Talk:International Brigades

message: Should Soviet citizens be listed as International Brigades volunteers? See discussion and arguments above RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 00:54, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: *Comment. We could hardly refer to Soviet agents as volunteers. Borsoka (talk) 04:36, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is a POV on your part. You provided no basis for any claim as to their motivation. Mediatech492 (talk) 16:44, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Could you provide sources that SS-officers were not volunteers? The same type of people: fanatic supporters of an inhuman totalitarian ideology. Do you really think that anybody in a totalitarian regime can be described as "volunteer"? Borsoka (talk) 19:22, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  A "volunteer" (in this context) is one who choses to join the military, as opposed to a conscript who is under compulsion to serve, regardless of whether or not he wants to. Do you have any evidence to show that the soviet advisors in Spain were conscripts? Mediatech492 (talk) 17:09, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I know, but it is so absurd. Can you imagine anybody volunteering in a totalitarian regime? Borsoka (talk) 13:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then it should be no problem for you to provide at least one RS to support you assertion. Mediatech492 (talk) 16:33, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we misunderstand each other. I say we should not use an expression ("volunteer") in connection with a totalitarian regime, because it is absurd. Could we write of philosemitic Nazis or kosher bacon? No, we could not. We do not need to verify it, because we know that Nazism was an antisemitic ideology and we also know that religious Jews do not eat pork. Similarly, we know that Stalinism was one of the most centralized totalitarian regimes, so no Soviet citizen was allowed to volunteer. Borsoka (talk) 02:40, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  You misunderstand, I do not. Even the most despotic regimes do have their supporters. People who will serve a tyrant of their own will, out of loyalty to the leader, fanaticism for a cause, personal ambition, greed and profit, patriotism, and so on. No government could ever stand a day if it had no one to support it. So the idea that there might be volunteers in a totalitarian country is not at all absurd. However that is besides the point. You have made an assertion that the soviet advisors were not volunteers, but still have provided no basis for it other than your own presumptions. This is an encyclopedia, not a op-ed blog. You need to provide RS support for your assertions. No exceptions. Mediatech492 (talk) 16:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  You misunderstand the core of a totalitarian regime: no volunteering. Could you provide a reliable source stating that philosemitic Nazis did not exist? Would you need a source to verify it? No, because antisemitism was the core of the Nazi ideology. Borsoka (talk) 00:04, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  This line of questioning is irrelevant to the topic of the article. You have been repeatedly asked to give a source to support you assertion and, despite being given plenty of time have refused to do so. Since you cannot provide a source to support you assertion it cannot be included in the article. This matter is closed. Mediatech492 (talk) 16:40, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Have you referred to a single reliable source during this discussion? Borsoka (talk) 01:56, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not making an assertion, you are. Do you, or do you not, have a source for your assertion. If you do, please provide it. If you do not, goodbye and have a nice day. Mediatech492 (talk) 16:46, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please read your above messages: they contain assumptions and theories, for instance, about the relationship between dictators and their subjects (and your remark clearly shows you do not know that Nazism, Stalinism and other totalitarian regimes were not simple dictatorships). Please also take into account that it was not me who suggested a name for an article. Borsoka (talk) 02:06, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC about Soviet citizens in International Brigades 

message: the lead of this article claimed that there were 15,000 IB combatants killed, with quotations pointing to Thomas (2003) and Beevor (2006). Unfortunately I do not have access to these books, so can not check. As to Thomas: GoogleBooks offers limited view of the 2013 edition, which lists fatal casualties for the French (1000), Germans (2000), Americans (900) and British (500), which leads nowhere near the total of 15,000 (maybe Thomas revised it between 2003 and 2013?). I have Beevor on my shelf in its Polish version, and have not found there the 15,000 figure alleged in the footnote (maybe they have dropped it?).
I have also compiled info from other authors on KIA, and published it in the "Casualties" section. It demonstrates that estimates range from 15,000 to 6,500, with perhaps most authors inclined to adopt 10,000.
Given the above, I have deleted the figure of 15,000 in the lead and replaced it with 10,000.
regards,
--2A02:A317:2144:1A80:E121:A418:9430:E7D7 (talk) 10:46, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualties