Talk:Fernando Collor de Mello/Archive 1

message: Removed little vandalism in his name (Bichona, Portuguese for 'Big Faggot/queer'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.11.84.23 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 29 April 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: Can anyone show Collor is divorced? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.7.87.89 (talk • contribs) 23:44, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Divorced?

message: Collor was the president of Brazilian football club CSA in 1976. This info should be mentioned in the article. Source of the info: Guia dos Curiosos. Regards, Carioca 23:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: CSA

message: * Wow.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.78.247.150 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elected 

message: This article suffers from NPOV shortcomings, particularly when the economy is involved. He was allegedly battling inflation? Allegedly? What the heck does that mean? Who are these experts who dispute his plan? None have names. A little attribution and more care would go a long way.--Thatnewguy 16:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Changed to a generic Brazilian Portuguese. Why the hell it had an European one is beyond me. Macgreco 22:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA pronunciation 

message: Why putting his nationality as NOT-AMERICAN?? Don't you think that this sound as Americanism?
Of course Collor is brazilian! TheUnpluggedGuy 02:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not american?? 

message: FCM was Impeached! Why isn't this important fact mentioned in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fornari (talk • contribs) 15:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about his Impeachment ? 

message: :I don´t know what other points you´d like me to answer. I dont´know how old are you...
::Evil is an adjective. Pioneirism is a noun.
:This conversation is rather pointless --you cant´s say someone is an evil --this is offensive and a personal attack. You can say someone is a pioneer, like Dummont, Newton. I have to go. Unless you can prove he was not a pioneer, you will have to leave it there.Ludovicapipa yes? 21:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pls, you deleted teh last paragraph. You can´t do that if the content is fully justified and presents citations. Iam not doing that with yr work. Ludovicapipa yes? 21:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I intend to write a whole paragraph abt his return to the polictical scenario. If you continue to do that you are not with good faith at all. Ludovicapipa yes? 21:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Fernando Collor resigned his term in office just before brazilian senate voted for his impeachment. Newspapers cried it was a victory for democracy. Brazil´s very first democraticly elected president fled out of office just before he was impeached by congress because of excessive corruption in his government in 1992. It was the first time the congress dismissed the president without any military interference. For Brazilians, most from the left-wing, Fernando Collor was and still is a shame for Brazilians who trusted him to create a never seen before democratic republic. For many others brazilians, he was even a victim and a hero. Brazilian modernization, privatization and free trade were all beginned by Fernando Collor in 1990 decade. Buying imported goods became a normal thing for Brazilians during Collor's presidency. His political economy of privatization and free trade was then followed by the next two governments until our days: Fernando Henrique Cardoso and Lula da Silva [8]."
1) "Fernando Collor resigned his term in office just before brazilian senate voted for his impeachment." That's already in the impeachment section below. --Dali-Llama 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll remove it, as you don't seem to have a problem with it. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn´t write this but will try to find citations. On the next week. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, so I'll remove it until citations are provided. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Also very easy to provide citations. Is that what you want? Ludovicapipa yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree citations are easy. So I'll remove it until they're provided. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Where is it repeated? Ludovicapipa yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You just removed it. =) --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: You can check the citation: from "Scielo" link. It´s there! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the issue of a repeated statement. That's solved now. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I will provide citations, although I was not the author of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, so again, I'll remove it until the citation is provided. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: What´s the problem with this? Economic indiccators, fully cited. Facts and numbers of reality. It also shows that the end of inflation, free trade, privatization all begun with him --and remained tan agenda for the following administrations.Ludovicapipa yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not disputing the facts and figures: The figures are correct. I disputing that the paragraph makes it seem that these inflation rates have a direct correlation with the Plano Collor. By saying "Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan", that is an assertion you're making and that you do not have a reliable source for (therefore it's original research). To be honest, all the inflation rates you mention--from 1994 onwards--are all during and after the Plano Real. How Plano Collor relates is NOT obvious from the source you've provided. Economically, the Plano Collor and Plano Real did completely diferent things, both with their advantages and disadvantages. It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here). Again, if you can find a source which credits these inflation rates to Plano Collor, then I'll agree to keep it, but until then, this is WP:OR and must go. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn´t understand this. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In a nutshell: Write the paragraphs you'd like, as long as facts are properly cited (WP:RS) and you're not drawing any conclusions of your own (WP:OR. If I remove your content, it is your job to prove that it is true, not mine to prove it isn't (WP:V). --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Last reply

message: :Fernando Collor resigned his term in office just before brazilian senate voted for his impeachment. Newspapers cried it was a victory for democracy. Brazil´s very first democraticly elected president fled out of office just before he was impeached by congress because of excessive corruption in his government in 1992. It was the first time the congress dismissed the president without any military interference. For Brazilians, most from the left-wing, Fernando Collor was and still is a shame for Brazilians who trusted him to create a never seen before democratic republic. For many others brazilians, he was even a victim and a hero. Brazilian modernization, privatization and free trade were all beginned by Fernando Collor in 1990 decade. Buying imported goods became a normal thing for Brazilians during Collor's presidency.
::I agree to delete this paragraph. Ludovicapipa yes? 22:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I agree 

message: :I think it looks very good now
:Ludovicapipa yes? 12:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good now

message: :Hello,
:Iam not putting word son yr mouth. The issue here is not our opinion --it´s Collor´s goals. There are hundreds of links that fully prove that the battle againt hyper-inflation(which his plan in fact won!) was the core of his government.
:The artcile is not what we think abt Collor, but histpry and reality facts. We donot matter, he matters, history matters. All links provided fully point to that.
::He said :
::it is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here).
:Ludovicapipa yes? 16:38-16:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Us?

message: Well, as I quoted below [above] you agree he ended hyper-inflation. Iam not malicious: the reality is driving, giving us direction towards his accomplishments. All links provided prove that:
1. Ended hyper-inflation (with which you agreed); Yr words: "It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed";
2. Inflation declined by 1994 (with FHC); all links provided prove FHC follow his macroeconomic agenda. Although you can say a few detalis were different (of course, another world/local scenario), he maintained privatization, free trade, debt reduction (once he found a comfortable secenario with no pressure of hyper-inflation) this agenda begun with Collor; If you don´t agree with that you must prove the contrary, you must offer link that deny that --and not put the blame on me, by saying "Iam driving the text".
3. Once you provide link, citations, quotations, then we can start talking;
4. This link  talks abt "revolution", abt "there is no word to express what this woman accomplished in such a short period of time"; and "end of hyperinflation". "Só isso já bastaria para que a ministra Zélia fosse reconhecida como alguém que assentou tijolos importantes na catedral da estabilização".
:4(a): This link  also cites the "end of hyper-inflation", the free trade, competiotion and provatization;
5. Here, again: the continiyu from Collor to FHC to Lula ;
6. A link to the privatizatio issue and all its benefits: 
7. The continiy again from Collor to FHC, to Lula: "Tais políticas - iniciadas com a abertura do governo Collor - foram continuadas por Fernando Henrique Cardoso e Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, segundo economistas e industriais ouvidos pela Folha." 
8. Collor privatized 15 government-owned companies:  Programa Nacional de Desestatização:   -- 
9. According to Bresser Pereira: "O governo Collor mudou a agenda política do país, pois conseguiu implementar reformas corajosas e muito necessárias, e buscou o ajustamento fiscal. Embora outras tentativas tenham sido feitas desde 1987, foi durante o governo Collor que as velhas idéias nacional-desenvolvimentistas foram efetivamente enfrentadas e combatidas (...) por um programa corajoso de reformas econômicas orientadas para a liberalização comercial e a privatização. (...) E o fato de um líder político adotar políticas de ajustamento fiscal e reformas orientadas para o mercado não significa que seja um neoliberal."  
: "Collor iniciou o programa nacional de privatização no Brasil, mas as mais importantes privatizações, e de longe o maior número delas, aconteceram durante o primeiro governo de Fernando Henrique Cardoso. Em 1998, Fernando Henrique já tinha privatizado a Companhia Vale do Rio Doce - CVRD, uma das maiores e mais rentáveis empresas estatais do país, assim como muitos outros monopólios de utilidade pública (água, rodovias e energia elétrica"   
10. Links concerning Collor´s economic agenda and the citations of a continuity from him to FHC and Lula are important in order to offer the reader a proper context of Collor´s place in the history and how his accomplishments are still playing an impotrtant part of our reality.
11. Temos aí o início do que chamamos de aventura, ou calvário, dos servidores públicos federais contra esse Estado neoliberal, uma transição em curso para uma possível quarta fase do Estado brasileiro, que pretendia — e ainda pretende — destruir totalmente a propriedade estatal em nosso País. Esse é o modelo apresentado e já em andamento no segundo mandato de Fernando Henrique. Sabemos que o ex-Presidente Collor privatizou e extinguiu órgãos, entretanto a fragilidade de sua figura, a representação de seu Governo, as próprias irregularidades não permitiram que esse processo fosse consolidado. Aí veio esse processo de transição do Governo Itamar Franco. Esse projeto foi gestado e organizado para aplicação nacional. As principais ações foram as de elaborar uma política monetária que levou ao nascimento do Plano Real e do real em si e forjou um Presidente que pudesse articular os diversos setores dominantes, e esse Presidente foi Fernando Henrique Cardoso.  
Ludovicapipa yes? 17:14-18:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links again

message: I don´t know if that suffices.... I hope so and if this is not sufficient, I do look forward to see links that could deny all these. I also hope we can percolate to History of Brasil and Collor Plan, or any other artcile concerning these issues. Ludovicapipa yes? 18:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ?

message: :Tech revolution is cited in "Isto é Dinheiro" link;
::Large scale is quantity, many, dozens of compnies were privatized.
:yr infos are wrong, uncited, misleading --and yr are showing explicty no good faith, reverting Plano Collor. There is no problem with copy/paste --the core of the Plano Collor is already written.
:You can keep this reference to not-guilty after impeachment.
:Ludovicapipa yes? 20:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't add any info! Overall, I'm trying to remove information which two separate editors have found to be WP:OR and WP:POV! In the case of technological revolution, that's NOT in the source--they don't mention the word technology. So that's an unsourced conclusion. And what you said about the non-guilty thing I don't understand: What do you mean I can keep it? --Dali-Llama 20:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Priv. and tech revolution

message: :Thus, as a result of Congress Country Studies  , inflation reached 50 percent per month by June 1994 and averaged 31.2 percent a month in 1994, for total of 2,294.0 percent that year. Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan (Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Collor´s successor), inflation declined to monthly rates of between 1 and 3 percent in 1995, for an annual rate of 25.9 percent. In 1996: 16.5 percent; 1997: 7.2 percent. By 2006: 3,18% annualy. Inflação permanece estável e deve fechar 2006 em 3,15%, revela pesquisa.
Why are you reverting something that two different people have told you shouldn't be here? --Dali-Llama 20:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inflation 

message: :you two can agree -- but must cite, provide links. I did provide several links that prove that Collor started a macroeconomic agenda that FHC inherited and expanded, so did Lula. If you two can deny this, then we can start to discuss.  Ludovicapipa yes? 20:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And for the 8th time: Positive affirmations require positive proof. You're saying that the inflation for the next 14 years was inherited from Collor. The source you've provided does not affirm that, as Coren has confirmed. You need to find a source which states that and until then it should not be in the article. --Dali-Llama 20:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: :This link provides the proof, along with the others:   Tais políticas - iniciadas com a abertura do governo Collor - foram continuadas por Fernando Henrique Cardoso e Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, segundo economistas e industriais ouvidos pela Folha. O binômio juros altos e câmbio valorizado, que marcou tanto o governo do PSDB quanto o do PT, seria o principal responsável pelo estrangulamento do setor, segundo esses analistas.
:Anyway, can you offer a link to deny that. You can´t just delete without proof.
:The Bresser Pereira PDF also provides that.  I´d like Coren and you to provide a link.  Ludovicapipa yes?
:: THAT'S NOT TALKING ABOUT INFLATION! THAT was mine and Coren's point! You keep going on these proxy conclusions which completely violate WP:OR. It's the Koprowki example I gave before. You use a completely disconnected source and try to link them together to make a point! --Dali-Llama 20:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proof

message: :By that time he lost his rights but they were restored. And he could ryn teh elections -- and win. You didnt´mention that. Did you?Ludovicapipa yes? 00:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Political rights restoration

message: It's clear there's no rational argument with you, Ludovica. It's obvious to me your sole intention is to defend Collor, and not to improve the article. This was evident to me when you gave me a link where you blatantly searched Google for evidence which supported your viewpoints (here. I've tried to propose compromise edits, I've recognized significant contributions Collor has made--you still will not accept any changes (even grammar corrections). Whenever I made edits to issues which you did not respond to, I've been reverted. You've made personal attacks and questioned my age (!?). I brought in another editor to give an opinion: he disagreed with you, and you ignored him. You then had two experienced Wikipedia editors telling you that your edits were against policy and you rejected our opinions. I won't get into an edit war with you. I'm asking for an RfC.--Dali-Llama 00:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is impressive. 

message: Lula está aplicando a cartilha do FMI e aprofundando a política econômica de FHC. Os banqueiros receberam R$ 51 bilhões de juros em 5 meses. Lula está desviando mais dinheiro para pagar juros das dívidas aos banqueiros do que o governo anterior. Aceitou concluir a negociação da Alca em 2005. Em vez de reestatizar empresas privatizadas, permite que as multinacionais aumentem tarifas em mais de 29%.  
Ludovicapipa yes? 00:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pstu opinion

message: ::Sexta, 14 de julho de 2006, 20h28 Atualizada às 21h00
: Lula se diz longe da esquerda e quer manter política econômi 
: http://noticias.terra.com.br/eleicoes2006/interna/0,,OI1070437-EI6652,00.html
: Ludovicapipa yes? 01:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lula´s interview

message: Lula and Palocci following FHC agenda:  
Ludovicapipa yes? 01:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Isto é