Talk:Crop circle/Archive 3

message: Very interesting...After reading the article, I did not find any mention of any of the scientific findings. Even the most obvious observation, the bending of the node, was reported in the article as a bending just below the node. That is wrong, it is the node itself that bends due to an elongation of one side of the node. 
Also interesting is that it is only near the very end of the article that the suggestion of causes other than man made are presented.
THe entire article should be retitled to "hoaxed crop circles"
Tommy Mandel 04:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NO science to be found herein

message: Following are the sources which will be referenced in the article. I am including quotes here to minimize misunderstandings. This is ongoing work and should not be cnsidered complete. 
(A) Principle investigator/sources/reference
(1)Internet reference/source 
(1a)Website of organization using scientific methods/analysis:
http://www.bltresearch.com/index.html
Quoting directly from the website, this is their introduction:
BLT RESEARCH TEAM INC.
PURPOSE:     The BLT Research Team Inc.'s primary focus is crop circle research - the discovery, scientific documentation and evaluation of physical changes induced in plants, soils and other materials at crop circle sites by the energy (or energy system) responsible for creating them and to determine, if possible, from these data the specific nature and source of these energies. Secondly, our intent is to publish these research results in peer-reviewed scientific journals and to disseminate this information to the general public through lectures, mainstream articles and the internet. 
(1b)Reports of Analysis
CLAY-MINERAL CRYSTALLIZATION CASE STUDY:
1999 EDMONTON, ALBERTA, CANADA 
CROP FORMATION
http://www.bltresearch.com/xrd.html
They write in their conclusion: "Our present knowledge provides no explanation for these results. It is unlikely that an atmospheric plasma vortex system could account for the changes observed in the clay minerals. The data, however, rule out direct mechanical flattening of the crop circle plants by human beings utilizing planks or boards as an explanation for this event. Control studies carried out by BLT over the last several years have shown that significant node-length increase and expulsion cavities do not occur in crop flattened by boards or planks, human feet or cement rollers, or to crop which has been 100% over-fertilized. And, since either geologic pressure and/or intense heat is required to cause decrease in KI of the clay minerals--and neither can be produced by planks, boards, cement rollers, feet, etc.--this, or a similar mechanical mechanism, must be ruled out. It is our intent to carry out additional plant and soil research in an attempt to replicate the results of this XRD study, if funding can be obtained."
(1ba)LAB REPORT #86
1997 Maryland (USA) Control Study
This study examines the effects of over-fertilization of wheat and subsequent manual flattening throughout the growing season. 
(1bb)LAB REPORT #49
July, 1995: E. Meon "Crescents" (UK)
A classic demonstration of node-length increase and expulsion cavity incidence in flattened crop across the formation.
(1bc)LAB REPORT #97
June, 1997: Salem, Oregon (USA)
Node-length increases found in flattened crop and in standing crop outside formation; Beer-Lambert Principle applicable here. 
(1bd)LAB REPORT #51
June, 1995: Blueball, Maryland (USA)
Two non-geometrically downed areas with associated light phenomena and compass deviations noted at site; 203% increase in in node-length found
(1be)LAB REPORT #85
July, 1996: Littlebury Green (U.K.)
Node-length increases in both standing and downed crop within formation; increased growth-rate (up to 120%) as compared to controls.
(1bf)LAB REPORT #79
August, 1996: Logan, Utah (USA)
Node-length increases and expulsion cavities found; repressed seedling growth. Exploratory XRD exam of clay-minerals in soils indicates increased crystallinity
(1bg)LAB REPORT #100
August, 1997: Marion, New York (USA) 
Linear deposition of magnetic particles in soils, both inside flattened circles and outside flattened areas. 
(1bh)LAB REPORT #90
Sept, 1996: Rocanville, Sask. (CANADA) 
Linear deposition of magnetic particles in soils along North/South radii only; uniform distribution of particles along other radii
(1bi)LAB REPORT #113
Sept, 1999: Midale, Sask. (CANADA) 
Linear deposition of magnetic particles in soils, along all four sampled radii; node-length increases; battery drainage of Geiger Counter in circle. 
(1bj)LAB REPORT #121
July, 1997: Assen-Zuid, Holland (NETHERLANDS) 
Node-length decreases, germination abnormalities, and a deposited, white silicate substance w/multiple glassy beads in situ
(1bk)LAB REPORT #104
July, 1998: Cherhill, Wiltshire (U.K.)
Increased node-lengths, decreased seed weights & increased seedling growth in standing-plant centers; multiple dead insects adhering to standing plants within circles. 
(1bl)LAB REPORT #127
May, 2000: Klein-Kedingshagen (GERMANY)
Node-length increases, expulsion cavities, increased amounts of magnetic material in soils; greatest node-length increase in smallest circles
(1bm)LAB REPORT #122
Sept, 1999: Edmonton, Alberta (CANADA) 
Node-length increases (highest in smallest circle), expulsion cavities in all nodes (seen here for the first time), magnetic material in soils
(1bn)LAB REPORT #78
July, 1996: "Julia Set," Stonehenge (U.K.)
Reduced seed weights and evidence of mitochondrial damage; germination abnormalities and clear "spillover" effect into standing crop outside formation
(1c) Published papers
(1ca)Levengood, W.C. & Talbott, Nancy P. (1999)
Dispersion of energies in worldwide crop formations
Physiologia Plantarum 105:615-624
(1cb)Levengood, W.C. & Burke, John A. (1995)
Semi-Molten Meteoric Iron Associated with a Crop Formation
Journal of Scientific Exploration 9:2, 191-199 
(1cc)Burke, John A. (1998)
"The Physics of Crop Formations"
MUFON Journal, October l998, pp. 3-7 
(1cd)Levengood, W.C. (1994) 
Anatomical anomalies in crop formation plants
Physiologia Plantarum 92:356-363 
(2) Principle Investigator publications
(2aa) Colin Andrews is reqarded as the old man of crop circle research.
2a)Crop Circles: Signs of Contact Colin Andrews (2003) Career Press, New Jersey.  
ARTICLE INSERTION
Colin Andrews is one of the senior investigators of the crop circle phenomenon, He has authored two books, one of which is "Crop Circles, Signs of Contact". In 1999, the Rockefeller (sic) family asked Colin to investigate crop circles and report back to them. He did this in 1999 and 2000. His conclusion has become controversial in itself, disappointing to both sides. 
Concerning the now famous 80/20 statement, He writes in his book: "Based in our research, I concluded that approximately 80 percent of all the crop circles we investigated in England from 1999 through the year 2000 were manmade. This was one of the most important research findings to date because it cut to the core of what is truly important: the remaining 20 percent of the crop circles showed no sign of human hands." (p154) (2a)Crop Circles: Signs of Contact Colin Andrews (2003) Career Press, New Jersey.  
Help How do I make a reference?
(2b) The Deepening Complexity of Crop Circles: Scientific Research and Urban Legends. (2001) Eltjo H. Haselhoff, Ph.d.  Frog Ltd. Berjekey Ca.  
(2ba) Dr. Haselhoff is a practicing physicist specializing in optical imaging. 
quote: "Anyone claiming that all crop circles can be easily explained as the work of human pranksters, or hoaxers as they are usually called, reveals that he does not know what he is talking about."
(2c) Secrets in the Fields: The Science and Mysticism of Crop Circles. (2002) Freddy SIlva Hampton Roads, Charlottesvile VA.  
(2ca) Silva has written perhops the most comprehensive book on all aspects of crop circles. 
Quote:"The astronomer David Darling expresses this elegantly in his Equation of Eternity" 'The conscious mind is crucially involved in establishing what is real. That which reaches our senses is, at best, a confusion of phantasmal energies - not sights, not sounds, or any of the coherant qualities that we project outward onto the physical world. The Universe as we know it is built and experienced entirely within our heads, and until that mental construction takes place, reality must wait in the wings.'"
(2d) The Hypnotic Power of Crop Circles  (2004) Bert Janssen. Frontier Publishing, Netherlands  ISBN 1-93182-34-7
(2da) Janessen focus on the construction of crop circles, specifically how the geometrical elements hang together. 
Quote "Crop curckes. One of the biggest mystery of our times. They are obviously not the works of pranksters and practical jokers. They are also not a natural phenomenon. Nature doesn't think. But the thought, whoever or whatever is thinking it, has a very strong resemblance to the way in which we humans think. It is very much as if the phenonmenon is just another part of ourselves. One the one hand we are not responsible for the shapes in the crop, on the other hand we are." (p99)
(3) reports outside the pattern
(3a) Oregon Dried lake bed  "The Sri Yantra consisted of 13.3 miles of lines each ten inches wide and scored to a depth of three inches in the hardpan." 
"Ufologist's Don Newman and Alan Decker went to the site on the morning of September 15, 1990 and reported the symbol as being furrowed into the dry lake bed about 3" deep. The area was noticeably missing any signs of tire tracks or foot prints even though their own tire tracks left 1/4" deep marks on the crusty surface of the dry lake bed."
http://www.labyrinthina.com/sriyantra.htm
(3b) Australia figure can be seen from satellite photos
Tommy Mandel 02:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Hi, any information of so called Plasma Balls. Why most editors belief that this technology can not be created from humans. We have atleast information on it. We know about the plasma and at least so I know, in early 60s the Russian Military tested aircraft with Plasama technology to make them not visible from Radar. I think as human, we have know alot about the plasama. So why this suggestion, that these Plasama Balls are controlled by some "unknown" forces ?  phippi46 12:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: take a look:   --Striver 20:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because something is stated on television doesn't mean it's correct. You must remember that Fox had a show on the Moon landing hoax stating that we never landed on the moon (unless if you believe that as well?). You might consider reading that article if you want to see "scientific evidence" vs. scientists. This section may be of particular interest. Iamthebob 15:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting video

message: Tommy if you claim that not all circals were made by humans then it is also a claim from you. It is possible with the technology may be not visible to us at the moment that enables us as Humans to creat such circals, the purpose may be to creat a myth or atleast a story to cover something else. I hope your knowledte is far more deep then me, and you have worked alot on this subject and I appreciated that, however, I assume some time that there are some weapon systems that were placed or atleast suggested to be in Space for some obvious reasons, can be used to creats some of these detailed circlas. The technology may be the result of reversed enginering. I think this possiblity is more likely then to think that Alliens may have created some of these Circlas. Why, what sence it make when they travel far far to us and creat some circals, I think they may do something else rather just creating some circals. If they want to get our attention, there are other ways to get attentions. phippi46 21:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good, you touched pretty much all the bases. Zero-point energy, collective consciousness, aether, good old Putoff, a mention of quantum mechanics and a dismissive mention of "the Western mind" (didn't the Western mind develop quantum mechanics - but I digress). Hmmmmm; you forgot Tesla, surely you can drag Tesla in there somewhere. Whip up another 5,000 words and you can sell it as a pamphlet in New Age stores, alongside the razor-sharpening pyramids. - DavidWBrooks 11:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I come from the Eastern tradition, don't know about Tesla yet and since my research was before the new age stuff, I don't know what that is either. What is it about Tesla that makes the plasmaologists talk about him all the time? And what is the new age? I don't pay much attention to Western interpretations of Eastern philosophy, except for Quantum philosophy. From quantum science I went to general systems theory and from that I somehow moved to plasma. My primary interest is the balls of light. Haselhoff says because of their numerous sightings and iclusion in two peer reviewed ournals, the balls of light can legitimitly be considered a scientific fact. I think they are plasma balls. 
 Tommy Mandel 03:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tommy brightens my day every morning when I read his posts. As it becomes clearer and clearer where he gets his ideas it just boggles my mind. I initially thought it was purposeful trolling. But no troll would undermine his own case like tommy has done in the last 2 days, by bringing out all crazy guns at once. It seems possible to believe EVERYTHING, regardless of understanding. I love how the human mind works. Perhaps we are living in a dream, and I am simply limiting my own reality by not being crazy. Or perhaps its friday. --Darkfred Talk to me 15:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

text: "The sound of one hand clapping" 
is a Zen Koan which is not to be analyzed, rather it is an instruction. The Western mind, so say the sages writing in the East, will not understand this Koan, looking instead for some logical description and not finding that, dismiss it entirely. The Eastern wriings talk about the concept, Get it?  
Our thoughts, our inner reality, are concepts we have created with our mind. Every idea we have is a particularization of the whole, an "abstraction" Korzybski said. The Westerner mind would understand "The map is not the Territory I would hope."  So it is all a dream that we all made up. 
To know is to do. Knowing is doing. Doing is knowing. You know what I mean, you said you like to be creative. It is in this sense that our concepts, what we think about the world, our dreaming, is not real. They are only concepts, ideas, thoughts, formulas which have the interesting property of being able to be given to another. But the word is not the thing. 
What is concrete is what is happening Now. What is concrete is what I can do. If I can take a stick and measure the length of a node on one side, and measure it on the other side and compare the measurements side by side, I know something. If I repeat the measurement but on a node taken elsewhere, I can know if they are different or if they are the same. I can know the difference between a plant bent at an elongated node and a plant with a broken stem. 
That is why Einstein said the observation determines the theory and not the other way around. Korzybski said that sane science is to reverse the reversal of abstract first, observe second to the more sane position of observe first, then abstract. 
So what I am trying to do here is present those "observations" that have been made and published n the literature. 
"They" have "observed" Bent nodes. magnetics changes, dry soil, extreme precision, intricate interlacing and weaving, nitrates, clay crystalization, short lived radiation, swift construction, together typically in some crop circles. In some crop circles none of these are observed. 
Tommy Mandel 01:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Tommy, Plasma is a fourth form of super energetic matter. Plasma would destroy anything that came near it in a ball of fire. It would scorch the crops and annilite everything in its path. That is what plasma is. Please stop using the scientific term "Plasma" for whatever the hell you are talking about. Whatever it is it is not plasma. Even ball lightning destroys everything in its path. Do you have any idea of what you are talking about? --Darkfred Talk to me 06:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Exactly, Phippi46. How do we know the "Ball" theory works if we can't get it to be duplicated? And why doesn't the plasma destroy anything that comes near it? Why will it knock down crops? Why does it exist? I hope the answer is somewhere in a scientific journal or from another reputable source. Iamthebob 01:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How you know that 

message: I just went to the book store and found/bought Bert Janssen's book, The hypnotic powers of crop circles". He writes, not about the observations made so far, explaining that many others have done the job, he wants to approach it from the geometry aspect. He says that geometry itself cannot be used to tell if a circle is real or counterfeit, but once authenticity has been established, then the geometry is of the the utmost importance. He goes on to explain how the geometry could be a language and all we need to do is to understand the language. The language of Nature.
Tommy Mandel 03:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If he has no means for establishing authenticity, and doesn't refer to existing circles then what the hell is he talking about? More new-age mumbo jumbo. You just paid 20 bucks to buy a book that even the author admits is fantasy speculation. --Darkfred Talk to me 05:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes please, apply deconstructionism to crop circle design, that will help make more sense of it. Nothing helps explain a puzzle like turning to invented words and abstract unexplainable concepts. Ironically you've stumbled across my one other pet peeve. You've got to be kidding right? I can't believe this. You must be trolling, a true believer and a deconstructionist!?! Haha its like a pseudo-intellectual bomb, everyone clear the building and empty your minds. --Darkfred Talk to me 22:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: It's the geometry...

message: This page is 120 KB long, produced in about a week. Wikipedia isn't a server to host discussion forums - can you guys take this somewhere else? Start a MySpace page or something. - DavidWBrooks 22:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: lets archive again, I started a while back, see the top of the page. --Darkfred Talk to me 22:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we cut the discussion forum?