Talk:Military history of North Macedonia

message: Firstly, I am not a Communist. Seconly, the term "partisan" in the article does not refer to the Yugoslav Partisans so do not attribute to them in the article and therefore do not capitalize the term partisan. Thirdly, stop adding POV information from nationalist Bulgarian websites. If you continue to vandalize the article, you will be reported. Frightner 06:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Partisan

message: Do not nominate articles for speedy to deal with editing conflicts, as was just done for this article.  I of course have declined to delete it; this is clearly illegitimate, and disrupts the operation of Wikipedia. DGG (talk) 10:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: alert

message: I'm not sure if we should cosider it a reliable link as there seems to be a confusion with it. Just read the article about Bulgaria and the one about Republic of Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by  (talk • contribs) 
:I did not initially use the article as a point of reference, I only included it because it implements the event in the timeline of Macedonian history making it stand out as an important event. But it is okay with me if you would like to remove it because it explains that Bulgaria was forced to declare war on Germany after withdrawing from Macedonia. Frightner 11:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Investment News link 

message: Should't we protect the article fo a while and discuss it. There is too much controversy in this one and too much nationalistic POV. I myself will refrain from editing for now and post suggestions here before adding them to the article. But it surely has to be made really balanced - presenting both POVs and not only the ethnic Macedonian one. It might turn out to be a lesson in history for all of us. --Laveol T 12:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Very reasonable and cool-head proposal. Lantonov 13:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, I requested that this article be protected earlier. One of the IP contributors has broken the three-revert rule and has been reported but continues to revert the article. The user is a POV pusher and uses nationalist websites as sources. Frightner 13:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

text: You are right, Frightner, a quick perusal of the given references and external links shows that most of the documents quoted can be identified as Macedonian nationalist. Lantonov 14:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow 

message: This is a dispute about what should be included in the article. Should it include:
#Short introduction about the region of Macedonia.
#Engagement of the partisan squads of the invading German, Italian, Bulgarian forces 
#Reaction of the local population
#Outcome 
Mr. Neutron 14:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment: National Liberation War of Macedonia

message: The topic itself is fraught with controversy because Yugoslavian and Bulgarian textbooks have carefully selected facts about this period. Yugoslavian textbooks have omitted the major fact that Macedonia, Serbia, and Hungary were liberated from Nazis mostly by the Bulgarian Army who left 130,000 dead on battlegrounds like Stracin, Strazhica, Drava-Sobolch with some help at the later stages by detachments of the Soviet III Ukrainian Army. Bulgarian textbooks have omitted the fact that in some parts of occupied Vardar Macedonia there was a resistance and organised struggle which was quenched by violence from the Bulgarian occupying force. In fact, there was organised struggle during this period against the Bulgarian government (partisans) in the whole teritory of Bulgaria and this resistance was organised by the Bulgarian Communist Party. It is hard to say where it is national Macedonian resistance and where it is anti-fascist (or communist) resistance. The truth, as always in this cases, lies somewhere in the middle. Lantonov 15:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that there were revolts in all of Greater Bulgaria is apparent but this article itself is based on the events in the Vardar Banovina from 1941-1944 by participating ethnic Macedonians. These are the issues that need to be covered in the discussion. Frightner 15:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  + the fact that a substantial part of the population of this particular region did take part in the war on the bulgarians' side. What we should have is both views presented - that part of the people in Vardar Macedonia were resisting and part of them really welcomed Bulgaria. --Laveol T 15:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but the article is about the "war", those welcoming the occupiers were not involved in the war, the article should be about those partaking in the resistance against Axis Powers. Frightner 15:42, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess I didn't express myself clearly - about 40% of the Bulgarian army in Vardar Macedonia sonsisted of locals. This is what I meant should be included --Laveol T 15:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh okay, I misunderstood what you meant. My apologies. Frightner 15:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The situation is unclear in many of these cases where local people from Vardar Macedonia (calling themselves 'anti-fascists' or 'communists') were fighting against local people (calling themselves Bulgarians and called by the former 'collaborationists', 'traitors', 'fascists', etc.). So what was it: struggle for national liberation, civil war, or a mixture of both? I think all of the struggles mentioned in the article are of this sort and they can be called national liberation, anti-fascist resistance, or civil war depending on the person who attaches names to them. Lantonov 16:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd like to stress the fact that the "war" is waged for the most part by partisans, numbering at a couple of thousand people at best. Given the fact that for the most part the local population readily cooperated with the Bulgarian invading forces, the distinction between ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Macedonian partisans is crucial. Mr. Neutron 17:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "war" is about any ethnic Macedonians who referred to themselves as anti-fascists or communists who were fighting Axis forces (anyone allied with Nazi Germany, including locals of Vardar Macedonia allied with either Bulgarian, German or Italian fascists) for the liberation of any region of historic Macedonia to establish as a future and independent Macedonian state. Frightner 14:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's identify the causes of conflict 

message: I see that the article has been greatly improved and written in a NPOV. I am satisfied with the contributions to the article so far as they involve both parties. One source that I am still unsatisfied with is Mak Truth. This website is administered by nationalist Bulgarians whose objective is to publicize the "truth about Macedonia" in a sense that it discloses information that ethnic Macedonians were Bulgarians. Frightner 10:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As of the moment I cannot really understand what the sentence which is referenced withthis site has to see. I think its some sort of a mismatch and I'll try to repair it, along with the link :) --Laveol T 10:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Laveol. Also, do you think the IP contributor's link to Balkans Campaign rather than History of the Balkans is more relevant to the article, as it took place before the Liberation War of Macedonia? Frightner 10:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say both are valid. I even thought about Invasion of Yugoslavia, but it turned out that it had nothing in it about this. Only the structure of Yugoslavian armies which had to defend the country - none of these seven armies was in Macedonia, though. --Laveol T 11:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Invasion of Yugoslavia and the post-invasion offensive (Yugoslav People's Liberation War) generally refers to the revolt in Nedic's Serbia and does not collaborate information about then independant or annexed states such as Croatia and Vardar Macedonia. With that being said, the articles about Yugoslavia in 1941-1944 essentially detail the events in Serbia as Yugoslavia did not exist within this period of time. Frightner 11:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't want to disturb your work, but there is a huge concern with your map. How can Bulgaria occupy a part of Bulgaria? It is the nowadays Blagoevgrad province I'm talking about - at the time it was part of the Sofia province? Could you fix it, cause I'm pretty sure a country cannot possibly occupy a part of its own territory. --Laveol T 13:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you can see, the thick black line outlines the countries' borders prior to the invasion of Yugoslavia, so the fact that the Blagoevgrad Province is in Bulgaria is indicated. As for your question, the map portrays the occupation of the historic Macedonia to assert the idea that there were armed detachments in those regions. Frightner 13:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement

message: Another interesting Macedonian source of that time with photo:
ИЛИНДЕН 1941 ГОДИНА. ЖИВИТЕ УЧЕСНИЦИ ВО ИЛИНДЕНСКОТО ВОСТАНИЕ ПРАЗНУВАА ВО СЛОБОДНА БИТОЛА.
 
Напред вдесно е членот на Главниот штаб на востанието Анастас Лозанчев. Роден во Битола во 1870 година. Еден од првите дејци на ВМОРО во Битола. Член на Битолскиот окружен комитет. На Смилевскиот конгрес е избран за член на Главниот штаб на востанието заедно со Даме Груев и Борис Сарафов. После востанието живее во Софија до 1908 година кога се враќа во Битола.
При српската окупација во 1912 е принуден одново да се врати во Бугарија. Во 1941 заедно со другите живи илинденци активно учествува во востановувањето на бугарско управување во Вардарска Македонија. Умира во Софија во 1945 година.
Lantonov 16:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Macedonian historical documents 

message: As user Frightner points out above, he initiated this article in order to include any struggle in the "historic Macedonian region" during WWII which had for its aim "establishing of independent Macedonian state". Let's analyse the aims of the struggles described in the article:
As pointed out in the article and supported by sources, the struggle against Axis powers in Vardar Macedonia was mostly organised by representatives of Yugoslavian Communist Party and emissaries of Tito like Tempo and other Serbian and Montenegrin nationals who formed ASNOM. The struggle took place mostly in the Italian-occupied zone with isolated cases in the Bulgarian-occupied zone. As is also pointed out, ASNOM changed its original aim (independent Macedonia) to "Macedonia as a part of Yugoslavia", that is, not independent. Therefore, the partisan struggle organised by ASNOM does not fulfil the aim of this article. As also pointed out in the sources, part of the IMRO members who collaborated with the Bulgarian occupying force also had the aim of "liberating Macedonia from Serbian rule and making it independent", in fact, independent Macedonia. So, the struggle of this pro-fascist individuals (not necessarily pro-Bulgarian but pro-panMacedonian) against ASNOM also can be listed as a struggle for national liberation.
In Pirin Macedonia, the partisan movement was totally organised by the Bulgarian Communist Party. The aim of this movement was devoid of any nationalistic elements and was to depose the pro-fascist monarchist government of Bulgaria and substitute it with "dictatorship of the proletariat" that is, a communist regime of Soviet type. This is supported by ample historical documentation, including the given documents in the Soros site.
In Aegean Macedonia, the population was with mixed ethnicity - part Slav and part Greek. The Slav population of the German and Italian-occupied territories there enlisted in the partisan movement organised and led by two Greek parties who had partly nationalistic aims (liberating Greece from the foreign occupation) and partly ideological aims (anti-fascist and pro-communist). The Slav population in the Bulgarian occupied territories supported in masse the Bulgarian troops and enlisted as volunteers to fight against the Greek-led anti-fascist resistance in these territories. Part of those volunteers had the aim of "independent Macedonia" and the larger part had the aim of uniting all Bulgarian ethnic elements from the 3 Bulgarian regions: Moesia, Tracia, and Macedonia. There is some historical evidence to support that local volunteer Slav brigades were formed at this time with the aim of "independent Macedonia", however, most of the documentation for this was destroyed by Greeks during and after their Civil War following WWII.
It must be stressed, however, that all the described nationalistic aims were secondary and subservient to the ideological aims which can be (somewhat simplistically) described as communist against fascist. Lantonov 10:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All individual sources in the article have different opinions on what the war was about, but before the majority of contributions using Bulgarian sources change the context of the article the article was about one thing and did not contain contradictions. This matter will have to be taken care of in time. There is not enough personal will to read all of every source available to undo contradictions and solve conflicting POV issues. You seem to be stressed over the contents of the article, I suggest, temporarily, that contributing information to the article is absent  and the format and grammar issues are resolved first. This will allow more time later to solve any issues there are about the contents of the article. Frightner 12:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aim of the "Liberation War" 

message: I have two concerns.
#There is a period "." in the end of the current name, please remove it.
#The Republic of Macedonia was established in 1991, so during WW2 there was the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, or maybe Vardar Banovina in transition to SRM. Mr. Neutron 18:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry to see that the attempt of civilised discussion turned in such an ugly anti-Bulgarian slandering campaign. Probably to be expected but still, a pity. Lantonov 06:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: As an afterthought, maybe a probably better title of the article will be "(Military) History of the region of Macedonia during WWII" and talk about the whole region without trying to separate communist-fascist and national movements. Lantonov 06:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I support Neutron that we cannot talk about history of Republic of Macedonia during WWII because it did not exist at that time. Also in the template "History of Republic of Macedonia" this history goes as far back as 681 AD when the Bulgarian state was formed. It is, mildly said, historically incorrect. History of the Republic of Macedonia starts with the beginning of this Republic (September 8, 1991). Everything else is a history of Macedonia as a region. Lantonov 11:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New title of the article

message: Jingiby keeps spreading fascist propaganda on this article, he doesn't even make any decent contributions.. I mean, let's face it, the guy can't even spell. What's the deal with the picture of the small pro-Fascist population waiting to greet the homosexual Boris III and his f**k buddy, Hitler? If all Macedonians were pro-fascist at the time, there wouldn't have been a war, would there? Use that expired organ you call a brain. Frightner 09:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Lol, I see you have a sense of humor Lantonov. Frightner 10:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And where are your sources, Frightner. Please, list them, so people may have a look. Every source I look at, you say it is Bulgarian propaganda, including official books from Skopie, book from a former president of Macedonia, and speeches before the Macedonian parliament. It is exasperating. I put in the talk a section on "Macedonian historical documents". If you put a list there, people can take a look and discuss them. Lantonov 10:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't spell Skopje like a Greek nationalist again. Frightner 10:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Sorry, not deliberate about Skopje.Lantonov 10:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Greeks spell Skopje as "Skopia" (Σκόπια), nationalists or otherwise, and please refrain from racial slurs. Calling all Greeks nationalists for minor adaptations on the name according to the clitics and cases of their language does not help. This is your first WP:NPA warning by me, Frightner, and I also don't like your comment here, which I can perfectly understand ("death to Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians" etc). Normally you should have been blocked for these, not to mention your userbox in the same diff. NikoSilver 11:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Congratulations, excellent translation, one of my favorite quotes too. Why does Jingiby keep removing sourced information, especially "By the end of the war the Macedonian National Liberation Army numbered over 56,000 combatants in the Vardar Banovina and this region alone produced some 25,000 victims. German, Italian and Bulgarian occupiers of the region had over 60,000 military and administrative police personnel.[9]", from a Serbian source? Frightner 11:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I heard a Greek coach of a local soccer club call their opposing team this weekend (who happened to be ethnic Macedonians) Skops, so don't tell me who and who not to call nationalist. Frightner 11:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Jingibingy"

message: The author of the private Macedonian blog from which some materials have been stolen and published on Wikipedia without permition along with fake licencing was informed on the issue and he wrote an angry reaction here: http://vbb.blog.com.mk/node/48148 . —Preceding unsigned comment added by  (talk • contribs) 
 
I do not know what the status of this picture is, but I'd suggest you revise your username as it is totally inappropriate. I'd also advise you not to use multiple accounts and refrain from such racial comments. --Laveol T 09:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: hey if the photo was scanned taken from a book, the apparently weak-minded (but I will say: stupid) blog owner also did copyright infringement. I call on editors not to bother trolling here --TheFEARgod (Ч) 14:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  STOLEN MATERIALS 

message: Because of consistent vandalism and reverting this talk is in fact for National Liberation War of Macedonia. Occupation of Vardar Macedonia during World War II is a stub mainly pointing to the above article. Please someone more knowledgable (admin?) fix it. Lantonov 13:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This talk page is for another article 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018)