Talk:Chinook Jargon

message: Thought of starting this, came here earlier to suggest it, wound up staying around to kibbitz and increase the wordlist.  Did a lot of name-finding during some research work for the [Canadian Mountain Encyclopedia] - glaciers, creeks, plateaus, marshes, peaks, hills, what-not all over the place. Might start it later, i.e. another time; taking a break now and will probably get distracted onto something else when I sit back down.Skookum1 09:28, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I recognized a lot of the Chinook Jargon words as place names, so on a whim I made them links and was pleasantly surprised to find the articles already there. I avocate continuing that, and adding the Chinook translation to every existing article. Tom Lougheed 17:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: List of Chinook Jargon placenames?

message: It's since I began expanding the wordlist here that frustration set in when many idiomatic expressions common through the Skookum Illahee, such as mamook kloshe (mend, heal, fix), "can't" be put in place (supposedly) because that's not the Grand Ronde usage; and Grand Rondies would like all the rest of us to revise the historical Jargon according to their model (do you hear axes grinding? - you bet).  The distinction between mamook and munk is one of those core things that make the reality what it is - that the creolized Grand Ronde Tshinuk-Wawa is a very different beastie than the Jargon as it was known in the old days (same as the Chinuk vs Chinook spelling variation preferred by linguistickese/academic types, in opposition to the bulk of historically recorded usages).  I know on the Chinook Wiki project there's even some discussion about using GR/linguistics pronunciation/orthography in preference to the "bad" spellings created by those incompetent 'ol whiteys.  Such arrogance, such revision; presumably though such a choice of "prounciation and orthography" implies the adoption of GR word-usages, including "munk" over "mamook" and more.  
Why can't the linguists just admit that there was no "One Jargon" and that GR's Jargon is an evolution from the older Jargon, and should not be considered representative of it - or worse, that it is the "correct" form.  You would have been laughed out of any rancherie or roadhouse north of Olympia or east of The Dalles.Skookum1 00:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Mamook'' vs. ''munk''

message: Could someone more competent than me please check on how I expanded moos-moos?
I remember my grandfather using Chinook Jargon as part of his attempt to explain the English words "steer" and "heifer", I'm not confident that I've remembered it right.
I am really not qualified anyway: my family Jargon-using family were all almost completely WASPs (or WISPs?), and I still understand Chinook Jargon only poorly. And grandpa refused to explain what man stone moos-moos meant. I thought it was the neighbors' bull's name until I read stone = "testicles" in the vocabulary list. (Oddly, my sweet, rough old grandmother was not embarassed to often call skunks "stinky butt" in English. Hmmm.) Tom Lougheed 18:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: humm opoots, but opoots isn't very graphic; it can just mean "the back end of something", as opposed to "bum" or "ass", neither of which are particularly bad words in English but the object itself is something you're not supposed to mention.  Like, one supposes, "elbow" or "ankle" a hundred and fifty years ago, when those were considered erotic if displayed publicly.  So while stone is very explicit, opoots is very not; similarly tatoosh for breast/milk.....it's all in the context.  That hyas hyas stone illahee thing I quoted from Paul St. Pierre's Breaking Smith's Quarter Horse uses stone in a different capacity, but that's the Chilcotin variant of the Jargon and not within the narrow parameters of Chinookology's dependence on the Columbia/Georgia Strait Jargon sources; on the other hand, the speaker might have been meaning "the big MACHO mountains", which isn't inconceivable either if you have any idea what the Chilko Lake-Taseko Lakes area looks like.  Anyway, what WOULD have grossed out your grandmother might have been humm thlwop opoots, which would specify the anus as opposed to the buttocks (Fr.  cul vsderrière, Sp. culo vs. atras).  At one of the two Jargon conferences I attended - the first one in Grand Ronde - I got the old ladies from Warm Springs chuckling about hyas skookum scotchman wootlat, which I used in a translation of a joke about a regimental sergeant-major who wakes up in hospital with a blue ribbon on his....wootlat.  They got a good laugh out of it; but the prissy GR/chinookology crowd was already up in arms because Warm Springs, like all the rest of us, used mamook instead of munk, because to them mamook means "fuck", as in "do someone"; the Warm Springs ladies (elders all) were pretty offended when they were presumptuously corrected by one of the GR/Chinookology people; who also criticized an elder white person, the storekeeper from Warm Springs, for not speaking it "correctly".  Which is as you can gather where my other comments about GR's prejudicial view of the Jargon come into play; and part of that is their own prissiness on terms like wootlat, munk/mamook and things like chinaman which they find inconvenient to their post-modern intellectualities and not-so-veiled puritanism......Skookum1 20:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please check on ''moos-moos''

message: Historically this almost always meant Queen Victoria, largely because the Jargon was relatively dead by the time Elizabeth II came to the throne.  Its usage for a female Lieutenant-Governor would be unprecedented, and in terms of royal protocol, inappropriate; but users of the Jargon might not care much for royal protocol; but again, there were no female Governors nor Premiers (until Iona Campgnolo and Rita Johnston, respetively); and Hyas Tyee is implicitly "king", so it's not even appropriate for a Premier.  Anyway, this is just all an aside; an L-G is addressed as "Your Honour" so, in my latter-day estimation, a Jargonization of that would be yuronnur (if not by that spelling, rather than, say, maika kloosh nem).  NB the city of Victoria was Bictoli, Queensborough/New Westminter was koonspa, so both her name and a variation on "queen" were already in the Jargon; the BC version of it anyway.Skookum1 19:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There have been female governors here, south of the border in Washington: Dixy Lee Ray and the current governor Christine Gregoire. - Jmabel | Talk 20:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If there was a need to descrbe them in CJ I suppose Hyas klootchman tyee would do, then, as I believe it may also have been used at some point in recent years for Iona Campagnolo (who speaks CJ and used it in her first Throne Speech).Skookum1 (talk) 20:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Hyas Klootchman Tyee

message: There's a lot of non sequiturs and "loaded language" throughout bits and pieces of the article; I've been emending it where possible but it's rife with problems, I think, and bits of "knee-jerk language" with typically po-mo phrases turning up here and there; I REALLY object to the use of "European" in discussions of the Jargon, as the Jargon itself made a firm distinction between at least six or seven types of white man (King George Man, Boston Man, leplet, Pasiooks, Dutchman (all Europeans other than Brits and Pasiooks), Scotchman and Irish - I've heard that even lately: "Hey, Irish!" as a form of address to a stranger/acquaintance known to be Hibernian; in the Fraser Canyon to this day "Hey, Boston!" is the same as "Hey, white man"; even though the "American" meaning of "Boston Man" is long-forgotten.  Similarly "Portyg(h)ee" turns up in older publications here, and it can be presumed that it was used in the Jargon/ or in the Jargon's adaption into local English; no terms for Japanese or Spaniards/Mexicans have surfaced, and "Hindoo" is a misnomer for Sikhs comes from the same mentality that called all non-Brit Europeans as "Dutchman" (be you Moravian, Croat or Galician, it didn't matter; primary meaning of Dutchman, also, was "German", not "Dutch").
Note my changes about "Hawai'ian immigrants" and my history-page comments about that.  Some repetition in that paragraph now because I added something further/earlier about industrial/workplace usage, but that was meant in the context of necessarily-Jargon-speaking environments, be they bars in New Westminster/Vancouver or Kamloops or anywhere else; canneries etc; and mixed-race households (Hawai'ian or otherwise - the Chinese were often offered native wives but turned them down for racist reasons; whites, Hawaiians, blacks and others had no issues, except with marriage per se; so Chinese usage is thought to be mostly mercantile, and in environments such as canneries, as the railway gangs used Chinese interpreters; the Jargon was used by CPR/CNR First Nations railway workers, however, to the extent that the CPR was working on a manual of the Jargon when they stopped using it c.WWI; same translator for that project and the CPR's operations was working on a full Chinook bible (different from LeJeune's, that is).  I'd like one day to see the colonial Hansard for the debate on making Chinook an official language...... Skookum1 16:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent fixes

message: Just stopped by Skookumchuck, British Columbia and rewrote it a bit.  I have a good idea exactly how many Chinook Jargon placenames there are - hundreds, and significant places/things it the dozens, which are likely to be articles sooner or later.  I've always wanted to do a Chinook toponymy...maybe this is the right venue for it, and a usefully expandable one too; at the very least a List of Chinook Jargon placenames would be a worthy page, I think.....Skookum1 08:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, list is the way to go I think. A shortened version could appear in this article with a link to the main list. heqs 10:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any point in :Category:Chinook Jargon placenames??Skookum1 (talk) 19:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed Category: Chinook Jargon placenames

message: See List of Chinook Jargon placenames, also Talk:List of Chinook Jargon placenamesSkookum1 19:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[List of Chinook Jargon placenames]] begun

message: I’d like to see phonetic glosses added to the words in the article. The ad hoc English-based orthography is somewhat difficult to interpret for people who don’t already speak Chinook Jargon. Also, stress is important but completely unmarked. I can do IPA if necessary, but I only have one or two written sources for the Jargon from which I can work that are phonetically accurate and show stress.
Also, in working on Tlingit, I’ve come across a number of loans from CJ. Some of them are reduced in ways that run counter to the expected pronunciation of the original CJ words, which leads me to believe that they were imported from odd or uncommon dialects of CJ. An example of this is Tl. wasóos  “cow”, from CJ moosmoos, where the first CJ syllable has been reduced to , which is not what I’d expect if moosmoos was pronounced  with the stress on the first syllable. Another group of words seem to have been pronounced with a sh in CJ instead of the more common s. An example of this is Tl. dóosh  “cat” which comes from CJ puspus; since Tlingit has a perfectly serviceable  I find it strange that the s in pus(pus) would have been converted into an . This among other instances of  appearing where  is expected leads me to believe that the CJ speakers that the Tlingit were in contact with used  themselves, in words like *pushpush or *Bashton. Can any of you CJ people comment on this? — Jéioosh 22:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Indian view, the seat of consciousness is the heart; in the Western view it is the brain.  This is why thinking is associated with tumtum.  Manyshoes (talk) 20:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Phonetics

message: As it stands in the article now, this is the definition:
kamuks or comox — dog. This would have originally referred to a now-extinct species of domestic dog once common in the region, which was raised for its wool and meat. This breed is often depicted in drawings and paintings from the earliest eras.
This seems to be vandalism to me, but I don't know the subject area well enough to be sure. Can somebody who does know confirm or deny this?
: I think that it's not vandalism. The description was in the vocabulary list when I first read through it, perhaps in late 2005. And I have indeed seen pictures painted during the pioneer-era that show a small curled-tailed variety of dog accompanying various native people. I also recall from the late 1970's hearing students from WSU chant Cultus Comox when the UW football team came on the field. Tom Lougheed 08:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On one of the Kwakwaka'wakw or Salish websites it's asserted that K'omoks is a Salishan word meaning whatever...in the case of that group, that may be the case, I'm not sure; I know comox was an alternate spelling for kamuks though; the WSU chant is interesting, I'll have to add it to my expansion of Chinook Jargon use by English-speakers or whatever it's called (and isn't quite titled right as others who learned CJ spoke Norwegian, German, French, Chinese, Hawaiian etc....).Skookum1 (talk) 20:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Kamuks/Comox

message: At the very end of the article, just in front of the categories is the following text which is commented out so it does not display (see below). Should it be included anywhere, or expunged? j-beda 13:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know who commented it out, didn't pay attention; it's all citable, and swhould go back in.Skookum1 (talk) 20:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Commented out section?

message: Yes, Skookum, I was wrong about Tumwater. That's something locals told me, that the place used to be called Tum-Tum, don't know exactly. For some reason I pictured Grand Ronde in BC although the article(s) say clearly it's in Oregon. Nowhere did it say the Jargon was Salishan-based either, I don't know why I thought it was important to point out it wasn't, except that it is interesting or might be interesting in the article to mention the Wakashan, Salishan and Penutian (which includes Mayan, Chinook proper, Araucanian and others) families and their affiliations. Vi Hilbert, the Lushootseed scholar, mentions the non-Salish groups in western Washington. IIRC the Puyallup had something to suggest a non-Salish linguistic substrate.
Regarding Bush and competing claims to the territory, it was my understanding that the "green line" ran roughly somewhere between the Nisqually Delta (Ft. Nisqually) and Steilacoom (Ft. Steilacoom) for a time, George Bush occupying the southlands for the USA, although the present forts were built later. Interesting to note in the entry Oregon boundary dispute tha the phrases "54' 40" or fight!" and "manifest destiny" both came out of the dispute.
Franz Boas only recorded a few things in Chinook Jargon it seems. The links to the Jargon dictionaries in the entry are very good. The "Mystery Dictionary" on the AT&T page looks to be verbatim with Costello's list in The Siwash (1895) may be from the Dictionary of the Chinook Jargon printed in Olympia in 1873 mentioned by Shaw. The place names seem to center around Olympia and Union City (now just Union, WA; the city must have never developed as expected). The Washington State Library in Olympia or the Smithsonian might have a copy of the dictionary mentioned by Shaw so this could be checked.
For whatever reason, HBC apparently saw fit to break up the emerging scene at the Kanaka village.
Point taken on international phonetics; do recordings (Smithsonian or elsewhere) exist of "native" Jargon speakers? A link on the page to something like that would be very good. Lushootseed phonetics are very different to English and other European languages. From what I understand the double T in Seattle merely represents an attempt to render the closest thing English has to a glottal stop, while the L in Seattle is an entirely different sound in Lushootseed. I believe Vi Hilbert renders this L-ish sound as l with a ~ through it. I'd be interested to know if there were any Hoh/Quileute contributions to the Chinook Jargon and more about the Spanish, which is mentioned by some but not others. The BC writer Anne Cameron, who can't always be trusted to transmit native lore correctly, I hear, mentions oral traditions concerning the arrival of the Spanish ships somewhere on or near Vancouver Island. The Olympic Peninsula was also claimed and named by the Spanish. Russians were also involved in the fur trade, sailing down to the Russian River in California, but there seems to be no Russian in the Jargon. Interesting why not.
Hypatea 15:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As above somewhere, Jargon varied with the region and the available languages; Chilco Choate says that the form spoken in the Chilcotin had Gaelic and Russian in it, but doesn't provide examples; it's almost for certain that Alaska Panhandle-area Jargon must have had Russian loanwords, but no documents have surfaced giving local variants other than the Tlingit Jargon (which ain't CJ); the recorded Jargon sources are near-ALL lower Columbia River based, Shaw, Gibbs, Harper, Pasco, El Comancho etc. although the latter two do expand on Puget Sound; what I'm saying is that in areas where there were no documentarists we can only go by hearsay as to what the other components were, sadly enough.  And there are tapes of aboriginal "native" speakers, people raised with CJ as their primary language, from Lillooet, Bella Coola and elsewhere, but the tribal lagnuage authoritiers in charge of them and the linguistics/academics-community advising them are hostilee to opening up regionalCJ studies as a perceived threat to revival of the traditional/ancient languages in each area; lots of tapes, nobody willing to let anyone hear them.....tapes of non-native "native" speakers were rarely, if ever, collected, though lots of non-native people in remote communiteis grew up bilingual, sometimes tri or quadlingual, in CJ and whatever else (two contacts from Pavilion told me they speak St'at'imcets as well as CJ; in other cases the home language might have been,say, German or Norwegian or French, plus English, CJ and whatever local language.....).  It's a great bit empty hollow in CJ studies, all this stuff; maybe certain parties will take their blinkers off one day and dust off those tapes before they demagnetize.....Skookum1 (talk) 20:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: ...

message: The former is theoretical, althoug I've found in Costello's 1909 publication the idea that a predecessor jargon existed was out there even back then; the Proto-Jargon shoudl be a separate article, and efforts by certain academic agendas to equivocate the two are citable only because they've theorized about it; but a theory isn't a fact....rather than add another cite template, here's the wordiing that's bothering me, although there are similar obfuscations elsewhere in the article:
:The Jargon was originally constructed from a great variety of Amerind words of the Pacific Northwest, arising as an intra-indigenous contact language in a region marked by divisive geography and intense linguistic diversity.
Better worded as "The Proto-Jargon".....the historical meaning of Chinook Jargon is clearly that form which integrated English, French and other non-PacNW languages, and is not a reference to the Proto-Jargon, which clearly is a different beastie, as also the modern form in GR (which doesnt' even have a common vocabulary with the Warm Springs variant, much less any a priori "correctness" over forms found farther north; or superior to Chinook Jargon use by English-language speakers, which is mis-titled anyway as Germans, Scandinavians, Chinese, French etc and others used it as well.....but who as speakers get derided by indigenously-biased linguists as "incapable ofpronouncing it properly"...pretty funny considering the mangling of English and French borrowings (but boy would "we" ever get nailed for saying natives were "incapable"), and totally untrue given the phonological palette of the Gaelic and Germanic and other European peoples present in the region.Skookum1 (talk) 18:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Equivocation of Proto-Jargon with real-world [[Chinook Jargon]]

message: that got built before I and others contributing at the time knew about content parameters; should it be migrated to the CJ Wiki, or into Wiktionary, or where?  Some should remain because of their continuing use today (mowitch, e.g.); the idea was to give a demonstration of the fluidity of meanings; as there can be no "proper pronunciation" despite GR-biased academics' inclination to claim that theirs is teh "right one".Skookum1 (talk) 18:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Lexicon section

message: I removed the two sentences citing Duane Pasco, including:
"...cites a dialogue "between a Chinaman and a Swede" that, he says, was some of the best-spoken Jargon, i.e. the most idiomatic and most articulate, he'd ever heard." (cite here to http://tenaswawa.home.att.net/)
The misquote above is apparently a confabulation of:
"The jargon served as a means of discourse between those individuals whose language base was uncommon. A Makah of Neah Bay might converse with an Englishman, Frenchman, Chinese, S’Klallam, Tsimshian or Nisqually using Chinook Jargon. ... an Englishman and a Frenchman [not sharing a mutual language] might find this an appropriate form of verbal intercourse." See A note regarding the Jargon dialog and English translations in "Moola John."
The word "Chinaman" appears nowhere on the cited Web site.
In regard to the quotation I removed, Mr. Pasco reports "I can say unequivocally that any of what he's saying is most certainly no quote of mine." Jeffreykopp (talk) 07:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It might not be on that site - but the story of a conversation between a Chinese man and a Swedish (or Norwegian?) one is somewhere in Pasco, 'cause it's his story; in your adaption of his publications to the net perhaps you saw fit to omit the story and/or the use of said word?  Because, funny, I remember reading it in just the last few months, on-line, and not on my own pages.  And the word "Chinaman" was definitely used, in the conversation cited by someone (if not in Pasco)).  Don't be disingenuous, you know this story exists because you've heard Duane tell the story, if not with "Chinaman" in it (which I have); in fact in the early days of the Chinook community, which you took part in the hounding-out of yours truly, this story was told at one of the two first "Lu'lus" whichy you attended.  You may have chosen not to put it in your website, or to repeat it, and may not like it much, or your memory maybe operating selectively, but I can't help you with those problems; what I can assert is that somewhere this story is told as an example of CJ usage by non-indigenous peoples leading to the integration of non-indigenous words into non-indigenous CJ usage.....I'll find the site in question; again, you may have chosen to excise it from the Chinook=reality as presented by your own selections of material, careful and pointedly tasteful though they may be....but I know you've heard it/seen it yourself.  And a postscript - how typical and rather sad your first edits of this article were a deletion, rather than an addition or simple correction; as an experienced Wikipedian I'm supposed to be welcoming, but I find it hard to do when I know the agenda behind another contributors (or in your case, deleters) and their past actions to represe and control information.  Unlike CHINOOK-L, Wikipedia is about inclusion, not exclusion, and it operates consensually, not under the control of one particular interest group as went down with CHINOOK-L.Skookum1 (talk) 14:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I remmber it being Pasco; if Duane denies that now it must have been another author - El Comancho maybe, though I don't recall any narratives in his book which is mostly a lexicon and history (and he's a source which in all your thoroughness you've chosen to ignore the existence of and/or to decide he's not "fit" to be taken seriously because your academic friends say "he's not indigenous enough" (those same academic friends also maintain that non-indigenous usage of the CJ is irrelevant and not worht studying, except as a means of ascertaining indiengous usage); again, maybe not Pasco, maybe not El Comancho, but the "Chinese person and a Scandinavian person" (to use the "politically" correct terminology - not quotation mark placement) is part of the lore surrounding Chinook.  Too bad you just wanted to delete the story instead of direct it to the correct citation, which I suspect you're all too aware of.....but just don't like.Skookum1 (talk) 14:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, so there is an El Comancho section on your site - here.  What happened to the moral opprobrium your group had previously attached to this source?Skookum1 (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Further to previous, funny that you can be in such denial about "Chinaman" being in the CJ when there are several native languages that use a form of it, borrowed expressly from CJ, that still use it or words adapted from it; these include Skwxwu7mesh and as I have just found out, also Tlingit.......you8 can p.c.-ify English all you want, and you have apparently purged "modern CJ" of it, but historic CJ and CJ loanwords in regional languages are proof of its historical usage.  But go write yourself papers saying otherwise and create a whole new citation-reality, and keep on sending notes back and forth about how awful I am and what a good thing it was I was stonewalled from your little club; all it does is prove how wrong you all are..."if only those intent on rewriting history would read some first".....erasing someone else's culture and history is no way to preserve your own.  A lack of honesty pervades much in modern CJ studies; I'm curious to read D. Robertson's revisions of all Barbara's materials in fact...now that he's "in charge" of CJ studies in BC....just as you (Mr. Kopp) have appointed yourself censor so often (how pathetic)..Skookum1 (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed erroneous quote/cite

message: Chinook Jargon use by English-language speakers was split off from this article unilaterally and was a POV fork; it's also wrong in presuming that only "English-language speakers" were the only other kind of non-indigenous users.  Also some linguists/academics maintain that Chinook was a continuum, and its use by "English-language speakers" (and German-language speakers, and Chinese-language speakers, and Hawaiian-language speakers, and Cree-language speakers, and Iroquoian-language speakers) are just as legitimately Chinook Jargon as any form spoken by native peoples.  This article (and the other one) needs major trimming of the long word list; but doing so is not helped by "segregating" non-indigenous usages to another page, a mistitlted and a-contextual page to boot.Skookum1 (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge discussion

message: I looked up IP Address 71.217.35.194, who placed the series of fact templates at apparently random through one of the text sections....while I grant some of hte langauge in there has a POV flavour, it's interseting that a number of the items challenged are supported by Jim Holton's book, which was just removed from the external links/further reading, e.g. the creolization at Grand Ronde with Klickitat etc.  I even found in various writings (not frmo the chinookology community though) a number of references to how the indigenous-language scholarship community and also band elderes/opliticians have been hostile to the study of CJ because of the threat it represented/s to oldder-language survival, and also because of its role in residential schols and in evangelization.  So it's all citable, though the published academics are more concerned with "proving" that hte native phonology is consistent/pervasive and that non-native speakere weren't really CJ speakers etc; much of this built on speculations expanded out of observations made only in teh core Columbai River area, or by extrapoliting hoped-for existence of the sxupposed prot-Jargon.  What I'm geting at is that while a lot of the published, and therefore citable material, is highly speculative and subjective in autre but can be cited, much other discussion is hidden in the listserve for CHINOOK (so not citable) or is tucked away in studies on other subjects and other languages.  So fine, there's a lot that ne4eds citation here; but it doesn't need half-a-dozen interpolary section-citation templates....anyway I traced the IP address, evidently someone from chinookology inc. who wants to remain nameless (how typical, how very typical), but who might turn up in CHINOOK-L by x-ref'ing Denver CO and maybe *.edu domains in that city/area.....the "Indianization" thing is all too citable, if I could only cite any one of twenty things that Tony has said in conference or in private or by phone; it was in fact a brag of the Grand Ronde revivalists that they had purged the old CJ of English words and replaced them with imports from other native languaegs in order to make it "more Indian".  And I'm sure this is even in Holton's book.....though like the back-pedalling about Chiense and Scandinavians (see above) it wouldn't surprse me to find out that he, too, had backpedalled to cover up the very evident prejudices in current academic chinookology; certainly their paranoias are on full display, as in the section above.  My end run around this citation challenge, of course, is to finally write that book about my experiences with the online CJ revival an the various illogics and suspect behaviorus/blacklisting I experienced in order for them "to protect the truth" ..... as if they had a monopoly on that, which they don't, especially when there are various truths they refuse to examine.....Skookum1 (talk) 02:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Massed {{tl|fact}} attack

message: Just a curiosity more than anything, but I think Kumtux Leelo is a name also found on the Computer Game Star Wars racer (Pod Racers) and as I recall he has wolf - like features.  It may have been taken from a Star Wars movie. Does anyone know if this is just a coincidence or can anyone confirm this in the Star wars Racer game? Dees anyone know if this is common that they revert to old languages in film production when looking for words or names that may sound alien? I found this interesting when I came across Kumtux, and I remembered that leelo or leelu is wolf!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markosjal (talk • contribs) 09:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Kumtux Leelo

message: I guess I never realized how much of this language I learned growing up in Portland. It would sadden me greatly to see it die. We must preserve every identifiable word. Even in Mexico A man claiming to be from Virginia said "Skookum" to me. I knew exactly what he meant, but I also knew that it was Wawa , and that it was highly improbable that he was from Virginia as he had previously told me. That led us to a discussion of Wawa, which he was unfamiliar with. I found out I was right, he was originally from British Columbia! I post this here because I do not know how to post it in support of my change on the page.  
http://books.google.com.mx/books?id=Oy8_5S8hMjAC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=indian+name+rooster+rock+state+park&source=bl&ots=7W1KANtnzT&sig=k6XRYgZ7ZtAlouUs6EYAj59NfjY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA102,M1
See bottom of page 102
This supports what I heard as a child, and I do not believe this to be disputable.;  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markosjal (talk • contribs) 23:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No doubt it's true, but between the historical recorders of CJ and the modern academics, who are very prurient in my experience, I've never come across that term before; although "wootlat" does show up.....you might want to add that citation to the Rooster Rock State Park article if there is one, though....Skookum1 (talk) 23:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Skookum1 I have heard that "wootlat" also in reference to rooster rock, now that you mention it. What do you know of this word (meaning and origin)? In fact "wootlat" in google led me to this link http://platial.com/tag/wootlat#post100425
Markosjal (talk) 17:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Wootlat is in Shaw or Gibbs or one of the other main lexicons, it's where I learned of it, AFAIK it wasn't used up my way (BC)...."mitwhit stick" (standing tree) is sometimes used for that context, though it can also mean a ship's spar or logging spar or anything else standing upright....Skookum1 (talk) 20:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

text: The difference between a glossary and a dictionary is subtle and often debated, but this list seems like more of a dictionary to me than a glossary (it is not specific to subject matter, and it is more about the words than about the topics they describe).  The use of particular words to illustrate specific points (French origins of certain subjects, or whatever) could perhaps be better handled in prose. But I won't claim to understand WikiProject Glossaries more deeply than having read a few old discussion threads and policy pages. Kingdon (talk) 17:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: iwash

message: I've removed the bit about Iona Campagnolo, who is no longer Lieutenant Governor and more importantly does NOT as far as I can tell speak CJ. If anyone has evidence that she does, please supply it. I suspect that this claim is based on the fact that when she was installed as Lieutenant Governor she spoke one sentence in CJ. However, that sentence was taken from Lillard and Glavin's book on CJ and is not evidence that can actually use CJ. See: http://thetyee.ca/Life/2006/01/10/StillSpeakChinook/.Bill (talk) 02:25, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Somewhere I saw a bit on her in the pess making mention that she had some familiarity with it from her life on the North Coast; sorry I can't be more specific, I know I saw it;  maybe not full fluency, but she said, AFAIR, that she did speak it at least some.  If I come across that again of course I'll be back with it.  "White jargon" is of debatable quality to linguists no doubt; another case might be Sir Richard McBride at his induction into the Tory leadership race for the 1903 election; story is he was pulled aside by other BCers and they all discussed strategy, and his leadership, in CJ without any of the eastern element at hte convention being able to understand what they said....that, I got from someone at the First CJ Lu'lu in Mission, maybe Terry Glavin.  Point is how fluent were they?  Could they simply converse in it, or was it like a second mother tongue, or just a particular blend of CJ and English words?  Barbara Harris at UVic had more on this, about McBride I mean; it's in the archives she assembled there of CJ materials, I think, but not yet mentioned in any academic paper SFAIK.  I'm in touch with Terry Glavin  so will ask him for whatever else there might be in print about Campgnolo's CJ ability.Skookum1 (talk) 02:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Iona Campagnolo

message: I've made a proposal for a Chinuk wawa Wikipedia over on Meta. Owen (talk) 19:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yay Owen! Nvolut (talk) 19:41, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia kʰapa chinuk wawa?

message: Re this:
:NB Wawa also means speech or words – "have a wawa" means "hold a parley" even in idiomatic English today ,
It's definitely old-fashioned, and as noted in the subsequent in-line comment, there's a passage in Bushby's journals from Begbie's visit to Lillooet, or what became Lillooet, in 1858 or '59, though there the spelling is "Waw-waw" and the phrasing is "we had a Waw-waw with them".  I'm from that area as well as from the Lower Mainland, and have heard several people use it, mostly older or "of a certain background" (rural).  It may not be how Jargon loan-words were used in Washington or Oregon, but it definitely was in BC; I'll see if I can find a copy of Bushby to at least cite that and put it in historical, if not current, context.  Part of the problem here is that this falls into the purview of the POV-fork article "Chinook Jargon use by English-language speakers", which someone split off (wrongly) a long time ago and which hasn't been "healed"...I'll also consult Terry Glavin, co-author of A Voice Great Within Us to see if it's either in that book or if he knows of any other cites for it.....the further bit, not quoted here, about "lelang" meaning "the tongue" directly, and not just language, is in Harper, Shaw, Gibbs, El Comancho and I'm surprised a citation request was added for that.....Skookum1 (talk) 00:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Have a wa-wa

message: I have read in this discussion that there is no right pronunciation, but could there be a more-conservative pronunciation or a more-English pronunciation just as an example? Even some details on the wrong pronunciation might do it. A detailed range of pronunciation variants would be useful and interesting. I'd like to know more about this speech, but as someone with a non-English name, i know better than most folks that pronunciation is not based on spelling, excepting some acronyms. Speaking of spelling, how consistent is the spelling? Are there silent letters? Is there a difference between <c> and <k>? Is <gh> one consonant or two? And so forth. --Leif Runenritzer (talk) 06:34, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Leif, there definitely can be such a thing as wrong pronunciation, I'll have to search that reference out elsewhere and reply there too, but for now, let me see if I can answer your question. The question is rooted in a particular source of confusion: old orthographies. Most of them aren't very consistent in their representation of sounds. Perhaps I can illustrate the difference this way: there are variants, and there are mispronunciation. For a word like lhatwa you can also find the variant lhatuwa and lhatu. All of these are words that are used and documented to be in use. There are many variants of words, which means that, in a sense, pronunciation is fluid. However, it would be a mistake to say there is no wrong pronunciation. Consider, for example, kha ("still") and qha ("where?"). kha is pronounced with an apirated velar stop (like our "k" sound in English), but qha is a uvular stop. To pronounce qha with a velar "k" sound would of course be wrong, and would of course mean something else.Nvolut (talk) 19:54, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation and spelling

message: User:Huon has started an AfD to get rid of the Skookum article; where the mentions of the Skookum doll and Skookum (cat) went and other citations that were on it went, I don't know, but now there's only the Skookum Tools ref left......which to me is emblematic and representative of the persaviness of the word and concept in modern local usage, and because its information on the meaning of the word is one of the only pages out there that's usable as a cite; the argument that that's not a linguistics cite is totally spurious; this isn't a a language article.  On pages about CJ usage by natives, yes, there are further definitions; but this is about non-native use and the presence of this word in NW culture/identity.  If only populist usages are there to be cited, it's a form of academic exclusionism.....though there is a Barbara Harris essay on the word out there somewhere, about its adoption into local English and so on....but instead of do some research and improve and cite the article, the deletionist agenda has seen nothing better to do than to try to get rid of it.....Skookum1 (talk) 02:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Skookum]] article up for AfD

message: I grow wear of the need to patrol this page for biases of the core-bias group, and given my health and age know it's time for me to let go.  That the POV fork to Chinook Jargon as used by English speakers has been allowed to stand and nobody else has questioned it says a lot to me of the inherent biases of most others around here, and the paucity of publications in the field that are independent of the biases circulated by the modern/GR group mean it's pointless in Wikipedia guideline/RS terms to try to hold forth here on all the things that are wrong with the premises here and in the sources.  That I never published in the field, or had the funding support to proceed with much-needed sourcing or extensive archives around BC that have gone ignored, speaks to the biases of the field and those who have made it into their own image.  Time for me to hang it up, anything I'd publish would be critiqued as "he's white anyway" so why bother?  one snotty edit comment from a newbie using GR spelling in his user name was enough to tick me off and...well. I'm done.  Have the playpen to youselves all you want now.  I'll try not to look and learn not to care.Skookum1 (talk) 06:43, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As I responded on my talk page, sorry for being "snotty", but I do stand by my edits.  I would also like to reiterate that it is highly inappropriate to accuse those who disagree with you of racial bias as many of us are multi-racial and many highly respected teachers, researchers, and students of the language are white.  Instead of accusing those who disagree with you of disliking white people perhaps you should consider why the words you write are being challenged.  Maybe the problem isn't that we're being reverse-racist (as if that's a real thing), but that what you're writing is inaccurate and/or offensive.  I appreciate that you often encourage others to examine their biases, but I think you should take care to do the same. pʼiɬiɬskin 22:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  de-watchlisted this page 

message: Does anyone have any sources on these?  Specifically, I'm wondering about Robert Service.  I know he used the term cheechako (chxi-chaku), but I can't find any info on him actually knowing the language.  It's of particular interest to me as he's a relative of mine.  Also, on an unrelated note, should this section just be called "Notable Speakers of Chinook Jargon"?  The page definitely has a white focus and I think it would be good to bring in notable Indians as well (Mungo Martin, Eula Petite, Frances Johnson, Charles Depoe etc etc).pʼiɬiɬskin 22:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Good questions! This may require a bit of research in print sources. We have two different audiences for  articles like this-- the linguists studying and documenting the languages, and the actual speakers and language learners themselves. I've been using the RNLD newsfeed to update language revitalization efforts. It's clear there's a need both for WP:RS and informed editors from the current language communties. Posting input on these talk pages is very helpful! Djembayz (talk) 14:01, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: that section title may be residue from the former POV fork article, in which non-native use ("English" was used though non-native speakers included Chinese, Japanese, Swedes, French etc) was segregated from native use.Skookum1 (talk) 06:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable non-natives known to speak Chinook Jargon 

message: This term was alleged to have been "not a word", but it is in use and was first heard by me from the late (?) Barbara Harris during our encounters in the early days of the "online Jargon revival"..... it has also been used, I believe, by Terry Glavin, who was co-author with Charles Lillard of A Voice Great Within Us.  Formation of words by adding -ology is not illegal in English.Skookum1 (talk) 06:18, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: "Chinookology" and "Chinookologists"

message: *Is Chinook Jargon a full-fledged language or not? I haven't been able to determine this. My apologies if this has already been discussed elsewhere. Wolfdog (talk) 23:33, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full-fledged language 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Title. the table is ugly, it's overly defined with English pronunciations, sorted alphabetically and not by place of articulation, and inconsisttent with Wikipedia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omoutuazn (talk • contribs) 02:48, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: done, partially - but this still needs improvement Stan traynor (talk) 20:28, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The IPA here is a mess 

message: I added some references as requested in the section for words used by English-language speakers, especially the controversial Siwash. Hopefully for the better. Fimbriata (talk) 20:00, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Touch up 

message: This article doesn’t give any information about the language! I came across Chinook in an article about the evolution of French. The author Raymond Queneau observed that in the previous 50 years, the syntax of spoken French had altered radically and he claimed that this form of the language, which he termed néo-français or troisième français, resembled Chinook. A typical sentence consisted of a list of substantives followed by a “skeleton” sentence with pronouns replacing the substantives. Example ‘’Le gendarme, le voleur il l’a attrapé’’ ("The policeman, the thief, he caught him” for "The policeman caught the thief"). The phenomenon, which I have observed myself, doesn't happen in English nor as far as I can see in other European languages. See https://www.grin.com/document/323136 for details. I would have liked to see if this is indeed also the case with Chinook.
Franciscus montmartinensis (talk) 16:43, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe you are looking for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinookan_languages . Chinook and Chinook Jargon are seperate but related things. Friendofcacti (talk) 19:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes but what is this language like? 

message: @SMcCandlish Recently, I changed the number of "native speakers" listed in the language infobox from "More than 640 (at least 3 native adult speakers alive in 2019 based on estimates from the Chinook Jargon Listserv archives)" to "1". Shortly afterwards, you removed the listing of just one native speaker saying "Claiming there is exactly one speaker is also unsourced speaker information, and almost certainly wrong."
I was surprised by this because I thought the source that I had provided a source, specifically the Atlas of Pidgin and Creole Language Structures Online (APICS), through the template's ref parameter. Additionally, I think there is an important distinction to be made between native speakers and speakers who have learned the Chinook Jargon as a second language.
Sources, including the APICS one I mentioned earlier do point towards there being a second language community for Chinook Jargon. Specifically, the APICS source suggests "maybe 1000 people with L2 knowledge (via oral or written means)" and the self-report 2009-2013 American Community Survey currently cited in the article estimated 20-70 people spoke Chinook Jargon at home in the United States. As to there being precisely 1 native speaker living, a situation where the exact number of native living speakers is known isn't uncommon for endangered Native American languages, compare the Upper Chinook language where the number of remaining native speakers was precisely tracked and known over time as they died.
If there are some additional details about my initial edit which explain why it was partially undone, I would be interested in learning about those. Thanks and take care. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 19:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: My bad; I've restored your "1". I didn't notice that the  parameter has output that is specifically attached to the output of the  parameter (which is frankly pretty weird infobox coding), or that  outputs a specifically "native" speakers claim (which is confusing since the parameter doesn't match its rendered name, and probably not helpful anyway, since I doubt our readers care much about number of people who knew a language since childhood versus number of people who actually know a language, and at any rate our readers probably care much more about the latter). Since Chinook Jargon is a trade pidgin or creole, it seems dubious that it is the first language of anyone at all, even if there remains a speaker who has known it since they were little as a second language learned alongside their first. The entire notion of "native speaker" in a case like this is kind of dubious, and the infobox presently suggesting that there is only 1 speaker is misleading, and would basically mean that this is a dead language (a language you can't speak or write intelligibly with anyone else in the world is already dead for all intents and purposes). Anyway, at very least the second-language learning material you mention from APICS and ACS is probably worth adding to the article. But the infobox also supports  to add information on total speakers, or another option is using  to remove "native" from the output of  and use a larger number there. I think we should do something to make it clearer to a reader of the infobox that there is not just one speaker left.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:10, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of living native speakers