Talk:Wannsee Conference/Archive 1

message: Could the following paragraph be clarifed:
:Dr. Josef Buhler pushed Heydrich to take off the final solution in the General Government. As far as he was concerned, the main problem of General Government was an overdeveloped black market that deorganises the work of the authorities. He saw a remedy in solving the Jewish question in the country as fast as possible. An additional point in favour was that there were no transportation problems here.
What does "take off the final solution in the General Government" mean? I'm not totally clear on "black market that deorganises the work of the authorities". Then, how does genocide solve the deoraganisation? Finally, why are there "no transporation problems"?
EmRick 00:15, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarify 

message: If you check the link to the Wannsee Protocol translation, you will see this paragraph, which explains your questions:
"State Secretary Dr. Buehler stated that the General
Government would welcome it if the final solution of this problem
could be begun in the General Government, since on the one hand
transportation does not play such a large role here nor would
problems of labor supply hamper this action.  Jews must be
removed from the territory of the General Government as quickly
as possible, since it is especially here that the Jew as an
epidemic carrier represents an extreme danger and on the other
hand he is causing permanent chaos in the economic structure of
the country through continued black market dealings.  Moreover,
of the approximately 2 1/2 million Jews concerned, the majority
is unfit for work."
--Space_Balls 19:12, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  General Government 

message: I'd like to see the Numerberg piece removed or edited. Anything said at the Nuremberg trials is, as far as I am concerned, completely contentious. It is known that false confessions were beaten out of SS officers and that some SS officers would have done and said anything the Allied told them to escape the hangman's noose... even though they were killed anyway, just so they couldn't recant or be cross examined.
:You'd think somebody might have said something at the time.Gzuckier 16:19, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nuremberg 

message: According to Conspiracy, the attendants were told to distroy their copies of the transcription, but one survived to be discovered after the war.
Is that so?
--Error 00:44, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. The copy retained by Marin Luther survived, and was extensively quoted from at Nuremburg. Anthony.bradbury 17:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcription 

message: The 5th paragraph used to say:
"The protocol of the meeting was prepared by Adolf Eichmann aided by Reinhard Heydrich and does not explicitly mention mass murder; Eichmann later admitted at his trial that the actual language used during the conference was much more blunt and included terms such as "extermination" and "annihilation".
My edit read this way instead:
The protocol of the meeting was prepared by Adolf Eichmann aided by Reinhard Heydrich, does not explicitly mention mass murder and according to the Wannsee Conference, Hitler wanted to legally move Jews outside of German borders as mentioned in the Wannsee Protocol in the 7th paragraph "The aim of all this was to cleanse German living space of Jews in a legal manner."
Unfortunately, the "Wannsee Conference" was edited back to its original form and protected the article from me editing it again. I did not edit this in an ill manner. I gave concrete evidence of what Hitler really wanted. I thought it was unfair to list "extermination" and annihilation" since Eichmann said this during his Nuremberg testimony. Of course hes going to say whatever, he didnt want to die, so he made stuff up on trial. I dont think that it was factual or even relevant.
Apparently whomever re-edited this can't handle the truth. I presented factual proof on this topic in a responsible fashion and you couldn't stand to hear it. That simply proves what I've been saying all along. Jews are re-writing history to suit their own means.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions on this.
And people are getting smart to that "6 million" figure jews killed during WWII also. Auschwitz lowered its estimates almost 10 years ago from 4 million to 1 million killed there... a 3 million person difference, bringing the amount of jews killed to 3 million, not 6 million. A big difference!
A big difference. So 3 million is better than 6 million. Interesting.
How many million is better than 2 million? 10 million? There are those who say (Jung chang) that Mao ze Dong killed 70 million. Would 60 million have been better? It's irrelevant! They killed huge numbers of people, that's enough to brand them as wicked. That they did it ultimately for their own self aggrandizement brands them as evil.
:Seriously, stop with the old "Auschwitz's numbers lie," which requires willful ignorance and a desire to manipulate data to state with a straight face.  No historian has ever used the 4 million number on a plaque to calculate death totals, as Holocaust deniers well know.  From the article on Auschwitz: For many years, a memorial plaque placed at the camp by the Soviet authorities and the Polish communist government stated that 4 million people had been murdered at Auschwitz. This number was never taken seriously by Western historians, and was never used in any of the calculations of the death toll at Auschwitz (which have generally remained consistantly around 1-1.5 million for the last sixty years) or for the total deaths in the Holocaust as a whole. After the collapse of the Communist government, the plaque was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of Nizkor: "Deniers often use the "Four Million Variant" as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent. If they can't keep their numbers straight, their reasoning goes, how can we say that their evidence for the Holocaust is credible? One must wonder which historians they speak of, as most have been remarkably consistent in their estimates of a million or so dead. In short, all of the denier's blustering about the "Four Million Variant" is a specious attempt to envelope the reader into their web of deceit, and it can be discarded after the most rudimentary examination of published histories." --Goodoldpolonius2 20:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re-writing history to suit your own means 

message: Dr. Josef Bühler pushed Heydrich to implement the final solution in the General Government. As far as he was concerned, the main problem within the General Government was an overdeveloped black market that disorganised the work of the authorities. He saw a remedy in solving the Jewish question in the country as fast as possible. An additional point in favour was that there were no transportation problems there.
''
Apart from being hardly understandable without the context (black market, general government, etc.), the paragraph uses the Nazi term "Jewish question" without quotation marks and without explaining it. The term presupposes there is a problem with the Jews in Germany (or in general with Jews) and it is therefore completely inappropriate for an encyclopedia article to repeat it unthinkingly. Ben  T/C  00:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wording 

message: After spending an hour trying to edit what seemed unnecessarily confusing and opaque, I decided to start over. It’s not complete, certainly not perfect, but is better.  I’ve tried to focus primarily upon the reason for the conference and secondarily upon the reason that historians of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust focus upon the conference. 
Why was the conference necessary?  That should be the starting point for explaining it.  Doing anything on a mass scale—including deportations and killings—requires organization and subsequent bureaucratic coordination even in totalitarian states.  Things don’t just happen and in the case of Germany in 1942 the systematic elimination of European Jewry was not happening as the Nazi state wished it to happen.  Calling together the senior ministers and officials was a way to “cut thru the red tape.”  
An equally important reason for the conference was the resistance of many of the main German civilian and quasi-civilian bureaucracies to making anti-Jewish measures a priority.  This is not to say that these ministers sympathized with the Jews.  On the contrary. They felt that they had competing priorities, however, and many of the civilian bureaucrats felt that the insistence by the SS to give pride of place to the “Jewish Question” was getting in the way of addressing these myriad other problems.   It wasn’t “rational.”  It is important to understand this aspect of the conference.  Destruction was always at the heart of the Nazi ideology but for nearly a decade a lot of people, including some Nazis, believed that it was about creation.  Wannsee is the turning point—where the SS made clear to those representing the Nazi German state that reason for Nazi Germany was not winning the war, reclaiming lost lands, providing work opportunities for Germans or any of the other supposed themes and impulses for the post-1933 era.  It was all about destroying the Jews.  If the rest was lost, so be it.Forthecommongood 17:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellently done. It would be great if you could add references as well. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:09, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

text: You are right, but I am always amazed at the number of Holocaust deniers who come to articles like this one and make statements like "they never said explicitly that they were going to kill the Jews."  I keep hoping that nobody gets taken in by patent nonsense like this (for the reasons you state), but it is always best to be explicit in Wikipedia, and not give those who want to deny genocide any wiggle room. I have seen many less attacks on the victim counts of the Holocaust since I added 6+ references to different sources about the number of people killed in the main article, so I try to be as clear as possible in addressing these attacks up front.   --Goodoldpolonius2 05:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: What's with the evolution bashing? Consistent with Nazi racial theories which were explicitly evolutionary in their approach (my emphasis). This sentence doesn't fit with the flow of the article, and IMO it just looks like some creationist attempt to make a spurious link between evolution and the Nazis. I'm removing it. Dancing Meerkat 12:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evolution reference 

message: thumb|400px|left
Here is the page of the Wannsee Conference minutes in which the number of Jews in each country was enumerated. I doubt this was done for the purpose of sending them Christmas cards. Adam 13:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minutes 

message: I'm confused by the protocol section.  The first thing it says makes sense: The minutes of the meeting discussed a change from getting rid of Jews by encouraging their emigration to instead forcibly deporting them, organizing them into work gangs, and outright killing them.  But then it says something confusing:
:Deportation was not an end in itself. Forcibly transportating the Jews out of the territories held or conquered by Germany and its allies was a measure taken not simply to remove Jews from Nazi controlled territory but to better facilitate organizing those deported into work brigades.
If we're speaking of people deported "out of the territories held or conquered by Germany and its allies", how could the people thus deported possibly be organized by the Nazis into work brigades?  Presumably the work brigades were organized on territory held or conquered by Germany or its allies? --Delirium 13:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  protocol section is hard to follow 

message: This is from a review on Amazon of Arthur R. Butz's book, "Hoax of the Twentieth Centrury:  by Michael Santomauro:
<<<Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January 1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so, Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail." [5]>>> Footnote [5] is <<<Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), Jan. 30, 1992. 
>>> 
Why is such a different view being expressed by a Jewish historian?
:Well, if you were interested in an answer, you could read Yehuda Bauer instead of regaling us with fourth hand questions sourced from some egoboost spammed over a dozen reviews in Amazon who repeats the Denier Litany, freely available word for word on a simple Web search. Gzuckier 17:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish Historian With Different Opinion 

message: As promised I have rewritten this article and archived all this rather silly and irrelevant talk. Any attempt to add revisionist nonsense to this article will be reverted. Adam 13:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying you will revert only material which is patently "nonsense", or are you saying you will deem any material associated with revisionism automatically to be "nonsense"? Wulfilia 08:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Will you consider material to be nonsense merely because it is associated with revisionism? Wulfilia 04:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

text: You are a known Holocaust denier, and this will be taken into account by all who read your comments.--Anthony.bradbury 22:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving 

message: Perhaps as the "Adam-Approved Forum" or something along those lines. Seriously, it's a talk page and you shouldn't just automatically assume your POV is correct. Discussion and exchanging idead, facts, and sources will produce the best article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.108.17.7 (talk) 16:45, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-name this page? 

message: I question the accuracy of the opening remark: "The purpose of the conference was to plan the 'Final solution...'"  I guess it depends on exactly what is meant by "plan", but it sounds as if the main issue was open before the conference and decided during it.  This contradicts the more accurate statement later in the article: "It thus became necessary to bring together representatives of all the relevant departments to explain to them what was intended and how it was to be carried out, and to make it clear that this undertaking was done on the highest authority of the Reich and could not be resisted."  In other words the main purpose was to inform not to plan, and no important decisions were made.  I propose changing "plan" to "inform senior Nazi's of plans for", but there are other options.  --Zerotalk 12:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's a fair comment. The main purpose of the conference, as revealed in the minutes, was to clarify that Jews and half-Jews (with some exceptions) would be deported to the East - anyone who refuses to believe that this means to Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, Maidenek or Belsec has his head in the sand - and that the SS would be in charge of the operation. It is clear that the intent, as shown in the document signed by Goering and quoted at the conference by Heydrich, was to notify all relevant departments of the plans alrady formulated by the SS. It is assumed that there was a verbal directive from Hitler, which has not been definitively attested to, although the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.--Anthony.bradbury 18:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: On the date of the conference there were 3-4 million Jews in Poland; 500,000 in Hungary; perhaps 5 million in the USSR, which at that time the Nazi government expected ultimately to control, and smaller but significant numbers in France, belgium, Holland, Scandinavia and, of course, in Great Britain. There were small numbers in the Baltic states, but, as reported at the conference, none in Estonia. Incidentally, according to the Simon Wiesenthal institute, at the end of the war in Europe there were still some 7,000 Jews in Berlin!--Anthony.bradbury 11:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To plan or to inform? 

message: I have made a minor edit. Heydrich was, at the time of receipt of the directive from Goering, only a Gruppenfuhrer. He was promoted to Obergruppenfuhrer on 27 9 41.--Anthony.bradbury 21:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rank 

message: I have added a few words to the first now paragraph, to clarify that not all attenders were confirmed Nazis. Kritzinger certainly was not, and possibly Neumann.--Anthony.bradbury 17:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attendees 

message: Didn't they plan to liquiadate the Slavs of Europe in similar breakdowns to the Jews, extermination and work camps, etc. Wasn't this phase two of the grand plan. Londo06 22:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe: certainly Hitler is on record as not wanting Slavs in the Third Reich, although that did not stop Himmmler from recruiting them to the SS in 1944. But they were not discussed, as far as the surviving minutes show, at Wannsee.--Anthony.bradbury 22:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  27 million Slavs 

message: This phrase in the quotation (from Browning) doesn't make sense. I imagine the original German is 'scheel ansehen' which means 'to pull a face (at someone)' - and the thing is lifted from Kaiser Wilhelm II's 'Hunnenrede' of 1900. I was tempted to correct the translation, but I didn't do so as I don't know at which point the mistranslation arose. In other words, it's possible that as a quotation it's mechanically correct. Norvo 13:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If someone has a copy of the source from which this quotation is taken, then it is not a problem - we can check if the quote itself is the problem or a translation on this site. If the quote is as it is written, then there is no point in changing. Ultimately, we could look at a source copy of the minutes themselves in German. ck lostsword •  T  •  C  13:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This quote is, of course, from the meeting of July 16 between Hitler, Goering and senior personnel and not from the discussion at Wannsee. I do not have a copy of the original in German, but the translation of the minute made by Martin Bormann was given in evidence at Nuremberg.--Anthony.bradbury"talk" 14:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Look sideways' ? 

message: The article currently seems to credit Christian Gerlach's thesis that the Conference's purpose changed after it was reset, and that originally the Final Solution wasn't the topic -- wasn't even decided yet.  I'm an amateur on the subject, but is that anything like a consensus view?  Christopher Browning doesn't buy it, I know from his endnotes in The Origins of the Final Solution, but Michael Burleigh does in his survey of the Third Reich.
Any experts care to comment or edit?  ----Andersonblog 21:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gerlach taken as gospel? 

message: Białystok is merely a city in Poland, and it's entire population was not 400,000 (and isn't even now). --HanzoHattori (talk) 03:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Bezirk Bialystok is what is being meant? This should be clarified.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  21:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You are probably correct. Mtsmallwood (talk) 03:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Bialystok" 

message: I have removed the link;  it leads to Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation, and not the individual referenced in this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.84.77 (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Who was a jew-hater, too  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.211.112 (talk) 11:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Martin Luther" 

message: An archival photograph dated 1973 shows the text of a memorial plaque on the building where the Wannsee Conference was held. The text, in German:
IM DIESEM HAUS FAND IM JANUAR 1942 DIE BERÜCHTIGTE WANNSEE-KONFERENZ STATT
DEM GEDENKEN DER DURCH NATIONALSOZIALISTISCHE GEWALTHERRSCHAFT UMGEKOMMENEN JÜDISCHEN MITMENSCHEN
The photographer is the late Miriam Novitch; I have no further information at present. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The letter is on Heydrich's letterhead, it was sent from Prague, and it has his signature at the end. It is addressed to "Dear Party Comrade Luther." It has a Foreign Ministry stamp showing that it was received there. It gives the date of the cancelled meeting in the first paragraph and the date and place of the rescheduled meeting towards the end. So the typed letter is clearly an invitation from Heydrich to Luther. Are you saying that the handwritten notes on the letter are by Luther, declining the invitation? This makes no sense since Luther did in fact attend. So I think you are mistaken. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text of memorial plaque 

message: I am not a GA reviewer, but I would like to see this article improved. I am sure that the GA reviewer will ask for more citations; currently there are major elements that are unreferenced, such as the "List of attendees" and "Fates of the attendees" sections in their entirety. The "list of the numbers of Jews in the various European countries" should be split into its own section and referenced as well.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  21:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wannsee Conference and GAN 

message: Piotrus' comments immediately above are valid, and the tags he added have remained for a week without any attempt by the nominator or anyone else to address those concerns. Therefore, I am quick-failing the article for GA. Please feel free to re-nominate once these issues have been addressed. Acdixon (talk • contribs • iki=wikipedia&lang=en  count) 18:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Quick fail 

message: I started to edit a bit of the comma and period placement throughout the article for consistency, but I might be mistaken on format.  I think British English allows punctuation outside of quotes for words and phrase fragments, but American English encloses commas and periods within the quotation marks, so I haven't edited those purely on the grounds of regional differences.  However, I *think* that in a sentence like:
"With this expedient solution," he said, "in one fell swoop many interventions will be prevented."
The comma goes after "solution" within the quotes, regardless of where we are from.  If I'm wrong, sorry.  I read war stuff and watch the Military Channel when I am bored. Ytcracker (talk) 11:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punctuation 

message: On http://www.ghwk.de/deut/proto.htm are all pages of Wannsee Protokoll photographed. Those pages are in German national arhive and the only  protokoll copy (No. 16.) which can be reached untill today. I hope it is enough as a source, even if in german. --Seha (talk) 01:44, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Should their be a separate entry on this document? --41.14.4.95 (talk) 12:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  References added 

message: I think that this phrase is not factually correct: "To fulfill its obligations under its Tripartite Pact with Italy and Japan, the Reich government immediately began preparing to issue a declaration of war on the US on 11 December."
Germany (and Italy) had no such obligation, since Article 3 of the Tripartite pact states that "Japan, Germany, and Italy agree to [...] assist one another with all political, economic and military means if one of the Contracting Powers is attacked by a Power at present not involved in the European War or in the Japanese-Chinese conflict."
Japan clearly was not attacked by the US, so there was no need for Germany to declare war on the US. Rizzardi (talk) 11:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tripartite pact 

message: Under the “Background” section of the article, the following quote is made:
“Hitler addressed a meeting of ministers, including Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, at which the administration of the occupied Soviet territories was discussed. He said that Soviet territories west of the Urals were to become a 'German Garden of Eden’, and that 'naturally this vast area must be pacified as quickly as possible; this will happen best by shooting anyone who even looks sideways at us.’ [emphasis added]
“Hitler's chief lieutenants, Göring and the SS chief Heinrich Himmler, took this and other comments by Hitler at this time (most of which were not recorded, but were attested to at postwar trials) as authority to proceed with a more radical 'final solution of the Jewish question' (Die Endlösung der Judenfrage), involving the complete removal of the Jews from the German-occupied territories.’”
It is mentioned in the above quotation that the remark attributed to Hitler was one of several that Göring and Himmler interpreted as authorization for the extermination of Jewish people (and other “subhumans").  Isn’t there any stronger evidence that Hitler personally ordered the Holocaust to quote here rather than this seemingly questionable quotation?  (Questionable in the sense as to what he was referring to and not as to whether he actually said it.)   
To me, this sounds much more like Hitler was ordering that no resistance be tolerated within the territories of the Soviet Union that the Germans controlled; that anyone offering the slightest resistance be summarily executed, than an order, even an oblique one, for the establishment of organized mass murder camps dedicated to extermination of Jewish (and other) people in a factory-like fashion.
I can certainly understand the top Nazis speaking obliquely, employing euphemisms such as “Final Solution” and “Total Solution,” but this reference seems far too cryptic to me to establish that Hitler intended (at least at that point) to order what occurred at Auschwitz and other killing centers.  I would not like to see Hitler’s guilt extenuated even to the extent of claiming that he never intended the genocide, but approved of or tolerated the situation whenever he did become aware of how far Göring, Himmler and Heydrich had gone on their own volitions.
(On a side note, I have never understood why Göring should have been so personally involved in such matters, and why the infamous memo to Heydrich came from him and not Himmler, Heydrich’s immediate superior.  Göring always struck me as a greedy, vainglorious, corrupt high official of a more pragmatic strain and not a malevolent idealist like Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, et. al..  Although no less evil than his top Nazi cohorts, it seemed to make him somewhat less dangerous.  To employ gangster terminology (as the Nazis were always glorified gangsters):  “He’s a man you can do business with.")
There are those, only a step above out-and-out Holocaust deniers, who are apologists for Hitler, claiming he didn’t know what was going on regarding the Holocaust.  I would not like to see them given ammunition, thus my reason for concern here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryBuff14 (talk • contribs) 15:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hitler's Personal Responsibility for the Holocaust 

message: In the first paragraph "Wannsee Protocol" links directly back to the page. I don't know how to fix this but I'm hoping someone monitoring the page does.
--71.234.191.0 (talk) 00:53, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wannsee Protocol 

message: Moved from incorrect place on this page:
"MI6 took care that no survivors would be there to deny the story...causing death of innocent civilians in Czech Republic, who Churchill considered "racially inferior", according to his drunken bathtub talk." This is just one of many biased, inaccurate statements in the article. The article also contradicts numerous other Wikipedia articles as well as Wikimedia commons and wikisource articles. Quite frankly this article is a disgrace to Wikipedia. Dan     —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.254.75 (talk) 05:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This was recently added by some disruptor,  I'm reversing it.  Please indicate other problems too. Zerotalk 06:19, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  unacceptable text 

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thread_title:  File:Eichmann, Adolf.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion 

message: Let me first qualify this by stating that I in no way doubt the hollocaust and do not intend to suggest that the final solution was anything other than attempted genocide.  However, shouldn't rather glaring instances of taking sides be avoided?  What I mean is the editor making statements like "no one at the conference can have misunderstood Heydrich's meaning."  No one should presume to know what any person at that conference did or did not understand. Such statements are just silly, no matter how much we might like to avoid hollocaust deniers.  I would say that per Wikipedia guidlines the article should just state the facts, state that the word murder or killing is never used and present the evidence arguments for interpreting the available record of the conference.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund (talk • contribs) 06:11, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't find that quotation in the article. Are you sure that's what it says? Jayjg (talk) 22:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Isn't there a place to mention in the table, what happened to the Conference participants after the war was over?
Many of them were sent to jail for a few years, and later worked as clerks in West Germany.
Hardly any of them, like most of the German war criminals, was seriously punished by post-war Germany's juridical system.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.56.94 (talk) 06:27, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it an excellent idea to add a section on post conference activities of the participants.  I don't think, however, it is entirely accurate to say "hardly any of them was seriously punished"   Some did escape formal punishment: Heydrich, for example was killed by Czech partisans only a few months after the Conference; Friesler died in a bombing raid in '45; Lange is believed to have died fighting the Soviets in '45.   As for punishment: Buhler was indicted at Nuremburg and later transferred to Poland for further trial, after which he was executed;  Shongarth was executed by the Brits;   Eichmann escaped, lived in Argentina until capture, trial and execution by the Israelis in '62.  A few of the others died, either from natural causes, or apparent suicide, before being caught.  Some served some time but the courts were unable to accurately determine guilt.  Only Heinrich Muller was completely unaccounted for: he disappeared, and it is believed that he died in the bunker shortly after Hitler killed himself but no body was ever found. TreebeardTheEnt (talk) 13:59, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

text: I don't think it's a good idea to add material on the fate of the attendees, as it's off-topic for this article and is readily available in their individual articles. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:17, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Completely disagree.  If the postwar Nuremberg trials occurred and are referenced here (which they are prominentlly) it is accurate and wholly on-topic to note the relationship of the conference attendees to the aftermath.   Indeed,  If the house itself is now a holocaust museum... that is to say if there is a section on the aftermath with respect to the setting of the conference (...and there is...) why are relationships of the attendees to the trials not mentioned.  Indeed, I think this a rather glaring omission and not at all 'off-topic'.   TreebeardTheEnt (talk) 15:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

text:  Also missing, in light of the section entitled "Interpretation" in which the analyses points to power consolidation by Heydrich rather than new policy as to the meetings purpose, is any discussion whatsoever about Heydrichs death , less than six months later and the effect, if any, this had upon the plans.    Given that it is clearly stated that Heydrich called the meeting to "impose his own authority on the various ministries and agencies involved in Jewish policy matters, and to avoid any repetition of the disputes that had arisen earlier in the annihilation campaign."  One is left to wonder if, in fact, these disputes arose again...   I think failure to note the aftermath is not good history, the conference didn't occur in a vacuum and it did have consequences... well, what were they?  TreebeardTheEnt (talk) 15:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The only trial that is mentioned in the article is Eichmann's trial, and only to discuss his testimony about the Wannsee Conference. Heydrich's death is off-topic, and does not belong in this article unless there's reliable sources that make a link between the two events. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  What are you talking about? Did you even read the article?  The third graf of the intro specifically mentions the Tribunal at Nuremberg.  It's mentioned again later.  Also,  Heydrichs death is absolutely on topic, unless you want to treat the Wansee Conference as an isolated event, in a vacuum, untouched by, and untouching, other events.   Why have a page on the conference at all if not to put it in the context of what the Nazis were and what they did?  It absolutely makes NO SENSE to insert all that information about Heydrich consolidating power and the resulting plan put into place without noting that VERY SHORTLY afterward Heydrich was killed...  If Heydrichs death is off-topic then the entire "interpretation" section is likewise off topic, else you have to argue that the Wannsee Conference had no implications on further actions of the Nazis.  Why, then, have the page at all?   If nothing about the aftermath is, as you allege, on-topic than the section about the building now being a holocaust museum is likewise off topic. TreebeardTheEnt (talk) 22:28, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath 

message: :Jews of German-occupied Europe would be deported to Poland and murdered
:Poland belonged to German-occupied Europe but the phrase excludes it.
:Some German Jews were transported to places outside Poland, see Riga Ghetto.Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a suggested wording? how about "Jews of German-occupied Europe would be deported and murdered" ? — Diannaa (talk) 15:44, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: *Deported, but where? The word deportation implies expulsion from one territory to another. Meanwhile, the point of destination still needs to be defined in an unambiguous way. Poeticbent talk 17:07, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: They were deported to multiple locations or killed on the spot. How much of this needs to be included in the lead? because that's where the sentence under discussion is located. — Diannaa (talk) 17:38, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The first and the last paragraphs in the lede seems stubby and should be merged. Not everybody needs to be mentioned upfront, like Robert Kempner for example. Poeticbent talk 19:06, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds okay to me. — Diannaa (talk) 19:22, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the phrase precise? 

message: The fictional British film Conspiracy (2001 film) , build on a real protocol this meeting (belonging to a Martin Luther), as well as William L Shirer and others I just can't recall at the moment, sets the date to early December 1941. (Perhaps "Höss diaries" ?) From where comes this "new" date ? Just an imprinted stamp on the protocol or something else ? (I'm aware of the fact that history once in a while must be re-written, and am not really questioning this date, but simply curious of how and why the date is several months later) Boeing720 (talk) 17:35, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The meeting was originally scheduled for early December but the attack on Pearl Harbour and the entry of the US into the war meant the meeting was postponed. This is covered in the section "Planning the conference" . Shirer page 965 says January 20. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 18:34, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course you're right about Shirer! Stupid me. In my Swedish edition, would it be - Part IV, chapter 27 - "Nyordningen" - The New Order, headline ""Den slutgiltiga lösningen"" , "The final solution" (with " -signs), page 75. If I translate back to English, the sentence would be something like this "For this purpose, did Heydrich call representatives for the  different departments and parts of/within SS-SD to a summit at 20.January.1942" (something inline with that) And "Wannsee" then follows in the next sentence. I must humbly thank you for this correction of my memory. I'm most certainly wrong about the British film as well. But the question of Kurfürstenstrasse 116 remains interesting. (strange enough not "Kurfürstenstraβe"; was this German typewriter incomplete, I wonder...) Boeing720 (talk) 13:23, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date ? 

message: Especially Roland Freisler (but also the other State secretaries) could be given more exact titles (like of what department). But this Freisler is yet another quite unfamous figure of the Third Reich. Mainly known as judge of the "People's Court". Boeing720 (talk) 13:49, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of attendees, titles 

message: You are uncooperative. Let the reader verifies . The text has been published by Haus der Wannsee-Konferenz, Gedenk- und Bildungsstätte, so some relation exists.
:
:August Meyszner participated in the meeting  the text quotes Martin Moll: Vom österreichischen Gendarmerie-Offizier zum Höheren SS- und Polizeiführer Serbien, 1942–1944. August Meyszner: Stationen einer Karriere. In: Danubiana Carpathica. Jahrbuch für die Geschichte und Kultur in den deutschen Siedlungsgebieten Südosteuropas. Band 5 = Heft 52, 2011
:Page August Meyszner describes the meeting The conference discussed the use of forced labour, the coming Final Solution and Generalplan Ost,. I don't have the book to verify the statement.
Xx236 (talk) 09:36, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't explained how this meeting was related to the Wannsee Conference. If the material was there at the time of GA review, the reviewer would ask for its removal as being off-topic, unless a properly sourced connection can be shown between the two meetings. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  remove; it's not clear if or how this meeting was related to the Wannsee Conference. Also, removed a lower quality citation 

message: Article currently reads in part The minutes of the Wannsee Conference estimated the Jewish population of the Soviet Union to be five million, with another three million in Ukraine. (, my emphasis)
But at the time, Ukraine was one of the republics that made up the Soviet Union. Can anyone clarify exactly what the minutes say? It seems strange for such a big mistake to be made at such a senior meeting. Andrewa (talk) 05:23, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The :File:WannseeList.jpg shows 5 million in the USSR with totals for Ukraine and Bialystock set inset. So these people were included in the 5 million USSR tally. I will change the prose accordingly. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet Union and Ukraine 

message: I re-used the photo from the biographical page for Rudolf Lange for this article but it has been removed here. Check also this page:
https://www.picswe.com/pics/rudolf-lange-wannsee-conference-c0.html. --Gepid (talk) 13:53, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry but non-free images are not allowed in lists. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:58, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Rudolf Lange]]

message: The following item quotes a conference in 1940 that sounds similar to the Wannsee Conference of 1942. Could this be a journalistic error? •	  Confession  ----MountVic127 
See also •	 Hans-Georg Mayer 
(talk) 00:58, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  1940 conference ? 

message: This was recently tagged for discussion as to splitting off the house of Wannsee (museum) to a separate article. I do not believe that’s necessary. History of the house up to the present day can easily be kept and incorporated with this article. They’re both tied together in history. It would be an unnecessary fork. Kierzek (talk) 12:02, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the tag. There's no reason for a split at present. If and when there's enough material for a separate article, we can create one. That might never happen, because as far as I know the site is only notable for this one event.— Diannaa 🇨🇦 (talk) 13:57, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  split 

message: Yehuda Bauer, major Holocaust historian, has rejected the importance of the Wannsee Conference. His statements were printed in the Jewish Telegraphic Agency and in Canadian Jewish News. HonestManBad (talk) 18:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yehuda Bauer's comments should be included