Talk:Suriyothai

message: Paul_012, I did a bit more research (Google) into this.
===Dates===
* Luang Prasert (LP) is the most reliable Siamese chronicle for the era. 
* It's not clear in which year the British Museum edition, which gives 905 CS (1543–44), was published. (Per (Harvey 1925: 343), the official Ayutthaya chronicle editions till 1914 reported that the war took place in 1529–30. The 1914 edition, edited by Damrong, placed it at 1548–49.)
* Can you double-check the LP dates? The LP dates as you listed are totally inconsistent. For example:
:* If the 2nd waxing of the 3rd month 910 fell on a Sunday, the 9th waxing of the 3rd month must have fallen on Thursday, not Saturday as reported by LP.  
:* If the 3rd waning of the 4th month 910 fell on a Tuesday, the 9th waning of the 4th month must fall on Monday, not Sunday as reported by LP.
:* In fact, the only two dates that are consistent are: Sat, 5th waxing of the 4th month and Sun, 6th waxing of the 4th month. The rest are internally inconsistent.
===Narrative comparison===
The chronicle narrative outlines mostly match but details differ quite a bit. See this comparison of the Burmese, Siamese (and Portuguese) accounts of the war by BJ Terwiel, a historian of Thai history: . As you can see, Terwiel's analysis does not give much weight to the Siamese account at all. In fact, he thinks the Burmese might have won the war as reported by the Burmese chronicles.
I can update the 1547–49 war article with the following table (or a similar one). But can you (1) double-check your LP dates, and (2) provide a citation for them? Of course, if you can fill in the blanks in the table, please do so.
Event                                                          	Date by Burmese chronicles (MY, YT, HY)                                        	Date by Siamese Ayutthaya chronicle (British Museum / Phan Chanthanumat editions)	Siamese dates adjusted to Year 910
Burmese armies leave Pegu                                      	13th waxing of Tazaungmon 910 ME  (14 Oct 1548)                                	Sun, 2nd waxing of the 3rd month 905  (Sat, 26 Jan 1544)                         	Sun, 2nd waxing of the 3rd month 910  (Mon, 31 Dec 1548)
Burmese armies cross Mottama [sic] river (probably the Salween)	unreported                                                                     	9th waxing of the 3rd month 905  2 Feb 1544                                      	9th waxing of the 3rd month 910  7 Jan 1548
Burmese armies leave Kanchanaburi for Ayutthaya                	13th waxing or Full moon of Nadaw 910  (13 or 15 Nov 1548)                     	unreported                                                                       	unreported
Burmese armies reach outskirts of Ayutthaya                    	specific date unreported  [probably about two weeks later? late Nov/early Dec?]	Sat, 5th waxing of the 4th month 905  (Wed, 27 Feb 1544)                         	Sat, 5th waxing of the 4th month 910  (Fri, 1 Feb 1549)
Battle outside Ayutthaya and siege of Ayutthaya begins         	event reported/specific date unreported                                        	Sun, 6th waxing of the 4th month 910  (Thu, 28 Feb 1544)                         	Sun, 6th waxing of the 4th month 910  (Sat, 2 Feb 1549)
Battle of Thung Hantra                                         	event unreported                                                               	Tue, 3rd waning of the 4th month 910  (Tue, 11 Mar 1544)                         	Tue, 3rd waning of the 4th month 910  (Thu, 14 Feb 1549)
Siege ends                                                     	1 month after the siege began  [late Dec/early Jan?]                           	Sun, 9th waning of the 4th month 910  (Mon, 17 Mar 1544)                         	Sun, 9th waning of the 4th month 910  (Wed, 20 Feb 1549)
Battle near Kamphaeng Phet                                     	date unreported  [early Jan?]                                                  	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported?]
Burmese armies attack Kamphaeng Phet                           	3 days later  [also reported by the Portuguese] (early-to-mid Jan?)            	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported?]
Peace agreement reached                                        	[mid Jan?]                                                                     	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported?]
Burmese armies leave Kamphaeng Phet                            	8 days after the accord  [late Jan/early Feb]                                  	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported?]
Tabinshwehti arrives back at Pegu                              	3rd waxing of Late Tagu 910 (13th waxing per YT)  1 Mar 1549 (11 Mar 1549)     	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported]
* The date conversions here are calculated using JC Eade's Southeast Asian Ephemeris (1989).
* Assumes the LP dates follow the Sukhothai style (Chiang Mai's 3rd month is equivalent to the 1st month of Sukhothai style per (Eade 1989: 10)).
Hybernator (talk) 22:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The LP chronicle (according to Wikisource) only lists the year as CS 910, and that the Burmese attacked Ayutthaya in the 4th month. All the dates I listed above are from the British Museum / Phan Chanthanumat editions, which agree with each other. The inconsistent dates appear as such in the source documents (also on Wikisource). I don't have print sources to check the accuracy of those reproductions, though. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: * Thanks very much for your help. I didn't realize the specific lunar dates were from the British Museum/PC editions. (Based on the Google translations of the LP chronicle and the British Museum edition, I now see the specific dates come from the royal chronicle.) I've added a new column in the table to reflect it. The year 905 obviously is incorrect. The reported months are troublesome as well; they suggest that the Burmese began the campaign with half the dry season already over. The Burmese almost always began their campaigns right after the Buddhist Lent. And in this war, the Burmese records indicate they started the campaign in mid Oct. If she did die in the battle before the siege, she likely died in late Nov/early Dec 1548. Anyway, I'll just remove just "In February" from the article text. Hybernator (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Death date and comparison of accounts

message: The chronicle narrative outlines mostly match but details differ quite a bit. See this comparison of the Burmese, Siamese (and Portuguese) accounts of the war by BJ Terwiel, a historian of Thai history: . As you can see, Terwiel's analysis does not give much weight to the Siamese account at all. In fact, he thinks the Burmese might have won the war as reported by the Burmese chronicles.
I can update the 1547–49 war article with the following table (or a similar one). But can you (1) double-check your LP dates, and (2) provide a citation for them? Of course, if you can fill in the blanks in the table, please do so.
Event                                                          	Date by Burmese chronicles (MY, YT, HY)                                        	Date by Siamese Ayutthaya chronicle (British Museum / Phan Chanthanumat editions)	Siamese dates adjusted to Year 910
Burmese armies leave Pegu                                      	13th waxing of Tazaungmon 910 ME  (14 Oct 1548)                                	Sun, 2nd waxing of the 3rd month 905  (Sat, 26 Jan 1544)                         	Sun, 2nd waxing of the 3rd month 910  (Mon, 31 Dec 1548)
Burmese armies cross Mottama [sic] river (probably the Salween)	unreported                                                                     	9th waxing of the 3rd month 905  2 Feb 1544                                      	9th waxing of the 3rd month 910  7 Jan 1548
Burmese armies leave Kanchanaburi for Ayutthaya                	13th waxing or Full moon of Nadaw 910  (13 or 15 Nov 1548)                     	unreported                                                                       	unreported
Burmese armies reach outskirts of Ayutthaya                    	specific date unreported  [probably about two weeks later? late Nov/early Dec?]	Sat, 5th waxing of the 4th month 905  (Wed, 27 Feb 1544)                         	Sat, 5th waxing of the 4th month 910  (Fri, 1 Feb 1549)
Battle outside Ayutthaya and siege of Ayutthaya begins         	event reported/specific date unreported                                        	Sun, 6th waxing of the 4th month 910  (Thu, 28 Feb 1544)                         	Sun, 6th waxing of the 4th month 910  (Sat, 2 Feb 1549)
Battle of Thung Hantra                                         	event unreported                                                               	Tue, 3rd waning of the 4th month 910  (Tue, 11 Mar 1544)                         	Tue, 3rd waning of the 4th month 910  (Thu, 14 Feb 1549)
Siege ends                                                     	1 month after the siege began  [late Dec/early Jan?]                           	Sun, 9th waning of the 4th month 910  (Mon, 17 Mar 1544)                         	Sun, 9th waning of the 4th month 910  (Wed, 20 Feb 1549)
Battle near Kamphaeng Phet                                     	date unreported  [early Jan?]                                                  	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported?]
Burmese armies attack Kamphaeng Phet                           	3 days later  [also reported by the Portuguese] (early-to-mid Jan?)            	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported?]
Peace agreement reached                                        	[mid Jan?]                                                                     	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported?]
Burmese armies leave Kamphaeng Phet                            	8 days after the accord  [late Jan/early Feb]                                  	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported?]
Tabinshwehti arrives back at Pegu                              	3rd waxing of Late Tagu 910 (13th waxing per YT)  1 Mar 1549 (11 Mar 1549)     	[event unreported?]                                                              	[event unreported]
* The date conversions here are calculated using JC Eade's Southeast Asian Ephemeris (1989).
* Assumes the LP dates follow the Sukhothai style (Chiang Mai's 3rd month is equivalent to the 1st month of Sukhothai style per (Eade 1989: 10)).
Hybernator (talk) 22:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The LP chronicle (according to Wikisource) only lists the year as CS 910, and that the Burmese attacked Ayutthaya in the 4th month. All the dates I listed above are from the British Museum / Phan Chanthanumat editions, which agree with each other. The inconsistent dates appear as such in the source documents (also on Wikisource). I don't have print sources to check the accuracy of those reproductions, though. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: * Thanks very much for your help. I didn't realize the specific lunar dates were from the British Museum/PC editions. (Based on the Google translations of the LP chronicle and the British Museum edition, I now see the specific dates come from the royal chronicle.) I've added a new column in the table to reflect it. The year 905 obviously is incorrect. The reported months are troublesome as well; they suggest that the Burmese began the campaign with half the dry season already over. The Burmese almost always began their campaigns right after the Buddhist Lent. And in this war, the Burmese records indicate they started the campaign in mid Oct. If she did die in the battle before the siege, she likely died in late Nov/early Dec 1548. Anyway, I'll just remove just "In February" from the article text. Hybernator (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Narrative comparison

message: Substituted at 07:22, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment