Talk:Bexleyheath

message: Bexleyheath has a position within both London and Kent. Both are important for any understanding of the town today. I am not taking sides in the debate about counties, the ABC can do that, but it cannot be disputed that Bexleyheath is in the historic county of Kent, a fact that has a significant bearing on the town and population today. This alone justifies reference to Kent at the start of the article and does not contradict any WP policies. The awkward situation regarding what is and is not a county is an unfortunate result of ambiguity developed over time. It means there is no simple one line description of where Bexleyheath, or numerous other towns, actually are. Better to spell it out in several statements rather than choose one and exclude the others. Doing the latter would be doing a dis-service to the intent of wikipedia.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You could say the exact same thing about Woolwich, Greenwich or Lewisham. Justgravy (talk) 20:06, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

text: Worth mentioning for anyone reading this that Riteinit is indefinitely blocked for sockpuppetry. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:32, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  London or Kent 

message: @Southlondoneye  I can see what you are trying to do both here with Bexleyheath and elsewhere, but you are IMO on a hiding to nothing. You cannot standardise the whole of London in this way because London is not a standardised entity. One of the latest way of catagorising London might be to create different 'districts' but that is simply a administrative exercise. Bexleyheath, the subject of this article, is a town, not a district. It gives its name to the district you refer to but does not change its status as a town.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 11:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The term town is a specific categorisation for which Bexleyheath does not qualify. Despite sometimes colloquially being referred to as such, it is not a 'town'. Stylistic consistency dictates that articles for neighbourhoods in Inner and Outer London refer to them as districts, hence the necessity of the change. Southlondoneye (talk) 08:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

text: Once again, the term town is a specific categorisation for which Bexleyheath does not qualify. Despite sometimes colloquially being referred to as such, it is not a 'town'. Stylistic consistency dictates that articles for neighbourhoods in Inner and Outer London refer to them as districts, hence the necessity of the change. Southlondoneye  —Preceding undated comment added 12:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Southlondoneye, could you provide a link to the discussion in which the consensus for this terminology was reached? Maybe that would help convince others... Jdcooper (talk) 16:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: A discussion was started here on 29 April. That might help with consensus (or lack of it). Carcharoth (talk) 14:56, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Town or District 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I thought my deletion might be disputed. I saw that comment you quote from the DM reference about his 'return home to Bexleyheath' but chose to disregard it. This was because 1/ There was no elaboration: he could have been renting a place for a couple of months or staying with a friend, which doesn't really count as being a local resident b/ I had a quick look elsewhere and could not find any other references to his living in Bexleyheath c/ I too am a little concerned about not believing anything the DM publishes, but the WP guide/consensus that I linked to is pretty clear that the DM is unreliable and in nearly all cases should not be used as a reliable source. To me that means that the claim that he is a resident is uncited and can therefore be removed, especially as I looked elsewhere for another citation and could not find one. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 00:35, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that quote is ambiguous. It's true that he may have since moved, but I'm sure if he was staying with a friend it would be phrased in a different way. It requires imagination to think they are referring anything other than his home! I would be happy to change the wording to reflect that he might not still live there. However, you are right (from cursory glance) that there are no other references to Bexleyheath. I found references to him living in Keston, Vauxhall, and "south west London". Short of anything clearer saying he used to live in Bexleyheath I guess it makes sense to leave him off the list for the time being. Jdcooper (talk) 01:10, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Resident Haye - Daily Mail - etc

message: According to Wikiproject London Guidelines nowhere should be described as “Greater” only “London”. People have recently been making a mockery of the Wikiproject and I for one shall not stand for it. I just wanted to make that clear here.Justgravy (talk) 16:30, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you give a link to the guideline that you're referring to here? All I can find is WP:LONDONNAMES, which only says to avoid the word "Greater" when naming a list article. --Lord Belbury (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes exactly. So you're happy to have a contradiction between list articles and other entities?Justgravy (talk) 18:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: So it's not in the guidelines. A consensus to phrase list-article titles WP:CONCISEly doesn't seem at odds with how best to describe where Bexleyheath and Crayford are, so you're right, I wouldn't object if they were phrased differently. --Lord Belbury (talk) 19:11, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: A credible editor would not stand for such contradiction in their encyclopedia. This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about, and you expect me to think that Wikipedia is not institutionally biased...Justgravy (talk) 21:28, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  London / Greater London 

message: I am opening a discussion here about having the historic county in the lead of an article. Roger 8 Roger suggests there is a guideline about it, but all I can really find that is concrete (i.e. not in a small nutshell which says to be cautious about doing it) are discussions which generally oppose what they are trying to do:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(places)/Archive_1Justgravy (talk) 14:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_settlements#Lead says that the article lead for a UK settlement should "normally cover" the historic county. Putting it in the WP:FIRSTSENTENCE seems excessive, though. --Lord Belbury (talk) 15:39, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There's your guideline link above JG. You have seen that before though. I am reasonably neutral about where precisely in the lead Kent should be mentioned, but being mentioned is certainly necessary due to the reasonably significant influence being in Kent has on the town. For other places further into GL, that are also in the HC of Kent, such as Lewissham, that influence is (much) less and so IMO there is a case for not mentioning Kent in the lead, as the guidelines contemplate. Incidentally, a better place to expand on this Kent-London debate is not in History but in a Local Govt section. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:48, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I have seen it before, but I fail to see where your argument lies in this, could you please provide quotes from it in your argument. You keep saying that places like Bexleyheath have "significant influence" from Kent whereas places like Lewisham have "much less" influence, however I do not agree with this and would ask you to please prove it.Justgravy (talk) 22:37, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Slightly off topic, but still pretty relevant here, within Riteinit's rant lies the nub of where, IMO, the underlying problem lies. The reasoning goes - 1/ Historic counties were formed as admin areas 2/ Therefore when admin areas are altered so are the HCs 3/ Therefore historic counties were once extant areas but they are no longer. This rigid reasoning pervades throughout the wiki approach to UK geography and the minds of many people, such as JG and Riteinit. See Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/Guide The flaw in the reasoning is at least twofold - where counties all originally created as admin areas? (Kent was a kingdom), and even if they were all originally set up as admin areas, over time the HCs had taken on different roles which made them at least partly seperate from admin areas. Trying to remove this mindset from the UK Geog Project and make all the necessary guideline alterations is where the real problem lies, not whether Bexleyheath is in Kent or London. Until that happens edit wars like this one will keep occurring. (My comments are not trying to steer the topic in another direction). Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:47, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: What Roger 8 Roger is missing here is that Wikipedia has long taken the stance that historic counties do not exist and/or are not relevant, especially in the lead of articles of this nature. Roger is clutching to a very small nutshell which reads: "This page in a nutshell: Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution." They are trying to claim historic counties are both, with no proof whatsoever. Furthermore, they are also trying to split hairs by placing such areas into 2 groups, one which satisfies this criteria (according to him) and one which doesn't. This is purely based on their own judgement. These recent changes to such articles should not be allowed to stand and a great many other editors agree... Justgravy (talk) 13:05, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: As noted above Wikipedia:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_settlements#Lead explicitly says that historic counties are relevant here: that guidelines says that the article lead for a UK settlement should "normally cover [...] the historic county (if in England or Wales and if different from current county)". If you think London (or parts of London) should be an exception to this, that's better discussed at WikiProject UK geography or WikiProject London so that the same consensus can be established and applied across all relevant articles. --Lord Belbury (talk) 13:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I have tried to avoid getting into this debate because, frankly, life is too short, but Justgravy, are you aware that people in LB Bexley have retained Kent as their address, despite being in Greater London administratively? And many retain Kent phone numbers. The whole area is in both Kent and Greater London, which explains the different treatment by different administrative channels. Jdcooper (talk) 13:54, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: In what way have they "retained Kent as their address"? What you might not be aware of is that the The Royal Mail removed postal counties from all UK addresses way back in 2000. You might also not be aware that the Royal Mail explicitly states "Each address is therefore not necessarily a geographically accurate description of where a property is located". The same argument can be applied to phone numbers as well. These are private organisations dividing places up to suit themselves and their business needs. They are not trying to tell people where they live and neither do they want to.Justgravy (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: My address has always been "Bexleyheath, Kent". But my point was not that those or any other organisation are the arbiters of geography, but that there are clearly vestiges of the historic counties visible in the borough now. I really find it difficult to understand how this is such a controversial issue. Jdcooper (talk) 23:14, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

text: @Jdcooper No your address WAS "Bexleyheath, Kent" until 2000, as it clearly says here "According to the Royal Mail, the former postal county data no longer forms part of postal addresses" therefore, your address is XX XXXXXX Road/Street/Avenue etc., Bexleyheath, DA6/7 XXX and has been since 2000. What a great deal of people do not know is that once upon a time, when Postcodes were first created, Bexleyheath was actually part of SE but was removed again a short while later. I have been trying to find information on why places like Bexleyheath were removed from this, but there is very little information regarding it. "vestiges of the historic counties visible in the borough now" I'm afraid you have lost me there? It is a controversial issue because a great many people have no clue where they live!Justgravy (talk) 18:01, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

text: @Roger 8 Roger Please read my response to Jdcooper above. In addition to this, there are many cases where the historic county of an area contradicts the RM's former Postal County. For example Tatsfield whose historic county is Surrey, but it's former postal county is Kent.Justgravy (talk) 18:01, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: JG, you have not addressed my point. AFAIK, RM sorting addresses are postcode based, as I said and as you have repeated. RM has allowed HCs to be added to the adress even though RM does not use them, making historic counties officially acknowledged by RM. If someone wrote an adress as 1020 Avenue Rd, Bexleyheath, Greater London, DA33 6HT, that would be wrong, because GL is not recognised by RM as forming part of the adresss, unlike HCs. This point about official recognition is extremely important for reasons I am not sure you understand, which is why you are following the wrong line. Yes, Kent in an address relates to where the postal centre is, which is Dartford, but that is another topic. 'Many people have no clue where they live'? We agree! Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:20, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I have addressed all your points. You didn't even acknowledge my point that in 1856 when the London Postal District was first created Bexleyheath, and other outlying areas of London, were within it. Back to your point, If by “allow” you mean “ignore” and/or “do not care” then yes they do. But in my book allowing something and ignoring / not caring about something are different. Why don’t you ask the Royal Mail yourself if you’re so adamant that Historic Countiess are officially recognised by them? You will find that the Royal Mail does not care what you put in an address after the Post Town. You could put Bexleyheath, The Moon for all they care! “This point about official recognition is extremely important for reasons I am not sure you understand, which is why you are following the wrong line” what exactly are you trying to say here? Most of your arguments are just statements with no proof. You keep saying the Royal Mail “allows” and “officially acknowledges” Historic Counties, prove it!Justgravy (talk) 20:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Justgravy, he cant because they dont. RM will let you write whatever you want on the letter, so long as it gives the key details - that doesnt mean they officially endorse it, its just they dont care and they cant stop you. You could write "Rainham, Kent" to an RM postcode and itd still deliver correctly to the right Rainham - itll just annoy the local postman at worst. Unfortunately Roger 8 Roger has a habit of doing this to a LOT of pages relating to locations and incorrectly describing them to readers. Someone posted an order for information above, and really the sub should universally be converted to this to be consistent - as it stands, this page doesnt follow that. Other areas are having similar issues where trolls as part of a fringe group pushing for recognition of historic counties are trying to edit wikipedia pages to reflect their political beliefs - hell ive just noticed Romford was attacked a few days ago when i was looking up the style used on other pages. Its probably worth this page is looked at again, and the first line edited to show a clear priority of information Garfie489 (talk) 16:18, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historic County in Lead 

message: Why is this page still locked down?
:Why not register and all will be revealed? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 00:49, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Unlock

message: See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_settlements#Historical_county. MRSC (talk) 06:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical county

message: As per the link above, we do not say, in wikivoice, that a place remains within a historic county in present tense. Bexleyheath is not in Kent. Historical counties are historical, and this is the guideline per WP:UKCOUNTIES and WP:UKTOWNS. I have removed the reinsertion of: Bexleyheath is in the historic county of Kent. This text is not complaint with the guidelines. It is also, incidentally, unsourced. It is certainly true that Bexleyheath was in Kent, although the sentence on its own is then a little random. I would support text that describes its history, explaining that it was in Kent until the creation of Greater London. This would preferably be a fuller history than just that sentence. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:08, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There appears to be guarded consensus of improving an article body before mentioning HCs in the lead. We now get to another problem that quite frankly has always bewildered me because it is promoted by clearly educated editors. There are three points to this. One, do we refer to a place as is or was in HC X? I thought there was wakening consensus that it depends on the context and does not depend on the current existence or not of HCs. Two, the current existence of HCs. To me there is absolutely no ambiguity at all that they have never been formally abolished (in fact they have been formally kept after their local govt role was removed - see 1889 LG act). Any treatment of them as being no longer in existence can therefore only be because they have become obsolete. That will depend on which place we are talking about because there are levels of obsolete-ness. Three, and perhaps the most baffling, is simply the English language, grammar and meaning. Is/was are both perfectly acceptable: any confusion arises from the reader's ignorance which here we ignore because we must assume a reasonable level of educated understanding. Similarly, saying Bexleyheath is in GL and the HC of Kent, is not in any way confusing. It is no different from saying London is in England and Europe. The solution come up with has been to say 'Bexleyheath was historically in Kent' which IS ambiguous, making it poor English. The word 'historically' does not mean 'historic', they are subtly different. The adjective historic when referring to counties, in the term 'historic counties' can be confusing, even to slightly more educated people. It does not mean 'in the past and not the present: it means established a long time ago and seeped in historical detail. I note the govt refers to HCs as 'traditional counties'. My guess is that is because it removes any ambiguity that the govt is taking the position that HCs do not currently exist. The guidelines say 'we do not take the view that the HC still exist with their previous borders '.  What on earth is that supposed to mean? I am speechless! Does it mean they do in fact exist, but with different borders, which is the closest interpretation of that sentence, or that they no longer exist and their previous borders are also no longer in existence? That clumsy sentence would not pass GCSE let alone A level English. Still with English usage, with Bexleyheath, we must not say 'Bexleyheath is not in Kent' without qualification. Even if the consensus default area of a place is its current ceremonial or local govt area, use of that sentence is very ambiguous, if not simply wrong. It is not our fault the word 'county' has many meanings. It is not our job to decide what the word county should mean, which is what that sentence is doing - original research. It is however, our job to remove or explain ambiguity if it exists. How that can be done is rarely discussed here. Whatever we do it must not be to take a definite stand or create further ambiguity about the meaning of the word 'county' Please note with the Derry/Londonderry debate, consensus reached is that one is used for the city and the other for the county, with no decision taken on which is the correct name. That is how consensus should be used, not to override WP policy that statements must be backed by RSSs. (With 'counties', RSSs are hugely variable and ambiguous, so we work with that ambiguity and do not interpret it which is OR and which is what is happening.) Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:18, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bexleyheath is not in Kent 

message: I have left the places of worship section asis for now, although added a source. I am not sure what to do with this though. Bexleyheath has some notable churches that are no longer extant (a grand congregational church for instance, and one of the first Elim Pentecostal assemblies) but this is just a current list, which is fine as that is similar to the schools list. But then, it is only churches, so what about other places of worship for other faiths? Should there be inclusion criteria for the list? Such as the existence of a wikipedia page? Or should the list stress architecture. Would be interested in the thoughts of other editors on this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:12, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There aren't wikipedia pages for any of them, nor should there be I guess, so I think that would be too restrictive. If there are notable churches that no longer exist, they could be added to a separate list or the same list with a "(No longer exists)" explanatory note, or included in the "History" section. Both seem reasonable. But the list should definitely include other faiths, why not? as for architecture, I guess we could include any information in a table, if any WP:RS can be easily found (ie. a book about local churches). But one could also argue that that would be unnecessary trivia. I don't have strong feelings either way on that question. Jdcooper (talk) 20:27, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your thoughts. I will extend then, rather than redact. I will see what sources I can find. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:35, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I have ascertained that the congregational church was demolished in 1988 and replaced by a new build URC after a merger of the church with the Presbyterians. The old church can be seen here , but at this stage I don't think this is notable information, although I am pretty sure I have read mention of it in a history of Bexleyheath. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Places of Worship