Talk:New Zealand English/Archive 1

message: IPA would be fine if every computer could cope with it—it appears as a string of little squares on mine. (Copey)
Incidentally, does anyone know why this article isn't listed in the alphabetical list at All articles? Copey 2 03:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

message: Can somebody tell me the origins of 2 specific usages:-
[1]....many Kiwis, especially in the rural sector, will nearly always answer a question with a contradiction, e.g.
[Q]"do you think this horse is a good bet?"
[A]...yeah, no...she's a good bet"
Why say "Yes" immediately followed by a "No".
[2]....many Kiwis ask a question twice, e.g.
"..are you going to the City, are you?"
Why say "are you" twice?
thanks
:Meaning 'Yes', I acknowledge your queastion, I am considering it .... and the answer is 'No'
:This usage appeared about five years ago among the yuppies and has since spread thoughout the country, urban and rural areas equally.   However I am not sure that it is a New Zealand phenomenom; is it not also used in other English speaking countries.   Personally I find it rather irritating and hope it proves to be ephemeral.
::This usage has been around for much more than five years and certainly not just "yuppies." - Tm19 
:With regard to your second question.  I have not noticed that at all in quite that form.  However questions are often finished with 'eh?'  
:"".. are you going to the city, eh?" 
:I think the 'eh" is a sort of verbal question mark with the same function as "ka" in Japanese.
:Hope that helps you ping 09:12, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: When I heard someone say that NZers were the only people who said "Yeah, no", I immediately thought, "What a load of rubbish. We don't say that." Then I thought about a bit more and realised, "Yeah, nah, we do!" And not only in response to a question. However, I have heard non-NZers do it too, so it's not just us. I don't know why I say it. It might be related to "No, that's right"! Nurg 10:30, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: What makes the NZ usage distinct is that it is fairly widespread. However, I have noticed it more among male/rural/blue collar. - Tm19
re: the eh at end of sentences, ive lived in NZ all my life and always thought that it was more of an aye, not so much an 'e' soundItsawayoflife 09:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Zealand English usage 

message: The page likens Swanndri	(NZ)  to Driza-Bone (Oz), saying they are the quintessential back-country farmer's jacket of each country, a woollen shirt and oilskin jacket respectively. The Sou' Wester oilskin coat in NZ is the same as the Driza-Bone, not the Swanndri.  Sou' Westers are still widely used, especially on horseback . Moriori 22:42, Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)
Comparing Swanndri against Drizabone is more to do with culture than language—they're not different words for the same thing. The Drizabone in NZ is a knee- or calf-length coat rather than a jacket—unless the word jacket can refer to longer garments in other dialects. Both words are trade-names in any case. The original Swanndri (I've occasionally heard "Swanny") was manufactured in Waitara, Taranaki by John Mack & Co, though I think it was later taken over by a larger company.  I doubt that the word was extended to other brands.  I'm not sure if John Mack still exists.—Copey, Jan 19, 2006
What about the "Affco Nightie'?   Is it widespread enough to be worth a mention? ping 08:24, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The what?
Plastic meatworks issue raincoat?
There are various different brands of oilskin "parkas" popular in NZ - a top-end example equivalent to Driza-Bone in its being sold in trendy city shops (as opposed to just being sold in farm or maritime supply stores) is Backhouse from Wanganui.
JohnGH 01:58, 04 Jan 2006 (GMT) :o)
Coming from South Australia the most common name I have heard for an oiled water-proof jacket/coat is an oilskin coat or even stockman's coat. driza-bone is a brand name. RM Williams is located in Prospect an inner Adelaide Suburb and of course they don't use the other company's brand name. Sou'wester would be considered old fashioned (the sort of thing your grandparents might wear).
Ozdaren 15:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sou'  Wester

message: What the hell is a "milkbar" supposed to be, in Australia? Is it a dairy?Lacrimosus 02:56, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Milkbar

message: Put in a little bit about this phenomenon of the 'l' changing to a 'w' and also the 'i' or 'iu' becoming a 'u' sound as in build (buwd). Don't know how common it is in New Zealand other than Auckland mainly with the younger generation although not limited to and usually only people in south Aucks. Although it's little rough and not using correct terminology.--Hekaz 11:18, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Milk/Mulk

message: The example list of accurate Māori pronunciations compared to Anglicised ones is ambiguous. The columns need to be labelled! 203.220.42.164 08:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's still a distinctly non-maori sound to the very short o (hot) that you hear in kaworra down that way. dramatic 08:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Maori pronunciation

message: h2g2 has quite an extensive list at  - could be a basis for a few extra entries in our list. dramatic 08:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vocabulary

message: I can't help but wondering if the sections in this article are the right way round. An article on NZ english starts with a detailed discussion of Maori, then goes into Maori influence (which is what the previous sections were about). I'd keep the Maori section near the top, and would also split the first section (i.e., the introductory four paragraphs) up, and suggest the following reorder:
Introduction: 
:New Zealand English is the dialect of English spoken in New Zealand, often referred to within New Zealand as Newzild.
:New Zealand English is close to Australian English in pronunciation, but has several subtle differences often overlooked by people from outside the country. Most of these differences show New Zealand English to have more affinity with the English of southern England than Australian English does. Several of the differences also show the influence of Maori speech. 
#Spelling (using all except the first sentence of introduction para.2 and expanding from there)
# Maori influence (starting with what is now para. 3 of the introduction)
## Vocabulary
## Pronunciation of Maori place names
# Unique New Zealand English vocabulary
## Unique phrases
# Differences from British English
## Additional Schwa
## Distinction between /E@/ and /I@/
## Rising Inflection
## Use of "She" as third person neuter
# Differences from Australian English
## Short i
## Short e
## Chance, dance, etc.
## More/sure
## Schwa in unstressed syllables
## Letter 'h'
## Letter 'l'
## Other differences
# Dialects within New Zealand English
# Dictionaries of New Zealand English (adding details from the introduction para. 4, and possibly the books listed in "Further reading")
# See also
# Further reading
# External links
 Grutness|hello?  23:10, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Organisation of article

message: I thought the word in Maori that asks "is that not so?" was "ne" not "nei". It's used in at least two places in the article. Can anyone confirm either way? Ben Arnold 09:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My fault. The Reed pocket dictionary of modern Māori agrees with you. Actually, it should be n followed by e-macron, but I don't know what character to type for that (if anyone does, please replace its two appearances in the Māori influence section of the article!)  Grutness|hello?  00:03, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Nei or ne?

message: in your section 'Spelling' you state -ize is UK english.
You are absolutely wrong. -ise is the overwhelmingly common ending here in the UK, the ending -ize is an american invention.
Whereas we write 'burgled', and americans would say 'burglarized'. By further illustration UK is 'sodomised' but US is 'sodomized'. It is a horrible clumsy adaptation and universally ignored in the UK. Unless you can justify your claim I will be forced to edit the article to remove this calumny against my native language  :-P
193.131.115.253
:Hate to tell you this, but both -ize and -ise are UK inventions. It's just that the early settlers to the US took -ize with them from the old country, and -ise is a much more recent creation. The UK and New Zealand had the good sense to adapt to a more sensible spelling. The US decided (as they seem to do with a lot of things) that if something used in the US is changed for the better overseas, it is "Un-American" and should be avoided. You will note that the article doesn't say that -ize is standard in the UK, just that it is allowable there and that several manuals of style prefer it. Both are true. Still, you are right that it is a little misleading.  Grutness|hello?  02:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oxford and Cambridge universities both use -ize as the orthodox spellings.  This has spilled over to dictionaries where -ize is listed as the standard spelling while the -ise is the "colloquial form".  In Asia, even in the former British colonies, it is rare to use -ise. --JNZ 08:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  -ize 

message: As in a velar trill?  Sure these weren't French settlers?  Alai 06:28, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: not that big a trill! No, they were Scots. Listen to a northern Scot say "Aberdeen" and it will all make sense!  Grutness|hello?  11:48, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Or listen to myself saying it, even.  I've never heard that called a "back trill", though:  it's alveolar.  (Or an alveolar tap or approximant in some cases, but so far as I know, never significantly further back as regards point of articulation.)  Back trill refers any time I've come across the term to a velar or uvular sound, i.e. the French, German etc r (in cases where it's actually trilled, rather than a fricative, which is the part at which I start getting especially hazy).  Alai 15:59, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: If you feel that would be better, feel free... I know virtually nothing about the science behind vocalisation. Anyone else here know more?  Grutness|hello?  23:48, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Back-trilled r... 

message: Newzild (a play on the 'lazy' pronunciation of New Zealand by some speakers) is a colloquial name for New Zealand speech, maybe heard less often now than in the 1970's and 1980's. It was also the title of a short humorous book, a companion to "Les Stalk Strine", which spoofed Australian English. If I can find my copy I'll post publication details. dramatic 03:25, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, "New Zild and How to Speak It" by Arch Acker, 1966, including such classics as "Air Mice Poster" - indicating doubts about one's ability to perform a given action - "Air mice poster sleep while you keep making all that noise".  It's on Mum's bookshelf somewhere. RB30DE 08:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newzild 

message: There's an article (International Phonetic Alphabet for English) that describes the differences between General American, General Australian and Received Pronunciation. Can any one who knows linguistics update this article to include New Zealand pronunciation?
I have a lot of trouble understanding IPA because all the examples for the symbols are in accents that don't match mine. (I remember an American telling me the a in Java was like the o in hot, when they really meant something closer to the u in hut.) Ben Arnold 01:06, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA for NZE 

message: I discovered this when I stumbled upon the fjord article and thought, "oh yeah, someone's decided to be politically correct and use the non-anglicised form". After a bit of googling I found out that the rest of the world seems to hold to that crazy j:
* *.au: fiord 314, fjord 3880
* *.ca: fiord 9310, fjord 49200
* *.ie: fiord 38, fjord 329
* *.uk: fiord 624, fjord 63500
* *.us: fiord 164, fjord 960
* *.za: fiord 12, fjord 205
versus
* *.nz: fiord 600, fjord 285
Ben Arnold 12:11, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It took me ages, when I moved to NZ, to get used to the "crazy non-English spelling" of fiord with an I. In fact, I think the only time I regularly use the "I" is in "Fiordland". Grutness...wha? 01:40, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiord vs fjord 

message: The use of the word 'patu' is a borrowing from Maori. It has 2 meanings;
A. A Maori fighting club.
B. A slang term meaning 'rubbish'.
- (Aidan Work 05:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The use of the word  'patu'.

message: I clicked on the hoki link in this page and found it redirects to the Hoki Province page. Should hoki by itself be a disambiguation page?
I was thrilled a few days before Christmas 2005 to find Hoki on sale in Tesco in Nitra, but stunned when I checked the label to find that it was from Argentina and not from GodZone. :-(
After some Googling tonight I find theirs is Macruronus magellanicus, not  Macruronus novaezelandiae.
This left me wondering - is hoki *really* a Maori name - can anyone trace its origin? - in Australia it's Blue Grenadier and also Blue Hake.
- (JohnGH 02:30, 4 Jan 2006 (GMT))
:According to my New Zealand Pocket Oxford Dictionary, yes, hoki is a Māori word. Barefootguru 18:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Buy Hoki! (sorry [[Selwyn_Toogood|Selwyn]]!)

message: The hoki fish had nothing to do with Selwyn Toogood's  cry of "By hokey!". It roughly meant "goodness gracious!" or "my word!" or somesuch. This link here is one of many google results which shows it in context. Uncommon today though. Cheers Moriori 22:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: It was By hokey,  definitely not Buy hoki

message: Before adding words to the vocabulary secton, please do a bit of research:
# Is it established in the culture? I would suggest 10-20 years usage as a reasonable minimum to filter out the faddish slang - more than one generation using it. This is why I removed skux, which although apparently native to NZ/pacific, might only last a year before the next teen buzzword.
# Is it unique to NZ? Wikipedia:Google is your friend. It took one minute to find that "bunk" is sufficiently common in the UK and South Africa to be used in multiple newspaper/article headlines. And a straw-poll of 5 North Islanders established that they all used "bunk", debunking the "South Island only" theory. 
dramatic 08:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Debunking"? :) Grutness...wha? 08:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criteria for Vocabulary 

message: I lived briefly in Rotorua and remember schoolkids using the slang word "ehau" or "ehor" in place of "mate", "friend" or "mister" when addressing someone directly, perhaps when being a little in-yer-face. This was in the early 1960s, so precise usage is difficult to recall, but I don't believe I dreamt it. Anyone comment? Folks at 137 22:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's ehoa.  And yes, it roughly means all of those things, but is reallty a greeting, as in tena koe ehoa. Moriori 23:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Kao. hoa is friend, and e is a particle used before names, giving rise to the use of e hoa as a way of addressing friend. However, this  suggests that e hoa might also mean mister/sir.Limegreen 23:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Not at all Ping.   It is more accurately  e hoa  but more popularly ehoa because people like me fall into bad habits. Cheers. Moriori 08:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ehau ? 

message: It is my understanding that Samuel Butler did not name his high country sheep station "Erewhon" but that another runholder named his station "Erewhon" in honour of the novel Butler wrote. Butler's station was "Mesopotamia". Both stations still exist under those names both in the Canterbury High Country one in the Rakaia watershed and the other in the Rangitata. I think this is common knowledge. Can anyone verify?
:The understanding is correct. Butler called his station on the Rangitata "Mesopotamia," meaning "meeting of two rivers," and of course alluding to the ancient history of what is now Iraq. The station called Erewhon in honour of Butler's book is nearby but on the Rakaia, the wrong side of the Rangitata for Butler. It's also often forgotten that in the book, the imagined world of Erewhon ("Nowhere" backwards, more or less) is not the sheep station where the early chapters are set, but "Over the Range," on the other side of the Whitcombe Pass, which Butler discovered. The most accessible source for all this and Butler's whole career in New Zealand is the "Oxford Companion to New Zealand Literature," under "Butler," "Erewhon," and "Erewhon Revisited."
:Roger Robinson
:Emeritus Professor of English, Victoria University
:I have my contacts ;-)  Barefootguru 03:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The above is more or less correct, but Erewhon Station is on the Rangitata, not the Rakaia, and is just across the river (but perhaps 15km upstream)--Limegreen 09:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Erewhon

message: When I was younger it was common for pakeha kiwis to say "Hurray!" when saying "Good-bye" and in fact I still use it from time to time but younger people do not. I used to say it when I lived for a time in England and afterwards wondered what people thought I meant. I believe it probably originated from the Maori "Haere ra". ???
Any ideas
:Max Cryer, in his book Curious Kiwi words, says that this is a variant of British "hurrah", with a new meaning added. He comments that "a vague belief that hooray is an Anglicised version of the Māori phrase haere ra is entirely without foundation." -- Avenue 22:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It was also used in Australia (OED), which also undermines the New Zealand connection. This supposition does keep popping up on wikipedia. I've deleted it twice! (once from this page, not sure where the other was from). Limegreen 02:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I've also heard the Aussie variant "hoo-roo". I think that Max Cryer (and Limegreen) is right that it's a fallacy about haere ra. Grutness...wha? 04:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Maori Influence on New Zealand English

message: I'd like to suggest that the "Unique words and phrases" section be moved out into its own article (with a name like List of New Zealand English words and phrases). It's getting pretty long and unqieldy where it is, and it's poorly headed, too, since many of the words there aren't unique but are shared with Australia or the UK. Grutness...wha? 00:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea.Kahuroa 03:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Unique" words/phrases

message: I have moved the long lists of Maori words used in NZ English to a separate article Māori influence on New Zealand English. I started that article to take a nearly identical list that I took out of the article Māori language where its relevance was peripheral to the subject of that article. Kahuroa 04:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Maori influence on New Zealand English

message: Do Kiwis really call a mobile phone a cellphone, as per "Vocabulary differences" in the article? I recall they were called that years ago when they first came out, but these days, isn't mobile phone the norm? Example: that little girl in the Telecom ad who say she is going to ring someone on her mobile. Moriori 22:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, I know I still do, and a number of others I know do, although that's not a wonderful yardstick. I also don't know any NZers who talk about their mobile. And when there is concern over the location of a transmitter, it's usually about a `cellphone tower'.Limegreen 01:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I think 'mobile' is pretty common in AK "what's your mobile number?' is how I think I'd ask Kahuroa 02:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll have to have a listen. There is some research tentatively suggesting that Auckland has a more internationalised form of NZE than Dunedin (such as greater use of US v. UK terms). There can also be quite a disparity between what people think they say and what they actually say... (So I may not really talk about my cellphone at all...). I don't put a lot of sway in using google as a yardstick, but I thought it was interesting that "mobile phone" drew mostly commercial sites (telecome, dick smith, tradme), where as "cell phone" drew blogs and news sources, suggesting some difference in who is doing the saying. Limegreen 05:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Contrast that with my experience in Dunedin, where it's invariably cellphone. Pretty sure, though not absolutely, that all my Christchurch mates say cellphone. Incidentally, could I encourage everyone commenting on their own experience of the language to state where they live? Especially when making claims on universal usage. A number of comments made on NZ usage don't match my experience, and I'd like to get a regional picture of some of these things. Copey 2 12:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree - the term "cellphone" is still the one I encounter most often down here in Dn. Grutness...wha? 13:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Jack Chambers has argued that with the globalisation of English, national identity markers are breaking down, but that there are now more distinctions at a micro level. ie, the group of people that we each associate with are more likely to have a distinct way of using english that the country group that we belong to. I'm not sure that I entirely agree, but I think a lotof the less obvious markers of NZE are disappearing. Limegreen 22:46, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both are used both when I lived in Auckland or now in Christchurch, although because I'm Asian in background the results will always lean "more American" than the Europeans.  I think "cellphone" is considered the colloquial/older usage, while "mobile phone" is more formal/newer/"correct" usage, consciously that "cellphone" is the US term while "mobile phone" is the British usage.  I think people who are more conscious of standardizing usage will use "mobile phone".--JNZ 08:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cellphone?

message: This whole section needs pruning. If these phrases are used in New Zealand, they are regionalisms, and not particularly characteristic of New Zealand English generally. I am a New Zealander, and I am not familar with many of them. Nor is the collection anywhere close to being comprehensive. It's just filler. A few more carefully chosen, characteristic examples would be much better.
:::Prune! You are not alone in this opinion - its a pity when silly lists destroy a page. Kahuroa 00:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I got rid of 'Jafa' with its bad language. It can only serve two purposes: (1) insult Aucklanders; (2) make the rest of NZ look like they have a chip on their shoulder. It does nobody any good, nor does it illuminate anything. Kahuroa 09:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Unique and distinctive phrases" 

message: To rark up seems to be New Zealand English slang. I don't know any origins, so adding it would be original research, but if anyone has sources, adding a few lines about it would be nice. --Gerrit CUTEDH 12:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  rark up 

message: This has developed into a Very Silly List. A great many of them are described as shared with other forms of English. That means they aren't distinctive or particularly characteristic of NZ English. So why are they here. A lot of the rest are outdated or just plain slang. To be listed on this page, words should be CHARACTERISTIC of NZ English AS A WHOLE - not just old folks' talk, or teenage talk. Needs a good prune. Kahuroa 19:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pruned a bit. Much more could go. One thing that also needs to be watched is the use of this list to have a go at other groups: Aussie, Brits, North Islanders, South Islanders, Aucklanders. Comes across as immature, and not appropriate for an encyclopedia. And, given the 'Criteria for vocabulary' higher up on this talk, the whole section listing words that are shared with other countries should go as well... Kahuroa 20:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Zealand English vocabulary

message: I note that Australian English looks a lot more professional than ours does because they have created a separate article Australian words to take the list of words and phrases. On this model I have created a New Zealand words article and have moved the list there. It is a bit raw in terms of introduction etc at the moment Kahuroa 02:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Zealand English vocabulary/Unique and distinctive phrases

message: I wonder about this so-called 'distinctive pronunciation' of South Island Māori, in which Oamaru is said 'Om-a-roo' - has this come from a linguist source or is it politically correct revisionism? It seems strange that this 'distinctive' pronunciation is identical phonotactically to English, has incorporated English phonemes, and appears to disregard the usually conservative nature of Polynesian vowels. Raises questions about why South Island Māori manuscripts of the 19th century, (written by South Island Māori) appear pretty normal in the representation of vowels etc. 'Om-a-roo' suggests also that syllables could end with a consonant in the middle of a word, again an English feature Kahuroa 20:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The spelling Om-a-roo doesn't represent a syllable ending in a consonant. Any consonant between two vowels in English forms a syllable with the following vowel, even if that vowel is at the beginning of the next word. Green apples is syllabified as "gree-na-ples". One problem with spelling it that way is that it suggests that the a is pronounced as in sofa. The spelling Om-a-roo shows that the initial O is pronounced like o in comma. The spelling O-ma-roo would suggest the o in coma. Copey 2 12:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - o-ma-roo is a better way of putting it, but also see Copey 2's point about the expected pronunciation of "O" (and yes, Kahuroa, that is the way local Maori pronounce it and have long pronounced it). SI Maori can end in consonants, but only at the end of words (due to apocope), though this has died out almost completely - the only times you temd to run across it are in historical records referring to palces like "Lake Wagadib" (i.e., Wakatipu). There is still a place in Otago called "The Kaik", though, somewhere near Waikouaiti, and the schwa ending of Otago ( o-TAH-guh) favoured by some locals also probably comes from this apocope. Grutness...wha? 13:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not in contact with many Maori speakers (and fewer still who use the southern dialect), so I couldn't say for certain - place names are the most common usage of Maori words in non-Maori English, but of course you get the problems you mentioned above of the Anglicisation (or Scotticisation, at least :) of the sounds - mixing the two influences makes it hard to work out from that alone where dialect ends and interpretation begins. Perhaps the strongest example of that is a hill just north of Dunedin called "The Kilmog". Technically, it would have been Kirimoko, but how much of the change of spelling was due to the dialect and how much to the Scottish settlers? I have seen it written up in an old book at the Dunedin Public Library - if I can find a source for it there it would be useful to add. Grutness...wha? 01:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: South Island Māori pronunciation

message: A recent change to this article makes me wonder: Does NZ English use the word maize or corn (or both). Rmhermen 00:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Corn, though I have heard maize used to describe it while it's still growing. Grutness...wha? 01:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The maize widely grown by Kiwi farmers is definitely not the same as the corn that people grow in their home gardens or buy in the supermarket or at road stalls. Moriori 03:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Maize is the umbrella species for what Americans call field corn, sweet corn, popcorn, etc. If New Zealanders are calling another grain "maize", they are using the term incorrectly. However, "corn" is typically a country's primary cereal grain, which may or may not be maize. It could be wheat, rye, barley, etc. Wahkeenah 16:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Maize]]

message: I reckon the article needs to mention the expression "Is it what!", meaning "Yes, it most certainly is!".  This seems to me to be a typical New Zealand expression, notable as it has confused more than one foreigner, since it sounds like a question.  My experience:
Me: "It's cold today."
A New Zealander: "Is it what!"
Me: "Cold."
A New Zealander: "Yes, I heard you. I was agreeing with you."
I'm just not sure what part of the article to put this on.  Any suggestions?
--Daniel 05:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While people do say "Is it what!" in NZ English, it seems more British in tone to me. I certainly don't believe it's unique to NZ English, so I think it shouldn't be in the article. -- Avenue 23:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could be.  I've never lived in the UK, only France, the US and now New Zealand, so it seemed like a NZ expression to me.  Have to look into it more. --Daniel 05:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Seems Merriam-Webster, an American dictionary, thinks that it is a "chiefly British" use of the word.  --Daniel 05:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Take care not to quote sources misleadingly.  M–W thinks the use of what? as a tag question is chiefly British.  Growing up in the UK I don't think I ever heard someone use it in earnest, but I understand the usage and am happy to have it designated British.  However, I have never heard of and would not understand the sentence "Is it what!" as exemplified above.  It seems to me that it therefore has an independent existence as a NZ expression, even if its origin involves the same tag-what.  —Blotwell 01:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is it what!

message: Another thing that I have noticed living here, and which is definitely a trait of the pronunciation of certina er... rural New Zealanders, is a strange sort of diphthongisation of long vowels.  The most prominent one is the long O, as in "no".  Rather than pronounce it as a nearly-pure vowel with a slight "w" glide at the end, they pronounce it as a diphthong which I'd be tempted to say is a long O followed by a hard R, or a long O followed by a short I, depending on the person.
Additionally, the long I becomes the diphthong O+I for some speakers.  This is a trait shared with some Australian speakers (think of Kath Day Knight saying "that's noice"), but definitely a lot of New Zealanders as well.
Sometimes the long E becomes a diphthong composed of short U and long I -- "speak" pronounced "spuyk".
I've also heard long A and U pronounced a bit particularly, but not quite as much as diphthongs to my ear.
--Daniel 06:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Diphthongised long vowels

message: Wikipedia:Manual of Style %28spelling%29 would have one believe that NZ, contrary to all other English-speaking countries, spells vice as vise even when the meaning is "fault".  Is this true?  If so, it should be mentioned in this article.  If not, it should be removed from the other.  —Blotwell 01:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Vice (the tool) and vice (the fault) are both vice in New Zealand - never seen it any other way AFAIK. 02:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My copy of the New Zealand Oxford Paperback Dictionary (Deverson, 1998) agrees - both meanings are spelt vice, not vise. (And that dictionary is the source given in the MOS page!) I'll go fix it now.  -- Avenue 12:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vise? 

message: I have deleted the supposed "American influence" affecting 'more' and 'sure'. This is wrong, as New Zealanders and Australians say more and sure the same way.
:You might want to restore it. As a child in Taranaki (1950s and 60s), and as an adult in Dunedin (early 70s and 80s onwards) and Christchurch (late 70s), I have mostly heard these vowels pronounced differently, though I have occasionally heard sure pronounced as shore. I say might, as I don't know what was in the piece you removed, and American influence in this case actually seems unlikely to me.
:It would be interesting to divide the population into those who pronounce sure and shore identically and those who pronounce them differently; then divide them again according to whether or not they differentiate between cheer and chair. I suspect there would be a high correlation, with people likely either to merge both pairs or to differentiate both. 
:Can I again urge contributors to state where they are from, please? Too many people on this page – in both the article and the discussion – assume that the usage they know is that of all New Zealanders, when in many cases it is a regional or local usage. It may even be a majority form, if it is that of people living within 150 km of Auckland, but still not the norm further south. Copey 2 01:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oxford's dictionary pronunciations indicate that more/shore/sure should all be said the same in both standard NZE and AusE /ɔː/ --Limegreen 11:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Should"? I would would expect them to observe that it is pronounced the same, rather than prescribing that it should be. This is an error on Oxford's part, and indicates insufficient research. There are many NZ English speakers not hugely influenced by British pronunciation who differentiate them. In Dunedin, including among people from further north, I mostly hear them differentiated. I know I usually heard them differentiated in Taranaki in the 1950s and 60s, where I grew up in the freezing works town of Waitara. I have heard them both pronounced as shore most of my life, but it has always been a minority variant. I haven't been in Auckland since 1977. It may well be that the merging of the two has become general in the north in the last 30 or 40 years, but it hasn't yet in the south. Copey 2 12:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More/sure 

message: Why is New Zealand Sign Language listed (but not discussed), whereas other countires with sign languages do not have their respective sign languages  listed on their main Wik pages?Kdammers 06:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is listed because it is an official language in New Zealand. Kahuroa 06:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NZSL 

message: In the section on rising inflection, it says that New Zealanders sometimes do this at the end of a sentence in response to a question.  I'd say that it's not only in response to a question, but to emphasise a statement as well.  Section amended.  203.97.173.115 19:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rising inflection 

message: This sentence, "Below the latter word is how the former word sounds to the ears of a non-New Zealander:" is really confusing. Does anyone agree it needs to be simplified? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.8.115.11 (talk) 08:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely, it should ideally be tabulated. I'm not even sure if it's worth mentioning exactly what the table below is though, as I can't think of an easy, non-confusing, and more importantly NPOV way of presenting it. I'll check for a reference on wiki markup for tables and then get onto this. --54x 08:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing 

message: My observation is that the use of dairy describing a corner type of shop has been declining and displaced by the generic description convenience store.  This is particularly acute in places like Auckland and Christchurch as brands like Star Mart shun the established term and new shops are started by immigrants from countries like South Korea, mainland China, and Taiwan, which use American spellings.  It lingers on at smaller centres and older shops owned by Kiwis or Indian immigrants but IMHO it may entirely disappear within a decade.  --JNZ 21:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, "Convenience store" is, to the best of my knowledge, not used at all here in the south, except maybe for things like - as you say - Star Mart and other large chains. Independent corner stores are invariably called dairies. Also, FWIW, new migrants to here from Asia do not use American spellings. You must have a different brand of foreigner further north! Grutness...wha? 00:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm in Rangiora so dairy is still used around here.  However, once you reach core parts of Christchurch the term convenience store is also used, while in Auckland (where I used to live until last year) the use of dairy is almost extinct.  And I have seen Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese shop owners use non-commonly-NZ spellings like color, recognize on the promotional pamphlets they produced, believe it or not. --JNZ 02:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just came back from Auckland last week, and over there the term dairy seems to have died out.  All the new corner stores are called convenience stores or superettes, even if they are owned by Europeans or Indians. --JNZ 21:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It would fit with some of the research that Auckland is increasingly adopting AmE norms. Somewhat interestingly, it is not necessarily occurring in other places, and somewhat fits with Jack Chambers' notion that differences between national variants of English are decreasing, but regional differences are increasing.--Limegreen 23:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I live in Auckland and I've never heard anyone use the term convenience store. Everyone I know says dairy.Liamodwyer13 09:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never heard the term convenience store used in New Zealand. Moriori 20:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Indent reset- while most shops don't call themselves dairies, the term is in common usage by their customers all the time. I've never heard anyone say that they're going off to the "Convenience Store" to buy some milk. We always say either Dairy specifically, or shops in general. --54x 09:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usage of the term ''dairy'' 

message: "others may misinterpret the speech of New Zealanders because they pronounce their vowels differently due to their accent, but this must be distinguished from the (false) claim that New Zealanders do not speak properly."
There's something funny about that statement. I mean, I laugh when I read it. This may be in part from being a NZ'er who does not in fact, speak properly or just the bolded part being inherently funny but these ideas of "false claim" and "properly" seem awfully subjective. In any case this statement seems like it could be generalized to nearly any accent except maybe English English which is presumably the benchmark for "properness".
Are there english accents which are widely considered non-proper, for example American or Scottish, while NZ english masqearudes as proper english?--BlakeKeltic 01:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is just blatant POV, even if it is backlashing against an even less neutral point of view. I've removed it, and considered replacing it with something, but couldn't come up with anything that made roughly the same point and still sounded encyclopaedic. --54x 09:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speaking Properly 

message: I added a pronunciation key, a simplified version of the NZE part of IPA chart for English. As noted on the talk page for that page the source is a page I found on the web. Ben Arnold 17:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronounciation 

message: I think that the reason some non-Kiwis interpret this dialect as a "murmur" is some of the vowel sounds.  The one that sticks out to me is the sound in words like "kick", "rich" and "sit".  This sound shifts to sound more like a schwa.  A schwa is sort of an indistinct sound.  New Zealand English thus has more schwa-like sounds than any other dialect of English that I can think of right now.  I am open to other thoughts.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 05:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well according to the chart the New Zealand pit vowel is more mid-central than the equivalent vowel in British or North American speech. I think that some Australians have an even closer, more front pit vowel, closer to [i]. 217.33.200.148 (talk) 15:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why They Murmur