Talk:Tibet/Archive 5

message: The former talk page was getting too long, so I moved it.--Niohe 12:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk page archived

message: Quote from the page: "Source: Department of Population, Social, Science and Technology Statistics of the National Bureau of Statistics of China (国家统计局人口和社会科技统计司)". Isn't this a mistranslation? I think it should be something in the likings of "Department of Population and Society Scientifical Statistics of the National...". No? UncleMatt 20:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think 科技 is a noun here, not an adjective... it's a bit weird to say 科技统计司 for "Scientific Statistics Bureau". Third opinions? -- ran (talk) 06:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  translation issue 

message: I have removed the following recent addition to the article:
This is basically redundant with the following sentence: "Neither the Republic of China nor the People's Republic of China has ever renounced China's claim to sovereignty over Tibet".—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 18:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed sentence, re: ROC 

message: With the proliferation of national WikiProjects, even one for Austria-Hungary, 90 years gone, would there be enough interest to justify such a project as this? Happy New Year! Chris 04:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not against the idea, and if such a WikiProject is started, I'll sign up as a participant and put the project page on my watchlist, etc. However, I don't see any particular need for it, or enthusiasm, so I don't think it's really necessary at this time. Some WikiProjects seem to get started needlessly. There is, by the way, already a WikiProject Tibetan Buddhism, but it is mostly inactive. Even WikiProject Buddhism is awful quiet most of the time.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 00:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have created a discussion at , thanks! Chris 07:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Tibet]]

message: "The beauty contest is condemned by the Tibetan government in exile."
What is the source of this statement? From the link prior, it seems the Dalai Lama himself has no opinion one way or another, so who in particular condemns the function? -- Hidoshi 07:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beauty Contest Condemned? 

message: I'm running Firefox 2.0.0.1 and on this Tibet page the warning about spam links and the message about the page containing chinese characters overlap making both somewhat unreadable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.84.208.151 (talk) 06:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The spam warning and chinese text message overlap 

message: No, Tibetan is closer to Indian languages and other South Asian languages than it is to Chinese
:::: Wrong!!!! Indian languages consist broadly of 2 groups, Indo-European and Dravidian, neither of which are related to Tibetan.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.157.96.109 (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  One linguist's maverick opinion does not count very much in the subject.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.157.96.109 (talk) 20:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Thegreyanomaly, I'm honestly not entirely hostile to your position. I just don't completely understand it. What does "culturally South Asian" mean? I thought "South Asia" was basically a geographical concept. Clearly, Tibetan's closest relatives are language spoken at various points in the Himalayas, and, after that, Burmese and some of its cousins. I tend to think Ladakhi, Sikkimese, and Dzongkha should be discounted, as they result from population movements within the last 1000 years or so. Anyway, some languages related to Tibet are spoken at and around the edges of the Indian subcontinent. What does this tell us?—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 05:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I've taken so long to respond. What I am trying to say is that Tibetans are closer to South Asians culturally that they are to East Asians, Central Asians, or Southeast Asians. They are Central Asian in terms of their geography but in a cultural sense Tibet isn't so close to Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, or Tajikistan or any other Central Asian nation. Thegreyanomaly 23:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just because at some point in the past the Tibetan scribes borrowed ideas from the Indians on how to record their language in written form does not mean the Tibetan language is linguistically related to Indic languages. The Navajos now write their language with the Latin alphabet,this does not show that the Navajo language is linguistically a European language. All it shows is that some peoples (Tibetans included) never spontaneously developed a method for writing down their spoken language, but rather borrowed and adopted methods developed by other peoples. Nowadays this would be called plagiarism or piracy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.157.96.109 (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Do ethnic Tibetans look like Indians, or can you tell them apart from other Chinese peoples, because they don't look like Indians to me, and I can't tell them apart from other Chinese?
If there is still no consensus in the near future, I will formally remove the Tibet entry from South Asia, where the four citations provided by User:Thegreyanomaly factually, as mentioned above, prove nothing. - 219.73.86.204 12:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Hahaha. Okay, I'm young, but I'm a Tibetan who studied both Tibetan and Nepali. I can also read, write and speak Hindi since it is virtually identical to Nepali. It is in the basics really. Nepali "alphabets" sound very very similar to Tibetan. Ka, Kha, Ga, Nga, are the first four Tibetan alphabets. Ka, Kha, Ga, Gha, Nga are the first five Nepalese alphabets. You sirs, especially that "Tibetologist" (har har), have been "pwnt".
Now let me explain further. The Tibetan script has its roots with Sanskrit. Why? Well, our kings were obsessed with Buddhism, and brought over monks from India. And they also gave us a written script as a bonus. What a deal! But in terms of how we "speak", it's nothing like Hindi or Nepali. It would be closer to Mongol and Chinese.
If it's a matter of looks. Well, I think most Tibetans look like Inuits to me. Some look very Chinese or Japanese. Few actually look very Indian, all that sun burns a dark tan on us. Haha.74.100.236.8 07:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: response

message: I am in mainland China behind the Great Firewall, so I cannot access the article directly. My proxy for accessing the page has been blocked from editing by Wikipedia.
In the third paragraph of section "Name" / "In Chinese", there might be a typo. "土番 (Tufan)" should be "土蕃 (Tubo)".
Thank you.HELLO, WORLD! 08:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have corrected it. The correct Hanyu Pinyin is "Tǔbō" not "Tǔfān". The correct characters are 吐蕃, while 土番 is a variant also pronounced "Tǔbō". Although both 蕃 and 番 can be pronounced as "fān" in some other words. --72.75.55.194 06:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone please help me make some edit to the article 

message: The 藏 character is pronounced "cáng" when used to mean storage (e.g. 儲藏 chǔcáng "to store"), and the "zàng" pronunciation is usually to describing Tibet or Tibetans, or in words like 寶藏 (bǎozàng) "treasure".  So while the character is the one and the same, a meaning of "Western storage" for the term 西藏 would require a deliberate mispronunciation, so I added the blurb about the different pronunciations on the article.  Thought I'd give a heads-up as I wade into the minefield.  Kelvinc 10:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  藏 

message: Shouldn't Tibet have an infobox like all other disputed territories and occupied countries? I checked around other such territories and countries and they all seem to have infoboxes expect for Tibet. Is this the work of editors who favour the communist government in China and wish to suppress all things to do with Tibet? If so Wikipedia isn't very NPOV these days. Usergreatpower 17:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm all for an infobox, but the infobox must itself be NPOV.  The one that had been repeatedly inserted wasn't.  Again, I'd be all for an infobox on the model of the one in Western Sahara.  --Nlu (talk) 18:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There seems to be a general consensus that there should be an infobox on this article similar to that of Western Sahara so the next step is what should be included in the new infobox and what shouldn't to make it NPOV? A sample infobox would be good. 88.110.139.15 19:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am very bad at designing boxes, but I'd suggest that there should not be a flag or an anthem, nor any assertion that either the PRC or the CTA is the legitimate government for Tibet.  Stay with geographical and population facts.  --Nlu (talk) 08:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: known as the Dalai Lamas have existed in Tibet, and the fourteen --->>> Here  Dali<<-- Lama's are beleived to be the incarnations of Avalokiteśvara ("Chenrezig" [spyan ras gzigs] in Tibetan), the bodhisattva of compassion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dharmendarm (talk • contribs) 10:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just change the spelling mistake 

message: After reading and re-reading this article I was discraced to find no relevance to the "Tibetan Monk Chant" I feel that this is a major factor in Tibet's culture, most young people in Tibet listen to the chant when they are young and I believe that it is this that causes them to lead such a life in exile (no source)I would greatly appreciate some mention in the article or even better an article to itself, I would volunteer to make this article being interested, since an early age, in Tibetan Monks D. BULL 11:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tibetan Monk Chant 

message: By the way, is the caption of :Image:TAR-TAP-TAC.png entirely accurate? "Ethnic Tibetan autonomous entities set up by the People's Republic of China. Opponents to the PRC dispute the actual level of autonomy." Is it only opponents to the PRC who dispute this? I would have thought that almost any neutral observer would agree to this point, if nothing else.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 14:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autonomous region map caption 

message: The article has too many pictures. Images should be under the appropriate related sections. Reorganization is needed. ian-Kiu 06:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. Some Wikipedia articles do tend to collect bric-a-brac of unnecessary images. I fully endorse reorganization.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 01:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: What kind of stupid would mysteriously remove his political totem? The 10th Panchen criticized CPC's rule many times before already. There was no evidence of such accuse. Further more, Panchen lived in Beijing too long, he died because of high attitude, which was pretty strait forward. The best interest for Beijing was to make the 10th Panchen live longer than the 14th Dalai, so the 10th Panchen would bear the responsibility of reincarnation of 15th Dalai; also, the 10th Panchen had more authority than the current disputed 11th Panchen. By this strategy would also void the 11th Panchen dispute as well.--61.30.72.148 05:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death of the 10th Panchen did not meet the interest of CPC 

message: Further to the six edits by the anonymous User:128.91.41.29 which were reverted by User:CredoFromStart, I have reverted a further three edits by the same anonymous user, 128.91.41.29, as even though it is clear that they were at least in part trying to perhaps replace some words that might appear to be POV from a Tibetan POV, they only replaced those words with similar POV words just from a different POV. In addition, changing the name Francis Younghusband to Francis Youngwife was clearly vandalism. Unfortunately I have reverted three times as I forgot to do it in one go, but this was to revert clear POV and vandalism edits. For the user who did these edits though, there is no point, in editing the article and replacing what you believe to be POV by simply replacing those words with others that are just as much, if not more so, a POV.♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 20:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanation of reverts

message: Tibetan Government in-exile claims that Tibet was an independent states because it was autonomous in 1912-1951.
But ridiculous that Dala Lama claims Greater Tibet, it includes Qinghai (you call Amdo). Don't forget Qinghai was under control of Nationalist China in 1911-1949. (see Ma Bufang) 198.155.145.88 09:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Free Tibet Group Member Please Answer Me!

message: Hi! I don't think the infobox is particularly suited for this type of article. At the top it is stated that this article is concerned with the historical and cultural region of Tibet, and that there is a separate article on the Tibet Autonomous Region for the political entity. I personally removed the flag and seal because that was blatantly POV to be included in the infobox of such an article about the historical and cultural region of Tibet. Though it was a historical political symbol, it shouldn't be included in the infobox since those political symbols no longer apply to Tibet of 2007, and of course they were (and still are for the government-in-exile) merely political symbols, not cultural. I have yet to see a flag and seal for other articles such as Palestine, Korea or China. Not to mention, if we were to include flags and seals, do we include all flags and seals used throughout history and in all regions (afterall there are Tibetan political entities in Qinghai, and India)? Now the same problem concerns the infobox, I don't know where the information were collected from, perhaps from the data gathered from the Tibetan Autonomous Region, this does not apply here, since Tibet historically and culturally is much larger than the Autonomous Region, it also includes parts of India and Qinghai, etc. I have no idea how one can calculate the HDI/GDP of the cultural Tibet, as for the historical Tibet, I don't think it's even possible. For a historical political entity such as the Soviet Union, you can use an infobox, with perhaps the ultimate statistics and flags/seals used, or perhaps at the greatest extent such as that of the Ottoman Empire or the Roman Empire, but for historical and cultural entities such as this article and Palestine, Korea and China, I don't think an infobox would be particularly well suited. I recommend taking it off. --72.75.55.194 06:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I have reverted your removal of the flag and seal as your removal of them is, in your words, blatantly POV. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 13:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You misunderstand the coverage of this article. It is about cultural and historical Tibet, and includes those areas which were not under the authority of Lhasa. The flag and seal posted here do not apply to those areas. Nor are they used today in the rest of Tibet (i.e. Tibet Autonomous Region). We don't display defunct symbols as if they were current on Wikipedia. --PalaceGuard008 05:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag/Seal and Infobox not suited for this type of article 

message: An infobox is a useful way of summarising information, but the infobox that keeps on being inserted  is unsatisfactory in many (if not most) respects:   Here are some key problems:
* Map: the map is POV in several ways. It presents Tibet, China, India, Sikkim, Nepal, and Bhutan with the same font (capitalised), implying that they are all of equal status.
** Sikkim is almost invariably recognised as a part of India today.
** There is a significant view that Tibet is part of China -- this view is recognised by almost all governments.
** The borders of Tibet reflect one of several competing views, with no acknowledgement of those other views: for example it omits Arunachal Pradesh but includes Amdo and Kham.
* Flag, seal: these relate only to the former administration in Lhasa. As this administration did not have direct control over several areas usually regarded as Tibetan and included in the (POV) map as such, the flag and seal are inconsistent with the map and the article. Furthermore, the flag and seal are not used today in the Tibet Autonomous Region, the major part of Tibet.
* Official language and other "official" things: in the same regard, cultural and historical Tibet as dealt with in this article have no official language.
I would suggest a refactoring of the infobox, perhaps with reference to the box at Western Sahara. --PalaceGuard008 05:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, because as I've stated above, some of the statistics for the infobox were copied directly from that of the tibet Autonomous Region article. The HDI of the United Nations Organisation for example, uses that of Tibet Autonomous Region's statistics, yet the ranking have been changed to 129th, as if it was a country/territory which had its HD index calculated by the UNO, when in fact there wasn't a mention of Tibet when I clicked on the link to the HDI rankings. I don't think an infobox is suited for this article of which even the geographical boundaries have several definitions that is explained in the article itself. But if someone feels that an infobox is necessary, I would think that the only information that can be gathered here would be "Largest City - Lhasa"; There could also be some other information given in parenthesis with notes, for example:, the time zone would have to cover both Indian time and Chinese time, the currencies used, Indian rupee, Chinese yuan, and Bhutan's currency. Population would be more difficult to calculate, if simply calculating by geographical area, perhaps the sum of the several geographical regions of Tibet at its maximum geographical extent can be used, if ethnicially, one would have to take the sum of only the ethnic Tibetans in the said geographical area. Also when this is done, it would be quite POV because we would be taking a specific definition of Tibet and using that to calculate its statistics for the infobox(that is, we as Wikipedia editors chose the geographical boundaries of Tibet, whether by maximum extent, the boundaries of the Tibet Autonomous Region, its de facto boundaries, the boundaries claimed by the exile government, or some other definition; and that we used this definition to define all of Tibet in all its definition in the infobox). Unless one wants the infobox to be heavily annotated, I find it difficult to create an NPOV infobox. Well, this is only my opinion, and thanks for taking it into consideration! --72.75.55.194 18:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inforbox discussion 

message: Xizang redirects to Tibet Autonomous Region.  Shouldn't the redirect go here instead? (Stefan2 14:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so, because "Xīzàng" is the short name for the transliteration of the Chinese name for the political body of the "Tibet Autonomous Region", it isn't used to refer to the other areas described in this article such as Qinghai and parts of Gansu, Sichuan, Yunnan or Sikkim. --72.75.55.194 18:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Xizang 

message: Shouldn't there be an individual section within the article on the 1950 military invasion by China? Seems like perhaps the most significant recent incident in the country's... sorry, region's... recent history. At present the article provides little information about it. Garth M 22:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article currently says: "In 1950, the People's Liberation Army invaded the Tibetan area of Chamdo, crushing minimal resistance from the ill-equipped Tibetan army. In 1951, the Tibetan representatives, under PLA military pressure, signed a seventeen-point agreement with the PRC's Central People's Government affirming China's sovereignty over Tibet. The agreement was ratified in Lhasa a few months later". The Tibetan army pretty much gave up. The commander of Tibetan forces is still a vice president of the National Political Consultative Assembly: . --PalaceGuard008 01:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The PLA crushed the Tibetan army and then initiated a genocide which killed 1.2 million people, according to a report done by the International Commission of Jurists and as reported by The Washington Post. That invasion was a prologue to the genocide that would follow after. The Tibetan army certainly didn't just "give up" and the Chinese were ruthless in their assassination of Tibetan culture and society. I think this section needs to be expanded, giving more detail to the brutality that was seen in that area and the reasons for the animosity felt by many Tibetans towards China today. Moreover, this demonstration of military force and presence within Tibet is why the article should reflect the country as an occupied, rather than administered state. Cumulus Clouds 07:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 1950 invasion

message: Come on this is like stealing something and saying disputed ownership! This is not PRCpedia the encyclopedia should be right before NPOV. I think to often we say oh but the Cigarette company says it's not addictive it is just a plain lie but they are powerful so we go along with it as if  it had not in reality killed millions of people and if anything their opinion/Science without the scientific method should be in an article about lies .We know chinese killed Tibetans in large numbers and to bow to a country who kills steals and censors this very site is wrong. Anyone more knowledgeable about changing this tag at the bottom want to help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.189.180 (talk • contribs) 20:52, 18 June 2007
:Well look at it this way: if somebody, hypothetically stole something from you and refused to give it back, it would be a disputed item. That doesn't mean that it's not yours and you shouldn't get it back ... but obviously there's a debate over that fact.&mash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 04:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However unreasonable the claims of one side of the dispute seem to the other side, there is no doubt that it is disputed!Billlion 06:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed territories in Asia ?

message: As there appears to be the start of an edit war over this I am hoping that those involved will discuss it in here rather than edit warring.
With regard to some of the comments in edit summaries - "For and against is the most neutral way of putting it, to do otherwise imples the article regards the current situation is illegitimate" The exact same could be said no matter which way round this is presented, as putting For and then Against could equally to some imply that the article regards the current situation to be legitimate. Of course it is the most often used format, however on the other hand, having it as Against forst is putting it in alphabetical order. And this edit summary comment, "Granted, one has to come first, however "against/for" draws the readers eyes to it as it is not the generally accepted way of presenting an argument" - the opinion that something is drawing the readers eyeys to it is not a valid reason to revert something. I am not suggesting that it should be one way or the other, however it would be better to discuss it here rather than edit warring. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 21:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to add - as this is in dispute, I have reverted the format back to how it was orignally as is normal in these instances, until such time as this is sorted. Please do not change this again until this is resolved on here. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 22:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And AviatonIsLife, I am not suggesting either way is correct, I was merely commenting, I agree that the apolitical links, if it was alphabetical, are in the wrong place, but I was just trying to initiate discussion by my post, to try and avoid the edit war. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 22:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair play, best it stays this way till it's hammered out.  Only reason I commented was I thought it would be ruder to ignore points you made ;-) Have to admit, my knowledge of customs here is v. limited.AviatonIsLife 22:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like Apolitical, then For and Against -- Apolitical first for NPOV; For and then Against because of English grammar or linguistic convention: "for and against", "pros and cons", etc etc. --PalaceGuard008 06:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: While the current set-up seems fine, a "pro-PRC" and "anti-PRC might have worked as well. TewfikTalk 07:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: I removed the unsourced content "the Tibetans were in favour of having all of the Chinese troops return to China"
Primary sources like Sir Charles Bell's "Tibet Past and Present" provide totally different accounts:
:"The Chinese officials...lessened the brides taken by the Tibetan officials from the poorer classes, and...gave straighter justice than that dealt out by the Tibetan magistry. There is no doubt the poorer classes in Tibet were in favor of China"[Bell, 1927]
:"There is undoubtedly a pro-Chinese party in Tibet among the officials, the priests, and the people...[such] element in Tibet should not be underestimated"[ibid]
- 210.0.204.29 04:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea how reliable Bell is, but only the first quotation seems to give a "totally different account". The second one presupposes that the officials, priests, and people are primarily anti-Chinese, but cautions against seeing this view as monolithic.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 21:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: Please see the new proposal I've proposed at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Tibetan)/proposal 2 and discuss at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Tibetan)/proposal 2. I also added a brief introduction here —Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 20:54, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New proposal for Tibetan naming conventions 

message: I once again removed the country template which was already discussed months ago with no consensus. Most of the items on the list are blatantly POV. For example, anyone who has basic knowledge knows that the Flag of Tibet and the Seal of Tibet only represent the Tibetan exiled community instead of the geographical region. There is no official language for the Tibet region(Qinghai included, western Sichuan included?) which are officially divided by at least three administrative divisions.
And .TI is a joke! Editors or vandalists who add/support the template should go and ask ICANN whether Tibet has its own (proposed )ccTLD!
Please be serious! Do some factchecking before you make any edits on wiki.
--219.79.120.208 02:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, I have already pointed out to you in reply to your message on my talk page that I made a mistake. It is 3.30 in the morning here, I'm half alseep and I made an error. Please though refrain from attacking other users and read WP:NPA - comment on the content not the contributor. I should have checked more than I did when I reverted your edit though, more fool me for doing so when not fully awake.♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 02:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I take it as a personal attack, then it is an attack. WP:NPA. I said nothing when User:SwedishZeta added the template as I didn't even notice it, not having looked at the article then. How many differnt times on your talk page and on here do you want me to say that I made a mistake? Apart from which you fail to point out that I actually agreed with you over the template. So no it is not double standards. ♦Tangerines♦·Talk 20:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV template