Talk:Metalcore/Archive 1

message: Who put "the worst of" metal and "the worst of" hardcore?  That's your opinion; this is an article.  Removed.
Metalcore is becoming the new Numetal. I like it, but you can't deny that.
Alright, I had nothing to do, so I completely overhauled this again. Feel free to keep your goddamned egos and scene points out of this. To be honest, I give this one week before someone fucks this article up again and gets it marked for POV and cleanup.
-- Escapeartist, the original author, 01:54, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Worst of?...

message: No. They're not. I'm led to believe that this little tidbit came from an unexperienced Wikipedian--incorrect hyperlink and no basic citations, along with incorrect formatting (hyperlinked) headlines.
Gorgoroth is a Black metal band. There's no "melodic" or "symphonic", they're just Black metal, and that's not even an opinion. Whoever said that they were using Metalcore influences obviously hasn't given them a listen. Even their newest album, Ad Majoram Sathanas Gloriam (newer albums usually condone 'softer' musical influences), is black metal. I removed that entire section. I have no evidence on "melodic metalcore", but I have a feeling that's a load of crap too. Mister Deranged 23:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gorgoroth is Metalcore?

message: My personal belief is that this section is messy. If we truly want to name bands that were punk that brought in a metal influence we at least need to name Discharge, Agnostic Front and the Cro-Mags. Bands like Biohazard and Madball definitely came later as they were prominent in the 90s rather than the 80s. As far as "metal" bands with punk influences we need Slayer and Anthrax besides DRI and Nuclear Assault. I have put this here for discussion first rather than mess with somebody elses edits. Any comments? Paul Tew 13:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Early Scene

message: June 13th
Which asshole deleted my section on metalcore song structure?
Its one thing to clean it up, modify it, or add to it, but some idiot deleted it.
------------
Ok, it's pretty much agreed that this article has become mess. I've cleaned up the article somewhat, by removing the several links to bands and lists, as they do not appear in the same fashion under other music genre articles. For "External links", please only add links concerning metalcore music, not to links to a band's website (which would only cause disputes and possibly misrepresentations).
Unfortunately, I cannot solve the NPOV dispute. I'll probably watch the page, but mainly for the way it's formatted rather than its content. I hope that someone edits this article fairly, but it cannot be done if people keep on yelling out obscenities instead of solving the dispute. But please, especially, stop the name calling. It takes the article nowhere.
SCooley138,
Please do NOT delete Talk comments. If you wish to archive the discussion, refer to Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page, but do not delete discussions. Even though it appears that you've been treated quite rudely, blaking pages just shows a lack of respect and it makes matters worse.
--Jivi 04:20, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing disputes

message: Wow! This article is a joke, right? It seems to be just a list of favorite bands for the last person who edited it.
"every now and then a band that isn't easy to peg even within these styles pops up, such as...The Blood Brothers...and...Neurosis"
OK... The Blood Brothers are screamo, which isn't even mentioned on this page, obviously because no one who knows enough has taken the time to make an edit. 
Actually the blood brothers aren't Screamo at all. I would say roots in it, but def. not screamo
And... Neurosis is mentioned as if they just recently showed up on the scene, never mind the fact that they are one of the biggest influences on so many of the ACTUAL early metalcore bands, like Converge and Coalesce.
And then... there are the extra cool people who feel the need to put in lesser known bands that they happen to like, but whom MOST people couldn't care less about. Well, some "lesser known acts" ARE pretty important
I won't even get started on the jackasses who keep deleting any and all Christian bands from the page, as if that disqualifies them from playing metalcore... oh wait, I did get started ;)
This article needs SERIOUS help.
Maybe I'll find the time to make it JUST SLIGHTYLY LESS BIASED!
Good plan! Sam Spade  23:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Really cool people have written and edited this article... 

message: Just look at the bands in the gothenscore section, most of them are defined by melodic death metal. 
We don't need 1 million genres like: londonmetal, parismetal, pragametal.
And I really don't see them relating to hardcore and henceforth metalcore.
--vininim 13:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  gothenscore == melodic death metal 

message: I'm sorry but I don't think anybody has pinned such a thing. Someone editing trying to create a name it seems for all the band's mixing the melodic Death/Thrash style (which has been called Gothenburg Sound, popularized by Swedish bands like At The Gates, In Flames and Dark Tranquility.) with Hardcore and in some instances Emo and even Gothic and Glam and straight Punk influences.
:That's pretty much a description of metalcore, at least as it is known today. Theunknown42 06:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gothencore? 

message: Why is this genre a hated genre?
For those of you who are as into music as I am, you should know that public media loves to take a spin on a subculture and slap a name on it to market it. All genres have fallen victim to this (Punk, Metal, Hardcore and all its of its prefixes...Metalcore, Grindcore, Mathcore, and even its whiny more popular younger siblings emo and screamo). Metalcore bands that are a "hit" today, were "Metalcore" before it was the next big thing in the underground. Bands such as Poison The Well, Eighteen Visions, Most Precious Blood and its earlier incarnation, Indecision come to mind not to mention others. They have been in existence since about 1997. There is a problem here and that is trying to stick an image with a genre. The idea of metalcore for the uneduated musical masses have been painted due to certain bands popularity such as Atreyu and Bleeding Through. All black down to the clothes they wear, the color of their hair, and even the eyeliner. To me this is what makes the genre look bad. The mall image. Things that are sold in Hot Topic to sell a music genre in form of a clothing style. Now one may ask, what about Eighteen Visions? Don't they do the same thing as the two aformentioned bands? Well the answer is a little difficult to come up with. If we can look atthe history of this band lets recall what lead vocalist James Hart did for a living. He was a hair stylist. So this is understandable as to why he looks like he stepped out of a hair salon all of the time. The man knows his hair. Keep in mind, the band doesnt always dress up. There have been performaces that I have caught where it looked as if the band just stepped out of their bus unshowered and not really taking an interest in how they looked. They just looked like twenty somethings wearing whatever. This is my defense of Eighteen Visions. But I digress from my point, these bands did not choose to be called metalcore. In fact, if you asked them, the would simply say that they are a hardcore band. It seems as if metal purists think they are trying to snake their way into their holier than thou genre. Don't flatter yourslef guys, they best described their music as hardcore and the hardcore underground embraced it. Blame that on record labels. Back to my Eighteen Visions example, the fashioncore labeling is a disgrace to music. The origins of fashioncore are simple. Since Eighteen Visions enjoyed dressing up for their shows, the merch guys as a joke put "fashioncore" on the back of one of their t-shrits for sale. Well, the prhase caught popularity and then became a way to describe a band on how they dress. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, wether it is pro or anti metalcore but take into effect of the wide range musicianship that is there. Metalcore guitarists can play with the technicality of metal guitarists and with the breakdowns, the simplicity of a hardcore punk song. It is a solid musical genre but unfortunately the bands that existed before the turn of the millenium, are the better ones of the genre. What I really hope to accomplish is to find out why the genre is hated from the standpoint of a metal purist.
As a metal purist, I'd have to say its because Metalcore has people thinking its Metal when its barely similar to Alternative Metal, let alone True Metal.  When I say True Metal I mean NWOHBM, Speed Metal, Thrash Metal, Death Metal, Black Metal, Power Metal, etc. Its just so far removed from what Metal is all about yet it claims to be Metal.  Not the bands necessarily, though I bet some do, but the media definitely does.  I'm angry enough that nu-metal or post-grunge bands are labeled Metal.  I personally am not fond of the genre, its far too simplistic for me.  To me, it seems they took the poor vocals of Hardcore and the midtempo of Heavy Metal and made a genre that is just too lazy to be either.  Its sort of the opposite of Thrash Metal, which to me took the speed and lyrical ideologues of hardcore and melded them into a new Metal form back in the early 80's.  Metalcore is closer to Nirvana than Slayer or Black Flag.  Oh, and the whole mallcore thing is just sad, stepping away from the music a bit.  Besides some factions in Black Metal, Metal is all about a simple style of dress, one which is pretty much impossible to commercialize.  My friend just reminded me of another issue.  The more Metalcore and other psuedo-Metal bands which spring up means yet another True Metal band that isn't.  Metalcore should be the Metal audience, but isn't for reasons I don't get. marnues 06:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What makes Death Metal anymore metal than the stuff that came via Agnostic Front as both scenes brought something new to the table? If metal had stayed static at MWOBHM (itself different to Black Sabbath) then we would have a dead musical genre. Pantera obviously had hardcore influences (from Phil) and nobody would deny that they are metal. You also forget that bands such as Motley Crue were considered metal in the 80's but now are considered rock because Metal got heavier. Bands like Anthrax and Slayer both have early hardcore influences and nobody in their right mind would question whether they were metal. Ultimately the name means that it is crossover music, but its actually closer to metal since AF went in a metal direction as the riffs got heavier and they lost the rawness. And how exactly is Killswitch Engage like Nirvana? Paul Tew 12:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Many metal purists become very upset at the idea of overt commercialization of their music, and while I might agree not all metalcore bands are commercial (necessarily) or fashion-based, I find myself hard pressed to find bands that aren't. And metal purists are always, always, anti-MTV to some extent (myself included). Most metalheads I hear from seem to see it as that the "hardcore" bands have a far stronger punk influence than a metal influence. I will say for the record, being a purist, seeing the scene kids at school absolutely pisses me off (I'm down in Georgia, the only metal the average guy can find is whats on MTV, and I think there's only one other guy who's even heard of venom. Hope to get down to Florida, all the bands down here SUCK!:().Having everyone think of that as metal, and knowing that very few of the kids that listen to it will find Atheist, Death, or Necrophagist through it is sad. Though, perhaps we owe it something, as we can distinguish posers from the true(IMHO) bands, and keep our music to ourselves. And imagine what great metal all that hatred will produce! Anyway, wanted to shed some light on the subject, nobody take offense to my statements, please. 72.195.182.192 02:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Friends and Enemies of Metalcore 

message: Very small profile on google, is swede-core article OK as is, better merged with this one (with redirect) or deleted Paul foord 10:49, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swede-core 

message: I created a Metalcore template. 
I have some questions and uncertainties about items. 
Do people prefer the heavy metal & hardcore punk templates as at present or would it be better to have a specific metalcore template? Paul foord 13:24, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: i say go with the individual template. i think having a massive template that doens't actually relate specifically to the article it's on is bad enough, but two at the same time?! --MilkMiruku 01:13, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metalcore template 

message: Time signatures such as 4/4 indicate rhythmic accents, not tempo.  Both "Everday" by Yo La Tengo (glacial) and "Rise Above" by Black Flag (fast) are in 4/4 time.  It's ridiculous to say that breakdowns "slow down" to 4/4 time.  Just saying "slow down" is fine.
:sorted :) --MilkMiruku 01:13, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breakdowns 

message: Nuclear Assault were added to the text. They have an article - says they are thrash metal - so are they metalcore? Paul foord 07:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nuclear Assault were a mixture of hardcore and metal in the sense it had the speed of hardcore but with metal riffs, and Metalcore has the riffs of modern metal but with hardcore shouted vocals. Hence both share the same loose influences - its really for historical purposes rather than saying NA are metalcore Paul Tew 12:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nuclear Assault 

message: The last paragraph of the Later Scene section seems unfair. I vouch for a lather, rinse, and repeat.
70.135.2.100 18:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased 

message: "Contemporary metalcore scenes are notorious for immature social hierarchies, the promotion of violence, and the organization of its members into gangs typically known as "crews." Metalcore fashion is not dissimilar to that of "hipster" or "indie" college students, replete with tight shirts with band logos on them, tight jeans, and highly stylized hair. Tattoos, piercings, and an extreme devotion to the music also characterize the scene. Of course, these are just some common stereotypes of the scene."
How the hell is that able to be in a Wiki entry? Christ...
Secondly, Gothencore? Swedecore? I've never even fucking heard of these terms.--Nightside eclipse 21:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What are you guys on? 

message: The whole section on metalcore bands re-cycling riffs is a joke. Who ever edited that is just an idiot looking for a chance to talk crap about a few bands they don't like but look slightly intelligent because it's on wikipedia. The whole Arch Enemy/Trivium drum intro sums it up really. Obviously they're so busy making sure the world know they don't like metalcore that they've failed to notice bands such as Behemoth blatanly ripping off Anthrax and the millions of non-metalcore bands who sat down taking notes while listening to Reign In Blood. Learn to write in a non-bias fashion and create and argument rather than just declaring "metalcore does this" or "metalcore ripped off that".
:I agree. I'm gonna go ahead and delete that section. 68.4.212.158 06:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  So stupidly bias 

message: Since Post-Hardcore is being used to describe lots of so-called emo bands, there is no reason to have that on the page. In what way does As I Lay Dying sound like Taking Back Sunday? We already have an article for ones that do infuse emo into their sound, emotional metalcore.Theunknown42 21:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NOT Post-Hardcore 

message: "Contemporary metalcore scenes are notorious for social hierarchies, the promotion of violence, and the organization of its members into gangs typically known as "crews." Metalcore fashion is not dissimilar to that of "hipster" or "indie" college students, replete with tight shirts with band logos on them, tight jeans, and highly stylized hair. Tattoos, piercings, and an extreme devotion to the music also characterize the scene. Of course, these are just some common stereotypes."
Are you freaking kidding? I'm removing it unless someone can come up with a source that is not their ass.
===I agree===
metalcore kids are losers, they don't fight or create "crews"... hardcore kids do that stuff cause they fuckin rule --151.199.195.65 15:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ridiculous

message: metalcore kids are losers, they don't fight or create "crews"... hardcore kids do that stuff cause they fuckin rule --151.199.195.65 15:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I agree

message: I know this just adds to the already overcrowded subgenre, but shouldn't melodic metalcore bands like .hopesfall. and 7a7p be worthy of mentioning as a distinct subgenre of music?
:I agree that there should be an entry about melodic metalcore, as there are quite a few bands that use melodic harmony in their choruses and in their music in general, bands such as Unearth, STEMM, Demon Hunter, Hopesfall, Underoath, Killswitch Engage (with Howard Jones and all the melodic guitar work they do)...the list goes on.  I do think that it should be mentioned in some facet, as it is notable, maybe not to a huge extent, but it is there. -- Shatterzer0 20:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How is KsE more influenced by Post-Hardcore than Metal? Haven't you ever listened to In Flames? They have melodic choruses just like them. Sion 03:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  you right... its influenced by both but their music don't get that heavy to be considered as melodic deathcore/metalcore whatever... my point isn't the genere of KsE is bout the name of the subgenere  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sheish (talk • contribs). 
Im trying desperately to get the swedecore article userfied (Hope Tony Sidaway userfys it for me) so I can expand it and recreate it as melodic metalcore (because, lets face it, melodic metalcore and swedecore are the same thing - a melodeath/metalcore fusion, and melodic metalcore is the only metalcore subgenre w/out an article). Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 00:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melodic Metalcore 

message: Ok, I am gonna do you all a favor and over the next few months talk to some of my metalhead freinds about metalcore (these guys know some obscure stuff so I trust their input somewhat), and do some independant research on metalcore and probably buy a few more metalcore albums than the few I have. I will then do my best to rewrite the joke that is this article. The grammer is horrid, it is clearly biased towards a POV, it sounds in many cases like a 5 year old wrote it, and the information is either misleading or blatantly incorrect. I don't know much about the history and development of metalcore, but I do know how to define the genre, and for Suicidal Tendencies to end up anywhere at all in this article is inane, since they are a crossover/hardcore/funkcore band and didn't even so much as influence metalcore in more than a slight peripheral way. In my mind, metalcore is sort of a hybrid between death/thrash/grind instrumentation, with a sort of hardcore emphasis on speed and raw sound, occasional emo influence, and screaming vocals that were slowly but surely derived from the New York hardcore's heavier vocalism. Breakdowns are heavily prominent in the music, gothic music styles are a heavy influence, drums put more emphasis on hitting the foot pedals at high speeds and drums are often relatively complex. Metalcore is more simplistic than other genres of metal, but still more complex than Nu Metal and hardcore. From the best of my knowledge, unlike thrash metal, metalcore bands started out as punk bands taking metal influence, while thrash bands started out as metal bands taking punk influence. With crossover thrash it was a very deliberate blending of thrash metal which was already 1/3 punk with hardcore punk, to create something that was about 3/5 punk. With metalcore, the early stuff was about 1/2 punk, 1/2 metal but as it started to develop its own scene it became 1/5 punk 3/5 metal with about a 1/5 blending with various other genres.
Anyway, like I said, I am gonna try to learn about this genre so I can clean it up a bit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.191.82.172 (talk) 16:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Asking metalheads about metalcore is like asking punks about death metal. Not a good idea. And I have a feeling you know little about the early metalcore scene, since you think metalcore is, "a hybrid between death/thrash/grind instrumentation...hardcore emphasis on speed and raw sound..occasional emo influence." 68.47.13.243 22:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DEAR CHRIST THIS ARTICLE'S  A MESS! 

message: Groove Metal (post-thrash) definitely had a huge influence on certain elements of metalcore, namely syncopated breakdowns. Shouldn't it be included in metalcore's stylistic origins? --Zepboyo 23:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Groove Metal Influence? 

message: "Nuclear Assault was the second, the first being Van Halen in 1978, to call their music a heavy metal/hardcore punk hybrid, though still thought of as a metal band by most."
Van Halen sounds nothing like a hybrid of 'hardcore punk and heavy metal' nor have I ever heard of them referring to themselves as such. This comment is pointless and any influence Van Halen had on metalcore is negligible. I'd like to see a source for this comment, otherwise I'm removing it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.191.81.29 (talk) 18:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Van Halen... 

message: why the "key bands" are changed? i think that the former key bands were more appropriate...who the fuck are judge and overcast?
You're editing the metalcore article, but don't know who Judge and Overcast are? You need to do some research on early significant metalcore.Docbp87 20:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  why? 

message: Who put ♥♣♦♠xxx♥♣♦♠ at the end of the first paragraph of the second section? Removed. Also, I really don't see how the hell Metalcore should be included in the Punk Music WikiProject. If metal stemmed from hardcore I could see how it would be appropriate but that's not even close to true. Yes, hardcore stemmed from punk (or IS punk as some people say) but metal never came from either of them. Metal started in a completely different place at a completely different time with completely different bands. Menthol Cigarettes 15:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it wasn't for hardcore we might no have metalcore, we might not have thrash either or at least it would sound a lot lot different.--Fukhed666 09:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gibberish...or whatever you want to call it and genre confusion 

message: Since I notice this gets changed left and right, I figure we might as well open the floor here for key artists, like people who pioneered the genre etc.  Just a thought... -- Shatterzer0 07:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, now that we've gotten rid of the section, I think we should keep it that way.  I was trying to maintain the section but found it to be near-impossible because we can't reach agreement on who should be on it, who is important, or half the time whether a certain band is even "metalcore" (because of all the moronic genre purists who inevitably get involved with any online music discussion).  Most other music style articles don't have a list of key artists and we shouldn't either.  If a band is mentioned in the article text itself, that should be sufficient.--Velvet elvis81 18:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Key Artists. 

message: Put the list of Metalcore bands back on this page!
It was the only thing helpfull about this messed up car wreck of an article.
Put them back up.
Do it.
Agreed, bring back the list, the only thing people come to this article for.BinoChrist 01:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List Of Metalcore Bands 

message: Why does NWOAHM redirect to metalcore?  Are they the same? Because I didn't think so. I'd call LOG or Machine Head NWOAHM but I would never call them metalcore. I don't know, I've always understood them as very different... Discuss...--Fukhed666 09:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: BDM is a straight-up Gothenburg metal band with a bit of death metal, KsE is metalcore.  Ours18 03:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  N.W.O.A.H.M.C?. 

message: i find this term a bit redundant. most modern metalcore is derived from melodic death metal... so wouldnt it just be an evolution of metalcore i.e. a stylistic change. not a completely new subgenre. can anyone name me a modern metalcore band that plays more with more roots from thrash metal than from melodeath?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panasonicyouth99 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Melodic Metalcore? 

message: Im done! Melodic metalcore is back! 55 cites, and 5 different cited sources! Im very happy! Now every metalcore subgenre has its own article! Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 02:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Got it! 

message: Which genre appeared first?How can someone call throwdown metalcore when he does the same for bullet for my valentine?  Anchell 21:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metallic Hardcore VS Mellodic Metalcore 

message: I do not happen to like the genre of metalcore at all. HOWEVER, I am also well aware that there is no such genre as melodic metalcore.  That is purely ridiculous.  Metalcore by definition is melodic.  There is no such genre as melodic metalcore.  It's like me saying "I like ninja metal."  No such genre.  I am not being biased, even if I don't like metalcore I can put that aside, but melodic metalcore is not a real genre. Navnløs 18:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: THIS IS RIDICULOUS

message: ok, i found some metalcore subgenres, so here they are.
Blackened Metalcore, Melodic Metalcore, Mathcore, Moshcore, Deathcore, Emocore, Christian Metalcore, Post-Metalcore, Thrashcore, and Extreme Metalcore  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.59.72 (talk) 02:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All those genres are supercillious as metalcore has not eveolved enough to have sub genres really.  Christian ANYTHING isn't a genre, just lyrical content. Post-metalcore is ridiculous as metalcore is already a "post" genre pretty much. All the other genres are just gay and mostly nonexistent.  There is no research done, anyways, you people need to cite sites where you get this ridiculous information. I may not like this genre but it DOES exist and I will read about it if you cite a reasonable website. Navnløs (talk) 03:43, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metalcore Subgenres 

message: I put the sign for controversy here, because metalcore has often been degraded and the article vandalized by some of the extreme metal fans. If you wish to remove it, do so and leave a reason for removing it under this topic. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 21:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversial Topic?

message: Why did someone add this? It's stupid and non exsistent. Thundermaster367 12:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Electronic Core 

message: Why does this article not make a mention of the later metalcore scene?  Trivium, Killswitch, As I Lay Dying... NONE OF THEM ARE MENTIONED IN THIS ARCTICLE!!!  Why not?  Geez...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.101.156.35 (talk) 00:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is entirely because no one really contributed that much to the article and the genre is extremely controversial... I suggest an "expert" on the subject clear things up and dim down the controversy, but those are hard to find it seems or they ran away from major edit wars. Thats maybe why metalcore looks like this now because "it used to be Earth but now it's Mars." Going to add that tag to see if anything can be resolved. --CircafuciX (talk) 03:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Later Scene 

message: There are absolutely no sources...If no one submits a source soon, I am going to completely rewrite this whole article with proper citation. I will give you all some time before that, but it better get done.--Wick3dd (talk) 20:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is one of the biggest jokes on Wikipedia