Talk:Highgate Vampire

message: Note: Prior to July 2006, the contributors to this talk page deleted all text from it several times instead of archiving it. Earlier discussions can only be found in the page history.--91.148.159.4 12:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: June 2007

message: Would make sense to have a map of the cemetery, as it would be a great help for those who don't know the area.
I have heard from someone who claims to have been involved in SOME of the activities going on in  Highgate in the early 1970s. They says that a group of them ended up direly drunk, and got the idea of trying to talk to the spirit of Karl Marx, using his tombstone for the focus of attention (so no desecration intended, nor done), and that everything got out of hand, and gathered a life of it's own when they were spotted/misidentified/beat a hasty retreat. (Other groups might have tried this earlier, or done other stuff.) If it seems a reasonable explaination for part of what happened then perhaps it should be writen up, and have links to, Tulpa, Necromancy, and Karl Marx.
Steve10345 (talk) 02:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  should there by a see-also section ?

message: There is a strange link to a website about the "Copeland paranormal investigation" and a sentence fragment about an empty tomb under the section "Mass vampire hunt."
The website is riddled with spelling errors and poor grammar, and does not seem like a very reliable source, and indeed it is very difficult to tell what relevance it has for this article, as it is not a website about the Highgate "vampire." As such I am removing both the link and the sentence fragment "Discovered empty tomb of the Copeland family." This is all it says, and it has no logical connection to the previous sentence.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.170.16 (talk) 21:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spurious Copeland link and sentence fragment. 

message: Can this be verified as being relevanton this page?
Seems a little "tenuous" including a link to a band using material from any such film... Of course if there's an interview, or such like, detailing how/why they were inspired by the story it might be a different story.
NB Previous poster on talk page (79.138.170.16) didn't sign with tides etc.  is that normal?
steve10345 (talk) 01:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asa Bailey Film

message: Please note that Fred Vargas wrota a book called 'Un lieu incertain', which starts in Higegate cementry and is partially inspired by the Highgate vampire story! The book was a bestseller, at least in France and Italy. Can someone add something?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.63.166.91 (talk) 17:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Fred Vargas' book 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It appears that this article has been constructed by a variety of individuals who have made claims about this topic over the years. None of these are reliable secondary sources, and we're deep in fringe territory here. There's a simple solution: I'll take a look at the work of folklorists who have written about this and simply rewrite the article from scratch. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:56, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I would rather you relied on the press, as this was really a media thing (a silly season page filler).Slatersteven (talk) 09:01, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would prefer any narrative of events to be sourced to the highest quality academics or folklorists. Such sources would be able to objectively report on the WP:SENSATIONAL press coverage as a factor contributing to the hysteria. The press coverage itself could not do that. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:04, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that from day one this was a media circus, not real folklore.Slatersteven (talk) 12:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Non-academic "media" sources could be used, sparingly, i.e. this but not this. For obvious reasons. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Why?, its not obvious to me, as this is (to me) all the vampire ever was. Tabloid sensationalsi, and what it does is not only demonstrates what the vampire was, but also what it remains. Not some ancient and long told folk tale (as some would like us to believe), but a pice of tabloid silliness that cares less for objective fact then for good copy.Slatersteven (talk) 09:02, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Academic folklorists don't get a lot of publicity, which is probably why most people think of folklore as dealing only with leprechauns and other ancient tales. But it actually encompasses modern UFO lore, cryptids, monsters, urban legends, and digital-age myths like Slenderman. Their academic journals are often hard to access or not fully digitized, etc. which could indicate less than robust funding compared to other disciplines, however they are the recognized expert community for this topic as far as Wikipedia is concerned. I'd like to see what bloodofox turns up for sources that could be used in addition to what we have from Bill Ellis. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:49, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: None of which has anything to do with it. My point is this was a media sensation, and as such the media are a perfectly valid source.Slatersteven (talk) 08:28, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Media sources on topics such as these frequently fall into the category of primary sources, particularly when it comes to moral panics, such as the notorious satanic ritual abuse moral panic throughout the United States and elsewhere. Media sources all too often contribute to the panic, often by way of amplify misinformation or producing misinformation of their own. This material certainly falls under the broad umbrella of folklore. In turn, academic sources are ideal. We're fortunate enough to have material from folklorists from which to draw. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:39, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: And this is irrelevant, yes they may well be primary, but we are not forbidden from using them. As to moral panics, it is not out job to police moral responsibility.
===Reconsidering article scope and its relation to Highgate Cemetery===
After reading folklorist Bill Ellis's "The Highgate Cemetery Vampire Hunt: The Anglo-American Connection in Satanic Cult
Lore" (Folklore, Vol. 104, No. 1/2 (1993), pp. 13-39), I have a few observations:
*Sources: First, following up on discussion above, as Ellis states, journalists fanned the flames of these events and often made for poor sources (for example, "in the mean time, journalists continued to air rumors and beliefs about black magic cults", p. 29, cf. especially p. 31). This is historically typical for this sort of thing.
*Scope: This article's current focus on a purported vampire is misleading. There's significant discussion from informants on the record about ghosts and the undead more generally, not just vampires. None of this is particularly surprising for the topic (graveyard ghostlore and legend tripping). There's also a major Satanic panic element. In turn, this article should more accurately have an increased scope and really should be called something like Highgate Cemetery ghostlore or just Highgate Cemetery folklore—that is, if it continues to exist as a standalone article, see below.
*Move to a dedicated section at Highgate Cemetery: I recommend that we consider rewriting this and bringing it into the Highgate Cemetery. Most of this can be pretty quickly summarized, which I'm doing now.
Whatever the case, if you haven't read Ellis's assessment, I recommend that you do so before adding anything else to this page. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:03, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

text: This only applies to media at the time, not those covering the events years latter. Also The Vampire is the story really, without it this would have been a nothing. There maybe a case for a separate article, but the hightgate vampire is (highly) notable in its on right.08:47, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: What a Mess—Rewrite Necessary

message: After reading folklorist Bill Ellis's "The Highgate Cemetery Vampire Hunt: The Anglo-American Connection in Satanic Cult
Lore" (Folklore, Vol. 104, No. 1/2 (1993), pp. 13-39), I have a few observations:
*Sources: First, following up on discussion above, as Ellis states, journalists fanned the flames of these events and often made for poor sources (for example, "in the mean time, journalists continued to air rumors and beliefs about black magic cults", p. 29, cf. especially p. 31). This is historically typical for this sort of thing.
*Scope: This article's current focus on a purported vampire is misleading. There's significant discussion from informants on the record about ghosts and the undead more generally, not just vampires. None of this is particularly surprising for the topic (graveyard ghostlore and legend tripping). There's also a major Satanic panic element. In turn, this article should more accurately have an increased scope and really should be called something like Highgate Cemetery ghostlore or just Highgate Cemetery folklore—that is, if it continues to exist as a standalone article, see below.
*Move to a dedicated section at Highgate Cemetery: I recommend that we consider rewriting this and bringing it into the Highgate Cemetery. Most of this can be pretty quickly summarized, which I'm doing now.
Whatever the case, if you haven't read Ellis's assessment, I recommend that you do so before adding anything else to this page. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:03, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This only applies to media at the time, not those covering the events years latter. Also The Vampire is the story really, without it this would have been a nothing. There maybe a case for a separate article, but the hightgate vampire is (highly) notable in its on right.08:47, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Reconsidering article scope and its relation to [[Highgate Cemetery]]