Talk:Aikido/Archive 2

message: Korppi76 08:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Edwin Stearns | Talk 14:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Could someone whip up at least a stub for Noriaki Inoue and/or Shin'ei Taido.  Trying to get rid of empty links but I think they are important enough to the overall history of Aikido that they should not be deleted.  A stub for Nihon Goshin Aikido would also be great - I think there was one but it was deleted because of copyright violation.Peter Rehse 04:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

message: I didn't say any mention of this part of aikido in the article
Minoro Hirai lived around the same time as Uyeshiba (both of them are called O'Sensei bytheir followers), and they influenced each other's style
Aikido, while considered an invention of Hirai, was actually expected to emerge out of the styles of Jiu-jutsu, and was then called aiki-jujutsu, both masters founded their schools for that, and apparently, both called them Aikido. 
Hirahi's branch was called Korindo, and, probably "thanks" to the small number of students didn't split into factions, as tends to happen in the martial arts world. It's still practiced, but mainly in Japan, Israel, and Berlin. I believe it's fading away, seeing as the korindo type of aikido is less familiar (an understatement) than Uyeshiba's. 
Korindo does emphasize practicaluty as opposed to the ideal of a perfect movement, seen in some branches of Uyeshiba's aikido (this doesn't mean one is better than the other, it means they're different, that's all).
one of the unique traits of it is use of specific forms of tai sabaki designed to practice fluency in some of the basic movements and techniques. 
I realize this probably won't be a main theme in the article about Aikido, but it won't be complete without some mentioning. 
a practicing teacher in Israel is Shlomo David, dan 6. he's a full time coach in martial arts, and has studied aikido in Japan under Hirai, when Minoro Hirai was still alive.
:I suggest you create a separate entry for Korindo Aikido and put a sentence or two in the style section.  Need help?  Let me know.Peter Rehse 10:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Korindo Aikido and Minoro Hirai 

message: The use of caps in originally Japanese words keep coming in. Aikido, Judo, Karate, Nage, Ki... why? What is the rationale for this?
If it some kind of honorific, this might work fine in the works of each aikido organisation but not in an encyclopedia intended for wider audience. There are many rules of English language I am not acquainted with (and those I should know I accidently break every now and then) but if there is a rule that words that originates in Japanese language should be spelled with a capital letter, or words with budo origin, I will be happy to recieve a pointer. Until that happens, I will see these capital letters as mistakes and remove them. / Habj 02:23, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The standard, then, is to not capitalize words like aikido? This seems to be the most widely used throughout the article, but there is still some inconsistency. For example, throughout the introductory paragraph before the contents box, aikido is capitalized. There could be a reason behind this, similar to how the first use is boldfaced, but it could also cause confusion as to what the standard is. There are also other examples scattered throughout the article, such as in the first paragraph of the Training section. Here the phrase "aikido technique" is written first as I just demonstrated, and two sentenes later as "Aikido technique." I'm happy to do the final cleaning and standardizing, but I figured I would get some feedback first - especially regarding to the introductory paragraph. Estrand 00:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capital letters 

message: In some parts it seems no more than an enthusiastic advertisement. It is an encyclopedia, mind you. (e.g. "A new person - straightforward, brave yet humble, able to be both strong and yielding as circumstances require - can emerge from this training")
Please go ahead - I'm doing my best keeping the styles section under control.  A couple of sections are too long, too involved and not too neutral.  The best way is to take one section at a time - Mind is one, Ki is another that needs work.  You are dead right about the example I got rid of it.Peter Rehse 01:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Would someone please neutralise the article? 

message: by a consensus of wikipedians, it was determined that this useful category be eliminated. however, i maintain this valuable resource on my user page --Ghetteaux 13:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seagaliana 

message: Hi.
I just tweaked a few things on this. I lived in Japan for 3 years and am a fluent reader/speaker of japanese and have studied Aikido for the same amount of time. I'm no expert on the art, but I know that AI KI DO is not directly translated as the "way of harmony" so much as English speakers keep saying, although I admit it does sound quite nice. the character "AI" is used for many banal purposes, such as HANASHIAI (meet and talk) or TAIKAI (sports meet/exhibition), to ascribe "harmony" to it is a bit of western romanticism I think. Ki is ki, and Do is "way", this much is true. Basically, this is my opinion, but I believe the important idea being expressed in the word AIKIDO, is that it is about the MEETING of KI, the ki of two different people. whether they clash, or harmonize, is up to the individuals. Harmony and harmonizing is a wonderful quality, but it is a bit new agey to use it all the time. I think of Aikido as an ongoing experiment, a "ki science" that deals with all the different and wonderful ways that two people's Ki (i.e. intention, etc.) can meet. I mean, you could meet someone, and kiss them, and that would be a way of two "ki's" interacting, so let's keep it a little more open ended people!
also, I added that the character of KI represents a bowl of rice with the lid on, thus the steam is the "KI". This was drawn out and explained to me by an 80 year old guy who knew onsensei, yadda yadda. The rice character is used in AIKIDO, while in regular casual japanese, the character has been changed with the rice replaced by a katakana "me" character.
also, I reworded some phrases and such, to get around the word "spiritual" which is used WAAAAAAY too much, and is not a very concrete word that tells us much, especially when it is used so often. I'm all for spirituality, but it really is an ambiguous and ill-defined word to use to define something else... for example if someones says, "what is the deal with religion X or philosophy B?" and I answer "it's really, um...SPIRITUAL", I'm not really telling them much am I?
:Whoops - I wish I had read your talk contribution before I started changing things.  First of all thanks much for taking care of the Ki section.  I still think it could be trimmed further - please feel free.  I do think you are wrong about the kanji - please double check and lets discuss it here (I've lived in Japan for over 10 years and have studied Aikido just as long).  Finally (my typo aside) Wikipedia asks that articles be written either in American or British English not a mixture of the two.  I personally couldn't care less which varient is used but it really should be all or nothing.Peter Rehse 07:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the changes that you've made to this section.  It has bothered me for some time and I haven't known how to change it.  As for the translation of Aikido, I have seen the use of "The way of harmony with ki" or "The way of harmony with the spirit of the universe" in various books in english by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Moriteru Ueshiba. I have also heard your literal translation before, but it seems that the interpretation of it as "The way of harmony" seems to come directly from the Aikikai, not from the west.  Edwin Stearns | Talk 14:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ki Section and Kanji and Harmony

message: Stranglely I first spent two weeks constantly putting him back in the list of famous Aikidoka apparently someone didn't think he did Aikido or was famous or something.  Now I find myself removing references and information in both the List of Famous Aikidoka and here.  Excuse the rant but he is not the worst or best thing that happened to Aikido.  I suggest that references to Seagal and his Aikido should stay on his own page which is linked through the list of famous Aikidoka.  There are members of that latter list who have a far greater influence on Aikido which basically is my problem.  If you mention SS you really need to mention far more people also.Peter Rehse 02:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Steven Seagal

message: Please place good photo on the page. 
In this photo master does a big mistake. Uke can "win" master by his kick. :D
: That assumes that uke can get into a position to kick (or sweep or throw).  In the picture, uke seems to be more focused on the ground than tori.  Mrand 17:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the technique shown appears to be inelegantly preformed by both uke and nage.  Without feeling the technique myself, it is hard to say whether uke can counter or not.  It appears that this uke couldn't counter.  Does anyone have a better picture that is GFDL?  Edwin Stearns | Talk 22:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to Dan testing in Baltimore this Saturday.  I can try to get some good pictures of randori or something there. Fightindaman 22:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, I took some pictures, but they didn't come out so great.  Not enough light so my shutter speed was rather slow.  They're a bit blurry, but on a koshinage photo that can be a bit interesting.  Should I bother uploading a few or no? Fightindaman 05:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to see those pics, but only because I was there that day...:D User:Transentient
How about replacing that picture which I agree is poor with the one on the Italian version of the Aikido page.  I don't think uke is in a position to do anything to nage but yeah it is inelegant.  Pictures and copyright provisions are too complicated for me - I leave the actual doing to someone else.Peter Rehse 00:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Master`s mistake in the photo. 

message: I studied Aikido with Bob Ozman some 40 years ago and I'm curious as to where he fits in to the history. While Chuck Norris - himself - was kindly and good at Karate - his teen aged instructors had massive ego problems so I walked to the next dojo down the street as it were. Does Isshinryu ring a bell? - Sparky
:I googled the name with Aikido and came up with nada on Aikido but a tenuous connection with Jack Mumpower who was an early student of Aikido great Kenji Tomiki.  You sure it was Aikido you were taught?  If you are really curious I would ask the same question on the forums at http://www.aikiweb.com  CheersPeter Rehse 06:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Aikido in the States

message: IP 80.45.15.210 has added that some people practice with live blades.  For solo practice (what we call movement practice - where you are not directly engaged with another person), I could believe this.  But for training in techniques against people (regardless if they are open-handed or equipped with a sword), I find this claim doubtful.  Safety is paramount in training, and when working with a live blade, the stakes are too high to risk even a minor mistake by either tori/nage or uki.  Either person could make minor mistakes in body movement or hand position, or someone could stumble, trip, or even stub their toe on the mat.  The results could be life threating.  That's not a safe way to train.  So... at a minimum, I think the statement should be made clearer that some practice by themselves with live blades.  But in reality, I think the statement could probably be removed without losing much, if any, real content.  I'm inviting 80.45.15.210 to this discusion.Mrand 11:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen a video of an Aikido demonstration where a blade was used for a single person form. But I've never seen or heard of kumitachi being practiced with actual blades in Aikido. -- David Scarlett(Talk) 04:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I also know Aikidoka that practice iaido and/or kenjutsu and have incorporated parts of that into Aikido demonstrations.  The rational is that the base of Aikido is the sword and therefore knowlege of real weapons is relevant but Aikido in itself is not knife or sword fighting.  The pain from a good bokken strike is pretty real so the added edge (excuse the pun) of training with live weapons is not really an issue.  The lack of safety and the suggestion in a wikipedia article that it is something to aspire to is however an issue.     I know one guy with half a hand that decided his karate (could just as easily be an Aikido guy) could be enhanced with real samurai sword training - an accident waiting to happen - he didn't even bother to get introductory training since I guess he was a black belt and knew what he was doing.  Yeah so I agree completely with Mrand and I removed it.Peter Rehse 08:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I apologise for the addition, and upon reflection realise that I probably did not really improve the article.  However, in my experience (ie. in the dojo where I trained) live blades were used, but, as I should have specified, only when advanced students were performing a demonstration or during advanced grading.  They were not used for regular practice.  In response to Mrand's comment, use of live blades in this manner was essentially movement practice, but with a partner.  Neither the attack nor the technique are delivered with the same commitment as bokken or unarmed training.  Instead the movement is performed in a controlled manner to minimise risk.  In any case, as said above, the statement did not add much and PRehse has rightfully removed it.  In future I shall consult talk pages prior to such additions. 80.45.15.210 09:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No harm done.  Please don't let this turn you off from editing this or other articles!  Have fun, Mrand 12:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Live blades?

message: The "Ki" in Aikido and the "Chi" in Tai Chi Chuan are completely different characters with different meanings. See Wiktionary:%E6%B0%97 (Ki/Qi/Chi) and Wiktionary:%E6%9E%81 (Chi/ji). While there is certainly a concept of chi/qi in Tai Chi Chuan, this chi/qi is not the same as the "ji"/"chi" in the name "taijiquan"/"tai chi chuan". Wwilson 1 - If you believe otherwise, please explain here before reverting. Thank you. -- David Scarlett(Talk) 07:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The chi (极) in t'ai chi does not mean "energy". So, I don't see the relevance of whether or not there is only one kind of energy.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 21:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Chi" in "Tai Chi" 

message: Peter,
Hi. What's up with your removal of the Osensei quotes? I saw your subjective comment on AikiWeb about it. I think a few more people should weigh in on its removal besides only you. Osensei was a deeply religious and spiritual man who is said by most to have achieved enlightenment, and the art of Aikido stems from this experience. This is more than worthy of mention in the Wikipage about Aikido. As far as copyright, I'm no expert, but a quote from a famous deceased person is public domain as far as I know. The same quote appears in three different books, written by two different people, with no apparent copyright problems. Also:
Peter Rehse wrote:
"It shouldn't be in there like that because it is a copyright infringement and at the head of the article it sets a tone which give the article a non-encyclopediac feel"
The source is Kisshomaru Doshu's original "Aikido," later published in translation or a new edition as "Spirit of Aikido" He is the primary reporter of his father's statements. It cannot be a copyright inforngement to repeat the quote, any more than it was infringement for Stevens to repeat or retranslate it. "
It was O-Sensei's impetus from his revelations that spread aikido internationally with a sense of mission behind it, whatever opinion you may have about the reported content. But for that vision, aikido would be a family heirloom art practiced solely at Iwama. 
Merely because the same thing is not directly experienced by those learning the art does not mean it was not important as a component of its development and spread. Plainly, the charisma O-Sensei possessed as reflected in or received from his visions played a powerful part in drawing deshi to him, who then had the will and desire to spread the art far and wide. If you do not live in Japan, and probably even for most of those aikidoka who do -- those visions are responsible for you practicing aikido today -- wherever you are living.
And that information is quite "encyclopedic" in its nature.
Cordially,
Erick Mead
Wanted to include that in case you missed Erick's input on Aikiweb. I agree entirely with him. Encyclopedia does not mean, "boring technical and trivial detail that disregards the main focus and principles of the object of  knowledge". Aikido without Osensei, enlightenment, and Ki isn't Aikido if you ask me. What do the rest you guys and ladies think?Wwilson 1 06:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spirit of Aikido 

message: The first technique in Ueshiba M.'s Budo Renshu has nage initiating the technique.  The first waza in Shodokan Aikido's Koryu Goshin no Kata has this technique - picture a pair facing each other in the kneeling position.  Nage initiates with a back fist strike, uke attempts to block and nage uses ikkyo.  I have seen the same technique  and others where nage initiates a number of times in a number of different dojo.  They usually are considered advanced techniques, right alongside of reversals and counters.  Cheers.Peter Rehse 06:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nage initiating techniques 

message: Japan has simplified 氣 (ki).Erik-the-red
:This is a good point, and one I've been meaning to mention.  The Japanese government officially changed 氣 to 気 (I think in the 1940s).  Shouldn't we stop writing aikido with the old kanji?  In fact, right now the article is written with the old kanji in the table nest to the picture, and the new kanji in two other places.  Notwithstanding the fact that the older version is somewhat prettier, and definitely more mystical-looking, it doesn't make sense to me to persist in an obsolete spelling.Bradford44 18:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Ueshiba always wrote it as 氣." It is interesting to note that Ueshiba actually calligraphed it differently from both versions, wrapping a spiral around the vertial part of the plus sign under the "bridge" and removing the horizontal stroke from the plus. Although it could probably just have been his personal "cursive" way of writing 氣. --Waterchan 03:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The ki is not the correct kanji 

message: Wilson nice addition to the techniques section.  I guess you are still touching it up so I'll stay clear for awhile.  Judo is a borrowed word like aikido so it should be spelled   as judo - the rest of those transliteration devils are fine.  Thanks for that.Peter Rehse 03:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon me while I correct myself - sixth technique is rokkyō. I apologize for inadvertantly spreading some misinformation. That's what I get for speaking off the cuff, and not checking facts first.Bradford44 15:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Techniqes

message: I'm proposing the following changes for the purpose of nominating for 'Good Article'.
(the following was all written by Bradford44)
===Intro===
The statement "aikido contains a very spiritual component..." is imprecise at best.  This is a somewhat non-scientific way to describe aikido, and frankly, I'm not sure what it means for something to "contain" a spiritual component, or for that component to be "very significant."  Therefore, I suggest that sentence be changed to something more lik:
*Aikido is partly characterized by its emphasis on the spiritual and philosophical development of its students.  This is a direct result of Ueshiba's involvement and belief in the Ōmoto-kyō religion, as well as Shinto and Buddhism.
seems ok to meWwilson 1 18:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a sensible argument, that the most literal reading in the native language is not necessarily the most correct rendering.  However, I am suspicious of the idea that aikidoka "generally" punch for the stomach.  I'm used to being told to aim for the solar plexus (hence the alternate and more explicit, if poetic wording, suigetsu-tsuki).  I'm not aware of the stomach being a particularly suitable target for a punch.  I'm restoring it to the literal meaning for now; I'd appreciate it if others would weigh in on the question of where aikidoka tend to strike at when performing 'mune-tsuki'.  If it's stomach, we'll make it that; if chest, we'll keep it that.  --GenkiNeko 16:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Changes

message: The statement "aikido contains a very spiritual component..." is imprecise at best.  This is a somewhat non-scientific way to describe aikido, and frankly, I'm not sure what it means for something to "contain" a spiritual component, or for that component to be "very significant."  Therefore, I suggest that sentence be changed to something more lik:
*Aikido is partly characterized by its emphasis on the spiritual and philosophical development of its students.  This is a direct result of Ueshiba's involvement and belief in the Ōmoto-kyō religion, as well as Shinto and Buddhism.
seems ok to meWwilson 1 18:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: It seems to me that this subject heading is a bit vague on its own, and then not entirely related to the material appearing under it.  Is this supposed to be a section on the development of a person's spirit through the practice of aikido, or a section on the spirit of aikido as in the essence of it?  The content of the section is partly about the etymology of the word 'aikido', followed by a very tiny note describing the legend of aikido's development.  There are four problems I have with this section.  
I disagree. I think the point of the section is to show that the essence of aikido, the love and protection of all creation, is contained within the etymology as well as the enlightenment of Osensei.Wwilson 1 18:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spirit of Aikido

message: Although in most aikido schools "mune-tsuki" is used as the name of the technique for striking to the stomach, "mune" actually refers to the chest, at the sternum, and not the stomach.  Should this be noted?
sure, in the japanese language ,but most readers of this article practice munetsuki as a stomach punch, and that makes 'munetsuki' in the western aikido world, a stomach punch. japan has no special authority. If I use a word, even 'galabadab' to the extent that the whole country uses it, even if my original personal definition was 'coat', if the world says it means 'gloves' that's what it means for all intents and purposes.Wwilson 1 18:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a sensible argument, that the most literal reading in the native language is not necessarily the most correct rendering.  However, I am suspicious of the idea that aikidoka "generally" punch for the stomach.  I'm used to being told to aim for the solar plexus (hence the alternate and more explicit, if poetic wording, suigetsu-tsuki).  I'm not aware of the stomach being a particularly suitable target for a punch.  I'm restoring it to the literal meaning for now; I'd appreciate it if others would weigh in on the question of where aikidoka tend to strike at when performing 'mune-tsuki'.  If it's stomach, we'll make it that; if chest, we'll keep it that.  --GenkiNeko 16:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Technique - Attacks

message: #First of all, I think that transliterating to "randōri" (with a long 'o') is incorrect.  If indeed randori is written in Japanese as 乱捕り (らんどり), or 乱取り (らんどり), which seem to both mean the same thing, either way it is correctly transliterated as "randori" (らんどり), and not "randōri" (らんどうり).  Someone please correct me if I have the wrong kanji or are otherwise incorrect about this.
#Second, I couldn't find it, but I'm pretty sure there is a guideline about not making links out of section titles.
sounds like you're right, but again, we need a real live Japanese Aikidoka to verify it.Wwilson 1 18:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Technique - Randori

message: This section should exist on its own.  In many respects this is the most immediately practical part of aikido.  I'd be willing to bet we all know far more aikido practitioners whose lives or limbs have been saved because they know how to fall than because they know how to throw...
No problem with most of it.  With respect to styles USAF and ASU are part of the Aikikai whereas Shodokan (Tomiki), Yoshinkan, Ki-Society, etc have not been for quite some time.  My suggestion would be to expand the Aikikai article itself to include all the sub-organizations.
That sounds good to me Peter, wanna do it? I'm not sure I have the wikiskills.Wwilson 1 18:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ukemi

message: At present, these read like an interesting but rambling essay on aikido.  I'm sort of baffled by their choice as sections, to be honest: it doesn't seem like a helpful categorization.  I recommend erasing both headings, and blending the material into a shorter, more direct version.  I'll give it a try myself in a bit.  Please comment if you disagree, but I feel at present it's both unfocused and oddly divided.  --GenkiNeko 20:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion:  "Attack"/"Defense" 

message: I think we should try to find a cache of free-to-use aikido photos to spruce up this article.  I believe this came up earlier in reference to the photo at the top.  Take a look at Judo's current image: that's an excellent, dynamic shot that (to me, anyway) conveys a good sense of what judo is like.  I think aikido would benefit from something similar.  At present, it looks to the casual observer as "Some guy holding his arms out, and another guy rolling".  (Although it is a nice picture in other respects.)  Not just there, but throughout the article, some good photos would be excellent to convey to the casual reader what aikido looks like.  --GenkiNeko 20:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion: Photos 

message: :Re: Peter's suggestion...I still feel the two things I mentioned above remain obstacles to this article being worthy of "good article" status.  I still think that the photos are suboptimal (rather vague, especially to non-initiates), and perhaps more critically, I find the "defense" and "attack" sections to be poor organizational choices. (I will attempt to put together a new version today.  Really!)  Meanwhile, if anyone could try to figure out the copyright situation and find us a bank of public-use images, that'd be great.  If any yudansha reading this want to photograph themselves, go ahead. :)  Again, I have to look to that 'cover image' for Judo as an ideal for a first shot.  --GenkiNeko 16:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you take the [picture] used in the french (and german)aikido article? --Goonies 12:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This picture was used on this page before and it was felt that it does not display a skillfull execution of the technique.  I think everyone would be open to a better picture. Edwin Stearns | Talk 15:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: For now, I'm asking the AikidoFAQ admin if any of the pictures there might be useable.  (There's a good animated kotegaeshi one there, for instance.)  In the meantime, seriously: why don't some yudansha wikipedians take a few action shots of themselves?  If you produced a small set of those, perhaps we could find a couple that suited our purposes. --GenkiNeko 19:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I like this one quite a bit!  (although we might want to trim out the left half of the photo.)  The one of students lined up in seiza might also be a good choice.  The others are perhaps a bit too vague for the general audience.  Thanks, Peter! --GenkiNeko 14:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Article? 

message: * I question the idea of ikkyo as a technique applied primarily to the wrist.  It can be done by gripping the non-flexible end of the forearm just before the wrist, for instance.  I'm not saying both hands (the one on the elbow and the one on the wrist) aren't important, just that I consider it odd to summarize it as a wrist rather than elbow/shoulder technique.
: How about, " - gripping the wrist with one hand, and immobilizing the elbow as a fulcrum with the other, this technique is used to leverage uke to the ground. This grip also applies pressure into the ulnar nerve on the medial side of the arm." Bradford44 18:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Howdy Branford - I have to admit I find myself disagreeing pretty strongly with your wording... the words "immobiling" or "leverage" are not part of any description of any technique that I practice, and the word "fulcrum" would only be used in describing a point around which uke ends up rotating (not used as something that tori forces like a lever).  In doing google searches, I don't find lots of hits elsewhere either, which leads me to believe that it isn't the most popular method of applying aikido prinicples.  I'm obviously not saying that it is ineffective - I'm simply saying that it perhaps is not the most common. Best regards, Mrand 02:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I think you're right about "fulcrum", Mrand.--GenkiNeko 15:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

text: It may be that I'm using fulcrum a little loosely, so let me be more specific with what I was trying to get across.  I conceptualize the control of the arm in ikkyō as an immobilization of the elbow with one hand, while the other hand pulls the wrist of uke toward oneself, except all in constant motion.  This is a lever (it it helps, picture only the end part of ikkyō-omote, before you take uke all the way to the ground.  How do you prevent uke from standing up?  By maintaining a strong posture, and extending the arm gripping uke's elbow, which creates the fulcrum from which you can pull uke's wrist toward you.  The other end of the lever is uke's body, where the more you pull his wrist toward you, the more his body is leveraged down to the floor.)  Now all of that represents only a moment in time, but isn't this same physical structure that you are using throughout the entire range of motion; from the initial pickup of uke's arm until uke hits the floor?  Can you do ikkyō without controlling the wrist?  Was that at all coherent? Bradford44 16:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm a bit hesitant about the term 'pulling'.  The way I've been taught ikkyo, both arms are meant to be fully extended from takedown to pin.  But in a way the hand does come towards the body.  Hmmmm.  I'm not sure if the term is accurate or not - I think it depends how you conceptualize it - but either way, I don't think it's currently necessary. --GenkiNeko 17:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  Howdy Bradford44... I agree with GenkiNeko - I would use the term fulcrum long, long before I ever used the term 'pulling'.  While my arms or hands may be moving towards me because uke is moving that direction, I never use muscles to pull uke - that just pulls uke into a position that he can counter (often with Gedan-ate).  I realize this isn't an place to discuss how techniques work, but the answer to all your questions is that you prevent uke from standing up by keeping him off-balance.  And since it is an elbow technique, my answer would be yes, it could be done without controlling the wrist, although it would probalby take someone pretty skilled to do so.  My one line definition of ikkyō would be something like "get off-line while taking uke's balance by pushing through his elbow.  As uke moves, nage moves as well, keeping uke off-balance as he is guided to the floor".  Opppps... two lines!  Mrand 02:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm content with whatever wording you settle on, and perfectly happy to agree to disagree.  I did want to make clear however, that I never meant to imply that that both arms were other than extended throughout the entire movement.Bradford44 15:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Based upon your latest statement, I'm not sure we disagree all that much - but I think our discussion is a very good example of why accurate wording for describing even just the basic concept of each technique may be VERY difficult to compose, EVEN if there is a general agreement on how the technique is done.  Many words can be interpreted too many ways.  This is why I'm hesitant to even have a "list of techniques", at least in the main article (so I definitely agree with moving it to a seperate article).  Best regards, Mrand 17:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ikkyō

message: * If we're going to go for concision, nikkyo could be called simply "an adductive wristlock technique."
:The fact that it is extremely painful should probably also be included. Bradford44 18:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a note to this effect, although in general I think it's a bit redundant.  Just about any jointlock is painful. --GenkiNeko 20:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ikkyo is close to being the exception, especially if you exclude a hand grip.  However, the pin is quite painful, especially if the arm is not allowed to rest fully flat against the ground.  And the shoulder pressure from a rapid "otoshi" takedown can be pretty intense.  Sankyo is also another obviously painful lock. --GenkiNeko 15:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nikyō

message: * I'm unsure about iriminage.  I think I can agree with the recent edit (down to just "though often very little force is required"), but I could see an argument for a rewrite.  Really, the signature visual aspect of iriminage is the outstretched arm hooking past uke's head.  As for the mechanism of action, well, it's kind of complicated, isn't it?  What do people think?
:Iriminage encompasses the entire category of entering techniques, so perhaps the entry should be similar to how kokyūnage is written.  One possibility is something like, "- the term for any of various throws where nage executes the throw by crossing through the space occupied by uke.  This technique most often has the appearance of "clotheslining" uke." Bradford44 18:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Iriminage

message: Hi Genki - I wholeheartedly agree with your desire for literal accuracy in the parenthetical translations of the throws, but "shaped-like-'ten'" is pretty literally accurate.  "Ji" means sign or character by itself, but when placed after a number, the new compound becomes an adjective that literally means shaped like whatever number precededes "ji".  I even found an online dictionary that listed the adjective definitions of "jūji" as: "crossed" or "cruciform". Would you be happy with "ten-shaped throw", instead?  Calling it the "cruciform throw" might be a bit weird, I think ;) Bradford44 19:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True.  After all, we don't list kotegaeshi as "small-hand-return".  I think I'll switch it to "shaped-like-'ten'" for now, unless someone has a better idea.  --GenkiNeko 20:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jūjinage

message: This article is getting close to "Good" status, I think!  Aside from the above-mentioned questions  (which are sort of polishing-level anyway), I believe the main thing is to keep working on the latter part of the article, which still seems a bit unintegrated. GenkiNeko 16:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the input.  (And just to clarify again - when I say I disagree, I don't mean I think it was a bad edit or anything.  Wikipedia evolves through this process.)  I'll try to implement this discussion in a new version. --GenkiNeko 20:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I actually thought about that myself, Mrand.  I was thinking, "Hmm, we talk all about blending and stuff above, but then we just list a bunch of jointlocks and other anatomy stuff."  However, I'm not sure there's an easy way to incorporate any of that, largely because, it seems to me, the real "aiki" comes in during the implementation.  I can't say how the energy exchange works "in ikkyo", because it totally depends on which iteration of ikkyo it is.  Furthermore, while the timing aspect is somewhat elusive when one tries to put it into words, the "Grab here, twist there, step through to there..." is very clear.  Maybe this is just my Yoshokai bias, but I think it's perhaps best to have minimalist descriptions that just show the basic anatomy of what's going on, at least for this section.  After all, to use the above example, -every- ikkyo has the basic elbow/shoulder control in common. --GenkiNeko 15:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay.  That's not true.  It'd be my Yoshokai bias to "have -extremely detailed- descriptions that show the -entire- anatomy of what's going on".  ^_-  --GenkiNeko 15:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Overall for Throws/Immobilizations

message: At Finland we have also few techniques not mentioned on list:(are they not used??) 
Gokyo (usually tanto technique wrist is controlled, other ways like ikkyo)
::I'm familiar with this technique.  It's certainly done in Iwama, along with "rokkyo" and so on.  In Yoshokai, I don't -believe- that Gokyo is a commonly practiced technique, though what's called "rokkyo" we just call "hijikime-osae" (elbow lock).   I'd say feel free to add them in with the aikikai names of Gokyo and Rokkyo.  --GenkiNeko 15:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haven't seen that variant.  In general, I'd suggest against describing both the throw -and- pin variations of each technique separately.  Pretty much any pin can be a throw, and vice versa.  So I don't think kaitenosae quite qualifies as a "class of techniques", like the others. --GenkiNeko 15:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds a lot like hiji-ate-nage (Yoshokai: "hitting elbow throw") or ... well, I think they call it just kokyunage in Iwama.  I'd suggest putting it in as ... hmm.  Is the Aikikai terminology also "Kokyunage"?  I assume this is referring to the "extend uke's arm to the side, step forward with hand palm-up, slide uke's arm along the curve of your bicep while switching to palm down to throw"? --GenkiNeko 15:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I was referring to that technique.Korppi76 08:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: This sounds a lot like a lock I learned from a Soo Bahk Do friend who also does aikido.  In aikido terms, it seems like it's in the same family as shihonage and udegarame.  I'm not sure it quite merits an entry: it -is- certainly a technique, but maybe not a bread-and-butter "class of techniques" like the others. --GenkiNeko 15:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I have seen this, but don't know its proper name.  I'd say it's arguably worth including on the main list. --GenkiNeko 15:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, the intro to the techniques section references Aikikai terminology, and I don't think that the section was ever intended to include every technique we could think of, but rather a good sample of mostly universal, core techniques.  Maybe a logical place to stop would be including only the techniques listed in the Aikikai promotional requirements on the Aikikai Honbu website. Bradford44 16:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Techniques not yet included

message: An anonymous IP address added a line to the effect that aiki means "love or harmony".  Personally, I find this a stretch.  Harmony is understandable, but "love" is just a bit too far.  I'm not saying that aiki isn't ultimately about love, in the cosmic sense, but I wouldn't say that aiki "means" love.  What do other people think?  Personally, I favor not including a direct translation of aiki: they see "match or fit" and "spirit" for the individual kanji above, and are free to piece together whatever meaning they think it has from that, and the descriptions that follow.  --GenkiNeko 23:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aiki Translation 

message: The maintainer of the AikidoFAQ suggested to me that images of O-sensei might be public domain, or at least licensed by Hombu for purposes of promoting aikido.  Personally, I'm skeptical of this, but I'd like to ask what you all think.  A couple of those would certainly be an excellent addition to this page.  --GenkiNeko 20:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm.  True on both counts. --GenkiNeko 16:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  O-sensei Images 

message: An anonymous IP address removed the entire third paragraph of this section.  I really can't tell whether or not it was meant to be vandalism.  The section removed was:
:Aikido was born out of three Enlightenment experiences of Ueshiba. In each of these, he felt a divine inspiration leading him away from the violent nature of his previous martial training towards a "spirit of peace". As Ueshiba would later remark, "When life is victorious, there is birth; when it is thwarted, there is death. A warrior is always engaged in a life-and-death struggle for Peace."
I have to admit there's something a little off about this section, but I'm thinking we should modify rather than remove.  Anyway.  Just checking to see if we should revert this or not (wanted to give the person the benefit of the doubt.) --GenkiNeko 16:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see no reason for this assumption that edits by anonymous users should automatically be given less weight than those of registered users. The section as quoted above are highly un-encyclopaedic in the tone, and it is good that it is no more included in the article. // habj 13:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spirit of Aikido - Paragraph Deletion 

message: Someone put cationed the picture at the top of the page with an explanation that it "looks like kokyunage".  The first point is that it shouldn't be captioned that it "looks like" anything, it should either say what throw it "is" or not.  Second, to me it looks like it is iriminage.  However, I have noticed a big divide between whether certain techniques are called iriminage or kokyunage across the various aikido organizations.  I don't care if the picture has no caption at all, but we should get a consensus on whether the technique being demonstrated is a kokyunage or an iriminage if it is going to be named.Bradford44 16:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly couldn't say what kind of throw that is, just based on that picture.  How many techniques end with nage in that zanshin posture?  In Yoshokai, one never (I can't think of exceptions) does a zenpo kaiten from iriminage - it's either koho ukemi or hyaku koho ukemi (back-breakfall or, more correctly, jumping back breakfall.)  But I've seen other schools do an iriminage that uke rolls out of.  I think the current caption is worth keeping.  --GenkiNeko 17:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It looks like Mae Otoshi to me.  Mrand 17:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Picture Caption

message: I feel like this is getting pretty close to Good Article status.  The main issue I can see is the Hapkido debate.  Frankly, I think a token mention of Hapkido, that only mentions the debate (which should be documented more thoroughly on the Hapkido page instead), would be sufficient.  Does anyone see any other issues that need to be addressed before submitting for GA status? --GenkiNeko 19:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good Article?