Talk:Yue Fei/Archive 1

message: I uploaded a picture of Yue Fei, but I think the image should be cropped and resized, personally. Can anyone with image-editting software edit it to make it look nicer? --Yuje 03:18, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

message: is there a english translation of Manjiang Hong?
Man Chiang Hung literally means “whole river is red” was written by a Sung dynasty general named Yueh Fei, who vowed to crush the Jurchen occupiers of the northern China. He wrote this poem to express his patriotic sorrows about his weakened country.
::There are English translations, but all of the translators are quite quesy about the flesh-eating and blood-drinking part. -- Миборовский U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai! 00:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manjiang Hong in English 

message: I found the following sentence untrue to the historical account.
:He and his son, Yue Yun, were sentenced to death and executed on charges that were not proven but instead "could be true" (Chinese: 莫須有; Pinyin: mò xū yǒu). The phrase has entered the Chinese language as an expression to refer to fabricated charges.
This sentence implies that there was actually an unproven charge of his crime.  But in many references, it was said that the reason for his death sentence was 莫須有 which literally means "none needed".  A "none needed" crime is quite different from a crime that is unproven.  To illustrate the difference, considering a person was accused of murder and then executed before the crime was proven, then it was merely a loop hole in the legal procedure but murder is still a real capital crime if proven.  However if a person's charge was "none needed", it was a clearly an abuse of autheority by ignoring any legal system.  I've never seen 莫須有 used in modern language to refer to fabricated charges, punished unfairly without reason, yes; fabricated charges, no. Kowloonese 00:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  charge or no charge? 

message: I capitalized Yue Fei's name in the first sentence because the paragraph itself was too "busy". Their is so much info about the traditional and simplified spellings of his name that it would had to distinguish anything. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 13:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up 

message: Over the years, I have come across two different legends about Yue Fei:
1) Guan Di visited Song Dynasty Emperor Huizong in a dream and told him that the hero Zhang Fei had been reborn as a child named "Yo Fei" (Yue Fei). This child would grow up to fight the invaders from the north. (I read this in passing, while doing research on another matter. I'm still trying to find the exact page on the net so I can source it onto the main Yue Fei article).
2) In a previous life, Yue Fei was a Peng (Roc) who poked out the eye of a dragon who lived in the Yellow River. Years later, the Peng was reborn as our hero. The dragon flooded the river in an effort to kill young Yue Fei, but failed. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Two Legends... 

message: I've added the name of Yue Fei's father along with the chinese characters and added a "possible" birth and death date. I'm not sure if it is correct, but I put a questions mark on it to show that. According to Yue Fei's biography, Yue Huo was "...nearly fifty years of age" (47, 48, 49?) when Yue Fei was born. I just subtracted 49 from 1103 to get the date. If anyone has a more exact date please post it! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Today, I deleted the date I put for Yue Huo's birth and death. The reason I did this is because some chinese records show his father didn't drown in the Yellow River flood, but several years later in 1122.  (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have again posted a date for Yue Huo, based on historical records for which I've cited a link to. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 08:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yue Huo, Biological father of Yue Fei ... 

message: The problem with any modern Yue Fei info is most of it is based on popular chinese legends, which have, overtime, become accepted as historical fact. One good example would be the legend of Yue Fei and his mother floating down the river in a clay urn. Tangyin county, home of Yue Fei, is nearly 60 miles north from the Yellow River! The new info I've posted comes from a Chinese webpage. I believe this is the real deal. However, I am not going to mess with this page since my possible actions would surely be refuted by people who actually believe they know what happened to Yue Fei 903 years ago. I personally believe this page should be split into "Historical" and "Legend"!!!
:Even in the more "historically plausible" history, the Yellow River floods Yue Fei's village. But since the Yellow River is some 60 miles south of Tangyin County it would be impossible for this to happen. However, a distributary of the Wei He, being the largest tributary of the Yellow River, runs by Tangyin County. There is a Henan map available on Encarta but you have to "ZOOM IN" towards Anyang at the top. This could explain why his family's crops were destroyed eventhough their village was so far away from the Yellow River. I've heard other sources say that it was raining very heavily just after Yue Fei's birth.
:Although it supposedly flooded all of the time, I have yet to find any chinese records that concretely show that the Yellow River actually flooded in 1103. The closest I've come to is 1143, which further devistated local farmers on top of an earthquake. I don't remember the link, but I've read a source that said modern Kaifeng actually sits on 25 feet of silt from where it used to be (in reference to which dynasty I don't know).(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical fact or fiction? 

message: In a chinese XingYiQuan book from 1929 (Xing2 Yi4 Quan2 Shu4 Jiang3 Yi4), I have come across the following phrase "岳忠武王形意拳要訣" as a title of one of the chapters.  This chapter appears to be about Yue Fei being the founder of Xingyiquan, but as I read those characters they say "yue4 zhong1 wu3 wang2 xing2 yi4 quan2 yao4 jue2" or "General Yue Zhong founded xingyiquan".  Anyone know if 岳忠 is another name used for Yue Fei generally, or is this a one-off use? -- Medains 07:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 忠, zhōng = Loyalty, devotion, fidelity. I'm guessing that they were calling him "Loyal Yue" because of his loyalty to the Song Empire. It sounds like a nickname.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, actually ancient Chinese emperors, officials and generals were given honorable titles after their death. 忠武 is such a title for Yue Fei, which means "loyal and brave". 王 means "king". Took 06:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yue Fei's offically recognized posthumous name was Wumu (武穆). In the martial world, he is known as "King Wumu". (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 10:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 忠武 is another one. See the Chinese wikipedia article. Took 22:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation and another alias? 

message: It has been said that Yue Fei won over 120 battles, but I've yet to find many references to his battles.  This site lists a "Battle of Yancheng" is which he fought the larger army of Wanyan Zongbi and won - amoungst mentions of other military successes.  The List of Chinese battles lists only 3 battles in the Song Dynasty period - this surely must be addressed! -- Medains 14:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: General Zhaoyun, founder of the "China History Forum", has posted a long and detailed history of the Song Dynasty.  CLICK HERE!. Later in this same history, he gives a detailed personal and battle history for Yue Fei. CLICK HERE!. (In fact, he is the one who supplied me with the information about Yue Fei's spear teacher Chen Guang.) I would have written a much longer section of his battle history, but it is so complex and I think my hands would fall off before I was finished. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Battles

message: Yue Fei has two biographies, one historical and one fictional. The historical biography was compiled in 1345 along with the “History of the Song”, which is one of the Twenty-Four Histories. It is called Yue Fei Zhuan (岳飞传 – "Yue Fei Biography"). The second, a fictional biography, was originally written between the years 1661-1735. It is called Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan (說岳全傳 - "Speak Yue's Entire Biography"). This has its own page on Chinese Wikipedia.
I think these should be added to the article. But I’m too busy to add it myself. So I’m writing this in the hopes that someone will do it for me. For more information about the biographies, see my article on Zhou Tong (monk), Yue Fei's archery teacher. If you go to Zhou Tong (monk)#External links you can read the full historical biography (Chinese only). I used an internet translator as my Chinese SUCKS!
I want to stress that the "historical" biography does NOT mention Eagle Claw or any other kind of boxing style. It just comments on how good of an archer Yue Fei was. The "fictional" biography does NOT mention Eagle Claw either. It is important to note that this book was written from popular folktales that were common among the people of the day. Since Eagle Claw is not mentioned, this might lead some to believe that Eagle claw was not created until centuries after Yue Fei's death.(Ghostexorcist 21:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yue Fei's biographies 

message: the "Qin hui" 秦晖 of 1955 is the not same "Qin hui" 秦檜 of song dynasty!  秦晖, a honorable historian and intellectual of the communist China is rollling in his grave! mis-identified as the name synomynous to traitor in the Chinese culture! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.199.79.107 (talk) 02:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you getting upset about? I can tell you that the Qin Hui article you are referring to was written long after this one was. One of the original authors opened a link with Qin Hui's name so if a future article was written about him; it would automatically link back to this one. But it seems an article about the modern Qin Hui was written before the ancient Qin Hui. Calm down.(Ghostexorcist 02:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Qin Hui (!) 

message: I've made some drastic improvements to the page. This includes new, verifiable material about his life, A LOT of citations and several pictures. However, it still needs work. I plan on expanding the martial arts section. Or I could just link it to my article about the Military and civilian combat arts of Zhou Tong. I've also increased the article's rating to "B-class". (Ghostexorcist 23:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead needs to be expanded. I'll let someone else try to summarize the article. I'd rather dig for and find the material instead of summarizing it! (Ghostexorcist 06:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvements

message: I remember from a while ago when they down-graded Yue Fei's hero status because the Jurchen/Manchu people that he fought against are now considered ethnically "Chinese". I would love to add this very important info to the page, but I can’t find a good enough source to support the claim. Could someone help me find some material on this subject. An article from a Chinese newspaper would be great, but my Chinese is horrible. (Ghostexorcist 00:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, his status in the PRC is that of a 民族英雄, or an ethnic hero, and he is considered a hero of the Han Chinese only, and not all of China. I don't believe this is true of the ROC, though. For example, they have naval ships named after national heros, Yue Fei among them (others being Zheng He, Ban Chao, Zhang Qian, Qi Jiguang, and Koxinga). --Yuje 01:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  民族英雄 means national hero. Citation needed if you advocate that hye is not considered a hero. --Sumple (Talk) 02:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defunct Hero Status 

message: In official history of the Song Dynasty, Qin Hui was the declared villain in the saga. But was he really? Or was he just trying to please his boss by carrying out his wishes? What wouuld a minister gain from this execution of a general? What would the emperor stand to lose should the war be won? It is very obvious that the ultimate villain should have been the emperor, but that obviously could not have been mentioned in the Song history. However, if Yue Fei had not obeyed him and rescued the old emperor and crown prince from Kai Feng, history would have been re-written. This emperor would be seen as no better than Sui Yang Ti. But well, as it is no one would or could take up Qin Hui's case for the next nine hundred years. And Yue Fei either selfishly or stupidly chose to martyr himself to become an immortal Confucianist hero rather than save his country.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chaconne Passacaglia (talk • contribs) 09:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not a forum, so don't speculate about what may or may not have happened. Feel free to contribute to the page. (Ghostexorcist 11:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the whole problem with this page is that it is a random collection of quotes from (doubtful) sources. As a way to understand what really happened (or can be realistically assumed by historans) this page is well-nigh worthless. Laca 14:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which sources are doubtful? If you can do better, update it. If not, stop complaining. (Ghostexorcist 18:54, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources for a legendary hero are all doubtful - but at least they are sources! :)  Verifiability is the biggest problem but is unlikely to be resolved any time soon, so as long as we ensure that we do have sources then we're improving the article for later readers.  If you can verifiably dispute the veracity of a source, please speak up and give specifics. -- Medains 08:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official History vs What Could Have Actually Happened 

message: I'm trying to squish all of the large clumps of random book quotations into fluid paragraphs. I've already finished 95% of the martial arts section and I plan on doing the one about his death and his martial training next. Then I'll do his early life stuff. (Ghostexorcist 08:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still need to take care of the rest of the book quotations. I've just been too busy to do it. (Ghostexorcist 00:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clumps of quotations 

message: For some reason I am having problems editing the page. I have an active user account and I can edit any page I want except for this page. My last edit was a test and I cannot revert it back. (74.129.187.173 07:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem editing page 

message: I've editted these for readability - even changing the "title" of one.  I'm guessing that the titles are translations, so hopefully I've kept true to the meaning.  Some of these are principles found in more modern forces (the British during the Napoleonic wars valued training highly and the leadership were strongly against pillage, knowing that they needed the good will of the locals) and it might be possible to find articles that describe these principles thoroughly and add some linking. -- Medains 09:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Six principles 

message: There's a lot of references here - sometimes multiple references for a single statement.  It's good that we have so many references, but citing multiple references for one sentence makes the reference list huge and not look very relevant to the material.  It might be worth trimming some references, picking the "best" reference for the statement, to make the reference list shorter and more directly relevant.
For example the statement "He taught this qigong to his soldiers to help keep their bodies strong and well-prepared for battle." is worth referencing, but I'd go with "A Tooth from the Tiger's Mouth: How to Treat Your Injuries with Powerful Healing Secrets of the Great Chinese Warrior" over "Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing" as the reference, since the latter seems to have less relevance to Yue Fei from the title.
Reference 57 and 60 (at the time of comment) are also the same reference (which I'd fix if I had more time atm) :) -- Medains 09:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In regards to the source that states Yue taught his soldiers qigong, the majority of that info comes from the "Qigong Meditation" book. I've taken care of the duplicate citation on 57 and 60. (Ghostexorcist 19:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference Explosion