Talk:Collective punishment

message: Sus scrofa: Please stop inserting unbalanced anti-Israel POV.  "Unambigious" and "clear cut" are unambigious and clear cut indications of an anti-Israel POV, as is eliminating any indication that pro-Israel people consider "collective punishment" an anti-Israel code word while maintaining that pro-US people consider it an anti-American code word, the latter being a far more questionable statemtent.  Any critical mind looking at the article would see the tenor of language and realize that it is not reliable as is.  I'll try to rework the language to make it more balanced, but please take your anti-Israel stance to a discussion board (e.g., here) rather than hashing it out on the article page. Calbaer 20:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm....  I'm not sure what the above contribution has to do with whether or not collective punishment is never proportional.  It does state that collective punishment is consistent with rule of law, but that argues for a change to the text, not the topic I had brought up.  I am using the concept of Proportionality (political maxim) as linked from the prior version of the article, and this has no reference to the Geneva Conventions.  This may be flawed, but if so it should be fixed. I understand the point that collective punishment can violate proportionality.  What I am asking is if anyone feels, as per the prior version of the article, that collective punishment must violate proportionality.Calbaer 03:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you come up with any real examples of collective punishment that don't contradict proportionality?  The two examples you presented don't work.  The first is not an example of collective punishment.  The second certainly violates proportionality (punishment of the Japanese were out of proportion to their "crimes"). TedTalk/Contributions 11:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia should be a collection of facts proven to be true, not a collection of claims not proven false.  If you believe collective punishment always violates proportionality but do not provide any argument for this claim, I can't convince you otherwise.  Regarding family punishment not being collective punishment, according to this very article (especially earlier versions), punishing family members of terrorists is a form of collective punishment.  Again, if you feel that there are claims made in the article that are flat-out wrong, fix them.  And the crimes of the Japanese government by 1942 were far greater than action taken by the U.S. against Americans of Japanese descent.  Yes, Japanese-Americans were innocents, but that's the point of collective punishment: It harms innocents.  (Also, once again, proportionality as we're using it does not agree with the link formerly in the article.  If someone wants to start proportionality (war), that might be useful.) Calbaer 21:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Wikipedia should be a collection of facts proven to be true, not a collection of claims not proven false."  I have no idea what you mean here.  You had presented some "examples" where something was supposedly collective punishment but was also proportional.  Unfortunately, they are fatally flawed.  I suggested that you might possibly rethink them.  It looks like you don't want to.  That's OK.  I have no intention of moving in on your turf.  I simply added what I know about collective punishment and the Geneva Conventions (mainly the 4th), but I have no agenda to push, so I'll move on.  Cheers. TedTalk/Contributions 00:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: Someone has made repeated use of uncheckable clips from the New York Times as proof that the English used communal punishment in places like 1920s Palestine, Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus etc.
None of the actions of the English in these places resulted in the huge backlash from the population that the actions of other powers have frequently done (eg post-1967 Palestine, Vietnam, Iraq, Chechnya etc). 
Either the English were as so nasty that the technique worked (as it did for the Nazis) or else what they were doing was considered proportionate and "fair" to other civilians in the region.
If the latter, then it's not the well-recognised crime of "communal punishment" (whatever themselves called it). MalcolmKing 20:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing "uncheckable" about news stories in the New York Times.  Historical newspapers  going back to the 1850's are available on microfilm in many public libraries and college libraries throughout the world. Most public libraries will provide these through interlibrary loan if they do not presently have them in their own collection. They are also availble online for a fee through Proquest subscription, for instance . There is no Wikipedia policy allowing the deletion of reliable sources satisfying WP:A just because they are not handy for you to look at online free. Very few scientific or medical journals are free online either, nor are most copyrighted books.  Edison 15:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Detectable POV going on here 

message: I am thinking that stopping direct trade, no sporting or other cultural links, which results in far worse conditions in the north, because of the actons of the various other powers (Republic of Cyprus/Greece/Turkey) is an act of collective punishment. Should it be included in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.245.111 (talk • contribs) 
:It seems a poor example and is totally unsourced, being just your opinion.  It should not be included, barring any reliable sources. Calbaer 04:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Are the embargoes on Northern Cyprus a form of collective punishment

message: The headline of this article is of a very general subject. Since most of the Article's contents are about The history of Collective Punishment, it should be general. The capacity and nature of information about a state's Collective Punishment should be equal to another, and a single state's one cant be bigger than or equal to that of a hole century (Let alone a section about a conflict that deals with one side of it). It is unproportional, unprofessional, and by doing so you are being sympathetic to a certain state and its history, making the Article Opinionated, political and journalistic, not informative as encyclopedia should be. I recommend all state's examples should be removed until edited on an equal basis.--Bob1969 (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe there is no way to measure this, but you must accept that an overwhelming majority of RS and international organisations refer to the Israel's actions as collective punishment. If you can find other examples of collective punishment supported by multiple RS, you are welcome to add them in the article. --386-DX (talk) 00:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: In the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - irrelevant

message: The article seems to be an aspect of the Geneva Conventions. Using it to label conflicts that occurred before they were in place seems excessively revisionist and in violation of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Wouldnt it be better just to link the individual articles on the topics to this page so that people might make up their own minds? The article seems to give an excessively brief treatment of the topic at hand but has a very long list of examples. I dont know enough about the topic personally but Im sure someone does.Savonneux (talk) 10:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: The article in general

message: This article is too heavily focused the citation of large scale historical example of the phenomenon. There an absence of the role of collective punishment generally within cultural contexts. The use of collective punishment within, for example, eduction systems may seem trivial when compared the scale of atrocities afflicted across nations but this belies it's significance in terms of it's social and psychological impact.
Also there is no acknowledgment on the on the removal of civil liberties by governments in order to combat perceived threats. This form of collective punishment is probably the most historically significant. Fourisplenty (talk) 09:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Narrow scope of article 

message: It would seem this is a popular social control method, especially in Europe, from medieval times up to recent times. Which is to say in use under (state) law. Since when has it become against international law, eg. crime against humanity, violation of laws of war, etc.? Can citations be found for this view? Int21h (talk) 22:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Violation of international law? 

message: I've removed an old POV template with a dormant discussion, per the instructions on that template's page:
::This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
::#There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
::#It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
::#In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
If editors are continuing to work toward resolution of any issue and I missed it, however, please feel free to restore. Cheers, -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing POV tag with no active discussion per [[Template:POV]] 

message: Do international sanctions (e.g. the west's current sanctions on Iran over its nuclear enrichment) constitute collective punishment? Some have argued that it does. Matt2h (talk) 14:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sanctions 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: here I restored   appropriately sourced information regarding the kin of terrorists killed by US forces in recent air strikes. The reverting editor, who does this over several pages whenever the subject is the US failed to note that the phenomenon is already cited earlier on this page to define US actions (in the 20th century). Further, while advising me to address the talk page, he reverted without giving any argument at all for the removal. POV pushing, as it stands.Nishidani (talk) 17:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The two sources you've provided for this edit (1, 2) are both opinion pieces, not journalism. And neither of them mention the words "collective punishment" or even address the topic by any other name. As I explained in my edit summary, this doesn't belong here. Bradv 17:37, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If you believe that you should proceed to gut the article. From top to bottom most of the sources added by numerous editors lack the words "collective punishment".You say  the sources don't even 'address the topic by any other name'. This is diametrically opposed to your weird arguments at Sippenhaft, which is the German word for kinship liability (another name for the same thing). Go any check through the sources. If you eliminate everything here that fails your criteria as stated above, I'll take you as editing in bona fide. If not then you are defending a nationalist interest.Nishidani (talk) 20:35, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You are the one who cherry picked sources. This is from the article: 
Two U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity stated that the target of the October 14, 2011 airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian believed to be a senior operative in Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.[8] Another U.S. administration official speaking on condition of anonymity described Abdulrahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time," stating that "the U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki’s son was there" before the airstrike was ordered.[8] Former White House press secretary Robert Gibbs commented on the airstrike: "Maybe he (Abdulrahman Anwar al-Awlaki) should've had a more responsible father."[9][10] To say that it was collective punishment fails to use sources wisely, and shows perhaps your nationalist interest. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert 

message: Is a US drone strike that killed the child of a suspected terrorist, added here, an example of collective punishment? Bradv 20:48, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC on US drone strike 

message: *Not collective punishment as the Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki points out (notice of course that Nishidani didn't include those refs) the death was not targeted, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. 
Two U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymity stated that the target of the October 14, 2011 airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian believed to be a senior operative in Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.[8] Another U.S. administration official speaking on condition of anonymity described Abdulrahman al-Awlaki as a bystander who was "in the wrong place at the wrong time," stating that "the U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki’s son was there" before the airstrike was ordered.[8] 
Sir Joseph (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The sources Nishidani provided is mintpressnews, which is not a RS, and an opinion piece from the Atlantic, again not a RS. The article itself, quotes senior US officials who say that it wasn't a targeted killing. It's not clear why we need an RFC when the sources clearly don't agree with Nishidani. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Threaded Discussion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Internment of Japanese citizens in the United States.     
The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
More, I would imagine. MultiPoly (talk) 00:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Slavery in the US is replete with examples. Tulsa and similar events also come to mind. KetchupSalt (talk) 14:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  US is conspicuously absent 

message: Supporter clubs are often collectively punished for the actions of single individuals, in an effort to get the clubs to self-police their members. Examples are numerous. For example this paper describes how the throwing of fireworks onto the field in the 2014 KNVB Cup final (the so-called Fireworks incident) resulted in the Ajax supporter club being fined 70,000€ and its supporters and supporters of PEC Zwolle being banned from any future Ajax-Zwolle games the following three years. Similar incidents have occurred in Sweden. Malmö FF in a similar incident was fined 800,000kr (80,000€) by UEFA. KetchupSalt (talk) 14:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football supporter clubs 

message: I have added the ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement template as parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict. It is obvious which parts. This means that editors who want to edit that content must be extendedconfirmed. If they are not extendedconfirmed they should submit an WP:ER and someone will handle it. Following the WP:EDITXY advice is a way to increase the chance of the edit request being accepted. Sean.hoyland (talk) 01:48, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES

message: Does this topic apply to websites? Because Discord appears to have a policy of banning by association for serious crimes. Sources: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9rOLaH5dJs 
https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/svbyzp/can_you_get_banned_for_association/
Or would that be more appropriate on Discord's page? Wiimeiser (talk) 07:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Application to websites