Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports/Archive 4

message: :Provision of Destinations no longer served to give the historical context of see Talk:Glasgow International Airport for specific discussions. (I've moved this from the project page to here for discussion, and the text below from the GLA talk page /wangi 07:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Information 

message: I've noticed that in a few articles users have been creating a separate section with a list of nonstop destinations from a given airport (such as Sky Harbor International Airport). This is in addition to the list of airlines and destinations and seems totally redundant to me, and if nothing else it makes the articles really long. Since I haven't seen anything about it on the project pages, I assume it isn't part of this. Also, DFW has its own separate page for this list, which I listed for deletion. Anyone have any comments? Dbinder 13:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd prefer to delete the section completely! Really that would lead to such a mess of a list. Thanks/wangi 17:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I oppose deletion. I will agree only on move to WikiTravel and some system will be in place to get externals links (like Аmadeus and others сomputer reservations systems) to get up to date information based on flight numbers. --TAG 00:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Flight numbers can and do change.  Adding those would clutter the list and are not encylopedic.  Even small airports can have a large number of flights to a hub airport.  Consider how many entries you would need for say for LGA to BOS. Vegaswikian 02:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  For large and well known airports there is no issues to figure out if they are still connected. But for some airports there is no combined schedules and you have to collect all information on case by case basic from airlines (even oag.com fail !!). My proposal is to list flight numbers in html comments or edit summary - not in main article content. TAG 11:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Destination Lists as separate section

message: I think that Wikipedia should place the logo of an airline before the airlines' name is displayed on airport pages.  Of course, if multiple airlines, they should be the same size.  I think it will help people more quickly identify the airline of choice or details.  Photos catch the eye of a person reading an article or something in these lines.  It will make the page more quickly identified and will benefit to everyone.  I have tried this idea with a few airports, but they were removed do to constraints.  I did not like the way I displayed them, but it was the only thing I knew how to do.  So, I ask that you consider and implement my idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Golich17 (talk • contribs) 
:This was brought up once before. The main objections were that the large number of images would slow down the server, and more importantly, would probably not qualify as fair use. Dbinder (talk) 04:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I second Dbinder's comments. Also, the page will be cluttered and unencyclopedic with the images; definitely not a aesthetic enhancement. --physicq210 04:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: We use the airline logos under fair use... (I think it's a bad idea) /wangi 08:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To expand on that last comment... specifically I don't think we can argue this would be fair use: Wikipedia:Fair use#Policy section #3, #8 and #10c. Thanks/wangi 10:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Airline Logos Dispayed Next to Airlines on Airport Pages 

message: I am noticing that in the last day or so there has been a bunch of systematic subtle vandalism attacking airport articles - apparently "the airport vandal," User: Philp the Moose. For instance, bogus non-existent service was added to University Park Airport and an entire section was added to Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport claiming that Phoenix would become a United Airlines hub. Please be on the lookout for this stuff - and I'm wholesale adding airport articles to my watchlist. FCYTravis 06:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And watch out for personal attacks resulting from reverting. See  if you want an example. --physicq210 01:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just caught 24.47.246.244 adding false information about JetBlue to a few articles.  He kept adding false JetBlue information to MSP, by claiming they fly from there to BOS, JFK, LAS, and YUL... and claiming that YUL was going to be a new destination of JetBlue in the future.  Also adding to a few articles that JetBlue was going to be joining Star Alliance, and also adding unconfirmed (yet plausible) service to STL.  I gave him two warnings before he stopped, but I think he might have just changed his IP if he's AOL.  Keep on the lookout for this vandal or others like him in the future. -- SmthManly / ManlyTalk / ManlyContribs 15:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep an eye on 203.166.63.4 on the Melbourne Airport & Qantas articles, who has been adding speculative & timetable faux destinations to various airlines, and also has been adding domestic destinations to overseas airlines (although overseas airlines dont have rights to carry domestic pax). --Arnzy (whats up?) 09:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systematic airport destination vandalism 

message: There have been recent discussion on the Glasgow Aiport discussion page on how to refer to the airport that goes by the IATA code of KEF Keflavík International Airport. Have a look at Talk:Glasgow_International_Airport#Reykjavik-Keflavik. Should it be Keflavik or Reykjavik-Keflavik? Reykjavik has a closer airport RKV - Reykjavík Airport. My feeling is that I have no view providing it is consistent across Wikipedia. If the intention is to call it Reykjavik-Keflavik then the entry Keflavík International Airport should be re-titled accordingly and all the associated references should also be checked for consistency and adjusted as appropriate. -- Pencefn 22:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a discussion as to what the airport is to be called on the airports wikipedia page (wich of course should be the Anglified version of the airports name.) This discussions is as to what the destination should be listed to under the Airlines and destinations section of other airports pages (i.e. under the format Scandinavian Airline Systems (London-Heathrow, Oslo) etc) Arsenikk 07:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Under the destinations, it should be Reykjavik only, not Keflavik.  Just like you'd put Las Vegas, and not McCarran.  Of course, in case of two airports, we specifcy, such as New York-LaGuardia, and New York-JFK.  In this case, it should be Reykjavik-Keflavik, as it is the airport serving Reykjavik, named Keflavik (after the town it is located in).  -- SmthManly / ManlyTalk / ManlyContribs 15:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two airports serving Reykjavík: Keflavík International Airport (international) and Reykjavík Airport (domestic). Thats why it has to be listed as Reykjavík-Keflavík. Arsenikk 16:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keflavik or Reykjavik-Keflavik? 

message: As with spelling and grammar on Wikipedia, there are various ways to number runways in the US and in the rest of the world. The FAA does not use leading zeros on any of its publications, nor do airports in the US commonly use a leading zero in the runway number. Given the precedent of using US spelling in US-themed articles and Commonwealth spelling in Commonwealth-themed articles, it seems reasonable that runways in the US should not be referred to with the leading zero. (It seems even more reasonable that runways anywhere should not be referred to with the leading zero unless the certifying authority refers to them with a leading zero in official publications.) In other words, if there's not a leading zero painted on the runway, Wikipedia shouldn't be artificially introducing one. Comments?--chris.lawson 22:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When I flew through SFO and DEN last year I did not see the numbers painted on the Runway, however I did observe the signs on the entry taxiways. I am fairly certain that at SFO I observed runway 01R, and 06L at DEN. Do the signs on the taxiways correspond with the numbers painted on the associated runways? Pencefn 18:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't speak to the signs you saw directly, but Google Maps has pretty convincing evidence that KSFO and KDEN have single digits painted on the runways (although there is no runway 6 at KDEN).McNeight 18:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected about the DEN runways - was reading the wrong page in my notes. A quick check on the Denver International Airport page on WP shows the runways designated 7-25 and 8-26. No leading zeros on the single digits. Makes me doubt what I saw at SFO. Pencefn 20:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never seen the leading zero painted on a runway in the US.  I don't think that the leading zero is included on the taxiway signs either (see this pic from Tulsa International Airport for an example) —Mets501 (talk) 21:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also looked at satellite images from several different airports in the US: there is no leading zero pained on the runway, and there is no leading zero in what is printed on the ground at the runway hold line. —Mets501 (talk) 21:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The leading zeros are used in the rest of the world, however, from what I can tell; they are even printed on the runway. —Mets501 (talk) 21:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The example signage in the AIM does not depict leading zeros on any runway direction signs or runway holding position signs, so I rather doubt there are leading zeros in the signage at KSFO.--chris.lawson 21:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: It's simply incorrect. There is no good reason for a known and admitted inaccuracy to exist in a Wikipedia article. Your assumption of WP:POINT on my part is unwarranted and uncalled for. I would like for someone to review the discussion, keeping in mind that the article will likely receive a great deal of scrutiny by the media, experts, and that Wangi admits the image is incorrectly labeled yet insists on keeping it.  65.127.231.6 09:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not inaccurate, it's a style issue. /wangi 11:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I've removed the leading zeros from that image and re-inserted it. —Mets501 (talk) 12:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I would say yes remove the leading zeros from them unless a reliable source proves otherwise. I've also updated the instructions at Wikipedia:WikiProject Airports/infobox to cover it. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried the replacement regex on a couple of airports: works perfectly.  Just waiting for a couple more nods before mass changing them. —Mets501 (talk) 16:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Updating the infobox guide makes sense, I don't see the need to mass update however (I mean, are you going to "correct" the non-US ones to include a zero too?). Thanks/wangi 16:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mass updating is no more work for me than pressing the start button and letting my bot run.  If we know for sure which other countries always use the leading zero, I could make sure all of those articles have the leading zero, but I'm not going to do that for now. —Mets501 (talk) 16:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I didn't start yet.  If I exclude pages in :Category:United States Air Force bases, :Category:United States Coast Guard Air Stations, :Category:United States Navy air stations, :Category:United States Army airfields, and :Category:United States Navy air stations, that should be fine, right? —Mets501 (talk) 18:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so, but that relies on pages being correctly categorized, which they should be, but aren't always. Is it possible to check for "Type: Military" in that field of the infobox? (I don't know what sort of conditionals or lookups bots are capable of, sorry.) Thanks, --MCB 00:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course! :-) I can exclude that category and any pages that match the regex: type( )*=( )*(M|m)ilitary. —Mets501 (talk) 02:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good -- thanks, Mets! --MCB 06:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Make sure that you don't forget to include airports on the non-contiguous US mainland. Hawaii and Alaska's ICAO codes are prefixed with P, not K. Hope it helps make the automation more useful. :) Thadius856 17:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I think I'm going to request permission to start the run, since no one here objections. —Mets501 (talk) 18:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks. 'preciate it.--chris.lawson 00:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Found a few more and removed them. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No leading zeros on US runways 

message: I was just talking to User:Andrewb729 about his recent changes to some Florida Airports, and maybe others, which change the seasonal notation from [seasonal] next to a destionation, to a footnote type format where seasonal is at the bottom and those destinations have a small number one next to them.  I reverted him and he argued it; I've noticed some others have also reverted him, so I figured, after speaking to him a bit, to come here and propose it on his behalf, since I think it's a good idea.  What do you all think of changing the [seasonal] ort (seasonal) notations next to destinations to the footnote format? -- SmthManly / ManlyTalk / ManlyContribs 21:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notations for seasonal entries 

message: I can't figure out how to request an article. The link on the portal points to a parent, one where "Air Travel" apparently is now missing. :( How would I make a request for "Rubberized Friction Seal Coat" (RFSC)? Sorry for the newbishness. Thadius856 02:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, requested. Thanks! Thadius856 19:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request Article 

message: While just removing the leading zero I noticed that some airports have, what seems to me, unnecessary duplication of information in articles. An example of this (and my removal of it) is here. As you can see the runway data and map links were in both the infobox and the article. I have been removing them as I find them but if it contains information, as the Beaver Island Airport did, in article not covered then I left it in. What does anyone else feel about this? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the info in the article gives no more information than the infobox, I am in favor of removing it. —Mets501 (talk) 02:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry it took so long to get back to commenting here. I, myself, do not remove the runways under "Facilities" in the article. This area of the article itself gives runway widths, which I feel are very important. Were it possible to do runway widths in the infobox, however, I'd likely agree with you guys. thadius856talk 18:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Information included

message: I just asked Mets501 if his bot could do some more work. He says that it could but requires consensus first. The first type can be seen at Barnstable Municipal Airport. The runway should be in the style XX/XX and not XX-XX. The second I don't have an example for right at hand, but runways should be listed as 10/28 and not 28/10. The lower number should be first. Does anyone have any objections? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 02:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see why not. I haven't seen any problems with the last series of edits by his bot. I'll support as long as it's an attended bot. I'm just a li'l edgy about full automation. Thadius856 09:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would not be an attended bot.  Rest assured, however, that the bot would only change a dash to a slash in the runways or fix the number order, and do nothing else. —Mets501 (talk) 11:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. If you feel that it's safe, I'll trust your judgment. Be bold! Thadius856 19:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's perfectly safe: I just ran through almost all US Airport articles removing the leading zero from runway designations, and there were no issues. —Mets501 (talk) 21:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No objections: starting now. —Mets501 (talk) 21:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible bot work

message: I was under the impression that Air Force Bases were to be treated the same way as other airports. The infobox on Blytheville Air Force Base seems hand-made and custom to me. Should it be replaced with the standard infobox? Thadius856 00:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's sort of a special case since the airport is no longer named that, and is no longer an AFB. There is an article for Arkansas International Airport with the standard infobox. Personally, I think the Blytheville AFB article should not have an infobox at all, since it is, or should be, just a historical article about the AFB era there. I'm also wondering if the two articles shouldn't just be merged, with the Blythedale article forming the History section of the Arkansas International article. --MCB 04:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Air Force Bases 

message: Exactly how do we list helicopter airlines at an airport?  Do we just list them under airlines or do we use a new heading?  How about if the company runs sightseeing operations that don't land at a destination? Vegaswikian 07:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not exactly sure how to list them, but I'd say that if they are sightseeing or have no destination airport that they should be listed as local flights, similar to the method for logging such flights in logbooks. thadius856talk 18:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listing helicopter airlines  

message: After looking through the military airbases and then the satellite images I found the following runways all contain leading zeros:
* Edwards Air Force Base
* Elmendorf Air Force Base
* NAS Whiting Field - North
* NAS Whiting Field - South
* Naval Air Station Pensacola
* Westover Air Reserve Base / Metropolitan Airport
The last one I changed the infobox as it was missing the zero.
The following satellite photos shows that the runways of the following do not have a leading zero:
* Bucholz Army Airfield
* Cairns Army Airfield
* Naval Air Facility El Centro
* Naval Air Station Fallon
* Naval Air Station Point Mugu
* Sierra Vista Municipal Airport
* Southern California Logistics Airport
None of them have been changed as I wanted someone else to double check first.
:Changed them all. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 03:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Leading zeros on US military runways

message: Okay, so rejoice is a bit of a strong word. However, a week ago, I proposed a new stub category for Austalian airports. While it passed in a modified version (Oceania stub and cat, Australia stub upmerged to Oceania cat), I'm happy to say that they're now up and functional. You can now use  and .
But wait, it gets better! While I was stub sorting them into their new categories, I noticed that there were over 55 of each type, more than I had found during the initial roundup. There were enough to justify making the Australia airport stubs their own category.
Hope it helps everybody out a bit. Yes, even the... *shudder*... Kiwi's. (Just kidding, hehe :) thadius856talk 04:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oceanians rejoice! 

message: Is it just me, or has anybody else noticed that many of the larger airports are turning into link farms? I'm ecstatic that I haven't seen linked destinations (yet), but sometimes the wikilinking is getting way out of hand. Check it out...  thadius856talk 21:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link Farms 

message: I have been reverting edits by 200.122.86.50 for a while now, since this unidentified user keeps adding destinations without providing sources for them. And as far as I know, these future destinations were not even announced by Air Algérie itself. The aforementioned user also adds Air Algérie destinations to certain US airports, so I'd appreciate if other people would watch this user as well. Elektrik Blue 82 21:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Air Algérie destinations]] and related articles 

message: I received the template invitation on the talk page for Christmas Valley Airport (which I wrrote because I think CV is a pretty cool place).  Anyhoozle, I hammered it out.  Have a look as to whether that's what you are after. --Duff 10:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Participant Tinkerers Presenting Results

message: Please consider adding an external link for the information on airports my company (FlightStats) publishes. Like FlightAware we have FAA based flight status for airports in the US. Unlike FlightAware we are global (covering a vast majority of the world's airports) and also have multiple data sources that allow us to show gate and runway times (FlightAware just shows runway). 
We also have some other content that we publish. We publish weather and real-time airport performance for most of the world's airports. We have security wait times (TSA based) for airports within the US but we also show historical trends which the TSA does not. We also have FAA delay information for the US airports, but unlike the FAA also publish historical delay information (including which flights were affected by the delay). 
Here are some sample URLs so that you can see what we offer: airport outside US - Narita Airport, airport inside US - O'Hare International Airport, full flight departures page O'Hare departures, ORD Security Wait Times, ATL Airport Delays — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottHopkins (talk • contribs) 
:Thanks for the URL's. While I don't speak for my fellow editors, I can say that it's appreciated that you didn't start link spamming articles or modifying it into the templates. Here's an excerpt from WP:SPAM:
::Review your intentions. Wikipedia is not a space for personal promotion or the promotion of products, services, Web sites, fandoms, ideologies, or other memes. If you're here to tell readers how great something is, or to get exposure for an idea or product that nobody's heard of yet, you're in the wrong place. Likewise, if you're here to make sure that the famous Wikipedia cites you as the authority on something (and possibly pull up your sagging PageRank) you'll probably be disappointed.
:Disclaimer aside, I took a look at your site. It does have some useful information, but it's riddled with way more ads than I'd like - 1 large letterbox flash ad and 3 Google Ad syndication boxes. If there were more content, like that of AirNav, I might be able to wrestle my conscience into submission... but as it stands, I'm going to hold off from linking to it. Thanks anywho. :) thadius856talk 21:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Link 

message: What's the correct category for this, "Airports in the People's Republic of China" or "Airports in the Tibet Autonomous Region". The first exists but the second does not. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 13:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say both into a China parent, but that'd likely offend. Tricky situation, but are there really airports in Tibet? thadius856talk 16:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Bangda Airport]]

message: I was just looking around WikiProject: Military History's project banner and was thinking that our banner could use an update similar to theirs. What would you guys this? Would a class and assessment system be useful? I sure think so.
I whipped something together and this is what I ended up with. Feel free to leave comments about it. Yes, there are red links, but those would be created if the template change was approved by everybody here (e.x. - class scale, assessment guidelines, etc).

	is part of WikiProject Airports, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to airports. If you would like to participate, you can [ edit] the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.''

----


WikiProject Airports To-do:

[ edit] 	
----


WikiProject Airports To-do:

[ edit] 

Aviation WikiPortal	
Aviation WikiPortal

So... how's it look? thadius856talk 20:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good, but I wouldn't have the "this article has not yet been assessed" stuff if the article doesn't have ratings.  If it has ratings, let the parameters show, otherwise hide them. —Mets501 (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's definitely possible, though my feeling was that if it was unassessed, it would have a much better chance of being assessed, both my those who are and aren't participants of the WikiProject. It would also raise awareness of the fact that we would have an assessment scale, possibly drawing new participants. thadius856talk 02:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed change to AirportProject template 

message: Airline destinations is proposed for deletion.  If interested, drop in on the discussion.  Vegaswikian 06:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Airline destinations AfD 

message: Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory.  This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you.  B2T2 22:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project directory 

message: A bot has classified the article on Lasham Airfield as needing a clean-up as part of the airports project.  I have no objection to anyone improving this article, but the possibilities are limited in this case. Lasham is not an airport and never has been. It is owned by a gliding club which allows a company called ATC to bring in Boeings for maintenance a few times a week. It is not used for any commercial flights. The suggested contents in your project page therefore do not seem to apply. You may wish the delete the tags that have just been added. However I will add any further information that you can propose. JMcC 07:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I saw this after I saw the tag removal. I restored the tag because my feeling is that hte project should cover all aerodromes and not just airports. By the way it's a human tagging them not a bot. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 10:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lasham Airfield

message: I'm being bold and creating my first table. Anyway, i was wondering if it is a good idea that i created a table showing which airport is served by what station and how. It is right now a user sub-page. Can someone give an opinion on this? I will eventually add links, just to note. I am also about to add Cardiff.
See User:Simply south/Airport stations
If all goes well this will be another template. Or is it too long?
I know i also need to rearrange the table alphabetically.
Opinions?
Simply south 12:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly. I didn't think about that. In that case, maybe i should list the stations which link to airports, but not in a template (or is this still going along the line of a travel guide, which i am suspecting?). Simply south 11:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Airport stations