Talk:Permadeath

message: Permadeath is, among gamers and non-gamers alike, not nearly as unpopular as pedophilia. It's insulting and unfair to gamers to say that they are as repulsed by permadeath as they are by pedophilia. The comparison is exaggerated, ridiculous and not suitable for an encyclopedia article. 
Worse, Permadeath is increasingly used as a mechanic in games which emphasize short, brutal play sessions, such as Spelunky and DayZ. Assuming gamers don't want to take the opinion that pedophilia isn't so bad when it is performed well, the opinion holds even less water than it did when it was written. 
Richard Bartle's larger point is that Permadeath in multiplayer invokes an immediate and negative reaction, which may be true, but the comparison remains massively exaggerated. The statement began as a ridiculous opinion and is now an embarrassing opinion. 
I recommend either removing the sentence, or replacing the comparison to pedophilia with a more direct statement along the lines, "discussion of multiplayer permadeath generally invokes immediate, hard-line negative reaction from gamers." Finding a different source may be necessary.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.49.93.2 (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think the point is that the response goes beyond a simple negative reaction, and this comparison allows non-gamers to understand the depth of the reaction. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:02, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  If that really is the depth of the reaction, gamers could stand to have some perspective. Like I said, "Richard Bartle's larger point is that Permadeath in multiplayer invokes an immediate and negative reaction, which may be true, but the comparison remains massively exaggerated." The only way that this comparison isn't exaggerated is if gamers have a remarkable tolerance for child abuse, and I think of gamers as better than that. 208.49.93.2 (talk) 23:19, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

text: (Linked from WT:WPVG) Without looking into it deeply, it doesn't seem like a significant qualified statement. If the given quote is the only mention of this, then it's kind of WP:OR to suggest out of context that a question by itself is the same as expressing the comparison, even if meant that way. I expect the surrounding context to matter and I would expect the source to actually compare, otherwise we're not really saying anything just by stating that comparison was made. That said, here's a source that actually comments on this quote. For example, "most people who hear the idea are horrified that it should even be suggested" would be a much better quote to signify what is meant without ambiguous or implied meaning. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 18:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, that seems like a good solution. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:11, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I support the idea of changing the pedophilia quote with Engadget "horrified" description. It describes the reaction well. It's a bit odd, however, that the first section of the article describes permadeath in multiplayer games, where the mechanic is unpopular, before describing the mechanic in the context of singleplayer games, where the concept originates from. ~Mable (chat) 15:14, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I removed the comparison between pedophilia and permadeath from the article text, but I kept the original citation and the quotation inside it.  If this is still contentious, feel free to remove the original citation.  As far re-ordering the article to put single-player first, that sounds fine to me, but I didn't want to make too many changes at once while we're still discussing this stuff. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:23, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good, nice job :) ~Mable (chat) 05:19, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison of pedophilia and permadeath unneeded opinion and frankly weird. 

message: Permadeath is mode of game not a type of game. This mode is implemented in various types of game, from cRPG fo FPP, more wide last time, but mainly implemented in cRPG games. Extremely type of this mode is perma-permadeath, where is concept to permanent block of game like in One Life.
Second thing is that encyclopaedic term should be PermaDeath not Permanent Death, as it is known and life as the main term, not permanent death which should be translation of this term.
Pls express your opinion for correction the article--Darek555 (talk) 15:32, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not even sure what "mode of game" means.  It's gameplay mechanic.  It might be a special mode offered to players (such as hardcore mode in Diablo II), or it might be the only option in the game (such as NetHack).  But I don't think "mode of game" really makes sense. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:44, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: thinking is no argument...Darek555 (talk) 17:26, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systematization of notion and terms - Permadeath is mode of game not a type of game 

message: One I want say roguelike game are similar to old games the 70's-80's. Gameplay of this game is based only on session, with no-save option because of technology limitations. Today some ones want continue this tradition in Roguleike games. But this game are not permadeath, becouse of characteristics, gameplay of this games are based on one session, it must be ended sooner or later and does not have to explicit the end due possibility dependetion only on a result or score. This is another mechanics like today's permadeath, important is that a progress could be fast repeat, not with all games but it could be .--Darek555 (talk) 12:43, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fairly well-sourced that Roguelike games pioneered this gameplay. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I want to stress that roguelikes are cemented on using permadeath as  core, defining feature, but I would be careful to say that the concept of permadeath was pioneered by roguelikes. It's a bit different than saying that roguelikes created the concept. --MASEM (t) 18:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rogulike games are no-save game or session game they don't introduced permadeath, over-interpretation 

message: should be included in article as section ?
Because of different types of game which implement permadeath mode. Different implementation could be in cRPG games and different in FPP shooters where character could be killed by opponent decision or not. And the status of items are important to, could be deleted with character or leave for new character.--Darek555 (talk) 18:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types of permadeath mode section 

message: It is not a secret that this article is in need of clean-up. My idea of getting rid of excessive examples would entail deleting over half of the article, which I will do right now. I already know this kind of edit won't go over easily, though. I think this way, the article is better, but not exactly cleaned up. I currently don't have an in-depth knowledge of the sources or even the intended article structure. If anyone has any thoughts on this edit, be sure to weigh in :) ~Mable (chat) 08:21, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  On getting rid of the example farm 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Permadeath. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.zenofdesign.com/2005/04/12/please-not-the-permadeath-debate-again/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 00:11, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: NetHack is certainly one of the most infamous permadeath games, due to both its longevity and difficulty.  However, does an image of the "do you want your possessions identified" prompt really add anything to this article?  If we're going to have a screen capture from NetHack, why not the tombstone?  Or is there an even better graphic we could add? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:09, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the image doesn't actually show the death. We can still keep it, but we could have a better one, like the aforementioned tombstone. —  HELLKNOWZ   ▎TALK 15:15, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  NetHack image 

message: I have played Diablo / II / III, Torchlight / II, Grim Dawn and am familiar with the term "Hardcore" at character creation to enable permadeath. Very recently I have become aware of "Iron man" being used as an alias for hardcore. Is there a particular time frame when this trend began? Is the "iron man" alias specific to certain genres and/or publishers? Did they adopt the new term to avoid the negative connotations of the term hardcore (eg, they don't want to discourage casual players from buying the game)? Are there any other (minority or emerging) aliases? Ten minutes on my favourite web search engine hasn't turned up answers so if anyone knows (or has better luck with their specific personalised search results), I think this information would make a valuable section on this article. 49.180.147.105 (talk) 02:48, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth, my understanding (among many) for early Diable II play was that Iron Man play conventions was to simply never use any town services that weren't plot/quest gateways: buy nothing, sell nothing, repair nothing, upgrade nothing that couldn't be done in the field, etc. This could be combined with "hardcore" (whether enforced by the game or simply by starting over instead of resurrecting), but wasn't dependent on it or interchangable with it as terminology. Hellsop (talk) 22:08, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hardcore or Iron man 

message: Pac-Man you start with 3 lives and you can get more after scoring 10k points. How is that permadeath in the same way that it is in later games? That would make games like Super Mario Bros. a permadeath game because you have to start over from the beginning after losing all your lives, unless you cheat by inputting a code. Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA) does not have any code and has only 2 continues, and losing enough times brings you all the way back to the beginning of the game. So where do we draw the line if Pac-Man is considered one of these games?
17.235.103.103 (talk) 00:36, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, first, the article has been tagged for a complete rewrite.  Second, Pac Man not really cited as a permadeath game but as an example of an arcade game.  The point is that arcade games have a similar mechanic. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:31, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pac-Man permadeath? 

message: After several years of nobody attempting the rewrite suggested by the cleanup tag, I'm going to try to at least improve the article a bit.  I don't know how well this will be received, but I'm going to reduce the number of shout-outs to individual games.  Maybe it's just me, but I find that shoehorning random examples into an encyclopedia article just makes the article more confusing.  When people rattle off the names of a dozen video games that I've never played, and they give no context for why they're in the article, it does not help me understand the concept any better.  If there's a reason to mention a video game by name, that's fine.  Rogue, for example, went on to become the most prominent example of permadeath and influenced how it is implemented in countless games.  But what about Moria?  NetHack?  Angband?  We don't need to individually list every roguelike that implemented permadeath; we can just say "and virtually all roguelikes have implemented permadeath", as the article does now.  Once you add Moria, some NetHack fan is going to say, "You forgot NetHack!" and add it.  Then an Angband fan is going to say, "If you mention Moria and NetHack, you definitely have to mention Angband!"  It just never ends, and then you get a massive example farm.  I also moved the Dungeons & Dragons stuff up top because that was the inspiration for how early CRPGs implemented their death mechanics.  The rest of that "in other games" section was mostly redundant to the stuff about arcade games. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:23, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: As a comment, I think you may want to rework the first part of the single-player experience. While arcade games are "permadeath" by definition, they were not really designed around permadeath as a gameplay feature compared to roguelikes and games since, if that makes sense. That is, permadeath was only a concept once the idea that you could save your game came about, as the idea worked against the notion of game saving. (But to that end, I agree with putting the D&D RPGs ahead of this since this is where saving makes sense). --Masem (t) 02:52, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would probably agree except for the prevalence of sources that mention arcade games.  Then I started to think that it gives a nice bit of history, which was missing from the article.  I don't think I did a particularly good job, but I tried to give an idea of where permadeath came from and why it eventually became niche.  One could potentially say something like "Permadeath was initially an unintended consequence that came from technical limitations in arcade games", but some of the sources consider Pac-Man and other arcade games to be legitimate examples. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:49, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: There is only one mention of Dungeons & Dragons, and that it inspired other games. There should be more information about table-top RPGs like D&D. Steinm07 (talk) 11:51, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  D&D