Talk:Memento mori

message: The caption of one of the images of this article
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The outer panels of Rogier van der Weyden's Braque Triptych shows the skull of the patron displayed in the inner panels. The bones rest on a brick, a symbol of his former industry and achievement.[1]
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is in contradiction to the text of page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Braque_Triptych which says of the same item
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Few analyses venture to theorize the symbolism of the fragment of stone. As the skull may represent Adam, it has been suggested that the stone represents a piece of Golgotha.[1] Whatever was intended by van der Weyden or his patrons, it may not have been symbolically relevant to the Braque family, as they were well-established as advisers and financiers to the House of Valois.[1]
"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.188.121 (talk) 13:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction with The_Braque_Triptych 

message: Stop reverting the translations. The translations are incorrect. They are interpretations, not translations, and it is not the place of wikipedia to interpret. It translates directly as "Remember you shall die." 76.247.185.191 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 21:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither is even a verb. Memento is a noun and mori is a noun with case suffix "of". It means "the remembrance of death". "Remember death is inevitable", "Remember you will die", and such are fair English translations but they are not literal. Do not attempt to say what it translates directly before you speak the language. John Thornton Theatre (talk) 01:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't they both verbs? The infinitive form of morior is mori and the imperative form of memini is memento. Thus, literally: "remember dying!" or something like that, or in proper English: "remember you will die!". What are those nouns you're talking about? The Latin word for "death" is mors and its genitive form is mortis. I don't think there are nouns like memento or mori in Latin. Yuhani (talk) 02:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That teaches me for trusting other people (namely, a parent who took four years of Latin... thirty years ago). Boy do I have to eat my words; Etymonline gives the etymology of "memento": from L. memento "remember," imperative of meminisse "to remember," a reduplicated form, related to mens "mind." ... Memento mori "reminder of death" (1592) is from L., lit. "remember that you must die." As you can see, it seems my source was mixed up in which was literal. I should really have done my research. Reverting my edit. John Thornton Theatre (talk) 04:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I must add, however, that it may just be popular consensus to phrase it as "must" instead of "will", since that doesn't seem implicit in the phrase (it would appear as an auxiliary verb if it was, I think). John Thornton Theatre (talk) 04:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The first sentence seems to contain two conflicting translations, and upon further inspection, the footnote contradicts it. The etymonline footnote does NOT indicate that "memento mori" is the source of the English word "memento." I will attempt clarity.  I don't mind if you further improve or change, but please don't revert the existing tangled mess.  Tom NM (talk) 11:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translations 

message: Tertullianus is quoted as writing: "Respice post te! Hominem te esse memento!" That's a mistake (see here. Should be: "respice post te! Hominem te memento!"
192.115.133.141 11:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  error in phrase 

message: a disambiguation page is needed for Memento Mori. Spearhead 22:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  disamb 

message: The article contains this sentence: "The genre was little used in classical antiquity; there, the chief thrust of memento mori was the theme of carpe diem, or 'seize the day.'"
The sentence seems to conflate the attitudes of memento mori and carpe diem, whereas they are actually the obverse of one another. The former is a call to humility (in keeping with its supposed origin in the Roman triumph), whereas the latter is a call to enjoy life (as the context of Horace's ode makes clear). 
The article would be clearer if the whole paragraph about carpe diem were replaced with a link to the carpe diem article, saying something like "Compare carpe diem." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.64.31.26 (talk) 23:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm agree with you that the article seems to be confusing the two, but I think it makes sense to explain the difference; I don't think a mere link, with no commentary, would be terribly helpful. —RuakhTALK 03:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have copyedited, mostly that bit, and I hope removed the confusion. I didn't really deal with the issue in the section above - someone with stronger Latin than me should do thatJohnbod 03:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The article still slaughters the meaning of "memento mori." It contains the phrase, for example, "The concept, in the art of classical antiquity, was more frequently embodied in the phrase carpe diem, or 'seize the day.' " Then it goes on to describe phrases similar to <I>carpe diem</i>, but not to <I>memento mori</i>. Truly, they are not similar terms; the one admonishing excessive celebration by reminding the general of his mortality, and the latter encouraging celebration (well, of a sort . . . ) by reminding the lover of the brevity of life. Yes, they both involve mortality, but for completely opposite reasons.  76.190.157.141 (talk) 03:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  distinction between "memento mori" and "carpe diem" 

message: A phrase that I relate to "memento mori" is "sic transit gloria mundi" (as best as I can remember how to spell it).
Is there logical merit to mentioning this phrase also?
Is there historical merit?
1Fishmael 20:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  a related phrase 

message: "In ancient Rome, the phrase is said to have been used . . ." 
Whenever I come across phrases like "is said to be", "was said to", "it is said that . . " etc. in one of my students' essays, a huge red flag goes up in my mind (and I pull a huge red pen out of my pocket). It is a sure signal that the person wishes to maintain that something is a fact, believes he or she might have read it (um, once) (um, somewhere) (um, I think) (um, in a book . . . or something), but has absolutely no evidence or citation to back it up. Therefore, he or she attributes it to an anonymous source (which may or may not exist) by putting it in the passive voice and hoping that the reader won't notice. Hmm, problem solved.
"The phrase was otherwise referred to in the art of classical antiquity . . ."
Again, where is this "phrase" "referred to"? Of course the Latin verb "morior" (to die) appears in Latin literature and of course they write about death and mortality and the transience of human life. That doesn't constitute a reference. The theme is certainly present in pre-Christian Roman literature, as well as in the Book of Ecclesiastes, as well as in Greek literature. However, the phrase itself does not appear until the late Middle Ages.
The phrase "carpe diem" is not "related to" the phrase "memento mori". They mean completely different things, and although both themes are important in mediaeval, Renaissance, and Baroque art and literature, their implications are virtually the opposite of one another. 
There are several passages in this article that make me suspect that the author does not have a strong enough command of Latin to be writing encyclopaedia articles on the internet about Latin phrases.
65.95.229.201 13:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "passive of non-attribution" I calls it. A red flag for me too. Do log in and edit the article directly.--Wetman 15:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancient times 

message: I found the phrase "memento mori" quoted several times in the opening sequence of the Playstation 2 video game Shin Megami Tensei : Persona 3
Perhaps this should be added under modern usage?
Zer0phusi0n 21:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. That, and many others like it, are just trivial references which do not belong in Wikipedia. --Eyrian 21:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uses in modern media and art? 

message: How do you pronounce 'memento mori'?
Thanks,
DK  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.98.58.254 (talk) 14:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Essentially as it looks.  It's been a while since I worked with the IPA, so here's my phonetic attempt: Mo-men-toe more-ee  —Preceding unsigned comment added by VincentValentine29 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize, shortly after I wrote the above message I realized how I not only forgot to sign, but I messed up my phonetic spelling as well.  The first syllable should either be "muh" or "may," depending on stress.  Vincent Valentine 00:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  /mɛˈmɛnˌto ˈmɔri/ in IPA. A "standard" English transcription might be "meh-MEN-toe MOHR-ee". John Thornton Theatre (talk) 01:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

text: It's mementō morī so the Classical Latin pronunciation would be . Yuhani (talk) 03:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Just a personal appeal to Wikipedians to please desist from posting useless and uninteresting trivia. The Modern Usage section of this entry is a great example of how the Wikipedia ideal is being tarnished beyond redemption through the inclusion of such irrelevent nonsense. It weakens Wikipedia enormously.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.16.85.59 (talk) 21:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Can we consider excising many of the bullets listed under the "Modern Uses" section? The list contains so many insignificant references. Also, I believe the section title is misleading; it may lead readers to believe that the definition of "memento mori" varies with contemporary nuance (i.e., reading "modern uses" as "modern usage." Spread (talk) 16:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm removing this whole section, I don't come to an article to see a list of 20 random games and animes that the phrase was mentioned once in. Come on, that doesn't belong here. Deimorz (talk) 19:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with you 100%.--Wetman (talk) 04:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Once removed it will inevitably reappear in crappier forms, you have to leave people somewhere to put this stuff at or they think they're the first one to notice.  I just pushed all the most trivial album/song/TV show title references over to the disambiguation page and removed them from the main article, hopefully people will follow that example and link to all their crappy bands there instead of on this article.  --GregorySmith (talk) 18:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia / Modern Usage 

message: The image :Image:Olivier Skull.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Olivier Skull.JPG

message: "Memento mori" may <I>not</I> be translated as "Remember that you are mortal," "Remember you will die," "Remember that you must die," or "Remember your death." It straight up means "Remember you will die." It is a future imperative and a present infinitive in indirect statement, I don't see any other way to interpret this. "Remember that you are mortal" is simply a rephrasing, not a translation, and "Remember that you must die" and "Remember your death" are grammatically incorrect, besides not making a whole lot of sense. Why not just list the single literal translation, which also happens to be by far the neatest and shortest?  76.190.157.141 (talk) 03:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See translation section above where I have clarified this issue. By the by, "shall" has absolutely nothing to do with the imperative; it is merely archaic (in North America), and "will" is equally correct there. John Thornton Theatre (talk) 01:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translations 

message: changed the "modern literature" heading to "modern instances" and included Jason Rohrer's game Passage, as it is based on memento mori concept.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.5.224.118 (talk) 14:22, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Made a few change 

message: I've removed the Modern Instances section on account of it being unrelated to the article.  It's plainly stated in the lede that this article is about an artistic genre.  The examples in Modern Instances, though they include the phrase "memento mori", are not related to the genre and hence belong on the disambig page.  The film Memento, and the short story on which it's based, does not exist to remind one about the inevitability of death, nor are the video games works of art with this purpose.  There is a perfectly good disambiguation page for these primarily unrelated uses of the term Memento mori. --JayHenry (talk) 21:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern instances 

message: The article says "Standing behind the victorious general was his slave, who was tasked to remind the general that, though his highness was at his peak today, tomorrow he could fall or be more likely brought down.".I do not think this is a correct interpretation. During a triumph, a Roman general was dressed with the attributes of Capitoline Jupiter. The slave was there to remind him of his mortality in order to avoid the guilt of believing that one was really the god, and the punishment metted out by the god. The modern meaning could be "Even being as you are, greater than any man, you are not a god"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.117.157.128 (talk) 21:56, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning in a triumph 

message: on this strong focus on death in much of Western culture? Be illuminating. 74.60.161.158 (talk) 17:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Psychiatric/psychological critiques

message: Would it be appropriate to note the The Haunted Mansion-themed merchandise store at the Walt Disney World Resort as a use of the phrase in popular culture? See the Disney blog. Trilotat (talk) 02:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Haunted Mansion-themed merchandise shop 

message: Aren't broken lute (musical instrument) strings in paintings also a memento mori? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 16:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Broken string(s)?

message: I am new to this, so please excuse me for being a newbie. Rather than making a feeble attempt at editing the article I wanted to know if maybe a pop culture reference section could be added. Memento Mori is also used in the popular video game Dead by Daylight and I happened upon this page when looking up something about that game. I did not realize that this concept appeared in so many different contexts. A brief explanation of the Dead by Daylight Moment Moris can be found on the game's official wiki.  https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Memento_Moris 
108.50.213.81 (talk) 21:05, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop Culture References?