Talk:Augusto Pinochet/Archive 2

message: Is the assertion of U.S. backing for the coup misleading or controversial in Augusto Pinochet/intro (succinct version), even in the presence of the footnote?
:This is loaded phrasing. I do not consider it misleading, but the simple fact that this discussion is taking place is proof that it is controversial. Eclecticology 17:07, 2004 May 19 (UTC)
::Ec, this is asking whether or not the assertion is controversial, as opposed to an undisputable fact, not whether U.S. actions were 'controversial'. 172
[IMO "even in the presence of a footnote" should not be in the question, because some of us do not want a footnote even if we think it goes some way towards clearing up the NPOV issue. Cadr ]
Yes:
# By 172's own definition (see the discussion in section 10) the possible meanings of "backed" include "aided", so the word is misleading. 172 should also note that readers of this article are unlikley to look up every word they read in a dictionary, and should take the context of the word into account (as VV points out in his previous comment). Cadr
#:My own definition to "back" (v) is American Heritage's, which is to provide support, assistance, or encouragement for (a contending force). It does not necessarily entail the provision of "aid." Cadr is putting words in my mouth; I said "or" as opposed to "and" when I has written the word "aid" once (very hastily). 172 11:49, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Another poll

message: All this talk of settling the editing issues by polling and declaring "winners" is silly. As Michael pointed out (more politely!), that's not what polls are for. Well, I'm telling you that the official policy of this website is Wikipedia:NPOV.
If a fact or value (or anything else important) is in dispute in an article, the Wikipedia is not supposed to settle the issue. Rather, it REPORTS WHAT THE VARIOUS SIDES SAY. Sorry for shouting, but some contributors on this page just don't get it.
Including a phrase like "US-backed coup" implies that Wikipedia endorses the view that the coup was backed by the US (whatever that means or entails). Since there is CLEARLY a dispute among us contributors about whether (or how much) the US "backed the coup", the Wikipedia cannot come out and say flatly that the US backed the coup.
Rather, the article must report what various historians and other observers have said. I'd be happy to see something like:
*All historians, except for a few right-wing wackos, agree that the US backed the coup.
(Okay, wackos is a bit extreme, but you know what I mean: we attribute every point of view (POV) to the advocated of that POV.)
It might be a bit more polished to say:
*Historians and others disagree over how much support the US gave to Pinochet. Joe Schmoe says the US "backed the coup by supplying arms, intelligence, money, and assurances of friendly future relations." Sam Shady, a known CIA operative, claims that the US had no part in the coup, aside from making public statements amounting to a claim that Allende was destroying the Chilean economy and driving the country toward dictatorship. (Note that these are made-up examples of the kinds of quotations we need to find and put into the article, so that all POV is properly attributed.) --Uncle Ed 14:06, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't be silly

message: * I read quite a bit about Pinochet, Allende and Chile's economy in the 60s and 70s (and not just "opinions" but economic data and scientific analysis). People who say I have "visibly no understanding" and vote "ideologically" just because I happen not to agree with them, are making a productive discussion hard.
**VV The "no understanding" was in reference to being aware of what we had been talking about on this Talk page.
* I am not "buddy of 172", random or otherwise, nor was I "brought in" by him. Saying so without verification or proof reflects quite negatively on VeryVerily's way of argumentation in my opinion. If I understood the principles of Wikipedia correctly, everyone knowledgeable can try to contribute to the discussion...
**VV I did not say this. I said that some were buddies of 172, and they were. You are falling for 172 smear tricks. VV 09:24, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with all of the above particulars, if not the conclusion. Sam [Spade] 04:23, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal attacks, revert wars and ideological bias

message: An anti-Pinochet site says:
:In 1973, after the Allende government moved to introduce Socialist ideals into the predominantly Roman Catholic education system, and after the leader of the Socialist party called for a barracks rebellion against senior officers, the military broke its tradition of being apolitical and staged a bloody coup, backed by Washington. 
I'd like to know more about those "Socialist ideals". Does this mean indoctrination into atheist Communism, or what? I can't think of anything that would get peace-loving Catholics riled up, other than messing with their belief system. I mean try telling a gang of teenagers in South Boston that the Virgin Mary wasn't a virgin, and see what happens... --Uncle Ed 19:48, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: More about the coup

message: I removed the protection from this page because the discussion on this talk page has not been active. --"DICK" CHENEY 15:19, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection

message: My edit to the intro was only supposed to be temporary, in case anyone got the wrong idea. I just thought it might stop the edit wars long enough for a consensus to be reached on the talk page. The alternative was (apparently) for the page to be protected again. Cadr
::I had, you'll note, accepted this stop-gap measure, but 172 continued to revert to his version anyway, in fact reverted once just to revert. Thus, alas, I concluded this idea was DOA. -- VV 23:09, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And now we're back to that alternative again. It would be nice if there was some actual discussion on the talk page this time, so that unprotection doesn't simply lead to a resumption of the same revert war again. --Michael Snow 23:02, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: See how much discussion there's been? See what it's gotten us? -- VV 23:09, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me assure you, whatever the discussion may or may not have "gotten us", the discussion is not causing the revert wars or the page protection. You and 172 are the ones responsible for that. Kindly start discussing the content of the article, both of you. I am very close to asking you to discuss your conduct before the arbitration committee. --Michael Snow 23:17, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely you've noticed the asymmetry between our handling of the situation, impartial though you may wish to be? All partisans worked out an intro that was mutually tolerable. The reverting started when 172 refused to accept any other than his own. You must be aware by now of 172's tactics; recall this is someone who told you to "fuck off" not a few weeks ago. If I thought there was any credible Wikipedia apparatus for ending the madness on this page, I would take it. But I have tried them all - consensus building, third-party admins, RfC pages, quickpolls - without avail. (Okay, except mediation, which I have, as I promised, been reading up on, but remain doubtful of.) It seems when dealing with the likes of 172 one must use equal force if one's edits are to not be consigned to the dustbin of page history as soon as they are submitted. (I should also note I generally do back off a bit if even modest signs of possible good faith compromise appear, as I did earlier today on the Soviet history page.) -- VV 23:38, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, please discuss the content of the article. To the extent that I discuss how you two handle the situation, I will continue to remain impartial and apply my statements to both of you, because not all the evidence is present here. If you end up in arbitration, the evidence can be gathered and we can let the arbitration committee decide if one of you behaved less badly than the other. I don't care what 172 told me to do; that's no reason for me to treat him differently from you. --Michael Snow 23:51, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It was evidence of the same sort of incivility we've all suffered. Impartiality is a tricky notion here, when it was "impartiality" in the form of consensus and POV-balancing that produced the consensus intro I now defend. (Can you be impartial between your notion of impartiality and mine? Okay, that was mostly a joke.) I am a bit at a loss as to what to say about the content that I and others have not said already, mostly unanswered. Indeed, if you'll note, the discussion above is lopsided in this respect. -- VV 23:57, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro