Talk:V speeds

message: These are all variables; should they really be V speeds? E.g., VS rather than VS?—Ben FrantzDale 17:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Italics?

message: User:Iancarter has added a tag suggesting that this article be merged with speed.
:no: V-speeds are a detailed and technical topic, and there's too much information here to be merged in a general article on speed — it would be like merging Lake Ontario into Lake.  David 01:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: but: both this article and the speed article are not too detailed and actually I was missing the V speed information in the speed article. You are correct, V-Speed is a technical aviation term but speed itself is also a physical property that should include all the different variations - it is where the non-expert would look first. (Lake Ontario is a specific lake while V-Speed is a variation of speed) However, I get your point - let's get some more discussion input... -- Iancarter 02:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I concur with the above; this article should NOT BE MERGED with "speeds".  V-speeds are not real velocities, but rather limitations on operations of an aircraft as indicated in KIAS.  VNE is a limitation, not a measurement of movement. Kob zilla 00:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with [[Speed]] article? 

message: As far as I can remember the subscripts are lower case.  It's Vfe not VFE in all (UK and NZ) flight training manuals and (US written) aircraft manuals.  Paul Beardsell 07:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's universally upper or lower.  I've certainly never seen Vne or Vd - these two, at least, are upper-case in all my reference books. Tevildo 23:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it could be considered an authority at least for US use, FAA Publications that I've read such as the Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3A) and the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (FAA-H-8083-25) both write with the subscripts in uppercase. My copy of the 2007 FAR/AIM (ASA-07-FR-AM-BK) also uses uppercase in the subscripts. I have generally assumed that lowercase is used when superscript isn't easily available to the person creating the document. Aaron Landry 22:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LOWER CASE subscripts 

message: I've seen reference to a "refuse speed", above which an aircraft is unable to stop before running out of runway. Anybody know what the V speed ID is?  Trekphiler 09:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To the best of my knowledge there isn't one.  We've always just used "Vrefusal" as the written form and called out "refusal" when we pass it on takeoff roll.Kob zilla 00:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I can't stop!

message: I propose that these other articles on specific v speeds be merged and redirected to this article.  Most of these articles are stubs.  This iformation is also much more useful together.  -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 20:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with various V-speeds 

message: Hi, I noticed the VNE paragraph mentions 'TAS' (I assume it's an abbreviation for True Air Speed?). If someone more knowledgeable could add the full version of this acronym at some point I think it would help make it clearer for us 'laymen'. Many thanks IE 20:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, TAS means what you said. I've removed the paragraph in question, though, because it was an unnecessary digression on aerodynamic damping, TAS/IAS ratio and so on, with no additional information on the Vne itself. Giuliopp 23:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vne Elaboration 

message: Upon first viewing this article, I noticed that many entries are repeated in the various sections. I'm wondering if a multi-column tabular format would enhance the presentation. For example, a line would be a specific entry (in alphabetical order), and columns would provide the name (Vx), definiton (Best angle of climb), Airspeed type (TAS, IAS, etc), and any other of the characteristics as currently noted in the article (specified by regulatory authority, etc). Jasmantle (talk) 00:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Presentation format into table? 

message: The information is now nicely ordered in a table, but it has two columns: "America" (FAA) and "Canada", is it possible to make a new column for ICAO, or merge it into the "Canada" column?
Stefanlinden (talk) 17:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  America and Canada 

message: Seems to me that the arrows aren't pointing to the correct locations.  For instance, Vfe would be the END of the white arc.  And Vne right on the red line.  And Vno the end of the green arc.
I'm a student pilot, so I admit I may be incorrect.  But it looks wrong to me.  I know it's direct from the FAA handbook, but I don't see how it's correct. W@ntonsoup (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well you are a good student, because your observation is entirely correct. That diagram did come from the FAA, but the arrows that label it are displaced and pretty much every one of them points to the wrong place. I think that in the interests of not confusing people that diagram ought to be fixed or removed. - Ahunt (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  The website(s) that are quoted as the source for this image is not available so it isn't possible to see exactly what the original image looks like.  However, the image on V speeds is clearly misleading and should be removed, at least until it is repaired.  Dolphin51 (talk) 23:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dolphin51: Thanks for taking care of that. - Ahunt (talk) 23:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I will see if I can get a good ASI photo and construct a better labeled image, - Ahunt (talk) 23:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the new picture.  I used the old one because I had cut it directly our of FAA material but the new one is much better. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 16:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The image is wrong?

message: User:GW_Simulations tagged this article on 21 Aug with a Globalize tag. In looking at the article I think he is right. V speeds are used everywhere, but the top table, due to its US and Canadian checkmarks, is rather US/Canada centric. In looking at the table I don't think it hurts to remove the checkmarks and make the article more international by doing so. This opens the list up to additions from other sources. I have made this change. - Ahunt (talk) 13:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My iniitial goals were to find the other sources of governmental defined v-speeds and compare them in the checklist.  I however could not find any other governmental sources to finish the project. Chrislk02 Chris Kreider 14:38, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem - if we find other countries we could just revert it! - Ahunt (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Globalization

message: I have been going though all the sources I can find and have referenced every V speed that I can, so far. The remaining uncited ones are all in the V_speeds#Other_V-speeds section and have been fact tagged. If anyone can cite any references for those remaining uncited speeds that would be great, otherwise eventually they will be deleted as unref. - Ahunt (talk) 01:24, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't checked to see if you have deleted unref-ed V-speeds but I do not think you should.  If we removed all uncited statements in WP a lot of correct statements would be removed.  May I suggest that the criteria for removing a V-speed or anything from WP are these:  (a) the statement is unref-ed AND either (b) you think it is wrong, and having said so, no one disagrees or (b) you know it to be wrong and you have said so on the talk page.  This corresponds roughly to accepted WP practice.  Paul Beardsell (talk) 21:26, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I managed to find sources for all of them, except where they were clearly duplicates of existing ones already in the other section. Finding sources has sometimes been a challenge but I don't see any that have been missed lately and it is worthwhile to make sure we have an accurate article. - Ahunt (talk) 22:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: Currently V1 is defined in the article thus:
:"Maximum speed during takeoff at which a pilot can safely stop the aircraft without leaving the runway.  Alternatively, the minimum  speed that allows the pilot to safely continue (to V2 takeoff) even if a Critical engine failure occurs."
My recently much improved understanding is that this is not (quite) true (enough), in that for most takeoffs there is a range of speeds which can be nominated by the pilot as being this speed.  The rules which place upper and lower limits on this speed are (1) Vmcg <= V1 <= Vr and (2) at V1 the required-distance-to-stop <= available-distance-to-stop and (3) at V1 the available-distance-to-stop >= required-distance-to-attain-V2.
I think the WP definition should reflect this information.  How about:
:The decision speed nominated by the pilot which satisfies various safety rules, above which the takeoff will continue should an engine fail.
Or:
:The decision speed nominated by the pilot above which the takeoff will continue should an engine fail.  Regulations mandate Vmcg <= V1 <=Vr and that at V1 the remaining available runway stop distance is longer that the distance required to stop and is also at least the distance required to reach safe takeoff speed with one engine inoperative.
Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While it maybe accurate, that is a rather long and confusing to the casual reader. How about the TC definition, which is the most straightforward: "Critical engine failure recognition speed" in the table and then a separate section below the two tables dealing with all these subtleties of V1 for anyone who wants to read more on the subject? I really think it needs a more detailed treatment than can be or should be done in just a table. - -Ahunt (talk) 13:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good sense.  I like a definition saying Critical engine failure recognition speed or takeoff decision speed.  And then a separate statement saying The decision speed nominated by the pilot which satisfies all safety rules, and above which the takeoff will continue even if an engine fails. Dolphin51 (talk) 22:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Lacking any objections in the last few days I have gone ahead and done that - see what you think needs to be added to make this correct. - Ahunt (talk) 18:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your re-work of the subject.  I will refine it a little by making mention of the influence of wing flap setting on V1, and removing mention of wind.  Runway wind component influences the permissible weight at takeoff, rather than having an independent influence on V1. Dolphin51 (talk) 22:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks good! I think we have the right approach here - keep the table text simple and direct and then explain things in the para below linked from the table. There is probably room for more explanation there, or variants used in different countries or airlines. I am interested to hear what Paul Beardsell has to say on this too when he has a chance to have a look at it. - Ahunt (talk) 00:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  V<sub>1</sub> new definition request 

message: The last sentence for VA says:  "The heavier an aircraft is loaded the faster this speed."
Now I'm not a pilot but I know a little basic physics.   Surely, by centrifugal force, the structural stress on an aircraft turning at a certain speed is increased when it is more heavily loaded, therefore this sentence should say:  
"When an aircraft is more heavily loaded, this speed becomes lower."
(If I've missed something obvious, please educate me.) Darkman101 (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is right as it is - as gross weight increases Va goes up, not down. All of these are pretty accurate explanations. - Ahunt (talk) 19:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: VA is determined simply as the speed at which the load factor at the stall is equal to the limit load factor.  Imagine two aircraft of the same type flying at the same speed but different weights.  The limit load factor for this type is 3.8.  Both aircraft are turning at 3.8G (about 75 degrees bank angle) but getting progressively slower.  The first aircraft to stall will be the heavier of the two; not the lighter of the two.  Therefore the heavier the aircraft, the faster is VA. Dolphin (t) 23:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

text: There is only one published value of VA and it is called the Operating Maneuvering Speed or simply the Maneuver Speed.  It is always the speed appropriate to maximum takeoff weight.  There is an anomaly here.  Pilots believe that if they fly at a speed equal to the published value of Maneuver Speed the aircraft will stall before reaching limit load factor, thereby protecting the structure from being overloaded.  If the aircraft is at a weight less than the maximum takeoff weight that won't be true.  At a weight less than the maximum takeoff weight the aircraft at speed VA will be capable of achieving a load factor greater than the limit load factor.  However, because the weight is less than the maximum takeoff weight the loads and stresses on the aircraft structure will be less than if the aircraft was at maximum takeoff weight. Dolphin (t) 23:25, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite true. The only item I would add is that later Cessna POHs (post 1975) do give Va for lower weights than maximum gross weight. - Ahunt (talk) 14:22, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  V<sub>A</sub> - Doesn't centrifugal force in manoevering increase wing loading ? 

message: Another nitpick: the caption of the airspeed indicator photo reads "... Vne –  i.e. the speed beyond which the airframe will be overstressed." But in many (most? all?) general aviation aircraft, Vne is actually limited by aerodynamic instabilities or "flutter," not stress. Often the airframe is quite capable of taking stress beyond Vne. 204.11.73.2 (talk) 13:49, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it was wrong. Also the caption was far too long and detailed for a caption, even if it was right, so I have fixed it. Thanks for pointing this out. - Ahunt (talk) 14:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vne overstress 

message: Best glide speed (best/least gradient).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.22.25 (talk) 00:05, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you can find a reference we can add it. - Ahunt (talk) 00:30, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vg? 

message: V2 is defined as "The speed that vies an adequate climb angle from 35' agl to 400' agl (second segment climb), with an engine inoperative."  You cna figure out your V2 speed by 1.2 x Vs (some airplanes are 1.15 Vs) or 1.10 x Vmca
See "Notes on Flight Technique Analysis for Professional Pilots" by Les Kumpula for more information.—Preceding unsigned comment added by  155.31.55.240 (talk) 22:29, 25 July 2011
:What is the source of your definition?  I would say it is not the speed that ensures an adequate climb angle, but the choice of weight.  (If the aircraft is too heavy the climb gradient with the critical engine inoperative will be inadequate for the purposes of the second segment climb requirement, and obstacle clearance.)  In the US airworthiness standards for transport category airplanes (14CFR Part 25) minimum V2 is defined as a multiple of the stalling speed, exactly as you have described. Dolphin (t) 22:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  V2 

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