Talk:Berber languages

message: This would be a good place to furnish the pronunciation of "Tamazight".
Kortoso (talk) 22:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Added to Central Atlas. Copy here if you like. — kwami (talk) 10:10, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed there and here as well. See discussion there. - Thnidu (talk) 05:20, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation

message: What is a sub-language? —Tamfang (talk) 23:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  sub-explanation sought 

message: Was Ali Baba from the Arabian Night a Berber? 86.176.190.64 (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ali Baba 

message: Why is the noun system described while the verbal one isn't? I think it is more interesting and informative from the viewpoint of comparative Afroasiatic linguistics.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.191.241.225 (talk) 13:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the verbal system? 

message: Ethnic Berbers are considered to be the bulk of the populations of the Maghreb countries. What does the term ethnic berber mean?
I suggest to replace this vague sentence by The bulk of the bulk of the populations of the Maghreb countries are considered to have Berber ancestors. Nahabedere (talk) 09:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic Berber 

message: I can't see a difference between the first group (it consists in changing the initial vowel of the noun, and adding a suffix -n) and the third group (it combines a change of vowels with the suffix -n). Where's the difference between argaz → irgazen and azur → izuran? --androl (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  three plural forms? 

message: ISO now supports the incipient standard language. We have a stub needing expansion. — kwami (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Standard Moroccan Tamazight]] 

message: As areas of Libya south and west of Tripoli such as the Nafusa Mountains were liberated from the control of forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi in early summer 2011, [...] Couldn't find a more neutral formulation? The idea is the fact that Gaddafi's control was over, we don't need any opinion here about whether people became liberated, since it's not the topic and is a sensitive political issue. - 92.100.181.160 (talk) 17:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaddafi 

message: https://archive.org/details/NotesDeLexicographieBerbre
07:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes de lexicographie berbère 

message: https://archive.org/details/DeNomineEtGenerePopulorumQuiBerberiVulgoDicuntur
Rajmaan (talk) 07:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  De nomine et genere populorum qui Berberi vulgo dicuntur 

message: Hello Wikipedians, since this conversation in 2013 the common name has definitely shifted to Amazigh languages as awareness has grown and the Amazigh language movement has developed. It is now co-official in several countries as 'Amazigh' rather than 'Berber'. It has a new standard form, and other areas of Wikipedia have already adopted the endonym. Although I respect that 5 years ago Berber may have still been more prevalent (even if offensive), now in 2018 I think there is not a strong case to support maintaining this anachronistic (and offensive) name. I propose we move the article to Amazigh languages! Anyone disagree?Paolorausch (talk) 23:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: In support of moving the article to Amazigh languages. Sambasoccer27 (talk) 00:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving to Amazigh languages to reflect current norms 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Berbers which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: Does anyone have a source for the pronunciation of the term "Tamazight" in English? Wiktionary currently gives a form with the last syllable as /zaɪt/ which seems implausible, as if it were a borrowing into Middle English. As a native English speaker though, I can't say it's cropped up enough in speech for me to have some sense of what the norm is, and it's entirely possible that my /zɪɣt/ or /zɪgd/ (depending on how much I'm anglicising) is a weird spelling pronunciation from lack of exposure to it in speech Tristanjlroberts (talk) 20:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't a full answer but my understanding is that the spelling is a transliteration meant to represent a native pronunciation close to /tamazɪɣt/. I have doubts whether there's any standard English pronunciation since it's not a common English word ("Berber" has been the Western designation for a long time). I've had a quick look but couldn't find anything that would suggest a clear answer to that specifically. Will keep an eye out though. R Prazeres (talk) 03:13, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  The pronunciation with a diphthong is attested here. Lexico only has Amazigh, with /-iːk/ for -igh. –Austronesier (talk) 07:46, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  English Pronunciation of Tamazight 

message: Berber was originally comes from roman word 'barbaros'. and it comes to other languages due to translating from roman works. but the translators maintained the word 'Berber'. But we as amazigh people. we don't want to be known as Berbers. or Berber speakers. because we are Imazighen whom  speak Amazigh.
It's a part of our identity to be known as Imazighen not berbers. So we need to look again in the term of 'Berber' in order to modify it as long as we "Imazighen" don't want to admit the term 'Berber'
Berbers = Imazighen / Amazigh people.
Berber language = Tamazight / Amazigh language.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipshel (talk • contribs) 17:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Berber should be no more used. We should use Amazigh/Tamazight 

message: I would like to point out that on 17:20, 7 November 2020, Phonology and Grammar was deleted for referring to a singular "Berber language" and not Berber Languages like the name of this article, and not citing any sources. I'm not complaining about that, I'm casting a raised eyebrow at the grammar being RE-written, translated from the German Wikipedia, and once again referring to a singular "Berber language"Jimydog000 (talk) 10:17, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: A typological characterization of a language family of course can include an overarching discussion of phonology and grammar of the individual languages, pointing out both commonalities and internal diversity. That's what the best scholars do in the best sources, like Kossmann in his chapter "Berber" in Frayzyngier & Shay (2012), The Afroasiatic Languages, Cambridge University Press. As long as it's sourced and doesn't create the misleading impression of a single "Berber language" (which is not the case here), everything is fine. –Austronesier (talk) 12:43, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

text: I disagree that everything is fine, as the original grammar and phonology cited some sources. And you should of seen the atrocity that was the phoneme table before I fixed it. I would also like to echo the other discussions on this talk page and reccomend a seperate article called Tamazight (Berber) be created. Jimydog000 (talk) 21:11, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar and phonology 

message: I noticed that in the subclassification section, no single subclassification system is given as the most prominent, and no consensus is given on what "Eastern Berber" refers to; but the infobox for the page gives the impression that there is a general consensus on a certain subclassification system, as displayed on the map, and "Eastern Berber" lists "Siwi, Nafusi, Sokna, Ghadamès, Awjila" as its languages with no qualification. Have there perhaps been developments in classifying Berber languages that is not reflected in the subclassification subsection, or does the infobox not reliably reflect the current citeable understanding of Berber languages?  Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 03:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subclassification and Infobox 

message: Encyclopædia Universalis, the French-language Britannica writes:  (Berbères : la langue. Authors are: Salem Chaker, , and Paulette Galand-Pernet. All academics, linguists, experts in the field.
I added this range to the infobox, I don't understand why you reverted @M.Bitton claiming "Please have some respect for those who are discussing the subject". Indeed, this range of 13–30 is also close to what is already in the rest of the article as the lowest recent estimates we currently have are 7.5m in Morocco, 4.5m in Algeria, and ~1m elsewhere (total = 13m) while the highest estimates we have are 13.8m in Morocco, 8.8m in Algeria, and 3.6m elsewhere (total = 26m). So it's a good summary of the sources we list, and it's backed by a RS. The note "Estimating the number of Berber speakers is very difficult and figures are often contested." seems also useful to explain why there's such a huge range.
What should we do? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The Infobox is meant to summarize (and not supplant) the key facts that appear in the article. Since the latter is being discussed, we wait until it's finished before creating the Infobox. M.Bitton (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. Then, what about adding in the article, in Berber_languages#Population (before the breakdown by country): "Estimating the number of Berber speakers is very difficult and figures are often contested. Estimates range from 13 to 30 million worldwide depending on the sources." a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:58, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You're still trying to put the cart before the horse. I suggest we finish the breakdown by country first (Algeria is almost done, Morocco's next I guess). M.Bitton (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we could do both in parallel, but okay to wait. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox: total number of speakers 

message: The 2022 census was conducted from Sept 25th to Oct 9th and its results should be published soon (other source). The census contained a question "Quelle est la langue lue et écrite ? 0-Aucune 1-Arabe 2-Amazigh 3-Français 4-Anglais 5-Autres". We'll have data on Algerian people able to both read and write Amazigh. Too bad they didn't include a question about spoken language(s) as well. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please also note that the next Moroccan census will start in September 2024. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  2022 Algerian census 

message: Not sure why but I'm having some kind of issue moving the videos of people speaking Tashelhiyt / Central Atlas Tamazight in visual mode... someone else might want to tweak their placement. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 11:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speaker video placement 

message: The source he uses only documents usage in Kabylia, I replaced his source with more generalist ones, but he keeps reverting it. Taluzet (talk) 11:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think Jane E. Goodman is referring to when she says "these groups..." after mentioning all Berber ethnic groups in Morocco, Algeria, Mali and Niger? All you're doing is deleting sources and replacing them with outdated and inaccessible ones. Skitash (talk) 11:52, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Person reverts all my edits documenting the history of the use of Amazigh as an autonym 

message: The person in this video speak a mixt of Berber and Moroccan Arabic with high % of Moroccan Arabic vs Berber words.
Please consider to replace with a better representation with a fully 100% Berber speaking talk 105.152.164.210 (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abderrahmane from Cuba Video 

message: The common ancestor of Berber languages (and genetics) lived just 2000 years ago. So, all languages that existed earlier cannot be called "Berber", they're "para-Berber" at most, in cases in which they actually are. It's a shame that Wikipedia doesnt have an article on Ancient Libyan language, which is obviously a very ancient language and played an important part in history. --95.24.66.180 (talk) 16:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: See Numidian language. –Austronesier (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Berber" as term for ancient languages