Talk:Palestinians/Archive 1

message: The Palestinians oppose the claim that if they had accepted partition, they wouldn't have lost even more of their territory in the war by quoting Eamon De Valera, the president of Ireland, who declared it was impossible. To one visitor who had solicited his support for partition he replied: "I read the Old Testament many years ago. I am afraid I have forgotten many things I read; but one passage I recall clearly. It is the story of Solomon's judgement of the two women who desired the same baby. I remember how when Solomon ruled that the baby be divided the real mother screamed, "No! No! Give the baby to the other woman!" That is my answer to partition. The rightful owners of a country will never agree to partition".
Israelis would point out that the real mother in the story of Solomon's judgement preferred that her own baby be raised by the false mother just so that the baby she loved should live and thrive (which would be similar to Jewish acceptance of the partition offer, in spite of the fact that resulting Jewish state would have indefensible borders and would not include Judaism's most cherished holy sites). Therefore, De Valera should have said, "The rightful owners of a country are those that prefer to share the land they love with another, rather than subjecting it to devastation and neglect". As the Israelis claim, it was the Arab leadership's full ignoring of the existence of 600,000 Jews aspiring for statehood as much as they do, and the total refusal to share the land in any form eventually lay the ground for their own disaster, which they might have as well averted by accepting a mutually profitable peace.
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The above is great stuff, and it should be in the Wikipedia somewhere. I just don't see how an article defining who the "Palestinians" are, is the right place. How about Zionism or anti-Zionism? --Ed Poor
I removed the following statement as it is a violation of NPOV. RK
:(Keep in mind there is no such thing as a Palestinian.  They always have been living in other countries and never wanted their own country except to arouse a cause from which to bring Jihad agsainst those who they do not like, whomever they may be at the time.  The 'Palestinian' cause is used as an excuse by many tyrannical, despotic government to murder in cold blood innocent civilians, including harmless women and children).
::Agreed. The removed text is apparently a personal opinion. While it bears some similarity to fact, the way it is written is unsuitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia article. The "no such thing as a Palestinian" claim is a viable concept, however, and could go somewhere if properly attributed. I seem to recall a statement by an Arab leader that the concept of Palestinian identity was made up, as a ruse or pretext to justify the replacement of Israel with an Arab-ruled Palestinian state, but the article would have to quote that statement rather than make the claim directly. --Ed Poor
:: Ed is absolutely correct. The original position held by the various Arab governments was, indeed, that there isn't and never was such a thing as a "Palestinian". The modern day concept of a separate national or ethinic Arab Palestinian group is a very new phenomenon, one that only came into existence in the past 40 years. This is not to deny that new ethnicities or nationalities can appear over time; after all Americans are a new people, and they didn't exist as a people before the mid 1700s. They didn't fully become a nationality in legal terms until 1776, and even then they didn't become a real nation in practice (it could be argued) until the end of America's Civil War. So the article should point out the original Arab position. Indeed needs to do so to counter the illegitimate historical revisionism that some people dishonestly use to "prove" that the Palestinians have a centuries or milennia old ethnicity. If I may attempt to defuse a flame war before it begins, note that the argurments for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza should not (ideally) be affected by understanding that the Palestinians are a new people. In fact, although I am a Zionist and thus pro-Israeli, I believe that the only tenable long-term prospect for peace involves the creation of a second Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. (One defacto Arab Palestinian state already exists in the nation of Jordan, which is 78% of the British Mandate of Palestine.) Do I think it is fair that a second Arab Palestinian state be created? No, not at all. But at this point its clear that there is no way around this issue. And frankly I don't think that the Arab peers of Palestinians have any real love for them. Their best interests in the long run are, in all likelihood, served by peacefully negotiating a truce, peace agreement, and then a final status accord with Israel, and then living in peace as neighbors. RK
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I think the noun Palestinian is often used as shorthand for "Palestinian nationalist", i.e., a person advocating the establishment of a new Islamic or Arab state in Palestine.
Another, overlapping meaning of Palestinian is "rightful owner of the occupied Palestinian territories" with "Palestinian territories" being defined as "the lands belonging to the Palestinians" -- which seems to me a circular definition. --Ed Poor
:Hmm, is "person living in Palestine before the creation of the State of Israel, or descendent of such a person", an accurate definition?
It's the definition I prefer above all others! However, that's not the definition of the current article, which seems intended to exclude Palestinian Jews. Citizens of Jordan are nearly all "persons living in Palestine before the creation of the State of Israel", but the way the news media use Palestinian seems to exclude Jordanians. --Ed Poor
:Then that would be: "person living in Palestine before the creation of the State of Israel, or descendent of such a person, exclusive of Jordanians"
::Sounds like narrowing Palestinian to mean "non-Jordanian Palestinian" -- do I understand you correctly?
I would vote for the above definition without "exclusive of Jordanians". In regard to the fact that the jordanian population consists to over 50% of Palestinian refugees the last words would appear misleading. --Elian
Elian, it sounds like you would like to add that definition to the article. If you do, to which advocacy group will you attribute the definition? (It can't just be "three like-minded contributors to Wikipedia" :-) --Ed Poor
I'll try to find out a advocacy group tomorrow - libraries are closed now. Can we attribute views to encyclopedia britannica or brockhaus (its german equivalent)? ;-) I think it would be quite enlightening to have their definitions for such issues as a base for further discussion. --Elian
:"A said B about C" is my usual formulation. In the case of Britannica, unless you think they're biased, they wouldn't be an "advocate" but a "source". Something like "the EB defines Palestinians as ..." --Ed Poor
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The changes I made today attempt to answer these questions: "What is a Palestinian? What does the noun Palestinian mean?"
I thought I would start with the meaning I encounter most in American news media.
Still to be addressed are views which presume that Palestinians are a distinct ethnic group, having discernable important differences from other Arabs. That is way out of my scope of understanding, as I am not an ethnographer or anthropologist.
And some mention must be made of the claim by Golda Meir and echoed by one or two Arab leaders that the concept of a Palestinians as a distinct people was fabricated for political purposes.
I hesitate to move quickly on this delicate question, and I welcome comprehensive discussion before and after any changes. (By the way, I rarely object if someone reverts one of my changes, provided they either (A) copy the text to talk or (B) give a reason for the reversion -- preferably both!) --Ed Poor
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"on the other hand, numerous divisions among them persist, in language, religion and culture"
the division is mainly a religious one. Language (palestinian arabic dialect) and culture are quite similar for all. However, there are, as in every society, divisions concerning educational levels and social status. --Elian
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I rewrote the entire article, bit by bit, and you can see what I by following the "Older versions" link. Please do so, before reverting. But don't worry, I won't fight you. I utterly refuse to engage in an edit war on this article, which is just about the most highly contentious article in Wikipedia; I want to set a good example.
Below, you will find some stuff I couldn't integrate. --Ed Poor 22:23 Dec 4, 2002 (UTC)
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=== Palestinian Arabs ===
One of the most common views states that the Palestinians are the descendants of the Arab inhabitants of the British Mandate of Palestine. This definition, then, would include:
# Those who are citizens of Israel ("Israeli Arabs")
# Those who live in West Bank and Gaza Strip; most are currently under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority
# Those who live in Jordan and identify themselves as "Palestinians"; many are refugees (or descendants of refugees) from the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the 1967 Six-Day War. They were granted Jordanian citizenship.
# Those who live elsewhere, in the Arab world (where many have never received a citizenship) and out of it (where many have).
Overall, there are about 4 million people belonging to groups (1) and (2); estimates indicate there are about 5 more million in groups (3) and (4).
Note that this definition excludes non-Arab residents of the British Mandate. Some writers use the term Palestinians to include all residents of the British mandate, and the term Arab Palestinians when speaking only of Arab residents.
The word Palestinian is a highly loaded term, being used in arguments and slogans implying that some or all of the British Mandate is the rightful property of Arabs rather than Jews (see Arab-Israeli conflict, etc.).
Most writers deem Palestinians to be Arabs. However, some Palestinians are members of Arab ethnic groups that stretch far beyond the borders of historic Palestine; on the other hand, numerous divisions among them persist, in language, religion and culture. However, most Palestinians believe in a common joint identity. In the opinion of many, this is enough to qualify them as a unique nationality, and by the way of romantic nationalism makes them eligible for statehood. Many others disagree with opinion (see proposals for a Palestinian state).
Palestinians are nearly all Muslim, but there are some Christians as well. A very small number of Palestinians are humanists, atheists or agnostics. Over the past few years, many Palestinian Christians have moved to Europe and North America, citing the rise of Islamic parties and accompanying intolerance and discrimination in the major cities of the West Bank (see: Palestine/Christian), including by the Palestinian Authority itself.
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In general – it is not offensive to me. I would not dispute the neutrality of this article. I have some particular comments. 
<B>There have indeed been Jewish residents of Palestine, and some people were even issued passports listing their nationality as Palestinian. However, very few people today accept the concept of a Jewish Palestinian and would prefer to use the term Palestinian to exclude Palestinian Jews.</B>
The PLO has a very small number jewish members. I use to know one. Some of these Jewish PLO people are quite high ranking. There are Jews, though not many who choose to live in the Occupied territories with their Palistinian neighbours, and not in settlements (excluding those who are members of the PLO. I would think that these Jews are Palistinians. They are clearly claiming that they are, and if they are in the PLO, the PLO is claiming that they are too. Are these Jews traitors? (If so – that would be really interesting.)
:A great many Jews consider this tiny extremist group to indeed be "traitors". Many Jews, even some Orthodox Jews, consider this fanatical group to be anti-Semitic. See the entry on this tiny ultra-Orthodox sect, the Neturei_Karta for more details. I have heard both Orthodo and Conservative Jews refer to them as pro-terrorist and Jewish anti-Semitites. Based on their hatespeech towards other Jews that they have published, I see little difference between them and the PLO itself. RK
:: to see them as trators is not what I was talking about, but to define them as trators, through law. The question is whether all Jews are subject to the laws of israel, or whether they may choose to live lives apart from israel, or even in opposition to israel. Is Israel citizenship a privlidge or a duty? (Clearly some people believe that all Jews must be loyal to Jews, and that supporting the PLO does not count.)  Not all Jews who have joined the PLO are members of the ultra-Orthodox sects. Some are decidedly left wing. Ok, I know of one who is. I see a certain amount of difference between the PLO and Jewish groups who oppose Israel and support the PLO based on religious grounds. The PLO has far fewer choices open it than the ultra-Orthodox sects. I would not say that Israel is any less of a terrorist nation than the PLO, and I would say that Israel is not necessary any less of a racist society than the PLO, anti-semitism or not.  Karl
Israeli Arabs are not generally considered "Palestinians", as they bear Israeli citizenship. Arabs who are citizens of Jordan are also not generally considered to be Palestinians. 
Israeli Arabs are not generally considered "Palestinians", as they bear Israeli citizenship. Arabs who are citizens of Jordan are also not generally considered to be Palestinians. I don’t follow the issue well enough to flatly disagree, but I’m real suspicious. I believe that Israeli Arabs ARE Palestinians in terms of personal identification. Palistinian Israeli citizens receive special (ie torture) attention in the Israli political system. This is along with inadequate funding of education, for exampel  Israel considers them palistinians in a negative sense.  – see amnisty international year in review (I think).
:Many Israeli Arabs do consider themselves to be "Palestinians". Many Israeli Jews now also view them in this way. RK
There is a negative definition – like that Hitler created. A jew is whom I say it is – so that under Nazi law I am a Jew. Under Jewish law I am not. (Great I have a choice between racism and sexism. Ops – that wasn’t called for!) I’m not sure if this type of definition should be included – it may be impossible to make it NPOV. 
:I don't think that NPOV is the problem.  The problem is that there isn't any one tightly defined group of people called "Palestinians", and we confuse and mislead ourselves when we try to pretend otherwise. Palestinian Arabs as a distinct nationalist certainly have never existed before 1948 at the very earliest, and one can argue that they didn't really exist before 1967. They are an emerging people in flux, and it will be a century or more before we can talk about this new group in the same definitive way that we talk about long-established nationalities. RK
And then there are the Druze… 1) they believe themselves to be Druze & Arab and Palestinian and the oppression they suffered for being Druze leading to their assimilation into Israel. The Druze also live in the occupied territories. I don’t know the numbers, but am under the impression that it is more than just a few.  There are also a few Christians who choose to live in the Occupied Territories with the Palistinians.
:Many Palestinian Arabs always have been Christians.
:: yes, but I haven't seen mention of the Druze in the article, and I suspect that they should be in there some where, with some sort of analysis on Palistinian Druze and Israli Druze. I am curious whether the Palistinian oppression of the Druze throws a curve into the identification of "Palestinian".
Re: Jordan: I understand that Jordan has allowed some palistinian refugees to settle and live there, without living in refugee camps. Would these people loose their palistinian identiy? I’m just picking at things – I don’t plan to make any changes at this time. Karl
:The majority of Jordanians are ethnically identical to the Arab people in the West Bank who call themselves Palestinians. The PLO itself held, until recently, that their goal was never to make a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, but rather to make a Palestinian state in all of Jordan and the West bank, Gaza and Israel. RK
:I should have posted the items I was looking at before - sorry. I was originally responding to --Ed Poor.  RK - do you think the article is NPOV? Karl
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RK, you cannot say that Golda Meir's statement is not a mainstream Israeli position. After all, she was prime minister when she made it. Perhaps today, there are far fewer people who would make such a comment, but the attitude lives on and certainly has an impact on the discourse within Israeli society. For instance, a common argument used against Palestinian statehood is that there are so many other Arab states. This is, in effect, a denial of a distinctive Palestinian identity, though it is not saying it in as many words. Danny
:This isn't what I meant. I understand that 30 years ago, when she said that, many Israelis felt this way, and she was probably right. The PLO themselves publicly used to admit that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian", and they repeatedly publicly admitted that they created this pseudo-nationality simply as part of the Pan-Arab effort to destroy Israel. And this fact is discussed, with quotes and references, in the appropriate article. However, none of this is why I made my edit; I edited out that claim because the writer was clearly implying that this was the mainstream Israeli view, and that is totally false. Many things have changed since then. For one, there really now is a nascent Palestinian Arab nationality developing. The writer created a historical anachronism to explain something today, which was misleading. RK
:::I had been under the impression that Meir's claim meant that there were no "Palestinians" per se, only "Palestinian Arabs" and "Palestinian Jews" (and others), i.e. that those Arabs who call themselves "Palestinians" do not have an exclusive claim to that name. True? Spurious? --FOo
I haven't been following the exchange above as closely as I should. But let me just add that I think the definition of the word Palestinian is crucial to any discussion of the rightness or wrongness of establishing a "Palestinian state". --Uncle Ed
This recent addition must be changed: "Advocates of the Israeli side, however, view the definition of a Palestinian as a more complex problem. The rest of the article deals with these problems. Some Israelis (and also Americans) refuse to accept the term Palestinian in general (cmp. Golda Meirs statement: "There are no Palestinians" which was interpreted in various ways), some prefer to speak of "Arab nationalists" which already implies the political goal which is commonly ascribed to the"
:This is factually wrong on many levels. First (see my comments above) most Israelis do not hold this belief today. Secondly, it takes a statement that was made totally out of its context, and makes Gold Meir out to look like a pathological liar. In point of fact, if we are to be fair we must note that most Arab leaders denied the existence of any "Palestinian people" in the 1940s and 1950s, and the PLO themselves publicly admitted that they created this idea solely as part of a Pan-Arab plan against Israel. Thirdly, it is absolutely false to claim that Israelis or Jews refer to Palestinian Arabs as "Arab nationalists". That's totally out of the question; no one uses this as a euphamisim for the Palestinians, no one at all. The phrase "Arab nationalists" has a totally different meaning. Frankly, the entire paragraph looks like a modern day PLO press release, meant to deligitimize everything else in this entry. It makes fun of people who are seriously working on discussing this complex issue, and basically implies "Of course any honest person knows who Palestinians are, its only those stubborn Israelis who can't see the truth". That's just bunk. We had an entire article, and all of the article is basically dismissed as ignorant by this insertion. That is wrong. RK
I agree with you, and I appreciate your patience. Let's wait another hour or two for the new IP guy to finish stating his case, then we can:
*clean it up, bit by bit
*revert it to your last "clean" version
*or I could even protect the page
I've written to the mailing list (see here), asking for advice and/or help. --Uncle Ed
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Rater than try to prevent biased comments, what about something like this:
Historically, the Muslim faith did not encourage countries or national identity in the same way as Christianity in the west. It seems that who is a Palestinian, and how important this is has changed over time.
It is most likely that a solution to the “Palestinian Problem” will require negations between the State of Israel, and the PLO. Both of their views on who is a Palestinian is probably biased. 
=== This is the position of the PLO on who is a Palestinian and the history of the Palestinian People ===
=== This is the position of the State of Israel on who is a Palestinian and the history of the Palestinian People ===
=== Comparing the Palestinian refugee situation to other refugee cases ===
The Vietnamese boat people exodus from Vietnam was happening when I was in university. Shocked by the number of people affected; 1.5 to 2 million, and somewhat pleased with the Orderly Departure Program, I looked at the Palestine issue in order to understand the magniture of the boat exodus and was appalled to see estimates for the Palestinian exodus of from 9 to 15 million displaced people with no international resettlement response.
I continue to see acusations that it was the arab states responsibility to take in all the refugees, yet I cannot conceive of the effect it would have had on their economies for the bordering nations to handle 15 million refugees as the estimate which was given and the size of their own populations. Even 9 million would be crushing to the bordering nations whose populations are: Syria 18 million, Jordon   6 million, Lebanon  4 million, and more remotely 
Saudi Arabi 26 million
This is the extent of my investigation on the issue and I remain appalled. How accurate is the information I have presented here?
:This page is an old discussion page. I've moved your post to Talk:Palestinian_people#Comparing_the_Palestinian_refugee_situation_to_other_refugee_cases. Arniep 01:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Positions of both sides regarding the state of [[Israel]] 

message: The Vietnamese boat people exodus from Vietnam was happening when I was in university. Shocked by the number of people affected; 1.5 to 2 million, and somewhat pleased with the Orderly Departure Program, I looked at the Palestine issue in order to understand the magniture of the boat exodus and was appalled to see estimates for the Palestinian exodus of from 9 to 15 million displaced people with no international resettlement response.
I continue to see acusations that it was the arab states responsibility to take in all the refugees, yet I cannot conceive of the effect it would have had on their economies for the bordering nations to handle 15 million refugees as the estimate which was given and the size of their own populations. Even 9 million would be crushing to the bordering nations whose populations are: Syria 18 million, Jordon   6 million, Lebanon  4 million, and more remotely 
Saudi Arabi 26 million
This is the extent of my investigation on the issue and I remain appalled. How accurate is the information I have presented here?
:This page is an old discussion page. I've moved your post to Talk:Palestinian_people#Comparing_the_Palestinian_refugee_situation_to_other_refugee_cases. Arniep 01:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparing the Palestinian refugee situation to other refugee cases