Talk:Fresno, California/Archive 1

message: Apparently someone at "fresnorealtor.com" believes that Wikipedia exists to provide them with free advertising. Whoever it is, I hope they stop disrupting by posting their fresnorealtor.com junk spam.   -Willmcw 08:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  fresnorealtor.com 

message: It's pretty sad how people define their home town by what chain outlets exist at what malls (damn we're alomst as good as any other town now), but that's a facet of Fresno mentality alright! --CodeGeneratR 00:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've noticed that too. But hey, residents can take pride in the fact that there may be no other city in the world whose chain store outlets are as well catalogued as those of Fresno. -Willmcw 02:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The listing of shopping malls is, in my opinion, pathetic. It communicates nothing encyclopedic, and tells a reader that Fresno has so little to offer that residents brag about the availability of Old Navy jeans in town. I think the entire section should be removed.Uucp 18:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  outlets and shopping malls 

message: The tone now is wrong for an encyclopedia. Large blocks of marketing text copied verbatim from organization websites, etc. The length of this section should probably be cut by 2/3. Uucp 15:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'local attractions' needs a major edit 

message: Should he really be listed under notable Fresno residents?
Born in Kansas, reared in the Northwest.Lived on the California coast for most of his adult life.Came to Fresno shortly before crimes.Now resides in San Quentin.
California12 11:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wesson

message: LOOked like a lot of good stuff was removed by anon with no prior contribs.Mikereichold 22:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  revert 44 68.127.93.17  

message: *Dsol 19:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: For inclusion

message: The Sailor article referred to does mention that Brecher is from Fresno, and then contradicts itself by questioning whether Brecher is real and from Fresno.  The answer given in Sailor's e-mail interview is revealing "Brecher" DOES not respond that he is real, he does not respond that he's from Fresno.  He does respond that he typifies millions of Americans, i.e. he is a stereotype.  Clearly the most direct reading of the answer is that he is not real and not from Fresno.
"Q. Who are you? Are you really a fat guy in Fresno who works in data entry and lives in a duplex and can't stand the heat, or is that a literary character you made up? 
A. I'm the normal one here. I'm a typical American and you won't see it. Here, do this, get a list of all the men in your company who don't get to go to cool places and write stories and pick 10 or so of them just at random and you will see they're all like me, exactly like me. 
The only difference is I met this Mark Ames guy (the editor of The exile) and he thought it would be a funny idea to give me this column. So I can talk and people read it, but there are maybe 50 million guys like me out there, just like me, and you won't see it. 
All of us are fat, everybody who isn't "a somebody" in America is fat, but you never let any of them on TV or The New York Times so it's like we don't exist. 
This is the dumbest question because it's just like that stupid Kristof quote, it just PROVES YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU, which is millions of guys like me waiting for the heart attack."
It might also be important to note that Sailor's story is not a news story in any way but a type of commentary.  In fact it is possible (but not likely) that Sailor himself writes the "Brecher" stuff.  They certainly share the same political and racial biases.  From Sailor's Wikipedia article
"Steve Sailer (born December 4, 1958) is a reporter, movie critic for The American Conservative, VDARE.com columnist, and founder of the Human Biodiversity Institute (1999).
Sailer writes about IQ, genetics, race, gender, politics (including immigration), and sports. 
... Sailer frequently calls for a more open and fact-based debate regarding intelligence, genetics, race, and gender.[2] Critics often criticize his dealing with race and intelligence."
82.141.187.170 18:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is all totally irrelevant to the version being discussed above.  The UPI interview doesn't show anything conclusively, that's why I proposed the version above.  If you read the italics below the interview on the UPI website, however, you can see that Sailer himself does believe that Brecher is who he says he is.  BTW it's not necessary to copy paste large blocks of text onto talk page when you can just link.  As for your OR speculation about "political and racial biases," well, as many have said here already, that belongs on talk:Gary Brecher if anywhere. Dsol 18:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: User:82.141.187.170, if you read Dsol's suggested version, it doesn't say that he is from Fresno, it says he claims to be from it.--Urthogie 19:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: You say "1.  Where would it possibly go in the article?  There is no section "Fictional characters claiming to be from Fresno," nor should there be!  It all comes down to the issue of importance.  Why is this claim at all important to an article about Fresno?" If it has not been verified where a notable person is from, then they cannot be called fictional.  Do you have any other concerns, anon, before we put this into the article?--Urthogie 19:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

text: First of all note that many place articles can and do include finctional characters, but as Urthogie correctly notes Breecher has not been shown to be fictional.  We have had consensus for some time now.  The lone objections of this anon ip do not even make sense, and when people are unconvinced by its specious arguments it puts forth it resorts to a bizarre POV harangue about "making a stand" against a dark conspiracy of editors who do not share its laughable POV.  I am reverting now, as there is a clear consensus and the anon ip is no longer adressing the proposal in any coherent way. Dsol 14:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sailor shows Brecher NOT a Fresnan 

message: Deleted City coucilwoman.Owning a funeral home does not make one a business leader.Seems it would only make sense if entire city council were listed as notable.Entire council is already listed above, so special mention of one member seems pointless.California12 21:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cynthia Sterling

message: I'm almost hesitant to do this because I'm afraid it will be viewed as bias.But this is not a business directory.The Red Lantern is not the only bar in Fresno,it's not the only gay bar either.At first I thought perhaps it was placed here by a patron who really liked their favorite hangout.Then I noticed a name I did not recognize under notable residents Mr. Wigley.After doing a quick search I found he owns the bar.Wikipedia is not the proper place to promote a business.I have honestly never seen an encyclopedia that listed bars under city entrys.I'm really tempted to remove all the store and restaurant names from the shopping areas too.
: I agree. All the shopping nonsense should be removed. Could you imagine what an article for San Francisco or Chicago would look like if it included every bar or clothing store? Uucp 16:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes to the Red Lantern comment. Store and restaurant names have no place here, unless they are of cultural significance. Harrods in London has cultural significance. Chain outlets in Fresno do not. This entire article needs to be purged of promotional-commercial tone. The neighborhoods sections also read as promotional copy, unsuitable for an encyclopedia entry. They should be boiled down to one section or moved to a separate, subordinate article with a link from here. Another option would be to cut them entirely. This should be an informative entry about the city, but not a Chamber of Commerce tour. What say?Dphen 15:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems odd that we go into so much detail about the shopping centers of Freno. Several even have articles, in which case they should simply be listed here. -Will Beback 22:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It doesn't matter.  There are sites out there that are intended for collecting that kind of information.  Wikipedia isn't one of them. Sxeptomaniac 16:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Red Lantern Bar and Bar Owner

message: Is a separate in corporated city.With it's own city government.Why is it here? The non-existent crime is not exactly true they do have crime, maybe not as much as Fresno but it is there.California12 23:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clovis

message: That the issue of self-reference and sources is being adressed at the talk page of Wikipedia:Reliable sources.  Things may not move quickly sometimes, but there is movement none the less. - brenneman{T}{L}  05:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just a note 

message: I removed all the discussion of shopping malls, and much of the detail about Fresno neighborhoods. Too much of it read like the ravings of a semiliterate real estate agent. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, let's maintain this article as appropriate for one. Uucp 18:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I did some further editing of the neighborhoods section.  I agree that this doesn't need to be some real estate agent's list of Fresno's selling points.  I tried to make it flow a bit better and took care of a few remaining errors.  I am thinking that it might be worth removing all but the sections on Sunnyside, Downtown, the Tower District, Fig Garden, and possibly Woodward Park.  Those have some historical significance, but I don't see any particular reason to single out the other neighborhoods.  Thoughts?  Sxeptomaniac 00:27, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to both editors for using the red pencil and really editing. The article needed it. Cheers, -Will Beback 00:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Cleanup, March 2006 

message: This needs slight revision.
1. It gives the impression that the war ended the ethnic neighborhoods, when in truth it was time and progress that caused their decline.As people learned to speak English they assimilated and moved out into the general population.This is a pattern that was repeated across the U.S.Did it really have anything to do with the war?
2."Fresno rounded up the Japanese"
It should be clarified that this wasn't just a Fresno specific operation.It was the Feds who were "rounding up" (can we get rid of that phrase?)and Fresno was just a part of a much larger operation.
3:Germans and Italians
Can anyone find a source for this, that says it happened in Fresno? If so did the City of Fresno and School District really order it? Or turn a blind eye?
Or did some people in the city just do it around town and in the schools and it wasn't official?
If it can be sourced it belongs here, but if not it really should go.I can find numerous links about the Japanese Internment Operation in Fresno, but nothing about Germans and Italians.California12 18:57, 17 March 2006 
(UTC)
Ok I removed the German and Italian portion until someone can source it.
California12 19:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: World War II

message: Needs a rewrite
As is It's a constant target for racist vandalism and ridiculous remarks.This is because of the way it's written.The writer mentions only the African American population and crime.It's borderline as it is.The "NOTED" remark is a bit much.
California12 18:10, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any reason why West Fresno needs to be included at all.  It's not a truly distinct neighborhood like the others, and doesn't have any real historical or cultural significance.  I just took the liberty of removing it altogether. Sxeptomaniac 19:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: West Fresno

message: I added a couple of lines on Operation Rezone to the history section, but I've been having trouble finding much detail on it.  Hopefully someone can help flesh that out a bit. Sxeptomaniac 21:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operation Rezone 

message: Can't seem to find this, but I was thinking that she was?California12 19:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Isn't opera singer Ann Whitehurst from Fresno?

message: Normally I would not consider local news people to be under notable (no offense meant) but since this one has an imdb profile. Would he qualify ?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0815462/
California12 19:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember hearing before that he'd done a number of bit parts in movies over the years, so maybe he should be added. Sxeptomaniac 20:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kopi

message: Regular event now ?
Whatever the case it's not funny.
California12 19:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, people in Fresno often generalize about certain sections of town, particularly the West.  I think it's connected to the concentrated pockets of poverty referred to in the 2005 article.  I believe our vandals actually think they are providing helpful information by spreading their prejudice. Sxeptomaniac 20:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Racial Vandalism

message: Origins and history section says Fresno was named after Fresno County, which in turn was named after Fresno Creek. But where is Fresno Creek? Did it flow into the San Joaquin where Millerton Lake is now? Or is Fresno Creek the same as the Fresno River (seasonally dry)? UC Libraries website Counting California  suggests Fresno Creek and Fresno Riveer names were interchangeable. Can anyone recommend another authoritative source? Thanks. Dphen 15:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For a brief time, I worked for the USBR at Friant Dam. I recall visiting a very small and completely dry creek bed on the Madera side of the SJR that I believe was called Fresno Creek. This was a few years ago, so I may be confused. -Anþony 10:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fresno Creek

message: This article says that CA Hwy 99 may eventually become Interstate 9; however, the Bakersfield article speculates that it will become Interstate 7. Who's right? cluth 01:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the key here is "speculates", neither is right quite yet, until the speculation changes to reality.  Both are possible, nothing is official. 
Google gives 84 hits for fresno "interstate 7" -wikipedia and 145 for fresno "interstate 9" -wikipedia .
dml 02:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  CA-99 and Interstate 7/9? 

message: ===Please alphabetize===
I removed two entries that had been tacked onto the end of alphabetized list of notables. Neither (see below) linked to anything, and neither contained info explaining why name belonged. Hooray for the US Navy and all, but there isn't justification for including all active duty personnel and veterans in this list. If there are citations available to justify inclusion, please list them. "Worthy of mention" means nothing.  Also, if these names are added back to notables, please insert them into list in alphabetical order, based on last name. Thanks.
*Vadim Alekseyev - Worthy of mention
*Tyson Anderson-US NAVY
Daphodyl 18:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch.  This isn't the first time we've had "notables" that just aren't.  I've deleted a number of them myself.  Personally, I wouldn't mind just getting rid of the list altogether (most lists on Wikipedia seem to be a target for POV wars and vandalism), but I'm sure there are those that lean towards keeping it, and I don't have the time to make it a cause.  I'd prefer to just categorize the articles as people from Fresno and link to the category at the bottom of the page. Sxeptomaniac 20:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

text: "...and Konrad Miller, Buchanan High School students, addressed the Board as to why the District should change Woodshop from an elective class to a Fine Arts requirement." --Hjal 18:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of notable residents of Fresno 

message: I removed two entries that had been tacked onto the end of alphabetized list of notables. Neither (see below) linked to anything, and neither contained info explaining why name belonged. Hooray for the US Navy and all, but there isn't justification for including all active duty personnel and veterans in this list. If there are citations available to justify inclusion, please list them. "Worthy of mention" means nothing.  Also, if these names are added back to notables, please insert them into list in alphabetical order, based on last name. Thanks.
*Vadim Alekseyev - Worthy of mention
*Tyson Anderson-US NAVY
Daphodyl 18:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch.  This isn't the first time we've had "notables" that just aren't.  I've deleted a number of them myself.  Personally, I wouldn't mind just getting rid of the list altogether (most lists on Wikipedia seem to be a target for POV wars and vandalism), but I'm sure there are those that lean towards keeping it, and I don't have the time to make it a cause.  I'd prefer to just categorize the articles as people from Fresno and link to the category at the bottom of the page. Sxeptomaniac 20:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please alphabetize

message: I just undid the entry "Konrad Miller Professional ballroom dancer" after finding no Google hits for that name associated with Fresno except this one, from CLOVIS UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT Student Voice Workshop, May 24, 2006, which I found amusing, but still not notable enough:
:"...and Konrad Miller, Buchanan High School students, addressed the Board as to why the District should change Woodshop from an elective class to a Fine Arts requirement." --Hjal 18:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Konrad Miller 

message: Just thought I would point out that under climate it states that fresno has realatively cold winters.  That is a point of opinion over fact isn't it? Is it realatively cold compared to new york, texas, florida?  I think someone on alaska would laugh at that!  Also, it gives the avg low for winter compared to the avg high in summer. Isn't that missleading?  I mean really, an avg high in summer is something between 50 and 65, really not all that cold.  I suggest that the opinion be removed and either both high and lows for both be shown, or just show the highs etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by MWJamesLDS (talk • contribs) 
:I'd seen that change a little while back and had forgotten to go back and fix it.  It was originally "mild" and I just changed it back.  Thanks for catching it. Sxeptomaniac 21:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Climate

message: If Tehachapi has a popular culture section, why not Fresno? (Come on, be brave!)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.64.178 (talk) 22:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not terribly fond of "in popular culture" sections.  They just tend to be junk piles of every obscure reference ever made, and not remotely useful.  I don't generally remove them, but I don't create or add to them, because they're just a waste of time. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 00:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Popular Culture