Talk:Southern American English/Archive 1

message: Angr, if you're reading this: you added Mary to the merry-marry section. Is this something you know for certain? I was pretty sure that the typical Southern pattern was to merge two but keep the other distinct, not to maintain a three-way distinction. AJD 17:36, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: merry-marry

message: In re: the edit by 64.16.181.63, who wrote:
I have never heard "we'uns" in my life except out of northern people that want to make fun of southern people that use "you'uns" in their speech. As a southern speaker, I find this quite offensive.
* I too am a native southern speaker, and, having lived in and around the Ozark mountains for some time, I have heard people say "we'uns" (pr. closer to "weens"). I'm sorry that you found this offensive, but it is a vaild change in the language that has been verified by linguists, not all of whom are "northern people" of a perjorative bent. Notcarlos 14:21, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For what it's worth, I've lived in the South (Gulf coast) all my life and I have never heard anything-uns.  I don't think Ozarks/Appalachian dialects are typical for the South.  --Mauvila 23:23, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  You'uns et al. 

message: Drowneded? I've lived in several parts of the south and never heard this word, which an anon added to the word use section. I'm deleting it unless there's concensous to keep it. Sayeth 02:41, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
I've heard it used by many Southerners for the past tense/participle of drown. I'm putting it back where it was, Smith
Ever Heard Bob Dylan's song "When the Ship comes in?"(c1963)
"Then they'll raise their hands,
Sayin' we'll meet all your demands,
But we'll shout from the bow your days are numbered.
And like Pharaoh's tribe,
They'll be drownded in the tide,
And like Goliath, they'll be conquered."
Frazzled 15:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Word use 

message: I've disovered (at least in "rural" lake county, FL), that "y'all" is Singular!. It's "all y'alls" or "alls y'alls" for the plural. For example, you go into an Apopka restaurant, and the server will ask "Has alls y'alls decided whatcha fixin' ta eat?" Swirsky 14:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: y'all

message: In Tidewater Virginia, where I grew up, one of the dialect markers is something similar to Canadian raising.  My wife, a New Englander, used to hear my parents' "about" as "aboot".  I'm not a linguist, and know little about documented studies of American accents, so I'm reluctant to add this to the article (plus, it may be a regional distinction that's dying out).  Do any Wikipedians with more linguistic training know anything about this Virginia "ou"? —Josiah Rowe 16:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tidewater Virginia "ou" 

message: Southern American English to Southern Drawl. The Southern Drawl is the more common name for the dialect, so the article should be moved there. Robot32 23:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~
*Oppose. "Southern drawl" is a vague, somewhat disparaging name for one aspect of Southern American English. --Angr (t·c) 23:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually, it's used mostly by non-linguists to describe a single aspect of SAE. --Angr (t·c) 07:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: "The Southern Appalachian dialect is, among all the dialects of American English, the one most closely related to the Scots dialect of English (see Scots language, Ulster Scots language)." It doesn't sound very Scots. Any sources to back up this tenuous claim?
No, there's no evidence of this.  I compared some Scottish Gaelic phrases to Appalachian English phrases just as a reference point in the entry I wrote for Appalachian English, but this should not be taken as proof that there is any similarity.  The Scots who moved to Appalachia were mainly from the Lowlands, and thus were monolingual English speakers, not Gaelic speakers.  I think the Gaelic speakers retreated into the Highlands of Scotland. 63.23.9.77 03:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southern Appalachian 

message: Shouldn't this be Southern United States English? Southern American implies South America. It's actually southern only in the context of the United States. Ken 23:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the English of South America would be South American English. Since the large majority of English speakers in the Americas are in North America, one can use Southern to mean the southern portion of the English-speaking region. AEuSoes1 23:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with AEuSoes1. In addition, changing the article to Southern United States English would mean using a term no no one uses or would recognize.--Alabamaboy 00:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with Ken in this one.Cameron Nedland 23:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The adjectival form of South America is simply South American, hence, Southern American references to the Southern parts of America, implicitly the United States given that the southern tips of the Americas speak Spanish. Besides, Southern American English is the standard linguistics term used in academic papers and critical studies on the topic, and since the role of Wikipedia is to describe not prescribe, the title should thus remain Southern American English. Matthew Stuckwisch 07:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Matthew Stuckwisch. To use any other name would be original research, which is not allowed here.--Alabamaboy 16:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agree with Matthew. Angr (talk) 16:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You only say it is the standard linguistics term because the United States' population are the ones who write it. I think it is derogatory to suggest that american is just the United States - I agree with Ken that this should be southern united states english or something along those lines. Hombre Equis 15:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No. To call it that would be inaccurate because 1) That implies literature from South America and 2) Southern literature is what the genre is called by all acceptable academic and literary sources. Best, --Alabamaboy 16:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems inaccurate because most academics would call literature from South/Central America South American literature (with further subsets by country), Central American literature, Mexican literature, etc.  I mean, being an American from the Southern USA (North Carolina) I understand it perfectly, but it still seems a bit too ethnocentric because this "title" could apply to the Southern part of just about any country -- yet it is reserved exclusively for the American South?  Why?  This topic would perhaps be better called Literature of the American South or Literature of the Southern United States but these may both be a bit unwieldy, especially for a Wikipedia page title.  Therefore, it seems best to shoot for Southern-American literature. --205.188.117.6 07:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW -- I just saw (on the Southern literature page) that the Southern dialect is found on the page entitled "Southern American English" -- this seems to reiterate my point that this page should be promptly re-named Southern-American literature (plus or minus the hyphen) to make it clearer for readers and especially to help avoid confusion with international readers who don't know Charleston from Kalamazoo. --205.188.117.6 07:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southern ''United States'' English 

message: The word "reckon" which is often used in the South in the place of the words "think", "suppose", or "guess" needs to be mentioned in this article. An example of "reckon's" usage: "I reckon I'd better stop speeding, or I might get pulled over."
:Suprisingly (to me at least) Australians use this very often.  As a Midwesterner, I think of the South every time.  I guess I am in South Australia.  Hmm...  --Xyzzyva 11:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reckon

message: The main difference in dialects of Southern American English would be Geography. The Inland-Southern accents are very similar and can't really be distinguished from. Most of North-central GA,AL,MS, North LA, Central to Southern ARK, East and parts of North Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, and the piedmonts of SC and NC. All have the typical Southern Accent we think of or that hollywood galmourized. Also noted Some parts of North Florida have similar accents among local residents as well as secluded parts of Southern GA and AL. The coastal dialect is probally the older dialect deriving from the colonial settlers rather than Scotch-Irish and working-class English immigrants. This dialect usually is spoken in the higher classes of southern society a great example of this would be in the Atlanta area; in blue collar communities the thicker inland accent is common but in the city among the distinguished residents the old coastal dialect is heard resembling the plantation society of the lowlands. Done, fixin, ain't, "cain't", boy, folks, are commonly used in the inlands. Also African-American vernacular had a large influence on this accent as well due to the closeness with the poor whites of the south as they share cropped side by side, several pronunciations and words were exchanged. Other dialects can be categorized as Southern American English as well for example: Southern Illinios, Extreme Southern Missouri, and well into Indiana accents are very similar to those of the south. The explanation of this is in Indiana and in Southern Illinios is due to the migration of a substantial amount of poor whites to the area from MS, TN, AL, KY, and to a smaller part Georgia and Arkansas. However in Missouri it was probally derived from the area. These accents are NOT RELATED TO ANY PART OF THE MIDWEST FROM LINGUISTICAL RESEARCH. The Texas accent is somewhat of a blend. Texas was settled by settlers from the State of Georgia ( included MS and AL at the time) and the Tennessee frontier. when opened to settlement by the spanish. As immigrants from Germanic and Slavic languages settled into central Texas the dialects began to blend. Then the promise of Texas success to Americans in the North brang the third influence. But the strong majority which is present in speech comes from the original settlers of Texas.
The accents how ever are not from celtic origins and have no relations to the language of Gaelic, But are rather close to Old English. Due to cultural and settlement influences from Germanic tribes of the Isles of Britian. Many typical Germanic pronunciations were dropped with other influences.
A question about the Texas accent: I grew up in Houston, and then moved to the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I've noticed a few differences in vocabulary. For instance, the way Houstonians pronounce the name of their own city. You could easily tell who was a native or not by the way they pronounced Houston with a "y" sound instead of the "h" sound. A slight blur between an "e" and "o" follows it up. Texas, or Houston at least, was also gaining a strong influence from Mexican-Spanish, mostly in vocabulary. Going out into the country a bit more, a slight Germanic influence is there, mostly due to the large amount of Czech settlers. My grandparents, and others their age, don't have what I'd considered even a slight Southeran American-English accent or vocabulary. Certainly a more older version of the current Texan way of speak though. Honestly, the typical Southeran American English, from any region, sounds nearly foreign to me, in the same way that accents from New York or California do. Is the Texas accent/vocabulary within a few decades of becoming its own dialect? - VirgilOrion
:I don't know what research has been done into the question, but I do know there's not just one Texas accent. By my observation (I grew up in Austin), East Texas has a much more typical "Southern accent" than West Texas, and English-speakers in South Texas usually speak fairly "standard" General American. Angr (talk • contribs) 06:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accents 

message: Many people believe that a dialect close to that of Elizabethan English is spoken in remote parts of the Appalachians.  The idea has currency because it is attractive and compelling. It demonstrates a yearning for a sense of historical longevity within a young country; it lends comfort to those who wish to emphasise the Anglo-Saxon nature of America's cultural origins in the face of its ethnic diversity; it confirms the "backwoods" stereotype. However, it is merely a cultural myth; there is no linguistc evidence to support it. This myth has spread through the writings of jounalists rather than the writings of the well-informed. It should not be perpetuated in this article.
^Show evidence supporting your case or you'll just continue to be ignored. There's plenty of evidence supporting a conection between Elizabethan English and the English spoken in the Appalachians. It's just that Elizabethan English had numerous dialects (Hiberno-English is very much an Elizabethan dialect), just as PDE has numerous dialects. Furthermore, language is an organic thing. Certainly, the Appalachian dialect may not be exactly what the first settlers spoke, but that doesn't mean it's grown far apart. If all you're going off of is books you've read, in their original form, from the 15-1600's then you're an idiot. It's a known fact that what was written was not what was spoken and that we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke.
^Do I need to point out that it shouldn't be up to me to provide evidence to support a negative. On the other hand, anyone who espouses this theory had better come up with something compelling, hadn't they? The trouble is, nobody has. It is not just a lack of empirical linguistic evidence that stands in the way of this theory; it just doesn't hold water. Firstly, no Elizabethan settlement survived in North America. Jamestown, Virginia (the first permanent colony) was formed under the reign of James I. Furthermore, Europeans have populated the southern mountains for only about 200 years, so how did they manage to preserve their "Elizabethan" (or should that be "Jacobean") dialect during the intervening 200 years? Secondly, exactly what counts as speaking "Elizabethan"? If you go to England and visit the county of South Yorkshire, you will find that the inhabitants use the archaic pronouns "thee" and "thou". Why doesn't anyone accuse them of having preserved "Elizabethan" English? The answer is because archaic speech is not unusual. Archaisms are used throughout the English speaking world: they do not constitute evidence that a dialect has been preserved in any special way.  It is claimed that the Appalachian dialect has been preserved by the isolation of its speakers, but no one could claim that South Yorkshire towns like Sheffield or Barnsley are isolated places. If Appalachian speech does contain archaisms, what makes it more "Elizabethan" than the multitude of other dialects which use lexical items or grammatical patterns that were also around back then? Finally, if "we're still not completely sure of how Elizabethan speakers poke (sic)" then how can anyone assert that modern people speak like them? That is illogical, Captain! I'm afraid that written texts are all we have as evidence for Elizabethan speech. What else do you propose we use as evidence? Sir Walter Ralegh's ipod?
:I have heard this popular myth many times.  Elizabethan English is a colloquial term for Early Modern English, the formal term (I just changed the link).  Elizabethan or Early Modern English is not limited to the English spoken during the lifetime of QEI or Shakespeare.  I agree, however, that the entire premise seems illogical.  EME is usually cited as ending around 1650; permanent English settlers first arrived in the Americas in 1607.  However, generally people cite not only vocabulary but pronunciation. 
:Luckily, we do have Sir Walter Raleigh's iPod to . . . no, wait.  We have other linguistic evidence.  For example, we know about the Great Vowel Shift--a major change in pronunciation in the 16th century.  Despite all that, I agree that the assertion is specious (or at least unverified) and should probably be removed unless we can find and cite a reliable source for the rumor. JordeeBec 22:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elizabethan English in the Appalachians 

message: I recently saw my addition Inversion of indefinite pronouns: "everwhere", "everwhat", etc., in place of "wherever", "whatever" in word use was removed by a random IPer for being "a joke".  I'm sorry, has he or she ever been in the South?  This is still said with relative frequency and mentioned in many conference proceedings I've been to on linguistics.
:Can you provide a link to source so that other people can verify it? Angr (t • c) 07:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's listed in most major dictionaries as a SAE dialect word.  See .  I'd cite the conference proceedings, but I didn't exactly record them :) Matthew Stuckwisch 09:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inversion a joke addition.  Huh? 

message: I have not read the 1860 consensus, but I can certainly tell you that the South is very much an Anglo-Saxon area. Sure, it wasn't solely settled by English from the West Midlands, but it is not primarily Celtic, nor is the West Midlands a Celtic region. The stupidty would be excusable except that this is a text that is otherwise very professional and Wikipedia is itself a credible on-line source. The South is AngloSaxon. If you want to contend that there's a strong Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scot (that is not the same as "Irish") influence then o.k., but those really aren't a truly Celtic people, either. Well, whatever, I fixed it, but from now on may we keep to fact and not to peronal musings.
:No, you didn't "fix it". You changed someone else's sourced statement to your own unsourced personal musings. The previous version had a link to source the claim "three-quarters of white Southerners had surnames that were Scottish, Irish or Welsh in origin" (namely http://www.americasvoices.org/archives2003/AdamsJ/AdamsJ_061403.htm), but unfortunately the link doesn't work any more (at least not for me right now). Now it's up to you to provide sources for the claims "The South known for being largely settled by English from the West Midlands" and "Settlement was also made by peoples from other parts of the Brisith isles, particularly by Protestants from Ulster; however, their influence on SAE was limited." Angr (t • c) 05:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Settlement 

message: Where I live in coastal Mississippi, it's common especially for older people to pronounce the "s" at the end of the word tastes, so that it sounds more like "taste-is". An example would be "This tea tastes good". Has anyone else heard it pronounced this way in another part of this South? Would this use be appropriate to add onto this entry?  CJ
:Only if you can cite a reliable source where it's discussed. Personal observations are considered original research and can't be included. Angr (t • c) 07:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In western and central NC, I've heard some (very few) people use "costs" this way.  "It cost-es a whole lot."  But I wouldn't say that's an overwhelmingly common thing. Dubc0724 12:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tastes pronounced "Taste-is"

message: In my opinion, this article should cite literary examples from famous works written in a Southern dialect for examples of speech. Many writers write in a very phonetic fashion when a character is speaking in Southern, and accurately shows the manner of speach. One obvious example of a source to quote from would be Faulker's works, but there are plenty of other good sources for this as well. Also, this has the additional benefit of being a reliable source, making the need for citing additional references unneeded. --SeizureDog 01:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs more famous examples

message: I rephrased the following from Different Southern American English dialects/Midland & Highland/South Midland or Highland Southern (it was the last phrase of the first paragraph):
:Original and has retained a number of elements of Early Modern English (the language spoken by Shakespeare)
:Rephrased The dialect is said to retain some features of Early Modern or Shakespearean English which General American English has lost. 
If someone would like to change this back, please include references to scholarly, peer-reviewed works which back up this claim and/or provide specific examples.  Here are my references for changing it:
*Linguistic Society of America See the paragraph under Language Variation.
*Ohio University See Myth #9.  While these authors conclude the myth is harmless, it doesn't mean we should perpetuate it.
*Language Log Blog at U Penn (#1): As she states, Standard English has also preserved a number of features of Shakespearean English--we just don't notice them because they're standard.  It's hardly notable that SAE may have retained a few other features--especially if we leave the vague claim at that.
*Language Log Blog at U Penn (#2).  See for yourself.  I'm from NC and my mother's family hearkens from WVa--and I can't understand a word of the first recording of an authentic Shakespearean pronunciation.  This page also gives an explanation as to how they've determined what the authentic pronunciation is.
Basically, I see the point of the myth as pointing out that this dialect of SAE has evolved in a way that is slightly different from General American English over the last few centuries.  But to point out that it retains features of EME is to imply that Standard American English does not retain any of its features.  Simply put, Standard American English and Southern American English have both retained a number of elements of EME--many of these elements are the same, a few are not.
If someone would like to fix the weasel words or simply remove the sentence altogether, be my guest! JordeeBec 19:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Modern (Elizabethan) English Myth removed 

message: If the Philadelphia accent is really close to New Jersey / New York as stated by the wiki link, then surely Baltimore natives do not speak it.  (I'm a native.)  Wikiwikiwikiwikiwikiwiki 16:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baltimorese 

message: I'm from Kentucky. GangstaEB~(penguin logs) 00:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm an expert 

message: I understand that the Word Usage section has a disclaimer stating that many of these phrases aren't sourced, but I think that the exclusion of those items needing citation should seriously be considered until sources are verified.  I was born and raised on the Mississippi Coast, have many relatives across the Southeast and in Texas, and currently attend school at the University of Mississippi, which has a notable variety of SAE dialects from across the SAE spoken region.  Those being my only credentials, I couldn't swallow this section.  The phrases mentioned in this section are NOT in widespread usage among all dialects of SAE, and many of them could/should be considered part of Older SAE, associated by many my age with rural dialects and more importantly with the elderly.
I can imagine that some of these phrases and word usages may have survived in different regions, but it has to be at varying degrees.  For example- I have never used the words "yonder," "reckon" or "young'un"; used the words "carry" or "tote" in the manner suggested in the article; the phrases "to tump over" or "to chuck"; the "wasn't"/"doesn't" forms "wudn't"/"dudn't"; or the use of singular nouns as if they were plural.  These are associated with older generations and rural speech patterns.  But I have used the word "buggy" for "push-cart," which is something that many speakers of SAE do not say anymore, especially in urban areas.  The word "mash" is also not used, as far as I am aware, simply as a substitute for "press" or "push" but as a word of emphasis more likened to "excessive force" as in "I mashed my finger with the hammer."
My proposition is that even if there are cited, reliable sources for these word phrases, that it be considered an objective to research where these are used more frequently as it can be argued their usage as a whole is not characteristic of SAE, but more probable only regional sub-dialects within SAE.  And that even such sources as Harvard Dialect Survey do not take into account the differences between Older and Newer SAE but are general questions that relate the answers given to the specific areas where the questions were asked, not the actual dialect spoken which can be diverse depending on where one grew up and where one now resides.  (If this is an incorrect analysis, I truly am sorry, but it's what I can gather from the reference site provided.)
I am not an expert in this field, so I can only offer observable data to discuss, and would be very interested to see why an expert would disagree.  I was just genuinely shocked that such words considered "Old South" by younger generations would be bundled up with more contemporary SAE usage without distinction.
Also, the usage of "mosquito hawk" and "snake doctor" do not refer to "dragonfly" and "crane fly" interchangeably with anyone I have met, and the article suggests- perhaps because of word placement- that it can be.  However, I wouldn't doubt that it does in some areas.  I understand that this isn't reliable sourcing but original research, but the common use of "mosquito hawk" only refers to "crane flys" and a "snake doctor" is a "dragonfly" as far as I'm aware.207.68.251.25 21:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliability of Word Usage Section 

message: Please do not contibute original research (i.e. one's own thoughts or ideas) to Wikipedia (especially to linguistics articles).  Doing so is against Wikipedia policy (WP:NOR).  
Aside from that fact, just "living in an area" for a long time does not make one an expert on dialect(s).  There are too many variables to consider (including the influence of mass media, popular culture, and the 20th Century advent of easily-accessible rapid transit).  Unless you are trained and educated in the subject of linguistics, your unqualified opinions may serve to only add confusion to an already complex subject.  "I've never heard..." or "I've always heard..." does not cut it.
If you do have contributions to make, please make sure they are referenced.  ++ Arx Fortis 07:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: No Original Research, Please

message: Umm I don't know if any of these map makers have ever been to Western Kentucky it's undoubtibly the most Southern area of the states yet it's not shaded on this map. Also people consider Southern Illinois Southern in Dialect, yet the area below the mason dixon line isn't shaded Southern???? can some one say FLAW
:The map is based on information in The Atlas of North American English by William Labov and his colleagues (). The map only shows one aspect of Southern speech, however, namely the monophthongization of the vowel of "price" to something like "prahs". If you have more accurate published information from a reliable source, feel free to update the map. —Angr 21:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The map

message: Do linguists use the term "Southern American English"?  I tried doing some google research on this before and I remember that I found that there were only a few linguists who used that term.  Even if the term is legit (and I'd like to see some proof that it is), I don't think the article should use the abbreviation "SAE", because isn't that customarily used to stand for "Standard American English"?  And what is this older/newer "SAE" distinction?  Where does that come from?  It seems to be entirely original research. schi talk 00:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ANAE just calls it "Southern", but of course we can't call the article Southern because it would be too ambiguous. I can't think of anything else to call it but the Southern dialect of American English, which probably doesn't get boatloads of googlehits either. —Angr 06:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology

message: Over the next day or so I will be reasearching the assertions made in the Word Use section.  Those for which a reference can be found will be moved above the "unsourcedsect" tag. ++ Arx Fortis 01:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Word use 

message: Here is another map that is better than the one that is currently on the site.  It too is based on Labov's work.  It shows the totality of what he and his team at UPenn consider "Southern English," not just one dialectal trait. It is similiar to the map on the page, but includes a few more areas. I don't know how to make Wiki-maps but I will work on learning how, if anyone wants to try their hand at it instead, here it is.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsS/Map1S.html
Here is the page the map is from http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html
Lasersnake 19:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: One possibility is to include multiple aspects of Southern speech (see the map at Northern cities vowel shift) rather than just one.  I believe Angr is the most qualified to make such a map.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, well, but I'm the one who made the map these people are complaining about... —Angr 23:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right.  You got us in this problem and you're getting us out of it.  Seriously though, as good an idea as it is, a map including other aspects of southern speech may still not satisfy people since the area covered in the monophthongization map covers pretty much all the other aspects anyway.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know. That's why Labov et al. use the monophthongization isogloss alone in their definition of Southern. I should point out that they have no specific information about southern Oklahoma at all; their only data from Oklahoma is from Tulsa and OK City and shows no diphthongization at all. Southern OK is only colored because it's geometrically convenient when Springfield, Little Rock, and Amarillo all have to be included in Southern. I could do what I eventually did with , and just show dots to indicate cities where monophthongization is attested rather than implying that large areas have it when actually there's no evidence for them one way or the other. —Angr 23:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Ehh, the CCM dot format may be accurate but it's not as... expressive.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I based my map on one in the print version of the ANAE. The isogloss on that map is rather further south than in the one you linked to, but the point I was trying to make above is that these isoglosses are not exact. The ANAE (both the print version and the web edition) is based on a telephone survey conducted with urban speakers only. The data collected shows ay-monophthongization in Charleston, Roanoke, Richmond, and Norfolk, but not in Clarksburg, DC, or Baltimore. It provides no information at all about northeastern WV or southern MD! You can't take the isoglosses on either my map or the one you linked to so seriously. —Angr 20:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Huh??? This article had one map from April to October and then the current map since October. That doesn't sound like constant map-changing to me. —Angr 22:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Better Map 

message: Why is Florida not included? Rhythmnation2004 21:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd imagine because Florida speech isn't southern even if Florida itself is.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 03:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Florida? 

message: The name Southern American English indicated it was English from South America which is wrong, hence the change. Please dont revert to a title as ambiguous as it was, SqueakBox 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that would be "South American English". Southern American English is unambiguous, correct, and has consensus as the most common name of the dialect. Please don't move the article to anything else. —Angr 22:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: See /Archive 1#Southern United States English for previous discussion of this issue. —Angr 22:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I only used admin rollback on the redirects, to save time. I didn't use it to move the article back to this name. Adding an NPOV tag as if the content of the article were under dispute, rather than the use of the word "American", is disingenuous. While it's clear that Latin Americans object to the use of the word "American" to mean "of the United States", the fact is that in English it's the primary meaning of it. (Hence, while Mexicans and Argentinians may consider themselves americanos, English-speaking Canadians most certainly do not consider themselves "Americans".) Since this is the English-language Wikipedia, the fact that the Spanish word americano means something different (I'd go so far as to say Spanish americano and English American are false friends) is irrelevant. —Angr 23:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see how it is unambiguous. As Angr said, "South American English" would be ambiguous, as would something like "Southern English". But "Southern American" is not the English adjective for things from or dealing with South America; the adjectival form of "South America" is instead "South American". In the term "Southern American", the only possible analysis is that "Southern" is an adjective modifying "American"--i.e., something from or dealing with the southern part of America (and Angr is right when he says that "America" is more or less synonymous with "the United States" in English, as far as I know). My question for you would be, for which native speakers of English is "America" not generally a synonym for "the United States"? I'm not aware of any. --Miskwito 23:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: (Edit conflict) American doesn't mean "from the United States" only within the U.S., though. Canadians, Australians, and Brits all use "American" to mean "from the U.S.". There is no significant ambiguity to the word except when comparing its primary English meaning to its primary Spanish meaning. —Angr 23:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The title. Its ambiguous and doesnt make a lot of senmse and thatr needs tagging. As there is a dispute re the title the npov tag seems the best one, SqueakBox 01:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll need to find an outside source that uses "Southern United States English."  All the ones I've seen say "American."  Changing it, as the mentioned in the previous discussion, would be original research.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 03:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, SqueakBox, this name is a compromise. In the literature, the dialect in question is uniformly called simply "Southern". But since it's obviously out of the question for us to name this article Southern, we compromise by adding American English to it. —Angr 05:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: My concern is not with non-native speakers, it is with non-American but native speakers of English. The fact that Southern America redirects to South America tends to contradict what you say, SqueakBox 16:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also this relevant article Americas (terminology) doesnt back up what is beinmg said here, SqueakBox 16:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It doesn't? What's Southern English English about then? In John C. Wells's The Accents of English he divides his discussion of English English up into "RP revisited", "London", "The south", and "The north", so he apparently considers "the south" to be an identifiable dialect region of England. —Angr 18:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that this Wikipedia:Attribution doesnt back up your assertion. All material needs attributiong not merely making changes, SqueakBox 18:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I regret that I mentioned the South America vs. Southern America analogy, it was a bad analogy and has lead us astray.  What Angr pointed out is real issue here,  the page is about a dialect of American English known as Southern American English, it is NOT about a region called Southern America.  If the page was about Southern America than your point about citation would be valid, but lets please move past this confusion and address the real issue.Here is a citation from a public broadcast special that refers to the English of the U.S. as American English http://www.pbs.org/speak/ Notice that this webpage is based on the work of several linguistsHere are some articles that refer to the subdialect in question as Southern American Englishhttp://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/southern/sounds/http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/american_speech/v079/79.2clopper.htmlBrown, Vivian. 1990. The social and linguistic history of a merger: /i/ and /e/ before nasals in Southern American English. Texas A & M University dissertation (sorry not online)Please review them at your leisure.  Hopefully this will suffice to prove that we are not all making this up.  I encourage you to provide citations of your own that would indicate a more suitable title for this article.Lasersnake 18:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, and as I mentioned above..."South American" is the correct adjectival form of "South America" in English, not "Southern American", so as you say, Lasersnake, "Southern American English" can really only refer to the English of the South of America [=The U.S.]. Also, if you think "Southern American English" is ambiguous, Squeakbox, surely "Southern English" would be far far more ambiguous? --Miskwito 17:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Per prior discussion (see archive link above), I agree with Angr's comments about listing specific people in the article.  None of these people have any citations next to their names.  I don't see how including them, short of an acceptable reference, could be anything but original research.  (Some of the names have been removed several times, only to make their way back onto the page.)  Thus, I have removed the entire list.  If anyone cares to research and cite references for "well known" individuals, feel free.  ++Arx Fortis 18:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Well known people" 

message: There's nothing on the Texas accent in all of Wikipedia. Rick Perry is crying tears of blood.
:It's about time he did! The Texas accent falls under South Midland and the Gulf dialects, I believe. Though, despite the fact that I live here, I don't really know... --Miskwito 23:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Labov et al (2006), most of Texas falls in the South dialect region, but without the diphthongization of /oh/. AJD 23:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I recall from my days living in Texas, there isn't a Texas accent. East Texas is considerably twangier than West Texas, and in South Texas (where the predominant language was traditionally Spanish) the Anglos have basically General American pronunciation with Texas usage (y'all, might could), while the Chicanos whose native language is English have an accent all their own. —Angr 05:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That might be true of Oklahoma, but Kansans think of Texan as a very different accent.  I'm not saying anything bad, it's just that we don't sound the same.Cameron Nedland 13:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is very true.  Speaking as a native Texan (no pun intended) who has spent a lot of time in Kansas, IMHO the accents are nothing alike.  Reflecting settlement patterns, Texas speech is Southern American, while Kansas is definitely not. As concerns Oklahoma, it seems to me that folks in southern and eastern Oklahoma sound more like Texans, while those north of Oklahoma city and west of Tulsa sound more "midwestern."  Also, other than the small part of eastern New Mexico sometimes called "Little Texas", the dialects of that state and Arizona are different as well.  TexasReb 16:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Several distinct Texas accents are recognized by dialect coaches. West Texas is different from East Texas, for example.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 22:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is very true as well.  Again reflecting settlement patterns, East Texas (particularly among older residents) tends to have more of that softer drawl of the Gulf or Deep South, whereas West Texans usually have a "twangier" quality that more resembles the Upper or Mountain South (especially parts of Tennessee).  TexasReb 13:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: And I respect your opinion in turn.  I am not unfamiliar with Oklahoma myself, in fact I live only some 20 minutes from the Red River border in North Texas.  And I would never dispute anyone's "Southerness."  However, in my own travels through the state, I stand by my opinion that, dialect wise, people in southern and eastern Oklahoma tend to talk more like people from Texas and Arkansas, while those closer to Kansas sound more midwestern, and many dialect maps indicate this.  That is not intended to be disparaging, just my own take on it.  Note also that I did not call Oklahoma a midwestern state, but am only making reference to accents.  In fact, in my opinion Oklahoma is much more Southern than not.  If you are interested, and haven't seen it, you might check out the "Archive 1" on the "Southern United States" discussion board.  The topic of Oklahoma and its Southern status is discussed quite a bit.  On a lighter note, I too am Southern Baptist, so can tell this little joke:  Buddists don't recognize the authority of the Pope. Jews don't recognize the authority of the New Testament.  And Southern Baptists don't recognize each other in liquor stores!  :-) TexasReb 15:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Texas Accent? 

message: Relating to the above discussion, I've always heard "mosquito hawk" used to mean crane fly. On the subject of animal and plant names, "raccoon perch" is a yellow perch, "spread-adder" is a hognose snake, "yellow cat" is a flathead catfish or yellow bullhead, "devil's brush" is thistle.  
Also, the saying "The devil is beating his wife" refers to sunshowers.  
Perhaps the article needs a section on these nature terms?  (These are a few of the terms I have heard used.  There are many more.) I can only source "spread-adder" and "yellow cat" but I'm sure others can find the other terms.
Vultur 23:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect this varies a lot within SAE as well, but if you can find sources that's great. Where do you live, out of curiosity? --Miskwito 08:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There definetly needs to be a section on nature terms...and its not "The devil is beating his wife", it's "Da devil's beatin 'is wife" where I'm from. Solar Sunstorm  21:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I grew up in Eastern Virginia calling hog-nosed snakes puff adders.  I once observed to a Norfolk taxi driver that the devil was beating his wife, and he replied, "Yeah, if you stick a pin in the ground you can hear it."Jdcrutch 22:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nature vocabulary 

message: I don't want to disrespect the hard work someone obviously put into this article. In my very, very humble opinion, it seems that this page is dedicated more to an upscale southern accent, like you might find in Savannah or in some older southerners. Dropped R's and genteel Y's and mint jeeeuuulups at the ke-un-tuckeh deh-by and the like. Am I reading the phonetic spellings wrong? Or is anyone making a distinction between that accent, and the one we're actually using down south? --Spesek 15:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article does try to distinguish between "Older SAE" and "Younger SAE", as well as between varieties spoken in different parts of the South. The coastal South, for example, was traditionally non-rhotic, though that's recessive now, while the inland South never was. —Angr 16:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well I Never! 

message: Hi, can you cite academic sources for calling southern accents and regionalisms "dialects"?  Cantonese and Mandarin are dialects (same language, but not mutually comprehensible).  I don't believe mainstream Southern American English differs significantly enough from Midwest or Western American English to constitute a dialect.  The tone of this article suggests Missourians and Illnois people speak separate dialects on the grounds that Missourians call fizzy drink "pop" while the Illinois folks call it "soda."  I don't know the proper linguistic term, but "regionalism" seems more correct than a full blown dialect.  WikiPicky 02:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you have it backwards. Cantonese and Mandarin are actually different languages, only popularly called "dialects" because the relationship between the different Chinese languages is confusing to English-speakers for some reason. Dialects are different versions of the same language that are mututally comprehensible but belong to different geographical areas and differ systematically in phonology, grammar, and word choice. By the way, it's pop in Chicago and soda in St. Louis. AJD 03:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mandarin and Chinese are not the typical examples for how far mutual intelligibility goes before different dialects are deemed different languages (Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, are extremes in the opposite fashion).  The area can get pretty fuzzy at some points but calling Southern a "dialect" is noncontroversial and you can look at any of the sources at the bottom of the page.  Also, see language-dialect aphorism. Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 08:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi AJD, I'm from Missouri and we call it pop.  Or maybe that's my Kansas City "dialect"....  I went to highschool east of St Louis in Illinois, where "soda" was the normal word and "pop" confused people.  Or, maybe it's Saint Louis that is the "soda" place and Kansas City and Chicago belong to the Slavo-Germanic "pop" speaking cultural group...  I'm waiting for the Wikipedia article...  WikiPicky 02:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, St. Louis is a "soda" city and Kansas City and Chicago are both "pop". There is a Wikipedia article: Soft drink naming conventions. I'd also refer you to [this nifty map http://popvssoda.com:2998/countystats/total-county.html]. AJD 15:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: In Harrisburg, Pennsylvania we called it "soda," but when I went to school in Pittsburgh — just 200 miles to the west in the same state — it was "pop." I've now lived in Georgia for almost ten years and I'm still not used to "cocola". PurpleChez 22:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Southern truly a dialect? 

message: I've been in Georgia for almost ten years...long enough that I generally don't notice the accent anymore. There are just a few specific places where it stands out, and I'd be interested in seeing those discussed. One is the conversion of "v" to "m" (sorry, I don't know how to use the phonetic alphabet), such as when "seven" becomes "semm". The other is when certain words are suddenly articulated almost like a violent sneeze. The example that comes to mind is a coworker talking...nothing remarkable...until he gets to the phrase "right there", which becomes a suddenly very loud and forceful "RHY-CHYAH!" (or something to that effect). No reason in context for the sudden dramatic change in volume. You don't hear that every day, but it's not rare either. 
Also...at the grocery stores, even some of the national chains, on the signs hanging at the end of the aisles, the suffixes "-en" and "-ed" are dropped from many of the adverbs: froze food, can vegetables. And, of course, it is very prevalent, even among educated people, to make plurals with an apostrophe-s. I remember a tourist attraction in the "Alpine" town of Helen, GA that had HUGE (and, I imagine, expensive) banners out front advertising "toy's" and "gift's". Here in Athens there is a carpeting outfit whose trucks advertise "Carpet's Plus." I know that this is not unique to the South, but it must be ten times more common here than it was back home (where nobody says "to be"). Another interesting feature of the vocabulary are compound words that sound redundant to an outsider: ink pen, loaf bread (not the same as loaf of bread—here, loaf is more akin to wheat or white...it's a style), Cadillac car (it's not just on King of the Hill!). PurpleChez 22:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gotta source this stuff.  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never been real clear on "loaf bread" though I've heard it all my life.  I've thought "ink pen" was to distinguish it from "stick pin" because "pin" and "pen" sound the same here. Poochner 21:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've heard that about "ink pen" and "stick pin" too. I suspect "loaf bread" is in contrast to "pan bread" like cornbread. But this too needs sources before it can be added. —Angr 05:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: V

message: There is a lot of white space in the first section of the article.  Anyone know how to bring the TOC higher to eliminate some of it? ++Arx Fortis 22:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How's it now? —Angr 06:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oooh, very nice!  Thanks, Angr. ++Arx Fortis 22:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  White Space 

message: I have heard the word "during" pronounced [dɪɹiŋ] in the South.  208.104.45.20 21:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: During

message: Why is there no IPA symbol for the vowel sound Southeasterners use in words like "wine" and "ride"?  The symbol commonly used, /ɑː/, is accurate only for Louisiana and Mississippi, as far as I know.  In Virginia and South Carolina, the areas I'm most familiar with, the sound is more like /æː/, but I've never known a linguist to write it that way.
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you're looking for [a:]? AJD 05:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  Judging by the audio examples on http://www.paulmeier.com/ipa/vowels.html, /æː/ and [a:] seem to cover the range.  On a second reading, I see that the article uses [a:], not /ɑː/, as I had first thought.
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The diphthong /aɪ/ becomes monophthongized to [aː]. Some speakers exhibit this feature at the ends of words and before voiced consonants but Canadian-style raising before voiceless consonants, so that ride is [raːd] and wide is [waːd], but right is [rəɪt] and white is [wəɪt]; others monophthongize /aɪ/ in all contexts. 
In the coastal plains of Va. (where I grew up), N. C., and S. C., the diphthong is closer to /ɑɪ/, and right on the coast of the Carolinas (and I believe on Va.'s Eastern Shore) it comes very close to /ɔɪ/ (whence the nickname "hoi toiders" for residents of the N. C. Outer Banks).
Monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts seems to occur mainly in the mountains and in other areas to which large numbers of mountaineers have migrated, such as Texas and the Carolina Piedmont.  In the latter area, it is usually a token of class, reflecting the migration of mountaineers to work in Piedmont textile mills in the first half of the 20th Century.
As far as I can tell, monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts never occurs with non-rhotism, something Hollywood has never been able to grasp.
I have no published sources for these assertions, but they're true.
Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 17:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southern "I"