Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Archive/7

message: I recently started stubs for all the chocobo games that weren't wiki'ed yet. First of all, I split Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon into two seperate articles and I created stubs for Chocobo Collection and Hataraku Chocobo. I also created a stub for Dice de Chocobo and Chocobo Land. My question regarding the latter two titles is, are they the same game? Dice was released as part of the Collection on the PlayStation and is to be re-released on the WonderSwan Color, while Land was released on the Game Boy Advance. Whenever I do an image search for the boxart on either of them, virtually the same images come up. I was also wondering it would be appropriate to have a seperate category since there are about eight games total (i.e. :Category:Chocobo games) and if so, should it be a subcategory in :Category:Square games and :Category:Final Fantasy spin-offs? ~ Hibana 01:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I can't be much help, I never played any of these games yet. I think that if they are Final Fantasy games, let there not be a subcategory, but if they are a series of their own, then they can have a subcategory. Also, I don't know about Dice and Land, but if the same box comes up, maybe they're two separate games put together in one game like Final Fantasy IV and Chrono Trigger in Final Fantasy Chronicles.--DarkEvil 03:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: That sounds about right. I've gone ahead and done the recategorization into :Category:Chocobo games, and placed it as a subcat of the two you mentioned. This might create a problem should any future additions emerge (since they'd belong under :Category:Square Enix games and not :Category:Square games), but that's a bridge we can cross when we come to it, I suppose. – Seancdaug 05:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good and as far as I know, I've never heard of any sequels planned for any Chocobo titles in the near future, I don't think they were very popular.--DarkEvil 06:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chocobo articles 

message: Hey guys, I just wanted to announce that I put a new section at things to do that I called: "Articles that should be merged"
It's empty for now but I'm certain that you can fill it, it will be more easy to point out which articles should be merged or are currently tagged.--DarkEvil 03:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Things to do 

message: So, I've missed some info during my absence. I need to know, what about character articles, do we need to all put them in a list of, or are there some exceptions? Because there still exists FFVII characters  and we do nothing about them while were trying to cut FFV and others like that.--DarkEvil 15:39, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that we need to treat each game equally.  If one game section has a list of main characters, the other sections should.  If we have 50 character articles for FFVII and 2 for FFV, then it may technically fall under POV. That's just my opinion. Deckiller 01:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It actually has to do with policies and guidelines. ~ Hibana 01:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Not totally back from formatting my PC, just leaving this answer. I agree with it, I myself am on the favor of merging each character in a list of characters, but if we start thinking keeping those who got out of their particular game or series like Cloud and Sephiroth, there's also Aerith who got in Kingdom Hearts and even Yuffie. I'm not totally sure we should keep characters as Yuffie as an individual article.--DarkEvil 17:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But where do we draw the line? Yuffie has appeared in five games and a film, as have other FFVII characters. Tifa has appeared in almost every bit of media that Cloud has; does that mean we should keep her article as well? ~ Hibana 21:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a solid code to follow would be to have lists for all other characters except for the playable characters and two or three main antagonists. Deckiller 21:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Xenosaga pages (although still fancrufty, POV, and poor...I'm trying to get some editors together to boost up the quality) have a format for characters.  A list of antagonists, protagonists, side characters, and an article for each playable characters.  Then again, Xenosaga has an extremely detailed story and features several games, so the style is different. Deckiller 22:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text: If we follow the policy, for works of fiction, it is said that major characters' info should be in the game article. If there is too much info, then an individual article is create. Major or minor only refers to how much info is available on that char. Minor characters should be in a list of included in the game article or on a list of their own if it becomes too big. One rule to counter them all, it seems that something as minor as a cameo in a work not directly related to the original work in which the character appears is enough to make an individual article about this character. As always, I am in favor of going with the rules, and the rules are not particularly hard to understand I think. But for the best of it, maybe we should start a separate discussion here to discuss what are we to do with current char articles: which have enough info, which should be merged, which deserve to be on their own.--DarkEvil 22:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Character articles 

message: I hate to start another topic with everyone discussing the fate of the character articles, but I was browsing though :Category:Final Fantasy media and noticed a healthy number of duplicate images. In my opinion, the larger non-.png (or .gif) files that are not being used should be deleted. Whaddaya think? ~ Hibana 03:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, it's nothing, the image problem could get as important as the fate of the character articles. I was myself cleaning up images in that category before starting this discussion. Yes, they should be deleted. Png are the best choice for screenshots and if they are orphaned, you can put an orphaned template. This is a case for speedy deletion.--DarkEvil 04:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing to add other than a technical point: are PNGs really the best choice for screenshots? I thought PNGs were only of use for indexed-colour images; for RGB screenshots such as those coming from the later games, won't JPGs offer better quality and compression? >Gamemaker 11:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah you're right, JPG is better for more than 256 colors images. If you try png for FFVII or later, you're likely to get either large files as a result of RGB image, or losing some details if you still work in indexed color mode for an RGB image (removes colors until there's only 256). This is an important point that I did not point out.--DarkEvil 15:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I just finished listing 24 obsolete and unused images for deletion from the category. If anymore are found, please list them as well. ~ Hibana 20:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll list them if I find some more, but I think you made some mistakes in those you listed. First of all, some were already tagged with  which already made them candidates for speedy deletion, so I do not think they needed to be listed, but that is not that much of a problem. The real problem is that you listed some currently used images, which I don't think are obsolete, those are: :Image:Bcaerith.jpg, :Image:Cecil Harvey - Black Knight battle.png, :Image:Dragon (Final Fantasy VII) PC.jpg, :Image:Dullahan FFVI.png.--DarkEvil 22:01, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I'll replace those with the smaller size files that I found. Sorry about the Dullahan image; I didn't realize that it was different until I saw it in the bestiary article. ~ Hibana 22:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's okay, we all do errors of some sort.--DarkEvil 00:21, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Could you unlist the mentioned images? Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:30, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, I think all we can really do is vote "Keep" on those since you're not supposed to removed a deletion template. I can easily find the images again with Google if they do get deleted. ~ Hibana 23:32, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image sorting 

message: I noticed that all of the Final Fantasy articles have something like: "Final Fantasy (Japanese: ファイナルファンタジー Fainaru Fantajī)."　Is it really necessary to write the katakana of "Final Fantasy" in rōmaji?  The katakana version is just "Final Fantasy" is supposed to be pronounced the same way (just with a slight accent due to limitations).  Also, even when the japanese do write "ファイナルファンタジー" in rōmaji, it is written "FINAL FANTASY".  I would appreciate any opinions. --QubitOtaku (talk) 07:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they're not really needed either since Fainaru Fantajī is only the japanese word, but it is the same as Final Fantasy. This is more needed for games like Secret of Mana where the japanese name Seiken Densetsu means totally something else, but for Final Fantasy, this is unneeded.--DarkEvil 15:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, it's just I saw that FFVI had its Japanese title and I thought that it was required for the feature article drive...just trying to make 'em uniform. ~ Hibana 19:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't if it ever came up or not, actually. It's bothered me for a while, but I figured it was more likely that people would complain about it not being there than about it being there. But I'm still not sure. Does anyone know of any non-Final Fantasy related articles that have dealt with this? Otherwise, I can really go either way. – Seancdaug 01:00, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is "Fainaru Fantajī" redundent? 

message: What do we do about this article: Ashe.  One side wants it to remain because it has enough information, the other side wants it moved to the list of character because it doesn't have enough information.  Its been getting reverted back and forth. I'd rather keep it until every one is happy that all the information that could be moved is moved, or if it ends up being too big in the List of Final Fantasy XII characters, then keep it.  WP:FICT is too vague, I think its useless.  How big is big enough.  Seeing it get reverted and redirected over and over is really annoying me.  I'd rather it had not been redirected to begin with...  (frustrated) --QubitOtaku (talk) 00:37, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For right now, let's keep it in List of Final Fantasy XII characters, where it redirects to. See the discussion on character articles above. ~ Hibana 00:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I have serious issues with the current (unreverted) state of the Ashe article. The "character design" section is riddled with speculation and original research, which has absolutely no place on Wikipedia. And the article, in its current state, is certainly not too long to be merged. In its entirety, it consists of 425 words. By comparision, the length of the Kefka entry at List of Final Fantasy VI characters is 421 words. And I strongly contest your casual dismissal of Wikipedia guidelines. Yes, it is vague, but, as I've said before, that is not a compelling reason to ignore it. If we're going to contribute to Wikipedia, we need to be willing to play by the rules of the community, and to abide by community consensus. – Seancdaug 00:47, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd also like to point out that the unreverted Ashe article is still tagged with a stub notice, which further suggests that it lacks the strength to stand on its own at this time. Generally, practice with stubs is to either expand them or merge them, and as has been pointed out previously, there's not much information known about Ashe at this time that would allow us to expand it much beyond its current state (that I'm aware of, at least). – Seancdaug 00:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything starts off as a stub.  It needs work...  As for the speculation, how are others to be able to pick out what is and what isn't... You can't just decide that for yourself.  I'd rather have everyone work on it.  By redirecting it, it makes it harder for people to see what used to be there.  They would have to go and look at the history, if they know how to do that.  I still rather have it an individual article. Screw the WP:FICT, I wont get banned if I keep the article. By the way, what ever happened to the transition period we discussed. --QubitOtaku (talk) 01:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That it is a stub isn't a problem. The problem is that there are no prospects of destubifying it at this time. Again, no one (that I'm aware of) is suggesting that there can never be an Ashe article on Wikipedia. But with the information currently known about the character, there's no immediate prospects of expanding it past stub form. Hence, the merger. And I hardly think I took unilateral action: even you agreed that we should "wait until the game is released" (from Talk:List of Final Fantasy XII characters). And I hardly think it an imposition to expect that anyone so deeply involved in the debate would be unaware of how to access an article's history (or maybe that's just me). And, no, you certainly won't get banned for "keeping the article." But that's a complete straw man: the idea that anyone is being threatened with a ban for anything is laughable and besides the point. It shouldn't be neccessary to threaten anyone into abiding by community consensus. A substantive problem with WP:FICT is one thing, but I still fail to see what is so "vague" about "if the article on the work itself becomes long, then giving major characters an article of their own is good practice." As has already been pointed out, other articles of pretty much identical length have been merged before, so the case that Ashe is somehow different is a little odd.  – Seancdaug 01:18, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: If the character design section is full of speculation/unverifyable info, remove it. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 01:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just done so. May I now make the request that the article be moved (in its current state) to the list article? As far as content goes, it's still clearly a stub, and its shorter than numerous other individual character articles that have been merged into lists previously. I would also like to apologize for any confusion regarding this: I see User:QubitOtaku has just recanted his previous position at Talk:List of Final Fantasy XII characters, which means that the consensus I had thought we had reached   was not so consensual after all. Which goes to show the importance of talking these things through, I suppose. – Seancdaug 01:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I think it should be merged myself. Yes we talked about a transition process for character articles, but this character is from a game not even out yet, it should be difficult to have enough information on it. Other characters from released game do deserve this transition process, but Ashe should not have been created, it's only that we had not reached a decision about character articles when it was created. So, like I said, let's keep that one in a list for now.--DarkEvil 21:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Did somebody recreate the Kefka Palazzo article? ~ Hibana 16:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ashe]] 

message: Merry Christmas to all! Well, we sure have filled out this talk page again in a short amount of time. I just wanted to bring up a few new issues for the project. 1.) Throughout the various Final Fantasy pages, the casing of the series mascots, chocobos, moogles, cactuars, and perhaps even tonberrys (tonberries?), is not consistent from article to article. Some instances are capitalized, some are not, especially in their respective main articles. 2.) The article List of Final Fantasy characters may need to be changed as each individual game has it to have its own list of characters and this one encompasses every game. This may be a bit redundant, as the template on the right of each game's character list has this article for the original Final Fantasy. Although there are very few notable characters in the original title, it may deserve an article as well. If the game does get a character list, should it be titled "List of Final Fantasy (video game) characters" or "List of Final Fantasy I characters"? Finally, if the series character list is kept, should it retain its title or be changed to "List of characters in the Final Fantasy series"? ~ Hibana 19:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Without digging through the archives, I seem to recall that the original idea was to create one character list per game, and that once these lists were all up and running, that the original List of Final Fantasy characters would be dedicated to the first game. I have reservations about calling it Final Fantasy I, because that's not really the title, and I would personally think that the "(video game)" disambiguation would be unnecessary, in light of the template. Plus, we could always add a disambiguation note, similar to what we have at the top of the main Final Fantasy article. But we should probably revisit the issue now and actually make something happen on that front, especially in light of the fact that the LoFFC article is a bit of a mess, at the moment. – Seancdaug 02:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, until we get that straightened out, I'm going to go ahead and correct the mascot casing in all the articles I can find: I recently saw in FFIX that "chocobo" and "moogle" are not capitalized unless their in a name or at the beginning of sentence. ~ Hibana 03:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I think that Final Fantasy I characters should be created over List of Final Fantasy characters just because this list of characters for the whole series wouldn't be needed after that. We will have separate and more detailed lists for each game with a template which links between them.--DarkEvil 21:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just think its a bit redundant to a have a master list of characters when there are lists for each subsequent game. It's not like we would have a master list for the locations (although it may have existed at a primitive point). The series main article even has a link to the first Final Fantasy game's locations; why not have one for the first game's characters? We have an easy-to-see template at the top right of every existing list. I'm even willing to break it and make a sufficient list of FFI characters myself if needed. The Chaos article needs a place to go because it's a bit of an eyesore for how short it is (the guy only appears once in the game). While I'm here, I might as well mention that there's a revert war going on in the Kefka Palazzo article if anyone interested. ~ Hibana 19:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly what I meant for List of Final Fantasy characters, you're exactly thinking like me. About the edit war, I knew this would happen one day. I guess it should be discussed on Kefka Palazzo's talk page or something to let them know why it is supposed to be a redirect. Maybe put a notice at the top of each character article for a while explaining that they will be merged into lists one day.--DarkEvil 21:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names and characters 

message: I talked with ZeWrestler on AIM this afternoon, and filled him in on some of what's been going on with the project in the past couple of months. One of the things we talked about was the image question, and the somewhat sorry state of our templates since we've started to abide by Wikipedia policy about keeping fair use images out of the template namespace. We talked about how best to come up with a legitimately free alternative, and, as we were talking, I cobbled together this. It's not necessarily ideal, but I'd like to think it communicates at least some of the most recognizable elements of the series (it's got a crystal, at least). I've dropped it into the project template for a test drive. My Photoshop skills are... meh... so if anyone wants to try and put together some better, feel free to do so. Any thoughts? – Seancdaug 23:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Free images for templates

message: Not really the most important subject as of right now, but did anyone notice :Image:Chocobo.gif being listed as used on a lot of pages, mainly talk pages. This would be true if it were used in the :Template:FinalFantasyProject as we place it on every FF talk page, but it's been removed from the template a while ago. It's used on the Chocobo article, but I checked on some of the talk pages mentioned in case they were used somewhere in the page, but it's not. I thought this was a funny bug.--DarkEvil 07:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed something like that some time ago. Some of the pages it links to are now redirects, and I guess when the project's image was that chocobo, the articles were redirected before it was removed from the template. Why it's listing the articles that still exist, I don't know. ~ Hibana 07:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Its not a bug, its a feature. The server caches things like what is used where. Those pages simply haven't been updated since the template was changed, hence the old references (live references would be too costly to the server). Open one of those pages and save it without editing. You will see the reference disappear. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 03:27, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then it explains this bizarre problem. I didn't try saving one of those pages, but anyway, the image is getting deleted (not for this but because no longer really used). What you said makes sense to me, anyway, if this thing repeats for another image, it will go off after a while when pages are edited.--DarkEvil 06:34, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A wiki bug 

message: I was planning on adding some more images to the VII Character List, but I can't really decide if it would be a good idea to include screenshots from Advent Children. Should the list just stick to screenshots from the game itself? Eeno 02:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: AC could always be used for representing them, but fairuse restricts use of these images a lot. Those images can be used anywhere, not necessarily the Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children article, as long as they are used for critical commentary and also, not more than 15 images in all should be used in one page like this, so the most important characters should have their images and not more than 5 images coming from an individual person such as a character artwork which was done only by one person, let's say Tetsuya Nomura. The most important is that we not abuse these types of images, so if an already used image of Cloud somewhere in Wikipedia could do the job for List of Final Fantasy VII characters, there's no reason to push the law and upload one more different image of Cloud. Of course, if no uploaded images is good for what would be needed in a particular article, then you can upload a different image. But I think that for most important characters, one of the images used in their individual articles is certain to be good enough for List of Final Fantasy VII characters.--DarkEvil 06:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: AC/VII

message: added final fantasy 10 to list of games with black mages in  --Madcow 19:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, okay. Thanks. ~ Hibana 19:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No title 

message: I have begun searching the articles for any uses of the word "you" in terms of "the player" and/or "one".  Making some progress ^_^ Deckiller 23:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just seen your edits at list of Final Fantasy IX characters, this is great. All instances of 'you' should be replaced by 'the player' in every game related article.--DarkEvil 03:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "You" edits 

message: Should an article like that be created, after all, we have one for Compilation of Final Fantasy VII. Unless there is already an article like that, but I haven't seen one. This is the name Square Enix use for their remakes of Final Fantasy IV through VI on Game Boy Advance.--DarkEvil 06:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In principle, I see no problem with adding it (haven't heard the term myself, though). I'm a little concerned that there isn't really enough information floating out there yet to produce more than a stub, but I haven't been following things very closely, so what do I know? – Seancdaug 23:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

text: From the point of view as a Final Fantasy fan who hasn't heard about this yet, I'd probably turn to Wikipedia for information on it.  So I think it's a good idea.  (omg a post?) — cuaHL 00:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey Cuahl, good to see you sometimes. Seeing the approval from you two should be enough. I'll work on this when I have the time, maybe tonight. I'll be certain to include official references since not a lot of people seem to be aware of this.--DarkEvil 02:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Finest Fantasy for Advance]] 

message: I've just tagged both Celes Chère and Sabin René Figaro with  notes (to Celes Chere and Sabin Rene Figaro, respectively). My reasoning is that these names are never presented as accented in the game, and both articles are tagged with notes explicitly stating the presence or absence of such accents is pure speculation. Does anyone feel strongly about keeping the current names, or should I go ahead and move 'em (by listing them at Wikipedia:Requested moves, if necessary)? – Seancdaug 04:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final Fantasy VI character article renaming