Talk:Franjo Tuđman/Archive 1

message: Delirium, it's not really an English spelling; it's just a traditional way of spelling the d with a stroke character when high-bit characters are unavailable. In English one could also spell it 'Tujman', it would be pronounced the same... So, surely that dj in the title of the page is enough? --Shallot 17:29, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling of the name

message: The present article is in dire need of some paragraph breaks. Probably also a less mellow account of accusations against him. --Shallot 17:38, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've fixed up some of it, but it's still written in an overly enthusiastic manner. --Shallot 10:39, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Shallot's comments

message: This article uncritically accepts Tudjman's claims regarding the exaggeration of WWII genocide victims without any corroborating evidence.  Someone is using this encyclopedia to further a rabid revisionist campaign that should have been put to rest ages ago.
: Are you talking about this copy&paste above, or about the present article? --Joy [shallot] 16:27, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Read Ustase#Victims for various quotes of the numbers. --Joy [shallot] 15:17, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes. On the other hand, it's not impossible that there are not only omissions but also errors on the same list — missing people counted as Jasenovac victims but actually killed elsewhere, or not killed at all (emigrated and lost all track), or died of different causes (other warring parties, disease, cold, ...), etc — so it's non-deterministic either way. You'll notice that I've also amended the article to be less determined in assessing Tuđman's estimate as correct, since there's little or no point in saying that, either. Now it merely says that he likely didn't just invent them out of the blue. --Joy [shallot] 19:26, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: WWII victim numbers

message: 195.93.21.100 wrote:
: In this book he wrote that "the establishment of Hitler's new European Order can be justified by the need do be rid of the Jews" & that "Genocide is a natural phenomenon in harmony with the sociological & mythological divine nature. Genocide is not only permitted, it is reccomended, even commanded by the word of the Almighty, whenever it is useful for the survival or the restoration of the chosen nation, or for the preservation & spreading of it's one & only correct faith" (ie Catholicism).
Did he really? --Joy [shallot] 00:18, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Tudjman also claimed that only 900,000 Jews died in the Holocaust rather than the 6 million claimed by anti-Nazi sources - a matter equally "by & large confirmed" by Nazi sources
Source? --Joy [shallot] 00:19, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bespu&#263;a povijesne zbiljnosti 

message: 195.93.21.100 wrote:
This right was legally guaranteed in the constitution of Croatia which was officially described as a republic of "Croats & Serbs" but on declaring independence the HDZ decided that constitutional rights no longer applied.
Some quote? --Joy [shallot] 00:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  constitutional language 

message: Not bad (a lot better than the Croatian version of the article), but Tudjman's war propaganda, and his, well, "evil" side are almost entirely left out.  A reader must understand that when he reads the article, he is facing a forger of a nation, a creator of a state, a brilliant politician (which is, actually, a bad virtue) and a strategist; and a very, very twisted criminal mind! HolyRomanEmperor 14:03, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not bad, not bad 

message: Why not using president infobox like most of the presidents on wikipedia? --Dijxtra 10:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: As I see, some contributors (unregistered-but, this isn't crucial) try to alter the page on Tuđman. Their contentions seem to be reducible to two basic claims:
*Tuđman was the chief, or among 2-3 chief instigators of wars following Yugoslavia's collapse in 1990/91.
*Tuđman's central national political goal was to expell or kill Croatian Serbs, reducing them to a marginal vulnerable minority  
Except for the majority of Serbs and a small, but vociferous entourage of their fellow-travellers, a rather different picture seems to be accepted by the majority of mentally sane populace around the globe:
*the true motivational force behind wars in ex-Yu can be located in genuine Serbian frustrations at the prospect of inevitable dissolution of Yugoslavia. These frustrations have been harnessed by Serbian ideological elite & operationalized by Slobodan Milošević. In short:no Milošević and his supporters-no war. The case of USSR and Russia in 1991. illustrates the point. The USSR fell apart without the bloodshed on similar scale-because Russians didn't want war(s).  
*as for the Croatian Serbs: they fled. Just like French pieds noirs from Algeria, like pro-British Americans after the American revolution, like Portuguese from Mozambique, like Greeks (here, situation is more complex) from Turkey after 1920s war, like ...The same pattern over and over again: an ethnic minority, behaving like the outpost (or, fifth column) of their "mother country's" imperial/expansionist  enterprise/adventure is almost inevitably embroiled into the conflict, orchestrated from the colonial centre. But, if the "natives" win and liberate their country, then the following situation ensues: after the collapse of the grand expansionist plan-the minority invariably ends up in the motherland. If there is a lesson from history to be learned, this is it. Mir Harven 23:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit wars, vandalism etc.

message: I think the page should be put under protection again. Annoying "contributors" (I would call them vandals)((700 k murdered in the Jasenovac c.c. and similar myths, dispelled by Vladimir Zerjavic & others are perpetually recycled without any effort to validate the claims)) haven't tried for a single time to substantiate their changes on the Tuđman page. IMO, this is a clear case of vandalism the page should be protected from. Mir Harven 15:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism & the page protection

message: I know that concept is supported by some marginal Croatian nationalists but could somebody prove it it was supported by Tuđman as well. Luka Jačov 00:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was not. I dont remember he ever addressed the issue. Mir Harven 22:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Montenegro 

message: Tudjman died late on December 9, death was not announced for a long time, therefore... the date I posted and everything else is true...
Evidence and they can not be wrong they are in business of death dates: 
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7942 -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.220.176 (talk • contribs) 22:53, 15 February 2006  (UTC)
:*A contemporary BBC news report from Saturday Feb 11 indicates he died on "Friday" (ie, Feb 10): , which appears to confirm the recent edit.
:* Croatian Wikipedia also says the 10th: :hr:Franjo Tuđman.
:* HRT (Croatian government-owned television) also says the 10th: .
:* Britannica says the 10th: 
:* His political party (HDZ) says the 10th: 
::-- Curps 23:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of death 

message: THE FIND A GRAVE WHICH DEALS WITH EXACT INFORMATION SAYS DECEMBER 9, DECEMBER 10 IT WAS REPORTED ON THAT DAY, YES, THAT'S TRUE, BUT I KNOW MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE IN CROATIA AND CONFIRMED THAT HE DIED DECEMBR 9, LATE EVENING !!!
Here's evidence:
http://www.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/europe/12/10/tudjman.obit/index.html 
Curps and rest of vandals... IT WAS ANNOUNCED AT 2 AM CROATIAN TIME ON DECEMBER 10th,
IT TAKES FEW HOURS TO REPORT, BEFORE FAMILY MEMBERS ARE NOTIFIED, FROM MY SOURCES AND PEOPLE I KNOW IN CROATIA, HE DIED BEFORE 10PM, WHEN LIFE-SUPPORTING MACHINES WERE TAKEN FROM HIM, IN THE ARTICLE ABOVE YOU WILL READ THAT IT DID NOT SPECIFY TIME, HOWEVER NINTH IS OFFICIAL DEATH DATE....
AS FAR AS EVERYTHING ELSE ON IS LIFE...
http://www.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/europe/12/10/tudjman.obit/index.html http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/world00/tudjman.htm
http://geocities.com/georgereevesproject/franjotudjman
:You specify two links supposedly in support of your position: http://www.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/europe/12/10/tudjman.obit/index.html and http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/world00/tudjman.htm . However, neither of these two links specify any date of death. -- Curps 00:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont see why all the fuss about the date of death. Check on the linx given & get over with it. Mir Harven 23:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Curps wrong as usual

message: Who deleted the Montenegrins fact? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Montenegrins? 

message: I edited the section on Tudjman's anti-semitism to reflect a more factual, less emotional and nationalist slant (which takes into account both pro and anti-Tudjman viewpoints), and it was instantly returned to its earlier, inferior state.  The person (or persons) who are so adamantly monitoring this page to ensure it consistently reflects a nationalist whitewash need to understand that they are sacrificing wikipedia's authority and neutrality in their effort to promote an ideologically fixated viewpoint.
:1. get a wiki name. 
:2. then, regular members who are conversant with the topic, will debate your POV and contributions to the page(s).
:3. from my POV, your (or-"your") contributions are nothing more than usual megaSerbian trolling. Mir Harven 21:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Get rid of the blatant nationalism on this page 

message: I also included some extremely anti-semitic quotations from Ciliga's book, which were removed.  Whoever did this obviously has little stake in providing wikipedia readers with objective truth.
:I have read Ciliga's book & there are no "extremely anti-Semitic quotations" out there. Ciliga was a top Communist & Internationalist who dumped his former ideological credo, but didn't switch to any other looney ideology. Mir Harven 21:38, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since I happen to have read Ciliga's book, I know there are no such things. Ciliga was an anti-Zionist (among other things), but not an anti-Semite. Mir Harven 13:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The site & the "quote" originate from the leftist propaganda mindset. It's, to be blunt-an unverified crap. Especially in the context of Mesić's fawning visit to Israel or father and son Goldstein murky political agenda. Father and son are Jewish chauvinists and persons of virtually nil moral integrity. Anyway- "Jewish question" was, in the case of Tuđman, inflated beyond any real significance. Jews and anything Jewish did not play in Tuđman's political credo and ambition any role: it was Serbian hegemony and Croatian nationhood he was focused on. His alleged anti-Semitism became a "controversy" only because of Serbian propagandist-political machinations. There is absolutely no reason to allot this calumny so much space-while true anti-Semites, like Karl Marx and Fyodor Dostoevsky do not get any space with regard to their opinion on that matter- especially since the quote comes from a visibly partisan and ideologically charged side. "Jewish issue", in Tuđman's case, simply isn't of such importance,   nor is the source for it a reliable one. I'd say that insistence on ample discussion on such marginal matters bespeaks of a Jewish ethno-centrism (or, possibly, anti-Tuđman agenda). This quote has a value as a gossip, not the information. Reverted until more rational explanation.Mir Harven 16:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It doesn't. As had been noted above, the page on, say, Karl Marx, a fierce anti-Semite, is a pure & unabashed nonsense. This important article (important because Marx is, no doubt, historically important) is a classic representation of falsification and, let's be blunt-a lie. While I don't think that Marx's anti-Semitism is of much importance, his hagiographers on the page devoted to him did all they could to white-wash their. This outspoken racist (not just anti-Semite) has been "defended" in most ludicrous ways, and the article on him is packed with apologetic nonsense only because those of the other opinion (which is shared by virtually all Marx's biographes who are not hagiographers) have been bored and gave up. So much for wikipedia information credibility, impartiality and "NPOV". Mir Harven 22:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: What's the definitiom of an "anti-Semite" ? That he should be outspoken re his views ? Marx was an anti-Semite, but not an anti-Semitic ideologue (in fact, any ethnic, national or religious adherence was marginal to his historical determinism fantasy). He just disliked Jews and didnt hide it. They werent central to his ideology-but this has nothing to do with the definition of the concept. Mir Harven 13:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: True, but again, you're missing the target. Tuđman used Jews, or Ciliga (among others, for that matter) to analyze & expound his views on the Croatian condition. One could argue that Tuđman's stance was food for bears compared to Marx's personal obsession: Tuđman referenced the Jews in one of his books; Marx wrote an entire essay "devoted" to their condition (as he saw it). Tuđman did not aver that Judaism is essentially parasitic human condition & that those "ensnared" by it are doomed to huckstering, money-lending & exploitation-unlike Marx. For Tuđman, Judaism is not something exclusively vicious, without redeeming qualities. For Marx, Judaism is parasitic & stinx, as is Christianity which he, interestingly enough, equates with Judaism's  "lechery"-a position similar to the 19th and 20th century's neo-pagans who considered Xtianity to be just Judaism refurbished, an alien middle-Eastern implant polluting the true European spirit based on Hellenic & Teutonic heritage. But, we strayed...Mir Harven 13:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: See above, you missed the point (at least, that's my POV). Mir Harven 13:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: His "supporters" discuss it only because they, I suppose, got to react on politically motivated caluminators's fabrications. Just like the French say: throw the mud, something would stick anyway.   The issue simply does not deserve the space it was alloted to. This would be as nonsensical as to discuss at length of, say, 30% of the article on the Jews, pro et con "arguments" on their role as "Christ killers". Mir Harven 22:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm....Agreed (with the latter part). I'll revert the page, but without later "quotation" nonsense. Mir Harven 22:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: No, on principle. A page should be  Mir Harven 22:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ciliga 

message: I found a source, which, although it has an extremely anti-Tudjman bias, includes really large portions of his "Bespuca" (2nd ed., 1989) translated into English. You can see the context and all, as well as page numbers so everyone can check. Thus, the Parenti quote about Hitler's New European Order (which he appears to have taken from the New York Times) is proved to have been taken out of context. If Tudjman was anti-Semitic, it appears to have been in a rather mild form, without racism and such. Anyway, I tried to summarize them and include them in the article so that everybody can judge for himself. If somebody has objections, please take the original of the book (I'm sure you can find that second edition in every larger Croatian library) and check the quotations on the relevant pages. If you find something that you believe is a mistranslation, do point it out, but also write the Croatian text on the talk page so that everybody can judge for himself. --85.187.44.131 20:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ciliga 2 

message: Mylan writes: "Tuđman was tried again in 1981 for spreading national hatred, which was a serious crime in Communist SFRY, while giving an interview to the Swedish TV on the position of Croats in Yugoslavia and got three years of prison, but again he only served a portion, this time eleven months. "
Is there any source to prove that "spreading national hatred" is, officially, what he was convicted for?
Found a book where the accusation and the sentence are quoted:
"- dakle, uz pomoć iz inozemstva zlonamjerno i neistinito prikazivao družstveno-političke prilike u zemlji,
- pa da je time počinio krivično djelo protiv osnova socialističkog samoupravnog društvenog useđenja i sigurnosti SFRJ - neprijateljskim propagandom - opisano u članu 133 stav 1 i 2 KZ SFRJ a kažnjivo po članu 133 stav 2 KZ SFRJ"--85.187.44.131 15:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What was Tudjman convicted for? 

message: I've seen in this article (of course, even more on other pages) an excessive & frequently absurd policy of putting a  tag on virtually every contention. While I do agree that some more controversial issues need to be corroborated by citing sources and external linx-the habit has in many cases got out of control & become an absurdity in itself: Dostoevsky's masterpiece is "Brothers Karamazov" (who said this ?); some consider Nietzsche's "Thus spake Zarathustra" not his magnum opus, but a gorgeous failure (who agrees & disagrees ?); Poincare's work in relativity is mathematically more important than Einstein's (who said this ?). The overcitation is a nuisance & nonsense (who said this ? I did.) Mir Harven 12:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. His books are in the universities curricula. What kind of "citation" is needed in such instance ? is this a joke ? Mir Harven 22:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, this is a misperception. Tuđman's policy with regard to the Greater Serbia is evident from his texts and interviews during the 1991.-1995. wars. "Bespuća povijesne zbiljnosti" were just one polemical text saying what was possible at the moment. There is no need to quote anything from "Bespuća", since this is a passage on Tuđman's strategy and not on his explicut statements before the 1991.-1995. wars. Mir Harven 22:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: No need for a quote, since the sentence doesn't hinge on the anything written explicitly in the book. Mir Harven 22:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Is this a joke ? Was Gulag an institution for re-education ? Had Mao's ideology deviated from Marx's ? Does one have to prove, by quotation, that water is-wet ? Mir Harven 22:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It is in the Jasenovac official page. Or, it's lesser. We'll check it out. Mir Harven 22:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: On wiki citation policy

message: Justifications coming any moment. --85.187.44.131 18:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  My latest edit 

message: To all editors: Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈  t • @ 10:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:3RR]] Warning 

message: Who are "History writers"? Why does "These numbers are nowadays widely considered to be inaccurate" and "There seems to be a general consensus that Tudjman has made the following statements:" not have a reference? does it refer to the a few lines below it...? Also, editorializing edits like "even more atrocious than they actually had been" is against NPOV. I am warning to people to get it together here, I don't want to have to protect this page or block due to edit warring.Voice-of-AllT|@|ESP 14:22, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The "these numbers are widely considered to be inaccurate" may still get reverted in, perhaps the other one. I just wanted to be clear that statements like that are not exeptable. There is a long, light, edit conflict. The it is not enough to really call it an edit war just yet imo.Voice-of-AllT|@|ESP 16:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Now that the page is blocked (at my request), I'm waiting for somebody to propose some kind of compromise. I've tried several times but, as we know, I have failed. 
Note that I'm trying to follow the wiki wikipedia:dispute resolution procedure as closely as possible. My ultimate ambition is to make one (no matter which one) of the currently alternating versions of the page plainly "illegal", which might, hopefully, put an end to this old boring edit war and allow us to start a new and exciting one :) - or perhaps even to start developing the article in a normal way. --85.187.44.131 17:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Prosecution documents of ICTY clearly identify Tudjman as a leader of a supposed "joint criminal enterprise" which cleansed Croatia of Serbs.
*Are there other issues to be commented on?
Yes, a number of quotes in the end of the article, which are ascribed to Tudjman by his critics, but the sources are more or less dubious. See thread 32 (Quotes and Croatian POV). Mylan and the rest insist on including them, Mir Harven and the rest revert them, and my failed compromise was to include them, while mentioning explicitly that the authenticity of the quotes is disputed and that reliable sources are lacking - which Mylan more or less accepted, but Mir Harven and the rest rejected. I'm placing Mylan's last version of the quotes in a separate thread entitled "Quotes"
*What is the exact nature of the dispute:
*#That the sentence is not true?
*#That the sentence is not sourced?
*#That the sentence is not important enough to be put in the header?
*#That the sentence is misleading?
*#Other?
It looks to me like the argument is about #4; but remember, we commenters are new here. Septentrionalis 19:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I will accept your compromise, if others accept it.--Medule 08:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Tuđman led his nation in its struggle for survival. His actions, unlike those of his opponent, were in most cases in proportion to the situation in question. As for the ethnic cleansing accusation, recent testimony by the former US ambassador Peter Galbraith during the Mile Martić trial in the Hague confirms once more what was already known - Serbs were ordered to leave their homes en masse by their own political leadership, which also obstinately refused any negotiations on peaceful reintegration of Krajina into Croatia. Cf. the Eastern Slavonia - it was reintegrated peacefully and there was no mass exodus of Serbs there (they still live in Vukovar in large numbers). There is as much sense in including this paragraph in the header as in including allegations about Dresden bombings in the header of Winston Churchill or Japanese internment in FDR. --Elephantus 20:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent comparison - Tudjman is Churchill, Milosevic is Hitler, and Gotovina is Mother Theresa. We should include those in the opening statements of the articles as undisputable, undeniable facts, citing Elephantus.
Arguing about whether he actually was guilty or not takes us nowhere (there are tons of arguments and authorities on both sides). As for your comparison - few people hate Churchill or Roosevelt today, but just look at the headers of Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon (mentioning, respectively, terrorism and the Sabra and Shatila massacre). Those headers can be summarized in the word "controversial", even though I'm sure many Israelis and Palestinians would like to have "clean" headers for their former leaders. The problem is that many others wouldn't. So - something like the word "controversial" should be present, and as for the Hague - does it really matter? It's just a detail. The very fact that you're taking the pains to resist so vehemently would almost make one think that it is important - and, consequently, that it should be included in the header. Why not include also what you said about Galbraith (or rather, your version of the events generally) and be done with it? --85.187.44.131 23:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the lead paragraph should be about undisputed facts, not disputed claims. Opening with a dispute in the lead erodes the whole article. See for example George W. Bush, another controversial contemporary politician. --Elephantus 14:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any opening paragraph should point out that the guy is a contraversial figure, at the very least - for Croats a national hero, while for Serbs he is one of the worst criminals in recent Croatian history (its hard to beat Croatian WWII crimes of course), who bouldozered Jasenovac, expelled 500,000 Serbs, send his troups to Bosnia and Herzegovina, renamed streets after Milo Budak, rehabilitated Ustashe, took money from WWII Ustashe criminals, organized Croatian secession in illegal (i.e. criminal) way, and indeed was identified as a leader of joint criminal enterprise in ICTY after his death, while investigations were under way during his life. Maayaa 15:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compromises 

message: Looks we're confronted with the following situation:
1. user 85. ** remains virtually anonymous. Sure, one doesnt need to disclose personal details in order to participate in wiki-but, I dont feel comfortable talking to a number. So, if this user wants to be taken seriously, (s)he should better register. Under any name.
2. as far as I've seen, this user's edits are focused mainly on issues regarding Croatia's ex-prez Tuđman, plus tangential themes of Serbophobia. All in all-the majority of edits are Croats's related, and in particular, Tuđman-related. Interesting, eh ? For essentially anonymous user, eh ?
3. the profile of her/his alterations is to smear Tuđman by allegedly toning-down chauvinist nonsense of users Medule or Mylan (who knows, maybe these are one and the same guy ? Or, more realistically, they seem to be related in a joint propaganda warfare). It looks like this: a heavily biased Serbian user spews hatred and nonsense no person of sane mind would swallow. Then, the 85.** whatever enters the game & tries to sell, say, 50% of the nonsense as "mitigated" version.
4. the sources of this user are some wacko socialist sites of spurious credibility (one can find really everything there) and pages "confirmed" by Serbian users as being factually true. Evidently, this user hasn't read anything Tuđman actually wrote. I don't know whether he reads Croatian (maybe, yes-maybe, no), but his obsession-we might call it that- with everything potentially nasty or mercenary, associated with Tuđman almost exclusively via Serbian propagandist sources & of little or no credibility is, without exaggeration- insatiable. Any person of sane mind would ask: why ? Why is an anonymous user so obsessed with      some politican & writer who's only of regional importance ? It's pretty obvious that this user (OK-it's also "guessable" from the number) is a Serbian/pro-Serbian propagandist residing in the Balkans engaged in anti-Croat propaganda warfare. It's as simple as that.
5. but- what if the user's intention is simple improvement of the article ? Then, I guess, his edits would not have been so "unilateral". Now and then, "good" and "bad" info on Tuđman would have appeared in his edits. No such thing. Only concocted half-truths & lies. The user, as seen from his edits, actually doesn't know what Tuđman had written, commanded to his armies or talked to international negotiators. (S)he only "knows" tits-and-bits of claptrap circulating in Greater Serbian paranoid circles. 
6. at the end, I would like to address the issue of writing articles that are "composed" mainly of selected "quotes", hearsay and media gutter pieces. Well-this is not the way to compose a page. This is, probably, a way of spreading agenda one would like to be presented as factual truth. Hence, the very way of editing this user is practicing (and similar ones, like Medule etc.) is a kind of distortion. If (s)he wants to contribute truly, then, write something not copy-pasted from Serbian propagandist sites or containing a piece of valuable new info not contained in this page. Hmmm...seeing what I've written above, looks like I'm only joking. Mir Harven 21:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I-and, I'd say the rest of mentally sane editors of this page, are fed up with talking to a number. Frankly-get a name or get lost. Mir Harven 09:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

text: To 85.187.44.131: I don't think a comparison with Arafat or even Sharon is justified or appropriate here. I'd say it would be more appropriate to compare Tudjman with David Ben-Gurion who is probably hated and reviled by more people than Tudjman will ever be, yet none of this is mentioned in the article about him. This may not be possible in this article, but I think that one thing should be remembered: Tudjman bashers consistently choose to forget that he was democratically elected to the presidency of a country and that he swore to uphold, among other things, that country's territorial integrity, which was under threat at the time. Had he not acted to uphold it using all means available to him, it would be a neglect of basic duties as president. --Elephantus 11:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: User 85.*** ... whatever edits

message: "Another frequently misused quotation is the claim that "the establishment of Hitler's new European order could be justified by the need both to remove the Jews" (1989, 2 ed., p.149), which in fact describes the hidden agenda of the Hitlerite propaganda machine rather than Tuđman's own opinions."
Another frequently misused quotation is the claim that "the establishment of Hitler's new European order could be justified by the need both to remove the Jews" (1989, 2 ed., p.149), which in fact describes the agenda of the Nazi military machine rather than Tuđman's own opinions.
I think that would be more correct, unless you think that Germany committed all off its crimes by simply publishing propoganda, or if you think there agenda was at all hidden.
:No, it's difficult to change it; the article was blocked because of the constant disruptive edit wars, and no consensus has been reached so far, so unblocking it seems like a bad idea to me. I don't think it's an urgent necessity, people do know what Hitler did. Now, the sentence really has a bad wording (I wrote it in haste); it should be something like:
Another frequently misused quotation is the claim that "the establishment of Hitler's new European order could be justified by the need to remove the Jews" (1989, 2 ed., p.149), which in fact describes the Nazi ideology and its hidden motivation rather than Tuđman's own opinions.--85.187.44.131 12:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we please change this sentence 

message: This article has been protected for weeks and weeks and weeks, and nobody has edited the talk page in two weeks.  Oh for heaven's sake.  Unprotected. --Tony Sidaway 00:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotected

message: Having read the article carefully, I have come to the conclusion that the text, although could (of course) be improved in numerous ways-mainly through quoting various reliable sources- is controversial in at least one manner: Tuđmanophobes (to call them that) insist on inserting the fact of ICTY indictment against Tuđman, which is "muffled" in other prominent Croatian military figures indictments. While the existence of indictment, embedded in other indictments, is undeniably true, this fact, mentioned in a paragraph of the text, has become the bone of contention of pro- and anti-Tuđman "factions" meddling around the article. All I can give is a personal opinion: I do not think that such a prosecutorial endeavour warrants anything more than a mention in the article. "Anti-Tuđmanites" tend to, at least I think so, not to inform the general wiki audience, but to strongly imply, beyond the actual weight of the issue, that Tuđman was "guilty" of ethnic cleansing and similar matters. Phrased thusly, the article in this form does not present the information, but misinformation. As they say, the Devil is in the details. Hence, I agree with Elephantus' position on the matter-the Ben Gurion parallel- and have reverted the text to the previous version I consider more balanced. It is, in my opinion, a bit pro-Tuđman, but only a bit. Contrary to the other faction's interventions. Bardon Dornal 17:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason why I'm incorporating my edits in both versions is because I am more or less neutral, and I want the edit warriors to revert back to a version that contains my edits. I would appreciate it if you take that into account and don't revert anything I do just because I have done it after Medule. --85.187.44.131 14:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The article modifications

message: I've reverted to the last version by user Dornal (sp ?) because:
*user Antonrojo has done a good cleaning job-but, he's thrown out a baby with a bathwater. I agree that some passages are superfluous, but "purist" interventions that seek to eliminate adjectives like "tremenduous" & to stick to factography (a reduced one, for that matter) only, miss the point-if applied consistently. Allegations against Tuđman, as well as various babbles, need to be addressed and explained- following the policy of undue weight. Antonrojo's edits have left us only bones, with no meat on them.
*other edits differ, so I wouldn't address any particular one. So, although "back to facts" policy is a healthy one, it cannot be implemented by chopping a 30% of the article-and not some insignificant blabber, for that matter, but a thorough discussion of debatable points.  Therefore I've reverted the page. Mir Harven 18:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Revert

message: This man was a true patriot and was the only man in the end to regain croatia indepedance. But there's one thing i dont understand why isin't he praised more then Ante pavelic, after all he has acheived more for Croatia then any other Croat since Croatian king Tommislav. Being a Croat myself i have not seen enough praise from Croat's towards the great Franjo Tudjman, I think i have heard more praise for Ante pavelic then for Tudjman and i have never understood that. Another thing i feel is that alot of Franjo Tudjman colleages that were with him back then have betrayed him, Im talking about Stipe Mesic and Ivo Sandar who have talked against him and have been calling him a murderour. My opion of these two that they are trataiors and should be charged for treason or better yet to be shot and never be heard of agian. --Marbus2 5 11:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the comparison is unfounded - Slovenia didn't have a Serb minority that with the aid of the JNA (by that time it had become a Serbian army in terms of makeup and goals) tried to amputate and ethnically cleanse parts of the country. How many Vukovars, Dubrovniks, Karlovacs & Zadars in Slovenia - in short Slovenia had a brief war and did not have with the social, economic and political consequences of a devastating war.  iruka 22:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Tudjman was a nothing as a bad dictator wannabe. If he could, but he wanted to, he would let police and dogs on the union protests in late 90s. There was the bigest post-communist protest in Zagreb, after he tried to bann radiostation Radio 101. He also didnt wanted opositional major of Zagreb so he dissmissed him. Croatian democracy wasn't born in 1990, but the day he finaly dropped dead. Yes, you can call this oppinion "yougoslavic", but that says more about you than me. There is nothing yugoslavit than being a anti-fashist pro-croatian democrat....Yugoslavia was nothing about that, but Tudjman regime wasn't too.--Marko Jurcic 11:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Franjo Tudjman a Great Man''' 

message: Removed 
His brand of nationalism included restoring the flags and other symbols used by the old fascist Ustasha regime that had fought alongside the Nazis during World War II.
This is blatantly wrong.  The symbols used pre-date WW2, some by several hundred years and are different to the ones used by the Ustashi in WW2. 
croatian_quoll 06:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Reference 

message: Replaced blamed to accused w.r.t the notion of benevalent attitude to NDH b/c it is an accusation - there are no facts to support this but opinions of political opponents.
Replaced equally rampant with brand w.r.t Croat nationalism. The exercise of equivalence is a subjective one @ best and not supported by facts.  iruka 16:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The President

message: This article is subjektive and gives a "answer" of pro-tudjman orientation on every critisicm. Tudjman commited agression on Bosnia and genocide on Bosniaks, his stenograms proves this and he is mentiond in the Haag in trials against his ministars as part of a "criminal enterprise". Stop glorifying him the Croation people should throw away his criminal legacy it was the croatian soldiers who made Croatia independent Tudjman was betraying Vukovar and sending arms and soldiers to another countrys teritory to fight against it.Dr. Thug 02:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subjektive 

message: It’s worded very poetically and I’m sure is historically accurate but it’s not very grammatically correct.--J intela 06:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar