Talk:Mets–Phillies rivalry

message: I just would like your thoughts if this should be added about the sweep by the Phillies against the Mets to keep them from clinching:
"However, before the series, Phillies Manager John Felske and the players, including reliever Kent Tekulve, Mike Schmidt, and Von Hayes said that they wanted to keep the Mets from clinching in Philadelphia, because they got swept in a preceding series in Chicago against the Chicago Cubs. Sources: Cubs Hands Phils 3rd Loss in a Row, September 11, 1986, by Peter Pascarelli, Philadelphia Inquirer, page D1. Quote: The Phils now must shut the Mets down in three straight games to avoid watching a division-title celebration on their own turf. Also Mets Set to Clinch Vs. Phils, September 12, 1986, by Peter Pascarelli, Philadelphia Inquirer, page D1. Quote: "The Mets' magic number is down to 2...It would be the first division championship ever clinched at the Vet, and the Phillies would love to prevent it from happening. However, after losing three straight in Chicago...the Phils have to sweep the series...to prevent the Mets from clinching in Philadelphia...'To keep them from clinching at the Vet, we needed to do something in Chicago, and we didn't,' said reliever Kent Tekulve, who lost the third game at Wrigley Field." -- SNIyer12, (talk), 23:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see what you are trying to add here. — KV5 • Talk •  00:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What I wanted to make clear was that although the Mets had gone into Philadelphia with a chance to clinch the NL East, Philadelphia did not want to see the Mets clinch on their own turf and tried to do this because they got swept in a series in Chicago. SNIyer12, (talk), 01:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see what Chicago has to do with the rivalry, or why this is important to the subject of the article. — KV5 • Talk •  01:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 1986 Section

message: I know that the Mets took 8 of 12 games from the Phillies that season, but at this time, we don't plan to put in information that one of those wins was the longest scoreless Opening Day game in the National League. I think it's unnecessary at this time, even though it was a notable moment in the rivalry. I do have sources for it, but let's not put in the information at this time. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 21:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If I was to put in info on that, this is what it would have read about 1998: "The 1998 Mets finished in second place, with the Phillies right behind them in third. The Braves finished with the best record in the National League (106 wins), but were unable to make it to the World Series. The Mets finished over .500 for the second straight year, aided by winning 8 of 12 games against the Phillies, including a 1-0 win in the longest scoreless Opening Day game in the National League at Shea Stadium on March 31."  As I said, we're not going to add the information at this time. Anyone who wants information on that game can go to 1998 New York Mets season or 1998 Philadelphia Phillies season. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 14:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's official. Let's not add information that the two teams were involved in the longest scoreless season opener in the National League in 1998. After talking about this with KV5 in the talk page, it is decided that because it sounds trivial, it should not be added, though it was a notable moment in the rivalry. As I said, anyone who wants information about that game can go to 1998 New York Mets season or 1998 Philadelphia Phillies season. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 15:09, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 1995-2000: On 1998

message: I know that both the Mets and the Phillies were eliminated from playoff contention during the final week of the 2005 season and I have sources for it, but let's not add that information in the article. I've asked that no one add that information, as it's unncessary. Anyone who wants information on that can go to 2005 New York Mets season or 2005 Philadelphia Phillies season. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 16:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 2005-2006: Rivalry Intensifies: On 2005

message: Let's not add any information about the 2011 season and the 2010-11 offseason details, including the changes both teams made at this time. I know that there are some changes, but I don't feel it should be added at this time. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 19:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The information has already been added about the offseason on the signing of Cliff Lee and the comments by the manager and general manager of the Mets. – SNIyer12, (talk), 15:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: 2011 season

message: I had to clarify the sources for the quotes about the planned clincher by the Mets, as both the Associated Press and The Philadelphia Inquirer had different quotes. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 15;17, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
:More clarification: I also had to add details to support the quote in The Philadelphia Inquirer. Sorry if I did add it. -- SNIyer12, (talk), 21:12, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: 1986

message: I don't think the source from Forbes, "In Depth: Baseball's Most Intense Rivalry", should be utilized because it's not a good source. There are multiple problems with it.
::1. Forbes - Forbes is a magazine that specializes in finance and wealth. It's not a sports magazine and thus does not employ sports journalists. This would be like ESPN attempting to write article on "The most influential billionaires". It's simply outside of their element of expertise. Now this doesn't automatically disqualify them, but as an encyclopedia the sources we use should reflect expertise on a particular subject.
::2. The author, Matt Woolsey - I don't know anything about the guy, but as far I can tell he doesn't have any training in sports journalism specifically. That would suggest that he writes as a fan and has no more credibility to speak on sports issues than I would. (If he isn't paid to cover games then we have no way of knowing if he even watches a particular sport or team on a regular basis.) I glanced through the archives of the articles he written and, of the hundreds available, I saw only five other that were sports related (not counting financial lists such as highest paid athletes.) Of those five, only one was about baseball, and that was about Fantasy Baseball. (http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/23/underrated-baseball-players-lifestyle-sports-fantasy-baseball.html) Furthermore, in that article he doesn't claim to be an authority on the subject and repeatedly appeals to those whom he considers to be so. Thus, I see no reason to take this man and consider his work to be anything more than what an average fan could come up with.
::3. Factual errors - This source provides a subjective list of the ten "most intense" rivalries in the MLB. I only focused on the Mets-Phillies ranking, as that's what this article is about, and I noticed several factual errors. First, Woolsey states that the two teams have finished within 5 games of each other 8 times in their histories. However, I went through and counted season by season and I count at least twelve. (1968, 1975, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2007, and 2008.) That's no small issue; adding those four uncounted seasons results in a 50% increase of data. Second, Woolsey states that the Mets and Phillies have finished 1/2 in the division 3 times. However, I count at least 4 times they have done so: 1986, 2006, 2007, and 2008. How can this article be considered good if it makes the most fundamental errors? There are five separate seasons omitted from Woolsey's count, and that's just in this one match-up. How many other errors exists in the other nine ranked rivals?
::4. Usefulness - The article doesn't define what it means by "intense". Is this an all-time ranking, or just a ranking of which teams are currently engaged in fierce rivalries? This is an important issue but it's never defined. Also, the numbers Woolsey uses don't make sense. For example, he counts the number of times the teams finished within 5 games of each other and cites that of evidence of a good rivalry. However, he doesn't seem to distinguish between seasons where both teams did well and both teams performed horribly. For the Mets-Phillies, 1992 season where the teams finished last and next-to-last in the NL East is counted and given just as much weight as the 2007 season where they finished 1st and second. How does this make any sense?
Thus I see no reason to view this source as having any weight for Wikipedia and would request that we remove it.Ultimahero (talk) 09:28, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Since no one objected I will remove the source.Ultimahero (talk) 07:51, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Forbes Source

message: This section seems to be the product of original research. The article seems to imply that the the Phillies wanted to capitalize on the lack of a NL team in New York, possibly by moving closer. Then, when Shea stepped in a new NL team was created that occupied NY. So the implication would seem to be that the Phillies ownership were bitter at Shea and the Mets for getting in their way. However, this is never stated in the article so it's unclear how this impacted the supposed rivalry. There are no quotes saying that the Phillies were mad afterwards. So trying to connect this to the rivalry seems to be original research.I've blocked it out (not deleted it) just like the racism section until sources can prove this.Ultimahero (talk) 00:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to have the section removed. William Shea had contacted the Phillies, but they turned down his suggestion about moving to New York. It had no impact on the rivalry. – SNIyer12, (talk), 13:09, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: William Shea

message: This section is also the product of original research. It suggests that past Phillies matchups between them and the Dodgers, Giants or Yankees impacted the rivalry with the Mets. However, there are no sources to back this up. (There is a source, The Playoff and Word Series Index, which confirms that the teams played each other, but no source that confirms a rivalry grew from those matchups.) It's a unsubstantiated assertion. Further, the article attempts to imply that rivalries from other sports (Eagles/Giants or Rangers/Flyers) somehow has an impact on this MLB matchup. However, there are once again no sources that back that claim up. It just a baseless assertion. Without competent sources this section should not remain. I've blocked it out (not deleted it) just like the racism section until sources can prove this.Ultimahero (talk) 00:49, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: On the regional proximity, both the Mets and the Phillies have fans in New Jersey, there's proximity between the two cities, and the natural rivalry. In 2004, there was an article in The Star-Ledger about what team Mets fans are able to rile up. One source: "METS CAN'T EVEN PICK A GOOD FIGHT", April 4, 2004, by David Waldstein. Sports section, page 9. A player on the Mets who grew up a Mets fan said in the article about rivalries in other sports: "You've got the proximity, a natural rivalry between the cities, and there are fans of both clubs in Jersey." It was also made evident during the press conference announcing the 2012 NHL Winter Classic, as it's a showdown between the New York Rangers and the Philadelphia Flyers. – SNIyer12, (talk), 13:25, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: How about some links, please?Ultimahero (talk) 00:01, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm searching for some links. – SNIyer12, (talk), 13:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Regional Proximity

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Mets–Phillies rivalry. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081103104223/http://www.nypost.com/seven/10312008/sports/mets/rollins_takes_shot_at_mets_136236.htm to http://www.nypost.com/seven/10312008/sports/mets/rollins_takes_shot_at_mets_136236.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)