Talk:Freeman Field mutiny

message: Good start for an important article. However the article had a NPOV problem with some of the logic used by your sources. I added one sentence to try to balance it, regarding the initial staffing of new groups. Not just at the beginning but throughout the war all new groups were started with a small core of officers and men and later expanded into full groups. See for instance the articles on the 456th Bomb Group, 91st Bomb Group, 9th Bomb Group, and 357th Fighter Group here in wiki. The conclusion that it "led many of the black trainees to believe that the Army did not want the unit to advance to full combat readiness"  is not borne out by facts, although the suspicions and resentments felt by the African-American officers at the time certainly is accurate. The other example here [On June 1, 1943, the Army created the 477th Bombardment Group Medium (M) to train African-American aviators to operate the B-25J Mitchell twin-engine medium bomber; but it did not activate the unit until January 15, 1944.] I left alone because I don't have access to a source showing otherwise, but the 477th was not originally created for the all-black bomber group project. It was originally activated in Florida to train crews on the B-26 and inactivated when no longer needed: "Constituted as 477th Bombardment Group (Medium) on 13 May 1943. Activated on 1 Jun 1943. Assigned to Third AF. Trained with B-26 aircraft. Inactivated on 25 Aug 1943. Stations. MacDill Field, Fla, 1 Jun-25 Aug 1943. Commanders. Lt Col Andrew O Lerche, 1943." (Maurer Maurer) A little thing, but again the suggestion of racially-biased reluctance to follow through with the training may not be so. Again, I don't know, I haven't the source. None of this is to say that the rest of the article is not valid. The AAF had a lot of flaws, but both Arnold and later the USAF were the first to push integration of the military despite resistance from within the ranks.--Buckboard 06:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Buckboard for the edits and the detailed explanation.  It's a pleasure to have one's work edited by someone who adds depth and nuance to a subject.  My main source, the James Warren account, has some pretty obvious biases that I tried not to transplant into the article.  But the staffing issue involved a non-obvious bias that I didn't question.  Although I'm proud of the basic article, I don't regard it as necessarily complete.  (Is anything on Wikipedia ever finished?)  One matter that I've been trying to find more information about is how many of the Freeman Field people applied for removal of their letters of reprimand after the initial removal of 15 in 1995...and also why the Air Force didn't automatically removed all 104 letters at the same time.  The matter of when the 477th was originally constituted is probably academic, but for the sake of completeness it probably should be cleared up.  Cheers!  --Cuppysfriend 23:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanx. You're correct that the origins of the 477th Group is basically academic. As you can probably tell, my interest is basically in the USAAF - USAF. But I take a "warts and all" attitude toward it. If you haven't read Guard of Honor, I encourage you to do so. Cozzens used the incident as a backdrop around which the novel is framed, but he did not try to "tell the story of"; iow, it's not a "docudrama". For one thing, he recognized the mistake (from the standpoint of military discipline) of trying to have the black officers sign the order and in his story, the commanders discard the idea. (The protest ensues anyway) Plue his novel takes place in Florida, dodging the issue of northern prejudice. He's more interested in the internal workings of people than social commentary--he juxtaposes the injustice of the club order (by a well-intentioned Old Army colonel who nonetheless is described by the protagonist as "the biggest fool I know") against the need to win the war (his mutiny takes place in mid-1943, with the issue still in doubt, not the end of the war)--but again, to see how it affects motivations, reactions, and reasoned or principled actions. It may give you a sense of actually being there. Cozzens worked directly for Gen. Arnold (mentioned but not portrayed in the book) and through him you realize that Arnold's sympathies were with the black officers but his obligations to the Air Force's responsibilities in the war. Cozzens has his main character tell his wife: "They feel they are unjustly treated. I think in many ways they are. But there are insurmountable difficulties in doing them justice. The only people who stood up for them were two offensive young fellows, I think principally interested in making themselves felt. I really saw nobody all day who was not in one way or another odious...And, of course, in every situation, I was odious, too." As to your second question, I can only surmise that the 15 letters immediately removed had already been petitioned for removal prior to the action--on file, so to speak. Law requires the setting aside of actions taken in accord with regulations be made by legal means--petition for removal, presidential pardon, or congressional action. (That which is born by red tape must be removed by red tape). A good example that this is so can be seen in Death of Isoroku Yamamoto, where one ace's claim has been thoroughly "proven" but the record not corrected even after the red tape process. Where matters of principle or social responsibility are involved, there is a temptation to ascribe actions as having only one motivation (my original reason for editing this article was to allow for the possibility that other forces--such as the inertia of a large and cumbersome military--were at work here). The value of novels like Guard of Honor (and I suspect the reason it won the Pulitzer) is that it shows people and the effects they have on big events are much more complex than that. One more tidbit. Col. Selway commanded the 332nd Fighter Group (the other Tuskegee Airmen group) while it was in training before being assigned to the 477th. Cheers to you and keep up the good work on this article.--Buckboard 15:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
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