Talk:The Holocaust/Archive 6

message: I disagree with a line about Jews "popularizing" it to further their cause. I have attached a POV boilerplate text to the article.
:: Looking at the context, I think the term was used by someone whose first language is not English in the sense of "make well known". I've corrected the text. In future, rather than slap on a POV message, why not just edit the article to deal with the item you are objecting to? NPOV warnings should not be the first resort. AndyL 02:17, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: Please whoever reads this, have a look at the edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Holocaust&diff=19649128&oldid=19648664
and post your view on the question, which version is more suitable. 
Str1977 22:55, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: To whom it may concern

message: The complete lack of any explanation as to how the Nazis  became  empowered is  obfuscated by the above dubious  row and  by the  complete ignoral of the Reichskonkordat quid pro quo that empowered them . I dispute this whole article  and call for  editors to rectify the  lack  of clarity for the origins of the holocaust . They should   revert  the one revealing     reference  I placed , before they  do their duty to the  murdered  by relating the  balanced history  where it should be -on this article , and showing up as a contrib ution to this holocaust  stain  upon  our  bleak world history  . I  also object to the revisionism analysis  for sparate reasons- I consider the analysis  of revisionism to be  itself a serious case of  dangerous revisionism . I am not POV or MPOV , I'm out-raged  at this vacillation and weakness , and  error . The  least that must happen is that the  conclusions  of the Reichskonkordat  be averred here- and note that I have nothing whatever  to do with the history of the Reichskonkordat  ,which clears me of the  smears  and innuendo .  Do it someone or I will have to myself .Famekeeper 02:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to put more background into the article, go ahead.  These articles may help in your research: Eugenics, Racial hygiene, Eugen Fischer, Werner Heyde, Ernst Kretschmer, J. F. Lehmann, Friedrich Mauz, Friedrich Panse, Alfred Ploetz, Paul Rostock, Ernst Rüdin, Carl Hans Heinze Sennhenn, Werner Villinger, Bethel Institution, Racial policy of Nazi Germany, T-4 Euthanasia Program, Compulsory sterilization, Nazi, Nazism, Third Reich --AI 03:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

text: I think those articles need some peer review and severe authentication of references, etc. I am not in a position to do this, for one reason I am a significant contributor to those articles. What is this about FK (you?) and your mentions of a "block". Send a message to my talk page. --AI 19:48, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Entire Holocaust Article Is Dubious

message: Just wanted to explain the edits I have made over the last couple days (in addition to the maps and pictures added).  There were two large problems I saw with the article: first, it did not actually explain how the Holocaust was carried out -- as much space was devoted to the subject of badges as to concentration camps AND extermination camps combined, dates were unclear, the Ghettos and Einsatzgruppen were barely mentioned, etc -- which I think may have led to some of the questions on this page about how so many millions were killed.  The second issue was the end of the article, which contained some vague words about the fact that the Holocaust helped start the Arab-Israeli conflict thanks to new immigrants to Israel, and that there were also other terrible things that happened during WW II -- nothing about Nuremberg, Displaced Persons, world reaction, or anything else.
I tried to address the first problem by putting in the chronology and details of the industrialized mass-murder of the Holocaust, including, roughly, the phases during which various types of killing methods were used by the Nazis.  I tried to address the second by rewriting a bit, but it still requires more work.  I would also suggest that we do a little more clean-up.  Specifically, I think the badge section should be reduced to merely a link - we have so little room, and we haven't even touched major issues (liberation of the camps, the Catholic Church, reperations, etc.).  Second, I think we should organize the collaborators section a bit more to explain what happened in each country, right now it is randomly organized, it seems.  Finally, we need to expand the aftermath section - how did various countries deal with the issues of collaboration? What was the political reaction after the war? Thoughts are appreciated.
--Goodoldpolonius2 04:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: My edits

message: DO NOT revert Famekeeper's addition of dubious tags.  Discuss them here instead of just removing them. See Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute. --AI 23:50, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting dubious tags 

message: Purely in reference to the discussions on this page  about Jews as targets of the  Holocaust , my threepenny worth thinking  is this . 
That the anti-semitic nature of Hitler goes back to being over-shadowed by a Jewish school-fellow who was or wasn't  Wittgenstein , and this  was re-inforced by the widespread cultural anti-semitism of central Europe  filtering through into his petty bourgeois  childhood . Hitler's very success in formulating a usefulness  for this anti-semitism  holds the attention after the  shock of the actual mass-murder  is felt  . 
I tend towards the opinion that the Polish  subject of murder , is  not to be accorded this prominence or description simply because it did not  have the same  philosophical basis .
I think the lesson of the history for the present is related to the pseudo- reasoning  of anti-semitism , as the basis for it lies  in conjunction with the christian  revulsion at that church  which  christianity derived from  .  In this respect Polish or other national questions , but especially Polish - muddy the waters by needing  cognizance  of  the contemporary  Polish national anti-semitic political tendency . 
The relevance of all debate to our learning from history  is in order not to be condemned  into  its' repetition . I see the philosophical or  legalistic Hitlerian  anti-semitism  through a  contemporary prism: the question arising  is  the same question / law/ permissal/  as that which justifies  Islamic  counter-terror . Perish the Jew was the constant refrain in 1932 .
The legal  roots of christian anti-semitism  are found in the Biblical references to  the passing of sins unto succeeding generations , and the Islamic  roots come from the  exception  after the general murder proscription , for those who spread  evil/wrong/calumny/apostasy/etc in the land . This seems  a reflection of the Judaic  .As everyone  who has read it knows , the  Qoran , almost by chapter relates to the  biblical , with  many/every chapters' ending in threat  at anyone who suggests it is simply such a repetition  . I  do not suggest this is the entire  of the Qoran  , indeed I have not read it since   the Rushdie  insults created his 'affair' ( The relevance of Rushdie lies in his attack on the veracity of the very words in these chapters  ,plus the female insult towards the many wives of the  prophet . )  
War is one thing - action  instills re-action of force . But philosophical  conceptions  , such as pollute the minds of man ( to whomsoever  so claims ) -  anti-semitism , anti-christianity  as here  described - become cardinal to an explanation . Hitler did not operate in a vacuum , but  tapped the philosophical  undercurrent  for strength .  Equally the 'exception'  of  the Qoran  makes of nearly everyone but the adherent  , a justifiable  culpable target  , a non-innocent similar  to the non-innocnce of the born Jew  to the christian  militant .
For the Holocaust  article to avoid the scrupulous explanation of  the 'currents'  both popular and  Hitlerian , is humanly un-useful . For the world to forget  where it all comes from , or to forget the subjugation of the  mass-mind  conscience in Europe  so attained  , is to misunderstand the philosophical  hurdles we presently face  . 
The editor  rising hereabove  is highly useful , as he requires considerable effort in rebuttal and this leads to evidence . At all times he seeks however to prevent any such  historical linkage  as that to which I philosophically refer - hence his reverts here .   He has been particularly useful in relation to an analysis of  "christian law" - which relates to the collaboration (or, he states ,otherwise) of  christians  , but especially  very powerful christians  -towards the  evident Hitlerian  centrality  accorded , throughout , to the   Jews . Famekeeper 10:55, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Relevance of Jews as Targets