Talk:Civil Cooperation Bureau

message: Visit to Australia ? 
Yes or no?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.109.12.188 (talk) 21:29, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

message: The following edits by Phase4 made 6 May 2007, 14:36 have been reverted:
* Removed Craig Williamson's name from the list of associates - no sources cited and several unproven theories on who killed Palme see these theories
* Donald Acheson reverted to Donald Acheson because the existing wikipedia entry refers to a different Donald Acheson Suidafrikaan 18:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough on Craig Williamson: he's been reinserted under the "See also" section. On Donald Acheson, the TRC spells his name  Aitchison. Maybe we should do a disambig on the Acheson spelling?Phase4 23:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits reverted 

message: Although Jeugkrag translates literally as Youth Power the official English name of the organisation was Youth for South Africa.Suidafrikaan 15:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Youth Power

message: Mandela first used the words third force in 1990, 4 yrs before he became president. see http://www.csvr.org.za/papers/papolv90.htm
The CCB was not the "third arm of the Third Force, alongside Vlakplaas C1 and the Special Tasks projects". That implies an official recognition of the slang term - and that the unproven allegation that there was a Third Force was true.203.80.61.102 (talk) 02:20, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Third Force

message: I agree. I would suggest the following:
===change 1===
Simplify the introduction:
The South African Civil Cooperation Bureau (CCB) was a covert, special forces organisation[1] during the apartheid era. 
===change 2===
Remove the following because it is already in the establishment section (but retain footnote 2 as per change 3), 
that had the Minister of Defence Gen Magnus Malan's authority and establishment aims [2], similar to those of the British Special Operations Executive SOE, to
    * Infiltrate and penetrate the enemy; and
    * Gather Information;
    * Disrupt the enemy.
===change 3===
Since these are clearly contentious, replace the following…
No assassinations were approved however rogue individuals operating within possibly under the guise of the CCB and other covert units operated beyond the stipulations of the Fourth Geneva Convention, resulting in the assassinations of non-combatants and civilians such as sociologist David Webster and Namibian activist Anton Lubowski; the attempted killing of cleric Frank Chikane and an unsuccessful assault on ex-Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari.
… with this under the Truth and Reconciliation Commission heading, using your footnote 2 as mentioned in change 2 
In testifying before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission General Malan submitted that no assassinations were approved , implying that some individuals had operated outside of their mandate. 
===change 4===
To accomodate change 3, rename the heading Truth and Reconciliation Commission finding to…
Truth and Reconciliation Commission
--Suidafrikaan (talk) 10:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've implemented change 4, tidied up the intro and quoted the evidence given to the TRC by Magnus Malan.PJHaseldine (talk) 14:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Geneva convetion changes

message: To accomodate change 3, rename the heading Truth and Reconciliation Commission finding to…
Truth and Reconciliation Commission
--Suidafrikaan (talk) 10:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've implemented change 4, tidied up the intro and quoted the evidence given to the TRC by Magnus Malan.PJHaseldine (talk) 14:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: change 4

message: Suidafrikaan,
I agree with all except 
1. the positioning of the aims - it really should form part of the intro - it details the reason for the existence of the organisation.
2. The exclusion ,of the similarity to the British WW2 SOE, in the introduction, would not be reasonable. The aims and even the structures were very clearly similar - just look at the equipment of the SOE on their page, poisons, exploding pens, concealed landmines, bombs and assassination devices - in an extraordinary manner. 
I concur and agree with your suggestions; if you would consider my ones above - I think we are there!
I think we may have much ground to cover in the future -
Kind regards
BSRCR 10:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  CCB2 Changes 

message: The introduction to this article has become an apology for the actions of for Magnus Malan and the CCB. It stands currently as follows:
The South African Civil Cooperation Bureau (CCB) was a covert, special forces organisation[1] during the apartheid era that operated under the authority of Defence Minister General Magnus Malan. According to General Malan, the CCB's three objectives — comparable to those of the British Special Operations Executive (SOE) — were:
    * to infiltrate and penetrate the enemy;
    * to gather Information; and
    * to disrupt the enemy.
In his testimony before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, Malan declared that he had never issued an order or authorised an order for the assassination of anybody, and that the killing of political opponents of the government never formed part of the brief of the South African Defence Force.[2]
Why is this a problem? A simple comparison. The article on the SS, while it treats that organisation as a historical fact mentions explicitly in the third paragraph that "The SS was responsible for the vast majority of war crimes perpetrated under the Nazi regime...".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.202.166 (talk) 20:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: I have to disagree. Introduction is right and appears factually supported and correct. No different than IDF - Israeli Special Forces Units of same type....
I don't think it is possible to say that the CCB was responsible for the majority of the war related crimes either. They were too young as a unit and had not even established a proper platform.  SayeretMatkal (talk) 21:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction Looks Just Right and Factual 

message: The POV lodged in July last year by "unknown" has had no support - and the banner is removed BSRCR 20:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This POV dispute has no proven validity 

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