Template talk:State of Israel

message: I would like to propose an edited template I have put together at: User:Goodoldpolonius2/israel. In addition to making it neater and prunning some more obscure subjects, I created a few new articles (especially around the economy) and de-emphasized the security aspect, which took up much of the original template, and listed a lot of small branches of the IDF/Police or small defense companies by name. Comments? --Goodoldpolonius2 03:57, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey IZAK, I am not trying to "tamper," just edit and refine.  First, on the thickness - this is easily editable, just a sign of low wiki design skills - this template can be at least as thin as the current one [nb - I did shrink it a bit].  As to why I edited it:
===History section===
*The original history section was a mess to anyone who did not know Israeli history.  How is a non-expert going to understand a non-chronological set of words like: Herzl, Faisal-Weizmann, Sykes-Picot, and San Remo?  I made it chronological and edited out some of the short-lived points (like Faisal-Weizmann Agreement) and those that were covered in the main articles (like Herzl).  I also made the Zionist/timeline and Aliyah/timeline stuff a little clearer and more attractive.
**"Herzl, Faisal-Weizmann, Sykes-Picot, and San Remo" are the PILLARS upon which modern Israel's political and legal foundations were built which is precisely what a "non-expert" needs to understand. IZAK 06:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I actually expanded it back again -- originally it was a full link, and should still be (who knows intuitively what "N" means?).  The template is designed to guide people to topics of interest on Israel, and to not include the nuclear program (with all of its oddities) seems strange.  Especially since we are including organizations like Ma'shaz, which is far less likely to be of interest to any reader of the template.  --Goodoldpolonius2 00:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing the template

message: *The original history section was a mess to anyone who did not know Israeli history.  How is a non-expert going to understand a non-chronological set of words like: Herzl, Faisal-Weizmann, Sykes-Picot, and San Remo?  I made it chronological and edited out some of the short-lived points (like Faisal-Weizmann Agreement) and those that were covered in the main articles (like Herzl).  I also made the Zionist/timeline and Aliyah/timeline stuff a little clearer and more attractive.
**"Herzl, Faisal-Weizmann, Sykes-Picot, and San Remo" are the PILLARS upon which modern Israel's political and legal foundations were built which is precisely what a "non-expert" needs to understand. IZAK 06:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: History section

message: *Land of Israel.  I included the three largest cities and moved Kibbutzim to culture.
**Good, I agree with this move. IZAK 06:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Land of Israel section

message: *I seperated out culture and demographics from economics. Previously there were no economic articles, which seemed like a big gap. Thus, under economics I added a list of Israeli companies and entrepreneurs, as well as a list of universities.  I then put some of the orphan articles about culture under, well, culture.
**Good, thank you, I agree with this too. IZAK 06:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture and Demographics & Economics sections

message: *Under Law and Politics, I eliminated "flag" "anthem" and "Hebrew" - they are all covered in the main Template:Israel. (NB from May 11:  The Template:Israel template is not currently used.  The template on the main Israel page is actually the country infobox, but it still holds the flag, anthem, and Hebrew links)
----
** (inserted here) Yes, but, since that template is not used in multiple places, I think we should still have the flag, anthem, and language links on this template. E=MC^2 T@lk 17:47, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Law and Politics section

message: *I wasn't trying to reflect any POV, but the truth is that Security Forces was way, way too long.  Especially with economics missing, it looked like Israel was nothing but an military-industrial complex - yes, everyone serves, but it is not the only aspect to Israeli life.  The largest links are preserved, and the sections following are entirely conflict-related anyway, so the point is made about the role of the military.  As to the particulars of the cut: Some of the units listed are pretty minor in terms of staff and role, such as YAMAM, MAGAV, and MASHAZ -- and they are not generally recognizable to non-Israelis anyway, and are accessible from the Police or IDF links in context.  The companies you listed, IAI IMI, Rafael, are not the most significant in the country nor are they the big drivers of the economy (IAI is the largest of the bunch, but is still smaller than Teva, BAZAN, Elco, etc.).  They are not even the primary source of military equipment for Israel.  As for Magen David and ZAKA, well, I can see a Medical Service link that talks about this stuff in context of them, Haddassah, health care, etc., but these are really specific - can you imagine listing the Red Cross in a country template? Not including every security service does not de-emphasize the importance of security, it does make the template more readable. Goodoldpolonius2 05:27, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually expanded it back again -- originally it was a full link, and should still be (who knows intuitively what "N" means?).  The template is designed to guide people to topics of interest on Israel, and to not include the nuclear program (with all of its oddities) seems strange.  Especially since we are including organizations like Ma'shaz, which is far less likely to be of interest to any reader of the template.  --Goodoldpolonius2 00:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Security Forces section

message: Three comments: (1) I think centering looks better. (2) I agree that the current template has a lot of security things that simply won't be known to non-Israelis, but have no particular opinion on how much they should be edited down. (3) Shouldn't there be at least one link related to the peace movement in Israel, given so many to the military? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:32, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
*Jmabel, there are in fact FOUR links to the subject of Israel's efforts for peace on the template: Camp David; Israel's peace treaty with Egypt; Israel's peace treaty with Jordan; and one for the Peace process which certainly reflects the aspirations for peace of the majority of Israelis made good through actual treaties concluded. IZAK 06:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Other additions

message: This template is now even bigger than the the Infobox country. I'll say it again: this template should be split into smaller templates (History of Israel, Geography...). All countries have different topical templates. (Please, if you oppose this proposal, state clearly your reasons.) CG 09:18, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
: I'd like to see an attempt to tighten up this template rather than (or before) it is broken to pieces. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 07:12, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to see it split up, as a means of tightening it up.  It's not sensible to have such a large and diverse set of articles in a template-linking clique;  it would be much less intrusive and detail-ridden to to have one overall navigation template (roughly speaking, the "blue" bits of the current template);  and a set of smaller ones, which the typical article would only need to include one of.  There's really no need why YAMAM and Haifa need to be on the same template, as it's hardly going to be the common case where a user wants, out of any context related to the article text, to go straight from one to the other:  hierarchical linking and navigation would be a lot more logical, readable, and usable.  Alai 07:08, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope Alai, I do NOT agree with you. What does need to happen is that people should use this template judiciously and apply it only to long(ish) articles where it provides a good "overview". This template should not be placed into articles that are merely stubs, and whoever does so is being reckless. So the template is fine, it just needs to be placed on Israel-realted articles that have lots of information and could use this kind of very helpful cross-linked sources of references. IZAK 17:40, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that this big box (and it's going to get bigger with the number Peace treaties, etc) doesn't belong in some articles. For example, some might find it offensive in Palestine (region). How about an alternative: we can create 1) a compact template, 2) a few subtemplates, and 3) a full template transcluding all of the above. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 21:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't agree more. Please if you oppose to this proposal, state clearly why. CG 16:33, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Strongly agree, the "template of templates" is an excellent model.  It wouldn't strictly need to be coded that way, so long as people don't mind maintaining different "flattened" versions of the reduced-size templates, but it may be the best way.  IZAK, you imply the problem is people using it "incorrectly" on short articles, but the template actually links to articles like Sayeret (which therefore by convention have to include it) that fall well short of the "lots of information" test.  That one's even tagged as a stub, though strictly it may be a tad longer that that would normally imply.  Furthermore, several of the defence-related bodies link to are actually part of other such bodies, also linked to on the same template, which is surely highly redundant for inclusion in anything other than specifically defence-related articles, or extremely broad articles like Israel.  Alai 07:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Alai: Merely because the template links to a stub does not mean it should be split. The stub may be a critical article relevant to the over-all subject of modern Israel, (and there is no "law" on Wikipedia that says that the template that links to it "must" be there for now...it can be inserted when the article has more information added to it.) Furthermore, because Israel is such a highly-militarized nation it is therefore accurate that the template reflect Israel's high involvement with defense matters and articles pertaining thereto. So your reasoning here would appear to be based on lack of knowledge concerning this complex subject about such a small nation, which the present template admirably reflects. IZAK 08:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split the template 

message: As a result of latest edits, a number of links got duplicated. It cannot stay like that. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 10:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have introduced level 2 headers to reconcile history & conflicts, and moved geography up so the reader doesn't get immersed into the maze of history & conflicts right from the start. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 05:34, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicated links 

message: What's the point of " ·" if you put a space before the  ? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:17, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've replaced ever   with space. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 23:48, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  nbsp 

message: Where is the section of wild life in Israel????? 
--83.244.17.127 19:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Currently? in the shelters. Psychomelodic  15:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: where is wild life

message: Anyone else feel  a more appropriate/informative name for this template...?  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 21:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mind the name change, but it would be better to avoid redirect and actually change  into  where it is transcluded. The template itself had to be changed as well, I fixed that. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for spotting and fixing the self-reference. Re updating those pages that call , I guess this is something a bot could do...?  Yours, David (talk) 18:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template name 

message: I am trying to get this template template:IDFTable to have the same colors of Template:State of Israel, could anyone help me out ? Acidburn24m 13:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll try to take a look in the next day or so... Meanwhile, the information you're after is given within the style= statements in this template's code, e.g. style="background:#1e90ff;" for the main heading's background; style="background:#eef0ff;" for the subheadings' background; etc. Maybe this is all you need...?  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 09:36, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template editing help needed.. 

message: I thought that I can fix is template but it have so many problems that I don't know where start. After first reading the main problems are:
#Geography without Dead Sea but with Red Sea?
#History is stopped at Austerity!?
#Jewish exodus under Arab-Israeli conflict!?
#Wine at main template of Israel!?
#Israeli-Palestinian conflict without Fedayeen!?
#Law of Return under Laws & Politics and in first place!?
#The Israeli-Palestinian conflict section haven't any order
Actually, I think that all template need rewrite… Troll Refaim 19:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is it!?