Talk:Russian famine of 1921–1922

message: *It is policy that it should be obvious to any reader coming from the category to the article that the category applies, and why it applies.
**Therefore add the evidence for genocide first, and then apply the cat.
*Describing even the Holodomor as genocide (rather than, say, mass murder) is iffy, although the case can be made: it requires that Stalin have cared which peasants he starved.
*In 1921,  asserting even that Lenin intended mass death, and the consequent loss of resources to the Bolshevik state, is questionable.  He could have caused millions more deaths by a simple, obvious, and feasible course of action, which he did not take.
**Instead he reversed foreign and domestic policy so as to alleviate the famine.
**Asserting that he intended to destroy any  "national, ethnical, racial or religious group" goes well beyond the evidence. 
*None of this denies the argument, made in the article and by several sources, that Bolshevik dogmatism was one of the causes of the famine. 
*I presume that Ghirlandajo did not intend to remove either sources or supported text by reversion.
**Doing so knowingly  would be vandalism.
Septentrionalis 16:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Genocide

message: The claim of a "second civil war" against the peasantry is unsourced (as is the entire paragraph to which it belongs). The Trotsky paragraph should have a source noted in the References; is it the Life of Lenin? - and why should the reader have to guess? Septentrionalis 01:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It wasn't deleted: it was moved, because it interrupted the paragraph (implicitly) sourced to Kennan. I don't dispute the Trotsky quote, but do find it; if the present link says anything, please add the words to the article. I can't find them here.  Note that it must cover 1921-3, after all but the Japanese had withdrawn; not 1918-1920. Septentrionalis 05:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As this goes on, my patience in waiting for the citation diminishes. Septentrionalis 05:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Original research

message: :Later most of the Russian members organizing the aid was liquidated
Ultramarine, I have no doubts that this sentence is generally correct. However there are two problems with it. First, you took this info from a website of dubious authorsip, which cannot be considered reliable, even if it quotes some books. Hint: Game of telephone. Second, the key is the word "later". During the Great Purge nearly 80% of Old Bolsheviks were "liquidated" (that's why I tend to believe that the statement is true), but there is no reason to think this was related with their activity in Pomgol.  mikka (t) 18:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I promise, I will write the Pomgol article, where, anmong other things, I will describe what and when exactly happened with their members. mikka (t) 18:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Just an example of the general ignorance displayed in the quoted (and deleted) sentence. Pomgol was a statewide effort with thousands of participants in various regional sections. So most probably the phrase meant to speak about Pomgol Central Committee created within VTsIK. mikka (t) 19:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pomgol liquidated 

message: *The Bolsheviks used this as an excuse to liquidate the Orthodox Church
**Very plausible; but a source is needed both for the claimed connection to the famine and that this was only an excuse. Septentrionalis 18:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The famine was absolutely used as a pretext for an assault on the Orthodox church, which was perceived by the Bolsheviks as counterrevolutionary. So why not go to THE ORIGINAL SOURCES on such things, those being Bill Husband's book (cited above), Daniel Peres "Storming the Heavens," and maybe the 2 volume document collection in Russian "Politbiuro i tserkov', 1922-1925"? Carrite (talk) 16:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: I have readded this, with a linking sentence. Any peasant rebellion in 1921 is surely connected with the famine; but I have another reason to want it. The accounts of hostages and poison gas are widely enough distributed over the web that some readers will want to check them out; some PoV editors will want to add them. Including the (quite limited) facts will inform the first, and deter the second. Both are good. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is overwhelmed with things "related", but close to none of the actual topic. Tambov Rebellion is detailed in its own article, but not a single word on the famine itself besides generalities. Copying information from one article to another is rather meaningless in wikipedia, which is not paper, and everything is a mouse click away. Please concentrate on what article title says. In its current state the article is very useless. `'Míkka 17:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It started here. I must further disagree with the cutting of the first World War paragraph; part of Kennan's analysis is that the food supply of Russia was under strain before the crop failure.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tambov rebellion

message: Hello,
There is an issue with the title of this article - there was no Russia in 1921. There was the RSFSR. The article clearly shows that Lenin both indirectly and directly caused this famine. However, it was after the First World War and the Russian civil war. 
The article should, therefore, be renamed something along the lines of "Famine in Soviet Russia - 1921".
Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually there very much WAS a Russia in 1921 — the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic. It's quite proper to speak of "Soviet Russia" up until the establishment of the USSR in 1924. Carrite (talk) 16:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title 

message: I have found a reference which appears to completely contradict the account of relief efforts given here. Norman Bentwich writing in 1954 has: "Anti-Russian propaganda was carried on by the (American) Government, the press, by preachers, lawyers and teachers; and the American people was made to beleave that withholding of relief from Soviet Russia was a democratic virtue. The Friends (Quakers) Service Committee and the Jewish "Joint" Committee, alone of the major philanthropic agencies, were attempting to bring relief to the Russian people, to innocent sufferers, the victims of barbarous pogroms perpetrated under the banners of those counter-revolutionary armies which the American Red Cross had continued to support.*footnote: He (Judah Magnes) had appealed in vain to Hoover to investigate the conditions of the children in Russia with a view to sending relief...etc" (Bentwich, Norman (1954) For Zion's Sake. A Biography of Judah L. Magnes. First Chancellor and First President of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia. Library of Congress Number: 54 7440. Pages 108,109) Padres Hana (talk) 15:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If you need a concise description of what has been going on, have a look on the first pages of volume II of Hoover's memoirs. He mentioned that the Siberian Intervention had been a severe obstacle in reaching a consent with the Soviets. In early 1921 they had negociated with Otto Wolff about buying boiler tubes and rails. The influence of the credit crunch enforced by UK, USA and France would be worth mentioning. ----130.83.117.163 (talk) 17:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV issues II 

message: The references are given in two different standards.  I intend to unify them with Sfn Harvard citations. 189.61.94.90 (talk) 12:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference organisation 

message: The article Cannibalism contains an illustrative image taken from the famine, the caption to which links here. It would be helpful if that topic were addressed in the article. Thmazing (talk) 19:24, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cannibalism 

message: I removed the horror pictures showing children in that position. It is inadequate and unnecessary for an encyclopedia to contain this kind of pictures. That shows more the narzism of the author to use humans in that position as a stylistic method. There are much better suitable pictures about the great famine, expressing situations there, than these pictures. Especially when also children are the audience in form of learning using Wikipedia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.108.130 (talk) 12:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of pictures 

message: The "Russian famine of 1921" article currently states: "At a conference in Geneva on 15 August organised by the International Committee of the Red Cross and the League of Red Cross Societies, the International Committee for Russian Relief (ICRR) was set up with Dr Fridtjof Nansen as its High Commissioner. The main participants were Hoover's American Relief Administration,..." In Bertrand M. Patenaude's The Big Show in Bololand (p. 46) you may read that Hoover avoided all unnecessary European entanglements and kept the ARA appart of the "Nansen mission". ----130.83.23.163 (talk) 13:25, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoover's ARA was not a member of the  "International Committee for Russian Relief" 

message: Do we have any resources for the League of Nations refusing to aid starving Russians? Perhaps another means to crush the burgeoning Socialist state?
-G
:On this subject you may find some information in Kasper Braskén, The International Workers’ Relief, Communism, and Transnational Solidarity: Willi Münzenberg in Weimar Germany, Palgrave Macmillan, Houndsmills 2015, p. 46 (ISBN 978-1-137-30423-0).----79.199.0.72 (talk) 16:39, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The Economic Weapon: The Rise of Sanctions as a Tool of Modern War by Nicholas Mulder discusses how the Allies wanted to undermine the Bolsheviks by cutting off trade to Russia (same as with the Central Powers in general, even after they surrendered). Historian932 (talk) 01:36, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: League of Nations refuses to assist starving Russians

message: This article should elaborate more on the effect of this famine on Volga German populations, perhaps being a consequence of Soviet targeting of this particular ethnic group for destruction. 71.169.181.208 (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have references? I thing not. Ethnic persecutions were started by Stalin. There was none in early 1920s. -M.Altenmann >t 15:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If Lenin wanted a revolution in Germany, why should he starve Germans in Russia?Xx236 (talk) 11:48, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know the exact details but my impression is that the ethnic Germans in Russia had very little contact with people in Germany (entire communities picked up and left), so I don't know if there would have been much of an effect.Historian932 (talk) 01:38, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

text: I don't think it was ethnic persecution until the 1940s for this group, but I heard that there were a lot of kulaks among the German population in Russia. However, time wise, that would still put the persecution in the 1930s, not the 1920s. Nakonana (talk) 16:45, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volga Germans 

message: According to Polyakov the famine continued  from 1919 to 1925. It's a Russian academic text. Xx236 (talk) 11:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  1919-25 

message: Elman has been removed as a source, but his sweeping statement remains. It was added with this edit. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Russian_famine_of_1921–22&diff=next&oldid=430613899
I will remove it, since the edit summary adding it explicitly states it is Elman's own words. Anarchangel (talk) 11:52, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elman 

message: The article has been expanded a little bit by user "Light show". First I am in doubt about following information:
:"After an agreement was finally signed at Riga, the U.S. set up its first kitchen in Petrograd, where 1.6 million people had already starved to death."
As a source there is given Charles Bartlett "U.S. Food Relief for Communists?" (Enquirer and News, Battle Creek, MI, 2 August 1962). If we take the number of "about five million deaths" for true, this would mean that almost one third of the victims had already died before September 1921 — which seems to me not to be believable.
Second the article "Russian famine of 1921–1922" looks like beeing transformed in something I would call an article "American Relief Administration Russian Unit". Things may mostly be true but now there is a slant in the article — the famine seems to be seen only from a single stance.--130.83.152.165 (talk) 14:42, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article revamped on 22 November 2019 

message: It’s for an essay 105.227.3.233 (talk) 07:14, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famine in Russia