Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sydney/Railway stations

message: I've been looking at some of the 180-odd articles on railway stations in Sydney. I recognise that these form part of a 5000-article universe of railway stations with their own pages. But I think that most of them are non-notable. Another user has set out draft guidelines on the notability of rail infrastructure, helpfully titled Wikipedia is not a timetable, which can be viewed here and here. I think they deserve serious consideration.
My concerns about the Sydney station articles are as follows:
*Some stations (even in metropolitan Sydney) are not, and never will be, notable (e.g., Engadine)
*Some stations are arguably notable, but their articles lack information that speaks to that notability (e.g., Newtown)
*Many station articles appear to be based on original research (e.g., Campbelltown)
*Virtually all Sydney station articles contain information better suited to a rail enthusiasts' site, of which there are many.
I would suggest that articles on Sydney railway stations only be included if they can be substantially based on information sourced from credible printed-matter sources—not CityRail, not railway fan websites and certainly not personal observations. If a station can meet this criteria, then detail from other sources could be added. Any other information can go on the railway line pages.
We can argue all day about notability. It's my plan to spend substantial portions of my day doing exactly that. But User:Mangoe makes a compelling call for self-regulation: "If we create serious and brilliant articles then more editors will be encouraged to create more and more such articles. If we create trivia then more and more editors will be encouraged to create more and more trivia." Joestella 02:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I've told you before, there is a long-standing precedent on Wikipedia that all railway stations are inherently notable. You may think that Engadine is not notable - many people disagree with you, which is why no railway station has, that I can remember, been deleted since at least 2003. If you disagree, there is the option of nominating articles for deletion, but I and others will vigorously fight any such move, and there is no excuse for trying to enforce your own personal opinions via the back door, as you seem to be trying to do here. Rebecca 02:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Remember to assume good faith, Rebecca. Rather than nominating dozens, or hundreds, of articles for deletion, I'm simply encouraging discussion. So far, you have not engaged with any of my (I would think reasonable) concerns. Given that no-one could seriously claim that Allandale railway station, New South Wales is notable, there is a legitimate question of where to draw the line. Joestella 03:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  As I wrote on your user page, I think the difference between railway stations and everything that has a notability criterion (people, companies, bands, etc.), is that info on railway stations can be verified, unlike those other entities. I write that I'm a deletionist on my user page, but I see no compelling reason why we need interrupt Wikipedia in such a way - gutting the place of all small train station articles will be quite difficult and achieve nothing, and will confuse editors trying to decide where to put information. Currently, an advantage of having articles on train lines, train stations and train networks separately, is that it covers each level consistently. If you object to unverified information, delete the information, but leave the article. Although I wouldn't phrase it in the same way as Rebecca did, I think this is the wrong place to have this discussion - this has far wider implications than WikiProject Sydney. enochlau (talk) 23:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  And I'm interested in hearing your opinion of why Cityrail material isn't credible - it's like saying we can't get information about a company from the company's website. enochlau (talk) 23:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

text: If you read WP:NOR, it doesn't exclude the possibility of say, taking a photograph of the station, and then describing the configuration, as seen in that photograph. That's not original research or original theories - compare it with, hypothetically, a paragraph on the supposed fung shui of Panania railway station's staircase alignment. enochlau (talk) 23:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good point. In general, this isn't being done, though. Joestella 03:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

text: It also says that photos are a primary source and secondary sources are generally preferred. Any interpretation of primary sources requires a secondary source.Garrie 05:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability of railway stations

message: We have moved on four years since then with no action having been taken on this since 2015.
The maintenance of this information is a big workload and there are very few editors who are now involved except for the odd few who maintain information in their local stations. Now the NSW Transport Info website is starting to expand the information for each stations where we are now starting to purely duplicate what is in their website.
Last week two existing Epping railway station and Chatswood railway station and a number of new stations were changed to provide all the information through one or two links. In the case of Epping there are  which provides a list of all services which connect at that station together with links to the timetables for the services concerned and  which provides a map showing the stands from which all bus services depart and the routes for the routes concerned. So we now just duplicating information which is not what we intended to be doing and strengthens the argument that we should not be a travel guide. In the case of new station Rouse Hill railway station which has a considerable number of bus routes I have added a Transport link section with purely links to these items. Some new station with a small number of bus routes only have the first of these items to be linked to. It is proposed that from now where stations have both links, they be chnaged to the Rouse Hill format and where only one link, as has been done for Cherrybrook railway station. And that Epping and Chatswood be changed as a first step. Also seeTalk:Rouse_Hill_railway_station#Transport_Links. to which I posted a few days ago but forgot to add a signature at the time.
Looking forward to any comments.Fleet Lists (talk) 09:04, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologise for not replying to your initial call for comment at Talk:Rouse Hill railway station. However, I'm glad that this is being brought up on a more general forum, rather than on an article talk page. I'll keep it short and sweet – I am all in favour of a shorter, more concise prose description of interchange services instead of a long list of bus routes that are simply not notable. After all, Wikipedia is not a travel guide. Our articles on our notable railway stations, ferry wharves, light rail stops, and bus stops should be written as an encyclopedic description of the stop, preferably describing its history, characteristics, and other notable facts. Stuffing the article with a list of TFNSW routes unnecessarily bloats it. In my opinion, there should ideally be a single "Services" section with a prose summary of services and operators – with intermodal interchanges included in some sort of distinct manner, such as a paragraph break. Better use of native  citations should also be encouraged as well. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 11:22, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank You for that. Since I wrote the above some further comments along similar lines have been received at Talk:Rouse Hill railway station, as a result of which some more changes have been made at both Rouse Hill railway station and Cherrybrook railway station. Cutting the information certainly seems to be the way to go.Fleet Lists (talk) 11:35, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

text: I agree that we do not need an extensive list of bus routes per station. It is too tedious to update it every time there is a timetable change. Just in April, I had to update stations that interchange with former M40, M41 and M54 to the new route numbers and it was not easy. I was looking at the 2015 discussion and I think Sample 1 would be the most suitable. Marcnut1996 (talk) 11:40, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have updated Pymble railway station which I had modified as a trial a few weeks for stations which had the link information removed and also Lindfield railway station which was suggested above and which also had the link information removed some time ago. The format is somewhat different from Sample 1 above as discussed in Talk:Rouse Hill railway station. If this is OK, I will also do other  stations which had the Link information removed except some like Liverpool for which the information is missing from the Transport Info website - I have taken that up with them.Fleet Lists (talk) 23:53, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This has now been done for all new Metro stations with Tallawong railway station the last done where i made it consistent with the other stations slightly different to what was done last night. I had no objections to those differences but if we adopt them this article will also need updating to reflect that as I had already updated it to show the format I was using. Tomorrow I propose to start on the existing Metro station which mat receive some opposition when people see the lists of stations removed.Fleet Lists (talk) 06:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  It would be great to have one "Services" section as I had stated my preference for in my previous reply. Now that we've agreed on having prose passages about connecting services, it would also not make sense to have an entirely different section, or subsection, for what will be one or two sentences of information. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 07:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for raising that issue. I would be happy to go along with that. As the next step I will amend the article itself along those lines and then update the eight new Metro Stations and the other two stations I have already done before continuing any further.Fleet Lists (talk) 07:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just noticed that you have since removed the website from the Infobox inTallawong railway station - this is something which has been in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sydney/Railway_stations&oldid=653964480 since 2015 and is present in every railway station in New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland and probably in most other station articles. I dont necessarily agree with removing that from every NSW station.Fleet Lists (talk) 08:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I guess I have two questions. What exactly does an external link summarise about an article, and why do you believe a website link is unequivocally important for readers with a casual interest in transport? The prupose of an infobox is to "". Some station articles are dwarfed by their infoboxes (e.g. , ) and if infoboxes were being used properly, it wouldn't be happening. Actions need to be taken to refocus the infobox for its intended purpose to summarise the most important, essential information about an article. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 08:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have recombined the services and transport links for Tallawong railway station as a trial and have omitted the website from the Infobox. I have no strong feeling either way about the website except that it seems to be used worldwide, which I agree does not necessarily make it right. Unless you have any further comments I will go ahead and do the other stations like that after updating the description article. I also like the external diagram option which applies here but you commented on in another reply on your talk pageUser_talk:PhilipTerryGraham. I was working on some Victorian stations on the weekend where someone had made a real mess by changing what he thought was going to happen in 2025 with details which he just seemed to have made up and repeated it in umpteen stations. But the point is that Infoboxes there seem to be used for full details for instance Sunbury railway line.Fleet Lists (talk) 09:09, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we can agree that the "Services" cell in Sunbury railway line's infobox is incredibly poor. There's so much information needlessly stuffed into the one cell that it might as well be its own prose section. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 09:46, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Which I have now changed to see what sort of reaction I get - there are plenty of others which need to be looked at.Fleet Lists (talk) 10:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: 2019