Talk:Tai chi/Archive 3

message: Firestar - This article is weighted completely wrongly.
Taoism - As I said before there is hardly any mention at all of Taoism, in fact this should be right at the top of the page.
Taoism is quite simply the basis of T'ai Chi, you have the yin-yang diagram so why isn't there more mention of it?
Okay there is some discussion of yin and yang principles but you know that, I know it, the average person however will not make the connections with Taoism and the other related fields of Taoist study.
Chi - Secondly you have hardly mentioned the fact that T'ai Chi is not a physical form of exercise but is more closely related to Chi Gung. What about the micro-cosmic energy circulation and energy meridians and energy centres? T'ai Chi is not based upon physics or western science, I think you have confused it with aerobics!
To talk about T'ai Chi without mentioning Chi is absurd. Just sticking a link in is not enough, this needs much more in depth discussion. Okay T'ai Chi is related to Martial Arts that much is obvious but you are giving completely the wrong impression here, westerners will think it's Karate. 
Softness and Internal principles - T'ai Chi is a soft style and is not about fighting but about learning the skills to avoid fighting. Where are the discussions about internal style principles? Nothing! There is no mention of the principles of softness with regard to going with the flow of energy and yielding as opposed to the hard style principle of blocking force, this is the key to softness not how relaxed the muscles are altho of course this is also important from the standpoint of energy flow.
Lineage - This lineage diagram is absolute nonsense. Anyone with even a basic understanding of Taoist philosophy will know that lineage is not a Taoist concept but derives from Confucian ancestor worship. T'ai Chi masters are not ranked according to pieces of paper or even fighting skills but in their knowledge of Taoism and it's practical application as a teaching method of the way (Tao). In fact true Taoists would never dream of comparing themselves with others or ranking styles according to which is best. Why have this ridiculous lineage diagram which no one at all will be interested in? it is redundant. It is also extremely boring, please remove it at once.
Pre and Post Revolution - There needs to be some mention of the fact that many Taoists were exiled or forbidden to practise their T'ai Chi and related studies with the advent of Communism. Many Taoist masters had to go overseas and take their T'ai Chi to other countries. Have you seen 'Pushing Hands' by Ang Lee? Maybe you should. The point has to be made that Taoism and T'ai Chi practise was actively suppressed and that many documents and lineages not to mention people were destroyed so no accurate history of T'ai Chi can be compiled. Also T'ai Chi was often kept secret and not taught to the public so just looking at public records of those styles that have popularized themselves is not particularly relevant. 
Do you do T'ai Chi Firestar? Let me guess, you do Yang style T'ai Chi. 
This article is far too heavily weighted towards Yang style and their attempts to promote their style through documentation and lineage. Get a life guys, no one is interested in this.
Please can you stop censoring this article and find something better to do with your life?
As for the rest of you let's hear something more interesting about Chi energy and Taoist philosophy and enough talk about redundant lineage documents.
--Chuangzu 18:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Chuangzu, I am very glad you bring up these subjects and the criticism is very useful. May I suggest, since you have knowledge on these subjects, that you write an article on each one of these subjects? Wikipedia exists by the grace of the contributors that have knowledge and want to share it. It may mean that this present article "Tai Chi Chuan" will have to be re-edited in some (major) fashion. So be it. If you bring in your knowledge others will most likely find and make the connections with other subjects and the quality and scope of the whole will increase. However, I implore you to respect the work others have done already. Their work may be periferal to your contribution or may have connections to it, but please let's respect each others work. I am looking forward to you articles. --JohJak2 21:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fire Star, it looks like you put in a lot of effort to answer just one critical person. Well done. I hope Chuangzu will appreciate it and if he has something substantial to add we will hear from him. --JohJak2 09:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the consideration. Looking it over, The only thing I see missing from my response is that I should have emphasised more that I am quite willing to work with people on any article. It is good that Chuangzu made a list of his concerns and published it here, because that is the way to go forward. My response (perhaps a bit overwhelming) to the list's wording and overall tone was in aid of demonstrating, with citations, that I for one believe these issues had indeed been addressed in the article. Is the article perfect? Absolutely not. I'm not perfect, either. My response was probably triggered by my martial arts teachers' knee-jerk reaction to being condescended to by another stylist. ;-) Without being personally offensive, I wanted to convey my complete rejection of the use of that negotiating tool by anyone who assumes (based on a simple disagreement) that they know more about a subject, and ourselves (the little pat on the head about being a "Yang stylist"), than we do. Assume good faith is a forgiving policy, and if Chuangzu still wants to work with us, I'll be happy to address his concerns in a constructive, and as you've mentioned, respectful, manner. Regards, --Fire Star 14:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article needs a lot more emphasis on Chi, Taoism and please remove the boring Lineage diagram. 

message: I noticed some double redirects and already fixed a couple before noticing that the recent move is within the last day. Hopefully the name can be quickly settled and then the double redirects also fixed. 
I would have thought Tai Chi (with or without capitals) was the most suitable name, as this is what it is commonly known as in English; however I'll leave it to others to work it out. --Singkong2005 04:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to go through and fix the double redirects that have main namespace articles linking to them. I'll try to consolidate some of the links in the form Variant Form, which will make it easier to update things in the future if the page moves around again. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 04:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Double redirects

message: I think that the reference given for this is lacking in that the entry suggests it might rise to the level of a pilot study in the generally understood conventional medicine/research sense, and the cite is simply an interview in which, in my understanding, there's a bit of anecdotal reportage and the possibility of a pilot study forthcoming. Am I missing something? 24.199.71.163 23:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: T'ai Chi and Diabetes

message: Shouldn't we say that the healing part of Tai Chi is acutally Chi Kung? People generally do not understand the difference between the two.
Kamil (Ruok) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruok (talk • contribs) 
:It isn't necessarily the case. There are many different styles of T'ai Chi, and some have qigong and some don't. Schools without dedicated qigong training can still have a health benefit. --Fire Star 火星 01:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chi Kung 

message: Who is this annoynmous joker who keeps repeatedly adding the "Free TV channel" link (see history)?  Can we block him some how?  Can we lock the page for a while until he gives up the spam? Triponi 10:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reported IP address to WP:AIV - to temporarily protect the page see WP:PROT. --apers0n 11:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Now semi-protected. Leave it a while and then remove the protection status and also remove from WP:PROT when the vandal has given up. --apers0n 12:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I have sprotected it again as the "free TV" idiot is certainly presistant, so I think we need to keep the protection on for quiet a while.  Please discuss removing it here, before doing it! Triponi 08:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The semiprotection is now activated per  request here --apers0n 19:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links abuse 

message: We really could use a separate article on Zhaobao style. It is pretty well known and has serious practitioners, especially in China. Unfortunately, I don't know enough of its history to do it justice. Anyone else know anything about it? --Fire Star 火星 14:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have a stubby new article at Zhaobao style Taijiquan. --Fire Star 火星 04:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zhaobao style 

message: I think there should be an internal link to Chin Na in the See Also category.  I'd do it myself but I'm a new user and I am not even really sure how.  maybe one of the admins can do it. VanTucky 19:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is already linked in the training section. Not all styles teach it, unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure 100 years ago they all did. Perhaps we can make the mention a little more prominent. --Fire Star 火星 16:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Good. As far as I can tell, the character's association with Taijiquan is mostly wishful thinking. It is apparently mentioned as part of their backstory, but they never (or hardly ever) do any Taijiquan in the show. --Fire Star 火星 13:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See Also 

message: About two years ago, I found this website on taichi which offered videos of various forms (24-form, 48-form, etc). I think it offered still photos as well. To put it simply, I cant find it anymore, do any of you guys know where it is? -Guest
:So sorry, I found it myself within a few minutes. It is http://www.taiji.de/. Could any of you senior users please add it to the External Links section (semi-protection)? I think it is of great practical importance. -Same Guest
Tai Chi America's website also has several form demonstration videos in a different format than realplayer.  VanTucky 23:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TaiChi Website 

message: The short article Taiji dates to September, 2003.  It appears to cover the same ground as this one. Take a look and see if you agree that it should be merged here. --Blainster 17:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, they don't quite cover the same topic. Taiji is more of a concept commonly discussed in Taoism, while Tai Chi Chuan (or taijiquan) is a specific style of martial art based on this concept. - Wintran (talk) 21:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

text: However, colloqial usage of 'Tai Chi' refers to the exercise form, not to the Taoist concept. At least some kind of disambiguisation would be appropriate - 67.176.177.166 15:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this is exactly what is confusing to the the English speaker who is not familiar with Chinese culture.  Why does "Tai Chi" redirect here, while "Tai chi" redirects to the Taiji article?  I believe that for non-expert westerners the quoted spellings refer to the slow, rhythmic exercise suitable for all ages. Anonymous User:200.148.45.70 in Montevideo, Uruguay silently removed the merge tag 24 hours after I placed it, but some clarification is still needed. How about this: first, the two variants just quoted should both point to the same article, and second, that article should mention the slow exercise in its first paragraph. (Note that the Wiki MOS recommends bolding redirect terms and placing them as close as possible to the beginning of the article.) --Blainster 20:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a good idea. I didn't know about the "Tai Chi" and "Tai chi" thing. I've been a little busy lately, only managing cursory visits to WP, so I haven't done any work on the problem. We have a nice dab sentence we could adapt at the top of the pushing hands article. --Fire Star 火星 22:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge from Taiji

message: Although Tai Chi is largely based on the philosophy Taoism, isn't its meditation based on Zen Buddhist meditation except in a more moving form? Zachorious 08:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What at least 4 of the 5 main styles teach is that the external forms themselves are from Buddhist martial arts, the meditation principles (neigong) are from Taoism and the teaching structure is from Confucianism. Nowadays, especially in the west, people mix it with whatever they want, but the way it was taught 200 years ago was in a coherent structure based on those three streams. --Fire Star 火星 12:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: People with shaved heads living in Songshan who say they are Shaolin monks do teach what they call T'ai Chi Ch'uan. They may indeed be real Shaolin monks, I don't know, but the T'ai Chi I've seen them do is the Chinese govt. wushu variety. --Fire Star 火星 22:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, it is complicated. There are many different sects of both Taoism and Buddhism. Some seem complementary, some seem drastically different. Some Taoist schools seem to have more in common with some Buddhist practises than with other groups who also identify as Taoist, and vice versa. For T'ai Chi purposes (and remember mine is just one opinion, no matter how much I flatter myself regarding my teachers) Buddhist groups that appear to be most relevant are the Chan and Pure Land doctrines. The Taoist schools were described to me as the "hygienic" or naturalist sects, which eschew seeking psychic power or immortality in this world, as opposed to "alchemical" or immortalist Taoists. And still, over the years there looks like there has been much language and other influence from groups seemingly outside those streams that I think I can detect. Generally, the softer elements seem to come from Taoism, and the harder from Buddhism, although that isn't a 100% correlation either. There are qigong exercises I was shown that my teachers have said are identical to Shaolin exercises, for example. It is the practical study of yin and yang, whether Buddhist or Taoist, that characterises usefulness for T'ai Chi purposes, I'd say. The physical and energetic states involved in the meditation I was shown, the movement or stilness requirements and where they are required are all expressions of changes of perception relating to yin and yang categories. --Fire Star 火星 05:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buddhist Meditation 

message: The  overlaps the text in my IE 6 browser. Yonidebest 22:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ChineseText template 

message: i have failed this for now.  The article, for the exception of the medical benefits section, is not referenced well, and needs citations.  A prose cleanup could defintely be of benefit, however.  Clean it up, get some citations, then relist it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS to move page at this time. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA

message: :Add  * Support  or  * Oppose  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
*Oppose. Most publications in English, periodicals and bound, use W-G, IME. As well, You'll get a lot more google hits for some version of W-G than pinyin. As we've gone over in the talk archive, I don't think that there is a satisfactory solution, there are even simplified and traditional Chinese character versions of the name, so I say we choose the most popular English version and a host of various redirects for those who may search with any of the many different variations. --Fire Star 火星 14:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I stand somewhat corrected. A search shows 1,270,000 for Tai Chi Chuan and 1,120,000 for Taijiquan. 180,000 for T'ai Chi Ch'uan. 2,680,000 for Tai Chi, 2,060,000 for Taiji and 947,000 for T'ai Chi. Not all of the latter results will pertain to the martial art we are discussing, but many do. The last time we did something like this, the results were overwhelming in favour of W-G, but this shows some progress for pinyin, apparently. --Fire Star 火星 19:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Tai Chi is a martial art form that utilizes both the fist and the external weapon. Chuan is the word that denotes the use of hands as weapons. It is incorrect to call Tai Chi "Tai Chi Chuan" unless you are talking specificaly about weapons-free forms.
No, Tai Chi by itself denotes a daoist philosophical concept which literally means the most elemental separation of yin and yang.  Chuan at the end of tai chi means "fist" with the connotation of shadow-boxing and differentiates the tai chi concept from the tai chi martial art.  You can shadow box with weapons.  Dropping the chuan is like using a nickname it is informal and for convenience.  Put it this way, if you were correct about this we would have to go back and correct the names of around 1000 chinese styles. Mlmalone 20:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation needed. 

message: I was just considering the idea of expanding the number of tai chi stubs like the single whip stub. a group of stub explaining the postures of tai chi found in every style (single whip, grasp bird's tail etc.) and detailing the differences in execution and application. anyone want to collaborate? VanTucky 01:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  stub expansion 

message: I just discovered the pages for the so-called Tchoung style tai chi. Not disputing that this guy taught his own version of tai chi which was obviously Yang influenced. But his students claim he learned from a much older generation of Yang teachers than Yang Chengfu, this and other claims by the people who wrote the page (his students of course) allude to the Tchoung style being "original" Yang style that is superior to the lineage of all other Yang teachers. Historical truth not withstanding, wikipedia has strict NPOV and if we dont let people write their own bios, then we sure as hell cant let his students lord it over the article of their "style" claiming to be the pure standard bearers of Yang teachings. I suggest the article for a serious overhaul, maybe even deletion. VanTucky 20:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've only ever heard of the style just now (not that that means much) and I agree the articles need to be either completely re-written or removed. Good catch. --Fire Star 火星 21:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tchoung Ta Chen Style? 

message: The following two articles link to tai chi, should there not also be reverse links here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguazhang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X%C3%ADngy%C3%ACqu%C3%A1n
Currently there seems to be no mention of these two associated arts that are frequently taught alongside tai chi.
(CJE) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.169.45.170 (talk) 12:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency of links 

message: first of sorry but i dont know how to input chinese yet.
second, the quan or chuan in tai chi chuan or taiji quan does
mean fist when used by itself.  however in martial arts it connotes
"boxing" to distinguish itself from just taiji, which is just a philosophical
theory.  Almost all Chinese martial arts have a quan at the end to 
denote it being a "boxing" style and not just a family name.  However,
quan or chuan in itself means fist.--Blckavnger 15:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation? 

message: No inline citations.  Also, for future reference, you should put  here on the talk page when you nominate, as described in the directions at WP:GAC.  --Ideogram 04:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed GA 

message: To reach GA status, I think we need to rewrite the intro and first few sections to make them as concise as possible, also keeping in mind order/grouping (i.e. puttin all the mentions of where it comes from etc. together for cohesion). I think for someone who has no idea what exactly tai chi is, this article's intro would be highly confusing. Remember, first and foremost Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, a resource for people. Despite my personal feelings, I think we also need to review the entire article for NPOV concerening the fair and balanced presentation of the martial art versus health/exercise points of view. I will be doing some bold edits, so please feel free to discuss them with me of course. VanTucky 03:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What you say is sensible. There was weight towards justification, with the martial arts therapy link, etc. That is good to have in the See also or health section, but stremlining the initial explication is fine. I'm going to (time and external commitiments permitting) start collecting as many inline refs as I can as well. I'll post them here first to see what people think. --Fire Star 火星 14:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro/first sections 

message: I've proposed getting a userbox for tai chi players. Bout time we had one. You can view the request here. Cheers! VanTucky 01:05, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neijia pride! 

message: I've removed the following paragraph, as it seems to want to make a causal connexion between the prevalence of squatting in Asia with the practise of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. I'm pretty sure that squatting (from prehistory) predates T'ai Chi (Song dynasty at the earliest, but only recorded from the late Qing dynasty), and is probably more directly linked to the relative scarcity of chairs in rural villages, at least until recently. For us to imply that an aspect of T'ai Chi may be a contributing factor to the syndrome is opinion or even original research if it isn't explicitly stated in a secondary source. 
:Even for the young, Tai Chi's focus on relaxing the kua may be a contributing factor in the greater pelvic flexibility observed in Asian countries and the use of the squatting position as a more common rest mode.
--Fire Star 火星 13:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm okay with that since it could fall under "interesting but useless facts" since it is out of context, but it isn't original research. This concept was introduced in a NY Times article on Tai Chi's health benefit that I think is still in references. I would like to see a cite for your claim of the squat's age as a cultural attribute Fire Star, as I could find no other sources on the history of the squat position (check the article) dating back that far. Also, the paragraph doesn't categorically suggest that all Asian squatting traditions are a product of Tai Chi, only that it is distinctly possible that it contributes to the ability to do so. A broader suggestion would be totally inane, considering that the squatting position is arguably more prevalent in other countries (say, Thailand) that do not practice Tai Chi on such a wide scale. It seemed pretty tame compared to other statements in the article, such as a direct quote from an AIDS patient saying Tai Chi and Qigong have helped put his condition basically into remission. VanTucky 18:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll agree that doing T'ai Chi regularly should promote the ability to squat (especially among relatively unsquatted westerners!) and coincidentally there are several squat like stretches in Wu style beyond the ubiquitous variations on horse stance. They may exist in other styles too, for all I know. It may have struck me wrong, but the paragraph as worded seemed to imply that T'ai Chi was partly responsible for Chinese squatting, which didn't seem likely, because as popular as T'ai Chi is, I don't think it is that popular. If we can get a secondary source saying that T'ai Chi promotes the ability to squat, we should feature it. I brought the paragraph here though, so we could sort it out and perhaps reword it. The NYT article cited (which seems interesting) requires registration, which opens up the spam floodgates most times, so I didn't access it. For an overview of the prehistory and history of squatting, archaeologists (and pathologists) have long been aware of changes in the leg and hip bones they call "squatting facets" in skeletons of people who squatted for extended periods of time. A Google search will provide a lot of descriptions and examples of the syndrome. Regards, --Fire Star 火星 19:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, that's very interesting. Yeah, the NYT registration doesn't give out your info for spammers or send any of their own, but it does cost money. I can sign in again with mine and look at the articles in the refs again to be sure, but if it can be cited would you agree to a rewording for clarification (that it contributes to the ease of motion, not the reason for the motion in Chinese culture)? and btw: almost every other style has squatting exercises or sustained kua-opening in its forms (Chen style is like one long squatting exercise for christssake!)VanTucky 20:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think the idea is fine, but a reversal of the wording will be better, perhaps paraphrasing the article cite. I suppose squatting (ankles to butt, feet flat on ground) is the deepest horse stance, after all! On a side note, I have been reading excepts recently of what sinologists think is a 4th century BCE chapter (out of many others) of a collective philosophical work, the Guanzi (text). The chapter in question (chapter 49, called "Inner Training" 內業) mentions a lot of the same kind of language of shen, jing and qi in the same way that it is used by many T'ai Chi schools.  I wonder if anyone else thinks that would be worth expanding on for the article? --Fire Star 火星 21:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that has interesting implications for the history section. Can you give me the sections you are referring to here? I think with a proper quotation or paraphrase it would be good to add a sentence along the lines of "...not only are there predecessor neigong arts to Tai Chi Chuan (Tao Yin etc.) but the theoretical terminology still in use today dates back to mentions in Chinese philisophical texts, notably the Guanzi (and maybe the Tao Te Ching) of the 4th century BCE. VanTucky 22:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll post some of A.C. Graham's translated excerpts from the chapter here tomorrow to give you an idea. I've got the whole chapter in Chinese, but just excerpts so far from well known translators. My classical Chinese isn't good enough to do it justice, I'm afraid... --Fire Star 火星 02:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speculation 

message: Why should their be translations into Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese in the infobox? There aren't translations for other non-originating countries, and tai chi isn't a unique part of the aforementioned countries culture's. VanTucky 01:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about Korea, but I know tcc is popular in Japan and, surprisingly, Vietnam (which has a large overseas Chinese population). Whether that is enough of a reason to have the info in, I don't know. It's interesting, I guess. --Fire Star 火星 02:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess it just seems like the transliterations should be there bc that is the original usage of the word. And as no cites on numbers of tai chi players can be found by country, it is pretty debatable about how popular tai chi may be in some country. It may be that taiji is just as popular in say, the UK or Malaysia, as Vietnam. I think that the other languages are included bc they happen to be Asian, which is sheer ignorance. VanTucky 02:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have any cites, but coincidentally I'd agree from my own original research the UK and Malaysia have more. Vietnam is a former Qing colony, so it kind of makes sense. There was a thing where 1,000 Japanese in identical silk outfits demonstrated a wushu Yang form in Tiananmen a few years back. I'll see if I can find a link to that... --Fire Star 火星 03:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whoa whoa, I'm not saying taiji isnt certifiably popular in those countries, I'm just saying that there isn't a translated name for taiji from all of the countries it is popular in, so that is clearly not the qualification for inclusion, nor should it be. It seems more to have to do with regional association of origin. But we all know taiji isn't a Japanese or Vietnamese martial art. So why do we need them translated in the English Wikipedia's infobox? Isn't that the purview of the Japanese and Vietnamese wikis? VanTucky 06:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't currently have (or probably need) sections like Tai chi in Europe, Tai chi in Canada, Tai chi in Japan, etc., which is a logical place for that kind of info to go (if we want it) anyway. Bradford44's suggestion is good, IMO. --Fire Star 火星 14:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Instead of the boxes that are there now, why don't you use  for the right-hand corner, and use  inline with the beginning of the article as recommended by WP:MOS-ZH#Combination Templates? (See Xingyiquan for an example where this was implemented) Bradford44 13:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would go for that for consistency with other MA articles. --Fire Star 火星 14:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That's fine, I changed to "disputed".  One of you guys with tai chi experience or knowledgable about the history should fill in the fields for "parenthood" and "notable practioners" if possible. Bradford44 18:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually (and don't blame me, I didn't make the template), "hardness" apparently refers to the hardness of competition,. so I always fill it in with "full-contact", "light-contact", "no-contact", "forms competition only", or "non-competitive". Bradford44 19:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it be possible to put pushing hands in in place of the light contact bit? Also, I've competed in sanshou  and leitai tournaments when I was younger with only a tcc background. Striking, kicking, knees, elbows, throws. This is fairly common for Wu stylists in SE Asia. I'm pretty sure there are Chen guys who compete too, esp. in Taiwan by my recollections. Do you think that could (or should) be included? I'll go over some tournament results online to see if I can find any mention of tcc people competing this way. --Fire Star 火星 02:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: leitai and sanshou (especially under modern wushu governance) are separate practices/courses of study than taiji. It is so rare in taiji study (in Asia and beyond) for students to practice full-contact fighting as to be completely negligible in a functioning definition. Besides, people participating in leitai and sanshou are simply utilizing taiji, they aren't practicing taiji. And restrained contact push hands is the norm for taiji tournaments the world over. To include a full-contact note in the infobox on a resource on taiji for those who don't know it already would be sorely misleading. VanTucky 02:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your input. Unfortunately, I'll have to agree that the overwhelming majority of schools have zero experience with full contact. I found this  that lists Eddie Wu as chairman of the Canadian wushu association, which oversees "Asian Games" style sanshou in Canada and in whose tournaments I have competed (I'm not his student, however, I learned from one of his uncles and his uncle's students). I don't think it is explicit enough for what I had in mind, though. --Fire Star 火星 14:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Dan Docherty fought using TCC in tournaments in 1976 and 1980 at least.  He refers to it as "South East Asian Martial Arts Championships", the 1980 competition held in Malaysia - where he took the Super Heavyweight title after beating Roy Pink (a five ancestors stylist) - by KO - and Mr (first name not supplied) Lohandran (Chi Ke Chuan) on points. ref: http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/tai_chi_gladiator.html (apparently published in "Fighting Arts International").  I've not been able to research either the original article or the tournament claim - though I once saw a video claiming to be of Dan knocking out Roy -- Medains (talk) 13:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  superflous languages 

message: I'm fine with that, but just FYI: we're probably going to get grumbling about unequivocally attributing the creation to Chen Wangting. It may be better to say: Disputed. And possibly include both Wangting and Zhang San Feng. VanTucky 17:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine, I changed to "disputed".  One of you guys with tai chi experience or knowledgable about the history should fill in the fields for "parenthood" and "notable practioners" if possible. Bradford44 18:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually (and don't blame me, I didn't make the template), "hardness" apparently refers to the hardness of competition,. so I always fill it in with "full-contact", "light-contact", "no-contact", "forms competition only", or "non-competitive". Bradford44 19:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it be possible to put pushing hands in in place of the light contact bit? Also, I've competed in sanshou  and leitai tournaments when I was younger with only a tcc background. Striking, kicking, knees, elbows, throws. This is fairly common for Wu stylists in SE Asia. I'm pretty sure there are Chen guys who compete too, esp. in Taiwan by my recollections. Do you think that could (or should) be included? I'll go over some tournament results online to see if I can find any mention of tcc people competing this way. --Fire Star 火星 02:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: leitai and sanshou (especially under modern wushu governance) are separate practices/courses of study than taiji. It is so rare in taiji study (in Asia and beyond) for students to practice full-contact fighting as to be completely negligible in a functioning definition. Besides, people participating in leitai and sanshou are simply utilizing taiji, they aren't practicing taiji. And restrained contact push hands is the norm for taiji tournaments the world over. To include a full-contact note in the infobox on a resource on taiji for those who don't know it already would be sorely misleading. VanTucky 02:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your input. Unfortunately, I'll have to agree that the overwhelming majority of schools have zero experience with full contact. I found this  that lists Eddie Wu as chairman of the Canadian wushu association, which oversees "Asian Games" style sanshou in Canada and in whose tournaments I have competed (I'm not his student, however, I learned from one of his uncles and his uncle's students). I don't think it is explicit enough for what I had in mind, though. --Fire Star 火星 14:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Dan Docherty fought using TCC in tournaments in 1976 and 1980 at least.  He refers to it as "South East Asian Martial Arts Championships", the 1980 competition held in Malaysia - where he took the Super Heavyweight title after beating Roy Pink (a five ancestors stylist) - by KO - and Mr (first name not supplied) Lohandran (Chi Ke Chuan) on points. ref: http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/tai_chi_gladiator.html (apparently published in "Fighting Arts International").  I've not been able to research either the original article or the tournament claim - though I once saw a video claiming to be of Dan knocking out Roy -- Medains (talk) 13:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: New version

message: WTF? I personally placed a NY Times citation to the last paragraph, and now it's gone with a fact tag on it. VanTucky 18:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  health benefits 

message: Hi, just wanted to mention that the "See also" section could use some trimming, as it should not include terms appearing in the body of the article.  See WP:GTL#See also. Bradford44 12:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. And as long as I'm here, I'd also like to mention that I haven't seen any arguments in a while, so perhaps the "controversial topic" tag at the top of this talk page can come down now. Bradford44 12:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "See also" section

message: We have seen Christianity often manipulated towards that of a cult, by individuals with a hidden manipulative agenda.
Is there anything to suggest a 'hidden agenda' within the Tai Chi movement in North America ?
--Caesar J. B. Squitti  :  Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is my opinion, and doesn't have much to do with the article, so if you want to discuss after this we should take it to my talk page. The tai chi movement, like Christianity or professional wrestling or theoretical physics, in North America or anywhere else, isn't a unified thing. So there are would-be cult leaders, and there are reputable teachers. Caveat emptor. The traditional schools focus on technical physical training, not spiritual speculation; New Age non-martial schools tend to get into abstract philosophising in aid of personality driven "teaching" that easily leads to manipulation.  The teachers whom I learned from taught that correctly studied, tai chi chuan is like water. It benefits everyone equally, regardless of their religious denomination. If there is a crossover into spiritual training, it would be that anything a person does to improve their health, their relaxation and their ability to focus will assist them in their devotional activities, whatever those activities may be. Tai chi chuan is a martial art. Everything should tie directly into learning self-defense, if it doesn't, the teacher is teaching something else. --Fire Star 火星 18:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is there a cult-element to this. 

message: This is curious. Traditional tai chi chuan is loaded with strike training. Is the infobox meant to just represent wushu competitions? --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 22:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does the infobox say no strikes? 

message: Just wondering why most of the Chinese words in Wikipedia are written with their Pinyin Romanization system, yet the Taijiquan article is written Tai Chi Chuan? It seems to be more mainstream to spell it Tai Chi Chuan and more "in the know" the spell it Taijiquan. This linguistic turn could also shed light on the initial discussion on this page regarding fists and such.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.22.155.15 (talk) 00:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is covered in the talk page archives linked above. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 14:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tai Chi or Taiji and Tai Chi Chuan or Taijiquan? 

message: I do not claim to have any knowledge about Tai Chi, and I simply stumbled across this article by coincidence. I did think it should be mentioned that the section entitled "modern tai chi" seems almost like a complaint instead of fact. With quotes like, "practically anyone can call themself a teacher" and "If they do teach self-defense, it is often a mixture of motions which the teachers think look like tai chi chuan with some other system", it seems more like a disgruntled tai chi teacher complaining than facts about the art. I suggest that the paragraph be rewritten or taken out due to the overall tone of this section of the article. 
        
Ldavis57 (talk) 20:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Tai Chi 

message: This article is not consistent in the way Chinese terms are transliterated. I started to make changes, but soon realized that I did not know the Wikipedia style well enough to do a good job, so I did not make any changes. I don't know much about t'ai chi, but I know enough Chinese to spot inconsistency. OatFarm (talk) 02:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consistency in transliteration 

message: In this article, it's variously referred to as Tai Chi, tai chi, and Tai chi. Is there any reason to capitalize either or both words? Considering the meaning of the phrase -- "supreme ultimate fist" -- I see none.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyharrison (talk • contribs) 21:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be in caps (the third way) as the start of a sentence. But tai chi is not a pronoun, so it shouldn't be arbitrarily capitalized. VanTucky 21:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  capitalization