Talk:Abortion/Archive 13

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Abortion terminology
The intense and virulent debate surrounding the subject of abortion has created a number of linguistic pitfalls, where the usage of certain terms can imply additional meaning beyond the strictest definition of the used term. A common linguistic pitfall is the use of the term "human", which can imply an organism with human DNA, or an individual person. Similar implications surround the use of the terms "life" and "death". These terms may be used to determine the state of biological functionality, or may be used to further imply the state personhood. The terms "fetus" and "unborn" both refer to the same thing, but sometimes are taken to imply non-personhoood or personhood respectivly.
This was my latest attempt at fixing this little quagmire. It was removed in a spout of vandalism reversion. Despite this being my brainchild, I'm undecided whether its worth putting back in. I figure we can restore it, send it to the folks at Abortion Debate, or just wipe it out entirely. Thoughts?--Tznkai 17:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's your baby, Tznkai, so it's really your call. On the one hand, it acts something like a talisman to ward off both well-meaning, unintentionally POV edits and fully-intentional, egregious soapboaxing; on the other hand, is it just needless prefacing that contributes little in the way of direct information on abortion, laws, statistics, etc.? Don't know. --Kyd 21:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminology section: 

message: The discussion of treaties and international law was too specific, involved, and overwhelming to be included in the abortion law summary of the top-tier abortion article. I have moved all the relevant text to abortion law. --Kyd 19:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved International Law Discussion 

message: Here's the draft of the summary for the history of abortion section. I'm not sure if I am entirely pleased with the result: I veered away from discussing the social, legal, or ethical aspects of abortion, as those are better served in Abortion Law and Abortion Debate. Instead, I stuck to discussing it from a purely medical perspective, attempting to expand upon the primitive methods of abortion mentioned in the current paragraph. I perhaps focused too much herbal abortion and would like to discuss the 20th century. Thoughts?
P.S. It would make a really great illustrative element if someone could dredge up an example of one of the 19th-century advertisements mentioned in the last paragraph. Such things should,  of course, be in the public domain.
History of abortion
The practice of induced abortion, according to some anthropologists, can be traced to ancient times. There is evidence to suggest that, historically, pregnancies were terminated through a number of methods, including the administration of abortifacient herbs, the use of sharpened implements, the application of abdominal pressure, and other techniques.
Soranus, a 2nd century Greek physician, suggested in his work Gynaecology that women wishing to abort their pregnancies should engage in violent exercise, energetic jumping, carrying heavy objects, and riding animals. He also prescribed a number of recipes for herbal bathes,  pessaries, and bloodletting, but advised against the use of sharp instruments to induce miscarriage due to the risk of organ perforation. 
It is also known that the ancient Greeks relied upon the herb silphium as both a contraceptive and an abortifacient. The plant, as the chief export of Cyrene, was driven to extinction, but it is suggested that it might have possessed the same abortive properties as some of its closest extant relatives in the Apiaceae family.
Such folk remedies, however, varied in effectiveness and were not without risk. Tansy and pennyroyal, for example, are two poisonous herbs with serious side effects that have at times been used to terminate pregnancy.
19th-century medicine saw advances in the fields of surgery, anaesthesia, and sanitation, in the same era that doctors with the American Medical Association lobbied for bans on abortion in The United States and the British Parliament passed the Offences Against the Person Act. Demand for the procedure continued, however, as the disguised, but nonetheless open, advertisement of abortion services in Victorian times would seem to suggest. 
-Kyd 03:40, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this text satisfactory? If so, I'll go ahead and add it to the article (Yeah, I'm a lot bolder on talk pages than I am in the editing of actual articles. Total mouse.) -Kyd 20:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks great to me. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 11:58, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History draft 

message: I've given it some thought and I've been compelled that Fetal pain is infact a relevant idea. However, I don't think it deserves its own section. I'd like to roll an "effect on the fetus" sentance into each section of the procedures. However, this is a very touchy situation because of the potential for abuse. Or perhaps a section on effects of abortion cross refrenced against time line of fetal development. I'd like everyone to input here on a possible structure and some ground rules before we start building the improvments in article.--Tznkai 17:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It definitely does not warrant a seperate section. I think we should divide the abortion methods section based upon the trimester and/or week frame within which each method is used. In this manner, we can roll in discussion of fetal pain into the time period in which scientific evidence seems to suggest that such information would be relevant (3rd trimester, probably), and in so doing avoid overgeneralized alarmism. -Kyd 20:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem with that is that no one is sure. General consensus is that at 20 weeks, with minority views ranging from 10 all the way to 24 weeks, the anatomy is there. Only one study I could locate is addressing the question of whether the fetus is aware as well as developed enough to feel anything - the equivalent of being 'passed out cold' - although it seems to be a known issue with answering the question (when?). KillerChihuahua 11:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fetal pain and health risks vis a vis the fetus 

message: 1) Shorter is better
2) This takes care of the very rare case where one twin is aborted but the pregnancy continues, as well as the case where twins are aborted.
Rick Norwood 23:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Simpler first line, per Ann's suggestion above.