Wikipedia talk:Featured picture candidates/Archive 13

message: Here is an incomplete list of featured pictures that are currently not used in the article that they are supposed to illustrate. Feel free to investigate... --KFP (talk | contribs) 00:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should they be readded? | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 00:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If they are no longer on any pages and consensus on those pages was to remove them for whatever reason, then they will need to be delisted. However, if they just got knocked off by some random person, I would say put them back. howcheng  {chat} 00:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there isn't any discussion for the Chicken picture, so I suppose it was "some random person". I haven't checked the others though. | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 01:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unused featured pictures 

message: I have proposed some additions to the guidelines suggesting that major digital manipulations should be disclosed.  Please comment on the proposals at Wikipedia talk:Featured picture criteria#Digital manipulation of photographic FP candidates. --MichaelMaggs 07:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Digital manipulation of photographic FP candidates 

message: Is it possible to review featured pictures? I recently (catching up on Signpost reading) came across this one: Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/World Map. I've studied several old maps in the past, and there are literally thousands of old maps out there. (Some website are ; ). I'm not quite clear what makes this map stand out from the others at :Category:Old maps of the world (a mix of articles and pictures). And I absolutely agree that articles on some of these maps would be good. To actually look at this one in more detail - :Image:World Map 1689.JPG - even a cursory inspection reveals that the corner artworks are showing the classical Greek elements of Air, Water, Earth and Fire. There is also a wealth of mythological figures and symbolism, as was common on maps at that time - here we have Zeus (Air), Poseidon (water), Demeter (Earth) and the Rape of Persephone (Fire), with Cerberus looking on and an interesting contemporary setting of war and conquest (it looks suspiciously like the English Civil War). Where is the caption for this picture being written? Also, I was very disappointed to see someone questioning the accuracy of the map - that misses the whole point of the Age of Discovery and the long history of the development of maps. We shouldn't be judging the map, but rather the quality of the scan and the map's historical significance. Carcharoth 12:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: For an example of an equally, if not more interesting map, see here. The Library of Congress Map Collection is here. From this I think we can use these maps on Wikipedia. Carcharoth 12:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We have a delisting process, if you feel a picture should no longer be featured. Alternatively, you can nominate as new candidates one or more maps which you think are of greater notability and that might add weight to a delisting nomination. If you wish to add to the caption for that image, you can expand the Description section on its image page (although you need to be careful that your additions don't constitute original research). The caption for the main page won't be written until Howcheng allocates it a date for POTD. --YFB ¿ 23:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the reply. I'd actually prefer to find a source (needed to avoid WP:OR as you point out) and write articles for these maps, rather than write a caption for the picture. How many featured pictures are there, and how often are they reviewed? Carcharoth 00:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The official featured picture count is currently 730, they can be viewed at Wikipedia:Featured pictures. When someone sees an image there that they don't think meets the criteria, they can nominate it for delisting. --KFP (talk | contribs) 00:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Review of featured pictures 

message: We're close to decision-time for Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates#Killer_whale_mother_and_calf, where there is support based on content and opposition based on technical aspects, particularly sharpness & colour quality. A few days into the nom, MIckStephenson offered to try enhancing the photo, and at the same time I asked the photographer if he could make a better scan. I should have put the nomination into suspension then, but didn't think of it. In the past few hours, the photographer has told me he can't find the original photo, and upon learning this, MIckStephenson has done what I think is a good job of enhancing the version we have. (See User_talk:MIckStephenson#Killer_whale_photo) I'd like for MIckStephenson's edit to have a chance, if that's OK, without disrespecting the process. Should we add the new edit to the nomination, start a new nomination, or wait a while before re-nominating, or give up, or ... ? Kla'quot 08:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I see you already added the new version to the nomination page. I'll move it the nom to the "additional input required" section. Optionally, you can notify the opposers of the new version on their talk pages. --KFP (talk | contribs) 19:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So how are we dealing with those kinds of cases in general? The Bézier curves nomination has been up for more than month now. ~ trialsanderrors 06:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What to do with an improved version of an almost-closed candidate? 

message: This nomination has been listed since February 21. There is still no consensus on whether to promote the combined version or the separate images as a set.  Please comment. --KFP (talk | contribs) 10:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'll promote it as a set tomorrow unless someone offers a compelling reason not no do that. --KFP (talk | contribs) 19:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  go for it.  Debivort 21:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call. And can we pull the AFD nominations too now that they've been promoted to BJAODN? ~ trialsanderrors 05:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Bezier curves]] 

message: Not sure where to leave this note, so leaving it here and at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. There is a discussion at Talk:Main Page#Tomorrow's featured picture about suitability of some pictures - kind of an attempt to prepare a response in case there is any reaction to the forthcoming eye surgery picture and the later 'hawk eating vole' picture. Input over there would be appreciated, or pop over there and ask people to bring the discussion somewhere over here instead. Thanks. Carcharoth 21:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main page talk discussion about featured pictures 

message: Sorry for posting it in the wrong location. I thought I'd get the best response here.  I am usually involved in the FAC review process and also write a lot of FAs. Although ideally I would like all articles to have featured pictures, which is impossible at the moment, I would still like to know what sort of improvements I can make for my articles. Assuming that I don't have JPEG artefacts, my image is non-blurry, and subject is in focus, are there some standard ways to improve an image? For example, should I run all images though the Auto-level function, or increase the saturation? I would like get the best looking images for a FA. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry there is no such thing yet as a MakeFP Photoshop filter. The most crucial moment (IMO) is when pressing the shutter release, not afterwards. Some improvements are always possible, but They'll have to be done on a per picture basis. I can give you a bunch of examples where autolevels produces just crap. And increased saturation just for the sake of more colors is not advisable either. For encyclopedic purposes you should aim for faithful reproduction. --Dschwen 14:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! So what improvements can you suggest to make images in the article as close to a FP as possible? What should I be looking out for? =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not to recruit...but if you hang around here for a while (voting and such), you learn quite a lot about what makes a good image, as well as how to improve your own. A lot of comments leave links to articles you might otherwise not have known about (e.g. Rule of thirds). --Tewy 18:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I'm an average photographer, I hope to get some of my photos featured someday (though I've got two maps up to featured status). What I'm looking for is to make the images on a page more visually striking. As an article editor, I have to make do with what I have, so am looking for tips on what to do to make it as visually striking as possible. WP:WIAFP is not very helpful in these respects. =Nichalp «Talk»= 05:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Wow! That was really informative. Coming to examples, I'm currently copyediting Kaziranga National Park for FAC. Images here are not the best quality, so we have to make do with ones from flickr or commons. Any suggestions? =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I've also taken a look and one thing I'd suggest would be going back to flickr and obtaining the full-size versions of all the images, as they're licenced under CC-BY. That'll it easier to make high-quality edits, for starters. The rhino photo would benefit from a different crop from the full image. I've started some editing on Assam_042.jpg and will upload that one when I've finished with it. --YFB ¿ 09:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think most of them are full size uploads. They're none too sharp, unfortuantely, so bigger probably isn't going to be (much) better, even if they were downsampled, which I would suggest they should be. mikaultalk 12:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My bad, I should have specified - the Peter Andersen images are all full-size but the rhino and the forest-burning are available at flickr at higher resolutions. Downsampling might still be a good idea but at least you're starting with all the data then. --YFB ¿ 12:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

text: With regard to increasing the image sizes, I agree that they're too small and 250px would seem a more sensible size. Unfortunately the manual of style specifically instructs against this. If you're hoping to get it through FAC, you may well find that they get made smaller again. Personally I think the default image size in MediaWiki needs increasing to reflect the increase in average screen resolution; not so long ago everyone was using 800x600 but now it's more likely to be 1024x768 at least. I'm using 1280x1024 and at that resolution the images look squashed into the margins. --YFB ¿ 10:25, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just added to a discussion (instigated by user:Nichalp! small wiki..) reviewing the 'images' section of WP:MOS and suggested the 180px stipulation be raised to something more sensible. Your point about screen resolution got me thinking that screen size is generally greater now too, 17" being something like a default. With more display real estate the bigger display font users will not be inconvenienced so much by a 250px thumb the way they were with the old VGA 15" monitors. Most of them will surely be dead soon anyway... the monitors, that is ;o) mikaultalk 11:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea, I'll add my opinion there. Cheers, --YFB ¿ 12:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture enhancements 

message: There's a great script for Flickr made for Greasemonkey that adds a bar to the left of the picture with a gradient of black to white, and mousing over a shade turns the entire background to that color. It's really great to eliminate distractions on the page and is extremely useful for evaluating images, which made me think how useful it would be for looking at a FPC. It's some pretty complicated Javascript though -- would it be possible and would anyone know how to modify it to fit Wikipedia and/or Commons?
Script: http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/6934 -- BlastOButter42 See Hear Speak 01:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can anyone modify this Greasemonkey script to work with Wikipedia? 

message: I'm somewhat troubled by the repeated delist nominations because an image is over X old and would not pass today's standards with either no or very weak secondary reasoning to delist... by the logic the nominators are using we should start automatically delisting images one or two years after they were nominated which would leave us with no does not meet requirements now arguments but would also leave us without many of Wikipedia's great photos being featured. Cat-five - talk 02:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think anyone's really nominated anything just because it was featured a long time ago. The concerns have usually been that the criteria have become more stringent and thus some pictures which were "among Wikipedia's best" in 2004 now look very ordinary. It's healthy for pictures to get a second look now and again to compare with "the current standard" - it allows us to show that our content has improved since Wikipedia was first established. While it's helpful for the delist nominator to provide detailed reasoning, in a lot of cases it's very obvious that an image isn't up to the current standards. We've discussed this heavily in the past, so you might want to look back through the archives of this talk page to see how a consensus developed in support of considering old FPs by today's criteria and delisting them if they wouldn't be promoted today. --YFB ¿ 03:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delist because of over X old 

message: This is not at all relevent to the FPC process, but I figured some similarly minded people here would have an opinion about something I stumbled across on the article Fraser Island. This image in the summary infobox says: "The photo should always have the phrase "Photo: Silje L. Bakke" in the caption. The word "photo" may be translated.". Given that the image has been licenced under GFDL (although CC would be quite similar I suppose), should this still be required? I understand that it is usually a matter of courtesy to respect their wishes, but doesn't such obvious attribution detract from Wikipedia? My opinion is that the attribution is on the image page - it doesn't need to be on the article page too. If I'm right in thinking this, is it wrong to remove this attribution from the article caption? Thoughts, anyone? Diliff   | (Talk)   (Contribs) 11:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aricles are not signed on the article page, neither should photos. --Dschwen 16:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. Remove it and perhaps let him down gently on his talk page - he may not be aware of our policy of providing attribution on the image description page only. --YFB ¿ 16:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree but even finding the right userpage for him seems to be fairly convoluted, the one for him on commons consists really of just a couple of templates including one for improper location on his userpages in mainspace and I don't have the knowledge of norwegian to try to track down not to mention communicate with him on that wiki. Cat-five - talk 06:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Licencing and requirements for attribution for images on Wikipedia 

message: I have closed this nomination due to licensing restrictions on the image.  A) this is not a free image per the licensing terms requirements for FPC candidacy, B) the only reason this is allowed at all on the project is due to the fact that an exception had to be made by the foundation for certain uses or there would be numerous self contradictions and paradoxes in the usage restrictions (even more than there already are).  Those who know me know that I never close noms anymore for reasons that you who know me know however in this case I felt it was necessary, I don't remember exactly where but there have been issues like this before (ever once in awhile the logo is put up for FPC) and it's unfortunate but even FPC guidelines aside we can't use the image outside of the official logo space and outside of the Wikipedia and a few other related articles.  On the comment on the nomination that everyone is doing it, yes they are but when it is enforced they're told to take it off their user space and just because everyone's doing it isn't really a good excuse.  I'm sorry if I sound like a bore but I've rather be proactive and do it myself than have the WP:Office Gestapo (sorry for anyone who may be offended by the comparison) cause pain for everyone when they'd assuredly overreact and probably do something stupid like lock down all of FPC and related pages. Cat-five - talk 07:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidentally it also had a snowball's chance in hell of passing but I try to never use that as a reason if possible. Cat-five - talk 07:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Wikipedia Logo]] 

message: This nom was impropperly closed. I reopened it and put it back on the page to close again. Now apparently this means the voting period is extended?! That is just unfair. Should the impropper closing destroy the FP status of the picture? Why should that nom be open any longer than the others, especially if a policy violation was the reason in the first place.
This is just great! I won't complain that some of the votes cast on my recent nominations are a little unfounded, to put it mildly. That's just life. But if procedure is twisted on top of it, that just makes my wikistress level rise.
Ah well this bitching is not going to give me sympathy votes, but frack it, they should be about the images anyways... --Dschwen 07:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * Has the closing procedure for promoted noms always been as complicated as it is now? I tried to do my bit to reduce the promoted FP backlog, but only finished one - which took something like 15 edits to complete? Couldn't it be simplified or botted or something? Debivort 08:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *I worked with the pywikipediabot framework to create an automatic closing-bot for the quality image cadidates page on commons. I could create a similar bot for FPC. The consensus evaluation procedure would have to be done by hand (inserting the verdict promoted, not promoted, if promoted: which edit, what category the pic will be sorted into). For the latter I could even create a Javascript helper plugin. I'll go over the whole procedure and double check if it is feasable. --Dschwen 08:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *That would be sensational Dschwen! Look forward to it! Oh and I agree that your nom was closed improperly, I'm not sure Sunshine Man as a week-old user has yet learnt how FPC works. I don't want to discourage you Sunshine Man (if you're reading this) but please just take it easy for a bit and get used to Featured Picture Candidates for everyone's sake! --Fir0002 10:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I closed it as promoted. Since I opposed the picture there is no conflict of interest on my side. I also believe Dschwen's Externsteine and Fir's Goats were improperly closed. I don't think you have to be admin to close FPC nominations, but a certain amount of tenure and experience in the process are necessary to gauge consensus and close nomination. ~ trialsanderrors 20:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sparrenburg nom 

message: Hi, some people might remember from a few weeks ago when I dared to vote down one of Fir0002's incredibly dull tomato snaps. Well, after a short time away I have been able to sit down with the internet for a little while and see that not only was the tomato image eventually accepted, Fir0002's images have in fact rarely been off the wikipedia main page.
Wikipedia is nepotistic and inward-looking beyond belief. I suspected this before, but it has become astonishingly obvious.
I am sure Fir0002 will respond hastily with what seems his customary short temper. That's okay. Perhaps he's just a little frustrated at not being able to get out of his little creek in Australia and take photographs of anything except fornicating insects (as somebody hilariously put it...). In the last few weeks I have taken photographs of toxic waste dumps in Russian cities, heavily armed guards bearing well known MNC logos patrolling corporate headquarters and demonstrations in Turkey well attended by riot cops in full body armour. And yes, I love to come home and take some shots of cute lambs or ladybirds but I'd hate to think that I couldn't use photography for what it really is: a tool to document important epochal events.
The reason I am posting this now is because I was just flicking idly through the current featured picture candidates and I saw a shot of a French riot policeman get almost universally voted down.
Okay... I have to admit, it's NOT a stunning image. The isolation of the cop makes it seem rather sterile and meaningless, although I am more than aware that taking photographs in such situations is a LOT harder than pointing a macro lens at an insect on a leaf...
Therefore, my only real point here is that I think it's really pathetic that wikipedia FP disregards photographs purely for technical reasons. As somebody pointed out, there are hundreds of iconic images that people here would sit smugly and point out bad contrast, not "big enough", blur, "wrong" depth of field, blown highlights, wrong film speed, artifacts, whatever and whatever... I just want to give my opinion that people who say such things can never claim to be photographers: they are just technicians, most of whom have probably only used digital equipment, and so judge a photograph on whether its pixels retain clarity at 1600% (or whatever...).
If Fir0002 can take a single photograph that makes me consider the world in a slightly different light I will retract my comments aimed at him personally, but if not, simply carry on taking the excellent images of fornicating insects and others...
--Vaelta 08:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I agree on some points such as that some of the most iconic photographs are often poorly focused, exposed etc.; but I really really don't think that isolate cop have the impact of things like this and seriously that photo's quality is no where near the bar. Also, bear in mind that Wikipedia is an Encyclopaedia not a playground of journalism. Photography is not solely for journalism, maybe that's something you've misunderstood, it's art, it's information, AND it's a record of things. We could sure use some journalism in our FPs, but that's no reason to let in some rather poor shots just for the sake of it. --antilivedT | C | G 08:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

text: [edit conflict] Hi Vaelta - thanks for expressing your opinion here. I have commented in the past that I suspect people often use technical reasons to oppose an image as cover for other less politically correct reasons they might harbor for opposition. "Blown highlights" as a cover for "yet another boring flower." So I agree with you that there are flaws in the voting system that arise out of too much reliance on technical factors. That said, photography is a tool for documenting anything, flowers, humping bugs, nebulae, etc. not just "epochal events." If you feel this is the primary purpose of photos in an encyclopedia, perhaps you would feel more welcomed contributing to the images that are used in the "in the news" section of the main page. Now, one more point. I don't think it is appropriate to single out Fir0002 for a barage of snarky comments. He has contributed more very-high technical quality images to the project than any other user I know, and if the reward of seeing his name on the main page is enough to keep him contrinbuting, so be it. Moreover, it is needlessly mean. I hope you'll stick around though, because I am confident you will soon realize that you can have more influence on FP ethos with a carrot than with a stick. Debivort 09:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

text: * Carrot = friendly persistent conversation - requires more patience than ranting, but more likely to work long term in my experience. As for Fir having a high success rate, I suspect this has more to do with his understanding of the current consensus criteria, taking many pictures, and then only nominating those he believes will succeed. In other words, I think the criteria have selected for Fir's work, rather than Fir's contributions and legacy guiding the criteria (which sort of seems like what you are suggesting). Of course he has his failures also:      etc... Debivort 09:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm in two minds about this. While I agree, there's way more to a good photograph than technical considersations, for the encyclopedia these are more important than usual, if for no other reason than the greatly reduced scope for inclusion of pictorial, "artistic" work which might "give" the reader something more than just clearly presented information. However I don't accept that means we insist on shooting everything solely for descriptive purposes. I think we'd end up with a raft of seriously uninteresting PODs, for a start off, and slide gradually into a catalogue of context-free, flat-lit exhibits with the (arguably superfluous) capacity for ultra-enlargement. Pixel-popping is fun, but it is given way, way too much relevance on FPC. White backgrounds are often no more neutral than a subject's natural habitat, and much less interesting. As much as we are here to criticise, in doing so we also encourage improvements and steer FPCs to certain goals. Overall, I'd agree there is a danger of encouraging technical prowess over pictoral content, which would be a mistake, IMO.mikaultalk 10:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

text: * I'd usually agree wholeheartedly, but I feel here that Fir0002 is a rather good manifestation of the issue. --Vaelta 17:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *That may be so, but there's no reason not to say something like "users starting in F and ending in 2", or "certain photographers from the southern hemisphere" -- people will still know what you mean.  It's not like people aren't aware of the nepotism in regards to the FPC's, it's just something you have to live with.  Nepotism sucks, but just like Wikipedia's rules against personal attacks, it's not going anywhere.  I have personal issues with some of the pictures (not just of Fir's) that are voted in, but I just accept that they are accepted, and work a bit harder on my own lot. -- KirinX 17:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

text: * This really is an incredibly touchy issue for wikipedia, isn't it? KirinX is probably right, and the guidelines against personal attacks are just as much a part of wikipedia as its rampant nepotism.
However, you are wrong that this has anything to do with any photographs I have ever taken: I was merely trying to point out the incredible lack of diversity that was bred by featuring the same few wikipedian photographers over and over and over again. It is INCREDIBLY boring (and when the tomato picture comes around to the main page I will sigh with exasperation that this is the "best" that wikipedia can offer...). A little diversity is a very good thing. I think that at the very least more historically significant images should be featured on the main page.
But never mind. If wikipedia wants to continue with the inbreeding then it must accept a few chinless wonders... --Vaelta 20:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * You seem to be ignoring two important points that have been brought up: 1) There is no need to be mean. It doesn't help. Why set out to hurt other people's feelings? 2) The FP process doesn't choose images based on authorship it choses them based on criteria. Fir has learned to match the criteria well. The lack of diversity has nothing to do with favoring particular photographers - it has to do with favoring narrow criteria, OK? Debivort 21:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * Yes, I do understand this. But narrow criteria, narrow minds, no? I have NEVER said that I think Fir0002's photographs are bad (except some I find very dull, such as shots of sliced vegetables), I just think that more diversity is required because I DO remember when each day's FP brought something very different. The featured articles are incredibly diverse; what happened to featured pictures? "Diversify or die" is a widely held truth... --Vaelta 21:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

text: * Funny, you sarcastic prick. But actually, because I work on assignments, the majority of photographs I take are copyrighted the moment I hit the shutter release button... therefore, I would not be allowed to upload them to wikipedia. However, if you would like me to email you a very low resolution collection, please, just send me an email... --Vaelta 12:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * Don't bother d***head, i've got many assignments to complete too... --144.132.25.135 13:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Fir's brother, this thread was actually fairly civil until until you thought you'd try your luck at witty sarcasm. I didn't crack a grin so save the d***head comments. Get used to personal attacks there are alot of asses out there. Oh and do you usually call your brother by his user name. Vaelta, if you actually care to impart some change to the "inward-looking" attitude take Debivort's advice. A carrot will work better. If you don't want to take the time to make a difference, please dont bother Fir, me, or others who have spent time trying to improve the peoject's pictures. -Fcb981 05:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

text: * Thank you for seeing that it was not actually me who lowered the tone of the debate... And please, don't think I don't see the quality of input that so many people put into wikipedia, and as I am SURE I have already said, most of Fir0002's photographs are extremely proficient from a technical standpoint. However, I don't think it's right that the only way to encourage this to continue is by almost always accepting featured pictures from the same few photographers, none of whom have a track record of diversity in subject. It's NOT about the quality of the images, it's the lack of diversity that bothers me. I hope you can see that. And while I'd agree a prolonged session of carrot teasing might work well in changing wikipedia's policies, I really don't have the time. I just wanted to point out the "democratic deficit" I have noticed. --Vaelta 12:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *It's maybe time to point out that Wikipedia is not intended to be an exercise in democracy... --Dschwen 12:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fornicating insects, Fir0002 and technical obsession... 

message: I was chided for improperly researching for my opinion on the nomination for  lions feeding.  Originally, I replied there, but then I realized it was a huge chunk of irrelevant text the closer would have to wade through, so I figured it would be better to respond here instead.  I wrote:
:Images, are, in a way, original research, so criticizing discussion of images because it violates the policy against original research is a bit strange to begin with. It would be original research of me to go to Africa and write an expose on tame conditions at supposedly wild places. However, I'm not writing anything FOR the encyclopedia. The burden of proof is on the side of information, not lack of information. It is backwards to claim that someone is violating the "no original research" policy by casting doubt on information. 1) I read information 2) I doubt it 3) I bring up my problems with it 4a) someone responds with published research, or in the case of images, more information about how the image was taken or 4b) I remove the information I am skeptical about. Now, if I add in my own suspicions from my own experience, than THAT is original research. If I were to put on the image page "this image has suspiciously low shorn grass and might be from a zoo" that would be WORSE than original research; it would be wild speculation. However, this discussion is neither an encyclopedic article or an image description page, so I can bring up my problems, including speculation, other people can see where I'm coming from, and try to resolve the issue. For example, in one of fir's beetle pictures, I thought the white spots on the beetle might be injuries. This was just speculation, but Fir simply told me that all of the beetles had the same white spots, so I was good. In the case of this lions eating image, I'm particularly skeptical because the photographer didn't nominate, and it's easy for people get the origin of a image wrong, especially when they are translating it. Enuja 21:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, and the spirit of WP:OR is to eliminate uncitable claims in articles not in discussions of articles.Debivort 23:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NOR is for contributions to articles, not for WP or talk page discussions. ~ trialsanderrors 00:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  WP:NOR says it is bad to have original research as article content, not necessarily in discussions about content. Debivort 00:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So we're all in agreement then? I don't think the closer would've taken the objection into account anyway. ~ trialsanderrors 01:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Research in image discussions 

message: The two bird noms in the Decision time section are stale and awaiting a closer. They've been in that section for more than three and four weeks! I'd close them, but I have edits in the running. Debivort 01:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Explain exactly what it needs to do, and I will put it on my list of things to do. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 03:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome! Basically it needs to do as much as possible of the closing procedures described on the FPC page. For promotions, the only part that I expect would need human input (off the top of my head, I may have missed something) would be identifying the right category of FPs and perhaps naming the main article which it illustrates. The closing procedure seems to have got much, much more complicated over the past year or so, it's a real pain to do by hand nowadays. --YFB ¿ 04:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: As long as it works on Linux, it's fine by me. I was also planning to do this kind of thing, but never got around to doing it. MER-C 09:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was originally thinking of a wizard for closing FPCs, with copies distributed out to all significant FPC closers.  Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write it in the foreseeable future. MER-C 13:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I can write it, but someone else will need to run it, I have too many things going on my computer. I will make it *nix compatible, it may even work on a *gasp* Mac as well as real computers(hehe). It may take a little while as I am working on another bot as well. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 13:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can write it, I can run it. That's the easy part :-) --YFB ¿ 13:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I just read the instructions, all the human would have to do is put " --~~~~ Category:Ended featured picture nominations" or " --~~~~ Category:Ended featured picture nominations" on the page and the bot will do the rest. It should be easy to write, though there are rather a few steps for a promotion. I can see why you want a bot to do it. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 13:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The user would probably also need to point the bot to the right category of Featured Pictures (e.g. architecture, mammals, etc.). --YFB ¿ 13:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Hey, what do you folks think of the bots deciding if a picture can be promoted or not? I can look at how many of what colors are used, and compare that the the success rate of the nominators previous nominations and their block log. I may even be able to get the bot to choose it's own image nominations based on how busy their talk pages are... (I am kidding) HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 13:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhm, not that I'd want to fight about who writes it, but I already have a promotion bot for commons QI which could be adapted, and I have a toolserver account to run the bot... --Dschwen 13:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given the differences between the two procedures, I would have thought adapting it would be almost as much work as writing a new one? I'll leave the two of you to fight it out, but the use of a toolserver account is a good idea. High, how come you haven't gone down that route with your other bots? --YFB ¿ 13:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Date and Username detection, nomination archival, and user notification are tasks needed for both procedures. It's more similar than you might guess at first glance. --Dschwen 13:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough - good luck! :-) --YFB ¿ 14:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Please Dschwen take the job, I have not even started. I have another bot request on the table for WP:CHU and WP:USURP. I am thinking of a toolserver account, just never got around to it. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 13:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I have a free day tomorrow. Let's see how far I get. --Dschwen 13:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Did anything ever come of this? (H) 20:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  two backlogged noms 

message: I would like to suggest we move the suspended nominations to a subpage (/suspended nominations or whatever). The main FPC page is long enough, and the suspendees are just tacked on the end. They don't require voter input but rather a (almost always) confirmation of accuracy or copyright. When something develops, they can be moved back into the "further input needed" section. Until, let's keep them out of the way.--HereToHelp 01:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But in order for something to develop, voters and users familiar with accuracy or copyright have to be able to find the discussion. A subpage would deviate attention away from the very nominations that need it. --Tewy 03:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I worry they would just be forgotten - I mean, even closed noms on this page are forgotten for weeks. Debivort 03:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move suspended noms to subpage 

message: Hi,
First up, sorry for not keeping this on the discussion of the actual nom, but just didn't get time to do it while it was up. I really think we need to review FP's such as Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Kimi Räikkönen and others which contain copyrighted logos on them. The reason I'm relatively sure that such images can't be licensed freely is because I've tried to submit photos of motocross riders with logos on their jackets etc to istockphoto and they were rejected because the logos are copyrighted against reproduction without permission. I think this FP and similar ones would run into the same trouble as the licenses they are under include in discriminatory commercial use. --Fir0002 12:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have thought that Wikipedia may be more exempt from such extreme restrictions but I suppose if the images are licenced as unrestricted commercially then the same may apply. I know for a fact that iStockphoto doesn't accept anything remotely trademarked. I even submitted a panoramic view of the Thames in London that featured the London Eye on the left side of the frame and it was rejected because the image of the London Eye is trademarked... iStockphoto are in my opinion far too overcautious (yet inconsistent - there ARE a few London Eye photos on there that have slipped through the cracks) but I have no idea of the legality of Wikipedia using similar images. Diliff   | (Talk)   (Contribs) 12:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: To echo Diliff's observations, if this happens to be the case, then many images licensed as free on wiki are not.  Consider the images in the Times Square article.  I'm not a copyright expert by any means, but I think that the quality and proportion of logo present are important to consider.  Also, the car itself may be considered a trademarked entity, and subject then to fair-use under critic/demonstrative criteria.  Thoughts? --Cody.Pope 12:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I just visited the Science Museum in London, where they have Mika Häkkinen's crashed Formula 1 car on display. There is a "NO PHOTO" sign in front of it, and I asked an attendant why. She told me the sponsors don't want to be associated with a crashed car - very logical. In fact, they have put a large sheet of Scotchlite under the car, which will spoil any attemps to shoot the car with flash (don't ask me why I know... ;-), and the very, very low ambient lighting necessitates hand-held exposures of around 1 or 2 seconds at f4... (don't ask me why I know... ;-) --Janke | Talk 13:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kimi Raikkenon Nom 

message: *Link to removed content
Unproductive thread speedily archived. --YFB ¿ 17:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call, lets leave it that way. (H) 17:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I normally oppose that practice but in this case I agree very good call, ranting personal attack threads have no home here. Cat-five - talk 15:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thread removed 

message: I have found a picture that fits all the requirements for a featured picture. However it was originally uploaded on the French Wikipedia and as such I have a hard time using it. Also it is kind of tricky to list the author. Can I still nominate it?--St.daniel Talk 20:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's the image?--Pharos 20:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is under a free license then it can be moved to the Commons, and then used here. (H) 20:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok thanks --St.daniel Talk 11:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When moving the image to Commons, use CommonsHelper to generate the description for you. howcheng  {chat} 17:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question  

message: First of all I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how to best do it but from reading recent historical FPC's there seems to be a lot of confusion and argument about the historical picture guidelines and while I hate instruction creep as much as the next person I think they should really be clarified or possibly even totally rewritten. Cat-five - talk 15:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just looking at this while copyediting the featured picture criteria. Historical images are cited as exceptions to the first three criteria there, which might warrant a separate note or guideline, but I figured it would probably amount to no more that a reiteration of the mentions they already have there. I'm also considering a proposal to include a guideline about retouching of historical images in criterion #9. I'd certaonly be interested to hear any proposal you have. I'm not aware of any other set of guidelines about this – are there more somewhere else?mikaultalk 19:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there is any other set but if your thinking that a different set of guidelines for retouching historicals vs non historicals I agree entirely because they're two entirely different things though we'd have to be careful about instruction creep as always. Cat-five - talk 15:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  clarification of historically mitigating circumstances / possible rewrite needed of those 

message: Can I have a few second opinions on how to close Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Burrowing Owl, please? I feel that unencyclopedic and technical concerns turn what would be an obvious promotion decision into something that's really borderline. Also, should I box it for the time being, to indicate that !voting has closed. MER-C 08:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even though it's in the borderline range (69% if I counted and did my math right) it's still in the promotion range I think but if in doubt it should be put under the more comments needed section and left open for a little while longer to get more input. Cat-five - talk 09:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Under a straight vote-count, this would be a simple promotion. If consideration is given to the detail in the rationales and reference to the Featured Picture Criteria, it starts to look a bit shaky - I count 7 supports which provide no rationale at all beyond "great image" or "beautiful" (these aren't among the criteria), plus another 7 which boil down to "great image, beautiful, encyclopaedic" without any qualification of what is encyclopaedic about it other than the fact that it's a picture of an animal for which we have an article.  On that basis, I think it'd be a "not promoted"... although - caveat - I was one of the opposers. --YFB ¿ 21:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. I would say there's no consensus here. The opposition arguments are lot stronger IMHO. howcheng  {chat} 21:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That's an extremely slippery slope though, countless noms would be promoted if we discounted all the oppose votes that didn't cite a reason, if we're going to be really by the book on this then we need to write down and implement that any votes without a policy based reasoning included in the vote will be discounted. Cat-five - talk 00:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if I agree completely. Discounting of oppose votes would generally only occur when there is a significant argument raised for the promotion of the image that was not addressed. And vice-versa (and probably more likely), a support vote might be discounted if it did not address a significant reason for opposition. A lot of FPCs aren't very contentious and it comes down to a matter of opinion and taste - in which case it probably wouldn't be necessary to ignore simple supports or opposes, while other images may be fatally flawed with many voters ignoring an important criteria. It should be stressed that the more justification you provide with a vote, the less likely it is to be overlooked or discounted, but I don't think there will ever be a simple/automated way to find consensus for all scenarios. It will always be necessary to look at each case individually. Diliff   | (Talk)   (Contribs) 06:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well put. --YFB ¿ 16:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second opinions requested 

message: Two delist noms are in the suspended nom section. Anybody care to fix that? --Janke | Talk 07:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The delist nominations can also be suspended. In both cases, higher res versions are pending. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 08:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, didn't realize that. Thanks, --Janke | Talk 18:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: np >_< Jumping cheese Cont@ct 06:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mixed up 

message: Please be careful with astronomy pics.  Featured picture: :Image:Sun%2C_Earth_size_comparison_labeled.jpg was deleted because the SOHO project, like the ESA as a whole, follow a non-commercial license for the reuse of their images.  This is the second time I can recall seeing a featured astronomy pic deleted for having an incorrect license.  Dragons flight 14:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I note that Davepape raised this concern during the nomination but it wasn't addressed before Raven4x4x promoted it. Should probably have ended up in the Suspended Nominations category until that was clarified, but we all make mistakes. I'll make a point of checking licences for astronomy images. Cheers for the heads up, Dragons flight. --YFB ¿ 14:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Even NASA pics can't really be trusted anymore since they now work with outside companies who may or may not have their pictures released under PD per government regulations as is the case with pictures taken directly by NASA (with the exception of their logo and all other gov logos but that's a different issue) Cat-five - talk 16:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: On NASA sites there is often a notice saying they are PD unless stated otherwise. On such sites they point out when there are restrictive licenses. On other sites it is less clear. (H) 05:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Be careful with astronomy pics 

message: We have three suspended nominations that have been around for over a month, and they all seem to have been neglected. Austrian Barrel Organ and Mt. Rainier seem to be waiting on higher resolution images, but both photographers haven't edited since May. Emblem of the Papacy was nominated in March, but had some form of accuracy dispute and hasn't had any new comments since April. I'd like to finally do something with these if I can; for the first two I'll ask the photographers if they're still editing, but I'm not sure what to do about the Papal emblam. Any suggestions? Raven4x4x 06:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the Emblem of the Papacy has been sitting there for quite a while now. Although almost all the voes are for support, the accuracy issue still remains. How about placing a link at the top of the page asking for more feedback?!? As for the other pics awaiting higher-res versions, how about placing a time limit on them? For example, after one month (or however months the community decide upon) and a high-res version is not uploaded in that time period, the pic is automatically reopened for delisting voting based on the low-res version. Thoughts? Jumping  cheese 01:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suspended noms 

message: While I was browsing around the USGS Astrogeology Martian Hemisphere Point Perspectives website I discovered a higher resolution image of Valles Marineris than the current FP of the same subject.  Actually it is an identical image, but for some reason the USGS website has a larger image than the NASA website.  I realize that I could upload a higher resolution image and link to it through the "Other Versions" field, but wouldn't it be better to have the higher resolution image more prominent?  I'm hesitant to step on anyone's toes because it is linked to so many other pages and maybe my idea of "better" would be considered by some to be a step in the wrong direction.  Is there some sort of standard in dealing with these types of situations?  Please let me know your opinion. Cacophony 09:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. If the image is essentially the same as the current FP but clearly of higher quality, you can just upload the higher quality version over the current one and optionally post a note here. If the image is not essentially the same and clearly of higher quality, you can suggest replacement via Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates#Nomination_for_delisting. Cheers, --KFP (talk | contribs) 19:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replacing a FP 

message: Why was this nomination moved to "suspended nominations"?  Debivort's copyright concern appears to have been a joke.  There are obviously no copyright problems with this standard White House release. Chick Bowen 04:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind--dealt with. Chick Bowen 04:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The joke wasn't that obvious, so I understand the misunderstanding by the user who closed the nomination. ^_^ Jumping  cheese 04:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  D'oh! Next time, more smiley faces. Debivort 05:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lyndon B. Johnson taking the oath of office 

message: There is about a 1% discrepancy in the number of featured pictures at the moment. See WT:FP#Discrepancy in the featured picture count for more information. Please comment over there. MER-C 13:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrepancy in the featured picture count 

message: Hi all -- I'm having a bit of a problem with an anonymous editor on the article Rule of thirds, who keeps editing the article to include an unsourced statement, on the grounds that he believes it's true without citing a credible reference.  His reasoning amounts to unsourced speculation and/or original research. Despite explaining why his statement cannot stand on the talk page, he is being insistent, and if I revert again I will be violating 3RR.  I would appreciate it if some of the regular participants here could take part in the discussion there, even if it's to disagree with me.  Thanks... -- Moondigger 16:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with Rule of Thirds article 

message: I'm tempted to suggest one more picture of mine: :Image:EileanDonanInsideView.jpg - however, I've come to the realisation that I'm a poor judge of my own photographs. Anyone think it's worth nominating? Adam Cuerden talk 23:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This type of question is exactly what Wikipedia:Picture peer review is for.  Admittedly, it's not the most watched page on the project, but you might get the feedback you need there.  Enuja 23:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Might is the key word. I put an image up there three weeks ago and have not had a simple comment on it - good, bad or otherwise. Several other pics have suffered the same fate. AUTiger » talk 00:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying don't nominate, but I think there may be some complaints about composition and the completely blown out sky. If in doubt, give it a try. --jjron 09:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the blown out sky would probably be a big complaint, as well as some purple fringing in the upper left. It would be a tough nomination to promote, if you ask me. --Tewy 17:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quick opinions 

message: I have two proposals for steps to be taken whenever a FPC nomination fails:
:(1) Per the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Christus (mosaic at Ravenna), the image's page can have some kind of indication that the image was nominated for FPC but did not pass.  This is done for articles that fail to pass a nomination for Featured Article status.  If the concern is that putting a "This picture failed" tag on the image page is degrading to the photographer or uploader, then perhaps a milder approach is to use the tag only for images that might conceivably be re-nominated, so that it's easy for potential nominators to first review the discussion of the original failed nomination.
:(2) After the nomination fails, keep the discussion of the failed nomination on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates for another week or so.  Right now, the discussion disappears as soon as the nomination fails, and then an interested party has to poke around in the archives to see what the last few comments were and what the admin's comments (if any) were.  
Thoughts? Spikebrennan 20:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * I agree there should be a tag, if only for the convenience of nominators. Failed FA and GA noms get such a tag, I believe. BTW, spike, the discussions don't disappear, they are simply archived, eg: Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/July-2007. Debivort 22:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: * I disagree for the reason you stated. People, even though they shouldn't, judge a photo which has failed a FPC nom as worse than if it had never been put up. I remember a while ago (maybe half a year) the people over at the water article were debating what to use as the lead image. And one of my photos was suggested, but the fact that it had previously failed a FPC nom was used as a bad point about it. People can relatively easily see the file links history with a FPC subpage in it and see that it has previously been nominated IMO --Fir0002 22:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree with Fir. Just hit control+F and type "featured picture candidates". However, consensus can change and renominations on possibly feature-worthy images are OK after a reasonable period of time. MER-C 12:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  FWIW, I think a tag could be made quite polite and even encouraging of renomination, that said, it is more work for the already over-burdened closers, and that is my source of ambivalence. What happened to the bot effort? Debivort 14:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, but the volume is too low for a bot to be useful at the moment (hint, hint) - it would be quicker to do it manually at the moment.  MER-C 12:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Debivort, I am aware that the discussions are archived, but simply keeping them on the main FPC page for, say, a week, under a category called something like "Recently closed nominations" would enable one to find the information all in one place.  Alternately, "Recently closed nominations" can simply be a link to the appropriate section of the archive page. Spikebrennan 10:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The latter idea - a link to the the current archive page is a great idea, but I won't support making the FPC page longer and even clumsier to load unless the reason was really compelling. Debivort 14:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: I would not leave the images an extra week.  Even on a high speed line, this page is huge and sometimes slow.  I would like a link to recently closed nominations placed on the page, just for ease of use.  I do like the idea of adding a "this was a FPC" box to the image; for our purposes it is easy to tell from the "this image is linked from" section of the page, and I don't think it is useful anywhere else.  Zakolantern 16:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: A link to recently closed nominations would be better than leaving them for a week, I also support the "FPC box" idea ;) 8thstar 16:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Fir in that you can simply view the "File links" section of the subpage to see if the image had been nominated before. I also agree with others that creating a new section would make an already large page huge. I understand the reasons for these proposals, but they're just not needed at this time. --Tewy 17:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Fir.. a permanent "failed fpc" box will only act as a disincentive, and be unfair on photographers who have their works nominated by others, only to have the image tarred with a 'not good enough' tag. It's not like reviewers of fpc's have any problem working out which images have failed previously anyway. —Pengo 07:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Oppose links tag per Fir0002 and others; the file links section is sufficient. And there's already a link to the recently closed nominations on the FPC page, although I must say it's not all that obvious (at the top of the page in the list of links in the blue box on the right-hand side, it's the third bottom one called Featured picture archive; it goes straight to the current month). --jjron 08:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Results of a failed FPC nomination 

message: Aguest 9 picture of the day
that aint featured --Childzy (Talk|Contribs) 23:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. The person who wrote that has been notified. I just haven't gotten around to doing a new one yet. howcheng  {chat} 23:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whats going on here?