Category talk:Biography articles without listas parameter

message: Listas is a parameter found in the coding of the WikiProject Biography box and operates like DEFAULTSORT.
It is a sneaky, hidden and poorly documented template parameter which is one of the primary causes of the weird sorting orders in many categories, especially the maintenance categories created by those boxes and other maintence categories more likely to appear on talk pages.
The problem is that we have a very rudimentary, simplistic sort mechanism.  Everything in the sort key is sorted.  That includes spaces, punctuation marks, whatever.  But it isn't sorted in accordance with anybody's sorting rules.  It is simply sorted in accordance with Unicode numbers.  
The essential factors that need to be noted, and that need to be included in the instructions to people who will be using "listas" or "DEFAULT" sort include these points:
#Start the sort key with an uppercase letter to insure case-insensitivity at that level.  Ideally, we should probably have totally case-insensitive sorting, but to change that just using sort keys rather than through some software change would be problematic.  
#Do not include ANY alphabetic characters other than the 26 letters of the English alphabet.   No diacritics whatsoever.
#Strip most punctuation from the sort key, especially if it is the first character in an article's name.  The comma followed by a space is the conventional separator between surname and given name in people articles; it should be there, even if the name order is the same as in the article name, as in "Chan, Wai Ho" as the sort key for Chan Wai Ho.
See Wikipedia:Categorization of people#Ordering names in a category for more essential pointers. Note that this applies not only to articles about people, but to all articles. 
One advantage linkas has over DEFAULTSORT is :Category:Biography articles with listas parameter.  It would be nice if somebody would help out and use that to start cleaning up the problems I mentioned.  You could start by fixing everything that comes after Z.  Gene Nygaard 05:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your effort, but that's about as clear as Trinity River mud, amigo. Why would you have a sortkey for the talk page?? Please clarify further; when exactly (and why) should it be used? (I only ask this because the category listing that I've seen on biography articles seems to imply not having one is a flaw, but this doesn't tell me what to do about it.) Thanks! Eaglizard 13:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason is that it is helpful for large, unsorted categories of people to be sorted by surname. This applies as much to talk pages as to the actual article. For example, :Category:Science and academia work group articles. Hopefully the rewritten documentation at Template:WPBiography will make this clearer now. Carcharoth 21:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I think that I kind of understand what it is now--but how does one use it?  I get that it goes in the box on the talk page, but beyond that I don't know what to do.  Could an example of usage maybe be provided? Also, just to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly, this is mostly for royalty and others who shouldn't be sorted by surname, right?  74.140.196.72 11:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is exactly equivalent to DEFAULTSORT on the article page. It is more important to put a DEFAULTSORT value on the article page for all biographical articles, so that they sort correctly in their categories. This saves having to put the pipe-sort value into the category tag. The listas on the talk page is convenient to keep things sorted correctly in the assessment and maintenance categories, but in the long run the need is to standardise. Some articles have listas on their talk page, but no DEFAULTSORT, and vice-versa. The advantage of listas is that the category can be used to see which talk pages lack listas (it is difficult to do this for articles to find out which ones lack DEFAULTSORT). When the state is reached where listas and DEFAULTSORT are are both the same on any particular article, then then "lacks listas" category will effectively be a "lacks DEFAULTSORT" category. Essentially, this is a kludgy workaround, as despite several requests, no-one seems to want to make the changes needed to track usage of DEFAULTSORT. Carcharoth 12:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That makes much more sense now.  Thanks greatly for your explanation!  74.140.196.72 00:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oy Vey.  It's a cure without a disease.  Oy Vey.RabbiVelocicaptor15 16:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, so where do I find a category for all the articles which "have listas" so that I can find all those where people have incorrectly used accented letters and the like in the "listas"?  Gene Nygaard 12:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Nevermind.  I found it.  Gene Nygaard 12:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about something like :Category:Biography articles without listas parameter for DEFAULTSORT? If we're "supposed" to bu using DEFAULTSORT instead of listas, we could certainly use a pair of tracking categories.  — AnnaKucsma  Speak! 14:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''What is a listas parameter'' ? 

message: Could you add some examples - or brief usage either at the start of this page or on the template, I was just quickly popping here to see how to add it, just needed the basics... Leevanjackson (talk) 12:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, in WikiProject Biography banner - thus . Rich Farmbrough, 21:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  some examples 

message: Please register below with your user name, method of working, special expertise, time zone and comments as you feel are appropriate.  The last three will become important as we get closer to the end.
*JimCubb
**Manual - constructing values from the DEFAULTSORT, the relevant naming conventions articles, usage in the article and reliable sources in the article.
**None in particular although I probably know more about the naming conventions of the systems who have articles than I should.
**UTC-7
**I also do minor fixes that I notice need to be done such as put the DEFAULTSORT above the categories on the article page, add the living value if it is missing, verify stubs that are automatically detected, and put WPBS if there are more than two project banners on the page.
*Mikaey
**Mostly automated.  My expertise is probably in programming, so I wield ListasBot and DefaultsortBot as my servants.  Not a whole lot of expertise in any particular naming convention.
**CST
**My modus operandi is to figure out how to automate as much of the work as possible, and leave as little as possible for the human editors...hence the bots.
*Rpyle731
**Manual and semi-automated, trying to fix listas and other phrases in WPBio and other templates.
*Pacific Time Zone
**I try to do a chunk here and there when I have a chance.
*User:OccultZone
**Long overdue but never too late.
*User:Rich Farmbrough
**Have fixed many tens of thousands in the past.  Hoping to clear this five year backlog as soon as possible - using all the tools at my disposal.
*User:sbbarker19
**I'm just picking randomly
*User:Dreamy Jazz
**I do some irregularly. I tend to focus on those which are easy to clear via AWB as the surname is in an expected format.
*SITH (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who Is Here? 

message: As of a few seconds ago the backlog dropped below 100,000 — a mere shadow of its former self.
Rejoice! 
All hail Listasbot who did most of the work.
:JimCubb (talk) 22:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  BULLETIN 

message: Look at how many of the members of this category are Bands or other Musical Ensembles.  Why are they even in the purview of the project?
Be that as it may, since some one feels or felt strongly enough about the ListAs parameter to form a page that is populated by its absence, I will start at the top and work my way to the end, fixing the ones that are obvious.  I will also put the DEFAULTSORT on the main page if it is missing.
Is anyone else working on this?
JimCubb (talk) 21:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Are Bands In This Project? 

message: I am working on :Category:Pages with DEFAULTSORT conflicts.  The conflicts are mainly of two types.
#A page is covered by two projects whose templates use the listas parameter, i.e., each template sets the sort criterion for the page.  One has a completed listas parameter and the other does not.
#Some one (or a bot) put a DEFAULTSORT after all the templates, and it conflicts with any of the listas values.
If an editor is working on either the pages with the listas parameter or the pages without the listas parameter, great care needs to be taken to insure that all the project templates have the same value for the listas parameter (Some templates do not use it but I have not found one yet that complains if it is there.) and delete any DEFAULTSORT line on the page.  (The DEFAULTSORT line should be pasted onto the article page if one is not there but that involves a lot more time even though it will have to be done eventually.)
Isn't this fun!
:JimCubb (talk) 00:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Be Very Careful

message: After over 2,000 edits resolving DEFAULTSORT conflicts and adding listas parameters I have observed some difficulties with assigning the listas parameter and specifically with the use of a bot to assign the listas parameter.
*There are two main ways to convert "Æ" and one rarely used way.  Some editors merely break it apart so that Ælfflæd of Mercia becomes Aelfflæd of Mercia.  Some editors go for what I believe was customary for many years, convert it to "E", so that Ælfric II becomes Elfric.  (It should have been Elfric 02 and now is.)  Some editors, so few that I cannot find an example right now, convert it to "A".
*A bot or AWB can be useful in assigning the listas parameter.  It can also be disasterous.  The first examples of the latter are the 15 Egyptian pharaohs named "Ptolemy".  All of them have an epithet, Ptolemy I Soter, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, etc.  Some editor used a mechanical device to go through these so that the first two were made to list as "Soter, Ptolemy I" and "Philadelphus, Ptolemy II".  
*A Icelandic names confuse everyone even Icelandic editors.  Pipes are used on the article page for each of the categories.  For general categories the patronym is treated as a family name but for Iceland-specific categories the guideline is followed.  For example, Ásgeir Ásgeirsson has Category:1972 deaths|Asgeirsson. Asgeir but Category:Prime Ministers of Iceland|Asgeir Asgeirsson.
I don't know if there are answers to these dilemmas.  
*It would be nice to have a single universal conversion for "Æ" but I do not think it is going to happen and, even if it were to happen, changing the erroneous conversions would be a horrendous task.  
*There will always be editors who will try to automate a tedious task and there will always be editors who will be unable to conceive the problems that such automation can cause.  
*Iceland is not going to change its naming convention.
This is only a mild alert to the little difficulties that I have encountered and not inteded to be critical.
If anyone reads this, could something be done to encourage editors to work on this category?  It is growing despite the efforts of a very few of us to correct the problem.
:JimCubb (talk) 19:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Small trivia:The situation right now is: 375,812 articles without listas and 247,628 with. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

text: JimCubb (talk) 03:50, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Greetings, two thousand edits is quite a bit, and changing 248 thousand articles would require that amount of edits. Impressive.--Kiyarrlls-talk 03:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

text: JimCubb (talk) 00:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

text: JimCubb (talk) 23:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Observations & Questions 

message: There was discussion and a sort of consensus regarding sorting of Icelandic names here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Iceland#Sort_keys_for_Icelandic_names. I updated Wikipedia:Categorization of people#Sort by surname and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Iceland-related articles (which, for some reason has been tagged as ) to mention the last bullet in comment by User:Magioladitis there. Illia Connell (talk) 03:57, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Icelandic names

message: I propose that DEFAULTSORT and listas be the PAGENAME so that they will not appear in this category.  What say all of you?
:JimCubb (talk) 03:49, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories & Project Pages -- What to do? 

message: Now moved to Category talk:Biography articles without listas parameter/Archive/Biography articles with listas parameter to keep a record of past discussions. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Content of former "Category talk:Biography articles with listas parameter" added as historical reference

message: SmackBot is fixing up some talk pages by copying the DEFAULTSORT at last.  Of course there several bots that do this, however I think they have not been running recently. We are about 35k when I started, short term target to get back under 30k again. Rich Farmbrough, 00:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: A little progress

message: Per the above thread, is is possible to get Smackbot back on the task? The count is now 60k+. – S. Rich (talk) 19:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  More progress needed 

message: We are currently around 144,000.  I am making renewed attempts to reduce the number to as near zero as possible by the end of the year, in memory of Jim Cubb. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:49, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Down to 127k.  A lot to do in just over a month! All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:39, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Under 100k! All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:16, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

text: Under 80k.... All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

text: 65k, but I have been ill for a few days. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:49, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

text: Nearly down to 50k.... All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:09, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

text: 34,326.. getting there... All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 11:27, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

text: 16,821 goal met, I think.  I can still do some more.  Lets see how it goes. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:59, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: New vigour

message: You can use a fork of the quarry SQL query I use to get keywords in the page name. This can be used if you want to target a surname or keyword. The SQL is at https://quarry.wmflabs.org/query/29855. 
I also use User:Evad37/rater.js, which can autofill the listas parameter and determine class/importance automatically. Thanks for helping with the backlog. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 17:36, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, . I use that SQL for finding articles that don't need sorting but need a listas parameter still (bands, duos, dynasties, royal families etc) Nat965 (talk) 20:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your welcome. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 20:41, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  SQL query and script that has helped me to tackle this backlog 

message: Hello. I've come across this category and would like to help tackle the backlog. My question is, how should I use listas for article names that are disambiguated? For example Arsen Harutyunyan (wrestler) would be listas= Harutyunyan, Arsen, but what about the (wrestler) part? Thanks! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:Categorization of people#Ordering names in a category. In brief:  --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:52, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  What to do with brackets?