Talk:The Great Global Warming Swindle/Archive 2

message: :Enought is not said on this, he used a graph knowing it was out dated, as he could not use the current one with an extra 17 years of data. The last 17 years which shows solar activity decreasing and temprature increasing rapidly, contradicts his is "solar activity". Which is why he did not use it,as I shows his theory is not correct.
:This deliberate misleading and rigging of information should be made more of, as it shows Durkin and his information can not be taken seriously.--203.87.127.18 12:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Durkins editing of the temprature compared to solar activity graph

message: I removed this paragraph:
The Times reported that Durkin had seriously fallen out with a scientist who had been considering working with him. Armand Leroi was concerned that Durkin had used data about a correlation between solar activity and global temperatures which had subsequently been found to be flawed. Leroi sent Durkin an e-mail saying, "To put this bluntly: the data that you showed in your programme were... wrong in several different ways". He copied the e-mail to scientific author Simon Singh. Durkin responded to Leroi saying "You’re a big daft cock". Singh sent an email to Durkin urging him to engage in serious debate. Durkin responded stating, "Since 1940 we have had four decades of cooling, three of warming, and the last decade when temperature has been doing nothing", and concluded with, "Go and fuck yourself".[15] Durkin later apologised for his language, saying that he had sent the e-mails when tired and had just finished making the programme, and that (despite his comments) he was "eager to have all the science properly debated with scientists qualified in the right areas".[26]
If you care to, you could list what professional objections Leroi has, but the rest does not belong in this article.
can we add to it the comparison two graphs that relate to this  ie showing the fudged/ "smoothed" data and the raw data?  Cilstr 06:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Detailings of ad hominem attacks are irrelevant to this article

message: I added that the film makers regard the TGGWS as The definitive answer to Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth and it is removed twice because it is considered a "sales pitch".
You could say "the self-proclaimed 'definitive answer to Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth'", which is kinda what you had but reworded.  Maybe that's less of a sales pitch?  71.247.1.154 00:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally wouldn't have a problem with this if you can provide a source which gives that exact quote- we're already quoting from the film's publicity, after all. However it's KimDabelsteinPetersen you need to persuade. --Merlinme 13:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not quite sure what Mr. Petersen is talking about. The quote comes from the official Web site. That's a reliable source. ~ UBeR 19:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've given the reason several times - its part of the advertising campaign - Ads are not in general WP:RS. Notice the placing of the quote (right side - second box) - its a sales pitch/advertising blurb for the DVD. Its not a "quote". Please refer to a serious article/text stating this - and i'll shut up about including it. Although it doesn't belong in the lead even if found (imho). --Kim D. Petersen 08:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd have nothing against it if its part of a description of how the film is advertised/promoted in a section on this subject - possibly with a description of where the movie has been shown (has anyone but Channel 4 shown it?) --Kim D. Petersen 09:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does Wikipedia say text from an official Web site is unreliable. I must have skimmed over that part. ~ UBeR 16:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: UBeR are you deliberately trying to be a devils advocate? The 2nd box is a clear advertising space - its attached to the page in that it advertises for the product that the page is about - but its still an Ad. Ads are usually made by advertising people - they are not in general known for their validity etc etc. I'd btw take the same stance if someone tried to add such a blurb to the lead for AIT. (ie. you owe your children to see this... *blerch*) --Kim D. Petersen 18:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is an ad, as you proclaim, there should be no problem with writing "it was advertised as the definitive answer to AIT." It fits well with the one of the intro sentences, "Publicity for the programme states that the mainstream theory of global warming is 'a lie' and 'the biggest scam of modern times.'" I don't see much of a difference from publicity statements vs. ads. ~ UBeR 19:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: UBeR if you had read the above - then you would notice that i don't oppose that it is mentioned - i simply oppose that it is important or reliable enough to be used in the lead. (read that again: the lead). A section on how the movie has been promoted, what channels it has been shown on, what reactions it spawned in media etc - is a natural given for an article of this kind. --Kim D. Petersen 19:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been promoted as the definitive answer to AIT... ~ UBeR 19:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really have a problem with quoting the film's publicity, as long as it's in made clear what source is and it's in quotemarks then people can make their own minds up. But changing the opening paragraph to say things like "asks how without solid supporting evidence the theory that mankind is largely to blame for climatic change is considered an undisputable fact"- that's outrageous. Who says this? Dean1970? We're supposed to stick to the facts and use 3rd party sources wherever possible, not make highly leading statements like "without solid supporting evidence". Many of us (including just about every climate scientist who's ever looked at it) would argue strongly that there is very solid supporting evidence, . --Merlinme 21:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening paragraph

message: RealClimate is exactly the kind of blog our exception was written for. It is written by a group of professional, recognized, published researchers in the field. It has been positively mentioned by Science (journal) and Nature (journal) and has been recognized as an excellent resource by other third parties. --Stephan Schulz 20:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the author of that blog, WMC, having very strong opinions against the subject of this article, and having been a heavy and controversial editor of this article, is the very situation that WP:COI was written for. - Merzbow 21:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: William is not the author of RealClimate, he is an author -- in fact, one of 11 regular contributors  (all notable, published, respected climate scientists). And he is not the author of the article in question, but an author, together with Gavin A. Smith. And he did not introduce that material in the first place (though, as has been pointed out, he has reverted its deletion).--Stephan Schulz 07:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If he was adding his own comments, perhaps.  But he isn't the one adding his own comments.  If there is a COI here it is on the part of editors removing sources on the basis of their personal dislike for the author of the source.  Don't remove sources based on your personal opinion of the author of the source.  Guettarda 21:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He DID add his own comments, check out yesterday's change history, and he marked the edit as minor to boot. If he chooses not to edit this article for a long period of time, then the COI disappears. Until then, it's inappropriate to include comments from the unmoderated blog of a heavy contributor to the article with a strong negative POV against the article's subject. Is this a precedent we really want to set? - Merzbow 22:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's interesting is that the objections are all about William. It can't be denied that the program did use old data, that it did fudge the graphs, and that it did use older studies without mentioning more recent ones that would have refuted them.   Raymond Arritt 22:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's interesting is that William had continuously editing disruptively on this page with replacing documentary with propaganda on many occasions, as well as other POV-pushing edits that were disrutive. That said and exercising caution, his opinion ought not be valid here. What is more important is that there is a more reliable and less contentious source pointing out the same things you pointed out above, and it is used in the article. ~ UBeR 22:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And it looks like the policy is correct, per the Independent: "If the information on the professional researcher's blog is really worth reporting, a reliable source will probably have covered it." ~ UBeR 22:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't completely agree- I trust scientists more than journalists, and I trust two sources more than one. I would prefer to leave the RealClimate quote in, although I would agree it would be better if we could find other scientific sources to use. --Merlinme 22:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: What do you expect us to think about this particular source's ability to write objectively about this subject without peer review when he continues to make edits like this? We're being taken for a ride here. - Merzbow 01:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, your personal dislike of a person is not a valid reason to delete accurate information from the article.  If you want to change Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines to say that articles should only be based on peer-reviewed literature, feel free.  But you can't just make up rules to exclude people you dislike.  Guettarda 02:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're sadly mistaken if you think that the blog exception gives you absolute right to insert such sources without consideration of any other factors that may impact the reliability of the source - namely conflict-of-interest. - Merzbow 03:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually WP:NOR makes it clear that WMC is in violation of policy by re-inserting this material himself. I quote: "If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, then s/he may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy." A blog post to a blog one controls is hardly "publication". - Merzbow 03:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: RealClimate and Scienceblogs are reliable sources.  Your quote says that you should not include material which was not published in a reliable publication.  These are reliable publications...this is precisely the type of source that the blog exception describes.  This is exactly the type of thing that the line you quoted from NOR permits.  The only conflict on interest I see here is that of people who choose to use their dislike for the author of a source as a reason for excluding the source.  Yes, there is a conflict on interest here - yours.  Guettarda 03:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The best joke is that no one has suggested that the source is inaccurate...just that they don't like the person who write it.  Guettarda 04:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The real problem is that editors are seeking any excuse to delete any reference to the scientific literature that would show that, on almost every point, the claims made in the film are nonsense. Their ideal would be to restrict reference to peer-reviewed publications that refer specifically to TGGWS. Of course, given the time lags, no such publications exist, and by the time any  arise, some new piece of propaganda will have been produced, and we can all play the same game of whack-a-mole with that. JQ 04:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It permits in the narrowest sense of the word, emphasizing that "Editors should exercise caution for two reasons" - the language is quite clear on that, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to show otherwise. But if you feel you have to twist the letter and spirit of policy for the greater good of defeating "propaganda", don't let us stand in your way. But rest assured that any neutral reader who happens to cross-reference the article change history with article cites, or stumble upon this talk page, will not be fooled. Remember who you're trying to convince here - not me, not Uber, but the readers. - Merzbow 05:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with JQ entirely. The facts should be stated. Mostlyharmless 07:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why can't we have the same standards as listed on other GW articles?  The limiting of "Peer reviewed publications" is everywhere else, why not here also?--Zeeboid 15:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RealClimate link 

message: I tried to tidy up the intro and it is constantly deleted and replaced with critisim that actually has it own section. I even tried to replace the wording that Raymond deemed a little contentious but still this is not good enough. If you look at other TV programmes on wikipedia the intro starts with a brief synopsis explaining what the programme is about, etc.
Critisisms and quotes from other media sources belong in their own section. 
I'm going to add it back. And ask that editors bear in mind the points I make before reverting it back to critisism. --Dean1970 21:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see my comments under "Opening paragraph". I'm afraid I find your version a very long way from NPOV, and as far as I can tell, it's completely unsourced. I've reverted. --Merlinme 21:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where, exactly? None of it is in quote marks, and it's so full of NPOV words I don't know where to start: "without solid supporting evidence", "used as fact to an unsuspecting public", "questions the reluctance of scientists to acknowledge the role of the Sun", this is ridiculous, all climate scientists accept the role of the Sun, the question is how much effect the Sun has. You then finish on "claims the biggest obstacle to rational debate on climate change is the use of the IPCC consensus argument" when I don't remember the programme mentioning the "IPCC consensus argument" once. Dean1970, please don't use this article to push your own point of view. --Merlinme 22:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The "synopsis" seems to be the same stuff Mm removed before - so I've removed it again, on the same grounds William M. Connolley 22:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Dean, you're right, there's nothing wrong with writing a synopsis of a film. However it has to be an accurate synopsis, and I didn't recognise the language you used as coming from the film, a lot of it sounded like your own opinions. The synopsis also has to be encyclopedic, which is to say, writing should either be uncontentious and factual, or attributed. I'm afraid your synopsis was neither. There may be a case for a synopsis for TGGWS (although the main arguments are summarised quite soon afterwards). But if you write it in such a blatantly biased way, you can expect it to be reverted. --Merlinme 22:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Dean, none of the words in your section had quotemarks around them, so it was impossible for a reader to tell what was your opinion and what the film makers had said. To be an appropriate section, you should have put quote marks around the actual quotes and given references so people could check that was what was said. It's not helped by the fact that I know for a fact you've made edits in the past which put words in people's mouths, e.g. the Kenyan clinic doctor never said: "while western enviromentalists enjoy the benefits of modern energy being supplied to its hospitals via fossil fuel burning power plants".  If you look at the transcript, he didn't say that, or anything even close to that, so you'll forgive me if I'm dubious when you make edits which aren't referenced. Even with quotemarks and references, the synopsis would still have to add something to the article- the article is long, and the programme's claims are already summarised. But quotemarks and references would be a start. --Merlinme 07:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: There were a brief couple of sentences on Africa before, but it's true that we now have a section which more reflects the weight the programme gave to Africa, thank you for that. I personally thought the African section was one of the weaker parts of the programme- no mention was made of the fact that the Kyoto protocol specifically excludes developing countries, for example, and you can get solar power in places which don't have a National Grid- but it was quite a large part of the programme, so we should reflect that. But that wasn't what I was saying: I was saying I don't trust you to accurately report other sources. In that edit you didn't mix the words so much as completely make them up. The doctor never said a word about western environmentalists, and he never said a word about First World hospitals powered by fossil fuels. An encylopedia shouldn't make things up, and it should have references which can be checked. --Merlinme 08:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Glad to hear that you'll make constructive and sourced edits. 3rr does not mean you cannot make edits, but it does mean that you cannot make edits which are very nearly the same as something you've already reverted several times. If you are going to add in a synopsis, listen to other people's comments, and write it again taking into account the following things: put actual quotes in quote marks, and add references; when you're not using direct quotes, avoid contentious or biased language; and try and make sure the synopsis adds something to the article, bearing in mind that we already have a summary of the main arguments of the film, and a list of all the other claims immediately after. A brief description of the film in chronological order would add something, for example. One of my problems with your synopsis was that you seemed to be repeating material we had elsewhere, only with more inflammatory language. --Merlinme 08:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I have replaced the word "argues" in the lead. See the definitions at dictionary.com  - in all of them where this context is used the definition is "present reasons and arguments" or similar. "Fights" and "rails" both carry definitions and connotations which include comment on the nature of the argument. They are not neutral. QmunkE 10:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I've gone one step further with "disagrees with", which per dictionary.com is "to differ in opinion; dissent".  --Skyemoor 10:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disagrees is OK. Argues is non-neutral for precisely the defn Q gives: it implies reasnning, which the film didn't William M. Connolley 11:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop trolling. Argue is perfectly neutral. It implies nothing, it doesn't imply rationality or irrationality. I'm rationally arguing right now with an irrational 'person' (you).--Rotten 14:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment added back after Willaim removed it for being disagreeable.  I added it back and edited in the word 'person' to tone it down.--Zeeboid 14:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This is ridiculous - how can a documentary "disagree" with anything? It isn't a person - Durkin might disagree with the mainstream view, the documentary is his argument. Read the definitions - just because you don't believe the reasons given in the documentary (true or false, that isn't what's important here) doesn't mean it isn't an argument. QmunkE 13:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Using your own logic, how can a documentary "argue" with anything? It isn't a person. "Disagrees" is more neutral and the definition fits. --Skyemoor 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It is also POV to describe the film as "controversial" in the opening sentence.  We don't do this with AIT.  Iceage77 14:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From the scientific standpoint, TGGWS is controversial. You allusion to AIT refers to political and  special interest machinations.  Important difference.  --Skyemoor 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text:  This *is* ridiculuous - how can a doc "argue" with anything - it isn't a person. And re controv - please read the long long edit war stuff before starting off the war again William M. Connolley 14:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you, William applying all your same rules and opinion to the other global warming documentary out there?--Zeeboid 14:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course not.  That represents the holy word of the Goracle and is beyond criticism. Iceage77 14:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your POV slip is showing. If you want to be taken seriously, apply the 5 pillars of WP. --Skyemoor 15:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I have edited the introduction so the language used is similar to that in An Inconvenient Truth. Seems neutral enough to me, no "argue", no "rails", no "fights". Better? QmunkE 15:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your version side-steps the issue and this seems like a good way to do it (I reject the comparison with AIT, but thats another matter) William M. Connolley 15:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro to the documentary 

message: Could people please remain civil? As for the particular issue of "argues" in the introduction, I don't really understand why we're in an edit war about it. WMC, even bad arguments are arguments; even arguments which are proved to be false are arguments; I can argue that night is day, if I want to. To disagree with the use of the word anywhere in relation to TGGWS seems over the top to me. Durkin uses a series of arguments, whether one agrees with them or not is irrelevant. --Merlinme 15:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another call for civility 

message: The quotes from Steve Milloy add little to the article and tend to veer off onto Junk Science material.  This is clearly more appropriate for a POV blog than an encyclopedia, so it has been trimmed accordingly. --Skyemoor 01:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Junk Science Quotes

message: Please be aware that certain editors are patrolling the bio's of the contributers to this documentary and deleting any reference to their participation in the documentary. As Patrick Moore quite rightly summises these people are injecting their neo-marxism into their beliefs. Wikipedia (left to these guys) will turn into a bad night in East Berlin unless their stasi tactics are exposed. --Dean1970 02:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dean please be civil --Kim D. Petersen 02:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you please name the articles in question so they can be corrected as necessary? If someone participated in TGGWS, that seems worth noting. Raymond Arritt 02:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dean1970 added a link from the Zoe Williams article to this one, simply because Williams happened to review the documentary for the Guardian TV section, when it was broadcast. I think there's some tenuous over-linking going on here, and I wouldn't be surprised if other random editors were deleting it as inappropriate detail. --McGeddon 10:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Hm, the first couple that I looked at -- Lindzen and Michaels -- did mention TGGWS. The mention in the Lindzen article was not very well written so I tweaked it a little. (There were some punctuation problems and the like.) Raymond Arritt 03:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You're presumably upset that I took out the bit of puffery about the folks in TGGWS being "prominent" scientists. Some are (e.g., Lindzen), but the scientific accomplishments of some others are meager at best (e.g., Ball), while others are somewhere in the middle. Raymond Arritt 04:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: One pretty clear example. Was the first and only one I looked at so far. I'm sure this is far ranging. ~ UBeR 03:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Second, of the third I looked at. Third of fourth. Etcetera. ~ UBeR 03:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: My own view is that if anyone participated significantly in TGGWS then it deserves mention.  Raymond Arritt 04:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I agree completely. Why Mr. Petersen feels otherwise is beyond me. Perhaps he has forgotten that Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, that it publishes from verifiable and reliable sources, and the spirit of Wikipedia is negotiating through talk pages. Shame. ~ UBeR 04:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then what about every other TV program/"documentary" that addresses GW? That could be in the many dozens; for example News' "The Debate Continues", and so forth. Do we include each of these? Is it encyclopedic to do so? --Skyemoor 11:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While anyone who participated significantly should be mentioned, it's less clear that anyone mentioned in passing or whose name rolls by on the credits should be. I just don't see the point in that -- it adds clutter to the bios, and it's not like their stances on the issue aren't clear anyway. Raymond Arritt 14:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: My stance on this is pretty reasonably provided on Talk:John Christy#Appearances section - Skyemore in the above hits one of my critiques of this pretty close to the mark. Can anyone explain to me why this particular movie is especially interesting on the bio-pages? Is it the intention that we should have every prominent appearence by anyone in some kind of production added to the biopages of the participants? Please think about this for a bit. Please reflect over WP:NOT and the intentions implied here in. Are these people famous because of their appearance in this movie? Please also reflect over noteworthy-ness in the broader aspects of an encyclopedia. (ie. try to focus away from this movie, and focus on the biography - is this particular movie noteworthy compared to the biography - does an the entry put undue weight compared to the subjects other information etc.) --Kim D. Petersen 15:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To simplify what i'm saying in the above: When you are editing an article you have to think in the context of the article... In the context of TGGWS the appearaces of the scientists are important - but please change your context of thinking when you are on the biography pages and ask yourself: is it important in the context of the biography? --Kim D. Petersen 15:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's sort of what I meant by "participated significantly."  We treat it like any other film -- a bio mention could be OK for the star of the show (or a few leading characters), but not for every walkon or person whose name appears in the credits. Raymond Arritt 15:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I guess Lindzen didn't play a big role in the film... ~ UBeR 16:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you seen the film UBeR? How many minutes do you think Lindzen is in? How do you think he compares to the other scientists in length of appearance? But more importantly: Ask yourself how important is this movie in Lindzen life? Should it be a notable part of Lindzen biography - how does it scale compared to his other accomplishments? Even when limiting things to his sceptical public appearances? --Kim D. Petersen 16:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Dean, again we must remind you to maintain civility.  --Skyemoor 11:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What skyemoor means is that on Wikipedia it is a custom for members to find a more subtle way of dissing people. :) The machine512 14:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Censorship issues

message: I would be willing to offer this compromise: This paragraph
:: Climate scientists William Connolley and Gavin Schmidt write in the RealClimate blog that the programme selectively used data that was sometimes decades old in making its arguments, altered graphs to make it appear that older observations had been made more recently, and used older scientific studies when more recent research would have disagreed with the film's conclusions. (Ref RC blog)
is unacceptable for WP:SPS reasons. However if the problems with accuracy of the data should be mentioned in the article, the Independent link (currently ref 6) says basically the same thing. Why don't we remove mention of WMC and Gavin Schmidt and RealClimate, and instead use the Independent article as the foundation for this statement? I hope if nothing else, that this compromise makes it clear that my goal for the article is factual accuracy and reliable sources - not to "cover up" anything. --Tjsynkral 03:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The subject of WP:SPS was addressed above in "Be aware of WP:SPS".  Your reopening of that subject, like many other points you attempt to reopen and argue all over again, is disruptive.  There is no need to remove references to two climate scientists and replace it with a link to a newspaper article, though there is no reason the newspaper article reference can be added.  You've shown no compelling rationale to support the claim that your suggestion is in any way improving the article's "factual accuracy and reliable sources".  --Skyemoor 10:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: For the moment I'll leave it to others to comment on the proposed compromise, but I'd still appreciate clarification of "removal of information about the contributors to the film addressed above" since that appears to be the other major point of contention. That will need to be addressed as well. Raymond Arritt 03:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's actually User:Dean1970's dispute, not mine. I'm awaiting his comment. --Tjsynkral 03:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV section break 1

message: Also, the citation of John Houghton is a personal website article . I do not accept the inclusion of a personal website article under the same WP:SPS reason. This posting is not fact-checked, and I'm certain we can do better at finding a WP:RS on this. So this objection remains, and even if the above compromise is accepted there is still an issue with the John Houghton link. --Tjsynkral 03:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Houghton's statement is a clear example of what WP:RS specifically allows:  Houghton's statement is useful as a source for what Houghton thinks; "what Houghton thinks" is of interest in and of itself because of his relation to the IPCC. Note the material is couched specifically in those terms. Had the material been used in a general way, without the specific context of summarizing Houghton's views, you might have a point. Raymond Arritt 03:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Can it be made certain that this is the same guy who is writing this, and not a poser? The domain of personal web pages makes falsified identity a possibility. Also, I believe the section on Houghton ought to be smaller and further down the page, so as not to give undue weight to the opinion of someone who no longer represents the IPCC as expressed on his personal web page. --Tjsynkral 04:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Can it be made certain that this is the same guy who is writing this, and not a poser?" You're really stretching here; careful you don't pull a muscle. Houghton is sufficiently prominent, and his statement so widely reported, that the likelihood of the statement being spurious and going undetected is less than zero. Raymond Arritt 05:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll have to trust you on that - although we're still left with the undue weight problem. This person is entitled to his opinion, but he hasn't got the same relevance or trustworthiness as someone who is still a member of the IPCC today. --Tjsynkral 05:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report hadn't been released at the time the film was made. The report of standing -- and thus the report relevant to TGGWS -- was the Third Assessment Report. (Surely you'll grant that they weren't discussing a report that didn't yet exist.) Since Houghton was first author for Working Group I of that report, his views arguably are more important than those of the AR4 authors. Raymond Arritt 06:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It's a "BAS statement" and is attributed as such. I don't know who actually wrote it, and it doesn't matter. As an official statement of the organization it is irrelevant who actually wrote it, be that WMC, the director of BAS, or the night watchman. If you have any suspicion that the statement may be forged you can get in touch with the BAS. The contact points for their press office are given here. Raymond Arritt 05:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also believe the WMC blog material should be replaced with a more reliable source; an exception is just that, for exceptional circumstances, and given issues of COI and that there is a wide swath of other reliable sources for criticism of this film, I don't believe we should be applying the exception here. - Merzbow 06:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On what basis do you presume the material to be unreliable? As it agrees with a source you prefer, why not both, since they reinforce each other? --Skyemoor 13:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: It cannot be COI since several editors (not WMC) want it on the page. Otherwise you are saying that RC cannot be used on climate related pages - since WMC is around. Raise your COI concerns here. --Kim D. Petersen 09:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm seems that one is about to closed - but i still urge you to read it, and User:Durovas conclusion. --Kim D. Petersen 09:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV section break 2

message: Are we supposed to take seriously the comments of a "scientist" who makes edits like these? 
Diff 1 20:23, 8 April 2007
Diff 2 20:43, 8 April 2007
I don't believe classifying the film as "propaganda" classifies as WP:NPOV. As long as this kind of behavior continues the POV dispute tag is present for good reason. --Tjsynkral 21:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He's made this edit several times before.  Totally inappropriate especially for an admin. Iceage77 21:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I found those edits very inappropriate and complained about them a couple of weeks ago.  It is especially poor conduct from an admin, and I was disappointed that other admins care so little about that sort of behavior.  Nevertheless the fact that an editor makes poor edits from time to time does not damn all of his other edits, it does not make an article POV if the POV edits have been undone, and does it not mean that the blog he writes for does not meet WP:RS. -- THF 23:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal attack removed. Please discuss how to improve the article, not those editing the article. Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I didn't change the "controversial documentary" language.  Please don't make false accusations.  There was a falsely sourced statement in the lead paragraph, and once it was correctly sourced, it was barely notable; it arguably doesn't belong in the article at all, but it certainly doesn't belong in the lead section.  See WP:Lead section.  And no one objected to it or even tried to revert it -- I certainly would not have reverted if someone reverted me; I made a good-faith attempt to improve the article. -- THF 02:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict)  You went way beyond what was needed to correct the source of the quote and countermanded a painstakingly arrived at consensus which culminated in a straw poll All those in favour of "controversial documentary film", with the "polemic" quote somewhere in the lead, say Aye. Those opposed say Nay The proposed language was adopted -- you even voted for it. Then you came back and moved the quote so that it was no longer "somewhere in the lead", which was a specific part of the consensus. Why do we even bother, when people do things like this? Raymond Arritt 02:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: You were a party to the consensus discussion, so don't act like you don't know how disruptive you were. Simply read the consensus discussion to see your name prominently listed.  Your 'good faith attempt' to improve the article purposefully clashed with consensus.  --Skyemoor 02:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:BB WP:CCC WP:AGF and WP:CIV. --Tjsynkral 02:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, sorry for the confusion, it was an honest mistake.  I hadn't realized that someone else had removed "polemic" from the first sentence.  Can't you find a better source, though?  Who cares what a "source at Channel 4" says?  -- THF 02:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personal attacks removed. Please discuss how to improve the article, not those editing the article. Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The current source says a spokesman. I'm not sure what the previous source said, but I think spokesman is good enough for representation of the channel. But that's just my opinion. ~ UBeR 18:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm okay with the current cite (which I put in).  A spokesman is speaking for the channel at its authorization and is notable; an anonymous source is just a leak. -- THF 19:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV section break 4

message: 'The Great Global Warming Swindle' is a documentary developed by WagTv Productions*. The film explores the relationship between science, the media and the public. The film and their official website claims that mainstream media coverage of man made global warming is hyped up on TV, radio and in the press, and is largely uncritical. The film shows examples of futuristic global warming predictions aired on the BBC using scientifically absurd images. The film makers claim that one of the curious aspects of the global warming alarm is the persistent reluctance of some climate scientists to consider the role of the sun, claiming that the influence of solar activity on Earths climate through warm and cold periods has a long proven recorded history - long before human industrialisation. The film also claims that the ice-core data samples used in the documentary An Inconvenient Truth that is used as "the jewel in the crown" by man made warming theorists showing CO2 as driving the climate is actually the other way around. The film makers also question the IPCC consensus, the claim that the ‘the world’s top scientists’ all agree argument, that is used to bully scientists from openly disagreeing and stifle media critisism. The film questions why has a theory which lacks really solid supporting evidence become an undisputable fact? --THE END--
*((original channel, airdate and creator is now cited in infobox)). 
Critisism and analysis has a lengthy section, words like 'propaganda, one-sided, controversial, polemic and lop-sided' can be edited there. This is an encyclopedia, and should begin with expaining what the film makers present as their facts. Some of their claims are not all ready covered in the present article. Also, refer to their official website if you dispute what they claim.
The Carl Wunsch 'duped' affair also has it's own section, it doesn't have to be repeated everywhere. 
I'm not implying my suggestion be taken word for word, it can fixed to make it more readable (its just an idea). I am being neutral. Also, check their website if you dispute their claims.
Also, I believe the 'neutrality tag' should remain until reasonable requests and disputes (by both camps) are resolved. --Dean1970 22:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The current introduction complies with WP:Lead section, which does require summarization of prominent controversies.  I don't see your proposal as a substantive improvement, even if one were to correct the grammar and spelling.  Can you identify specific violations of NPOV that you believe merit a tag?  Also, please review ITS carefully. -- THF 23:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've already made a consensus that we should call the film a controversial documentary with the word "polemic" coming from a Channel 4 source within the lead. I recognize consensuses change, but controversial simply implies that it has been disputed or there is some sort of controversy or contention surrounding it. There is no problem with stating this fact. ~ UBeR 01:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fascinatingly enough, An Inconvenient Truth has also been called a polemic. -- THF 01:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Opening Paragraph Suggestion

message: I was reading this as I need information for my coursework which goes against the theory of global warming. This article seems to build on the sides of critiscim of the theories and doesn't give a fair showing of the programme. I know that they should be in the global warming controversies section, but this almost removes all credibility of the C4 programme.
Thanks St91 17:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you proposing we delete the criticism? That doesn't seem fair. I don't quite understand what you want. ~ UBeR 19:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This is Wikipedia... it's apparently a sin to write anything negative about Global Warming here. --Tjsynkral 19:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

text: St91, always take information from Wikipedia (more-so from controversial topics) with a very large grain of salt. There are many POV pushers here who have a full time job of sitting at home all day reflecting their bias into an encyclopedia (a traditionally trustworthy source) and guarding the articles like watchdogs. Very unfortunate. The machine512 21:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If you don't like the article as it stands, it's easy enough to fix. Quote endorsements of the film by major scientific bodies, leading scientists and so on. List the awards it has won or been nominated for, note favourable comment on previous work by the filmmaker, focusing particularly on his commitment to honest reporting, and the successful resolution of any previous complaints similar to those of Professor Wunsch. Need I go on?JQ 00:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article as it stands is a fair summary of reaction to the programme by respected sources. If you think that this 'removes all credibility of the C4 programme' you may have a point, but the fact is that almost no scientist (other than the ones interviewed in the programme) backs the programme's conclusions. Even the people interviewed in the programme don't necessarily back anything except the specific parts of the programme they were interviewed in; I'm not convinced how broadbased the support for the 'cosmic ray' theory would be among the interviewees, for example. Carl Wunsch actively disagrees with the film's conclusions even for the part of the programme he was interviewed for. Unfortunately I think it's fair to say that Durkin, whatever his undoubted talents as a film maker, is not a scientist, and he does not represent the arguments fairly. It's a very persuasively put together piece of television, but if you scratch the surface and have a look at the arguments used, they don't stand up at all well to scrutiny. The most obvious parts are the use of one old and very specifically chosen temperature graph, rather than a standard one, which would be better for several reasons, but in particular would include the very significant warming that's happened in the last twenty years; the claim that volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans (volcanic emissions are a hundredth of human emissions, according to multiple independent sources); use of Wunsch's interview to support the claim that rises in temperature cause CO2 rises rather than the other way round (when Wunsch actually believes that CO2 does cause temperature rises; he was trying to say that the feedback loop that happens when warmer oceans start emitting CO2 made the situation much more dangerous); and use of old atmospheric temperature data, when authoritative studies, published in the last couple of years, state that the old anomalies can be explained. Durkin also appears to have somewhat exaggerated the dangers of cooking fires, and he ignores the fact that developing countries are specifically excluded from the Kyoto Protocol. How much credibility this leaves the programme with... well, I'll leave that for you to decide. I think it's good that we're having the debate, but unfortunately I think the programme adds to confusion about global warming rather than understanding. --Merlinme 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Should the reaction have a page titled The Great Global Warming Swindle Reaction of scientists who agree with the scientific assessment of global warming or something?  Perhaps its not the wiki article on this documentry's place to refute it, but to provide the information about it and let others go to other wiki articles as they please like global warming or what have you.  I don't agree with Al Gore's little fantacy movie, but that doesn't mean I want it mucked up like this article has become.--Zeeboid 21:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "If you don't like the article as it stands, it's easy enough to fix. Quote endorsements of the film by major scientific bodies, leading scientists and so on. List the awards it has won or been nominated for, note favourable comment on previous work by the filmmaker, focusing particularly on his commitment to honest reporting, and the successful resolution of any previous complaints similar to those of Professor Wunsch. Need I go on?" (with apologies for borrowing ;-) --Stephan Schulz 21:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Who cares about the size and resources of the maker? The movie is crap. It's not crap because it's cheap, it's crap because it massively misrepresents our state of knowledge. And that's not just the opinion of Monbiot and Milbrand, but of any number of other observers, including e.g. the Royal Society and Carl Wunsch. What this article does is documenting, not inventing, these opinions.--Stephan Schulz 23:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, I don't know if they ever produce quality documentaries. This one isn't. And I won't call unloading crap onto the public airwaves environmentally friendly. --Stephan Schulz 23:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not really supposed to be discussing the subject of the article here- we're supposed to be discussing how to improve the article- but I guess I started it to some extent. Anyway, Dean1970, I'm not an enormous fan of Monbiot, and I do believe in having a sensible debate about global warming. However my main problem with TGGWS is that it is so far from reality that it doesn't really contribute to the debate at all. I believe in science; I also believe in assessing scientists' motivations rather than believing them unquestioningly. But almost no scientists agree with Durkin. No-one denies that the Sun affects the weather; but it's also true that almost no-one denies that raised CO2 levels should increase temperature, and very few disagree that raised CO2 levels  are changing our climate; TGGWS just muddies the waters on this. Debate about what to do is good; wilfully confusing the science is not.--Merlinme 00:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: What ought to be clear by now is that any article that presents evidence based on verifiable citations from reputable sources will lead readers to the conclusion that TGGWS is itself a swindle, made by someone with a long track record of dishonest behavior. Editors who regard TGGWS as being "on their side" can fight as hard as they like to exclude or downplay references to the scientific facts denied in the film, statements by scientists and scientific bodies pointing out that it's a pack of lies and so on. It won't do any good. As St91 said right at the top, an article produced in line with the rules of Wikipedia inevitably removes all credibility of the C4 programme. In doing so, it fulfils the function of an encyclopedia. JQ 08:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't mean for all of this to come about, but never mind! Thanks everyone, I read all the points but still think what I said at the top. Thanks again St91 18:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Great Global Warming Swindle - is this a bias write-up?

message: (I've added this back in from the archive, because it's useful to have. The link is still valid.)
:There's a sort of transcript here: . It's been created by someone while watching the programme, and created specifically for the purposes of building a rebuttal, so I wouldn't trust its reliability 100%. However it's the best I can find (please let me know if you can find a better one). It's not a Reliable Source for linking against, however if you remember something from the programme and want to find out exactly who said what and when, I would have thought it would be reasonable to have a look at the transcript. Someone can always correct you if you it turns out to be inaccurate. Personally I used it to look up exactly who made the "death threats" quote. --Merlinme 16:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its accurate enough (at least it's been correct everytime i've checked) - but both for WP:RS and WP:NPOV it can't go onto the page - but its a good resource. --Kim D. Petersen 21:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcript 

message: Hi - I'm new at this, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm putting this comment in the wrong place. There is no "theory" about CO2 as a greenhouse gas (GHG). TGGWS acknowledges that CO2 is a GHG. I tried to update this paragraph in an edit, but it was reverted. Thus I would like to call to everyone's attention that the page would be improved with a paragraph that goes something like this: "Theories of global temperature increase due to an enhanced warming from greenhouse gas predict that the temperature higher in the troposphere should increase at the same rate as it has near the surface, but satellite and weather balloon data as of 2001[7] did not show this." I am open to suggestions for whether or not the "data as of 2001" information should be included, since this was stated in the Third Assessment Report. --VS 78 03:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paragraph on "theories" of CO2 as a greenhouse gas  

message: Schulz Stephan, what criterion are you applying?  None of the notes have anything specific to do with the movie.  They are ALL elaborations on the science. In this case the model science.  --Africangenesis 21:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're on to something here.  The models aren't perfect!  What an astonishing discovery! Raymond Arritt 21:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The others are at least elaborations of Houghton's position, while your's is obviously not (it attaches to his reproduction of one of the movies claims). And I'm not certain that any of them should be in. This is an article about the movie, and it should concentrate on the movie. That includes the reaction to it, but not an original analysis of the science. And I prefer to be called either Stephan, or Dr. Schulz. Addressing people by their family name only is uncivil. --Stephan Schulz 21:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. ~ UBeR 22:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I am sorry about the Schulz, Stephan.  Only note "b" is an elaboration of Houghton's position since it is by Houghton, the rest seem to be somebodies idea of what would back Houghton up.  I did not know the notes had to be only uncritical support for his position.  I would be interested if anyone can come up with backup for Houghton on point d, that goes beyond his rather off point response, and actually addresses whether the models are accurate enough for attribution and projection.--Africangenesis 21:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Stephen - this is an article about the movie, and not about the entire global warming controversy. And there seems to be an intolerant, sarcastic, unscientific attitude of those here that disagree with the position of the film. There needs to be a clear delineation here. This article is about a movie, and to include points and counter-points and editorials and scribbling by people with an invested interest in the position opposite to the film, then it's way too big. Quoting an article that is an original source, fine. Quoting an article that quoted another article is hardly authoritative. And if you have to be reduced to quoting the science editor of a daily newspaper (a positon that only requires a high school diploma), then you're really desperate. --Corwin8 02:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I've cleaned up some parts and removed redundant material (how many different ways can we discuss that mislabbeled graph?). I've also removed some stuff that seemed to argue about the issue in general instead of being DIRECTLY RELATED to the film. I've also removed stuff that did not have a direct reference. I'm assuming that someone's going to want to discuss these??? --Corwin8 03:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, yeah, I expect so...  "Delete first, discuss later" is not usually a helpful approach, and can be seen as gratuitously provocative. A self-revert pending further discussion could be seen as a gesture of good faith. Raymond Arritt 03:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Corwin, I removed (or rather cut) sections that discussed the science, and had no direct relevance to the movie. You deleted descriptions to explicit reactions to the movie. The first don't belong here, the second should be a major part of the article. --Stephan Schulz 21:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What criterion is this "Roesch has nothing to do with the movie." 

message: I cut this (and the associate references):
===Notes===
α.  For more on troposphere temperature measurements, see the 2006 U.S. Climate Change Science Program report "Temperature Trends in the Lower Atmosphere:Steps for Understanding and Reconciling Differences". The Executive Summary says, "Specifically, surface data showed substantial global-average warming, while early versions of satellite and radiosonde data showed little or no warming above the surface. This significant discrepancy no longer exists because errors in the satellite and radiosonde data have been identified and corrected." 
b.  For more on the radiative effects of clouds, see any edition of John Houghton's book, The Physics of Atmospheres. In the chapter on clouds, the textbook says, "In section 6.3... it was mentioned that clouds interfere with the transfer of radiation in the atmosphere in two ways. Firstly, they reflect a certain proportion of solar radiation back to space, so reducing the total energy available to the system. Secondly, they act as blankets to thermal radiation from the earth's surface in a similar way to greenhouse gases. By absorbing thermal radiation emitted by the earth's surface below, and by themselves emitting thermal radiation, they act to reduce the heat loss to space from the surface." Houghton, J., The Physics of Atmospheres, p. 88. Cambridge University Press, 2001.
c.  For more on human contributions to atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations, see Global Biogeochemical Cycles. At the end of chapter 11 on the global carbon cycle, Holmen summarizes the global carbon cycle in Fig. 11-24 as described in the text. Vulcanism is stated to contribute 0.1 PgC/year to the atmosphere, while fossil fuel burning and deforestation contribute 6-7 PgC/year. Though plants and animals respire 60 PgC/year, and litterfall releases an additional 60 PgC/year, the biosphere also assimilates 120 PgC/year. The ocean releases 80 PgC/year to the atmosphere, but it also uptakes 80 PgC/year.Holmen, K., "The Global Carbon Cycle," in Global Biogeochemical Cycles, Eds. Butcher and Wolfe, Fig. 11-24 on p. 259. Academic Press Limited, 1992. A similar figure can be found online at NASA's Earth Observatory website, where carbon fluxes are expressed in Gt. Note that 1 Pg is approximately equal to 1 Gt. The most up-to-date infromation from NASA indicates that the air-sea carbon flux exchange is currently more on the order of 90 GtC/year (90 GtC/year released by the ocean to the atmosphere, and 92 GtC/year absorbed by the ocean from the atmosphere).
This is neither from the movie, nor, apparently, used by anybody notable in the discussion of the movie. Adding them in here amounts to original research. Reporting on the existing discussion is fine, but adding to it directly is not. --Stephan Schulz 21:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with Africangenesis and Dr. Schulz. ~ UBeR 22:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Took out notes section 

message: α.  For more on troposphere temperature measurements, see the 2006 U.S. Climate Change Science Program report "Temperature Trends in the Lower Atmosphere:Steps for Understanding and Reconciling Differences". The Executive Summary says, "Specifically, surface data showed substantial global-average warming, while early versions of satellite and radiosonde data showed little or no warming above the surface. This significant discrepancy no longer exists because errors in the satellite and radiosonde data have been identified and corrected." 
b.  For more on the radiative effects of clouds, see any edition of John Houghton's book, The Physics of Atmospheres. In the chapter on clouds, the textbook says, "In section 6.3... it was mentioned that clouds interfere with the transfer of radiation in the atmosphere in two ways. Firstly, they reflect a certain proportion of solar radiation back to space, so reducing the total energy available to the system. Secondly, they act as blankets to thermal radiation from the earth's surface in a similar way to greenhouse gases. By absorbing thermal radiation emitted by the earth's surface below, and by themselves emitting thermal radiation, they act to reduce the heat loss to space from the surface." Houghton, J., The Physics of Atmospheres, p. 88. Cambridge University Press, 2001.
c.  For more on human contributions to atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations, see Global Biogeochemical Cycles. At the end of chapter 11 on the global carbon cycle, Holmen summarizes the global carbon cycle in Fig. 11-24 as described in the text. Vulcanism is stated to contribute 0.1 PgC/year to the atmosphere, while fossil fuel burning and deforestation contribute 6-7 PgC/year. Though plants and animals respire 60 PgC/year, and litterfall releases an additional 60 PgC/year, the biosphere also assimilates 120 PgC/year. The ocean releases 80 PgC/year to the atmosphere, but it also uptakes 80 PgC/year.Holmen, K., "The Global Carbon Cycle," in Global Biogeochemical Cycles, Eds. Butcher and Wolfe, Fig. 11-24 on p. 259. Academic Press Limited, 1992. A similar figure can be found online at NASA's Earth Observatory website, where carbon fluxes are expressed in Gt. Note that 1 Pg is approximately equal to 1 Gt. The most up-to-date infromation from NASA indicates that the air-sea carbon flux exchange is currently more on the order of 90 GtC/year (90 GtC/year released by the ocean to the atmosphere, and 92 GtC/year absorbed by the ocean from the atmosphere).
</blockquote>
This is neither from the movie, nor, apparently, used by anybody notable in the discussion of the movie. Adding them in here amounts to original research. Reporting on the existing discussion is fine, but adding to it directly is not. --Stephan Schulz 21:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with Africangenesis and Dr. Schulz. ~ UBeR 22:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Notes

message: What in this article is POV?  It has an accurate summary of the movie's content, and plenty of info about criticism of it and related controversies (Wusch, etc.).  Do we still think that the POV and cleanup tags are necessary?  If so, which part(s) need to be cleaned up or neutrualized? Oren0 21:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality and cleanup tags

message: Do we feel that all the cussing is necessary in the section about Durkin's emails?  Does including it really help anything?  Maybe replace with ****, [expletive deleted], or rewrite so that he doesn't need to be quoted?  It just seems like the language doesn't help the article at all. Oren0 15:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Wikipedia is not censored Raul654 15:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It does seem that the language doesn't help Durkin at all; but it does give useful info so why remove it? William M. Connolley 16:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Profanity necessary? 

message: Would anybody object if I removed the Real Climate paragraph from the "Reactions from scientists" section? I've stood up to having it included up to this date, because I thought it had information that was not available in another source elsewhere. However, now that the programme has been quite so comprehensively dismantled by other scientists, I think it could be reasonably taken out. There's a lot of information now in the "Reactions from scientists" section, and I'm not sure how much the RealClimate paragraph adds any more (in addition to being controversial for being a blog, and co-written by WMC).
--Merlinme 11:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I shall comment rather than "voting", for obvious reasons. Firstly I object on principal, since RC is a RS there is no reason to take it out. Secondly I don't see the altered-graphs bit elsewhere William M. Connolley 11:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As regards which sources are admissible, I note that there was pretty strong insistence on keeping a link to John Lawrence Daly in the Global warming controversy article, even though the late Mr Daly had no relevant qualifications other than the fact that, through his blog, he was a prominent participant in the debate. So, I think it's appropriate to keep RC.JQ 12:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Merlinme. "If the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." The question here isn't whether it's a reliable source, we've been over that. Being reliable is only a secondary requirement for being included. We don't include everything because it comes from a reliable source, that should be known by now. ~ UBeR 17:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that RealClimate should be removed.  It's a blog and it creates the perception of a conflict of interest that some RealClimate contributors are also some of the most active WP editors on the subject of global warming.  It's better to wait until a non-blog source reports something, and post that.  We also know that RealClimate is a source with an agenda and it's better, when possible, to use neutral sources. Oren0 18:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Real Climate blog 

message: There is a graph halfway down the page which compares EPICA and VOSTOK ice core samples relating carbon dioxide and mean global temperature for the last 750,000 years. This image keeps getting swapped back and forth between two different graphs. I originally added the graph to the article, and have twice reinstated it in its original PNG form. It is a single continuous graph that I find easier to interpret. The description of this image states that there is an svg (vector) image that should be used in its place. The reason I do not feel this appropriate is because the vector image is not the same graph as the rastor image. The two graphs draws data from the same sources, but do not examine data along the same timeline. Since this is quickly degrading into an edit war, I thought I would pose the question of which image to keep. I'll go with whatever you guys decide, I just thought we should settle this now. If we do go with the svg version, though, it would be appropriate to update the caption to match the timeline in the new image as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 (talk) 20:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As the creator of both graphs I have to say the SVG version is preferable, for many reasons. The first is that the SVG versions involves some corrections in timescale issues present in the original, and removes an unnecessary normalization procedure allowing for original units. Then there's the SVG improvement over a raster image. I consider the PNG graph deprecated, not just for format reasons, but for technical reasons regarding the actual data presented. Please stop reverting to it. -- Leland McInnes 20:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Also note that the graphs present the same timescale of comparison -- the PNG is over a longer time range, but lacks CO2 for that extra range. -- Leland McInnes 20:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's cool, man. As I mentioned, I don't intend to push this matter any further. I just wanted to understand the change. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 (talk) 20:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: By the way, good work on the graphs and thanks for updating the caption. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 (talk) 20:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CO2 vs Temp graph 

message: This is embarrassing obsfuscation by the British Antartic Survey 
*"A comparison of the distorted and undistorted contemporary data reveal that the plot of solar activity bears no resemblance to the temperature curve, especially in the last 20 years. The recent IPCC report indicates that changes in solar irradiance since 1750 account for only ~5% of the increase in radiative forcing of the Earth’s climate compared with the effects of greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide)."
Once again the public's ignorance of climate commitment is being exploited by a citing a resemblence of curves.  Earlier increases in solar forcing are enough assure a significant solar contribution to the recent warming, although GHGs may still be dominant.  The comparison of levels of forcing is further obsfuscation, since in a non-linear system the forcings cannot be simply compared or summed, as they are coupled to the climate in quite different ways.  Furthermore, even if one was to compare them for their values  at the surface, the CO2 should have been reduced by the lapse rate feedback to a fraction of the value being used.--Africangenesis 15:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may or may not be right, but thats beside the point: the prog asserted that solar causes warming based on a simple correlation between the plots, with no talk of lags. That argument is wrong, as BAS points out (disclaimer, I work for them, but I didn't write any of it) William M. Connolley 16:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obsfuscation by the BAS 

message: My Google check gives 45 Google hits for "Davis Guggenheim's film" vs 70900 hits for "Al Gore's film". I think commonsense ought to prevail here. But I suppose if commonsense prevailed, TGGWS would never have been made. JQ 07:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Infinitus est numerus stultorum. "From director Davis Guggenheim comes the Sundance Film Festival hit, AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH, which offers a passionate and inspirational look at one man . . ." "Paramount Classics and Participant Productions present a film directed by Davis Guggenheim, AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH. Featuring Al Gore, the film is produced by Laurie David, Lawrence Bender and Scott Z. Burns." Magister dixit. ~ UBeR 16:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Gore is the author of the content - it becomes a question of using common sense here. If the movie is per the same reasoning/rationale as WP:COMMONNAME referred to as Gore's then (imho) its the "correct" way to refer to it. --Kim D. Petersen 20:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm afraid WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply here. Quite simply, the movie is directed by Guggenheim and features Gore. What's difficult here? ~ UBeR 20:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that commonname doesn't apply here - read what i wrote again please. Its directed by Guggenheim... yes - content written by Gore - featuring Gore. Are you saying that the content was written by someone else? As a sidequestion: How many M. Crichton movies are there?  --Kim D. Petersen 21:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know... six? Riddle me this, how many Sam Neill films are there? ~ UBeR 21:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: By your requirements, and discounting shorts, exactly 1 , though that was a TV movie, so perhaps that doesn't count either. Can we just say zero? -- Leland McInnes 22:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, that's pretty good! ~ UBeR 22:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Davis Guggenheim's film ? 

message: The article currently states "The channel subsequently announced that it would be hosting a debate about the global warming issue to be broadcast in April." Did this happen?JQ 20:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I'm aware, no. I can't find a reference to it on the Channel 4 TGGWS site, or the Wag TV TGGWS site, or with a google search. It may be that it's later than originally planned. It may also be that Channel 4 got cold feet when they saw the reaction the programme got. It's a bit hard to say at this stage. If that's still no sign of the debate in June, we could probably think about taking that statement out. --Merlinme 09:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I guess the failure to hold an announced debate might be relevant, since, as you say, it suggests that C4 is backing away from the programme. But we should wait and see. Would it be OR to contact C4 directly and ask about this? JQ 09:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Followup debate

message: I can't remember if if was here that the issue came up, but there's a great automatic template filling tool here. Just paste in the URL/ISBN and it generates the cite.JQ 21:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template filling

message: Much as I am flattered that you have put a link to my complaint to Ofcom I think that it is hardly appropriate that you have put a link to this in the "external links" section and no other critiques of the programme written by people far better qualified than me, of which there are many on the web. For example RealClimate, John Houghton, Bob Ward, and many others. Furthermore my amateur letter is the only link in the external links section not supportive of the contentions of the programme! This surely violates Wikipedia's neutrality policy, besides the fact that putting a single link to an amateur critique over many written by experts in the subject seems to violate good quality standards.  
Yours, Josie Wexler (apologies if I have made mistakes in Wikipedia protocol I have never posted on here before but this concerned me personally.) JWex 02:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you read the article, ma'am? ~ UBeR 05:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think MS Wexler's main point is that her letter is included as an external link, whereas other criticisms  (and supporting statements) are linked in the notes section. The external links section, looked at in isolation, certainly appears unbalanced. JQ 05:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The more formal looking notes, are for references that are discussed in the text of the article.  I don't think your note is discussed in the text, someone may have just supplied the link because they thought it might be of interest to readers of this article.  Hopefully balance is achieved on the article as a whole, and not in each and every section.--Africangenesis 11:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, it might be good to footnote the letter, maybe where we mention complaints to Ofcom. I'll look at doing thisJQ 03:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done this now, and done the same with a link to the Ball story as well as deleting to links unrelated to TGGWSJQ 03:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: "A couple of links with no reference to the program keep getting reinserted." For example, the IPCC page? ~ UBeR 17:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's not like the IPCC was one of the program's main topics or anything. Oh, wait... Raymond Arritt 18:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's not like shunning the idea of global warming catastrophism was the program's main topics or anything. Oh, wait... ~ UBeR 18:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: What does this have to do with the show: Dangers of crying "wolf" on climate change or this: Global Warming False Alarms by Russell Lewis ? --Kim D. Petersen 18:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If it's not relevant then zap it.  Before doing so, consider whether the film mentioned the joint academies' statement, or conversely, whether it argued that there was no support for AGW from authoritative scientific bodies (I suspect the former is very unlikely, while the latter may well be possible). Raymond Arritt 19:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've fixed that. ~ UBeR 19:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I removed the vanity part of this edit.--Africangenesis 18:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed this bit, per our conflict of interest policy, which states, "Conflicts may include editing for the sake of promoting oneself" or cause. If after discussion it's found to be worthy of inclusion, a non-interested party (i.e. not Dr. Quiggin) can add it. ~ UBeR 01:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think a two-sentence quote in a Wikipedia article is going to make a big difference to my career, UBeR. The relevant guideline states "You may cite your own publications just as you'd cite anyone else's, but make sure your material is relevant and that you're regarded as a reliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia. Be careful about excessive citation of your own work, to avoid the appearance of self-promotion". Again in the context of hundreds of contributions to Wikipedia, I don't think a couple of sentences comes remotely near "excessive self-citation".JQ 06:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think what your career is or is not bears any relevance here. Well, perhaps it does, because it raises the question of whether your opinion here is noteworthy. At any rate, your piece doesn't seem to shed any particular or helpful insight on the issue or opinions expressed by other Australians. ~ UBeR 06:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "I don't think what your career is or is not bears any relevance here." I take it you're withdrawing any suggestion of conflict of interest, then.  JQ 07:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can promote yourself without promoting your career. ~ UBeR 07:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm, please spell this out. Exactly how would two sentences in Wikipedia promote me, and to whom. Or are you saying, directly contrary to policy, that You should not cite your own publications . JQ 07:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: So now it's just a content dispute. Fine, but please stop with the abusive vanity stuff in your edit summaries. JQ 19:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Time and time again in the GW debate, refs that I and others have inserted have been removed because "op-eds can say whatever they want and are not reliable sources."  Sorry, but those rules apply to you as well.  Oren0 16:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? There are a dozen or so op-eds cited here. Of course, they are not reliable sources for scientific information, they indicate a range of opinions published in leading newspapers.JQ 19:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't see a need to cover favorable and critical responses from every country that don't add something substantively new, such as an important scientist or public figure weighing in. The "favorable" australian citation does not appear to be particularly notable either, unless that is the official editorial position of an important paper, as opposed to a signed column by a non-expert.  I notice that your response appears to mock the paper. --Africangenesis 10:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So, you're now claiming that Australian reactions don't count? This is an interesting interpretation of "vanity", and of course yet another policy violation. JQ 10:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just that Austrailian reactions are not notable just because they are "Austrialian".  I've just read the COI page, and I see that labeling your edits "vanity" is discouraged, so I will now refrain from that and I apologize.  But I also found that COI includes competitors to one's organizations.  I note that you are a journalist for The Austrailian Finanacial Review, and that you saw fit to include a mocking pot shot in your edit against a competing newspaper.  That gives the appearance of conflict of interest.  Please remove you COI edit.--Africangenesis 11:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is even less defensible than your last claim. You clearly have little knowledge of the state of the media, or of public debate, in Australia. But if you want to go for moderation over it, feel free. In the meantime, having admitted that your multiple previous reverts were based on a misreading of the rules, I suggest you take no further action until your claim can be assessed.JQ 11:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You overstate it completely.  My prior reasons all stand, it just ain't nice to call it "vanity", I should have called it "conflict of interest" instead.  By the way, why not just remove the reference to your competitor in the quote?  And what is the bizzare idea that the Austrailian embraced?  I've read teh article, and don't see it.  Does you article explain it?--Africangenesis 11:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The "bizzare" ideas referred to in your quote, via'a'vis the austrialian article, do not appear related to their claims for Swindle.  I searched "Counterpoint" for swindle and there were no hits.  Your quote seems to be more about other positions taken by the Austrailian and by Duffy, than about swindle.  Perhaps we should reduce your component of that section to: " John Quiggin criticised the program for putting forward "conspiracy theories"", to keep it relevant to this article.  And that would eliminate all conflicts of interest in relation to this article, except your involvement in the judgement as to whether your article on this was notable.--Africangenesis 12:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: removed vanity edit.

message: I don't really like this section, mainly because I don't see how it can fail to lead to duplication. For example, Durkin's response to Friis-Christensen should go here, but it also seems appropriate immediately following the Friis-Christensen's comments further up. I guess I can see why the section was added, but I would prefer it if Durkin's response to individual criticisms were dealt with immediately after the criticism, and I don't really see why the Mick Hume quote is in at all.
--Merlinme 17:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually a better place for the Mick Hume quote would be under the "Reaction to possible DVD release" section. --Merlinme 17:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Responses to scientists 

message: I notice that a programme related to TGGWS has disappeared from this article, and another one is currently being reviewed for its notability...or its worthiness on Wiki. I'm referring to Doomsday Called Off, a documentary produced and broadcast by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. There is currently a full version available on google video (that hasn't been borked yet)  this file was uploaded April 21st, 2007, and so far has received over 73,000 views (which isn't too shabby for a suppossed CBC relic consigned to the dustbin for its un-notabilty). The documentary explored the hockey stick graph, reviewed climate change scientist (Michael Mann)...and was generally in a similar vein to TGGWS, so, a great place to link it then...especially on Wikipedia, would be the "related programmes" section on this article, aye, nay? I mean, its getting a tad elitist, does a docu have to be produced by Michael Moore, or have Guardian columnists wetting themselves because a docu like TGGWS offends their lightbulb changing fetishes, or does a docu have to win an Oscar to get a mention on Wikipedia? Its pretty sad it was deleted, or voted off, so much POV bullying and pushing, don't agree with it, going to delete it and cite Wiki rules like notabilty to hide the fact that it is simply being axed because you disagree with it. --Dean1970 13:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Godwin in one (see your edit summary). Raymond Arritt 13:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Godwins law, deary me, that works both ways....kinda should apply to those that have the word "denial' etched into their vocab to demean and intimidate those that disagree with them...they lose straight away too do they?! Thanks for avoiding the point issue I raise though. --Dean1970 14:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to be taken seriously then you have to act seriously, instead of ranting about nazi book burning and "lightbulb changing fetishes." Tell us what critical and scientific reaction there was to the show, give links to sources saying who was in it and who sponsored it, and so on. I Googled the title and the first 100 hits were almost all blog comments, with little useful information aside from the fact that it was produced by a Danish company. Raymond Arritt 14:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed this link once, because neither the programme nor the people in the programme are mentioned in TGGWS. What's the relevance? We can't have a link to every programme that has ever mentioned the global warming debate, there would be hundreds if not thousands. --Merlinme 14:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, that's not really how Wikipedia works, is it? I'm scarcely the only person whose opinion matters on this article. If you think a synopsis would add something, then please go ahead. Bearing in mind the controversial nature of TGGWS article though, it might be sensible to explain to people exactly what you're going to do and get a reasonable level of consensus that the addition would be sensible, or it may be reverted very quickly. Why don't you start a new "Synopsis" heading on this discussion page and see whether people think it would be worthwhile? (On a separate issue, I'm a little dubious whether the DVD version eliminating the 'minor errors' will make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but that's fairly irrelevant with regard to the question of whether to have a synopsis.) --Merlinme 16:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I see now -- apparently Doomsday Called Off had an article and it was deleted. I didn't know that.  But I can see where it would have been an uphill fight in terms of notability. Re your final comment, be aware that many of us on the scientific side of the problem cringe at much of the "we're all gonna die" stuff. Raymond Arritt 03:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But James Hansen says it's OK to scream lies, so just follow the scientific method of lying.  (SEWilco 03:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please help Wikipedia to Expand

message: Does anyone else think the blocked-out quotes under the "Viewpoints expressed..." section look strange?  I don't see the need for this format, given that they're brief quotes and not extensive blocks. Raymond Arritt 16:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quote format

message: I'm agnostic either way about whether the article should state the Australian screening date, but it is likely to become a source of contraversy when it is screened (OR I know...) - but there have already been attacks on the ABC for its decision (The Age 2-3rd June). It is also very unusual for an institution not normally in the business of screening polemical documentaries with this level of scientific innacuracy. Mostlyharmless 05:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh I don't know. They ring-fenced it with enough politically-correct blather that there was no danger that anybody would assume that the ABC agreed with it. The sheep made all the usual sheep-like noises. Greglocock 04:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not to mention the noises made by Durkin's barking mad supporters, going from Durkin's Margaret Thatcher theory to the claim that it's all Prince Philip's fault. ROTFLMAO! JQ 08:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Screening date

message: William, I made a good faith edit, chill out brother. I just added to his quote...whats the frikkin big deal!! Do you see me trimming down criticism?? Is Durkins quotes on some kind of wikiration i don't know about. People need to cool down with the paranoia it getting absurd, it good to be pushy for excellence to help article I agree but show good faith even if we disagree on stuff!!!!!!! --Dean1970 12:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't care for your familiarity. You made an edit; I disagreed with it. Please show some good faith yourself. There is no need for excess Durkin quoting William M. Connolley 12:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Your question is a very strange one, taken literally it indicates a gross lack of understanding. So I'm unsure how to take it. To give the obvious answer: there are no hard limits. It is a question of balance. Simply because its a Durkin quote doesn't mean it belongs: how much to quote is a matter of judgement. But all that is obvious William M. Connolley 13:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Its yet more stupidity from Durkin - Katrina is a nuanced matter, see the RC article http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/09/hurricanes-and-global-warming/. It doesn't belong in this section; its unreasonable to give Durkin a longer quote that the one he is responding too. There is quite enough Durkin in this article already William M. Connolley 14:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Durkin's comparison may or may not be reasonable, but the problem with the quote is that the relevance to TGGWS article is unclear to me. Katrina does not seem to be mentioned anywhere in the transcript. Durkin makes the comparison for rhetorical effect, and in an already long article, I'm not convinced this adds anything to our understanding of TGGWS. Plenty of other quotes, by other people, have been edited down; there's no Durkin specific 'rationing' going on. --Merlinme 15:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the crux of the issue. This article is about the TV show TGGWS; it isn't "everything Durkin ever said in relation to global warming." Raymond Arritt 15:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes!!

message: Should the header "Claims made by the film" be replaced with "Points made by the film"? Claims implies that something should not be taken too seriously to begin with, but it seems to me that criticisms of the film and filmmakers are adequately documented throughout the article (even beginning in the opening sentence). IMO, the term 'points' would be more neutral.
: Claims makes it clear that they are unproven; "points" would imply more solidity than they deserve William M. Connolley 20:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See: Scientific opinion on climate change --Kim D. Petersen 09:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Claims" vs. "Points" 

message: When comparing the section titles and wording to say..."An Inconvenient Truth" it's very apparant that this contribution is extremely biased.
I think it needs to be changed completely.
: You mean its too favourable to TGGWS? William M. Connolley 17:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the very negative tone of the article, I think he means the opposite. Still, you need to be more specific. S0CO(talk|Contribs)</font> 15:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with William - if anything, this article is far too generous. Raul654 15:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not deny that the documentary has serious problems, but still, over half of the article is devoted to criticism of the documentary and its producers. In what way is it being too generous? S0CO(talk|Contribs) 15:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed before on this very page. I stand by my above comments. A full quarter of the article is an uncriticial recitation of the contents of the movie. Raul654 15:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is what the idea of an encyclopaedia is all about. Our job as editors is to present the facts about a subject before analysis. Being as this article is primarily about the documentary itself, and not just the criticism of it (legitimate though it may be), a straightforward outline telling the contents of the documentary without bias is a valid addition to the article. The crit section later on does an excellent job of pointing out problems with the documentary, so I see no good reason to provide counterpoints throughout the summary of the film's contents. ~ S0CO(talk|contribs) 16:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  As far as I can see, the only problems mentioned in the recitation refer to claims that Durkin himself has withdrawn. If the article did not mention Durkin's withdrawal on points where his error is proved beyond doubt, that would be even worse for him.JQ 08:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text:  "The facts about a subject" means stating it's wrong when it's wrong. It doesn't mean serving as yet another platform for deliberate disinformation. --84.46.0.37 08:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Spot-on, 84.46.0.37! This article does a great job of stating where Durkin is wrong (nearly everywhere), while acknowledging the handful of valid points in the film. Thus, unlike, say Channel 4, Wikipedia is not a platform for disinformation.JQ 09:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see what was so difficult to understand about what I was saying. What is wrong with telling what the contents of the documentary are before saying what is wrong with it? There's really no need to be so eager; there's plenty of critical material to go around. ~ S0CO(talk|contribs) 17:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no need for an encyclopedia to become a mouthpiece for propaganda.  Neutrality will always include critical analysis. --Skyemoor 01:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't think anyone disagrees with this. My critical/ironical comments were directed at the unsigned comment that opened the thread  JQ 23:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DEFINITELY a biased contribution! 

message: Making reference to a citation of "conspiracy" is fine of course, but isn't it biased to insert remarks based on personal opinion? As with:
*State of Fear Novel by Michael Crichton that describes a fictional conspiracy similar to that alleged by Durkin
The machine512 10:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't recall durkin alledging a conspiracy in the strict sense, but rather making mention of partisanship, which is quite different. I think blatantly calling his points in the film a conspiracy is somewhat twisted. The machine512 10:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, the title is self-explanatory and the program begins with the claim that global warming is a "lie". The advance publicity says "the greatest scam of modern times". The conspiracy theory, in which Margaret Thatcher paid scientists to lie, so as to promote nuclear power, is quite clearly presented. Numerous commentators have noted the fact that the film presents a conspiracy theory, and no one (at least no one who could be regarded as a reliable source) has denied or rebutted these comments. JQ 11:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Unless some third party has explicitly made a link between these two fictional works (TGGWS and SOF), linking them here would be WP:OR. If a commentator has linked them then we could mention it. [quick google...] Ah, have a look at this. Raymond Arritt 14:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'd forgotten it, but Google also turns up this . However the Guardian link is better. This leaves us with a couple of alternatives:(a) Mention Crichton's book as presenting a fictionalised conspiracy theory similar (in broad terms) to Durkin's;(b) Don't mention it at all. I'm happy either way.JQ 00:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. The article is already waaaaaaaay too long, so I'd lean toward not mentioning. Raymond Arritt 00:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Being as Crichton's book is admittedly a work of fiction, it does not seem to belong on a page which discusses a real-world topic. If we were to include State of Fear on this page, then by the same logic we could include a link to the film Capricorn One on the article about Apollo 11. Now, TGGWS has problems. I do not deny that. So, arguably, does An Inconvenient Truth, or any other documentary on a controversial subject, even if not to the same extent. But despite its flaws, TGGWS is set in a real-world context. State of Fear is not. Unless we want to redefine the boundaries of what is relevant to an article and what is not, it would be best to exclude the inlink to State of Fear entirely. ~ S0CO(talk|contribs) 00:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We seem to have consensus, so I've deleted it.JQ 02:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy POV Insertions 

message: In case somebody would like to add this to the article: Chris Merchant from the University of Edinburgh has produced a nice rebuttal entitled "Scam of the 'Great Global Warming Swindle'". Google Video Bittorrent 115 MB. AxelBoldt 17:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rebuttal by Chris Merchant 

message: Should there be a link to the actual program on Google Video? Revolutionaryluddite 18:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not allowed for copyright reasons. Iceage77 18:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay Revolutionaryluddite 18:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding External Links 

message: The film "Claims that all sceptics are funded by private industry (such as oil, gas, and coal industries) are false and have no basis in fact." While nearly all scientists who disagree with most or part of the popular media views on climate change are doing so out of their good-faith-based research of the scientific record, there also has been a well-documented misinfromation campaign by Exxon. The 'criticism section' doesn't mention this. Revolutionaryluddite 21:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claim in the film without criticism 

message: Durkin said "Thanks to China and the rest, SO2 levels are far, far higher now than they were back then. Why isn't it perishing cold?"
Is there any record of sulfur dioxide levels over history? I looked in the sulfur dioxide article but only see US emissions for last few decades and note that Chinese emissions are only now approaching that of the US in the eighties. Is Durkin actually talking about sulfate? Because the climate change attribution graph shows sulfate levels declining since 1900 so he would clearly be wrong there. And the attributions page quotes "In the second half of the century we find that the warming is largely caused by changes in greenhouse gases, with changes in sulphates and, perhaps, volcanic aerosol offsetting approximately one third of the warming." which suggests that sulfate levels have increased (so the cooling effect increased), but the much greater rises due to CO2 have overridden the effect.
I guess what I'm asking, is whether Durkin was wrong about global SO2 levels being highest now relative to the past? Obviously he doesn't understand (or want to say) that the increase in coolant could be negated by the increase in greenhouse gas. His claim here doesn't seem to be dealt with in the article.
172.188.190.67 09:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out . According to Stern, global sulfur emissions peaked in 1989 and were dropping since then, at least until 2000 when his data ends. Nils Simon 11:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  They look fairly linear up since 1900 at :Image:Climate Change Attribution.png. But Durkin is being deliberately stupid: the point is the balance between sulphate and CO2, not the absolute values William M. Connolley 09:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SO2 levels 

message: I changed "scientific opinion" to allegation removing a link to another page which suppresses the petition Project. This was reverted by a claimed engineering student asserting it "unacceptable" and claiming the 18,000 signature petition is "debunked." I then received intimidating messages in my own page, not here, claiming I'd hurt their feelings, violated policies and so forth. Everything I wrote here was deleted and, having seen these tactics before, can stay that way because I am gainfully employed elsewhere. The video remains unsuppressed, and anyone who cares to see scientists begging leave to doubt the politicians can google Petition Project. translator 02:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that Interpreter is making a valid point. There seems to be a big effort at Wikipedia to malign the dissenters against the man-made climate change theory. However, I don't think "allegation" is the best term for the intro (as he says, that was reverted anyway.) I have substituted "dominant theory," but I kept the link to the other Wikipedia article. This is intended to be a compromise and I hope that it doesn't get reverted again. --Gelsomina 13:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the current Scientific theory is the only one. You can hardly say dominant, since the implication of the word dominant, is that there are other equally valid theories. Since there is no other such theory (but a few hypothesis') its misleading. (and it misrepresents the linked article). --Kim D. Petersen 14:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. There are other theories which maintain that climate change during recent history is caused by the same factors which caused climate change before the industrial revolution, or which cause climate change on Mars today: solar activity and/or cosmic radiation. --Gelsomina 06:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. None of these rises to the status of a scientific theory. At best they are hypotheses, usually refuted ones. They have no standing in the scientific community. --Stephan Schulz 07:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you are claiming that all climate change before the industrial revolution, including the ice ages, is a complete and utter mystery to climatologists? That there is no accepted theory to explain it? --Gelsomina 14:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh? Are we speaking the same language? I was talking about theories explaining the current climate change, not previous ones. If I find a corpse with a bullet in his head and a reasonable bleeding pattern, I am strongly drawn to the conclusion that he was shot - despite the fact that most previous deaths are not due to shooting. I can speculate that he died of other causes, of course. But then I find no poison and no pathogens, he seem to be in good health otherwise and well-nourished, and its very hard to account for the bullet if he was already dead. I have no trouble discarding the Voodoo hypothesis in that case... --Stephan Schulz 14:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your analogy trivializes climate change. A change as profound as an ice age indicates enormous processes at work. If such processes changed climate before, what makes you so certain that these processes are not still active? And perhaps more to the point, on what authority are you discounting those who claim that they are? --Gelsomina 14:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: These processes are certainly still active. But none of them, and no reasonable imaginable combination, would produce a signature like the current episode of global warming. And I say so based on both my own reading and understanding, and the considered scientific opinion on climate change, as expressed by the IPCC, supported by all leading scientific societies (and a number of minor ones), and vastly predominant in the scientific literature. --Stephan Schulz 15:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In your opinion (because it does seem to be your personal opinion that we are discussing here,) what is causing the melting of the ice caps on Mars? Is the warming observed here on earth more significant than the warming of Mars? --Gelsomina 06:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what you've been talking about. As I stated above, I am talking about the considered opinion of the scientific community. As for Mars, the "ice caps" are not "melting". Some dry ice (frozen CO2) is evaporating. We have extremely limited knowledge about Martian climate - Viking was only 15 Martian years ago, and we do not have even a local temperature series since then. There is some evidence that parts of Mars may be warming, but no comprehensive view about how wide-spread this warming is, and what the ultimate cause is. What we do know, of course, is that the favourite septical "theory" du jour for global warming on Earth (less clouds caused by less cosmic rays caused by increased solar activity) is inapplicable to Mars, which has a completely different system of ice- and sand clouds in a much much thinner atmosphere with a lot less thermal inertia. --Stephan Schulz 21:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Opening paragraph