Talk:Antient Grand Lodge of England

message: In the introductory paragraph, it states the full name of the Ancient Grand Lodge as "Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of England, according to the Old Constitutions."  This is very close to the full name of the short-lived Wigan Grand Lodge (1823-1866) which was the "Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of England, according to the Old Institutions." (Note difference between "Old Constitutions" and "Old Institutions.") However, neither is the correct full name of the Ancient Grand Lodge, as given in Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia, a pretty reliable source. Coil gives the full name of the Ancient Grand Lodge as "Grand Lodge of England According to the Old Institutions." PGNormand 18:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ancient Grand Lodge vs. Wigan Grand Lodge

message: This article is rife with errors, many of which have been here since almost the inception of the article. The first sentence begins by referring to this grand lodge as the "Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of England, according to the Old Constitutions." This is completely wrong.
The first name used by the Ancients' grand lodge was that of the organization committee in 1751-52, which used the name "Most Ancient and Honorable Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons." The term "Grand Lodge" was first used in the minutes of the Ancients for Dec. 27, 1753. But the name used consistently throughout the minutes of the Ancients and all editions of the Ahiman Rezon up to the Union of 1813 was "Most Ancient and Honourable Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons," without the words "Grand Lodge." 
It is worth noting that in 1791 the Ancients issued a certificate which bore the misnomer "Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of England according to the Old Constitutions," but this 1791 certificate, including the words "Grand Lodge" and using the incorrect term "Constitutions," is the only time and place that they used this peculiar variation. It is not known if it was a printer's error or was simply a case of careless editing on the part of the Grand Secretary. 
The official seal of the Ancients' grand lodge originally bore the name "Grand Lodge London," but was later changed to read "Grand Lodge in London of Free and Accepted Masons according to the Old Institution" (Note:  singular "Institution," not the plural "Institutions"). Notice the inclusion of the words "in London," and not "of England." The seal was again changed at a later time to read "Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons according to the Old Institutions."
All major Masonic historians and encyclopedists from Gould and Mackey, who wrote in the 1800's, down through the present have appended the phrase "according to the Old Institutions," although no one has ever shown when or where that was ever adopted by the Ancients by formal resolution. It appears it was simply used in correspondence to distinguish this grand lodge from its cross town rival.
On Dec. 1, 1813, when the Ancients' grand lodge met for the last time, it called itself "The Most Ancient and Honourable Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons, according to the Old Institutions." Note that the words "Grand Lodge" do not, nor ever did, appear in its official title. 
I doubt that anyone editing here on Wikipedia will pay any attention to any of this, much less actually correct the text of the article itself. I've long since stopped wasting my time trying to correct inaccuracies in Wikipedia articles, only to see them reverted. But hopefully, some innocent reader will see this here and learn from it. PGNormand 18:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Errors, errors, errors ... 

message: We seem to be having a project wide revert war over whether to use "Ancient" (with a "c") or "Antient" (with a "t").  We need to hammer this out and reach a consensus, and we should do so in one central location.  Since this impacts several articles, I have started a thread at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Freemasonry#Ancients vs. Antients... consensus? to be that central location.  Please discuss at that thread.
Thank you, Blueboar 13:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ancient vs. Antient

message: I have redirected the "c" page here.  There are too many tangential arguments on the other page (justification of "c", for example) and considering the other article made the concession that "t" was used in certain places, it can't be "wrong", which was the main objection to this article in the first place.  Any useful material can be re-added here without the hyperbole about the researchers themselves. MSJapan 23:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My thirty-year-old son said it best when he recently advised me:  "Dad, arguing on the internet is like racing in the Special Olympics. You may win the argument, but you are still retarded. I'm done. PGNormand 18:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem solved... 

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thread_title:  External links modified