Talk:Ieuan ab Owain Glyndŵr

message: I certainly have never heard of Ieuan and have more than a few doubts about this article. Neither Ieuan or his three sons are mentioned in R. R. Davies authoritative and exhaustive study, The Revolt of Owain Glyndŵr (OUP, 1995). Peter Bartrum does exist (I assume the gentleman is still alive), and is the recognised doyen of medieval Welsh genealogical studies. I suspect this may be a case of getting a bit over enthusiastic and uncritical rather than a deliberate hoax. As it's such a startling claim it most definitely needs a reliable source and should not stand as it is. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoax or not? 

message: For those unfamiliar the work of Peter Bartrum is being put on to a data base by fellows of the College of Aberystwyth (University of Wales). I refer you to this; 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/6106074.stm
This process is ongoing. Peter Bartrum has researched Welsh genealogies since 1929. I was personally emailed some scanned copies of parts of his manuscripts which I am interested in by the University of Wales at Aberystwyth which mention the sons of Owain Glyndwr. Please if you doubt you may get in touch with the college and ask to speak to her. Among the sons detailed in Bartrum's work is Ieuan ab Owain Glyndwr, referred to as a bastard son, who had children of his own and grand children. That is where Peter Bartrums research appears to end, so therefore, it is entirely possible that their are male line descendants of the sons or grandsons of Ieuan ab Owain Glyndwr and therefore heirs to the line of Glyndwr and by extension that of Rhodri Mawr waiting to be discovered. If anyone has any further doubts I would happily forward them a scanned copy of the page from Bartrums original manuscript. Furthermore, according to tradition it was this Ieuan who proclaimed a free state in Abergavenney in 1404. This page on Ieuan ab Owain Glyndwr is not a hoax page, it is potentially of significant importance to Welsh royal research, so please do not delete it. If Enaidmawr would like me to email him/her the pages of Bartrum's work that I have please email me at jfrankcom@btinternet.com James Frankcom 14:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen the scans of Bartrum's work kindly provided by James Frankcom. I ask that any possible move to delete this page be put on hold as further references are sought particularly regarding the university's plans. Thank you. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly that would count as OR and I believe the article should still be deleted. Abtract (talk) 00:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why the sudden urgent rush to delete? This is most curious and I wonder what your motives are for demanding a deletion so abruptly. Surely if the sources used by Bartrum in his original work can be referred to on this page then it is properly referenced. Nevertheless this Ieuan ab Owain Glyndwr is a person of historical significance and clearly also of public interest. The fact that he existed and that this is news to many people makes it the sort of page Wikipedia should be proud of. 86.146.107.76 (talk) 09:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry but the article constitutes OR imho ... please read that policy. It would be quite misleading to retain an article that simply cannot be verified. Abtract (talk) 10:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference of this page should read; Welsh  Genealogies A.D. 300 - 1400, P. C. Bartrum; Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 5; Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 5 (A) (pages 32 and 67). I have amended the page accordingly. This book is available for public inspection at the Welsh National Library in Aberystwyth and the British Library and will be online in December 2009. I have amended the wiki entry accordingly. I hope this is now sufficient and threats to delete this page will be rescinded. James Frankcom (talk) 13:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I will leave this for 48 hours now the article is referenced, and if there are no objections I will then remove the erroneous "hoax" tag, the "references" tag and the "original research" tags.James Frankcom (talk) 13:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But that is not a published book. Abtract (talk) 14:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a published book and can, as I said, because of its large size (you can buy a copy for £950.00) be viewed at the National Library of Wales or at the British Library. I recommend you do a search online and you will find it. The Bartrum Project is to put this book online.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by James Frankcom (talk • contribs) 16:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Who are the publishers? Is it in English? Abtract (talk) 16:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sure you could have found that out for yourself, anyway you can buy a copy of that book in printed form here: . As I said, that book which is enormous is in the process of being put online.James Frankcom (talk) 16:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

text: "Is it in English?" I thought the title would clarify that! This is regarded as the single most authorative survey of the field. It's published by the University of Wales Press. As it costs a small fortune I don't have a copy and neither would my local libraries. I concur that the article should not be deleted but given a fair "breathing period". Enaidmawr (talk) 00:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK life's too short to worry but I remain highly sceptical about this. Abtract (talk) 00:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  your scepticism is based on what grounds? i am prepared to publish a screen print of the original here but i do not own the copyright and clearly you are not qualified to judge it. Now that this article has been referenced and that this reference has been viewed by two independent parties I don't believe you have grounds for any continued "scepticism" considering you have never even heard of the source we are both refering to which would be common knowledge to anyone who has actually studied this subject. Unless there is someone other than the user 'Abtract' with reasonable grounds for objection I propose that this matter should be closed within 48 hours of the posting dated 6th December 86.146.107.76 (talk) 03:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: James your attitude does you no credit. My scepticism arises from the fact that the documents being quoted are not available for checking (in Welsh and cost £1k) and are the work of one man 30 years ago (a lot has happened in genealogy since then). Now I am not saying this isn't all perfectly correct but I am saying there must remain real doubt until this [primary source] has been reviewd by commentators and becomes more widely accepted. Until then IMHO it should not be included in wkp as "fact" (as it was when I first stumbled accross the article, but as speculation - albeit now with references. Abtract (talk) 10:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry that the article was not properly referenced from the start and I am also sorry for exibiting my annoyance in my previous reply to you, however please try to empathise with the strong sense of annoyance someone who has studied this area for more than a decade would feel if firstly they were accused of writing a "hoax" article (which implies that the author (e.g. Me) is some sort of liar, fantasist etc). Then once that is cleared up I am accused of writing it all myself (Original Work) and that therefore this is not dependable either. Finally when the true source is declared, shared and agreed (PC Bartrum) then you have the unbelievable arrogance to suggest HE is an unreliable source "the work of one man 30 years ago". Considering you have not even heard of this source and demonstrably have a limited knowledge in this subject which you are seeking to edit it is entirely unacceptable for you to suggest the work of Peter Bartrum is unreliable (it is used as the basis for many works on Welsh genealogy during the 20th Century) and I hope you understand the sense of exasperation and annoyance I felt. I believe that if the University of Wales considers it "fact" then you have no reasonable grounds to state it is not when you are obviously not well versed in the subject. For your information the documents ARE available for checking, go to the British Library, register as a Reader and look them up.James Frankcom (talk) 12:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So you say. However WP requires more than your sayso or even faxed documents to another editor. more later Abtract (talk) 16:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I sincerely hope this argument can be defused and put to rest. I acknowledge yout well argued view points. I don't welcome the...how can I say this...threat? to "undoubtedly lead to a block" ye whose first ever article was a defense of the so-called "cabal" etc. Nevertheless I accept and acknowledge your points. I was never personally attacking YOU. I just thought your continued scepticism of the source which is acknowledged by the national library in wales as entirely dependable was a bit much from someone who had no specialist enquiry in this area. I want to empathise there was never any personal attack. I am sure you are very nice LOL James Frankcom (talk) 23:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK apology accepted; let's move on. Abtract (talk) 09:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peter Bartrum and University of Wales (Aberystwyth) 

message: Wikipedia is no place for speculation or comments by editors. Abtract (talk) 12:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not "speculation" it was based on an understanding of the dates when the main Welsh royal houses are considered to have expired and the fact by Ieuan's existance (and also that of his sons and grandsons) that their lives would have extended beyond the acknowledged dates of the extinction of the other royal houses and logically must represent among the latest surviving descendants of Rhodri Mawr.James Frankcom (talk) 17:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at this from Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C secondary.2C and tertiary sources "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should: only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source." and this from the same page "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors". And then from lower down "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." This last quote in particular precludes the application of "logic" by an editor. I have no opinion as to the truth of your claim but it is only valid with checkable, reputable citations. Abtract (talk) 00:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Speculative comments

message: It may be worth reading  this assuming the reference is to a Welsh language text. Abtract (talk) 10:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As aforementioned it is NOT a Welsh language text. The title of the work is "Welsh Genealogical Tracts" which being in English should serve as an indication James Frankcom (talk) 16:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Welsh language citations

message: What is the central claim that Abtract finds dubious? I can see these books (Welsh Genealogies and Reports on Manuscripts in the Welsh Language) in the local university library catalogue. If I go in and look at them, what am I looking for? A printed reference to Ieuan being Ieuan ap Owain Glyndwr, or to a possibility of this? Or to the existence of Maredudd, Robert and Iorwerth ap Ieuan? Or what? Telsa (talk) 09:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: [This] is my removal of speculation, as was [this] earlier. There were other attempts to say much the same thing. The article looked like [this] when I first spotted it. Abtract (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh. I see. Well, when I get a chance, I'll look, but I have to admit that I see a great difference between "these sons are recorded; their progeny, if any, are unknown" (which is the sort of thing I assumed was being queried) and "there is a possibility that descendants exist today, the true meibion Glyndwr". There are all sorts of possibilities in the world. We're supposed to be including facts. Telsa (talk) 12:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The comment about the true meibion Glyndwr was, as I have previously conceded, unnecessary and is no longer in the piece. Nevertheless Abtract has continued to dispute the references, first saying that they are written in Welsh, when they are not, then saying it is original research by me, which it is not, then suggestring it was just the work of "one man" (e.g. Bartrum) when he is not only the single most authorative source on this subject but his work was based on previous earlier sources, not to mention an awful lot of academic scrutiny at the University of Wales. I am now totally exasperated and don't actually know what it is he is disputing NOW as the article stands. The source for this article is PC Bartrum - Welsh genealogical Tracts: 1400-1500 plate 68 (Bleddyn ap Cynfyn 5(a)) - a copy of which was faxed to me by the fellows working on the Bartrum project (the original is a very large and expensive book) and I would be glad to forward the page to you for your inspection James Frankcom (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

text: left|thumb|150px|The relevant page from P C Bartrum James Frankcom (talk) 12:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no objection to the article as it stands though I am doubtful if references to manuscripts are strictly accordance with guidelines. I do object to your continued insertion of speculation the most recent of which was "Presuming that the sources are correct this would make John ap Gruffudd Goch ap Maredudd ab Ieuan ab Owain Glyndŵr and his descendants potential claimants to the title Prince of Wales as asserted by his great-great-grandfather, Owain IV in 1400". You seem to have taken this very personally whereas all I am seeking is an article that contains a little more than "there is a possibility that", "thought to have", "presuming" and "this would make" speculative statements. You are obviously a bright guy, why not concentrate on citable facts rather than speculation? I apologise if any of my remarks appeared to be a personal attack on you; that was not my intention. Abtract (talk) 13:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting though that page may be, it is hardly a published source. Abtract (talk) 13:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh but it really is.... I have told you the name of the book again and again and even found copies on Amazon to buy and told you which libraries hold it. Just because it is written in his own hand does not mean it is not a published book. I really hope we can wind this whole thing down. You know one of the things that really gets me is that I have my real name on here, where as you just use an alias, what is your name? Also, I have contributed lots of articles to this site over the years whereas you just criticise other peoples work and are not even an administrator? It just seems a bit much James Frankcom (talk) 13:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah well. Did you ever live in Godalming? Abtract (talk) 13:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What should I find?