Talk:Jay Robert Nash

message: ===Author of source material says changes needed===
*I came across this entry in connection with the Lisbon earthquake of 1755, and since I am the person directly involved, Theresa Carpinelli, I would like to correct some information in the article, as well as to bring you up to date on some recent developments. Here are my proposed changes to the entry under the above heading:
When Theresa Carpinelli, a Catholic radio host based in Ohio, read in a Washington Post article by Jose Antonio Vargas, accessed May 20, 2006. that after the 1755 Lisbon earthquake "priests roamed the streets, hanging those they believed had incurred God's wrath," she requested that the reporter provide a credible source for the claim. Vargas explained that he originally saw the allegation in the Wikipedia article on the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, as it appeared on December 30, 2004,[ accessed May 20, 2006. He intended to have a church historian he was interviewing for the article verify the allegation, but because of a miscommunication, the historian did not know he was being asked to verify anything. He later stated that he could not have verified the allegation because he knew nothing of Portuguese history. The allegation about the priests remained unverified. The 1755 Lisbon earthquake article had no reference, and the allegation was subsequently removed. 
Because there still remained no reference, and newspapers and authors around the country were reporting the allegation they picked up from the “Washington Post” article, Carpinelli asked Vargas for another credible source. Vargas then provided a quotation from Jay Robert Nash's book Darkest Hours: A Narrative Encyclopedia of Worldwide Disasters—From Ancient Times to the Present,” which won a "Best Reference" citation from the American Library Association. The passage from Nash's book alleged that in the aftermath of the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, "Battalions of priests roved through the debris of Lisbon looking for heretics to burn, such as the previously mentioned Chase,…" p339.
While Nash’s book contained a very large bibliography, the allegation about the priests “looking for heretics to burn” was not footnoted. Carpinelli was unable to find a reference to priests “looking for heretics to burn” in the eyewitness accounts of Thomas Chase, published in both the Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, Volume 88, July-December, 1860, or in the “The Gentlemen’s Magazine”, London, February-April, 1813, as quoted in “The Lisbon Earthquake of 1755; British Accounts, Lisbon: The British Historical Society of Portugal, 1990,” and other sources she checked from Nash’s bibliography. But she did not check every reference in the large “Earthquakes” section of the bibliography, since the allegation in Nash’s book did not support the “priests hanging” allegation. 
Rather, Nash’s book undermined it, since Nash, like Robert K. Reeves in “The Lisbon Earthquake of 1755: Confrontation between the Church and the Enlightenment in 18th Century Portugal,” explains that after the quake, even the prisoners were running free, and there were problems with “looting, rapine, and murder.” The king ordered that gallows be erected in several parts of the city, and criminals hung on the spot, to deter more crime. This explanation for the hangings which occurred after the earthquake is supported by numerous other scholars, as well as eyewitnesses, such as Thomas Chase. So Jay Robert Nash’s “Darkest Hours” encyclopedia did not provide a support for the “hanging priests” allegation. Polycarp7 18:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If your original article about all of this has been removed b/c of factual issues then I believe the entire section on this should be removed (and I will be doing this shortly). Wikipedia does not do original research and relies on the validity of our sourced material and does not serve to pass on false allegations against people. In this case, since the information in your article was wrong, there is no reason for it to be here. In fact, I am going to add info about these false allegations against Nash to the article b/c it shows how Nash was wronged by all of this. I'm deeply disturbed that the article on this was wrong b/c I, like all editors here, have to rely on our references for information. I appreciate you sharing this information. I must also ask you not to remove the last reference I have to your article b/c it is a valid reference, only this time it is in support of how you made unfounded allegations against Nash.--Alabamaboy 16:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the quote. I am going to leave in the referenced link to your article, though. That way people will know the original citation of your article. Even if the article has now been pulled, the reference should retain the original link b/c the link is what was used when the original reference was cited. This is standard citation format. Best, --Alabamaboy 22:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your kind words. I must state, though, that I'm a bit nervous with you editing the article with regards to your own situation. I'm going to ask another editor or two to look over your edits and see if they are comfortable with them. Best,--Alabamaboy 13:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate you letting us know about all of this. Best,--Alabamaboy 13:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nash connected to Lisbon earthquake misinformation

message: *I came across this entry in connection with the Lisbon earthquake of 1755, and since I am the person directly involved, Theresa Carpinelli, I would like to correct some information in the article, as well as to bring you up to date on some recent developments. Here are my proposed changes to the entry under the above heading:
When Theresa Carpinelli, a Catholic radio host based in Ohio, read in a Washington Post article by Jose Antonio Vargas, accessed May 20, 2006. that after the 1755 Lisbon earthquake "priests roamed the streets, hanging those they believed had incurred God's wrath," she requested that the reporter provide a credible source for the claim. Vargas explained that he originally saw the allegation in the Wikipedia article on the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, as it appeared on December 30, 2004,[ accessed May 20, 2006. He intended to have a church historian he was interviewing for the article verify the allegation, but because of a miscommunication, the historian did not know he was being asked to verify anything. He later stated that he could not have verified the allegation because he knew nothing of Portuguese history. The allegation about the priests remained unverified. The 1755 Lisbon earthquake article had no reference, and the allegation was subsequently removed. 
Because there still remained no reference, and newspapers and authors around the country were reporting the allegation they picked up from the “Washington Post” article, Carpinelli asked Vargas for another credible source. Vargas then provided a quotation from Jay Robert Nash's book Darkest Hours: A Narrative Encyclopedia of Worldwide Disasters—From Ancient Times to the Present,” which won a "Best Reference" citation from the American Library Association. The passage from Nash's book alleged that in the aftermath of the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, "Battalions of priests roved through the debris of Lisbon looking for heretics to burn, such as the previously mentioned Chase,…" p339.
While Nash’s book contained a very large bibliography, the allegation about the priests “looking for heretics to burn” was not footnoted. Carpinelli was unable to find a reference to priests “looking for heretics to burn” in the eyewitness accounts of Thomas Chase, published in both the Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, Volume 88, July-December, 1860, or in the “The Gentlemen’s Magazine”, London, February-April, 1813, as quoted in “The Lisbon Earthquake of 1755; British Accounts, Lisbon: The British Historical Society of Portugal, 1990,” and other sources she checked from Nash’s bibliography. But she did not check every reference in the large “Earthquakes” section of the bibliography, since the allegation in Nash’s book did not support the “priests hanging” allegation. 
Rather, Nash’s book undermined it, since Nash, like Robert K. Reeves in “The Lisbon Earthquake of 1755: Confrontation between the Church and the Enlightenment in 18th Century Portugal,” explains that after the quake, even the prisoners were running free, and there were problems with “looting, rapine, and murder.” The king ordered that gallows be erected in several parts of the city, and criminals hung on the spot, to deter more crime. This explanation for the hangings which occurred after the earthquake is supported by numerous other scholars, as well as eyewitnesses, such as Thomas Chase. So Jay Robert Nash’s “Darkest Hours” encyclopedia did not provide a support for the “hanging priests” allegation. Polycarp7 18:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If your original article about all of this has been removed b/c of factual issues then I believe the entire section on this should be removed (and I will be doing this shortly). Wikipedia does not do original research and relies on the validity of our sourced material and does not serve to pass on false allegations against people. In this case, since the information in your article was wrong, there is no reason for it to be here. In fact, I am going to add info about these false allegations against Nash to the article b/c it shows how Nash was wronged by all of this. I'm deeply disturbed that the article on this was wrong b/c I, like all editors here, have to rely on our references for information. I appreciate you sharing this information. I must also ask you not to remove the last reference I have to your article b/c it is a valid reference, only this time it is in support of how you made unfounded allegations against Nash.--Alabamaboy 16:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Author of source material says changes needed

message: *I agree completely that the entire section should be removed - but since I have done no work on this article, I wanted to leave that up to those who have done the bulk of the work. I believe that what you have written now adequately reflects the facts, however, my error was normal human error, since I did check the references in Nash's bibliography that were obviously related to the Lisbon earthquake. His work included entries about dozens of other earthquakes, but was not delineated, so there was no way of knowing which works were the source of which earthquake. My "unfounded allegations" were unintentional, and we have addressed the issue as soon as we realized it. I am not happy that you have felt the need to reproduce the very words I wrote that, by mutual agreement between me and Catholic Exchange, are the reason we pulled my articles - so that they will not serve to continue to be a source of distress to the very person agrieved by my error. I will ask that you remove the quote, and suffice to say that I made an error that is being corrected. As you yourself said, "since the information in your article was wrong, there is no reason for it to be here." Please remove my quote - I am retracting it, so there is no reason for you to use it. Also, the link will not work, which was the other reason I removed it yesterday. Thank you for considering that by leaving the quote in, it will continue to be a source of pain to Mr. Nash. It would also be nice if you would mention that I also stated in my article that Nash's work actually undermined the "priests hanging people" allegation. Polycarp7 19:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the quote. I am going to leave in the referenced link to your article, though. That way people will know the original citation of your article. Even if the article has now been pulled, the reference should retain the original link b/c the link is what was used when the original reference was cited. This is standard citation format. Best, --Alabamaboy 22:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your kind words. I must state, though, that I'm a bit nervous with you editing the article with regards to your own situation. I'm going to ask another editor or two to look over your edits and see if they are comfortable with them. Best,--Alabamaboy 13:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion on changes to article b/c source material mistaken

message: After reviewing the situation by e-mail with another editor, it was pointed out to me that we should not be referencing this talk page in the article. As a result, I have removed that reference and any mention of your apology. While I believe you are indeed Theresa E. Carpinelli, we have no definate proof of this and so can't reference the apology in the article. Perhaps Catholic Exchange could put an apology or statement on their website, which we could then reference. This other editor also agreed with me that you should not be editing the statement in this article about yourself b/c that is a conflict of interest. Do feel free, though, to continue to raise any issues with the article on this talk page. I will then take anything you say into account. Best,--Alabamaboy 15:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate you letting us know about all of this. Best,--Alabamaboy 13:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shouldn't reference a talk page

message: If you want to see the purest speculation, here it is: "It turned out, though, that Carpinelli evidently did not check Nash's actual source, causing the The Catholic Exchange (sic) to pull her article from the internet."
The clear implication here is that Ms. Carpinelli or her editors, after seeing Nash's actual source for his claim that priests went around burning heretics in the wake of the Lisbon earthquake, were persuaded that it was a valid one and, at that point, she had to fall on her sword in what looks like a huge overreaction even if this were true, and took everything she had written about the matter down from the Internet.  If Alabamaboy or Mr. Nash or anyone would be so kind as to share with the general public what that actual original source is and what it says, I might agree that the Wikipedia site as it now stands fairly represents the situation.  However, until such time comes, I have to say that this just looks like a big bluff on Nash's part, or on his behalf, and the site as I modified it most accurately represents the situation.  It would be nice if some other fair-minded person would put it back like I had it.  If, for whatever reason, that doesn't happen, I promise that I shall continue to try to make this Wikipedia page reflect the truth as I see it.
::Since Carpinelli disagrees with you, and you have no sources to back up what you say, your words remain speculation. While I'm glad you want the article to "reflect the truth as I see it," that is Wikipedia:POV and not what Wikipedia is about. Best, --Alabamaboy 01:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While you are correct that Mr Shi does make such claims, it would be quite prudent to point out that he offers no sources, no detail of his research methods, and no attempt at scholarly justification. Is there a chance you could find a better source to support your claim? Luna Santin 06:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by Alabamaboy 

message: I have put in a request for mediation on all of this at Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation#Jay_Robert_Nash. I strongly recommend that all editors involved in the discussion here sign on to the mediation. If anyone wishes to add any issues to the list of items to be mediated, do so under the "Additional issues to be mediated" subhead. I'd recommend keeping the additional issues to one sentence b/c the mediators dislike long or rambling statements. All of us will have a chance later to make a complete statement on all of this. Best, --Alabamaboy 14:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for mediation 

message: I have a proposal which, perhaps, will end the need for mediation (although I still encourage people to agree to mediation b/c this may not be resolved). While I still believe the info on the questions about Nash's accuracy and Carpinelli's retraction are worth covering in this article, I  do not believe any of this is worth all the anguish we are going through. Why don't we simply cut all info regarding any questions about Nash's work and Carpinelli's retraction, along with the info about the Wikipedia lawsuit (b/c Wikipedia is the source of info about Wikipedia perhaps being sued it probably shouldn't be here). I have done all of this at Jay Robert Nash/temp so people can see what the article would look like. As an admin, I can also delete all previous versions of this article from the history, so only the new version would be here. Is this a decent compromise? It should address the concerns of everyone here.--Alabamaboy 17:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll have to think on this one a bit. I'm hesitating to say yes, but nothing in me is screaming about it, either. It all does seem notable in one form or another, but this does seem to be causing everybody involved some hassle or other. One other thing that's come to mind, I hadn't realized until now how very recently some of this took place, and part of me is wondering if it's unwise to cover such current events, especially when they don't seem to be finished unfolding just yet. So, not sure yet. Do we need to delete the history, or is that an optional aspect? Luna Santin 17:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We don't have to delete the history. I just thought I'd offer (what with Carpinelli appearing to be worried b/c of the threatened lawsuit and all). I believe that the threat of lawsuit surrounding Carpinelli lets this article fall under one of the "extreme circumstances" mentioned at Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators#Version_deletion.--Alabamaboy 17:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since we seem to have agreement here, I will place the revised article in the main article space. I will also leave the talk page as is. Thanks to everyone. I will leave the request for mediation up for another day or two (just to make sure that no new issues come up with all of this--if they do, we have to go down the mediation road). Best, --Alabamaboy 13:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This solution may be the most convenient but it fails to resolve the "actual" source the "burning priests" calumny by Nash.  Perhaps the article should note that Nash has no known source.  If not for the trouble he caused Jay Robert Nash would have remained forever obscure. Thomist 23:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A modest proposal