Talk:Kotromanić dynasty

message: Dear HRE, all of a sudden, Stjepan isn't enough "Serb name"  for you anymore? 
Again, I'm putting the name into neutral version. Sooner or later, you'll have discussion with other users from Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina about Tvrtko's first/second name. 
Noble houses were abroad called according to the language of speakers, just like today we call the Pope with our national names. 
Just like Iohannes Paulus II was John Paul in English, Ivan Pavao in Croatian, Jovan Pavle in Serbian. Peter the Great is Peter here, although he's originally Pyotr. 
This is english wiki, so let's stick to english version .I'm not pushing in here the Croat version, neither I am against Serb versions by default. On Croat wiki he's Stjepan, on Serb wiki, Serbs'll call him Stefan of Stevan. But here let's stay to english version.
We really don't need any edit wars. At least we can avoid them here. Kubura 14:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Stjepan is not Croatian name?" Come on, get serious. Wake up. Live a life. Michael Voislav instead of Mihailo Voislav? Personally, it should be that way. Just like Stephen Drzislav or Stephen Dusan (in English literature). Anjou house is being called Angevins. With Hellen... what if the name comes from "jelen"? Then, if English grammar/historiography  officially accepts Ostoya instead of Ostoja, I don't have anything against that.Kubura 13:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I meant not solely Croatian. I am awake - and I'm living a life for years by now, thank you. ;) I oppose your suggestions, since simple google search reports it as so - your suggestions are either lower in search results or non-existent. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Why then Stefan? Kubura 13:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He is not called Stefan. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: It is easy to give up from something that is not yours. Kubura 13:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does that mean? --HolyRomanEmperor 21:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I've put the comment about the surname among Croats. Kubura 13:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, although it is very possibly true, could you back it up? For instance - through irony - the name Tvrtko appeared for the first time with the Serbs - and Tvrtko was most probably named that way to conote him with the Bosnian branch of the House of Nemanjic. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, in older Croatian literature (I don't mean the one from 14th century), emperor Dušan was called Stjepan or even Stipan Dušan. I'll tell you the source later. Problem is with those reprinted books, even with those from late 20th century, that many had no "index pages" at the end of the book. So searching for a few words in a 400 pages book is a terrible work here. Kubura 13:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...as he is called Stjepan in the Serbian Epic poem I presented to you. What did you want to say? --HolyRomanEmperor 21:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serb name 

message: To start with my last name is Bosnjak, comes from a very old village called "Bosna" parts of it "Bosnjacko Polje" and so on. It got its name from the river Bosna which the village is very close too. The Village is and has always been Serbian. We are all Serbs from that village with the lastname Bosnjak  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.239.244 (talk) 15:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, yeah; they were all called "Stefan"s except for the very first Kotroman, whose real name I can't source anywhere. --PaxEquilibrium 18:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Because there are slightly more google search results for some of the Kotromanics. Although errorously, they are refered to "Stjepan" to an extent more than "Stefan"s. Regardless of the fact of their true name (it is stated in the article) the article's title should be whatever is most notable. --PaxEquilibrium 22:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop dicking around with the names 

message: Their ethnicity has nothing to do with their nationality. You won't call Australian an ethnicity just like you wouldn't call Bosnian an enthnicity. Just bcos the politics of the 21st century allow for crap like that to be spread along with the "Bosnian language" it has nothing to do with the Kotromanic's. Bosnian are either Serbian or Croatian of orthodox Christian roman catholic or Muslim religion. They were of Serbian ethnicity otherwise Tvrtko couldn't have claimed the Serbian crown. It's that simple.  And that nonsense about bosnians being some yet unknown Slavic group that waited for the 20th century to be descovered is the latest fad in the Balkans where people of different religions or politcal gains invent their histories through quasiscience and pseudohistory. You got the Croatians, then the macedonians, then bosnians and the lastest group of ex-serbs the montenegrins who fashion themselves after a black mountain.
:Assigning ethnicity to rulers who were often descended from foreign rulers is not practical at all. What ethnicity would you assign to Victoria of the United Kingdom? All of her ancestors withing 6 generations were of German descent, but nobody disputes the fact that Victoria was British. There are numerous other examples. He and his paternal ancestors were born and resided in Bosnia, so we can safely call him Bosnian without implying that he was Serb, Bosniak or Croat. Tvrtko I's mother was of Croatia; his grandmother was of Serbia; his great-grandmother was of Hungary; one of his great-grandmothers was of Naples and the other one of the Cumans (a Turkish tribe). Yet Serb nationalists will say that Croats are in fact Serbs and that Neapolitans and Turks are Serbs too, and that Adam and Eve were Serbs too. Please don't start more ethnicity wars. Surtsicna (talk) 14:34, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Tvrtko I: Tvrtko accepted the title by the mercy of God famous King of Rascia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, the Seaside... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tvrtko_I_of_Bosnia  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.253.135.178 (talk) 19:21, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kotromanic ethnicity 

message: ‎ Surtsicna, dear "contributor" stop editing something you don't know what is about the Kotromanić dinasty was of Croatian ethnicity BUT Bosnian nationality. Bosnian ethnicity never EVER existed, no files, no documents. No signs of BOSNIAN ethnicity were ever found, every dinasty that ruled Bosnia were either Croatian or serbian... But in most cases Croatian.
No doubt the house of Kotromanić were Croatian ethnicity. And Serbs just have the feeling that everything is "serbian" even though there are clear evidences and proofs what happend.
Even today Serbs are trying to "prove" THAT Dubrovnik was serbian even though all writers from Dubrovnik were Croats. We could call Dubrovnik the hearth of Croatian language, but we could also identify Dubrovnik as hearth and soul of "serbian" and "bosnian" language at the same time since those two are the new-born languages that are nothing different from Croatian. 
This argue over our and their history is a pure bullshit! They are trying to steal our history, our soul of ethnicity, language and so on...
It seems Plato was right when he said "only the dead see the end of war" because serbian aggression has never stopped and it will never end, they either attack physically or politically.
War is something anyone doesn't want to experience but the fact is that Bosnia is Croatian land since the beginning.
Thanks  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.253.135.178 (talk) 19:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kotromanić(ch) were ethnic Croats but Bosnians rulers and strongest rulers of Bosnia ever 

message: Can we please have a source confirming that this is the family's coat of arms? I have not seen it before. Surtsicna (talk) 11:56, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Please stop edit war and discuss any changes here. Thank you. Tersarius (talk) 12:00, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

text: Scroll down the image page and see the source linked. The legend reads: "Tinctures known from Richental's Concil in Constance, held from 1414 to 1418." 77.238.223.222 (talk) 18:04, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  That doesn't look like a WP:RS. Dorsetonian (talk) 13:06, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: And it isn't. Surtsicna (talk) 14:36, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

text: Here are links to scans of the armorials given as a source by WappenWiki: Version by Conrad Grünenberg Version by Ulrich of Richenthal --Kivisto (talk) 14:03, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The WappenWiki depiction is just a drawing of the Richental's emblazonment. 2400:6180:0:D0:0:0:1004:9001 (talk) 18:13, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: See this page in Wernigerode Armorial (from around the same time as Richental's) and the page description. King of Bosnia (König von Wossen) has been represented with 2 coats of arms, one of which is the same as in Richental (and in Grünenberg except striped gules bend sinister). WappenWiki cited its sources correctly. 217.197.140.190 (talk) 17:24, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coat of arms 

message: Please, I gave primary sources, how picture of his charter where he clearly says that his title was "King of Serbs and Bosnia", and not "King of Bosnians and Bosnia", also I gave source where there is even picture of Ninoslav's charter where it also says that he claims to be Serbian.  I'm not nationalistic editor, but these are facts. MilosHaran (talk) 11:22, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: "King of the Serbs" referred to the claim to the throne of Serbia. Wikipedia is not based on primary sources. The claim that there was no Bosnian identity in the Middle Ages, even if only regional, is laughable. Surtsicna (talk) 12:10, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Give me ONE PRIMARY SOURCE where there is Bosnian identity in the Middle Ages. I see that you don't know anything about Bosnian ethnic origin in Middle Ages. You also didn't answered on Ninoslav's charter. Also, Tvrtko I's successors had always same tittle "King of Serbs and Bosnia", they never added Bosnian identity or something same, also you haven't answered WHY IS THERE NO KING OF BOSNIANS. ″The claim that there was no Bosnian identity in the Middle Ages, even if only regional, is laughable″ this is literally the stupidest thing in history I ever heard. Constantine Porphyrogenitus in document DAI said that Bosnia was Serbian land. MilosHaran (talk) 13:11, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not based on primary sources. If you want to discuss primary sources, go to Reddit. There is no "King of the Bosnians" because there is "King of Bosnia". "King of the Serbs" referred to Serbia, not Bosnia. That is the consensus among Serbian historians. Surtsicna (talk) 13:15, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: If I can see reliable source claims Kotromanići hat Croatian roots. Check: Ante Cuvalo, The A to Z of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Volume 218 of The A to Z Guide Series, 	Scarecrow Press, 2010, ISBN 1461671787, pp. 130-131. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 13:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: By your logic, the ruler of Ulm had title "Ruler of Imperial City Ulm", so does that means, the people there are Ulmians, not German? YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED ON NINOSLAV'S CHATTER. MilosHaran (talk) 13:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked author of that book, he supports Ante Pavelić, no point to discuss about that book, while we also have archaeological facts. MilosHaran (talk) 13:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

text: Of course the people of Ulm are Ulmians. Will it surprise you to learn that the people of Belgrade are Belgraders? Surtsicna (talk) 14:07, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh, you were the whole time talking that they are like Ulmians for example? Then my bad. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °) MilosHaran (talk) 14:19, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

text:  this editor's sole occupation seems to be denying historical Albanian and Bosnian identities, and Bulgarian history as well. See also Talk:Skanderbeg. On "hot" issues like this, this is highly disruptive and corrosive to community health. If this continues I believe the community may need to progress to sanctions of the WP:ARBMAC variety.--Calthinus (talk) 15:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You are not right. I'm editor on Serbian Wikipedia, and I had written many great articles, like Dervan's Serbia, Stefan Dusan, Vlastimir, Stefan Vojislav, Viseslav, Uros I Vukanovic, Constantine Bodin, Ban Kulin, Skanderbeg and now I'm writing Stefan Decanski. The only reason I came on this Wikipedia because this makes no sense. MilosHaran (talk) 16:11, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I will not go on this English Wikipedia anymore, so you can be happy. MilosHaran (talk) 16:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is no Bosnian identity in middle ages