Talk:Deus ex machina

message: The last two paragraphs are completely useless, in my opinion. I suggest deletion for them.
:I agree. The bit about Battlestar Galactica strikes me as original research--or something in that kind--where are the references to support such 'arguing'? --Anzuhan (talk) 07:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur that Battlestar Galactica should be removed as an example of the subject. It's a matter of opinion and there's strong dissent to it. The specifics are best left to the appropriate BSG page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheLastBrainLeft (talk • contribs) 17:40, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last two paragraphs.

message: I cleansed most of the examples because none of them improved the article.  They were simply arbitrarily-chosen examples from modern fiction.  I left the opera example in place because it illustrated another use of 'deus ex machina' that was not otherwise explained.  Chris Croy (talk) 17:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleansing

message: "...The term is a negative one, and it often implies a lack of skill on the part of the writer." I believe the source didn't give enough explaination about why the use of a DEM showed the writer has "no skill". Please try to repair with adequite sources.--SpartaGeek23 (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have edited out the "bad writer" reference and the source. anyone else can replace if suitable evidence can be found that all writers who use a Deus Ex Machina are horrible.--SpartaGeek23 (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not that the writers who use it are bad or lack skill, necessarily.  It's just a lazy way to do things that's less satisfying to the audience: presenting them with a puzzle and when they can't figure it out, say "Oh, by the way, I changed the rules".--Loodog (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Negative Connotation of DEM

message: Should his penchant for DEM endings be mentioned? --96.52.132.224 (talk) 22:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but we do need one clear example to demonstrate the subject.--Loodog (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that if we have ANY sort of 'list' of examples, well-meaning fans will endlessly add examples of DEM that don't improve the article.  This would be a prime example: How would this article be better by mentioning "Steven King uses it a lot"?  Would anyone familiar with the concept look at the article and say to themselves, "The bastards!  They forgot about King!"?  But I agree: If someone would add a single, solid, well-known modern use in a paragraph of prose, that would be great. Chris Croy (talk) 02:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The classic Stephen King example is in the Dark Tower series where he, as the author of the book, places medicine in a medicine cabinet for a character as a penance.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.27.111.130 (talk) 17:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

text: I thought the Superman example was good.  It was an obvious and well-known Deus ex machina.--Loodog (talk) 20:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  It's well-known and pretty much everyone has the exact same reaction when first exposed to it: "...he flies so fast he turns back time?  wtf?" You want to add it back in or shall I? Chris Croy (talk) 20:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I put it back and added a HTML comment to users to not examples without discussion on the talk page.--Loodog (talk) 20:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Wasn't his ability alluded to earlier in the movie?  It's been a while, but as I recall, Jor-El's recording specifically warns him not to travel through time, implying that he has the ability to begin with. Caswin (talk) 23:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "It is forbidden to interfere with earth's history".  If that somehow conveys to the audience, "Superman has the ability to time travel," it's only in the vaguest possible way.--Loodog (talk) 00:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's the one.  It's certainly not very clear-cut, but it's still meant as foreshadowing, as supported by how the movie revisits the warning just before Superman does exactly that.  And while I doubt many people at all could have seen it coming, it didn't just come out of nowhere, either.  If the Superman example remains, I propose that it should be amended to reflect this. Caswin (talk) 03:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Re Steve King and the DEM plot resolution device: I think a prime example of King's use of DEM (there are many others; I choose this one because it is most salient) is in 'The Stand'. All the characters, good and evil are assembled for some sort of showdown and POW! the hand of God intervenes. This is a pretty clear example of DEM to me, especially given that God Himself helps to bring the novel to its conclusion~~Ursito  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.28.110.21 (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's not the hand of God - it's a nuclear device being detonated!Vonbontee (talk) 09:47, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Stephen King

message: I came here from RfC. I cannot see what you want comments on. Will someone please either summarise the issue requiring comment, or else remove the tag? AndyJones (talk) 12:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since mine is the only comment in five days, and it hasn't been answered, I've removed the tag. AndyJones (talk) 07:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comment

message: An example was certainly made for this article as it uses the actual phrase "deus ex machina": near the fin of the movie Dodgeball, the winning's from Peter's bet on the championship game are brought on court in a treasure chest bearing a plaque with the phrase "deus ex machina" on it. The money is, of course, probably the most perfect example of deus ex machina ever contrived as it solves a multitude of plot issues (such as salvaging Peter and Steve's friendship, redeeming Peter's for leaving the team thinking that any attempt to beat Globo Gym would be futile, and by offering the protagonist the ability to undo the antagonist by giving the former ownership over Globo Gym, which Peter turns into a bigger and better Average Joe's Gymnasium), and the example should be included in this article not simply because of its effective use of the device, but for its actual use of the phrase in the film. --Mierk (talk) 23:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Single Greatest Example Ever Contrived by Modern Man 

message: In modern times, deus ex machina is often used on purpose in the comedy and parody media.  For example, in Mel Brooks' History of the World, Part I, several otherwise-inescapable situations in the two main stories of the film were solved through the sudden appearance of a white horse named "Miracle".
I feel as though Magnolia is being sorely overlooked, for even though the <Spoiler> frog-rain </Spoiler> doesn't end the movie directly, it does trigger the dramatic upheaval which brings each of the film's major characters together. The fact that they fell from the sky and are a shock to every character also certainly lends validity to this example.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.187.44.44 (talk) 10:29, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  One more mention of ''deus ex machina'' 

message: As far as modern movies, Star Wars is a great example, as they always end up saved somehow. For example, in Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, just as the jedi are surrounded by droids, the new Clone Army drops in in their machines.
———
I think this example should be used. --Kitch (Talk : Contrib) 20:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  One more example of ''deus ex machina'' 

message: As seen via a google search everywhere, there is a "machine" by that name (hybrid motorcycle thing... go look on youtube) : 
http://gizmodo.com/5038876/yamaha-branded-deus-ex-machina-motorcycle-exoskeleton-on-video-looks-tron+esque 
http://gizmodo.com/392816/yamaha-branded-deus-ex-machina-motorcycle-exoskeleton-a-segway-on-steroids 
I suggest that the a disambiguation notice is in order, for a separate article; for all I know, Wikipedia has one somewhere for this machine >.< 68.185.167.117 (talk) 01:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The literary use is the most familiar and commonly used. The bike article would need to be disambiguated in its article title, and a note added to the top of this one, but it's unnecessary to move at all. DionysosProteus (talk) 12:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The machine 

message: While his work is good, at the present time he is not mentioned in any reliable sources. Just because he may have 100 subscribers does not mean that his series is notable. Anyway, the guy won't even finish the series. For a more knowledgeable and relaxed Wikipedia- Nemesis646 (talk) 09:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: DigitalPh33r's series does not contain any examples of dues ex machina thus far. It gets it's name because it is a machinima made using the game "Deus Ex", and it's tiltle is therefore a pun. 70.181.215.208 (talk) 02:27, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do NOT create DigitalPh33r links or mentions here 

message: It has previously been discussed, that the plot of Donnie Darko is based around the DEM plot device. What i find interesting is, at the ending of the movie when Donnie has a knife to his neck, he actually says "Deus ex Machina" out loud, as the car comes to his rescue. I found it quite ironic that he says it out loud. It's almost as if the director's having a laugh at Mainstream cinema.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.209.100.22 (talk) 09:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donnie Darko 

message: I'm failing to see how the Stephanie Meyer book "Breaking Dawn" contains a deus ex machina. The events are foreshadowed well. If no one objects, I'll be removing "Breaking Dawn" as a see also example. Killswitch Engage (talk) 05:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breaking Dawn 

message: Going with the request that examples be discussed here first, I think the ending of Transformers 2 could well qualify (Spoilers ahead)
The main human character has died, a medic uses defibrilator pads to revive him and fails, he is dead with no apparent way of coming back. Cut to some sort of dream sequence where the character is floating in the clouds and is told by a god like transformer in the clouds that he has done good. Bang, back to the real world and he jumps up to carry on the story with no sign he just nearly died. Given that there is litteraly a machine 'god' in the sky which appears from nowhere and solves the problem, I'm tempted to think this is deliberate (except that might be a touch sophisticated for Michael Bay)--ThePaintedOne (talk) 16:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transformers 2 

message: I'm not very clear on deus ex machina, but would the person at the end of The Hobbit count? You would be 100% sure that Bilbo would kill Smaug, but it's some random person who had used a single arrow in Smaug's (left?) breast. Correct or incorrect?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.214.86 (talk) 02:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Hobbit 

message: I think this is overemphasing Wikipedia's need for proof. An unbelievable situation needs no one saying 'this is unbelievable'. An unbelievable situation remains unbelievable. Ok, it might help for some critic to denounce a plot as unbelievable but most people know a plot is unbelievable and the solution has come from nowhere.  78.146.246.181 (talk) 11:35, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  If you think it is Deus ex machina it is. 

message: Considering the number of times DEM is used in deliberate ways for comedic or ironic purposes would be a good idea to add a "comedic use of DEM" section? Numerous people want to add Mel Brooks or Dodgeball as examples. Another example is the MST3K episode Mitchell in which Joel escapes the Satellite of Love via a never heretofore known escape pod called the Deus Ex Machina (though Mike butchered the pronunciation). This seems like it might resolve some of the issues raised on this page.
Furthermore, I think it would in fact add to an understanding of what DEM is, since this has become its dominate use in mainstream film, books, etc... While DEM does seem to have a negative connotation to it, a plot device can be neither good or bad, it is just chosen by the creator. When chosen by a creator becuase they backed themselves into a corner and couldn't do anything else, then, yes, it is lazy. However, when used for comedic or ironic purposes, this is a completely valid use of the plot device since it is deliberate, obvious and often enjoyed by the audience, which is, of course, the purpose of comedy. In addition, it also serves as a meta-fiction, commenting on the ridiculousness of the DEM device as used previously. So I would suggest adding a section on that type of use. This would also help avoid confusion between different ways in which the device is used.--Priamus2020 (talk) 00:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comedic/Ironic DEM is needed 

message: In the novel and play The Bad Seed the mother realizes that she has passed a genetic bad seed from her serial–killer mother on to her serial-killer 8–year–old daughter. She unsuccessfully tries to kill both herself and the child, but only succeeds in killing herself, leaving her daughter alive to continue to kill and to pass on the bad seed. However, the Hays Code would not permit movies in which crime was successful. Both suicide and murder were crimes, so in the 1956 film the ending of the story was changed to have the mother survive her suicide attempt and, more important here, a completely new deus ex machina final scene was created in which the daughter goes out on a dock in a rainstorm to try to recover the fruits of her crime and is killed by a lightning bolt. The new ending for the movie totally reversed the climax of the book and play and is one of the greatest modern examples of deus ex machina. Could we include the film as an example in the article, perhaps in a sentence saying something about deus ex machina sometimes being forced on drama by external forces? I haven't been bold on this one because this article seems fairly well tuned at this point and I wanted others to have a chance to comment first. TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 15:23, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Bad Seed 

message: Surely the Sleeping God at the end of The Night's Dawn Trilogy (Peter F. Hamilton)---who rather magically makes everything OK again after three books' worth of almost continual disaster---is a perfect, honest (non-ironic) DEM?  150.203.35.113 (talk) 06:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Naked God 

message: In Avatar, half the movie is dedicated to explaining how the Na'vi and the entire Pandoran biosphere works together, so how could this be DEM? It is only a logical response from the eco-system to attack the invaders, and it had been hinted many times that it everything was working and thinking together. Then main character even asked for it to happen. 
It does not sound like DEM to me.
ItWasThatGuy! (talk) 15:24, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avatar 

message: I'd suggest making a reference to the 2001 film donnie darko in which he actually mutters the words DEM due to the fact that he's in a subsequent tangent unniverse. http://www.themoviegoer.com/donnie_darko.htm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.159.17 (talk) 07:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donnie Darko 

message: Surely one of the best known, and an extreme example of, is where Brian falls from a tower and is saved by a passing space ship. Mannafredo (talk) 11:57, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Life of Brian 

message: I don't think either qualifies as a deus ex machina and should be removed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilkyisdashiznit (talk • contribs) 04:47, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beerfest and the Natural 

message: The first paragraph seemed messed up, so I changed it back to what it was a few edits ago.  I saved the messed up part, as it seemed to be part of another section:
A deus ex machina ( or ,Random House Dictionary ==Ancient uses==
The Greek tragedian Euripides is often criticized for his frequent use of the deus ex machina. More than half of Euripides's extant tragedies employ a deus ex machina in their resolution and some critics go so far as to claim that Euripides invented the deus ex |title=The Arabian Nights Reader|first=Ulrich|last=Marzolph|publisher=Wayne State University Press|year=2006|isbn=0814332595|pages=241–2}}</ref> Just when Harun is about to have Ja'far executed for his failure, a deus ex machina occurs when the murderer suddenly reveals himself, claiming to be the woman's husband.
Daedalus733 (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  First Paragraph 

message: The Natural and Pineapple Express are not examples of DEM. Neither is Dodgeball, really, but its writers seemed to think so. DEM properly comes at the end of a narrative and features a character unseen up to that point. Ifnkovhg (talk) 04:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did some "modern" pruning 

message: Episode [1x19] of the TV series  Lost bears the title  "Deus Ex Machina". In a nutshell, the survivors of the plane crash find a previously unnoticed seaplane perched in the jungle canopy, which miraculously  contains a functioning radio. Unfortunately, just as they manage to make contact with their potential rescuers, the plane falls, destroying the radio. In my opinion, this is an extremely well-executed example of both dramatic irony and deus ex machina. After all, if the plane had not fallen, the survivors would have been able to relay their position to their rescuers, and the plot would be resolved. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it should be noted here for further reference. Perhaps a section on irony in combination with deus ex machina could be added to the article, if more examples can be found. 70.181.149.37 (talk) 04:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deus ex machina in Lost 

message: The editors of this page will know whether this is relevant or not but the satirical film (and book) Thank You For Smoking contains a hilarious (and clever) scene that highlights the cringe-worthy use of DEM in cinema.
Jeff Megall: Sony has a futuristic sci-fi movie they're looking to make.
Nick Naylor: Cigarettes in space?
Jeff Megall: It's the final frontier, Nick.
Nick Naylor: But wouldn't they blow up in an all oxygen environment?
Jeff Megall: Probably. But it's an easy fix. One line of dialogue. 'Thank God we invented the... you know, whatever device.'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427944/quotes
Use at your leisure.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.115.253 (talk) 11:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a world of difference between a DEM and a lampshade.--Louiedog (talk) 19:30, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thank You For Smoking 

message: Removed this from the examples as it's a previously set-up rescue, not a deus ex machina. The source used was from an author's personal web site. The screenwriter himself explains why it's not a DEM in the Creative Screenwriting podcast 29th Oct 2010 edition. Jumble Jumble (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 11:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Toy Story 3 

message: My research indicates that the phrase is not from Horace's poem. Rather, the Oxford English Dictionary says that the Latin phrase is a translation of a Greek phrase.
You can search Horace's poem for the phrase here:
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/horace/arspoet.shtml
but you will not find it.
I am unsure about how to go about correcting wikipedia.
Cheers,
Paul.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.130.104 (talk) 05:55, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect Attribution of the Phrase to Horace 

message: Wiktionary has the standard classic pronunciation: IPA: /ˈdɛ.ʊs/ (Sort of like "day-oos", but shorter) I've always heard this pronounced the classical way also. Should we add an alternate pronunciation with the correct/classical way?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.116.87.110 (talk) 20:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Could someone who knows the topic fix that, or erase the entire section? Cuardin (talk) 12:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The chapter on Piano in the Bushes does not end in a complete sentence... 

message: I remember the movie Mars  Attacks! has a thoroughly ridiculous example, when the attacking Martians, with advanced technology, amazing weapons that can absorb a nuclear missile and convert it into a balloon etc, start blowing up whenever a Slim Whitman musical number is played! This finally saves the earth-lings. I thought it was neat, in keeping with the rather crass, yet subtle spirit of the movie. Is it worth a mention?
NarasMG (talk) 06:03, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  One more example in a film.... 

message: The translation "god out of the machine" seems to be wrong. It should be "god in the machine" or "from/of the machine", like "ex libris". So "a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention" of a supposed "god in/of the machine", not from outside.
You could call "the market" in economics a deus ex machina.
:Janosabel (talk) 19:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation 

message: Mass effect can be added to the video game section of this article  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julian Grebe (talk • contribs) 08:43, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mass effect 3 ending 

message: An awesome, shameless use of DEM can be found in "The Angry Beavers" S4 E7 "Moby Dopes" where Norbert and Daggit are saved from a rampaging Killer Whale by a tyrannosaurus rex.
Norbert: Where in the name of deus ex machina did that T-Rex come from? 
118.209.130.77 (talk) 04:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another Example in Animation 

message: just wanting to see if it's really noteworthy to point out that China isn't "China" in China & that "deus ex machina" is logically identical to those little stickers on the bottom of various goods that says...
"made in China"
pointless?  not really.  ironic?  totally.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.218.93.150 (talk) 07:25, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  It came from China? 

message: Only on Wikipedia could an article about a literary device provide as illustrations Greek tragedy and The Lord of the Flies, on the one hand, and a "Simpsons" episode on the other!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Partnerfrance (talk • contribs) 19:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only on Wikipedia 

message: Should Stargate SG-1's use of the idea that a third shot from a Zat'nik'tel disintegrates a target be mentioned. They only used it to dispose of a body in season 2 and stopped talking about it afterward. -William slattery (talk) 23:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stargate SG-1 

message: Eagles can see a rat one mile away. Apply it to a hypothetical giant eagle and you have a one hundred mile long vision. Add to it the fact that Gandalf knew exactly where Frodo and Sam were (Mount Doom) and the hope that they were still alive and it was not only POSSIBLE but TOO EASY to the Eagles finding the Hobbits.
Therefore stop calling this scene a Deus Ex Machina because it isn't. 189.81.74.9 (talk) 20:06, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, stop mentioning a blatant example of Deus Ex Machina because of some weird scientific reason that doesn't change neither the fact that the eagles appear out of nowhere nor the fact that the whole climax wouldn't have happened, had they appeared earlier.  How does it not match the definition given in the article as "a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object." 85.181.2.80 (talk) 14:45, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. It is true that the Eagles serve as Deus ex Machina. 2. Within the context of Eagles appearing, it is no (further) miracle that the Hobbits are actually found. 3. That this is so does not mean that the Eagles are not a Deus ex Machina. 4. By the way, there is a compelling internal reason, not only "needed for the plot", that the Eagles do not simply transport the ring there. Namely, that would have been an open attack and Sauron would have brought them down with his superior force, capturing the ring and all.--131.159.76.236 (talk) 22:51, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Return Of The King 

message: Shouldn't the game Deus Ex be in this line under computer games.
At the end of part one you're defeated or has to surrender and you end up in a cell.
Then suddenly Daedelus hacks the door. 
The name of the game is also a reference to this subject.
193.11.163.141 (talk) 17:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deus ex 

message: Happy new year.  I've reinstated the example, linking the reference.  I have also added a reference to Eucatastrohe and a quote of Tolkien's where he describes the eagles as 'machine' (in quotes). 85.181.4.145 (talk) 14:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Much appreciated, though I did reword the paragraph slightly to remove the last remnants of POV. I hope you can see why we were such sticklers in demanding reliable sources, and why 10,000 assorted blog entries count for absolutely nothing. And I also hope you got some satisfaction from putting in the effort and building an objective and robust case. ...Now the onus is on me and others to find a solid source that refutes Professor Chance's position.  (Although you're welcome to help with that too, of course.) Little by little we make progress. Happy New Year, 85.181.4.145! Kind regards, nagualdesign (talk) 16:03, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!  You will see that I slightly reworked it once more to make clear why Eucatastrophe is mentioned in this context, because your edit obscured the connection.  The work on this item made me find another interesting reference on the relation between this and DEM, so I added the reference to both articles.  I think that now we have the whole of this specific topic covered.  I'm not sure I buy that any reader is helped by requiring references for obvious examples, but I learnt that having a "good" reference certainly helps when people don't see as obvious what I see as obvious :)  Happy new year again. 85.181.4.145 (talk) 16:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm... Now it's beginning to look like you're applying undue weight, since at the moment we lack any mention of counter arguments (which we know to exist in relative abundance). Tolkien himself certainly did not equate eucatastrophe with deus ex machina, hence his coining of the term, though the section now appears to assert the opposite. Try to remember, this isn't a battle of wits in which one set of editors vehemently fight for one point of view while another set fight for the opposite, and expect that to produce a neutral article. We must all strive for WP:NPOV together. In answer to your question, it is WP policy to demand good references for this kind of thing, as is stating the obvious. Perhaps if you let go of what you consider obvious and embrace a more objective stance you will better serve Wikipedia, as well as gaining a better understanding of any given subject (and even of yourself). Now there's a thought! nagualdesign (talk) 17:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

text: ...Actually, in the spirit of stating the obvious perhaps I should spell out here the difference between eucatastrophe and deus ex machina. (And I urge you to read this carefully, and with fresh eyes.) In eucatastrophe a sudden change of events occurs which saves the hero. These events were foreshadowed earlier in the work, and the agents of eucatastrophe were well established. In Tolkien's works they often represent 'the will of the gods', to put it crudely, as is the case with the eagles. Deus ex machina also involves a sudden change of events which occurs which saves the hero, but these events are not foreshadowed, and the agents of change are conjured ex nihilo, without previous mention. They don't necessarily embody 'the will of the gods', despite their Latin nomenclature. So you see (I hope), they are similar in some ways, but very different in actual fact. Does this help at all? nagualdesign (talk) 18:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Consider this reference: "Eucatastrophe is not synonymous with deus ex machina (literally 'god in the machine'), which is an implausible or inept plot device used to escape a storyline quagmire, nor is it used merely for commercial appeal. Rather eucatastrophe makes the bold claim that the arc of human history ultimately curves toward justice, restoration, and hope. From this perspective, rescue comes not from a conveniently inserted god but is part of the very fabric of a fictive world. The approach is easily distinguished from films that seek to demonstrate the gritty realism of human existence, such as one might find in film noir."  Mangoe (talk) 19:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added this into the article and reworded once again to provide balance. I also removed one of the references to The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy as it was a redundant duplicate. So, now that all the hard work is done we are left, as expected, with an example of DEM in an article about DEM that is merely a pseudo-example. If others think it interesting enough to leave in then I won't complain any further. Personally I think, as I stated way up there ^^, that it doesn't provide an adequate, unambiguous example whatsoever. However, since the Interwebs are replete with people who blindly believe that Peter Jackson somehow committed the sin of deus ex machina, because they haven't read the books (and perhaps lack the attention span to watch a 3-hour film without getting woefully distracted, I half-jest) then at least they might find something of interest here. Everyone happy? nagualdesign (talk) 21:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me.  I believe the definition of eucatastrophe given falls well into the range of what constitutes a deus ex machina, but I guess in the current version the reader can form their own opinion on this.  I think a lot of the back and forth took place simply because "deus ex machina" is associated with "bad composition" automatically, and some people like their Tolkien a lot.  This is to be contrasted with the two references I gave: they are fully sympathetic towards Tolkien, yet they are very clear in calling the eagles DEM.  Concerning the attention span of the various web-critics who have labeled divine creatures falling from the sky in the most convenient moment DEM, well, I don't think we have to pursue this further :)  Bye, and thanks!  85.181.1.195 (talk) 10:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: =Arbitrary break for [[eucatastrophe]]

message: I propose that Lord of the Flies be removed from the examples, or the reference be heavily rewritten. Though the source is solid it does not simply state that the ending of the book is DEM. In fact it goes on to say:
:What Golding calls the "gimmicked" ending of Lord of the Flies and the Greek deus ex machina used most conventionally in Iphigenia in Tauris are alike in their technical function: to reverse the course of impending disaster. Yet their effects are quite different. Athena's wisdom is incontrovertible, her morality unassailable. High above the awed mortals she dispels chaos and imposes ideal order. The very fact of her appearance underlies the role of the gods in shaping human destiny. Golding's spiffy naval officer is, however, no god. Nor does he represent a higher morality. Confronted by the ragtag melee, he can only wonder that English boys hadn't put up a better show, and mistakes their savage hunt for fun and games à la Coral Island. While he cannot know the events preceding his arrival, his comments betray the same ignorance of human nature that contributed to the boys' undoing. Commanding his cruiser, the officer will direct a maritime search-and-destroy mission identical to the island hunt. Lord of the Flies ends with the officer gazing at the cruiser, preparing to reenact the age-old saga of man's inhumanity to man.
As noted in William Golding, the author fought in the Royal Navy during WWII onboard a destroyer, and was briefly involved in the pursuit and sinking of the Bismarck. It's hardly a stretch of the imagination to concede that the ending to Lord of the Flies was indeed a plot device (ie, "gimmick"), but one based on his wanting to make a deep sociopolitical statement, not the shallow 'cop-out' that the article currently implies. Using it as an example of deus ex machina demonstrates great ignorance unbefitting of an encyclopedia. nagualdesign (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that earlier in the passage Friedman says that "the officer is neither more nor less than the Greek deus ex machina in modern uniform." Friedman's argument is rather involved but I think it would be accurate to say that he holds that the arrival of the navy officers has the same effect within the plot, but because they are not god-like, this effect is also necessarily not god-like. It would be good to get another source on this to corroborate/supplement it, given Golding's admission that this is something of a weakness. Surely Friedman isn't the only source. (BTW, please be more careful with the citations, folks. Harold Bloom didn't write this text; he was only the editor of the book.) Mangoe (talk) 20:02, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The way I read it was that Friedman was elucidating both sides of the debate. He first states that Golding's 'admission' of the "gimmick" ending has been used by his detractors as a means of bashing him, then goes on to delineate the differences between the ending and classical deus ex machina. It can't really be said that Friedman holds either camp as being right or wrong, only that he provides a discourse on the subject. Therefore, to quote Friedman's paraphrasing of Golding's detractors as Friedman's opinion, and then to state that opinion in Wikipedia's voice, is misrepresenting of the source. Moreover, a gimmick is simply a device intended to attract attention. Unfortunately the word is synonymous with contrivance, a device that gives a sense of artificiality. Golding 'admitted' the former, not the latter. nagualdesign (talk) 20:30, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "the way I read it" should be ringing alarm bells. There's plenty of indication in Friedman's words which tell us that there are other analyses out there which address the ending and its defects or virtues as a DEM; it's time to go looking for them rather than rely on boiling down an extended argument. Mangoe (talk) 20:46, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I was simply conceding my own fallibility. Was Friedman elucidating both sides of the debate? Yes, he definitely was (stated nagualdesign, self-assuredly). Friedman does not argue that the ending is DEM, he actually goes on to describe how the ending is much more nuanced than that. nagualdesign (talk) 21:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Lord of the Flies'' 

message: I've taken out the section about the infinite improbability drive from Hitchhiker's guide because it is uncited and because I don't see that a citation is going to be forthcoming. But don't let me stop anyone from finding a real reference for the claim. Mangoe (talk) 14:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infinitely improbable 

message: It seems ironic that asimov's fascination and use of deus ex machina in the Foundation series and I, Robot is not included in this article.  The irony of its use in I,Robot where Asimov seems to take its more literal meaning and the irony of its omission in Wikipedia the modern realization of azimov's Encyclopedia Galactica from his Foundation series are notable.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.244.79 (talk) 02:01, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asimov and ironic use of deus ex machina 

message: I added an entry into modern examples of Deus ex machina, yet it was removed today. Can you enlighten me as to why this example should have been removed? Frankly, I find the "modern examples" section interesting -- if the examples there are good. Yet it appears as though others have listed examples that have later been removed. Sure, perhaps one doesn't want 50 examples here, that isn't really necessary. But there are so few modern examples currently, that there really is room for more.
Here is what I added yesterday, please enlighten me as to why this shouldn't be in the list:
At the end of the film "Jurassic Park" (1993), Grant, Sattler, Tim and Lex are cornered by two Velociraptors in the Visitor Center. Suddenly a Tyrannosaurus appears from off-screen, attacking and killing the Velociraptors allowing Grant and everyone to escape. Not only was the Tyrannosaurus too large to enter through any doors of the Visitor Center, it was unmotivated and didn't allow the ultimate confrontation between man and Velociraptor to be solved by the characters in the story. Classic deus ex machina.
76.175.167.85 (talk) 03:54, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Because your own authority in analyzing this is insufficient. You need to be able to cite some reputable critic who gives this analysis, and really, it needs to be more than one person's eccentric idea. Mangoe (talk) 12:29, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jurassic Park 

message: Hi everyone-
I wanted to introduce myself. I am taking a look at this page and editing it for my graduate theater history class at Brooklyn College. Here is a list of my proposed edits based on research that I am doing. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!
Structure (sections should be flushed out more and organized better)
a. Origins, Greek, Roman (if any), Renaissance, Neoclassical, Modern, etc.
2. Discussion on Aristotle, Horace, and any other critic
3. Flush out the examples
a. Shakespeare uses it (does he)-how?
4. Influence over theater
a. Why do we care?
5. More/better pictures
a. Possibly a timeline
6. Term usage
a. Do we still use the term to discuss magical plot endings? Has a
different term been coined?
Jsattler07 (talk) 17:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ideas about Edits 

message: As someone noted above, the list of examples could use extension.  Is there something wrong with mentioning Donnie Darko?  It's a great example, it's talked a lot about above.  If it's any help, the director Richard Kelly had an extended scene directly addressing the mechanism that had to get cut out of the film because it was too lengthy.  It's on the deleted scenes of the original DVD. Squish7 (talk) 04:28, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donnie Darko 

message: māchina f ‎(genitive māchinae); first declension
# machine
# scheme, plan, machination
Literally from Latin: machination from god, scheme from god, plan from god. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davedudie (talk • contribs)
:While machina may indeed mean "scheme" or "plan", your translation is still back to front! It says "god from the machine", or "god from (the) plan" at a push, but not "plan from god". I'm going to revert your edit once more. Please do not edit the article again unless you can provide a reference to back up your assertion. nagualdesign 21:49, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, however. Languages don't translate straight like that. It clearly makes more sense with "plan from god" and isn't back to front at all. I thought wikipedia was collaborative?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davedudie (talk • contribs) 00:59, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: To be perfectly honest, I have a strong feeling that you know even less about Latin than you do about Wikipedia. Yes, this is indeed collaborative, hence the three of us (Vítor, Davedudie and nagualdesign) thrashing this one out. Let me ask you a simple question; What makes you think that Deus ex machina means "Plan from god"? Did you read it somewhere? And if so, where? Wikipedia relies on reliable references. nagualdesign 15:40, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: =Noun

message: Tolkien's concept of 'eucatastrophe' has nothing to do with 'deus ex machina'. It is a sudden turn in a story, but typically one that has been earned. The example Tolkien gives is this, from The Black Bull of Norroway:
Seven years I served for thee:
The glassy hill I clomb for thee:
The bluidy shirt I wrang for thee:
And wilt thou not wauken and turn to me?
He heard, and turned to her.
The material I have removed, conflating this concept with 'deus ex machina', contains no evidence that either Tolkien, or anybody else, believed that the two concepts had anything in common.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChengduTeacher (talk • contribs) 04:41, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tolkien, eucatastrophe, cleanup and removal 

message: I didn't know until today that "Deus Ex Machina" means "god FROM the machine". I guess I should've caught the "ex", but I didn't. What is the word for a god who has made the universe as a clockwork automaton? The goal of making an automaton is that it require no intervention once it has been created, wound up, and set to running, but will do what it is supposed to do guided ONLY by the clockwork driving it. If you believe in that kind of god, you believe it is a kind of blasphemy to say that God intervenes. If the Universe that God made was perfect from the git-go, everything that was ever going to happen was willed by that God into the Big Bang (or similar event) at the moment timulled was pe began. God would need to fix something only if God's design wasn't perfect. So what is the name for this conception of a god (the Deist god, the God AS Machine, not God FROM Machine) and would you consider posting a disambiguation-link at the top if the phrase for that is sufficiently similar to "Deus Ex Machina"?74.64.104.99 (talk) 11:09, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question about Deism 

message: In "Oliver Twist," the fact that Rose is his aunt is central to the plot -- not a last-minute addition to resolve a problem.  His grandfather recognizes early that there is something familiar about Oliver's appearance.  The story is not about a poor boy who gets lucky, but of a wronged boy who is restored to his rightful place.  A large portion of the story is devoted to the machinations of the other heir who seeks to deny Oliver of his inheritance.  The fact that Rose is his aunt is central to the plot and without that fact, major portions of the book would need to be removed entirely.  Dickens has a habit of revealing such hidden facts until the end of the story, but I don't think this is what the DEM phrase is meant to convey.2600:1700:51B3:5630:D92B:8D1D:A02:9729 (talk) 04:29, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oliver - reference to DEM might be incorrect 

message: I can't decide if I like the informal tone of "At the end, Heracles shows up"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgrrr (talk • contribs) 22:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "At the end, Heracles shows up"