Talk:History of the Netherlands

message: knap werk! - Mathijs
Dank je. - Andre Engels
Yes, very impressive! --LMS
You should work for the CIA. :-D (The entire history they collected was about 5 lines long) --KQ
I have amended the Belgian revolution a bit. You made it sound like the Flemings were forced into independence and though pro-French elements were responsible for igniting the revolt, the core sentiments among both Flemings and Walloons were more as I described IMHO. -- [[User:Scipius]
---
I added a little known fact about WWI and the German Army taking a short cut over a small bit of Lands of the Netherlands, maybe someone can add to this. -- Golf
---
I always learned in school that there was no actual relation between the old Frisians (in Roman times), and the later ones? The new frisians took up the name of the region. (the remark about "still do")
I think this section is not exactly accurate.
The history of this small country starts with its first inhabitants, hunters that lived during the last ice age thousands of years ago. Notable remains of that period include the monumental Hunebeds in the province Drenthe.
It makes it seem as if the hunebeds were put up by hunters during the last ice age, 8,000 BCE or so. According to a random google they were built between 3400 and 3200 BCE. That's  quite a huge distance in time. According to the same source the people who put up these monuments were early farmers. It's like confusing ancient egypt with the reign of Charlemaine.. Martijn faassen 23:12, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Old comments

message: I'd like to put this article on the main page, but the introduction could use some beefing up. Also, someone else noted that the painting (the Nightwatch) seems a bit arbitrary, and that a better painting (perhaps a painting of a historical event described in the article) would be better. →Raul654 00:56, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)
*Done. It think this nicely combines two erae in Dutch history. Junes 18:29, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro expansion request

message: Although this article is pretty good, and may have been good enough to be featured on Wikipedia in the past, I don't think it's living up to Wikipedia's current standards for featured articles. I mean, I have just added quite a considerable amount of additions and corrections, and I still feel like there's lots missing/wrong. For instance: the introduction is really odd, there is nothing about peoples coming in before the Romans (Batafs, Westgoths, the like), the Holy Roman Empire bit is rather short considering the timespan (+- 500-1500!) and important developments, there is next to nothing on the Eighty Years' War (yes, I know there's an article but there should be something in the main article as well), nothing about cultural life in the Golden Age (science, arts), oh and that part should probably be sectioned (subdivided, but not divided!) in Eighty Years' War and Golden Age. There is very little contemporary history and most of it is about institutions and the like (where are 'depillarization', 60's-70's cultural changes, immigration?), the balance is odd at times (quite a lot about Indonesia compared to the rest), the language is rather poor sometimes and I agree with some comments that have been made about the images - there should probably be a different painting at the top (not sure what, though), and I feel there should be an image of William of Orange (Greatest Dutchman, after all ;) ). Don't worry, there's a lot that I like about the article (otherwise I wouldn't work on it), and hey, if we all work together we can give this article the smothering love that it needs :D. Junes 18:50, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Not completely living up to standards now

message: Although I very much like your additions, Thames, because they are well-written and important, a problem is becoming apparent. Some sections have grown so much that the balance is completely gone. Of course, the Golden Age is very important in the history of the Netherlands, and that should merit a longer section, but now it's about 6 times longer than the Holy Roman Empire section. The 20th century is also very long in comparison to the rest. Of course, we could just expand the other sections greatly, but that would mean the article could no longer serve as an introductory text. So it's probably best to make some new articles or merge the information into other existing articles. There a two useful articles here: Dutch Golden Age and Eighty Years' War. The first is a thorough article on the cultural and social history of the Golden Age, but doesn't concern politics. The second is not so thorough, and needs improvement. I think some of mine and your additions could perfectly amend that article. Also, a third article would be very useful, something like History of the Dutch Golden Age, which focuses mainly on political events. However, that would be a lot of work and I'm not ready to write it now. But I'd like to hear your views on it before I merge the History and the Eighty Years' War. What I still miss by the way, and for which there would be plenty of room to expand on in the war article, is some of the more selfish reasons for the revolt: privileges that were taken away, more bureaucratic governing instead of by nobility. As for the 20th century, there's probably enough now to merit a seperate article, and I will as soon as I get to it. Junes 18:27, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Partition

message: This is the first time I've posted a comment on Wikipedia, so forgive me if I'm doing it wrong in some way. 
I enjoyed this history (and others here on similar topics). It would be great if it could explore in more depth the early origins of the Dutch as a people. Who are the Dutch exactly? Not in terms of legend or national identity (e.g. Batavians) but in purely historical terms. The current article deals with this but only for a few lines.
I think English-speakers who are interested in the history of this nation would like to know more about its early relationship between Anglo-Saxon lands. Apparently there were strong ties between SE England and the Frisians. The Dutch were christianised by Anglo-Saxons whose language was apparently intelligible. (Is that correct?) Why does England have so much written in Old English, but in Old Dutch there is virtually nothing? 
The medieval Flemish and Dutch (many of them anyway) are presumably the inheritors of the Franks. Dutch essentially developed from Old Low Franconian. The Franks were centered in Flanders, but extended into the southern Netherlands. We read about the Frisians inhabiting the area north of the two rivers and having a large trading influence over the surrounding areas. In 900 most of the Netherlands is still Frisian, all the way down to the main rivers; by 1300 we're looking at a country that has become largely Frankish and is on the verge of world empire. By the time of the Golden Age we see a Holland that is made up of these magnificent prosperous cities - Amsterdam, Leiden, Rotterdam, Haarlem, etc. - but they obviously didn't just pop up out of nowhere.
So what happened between around 900 and 1300 to change the country from being primarily Frisian speaking to being primarily Frankish speaking? From terp-dwelling to Golden Age? From having no written records in Dutch to producing a Vermeer? Was it a slow migration north? Or did Franks create Frankish towns and cities that were surrounded by Frisians? Did the Frisians become culturally and linguistically "Frankicised" for social or economic reasons? Did Vikings or Charlemagne have anything to do with it? What was the dynamic here? Isn't this transition from Frisian to Frankish a really important part of Dutch history? If not, why not? I would love to read more about it. We read much about the Frankish conquest of France, but little about the expansion northwards.
I am also interested in other 5th to 13th century aspects. English sources have much to say about early medieval society in France, England and Germany, but so little about the Netherlands. 
- the transition from busy Roman outpost to sparsely populated Frisian empire
- the Christianisation of the Netherlands and the role of Irish and Anglo-Saxon missionaries
- the role played by the Dutch in the Crusades and the church
- the history of the language itself
If this leads anywhere thanks! (Alex)
* I have moved your comments here, at the bottom, as is the custom (don't worry about it). These are some interesting questions you raise here and you're right that they're not apropriately answered in the article. Certainly the medieval section is rather poor at the moment, it should be expanded. However I'm afraid I don't think it can be as in depth as you sketch it here, well not in the main article that is. If there's enough material about these topics eventually there could be other articles about them. Maybe I'll add some more text (I've worked on the text in a piecemeal manner, but have lost interest a bit). But of course you can add to it as well, if you'd like! Just a word of warning: it's not true that it was all Frisians north of the rivers. The inhabitants of the Netherlands in those days were of a lot of different tribes, as is mentioned in the article. There were Saxons in the east, for example. Junes 22:12, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Franks and Frisians

message: Thanks by the way Alex, for your copy-editing. There were quite a bit of errors in the article because it wasn't written by native speakers. I saw you changed some American spelling to British spelling. I think that's probably a good idea (the Wikipedia policy is to use consistent spelling, and to make the choice depending who is most likely to read it. Because of the proximity of the UK to the Netherlands, British spelling would be best.) Junes 22:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Copy-editing & type of spelling

message: It would be nice to have a detailed section on the colonial history of the netherlands, how it came about, which countries etc.
I agree, this would also make the mentioning of decolonisation of Indonesia in the post WWII section less awkward.--Arnoutf 23:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Colonial History

message: The following may seem like a trite remark, but this is about a deep-rooted misconception and even an insult. The article says "The Netherlands is now a modern, industrialised nation". Sounds fine, but it suggests there are non-modern countries. Can anyone think of a nation that is not now a modern nation? And would they then dare tell this to an inhabitant of that country in their face? If a nation exists now, it's by definition a modern nation, right? Or does it really mean western and are non-western countries, ehm ... backward or something? Sorry for being so dutch :) DirkvdM July 3, 2005 08:03 (UTC)
* I think the description "a modern, industrialized nation" is fine. Although the concept of "modern" is applied in many different areas and could be misinterpreted to some extent, I think most readers will appreciate the intended meaning, which IMO would include concepts as: a high standard of living, innovation and use of technology, participation in international organizations, good infrastructure, etc. "Modern" is something that described a state of affairs. I'd say there ARE countries that are not modern, or less modern; for example in Africa or central or Southeast Asia. Although in some of these countries there are relatively modern cities, a large proportion of the population would be living in conditions that may be more similar to how Western countries lived many decades or even centuries ago. I would not feel uncomfortable in telling someone that their country is not "modern"; it is not derogatory or a value judgment. Erik75 20:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern? Who isn't? 

message: I put this in here and corresponing material in the Armada article as it is very easy for nations to ignore other people's contribution to and experience of history (even to fall into the trap of believing their own nation's propaganda). My aim is to draw attention to the wider pattern which clearly exists, though my knowledge is too narrow, for the reason given, for me to be competent to achieve this fully. Maybe there is an article already covering the broader view at this period. If so, I have missed it. (RJP 13:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Armada link

message: During the period of rule of Spain in the Netherlands, was the Spanish language known by Dutch citizens? If no, why not? The Spanish could have exerted a much greater influence on the Netherlands if their subjects knew Spanish. Stallions2010 23:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know for sure, but I'd be very surprised if many people knew Spanish. The Habsburgs did not rule the Netherlands in the modern sense of the word. There was a feudal system, in which the local government was always lead by local nobility. In addition, several cities had acquired some self-rule. So the whole thing was rather decentralized. In fact, it was the attempt to centralize government that was one of the reasons for the revolt. By the way, the language around the courts in Brussels was French, rather than Spanish. William of Orange spoke French too. Junes 12:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spanish Rule 

message: Can anyone point me to John Lothrop Motley's source material regarding the death sentence for the whole of The Netherlands? 
The passage from his work 'The Rise of the Dutch Republic' regarding a decree by the Holy Office of the Inquisition is often quoted but I have also read that this document (if it existed) was a forgery. Reading Motley's history, one can clearly feel the admiration of the author for William of Orange as well as his loathing for the Duke of Alva ( both understandable ) but it has been suggested that Motley ( 1814-1877 ) may have painted a more extreme picture of Spanish infamy at this time than was in fact the case.
--User:Tamurello 10:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  All citizens of The Netherlands condemned to death?  

message: Shouldnt there be a navigational template? most other history pages have a template listing all the different history period article. – Tutmøsis (Talk) 20:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template 

message: So there's not a single mention of floods in the history of the Netherlands? --euyyn 00:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree with the implication of your remark: there should be a paragraph on floods in the Netherlands, because these are an important part of Dutch history - and, for that matter, Dutch identity and collective memory. I started by writing one on the major disaster of 1953 (known in Dutch as "De Watersnoodramp"). (R3NL 19:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  And floods? 

message: I’ve added a few lines on how Dutch wealth during the so called “golden period” came partly from their extensive slaving. For references and for those interested in the appalling human cost of the Dutch wealth, se the following links:
* The forgotten history of the slave trade
*  Slave Routes Netherlands
* "The World's Oldest Trade": Dutch Slavery and Slave Trade in the Indian Ocean in the Seventeenth Century*
--Stor stark7 Talk 15:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Should the Italians give reparations to people in the regions where the Romans were slaving? Should the governments of scandinavia give reparations to all the cities the Vikings pillaged and raped? (Stor stark7)? Reparations have been forced anyway by Mugabe Anoderate1 (talk) 09:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Dutch Slave trade

message: I do not think the line about the relations with Canada is entirely accurate any more. Only the elderly in the Netherlands associate Canada with the liberation after the second world war. For younger generations, other images are more important. Canada's reputation has suffered badly in the Netherlands as a result of regularly recurring negative publicity in the Dutch press about the clubbing of baby seals in the Arctic. I amended the line about Canada accordingly, but it might be considered to take out the line about Dutch-Canadian relations completely, as it does not seem very relevant in this section on Dutch history (why is there no reference to relations with the U.S., arguably a country that has influenced the Netherlands more than Canada, or with post-war Germany?) (R3NL 20:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. But I don't think the general opinion on the hunt of baby seals deserves a place in a general article on the history of the netherlands. I propose we strike the entire line about the relations with Canada being "honoured".--Dengo 08:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relations with Canada 

message: I detect some mistakes in references in the paragraphs on Dutch plans to deport Germans from Dutch territory and annex swathes of German territory after WW2. One of the footnotes should refer to article 4, not to article 5. Careful reading of that article demonstrates, moreover, that the British authorities in northern Germany did not expel 100.000 Dutch from the British occupation zone, but only threatened to do so in reaction to the expulsion of Germans from Dutch territory. 
In a more geneneral sense, I do not think it is proportionate to devote four or five paragraphs to Dutch-German relations in the aftermath of WW2. This Wikipedia article contains only one paragraph on the mass murder of more than 100.000 Jewish citizens of the Netherlands in German concntration camps. Devoting another three or four paragraphs to (only very partially implemented) plans for expulsion of Germans and annexation of German territory seems entirely out of proportion. I would be in favour of deleting these paragraphs. (87.80.96.66 17:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deportation of Germans after WW2 

message: I'm reviewing articles from Version 0.5 that have been "downgraded" during our work period, and noticed that a large chunk of material about the "golden age" had been removed.  I find it hard to believe that was not caused by a vandal, but could someone who maintains/watches this page please review my edit.  If I've made some mistake, please revert, but I would have thought this was one of the most important periods in Dutch history! Walkerma 05:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restoration of some earlier material 

message: I recently fell in love with the History of Poland is dealt with, which is with dates. Currently this is eccentially a huge pile of information, in my vision this will be a starting point to a wide array of sub articles dealing with specific articles.Rex 19:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete rewrite of the History of the Netherlands. 

message: Some text about prehistoric and Roman times has been deleted long ago. I readded it with minor modifications. Icek 02:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text deleted in April 2006 

message: Since adding the tag seems to be a one man's action that has never been clarified by the editor that submitted this tag, Daniel Case (never contributing to Talk nor contributing in any other way to the article) I think is appropiate to remove this weird comment. Thanks. Rokus01 08:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tone tag removed

message: ..The Dutch didn't regard themselves as Germans any more since the 15th century, but they officially remained a part of Germany until 1648..
:According to whom? The then German emperor perhaps and later German historians and most Germans who still read 'history books' tainted by Bismarckian (and later) influences, but surely not the Dutch themselves. What is always left out is the Pragmatic Sanction of 1548 in which Charles V, both Emperor and Lord of the 17 provinces created them to be new and largely unified unity with its own 'federal' parliament that no longer owed anything to the German Diet. The only link was a personal one: the Netherlands payed the person of the emperor a yearly sum of money in return for which the emperor promissed to 'protect' the Netherlands (i.e. his own provinces..) It was the parliament that decided to pay off his son Phillip's mercenaries-in-mutiny, surreptitously taking control of a rather messy situation and provoking an invasion from the king and the subsequent declaration of independence of the North.
How would Americans feel if their history page said that they remained officially an English colony till 1812 just because the Brits wrote the history books?
America's independence is 1776, ours 1581. At the latest.
Jcwf 04:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this like the Dutch history books stating Indonesian independence as 1949, not 1945. ;-)  --Merbabu 04:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed the text a litlle bit to better reflect the situation. It was officially part of the Holy Roman Empire until 1648. Stating that it was part of Germany presumes that Germany was a unified country, which it was not at that time. Ofcourse there is a difference between the official date and what was the actual situation, in that sense indeed comparable with the situation in Indonesia. Compare the Indonesian Declaration of Independence with the Oath of Abjuration. Difference is that it took the Netherlands 67 years to get the official recognition and Indonesia four. BoH 09:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''independence'' from Germany

message: I was a bit quick in editing the introduction. In my history comment I noted that there was no reference to the Swifterbant culture independently re-establishing agriculture, but I since found I missed a citation in the Swifterbant culture article. My suggestion is to move some of this discussion out of this article into the Swifterbant culture article. 
I also still stand by my edit of the introduction - to state the Netherlands is an (underestimated) cradle of civilization is very strong and in my opinion unwarranted, and many countries can make claims like this. Reinventing agriculture just seems plain wrong - it's stated that they were influenced by other agriculturalists and adopted it, not reinvented it from scratch or something. Martijn Faassen 02:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The introduction is still making the claim that the area is underestimated. I don't know whether it should, as it's still an opinion, but it was much stronger before. "cradle of civilizations", "reinventing agriculture". Wikipedia runs a danger of having every country's history seem more prestigious, causing inflation of historical  importance. I'd like to guard against this. Martijn Faassen 00:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm fine to have something like this in, if we cite sources. We should do this in Swifterbant_culture first. Can you find sources for it? So far the Swifterband culture article lacks sources describing this transition, even though the article asserts it. The one source listed as supporting the theory is just describing a field being discovered, nothing else. It doesn't back up the assertion of an independent transition. Martijn Faassen 00:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: The German tribes wandered all over the map, so indeed too much emphasis on their presence in the Netherlands would be wrong. Martijn Faassen 00:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Are you suggesting we modify the current introduction? I think these points still stand in the adjusted introduction. I'd still be more comfortable if we could find an external source that makes the same point: "the territory of the present-day Netherlands is an underestimated cradle of peoples". I guess it's a problem with being underestimated; it means that there are less likely to be sources to back this up. But is Wikipedia really the place to start saying this, then? Martijn Faassen 00:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Cradle of nations" was never there. It should be clear to everyone that the Swifterbant culture was not a "nation". I also think it's hard to maintain it was a "civilization", which is why I modified "underestimated cradle of civilizations" to "underestimated cradle of peoples". That said, let's remove it and let people draw any conclusion they like themselves (unless Rokus01 can find an external reference characterizing the area as such). I've edited the introduction a bit after your edits. The region is known as possible origin of the Bellbeaker culture, which is mentioned in that article, so I put that back in. Martijn Faassen 10:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, it does appear to his edit. It's not there anymore. You're using a lot of negative words about Rokus01 and this risks getting tempers frayed. Can't we talk about the topic matter instead of taking a confrontational tone? Please see Wikipedia:Civility Martijn Faassen 16:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

text: What is wrong is that wikipedia is not supposed to engage in original conclusions. And this is a conclusion that is contestable, as this discussion shows. Contestable conclusions should be sourced. If you know of an independent outside source that characterizes the territory of the Netherlands as a "cradle of civilizations", let's put it in there. Otherwise, I don't think it's good idea. I also think that Schonken's tone was entirely inappropriate. I'm not sure what unsourced bias of other nations you are referring to, by the way. Martijn Faassen 22:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Rokus, we can debate the content without removing this entire discussion from the page, can we? I don't understand why this discussion, which I was involved in, is repeatedly removed from the talk page. Was it some kind of editing mistake? Martijn Faassen (talk) 11:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swifterbant culture and agriculture 

message: can somebody fix the intro please? "The history of the Netherlands technically began more than 152,000 years ago" is extremely unprofessional. Just state that the area was inhabited since the paleolithic. The lead should also be shorter. dab (𒁳) 17:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a few more edits as per your suggestion. Shortening the lead will be more lead and contributions are welcome. Martijn Faassen 17:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: any claim of "indigenous development of agriculture before 4100 BC" would need extremely reliable references, and belongs in the "prehistory" section, not the lead. dab (𒁳) 09:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, here you are. I restored the claims of an indigenous development of agriculture. It was sourced before with two notable references, however, since this view was contested by a sock and by you I also added a pagenumber and a quote. Anyone familiar to the Dutch faculty of archeology will know Raemakers and L. P. Louwe Kooijmans are among the best of our archeologists, i.e. extremely reliable references. Rokus01 (talk) 22:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: intro

message: I am fascinated by how many Dutch people I meet with Roman names like Lucius Vilnius, for example. Is there more to this than the Wiki explains? Is there a Roman sub-culture still existing in the Netherlands? Are Dutch people of Roman ancestry a kind of elite? It would be good to have a section in the Wiki page about this. TonyG (Australia) - 07 Dec 2007.
Some dutch people have latin names because latin was a language that some scholars and clergy had learned to speak and read since it was a part of their occupations. All dutch people have germanic ancestry and some may have some celtic ancestry.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.177.17 (talk) 04:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch people with Roman names? 

message: I would like to know what people think about the anachronistic references to "Netherlands" and "Dutch" in this article. Take these sentences for example:
* "The wealth of the Netherlands in the Iron Age is seen at the "King's grave in Oss"...
* "Much of the western Netherlands was barely inhabited between the end of the Roman period and around 1100."
* "As settlement progressed, the area quickly became Dutch."
Considering there was no "Netherlands" and no "Dutch" at this time, aren't sentences like this completely misleading? They ruin the article for me. 
Even if this is repaired, what term should be used? A phrase like "the provinces that are now called the Netherlands" seems too much of a mouthful. The Dutch version of this article addresses this problem expressly at the start:
: Het Nederland in de huidige betekenis bestond niet voor de late middeleeuwen. Voor die tijd is het beter te spreken van 'het gebied van het huidige Nederland'.
I suppose the problem is artificially trying to construct a history for a political unit that did not exist until the 17th centry. The answer is probably not to keep making references to it. It's poor style in any case. Schildewaert (talk) 23:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not the right person to comment on the usage of "Netherlands" and "Dutch", but to address your last point, I can say that there is nothing wrong with writing history going back 1000's of years on a relatively recent political construct. The point is, we are covering the history of an area that is *now* the modern state. --Merbabu (talk) 01:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anachronistic references 

message: I expanded the section on the Burgundian period. I added a small section on the Frisian peasants rebellion from 1515 until 1523 lead by Pier Gerlofs Donia. Was signed,
Jouke Bersma  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.170.26 (talk) 10:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burgundian period 

message: Under a proposal made by me, the pages Patrician and Patricianship -- whose names presently are not specific enough -- will be renamed as follows:
* Patrician → Patricians (Ancient Rome)
* Patricianship → Patricians (Middle Ages)
(I dropped an earlier proposal for merging the two pages.)
For the rationale for renaming the pages and a couple of associated other changes, as well as the opinions of user:Johnbod, please see the discussion page at Talk:Patricianship.
My question is, do people here support my renaming proposal, or if not support it, at least would not oppose it.
Thanks in advance for all replies--Goodmorningworld (talk) 14:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Your input requested: Patrician/Patricianship 

message: I agree that removing the template may not be according to the procedure, but the procedure also requires discussion on the talk page, which is missing.
There's really nothing to merge in the Dutch miracle article. Besides, that article has already given three different definitions of what the Dutch miracle might be. Mvdleeuw (talk) 06:12, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging [[Dutch miracle]] 

message: I removed the slave trade reference since it is not specific about who owned and operated in the african slave trade. The "Dutch" colonies had many people who were not ethnically germanic living in them and therefore are not dutch. Most all of the black african slave owners and traders who historians call dutch were actually jewish people who had moved from spain to the netherlands.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.132.30 (talk) 17:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: better read the Postma book which has the detailed evidence. Rjensen (talk) 17:14, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  I removed slave trade reference 

message: I propose to move this part of the article to a separate page and then just leave a brief one paragraph overview here. I'll wait a few days for objections to be raised.  Schildewaert (talk) 07:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Hiving off "Prehistory"

message: http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/1730news.htm - Some 250+ men executed. Notable? Pär Larsson (talk) 20:16, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  1730 Purge of Homosexuals.  

message: With respect to the original author(s), the text relating to the 19th century is particularly problematic from both a language and content perspective. I started to edit it myself, but I've stopped for now. This whole section needs to be properly rewritten by someone with expertise and access to secondary sources. I thought the improvements could come from the article on "William I" or the article on "United Kingdom of the Netherlands", but those two articles are also unfootnoted and not that well written.
*The headings seem inappropriate. (easy to fix)
*This part of the article is mostly unfootnoted. What footnotes there are seem to be unreliable (eg a 1907 Catholic encyclopedia). A quick check of the equivalent articles on the Dutch Wikipedia shows that footnoting is not an important aspect of the Dutch Wikipedia. It's strange that the two Wikipedias have such different approaches. 
*Some of it is insulting to the intelligence of the reader (eg "Flemings in the south spoke a Dutch dialect ("Flemish")") and includes sweeping statements that seem unlikely ("Poverty...also largely disappeared...").
*Was the "Fundamental Law of Holland" really the name of the law introduced in the UK of the NL?? 
*Another example: it says the "estates were resurrected", but when I click through to the links to try to understand this, the material does not support this statement at all. I think what was meant was that the "States General were restored". 
I would like to invite the original author(s), or someone else who understands 19th century Dutch history, to amend this text (with proper footnotes of course). It's a shame the Dutch articles are unfootnoted because the easiest approach would have been to translate them.
If no one takes up the challenge, I'll do it myself, but the result will be the amendment of most of the current text. Schildewaert (talk) 20:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing "19th Century" 

message: This part was recently added:
:Adolphe Quetelet (1796-1874), the great Belgian statistician, calculated that the new nation was significantly better off than other states. Mortality was low, the food supply was good, education was good, public awareness was high and the charity rate was the highest in the world. The best years were in the mid 1820s.
:The quality of schooling was dismal, however. According to Schama, about 1800 the local school teacher was the "humble auxiliary of the local priest. Despised by his co-villagers and forced to subsist on the gleanings of the peasants, he combined drumming the catechism into the heads of his unruly charges with the duties of winding the town clock, ringing the church bells or digging its graves. His principal use to the community was to keep its boys out of mischief when there was no labour for them in the fields, or setting the destitute orphans of the town to the 'useful arts' of picking tow or spinning crude flax. As one would expect, standards in such an occupation were dismal."[121] But in 1806 the Dutch, led by Adriaan van den Ende, energetically set out to modernise education, focusing on a new system for advanced training of teachers with an elaborate system of inspectors, training courses, teacher examinations and teaching societies. By 1826, although much smaller than France, the Dutch national government was spending 12 times more than Paris on education.
However, it is not clear whether this applies to Belgium or the southern part of the Netherlands. The reference to "priest" seems to exclude most of the modern Netherlands. If it pertains to the situation in Belgium, how relevant is it to this article? Schildewaert (talk) 07:54, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: NL or B?

message: Who exactly surrendered? The Fortress Holland? The forces in the mainland? All forces? The Netherlands as a nation? Due to an exile government the last scenario is unlikely.
Another question is, if parts of the forces (especially Air Force and Navy units) could escape and fought comparable to the Polish Armed Forces in the West together with the allies.
Another question is, if the Netherlands were at war with Italy as well.--Stubenviech (talk) 08:14, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surrender in 1940 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:15, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: Since a long time, I have been planning to improve the prehistory section. I will start soon, and welcome all collaboration. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:23, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prehistory