Talk:Orson Hyde

message: I hate to mention this, but in reality, Orson Hyde would have succeeded Brigham Young as the President of the church, but he died before him.  69.227.142.160
:Orson Hyde passed away on 28 November 1878, Brigham Young over a year earlier on August 29, 1877.  So, if Young hadn't made the ruling on succession pushing Hyde down the line, Hyde would have been president.  But of course, John Taylor was instead. WBardwin 06:29, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: At the time, there was a gap between the incumbent president dying and his successor being sustained; in the cases of both Young and Taylor, it was three years.  So Hyde would have become leader of the church when Young died, but in all likelihood he would not yet have been sustained as president by the time of his death. Binabik80 (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Succession to the Presidency 

message: The article stated that the Mormons who participated in the "Battle of Crooked Creek" (should be "Crooked River") were from the "Nauvoo" branch of the State Militia.  There was no Nauvoo.  Nauvoo was after Far West.  I've corrected other problems. --John Hamer 15:08, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the primary source and rewrite.  Much better.  Similar info should probably go into Thomas B. Marsh, as well.  RE: casualties at Crooked River, the Mormon's were also Missourian's and they lost men, including David Patten.  Should we then list the losses on both sides?  WBardwin 15:48, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, yes -- I added the Mormon losses, including Patten.  It's really tough to come up with simple labels for encyclopedia readers.  Like you say, the Mormons were also residents of Missouri, but it's hard to label the non-Mormon Missourians "non-Mormon Missourians" every time.  Contemporaries tended to frame it as "Mormons" vs. "Missourians" --- with the sense that the so-called "Missourians" were prior settlers into which group the Mormons had no desire to assimilate.  It's hard to use the terms "vigilantes" and "militias" since there was cross over on both sides.  When the Mormons were operating defensively in Caldwell County they were technically a militia and when they crossed out of the county they became vigilantes or an illegal militia.  Likewise, if Bogart's group crossed into Caldwell (which it probably did) it was operating illegally or as vigilantes while there, but they were legal in Bunkham's Strip.  Likewise the Livingston/Daviess group that illegally entered Caldwell Co. and massacred the Mormons at Haun's Mill was operating as vigilantes even though it contained militia elements.  The confusion between "mob" and "militia" (on both sides) no doubt was extremely confusing at the time as well.--John Hamer 19:57, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mormon War 

message: I came across this article days after hearing about the Mormon Church's recent acknowledgment of Joseph Smith's polygamy. {see http://kunr.org/post/mormon-church-publishes-essay-founder-joseph-smiths-polygamy} I don't have any background in this area, nor time to do the research (the radio broadcast I heard mentioned Smith's many child "brides", shocking even to modern Mormons). IMHO this article would be improved by mentioning at least how many children Hyde had with his first wife, as well as by a general mention of the ages of subsequent wives, if not also whether Hyde's polygamy was well known and/or controversial outside the LDS church. Polygamy was a very hot button issue in the 19th century. Not only did it feature in discussions of the proposed state of Deseret (which remained the Utah Territory during Hyde's lifetime) and the Utah War which preceded the American Civil War, it continued into or reflamed in the 1870s, with various publications by those leaving the church as well as pressure for statehood after completion of the Transcontinental Railroad. The LDS did not ban polygamy until 1890, and codification of that ban into Utah's constitution was a condition for statehood long after Hyde's deaht.Jweaver28 (talk) 22:00, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polygamy 

message: The infobox template for this Orson Hyde article states that he was disfellowshipped from January 11-14, 1846.  We all know about the 1839 removal, falling into the Mormon-Missouri War and affecting his succession after the 1875 realignment of Quorum seniority.  But this 3 day disfellowshipment sounds like an interesting story.  And I've never heard of it.  Does anyone know a source?  I looked in the following places and found no mention of it at all:
* Church Almanac, 2008
* Utah History Encyclopedia
* Encyclopedia of Latter-day Saint History
* Encyclopedia of Mormonism
* Joseph Smith Papers biographical register
* "Seniority in the Twelve: The 1875 Realignment of Orson Pratt", Journal of Mormon History (1992), by Gary Bergera
* Roy B. Huff, "Orson Hyde: A Life of Lessons Learned," Religious Educator (2002)
* A Book of Mormons, by Van Wagoner and Walker
* Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia, by Andrew Jenson
* History of Utah biographical entry, by Orson F. Whitney
* Mormon Hierarchy, by Michael Quinn
* Church History in the Fulness of Times
* History of the Church
On the other hand, it doesn't seem like Orson Hyde was out of favor during this period of time:
* 1844: Presented petition to the U.S. government in behalf of the Mormons 
* June 29, 1944: Attended conference in Boston (right after JS death) 
* December 1845: Participates in various meetings in the incomplete Nauvoo Temple 
* January 2, 1846: Delivers public speech and prayer 
* January 11, 1846: Sealed to his wife Marinda 
* January 27, 1846: Officiated in temple ordinances, along with other apostles.
* Early 1846: Stayed in Nauvoo (during the Mormon exodus) to oversee the completion of the Nauvoo Temple 
* May 1, 1846: Dedicated the Nauvoo Temple 
* Mid-May 1846: Settled in Council Bluffs, IA 
* Remainder of 1846: Presided over the British Mission 
* 1847: Returned from mission, to preside over the church at Winter Quarters (until 1852) 
* 1847: Became President of the Quorum of the Twelve 
All this makes this 3 day disfellowship seem very suspicious.  Especially that the purported day of disfellowshipment was the very day he was sealed in the Nauvoo Temple.  And shortly afterward he headed up the temple completion, dedicated it, led the most important mission, led the pioneer camp, and became president of the quorum.  Huge responsibilities and trust and honors.  Is this some kind of mysterious error in the article that has gone unexamined since it was added in 2008?  ——Rich jj (talk) 05:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Still unable to find any sources, I'm going to move forward with removing this from Orson Hyde's page and also from Chronology of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church)#1840s.  ——Rich jj (talk) 13:34, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  1846 disfellowshipment 

message: This is FYI, for anyone who cares.  
This article says that in 1839 Hyde was only disfellowshipped and removed from the Quorum, not excommunicated.  From my research, I think this is correct.  However, I have also found various credible sources that claim he was excommunicated.  Gary Bergera actually speaks to this, and says there was no evidence for excommunication.  I intend to make brief mention of this in the article and cite his paper (here).  
Here are a small sample of sources which say he was only removed from the Quorum, not excommunicated
* Robert C. Freeman, "Hyde, Orson", Encyclopedia of Latter-day Saint History (2000)
* Howard H. Barron, "Hyde, Orson", Encyclopedia of Mormonism (1992)
* Grandpa Bill's General Authority Pages
* Gary J. Bergera, "The Personal Cost of the 1838 Mormon War in Missouri", Mormon Historical Studies (2003)
* Gary Bergera, "Seniority in the Twelve", Journal of Mormon History (1992)
Here are the sources I could find that say he was excommunicated: 
* Marvin S. Hill, "[Review of] Barron, Howard H. Orson Hyde", BYU Studies (1978)
* Lynn M. Hilton and Hope A Hilton, "Hyde, Orson", Utah History Encyclopedia (1994)
* Alex Beam, American Crucifixion (2014)
* Roy B. Huff, "Orson Hyde: A Life of Lessons Learned," Religious Educator (2002)
In a 1992 article (page 22, footnote 12) in the Journal of Mormon History, Bergera goes further, arguing that Hyde was only suspended, not even formally disfellowshipped.  (This is where Bergera also argues that evidence does not support that Orson Pratt was actually excommunicated in 1842.)  I will not introduce this into the WP article at this time, because I don't know how it compares to the historical consensus.  
Also, I saw some brief mention that Hyde was disfellowshipped in 1835 for criticizing Sydney Rigdon.  Is it credible?  Is it notable?
* Grandpa Bill's General Authority Pages
* Bruce N. Westergren, "Twelve Apostles", From Historian to Dissident (1992)
* [cites] Lyndon W. Cook, The Revelations of the Prophet Joseph Smith (1985)
——Rich jj (talk) 23:25, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  1839 discipline