Talk:Non-standard cosmology

message: I wonder if there could be a better way to present this material.  @OwenX 
"Non-standard" is literally negative ("not-standard"), and I think most non-scientist readers will assume that this label is equal to fringe. However we have no theory that explains the finding which lead to the hypothesis of dark matter, including ΛCDM. The 'standard' is just the most conservative one; the alternatives are not necessarily fringe. The article Non-standard cosmology is a hodge-podge of things which necessarily will be incoherent (to be sure it is less incoherent than many articles!). 
But what would be better? I think the "Alternatives to XX" approach is more neutral and already in use for Alternatives to general relativity and it is used in the section names here. This immediate points to an issue with this article: one of the sections is "Alternatives and extensions to Lambda-CDM" but Lambda-CDM is supposed to the Standard Cosmology, so that non-standard cosmology would be "Alternatives and extensions to Lambda-CDM" right? Furthermore, Lambda-CDM is described as the mathematical model for the Big Bang theory so are these two things or one thing? Are the alternatives two things or not?
So perhaps breaking out "Alternatives to Big Bang theory" and "Alternatives to Lambda-CDM" and summarizing them here would allow this article to better explain the interconnections between these subjects. Then this article would be "Alternative cosmologies" Johnjbarton (talk) 01:25, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm fine with renaming this page to "Alternatives to Lambda-CDM" or "Alternatives to standard cosmology". Dark_energy#Other_mechanism_driving_acceleration also has some relevant content which may benefit from a "See also" to here. Of course, we'll have to do this all over again once astrophysicists come up with a better model that doesn't require as many fudge factors and cheat days, or in our case, cheat 10−32 seconds... Owen× ☎ 12:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

text: I don't really see the problem with "non-standard". It's about ideas that, well, aren't standard. If anything, "Alternatives to..." sounds a bit too positive; it carries the suggestion that the "alternatives" are all viable, which not all of them are. XOR'easter (talk) 17:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Echoing this: Non-standard cosmologies are mostly not viable, that's why they're not the standard model. This has been a dumping-ground for a bunch of fringe stuff (I forgot that the sections on redshift periodicity and plasma cosmology was so long: that should be drastically trimmed), which is unfortunate, and probably wouldn't be fixed by renaming it to "Alternatives", unless you plan to just remove all the fringe stuff with that rename? - Parejkoj (talk) 18:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

text: Not all non-viable alternatives are notable, but some are, for historical, approximate, or pedological reasons, eg Newton's law of universal gravitation ;-) Plus (briefly) discussing the reasons for non-viable theories is itself helpful in clarifying what makes a successful theory. So I think the viability issue can be dealt with. Johnjbarton (talk) 19:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't object to covering the empirically disfavored theories; as you say, they can be of historical interest or have other aspects that make them noteworthy. But if we're going to have both the disproved and the respectable-but-niche ideas all in the same page, I'm inclined to "non-standard" more than I am to "alternative". Of course, that's just my sense of the connotations. XOR'easter (talk) 20:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

text: That wording just hides the negation. Logically, it is still there because "alternative to X" implies "is not X". --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:37, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative organizations 

message: As far as I can tell the section "Exotic dark matter" is a repeat of Dark matter. Furthermore, dark matter is already "exotic matter" so "exotic dark matter" is not a thing. The section appearing here under alternatives to Lambda-CDM is confusing: the content is not an alternative at all. Johnjbarton (talk) 16:59, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It certainly is not. Self-interacting dark matter, warm dark matter, and fuzzy dark matter are all not standard (remember that standard dark matter is CDM, that's why it's Lambda-CDM). If anything we should delete the MACHO sentence (which would indeed behave like CDM), but to be honest I inserted because you inserted it first. Banedon (talk) 02:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The entire first paragraph discusses lambda-CDM. Johnjbarton (talk) 03:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

text: I'm fine with removing MACHOs from exotic dark matter, but now they are not mentioned in the entire article and yet they were/are-ish one of the alternatives. Seems out of whack to mention some stuff barely study and not MACHO. Johnjbarton (talk) 03:34, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: So is this supposed to be the dark matter article or the exotic dark matter section in non-standard cosmology? I don't get it. You seem to be both saying that MACHOs should be included, and saying that if we include MACHOs, we should delete the section, thereby removing MACHOs. Banedon (talk) 09:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is my complaint: the section is unclear. I'll just do an edit and let you look, maybe that will be clearer. Johnjbarton (talk) 16:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to delete the section "Exotic dark matter" 

message: Seems recent studies suggest that Dark Energy thinking is seriously "Flawed" - or that Dark Energy doesn't even exist at all - if interested, my related pubished NYT comments may be relevant - in any case - Worth adding to the main "Dark Energy Spectroscopic Instrument" article - or Not? - Comments Welcome - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 16:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Advertising the discussion on multiple talk pages is ok, but it would be better to keep the discussion itself on a single page; I suggest WT:PHYS#Dark Energy is Flawed or Nonexistent? since it usually gathers the largest audience of interested editors. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 17:13, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Dark energy|Dark Energy is Flawed or Nonexistent?]]