Talk:Alternative comics

message: "Indie Comics" are comics that are self-published.  "Alternative Comics" are comics that are not mainstream.  They are not synonyms.  Of course, the majority of indie comics are alternative comics, but not all.  Plenty of alternative comics are put out by publishers like Darkhorse, Oni Press, Top Shelf, and even the arguably "mainstream" DC Comics (under their "Vertigo" and "Zuda" imprints). There's no mention of the phrase "indie comics" in this article at all. ButteredToast (talk) 10:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does "indie comics" redirect to this article? 

message: The "Alternative" category is described here (correctly, in my view) as an art movement that grew out of the underground comix movement.  But some of the stuff that was talked about here earlier (see Elfquest, above) about the "independent" (i.e., not Marvel or DC) publishers that emerged (and mostly died) in the 1980s is still here.  I'd like to trim that out, or move it to an "independent comics publishers" entry, or some such. Many of these "independent" comics are "genre" comics that clearly were not part of the same underground-inspired movement that includes The Hernandez Brothers, Chester Brown, Dan Clowes, etc.   While publishers (Fantagraphics in particular) are an important factor in the story of Alternative comics, I think it is most useful to focus on the qualities of the work, which include serious literary and artistic experimentation.  Any objections if I take a stab at trimming what I see as the extraneous stuff?  --BTfromLA 20:17, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Art movement v publishing movement 

message: Some relevant non american comics are not cited in the article: the french magazine Métal Hurlant ('74-'87) and the italian magazines :it:Il male ('78-'82), :it:Cannibale ('77-'79) and Frigidaire ('80-'86). The most internationally know character/work from these italian magazines is RanXerox. </BR>--BMF81 12:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey man, WP:BOLD.  ike9898 15:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All right buddy :) --BMF81 17:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

text: In some sense, underground/alternative/independent comics were a largely American phenomenon in that there was, at least in the past, a major split between underground and later alternative comics and mainstream comic books and strips, largely enforced by a comics code and very narrow genre conventions. In Europe and Japan, where comics have always been considered a serious art form, this stark dichotomy didn't exist; there have always been "serious" comics in those countries. By European standards, North American alternative comics might not have ever seemed terribly non-mainstream to begin with. I could be wrong about this – if there was a strong non-mainstream comics movement in Europe or elsewhere, by all means add information about it to this article. Peter G Werner 02:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I probably should have looked up the links you listed, first. Métal Hurlant was the French predecessor to Heavy Metal, which has never considered part of "alternative comics". That was more of a predocessor to the kind of "alternative mainstream"/cyberpunk trend exemplafied by publishers like Image Comics and the like. Peter G Werner 02:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  American Bias? 

message: I notice that someone has created the 'indie comics' category.  That seems inconsistent with the terminology used in wikipedia comics related articles.  Opinions on renaming the category 'alternative comics'? Or deleting the category?  ike9898 17:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What about renaming this entry to "Indie comics"? It'd save any confusion with Alternative Comics (publisher). I don't think we should delete the category. (Emperor 22:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "alternative comics" is the preferred terminology. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 15:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Indie comics?

message: This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article.  If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class.  The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject.  Hiding T  10:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: B-Class Assesment required

message: There is an attempt through redirects to conflate "alternative comics" with "independent comics", and an attempt in the text to conflate "alternative comics" with "creator owned". Traditionally, these three terms reflected three very different aspects of comics.
*"Alternative" was a descriptor of the content, an alternative to what was viewed in the comics field as the mainstream.
*"Independent" was a descriptor of the distribution; for a while, it could be summed up as being independent of the magazine distribution system, although even that got fuzzy, and eventually it seemed to largely boil down to "not Marvel, DC, Archie, Harvey, or Warren".
*"Creator owned" is a descriptor of the copyright status, and the article tries to depict that as only a small and unidirectional difference from "alternative", the difference is actually large (plenty of significant creator-owned superhero works exist, certainly from the rise of Image on forward) and flows in all directions (Tales From The Closet, a clearly-alternative gay-themed soap opera, was not creator owned, for example.)
---Nat Gertler (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And a big section of the piece seems to be about self-published comics, which is a different axis again. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

text: My suggestion is that you take a stab yourself. This is not a very active article, so I would not assume an edit war will erupt. I have an arguable conflict of interest myself, as a publisher of independent comics, some of which are alternative, some of which are not, some of which are creator owned, some of which are not, and the distinctions do not fall in easy patterns. Just make sure you provide sourced references for your distinctions. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Many thanks Nat. I had a couple of items that I originated get pounced on (frankly with the hindsight of a few years time, -justifiably so) by some editors and admins who eventually helped me and a couple of other editors out a lot (Emperor, Bert and others) so I guess I shouldn't be so shy at this point, I'm just remembering my first tinge of outrage when someone went over contributions I thought were complete/relevant/notable etc. I feel especially invested in this topic also, but want to make sure it serves to specify, and not necessarily just superficially include or exclude work in comics beyond any of my own biases and perspectives, a comment above noted how North American the focus was, and I had to absoluetly agree that it renders the piece very incomplete. So I'm going to hit up a couple of guys at The Comics Journal, specifically Rich Kreiner, and see about getting a second/third opinion before jumping in. Thanks again bro.(Sintauro (talk) 17:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative, independent, and creator-owned 

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