Talk:Cherokee calendar

message: Cherokee calendar can't be sourced. Bruhac doesn't talk about one and only mentions the Cherokee in relationship to one moon.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D5z3-OHbcVoC&pg=PA54&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PvgLUdr9KafB0gXPoYCwCQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1062645?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101740791487
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=OEbTf663pDcC&oi=fnd&pg=PP7&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&ots=_BiBTGshtL&sig=2wIxUghf2L0Q5DVRhodlrD_UD5U#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/southern_cultures/v018/18.4.snyder.html
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3JH-TPFjLk4C&pg=PA349&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PvgLUdr9KafB0gXPoYCwCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false
. Dougweller (talk) 19:13, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename to Cherokee ceremonial cycle 

message: I am currently restructuring/rewriting Cherokee Society but have targeted this article as my next to look at rewriting/restructuring with reliable sources. I am very glad it was decided to keep it and look forward to the challenge of adding context. Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restructure & Rewrite 

message: : In regards to your concerns above, and I confess that I am not a Native person and I cannot speak for them or you, but I think that if nothing else, a discussion on the relationship to the traditional and astronomical lunar month is in the spirit of Wikipedia's mission, and that the similarities and differences noted above are noteworthy enough to have its own section in that respect. In my own personal opinion, I think a discussion on the differences between the Cherokee calendar and the synodic month may even enhance our understanding of the traditional lore, knowledge and worldview of the Cherokee people, as our lively discussion above demonstrates. Hence, I've gone ahead and made some changes to the article now so we don't spend forever talking about it here, and so we can have a starting point to move forward with. It's not too long or speculative, just a single section on the similarities and differences the traditional Cherokee calendar has with other lunar calendars. If I was too rash in my work, I apologise. Feel free to make alterations as needed; and I would especially like it if it was complemented by further discussion here. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 04:00, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: EDIT: Also some minor rewording of the intro and a footnote introducing the differences of the traditional and astronomical lunar month. If it's too redundant feel free to remove it, but I wanted some way to talk about this aspect in the introduction, and I felt a footnote was the best way to do so without too much intrusion. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 04:14, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

text: Finally, I'd like to say that while the synodic month wasn't used by Cherokee people traditionally, and its knowledge among Cherokee people was likely introduced from the West as a result of colonialism, it doesn't necessarily make concept the synodic month modern or Western. I am ethnically Korean, and East Asian people (Koreans, Chinese and Japanese) have used a lunar calendar based off the synodic month for thousands of years. I am not saying that the Cherokee approach is right or wrong, or that it's better or worse than other calendars out there (and I am sorry if I did previously or made comments that can be interpreted as the same), but I want to help people better understand it by introducing a discussion on its relationship to the synodic month. Once again, I want to reiterate that it is my personal hope that my additions can spark discussions which can enhance our understanding of traditional Cherokee culture and its narratives and worldviews, not "correct" it in any way. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 04:52, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The point I was trying to make is not who created or originated or used a particular type of calendar. I apologize if I have offended you or your ancestry.  My point is that the calendar used by the Cherokee was none of those and I don't see the effort being made to compare a Hindu, Jewish or Asian calendar to the Cherokee calendar on their articles so why try to compare the Cherokee calendar to them on this article when it has nothing to do with any of those other calendars. The proverbial, "If it isn't broke don't fix it" comes to mind. I disagree with trying to compare but you have already added the comments and they are sourced so it can't be disputed as verifiable information because it is technically true. However, I do want it noted that I disagree with this as an editor and a member of Cherokee ancestry. I don't believe it aids in understanding the calendar any more than the information that was originally provided did. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

text: To add, for me it would be like going to an article on Japanese or Korean society and adding even a few sentences in comparison of Cherokee society. It is wholly not needed. They stand on their own and rightly so. Comparison studies can be made independently without including them within the articles, if an editor, historian or the general reader wishes, simply by searching for it. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Section "Comparison with other calendars" added

message: * Tsistunagiska has a point (see above); I think I'll just expand the footnote slightly if I want to explain the differences between in more detail. The section is reproduced below for austerity. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 21:37, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Section "Comparison with other calendars" removed

message: Can I ask why the primary sources consist of a fake tribe http://theucn.com/ceremonies.html and a commercial site https://www.aaanativearts.com ? Also, for the majority of translations, there is only one dialect. I find this a bit disconcerting. Indigenous girl (talk) 20:37, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's take care of that and get rid of the questionable sources. They should have never been used in the first place. Also, what if we took the bullet lists and turned them into spreadsheet charts instead? We could list both dialects in their separated cells so everyone can compare the two more easily. --ARoseWolf 12:37, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  , what do you think about removing the section on the Cherokee Moons Ceremonies? The only online sources I can find that list them are blogs, personal websites, fake tribes and commercial sites. Almost every encyclopedic site mentions the ceremonies but doesn't list them. I don't remember Mooney listing them in his journals either. --ARoseWolf 13:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable sources 

message: I have not yet found an image or species of North American turtle with 28 scutes around the edge of their shell. Many North American species of turtles do have 13 scutes on the backs of their shells (lateral and central scutes), but most have 24 marginal scutes plus 1 cervical scute. The turtle shell in the image in this article does not have 28 scutes around its shell. I have counted scutes on numerous images of turtle shells and examined many physical specimen-- I can't make it add up to 28 no matter how I look at it. I don't know what "certain species of turtle[s]" mentioned in the article have 28 scutes.
I am not qualified to debate whether the claim (that some Native American traditions use the turtle shell as a model or parable to describe a 13 month year with 28 days) is true, but the article should not state the following (bolded) as fact:
"The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used the number of scutes on the backs of certain species of turtles to determine their calendar cycle. The scutes around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as in a lunar cycle, while the center contained 13 larger scutes, representing the 13 moon cycles of a year."
Is there any other documentation that substantiates this claim and its traditional use/origin? I'm skeptical-- though, again, that may not be precisely what needs correcting. Maybe a better question would be: are there any photographs of North American turtle species with the 28 marginal/cervical scutes to substantiate the statements about turtle anatomy that this article claims? 
At very least, the 13/28 scutes statement should be quoted from the cited sources, not stated as fact in the article. 2603:6080:6506:F400:25C5:6C9A:502:5CC5 (talk) 02:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turtles don't have 28 scutes! 

message: The Mooney source mentions Gúyû as a fifth season between Gagi and Ulăgăhûstû. , I assume you removed it based on usage in modern Cherokee, but would it still make sense to mention it as a historical note? Mooney describes the five season system as being retained at the time of writing, which seems noteworthy to include, though I don't know enough to be sure. Geobica (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , I am not opposed to the content being re-added as long as reliable sources, such as Mooney, describe it as so. It was removed more because I couldn't find a second reliable source for the content other than Mooney. I felt we needed that for verification. --ARoseWolf 20:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gúyû