Talk:Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)/Archive 2

message: This page needs serious rework. The "Faith and Buffy" section should be incorporated entirely within the main article. Value judgements, or statement that verge dangerously on such, should be withheld. Statements should not be repeated unless absolutely necessary.
:::This page has been substantially rewritten in the last month or so.  The Faith and Buffy section has been eliminated, and was recently replaced by a short (rewritten) summary of their dynamics under "relationships".  The relationships section has been rewritten, expanded, and organized, and the character bio has also been rewritten.  The Powers and Abilities section may need some further attention, if anyone has time.  Riverbend 17:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Working on an overhaul of this article. It will take a little time. Forgive if there are some redundancies while in mid-process. BarkingDoc 01:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Random comments 

message: Is Fait really older then Buffy, I thought she was younger, I remeber one of the last episodes of the third serious were faith and buffy had their big brawl and faith was put into a coma that she referred Buffy as Big sister?
:I don't remember that reference, but it also could have been meant metaphorically. I'm giving the original author the benefit of the doubt and assuming s/he had a reference for the birthdate, though I don't know what it is. (did it come from the role playing game? or perhaps Lindsay's file on Faith?) BarkingDoc
Big Sister was a reference to Dawn's coming in season 5. I believe an interview with SMG revealed this (though it was more about when Dawn was really created by Whedon). Ekarderif 22:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In Faith, Hope and Trick Buffy may not have any actual idea of Faith's exact date of birth (and Faith not have any idea exactly how old Buffy is), and calling Faith her "bestest new little sister" likely just reflects the fact that Buffy's behaviour (and her appearance) are more mature than Faith's. But just because SMG is older than ED, and because Faith looks and behaves like someone younger than Buffy does not mean that Faith is actually younger than Buffy. The novel Go Ask Malice, is presented as Faith's diary taking place at the same time as Buffy Season 2. It has her 17th birthday on December 14th 1997 (meaning she's born December 14th 1980). Meaning according to this (uncanon) source she is about one month older than Buffy. -- Paxomen 15:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Faith, Hope & Trick" script describes her as "18ish".  Apparently the December 14th, 1980 date is originally from the Angel Casefiles book, though where they got it from is anyone's guess.--Nalvage 21:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice find, I have the shooting scripts but I've hardly looked at them. Someone at Whedonesque said "They got her birthday right as per "Five by Five" (http://whedonesque.com/comments/10801) but I'm not sure where the info was coming from in that episode about Faith's DOB? Also does anyone know where in "Casefiles" it says the Faith DOB? -- Paxomen 00:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ange: Casefiles Vol. 1 page reference for the December 14, 1980 DOB is in "Sanctuary" not "Five by Five" (page 168). It's an image of a fictional 'Police Bulletin', not sure if it appears in the episode, if it was some material that was made for but never used in the episode, or if Casefile authors  Mariotte/Hart made it themselves (though I'd guess the latter being unlikely)? -- Paxomen 12:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I can't see anything in Go Ask Malice that clearly indicates Faith's age. However, since the author has used the same birthday (December 14) as the Angel Casefiles, it seems likely he is also using the same birth year of 1980, which fits well enough with the contents of the novel. Unfortunately, someone has recently changed the birth year to 1982 in the "Go Ask Malice" section of the article, which fits badly with the novel. For example, her diary entry for December 29, 1997 mentions that she is due to graduate from high school "next year", which could mean either 1998 (next calendar year) or 1999 (next school year). A birth date of December 14, 1982 would make her 15 or 16 at graduation. Unless anyone can point to a place in the novel where Faith's age is made quite clear, I suggest removing any mention of her birth year from the "Go Ask Malice" section. -- Tichtich 12:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: P.S. I just remembered a clearer indication of Faith's age in Go Ask Malice. In mid-1998, Diana Dormer's diary refers to "...the occasion of the Cruciamentum approaching." Since the Cruciamentum is on a Slayer's 18th birthday, it implies Faith was 17 at the time, confirming the birth year of 1980. I propose the following text: "That Faith was born on December 14, 1980, making her roughly one month older than Buffy (her age/year of birth is not mentioned explicitly, but can be deduced from a reference to her approaching Cruciamentum)". For the longer term, perhaps there should be a separate section dealing with Faith's age, as this seems to be a subject of some interest and controversy. -- Tichtich 13:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

text: In the end, I just deleted the birthdate item from the "Go Ask Malice" section and added a brief sentence to the footnote which already discusses Faith's birthdate, with a link to the separate "Go Ask Malice" page. That page already mentions the reference to the approaching Cruciamentum, so no need to repeat it here. -- Tichtich 14:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Eliza and SMG's ages aren't relevant.  Whether or not Faith's sentence was too light is opinion.  As mentioned above, the "Faith, Hope and Trick" script calls Faith "18ish".  Kennedy is 19 according to the script for "Bring on the Night".  Faith's birthdate is from a "Sanctuary" prop via the Angel casefiles book.  I'm not saying it makes sense, just that it has sources, whereas your belief that she was younger is unfortunately based largely on opinion. --Nalvage 08:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Faiths Age 

message: the one month older crap is fanfic (those eu books are glorified fanfic).
1) eliza is almost 4 years younger than smg (though, that doesn't exactly matter--giving faith eliza's birthday is the fanficcy part--smg's role is almost 4 years younger than she is).
2) faith's sentence was murder 2 (actually 3), 25 to life... that is an awful light sentence... more than likely she was underage when she committed those crimes, meaning she was 17 or under.
and most importantly!:
3) buffy was called when she was 15 years old. kennedy made a comment that she thought she was too old to be called (and kennedy could NOT have been over 18).
4) if faith was 17 when she was called, she would have already been put through the cruciamentum a month before buffy was. faith wasn't. she was not yet 18 during any part of season 3 when she still had a watcher.
faith saying "big sis'" is a purely size or maturity thing. faith's whole persona was being a young girl who had NOT been sheltered like buffy, one who had grown up too fast.
in all likelihood, faith was about 16 or so when she was called. you can't get called at 18, because the watcher's council wouldn't make 18 the age for their test if they had slayers getting called after that. faith had to have turned 18 AFTER she had gone rogue from the council. if her 18th birthday was christmas 1998, she would have gone through her cruciamentum (still with the council) between amends and gingerbread. unlikely (giles couldn't have done it twice). if this birthday were the case, she'd have been called at 17.
more than likely, faith was 15/16 (and december 30th doesn't have to be her birthday) when we first met her and 16/17 when she committed her crimes. being that she was arrested for more crimes in los angeles in 2000 (assault), she couldn't have been an adult then either, which leads me towards her time in sunnydale was at 15/16. making her go to jail at 17.
imo, all evidence supports she was born in about 1983, not 1980.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.196.238.127 (talk) 07:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Eliza and SMG's ages aren't relevant.  Whether or not Faith's sentence was too light is opinion.  As mentioned above, the "Faith, Hope and Trick" script calls Faith "18ish".  Kennedy is 19 according to the script for "Bring on the Night".  Faith's birthdate is from a "Sanctuary" prop via the Angel casefiles book.  I'm not saying it makes sense, just that it has sources, whereas your belief that she was younger is unfortunately based largely on opinion. --Nalvage 08:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ========

message: I'm aware that Faith is often given 'Lehane' as a last name in fanfic ('Spencer' is also quite common) but do not recall it ever being mentioned in the TV series, any of the canonical episode guide books or the official RPGs.  This may make the name fanon rather than canon.
Is there any canon reference to Faith's last name?  I'm loathe to just edit the entry to reflect the query on the provenance of the name incase it's in a reference I just haven't seen.
--Stephenboothuk 23:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whedon picked the name 'Lehane' after the peeps who made Buffyverse role-playing games asked what Faith's surname was. So it's pretty much accepted canon. -- Paxomen 02:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting.  I have the Eden Studios game and her last name isn't mentioned. Maybe it was in a later edition?  The use of the name in fanfic certainly predates the publication of the game in 2003.  --Stephenboothuk 10:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Faith's Last Name 

message: Was it actually revealed in the show that Faith had a borderline personality disorder?  I don't remember anyone ever actually diagnosing her and wanted to check. Riverbend 18:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for fixing this!Riverbend 15:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personality Disorder? 

message: I am wondering if Faith's Watchers should be in the part about her relationships.  I expanded that section in general, those were there already and I wasn't sure whether they really belong there or not.  I just don't know if one Watcher that is barely mentioned in the series, or one Watcher that got some of Faith's misplaced trust in one confrontation, should really count as relationships for the purposes of this section.  I can see that her relationships with her Watchers would be significant, in that they would be a constant, reliable presence in her life, and her trust in anyone is out of the ordinary for her, but from looking at other buffyverse character pages it seems like they are mostly romantic relationships, or close friendships with romantic overtones.  If they aren't taken out, perhaps someone would want to expand them so that their importance in her life (stabling force, or whatever) is more clear...??? Riverbend 22:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  should the watchers be in the relationship part? 

message: So, at the end of the Sunnydale section, there is some stuff about their shared dreams.  Any objections if I streamline that part down into like one sentence?  Riverbend 22:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I say go for it.  You only really need to ask on the Talk page if you think an edit's likely to be controversial.  Basic improving of the prose, or streamlining should just be charged into, I think.--Nalvage 06:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  I am usually really heavy-handed with edits, but I worry sometimes that I am making too many changes without consulting the community. . .  Thanks for the advice!  Riverbend 17:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The stuff on dreams 

message: According to various interviews with those involved, Faith is slated to appear in the second story arc of Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight.  A question comes to mind:  will this appearance go in canonical or non-canonical?  Granted that appearances in licensed material usually aren't considered "in continuity" in most canons, but considering that Whedon himself refers to this comic as an official continuation of the television series (hence the title), will it qualify as canonical? -- Pennyforth 16:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely canonical.  The Season 8 comics are a continuation of the television series, not the original comic series.  See other Buffy pages to see how the appearances sections are dealt with.  Paul730 21:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buffy Season Eight 

message: :Image:Btvs-faith1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 12:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Btvs-faith1.jpg 

message: :Image:Faith season8.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 06:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Faith season8.jpg 

message: I recently rewrote much of this article in my sandbox and moved it over to the mainspace.  It's not quite finished yet; I have to expand the "Concept and creation" and "Characterization" sections a bit more.  However, I have purged most of the plot summary, replacing the "Character history" with a more out-of-universe "Appearances" section.  I also removed some of the images which didn't offer much critical commentary on the character other than "here's another picture of her".  Most of the material I've deleted has been moved to the Buffyverse wiki, so if you want to access the old article, it's more or less all over there.    Paul  730 03:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: There's something wrong with the infobox. Pokemon Buffy Titan (talk) 10:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be because you deleted the coding.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 12:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Something Wrong... 

message: Okay, there's a bit of a debate going on as to whether or not to include Sarah Michelle Gellar in the infofox as having played Faith.  I understand both sides but I have to agree that she shouldn't; SMG didn't really play Faith, she played Faith's mind in Buffy's body... she was mimicking Dushku.  It's not like she's known for playing the character, she's known for playing Buffy, who happened to be possessed by Faith in one episode.  Likewise, I don't think we should list Rance Howard as having played Angel, just because in the episode "Carpe Noctem" he happened to switch bodies with some old geezer.  The characters are known for being played by Eliza Dushku, and David Boreanaz, the infobox should stick to these people alone.  In Buffy's case, we should stick to Kristy Swanson and SMG, the only two actresses really assosciated with the character.  Maybe we could just mention that the characters were played by the respective actresses in the "Appearances" section?; As Buffy (Eliza Dushku) is taken into custody by the Watchers' Council for crimes she did not commit, Faith (Sarah Michelle Gellar) discovers for the first time what is like to be surrounded by loving friends and family.    Paul  730 17:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that would work. To me, saying that SMG played Faith is like saying Freddy Kreuger played himself in Wes Craven's New Nightmare. Just because they listed him in the credits like so, doesn't actually make to real.   BIGNOLE   (Contact me) 17:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course Sarah Michelle Gellar is actually a real person and Freddy Krueger... isn't, so that might not be the best analogy.  I understand what you mean though - SMG is credited as "Faith" in "Who Are You", but that doesn't mean she was actually playing the character...  it was a brief twist in the story, not a serious casting decision.   Paul  730 17:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who Are You 

message: i added this caus i tought that was necesary, almost every character hast this beautiful, idexed, apareances list, so i did this, but it was reverted because "already this is in a prose section" or something like that. But several episodes are not covered in the article so i think this is a good idea, and is more easy to fond her episodes this way. give your coments
===Appearances===
Canonical Appearances
Faith has been in 30 canonical Buffyverse appearances.
; Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Faith has appeared as a guest in 20 episodes.
*Season 3 (1998, 1999) - "Faith, Hope & Trick," "Beauty and the Beasts", "Homecoming", "Revelations", "Amends", "The Zeppo","Bad Girls", "Consequences", "Doppelgangland", "Enemies", "Choices", "Graduation Day, Part One", " "Graduation Day, Part Two" 
*Season 4 (1999, 2000) - "This Year's Girl, "Who Are You" (played by Sarah Michelle Gellar) 
*Season 7 (2002, 2003) - "Dirty Girls", "Empty Places", "Touched", "End of Days", "Chosen"
; Angel : Faith has appeared as a guest in 6 episodes.
*Season 1 (1999, 2000) - "Five by Five", "Sanctuary"  
*Season 2 (2000, 2001) - "Judgment" 
*Season 4 (2002, 2003) - "Salvage", "Release", "Orpheus"   
; Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 8 Comics: Faith has appeared in four issues so far:
*No Future For You, Part 1-4
PS: i hope that this was not reverted because i listed SMG playing Faith... --200.104.201.224 (talk) 06:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, thank you for bringing this discussion to the talk page rather than edit warring, many people aren't that considerate.  The reason I reverted you is because a list of episodes just isn't necessary in the article.  Faith's appearances on Buffy, Angel, and the comic books are all covered in prose in the existing "Appearances" section.  If it's a list of appearances you're looking for, Wikipedia isn't the right place, but the external links to IMDb and Wikia probably are - Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not an indiscriminate collection of information.  We're not here to serve every purpose, even if it might be useful or interesting to readers.  As for similar lists in other Buffy character articles, those pages probably fail Wikipedia policy.  If you look at good quality character articles, like Jason Voorhees, Jack Sparrow, Superman, Jack Harkness, Jabba the Hutt etc, there aren't any lists of episodes/stories the characters feature in because it's not encyclopedic.    Paul  730 21:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apareances 

message: Canonical Appearances
Faith has been in 30 canonical Buffyverse appearances.
; Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Faith has appeared as a guest in 20 episodes.
*Season 3 (1998, 1999) - "Faith, Hope & Trick," "Beauty and the Beasts", "Homecoming", "Revelations", "Amends", "The Zeppo","Bad Girls", "Consequences", "Doppelgangland", "Enemies", "Choices", "Graduation Day, Part One", " "Graduation Day, Part Two" 
*Season 4 (1999, 2000) - "This Year's Girl, "Who Are You" (played by Sarah Michelle Gellar) 
*Season 7 (2002, 2003) - "Dirty Girls", "Empty Places", "Touched", "End of Days", "Chosen"
; Angel : Faith has appeared as a guest in 6 episodes.
*Season 1 (1999, 2000) - "Five by Five", "Sanctuary"  
*Season 2 (2000, 2001) - "Judgment" 
*Season 4 (2002, 2003) - "Salvage", "Release", "Orpheus"   
; Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 8 Comics: Faith has appeared in four issues so far:
*No Future For You, Part 1-4
PS: i hope that this was not reverted because i listed SMG playing Faith... --200.104.201.224 (talk) 06:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, thank you for bringing this discussion to the talk page rather than edit warring, many people aren't that considerate.  The reason I reverted you is because a list of episodes just isn't necessary in the article.  Faith's appearances on Buffy, Angel, and the comic books are all covered in prose in the existing "Appearances" section.  If it's a list of appearances you're looking for, Wikipedia isn't the right place, but the external links to IMDb and Wikia probably are - Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not an indiscriminate collection of information.  We're not here to serve every purpose, even if it might be useful or interesting to readers.  As for similar lists in other Buffy character articles, those pages probably fail Wikipedia policy.  If you look at good quality character articles, like Jason Voorhees, Jack Sparrow, Superman, Jack Harkness, Jabba the Hutt etc, there aren't any lists of episodes/stories the characters feature in because it's not encyclopedic.    Paul  730 21:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Appearances