Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 8

message: Adolf Hitler (April 20, 1889–April 30, 1945) was the Führer und Reichskanzler (leader and chancellor) of Germany from 1933 to his death. He was leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party (better known as the Nazi Party). At the height of his Third Reich, the armies of Nazi Germany and its allies controlled the larger part of Europe.
Hitler began an expansion of Germany through the annexation of Austria and invasion of Czechoslovakia. Historians advance many causes of World War II in Europe, but it was Germany's invasion of Poland that provoked a declaration of war by the United Kingdom and France. The resulting total war between Allied and Axis Powers led to the deaths of over 30 million people. The racial policies Hitler directed culminated in the systematic extermination of over 11 million people, including 6 million Jews, in a genocide now known as the Holocaust.
He led Germany from the depths of post-World War I defeat to be one of the most powerful nations in the world; however, the war he started was ultimately lost, and the planned "thousand-year Reich" ended shortly after his death, reportedly by suicide, in the Führerbunker in Berlin during the final days of the war.
===Please discuss===
Hmm. 4.250.198.126 just cut everything to leave just this two-sentence intro:
:Adolf Hitler (April 20, 1889–April 30, 1945) was the Führer und Reichskanzler (leader and chancellor) of Germany from 1933 to his death. He was leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party (better known as the Nazi Party).
I don't know whether this should be considered good or bad. On the one hand it suffers from the "Hitler was a German politician" syndrome (that is, it completely avoids everything of interest to Hitler's life); this is more like Britannica does it, but it's not usual on Wikipedia, and it also suggests that this is all there is to tell on Hitler if you had to summarize it.
On the other hand, it's hard to argue that what is there isn't completely neutral. That's a lot of endless discussion out of the window right there. Opinions? JRM · Talk 14:59, 2005 May 16 (UTC)
*One can be non-neutral by omission as well. Demi T/C 17:40, 2005 May 16 (UTC)
While one would wish to at least add "known for starting WWII and killing lots of Jews" one can not do that on wikipedia without opening the pandora's box of unending battle. At least a short intro like this keeps the fight and reverts to subsections and also allows a full discussion where those topics ARE mentioned so people can't cut off the other side of the story by saying it has to be kept short. In a provocative subject, a short intro helps keep the wasted energy to a minimum. 4.250.198.126 16:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: By all accounts hitler didn't want to fight england. He also may not have wanted to fight france (he thought they were both aryan, after all). He probably thought no one would be ballsy enough to do anything about him chopping up poland. A perfectly good question is why england and france didn't declare war on the soviet union, and why russia isn't blamed for starting WWII? Sam Spade  19:22, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Sometimes we make life too complicated. Sure Hitler probably thought he could get away with what he was doing, just like thie guy who broke into my car thought he would get away with it. Doesn't mean he wasn't responsible. DJ Clayworth 20:40, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: Hmm. 4.250.198.126 just cut everything to leave just this two-sentence intro:
:Adolf Hitler (April 20, 1889–April 30, 1945) was the Führer und Reichskanzler (leader and chancellor) of Germany from 1933 to his death. He was leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party (better known as the Nazi Party).
I don't know whether this should be considered good or bad. On the one hand it suffers from the "Hitler was a German politician" syndrome (that is, it completely avoids everything of interest to Hitler's life); this is more like Britannica does it, but it's not usual on Wikipedia, and it also suggests that this is all there is to tell on Hitler if you had to summarize it.
On the other hand, it's hard to argue that what is there isn't completely neutral. That's a lot of endless discussion out of the window right there. Opinions? JRM · Talk 14:59, 2005 May 16 (UTC)
*One can be non-neutral by omission as well. Demi T/C 17:40, 2005 May 16 (UTC)
While one would wish to at least add "known for starting WWII and killing lots of Jews" one can not do that on wikipedia without opening the pandora's box of unending battle. At least a short intro like this keeps the fight and reverts to subsections and also allows a full discussion where those topics ARE mentioned so people can't cut off the other side of the story by saying it has to be kept short. In a provocative subject, a short intro helps keep the wasted energy to a minimum. 4.250.198.126 16:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: By all accounts hitler didn't want to fight england. He also may not have wanted to fight france (he thought they were both aryan, after all). He probably thought no one would be ballsy enough to do anything about him chopping up poland. A perfectly good question is why england and france didn't declare war on the soviet union, and why russia isn't blamed for starting WWII? Sam Spade  19:22, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Sometimes we make life too complicated. Sure Hitler probably thought he could get away with what he was doing, just like thie guy who broke into my car thought he would get away with it. Doesn't mean he wasn't responsible. DJ Clayworth 20:40, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Please discuss

message: There's been a lot of wrangling over this part of the intro. I believe previous discussions have established it's desirable to mention Hitler's connection with establishing, or implementing, or directing these racial policies, though the exact verbiage has been a matter of some debate. I thought "directed" would be good, since it didn't imply Hitler invented these policies, which after all were influenced by others and grew out of racism and antisemitism that already existed; yet he did lead the effort and they were certainly "his" policies (we had a version that described them this way, but I thought that left no room for others who shared the policies).
Haham hanuka has several times removed mention of Hitler from the policies section, describing them only as policies of Nazi Germany. I invite others to suggest wording of this section of the intro that might be better. Perhaps "The racial policies Hitler and others directed...?" "...implemented...?" Demi T/C 17:20, 2005 May 19 (UTC)
:Incidentally, I have inserted "that" into that sentence for stylistic reasons. Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 17:25, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The racial policies Hitler directed... 

message: I don't think this is an improvement, because a) it's not clear who's saying it, thus it's weaselly and b) it's not clear whether the weaselliness applies to the fact Hitler died, or that it was by suicide. I have left it alone, in part because we're not well-served by the Hitler's death article in trying to summarize, but I would like others' opinions. I have, however, restated "his dreams..." as overly prosaic. Demi T/C 00:51, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
:In my not so humble opinion we are putting way too much weight on small minority speculations and unfounded rumours by including that "said to have" part in the intro. It opens up for the possibility that he actually didn't commit suicide and even escaped. He didn't. Just as Elvis is dead, the Earth isn't 6000 years old and the aliens didn't build the pyramids, Hitler didn't escape to Argentina. There are people questioning all of those statements, but we can't drop "said to have"s all over the wikipedia because of them. I'd like the intro to read: Hitler died by suicide. Because he did. And thats how every other wikipedia states it (that I have checked), not to say every other encyclopedia. But we've had this debate on en before, and I don't have any hopes of getting ridd of the weaselwords this time either. They are sort of a compromise, and I'm only glad nobody is trying to be consistant and add question marks after the date of death in the header, too. Shanes 02:15, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Elvis#Death_and_burial. Sam Spade 23:50, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hitler is said to have died" 

message: I've removed the following text, I don't think this stuff is suitable for encyclopedia article.
Please DO NOT revert it. --Haham hanuka 14:50, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted text 

message: Hitler has left an indelible mark on mankind's perception of the ultimate villain. In recent times, it has become common practice to compare all megalomaniac villains in popular culture to Hitler. Among others, he has been compared to Saruman in the book Lord of the Rings, The Emperor in Star Wars, and Dr. Doom in the Marvel universe.
Tolkien, I believe, specifically denied that Saruman was inspired by or analog to Hitler. The comparisons were made because he wrote a good part of LTR during WW2. I'm happy to see the above was deleted, it's too fuzzy and likely overstated, unreferenced, not encyclopedic and the term villain seems somehow too narrow, even misleading. Besides, I'm one of those who think making AH into a characature of evil isn't helpful, since it weakens peoples' ability to spot the next genocidal sociopath who shows up in the guise of a charismatic, talented populist politician... along these same lines even Charles Chaplin, after the war, said he regretted having satirized AH. Saying any of that in the article would be unencyclopedic as well. One might rather be happy with keeping the article objective, since the documented background on this topic speaks plainly, glaringly. Wyss 15:40, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hitler and Popular Culture