Talk:Photography and the law

message: Erm yes - okay. Well, I'm not especially wedded to this article (basically I created it to find a place for some content which didn't belong on another page) but I also feel that there is not reason eplictely why laws relating to public photography are any more or less deserving of an article about alcohol laws, etc. --Neo (talk) 21:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have gone ahead and removed the speedy deletion request.  --TeaDrinker (talk) 22:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defending this article 

message: Would this article be an appropriate place to address copyright issues -- that is, the ownership of photographs? I'm thinking of the kinds of topic represented by the following posts from BoingBoing:
Condo association vs photographers; 
No cameras, copyright-protected area.  Wbakker2 (talk) 20:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Potentially - its still a very new article so there will be some natural evolution of the direction it takes. I'd like to avoid going into issues relating to completed works as I'm sure that those are covered elsewhere, but in terms of laws relating to the taking of photographs then that's definitely something I personally would be interested in reading about here. --Neo (talk) 23:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a NYPD document which has instructions of a common sense nature about photography in New York city, recognizing that the many tourists are unlikely to be terrorists and should not be harassed. --DThomsen8 (talk) 12:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright issues 

message: 1. UK copyright - criticism of the law
2. UK copyright - odd implications of the law
3. UK copyright - originality requirement for photographs - implications regarding photography generally, as well as photographic reproductions of artistic works - do you get a copyright in a photgraph of a painting?
4. US section - fix this up. 
I can do 1-3. I am not competent to do 4. Arpitt (talk) 14:01, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good list. I would add: there's also a problem with referring to "UK law". There is technically no such thing - the law of England and Wales is one thing; the law of Scotland another and the law of Northern Ireland again another. Copyright law will be similar (if not identical) but tort law (and in particular privacy) potentially very different. LeContexte (talk) 20:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:   To do 

message: That article seems to logically be a subset of this article, and it has little material. I think a merger is best.
Also, there should be more coverage of this UK law: Counter-Terrorism Act 2008#Photographs of police officers in public places, and its use and abuse by the police and community support officers. Fences and windows (talk) 22:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Has this been done? If so, maybe the tag on the article can be removed. --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:04, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge of [[Legality of recording by civilians]]

message: There should only be a summary of the issue on the page Street photography; most of the material should be worked into this article. Fences and windows (talk) 22:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Has this been done? If so, maybe the tag on the article can be removed. --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:05, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge of [[Street photography#Invasion of privacy in the United States]]

message: As I've just noted elsewhere, #United Kingdom is, to be frank (having just read the sources that I used to expand Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. ), piss-poor, since it's really Wikipedia editors' firsthand interpretation of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act (cited as the source in most cases) rather than the rather different analysis of U.K. case and statute law that is available in actual sources.  This is a complex and subtle subject, and from what I've read so far, the text here is an inaccurate summary of the law.  Uncle G (talk) 07:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: This was suggested for a merge here from Street photography.  I'm cleaning out the article of original research and how-tos, and so here's the suggested text:
I couldn't figure out a good way to work this in, so here it is.  Do as you need with it.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  From [[Street photography]] 

message: I think the current text is misleading by claiming a blanket copyright of 70 years after the death of the photographer. The transitional provisions and savings of the 1988 Act states:
:"Duration of copyright in existing works
:12.—
::(1) The following provisions have effect with respect to the duration of copyright in existingworks.
::The question which provision applies to a work shall be determined by reference to the facts immediately before commencement; and expressions used in this paragraph which were defined for the purposes of the 1956 Act have the same meaning as in that Act.
::(2) Copyright in the following descriptions of work continues to subsist until the date on which it would have expired under the 1956 Act—
:::...
:::(c) published photographs and photographs taken before 1st June 1957;"
The terms of the 1956 Act are 50 years after the end of the year of publication, or 50 years after the end of the year of death of the photographer when unpublished. Therefore any published photograph that existed on the date the 1988 Act became law - i.e. 1 August 1989 - is copyrighted for 50 years after the end of the year of publication, while any unpublished photograph taken before 1 June 1957 is copyrighted for 50 years after the end of the year of the photographer's death. It is only unpublished photographs taken from 1 June 1957 onwards that are covered by 70 years after the end of the year of the photographer's death.
In practical terms this means that any photograph published on or before 31 December 1959 is now in the public domain (1960 photographs will be protected until the end of this year, and so on), as is the work of any photographer who died before 1 June 1957 (the unpublished work of anyone dying between 1 June & 31 December 1957 will be protected until 31 December 2027, and so on). Nick Cooper (talk) 10:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK copyright 

message: Looks like thre right thing to do. 9carney (talk) 14:44, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree.  This has more to do with copyright then photography and Freedom of Panorama is a term extensively used in the copyright area.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 19:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

text: I'm removing the merge tag and marking this no consensus. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 16:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge "Panoramafreiheit" article 

message: The taking of photographs of illegal activity - such as people doing graffiti - could be argued to be encouraging that activity and so is illegal. Or at least the photographer can get an ASBO for it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.66.69 (talk) 17:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  ASBOs 

message: The section "United States", subsection "Public property", contains several unsourced statements about what is illegal where, some of which seem dubious to me.  One that I know is wrong is "Photography and videography are also prohibited in the U.S. Capitol", see  and  which imply that photography is in fact allowed in the U.S. Capitol, except in the Senate/House chambers and the "Exhibition Hall".  So that statement needs to be more specific. 71.231.76.242 (talk) 08:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious info, needs sourcing 

message: I’ve added the citation of Title 14, § 4316 of the California Code of Regulations with some misgivings, because the law, despite its ostensible unambiguity, does not at all reflect its intent (which was to regulate large-scale, potentially disruptive activities; it is not clear that the intent was to even include still photography). Nonetheless, the law reads as it reads, most DPR staff tend to so interpret it (and few have ever seen the rulemaking history), so it probably accurately describes policy. We could include some citations of the rulemaking file (without getting too creative with interpretation), but this probably would get us into WP:OR.
The situation isn’t as unusual as it may seem; the regulations in Palo Alto, California are similarly at odds with intent stated at the commission meeting at which the regulations were adopted. I suspect investigation would find similar histories elsewhere (i.e., the authors of laws assumed that “commercial” was equivalent to “large-scale and disruptive”), but I have neither the time nor the interest in doing so, and even if I did, I’m not sure what we could do with the information. And in any event, a challenge to a law that did not reflect its intent would undoubtedly require the assistance of a judge.
Public Law 106-206, enacted in May, 2000, bars the Secretary of the Interior from requiring permits for still photography that doesn’t involve models or props, but does not mention commercial advertising, so the interpretations of “model” and “prop” remain to be seen. A new rule was proposed in 2007, but it was not issued; the NPS indicate that they still plan to issue such a rule, but don’t have a time frame. A glance at the NPS web site indicates they seem to favor the wording of Pub. L. 106-206, but as nearly as I can tell, 36 CFR 5.5(b) remains the controlling law. I don’t see what we can do except cite the authoritative sources and let the reader make the interpretation. JeffConrad (talk) 04:38, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  California State Parks/US National Parks 

message: The article says "As such, scanning old family photographs to a digital file for personal use is prima facie an infringement of copyright."
I think this depends on the country. For example, in The Netherlands this wouldn't be an infringement of copyright, because you can make one copy of works of art (e.g. music, movies, photographs) for personal use. Of course, if you would distribute the copied photo, this would be a different case. Thus the country should be mentioned in the above statement. --( The previous unsigned comment was added by the user Van der Hoorn )
The above line is already in the 'United Kingdom' section. --Neil (talk) 16:47, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Digitalizing copyrighted photos 

message: It’s good to have some information about Canada, but I think we need more reliable source, preferably citing decisional or statutory law, for the statement that Canadian police have no authority to prohibit photography in public places or to delete photos taken in public places. I don’t question the statement’s accuracy—I simply think we should have a more authoritative source than the statement of a police spokesman—that doesn’t cite any authority. I suspect such a source is readily available, but I’m not familiar with Canadian law, so I can’t be of much help. If such a source is added, the current reference could still support a statement that police readily acknowledge this limitation. JeffConrad (talk) 03:21, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada 

message: I’ve expanded and tried to clarify some aspects of photography on private property in the US. I’ve used a few vague words such as sometimes and many because laws vary among jurisdictions. Krages’s guide is an excellent general reference, but it simply cannot cover every state and local law and related jurisprudence. For example, entry onto private property in California without the owner’s permission is not always an offense. Moreover, California does not criminalize trespass on private property, though it leaves the option to do so open to local jurisdictions; consequently, the legal situation is determined by local law (Penal code § 602 et seq.). Complicating matters even further, the Unruh Civil rights act (Civil Code § 51 et seq.) may grant some rights of access even in the face of local trespass laws; I’m not aware of any relevant jurisprudence related to photography.
We certainly can’t deal with the general situation in this much detail, and I think to arbitrarily cover one state would be to give disproportionate weight. Perhaps we could make some mention that state and local laws vary without becoming a “how-to”, though offhand, I’m not sure how to support such a statement, except perhaps to put some of what I’ve said above in a note. JeffConrad (talk) 03:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Private property in the US 

message: The topic is too complex to be summarised in just a few lines / pages (especially on a global scale). Many specific issues have already been raised, but there are a two fundamental points that do need to be urgently addressed: this topic covers such a wide range of legal and moral issues that a single page summary cannot ever be authoritative or even form a reasonable introduction to the topic; secondly, there is no such thing as 'UK law' (already explained). Mark sted (talk) 11:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor summary 

message: I believe the aspect of intention may be underserved in this article and discussion (i.e. that it is legally and otherwise significantDJC (talk) 05:37, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crucial Point: Intention 

message: This article uses the term "filming" in contexts where modern digital imaging techniques might also apply (or might not depending on the laws in question). The article should be cleaned up to indicate whether the law in question applies to any type of image recording or just film-based technologies. In other words, is it only filming that's prohibited in a given case or would videotaping or a digital motion video recording be prohibited as well? (I realize non-technical people may be use words like video, videotape, and film interchangeable without realizing they mean different things, but an article such as this needs to use correct terminology!) 64.183.245.131 (talk) 23:33, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology needs updating 

message: Once a building is built it is part of the public realm. There is absolutely no restriction on photographing it, as the UK infringement of copyright section states. The owner can impose restrictions on photography from within their own site, but they cannot control photography from the public street, from the air etc. If that were the case Google would be in serious trouble, and Wikipedia has been campaigning against a EU proposal to bring exactly that sort of restriction into force. I'm sure the same applies to works of art displayed in a public space, certainly to public sculpture, murals etc. as for illustrating an 'out of copyright' building, pure nonsense. I hope someone has the time and confidence to revise this section. ProfDEH (talk) 19:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This Daily Mail article claims "The restrictions are already in place in several EU countries, such as Belgium and France, where it is illegal to publish a picture of the Eiffel Tower at night as its light installation is protected by copyright." Admittedly that regards the light installation and not the building. Are we sure that no country has a restriction on photographing public buildings? If not then I am happy to remove that from the article. -Lopifalko (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The section is about the UK not Europe in general, and it is definitely not illegal. Have a look at Freedom of panorama. ProfDEH (talk) 06:48, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I didn't notice it was in the UK section. I've removed the info about architecture. If we have specific info as to "works of art displayed in a public space" then we can either remove that or improve the language for it.-07:57, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photographing architecture etc. 

message: I expected to find in this article dealing with the major (and minor) legal issues facing photographers, their subjects and the owners of property in photographs. Instead it jumps straight into the UK situation. 
Admittedly the subject is huge.
For worldwide readers in English, do other editors agree that this article could be more usefully set out under headings of privacy, consent, property, security, rights to freedom expression etc. with relevant examples, and then the country-specific laws and situations? 
Wiki commons already provides a table giving the legal requirement for gaining consent from photography subjects by country which I will incorporate in the article.
Happy to assist with reformatting the article if others agree this is a way to go.
JamesMcArdle 06:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds as though you have a great idea about the way to proceed. Be bold, and I'll watch your back. -Lopifalko (talk) 09:14, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your support Lopifalko, but I have been stymied by the effort it takes to find laws relating to privacy/public photography in other countries, usually requiring laborious translation (it's no good relying just on news reports). The article Freedom of panorama provides a workable and sensible framework, with a better overview and a map which I think would be essential here. This article is of vital interest to photographers and travellers and should be a better reference than it currently is, but I am afraid it's going to require input from editors from each country mentioned, providing citations from legislation of each that are currently mostly absent.Jamesmcardle(talk) 00:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could this article be more usefully organised? 

message: Sorry, but this article doesn't IMHO even begin to really tackle the subject. There are other, very important aspects of the legality of photography in various jurisdictions, which seem here to be almost ignored. To cite the USA and the UK, and then a selection of diverse other countries, focussing on the (no doubt very important) rights of individual privacy seems to me to be missing the point - there used to be, and I'm sure there still are, countries where the photographing of specific, for most westerners totally innocuous subjects (railways, industrial facilities, government buildings) could land the photographer in jail, or worse. Maelli (talk) 09:58, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  A wishy-washy article 

message: Okay, so in the US legal issues section because it is stating, “in many places it is illegal to film the private parts without their permission.” First off, I believe the legal term is genitalia, so let’s not sugarcoat it. Second of all, it isn’t just illegal is most it is illegal in all areas of the US to film someone’s gentialia without their consent, it is common knowledge, I will edit, but if anyone believes otherwise feel free to revert my edits Erfson (talk) 00:11, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology 

message: The table on WM Commons "Consent required for action related to a picture of a person in a public place (by country)" would be very helpful to insert into this article. However, copying the markup and inserting it does not bring up the table - does anyone know how to do this? I'm stumped! Thank you Jamesmcardle(talk) 00:41, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inserting table "Consent required for action related to a picture of a person in a public place (by country)" would be useful, but... 

message: The article seems to cover taking photographs in the United States pretty well but, if publication was addressed I couldn't find it.  If taking the photograph is legal does that automatically mean publication is legal?  If so, I suggest that fact be stated in the article. If the laws are different for publishing photographs than for taking photographs this needs to be explained. foobar (talk) 16:31, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: These questions have now become part of a dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2019_August_24#24_August_2019 foobar (talk) 12:56, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use/Publication of Pictures