Talk:Richard Kim (karate)

message: What style of karate did Kim teach? What did he call the style that he taught (if different from the previous question)? I've heard he called his style shorinji-ryu karate. What styles of karate are the root arts of his style? These are questions that should absolutely be in this article. Further, this article should also have more biographical facts (DOB, where he grew up, where he lived, etc). The current article is woefully inadequate, horrendously biased, and entirely non-encyclopedic. I hope somebody can update it soon to a much higher standard.Jrdx 18:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style of Karate 

message: This may be useful as a reference for many of the points already in the article:
* "about the author" from his book 'the weaponless warriors'
* timeline of his life
misc:
* http://www.zbbk.com/SenseiKim.html
* http://www.jikakudo.com/jikakudo/masterkim.html
* http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=326
--Asterphage 03:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  external reference 

message: Did he have them? Did he receive a menkyo kaiden from Kotaro Yoshida? User5802 02:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Daito-ryu scrolls 

message: I removed the reference to Daito-ryu scrolls and menkyo kaiden due to lack of evidence, and the exaggerated biographical claims of the subject.  Much of the biographical material in the references was supplied by Richard Kim himself.  In many cases there is no corroborating evidence, and the timelines and claims of achievement don't bear up under scrutiny.  For example, as a dropout from the University of Hawai'i, he joined the merchant marine, claiming to have worked during the Second World War in Shanghai as a translator for a Japanese officer.  He claimed to have earned a doctorate from St. John's University, but he does not show up on the alumni lists; St. John's University did not grant doctoral degrees at the time (students were able to pursue doctoral studies with affiliated US universities), there is no record of a doctoral dissertation, and no reference or evidence in his biographies or personal accounts of any academic research carried out.  It is unclear how a U. of Hawai'i dropout would have gained entry to any program in one of the most selective universities in Asia at the time.  Additionally, it is not clear how even the most gifted researcher could fulfill the requirements of doctoral study while serving the Japanese military in war time, while also embarking on serious study of Chuan Fa, Tai Chi and Pa Kua, as Kim claimed.  There are many other cases where the biographical achievements appear to be outright fabrications, or clear exaggerations - for example, Richard Kim claimed to have received exhaustive knowledge of the history of Karate from various teachers, some of which is published in his book 'The Weaponless Warriors'; but the recent, English translation of Eizo Shimabukuro's book 'Old Grandmaster Stories' (2003), originally published in 1964, shows quite clearly that Kim's material was taken in large part directly from Shimabukuro's original work.  According to Wikipedia guidelines, the article on Kim has been edited to display only claims that are corroborated by 3rd party evidence (existing diplomas, photos, etc.) 65.205.251.51 22:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you should include some of these facts in the article. I think it would be useful for readers to know if there were inconsistencies in his statements. For now I am including the FACT that he STATED he had the daito-ryu scrolls, and if you can show any proof against this, or if you think his many inconsistent statements show a tendency to lie, then I will change it to "Some have disputed this" and give reference to your evidence. User5802 01:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I believe it should be removed.  He stated many dozens of things that are exaggerated, if not obviously untrue.  I think it's a question of balance in the main article.  To list all of the tall tales would be fairly useless.  I think it suffices to mention that he was a figure of controversy (which he certainly was), and outline a few contentious bits in the discussion pages.  The current biographical entry on the main page suffices. Additionally, I have seen no evidence whatsoever that he mastered or taught Daito-ryu.  Shorinji-ryu, his own invention, was a wholesale appropriation of the JKA Shotokan curriculum.  The mention of Daito-ryu or any mysterious scrolls, or the transfer of 'spiritual energy' he claimed to have received from Kotaro, or the claim that he was an ordained priest (through the Universal Life Church - you can go to their Web site, fill out a Web form and become automatically ordained by pressing a button) or any of the other nonsense is fairly irrelevant.  I'll leave it up to you to delete or retain the passage.  I don't think it's worth a quarrel. 71.135.103.230 03:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately, there are no reliable sources.  I feel strongly that the entry should be limited to verifiable biographical material.  Two reasons to avoid citing Kim's unverifiable claims, or those that are demonstrably false:  1) There isn't much of an ongoing dispute.  Including language such as 'strongly disputed' is misleading. His claims are simply little known non-facts.  We aren't dealing with a major historical figure.  He was a Karate teacher with a tendency to exaggerate. 2) Addition of even a few exaggerated claims would require a solid refutation, with timelines and corroboration (such as the material on St. John's University, above).  This would more than double the length of the existing article, which should be brief given the lack of reliable sources, and would give the false impression that there is an ongoing and lively debate around the subject and that it bears equal consideration to the verifiable biographical information.  One issue that is very clearly demonstrable is the appropriation of material directly from Shimabukuro's 1964 monograph 'Old Grandmaster Stories', which Kim used as the bulk of his 1974 work 'The Weaponless Warriors'.  An English translation of Shimabukuro has been available since 2003, and those who don't read both English and Japanese can now easily verify this for themselves.  I will add a note about this to the article; this addition should give a more complete view of his character, and I suggest that unsubstantiated claims, such as the Daito-ryu scrolls, are completely removed.  Anyone looking for a summary of unsubstantiated claims, or controversial material can quite easily find it here in the discussion pages.  What do you think?  71.135.103.230 22:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Great response 71.135.103.230, and I think you are accurate in your assessment. Controversy should not encompass the article, although it appears Kim's actions have made him an unreliable source of information. The debate on his statements does bear consideration, though not as much as his factual biographical data. User5802 23:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daito-ryu scrolls edits 

message: I studied Shotokan Karate in Indio, California in the mid-70's, under Sumner Hardy (who had studied under Nishiyama in Los Angeles). Richard Kim came to visit twice when I was there. He demonstrated Tai Chi and weapons, told stories, and taught us kata that probably weren't part of Nishiyama's curriculum at the L.A. dojo: Gojushiho, which I've heard associated with Shotokan in other books and articles, a Tamari-Te kata called "Anunka", and kata with bo, nunchuku, tonfa, and sai. Some of our people attended his San Diego camps.
In the evenings of his visits we'd meet at our instructors house. "Mr. Kim" as we called him, did drink champaign and told stories mostly the same as were written in The Weaponless Warriors. Some, though, got into anecdotes of psychokinesis and levitation, and he also mentioned some research that the "soul weighed 3 ounces" (maybe it was two) based on someone weighing people before and after they'd died. I'd actually read the same "research" in the  National Enquirer some time before that, which a classmate had brought to school. He didn't tell any tales of sexual exploits.
The fantastical stuff notwithstanding, I'd credit him with preserving Okinawan kata traditions that could otherwise have been discarded as karate schools standardize their curricula (or worse, where "independent" instructors feel free to rewrite them).
Carl Ponder (talk) 06:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some recollections 

message: I removed the POV tag because the article seems to represent the outcome of discussion and nothing stuck out to me as objectionable.  If anyone has any problems with the existing text, feel free to either edit it or re-add the tag. -- Beland (talk) 00:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV dispute seems over