article, I believe, presents the correct frame, that is, listing and describing the works. However, in case, either here or in a future article, the publications should need more elucidation, below are all the publications through 1623 that I found at Internet Archive. Obviously, this list is very partial. I intended to supplement these with Google Books, but found no additional books there. Phil wink (talk) 03:53, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  In addition to the items posted above, the list included at The Online Books Page, which is linked in the External Links list in the article, includes alternate copies of facsimiles of some of the items in the list (especially those available at Penn) and a number of HTML versions available at EEBO TCP.Musophilus (talk) 12:06, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  PDFs of Samuel Daniel's publications though 1623 

message: I am confused by your change to the lead section, especially the aspect that ends up leaving brackets around [the sixteenth]. First off, I had put in the year and title of the C.S.Lewis book for a number of reasons. Stylistically, I thought that the opening section flowed better by putting something in between the names "Samuel Taylor Coleridge and William Wordsworth" and "C.S. Lewis", so that it looked less like a list of the three of them together. If one is reading quickly, in the current version I believe it does come across as one continuous list. Additionally, I wanted to make clear that the Lewis quote was from the 20th century (not everyone knows who Lewis is and for those who do, not everyone knows when he wrote) and to make clear that the quote came from a book of criticism on English Literature. Many people do not know that Lewis wrote literary criticism and they associate him, of course, mostly with his fantasy series. In any case, those are stylistic issues and if you believe that taking the title and year out make the lead section more user friendly or more conforming to WP guidelines, I'm happy to let that stand.
More importantly, I do not think it is correct to show the sentence as you have shown it: C.S. Lewis called Daniel "the most interesting man of letters whom [the sixteenth] century produced in England." The actual original quote from Lewis is: "the most interesting man of letters whom that century produced in England." If we do not put back the title of the book, which makes clear that he is referring to the sixteenth century, then I think the sentence should read using one of the choices below:
* C.S. Lewis called Daniel "the most interesting man of letters whom that [the sixteenth] century produced in England."
* C.S. Lewis called Daniel "the most interesting man of letters whom" the sixteenth "century produced in England."
As the concluding sentence of the lead paragraph, I see this as a fairly important sentence. So I would like to leave it as clear and uncluttered as possible. My preference is to put back the name of the book (and year) and leave it as it was. If that is considered awkward for some reason, my next favorite choice is the second one I've shown above. Although a bit cluttered with extra quotation marks, it does not include the brackets that look quite awkward to me and I think are daunting to the average reader, almost warning them that this is going to be a complicated, obscure, and obtuse article (which, unfortunately by necessity, in some ways it is).
Thoughts?
: Looks like we're approaching this from different perspectives; I understand your arguments, but they're not especially persuasive to me, and I expect the reverse will be true. If that's the case (barring third party input, which I don't expect), then I'd defer to you as the expert and by far chief contributor.
: Regarding my  edit: at that time, the sentence included "the sixteenth" without any indication of editorial intervention, so it constituted a misquote that shouldn't stand. But what should stand?
:# I removed the source information because, in a very brief and high-level intro, I found it strange to spend 8% of the text on bibliographic information of a book not written by the article's subject. The quote is valuable, as showing notability; I felt that foregrounding a specific book that will be unknown and unimportant to most readers would not burnish that notability. Then (we both agree) if that deletion is made, the quote itself needs intervention.
:# My chosen intervention -- replacing "that" with "[the sixteenth]" -- seems so natural to me, it's hard to know what argument to make for it. As a reader, the second choice above -- splitting the quote in 2 -- makes this simple sentence somewhat difficult to parse on the first go-through, and makes me wonder what the hell was going on with the original quote. Like, is this hiding the fact the Lewis actually wrote "...whom that talentless and boring century produced..."? The first choice above -- supplementing "that" rather than replacing it -- is at least easily comprehensible; but once an intervention is decided, I just don't see a point in keeping "that" which renders the resulting sentence needlessly more complex. Also, in my experience, it is simply standard practice in cases like this to replace rather than supplement. Indeed WP:Manual of Style#Original wording backs me up here with an example that is exactly congruent. Now, there's a limit to how much I can lean on the MOS, because this is given as an example of good practice, not as an exclusive method of practice.
: I fear my argument cleaves pretty close to "what you did is weird, and what I did is normal", which is a bit ungenerous and which, if you knew me better, you'd find risible on its face. But there it is. I'll leave the decision up to you. Don't worry; I'm not an edit warrior. Cheers. Phil wink (talk) 14:06, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a look and see what you think of my latest version. To me it is the most readable and is not technically wrong, although the second half of the sentence is much closer to a quote than a paraphrase. I like the way it emphasizes the aspect of the quote that I am really referring to. If you're uncomfortable with the second half being so close to a quote but not including quotation marks, I'll turn it into a paraphrase. I actually started doign that, but I really liked Lewis's wording.Musophilus (talk) 17:45, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brackets around [the sixteenth] 

message: Currently, the Works section seems pretty inclusive, but I notice it does not include The Vision of the Twelve Goddesses or Tethys' Festival, which to me seem notable enough to list, especially since they are pieces that were actually produced. NB: they both in fact already have WP entries, which I've now linked. Phil wink (talk) 18:04, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for catching that. I was hesitant to make the list any longer, but I agree with your assessment.Musophilus (talk) 18:38, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Masques