Talk:Intercession of saints

message: 53:26 is taken out of context and mistranslated, Arabic is my first language, the last part of the verse means exept for whom he wants and accepts (could be both the intercessor and the person being Interceeded for too)  , I'll find a supporting translation somewhere ;) --The Brain 21:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 53:26

message: This focus of this article is a specifically Christian practice. It should not be a forum for non-Christians (or even Christians!) to hash out their theological differences or to try to convert one another, but to describe the practice, its history, its context, and so forth. If Muslims do believe in intercession of saints, then information of this length may be warranted if it were original material, but still No sermons! That said, these are mostly quotation piled on top of quotation. This is not the wikipedia way.
As interesting as the Muslim information is, it ought to be moved (if it is not there already) to the more general Intercession article, or perhaps wikisource, with a link ("see also") from here and (a very few) select quotes to illustrate the different positions within Muslim practice.
→ (AllanBz ✎) 09:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overabundance of Muslim quotations 

message: I have requested a citation for this claim and have reverted citations which merely linked to two other Wikipedia pages.  Wikipedia is not considered a verifiable source.  My concern is that this doctrine is NOT common to the vast majority of the world's Christians.  It is a doctrine common to Roman Catholicism.  The user who added these citations to the article (User:72.145.42.109) also amended:
* "from the Catholic and Orthodox Churches perspective, as well as "High Church" Anglican/Episcopalianism and certain Old Lutheran perspective" 
so that it read 
* "From the Catholic and Orthodox Churches perspective, as well as Anglican/Episcopalian and old line Lutheran perspective".
This is not true.  The 39 Articles, the bedrock rule-book of Anglicanism, specifically refutes the doctrine of the intercession of the saints.  
If a source for the top line claim isn't found within a fortnight then I intend to re-write it to make clear that this is a Roman Catholic doctrine (which is what it is) rather than a doctrine common to Christianity as a whole.  87.127.44.154 05:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So should it say those Anglicans who reject the 39 Articles? Nitpyck (talk) 06:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: doctrine common to the vast majority of the world's Christians

message: Which Reformed/Calvinist denominations accept this doctrine??? Nitpyck (talk) 06:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reformed 

message: Dumping it here, in case it is ever needed, before I forget: wstawiennictwo.—6birc (talk) 03:11, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish term 

message: Substituted at 18:59, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Roman Catholic Church doctrine supports intercessory prayer to saints. Intercessory prayer to saints also plays an important role in the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches.
The article on intercessory prayer says that "intercessory prayer is the act of praying to God on behalf of others". By this definition, prayer to saints is not intercessory prayer. Rather, one requests that the saints engage in intercessory prayer on your behalf. So these two articles contradict each other. Which is correct? --superioridad (discusión) 05:57, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Intercessory prayer to saints" 

message: Whew. What a bunch of unsourced and uncited stuff.
* "The 4th-century Apostles' Creed states belief in the communion of saints, which certain Christian churches interpret as supporting the intercession of saints."
:Unsourced. And no reference to that later in the article (which might otherwise excuse the lack of sources in the introduction).
The "Biblical Basis" paragraph is an absolute catastrophe in this respect.
*"Advocates of the doctrine say that Jesus' parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19–31 indicates the ability of the dead to pray for the living."
: - Who are these advocates? And where is the source for their use of this parable?
*"... it is argued..."
: - By whom? And where can we read up on that?
*"Both those for and against the intercession of saints quote Job 5:1."
: - Do they, really? Well, why not quote them then?
The way some sources are used in the following paragraphs (the Apology of the Augsburg Confession and Baruch Apoc. Ethiopic for instance) is what they generally call Original Research here.
The St. Augustin quote under the picture also is OR in that sense. I would ask other users to check the Google Books source given for that quote. What I get is "No results found in this book for "So then as we celebrate with our festive gatherings the birthday of this great man"". So I can't help having my doubts about the source of that quote too.
* Protestantism: "some modern Protestant churches strongly reject all saintly intercession"
: - To the best of my knowledge, practically ALL modern Protestant churches (except for a few cryptocatholic ones maybe) strongly reject that, so I would definitely like to see good sources for this "some".
* "Traditional Lutheran belief accounts that saints pray for the Church in general"
: - This bold claim is "supported" by a reference to the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. As stated before, in the first place, this is Original Research. In the second place, I cannot find any such statement in that article of the Apology. On the contrary, it says exactly what is quoted of Martin Luther in the next sentence: to honor the saints but not pray to them. It does say that the living saints pray for the church but quite obviously that is not what is this article is talking about.
:This is so grossly wrong and twisting the Apology into its exact opposite that I am going to take that sentence out altogether. And I would ask for some really good reasons (and sources!) for putting it back in.
* "There is some evidence of a Jewish belief in intercession"
: - well, where is that evidence? Almost everything else in that paragraph uncited too.
* Islam: lots of claims, not a single source.
--93.212.228.146 (talk) 19:17, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I did a bit of work on that now, as well as adding the Calvinist/Reformed view. However, I don't have much literature available at present, so I could really only refer to the old confessional writings. It would be great if someone could add some good modern sources so this is not too much OR here. --93.212.228.146 (talk) 21:49, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations?? 

message: Can anyone explain why the Methodist church is included in the same paragraph with the Anglican? You might as well include the Lutheran church in the paragraph about the Roman Catholic church. --93.212.228.146 (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Methodists 

message: I just changed the claim "Judaism also allows for the petition of saints" in the introduction to "As in Christianity, this practice is controversial in Judaism and Islam" which is more in keeping with the rest of the article.
Even that though - and the content at the bottom of the article - I suspect to be POV. There may be some tendencies in popular belief to invoke saints even in these strongly monotheistic religions, but I doubt that - especially in Judaism - they take up as large a part as the article suggests, with its small and uncited side note "Those who oppose this practice feel that to God alone may prayers be offered." I would actually assume that the vast majority of Jews belong to "those who oppose this practice", and I doubt that the source of one Chabad Lubawitsch FAQ can prove otherwise. --84.190.92.240 (talk) 06:25, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judaism 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This parable is cited as, according to some, supporting the possibility of intercession for the living. But this seems nonsense to me: it features the rich man asking Abraham to have Lazarus intercede for him. All involved in the intercession are dead. If some cite it for this purpose, who? It needs a secondary source. Hairy Dude (talk) 20:16, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a source. It's not airtight, because Dives is in Hell, but Abraham does hear him anyway and answers him. YMMV. Elizium23 (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The [[rich man and Lazarus]] 

message: I added the Assyrian Church of the East to the list of churches holding this doctrine, according to this article. The Assyrian Church of the East also has prayers asking for intercession from saints in this prayer book. 73.73.127.102 (talk) 00:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added Assyrian Church of the East to opening sentence