Talk:Aspen Education Group

message: I want to call attention to my recent edits to the article. My name on Wikipedia is "Frog One" but my real name is Tom Croke. I was quoted in the article by someone else.  The quotation was valid when posted but things have changed and it came to my attention that out of date information was being used to damage schools and programs that have been sold and have no connection with Aspen or its present owners, CRC and Bain Capital.   Others are welcome to jump in on this and edit my edit.  On one hand I was uncomfortable editing a reference to me. On the other hand the out of date information should not be used to damage the innocent. Frog one (talk) 17:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

message: what we need under the criticism section is a list of the lawsuits and complaints against aspen schools that have been covered in mainstream periodicals.
I have found a few, which i have enumerated in the talk page for NATSAP. Time permitting i will be adding them in here. They are listed at this link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:National_Association_of_Therapeutic_Schools_and_Programs
Snertking (talk) 00:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "What we need" is more focus on writing a neutral, objective article based on third-party reliable sources. Battles between the company PR people trying to convert this article into a glossary promotional brochure and the people who want to create exposés leave articles like this looking more like battlefields than like encyclopedia articles. --Orlady (talk) 02:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd like to remind you of wp:agf in regards to your activist comment, as well as the PR comment. Lawsuits against Apsen programs are on topic and relevant. They have been covered in mainstream periodicals and are therefore relevant an on topic. I can hardly see how NPOV issues could be claimed. ASPEN is controversial, and the article needs to reflect that more. Snertking (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

text:  Bravo Orlady! Thank you for the clear-headed response. Objectivity is our goal. However I do have one criticism of your edits. The focus on investors, profits and revenue  does not seem to belong in the History section of the article. They are comments on the industry not the history of Aspen.  -- Cdw ♥'s ♪ ♫(talk) 02:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this is an article about a company, so information about the value of the company over time, its profits, and its investors is definitely germane. I you are referring to the statements from the 2005 New York Times article about the reasons for investor interest in the industry, it is true that the statements were not exclusively about Aspen, but they also were not about the industry in general -- they were about Aspen and companies like Aspen. Notably, Nader J. Naini, described in the Times as "a general partner with Frazier Healthcare" (at that time one of the main investors in Aspen) "and also the chairman of Aspen's board" was a major source about the attractiveness of this kind of company for investors and the prospects for continuing growth in Aspen. The only statement in the Times piece that is reflected in this article and is not clearly at least partially specific to Aspen is the stand-alone paragraph that says "Industry analysts estimate that the companies typically generate profit margins of 10 to 20 percent." Considering the small number of companies they could have been referring to, I still see that information as very germane to an article about this company. --Orlady (talk) 03:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please re-read my previous comment. It does not imply that your edits are not "germane". I have merely stated that financial information on this and other companies might not be considered as "History" of the subject. Can't we agree that some of it belongs at another place within the Aspen article? I am refering to the last two sentences of the first paragraph which editorialize on the motivations of the investors. My view of a History section is for it to contain a timeline of events surrounding the subject. We are on the same side here, aren't we, the side of objectivity? BTW, if you think I am one of those company PR persons that are trying to convert the article let me assure you that I have no interest, vested or otherwise, in promoting Aspen. I am however sensitive to the the battlefield mentality that is demonstrated in some contributors edits to this and similar wikis. I do try to set the record straight whenever possible, recognizing that I am not perfect and do make mistakes. So wah-da-ya-say we share notes and collaborate?  -- Cdw ♥'s ♪ ♫(talk) 17:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would agree, Financial information is relevant, but it ain't history. Belongs here, but not under history. As much as some people may want it near top for the obvious reasons. Snertking (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

text:  To clarify, the "as much as some people may want it" comment is not directed at Orlady, but rather at folks discussing this page elsewhere, who have stated it needs to be near top as it is seen first. Snertking (talk) 22:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  lawsuits and such 

message: I have reread the article as it is now written and has been edited since I last looked.  My impression is that the article is now fairly balanced.  The history appears to be accurate (although it now includes some things I did not previously know). I think more about Eliot Sainer's role in develpment of this company and early association with College Hospital could be included, but that is not about balance and fairness.  I like the paragraph on controversy as it is now written.  I don't want to tamper with the part that uses my name (Tom Croke) but I am not asking for Kudos here -- although as of this reading I am quoted accurately.  Frog one (talk) 02:51, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Status report, November 2012

message: Sorry if I'm in the wrong place here, but I was wondering if any of you noticed the links in this page are mostly dead? I've no clue how wikipedia works as of now, but can someone clean this up a little?99.230.28.141 (talk) 03:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: I have to say that thanks to the work of DPoC Aspen group is almost no more. Here are some updates:
*Adirondack Leadership Expeditions (was closed)
*Aspen Institute for Behavioral Assessment (was sold and not continued under new owner)
*Oakley School (Sold to Innerchange)
*SUWS Adolescent Programs (All SUWS programs are now in North Carolina only)
*Turn-About Ranch (Sold to the local management)
Look at their website. Covergaard (talk) 13:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Active schools december 2014 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070128094156/http://www.sagewalk.com:80/programs.htm to http://www.sagewalk.com/programs.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110716171017/http://www.suwscarolinas.com/press-release.html to http://www.suwscarolinas.com/press-release.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110829065025/http://democrats.edworkforce.house.gov:80/newsroom/2011/04/miller-there-is-no-room-for-to.shtml to http://democrats.edworkforce.house.gov/newsroom/2011/04/miller-there-is-no-room-for-to.shtml
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120302174156/http://www.suwscarolinas.com/certifications.htm to http://www.suwscarolinas.com/certifications.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150618084441/http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/printer_ElevationsRTC-BN_140505.shtml to http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/printer_ElevationsRTC-BN_140505.shtml/
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Looking for help to trim and edit this article free of unsourced, poorly sourced, and deceptively sourced material.
Please discuss additions after checking the source with strict wiki policy
Thanks kids, and hapoy editing! SkidMountTubularFrame (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better article 

message: A recent edit reverted all changes that have been made to this article between January 2022 and March 2023. I'm concerned that many of those changes were necessary, so I'd like to go through it and look at the issues with article with fresh eyes. Two things stand out - a very heavy reliance on court documents, often in regard to complaints by and about living people. This goes against WP:BLPPRIMARY. The second is a heavy reliance on questionable and self published sources. There's a lot to do, but to explain my edits to date:
*  So this is clearly about a named individual, but relies on a court document titled "J.M. v. CRC Health, Inc.". I have searched Lexis, which is whas this document is sourced to, but I cannot find the case. I've removed the source and claims solely sourced to it on two grounds. The first is WP:BLPPRIMARY, which states that we cannot use court documents when writing about living people. The second is that because I cannot verify the document, I have red flags being raised because the same source is used on a completely different case in this article, and is dated 2012 - two years after this case had been through the courts and finalised. Therefore I cannot be confident that it was related to this case, even if it could be used under BLP.
*  This claim was entirely dependent on the New York Post as a source, and that is considered unreliable. On WP:RSP the New York Post is listed as a "red" source, and is considered by editors to be "generally unreliable for factual reporting". As the paragraph was entirely dependent on that source, I had to remove the paragraph as a whole.
I'll make sure to explain any other significant changes here as I go, and, as always, I welcome discussion. - Bilby (talk) 12:34, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: A quick google search gave alternative source to the new york post which was time that meets WP:RSPSS 1keyhole (talk) 14:42, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The Time article you've used is simply quoting the New York Post: "The mother of a former student at Copper Canyon recently told the New York Post ...". So ultimately, this is still the New York Post's account. You've also used Troubledprograms.com, which is once again quoting the New York Post and appears to be self published. If the  content untimately relies on the New York Post, we can't use the content. Sorry. - Bilby (talk) 19:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with sourcing