Talk:Zero Patience

message: I'm very concerned/upset/nervous that there's no mention of Benjamin Plener in this article. He was instrumental to developing this plot, he acted in a MAJOR role, and he's an overall swell guy.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.26.24 (talk) 01:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  b (MoS): 
#:: 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#:: 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#:: 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:Fair representation without bias: 
#:: 
#It is stable.
#:No edit wars etc.: 
#:: 
#It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
#:a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 
#:: 
#Overall: 
#:Pass/Fail: 
#:: </div>
Comments:
#Infoboxes (both for film and soundtrack) should not contain any red links
#The cast section needs to conform to WP:FILM's guidelines.
#Ditto for the plot section. Read as a stand-alone section, it either doesn't make much sense, or doesn't go into enough detail, I can't tell which.
#All one-two sentence paragraphs must either be expanded or merged with the surrounding paragraphs, as they cannot stand alone.
#The "Awards and nominations" section should be merged with the "Critical reception" section, as it is too short to stand alone (and per precedent. See Jurassic Park (film))
#The lead needs to conform to WP:LEAD. Specifically, it must not contain any information that is not present in the body of the article. For example, if one started reading the article without reading the lead, they'd have no idea what the background behind the film was; Dugas' name is not mentioned once in the body of the article. Also, it should summarize every major point made in the article; as it stands, there is little, if anything, about plot or production in the lead.
Usually when a review encounters a small number of problems, it is placed on hold to allow for the changes to be made. In this case, however, I feel that this article diverges far enough from the recommended style of WP:FILM that it would require a substantial rewrite, then benefit from a review from fresh eyes, before it could be acceptable for Good Article status. For that reason, I am failing the article for now. If you feel that this review is in error, you may take it to good article reassessment. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 03:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Review 

message: I am mystified by your comments.
* Infoboxes: can you point out to me where it says that infoboxes can't have redlinks?
* Cast section: I read the linked section and have no clue what you think needs to happen to bring the section into compliance.
* Plot section: What specifically is confusing to you about the plot section?
* Short paragraphs: specifically what paragraphs are you referencing?
* Awards: what guideline says they should not be a separate section?
* Lead: your comments are just generally confusing.
Please provide specific guidance as to the issues with the article. Otto4711 (talk) 07:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *OK, well first, this is not an attempt to promote the article to FA, so judging it against FA articles and FA standards isn't really reasonable. As for redlinks, the notion that the infobox can't contain redlinks makes no sense. Should the names of the producers, the composer and the lead actors be omitted because someone hasn't written articles about them yet? As for the plot, the last film article I got promoted was initially failed because the reviewer thought the plot summary was too long, so it's difficult to know what to adhere to when fails are promulgated in part on diametrically opposed criteria. Short paragraphs...can you link me to the style guideline that says that there can never be one- or two-sentence paragraphs? As for the rest, you're making things more clear and I can work on them. Otto4711 19:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Providing you with examples to FA Film articles is a courtesy to show you how the standards are applied to Wikipedia's articles. I'm not a big fan of lowering standards because it's "only GA." As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between GA and FA is that GA is "one person says that this is a good article." Naturally, for various reasons, this may lead to some not-good good articles. FA is "the consensus between many people is that this is an excellent article." Very rarely do I see the value in "letting it go" when deciding whether or not to promote an article for GA. As for the redlinks, aside from me subjectively believing that it uglifies the infobox, is that much of the information can be repeated within the body of the article and linked there. Furthermore, if you feel that they're truly notable enough to deserve their own article, then why not write a five-minute stub? Problem solved. For plot length, I suggest following the WP:FILM guidelines that I linked you to. Not much a reviewer can do if you can point to concrete guidelines for length. For the short paragraphs, I can't find the link because I don't think there is one. Specifically, in certain situations (say before a quote) it makes sense to have smaller paragraphs. In most cases, however, it makes the prose look very choppy, which in turns affects the flow of the article. This may be subjective, I've seen plenty of GAs that don't abide by this, but that doesn't make them any less choppy in my mind. Especially too, it's such an easy thing to fix. Cheers, CP 03:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zero Patience GA fail 

message: *Infoboxes: I'm not sure where exactly the policy is, it may just be common sense. A random sampling of FA film articles (Jaws, Jurassic Park, Batman, Blade Runner and Borat) all show this policy to be the case, however.
*Cast: Look carefully again at the two examples that relate to your style. The first (Halloween) discusses the casting in the context of the production in prose form, not just a list of people in a paragraph as you have. The other (Witchfinder General) has Actor as Role: Brief one-two sentence explanation of character/casting/role. Clicking on either link will enable you to observe how this is performed in practice.
*Plot: If I could tell you that, it wouldn't be confusing. Let me try, however. First of all, the recommended length is at least 400 words. While I'm not a stickler for exact numbers, this summary is less than half of that size, which should tell you that it's not detailed enough. Furthermore, it is not, as per WP:FILM's recommendations, self-contained. When I do movie reviews, I specifically read the plot section first to make sure that it makes sense as a stand alone section. Note that WP:FILM says that "plot details and actor names already mentioned in the lead section, and/or mentioned in a cast section, are repeated here." Reading just the plot, for example, I have no idea what "Patient Zero" is, which takes everything out of context and makes it confusing. Furthermore, while the entire section lacks detail I believe, it's most notable in the subplot section. How does this subplot unfold? Progress? Conclude? No information is provided whatsoever. The plot summary is not meant to be one that you'd find in a newspaper - it's meant to be complete; "spoilers" and all.
*Short paragraphs: The ones that are one-two sentences long. Specifically, the second paragraph in the lead, the second paragraph of "Production," "Cast," the second paragraph of "Plot summary," "Awards and nominations"
*Awards: You can have them in a separate section if you really want them like that, but they cannot be prose because of the one-two sentence paragraph rule. So I suppose you could expand it if you wanted to. But again, a quick survey of FA Film articles...
*Lead: I can't really make that any clearer. WP:LEAD has two major points, both of which have been violated: 1) The lead must not contain information that is not present in the body of the article (Intro contains the only references to Dugas and the main body of the text overall would make little sense if one did not read the lead) and 2) The introduction must summarize all major points/headings that are included in the body of the article (Intro does not contain much, if anything, about plot or production)
:*OK, well first, this is not an attempt to promote the article to FA, so judging it against FA articles and FA standards isn't really reasonable. As for redlinks, the notion that the infobox can't contain redlinks makes no sense. Should the names of the producers, the composer and the lead actors be omitted because someone hasn't written articles about them yet? As for the plot, the last film article I got promoted was initially failed because the reviewer thought the plot summary was too long, so it's difficult to know what to adhere to when fails are promulgated in part on diametrically opposed criteria. Short paragraphs...can you link me to the style guideline that says that there can never be one- or two-sentence paragraphs? As for the rest, you're making things more clear and I can work on them. Otto4711 19:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Providing you with examples to FA Film articles is a courtesy to show you how the standards are applied to Wikipedia's articles. I'm not a big fan of lowering standards because it's "only GA." As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between GA and FA is that GA is "one person says that this is a good article." Naturally, for various reasons, this may lead to some not-good good articles. FA is "the consensus between many people is that this is an excellent article." Very rarely do I see the value in "letting it go" when deciding whether or not to promote an article for GA. As for the redlinks, aside from me subjectively believing that it uglifies the infobox, is that much of the information can be repeated within the body of the article and linked there. Furthermore, if you feel that they're truly notable enough to deserve their own article, then why not write a five-minute stub? Problem solved. For plot length, I suggest following the WP:FILM guidelines that I linked you to. Not much a reviewer can do if you can point to concrete guidelines for length. For the short paragraphs, I can't find the link because I don't think there is one. Specifically, in certain situations (say before a quote) it makes sense to have smaller paragraphs. In most cases, however, it makes the prose look very choppy, which in turns affects the flow of the article. This may be subjective, I've seen plenty of GAs that don't abide by this, but that doesn't make them any less choppy in my mind. Especially too, it's such an easy thing to fix. Cheers, CP 03:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Addendum per nominator request

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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