Talk:Free software/Archive 5

message: I'm trying to fix the intro, using your version as a base, but it's impossible. I have to fix every single sentence. Here's just another example of poor writing:
:The ability to study and make modified versions of a program is hampered by the practice of distributing programs in a format which computers can run but which humans cannot understand and by withholding the human readable source code, and the FSF's definition of free software includes some requirements related to source code.
*"The ability ... is hampered" - not always! You're writing in the passive voice and it's confusing because the reader isn't told whether this is done intentionally by everyone (including free software distributors), or is it done intentionally by some people, or is it something that's done because it's unavoidable.
*And then you say that FSF's definition "includes some requirements..." Like what? Like that it must be withheld? You're answer might be "Yeh, but I copy'n'pasted the definition down a little lower" - but text should not rely on text that the reader has not gotten to yet for it to be understandable. Every time I try to fix your writing, the result is barely recognisable because so much fixing is needed, so I hope my explanations here help you to understand why I keep rewriting your efforts. Gronky 00:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More problems, and why 70.69.42.228's version is beyond redemption 

message: Ok. I've repeatedly pointed out factual errors in your (70.69.42.228) version, and how your version lacks basic English writing skills. You also don't like my version. It is not acceptable for you to repeatedly revert my edits to restore your version, so we have to find a third way. Let's go back to the way the page was before you landed here and take it slowly, discussing everything that makes you uncomfortable and trying to make small improvements rather than have you just rewrite it the way you like. Gronky 13:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't revert your edits, but my last edit did add new text that you may not have liked. I haven't censored you in any way, I incorporated several parts of your version when I rewrote the introduction, and I modified it many times in response to your complaints. The only edit warring has been on your part. It has been your stance that my contributions are categorically invalid, that my concerns about POV are dismissable, and that you will simply find one reason or another to completely remove any change that I make to the article. Also, I think that you may be at or near the point of violating the three revert rule, and note that it doesn't matter whether I used an indicative verb in the subjunctive mode, or some other horrible quality offense. 70.69.42.228 17:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Your basic premise seems to be that this article should promote the FSF, and that you're not willing to tolerate having the article written from an NPOV, or presenting any downsides, controversy, or limitations of the FSF's definition in a visible location. If that is your stance, I think you'll find that a moderator will side with me on the need to present only the facts of what the FSF says rather than presenting what they say as a fact, and presenting any other pertinent facts (positive or negative) and note worthy opposition. 70.69.42.228 17:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm once again going to restore my work that you reverted, and once again I'm going to try to improve the quality in response to your output and resolve your concerns. Once again, I would ask you not to treat this as an edit war to be resolved by finding a technical way to entirely remove my contributions, but rather, to clean up any problems with my edits, to add or restore anything that you feel I omitted, to resolve any factual errors, to add complaint tags if I've made an unproven but not inherently inaccurate claim, and so on. 70.69.42.228 17:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We're starting again. When you arrived, I let you use this article as a sandbox because I realised you were new (WP:BITE), but that didn't work. So from here on, the article is back to the way it was before you arrived, and you have to make proper edits. If you introduce errors, those will be reverted. This may seem harsh because your current ratio of errors to sentences is about 1:1, but there is no other way. As always, you're welcome to call for moderation any time. Gronky 18:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't stop you from trying to make this an edit war, but given that you're the only party that's conducting unilateral reversion and censorship, that you've already violated the three reversion rule (I think), and that what you're insisting on is easily POV, I suspect you're not doing yourself any favor by thinking of this as a dispute on a personal level, treating it as a power struggle, and refusing to try to resolve it in the form of seeing both of our concerns resolved. 70.69.42.228 18:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, now the reversion and "censorship" isn't unilateral. Also, strictly speaking, Gronky has only made two reversion. Anon: If you want to add content that is likely to be challenged, you're going to have to include sources. The version Gronky tentatively favors has a clear advantage in this department (though isn't perfect). Simões (talk/contribs) 20:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you feel that referring to reversions as censorship qualifies as a personal attack? 70.69.42.228 20:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only way out: back 

message: I've made an userbox that you can put on your userpage, its , but the template also takes an optional parameter, in which you can put anything you like, example  or something. -- Frap 18:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Userbox 

message: I've started a new article, History of free software, to document the way that free software has existed at each point in time during the last half-century or so, and to document the events with major impacts. So it's a timeline kinda article, not an X vs. Y article. Help and references sought. If you have good links to documents by old-timers, that'd be very helpful. Gronky 22:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New article: [[History of free software]] 

message: Can't identify which logo is which, can sum1 who knows which is which label them as 'clockwise from bottom left' or something along these linesPledger166 11:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear logo images 

message: WikiProject Free Software has been set up. It has many people listing themselves as participants, but it seems to still need some leadership and some action to develop the project and to build momentum. Some people from here might be able to help. Gronky 01:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone launched [[WP:WPFS|WikiProject Free Software]] 

message: There's a "POV check" box at the top of the article, which says "See Talk page" - but there's nothing here to explain it. Can someone say what/where the problem is, so that it can be addressed? Thanks. Gronky 18:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I checked that section and made some improvements, and I've asked here for some information on what needs to be checked but have gotten no answer, so I'll remove that tag now. Gronky 18:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What's the neutrality issue? 

message: I decided to read the article through yesterday and found it to be a mess. Information is repeated, sections contain mixes of unrelated info, section titles are inaccurate or meaningless, and there are long tracts of supposition and meandering commentary.
So I'm being bold and putting the like sentences together and inserting titles at each point where the subject changes. Doing this is making the duplicated content obvious, so I'm ending up reducing the number of sentences, and reading each section is revealing many vacuous sentences and unproveable suppositions, which I'm often deleting.
Help appreciated. Do complain if I head in a wrong direction. Gronky 12:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving this page (April) 

message: When I read the section about binary blobs, I was surprised it started suddenly discussing the Bitkeeper controversy. I kept reading, expecting it to be connected somehow to the issue of binary blobs, but there was no connection.
If this was for a lack of examples of binary blob controversies, might I suggest we write about graphics and wifi drivers, and the problems they can cause?
Bitkeeper could be made it's own subsection.
I'm purposely not being bold, as I don't want to unduly mess with an article that has obviously reached some stability. Baeksu 08:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're quite right, and I think that might have been my mistake. That section title should be fixed - and it would be great if someone began a section on the binary blobs issue. Gronky 10:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Binary Blobs and Bitkeeper

message: Lists, such as the Examples section of this article, are not very useful in articles. I was thinking about deleting it, but then I had the better idea of merging it into the history section. I'll give this a try. Gronky 12:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge examples section into history 

message: I have noticed that the logo currently displayed is :image:Floss_draft.png, while the corresponding image page says it has been superseded by :image:Floss_draft.svg. Moreover, the Free software Portal and WikiProject Free Software tags at the top of this very talk page display the latter (although the WikiProject Free Software page does display the PNG). I even seem to remember that the SVG was displayed some time back (or at least another version of the picture, with the three logos in reverse order). Is there a reason for using the PNG (such as that it looks nicer)? — isilanes (talk|contribs) 18:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When making the .svg, the artist made two mistakes. One is the position of the icons, and the other is the transparent background of the GNU head (it should be white) which makes that part of the image unseeable when displayed on some backgrounds. When someone gets around to fixing those, then the .svg will really supercede the .png. Got the time and expertise? Gronky 21:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Could this SVG qualify? If so, I'll fix the links to the PNG. — isilanes (talk|contribs) 11:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thanks for doing that. The name is also good because finally we are out of the "draft" stage :-) Gronky 14:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logo image 

message: I can't believe that ReactOS is mentioned on the same line as GNU/Linux, BSD, Darwin and OpenSolaris. I'm not even sure that ReactOS can boot on real hardware yet, and it certainly isn't a viable OS at this point. All the other non-OS free software that's listed is also stable/useable, so ReactOS sticks out horrendously. Removing. 129.128.210.68 19:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ReactOS? 

message: I have looked at this article and I think it is a mature article with indept insights into the concept of Free Software. Is it fair to try to get this article up to GA level? Daimanta 19:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA request 

message: There's no coherent article on the application of free software philosophy, or free software community practices, to the field of electronics. There are two incoherent articles on related, but not clearly defined, topics (open source hardware and open source design), and there are many articles on specific hardware and technologies (OpenMoko, Simputer, XO-1 (laptop), FPGA, OpenSPARC, etc.). But there is no good article with a well defined topic and relevent content. If I'm wrong, can someone point me to the right article? Otherwise, do people think we could write an article on this? Any ideas/notes/comments about the title or scope? Gronky 18:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Free software ideas and hardware 

message: * http://linuxfinances.info/info/freeecon.html
* http://linuxfinances.info/info/freeeconfallacies.html
The second link is, in my opinion, the most valuable. It explains how free software aids capitalism, makes software development cheaper, etc. SteveSims 04:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A great site clarifying (proprietary) misconceptions about free software 

message: A  tag has been added to this article. Can someone (anyone - but especially the person who added the tag) say what sentences we need to find references for?
I like  tags, so if someone adds a few, there is a good chance I will go dig up the required references. --Gronky 03:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are too many refs needed for {fact} tags to be used. Please see and Wikipedia:When to cite and WP:LEAD for guidance. Johnfos 04:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, well thanks for raising the issue. Is there anyone else out there who can give some ideas about what statements need references? --Gronky 08:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What statements need sources? 

message: Under the history section, it is mentioned;
"It is important to note, however, that in many categories, free software for individual workstation or home users has only a fraction of the market share of their proprietary competitors."
However, in the next paragraph;
"The economic advantages of the free software model have been recognised by large corporations such as IBM, Red Hat, and Sun Microsystems."
Having only a fraction of the market share, sounds like a disadvantage, not an advantage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.26.122.12 (talk) 06:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IBM, Red Hat, and Sun Microsystems - like the majority of the software industry - don't focus on software for individual workstation or home users. Chandon (talk) 08:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradictory

message: It just hit me that the BitKeeper and binary blobs sections are not really about free software at all but are about the reactions and relationship between those issues and the supporters of the free software movement. I suggest moving those two sections to that other article and making the patents section a toplevel section itself - or patents and legal issues. --Gronky 09:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move controversies to movement article? 

message: Many sections have no references. Article has "pro-free software" POV. Rewrite the lead section. --Kaypoh 03:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. Thanks for the pointers, I'll get to work on them. --Gronky 19:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed GA 

message: Someone's added tags suggesting that The Free Software Definition be merged into this article. I'm not sure it's a good idea. Although FSF's definition was the first, "free software" is no longer a uniquely FSF thing - but "The Free Software Definition" is. --Gronky 14:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If a company calls its “open” software “free software”, that doesn't make it free… but who defines that, if not FSF? --AVRS 21:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, right, DFSG. Sorry, please ignore that comment, as I didn't read the article, and presumed that people might not follow the FS Definition link (as it would be the only one). --AVRS 21:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge in FSF's definition? 

message: FYI: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Free_and_open_source_software
--Gronky 13:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afd: [[Free and open source software]] 

message: discuss a merger at Talk:Free_and_open_source_software#Merge_FS_.2B_OSS_here Lentower 01:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Result of AfD was '''Keep'''

message: Giftware redirects here, but the article doesn't explain what it is. Please fix it. Shinobu (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giftware? 

message: "A Free Open-Source Software Resource", http://www.zentu.net is a site I pay money for, out of my own pocket, to inform people about the benefits of Free Open-Source Software. I have never been paid a penny for any of its content, nor accepted any donations. It is not link-spam or a money-making venture; it's useful, relevant, and informative, a collection of "weeded" and excellent resources and products from the Free Software World. People have a right to know these things. Thank you. - Shawnee :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Indiejade (talk • contribs) 00:00, Dezember 16, 2007 (UTC)
:This article is about free software. If you had read it you would know that the free software ideology opposes the Open Source ideology. So your link can't comply with WP:WEB. --mms (talk) 00:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nevetheless, you must admit the website is of marginal popularity, with a very low PageRank. Why not wait until it has at least PR=5? Pundit|utter 04:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

text: That is your opinion. Please do not edit or ask me to remove my contribution; yours is not any more or less "valuable" than mine. Please respect my contribution and leave it alone. Indiejade (talk) 21:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please explain what content at zentu.net is significant, notable, or not available at better-known and well-established sites. I followed every link I could find and looked at every page and observed none. The site is nothing more than collection of links to various open source projects, and not a particularly good one at that. Until it becomes something significant, please refrain from adding it to articles on Wikipedia. RossPatterson (talk) 21:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

text: The Wikipedia article List of open source software packages, already referenced in this article, does a much better job of categorizing and enumerating packages than your website does. It also has both the advantage of being part of Wikipedia and of linking to the many package articles Wikipedia already contains. As a rule, Wikipedia prefers internal links to other articles over external links. RossPatterson (talk) 22:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "A Free Open-Source Software Resource" Relevance == Informative 

message: I'm going to remove the bit on freedomware, which is supported by some blog references. There's not much on google, the top hit is a clothing company. And there's not enough searches for trends. --h2g2bob (talk) 23:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freedomware 

message: Doesn't free software just mean "free of charge"? That's what I've thought for the last 10 years or so, but increasingly I'm coming across the redefinition of free software demonstrated by this page, where free software is defined to mean something else which seems more to do with ideaology than software.
To be a complete/useful article it really should cover both the intuitive meaning and the one about "freedom" that needs a whole article to explaing it! :-)
For me and most people I talk to, whether IT experts or not, free software is stuff like Adobe Reader that is free to download. Hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this, but this is the way language works, historical meanings aren't always the exclusive ones, and no one "owns" or "controls" language to say, "no, free software can only mean the thing we want it to".
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.169.63 (talk) 08:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue is covered in freeware, Gratis versus Libre and other articles linked from this one. But please feel free to improve the article, if you have referenced and verifiable material clarifying the distinction. Technobadger (talk) 09:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree with 222.152.169.63; the non-programming, general-public, software consumer has a different definition of "free software" than the one described in this article. Referring to the four freedoms listed here, it is any software with at least half of freedom 0 (the freedom-to-run half, not the for-any-purpose half), such as browser games that are free to play but cannot be copied for friends and have protected source code. Since WP is for a general audience, this definition should at least be included or disambiguated. -- Another Stickler (talk) 15:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  This was resolved over a week ago. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That "resolves" nothing. It still suggests that software that is free is not the same as "free software". That's only true in a small, select group of nerds and not to the wider world (a bit like how ten nerds say that malicious breakers-in are not "hackers" but "crackers", despite all etymological evidence; see Wiktionary). 86.131.89.40 (talk) 03:00, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Free software that is free is not the same as free software, as stated by this article and many other sources of information. The small select group of nerds is a fallacy. There are many other people in the world who understand the difference, and there is a bigger number of people who know there is a difference. Perhaps when free software was less mainstream, this was true, but not anymore. Alpv (talk) 05:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  free software = free of charge 

message: Is it worth considering adding some discussion about the political and ethical aspects of free software? I've observed resistance when it has been compared to Fair Trade, while in many ways the organisation of the development teams reflects anarcho-syndicalist approaches. This is not reflected in the article.
RichardRothwell (talk) 21:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political and ethical issues 

message: I would like to replace Ubuntu (which ships proprietary software on its install mediums) with Debian GNU/Linux as an (better) example of free software. If there are any objections, please state them here. Thank you. --Paxcoder (talk) 15:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made the changes. If this is the first time you're seeing this, please refrain from reverting until you discuss your reasons here. --Paxcoder (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither Ubuntu nor Debian consist of entirely free software as defined by the FSF; this is why the FSF doesn't list either of them on this page and why the gNewSense project was started. See here and here for more info. 207.65.109.10 (talk) 15:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Debian is in transition to remove the last bit of non-free software from the distro (firmware for graphics cards) - the blobs are a part of the kernel, and are now being manually taken out. This has happened with unstable version, but has yet to come to testing and stable. Until it does, feel free to include Gnewsense in its stead in this article [I think I didn't know the above at the time I put Debian instead of Ubuntu]. Noteworthy however is that FSF doesn't consider this to be Debian project's primary "sin", rather - it is the fact that they *host* (other) non-free software in special repositories (hardly a matter that makes a distro non-free). But unlike Ubuntu, they don't ship it on their mediums. Instead, it must be manually included in sources to pull software from. --Paxcoder (talk) 21:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

text: I agree with your argument, however, since Ubuntu is a very recognizable name, it should still be there (perhaps as an example with mostly free software). Alpv (talk) 05:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I don't know. Debian isn't that obscure either though. --Paxcoder (talk) 23:24, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggestion

message: "In 1980 copyright law was extended to computer programs."
in which countries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.152.167 (talk) 17:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: well. In USA. It was a first country in the world to extend copyright to computer programs. In other countries programs was copyrighted during 1980s-1990s. For example around 1986 in West Germany, 1988 - in Britain, 1992 - in Russia. Lqp (talk) 17:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's not true at all. In the UK, for example, computer games were sold under copyright in the early 1980s (and probably before that!); otherwise anyone could have copied them! 86.131.89.40 (talk) 03:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't know anything about UK copyright law, but it's conceivable (even likely) that video games were protected by copyright on account of their other creative content--sprites, images and sounds, etc. In the US, Apple v. Franklin was one of the first cases to establish code as itself being copyrightable. There's a fine but important difference. S. Ugarte (talk) 02:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright changes

message: The placement of the FSF/FLOSS definition of "free software" under this heading, with no indication that other definitions exist is in direct conflict with encyclopedic standards, wikipedia's explicit standards, and common practice on wikipedia.
The fact is that by far the most common usage of the phrase "free software" and the adjective "free" as applied to software is in reference to being authorized to download and/or use software without paying. A simple search on any search engine overwhelmingly supports this fact.
If applicable standards and rules are to be applied here, this article should be titled something like "Free Software (FLOSS)" and a new page with a concise clarification and references to several definitions should be placed under the title "Free Software."
The fact that free software as in software at no cost is documented elsewhere is really not the issue here. The point is about what wikipedia reports when one says "hey, what is free software?" and currently the response is unbalanced and POV in favor of the FLOSS definition. 76.64.151.235 (talk) 00:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That freeware may also be known as "free software" is true, but the Manual of Style is pretty clear on the idea that articles should be based on one subject, that article titles are not "official" in any way and that hatnotes should be used to disambiguate rather than attempting to write articles by picking phrases and filling the pages linked to such with detail on every topic that might be covered. I've added a hatnote to differentiate the article from freeware. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, that's a start. Though, the FLOSS definition remains over-represented, given that common practice in society, and therefore the standing primary definition, is other than what this article documents. Also, the natural combination of "free" as in price and "software" refers to more than "freeware." Conventionally, freeware refers to software where the copyright holder imposes no restrictions on use or distribution of the software, and where the software isn't a handicapped version of some paid software. Freeware sometimes includes source code, people now sometimes refer to that as OSS and/or FLOSS. Also, there's shareware, trialware, adware, nagware, spyware, software that is freeware but is somehow tied to some paid service, and of course, "free software downloads" which is a deceptive phrase that's becoming increasingly common, used in reference to the fact that a fee isn't charged for downloading shareware. So anyway, non-FLOSS use of the phrase "free software" is extensive and complicated, far exceeding FLOSS usage, far pre-dating FLOSS usage, and by encyclopedic and wikipedia standards, it really warrants more significant placement and coverage than the FLOSS definition. 70.50.179.78 (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Historically "free software" has only referred to libre software. It is an unfortunate fact that despite having over a billion words, English overloads words with multiple meanings, that serve only to confuse. In this instance, people forget that free originally referred to libre, and gratis was only an afterthought. Need I also point out that most FLOSS is available gratis? jonathon (talk) 17:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  The opposite of everything you said is true. Software existed, was sometimes sold at a cost, or alternatively was sometimes given away for free, and described as "free," extensively, long before Richard Stallman conceived of GNU and decided to make "free software" a slogan. Consider, for example, that GNU was a revolt against existing operating systems of the day that were partially free as in price, but for which source code wasn't made available. In fact, the concept of saying "free" as in "freedom" is a revolt against people calling software "free" when, without the source code, severe limitations existed. Also, all FLOSS is required to be made available at no cost, and if it's sold on printed materials, the price has to be minimal. You might want to read the GPL and study the history of GNU, you seem to have some serious misconceptions. 70.50.179.78 (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Prior to circa 1975, software and hardware were always bundled together. Source code was included, because it was always customized for the specific organization that purchased the hardware. Between 1975, and 1980, software houses for mainframes, and midframes were viable businesses, _if_ they did not have to supply source code. With the initial micro-computers, the commercial vendors uniformly decided not to provide source code. By 1983,it was clear that customizing source code would no longer be a vendor provided option ---even if the purchasing organization was willing to pay for it. Nobody, but nobody described software as "free" prior to 1980. It wasn't until the rise of shareware, that the term "free" was first used to describe software that was distributed gratis. BTW, the operating systems back then were anything but gratis. UCSD had a major problem with the IRS, because it earned so much money for licenses for P-System.(For all practical purposes,the IRS bears sole responsibility in the demise of P-System. Had it not inflicted its desire to destroy all and sundry, computing today would be vastly different.)jonathon (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Prior to circa 1975, software and hardware were always bundled together. - It sounds like you're talking about operating systems, and even then, your claim is false. PDP and other architectures were generally based on operating systems that would now be referred to as open source, there were numerous choices available for a machine's operating system, and large "hacker" communities existed that edited and shared operating system modifications and addons, normally in binary form, but often with source code available. Charging money for software was already a well established practice, but a lot of software was available for free, and described as such. People had no reason to work around normal use of the word "free," as the "free software movement" didn't exist at that time. So your claims Nobody, but nobody described software as "free" prior to 1980. It wasn't until the rise of shareware, that the term "free" was first used to describe software that was distributed gratis. are simply false. Also, you said BTW, the operating systems back then were anything but gratis. Initially, most operating systems and addons were available for free, but yes, paid alternatives eventually came along, which is why I said that operating systems were partially free, meaning some were, some weren't, some combinations involved components that had a cost, and components that didn't. 70.50.135.89 (talk) 23:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  DEC's PDP systems were not generally based on libre or gratis operating systems in those days. PDP-10s typically ran TENEX or TOPS-10, and 11s usually ran RSTS, RSX-11, or RT-11, although some ran AT&T Unix. Outside the DEC ecosphere, the choices were even fewer, because most university Computer Science programs were DEC sites, and only a few non-academic sites created their own OSes - GECOS and GM-NAA I/O were already history by 1975. There were so few operating systems that were not supplied by the equipment manufacturer or other for-a-fee providers that we not only didn't call them "free" (as in gratis or libre), we just called them by name. RossPatterson (talk) 01:34, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your assertion conflicts with jonathon's assertion that early era operating systems were both free as in price and as in having available source code which could be modified and used freely. Anyway, you seem to assert that at that time (well before Richard Stallman coined the FLOSS term "free software"), some software had a monetary price, and some software didn't. So are you saying that people never discussed software prices? or that people did, but for some reason they never used the word "free" to describe software that was available for free? 70.50.135.89 (talk) 02:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ross' assertion doesn't conflict with mine. My assertion is that hardware and software were a single line item. Sometime around 1970,hardware and software became separate line items. Nonetheless they were still bundled together when one purchased a system. (I'll also point out that there was a market in both used hardware,and software. PHB's debating whether to spend US%500,00 for a used system, and then how much the reprogramming would cost, as compared to the US$1,000,000 that a new system would cost, that included the required reprogramming. Software costs were discussed in terms of dollars per line. jonathon (talk) 03:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  So are you saying that for software that wouldn't cost anything, for instance because it had already been purchased, or it didn't need to be purchased, or some other reason, the word "free" was never used? for instance, nobody would ever say something like "that company offers free software, the other choice is to pay a fortune" ? 70.50.135.89 (talk) 03:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your options were "bundle a", "bundle b", or if one was lucky, a used software package for your hardware that might cost less than either "option a" or "option b". Your option was choosing how much of a fortune one would pay. A used package for US$500,00, was either an absolute steal, or a great bargain. jonathon (talk) 05:11, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  There was plenty of free software in various forms. For instance,  is an article written by Richard Stallman. I think he somewhat idealizes the scene of the time, minimizing the fact that much source was withheld and that money was charged in many cases, but the article describes the "hacker" community that shared and used a lot of software at no cost. 70.50.135.89 (talk) 05:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

text:  Also, I'd like to point out that you clearly acknowledge that operating systems went from being available at no cost to often being paid for, prior to conception of "free software" as a FLOSS term, so how do you think that people referred to operating systems that didn't have a monetary cost, if not to say that they were free? 70.50.135.89 (talk) 23:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Do you understand what the phrase  anything but gratis means? Your comment implies otherwise.jonathon (talk) 02:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  You said "Prior to circa 1975, software and hardware were always bundled together. Source code was included". So by implication, prior to Richard Stallman's establishment of his "free software" doctrine in 1983 (timeline according to this article's current form), both for-free and for-money software had been available. My point is that in that pre-GNU climate, descriptive language was frequently used, quite necessarily, to refer to the cost of software. Do you really think people never used the word "free" to refer to the options that didn't cost money? 70.50.135.89 (talk) 03:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

text:  Bundled means sold as one package. That package included the cost of the programming. With software being billed at on the number of lines in the source code, suggesting that a salesperson would call it free is utterly absurd. When software became a separate line item, vendors started to exclude source code with the application. (More precisely, they limited the distribution of the source code.)jonathon (talk) 04:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Whether or not the source code was available is moot, the point is that there was a lot of software at no cost, and a lot of paid software, long before GNU was conceived. That point seems to have been conceded, the only question is whether people used the adjective "free" to describe software that could be used without paying. I think it should be obvious that it's natural and default use of the english language, just as the ever growing contemporary non-FLOSS use of the term isn't some snowball effect, it's largely a matter of unrelated parties simply using common descriptive language in relation to the subject of the monetary cost of software. In fact, the word "free" is used constantly in business. Free drinks. Free popcorn. Free cd changer. Free dvd rentals. To suggest that, in a climate where a multitude of software choices were available, some representing added cost, and some not, people wouldn't be using the adjective "free" in the sense of cost, is just silly and unrealistic. Also, as I said, a lot of very early software was completely free in all senses, there were extensive "hacker" communities, and there were both paid and for-free operating systems. 70.50.135.89 (talk) 04:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

text:  Stallman's concern has always been about source code availability, and the ability to share modifications of source code with other users. The free always referred to sharing source code modifications to those who had a license to use the software. jonathon (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I never claimed that RMS's intended meaning has changed, I said that other usages existed before RMS started using the slogan, and that they always have been and still are far more widely used than his. 70.50.135.89 (talk) 23:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

text:  There is no requiriment that FLOSS be distributed gratis, or even at cost. That misconception comes from a failure on the part of people to comprehend the difference between source code and binary distribution, when reading the GNU GPL. (Source code has to be distributed at, or below the cost of the materials that it is provided in.) There is no prohibition in any FLOSS license in selling binaries at any price --- indeed the inclusion of such a clause would violate the four fundamental freedoms. This, is why it is perfectly legal to sell Debian Linux for US$1,000,000 if one can find somebody who is idiotic enough to do so. (Several years ago, an e-Bay vendor --- who may still be in business there --- listed OOo for US$5,000, and reported that they did have a single sale at that price.) jonathon (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Correction, there is a requirement for FLOSS to be available at no cost, in the sense that a copyright holder can not demand a fee before the source code is made available and/or before the user is permitted to use and distribute the software. You can accept voluntary payment for something you're also offering for free, but you do have to offer it for free as well, in the case of FLOSS. So what I said (all FLOSS is required to be made available at no cost) is accurate. 70.50.135.89 (talk) 23:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is nothing in the GNU GPL, or any other FLOSS license that requires the binary to be distributed gratis, or for no more than the cost of the media it is distributed on. All the GNU GPL prohibits, is charging more for the source code than the cost of the media that it is distributed on. There is nothing prohibiting a vendor from selling the binary for US$50^10,and requiring an additional fee, that is not more than the cost of the media, for the source code. The major reason vendors don't follow that practice, is because ten seconds after the first person shells out the money, the second person will be legally downloading it from The Pirate Bay. jonathon (talk) 02:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  It has to be possible for the user to acquire the binaries at no cost. That is, it has to be possible for the user to compile identical binaries. 70.50.135.89 (talk) 03:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Has to be? Not according to the GNU GPL, or any other license. If no one wants to distribute source code for gratis, and no one want to distribute compiled binaries for gratis, then gratis distribution won't occur.jonathon (talk) 04:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're mistaken, the GPL asserts that if you distribute binaries, you also have to ensure that the source code is available, and that is the major difference between FLOSS and OSS, according to RMS and the FSF. 70.50.135.89 (talk) 04:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

text:  Heck, for years the FSF itself sold free software - in fact, it was the easiest way to get Emacs, Bison, and a few others in the mid-1980s. RossPatterson (talk) 22:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

text:  I'd suggest that you reread the GNU GPL for the first time, before you make more statements that are demonstrably false, and display your ignorance about that which you purport to know something about. jonathon (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  bias in support of FLOSS definition 

message: The current opening paragraph states "Free software or software libre is software that can be used, studied, and modified without restriction, and which can be copied and redistributed in modified or unmodified form either without restriction, or with minimal restrictions only to ensure that further recipients can also do these things" - but GPLv3 also has additional restrictions vis-a-vis hardware in the TiVoisation clause. I suggest this is rephrased to be clearer -93.96.212.203 (talk) 23:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  the GPL was never - and never will be free —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.204.139 (talk) 02:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current opening sentence means GPLv3 isn't "free software" 

message: Citation: "The antonym of free software is proprietary software..." The current wording of the Proprietary software article does not support this statement. Any idea what can be done about it?
Peta 77.104.243.33 (talk) 14:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Proprietary software]] article compatibility

message: I feel that "free" is ambiguous, so I would prefer "freely licensed" in the category name instead. Taemyr (talk) 23:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm... No? This is its name, you're gonna have to deal with it :-P --Paxcoder (talk) 17:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Hi Taemyr. Not all free software is licensed. Software whose source code is in the public domain is free software and has no licence. So the change you suggest would make Wikipedia inaccurate. In Wikipedia, the defintion of "free" for software is addressed by having a full description in the free software article. --Gronky (talk) 23:18, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming Category 

message: An anon editor (87.196.223.9) deleted the paragraph explaining the difference between freeware and free software from the lead. I've restored the paragraph since the distinction is further explained and referenced in the body of the article. Per WP:LEADCITE, if there is consensus to add a citation to that statement in the lead, then we should do so. --Hamitr (talk) 14:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  distinction between Freeware and Free Software in lead 

message: The intro contains the text "and to prevent consumer-facing hardware manufacturers from preventing user modifications to their hardware." I find this text confusing and I've been in the industry for over 20 years. Can someone please either remove this text or clarify what it's talking about?
Let me assume that we're talking about RMS's original concern: the MIT printer whose driver he could not extend (though this could also be read to refer to the recent locked-in platform issues surrounding, e.g., TiVo or the binary-only driver modules for Linux). In that case, it was not modifications to hardware that were being prevented at all. It was, in fact, modifications to software that shipped with the hardware. Either way, I think it's too complex a side-topic to introduce in the first paragraph, as it requires significant understanding of the issues involved. -Miskaton (talk) 14:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preventing hardware modifications 

message: Although anonymous users do oftentimes validly contribute to this article, most of IP-identified users' edits are vandalism, and it is dominating the history page (eg. most recent is only yesterday). So, perhaps we should consider protecting the page with semi protection. I'm sure you don't like the sound of it (I don't either), but the fact is it would solve our problems. And it could be removed after the guy(s?) editing it grow up. Speak your mind. --Paxcoder (talk) 13:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent vandalism 

message: I think this article should mention that Free software (as in freedom) projects have many problems generating revenue and that "Free software" development is in most cases not profitable by itself... SF007 (talk) 14:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. --Paxcoder (talk) 20:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it's pretty covered. The only thing is that it isn't explicitly said it's hard to make money, but it does say the proprietary model (ie selling licenses) isn't compatible. You're free to edit though. --Paxcoder (talk) 13:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I know, the problem is that I don't really know how to put that... SF007 (talk) 17:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You asked for a reply, but I don't know. --Paxcoder (talk) 11:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Red Hat has done quite well in recent years, so it can be done. There are many viable businesses built around free software. If they are not making as much profit as certain non-free software companies, the reasons are not necessarily that building a company around libre software is inherently not profitable. - K (talk) 15:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commercial viability 

message: I can't fathom why, but I can't seem to get "free software" to be a link. Here's my edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Free_software&diff=301587724&oldid=300835716
Please fix, and delete this comment/section. Thanks,   - JasonWoof (talk) 20:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Self links simply appear in bold, instead of as a link. I removed the non-working link for now, as I'm not sure how to fulfill your original intent. If you post back here, I'm sure we can help. Pslide (talk) 21:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  help fix my link 

message: The Naming section is a statement of the FSF's opinion about open source software. They assert that a) the term refers only to technical means of software development and b) that it was a term disseminated by a marketing campaign. I won't argue either point (not even sure which side I'd be on), but rather point out that they have been widely argued in the past, and while the FSF is welcome to that opinion, it should be noted here that it is such. -Miskaton (talk) 19:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Eric S. Raymond, (B) is a fact (see movie: Revolution OS). (A) is arguable, but mentioned as something stated in FSF's document, and not a fact. So, I see no reason for dispute. --Paxcoder (talk) 20:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding qualifier to Naming 

message: Can someone quickly explain where do people who write software for free get other services free, like plumbing, food, housing etc? I'm for having the code open source but can someone explain how is free software not a race to the bottom, a self-centric pursuit ultimately at expense of others (people starting to assume software is worth nothing). There may be short term benefits for greedy corporations but we are talking about devaluing work here and the amount of intelligent people wanting to slave away for dimes ... well were those people very intelligent in the first place or did they have ulterior motive such as retaliation against company x for being so damned rich and evil in their business practises? x=most large business, having taken advantage of legal loopholes that might be legal but ethically questionable to advance their position in the market.
If the idea is to get paid for support, is there not a conflict of interest to write the free software (with paid support) in a way that makes having support incidents more likely?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.172.94 (talk) 19:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Free plumbing ? 

message: I linked 'almost' in the image caption to the FSF's page on why they don't endorse the common GNU/Linux distros (here are the ones they do endorse) for the specific purpose of clarifying why 'almost' was used there, instead of wrongly claiming that Debian is entirely free (because, contrary to the belief of many Debian-fans, it isn't.) Cogburnd02 (talk) 16:30, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  'almost' link to FSF's 'Explaining Why We Don't Endorse Other Systems' 

message: The lead section defines "free software" as having few restrictions and seems to indicate that free software "is" or "isn't". The problem is that that isn't true at all. There are degrees and different types of freedoms. Software that allows for all use except by nuclear power plant's isn't free according to the stated definition - while the GPL /is/ free according to the definition - even though the latter is far more restrictive. IMHO this article needs significant rewriting to show that software can be "more free" or "less free" and that things are not "either free or non-free"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voomoo (talk • contribs) 00:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section is misleading