Talk:Hatter (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
:Discussion closed again... somehow the polltop template output was either lost since the original close or never there, if someone wants to find out exactly how and repair the damage, and preferably then archive the page, that's fine, meantime this is a quick fix. Andrewa (talk) 17:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support as nominator. Robin Johnson 11:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Wow - that was pretty quick voting - four days, just three people, and zingo! it's done. Is one of you Katherine Harris in disguise? - DavidWBrooks 13:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move 2006

message: :Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
*Support as nominator. Robin Johnson 11:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey 2006

message: I know I'm digging this up from 2004, but Wikipedia:Article titles says: article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Mad Hatter fits both of these much better than the current title. Robin Johnson 11:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
Wow - that was pretty quick voting - four days, just three people, and zingo! it's done. Is one of you Katherine Harris in disguise? - DavidWBrooks 13:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion 2006

message: Not everyone reading about the Mad Hatter knows about Oxford Colleges and if read in a straightfoward, this looks like a place name. Thefore I added the info. I can only shake my head on your edit summaries (is that better than nothing?) - how was my addition "incorrect"? If I didn't word it in the best possible manner, why aren't you simply correcting it to a better wording? Str1977 (smile back) 15:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not everyone reading the article will know what an Oxford College is either; we can't explain everything — that's what the internal links are for.  "Christ Church College" is simply wrong — something like referring to "Sorbonne University". --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 15:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If so, then you could have corrected it. I take it that you have no objection to the current version? Str1977 (smile back) 16:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Christ Church

message: William Ewart Gladstone was mentioned as a possible model for the Hatter in the article about Theophilus Carter:
"Further to this correspondence, W. J. Ryland, who had originally mentioned Carter in connection with the clockwork bed, testified that he had not known "that Carter was the original of the 'Mad Hatter,' but on looking again at the Tenniel drawing I see it is he to the life. To me," he went on, "he was the living image of the late W. E. Gladstone, and, being well aware of the fact, was always careful to wear the high collar and black stock so often depicted in Punch in cartoons of the 'Grand Old Man.""
About Gladstone it is mentioned in his article that he was "matriculating in 1828 at Christ Church, Oxford"
Manorainjan (talk) 11:12, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: [[William Ewart Gladstone]]

message: The Mad Hatter may have been a satire on heavy tea drinkers. I think there was some suspicion about tea's effects on health at the time, to the degree of alarmism. Offhand, I have no sources and it may just be erroneous memory on my part, but it may be worth looking at.--ChrisJMoor 17:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: satire of heavy tea drinkers?

message: The entry has been a part of the 'The Mad Hatter in Popular Culture', a sentence or two, for the past three years. The Google hits remain the same, if not more prolific. Why was it suddenly removed?
Thank you.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.88.66.50 (talk) 09:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Requesting information for removal of entry?

message: I am aware of the "Mad as a Hatter" saying deriving from mercury poisoning, but are the symptoms really as they are described in the article? Ivan the Terrible is supposed to have suffered from it, and I'd hardly call him "shy" or a person who "didn't want to be noticed"- albeit whilst accepting that he is nothing like the Hatter either.  Not050 (talk)Not050Not050 (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 21:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Pretty Sure that was poisoning from lead pewter ;).  Wht confuses -me- is that I had been taught that curium was often used in place of mercury after it's discovery, which led to madness more akin to that of the Hatter's. I have no citation for this other than teachings of childhood science books and whatnot. Can anyone verify or utterly deny that curium was used in hatting? Thanks --97.91.175.154 (talk) 22:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mercury poisoning

message: In 'Who Stole the Tarts?' the Hatter says that the hat isn't his (when the King asks him to remove it), since he sells them all, being a hatter. Doesn't that clear up the question of the price label? (Invalidating the argument that he left the price label on after the purchase, adding to his madness, as it says in the article.) 
121.210.208.168 (talk) 06:45, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Price Label

message: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_is_a_raven_like_a_writing_desk
http://www.eeggs.com/items/1928.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.178.79 (talk) 23:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A writing-desk has a front and a back, and one never puts the front, with the drawers, against the wall. -- Evertype·✆ 08:52, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, that makes a little more sense with the writing-desk, but it doesn't really seem to apply to a raven as well. Unless it's simply saying they both have a front and a back. I doubt that's what it means because of how extraordinarily dull and generic such an answer would be. Dr. Cheis (talk) 03:57, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We should not be renewing an ancient discussion, particularly one not terribly relevant for improving the article, but I noticed your comment and took the time to read this section. I had never before understood the proposed solution to the riddle, but from the above I see that "it is nevar put with the wrong end in front" is clever: we write "raven" and never write "nevar" (which is raven backwards); in the same way, a writing desk is never placed backwards. Johnuniq (talk) 04:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "Why is a raven like a writing desk?"  Carroll's answer.

message: Actually they are called Mad Hatters for a reason...
They used to make hats and they would make them with Mercury (Poison). They would put Mercury on the pin/needle to hold the hat together, once they wanted to change the hat again they would take out the pin/needle and place it in their mouth to hold it, such as we do today with other objects... once they got that mercury through their body it would poison them and turn them psycho. So they would call them Mad Hatter. and they did call him the Mad Hatter in the book and the play. He is a very real character... they existed in the old days!!! Don't comment unless you know what you're commenting about!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.46.189  (talk • contribs) 01:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; but AFAIK mercury is hardly poisonous in liquid form (I even heard that you could eat it it would just pass your bowels; but that was 1965 when people were much more tolerant towards chemicals), but it is poisonous to inhale its vapor (e.g. if a drop of it rolls to a corner of the floor and is not found so it can vaporize on and on). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.225.74.34  (talk • contribs) 01:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Older

message: 10/6 is talking about the Mad Hatter style.it is said Have you ever seen people walking aroung with the stickers still on the hat? That got originated from the Mad Hatter. It stands for the what they call it the Mad Hatter Day.It is on October (the 10th month in a year) and the 6th day of the month. The average amount that they payed was 10 shilling sixpence. In Britian the Mad Hatter day is on June (the 6th month in a year) and the 10th day in that month. That is what the 10/6 means on the Mad Hatters hat. Thanks to him we have that style now to leave the tage on the hats.
By the way I am a 12 year old... and I also commented on the one right above this on what a Mad Hatter actually is!!!! I am very sad to see that you people are just talking on what you think this all means... not that you know!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.46.189  (talk • contribs) 01:17, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: 10/6

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Hatter_%28comics%29  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.84.115.71 (talk) 23:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Mad Hatter from batman (comics)

message: How can the Mad Hatter be described as a seamstress? One he is he, not a she and secondly, millening is more than sewing hats, it includes making them the right shape, and selling them. 89.240.107.118 (talk) 15:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Seamstress?

message: "Although the name "Mad Hatter" was undoubtedly inspired by the phrase "as mad as a hatter", there is some uncertainty as to the origins of this phrase." - 
No, _the_ _origin of the phrase_ is clear (the mercury); what there is uncertain is whether L. C. created the character as a victim of mercury or to the resemblence of Th. Carter. - Yog-S — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.225.74.34  (talk • contribs) 01:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: an error

message: Maybe it's futile to try to have a neat poll at this stage, but let's start a discussion section anyway. Andrewa (talk) 17:30, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have neatened the polls, I think. -- Evertype·✆ 18:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

text: The pattern above seems to be that the articles go by the common name, disambiguated where necessary, which is exactly what the article naming policy seems to suggest. I see no relevance at all to the current discussion, as there seem to be no cases above where Caroll's name is preferred to a different common name, as proposed in this move request. Andrewa (talk) 20:01, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be happy to have the article simply named Hatter (with a hatnote pointing to Hatmaking), if you think that Hatter (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland) is too long. I object to the article being listed under a misnomer, whether it is common or not. An encyclopaedia should instruct. -- Evertype·✆ 12:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Which means your view is—? -- Evertype·✆ 10:15, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

text: That it doesn't matter, since we set up redirects from all the various usages to wherever the article lands. Nobody will fail to find this article, no matter which title we use - and that's what mattes: The readers, not us. Out of laziness, I'd leave it alone and spend all this high-level editorial energy on more interesting and/or useful questions. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree with that, the "controlling" document WP:TITLE and common sense will both tell you that the title is like the "name" of a team, person, structure, etc. in real life—it means something. Yeah, I get the part about redirects and so on, but the title does have serious implications. It represents formality, and summarizes to the extreme the topic. If you fall on the "support" side logically, I believe you do since you were the lone voice of dissent in 2006, but don't wish to defend, couldn't you just restate what you wrote there that the name Mad Hatter does not occur in the book? Very little effort involved, you can still celebrate laziness! The craziness and chest beating over these issues can be numbing, I get the existentialist cynical blues too. But in the end there would be no encyclopedia if not for the need to educate. If the readers matter most, we should help insure they don't leave after reading still using a misnomer, and moving the article would do that with highest efficiency. Sswonk (talk) 14:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What part of WP:TITLE says that the "article title means something"? Those of us who have written the thing have done our best to ensure that it says that article titles aren't names, and don't have magical significance; in part to quiet the perpetual warfare for the "right" name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: My meaning, in my response to DavidWBrooks, was that the title is not "meaningless", or "yes, it does matter." I won't get caught up in navel gazing beyond saying that the project wouldn't have a policy entry about titles if that were not the case. Ceci n'est pas une pipe and so on. I get that view of things. However, you are seriously headed on the wrong course if you seek to remove meaning with policy. Titles are used to identify. Titles absolutely have meaning by their essence. F- magical significance, but don't title an article with a misnomer in deference to Hollywood. Not everything editors profess can be mocked to death in the name of satisfying the least common denominator of a simplistic definition of "the reader". We're here to help educate and inform, not entertain. Titles have meaning and credibility very much matters when presenting an encyclopedia. We are at an endpoint. Beyond this, arguing is silly. I won't get caught up. Simply understand I won't be sold a bill of goods, i.e. the concept that titles are meaningless. Sswonk (talk) 02:25, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

text: The choices seem to be an accurate title that few people get when they see it (e.g., Hatter), an accurate but convoluted title that nobody will remember (e.g.,Hatter (Alice in Wonderland character)), or an inaccurate title that people do get and remember (e.g., Mad Hatter). None is (or "are", both are fine) completely right. None seems an obvious choice given wikipedia standards and tradition. All are partly bad. So just leave it as is - that's my vote. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I appreciate that. To me, The Hatter is obvious, since that is what Carroll called the character and that is what the article is about. Sswonk (talk) 02:25, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I can support The Hatter. -- Evertype·✆
Dave, if you think it doesn't matter, then you should have no objection to moving the article in order to satisfy those who do. -- Evertype·✆ 00:39, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Correct - I'm not voting/opining/weighing in, one way or the other. Just as long as the move is done properly I don't think it matters. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:41, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to point out again that the move in 2006 was not "done properly". The argument was poor and the participation of the community was less than comprehensive. -- Evertype·✆ 09:09, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion

message: *Support moving to Mad Hatter with little rationale, 2006, Robin Johnson
*Support moving to Mad Hatter with no rationale, 2006, Philip Baird Shearer
*Oppose moving from Mad Hatter asserting that it's "clearly preferred", 2010 Andrewa
*Oppose moving from Mad Hatter asserting that it's "customary", 2010 Septentrionalis
*Oppose moving from Mad Hatter asserting that it's "most commonly known", 2010 Gavia immer
*Oppose moving from Mad Hatter asserting that it's "the most common name" and that "we are not supposed to prefer the academically 'correct'" 2010 -Born2cycle
*Oppose moving from Mad Hatter asserting that it's "most commonly known" but referring to 20th-century films, 2010 Eureka Lott
*Oppose moving from Mad Hatter asserting that it's "most commonly known", 2011 PowersT
*Oppose moving to Mad Hatter noting that it's not Carroll's name, 2006, DavidWBrooks
*Support moving from Mad Hatter arguing that an article about Carroll's character should have Carroll's name, 2010, Evertype
*Support moving from Mad Hatter per Evertype's argument, 2010,  J04n
*Support moving from Mad Hatter per Evertype's argument and for consistency with other articles, 2010,  Alison
*Support moving from Mad Hatter with many arguments including accuracy and primacy of terminology, 2010,  Sswonk
*Support moving from Mad Hatter supporting Carroll's terminology, 2010, SarekOfVulcan
*Support moving from Mad Hatter supporting Carroll's terminology, 2011, DL5MDA
*Support moving from Mad Hatter arguing that a disclaimer in the lead is unsatisfactory, 2011, Curtis Clark
There is certainly no consensus to keep the page at Mad Hatter, and not one of those who have asserted that it's "most common" have addressed the substantive issues raised by Sswonk (more so than myself) or addressed the question of the preferences of Carrollian scholarship. Since Hatter and The Hatter and Hatter (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland have all been proposed, I suggest that the sensible thing to do is to choose one of those. The Hatter as noted by Sswonk is similar to The Sheep and is probably the best choice. 10:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The page has been at Mad Hatter since 2006.  Regardless of your opinion of the quality of the older move discussion, four years of stability is a strong indicator of consensus and requires a contravening consensus to overturn.  Until you can generate that consensus, which is clearly not in evidence here, the article should remain where it is.  Powers T 13:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, from wikipedia practice and principle, not from any opinion about what title is correct: It takes consensus to move an article, not to keep it; in sports lingo, a tie goes to the home team. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 15:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't even begin to understand this attitude. The WIkipedia is not some bizarre sort of "stabilized" shrine where mistakes must be perpetuated on foot of unsubstantiated assertions. Not one person who opposes the present move has given any substantive argument. It is clear that the 2006 move was made on the basis of no discussion whatsoever. The discussion we have had here has been much more substantial—particularly Sswonk's contributions, and nothing I've seen from the opposition has seriously addressed what is clearly a problem. The fact that an expert objects, and has offered not one but three different options for compromise. All the opposers have bothered to do is say "well, Common Name rules". And it does not. And the opposers have not PROVED that it is the most common name. The opposers haven't even tried. The opposers have just made assertions. I have indicated that in Carrollian scholarship, people are ALWAYS careful to respect Carroll's terminology—and for good reason. The opposers haven't even acknowledged this. A re-direct is sufficient for the teeming millions who will type in "Mad Hatter". But that is NOT the character's name. It may be a common nickname. But all the other Alice articles use the characters' names. I get NOTHING out of this whole discussion that shows that there is a shred of good faith on the part of a single one of the opposers. They have ignored the arguments, and done nothing but repeat the same thing over and over again. And now, David, you say that this stonewalling on their part means that the article is stuck where it is? No wonder experts disdain this encycolopaedia. -- Evertype·✆ 19:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have heard (read, actually) versions of this "ignoring experts is a bad idea" point of view many times in the years of fiddling with wikipedia, and there's something to be said for it. Nonetheless, this is the way wikipedia works, for better or for worse, and it seems to have done pretty well as a result. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You might consider the wisdom of getting off the fence and taking a stand, DavidWBrooks. Your studied neutrality doesn't help to achieve a compromise. And three compromise names have been offered. Are these to be ignored? When you say "This is the way Wikipedia works" all I can say here is that the kind of anti-academic anti-accuracy stonewalling that we have seen in those opposing a move is an indication of how the Wikipedia does NOT work. -- Evertype·✆ 23:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

text: There was no genuine consensus to move the article in 2006. That process was clearly flawed. You (and the others who oppose moving the article now) have yet to offer anything but your assertion that "Mad Hatter" is "obviously" and "clearly" the "most common" name. Sswonk's arguments are actual arguments: The article is about a character whose author gave that character a name, and there is nothing inappropriate about naming the article about that character according to the same principles used to name the articles about all the other characters in the novel. You can show no "harm" for using Hatter or The Hatter or Hatter (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)—while we have argued that accepting the misnomer as the character's name does mislead the users of the encyclopaedia, and that needlessly. The default position of the Wikipedia is not "do nothing unless there is consensus". The default position is "be bold". Now we have heard complaints about Hatter (which some think might point to Hatmaking and Hatter (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland) (which some think is too long, though they don't think the same about the other article names), but Sswonk and I have offered a third, accurate name for the article, The Hatter, which is just as transparent (and accurate) as The Sheep. Except that I cannot overwrite a re-direct because I do not have administrative powers I would be bold and move the article there now. I say again: There is no consensus to keep the article where it is. It must be moved, and we have in good faith offered three different places to move it. Kindly have some flexibility. Since the article is about Carroll's character, not Disney's, it should accordingly bear Carroll's name for him. -- Evertype·✆ 15:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary of !votes

message: Summary rebuttal of the application of WP:COMMONNAME to perform the 2006 move, and now oppose this requested move:
COMMONNAME begins:Articles are normally titled using the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject of the article in English-language reliable sources.  This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article.  
:::The subject of this article is the Hatter, a character introduced by Lewis Carroll in his 1865 fantasy novel Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Later adaptations, mostly theatrical and cinematic productions, have added "Mad" to the character's name in their dramatis personæ, however those adaptation are secondary topics of this article.
COMMONNAME then states:Article titles should be neither vulgar nor pedantic. Common usage in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name. Other encyclopedias may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register as well as what name is most common (see below).
:::Neither vulgar nor pedantic, The Hatter is the name used in recent reliable sources such as  when discussing this literary character. In the second source, "The Mad Hatter" is used to discuss the character in some of the adaptations and the name of a restaurant, for example. Again, these are not the primary topic of this article.
COMMONNAME then uses multiple paragraphs to describe cases in which common names "Wikipedia uses as article titles instead of a more elaborate, formal, or scientific alternative" are defined. This is the chief motivation for the 2006 move and current objection to this move request. It is not however applicable, as the examples then given at the policy all describe shortened names or layman's terms for longer or unlikely to be recognized names, not embellished names used in later adaptations of a published work.
COMMONNAME concludes:
The ideal title for an article will also satisfy the other criteria outlined above; ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more common. For example, tsunami is preferred over the arguably more common, but less accurate tidal wave.
Conjecture is the only basis used in arguments here that claim Mad Hatter is arguably more common. They have the feel of "I always thought it was the Mad Hatter" and "people are used to Mad Hatter". This is again the result of not focusing on the subject at hand, which is Carroll's character, not the secondary topics of characters found in later adaptations.
These arguments, while understandable, are misguided and in opposition to a consistent encyclopedic treatment of the characters in Carroll's Alice library. In agreement with the nominator, I conclude by asking that an administrator move this article to the consensus title The Hatter over the redirect and redirect the commonly used but inaccurate current title. Sswonk (talk) 14:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Rebuttal of the opposing application of WP:COMMONNAME

message: I am confused. In this article, you claim that the inspiration for this character is probably Theophilus Carter. Yet, in other articles on Wikipedia, this is claimed to be Roger Crab. He even has his own page! Kateab (talk) 00:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Roger Crab

message: I've removed Channel Chasers 2: The Great Escape because it doesn't exist. This is the only source I could find for it and as you can see it's just an idea for an episode for a fake cartoon. 74.192.136.97 (talk) 16:28, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Channel Chasers 2: The Great Escape

message: ...but I don't have a citation, unfortunately, because it is proposed by someone I know: "They both have quills." Flipping Mackerel (talk) 01:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: She adds: "They are both inky." Amazing. Flipping Mackerel (talk) 01:17, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Another answer...

message: In the Popular culture references section the Tim Burton movie section is seriously overlong. That material belongs in the article about the movie if anywhere. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 06:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tim Burton movie reference overlong