Talk:Pan Am

message: The introduction to the article asserts that Pan Am was the "unofficial flag carrier of the United States," but this statement does not appear to be supported in the body of the article or by appropriate citation.  Not intending any offense to a fine company or the people who worked for it, this sounds like mere boosterism, which should not have a place in a featured article.  I don't want to remove that language, since this article has been through peer review, but will any editors step forward to substantiate that claim, or at least qualify it?  (For example, if Pan Am marketing material spoke of the "unofficial flag carrier," then the phrase needs an "according to.")
Thanks,
--Craigkbryant 02:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unofficial "flag carrier" of the United States 

message: The last fatal accident was Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988. The plane, a Boeing 747 named the Clipper Maid of the Seas, exploded in mid-flight over Lockerbie, Scotland, due to a bomb in its cargo hold.
Speaking as someone who lost classmates to that one, let me remind you that was not an accident but a direct terrorist attack, as the subsequent sentence makes clear. Perhaps, in airlinespeak, "incident" was intended? 
It rather reminds me of the awkward wording at Syracuse University's memorial, saying that all victims died "in a plane crash over Lockerbie, Scotland, caused by a terrorist bomb." (The last clause was added after the memorial was built, at the insistence of some of the victims' parents who wanted it absolutely clear they died due to malice aforethought on another's part, but even still since when do planes crash over places?)
Also, seeing as this made the main page today, I'm really disappointed that someone couldn't find a better way to phrase this:
The airline was involved in the worst disaster in aviation history. A Pan Am 747, named the Clipper Victor, was involved in the Tenerife disaster on March 27, 1977.
I'll fix these, but still ...Daniel Case 03:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For future editors, in United States airlinespeak "incident" has a specific meaning under statute: an occurrence to an aircraft that didn't result in loss of life or serious injury or substantial damage to an aircraft. ICAO has a similar definition. A baggage cart bumping into an aircraft and denting its tail is an incident, if the dent isn't too bad. Flight 103 was a disaster and a criminal act under the laws of the United Kingdom, the United States, and Germany, but was absolutely *not* an incident. --Charlene 23:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Accidents?

message: The article says: During the Apollo program, Pan Am sold tickets for future flights to the moon. These later became valuable collector's items. But my recollection is that they merely took reservations and kept a waiting list, but never actually sold tickets. Can someone verify or modify? --Keeves 15:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article has a picture of a waiting list certificate, and the text "... the air carrier established the First Moon Flights Club, which, in reality, was nothing more than a prioritized waiting list. ... the public was eager, too. By the time the airline closed out its list in 1971, Pan Am (whose name was emblazoned on the shuttle in Stanley Kubrick's "2001: A Space Odyssey") had a list of over 93,000 people, including future president Ronald Reagan." The website was last updated in 2002 and was written by a man called Eric Lefcowitz, who seems to be a failed author and failed guitarist. It would be more accurate to say that "Pan Am opened a waiting list for future flights to the moon. Over 93,000 places were allocated, and waiting list certificates later became valuable collectors' items." To win my respect an editor would have to determine (a) whether Pan Am seriously expected to schedule moon flights, and whether the waiting list had any legal weight and (b) if so, at what point did the company abandon the project, and if applicants were ever notified of this and (c) was the list, or the data on the list, sold as part of the company's assets? -Ashley Pomeroy 03:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  to the moon! 

message: Hi to all, we need to write something about the World Port.
Greetings. simonlebon
Item is already started. Worldport (Pan Am)..BrandlandUSA 20:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Port 

message: To whoever inserted this passage, can you note the sources this is based on? Also, the wording borders on positive commentary instead of straight facts (please reword to tone down the language).
:At its height during the early 1970's, Pan Am was known as the "World's Most Experienced Airline." It was highly regarded for its state-of-the-art aircraft and far-flung destinations. Pan Am's crews and cabin staff were respected for both their aviation experience and their multi-lingual ability. Pan Am flight attendants were poised and dedicated, and a high percentage of them were university graduates. American passengers in particular were proud to travel on this airline, which was known for its superb safety record. On board meal service was excellent, with filet mignon served in Economy Class on some flights. Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis preferred to fly First Class on Pan Am even though her Greek husband owned Olympic Airlines.  But serious challenges lay ahead.
PentawingTalk 16:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced passage 

message: Following the precedent from Frontier Airlines and Arizona Airways This section should be split off into two separate airlines -- they're different companies, not really connected except by name.  —Cliffb 05:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree --Gnosbush 13:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I also agree.  There is no similarity between these incarnations and the original airline except the name, the logo, and one aircraft type (the most common type in the world when Pan Am went bankrupt).  The current airline is mainly a charter service, the original was a schduled service carrier.  These are different airlines and should be listed separately.Elwood64151 16:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I also agree. The two other airlines basically purchaced the name and logo and have no relation other than that to the orignal airline. I think the old Pan Am Shuttle was more of an airline than these two. Spring3100 07:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I also agree. They're different companies with the same name. Incidentally, many people when they find they are flying Pan Am even now immediately think they are flying with the old, established airline, and not a charter airline that bought the name. --Charlene 23:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Finally done...  Cleaning up that old list.. —Cliffb 04:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split "reincarnations" 

message: I guess the page still needs a little pic of the former Pan Am Building. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Simonlebon (talk • contribs) 06:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan Am Building 

message: I've added the following to that section just to highlight the impact of the disaster - "Two hundred seventy people from 21 countries died, including 11 people on the ground. With 189 of the victims being American citizens, the bombing was the worst terrorist attack against the United States until September 11, 2001  and remains the worst terrorist and aviation-related disaster on British soil."
Kaenei 23:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added fact tags to this, as the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing killed more people and it was directed towards US forces (as well as French), and killed 299. But is it regarded as a war time attack or 'terrorist' attack? --Russavia 02:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a terrorist attack. Khadaffi had not declared war on the UK. 2601:647:4D81:4206:A544:5622:E8F7:778B (talk) 22:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Unless you can point to a source that made this assertion, I suggest that such a passage be left out in the meantime. PentawingTalk 01:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lockerbie disaster

message: Re the prewar Clipper period, no mention of the Martin (?) flying boats between the Sikorskys and the Boeings! 202.154.140.176 09:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's a poster from the 1930's, it's probably still within copyright.  We wouldn't have valid "fair use" criteria to use it. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 18:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Clipper Flying Boats

message: I am placing this list here in the talk page, given that some of the entries do not appear very significant. PentawingTalk 01:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan Am in film 

message: PA had a hub in Guatemala?  I knew they flew there, but a hub?  See infobox. Archtrain 16:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Joke or truth?

message: Im showing the picture of "Clipper Maid of the Seas" is scheduled to be deleted. While trajic, this picture is highly associated with this incident. Removal of the picture has no merit and drasticlly takes away from the soul of this article. That picture has to be one of th most enduring images of the late 80's early 90's. It's historical value to this article is highly relevant. Kcuello (talk) 05:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the image should be retained if possible. However, it does need to be sourced on Wikimedia Commons.Phase4 (talk) 11:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Pan Am Flight 103 debris picture 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:MartinM-130 GGBridge.jpg

message: The image :Image:PA103cockpit4.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:PA103cockpit4.png

message: "The airline was exposed to be falling apart". What is that supposed to mean? That someone revealed the unknown fact that the airline was falling apart? If so, who?  --Lambiam 08:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exposed to be falling apart 

message: I'm unsure why this article is featured, seeing as it's lacking inline citations in many areas. Please let me know if I'm mistaken about this criteria, or if it's simply referenced someplace else. --Resplendent (talk) 05:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was promoted to FA back in September 2005; requirements are much tougher now. See also WP:FAR for when an article may not meet current FA criteria.  JGHowes   talk 17:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  This article needs a LOT of help - Pan American World Airways has little sourcing. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  FA Status 

message: Can I propose re-writing the introduction? It currently has three paragraphs, two of which are about stuff after Pan Am World went out of business.
Can I suggest moving those paragraph to a section on “successor companies” or something, and writing a couple of paras with a digest of PA’s progress between  for the 60 years prior to that. opinions? Swanny18 (talk) 12:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Swanny18.  I also note that we've had a fight before about the use of that word "flagship". I was going to revert 9014user's use of "major" until Cenpacrr changed the whole tone of the beginning. I think the opening paragraph should emphasize PanAm's role as the world's leading international airline in the history of flight. Who can forget the opening scenes in the movie Casablanca when you realize that those desperate refugees' dream was to catch the Clipper from Lisbon. GroveGuy (talk) 00:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with that approach. Pan Am was not only the the most widely known US airline internationally from the early 1930's through its demise in 1991, for much of that time it was arguably also the world's "flagship" international air carrier as well. Centpacrr (talk) 01:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: Is it possible to get a photo of the building with the old Pan Am logo for the article instead of the current MetLife logo currently shown? 69.132.221.35 (talk) 05:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a free-use photo of it here:  SynergyStar (talk) 20:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan Am Building photo? 

message: Is this worth mentioning somewhere? First airmail flight to San Francisco Includes reference to the crash on 11 January 1938 that killed Capt Musick and his crew. Jamie Mackay (talk) 00:38, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  First airmail flight from NZ 

message: The Guided Missile Range Division (GMRD) was part of Pam Am for many years. Headquarted at Patrick Air Force Base, Cocoa Beach, Florida, this Division served the Air Force by operating the Eastern Test Range, from Cape Canaveral around the world including tracking stations (many former fixed base stations of the airliners), tracking ships, and operational groups at the Cape. Documentation of this Division is scarce and hard to find, but some of your references do speak of it, and your brief words do not do justice to the thousands of employees of Pan Am in this Division. Block1945 (talk) 19:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Guided Missile Range Division

message: Hello folks, I've just read the article and noticed that it uses the words "astral navigation" in a couple of places.  I think that by "astral navigation" the author might have meant that they were trained to navigate by the stars; however, I don't believe that there's such a word in the English language.  I've replaced "astral" with "celestial navigation to make the meaning more clear for the readers.  Clear skies to you 24.23.197.43 (talk) 02:28, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Astral navigation"? 

message: Why does Pandemonium Scareways redirect to this article? --96.32.139.209 (talk) 03:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Vandalism by some anti-PAA nut, perhaps? 146.74.230.104 (talk) 20:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  redirect... 

message: I think some mention should be made of the PanAm International Flight Training Academy. It was founded as part of the original PanAm airline and even claims, on its web site (http://www.panamacademy.com/index.cfm) that it is the "only surviving division of Pan American Airlines". It still uses the colours and logos. Mesdale (talk) 11:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reuse of name - Flight training 

message: * Pawlowski, A. "Iconic Pan Am may fly again in TV drama." CNN. February 28, 2011. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  More sources 

message: Added notation on record setting airframe N533PA that was sold to UAL and eventually scrapped in 1997. Irassassin (talk) 10:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Record-setting flights 

message: Have removed "unofficial" ahead of sentence "... flag carrier of the United States" because I think some readers do not know that any airline designated as a certain country's flag carrier in bilateral aviation agreements is a flag carrier of the country where its headquarters are located and whose citizens/corporations have effective control over it, regardless of whether it is government-owned or not. Say, for example, easyJet were to start a regular scheduled service from Gatwick or Luton to a non-EU/EEA country in Europe, such as Russia or Ukraine it would become a designated UK flag carrier under the respective bilateral agreement between the UK and Russia/Ukraine. Similarly, when UK-US air services were still governed by Bermuda II, British Caledonian, Laker and Virgin Atlantic were all designated UK flag carriers at various times although none of these airlines was ever owned by the UK government (unlike British Airways). This is the correct meaning of the term "flag carrier" in an aviation context; the way it is often used in the press to refer to a particular country's government-owned airline is not.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.114.168 (talk) 13:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, you;ve changed cited information without (apparently) checking the wording inthe source first, or providing a new source. Your definition also disagrees with the definitions found at Flag carrier, which has several definitions for the term, not all of them cited. I am thus reverting your changes. - BilCat (talk) 18:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Please don't change "U.S." to "US" - this is American usage, which is allowed on WP on US-related topics. Also, see WP:OVERLINKING for WP's guidelines on overuse of wikilinks.  - BilCat (talk) 19:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Flag carrier

message: The Formation section is very confusing, may I suggest this reading? Yosef1987 (talk) 04:48, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formation 

message: There is no reference in the article to who designed the iconic Pan Am world logo. Does anyone know the designer and do you feel it should be included within the article? Regards to all, David J Johnson (talk) 19:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That would definitely be some useful information to include in the article.  It's one of the most recognizable logos of all time. –BMRR (talk) 17:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Typing "who designed the pan am logo" into Google yielded a few interesting pages, several of which claim that the logo was designed by architect Edward Larrabee Barnes. –BMRR (talk) 17:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan Am logo 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article was in error. The Commodore, not the S-40, "started" Pan Am's South American service. The S-40 did not start service until over a year after Pan Am bought the New York, Rio, Buenos Aires Line on 19 August 1930.
The NYRBA had been operating S-38s and Commodores on the run from Miami to Buenos Aires for a a year before it was bought out. Pan Am used the same airplanes that NYRBA had been using.
The S-40s worked Miami-Havana and Miami Panama. The S-40 and Commodore had very similar performance. The S-40 had a slightly higher cruising speed, the Commodore had greater range.
Mark Lincoln (talk) 22:11, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pan Am's first South American service 

message: Could someone delve into this ? Pan Am didn't just buy the first 747's, they were instrumental in forcing Boeing to design and build them. Or Juan Trippe was, at any rate. There is a decent biography of Trippe which goes into this at length, but I read it years ago and my brain she ain't what she used to be ... 210.22.142.82 (talk) 05:39, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Widebody jets 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: CBS news has a page that has this title: 
"Jeffrey Epstein worked at financial firm that engaged in massive Ponzi scheme in 1980s and 1990s"
A fraudster firm tried to take over Pan AM. (that's how I read it) 2001:8003:A02F:F400:3D55:FD34:F9D3:9F26 (talk) 07:59, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Curiosa 

message: Seeing how Pan Am has had plenty of accidents and how some are in the main article and some are in a different article (List of accidents and incidents involving airliners by airline (P–Z)) I was thinking that we should just put them all into a separate article and have them based on decade, like how List of Japan Airlines Incidents And Accidents is laid out. Just a thought CZ3699 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 02:26, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate accident page 

message: '''
A term used in popular psychology is "Pan American (or Pan Am) Smile." Named after the greeting stewardesses supposedly gave to passengers. It consists of a perfunctory mouth movement without the activity of facial muscles around the eyes that characterizes a genuine smile.[163]
'''
Never head of this, and it is a dead link.
Seems safe to remove, unless someone has another source?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.31.241.140 (talk) 18:01, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Pan Am Smile" 

message: The paragraph beginning “Trippe and his associates planned to extend Pan Am's network” in the “Formation” section appears to be duplicated in the subsequent “Clipper era” section.  I leave the decision of which one to remove to the experts of the panel… Mr Larrington (talk) 01:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: While reading the article today I came across that section and removed the second instance, since it fits better with the chronology of the first section. Didn't check the talk page for this beforehand, though. KiraLiz1 | she/her 11:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate Paragraph 

message: Looking at the history of the talk page, it seems that the Tenerife airport disaster was at least mentioned in this article in 2007, but no longer appears anywhere in the article. It seems like the airline's involvement in the worst air disaster in history bears mention here, even though KLM was at fault for the crash. KiraLiz1 | she/her 20:10, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tenerife disaster