Talk:Kurt Cobain/Archive 2

message: why don't you put a nice photo in instead of that ridiculous one?
I just can't understant it; and yet they want to consider it a feature article. Ridiculos. Anonymous user.
: Yes! I agree! It is incredibly distasteful to see young men looking so drastically "ridiculos"! All featured pages should feature the subject dressed in full regalia, including but not limited to a tuxedo WITH tie, BLACK trousers and shoes, and neatly groomed, well-manicured hair, teeth, and fingernails! 
: Seriously, though-- what --70.108.116.231 14:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rule of thumb: if you don't know for certain that it's usable, it probably isn't.  (Everybody has a good picture of Cobain somewhere.)  We had that picture here last year, but we had to remove it - it's the cover of Cobain: By the Editors of Rolling Stone and is only available under fair use guidelines to identify the book, not Cobain. -- ChrisB 00:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  article's first image 

message: I got a good image that seems to be from the same photo shoot as the main on now, only it features Cobain alone. I can't seem to access it though, as it is from some sort of spanish website, so if you speak spanish go here, search for Kurt Cobain, you can't miss the photo, he's in the same clothing and glasses. and find out whether it can be used. 
:We can't just pull pictures off of websites and use them.  The current photo has a fair use justification because it was distributed as a promotional photo.  The picture you're describing was not. -- ChrisB 22:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Got a good image 

message: How on Earth can an article be beyond the FA class (i.e. be an A-class article), but is not an actual featured article? Iolakana•T 19:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the other way around; FA class is higher than A class.  WesleyDodds 02:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A-class

message: This paragraph has NO BEARING on his life.  Given that it happened during his childhood, it's even less relevant - most people do things during their childhood that they're not proud of.  If he talked about it later in life (as in the case of his vandalism), it would be worth noting.  But that is categorically not the case here.
More importantly, Wikipedia articles are not supposed to include every piece of information about their life.  Those details should be left to published biographies.  Wikipedia articles are supposed to encapsulate the most important elements of a person's life - and this random bit of animal cruelty does not in any way meet that threshold.
Regardless, the Blender article contains numerous inaccuracies.  For example, Kurt DID NOT PLAY DRUMS on Grohl's recordings.  That was a rumor from several years ago that was completely debunked when the full details of Nirvana's final session were explained.  Kurt only attended the sessions for one afternoon, during which they recorded two takes of "You Know You're Right" and a jam.  Kurt was not there for the rest of the session.
Worst of all, that article is clearly sourced from other sources, which are all unnamed.  (There is no way he could have compiled that information first-hand.)  Several of the stories sound like they came from Michael Azerrad's Come as You Are: The Story of Nirvana and Charles Cross' Heavier than Heaven, but there's no way to prove it since the author didn't provide references.  The article very strongly suggests that the author simply read those books and picked out a few highlights.  That Kurt died listening to R.E.M. was an assertion made by Cross that was never suggested or confirmed by the Seattle PD. -- ChrisB 05:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article makes Kurt sound like a god beyond the drug usage. You can't represent that he was such a great guy without counterbalancing it with the amoral things he did, like the animal cruelty, the semen picture, ect. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 05:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I rest my case: . H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 05:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Animal cruelty

message: I've expanded the lead section slightly to fit the guideliens presented at WP:LEAD.  Yes, that means we have to mention his death in the beginning of the article.  However, I think I've written it in a way to keep it as NPOV as possible and not cause problems regarding the whole suicide debate.  WesleyDodds 03:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section 

message: There's a photo I found here, copyright is given, perhaps they can be contacted and we may get a free photo. 
Here's a new photo, a photo of Cobain solo wearing the same outfit and in the same exact spot as the photo we have now, only it's only Kurt. I'd like to have some thoughts from the frequent editors of this article about whether it can be uploaded. 
:Contacting someone for copyright clearance is a fool's errand.  Even if you could find the owner, I highly doubt they'd make the thing free for use.  If they were going to do that, they wouldn't have pressed to have their name and copyright attached to it.
:The latter can't be used because it's an altered version of the same photograph we already have.  (All they did was remove Grohl and Novoselic.)  The picture is copyrighted, the only reason that this one is usable is because it was offered for promotional use in support of In Utero.  The altered photo is a derivative work, which isn't covered by fair use.
:For us to be able to use a picture, it either has to be COMPLETELY free or useable via fair use.  For the latter, that usually means a picture that has been offered for promotional use.  And that's the problem - Cobain was never promoted by himself, only with Nirvana, so the only known promotional photographs are like the one we have.
:Frankly, I don't think this picture is a problem.  We've gone more than two years looking (and failing) to find one that would meet the requirements.  This one does.  Barring a future project (like Journals) where a Cobain pic might be offered for promotional use, it's going to be nearly impossible to find something usable and worth using.
:BTW - don't sign your posts with the user template.  Use four tildes ~ consecutively at the very end of your post so that the time and date of the post will be recorded. -- ChrisB 04:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The template doesn't explain fair use.  Not mentioning it doesn't mean that it's okay.  I added a request to Wikipedia:Requested copyright examinations for someone else to take a look at it and judge its legality here.  Please do not re-add the photograph until we can get a clear answer. -- ChrisB 16:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a much better picture Savagepine 22:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Photo 

message: The article fails to give proper fair use reasoning for why they are included in the article, why they would make the article less valuable if they weren't there. The reason must also be more substantial than that of aesthetics. The blanked fair use tag is not enough by itself, it's a one-size fits all designed to stop one of the many wikibots from deleting and removing images from articles on site.--I'll bring the food 23:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures

message: I removed the suicide note text.  The note's content is of unclear copyright, and was recently removed from Wikisource because it was deemed not to be covered by fair use or to be public domain. -- ChrisB 02:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cobain's suicide note is not particularly relevant to the death article itself, seeing as he is hardly the only person in the world to write a suicide note. He's in the suicide subcategory of the death category, that is enough.Asarelah 23:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suicide Note 

message: I would like to know why someone has asked why the German-American and Irish-American categories were relevant to the article, and has gone so far as to put boxes above the category section asking that the text be made clear as to why they is relevant to the article. Cobain's ethnic heritage is not particularly important, and if you want citations and such, I'll be happy to oblige, but I just don't see why the inclusion of the information has to be justifed as being relevant. Asarelah 04:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ethnic categories

message: Why has no mention of this been made? This article is like a fan page. 81.157.156.104 13:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For God's sake, that was one thing he did as a kid. He wasn't one of those rock stars who was foever killing animals on stage. Something that most teens do at some point isn't crucial to the article. Everything Kurt ever did in his (admittedly short enough not to take up 10 pages, but still) life does not need to be featured in the article.Nukleoptra 17:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animal cruelty 

message: The reason for this is obvious.  It is a fan page.  Obviously.
:I disagree, I think it's very well written and in the formal tone expected of an encyclopedia Savagepine 01:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fan Page 

message: Shouldn't it be mentioned about the case of Kurt's death being featured on Unsolved Mysteries? Just an idea. Cs92 00:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsolved Mysteries story

message: Check The Beatles' miscellanea to see if there is anything in it you can use. A lot of 'miscellanea' needs to be trimmed (as linked articles are improved) so please feel free to use anything before certain sections get zapped into the ether... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 16:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Beatles' miscellanea

message: These statements are notable.  They are specifically cited and sourced.  They are referenced in both Come as You Are and Heavier Than Heaven.  In fact, in the case of the spray paint story, their inclusion in this article serves the more important purpose of noting Cobain's tendency to embellish his life's story beyond what actually happened.  Removing Cobain's statement in that particular paragraph COMPLETELY DESTROYS the paragraph, as it makes the last sentence make absolutely no sense.
Furthermore, these statements are not tabloid in origin or used in a tabloid way.  Cobain specifically arranged the interview with the Advocate and made these statements.  The interview was the cover story of the February 1993 issue.  He even arranged a photo session with noted Seattle photographer Charles Peterson specifically for use with the article.
The statements are cited, sourced, and entirely relevant to this article.  There should be a specific reason to exclude them, one that goes beyond "they're tabloid".  They are not tabloid, particularly given their relevance in the two main Cobain/Nirvana biographies. -- ChrisB 04:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cobain's Advocate Interview

message: Should put in that Kurt is ranked #12 on Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time list. 68.193.216.91 12:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greatest Guitarists of All Time 

message: On the Bleach album, Cobain was attributed as "Kurdt Kobain". We might as well mentioned this in the article? --Lorenzarius 09:48, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurdt Kobain 

message: Her namesake is Frances McKee of The Vaselines, of whom Cobain was a big fan, and not Frances Farmer as is sometimes reported. 
Is there a reference for this? Tommy Stardust 16:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure it's Francis Farmer. I'll have to check Come as You Are. WesleyDodds 00:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frances Bean's namesake 

message: The article doesn't mention his voice at all. I think it should80.212.117.216 18:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vocal style and voice 

message: This section really needs to be straightned out since it cause all sorts of POV problems. Here's my rather controversial proposal: eliminate it entirely. List the books and movies that discuss the debate in other sections, but there is no need to go into detail on the theories. And we certainly don't need point/counterpoint bullet lists; this is an encyclopedia article, not an essay. WesleyDodds 09:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The dispute over his suicide should be summarised in the previous section. CloudNine 09:54, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suicide dispute section discussion