Talk:Vladimir Putin/Archive 1

message: Currently or all time?
-G
Probably Hitler and Stalin got higher approval ratings because as in Russia now, they had control of the mass media.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.253.29.69 (talk) 04:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Putin has the highest [voter] approval rating of anyone in the world"

message: Does Putin ever smile a genuine smile? ..or even better, laugh? Any link to a happy picture of him?
:I can't believe it, but I found one: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Img/923/0004107.jpg --Scott 22:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to have nightmares now. Craig Ponnan 05:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Smile?

message: I do not think he was preceded by Tony Blair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin#External_links_and_references
13:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tony Blair? 

message: There should really be at least *something* in the article about the sharply divergent views of him in Western media: dictator or democrat, strong leader or weak puppet. If you're a native English speaker (or just better than me) and can come up with something that doesn't violate NPOV, please add it. 82.83.132.165 23:05, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it absolutely necessary to rubberstamp him with a cliche? Do you think it will help to understand what he is doing? Even without this the article looks like a sophomore essay in politology. What really missing is descriptions of Putin's actions, i.e., facts are missing. Only newspaper sensations are mentioned. So, why don't you ask instead what did Putin do for Russian economy so far besides the arrest of Mikhail Khodorkovsky?  What is more important to know: what Putin does or what Western tabloids write about him? Mikkalai 01:53, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

text: I agree with john. We can stay NPOV and mention that some aspects of Putin's politics are highly criticized on the western opinion. This is not tabloid, this is just facts. For exemple, the way he handles the Chechnya "problem", the way he tries to control the Russian press (see the latest repression on the journalists that have not covered the Beslan hostage crisis in way that has pleased him), ... I'm far from Russia, and I think that, if we may be subject to anti-Putin propaganda, Russian people may be also subject to pro-Putin propaganda. So I guess that without entering into any dispute, we could mention the way US/Europe sees Putin. If someone could do that, it will be great. Otherwise, I will go back to my favorite newspapers... Lvr 14:57, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is Putin? 

message: Once again what I already mentioned at GW Bush discussion page. Here (and then US-Russian summit) are some photos from Bush-Putin summit in Slovenia in 2001. The photos are not really public domain but may be published freely if the source and photographer are mentioned. So if you like them and would like to include them into an article, go ahead...
: There's a wealth of damning information on Putin that isn't even touched on here.  To name but a few things:
:- Putin's ruthless control of the media;
:- Mishandling of the budget (only tiny fracion of budget revenue goes to health and education, with disastrous and probably permanent consequences on life expectancy, literacy rates etc., while vastly more goes to the still over-sized military and police);
:- The circumstances surrounding Putin's rise to power - the "Yeltsin family"'s need to install a leader who would allow them to hold on to the vast fortunes they had amassed by pillaging state resources, thus making permanent and irreversable the catastrophic series of mass thefts from the people and capital flight which went on throughout the nineties.  Also allegations that the Chechnyan conflict was provoked by Putin (as FSB head) and the oligarchs propelling him to power in order to divert attention from the chasm of poverty, lawlessness, and decay which the country was slipping (as a direct result of the ruthless theft of those oligarchs), and to create the consequent atmosphere of fear, in which Putin could pose as a powerful, decisive figurehead, allowing him to rise from virtual anonymity to universal popularity and win an easy election; the strong evidence that the apartment bombings in Moscow and Volgodonsk, and the averted one in Ryazan (1999 I think) were orchestrated by the FSB to this end. 
:All of these things deserve a mention.
:Palefire 14 Sep 2004
::Cite your sources! Information means little if it is biased.  Also, the "ruthless control of the media"?  If you go to , and search "Putin", you will find many subtle snubs against him.  Last time I checked,".ru" meant that the site in question was Russian licensed/based. Dzerzhinsky 20:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note- Maybe those subtle snubs are allowed to make it seem as if the internet media isn't controled by the government.  It is possible to argue a lot of things about Putin both ways.  The only thing I have decided about Putin is that we don't really know what side he is on, besides his own. Dzerzhinsky 20:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos with GW Bush 

message: In the table: I put 'None' as the political party, just so people know there's no association (he's just a one-man propoganda machine, but let's not get into that)
In the bottom: I left the link, but I made the text say "prime minister of modern russia" to differentiate between the office held now and the office held before the communist revolution. 
  — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 17:50, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some changes 

message: "I looked the man in the eye. I was able to get a sense of his soul." by US President George W. Bush, June 16, 2001, evidently finding Putin to be trustworthy and straight forward. ???
What a naive *******t! Evidently? Can we really find out what politicians think of each other? Can we really trust their diplomatic speeches? You know, when some come country posesses a nuclear arsenal, and becoming more and more hostile to the West, and you're U.S. president, you just can't say "that ex-spy looks like a stupid duck". AlexPU
Isn't it kinda naive to take what a President says about his meeting with another President at face value? As you said - people are complicated. Bush might not mean what he said - but merely to impress the idea that Putin and he are close.
Also, George W. Bush probably said that to foster good relations... Relations that are now gone as Putin refuses to allow a resolution against Iran to be passed in the UN Security Council.  Russia, as a permanent member, has veto power. Dzerzhinsky 22:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How old are you, kids? 

message: Dear All,
A photo of President Putin in the KGB can be located at http://images.evrazia.org/images/putin-kgb3.jpg. Enjoy. Zscout370 01:50, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  KGB Photo 

message: What do yall think of it? Zscout370 14:36, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judo Section 

message: FYI: I uploaded a new photo of Putin, who is talking in this one. I personally think this is a better one, and it still comes from the website of the Russian Presidency. The earlier photo had Putin "looking stoned (in my POV)." Zscout370 (talk) 03:04, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Photo 

message: South and East Asian governments have a tradition of thinking about 'batches' of leaders based on their cohort.  I usually think of Vladimir Putin as part of the larger group of positive centrist politicians who have emerged: George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Spain's Zapatero, Hu Jin Tao and Junichiro Koizumi.  This perspective might be useful in contextualizing Russia under Putin in terms of its foreign relations against the backdrop of a world recently united by airplane and computer technology.McDogm--64.12.116.13 15:01, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you say Bush was a centrist? DanielCristofani 13:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that's interesting; and there's me thinking that extreme nationalism, conservative economic and social policies belonged to RIGHT and FAR RIGHT politicans' deluded visions. 82.176.196.155 15:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 90s Batch

message: There is a delicious portrait of the very inner workings of power:
It is of Russian President Vladimir Putin and champion Olympic Greco-Roman wrestler Alexander Karelin.
Karelin towers over Putin in a protective posture while Putin shows a hovering glee.
The "pinnicle" of society "needs" the more "base" elements for its existence.
Find it at: 
--Scroll1 22:43, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Power Personified. 

message: A common nickname for Putin in Russia is Iron fist Putin, which is an attempt to liken him to Stalin, I think it should be added to this article that many Russians liken him to the murderous despot.
: Where did you get this information?  I live in Russia but never heard such a nick from real local people. Believe me I'm not a person who likes Putin and I always woted against him, but let's not invent stupid nicknames for real people. I also think that he is definetely not the worst ruler of Russia, so let's think that he is the 1st step to a really good leader. MaxiMaxiMax 16:01, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Iron is not chugnny have no bloody clue what that is but what you have written in russian железный (which means iron) should translate into something like chelezni or something like that Deng 2005-11-30 02.50 CET
Just for fun: I heard that somebody named him "Наш железный Буратино" - "Our iron Buratino (Pinocchio)". Lucius
Right, I changed it. Sorry, I was thinking two different things at the same time, apparently. Kazak 02:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Not all of us speak Russian, please translate. Dzerzhinsky 20:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That guy said something about "'Putin-Iron Fist' Ha-Ha-Ha, what the nonsense :). No need to go to voffka.com, i.e. it's more fun here." ellol 22:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I've heared him nicked "ducky" (утёнок) and simply "pu" (пу) on russian boards, but that's all completely irelevant to the article! [user:User:Internazi|INTERNAZI] 21:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

text: This is random, but on Google Video, if you search "Buratino", you will find a music video of Putin.
Dzerzhinsky 20:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Putin's nickname

message: Cool, now Russian headlines read "American businessman presented Vladimir Putin with a diamond ring".
"American Oligarch presented a ring to Putin. Why?" 
Well Kraft decided it was a gift then :)
here is in English 
Opps, forgot to sign Gnomz007
*Its alright, we can ammend the article accordingly. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 30 June 2005 18:10 (UTC)
This paragraph was deleted - please see rationale in the discussion of the Second Term section. If others want to reintroduce it, perhaps you could offer a comment about how this story tells us something important about Putin - as it was, it read more like an "In Brief..." article from the sports section of a local US newspaper.
: At the moment the ring story appears in its own section titled "Small International Controversy". This seems pretty overblown as the "controversy" only lasted about two days. The section also smacks of POV as it highlights the speculation that Putin "bogarted" the ring and leaves out the fact that Kraft himself stated the ring was a gift. I'm going to clean this up and move it to the "Putin-related humor" section. Regardless, no encylopedia article not talking about weed has any business using "bogart" as a verb. Shame upon your house, whoever did that. --squirrel 12:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lol. "This would be fun, if it weren't so sad." ellol 11:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diamond ring 

message: I've cleaned up the article some to conform more to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, a much more balanced perspective has been created IMHO.  Tell me what you think. --Uthar Wynn 01 03:14, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think most edits were just rephrasing, I think proper attribution of opinions and theories would have helped more.Gnomz007 14:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV improvements 

message: He is a confirmed vandal. Some of his edits of this article was deliberate vandalism as well. His massive rewording is nothing but to hide his vandalisms. there is no reason to waste time and sift for pearls in his contrib. mikka (t) 20:56, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Uthar Wynn reverted 100% 

message: Please add how to say the name: Pútin or Putín?
:The first is correct. To be more detailed, correct pronunciation probably is p-oo-teen. ellol
:The corect pronunciation is Pútin, with both the U and the I as short vowels (the Russian language has no long vowels at all).Elvarg 14:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it has, like "o-ooooOO!" when seeing big booobs :-) mikka (t) 22:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol... ok...? BirdValiant 05:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Bush's alcoholic nickname for Putin, Pootie Poot links to this article, it should link to either alcoholic dementia, or to a list of Bushisms.
: I redirected it to the list of nicknames used by George W. Bush
in the 2004 presidential election putin got 92 percent of the vote in chechnya... which is impossible unless on the ballot it said "kill" instead of "vote for".
putin ripped off the election and is going to stay in power for a long time.
you have to feel so sorry for the U.S. people, when are they going to be free from crime and corruption in the government?
You have to feel sorry for the U.S. people, when are they going to be free from propaganda, ignorance, government control, feelings of agression against the entire world, imperialism, and militarism?   - Russian mafia
:Russia's domestic problems > USA's domestic problems. Sorry if the truth stings. 71.68.17.30 23:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pootie Poot should not link here 

message: I have just watched a weekly TV-program "Realnaya politika" on NTV channel. Major presenter is Gleb_Pavlovsky, 2 other people (Mr. Parker, and man with a nick "Mr. Montblanc") make shorter reports. Motto of the program is 'a program about real power'. It's a sort of analysises of major events concerning Russia (politics, economics, social life). The program considers troubles of Russia, ways out. It considers dynamics of world. What are we moving to, and what we have now.
Considering serious problems includes grains of humour. What is interesting, the program included 3 short (3-5 mins) plays (of Mr. Parker) in a style, seemingly derived from style of "Kukly". That is, puppets (computer animation, not real ones) represented major politics. Putin is the main protagonist; (an interesting detail is that head of "puppet" Putin is never shown). Plays are direct "inheritors" of Parker's "Vladimir Vladimirovich" series.
ellol 21:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And those guys say, that there is no free media in Russia... Liars, nobody else. I can't say that "Realnaya politika" is completely unbiased; it has an accent, yet every person has one. And except this program, I would name "Zerkalo" (mirror) with Nikolay Svanidze and "Postscriptum" with Alexey Pushkov. Yet i rarely watch TV. ellol 20:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And there's no free media in fact. That "Real Politics" program is nothing but promotion of Putin's ideas. And "Vladimir Vladimirovich" series are just humorous stories based on recent politic events in Russia. Then, you've just killing me saying that "Zerkalo" is a free progam. It's shown on "Russia" channel (it belongs directly to the government) and is like other programs on this channel. Pushkov's "Postscriptum" is another kind because TVC channel belongs to Moscow city government and it is not on good terms with Kremlin. vh16ru talk 15:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Guy, you are a maximalist. Programs are made by people, not by channels. And if sensible people freely express their point of view, it's interesting to hear them. ellol 07:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm afraid you don't understand a thing: if a TV program isn't in line with the position of the channel's chefs, it won't be started. That's evdent, i think // vh16ru talk 16:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putin-related humour — additions? 

message: Isn't the party rep in the submarine of the movie The Hunt for Red October named Vladimir Putin? --HJV 23:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fictional Appearances 

message: Are there any quotations any of you know of that were made by Putin, that don't have to do with terrorism and/or America?  I think the diversification of that section would be helpful. Picaroon9288 01:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotations 2 

message: Put a picture of him kissing that poor little boy.
:It's super-funny but not really relevant. JD79 13:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kissing The Boy

message: I tried to work there more than on year. But unfortunately, i had to come back because of my father illness. Soon i'll try to come back to Moscow, but suddenly i've noticed that my heart beats very fast and do not want to come back. I tried to analise, what's happening with me. I do not afraid of unemploiment, i don't afraid of the law, I am afraid of militia man. They can find any fact to get some money(mobile phone, golden rings and smth) that you've earned. (to be continued)
 shirin sozokbaeva
: Is Putin a militia man?
::No.  He is a former chekist, but he never worked for the militia. Dzerzhinsky 20:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am afraid of militia man in moscow than the skinheads. 

message: :Doesnt Putin play Go? -Ste|vertigo 05:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! FYI, how the problem is usually fixed: you click 'history', choose the last non-vandalized version, click 'edit' and save the page with the appropriate comment. ellol 06:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Doesnt Putin play [[Go (game)|Go]]?

message: See under: Prime Minister and first term as President
"Putin was caught..."69.6.162.160 02:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: User ellol and Ezhiki may work for the FSB. At least they use the same methods: They have forged the history of this article (so that it appeared that a person critical of Putin blanketed half of the page) for creating a reason to silence him.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.55.56.255 (talk • contribs).
:Ah, ain't I busted!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Beware!

message: This section should be turned into standalone leaf article, placed into :Category:In popular culture. It would make this page less awful. Pavel Vozenilek 15:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  This article has POV problems at it is--how about retaining a shred of credibility by removing the Putin humor section?  While we're at it, how about writing about the incredible controversy and suspicion that surrounds Putin instead of blowjobbing him as the greatest Russian ever?  Exeunt 12:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mind. Perhaps we could leave here 2-3 entries and move others to a standalone article. E.g., "Vladimir Vladimirovich", "We certainly would not want to have the same kind of democracy as they have in Iraq", one of images -- 'Lenin' or 'Dzerzhindsky'. ellol 15:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What do you mean? Controversy and suspicion among Western media and pro-Western liberals in Russia? Why not. This could go to 'Popular support' section. Just, I don't say all people support Putin. Of course no! About 70% do. And, imho. Putin is no great. He speaks right things, and tries to move the country in a sound direction. And people like it, in contrast to erratic policy of his predecessors. That's all. ellol 15:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Putin related humor" 

message: Why is Putin's name so gigantic on the top?  BirdValiant 08:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because he is so great, I suppose :)  Anyway, I fixed it.  Thanks for the notice.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fontsize

message: HE IS AN EVIL MAN !!!!! 21:11 November 26,2006
HE ORDEDERED THE KILLINGS OF THE RUSSIAN JOURNALIST AND THE FORMER SPY.
he is evil
Maybe i´m wrong! (UTC)Dave
MAYBE THE ANTICHRIST?
that´s too silly!
:As youngsters say, "Аццкий сотона жжот!" ellol 21:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: comment of 205.211.239.132

message: The section on "Family and personal life" was stuck between two political controversies, so I moved that up for organizational flow. And, there were two "Trivia" sections, so I merged them together. Carmela Soprano 23:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor reorganization

message: I still think my reference to Patriarch Alexius II as a former KGB agent DROZDOV was appropriate, because that would explain to a reader what is going on the picture.  Without my remark, this portion of the text is misleading. It basically says that Putin is a religious man, or at least he respects religion. But nothing can be further from the truth. Putin is not speaking with a spiritual leader.  He is speaking with his subordinate. What do you think?Biophys 05:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course there is a lot of hard evidence (much more than enough for Wikipedia). If you do not want to read the books by Mitrokhin and others - that is your problem. Biophys 20:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: This could be fun. But hey, better a former KGB man than a pedophile. ellol 22:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Agent DROZDOV

message: Okay, so I know that the spy has proportedly been posioned by Vlad, but this as of current, has not been proven.  This is an encyclopedia, not a place for conspiracy theories.  The article should be very careful to ensure that blame is not placed on any one until the investigation has been finished.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.42.230 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 28 November 2006
:Agreed. Tnapoleao 02:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  I've tried to even things out a bit with this edit to point out that both of the allegations are disputed.  I'm not sure if the sources themselves are considered "good sources" (I honestly don't know), but the info seems well-presented and they link to a lot of other articles to make their case.  Here are the two links: Yushchenko, Litvinenko. Esn 06:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, well my sources have been removed by an anonymous user on the basis that Justin Raimondo is a "crank", apparently.  Ah well.  I'm too tired to argue about this or find new ones, to be honest, and I hate edit wars.  If anyone else feels up to the task, please feel free (at least the links are on the talk page now and won't get deleted here).  Esn 21:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a follow-up link about the fired doctor story (found by another user on the Victor Yushchenko talk page): "I received death threats, says doctor who denied that Ukrainian leader was poisoned".  This is for that anonymous user who deleted my previous sources for some odd reason.  The one about the Litvienko case also had some interesting links.  I am concerned that the section as it stands now does not present arguments from both sides. Esn 00:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Agreed. The conspiracy theories are only relevant in an encyclopedic biography as examples of the president's growing controversy in some Western circles in recent years, not as a possible matter of biographical fact. 172 | Talk 10:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccuracy with Poisoning 

message: In this edit, the following passage was recently removed from the article on the allegation that it added nothing to the article and that it was unsourced:
Litvinenko publicly accused Putin in a statement, which was released shortly after his death by his friend Alex Goldfarb. Critics doubt that Litvinenko is a true author of the statement released. They refer to the fact that the idiom "angel of death" encountered in the statement is not common for a native Russian speaker and it could rather be used by a person who natively speaks English. They also doubt that by the time of writing he was mentally capable of performing such complex activity as writing a public statement. They point out that it took 16 hours for him to recall the details of his meeting in the restraunt "Itsu" at about the time of alleged writing. Critics also refer to the fact that no video or audio recording of his words exists. When asked about Litvinenko statement at a press conference after joint Russia-EU summit, Putin doubted its credibility by raising a question as to why it was not published before his death and saying that there could be no comments on a statement released after death of its author.
I don't know, but I clicked on those links and those look like sources to me - the only unfortunate detail being that they're in Russian.  Non-English sources are not forbidden on wikipedia, especially in cases where the argument in a certain language can be one-sided.  Perhaps the section could be shortened and the user directed to the Litvinenko article instead, but I'm not sure that it was a good idea to just delete it outright. Esn 21:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of Litvinenko section

message: I am open to addressing the reaction to the Litvienko death in this article, but, without offering any context, devoting an entire section to a narrative of conspiracy theories is about as unencyclopedic as anything that can be done to this article.  
Earlier today, I converted a new section of the article that consisted of a narrative of conspiracy theories into a section on Putin's crime policies-- important material that makes the article more encyclopedic previously not addressed.  But then I was reverted by editor accusing me of "suppressing documented information."  Frankly, this is a dishonest misrepresentation of my edits. My rewrite mentioned, "the poisoning of Litvinenko raised suspicions that his death might be the work of Putin's security service colleagues." I contextualized the discussion on the basis of two relevant topics to an encyclopedic biography on a Russian president: (1) a discussion of the politics of crime and (2) the notability of the allegation in Western circles. The previous version, however, discussed Litvineko under the heading "Unnatural deaths of political critics"-- an obvious attempt to spoil the well against the subject of the article (and, I think, afoul of the Wikipedia living persons guidelines). 172 | Talk 03:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you do not like the title of the section, change it. If you feel it needs balance, add it. But do not delete an entire section and replace it with pro-Putin propoganda, and then cynically claim it's an attempt to make the article more "encyclopedic". You used the word "notorious" to describe a Putin critic, followed by a rambling criticm of him (and he's not even the subject of the article!). Are you under the impression that "notorious" is an objective, encyclopedic term? And why is your campaign to make the article more encyclopedic focused only on negative information about Putin (see section below)?BrianH123 03:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are distoring my edits. I did not call him "notorious." I said that his claims gained him notoriety, and this is an indisputable fact; his claim that Prime Minister Prodi was the "KGB's man" gained him notoriety in Italian circles, for example. Anyway, this is no longer an issue; the word was replaced with "publicity" by another editor-- and edit I support. Moreover, pointing out the use of a single word-- I admit probably not the best word choice for a first draft-- is a diversion from a question concering the contents of an entire section of the article. Focus on the broader question about how to neutrally contextualize the subject matter. 172 | Talk 04:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The definition of notoriety is "The quality or condition of being notorious; ill fame." So what distinction are you trying to make? Moving on from that issue to another specific one, your latest edit watered down the murders of journalists under Putin. Apparently you think it's more "encyclopedic" to be vague about these murders than specific. Why is that?BrianH123 04:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Notorious seems to be the opposite of WP:PEACOCK. Shouldn't have been added. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 04:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

text: BrianH123, it's the quality or condition. It is an indisputable fact that Litvinenko gained the 'condition of ill-fame' among some circles, following, for example, his allegations against the Italian prime minister. I wouldn't have called him "notorious"; he was not known and viewed unfavorably by everyone. Still, following your response, I see the confusion the use of the term generates, and, as I said earlier, I retract it. Regarding your comment "Apparently you think it's more 'encyclopedic' to be vague about these murders than specific," refer back to my initial post under this heading made on 03:05, 2 December. Or I'll summarize the problems with your proposed version  here: Including a section on "Unnatural deaths of political critics" in an encyclopedia biography on Vladimir Putin implies that the editors of the Wikipedia article are suggesting a causal relationship between Putin, the subject of the article, and the "unnatural deaths of political critics," the subject of the section. Wikipedia has guidelines on biographies of living persons that caution us from structuring entries about contemporary politicians in such inflammatory ways. The guidelines not only protect Wikipedia from the possibility of legal retaliation, but also aid editors in achieving the neutrality on which the site's goal of establishing public credibility as an encyclopedia rests. Contrary to what you may assume, I am not pro-Putin. I'm not a Russian citizen, or an American with any influence on U.S. policy on Russia. I'm pro-Wikipedia and pro-encyclopedia. 172 | Talk 07:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Unencyclopedic or not, check out Death_of_Diana%2C_Princess_of_Wales#Conspiracy_theories on wikipedia. The point is not to prove if the theories are wrong or right, but to give information about how the world was informed and what the world was informed of. Bib 19:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sections devoted to conspiracy theories are unencyclopedic

message: The large number of unnatural death of Putin critics is, like it or not, causing political repercussions in Europe. Don't these deaths and political repercussions merit even mention in the article? If so, why is this information being repeatedly deleted? I note that article manages to find room to mention that Putin "works out regularly" and once kissed a little boy on the stomach. This People Magazine style trivia is evidently considered "encyclopedic", but the fact that 14 journalists critical of Putin have been murdered in recent years evidently is not. I would like to have the rationale for that explained to me. --BrianH123 03:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your comments above distort the content of my edits. My new section states, "the poisoning of Litvinenko raised suspicions that his death might be the work of Putin's security service colleagues." It also mentions that "some notable homicide or attempted homicide victims in the former Soviet Union have been Putin critics, such as Viktor Yushchenko (September 2004), Anna Politkovskaya (October 2006), and Alexander Litvinenko (November 2002)." The way you present these topics, however, is grossly unencyclopedic. See my comments above. 172 | Talk 03:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's your edits that are unencyclopedic. Labeling a critic "notorious" is not being encyclopedic. And you don't get away with it just because he's dead.BrianH123 03:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See my post above. Be ready to discuss the other issues at hand. Focusing on the use of a single word-- now changed-- is a distraction. 172 | Talk 04:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You really do thrive on assuming bad faith, don't you? It can't be that I objected to what you wrote. It must be that I was trying to create a "distraction" for some nefarious purpose. BrianH123 04:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The new version by 172 seems fine to me. BTW, Brian, watch out for 3RR, which it looks like you're already past. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 05:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I don't believe so. I deliberately let 172's version stand to avoid that. BrianH123 05:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Negative information about Putin not allowed? 

message: under the section on putin's second term:
"One of the most controversial aspects of Putin's second term was the prosecution of Russia's richest man, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, President of Yukos oil company, who knowingly and purposefully robbed the Russian State and Russian people of hundreds of millions of dollars. While much of the international press saw this as a reaction against a man who was funding political opponents of the Kremlin, both liberal and Communist, the Russian government has argued that Khodorkovsky was in fact engaged in corrupting a large segment of the Duma to prevent changes in the tax code aimed at taxing windfall profits and closing offshore tax evasion vehicles. Certainly, many of the initial privatizations, including that of Yukos, are widely believed to have been fraudulent (Yukos, valued at some $30bn in 2004, had been privatized for $110 million), and like the other oligarchic groups, the Yukos-Menatep name has been frequently tarred with accusations of links to criminal organizations."
smacks of pro-putin propaganda
:Yes, it does. It was added by an anonymous user in this edit. BrianH123 16:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took out the phrase you italicized. It's vague and overheated. It's also redundant in at least two ways: If you do something purposefully, you have to do it knowingly, and it's not possible to "rob" someone without knowing you did so. BrianH123 20:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the information is obvious and well known, it needs to be sourced as it stands, via WP:BLP. Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 21:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The issue should be sourced in Mikhail Khodorkovsky article. You cannot source one and the same piece information in each and every article it is mentioned. Wikipedia will turn into endless list of references. Each piece of data is referenced in the directly relevant article. `'mikkanarxi 21:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The way it is now ("robbed" without "knowingly and purposefully") is better, but better still would be something more specific and dispassionate than "robbed". BrianH123 22:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, specifically, they have stolen, a short word for "embezzled, fraudulently appropriated" and other $20 words. `'mikkanarxi 23:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Stolen" is not specific, but whatever. It's not like we're writing an encyclopedia or anything. BrianH123 00:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sufficiently specific in this page; see "stealing". All detailed specifics are in the corresponding article. We don't have to quote an exact sentence here, do we? `'mikkanarxi 20:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  bias re: yukos 

message: This piece does not belong to a biographical article, hence removed. You may want to create Crime in Russia.
 
:In the 1990s, the growth of organized crime (see Russian mafia and Russian oligarchs) and the fragmentation of law enforcement agencies in Russia coincided with a sharp rise in violence against business figures, administrative and state officials, and other public figures. Tanya Frisby, "The Rise of Organised Crime in Russia: Its Roots and Social Significance," Europe-Asia Studies, 50, 1, 1998, p. 35. Putin inherited these problems when he took office, and during his election campaign in 2000, the new president won popular support by stressing the need to restore law and order and to bring rule of law to Russia as the only way of restoring confidence in the country's economy. 
:However, although street mafia-linked violence has decreased, criminal groups currently remain heavily involved the corruption of state and public officials. The Russian homicide rate doubled during the 1990s, and remains high to this day.  While the continued prevasiveness of crime in post-Soviet Russia does not appear to diminish Putin's domestic popularity, violence in Russia has taken a toll on Putin's reputation in the West. For example, some notable Russian homicide or attempted homicide victims in the former Soviet Union have been Putin critics such as Viktor Yushchenko (September 2004), Anna Politkovskaya (October 2006), and Alexander Litvinenko (November 2006). Some Western Russian experts have cautioned against making any assumption of involvement of Putin associates in the deaths of Kremlin critics. "There is no direct evidence linking this to Mr Putin," said Alex Pravda of Chatham House and St Antony's College, Oxford. Pravda added, "You have to remember that an important aspect of Russian life at the moment is a lack of co-ordination between government, corporate and other organisations." "You should not assume, therefore, that an order, if there was one, came from the top. In Russia, a lot of things are done independently. But there is an obsession with security in Russia these days, and that permeates political life and could have influenced people." 
`'mikkanarxi 20:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed section: "Crime" 

message: What has happened to the quotations section and why has it been deleted without discussion? User 81.106.199.17 (talk).
:Quotations were erased by user Savidan on December, 4.
:You can see the last version of Quotations here, and their code exposed here.
:The problem was the Quotations were too big. Savidan said "i know of no other world leader whose bio is stuffed to the gills with quotes--these belong on wikiquote". Other user left a message above recently, "The Quotations section takes up half the page. Could everyone consider trimming it down a bit? You can get more quotes in WikiQuotes so I don't see the point in flooding the page with it. Cyborg Ninja 29 Nov 2006 14:39 (UTC)"
:Of course, according to common Wikipedian policy, you are free and welcome to work on Quotations. ellol 22:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did it according to my taste. But the above comment remains true. ellol 19:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotations?

message: Two fifths (almost a half) of this wiki article on Putin is devoted to "humor" about Putin, comparisons to unlikable characters from films, and various negative perceptions coming from dubious sources (is "citation needed" a source?).
Compare that to the George W. Bush article which has less then 1/10 of it devoted to his "criticisms and public perception", not to mention that there are absolutely no citations or images of him as the "Mad" character or  him holding the children's book upside down, or his antics with things like "nucular weapons" (giving a middle finger to cameras?)? Or perhaps an explanation how he ever graduated from Yale, since wikipedia seems to investigate one's academic work quite deeply (as in the allegation of Putin's plagiarism)...
I know that this is an article about Putin and not G.W.B., but wikipedia needs to apply the same standard to all world leaders, whoever they are, limiting it's articles to balanced reporting of facts. I actually have no objections to G.W. article (above questions are meant to show how ridiculous this POV approach is); rather, all world leaders' articles should follow the same standards and not sound like someone's personal soap box. In this case Putin's article leaves a lot to be desired, like more serious approach to descibing his actions and/or achievements and failures rather then concetrating on negative suggestions and painting his image in certain colors.
Compare beginings of paragraphs about Bush and Putin:
Bush article:
"Time magazine named George W. Bush as its Person of the Year for 2000". (That's the first sentence of Bush "criticism" paragraph)
"Bush enjoyed strong support among Americans..."
"Bush began his second term with an emphasis on improving strained relations..."
"As one of the most popular governors in the nation..."
"Days into his first term, Bush announced his commitment to channeling more federal aid to faith-based service organizations..."
Compare that to beginings of paragraphs in the Putin article:
"Putin was appointed Prime Minister ... making him Russia's fifth prime minister in less than eighteen months."
"... Putin, a virtual unknown, to last any longer than his predecessors..."
"...This put all of his opponents at a disadvantage, giving him the element of surprise and an eventual victory..." as if he stole his victory (which could be said of Bush)
"One of the most controversial aspects of Putin's second term was the prosecution of Russia's richest man...". (note: Putin was not the judge nor in the jury and was certainly less connected to the affair then Bush was to Enron).
"...Kremlin-controlled or allied media accused Putin's chief rivals..." (I haven't seen a single reference as to president Bush's media connections in Bush article. Does that mean that they don't exist?)
"In international affairs, Putin has been trying..." - yet another negative conotation...
"While President Putin is criticized as an autocrat..."
"Putin surprised many... "
"During his time in office, Putin has attempted to..."
Putin has been trying, has been criticized, and has been attempting things. He has also "surprised" (a quality no one would want from a leader who has his finger on world's second largest nuclear arsenal).
Putin article needs to be neutral.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.97.140 (talk • contribs) 
What's your point? Many of the sentences you refer to are just stating facts, and the "negative connotations" are in the eyes of the beholder. For instance, Putin was completely (not "virtually" as the article says) unknown before becoming the PM -- which is not surprising for an FSB agent. Or you don't like that the article mentions criticism of Putin -- but article on Bush does so too. 
Lebatsnok 14:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV disputed 

message: To which particular period does this refer? When did it originate? Do we think the phrase warrants a mention in the article? --80.1.72.245 00:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would disappoint you, the vast amount of Russian society approved Putin's harsh treatment of boeviks in about 1999-2002. ellol 00:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but I have seen the phrase used in English Newspaper articles. I'd like to find out who first used it and quote it in the article.--80.1.72.245 01:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I offer you also to carry out an intense search in South and North Korean, Polynesian, Latin American and other newspapers. ellol 11:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Butcher of Grozny 

message: What is the relation between Vladimir Putin and Boris Jelcin? It is largely argued now in Russia and outside that Russia is at a deadlock (Ofcourse taking into consideration that  the only thing that brings money is recources and not business). So what sources can be placed to clear up the relation between the two and say why 'Jelcin (democrat) gave power' (i'm not saying he gave it himself) to Putin who 'definetly smells of nothing near to democracy'.
:Ah, I assume you meant Boris Yeltsin ;). Well, to be honest, usually these talk pages are here to talk about how we can make the page better. However, I think it's fair to note that I've been thinking about this a lot recently, even as an American, and I've remembered that Putin, when he was inaugurated, was a bit of a question mark, and it took several years for us to figure out what his ideas were (they do not seem to be in accordance with Yeltsin's). -Patstuarttalk|edits 18:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean Alexander Litvinenko, right?
Dzerzhinsky 23:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vladimir Putin and Boris Jelcin relation

message: I temporarily removed the new contribution for further discussion:
:As of December, 2006, The Russian government is putting increasing pressure on legitimate opposition groups, particularly the movement led by Garry Kasparov. Government agents entered Kasparov's offices during the week of December 10 and seized books and printed materials related to a March on the following Saturday. Kasparov's office claimed that the raid was illegal.  Later during the Saturday march, approximately 70 marchers were arrested. It is said that thousands turned out for the March. Additional arrests were made in other locations around the country. Kasparov, the former world chess champion has been a severe critic of the Putin regime, accusing it of undermining democracy in Russia. There is no doubt that government harassment of opposition political groups has become a standard tactic of Putin's government.  
:December also cast a dark cloud on the reputation of the Russian government around the world, as world attention centered on the poisoning and death of former KGB agent Alexander Litvineko in London. Litvineko, in a dramatic deathbed statement, blamed President Putin for his murder. The murder involved the apparent first use of radioactive polonium-210 as a poison.
I don't doubt in your literature talents, but can't not to raise a question: are we a wikipedia article or yellowish papers?!! As it is now, it doesn't pass. The Russian government comprises executive, legislative and judiciary branches. Be more strict: who were 'government agents', MVD, FSB or OMON? What was the official reason for intrusion and arrest (for several hours or for 2 days????) 'It is said' doesn't fit. The last sentence of first passage is propaganda. Above all, the whole message is not sourced.
About Litvinenko murder, let's wait for the end of the official investigation, and then put it into the article or not. ellol 23:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed with Ellol, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a yellow press. Alexandre Koriakine 22:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, Ellol, 13 in 6 years is not much better than 13 in one year. Normally the number should be close to zero. But "13 since 2000" is certainly not the right number: European Federation of Journalists has a data base in which all non-natural deaths of journalists in Russia are listed; if you want, you can count how many murders are there in 2006. (You'll be surprised.)  As Stalin said, the death of one person is tragedy; the death of one million people is statistics. In Russia, the "mysterious" murders of journalists are maybe not yet statistics, but no longer a tragedy either. Lebatsnok 15:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Press freedom and intimidation

message: On the election article, it says the European group has criticised the elections and that the CIS have called them free and fair.
However on this article it says the European group has called them free and fair and fails to mention the CIS at all. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 15:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, you are absolutely right, in the OSCE report there is not a single word that the elections were free and fair, rather something contrary to this, so I am going to remove this paragraph from the Vladimir Putin page. After all, necessary data are provided in Russian presidential election, 2004, which seems enough. Colchicum 16:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: Товарищ Волк знает кого кушать. Кушает и никого не слушает. - the proper translation is "Comrade Wolf knows who to eat. (He) eats and doesn't listen to anyone." The explanations that follow are fine as they supplement nuances lost in the translation, but the translation itself given in the article is innacurate. With respect, Ko Soi IX 09:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Innacurate translations 

message: I compiled an annotated list of important laws proposed by Putin, but User:Colin Keigher deleted it. However, the article about George W. Bush does contain a link to such a list, and I think it is an important mean to characterize Putin's policy. Is it worth including or not? Here is the section:
Vladimir Putin legislation and programs
Legislation proposed by Putin, approved by the Federal Assembly of Russia, and signed by Putin 
* Proposed on May 192000, signed on July 292000: 
Federal Law On Modifications and Additions to the Federal Law On General Principles of the Organization of Legislative (Representative) and Executive Bodies of State Power of the Subjects of the Russian Federation
О внесении изменений и дополнений в Федеральный закон "Об общих принципах организации законодательных (представительных) и исполнительных органов государственной власти субъектов Российской Федерации"
It authorizes the president to dismiss the heads of Federal subjects of Russia.
* Proposed on May 192000, signed on August 52000: 
Federal Law On the Formation of the Federation Council of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation
О порядке формирования Совета Федерации Федерального Собрания Российской Федерации
It replaces the heads of the legislative and executive Bodies of the Federal subjects of Russia with representatives of these bodies as Members of the Federation Council of Russia.
* Proposed on January 152001, signed on December 252000:
Federal Constitutional Law On the State Anthem of the Russian Federation
Федеральный конституционный закон "О Государственном гимне Российской Федерации"
It changes the Russian anthem to a version based on the musical score of the pre-1991 Soviet anthem.
* Proposed on August 302000, signed on February 122001: 
Federal Law On Guarantees for Former Presidents and Their Families
О гарантиях Президенту Российской Федерации, прекратившему исполнение своих полномочий, и членам его семьи
* Proposed on January 152001, signed on March 222001:
Federal Constitutional Law On Modifications and an Addition to the Federal Law On the State Anthem of the Russian Federation
О внесении изменений и дополнения в Федеральный конституционный закон "О Государственном гимне Российской Федерации"
It approves the new text of the anthem written by Sergey Mikhalkov.
* Proposed on May 252001, signed on December 152001:
Federal Law On Modifications and Additions to the Federal Law On the Status of Judges in the Russian Federation
О внесении изменений и дополнений в Закон Российской Федерации "О статусе судей в Российской Федерации"
It introduces disciplinary and administrative responsibility of judges.
* Proposed on May 252001, signed on December 152001:
Federal Law On Basic Guarantees of Suffrage and Right of Referendum of the Citizens of the Russian Federation
Об основных гарантиях избирательных прав и права на участие в референдуме граждан Российской Федерации
It prohibits to conduct a referendum within the last year of a term of the president or State Duma and disallows mass media to comment on election campaign.
* Proposed on April 292002, signed on July 252002:
Federal Law On Modifications and Additions to the Russian Federation’s Legislation in Connection with the Passing of the Federal Law On Countering Extremist Activities
О внесении изменений и дополнений в законодательные акты Российской Федерации в связи с принятием Федерального закона "О противодействии экстремистской деятельности"
Federal Law On Countering Extremist Activities
О противодействии экстремистской деятельности
These regulations define the notion of extremism and establish measures to counter it, including procedures of suspension of political parties, public and religious associations. 
* Proposed on September 122002, signed on January 102003:
Federal Law On the Election of the President of the Russian Federation
О выборах Президента Российской Федерации
 
It considerably changes regulations concerning the nomination procedure and doesn’t require the nominees of political parties that are represented in the State Duma to collect one million signatures in support of their registration anymore. Each of the other nominees has to collect two million signatures rather than one million required before.
* Proposed on January 42003, signed on October 62003:
Federal Law On General Principles of Organization of the Local Self-Government in the Russian Federation
Об общих принципах организации местного самоуправления в Российской Федерации
It establishes a limited list of powers of the local self-government and defines the circumstances under which they have to be delegated to executive power bodies of the Federal subject.
* Proposed on January 312003, signed on July 42003:
Federal Law On Modifications and Additions to Some Legislative Acts of the Russian Federation in Connection with the Passing of the Federal Law On Basic Guarantees of Suffrage and Right of Referendum of the Citizens of the Russian Federation
О внесении изменений и дополнений в некоторые законодательные акты Российской Федерации в связи с принятием Федерального закона "Об основных гарантиях избирательных прав и права на участие в референдуме граждан Российской Федерации"
It establishes that a mass media can be suspended if it violates election legislation twice during an election campaign.
 
* Proposed on February 192004, signed on March 252004:
Federal Constitutional Law On Formation of a New Subject of the Russian Federation within the Russian Federation as a Result of Unification of Perm Region and Komi-Permyak Autonomous Area. 
Об образовании в составе Российской Федерации нового субъекта Российской Федерации в результате объединения Пермской области и Коми-Пермяцкого автономного округа
It merges the Perm Oblast and Komi-Permyak Autonomous District into the Perm Krai.
 
* Proposed on September 282004, signed on December 112004:
Federal Law On Modifications to the Federal Law On General Principles of the Organization of Legislative (Representative) and Executive Bodies of State Power of the Subjects of the Russian Federation and the Federal Law On Basic Guarantees of Suffrage and Right of Referendum of the Citizens of the Russian Federation
О внесении изменений в Федеральный закон "Об общих принципах организации законодательных (представительных) и исполнительных органов государственной власти субъектов Российской Федерации" и в Федеральный закон "Об основных гарантиях избирательных прав и права на участие в референдуме граждан Российской Федерации"
It replaces the direct election of the heads of the Federal subjects of Russia with a system whereby they are proposed by the President and approved or disapproved by the legislative power bodies of the federal subjects. 
 
* Proposed on December 82004, signed on April 42005:
Federal Law On the Public Chamber of the Russian Federation
Об Общественной палате Российской Федерации
It institutes the Public Chamber of Russia.
 
* Proposed on December 82004, signed on May 182005:
Federal Law On the Election of Deputies of the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation
О выборах депутатов Государственной Думы Федерального Собрания Российской Федерации
It establishes that the State Duma will be elected by closed party-list proportional voting only, entirely eliminating the single-member district plurality voting system that accounted for half of the 450 seats before, and raises electoral threshold from 5 to 7%.
* Proposed on April 142005, signed on July 212005:
Federal Law On Modifications to the Russian Federation’s Legislation on Elections and Referenda as well as other Legislative Acts.
О внесении изменений в законодательные акты Российской Федерации о выборах и референдумах и иные законодательные акты Российской Федерации
 
It considerably toughens formal requirements for nomination, allows electronic voting, makes funding the parties participating in the State Duma receive from the government ten times higher and establishes that a member of the State Duma loses his/her seat as (s)he leaves his/her faction.
* Proposed on June 292005, signed on October 142005:
Federal Constitutional Law On Formation of a New Subject of the Russian Federation within the Russian Federation as a Result of Unification of Krasnoyarsk Krai and  Taimyr (Dolgan-Nenets) Autonomous District and Evenki Autonomous District.
Название: Об образовании в составе Российской Федерации нового субъекта Российской Федерации в результате объединения Красноярского края, Таймырского (Долгано-Ненецкого) автономного округа и Эвенкийского автономного округа
It makes the Taimyr Autonomous District and Evenki Autonomous District parts of the Krasnoyarsk Krai.
* Proposed on September 262005, signed on December 272005:
 
Federal Law On Parliamentary Investigation by the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation
 
О парламентском расследовании Федерального Собрания Российской Федерации
 
It regulates the parliamentary investigation and prohibits parliamentary investigation of the activities of the President, court and investigative authorities if they comply to the processual law. Also it establishes that no parliamentary investigation should last longer than a year and that the cases processed by a court should not be subject to it. 
 
* Proposed on May 232006, signed on July 122006:
Federal Constitutional Law On Formation of a New Subject of the Russian Federation within the Russian Federation as a Result of Unification of Kamchatka Oblast and Koryak Autonomous District
Об образовании в составе Российской Федерации нового субъекта Российской Федерации в результате объединения Камчатской области и Корякского автономного округа
It merges the Kamchatka Oblast and Koryak Autonomous District into the Kamchatka Krai.
 
* Proposed on November 82006, signed on December 302006:
Federal Constitutional Law On Formation of a New Subject of the Russian Federation within the Russian Federation as a Result of Unification of Irkutsk Oblast and Ust-Orda Buryat Autonomous District
Об образовании в составе Российской Федерации нового субъекта Российской Федерации в результате объединения Иркутской области и Усть-Ордынского Бурятского автономного округа
It makes the Ust-Orda Buryat Autonomous District part of the Irkutsk Oblast.
Colchicum 18:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Notice how the George Bush article has it on a separate page? :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 22:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putin Legislation 

message: I don't know if it would be good to add in this article (or his list of quotes article) this quote about his recent criticism of the U.S foreign policy that he made yesterday
--JForget 21:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Putin's criticism over the U.S policy

message: Hey guys,
Is there really a need for so many references to the one statement (e.g. In the Chechen war section, there are seven references to the one statement)? You may improve the article by picking the best sources out of the lot.
59.101.176.223 09:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of references

message: This was the original text:
Ok one sentence at a time.
On March 3, 2007, a demonstration of several thousand opposition protesters (see Saint Petersburg March of the Discontented) was suppressed by city authorities in St. Petersburg. 
::Several thousand is an estimation not even backed up in the later part of the addition (1500 -15000) therefore numbers removed until a more accurate number is provided.
::Changed suppressed to stopped, as march was unauthorized. Hence stopped.
Several thousand members of liberal and leftist groups (the number differs from 1,500 to 15,000 according to different estimates) chanted "Down with Matviyenko", "Shame to Putin", "Revolution", "No to police state" as they marched down Nevsky Prospekt.
::Again numbers are questioned do deleted.
::Guys it is not relevant what they chanted. Their slogans are irrelevant - it is a protest.
OMON beat dozens of protestors with truncheons but several thousand broke through police cordons. 
::Don't demonise OMON, that is POV.
::Again issues with numbers.
Officials stated that 100 people were detained, including heads of National Bolshevik Party and Vanguard of Red Youth and a member of United Civil Front. Organizers of demonstration state the number of detainees is several hundreds.
::No problem with this but state your sources.
::Minor grammar correction regarding organisers estimate of detainees - 'is several hundred' to 'substantially larger'
Governor of Saint Petersburg Valentina Matviyenko called the action "provocation". Analogous demonstration took place in December in Moscow, though was of less scale. Russia's television stations covered these protests only briefly.
::Relevence to Putin's term? 
::This information should be placed on the March of the Discontented page not here.
Lastly I would question the actual inclusion of this information in the article - it is of trivial importance considering the fact that we are dealing with a presidential term - this information may be better left on Matviyenko's page on events in St Petersburg. Please discuss this otherwise I will consider deleting this addition.
59.101.157.29 14:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IMHO, the importance of this event is minor, at least, if considered alone. IMHO, it could be mentioned in some broader overview of political life in Russia, if anyone would manage to write it. ellol 15:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edition to the protest and explanation of changes

message: SPAG
I have removed a political edit from the article. Below is the sections removed with the reasons for removal.
See http://www.buzzflash.com/mediawatch/03/10/03.html
:A German foreign intelligence investigation probe [allegedly] found that Russian crime lords transferred money through Rudolf Ritter (founder of SPAG) into correspondent accounts at a Romanian bank and then used it to buy St. Petersburg real estate via SPAG
:Ritter has denied these charges. 
:Ritter has not been convicted on any charges.
My question is why are you guys adding this? The whole thing is questionable, as Ritter has not been convicted of anything. How about innocent until proven guilty? Try to assume good faith, besides why is there guilt by association of Putin on a possible fictitious charge that isn’t even addressed to him? 
I see this as politically motivated information as at the moment it is only based on speculation and not proved fact. Therefore I have removed it.
59.101.157.29 05:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of Politically Motivated Additions

message: The article indicates that on the day on which Putin was nominated as prime minister, he volunteered to run for the presidency.  ("Yeltsin also announced that he wanted to see Putin as his successor. Later, that same day, Putin agreed to run for the presidency.")  The source for this is a BBC article that appears to based on an incorrect translation. (Mr Yeltsin said he wanted Mr Putin to succeed him as president in next year's elections. Mr Putin immediately responded by saying: I shall definitely stand for the post of Russian president.") It seems that Putin actually said that he would support the office of the presidency, and not that he was planning to run for president. I certainly do not recall Putin saying this in August of 1999.  Would it be possible to find the Russian text for this?  - JackRus
JackRus, that moment is viewed in memoirs of Boris Yeltsin , if you can read this extract it would be great, if not I'll translate most important parts. The passage refers to August 5, 1999, when Yeltsin offered Putin to become a Prime Minister. Before this, Yeltsin thought of his candidature as a future president, but never shared his thoughts with anyone. The extract proves that Putin wasn't eager to become a president. So, at least from POV of Yeltsin, "I shall definitely stand for the post of Russian president" is nonsense. 
:Август — самая отпускная пора.  Назначение Путина будет как гром среди ясного неба. Все мгновенно накалится.  Но несколько  амортизирующих  недель, когда  людям так  не  хочется  влезать  в политику, выходить из  благостного настроения, у нас будут.
:У Путина будет время, чтобы взять разгон.
:... Вызвал секретаря и сообщил  ему, что  завтра две  встречи. С кем — скажу позже. Волошина попросил готовить документы.
:5-го, рано утром, я встретился с Путиным.
:Я объяснил  положение вещей. Предстоит  жестокая борьба. Прежде всего - предвыборная. Но  не только. Удержать ситуацию в стране  под контролем будет непросто  во всех областях.  Очень  тревожно на  Северном Кавказе.  Возможны какие-то  политические  провокации  в  Москве.  Трудно  понять, способен  ли нынешний состав правительства удержать инфляцию. От того, как новый  премьер поведет себя в  течение  ближайших не  только месяцев, но  и недель, зависит буквально все. Зависит будущее страны.
:"Я  принял  решение,  Владимир   Владимирович,  и  предлагаю  вам  пост премьер-министра".
:Путин смотрел на меня внимательно. Молчал.
:"Но  это еще не все, - продолжил я. - Вы примерно представляете, почему я вынужден отставить  вашего предшественника. Я знаю, что Степашин ваш друг, тоже петербуржец, но сейчас нужно думать о другом. Ваша позиция  должна быть предельно  корректной, выдержанной, но  твердой. Только  так вы достигнете и авторитета в обществе, и успешного итога парламентских выборов".
:"На кого  будем  опираться на  выборах?" -  спросил Путин.  "Не знаю, - честно  ответил  я.  -  Будем строить новую партию. Я, как человек,  который намучился с парламентом  больше, чем  кто  бы то  ни  было в  истории, знаю, насколько  вам необходима  твердая  опора  в  Думе.  Но  главное -  это  ваш собственный политический  ресурс, ваш образ. Создавать  его искусственно  не надо. Но и забывать об этой проблеме нельзя".
:Путин задумался.
:"Предвыборной борьбы не  люблю, -  признался он.  - Очень.  Не умею  ею заниматься и не люблю".
:"А вам и не  придется ею заниматься. Главное -  ваша воля, уверенность. Ваши  поступки. От этого все зависит. Политический авторитет  либо приходит, либо нет. Вы готовы?"
:"Буду работать там, куда назначите", - немногословно ответил Путин.
:По-военному...
:"А на самый высокий пост?"
:Путин замешкался с ответом. Чувствовалось, что он впервые по-настоящему осознал, о чем идет разговор.
:"Не  знаю, Борис  Николаевич.  Не  думаю,  что  я  к  этому  готов".  - "Подумайте. Я верю в вас".
:В кабинете висела  напряженная тишина.  Каждый мельчайший звук я слышал очень отчетливо. Особенно ход часов.
:У  Путина очень интересные глаза. Кажется, что  они говорят больше, чем его слова.
ellol 21:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When did Putin agree to run for president? 

message: "His biography, От Первого Лица" -- We should add the English translation of this to the article. -- 201.50.254.243 14:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putin's biography: Title: English translation? 

message: Guys what do you think if we combine all the controversies in the article into one section at the bottom of the article above the Criticism section?
It would be a better read then and from what I've seen is the more common format in Wikipedia.
If I wouldn't have naysayers I will proceed to create the section through cutting and pasting of existing information.
59.101.205.24 08:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Controversy Section

message: *http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/p/putin-first.html
*http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,270555,00.html 
There is LOTS of mistakes in the article. --HanzoHattori 11:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you see mistakes you know what to do :). Do help us out here and correct any inconsistencies on sight.
Thanks 59.101.161.148 13:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vladimir Putin Senior was in NKVD (not "land forces"), Junior was a taxi driver for a while in the early 90s 

message: No more questions. I stand corrected. Thanks for educating me about WikiPedia.
I remember when I first heard about this, I thought it was absolutely great. An unbiased, factual encyclopedia on line. For 3 years I have let my subscriptions run out, and left a few trees in the forest by not buying hard copies.
Now, it appears, I was entirely wrong. Any topic can have a bunch of hooligans hanging out all night, playing Goebbels with their favorite subject, and there is no accountability? No oversight? No final authority? No final review? That is not an encyclopedia. That is propaganda anarchy.
The most attentive (or those with the most spare time on their hands) can rewrite history any way they see fit, and keep writing retrograde versions over the truth?
So Putin's KGB, which certainly has the most resources to dedicate to the task, can man this web page "behind the curtains" and make sure he looks good 99.9% of the time that anyone seeks data.
And, although I do not care to see what lies they have about Dubbya (almost as sick and vile a cretin), I am sure Libby and Rove are keeping their guys up at night, to whitewash his lies. But as much of a fascist as he and all his lying pals are, they do not dare condone -or ignore journalists murdered during his administration, no less 19, or being the prime suspect in two of the assassinations. That is the DEFINITION of Putin. Besides the deranged company he keeps -and defends (Kim-ill and Ahmadinejad). This article reads like a tour guide. Girls want to kiss Putin.
Right. Kiss Polonium Putin. OK, take it away. You can have it. You can erase this farewell. I will go shell out the bucks for a new encyclopedia and whack a few trees. At least there, somebody with a real name and address has to accept responsibility for any lies, slant or spin they print. This is no encyclopedia. It is a bloated blogsite -with a veil of academic legitimacy.
:Well, Dana, all is not so easy. You may have a look at the history, the major squall of attacks on this page is "Putin is an asshole" and "Don't trust him he's a bad guy." If this is done by FSB personnel, they have a weird sense of humour. But after all, if you feel the dispute is not resolved properly, feel free to address the Arbitration Committee, or let's continue dispute. Perhaps you do not quite understand this, but Russia is a presidential republic. Prime minister is the second figure in the state, and it's appointed by the President after approval by the Parliament. Do you understand that Yeltsin could in any moment dismiss Putin from his position, while Putin was a Prime Minister? But it was a conscious policy of Yeltsin to put forward that figure who he considered to be a good pretendent for position of President. If you are interested about my personal perception of Putin -- well, if mantra of Bush's administration is "was on terror", mantra of Putin's administration is "stability, stability at any price". Perhaps it's not exactly what Russia needs now. I'm sure, that the following year will bring some really interesting news about Russia. ellol 05:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Ellol -No review committee or mediation? 

message: i understand that this is an article on a russian topic, but is it ok to have russian lang. sources for an english encylopedia?
:Yes, it is OK.  Of course, English language sources are preferrable and should be used first when possible.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 23:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian sources

message: Putin recently said if US puts missiles in Europe, Putin promises to target Europe.  -Yancyfry 02:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alas, our poor world still holds on the system of Mutually assured destruction. It's military logics. Objects of military "nuclear" infrastructure are the top in the list of potential targets. I believe, American icbm's top priority are missile shafts of the "potential adversary", as well as Russian icbm's top priority are shafts of their "potential adversary". Of course, God keep these nations from a war. Putin exactly said, "And it is clear that if part of the United States’ nuclear capability is situated in Europe and that our military experts consider that they represent a potential threat then we will have to take appropriate retaliatory steps. What steps? Of course we must have new targets in Europe. And determining precisely which means will be used to destroy the installations that our experts believe represent a potential threat for the Russian Federation is a matter of technology. Ballistic or cruise missiles or a completely new system." ellol 04:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The key words are "part of the United States’ nuclear capability is situated in Europe". This has never happened before, even during the Soviet period. If the Americans bring their nukes to Eastern Europe, Russia will have to respond symetrically, e.g., by moving its nukes to Cuba. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes? Really? 1) The interceptor missiles are not nuclear 2) But nukes have already been deployed here , let alone the Soviet Period. Colchicum 14:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those nukes were NATO's, not American (as if it really mattered). And the Unites States is the only state that actually used this sort of weapon. So the scare is very real. Putin knows what he is talking about better than you and me. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those nukes are American, most of them in the strictest sense possible. Of course, all the American nukes are also NATO's in a sense. Putin knows what he is talking about better than you and me. I am not so sure. Does he know about circumsition or WCs better than anybody else? He cannot keep in mind everything. The interceptor missiles are not nukes. As to the scare, it is probably not that easy in a parliamentary democracy, of course, unless Russia attacks NATO first or someone else goes mad. Well, everyone can go mad, but then there is no reason to fear more right now. And the Unites States is the only state that actually used this sort of weapon ...when no particular authorizing procedure existed, during a war of defense. Well, if Putin would attack US like Imperial Japan did, I'll not object against such an action. Colchicum 15:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely you know, that there are kinds of secret information, accessible to a very tide circle of people, including the President. As Strugatsky wrote, "Burn before reading" :). You don't want to dispute, that some of information about Strategic Missiles may be of this kind? ... Surely you won't object. Vapor heated up to the temperature of several thousand degrees can't object anything. No matter in which country you would be. ellol 16:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: This would return us to the situation of the Missile Crisis. It's costly and senseless. Is that any sense, if American sites would start burning 5 minutes earlier, and less percentage of Russian nuclear capabilities would be destroyed? I don't think so. In any way, nuclear war would be a global defeat for the whole world, without a chance for anybody to win. It would kill billions and return humankind to Middle ages. Any way, Putin noted, that they wouldn't do this thing. ellol 14:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know what he said as well as you do. Let's not spoil the fun with boring quotations. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Removed the quotation. ellol 14:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Threat to bring back Cold War 

message: Half of this supposedly biographical page is occupied by the very partial examination of media freedoms in Russia. As most people living in Russia are not concerned about this (see the polls) and the section explicitly contradicts WP:UNDUE, I suggest we move it elsewhere. Instead, it would have been helpful to mention some of the topics that Putin himself considers important (see his assessment of his term here). --Ghirla-трёп- 13:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just want to say, there's no need to search for the proper place. The contents of this section is fully placed in Media freedom in Russia. I believe, the section should be deeply shortened, given there's a link to the main article. ellol 13:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Do you think kunstkamera.livejournal.com and saisisa.com are valid encyclopaedic sources? --Ghirla-трёп- 13:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are just photos, and practically no other information. Just photos do not prove anything, but they do not harm. ellol 14:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inappropriately long coverage of "media freedoms" 

message: "I think there are things of which I and the people who have worked with me can feel deservedly proud. They include restoring Russia’s territorial integrity, strengthening the state, progress towards establishing a multiparty system, strengthening the parliamentary system, restoring the Armed Forces’ potential and, of course, developing the economy. As you know, our economy has been growing by 6.9 percent a year on average over this time, and our GDP increased by 7.7 percent over the first four months of this year alone.   
When I began my work in 2000, 30 percent of our population was living below the poverty line. There has been a two-fold drop in the number of people living below the poverty line since then and the figure today is around 15 percent. By 2009-2010, we will bring this figure down to 10 percent, and this will bring us in line with the European average.   
We had enormous debts, simply catastrophic for our economy, but we have paid them off in full now. Not only have we paid our debts, but we now have the best foreign debt to GDP ratio in Europe. Our gold and currency reserve figures are well known: in 2000, they stood at just $12 billion and we had a debt of more than 100 percent of GDP, but now we have the third-biggest gold and currency reserves in the world and they increased by $90 billion over the first four months of this year alone. 
During the 1990s and even in 2000-2001, we had massive capital flight from Russia with $15 billion, $20 billion or $25 billion leaving the country every year. Last year we reversed this situation for the first time and had capital inflow of $41 billion. We have already had capital inflow of $40 billion over the first four months of this year. Russia’s stock market capitalisation showed immense growth last year and increased by more than 50 percent. This is one of the best results in the world, perhaps even the best. Our economy was near the bottom of the list of world economies in terms of size but today it has climbed to ninth place and in some areas has even overtaken some of the other G8 countries’ economies. This means that today we are able to tackle social problems. Real incomes are growing by around 12 percent a year. Real income growth over the first four months of this year came to just over 18 percent, while wages rose by 11-12 percent.  
Looking at the problems we have yet to resolve, one of the biggest is the huge income gap between the people at the top and the bottom of the scale. Combating poverty is obviously one of our top priorities in the immediate term and we still have to do a lot to improve our pension system too because the correlation between pensions and the average wage is still lower here than in Europe. The gap between incomes at the top and bottom end of the scale is still high here – a 15.6-15.7-fold difference. This is less than in the United States today (they have a figure of 15.9) but more than in the UK or Italy (where they have 13.6-13.7). But this remains a big gap for us and fighting poverty is one of our biggest priorities."
:And now please substantiate Putin's claim that these achievements are due to him. Colchicum 15:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not seen such a claim. --Ghirla-трёп- 16:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, well, thechnically you are right, he might be proud of what other people have done, although this is sort of strange. Colchicum 08:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Things are done by the state, while Putin is only the head of the state. Note: Putin sais "we", rarely "I". Or at least, "I and the people who have worked with me". ellol 18:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Things are done by the state -- It is far from obvious. The things might be done by ordinary citizens or by external circumstances (e.g. high petroleum prices, which have nothing to do with Putin). Colchicum 08:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, it's a solid opinion. Not digging into details, I believe it would do. ellol 18:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putin's opinion on his term (for processing) 

message: Why does anything added to this page about the unnatural deaths of people who are critical of Putin always removed?
wrc_wolfbrother 17:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Half of Russia is critical of Putin. If anybody voices it publicly, it changes little. ellol 17:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: There was a massacre. But not only Russian military murdered Chechen combatants and noncombatants. Also Chechens murdered civilian Russian population. And I'm afraid it all just can't be reflected adequately in a short statement. Btw, a joke told twice is twice funnier, than a joke told four times. ellol 16:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ... and who cares? The issue at hand here isn't which is worse, the Putin-led Russian Government or the Chechen rebels. The issue is, as I already stated, that all criticism of Putin, and especially the unnatural deaths of those critics, is removed ASAP. Is this an encyclopedia of information, or a Russian propaganda outlet? wrc_wolfbrother 20:17, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV?

message: I've been trying to add the comment that Putin strangely uses interpreters when conversing with english-speaking people, but someone keeps removing it.
Has it ever been explained why he feigns a lack of understanding of english, to the point of using interpreters when talking to english-speaking people?
*I believe it is usual among diplomats. It provides a number of advantages:
** You can think of your reply while the interpreter doing his job
** Eliminating chances to misunderstand the person you are talking with. E.g. Berezovsky recently made a sensation answering yes, on the question: "Do you support The Other Russia" (Later he said that he thought the question was "Do you support the other Russians)
** Eliminating chances to say something funny or stupid because of the imperfect language
** Somehow showing that he is on equal grounds with his opponent --Alex Bakharev 03:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not all diplomats do it this way, but indeed, relying on interpreters is a common practice.  Among those that have the choice (that is, that know the language under question), it's sometimes viewed as a question of image, too.  In any case, "feigning" does not belong here. Digwuren 20:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  If he speaks English, then why does he always speak through interpreters? 

message: Shouldn't it be noted that Putin laughed after he said that? QZXA2 19:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved these words to Anecdotes. ellol 07:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "worlds only true democrat" statement 

message: Historian Anne Applebaum believes that "Whether by waging cyberwarfare on Estonia, threatening the gas supplies of Lithuania, or boycotting Georgian wine and Polish meat, he [Putin] has, over the past few years, made it clear that he intends to reassert Russian influence in the former communist states of Europe, whether those states want Russian influence or not. At the same time, he has also made it clear that he no longer sees Western nations as mere benign trading partners, but rather as Cold War-style threats."  Putin is playing a dangerous game By Anne Applebaum, 05/06/2007  British historian Max Hastings also now described Putin as a "Stalin's spiritual heir" in his article "Will we have to fight Russia in this Century?", and tells that although "a return to the direct military confrontation of the Cold War is unlikely", "the notion of Western friendship with Russia is a dead letter"   A blundering Bush, Tsar Putin, and the question: will we, in this century, have to fight Russia? by Max Hastings 
I removed these quotes for now. The problem is that they seem to illustrate Western comments to Putin's proposal on Gabala Station. But, both these articles are dated June 5, while Putin's proposal was made on June 7 . So this is more of desinformation, rather than actual comments of Western analytics on Putin's proposal. ellol 07:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. We should avoid personal allegations in articles about living persons, lest they bring Wikipedia into disrepute. This project is not a soapbox. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gabala Station 

message: I had a look at the text, and noticed some problems. I changed "study judo" into "practise judo" - since I suppose that was a mistranslation from Russian. I still have no clue what is meant by "disappointed Major". The major problem concerning the language of the artticle is the mixture of British and American English.
Some of the things in the humour are trivial and could easily be deleted. However, if we do keep something about "uncanny resemblances", should not we better refer to Arnolfini Portrait. I have seen the portrait in London, and the Arnolfini-Putin likeness is indeed striking. The pregnant Flemish lady bears an uncanny resemblance to Inge Vervotte, a young Belgian politician. Considering that a number of esoteric websites quote the Arnolfini-Putin resemblance as evidence of Putin being the Anti-Christ (yes, really - eg ) I think that would be more noteworthy than some silly jokes about flying a whale to the moon (not presently relevant with all the oil money) or resembling a Harry Potter character. --Pan Gerwazy 09:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe I pointed out the resemblance in the article about two years ago. If someone keeps deleting it, he should explain himself here. Anyway, the portrait should be mentioned. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not deleted there. Only someone sourced it, and the source was later deleted. I have put it here as well. Perhaps there is a better link than mine - if we use that one we will have to add something about that Antichrist sillyness.  Just noticed that most art critics seem to think that the lady is not pregnant - no doubt someone will link that to Putin's ideas about Russia's demographics (which according to some sources are not as bad as they look, thanks however mainly to immigration from Central Asia). Is there a Russian source for that "disappointing"? --Pan Gerwazy 16:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some issues 

message: I think it would be great to have a section placing Putin's views in context of the political spectrum. They may look trivial to some Russians, but in fact they aren't. Colchicum 14:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. Putin recently told that "We have fewer such (dark) pages than do some countries, and they were less terrible than in some countries," ... "We have never used nuclear weapons against civilians and we have never dumped chemical weapons on thousands of kilometres of land as was the case in Vietnam." . He probably forget that Soviet atomic bomb was tested on Soviet soldiers and civilians in Kazakhstan (many thousands died), and that defoliants were used on the cotton plantations in Soviet Asian republics. So, when Soviet schoolchildren were forced to work at these cotton fields, they contracted a lot of practically the same agent orange as in Vietnam. The difference: everything was tried on own people, not abroad.Biophys 06:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: God Bless America. ellol 17:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Some more issues

message: Marktwain403's edits to the Media freedom seem completely inappropriate.  It makes the section way, way too long.  It's also a very poor cut-and-paste job from the already-existing article on the very same topic.  It's also, as others have argued, inappropriate for this biography.  I'd like others to weigh in before I revert Marktwain403's latest edit.  --ElKevbo 02:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go ahead ElKevbo, that's what the separate article was created for. There is no need to repeat the information twice, especially as it is not directly connected to Putin's biography.59.101.213.17 04:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  I took what appeared to be some of the most pertinent and interesting info from the other article to use as a summary in this article.  I'm hoping that both Marktwain403 and our anonymous friend(s) will try to discuss their proposed changes here this time instead of reverting without discussion.  --ElKevbo 15:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: A paragraph or two would be most appropriate.  Anything more would be giving this undue weight in this particular biographical article.  I'd be more than happy to let you write the summary if you can keep it appropriately short and well-referenced!  The bulk of the material, however, belongs in the main Media freedom in Russia‎ article and not in this one.  --ElKevbo 21:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Marktwain403's edits to Media freedom section

message: I removed the "Selected quotes" section yesterday but that change was reverted without discussion.  I assert that the inclusion of such a section is inherently POV as it is the work of Wikipedia editors cherry-picking quotes they (the Wikipedia editors) believe represent Putin or his views.  Further, all such quotes belong in Wikiquote or, at best, integrated into the body of the article in the appropriate place(s).  --ElKevbo 15:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Selected quotes

message: Ellol, Why are you such a fan of Putin that you don't want any negative information in the biography?  All of your edits serve to show him in the best possible light when in fact he is rapidly becoming a dictator in Russia. Your edits are not from a neutral point of view.
*In fact, Wikipedia is not a place to label someone "a dictator" and push such a point of view. If there's a positive and relevant information, it must be included as well. Garret Beaumain 08:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fans of Putin Influence this Biography

message: Vladimir Putin served in Finland as young KGB officer at Soviet Embassy in Helsinki and later in Consulate of USSR in Turku. I think this Finland period should be also be mentioned in main article, before he was being transfered to DDR.
According to one French TV document Vladimir Putin´s mother is claimed to be a daughter of ethnic Russian father and Georgian mother. She claimed that her son was taken away from her from Georgia to Leningrad by her boy´s grandfather. Any prove of this story?
According the just published claim in Helsingin Sanomat 31.07.2007 Vladimir Putin has from his father´s side Tver Karelian roots as claimed among the Karelians in Daughter Karelia (Tver),
Spiridon Putin is said to be a Karelian, not Russian. 
JN
:The French TV story you allude to is not really absent from the article. But you got the story wrong: according to that fable, Putin's mother was unmarried whzen she gave birth to him (casual relationship with a Russian guy who, unknown to her, was already married) and later married a Georgian man and went to Georgia where she still lives, unbothered by the whole world (except for journalists specializing in hoaxes) and surrounded by Vladimir's half-brothers and half-sisters. According to this story, Vladimir's stepfather did not like him being there and so, when his mother's sister suggested taking care of her nephew, his mother agreed willingly: one mouth less to feed. With Victorian cruelty, Vladimir's aunt then disposed of him in an orphanage, from where he got adopted by an elderly childless couple, who surprise, surprise, were also called Putin and, in order to make a natural birth claim more plausible (it is then claimed that over a particular age, women were no longer allowed to conceive in the Soviet Union) made Vladimir three years younger than he really was - simultaneously explaining why Vladimir was such a good pupil at school (was he really?). All we know for sure is that there is an old lady, called Putina, in a God-forsaken hamlet in Georgia, who claims to recognize her son in Vladimir Putin.
:The problem with the Finnish story: though it probably is a hundred times more plausible than the Georgian one (and I say that without having researched it), we need some corroboration. By the way, if you want to contribute, please take an account, since this is an article which has been vandalized a lot by anonymous editors. --Pan Gerwazy 09:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing from the main article 

message: Section about anekdotes was removed by an user as trivia section. Perhaps it yet worth looking on it  to rewrite it in a proper manner or so. ellol 21:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is all I want you and others to do; incorporate some of it into the text if needed and send some of the quotes to Wikiquote. Then leave the rest out. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anekdotes

message: Substituted at 20:58, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment