Talk:Operation Condor

message: I took the liberty to add the portuguease name of the operation (Operação Condor), since Brazil was also part of it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.122.192.80 (talk) 15:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portuguease name 

message: Any ideas on how this could be seperated into 3 entrires?
Does Operation Condor (Vietnam), Operation Condor (South America), and Operation Condor (Afghanistan) sound OK? Or perhapse we should go by date (e.g. Operation Condor, 1945, etc)? -- stewacide 20:25, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. I believe the location tells more than the place, perhaps better even more is to give the name of the conflict,  This page should just be an disamb. Pascal 21:53, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, does Operation Condor (Vietnam) and Operation Condor (Afghanistan) sound better, or Operation Condor (Vietnam War) and Operation Condor (U.S. invasion of Afghanistan) ? -- stewacide 08:03, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Why bother? The other entries are short. If and when they get expanded, they can be spun off to separate articles. -- Viajero 09:02, Sep 22, 2003 (UTC)
There is a movie of the same title by Jackie Chan, please make a "(movie)" page --Jack Zhang 18:28, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)
What do you think about adding the word illegal to this campaign? "was (an illegal) campaign of assassination... --Lyonlamb 00:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation 

message: Why did the CIA help Carlos to escape?
Ericd 21:59, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I too am confused by this. Kent Wang 07:42, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carlos the Jackal 

message: I eliminated the word "terrorists" from this line in the article:
"Their targets were leftist guerrilla terrorists but many are thought to be political opponents, family and other innocent people."
It is POV and the sentence without the word clearly explains the situation.Jersey Devil06:47, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it is certainly accurate that at least in Argentina, and also in China and Uruguay I believe, Condor government officials applied the word "Terrorist" to the JCR-type insurgents almost across the board. The few "excesses" they would admit on the part of government security forces would be attributed to the necessities of fighting a "terrorist" enemy -- in fact, Argentina's ruling Junta and its military were coached on all this (dirty war tactics, "anti-terrorist" publicity/propaganda) by French soldiers who had operated in Algiers. Of course, the Algerian resistance, with their record of anti-civilian bombing, certainly practiced methods that can be described as "terrorist" tactics (though the term "terrorist" itself is quite loaded); JCR movements tended to not practice such tactics, yet they were simply labeled "terrorists" by the Condor governments anyways, as an excuse for the brutal "dirty warfare" and state-terrorism carried out in the name of fighting them. And of course, many of the victims of the Condor governments, both within and outside of their countries, were not violent guerrillas, insurgents, or even JCR-affiliates. Many innocent civilians (unions, academics, protesters) were targeted by the Condor governments, in many cases (such as Argentina and possibly Chile and Bolivia) more so than members of JCR groups. 96.246.39.61 (talk) 08:13, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Terrorists 

message: I added a cleanup notice because the article has numerous and pervasive style errors that make it difficult to read. Steve Casburn 20:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup notice 

message: Just a place holder for news articles with info Mariano(t/c) 07:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: We should have a source for the "50,000 deaths" and "30,000" disappearances. CJK 22:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Terror archives. Tazmaniacs 23:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: But there is bibliography: Martín Almada, "Paraguay: The Forgotten Prison, the Exiled Country"
I agree that the totals here are very bad. 60,000, which is stated in the lead seems to come from a Mexican newspaper's editorial page which is not valid source. There is a substantial number of books on this topic. I suggest someone go to a library and check a few books, even other encyclopedias for the statistics. It should also be mentioned that "disappeared" means killed. These people have been missing for 35 years now. They are likely dead and as we know, many had their bodies thrown into the ocean or destroyed. It is therefore important to also include the 30,000 "disappeared" in the final statistic used.(Axlescandy (talk) 19:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: Oeration Condor was an attemp to deter the democracy, no the marxism.
Do you really think that marxist tendencies were not the target of Condor Operations?
Of course that many ideologies ended criticising the Latin American dictatorships which made them all victims of the atrosious crimes that were comitted during that period. 
These are just some quotes from the 1977 material that the Argentine Junta distributed to be read in schools. This document was called "Cómo reconocer la infiltración marxista en las escuelas": "how to recognize marxist infiltration in school".
Lo primero que se puede detectar es la utilización de un determinado vocabulario que, aunque no parezca muy trascendente, tiene mucha importancia para realizar este "trasbordo ideológico" que nos preocupa. Así, aparecerán frecuentemente los vocablos diálogo, burguesía, proletariado, América latina, explotación, cambio de estructuras, capitalismo.
"The first clue that can be detected is the use of a certain type of vocabulary (...) That is how words like proletariat, Latin America, explotation, change of structures and capitalism may come up"
"Historia, Formación Cívica, Economía, Geografía y Catequesis en los colegios religiosos, suelen ser las materias elegidas para el adoctrinamiento subversivo. Algo similar ocurre con Castellano y Literatura, disciplinas de las que han sido erradicados los autores clásicos, para poner en su lugar a "novelistas latinoamericanos" o "literatura comprometida" en general."
"Histoy, Economics and Geography are usually the subjects in which most of subversive behaviours are taught. Something similar occurs with Lietrature, disciplin where classic authors have been disregarded to introduce new Latin American or compromissed writers".
In addition to this, if you look at the early victims of the Condor Operation, you can easy realize their background. Gustavo Inzaurralde, arrested in Paraguay on march 28th 1977 (Stella Calloni, "Los Archivos del Horror del Operativo Condor");  Jorge Ríos Dalenz, from the Movement of the Revolutionary Left of Bolivia (J. Patrice Mc Sherry, "The undead Ghost of Operation Condor"). It is also true that many victims in Argentina, for example, where part of the Peronistas organizations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iminsbila (talk • contribs).
:: Marxists like to use the term democracy, albeit with a different meaning than the common one. 105.12.0.137 (talk) 15:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Against democracy. 

message: {{WP:NPOV]] states we must be impartial and give the arguments on both sides. this article fails on both accounts, hopelessly, SqueakBox 19:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I read the article, it relies on the best scholarship out there, presented in a fair an neutral fashion. Please present examples of impartiality and/or arguments (that rise above what the NPOV policy calls "tiny-minority") and let's discuss the issue. Hobomojo 01:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

text: First, "dictatorship" is not a weasel word, but contrast with liberal democracy. Pinochet, Stroessner, Videla, Banzer, etc., were certainly not fond of parliamentarism. Second, to put a fact tag after the second sentence which stated that Condor involved the "assassination of numerous persons", when it involved at least 50,000 murders, is pushing POV. Third, the source is in the next sentence, given by Martin Almada's book concerning the terror archives discovered in Paraguay. You could find a better way to push your POV than starting such low edit warring. Cheers anyway, each one goes his path, do not worry for that! (it's only politics, and real politics don't take place on Wikipedia) Tazmaniacs 03:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Finally, Hobomojo is correct, in that if you really want to put a POV tag, you should explain on this talk page what is wrong. Putting a tag without any explanation is not the correct way to proceed, I'm sure you are aware of that. Have a nice Wikying though! Tazmaniacs 03:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: SqueakBox: First, you need to take a look, again, at WP:NPOV, particularly the part about "tiny minority". As I read your edits here and elsewhere, you seem to disregard this so you can push your own POV. Second, read WP:NPOV carefully, and note the use of the phrase "all sides" not your preferred "both sided". Issues are complex, with multiple perspectives, and your formulation belies a partisan political agenda. Third, your use of "Latino politics" fairly well demonstrates that you have not a clue about which you speak. Fourth, if you think "this reads like a western leftie history" you shoud read some of the solid research coming out of the countries who suffered under these dictators. Fifth: "Dictator"   1. A ruler or governor whose word is law; an absolute ruler of a state.  2. A person exercising absolute authority of any kind or in any sphere; one who authoritatively prescribes a course of action or dictates what is to be done. (from the OED). Pretty well fits the bill. Sixth, I'm reverting your edits.Hobomojo 04:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

text: You do have a POV not only on this article but in your other edits as well. Control the language and you control the debate, and that is what you are trying to do by floggin NPOV to your advangage at a disservice to Wiki readers. But I'll compromise on Dictator, though weasel word it is not. Unable to read the OED definition? Fine, but I'm putting back "authoritarian" and the reference to assasinations which you blanked without any support or justification. I'm also removing the NPOV flag. This article had settled down to a consensus version until you poked your head in with your agenda. Other than the word "dictator" you have offered no examples of POV. Raise your objections and we'll discuss them. Don't use Wikipedia as your political platform.Hobomojo 02:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tagged 

message: Cut from intro:
*...both to deter democratic influence and ideas disseminated in the region and 
By "democratic" does this mean Socialism and/or Communism? I'm aware that movements to take economic or political freedom away from the people, and concentrate it in the hands of an unaccountable elite, are often called "democratic". Hitler was "democratically elected" (technically, at least). 
Are we trying to say that the "will of the people" was being thwarted by the right wing, or simply that the governments were being very repressive toward their opposition? That is, are we "taking sides" by saying that one kind of politics is good and therefore should not be suppressed? --Uncle Ed 16:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characterizing the opposition 

message: From the introduction:
The systematic counter-terrorism aimed both to deter democratic influence and ideas disseminated in the region and to control active or potential opposition movements against these governments. This organized counter-terrorism caused an unknown number of deaths, due to the covering up of the different governments involved.
Now, this is majorly WRONG, the TERM IS NOT _COUNTER-TERRORISM_ but the CORRECT TERM IS _COUNTER-INSURGENCY_ or maybe STATE TERRORISM, but the "COUNTER-INSURGENCY" being the correct pc term in the military jargon and the COUNTER-TERRORISM being totally out of place and not even of the subject, being term and matter of totally different significance.
Regards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.248.159.240 (talk) 03:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Uncorrect. The militaries claim they were responding to a "terrorist threat" (i.e. the "Communists"). They're was no insurgency (no terrorists either, but that's another problem). Tazmaniacs 13:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nope, there was terrorism in South American countries and this was part of the pretext of at least some of the coups, although left-leaning commentators like to ignore this completely. 41.146.21.51 (talk) 10:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  TERMS !!! IMPORTANT 

message: I've added a POV tag. The source that I added, but was subsequently removed, is from a researcher who has actually has studied the terror archives in Paraguay. She makes mention of the estimates of human right organizations, that are fastly different than those provided by Castro apologist Stella Calloni.   Almada's book does not give any numbers afaik, see his website. Intangible2.0 17:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only a few hundred of people were killed? That seemingly extreme right-wing, pro-death squade estimate does not appear to enjoy scholarly consensus. El_C 17:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: IT is a conservative estimate, the researcher herself indeed thinks the number to be higher. But more research is needed to give more credence to her claim.  Note also that the terror archives are related to Stroessner's Paraguay in general, and not Operation Condor in particular. Stroessner already came to power in 1954, long before Operation Condor was established. Intangible2.0 18:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. Any more thoughts on this before I remove these dubious sources, one which does not even mention a tally. Intangible2.0 23:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Intangible2.0, you are mis-reading the source. The sentence is: "Human rights groups in the region have estimated that Condor commandos "disappeared" hundreds of persons in cross-border operations...." and goes on to list disappearances of Uruguayans in Argentina, etc. (emphasis added). Condor was domestic too, not just cross-border. Official figures from the Rettig report, the reconciliation commission for Chile, give a conservative figure of 2,279 in Chile , and the CONADEP report from Argentina place the number conservatively at 8,960 in Argentina.. These are only two of the Condor countries, and leave out Paraguay, Brasil, etc. Hobomojo 03:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Where in those reports you cited does it mention that these figures should be attributed to Operation Condor. If it does not mention that, than those figures you mention can not be entered into this article, because that would constitute WP:OR. What do you mean with Condor being domestic, not just cross-border? The figures that are currently in the article, include the period before Operation Condor was even established. Stroessner was already president of Paraguay in 1954, and the terror archives include figures from 1954 to the period Operation Condor was established. Intangible2.0 16:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  I have no problem putting cross-border in the current text. But that does not mean those other sources that are currently in the article are valid. Intangible2.0 16:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're making a specious argument not much different than those made by David Irving and Holocaust deniers. Condor was an integral part of the state repressive apparatus that included domestic and foreign assassinations. (If you don't understand "domestic" in this context, then we've got bigger problems). The very author you cite suggests the number is in the thousands. True, the Reconciliation reports, for Chile, for example, treat the period of Pinochet's dictatorship, but Condor is inseparable from his rule. As far as Stoessner goes, true he took power in 1954, but the records in the archive pertain to the entire region, not just Paraguay. If you have evidence that the figures cited include data from 1954 forward, or are skewed to the pre-Condor period, you should produce it, since that is not at all how I read the literature. Hobomojo 23:21, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag 

message: The number of dead from Operation Condor, seems way too high. For example up to 20,000 may have died under Videla and perhaps 3,000 under Pinochet prior to to Condor beginning. So where does the other 40,000+ come from. It seems unlikely that the dictatorships of Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay murdered anywhere near that many people. It definitely seem way too high. Does anyone have any breakdown of how many are supposed to have died in each of different countries. I have never heard of mass killing in any of the southern cone countries bar Argentina and Chile, so it does seem way too high. Stumink (talk) 15:11, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been wondering the same thing.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of victims 

message: It's un-clear what justifies mentioning Israel in the opening paragraph of a topic that has little-to-nothing to do with it.
#. The figures are simply false, which is not surprising considering their source. All of Israel's arms export during the 80's to all countries reached together 1B$ annually (for example, see here), so in no case "Israel earned an average of 1B$ a year" from arms export to the three mentioned countries alone in the late 70's and early 80's.
#. I doubt Israel was the sole arms exporter to these countries over this period or even the most important one. It's against Wikipedia:Neutral point of view to solely point out negatively to one random global player that acted the same as many other countries. 
#. In any case import of arms has little to do with Operation Condor that was an intelligence operation. And even if it was relevant, there is no justification to mention the arms import from one particular country in the opening paragraph. Ben tetuan (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Joao Goulart is listed as a Brazilian leader on the targets of Operacao Condor. However, the earliest date for the beginning was 1968. Goulart died in 1967.64.132.1.74 (talk) 17:53, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: He died in 1976, but as he was deposed by the military in 1964, his bizarre inclusion only shows yet again that this article is an unsalvageable mess that needs to be completely rewritten or deleted outright.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:47, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  How is Joao Goulart a leader if he was dead? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello; I think that should be pointed out that the leader was Henry Kissinger and/or members of the c.i.a, since they where the ones commanding the operation and the militars of every region following their plan (military and economically).
Thanks!
[[User:agustin6|agustin6]  —Preceding undated comment added 02:09, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand. Thanks. Inkerifi (talk) 19:34, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

text: Hello Agustin6 and thanks for your comments and for talking not reverting. Yes, "collaborate" more-or-less means "to help or assist". And the US did help and assist, so the article is not wrong to say so. Collaborate does not mean "to help or assist but take no part in planning, coordinating, financing, or training". I suspect you feel that the word "collaborate" wrongly assigns a junior role for the US, but that is to misunderstand the word. Have a look at the Wikipedia page "Collaboration". It means, according to that page and in the context of this, "two or more organizations working together to achieve a goal". It is a neutral descriptor that the US was involved, there is nothing about the word that precludes any of the actions of the US, which are detailed in the relevant section of the article. Maybe "instigator" would be more precise. Captainllama (talk) 01:23, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kissinger 

message: I propose removing the italics from all instances of 'Condor' per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Military history#Style of operation names. Any objections? Nick Number (talk) 21:21, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Nick Number (talk) 23:04, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italics 

message: יניב הורון  (are you stalking me? Yes, my ip is that one there, what is that about? I'm doing this just for kill-time, I don't really care about internet stuff, but it isn't fun if I have to deal with bullying on every edition I make) 
The editions have references sources; and I'm mainly translating the articles on spanish languages, with those references, so all this information are already on wikipedia articles.
Specially on this subject, there are sentences of jugdements, is pretty much clarified by the justice in Argentina (and in Spain), on Trials to the Juntas, which are now in prison by genocide and crimes against humanity  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agustin6 (talk • contribs) 02:11, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: courtesy ping to  —usernamekiran(talk) 17:27, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: GPRamirez5 (talk) hi; I don't want to make edits myself cause my english is not good enough, but about Eastern bloc aid to leftists governments, is there a source for it? or on which country did it happened?
My question is because I'm not aware of the situation in every country, but the "Eastern bloc aid" to leftists was part of the excuse for the coup and posterior genocide crimes used on the trials by the argentine Junta, and it was proved false (I copy:)
 During the Trial of the Juntas, the prosecution established that the guerrillas were never substantial enough to pose a real threat to the state and could not be considered a belligerent as in a war: "The guerrila had not taken control of any part of the national territory; they had not obtained recognition of interior or anterior belligerency, they were not massively supported by any foreign power, and they lacked the population's support"."El Estado de necesidad"; Documents of the Trial of the Juntas at Desaparecidos.org.
So, at least in Argentina, Uruguay, Chile and Bolivia, no foreign/soviet aid existed except on The Junta's version of the story
(and the target of killings, i.e. on Argentina supposedly an 80% of the dissapeared where Peronists, which cannot be labeled as leftists, maybe nationalists? idk.)
And, I wanted to ask you guys to add a section about the objetives of the Operation as a whole, I only can found info on Argentina's case (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Alfredo_Mart%C3%ADnez_de_Hoz article has good data about it, but I don't know where coud be info about the other countries); and that could be a good adition to make the article complete.
Regards!--190.194.214.51 (talk) 21:11, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant aid in a broad sense that includes favorable trade terms. The overthrow of Arbenz back in the 50s is considered to be a Cold War action even though he did nothing more than trade with the East. I understand your point, but acknowledging an excuse for anti-communist terror isn't the same as endorsing a justification.GPRamirez5 (talk) 00:57, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cold war/ Objetives of Op Condor 

message: Castello Branco died in 1967 and Costa e Silva died in 1969. In 1975 the president of Brazil was Geisel.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.215.22.89 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Costa e Silva and Castello Branco were both dead before the start of the Operation 

message: There is some contradictory data, sometimes even into one same section, in a few parts of the article (i.e. U.S. involvement, data known in a determinated year is corrected by new data known by declassified documents years later, etc)
--Agustin6 (talk) 20:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictory data in the article 

message: The grammar here seems to have a lot of mistakes. For example, at one point the article says, “Weakened Democracies: Operation Condor's reliance on violence and disregard for democratic processes made him lose public trust in institutions. This, along with the elimination of potential political rivals through disappearances and assassinations, hampered the development of strong democratic institutions in many countries.” who is “him”? Saturniapavonia (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  grammatical mistakes+unclear sentences