Talk:Femme fatale

message: Hey does anyone know when the term femme fatale was coined? 19th century France maybe? Grice 00:24, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Time of the term's creation

message: Maye West and Jessica Rabbitt are not really femme fatales.  They are sexual, but are they evil or murderous?  Nope, pure of heart.  I'm going to remove them.
: First, please sign your posts.  Second, a femme fatale does not have to be evil.  In many instances, most notably in Gilda and Chinatown, the femme fatale only appears to be conniving.  The manner in which she uses seduction is really the kicker - she is the catalyst that pulls the male character into the plot.  However, I do agree that some of these entries are questionable at best (e.g. Poison Ivy? Come on, why not include Cruel Intentions then?).  There are a lot of lolita films that do not employ "femme fatale" characters. - IstvanWolf 03:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As the article says: A femme fatale is a nexus of evil, whether it be her own, that of a lover, of a third party, or some combination thereof varies, but generally arises when a woman's traditional role as subservient lover comes into conflict with other goals. Thus, a completely moral woman may be a femme fatale, but this not how her lover(s) see it because they are blinded by their own goals. To emphasize this point, it would be useful to remove some of the earlier text such as "typically villainous".  Modus Vivendi 11:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it worth mentioning, then, that the term is often used now with a connotation of a woman so beautiful - and so stylised in her beauty - that she can corrupt men or make them incapable of judgment, without herself being corrupt? Faye Dunaway in Chinatown, Jessica Rabbit, Lauren Bacall in The Big Sleep - they're all considered "femme fatale" characters, but none of them are actually morally bankrupt. Maybe it's even worth saying that the term is now associated with a certain image, rather than character. Smoky eyes and red lipstick carry the association, even if the character herself is morally good. Now, enough of that rambling. Any thoughts? 86.40.222.10 13:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  questionable entries 

message: Was Cleopatra a villain who ensnared the hapless hero? I can imagine she was portrayd as such in a couple of movies, but that doesn't justify that the historical person should be labelled as such. The article Cleopatra VII of Egypt doesn't give support for her femme fatale-ness either. I remove her. / Habj 01:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Cleopatra is currently back in the list.  I agree that the historical Cleopatra wasn't a villain; for the most part, she acted to protect and promote Egypt, as a good monarch should.  Most, if not all of the evil deeds attributed to her were attempts to blacken her memory (and make Octavian Augusts look good for defeating her) after she was dead.  However, it you take the term femme fatale to refer to "a woman that's dangerous to love," it certainly fits when you consider what happened to both of the men she associated herself with, Julius Caesar and Marc Antony.  JDZeff (talk) 21:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleopatra 

message: I've eliminated Dominique Francon (from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead) from the list for several reasons: she is good, not villainous; she does not have "insatiable" sexual desire; she does not "ensnare a hapless hero." In short, she doesn't meet the criteria at all. LaszloWalrus 09:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dominique Francon 

message: I'm going to rework the introduction; it seems a bit POV to me. ("malign power of sexuality"?) ChrisWinter 23:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reworking the introduction

message: A big point of debate is the subject of Lilith, the mythological first wife of Adam before Eve. In most texts depicting Lilith, many point out that her only real crime against Adam and God was voicing her own opinion. She is sentenced to hell, and God creates a new woman for Adam in the form of Eve.
This part of the article needs a citation. There is little consensus as to where the Lilith myth comes from; many archaeologists and scholars of ancient mythology believe it to be a post hoc interpretation of a different myth, an example of syncretism, or the consequence of a mistranslation.
--Citation--
The above appears to be opinion Lilith is a Old Testement pre christianity character that is partially written out of Hebrew versions of the book of Genesis, post Christianity's middle age rise. Sumerian myths related to a Litith are about the same time as original Hebrew & Arameic texts. The main difference is that the Sumerian texts are unedited as the civilization changes and dies off prior to the western rise of Judaism and then Christianity both of which go through significant internal politcal changes during the periods from 100BC to 1800AD. Judaism goes through major repression during the 1000 to 1600 period and many changes are made to Judaic texts during the repression, by the now overwhelmingly Christian, European cultures. Witcombe  clearly references such changes and those text are a direct reference to Old Testatment inclusion of Lilith and the subsequent removal. Lilith's place in the bible changes as the need to highlight one figure (i.e. Mary via the Cult of the Virgin Mary) and other figures are marginalized or even removed to promote other figures. I have removed the verification and included external link to the verification. If you disagree feel free to remove the external link but please cite contrary sources that Lilith was added post hoc to biblical references.--Ffocuser 17:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lilith

message: I would say Carmen fits the description almost perfectly. 24.226.77.23 (talk) 05:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but you have to provide a reference--Taranet (talk) 18:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carmen 

message: The image :Image:Spirit - Oct. 6, 1946.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --06:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Spirit - Oct. 6, 1946.jpg

message: The devil in the Ninth Gate, night-elf archer of Warcraft 3, the lead character in Heavenly Sword, Lucia von Bardas, Dark Elves and Morene Strident in Kingdom Under Fire, Buki of the Sudeki, Selenia of Arthur and the Minimoys, Inara Serra of Firefly (see Firefly (TV series) ), Lara Croft of Tomb Raider, the sorceress appearing in specific episode of Skyland, the sorceress apearing in Ben10, the female caracter in The 5th element, Suki of Avatar, Willow of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the lead caracter of Tabula Rasa, princess Farah/Elika in Prince of Persia (Allies from the Prince of Persia series#Princess Farah), Jade of Beyond Good and Evil (Beyond Good %26 Evil (video game)), Alyx Vance of Half Life 2 (Alyx Vance), the female caracters in terminator:the sarah connor chronicles, ...
...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.246.174.158 (talk) 08:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Other femme fatales

message: Both dictionary.com and m-w.com have prerecorded audio files where the speaker pronounces the word 'fehm' fatale. Is there a citation for the pronunciation 'fahm' fatal being most common and in standard usage? I have indeed hear both pronunciations personally...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.105.5 (talk) 01:24, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation

message: "James Bond" isn't mentioned once in this article. TheListUpdater (talk) 01:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: I Can't Believe That...

message: This sentence bugs me a lot:
"The ideas involved are closely tied to fears of the female witch and misogyny[1] while, according the History of Television.ca, a Canadian website which outlines television's history, the femme fatale "remains an example of female independence and a threat to traditional female gender roles".[2]"
Besides having grammatical errors, it is incorrect. The citation is linked to History Television's website, which is a Canadian television station's website, not a website about the history of television. Since this is my first time here, I'm not going to edit it, but I thought I'd point that out for someone who is more comfortable to do so.Upsidedown i (talk) 06:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that should be removed.  Poorly written and poorly referenced are two big strikes. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 14:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: History Television

message: To demontrate that it is not "ridiculous" or "polluting" to say that Lilith is a femme fatale and a succubus here's some stuff by scholars with regard to Lilith being both:
"In Eastern tradition Lilith, as princess of the succubi is primarily a seductress of men" (Praz: 282)
"Lilith is the Semitic name for the beautiful and licentious unmarried harlot who seduces men in streets and field" - (Stephen H. Langdon Tammuz and Ishtar OUP: 74) Colin4C (talk) 19:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote was: "Lilith is a famous succubus that exists in almost every creation myth". See the bold? Lilith exists in every creation myth? :bloodofox: (talk) 20:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So why did you remove all of the sentence it if only a detail of it was unverified? Why then did you delete a whole section because part of one sentence was unverified? Please be constructive. If there was sentence in the wikipedia that said that "Obama is President of the United States and championship skateboarder of the world", I would either require citations for the last part "Obama is President of the United States and championship skateboarder of the world", or modify it to  "Obama is President of the United States.Fred Bloggs (2010) Presidents I Have Known: 110-12 I wouldn't just delete the whole thing and then accuse long-standing editors of the wikipedia of "pollution". If editors wanted to be nit picky the wikipedia would have been destroyed long ago by systematic mass deletions of unreferenced stuff editors were not personally sure about. I think such an attitude is negative. Hard-copy encyclopedias also contain some duff information. Does one then burn them because of that? Wouldn't one rather ask for a new improved edition? Let's be constructive here. Colin4C (talk) 07:30, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lilith 

message: While it may be appropriate to append noinclude text, it should follow the same rules as any other. No need to shout or command. Naturally a well referenced fact would be worthy of inclusion, therefor, simply stating "Do not put something into this article" is not as accurate as "do not put this in unless well referenced". That is the basis of my last reversion to this article. Cheers My76Strat 04:25, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Noinclude text

message: The "In Popular Culture" section needs a major overhaul. For one, it reads as a list, without any specifics about what makes each character a femme fatale. It also seems that whoever wrote it has decided (without citation) that Femme Fatale now means simply "strong female" or "heroic female." At least half of the examples given are not in any way femme fatales. And that's not to mention the numerous spelling errors and odd sentence structure. 
Can someone go through that entry and rewrite it so that it's an article rather than a list, and remove all the false examples (which is over HALF of them)? Whenever I try to remove the false examples or simply undo the additions (which were made by a single user on Nov 2), it triggers it as vandalism. Why can false and uncited information be added in bulk so easily, but to remove it flags it as vandalism?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.24.162.214 (talk) 04:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Confusing Strong Female With Femme Fatale

message: : Britney Spears released an album in 2011 which is titled Femme Fatale in her album, the name Femme Fatale but also created as a superwoman in "Toxic" and "Womanizer" by Joseph Kahn.
The first half of this sentence is uninteresting (so she used the phrase, big deal) and the latter half is gibberish, so I removed it. —Tamfang (talk) 22:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Britney Spears 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Femme fatale. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090228103849/http://www.independent.co.uk:80/arts-entertainment/films/features/whatever-happened-to-the-femme-fatale-1633088.html to http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/whatever-happened-to-the-femme-fatale-1633088.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 05:37, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I would like to contend that some of the examples listed do not meet the qualifications of a femme fatale as defined by the article. Sean Young's character in Blade Runner is, if anything, the OPPOSITE of a femme fatale, a complete innocent incapable of manipulating anyone into anything. Similar is Isabella Rossellini's character in Blue Velvet. She is a victim of circumstance, and is more of a target for Kyle McLachlan's character than a seductress herself. Also, one of the 'femme fatale's' listed as played by Marion Cotillard - her character in Midnight in Paris - is not a femme fatale at all. The other examples I can not speak for as I either agree with them or are not familiar with them.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.201.233.177 (talk) 12:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  20th-century film and theatre 

message: Substituted at 15:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: How do you call a male  equivalent of the femme fatale? How about a link to it? Thy --SvenAERTS (talk) 03:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to the male equivalent of the femme fatale? 

message: > The phrase is French for "fatal woman".
Fatal woman does not convey the same meaning in English.  Better would be "deadly woman" or "lethal woman".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.90.50.2 (talk) 07:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  English Translation is poor 

message: Can you make like an example of femme fatale 
 Manic Pixie Dream Girls in film
Character	Portrayed by	Movie	Date	References Misshampleton (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit femme fatale page 

message: I’ve just gone through the Examples section; I’ve split a number of entries which combined different characters from different films played by the same actress, as it is the character who is the femme fatale, not the actress. I've also promoted the  Examples sub-section to a full section, and split the tables into Film and Television sub-sections, to make editing easier. I trust everyone is OK with that. Swanny18 (talk) 17:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples 

message: Over the past few months this article has become a clothes rack for for a long list of supposed examples added by a now-blocked user. user:Drmies  removed the list in October, and it has been restored without comment by an IP. I agree with the removal and am removing it again. Meters (talk) 07:09, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples section 

message: perhaps we should also have an article on the Homme Fatale aka the Femme Fatale's male counterpart, a seductive man who uses his handsome charm and smile to lure women into deadly traps, and dig in a bit deeper into what also makes them deadly Hewwoh (talk) 01:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A page on the Homme Fatale 

message: The new edits from that section were removed with the summary "rv. we already have excessive examples". I reverted them back. The new edits are focused on discussing more prominently the example of  Phyllis Dietrichson (portrayed by Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity). I believe any section discussing the era of classic film noirs (1940s and 1950s) needs to focus on this character, because it is a character which is considered an archetype of the femme fatale (this is sourced) and Double Indemnity is one of the most emblematic examples of a film depicting a femme fatale (the film is centered on the actions of the femme fatale, unlike other films where the femme fatale plays a more minor role). If you believe that there are too many examples in that section (and in other sections) than feel free to trim and improve the section/article (only two more examples were added by the new edits; the example of Phyllis Dietrichson was already there, the edits only expanded on it), but I don't think the whole revert was justified. Please discuss this here, rather than doing a full revert. The section is not perfect, but neither was it in good shape before the new edits. 2A02:2F0F:B110:B500:D59C:C464:85DB:941C (talk) 14:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Classic film noir era section

message: This section is unusually thin.  I came here to learn more only to find just about nothing.  The topic is fascinating, but poorly understood.  My guess is that the origins of the idea are the most interesting of all, yet there is nothing here. Viriditas (talk) 09:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Note, the quote by Joris-Karl Huysmans is getting at the roots of the idea by referring to the idea of ancient goddess cultures.  I was hoping to find this and other related material in the "Ancient archetypes" section instead. Viriditas (talk) 09:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Ancient archetypes