Talk:2005 French riots/Archive 3

message: Suggest spliting it. I've already created the article 2005 French urban riots timeline.--malber 00:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is too long 

message: Isn't it wrong to sum all the vehicles and arrests and get a total of 4,551 burned vehicles and 948 arrests?
*I updated the sums to 4610 and 981 respectively. Andrew pmk | Talk 20:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in the "Assessment of rioting"-part 

message: Everyone, please keep this discourse civil.  Please note that the following words, and similar, are all examples of personal attacks when applied to other users: sissy, bigot, simpleton, and (in most ways it's used) extremist.  I'm sure there are others.  Regardless of other disagreements, this must stop.  There are no personal attacks allowed on Wikipedia, period.  Have a nice day. -- SCZenz 16:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. As TShilo12 put it, look at the pretty flowers, and let them calm you. --Kizor 21:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stronger reminder of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL 

message: Paris is a huge city.  I would expect there to be at least one or two eye witnesses to the rioting that are blogging about it in a factual manner.  Can anyone point to some of these?  Also, is a reputable blog a (e.g. factual eye witness reporting) considered a valid wikipedia source?
While this article has lots of problems, it and this discussion page are much more illuminating that anything I've been able to glean from mainstream media.  Go wiki! Funkyj 17:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: he is right, this is ridiculous. there are differing povs within France, so it's not like we're going to get a "French pov" by letting people familiar with the situation lead the article's development. We should encourage the direct quoting of (translated) French media, and avoid opinion pieces with an agenda from abroad. 81.63.122.115 20:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  We should quote facts from media, whether they're French or not.  I don't think the BBC's coverage is any more, or any less, suspect than a French media outlet.  Some editorials may be relevant, but they should be clearly made summaries of points-of-view, and they should be balanced.  -- SCZenz 23:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

text: According to the section above, they seem to be intended to keep everyone calm. -- SCZenz 23:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we get primary sources outside of main media ? 

message: How did this start ? I've been told by others that if this happened in China, it'd be
treated AS a rebellion and subsequently and forcibly crushed. I do NOT mean to
be offensive. I was also told about another riot, a student riot in another country,
the police shot them down with .50 Cal. Machine guns. Remember what happened in Tianaman
Square in 1989 ? The military and other security forces crushed what they had seen as a rebellion.
Had seen it on the news long ago. Again, I do NOT mean to be offensive, and I DO
apologise if I was. I'm only telling the truth,no more,no less.Martial Law 02:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: France isn't China.07:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How did this start ? I've been told .............. 

message: Could we perhaps have another perspective other than just the US for the World Reaction section? Much as some of us Americans would like to beleve, there is a whole big world outside our boarders. I'm sure some of them have an opinon on this as well. -Ross Taben 8:51 pm PST 11.4.05
: That was moved there by somebody to get the U.S. out of the timeline, I think.  I vaguely recall someone mentioning above the U.S. isn't the first country to issue a travel warning, though. -- SCZenz 05:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  World reaction 

message: I originally added the Turkish reaction. Someone has added: 'Turkey has similar laws.'. I propose to remove this as it is neither a part of the Turkish reaction nor does it relate to the article at hand. Furthermore I believe that it is not exactly accurate since schoolgirls are not prohibited from wearing headscrves in Turkey AFAIK. Chelman 14:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkey

message: since there have been riots way beyond Paris now, we might need a map of all of France highlighting affected areas. The present map is only intended to show the area where the first riots flared up. dab (ᛏ) 08:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The German wiki has this:  --24.31.29.171 12:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: well, it's a beginning. I would prefer something based on :Image:Île-de-France map.png, with greater accuracy and the administrative boundaries visible. 83.79.177.187 13:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for this pretty job ! we were and are planning to do a little the same on wiki-fr. We noticed the same difficulties : how show every where have vandalism without affraid all the world. I live in Bordeaux, and here is just some little acts of vandalism, really not riots, and the mojority of french cities are like this : vandalism, but not riot. Yug (talk) 00:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Moreover, please : what is your former pic to do this ? Yug (talk) 00:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: the map

message: Jesus Christ, you were just dying to mention synagogues, weren't you? See the discussion above. The intro mentions that "a synagogue was attacked with an incendiary device", linking to an article about the spread of the riots in general, and the burning of a disabled woman in particular, mentioning that "an incendiary device was tossed at the wall outside a synagogue". FFS, with half the city in flames, how is that incident notable enough to make it on the intro. Once again: There were no religious slogans or motivations discernible in the riots. Jews or synagogues were never even mentioned, except by Zeno who insisted on droning on about synagogues from the beginning. Now a molotov cocktail bumps off the wall of a synagogue, and this is mentioned in the intro (compared to, hundreds of cars and dozens of buildings went up in flames; a bus was savagely attacked and a disabled woman severely burned). Now if this isn't the pov of somebody who obsesses with  Armaggedon and Religious War, I don't know what. dab (ᛏ) 09:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds to me like you are insisting that the attack on a synagogue by muslim rioters is not worthy of mention. Considdering the recent spate of post 9/11 Anti-semitic incidents in france, it is certainly worthy of mention. Klonimus 07:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: synagogue

message: careful with the list in the intro now. There is a list of cities, and four links, and most of the cities do not appear mentioned in any of them. We need to summarize the spread beyond Paris better, and do a separate section listing these cities, with references, and estimates of severity. Baad 17:39, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: list of cities

message: also, the Bot statement is now both in the timeline, and in the "political" section. These should be collapsed somehow. Baad 17:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bot

message: "the murder was apparantly minimized"
Doesn't make sense.  Not obvious what was intended.  Can someone please fix, or delete?
Thanks, Ben Aveling 23:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: remove it. the gist is that the media are too sympathetic towards the rioters, glossing over their crimes. This is a pov that could conceivably be presented face-on, with attribution, but not snuck in like that. 81.63.61.110 00:02, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Ben Aveling 00:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction required 

message: I suggest that this article's name be changed as the incidents have moved beyond suburban Paris--Kevin 04:45, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced.  This article needs a new name.  I'm way to new to know the implications of renaming/moving an article, so I'll petition those more knowledgable than I to discuss the method. --Kevin 05:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggest article name change

message: This is part of the policy Wikipedia:Verifiability.  You cannot add material on a topic as disputed as this one is without citing some kind of reputable source.  See WP:CITE for guidance. -- SCZenz 08:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please cite sources! 

message: Le Monde is regarded (as one of) the best newspapers in France, so using it as reference for research can be a good thing; on the other hand, the website of Le Monde does not stay available for long, so putting references from there is almost a guarantee to get broken links within days. Hence, it would be nice to find the same info on other, more persistant sites. Rama 11:05, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm ? Are there mistakes in my English here ? Rama 13:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  If someone can mirror the articles in question, that would be nice. Kade 06:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note about using ''Le Monde'' as reference 

message: This section focuses on Seine-Saint-Denis, but the rioting has spread to other areas. Perhaps the heading should be changed to read "History of violence in Seine-Saint-Denis".  Also, in the first part of the article, the section reading "They were triggered by the deaths of two teenagers of African origin in Clichy-sous-Bois, a poor commune in an eastern banlieue (suburb) of Paris. The riots then spread to other parts of Seine-Saint-Denis. " might be changed to read "They were triggered by the deaths of two teenagers of African origin in Clichy-sous-Bois, a poor commune in an eastern banlieue (suburb) of Paris, part of the Seine-Saint-Denis département."  
Any thoughts?  I'm really new, or I'd just do it. 199.241.34.5 11:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: History of violence

message: "Minister of the Interior Nicolas Sarkozy, who heads the national police and is widely believed to be a candidate in the 2007 election"  -- for what?  president, prime minister?  this needs to be clear? Dsol 16:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  what 2007 election? 

message: The article seems to imply that the statements of Sarkozy about the Kärcher was after the two guys were electrocuted. In fact it was some months ago (March 2005?). The article should also state the obvious, is that now a lot of rioters have one clear objective: the resignation of Nicolas Sarkozy.Hektor 17:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was actually said on june 20. An article about this can be found here, but I'm unsure about putting external links in french in the main article. Comte0 18:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

text: To me, the only clear objectives of the rioters are to loot, burn cars, destroy property, assault innocent bystanders, and kill police.--malber 20:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Kärcher]]

message: the "sketchythoughts" blog is clearly partisan. It's okay to link it under "eyewitness account blogs" etc., but it will not do to link to it and portray what is written there as fact. It's just a blog, and even people on the blog say they are reporting on hearsay. This sort of evidence is too "sketchy" to stand up. 83.79.181.237 18:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As opposed to large media corporations, which are totally reliable and nonpartisan, and would never ever ever supress a story :)  Dsol 21:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: sketchythoughts

message: First and foremost, the riots will have to end, then the people should DEMAND that
 PUBLIC investigations be initated, so that NOTHING is "swept" under the rug,
so that this does'nt happen again. I've read the article referred to here, even related
articles, such as France's history, Islam, everything I can find to understand what is
going on. A neutral country should conduct the investigations.Martial Law 21:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  PUBLIC INVESTIGATIONS 

message: Seeing as how there was no discussion under a appropriate subsection on the talk-page of why it is canidate for deletion I am removing the tag (its difficult to find the objection on such a long talk page if you don't put it under a obvious section title). Its unlikely to have much merit anyways (especially seeing how many ignorant and racist objections people have made to the article). The article may not be the best and most NPOV article ever written, but its not that bad, and unless there is a wikipedia rule against current events made because of inherent issues with sketchy information and the need to hammer out NPOV issues then there is no reason to delete it. If you really think you have a good reason to delete the article, discuss' it under an appropriate section title here before just smacking a tag on it. (Don't bother if your one of those people who object to it for the irrelevant crackpot reasons above, e.g. "multicultralism has failed" and "their acting African", go find a "National-Front-pedia" to edit if thats the case.) --Brentt 22:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was added by a vandal. There was never a serious move for speedy deletion. HollyAm 22:34, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing "Speedy Deletion" Tag

message: Just seen the latest news, it seems that the French. Prez. MAY
initiate either a State of Emergency and/or Martial Law. I can't confirm this,nor deny it either. SEE Wikipedia's Main page about the restoration of order.Martial Law 22:33, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NEWS ALERT 

message: That's really not "France", I live in Bordeaux and that's totaly peaceful, except... suburd. Please move quickly this page, "2005 France riots" is really too alarmist. Yug (talk) 23:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CHANGE NAME > [[2005 France '''suburb''' riots]] 

message: the almost exact same sentence about cars and a mall being torched is repeated between saturday 5 night and Sunday 6 morning. Can someone check for precise date? Circeus 03:24, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evreux information duplicated 

message: I made some minor changes here to reflect the fact that the riots are no longer "focused around Paris" but actually started near Paris and spread.  Also tried to improve the readability a bit by breaking up some separate thoughts into separate sentences.  capitalist 03:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening Sentences

message: * minor: See above, "CFTC: minor syndicate". . 0,32% is their score in the professional elections of the police.
* far-right: see their web page. They use royalist symbolism and rhetoric (among their values, they cite "Reconnaissance des racines Judéo-chrétiennes de l'Europe et attachement à la morale sociale chrétienne." -- "Aknowledgement of the Judeo-Christian roots of Europe and attachement to christian social morale"); see their leader use  the fleur-de-lys and cross on the French flag. Etc... Rama 06:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Sdedeo, thank you for , well spotted (especially since I kept writting 0,23% instead of 0,32%) Rama 06:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Hmmm, I'd almost say "unnotable"... but if they make further noise, I'll try to draft something. The hard part of it will be not to have a Wikipedia article more important than their own site :p (actually, by google standards it will probably prove impossible) Rama 06:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's interesting, though. The French newspapers seem to know what the deal is (I guess these guys come out of the woodwork every now and again), but the English-language ones just kind of assume they're on the same level as the mainstream unions and mention neither the union's politics nor their complete irrelevance. Personally, I think it would be great if wikipedia had better info than the Guardian on the question. Sdedeo 06:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, now you're using arguments I can't resist ! :) Rama 07:34, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Action Police is minor and far-right 

message: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1513137/posts
::"There is something rotten in the state of Denmark!" - William Shakespeare
: Check this: . They seem unrelated to French riots, just a synchronic explosion in Arhus. On the other side there's been a minor extension of French riots into Belgium (a few cars burned in Brussels) - but I only have a link in Flemish (Dutch):  (that I can't read). --Sugaar 08:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  possible rioting in Denmark (I don't trust the source) 

message: IF they do, they'll treat it like a rebellion. 2 nations undergoing riots @ the SAME time ?!
THAT is why I say NATO may get involved. Just hope this rumor about Denmark is only that, a rumor.
Martial Law 06:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will NATO get into this ? 

message: IF the above statement IS proven correct, all bets are off. NATO may get involved in this matter. 
They'll treat this like a rebellion - and crush it. Two nations having similar riots going on ?
THAT is why NATO may get involved. I hope I am proven incorrect.Martial Law 06:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No it won't. (dear...) Rama 06:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  IF the above IS Confirmed..... NATO involvement ?!

message: * 2005 French riots/Summary and Map : To put clear and referenced informations which will be use to make maps, use this page. Yug -- POSTED SOME TIME AGO, COPIED FROM ARCHIVE 2
ok, now the map looks scary. Also, the caption has to be adapted, and the frames need to be labelled, saying which date they refer to. Also, fact checking. I hope to do an updated map later today. dab (ᛏ) 07:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but I've removed it. It doesn't do the job. On top of design problems, it is factually incorrect. It is better to have no map than to have a false map. For example, the Eure departement of Évreux, where riots were particularly heavy, is not even included. We need a cleaner list of events first. dab (ᛏ) 07:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have restored the map deleted by Dbachmann. The maps appear on many other language wikipedias and on the main page. As we can clearly see, the author of the maps is also known. Dbachmann, please allow time for the proper people to response before deleting this important data. You will note that I have already noted the time issue in the comments and adapted the caption, before you deleted them. Also please note that no one can claim to have a completely accurate picture of the chaos but that we must nevertheless have a map. Thus it will always be an approximation and your demand for zero error tolerance is unjustified. -- Zeno of Elea 07:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Zeno, you may not realize this, but I have uploaded the original Nov 3rd map, as a suggestion to this talkpage. Before I knew what happened, it was moved to commons and used on lots of WP articles, even though I hadn't finished making it, and didn't have time to check it. Now somebody has added an animation. This isn't more than a quick hack on top of an already flawed map. Please help with a tabular list of events, and I promise I will make a very nice and accurate map once that stabilizes. This is an ongoing event. Collect data first, make flashy graphics about it later. dab (ᛏ) 08:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It appears to me that the November 5 map was made by User:Yug. The animated version was made recently by User:Beatyou. your November 3 contributions does not mean that nobody else used any sources. By the way, where can we find a record of the creation of the Nov 3 map? The map in Wikicommons does not appear to have been uploaded by you.   -- Zeno of Elea 08:05, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: sigh, didn't I just tell you that I uploaded it to en:, and it was moved to commons without my help? In any case, this is insubstantial. The point is that I have shown an inaccuracy of the map in my comment above. Do something productive for once and help completing the chronological tables, so we can make a better map. dab (ᛏ) 08:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  at least two other users were involved in the creation of the image, and a seperate talk page was created for the issue which neither you nor anyone else has touched since nov 5. this is a recently ongoing collaborative project and not merely a creation of your own with which you have subsequently become uninterested. i have moved the map to the "assessment" section and added a caveat at the begining of the section. You seem to have taken the initiative on making the tables, why dont you try to find the rest of the people who worked on it and continue? -- Zeno of Elea 08:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: where is the table? i think you should have a seperate table for each day instead to keep things sorted. We can aggregate the tables for official presentation. -- Zeno of Elea 08:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: dear Zeno, see 2005_French_riots/Summary_and_Map -- somebody has to compile the table. Yes, it's work. Wikipedia doesn't thrive on nopv-disputes alone :) dab (ᛏ) 08:52, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: animated gif

message: In the Timeline section, the number of arrests for Sunday 6 November was written 312 in the article, but was 349 in the assessment of rioting section. However the Reuters article which is given as source, only mentions 193 arrests. To harmonize them, I changed both figures to 193 (if 349 or 312 is the correct figure, then please change it back, but cite your references).
:: Isn't this related to the terms interpellation, garde à vue, deferer en justice and so on? The French words for arrest, arreignment and prosecution are just weird (+ nowhere to be found on French Wiki)!! I think the figures you want is 349 arrests/people taken into some type of custody, while 193 people have been brought in front of a judge, but I've got no sources for you. 85.8.2.43 23:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chane to arrest figures 

message: Please try not to overcite perfectly minor and unnotable points of views. For instance, "Communist Insurection" will be seen only on far-left militant sites of not interest. If the Communist Party said such things it might be noticeabe, but the arm race for the most sensationalistic editorial is pointeless. Rama 09:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Communist insurection" and similar assertions 

message: seems to be a lack of information on this matter? Everything burns. Trees,parks yet they focus on cars. 
Post office are explained as signs of authority and other government buildings.
From what i can understand 2 trains only had thier windows smashed.(which would be considered a major form of transport for the rioters demographic which they would be more prone to attack. Friend group often meet on trains yet they need to be on the streets to riot?))
are their no links to this ? 
--Whywhywhy 11:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hit a vehicle fuel tank with a Molotov cocktail and you have a large-ordinance bomb that is highly portable and inexpensive (from the rioter's perspective). -- Zeno of Elea 11:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Hit a park or forest and it will burn huge and generate a bigger spectacle . Think i might have to sell my car for fear of being accused of being in the possession  of a arge-ordinance bomb.I dont see how a locked car is even highly portable --Whywhywhy 11:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I guess it is because a car is one of the few (if not the only one bar a house) valuable private properties that sits on a public place. It's a symbol of wealth to people who can't afford them, and for most of the people it's the most or second-most valuable thing they own; burning it achieves 3 purposes : you hurt a person that you percieve as wealthier than yourself, you vent your rage of being "poor", and it burns quite easily, makes a boom, and is quite a sight... Kcyclopedist 14:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just AFAIK, cars really do not explode like a bomb except under unusual circumstances. The fuel tank is very well protected. As far as I know, if you just kind of "set fire" to a car (with a Molotov cocktail, e.g.), the seating and upholstry burns; later, the fuel tank can rupture and feed the fire, but the entire tank will not go "at once"; the fire burns steadily for a long time. Certaintly there could be explosions, but it is not like the car is a bomb with a fuse. Sdedeo 15:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If there were such things as parks in the banlieue I'm sure they would burn too. The more adorned HLM's and cité's have at most a beton or ciment (sp?) sculpture and a paved square. Parks are for rich people. 85.8.2.43 23:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why are vehicles being targeted? 

message: Could the lack of information from rioters side be due to a media monopoly controled by the government quoted as sayin by (Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who has called the rioters "scum" ) http://www.discoverfrance.net/France/DF_media-bc.shtml 
seems like these people dont have voice and are bing backed into a wall 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools  .(school are being burned) 
How ever correct or in correct their reason are. 
.
--Whywhywhy 11:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: probably mostly because journalists are not necessarly well seen among them. But there are instances of reports and films taken directly among the rioters, one is linked in the external links. Rama 12:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: according to the timeline several journalist were attacked by the rioters. Such incidents are unlikly to encourage journalist to interview them to find out their POV. 213.191.70.226 12:24, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: the above only adds to the evidence that the rioters might feel they dont have a voice. Why do people attack others? Generally because from their point of view they have done wrong by them.--Whywhywhy 08:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools 

message: I had to do this myself, but I'm not sure if it counts as original research or not since (despite possible apperances) it's a pretty straightforward calculation. If anyone is concerned / curious, the analysis was done in the R statistical programming language; the R code is posted at Talk:2005_French_urban_violence/stats and is self-contained. -- Zeno of Elea 11:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the SP. It is cute (it made me laugh), but fundamentally invalid, as it assumes that the system can be modelled as a linear trend. Needless to say, nationwide riots are highly non-linear, possibly exponential in nature (the more people riot, the more people think about rioting -- one might expect a riot to double in size every night, and given the limited amount of data, such an exponential might appear linear.) Needless to say, speculating on the mathematical growth of riots is definitely OR. Sorry if my edit comments sounded harsh, by the way; I found it quite amusing. Sdedeo 11:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  If we get the earlier data and the rioting keeps increasing, we can compare the exponential model with linear model. -- Zeno of Elea 11:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just happened to be reading the article while the section in question was there. I agree with Sdedeo, the concept is bizarre. There's no simple predictive model. -- Tim Starling 11:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Its meant to be a local linear approximation for tommorow. Hopefully, reality will not show nonlinear asymptotic behaviour tommorow. And if we're "lucky" (i.e. if there is a drop in cars burned) then even the linear approximation will completely fail. You could think of it as a value at risk ("worst case scenario") calculation. -- Zeno of Elea 11:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statistical prediction 

message: ok, it is really difficult to get an overview; I've attempted a chronological table now, and will base a map on it. if you add towns to the list, provide a reference, ideally saying what happened, and when. Both the table and the map will of course be of provisional nature for some time. The list of cities by departement is a bit dangerous, since there is no reference whatsoever, and it would be easy to sneak in towns without anyone noticing. keep everything referenced! dab (ᛏ) 13:15, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Image:France_Riots_spread.png is the best I can do at the moment. Please help keep improving the table, especially the scale of riots in each city, so that the map can be updated. And keep the badly flawed animated gif away, please, it is not based on any sort of comprehensive data, just hacked together from assorted news sources. Also note that  gives a very high level of detail, mentioning every village where a single car was torched. I didn't bother to mark all these; if somebody is into it, there could be very small dots on the map for these incidents.  dab (ᛏ) 14:18, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: chronology / geography

message: The main article is getting large. I suggest the timeline and other lists on the page be moved to their own articles. --malber 18:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: huh? it is the core of the article. If anything, move the background material to the existing background articles, such as Islam in France. There is no need to explain "French Islam" on this page, we have an entire article about it. dab (ᛏ) 07:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal: Move Timeline to separate article  

message: I have restored the following to the "Racial and Religious Tensions" section of the "Histoical Context and Underlying Causes":
:According to a November 5 article in the New York Times, "while a majority of the youths committing the acts are Muslim, and of African or North African origin," "the mayhem has yet to take on any ideological or religious overtones," and noted that youths in the affected regions in Paris say that "second-generation Portuguese immigrants" and "some children of native French" have been involved in the violence. 
This is a major news organization making a very unambiguous statement about something very important -- and directly relevant to this section. I understand that some people disagree with the New York Times on this question. 
I also understand that it contradicts many other assertions or suggestions in the article from other sources; i.e., that the riots are "Muslim" in ideology (hence the burning of churches, synagoges, etc.) That is a major reason why it should be kept. I encourage readers who find this statement mysteriously removed to reinsert it as they see fit, or to discuss why they wish to remove it on the talk page first.
Sdedeo 19:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NYT on "racial/religious" tensions