Talk:Texas Citizens for Science

message: TableManners:
#The title of the blog/article is NOT "The lowdown on higher education" -- that is the section title. The title is "Science education advocate to speak".
#Havard referencing is completely over the top for such a short article.
#Your edits somehow managed to suppress the "References" section, meaning that there was no linkages between the article [x]-tags and the Havard-based "Sources" section at the end.
Please stop over-complicating & stuffing up a stub -- especially one that you have just (and prematurely AfDed)! HrafnTalkStalk 05:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this is a bug in the template.  There were no cites before.  Now there are, and a few of them aren't working exactly correctly.  Please let me try to fix it before edit warring.  Thanks.  TableMannersC·U·T 06:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Might I suggest that it is you who should get his citation-system working before attempting to overwrite it over one that is. And why do we need Harvard citation for a stub? HrafnTalkStalk 06:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: (ec)Ah, never mind, I reverted myself to your version.  Go ahead, I am done editing the article for a time.  Thanks for your patience.  TableMannersC·U·T 06:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I was trying, a bit hard with everybody jumping down my throat at the Afd, on my talk page, and with edit wars.  This is a low priority article so I don't know what the big deal was.  The bug is in the template, not my use of the template, it seems.  The Harvard reference template does not create unique #CITEREFs when the same author writes multiple works in the same year.  TableMannersC·U·T 06:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: No sweat.  It was not a speedy delete.  Afds take some time to close, and I was actively working to improve and keep the article per sources pointed out by .  TableMannersC·U·T 06:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but I have seen AfDs 'snowball' on the basis of incomplete/incorrect information before & be in danger of an early close on the basis of this -- which was why I was concerned about getting references in as soon as possible. No bad faith on either side, just each rushing a bit much. HrafnTalkStalk 06:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference stuff-ups 

message: I'm turning up references to a "Dr Steven Schafersman" who's a micropaleontologist (usually classified as a geologist, but might be considered a biologist) at universities in Florida and Texas. Can anybody confirm that this isn't the same person as the TCFS president? This Steven Schafersman appears to have gone to Rice University, have been a skeptic involved in the Shroud of Turin controversy, and to be anti-creationist among his other manifestations of skepticism. HrafnTalkStalk 07:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, it's the same guy.  Was at UT Permian Basin until recently, but isn't any more - based on his age, he may have retired.  Guettarda (talk) 08:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then merely calling him a "biology teacher" would appear to be inaccurate. Do we have a WP:RS on his full qualifications? HrafnTalkStalk 08:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Not yet.  Pretty sure this is he:; note the "22 years of teaching", ad the "Ph.D. in Geology, 1983, Rice University".  Also this: which matches the other pieces.  TCS has a Midland address, which the company covers Midland/Odessa/Permian Basin.  Guettarda (talk) 08:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Okay, I just read the criteria for notability at WP:NOTE, so I understand what the issue was now. I will send Guettarda other references that cite TCS. Steven (talk) 16:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steven Schafersman 

message: "Verifiability, not truth" does not mean "pick a source with an obvious typo".  Guettarda (talk) 16:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: May I ask who exactly do you believe is intentionally picking a source with a typo? TableMannersC·U·T 16:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Verifiability not truth could ruin the encyclopedia by filling it full of newspaper and internet errors. How does that promote NPOV. And intentionally, Guettarda wasn't saying intentionally. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Guettarda, I struck the preceeding comment as not useful to the discussion, as I already know the answer.  But I do think that characterizing the source has having a "typo", and characterizing the use of the source as cherry "pick"ing is bad faith and a personal attack.  There are a dearth of sources on this topic, and the source called him a biology teacher.  If you have sources that contradict it, the way to fix it, as I have explained already, is to read the other sources, summarize them, and add the material and citation to the article.  You should not remove cited material to promote your own POV.  Thanks.  TableMannersC·U·T 16:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: SqueakBox, I think you should take your point to Wikipedia talk:Verifiability, as Wikipedia:Verifiability is official policy, and not up for debate on an article by article basis, short of violation of some other policy.  TableMannersC·U·T 16:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not a policy maker so I won't be doing that but I would point out that if you try putting errors into articles and then claim they are verifiable you are certainly not being helpful, and if you think verifiability means we should put errors into articles then I suggets you post to WP:V, not me. Otherwise you can please tone the attacks down, you are being completely over the top. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not accuse me of putting errors in the article.  The source said X, I summarized X, and provided a link to the source.  This is per wikipedia policy, and being characterized as a biology teacher is not exactly defamatory.  Teaching is a fine profession.  TableMannersC·U·T 16:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but if he isn't a biology eacher? And besides the source was clearly unreliable and no evidence it was even referrign to the same chap, whom the TCS official webpage calls Steven Schafersman. Our biography policy (BLP) does not allow for mischaracterisation merely becomes an editor sees the mischaracterisation as being to an honourable profession, eg such a falsehood contradicting Schafersman's CV in a job interview would have profound BLP consequences. Clearly what you did was not per wikipedia policy anyway as the source Guettarda removed was unverifiable by any stretch of the imagination because it identified someone different or was just a typo, and that kind of typo is never a reliable source. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I'll let others comment, because I think we have a disagreement here.  TableMannersC·U·T 16:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You should really familiarise yourself (a) with policy, and (b) with how policy is applied.  Wikipedia guidelines and policy are not applied legalistically.  Adding a factually incorrect statement just because you can find a source that says so isn't acceptable.  Guettarda (talk) 17:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Yes, that looks fixed now. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:V 

message: It seems that the TCfS was last prominent in 2003, with the Texas SBOE biology textbook hearings. Schafersman's  testimony can be found here. There appears to have been news coverage of their involvement, but I've been unable (as yet) to get my hands on full articles for that far back to confirm this. HrafnTalkStalk 17:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Added. At 3.2k & 8 references (=400bytes/ref), this is now one of most heavily referenced stubs I've seen. ;) HrafnTalkStalk 17:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I've put up bare-bones of this, including this transcript as a reference. HrafnTalkStalk 17:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Textbook hearings in 2003 

message: * Submitted (with various other Citizens for Science groups) of an amicus brief in the Selman v. Cobb County 
* Ongoing involvement in the revision of TEKS ; needs 3rd party refs.  Guettarda (talk) 18:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other things 

message: Battle Against Teaching Evolution in Texas Begins -- may prove to be useful in this or related articles. HrafnTalkStalk 07:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lengthy article on Texas Evolution-education situation 

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thread_title:  External links modified