Talk:Orchestrion

message: This article belongs in several musical instrument categories, not just pipe organ, as it describes several different instruments. Andrewa 13:00, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not pipe organs as such, but more like reed organs if I recall correctly. Kortoso (talk) 23:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: ... and it goes on to name 3; none of these, however, are the one in the picture? —porges(talk) 00:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name "orchestrion" has also been applied to three specific musical instruments 

message: Hello everyone,
The early definitions (presumably from an equally early dictionary) in your article are interesting and probably true, however they stop in the 1850's, and [in my opinion, based upon what I have seen] most orchestrions existing today were built circa 1880-1930. I think it is more in order to define what an orchestrion is as relates to existing, mass-produced general sub-categories of instruments, rather than referring to three specific, unique early instuments, none of which (to my knowledge) survives today. So, keep the early definitions for the origin of the word, and some flavor, and here goes:
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Basically, in a nutshell, an orchestrion is an self-playing, INDOOR instrument (this disqualifies fairground organs, which are generally voiced loudly and originally intended for outdoor use only), which is SELF-CONTAINED in one or several decorated cabinets, (rather than dance organs which have several cabinets to which a facade is attached, like a fairground organ). 
The action of the orchestrion may be mechanical, pneumatic, or electric (or some combination of the above), but usually it contains either a PIANO, ORGAN pipes, or both, plus additional instruments. 
The earliest orchestrions did not always have percussion (some early Black Forest instruments, early Imhof and Mukle, etc.), but generally, most orchestrions are distinguished from mere player pianos and player pipe organs by the added PERCUSSION instruments, as well as (usually) pipes which are voiced to imitate as closely as possible the sounds of orchestral instruments. In a few rare cases, an orchestrion may contain real violins, but most automatic violin players have just violin(s) and piano, (or only the violin) and thus are not normally considered orchestrions.
Street pianos with drums are generally not orchestrions, although they are very close cousins of the coin-operated cylinder pianos with extra instruments (used in cafe's, beer halls, etc) which are. In fact, the only real distinction in many cases is that the latter are self-powered via a weight, spring, etc. whereas the former need the constant attention of an operator (hand-cranking), but occasionally, one might sometimes find a hand-cranked street piano with drums brought indoors and used to entertain patrons. (Then again, one might sometimes find street barrel organs brought inside for the same purpose; they are still obviously not the same as indoor cylinder organs considered "orchestrions").
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Instruments which are considered true orchestrions are:
A. cylinder-operated pianos (usu. mechanical action) with drums, occasionally other tuned percussion, pipes, etc. which are designed for indoor use and self-powered (and often, though not always, coin-operated).
B. cylinder-operated pipe organs (mechanical or pneumatic action) with drums, and usually no keyboard for manual playing, and generally with the pipes voiced to imitate as closely as possible orchestral instruments, rather than reproducing normal organ (even late romantic/orchestral organ) tones. (and designed for indoor use, and self-powered)
C. disc-operated pianos (mechanical action) with drums, and occasionally bells, organ pipes, etc.
D. cardboard-book operated pianos (mechanical or pneumatic action) with drums and usually other instruments, designed for indoor use and self-powered.
E. cardboard-book operated organs (usually pneumatic action) with drums which are self-contained with a furniture-type front, voiced softly for indoor use, and usually set up for some kind of automatic attendant-free operation.
F. paper-roll operated pianos (mechanical, pneumatic, or electric action) with drums and often other instruments, which are self-powered.
G. paper-roll operated organs (usu. pneumatic or rarely, electric action) with drums and often other instruments, which are self-powered, self-contained, and designed for indoor use.
Of course, many consider the "ultimate" "classic" orchestrions to be the cabinet-style instruments combining piano (and usually, many organ pipes), and many percussions, into a cohesive ensemble, controlled by a paper roll. These "piano-orchestrions" by Hupfeld, Weber, Philipps, Popper, Losche, etc. in Europe, and Seeburg, Nelson-Wiggen, Coinola, etc. in the U.S., are considered defining examples of what an orchestrion is, and were almost always originally designated "orchestrion" by the makers, regardless of what subsequent collectors called them over the years. 
The largest models (such as the Hupfeld Helios V, Popper Goliath, Philipps Monstre Paganini or Pianella Orchestra, etc.), contain so many pipes, voiced so characteristically, and with many extending all the way into the low bass range, that they can properly be considered equally piano-type and organ-type orchestrions, rather than the smaller types where the piano tends to dominate and/or provide a necessary foundation for the pipes. Such an orchestrion, especially with a large percussion section, is considered by some to be "complete", although a few other smaller orchestrions have bowed- or plucked-string instruments in addition to the piano, pipes, and percussion.
In all cases, there are five defining factors which make each instrument an "orchestrion": 
1. they are SELF-CONTAINED in a case or cases (no additional carved facade, except in a couple of rare instances), 
2. they are SELF-POWERED (using a weight, spring, water motor, electric motor, etc), 
3. they are designed for INDOOR USE only and thus are voiced more softly than outdoor instruments, and not built as robustly, 
4. they usually have PERCUSSION effects of some kind, and finally, 
5. they play ALL the instruments AUTOMATICALLY, themselves, without requiring an operator to manually play any of the contained effects. (This is to rule out photoplayers, where sound effects and (sometimes) the pipe registers and percussion effects must be played by hand, by an attendant operator.) 
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Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. Here are some of the more notable ones:
1. "no separate facade" rule:
The rare Gavioli Piano-Quator orchestrion (only one known example existing today) has a carved facade similar to a fairground organ, separate from the main case. However, this is most definitely an orchestrion with a (keyboardless) piano, softly-voiced pipes for indoor listening, and a triangle. Interestingly, the chassis of the instrument is built similar to a normal fairground organ, and it even plays carboard books using a keyframe. However, this was NOT meant to be an outdoor instrument, nor can it be considered a "dance organ". The facade is finished in normal wood colors and thus can be considered a "furniture front" despite the form and carving which are essentially in the style of a regular small fairground organ.
the organ-orchestrions of Mortier, Decap, Bursens, etc. are built similar to a regular dance organ (by the respective maker) except that they are generally contained in one case instead of several cases. The "front" is a facade attached to the chassis in the manner of a fairground or dance organ; however the character of the front is markedly different; instead of the flat panels with ostentatious carving, many colors, and gold (or silver) leaf, the fronts of the orchestrion-organs are subued furniture-style fronts with hanging lamps, mirrors, mesh panels with fretwork etc. in the manner of most European piano-orchestrions, and are thus quite different in execution than a dance organ facade.
3. "indoor-use only" rule:
The Welte brass band orchestrion series was highly unusual in that they were loudly voiced to imitate a brass band, and were designed to compete with fairground and band organs made by others (Welte also sold regular fairground organs made by other makers). I do not know if they brass band series were built in any special way to handle the climate changes of outdoor use, but probably not. From all appearances, they were built exactly like the normal Welte organ-type orchestrions, except for the much louder pipe voicing and special pipe voices they selected. However, old photos show these instruments being used in outdoor band shells and also in carousels, thus substituting for the regular band organs. There are only two Welte brass band orchestrions exisiting today, and both were originally used indoors in huge dance pavilions. So far as is known, no other orchestrion manufacturer attemped to introduce another series of orchestrion for outdoor use, at least not without radically modifying the design and layout of components.
4. "must have percussion" rule:
Certain early cylinder organ-orchestrions from the mid-19th century (such as a few made by Imhof and Mukle and others) have no percussion effects of any sort, yet are considered orchestrions because of the very characteristic nature of their pipework (different in voicing, and sometimes construction, from normal pipe organ pipework) and the layout and design of their components. The musical arrangements on the cylinders are also in what might be called an orchestrion "style", rather than the style reserved for more typical chamber pipe organs played by cylinder. Examples of these percussion-less orchestrions may be found in the photos sections of the book "Barrel Organ" by Arthur W.J.G. Ord-Hume. A known American organ-orchestrion by the Buffalo, NY builder Bernhard Dufner has no drums or cymbals, but a set of tuned bells as the only percussion complement to the pipes, and yet is certainly an orchestrion.
Some European collectors, museum curators and enthusiasts call pianos with one or two extra instruments (such as organ pipes, a xylophone, or real violins) an "orchestrion", and the jury is still out on whether or not they are right. 
Certainly, both in Europe and America around the turn of the 20th century, the definition of "orchestra" was rather different than it was today. An "orchestra" could consist of as little as three musicians, such as a pianist, a flautist, and a violinist. Sometimes there would be a drummer but not always. Today, we would call such small groups a "trio" (or quartet, etc.) or maybe a "band" or even a "combo" depending upon the style of music, but "orchestra" today connotes a much larger ensemble.
A Weber Unika with a piano and single rank of finely-voiced violin pipes may be more properly considered a violin imitator than an orchestrion, while the American Seeburg E coin piano with violin pipes is just that, a coin piano with pipes, with no additional expression mechanisms to add dynamics to the pipes, nor any particularly realistic voicing of the pipes themselves. A Seeburg KT with pipes and small percussion, or a style L orchestra with pipes and drums, is more properly an orchestrion.
5. "must play every instrument automatically" rule:
The exceptions to this rule are a few extremely rare varieties of piano orchestrion.
Early Peerless and Berry-Wood orchestrions, such as the Peerless DX, DM, and A; and the Berry-Wood A.O.H. (and A.O.H.R.), contained organ pipes or tuned percussions but had no way of turning those extra instruments on and off automatically from the roll. They simply played continuously along with the piano unless shut off manually by the operator. Later orchestrions by these same makers took into account the innovations of others and quickly adopted new roll scales with automatic register holes for pipe control. Wurlitzer was the only American holdout who still kept an inadequate system of controlling extra instruments, in their APP and Pianino roll scales.
The above instruments did not control everything automatically; the below instruments, on the other hand, DO play everything automatically PLUS have the unusual feature of also being hand-playable:
The larger Rhapsodist orchestrions, "manufactured" in Louisville, Kentucky, all apparently had extra switches to the sides of the piano keyboard (plus extra foot pedals, and apparently a "neutral" feature for the music roll) whereby a human musician could turn on the pumps of the instrument and then play the entire thing by hand, pipes, drums and all, besides the regular paper roll feature.
A very few Seeburg and Coinola instruments (the latter sold by Welte under the "Multitone" name) had extra foot pedals and switches in exactly the same manner, where a human musician could play the orchestrion entirely by hand. This is extremely unusual, and the one known custom Seeburg G orchestrion of this type appeared on Ebay a few years ago and brought a suitably impressive price. In most keyboard-type orchestrions, only the piano is playable by hand, and of course, in cabinet-type orchestrions, NOTHING is playable by hand.
5a. Photoplayers:
I made mention of theatre photoplayers earlier. Basically, a photoplayer is a large piano orchestrion (or rarely, a self-contained theatre organ without a piano, using a vacuum rather than electro-pneumatic action), which is entirely hand-playable, and built in a series of low, nondescript cabinets for placement beneath a movie screen, for the purposes of accompanying silent movies. In all photoplayers, however, at least some of the sound effects are in no way playable by the paper roll and must be operated manually by an attendant while watching to properly "cue" the film. 
Photoplayers came in many different varieties. Some of them used regular home player piano rolls (American, and some Wurlitzer and Seeburg), while others used orchestrion rolls (most Wurlitzer, Seeburg, etc). A few used special photoplayer rolls (Cremona, North Tonawanda, etc.). In the latter cases, even the special photoplayer rolls did not automatically activate the sound effects, such as horse trot, bird whistle, fire gong, etc. since these were expected to be manually "cued" to the movie. And, of course, the photoplayers which used regular 88-note rolls required the operator to do EVERYTHING short of playing the actual notes on the keyboard, in order to keep up the effect of having a small orchestra or organist accompanying the picture. ("everything" included turning on and off ranks of pipes at appropriate times, playing all the untuned percussion parts on the buttons, foot pedals, and pull cords, and adding sound effects at appropriate moments). Of course, no matter what kind of roll the instrument used, a classy theatre expected the operator to switch between rolls fairly often to "cue" the changing scenes for appropriate emotions, action, and setting.
Some original ignorant photoplayer owners were content to turn them on and let them play all day without regards to the changing requirements of the movie on the screen, but this had been done earlier with normal orchestrions (before audiences became critical of having the music match the picture), and this was not what photoplayers were designed for.
There are very few photoplayers existing today (probably less than a hundred out of the thousands that were built) and they are considered very close cousins of the orchestrion, but not "pure" orchestrions themselves. They have a lot in common with the later theatre organ.
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"classic" examples of the different types of orchestrion which can be depicted by photos on the Wikipedia page include:
A. a cafe cylinder piano-orchestrion with percussion (too many different makers to list), this type piano made all over Europe, in France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, etc.
B. an early Welte or Imhof and Mukle cylinder organ-orchestrion
C. Polyphon Concerto orchestrion (disc-operated piano with drums)
D. an early 1890s Frati piano-orchestrion, book-operated, with pipes, drums, etc.
E. a Mortier (or Joseph Bursens, Decap etc) book-operated organ-orchestrion, (with a furniture-type front etc.)
F-1. a Seeburg G piano-orchestrion (tall case, keyboard) [alternatives: Cremona J, Wurlitzer BX, CX, Peerless Arcadian, etc.)
F-2. a Coinola X piano-orchestrion (short case, keyboard) [alternatives: Coinola C-2, etc.]
F-3. a Hupfeld Helios piano-orchestrion (tall case, no keyboard) [alternatives: many by Hupfeld, Philipps, Popper, Weber, Losche, etc.]
F-4. a Nelson-Wiggen model 4X piano-orchestrion (short case, no keyboard) [alternatives: Seeburg KT, KT Special; Link 2-B; Nelson-Wiggen model 6, etc.]
G. a Welte cottage or concert organ-orchestrion, such as a model 2, 3, or 4.
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I hope this isn't too confusing, invite others to join the debate, and encourage you to try to figure it out on your own.
sincerely,
Andrew Barrett
P.S. I refer you to the "Dictionary" section in the back of Q. David Bowers' monumental tome, "The Encyclopedia of Automatic Musical Instruments" (Vestal Press, 1972) for a more concise definition of what an orchestrion is.
P.P.S. the photo in your article is of an important Welte orchestrion built in 1862 for a German noble. It was not the first Welte orchestrion but was an especially large and fine one and was bought back and kept on display in the showroom/museum near the factory, until the entire complex was obliterated by Allied bombs during WWII. 
As related in Arthur Ord-Hume's book, "Barrel Organ", the earliest orchestrions were experimental orchestral-type cylinder organs with percussion effects. Notable among these are Maelzel's Panharmonicon, and Gurk's Panharmonicon (apparently a similar, but different instrument), both from the 1830s or earlier. Michael Welte's first Orchestrion dated to 1848 or 1849, depending on the source. Kaufmann's Orchestrion was from 1851.
-- 98.148.94.170 (talk) 09:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: they can be played without the typical mechanics Prisms and rain (talk) 06:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is an orchestrion? 

message: "...to produce a synergy that resulted in some of the most spectacular music machines ever built!"
I suggest stongly the entire sentence to which this clause is the tail, be stricken from the article. B. Polhemus (talk) 02:49, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV?