Talk:Kanwar Pal Singh Gill

message: Hi Daulakh... I have provided enough evidences with all the text which I have added, If you have any doubts on Amnesty International's Reports or on rest of the references then please talk, but please do not suppress the truth. Please go through the provided references first. I have not deleted any of the information, I have simply added more alongwith references. This is Wikipedia and I beleive that I have the same rights as you. So with due respect, it is my humble request that please do not delete the information which I have added recently.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singh6 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A request to DAulakh

message: I have reverted your changes to a POV version. Please read your talk page. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 17:33, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Thetruth|Thetruth]]'s contribution

message: *Reverted  - also violated policies as enshrined in biography of living people. --Bhadani (talk) 17:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverted

message: The article has a  tag but no explanation of the issue. I am going to remove the tag as the editor Satanoid is not explaining why s/he feels that. Seeing Satanoid's history, I'm not too excited that s/he will explain the tagging. Nevetheless, I'll be fine if the editor comes back and explains - we can discuss. However, I'll let the POV tag intact because I feel there are certain issues which needs fixing before that tag can be removed. Can someone explain the POV part as well. Thanks, --RoadAhead =Discuss= 21:03, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issue tags 

message: "Gill became involved in sports administration after retirement from police work and was the President of the Indian Hockey Federation" --> This is not correct language (I think) it needs fixing because currently it reflects to the reader that the subject "became involved" voluntarily or so. Perhaps we should work on finding the facts around this, or fix the language to not give such impression. --RoadAhead =Discuss= 21:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Became involved"? or "was given the post of"? 

message: The edit war over this seems to have died, but the article is littered with editwar debris and unsourced or poorly sourced content, some of it rather rude, some of it rather too glowing.  I killed a couple of bits but not going to spend a lot of time on it.  Hopefully someone who knows more will apply the editorial hatchet to the bits that need to go.- sinneed (talk) 04:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  BLP flags 

message: Doesn't belong in a wp:BLP at all.  REALLY doesn't belong in the wp:lead of a BLP.  - sinneed (talk) 12:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accusations... in lead 

message: Clearly, there are conflicting reports in the press.  The bare statements in the lead are misleading, and I am removing them formally.  If they are restored, I will flag them and alert the BLP noticeboard.  I will not remove them again.- sinneed (talk) 04:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scandal at IHF 

message: Terrorism <> Militancy in and of itself is not a PoV term. Calling an attack a terrorist act, or a person a terrorist or an organization a terrorist one... those would be PoV in many cases.  Clearly there was terrorism in Punjab.  Buses and planes bombed, with the target being no one in particular, just whoever showed up at the bus stop during that 10 minutes, is clearly terrorism, I should think... but in this case it is moot.- sinneed (talk) 03:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But you do NOT know who did it... KPS Gill and his government, to change public opinion against Khalistan movement or Khalistani organizations, to change public opinion (which is normally required by rebels to take people alongwith)
against themselves. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 03:53, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Somehow I missed this gem.  Let me get this straight... you are proposing that the Government of India perpetrated a massive and enourmously successful conspiracy to pretend that there was Sikh Terrorism in Punjab... that it was so good that even today, 25 years on, there is no outcry over their conspiracy... but only that they violated human rights seriously in fighting the terrorism?  I think you will find little support for such a position.- sinneed (talk) 05:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Militancy <> Terrorism 

message: I am questioning the need of this subsection.  did KPS Gill murder this person ???  if not then why such a prominent subsection in this article. does not seem NPOV at allWikireader41 (talk) 17:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  especially since this is mentioned in the prior section on human rights abuses.  and what is ensaaf.  is it a reliable source by any stretch of imaginationWikireader41 (talk) 17:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  No need for Ensaaf to be a wp:RS.  The book is published.  Gill visited the person while in custody, "with the marks of torture on his person" according to a deposition.  Even an author who considers him a hero objects to this.- sinneed (talk) 19:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Sorry, too many sources.  The Ensaaf pleadings to the courts would be reliable in that they say what is here.  They need not be correct, the court has only ruled that there should be an investigation.  Many many pleadings turn out to be incorrect... and may well not belong here.- sinneed (talk) 20:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  i was talking about ensaaf.org.  is that a RS.  which RS mention it ??  also if we want to keep the section on Jaswant Singh Khalra how about adding a subsection on killing of Talwinder Singh Parmar  who was a militant belonging to a designated terrorist organization and was involved in Air India Flight 182 bombing. If Gill is responsible vicariously for Khalra's death surely he should get credit for killing Parmar also ( this happened when KPS was chief) Wikireader41 (talk) 00:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Human rights organizations, including ENSAAF, Amnesty, HRW, Committee for Information and Initiative on Punjab, CIIP etc are all relaiable per wp:rs. They all are third party sources, which documented the crimes and tried to get justice to the victims through all legal means. They did NOT advocate Khalistan and never hailed Khalistani militant organizations in the whole process--99.51.223.161 (talk) 01:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Anon - Actually, HROs are not wp:RS at all times.  Many have their own agendas... they are intimately involved as for example thinktanks... otherwise they would not exist.  They must be used wisely.  IHRO was a Punjab-only HRO, and the RS board declined it (it is defunct now, so the point in its case is moot).  There is no blanket RS acceptance just because an organization is (or claims to be) an HRO.  wp:Notability is important, for example... and Ensaaf seems weak there...- sinneed (talk) 01:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Wikireader41 -  I would say that, like SATP, it is a useful source within limits.  SATP seems to have much more notability (thank you), but that could simply be because no one has expended the effort you did to firm it up... it has no article at all.  I am dubious because I see little notability.  I am dubious because of its focus on Punjab.  As above, there is a history of a Punjab-focus-HRO being too focused on Punjab and failing credibility.- sinneed (talk) 01:53, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

text: *"If Gill is responsible vicariously" - not vicariously.  He was there according to one of his officer's testimony in 2005.  Until that bit was well-sourced I was doubtful about the mention here, and especially so MUCH coverage.  I am still doubtful about all that volume.  I expect that eventually it will need to be cut down to who the man was, what he did to tick off the police, that he died, and that 10 years later an officer testified the Gill was there after the writ of habeous corpus was served, and visited with the man for 30 minutes, the claim about the advice.  Court testimony is very strong sourcing.  I still want to get the writ into the text.- sinneed (talk) 02:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  anon IP. please do not compare ensaaf.org to amnesty.  otherwise we can compare KPS to jesus christ.  do any secondary sources mention anything about ensaaf.org.  it appears to be a one person show run from somebodies basement to me. any secondary sources talking about ensaaf.org will be welcome Wikireader41 (talk) 02:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  No worries! There will be, and we all can find them out. Also, please take a look at my last reply under section Nexalite Movement - Please help. I hope that my reply duly addresses some of the confusions about this notability.--99.51.223.161 (talk) 02:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * This has already been discussed recently - so that makes 3 logged-in editors opposed, and 1 anon supporting.  Unless something changes, clearly for the moment Ensaaf.org does not have wp:consensus as a wp:RS.  The RS discussion board would be a good place to gather support.- sinneed (talk) 02:42, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * To clarify... I do not oppose using Ensaaf.org in footnotes under all circumstances... but simply that it lacks the notability of, say, Amnesty International.- sinneed (talk) 02:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

text:  I agree.  this is a BLP.  remember he is innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law.  this is very contentious info which needs to be removed asap.  right now to a casual reader it might appear thet KPS killed this guy personally.Wikireader41 (talk) 01:11, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where information is perserved based on available secondary references. It is not an Indian judicial court. There are several countries in the world which kill their opponents and let their own criminals walk scot free.  {You have also accepted in the discussions (in this talk page) that he killed thousands of innocents}. Your insistence of removing all anti-KPS Gill information simply show your own POV and nothing else.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.183.55.84 (talk) 04:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This section is very crucial for this article, it links "KPS Gill (subject) with his directly controlled law breaking police" + "KPS Gill's illegal practices/violations of law of the land" with "an innocent world famous human rights activist's beating, torture and cold blood murder". --99.51.223.161 (talk) 06:16, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  it is interesting anon IPs are both based in Texas.  maybe I should start calling my buddies too.  even if we assume that he had some responsibility in Khalras murder.  what about the responsibility of others.  eg Prime Minister of India who could have dismissed him, Bill Clinton (as the leader of free world he could have bombed or coerced India),  Khalras neighbours who could have stormed the place where Khalra was held and freed him. why are you guys making Gill the scapegoat as if he was the the only person responsible???  any reference to website ensaaaf.org needs to go.   it seems to be run for a single purpose and pushes an agenda which is clearly not NPOV. SATP on other hand focusses on all terrorism in the subcontinent and also has Ajai Sahni who is an expert in his own right and had nothing to do with panjab insurgency. we need to stick to RS.  plenty of info on Gill in mainstream media that we do not have to rely on dubious sources. and yes positive and any negative info needs to be given due weight as presented in RSWikireader41 (talk) 14:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Mr. Wikireader41, I am from state of California and also appose your pov pushing in the article. Now are you going to say that all editors from USA are friends of each other. Please stop attacking editors. --166.129.123.49 (talk) 02:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: when Indian officers are themselves saying that``Whatever was done in Punjab to stamp out militancy was done with the full knowledge and approval -- it may not have been vocal but was certainly tacit -- of everyone from the Prime Minister downward. and rest of India knew about ithttp://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19970526/14650203.html. So when prime minister was himself involved in mass murders committed under KPS Gill's command then who would fire him. STOP this ruthless POV pushing.--166.129.123.49 (talk) 02:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: *This needs to be covered in Khalra's article, and it is not.  What is here should be the Gill-related bits of that article.  The lack of interest in the Khalra article makes it hard to wp:AGF and makes this look like a wp:POV Push- sinneed (talk) 16:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *See here, it proves wikireader41's wp:pov history and resulted blocking. I agree with several other editors that he is pushing hisPOV here. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 07:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *That was a needless unpleasantness. Remarks like this break wp:talk, and make it harder to reach wp:consensus.- sinneed (talk) 13:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Murder of Human Rights activist Jaswant Singh Khalra

message: I see a 1999 collection of work into a book, but is this an electronic-only thing?  If so, does it have an existence outside the web site?  Does it deserve a separate mention at all?
At the moment, I think it does rate a mention, I see a number of academic citations and press references.  I do think it is essentially part of the web site... but in this age of emedia I am not sure that matters.- sinneed (talk) 15:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  it doesnt matter.  remember wikipedia.  it does not exist on paper;-) Wikireader41 (talk) 01:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  My concern is not related to Wikipedia.  It is related to reality.  If this is electronic-only, and it is "published" by putting it on SATP.org... then it has no separate existence... I see it as part of SATP, and claiming it is a quarterly journal is specious, misleading the reader.- sinneed (talk) 19:21, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  same would apply to wikipedia signpost.  i dont think that is published on paper.Wikireader41 (talk) 20:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Indeed, it would.  I fear I miss your point.- sinneed (talk) 21:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Faultlines - does it exist apart from the web site? 

message: There is an entire article on the HR in Punjab, with the laws and immunity already discussed.  It is clear to me that this does not belong here.  Does it belong there?  This is a wp:BLP.  There are specific calls for prosecution of Gill, and those *MIGHT* go here if they are adequately noted and meet wp:BLP in all other ways.- sinneed (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  i could not agree more Wikireader41 (talk) 01:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: why "Might"?. one editor wikireaded41 believe that KPS Gill's achievements should be documented in as much detail as possible and rest everything must be killed OR moved. waooo ..... what a view.... 'You can not expect more'... 'this is all what you want mannn'.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.183.55.84 (talk) 04:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Might belong because they might fit within the wp:BLP.- sinneed (talk) 04:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that following should be part of it: ..related to Gill, where-ever his name/his opinion/his acts was/were quoted/called/used/praised/supported by himself and/or others. Allegations against him and/or his allegations against others, if he ever tried to protect/support police officials being persecuted in court cases. If his juniors or fellow officers tried to protect the police officials allegedly involved in human rights violations related court cases where committed crimes reasonably fell under his rule. If state/governments accepted what he asked, within a reasonable time period/if there is an indication that commited crimes were sanctioned/supported by his high ups as well (because, in this case it will relieve him for some of his excesses) and we can discuss other sources/text on case by case basis.--99.51.223.161 (talk) 07:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  yes I believe his contibutions need to be mentioned in DETAIL.  He is a senior police officer who smashed khalistanis .  he smashed violence in Gujarat.  he is sought after for an expertise in counterterrorism.  I challenge any editor to point out the name of a policeman from any country who has been asked to advise in multiple countries and by multiple governments ( inspite of his outspoken criticism of the Indian government). any allegations against him are just that.  This article in the current form is totally topsy turvy.  It was deliberately written by cherry picking negative things about him.  it is a negatively written article pushing POV of his enemies ( Babbar Khalsa etc ) etc.  most people in Punjab ( forget about rest of India) think of him as a hero.  The whole section on Khalras murder soes NOT belong here.  maybe  half a sentence would be OK.  undue weight violates NPOVWikireader41 (talk) 13:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I look forward to your work. I disagree strongly about Khalra's murder subsection (not section, that was my mistake, and I fixed it). - sinneed (talk) 19:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prosecution of police for HR violations during the Punjab insurgency 

message: would propose a section on punjab insurgency with a brief backgrounder for the new reader and a link to main article.  His role in defeating it needs to be discussed in detail since that was his main achievement.  the widespread violations of Human rights during that era needs to be given due weight & have a subsection within this section with allegations about his involvement in death of Khalra as reported in RS mentioned in there.Wikireader41 (talk) 01:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. But this is covered in 1gazillion articles already, and each one is conflict-ridden.- sinneed (talk) 19:16, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insurgency in Punjab

message: interesting that this report on Khalra has NO mention of KPS Gill.Wikireader41 (talk) 14:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is it interesting?  Should they include the full text of each in every future report?- sinneed (talk) 19:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What?  You posted a report from 1998 and lament the fact that it doesn't include the 2005 testimony?- sinneed (talk) 19:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  the 2005 testimony was that somebody had seen Gill visit Khalra a few days prior to Khalra's death.  maybe he went there to order Khalra's release?? too much weight is being given to one persons testimony.  Khalra murder case has been decided and KPS was not convicted.  so having a separate section on this murder violates WP:DUEWikireader41 (talk) 20:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Then he certainly should have done so.  He could have taken the man to a hospital right then, if he was there.  He was the DGP.  He had loyal men and a car.  He could have saved him on the spot.  1 witness testified in court.  1 is all it takes.  wp:BALANCE - finding a source that says Gill was never there would be useful, perhaps an interested editor will do so.- sinneed (talk) 21:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

text:  also the 1998 report was prepared full 3 years after the murder.  so they had ample time to research this. Wikireader41 (talk) 20:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * If witnesses are unwilling to speak, as the witness stated in this case, no they did not.  And it doesn't matter.  Court testimony.  Very much wp:RS.  Yes, witnesses lie.  Thus, we listen to both sides.  An interested editor may find another side.- sinneed (talk) 21:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Good Point. --166.129.123.49 (talk) 02:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Amnesty International Report

message: At that time, KPS Gill had been the head of the Indian Hockey Federation (IHF) roughly for 15 years.
Press variously reported that Gill was "...sacked..." or stated that the IOA was "...removing him by suspending the IHF..." or stated "While Gill wasn’t specifically ‘sacked’..."
In any event, KPS Gill was reportedly to lead the Indian Hockey Federation (IHF) in June 2009  meetings with the new Hockey India organization.
Clearly, since the IHF was not under the control of the IOA, the IOA could not fire anyone there.  As of last month, Gill was still in charge of the IHF, which still exists.  It simply doesn't provide an Olympic team for India anymore.- sinneed (talk) 03:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Sineed, this reference seems interesting, it might shed some light to solve this IHF puzzle.--99.51.223.161 (talk) 09:34, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: * There is no puzzle.  The press got excited and confused itself.- sinneed (talk) 13:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Thanks! Sinneed, This IHF episode still look a little puzzle to me. I would like to do some further research on it and we will document it properly so that we could avoid any edit wars between any editors in the future as well.--99.51.223.161 (talk) 08:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit wars are very very easy to avoid.  Don't do it, and it never happens.  Simple. :)  There is nothing complex about the IHF thing, but enjoy.- sinneed (talk) 12:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confused press mess 

message: *I also have objection to the way this article is being re-constructed. 
*We should reasonably document it in such a way that it follows the time/dates instead of putting the carreer section at the top and then further dividing it into years and putting the critical Human Rights Violations, Khalra case, Sexual harassment conviction, IHF episodes at the very bottom.
*Information in the career section should be preserved but re-structured to miniminimize the text to not to overshadow this controversial notability's negative points. We should NOT forget that he is a CONTROVERSIAL (references are there) notability. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 07:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * I share the concern about having the sections... the career section, if expanding greatly, would be the place for those.  Those are part of his career.  Unfortunately, the tiny section on the punjab portion of his career was entirely a copyvio and I cut it.  Most of the HR stuff belongs in the article on it, but that is so bad that taking it out of here would leave it uncovered.  Most certainly the career section does not need to be cut.  The article is about Gill.- sinneed (talk) 13:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * I decided to wp:be bold.  Both of the other active editors objected to the section structure, from different points of view. - I have moved the initial events into the career section.  I have also given the parts that don't fit into the career section "later developments" sections.  These need to be SHARPLY controlled, focused on Gill, mindful of wp:BLP.Most of the content belongs in their articles.  Ideally, (probably not practical) nothing should be here that isn't there, and most of what is there should not be here.- sinneed (talk) 01:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Upon review, I put all the later events into a single section.- sinneed (talk) 01:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *I am sorry for the mis-understanding. No! I did not have objections to the sections/sub-sections/sub-sub sections, I simply wanted to put them in the flow of time/years. I have re-added them but within the flow of time/years which you have constructed--99.51.223.161 (talk) 08:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Flow of article

message: He is known to be a controversial figure because of his role in Assam Rediff, PunjabIndian Express, Supercop to the rescueDemocracy and counterterrorism by Robert J. Art, Louise Richardson, Indian Hockey federationThe Times of India, Know your ministers: MS Gillhttp://www.inewsindia.com/2008/04/22/hockey-controversy-sports-minister-asks-kps-gill-to-quit/, Human rights violations in PunjabIPCS Special Report Left Extremism in India and his conviction in a sexual harassment case in India etc.
He is known to be a controversial figure because of his role in Assam Rediff, PunjabIndian Express, Supercop to the rescueDemocracy and counterterrorism by Robert J. Art, Louise Richardson, Indian Hockey federationThe Times of India, Know your ministers: MS Gillhttp://www.inewsindia.com/2008/04/22/hockey-controversy-sports-minister-asks-kps-gill-to-quit/, Human rights violations in PunjabIPCS Special Report Left Extremism in India and his conviction in a sexual harassment case in India etc.
*Moving the controversy up to 2nd sentence since this seems important.- sinneed (talk) 12:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Lead section look much better now. Excellent work.--144.160.130.16 (talk) 22:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New addition to the lead, repetitive. Cut to talk for possible inclusion. 

message: Why are the double-periods at the end of the sentences important?  In English, sentences end in a single period.  Please stop.- sinneed (talk) 12:59, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Double periods. 

message: This is a well known national level organization run by a Sikh Maninder Singh Bitta.  the award given to Gill is notable enough for a one sentence mention.  I am contemplating writing an article on MS Bitta and AIATF .  plenty of references are available in RS unlike ensaaf.org Thank You.Wikireader41 (talk) 13:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  please discuss any issues about AIATF here.  perhaps a google search on Maninder Singh Bitta will help the skeptics Wikireader41 (talk) 20:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: All India Anti-terrorist Front

message: I share the anon concern about the Gill quotes of opinion in the career section.  If these belong in the article, please move them out of the career section.  Perhaps a "Gill's political opinion" or "Gill's political commentary" section or something.  Please consider whether they are needed at all.  I used the editorial hatchet on a good bit of this before.- sinneed (talk) 14:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe "Gill's comments on anti-terrorist activities"... he is a widely-acknowledged expert there.- sinneed (talk) 14:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see no problem moving them to another section .  perhaps 'Political views" or similar Wikireader41 (talk) 14:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  though one could argue that his comments belong in the career section as now his career is that of an author, speaker and counter-terrorism expert.  these comments give invaluable insight into his persona and are all well referenced from RS. Wikireader41 (talk) 14:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  * Not really.  If it is a famous or notable remark it would belong in wikiquote.  Even if it was professionally-given, it would be appropriate only in so far as the remark itself was notable... that is, something like the "Bullet for bullet" of Ribeiro.- sinneed (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  his criticism of Indian govt is definitely notable.  also remarks on terrorism and tactics are notable.  some of the remarks are there because I feel its better an less controversial if you just say it as the subject said it rather than trying to describe it yourself which can lead to POV issues.  i am also thinking of adding a subsection on 'Tactics' used in punjab since I found several 'academic' papers addressing the police tactics in Punjab and would  be of interest to readers.Wikireader41 (talk) 19:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opinions of Gill. 

message: I cut "Sexual harassment conviction" and "Public Fear - Jaswant Singh Khalra's murder".  Neither is appropriate.  It may be we need subsubs, but they will need to be neutral or wp:BALANCED.  Neither of those is acceptable, even if they were presented with "balance".  I have confidence you will find little support for them.
To understand that they are not, imagine if someone put in headings like "Public Celebration - Gill a hero" and "Gill crushes terrorist scum" and "Gill saves state from babykillers".  Clearly this would be no good.  (and I would chop them instantly)
It may be that the butt-getting-while-drunk thing is best served by being presented outside the flow... it is only nominally career-related.  Doing so overstates its imporance though, so I am dubious.  It also has not been wp:BALANCED with his side of the story, and I don't care to do it.
- sinneed (talk) 17:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * I also think that that this 'sexual thing' is best served by being presented outside the flow with its own section. --144.160.130.16 (talk) 01:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

text: *Support - I support these sub-sub sections. Especially Khalra event is one of the world famous events. It definitely need its section within the flow. Sexual conviction is also distinct event for such a notability. --209.183.55.111 (talk) 19:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Oppose -  the bottom patting episode is blown out of proportion by all parties.  Not that he raped someone or even pinched their bottom or kissed them .  I am OK with a brief mention.  IMHO it was publicity stunt or more likely somebody dared him.  Khalra incident is a notable event no doubt.  just that KPS' connection is flimsy at best.  one witness after a decade !!!!   Accusation of (being an accomplice) in murder is pretty serious and could open WP to litigation.  this is a BLP and he is very much alive and kicking so we have to be very very careful how we present this.  would be OK to mention it in the section on HR abuses in Punjab during his era which of course were real and are well documented ( and an integral part of his tactics)Wikireader41 (talk) 19:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Wikieditor41 seems to be a big fan wp:pov of KPS Gill, one one side, he is are prodly saying  that yes! he killed thousands of innocents and when one witness (a police officer) dared to speak in the court, then he does not wp:like it. I guess some editor Sinnee has already replied to him that "1" is all it takes + Court testimoney], so please STOP opposing it under one excuse or another.--135.214.150.104 (talk) 20:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

text: *Support - I, an editor from New Jersey, support inclusion of both of these sub sections. --135.214.150.104 (talk) 20:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  One persons testimony is just that.  this is a BLP.  you cant accuse anybody of murder on WP just because you don't like the person.  it would help if you can show that a murder case is filed against him.  yes thousands of people died in Punjab both at the hands of ISI trained Khalistanis who had forgotten who the Guru's murderers were and also the Police.  HR violation definitely deserve a section in the article.  good job editor from New 'Zersey' which country is that in ??? ;-)Wikireader41 (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * This is your another strong wp:pov confession - at the hands of ISI trained Khalistanis who had forgotten who the Guru's murderers were , what guru's murder got to do with this article--135.214.154.104 (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Please feel free to check US political map to learn differences difference between a state and a country. Please concentrate on the contents and NOT on the editors.--135.214.154.104 (talk) 20:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

text:  I am sorry I could not find New 'Zersey' on the map.  please focus on my edits rather than me.  you are the one who were accuising me Wikireader41 (talk) 20:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *Support - I also support the additon of both of these sub-sub-sections. These are more notable than his opinions and books. If 'Sexual conviction' is not part of his career then it can be given its own section as it had prior to this massive re-structuring. --144.160.130.16 (talk) 00:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Feel free to take it up with the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard.  It won't go in any other way.  I have great confidence you won't find much support.  wp:BLP applies, this is a wp:3RR exception.  I look forward to other proposals, because those 2 proposed headings won't fly..- sinneed (talk) 01:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  subsubheadings in career 

message: I am concerned that the activism and opinion section breaks or will break wp:SOAPBOX.  These opinions and such, as I understand it, should address issues relating to the subjects notability.  For example, his opinions on the butt-getting, his own mixed reception in the world, accusations of HR violations in Punjab and especially in the murder of the activist.
I think you should look hard at each of these bits you have added, and ask whether they belong in an encylopdia article.- sinneed (talk) 23:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me expand that by saying I am no expert, that is just my understanding from reading the document and getting snarled at a few times. :)- sinneed (talk) 23:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the subjects notability is uncontested here and does not need any more help.  a persons opinions especially ones which are notable enough to be published by secondary RS belong.  It would be different if we just took statements from SATP which were not deemed notable by anybody else and put them here.  we editors don't decide what is notable and what is not.  the RS do by publishing them.Wikireader41 (talk) 00:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * "a persons opinions especially ones which are notable enough to be published by secondary RS belong" whoever told you that misled you.- sinneed (talk) 01:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  what makes you say so ?? Wikireader41 (talk) 02:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * wp:SOAPBOX for one.  More broadly wp:NOT in general.  In thinking, though... any major public speaking figure will have a STAGGERING volume of notable speaking.- sinneed (talk) 13:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * wp:QUOTE for another.  I finally found what I was looking for there.  Please consider Wikiquote.- sinneed (talk) 04:54, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see nothing in there that quotes cannot be included.  of course we should be reasonable and only include the most notable quotes.  we do not certainly want a STAGGERING volume of his day to day quotes in the article.  most of these are not reported in RS.  I am sure he does not open his mouth once every few months only.  just few of his notable quotes on notable incidents ;-)01:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

text:  as I see it we have one comment from 2002, 2003, 2006,2007, 2008 and one from 2009.  hardly a STAGGERING volume.  in the same 7 year period he probably made hundreds of thousands of comments most of which did NOT make it to RS.  6 comments over a 7 year period can hardly be considered unreasonable amonut to keep in this article about a person who is currently notable mainly for his opinion and commentsWikireader41 (talk) 01:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soapbox 

message: No one currently on this page has my permission to summarize or otherwise make representations about my opinion.  I will attempt to repair the damage done over my signature.- sinneed (talk) 02:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  that is a very serious allegation.  should we get the page semi protected Wikireader41 (talk) 02:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: * Talk pages are almost never protected.  Blocking the editor is a real possibility.  Your positions have been "sumarized" for you as well.- sinneed (talk) 02:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see that.  let me go on record saying that these are 'unauthorized' changes.  IP based vandalism frequently leads to Talk pages being protected in my experience. Wikireader41 (talk) 02:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  * I defer to your greater experience.  I would hate to take that step.  I would very much like to see an assurance from the IP that it won't ever happen again.- sinneed (talk) 02:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  * I wont. I was trying to simplfyy some of the mess, but if you dont like to. I wont summarize them on this page any more. Enjoy.--144.160.130.16 (talk) 02:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  * Your attempt was not a success.  This isn't a matter of wp:LIKE.  This is a matter of wp:talk.  wp:Wikipedia is not a democracy, we aren't voting.  Even if we were wp:!voteing, it would most certainly be incorrect for anyone else to enter someone's !vote for them.  We are discussing, at this point.  If we get well down the road in the wp:dispute resolution process on some point or other, we may wind up with a !vote about something.  So far we have resolved points with wp:BRD.
- sinneed (talk) 13:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  My remarks on this page have been fundamentally changed by an anon editor. 

message: I have signed each chunk for easy discussion.  Please do.  We are not !vote-ing, no need to try to summarize... this is for open and full discussion.
I had added the BLP and refimprove tags.
*While I think the article needs more content and work, and especially needs more content in supporting articles that can't be part of the BLP, I think it has adequate sources for what is here.  It clearly did not, previously.  In a few spots it suffers from wp:POINT editing, and I confess I added too many sources once myself, and I apologize for that.<Br>If anyone disagrees, please restore the flag, but if there is no coherent explanation, I shall kill it  again.--- sinneed (talk) 04:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overall article tags - this is an area for discussion.  Please join in if interested. 

message: I am leaving the POV flag up, as I suspect rather strongly there will never be an article that will be balanced in the view of either his intense supporters nor fierce enemies.  If someone removes, I will almost certainly restore it. --- sinneed (talk) 04:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: <nowiki>{{POV}} tag</nowiki> - July 2009

message: these are discussed at some length in this research study for US dept of Defence  by RAND corporation. where do we put this info. BTW rv ip based vandalism ( removing cited info without consensus) is exempt from 3R rule.  I have sought admin intervention on this matter already. Cheers. Wikireader41 (talk) 04:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: wp:edit warring whether with anons or named users is never acceptable.  This was not vandalism, but a straight content dispute.  As the note says "Vandalism must be indisputable!"- sinneed (talk) 13:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Gills tactics in punjab

message: Surely this is so, as there is no discussion of changes proposed.- sinneed (talk) 13:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  absolutely . under the cicumstances.  would support continued protection. ;-)Wikireader41 (talk) 21:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think that makes it unanimous, as no one but you and I seem to care enough to actually post.  Painful though it was, I think the article is TREMENDOUSLY improved.- sinneed (talk) 18:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nope! It is better but NOT tremendously improved. The disputes are still there, which I do not want to re-type. Editors can read this discussion page.--144.160.130.16 (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But no one has a change to propose, to ask an admin to make the edit?  No new compromise?  No new ideas?  It isn't disputes we need, it is proposed resolutions.  So again, no one has a single proposal?  Not one?- sinneed (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Where are the resolutions of previous discussions/disputes ?--99.51.223.161 (talk) 03:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wherever you have them in your mind.  Hopefully, you will place them here in the talk page.- sinneed (talk) 04:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Still hoping to hear from those who propose compromise in the article.- sinneed (talk) 05:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  So, everyone is very happy with the state of the article, right? 

message: "As of July 2009, Gill remained its president and..."
I would like to ask an admin to change this to 
"As of July 2009, Gill remained president of the Institute for Conflict Management, and..."
Any concerns?  No rush. I'll leave this here a few days to allow for objections or furhter ideas before putting in the request.- sinneed (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed change 

message: There are several dead links.  Please see Wikipedia:Dead external links#Repairing and do not delete them.  Instead, please mark them as dead links, or better, fix them by finding where they have moved to, or if print, point to the print source.  I won't restore them again, and the edit is easily reverted.  But please don't.- Sinneed 22:22, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead links 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081003034426/http://news.sbs.com.au:80/dateline/index.php?page=archive&daysum=2002-04-03 to http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php?page=archive&daysum=2002-04-03
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Kanwar Pal Singh Gill. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090618055749/http://www.sakaaltimes.com:80/2009/06/15125851/IHF-ready-to-merge-with-Hockey.html to http://www.sakaaltimes.com/2009/06/15125851/IHF-ready-to-merge-with-Hockey.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080509020832/http://www.hindustantimes.com:80/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=90876764-7915-4961-a538-14a4fc12135f&&Headline=KPS+Gill+sacked+as+Indian+hockey+chief to http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=90876764-7915-4961-a538-14a4fc12135f&&Headline=KPS+Gill+sacked+as+Indian+hockey+chief
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080828164401/http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/india__who_killed_the_sikhs_130052 to http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/india__who_killed_the_sikhs_130052
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Kanwar Pal Singh Gill. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110606063030/http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=90876764-7915-4961-a538-14a4fc12135f&&Headline=KPS+Gill+sacked+as+Indian+hockey+chief to http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=90876764-7915-4961-a538-14a4fc12135f&&Headline=KPS+Gill+sacked+as+Indian+hockey+chief
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120226092244/http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=7753 to http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=7753
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080828164401/http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/india__who_killed_the_sikhs_130052 to http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/india__who_killed_the_sikhs_130052
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The remarks made by some user are derogatory and communalistic which is against the policy of Wikipedia. Admin should put a editing lock ASAP. Someone is adding illegitimate content and vandalising the page. ACTION REQUIRED. Other editors also have objected to the the remarks written  AnadiDoD (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Repeated vandalism and derogatory remarks being added, admin lock required. Action required ASAP 

message: Later developments in human rights matters belongs to the Human rights in Punjab, India.most of the material is not about him .Hence removed it.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 01:27, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Later developments in human rights  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080720031811/http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Gill-faces-explayers-ire-for-professional-mourners-remark/284416/ to http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Gill-faces-explayers-ire-for-professional-mourners-remark/284416/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080602110710/http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/K-P-S-Gill-sacked-IHF-suspended/302695/ to http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/K-P-S-Gill-sacked-IHF-suspended/302695/
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thread_title:  External links modified