Talk:Parkour/Archive 4

message: Parkour have same potential danger that other sports, David Belle never broken anything. Sebastian Foucan only made his big injury during the Casino Royale chase. Please read this quote to understand why parkour is not very dangerous:
Parkour is not nearly as dangerous as most other sports. Scrapes and bruises are common but major injuries are very rare. However, just like any high impact activity such as basketball or soccer, the occasionally sprained ankle or pulled muscle is inevitable.
Finally, you do not have to do what these guys does —such as jumping in the building— to say that you are practicing parkour. Carlosguitar 12:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Depends on what you define as dangerous. Parkour is the most unhealthy athletic activity a young person could practice. There is not a single more damaging athletic activity (out of the normal ones) in existence. A person that practices parkour should not practice it in order to be healthy, but in spite of the fact that it is damaging. It's not an opinion, it's a fact, and people should be aware of it during their practice of parkour.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.116.199.235 (talk) 
----
*Parkour is the most unhealthy athletic activity a young person could practice.
So you will have to block children to play at playgrounds. Because some of them does parkour naturally.
*There is not a single more damaging athletic activity
Where is proofs that parkour is the most dangerous athletic activity in the world? People have died because of football.  Still this does not proof anything that parkour is really more or less dangerous than other activities.
*but in spite of the fact that it is damaging. It's not an opinion, it's a fact
First, no original research in Wikipedia. Second your argument from personal incredulity is unsustainable because it is your WP:POV without fact.
According to your logic, David Belle and Sebastian Foucan would have to be using wheelchair. Carlosguitar 23:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is parkour dangerous?

message: I think it creates a bad illusion of parkour being owned/run/cetralized, while many communities exist, outside pk.net.
A frequent editor could change the additional external link every month, in order to not create the bad impression that Parkour has some official body behind it, and isn't a free art.
While it's safe to assume that the petty wars between pk.net/uff/apk/pktv or whatever affect the article and links, this shouldn't be a reason for not having at least two links to communities, or even a video resource. Webmasters should stop the penis fencing, and let one of the frequent editors to iterate through the additional link every couple of weeks, even it means pointing to communities some people don't like - It's still better than pointing to only one community.
Pointing to a single resource damages the initial impression of a person's view parkour.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.116.199.235 (talk) 
:Please see /Archive 3 discussion. There is no consensus about this issue, but I support that Parkour.NET and American Parkour should stay. Carlosguitar 04:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Must not be the only link - Put anything out there. 

message: Where is all the discussion that went on here before? Why have they been removed? For example, I had...
:They have been archived. Please see WP:TALK#When_pages_get_too_long. You can start discussion again. Carlosguitar 04:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Main discussion /Archive 3
Shouldn't there be something in the article about how Parkour is not considered legal by the authorities in many urban places, and that it has sometimes caused conflicts, accusations of disorderly conduct or trespassing? I personally love Parkour and think that's unfortunate, but it does seem to be a noteworthy aspect of this still fledgling sport. It would be useful to a reader of the article to know (1) just how serious an offense it's considered to be in most areas, (2) how strong enforcement against it is, (3) what sort of punishments tracers may have faced, (4) and have there been any city ordinances or actions taken anywhere against them? Thanks.--Daniel 02:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Trespass is obviously illegal (in most places at least), is absolutely not a necessary part of parkour, and enforcement and punishment are going to vary massively between countries. I don't think such a section would be practical or particularly relevant. --David Scarlett(Talk) 23:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But given how frequent it is within those who practice parkour in public, it would seem reasonable and expected to mention something about it.--Daniel 02:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Parkour is not illegal.  Traceurs who get in trouble for practicing parkour generally are doing so on private property; therefore they are in trouble for trespassing.  There are very few places where parkour is prohibited;  I have only seen one sign in my whole life and I didn't even see it with my own eyes - it was a picture online.  Parkour is not illegal. ~~  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.217.3.158 (talk) 07:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

text: It's like when skateboarding is banned on sidewalks, in some places it the same with parkour.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.48.10.20 (talk) 15:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What happened to all the contributions on this page?

message: :Main discussion /Archive 3
Shouldn't there be something in the article about how Parkour is not considered legal by the authorities in many urban places, and that it has sometimes caused conflicts, accusations of disorderly conduct or trespassing? I personally love Parkour and think that's unfortunate, but it does seem to be a noteworthy aspect of this still fledgling sport. It would be useful to a reader of the article to know (1) just how serious an offense it's considered to be in most areas, (2) how strong enforcement against it is, (3) what sort of punishments tracers may have faced, (4) and have there been any city ordinances or actions taken anywhere against them? Thanks.--Daniel 02:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Trespass is obviously illegal (in most places at least), is absolutely not a necessary part of parkour, and enforcement and punishment are going to vary massively between countries. I don't think such a section would be practical or particularly relevant. --David Scarlett(Talk) 23:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But given how frequent it is within those who practice parkour in public, it would seem reasonable and expected to mention something about it.--Daniel 02:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Parkour is not illegal.  Traceurs who get in trouble for practicing parkour generally are doing so on private property; therefore they are in trouble for trespassing.  There are very few places where parkour is prohibited;  I have only seen one sign in my whole life and I didn't even see it with my own eyes - it was a picture online.  Parkour is not illegal. ~~  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.217.3.158 (talk) 07:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's like when skateboarding is banned on sidewalks, in some places it the same with parkour.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.48.10.20 (talk) 15:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Legality & Conflicts

message: It's not the same thing as Parkour. In fact it's totally different. Parkour is also NOT an art; it's a discipline.
Having said that, Carlosguitar is an idiot and needs to do some research making any more 'contributions'.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.46.253.243 (talk) 
:First, do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Second, read the source of David Belle official blog. I will quote here: "Le Parkour ou l'art du déplacement » est une méthode d'entraînement et une oeuvre déposée en déclinaison littéraire et audiovisuelle (SACD, SGDL)" This statement is from 17/01/2007. Also l'art du déplacement is the first term to describe parkour before 1998, read the sources! Do you have more reliable source than it?
:Finally, all Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. Parkour is an art or discipline. Sorry, but you will not impose your WP:POV here. If you want to improve this article go ahead. But the way you are trying is disruptive. Carlosguitar 16:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  L'art du deplacement 

message: Would Jackie Chan's movies be considered featuring Parkour? --MoRsE 07:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. They (a) predate the development of parkour too much, and (b) don't demonstrate enough of the techniques that served as a precursor to parkour. --frankenc  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.229.193 (talk) 21:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Maybe Chan should at least be credited in some way, he´s not mentioned anywhere in the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.233.236.250 (talk) 02:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jackie Chan 

message: I was putting in release years for the movie references and when I got to The Great Challenge didn't manage to find anything about it! Who put the link in? Why isn't there a link for it? And Is there even justification in the end for the movie existing? Drizzt Jamo 02:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Great Challenge?

message: The Bourne Supremacy and Ultimatum are debatable as to Parkour, according to the APK forums, the consensus seems to be that it is not. Forum Thread --Huo Ma Ke  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 14:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to remove them. Carlosguitar 09:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Decidedly Subjective 

message: *What is the deal with the External Links section. I have seen multiple links keep being deleted for a unknown reason. Why have an External Links section if you don't want any External Links?  The ones that are on there are not referenced anywhere in the articles, but they get to stay on there. Such as Australian Parkour, search the page for anything that has Australia in it, there isnt. This sport struggles enough to become known and recognized. Don't try to regulate the exposure to this sport by deleting things that are not defacing the sport but trying to make it more known. Best Regards, hope this makes since.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.16 (talk) 17:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The number and type of links to be included are described at Wikipedia:External links unfortunately when an article gets spammed with promotional links (trying to sell things or advertised a forum etc.) it seems easier to remove all links rather than pick out the few that are worth keeping I've tired to leave in the less advert like ones, but Wikipedia is not here to promote any sport just to report it exists and describe it. --Nate1481( t/c) 17:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Please, do not re-add External Links section again, until we get WP:CONSENSUS if EL section should be stay or removed and which websites should be added. All the major parkour communities can be found easy via Google. Wikipedia is not a collection of websites and A lack of external links is NOT a reason to add external links. Please stop spamming this article with americantraceurs.com Carlosguitar 06:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Carlosguitar, It doesn't look like americantraceurs.com was spamming, it seems like you do not want anyone to add anything to the FREE WIKIPEDIA. I don't know about you but when I go to a wikipedia page I like to go to the sites from the external links section, to learn more from different parkour teams. If you are going to go to the extreme of taking the EL section out you need to take all links from the whole article out, and take all EL's out from every Wikipedia article. Just my opinion, your the admin, you got to do what you got to do. This page is one of my favorites due to links through out the article that I can jump to, to find out what is happening across the world in Parkour. You might not take place in parkour but I just hate seeing a dispute like this take place in the parkour community. Thanks for your time  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.253.110.111 (talk) 02:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, Wikipedia is not a directory nor a collection of websites. Americantraceurs.com was inaccurate and unhelpful information. Your website is far away to be equal as Parkour.NET, APK or UFF which makes no motive to be cited here. My reasoning to removed EL section is simple, these communities are easily found using Google, and to do justice with other non-notable communities, it is better to remove any parkour community, since people will try to add your favorite community. EL section was already removed by Can't sleep, clown will eat me (talk · contribs) another administrator and I agree with his reasoning that these external links does not follow WP:EL policy. You are wrong if you think that can add anything you want to add to Wikipedia because it is "free", please refrain your view or you will be blocked due to persistent spamming. Carlosguitar 07:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: I have removed Urban exploration from the external links section for two reasons: 1)It really doesn't have anything to do with parkour, and 2)It had a very bad explanation for why it should be there.  1, because the two activities are not related at all.  You can find forums where practitioners of either activity have stated that they also do the other, but that is not enough reason to include it.  That's like finding a soccer player who says they like baseball and then assuming that soccer and baseball are related; it's faulty logic.  2, because whoever put it on there stated that parkour is often "represented in dangerous locations."  That is a false, and not to mention dumb, statement.  Parkour is generally not practiced in dangerous locations, and even if it were, that is not reason to include urban exploration either.  In short, parkour and UE are two completely different things that have no reason to be linked through this article.  This is an encyclopedic article, not an interest-suggestive list of activities to try.Batman428 (talk) 23:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. Cheers. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 02:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: See also

message: The translation of "être fort pour être utile" as "to be strong, to be useful" is misleading in its English form.  It could be better stated as "to be strong for being useful", "being strong for being useful", or "being strong to be useful".  The basis for this is the duality that exists in French between  the infinitive and habitual forms.  (I may be wrong about this.)  Either way, the original form makes no sense in its present form unless the comma were to be replaced with a semicolon, or perhaps even a dash. 63.215.29.194 (talk) 01:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Mistranslation 

message: I thought people may want to incorporate the following article  into the article. Remember (talk) 15:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington Post article on Parkour and US 

message: If I go on Sport, I can read the following :
Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. Sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing)
I am a traceur myself and I have met traceurs communities in France (3), Canada(2), Sweden(1). None of them practice competition. I have never seen/heard of a Parkour competition on TV, Wikipedia, newspaper, youtube, parkour forums. Since I claim there is nothing, it will be easy to my detractors to show I am wrong giving us a few links.
More importantly, there is no set of rules in Parkour. In the same way, since I claim there is nothing, it will be easy to my detractors to show I wrong putting the 'official rules' here in this discussion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.61.141.109 (talk) 
:That is exactly what I have trying to explain. The current consensus on Wikipedia is sport is a set of rules and engaged in competitively. This definition is sustainable by Unabridged (v 1.1 in 2006), American Heritage Dictionary (Fourth Edition in 2006), WordNet 3.0 (2006) and Britannica encyclopedia. As of February 2008, there is no rules or competitively on parkour. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 16:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think maybe the definition of sport can be misleading in this argument since there are various forms of freestyle athletics including those highlighted in the "X-games" and olympic competitive sports such as gymnastics.  This is not to say that you aren't right because in principle parkour is not classified as competitive it is however an athletic participation and as such should be neutrally considered as, just that, an action of athleticism where participants engage in freestyle and physical interactions with their surrounding envrionment. Izivkovi (talk) 18:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fourth Opinion

message: Would someone please put some Parkour videos or links on this page?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.104.170.255 (talk) 20:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No per external links guideline. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 15:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: From external links guideline  "Linking to YouTube, Google Video, and similar sites: There is no blanket ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page (which would be infrequent). See also Wikipedia:Copyrights for the prohibition on linking to pages that violate copyrights." Still I don’t think adding links to parkour videos would improve the article. --S.dedalus (talk) 23:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I have put some pro vids [www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7J9makpr4k here].  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Easyaspie (talk • contribs) 08:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  YouTube 

message: Is he the founder or not? The photo caption states that he is but his wiki page states that he isnt! 199.191.74.20 (talk) 20:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This was recently changed by a user on 7 March 2008, but is already fixed. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 01:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[David Belle]]

message: "At age 19, his unique physical fitness and willingness allowed him to serve at Paris' regiment of sapeurs-pompiers" How was his physical fitness unique? Should we change this? Doesn't seem objective analysis if there isn't something to back it up.  Muhvi 23:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC+2)
:I changed a bit this sentence, I think it is better now. Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 04:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Raymond Belle]]

message: The "Activism" section relies entirely on two chat room threads for sources. Per WP:SPS these sources are not acceptable. Unless better sources can be found establishing the notability of these events the section should be removed. --S.dedalus (talk) 05:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to remove, I also see no WP:WEIGHT for this section. Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 00:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notability of section

message: "The issue of "proper technique" is one mainly thought up in the UK and US. Many UK and US traceurs attempt to develop a "proper technique" in contrast to their French counterparts who do not focus on the technique but rather the idea behind it." THIS IS MERELY OPINION AND IS BASED ON NO FACT WHAT SO EVER ... it should be removed.—Preceding unsigned comment added by J05HYYY (talk • contribs) 
: Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 19:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not opinion, it's a fact. You'll never see the original traceurs talk about "proper technique". Perhaps if "UK and US" were omitted from the statement, it would be ok for the article. Noxteryn (talk) 14:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyway, we need a source to say it and see how is its reliability. Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 05:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

text:  It IS opinion, and has no sense! "You'll never see the original traceurs talk about proper technique"?? WTF dude! I've personally trained with David Belle and goddamn he did care a lot about technique, but they usually don't talk about it, because they DO care a lot more about physical conditioning that technical training, in France you MUST train at least two years of only physical conditioning before doing any actual jumps (I mean, when you train with people like Majestic Force), did you know? But in america or in england they obviously just give lessons about technical training, because it's not like they have all the time they do in France! (and for the references of my statement of training with Belle, I'm from the peruvian parkour association, the reference of his visit is in our page, i have a photo with him, his autograph, and many other proves, if you don't believe in my word, then i can create an account just for tha sake of my contribution u.u)... --216.244.180.129 (talk) 05:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merely opinion

message: The Theodore Roosevelt citation is interesting, but "point-to-point walks" can be many thing, such as natural method or obstacle coursing. Unless a source is provided linking Roosevelt to parkour, this citation is better represented on Georges Hébert, obstacle course, fitness trail or other article. Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 19:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Point-to-point walks

message: Sébastien Foucan (born May 24, 1974 in Paris, France) is one the founders of free running. He created the sport along with his friends including David Belle. He has been influenced by the art of parkour and is generally considered to be a "second generation" founder of parkour along with David Belle. He is well known as an ambassador for free running to many countries and is generally considered to represent free running. Well known for his views on the philosophy behind free running, he also stresses the need for proper training in the basics of free running, not only for safety, but also to maintain the positive appearance of the activity in the public eye.
He came to prominence in the United Kingdom after the showing of Mike Christie's Jump London documentary on Channel 4 in September 2003, and the subsequent documentary Jump Britain. In addition to leading these programs, Sébastien also appears as Mollaka in the 21st James Bond film, Casino Royale.[1] He spent three months in the Bahamas filming his role in the movie. A stunt double was used for portions of the opening chase scene.[2] Besides this, Sébastien appears in the music video for Madonna's 2005 single, Hung Up.
Foucan helped K-Swiss develop the Ariake, the first free running and parkour shoe in a line of 5 models.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.113.29.46 (talk) 14:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's freerunning not free running. This will be fixed. Tyciol (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Sébastien Foucan]]

message: The reference that supposedly likens parkour to a martial art doesn't really say that. Is it just me, or is that particular line somewhat misleading? If it's the writer's opinion, it should probably be removed. If it is a citation, then another link should be provided.punga   —Preceding comment was added at 04:16, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There are lots of comparison of martial arts with parkour. I have provided a reference for it. Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 15:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Martial Art?

message: This should translate to "the art of movement" This is just a word by word translation, but "déplacement" does not mean the exact same as "displacement."
http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/ says:
"déplacement: movement; displacement; trip, travel"
Also, many of the terms on that page translate déplacement as movement. Dictionary.com says displacement means:
"the state of being displaced or the amount or degree to which something is displaced. "
where displace means:
"1.	to compel (a person or persons) to leave home, country, etc.
2.	to move or put out of the usual or proper place.
3.	to take the place of; replace; supplant: Fiction displaces fact.
4.	to remove from a position, office, or dignity. "
Displacement, the English term is obviously used in a technical sense and does not casually refer to "movement," unlike the French "déplacement," which can refer to displacement or movement, and if we are going to choose between the two movement is definitely the appropriate choice. Obviously the words are related but "déplacement" commonly refers to movement in French, where "displacement" is a more specific English term to describe an objects position. "Art of displacement" does not make sense in English, honestly. Sockigami (talk) 22:31, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not an issue to me, the terms movement and displacement eventually are changed on this article because there was not much discussion over it. Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 00:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "l'art du déplacement" does not translate directly to "the art of displacement" 

message: I strongly suggest that before any of you red flag a section as being written like an advertisement you should realize that quotes ar subject to such. One cannot label an article as objective on account of what it's quotes say (207.210.46.22 (talk) 19:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That’s not the primary reason the philosophy section is so bad. That section is currently tagged because it contains few sources, uses TOO MANY quotes and inappropriate quotes, includes vague terms such as “it is often said” which are known as “weasel words” on Wikipedia, and is generally written in a manner which markets the subject at the expense of impartiality. --S.dedalus (talk) 04:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Weasel Words"