Talk:Torah in Islam

message: The first paragraph needs some serious attention re: punctuation.
Also, if you quote the Quran, show where it is quoted from; don't present it as fact, esp. in an extremely formal English.
The whole paragraph is a ramble now, and needs drastic improvement. I'm sure there are some good thoughts there, but I doubt they belong in the introduction and it is not quite clear what they are.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.38.193.168 (talk) 23:36, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is written very poorly 

message: Why did you think my revision was misleading?  If it's in regard to the semantics of Tawrat/Torah, what I added was my experience in reading and talking with others (I'm an English speaker only). But I did make sure to include the other side. I really want to come to an agreement on this article.  --JBJ830726 20:51, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading Revision (?) 

message: I also want to add that Jesus was given the Tawrat and that Muhammad was written of in the Tawrat (Surah 7.157).  I'm relatively new with wikis and have never had a discussion, so please excuse my inexperience.--JBJ830726 21:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  And . . . 

message: In my experience, in English, Muslims use Torah and Tawrat virtually interchangeable. I have heard Muslims make a distinction like you do, Mpatel, but rarely and few Muslims follow this usage.  Keep in mind, English only.   As far as my understanding, Torah is an English translation of Tawrat. Note that in Pickthall's translation of the Qur'an, he always uses Torah. (Yusuf Ali always uses Law and Shakir always uses Taurat.) Here are a couple uses of Torah as the original book:
"Sinai is the place where the Prophet Moses spoke to God and received the Torah." IslamOnline.net
"The knowledge of the true Torah was with the Ahl al-Bayt" al-islam.org
In Arabic, there is no word for the Torah other than Tawrat (at least at the time of Muhammad). Jews used Tawrat to refer to their modern text.  In Surah 3.93, Shakir translates "Say: Bring then the Taurat and read it, if you are truthful." The Qur'an is teaching Muslims to tell Jews to bring the Tawrat/Taurat which they could not do if the Tawrat did not reffer to the modern (that is, modern at Muhammad's time) text. (We know from ancient manuscripts that the Torah was not changed between Muhamad's time and the present. Thus the Tawrat Shakir translates is the same as in synagogues.) Abu Dawud's hadith Book 38 Number 4434 says the same.  (BTW, you don't have to accept Dawud as authoritative in Islam as some Muslims don't, only that the word Tawrat was used to refer to the modern text.)
However, I do agree it would be nice if everyone used Torah and Tawrat differently because it would make discussions clearer.  However, the I think the fact is that modern English speaking Muslims (and non-Muslims, for that matter) do not, nor does the Qur'an or hadith make a distinction. My philosophy is that usage, not idealism, defines words.  Perhaps we have a difference in philosophy?
--JBJ830726 00:55, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More info on '''Tawrat''' vs '''Torah'''

message: Hi JBJ830726. I appreciate your points regarding common and modern uses of the words Tawrat and Torah. We may have a difference of philosophy, but in an encyclopedia, different viewpoints on any given topic have to be made. Hence, I think some sort of compromise can be made. Let me explain thus. Firstly, Tawrat (according to the Qur'an) is the original revelation given to Moses. I want this point to be made absolutely clear at the start of the article, i.e. that according to the Qur'an, the original revelation given to Moses is called the Tawrat. The bolded statement is not an opinion, it's a fact. The Jews (and possibly others) call what they believe was the original revelation given to Moses the Torah. A lot of Islamic (and other) websites simply say that Tawrat is only a translation of Torah. If I remember correctly, 'Tawrat' and 'Torah' stand for the same word, namely, Law (given to Moses). However, and I think we've reached the source of our disagreement here, what Muslims and some non-Muslims consider to be the Law (given to Moses) are different. It is standard Islamic belief that the Torah is regarded as a corruption of the Tawrat. This is one of the reasons I created this article, to clear up these misconceptions about what Muslims believe regarding the Tawrat (and Torah). Of course, non-Islamic views on what the Tawrat is can be included in a section in this article. In a nutshell:
* Tawrat is a translation of Torah which means Law.
* Muslims believe that the present day Torah is a corruption of the true Law (revelation) given to Moses, which they call the Tawrat.
* Some non-Muslims (in particular, Jews) believe that the Torah is the true Law (revelation)given to Moses. 
Perhaps the article should reflect these points. Hope this clears up any misconceptions. ---Mpatel  (talk) 08:47, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
:First off, thanks for editing the article, not just reverting it. It seems we have the same philosophy: usage not idealism. I have no problem with anything you added and of course I'm clear that Muslims believe the Tawrat changed.  I only disagree that you removed "Many translations of the Qur'an render as Law" because this is obviously true by looking at English translations. Personally, I think this is a dreadful translation, but it did happen. And removing "Most English speaking Muslims simply refer to it as "the Torah" while some reserve "Torah" to refer to the modern version, the Tawrat after its alleged corruption by Jews" also because I think this is simply a fact of usage.  I agree that different viewpoints on any given topic have to be made, that's why I love wikipedia. Therefore I think both viewpoints should be included.--JBJ830726 17:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Debate on Tawrat v Torah  

message: I see that mpatel has again removed the reference to different meanings of Tawrat and Torah after I gave a lengthy discussion (see above) and without him offering an explanation as to why.  If he does not give an explanation, then the consensus is that "Tawrat" has both meanings and this point should not be omitted.  Since the reader may find the information interesting and probably deserves more than a sentence in the intro, I've given it a headline section. Note that I made the intro ambiguous, not implying one meaning of the other.  Since the vast majority of Muslim scholars and laymen use Tawrat and Torah interchangeably, I think this is more than fair to mpatel's opinion. Hopefully this will resolve the debate.
Some other minor changes:
* Removed Old Testament reference in first paragraph because Torah (in Hebrew) never refers to the Tanach. See Torah
* Removed "which means Law" because "Law" is an incomplete translation of Torah.  See Torah.  Some English translations of the Qur'an and New Testament use "Law" because it's decent as a direct translation.  Rather than discuss translation of Hebrew on an Islamic page, I ommitted rather than explaining.  I know, this is picky.
If someone knows how to insert Arabic characters, that would help.  I do not.
JBJ830726 05:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi JBJ830726. After mulling over it a few times, I agree that the current version is better. MP   (talk) 08:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor changes & Tawrat vs Torah 

message: According to , the earliest form of the word Torah, in Ancient Hebrew, is *tawrawat, from a Proto-Semitic root *w-r-w meaning "to guide", hence the meaning "Law". That is, the cognate Arabic and Qur'anic word is closer to the original form in Proto-Semitic, and certainly not a loanword.Giorgioz 18:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  torah, tawrat - *tawrawat, cf. Proto Semitic 

message: Discuss at Talk:Torah--SefringleTalk 23:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merge

message: I reverted all of these edits because they make the page totally incoherent and hard to understand. There's also a great deal of POV and OR information contained therein. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 21:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heavy revert 

message: i added a part about islam's view about the rabbianic jewish traditions for the oral law torah. 79.176.106.98 (talk) 05:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  oral law 

message: The word "Tawrat" is an incorrect Transliteration for the Arabic word "توراة". This word may be correct Transliteration for "تورات" which can't be found in any Arabic dictionary. To explain this to non-Arabic speaking people, i should show the difference between "ة" & "ت" 
* the letter "ة", unlike "ت" and the other Arabic letters, can't be found except at the end of words.
* the letter "ة" is pronounced as "h" when you make stop at the word, and as "t = ت" when you you join the word to the one following it i.e without making stop. As an example for the first case, when the word is at the end of statement as in ana aqra'ut TWRAH "i am reading the torah". An example for the second case as in AtTWRATu kalimatul lah "the Torah is the word of Allah"
Conclusion:
*"twrah" or "Torah" is the only correct Transliteration of the word "توراة" as a single word 
*the arabic Transliteration of "Twrat", as a single word, is "تورات" not "توراة" 
Muslim-Researcher (talk) 01:45, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Incorrect Transliteration

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Gospel (Islam) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 14:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: Subchannels 115.178.221.133 (talk) 17:51, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indonesia