Talk:Bösendorfer

message: I commend User:Redlark's eagerness to contribute helpfully and adaptably to the Bösendorfer Article, but I think that his addition might not be relevant enough to add to this—right now very short—article. The fact that a specific architect constucted a special edition Imperial grand does not seem significant to be mentioned here, especially if one considers how short the section on the regular 290 Imperial Grand (one of the most significant piano series in the world) already is. Maybe this bit of information would better be placed in the Hans Hollein article, because it seem to concern him more than it concern Bösendorfer pianos in general. — Mütze 19:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see anything about where the 2nd Hans Holleins model is located. I know one of them is in Florida (The hotel even advertises it.), but I can't find anything about the one in China. Starcity ai 07:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hollein Böses 

message: Am I right in saying that Bosendorfer does not produce digital / self-playing pianos?
Digital piano
Player piano
--LeedsKing 11:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that was quite a hassle. — Mütze 13:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Digital / player pianos 

message: Was Steely Dan really a Bösendorfer artist? SupaStarGirl 23:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, according to the liner notes of the CD remaster/re-release of Katy Lied
"O, the things we've seen and heard! - an Arp synthesizer burning in the courtyard of a West Hollywood sound stage - the thunder of a DeTomaso Pantera parked beneath the echo chambers of Studio C - the mighty room-service bill from the Beverly Wilshire hotel, reflecting the cost of the joyful reunion of Mr. Phil Woods and 200 of his closest L.A. studio/jazz-musician pallies - the world's first and last DBX noise reduction unit with factory installed wings, and a Bosendorfer piano that actually got louder after being struck - all things considered, the Katy Lied experience poses, we think, nothing so much as the musical analog of Richard Burton's famous query, in the sword and sandal epic "The Robe" - "were you...out there?" Yes, we were."
I've also read other articles and interviews that mention their use of a bösendorfer.  If this quote doesn't qualify as a citation, let me know.  --Insomniak 05:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Steely Dan

message: It would be great to read something about the distinctive sound of a Bosendorfer compared to other famous grand piano marques such as Steinway and Bechstein. I appreciate that it would be difficult to actually put the difference in to words but I would love to read it!
195.194.167.31 12:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very interesting. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 22:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well Steve, I think the reason that showrooms around the world are avoiding putting their Post-WWII Steinways next to most any other piano is because they are generally inferior and not worth the inflated prices Steinway USA is insisting on charging.  Many independent technicians, Larry Fine in his book included, agree now that American-made Steinways are generally inferior in both construction and tone quality to 1st-tier instruments such as Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Bluthner, Fazioloi, Shigeru Kawaii, etc.  I for one, certainly think they don't sound nearly as good nor do they even have the same projection as the best Yamahas, which BTW are not at all my favorite instrument. Laguna greg (talk) 03:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

text: I'd like to remove the sound description from the first paragraph of this article, "Bösendorfer pianos are noted for their dark, full-bodied sound compared with other top models." Sound perception is such a subjective subject and I dread going there... But I don't believe "dark" or "full-bodied" are accurate assessments of most Bosendorfer pianos. It's dangerous to put a label to a stereotypical sound for any piano model because there are so many factors involved with each piano such as environment, tuning and voicing. Just my .02. NorCal Bosie (talk) 00:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur. It may be appropriate to note this elsewhere in the article, especially if we can cite a reference, but it definitely doesn't belong in the lead paragraph. (Your proposal probably should have its own section on this talk page, but I'm feeling lazy.) Rivertorch (talk) 07:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree as well.  Feel free to remove anything that is not sourced.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 22:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: That would be great for the article but must bear in mind the basic policies of no Original Research (can't be in your own words), Verifiability, Reliable sources.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 22:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Mmm. I think that might be difficult. I recognize and have respect for these policies. However, I believe the utility of the articles to readers is the ultimate standard by which any edit or addition should be judged. In other words, the dogma is ok, but pragmatism should win in a fight with dogmatism. With some work, hopefully there won't be a fight, but it will take longer to find credible references describing the sound quality. In the mean time, the question is ... would the article be more useful with less content? Danfreedman (talk) 06:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sound and other comparisons

message: Several people, including Giorgio and Ferdinand Alexander Porsche have designed pianos for Bösendorfer.
Does this Giorgio person have a surname?  If he's a famous enough designer, his wikilink should lead to an article, but it doesn't. Lontano 01:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Giorgio

message: Rather than referring you to a book, how about I describe a couple of simple experiments you can try yourself on any piano (ie: doesn't need to be a Bosendorfer or have extra keys):
First, to convince yourself that lower strings can resonate sympathetically when higher strings are sounded:
1) Gently push and hold down C below middle C all the way, but not hard enough to cause the hammer to hit the string. Keep this key pushed (don't release it). At this point, with this key held down, the piano is making no noise whatsoever.
2) Without releasing the key from step 1, strike and release the middle C key. Although you don't need to do this very loud, the louder you strike middle C, the more easily you will hear what comes next. Note, when I say "strike", I mean that you should cause the key's hammer to hit the middle C strings so that you hear the middle C note.
3) At this point, you are still holding down C below middle C, but you have released middle C. However, you will not only still hear the sound of the middle C note, but you should also be able to hear the sound of C below middle C. This sound is not coming from the middle C strings (which you can dampen with your hands if you wish to be sure). The sound is coming from the previously-silent C below middle C strings, which are resonating sympathetically.
Second, to convince yourself that the presence of low notes creates more sympathetic resonances right up the harmonic series, try the following. Once again, any piano will do:
A) Play an interval whose fundamental is present in the low end of the piano. For example, play the C above the lowest C on the piano, and at the same time play the G above that. For this interval, the lowest C on the piano is the fundamental. On any reasonable piano, this interval will sound fairly clean or crisp. Note that you are not playing the lowest C, or even holding it down. You're just playing the two notes of the interval. Now move down by a semitone and try again. Again, it should sound fine. Eventually, you'll work your way down to A and E. This should sound fine too. Now go down to A-flat and E-flat. You'll find that this sounds much less crisp. Note that this can be a bit tough to hear on a poor piano, since the low end is often very muffled anyway. But try it on a decent piano and it will be immediately obvious. Even on the Bosendorder, playing an interval where the fundamental is so low that it's off the keyboard results in a noticable muffling of the interval. Admittedly, it's so bloody low that it's harder to hear, but it's there.
I'm sorry I can't point you at an academic article for this, but I can tell you I first learned about it in college where I studied piano, and have found it useful information to have when composing for an ensemble. I'd appreciate it if you'd give it a try before deleting the information. I did come across a Wikipedia article on Sympathetic string which you may find interesting. 
Danfreedman 09:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on those low strings 

message: Hi Bob
Sorry if it sounded like I was saying the piano "knew" which fundamental you wanted to hear. It was not my intention to imply that. You are correct when you say that the piano will resonate at all of the fundamentals for the interval or chords being played. You ask why A and E sound good. The reason is that the fundamental for that A and E is still present on the piano (ie: the lowest note on a normal piano is A). Going below that (for example to A-flat and E-flat) takes you into territory where the fundamental note is no longer present -- except in those few pianos (including for example the Bosendorfer Imperial Grand) where additional strings are present, and therefore able to resonate). Even on the Bosie, eventually you run out of strings, and mud results.
You also ask about G7 and Db7 if you just play F, B, and E. In fact, these two chords are often substituted for one another in jazz because they sound so similar. So, a chord progression of Dm-G7-C is often played Dm-Db7-C in jazz. If the tonic is omitted (for exmaple if you play these notes: E/C/A/F for Dm, E/B/Ab/F for Db7, D/B/G/E for C) you get a nice progression. If you happen to be holding the damper pedal down while playing these harmonies (but release the pedal between each chord), you can do a similar experiment to the one in my previous posting: having played the chord, silently press one of the fundamental notes for _any_ of the intervals being played (doesn't matter which one - they'll all sound since you're right in saying the piano doesn't "know" which one to sound). Then while holding the silently-played fundamental, release the damper pedal. You'll hear that the fundamental note is still ringing. If you do this with other (non-fundamental) notes, you'll hear that they do not ring (unless they are notes elsewhere in the harmonic series of the intervals being played).
Truly, it helps to sit at a piano and try it.
Note that this is a completely separate effect from the case where the brain fills in a missing fundamental. In what I'm talking about, the strings actually do resonate.
Danfreedman 17:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on missing fundamentals 

message: At the moment we claim that Liszt said only Bechstein and Bosendorfer could withstand his vigorous playing. Unfortunately the written records seems to contradict this: Liszt wrote to Steinway to tell them that he was rewriting two of his works to accommodate their new piano, and wrote again to say "Your new grand is a glorious masterpiece in power, sonority, singing quality, and perfect harmonic effect". (Source Susan Goldenberg, "Steinway & Sons: From Glory to Controversy", p. 31 -- a far from positive book about Steinway). Liszt was also enormously fond of other pianos, like the Chickering. I think we either need to find a quotation from Liszt to confirm the present entry, or consider deleting the passage altogether. Alexrexpvt 00:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed, until reference can be added:  One of the earliest and most important artists to be associated with Bösendorfer was Franz Liszt, who found that their pianos and those of the Bechstein company were the only instruments capable of withstanding his tremendously powerful playing.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 09:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Found ref - added back in. Appreciate your input.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liszt, Bechstein, and Bosendorfer 

message: Bösendorfer means "Evil Village" in German. Which is interesting, and where the word "village" stems from is even more interesting.71.37.21.160 21:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Umm... what?!? "Bösendorfer" means "someone or something from Bösendorf". "Bösendorf" would either mean "evil village" or "village of evil or angry people". Most likely it's an old placename, but I couldn't find any mention in modern maps. As for "village" being "interesting"? Huh? Lots of places in the German speaking world have "dorf" in the name. -- 92.104.215.72 (talk) 15:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The name's interesting 

message: Classical music typically does not omit the tonic note (at least not for very long), and so derives a smaller advantage, if any, from these extra strings. Removed:  As a result of this acoustic behavior, many jazz pianists such as Oscar Peterson and artists in the pop genre such as Tori Amos have chosen the Bösendorfer for this reason, while it has not distinguished itself nearly as much in the classical world. "Full Transcript Keyboard Magazine, December 2003 Interview with Tori Amos. 'I do remember one of the first things I bought with my money was a Bosendorfer. I rented it in 1994, on Under the Pink and I just fell in love with it. It can handle temperature changes really well. I guess I'm a Bosendorfer fan because I played them when I was at the Peabody Conservatory'", The Dent, 2007. Accessed December 14 2007.
Oscar Peterson's article does not mention the Bosendorfer, and while the reference provided for Tori Amos does substantiate that she uses the Bosendorfer, it does not support the claim that she chose this piano "as a result of this acoustic behavior".  The artists listed known to have used the Bosendorfer mention this piano and link to this article.  Therefore, Amos was added but Peterson was not.  If a reference can be provided for Peterson, please add him back in.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 08:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Music written to include rich harmonic colorations, such as bebop, is often written in such a way that the player plays the upper parts of a musical chord's harmonic series (3rds, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths, for example) without playing the tonic note of that chord. In these cases, it is up to the listener's ear to "replace" the missing tonic, revealing the chord's basis. However, the Bösendorfer's additional strings generate - albeit at low volume - the tonic by vibrating sympathetically with the played notes, contributing further to the fullness of the sound.
That is incorrect as far as I understand it . If you have a 20 hz string and you play 80 hz and 100 hz, it will stimulate the 80 and 100 hz harmonics of the 20 hz string, but nothing will vibrate at 20 hz. (Unless there was some sort of nonlinear mechanism perhaps?) If the extra strings are just sitting there, you should get extra resonance with some of the notes you play, but no new frequencies.
I'd be suprised if a piano was even capable of radiating sound at the fundamentals of the low strings anyway. --Howdybob (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unverified claims

message: Quoting from the article:
:Music written to include rich harmonic colorations, such as bebop, is often written in such a way that the player plays the upper parts of a musical chord's harmonic series (3rds, 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths, for example) without playing the tonic note of that chord. In these cases, it is up to the listener's ear to "replace" the missing tonic, revealing the chord's basis. However, the Bösendorfer's additional strings generate - albeit at low volume - the tonic by vibrating sympathetically with the played notes, contributing further to the fullness of the sound.
That is incorrect as far as I understand it . If you have a 20 hz string and you play 80 hz and 100 hz, it will stimulate the 80 and 100 hz harmonics of the 20 hz string, but nothing will vibrate at 20 hz. (Unless there was some sort of nonlinear mechanism perhaps?) If the extra strings are just sitting there, you should get extra resonance with some of the notes you play, but no new frequencies.
I'd be suprised if a piano was even capable of radiating sound at the fundamentals of the low strings anyway. --Howdybob (talk) 16:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other concerns

message: Hi Howdybob
About the resonance thing (where playing a note causes the string an octive down to radiate at its own fundamental frequency). This does indeed happen, and I would encourage you to sit down at a (non-electric) piano (doesn't need to be a Bosendorfer) and try it out. Danfreedman (talk) 18:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  For Howdybob 

message: Friedrich Wührer spielte auf seinem eigenen BECHSTEIN , den er auch in die Konzertsääle mitnahm !
Does anyone out there know whether Friedrich Wührer habitually played Bösendorfer pianos?  Given that he was Viennese and that he achieved that unusually deep, rich left hand sound in so many of his recordings (sometimes at the cost of a certain lack of animation), I've often suspected that he did, but I've seen no documentation on the issue.  As the originator of the English Wikipedia article on this artist, I'd love to be able to add that detail if true.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drhoehl (talk • contribs) 00:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Friedrich Wührer, Bösendorfer User? 

message: I see that my contribution naming Pratt as having recorded on the instrument was stricken for want of a reference.  Sorry if I transgressed; for all that I've been actively contributing to Wikipedia here and there for some time, I still would not claim to be other than a neophyte.  Nonetheless, I'm somewhat perplexed.  Reviewing the references cited, most of which go to the Bösendorfer company site, against other artists listed in the same section of the article, I find confirmation some have played, or at least owned, Bösendorfer pianos, but, unless I missed something, several (Brian, Joseph, Rübsam, o'Connor, and May and Mercury) are nowhere to be seen.  (I'll leave aside that the names listed in the article are by no means all as distinguished as some omitted there but appearing in the references!)   Perhaps more to the point, I also see nothing to substantiate the claim that Bösendorfers figured in the albums "Punch the Clock" or "Up," although Peter Gabriel's name did appear in a referenced site.  So why is specific annotation required for the Pratt album, a classical album, which is the context in which I suspect most pianophiles would expect to find a Bösendorfer, but not the pop ones?  For what it's worth, I own the Pratt CD in question, and its booklet makes quite clear that Pratt recorded it on an Imperial.
By the by, for the record, while I have heard Pratt in concert with much enjoyment, I'm not trying to plug his Bösendorfer recording.  I remember his live "Pictures," in particular, as far more compelling than the rather heavy account on the CD.  I added the reference because I thought it would be useful in pointing to a specific, readily accessible recording of the piano in large-scale mainstream literature for those who want to hear its unique voice. Drhoehl (talk) 02:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I removed it, I do think Pratt's addition is perfect for this article.  I researched the people/articles listed in that section and they at least mention and link to this Bosendorder article, where Pratt's did not.  But, you have solid album notes which is perfect reference and so this fact can be added to Pratt's article and to this one.  Please see Template:Cite album-notes and add this information back in.  Thank you for your contributions.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 03:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the clarification and for restoring the passage.  I'm not quite sure how to incorporate a template (as noted, I'm still pretty new at this game), but, my own disc now being copied to my music server and placed into somewhat inaccessible storage for safekeeping, I dug out the title and catalogue info from Amazon and added it to the article manually.  Oh, and I should add to my comments above that while I wasn't entirely sold on Pratt's "Pictures" recording, I think his Bach transcription is quite impressive and really shows off what the Bösendorfer can do. Drhoehl (talk) 20:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference Required for Awadagin Pratt, Bösendorfer User--Why Not Others? 

message: I just gave the article a bit of an overhaul and spotted a couple of issues I don't know how to resolve (and don't have time to research just now).  First, is the outgoing Austrian owner BAWAG or BAWG?  Both spellings appeared in the article before my revisions.  Second, the article describes Bösendorfer as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Yamaha, but it also indicates that consummation of the sale will likely take place in 2008.  Is the first statement presently true in light of the second? Drhoehl (talk) 21:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questions I Don't Know How to Answer 

message: Moved sound characteristics discussion to a new section.NorCal Bosie (talk) 17:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Very interesting. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 22:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I'd like to remove the sound description from the first paragraph of this article, "Bösendorfer pianos are noted for their dark, full-bodied sound compared with other top models." Sound perception is such a subjective subject and I dread going there... But I don't believe "dark" or "full-bodied" are accurate assessments of most Bosendorfer pianos. It's dangerous to put a label to a stereotypical sound for any piano model because there are so many factors involved with each piano such as environment, tuning and voicing. Just my .02. NorCal Bosie (talk) 00:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur. It may be appropriate to note this elsewhere in the article, especially if we can cite a reference, but it definitely doesn't belong in the lead paragraph. (Your proposal probably should have its own section on this talk page, but I'm feeling lazy.) Rivertorch (talk) 07:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree as well.  Feel free to remove anything that is not sourced.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 22:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: That would be great for the article but must bear in mind the basic policies of no Original Research (can't be in your own words), Verifiability, Reliable sources.  ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 22:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Mmm. I think that might be difficult. I recognize and have respect for these policies. However, I believe the utility of the articles to readers is the ultimate standard by which any edit or addition should be judged. In other words, the dogma is ok, but pragmatism should win in a fight with dogmatism. With some work, hopefully there won't be a fight, but it will take longer to find credible references describing the sound quality. In the mean time, the question is ... would the article be more useful with less content? Danfreedman (talk) 06:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sound Characteristics of  Bösendorfer 

message: Another user is deleting the section on recordings in its entirety, without discussion, citing "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" and a broad claim of lack of references.  Please permit me to offer a case for retention, at least in part.  First, "indiscriminate collection" is not, by its own terms, directly applicable; it enjoins against including plot summaries, lyrics databases, long and sprawling lists of statistics, and news reports--none of which is a relatively compact listing of recordings illustrating use of a somewhat exotic musical instrument that is the subject of the article in which the listing appears.  Second, the deleting editor also takes issue with a lack of references.  That problem is true of most entries in the popular section but of only one or two in the classical section, suggesting that tarring both sections with that brush is excessive; if unreferenced entries are the problem, the solution is not to delete the referenced entries along with them.  Moreover, at least some of the classical entries illustrate features unique to the Bösendorfer, as with the Beethoven sonata cycle recorded with assistance of its proprietary computer playback system, while others point to the piano's involvement in recordings/performances of historical significance.  Again, if the problem is a listing with less significant entries, the solution is judicious paring, not wholesale deletion.
OK, that's my view.  I would suggest that discussion is in order.  Meanwhile, I have again restored the section to preserve its content pending development of a consensus among contributing editors. Drhoehl (talk) 22:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of the recordings 

message: I'm wondering if maybe we should do away with the photo of Brendel.  He is not mentioned anywhere in the article as especially associated with Bösendorfer, and, at least on my monitor, it takes some pretty close inspection to determine that the piano is a Bösendorfer at all; that label on the side just doesn't show up very well.  Moreover, frankly, the photo looks like a piano that has sprouted a head and hands, or maybe a guy with a piano for a body. Alternatively, if Brendel does have an association with Bösendorfer justifying retention of the photo, the article should be revised to put that information adjacent to it. Thoughts, anyone? Drhoehl (talk) 21:42, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: @Drhoehl 2400:2653:E240:B000:A16C:B543:D346:372C (talk) 02:40, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brendel photo 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following has a problem with the timeline:   
"After the release of the Microsoft Windows v3.1 operating system, the 290SE could be attached to a PC computer for recording, editing, and playback. The 290SE system was the first commercially available computer-controlled "player piano" capable of accurately reproducing both the notes and intensity of a performer's playing. Unfortunately this system was not further developed or patented due to its high cost. Competitors soon introduced patented reproducing piano technologies such as the Yamaha Disklavier in 1982"
Windows 3.1 was introduced c1990.  The Yamaha Disklavier could not have come after it if the date is correct.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwy47 (talk • contribs) 04:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with timeline