Talk:Ancient Greek units of measurement

message: This article is not in Wiki format and needs a bit of work. Xaa 23:44, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: I removed the following link from this entry as the page it links to is in German.  I moved the links to the German Wikipedia.
* More on the schoinos
Epolk 21:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved external link to German Wikipedia 

message: There's something very wrong (I think) with the character set(s) that were used by one or more editors in the past. For example, I see "1 uncia √¢¬à" for the third entry in the table. The wikitext is
:1 uncia √¢¬à
I can't fix it, because I don't know what it's supposed to say. Ardric47 22:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Display of characters 

message: Something very wrong here! The article says 1 medimnos is 48 kg but the linked article says it is equal to 25kg. I think the linked article must be right - if a choinikes is 1.1 Litres, and there are 48 of them in a medimnos, then a medimnos is about 52 Litres. Converted to mass, that amounts to 52 kg of water. I'm sure a dry measure of grain weighs a lot less than that! Consider also the fact that a litre of wheat grain would not weigh the same as a litre of barley. So I think the Wiki article is poorly written. If 1 medimnos is 25 kg of barley seed, a Thetes rated at a maximum 200 medimnoi per year, would then grow 5000kg of barley seed per year. That seems an awful lot to me! According to Wiki, it's a whopping 10 000 kg per year. Lucretius 08:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  medimnos=48Kg? 

message: Sorry but the more I look at this Wiki page the stupider it seems. It's titled 'Greek Measures'. But which Greeks? The different city states had different standards. This needs to be defined clearly. I suspect the general assumption is Athenian standards. Also I don't understand why lengths are expressed in terms of so many exotic units. It's confusing. Higher up, one contributor complains that there are no citations for all these lengths. There was no reply to this complaint. It's a valid complaint. Consider for example this weird assertion: 1 daktylos = 19.275mm. You must be kidding! The 'Greeks' measured as finely as 1 thousandth of a millimeter? And where did they keep the template for this precise length? Did they have it engraved on a brass rod located up some philosopher's backside? As I said, it's a mess. Lucretius 10:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is, indeed. I will not tire you with the story about why it became like this, but the process certainly wore me out entirely (you can look at Pseudoscientific metrology for a small summary about what we are talking about). Yes, please, please, if you can get rid of all the mess in here, that would be a wonderful thing. -- Egil 12:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now revised the page. I've provided a very simple format that can be developed further by other contributors. As I see it, it's just a new beginning. At least it's now free of some nonsense that was passed off as historical fact. I have yet to add my sources. I'll get around to that later. Lucretius 02:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mess 

message: After viewing the revised article, John Porter emailed me with these comments (John is author of one of the web pages I have cited):
:I'm not really all that confident in the page you cite: it uses rather out of date sources (cited at the bottom of the page).
:If I were you, I'd consult, e.g., the new Oxford Classical Dictionary, Brill's translation of the junior Pauly Wissowa, or Richardson's book.
:My web page was intended to give an indication of the various units of measurement and their rough equivalents, but I don't regard it as in any way definitive.
In other words, the article as it now stands is to be considered only a rough guide to the topic. So there is still work to be done by anyone wishing to make the article more definitive. The Richardson book that John refers to is:
:Richardson, W.F Numbering and Measuring in the Classical World. Bristol 2004 
Lucretius 07:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further Improvements 

message: Somebody fiddled with the Greek letters apparently in the interests of 'orthography'. Unfortunately it has not worked as many of the Greek letters are now replaced with meaningless squares (or is there something wrong with my browser?). If anyone else is having this problem, I suggest the changes should be deleted. I personally don't see any reason why the article needs Greek letters at all. I can well understand a love of all things Greek but the article doesn't benefit from the self-indulgence of its contributors. Lucretius 03:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously, it is a problem with your browser and/or operating system. I see the polytonic Greek characters perfectly well with the default font settings of the Firefox included in a fresh Ubuntu LiveCD (a freely downloadable OS and browser). Install some decent Unicode fonts with polytonic Greek support or switch to a better browser or operating system. Just because you see squares instead of the correct characters, or just because you have the very peculiar thought that including accurate information about the original-language names of the units described in the article is a mere "self-indulgence" from the part of the contributors (?!), is no valid reason why this fully encyclopedic and necessary info should be deleted. 213.37.6.23 02:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I still think it's self-indulgence despite your supposed outrage. Why is the Greek script necessary? Those of us who read Greek don't need the Greek translation and those who can't read Greek can't understand the translation, so what's the point? If I were to look at an article on Egyptian measurements I would not expect to see the units of measurement expressed in hieroglyphs. It simply clutters the presentation. My suggestion to you is this - create a subsection in the article where all the units are translated into Greek, instead of cluttering the main text. Lucretius 06:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Incidentally, since you do go on about necessary info, you should be aware that you have left out the breathings for some words. I suggest you fix that up first and lecture me afterwards. Lucretius 06:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Orthography?

message: Gnu units lists more than just these units. It cites 
"Weights and Measures: their ancient origins and their                   development in Great Britain up to AD 1855 by FG Skinner"
for these.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Random832 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  more units 

message: Somebody deleted the section on length. I will restore my own edit unless someone else fixes the article first. My edit does not contain Greek script and it also does not contain disputed units (see comment by Donbury above). Lucretius (talk) 07:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion 

message: I don't have access to Greek accents and I can only make use of cut and paste techniques to make up Greek words for units from existing text. Someone else can supply the missing words for volume as the existing text does not cover all the letters needed. This is one example why Greek text is not a good idea as it marginalizes many contributors. Those who think it is necessary can finish the section, if they know the Greek, if they have the computer facility to generate accents and breathings, if they read this, if they can be bothered. That's a lot of ifs. Lucretius (talk) 05:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's why the edit screen links to polytonic orthography, where you can find everything. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Volumes 

message: :How long is the Attic measure "stadion"?
:The measure called "stadion" consists of 600 pous.
:In Athens/Attica 1 pous = 296 mm (see this article, referring to "Measures" in The Oxford Classical Dictionary 2003).
:Therefore the Attic stadion = 177,6 m.
:But isn't the Attic building called stadion = 184,3 m?
:Yes, but please do not mix up the building with the measure!
Thank you.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scepsis (talk • contribs) 10:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your contribution. However, I think your concern is completely unnecessary. The picture of the Athens stadium is merely included for a bit of colour and also to point out an interesting fact about etymology - it is not intended to say anything about the precise length of the Attic unit, stadion. I think your text merely confuses the issue and I'm deleting it. If you are still worried about the picture, delete the picture but please don't add unnecessary text. Thanks (:}) Lucretius (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I just added the Attic lengths into the tables, as examples. --Scepsis (talk) 19:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi again Scepsis. Could you please add the citation for your edit and also it should be an approximation sign, not an equal sign. I've deleted the edit in the meantime. I agree that the OCD supports the measurement you have listed for the pous but personally I don't think you should use this to derive an exact value for the Attic stadion. Thanks again. Lucretius (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, yes, it should be an approx sign, and the source is already mentioned for the Attic/Athenian foot. The Attic stadion then simply derives from this. --Scepsis (talk) 10:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi again Scepsis. Yes, you're right - the citation is already in the introductory paragraph, which makes me wonder why you are doing the math for the reader, converting Attic podes to Attic stadia. Anyhow, it's nice to see someone getting involved. Also don't forget the decimal point. Cheers Lucretius (talk) 23:24, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attic stadion = 177,6 m! 

message: According Rocci's Vocabolario greco-italiano (Roma: Società Anonima Editrice Dante Alighieri, 1951), the column "Gregorian equivalent" in Time table is erratum. According to Rocci, the right table should be as follows:
::
Month       	Greek name	Gregorian equivalent
Hekatombaeon	          	July-Aug
Metageitnion	          	Aug-Sept
Boedromion  	          	Sept-Oct
Puanepsion  	          	Oct-Nov
Maimakteron 	          	Nov-Dec
Poseideon   	          	Dec-Jan
Gamelion    	          	Jan-Feb
Anthesterion	          	Feb-March
Elaphebolion	          	March-April
Mounichion  	          	April-May
Thargelion  	          	May-June
Skirophorion	          	June-July
F.chiodo (talk) 00:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Chiodo! Rocci is definitely in the minority and 1951 is a long time ago! Thanks for your interest and your polite conduct. Cheers Lucretius (talk) 22:43, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Time

message: Hi, I've always read that the Roman foot was thought by the Romans themselves to be 24/25 of the Athenian foot.  It's also somewhat notorious that the Roman foot itself is 296.2 ± 0.5 mm.  How can the Attic foot be itself 296 mm long, then?  Dr. Rottländer gives us an Attic/Olympic foot of 310.60 ± 0.388 mm and an Aeginetan foot of 314.00 ± 0.432 mm.  Who ever came up with the numbers currently on the page?  I'd like to check out those sources, too, before I rush ahead and replace all the values in the page.  Thanks. --Wtrmute (talk) 15:17, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Athenian pous of 296 mm?

message: In the section Length:
:Greek measures of length were based on the relative lengths of parts of the body such as the foot and finger segment.
Greeks measures of length were named after body parts and in most cases were very roughly the size of the part in question. However, this was true in practically every culture on earth before the invention of the metric system. Even though body parts may be used to measure things informally, civilizations that have reached a Middle Bronze-Age level of development usually have physical standards of some sort (see Cubit). At that point the body parts are mere names and rough informal measures.
Perhaps scholars have figured out which Greek units came first, and which later units were derived from earlier units. If so, we would need a reference for that. To just assume that body parts were the basis is original research. Also, to assume that the smallest unit is the basis for the larger units also constitutes original research. And finally, even when societies have a story to explain the origin of a particular unit, even if that story has been enacted into law, scholars are frequently able to determine from archaeological evidence that the story is wrong. Zyxwv99 (talk) 15:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See my comment above. McOoee (talk) 02:44, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original Research 

message: Does anyone object if I change the reference system of this article to list-defined, which puts all the references in the Reference section instead of scattered through the article text? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:46, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  List-defined references? 

message: "aroura (ἄρουρα) 2500 podes = 237.5 m2"
:Arura "The term arura was also used to describe a measure of land in ancient Egypt (similar in manner to the acre), a square of 100 Egyptian cubits each way. This measures 2700m² or 2/3 of an acre"
"Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities": :"ARU´RA (ἄρουρα), a Greek measure of surface, which would appear, from its name, to have been originally the chief land-measure. Herodotus (...) mentions a measure of the same name, which is almost certainly identical. He says that it is a hundred Egyptian cubits in every direction. Now the Egyptian cubit contained nearly 17 3/4 inches (Hussey, Ancient Weights, &c. p. 237); therefore the square of 100 x 17 3/4 inches, i. e. nearly 148 feet, gives approximately the number of square feet (English) in the arura, viz. 21,904. (Wurm, de Pond. &c. p. 94.) The different estimate of Suidas, making it the fourth part of the πλέθρον or 2500 square Greek feet, is erroneous (Hultsch, Metrol. p. 38, n. 4; p. 284)."
Herodotus (2.168):
:"This acre is a square of a hundred Egyptian cubits each way, the Egyptian cubit being equal to the Samian." text original : ἡ δὲ ἄρουρα ἑκατὸν πηχέων ἐστὶ Αἰγυπτίων πάντῃ, ὁ δὲ Αἰγύπτιος πῆχυς τυγχάνει ἴσος ἐὼν τῷ Σαμίῳ.
:"hamma (ἅμμα) 60 podes = 18.5 m" 
ἅμμα 
:"1. knot (...)
:6. measure of length (like our chain), = 40 πήχειςIs 
Is hamma related to chain? Pilot Pirx (talk) 17:32, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  aroura 

message: was banned in 2005 from all articles dealing with weights and measurements and after frequent violations indefinitely blocked. He has come back recenty editing from two accounts and several IP addresses. Those accounts are now blocked. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rktect. Dougweller (talk) 07:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: for something like ancient metrology where the scattering of unreliable literary notices have to be verified and contrasted to lots of a field data. This article very much needs to be rebuilt 
:(a) using a more modern source (1, 2, &c.)
:(b) giving the full range of values (at minimum including the max and min of the unit ranges) to avoid the present illusion of the existence of a single system accurate to the tenth of the millimeter, which is risible
:(c) if we're only giving the range to the foot and no other units, then the multiples need to be of the foot and not the digit
:(d) give glosses for more terms (e.g., kondylos)
:(e) if we're giving a single unit, use the Attic foot and not whatever odd hybrid has been chosen here instead
See palm's section on ancient Greek for examples and modern citations. — LlywelynII 20:53, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: 1850 was a looooong time ago

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I have seen the use of drachma and oboli as liquid measures.  Anyone knowledgeable like to comment on this?  Should these small volumes be included here?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Droopyfeathers (talk • contribs) 20:31, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small Volumes