Talk:History of American football

message: I have removed (not really i just wanted to be apart of this stuff guys :) ) the section on the early influence of Rugby, for several reasons.
*Some of the information was redundant. The influence of Rugby in the development of American football is clearly already in the article. Read the stuff on the McGill-Harvard games, and follow from there.
*Some of the information was clearly wrong or misleading. The influence of Gunmer (of Rutgers University) was not as great as it is made out. The Rutger's version of the game was largely based on the was that Association Football was played at the time, with a few idiosyncracies thrown in. While this version is important as it represents the first interecollegiate football game of any sort, the modern code of American Football did not actually descend from these games, but rather more directly from the Rugby-style games introduced by McGill as noted already in the article (see above). If any person is responsible for moving away from rugby towards modern American Football, it is Walter Camp, and the article already makes his role in doing so rather explicit.
*Some of it was uncited, non-neutral points of view. For example, the explanation that American football's development was done to be explicitly "anti-British"; even introducing some unrelated information from Baseball mythology. This criticism is uncited, and actually unsupported by most reliable historical documents on the development of American football. Indeed, even while American Football was developing, other codes of football were themselves changing and developing in diverging directions. Even association football and rugby had not reached their "modern" during this time period. The codes developed somewhat independently, and the development of the distinctly American code was not because of any explicit rejection of the other versions for being "British".
I would see no problem with adding more information about the relationship between American football and Rugby to the article provided that such information is
*Relevent
*Cited
*not redundant
*does not contradict established, mainstream scholarship
*neutrally worded
If the information can meet these requirements, feel free to add it to the article. --Jayron32 20:40, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The dominant, depending on viewpoint (Lomax and Smith), scholary work on History of American football, is considered: The origins and early development of professional football, 1890-1920 by Marc S. Maltby. Sadly, I have not read it. I should be able to get a hold of it tomorrow. If it's as good as everyone says, then I will edit the article to put it in further reading. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the removal of the Rugby section 

message: So, why remove the whole section? I could see where some of the links were irrelevent or only tangentally relevent, but certain ones, like the comparisons between American football and other close relatives in its "family tree" would seem germaine to the topic. Assuming that a) some of these should likely go and b) there are likely valid entries in a "see also" section, what entries are valid and which are not? --Jayron32 03:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The See also section 

message: The section 'Walter Camp:Father of American football' is the first instance of the word 'down' appearing in this article. I think this is a big turning point in the history of football as it had a big effect on rugby league football as well (a limited number of tackles being a defining feature of that sport as well). It would seem that rugby league got the idea from American football which seems to have had limited tackles/downs since 1880 or 1882. Just wanted further clarification about when they were first introduced mainstream. It seems to have been long before they were introduced in rugby league in the mid 1900s and I'd like to put a mention of that in the History of rugby league somewhere.--Jeff79 (talk) 03:28, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The idea of downs was developed by Walter Camp, so shouldn't appear until his section. He originally wanted 3 downs to advance 5 yards. In practice, it was decided that 4 downs to advance 10 yards produced the wanted effect. Instead of a continuous scrum, the goal was to produce a series of short plays in which the strategy of each down could be changed. It was in the 1880s that his system of downs was implemented. By 1882, it was pretty much set to 4 downs per 10 yards. -- kainaw™ 14:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction of 'down's 

message: I removed a section of text, which was recently added to this article. Of that section, about 75% of it was a direct copy-paste from this website. Given that it was all added by the same user, it makes the other text suspect as well. It should be clear that expanding this article with new text, suitibly cited to reliable sources, is a good idea. However, copying and pasting text wholesale from another source is a bad idea. The copied text in question also largely duplicated information which was elsewhere in the article anyways, the section titled "Rules standardization (1873–1880)" already covered the McGill-Harvard series and its influence on the American game in some detail. The other information, which was uncited, more properly belongs in an article on the History of Canadian football, since it dealt with the development of Canadian football rather than American football. --Jayron32 04:09, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed large copyvio and other suspect text 

message: One clear distinction between Rugby and American Football is padding and helmets. There's a linked page that gives the history of the helmet, but I think this page could do with at least a paragraph on how safety gear has been added over time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.14.228.1 (talk) 20:19, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There really should even be an article on the old nose-guards, such as seen on the neck in the photo of Nathan Dougherty. Cake (talk) 12:35, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion: Padding / protective gear 

message: Did this game really something in common with history of "American football"? It was the first "College football" game, but under "Association football" rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.92.199.1 (talk) 07:39, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it does, and if you read the entirety of the history section, you see how it, and later developments, fits. It actually wasn't played under "Association football" rules, but rather a unique set of rules, which shared some commonalities with both association football and rugby football. While the "Harvard-McGill" series noted later in the history section has a more direct lineage to the modern game, you should think of the Princeton-Rutgers game as something of a cousin rather than a grandfather to the modern game. It is still, however, important in the sense that nearly all major sources credit it as the first "Intercollegiate football game", including the NCAA itself, in the very real sense that it was a game, called football, played between two college teams. You'll want to read up on the 1969 college football season (which notes that the NCAA treated 1969 as its centenary because of the Princeton-Rutgers game). The article itself already notes the major rules and gameplay differences from the modern game. Noting those differences, however, is not the same as ignoring the game itself. There would be a glaring hole in this article, especially compared to other scholarship on American football history, if we pretended the game didn't matter simply because the rules of football when it was played were very different. Every single historical source on American football treats this game as important, even if they do note that it wasn't a direct ancestor to the modern game, and the Wikipedia article should (and you'll note already does) treat it the same way. Let me recommend reading reference #5 from the Professional Football Researchers Association, which covers the game in some detail and notes the controversy you note as well. --Jayron32 15:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rutgers vs. Princeton 

message: Cleveland Indians of 1920 should be changed to Cleveland Tigers
The link should go to Cleveland Tigers (NFL) and not Cleveland Indians (NFL 1931). 66.234.33.8 (talk) 07:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The official history of the Arizona Cardinals states that they were the Racine Cardinals until 1922: . --Jayron32 22:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for the reply. Their official name was the Chicago Racine Cardinals. Everyone referred to them as the Chicago Cardinals. I don't think this is worth dithering about. Racine Cardinals is close enough. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 08:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably a job for the arizona cardinal, history of, website wikipedia page to delve into. I was remiss in not checking that website. I am not going to bother to check that website, it's just not important. If you say Racine Cardinals, everyone knows what you're saying. I would not use official nfl websites for the be all and end all of info. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 08:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Bear in mind, you are not using  as the source for the name Racine Cardinals in your citations. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 12:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I should be able to access Maltby's book tomorrow. If he supports your case, then I will delete your citations and use him as a source. You have not refuted my challenge that the citations that you use in this article are specious. If Maltby does not support your case, then I will be force to put a citation needed in the article. You have to have citations in the article that support your statements. If you want me to wait a couple of weeks, or months even, then I have no problem with that. But the rules are clear, content must be verifiable. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misnamed NFL team and broken 
wikileak
 wikilink in this article 

message: It's 53. The exit columns are not precise. Coenen does not explain when what months and days of the year that teams left exactly the NFL. For the intrepid, there are sources that delve into such detail. :) I apologize for the size of the post but this is the only way to close this situation out. The table does not contain teams that entered after 1936 as its not pertinent to the discussion. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no complaints. I will edit the article accordingly. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teams that failed before 1936 

message: This link Football Almanac should not be utilized in the external links section. The last time that website was updated was over 2 years ago. (I'll ignore the fact that they refer to the Chicago Cardinals as the Chicago Cardinals and not the Racine Cardinals because it is not a reliable source.)
: This link should be deleted without prejudice.
66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see no complaints. I will edit the article accordingly. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links mistake 

message: I link to this article from Bert Bell so I want it to be better. I think the people involved in this article have done an absolutely fabulous job.
# external links:  I am going to remove this link without prejudice because it was last update over 2 years ago
# further reading: further reading needs to be reevalutated: It appears as Marc Maltby's belongs in it. I can not put it in because I have not read the other books in further reading...yet
# the use of Hickok.com and nfl.com as sources for the original teams is not a good idea. I would suggest, Carroll, Neft, and the professional football researchers associations are a vastly superior source of information (which is utilized in this article contemperaneously as citation 1) The NFL had to change their published history because of the PRFA. The NFL is a business and not a research organization.
# hickok.com is a specious source...I went to their feedback page and there was only 1 post by a user in the total lifetime of that website (at least 3 yeras). I do not believe anyone can construe that as a reliable source. Coenen published his book in 2005 and that website is circa 2008 and that website never challenged/nor corrected its information regarding Brick Muller's Californians of 1926 (and at least one other team) I want all the hickok.com stuff removed and other sources utilized. I have no idea who the owner of the website is. But there is an encyclopedia authored by a hickok
I don't mean to be a bad guy, but if a knowledgeable and intelligent wikipedia editor comes along and evaluates this article, then I think it will be dropped down to a GA class article. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 23:01, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am unhappy with this article 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :History of American football's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "sfmg":
From 1894 Stanford football team: Official results from 
From 1891 Stanford football team: Results from 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 11:27, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:History of American football]] 

message: The Early history of American football article will begin with a section called "History of American football before 1869".  The next section will be "Early intercolleigate football history (1869-1933)" and include the subsections discussing three different periods: the period between 1869 and 1875 called the 'Pioneer Period'; the years 1876–93 called the 'Period of the American Intercollegiate Football Association'; and the years 1894–1933 called the 'Period of Rules Committees and Conferences'.  The final section will be entitled "Early history of professional football (1892-1933)".  Sections concerning the early history of high school football and the game outside of the US should also be included.  ParkH.Davis (talk) 18:25, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a problem with this proposal, if you are willing to do the work. Frankly, I've got enough half-finished projects underway already. And welcome! — DeeJayK (talk) 19:16, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh good, we have Parke H. Davis here. Though I am wary of copying his schema outright.  My vision is colored by a southern lens, but compare the history I go over in College Football All-Southern Team. 1933 is also the first season for the Southeastern Conference. Others use 1945 (WW2), 1930 (such as this very article), and 1917–20 (WW1, game's semi-centennial) as cut-offs. Cake (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

text: Any text copied from one article to another needs to be attributed. One option listed at WP:PATT is to use the  template.—Bagumba (talk) 21:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for [[Early history of American football]] and [[Modern history of American football]] articles 

message: This page should now be moved to become a disambiguation page.  I do not believe that I am autoconfirmed yet and therefore do not have the authority to move pages.  I would appreciate any tips and/or help that can be given concerning this process.  ParkH.Davis (talk) 02:12, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have thought History of American football would summarize the spunout articles per WP:SS, and not simply be a disambiguation page. Being that it is currently a featured article, I think it is a valid standalone topic.—Bagumba (talk) 03:07, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you suggest I go about consoldating information?  How much should I remove, if any?  ParkH.Davis (talk) 05:03, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If you haven't read Wikipedia:Summary_style#Basic_technique already, that is the general technique I'd apply.  Sorry, I personally won't be getting involved with copyediting this article. Perhaps , who initiated the above #Length_of_article thread and brought this article to FA status, can be of assistance. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 22:21, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI:  in their post above says they are busy, so may take a while to get back here.—Bagumba (talk) 17:23, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to [[History of American football (disambiguation)]] 

message: As this article has been split, it has become clear that this article is no longer necesary as a comprehensive article, but should instead serve as a simple summary.  I am not sure how much should (or can) be removed.  Can anyone advise me on how to go forward with this process? ParkH.Davis (talk) 23:55, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: For starters, don't delete 95% of the article without leaving an edit summary. Meters (talk) 23:58, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Try suggesting the changes you think are appropriate and your reasoning and see if there is consensus. What seems obvious to you may not be obvious to others. Meters (talk) 00:04, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that much or even all of this article is now redundant, but I'm not sure where to go with it. The history of the other two articles depends on the contribution history of this article so we can't get rid of it (the history was not carried over to the new articles) but there does not seem to be any real need for content here now. Once we remove modern history and early history, there simply isn't any history left to discuss in this article. We end up with a placeholder article that points to the other articles. In any case, whatever we do with this article slow down a bit and ensure that the remaining article is not broken. Meters (talk) 00:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs serious editing down for size 

message: Is this article being deleted? Has this been started and if so will it be best that I remove that subsection? Right now I will insert the info from the subsection into an Andy Smith entry in the Early History article. Rybkovich (talk) 19:59, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is an inbetween place right now.  Its status as a featured article is making it hard to abbreviate it right now, but pending review of its featured article status, this article is likely to be significantly shortened, especially as the excessive size of this article was the primary reason for its split in the first place.  ParkH.Davis (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  I entered an Andy Smith subsection section into 1920s coaches 

message: I have begun the process of abridgment and summarization.  I would appreciate any advice/help which anyone could provide to this project.  Please feel free to re-insert any content which you believe should still be included and feel free to rearrange any elements which you feel are out of place.  I also changed the headings so that they resemble those of Early history of American football and Modern history of American football.   ParkH.Davis (talk) 04:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In the earlier version of this article, the major sections were for the two major levels of football: college and pro. However, the proposed splitting is to group the history chronologically, combining all levels.  It seems like this would result in a major shifting of content in History of American football, as opposed to just summarizing existing content.  Is the new chronological grouping important enough to perform this type of overhaul?—Bagumba (talk) 05:06, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The chronological grouping is based on the previous one and is still split into intercollegiate, professional, high school/youth, and outside the US.  The change I am making is to bring this article into compatability with the "Early history" and "Modern history" articles so that there is not a major difference in the content.  ParkH.Davis (talk) 05:14, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In the earlier version of this article, section 2 was for college, and 3 was for pro. Even the lead had one paragraph for college, and another for pro.  As "Early history" and "Modern history" were recently created, and are not FA yet, is there a compelling reason to make this article a slave to the newer ones, instead of visa versa?—Bagumba (talk) 05:24, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In the current version of the article, section 2 is for college, and 3 is for pro, just as in the previous version; all I did was add years to increase clarity and consistency.  The lead retains all of the text from the previous version (i made one new paragraph break).  The two new articles are most certainly better than their ratings imply.  I have requested peer reviews for both of the new articles, hopefully beginning the process to increase the rating of both of those articles.  ParkH.Davis (talk) 05:35, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: At Wikipedia:Summary_style#Basic_technique, it says: "Ideally many of these sections will eventually provide summaries of separate articles on the subtopics covered in those sections. Each subtopic or child article is a complete encyclopedic article in its own right and contains its own lead section that is quite similar to the summary in its parent article."  Not that it is necessarily required, but I just don't see how the use of summary style can be neatly applied to pare down this article using the two new articles.  At any rate, these are just points to consider.  Good luck, and thanks for taking this on.—Bagumba (talk) 07:45, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abridgment and summarization   

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on History of American football. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://archive.is/20140506215258/http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/pac10/stanford/yearly_results.php?year=1892 to http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_ia/pac10/stanford/yearly_results.php?year=1892
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:27, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on History of American football. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081119234333/http://americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1988/6/1988_6_102.shtml to http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1988/6/1988_6_102.shtml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071015172106/http://sportsecyclopedia.com/nfl/comish/tagliabue.html to http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nfl/comish/tagliabue.html
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:26, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: US Football is clearly derived from Rugby, which is clearly an offshoot of football. Handling the ball is more or less obligatory in the first two and in the third is confined to the two goalkeepers during play. The term 'goalkeeper' is significant. Outside play any player can handle the ball. Football, as the name specifices, is played (only) with the feet. Use of the feet in the other two seems to be done on a limited scale. Any connection between the American handling game and the Britisn (now world) non-handling game is pretty tenuous Pamour (talk) 16:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of the game 

message: Any objections to throwing this article into the current pile of potential TFA reruns (currently being developed at User:Dank/Sandbox/2)? Any cleanup needed, apart from the 3 dead links? The Other professional leagues section has some text that needs references, and the last two small sections might need references (or maybe just a little rearranging). The lead has a clean-up tag. - Dank (push to talk) 13:59, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Other Leagues section seems to lack any contentious statements; the leagues so noted existed and have well-referenced articles on their own.  If anything, I may remove some of the lesser notable leagues, but for most of the other leagues that made a notable stab at becoming another major league (WFL, USFL, XFL) the statement that they existed seems uncontentious.  The minor leagues (UFL, etc.) can probably be dropped from the text.  --Jayron32 14:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Jayron. - Dank (push to talk) 15:04, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  there were already archive pages for each of the links identified as dead by the tool. I just improved the formatting to make them more prominent. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:47, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I get a blank screen when I click on http://www.the-game.org/history-timeline-harvard.htm (the cite right after " which played at Harvard, Yale and Princeton"). - Dank (push to talk) 01:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fixed it with an Internet Archive link. I'll see what I can do about the unreferenced bits, time permitting. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:06, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  TFA rerun 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on History of American football. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091019121221/http://www.texasalmanac.com/history/highlights/swc/ to http://www.texasalmanac.com/history/highlights/swc/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:57, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* 
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:21, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: I searched within the text for "ball" (no quotes but spaces before and after) and found nothing about origin of the shape of the American football.  Seems a worthy topic for inclusion!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curly2004 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably mentioned instead at Ball (gridiron football). ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 17:01, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shape of the ball 

message: There's no reason for the mention of the North Carolina-Duke football game in this article. However, if it is kept the citation to Jim Sumner's 1990 article should be removed because the article is factually incorrect. The game did not take place at the State Fairgrounds in Raleigh, but rather at the Athletic Park, or Ball Park as it is noted in the newspaper of the day. Jamesleegilbert (talk) 05:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Carolina-Duke football game