Talk:Al Lewis (actor)

message: Seems like he should be here if he graudated, although the famous alumin list is short on entertainers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Columbia_University_people Gibbative 15:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Try under his birth name and his showbiz name. I do think that had his claims of a Columbia degree been bogus, someone would have called foul during his gubernatorial run.  Political races tend to put claims like that under the microsocope even for minor-party candidates. Crunch 16:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone did call foul. — Walloon 20:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I phoned Columbia University today, both the Alumni Relations Office and the Registrar's Office. Both offices informed me that all degree and enrollment verifications are done through the National Student Clearinghouse, a private organization housed online at degreeverify.com. They charge for this service. I'm curious to determine if Al Lewis, Albert Meister, or Alexander Meister earned a degree from Columbia but I don't want to pay for this information.  I told the Registrar's Office that I was a journalist inquiring about the validity of the late-actor's death (well at least the second part of the sentence is true), but was still referred to degreeverify.com  Crunch 18:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If he has a doctorate in education from Columbia University, he had to write a doctoral dissertation. ProQuest digital dissertations is an online database of almost all American dissertations accepted at an accredited institution since 1861. This database is accessible at any academic library, and many public libraries. Look for a dissertation at Columbia University by Albert Meister. — Walloon 19:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good idea. I just did the search for author=Meister school=Columbia. No match.  Although my librarian told me the results aren't 100% accurate because not all dissertations and theses make it in (though just for kicks I checked my own and it was there).  Anyway, the results for author=Lewis school=Columbia are, of course, a bit longer because you can't, or I don't know how, to limit the placement of Lewis to just the last name. I'll see what I can find.  My guess is that if he did not earn the degree, he may have taken some courses and maybe went on to make some donations to Columbia which is why the univeristy has turned a blind eye to his public declarations of a Ph.D.  Universities do that all the time. Crunch 20:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Update -- I can't find any "Meister" with the first name Al, Albert, or Alexander or any Lewis with those first names who earned a Ph.D. from Columbia in the early 1940s and has the dissertation listed at ProQuest.  It might still be worth checking with degreeverify.com as Columbia recommended to see what that reveals, but I don't want to pay for it. Crunch 20:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: From the vantage point of 88, it probably seems a lot younger. It's a matter of perspective. Crunch 04:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No sign of Al Lewis on Wikipedia Columbia University Alumni page 

message: Thanks Al.  You will be missed NTK 21:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RIP 

message: There is a person in the U.S. census taken on April 1, 1930, who fits a 1910 birth. Albert Meister, age 19 (hence, born between April 2, 1910 and April 1, 1911) was living with his widowed mother Elma Meister and two sisters in Ozone Park, Queens, New York. His occupation was "checker, stock exchange". He was born in the state of New York. (Queens Co., New York, enumeration district 483, p. 9-A, family 120.) I also find him in the U.S. census taken on January 1, 1920. Albert Meister, age 9 (hence, born in 1910) was living with his parents John and Elma Meister and his sisters in Brooklyn, New York. John's occupation was "carpenter". (Kings Co., New York, enumeration district 1420, p. 13-A, family 263.)  — Walloon 21:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems like it would be the right record. I don't think things are heavily leaning in favor of him being born in 1910; in the interview/news story that's in the external links, it mentions how he once lied on a voter registration card, putting his age as 75 (it was really 88) because of age discrimination in the showbiz industry. I'm not sure how true that is or not, but it could certainly account for the (1923-1910=13) confusion over his birth date. 71.10.26.170 05:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I think this is the fellow (based on his birthdate) is recorded in the death index as having passed in 2002, hence not Al Lewis. Xoloz 16:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't be so sure about that. The individual who died in 2002 was born in 1911, not 1910 (I do realize that early 1911 is within the time frame set by Walloon above, but there doesn't seem to be any argument over the fact that he was born on April 30th, whether it was actually 1910 or 1923, so the 2002 guy doesn't fit). Also, the guy that died in 2002 was born in Hamburg, NY, which is clear across the state over by Lake Erie. Plus, Walloon's info above fits with the little we know about his childhood - namely that heis mother was windowed when he was a child. 71.10.26.170 19:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing working against that person being Al Lewis is that in both 1920 and 1930, Albert Meister's mother Elma is listed as having been born in the state of New York, as were her parents. Al Lewis said his mother was born in Polish Russia and immigrated at age 16. — Walloon 00:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Unless he truly was a vampire, then it could still be him.  And being Al, reports of his deaths would be greatly exaggerated.  :)  --Coyoty 17:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1930 census

message: What year was Karen Ingenthron born? I am trying to find out the age difference.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard_Arthur_Norton_(1958-_) (talk • contribs) 03:44, 2006 February 6 (UTC)
:ussearch.com lists only one Karen Ingenthron living in New York City.  Her age as of 2/6/06 is 60 years. Crunch 11:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent work! I should have thought of that myself and used myfamily.com. I guess WBAI is still using a publicity photo of when she was 40 years old. I guess vanity is contagious.  Unless I have the wrong photograph. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Age of wife 

message: In time social security will release his correct birth date, and sites like smokinggun will post his death certificate with his social security number. There were many bad Ency. Britannica records that I found in error and wrote to them. They changed one online already: Buster Crabbe. You cant hide from Social Security, you have to send them a copy of your birth certificate or an equivalent.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 04:48, 2006 February 6 (UTC)
:Who are you? Please sign your posts. Crunch 12:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps your friends have been deceptive with you about their real age, or the person that gave the tombstone cutter the date was wrong. For Social Security you have to present them with a copy of a birth certificate. It is possible to have a clerical error in their database, but short of seeing a birth certificate, they are the authority. Some people don't have birth certificates, they were born at home in a rural area or born abroad, or the paper was lost in the San Francisco earthquake. For older people you first sign up for social security you fill out a form and supply your name and birthdate and your parent's name. Now when you fill in a form for a SS number you have to mail in a copy of the birth certificate, or bring it in to the SS office. You can send away for a copy of the application for anyone that is dead for around $30, it used to be $7. When it comes time to collect, or get a new card, you have to send them in your birth certificate. Tombstones rely on the next of kin to supply the date, just like in a death certificate, and the reliability depends on how knowledgeable the person they ask is. My guess is that Grandpa Al's death certificate will not contain his parent's names or a reliable birthday. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 16:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Why do you say that?  If he just started stating his age as younger occassionally later in life and his son perpetuated that to the media on Saturday, there's a big leap to having a false birth certificate and false social security record. Crunch 00:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Richard Arthur Norton is making no such claim. He is in fact saying the opposite: that the birth certificate and the Social Security records are much more likely to be accurate about a person's date of birth than a death certificate or tombstone. — Walloon 04:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Official - Social Security Death Index
* Name: Al Lewis
* SSN #: 050-18-4924
* Last Residence: 10044 New York, New York, New York
* Born: 30 Apr 1923
* Died: 3 Feb 2006
* State and Year SSN issued: New York, Before 1951
dcosten 06:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: DONE then, he was born in 1923!  SS rarely gets this kind of thing wrong.  67.176.101.205 (talk) 23:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social Security and Death Certificate 

message: Al Lewis is listed under :Category:NBA executives, yet there's no mention of this in the article.  Surely this is worth mentioning?--KrossTalk 09:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As with his age and his Columbia affiliation, I think the truth will filter out in the end.  I think according to one of the referenced articles the included an interview with Lewis. he said he was an informal scout at high school games in the New York area. Crunch 11:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NBA exec 

message: The information in here is already being quoted by others. Make sure every fact has a link to a newssource and that every fact that he uttered is quoted as "he said" or "he claimed", rather than "he was". Findagrave is already using our info as fact and passing on his apocryphal stories.
--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 17:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Likewise,  be careful about your use of the word apocraphal [sic].  Some of these stories told by Lewis and reported in interviews or past news stories are unverified. Some are completely verified.  Crunch 17:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, which ones are "completely verified" and what are the sources? (see below). I think we are perpetuating many of the myths. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 21:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Be cautious and skeptical in what you write 

message: please list below what is verified and what is not. Remember even if it appears in the New York Times, its still unverified until a primary source is quoted such as: Columbia University, The NBA, or a Birth Certificate, or we nail him down in the US Census.
===Verified===
*Television roles and dates 
*WBIA job and dates
*Date of death
*Marriages
*Number of votes received in New York election
===Unverified===
*birth name
*date of birth
*place of birth
===Unknown===
*parent's names
*siblings
*children's names other than Ted Lewis
This seems useful but only if we list the verified sources for the information. Otherwise we're just repeating the mistakes of the past. Crunch 20:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verified unverified 

message: *parent's names
*siblings
*children's names other than Ted Lewis
This seems useful but only if we list the verified sources for the information. Otherwise we're just repeating the mistakes of the past. Crunch 20:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unknown

message: Why did we go back to saying he worked on Sacco and Scottsboro? I am going to change the wording again if I don't hear any objections. He would have been 7 years old in 1930, if the 1923 birth date is correct. And why do we need sentences explaining who Sacco and the Scottsboro boys were, when they are already linked to full explanations. In a small biography such as this discussion of these two topics seems out of place. What do you think? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 23:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you looking for objections?  Well, I object. I don't think the 1923 birth date is at all confirmed. Crunch 04:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

text: My objection has nothing to do with 1923 or 1910. He was a teller of tall tales and all stories told by him need to be referenced as "he said", rather than writing it as a biographical fact. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 06:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  One step ahead, two backward 

message: The questionable accuracy of his age should be highlighted.  This brings more contributors to the talk page, and prevents misunderstandings by less careful readers, who might take 1910 as authorative.  Disputed tag should stay until definite Social Security record becomes available, and dispute is resolved. Xoloz 16:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The tag says "The factual accuracy of this article is disputed." The article isn't disputed, just his age and that controversy is covered extensively and referenced properly in the article. If you want to be consistent you better add a tag to every living celebrity covered in age disputes until they die, I count 60 or more there. Better get to work! --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 06:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, though, we're just making ourselves look bad with this tag. As some people have noted, reliable media sources are using info from Wikipedia, and this tag will discourage them from doing so. I think, under the circumstances, we have done a sterling job with this article and presenting the facts - and there is is stress on this through the article - as they may or may not be. Right now, a birth certificate or public record is not available to us, but we have certainly done a competent job regardless. RA Norton is right, and I think this article is as accurate as can possibly be. I'll remove the tag, but I suspect you're going restore it.... Oh, and you said "less careful readers, who might take 1910 as authorative". Well, there's absolutely nothing in the article that mentions 1910 without mentioning 1923 in the same sentence. A reader would have to be a real dumbo not see that there is no definitive date, and I don't think Wikipedia should be written for the lowest-common denominator. Every questionable piece of info starts with "he said" or "he claimed". JackO'Lantern 08:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe reliable media sources shouldn't use this information until the facts are straightened out, or at least stabilized.  --Coyoty 21:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why shouldn't they? As I said, the info we have right now is as accurate as can possibly be. Wikipedia may be one of the only websites that directly comments on the vagueness and conflicting information existing about him. This is something that I hope any media sources will be informed about in relation to Lewis, rather than them using one of the sites that just says "1910" or "1923". JackO'Lantern 23:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replaced Disputed tag 

message: We have a big paragraph about his mother, but what about his father? Did he ever talk about him or say who he was? (And "Meister" is his father's surname, right?) JackO'Lantern 23:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: perhaps his father left when he was young, or he was illegitimate and never even knew who he was? That might explain the vagueness. Arniep 15:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I'm thinking, and I'd really like to find out for sure. JackO'Lantern 23:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: His father?

message: When did we switch to the format of (see reference #). I don't see that as the standard in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Is it something new, or some experimenting in this article?
--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 16:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See reference 

message: Has anyone found the address or a website for his restaurant? The closest in name has been: Grandpa's Brick Oven Pizza; 4973 Broadway - New York, NY 10034. But I dont think this is it. Its in midtown and has no references to Al Lewis on the website. What can you find?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 17:34, 2006 February 9 (UTC)
:The former Grampa's Bella Gente was at 252 Bleecker Street in Greenwich Village. The building was torn down and replaced by a new one in 1999. — Walloon 19:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restaurant 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Grandpa.jpg

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Al lewis green party video 1.png

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Al lewis green party video 2.png

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Al Lewis 01.jpg

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Al Lewis 01.jpg

message: Lortel Archives (The Internet Off-Broadway Database) has an Albert Lewis credited in the cast of The Iceman Cometh in 1956. Other cast members included Jason Robards, Peter Falk, Conrad Bain, and Malachi Throne, directed by José Quintero. Perhaps someone could check cast photos to see if he is Al Lewis. — Walloon (talk) 04:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Iceman Cometh 

message: Direct link to SSI Death Index listing for future reference. (Now to get imdb.com to fix their entry.... Evan1975 (talk) 20:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  SSI Death Index 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Apparently Lewis was involved in a time share promotion at some point. He even got on a Detroit radio station and pitched one back in 2002 or 2003. Fox 2 Detroit did a story on it. Might be worth researching and adding to the article. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENg16s5EllE 199.66.69.13 (talk) 02:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time share promotions? 

message: After reading most of the talk page, I don't understand why there are several places where it says the date of birth is "resolved." Clearly, it isn't. It seems to me that looking up the high school records would be one of the best places to look. Surely, there is some record of when he attended and how old he was at the time, or at least knowing that he was typical age for the grades he was in. Then, it should be obvious what year, 1910 or 1923, that he was born in. It seems like some of the comments here saying, "well CNN said," or "the Social Security Admin said" is not proof of anything. Everyone knows the media get things wrong all the time. And the SSA isn't necessarily correct either. Look up the high school's records! 2600:1700:BC01:9B0:544F:E012:2320:EFE4 (talk) 00:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Referring to the Social Security Administration and SSA records, anyone born before 1936 can easily have faulty records because the SSA was not created (on paper) until 1935, and the first office was not opened until October 1936. People who had already been born before then had a lot of leeway when it came to providing proof of anything when they were registered for their social security number (which they would not get until after SSA began). Add into the mix that there were often mistakes made by recorders (establishment of hundreds of millions of new records was messy in the age before computers). For anyone born before 1936, birth or census records are often more reliable than SSA records.— al-Shimoni (talk) 15:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth Year Debate