Talk:Kven/Archive 2

message: It seems this page has used the highest number possible to find in sources on the internet. The page being linked might not be the best reference since it is a page created to promote Kvens. But it points out that there are no certain numbers on the Kven population. It also gives two numbers. One at 10 000-15 000 from a Parliamentary inquiry on national minorities in Norway made in 2000/2001. And the one used here on ca. 50-60 000 is based on a medical survey on heart disease made in Finnmark and Troms in 1987 where 25 % of the participants answered they had Finnish anscestry. I belive a Parliamentary inquiry on national minorities in Norway is more credible and that the number used in this article will unfortunately have to be reduced to 10-15 000. Inge 18:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Number of kvens depends on what do you mean with being a kven. Whenever you decided that you may start the discussion of how many.--84.216.53.225 13:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see the discussion in the next section for the definition and why the current numbers are used.Labongo 12:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The number of Kvens 

message: The page is currently protected, so I have not made any changes (great if someone else is cleaning up the article). However, I would suggest the following reorganization/ rewrite of the paper: (i) remove the Contemporary Kvens section, since the entire article is about them, (ii) remove all references to the controversial Kvenland, (iii) shorten and focus the section about migrations, (iv) add a section about the Norwegian assimilation policy, including the difference in the 1980s with regards to Samis and Kvens, (v) add a section about the cultural awakening of the Kvens including the debates in 1990s about who is Kven and whether Kainu is a dialect or language, (vi) add relevant links to Kven organizations etc., and (vii) remove the irrelevant references.--Labongo 02:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since there have been many controversial theories, misquotations and errors in this article, I decided to remove all references and further readings. Only references about contemporary Kvens should be added.--Labongo 02:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I removed all mentions of Kainu as an official name for the Kven language. This is not true. The Norwegian Kven Organization uses kvenske språket (the Kven language). The same does all Norwegian parliament reports. Only wikipedia seems to use Kainu.--Labongo 02:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I added more details to the Assimilation Policy section. My source has been http://www.antirasistisk-senter.no/infobanken/dokumenter/samora/5-01/anstrengtforhold.html--Labongo 02:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are writing a bunch of garbage !  Where is your reliable source about the kvens paying taxes to the Norvegians in the Middle Ages ?  In fact, the Norwegians famously eventully lost the taxation war of the Samis to the Kvens, as the earlier Kven text was reflecting accurately !  Set the old text back please, the present-day and the past Kvens undevided - Wikipedians against vandalism 15:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To me the article looks now very accurate and well-referenced. Lappland was taxed by many parties during Middle Ages and later, and exact borders were only drawn in the 19th century ("Kvens" had very little part in that game, though). Demand to have past and present kvens in the same article is not a good idea, since the content is very different and usage of "kven" has clearly changed during the 1000 years that separates these two items. --Drieakko 19:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The source is: Niemi, E. (1994), Kvenene og staten – et historisk riss. In: Torekoven Strøm (ed.), Report from the seminar ”Kvenene – en glemt minoritet?” 14.11.94 at the University of Tromsø/ Tromsø Museum. Kvens in the context of this article are Finnish speaking immigrants in Northern Norway. The Danish/Norwegian tax records shows that there were a few Finnish speaking people in Northern Norway in the 16th century.--Labongo 20:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought I had forgot to add the reference to the section being critizised. But it turns out that the reference above was already in place.--Labongo 21:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested reorganization 

message: I added the section ‘’Kvens vs. Sami’’. My intention is to inform the readers about current issues in Kven politics. However, the information is based on what I remember reading in various Kven and Sami newspapers, and information I have found on the Kven Organization webpage. In other words, I have no references. Therefore I am not sure whether the section meets the standards of Wikipedia, and I would appreciate comments on whether to keep the section or not, and/or suggestions for improvement.--Labongo 02:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kven vs. Sami 

message: It turns out that there is also a group in Sweden that calls themselves Kvens. It seems that they have only used the term for a few years, and that the motivation is political. I think this article should be about the Norwegian minority, but have added ‘‘disclaimer’’ section about the Swedish Kvens.--Labongo 00:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There may also be a group in Finland using the Kven term for the same reasons.--Labongo 00:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  About the Kvens in Finland. The Sweden 'Kvens' call them lappalaiset (Lapp is also used about Sami in Finnish), while they call themselves lantalaiset. In addition, the term kveeni  is used in Finnish. So I think I will ignore this rather confusing part about the term Kven.--Labongo 01:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

text: "Kveeni" in Finnish refers to Kvens in Norway. I have never heard or seen it used in Finland for any other purpose about the present-day groups of people. --Drieakko 05:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the article should state that "there is no evidence that Kvenland existed in northern Sweden" since the current phrase "are not descendants of the medieval Kvens" is probably not correct since Kvens mentioned in early documents meant probably just any Finns. Swedish Kvens, if descending from later Finnish immigrants, were thus descendants of medieval Kvens like all Finns. --Drieakko 13:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedish Kvens 

message: I Quote: However, this group has no distinct culture, has not been known as an ethnical group in recent history, and there is little evidence that they are the descendants of the medieval Kvens." Well, there are only two groups in Sweden who are rein deer herders and members of Saami villages: The Saami and the Tornedalians (or Kvens as some of them call themselves), plus Swedish-speaking Kainulaisia in Kainus (very important fact). And the article writes "no disctinct culture". Please, try to follow facts. The rein deer herding is a very old part of the Tornedalian culture.--217.208.231.130 11:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand your arguments. Are you claiming that Kvens, Tornedalians, Samis(?) and Kainulaisia are all Kvens? Also, are you claiming that reindeer herding is an important part of the Tornedalian culture, and that Tornedalian reindeer herding differs from Sami reindeer herding? The main point of the section is that there are people outside Norway who claim to be Kvens for political reasons. If you have any evidence that the claims in this section (or the provided reference) are incorrect, then please provide links. Labongo 23:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: From the reference for that section "Thomas Wallerström är docent i Nordskandinavisk historisk arkeologi [...] Enligt honom anses inte kvänerna ha en kultur som är speciellt utmärkande. Levnadssättet bland folket i Tornedalen skiljer sig inte märkbart åt från det hos folk i andra älvdalar i norra Sverige, vilket talar emot kvänernas anspråk på att vara en etnisk grupp och ett eget ursprungsfolk. [...]  Det är en väldigt sen etnisk mobilisering som försiggår [...]". If you know of any articles that contradicts these claims, please provide links since I would be interested in reading these.Labongo 04:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedish Kvens and facts of distinct culture