Talk:Intifada

message: ## Etymology 
Another reference to cite for the word root:
https://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/%D9%86%D9%81%D8%B6/
https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-en/%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B6%D8%A9/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:8D80:1398:4AD0:C7FB:93CB:5BB1:FA99 (talk) 03:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk

message: NYT Tuesday has 
Facebook Removes ‘Palestinian Intifada’ Page
By JENNIFER PRESTON
5:43 p.m. | Updated After complaints by Israeli government officials and Jewish organizations in the United States, Facebook took down a page today by Palestinian supporters that called for violence against Jews and an uprising against Israel.
The page, entitled “Third Palestinian Intifada,” began earlier this month as a call for peaceful protests in the occupied Palestinian territories on May 15, one of more than a dozen Facebook pages that have been used in recent months to mobilize uprisings across the Middle East and North Africa.
[NYT article continues]
   One quirk of the story is the use of "Third Intifada" to refer to the same proposed activity on two contradictory logical grounds:
:A.
:# First Palestinian Intifada
:# Second Palestinian Intifada
:# Third Palestinian Intifada
:B.
:# Tunisian First Intifada
:# Egyptian Second Intifada
:# Palestinian Third Intifada
   Surely we need to cover this as a FaceBook topic, notwithstanding two earlier years' deletions of earlier would-be-Third Intifada wannabe articles.--Jerzy•t 01:27 & 01:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I refer above to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Third Intifada (fall 2010, delete) and  Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Third intifada (winter 2007, merge to Khaled Mashal apparently w/o Rdr).--Jerzy•t 01:35 & 01:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third Intifada on FB 

message: The first and second Palestinian intifadas included suicide bombers, stone throwing etc.
Under History, it says it was intended to be nonviolent. 
Even if it's meant to show intention only, it should also state that they were, in fact, violent.
If this part under History refers to the INTENT to represent it as non violent, that should be stated.
That's both for complete encyclopedic content and because in these complicated times of the current Israeli-Palestinian war, uneducated supporters who don't know what intifada is or can't tell the difference between Hamas and Palestinians search Wikipedia for affirmation for supporting Hamas, and they then call for intifada because "it means revolution" while to others like Hamas it means violent deeds like suicide bombings.
Yes, this is an encyclopedia, not an opinion column. But this section showing the first and second intifadas as non violent does the truth injustice in practice. Our purpose is to convey the facts well, this may fail at that. 
Peace be upon both nations.
 2A0D:6FC2:64A0:B00:7C45:9BEF:DB18:BBAC (talk) 11:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  The sentence seems to be eliding a lot, as the second intifada was in 2000, 15 years later and after the First Intifada had turned violent. The term in 2000 did not necessarily have the same connotation it had in the late 80s.The Second Intifada began violent on September 29, 2000, immediately after Sharon went to the Temple Mount, and both sides used violent rhetoric immediately with the militant terms this article says weren't used. 67.242.46.6 (talk) 02:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palestinian intifada nonviolent?  

message: * The Intifada: 1987-1990, Anti-Defamation League, 2022
* "The First Intifada was (...) attacks (using rocks, Molotov cocktails, and occasionally firearms) on Israelis." What you need to know about the 1987 Intifada, PBS, 2019
* "the Palestinians shifted from throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at Israeli targets to attacking them with rifles, hand grenades, and explosives" Intifada, Encyclopædia Britannica.
* 'We threw one Molotov at the beginning'(...)'We'd go down there and throw stones and Molotovs' Jaafar recalled", Inside the Intifada, Joel Brinkley, The New York Times, 1987.
Bozzidag (talk) 17:57, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: the wording is confusing with the double or,
here is my sugested rewording it and add link to relevant source on wikipedia according to WP:BUILD.
change:
it refers to violent or non-violent uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation.
to:
it refers to non-violent opposition or violent uprising by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation. 79.176.106.171 (talk) 01:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  rewording and adding reference to related source 

message: it seems many conflicts have recently been added to indicate they were intifadas.    
The editors should confirm that these were called as intifadas in that time.    
There is an attempt to normalize the term intifada outside of the Palestinian context.  Where it never was used as such.
Simply translating all uprisings as intifadas is not intellectually honest 174.141.173.97 (talk) 13:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and I'm particularly concerned by our reference to the "concept" of intifada. What we list are examples of popular uprisings that are referred to as "intifada" by modern media, none of these were called intifada at the time and it's not at all clear to me that there's anything that unifies these conceptually to the exclusion of other events. I'm going to remove the content and someone can add it back if they find a source. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Agree and almost all of the examples do not include sources.  Eframgoldberg (talk) 17:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retroactive use of word intifada  

message: I tried to track down the source of the claim that . The cite given is to Mary E. King, A Quiet Revolution (2007), p. 208. King says there  but she doesn't cite any source. In an earlier book (Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. (1999) p. 470) King says  which is somewhat more limited, and cites this to "Jonathan Kuttab, interview with author, Jerusalem, 8 June 1988". 
Kuttab is a very interesting commentator on the conflict, but I'm concerned that he doesn't define "nonviolent" in the way Wiki readers will expect. Two months before Kuttab's interview with Mary E. King, you can watch him on YouTube clarifying that he means throwing stones, which he considers "relatively speaking, within that context" nonviolent. You can read in Mary E. King's book (p. 259ff) a sympathetic treatment of intifada leaders' take on the nonviolence of stone-throwing. In any case, I think we should look for other sources or note explicitly that the First Intifada can only be said to have been significantly non-violent if stone-throwing is defined as non-violent. GordonGlottal (talk) 23:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think you've got that quite right. The current source isn't to King's book, but to an article called "Birth, Transformation, and Death of Refugee Identity: Women and Girls of the Intifada". There, she cites a 1991 paper (then in press) by Judith Martin. Martin makes the claim explicitly, and cites a personal interview with Faisal Husseini, who evidently told Martin he chose this word (along with ) because of it's connotation. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: @Shinealittlelight Martin doesn't really say that. She only cites the previous paragraph to an interview with Husseini. But let's assume she meant to cite that interview with Husseini in May 1990. At the Madrid Conference of 1991 Husseini said "Until now the intifada was with stones". See here. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair points, but I still think the source is reliable for the claim that the term was chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistence". I would agree that the source is not reliable for the claim that the intifada was nonviolent, or even that it was intended to be nonviolent or beleived to be nonviolent. So maybe what you're saying is that we need to clarify that despite the decision to choose this term to connote nonviolence, the intifada was nevertheless violent from the very beginning. I would agree with that. The same sources note that stone throwing was characteristic from the outset. Shinealittlelight (talk) 20:45, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "no nuance of violence" 

message: Please self-revert your last edit to bring yourself in compliance with WP:1RR.   Makeandtoss (talk) 15:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Violating 1RR, removing sourced material and ignoring the talk page is not going to sit well at ARBCOM. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Why aren't you reverting your bold edits and get consensus for the sourced material which some editors argue isn't reliable enough for this specific topic, see dw antisemitic controversies|dw  212.29.194.49 (talk) 06:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warsaw 

message: This reference is in Arabic and when translated provides no academic support for this claim.  There is no historical reference of any integrity or objectivity that will refer to the Warsaw ghetto uprising as an intifada. This claim in and of itself is Holocaust revisionism, and anti-Semitic. It needs to be removed from this page, and removed in the reference below. Jimrose000 (talk) 21:41, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, and it is included now in the Events Called Intifada, almost all of which do not include citations or sources.  Eframgoldberg (talk) 17:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

text: Already done It looks like the text in question has been removed. I will note, however, that there is a bit of an edit war to add (or remove) the content, so it might be re-added in the future. Hopefully, though, a discussion will be had and further warring avoided. Primefac (talk) 12:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 May 2024 

message: MOS:LEDE: Lede is a summary of the body; it is not out-of-place; waiting for your self-reversion to bring compliance with WP policies. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That sentence is definitely out-of-place. A better sentence would be something along the lines of "The word intifada is also used in Arabic to refer to rebellions and uprisings outside of Arab world such as the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising." Smartypants2006 (talk) 17:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then please feel free to expand that sentence accordingly and re-add it to the lede. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I consulted two authoritative histories of the Warsaw ghetto uprising (one from University of California press, one from Yale University press), and neither one of these lengthy sources uses the term "intifada" a single time. I think it's therefore not correct to include this content in the article. Several other editors have agreed with this: , , . Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lede 

message: Under the section called Events Named Intifada,
The majority do not have citations associated with them. Furthermore some, such as referring to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising only rely on 1 source which is a news article from a German Newspaper less than a year old and should not indicate a consensus that the name is accepted, especially as it is unclear if the original article was written in German and auto translated to Arabic.  Eframgoldberg (talk) 17:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Most of the material in that section should be removed, as it is unsourced. I have unsuccessfully tried to find sources for some of them. Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Research/Lack of Sources 

message: Suggestion for opening paragraph:
Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة - intifāḍah (literally: "shaking off")) is an Arabic word for a rebellion, uprising, or a resistance movement. In the Palestinian context, understood to mean a civil uprising or an uprising against oppression. 199.101.177.252 (talk) 17:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition and Translation 

message: Suggestion for opening paragraph:
Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة - intifāḍah (literally: "shaking off")) is an Arabic word for a rebellion, uprising, or a resistance movement. In the Palestinian context, understood to mean a civil uprising or an uprising against oppression. 199.101.177.252 (talk) 19:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Revised opening reuses both references 199.101.177.252 (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revised Opening Paragraph 

message: 62.56.244.129 (talk) 10:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 10:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 May 2024 

message: * What I think should be changed (format using ): change uprising to violent terrorist attacks that targeted civilians. Take out Wharsaw Ghetto Uprising as an example of “intifada.”
* Why it should be changed:
It is absolutely abhorrent how the “Intifada” Wikipedia page is worded. It was a series of bus bombings, cafe shootings, stabbing of little children, random bombings at people’s homes. This is all very easily researched and it’s frankly vile that the page frames it as a series of “uprisings against the Israeli occupation.” 
Jews are indigenous to Israel and those were not fun uprisings to be romanticized. They were gruesome, bloody, awful targeting of civilians and you keeping it like that encourages more violence towards Jews worldwide and legitimizes calls for a “global intifada.”
Also please NEVER describe the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising as an intifada or put it on this page. That is Holocaust inversion, that was a very different situation. Palestinians have been offered their own state many times and have refused each time, instead choosing this path of endless war and destruction while targeting and hiding behind civilians. 
Please address immediately, this is unacceptable and dangerous. 
* References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/the-second-intifada-a-look-back-at-the-palestinian-terror-campaign-642647
2601:602:B80:5340:ED8E:81CA:FFE8:6889 (talk) 04:20, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Denied This is just a rant. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is absolutely disgusting