Talk:The Awareness Center

message: Is this a reliable source? http://thejewishstar.wordpress.com Wordpress sites are usually blogs, but this doesn't exactly resemble a normal blog. OTOH, they don't list editors or owners, so it doesn't quite resemble a newspaper either. Do we know anything more about it?   Will Beback  talk   16:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like the blog of an existing printed periodical. See http://thejewishstar.wordpress.com/about/. -- Avi (talk) 18:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I missed that. It looks like it qualifies. Thanks.   Will Beback  talk   18:40, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry that I missed your question, Will. I thought that was covered because Wikipedia helpfully linked automatically to its own page on The Jewish Star in the credits. In any case, this is what we've been trying to say about the organization for  years. The problem is that even when a person's psychological issue directly affects their position, it's not something considered a polite topic for an article. So those "in the know" simply stop relying upon her for quotes about abuse issues, while those not "in the know" just keep using her. Now, finally, the facts are emerging in print. We must protect the community from the real danger of abuse; unfortunately, her reputation is such that any reference to "The Awareness Center" is counterproductive when the person is actually guilty. SunAlsoRises (talk) 16:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Having an article on Wikipedia (which I hadn't seen) is not a sign of being a reliable source, but that's a moot point now.   Will Beback  talk   20:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I meant, there's an article on Wikipedia which explains that it's a periodical that meets WP:V. I should have been more clear. SunAlsoRises (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Any sentence that starts with "I'm told..." is the archetype of what does not belong here. David in DC (talk) 00:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: thejewishstar

message: Will, you removed the link to "Rachel" on youtube. This video speaks directly to the motivations of the founder of the organization. Was the organization founded because she is a tireless victims' advocate as she says, or to continue to tar the Jewish community with accusations true or false? To me at least, the video is not tangential. Could you explain your reasoning? SunAlsoRises (talk) 20:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:ELNO. Unless that video was posted by Harpo Productions, the owner, it is a likely copyright violation and we can't link to it. It has nothing to do with the contents.   Will Beback  talk   20:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. Understood. SunAlsoRises (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, a better link would have been WP:ELNEVER. Same page, different section.   Will Beback  talk   21:26, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: youtube

message: In an article about The Awareness Center, the focus must be on The Awareness Center.  Criticism of its director is relevant, but even on pages that are not biographies of living people, the rules on derogatory information about living people apply.
That means the Rachel material needs to be the second sentence in the lede and the final part of the Criticism section.  I've renamed that section, to make explicit the fact that both sorts of criticisms lay below the subhed. 
The last section works better as writing qua writing, too.  It starts with explicit criticism of the Center and its methods. Then comes the Catalyst material, which straddles the line between critique of the Center and characterization of Ms. Polin. Then the Rachel/Oprah/ADL stuff, which focus on Ms. Polin.
Also, as noted above, putting "Rachel" after the Catalyst stuff gets rid of that ugly business of ending on a block quote.David in DC (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:UNDUE|Undue weight]] 

message: Outside of Rabbi Blau, is there any non-TAC evidence for the support of the other 259 rabbis? -- Avi (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: None I've ever seen. I've looked. David in DC (talk) 00:37, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Don't you think that if the rabbis didn't want their name listed as supporters that there would be information on the net regarding this issue?  Once again, your motives appear to be to attack The Awareness Center and Ms. Polin.  I view this as nothing more then cyberbullying and that Wikipedia is being used as a weapon. Chaim B (talk) 00:37, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It is neither our job, nor even are we allowed, to speculate about the motives of others. We rely solely on reliable and verifiable sources. There is no reliable information outside of Polin's own site about this, which calls the veracity into some askance. -- Avi (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It would make sense that if you did not believe what was on the page that you would just start calling some of the rabbis listed and ask them if they gave permission for their names to be there.  Do you do diligence before you start accusing a non-profit organization recognized by the IRS of providing false information.   Chaim B (talk) 13:32, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be original research. I think many of the editors that have been involved in this article understand your concern, but this needs to be resolved by citing verifiable secondary sources unrelated to the topic. As to the suggestion of cyberbullying, please review WP:AGF; it would be better to focus on the article, not the editors. VQuakr (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Rabbis 

message: I've been monitoring the attacks against Vicki Polin and The Awareness Center on Wikipedia for a very long time.  I've also noticed she requested this page be deleted and both her name and that of The Awareness Center barred from being re-entered.  When ever anyone puts up accurate information regarding Ms. Polin and this organization it gets deleted.  I've also been told this is happening to others who advocate for the rights of those who have been sexually abused.  I'm curious if anyone has ever brought up legal action against Wikipedia for this sort of behavior?  Chaim B (Talk) 01:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Wikipedia:No legal threats. -- Avi (talk) 07:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Continued Harassment of a Living Person

message: The following two reliable sources say Baltimore:
http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2007/01/25/news/local/insightabuse0125.txt
http://washingtonjewishweek.com/main.asp?SectionID=4&subsectionID=4&articleID=6566
What sources say Skokie?Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It moved, new address on the website. SunAlsoRises (talk) 07:12, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Headquartered in Skokie or Baltimore?

message: I've just reverted two edits made on the basis that this biography is not a reliable source. It's the first edit by a new editor. I've asked the new editor to join a conversation on this page, both on his talk page and in my edit summary. The current consensus is that this book fits squarely within the wikipedia definition of a reliable source. I think it is. What do others think? Please leave the article alone on this score unless and until a new consensus is reached here. David in DC (talk) 19:40, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oprah: A Biography. New York: Crown Archetype.  

message: TAC's Executive Director has put out publicity in the past 2 days announcing the closure of TAC. Her announcements are used for sources right now. They're self-published, to the web, by TAC. It was long ago settled here that self-published TAC pages could not be cited for the truth of its accusations of abuse, but could be cited for its incorporation, mission statement, self-description, and claim of Rabbinic support. It's announced closing is just the bookend of its announced founding. Still, I'm on the lookout for a news story picking up TAC's announcement. I'll insert one when I find it. David in DC (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's completely reasonable to use any organization's website as a source for the fact of its closure. I doubt we will see it in the news... I went looking, and her new website doesn't even mention where she worked, so I think Polin is trying to bury this in her past. However, she acknowledges that she appeared on the Oprah Winfrey show on a bio page I just found. Since she has never appeared on the show under her own name (or at least, she has never claimed it), I think the language of the page needs to be more definite that it was her. SunAlsoRises (talk) 22:14, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defunct? 

message: TAC has resumed functioning, according to its latest web postings. Given recent COI edits, that seemed to be the case. I've changed the tenses of the verbs here, accordingly.  TAC's executive director has also posted her explanation of her Oprah appearance.  We already had reliable sources for that fact (NYT, Catalyst, Kitty Kelley's book about Oprah.) But all cast the executive director in a negative light. That's discussed extensively above and in the archives. Not to mention elsewhere. 
The executive director's own words are now in the article, to answer prior concerns about balance. In my editorial judgment, they should be the last word on the subject, so that's where I've put them.
I've also updated any sentences in the article sourced to the old TAC web page with sources from the new one. Where I could find them, I've used what looks like the old sources, just reposted to the new site. In other cases, where I could not find exact matches, I've found similar ones.  I tried to get rid of the dead links, but a bot didn't like that.  So I've kept them in, appropriately tagged, but put the live links in front of them.
The vituperativeness of prior content disputes on this page had convinced me to retire from editing the page when the most recent waves of COI edits hit. But looking through the new site, I think I've found a way to answer the complaints in the recent COI edit summaries, improve the article per WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE, and treat the organization and executive director as fairly as possible, given the the verifiable, notable facts, as reported in reliable sources. David in DC (talk) 02:13, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  April 2013 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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