Talk:List of The Closer episodes

message: I just finished making a sizeable number changes to writers and directors for Season 1, and a fair number to Season 2.  Episode order is now correct for S1 as well (two were in reverse order originally.)  Most appear to be errors made because editors used the IMDB rather than the broadcast or DVD as sources.  The tables are all accurate now (barring a few stray errors), with credits drawn from the DVD's (S1/2) and original broadcasts (S3).  
A couple notes: 
-- Several episodes have writing credits as Story by and Teleplay by This indicates the person credited as writer on our table wrote the script, but another writer developed the story versus written by where the writer also developed the story.  Mike Bercham has several credits like this, basing stories on his own experiences as an LAPD Homicide Detective (see Ruby, for example.)  In these cases, I've added Story by: (Name) to the beginning of the episode summary, and will add a note by the writer's name indicating they wrote the teleplay only.
-- Use of ampersand (&) versus and (and) varies in the show's screen credits.  All credits have been corrected accordingly.  Baldwin & Coveny usually write in this order, and are credited with the ampersand, but have occasionally written as Coveny and Baldwin, credited with 'and'.  The use of one versus the other generally indicates different degrees of collaboration, but I'm unsure just how each author's contribution is weighted in such cases.
-- I've removed the colored bar between the episode title/credits and summary. I found this enhanced readability and reduced clutter a bit.  With the fourth season due to go into production soon (the first episode should go out for casting in about two weeks, meaning we'll have a title) the article is getting long and the tables needed a bit of tightening up. Drmargi (talk) 19:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table accuracy 

message: Episode titles for Season Four will be added to the table every 10 working days, roughly.  These come from open casting calls widely available on the web.  I'm going to remove the request for individual cites and provide a note to serve as a general citation for all titles.  I've also restored the full table.  The table cells aren't empty: they provide production numbers and airdates.  This is commonly done when a new season starts.  --Drmargi (talk) 15:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've replied at Talk:List of Burn Notice episodes. Thanks! Matthew (talk) 16:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for adding a source, Doc. However, the source you provided doesn't list the title for episode one. Further problematic is the episode synopses; where are you sourcing them from? I'm assuming that the website (Showfax) has further information for subscribers (like the title for episode one, for example). Can you confirm this as I'm not a subscriber. Matthew (talk) 13:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Great stuff! Does the same apply for Burn Notice too? Those episodes were removed because they lacked a source. It seems like they can be re-added now though (citing Showfax). I've removed the citation requests and cited Showfax for the crew and summaries. Matthew (talk) 06:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I put the table back and updated it.  You go put the citations where you want them.  I checked the guidelines on tables of episodes and there is no policy stated or implied requiring the table not have empty cells, and tables like that were all over the place in September when the new season started in the US.  These titles will come fast - why not leave it in place? --Drmargi (talk) 07:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just think a lot of empty cells is useless as they're empty. However, the primary problem (sources) is resolved, and the empty cells issue is not worth fighting over. I'm not going to remove them again. Matthew (talk) 09:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can't argue with the uselessness point, if they're sitting there doing nothing.  But to my mind, the table is a work in progress, and is inappropriate when its incomplete.  And bear in mind, it's also a lot of work to set one up and rather frustrating to have it reverted when there's no guideline precluding one. Glad that's settled!! --Drmargi (talk) 14:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Season Four Table 

message: I see an editor has come through, twice, and collapsed the three two-part Closer episodes into one listing.  While two of the three were broadcast in a two-hour block, the exception being "Till Death Do Us", these are separate episodes, produced back-to-back, not concurrently or collaboratively, with separate writers and crew.  It is incorrect and entirely misleading to list them as one episode in one entry. Drmargi (talk) 16:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. On the TV guide it appeared as two separate 1 hour shows. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:58, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly.  There's no justification for collapsing the episodes into one listing especially when they're broadcast in two parts.  What concerns me is this particular editor has done this on several shows.  Drmargi (talk) 22:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The only thing that might be confusing to this user is that they appeared right after the other. It would be exactly the same if they aired one part one week and the next a week later, so maybe this needs to be explained? Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 22:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The first time "Serving the King" and "Next of Kin" were broadcast, they were shown back-to-back; "Tll Death Do Us" never was.  Now, they're rerun in two part time slots as often as not.  A note can handle that issue, just as with the extended version of "Ruby" and the commercial-free versions of the Season 1 - Season 3 openers.  That's far clearer than lumping two episodes together in one box.  Drmargi (talk) 23:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I meant explained to this user, its pretty much obvious as you're saying. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 01:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh!  Sorry, I didn't realize that.  Either way, I'm going to add a few notes covering the points we discussed above.  You articulated a need I had noted as well in a private comment to the editor in question, which suggests it really does need to be done. Drmargi (talk) 01:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two-Part Episodes on The Closer 

message: You recently [ removed] my addition of viewer statistics citing lack of data for earlier episodes. I do not find this a valid reason to not display the information as I feel it significantly adds to the article, with or without data for all the episodes. You also mentioned edit notes which I was unable to locate. Please explain your reasoning better and if you could point to me to the edit notes it would be most apprecaited. --Odie5533 (talk) 09:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want one editor to respond, please put the question on his/her talk page.  Some while back the issue of adding viewership data came up.  Cable ratings data are hard to find, and often inaccurate.  There is little or no ratings data for the early seasons of The Closer, leading to the decision not to include ratings.  Adding out-of-date ratings data to one season that has ended is in the realm of esoterica.  It's not notable, but really just fancruft.  I can see adding a table with first episode and last episode data, which are the only ratings data that have long-term meaning.  But the rest adds nothing but meaningless clutter. Drmargi (talk) 08:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I wanted it to be aimed at a single editor, but open so others could see and respond. Whose decision are you referring to? Either way, the issue has come up again and I believe it should be added. I don't consider viewer statistics, which are universally understood, as fancruft. That would be the color of their tshirts. --Odie5533 (talk) 18:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I can't agree with the notion that "any info is good info," especially where TV shows are concerned.  That's a Pandora's box no one wants to open; my that standard I could add what color shorts the director wore on a Tuesday - it's info, after all.  Obviously, that's absurd, and it's also why we have WP:NOT as a standard.  Ratings have meaning for a limited period of time, after which they add nothing.  There seems to be a little cabal of TV fanatics imposing one standard for table construction and adding fancruft to these tables, including dated ratings data, and reverting any editor who dares to disagree by claiming policy.  That flies in the face of the basic Wikipedia principles, and is not acceptable.  It is also not acceptable to revert an edit once consensus has been requested.  Drmargi (talk) 08:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: When I said "any info is good info" I was referring specifically to the Nielsen statistics, and nothing else. Ciao.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 04:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Based on the complete lack of response from any dissenting editor on the talk page, consensus was reached as far as actual discussion is concerned. There is no cabal. We believe that the data is useful. We are not trying to ruin the principles of Wikipedia, or claim ownership of an article, or add unreasonable amounts of fancruft. We simply believe that the viewership statistics are interesting and useful information. --Odie5533 (talk) 18:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

text: If/when it would be nominated for FL, provided the numbers don't exist as far as we are able to find, why would that be grounds for removing the available ones? The information in the article would be a reflection of available data. We can't be expected to offer information that doesn't exist, and provided the statistics we do offer are done so in a neat and unobtrusive fashion, I feel any available statistics would be a useful inclusion. --Odie5533 (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's worth it to have the viewer numbers when they are available. Not having them would be like saying you can't make an article unless it has all information possible. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 03:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: To Odie, as far as FL is concerned, if you only have half of the Nielsen ratings then you won't pass FL. Just because you cannot find a source listing the information doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's highly unlikely that the show would have only a portion of its ratings published, given that those ratings have been published for many years before this show was even thought of. Given that they could be in printed sources, or hidden away in others that are not directly related to Nielsen ratings, if you don't find them then you have an issue with comprehensive coverage. You cannot argue in an FLN that "you couldn't find them", at least not if you want this page to be FL. They're there somewhere, because you already have some.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 04:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viewer statistics 

message: I just edited this page to include the plot outlines of the already aired season 5 episodes. I just found however another editor just removed them because I copied them from the TNT website. How could this be construed as plagiarism or a copyright infringement??? It was a very general plot outline, not revealing any details of the episode outcome. (TBird100636 (talk) 22:35, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a copyvio of TNT not The Closer. --Odie5533 (talk) 22:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

text: A plot summary should reveal details of the episode outcome. It's an overview, not a hook to get someone interested. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 23:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Season 5 Plot outlines 

message: Rosie, you don't get to arbitrarily change tables that have been in place for five years on the article for "The Closer" and declare them "shit."  Your edits are not civil, and must be discussed.  In changing the DVD table to add needless season information that's already in the tables below it, you also removed a number of very important notes regarding the original broadcast of episodes, and removed formatting that makes the table more readable.  You need to discuss changes and wait for consensus before any further revisions.  Drmargi (talk) 02:15, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You're STILL refusing to discuss the changes you're making, and removing important information regarding the show.  It's possible to add columns to the table in place and not change the formatting to add your data.  You were willing to discuss on Castle; do it here, too!!  Because you're removing important information elsewhere on the page I'm going to have to treat this as vandalism if you don't stop.  You MUST discuss once you're asked to.  Let's not have an edit war over this, Rosie! Drmargi (talk) 02:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tables on The Closer 

message: When episode pages get very long, it is routine to make season pages and make the episode page a list of episodes with the descriptions, etc on the season page. Knowing that, I think it is counterproductive to remove ratings (when sourced) because though this page will not reasonably be able to have ratings for every episode of the series, it is possible to have the ratings for each show in the later seasons. By removing them now, it will be more work to track them down again when the page is split. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ratings 

message: I think that now is the time to create season pages.  What do you think?  68.44.179.54 (talk) 16:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Why?  What content will you add that's not already here or in the main article.  --Drmargi (talk) 17:52, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

text: *Agree with Drmargi. This show is soon to be over and unless you can research and source material, outside of the basic tables, that can't be covered here or in the main article, then it's pointless to clutter up the Wikiworld. — WylieCoyote 23:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Season Pages 

message: The summary for Season 1 is way too long and could do with some serious trimming and copy-editing. Tad Lincoln (talk) 18:40, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Some editor came in a while back and rewrote it along with the lead to the main article.  I've been promising myself for ages that I'd do something about then, since they're laden with POV and other "commentary", for want of a better term. I've just restored the original S1 summary, which stood for years.  --Drmargi (talk) 20:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Season 1 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The entry for Heroic Measures is far longer than any other episode. Is there any reason for that ? == Beardo (talk) 04:46, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heroic Measures 

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