Talk:Ruthenian language

message: Two of them started to collect the East Slavic territories: one in Moscow and one in Halych. These activities resulted in two separate mainly East Slavic states, the Grand Duchy of Moscow, which eventually evolved into the Russian Empire, and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, - that is not even close. Halych was a capital of Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia and it was not a "former" of Grand Duchy of Lithuania but "falled" under it (partly). Volhynia became a part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Galicia became part of Kingdom of Poland. (English is not my native so I won't correct main text, but such mistakes must be removed).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.44.30.18 (talk) 09:19, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  As stated in History of the Russian language: "Much annalistic, hagiographic, and poetic material survives from the early Muscovite period. Nonetheless, a significant amount of philosophic and secular literature is known to have been destroyed after being proclaimed heretical... Modern Russian literature is considered to have begun in the 17th century, with the autobiography of Avvakum and a corpus of chronique scandaleuse short stories from Moscow." So the modern literature began in the 17th century, but many written Russian sources exist from the earlier times. --Off-shell (talk) 07:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "Literary" typically means standardized, and the Russian language was not standardized in the 17th century.Faustian (talk) 21:26, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Literary language: "A literary language is a register or dialect of a language that is used in literary writing...The difference between literary and non-literary forms is more marked in some languages than in others." And according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/literary "literary" means "Of, relating to, or dealing with literature" or "Appropriate to literature rather than everyday speech or writing". The latter meaning usually implies "formal", but the former meaning is also applicable, i.e. simply "the language used in literature". --Off-shell (talk) 22:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You are confusing "modern Russian literature" with "literary language."  Russian language states "The standard form of Russian is generally regarded as the modern Russian literary language (современный русский литературный язык). It arose in the beginning of the 18th century with the modernization reforms of the Russian state under the rule of Peter the Great, and developed from the Moscow (Middle or Central Russian) dialect substratum under the influence of some of the previous century's Russian chancellery language." So while literature was produced in the 17th century, it was not written in the literary language, which did not yet exist, but presumably in the colloquial language.Faustian (talk) 04:42, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  The key word in your quote is modern. Yes, the modern Russian literary language arose in the 18th century. Whether the language of the medieval Russian literature was the same as the colloquial one, this I don't know. In any case, to avoid confusion, I think one can replace "literary language" by "written language" in this section. --Off-shell (talk) 19:23, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  What a mess... 

message: page 81:
1362. The Slavonic languages, so far as is at present known, may be regarded as forming three branches: 1. The Russo-Illyrian. 2. The Bohemo-Polish. 3. The Wendo-Lithuanian.
So, I delete:
"In some other sources, mainly from 18-19th centuries. F.e. in The British Annals of Education, 1844, Wendo-Ruthenian, Wendo-Lithuanian, Germano-Slavic (Germano-Slavonic) language".
— Yuriy Dzyаdyk (t•c),  18:50, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The British Annals of Education 

message: Let's get an alphabet into the article, along with the one for Old East Slavic, while we're at it.
It's inconvenient for readers to have to circle back to the Old Cyrillic Alphabet page, especially when it definitely would've changed by this point.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by UkrainianSavior1 (talk • contribs) 05:33, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alphabet 

message: The material in this new section can be mentioned herein, but it rightly belongs to the subject of the article Rusyn language. —Michael Z. 19:41, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that information is quite relevant for the article on Rusyn language. I was expecting to find some more information on those processes (ISO), but in any case, I could add the presently available information in that article too. Sorabino (talk) 02:07, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I’m suggesting you delete the section and move the text there since this article is about a different subject. Their names have been applied different ways in different periods, but the respective articles’ subjects are clear and distinct. —Michael Z. 18:35, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, now I understand your suggestion. The way you formulated your first (initial) remark did not indicate such reduction, but I guess that some clarification should be made. Since the ISO process in question is related to the term Ruthenian language, it seems to me that some information related to that process is relevant for this article too. I would agree that some aspects of that ISO process are not directly relevant to the main subject of the article on Ruthenian language, but it seems to me that other (terminological) aspects of the same process, that are relevant (proposal from November 2020), should not be removed from this article? Sorabino (talk) 23:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  The ISO process 

message: dear Mzajac, there is no mention of linguist, philologist George Shevelov anywhere in the main article anymore, although he is in the references. should his language periodization be re-included? thanks ~ Johnfreez (talk) 10:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the periodization of the Ukrainian language as a whole, not Ruthenian specifically. It makes more sense to mention this periodization in the Ukrainian language article (as it covers 11th century to the present). Why did you not directly ask the person who removed it? After all, you are still following their edits. Mellk (talk) 11:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It’s a periodization of this subject language, in a particular context. It’s certainly not “irrelevant.”  —Michael Z. 13:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: . The subject is Ruthenian language. Ukrainian and Ruthenian are not the same. It is only relevant for Ukrainian language history. Mellk (talk) 13:58, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the article more carefully. Ruthenian represents an important historical phase of both Belarusian and Ukrainian.  —Michael Z. 14:10, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This does not mean that anything about the Belarusian or Ukrainian languages should be mentioned in this particular article. What is the relevance of these phases from  pre-11th century or present day here? It would be good to have an expansion of the article on the dialects, but we do not need the entire history of either modern language mentioned. Mellk (talk) 14:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Patent nonsense. Of course things about Ukrainian should be mentioned in the article about Ruthenian or Middle Ukrainian. It is a historical phase of the same language. And the actual passage concerns this language, its ancestors, and its descendants.  —Michael Z. 19:14, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is not about "Middle Ukrainian". The redaction found in Lithuanian statutes and chronicles for example was closer to modern Belarusian, hence they are often called Lithuanian-Belarusian. This article is not about a historical phase of Ukrainian specifically (or Ukrainian as a whole), hence the passage does not belong to the section about the periodization of Ruthenian (15 c. to 18 c.) and only makes sense in limited contexts about Ukrainian specifically. Mellk (talk) 19:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: So in your opinion this article is about historical Belarusian and Lithuanian language and not Ukrainian? Or what? I disagree. I believe its subject includes the ancestor language, including all of its dialects, of Belarusian, Rusyn, and Ukrainian languages. If you want to change its scope, please call an RFC.  —Michael Z. 20:45, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not arguing that Ukrainian is not related. I am saying that mentioning one periodization of the entire history of the Ukrainian language out of context in this article should be removed. If one periodization of the history of the Belarusian language was also added, this would create even more confusion, as neither cover Ruthenian specifically and therefore look contradictory without proper context. A periodization such as what is given by Daniel Bunčić for example (which is specifically about Ruthenian as a whole) is what can be included. Mellk (talk) 08:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding context to information about the subject seems a better way to improve this start-class article than deleting relevant information that places the subject within its academic context (specifically, relating it to a parent subject). I agree it looks unbalanced, but that’s because so much more is still missing too.  —Michael Z. 14:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

text: "Old Ukrainian" is also the typical term for specific dialects during this time period. Mellk (talk) 19:42, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: For a specific dialect of Ruthenian? Okay. Please cite this as it would be another valuable addition to the article.  —Michael Z. 20:33, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  language periodization of [[George Shevelov]], linguist, philologist