Talk:Sigismund I the Old

message: I don't know if it's just me but the images on this article seem far too cluttered and it makes a really high standard and concise article look a mess. As for the naming if Zygmunt I the old is the preffered name to be used why isn't it declared in the first sentence there is an alternative? Most other articles do this. E.g. Zygmunt the Old  (alt. Sigismund the Old) was the a Polish ruler... etc. etc. Kyle sb 14:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clutter 

message: This article appears to be another example of a recent agenda by Polish nationals to force Polish spelling on various articles.  The correct name for this article should be Sigismund I, as it is listed in English-language encyclopedias.  If the Poles want to spell it as something else in the Polish-language Wikipedia, that's fine, but in the English Wikipedia, the name should conform to that of English reference works. --Elonka 02:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, many English reference works seem to prefer the fully Polish name of "Zygmunt I Stary". However as a Polish nationalist working in mysterious ways I would like to strongly oppose remaning this article with 'Stary', as I believe 'the Old' makes it much more useful for English readers. As for Sigismund I I strongly oppose it, as it should be a disambig between our Zygmunt and Sigismund, Archduke of Austria, Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor, Sigismund Korybut and Sigismund_of_Bavaria. I see no reason why Sigismund would be preferable to Sigismundus, Sigmund or Zygmunt, the latter one being the correct Polish name for the Polish king, ensuring that he is not confused with other Sgizi-whaterver of neighbourung countries. New editors may want to review this issue, as it already has been discussed at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Polish rulers).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The same search  produces tens of times the number when "Sigismund I" and Poland are combined. The disambiguation problem, by WP recipe, is solved by using, precisely as naming convention (that for all european rulers, not the one proposed specifically for some reason for those Polish rulers) directs, Sigismund I of Poland. ObRoy 03:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ObRoy, I would agree with you if not not for the following reasons 1) what about Lithuania? One needs to look only at Talk:Władysław II Jagiełło to see users arguing that the 'Lithuania' is at least as important as 'Poland' for the kings of PLU/PLC, It was this argument that convinced many 'nationalist Poles' that current naming conventions are not aplicable, as 'of country' becomes not very useful when you have two (or more!) countries. And to further complicate matters, 'of Poland-Lithuania is not as clear as 'of Austro-Hungary' (just follow the links). 2) 'the Old' is short, more memorable and 'interesting'.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  Piotrus, I would also direct editors to Talk:List of Polish monarchs, where it was made clear that there was not consensus to move these articles to Polish titles, and yet clearly the moves went ahead anyway. --Elonka 03:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Elonka, perhaps we should start with Talk:List of Polish monarchs/Archive 01 where a majority of users supported the moves. As for consensus, note on WP:RM that they define it as >60% (rather stange definition of consensus if you ask me, but it is what we use...).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I lokked at those discussions, and observed that there was no consensus (not in any stage) to formulate a new policy or an exception to policy. 60% does not suffice for rewriting a policy or making a general exception. A consensus is required for such. When doing those series of moves, you had the general guideline yet in force (because no consensus allowed an exception to it nor had accepted a new guideline) and you moved those articles in contravention to that general guideline. Sad, and admonishable. 60% suffices (usually) for RM of one article (mostly because one article is not regarded an inevitable slution, but can be later moved quite easily again, sometimes aa just an editorial decision and always by a new survey for RM), but your 60% was not a response to an individual move request (which belong to talk page of the article to be moved), it was -if even reached as you claim- in page where a policy or guideline is talked about. Because you had no consensus behind a new guideline or an exception to guidelines, you cannot use that proposal as any argument. One of the ideas of 60% re RM is that it can be used only as example of an once-approved move, a situational solution, and not any policy or guideline. I realize that you have effected a series of moves and condoned, even abetted, actions of one party in a move war without there having been a consensus for any such general principle. It seems that you have insufficient grasp of WP guidelines of conduct and should study all such much more before doing these harmful series of moves. ObRoy 09:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you would look at the time of the moves, you would see that at the time they were done most of the current opponents were not interested in the matter, thus they majority for the move was much higher.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow: "a justification comes also from King being generally a higher title than Grand Duke, so the possibly small unit that is titularly kingdom would be over the possibly huge unit hat was titularly just a grand duchy)." Remember Jogaila, when crumbling polish kingdom was saved by some "titularly just a grand duke" AND lithuanian born Sofia. And another one thing  - Jogaila literary "bought" this title by paying ransom accordin to Kreves act: not bad for a pagan, huh? --Lokyz 22:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

text: John, please note that by the time the moves were done (December) there was 2:0 support of my proposal (see Talk:List_of_Polish_monarchs/Archive_01#Proposal), which has been there for about a month before Logologist started moving the articles. As was pointed out later, we might have been at fault by not advertising the move wider, but certainly it was not carried with any significant opposition at the time. The entire debate started after attention was attracted with the move.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there was unanimous support (based on, three people), for a while.  You continued moving even after I made my objections clear, though. (I noted my objection while you guys were in the middle of moving the articles). john k 12:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Such support is surely enough to begin moves. Looking at the page I see that in many cases you simply said that old name is ok, but did not object to the move per se, and in all cases you brought the arguments we replied to them. Last but not least I believe it was not me who was moving the articles but logologist, although it is possible I moved a few too, especially in cases a red existed at the target place.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I believer "elder" and "younger" are used to disambiguate between two people.  But Sigismund actually was *old*.  He ascended the throne at the age of 39 and ruled for 42 years. Appleseed (Talk) 18:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It seems that we change a lot of things from "books" in Wikipedia. So, can't we be BOLD, and make things "better" or  more Poetic? Dr. Dan 22:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  good point about books and wik. I just wondering could anybody give a hint on any EN book with Elder? from curiosity...M.K. 22:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should not so change, except when quite necessary. Septentrionalis 17:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: What do you think this article should be named?  Please cast your vote below. 21:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believer "elder" and "younger" are used to disambiguate between two people.  But Sigismund actually was *old*.  He ascended the throne at the age of 39 and ruled for 42 years. Appleseed (Talk) 18:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It seems that we change a lot of things from "books" in Wikipedia. So, can't we be BOLD, and make things "better" or  more Poetic? Dr. Dan 22:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  good point about books and wik. I just wondering could anybody give a hint on any EN book with Elder? from curiosity...M.K. 22:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We should not so change, except when quite necessary. Septentrionalis 17:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poll 

message: I think the majority goes to Sigismund I the Old. Page moved. Eugène van der Pijll 21:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Result

message: The Wikipedia policy on naming says that articles should receive "the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works." For everyone's use, here is a list of how this individual's name is listed in major English-language works. If you have access to an English-language encyclopedia or dictionary that is not listed here, please feel free to add another datapoint to this list.  Thanks! --Elonka 21:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, this demonstrates that Sigismund the Old is not the overwhelming consensus that policy requires. (Encyclopedia is fake Greek, btw; it takes a normal English plural in -s). Septentrionalis 17:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name as it appears in encyclopediae and dictionaries 

message: Hello,
I am no Polish history expert, far from it. I found out about this page when editing banknote data. To my surprise, this page had a ton of double redirects, even triple in some cases! This page was moved 3 days ago, and nobody even bother to check that? Yes, I know everyone can edit, therefore strictly speaking nobody is more responsible than others. And robots will "eventually" catch this. But please, I humbly ask you, if you care about Sigismund I the Old, then make things better, for yourselves and other interested readers. --Chochopk 07:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  People, take responsibilities! 

message: How did he die? Colonel Marksman 21:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How?

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:200zl r.jpg

message: :Image:200zl r.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:200zl r.jpg

message: I thought I had made my case, and even compelling. So perhaps I need to do it here so the individual who keeps changing how I, and why I, laid out the infobox as it was, with the King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania in separate successions. As I suggested that this individual perhaps do a little research into Polish history and the monarchs in general, and it seems this what not done, I will quickly summarize here. Until 1569, there was no official Joint commonwealth. As such, these were two completely separate realms, with each title being put into place by each countries own parliament. After 1569, there was a joint parliament that required the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to place one ruler, but still holding two separate titles. If you combine these two successions in one area in the infobox, those who are looking at the infoboxes for a quick summary, will not understand this. The Polish succession to it's own monarchs, let alone the additional aspect of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, is not as easy as comparing it to the British Royal successions, as this individual has done here, and on other articles. As this person keeps doing. I am trying to respect the fact that this individual was, as it appears, very involved in the evolution of the template:infobox royalty template. MJSplant (talk) 22:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: How could you think that you made your case (and even compelling) when I addressed your concerns on your talkpage? I too made my case, you know. You could be civil enough to refer to me by my username, rather than "this/that individual", let alone giving your opinion of my knowledge about Polish monarchs (based on editing an infobox?!). Anyway, I have never inserted any mention of the P-L Commonwealth into the infobox. I have merely put the Lithuanian title below the Polish title. It just doesn't make sense to have two seperate successions when every parameter is the same. Of course this is as easy as comparing it to the British succession; Elizabeth II reigns over sixteen states and this man reigned over two states. I don't see sixteen successions in the infobox of her article, even though all those states are in exactly the same relationship as were Poland and Lithuania during Sigismund I's reign - in a personal union. Sigismund succeeded the same man as King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania; he was inaugurated as the King of Poland and the Grand Duke of Lithuania on the same day; his reign in Poland and Lithuania began on the same day; his reign in Poland and Lithuania ended on the same day; he was succeeded as King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania by the same man. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to repeat things. Once again, I would like to ask you to refer to me, rather than talking about me using third-person pronoun. Surtsicna (talk) 10:47, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Alexander Jagiellon which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 20:30, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: Re He set up the legal codes that formalized serfdom, locking the peasants into the estates of nobles.  - which page is that in the Lewalski source?  Volunteer Marek  01:53, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  serfdom 

message: I suppose its Sigismund I Stary whom has this renown statue in Warszawa, the king standing on a high colonn?  I think its worth mentioning it somewhere in the article, I suspect for many non specialists he is known mainly by this statue.  Or if you want, mentioning this statue gives immediately an Aha-feeling with many tourists.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.64.147.208 (talk) 08:06, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  the statue in Warszawa 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Augustus II the Strong which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 14:01, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress