Talk:Georg Forster/Archive 1

message: The Gdansk vote has created a rule which you are to follow, Witkacy and Space Cadet. I was not involved in the voting at all and you can cry about the outcome as long as you want to but the outcome is definite. Deleting the notice from the talk page is therefore Avoidance Vandalism. I don't know what reasons you have to delete it but if you've reasons you're not afraid to state, do it. Every pointless unexplained revert only undermines your credibility because it indicates vandalism. If you're really under the illusion that you're right, address Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion and the administrator who added the notice, and try to convince them there. Until then the administrator's decision is definite.NightBeAsT 16:45, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, actually, that's one big mess...  Admins don't determine policy, and article talk pages are an extremely dubious place to establish policy, too.  What really amazes me is that there's more heated reverting of the notice, than of the article edit it's supposedly concerning.  I'm not much bothered about the former, but the latter seems pretty obvious.  Would anyone care to argue on it's supposed merits why the Polish-names only could possibly be superior?  Or is anti-vote disruption the real goal here?  At any rate, I'm replacing the previous wording, as I've seen no argument whatsoever for the new one.  Alai 04:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And while we're at this - shouldn't that notice apply to Royal Prussia too? The constant use of the name Gdansk at that article should be replaced by Danzig, since most of its related History falls in the 1308-1945 period described at the Vote Resolution. - Shauri 22:43, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've noticed several articles like that, in fact.  Unfortunately, I don't think the "notice" is helping; judging by results, it's a bit more like a red-bordered flag to a bull.  It provokes an immediate edit war on the notice, too, and isn't generally regarded as enforceable.  Better IMO to just make the appropriate edits, in the short term, and in the longer, to resolve the underlying dispute someplace where it can actually be seen to be in line with policy (and thus be able to modify it) -- i.e., at a naming conventions page.  Alai 17:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Constant deletion of the Gdansk voting notice

message: Gentleman, to your edit summary saying "oh Shauri.Claiming now that Prussia or German Reich didn't persecute Poles or held beliefs they were inferior people ? Restored information" while re-adding the phrase "despite the fact that both states persecuted Poles using stereotypes expressed by Forster"; it had nothing to do with your claim. Both regimes were clearly anti-Polish imho, and in the case of the III Reich, also in a criminal way. But that particular phrase in the context of this article has little objective, other than to add to the negative image that you so intensely try to present of Forster with an argument that is not central to the text itself and thus entirely POV. In case you haven't noticed, this article is about Forster, not about Prussia or the German Reich. So please, don't take the attempts to offer an encyclopedic view of the facts as an "anti-Polish bias", like you do 100% of the times when "anyone" shows you you're beating around the bush. Regards, Shauri  smile! 01:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ehem... did I actually remove the quote without knowing?... nope! I left it there all the time. Your POV deals with the linking of Forster with the actions of German governments, not with the quote of Forster itself. Don't selectively quote me, like you do with your sources. And if the sense that may be inferred from the current wording worries you, there are many NPOV ways to rephrase it. I suggest you come up with one, post it here and I'll be more than happy to collaborate with you on it. Shauri
 In case you haven't noticed, this article is about Forster, not about Prussia or the German Reich.
The article speaks about German Reich and Prussia without my edits.He also created stereotypes used by both countries.--Molobo 12:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding Molobo's latest edit summary 

message: The current content o biography section is very limited and very short compared to the other sections. It can be extended with the help of the German version or any other source that describes the life of Forster. Alx-pl D 19:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New NPOV mark 

message: I realize that the footnotes in the section that show Forster's anti-Polish statements are there for a reason: the discussion on this page. However, there's too many of them and it is not clear to me that they are still attached to the right words (I hope my last edit didn't mess this up more than it already was). I would be pleased if somebody could go through them, remove some, and make sure they stand for what they're meant to stand for. This would make the article easier to edit and easier to read. -- Kusma (talk) 05:49, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnotes 

message: It is important to mention that Forster was cosmopolitan in the eyes of his successors not in his own eyes. I don't know any source which says that he conciously considered himself to be cosmopolitan. Alx-pl D 14:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cosmopolitanism 

message: This may be interestin for editors here. Alx-pl D 20:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info 

message: Bömelburg's article (see the references) puts Forster's writings on Poles into context, especially the unhappy times he had in Wilno. However, it is critical of Forster in showing some rather bad quotations from his letters. The article starts with the following one, which can be read as "Poles are just animals". I would prefer to read it as "Poles are as dirty/unhygienic as animals", and I believe that is the intention. The context is a private letter to his future wife (translated by me):
:Whole sheets of paper would not suffice to give you an impression of what is called polnische Wirtschaft in the neighboring German regions. [...] The Poles are innately swine, the lords as well as the servants: everybody goes poorly dressed, especially the female sex; if they do dress up, it fits like a golden necklace fits a sow. Of course there are exceptions; I am talking of the general rule. [...] The Polish nobility itself is something completely despicable. The countesses are combing sauf le respect their lice out of the windows. Knights of the order of Stanislaus sneeze into their bare hands at the assembly of the prince-bishop, and noble moustaches with sabres at their side are wearing straw instead of socks in their boots, or at least that is what Madame Przesiecka told me. 
:(Forster to Therese Heyne, 22-24 January 1785).
Bömelburg contrasts this with the following quote (also translated by me):
:It deserves special attention that this comprehensive description of the Polish conditions comes from the pen of a man who knew the most different people of the world like hardly anybody else in the late 18th century. Georg Forster, who had sailed around the world with James Cook and had noted the characteristics of every people with scientific accuracy, has with his excellent characterisation given us a vivid description of the polnische Wirtschaft at the end of the 18th century. [...] In any case this use makes it clear that the German neighbors were making a difference between their own living and culture and the polnische Wirtschaft, and that they had clearly realised the superiority of German culture over the Polish culture.
:(Bernhard Stasiewski: "Polnische Wirtschaft" und Georg Forster, eine wortgeschichtliche Studie. In: Deutsche Wissenschaftliche Zeitung im Wartheland 2 (1941), 207-216)).
Bömelburg says that the "Polnische Wirtschaft" stereotype was not invented by Forster, but associated with him during the Nazi era by people such as Stasiewski. Forster's letters and diaries were published 30 years after his death, and not put into the context of his personal conditions while he was in Wilno (he had bad prejudices before he went, and did not find friends there). The anti-Polish quotations (taken out of context; Forster also said good things about Poles) were then used, especially after 1870, to strengthen feelings of German superiority. Since Forster was otherwise known (from his published books) as an excellent and impartial observer of people, his emotional outbursts in his letters were taken at face value and as accurate description of Poland by readers who already wanted to believe in the inferiority of everything Polish. Even in the Nazi era, people tried to use his stainless reputation as an ethnologist together with his insulting emotional letters to "prove" German superiority. 
I do not yet know how to make a good and short paragraph out of the above observations (which somehow became a mix of paraphrasing Bömelburg and my own interpretation, for which I apologize). It seems clear that Forster's words on Poles did have some influence, as they were used as "proof" by anti-Polonists, so it is also clear that something should be written in the article. However, the simplifying manner in which these things were put by Molobo does not do Forster justice (especially the "comparison with animals" thing is far more subtle). Anyway, here is a suggestion:
:In contrast to the attitude expressed in these writings and to his Enlightenment background, he used insulting terms against Poles in his private letters during his stay in Wilno, but he never published any manifestation of such contempt. Said insults only became known after his death, when his private correspondence was released to the public. Since Forster's published descriptions of other nations were seen as impartial scientific observations, Forster's disparaging description of Poland in his letters and diaries was often taken at face value in Imperial and Nazi Germany, where it was used as a means of "proof of German superiority". The spreading of the depreciating term "Polnische Wirtschaft" is likely due to the influence of his letters.
I will soon be able to lay my hands on a book on anti-Polish thought in 19th century Germany that should help me understand the influence of Forster's letters in more detail. If anybody is interested, I can also comment on the context that Bömelburg gives for Forster's experiences in Wilno, but I will stop here because I have written and translated quite enough for now.  Kusma (討論) 00:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a description which clarifies all the doubts I had with the previous accounts. It is also well supported by sources. After it gets into the article we can also add links to the other sources. Alx-pl D 01:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Thx for excellent and sourced answer. Szopen 12:59, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bömelburg article: translation of some quotations 

message: I've read the article Jerzy Forster a narodziny stereotypu Polaka w Niemczech XVIII/XIX wieku by Stanisław Salmonowicz. The general conclusions of the article are the following:
* There is no clear evidence on the strong Forster's influence on the building  of the negative stereotypes of Poles in Germany in 18th and 19th centuries (although there is some evidence).
* Forster is not the author of the term polnische Wirtschaft (he lerned it in his childhood).
* He was the one to made the term and other negative opinions, which were previously popular among inferior ranks of the German society, acceptable to the well educated people of his times.
* His opinions, although initially not published, had negative influence on Polish-German relations later on.
Basically, this reaffirms the summary of Kusma. The summary of Kusma conveys all the points. I would only add the mention of Forster's diaries from the journey through Poland:
:In contrast to the attitude expressed in these writings and to his Enlightenment background, he used insulting terms against Poles in his private letters during his stay in Wilno and in a diary from the journey through Poland, but he never published any manifestation of such contempt. Said insults only became known after his death, when his private correspondence and diaries were released to the public. Since Forster's published descriptions of other nations were seen as impartial scientific observations, Forster's disparaging description of Poland in his letters and diaries was often taken at face value in Imperial and Nazi Germany, where it was used as a means of "proof of German superiority". The spreading of the depreciating term "Polnische Wirtschaft" is likely due to the influence of his letters.
Alx-pl D
As no one opposes the formulation above, I'm going to insert it to the article in the next one-two days. alx-pl D 08:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Salmonowicz article