Talk:HIV/AIDS denialism/Archive 5

message: I'll start tackling some of citation-needed tags... better referencing would certainly be useful. MastCell 16:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your edits to the content, and most of your references are good. However, the references on HIV and STIs were related more to increased transmission risks than to epidemiological comparisons, so I cut them. Keep up the good work! Trezatium 19:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, it's worth noting that false positive rates depend on the population being tested, and testing procedures vary around the world (e.g. Western blot tests are not standard in the UK, where three ELISAs are used, and the WHO recommends that fewer tests may be used in areas where prevalence is very high). Trezatium 20:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you considered taking a look at Duesberg hypothesis as well? Trezatium 20:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm quite sure that the HIV Western blot test detects antibodies (for example see ). The HIV/STI statement we need a reference for is: "the risk groups for AIDS are generally the same as those for other sexually transmitted diseases". This can easily be seen by comparing AIDS stats with STI stats, but it would be nice to have a single document to reference. The article's looking quite good now, and I agree that the "sources" tag could be removed soon. Trezatium 20:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right you are about the Western blot... thanks for the reference and the correction. I've edited the article to reflect it. MastCell 21:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations needed 

message: Here's a thought... how would people feel about removing the "Further Reading" section? It's ballooned to an ungodly length and is one of the reasons that this article is so unwieldy. MastCell 23:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the "Further reading" section consists of documents that were once highly relevant. A few months ago the article (which had become quite lengthy) was "hacksawed" and all the orphaned references were dumped in this section (see earlier discussion). It might be a good idea to consult Bob before making any major changes, since he wrote most of the original article. Trezatium 19:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've left a message on his talk page; thanks for the heads-up. MastCell 20:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Further Reading" 

message: How would people feel about removing the "not verified" tag from the top of the article? I think it is almost fully sourced. The few "citation needed" tags remaining deal with the claims of AIDS dissidents; these are duly noted. If anyone can provide sources or citations for these claims (eg AIDS reappraisal literature from which the claims are taken), that would be very helpful. But I do think we can remove the scarlet letter of the "not verified" tag, since almost everything in this article (certainly all scientific claims) are sourced now. Thoughts? MastCell 01:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the tag was there to indicate that some of the dissident claims were not verified, but not to indicate that it was not verified that those claims were made. Initially many of the dissident claims were simply stated as fact without indicating who made the claim, and there is still some of that left. However, I think that the citation needed tags make this clear as well. So I think removing the tag sould be fine. But wait for others to chime in since this article gets pretty contentious. Nrets 01:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you both. Trezatium 17:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Not verified" tag 

message: i just gave this article a peer review. i've made lots of  as this article makes a lot of claims that aren't backed up. also to note that the simple prose "HIV causes AIDS" was stepped around a whole ton.  Examples i've simplfied:
Also this article takes a heavy 'us vs. them' viewpoint, which seems pretty POV to me. I know the nature of the article leads towards minority vs mainstream, but i don't think that it needs to be this bad. Example from Patterns of spread:
Every sentence starts with 'Dissidents think this' or 'Dissidents call to that'. It is a frequent fallback to this article. It sets up a kind of straw man which half the time or more is followed by an unverified claim. Combine this with it being used over 30 times in the article...you get what i mean. 'Skeptics of _______' is another phrase used too much. This needs to be changed.
There is a source from Harpers Magazine written by Celia Farber that is used 7 times, and often very very prominently. She is a reporter and not a doctor, and this source should be removed and replaced with scientific peer reviewed research. It's friggin Harper's Magazine, not a journal.
Finally, the HIV test accurancy section states:
which is followed up the paragraph after the next with:
...which is completely contradictory. it's one or the other. JoeSmack Talk 18:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My hearty congratulations for having slogged through. As to the last point, though, it's both, not one or the other: Dissidents claim that HIV testing is inaccurate, but the facts don't bear them out. That doesn't stop them from repeating the claim, of course. - Nunh-huh 19:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  peer review 

message: The harm is allegued, for god´s sake. To say "Harm caused by dissident views" is flagrant POV.
Wikipedia is not about who is right and who is wrong. Wikipedia is about what such and such source says about such and such issue.Randroide 19:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The word you're looking for is "alleged".  Since the section is a series of estimates of the number of deaths caused by the adoption of dissident views, that's what I've changed the title to. None of those estimates, by the way, are "zero". Do be sure to add such an estimate if you find it.  - Nunh-huh 20:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't we go with "Alleged harm"? I think that's fair. Estimates of deaths is accurate but does sound a little more inflammatory and less encyclopedic/neutral. Thoughts? MastCell 19:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Estimates of deaths" is perfectly accurate. "Alleged harm" is actually less encyclopedic, and misinformative, as it falsely suggests there is reason to believe that the allegations are false or inaccurate. - Nunh-huh 19:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nunh-huh's version is more accurate, but yes, more inflammatory. I'd say stick with it if proper citations are used from credible sources. --Bob 19:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know how it is possible to hold that "alleged" doesn't allege doubt: that's the reason denialists want it inserted. But since there is no opposing data, it's inappropriate to suggest there is. - Nunh-huh 19:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. JoeSmack Talk 20:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone with "Health effects of dissident views" which is inadequate but probably the best Wikipedia can do. - Nunh-huh 04:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, sir. Those deathful effects are "alleged" by AIDS Officialists and denied by "AIDS Denialists" (or AIDS Reappraisers). If you give factual status to those effects you are talking from hte Officialist POV, and thus violating POV rules, due to the fact that this is an Encyclopedia, not the CDC website. Sorry for calling you "AIDS Officialist", but you started using charged expressions like "Denialists". I propose you a less charged terminology, like "consensus" and "reappraisers" o "dissidents", for instance.Randroide 10:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: If you really want to maintain the title Health effects of dissident views, mention should also be made to the life saving effects of the dissident views alleged by the reappraisers. That would be NPOV.Randroide 10:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I will give you an example: Suppose someone erases the "alleged" from the title Alleged suppression of debate. That would exactly the same POV issue, because Reappraisers say that such exactly occurs, but Officialists deny such thing. You can not give factual status to something that is disputed. Not in Wikipedia, at least.Randroide 10:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your solution is to find a citable source in which AIDS denialists deny those deaths, and add it.  In the meantime, then, I guess it's back to "estimated deaths". - Nunh-huh 11:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Estimated deaths" is fine for me. The "estimated" removes any POV issue. Thank you. Randroide 11:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Case in point: I'm Jewish, and I don't believe in Santa Claus. That doesn't mean I can't contribute to the Santa Clause article. This in a nutshell is what NPOV is all about.  JoeSmack Talk 04:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, that's one of the dissident arguments which I believe is discussed in this article. The response from the mainstream medical community (see the NIAID source) has been that drinking, starvation, VD, TB, etc have all been around for ages, but the epidemic explosion in cases of PCP, KS, etc is a new phenomenon, coinciding with the epidemic of HIV infection, and epidemiologically correlated. Again, these arguments are addressed in the article and in the sources cited therein. If you'd like to take a crack at improving the article, by all means go for it. MastCell 18:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''''Allegued''' harm caused by dissident views'' 

message: This section needs to be altered as it’s giving out a distorted message. By suggesting that antibodies cannot neutralise HIV implies that all people infected with are doomed. This is an unfair and wrong statement to make, especially if someone who is HIV positive reads this page. Humans have evolved alongside viruses for millions of years. Even bacteria have to deal with the threat of viral infection so all species of life on earth have developed perfectly evolved mechanisms for dealing with viruses. Therefore with this in mind, for a single virus strain to be 100% effective at killing all humans seems pretty unlikely given our past record of fending off viruses. Also, Wikipedia even has a page dedicated to HIV progression rates which states that there are individuals who are Long Term Non-Progressors (LTNPs) to HIV (i.e. immune to the effects of HIV) and never develop AIDS even without drugs. This has been scientifically proven to occur in at least 3% of people infected with HIV so it seems to me unfair to say that antibodies cannot neutralize HIV because they obviously are in LTNPs. This information needs to be taken into account because HIV positive people looking at this section will automatically assume they are going to develop AIDS when in actual fact they may never do. More work needs to be done to understand immunity in LTNPs and how the mechanisms of HIVs destructive capabilities can be negated. Without referring to this information in this section on antibodies I think debate is being stifled and the full story is not being told. Maybe the section could be renamed to resistance to HIV!! Does anyone else have any opinions on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A4705693 (talk • contribs) .
:There are clearly long-term non-progressors (LTNP's); they make up anywhere from 2-3% to 13% of HIV-infected patients in the US, depending on the study population. Some of them do produce neutralizing antibodies to HIV;
::EVERYONE produces "neutralizing antibodies to HIV", HIV is COMPLETELY neutralized by the immune system...that's why you can barely find it, and when you do, it barely does anything!!
the majority also have a vigorous cell-mediated immune response that likely keeps the virus in check. I've edited the paragraph in question to reflect that, in a small minority of cases, neutralizing antibodies to HIV may be produced and may contribute to becoming an LTNP. However, the idea propagated by some dissidents (eg Celia Farber) that antibodies=immunity is patently false; that was the thrust of the paragraph.
:Let's see, are you going to compare HIV to chronic herpes, shingles, etc., etc.?? Those are like night and day. With the latter, antibodies neutralize the virus, to a dormant state, the immune response subsides, at some point for some reason, the virus is reactivated, and reproduces, producing very large numbers of viruses, then the antibodies come back again to neutralize it, and so on and so forth...and this is what is called a chronic herpes/shingles infection. With HIV, this is night and day. Here, it is supposedly neutralized for 10 years, and then when it comes back, there's still no virus to speak of, there's hardly any of it to find, and it doesn't do anything. Nice comparison, though. 69.252.201.61 20:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antibodies to HIV 

message: Talking about "veracity" is not kosher??? I'm not making a claim about the veracity of anything!! Read closely. I'm making a claim about what DEFINES DISSIDENTS. And saying that what defines a dissident is to deny the veracity of the HIV/AIDS hypothesis is a simple statement of fact, and I fail to see how it's not "kosher". Sorry, I just don't think you've thought this subtle point through well enough. 69.252.201.61 06:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hey Randroide 

message: I thought I had seen everything here at Idiotpedia, but this takes the cake.
Look up the meaning of the word veracity in a dictionary.
There are two concepts involved here:
CONSENSUS: roughly meaning, the vast majority of members of a group have come to a certain conclusion
VERACITY: roughly meaning, truth of a claim or conclusion
Do the vast majority of dissident DENY the consensus? In other words, do they DENY that the vast majority of scientists disagree with them?? NO! Of course most dissidents know they are in the minority. Denying the consensus would be tantamount to saying "everyone agrees with us", "most people think HIV doesn't cause AIDS", etc., etc. This is absurd. It's patently obvious that we're in the minority. I don't deny that. Most dissidents don't.
What we DO deny is the VERACITY of the consensus. In other words, we deny the conclusions of the consensus that HIV causes AIDS.
A subtle difference. I know, one SO subtle that it likely goes way above your peon head.
THINK ABOUT WHAT I HAVE JUST WRITTEN FOR FIVE SECONDS BEFORE REVERTING, DUMBSHITS. 69.252.201.61 06:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV??? =

message: I trimmed some external links for the following reasons: AIDSmyth is a blog, a non-preferred external links. The two "general" links seemed not particuarly germane to the topic; and the "Why I Quit HIV" is a personal testimonial which, again, seemed to add little to the other dissident resources. In general, I'm a minimalist about external links; however, if others have a problem with those removals, feel free to put them back. MastCell 16:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: "AIDS reappraisal" is not Pseudo Science. "AIDS reappraisal" means hey, lets at least consider the possibility of another cause, and dedicate some funding to research into that area. Calling it "pseudoscience" is a political buzz word which is making an incorrect carte blanche statement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yogiudo (talk • contribs) .
:Creationists try to make exactly the same argument. The point is that, according to the vast majority of experts, more than enough research has already been done. It is unreasonable to call for reappraisal of a theory that has so much evidence in its favour. Trezatium 15:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Err... OK. The article says (or said, before your edit) that "The AIDS dissident arguments are considered pseudoscience by the scientific community and public health workers." The point is that the scientific community considers these arguments pseudoscientific. Do you dispute that? Your opinion, while certainly not unimportant, is not really relevant to the above text from the introductory paragraph. MastCell 18:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How can you call this PseudoScience 

message: I've cut the following sentence, which was added by 72.141.37.250, from the intro: "AIDS dissidents argue that the failure of modern science to provide a cure for AIDS is enough of a scientific reason to search for other potential causes." That could certainly be included, but should probably go under "Points of contention", rather than in the intro, since it's fairly specific. And of course, one could argue from the mainstream scientific perspective that, while there's no cure yet, a large array of highly effective treatments have been developed based on the HIV-AIDS model. MastCell 18:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you say this is the central point of dissidents, please provide a reliable source stating this fact. Or state it such that it reads: "According to Virusmyth.com, a dissident website..." Nrets 18:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Nrets. User:72.141.37.250, please re-read my above comment before reverting. I'm not saying it shouldn't go in. I'm talking about where to place it. It is by no means the "central point" of dissidents; rather, it's one argument for reappraisal of HIV-AIDS. If you don't believe me, go back and read the reference you cited to support the sentence. It's full of dissidents badmouthing the NIH, corrupt scientists, poor statistics, flawed trials, etc etc, and there are only a handful of mentions of the lack of a cure. So, as I said above, it deserves inclusion, but not in the intro paragraph; characterizing it as "the central point of dissidents" is unsupportable, at least with the citation you provided. MastCell 18:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentence from intro 

message: I removed the intro line:
The AIDS dissident arguments are considered pseudoscience by the scientific community and public health workers, who argue that dissidents selectively ignore evidence in favour of HIV's role in AIDS and endanger public health by dissuading people from utilizing proven treatments.
This is clearly a carte blache statement and attempts to generalize the opinions of public health workers and the scientific community.
Yogiudo
:Please can we agree to propose and discuss changes on the talk page before editing the article, so as to avoid an edit war. Thanks. Trezatium 19:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the regular contributors to this page want an edit war. You're not being asked to "roll over"; you're being asked to collaborate with other editors on a controversial article. MastCell 20:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean up

message: Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos recently testified in a trial on behalf of Andre Chad Parenzee, who infected a sexual partner with HIV. . It might be important enough to be included here, since it is part of a legal proceding, and will result in an interesting verdict (whether it's right or wrong!). - Nunh-huh 19:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I had heard about that. I think it might be worth waiting a while though to see what happens; there's very little to report so far. David Crowe reports that, "The judge has not yet decided whether Val Turner and Eleni Eleopulos should be classified as expert witnesses."  Trezatium 19:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but if they are admitted as experts, it's news, and if they are rejected as experts, it's news. I'm guessing Australian courts are as capricious as any other, so there's no telling which way they'd go. Some of the things they've been testifying to elucidate their current POV. It's fine to wait for a while, but an interrim report of it might not be amiss until further developments. - Nunh-huh 19:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah yes, speaking of cherry-picking, there's the Padian study again. The news article presented it thus: "According to the Padian paper, a man would have to          with his wife three times a week for 27.4 years to expose her to a 95 per cent risk of passing on HIV." Score one for denialistdissident PR - there's no mention of the fact that in Padian's paper, condom use and safe sex were encouraged and widely used, accounting for the low rate of transmission. Oh well, maybe Eleni's 50-page PowerPoint presentation on how semen causes AIDS (but only with anal-receptive            , not       l            ) will convince the jury to let this upstanding citizen go free to infect a few more people. Guess there really is no such thing as bad publicity for some. MastCell 19:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The latest Parenzee story is called Doubts on HIV's existence 'insane'. Trezatium 20:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: And the judge has said of Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, "I'm not sure what her qualifications are in biology. There don't appear to be any. She appears to be self-taught. I'm not sure upon what basis it's put forward that she is an expert in talking about how diseases are sexually transmitted." (Source) Does this woman have a doctorate or not? Trezatium 13:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, I always assumed she did, but apparently she has a B.S. and not an advanced degree - see here: "...Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, who has a Bachelor of Science and works as a medical engineer at Royal Perth Hospital..." The article also makes clear she has no academic position at either Royal Perth Hospital or U. Western Australia; apparently she works in a technical capacity at RPH. MastCell 17:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't find anything written by EP-E herself in which she claims to have a doctorate. In particular, in the list of rethinkers she cites no qualifications. Trezatium 19:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Denialists in the news 

message: ...i think it's time we all take a chill pill. please? over the last 5 days we've slammed out about 20 pages of discussion (really, i put it in word and checked the pages), and it is all starting to feel snide and pointless. it's Friday, lets all go out and have a good time, or have a romantic dinner with the wife, or watch a movie with a friend, or something - but take a little break to cool off. i think we could use it. :) JoeSmack Talk(p-review!) 17:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  alright guys.... 

message: Walter Gilbert once said that the HIV theory was unproven; according to the AIDS journalist Richard Jefferys, he's since changed his mind: "I am afraid that those comments go back to the late 80's. At that time I was a skeptic--the argument based on Koch's postulates to try to distinguish between cause and association... Today I would regard the success of the many antiviral agents which lower the virus titers (to be expected) and also resolve the failure of the immune system (only expected if the virus is the cause of the failure) as a reasonable proof of the causation argument." (Source) Trezatium 21:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for digging that up. There are actually a few other people mentioned as "AIDS dissidents" who have since been convinced by the accumulation of data (eg Sonnabend, Root-Bernstein). I created the subsection on "former dissidents" to reflect that; sounds like perhaps Gilbert should be moved down there. MastCell 06:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walter Gilbert 

message: Perhaps it should be made clearer that Sonnabend and Root-Bernstein have never denied that HIV might play some role in causation, though they've argued that cofactors are also necessary. Both of them have for a long time disagreed with Duesberg, as explained in their letters to Science (Vol 267, Issue 5195, 13 January 1995). The recent POZ article says that Sonnabend "has not changed his view that developing AIDS, like other infectious diseases, requires cofactors such as other viruses and bacteria," and Root-Bernstein says that, "Both the camp that says HIV is a pussycat and the people who claim AIDS is all HIV are wrong." Trezatium 21:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's a valid distinction - if you want to take a shot at rewording it, by all means. It seems relevant that the accumulation of evidence has convinced some of the more scientifically grounded of the reappraisers that HIV is pathogenic, but of course we shouldn't misrepresent their original views, and you're absolutely right that both R-B and Sonnabend still attach caveats to their acceptance of HIV. MastCell 22:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made a couple of minor amendments which I think are sufficient. Trezatium 17:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Having done some more research, I think it is reasonable to describe them as "former dissidents". Trezatium 17:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sonnabend and Root-Bernstein 

message: You know, I think the fact that Walter Gilbert has disassociated himself from the AIDS dissident camp is important, relevant, and telling. However, after my most recent perusal of Wikipedia's Reliable Sources guideline, it's pretty clear that blogs should not be used as reliable sources. Therefore, I'd propose removing (perhaps commenting out?) the section on Walter Gilbert under "Former Dissidents", unless/until we can find a more reliable source to verify it. (Not that Richard Jeffreys himself is unreliable, but citing a blog as a source is the issue). Again, I think it's an important fact that I'd love to have in the article, but by sourcing it to a blog we're probably stepping over the bounds of WP:RS. Thoughts? MastCell 17:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds reasonable. Trezatium 20:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll comment it out of the article. I'll keep an eye out for a more reliable source documenting the fact that Gilbert appears to have disassociated himself from the movement. MastCell 20:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walter Gilbert 

message: This link (link 18) does not work: "Dead Certain?" Randroide 20:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It works for me in both Firefox 2 and Internet Explorer 7 (Windows XP). Trezatium 20:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Working for me too (from the article and also from the link Randroide posted above) - are you getting a "Site not found", or some other kind of error? MastCell 20:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Only a POZ frame with a blank page in the center. Firefox on Windows98. I will try from a cybercafe. Sorry for the inconvenience. Randroide 20:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem - let us know if it continues to be inaccessible for you. MastCell 22:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe you should try contacting the webmaster at POZ. It sounds like a broswer-specific CSS issue that they might want to sort out. Trezatium 19:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non functional link 

message: Though there are arguments on both sides that have merits the simple matter is if people who do not believe HIV causes AIDS could end this argument easily but simply volunteering to be injected with HIV. If they contract AIDS then all the arguments are thrown out. 
With the possible exception that HIV might be a cofactor and when combined with another virus in the body (such as HPV6) the two cause AIDS.
Yet no advocate of the side HIV does not cause AIDS has ever volunteered to do so? Why not? This has never been explained.
:There are a few explanations. First of all, where would the HIV come from? No lab could ethically provide HIV with the intent that a person would infect themselves. A couple of dissidents have proposed such an idea (infecting themselves), but they've either attached ridiculous and unfulfillable clauses (David Rasnick) or claimed that they need NIH "approval" (which could never ethically be given) - see Peter Duesberg - rendering it essentially a publicity stunt. So what happens to HIV-positive dissidents when they die of AIDS (or get sick, go on meds, and get better)? See here for how the dissident community reacts (hint: blame the victim). What about an HIV-positive dissident mom who infects her child through a refusal to take meds? See Christine Maggiore - after the child dies of AIDS, she denies it and blames amoxicillin. The point is that these beliefs are so deeply held that even if someone is infected with HIV, has no other risk factors (e.g. Maggiore's child), and dies of AIDS, it will still be denied. Finally, as someone who believes that HIV is the cause of AIDS, I would never want someone to knowingly infect themselves, regardless of their beliefs. It's a basic ethical question. As I said above, even if you believe the rabies virus is harmless, that doesn't justify allowing you to infect yourself with a deadly virus to prove a point. MastCell 17:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue of the transmissibility of AIDS via needlestick has already been discussed here - see Yogiudo's thread above. The argument has been made (see the Science magazine series) that the "study" indeed has already been unwittingly performed, in people who have received blood transfusions contaminated with HIV prior to the advent of testing and blood product safety measures. (Hemophiliacs in particular, but also people like Isaac Asimov, Arthur Ashe, etc to name a few famous examples). Needless to say the results were tragic, and provide evidence of the infectivity and pathogenicity of HIV, even in the absence of Duesberg's proposed causes. MastCell 18:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Those arguments are old, and rebuttals to them are found in the sources in the article. See here, for instance, on hemophilia and transfusions. Is there a specific content-related issue to discuss? MastCell 22:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Ultimate Answer