Template talk:Seduction community

message: I think as a good guide, we should say you need to be able to find three news articles about someone before we count them as notable - otherwise we start to have people like Ray Gordon, Shark, stRiPPed, and so on adding vanity pages about themselves. Any thoughts?
WoodenBuddha 12:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See my comments on his page.  I removed him, because there is no evidence so far that he is actually a member of the seduction community.  It's encouraging that he will be at Cliffs, but I don't think that alone is enough to qualify him as a community member.  If you can show that his ideas are substantially influenced by the community, or that he is well-known in the community in Europe and it's simply a fluke that neither WoodenBuddha nor I have heard of him, then we can put him back in the template.  I think it's reasonable to require a burden of proof for people who want to add new names to it. --SecondSight 00:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It is indisputable that he should be on the template now that we have an article for him --SecondSight (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: 1. Credibility - Press coverage in form of at least 3 news articles seems a reasonable indicator of credibility.
2. History - You can only be a "Pioneer" if you have contributed something over a decent amount of time. Therefore I would suggest that if the person hasn't been around for more than at least 2 or 3 years, he should not be eligible for this list.
3. Quality - May be granted if the person has contributed something of quality (articles, products, ...) which does not fall in the seduction-junk category.
4. ?
Johnny Rocketfingers 16:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criteria For Making The List 

message: In the interests of keeping the template from getting too long and clunky, I think it's reasonable to require people to satisfy a burden of proof for showing why someone qualifies before adding them.  I also suggest that people be only added to the template once they have a wikipedia page (this will help satisfy the requirement that they be notable, and it will avoid nasty-looking red links).  --SecondSight 00:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Additions 

message: I added Nick from www.playboyskool.de to this template, whom I also created the wikipedia page about. I found numerous media articles about him and it appears he will also be at cliffs PU convention this summer (2006). Apparently he has been around for years, mainly in Europe.
:See my comments on his page.  I removed him, because there is no evidence so far that he is actually a member of the seduction community.  It's encouraging that he will be at Cliffs, but I don't think that alone is enough to qualify him as a community member.  If you can show that his ideas are substantially influenced by the community, or that he is well-known in the community in Europe and it's simply a fluke that neither WoodenBuddha nor I have heard of him, then we can put him back in the template.  I think it's reasonable to require a burden of proof for people who want to add new names to it. --SecondSight 00:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nick 

message: I've noticed some attempts to add Ron Louis and David Copeland to the template.  I have heard them, and they are commercial seduction teachers who perhaps deserve a wikipedia article of their own.  But as far as I know, they are not involved in the community in any significant way.  So they should not be added back in without justification being provided.  --SecondSight 00:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ron Louis and David Copeland 

message: I added Stephen Nash because he was mentioned in the Game, as Playboyla, has gotten news articles in a few New York newspapers, the Chicago Tribune, and has been getting media requests through NBC, and BBC. He also continues to blog with free advice regularly, and most in the seduction community respect his opinion.
Dglass81 13:33, 10 Feb 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stephen Nash 

message: Double your dating.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.117.83 (talk) 06:40, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  David DeAngelo 

message: Savoy should be on there.  His wikipedia page has a few news articles and there are more on the Love Systems site.  He's President of Mystery Method Corp, he runs Love Systems, he wrote Magic Bullets, he co-wrote the Routines Manual, he was a consultant to the VH-1 Pickup Artist show, he has spoken at David D, Cliff's List, etc.  He's been around 4 or more years.  He runs The Attraction Forums.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camera123456 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Savoy 

message: Before I realized there was a discussion page for this template, I added Owen Cook (Tyler) to the template.   Of anyone in the seduction community, Owen was the biggest glaring omission.  As there is now an Owen page, I believe having him up here is not a stretch (considering we have people like Lance Mason and Juggler on here)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sedcom (talk • contribs) 19:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is indisputable that he should be on the template now that we have an article for him --SecondSight (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Owen Cook]] (Tyler) 

message: I have added David X to the template. I believe he meets all three criteria and more, for the following reasons: there are many articles written about him, including the long description on Thundercat's blog, the mention of him in "The Game" and the article linked on his Wikipedia page. The History does not leave room for any doubt, since David has been an MPUA since before the community was born - he has started teaching 15 years ago (asper his newsletter). Moreover, he could be argued to truly be "the godfather of seduction", as he has coached Cliff from Cliff's list who was the central point of creating the community. Sources note that David has given Cliff the idea that seduction can be taught by creating a simple system of two rules. Here is where the final criteria, quality, comes in, as David's teachings are renowned for their simplicity and effectiveness. I therefore believe that there is no question that David X should be a part of this list. 
—Preceding unsigned comment added by davenry007 (talk • contribs) 19:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  David X 

message: I noticed this page was quietly renamed to Pioneers of the Seduction Community by 70.110.203.215 on 18 July, 2008.  Although this was discussed years ago (see above), I wondered what others thought of this change, and whether it should be changed back until we have a chance to discuss it. 
:First, I oppose the page being renamed without discussion. However, "Pioneers of the Seduction Community" is closer to what I've always wanted the template to be (it used to be called "Seduction Gurus," or something like that). I think it was renamed because merely requiring notability in the Wikipedia sense is a low bar to pass, and doesn't reflect whether a figure is at all important in the community. Here's an example:
:Recently, an article on Dimitri the Lover was written. He was added to the template. However, he didn't seem to fit with the other people, who had been famous inside and outside the community for years. Dimitri has recently gained followers in the community, but he is only a marginal member. He is not respected in the community. There is no evidence that his teachings are descended from the community. Having him on the template gives the impression that he is an admired leader like the other members of the template, and that people in the community in general share his opinions, which is not true. His notability and media attention stem less from his actual participation in the community, and more from his attitudes towards women and legal troubles.
:In the past, any notable member of the seduction community would have to be an established guru. But now that the community is getting better known, anyone loosely affiliated with the community with a few news articles about them could end up on this template. Requiring that someone be a "pioneer" keeps people like Dimitri off the template.
:The problem, of course, is how to define a "pioneer." "Notable" has a specific meaning on Wikipedia; pioneer does not, and we would have to debate it on a case-by-case basis. This could get cumbersome. I don't know. Another problem with "pioneer" is that is might exclude more recent, but still respected, gurus (who are still admired, but haven't really been around long enough to be called "pioneers"). While wikipedia-notable might be too broad, pioneer might be too narrow. I don't know, maybe narrow is good. I'm just thinking of whether someone like Tim from RSD or Brad P should be includeable if they got a few news articles about them. They are definitely respected, but it might be debatable whether they are "pioneers." --SecondSight (talk) 06:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming the page 

message: Should the order suggest the level of notability? I noticed that Savoy was put up near the top.  We either
1) Go to alphabetical order
2) Leave as-is but put new names at the bottom 
3) Decide on some sort of notability ranking 
I strongly discourage #3. #2 is my preference, but I could be persuaded to switch to #1 as it's fairer. 
In the short term I recommend putting Savoy's name at the bottom. --Sedcom (talk) 23:12, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of the names on the template 

message: Vitasmortis just added Matador to the list. Although he is very well known in the community, he is mostly known as Mystery's wingman. He has not innovated the community in any way that would grant him on this list. Looking at all other members on the list, each one has contributed to the dating community, but Matador has not. I would not put him on this list.Coaster7 (talk) 21:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matador 

message: Jordan Harbinger is not even close to meeting the bar for this page.  His addition slipped through the cracks (easy to do since the format was changed from a sidebar) Sedcom (talk) 02:09, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jordan Harbinger 

message: WHAT??
--UberKaeL (talk) 18:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mario Luna