Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Archive 1

message: :Image:Crossbow_diagram.png: I don't really care about the outdated name of this, but the image itself needs to be altered to remove the word "CROSSBOW" (in "Area targetted by CROSSBOW": should just be "Area targetted"). Can someone take this on? I'd really like to see this already dealt with before we publicly announce this as a WikiProject. -- Jmabel 23:21, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
:I hope this isn't a controversial idea, but can we just abandon the image -- I just don't like the whole idea of a "weapon" "targetting" certain deficient areas as a metaphor for improving Wikipedia. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 00:15, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree though could there be another image somewhere to break the text up?  That's perhaps a more controversial idea than getting rid of this one... -- Graham  ☺ | Talk 00:20, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm not totally sure I understand the Venn diagram right, but to me it seems to imply that an "Ent" article does not belong in an "imaginary ideal" Wikipedia. Although I do understand the arguments that could be made for this position, I think there is a serious risk that such a position becomes the target of a lot of criticism that would divert attention from the main purpose of this project. Which, in my interpretation, is to expand the Wikipedia, not to single out existing articles that we want to take away. Alarm 23:14, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Though there hasn't been much criticism from people within the project, it may put off people joining. I don't know. I thought it got the point across, in an easy to understand way. I'm not suggesting Ent should be removed - Wikipedia will always have that "bulge". --Xed 03:36, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Venn 

message: I have tried to incorporate the garish table above into the existing template design. It needs a lot of work design-wise. Anyone with the knowledge can try and make it look better. One thing that needs doing is making the "Country carousel" block a different color from the "Voted items" block. Leave comments and suggestions below.---Xed 02:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: well, tell me what you think would work - a 4 x 4 grid, with 2 cols country carousel, and 2 cols of voted?--Xed 02:37, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template update 

message: Does anyone find it incongruous that our countering systemic bias page includes the line "Female oriented/dominated subjects ... Nursing, Fashion" - SimonP 19:38, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
:Yeah, that jarred a bit when I read it. :) But so too did the word "feminism". I wonder if feminist issues might not be one of the best covered of all women-related topics on wikipedia, given that feminism has a reasonably high profile among the majority of wikipedians. I've not checked out my suspicious but I bet that we have massive holes in many areas relating to the history of women and of biographies of women who had nothing to do with feminism, or did not support it. 
:[The word] "feminism" also tends to make people think of western women, and their women's right's movements. We should not forget to seek out notable women, and information on the lives of the whole spectrum of rich/powerful to poor women, who live in the developing world. fabiform | talk 20:26, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The prime concern is Countering Systemic Bias, which is why female-oriented subjects need addressing, since there are more men than women on Wikipedia. This doesn't automatically mean articles related to Feminism - though of course there are some missing pieces there too. The parochial nature of the women on list on the page (almost all are western) reminds me that western feminists have long been criticised (internally and externally) for seeing non-western woman as a homogenous mass who are simply passive objects and weak victims. The western feminist seems only interested in these women when they fit into this stereotype. Ironically, western feminism is very paternalistic towards non-western women. Elements of patronising racism are probably inherited from the wider western society.---Xed 22:11, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Incongruity

message: I feel it is important the todo list is the first thing someone sees when browsing the project page; so that potential contributors are can see at one glance that it is an active project and well worth involving themselves with. Usability research on the internet shows very clearly that most people do not scroll down a page, unless their first view of a page grabs their attention. I think the to-do list should be treated as an advertisment as well as active tool. The current location of the to-do list (below the table of contents) means it is out of sight and so out of mind. ChrisG 07:08, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest placing the to-do list ala the regional noticeboards, with the to-do list at the top of the main page (i.e. Wikipedia:Australian wikipedians' notice board, with all the discussions going under that. Ambi 08:51, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd agree. In fact, I think a lot of the project pages could be based on the regional noticeboards. For instance, each project could have a COTW subpage. Filiocht 09:00, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Size of box could be smaller though--Xed 22:36, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location of the to-do list 

message: While there will always be room for improvement, I think we've reached the level of "unembarrassing" and should announce that this project is live. Anyone disagree? I'll give it 24 hours for objections, because I know people are in different time zones and all that. -- Jmabel 06:42, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
:I think we're ready. Filiocht 07:43, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. Ambi 09:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Not quite yet. Some things are not clear. Some things are too complicated. I'm away today, so I'll just list some things below --- Xed 13:07, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should go live. Just because we go live doesn't mean we can't continue to evolve as a project, there are always going to be issues to resolve. Moreover the more contributors the better, and I'm sure they will want to contribute to the ongoing discussion. Creating an issue list is a good idea though. :ChrisG 16:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Ready.--- Xed 23:00, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are we ready to "go live"?