Talk:Toronto streetcar system

message: Prior to the mods I made, most of the route lengths in the Routes table and in most route articles appeared to be derived from a 2009 Service Summary and were somewhat different from the lengths given in a 2020 Service Summary. For example, the 2009 SS said 511 Bathurst was 6.47 km long but the 2020 SS said 5.33 km. For comparison, the Google Maps distance is about 5.3 km. Except for 508 Lake Shore, both the 2009 and 2020 SS give the round trip length which must be divided by 2 for the Wikipedia articles. For 508, the length is expressed as two one-way lengths: eastbound 18.88 km, westbound 19.95 km (Google Maps gives about 17.8 km, Long Branch to Parliament Street); the article had erroneously recorded half of the one-way trip. The Routes table shows only the EB length; the 508 article shows both EB & WB length. The length of night routes, where different from daytime, appear in the route article infobox, but not in the Routes table. I am not certain whether the 503 Kingston Rd length in the 2020 SS is for the original streetcar route or the slightly different replacement bus route prior to the pandemic cutbacks. I changed all the lengths to agree with the 2020 SS in the Routes table as well as the the infobox in each route article. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 17:51, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The streetcar route lengths are rounded to one decimal like the subway line lengths. The TTC gives round-trip length to 2 decimals; however, after dividing by 2, the accuracy is not quite to 2 decimals; thus, the table length has been rounded to 1 decimal. The 2020 service summary is the citation used  for route length as it reflects the route lengths before the diversions of 2021–2023. The 503 length should be from Bingham Loop to York Street rather than to Spadina Avenue. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 14:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: One decimal place is enough. There is no need to be overly precise. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 17:50, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Route length 

message: I think that the routes section is contrary to WP:NOTTIMETABLE - explaining exactly which routes are being diverted due to construction gives a very very bloated look to the table, and really people should be going to TTC for that information. I do think that 508 Lakeshore being suspended due to Covid-19 would meet notability criteria though. Turini2 (talk) 17:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it seems a bit awkward, but I feel like in this case it is unavoidable because the route diversions are technically a splitting into sub-routes. Not updating it in this fashion would run the risk of the page becoming misrepresentative, as there is no telling how long these changes could last, similar to COVID-19 suspensions. I think we should err on the side of inclusion in this case as long as it is kept tight and heavily summarized – as is, it is simply being noted with a link to the TTC for further information, which feels appropriate. If the section is being constantly updated by editors who are taking that work on, it's better than an outdated section that isn't comprehensive or accurate. Julius177 (talk) 18:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Constant updates of Routes section 

message: When the TTC installed its new website, it delisted 508 Lake Shore as well as the downtown express buses (routes 141-145). However, in comments at the end of an article on his blog, Steve Munro says that delisting does not mean cancellation. The TTC service summary for October 10, 2021 indicates a "temporary suspension".
When 502 Downtowner was delisted from the TTC website in January 2020, User:Blaixx commented out its entry in the Toronto streetcar system#Routes table. Other contributers (including myself) assumed delisting  meant cancellation, and made other mods accordingly. However, looking back at TTC sources, the TTC never said it cancelled the route; the service summary implies that route 502 is inactive. 
So the question is: Should we assume that delisted (in the cases of 502, 508, 141-145) means cancelled, or that delisted means inactive due to a long-term suspension? Should we consider a delisted streetcar route to be a discontinued streetcar route?  Route 508 Lake Shore delisted on TTC website TheTrolleyPole (talk) 20:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlike the 502, the 508 still appears in the latest system map from October 2021. If it ever gets removed completely from the customer-facing sections of the website, then I think we should treat it as permanently closed. I'm happy with the current status quo. BLAIXX 23:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, agreed. No changes for 502 & 508. However, by the Blaixx definition, the downtown express buses can be deemed discontinued as they have been "removed completely from the customer-facing sections of the website" including the system map online and in TTC waiting shelters. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 02:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I've made the change at List of Toronto Transit Commission bus routes. BLAIXX 15:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

text: The TTC has erased 508 Lake Shore from its Subway and Streetcar Map and System Map on the TTC website. Thus, according to the Blaixx rule, we should deem the delisted 508 route to be cancelled, and should change articles to reflect that deemed status. Agreed? TheTrolleyPole (talk) 22:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it would be hard to argue with something called the "Blaixx rule"! I think we can make the change and consider the service cancelled. Note that it has also been removed from the service summary. BLAIXX 22:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree with the " rule." I really like that name. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

text: So apparently the 508 is coming back in September (link). Funny how that happens sometimes. BLAIXX 21:06, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delisted streetcar routes 

message: I am making an exception to the above rule for 503 Kingston Rd which, when streetcars are running, has been diverting to Spadina Avenue (Charlotte Loop) instead of York Street over the last 4½ years (since June 19, 2017). I made the exception due to the longevity of the diversion, which seems to have with no end in sight. The TTC's 503 page shows both western terminals, and the TTC streetcar and system maps show 503 ending at York Street rather than Spadina Avenue. When replacement buses are running on 503, the western terminal reverts back to York Street. Let me know if you disagree with this decision. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 00:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I recently revised the 503 route description to show its York Street terminal since this is its official terminal, and 503 will return to it once construction is completed on Wellington Street sometime in 2023. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 19:05, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: 503 diversion