Talk:List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/Archive 3

message: Is she a lesbian? I have seen websites where she denies it, although I understand her character on CSI is a lesbian (correct me if I'm wrong).
She played a lesbian on ER. I believe her character on CSI is straight.
:Well if her character in CSI is a lesbian, then Grissom must be really pleased with himself. Ben W Bell 14:14, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jorja Fox 

message: While I hate to do it, I have added John Paulk to the list of gay and bi-sexual people, and established an article about him on Wikipedia.  Having known John when he was at his prime "gayness", and seeing that he rose and failed Exodus International, I think its important for his name to be on the list.  Personally, I fear the day that he reclaims his gay persona. Also, can some kind folks take a look at the article and ensure that its NPOV? user: stude62 user talk:stude62 01:08, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Paulk 

message: I suggest that Jeffrey Dahmer be moved back to the No longer identifying as gay, lesbian, or bisexual section due to his conversion to Christianity in prison before his death. 
:I suggest that your implication that there are no Christian self-identified gays, lesbians, or bisexuals is ridiculous. - Outerlimits 09:18, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jeffrey Dahmer 

message: I have removed Michael Portillo from the "proven gay" list as he does not identify himself as gay; he considers himself straight and has a wife. Although he admitted to having gay relationships in college, these seem to have fallen under his "experimental phase" and he does not seem to align with the encounters he had in the early 1970s. If anything, he's done a 180. Mike H 03:44, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
:Michael does not call himself as "straight" despite repeated media questioning. The idea of having an 'experimental phase' in college - pleeeese, what planet are you on? A once off drunken experiment, maybe. Twice is a bit questionable. But you don't have longterm relationships with men as an 'experiment', much less introduce your girlfriend (now wife) to someone you call your "ex-boyfriend", much less tell them (oh the tactlessness of it) that one had been seeing both of them at the same time for a period, much less tell them that when they are sitting beside each other in one's speeding car rushing through the countryside. 
:As to Michael's sexual behaviour since his marriage, few of his friends (not even his wife) believe he hasn't "experimented" since. I'm putting him back in. FearÉIREANN 22:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  or theres discussion of information about portillo's sexualitySandpiper 4 July 2005 16:47 (UTC)
BTW as a matter of interest the reason why Michael, though at that stage a hated Tory, was not outed when his sexual orientation was common knowledge in Fleet Street and Westminster was because a senior Labour figure was also gay and in the closet. A senior Labour figure at the time told me that Labour and the Tories operated a "gentleman's agreement" whereby 'you don't out our guy, we won't out yours'. Michael, to give him his credit, opted when restarting his career to confirm his sexuality. The other guy hasn't - as he is still in the closet, he is not here even though as I know his ex-longterm boyfriend I am 100% sure of his orientation. There are actually a very large number of gay MPs and peers, including household names. But few have been as honest as Michael in coming out, even if it was carefully worded so as not to offend the blue rinse brigade of old dears in the Tories. So he deliberately refuses to categorise himself - he daren't say 'straight' becuase leading tabloids know all about his more recent shagging, while saying 'gay' or 'bisexual' would cause half the Tories (most of whom are elderly) to die of fright. But even talking about long past gay experiences was enough to kill off his leadership hopes, ironically given that he is probably the only senior Tory capable of leading the party to win an election. (To win they need to beat Labour by 10%+, thanks to Britain's ludicrously undemocratic first past the post electoral system. At the stage they are right now, there should be a Tory government around 2013. If Portillo was leader they'd have one in June this year. FearÉIREANN 22:42, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Michael Portillo

message: Shouldn't gay or lesbian be the default, and only specific notation be made for "bisexual"?  In case where the sex of the individual is unclear to the unfamiliar (for example Marilyn Manson) an (M) or (F) could go after the name.
:Please Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks. Hyacinth 21:04, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Default Description

message: Should priests who have been accused of molesting young men or boys, but who have not admitted to these acts or been convicted of the acts be included in this list? The latest such addition is Juliusz Paetz, (former) Archbishop of Poznan. There are plenty of sources describing the allegations. Polish archbishop quits in sex row, Polish Priests Press Vatican on Case Against Bishop. Do we include all of the famous priest/molesters, even if they'd denied charges? -Willmcw 05:35, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
: Child molestation is pedophelia - an entirely separate category. Gender of victims in child molestation is frequently a matter of availability. If an adult is attracted to same sex children he/she is a pedophile, not gay.
::Gay = homosexual = attracted to people of the same sex -- age is without regard. And child molestion is not pedophilia. 24.224.153.40 01:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic churchmen/Alleged child molesters 

message: Scanning over this Talk page I am amazed at how many people have been listed here and removed. The editors maintaining this are clearly irresponsible. This page may very well lead to a serious lawsuit against the project and I think it's better for it to just disappear, as it is churlish and useless anyway. JDG 05:51, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't waste your time. It's quite useful, actually - I for one find it interesting. In any case, there's no chance of getting a consensus to delete, and we've all got better things to do than argue about it. Ambi 05:55, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice of intent to list at VfD 

message: Straw poll is at the top of this page.
:--Samuel Wantman 00:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please vote 

message: Langston Hughes is on both the confirmed and the possible gay, lesbian or bisexual lists. I removed him from the confirmed, but if anybody has evidence of his supposed homosexuality than he should be added to the confirmed list and deleted from the possible list.
---Langston Hughes is indeed agreed upon by virtually every biographer to be gay. I have re-added him to the Confirmed section. There is little dispute in the literary world or amongst historical biographers concerning Hughes' sexual persuasion. His Wiki bio even attests to this. --- ExRat 01:11, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Langston Hughes 

message: I removed Roger Moss from the list as he was added on July 12 by User:129.74.75.254, an open proxy vandal who also added a spurious addition to the Roger Moss article itself which was quickly reverted.  Kaibabsquirrel 15:25, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roger Moss 

message: I've removed Julius Caesar.
During Sulla's proscriptions, Caesar being the son-in-law of Lucius Cornelius Cinna, one of Sulla's greatest enemies, fled Rome, ending up eventually at the court of the Bithynian king Nicomedes III. Because of Caesars prolonged stay at court, rumors arose that Caesar and Nicomedes were lovers. These rumors were spread (and perhaps created) by Caesars enemies like Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus, and repeated by the ancient historian Suetonius. Caesar apparently denied these charges, and although perhaps true, they remain at best rumors.
There was also the accusation of Mark Antony against his enemy Caesar Augustus, that he had earned his adoption by Caesar through sexual favors. But again Antony is not an unbiased source, and even Suetonius calls this charge political slander.
Paul August ☎ 18:13, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Can you please give references? This if from the article:
* Cicero says that "the virginity of this son of Venus was lost in Bithynia" with King Nicomedes. Licinius Calvus was quoted as "whate’er Bithynia had, and Caesar’s paramour (predicator, active partner in anal sex)". Dollabella said that Caesar is "the queen’s rival, the inner partner of the royal couch" and Curio called him "the brothel of Nicomedes and the stew of Bithynia". Bibulus named Caesar the "queen of Bithynia" saying that "of yore he was enamoured of a king, but now of a king’s estate". Gaius Memmius made analogy to Ganymede by stating that Caesar was the "cupbearer to Nicomedes with the rest of his wantons". It was said that soldiers sang mockingly that "Caesar conquered the Gauls, but Nicomedes conquered Caesar".
In ancient Rome male homosexuality was common and widespread throughout society, but it was thought to be improper for a freeborn boy or man to be penetrated anally as Caesar was in his youth. For a man or boy to participate in the passive role during anal sex it generally indicated that they were a slave or one that had earned his freedom. Under Roman law emancipated slaves may still be required to render certain services, including sexual ones, to their former master. [1]
* Mark Antony charged that Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus had earned his adoption by Caesar through sexual favors. Suetonius while saying that Caesar's affair with Nicomedes is true described Antony's accusation of an affair with Octavian as political slander. The boy would become the first Roman Emperor following Caesar's death. [2]
And it is backed with references. To the best of my knowledge Caesar never denied his relation with Nicomedes. Can you provide a source? 70.57.82.114 20:19, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:   [[Julius Caesar]]? 

message: pete 03:12, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Be or Not? 

message: Removed Achilles. Fictional/mythological characters don't belong on this list. - ExRat 00:10, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Achilles 

message: I removed her entry because her article specifically says the claims of lesbianism were untrue. GinaDana 23:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Marie Antoinette]] 

message: It seems that this list is quite unwieldy (there have been suggestions of breaking it down somehow); at the same time it seems to be doing the same job as :Category:Gay%2C_lesbian_or_bisexual_people. Would it not make sense to merge the two?
A lot of work, I know, but worthwhile I think.
:For what purpose? It's convention not to delete lists because of a somewhat equivalent category, and I don't think this list is overly unwieldy. Ambi 13:57, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging this list to an existing category 

message: Removed Vin Diesel from the "Confirmed" list. No confirmation, simply conjecture and rumor. - ExRat 00:18, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vin Diesel 

message: Removed Eleanor Roosevelt from the "Confirmed" section. While there has been some speculation of her "relationships" with other women, this has never been confirmed. Most of the rumors about her allegedly "lesbianism" or "bisexuality" are simply that; rumors,   and have never been proven. She does not belong on the "Confirmed" section in my opinion. - ExRat 00:23, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eleanor Roosevelt 

message: Since I have noticed several posts describing the article as "unwieldy" and "large", I was wondering what everyone thought of eliminationg the "red" individuals from the list who have no Wikipedia bio or page. I think it may be helpful in curtailing some of the bulkiness of the page. If they have no bio page then perhaps they could be included when they do have when instead of taking up spaces that don't lead anywhere. Also, if they have no page/bio then it is harder to confirm if they should actually be included here. What does everyone think? Good idea? Bad idea? - ExRat 00:33, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for deleting individuals with no Wiki bio/page. 

message: Joan Armatrading, singer-songwriter. There is no indiaction of her sexuality in her article, nor on her "official" website, which is the sole external link from the articel at present. On Wikipedioa:Help Desk, an anon poster said: 
"Singer-songwriter Joan Armatrading's name appears in Wikipedia's list of, Confirmed Homosexuals and Bisexuals. 
I know there are many people who are convinced she is a lesbian or at least lesbian/bi but Joan herself has never confirmed or denied this.
She has always been very protective of her private life.
...
However I have to ask where is Wikipedia's confirmation?"
I must echo the question -- no confirming or even supporting evidencee seems to be on wikipedia at present. DES (talk) 15:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Joan Armatrading]] 

message: Shouldn't he be moved to the confirmed list? I thought he came out in The Advocate. Or somewhere. I just know I've never heard anybody say he's straight. 69.66.124.179 18:44, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peter Paige 

message: He is on both lists: "confirmed" and "debated". Some consistency needed
:Thanks for pointing that out. Since there is no confirmation of the rumors, I removed his name fomr the "undisputed" section. Cheers, -Willmcw 21:00, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tarkan 

message: I strongly oppose having a separate list for those of debated sexuality. Having the lists together makes it much easier to maintain. Otherwise there would be duplication. There are many lists longer than this, and it is easily edited by section, so I see no reason to rush to split it up. -Willmcw 03:13, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separate list for "debated" people 

message: Ok so we have a transvestite listed and a guy who had sex with a transvestite listed so why not gein?
grazon 22:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Transvestites who are not homosexual should be listed in list of transgendered people. Guys who knowingly have sex with transvestites are usually considered gay or bisexual. In the case of Gein, he isn't even a conventional transvestite. Dressing oneself in women's tanned skins is way beyond the definition of transvestism. -Willmcw 22:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is, indirectly. You'll see that he is categorized under "Gay, lesbian or bisexual people". -Willmcw 22:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

text: No, there it isn't circular because, so far as I know, it wasn't added due to Divine's presence on this list. However, I don't know why or on what evidence someone added that category to that biography. You might ask on that talk page. -Willmcw 23:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm confused 

message: I have removed republican party strategist and Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove from the Disputed page. I have never read anything with any compelling evidence to suggest that he his gay or bisexual. The site that was given as some sort of proof that Rove is gay {http://www.bushstole04.com/gannon_article_10.htm} is an absolutely slanted POV site. The fact that the page is entitled "Bush Stole '04" should have been a clue. While I might not personally like the man at all, I think this addition was merely a political attack. Discretion, discretion, discretion! Please! This page, I'm afaraid is getting to be like a witch-hunt, with people being included on the flimsiest of evidence.ExRat 03:23, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case, as in the case of Shane MacGowan below and almost every other case, the only explanation that we really need to hear is "the bio doesn't mention his orientation." It is up to the biography editors to decide how to handle the matter, not the editors of this list. (Though I think that we'd be sympathetic to making an exception if someone said that bio editors refused to allow an orientation mention for POV reasons despite ample sourcing. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case here.) Cheers, -Willmcw 07:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karl Rove 

message: I have removed former Pogues lead singer Shane MacGowan from the Disputed list. I have been a die-hard fan of the Pogues and MacGowan for many years and have never at any point heard anything to suggest that MacGowan was anything but heterosexual. I am willing to concede that he may be, but hell, anyone may be. But, where's the evidence?ExRat 03:27, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shane MacGowan 

message: I removed:
*Glen Potter, South African born singer, currently residing in Australia.
because I was unable to locate evidence of this. If someone does, please put it back. Deco 03:52, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glen Potter 

message: Gary Ray Bowles
Colin Ireland 
John Joubert
Patrick Mackay
Nico Claux
Dennis Nilsen 
Alton Coleman 
Andrei Chikatilo?
Herb Baumeister
Marie Hilley
Dean Corll
serial killer
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.241.245.132 (talk • contribs) 06:18, October 17, 2005.
:Please sign your talk page comments, you know how. Please also respect the community consensus which has decided that "...inclusion in this list must be supported by the evidence discussed in the person's biography article." The majority of your entries thus far have not meet that criteria, so I've removed them. Unfortunately, serial killers have become so common that they are not automatically notable. Thanks, -Willmcw 06:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  sorry to add the people but they are/were gay 

message: Shouldn't Ricky Martin be removed, there is no evidence that he is gay; sure there has been questions made about him being gay, but he has not confirmed or denied this.
: I removed the name and left a note at talk:Ricky Martin explaining the reasoning - that there has to be a mention in that article. -Willmcw 21:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ricky Martin 

message: the "debated" part of this list is extremely annoying, and essentially just slander.  please restrict the list to verifiable, substantiated cases. Frederick II of Prussia, for example:
:Some sources (Voltaire) indicate that Frederick was homosexual, it remains unclear whether he ever acted upon these supposed tendencies.
so a sarcastic comment from Voltaire is enough to make Frederick a homosexual for all posterity? Please. It cannot be enough that 'somebody made some oblique remark', otherwise virtually anybody could end up on his list ("his school buddies are recorded to have called him 'gay'" -- "list him, he's a homo!" - what gives??) Baad 13:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't think that Voltaire is a credible source for Frederick then go to that article and say so there. (Though he might not be the only source). This list just follows what is written in the biographies, so it is up to those editors to decide whether an assertion about orientation is notable, verifiable, or should be deleted. And no, calling someone gay is not slander. -Willmcw 19:41, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: well, it depends on whom you call gay. If you were to call me gay, I would consider it slander. The entire point is that Humboldt and Frederick are not around anymore to deny the charges. So, if you must keep the 'debated' part, it may be useful to give some sort of indication of the evidence. "being called gay by Voltaire" (you know Voltaire, I assume?) or "has never shown emotional interest in women" (Humboldt) is hardly the same sort of evidence as "liked to parade about in women's colthes attended by youths" (Henry III) -- I have no objection to listing the latter here at all. But to call a scholar gay because he never married is really approaching the slanderous. Baad 22:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The evidence belongs in the biography of the subject, this is just a list. -Willmcw 23:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: debated

message: Statement by proposer This is silly to have dual maintenance - a massive list of Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual, and another massive list of Bisexual. It would be much better from a non-duplication-of-info-in-two-places sense to split out the bisexual people and ensure they are in the sub-lists at List of bisexuals. We have already split out transgender, and pansexual people into separate lists, so I think it's overall much less dual maintenance and many fewer opportunities for incorrect contents to simply split out the bisexuals from here as well. Bisexuals have their own  category, so they don't need to be glommed together with gay people in this list. Obviously, after we split we would need to do a rename.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm neutral on this proposal, but as a point of order, I'd observe that 'transgender' is a category orthogonal to 'lesbian, gay, or bisexual', while 'pansexual' certainly isn't. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess so... but bisexual could be considered orthogonal, at least as an identity to gay or lesbian.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:38, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In some respects. I've debated this one back and forth at bi activist events, and still don't have a good answer. Let's say that pansexual and bisexual aren't orthogonal, at any rate. Transgender is definitely a different kettle of fish, though. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's fair to say that bisexual is not a special kind of gay, no? Anyway, it's getting a bit offtopic. They are listed here as bisexual. I'm proposing we just reduce duplication and only list them in one place.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:03, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be the first to say that bisexual is not just a special kind of gay! My point was that being transgender isn't a sexual orientation at all. For what it's worth, I'll support any practicable solution which avoids duplication and gives us a single, well-sourced, list of bisexual people. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:09, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split out bisexuals 

message: *support, as nom.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:08, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm neutral on this proposal, but as a point of order, I'd observe that 'transgender' is a category orthogonal to 'lesbian, gay, or bisexual', while 'pansexual' certainly isn't. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess so... but bisexual could be considered orthogonal, at least as an identity to gay or lesbian.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:38, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: In some respects. I've debated this one back and forth at bi activist events, and still don't have a good answer. Let's say that pansexual and bisexual aren't orthogonal, at any rate. Transgender is definitely a different kettle of fish, though. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's fair to say that bisexual is not a special kind of gay, no? Anyway, it's getting a bit offtopic. They are listed here as bisexual. I'm proposing we just reduce duplication and only list them in one place.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:03, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be the first to say that bisexual is not just a special kind of gay! My point was that being transgender isn't a sexual orientation at all. For what it's worth, I'll support any practicable solution which avoids duplication and gives us a single, well-sourced, list of bisexual people. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:09, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion 

message: I'd like to add Louise Madonna Ciccone, AKA Madonna, to the list of bisexual people    <http://www.nndb.com/people/480/000023411//ref><ref>
Indigofem1 (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2015 

message: I'd like to add Eve Salvail to the lesbians
Indigofem1 (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Cannolis (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2015 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:09, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: We need an article on straight people because right now they are either discriminated against or the article is heteronormative. --2001:16B8:2E30:3A00:DCEF:1E72:50DC:731 (talk) 21:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Existence of this very article 

message: Nicholas Magill - British gay rights activist and AA mechanic Sandynicks (talk) 17:33, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, I'm not finding an article for anyone by that name. Please write the article first if need be. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:45, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2018 

message: The following lists of gay, lesbian or bisexual people have received Featured list status for Culture and society:
· A
· R
· Sa–Sc
· Sd–Si
· Sj–Sz
· T–V
· W–Z
(7 lists).
 Pyxis Solitary  yak 12:56, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia "Featured list"

message: In Sengoku Japan, there wasn't any taboo about lying with other men. That practice was called a Shudou and Oda Nobunaga and Takeda Shingen were known for having had relationships with boys named Mori Ranmaru and Kosaka Masanobu, the former of which is a popular subject of yaoi mangas thanks to his "reputation". 
Oda Nobunaga and Takeda Shingen could be considered bi as both had wives but at the same time had Shudou relationships.
This book says that Ranmaru was Nobunaga's "handsome young lover", hence the Daimyo that unified Japan was a bi.
As for Shingen, Kosaka Masanobu's own Wikipedia page claims he had a "love relationship" (not sexual, but still romantic) with Shingen.
https://books.google.it/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA283&lpg=PA283&dq=nobunaga+ranmaru+sex&source=bl&ots=MMNvrcwUDn&sig=ACfU3U1H8wsFs_gG1hCAn24yxyQ9XeEuwA&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwin1vifnLrnAhXOGuwKHT69CgkQ6AEwA3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=nobunaga%20ranmaru%20sex&f=false
This source also states Nobunaga and Shingen have had sex with boys
https://books.google.it/books?id=a6q-PqPDAmIC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=were+shingen+and+kosaka+lovers?&source=bl&ots=Kz7ixftmCa&sig=ACfU3U1ugkvQGr_KQnwXHamt4tmvJ7iEZg&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjyqrrznrrnAhWE26QKHXbvDZUQ6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=were%20shingen%20and%20kosaka%20lovers%3F&f=false 79.12.49.221 (talk) 10:54, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. Western identification of persons as "gay" or "bi" do not apply to historical Japan.  See the list inclusion criteria for more.  Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oda Nobunaga, Takeda Shingen (both bi)