Talk:Communist state/archive 7

message: We would not accept an article on Catholicism based on a theory of heaven; why is its political equavalent being advanced in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia: "As communism entails the abolition of the state, a communist state is a logical impossibility." This article is about regimes ruled by Communist Parties, not about utopian fantasies. Fred Bauder 15:48, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
: I am afraid you are mistaken. Heaven is an idea, and therefore represented in wikipedia. This article is about regimes ruled by "so-called" communist states yes, but due to the ETMYLOGY of the word, it is hardly a utopian fantasy, much less direct democracy being one. It is a logical impossibility - it is an oxymoronic statement. The term "communist state" only persists because it was coined during the 20th century (just like the word "gay" for being homosexual was) for totalitarian planned economies. In truth, being gay has no relevance to being homosexual, (well not until some people in the 1960's hijacked the word), and neither has communism to totalitarian governments. Communism = ideology of communes, communes do not exist in totalitarian states. -- Natalinasmpf 18:55, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: In what world?

message: Especially in the lead section:"A Communist state is a state governed by a single political party which declares its allegiance to the principles of Marxism-Leninism. The term Communist state originated from the fact that most of the states in question were or are run by parties that called themselves "Communist Party of [country]." Thus, they became known as Communist Party-run states, or simply Communist states. However most of these states called themselves socialist, since in Marxist political theory, socialism is the intermediate stage in reaching communism, which is a condition with no state, so that communist state is considered an oxymoron."
Is not said,where the term is used and by whom, where originated from, etc. This makes it look like "we, who call them communist states, are right" and "they, who call themselves socialist states (even considering a communist state an oxymoron term) are not right". So, it's one POV which by far prevails another. And therefore the article seems not to fit NPOV criteria. Cmapm 01:47, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two - three definitions of socialism.  There is broad socialism, that is all ideologies that are basically anti-capitalist and equalitarian.  There is socialism meaning a (broad) socialist state (narrow socialism) and there is Marxist socialism which generally means the second.  Thus all "communist states" are really socialist (!) (narrow).  Communism similarly has three meanings, a socialist (broad) society with decisions made at a community level, characterised by minimal hierarchy, the end result of Marxist theory (not really fully explained) (both these first two do not have a nation/state) and what are commonly called communist states. --harrismw 01:34, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have always found this article an attempt to hide critique that should be in the Communism article. Any attempt to make historical critique of Communism even weaker will result in moving back the historical examples in more detail to Communism. Ultramarine 19:18, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Article is not a NPOV

message: There needs to be infomation about Chile.  
There needs to be more infomation that is less biased.  
"As noted in the introduction, a "Communist state" is a state where a Communist Party holds power within the context of a single-party system of government. Thus, a country ruled by a Communist Party (or some other communist group) is not automatically a "Communist state"."  
And bias needs to be removed.  
It needs to be pointed out that the various countries have vastly differing economies and systems of government.  (Compare China to Cuba.)
Just needs to be cleaned up.  --harrismw 08:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions needed. 

message: Is there still an NPOV dispute here? If I don't hear anything within 24 hours I'm removing the tag. AndyL 9 July 2005 02:51 (UTC)
Actually i think there is extraordinary bias throuought the article 
The fact that these states are truely "one party" is in dispute (some like the DPRK and China are in fact multi-party, some like Cuba have no legal role for the Communist Party and candidates run without party nomination)
The fact that these states are "totaliatarian" and "authoritarian" is obviously in dispute and naturally none of them would characterize themselves as suchNoJoyInMudville 17:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV?

message: i haven't made any large-scale deletion other than the last two paras i thought had already been discussed earlier. if you could explain what "large-scale deletions" it is you're objecting to i'd appreciate it. J. Parker Stone 03:58, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The deleted paragraphs were bad enough bad you have made numerous POV changes in every paragraph, like excluding that the Soviet Union become a net importer of cereals. Ultramarine 04:05, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ultramarine, every country is a net importer of something. There is a great deal of room for legitimate disagreement on all of the removals to which you are objecting. This article is not a place to bring up every problem in every single party state ruled by a Communist Party. 172 06:12, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

text: the problem with the criticism section is that there's too much "critics say this, advocates say that" that can be cut down on. there are certain things that have happened in Communist states (improvements in education/healthcare as well as political repression and economic problems) that we can state as facts and then add certain people's interpretation of those facts -- we don't need to say "critics point out" every single sentence. J. Parker Stone 06:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, I'm wondering if someone has slipped me some psychedelic substances tonight, but I am in complete agreement with Trey Stone here. The "critics say this, advocates say that" has been annoying stylistic feature of this article since its troubled inception more than two years ago... Ultramarine, the bulk of Trey Stone's changes were not POV-related one way or another. Most consisted of improvements in the writing. I am going to revert back to Trey Stone's version for now pending further discussion. 172 06:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is of course exactly the place to point out the failings of a system that murdered close to 100 million people in 70 years. No censorship or revisionism. Ultramarine 13:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ultramarine, my edits are not POV-related -- in fact they did not change the previous version at all, aside from "they were a net importer of cereal" and the last two paras (how many times do we need to be reminded that Trotskyists don't think historical Communism is "real" communism?) what i am trying to do is streamline this article, particularly the criticisms section, which is extremely bloated. we can include all the important critiques of communism in there without making it long-winded. J. Parker Stone 22:11, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As anyone can see , you made numerous POV changes. Another deletion was this argument "Critics argue that past evils in an old regime cannot be used to justify new ones; otherwise supporters of Hitler could justify his deeds by pointing to past human rights crimes by the German Empire in Africa." Or changing somewhat disputed to disputed for the numbers killed. Ultramarine 22:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: i changed a rather obscure argument into a more common one (ie, that Stalinist, Maoist, etc. suffering was more widespread than any previous regime.) as for "somewhat disputed," that was related to the length of the article and the wordiness of several sentences, though i suppose we could add it back in. but i reiterate that i am quite an anti-Communist and as such have no motives for POV changes to enhance Communist states' images. J. Parker Stone 22:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Then do not remove the critics arguments. Ultramarine 23:05, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

text: ...dude, forget it, i'm done here for now. hopefully more people can join this discussion. J. Parker Stone 00:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

text: He deleted numerous arguments. Ultramarine 19:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, he cleaned up the writing with a number of factual statements stated as arguments that should not have been. As native English speakers, please give us the benefit of the doubt and point out on the talk page the relevant "arguments" he removed. 172 22:33, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Have already pointed them out here. Do not again make a large scale deletion of arguments and facts you do not like. If you do not like the English, correct it, do not censor. Ultramarine 00:01, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You have not pointed anything, and Trey Stone's edits were a copyediting. Also, do not accuse editors of censorship, a personal attack that will get you sent to arbitration. 172 00:36, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As anyone can see above, I have pointed out several deletions of arguments. Ultramarine 00:40, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you have just made accusations against other editors. 172 00:57, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a comparision between edits:  Ultramarine 01:00, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am aware of the differences between the two versions. Note Trey Stone's original explanation. 172 01:03, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Explanations? I see no explanation for example for removing the last two paragraphs. And why are you removing new arguments? And why is the end of the article incomprehensible with numerous spelling errors in your version?  Ultramarine 01:08, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See Trey Stone's original explanation: ::the problem with the criticism section is that there's too much "critics say this, advocates say that" that can be cut down on. there are certain things that have happened in Communist states (improvements in education/healthcare as well as political repression and economic problems) that we can state as facts and then add certain people's interpretation of those facts -- we don't need to say "critics point out" every single sentence. J. Parker Stone 06:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you not answering my questions? Why are you insisting on a version with numerous spelling errors? And Trey Stone argument may be used for removing "critics say", not for large scale deletion of the arguments of the critics. Ultramarine 01:22, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Those "arguments" were unsourced gibberish. 172 01:24, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There are numerous references. Are you denying that the criticized historical events took place? Why are you doing large scale deletion of critical arguments and insisting on a poorly spelled article? Ultramarine 01:27, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What events? This article is incoherent mess by and large. Trey Stone's copyedit helps, but it needs a thorough rewrite, and I am working on it. 172 01:39, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ultramarine

message: It is customary to refer to certain governments as 'regimes'. Wiktionary says this term is often used as a prejorative. And thus has no place in a dictionary (which must remain neutral). Literally, it's neutral, but in practise that's not the case. Ever heard of a democratic regime? Or the regime of Chirac? An alternative would be 'government', but here 'state' usually makes more sense (that is after all the title of the article). In other cases 'rule' makes more sense, as in 'the regime of Stalin', but a problem here is that 'rule' in this sense has no plural (I believe). And 'administration' is typical for the US. Does anyone know of a better alternative?
DirkvdM 15:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Regime is neutral; Wiktionary is wrong. Look up the specific and value-neutral meaning of the term in a political science textbook or a sourcebook on politics like the Oxford Dictionary. If you don't have access to these tools, I'll elaborate. 172 | Talk 16:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The word 'regime' isn't neutral 

message: The following POV (vulgar and erroneous) removed:
:But that name refers to Communism, meaning the ultimate goal of the party to one day reach a utopian phase in which everyone is equal by their own volition. In such a 'state' no form of government is needed, so in this sense the term Communist state is a contradiction in terms.
The first half is a very primitive definition of communism. The second half is false and irrelevant, since our definition is without contradiction, and word games don't matter. Language knows much more strange alive and well "contradictions of terms". mikka (t) 15:20, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There have been edit wars over this. I put it backin a milder form, saying not that it is a contradiction, but that in a certain sense it is a contradiction. Also, I kept it short, resulting in a primitive definition. Of Communism, mind you, not Marxism. DirkvdM 19:07, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I am well aware of edit wars over this. They have eventually led to a reasonable tradeoff. Brevity is not a justification of incorrectness. "In certain sense" is a weasel word and has no place in the intro. I you wish, you may dwell upon the "contradiction in terms"  in the relevant section, "definition of the communist state."  mikka (t) 00:39, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "contradiction in terms

message: Removed as irrelevant and speculation:
:For example, the region of Reiderland in the Netherlands received the nickname Little Moscow because the Dutch Communist Party (CPN) did have a majority from World War II to 1989 (when the party merged with other parties into GroenLinks). The community of Finsterwolde even usually had an 80-90% majority and in 1982 the community of Beerta had a communist mayor (appointed by the Crown, though). But these don't qualify as Communist states either, even if the Communist Party had received 100% of the votes, because in a democracy there is always the possibility that that does not happen and in a Communist state the Communist Party reserves absolute rule by default.
The first part is irrelevant, since it does not speak about a state. The second part is false, since it is a guesswork. In practice it was always so that if an inherently non-democratic seizes power by democratic means, the democracy is immediately kicked out. The best known example is Nazi Germany, the recent one is Belarus. And many former "communist states" were "democratically elected as well". mikka (t) 15:28, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: True, it's not about a state. That should have been stated. It's a really small region, but some of the other examples that were given are also about regions, not states. The point of including this was twofold. One is to give an example of a place where a Communist Party had a vast majority for a very long time in a democracy (more so than in the other examples). Surely this is of interrest to someone who is reading about this subject. More detail could then be given in the Reiderland article. The other is to illustrate that (if it were a state) this still does not constitute a Communist State. " ... the Communist Party reserves absolute rule by default." Surely, that last sentence is very relevant. There are three stages in the reasoning: 1) getting seats in government 2) getting into the coalition 3) having a majority, ruling out the necessity of a coalition. That last bit was missing. Even if it had never happened anywhere, the possibility would still merit mentioning. The fact that it actually happened (and to no small extent) only 'spices it up'. I've put it back in a slightly rewritten form. What do you call guesswork? DirkvdM 19:07, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  100% communist votes 

message: Rm false overgeneralization and restored original text:
:Marx predicted that the revolution would come from the oppressed laborers fighting capitalism, but in reality it was usually peasants (especially in China) led by intellectuals. The intellectuals may have followed Marx's ideology, but, for example, in Russia the population was simply revolting against the poverty brought about by the Tsars, as they had already been doing for decades.
:"usually peasants" is false. It was not "especially in china", but "only in china and some other states". 
:"Simply revolting" is a prerequisite of any successful revolution, as opposed to a "palace coup", so the word "simply" is silly. mikka (t) 15:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They simply happen to be the most recent ones. mikka (t) 00:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

text: "No ownership" is not the same as "collective ownership" by any legal definition. The "effectively" is your interpretation here, as well as one of the roots of problems in former communist states, but this is a long story. mikka (t) 00:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

text: This is because you probably don't know well the topic you are writing on, combined with my bad command of English. I meant "working people's will", if you know what I mean. Also, your reverting without addressing criticism is inadmissible. mikka (t) 00:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  peasants 

message: Under 'Criticism and advocacy' the pharmaceutical industry in Cuba is mentioned. Cuba is known for its good healthcare, but a lack of medicines. So 'pharmaceutical industry' doesn't seem like the right word. 'Pharmacology' may apply, but not 'industry', it seems to me. DirkvdM 19:04, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  pharmaceutical industry in Cuba? 

message: The section on "the special case of China" is nonsense. There is no debate on remains committed to Marxism-Leninism is subject to debate, but a "Communist state" is merely a standard political science definition for a Communist Party-run regime, and of course China is governed by the Communist Party. The CPC's committees and its organization departments at each level use their nomenklatura authority to control the appointment and dismissals of key officials throughout the government ministries, agencies, legislative organs, and state-owned industries at their own level and one level below. It remains a basic fact that much of the economy is largely in the hands of the state bureaucracies at various levels or state-owned enterprises. Cadres of the party-state, not private entrepreneurs, are still the dominant economic players. The military is commanded by the CPC Central Military Commission, which is accountable to the Politburo's Standing Committee. Law enforcement remains under the coordinated control of the party, using its nomenklatura authority. The apex of the Chinese political system is the Politburo Central Committee and its presiding Standing Committee, which are essentially not accountable to any state agency or to any judicial restraints. I will make the necessary changes to clarify the fact that there is no ambiguity as to whether or not China is ruled by the CPC. 172 01:41, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If corruption and lobbyism controls law enforcement and political parties then perhaps they should be called neoliberal instead, which can be compared with United States. The interesting thing is not who controls something but what controls them. Money control us all. --TobiasBengtsson 15:45, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are or are not parallels between a Communist state and other kinds of political movements is irrelevant for the previous remark by 172.--Ebralph 15:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The special case of China 

message: This is only one name, "Communist state" in English? no "socialist state"? i am doing interwikis. because both of those calling exist in Chinese, got a little confused. --User:Yacht (talk) 13:11, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
:Socialism in the West is ordinarily used to refer to social democracy although it is also used by totalitarian Marxists.
The person above has no clue what he/she is talking about. -- WGee 17:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One shouldn't forget the Leninists used the words communism/socialism as synonyms, until in 1920s the revisinists decided to call themselves only socialists; thus distinction was made.--Constanz - Talk 08:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming