Talk:Mardi Gras in Mobile, Alabama

message: 19-February-2007: I have thrown this article together in a few hours, as some sort of documented information about Mardi Gras, with reliable source footnotes.  I apologize for the haphazard appearance, but I had only a few hours to document the extensive research and combine the information.  A book could be written.... -Wikid77 16:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have expanded the article, double in size, to include "Legal restrictions" such as on noise, masks/gloves or fireworks, and began a long section about "Mystic societies" to broaden the scope, adding reliable source footnotes.  Again, it has been a rush job, but at least there are many citations on facts.  -Wikid77 21:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stub with sources 

message: 19-February-2007: There are few pictures of Mobile in the article, yet. I hope to add more soon.  -Wikid77 16:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added an image similar to the Mobile Mardi Gras flag.  However, photographs from Mobile parades would be good to have, as well, being sure to keep faces private.  -Wikid77 21:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  24-March-2007: Near the new parade photos, I have re-added the Mardi-Gras flag-style image, removed as "redundant" in this article which did not exist 5 weeks ago after 305 years of Mobile history.  Several images have been moved to Wikimedia Commons to avoid auto-deletion by Wiki-psycho bots trying to save 4 or 50 kilobytes (when many 5-megabyte blurred photos exist: "too mank kooks spoil the broth").  In fact, 4 small images in the "Mardi Gras in Mobile" article had been axed twice (the world is chock-full of, even registered users); those images were re-added, as placeholders with other linked images.  It has been a battle to keep/expand the article illustrations (more at: WP:vandal/psychosis).  -Wikid77 07:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: 24-February-2007: As a popular topic, information about Mardi Gras in Mobile (or festivals in general) might slide into unsourced, folksy, slang writing.  This article began as a formal, sourced, encyclopedic document and should be checked for adherence to Wikipedia rules for writing articles.  There are other festival articles full of anecdotal notions, so it is understandable that some would also treat this article in a similar manner, or as a trendy insider's tips to Mardi Gras.  While it is fine to add some unsourced information, any folksy/slang phrases should be reworded immediately, and references should be added within a few days of adding text.  Questionable, unsourced phrases should be tagged with "" and then, if they are not defended with source notes after a few days, those phrases should be deleted, only re-adding at a later time with reliable sources. Also see: Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout.  -Wikid77 15:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced slang 

message: : (Post untitled issues is this section.  -Wikid77 20:21, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other issues 

message: :Image:Doubloon.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 01:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Doubloon.jpg

message: I did a little clean-up per WP:MOS and removed the repetitive photos as per WP:MOS as  they detract from the text rather than enhance it in my opinion.  I would suggest a gallery instead of so many images imbedded in the text.  There were two references (formerly ref name=wNOLA/  & ref name=F2007mon/) which only included the ref name=EXAMPLE code only and no reference text, making me wonder if they were possibly cut and pasted from another article without the original references?  Maybe New Orleans Mardi Gras?  Since they did not actually reference anything I removed them for clarity.  Their prior locations do need references.  As a Mobilian, I'm just trying to make this a better article, no intent to offend anyone.  Altairisfar 06:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * Photos preferred in text not galleries: Actually, the accepted practice avoids galleries, and prefers to "illustrate" the text, along the way, with related photos. Meanwhile, Wikimedia Commons is structured to show image-gallery collections, so that would be the place to have a page structured with many photos in a gallery. Instead, the article should convey the Mardi Gras activities, and parades along balcony-lined streets, with the seasonal open-air decorations, with more photos. -Wikid77 20:16, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

text: Still needs more clean-up.  There is too much material about New Orleans Mardi Gras - once the point has been made that Mobile's was first, it's distracting to have such material.  It should be moved or deleted, and only be in article on New Orleans' celebration.--Parkwells (talk) 12:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs more clean-up

message: 14-Nov-2007: I have restored the images that seemed repetitive: they are similar to others, but also, they function as placeholders for future images to replace them, providing more diversity.  To a Mobilian, the images might seem excessive; however, remember that to an outsider, all this is probably quite new.  With the popularity of YouTube, the trend to add more visual style, rather than less, is the way of the future.  Several wiki pages link to video clips as well as showing images.  There is much to illustrate: the article doesn't even show the location of Mobile, in relative terms, while a map noting the distance between both Mobile & New Orleans should probably be added. Many more images would be an improvement, but also as America's oldest Mardi Gras (roughly 100 years longer than New Orleans), more historical text is needed, with extra reliable sources.  Also, the Spanish period needs more coverage, IMHO.  -Wikid77 23:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Needs more images and text

message: 28-Dec-2007: Over the past 10 months of creating/expanding this article, I must emphasize that the subject is basically about partying and, as might be expected, the source documents contain many misspelled words.  I have noticed the following particular spellings:
* La Louisiane - For 10 months in the article, the spelling had been "Louisianne" yet French websites show "La Louisiane" as the state name, with the old colony now given the French title "La Louisiane français" (with lowercase "f");
* Cowbellion - A few sources show "Cowbellian" while 90% use the "o" ending as "Cowbellion de Rakin Society"; Google also says, "Did you mean Cowbellion?"
* Michael Krafft - A few sources show one "f" as "Kraft" but many sources use the double-f as "Krafft" which seems reasonable as a Dutch name.
* Strikers Independent Society - A few sources use the apostrophe "Striker's" while most sources have shown "Strikers" all year.
Again, the subject of Mardi Gras is basically about partying, so I haven't been too concerned about the spellings all year. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling from sources

message: 28-Dec-2007: When I first created the article, I noted that "a book could be written" spanning the 300-year history.  I had hoped more people would expand sub-articles, but it didn't happen.  Now I clearly realize that, in 2007, Wikipedia was written by relatively tiny "skeleton crews" of volunteers, so it will take a special effort to expand Mobile's mystic societies into sub-articles, to reduce the size of the main article ("Mardi Gras in Mobile").  I obviously had only limited hours all year to deal with the many thousands of articles I modified.
Only just today, I noticed that back in February 2007, I dated the talk-topics as "2006" which is quite indicative of how little time we've had to improve Wikipedia (or re-read to correct our own discussions).  I see wiki-burnout as mainly caused by some people's severe attitudes towards others.  One desperate editor even replied to me about being surprised to receive a "pleasant" user-talk message, having become mortified when seeing "You have new messages" and dreading the typical contents.  Belligerent editors are a real problem, and people must curb their tongues, while others prepare to face opinions and vitriol of the barbaric savages out there in the real world.  It is important to develop coping skills to deflect the growing anger (and remember, "A gentleman never loses his temper with the servants").  Also, stand strong against "wiki-terrorism" with people deliberately trolling and hacking articles to perpetuate the "Wikpedia is a total joke" perceptions of the broader public.  Have strength to keep creating new articles, as warranted. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * Now I have corrected the 5 dates in the topics above that referred to the wrong day or wrong year ("2006" fixed as "2007"). -Wikid77 (talk) 11:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Massive article now

message: == POV comparison w/ New Orleans ==
The suggestions that N.O. Mardi Gras is quintessentially "bawdy" while Mobile Mardi Gras is somehow more wholesome family fun seems suspiciously like POV rather than fact. This characterization is also not completely cited, and the partial "citation" bares several problems: (1) what is actually cited is only that Mobile's Mardi Gras "include family-oriented activities, silly fun, and revelry", not that this in any way makes it distinct from New Orleans; (2) the N.O. Mardi Gras article shows that, for much of N.O. Mardi Gras is indeed a family-oriented celebration rather than something inherently lewd; (3) the website for the citation is none other than the Mobile Area Chamber of Commerce, hardly an impartial source if we are trying to establish a comparison of character between the Mardi Gras celebrations in these two cities; (4) the linked website doesn't directly support the cited statement itself, at least not directly; (5) the cited website certainly does not make any attempt to distinguish Mobile Mardi Gras from N.O. Mardi Gras in any way other than its claim that Mobile's is slightly older--it does NOT make any characterization that N.O.'s festival is somehow inherently "bawdy" while it's own is inherently innocent; (6) even if it DID make such accusations, these would hardly be substantial or impartial facts, given problem number 3 and given that such a statement would by its very nature be POV or a marketing tactic. 
Furthermore, the section comparing the two Mardi Gras directly contains no citations at all, I suppose merely assuming it to be common knowledge. While it may be common knowledge that the French Quarter in N.O. is the site of some lewd behavior during N.O. Mardi Gras, this is arguably more of a public perception than a fact. Regardless, the occurrence of such behavior in Mobile is not well known nationally, and therefore is in no way common knowledge. Lastly, the section itself, like the N.O. article, admits that much of the N.O. celebrations are geared toward family-oriented events. 
So, given all that, I am removing the offending distinctions entirely until someone can either fully and appropriately cite such claims and reword them in such a way as to make it obvious that the statements are POV claims (supported by the citation), not indisputable facts. I would also argue that such an obviously controversial topic as comparing the characters of these two city's Mardi Gras activities should be handled in a more delicate, more thorough manner. As it stands, the distinction seems unfair, unsubstantiated, and inappropriate. It is also poorly constructed. In my opinion this should be left alone altogether if it cannot be approached properly, because these subtle distinctions are not only inherently open to opinion and subjective values, but are directly making the implicit and explicit claim that the two celebrations have observably generally distinct characters, with N.O. being "bawdy" debauchery and Mobile's being "silly fun". Obviously, among the controversies (city rivalry, personal POV, subjective values, etc) is that this potentially plays into the old stereotype of New Orleans  being a city of vice and immorality. Unless all these controversies can be handled with care, better to not even deal with them and stick to verifiable facts. 
74.74.102.247 (talk) 15:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Topics from 2008

message: The suggestions that N.O. Mardi Gras is quintessentially "bawdy" while Mobile Mardi Gras is somehow more wholesome family fun seems suspiciously like POV rather than fact. This characterization is also not completely cited, and the partial "citation" bares several problems: (1) what is actually cited is only that Mobile's Mardi Gras "include family-oriented activities, silly fun, and revelry", not that this in any way makes it distinct from New Orleans; (2) the N.O. Mardi Gras article shows that, for much of N.O. Mardi Gras is indeed a family-oriented celebration rather than something inherently lewd; (3) the website for the citation is none other than the Mobile Area Chamber of Commerce, hardly an impartial source if we are trying to establish a comparison of character between the Mardi Gras celebrations in these two cities; (4) the linked website doesn't directly support the cited statement itself, at least not directly; (5) the cited website certainly does not make any attempt to distinguish Mobile Mardi Gras from N.O. Mardi Gras in any way other than its claim that Mobile's is slightly older--it does NOT make any characterization that N.O.'s festival is somehow inherently "bawdy" while it's own is inherently innocent; (6) even if it DID make such accusations, these would hardly be substantial or impartial facts, given problem number 3 and given that such a statement would by its very nature be POV or a marketing tactic. 
Furthermore, the section comparing the two Mardi Gras directly contains no citations at all, I suppose merely assuming it to be common knowledge. While it may be common knowledge that the French Quarter in N.O. is the site of some lewd behavior during N.O. Mardi Gras, this is arguably more of a public perception than a fact. Regardless, the occurrence of such behavior in Mobile is not well known nationally, and therefore is in no way common knowledge. Lastly, the section itself, like the N.O. article, admits that much of the N.O. celebrations are geared toward family-oriented events. 
So, given all that, I am removing the offending distinctions entirely until someone can either fully and appropriately cite such claims and reword them in such a way as to make it obvious that the statements are POV claims (supported by the citation), not indisputable facts. I would also argue that such an obviously controversial topic as comparing the characters of these two city's Mardi Gras activities should be handled in a more delicate, more thorough manner. As it stands, the distinction seems unfair, unsubstantiated, and inappropriate. It is also poorly constructed. In my opinion this should be left alone altogether if it cannot be approached properly, because these subtle distinctions are not only inherently open to opinion and subjective values, but are directly making the implicit and explicit claim that the two celebrations have observably generally distinct characters, with N.O. being "bawdy" debauchery and Mobile's being "silly fun". Obviously, among the controversies (city rivalry, personal POV, subjective values, etc) is that this potentially plays into the old stereotype of New Orleans  being a city of vice and immorality. Unless all these controversies can be handled with care, better to not even deal with them and stick to verifiable facts. 
74.74.102.247 (talk) 15:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV comparison w/ New Orleans 

message: 20-Sep-2008: I have added subheaders above as "Topics from 2007" (etc.) to emphasize the dates of topics in the talk-page. Older topics might still apply, but using the year headers helps to focus on more current issues as well. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Retrofit topic year headers

message: ==External link - EncyclopediaofAlabama.org==
Hello, there is an article here, http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1437,  and a link here, http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Galleries.jsp?id=e-137, that might be useful. 
Thanks, 
Justin --Duboiju (talk) 16:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Topics 2009-2014

message: Hello, there is an article here, http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1437,  and a link here, http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Galleries.jsp?id=e-137, that might be useful. 
Thanks, 
Justin --Duboiju (talk) 16:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: External link - EncyclopediaofAlabama.org

message: Editors fond of Mobile Mardi Gras have provided many details about the parades and events, but perhaps that has led to excesses - does there have to be so many subheaders on varieties of throws?  The bead section itemizes each Asian country where plastic beads have been manufactured - why should we care?  There are many details but little overall view - how many people parade? how much money does the season generate? obviously many businesses are geared solely to Mardi Gras, so it's a big deal.  Article needs more attention and sourcing.--Parkwells (talk) 14:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Undue weight

message: My impression from this article that French Creoles celebrated Mardi Gras (and Carnival in general) early in the 18th century, then the tradition gradually faded out, and it was essentially defunct by the time it was revived (or reinvented) by Anglos in the mid-19th century. Is that accurate?Sylvain1972 (talk) 17:36, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuous? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Mardi Gras in Mobile, Alabama. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101124195528/http://www.mardigrasdigest.com/html/mardi_gras_history__timeline.htm to http://www.mardigrasdigest.com/html/mardi_gras_history__timeline.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified