Talk:Fred Sullivan

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I have just modified one external link on Fred Sullivan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050912110237/http://www.arcadee.freeserve.co.uk/gnspr03.htmto http://www.arcadee.freeserve.co.uk/gnspr03.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Fred Sullivan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060420221553/http://www.gilbertandsullivanonline.com/programm.htm to http://www.gilbertandsullivanonline.com/programm.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081210014245/http://www.library.rochester.edu/index.cfm?page=4138 to http://www.library.rochester.edu/index.cfm?page=4138
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.arcadee.freeserve.co.uk/gnspr03.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Fred Sullivan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060901171918/https://www.gsarchive.net/other_sullivan/genealogy/sul_genealogy.html to https://www.gsarchive.net/other_sullivan/genealogy/sul_genealogy.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello! This is to let editors know that :File:Fred Sullivan_by_Oliver_Sarony.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for October 20, 2023. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2023-10-20. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page.  If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you!  — Amakuru (talk) 17:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured picture scheduled for POTD 

message: before you revert my edits and post a lengthy copypasta paragraph about how “infoboxes are neither required nor prohibited” and “infoboxes are particularly unsuited to liberal arts biographies”, consider the following: there is neither local nor project consensus (besides this rather weak appeal to an authority that doesn’t even say what it claims) that this article doesn’t need an infobox, so you removing it without reasoning is essentially WP:I just don’t like it. If you decide to keep doing it it will just become WP:OWNership and pointless disruption. As for mentioning Arthur Sullivan in the first sentence, this is probably what people would consider him most notable for as well as his theatrical career. Dronebogus (talk) 22:02, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You know I’m not going to be convinced by hearing the same lengthy argument at every single infobox thing, and I doubt anyone else will either. Dronebogus (talk) 08:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: Should the first sentence mention his brother Arthur Sullivan? Dronebogus (talk) 14:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Out of process nomination. Please read WP:RFCBEFORE. - SchroCat (talk) 15:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought I discussed this more but I was wrong. Closing. Dronebogus (talk) 15:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC lead

message: Should the first sentence mention his brother Arthur Sullivan? This is probably what most people would know him for and confirms that they are indeed related and not just coincidentally named. As it is you have to read down to like the second paragraph to find even a vague reference to “his brother” that can only be confirmed to the less knowledgeable reader by clicking on the nearby hyperlink to the work being discussed. Dronebogus (talk) 20:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: " As it is you have to read down to like the second paragraph to find". This is the actual disagreement I have with your approach. I think this is an encyclopedia, and we want people to read it. But it doesn't really matter what I say or do, because after you wait the minimum amount of time, despite the fact that no one agrees with you, you will begin an RfC (as you already tried to do above). I believe that you are destructive to Wikipedia, as you do not contribute useful content and instead require productive editors repeatedly to waste a lot of time battling your RfCs and ANIs. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:59, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I’m done arguing with you. Dronebogus (talk) 21:26, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh joy!!!!!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

text: The first sentence does a fine job of saying who he is; being someone's brother should not be what we define someone by, and thinking Wikipedia readers can't digest more than the first line is insulting to us and them.  No, we should not define someone in the first line of an article by who they are related to. SandyGeorgia (Talk)  21:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: He’s also notable for being someone’s brother. We should include everything he’s notable for. If he was just someone’s brother he wouldn’t have an article. I’m also unsure as to how you got “Wikipedia readers can't digest more than the first line” from suggesting the first line should make it clear he’s related to the more famous Sullivan whose plays he performed in. Dronebogus (talk) 21:30, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Arthur Sullivan is already mentioned in the Lead. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Is he mentioned in a clearer manner than the one I already pointed out as overly vague? Dronebogus (talk) 21:34, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: He should not be mentioned more prominently.  You are wrong again: people are not notable because of being related to notable people. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You aren't going to agree so you'd be better off just ignoring each other's replies. If everyone stops replying then there's nothing else to reply to and you can all go back to doing something productive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I’d prefer Ssilvers just not reply if it’s just arguing for the sake of arguing. SG at least offered a serious opinion on the matter. Dronebogus (talk) 22:41, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I offered a serious opinion.  I said that Arthur Sullivan should not be mentioned more prominently, because (1) he is already mentioned (more than once) in the Lead, and (2) people are not WP:Notable because of being related to notable people. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

text: OK, that's fine.  Done. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:42, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead