Talk:Back to the Future timeline/Archive 2

message: In an effort to be more precise with our explanations of new timelines being created, I think it pertinent to define what constitutes forming a new timeline as I agree with the theory above that travelling forward in time does not constitute creating a new timeline.
A new timeline is created only when someone travels into the past, not the future. When Doc of timeline 2 travels to 2015 he is not creating an alternate timeline - he is simply moving forward along timeline 2. The timeline page correctly records this point. 
Thus, when Einstein travels one minute into the future he is also NOT creating a new timeline - he is simply moving forward within the same timeline he is already in. 
Think of it as cause and effect. In the normal scheme of things, something happens (effect) because something has caused it to happen. The thing which happens, happens AFTER the event which caused it. Einstein is sent to the future (Cause) Einstein arrives in the future -(Effect). 
When a new timeline is created (when someone travels to the past) the thing which happens, happens BEFORE the event which has caused it to happen. (Marty arrives in 1955 (effect) but he set off in 1985 (cause).
There seems to be some confusion on this matter and the wikipedia timeline page ERRONEOUSLY states: 
According to Doctor Emmett Brown in Back to the Future Part II, whenever a time-traveler alters key events occurring in the past or future, they effectively bring an alternate timeline into existence at their point-of-entry, and their original timeline is erased, even though its events are not forgotten by the time-traveler
The reality is that Doc (at the blackboard scene in 1985A) only said that new timelines are created by going into the past. When Marty suggested they travel to 2015 to stop old Biff ever getting his hands on the Almanac, Doc tells him that it wouldn't work as they would be travelling forward on the 1985A timeline to 2015A which would be a completely different 2015 to the one they came from... He doesn't say it would create a new timeline.
I will now address some of the above criticisms of this theory.
Ritchy wrote:
Well, the trip Doc, Marty and Jennifer take forward does create a new timeline. It changes from the timeline in which Marty Jr. is arrested, to the timeline in which Griff and his gang are arrested.
This is not true. It wasn't Doc, Marty & Jennifer travelling forward to 2015 which created this alternate timeline. It was Doc travelling from 2015 to 1985 to get them. Had he not travelled to the past the timeline 3 would not have been created - Doc, Marty and Jennifer merely moved forward along this timeline.
:But in 2015, while Doc tells Marty of all the bad stuff about to happen to his children, he shows Marty a future newspaper article of Marty Jr. being arrested. That headline only changes after Marty causes Griff and his gang to crash into the courthouse mall. Clearly, that's the point where the timeline changed - when Marty's actions in the future changed history. If your theory is true, shouldn't the newspaper have changed the second Doc, Marty and Jennifer got into 2015? -- Ritchy 19:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of a new Timeline (& why Einstein's jump doesn't count) 

message: When Marty found the old photo of Doc standing beside the clock at the library in 1955, and then had his picture taken beside of Doc in 1885, then should Marty's image appear on the one he got from the library?  When Marty arrives in 1985, and the delorean is destroyed, the photo is tore in half, with the side of Doc showing.
RobertCMWV1974 22:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems a little ambiguous. There's always the possibility that Doc stayed behind and had another picture taken by the clock without Marty there, and the solo picture was the one that ended up in 1955. But, like you noted, the picture of Doc from the 1955 library is torn in half at the end of Part III, so perhaps we'll never know. --Dynamite Eleven 16:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The photo gives the date as the day of the festival.  When Marty went back in time, He changed history by having his photo taken with Doc, thus changing the whole photo.  RobertCMWV1974 23:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You misunderstood me. I'm suggesting that there were TWO pictures made the night of the festival: one with Marty and Doc, and one with just Doc. Both were probably taken within moments of each other, and both took place after Marty went back in time. --Dynamite Eleven 00:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Comment: another possibility It seems to me Doc ought to have torn off Marty’s half to protect himself and Marty after the latter left him behind with Clara. A photo of the mysterious “Mr. Eastwood” might create problems.  Schweiwikist 16:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not necessarily, 100 years would have passed since the photo was taken, there are people who look like celebrities all the time, could not hte same thing be applied to people in history?DCJoeDog 18:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are indeed two pictures. The first is the one Doc took by himself, in the timeline where Marty never went back and Doc died on September 7th 1885. That's the picture Marty found in 1955, and the one seen in the train-wreaked DeLorean in 1985. The second picture was taken in the altered timeline where Marty went back to save Doc. That's the picture Doc gave to Marty as a parting gift before blasting off in his time-train. -- Ritchy 19:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Old Photo Of Doc

message: Wouldn't Doc, Marty, and Jennifer have left 10/21/2015 from Timeline 4 instead of Timeline 3? Biff had just returned from 1955 and faded out of existence when the three went back to the "alternate" 1985 as shown in Timeline 5. --Zpb52 00:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the scene that was cut from Part II, Biff starts to fade after he comes back to 2015, then disappears completely right at the same time as the DeLorean blasts into the past. The implication, IMO, is that the timeline was in the process of switching from T3 to T4, and the transformation was only completed when Biff completely vanished, right when Doc & co. left 2015. Therefore, they left in Timeline 3, not Timeline 4. -- Ritchy 02:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But because it was cut from the film release, it isn't part of the film.  It is therefore unknown what (and when) happenned to Biff.  Val42 02:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe a deleted scene (that was strongly hinted at in the movie) is canon quality. 12.208.40.109 19:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. Regardless of the content of the scene or why it was deleted, a deleted scene cannot be considered canon. --71.155.164.147 18:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 3 vs Timeline 4 

message: The one who helps Marty go back to 1885...what happens to him?  Does he fade away after Marty leaves, or is he still around at the end of the movie (giving us a "time-travelling married Doc" and a "Hill Valley single Doc")? Thanos6 06:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 7 1955 Doc 

message: 2000s - 2010s 
Date unknown: Continuing a national trend, the Hill Valley local newspaper closes or sells its printing and news-gathering operations to USA Today to create yet another local edition of the nationwide newspaper. The local newspaper is becoming obsolete as national chains with thousands of local editions take over. 
Date unknown: Invention of: hover conversion, Mr. Fusion, the Black & Decker hydrator, the Mattel hoverboard, power shoelaces and self-drying jackets, skyways, rejuvenation clinics, suspended-animation kennels, automated gas stations, automated dog-walking leashes, thumbprint ID verifications, the 300+ channel universe, automated hovering news units (as used by USA Today), roll-down TV sets (the McFly home runs the Scenery Channel on it in a window). 
Date unknown: The United States abolishes the trade of lawyers, allowing the justice system to move with far greater speed and efficiency. The National Weather Service develops extremely detailed forecasting ability (to the minute). 
Date unknown: Relations with Vietnam improve and now there are promotions to surf there 
Date unknown: Pepsi introduces Pepsi Perfect, a vitamin enriched cola (Marty would have ordered this from the video waiter at the Café 80's).''
What proof is there that any of these couldn't have happened in the '90s? We never see 1986-2014; conceivably, these inventions and events could have happened before the 2000s. Max22 03:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inventions 

message: To start off, it has Timeline 0 continue with Marty existing, assuming he didn't go back to 1955. However, this cannot be considered canon, as he did indeed go back in time. With the way the Timelines are set up, Marty should go back in time and disappear from any moment afterwards in Timeline 0. Also, due to no alterations happening in the past, some things written that happen after 1985 aren't certain, and the things involving Marty should never happen because he travelled back in time.
Then, Timeline 1 should be replaced with Timeline 2. Travelling to the future does not change the timeline. There are absolutely no alterations made from travelling to the future, only from travelling to the past.
I didn't get too far in the article, and I assume the same mistakes are made throughout.
:Actually, a new timeline is created whenever a time traveller causes something to happen that would not have happend without him. Sometimes, after their action, they showed a photograph or newspaper changing as evidence that they are now in a new timeline. Since they sometimes made more than one change during a visit to a time period, this article reports the accumulate effect of all the changes made during each visit.
:Also, the way the space-time continuum works in this movie, the future does exist, even if nobody visits that future. In BTTF2, Marty leaves Jennifer and Einstein in 1985A (Timeline 4) to have adventures in the past, and he doesn't see them again until he returns to 1985 in BTTF3 (Timeline 8).  So, where were Jennifer and Einstein in Timelines 5-7?  They were in a future that never actually played out.
:So, whether he goes forward or backward in time, the moment he uses the time machine to disappear from the timeline, he changes the future since he might not return; but the future of the timeline he left is the most likely future (which is why Marty could see himself and his family when he visits the future.)GUllman 21:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote something here about this yesterday, but either I failed to hit "Save page" or it didn't hit or got rolled back somehow. I've been thinking about this, and it does seem that forward travel doesn't make a change.  The one obvious exception, doing something about Marty's kids, isn't one, really.  Although they are in 2015, they are in the past with respect to the newspaper and the robbery attempt, so it's really the same set up as "George McFly Honored" and the kiss at the dance.  The future is not affecting the past (except as information to be used in the past), but the past affects the future. What constitutes the future is anything from after that moment, whether that moment is in 1955, 1985 or 2015.  So the hoverboard chase is the past, relative to the robbery attempt, affecting the near future.  As for Einstein's one-minute trip, it doesn't affect the past, and it doesn't change the future per se.  It affects the future only in the way that Doc Brown taking about the Libyans in Timeline 0 affects the future, or me going to the gym today affects the future.  It is part of the ongoing tide or events, not a revision of a known timeline.  I think. Karen | Talk | contribs 22:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This section is a little messed up 

message: Red, the resident homeless man in 1985, was Mayor in 1955. In parts 1 and 2, he is found sleeping on benches in 1985, but in part 2 1985A, he is found near Biff's lair. Does this constitute a change in the timeline? Even if not, should it be marked in the timeline as detail? -Jennifer 00:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red 

message: The timeline indicates that the national weather service is merely able to predict the weather down to the minute.  I would argue, however, that Doc indicates that the NWS actually makes or controls the weather.  The script reads as follows:
DOC:  First you're gonna have to get out and change clothes.
MARTY: Doc, it's pouring rain.
DOC: Oh, right... (Checks his watch) Wait 3 more seconds.
(Rain stops, sun comes out)
DOC: Right on the tick.  Too bad the Post Office isn't as efficient as the weather service.
Doc doesn't say that the NWS is "accurate" which would refer to a prediction ability.  Rather, he says, they are "efficient."  Weather forecasters in the 1980s were never known for their "efficiency" or inefficiency": They're not thought of in that way at all.  They are often chided, however, for their lack of accuracy.   Furthermore, he specifically compares their "efficiency" to that of the post office.  The post office brings things.  As a third piece of evidence, as soon as the rain ends the sun comes out, in a magical and very unrealistic way.  I believe, because of this, that Doc was referring to the weather service having the ability to control the weather.
In the future, the weather service is not just accurate, but efficient, in that it brings us the weather, and right on time too!
Allthewhile 02:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In the Future, the National Weather Service MAKES the weather, not merely predicts it! 

message: I removed the paragraph from the end of Timeline 6 where Marty receives the letter from Western Union. This can only happen in Timeline 7, as in Timeline 6 there was no Doc Brown in the Old West. Timeline 6 ends when the DeLorean is struck by lightning and Doc Brown goes back in time. 66.26.72.27 17:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch! Karen | Talk | contribs 23:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline Six problem 

message: During the second film there must be four delorean's on November 12 1955. The first we see in the first film. The second is being used by future Biff to give young biff the book. The third is the one being used to chase Biff and reclaimed/burn that book. The fourth is from 1885, hidden under ground, from the third film.
:The fourth Delorean would only be hidden underground in Timelines 7 and 8, the timelines created "after" Doc got sent back to 1885. In timeline 6, when Marty chases Biff for the almanac and before Doc's Delorean gets hit by lightning, there is no Delorean underground. After Doc is hit by lightning, he goes back in time, and his actions in the past cause a new 1955 to exist, one with a fourth Delorean underground. -- Ritchy 16:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Timelines do not exist in tandem - that's why Marty was disappearing in BTTF1, and why they ended up in the wrong timeline in BTTF2. The Western Union guy appeared to give Marty the letter after the Delorean was hit by lightning. After Doc went into the past and changed the timeline. He was not part of Timeline 6, but of Timeline 7, the one where Doc lived in 1885. -- Ritchy 17:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four delorean's 

message: I do not believe there is any evidence that doc brown does not exist in 1885 in timeline 6, when the doc and marty traveled back in time to 1955 to get the book form Biff. The whole timeline may change including the 1885 timeline where doc is killed may be altered into time line 6 as doc and maty travel back to 1955 to get the book form Biff. It is a simpler explanation than suggesting the timeline alters everytime time travel is used.
I do not believe there is a need for timeline 7. I think we can take Occam's razor approach which states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off", those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. In short, when given two equally valid explanations for a phenomenon, one should embrace the less complicated formulation. 
This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.
Therefore if we undersatnd that Marty and Doc travelled back to timeline 6 and doc always travelled back to 1885 since marty and doc destroyed the book, then there would be no need for timeline 7. Timeline seven would in fact be that which was played out in the third film. Timeline 6 would include the death of doc brown in 1885. Its just there doesnt seem to be a need for this extra timeline, timeline 7 as you suggest. Therefore it could be assumed that the indeed 4 delorean existsed on november 12 1955 since the timeline that was altered to timeline 6 included the travelled back to 1885.
:This theory is just that - a theory. It is not only unsubstantiated by the movies, but in fact it contradicts the movies on several points. It is the very definition of OR that is banned from Wikipedia. The scope of this article has to be limited to what is said and seen on-screen, and cannot include fan interpretations and personal theories of what happened. -- Ritchy 16:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anonymous theory

message: Timeline Zero is partly wrong. If you watch the first movie, the only reason that the clock tower stops is not because of the lighting that struck it, but because of the wire that Doc hooked to the clock. When the lightning struck, it went down that wire and into the clocktower's inner workings, breaking the device. The reason it's broken at the start of the movie is because of Doc's actions in the alternative past. Coolgamer 19:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's an interesting idea, but it doesn't pan out based on what Bob Zemeckis and Bob Gale had said about the way time travel works in the films.  As of Timeline 0, Doc Brown doesn't go near the clock tower that night, having no reason to do so. This is because changes in what happened never ripple backwards into the previous timeline.  In Timeline 0, Marty was never in 1955, and Doc Brown never needed to power the DeLorean with a bolt of lightning. -- Karen | Talk | contribs 20:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Doc had no part in stopping the clock (the lightning would do it with or without him), but he did break the ledge in front of the clock.  At the beginning of the movie, the clock is stopped but the ledge in front of the clock is not broken.  When Marty returns to the changed 1985, we find the ledge is broken as a result of Doc's actions. GUllman 02:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Clock 

message: I've noticed that many editors want to place a fourth DeLorean in Timeline 6, namely the one Doc buries in 1885, or the one Marty takes back to 1885. Please try to keep in mind this simple rule, as established by the filmmakers: nothing that happens at the end of the timeline affects that timeline; rather, it creates a new one.  If Doc leaves 1955 at the end of Timeline 6, therefore, he was never in 1885 as of Timeline 6, he never saved Clara, and he never buried the DeLorean. In Timeline 7, Doc arrived in 1885, buried the DeLorean and was killed, and Clara survived and erected the gravestone. However, Marty has not yet been to 1885, so he has not brought back the Delorean to that time, and the ravine is unlikely to be named either Clayton or Eastwood in 1985. I know this stuff is hard to wrap the brain around, but please keep this in mind in future edits: the timeline never contains events that originate with (or after) the time travel event at the end of that timeline.  Thanks! Karen | Talk | contribs 00:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: DeLorean count redux and related issues