Talk:Afrocentrism/Archive 4

message: Well, I've been reading Toynbee's "white supremacist" book A Study of History. He discusses racial difference at the beginning, commenting that "the physical characteristic most commonly emphasised by Western advocates of racial theories is colour. It is, of course, just conceivable that spiritual and mental superiority is somehow linked up with, and therefore positively correlated with, comparable absence of skin pigmentation though this seems biologically improbable." He goes on to ridicule the theory of the superiority of the Nordic race and the Aryan race. He proceeds to use the then-dominant tripartite model of Nordic, Alpine and Mediterranean races to discuss contributions to various civilisations, and goes on to comment on the civilisations created by Oriental and Amerindian peoples. The offending sentence appears at this point - "the black races alone have not contributed positively to any civilization - as yet. The White races hold the lead, but it is to remembered that there are many White peoples that are as innocent of having made any contribution to any civilization as the Blacks themselves. If anything positive emerges from this classification it is that half our civilizations were based on contributions from more than one race." So Toynbee is very sceptical about race theories based on 'skin pigmentation' and stresses multi-race 'contributions'. Yes he says that the 'black races' have not made a contribution 'as yet', but points out that that's as true as many White peoples. He later on has a lengthy passage about African-American spirituality, which sometimes reads as though he's been overdosing on The Green Pastures, but is clearly an attempt envisage a forthcoming civilising role of black Americans. Paul B 00:04, 26 Apr, 2005 (UTC)   
    
---I agree completely. Toynbee is really not a "white supremacist." To call him that really belittles the extreme racism of many other writers. Toynbee does not believe that race is the determining factor in history. He's not a racist. He believes that there are a certain number of civilizations, including the Indian, Chinese, Western, etc... None of his civilizations are black African unless you include the Egyptian. Of course his view is certainly that some civilizations are more advanced than others, and he believes African cultures are at an earlier stage of development. This view is certainly open to criticism, but I definitely wouldn't call it racist. It isn't motivated by hate or a political argument for white superiority. It is, however, something that Afrocentric scholars should, rationally, argue against. Just remember that Toynbee did not "hate" people of other races. His idea of cultural development is, however, dated. ---dcb11   
    
--One of the challenges here is that I do not look at either racism or white supremacy as being driven by hatred. Remember that there was a great deal of real (as in "not faked") paternalist sentiment imbued into the slave trade. White Christians thought they were civilizing Africans and bringing God into their lives. There are several narratives (including that of [Thomas Jefferson]) that contain heartfelt sentiment towards "blacks" even as they argue that "blacks" are inferior to "whites." So while I agree that Toynbee was not a member of the KKK (or its British equivalent), and I agree that Toynbee did not evince hatred towards blacks (or non-whites), that in and of itself does not mean much. The much better argument is that Toynbee's WORK did not reflect racism or white supremacy. Again, if we take emotional content (feelings of "hatred" or "prejudice") out of the equation, and look simply at the racial/cultural hierarchy, it is clear that Toynbee puts the "white race" on top and the "black race" on bottom EVEN AS HE REJECTS THE CONCEPT OF RACIAL HIERARCHY. This reflects a significant amount of ambivalence on Toynbee's part...but still it is clear that when it comes to dealing with blacks, Toynbee argues (almost regretfully) that they have not contributed to civilization AT ALL. Toynbee is NOT a white supremacist like say a contemporary writer like Rushton. He is not even a racist like [Thomas Jefferson]. But his research findings ARE. So what does that mean for this particular entry? I argue that there are three reasons at least why Toynbee should be excluded. The first is that his findings have been shown persuasively to be false. His arguments about the "black race", his arguments about African civilization, and his arguments about Egypt, have both been soundly rejected by scholars. The second (and this is of less importance) is that his scholarship reflects a type of racism which WAS common, but led to the biases reflected in his scholarship.---lks   
    
--The man is a racist, is known to be a racist and any attempt of vindicating his ignoble bile is unfortunate. Where was Abbyssinia in Toynbee's thesis? Did that fact that it was one of the largest and most powerful empires in the world not classify it as a civilization solely due to its populous? Pathetic. The previous poster noted that whites did not see slavery as a bad thing at all, rather they - the white christians - thought they were doing humanity a service by civilizing the backward Africans. He/she even threw in Thomas Jefferson and his sympathetic writings to the cause. How benevolent, and sad, pathetic and the worst piece of racist trash i've ever come across. If the white christians truly believed they were enlightening the blacks, why did they butcher 10 million in the process of bringing them over to enlightened America, why enslave the rest and continue to pillage half their continent if it really was about helping them? How disturbing an argument can someone possibly formulate?! advice for next time, dont throw in a known rapist to strenghten your argument.. [unsigned entry]   
    
:I'm just discovering this subhead. Missed it somehow. Boy, am I glad I entered that Toynbee quote. Still trying to claim Toynbee isn't a stark, raving, foaming-at-the-mouth white supremacist/racist? This man who essentially stated that there was no African civilization worthy of serious study, whose A Study of History is a virtual friggin' bible for Western historians and professors of history? Yeah. Right. Toynbee's racism is legend. ROTFLMBAO. :D User:deeceevoice 16:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Toynbee's racism may or may not be a legend.  But your own racism, deeceevoice, is legendary here on wikipedia.  It is quite sad that you are vocal, as you inspire little other than unpleasant sentiments and racial conflict where there was none.  And, of course, you are quite clearly nothing but undeniably and unmistakably American.  "Africans" (african or otherwise, even American) in general are little to nothing like you. --70.49.165.24 03:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: White Supremacist Toynbee

message: I've added some very preliminary info regarding the Discovery Channel's forensic reconstructions of mummies, but I think it might be useful to include more background info on these images (and more) in a separate section on this aspect of Egyptology as it relates to Afrocentrism. Forensic reconstruction in the field of Egyptology is very controversial. Arab officials in Egypt -- who have spent considerable time, money and effort to de-Africanize ancient Egypt over the centuries -- have come out with their own forensic reconstructions. It could make for some interesting reading. deeceevoice 12:42, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Forensic reconstruction of mummified remains

message: Portrait of a young woman, A.D. 110–20   
Encaustic on wood; 43.7 x 34 cm (17 1/4 x 13 in.)   
Royal Museum of Scotland, National Museums of Scotland, Edinburgh"mummy portraits of presumably highly miscegenated Egyptian subjects of the Roman era nearly 1,500 years after Tutankhamun's death reflect overall a blacker, more Afro-Semitic-looking Egyptian populace than is represented by the latest reconstruction": I disagree. None of these look remotely black, and "Afro-Semitic" is not a very meaningful term; and while the eyes are certainly never hazel, the skin color is rarely much darker, and often lighter, than in the National Geographic reconstruction. - Mustafaa 22:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Short of doing a survey, I don't know what "most African-Americans" would say about the mummy portraits. I very much doubt you are right, though. In any case, Americans do not own the concept of "black" identity. Like, Mustafaa, I don't think the term Afro-Semitic actually means anything much. As for your fad theory, you've just made that up on zero evidence! Sure, there are fads in hairstyles, but I can't see much of a connection with the conquest of Egypt, which was in 30BC. The hairstyles represented in Flavian and Antonine art are over a century later. The fact remnains that elaboately curled and coiffured hair was a trend among the upper classes in the Roman empire. Most of the people represented in the mummy-portraits are fairly pale skinned. I have never heard anyone other than you claim they were black! Paul B 16:00 22 June 2005 (UTC)
I think I have a better idea than you about how African Americans view race. The majority of black folks in this country would look at those photos and see black people with nappy, frizzy hair. You've never heard anyone other than me claim they were Afro-Semitic/black? And how many black people have you shown the photos to? :p (A rhetorical question. I'm fairly the sure answer is, if any, damned few.) idea.) deeceevoice 18:17, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mummy portraits

message: The pic of the mask is deformed, I don't how, it could be photoshopped, taken too close, that's not the matter, the pic is deformed and I will replace, as for the sphinx, I can also post tons of pics at the beginning showing how ancient egyptians were not Black, but I consider this spamming, Just put the pic of your sphinx in the desired sub-article (Egypt and black identity), Everyone is biased, but please try to be neutral.--Agurzil 19:58, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: King Tut's death mask, etc.

message: Draw a plumb line from the bridge of the nose. In the classic Caucasoid phenotype, that line will be in alignment with the root of the nose (above the lip) and the root of the bottom lip, above the chin. In the classic "Negroid phenotype," there is a considerably forward-projecting profile. This is maxillary prognathism. In some Nilotic peoples, especially, there is often also an alveolar prognathism, which imparts a receding chin and, with the rather large front incisors of, again, certain Nilotic types (like Somalis, for instance) a bucktoothed appearance, as in link 30 above (see the photo of King Tut's mummy, lower left of the page). (The poor kid looks like a gerbil.) An aside. In other depictions of the king, he has rather prominent ears. Assuming he had the typical Nilotic body -- very slender arms and legs -- he probably looked rather gawkish; but did the bwoi have bling or what! :p deeceevoice 19:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Prognathism and Tut's noggin

message: I've deleted the following passage, pending clarification here in discussion:   
    
Afrocentrists also commonly claim that ancient coastal Northwest Africans (Libyans, Berbers, Moors, etc.) were racially black, explaining the light skin of modern Northwest Africans as the result of influxes of Vandals, Romans and Arabs. (A number of recent genetic studies have found that Northwest Africans have a predominant Neolithic ancestry [38] (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n2/41184/41184.text.html?erFrom=4317471345896084348Guest) and that recent historical invasions have had little impact; see Berber origins.)   
    
This seems to explicitly contradict the information provided in the link referenced. My understanding of the origin of the North African populations is black African mixed with Asiatics (Arabs) in an east-west migration, with some black infusion from the south (West Africa) and European lineages from Southern Europe. There is seemingly no indication that the so-called "Caucasoid Berbers" of North Africa are indigenous to the area at all. If I am mistaken, then please provide references. I repeat my earlier assertion that the original Berbers are black and East African. Again, if I am incorrect, please cite appropriate sources. deeceevoice 17:07, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I'm open to anything, even an idea as implausible on the face of it as black Egyptians consistently depicting themselves as reddish brown, if there's strong enough evidence. But the original topic at hand in this case was Berber origins. - Mustafaa 03:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Interesting. But, even if we grant that this reddish quality would not be shared by Nubians, I can't see how you would fit their standard depictions of women (typically light light yellow) into this theory. - Mustafaa 22:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Both the Tiye and Nefertiti busts are from the Akhenaten era, which, as you probably know, is very different from other eras of Egyptian art, and seems to have a whole different set of conventions. Of course women, like men, are commonly associated with spirituality; but that doesn't seem as convincing as the usual explanation, that (upper-class) women went outside less and so were less tanned (which is still true in Egypt, now I come to think of it.) - Mustafaa 22:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About Berber origins

message: "Pygmies are an unusually short people with reddish-brown skin [emphasis added]. Most adult Pygmies are from 4 feet to 4 feet 8 inches (120 to 142 centimeters) tall. About 150,000 Pygmies live in Africa, mainly in the tropical forests of the Congo River Basin in central Africa. Khoisan peoples include the San, or Bushmen, and the Khoikhoi, or Hottentots. Both groups have yellowish-brown skin and tightly coiled black hair. The San and various Khoikhoi groups once lived throughout much of the southern and eastern parts of Africa. Today, only about 50,000 San remain in Africa. They live in the Kalahari Desert of Botswana and Namibia. The only remaining Khoikhoi are the approximately 40,000 Nama people who live in Namibia."
Remember the link to Punt? Go back to it. Look carefully at the depiction of the queen with the Khoisan physique. Look at her right leg. It looks like she has a, shall we say, "third leg." Presumably, it is the elongated labia minora for which Khoisan women are known. What other plausible explanation is there? (Certainly, it is far more plausible than the ridiculous assumption that she had lipodystrophy.) The detail of ancient art is amazing -- if one simply knows how to look at it with a truly critical and informed eye. (The pronounced pronathism of the ancient Egyptians is one of the defining/most striking characteristics of much of their art, the Great Sphinx being no exception. It's where "walking like an Egyptian" got that business of jutting one's face forward -- mimicking cranial prognathism. 
    
White people tan, obviously, but they do not tan to deep reddish-brown. Black people do.  And pygmies aren't the only black folks with reddish-brown skin, either. I see it all the time in the summer among my friends. Old, countrified black folks, taking note of someone's reddish skin, would often remark, "She/he must have some Indian in her/him." Further, ask any black woman or makeup artist. The red undertones in black skin are the reason that, until relatively recently, makeup and hosiery produced by white companies for black people made us look grey/taupe -- there were no red undertones in either. It is also why, when black folks first started appearing on television, on-air black personalities used to (and still do sometimes) look weird on camera. Even though the basic color of the makeup they were wearing seemed to match, under the light of the cameras, part of them looked kind of ash-grey or mud-brown, when their natural skin had a warmer, redder cast. Happily, the cosmetics and hosiery industries caught on over time. Here's something from the web site of a painter: 
"Unlike African-American skin, which tends to be very reddish-brown [emphasis added], Middle Eastern skin is a balancing act between red-brown and yellow-brown...."
Another reference in the (racist) Encyclopaedia Britannica on "Negro": "The relation of the negroids of Africa to those of Asia (southern India and Malaysia) and Australasia cannot be discussed with profit, owing to lack of evidence.... It will be sufficient to say that the two groups have in common a number of well-defined characteristics of which the following are the chief: A dark skin, varying between reddish-brown, or chocolate to nearly black; dark, tightly curled hair, flat in transverse section, 1 of the 'woolly' or the 'frizzly' type; a greater or less tendency to prognathism; eyes dark brown with yellowish cornea; nose more or less broad and flat; and large teeth[emphasis added]...."[40] (http://www.criticalhistory.com/documents/document/Racism/1911encyclopediabritannica.pdf) Of course, the article goes on to speak of the "inferiority" of black folks to whites, etc., etc. -- the standard, white supremacist party line. :p
And you're right. The original topic of this section was Berbers, which is why I tried to end this particular discussion. When I said I was "done" with this, I wasn't referring to our exchange regarding Berbers. Unfortunately, I'm under rather tight time constraints at the moment and don't know when I'll get around to checking out the links you provided. (Thanks again. :) ) But I will. deeceevoice 11:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. But, even if we grant that this reddish quality would not be shared by Nubians, I can't see how you would fit their standard depictions of women (typically light light yellow) into this theory. - Mustafaa 22:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

text: Both the Tiye and Nefertiti busts are from the Akhenaten era, which, as you probably know, is very different from other eras of Egyptian art, and seems to have a whole different set of conventions. Of course women, like men, are commonly associated with spirituality; but that doesn't seem as convincing as the usual explanation, that (upper-class) women went outside less and so were less tanned (which is still true in Egypt, now I come to think of it.) - Mustafaa 22:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About black folks and reddish-brown skin:

message: There's a good article on Negritos to link to; if they are the people you're alluding to, they should be linked. (If not, then who are you referring to?) - Mustafaa 03:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Negritos

message: I think of Afrocentrism in ideological terms, while I think of Afrocentricity in more academic terms...so I created an entry for Afrocentricity. Asante never actually uses the term Afrocentrism....and perhaps with one exception (Maulana Karenga)...the only people using the term have been critics. Lefkowitz for example, never refers to Afrocentricity, only to Afrocentrism. What are the differences between the two? Karenga lays out the difference in his work INTRODUCTION TO BLACK STUDIES but I don't have it in front of me.... 
--Lester Spence 22:32, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afrocentrism vs. Afrocentricity 

message: User talk:68.253.220.41 just made a whole bunch of posts, deleting part of the talk page each time. They're all copies of online articles, so I've just reverted, but they can be read at:   
   
http://www.africanbynature.com    
http://www.africanbynature.com/eyes/openeyes_stilloutofafrica.html    
http://www.yayacanada.com/samdiary24.html    
http://www.world-crisis.com/analysis_comments/310_0_15_0_C32/    
- Mustafaa 01:58, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Anon posts

message: Removed -- again -- pending verification: "The common scholastic belief is, however, that the origin of the people of Ancient Egypt is more accurately described by study associated with the history of the Mediterranean region and Fertile Crescent. Thus...." 
  
It's always been my understanding that the prevailing viewpoint was that Egyptian civilization and these centers developed -- at least at some points in their history -- simultaneously and not as a result of them. I acknowledge that I could be mistaken; but, again, please provide substantiation of this contention and its wide acceptance before restoring the above passage to the text. The goal is to provide an article that is as factually correct as possible. deeceevoice 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I believe the prevailing belief is a combination of these - that Egyptian culture based itself on local roots dating to mid-Neolithic times, but underwent a period of significant Mesopotamian influence (including such elements as circular seals) right about 3000 BC, which played a role in inspiring the invention of their writing system, among other things. However, that says nothing about the origin of the people one way or the other. - Mustafaa 04:18, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: About the Mediterranean and the Fertile Crescent

message: This is the first time I've seen this happen. I'd restore the text, but I don't know how without having to go back and manually delete all the clutter that comes with cutting and pasting from a diff. Help, anybody? (This was the result of a system glitch and not an intentional edit. As you can see, my entry registered twice. When this usually happens, it results in a duplication of blocks of text in the body of an article -- not a complete blanking of the piece.) deeceevoice 14:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: System glitch blanked this page