Talk:Angeles City/Archive 3

message: A short paragraph in the History section referring to prostitution in Angeles City has been deleted twice in the last 24 hours by anonymous user 210.4.102.229. This deletion is unwarranted. The Balibago area has long been known as the red-light district of Angeles city, so the fact that prostitution occurs there is no secret. The extent of child prostitution and human trafficking is less well publicized, but in my opinion deserves to be. The facts are well documented and are, again in my opinion, difficult to refute. I think it should remain included in the Angeles City article.
It is impolite to delete material without discussion. If repeated it is regarded as vandalism, and if deletions persist can result in the editor being blocked. I would much rather it doesn't come to that. Please discuss your concerns here and allow a consensus to be formed. Phaedrus86 04:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unwarranted deletion of reference to prostitution 

message: It seems that any factual presentation of the tourist areas in Angeles City is hampered by the rules that wiki runs on. No Original Research means that even though I have 2 decades of experience in the Philippines, my knowledge is useless on wiki. Verifiability is next to impossible in regards to a subject that almost nobody cares to officially document. I'd like to know how we can have a useful article that is not blown up with sensational OMG "facts" such as Susan Bryce likes to give us. 
I personally just walked down Fields Ave in Angeles City less than 2 hours ago from lunch, and didn't see a single bar guarded by armed men or surrounded by razor wire. Generally, shotgun and sub-machinegun armed men are only on the streets during martial law. Been a long time since that happened in Philippines. The local police also put out armed officers on street corners when military exercises bring in hundreds of foreign troops. That is also a rare occurrence. 
But damn, the above is personally observed things and worthless to us isn't it? What now? CorwinSF 07:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What Can We Do?

message: It's absolutely horrible to say that one of the main industries in Angeles City remains prostitution.  I have lived in this city for 30 years and I've seen how the city rose from ashes after the Pinatubo eruption and it's so unfair to say this statement.  I'm honest to say that there's only one area in this city called "Fields Avenue" where prostitution is rampant but hey, this is just one stretch of a street so no one can generally state that prostitution indeed remains an industry here.   We know the fact that there's prostitution in every city in the Philippines so let's be fair in adding this statement as it is destroys the city's reputation of doing it's best to maintain the economic status it's now enjoying.  Please do come to the city and observe and by then, you can compare how prostitution can be worse elsewhere. 75.180.219.137 21:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please stop saying that one of the main industries remains prostitution. 

message: Every city has prostitution, indeed.  To say that Angeles is a center of prostitution is a hyperbolic statement.  One needs to live in this booming city before anyone can make a horrific statement as such.  Let's stop generalizing this as the city is bigger than what anyone thinks and to stigmatize is such a biased thing to do.  Why not go to Pasay, Cebu, Mindoro, Laguna and other key cities in the Philippines and by there, you'll discover that prostitution can even be worse elsewhere in the Philippines. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 02:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dispute that it is a hyperbolic statement. Not every city gets named specifically as being a center for it. Have a look at the references to Human trafficking in Angeles City to articles including BBC News and an Australian Parliamentary Inquiry report which specifically name Angeles City. Phaedrus86 07:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It is well documented. This is an encyclopedia. Please read the Wikipedia policy on attribution which states Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. We assemble well documented facts. If you have citations of credible sources which demonstrate that Angeles is not as described, then please present them and we will all learn, but please do not provide your own opinions or bias - that helps nobody. Phaedrus86 21:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

text: But you have no credible sources to back you up, so as I say, opinions don't count for much on Wikipedia. Phaedrus86 08:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

text: It already has a link to it. The word "known" in the sentence on prostitution is currently a wikilink to Human trafficking in Angeles City". It is not appropriate to use an external link to an internal Wikipedia article. You can make any text a wikilink to a Wikipedia article - see Wikipedia:How to edit a page#Links and URLs. Phaedrus86 10:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Only admins can do that and I am not an admin. Phaedrus86 07:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Every city has prostitution  

message: Id like to suggest to the moderators an additional section to be added to the article on Angeles.
Angeles has enourmous problems and massive human rights violations as we already know from the sex slavery and human trafficking and organized crime. But another major issue in the city that is also gaining international attention is children in jail in the city.
Here are some links and info on the situation:http://www.preda.org/work/child%20rescue/minreport.html
ANGELES DISTRICT JAIL, PAMPANGA PROVINCE
GENERAL CONDITIONS FOR MINORS
- Minors in Angeles Jail are detained in a small (3 meters by 7 meters approx) unventilated concrete cell. There is no window in the cell, and the minors have no access to an electric fan which many of the adult cells have and which is necessary in the constant oppressive heat.
- The minor's cell is in a block containing over a hundred convicted adult prisoners. During the day there is free access for all prisoners (including the minors) to mix freely throughout the block.
- The same cell is always used to house male minors regardless of the number in the jail. Reports from adult inmates indicate that the same cell was used for up to 15 minors at a time. The maximum the Preda Jail Monitoring Team has seen in the cell is eight minors.
- There is no bedding or basic sanitary items supplied by the jail. There is a separated concrete cubicle in the corner of the cell with a toilet. The children are not given any change of clothes, and commonly wear rags.
- Recently there have been reports of a Hepatitis and TB epidemic in the Jail.
- The children have a maximum one-hour a day of exercise. They have to request this each day. They can then have access to a small basketball hoop in the yard. The minors are allowed five hours a day to walk freely around the adult block, and mingle freely with the convicted adult detainees.
- There is no mental stimuli of any kind provided for the children.
- The food budget per child/per day is 30 Pesos (equivalent to US .55 Cents a day). The children Preda talked to reported being underfed and hungry.
- There is little effort made to rehabilitate the minors who report visits from a social worker on average less than once a month.
- Conditions in the jail may amount to torture, inhuman, degrading treatment of the 
Here is another link on the problem from Amnesty....
minors.http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa350072003
It is a major problem, it is the subject of international media and human rights group, and I feel in keeping with wikipedia, it has a right to be added to the article, looking for some feedback here, kind regards, Susan.Susanbryce 09:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children in Jail  

message: Please stop messing the article on Angeles.  Another topic was added about jail in the city, which apparently has nothing good to do about the entry.  We really don't know who keeps on messing it up.  If you guys don't have anything good to do to help or any relevant things to add to improve this article, you might as well leave it that way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 23:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please stop messing the article on Angeles. 

message: What we're disputing here is the prostitution in Angeles, which just like in any other progressive city, is rampant.  OK let's agree upon that it be added.  But then, another entry about children in jail is being added.  It is insignificant.  Why are you guys trying to mess this entry up?  It used to be not included before.  Even if there's a link to this, why do we have to place it when, in fact, being a citizen of this city, I'm not even aware of it.  Please be considerate and fair enough as we, the people of Angeles, are truly affected by this news which is somehow fabricated and exaggerrated. It destroys the city's reputation of fighting prostitution.  I hope that when you add something nasty, you add something what good the city offers as well.  Be impartial enough to do so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 23:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children in jail? Why add it?  

message: "==Welfare Groups==
There are more welfare groups and Human Rights Moniters in Angeles then anywhere else in the Philippines.
This is due to the massive problems of the sex slave industry in Angeles.
http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/San/public/%7B7B62844A-267E-4E9A-82F9-224DC2FDA3E8%7D/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1/html/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1_39.htmurl = http://www.ips.fi/koulut/199742/6.htm
Preda has been actively involved in Angeles for numerous years.
The intervention of Preda into the Mango business over the past years has helped.http://www.preda.net/article/ftpreventprostitution.html
The Salvation Army set up office there in 2005 and have been active in helping the victims of sex slavery as well as the homeless.http://www1.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/vw-issue/53AA2BA6043E361C80257185004AE3C9?opendocument&id=34A6BDBBDD01C4F080257185004AA335
Another charity group, ReachOut Foundation International, with funding from USAID, PATH, and FHI launched a comprehensive AIDS/STD prevention program targeting the brothel-based female sex workers and their partners in this slum community.
http://www.aegis.org/conferences/iac/2002/D11246.html
Other women’s organizations include Women’s Legal Bureau, Women’s Crisis Center, Women’s Health Care Foundation, Conspectus, Kalayaan); the Nagkakaisang Kababaihan ng Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative (NKAC, or United Women of Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative) in Angeles City.
Fr. Shay Cullen, a children’s rights advocate and three time Nobel Peace Prize nominee has spent 37 years of service helping the children of the Philippines and in particular Angeles.http://www.preda.orghttp://www.preda.org/archives/2000/r00040001.html
The Women’s Health Care Foundation, WEDPRO sponsors a clinic in Angeles City" 
I put this here so the editor who will resolve this dispute can be sure of the exact debate.Susanbryce 20:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: here is the disputed section we need ruled on by a third party editor

message: The current content would sure STOP this dispute once and for all!  No children in jail, center for prostitution, and welfare groups would pacify everyone now.  Everyone needs to know that being citizens of Angeles hurt us the more to hear such stigmatizing statements against our town.  We are humans with emotions who you're dealing with.  Please respect us the way you want to be respected. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 20:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The current content would sure STOP this dispute once and for all! 

message: We are reporting a certain Susan Bryce for downrightly degrading our citizens in the city.  She's getting worse as she's now including a topic (that we have a high incidence of AIDS in the entire Philippines) which is apparently non-sense and no way helping us out.  Please clean this up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 20:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HIV with AIDs now 

message: We are reporting a certain Susan Bryce for downrightly degrading our citizens in the city.  She's getting worse as she's now including a topic (that we have a high incidence of AIDS in the entire Philippines) which is apparently non-sense and no way helping us out.  Please clean this up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 20:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HIV with AIDs now 

message: Good, now this article has been locked, let us now have the Editors resovle this matter once anf for all.
here is the disputed section we need ruled on by a third party editor==
"==Welfare Groups==
Fr. Shay Cullen, a children’s rights advocate and three time Nobel Peace Prize nominee has spent 37 years of service helping the children of the Philippines and in particular Angeles.http://www.preda.org/archives/2000/r00040001.html
There are more welfare groups and Human Rights Moniters in Angeles then anywhere else in the Philippines.
This is due to the massive problems of the sex slave industry in Angeles.
http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/San/public/%7B7B62844A-267E-4E9A-82F9-224DC2FDA3E8%7D/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1/html/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1_39.htmurl = http://www.ips.fi/koulut/199742/6.htm
Preda has been actively involved in Angeles for numerous years.
The intervention of Preda into the Mango business over the past years has helped.http://www.preda.net/article/ftpreventprostitution.html
The Salvation Army set up office there in 2005 and have been active in helping the victims of sex slavery as well as the homeless.http://www1.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/vw-issue/53AA2BA6043E361C80257185004AE3C9?opendocument&id=34A6BDBBDD01C4F080257185004AA335
Another charity group, ReachOut Foundation International, with funding from USAID, PATH, and FHI launched a comprehensive AIDS/STD prevention program targeting the brothel-based female sex workers and their partners in this slum community.
http://www.aegis.org/conferences/iac/2002/D11246.html
Other women’s organizations include Women’s Legal Bureau, Women’s Crisis Center, Women’s Health Care Foundation, Conspectus, Kalayaan); the Nagkakaisang Kababaihan ng Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative (NKAC, or United Women of Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative) in Angeles City.http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvbt.htm
The Women’s Health Care Foundation, WEDPRO sponsors a clinic in Angeles City" 
Now, the article is well written, it is well sourced and cited, and provides a valuable addition to the article in giving a insight to what is happening in Angeles and a good set of resources for people needing to gain info on Angeles. It highlights the work of recoginzed organizations and Nobel Peace Prize nominee.
Now would an editor pls rule on the this thankyou? and whatever the editor finally rules, lets all obey what the Editor finally decides pls.thankyouSusanbryce 12:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute Resolution

message: in the WELFARE section of this article it states:
"This is due to the massive problems of the sex slave industry in Angeles."
the references cited say nothing about a "sex slave" problem. in fact the word "slave" is not used once in either article. while it is my opinion that the term "massive" is subjective and also in error it is clear that references to prostitutes are being mis-categorized as "sex slaves" without any basis in fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RodentofDeath (talk • contribs) 08:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect information in "Welfare" section.