Talk:Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia

message: The first paragraph of this article calls its subject "Crown Prince Alexander II". I don't get it. If he were a monarch, or a deposed monarch, then I could see "King Alexander II". But how in blazes can he be "Crown Prince Alexander II"? The numeral doesn't belong there!
:There are other examples of deposed kings giving themselves regnal numbering, for example Crown Prince Nikola II of Montenegro.James Frankcom (talk) 20:07, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Citizen Aleksandar (Alexander) Karageorgevitch never was a king, let alone a deposed king. His father was a king at the time of his birth so technically he could have proclaimed the son a prince legally, but the proclamation should have been adopted by a regularly elected Assembly, which never occurred, as they were in exile and the Assembly could have only been elected in the country. Out of courtesy we may -- if we so choose -- call Alexander a "prince", nothing more than that.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.123.1 (talk) 01:17, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: I'm confused by the naming

message: Moved from RC Patrol:
:Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia - does anybody know the order of his wives?  An anon changed them, but I have no idea which is correct.  RickK 03:38, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: They're in the right order now. Added additional info. - Nunh-huh 21:32, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: misc

message: changed to serbia because there is no Yugoslavian country anymore. Croatia, SLovenia etc. do not recognize him as a crown prince.
:now that's just foolish. no country recognizes him as crown prince.--Jiang 21:16, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. It's back at Yugoslavia now. - Nunh-huh 21:21, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: It's not so much a question of who "recognizes" him, as it is a question of how titles work - or perhaps better put, it's athe fact that he once was recognized as Crown Prince of Yugoslavia but has never been recognized as anything of Serbia. His father was king of Yugoslavia, and he was crown prince of Yugoslavia. Then his father was deposed.  Deposed kings and their children in general retain their titles - even after the state they once ruled changes its form of government or even ceases to exist. What they don't get to do is change those titles if the nation's name changes. Aspirants to the titles of deposed rulers don't change the title: no one ever claimed they were Emperor of the U.S.S.R: they were claimants to the throne of Russia. The members of the Hanover dynasty that purport to carry the title of "Prince of Great Britain and Ireland" did not get to change their titles when that nation became the "Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Crown Prince Alexander is trying a sort of "sleight of hand" in which he retains the title "Crown Prince Alexander" but changes the "of Yugoslavia" to "of Serbia": but that then becomes a "title of pretense" rather than one he actually holds. According to his website, his claim is that he is King of Serbia, but he uses a more "modest" title. But in the real world, he gets to change the title if he becomes king, because then he will be an actual fount of honour, or when he gets an new title from the government. the choice is pretty much use his name or use his (unchanged) title. - Nunh-huh 16:13, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yugoslavia to Serbia 

message: From Alexander's website it seems that he is proud of his ancestry from medieval Balkan kings. Through his own family Karageorgevich, he apparently has no such royal descent, but he has that through the royal houses of Europe, which his mother and paternal grandmother belonged to. This means that almost all royals of Europe have similar Serbian ancestry...
What is at least known of Alexander's father's medieval Serbian lineage:
1. Zupan Zavida, in Serbia
2. Stepan Nemanja of Serbia
3. Stepan Provencani of Serbia
4. Stepan Uros I of Serbia
5. Stepan Dragutin of Serbia
6. Jelisaveta of Serbia, m Stepan Kotromanic of Bosnia
7. Vladislav Kotromanic of Bosnia
8. Jekaterina of Bosnia, m Erman of Celje (Slovenia)
9. Erman II of Celje in Slovenia
10. Barbara of Celje, m Sigismund of Bohemia
11. Elisabeth of Bohemia, m Albert of Austria
12. Elisabeth of Austria, m Casimir IV of Poland and Lithuania-Belarusia
13. Anna of Poland, m Bogislav X of Pomerania
14. Sophia of Pomerania, m Frederick I of Denmark
15. Adolphus of Denmark, Duke of Holsatia
16. Sophia of Holsatia, m Duke John of Mecklenburg
17. Adolphus Frederick of Mecklenburg from the dynasty of Slavonic Obotritians
18. Adolphus Frederick II of Mecklenburg
19. Charles of Mecklenburg
20. Charles II of Mecklenburg
21. Louise of Mecklenburg
22. Alexandra Fedorovna of Prussia m Nicholas I Pavlovich of Russia
23. Alexander II Nicolaievich of Russia
24. Maria Alexandrovna of Russia, m Alfred of Edinburgh
25. Marie of Edinburgh, Queen of Romania
26. Maria of Romania, Queen of Yugoslavia
27. Peter II of Yugoslavia
28. Alexander of Yugoslavia
What is at least known of Alexander's mother's medieval Serbian lineage:
1. Zupan Zavida, in Serbia
2. Stepan Nemanja of Serbia
3. Stepan Provencani of Serbia
4. Stepan Uros I of Serbia
5. Stepan Dragutin of Serbia
6. Jelisaveta of Serbia, m Stepan Kotromanic of Bosnia
7. Vladislav Kotromanic of Bosnia
8. Jekaterina of Bosnia, m Erman of Celje (Slovenia)
9. Erman II of Celje in Slovenia
10. Barbara of Celje, m Sigismund of Bohemia
11. Elisabeth of Bohemia, m Albert of Austria
12. Elisabeth of Austria, m Casimir IV of Poland and Lithuania-Belarusia
13. Sophia of Poland m Fryderyk of Brandenburg
14. Sophia of Ansbach m Fryderyk of Silesia (Legnica)
15. Jerzy Duke of Silesia (Legnica)
16. Joachim Fryderyk Duke of Silesia (Legnica)
17. John, Duke of Silesia (Legnica)
18. Jerzy, duke of Silesia (Brzeg)
19. Dorotea Jelisaveta of Silesia, m Henry of Nassau
20. Charlotte Amalia of Nassau m William Henry of Nassau
21. Charles of Nassau
22. Charles of Nassau
23. Caroline of Nassau
24. William of Hessia
25. Louise of Hessia
26. Georgios I of Greece
27. Constantin I of Greece
28. Alexander I of Greece
29. Alexandra of Greece, Queen of Yugoslavia
30. Alexander of Yugoslavia
or:
12. Anna of Austria, m William of Thuringia
13. Malgorzata of Thuringia m John Cicero of Brandenburg
14. Joachim Nestor of Brandenburg
15. Margaret (Malgorzata) of Brandenburg m John of Zerbst (Ascania)
16. Joachim of Zerbst (Ascania)
17. Anna Maria of Ascania, m Joachim Fryderyk Duke of Silesia (Legnica)
18. John, Duke of Silesia (Legnica) - same as nr 17 in list above
19. Jerzy, duke of Silesia (Brzeg)
20. Dorotea Jelisaveta of Silesia, m Henry of Nassau
21. Charlotte Amalia of Nassau m William Henry of Nassau
22. Charles of Nassau
23. Charles of Nassau
24. Caroline of Nassau
25. William of Hessia
26. Louise of Hessia
27. Georgios I of Greece
28. Constantin I of Greece
29. Alexander I of Greece
30. Alexandra of Greece, Queen of Yugoslavia
31. Alexander of Yugoslavia
Many other parallels exist too. 217.140.193.123 21:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  descent from ancient Serbian kings 

message: It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. WhiteNight T | @ | C 03:26, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Result

message: After thoroughly rereading this article, I've found out that there are about 4 or 5 encyclopedic sentences about him in the article. The rest is repetitive enumeration of irrelevant factoids. While these could be OK in the "Trivia" section, we need much more information about mr. Karađorđević if we want to have a useful article about him. The info merged from the articles on his family may help somewhat, but it will again mostly boost the "Trivia" section. We could check if there is any info about him in other related articles (Yugoslavia, Serbia, his predecessors, etc.) that should really be moved here. Some info about anything interesting happening to him would also be very useful. Zocky 17:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is mostly trivia 

message: Jtdirl called my edit POV, so I just wanted to figure out why. Here is what I changed:
* He is the son of Peter II, the last king of Yugoslavia, who was from the Karadjordjevic dynasty. to
* He is the son of Peter II, the last king of Yugoslavia of Karađorđević dynasty.
because it reads better (imho).
* Alexander is styled Crown Prince of Serbia by royalists and some media because when he was born his father was still legally on the throne, albeit in exile, but it is a courtesy title, not a constitutional office, given Serbia is today a republic. etc. to
* Karađorđević is styled Crown Prince of Serbia by Serbian royalists. Since Yugoslavia became a republic on November 29, 1945, he has no constitutional status. At the time of his birth, the royal government had been in exile for several years, and had no de facto power in Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, which was proclaimed in August of 1945.
because I doubt any e.g. Croatian royalists would call him Crown Prince. Also, if media calls him that, they are probably sympathetic of ex Yugoslav Monarchy. Furthermore, I tried to explain why not everybody calls him that - he never really held the throne and never had an opportunity to do so. I also tried to rewrite it so there are no redundant sentences. How many ways are there to say that he in fact isn't a monarch and that he has no throne? "My version" explains the historical circumstances on why he never became a king. 
If you think there is some POV in what I wrote, please discuss it here first. --dcabrilo 21:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jtdirl's revert 

message: The name 'Yugoslavia' has not been used since 2003, as it is now called Serbia & Montenegro. Montengro will eventually become independent, as will Kosovo. Serbia will then be a country in its own right. Crown Prince Alexander is of Serbia, not Yugoslavia. It must be remembered that King Peter II of Yugoslavia never abdicated. He died a King, albeit, one who could never return home. - (Aidan Work 01:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The name 'Yugoslavia' has not been used since 2003.

message: Isn't it true that he doesn't speak Serbian? Or, that he speaks it poorly? Have a look at this, a video titled "King and Tanks" ... at approximately 2 minutes and 30 seconds we see Alexander giving a 'speech' ... he needs to read from notes and even though he has his notes to help him, he has a hard time pronouncing the words and getting the cases right. And all he had to say was "danas je najsrećniji dan u mom životu". --Daniel Tanevski talk 06:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, he still has a relatively thick accent in Serbian and makes a lot of mistakes. I think it's only normal, since he first visited Yugoslavia in 1991. --dcabrilo 17:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Born in England, educated mostly in England, was living in USA... Only when in his fifties, he was able to settle full-time in Belgrade. ObRoy 07:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I can understand. For someone who probably spoke a lot of English or French, learning a language like Serbian (or Russian, Greek, Japanese, or any type of language with distinctly non-English words) would be difficult. I speak English, and I'm currently learning French. Any French person would know immediatly that I was an American just by my accent alone. I think over time he will learn the language, especially if the county is having monarchial leanings, and I believe all three of his sons are currently studying Serbian. Morhange 15:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But he is rather old, and elder people tend to learn less an slower. Still, he apparently has never been totally unfamiliar with Serbocroat, so perhaps it's just much practice that helps enough.  ObRoy 07:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Serbian

message: Since the end of Yugoslavia, he has desired the throne of Serbia, and it seems thus that he currently is Claimant of Serbia, see also his website. That is a fact, and therefire it can and should be explained in the text of the article. He should not be given any title here on basis of that claim, but the claim should be explained. So, it seems to be wrong to state that he yet is "pretender of Yugoslavia" of "claimant to thr Yugoslavian throne". That's something he was decades ago. ObRoy 08:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the article should be moved to 'Prince Alexander of Serbia' or 'Alexander, Crown Prince of Serbia'. Though the historic (his birth) title is 'Crown Prince of Yugoslavia', it's misleading, now that Yugoslavia no longer existed. GoodDay 20:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  his claim/ ambition 

message: Are you joking, Diodecimus? Why do you insist on having a grammatically incorrect text in the infobox? You cannot say "head of House of Karađorđević". There has to be the definite article before the word "house". Furthermore, why should "House of Karađorđević" be italicised? See WP:Italics. It is not emphasised, not a foreign term, not a quotation, etc.
There is absolutely no reason to mention the years of birth of his sons in the infobox. It is never done. It is unneccessary. Should we mention the years of birth and death of his parents and spouses? Of course not!
Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (linking)#Repeated links, it is not appropriate to link to the articles about his father, son and royal house twice. Linking once is enough.
Could you please explain why you revert again? I hope it's not just for the sake of reverting. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Is everyone happy with this compromise, proposed by John K? The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 12:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

text: [After EC] I would probably also use the definite article, but it's hardly worth so much energy. I agree with you on birth years for his sons, but the repeated linking thing seems wrong. The manual of style page you note says that the rule has "Many exceptions", and only lists a few of them. I tend to think that different lines in an infobox is pretty close to equivalent to multiple lines in a table, which is one of the specifically mentioned instances where double linking is okay. john k (talk) 12:23, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

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thread_title: File:Coat of arms of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.svg Nominated for Deletion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello,
I am writing because i tried to change the title to Crown Prince of Serbia instead of Yugoslavia. Official title of whole Royal Family of Serbia is Serbia not Yugoslavia after crash of this state. By the decree of Royal Family, they decided to keep the title before the Kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenes. As you know Kingdom of Serbia existed from 1882 to 1918, and two dynasties (Obrenovic and Karadjordjevic) had title of Serbia. When Kingdom of Yugoslavia was proclaimed they (Karadjordjevic) changed their title in Yugoslavia, but when the state ceased to exist they returned the title of Serbia. Can you please advise how I can change the caption of the page. I would like to clear up the confusion with titles and to put the title as Royal Family uses. Thank you in advance!
Marija Marijanovic (talk) 06:48, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see the related discussion at Talk:Katherine Karađorđević#Not even her courtesy title is "Crown Princess". It appears 'Crown Prince of Serbia' has never been recognised as his title by any recognised government, whereas Alexander was recognised as crown prince of the Democratic Federal Yugoslavia from 1943 to 1945. The current article follows the relevant Wikipedia conventions. (Pinging ) Verbcatcher (talk) 18:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing the title