Talk:Luis Posada Carriles/Archive 2

message: Regardless of what I think regarding whether or not Posada is a terrorist, I think it's inappropriate for WP to use that word except under attribution (a campaign that Cuba calls terrorist), esp. not in the first sentence.  For more on why, see Wikipedia:Words to avoid. DanKeshet 00:51, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
:I too strongly oppose describing groups or individuals as terrorists in the editorial voice because it is a highly subjective matter. However, I think is is acceptable to label an act terrorism. Most people agree that blowing up an airplane or whatever is a terrorist act, whoever does it. This is the approach we've used in Shining Path for example. -- Viajero | Talk 09:14, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. So we should revert the Category reference here? Or is this change leading toward elimination of the category "terrorist"? DJ Silverfish 14:47, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: sigh... those damn categories. We just voted to get rid of :Category:Terrorist organizations. Now we are voting on its subcategories which should have been deleted with the parent category. (see: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2005_May_20, please vote). :Category:Terrorists   will have to be listed as well. -- Viajero | Talk 15:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: re: Is he a terrorist? American definition - "The calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature...through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear." British definition - "Terrorism is the use, or threat, of action which is violent, damaging or disrupting, and is intended to influence the government or intimidate the public and is for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause." -- LamontCranston 13:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "terrorist" campaigns 

message: An interesting article was published today about Carriles, Bosch, and related topics. See: 
Ze miguel 09:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting Article 

message: As reported on CBC Evening News (nothing yet on their website), the US has sounded out Canada as a possible place to extradite Carriles, and were refused.  Someone may want to add this to the article.  --T. Mazzei 02:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada 

message: I am going to remove the following:
"Critics of this kind of diplomacy note that not only has Cuba provided to sanctuary to a wide array of terror organizations from the Colombian FARC to the Saharan Polisario; and that Hugo Chavez has tried to get Carlos the Jackal freed from French prison[33][34]"
Neither of the references given provide any support for the FARC, Polisario connection.  The two supporting links for the other implication here - that Chavez supports C. the J. hence supports terrorism - are dubious.  [33] contains no specific reference of Chavez at all; it's just a summary of C. the J.  [34] does state this connection, but provides no references itself or explanation of sources.  It also (in many other articles) refers to other publications for supporting points but fails cite them in a referencable way.
It may be that the information here is indeed correct.  If so, please provide better citations (or vis-a-vis FARC/Polisario *any* citation at all) and reinstate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.159.88.45 (talk) 14:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious Assertion 

message: Yeah, Roger Noriega may have questioned whether Carriles is in the US, but Carriles' lawyer doesn't: .  What does the Noriega quote even mean ("may be a manufactured issue")?  DanKeshet 17:33, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
Sounds like he's denying the allegations because they come from Cuba.  Maybe a longer quote would show that more clearly. DJ Silverfish 18:39, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  roger noriega 

message: This is a highly politized case, Apparently despite all of this Posada was held pending trial for almost nine years. If it took that long to finish the case, it would seem that the charges were not readily provable.  That seems a bit too long.  Removing those references do not agree with ones point of view is equivalent to censure. El Jigüe 4-7-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 17:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased deletions 

message: It is my understanding that Posdas Carriles actually confessed many of the crimes we was suspected, so many of these accusations are in fact much more than mere allegations.  I think this should be more reflected in the article.--190.48.96.201 05:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to FBI files Posada was present at two meetings planning the attack on flight 455 and he was named in a report made the day after the attack so he was involved in some capacity. According to CIA files Posada was recruited as an agent in Feb 1961 (terminated in July 1967 and reinstated in Nov 1967) and was an active CIA agent until 1974 when the CIA became worried over his Mafia connections and the use he was making of explosives the CIA had given him. From 1985 Posada (AKA Ramon Medina) worked for Ollie North smuggling arms (Iran/Contra) and gave an interview to the NYT during this period in which he admitted to the Havana bombings. FBI and CIA files document most of his terrorist activities in great detail. However they are all allegations until he is found guilty no matter how much evidence there is. Wayne 10:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confessions 

message: An editor has added a few lines that are unsourced, and appear to be original research. One in particular caught my eye which read
...and included such doctrines as the 'killings' of the top leaders to stall 'political' movements the US did not approve of [often referred to by US political analysts as the Kissinger Doctrine]. 
It should be noted that Posada actually allegedly attempted to have Kissinger killed for rapproachment with Cuba in the 1970s, so this is way off the mark.--Zleitzen 01:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions 

message: An Italian businessman, Fabio di Celmo, was killed and 11 people wounded as a result. Fabio di Celmo is son of Giustino di Celmo a PhD. in Political Science University of Havana, partisan guerrilla in WWII and a commmunist of long standing.|by Luis Hernández Serrano | 2003 "Fabio Di Celmo El Muchacho del Copacabana" |Cuba si  El Jigue208.65.188.149 17:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fabio di Celmo 

message: The historical figure Laredo Bru is commonly viewed as a puppet president placed in power by Batista; however, he was also the last Mambi to hold the Cuban presidency. As to contributor "Laredo Bru" the expression "nonsense" is not a very good argument, since such merely expresses POV. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laredo Bru 

message: It is quite apparent that insertion of pro-Castro/pro-Chavez POV continues without explanation or rationalization. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. Enough said. Cuban intelligence has provided a whole lot of the data about Carriles, and of course given that it is the Cuban government their allegations should be taken at face value, but the data should be included nonetheless just like the OBL page routinely includes allegations provided by US government sources. I mean, I think the allegory of "Carriles is to Cuba as Bin Laden is to the US" holds up perfectly -- both states have been attacked by said terrorist, and both states have reason to try and smear said terrorist, but then again both states have taken it upon themselves to investigate said terrorist, so why should we totally discount the information said governments have to provide. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Insertion of pro-Castro/pro-Chavez POV continues 

message: Many details of Posada's career are found in his book Camino del Guerrero (The Way of the Warrior) which denies involvement in the destruction of flight 455 and details how he helped destroy the Pro-Castro Venezulan forces and other actions in  Central America.Posada Carriles, Luis 1994 (accessed 4-13-07) Los Caminos del Guerrero. Latin American Studies    El Jigue 4-13-07208.65.188.149 15:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Way of the Warrior 

message: I've simplified the lead and added Posada's point of view.-- Zleitzen(talk) 09:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reverted you, you removed sources. Please take into account the controversial nature of this subject before removing information, and we will be grateful for your help in making a better lead. Tazmaniacs 01:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I've just reverted you. There shouldn't actually need to be any sourced material in the lead which should be a summary of the text in the main body of the article see WP:LEAD. The previous lead was difficult to follow, didn't properly explain the subject matter and was full of material cited to unreliable sources. And your revert removed material showing Posadas point of view sourced to the BBC. As for "taking account of the controversial nature of this subject", I wrote most of the article, so I am fully aware of what the subject entails.-- Zleitzen(talk) 07:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simplified lead 

message: The subsection "notes" appears to be a left-over from precedent versions. Perhaps someone who has followed this entry can have the references formatted in one, simple, way? Tazmaniacs 01:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes & references 

message: Ann Louise Bardach was granted exclusive interviews with Fidel Castro; however, critics of her work are quick to point out that such interviews are rarely or never granted to those who might criticize the Cuban government, and one of Ms. Bardash's articles was subject to successful litigation . Random House promotion page| .<ref name=”Cobas”>Cobas, Michelle Marie “Mass Media Ethics vs Ethnic Identity: The Cuban American National Foundation's battle with the Miami Herald” MS thesis Louisiana State University 2001 | |     One must bear in mind that unlike some other countries litigation against public figures is much more difficult in the US, thus the settlement paid by Ms. Bardach is of some significance and seriously undermines her credibility. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please elaborate on this litigation EJ. What it entailed etc, what were the claims, who made them, and how they relate to this article. I think I know what they are, but for the record, could you explain them here? (here is a source that discussed them) If I recall, the 1994 litigation, which had nothing to do with Posada, was due to the New York Times adding a headline of its own to one of her pieces. (update:Actually, having revisited the issue it seems it was the New Republic not the New York Times) As for "such interviews are rarely or never granted to those who might criticize the Cuban government", well she does criticise the Cuban government, though that is not a  pre-requisite for a leading journalist to be included as a reliable source. You seem to be clutching at straws here, EJ.-- Zleitzen(talk) 15:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm in complete disagreement with you here EJ. And I think you are on dangerous ground implying that Bardach's writings about Posada, which have remained uncontested both inside and outside court, are somehow compromised by a litigation in 1994 that had nothing to do with Posada, and actually had little to do with Bardach who merely provided the story about Mas - which was uncontested - whilst the magazine added "mobster" to the title which they were forced to retract. So I believe all your insertions here need to be removed.-- Zleitzen(talk) 15:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

text: To further dispute your characterisation of Bardach as uncritical of Castro. Read this interview where she takes Oliver Stone to task for his soft approach to difficult questions in his Castro movies . Now if we were discussing Oliver Stone, then I'd be in complete agreement, but having read Bardach's book and other pieces, I am left with the impression she is as critical of Castro as she is of the Miami leadership.-- Zleitzen(talk) 15:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ann Louise Bardach data was subjected to litigation 

message: BTW In all probability this situation will continue for years for example the role of the Cuban Communist Party in the murder of Mella is cropping up even among Russian Communists and excommunists:
Schelchkov, Andrei 2002 (accessed 5-4-07) Los estudios latinoamericanos en Rusia (y en la URSS) Revista Europea de Estudios Latinoamericanos y del Caribe 72, abril de 2002, 205-220   “Una de las esferas importantes de los estudios latinoamericanos en la Rusia actual son las investigaciones de los archivos de la Internacional Comunista, de problemas de los movimientos de izquierda y de historia política. En 1998 el Centro de Estudios Latinoamericanos publicó una compilación de documentos de dicho archivo, con vastos comentarios y notas: La Internacional Comunista y América Latina. Después de ésta ha continuado publicando documentos raros e interesantes de dicho archivo en las páginas del Almanaque histórico latinoamericano editado por el Instituto de Historia Universal (Lat.am.istoricheskii almanakh 2000 No. 1, 2001 No. 2). L. Kheifetz editó un diccionario biográfico de los líderes del Komintern en América Latina (Kheifetz 2000). I. Yanchuk, N. Kalmikov y A. Schelchkov publicaron varios trabajos dedicados a temas del Komintern (Latinskaia Amerika 1994, No. 5, 1996, No. 5, 1997 No. 7). Hoy, los autores tienen acceso a documentos únicos del archivo de la IC y la posibilidad de análisis objetivos, desideologizados de acontecimientos y procesos relacionados con el movimiento comunista. No obstante, todavía nos hallamos lejos de tal situación: algunos historiadores han caído en la trampa del sensacionalismo, como por ejemplo Kheifetz, que insinúa la participación de los líderes del partido comunista de Cuba en el asesinato de Mella (Lat.am. istoricheskii almanakh 2001 No. 2); otros investigadores, y no solamente rusos, como demostró la discusión en la sección de Historia del Komintern realizada durante el congreso de la FIEALC en Moscú en 2001, analizan los problemas de este tema desde un punto de vista demasiado doctrinario, especulando sobre si la política de la IC había sido suficientemente ‘marxista y no dogmática’. Este contenido de la discusión es una vía poco fructífera para investigaciones que tengan como objetivo
descubrir la realidad histórica objetiva.” El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mella Murder redoux redoux... 

message: One should also keep in mind that Hugo Chavez who is so interested in trying Posada, has frequently tried to get "Carlos the Jackal"  freed in France , El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  comparison to Carlos the Jackal 

message: I've archived undated and 2005 and 2006 subjects.  If you wish to continue any of those discussion subjects or feel that they should be considered still, please feel free to start them again here.  I feel that archiving is necessary for us to be able to clearly see what issues need to be considered now versus which ones have been settled. Fanra 03:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archived Past Subjects 

message: This article has  on top of it.  Would anyone have an objection if we could remove that and replace it with  in the section(s) you object to?  I feel that even if you object to large parts of this article, that there are likely to be at least a few sections (for example, the "U.S. Charges Dismissed" section) that you might agree are fine.  Thank you.  Fanra 03:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this. It would also help discuss POV issues in each specific section which would ultimately lead to getting them fixed. (Antonio.sierra 16:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV ISSUES PLEASE READ 

message: In a message to my page entitled May 2007
"Ali" writes:
 Please do not delete content from articles on Wikipedia, as you did to :Luis Posada Carriles.  Your edits appear to be  vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use Wikipedia:Sandbox for test edits. Thank you. Ali 16:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If this is a shared IP address, and you didn't make any unconstructive edits, consider creating an account for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant warnings.
My response was
Ali: I hope you are not the Venezuelan oil minister and former guerrilla Ali Rodriguez    nor Tariq Ali  )a paid partisan of Chavez since such would mean that you are part of the process and thus not allowed by Wikipedia rules to edit this article. BTW Your allegation of vandalism is incorrect. El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attempt to silence El Jigue yet again 

message: "Many charges of terrorism against Posada have been levied; however, few if any have been proven in a court of law. That does not mean they not true, it merely means they have not been proven."
I'm just a regular reader who doesn't edit, so I'm not going to change anything.  I'm just researching someone I'd never heard of before. The term in bold jarred when I read it.  Is it normal wikipedia style to add this statement to every mention of someone not found guilty?  Even from the point of view of someone who thinks he does seem a tad "over-militaristic" (sic), that bit sounded just like ramming the point home a bit too much to feel entirely nuetral .  It's the sort of 'add-on' comment expected of a partisan newspaper, not a reference work.  Thoughts?
[[User:Bodmass|] 23:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Summary of criticism......"   -  An unnecessary term used within? 

message: U.S. Court Frees Posada Carriles, a Self-Proclaimed Terrorist
"Posada Carriles's lawyer has preemptively warned that if charged, his client would likely reveal extensive collaboration with the CIA." -- Los Angeles Times
"Posada Carriles was trained in sabotage and explosives at the CIA's School of the Americas for an invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs."
I wonder if Posada Carriles knows anything about the involvement of George H. W. Bush in the assassanation of John F. Kennedy?
Could this have been his get out of jail free card?
Wisepiglet 02:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could this have been his get out of jail free card? 

message: This sentence, "National Security Archives reveal documents outlining that Posada warned the CIA months before the 1976 bombing that fellow exiles were planning such an attack." is undocumented.  The citation is for here: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB202/index.htm  I've looked at that site and while I find several reports of informants claiming Posada knew about the bombing beforehand, I can't find any reports dated before the bombing that say this.  If I can find even one report dated before the bombing that links Posada, I will go with it but right now it appears that all the information is after the fact.  If no one objects, I want to remove this sentence.  Fanra 22:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, what I have is that the CIA was warned that CORU was planning to bomb a plane.  I'm looking for more proof that Posada was a leader in CORU, then I can put that in the article instead.  If I don't find proof linking Posada with CORU, I'll still put in the information about CORU but add that it is alleged that he is a leader.  Fanra 22:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warned CIA before 1976 bombing? 

message: I would like to request when anyone puts in a citation that they use the method of http://www.goodsource.com rather than just put in .  That way all the citations can be of the same type and will be automatically listed at the bottom in the References section.  Thank you.  Fanra 23:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citing Sources 

message: The list linked shows 57 people while the article says 73 were aboard and all killed.  Thus, either only 57 people were aboard or the list is not complete.  The list also does not include the North Korean Diplomatic team mentioned.  The link "according to Posada" says nothing about Posada that I can read, although it is in Spanish and I had to use a translation web site to read it, still names should be the same in both Spanish and English.  I'm going to remove this until we can get it straightened out, sorry.  Fanra 23:23, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Passenger list 

message: The passenger list included representatives from a number of different countries. A partial list with photographs is found Professor Antonio de la Cova's Latin American studies site  the data comes from Cuban official sources. 
There were 27 victims identified as crew members or aviation officials and one spouse of the same:  Mérida, 32 años, sobre cargo internacional; Carlos. T CoqueroPerdomo, 43 años, inspector de segWilfredo Pérez Pérez, piloto. Héroe Nacional del Trabajo; Angel Tomás Rodríguez, 36 años, jefe de Preparación Técnica de Cubana de Aviación; Miguel Espinosa Cabrera, 47 años, copiloto del DC-8;  Ernesto Machín Guzmán, 40 años, mecánico;  Ramón J. Ferrándiz Lefebre, 39 años, sobrecargo mayor de Cubana de Aviación;    Magaly Grave de Peralta Ferrer,33 años, aeromoza de vuelosinternacionales;  Moraima GonzálezPrieto, 21 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; Marlene GonzálezArias, 23 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; Silvia Marta Pereira Jorge, 28 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales;  Miriam Remedios de la Peña, 24 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; María Elena Rodríguez del Rey Bocalandro, 28 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; Armando RamosPagán, 38 años, piloto de Cubana de Aviación;  Armando E. Armengol Alonso, 58 años, piloto de Cubana de Aviación; Valentín Ladrónde Guevara, 39 años, técnico de Cubana de Aviación;  José Pestana González, 41 años, jefe de departamento en Cubana de Aviación; Roberto G. Palacios Torres, 27 años, navegante de Cubana de Aviación;  Guillermo Valencia Guinot, 53 años, sobrecargo internacional; Eusebio Sánchez Domínguez, 25 años, sobre cargo internacional; Lázaro Serrano seguridad aeronáutica; Lázaro Otero Madruga, 34 años, inspector de ruta de Cubana de Aviación; Emilio Castillo Castillo, 33 años, inspector de vuelos de Cubana de Aviación; Carlos Cremata Trujillo, 41 años, despachador de vuelos de Cubana de Aviación; Martí Suárez Sánchez, 30 años, supervisor de tráfico aéreo internacional; Tomás J. González Quintana, 41 años, supervisor de control general de Cubana de Aviación; Manuel A. Rodríguez Font, 46 años, funcionario de Cubana de Aviación en Barbados; Julia Rosa Torres Alvarez, 46 años, esposa del jefe de la oficina de Cubana de Aviación en Barbados; Jesús Rojo Quintana, 33 años, funcionario de Cubana de Aviación,
There were 23 identified as athletic team members 
The North Korean Diplomatic team included: Juan Ne Ik, Kim Do Yen, Pak Je Chin, Kl Bong y Jan Sang Kyu according to Posada  it is not clear how Posada obtained this information. El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Passenger list

message: Working on getting mention of Invasion of Machurucuto  and its links to this topic. This article from Time shows some linkage to Cuban shipping  but as yet do not have one that says specifically "Cuban shrimping ship" or such to make the linkage to the shrimp boat officials killed on flight 455. El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  need mention of Machurucuto 

message: The word TERRORIST is the same as FREEDOM FIGHTER, it just depends on who says it..  That is why I feel in the first line of the article it should say " terrorist/freedom fighter".  Arafat was a terrorist to Israel yet to Arabs he is a freedom fighter..  What is the difference between Arafat and Posada?  Callelinea 02:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have to be kidding. Carriles is a terrorist under any difinition you like and is seen as such by everyone but apologists. He has been convicted of terrorist attacks in a court of law and even admitted it himself. What next? You want to classify al Qaeda as a militant organisation instead of terorist as well? Wayne 05:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I do admire your chutzpah for comparing Carriles to MLK, but the comparison doesn't wash. Also, what does a communist have to do with a terrorist. They are different, are they not? Griot 18:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: If Carrilles isn't a terrorist, who is? Is Bin Ladin a militant? What's at stack is the question of whether "terrorism" can be defined by an individual state or whether there is a universal definition of terrorism. By a universal definition, Carrilles is a terrorist. If terrorist acts committed in the name of the United States or some other entitiy are "militant" acts, then Carrilles may not be considerd a terrorist. I prefer the universal definition. I think we should have standards. Griot 18:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: HOw many hairs do you want to split. If a man plants a bomb that kills 73 civilians, he is a terrorist. I favor the universal definition. No matter what side a person is on or what his cause is, if he commits acts in the name of that cause by targeting innocent civilians, he is a terrorist. Griot 19:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you know why you "personally think Carilles is a terrorist"? Because he is one.  You say there is no formal definition of terrorism. Here's one: Terrorism is the killing of civilians or the threatening of civlians to advance a cause. If you blow up civilians in an airliner to advance your cause, whether it is endorsed by the United States or not, you are a terrorist.Griot 23:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word Terrorist 

message: In order to resolve the question of whether Carriles is a terrorist, it looks like we need a definition of this word. It's been suggested that one man's terrorist is anoother's freedom fighter or militant. For example, Yassar Arafat has been described as a terrorist. To my mind, a terrorist is one who works in a small cell unafiliated with a government or military organization who engages in violent acts not against other military or police entities, but against civilians. By this definition, Carriles is clearly a terrorist. His target in the airplane bombing were all civilians. He worked in a small cell of Cuban anti-Castro fighters. What we shouldn't do when we define "terrorist" is judge the rightness or wrongness of the terrorist's cause. The term applies to the means with which the person engages in action, not in whether the means was justified either at the time it was committed or by history.Griot 20:45, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wiki says the term "should be avoided." That doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. What Wiki is telling you is to use the term judisciously in cases where it really applies. As it does here. Griot 00:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: C'mon. How thinly do you want to slice this little hair? "Should be avoided" and "should not be used" do not mean the same thing. Driving in thunderstorms should be avoided. That doesn't mean you can't drive in a thunderstorm if you have a good reason to. Similarly the term "terrorist" should be avoided in Wiki articles, but if you have a good reason to use it, it can be used. How many people did Carriles kill in that airplane? Griot 20:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I don't think the fact that the cell is aligned or not with a government makes any difference. The military are trained for war. However, when you purposely attack civilians, that will scare other civilians, and most probably deter them from spontaneously joining whatever cause you're fighting against. This is something that is carried away by individuals, or cells and these are sometimes associated with governments. The CIA has historically resorted to this methods. That is the purpose of terrorism. That is what Posada Carriles did. The fact that the American government bastardized and manipulated the term to label and try to diminish all resistance in the world against them is a different subject.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.146.96.141 (talk) 04:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defining "terrorist": Does the word apply to Carilles? 

message: Writes:
"Hi. Look, you've been here for years now, but you're still conducting yourself as if you've been here for weeks: in terms of style, in terms of original research and clear citations, in terms of neutral point of view. This cannot continue indefinitely. Thanks. El_C 20:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  El C 

message: Rewording attempting NPOV has been inserted: "His opponents consider him a terrorist and label him as such; however, his supporters point out that details of Posada's involvement is not documented well enough to label him such, and the people he allegedly attacked, although there seems to have been considerable collateral lethality to innocents, involved some opposing violent activists." 
In addition, the words "a string of bombings" has been modified to reflect present reality.  Only one person was killed and he was an Italian communist carrying out unspecified activities.  El Jigue208.65.188.149
*"advocate of armed action to overthrow communist governments in Latin America."This is misleading.  In English an advocate is "A person who speaks in support of something." according to Wiktionary.  Posada isn't someone who just speaks.  He takes action.
:"His opponents consider him a terrorist and label him as such; however, his supporters point out that details of Posada's involvementis not documented well enough to label him such, and the people he allegedly attacked, although there seems to have been considerable collateral lethality to innocents, involved some opposing violent activists (North Korean agents, Cuban security forces, etc.)."This part belongs with the paragraph that begins, "Posada, nicknamed Bambi,[9] is regarded as a hero by some".
:In addition, you have bypassed our discussion above entitled, The word Terrorist, and just changed it on your own.  Please read that discussion.
:I would like to change what you put in.  I feel I can make it balanced and readable.  However, I hesitate to unilaterally change it because I wish to avoid an edit war.  I'm going to post on your personal talk page my version in the hopes you will approve.  Fanra 15:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attempted rewording 

message: I would like to know where you got the information that the only one killed was an Italian communist?  I do not remember anywhere written what is party affiliation was.  I only heard that he was an Italian tourist.  So unless you can back up that he was a member of the Communist Party of Italy may I suggest you refrain from putting in baised remarks.  Callelinea 19:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Next the sentence:  "Fabio di Celmo was the youngest son of Giustino di Celmo a PhD. in Political Science University of Havana, partisan guerrilla in WWII and a commmunist of long standing," - Is both unclear and unnecessary.  The sentence doesn't make it clear if Fabio or Giustino has the PhD., was in WWII and a communist. But more importantly, there is no need for it at all.  Unless there is something special about him, there isn't even a reason to name him, although that is ok.  But going into his life story, unless it relates to this somehow, is not for this article but for one on Fabio, if we would ever make one, which I don't see as desirable.  Fanra 20:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Secondly, and most important, his political views are TOTALLY unimportant.  If he was an agent of the government and was killed for that reason, rather than just happen to be the random victim of an indiscriminate bombing, as appears to be the case, then it would be important.  I would guess that over 50% of the Cuban people might call themselves Communists but that has nothing to do with the fact that they are civilians.  Again, it is the duty of anyone editing here to prove that their contribution is valid, not my job to prove it isn't.  Fabio di Celmo could have been a child molester but unless Posada targeted him in an attempt to kill off child molesters, it is irrelevant to this article.   Fanra 16:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fabio di Celmo 

message: Cut from article, inferring "lack of objectivity" in the Posada case from this source is original research:
Hugo Chavez' lack of objectivity in regard to terrorism in general is readily demonstrated by comparing his demands to try Posada with his calling Carlos the Jackal, "a good friend."Chavez: 'Carlos the Jackal' a 'Good Friend', NewsMax.com, June 3, 2006
JRSP 11:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: Critical details on the natute of the passengers aboard  been excised from this section.  
The passenger list included representatives from a number of different countries. A partial list with photographs is found Professor Antonio de la Cova's Latin American studies site [3] the data comes from Cuban official sources. Examination of this list and Posada's list of North Koreans (see below), plus the report that fencing team members were in Cuban armed forces were in Cuban Army uniforms. The frequent reports that the Cuban fishing vessels were used to land guerrillas especially in Venezula, have lead to the interpretation that the senior administrators of these operations were legitimate military targets.
There were 27 victims identified as crew members or aviation officials and one spouse of the same: Mérida, 32 años, sobre cargo internacional; Carlos. T CoqueroPerdomo, 43 años, inspector de segWilfredo Pérez Pérez, piloto. Héroe Nacional del Trabajo; Angel Tomás Rodríguez, 36 años, jefe de Preparación Técnica de Cubana de Aviación; Miguel Espinosa Cabrera, 47 años, copiloto del DC-8; Ernesto Machín Guzmán, 40 años, mecánico; Ramón J. Ferrándiz Lefebre, 39 años, sobrecargo mayor de Cubana de Aviación; Magaly Grave de Peralta Ferrer,33 años, aeromoza de vuelosinternacionales; Moraima GonzálezPrieto, 21 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; Marlene GonzálezArias, 23 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; Silvia Marta Pereira Jorge, 28 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; Miriam Remedios de la Peña, 24 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; María Elena Rodríguez del Rey Bocalandro, 28 años, aeromoza de vuelos internacionales; Armando RamosPagán, 38 años, piloto de Cubana de Aviación; Armando E. Armengol Alonso, 58 años, piloto de Cubana de Aviación; Valentín Ladrónde Guevara, 39 años, técnico de Cubana de Aviación; José Pestana González, 41 años, jefe de departamento en Cubana de Aviación; Roberto G. Palacios Torres, 27 años, navegante de Cubana de Aviación; Guillermo Valencia Guinot, 53 años, sobrecargo internacional; Eusebio Sánchez Domínguez, 25 años, sobre cargo internacional; Lázaro Serrano seguridad aeronáutica; Lázaro Otero Madruga, 34 años, inspector de ruta de Cubana de Aviación; Emilio Castillo Castillo, 33 años, inspector de vuelos de Cubana de Aviación; Carlos Cremata Trujillo, 41 años, despachador de vuelos de Cubana de Aviación; Martí Suárez Sánchez, 30 años, supervisor de tráfico aéreo internacional; Tomás J. González Quintana, 41 años, supervisor de control general de Cubana de Aviación; Manuel A. Rodríguez Font, 46 años, funcionario de Cubana de Aviación en Barbados; Julia Rosa Torres Alvarez, 46 años, esposa del jefe de la oficina de Cubana de Aviación en Barbados; Jesús Rojo Quintana, 33 años, funcionario de Cubana de Aviación,
There were 23 identified as athletic team members. The North Korean Diplomatic team included: Juan Ne Ik, Kim Do Yen, Pak Je Chin, Kl Bong y Jan Sang Kyu according to Posada [4] it is not clear how Posada obtained this information.
[The above comment was unsigned]
*[Reply to unsigned comment above]  PLEASE READ THIS DISCUSSION PAGE BEFORE POSTING
:It has already been posted here along with my point that it doesn't belong in the article.  Please read what I posted.  If you disagree with my points, then please address them with specific reasons why each of my points is invalid.  Thank you.  Fanra 16:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Passenger list 

message: On what basis is the U.S. refusing the extradition request from Venezuela?  It would be helpful if the article would set forth the U.S. government's position on the matter, along with any notable criticisms of the official rationale. JamesMLane t c 09:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Venezuela's extradition request 

message: I have noticed that people are removing my POV tag from the word "terrorist" in this article. While you might feel the word terrorist is appropriate (even though WP:Words to avoid says not to use it), are you claiming that there is no dispute over its use? Because I dispute it and so do some other people. What the tag means is that some people disagree over whether it belongs there. Perhaps you are unaware that the tag means this, it does not mean that the word is right or wrong, it means that there is a disagreement over it. Since there is in fact a disagreement over it, can we agree that it is ok for me to put it back? Thank you.  Fanra 03:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they are enough official sources and others describing Carriles' various campaign of bombings (Cubana Aviacion being only one of them) as acts of terrorism. If the article lacks sources, please add "citation needed" templates. Cheers! Tazmaniacs 11:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do read the discussion above, Fanra! I think that someone wanted for several bombings is a terrorist. Or how do you call a guy who make a plane loaded with civilians explode in flight, carry out a string of bombings against touristic ressorts, etc? Please avoid weasel words, thanks. Tazmaniacs 14:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no doubt that he is a terrorist, but that still doesn't mean we should use the word. The word terrorist is an inherently pejorative word, and as such its usage always carries implied value judgments along with it. It is similar to the word evil. There is no doubt that bin Laden or Hitler qualify as evil by almost anyone's definition, but we would never describe them as such because the the word is so value laden. - SimonP 13:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this discussion really happening?  Has the world gone crazy?  Are you really making that strong a case for the madness of moral relativism?  Do you understand ethics?  You believe it is foolish to call Hitler, Mussolini, Bonaparte, Stalin, Bushs, JFK, Bin Laden, Posada Carriles, and all others involved in despotism and/or state terrorism as evil?  I think I understand why Catholics hate moral relativists.  The FBI and CIA consider him to be a terrorist.  The proof is in these declassified FBI and CIA documents.  http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm  Pistolpierre 18:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I personally consider some of the past acts of the CIA to be terrorism.  The point made by SimonP is that, if the facts make it so blindingly and undeniably obvious that he's a terrorist, then all we have to do is make sure the article presents those facts, and the reader will conclude that he's a terrorist.  The reader who concludes instead that he's been framed by lies from the CIA and/or hostile governments is free to believe that.  Governments have lied, you know.  Wikipedia's use of the word "terrorist" to describe him doesn't add anything to the reader's understanding. JamesMLane t c 16:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The Wikipedia policies are quite clear on this 'terrorist' word shouldn't describe anyone.Also it could be a BLP violation--Shrike (talk) 07:41, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing POV tag on the word terrorist 

message: Seems disputed where exactly the training of Carriles as USArmy officer took place. Some talk about the School of Americas, but seems more likely to have been trained in Fort Benning (that is the actual location of former School of the Americas, even if at the times of Carriles' training the SOA was in Panama) since it's proved he was there before invasion of pay of pigs. For this reason Ultramarine added that he doesnt appears on SOA Watch archives.
So I suggest to change the current lines: "The National Lawyers Guild states that by 1961 Posada had relocated to the United States where he was trained in sabotage and explosives at the CIA's School of the Americas for an invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs.[14] However, he is not listed by SOA Watch which has a database of all persons taking courses at the School."
into: By 1961 Posada had relocated to the United States where he was trained in sabotage and explosives by the CIA in the US army's Fort Benning for an invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs.
Most of the information can be found in the declassified documents, that you can find in the National Security archive 
--Desyman44 (talk) 19:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  CIA Training 

message: "Operative" is a silly and imprecise term, not fitting within the intelligence terminology. Was he a paid agent? An employee as a case officer or analyst? An ally? A liaison? "Operative" is more befitting a Robert Ludlum novel than a sober and serious encyclopedia. RayTalk 20:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: agree. Much better as it is now. Terrorist in this case is no weasel word, since it's confirmed by US institutions themselves as well as international organizations and international press.--Desyman44 (talk) 12:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: He was indeed a paid agent, though it's important to note that for many of his activities outside of the CIA (which, as far as we can tell, includes the Cubana Airliner bombing), his funding came from non-government sources (such as CANF members Pepe Hernandez and Jorge Mas Canosa; however, as the CANF and its members receive large subsidies from the NED, I suppose you could claim that was "government money" in origin). There are also some much-substantiated allegations that he has been a large-scale narcotrafficker, which would make him pretty well-endowed and able to fund operations independently. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 19:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

text: the entire introduction itself seems too long and overly-detailed/complex/mired-in-dates. Would recommend editing it way down while ensuring the detailed facts are available in the relevant sections of the abajoFidelarticle.joepaT 20:24, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the lead 

message: "Posada Carriles has always denied involvement in the airline bombing and the alleged plot against Castro in Panama, but has admitted to fighting for "freedom" in Cuba"  
I would recommend to changing to something more along the lines of:  "...but has characterized his involvement in Cuba as "fighting for freedom"  
that is, quotes around the entire phrase rather than "freedom" to make it more neutral, and changing "admitted" to a more neutral word (stated? said?) that doesn't imply guilt.  i think he's a genuine grade-a brainwashed CIA puppet murderer douchebag, but let's keep the language fair :) 71.214.92.33 (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "admitted to fighting for 'freedom' in Cuba..." 

message: The article ends quite abruptly.  I would like to see a section regarding what has happened to him since the trial and where he is living, and what his residency status is. Sadena (talk) 22:28, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is he now? 

message: Here's a plausible scenario regarding Luis Posada's death: if Posada suddenly dies of old age and the Miami mayor holds a funeral service for him, a relative of one the four remaining members of Cuban Five may disrupt the funeral by pushing Posada's coffin away and shoving Posada's body into the Atlantic Ocean, and then he or she may hound and beat the prison guards and let the other members of the Cuban Five out of jail so that they can either return to Cuba or go to another country far from potential Cuban exile violence. Time may tell if this scenario happens, but it shouldn't ruled out because Stalin pushed away his wife's body while attending her funeral in November 1932. As a matter of fact, the Obama administration takes no position on whether or not Posada was a terrorist or a freedom fighter. 68.4.28.33 (talk) 02:22, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding his death 

message: It seems a little strange that the second line of the lead refers to his association with the CIA (as it should) but there is no mention of the training and support he received from them in the rest of the lead. Since his arrests and trial and so forth is covered, and his training is covered in the body, it would seem logical that a couple of sentences about Fort Benning and whatnot are necessary. The single reference currently seems like a POV push, because it is not elaborated on. If there are no objections, I will attempt to fix this. Vanamonde93 (talk) 08:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  CIA in Lead 

message: POV concerns have been raised at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive224#Luis Posada Carriles. - Location (talk) 23:50, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:BLPN