Talk:Bayeux Tapestry

message: At present, the article does not state when the tapestry was actually created. Perhaps some smart person can add that.
Ordinary Person (talk) 03:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not known for sure. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Even without the certainty there should be some discussion of the known time frames.  I had to click on the link of Edith of Wessex to find out that it was potentially created around the time of the depicted events as opposed to hundreds of years later.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.213.216.84 (talk) 02:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Years of creation 

message: ...its serial storytelling is considered an ancestor of the comic strip.
The Bayeux Tapestry is an ancestor of comic strip? Medieval storytelling was highly graphic (in large past as most people could not read) and there is a long tradition of graphic serial story telling that goes back to, well, pre-historic cave paintings. It's unclear what the connection to comic strips and the Bayeux Tapestry is. This was not the first graphic serial story. Stbalbach 22:20, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comic strip? 

message: Would anyone object (or support) this article being reverted to the pre-June 4th version, before the mass of new text was added by 67.191.224.15 ? Stbalbach 04:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just re-read the text and it's not as bad as I initially thought, but the primary source seems to be a 1966 National Geographic Magazine article, and it certainly reads that way. Lots of asides and anedotes and stories, not typical encyclopedic fare, and not typical Wikipedia material. It makes it more difficult for future editors to contribute, this is essentially a long pre-written stylized essay someone has cut and paste in. There are also a bunch of citations with no references. Stbalbach 05:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like it either but I wonder whether to get rid of the POV and chatter rather than revert the whole business. The citations are absurd unless these books are listed (Setton is). But is the thing a copyright violation? I don't know whether to take your National Geographic reference literally! If so, it should be removed regardless of its encyclopedic merits. Thincat 12:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, look at the refrences, it says "Sutton" as a 1966 NatGeo article, and sutton references throughout. I was thinking of finding an old back issue and check for , but not sure where to find one. It certainly reads like a copyvio. With some work and effort it may be possible to cut out the relevant and encyclopedic parts. It would be nice if the anon editor chimed in on his sources and pedigree, but that he/she probably wont makes it all the more less credible. Stbalbach 14:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened to this article? 

message: The assertion in the article that, "The main artist must have been a Frenchman," is somewhat dubious. Much work has been done in this field and there is actually significant indication that the Tapestry was the design of an English artist. As well as the skill and renown of English embroiderers at the time, the use of Latin derived from Old English and key details in the depictions suggest an Anglo-Saxon construction that was designed to appease the Norman invaders, while asserting the illegitimacy of their reign to all Englishmen (and any other Germanic people). These include: 
1) An apparently apologetic Harold on his return to England (having sworn an oath) and Edward apparently admonishing his earl. This scene is inconsistent with the Norman assertion that Harold was sent to provide surety for William's succession.
2) Harold's apparent heroism in dragging member's of William's army out of the quick-sand near the River Couesnon would appear to have been included to demonstrate Harold's nobility and further emphasise the abuse of William in forcing the earl to swear an oath. This is consistent with Anglo-Saxon legal tradition that rejected sworn oaths made under duress.
3) In the scene depicting Edward's deathbed, Harold and Edward's fingers are touching, following the Anglo-Saxon tradition of a pictorial narrative. This touching of hands was symbolic of a solemn commendation, i.e. Edward was solemnly conferring the throne to Harold. (This scene also confirms the arrangements identified in the Vita Ædwardi, which may well have been written at Canterbury around the same time that the Tapestry was being undertaken. The Tapestry most likely having been produced at St. Augustine's, Canterbury).
4) There are key differences between the events as depicted in the Tapestry and in Norman sources. The Tapestry is, however, consistent with Anglo-Saxon sources such as the Vita Ædwardi and Eadmer.
Given this, does anyone have reasonable objection to a change in the article that identifies the artist as English (or most likely English)? Valiant Son 13:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Having read a bulk of work on the period and undertaken my undergraduate special study on the issue it is rather galling that what I have said be described as, "your own analysis based on a small selection of critical work." It is based on a hug range of work and I merely suggested that, in line with the majority historical view prevailing, the article should show that the artist was "most likely" English. I can even give academic referencing for this! Valiant Son 03:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Artist of the Tapestry 

message: Based on comments above, I'm taking the bold step of reverting the article back to the version before the mass of new text was added by 67.191.224.15 on June 4th, back to the May 31 2005 version. 67.191.224.15 has not responded either to fix concerns listed above, or to provide more information on sources, and further problems have arisen with NPOV and factual concerns. This is a complicated topic, that has many theories, and only a single POV is being presented in a format that makes it very difficult if not impossible for other editors to edit. In addition much of the material is simply triva that has nothing to do with the tapestry and is not very Wikipedia-like. The current article still needs a lot of work. It would be good to have some structure such as "there are many theories who made it.. one is.." to set the precedent, so we can start listing theories. Stbalbach 07:21, 20 October 2005 (UT
This is absurd. The article did have some NPOV, but with some editing this could have been removed. Instead, you showed up, took a two second look and blew away 5 months of edits. Someone needs to revert this back.
--JDooley 02:23, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: JDooley appears to be a very casual user of Wikipedia lately, to move this along Im reverting until further discussion. I would ask JDooly and others to look at the article edit history pre- and post- June 4, and review the discussions above, to see the material in question. Thank You. Stbalbach 00:21, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone's in a rush to revert. It's a Battle of Hastiness. We need concensus. We need William the Concurrer. Wahkeenah 00:26, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: True. Well, the easiest thing is do nothing. Thats what happened 5 months ago. Im not sure 3 people is consensus though, its been hard enough to get the attention just of two other people on the talk page. Stbalbach 00:41, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I um, fourth the motion to revert. -timothymh, who is definitely not a bunny. 21:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

text: To follow up, I have just bought a 1966 National Geographic from eBay ($3). At worst it'll be an interesting article about the Norman Conquest (and possibly some B&W topless Africans), at best we will get to the bottom of the mystery of the source of the text. It will take 30 days or so to receive and verify. Stbalbach 00:33, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a copy, actually. The one topless African is in color. Page 165. The Norman Conquest article runs nearly 50 pages, so I can't transcribe it for you. Do you want me to check out anything in particular? Other than page 165? Wahkeenah 00:50, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh! The wonders of Wikipedia. Well I suspect the content added by 67.191.224.15 starting June 4th (see edit history) is lifted directly from the NatGeo article (not including page 165) thus copyright violation. Stbalbach 01:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Ok its probably not a strong enough case, paraphrasing seems to be accepted on Wikipedia so long as sources are cited. I'll restore the article. Unless you find anything else clearly word for word. Ill check too when my copy arrives. Stbalbach 02:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting article

message: As Malecasta noted above in October, the article still needs a lot of work (the origins part). But at least the nature of the debate is more clearly outlined and not so muddled. We need (a lot) more detail on the specifics on both sides. As the article stands today, based on the material we started with, it leans heavily in the pro-Anglo-Saxon side of things which is probably not good. Stbalbach 07:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  France vs England 

message: The edits by anon user  are correct, the article should be written in the past tense, it is either a policy, or at least MoS guidelines. Otherwise it reads like where the article is sourced from: a National Geographic author who spent a few months traveling around England/France and writing a journalistic report. --Stbalbach 02:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past tense 

message: This article does little more than assert, So-and-so thinks X created the tapestry.  Some other people think Y created the tapestry.  X is probably right."  If it instead presented the case for each side, cited precise attributions, and offered corresponding illustrations to demonstrate the case for each side - then it might have the makings of a featured article. Durova 18:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Tapestry's Origins 

message: I don't know if this is a good or constructive idea (depends on what sources the present article used and a couple other factors)... I admit to being no specialist on the question, and not having much in the way of creditable sources... But I thought it might be clever to check Wiki-French and try to see if that article is better than this one, and if necessary to fish the juicy bits and translate them here. Is this a tolerated procedure? Do you folk think it's a good idea in the first place? In case the motion should be approved, I, as a native French speaker, and having opened my big hole in the first place would volunteer to do it... and a bat bit of work it should be, as the two articles are organized differently, and comparing data will not be that clear cut. --Svartalf 01:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: French vs English

message: I didn't see anything about references to the tapestry in modern (pop) culture, though I presume there are many. One I came across recently was in a computer game, and I append a screenshot. The section of the tapestry shown here runs from Harold and William approaching Rouen to the departure of William for Mont St. Michel. In between is the famous Aelfgyva and the cleric scene. There is at least another section displayed in the game, featuring the scenes showing the construction of Westminster and the funeral of Edward.
Neale Monks 14:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possibly amusing use of the tapestry in pop culture? 

message: I recall there was some minor controversey over the tapestry several years ago over what appeared to be a turkey on the border. This was held as proof of pre-coloumbian contact with the americas. I believe it was disproved but is it worth a mention on the article anyway?Amanoman 20:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Galliform birds similar in appearance to the American turkey are also found in the Old World: it is a member of the same family as pheasants and grouse. Accidental  resemblances are also frequent in the biological world: e.g. Australia's native brush turkey belongs to a different family of birds than the true turkey but they are nonetheless quite alike. Zoetropo (talk) 14:11, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkey 

message: Bayeux tapestry is being made again by YTMND users as they include bayeux tapestry versions of various YTMND fads, from "Nigga stole my bike" to "Yonder moor coveted mine steed", The original "You're the man now dog" to "Thou art the man henseforth dog", or even "What is Love" to "What doth love be"
Post made by flashn00b
Is this why this article is listed under internet memes? Because there's nothing in the article to say why it's a 'net meme as far as I can see. I'm confused! Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm not sure why it is listed in this category. If anyone could clarify this? Thanks Redclaire 17:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bayeux = YTMND fad 

message: Hello. I wonder what can be said about the Latin text. Maybe there are some clues about who wrote it, to judge by the text itself. Maybe it is possible to comment on its literary quality as well. Finally it would be nice to identify the style of letters and how that fits with pen-written documents of the same age. 207.174.201.18 00:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, there is some indication that the Tapestry is of Anglo-Saxon origin due to some forms of Latin which are used. Off the top of my head I cannot remember what they are. b_cubed 19:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin text 

message: I changed the link in the first paragraph from Normandy to Basse-Normandie, the actual region Bayeux is in. Jake95(talk!) 21:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Normandy 

message: Would this suffice as a reference for the New Yorker cover parody:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/churchill/interactive/_html/wc0220.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.54.82.97 (talk) 18:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Yorker cover 

message: Someone please correct the "earliest reference" as in a 2007 Bayeux Cathedral inventory? 2007 is obviously not the first appearance of the tapestry. I would be interested in knowing when.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.7.98 (talk) 22:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. It's called vandalism, don'cha know. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistyped date near the head of the entry 

message: http://www.westga.edu/~handbook/index.php?page=studentactivitiesandstudentorganizations
http://www.westga.edu/~artdept/abroad.html
http://www.westga.edu/~artdept/agp.html
don't currently have time to add them in but hope someone else can Werecowmoo (talk) 15:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  citations for added University of West Georgia info 

message: The word "restoration" does not appear in the article.  Has there been any?  A repair is mentioned from antiquity.  Is there any record or speculation of what repairs have occurred?  Tempshill (talk) 00:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restorations? 

message: The third paragraph claims "the Latin text contains hints of Anglo Saxon" - this is an ambiguous statement. Does the writer mean that the language is that of the Anglo-Saxons (Old English)? Or that the font style is reminiscent of Anglo-Saxon texts? Or something else? Perhaps someone with a better knowledge than me of the subject could clarify  ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 16:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know, but the fact the Normans are called Franci "Franks" or "French" could suggest, that it was made in England, because nobody would have called the Normans, the Bretons and the Flemish people "French" in what is today "France" at that time. The regional identies remained very strong until the 15 th century (see Duby's William Marshall) and the French were identified in France as the inhabitants of Paris and Ile-de-France, like the French language today, that is mainly the language of Paris. The French national feeling is something modern that began at Joan of Arc's time. Nortmannus (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read texts from the 11th century that speak of Bretons, Normans, French and English as four distinct groups, but I've also read some that lumped the Normans in with the French, but separately from the Bretons.  It is worth noting that Ralph the Staller, who was lord of Gael and Montfort in Brittany, signed Breton charters as "Ralph Anglicus" ("Ralph the Englishman").  Ralph was an official under Edward the Confessor, and may have been born in England.  So "English" wasn't so much an ethnic term as a national one, in a way that approached the modern sense. Zoetropo (talk) 12:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Language?

message: I just removed this picture from the lead. Yes it is a nice clear pic.... but it can't rightly be claimed to be the Bayeux tapestry. It is a painted representation of part of the tapestry, not a photgraph of the tapestry itself. That is why the colours are so clear and bright. 
Amandajm (talk) 12:15, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed pic

message: Does there exist a scrollable image of the whole tapestry, 
There is one at http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/ Ceola (talk) 18:09, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scrollable image of the whole thing? 

message: There's a strange paragraph at the end of the "Reliability" section. It's badly written, and anyone who knows exactly what it means should probably rewrite it, or it should be removed. I'll modify it a little, but I'm not certain exactly what it's about, so I will only touch it up superficially. --PlantPerson (talk) 00:19, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Anomalous paragraph in "Reliability"

message: I have moved the section containing the Latin text with an English translation out of this article and into Bayeux Tapestry tituli. The section (which I had added myself) was too long in my view.  Thincat (talk) 10:31, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin text with English translation 

message: Following from last entry: Great mistake! Your addition was excellent and much needed in the main article and should remain there in a central position. The Latin text and translation is fundamental to an understanding of the Tapestry, not merely an appendix which can be consulted by interested readers. The current article cannot hope to inform the reader about the Tapestry unless it explains it scene by scene. We are letting down readers by not giving them the full tapestry. Length should not be an issue. It will still be quite a short article compared to some (i.e. King John is 33 pages!). Separating the two also creates the need for a new intro. which causes duplication & eventual divergence which will require later rationalisation. I have accordingly added merge to/from tags to both articles suggesting a re-merger. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 18:33, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: tituli is the correct scholarly term, but probably too unfamiliar for this popular article; "annotations" are usually added later. Johnbod (talk) 21:30, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggest re-merger of table of text

message: I notice Johnbod has removed the [Category:Anglo-Saxon documents], and I'm just wondering if that's wise. I accept that both the "Anglo-Saxon" and the "document" elements are debatable. However, in my view the BT is undoubtedly a document (albeit in an unusual medium), and I see Johnbod hasn't removed the category from Bayeux Tapestry tituli. "Anglo-Saxon" is more borderline, as the Tapestry is (axiomatically) post-Conquest; but it was made, according to the dominant school of thought, by Anglo-Saxon embroiderers, and the text includes Anglo-Saxon characters and spellings. On balance, I feel that categories are cheap, and that if a subject even arguably falls into one it may as well be included. I didn't originally add the category, incidentally, but felt the point was worth at least a brief discussion. GrindtXX (talk) 18:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The tituli article covers the "document" aspect; if we didn't have that I would have left this one in. But as we do have it, it's better those looking for documents to go straight there, I thought. Johnbod (talk) 21:10, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglo-Saxon document? 

message: Does anyone have objections to replacing the lede image with something of better quality? The current image is small and looks like it was photographed with an on camera flash at point blank range. I propose replacing it with one of these:
File:Odo bayeux tapestry.png|1
File:Bayeux Tapestry scene57 Harold death.jpg|2 (already in the article)
File:COSNONIS-COESNON.JPG|3
File:|3
File:|4
Each of these varies in the color of the background. Perhaps someone who has seen the tapestry in person can comment on which is more color accurate. - MrX 00:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better lede image? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Just added the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnieUa2-22o&t=253s by Lindybeige. It was undone with the caption "random youtube video isn't good for external link" by User:Ealdgyth. Please watch the video first before removing it. It really adds to the article. It is a well researched and entertaining Video explaining the step by step the history of the depicted scenes. You have studied history as you say in your profile. You should know that knowlede mediation is a big issue for our disciplines! Please rethink the edit and maybe watch the video. As long as it dosn't compromise any Wiki guidelines (I am usually editing the german Wiki) we should consider adding it. I'd like to hear your thoughts! Greetings Wikisassonia (talk) 11:57, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't provide advertising for people's random youtube videos. It's that simple. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Really? That'S the reason? So we don't link to people's articles anymore because it advertises them? Anyone else on this issue? I am not Lindybeige nor am I a friend or a big fan of his work, but this video is genuinly well done. I don't care to much if it gets added i just think we should consider it, because it makes accessing this topic easier for more people. Again, does linking this video violate any guidelines or is it just your oppinion, that youtube videos are not worth linking to? Wikisassonia (talk) 12:24, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  The person isn't an expert in history. The person doesn't seem to specialize in medieval history topics - I checked their other viedos. They link to a patreon page and solicit donations/contributions, so yeah, we don't need to be driving more traffic to their videos, especially as they have no qualifications in the topic area to make them a subject matter expert. A youtube video done by one of the authors of the works we use as references would be useful. A video from a documentary producer with a history of producing history videos would be useful. A video by a college professor who is a medieval history or art history professor would be useful. A youtube video by a random person who does a whole lot of youtube videos isn't useful. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:35, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  [edited because i got a bit upset, sry] Yes, he makes money with people watching his video - as does every other youtuber or media site or documentary producer or researcher. But: He has a BA in Archaeology as far as i know. Contrary to what you wrote he largely specialises in medieval warfare and history. You don't have to be a college professor to present the results of other researchers in an understandable and entertaining way. How is a documentary producer - who most likely is a journalist or a media person of some kind - more suitable to be featured on this site, than an independent researcher? But I am not starting a discussion about who is worthy enough to be linked to this article. You should really watch the video before judging it. I am just leaving this out here as a suggestion. Please watch and consider adding it to this site, if you think it adds to the topic. Thanks for consideration. Greetings Wikisassonia (talk) 14:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:ELNO #1 and #11 seem relevant here. External-links sections in articles aren't intended to be a catch-all for anything related that happens to be found on the Web. Deor (talk) 14:16, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thx Deor. I agree. #1 is relevant in this case. I disagree about #11. Thank you for pointing it out Wikisassonia (talk) 14:21, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Video by Lindybeige 

message: Btw, * A Guide to the Bayeux Tapestry – Latin-English translation seems to be dead? Wikisassonia (talk) 14:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: i deleted it 188.195.181.146 (talk) 07:57, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored an archive of the link because we try not to delete links solely because they are dead. WP:KDL discusses this. However, I'm not necessarily suggesting the link is worth keeping but I'll leave it to others to delete if it is not worth having. Thincat (talk) 08:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Weblink 

message: I've removed the sentence somebody added about the possible loan of the tapestry to the UK which has been reported in the British press today. First of all it doesn't belong in the Recorded history section and secondly it has only been agreed in primciple by President Macron. To quote from an article in the Times today  "The Élysée Palace confirmed the loan of the tapestry today, saying that it would probably be sent to Britain for several months after 2020. An aide to Mr Macron said: “This symbolises the strength of our historic relations. Very important restoration work has to be carried out first.” It was also reported today that the tapestry would have to be assessed first to see if it was ok to be transported. It also says in the Times article that it expected to go to the British museum but then goes on to say "Although the museum stopped short of confirming that it had secured the loan, its director gave a statement saying that his museum would welcome it". In the end it probably will happen as it also says in the article "It will be taken to London after restoration and displayed in the capital while the French museum undergoes refurbishment before it reopens in 2023" but until a firm date for an exhibition is agreed then to talk about it in this article is premature. Richerman (talk) 21:44, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: We should add something - if only to prevent a continuous stream of helpful isp's doing so, which they will. Johnbod (talk) 13:15, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible loan to UK 

message: Or is that just news hype nonsense? Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 07:31, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You're probably thinking of the continuation by residents of Alderney, mentioned at the end of the "Replicas and continuations" section. GrindtXX (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is there any mention of the end bit being restored by Guernsey residents in the page? 

message: The end of the second-to-last parapgraph of the "Unsettled Questions" section reads as follows:
"It has been speculated that this scene, occurring after the meeting of Harold and William, is to remind the contemporary viewers of a scandal that occurred between Ælfgifu of Northampton and Emma of Normandy, Cnut's wives, that eventually led to the crowning of Edward the Confessor, child of Cnut and Emma."
Edward wasn't Cnut's child. Am I reading this incorrectly? He was the son of Emma and Aethelred the Unready. 195.99.153.210 (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parenthood of Edward the Confessor 

message: I added the "See Also" link, but it was reverted as unrelated.  I don't think that's true!  There are very few Romanesque tapestries that have survived 900+ years...the Bayeux Tapestry is one, another is the Tapestry of Creation.  I know of no others.  Seems to me the See Also
links (also the link from that article back to here) are entirely justified - historically, from the point of view of ancient tapestries, the rare examples of Romanesque tapestries, etc. Bdushaw (talk) 15:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there is the Cloth of Saint Gereon. But I have reverted the removal. Johnbod (talk) 15:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversion of "See Also" link to [[Tapestry of Creation]]