Talk:Turkey/Archive 3

message: That a main pages exist that cover a subject with more detail, doesn't justify a deletion. If we were to apply this logic, we would delete entire section in most articles in Wikipedia because there are always other articles which includes them. Fadix. 19:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Existances of main pages to clarify and not a pretext for deletion. 

message: Can someone explain what this is?  Google gives exactly one hit to "komara keran" and that's this page.  Thanks. --70.247.196.108 10:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This appears to be scribbling in Kurdish which appeared transiently on the page.  Search engines examine Web pages on a schedule, and don't always have the latest version.  In this case, Google's crawler happened upon a version that wasn't live for very long. --Macrakis 18:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Komara Keran

message: Hey guys, I have added some nice photos of Turkey and hope to everyone like them much. I'm requesting that please someone don't remove them and upload the oldest ones. Some people are want that Turkey seem like old and ugly country to everyone by images. Please be understanding! Thanks
:Sorry but i've reverted it. The images in the city section should represent the whole city. People walking in a street doesnt show istanbul, or a train doesnt show Antalya if you know what I mean. Also there were just too many images in the gallery section, should be no more than 16 at the most. Thanks, --A.Garnet 16:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Images of Turkey

message: No one should take this personal. this is not about opening wars, etc. It is just about the facts. This is not my personal definition. Even I might NOT agree with the definition, but I Just trying to keep up with the facts. There is a legal definition of minority in Turkey. It is very detailed, very consize and it has been accepted internationally since the end of WWI. --tommiks 18:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The position of tommiks is utterly unacceptable: the fact that the Turkish republic or the Greek republic do not recognize the existence of other minorities than the few ones included in the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 doesn't mean in anyway that no other minorities, as defined by international standards, do exist in both countries, like Kurds, Macedonians, Albanians and so many others. A limitation of the concept to the official definition in this article and the ones about Demographics of Turkey or Demographics of Greece would make wikipedia a mere appendix of the booklets distributed by Greek or Turkish embassies. Some contributors obviously would like it, as the numerous ill-advised and ill-meaning modifications on some related pages prove, but it would make wikipedia useless and without any interest for its users who, in the end, are those for the benefit of whom we are trying to write good articles and make them better if we can. Not the Deep Turkish State nor its Greek equivalent (Christodoulos & co.). --Pylambert 22:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: User Pylambert and tommiks at heart seem to be saying the same things. I also believe the value of an encylopedia is in it's collection of verified information, not simply personal views. However, tommiks wants to have a seperate page to discuss these issues. It seems there is a lot of info at the demographics of Turkey link.  The idea behind a seperate page seems to work well, and generates a special discussion page. Why argue?--64.185.32.5 00:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I don't know who you are but Kurds are minority in Turkey. Of course people that live in the land of Turks must and only be called as Turkish. There is Kurdish in language part and it is enough. We are accepting the minority thing, don't expect more from us. If we leave you on your own, you would want the whole country! Deliogul 11:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of minority. 

message: On the Armenian page for Saint Mesrop Mashtots, it is listed that he was the inventor of the historic Albanian or old Azerbaijani alphabet. Since when was Mashtots the inventor of this alphabet? On the same page, it says that Mashtots was the inventor of the Ethipian alphabet too, which is hilarious.
:In any case, there is no reason to refer to other pages which have no relation to Turkey. Your comments about the Armenian saint should be written in his page. Petros The Hellene 11:13, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenian Propaganda 

message: Seems like this article should mention Turkey's (fill in NPOV verb that won't piss anyone off) of Cyprus and occupation of whatever percent. Someone recently added a like about the babaric invasion; I took out 'barbaric', changed it to occupied, but someone deleted it all and said take my issues here. I really don't support Turkey, Cyprus, or Greece, here but the history of Turkey should mention this event, no?--Chinawhitecotton 03:56, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has to be written keeping in mind WP:OWN and WP:NPOV. It isn't owned by Turks. -- Paddu 11:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cyprus 

message: I see that in the Foreign Relations section of the page, the following comment occurs:
Some of these conflicts extents to republics boarders from historical and cultural bounds that link to issues originated at dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
What does this mean? I think this needs to be clarified, and I find my grasp of English insufficient to divine the true meaning of this sentence.
Hinakana 13:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grammar 

message: i would like to edit some recomentations for those who would like to impove the article a bit.
firstly i want to say about an editing mistake in the Turkey article:not 7% of turkey is in the balkans,but the 3%.it is easy for everyone to see what is correct.
mainly i want to refear to all the articles that mention Kemal Ataturk and i though that there is no more appropriate discussion page than this one.
someone should add some comments about past and modern kemalism.also someone should make some referenses to similar -isms,e.g. stalinism.maybe most turks will think that what i am writing is offensive to them and i am saying that simply cause i am greek(which i am,but it is not the case).
kemal ataturk created a country attached to his profile.the same did stalin.but u will not see such similarities in any modern european state.if someone goes to turkey will immediately see portraits of kemal in every street.their is no turkish school that does not have a huge picture of kemal above the main entrance(especially in the east of turkey,where the assimilation policy has not come to an end).same things did stalin also:portraits and statues of himself in every place of the soviet union.i am not sure if anyone understands what i mean:all the nations in europe had great politicians...all the nations of europe had a historic figure who they regard as the founder of the state...but in NO european nation this figure has become the ultimate national symbol nor his/her name has been considered 'sacred' in any sense.i cannot find the most suitable word in english,but what i mean in greek it is said 'προσωπολατρεία'>'prosopolatria'>'figure adorness'.it is an old policy of making the leader seem superior by his people.and surely it is NOT an idea that can fit in modern world.similar cases in other places in the world include:hitler,mao in china,that president of a turkmenistan(sorry,i cannot remember his name)who declared his birthday turkmenistan's national holiday,and that ex dictator of the ivory coast that made his hometown capital of his country.in the same way,in turkey,everything connected to kemal is considered 'sacred' in a sense,and people there tent to forget that he was just a polician involved in 'bad incidents'(like any other politician,in any part and in any era of the world),that include ethnic cleansing,genocide,civil attrocities(just remember that when he was in power everyone who was praying in arabic was excecuted),and forced asimilation.
maybe there should be an article including all these definitions:stalinism,hitlerism,kemalism,maoism
cause,in case some people do not know it,according to kemal's theory,the turks were superior than the other nations and it is their achivement the sprent of the world' civilasation.i would like to see any turk saying that he did not say that thing!!!!
looking to see comments about that and want them to be in a polite and not insulting way.just facts...
thanks--Hectorian 12:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's much better to put Kemal's picture everywhere instead of a caliph or a beardy sultan picture. Do not blame the modern guy, he tried to convert Turkey to an ally of Europe. Think about it; it's good for you my Greek friend. If he hadn't done this, now in 2006, Ottoman empire was definitely in war with UK, USA, especially Greece etc etc ;). "Peace at Home, peace in the world" he says  --JohnEmerald 10:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Who oppened this headline! Was Ghazi Mustafa Kemal Pasha your family friend? Where do you find the right to call him just Kemal! Please be polite! With respect, Deliogul 15:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mostly about Kemal 

message: Please don't change the images of Turkey, cause it's my galerry.
The new gallery addition looks beautiful and I'm sure someone put some time and effort into adding it.  I expect it will present problems in its current form.  Per WP:NOT, the proper location for an image gallery is Wikimedia Commons.  None of the images I checked contained copyright information and one image had text that appeared to come from a travel agency.  Wikipedia copyright bots will probably remove this material in a few days unless new versions with better copyright data replace them.  I suggest creating the new gallery within Wikimedia Commons and linking to it from various language editions of Wikipedia. Regards, Durova 03:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont know why, but some images I uploaded some weeks ago had been deleted without any warning. I placed the source and the copyright tag and it seems it was ignored. I know 100% that the images were free to use because wowturkey.com and worldturkey.com allow their pictures to be used anywhere as long as the name remains on the picture. Some of the recent pictures included by the new user are from wowturkey, the appropriate tag should be added to these images to say they are free for use. Unfortunately i never know which is the correct tag. --A.Garnet 18:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gallery concerns

message: After checking the edit history of user 81.212.172.97 due to POV changes made to other articles, I checked the edit of this article on 1/28/06 by that user. I'm not involved with it's editing and have no factual information, but I would suggest someone vet the accuracy of the changes made to population statistics and examine added characterizations to determine possible POV bias. Ben Kidwell 20:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible POV edits? 

message: I was looking through Germany's frontpage, and it mentioned its own genocide many times. Why don't I see one refrence in the front page of Turkey about the Armenian genocide? 
 Chaldean 18:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The same reason Hamlet isnt mentioned in the history of Denamrk :p--KSK 16:40, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germany's frontpage and Turkeys

message: Merhaba, There is a dispute ongoing in the article Iranian peoples. Some Pan-Iranist users are changing the defintion of Iranian peoples (an unknown and not widely used term) from its linguistic meaning to linguistic, cultural and racial issues. According to their wrong defintion many people are labelled as Iranian, including parts of Turkish population. If you have time and are interested in the issue I ask you to join the discussion. Thank you very much.
Diyako Talk + 22:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Turks are coming from a different genetic background and have no connection with Iranians. Iranian nationalists are really funny. I'm afraid, they will soon start to argue that Osman Ghazi and Atilla were Iranians too :) With respect, Deliogul 23:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Iranian peoples]]

message: As you all know, there is no region or province named "Kurdistan" in Turkey. However, some Kurdish nationalists on wikipedia are trying to coin the term "Turkish Kurdistan" for political purposes. Please join the discussion on Talk:Turkish_Kurdistan, your comments would be appreciated. --ManiF 09:23, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Turkish Kurdistan" 

message: Please support deletion of this category Kurdistan. Thank you very much. --Kash 17:52, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hi 

message: Wouldn't a map of either Seljuks or Ottomans on the history section be nice? We should do it.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Deliogul, please read WP:NPA. Your comment appears to violate the policy. Thanks! -- Paddu 11:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map on the History section 

message: I will reorganize these links because there is a bunch of stuff under the heading "Other Web Pages." I start by adding four headings (to put some of these links under): "Tourism," "Economy," "General" and "Newspapers in English."
I will also add some links to the "Newspapers in English" list.  
Any suggestions or comments are welcome... So cool 07:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: EXTERNAL LINKS

message: I guess the name of "Turkey" was changed to "Turkiye" in English many years ago...Inanna 23:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Name 

message: User:Globo is inserting anti-TRNC content into Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (diff). I'm not sure about the neutrality of his edits, so if you're interested in the topic, please come and join the discussion. -- ran (talk) 22:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus 

message: I am back, I guess I lied, go figure...
Can this author be linked to the article?
Is there a list of notable Turks?
Ferit Orhan Pamuk (born on 1952-06-07 in Istanbul, Turkey) is a leading Turkish novelist of post-modern literature. His long-standing huge popularity in his homeland dipped in 2005, but his readership around the globe continues to grow. As one of Eurasia's most prominent novelists, his work has been translated into more than forty languages. He is the recipient of major Turkish and international literary awards.
In 2005, lawyers of two Turkish professional associations brought criminal charges against Pamuk [1] after the author made a statement regarding the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1917 and the massacre of 30,000 Kurds in Anatolia. The charges were dropped on 2006-01-22.
 Thanks!
--Tom 14:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there's a List of Turks article. And Pamuk is already mentioned via the Turkish literature article. Since the Turkish lit. article is already linked in the Culture section, I don't really see any reason to. But I guess if you see a place where he should be mentioned, don't hesitate to be bold. —Khoikhoi 18:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As much as I appriciate your enthusiasim, this talk page supposed to be for discussing the article Turkey. Article Orhan Pamuk has its own talk page. --Cat out 22:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh? That's what we were discussing, the addition of a mention of Pamuk in this article. —Khoikhoi 03:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Orhan Pamuk]]

message: There are 28 pictures in the gallery, this seems too much to me. I propose we place 8 general images of the 8 largest cities in the Cities section, then reduce the size of the gallery to maybe 12 good pictures.
I'm open to suggestions. --A.Garnet 18:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While at it, it would be better to have pictures of varying things in the different cities, e.g. something like a photo showing natural scenery, a photo showing skyscrapers, a photo of a historic building, one showing something about the culture, one about the climate, etc. so that the gallery can cover everything this article is about, instead of photos that just show skyscrapers in each city, for example. -- Paddu 14:28, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Most of these pictures can be uploaded at commons, and added to galleries at commons:Category:Turkey and its subcategories/articles under it. -- Paddu 14:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought for the cities section, it would be better to have general views of the cities, and then in the gallery section at the bottom, more specific pictures of architecture or geographic sights could be added. --A.Garnet 14:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many pictures in gallery 

message: These photos are tagged with different licences, and hence seem to misrepresent their copyright status. Please discuss about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Turkey#Photos from wowturkey.com. Thanks! -- Paddu 14:28, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photos from wowturkey.com

message: Looking at several country articles, many have similar pictures to showcase their economic prosperity( or capitalistic tradition?). It seems like a great addition especially considering the orientalist view many people (especially europeans) have when it comes to Turkey. Istanbul has the seventh largest number of skyscrapers in the world  according to the Global cities study ( ranking between Tokyo and Rio de Janeiro)
There's a problem in getting a proper image because most of its highrises are scattered throughout the city (mainly the Levent and Maslak districts), not bunched together like in say New York or Seoul.
But I think this particular one does a decent job of capturing most of those in at least the levent.--Kilhan 06:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Kilhan, problem is that picture is grey and smoggy - i'd prefer one of these two:


--A.Garnet 17:40, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I think its a stunning image, especially the light rising above the towers. Anyway, we are having problems with wowturkey images at the moment. It seems they are not free enough for Wikipedia, User:Paddu says wowturkey has to change its policy to make the images completely free, otherwise they will be deleted. I've contacted metb82 to have a word with their admins but not received a reply yet. I would, but my Turkish is not so good. --A.Garnet 18:42, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please dont remove the image of the skyscrapers in Istanbul

message: i removed most of this paragraph about the eighties as its just
a collection of names and doesnt really add anything of worth to the article.
It basically goes Party A was defeated by Party B, whose leader Mr C became Prime minister. However Party B's government collapsed
two years later and was defeated by a coalition of Party A and Party D, ...blah blah''
Just confusing to the average readerKilhan 16:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats nothing. Its just an anonymous kurdish editor who keeps on inserting something on "Kurdistan" being "occupied"--Kilhan 16:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Post world war 2

message: In the Administrative Divisions section, Konya and Adana, unlike Ankara, İstanbul and İzmir, are referred to as "Konya district" and "Adana District." We don't say that way when we are referring to cities here in Turkey, the name of the city is used. Like Ankara, İstanbul, Çorum -and not Ankara district, Çorum district, İstanbul district... Worse than that, actually, Wikipedia articles about Konya and Adana are entitled with that 'district' addition. This is something incorrect, I wanted to add it here since I'm a little bit new to WP and not quite sure how to tidy up the mess with those "districted" articles Maokan 23:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  X-Y-Z 'District'? 

message: From what I was told at User talk:Paddu#Ethnic groups in Turkey, I gather that there are a few more ethnic groups in Turkey (e.g. Assyrians) but these apparently number only in the thousands in Turkey so aren't mentioned in the article (after this edit -- ). Greeks, Jews and Armenians in Turkey also apparently number only in the thousands, but are mentioned due to their special status in the Treaty of Lausanne.
I guess it would be best to state that only ethnic groups with population more than (say) a hundred thousand are mentioned and give a list of all such ethnic groups, and then state specifically that Greeks, Jews and Armenians are recognised minorities in the treaty. Also, I wonder if we could get NPOV population figures for these ethnic groups (or various POV figures all of which give more than the cutoff, say 100,000) so that every deserving group gets a mention. -- Paddu 16:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of minorities 

message: I attempted to NPOVise stuff about Ottomon Armenian casualties during the World War I and the Turkish War of Independence in these edits but this was replaced with Armenian POV and subsequently removed (& re-added & re-removed & ...).
Once the POV edit war was over I tried adding my text that I believe to be NPOV in this edit but this was reverted with the edit summary and a message on my talk -- User talk:Paddu#Armenian relocation -- stating that no notable encyclopedia mentions this in an article on Turkey. It was also mentioned that this stuff is interesting only to some nationalist Armenians, and that this article is only about the "Republic of Turkey".
My position is this (as mentioned at User talk:Kilhan#Ottoman Armenian casualties):
#According to the well-cited article Ottoman Armenian casualties all POVs agree that hundreds of thousands of Armenians were killed, though the exact number and the cause of the deaths are controversial. This is definitely interesting to me, who is not an Armenian nationalist, and IMHO should be interesting to the majority of the readers of the English Wikipedia.
#When even the Turkish government accepts 800,000 Armenians were killed, I believe not mentioning the casualties is censorship.
#This article is IMHO not about "Republic of Turkey" but about "Turkey", or else it won't talk about prehistory, Ottomans, culture and geography of the region.
#The notable encyclopedia -- Encarta -- includes text on Armenian casualties in the years 1894–1923 (note my text only talked of 1914–1923) in this page -- .
Hence I think (probably a more NPOVised/corrected version of) my text should be added to the article. But I thought discussing here and arriving at a consensus would ensure all future POV changes to what was decided here can be dealt with easily.
PS: I appeal to people (of all POVs) not to give vent to their personal views of the sensitive issue and attempt to discuss in a neutral unbiased manner. Thanks! -- Paddu 16:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It simply isnt notable enough to be mentioned in an article about Turkey. The armenian relocation is featured prominently in Ottoman Empire and thats where it belongs - The Turkish republic was only established in 1923. Especially taking into account the current state of the article where centuries of East roman and Ottoman history ae summarized into just a couple of paragaphs. Ataturk who is the founder of modern Turkey and who's influence is more than far-reaching is given only a couple of sentences in the article. The Russo-Turkish wars, Siege of Constantinople, Balkan wars etc. are infinitely more significant than this issue and they arent even mentioned at all. There's no need to cram every titbit into this particular article - a reader interested in the detailed history of the region could simply read up  History of Turkey and also the Ottoman Empire and Byzantine Empire articles, which are linked to here.--Kilhan 22:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ottoman Armenian casualties]]