Talk:Middle power

message: I think there should be a new category, one for those major middle powers that are obviously stronger than their counterparts but weaker then a great power which would be called an "Advanced Power" which is just in between the two. I think countries such as Brazil, Canada, Australia, India, Germany, Japan, and other major countries of that range should be included into this new category of "Advanced Power".--Collingwood26 (talk) 10:07, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Advanced Power

message: To the IP who has now reverted 4 times today:  let's discuss what you're trying to do here on the talk page.  Otherwise you're going to end up blocked.  Lesser Cartographies (talk) 06:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:3RR]] Warning 

message: It's already a new that Japan and Germany are great powers.If i well remember they lack a lot in military (Germany can be compared to Italy as military) and other things.You cite Malta as middle power!!!!!151.40.7.192 (talk) 08:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour ♪ talk ♪ 01:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Malta a middle power??? 

message: Sudan has no place within this document. I'm afraid to say it has very few characteristics that are associated with a Middle Power. Sudan is riddled with internal issues and rarely expresses any influence outside of its boarders. The country recently split in half due to instability causing the breakup of the nation. It has no economic clout, with its GDP per capita less then that of Palestine (a largely unrecognized state). It is located next to Egypt, a far more dominant country on every scale. Its military is respectable by African standards, but relies on outdated Soviet machinery. There is no supporting citations listed on the page. The simple question is this; If Sudan is a Middle Power, who is listening to it? --31.205.7.72 (talk) 02:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sudan as a Middle Power? 

message: Someone deleted Italy... it should be reintegrated in the list.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.20.200.4 (talk) 18:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who deleted Italy from the list? 

message: User:Cityinfonorns keeps changing the referenced information on the "List of middle powers". --IIIraute (talk) 03:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disruptive editing  

message: I was told by a fellow editor to put this into discussion, but quite frankly I think the case for Indonesia as a Leading Middle Power is pretty strong. 
FACTS:   - G20 member (17 out of the 19 national members of G20 are at least ranked as Leading Middle Power  - 15th/16th largest economy   - ASEAN secretariat   - 4th most populous nation   - its secondary/industrial sector of economy is in the top 10  - Major Regional Power of South East Asia
ARTICLES: Indonesia emerges as powerhouse: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/emerging-markets/Emerging+Markets+Indonesia+emerges+powerhouse/9039107/story.html
World Bank Blog: Underrated Indonesia poised to enter global stage : http://blogs.worldbank.org/category/tags/emerging-powers
--Ryopus (talk) 01:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indonesia as a Leading Middle Power 

message: Is there any reference or citation that describes the term within the article? Furthermore, are there any citations within the article that make the distinction between which countries are considered "leading middle powers" and which ones are not? Because if not, then it doesn't belong here. Antiochus the Great (talk) 11:07, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Issue resolved thanks to the recent edits by Barjimoa. Thanks. Antiochus the Great (talk) 21:21, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: "Leading middle power"

message: Broad consensus among academics is that neither are great powers and none of the sources you provide specifically state that they are. For example, the G7 may well be a forum of discussion for great powers, but that is not the same as saying Italy and Canada are great powers - because the G7 may well include both great and middle powers while still qualifying as a forum for great powers (because at-least some great powers are present). Instead of edit-warring poorly sourced material, which currently constitutes WP:OR, I suggest you talk it out here first. Antiochus the Great (talk) 15:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Also Yogurto, per Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, the onus is now on you to discuss the matter here and let the community reach a consensus on how to proceed. Antiochus the Great (talk) 15:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

text: Thanks for taking the matter to the talk page Yogurto, and no apologies necessary for your English. I understand what your saying very well! You make some compelling arguments, especially that the section is called "Overlaps between great powers and middle powers" and as such, it is possible that we could include Italy and Canada there. However, I still think we should wait perhaps a day or two more to allow other editors time to come here and express their opinions. For now, I will continue to study the sources you have provided. Cheers. Antiochus the Great (talk) 13:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

text: I agree with Yogurto. We have a reasonable number of sources to include Italy, Canada and maybe Brazil in that section.
*http://cartographie.sciences-po.fr/sites/default/files/17_2_g8etchine_droite.jpg  (Yogurto/Italy and Canada listed among Great powers)
*http://www.ladocumentationfrancaise.fr/catalogue/3303331600596/index.shtml (Yogurto/Italy as a great power)
*http://www.g8.utoronto.ca/scholar/kirton198901/kcon1.htm) (Yogurto/Italy and Canada seen as countries having Great power status)
And i have a new source.
*http://www.hcss.nl/reports/why-are-pivot-states-so-pivotal-the-role-of-pivot-states-in-regional-and-global-security/150/ (Italy and Canada listed among Great powers. It talks also about Brazil)
It makes sense to distinguish G7 nations and BRIC states from the other middle powers.
01opportunity (talk) 14:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hardly the most convincing sources with little clarity. At best, a fringe view -see WP:FRINGE. Perhaps seek thoughts/consensus from the community before making such bold edits. See WP:BRD for how I think we should now proceed with this issue. Cheers.Antiochus the Great (talk) 22:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: .@.151.40.119.193 Can you discuss the issue here and gain community consensus rather than make edits against our policies and guidelines? Thanks.Antiochus the Great (talk) 14:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Antiochus the Great (talk). I agree with @.151.40.119.193 and with Yogurto. If you guys prefer another version. Here's one i can agree with:
====Overlaps between great powers and middle powers====
The overlaps between the lists of middle powers and great powers show that there is no unanimous agreement among authorities.Mehmet Ozkan. "A NEW APPROACH TO GLOBAL SECURITY: PIVOTAL MIDDLE POWERS AND GLOBAL POLITICS" Perceptions: Journal of International Affairs XI.1 (2006): 77-95
Nations such as China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States are generally considered to be great powers due to their economic, military and strategic importance, their status as recognised nuclear powers and their permanent seats on the UN Security Council. 
Yet sources have at times referred to France, Russia, the United Kingdom as middle powers too:
* ="Europeand Sussex, both the UK and France were great powers now reduced to middle power status.
* 
* P. Shearman, M. Sussex, European Security After 9/11(Ashgate, 2004) - According to Shearman and Sussex, both the UK and France were great powers now reduced to middle power status.
Some academics also believe that Germany and Japan are great powers, but due to their large advanced economies and global influence as opposed to military and strategic capabilities. Although broad academic support for India as a great power is uncommon, some in the field of political science, such as Malik Mohan and Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, consider India to be a great power.Strategic Vision: America & the Crisis of Global Power by Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, pp 43–45. Published 2012. Germany, Japan and India have been also described as middle powers:
* Otte M, Greve J (2000) A Rising Middle Power?: German Foreign Policy in Transformation, 1989-1999, St. Martin's Press
* Robert W. Cox, 'Middlepowermanship, Japan, and Future World Order, International Journal, Vol. 44, No. 4 (1989), pp. 823-862.Soeya Yoshihide, 'Diplomacy for Japan as a Middle Power, Japan Echo, Vol. 35, No. 2 (2008), pp. 36-41.
* Charalampos Efstathopoulosa, 'Reinterpreting India's Rise through the Middle Power Prism', Asian Journal of Political Science, Vol. 19, Issue 1 (2011), p. 75: 'India's role in the contemporary world order can be optimally asserted by the middle power concept. The concept allows for distinguishing both strengths and weakness of India's globalist agency, shifting the analytical focus beyond material-statistical calculations to theorise behavioural, normative and ideational parameters.'Robert W. Bradnock, India's Foreign Policy since 1971 (The Royal Institute for International Affairs, London: Pinter Publishers, 1990), quoted in Leonard Stone, 'India and the Central Eurasian Space', Journal of Third World Studies, Vol. 24, No. 2, 2007, p. 183: 'The U.S. is a superpower whereas India is a middle power. A superpower could accommodate another superpower because the alternative would be equally devastating to both. But the relationship between a superpower and a middle power is of a different kind. The former does not need to accommodate the latter while the latter cannot allow itself to be a satellite of the former."Jan Cartwright, 'India's Regional and International Support for Democracy: Rhetoric or Reality?', Asian Survey, Vol. 49, No. 3 (May/June 2009), p. 424: 'India’s democratic rhetoric has also helped it further establish its claim as being a rising "middle power." (A "middle power" is a term that is used in the field of international relations to describe a state that is not a superpower but still wields substantial influence globally. In addition to India, other "middle powers" include, for example, Australia and Canada.)'
Some in the field of international relations, such as Professor Kirton and a Sciences Po academic, support the uncommon claim that Italy and Canada deserve the status of great powers due to their inclusion in the G7. Russia and the Great PowersThe Seven-Power Summit as an International Concert  Moreover, in a 2014 HCSS report, Italy has been listed among the Great Powers. Why are Pivot states so Pivotal?
*Behringer RM (2005) Middle Power Leadership on the Human Security Agenda, SAGECrosby AD (1997) A Middle-Power Military in Alliance: Canada and NORAD, JSTORPetersen K (2003) Quest to Reify Canada as a Middle Power, Dissident Voice
* "Operation Alba may be considered one of the most important instances in which Italy has acted as a regional power, taking the lead in executing a technically and politically coherent and determined strategy." See Federiga Bindi, Italy and the European Union (Washington, D.C.: Brookings Institution Press, 2011), p. 171."Italy plays a prominent role in European and global military, cultural and diplomatic affairs. The country's European political, social and economic influence make it a major regional power." See Italy: Justice System and National Police Handbook, Vol. 1 (Washington, D.C.: International Business Publications, 2009), p. 9.
And I think that we can can find sources to put Brazil near Canada and Italy.
01opportunity (talk) 15:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

text: Thanks 01opportunity, that is an excellent revision and something we can certainly use. It satisfies the policies I had issues with. Thanks again.Antiochus the Great (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Italy and Canada: Edits by Yogurto

message: The overlaps between the lists of middle powers and great powers show that there is no unanimous agreement among authorities.Mehmet Ozkan. "A NEW APPROACH TO GLOBAL SECURITY: PIVOTAL MIDDLE POWERS AND GLOBAL POLITICS" Perceptions: Journal of International Affairs XI.1 (2006): 77-95
Nations such as China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States are generally considered to be great powers due to their economic, military and strategic importance, their status as recognised nuclear powers and their permanent seats on the UN Security Council. 
Yet sources have at times referred to France, Russia, the United Kingdom as middle powers too:
* ="Europeand Sussex, both the UK and France were great powers now reduced to middle power status.
* 
* P. Shearman, M. Sussex, European Security After 9/11(Ashgate, 2004) - According to Shearman and Sussex, both the UK and France were great powers now reduced to middle power status.
Some academics also believe that Germany and Japan are great powers, but due to their large advanced economies and global influence as opposed to military and strategic capabilities. Although broad academic support for India as a great power is uncommon, some in the field of political science, such as Malik Mohan and Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, consider India to be a great power.Strategic Vision: America & the Crisis of Global Power by Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, pp 43–45. Published 2012. Germany, Japan and India have been also described as middle powers:
* Otte M, Greve J (2000) A Rising Middle Power?: German Foreign Policy in Transformation, 1989-1999, St. Martin's Press
* Robert W. Cox, 'Middlepowermanship, Japan, and Future World Order, International Journal, Vol. 44, No. 4 (1989), pp. 823-862.Soeya Yoshihide, 'Diplomacy for Japan as a Middle Power, Japan Echo, Vol. 35, No. 2 (2008), pp. 36-41.
* Charalampos Efstathopoulosa, 'Reinterpreting India's Rise through the Middle Power Prism', Asian Journal of Political Science, Vol. 19, Issue 1 (2011), p. 75: 'India's role in the contemporary world order can be optimally asserted by the middle power concept. The concept allows for distinguishing both strengths and weakness of India's globalist agency, shifting the analytical focus beyond material-statistical calculations to theorise behavioural, normative and ideational parameters.'Robert W. Bradnock, India's Foreign Policy since 1971 (The Royal Institute for International Affairs, London: Pinter Publishers, 1990), quoted in Leonard Stone, 'India and the Central Eurasian Space', Journal of Third World Studies, Vol. 24, No. 2, 2007, p. 183: 'The U.S. is a superpower whereas India is a middle power. A superpower could accommodate another superpower because the alternative would be equally devastating to both. But the relationship between a superpower and a middle power is of a different kind. The former does not need to accommodate the latter while the latter cannot allow itself to be a satellite of the former."Jan Cartwright, 'India's Regional and International Support for Democracy: Rhetoric or Reality?', Asian Survey, Vol. 49, No. 3 (May/June 2009), p. 424: 'India’s democratic rhetoric has also helped it further establish its claim as being a rising "middle power." (A "middle power" is a term that is used in the field of international relations to describe a state that is not a superpower but still wields substantial influence globally. In addition to India, other "middle powers" include, for example, Australia and Canada.)'
Some in the field of international relations, such as Professor Kirton and a Sciences Po academic, support the uncommon claim that Italy and Canada deserve the status of great powers due to their inclusion in the G7. Russia and the Great PowersThe Seven-Power Summit as an International Concert  Moreover, in a 2014 HCSS report, Italy has been listed among the Great Powers. Why are Pivot states so Pivotal?
*Behringer RM (2005) Middle Power Leadership on the Human Security Agenda, SAGECrosby AD (1997) A Middle-Power Military in Alliance: Canada and NORAD, JSTORPetersen K (2003) Quest to Reify Canada as a Middle Power, Dissident Voice
* "Operation Alba may be considered one of the most important instances in which Italy has acted as a regional power, taking the lead in executing a technically and politically coherent and determined strategy." See Federiga Bindi, Italy and the European Union (Washington, D.C.: Brookings Institution Press, 2011), p. 171."Italy plays a prominent role in European and global military, cultural and diplomatic affairs. The country's European political, social and economic influence make it a major regional power." See Italy: Justice System and National Police Handbook, Vol. 1 (Washington, D.C.: International Business Publications, 2009), p. 9.
And I think that we can can find sources to put Brazil near Canada and Italy.
01opportunity (talk) 15:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks 01opportunity, that is an excellent revision and something we can certainly use. It satisfies the policies I had issues with. Thanks again.Antiochus the Great (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Overlaps between great powers and middle powers

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Azerbaijan has no place within this document. I'm afraid to say it has very few characteristics that are associated with a Middle Power. While it's the richest country in the Caucasus, the only countries it has influenced are Georgia and Armenia, the latter of which is in war with Azerbaijan. It has no economic clout, with its GDP (nominal, 2015) being less then that of Ethiopia (a very poor state). It borders with Russia and Iran, and both are far more dominant countries on every scale. The simple question is this: If Azerbaijan is a Middle Power, who is listening to it? --Funny Gardaland (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In fact, Azerbaijan ONLY considers itself to be an important player. It's not in reality. --Funny Gardaland (talk) 04:30, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well someone just added Azerbaijan to the list again... what are your views on that? Should we delete it from the list? Thanks Pyruvate (talk) 15:41, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why I deleted Azerbaijan 

message: Ireland produces many products, most notably beer. It's 43th in the 2015 GDP count. Diplomacy and relationships are an integral part of power. Ireland's close alliance with the UK makes it more important. Independent of this relationship, Ireland is still a far greater power than, say, Hungary in every discernible way. Ireland arguably is a middle power, relative to its ranking compared to other countries. --Funny Gardaland (talk) 11:07, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You keep apologising for not finding sources but keep adding contentious countries, even admitting in edit summaries "I can't find sources". That is not acceptable. I dispute the inclusion of several unsourced countries you have added, such as Ireland and Kuwait. Please find sources or they will be removed. AusLondonder (talk) 09:04, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

text: If you tell me which countries to remove, I'll delete them myself. --Funny Gardaland (talk) 09:22, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: A source from the Irish Times is inadequate to include Ireland in this article. Especially since the article provides no list of sources to support the claim that "Analysts refer to Ireland’s position as a “middle power”." Antiochus the Great (talk) 15:51, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ireland 

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message: Bangladesh is a middle power, please add it to the list. Source: https://www.clingendael.org/pub/2018/strategic-monitor-2018-2019/a-balancing-act/ 144.48.111.211 (talk) 15:45, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Table 7" shown in that article is rather interesting, rating middle powers from emerging to established, perhaps we should reflect that here. – Þjarkur (talk) 17:05, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done BlackcurrantTea (talk) 07:22, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 May 2019 

message: Hi all, it's been recently shown that middle powers can be traced back to antiquity, with instances in ancient China, Greece, India, and Rome. Here's the academic publication that attests as much, with historical evidence, though I cannot modify the sentence in the introductory paragraph and add this reference:
Gabriele Abbondanza, 'The historical determination of the middle power concept', in Rethinking Middle Powers in the Asian Century: New Theories, New Cases, edited by T.S. de Swielande, D. Vandamme, D. Walton, and T.S. Wilkins  (London: Routledge, 2019), pp. 32-44.
Here's the link to Routledge's chapter: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/e/9780429463846/chapters/10.4324/9780429463846-3
Could someone modify the sentence relating to the origins of middle powers and add this reference?
Thanks, Manabeast333 (talk) 02:41, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of the middle power concept 

message: Where is Brazil or is it a great power already? Nlivataye (talk) 17:05, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazil? 

message: Angola , which has very little influence in Africa , is a middle power but Ethiopia , where the HQs of the African Union are and has a ton of influence, is not a middle power. This is absurd. I recommend Ethiopia as a middle power on this list as well. Any other opinions are welcome Sobhan mohapatra (talk) 09:00, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sobhan mohapatra- I think the reason which Angola listed as a middle power (even just a least powerful role) is because a particular scholar reference defined it is.  Otherwise, I personally do not consider Bangladesh, Iraq, Sri Lanca, Kuwait, or Peru having anything near the range of middle powers as well, many of them are still among the least developed countries. LVTW2 (talk) 09:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why not Ethiopia? 

message: How is Egypt not a middle power here when Angola or Morocco are? 169.255.185.34 (talk) 09:17, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Africa 

message: According to the www.globalfirepower.com Pakistan rank 9th in military power. 39.52.154.85 (talk) 01:56, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pakistan is not a middle power. 

message: Hello, South Korea's reference number 102 link isn't working, it sends to an error page. Could someone please fix it? Thanks. 95.245.58.101 (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourh Korea reference n⁰ 102 not working. 

message: The list should be updated for the emergence of Turkey as a new Great Power? Turkey is the second largest army in NATO. It has many foreign military bases in its region. Also very young population (Median age is only 30) and diverse highly industrial economy. Its GDP (PPP) is currently 11th in the world. Which is larger than Italy and only behind France. It has very high HDI index and Life expectancy in Turkey is higher than USA. It has also the fastest growing population in Europe with 1.3 million newborns each year. The country is capable of producing advanced drones, helicopters. An aircraft carrier is under construction. Also its past as a great power (Ottoman Empire) gives the country significant soft power and political influence in Eastern Europe, Western Asia and Middle East.  Many academics and think tanks already considering the country as a Great Power for the past 10 years. I think this article can be updated. Since considering Turkey as a 'Middle Power' is not very correct for the current political situation. I would like to hear your opinion.
:Name these academics.--Dawud  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:B011:9:3DF1:302A:FB63:2C40:8567 (talk) 01:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emergence of Turkey as a Great Power 

message: It's the same source that classifies Kazakhstan and Kuwait as middle powers, but they are listed in the article, while Angola, Bangladesh, Morocco & Sri Lanka aren't listed. Adamnewwikipedianaccount (talk) 12:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Angola, Bangladesh, Morocco & Sri Lanka being classified as middle powers according to one source 

message: It could be argued that Morocco has a stronger influence on African affairs 37.201.198.158 (talk) 15:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kenya and Algeria but not Morocco?