Talk:Avigdor Miller

message: The Rav's legal name was Victor for those wondering.--רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 06:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Provide a source and put it in! JFW | T@lk 17:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was on his official letterhead. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 21:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's interesting, though I'm not sure it needs to be the first thing one sees on the sidebar- "Born: Victor". He was also "born" Avigdor, just his legal name was Victor. Hashomayim (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Legal Name

message: can somebody please work on this paragraph and place it in the article?
Rabbi Miller's view on food was different from that of other Rabbis. While other rabbis, using the Mussar approach, would consider the eating of foods such as pizza as a pleasurable activity which should be minimized, Rabbi Millers view was that such foods, having been created by God, should be eaten and enjoyed to the fullest, so that one should be able to give thanks to god for the delicious delicacies that he created. 14:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Provide a source and put it in! JFW | T@lk 17:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: See Rav Miller on Vanity of Food, Toras Avigdor - The Purpose of Food, Rav Miller on Jelly Doughnuts, Rav Miller on Learning from your Meals and Rav Miller on Onions and Potatoes. MSZW (talk) 08:12, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rav Millers view on food 

message: This is the most anemic collaboration! People - spew some text so I can copyedit it... I suck at actually writing articles, it appears... - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Find any odd obituary and work it into the article. JFW | T@lk 17:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anemic! 

message: Um, Nesh, are there any other quotes we could put in instead of wht you have there, something that is not so... gratuitously inflammatory, and perhaps more related to the subject at hand. Something Torah'dik, not political like that? - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmmmm... I see the problem. However, I didn't add the quotes, so I reckon they should be left for the moment until we find their source. Many thanks, Nesher 15:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's from Rav Avigdor Miller Speaks published by Artscroll. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 21:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sure it's real - but it's still inappropriate. - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  global warming quote 

message: Rabbi miller looked exteremly young even at a very old age, with a black-ish beard.... he slept on a wooden board at night?
16:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  slept on a board 

message: He is not notable for his work at that yeshiva, if he is popular its only for his tapes due to his lectures so this is the main lead not some small relative unnoticeable job he held for a few years in chaim berlin. which he was thrown out of and the head of that yeshiva did not even attend his funeral although he lives just a few blocks down--יודל 15:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's irrelevant. It's WP:OR to state that he gained world renown for haredi Jews.  Yossiea (talk) 15:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks I fixed that concern.--יודל 15:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Secondly, and totally irrelevant, he served for 20 years as Mashgiach. That's not some non-event. Yossiea (talk) 15:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is irrelevant because this job was not that big, he never spoke public speeches and never was considered a real mentor or rabbi there he was a plain door man to punish students who came late to Bais Hamedrash, when he tried influencing Yeshiva policy regarding science studioes they throw him out like a dog, and shamed him publicly by not attending his funeral which was the biggest mass of Jews assembled in modern history only third to rav feinstein and rav yoel titalbaum, thus making this job factor a non unimportant period which nobody is proud and tries to especially note, this is a unimportant detail in his overall noticeability factor so it does not belong in the lead section.--יודל 15:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry, i did not recognize that, i fixed it as well.--יודל 16:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I cannot disagree with u more, his claim to fame must be in the lead, and his job at chaim berlin should be deleted from the lead section. i will await third party opinion on this, since we have both expressed our opinion very clear.--יודל 18:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  His claim to fame is in the lead. It mentions his being an author and lecturer. Secondly, being a mashgiach for 20 years is a big chunk of change. something like that should certainly be in the lead.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yossiea (talk • contribs) 18:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  He was not the Mashgiach in the litvish sense of the word so this job wasn't that memorable, i don't believe it should be in the lead of his biography.--יודל 19:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  So now you're a baki in Litvisher yeshivas and their jobs? He was a mashgiach there for 20 years. That's a fact. 20 years is a good enough chunk to warrant a mention in the lead. Yossiea (talk) 19:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Listen Chelsea Massachusetts had tens of thousands of jewish famemlies it was not like IZAAK makes it as a smal town, also i did not say R' Miller was a nobody. thats what IZZAK says, i say he was an angel and the bigest jew america ever had, but he wasnt known and was never recognised, R' Hutner did saw in him the greatness and he hired him for that job. But the job has nothing to do with R' Milers greatness and therefore should not be part of the lead--יודל 12:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You stated that he was a rav in a town which at one point in time had the most Jews in America. That is false. Secondly, the fact remains that he was mashgiach for 20 years. That is notable enough to be in the lead. Yossiea (talk) 14:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  lead section 

message: Doing some research on this, even on Wikipedia, reveals how wrong and strange  edits are and how he will stop at nothing to twist the truth. 
User:Yidisheryid says that Rabbi Miller:
*"is not notable for his work at that yeshiva" (Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin) when in fact it was the head of that yeshiva, Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner (1906-1980) who plucked Rabbi Miller out of obscurity as a small town rabbi and set him up in the prestigious post of mashgiach ruchani of the yeshiva, a post which Rabbi Miller held for over twenty years and which launched his fame in the Haredi world.
*"he is popular its only for his tapes due to his lectures" -- how so?, when there is notability and popularity, and they are being confused here. Haredi rabbis are not into running "popularity" contests. What is important is if they held senior posts or were/are recognized as spiritual leaders via their influece and/or writings, which was the case with Rabbi Miller while he was mashgiach at Chaim Berlin.
*"some small relative unnoticeable job he held for a few years in chaim berlin" -- is a blatantly false assertion because the position was major, Rabbi Miller literally ruled the daily running of the yeshiva in his time, as was his mandate (while Rabbi Hutner, as rosh yeshiva focused on his select students and his famous ma'amarim.) There was a serious agreement between Rabbi Miller and Rabbi Hutner about a divison of duties, powers and responsibilities and Rabbi Miller held that very public job for over twenty years!
*"the head of that yeshiva did not even attend his funeral although he lives just a few blocks down" --huh? Which head? Rabbi Hutner died twenty one years before Rabbi Miller, so how does that add up? Pure slander. If what is meant is the next rosh yeshiva, Rabbi Aaron Schechter, then both he and Rabbi Yaakov Perlow (head of Agudath Israel) attended Rabbi Miller's funeral at his small shull on Ocean Parkway, Brooklyn. Rabbi Miller's oldest son-in-law has had an important teaching position in Chaim Berlin for over thirty years, and some of Rabbi Miller's grandchildren also attended the yeshiva. The other later rosh yeshiva, Rabbi Yonasan David (Rabbi Hutner's son-in-law) lives in Israel except for a few weeks per year. So User:Yidisheryid is concocting things in violation of WP:NOR.
*"he was a plain door man to punish students who came late to Bais Hamedrash" -- this statement is utter rubbish because as the mashgiach Rabbi Miller spoke privately or publicly to any student he wished about anything he chose to and he was very much a mentor and leader to all students during his tenure. He was appointed to supervise students (which is what the word "mashgiach" means: "supervisor"!) and not to "spoke public speeches" which was the job of the rosh yeshiva/s. Rabbi Miller did give select charburas ("group meetings") to students who wished to follow his ways even closer. He was an integral and major part of the yeshiva. Nobody threw anybody out like a dog. There was an amicable parting of the ways over other issues outside of the yeshiva, relating to Rabbinic politics (nobody knows for sure what the real issues were behind closed doors) which happend only when the yeshiva relocated to a different neighborhood in any case, but he was never thrown out or banned in any way. Some still read his books and preach his ideas there! He went back and was welcomed many times after he left to run his own community full time. Sheesh.
*"claim to fame" was fourfold: Mashgiach at Chaim Berlin Yeshiva, author of his unique books, recording and spreading of his tapes, and running his shull and community. He never attended conventions. And he disagreed with a number of the policies of Agudath Israel. In Satmar he is held in high regard by some, especially since Rabbi Miller was an early eloquent voice against the influences of Zionism. So those who wish, try to read his books. He was an "anti-Zionist" which is why some may like him. But Rabbi Miller's life and family had nothing to do with Satmar. Rabbi Miller came from a Jewish non-religious family as a boy in Baltimore. He went to YU, then to the Slabodka yeshiva in Lithuania. He married one of the Slabodka rabbi's (Rabbi Yaakov Moshe Lessin) daughters. Rabbi Lessin later worked for Yeshiva University, decidely not anti-Zionist. It was thanks to Rabbi Hutner only that Rabbi Miller was saved from the oblivion of being a totally unkown and unpopular small town rabbi in Chelsea, Massachusetts (he was fighting with his communuty, and it was they who wanted him out), and he was then miraculously catapulted overnight into a major position of the highest order and responsibilty in any yeshiva that of mashgiach ruchani based on what Rabbi Hutner had heard about him from people in Slabodka. Rabbi Hutner chose him because Rabbi Miller was first a great Torah scholar, and had "guts" with lots of personality and a way with words that they hit there target and he knew that Rabbi Miller would make a huge impact and impression on the yeshiva's student body, and so he did. And as is normal, the tenures of faculty come to an end and that allows others to be appointed. But it does not diminish or call for a demeaning of Rabbi Miller's record at, and contribution to, the Chaim Berlin yeshiva as mashgiach ruchani. 
*"He was not the Mashgiach in the litvish sense of the word so this job wasn't that memorable" -- is not true. While in Eastern Europe the role of mashigach ruchani was very powerful, sometimes more powerful than rosh yeshiva, and in America the rosh yeshivas have grown in influence. But that does not in any way diminish from the fact that being a mashgiach ruchani in one of the world's oldest and best known yeshivas is a very major and notable position and must be mentioned.   
So it's pretty obvious that User:Yidisheryid is very misguided about his edits. IZAK 22:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Listen Chelsea Massachusetts had tens of thousands of jewish famemlies it was not like IZAAK makes it as a smal town, also i did not say R' Miller was a nobody. thats what IZZAK says, i say he was an angel and the bigest jew america ever had, but he wasnt known and was never recognised, R' Hutner did saw in him the greatness and he hired him for that job. But the job has nothing to do with R' Milers greatness and therefore should not be part of the lead--יודל 12:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You stated that he was a rav in a town which at one point in time had the most Jews in America. That is false. Secondly, the fact remains that he was mashgiach for 20 years. That is notable enough to be in the lead. Yossiea (talk) 14:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rabbi Miller and Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin

message: YY, I just want to say thanks. It is because of people like you and Daniel and others like you that scare away editors with your pushing your POV across. You ruined this article with your edits. You have taken a pretty good article and just mangled it to no end with many nonsensical edits. You state on your page that English is not your mamme lushon, well can you please then leave the English wiki alone? I'm not saying this as an attack, but many of your edits make no sense. Yossiea (talk) 13:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your personal attack, i love it when u do nothing all day but running around deleting articles together with the other name yeshiva, keep on exposing yourself, to the point: i have added 16 important edits if u don't like it lets talk or if you find something improper in language just fix it and don't talk. good luck my friend.--יודל 14:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanks for Ruining the Article 

message: The category "Creationists" was added. There's a statement in the article to support it, and certainly he like essentially all Haredi rabbis would have been an opponent of evolution, but there needs to be some documentation that he was significant enough in this respect to warrant the category. DGG (talk)
: most of his work is indeed in this regard i will make in my business to reference his books, meanwhile i am busy getting the more basic biographical stuff in here as u can see. Also i don't know if he was original in those works but he surely helped further the creationist agenda between Jews through so many of his thousands of lectures in this regards he was unique then all other hareidi rabbis, who are shy from quoting evolutionists, he quoted them openly and frequently and tried to dispute their claims of evolution without a G-d.--יודל 19:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, from his works he seems more outspoken about it than other rabbis. --Eliyak T·C 17:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Category

message: The controversy section isn't entirely accurate. The sefer the information is from, I beleive, was written by others from his shiurim. I have heard the context for the first issue, which I hope to put up when i can find the exact source, and it's very different from how it sounds. --173.54.14.108 (talk) 22:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy

message: The "bibliography" section (should be called "list of works", in my opinion to have congruency with articles such as the one on Akiva Tatz) is missing the publication dates of several of Rav Miller's books.  If anyone can supply this information--would be appreciated.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.97.85.18 (talk) 23:22, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  list of works 

message: I am the executive director of Simchas Hachaim Publishing, the official publisher of Rabbi Miller's book and tapes, a division of Yeshiva Gedolah Bais Yisroel, under the direction of the Miller family.
I have no special interest in contributing to WikiPedia, however I have joined this wiki page for the sole purpose of providing accurate information about Rabbi Miller. 
Note that the following titles by B. Miller are unauthorized, and the author was forbidden by Bais Din from publishing or selling them:
"Thursday Nights with Rabbi Miller vol. 1 & 2" and "Rabbi Avigdor Miller conducts the Seder." I will not permit these to be added to the Bibliiography list (they were already removed once by Wikipedia staff, June 2013).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baisyisroel (talk • contribs) 15:14, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official Biography 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Avigdor Miller. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Avigdor Miller. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080506135036/http://www.jewishpress.com:80/displayContent_new.cfm?contentid=16510&mode=a&contentname=Rav_Avigdor_Miller:_The_Later_Years&recnum=4§ionid=14 to http://www.jewishpress.com/displayContent_new.cfm?contentid=16510&mode=a&contentname=Rav_Avigdor_Miller:_The_Later_Years&recnum=4§ionid=14
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article as it's stood for a while says "see also R' Samson Raphael Hirsch" at the bottom. Propose we delete that ... I'm not seeing a particular connection to RSRH; unless it's "for an example of an Orthodox rabbi with very different hashkafos ...". I don't know who exactly put that up when or why. Thoughts?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.109.24 (talk) 06:28, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "See also R' Hirsch" -- why? 

message: in Judaism it is very disrespectful to refer to a great rabbi like Rabbi Avigdor Miller as "Avigdor Miller". He should be referred to as "Rabbi Avigdor Miller" or as "Rav Avigdor Miller". Proposal to refer to him as such in the entire article. 67.81.163.55 (talk) 02:30, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing close to a consensus that he was a great rabbi; many consider him a despicable human being.  DemocraticLuntz (talk) 18:14, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless you care to source that negative characterization, I would suggest that you strike it, lest the WP community develops any concerns vis-à-vis your neutrality when editing this article. StonyBrook (talk) 22:10, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official title 

message: It is unusual - but in a good way, in my view, at least - to see "chavurah," rather than "chaburah," which has an entirely different meaning: a bruise or wound (e.g., Shemos 21:25). 
Thus, "chavurah," not "chaburah," in this meaning (company, association, party) is the grammatically correct form. 
But these days we almost always see "chaburah" even in this context. 
It is interesting to note that "chavurah" actually supports *both* meanings; see Yeshayahu 53:5. But if there is any evidence that that crossover goes also in the opposite direction, I am not aware of it. Toddcs (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joined a chavurah 

message: As a serious student of Rabbi Miller, I think it's a disgrace that the legacy/views section focuses purely on his most controversial opinions, as if this article is a tabloid. His most widely expressed, repeated and emphasized view was on the good in seeing and appreciating God in His creations, mainly nature. He circled back to this talking point hundreds of times throughout his lectures and books. Additionally, character improvement was a huge focus, including but not limited to kindness, awareness/love/awe of God, loving one's fellow, being aware of ones actions, peace in the home, finding good company, etc. Generally, in adding this to the article I'd just refer to religious character improvement, or something similar. These 2 views should be added to the article, I will work on an addition with sources etc. not-withstanding objections that may be made in the replies here. Additionally, in terms of legacy, the article leaves out a good portion of his legacy. Subject to objection, I will work on a mention of the weekly pamphlet with a dialogue compiled from his speeches e-mailed and distributed in print worldwide. The pamphlet itself claims over 50,000 prints are distributed weekly. Also, I would like to add mention to how his tapes are still widely listened to in modern audio form, subject to objection. All will be sourced, as per WP guidelines. I would also like to combine the two statements currently quoted on African Americans into one paragraph in the general format of 'Although he said "X", he also said "X", indicating 'X'.' JoeJShmo (talk) 01:11, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy/Views 

message: User:Nycarchitecture212 removed this paragraph:
:He criticized the Emancipation Proclamation, saying that it would have been better for African-Americans to have endured another 50 to 100 years of slavery in order to "civilize" them.
With the justification "He never said black people should be slaves it doesn't belong on this Wikipedia page. I checked the source and he was caricaturizing people who believe those things and in that quote was speaking against that. If you have a different reading of the work I'd love to see your sourcing please discuss on talk page".
Tablet Magazine is generally considered a reliable source, and it does say, to quote its exact words "...Avigdor Miller, who defended slavery as an ennobling institution that should not have been abolished...". It concerns me we are removing a claim cited to a reliable source, and the justification seems to be that an editor's assertion that the source is misrepresenting what Miller actually said. Can someone share Miller's exact words on this topic so everyone can see them for themselves whether or not Tablet is in fact misrepresenting them?
I can cite some other things Miller said on slavery, which many people would consider very offensive, TAPE # 606 (August 1986):
:Harriet Beecher Stowe – she’s famous for writing that big book called Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Uncle Tom’s Cabin caused the civil war in America. It inflamed the minds against slavery. It depicted the slaves as suffering terribly and there were masters who whipped and beat them; every kind of wickedness was performed by the white man on the poor black. And therefore, it caused a wave of anger against slavery and that’s why the Civil War took place and slavery was abolished then.
:But you must know, that book is full of lies from the beginning to the end.  You might not believe me.  I’m telling you – the slaves were happier in their slave cabins than the blacks are in Harlem in the ghettos where they live..
SomethingForDeletion (talk) 22:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, just to add one other point – the tape 606 I quoted, although it doesn't have the specific comment about the Emancipation Proclamation to which the Tablet refers, does argue that slavery benefited African-Americans by "civilising" them. Given Miller's belief that slavery benefited African-Americans in this way, the claim that he said that more slavery would have given them more of that benefit would be consistent with the rest of his beliefs. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 01:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emancipation Proclamation 

message: I don't understand why the portrait (which I understand Wikipedia is licensed to use) has been replaced by a picture of his grave. The standard for biographical articles is that the infobox contains a picture of a person, not a picture of their grave. While photographs are preferred to portraits, many articles do contain portraits (especially for historical figures who lived before photography). A photograph Wikipedia is licensed to use would be ideal, but in the absence of such a photograph, a portrait is still better than a grave image. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 01:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image