Talk:Ukrainian nationalism

message: Riurik, why did you delete the mention of mass murder of Polish civilians conducted by UPA? It was a organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists and the mass murders were conducted as part of UPA's effort to create "Ukraine free from Poles", so that was on-topic for this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by M80 PL (talk • contribs) 22:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I mistakenly thought that while inserting this paragraph, other paragraphs were blanked out so I "fixed" the "blanking."--Riurik(discuss) 05:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Please don't remove referenced material simply because you call it OR. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Plsease do not insert dubious material. No modern academic source considers Rus' princes in any way related to Ukrainian Nationalism. I suggest you take a look at the Wilson's book dedicated to the subject cited at the reference section. If you cannot visit the library, try searching selected pages at google talk. --Irpen 07:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Irpen, please do read up on WP:RS. Encyclopedia of Ukraine is a boa fide encyclopedia. If you have difficulty with the English, please ask, and I will help you. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rus' princes 

message: Now Miyokan,  removes "After the downfall of Kyiv in 1240, Ukraine was under the control of first Lithuania and then the Polish commonwealth until 1648".  How is this dubious and worthy of removal?  This is referenced fact.  The real reason for its deletion is far too obvious. Ostap 17:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, we know that modern Russia was founded in 862, or so says our article. Anyway, it is relevant to the topic. It describes the historic background.  It is not meant to impy anything. If not in the lead, it belongs in the article. And that was hardly a personal attack, it was based on constant removal of referenced information describing Vladimir Zhirinovsky as an ultra-nationalist. Ostap 05:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Neither did Russians exist as national group in 862. This sentence is important, the beginnings of Ukrainian statehood and nation have to be mention as it is an essential part of this idea.--Molobo (talk) 09:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The fragmentation of Eastern-Slav identities into White, Great and Little Russian/Ukrainian have nothing to do with the Kievan period, and implications to that effect are seriously misleading. Yes, it's equally misleading to claim that the idea of "Great Russians" comes from that period, but there at least there is continuity of name there and besides that's an issue for that article. BTW, the statement With the downfall of Kiev to Mongols in 1240, the territory of modern Ukraine was under the control of first Grand Duchy of Lithuania and then the Polish Commonwealth ... is inaccurate, or at least misleading, as no territory (or very little intermittently) of the modern Ukraine fell under Lithuanian control until later, and the southern third of the Ukraine, the non-slavic steppe, never really came under any Lithuanian control. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I fear you are reading too far into this.  I wanted that sentence about PLC in there to give the historic background.  There were not supposed to be any implications of anything. As far as modern Russia being founded in 862, that comes straight out of the infobox on our Russia article. Ostap 20:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I understand the effects of your text may not have been intentional, but you can see from 3 users here that this effect nevertheless took place. :) Have you brought the 862 matter up at the Russia article btw? Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but to no avail.  I re-added the PLC part because previously there was no historic background given at all, which would be confusing to some readers. The discussion about the Rus princes being the guardians of the Ukrainian nation, the part I didn't re-add, was supposed to take place in the section above. Ostap 20:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Ukraine included Novgorod, Moscow, and Smolensk but was not called Ukraine, but Rus'? Very interesting theory. Sorry, we can't use your own theories in Wikipedia. --Irpen 09:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, Irpen, I'm very happy that you find history interesting. If you have difficulty accessing the links about Ukrainian hisory provided, please just leave me a message and I will be happy to help you with that. Also, please see the discussion below about the idea that empire=hegemony. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 09:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  removal 

message: This is an article about nationalism - that is not a violent nor discriminatory nor exclusionist philosophy. However, fascism is. Extremism in any philosophy is not good. However, that is not the focus of this article.
The Wikipedia article about nationalism [] clearly explains this.
Certain education systems, particularly those in communist and some former communist countries, used the terms "nationalism" and "fascism" interchangably. However, the two ideas are very different. Let's keep this article about Nationalism, not extremism. Exclusionist extremism is a minority faith in Ukraine at this time. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 21:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nationalism vs Fascism 

message: A reliable source states that Ukrainian nationalists are currently occupying New Russia.  Should this be included in the lead section, or get its own section? Ostap 23:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I once gave User:Kuban kazak an award For his enthusiasm and dedication to Ukrainian topics and making sure the information about Ukraine on Wikipedia stays balanced. That sort of statments don't sound like him at all. Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please don't take this seriously. At the time he created this "reliable source" he claimed it was in response to me displaying, just like a hundred or so other wikipedians, an icon on my talk page, in seport of the Chechen independence. In fact there is an icon is support of Tibet independence as well, I am not sure who is protesting against that one. I don't usually care what other users display on their user pages, although I am afraid that particular user's page violates a number of policies under WP:USER. Contrary to the above guideline, it offers not only an excessive amount of personal information, but is also used as a propagnda tool complete with a picture of Stalin and an array of anti-Ukrainian jabs like the above mentioned icons and even carefully installed definite articles in front of Ukraine, something that is absent from original articles. Given that only the Ukrainian nationalism gets dedicated opponents, I wouldn't worry about this. Russian nationalists have been getting away with this for ever, so I suggest you just ignore this and move on. --Hillock65 (talk) 00:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current nationalist occupation of New Russia 

message: In the see also section I see a link to All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" a party lead by someone from Russian speaking Dnipropetrovsk and Our Ukraine isn't mentioned while they are the follow-up of Rukh. It could make sense, but doesn't to me... Why is All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" the nationalist pary in Ukraine and not Our Ukraine? I don't live in Ukraine so could mis inside info... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fatherland is one of the mainstream parties and although it includes some notorious figures in its ranks, it is not a cradle of the Ukrainian nationalism. Our Ukraine, also mainstream, is more nationalist without doubt, but still not anywhere near the extreme (as a party, not by some of its members.) If you are looking for the pure nationalist, look for the Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists, Tyahnybok's Svoboda and the less known Patriot of Ukraine that recently raised the demand for the "apologies from the Russians and the Jews" and financial compensation for the Great Famine to be paid by both Russia and Israel(!). You may ask why Jews and Israel? Don't ask me. Ask them --Irpen 01:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, just like I thought. The part about the 3 ultra-nationalist party's is verry interesting! Mariah-Yulia (talk) 01:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree. I wan't realistic articles and Ukraine is a big country so the number of incidents might make things look bigger then the same number of incidents happening in Monaco. Sorry for keeping you busy with my wiki adventures the last day's. I did clean out some my userboxes :) I only kept the ones that explane my edit's. Mariah-Yulia (talk) 02:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland"]]

message: Who determined that the flag in the article the flag of "Ukrainian nationalists"?  Isn't this the flag of Ukrainian nationalists? Ostap 05:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not add this flag to the article but I must say that I've seen it being used by radical organizations at their shows. --Irpen 05:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What kind of radical organizations?  You know, not all nationalists are radicals and not all radicals are nationalists. Radicals are extremists.  Nationalists are people who love their country and are willing to sacrifice for it.  I must say I see no connection whatsoever. Anyway, I support removing the flag from the article, unless it really is recognized by Ukrainian nationalists as their flag, which I doubt it is. Ostap 05:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

text: I never said, though, that all ua-nationalists are like radical skinheads. --Irpen 07:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But is it the flag of UIA? I never belief skinheads :) Mariah-Yulia (talk) 13:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag 

message: What we need to know and cover in the article are the goals and ideologies of Ukrainian national thought.
#-What is its view of Ukrainian nation in Europe, World ?
#-How did they view their future state in the past ?
#-How did they wanted to organise it ?
#-How do they view their history ?
#-What was its attitude to other ideologies ?
Things like that would improve the article.--Molobo (talk) 19:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor article 

message: Should this Fofudja phenomena be mentioned in the article? Mariah-Yulia (talk) 18:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the article says it "has been used lately to make fun of Russian imperialism, xenophobia, antisemitism and religious intolerance". That has nothing to do with Ukrainian nationalism. Ostap 18:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Fofudja]]

message: Are you sure about the 500,000?  That seems far too high.  Compare to the table here: .  Davies is uncited but his number is much lower.  Look at the other cited historians.  500000 seems way to high.  And for these numbers, what is being talked about?  Total deaths or just deaths in certain regions?  Ostap 23:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what Davies wrote in No Simple Victory, I did not come up with this number, although I myself think it is exaggerated, most sources put the number of Polish victims of Ukrainian nationalists at around 80 000. I will check the book asap and I will provide exact quotation and the page number. Tymek (talk) 15:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Norman Davies 

message: I think this subject should also be touched in the article. It is commonly known that persons directly or indirectly responsible for mass murders of Poles, Jews and other national minorities of current Western Ukraine are praised there as heroes, with monuments being unveiled there almost every month. Princeton University Press published an interesting book on it, by Omer Bartov: 
* He bears witness to the hastily erected monuments following Ukraine's independence in 1991, memorials that glorify leaders who collaborated with the Nazis in the murder of Jews. He finds that the newly independent Ukraine-with its ethnically cleansed and deeply anti-Semitic population--has recreated its past by suppressing all memory of its victims.
* This poignant travelogue reveals the complete erasure of the Jews and their removal from public memory, a blatant act of forgetting done in the service of a fiercely aggressive Ukrainian nationalism.
*The result is that the Soviet falsifications of history have been replaced by a Ukrainian nationalist version that glorifies the exploits of the UNR, the OUN-UPA, and the SS Galizian Division. Leaving aside questions of historical accuracy, such works are considered controversial and even offensive to many in Ukraine - wrote Taras Kuzio and Paul D'Anieri in Dilemmas of state-led nation building in Ukraine. 
:Let us also not forget the 1940s reality in Western Ukraine. Murdered were not only minorities, but also those Ukrainians who disagreed with policies of the UPA. There are several accounts of this, with names and dates. Tymek (talk) 16:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Which book of his are you referring to? I'd like to read it or at least skim through it. Sergivs-en (talk) 10:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glorification of Ukrainian nationalists in Western Ukraine 

message: As it stands this entry is not about "Ukrainian Nationalism." It simply provides a bad natinalist account of Ukrainian history. 
"Nationalism" is a theory that argues ethnic and political borders must coincide. An entry dealing with this must explain when this theory first arrived in Ukrainian lands, who were its proponents and opponents. It must list major theoretical works as well as describe how the ideas were disseminated. It must also deal with government reactions to attempts to "nationalize" the populace.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.49.145 (talk) 13:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As true in 2022 as it was eleven years ago. Presumably, that means this article has been deemed sacrosanct by...er, certain agencies. 174.95.58.51 (talk) 22:05, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Here we are in 2024 and the same situation applies to this article. It is a cobbled together story from multiple different nationalities, cultures and histories wrapped up as being Ukranian. There are even whole sections with no references including the whole Interwar period in Soviet Ukraine. Another example of how Wikipedia does a dis-service to history sometimes. 2403:4800:2518:5E36:6D45:B97B:D18:2D31 (talk) 09:14, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  CALL FOR REVISION! 

message: This entire entry must be redone. As it stands this is simply a bad nationalist account of Ukrainian history, not a decription of Ukrainian nationalism.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.49.130 (talk) 18:51, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  NONSENSE 

message: Obviously, this is a touchy subject for many people with very different opinions. Like many others, I think the entire article has a nationalist bias and is very poorly written. But I specifically want to discuss these sentences:
Some even collaborated with Nazi administration and military units. However, the German treatment of the local population quickly put an end to this.[10]
First of all, I believe this is a gross oversimplification, which is an insult to the memory of many people that suffered and died. 
Second, the reference is to the article "Ukraine" on encyclopedia.com. I can't see anything relevant there.
Sergivs-en (talk) 09:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, this article needs a lot of work.... It does not give a complete picture indeed. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  WWII 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Ukrainian nationalism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "DATA":
From All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda": Всеукраїнське об'єднання «Свобода», Database ASD
From Ukrainian Republican Party:  Українська республіканська партія „Собор“, Database DATA
From Communist Party of Ukraine:  Комуністична партія України, Database DATA
From Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self Defence:  Українська національна Ассамблея, Database DATA
From Ukrainian People's Party:  Українська Народна Партія, Database DATA
From Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists:  Конгресс Українських Націоналістів, Database DATA
From For United Ukraine:  Політична партія „Трудова Україна“, Database DATA
From Ukrainian Peasant Democratic Party:  Українська селянська демократична партія, DATA
From Republican Christian Party:  Республіканська Християнська партія, Database DATA
From People's Movement of Ukraine:  Народний Рух України, Database DATA
From Social Democratic Party of Ukraine (united):  Соціал-демократична партія України (об'єднана), Database DATA
From Communist Party of Workers and Peasants:  Комуністична партія робітників і селян,
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 15:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: My bad; but I just fixed this problem. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Ukrainian nationalism]] 

message: RfC at Right Sector:
“Should the article say in the lead that the group (or that some of its subgroups’ members) are neofascist or neo-Nazi, without citing a minimum of 3 top-quality sources?” --Dervorguilla (talk) 06:34, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice of RfC at Right Sector 

message: The content is WP:POV-pushing, and the editors involved in pushing this content ought to consider that this will be WP:UNDUE once WP:RS is introduced in order to provide the context for the voting against the Russia-proposed resolution: i.e., United Nations breakdown of discussions by delegates, as well as the fact that 55 nations abstained; Why Canada Voted Against Resolution At UN To Combat 'Glorification Of Nazism'.
Herzen and Bdell555, you're both unable to find reliable secondary resources supporting your addition to the content so are, instead, resorting to using primary sources for WP:CHERRYpicking. If I were feeling generous as to your intentions, I would interpret it as being AGF WP:SYNTH. Having encountered you both before, while I know that you're essentially good editors, I am also aware that you have been known to be amendable to omission which speaks to WP:COATRACK. Do not introduce content and try to edit war it in by avoiding WP:BRD. That's plainly WP:POINTy editing practice. Also, if you wish to delete an RS because it 'contradicts what other RS are saying', you'd better bring those RS to the table in order to ensure that they actually are RS, not just verifiable blogs, forums and WP:BIASED sources being used to shoehorn your POV.
Neither of you are qualified to elicit interpretations using primary resources, so please drop it. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:22, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Nazi. 174.95.58.51 (talk) 22:07, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of Russia-proposed UN resolution 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Ukrainian nationalism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061210152938/http://encarta.msn.com:80/encyclopedia_761573617_9/Ukraine.html to http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573617_9/Ukraine.html#p58
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 22:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've removed the 'expand section' tag and replaced it with a WP:POV tag for the section. This is meant to be an encyclopaedic article on Ukrainian nationalism (per the WP:TITLE), not a WP:COATRACK for leaping into assassinations of Poles by the OUN without providing any WP:RS context for the Anglophone readers (and any other readers who have no idea about the political dynamics of the Eastern Slavic regions). Instead, it reads as a fragmented discourse in victimhood more closely related to a blog or forum than an encyclopaedic article.
I'm not concerned about any editor 'wishlists' for making a WP:POINT. Any negative or positive aspects of this article need to be presented in a manner that actually makes sense.
Also, differentiating between Western Ukraine and central and eastern Ukraine needs to be balanced according to reliably sourced content from a number of academic sources, and there is no one event or relationship that describes the dynamics of WWII and how Ukrainian nationalism manifested. Rather than POV-pushing polemics about the relationship with Poland, selective and POV-proscribed readings of Western Ukrainian nationalism must be balanced with other areas of Ukraine and how nationalism manifested in those regions in the inter-war periods and during the war. Essentially, Western Ukraine is not, and has never been, the entirety of Ukraine, nor the entire Ukrainian population... so why is content from between the wars to 1991 focussed on one aspect of Western Ukrainian nationalism and anti-Polonism? Is that how Ukrainian nationalism manifested throughout the duration of the Soviet Union? Really? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:40, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes, this page needs improvement. My very best wishes (talk) 21:06, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interwar period in modern-day Western Ukraine 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Ukrainian nationalism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Snyder":
From Cossack Hetmanate: Timothy Snyder. (2003). The Reconstruction of Nations. New Haven: Yale University Press. pp. 120-122
From Polonization: Timothy Snyder, The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569–1999, Yale University Press,  No preview available. Google Books, p.144 See instead: PDF copy (5,887 KB), last accessed: 25 February 2011. 
From Second Polish Republic: Timothy Snyder, The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569–1999, Yale University Press,  p. 144
From Wołyń Voivodeship (1921–1939): Snyder, op cit, Google Print, p.146
From Roman Shukhevych: 
From Tadeusz Hołówko: Timothy Snyder, The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999, Yale University Press,  Google Books, p.144
Reference named "Davies_GP2-407":
From Tadeusz Hołówko: Davies, God's Playground, op.cit.
From Polonization: 
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 07:36, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Ukrainian nationalism]] 

message: The references in this article are pretty much an anarchy in terms of what style is used. Any opinions on which citation style we should use consistently throughout the article? Glades12 (talk) 20:17, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation style 

message: Apparently Norman Davies claims that during WW2 Ukrainian nationalists killed between 200,000 and 500,000 Poles (therefore I removed the tags "citation needed" and "clarify" here ). I'm not an expert but I find this figure quite surprising. I'm copying and pasting here below the relevant excerpt. Davies provides sources (here below quoted) that I could not verify. I leave this to more competent editors.
 
 
Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I opened a discussion on this at Talk:Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, so please comment there. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:28, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Poles killed during WW2