Talk:German language/Archive 2

message: IMO the translation is wrong, should be "To the Christian nobility of German nationality". Otherwise Luther would have written "der deutschen Nation". This use of the Genitiv is rare but still exists (Schüler französischer Sprache, i.e. students who speak French or Einwanderer nordafrikanischer Herkunft, that is immigrants of North African origin. Here you can even see the Genitiv translated with the English of). --217.233.255.205 21:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He is incorrect on this, it is similar to Heiliges Römisches Reich deutscher Nation, which is roughly Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation in English, as Holy Roman Empire of German Nationality sounds very ackward. Ameise -- chat 17:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. IMVHO, that is wrong. (I nearly wrote in all caps...) Heiliges Römisches Reich deutscher Nation does not translate to Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation but to Holy Roman Empire of German Nationality or to The Roman Empire whose citizens are Germans or something like that. Deutscher Nation translates to with German nationality an not to of the German nation. I don't know whether it counts that you are de-2 and I am de-m. However, I do believe that I am right. It does not count that it would sound awkward. To the Christian nobility that have a German nationality also expresses my understanding of the Lutherian expression. However, please wait. That is, again, only my very humble opinion. I might be wrong. I will ask the scholars in the German wikipedia (I am "Benutzer:Gnom") and come back with an answer, okay? 85.176.24.60 12:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we go: To sum it up, Ameise won. The discussion lead to the verdict that it might be more correct to say "To the German Christian nobility". However, they also said that we should also accept translations that are commonly used (commonly used as in Encyclopedia Britannica). The final verdict was "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!". Thank you for the fair discussion, in the German Wiki, there is way too much hack'n'slay-mentality on the talk pages. Cheers, -- 85.176.3.91 21:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yay, I won without ever getting a chance to defend myself! Ameise -- chat 02:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  An den Christlichen Adel deutscher Nation 

message: I removed this image because it shows Dutch and Frisian as German dialects, they are and never were dialects of German therefore this map is flawed and should not be displayed on wikipedia.
:Here: I have -gasp- fixed the image! Ameise -- chat 16:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: I've listed this article at WP:GA/R. --LucVerhelst 12:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:GA]] 

message: The subsection has the following spelling mistake: "Maria Taslomka". It should be "Marietta Slomka".
I would appreciate a possibility to correct this.
Cakeandicecream 19:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Source? Ameise -- chat 19:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Never mind, he's right. Ameise -- chat 19:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Angr 19:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Conversely, and realy just for discussion's sake, pronunciation changes greatly depending on on the area where the word is said. For example, the way that people of the American west coast pronounce the O in the word "hope" and the people of Franken, Bayern, and Schwaben pronounce the O in the word "hof" are very similar. Obviously, the accent is somewhat different, but for a novice's general pronunciation purposes this is correct. If they intend to pursue any higher German, they'll hopefully pick up a correct accent. I guess what it comes down to is that if I were to drop my American accent and say "hope", I would pronounce the O like the one in "hof"...
Xeinart 19:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonology 

message: Sorry to have to bother you again. There's another error of mine in the beginning of the above subsection:
"According to the rule the e in the name Mecklenburg, for example, should be pronounced short somewhat like the English "a" in MacDonalds"..."
should read:
According to the rule the e in the name Mecklenburg, for example, should be pronounced short somewhat like the English "e" in egg ...
Cakeandicecream 06:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, though I used IPA and also changed the examples a bit. I used "bet" rather than "egg" because in some accents of English the word "egg" actually has the "long a" sound. And for the long [e:] I specified a Scottish English accent because Scottish English, like German, has a long monophthong, while most other major accents (RP, General American, General Australian) have a diphthongs for the "face" vowel. Angr 07:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, first make sure you have a font installed that includes the "IPA extensions" part of Unicode. Then make sure you're using a real browser, not Internet Explorer. See International Phonetic Alphabet#Technical note for more info and for a list of fonts that include IPA. Angr 08:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonology 

message: There are two languages that derive from the German language that should be mentioned in this article. One is the pidgin Unserdeutsch or Rabaul Creole German in Papua New Guinea, the other is Küchendeutsch in Namibia. --217.232.90.76 08:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Creoles and Pidgins 

message: If I unprotect the page now, will the edit war resume? No one's discussed the issues in like four days. Angr 12:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be unlikely. Rex 12:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I suppose User:Rex Germanus is referring to the fact that he submitted like 2 3RR reports on me within 2 days trying to get me banned -- luckily for him (I was going to file a harassment report) my basement flooded. Ameise -- chat 02:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotection? 

message: The GA dispute for this article has ended, with what I think was a two to zero vote, I wasn't really sure what the "wait for us to fix it if you keep it as a GA" comment counted for as a vote, but even if it was two to one, this article still seems to have but one reference concerning demographics. Even if the dispute wasn't a good majority, most reviwers probably would of just delisted this article immedietly when they came across it anyway, there really must be good references to have a Good Article. Dispute archived at: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 7. Homestarmy 18:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA dispute

message: ...is, nicely put, full of inaccuracies.
* Ä: In its short form comes close to the e of the English word bed. 
: That would make it [], whereas in fact it's []
Its long form has no equivalent in English [...]
: Take American "bad" []or [] 
* Ö: In its long form comes close to the ir sound in the English word "bird". (Ex. Brötchen = roll (to eat)).
: This is correct for the Rhine region, whereas in standard German it's []
 * Ü: In its long form comes close to the yu sound in the English words "mule" or "music". 
: You can hear this pronounciation [] only from Russian immigrants, actually. 
[...] [Ü] is pronounced similarly to the French "u".
: That's closer. []
 * C standing alone is not a germanic letter. It never occurs at the beginning of a germanic word. In borrowed words together with "h"... 
: which makes it "Ch", as follows.
...there is no single agreement on the pronunciation. It's pronounced either as the English "sh" [...]
: This, again, is Rhine or Hessian dialect. The correct pronunciation is [] 
* Ch occurs most often but has no equivalent in English. There are two slightly different ways of pronunciation in High German: After e and i it sounds a bit like the "h" in "huge", but is pronounced more sharply and strongly (Ex. mich = me). After a, o and u (dark vowels) it is as if you tried to pronounce k without cutting off the air above the tongue. (Ex. Rache = revenge). 
: Suggestion: as in Scottish "ach".
In western Germany (Rheinland) it is in any position pronounced as sch equivalent to the English sh in the word shoe. In this area distinguishing between such words as Kirchen (Churches) and Kirschen (cherries) is left up to the context.
: Yes, but "Rache" remains [], so it is not "in any position"
    
*S is pronounced as /z/ as in "Zebra" (Ex. Sonne = Sun)
: only if a vowel follows. before a consonant, it's []
* It should be mentioned that all voiceless plosives (p, t, k) are aspirated []
Since I am not a phonologist, it would be great if anyone else with sufficient knowledge of phonetics AND the German language could rewrite the section...
-- megA 15:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the old problem. German is not really standardized. Almost everybody speaks with at least a slight dialectal accent, also increasingly on tv. It seems to me that [ˈʃtɛtə] is correct according to Deutsche Bühnenaussprache, since ä is followed by two consonants. I myself (trained with Bühnenaussprache) am torn between [ɛ] and [ɛː]. But my birtplace is in southern Germany, where [ɛː] is used. Slomka's [eː] is clearly influenced by her Rhenanian upbringing (birthplace: Cologne, and ZDF Television in Mainz). --megA 21:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Duden's Das Aussprachewörterbuch comes pretty close to reflecting a widely accepted standard, doesn't it? That's what I use when I as a nonnative speaker am unsure how to pronounce a word. For Städte it gives ", auch: ", which I take to mean the short vowel is acceptable but less standard than the long vowel. As for , it's presumably only used by people who always replace  with [e:] (those for whom Bären and Beeren are homophones). When I first came to Germany I said , reasoning that since Stadt has a short vowel, its plural has one too, but then I noticed a lot of people using a long vowel, so I looked it up in Duden, and sure enough Duden prefers the long vowel. So I trained myself to switch to  instead. —Angr 09:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

text: That's true too. Actually, German phonology is a pretty good article, dealing with real phonology, not "the sounds letters make". The phonology section of this article should just be a brief summary of that article. —Angr 14:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   The Phonology Section 

message: How did "eu" end up sounding like "oy"?
:The real question is, how did /oy/ end up getting spelled "eu"? —Angr 06:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rex could partly be correct, but it's also because this sound developed from the Middle High German [y:], which was written "iu". See German_orthography#Typical_letters. --Dave ~ (talk) 08:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: EU