Talk:Mackinac College

message: it has atrocious English and little info. It's the first WP edit by the user. I'm thinking it might be some sort of spam thing. Any thoughts? --Howdybob 18:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is that link legit? 

message: If you would like to help in any way, you may send suggestions or inquiries via email to: admin@mackinaccollege.org
That was inserted into the main text by user 74.60.155.185. I moved it here. --Howdybob 01:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment moved from the main article- for further help 

message: Re-add material from User:Karin D. E. Everett. I looked through her sources User:TheRedPenOfDoom and they are very reliable and I am familiar with many of them. Please see talk page before removing to discuss your specific problems with the content. Nasa-verve (talk) 18:15, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: While you may be familiar with sites, you are apparently NOT familiar with Wikipedia's method of determining reliable sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: none of them meet the criteria for being included as an external link. the onus is on the person wishing to include to display a consensus for why they might merit an exception. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 08:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  These external links easily meet WP:ELYES:  - the minitakan design page and the youtube video both fit in that boat. I carried the burden to here, thoughts? Nasa-verve (talk) 14:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No they are not - they are just some guys blog promoting the long dead college. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 08:54, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Its not a blog. Did you even visit the site? I never claimed that it was the college's official site (which is what your edit summary seemed to be responding to.) But the site was set up by one of the original professors of the college with a great knowledge of its operation. I felt it was relevant to link to. Please relook at the minitakan design site and then respond with appropriate details. I repeat, that site is not a blog whatsoever, its a topic based site about Mackinac College. Nasa-verve (talk) 22:44, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: it is the equivalent of a blog - a random website set up buy someone who by your own description has a bias towards the subject but even without your descriptor has no one who has acknowledged his/her credibility - and as you also stated it is NOT official site by any means which is one of the few types of external links that are acceptable.  -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:17, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed content (April 2014)

message: but were not allowed to date.[7]
Those who went to the first version of Mackinac College referred to in this article were allowed to and DID indeed date.
The reference added to support this statement (7) is a 1972 artcile which refers only to the Rex Humbard college, NOT the one referred to in this wiki entry.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skydeas (talk • contribs) 18:31, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: we follow the sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:54, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please stop adding the "students were not allowed to date" line 

message: The current Mackinac College Wikipedia article is rated C-class: "missing important content or containing much irrelevant material…may still have significant problems or require substantial cleanup.”  WikiProject Readers Experience grading indicates it “would not provide a complete picture for even a moderately detailed study.”  This article is one of three stubs created when I contacted Jref at the end of January 2014:  a Mission Point (Mackinac Island) stub and a Mackinac College (Humbard) stub were extracted from the previous Mackinac College article.  In February 2014, I replaced the Mission Point (Mackinac Island) and Mackinac College (Humbard) stubs with complete articles. 
Subsequently, I carefully examined the existing Mackinac College stub (see table below) and found it is often wrong, misleading, and badly referenced.  It is too short to provide encyclopedic coverage and entirely lacks specific information that would contribute to the Michigan WikiProject.  It neglects to mention ways in which the college was notable within and outside Michigan.  It has only one photo. 
Working with many others, I now offer up a detailed, well referenced, and illustrated history of Mackinac College.  Please find our new, proposed article on the following Talk page. 
This table is comprised of Mackinac College stub’s evaluations.  Sack and Martin References are below the table.  MC = Mackinac College; HQ = headquarters.
Sentences in the Current MC Wikipedia stub                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    	Evaluations and Corrections
Introduction:  This article is about the college created by founders of the Moral Re-Armament.  For bible college on the same site founded by Rex Humbard, see Mackinac College (Humbard).                                                                                                                                                                                    	Frank Buchman was the founder of Moral Re-Armament (MRA) in May 1938.  Buchman died in 1961 and did not found Mackinac College.  Moral Re-Armament sold the property to Mackinac College and three people founded the College in 1965:  Peter Howard, Basil Entwistle, and Dr. Morris Martin.  They were members of MRA but did not found MRA.  Peter Howard died Feb. 25, 1965.
Mackinac College was a private liberal arts college which opened on Mackinac Island, Michigan, in the fall of 1966 and closed four years later in 1970.[2]                                                                                                                                                                                                                    	Ref 2A (Sack) is the wrong Reference and incomplete.   (1) The dates are not in the Ref.  (2) Sack and the wiki author fail to say that MC was independent, non-sectarian, co-educational.
In 1964, journalist Peter Howard of the Moral Re-Armament (MRA) movement, proposed the idea of turning the MRA camp at Mackinac Island, which stood unused for a large portion of the year, into a college campus.[2]                                                                                                                                                         	--Ref 2B (Sack):  The wiki author has misquoted Sack, who mentions neither a ‘camp’ nor a ‘college campus’ (p. 183).   Howard’s idea was an international educational institution with brick-and-mortar locations in Caux, Switzerland and Mackinac Island, MI (M. Martin, p. 203). 
--The wiki author refers to the buildings at Mission Point as a ‘camp.’  There is no recorded use of this term by any resident, conference attendee, or member of the MC community.
His proposal was to use a school "to train youth to take on the key places in nations, to get the right young men instead of the wrong ones into places of influence in public affairs."[2]                                                                                                                                                                                   	Ref 2C (Sack) and false statement of MC philosophy:  this proposal was Howard’s MRA idea (personally reported to Martin, p. 203), and Sack implies (p. 183) that it was MC philosophy.  It was not.  Sack and the MC wiki author ignore the fact that Martin rejected this idea:  "With Peter Howard’s death the college project took on a different aspect.  The Michigan Board of Education was supportive of MC and granted a charter ONLY when they satisfied themselves that the college would not be an instrument of indoctrination but a genuine hall of learning.” (pp. 203-4)  “It had long been obvious that Peter Howard’s idea of a college to spread the ideas of MRA in public life and administration was unworkable.” (p. 206)  “MC was not an MRA college.” (p. 210)
The school was granted a charter in 1965.[2]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  	Ref 2D (Sack):  Sack mentions neither a ‘charter’ nor this date.  This is the wrong Ref to support a correct fact.
Optical physicist S. Douglas Cornell resigned from his position as Executive Officer of the National Academy of Sciences to become the school's president.[3][4]                                                                                                                                                                                                              	Correct facts.  Both Refs 3 and 4 are poor but OK.  Primary references from National Academy of Sciences would be better.  Ref 3 is Susan Cornell’s engagement announcement: “her father (Dr. Cornell) had been, since 1952, executive officer of NAS.  He recently resigned to accept the presidency of Mackinac College in Michigan.”  Ref 4 is Dr. Cornell’s 2010 obituary.
The MRA deeded its headquarters on the island and the Old Mission House, to Mackinac College.[5]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              	Ref 5 is wrong in three ways and should not be used:  Ref 5 says the Mackinac Island “Mission House housed the HQ of MRA, and when MRA relocated to Switzerland it deeded its MI property to MC.”  (1) “Deeded its HQ” is only partially accurate:  it was half a gift and half sold on mortgage (MC Status Study, Apr. 1968, pp. 13-14).  (2) Beginning in 1946 MRA was headquartered in Caux, Switzerland, so MRA was already ‘located’ in Switzerland long before MC was created.  (3) Mission House was an MRA residence, not an HQ (https://web.archive.org/web/20070927013242/http://www.mcgi.state.mi.us/hso/sites/9195.htm).
The first class was admitted in 1966 and consisted of 113 students.[6]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        	Ref 6:  wrong number of students.  The number of students in the first class was 114; new article has “114” cited by 4 references (including by MC President Cornell).
During its operations, Mackinac College had a liberal arts focus (unlike the MRA's College of the Good Road which focused on teaching ideology of the MRA), and joined in with the "radical critique of traditional higher education" which was happening in the 1960s, although the MRA was generally strongly opposed to most of the ideals of the 1960s counter culture.[2]	--Ref 2 (Sack, p. 184) and this statement are wrong; Sack provides no published support for his similar comment.  Martin is the authoritative source:  “As dean I had to face much that was unknown and new to me…I accepted a simple truth.  These students were coming to us because we claimed to give them the best education possible.” (p. 209)
--Sack also incorrectly says that MC “attempted to plant MRA ideas” like the MRA College of the Good Road (p. 183).
Students participated in the creation of the curriculum.[7]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   	Ref 7 is True.
The school closed in 1970, four years after opening.[8]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       	Correct, but poor Reference.  This Ref is about MRA and UWP.  It has 109 sentences, and only 3 are about Mackinac College.
The American School Board Journal cited the reasons for the closure as being "familiar": the high costs of setting up the campus and programs, a smaller enrollment than planned and a lack of alumni to fund endowments.[7]                                                                                                                                                  	Ref 7:  poor.  “Familiar Closure” should be much more specific.  MC closure had nothing to do with a small enrollment and, before 4 years, there were of course no alumni. Here is ASBJ’s actual text: “Asking price for the $13 million facility on 32 lakefront acres:  $7.5 million, with a down payment of $2 million and liberal terms.  Cause of the death of Mackinac--hailed as one of the most liberal of US colleges, where students actively participated in formulated curriculum--was familiar:  Heavy expenses of a building program, a smaller enrollment than proved practicable, and lack of a supportive alumni group for the new institution.”
After closing, the campus was sold to Rex Humbard who reopened it in 1972 as a bible college under the same name.[9] The campus was later turned into a hotel, Mission Point Resort.[10]                                                                                                                                                                                      	Refs 9 and 10 are True.  But this information has since developed its own wiki sites (MC-Humbard) and (Mission Point Resort).  Ref 9 is only about Humbard, not about MC.  Ref 10 (Phil Porter’s book) is no longer available online; it is available in Amazon.
Daniel Sack’s book about MRA history is cited 5 times in this wiki.  His thesis was that Mackinac College was an MRA college.  Sack’s ideas about Mackinac College were principally derived from MRA newsletters, Morris Martin’s book, and four phone interviews in 2008 with students.  
Martin, Morris.  2001. “Chapter XVIII, Back to School”  Always a Little Further.  Tucson, AZ:  Elm Street Press. pp. 203-215.
Sack, Daniel.  2009.  “Moral Re-Armament. The Reinventions of an American Religious Movement.”  New York:  Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 183–186.
Karin D. E. Everett (talk) 20:28, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Much of the text and references in this 4-yr-old stub are partially or completely wrong 

message: Karin D. E. Everett (talk) 20:35, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: I am a retired molecular microbiologist with no conflict of interest in this work (see my UserPage).  I am responding here because Theroadislong has not replied to my effort to contact him.  I am neither personally nor professionally connected with the subject of Mackinac College.  The poor quality of the Mackinac College Wikipedia page came to my attention in 2013, and I decided to (slowly) write a well-researched history of Mackinac College for Wikipedia.  In 2014 I provided some input to this page that is still in the current article.  I also wrote and in February 2014 posted two related Wikipedia pages:  Mission Point (Mackinac Island) and Mackinac College (Humbard).  I am a graduate of Mackinac College (1970), Michigan State University, Columbia University, Baylor College of Medicine, and the University of Tennessee Memphis.  For my complete Mackinac College history efforts, see Mackinac College Talk #5:  “Much of the text and references in this 4-yr-old stub are partially or completely wrong”.  Then see Mackinac College Talk #6 - #19 “New Mackinac College article, with 58 references” for my new complete History of Mackinac College.Karin D. E. Everett (talk) 04:10, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. I haven't had a chance to try and get a hold of these sources, but I don't think that having attended a college several decades ago represents a strong enough conflict of interest that it requires you to request edits be made on your behalf. I'd just go ahead and put that in the article, if I were you -- it's all referenced, to what appear to me to be decently credible sources. If somebody has an actual argument as to why these sources are bad or being misrepresented, they can explain it here on the talk page. jp×g 08:49, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

text: PS. It might be worth pinging , who has quite an extensive roster of articles about Michigan history, and a good ability to track down / evaluate sources. jp×g 08:54, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request edit on 25 June 2018 

message: There have been some errors in the latest edit of this article. The school's mascot was never an eagle; it was a turtle. The team was never named the Patriots either. And the school's colors were blue and green. The college logo, which seems to have been removed, clearly showed those colors.  Not sure why these changes were made, but having researched this place extensively, and having many of the references and documents from the college, I can definitively say the items mentioned above are now not longer correct on the page. 
It seem that the references for the mascot, et al. came from a brief newspaper article from 1973, which was referring to the bible college that came later (and was active in that year), not to the first and original Mackinac College. Could these errors please be fixed?
* As the main author to the article, I can ONLY go by references for the article. I use reliable websites and books -> none show any of this information above. I also use historical newspapers. The college was well covered in newspapers and my search at Newspapers.Com shows 2,595 articles. None of those articles talk of the mascot being a turtle or talks of the college's colors being blue and green.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remarks by User:Skydeas

message: Doug, you are missing the point in my comments, which refers to the date of your reference newspaper article about the school mascot and colors. The date is 1973, which is 3 years AFTER the first Mackinac College closed. The second college, The Rex Humbard one, was the school that made the announcement in that newspaper post. Maybe you could add to that wiki article, as that is where that reference should be attached. It should be removed in this wiki article, as it is from a date this college no longer existed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skydeas (talk • contribs) 20:56, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  School mascot and colors 

message: This article is part of Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20210315 and the Good article (GA) drive to reassess and potentially delist over 200 GAs that might contain copyright and other problems.  An AN discussion closed with consensus to delist this group of articles en masse, unless a reviewer opens an independent review and can vouch for/verify content of all sources. Please review Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/February 2023 for further information about the GA status of this article, the timeline and process for delisting, and suggestions for improvements.  Questions or comments can be made at the project talk page.  MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:36, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright contributor investigation and Good article reassessment