Talk:Amish/Archive 1

message: Hi there, I just did some edits to a couple of sections that seemed American-centric. Hope it helps. 64.231.11.35 00:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: American-centric?

message: There is plenty of good material in this article, but it sure needs to be reorganized; having two different sections named "other" is a bad sign. Howabout this for an outline:
:History
::Origins in Europe
::Amish split
::Recent history
:Religion, lifestyle, and culture
::Technology
::Hochmut & Demut
::Language and dress
::Growth and distribution
:Relations with outsiders (Amish and the outside world? Amish and the "English?" Amish and popular culture? Can't decide what to name this part...)
::Separation
::Taxes, insurance, etc.
Wachholder0 16:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's done. No more "other" sections. Tweak as needed. I was going to split "Religion" and "Lifesty;e and culture", but they appear too closely intertwined. Wachholder0 16:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Organization

message: Several of the sections lack any links at all.  I should probably fix it, but meh... Notthe9 20:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I have wikified everything that deserves to be. I prefer not to over-wikify, so I have not wikified things like dates, etc. Wachholder0 19:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikify

message: how do you submit to featured article status, imo this is a good example of an informative npov article. 
:IMO, this article still has a long way to go before it reaches featured staus. (though I am working on it). See the featured article guidelines.Wachholder0
::I think we are getting closer, though we still have issues of verifiability and perhaps inelegant writing.Wachholder0 19:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some comments on the article. Amish is said to be an ethnic as well as a religious group. Does this mean that if my grandparents are Amish that I am Amish? I have heard Amish used in this sense in one scholarly work, but if we are going to use this definition the article needs changed and it needs to talk about the Mennonite churches which descend from the Amish, which it does not. Second, the term Amish when used in this article, seems to exclude for the most part the Beachy Amish Mennonites, which is alright as long as it is consistant. However, it is not, For example, population figures given do not include the Beachy Amish, yet the phrase given in the same paragraph that says that there are Amish in 47 states inlcudes the Beachy Amish. Suddenly the article changes what it means by Amish to include the Beachy Amish (that is the only way to get this figure), but the population figure given prior does not include the Beachy Amish. So there should be consistancy, or explanations of what the figures include or do not include. About the population figures... what are the sources for these figures (I don't believe both figures are from 1990, I am in fact pretty sure the second figure given is much more recent) and why would we quote a figure from 16 years ago anyway when the Amish population doubles every 21 years or so. There are population estimates given by Kraybill that are very recent (this is where the 228 000 figure probably comes from). The first paragraph states that all Amish speak Pennsylvania German at home (a statement refuted in the language section - the "Swiss Amish" don't speak Pennsylvania German at home). Finally, "rumschpringe" does not translate as "jumping around" in Pennsylvania Dutch, that would be "rumtschumpe" and why is the Standard German "herumspringen" given, because it gives the impression that somehow "rumspringa" comes from "herumspringen" which it does not, although they are cognates. Stettlerj 19:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the Amish are certainly an ethnic group, in the sense that they "identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry" and "are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices." However, other Mennonite groups descended from the Amish likely do not meet this definition, since they have different "cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices," and perhaps have married outside the community and therefore have reduced "common genealogy or ancestry." Right now the article mostly is about the Old Order groups, but I tried to rewrite the intro to emphasize their diversity. Please feel free to make the other changes you suggest. Perhaps it would also be nice to throw in a paragraph more specifically describing the variety of different fellowships. Any thoughts? Wachholder0 15:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done some further cleaning up; I think it's very good up until the section "Relations with the outside world" -- at that point, there's little organization, just a series of topical paragraphs. If it can be cleaned up from there down, do people think it's ready to be nominated for FA status? DavidOaks 00:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: featured article

message: "their pacifism and social conscience make them attractive to one major party, and their generally conservative outlook to another."  This statement makes it seem as though only the followers of one of the two major political parties have social conscience and the followers of the other do not.
::In the course of some stylistic patching, I adjusted this. It's one thing to be NPOV, another to pretend that pacifism is equally likely to be found in both national parties. I don't think NPOV requires us to pretend that "social conscience" is an equally winning slogan for Dems & Reps, any more than "law and order" and "national security" would be, even though just about anybody in any party thinks all those phrases represent good things. DavidOaks 12:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Politics (in intro)

message: Why are these statements under the heading Dress:
"The Amish are noted for the quality of their quilts and for their farming efficiency. Some Amish have enthusiastically adopted genetically engineered crops for their efficiency."
         
I'm not very educated about the Amish way of life, but it strikes me as extremely confusing to read about them accepting the use of GM (oh, or is it GE, genetically engineered) seeds for farming. I do believe that this deserves a very good explanation, reference, or both. Oh well, there was a mention of recent vandalism on history. Maybe it's just that? 62.220.237.68 21:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dress Section

message: health care in canada is free, why were donations collected for the child?
Good point. It is probably just a fabrication. There is a small chance that it is not false. There is a chance that the Amish refuse to accept OHIP for example, and insist on paying themselves, but I dont think the Amish in Ontario refuse OHIP. Many Amish in Canada were in fact born in the USA, but then again, this child came from an Amish community that has been in Canada since the 1820's! Stettlerj 00:06, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: other 

message: "The Amish are a tight-knit religious group, descending predominantly from Swiss German immigrants". The Sweiss German immigrants in where? The Swiss Germans in Austria are amish? The introduction is extremely ambiguous, as it does not specify where these immigrants live, or what country/continent/group of countries are we talking about. Personally, I do not believe that there are Amishes in North Italy, where there are Swiss German immigrants. Do you mean Swiss Germans in Brazil, or in France, or in Canada, perhaps Austria, or Eastern Europe, or where? --85.49.224.216 15:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wait... WHAT? 

message: What does it tell us about our society that this site seems to be one of the greatest magnets for vandalism? Stettlerj 13:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a theory that vandalism can be correlated with research topics done by school children. Somehow I placed the New Deal article on my watch list and now notice that it is much more heavily vandalized than this article. It tends to happen during North American daytime hours and IP addresses often trace to schools. And maybe that brings us full circle back to this article: adolescents are more free to experiment with choices that many of us have given up by the time we reach the age of 25. JonHarder 15:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism and this site 

message: The Hex signs link said
Contrary to some popular fiction, hex signs are not a part of Amish culture.
so I removed it from this article. OK?
(PJB 19:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hex Signs 

message: This webpage and the pages linked to at the top and bottom have the same text as this article. Have they taken it from us or the other way around? -- Kjkolb 09:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I contacted the owners but they did not respond. For this and other reasons, I suspect that they have copied the content from Wikipedia. -- 
I attempted to contact you regarding this issue. I have no intention of violating wiki copyright. I have added the lisencing at the bottom of the page. I dont know if this is enough, but I appreciate the wiki service, and would like to operate my business in compliance with your standards! Let me know if I have done everything to ensure proper representation.Kjkolb 02:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright violation? 

message: This article in my opinion has a few problems, which I will perhaps correct later. Some are quite minor like  rumschpringe is never translated as "jumping around" (that would be "rumtschumpe"), but others are more major like no mention of the word "Ordnung" anywhere in the article, which is a term that is fundamental to understanding the Amish. The article talks about teenagers and rumschpringe and seems to suggest that teenagers or young adults who choose not to get baptised ever are eventually shunned, which is not the case. The article could perhaps talk somewhat about the government and the Amish, esp. post 9-11, since U.S. security measures and the Amish Ordnung often conflict. There is no mention of the Amish history in Europe. I also don't like the references that non-Mennonites don't understand the Amish. A lot of Mennonites don't understand themselves let alone the Amish, especially those who don't live beside the Amish, and of course some non-Mennonites would understand them just fine. Just my 25 cents worth. Stettlerj 01:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article 

message: I remember reading somewhere that alcohol and other intoxicants (recreational drugs) are prohibited within Amish communities. The article does not currently seem to mention about it (unless I have missed it) and so I am wondering if this correct or not, or if (like Tobacco which is mentioned) the policies are different between different communities? Canderra 15:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Policies are different in different communities. Alcohol was used in early Amish communities as far as I know and the practice continues in some communities. Smoking occurs in many Amish communities. Stettlerj 21:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alcohol and other Intoxicants? 

message: I deleted the statement that "they do not expose themselves to popular culture." Not sure it's meaningful without closer definition -- unless we're just talking about media which depend on electricity. Adamdavis 03:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop Culture 

message: There's sometimes a lot of vandalism here, and I'm wondering what's behind it. I've read several books on the Amish, but I haven't lived close enough to them to know why folks mightn't like them. Lou Sander 21:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People know very little about the Amish.  There are plenty of myths that can fool even those whom have grown up around the Amish -- particularly when it comes to topics such as Rumspringa.  Basically, it's Human nature to mock what is unfamiliar. --Thisisbossi 21:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm wondering if they get mocked/vandalized in areas near where they live. I could see the school kids making trouble for the Amish kids, who don't go to the school kids' schools. Lou Sander 02:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nah, I never really noticed any issues like that growing up in northern Lancaster County.  Most people just accept it as a way of life, and when I was young I thought there were Amish everywhere -- not just primarily in Lancaster County.  I'm sure there are some youths that have yelled nasty things and I can recall a couple times where the newspaper's police log mentioned vandalism or verbal abuse; but by-and-large it's not at-all a common occurrence.  Oh, apart from when the Amish teenagers are playing with the electronics in the supermarket... I'll admit even I smirk at that, but people are usually respectful enough to keep their chuckling to themselves.  All of the Amish I know are understanding that they lead a very different way of life and simply ignore any insults thrown their way.  As they tell me, the major concern between them and the outside world consists of two things: rising costs of living and road safety.  To them, public image is irrelevant. --Thisisbossi 01:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why the vandalism? 

message: I did a rough translation from the German Wikipedia to create the Ausbund article. It would be helpful for anyone knowledgeable to go over that article. It should probably be referenced from this article as well. JonHarder 20:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ausbund 

message: The short paragraph about this has been edited and re-edited many times. If one Googles 'amish mormon', one finds many references to the confusion between the two religions, but no explanations for the confusion (at least I didn't find any). It seems like the main confusion was from the film subtitles. I've deleted the "since" stuff, since no source is cited, it seems pretty speculative, and folks keep editing the wording. Lou Sander 13:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason Mormons and Amish are confused is because no one really takes the effort to get to know about either group. Both groups are somewhat secret and mysterious from the outside. I'm just not sure why they're confused, they're vastly different. I agree though, there should be no more editing regarding the Amish and Mormon confusion.Reidhoch 13:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amish and Mormons 

message: Ordnung, which is linked to by this article, has had little attention paid to it and could use expansion.  --Xyzzyplugh 11:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ordnung article

message: Why the emphasis on this obscure alphabet at the expense of commonly-understood ways of expressing English pronunciations? The IPA article says it "is used, often on a day-to-day basis, by phoneticians, dialectologists, and other linguists; speech scientists and speech therapists; foreign language teachers; lexicographers; and translators." Most of our readers probably fall outside that group. Why disrespect them by using the jargon and symbology of a narrow academic field? Lou Sander 16:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that most people don't know this system but what system do they know? For accuracy reasons and because it is an international standard I think we should use IPA however. What phonetic writing system would everybody be familiar with anyway? The answer is probably none (what commonly understood way is there, for example, to show the difference between the vowel in food and foot which everyone understands?) Might as well use the internationally, scientifically accepted method and once learned, it can be applied to any language to show pronounciations. Stettlerj 17:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  International Phonetic Alphabet 

message: In light of today's events in Paradise, please take a moment of your time to honour the children whom have perished both in Lancaster County and in other schools throughout the country during this past week.  I would just like to ask that, due to today's tragedy, those whom have come here to learn more about the Amish please understand that these are a people whom mean no harm of any kind toward the outside world.  They are by their very creed a peaceful and non-resistant culture.  I know this school well, and I am acquainted with many whom have grown up around it.  May they all someday find peace.  --Thisisbossi 23:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My condolences. Inforazer 18:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Mine, too.PaulLev 19:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tragedy in Paradise 

message: The BBC have just published an article on their website which is largely based on this one. It can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5400904.stm.
-143.167.20.118 07:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, but we're already aware (look above 2 sections). --Thisisbossi 10:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BBC article 

message: Although I can't really read IPA, I can tell there is only one pronunciation listed. On the news  regarding the recent shootings two different pronunciations were used fairly consistently (in the UK at least): sometimes the first syllable as "arm" and sometimes as "aim". If there is a good explanation as to why one is more "correct" then it should be noted. Otherwise the other pronunciation should be added as a variant. GalaxiaGuy 10:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I grew up adjacent to Amish Country and half of my family is of Amish/Mennonite descent.  I can't speak for Amish communities elsewhere, but in that region it is universally pronounced "AHM-ish".--Caliga10 11:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did the IPA a few days ago and my researches agreed with Caliga 10 and suggested that the "ahm" pronunciation is the most accurate, and that is the one I transcribed.  Just to add to the problem,  I heard a third variation on the news with an "a" as in cat.  This was originally in the article before I converted.  I just don't know how many "incorrect" pronunciations we are bound to provide, since WP is not a dictionary  --Slp1 11:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

text: In addition, I know that folks in Kentucky and Indiana use the prononciation I sounded out above (there are a number of Amish communities in Indiana), so I've heard it used elsewhere.  I've never heard anyone use the "AIM-ish" pronunciation except for people with no exposure to the Amish (i.e. who are just guessing at the pronunciation).  Can't say for sure whether or not it's used in western Pennsylvania or Ohio, though.--Caliga10 13:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: The article currently only mentions the recent tragedy in Nickel Mines in the "See Also" section.  Does anyone think it should have a more prominent mention in this article, or is the link enough?  Thoughts? -- Fogelmatrix 14:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree.  But is there an article on School Shootings?  If so, then that might be the right place to mention yesterday's tragedy, with a link to the Amish article.PaulLev 19:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.--Caliga10 21:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed. I think the shooting should have its own article, linked from see also. Wachholder0 04:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  -I thought perhaps mentioning it in relation to the Amish's absolute pacifism, their complete rejection of violence.  -- Fogelmatrix 17:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, but again I respectfully disagree.  I also note the irony given the beliefs of the Amish, but it's apparent that they were not targeted because they were Amish, but instead because they were conveniently-located in relation to the killer.  Given that it (pardon me for making another analogy) is almost akin to including a section on the Colorado shooting that happened last week in the article about 'Caucasians' because the victim happened to be a Caucasian.  There is already a link to the Amish school shootings article in the 'See Also' section of this article and I personally think that this suffices, because we do have an obligation to provide information to the casual viewer who might look at this article hoping to find information about the shootings.--Caliga10 17:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Caliga- I too must respectfully disagree.  First, your analogy of this situation and the Colorado situation doesn't work.  Caucasians are an ethnic group, a very wide ethnic group, encompassing damn near everyone of European descent (including the Amish).  They encompass many countries and cultures.  The Amish, on the other hand, are a very small community and a very distinct culture.  Secondly, as the commenter below mentioned, the Amish reaction to this tragedy is very telling about their way of life.  I think we all have been moved by the voice of a mourning grandfather forgiving the killer, even before his grandchild is laid to rest.    It is a very appropriate example of the Amish's philosophy of peace, pacifism, and above all, forgiveness. -- Fogelmatrix 16:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Would it not be a good idea to incorporate the tenants of forgiveness being shown by the Amish people in this situation, however.  For example, they have welcomed the perpetrator's wife and have offered her charity as a victim in this situation.   I would think it would be good to highlight this belief structure a little more in the article.  Whether or not to reference this incident as an example would require a bit more thought though. --12.0.47.2 19:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2006 Shootings 

message: Just a propos of nothing. 64.5.98.6 23:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Verifiability is one of the three pillars of Wikipedia

message: The account of Mary Kuepfer (the Milverton, Ontario Amish girl who was hit in the face by a beer bottle in 1997) asserts that the bottle was eventually found to have been thrown from a passing Amish buggy, rather than from a car as was originally assumed.  Is there any source for this info?  I've marked this claim with a  tag; if no source can be found for the statement, it really ought to be removed.  Richwales 04:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for putting in perhaps a comment directed at one person in the edit summary, I forget we are not supposed to do this ("...to inform you, the Globe and Mail reported that the bottle was thrown by the Amish themselves. The article would be from 1997 so have fun finding it."). I suppose the point I am trying to make is that even though I am not the person who included this story about the beer incident, I know the story and so I think it must be stated that it was thrown by the Amish themselves, as reported in the media... I am trying to find a source but I can't. It might have been that the conclusion was that it was thrown by the Amish. I know in Perth Co. that is what the general consensus was but whether it was proven or not is another story. I think the entire story should be removed since it is doubtful it deserves mention especially when there is no proof of what happened, and that probably it was the Amish themselves. Stettlerj 01:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mary Kuepfer -- Canadian Amish girl hit by beer bottle in 1997 

message: I am requesting citation for the assertion that "Almost all of these Amish phones  [shanties] have voice mail service from the phone companies". This is a very interesting point that I had not come across before -- I think it should be included if it can be supported by a source, but it is likely too new to be found in any of the usual sources and is not something that is widely known.Tvoz 21:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  citation requests 

message: I like how the categories movies, television and fiction are distinct.  We would not want to confuse movies and television portrayals with 
fiction.  Ha!
:You know, it would have been ok and taken less time to just go in and change "fiction" to "novels" rather than making your comment here.  But that's ok, I  did it for you. (By the way - "fiction" was intended to encompass novels and short fiction, some of which I will be adding as soon as I collect the references. I'll fix the heading again then)Tvoz 19:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In movies AND fiction 

message: This section was removed - perhaps inadvertently? - and I have reinstated it. 
Also, the most recent edits of the telephone paragraph were incorrect. The article referenced noted that as cell phone use has increased in the general population across the country, the number of public pay phones  has decreased.  The impact this has had on the Amish in Maryland, and presumably elsewhere, is that fewer pay phones are available to them, so they are increasingly doing what Lancaster County Amish have been doing for a long time - they are building and using  phone shanties at the edge of their property, or perhaps on a neighboring "English" farm, so that they can make phone calls but not have the  telephone intrude into their homes.   So the edit saying that the phone shanties have decreased was incorrect - I have reinstated the original wording, and clarified it.  Tvoz 16:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  modern technology 

message: I removed the POV tag that was put up last night without any explanation - I see no justification for it, as this article is a neutral description of the Amish and has been designated a "good" article.   If there are objections to it I think they should be discussed here before throwing on a tag that questions the neutrality of an article that has been diligently worked on by many editors, and that does not make value judgments. Tvoz 18:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ack, I'm so sorry T_T I wasn't really paying attention, and I read the first few sentences and it seemed negatively biased. Guess kaiti shouldn't work when half asleep! Again, my apologies... stupid mistake ~Kaiti~ 12:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's ok, Kaiti - none of us should work when we're half asleep!  No harm done. Tvoz 15:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV? 

message: Why was this page removed from the 'Pennsylvania culture' category?  The Amish are an important part of Pennsylvania history and culture.  If the idea in doing so was to emphasize that the Amish can be found in large numbers in other states, then I think a more appropriate solution would be to link the article to categories on state culture for those states.--Caliga10 12:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Caliga10 completely on this and am reinstating the categories and adding a few others. Also will look for appropriate cats to add from other states. Although at present Ohio's Amish population is a bit higher,  Pennsylvania and the Amish are closely intertwined and someone browsing on another PA page should be able to link back to Amish via categories.  Unless there is some other reason that is not apparent, I think the cats should remain. Tvoz 16:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category removals? 

message: Sorry for putting in perhaps a comment directed at one person in the edit summary, I forget we are not supposed to do this ("...to inform you, the Globe and Mail reported that the bottle was thrown by the Amish themselves. The article would be from 1997 so have fun finding it."). I suppose the point I am trying to make is that even though I am not the person who included this story about the beer incident, I know the story and so I think it must be stated that it was thrown by the Amish themselves, as reported in the Globe and Mail or the entire mention of the event needs to go. The event was reported in 1997 in the Canadian media and probably got no mention in the US. Stettlerj 01:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ontario buggy - beer incident 

message: User 70.167.35.146 removed the reference to celery from the wedding section suggesting it was a joke entry.  I did a quick check and found several separate websites that talk about this custom (not picked up from this Wikipedia article) so I reinstated the text, slightly modified it, and added two of the sites as reference info.   If anyone knows more about this, and can verify the accuracy or inaccuracy of the item, please do so.  Otherwise edits shouldn't be based on people saying they "know" something is incorrect just because they've personally never seen it. Tvoz 06:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  weddings and celery 

message: Just a heads up that someone whacked off the whole end part of this article, which the reverters have missed. I'm busy working on other problems, so won't fix it myself. JonHarder 00:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Can anyone else find anything online relating to Amish letter writing? I've noticed among my Amish relatives that they tend to write letters to one another much more frequently than the 'English'. This is due to the obvious lack of telephones, but I was just wondering if anyone had seen anything worth quoting on it? Reidhoch 13:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letter Writing 

message: The Amish are ... found in the United States and Ontario, Canada. They are living there, not found. What is the real true? --Pockey 20:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to be bold and edit such things by yourself :)   I changed it slightly and invite others to modify it further.  --Thisisbossi 21:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First sentence 

message: The article is getting fairly large. Should some of the material be spun off into new articles? Wachholder0 15:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a little long, but I don't think any of it should be spun off at this point - it's well integrated, and all sections seem to me to be directly relevant and necessary for an understanding of this group.  It makes sense to spin off when there are, say, long lists inside an article - but in this case I'd rather see it remain intact as it is.   Tvoz 16:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Time for the long tag?