Talk:Church cantata (Bach)

message: I've started disambiguating some of the cantatas with duplicate incipits- not systematically, just as I come across them.  I've done it in the form Ach Gott, wie manches Herzeleid etc.  It would be nice to be consistent about the way we do it, since we have more than one list to do it on. Mark1 11:34, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not needed anymore because all the Bach cantatas have now a unique name "title in German, BWV #". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Disambiguating

message: Some time ago I had suggested to include the prescribed readings to this list and was advised not to blow it up even more. Recently the titles were expanded and readings added, but without a link to the actual bible text. The cantata articles have both a link to the text and an explanation of the feast day. I do not consider this information useful in the list. Please discuss such a change before applying it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition, change of the directory titles broke the links to the sections. Please discuss such a change before applying it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lutheran Perikopes 

message: The annual Reformation Day Feast is not outside the liturgical year in the Lutheran (or any other "Protestant") Church, but rather is a fixed Feast day on 31 October every year (and thus should be placed in the Trinity season).  Also along the same lines, the Marian feasts should be placed in their respective seasons (Purification in Epiphany, Annunciation in Lent, and Visitation in Trinity).  So too the Feast day of St. John the Baptist and the Feast of St. Michael should be placed in Trinity season.  Thus the only items outside the liturgical year are items such as Funerary Cantatas, Wedding Cantatas, Cantatas for the Changing of Town Councils, Cantatas for Church and Organ dedications, and Cantatas for Bussgottesdienst (Confession service).  Dgljr5121973 (talk) 01:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This would be difficult, because where to put Reformation Sunday, which comes after (or on) a different "Sunday after Trinity" depending on the position of Easter. This year we had six Sundays after Epiphany. I suggest to have instead an additional section "Festivals on fixed dates within the liturgical year" - which would include Christmas, strictly speaking. Please discuss, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

text: "Buß- und Bettag" (Confession) was/is also "in" the liturgical year, the Wednesday before the last Sunday after Trinity. But I couldn't find out yet if already in Bach's time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:46, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I meant Reformation Day above (not Reformation Sunday). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Reformation Festival and Festivals with Fixed Dates

message: The article says that the maximum number of Sundays after Epiphany didn't occur while Bach wrote church cantatas. I think a header Epiphany V and VI is almost misleading, when the paragraph only says that there are no cantatas. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Epiphany V and VI 

message: On 10 April in the article, and remember that readers may arrive there by redirect, without explanation)
====Advent II====
#6 December 1716: Wachet! betet! betet! wachet! BWV 70a (in 1723 expanded to BWV 170 for Trinity XXVI)
#(5 December 1728: Erwache doch mein Herze)
Gerda's version, reflecting the differences mentioned above, note a link to context (here Weimar) after the cantata name:
==== Advent II====
, call of the Gentiles
, coming of the Son of man
* Wachet! betet! betet! wachet! BWV 70a, 6 December 1716 (Weimar)
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:08, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, please, make up your mind where you want to discuss this, state it clearly, so that all other places can be directed to the place where the discussion is held. Note that at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#Keep Church cantata (Bach) simple a discussion on the same is still open. Please assume good faith on me for suggesting to keep this discussion in one place, and thus avoid a fractured discussion on the same in several places. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:07, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compare 

message: , call of the Gentiles
, coming of the Son of man
* Wachet! betet! betet! wachet! BWV 70a, 6 December 1716 (Weimar)
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:08, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, please, make up your mind where you want to discuss this, state it clearly, so that all other places can be directed to the place where the discussion is held. Note that at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#Keep Church cantata (Bach) simple a discussion on the same is still open. Please assume good faith on me for suggesting to keep this discussion in one place, and thus avoid a fractured discussion on the same in several places. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:07, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Advent II

message: Preliminary (nothing definitive yet, just how things appear to be evolving):
* I was able to track first readings applicable to Telemann's Harmonischer Gottes-Dienst cantatas. Apart from a few exceptions (that are easily indicated, see e.g. Church cantata#Second Sunday after Christmas (New Year I)) these are the same as for Bach's cantatas. If anyone knows where further information on readings (in 18th-century Protestant Germany) can be obtained, I'd welcome that.
* Information on hymns that are associated with specific occasions would be still very welcome too.
* Reasons for keeping Church cantata (Bach) as a separate article:
*#Incoming section links (already mentioned above);
*#Information not retained in the Church cantata article:
*##Bach-specific introduction: introductions (the article's lead section and section introductions) are more general, shorter (too short according to Talk:Church cantata#Chorale melodies), and give somewhat less focus to Bach and Leipzig in the Church cantata article.
*##Cantata texts without extant music (there's still a lot of that in the Church cantata article, but there I'd include only the ones that have a separate Wikipedia article, or would have one in the foreseeable future). The Picander librettos written for Bach without extant music are imho rather suitable for Church cantata (Bach), than in an article that rather aims at info about church cantatas in general (a libretto without music not really being a very notable example of a cantata; but when it is mentioned in the Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis it is always some sort of Bach-cantata).
*##Information about cantatas that were once written for occasion X, and then later were adapted for occasion Y – also here that is not information relating to the "most famous examples" of church cantatas, but rather JSBach-specific (afaik it is also the only composer for whom such detailed information is available).
*##Detailed cycle information: neither for Telemann, nor for Bach or any other composer it is really feasible to give a good overview of the cantata cycles they composed. Also here for Bach, where much of the cycle info is based on educated guesswork needing verys specific references, that rather seems something for the church cantata (Bach) article.
Again, these are only working directions I adopt gradually, without having made definitive choices yet, and would welcome input on how to proceed. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:37, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your effort towards Church cantata: that article was sadly missing. I agree that we should leave this article Church cantata (Bach) separately. How exactly, we can discuss, but I will be busy with Reger until 11 May, the centenary. One wish for this article: et the reader see at a glance the primary extant cantatas for a occasion, as Dürr listed them, - that is how this article started, before my time here. Perhaps consider a third article, on the cycles, which could hold the details about repeat performances and cantatas for which the music is lost. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  "...as Dürr listed them": nah, the article's title is not The Cantatas of J.S. Bach – if you want an article that only retains content from that book by Dürr, start an article on the book (and even then you'd need third-party sources for at least half of the article's content). Whether that was how it was "before (anyone's) time here" is immaterial, we don't exclude content on the basis that it is not included in one among many reliable sources on the subject. Things have evolved since Dürr's cantata research, which was ground-breaking half a century ago, but not where matters remained for eternity. E.g. Shabalina's Russian discoveries in the 21st century (afaik largely adopted on the Bach-digital website) made revision of some of Dürr's ideas necessary, and, among other things, made the existence of the Picander cycle more likely again. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:29, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  You misunderstood me, sorry, possibly because I didn't take enough time (because I don't have it): the article is not an old book, but it started to be one, our average readers are used to seeing that, we don't have to confuse them with latest research. This article answered the simple question: which cantata(s) by Bach do we have for a given occasion, with a link to those cantatas. If I look at six lines (above) for Advent 1, I don't easily see them. Please find a way, which may be to write an article on the cycles and keep this simple, as I tried to say before. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:12, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Still, Church cantata (Bach) ≠ TOC of Dürr's The Cantatas of J.S. Bach. Don't know how to say that any simpler. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:09, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Update on progress of [[Church cantata]] article

message: List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach#Adaptations contains a link to List of adaptations by Ferruccio Busoni#Transcriptions (BV B 20 to 115) – clicking that deep link makes one arrive in the middle of a list where abbreviations and symbols such as "fp", "ded" and "＊" are used. What these mean is explained in the article's intro or by a link.
Church cantata (Bach) uses the abbreviation "Ascension I" for Exaudi Sunday, an abbreviation I have not seen used outside Wikipedia. Similar for Christmas 2 for St. Stephen's Day etc. 
There's no original research or irregularity in choosing a suitable abbreviation like "0." indicating cantatas composed before the first numbered cycle, especially as the abbreviation contains a link to the explanation of what it signifies. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:41, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: See above, I would prefer that nothing precedes the cantata title, sourced or unsourced, research or not, plain nothing: first the title, then secondary information. I still dislike "0.", even behind the title, because it assumes a numbering that is not there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:24, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Re. "I still dislike "0."" – I understand, but as such there isn't a problem with it. I'll give it some time, see whether another alternative pops up —will continue first on Church cantata anyhow—, after which I'll be adding  information to Church cantata (Bach) with the best available layout option I see then. Those who want to split it to another page can do so, but for the time being that rather looks like a WP:CONTENTFORK liability to me, and layout issues will have to be solved there too (so just moving the problem elsewhere). --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:07, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Abbreviation or symbol for "cantata composed before the numbered cycles"

message: :For further context see Church cantata § Last Sunday before Lent (Estomihi)
Cantatas:
* Jesus nahm zu sich die Zwölfe, BWV 22
* Du wahrer Gott und Davids Sohn, BWV 23
* Herr Jesu Christ, wahr' Mensch und Gott, BWV 127
* Sehet, wir gehn hinauf gen Jerusalem, BWV 159
BWV 22 and 23 were first presented in Leipzig on Estomihi Sunday  as part of Bach's application for the post of Thomaskantor. He restaged both cantatas on , and thus they became the Estomihi cantatas of his first year cycle. BWV 23 exists in three versions: a 1722–23 version in C minor (three movements), the 1723–24 Leipzig version in B minor (four movements), and a third version in C minor with four movements (1728–31).
BWV 127 is a chorale cantata first performed on . It belongs to Bach's second cantata cycle. On , in his third year in Leipzig, Bach presented a cantata by his second cousin Johann Ludwig: Ja, mir hast du Arbeit gemacht, JLB 5.Bach Digital Work  at  BWV 159, on a libretto by Picander, was first presented on  and belongs to Bach's fourth cantata cycle. 
----
? --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:59, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Estomihi

message: It seems that article titles are supposed to be singular, as is true for this article only after a recent change. That seems to me questionable. I would vote for
restoring the previous form "cantatas". Similarly, I would vote to keep "Mozart piano concertos" as it is, as opposed to changing it to "Mozart piano concerto". Marlindale (talk) 23:14, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plural vs. singular titles 

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