Talk:Andrés Manuel López Obrador/Archive 1

message: User:Ruiz just posted the IEDF link of the 2000 election results here and on w:es, where I'd just corrected the reference. The IEDF link  says that the vote breakdown between the PAN, PRI,  & PRD was 33.4, 22.8, & 34.5 (= 90.7%). Quite correct. However, AMLO was running as the candidato común of the 'Alliance for Mexico City', including the PRD and a bunch of micropartidos: PT, Convergencia, etc: see here, page 13. So, on the IEDF results table, his actual share of the vote is the one in the column labelled "Total de votos obtenidos por el candidato común": 38.3. This is borne out by the maths: 33.4, 22.8, &  38.3 = 94.5% (+3.28 for Tere Vale, +1.8 for blancos & nulos = 99.58%).  (The IEDF table is stupidly and badly done.) AMLO's figs in a back-then news report: 39%. And my copy of Todo México 2001 (p.252) says, "L.O. obtuvo cerca de 39%... frente a Creel, que alcanzó 34%. I stand by my edit, y aprovecho para mandarle un saludo a Ruiz, que hacía tiempo que no nos veíamos por acá. –Hajor 20:58, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right folks, my mistake. That IEDF table is just awful and I totally forgot about the Alliance back in 2000. Kudos to Hajor! Ruiz 02:47, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 2000 vote figures

message: I would like suggestions about how to translate Jefe de Gobierno (I use Head of Government). I think the article has too many spanish words and that could deter readers, and I believe Mayor is too inexact. Same for desafuero, which appears as part of a section's name. I thought impeachment but that would be incorrect.
Asereje 15:51, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not easy: "Head of Government" is more precise, but unwieldy; "mayor" is nippy and easy (and used passim by the international press) but technically inaccurate. I've been writing Head of Government ("mayor of Mexico City"), and have no strong objection to referring to the office as a mayor on second reference. (The BBC Spanish-language service has been calling him the alcalde, which I find harder to swallow.) Desafuero? "Lifting of executive immunity", "suspension of immunity". But once you've explained what it is, don't be too reluctant to call it desafuero subsequently. My take, –Hajor 16:20, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Jefe de Gobierno

message: I deleted the following addition as it is heavily POV and unproved:
: More Criticism
: Lopez Obrador comes from the Old PRI school but he did not had a good background (well-done relatives and friends). The Mexican and political elite requires very high profile either in his own family or at least very good political conections in order to ascend and endure in the political posts. In this case, Lopez Obrador did not had a good profile and he assumed very low profile jobs inside the Public Administration in his early profesional career. This probably made him very reaccionary and he moved to a more marxist-leninist view in search for a political post. He left the PRI and entered the PRD where he was more successful, and used the old-days tactics from the PRI to manipulate the public opinion, control the poor and disgusted low-middle class, invade rich people or government land, block any government initiative or investment, etc. Once in office in Mexico City Government, he paid the "campesinos" (mexican farmers) of Texcoco town to block and mess the construction for a new and modern international airport. In this case, the Federal Government canceled the project in order to avoid violence. As we see, Lopez Obrador uses the same old-fashined PRI tactics and has a very subjective view of things. He justifes himself in the name of the poor, but he also nows how to use violence and the public budget in his own benefit.
:For example, let's see what about his goals:
:   1. The minimum-security penal colony in the Islas Marías may be and ecological reserve but never a "wonderland" for children because is too far. The problem is that once the penal colony is close there would be less patrol on the pacific waters and the sovereingty on those island will diffuse. (Remember what happened to Cyprus). It may be a better idea to make it an international turist resort and it may be profitable.
:   2. He would construct a high-speed train (like the Japanese 'shinkansen') crossing the country from the capital to the north border. But Mexico do not offer the standars for security and manteinance for a 280 km/hr train (half the speed of an Boeing or Airbus). An accident of such a train would be a big blow for his credibility. The entire investment is soo high that a train ticket Mexico-Monterrey may not be so competitive as the air ticket is in the fist decade.
:   3. He would live in the National Palace on Mexico City's Zócalo. Maybe he is just trying to impress about his humility, but this may damage the entire historical building more.
:   4. He would lower his salary as president to a level slightly higher than what he currently receives as mayor, and make it the maximum salary for an official. But as every Mexican knows, the prize for a mexican politician is not his salary but the budget he controls. Is well known that Mexican politicians use the public revenue for their own benefit either in the form of direct misappropiation or through bribes and manipulation of public contracts. High political posts may render thousands of millions of dollars for a few individuals, and the salary may represent just an small percentage of their entire income. In the case of Lopez Obrador is well know that he did not autorized a law for public transparency in order to avoid public disclosure of his Government accounts. As any other PRI and PRD politician He knows how to misappropiate government funds and distract the public opinion with speaches, books, parades, protests, conference, music concerts and threats.
Any comments? thanks --Threner 22:41, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously fine to delete, it's not generally a useful addition, a lot of it is just opinion, and the author seems to have misunderstood the point of a section titled "Criticism" to be a place where users can add their criticism, rather than sum up existing criticism. Good call. Also, welcome, and thanks for editing the article, I think it's far from as NPOV as it could be, and that's not surprising, given that we've only been a couple of people making substantial edits. I'm sure that'll work itself out better when more people work on it. JZ 12:09, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Addition (More Critisism) 

message: I was requested on my page to look up what's going on here about 66.73.197.42. In reverse chronological order:
*   I don't see a de-wikification just changing words and phrasings, so this is more likely to fall over content disputes.
*  This one worries me since it's removing verifiable facts (the watch etc..) while pushing POV pro-AMLO. We shouldn't hide the bad stuff, both sides should be reported.
*  More POV pushing, removing not-so-good stuff about AMLO substituting with good stuff. For instance, one of the fisrt changes:
*::AMLO fostered a public image of frugality and relative honesty. He resides in a middle-class apartment near UNAM's main campus and owns an old car. However, the press published photographs of him wearing an expensive Tiffany's watch and an Hugo Boss suit in one of his morning press conferences.
*: becames
*:: AMLO fostered a public image of frugality and relative honesty. He resides in a modest apartment near UNAM's main campus and owns an older compact car.  According to all the published polls, López Obrador is considered the most honest of the three primary contendors for the Presidency.
*: at least it should be stated up to which date the polls are taken (and I recall some of them telling otherwise. Of course, they're dismissed by pro-AMLO people  as unreliable and biased, but that doesn't change the objective fact that not all polls say the same).
*  the same. For instance, the paragraph 
*::He also left the mayoralty of Mexico City with an 84% approval rating according to Mitosfky, a respected pollster. According to recent polls, AMLO is considered the presidential frontrunner.
*: needs to qualify recent (as in, date), since as of the time I'm writing this, there are polls that say otherwise. So let's keep things objective, relative statemetns like (highly, recent, etc.. ) should be made precise in order to avoid ambiguity and mantain neutrality. 
Well, that's what I see when glancing over the latest edits in the past weeks. --  ( drini's page ☎ ) 02:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drini's outside view 

message: Definitely biased.  To delete the fact about the corruption of his aids and his anti free market and anti liberalism ideology shows a lot of who is behind this article.
:Re: So, you find facts you don't like and delete them? So, someone doesn't agree with you and you know "who is behind" the article? I would suggest to find RESPECTED and NEUTRAL sources to aid into making a better article, instead of just deleting facts you don't like...
:On the other hand, I grant you that "his anti free market" and "anti liberalism" ideology are matters of opinion and should not be included. However, the corruption of some of his aids is a well documented fact. Why delete it? I think it is very relevant to the character of Mr. Lopez Obrador. If not for other things, to show how he dealt with the issue: by putting them on trial...
:Hari Seldon 05:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definitely biased. 

message: I recall there was a mention of this "contest" in the article, don't recall when or why it was taken out.  An anonymous user added it, would be nice to complement it like it used to stand in the article. 201.154.159.90 21:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: RE: What is the validity of this contest? Is it really useful to note that the world's most populated city voted his mayor the best of all? I mean, is it really an indication of how good or bad did Mr. AMLO did his job? Hari Seldon 23:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

text: RE: No, last time I checked, at least the link was still there... Hari Seldon 19:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Mayor Contest 

message: With the structure of the article cleaned up (as Primeditor says to have done), can we remove the "clean-up" tag from the article? Hari Seldon 21:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We could if we can truly keep it cleaned up. Primeditor 21:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I trust in our maturity. I'll eliminate the tag right now. Hari Seldon 03:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean Up 

message: Regarding your comment on center-left versus left leaning. There is nothing wrong with being from the left. Ricardo Lagos in Chile and Felipe Gonzalez among other successful statemen have called themselves from the left. The PRD has stated they represent the left in Mexico. Does insisting on using center-left means that to be a true left you have to be "left-left"?. Further, "left leaning" in reality is in a way softer than saying leftist or something of that sort. 
Also, I kindly suggest to avoid doing major changes and then highlighting them as "minor" in the comments.
Primeditor 21:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To user with IP 66.73.165.2