Talk:The Undertaker/Archive 4

message: This sentence - "Despite his strong showing against Lex Luger, WCW declined to renew Calaway's contract, and he signed with the World Wrestling Federation (WWF) in late October 1990. " Doesn't really make sense. His "strong showing" was presumably scripted, that shouldn't have had any bearing on whether WCW renewed his contract. Wrestlers are not awarded contracts for winning their matches (they're told which matches they win by whoever writes the script) they're awarded contracts for other reasons. Blankfrackis 02:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the script says who wins, but the wrestlers talent and work ethics is what determines how well they do in a match, how believeable it looks, how the fans respond to it. It's also a mistaken belief that just because the finish is agreed upon in advance that every single move in the match is written down like a script-like form. Yes that does happen from time to time but generally the two wrestlers lay out some of the "spots" along the way and then adapt while in the ring. Look at it this way, why do actors win awards for their roles when it's all scripted? it's in their interpretation of the material - it's much the same with wrestlers really. MPJ-DK 01:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sentence doesn't really make sense

message: Anyone know the birthdates of his children? And does he have two sons with his ex-wife Jodi Lynn or just one? (MgTurtle 19:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children? 

message: :GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:a (fair representation):  b (all significant views): 
#It is stable.
#:
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
#:a (tagged and captioned):  b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales): 
#Overall: 
#:a Pass/Fail: 
The only thing I whould like to say is that the image/text ratio is low, but it doesn't really need an image of him each year.
Passes all the other points (see checklist) I'm passing it.-FlubecaTalk 20:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately this article has been delisted again. For the same reasons as the last time. Please don't nominate it at GAC again until the "in-universe" issues have been corrected and the article meets all of the criteria listed at WP:WIAGA. The discussion for delistment, now in archive, can be found here. Regards, Lara♥Love 13:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good article review

message: Anyone think that some of Sara's info. should be on this page like her birthday and how the met and stuff or should be recreate her page with sources?(MgTurtle 16:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: She is not notable enough to have her own page. She had one, but it was deleted. You can read the discussion here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sara Calaway. Nikki311 21:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sara's info 

message: Can someone remove this name from his ring names? It was one of his nicknames (and listed as such) but never a ring name. This page is protected, so I cannot edit this.  --Endlessdan 18:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  BIG EVIL 

message: It says on the top of the article that it is semi-protected, but I am unable to make any edits, and my account is more than a year old. Anyone else having this problem, or just me? (Sawyer 09:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was semi-protected but it was then changed to full protection. -  Deep   Shadow  09:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  can we assume you mean "too many" people? Or maybe "two many" people? it makes a difference -- use spell check.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.79.62.16 (talk) 11:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: How is the article a disgrace? Or is it the people editing it which is a disgrace? Darrenhusted 17:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection 

message: A lot of the information on this article needs to be deleted. It's a outrageous. Talking about everyone of his feuds is inappropriate. Maybe we can throw in a couple of his best moments and the main parts of his character and what he wears, but to dwell on his feuds... In fact, to go through almost every one of his feuds in order since 1990 is outrageous. This article is outrageous! Tratare 07:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This sounds all too familiar. Anyone else agree? -  Deep   Shadow  20:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup; Very. --  ThinkBlue  (Hit BLUE) 01:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleting lots of this article 

message: I just cleaned up the article a bit. Mostly I combined like citations, removed peacock words and unattributed weaselly phrases, as well as removed some of the continuous linking of names. I also changed the "cleanup" tag to a "in-universe" tag, because the paragraphs about his career are still, well, "in-universe". Anyway, I tried to write this out in my last edit summary, but I accidentally pressed enter before I finished, so basically, I'm just letting everyone know why I changed the tag. Nikki311 23:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the tag does apply. Check Candice Michelle, Bobby Eaton, or John Cena to read a wrestling article that is out of universe. When this article was delisted from being a Good Article, the major concern was the fact that it was still in universe. Mostly, it needs to be made 100% clear that the matches are pre-determined and the storylines are scripted. I'm adding the tag back until these issues are addressed. Nikki311 15:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't care if you remove the tag or not, I doesn't change the fact that the article is written primarily in-universe. Clearly, I'm having a hard time explaining this. I can refer you to either User:LaraLove or User:MPJ-DK who have both done GA reviews for wrestling articles (MPJ-DK also has experience tweaking an article so that it no longer is "in-universe"). You can also bring it up at WPT:PW, where (hopefully) someone can explain the situation better than me. You can also read the delisting argument here, where experienced GA reviewers insisted that the article was written too "in-universe" and little has changed since then. Actually, that is the second delisting argument, as it has been delisted twice. I can't seem to find the original discussion, but it was a different group of people saying the same thing. For example, the major problem is saying that he won a championship or a match...when in reality he did neither. He was just playing the part. It is more accurate to say that "he was booked to win a title or match", which is what it says in the article examples I provided for you. Moreover, it is essential to note that feuds are not because two wrestlers don't like each other, but it is just an angle or storyline. While you did provide a few examples of where reality is differentiated from fiction in the article, the majority of the article is still "in-universe". It has to be 100% clear that he is a character acting from a script, where titles and matches are not won or lost per talent, but because someone scripted it that way. The last example I can give you is for Kurt Angle, whose article is currently under GA review. I had to take the article "out-of-universe" so the article could pass. You can see how I did that here Nikki311 19:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I read the Kurt Angle revision and I believe I understand what you're going for, though I still fail to see how it goes under in-universe. I think perhaps there needs to be a modification of the tag or in-fiction writing style as far as pro-wrestling, but that can be dealt with later. My apologies for any hostility, as I thought we were referring to The Undertaker character itself as being more in-universe than others which I disagreed with as his "supernatural powers" are covered well. I'll bear this kind of writing in mind when making future edits to this and other WP:PW articles. Enhanceddownloadbird 20:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. :) I'm sorry I didn't explain myself better the first time. I agree that a different tag may be more appropriate for professional wrestling articles. Perhaps one that says something like This article fails to differentiate between real life and kayfabe or something to that effect. However, the in-universe tag is the closest thing we have at the moment. Good luck in your future editing. Nikki311 21:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I have gone through the article section by section and edited it in a similar way to what I saw in Kurt Angle's article and I believe the problem has been dealt with, though any more help with any problems that anyone may see would be wonderful. I am thus removing the tag. A full set of edits is available to see here. Enhanceddownloadbird 04:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Great job! Nikki311 04:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup/in-universe 

message: Taker was born on March 24, 1962 (not 1965). Taker himself has stated this in his own magazine special (early 2003), and in many interviews over the years. Could someone please correct this error?Brennaf 04:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The IMDB is not a reliable source as anybody can edit it. I do, however, agree that his graduation date is not a good source either. My best friend graduated at age 17, my mom graduated when she was 16, I graduated at 18, and I have another friend who graduated at 19. The best bet is an interview where he says his age or a published book source. If you can find either of those, the date can be changed. Nikki311 19:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Undertaker's real age