Talk:Perpetual motion

message: I noticed the link to the UKPT statement has expired. Here is the new link:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/manual-of-patent-practice-mopp/section-4-industrial-application  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.24.78.85 (talk) 02:14, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK Patent Office link rot 

message: Buoyancy is another frequently misunderstood phenomenon. Some proposed perpetual-motion machines miss the fact that to push a volume of air down in a fluid takes the same work as to raise a corresponding volume of fluid up against gravity. These types of machines may involve two chambers with pistons, and a mechanism to squeeze the air out of the top chamber into the bottom one, which then becomes buoyant and floats to the top. The squeezing mechanism in these designs would not be able to do enough work to move the air down, or would leave no excess work available to be extracted.
The "Float Belt". The yellow blocks indicate floaters. It was thought that the floaters would rise through the liquid and turn the belt. However, pushing the floaters into the water at the bottom takes as much energy as the floating generates, and some energy is dissipated.
I would like to ask to remove the above article because the point of view of the article
is incorrect.
Machines that use buoyancy to extract useful work from water should not be considered perpetual motion machines.
The reasons are as follows: 
In terms of energy, the point of view that machines that convert or extract energy from water or fluids are considered perpetual motion machines contradicts scientific theory if water pressure is the form of energy from the Earth’s gravitational field.
Technically, the latest technology can allow air to float in the water and then travel back to the bottom along the air channel. Therefore, the above article is incorrect and should be deleted.
A perpetual motion machine is a hypothetical machine that can do work infinitely without an external energy source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
Energy conversion, the transformation of energy from forms provided by nature to forms that can be used by humans.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/energy-conversion
Scientific Theory
Hydrostatic pressure, the pressure exerted by a fluid at equilibrium at a given point within
the fluid, due to the force of gravity. 
Water, like all things on Earth, is pulled downward by the force of gravity. Every body of water has a certain weight, and this weight pushes downward on whatever is below it. Water pressure is the result of the weight of all the water above pushing down on the water below. https://www.edinformatics.com/math_science/hydrostatic_pressure.htm
The experiments have shown that water pressure is a form of energy.
Work is the energy transferred to or from an object via the application of force along a displacement.
As shown in the figure below, under the action of pressure, the movement of water squeezes and deforms the air bladder.
In Newton's law of universal gravitation, gravity was an external force transmitted by unknown means. 
In fluid, when fluid depth is constant, water pressure depends on the value of g of the Earth's gravitational field.
The gravitational field is an external energy source; therefore, pressure is not internal energy.
The reason for the pressure in the water is due to the action of the gravity field and is given by the expression：
P static fluid = ρgh  
where, ρ = m/V = fluid density, g =acceleration of gravity (g= 9.8 m/s2), h = depth of fluid
Accepted theory and fact: the value of g depends on the location, pressure varies with location, therefore pressure is not internal energy.
https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-3/The-Value-of-g
Experiments in space demonstrate that g ≈ 0 m/s2 and P ≈ 0. Only when the water is infinitely far away from the earth, g ≈ 0.
Human activities cannot reduce the mass of the earth. At the Earth's surface, the distance between the body of water and the Earth's center is nearly constant, so that the gravitational field keeps the value of g at g=9.8 m/s2. As per P=ρgh, the pressure in the water will remain constant.
It can be seen that the water pressure and the gravitational field are energy conservation relations. If the earth's gravitational field is infinite, the water pressure is also infinite.
Based on the above facts, machines that convert or extract energy from water or fluids should not be regarded as perpetual motion machines.
Energy conversion machines is actually similar to a windmill. Like the windmill, it took energy from the sun. https://uh.edu/engines/epi527.htm
Energy conversion machines get their energy from the gravitational field.
On the earth, water is ubiquitous, clean, readily accessible, a widespread and enduring source of energy.CAIVY (talk) 18:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: are you proposing a change here? and if so, what is it? --McSly (talk) 18:30, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: A machine that converts one form of energy into another form. CAIVY (talk) 19:26, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  In the section of Techniques 

message: Re . Since these devices use an external power source (the wind), I don’t think they fit within the scope of this article. Also there is no mention of perpetual motion that I could find in the source itself. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:25, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, entire section should be removed. Fails WP:RELEVANCE and also looks like WP:PROMOTION. 5Q5|✉ 10:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's kind of a newer idea.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvmvFGaSc6k Wikideas1 (talk) 23:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  And it still isn’t perpetual motion. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:51, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

text: Yeah thats the point of that section.Wikideas1 (talk) 01:26, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  If it’s claimed to be perpetual motion there will be multiple RS to cite for analysis and criticism of that claim. So far, I haven’t seen them. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:34, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

text: If you mean a heat engine, for an engine to produce work thermodynamics requires it to accept heat from a "hot" source, and exhaust waste heat into a "cold" reservoir, at a lower temperature.  For example, in a steam power plant this would be the boiler boiling water by burning coal, and the condenser condensing the steam back to water after it turns the turbines by radiating heat to the outside air.  The problem is that since the condenser is at a lower temperature than the boiler, heat will not flow spontaneously from the condenser to the boiler.  If you put in a metal reflector to try to reflect the heat from the condenser to the boiler, instead heat from the boiler would radiate to the condenser, losing energy.  To collect the lower temperature heat from the condenser and return it to the boiler would require energy.  The second law of thermodynamics says that if you tried to heat the boiler that way, instead of using energy from a fuel, the energy needed is always going to be greater than the energy produced by the turbine, so no net energy would be produced. This is called a perpetual motion machine of the 2nd kind, and the article discusses why it doesn't work. --ChetvornoTALK 00:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rotor powered wind powered vehicles section