Talk:Scapegoating/Archive 1

message: American atheists and agnostics sometimes face prejudice although Atheism and Agnosticism are not technically Crimes. There are moral problems  in the United States, like casual sex, Alcohol and illegal Drug abuse and other crime.  Atheists, to lesser extent agnostics are easy scapegoats.  Examples of humanists leading moral lives are often ignored.  United States Mass media mostly feature atheists who can be seen as immoral.  Atheists are sometimes vilified and treated harshly.  Some atheists may to see themselves in the Stereotype and lose confidence in their capacity to be moral.  Others make a point of practicing moral humanism.
Where's the evidence that atheists and agnostics are scapegoated—by anyone other than Jerry Falwell and his ilk—for these "moral problems"? Also remember that not everyone thinks casual sex and alcohol/drug use are moral problems, and only drug use is always considered a crime —the others are only criminal in carefully delimited circumstances. —69.156.205.32 05:21, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: the above comment is related to the page history at Talk:Scapegoating/Old history. All the other comments on this page are related to the page history currently at the scapegoating article. Graham87 03:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Atheists

message: As written the article equates scapegoat with fall guy. My understanding is that a scapegoat is actually innocent but has blame attached to them to distract blame from others, whereas a fall guy is a participant in the wrongdoing (is actually guilty) but is one among a number of wrongdoers, and is made to "take the fall" to protect their fellow wrongdoers. The following reference agrees, although its hard to call it authoritative: http://blogs.newsobserver.com/grammar/index.php?m=200703   I have not changed this for the moment, absent a more definitive reference. The mess of an article over at Fall Guy makes the same potential mistake.
: As of today, the article at Fall guy seems much improved, and distinguishes several types of 'fall guy', only one of which overlaps with the meaning of 'scapegoat'. I agree that equating the term is potentially misleading, and besides it doesn't seem to add to this introduction section significantly. I've moved the reference down to the metaphor section, and introduce it as a 'related concept' rather than an equivalent term. Mooncow (talk) 18:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scapegoat vs. Fall Guy

message: ===Scapegoating is usually done by...===
Scapegoating in schools are usually done by bullies, people who like to force people to do things, and overlords.
=== Patsy ===
A patsy is a person who takes the fall for a crime. Lee Harvey Oswald is considered the best example.
I removed this text from the article in chief.  I'm not sure what the first is going on about --- admittedly, my school had overlords, and mad scientists and henchmen as well, but my experience is not ordinary.  The second strikes me as profoundly POV.  -- Smerdis of Tlön 15:31, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed text

message: A patsy is a person who takes the fall for a crime. Lee Harvey Oswald is considered the best example.
I removed this text from the article in chief.  I'm not sure what the first is going on about --- admittedly, my school had overlords, and mad scientists and henchmen as well, but my experience is not ordinary.  The second strikes me as profoundly POV.  -- Smerdis of Tlön 15:31, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patsy 

message: Were there ever any scaegoats? Wasn't it just a western mistranslation of the hebrew text?
:There were probably scapegoats, and the Hebrew text isn't mistranslated (as far as anybody knows, I believe). That said, it is unclear how much the ritual was actually practiced, but this is the case with a lot of "strange" ancient Israelite religious observances, such as the sabbatical and jubilee years and the injunction to stone your stubborn and rebellious child. Makaristos 06:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the terms have distinct connotations. Rather than remove it, I have described it as a 'related concept'. Mooncow (talk) 18:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mistranslation

message: The assertion in the section "Scapegoating" that equates "scapegoating" with "frameup" is questionable and misleading. I suggest that this sentence should be removed. The two terms have distinct connotations.
soverman 14:48 08 Oct 2005 (UTC)
: I agree the terms have distinct connotations. Rather than remove it, I have described it as a 'related concept'. Mooncow (talk) 18:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Frameup = scapegoating?

message: <BLOCKQUOTE>
Lev. 16:8-26; R.V., "the goat for Azazel" (q.v.), the name given to the goat
which was taken away into the wilderness on the day of Atonement (16:20-22).
The priest made atonement over the scapegoat, laying Israel's guilt upon it,
and then sent it away, the goat bearing "upon him all their iniquities unto a
land not inhabited." At a later period an evasion or modification of the law of
Moses was introduced by the Jews. "The goat was conducted to a mountain named
Tzuk, situated at a distance of ten Sabbath days' journey, or about six and a
half English miles, from Jerusalem. At this place the Judean desert was
supposed to commence; and the man in whose charge the goat was sent out, while
setting him free, was instructed to push the unhappy beast down the slope of
the mountain side, which was so steep as to insure the death of the goat, whose
bones were broken by the fall. The reason of this barbarous custom was that on
one occasion the scapegoat returned to Jerusalem after being set free, which
was considered such an evil omen that its recurrence was prevented for the
future by the death of the goat" (Twenty-one Years' Work in the Holy Land).
This mountain is now called el-Muntar.
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary, Public Domain
--JohnMajerus 04:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Easton's 1897 Bible  Dictionary 

message: Mobbing is a form of sociological scapegoating which occurs in the workplace. In support of this I include a quote from At The Mercy Of The Mob A summary of research on workplace mobbing by Kenneth Westhues, Prof. of Sociology University of Waterloo, published in OHS Canada, Canada's Occupational Health & Safety Magazine, Vol. 18, No. 8, December 2002, pp. 30-36. I believe this expert opinion supports inclusion of mobbing in this section. I have also waited for a month for response to my request above. Since there has been none and it is obviously appropriate I will go ahead and add an external link to http://mobbing.ca.
Radyx 22:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless Joshua Whittle concurrs I don't think you have a consensus. :-P Batvette (talk) 00:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description of mobbing added to Political/sociological scapegoating 

message: I took out the statement claiming that Bush is a good example of a political scapegoat.  If anything, Bush is receiving less criticism than he deserves for the decisions he has made. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.119.108.85 (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe your dislike for the man has you too blind to see the obvious? The desire to remove Saddam stretches way back to Clinton's administration, and the policy continues into the end of 2001 when a bipartisan group of congressmen issue a written demand to Bush that he act on the matter. By October 2002 the House and Senate pass the Iraq war bill, AKA AUMF on Iraq, which laid an unstoppable course to invade the country. Not a SINGLE new piece of intelligence came out of that country during Bush's tenure, the entire body of intel comes from Clinton's DCI Tenet- YET the media convinces everyone after the fact it was BUSH that made it all up and both houses of congress were his dupes- including senators and congressman who pick apart the CIA's budget for decades! Hillary Clinton too!  So America invades an energy rich middle east country to keep its resources from falling into the hands of France, China, and Russia, and its ruler from further agression with our allies KSA and Kuwait- the prior we owe all our prosperity since 1973 to-and we get to use a whole country as a shooting gallery for Al Qaeda for years-  And EVERYONE, including the world and the american  people, ALL get to blame it on one guy who went back home to Texas and will likely rarely be heard from again- and you say he's not a scapegoat for the decisions HE made? WE invaded a country and WE'RE playing victims of BUSH! That's how well it worked. That guy didn't decide what he had for breakfast every day. Please. Batvette (talk) 13:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bush a Scapegoat?  

message: One anthropological parallel I see here is the concept of mingi. In similarity to the Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary text for scapegoat (above), the ritual exclusion could and did include, as I recall from an old documentary on PBS, more violent means leading to death, such as throwing a child designated as mingi into the river to drown, which would prevent the great discomfort of having to face the apparition of one who reappears after a period of time. As I recall, those who were forcibly separated from their tribe would, if they were able, shadow their tribe at a distance, though they would eventually succumb to starvation or predators in the jungle. JohnMajerus 07:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ritual exclusion from group or tribe 

message: Someone made a complete mess of this section.  While technically correct (AFAICT), it is so muddled that it makes it sound as if the biblical *existence* of the concept of the scapegoat is based on a mistranslation, when it is simply the *term* "scapegoat" which is a mistranslation.  Someone needs to rewrite this as clearly as it is explained here: http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/brush_excerpts/brush_20040707.shtml 68.73.114.58 (talk) 05:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew Bible Section Confusing 

message: Are scapegoats  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.217.245.137 (talk) 19:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pedophiles 

message: I intend to reorganize this to put much more emphasis on the metaphorical meaning of scapegoating. --Penbat (talk) 22:20, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganising