Talk:Postage stamps and postal history of Palestine

message: Greetings. Started this article with the intent of an integrated history of the area called Israel and/or Palestine, moved content to a Palestine-only article to conform with WikiProject Philately. Some revisions needed. Best wishes, HG | Talk 00:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That is what I suggested during a discussion hereand this page should be deleted or if kept should be a dab page at most. Thanks for you input. ww2censor (talk) 21:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't the situation a bit more complicated? I mean, shouldn't there be a separate article for the Ottoman Empire, British mandate, EEF, and Postage stamps and postal history of the Palestinian National Authority? Technically, I suspect only the mandate had the official name Palestine, though I could be wrong. Let's keep trying to talk this thru, thanks. HG | Talk 21:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that given the explanation surrounding the term Palestine in the article on the subject, and the antiquity of postal services in this region, it makes sense to have an article on Postage stamps and postal history of Palestine that encompasses the postal services and stamps provided by the successive empires that ruled the region. Tiamuttalk 11:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I don't contest that in the USA (and probably Canada) Scott is the leading brand of stamp catalogues, but outside of North America, Scott plays a very minor role indeed. In the field of Palestine the catalogue most widely used is the very specialized Bale. I don't see a need to stress what Scott does or thinks over what other catalogue makers have published. I hope we can avoid such amerocentric tendencies on Wikipedia.82.212.63.18 (talk) 20:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm only trying to put in whatever mainstream and scholarly references I can find that are relevant to the article. I would rather not delete the information about Scotts. Instead, if you can provide information about Bale that we can add to the article, we can juxtapose the two against one another. I think it's important for people to know that PNA stamps are recognized as collectable items. The Scotts reference is the only one I found so far that refers to that. If you have something else, please put it foward. But I'm not going to delete the only sourced information we have about the subject just because it may be interpreted by some to be Amerocentric. Tiamuttalk 21:09, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Start up

message: This is a minor point, Tiamut, but the JNF stamps mentioned here (so far) are not postage stamps but fundraising/charity stamps. (In '48 some JNF stamps were used by pre-Israel govt. I'd be interested in doing an article on it. Can we work on it together on a user subpage and release it when it's ready? So, perhaps this should be moved from this article to a stub or drafting subpage? Thanks. HG | Talk 03:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not write a section for the Jewish National Fund article about this? ww2censor (talk) 04:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not against an article on the subject, but I don't want to move the information here out of this article since the sources cited use "Palestine" and discuss JNF postal activities therein. We can link from the material in this article to a main article on the JNF that discusses the information more thoroughly after it's been added. Is that okay with you? Tiamuttalk 15:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not create a seperate section Propaganda labels where both the JNF's and other organisations' labels could be mentioned. Although some JNF labels were overprinted in 1948 and briefly used as postage stamps, the regular JNF labels never ever served as postage stamps in their own right.Bleddynefans (talk) 16:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Because these are only labels and postage stamps then you should remove the word stamps throughout the text, as they had no postal validity. ww2censor (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: JNF stamps/Propaganda labels

message: In response to T's question about the UPU designation, I just searched their site and can't find any mention of the PNA or Palestine. Doesn't show up in their members list or their database or list of postal authorities. The NYT piece doesn't actually say they were admitted to the UPU, so maybe they weren't. If so, then the NYT piece and the inclusion of PNA in various catalogs is more notable than I had thought. Thanks. HG | Talk 21:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like Article 29 stipulates that the lack of UPU membership will not be changed. See also Universal Postal Union. However, I think Wikipedia can rely on the catalogs and other indications of notability, we're not bound to the UPU. HG | Talk 21:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: UPU and catalogs

message: As noted above, I've worked on merging materials from the Israel and Palestine article into this article. Here's my draft. This article would cover the the postal history of the geographic area until the present day -- but with summary style to postal authorities that can get their own article (e.g., Israel, PNA, probably British Mandate). So, as needed, this article would include postage stamps issued in the area from various minor entities (e.g., Italian post, APC). Given these changes and its divergence from the country-specific paradigm, as discussed above, the article name would be changed to Postal history of Palestine.
I'm a bit wary of implementing the merge. I suppose some editors would rather see the changes in the article and then edit from there, rather than discuss this endlessly. But Tiamut has been pretty involved with other articles and I don't want the merge to cause an adverse reaction. So, let me start by floating the following introduction for your perusal:
The postal history of Palestine as a geographic area emerges out of its role as a crossroads amidst the empires of the ancient Near East, the Levant and the Middle East. In the era of modern postage, the postal authorities for this area have included Austrian, French, Italian, and Russian post offices (through arrangements with the Ottoman empire), the Egyptian Expeditionary Forces, the British Mandate, and various interim authorities during the transition period of 1948. Since 1948, the postal services have been provided by Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinian National Authority. 
:::Terminology (subheading)
Philatelists refer to this geographic area as Palestine, Israel, or the Holy Land. //further explanation of nuances or philatelic history, catalogs, etc.// This article surveys the postal history leading up to the area's two current postal administrations, the State of Israel and the Palestinian National Authority. 
: 
Looking forward to your comments. If no problems seem to be on the horizon, I'll go ahead and do the rest of the merge. Thanks very much. HG | Talk 13:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi HG. Please go ahead and add your edits to the article. I really do prefer to see them in place and then make changes and discuss as required. It's easier to follow the article's development that way. Thanks for being so considerate though, as to place the proposed changes here first. Hope you are doing well. Tiamuttalk 14:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your encouragement. I've done the merge and will rename. Still can't figure out some of the citations. Started to summarize the Israel and PNA sections, needs some wordsmithing and input on priorities. There's some good JNF stamps material and will work on a spin-out for that in the near term. Not sure when I would get to the Mandate stamps.  HG (talk • contribs) 16:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good job HG. I will review the references sometime later, maybe Sunday as I have a lot to do the next 2 days. BTW I really hate the :Image:Stampil.jpg image because the quality is so bad. What about using :Image:Stamp Israel 1948-3mil yellow.jpg which I added to the Israel article previously? Cheers ww2censor (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent work HG! I too will try to get to the references soon, if Www2censor doesn't beat me to it. I'm so proud of our collaboration on this article, it's really shaping up to be one the best on the subject at Wikipedia. Kudos! Tiamuttalk 11:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, T, really appreciate that. I would like to see us improve this article, maybe get it to GA someday. At least for now, I'd suggest that we try to farm out all the controversial issues to the Israel and PNA spinouts. If our descriptions of the controversies stabilize, then we'll be in better position to summarize them here. See ya, HG | Talk 04:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is just one problem that I see and that is the title does not match the content. The article is about the postal history AND the postage stamps, so we should call it by its correct name Postage stamps and postal history of Palestine. That name is now a redirect to this page, but it should be the reverse, so we will have to ask an admin to change it. Stan can do that for us and he understands the topic well as well as the reasoning. Hope you agree with me. ww2censor (talk) 02:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason for the name change is that this article does not fit within the usual article convention here -- it's about a geographic area, not a country or postal authority. (I don't want to annoy Tiamut by being blunt, but for Ww2censor's sake I feel I should emphasize that 'Palestine' has never been afaik the name of a stamp-issuing country. It's just like you said about Postage stamps and postal history of Israel and Palestine: "There is no such country, stamp issuing authority, or postal authority...") So, as discussed above, I've tried to come up with a title that would not let this article be confused as a country article. Stan said "Yes, that all sounds fine to me. We do have "Postal history of XXX" articles but despite appearances I'm not obsessed with any particular titling. :-)" Some of these postal history articles have stamps in content but not article name (e.g., British post offices in Morocco, Postal history of Heligoland).  But I'm open to hearing your suggestion of an article name that can be differentiated from the "by country" convention. Maybe Philatelic history of Palestine? Thanks. HG | Talk 04:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Have to agree with Ww2censor here as well HG. Palestine's long history pre-dating the formation of nation-states makes it a kind of special case in that regard. If the reliable sources are using Palestine to discuss the subject of postal history and postal stamps, we should too. Thanks. Tiamuttalk 09:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro and merge 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:PNA stamp 1000m dome 1994.jpg