Talk:Chinese in the Russian Revolution and in the Russian Civil War

message: This is an invalid usage of the "speedy" tag and the user refused to recognize this. `'Míkka 04:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hangon

message: Please place quesitions and suggestions about the expansion of the article here. I will address them when trolls go away and I can work normally. `'Míkka 15:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion about the expansion of the article

message: As I have detected, it turns out that the theme of Chinese in Russia has grown explosively in Russian publications in recent years because of growing penetration of Chinese workforce into Siberia and Far East, both legal and illegal. And the history of Revolution pops up again.  Therefore I am leaving this topic to be finished by Russian wikipedians. Here are some solid refs found in first 290 seconds of Russian google search:
*ЭТНИЧЕСКИЙ АСПЕКТ ОБЩЕСТВЕННОГО ДВИЖЕНИЯ В СИБИРИ И НА ДАЛЬНЕМ ВОСТОКЕ НАКАНУНЕ РЕВОЛЮЦИИ 1917 г. (useful about chinese workforce in Russia)
*КРАСНЫЕ И БЕЛЫЕ: Красноармейцы из Поднебесной  "Родина" no 7, 2000
*КИТАЙСКАЯ ИСТОРИОГРАФИЯ ИСТОРИИ КИТАЙЦЕВ В ЦАРСКОЙ РОССИИ Александр Иванович ПЕТРОВ, кандидат исторических наук
And here is an explanation why this topic  has been ridiculously unknown:  information  about Chinese in revolution was censored in Soviet Union.   "Интересно, что цензура всё-таки запретила один документ районных Советов: там было упоминание... о китайских рабочих в 1917 г. в Петрограде! 
"
 Союз китайских рабочих, разместившийся в бывшем китайском посольстве, и Комитет корейских рабочих (или Корейский национальный Совет) – Кук-мин-хэ. Интересно, что Корейский национальный Совет утвердил особый значок для ношения всеми корейцами: «Все корейцы для отличия от других национальностей обязаны носить особый значок». 
 К 1917 г. в Петрограде проживало несколько тысяч китайцев, преимущественно занятых в качестве промышленных рабочих. В декабре 1917 г. в Петрограде был создан Союз китайских рабочих в России, который объединял организации китайских трудящихся, созданные в крупных городах России. Китайский интернационалист Шэн Ченхо в 1918 г. организовал отряд китайских интернационалистов, а в 1917 г. руководил первым китайским отрядом, сражавшимся против Корнилова и Каледина. 
Book    А. Г. Ларин
Китайцы в России вчера и сегодня: исторический очерк Издательство: Муравей, 2003 г.
Мягкая обложка, 224 стр.
Тираж: 1000 экз.
Формат: 60x90/16
После  разрушительных  бурь   революции  и  гражданской войны количество китайцев в  России  (теперь уже  СССР) сильно сократилось. Этому способствовала и возобновившаяся репатриация  китайских  рабочих.   Так,   в  июле   1922 года  в торжественной обстановке, с речами и оркестром из Петрограда был отправлен «первый эшелон с китайскими рабочими на их родину». По переписи 1923 года, число их на Дальнем Востоке   уменьшилось   до   50 183   человек,   а   затем   вновь стало возрастать. Согласно переписи 1926 года, на Дальнем Востоке уже проживало 71,6  тыс.  китайцев  (по языку),  а всего   в   СССР —   101,7 тыс.   (Столь   значительный   рост населения   может   быть   объяснен   как   притоком   мигрантов, так и более тщательным учетом числа жителей.)
Евгений Дмитриевич Поливанов (1891--1938) -- один из "троицы" русских языковедов XX в., оказавших наиболее заметное влияние на формирование современного облика лингвистической науки. ... Заведовал восточным отделом Наркоминдела. Был одним из организаторов "Союза китайских рабочих". 
United States. Congress. Senate. Judiciary Committee. "Bolshevik
propaganda. Hearings before a subcommittee of the committee on the
judiciary. United States Senate. Sixty-fifth congress. Third session and
thereafter pursuant to S. Res. 439 and 469. February 11, 1919 to March 10,
1919", Washington, Government Printing Office, 1919; U.S. Supt. of Docs.
:No. Y 4.J 89/2:B 63/40
:Сенатор Стерлинг: Верно ли, что солдаты идут к
большевикам отчасти из-за платы?
:М-р Фрэнсис: Китайцы были принуждены идти в их армию
голодом. Для тех, кто не идет в армию, продовольствия нет.
:Сенатор Нельсон: Эти китайцы работали на
строительстве мурманской железной дороги?
:М-р Фрэнсис: В 1916 году, когда я приехал, в России было
около 400.000 китайских рабочих. Я не знаю, сколько из них уехало
назад домой, но я знаю, что десятки тысяч из них сейчас в
большевистской армии. Иначе они не могли достать пропитания.
from a forum: names and ates for verification/search:
Уже в 1917 году был сформирован первый китайский батальон под командованием Са Фуяна.
В начале 1918 года даже был создан штаб формирования китайских отрядов в РСФСР.
С весны 1918 года на северном Кавказе действовал батальон плд командованием Пау Тисана.
В 1918 году китайский батальон под командованием Жен Фучена вел бои на Урале и позже воевал в составе Уральской армии под командованием Блюхера.
В январе-августе 1919 года было сформировано 8 интернациональных китайских отрядов (в т.ч. Образцовый китайский полк), которые вошли в состав 3-й, 4-й и %-й армий восточного фронта, 10-й, 11-й и 12-й армий Южного фронта, 6-й и 7-й армий на Севре.
http://www.ihist.uran.ru/index/ru/ency/encyclopaedia,%C6,702.html
Bye, moving onto other jobs, `'Míkka 16:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: russian references, for future use

message: ===Discharge===
A really  unanswered question is where, when and how they were removed from Russia. In comparison, Korean migrants stayed. My educated guess is that they moved into the Chinese own Revolution, which Koreans were nowhere to go. But I didn't  write my guesswork into the artcle. `'Míkka 04:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing issues

message: A really  unanswered question is where, when and how they were removed from Russia. In comparison, Korean migrants stayed. My educated guess is that they moved into the Chinese own Revolution, which Koreans were nowhere to go. But I didn't  write my guesswork into the artcle. `'Míkka 04:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discharge

message: Another issue is Chinese in the White Army. I've seen pasing references but didn't track them. Neither I know whether this issue is of any note. `'Míkka 04:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: White Army

message: Can we at least have translations into English of the authors' names and the titles of the sources?  That would help us know if a Romanized Russian name is the same author as one of the ones in Cyrillic.  This being the English Wikipedia, most of us can't read Russian.
Thanx.
--Richard 05:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian sources

message: Current status seems to be: 
*User:Mikkalai was blocked for 48 hours by User:BrownHairedGirl but the block was lifted by User:Spartaz then reimposed by User:BrownHairedGirl.  I believe the block has expired now.
*User:Ludvikus has been blocked for two months by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise.  Ludvikus made an unblock request but it was declined.
I'm sorry to see Ludvikus blocked because, for all his histrionics and incivility, he had some valid points to make.  However, given the history of his edits and disruption, I doubt any admin will lift the block.  I certainly won't.
Even though I'm not happy with the resolution (Ludvikus being blocked), I recognize that it was probably in order and I feel we should move on hoping that Ludvikus will learn a lesson and come back with more willingness to interact civilly.
In the meantime, we will have to go on without him.
--Richard 07:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Current status

message: There seems to be no consensus to move this article to my proposed title Foreigners in the Red Army during the Russian Civil War.  I am willing to leave this article at the current title. --Richard 07:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Status of proposed move

message: ===Inclusion of information about Soviet censorship===
I would really appreciate it if Mikkalai would provide more information about the Soviet censorship of Chinese involvement in the Russian Civil War and also about the revived Russian interest in that involvement after the breakup of the Soviet Union.
I believe that much of that is encyclopedic as Soviet and post-Soviet historiography and should be included in this article.  Sometimes, the historiography is as interesting as the actual event.  (In this case, maybe even more so.)
I suspect that some of it might have been translated into English and inserted into the article by now if we hadn't spent so much time dealing with the edit warring between Ludvikus and Mikka.
--Richard 07:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Plan for moving forward

message: I would really appreciate it if Mikkalai would provide more information about the Soviet censorship of Chinese involvement in the Russian Civil War and also about the revived Russian interest in that involvement after the breakup of the Soviet Union.
I believe that much of that is encyclopedic as Soviet and post-Soviet historiography and should be included in this article.  Sometimes, the historiography is as interesting as the actual event.  (In this case, maybe even more so.)
I suspect that some of it might have been translated into English and inserted into the article by now if we hadn't spent so much time dealing with the edit warring between Ludvikus and Mikka.
--Richard 07:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Inclusion of information about Soviet censorship

message: You are welcome to discuss with me anything on the topic in this page. `'Míkka 22:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Here is where I talk Chinese topics 

message: I think the subject must be closed. and the talk page archived, because it has become impossible to read. To open the page it took me hours. Mukadderat 01:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Archiving

message: I cannot write anything with solid reference. I only stumbled upon a passiong reference that "the <something about the subject> was censored because the text discussed involvement of Chinese", and from the context it was clear that this explanation was self-evident. It only several days ago dawned upon me that the reason was Khruschev-Mao Tse Tung rift, whe I noticed that all thich Soviet books I found references to which talk  about the details of chinese involvement in Russian Revolution are printed before 1960. I find this instance of censorship in the Soviet Union not surprising, but of course this needs referenced confirmation. `'Míkka 02:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Censorship of the topic in the Soviet Union

message: An editor seems to have moved the page, again (is that the third or fourth time now?), again without first generating consensus. I am having difficulty understanding what the difficulty with these editors is with first discussing such edits. Let's do so in the future. Or is this similar to the difficulty with not disparaging other editors, even when asked up to 6 times? Badagnani 02:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. No big deal. May I remind you that I am not disparaging "other editors". I am calling a troll a troll, and this page and his edits of the article is a solid proof that he is troll, you may wiki-sue me. As you may have noticed I have disagreements with you as well, but I have no reason to treat you as troll. I even answered to you about your request about the Chinese name in your talk page. I did it so  because I was 100% sure that my answer in the article talk page will be met with a new wave of derision about alleged "original research".  Now I may copy it here. `'Míkka 02:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move of page without consensus

message: The revived interest should be a topic of a separate, bigger article, similar to History of Germans in Russia and the Soviet Union, i.e., it must be History of Chinese in Russia and the Soviet Union. This history goes long back, with Russian encroachment into the Far East and Southeast Siberia. `'Míkka 02:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revived interest in Chinese in Russia

message: User:Badagnani posted the following question as a comment in the article.
*Ren Fuchen<--Need Chinese characters for this name-->
I am afraid that to figure out the correct name is unlikely. I strongly suspect that the name in the Chinese source is back-transliterated from the Russian sources. If this the case it may be, eg., Zheng Fu-ren or dozen of other close matches. But I may be mistaken.  `'Míkka 02:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ren Fuchen

message: I posted this question way above all this trolling for the following reason. I have written a series of wikipedia articles about population transfer in the Soviet Union. It turns out that Stalin moved around virtually every non-indigenous nationality: Finns, Norvegians, Poles, Germans, Koreans, Greeks..., perceived as the fifth column (as well as some indigenous ones perceived as traitors). When discussing this article it occurred to me that nowhere I've seen any record of the forced migration of Chinese. So I concluded that theirs were negligible numbers. I finally have noticed a passing reference that in 1921 "the fist trainload of Chinese internationalists departed to their Motherland". Indeed, it is logical to conclude that all these trained and indoctrinated Chinese would have come handy for Sun Yat-sen. But again, I don't have conclusive references on the issue. `'Míkka 03:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Where did all Chinese gone?

message: What does "foreign" mean in the context of the Russian Revolution? Are Jews more or less foreign than Chinese? Are Ukrainians more or less foreign than Chinese depending on whether they happen to be in Ukraine at the time? .......... Harrypotter (talk) 15:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. However in the traditional course of Russian history (in Soviet times) that fact was never mentioned first of all, and second of all it was sort of implied that it was the Russians fighting for their Motherland during the Russian Civil war. Yet still, you do bring up a good point. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 05:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: What does "foreign" mean in the context of the Russian Revolution?

message: I think the following caricature can be added to the article. Accidentally or not the Red Army soldier shown here as Mongoloid-looking person. It is posted at the Belarusian People's Republic article. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 05:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Pole" on the left does resemble a stereotypical Cossack hetman. However, I fail to detect anything "Mongoloid" in the other guy. Degenerate and evil, yes, but it is unlikely that the author of this caricature had the Chinese in mind since (to my knowledge) the Chinese troops were never deployed in Belarus. --Vihelik (talk) 15:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposition

message: I am not sure to what extent Chinese people in Siberia can be described as migrants. As far as I can see the information from the Imperial Russian Census were made in relation to speakers of Chinese.Harrypotter (talk) 17:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess speakers is an uncontroversial way to put it. That resolves the issues with migrants and subjects. --Vihelik (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Migrants?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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