Talk:Interactive fiction/Archive 1

message: Is (recently added) Bedlam really a notable work? I'm an IF fan, and I've never heard of it... I certainly wouldn't think it's more notable than others not mentioned, like Adventureland or Jigsaw. (Now, Slouching Towards Bedlam, on the other hand...) -GregoryWeir 8 July 2005 17:59 (UTC)
:In that era, most commercial IF games were ported to multiple systems, so a TRS-80 only game would seem to be of limited significance.  Also, the other games on the list include an explanation of why they are significant. ManoaChild 03:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. If someone has a good reason why it's notable, they can put it back in. -GregoryWeir 18:03, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bedlam 

message: This was just added as a development system.  It seems to be very new.  Is anybody actually using this? ManoaChild 00:27, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No. It was just announced on rec.arts.int-fiction, and no one heard of it before.  Grue  05:37, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  p2pmud 

message: Can we have more information on how to choose a game authoring tool that is right for you? It mentions for example Inform and TADS. Is one of those two easier to use or more effective? Or is one more popular or does one have a bigger or more active community of users?--Sonjaaa 07:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither is especially easy to use or effective. They're both extremely old, dating to the early '90s if not the '80s. I would suggest you look at some of the more modern tools. Deco 07:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks, can you recommend one or two?--Sonjaaa 07:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I stand corrected. I hadn't heard anything from TADS since 1995, but it seems there in a TADS 3 in the works and a peek at the quick start guide shows a vast improvement since then. I was also going to suggest the ColdC or LambdaMOO engines, which incorporate sophisticated runtime-extensible prototype-based object-oriented languages. They're intended for multiplayer online text-based games, so they don't have TADS or Inform's infrastructure for traditional TAG gameplay, but with the proper infrastructure they can be applied just as well to single-player traditional TAGs. Deco 07:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I wouldn't know about such systems. But current IF development is focused almost solely on Inform, TADS 2 or 3, Adrift, and occasionally Glulxe, Alan, or Hugo. By using such systems, you guarantee that you will be able to do anything that you want to do (in 99.999% of cases) and have access to wide community support, and the assumption that most users would already to familiar with the system.--Fangz 14:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Glulxe is not separate from Inform.  Glulx refers to a virtual machine; glulxe is the name of the standard interpreter for that machine; and Inform is the language used to compile games targeted at that virtual machine. The next release of Inform uses glulx as the default target, rather than the Z-machine. --Rpresser 22:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inform or TADS? 

message: As impressed as I was by Risorgimento Represso, I'm not sure it is notable enough to be on the very short list of notable games.  Any opinions?  -GregoryWeir 21:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't play it, but most likely it's not more notable that Slouching Towards Bedlam, which finished 1st in IFComp 2003. Slouching is notable for being the game with the highest Comp score ever, but I didn't play it as well, so I don't know if it's worth including.  Grue  07:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Risorgimento Represso 

message: I've removed QuantumLink Serial from the list of notable works on the grounds that it isn't IF at all.  IF is (by the current definition), "...software containing simulated environments in which players use text commands to control characters."  Most notably, QLS wasn't software (it was written on the fly by Tracy Reed).  Based on the description from QuantumLink Serial's page, it's more of a collaborative online fiction writing in which people beyond the author offered suggestions and guidance. Alan De Smet | Talk 20:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing QuantumLink Serial from list. 

message: Façade (Interactive Story) - The curent definition of IF is "...software containing simulated environments in which players use text commands to control characters."  By and large that matches, but the only "control" you engage in using text commands is what dialogue your character will speak.  Other actions (moving around the room, looking at things, hugging people) are all mouse controlled.  While not strictly in the definition, I suspect most people would be surprised at IF that lacked text output.  Facade lacks text output; all output is graphics and audio (primarily dialogue).  Facade shared many goals with many works of IF, it's clearly trying to create a simulated environment.  It's a fascinating experiment with ramifications for IF (and other types of gameplay).  But I'm not sure it's IF.  If Facade is IF, why isn't King's Quest I: Quest for the Crown and other early graphic adventure games that used text input? Alan De Smet | Talk 21:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Façade seems to be a ground breaking modern classic, from the reviews I've read. It seems such an important work that maybe we need to bend the rules a bit to accomodate it. --Salix alba (talk) 21:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I removed it. Façade is an important step in computer game development.  I suspect it will influence games of many different types for years to come.  But it's not IF.  If we weaken the definition of IF to let Façade in, we no longer have a useful definition. Alan De Smet | Talk 05:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I support Alan De Smet on this point. —  Adam Conover † 14:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove Façade from Notable Works list? 

message: A well meaning robot-assisted edit trashed the formatting of the sample transcript.  The transcript used "blank" lines that actually had a single space to keep the paragraphs of the transcript in a single block (which is correct).  This isn't the first time that this has happened.  Relatedly, relatively few IF players these days are looking at monospaced fonts on their screens.  Most modern interpreters support the nicities of modern displays, with proportional fonts, anti-aliasing, and the like.  Indeed, for many people IF looks a heck of a lot like a page of text, say, a web page.  So I formatted the sample transcript as just nicely formatted text, not code.  I think it looks more like what you average user sees, it's resistant to accidents like the above.  Seems like a win all around. On the down side, the blockquotes I've used for indenting aren't quite accurate.  The text is indented a fixed number of spaces.  The blockquotes also add errant whitespace above and below.  I can't figure out how to get what I want out of Wikipedia's syntax and would appreciate any one else who can fix it. Alan De Smet | Talk 04:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overhauled formatting on sample transcript 

message: The description here says that "Photopia" was highly controversial, but the game's article does not descibe the controvery. Can someone add the nature of the controvery here and at the game's article? BarkingDoc 19:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photopia 

message: It looks like there is decent grounds to include the superlatives in the "Notable Works," and I agree that the games should have a description of why they are noteworthy, but it would be very helpful if those citations could be included in the article. Otherwise it looks like POV to the casual reader: the supporting link should appear direct after each statement. BarkingDoc 19:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Works 

message: This article covers almost exactly the same territory as Adventure game. ----Isaac R 05:24, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adventure Game 

message: The External Links could use some pruning.  The non-English links leap out to me as being of questionable value.  The current non-English sites listed don't appear to be generally important; they fill the same niche as English-language sites already linked.  As this is the English-language part of Wikipedia, these seem to be of questionable value.  They seem better fitting to the Spanish and French versions (as appropriate.  I'm not against foreign language links, but they should provide value beyond "Just like the link above, but in Spanish."  For reference, I'm currently referring to "*SPAC, a free online newsletter in Spanish." "*Club de Aventuras AD (CAAD), the portal of the Spanish interactive fiction community." and "*Sur Terre, interactive fiction in German and French."  (I think the list needs even more pruning than this, but one step at a time.) Alan De Smet | Talk 04:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Smell props...? No, seriously, I'm not sure I can or wish to argue strongly for the inclusion of LGoP, though I would have expected to see it on the list. I don't really know enough about IF in general (and much of what I do know is centered around Infocom) or about LGoP, which isn't on the rather short list of games I've actually tried. Still: If not the first racy IF (which does seem quite improbable), I understand it to be the most talked about and possibly the first attempt by such an "important" producer (and maybe by any large-scale commercial manufacturer of IF) to enter that market. Some aspects of it are certainly discussed today except from the raciness as such and it being part of the "Infocom canon" - the different modes and the possibility and method of choosing your sex (and the "smell things", whatever they were called)are the things that I think of first, but there may be more. Also, I think the fact that it is not exactly "pornographic" (though perhaps partly marketed as such) but rather part of mainstream IF may be part of what makes it noteworthy. It was probably part of what made it stand out at the time (though, admittedly, people would probably have been more surprised if Infocom had released hardcore porn, even in written form). Lastly, I guess it has some interest as part of the battle against graphic adventures (being, if I recall correctly, at least partly a response to Leasure Suit Larry).Ever wonder 13:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way I have no idea why Leasure Suit Larry is a red-link (as it appears to me), there is an article.Ever wonder 13:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops... now I get it. Leisure Suit Larry. Still odd that I managed to spell it right several times when looking up the article but got it wrong twice here.Ever wonder 13:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purge non-English external links? 

message: I wanted to ask if Leather Goddesses of Phobos should be added to the list, and thought it might be a good idea to create, at the same time, a "general" section for such questions. Ever wonder 12:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Smell props...? No, seriously, I'm not sure I can or wish to argue strongly for the inclusion of LGoP, though I would have expected to see it on the list. I don't really know enough about IF in general (and much of what I do know is centered around Infocom) or about LGoP, which isn't on the rather short list of games I've actually tried. Still: If not the first racy IF (which does seem quite improbable), I understand it to be the most talked about and possibly the first attempt by such an "important" producer (and maybe by any large-scale commercial manufacturer of IF) to enter that market. Some aspects of it are certainly discussed today except from the raciness as such and it being part of the "Infocom canon" - the different modes and the possibility and method of choosing your sex (and the "smell things", whatever they were called)are the things that I think of first, but there may be more. Also, I think the fact that it is not exactly "pornographic" (though perhaps partly marketed as such) but rather part of mainstream IF may be part of what makes it noteworthy. It was probably part of what made it stand out at the time (though, admittedly, people would probably have been more surprised if Infocom had released hardcore porn, even in written form). Lastly, I guess it has some interest as part of the battle against graphic adventures (being, if I recall correctly, at least partly a response to Leasure Suit Larry).Ever wonder 13:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way I have no idea why Leasure Suit Larry is a red-link (as it appears to me), there is an article.Ever wonder 13:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops... now I get it. Leisure Suit Larry. Still odd that I managed to spell it right several times when looking up the article but got it wrong twice here.Ever wonder 13:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Addition/Removal

message: Any anonymous user drive-by added a link to Malinche without explanation.  (I hate that.)  I added some context.  On one hand it's arguably an advertising link.  On the other hand, to my knowledge, Malinche is the only existing business doing for-profit IF development as an active business venture.  There is some debate over the quality of Sherman's work, but I believe he's publically claimed the business is profitable.  He's pretty minor league, but these days so is all of IF. So I propose instead of just deleting as advertising, we add a short section on the current state of commercial IF.  There isn't much, but there is some (Malinche, obviously, as well as 1893, and Emily Short's contracted project). Alan De Smet | Talk 22:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malinche 

message: Jake Wildstrom did a good edit, removing some sketchy stuff and adding the useful information on Future Boy to the "modern" section.  In the process he deleted the bit about Emily Short's "City of Secrets".  I've readded it.  I believe it to be relevant: it's the only modern documented case I'm found of a company (a band in this case) trying to invest in IF (for promotional reasons in this case).  That it fell through is also interesting and may reinforce how difficult it is to mark real money on it.  Maybe it's not useful enough, but I think it deserves a second chance and perhaps some discussion before getting deleted. Alan De Smet | Talk 21:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  City of Secrets 

message: I hope it isn't terribly wrong of me to just mention Wikipedia:Sandbox/Storytelling#Text adventure game - At War with a Crossword Puzzle which I recently started. Might be fun!Ever wonder 12:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sandbox thingie 

message: Any room for mentioning this interesting but bizare work by Victor Thorn called Return to Eternity, it sounds interesting. Here is the Amazon article.
:It's certainly interesting, but I'm not sure that it fits with the main focus of this article. Perhaps a more appropriate place for it is at visual novel. -Thibbs (talk) 14:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anybody Ever Hear of This? 

message: For anyone who's interested, I created an Infocom userbox. It looks like this:
The code to include it on a userpage is: Feel free to use it if it strikes your fancy. -DynSkeet  (Talk) 20:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infocom userbox 

message: While I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream (computer game) is a great game, and it's an adventure game, it's not interactive fiction.  I may be misremembering, but I believe the game relies heavily on graphics and (from memory) audio.  Most of the interaction with the game is with the mouse, not text.  If I've made the wrong call, please add it back and explain my mistake here.  Alan De Smet | Talk 22:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" 

message: ---
There should be the interpreter GARGOYLES mentionned! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.235.215.122 (talk • contribs) 08:45, October 22, 2006  (UTC)
I assume you mean the Gargoyle interpreter?  It's a fine interpreter and the one I use, but it's not really relevant.  No other interpreters are listed on this page.  Oh, and a suggestion: you can use ~~~~ to sign your posts. Alan De Smet | Talk 02:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listing interpreters 

message: After looking at the article carefully, it occurred to me that (even though I am an IF fan myself) it fails to cite sources at some places and uses weasel words instead.
A fine example is the phrase "today, the games created by enthusiasts of the genre regularly surpass the quality of the original Infocom games".
Another example: "Infocom's games are now considered the classics of the genre, and the period in which it was active is thought of as the first golden age of interactive fiction."
Also, the "notable works" section is also affected.  A "citation needed" is not enough to cover for phrases like "the game has earned notable praise for the vivid depiction ..."
As an IF fan, I know the above is very well true.  But that does not mean that the article is immune to standard Wikipedia guidelines.
Therefore, I felt that marking the sections in questions with the weasel-tag is necessary. — Nikos 09:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've taken a stab at it, still quite a few unsourced claims left. I've cited a webpage by Alan De Smet, which I guess is pretty border-line, but I couldn't find any Wikipedia policy towards citing editors... Hrm. — Kwi | Talk 21:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Wikipedia's guideline: "find a specific person or group who holds that opinion and give a citation to a reputable publication in which they express that opinion." The #1 source that jumps to mind here is the DM4, which I think fulfills the requirements. Also, the IF community is small enough so we don't need to cite BBC, in my opinion ;) — Nikos 04:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weasel words 

message: As regards this:
Secondary Definition Sometimes Interactive Fiction is used to describe a method of writing whereby multiple authors contibute sections of varying sizes to a story begun by a single author, often times in an Internet forum or by submission forms on a website.
----
I've never heard of this definition before. Can anyone back it up, or provide a few sources? How widespread is this use of the term? Adam Conover 02:01, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
----
I haven't heard that definition used widely, but there is a LiveJournal community that seems to use the term in that way .  
However, in literary academia, "Interactive Fiction" is commonly used to refer to hypertext fiction and sometimes Choose Your Own Adventure stories.  Less commonly, it is used to refer to collaborative writing exercises in which the line between writers and readers is unclear.  
Oddly, Interactive Fiction in the sense addressed in this wikipedia entry is largely unknown or dismissed in literary academia.  Montfort's book Twisty Little Passages: An Approach to Interactive Fiction  is a at least partially an attempt to introduce the academic community to IF in the sense of "text adventures" and set up a framework for discussing it in terms of literary analysis.  It's also a very decent history of the craft.
For the hypertext fiction-centric meaning of the term, Montfort lists the following references (among many others):
Bolter, Jay (2001). Writing Space: Computers, Hypertext, and The Remediation of Print (2nd ed.).  Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Earlbaum Associates.
Howell, Gordon & Douglas, Jane Yellowlees (1990). The Evolution of Interactive Fiction. Computer Assisted Language Learning, pp. 93–109.  
Moulthrop, Stuart & Kaplan, Nancy (1991).  Something to Imagine: Literature, Composition, and Interactive Fiction. Computers and Composition 9(1), pp. 7–23. 
Naltrexone 08:22, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: You should use four tildes to sign your comments. The term "interactive fiction" was invented by Infocom to refer to the text-based games they produced. More than 25 years later, there is a great deal of tradition behind the use of this term. This is what people mean when they say "interactive fiction". You may want it to mean something broader, but it doesn't. Ntsimp 16:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

text: The article isn't all wrong; this is in fact one existing usage.  There are multiple published books and articles using the term in exactly this way.  This article summarizes what IF (by this one definition) is, how it came about, and where it is today.  It's a good article and the name is accurate.  There are other established meanings, but instead of expanding this article it would be appropriate to give them their own articles.  For example, some people use "interactive fiction" as a rough synonym for hypertext fiction, which indeed has an existing article.  In the event that two different fields need the same name, we'll rename the article to "Interactive fiction (video game medium)", put the new one somewhere similar ("Interactive fiction (hypertext)"), and turn this article into a disambiguation page.  A general article discussing any interactive creative work doesn't seem particularly useful.  It would need to stand on its own as an article, meaning it needs citations showing that the phrase is used in such a way, along with other facts like the history and development. — Alan De Smet | Talk 00:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

text: My December 2006 comment above applies to your comment as well.  Does it adequately address your concerns?  — Alan De Smet | Talk 05:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other definitions of "interactive fiction"