Talk:Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War

message: La iglesia católica cometió las peores atrocidades en España durante siglos, apoyando a dictadores mientras el pueblo agonizaba y se rebelaba. La iglesia católica cometió ejecuciones de trabajadores y trabajadoras sindicalistas durante la Dictadura de Primo de Rivera, apoyaron a Franco en su golpe de estado contra la República Española elegida por el pueblo y se unieron a los fascistas para derribar la democracia en la Guerra Civil. La iglesia y sus sacerdotes asesinaron y torturaron durante la postguerra y apoyaron hasta el último momento al Régimen de Franco. ¿Y tenéis las narices de decir aquí que fueron mártires y no os sabéis explicar porque los mataron? ¿Sabéis a  que, excepto en 3 ocasiones, todas las veces que los españoles han votado libremente, han elegido un gobierno socialista y anticlerical? ¿Mártires de quien?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.78.198.90 (talk) 01:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Comments previously posted here have been moved to the Talk:Spanish Civil War page, where the discussion is taking place.Mamalujo 20:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge to Spanish Civil War

message: This article was created as Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War, moved to "Martyrs" of the Spanish Civil War, then back.  It was proposed and not opposed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/"Martyrs" of the Spanish Civil War that it should be renamed as Roman Catholic martyrs of the Spanish Civil War, as the title Martyrs of SCW is sometimes also used for Republicans.  I completed this move, which is also consistent with e.g. CFD:Martyred priests. - Fayenatic (talk) 12:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title 

message: Hi there :) 
I see that finally the article has been voted for keeping, and I was wondering wether anyone is interested in working on it. Personally, I'd gladly lend a hand but I really don't know where the original writers of this article want to start from or go to. What I'd expect to see in an article such as this one is 1) An objective background summary, and 2) references to some of these martyrs and a factual, sourced account of their martyrdoms. I particularly liked the tone and style of Martyrs of Daimiel which was, to my liking, practically dispassionate and apolitical, and constrained simply to informing of the massacre of priests at the hands of Republican militias, but then again I'm not sure that tone would fit for this article... Dunno... What do the rest of you reckon? Dr Benway 18:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing and such 

message: Added templates for what I think most claims against the neutrality of this article point out. Mainly: 
- Use of simplified rhetoric ("... vast numbers of Catholics were murdered simply because of their faith")
- Controversial and biased one-liners lacking relevance or analysis that could justify inclusion ("Despite supposedly being a democracy...")
- Weasel paragraphs ("Leftists and parts of the republican bourgeoisie tended to be anticlerical, while Conservatives tended to support the church with more or less intensity")
- Biased sources (the Catholic Herald, where many of the most controversial statements are copypasted from, almost verbatim)
Added tags to the most important issues that need looking into:  
- ""Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War" is the name given by the Catholic Church to the tens of thousands of people who were killed during the Spanish Civil War because of their connection to the church [1][citation needed]." = We need a source of an official church authority stating that usage. We need a reference for those "tens of thousands". As far as the info i've been looking at, it's 10,000 approx. I'll check my sources for an exact number/estimate. 
- "During the Spanish Civil War 1936-1939, especially in the early months, vast numbers of Catholics were murdered simply because of their faith. [2][opinion needs balancing]." = I think this deserves much more detail. Of course it's a given many Catholic clergymen were murdered "because of their faith". But there's many, many socio-historical issues in this as well that ought to be minimally mentioned. There was nothing simple about these murders. 
- "Not including the much larger number of lay people killed for their faith[citation needed], almost 7,000 clergy were killed." = We need some hard numbers from a reliable source. Who were these "lay people killed for their faith"?
- "Despite supposedly being a democracy, not a single western nation gave support to the Republicans[opinion needs balancing]." = As far as most historians are concerned, the Second Spanish Republic was a democracy. There was nothing hypothetical about it. We need to balance that statement by expanding on it, or make it less tendentious. 
- "Only the Soviet Union and Mexico, also engaging in religious persecution at the time, gave support to the Spanish Republicans[opinion needs balancing]." - We have to source these claims. What support are we talking about? Diplomatic support? Economic?   And when? Once the war was underway? When the Republic was proclaimed? 
- "During the 19th and the 20th centuries, the role of religion on the Spanish society was one of the issues polarizing Spanish society" - I think we should specify a bit more. Mainly it wasn't the role of religion, but rather the role of the catholic church and its ties to other institutions and socio-political movements (left wing and syndicalist movements, Carlism, fascism, etc). I think this part should be significantly expanded to provide context. 
- "Leftists and parts of the republican bourgeoisie tended to be anticlerical, while Conservatives tended to support the church with more or less intensity." A bit weasily, no? This is the kind of thing we should be trying to avoid. 
- The whole section on the PNV and the basque clergy is... I'm not sure how to say it... a bit irrelevant in its current state. What's the point of it being there? I'm not being funny or anything, btw, I simply don't see what it's doing there. 
I also added a template for absence of biography notability, mainly because it's not being focused as a biography. 
Anyway, I hope we can do some work and start improving this article, given that it looks like it's going to stay. Cheers! :)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Benway (talk • contribs) 10:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tags Added 

message: Is there any actual reference from the Pope or any of the church officials who have conducted the procedures of these beatifications that refer to them as "Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War"? Added FACT tag, but feel free to source and remove. I'm taking a look and apparently the church officialy calls them "Martyrs of the XXth Century", and not "Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War". Please bang me over the head if I'm wrong and I'll shut up, but I can't find any official sources using this term. Otherwise, I think some editing should be in order. Cheers ;) Dr Benway 14:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Butler's Lives of the Saints, which is cited, uses that term.  I believe Roman Martyrology also uses the term.Mamalujo 18:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi there. Absolutely right, but Butler's Lives of the Saints is not an institutional source from the Catholic Church, as far as I know. I could be wrong though, Mamalujo, and you know more about the subject, I guess, since you're a practicing Catholic. I'm still looking through sources though. I haven't found any reference to these Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War in Roman Martyrology or calendar sources, nor in the speeches of the clerics who carried out the offcial ceremonies. Dr Benway 14:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martyrs of the XXth Century vs Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War 

message: I really don't think it's a good idea to mix the debate in Spain of the Law for Historical Memory with this topic. Dunno, I think it's convoluted enough as it is, and the less we stray away from the topic the better. What do you guys think?  Cheers :)! Dr Benway 09:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Law for Historical Memory 

message: Hi there. Was wondering the reasons for the revert in the opening paragraph: 
""Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War" is the name given by the Catholic Church to the tens of thousands of people who were killed during the Spanish Civil War because of their faith."
Mainly since:
1) We still have no sources from the Catholic church (and I mean official, i.e, from an officer of the church acting in public capacity, not by a catholic journalist giving his opinion in a local parish articlem, which is very valid in that source, but not in an encyclopaedia) calling it in such a way. 
2) The death toll does not ascend to "tens of thousands". The cited sources  you cite for this(the Catholic Herald, which is the church's newspaper of the Diocese of Arlington, and Butler's "Lives of the Saints" which is a hagiography from a press that belongs to the church) and are non-authoritative and speculative. Butler's even states that in the cases of those not accounted for and hypothetically slaughtered for their beliefs, “… it must be impossible to the cases of most of them to say with certainty wether they suffered for their faith or for their political or military alleigance.” Hitorians quote the previously mentioned numbers, and stick to numbers ranging in the 5000-7000 margin. Again, I respect the opinions of your sources, but they're not quite as authoritative as an encyclopaedic article demands.
3) Many of these Martyrs were not killed during the Spanish Civil War, but previously. 
And Mamalujo, I thought the idea of the article was to talk about those beatified by the church in the ceremonies mentioned, and not about hypothetical mass murder of unsourced victims and of straying into the arena of the Red Terror, which is treated in its own article. I really think the previous intro gave a more balanced feel to the article and a more concrete content, and would like to discuss this firther before this simply becomes an edit issue in which I can't be bothered to participate. Cheers!  Dr Benway 15:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, you are plainly wrong about the numbers killed for their faith being only 5000-7000.  The undisputed number of clerics alone is over 6,800 (that number has been recognized currently by scholars as being accurate and documented by meticulous research - see de la Cueva).  But I don't think it is a major point.  I did not actually intend to include the word "tens" when I made the revert.  And I will grant with regard to the lay people who were killed for their faith some sources point out that it is often difficult to detirmine exactly why they were killed.  I think it is sufficient to say "thousands".  With regard to the name, we're kind of treading over old ground.  There was a rename proposal and it failed. It is the most common name used, including by the Church as well as secular news and Catholic news services (CWN, CNS, Zenit).  Lives of the Saints uses the name (at p. 169, cited in the article) and says that this grouping is in accord with the new Roman Martyrology (i.e. an official Church categorization).  I will remove the word "tens" and remove the tag.  Please replace it if you think it is still warranted.  Cheers.Mamalujo 16:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi there. I guess "thousands" will be an appropriate compromise, "qué remedio". Regarding the title, I would however really appreciate if we could find a concrete reference in the cited Roman Martyryology to it, because I certainly can't find anything about "Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War" in any "new Martyryology" source. I have the uncomfortable feeling we're drifting back to square one, and I don't really see where this article is going...Dr Benway 14:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  As to article title, case rested as far as I'm concerned. See  , straight from the horse's mouth. The Vatican calls the homily in the ceremony the "MASS FOR THE BEATIFICATION OF 498 MARTYRS WHO DIED DURING THE RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION OF THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR". Dr Benway 15:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Edit 

message: I've taken out the unbalanced tag.  There doesn't appear to be any specific discussion on this tag and so by rights it should be removed.  JASpencer (talk) 20:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unbalanced tag 

message: The recent edits of this article and it's expansion are starting to look really good, focussed, and neutral. Congrats :)
The only bone I have to pick here is the paragraph in the 498 martyrs: 
"In this group of people, the Vatican has not included all Spanish martyrs, nor any of the 16 priests who were executed by the nationalist side in the first years of the war. This decision has caused numerous criticisms from surviving family members and several political organisations in Spain.[8]"
I think the current wording is trying to deviate attention from the fact that these 16 executed priests, the only ones shot by the Nacionales, are the only clergy out of all of those executed in the civil war who have not been beatified. 
Dr Benway (talk) 10:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the 16 are not "are the only clergy out of all of those executed in the civil war who have not been beatified". As you know, almost 7,000 religious and clergy were killed.  Just under a thousand have been beatified or canonized.  That leaves another six thousand who have not been beatified.  Process is underway for beatification of another two thousand, which would still exclude 4,000 of the killed clergy. All that notwithstanding, how would you propose to remedy that sentance from the problems you see? Mamalujo (talk) 20:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I guess you're right there and I'm being a bit too paranoid over the issue... :P Cheers! Dr Benway (talk) 08:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent Edits 

message: The picture of the cross-eyed fellow with the bible is quite large, and it's not even identified by name. Could someone post a smaller picture, and put the name of the guy?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.222 (talk) 19:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: how can this guy be considered a martyr of the Spanish Civil War, given that he died in 1934, and the war started in 1936? Or maybe his first miracle was to travel in time?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.214 (talk) 23:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an explanation on his article page, now. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saint Innocencio of Mary Immaculate 

message: The page has a section on Individuals (I've moved the Martyrs of Diamiel down to it, as they seemed out of place where they were) but I'm wondering what our criteria for inclusion should be. There were hundreds of causes, and thousands of individuals; we can't (and shouldn't) list them all here. in any event they are also listed elsewhere on the separate group pages.  It makes sense to include some particularly notable cases here (first to be canonized, first to be beatified, youngest, oldest, first from a particular country maybe), but half of the ones mentioned so far are being given undue weight by inclusion. Thoughts? Moonraker12 (talk) 14:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Individual cases 

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message: I wonder if the paragraph on this man is necessary or appropriate for this article.  --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 13:38, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
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