Talk:Zen/Archive 2

message: channa was removed since dhyana was mentioned. Anyone know why channa was mentioned as the root for Zen? Usedbook 19:18 May 7, 2003 (UTC)
:I think Channa was a Chinese transliteration of Sanskrit word for meditation, shortened to Chan to refer to the training centers, and then modified to Zen on introduction to Japan. munge 22 August 2004
::that sounds familiar.  there's a book by thomas hoover called zen culture that tells the story (or a version of it) in a really sweetly clear way.  i'm pretty sure he goes into the Chan to Zen thing there.
:Dhyana in sanskrit actually means 'Knowledge', I'm thinking. Someone should verify that. I'm an Indian, for the record. -Abhijit (mudeth@don't_spam.gmx.net)
::Dhyana literally means, unless I've been misled, "concentration" but it is often glossed as a term for a yogic practice roughly the same as "meditation". You might be thinking of jñana, which means (and is cognate to) "knowledge". - Nat Krause 09:47, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dhyana/Channa

message: In the list of recommended reading, "Zen in the Art of Archery" appears.  If the list was more than 5 or 6 entries long, I might not have a problem with that book being there, but I can name ten books, easily, which are more pertinent to Zen.  It is an interesting book, but personally I think Herrigel (sp?) was full of s--- and the book has very little to do with Zen per se.  I just hate to see someone actually use that list to learn more about Zen and end up reading that book.  Marteau
: OK, I went and deleted "Zen in the Art" and added "Into. to Zen".  If someone wants to go ahead and put "Zen in the Art" back I don't have a big problem with that and will let it be without question. Marteau
::Don't put Herringel back in the list. Why? See http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/586.pdf. When it was published, the West was hungry for anything that gave the flavor. That stuff is very dubious compared to what we have available in English today.
::Update: I see where someone restored mention of Herrigel, this time simply as a book that inspired Western interest in Zen. I guess that's fine, but I might add something to the article at some point that, as documented in the above-mentioned article ("The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery", Yamada Shoji, Japanese Journal of Religious Studies, 2001, v28, n1-2, p1-30), his archery teacher was not trained in Zen and did not necessarily endorse Zen. And the irony of Herrigel's influence on Western Zen practitioners may be even worse than that; serious allegations arose that on return to Germany, he joined the National Socialists and remained loyal to them to the end. See op. cit. p28 note 14 (did Yamada follow up with a further article on that?). See also "Jung, Christianity, and Buddhism", James W. Heisig, Bulletin of the Nanzan Institute for Religion & Culture, 1999, v23, p85, see esp. note 18, which cites the journal called Encounter, v16, n2, 1961, p96. --Munge 06:43, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Recc reading

message: I just moved all the Zen glossary material to Buddhist terms and concepts. Do they still serve a useful purpose here, or should they be culled?कुक्कुरोवाच 05:44, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Just killed the glossary.कुक्कुरोवाच 20:20, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Glossary

message: Should the page attempt to cover all Zen, or just give an overview and then point on? Also, should Japanese Zen, specifically, be relocated to a new page? Or should a new overview page be created (something ugly like Dhyana (Buddhist sect))?कुक्कुरोवाच 20:20, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Zen and its nationalities

message: Okay, I fixed some grammar and whatnot, deleted some weird statements, and added a little structure. I also removed an extensive quotation from the Platform Sutra, which might fare better under that article, and the following:
From this point of view, Zen is, instead of a religion, rather an undefinable origin, beyond all words and concepts, which can only be experienced on an individual level. In Zen, Prajna, i.e., direct intuitive wisdom, is to Buddhism what Gnosis is to Hellenism and Christianity.  All religions originated from more concrete expressions of Prajna, and as such Zen is not bound to any materialist view of religion at all, even not Buddhism. Zen is then the fundamental perfection of awareness in relation to everything existing, and is known by all the great saints and sages of all times. Zazen is then, both a method to bring people to liberation and an expression and realization of the perfection already present in every person.
कुक्कुरोवाच 20:51, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Scrapping and rewriting would be a good idea, we just have to enlist someone to do it.  I really don't want to myself, although I would be happy to edit and copyedit.  I do think that the "Zen" article should cover Zen/Dhyana School in various countries.  The word "Zen" is used very commonly by Koreans (I'm thinking of the Kwan Um School of Zen and Samu Sunim's Zen Buddhist Temples), I think Vietnamese, and of course Japanese when talking in English.  Sometimes even by Chinese (Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun), although they seem to prefer Chán.  Whereas nobody ever says Dhyana School that I've heard.  In might be a good idea to have a separate "Japanese Zen" article.  On the Chinese wiki, they have an article on "Chán" and a separate one for "Chinese Chán". - Nat Krause 04:07, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Some edits

message: Okay, there's something deeply wrong with that. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽
: Very wrong. It's a plug. I say delete it.Goethean 18:00, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: TANGOZEN??

message: I really don't think this recently added link (Down and Shut Up!) is really relevant. It has a couple things about Zen buddism on the page, but mostly it just seems to be someones almost-blog. I'm removing it, but if anyone disagrees and wants to put it back then here is the link for you to copy and paste. Down and Shut Up! Russco 15:30, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I like the page, and it is almost all about Zen.  On the other hand, itis just one guy's opinion.  Back on the first hand, what isn't?  Something written by committee?  I'm thinking about it. - Nat Krause 15:44, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Irrelevant link

message: I've removed the "New Age" categorization, as Zen is not at all "new age"; it's a pretty old phenomenon. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 02:06, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Age category 

message: Private sessions with a teacher are not kensho, as the article claims. Kensho is a sudden experience of awakening, of seeing into ones true nature. Private interviews with a teacher are called dokusan.
:Good heavens, yes.  In the future, please feel free to be bold and fix stuff like this yourself.  Thanks for the heads-up. - Nat Krause 23:13, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kensho 

message: Is anyone clear on the distinction that the article currently makes between "Zen Buddhism" and "Ordinary Zen"?  What are the examples of "ordinary Zen" that we are referring to?  I actually have a vague idea myself, but would like to clarify it considerably.  Phillip Kapleau alludes to the possibility of contrasting "Zen" and "Zen Buddhism" in one of his books.  In Three Pillars he also memorably quotes Yasutani in describing bompu zen, literally "ordinary" zen, which is basically the practice only for its physical and mental health benefits.  However, I don't think these are the same ideas as each other, and I'm not sure what the best way, if any, to present them in an encyclopedic format is. - Nat Krause 03:17, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Zen Buddhism vs. Ordinary Zen