Talk:Scotland/Archive 4

message: I have initiated a section on the UK wikipedian's page for this issue, as its outcome affects the England page and the Wales page too:
Wikipedia_talk:UK_Wikipedians%27_notice_board#England_page.2C_Scotland_page.2C_Wales_page:_National_Arms_or_UK_Arms
:Picking up the discussion on this talk page (its natural home) — of course Mais oui! is right; the arms should be the lion rampant in the tressure flory-counterflory; and the caption below should read "royal arms" or "arms of Scotland." And as he/she suggested, it would be simpler and more appropriate if somebody found a better image focused on the arms alone (without all the apparatus of a full achievement). Astrotrain's proposed arms aren't the royal arms of Scotland; they're the royal arms of the UK for use in Scotland and they could certainly appear further down the page somewhere, if properly captioned. But it's just sensible that the infobox for x contain symbols of x, not of X. Doops |  talk 07:50, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at , a copy of the Breastfeeding etc. (Scotland) Act 2005. It uses the Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland. Look at this document for the High Court , clearly showing the Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland. Variants of the Lion Rampant are used by some Scottish institutions such as the SFA or the Scottish Rugby Association, as a recognisable symbol of Scotland. The Royal Coat of Arms are the only offical arms. England does not have its own offical arms, that is why the 3 lions symbol has been used. Astrotrain 22:04, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Au contraire. Please have a wee keek at the Mental Capacity Act 2005. Oooooo... what is that nice symbol at the top of the document? Wow! It is the Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom, on an English act of parliament! Shock, horror. You had better skip off straight away and remove those naughty little "unofficial" (sic) three lions from the England page. I am sure that your intervention on that page, removing the national symbols of England, will be very warmly welcomed. Once you have successfully installed the UK Coat of Arms on the England page, please come back and tell us how you got on. If you suceed in applying the UK Arms to the England page then I will be the first to support your attempt to apply the UK Arms to the Scotland page. I await with bated breath. PS. If you were wondering: no, my choice of Act to cite was not purely coincidental. I did like your choice of the Breastfeeding etc. (Scotland) Act 2005. What does etc involve?--Mais oui! 22:23, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And compare and contrast the Arms on the Breastfeeding Act and the Incapacity Act - they're different. - SoM 22:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Mais Oui, there is no legislation for England, as England has no parliament. The legislation is actually for the United Kingdom, even though Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland may not be affected by the legislation taking place in Westminster. The legislation is NOT carried out by an English parliament, but a Scottish one. The official coat of arms for Scotland is that posted by Astrotrain. --Grcampbell 22:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is the official coat of arms FOR Scotland. Not of. For. Doops |  talk 23:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Use of the lion rampant by the Scottish Rugby Association & of the three lions passant by the English Cricket Board are exactly analogous — a technically illegal usurpation of the respective kingdoms' ancient royal arms (no longer used alone) which is tolerated partly through indifference and partly through pragmatism: they are national teams and those symbols, although technically "royal", are useful substitutes for the "national" coats of arms of more modern countries. (As is technically also the Union Flag, although of course nobody bothers about that either.) Doops |  talk 23:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Scottish Rugby Union don't use the Lion Rampant, the football side does though... --Grcampbell 23:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: (Sorry. I was going by what Astrotrain said above. Doops |  talk 04:01, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scottish Arms or UK Arms - discussion at UK wikipedians' 

message: To quote myself: it's just sensible that the infobox for x contain symbols of x, not of X. Doops |  talk 21:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  once and for all: 

message: I have created Kingdom of Scotland as a separate article (currently, just a stub).  I think some of the information in the Scotland article would be better located there.  --JW1805 18:59, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kingdom of Scotland 

message: I would like to request that the parties involved refrain from their revert war on the Arms of Scotland issue until they reach a decision here. One of you has already violated the 3RR (by a few minutes) and the other has come within a few minutes of doing the same. The revert war makes you both look childish, even though the passionate discussions here seems to indicate that you are both mature and eloquent. Please focus on resolving the issue here (or through mediation) rather than fighting it out with reverts. Thanks in advance for your cooperation. --GraemeL (talk) 11:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A plea to stop the revert war