Talk:2000s energy crisis

message: Is it an energy crisis or, more rightly, a petroleum crisis ?. Really, the problem with petroleum. --Mac (talk) 06:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Same thing, considering that most petroleum is used as an energy source. The phrases are used interchangibly, see energy crisis. - Shiftchange (talk) 08:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree... IMO Mac is correct, there is no coal or natural gas crisis, no electricity crisis in general, and the crisis (if you will insist on calling it that rather than a price escalation) is largely confined to petroleum.  Petroleum makes up about 40% of world energy use if I recall correctly.  I was partial to the article's old name, clumsy as it was...  TastyCakes (talk) 20:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the trouble is that it's all connected to energy... if we just had enough "alternative energy" we wouldn't need oil, or if the Pickens plan works we wouldn't need oil (supposedly), or if we didn't use so much energy we wouldn't need oil...  it's the reliance on oil which drove up the prices, not the other way around (although it was the cheap price of oil that got us hooked).  No, there is no petroleum ciris (yet) because, now that consumption has been dropping we have some surplus... and today the price even dropped below $90.  When we have a petroleum crisis (if it's not far enough into the future that we manage to switch to a more sustainable lifestyle) you will know it... and there might not be a wikipedia on which to read about it.  :)  NJGW (talk) 20:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The point I (and apparently Mac) was trying to make is that petroleum and electricity markets remain distinct, with petroleum used almost exclusively (energy wise) for transportation.  Electricity prices have not risen to anywhere near the same degree as petroleum because of this disconnect.  And as for "alternative energy", it is largely dealing with electricity, so without an electric car or some way to generate a fuel using only electricity it doesn't do a whole lot of good.  Even if we used less energy, we would probably still use oil because the internal combustion engine is still such an attractive piece of technology for moving people and things around.  But this is besides the point, the question remains: why is this article called the 2000s energy crisis?  It involves only energy used for transportation and in both of our opinions (apparently) doesn't classify as a crisis (yet).  TastyCakes (talk) 20:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Hmm you may have a point about the colloquial speech thing, but I'm pretty sure I hear "oil crisis" a lot more than "energy crisis" today as well as in reference to the oil shocks of the 1970s.  The other articles names are conflicting, including the 1973 oil crisis and the 1979 energy crisis (that article, like this one, talks exclusively about oil).  They also seem to differ from the recent situation in that these were relatively short term events and resulted in severe gasoline shortages (not just high prices), a situation that hasn't happened this time around and, I believe, makes it less "crisis-like".  TastyCakes (talk) 22:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I was disappointed by the renaming of this article from its original, technically precise title: Oil price increases since 2003. Calling the oil crisis an "energy crisis" is as imprecise as referring to, say, the hyperinflation in Zimbabwe as a "money crisis." It is true that the Zimbabwean dollar is a type of money, but that particular type of money is having problems quite distinct from many other currencies in the world. Implying that all forms of money are equivalent is misleading, perhaps dangerously so, and would be an excessive abstraction bordering on original work. In many situations the form of money you are dealing with may matter quite a bit, and the different forms of money are more readily interchangeable than the different sources of energy. All forms of energy can be regarded as equivalent in some sense from the first law of thermodynamics, but if that's all there were to it, the United States with its massive coal reserves would be a net energy exporter rather than the world's largest energy importer. Coal is not as useful a source of energy as petroleum is because petroleum has a combination of desirable characteristics unmatched by any other energy source. From engineering and economic standpoints there are all sorts of constraints and limitations on which sources of energy can substitute for which other sources in given applications. Consider: as long as some recoverable oil remains in the ground, it is possible to drill for oil, extract it, refine it, and use it, with processes powered entirely by oil. Oil is the only form of energy flexible enough to meet virtually every energy need (with a few niche exceptions such as the practical advantages of nuclear reactors on military submarines). No other energy source can make that claim today. Every other energy source requires some oil for its production. For example, wind power must consume liquid fuels during the transport and erection of wind turbines. Building a wind farm consumes liquid fuels, and while the wind farm quickly pays back the energy consumed in its construction, it never pays back the liquid fuels. The same is true for nuclear power. And coal. And natural gas. All require petroleum for their production, and none can pay back the liquid fuels consumed in their production (not yet, anyway). We can think of wind power in its current form, then, as a way to generate a lot more electricity from burning a given amount of petroleum than you get by burning the petroleum directly in a thermal power plant. As pointed out above, the petroleum supply problem is to a first approximation a liquid fuels problem. The world has something like a few tens of trillions of dollars invested in a fleet of vehicles that can only run on liquid fuels, which won't be replaced quickly, and either they will run on liquid fuels from petroleum or they won't run at all. Biofuels cannot take up more than a small percentage of the slack in the near future. (It is possible to generate a liquid fuel using only electricity, water, and air - it's called ammonia, and it can burn pretty well in existing internal combustion engines with some adjustments - but there isn't nearly enough electricity available on short notice to generate the amount of ammonia it would take to replace petroleum. There could be if we undertook a massive increase in wind power, for example, but that could not happen quickly. It's also possible to use electricity to convert water and carbon dioxide into mid-alcohols with the reverse water gas shift reaction, but again that's not going to happen on a large scale quickly.) Rather than an "energy crisis" we are having a liquid fuels crisis and thus a transportation crisis, temporarily masked by a sharp contraction in economic activity due to the Global financial crisis of 2008. If technological progress (e.g. ultracapacitors for portable high-density storage of electrical energy) increases the flexibility of other energy sources, making it possible for example for wind power to power its own construction entirely, then the markets for other energy sources will become more tightly linked with the petroleum market. Thus one might regard the techno-fixes such as plug-in hybrids as attempts to expand the petroleum crisis into a true energy crisis, such that a severe shortage of petroleum would cause a commensurate increase in demand for, say, electricity. That would make the crisis more manageable, to be sure, since we have no way to put more oil in the ground, while the available wind and solar resources are vast and durable. But for the time being it's mostly a petroleum crisis, and calling it an energy crisis does some violence to the nonspecialist's ability to comprehend what is going on. In the United States, for example, we import almost 70% of the petroleum we consume, with the percentage steadily increasing, and transport accounts for about 70% of the petroleum we consume, with transport relying on petroleum for about 97% of its energy. Thus one can view the United States as being almost entirely dependent on other countries for its transport. This is a tremendously important sector of the U.S. economy which is almost entirely outside of domestic control now. And should the supply of oil available for the U.S. to import begin dropping due to geological factors, faster than the U.S. can rebuild its transport to run on something else, then this tremendously important sector of the U.S. economy will be outside the control of any humans. --Teratornis (talk) 07:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So... You're for renaming the article?  TastyCakes (talk) 18:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Energy crisis or petroleum crisis? 

message: "...worries over Iranian nuclear plans in 2006". Shouldn it be "worries over an armed conflict between USA and Iran" ?--Ezzex (talk) 16:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm I'd argue it was worries about conflict between Iran and the west in general, which even if it hadn't escalated to armed conflict may have resulted in Iran trying to close the Straight of Hormuz to tanker traffic.  The cause of this friction between Iran and much of the rest of the world was it's continued nuclear development plans.  So I don't think I'd agree with changing that sentence, not to what you're proposing anyway.  TastyCakes (talk) 17:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  objectivity in this sentence? 

message: The theory, or perhaps Arab propaganda, that the oil reserves have exceeded their median volume should be included in the article (so called "spike oil").
Some comment about "demand destruction" in the second and third quarter of 2008 should also be included.  — [Unsigned .]
:Is there a source you're referring to for the "Spike oil"?  Also, please refrain from pejorative terms such as "Arab propaganda" unless you are discussing their usage within sources.  Right now the energy crisis and financial crisis are highly conflated, so we need to be careful how issues like these are discussed.  NJGW (talk) 18:56, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Spike Oil" and Demand Destruction 

message: Upon request, this article has been proposed for deletion, October 3rd, 2009.--Environnement2100 (talk) 09:05, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: article for deletion

message: Now that the mid-2008 oil price hikes to near $150/bbl. have passed and prices plummeted to less than a fourth of its peak, I'm wondering if it's time to change some of the prediction statements to past tense. For instance, a sentence reading, "John Doe, an analyst for XYZ Corp., predicts that oil will hit $200 per barrel by Labor Day," would now read "John Doe, an analyst for XYZ Corp., predicted (emphasis mine) that oil will hit $200 per barrel by Labor Day." Some of the quoted material would now need to be paraphrased to place emphasis on past tense, but that can easily be done. In essence, I think it may be time to revamp sections of this article, as they are now past tense. The sources can remain, as they pertain to valid quotes; it's just that some of the wording may need to be changed. [[Briguy52748 (talk) 16:23, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing present tense to past 

message: I am removing the following sentence, pertaining to three living persons:
Futures speculators related to major oil producers, such as Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah Muizzaddin of Brunei Shell Petroleum, Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud and Russian Vagit Alekperov of LUKoil, may have artificially boosted prices by speculating in the oil futures market.
The citation immediately follows the list of these three individuals by saying: "No, we're not implicating any of these guys in market rigging…" The citation thus cannot be used to justify the claim that they did, in fact, engage in market rigging. YardsGreen (talk) 11:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah Muizzaddin, et al. 

message: this article seems quite POV energy crisis, increases in prices can have posative impacts for sellers vs buyers such as increased tax for those nations and more employment returns to investors etc which gives posative economic outcomes. Maybe a better take on it would be the 2000s energy shock, spike.
also another thing just because say oil goes up in price dosent mean that it is bad as it may cause structural change in the economy resulting lower long run cost to consumers eg Japan and Brazil. 
Digmores (talk) 04:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I still agree that a better name for this article would be "2000s energy cost spike" or something like that.  "Crisis" is not a neutral term, and it isn't widely used enough to qualify as a non-neutral but common name, as the 1970s events were.  Also, if we are going to call it an "energy" spike or crisis, more should be added regarding other energy sources, namely electricity and natural gas price changes during the period.  TastyCakes (talk) 19:24, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:   non NPOV pov article 

message: I question the title of this article. Is crisis really the most apt term? Certainly it may have been a crisis for certain businesses, for a certain period of time, but to describe the overall phenomenon as a "crisis" strikes me as melodramatic. Calling it a crisis almost seems POV. Wouldn't a term such as "2000s energy price increases" be a more accurate and neutral name? Peregrine981 (talk) 20:42, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  As I argued above, I think a better name for the article would be "Oil price escalation between 2003 and 2008".  TastyCakes (talk) 22:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  crisis? 

message: thumb|right|80px|Chevron at MIA
There was just a huge jump in the fuel prices in Miami, and this is the most expensive gas station I know, it is located right next to an inter-modal center for Miami International Airport. Daniel Christensen (talk) 18:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: A photo of very high gas and diesel prices in Miami in early March, 2011

message: :Here is the same station, the most expensive in South Florida, at it's peak prices over the past few days, it is now expected to start falling, never quite hit a true five a gallon...... :( Daniel Christensen (talk) 13:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Mid April peak

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message: Hi,
I'm concerned that this recent edit overplays the role of speculation; it cites an editorial which is in turn based on other more heavyweight sources (impressive for an editorial) but the editorial does hype it up a little. For instance, one of the authorities cited by the editorial concludes with things like "Global demand remained the primary driver of oil prices from 2000 to 2009". Secondly, the editorial is talking about fuel prices now, rather than the previous trend in fuel prices which is the subject of the article. (Thirdly, it's totally US-centric, but we can worry about that later). bobrayner (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speculation 

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I have just modified 3 external links on 2000s energy crisis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080804142037/http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/feature_articles/2004/worldoilsupply/oilsupply04.html to http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/feature_articles/2004/worldoilsupply/oilsupply04.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080909205842/http://cst.uwinnipeg.ca/documents/Transport_Greenhouse.pdf to http://cst.uwinnipeg.ca/documents/Transport_Greenhouse.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080913172237/http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/MEC_Past/index.html to http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/MEC_Past/index.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:13, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I noticed that this link to the State Department Foreign Press Center's page about Hurricane Katrina is no longer working, and so I changed the status from live to dead, as well as adding a dead link template. This is my first time editing a Wikipedia article, so I missed anything please feel free to ping me on my Talk page. --PhillipEGruenemay (talk) 22:11, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Link 20