Talk:Murder of Jesse Dirkhising/Archive 2

message: I merged the Matthew Shepard section with the "Bias" section, for two reasons:
# Most - in fact, practically all - accusations about bias in this case have compared it to the Shepard case.
# The "Bias" section had very little content and presented only one POV.
66.183.165.57 17:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger with "Bias" section

message: This is the first I've heard of this article, or this case, and what sticks out as needing wikifying is the "Accusations of bias" section. The quotes _seem_ inflamatory and POV as if the point that two men might be gay and murdered the boy wasn't obvious. The Nexus and Google numbers are also wonky and, to me, detract from the point of the article. Much more could be said with far fewer words. I would hope the thrust of the article would be to share the information not prove to the world that men rape boys. 
Also the comparison to the Matthew Shepherd case seems, I want to say flimsy, for this article it may make sense to point out that the coverage was compared but then move on. This is _pedophilia_, a tragic case of a young victim's life cut short. Matthew Shepherd was an _adult_ trying to get laid in a gay bar who was savagely beaten in _hate crime_ by several men trying to beat up a queer. Let's also remember that Jesse Dirkhising's family can read this. Perhaps the whole matter can be tempered with some respect for a child who was brutalized then died. Benjiboi 03:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The point isn't to "prove to the world that men rape boys," but to focus on why the Dirkhising case is notable which is - ironically - because of the fact that it received so little attention as being notable by the press at the same time frame of the Shepard case.  This fact - largely exploited for political ends by conservative outlets - is what propelled this case to national attention and notability. For articles to be included in Wiki they must establish notability of the subject matter. --Strothra 03:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I appreciate you pointing that out because the article didn't make it clear which is probably part of the problem. I still stand by what I wrote though, as the section needs work to bring out that clarity that you were able to do in less than thirty words. Benjiboi 03:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I definitely wasn't arguing against your point that it needs work, only the intent of the article. --Strothra 04:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accusations of bias section is pretty wobbly 

message: Can someone more familiar with this article please archive some of the outdated talk threads so those working on it can read more clearly what the current issues seem to be? Benjiboi 17:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything above Comparison w. Matthew Shepard should be archived.  I was involved in the other discussions which have now died out and those were quite a while ago. --Strothra 19:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Benjiboi 00:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving talk pages 

message: * [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a382abf9f7001.htm The Affidavit in the Jesse Dirkhising Case] Parental Discretion Advised
* Media Coverage Criticism
* The tragic story of Jesse Dirkhising - WND 
* Traditional Values Coalition Article on the conviction of the murderers of Dirkhising
* [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3abb65202359.htm Editorial on the impact of the murder on homosexual culture]
* The Dirkhising Case: An Obligation to Youth
* "Not a hate crime", by Joseph Farah, WorldNetDaily.com
The above links all seem to come from POV sources, let's ensure they are covered as acceptable by WP:EL before re-adding. Possible another source could be used instead. Benjiboi 00:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Anytime I see a "Parental discretion advised" tag, it's almost a given that it's a bad link. I can see maybe one of those as an example of the alleged bias of the media, but that's about it. AniMate 00:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. I wasn't able to find great online sources as the news articles are just a wee bit too old and have to be bought from their archives so I'm digging through books first and after a bit of an article overhaul will look at what, if anything, the links have to offer. Benjiboi 02:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO the whole "Matthew Shephard" section needs to go.  A single sentence, perhaps, on how the two are related, but none of that information is actually about Dirkhising. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually used to think the same thing, however in researching it (and I'm still not done), Dirkhising's case was only brought up and wouldn't be an entry here except that it was referenced and continually compared to Shepherd. With "conservatives'" view that generally this case should be treated the same as Shepherd and those opposed demonstrating the reasons why it shouldn't. I also suspect that the death was an accident but I haven't seen a good RS to back that reliably. In any case almost everything ties the two together. Benjiboi 00:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I've tied to address the above concern in the lede to have more clarity. Benjiboi 03:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: OK, I've re-checked through all of the above links, mostly they are POV-pushing from one side or another and none are terribly good as reliable sources and that combined with that the rest of the article is now much better sourced renders them unneeded. I've completed this phase of the overhaul and research and consider this topic thread done. Benjiboi 02:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links review 

message: Anyone willing to hunt down a photo? Benjiboi 21:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo? 

message: Could somebody who is willing to be honest, subjective and neutral please have another look at the Jesse Dirkhising page? It is NOT WP:NPOV and that makes it a really big problem. It's clear to me that it's nothing more than the POV of several editors who have taken over the Dirkhising page. Take note of the edits, sources, material and references used. It's all one sided. How can one assume good faith when we have editors pushing their own agenda through typical propaganda? This article needs to be deleted and re-written in order for it to work. It must be neutral, which it is not.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by CadenS (talk • contribs) 22:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: CadenS, please stop, insinuating other editors are not honest violates wikipedia's policies on no personal attacks. Stick to content not the contributor.:128.84.79.171, I used to feel the very same way but indeed almost every source beyond the local news positioned this murder in context and contrasted to the Shepherd one. One solution, I guess,   would be to refocus and move the article to "Comparisons between the Dirkhising and Shepherd murders". In that case I think there would be no bio then for Dirkhising as all the relevant material would be in that article and he is known only because of this event. Benjiboi 01:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Benjiboi, I am sticking to the content. That's my whole point. Please stop making assumptions about me. The content of this article is not WP:NPOV . It reads as being POV from top to bottom. It needs to be reworked in order for it to be neutral. Moving the article is not the solution. CadenS (talk) 22:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:AGF does not require people to be stupid.  You are making veiled accusations against established editors.  Benji and I certainly have disagreed over this and other articles, but Wiki is a work continuously in progress.  If you have specific complaints about the article then please use this space to address them and to suggest improvements.  Unconstructive accusations are not useful and are disruptive. --Veritas (talk) 22:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I give up. I'm sorry for even trying to help out. I feel like I'm being ganged up on. I'm sorry, but this is how I feel. My intentions are good but I feel nobody believes me. I will no longer attempt to help this page. CadenS (talk) 22:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jesse Dirkhising article does not read as NPOV 

message: I tried to do some cleanup a few days ago, but the citations are really becoming a problem in this article.  There is far too much markup cluttering up the text, and making it extremely' difficult to edit. 
{| class="collapsible collapsed" style="width:100%;font-size:88%;text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;"
|-
! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | An example
|-
| style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white;" |
At the time of his death, Dirkhising was a thirteen-year-old seventh grader from the small town of Prairie Grove.
David Carpenter lived about thirty miles away in a "small but booming northwest Arkansas town" called Rogers.
 
 
Carpenter's younger lover, Joshua Macave Brown, shared his apartment. Carpenter managed a beauty salon and was a friend of Dirkhising's parents, Tina and Miles Yates Jr., and Dirkhising had stayed with the two men at their apartment on weekends for two months prior to his death. The child's family had been told he was helping out at the salon.
 
Brown, who had sex with Dirkhising for two months prior his death, claimed that Dirkhising was a willing participant.
Dirkhising died two weeks before the first anniversary of Matthew Shepard's murder. Shepard, a University of Wyoming student and young gay man, had been met at a bar by Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson who posed as gay men and offered Shepard a ride in their car.
 
They drove Shepard to a remote part of rural Laramie, Wyoming; robbed, pistol whipped, tortured, tied him to a fence and left him to die.
 
 
Shepard was still alive, but in a coma when discovered eighteen hours later by a cyclist, who at first thought that Shepard was a scarecrow.
 
 
 
As he lay in intensive care, candlelight vigils were held by the people of Laramie.
 
Police arrested McKinney and Henderson finding the bloody gun as well as the victim's shoes and wallet in their truck.
 
It was revealed that the two men had also attempted to get their girlfriends to provide alibis.

Much of the media coverage also included calls for hate crime legislation. Gay conservative writer Andrew Sullivan noted that both murders were rare and the difference in how they were treated was likely due to the political atmosphere and agendas.
 
== Death and investigation ==
On September 26, 1999, police in Rogers, Arkansas, responded to a 911 call and went to the home of David Carpenter; Joshua Brown was also present.
 
Police found that Dirkhising had been tied to a mattress; his ankles, knees and wrists had been bound with duct tape and belts. He had been gagged with his own underwear, a bandana and duct tape. Police determined that Dirkhising had been repeatedly raped over a period of several hours.
 
He had also been drugged. Dirkhising later died in hospital, his death hastened apparently as the result of positional asphyxia. Some believed the death was accidental.
 
The Arkansas State Police recorded in their affidavit a statement by Brown that he had been involved in molesting Dirkhising for at least two months prior to Dirkhising's death. Brown "characterized the assault on Jesse as 'horseplay' and claimed that Jesse was a willing participant."
 
 
I've made it small and it's lost its formatting because of the nowiki tags, but the sheer amount of markup is insane.  It's near impossible to edit certain sections because of all the citation clutter.  Surely this isn't the standard way of doing cites now?  Exploding Boy (talk) 14:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was likely more intent on sourcing than concerned about cite protocols, which likely vary considerably. Regardless, I've cleaned up what I saw as obvious issues and moved cites to the ends of sentences where I saw them. If there is something specific, let me know and I'm happy to address it.  -- Banjeboi 00:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just find the particular style of citation used in this article extremely confusing.  Most articles seem to use simple  tags, while this one has elaborate tables of markup that take up lines and lines in the edit window and make it very hard to edit.  Not a criticism of you or of the sources, only that it's exceedingly difficult to edit the text.  Exploding Boy (talk) 15:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This article does use  tags. The Harvard ref style is much cleaner as a typical ref would look similar to Smith, page 89. I usually work on much shorter articles so utilize the WP:Citation templates seen on this article. I've seen them collapsed by putting a space instead of a line break on each line but, IMHO, those are harder to read. Do you think we need to convert over to the Harvard style?  -- Banjeboi 16:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I know it does, but my concern is with the additional markup.  I'm not sure what you mean by Harvard ref style as relates to Wikipedia, but I do think that we need to clean up all the extra text in the edit window to make it possible to edit this article easily.  Exploding Boy (talk) 15:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Harvard ref style would do this as the cite typically looks like Smith, page 89. instead. There is no set rule on which style of citation to use but I'm happy to work on converting all these over now I'm sure of what the issue is.  -- Banjeboi 20:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment about current state of article