Talk:Persecution of Baháʼís

message: For this page everything needs sources and remember that information found only on websites or blogs  explicitly do not meet wikipedia policies & guidelines for reliable sources. The links to personal websites are not an acceptable sources — to wit: "Personal websites and blogs may never be used as secondary sources". Reliable Source: Personal websites as secondary sources -- Jeff3000 14:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: There have been many developments in the situation in Eqypt - here's some info I have gleaned. Perhaps it could be the basis of an extension...
There had been a scheduled hearing in Sept for the Supreme Court but it was postponed for a report reviewing the facts of the case to be made for consideration. The Court is scheduled to reconvene on the matter Nov 20th.
That report was released in 12 October.
It was entirely against the Bahá'ís as far as I can find...
A blog has covered the topic in depth.Baha'i Faith in Egypt but here's a summary:
 it concluded that since the Baha'i Faith is not recognized in Egypt as a "divine religion," therefore its followers in that land have no rights whatsoever and that they simply do not exist! Consequently, they concluded that Egypt's Constitutional guarantees of freedom of belief and religion do not apply to the Baha'is. That Egypt is not bound to its commitment as a cosignatory to the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights, and that the Baha'is, in Egypt, should not be under its protection--since, as far as they are concerned, Egypt should have no obligations towards them! That the Baha'i are apostates (whether or not they descended from an Islamic background). That they are a threat to the "general [public] order" of the State, and that all their marriages are null and void.... That "methods must be defined that would insure that Baha'is are identified, confronted and singled out so that they could be watched carefully, isolated and monitored in order to protect the rest of the population as well as Islam from their danger, influence and their teachings." The report also calls for the original plaintiffs (the Baha'i family that won the case) to be charged for all court costs!
- note the language reminiscent of the Iranian secret plan to track Bahá'ís (but also understand that Egypt is a Sunni-Moslem country while Iran is a Shi'a-Moslem one and they have little tolerance even for eachother.)
Oct 19th President Mubarak made a speech about religious diverisity on the anniversary of the first night of the Revelation of God to Muhammad mentioned here with an open-ended call for core values of Islam for tolerance but did not mention any specifics:"Isn't it the time for a new religious discourse, that teaches people the correct things in their religion ... and promotes the values of tolerance against those of extremism and radicalism?"
Since then leading religious figures have continued to speak out against and for the Bahá'ís. Here's a report of an interview with a tolerant Muslim but also mentioning his extremist older brother.--Smkolins 18:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added the new info based on some press releases from third-party sources. -- Jeff3000 16:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egyptian hearings 

message: There's a new letter. Dated August 16th, another secret letter was sent and leaked by November. It's far more detailed about what the Iranian government is to do with the "the perverse sect of Bahaism" - a copy of the translated cover letter can be read here.
This letter and it's survey asks provincial deputies of the Department of Politics and Security in Offices of the Governors’ General to order “relevant offices to cautiously and sensitively monitor and supervise” all Baha'i social activities about the circumstances and activities of local Baha'is, including their “financial status,” “social interactions,” and “association with foreign assemblies,” and asks for information on the ‘socio-political activities’ of Baha'is – even though it is well known to authorities that Baha'is are entirely non-political in their activities in every country, inasmuch as the Baha'i sacred writings stress the importance of non-involvement in partisan politics, as well as non-violence. The news is covered by the Baha'i UN representatives to the UN  (who are one of many NGOs represented there.)--Smkolins 11:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should add a couple sentences to the section on "Monitoring of Activities." -- Jeff3000 16:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letter Aug 16, 2006 

message: While Iran certain has some of the major documentation of persecution of Baha'is, perhaps that could be made into a different article and general themes and brief reviews kept here - kind of like what happened with Egypt and the Egyptian identification card controversy. But some review of online references finds info from several other countries that could be small sections of their own.--Smkolins 18:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think breakouts with not be much use because the vast vast majority of persecution is/was in Iran, and thus breaking out such an article will make this one a stub.  Until there is other large persecution (I hope not) in other countries, I think this article should be the place for it to be documented.  I'm currently working on expanding some of the documented persecution during the Pahlavi regime. -- Jeff3000 18:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps its not right to break out the Iran section, but I think we can document more than just Egypt - here's a decade of issues AZERBAIJAN: Why are religious communities in Nakhichevan "crushed"? By Felix Corley, Forum 18 News Service, published 10 December 2004, and LAOS: The Disturbing Prospect for Religious Freedom By Magda Hornemann, Forum 18 News Service, published 15 June 2004, and TURKMENISTAN: Orthodox to be main victims of clampdown? By Igor Rotar, Forum 18 News Service, published 17 March 2003 and ROMANIA: Concerns about draft religion law By Felix Corley, Forum 18 News Service, published 6 October 2005 and more to come I'm sure. --Smkolins 19:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And that law passed in Romania ROMANIA: Controversial Law promulgated; legal challenges planned By Felix Corley, Forum 18 News Service, published 3 January 2007--Smkolins 19:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  rework? 

message: *20/20 episode from 1983
*Heretics in Islam, Monday, Jun. 06, 1955 --Smkolins 21:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  more refs? 

message: There are a lot of documented cases of persecution within the last few months, and these have been reported in a series of articles on Baha'i News Service. The pace and severity of persecution seems to be increasing, and I think it would justify a new sub-section under current persecution in Iran.
Also, there are a great many photos that should be in the public domain illustrating persecution against Baha'is. These include the destruction of the National Center in the 1950s, photos of missing and murdered Baha'is, photos of demolished holy sites and cemeteries, photos of anti-Baha'i grafitti, etc.
--Parsa 03:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but if it's used from the Baha'i News service then some people will consider it biased. It's better to use references from third-party observers and human rights groups. Jeff3000 has done well at sourcing this page with verifiable sources. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 08:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acceleration of Iranian persecution 

message: There are increasing instances of noting the situation Baha'is are in as documented in here and then framing this as a justification of characterization of Islam as inherently violent or of calling for regime change. I believe this conclusion is not supported by Baha'i stances but I'm not sure of any citable quotes. But I'd suggest this be an theme worth exploring. Is this page the place for it? I know I could review the instance of the Moroccan situation and the efforts of diplomacy rather than calling for regime change or denigrating Islam....--Smkolins (talk) 00:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe such an argument is for wikipedia to make, as it is a synthesis of published material.  A good essay for a course, but not for Wikipedia.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 00:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that this page is specifically the place for discussing a critical view of Islam or the policies of modern Muslim countries. End of neutral point. Non neutral point, as a Baha'i I think that attributing the actions of some proclaimed Muslims to be the reality of Islam is a broad and prejudicial generalization, and that most Muslims would probably find the accusation to be quite insulting. Peter Deer (talk) 17:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think Smkolins was saying that Bahai's were making such arguments, indeed it appears he specifically said that that conclusion is not supported by the Baha'i stance. I think he was actually referring to the inclusion of the Baha'i persecution in the rhetoric of those who are already making such arguments. Jeff3000 was saying that collecting statements from some of these regime change pushers would not be as good as siting a paper of someone who has already done so. -LambaJan (talk) 20:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  arguments for denigrating Islam as violent and possible regime change 

message: This page needs some update on the current situation. I will see if I get time soon... Help is welcome. Wiki-uk (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Update needed on current situation

message: I wanted to remind everyone of this. Unless an action, or view, or law (etc.) is specifically labeled as "persecution" (by a reliable source), it should not be in this article. This article is about persecution of Bahai's, not unfair acts against them, or anything that is not persecution. 
To be "persecution" it must be called "persecution" by a reliable source (preferably multiple ones).
This is an accordance with consensus on Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research/Archive_34#Persecution. Thanks.Bless sins (talk) 14:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Persecution" 

message: A number of comments have been made in recent days that might be useful additions - here's urls to pursue:
*The apology of academics that was out just before the trial was announced <http://www.iranian.com/main/2009/feb/we-are-ashamed> and has gone on to gather over 300 signatures from non-Baha'i Iranians. There is now a website collecting them. I've already compared some of the names against articles in wikipedia and made small additions.
*Of course there is the Bill in the US House of Representatives: <http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:h.res.00175:>
*The US State Department has spoken out against an upcoming court case: <http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2009/02/117332.htm>
*British Foreign Office Minister Bill Rammell expressed concern: <http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/newsroom/latest-news/?view=PressS&id=13644191>
*Amnesty International comments at <http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE13/013/2009/en/67d5b8fe-f937-11dd-92e7-c59f81373cf2/mde130132009en.html>
*Comment from the EU <http://www.consilium.europa.eu/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressData/en/cfsp/106134.pdf>
Smkolins (talk) 20:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: OK - I think that catches up all these entries and similar. There might be more characterization of the kinds of remarks each actually asked for but the length would get far longer unless regrouped into themed sections. For now at least a chronology was simpler to accomplish. 'Course there will be followup on this quickly evolving series of events. There are rumors the trial was delayed 2 weeks which I've not seen officially anywhere. At some point the US Committee should come back; I saw Kirk was out of town for the week. Smkolins (talk) 13:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Found the government reference - http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3691755&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=40&Ses=2 Smkolins (talk) 19:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  February actions 

message: ANNUAL REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS, INC.  FOR THE YEAR 2007 - "Baha’i students in Iran were denied access to their National Entrance Examination scores in 2007.  The test results were made available electronically on July 31. When around 800 students of the Baha’i faith logged on to the website, they received an error message informing them that their files were “incomplete.”  Several students reported that the National Education Measurement and Evaluation Organization did not respond to phone calls and letters asking why their test results were inaccessible.  When two students inquired in person to the Organization's office in Tehran, one official stated that he had “received orders from above not to score the tests of Baha’i students,” while another official suggested that a student would receive his test scores only if the student’s family renounced their faith.  We called for the complete publication of all test scores without discrimination." Smkolins (talk) 03:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Union of Concerned Scientists with particular anecdote from 2007! 

message: 2007 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices > Near East and North Africa - Iraq - "After the MOI cancelled in April its regulation prohibiting issuance of a national identity card to those claiming the Baha'i Faith, four Baha'is were issued identity cards in May. Without this official citizenship card, the approximately 1,000 Baha'is experienced difficulty registering their children in school, receiving passports to travel out of the country, and proving their citizenship. Despite the cancellation, Baha'is whose identity records were changed to "Muslim" after Regulation 358 was instituted in 1975 still could not change their identity cards to indicate their faith.
Constitutional provisions on religious freedoms countermand the Revolutionary Command Council Resolution 201 of 2001, which mandated the death penalty for adherents of the Salafist branch of Islam (Wahhabism) and Law No. 105 of 1970, which prohibits the Baha'i Faith. There was selective enforcement against Baha'is, but no been formal repeal." Smkolins (talk) 04:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  a ref on situation in Iraq 

message: #U.S. panel demands release of Baha'is facing trial in Iran (mentions Roxana Saberi who wrote a letter asking for the action.)
#INTERVIEWS: Roxana Saberi On Her Imprisonment In Iran on NPR
#Iran: Seven members of Baha'i religious minority face possible death sentences
# It is not just democracy that is illegal in Iran; By Cherie Blair, a barrister at Matrix Chambers (THE TIMES, 09/07/09) Smkolins (talk) 16:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  more refs on developments in July 

message: I think so... Smkolins (talk) 13:43, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  should the Arrest of Bahá'í leaders section be spun off into it's own article with brief summary here? 

message: I'll see if there is more news or a general history but see "They can drink tea – that's not forbidden" wherein registered groups and meetings were broken up, and parents who had signed permission for their children to attend were fined. Here's another Uzbek cable operators forced to air propaganda Smkolins (talk) 13:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: UZBEKISTAN: Two more foreigners deported for religious activity Smkolins (talk) 19:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Brunei? International Religious Freedom Report 2007. Apparently there are some 30-40 Baha'is there and "Despite constitutional provisions … the Government restricted the practice of non-Muslim religions by prohibiting proselytizing of all faiths other than the Shafi'i sect of Islam. … It has banned several other religious groups that it considers deviant, including … the Baha'i Faith." Smkolins (talk) 14:27, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  might need an entry on [[Uzbekistan]] 

message: I know it's been discussed (unsuccessfully) before - see above - but I'd like to suggest again that this article is split up. I suggest that Persecution of Bahá'ís in Iran had had enough coverage in independent reliable sources to be valid as an article in itself, and it would make the length of this article more manageable and give it a more global perspective. It would also link in well with the Bahá'í Faith in Iran article. AndrewRT(Talk) 23:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, this page is already 90% about the actions in Iran, and everything else is a stub.  If the sections for the other countries were large by themselves, then a discussion could be in separating the content, but at this point, the Persecution of Baha'is virtually means the Persecution of Baha'is in Iran.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 04:16, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate article 

message: Regarding this material added by Minissa: Minissa, if you could provide a link to the source I will show you how to put it into a proper citation.  I only reverted because I didn't want to leave it cited to the old source and because you signed in the article, which is messy.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:05, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd also be happier if the sourcing were stronger. I see CNN covered it and that is good but it would be better if one of the watchdog agencies concerned about events in Iran - and there are many - would wish to make a statement about the increasing nature of the persecution of late. There is certainly a sea of reports about it.--Smkolins (talk) 04:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help with sourcing new information 

message: --Smkolins (talk) 02:31, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  another reference of the echo of Tahirih in modern Iran 

message: "159 reports were received involving the arrest of 531 citizens, 12 incidents of violence, 66 incidence of home searches, 1 incident of closure of a religious prayer site, 39 incidents of prevention of economic and commercial activity of religious minority, 88 incidents of summons to security and legal entities and 9 incidents of suspension from studies. 79 religious minorities were sentenced to a total of 3620 months in prison, 200 months probation, 75 lashings and 41,030,000,000 rials in fines. In this area, 49% of the cases involved Baha’i minorities, 16% Christian and Dervish and 14% Sunni minority. Arrests of religious minorities increased by 36% in relation to last year." - Human rights activists in Iran publish disturbing annual report summarizing human rights violations in 2013, irandailybrief.com,  23 January 2014
(I'm guessing this could be filed as a news article)
--Smkolins (talk) 17:20, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  annual survey cite 

message: --Smkolins (talk) 18:36, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  another recent ref 

message: The foundation of the article already exists within the article, Persecution of Bahá'ís. Reading through the article – Political accusations against the Baha'i Faith – it's severely slanted, asserts several points as "true" or "false", claims "historical accuracy" based upon claims, and makes argument cases within the article, itself. KnowledgeBattle | TalkPage | GodlessInfidel ┌┬╫┴┼╤╪╬╜ 14:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: opposed - the basic difference being that this one is a review of persecution more broadly and one focuses on the case of more particular efforts visible in only one place on earth. The case in Iran is unique - no other government speaks so about the Baha'is. Egypt began to approach the same level of abuse and persecution but then the government and overall situation there changed and no sources have adequately reviewed how things have changed to speak to what's going on. But of Iran the situation is quite clear and unparalleled in any other present society. Historically perhaps the case in the Soviet period would be worth documenting even to the point of mass graves but it is at least one change in government and society removed from the present case in addition to being many decades back and largely changed. The cases for the points under consideration in Iran rise even to the point that diaspora Iranians, as well as perhaps a single in-country non-Baha'i individual of note, have spoken out about it. This is true of no other country. --Smkolins (talk) 16:08, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've addressed this at Talk:Political accusations against the Baha'i Faith#more possible sources. Please redirect discussion there. KnowledgeBattle | TalkPage | GodlessInfidel ┌┬╫┴┼╤╪╬╜ 20:52, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've addressed your considerations in multiple places. I didn't want this just sitting here unspoken to.--Smkolins (talk) 22:40, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Political accusations against the Baha'i Faith]] 

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I have just modified 10 external links on Persecution of Bahá'ís. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070611140854/http://www.iranhrdc.org/english/pdfs/Reports/bahai_report.pdf to http://www.iranhrdc.org/english/pdfs/Reports/bahai_report.pdf
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This sentence in the lead paragraph needs to be more specific.
"Thus, Baháʼís are seen as apostates from Islam, and, according to some Islamists, must choose between repentance and death."
Which Islamists? Who is Roy Mottahedeh? What is "One World Publication"?
The sentence seems to be exaggerated and misguiding and the source is a Baha'i source. Please provide a better neutral secondary source.
I am removing the sentence, you are free to add it again with new wordings and better sources.Serv181920 (talk) 17:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Be bold. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:14, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which Islamists?