Talk:Insurgency in the Maghreb (2002–present)

message: I suppose that for those familiar with the acronyms used this article makes sense as is, but for the rest of us defining the acronym the first time used would make this article intelligible. Mapjc 16:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Acronym]]

message: Why is it called Islamic insurgency and not just insurgency? Everyone is muslim in thathis area. You don't have something called "christian insurgency" either right? - PietervHuis (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Islamic]] [[insurgency]]

message: The # killed figure proffered at http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11945  (6,000) and added to the infobox is for the entire Algerian insurgency since the 80s, not the GSPC/AQIM attacks since 2002, and so is inaccurate.  T L Miles (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not according to the source: Conflict waged against the government by the Islamist militia group the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat, which has allied itself with the Al Qaeda Organisation in the Islamic Maghreb. Insurgency is marked by terrorist attacks such as suicide bombings. Death toll 6,000 on both sides. IT does not mention 1980s, it says 2002-onwards. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lives lost 

message: This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement.  Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Nick-D (talk) 23:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible copyright problem 

message: This article takes some real issues, the Algerian Islamist insurgency and the new AQMI banditry in southern Algeria, Mali, Mauritania and vastly exaggerates the scope. There is no real 'insurgency' in either Tunisia nor Morocco. This article needs massive revision. --collounsbury (talk) 12:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: By all means, if you see problems that need correcting, and you have reliable sources that verify what you're saying, please go ahead and make the appropriate changes. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, that is part of the problem, this page is full of utterly unsupported assertions. The individual incidents are real enough, the story woven is utterly unrecognizable to myself. Proving a negative is evidently impossible, it is up to the person advancing this mythology to demonstrate it exists. This is of the worst things about wikipedia, this sort of nonsense. --collounsbury (talk) 18:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

text:  First, the actual subject / title strikes me as incorrect. There is not an "insurgency" in the Maghreb. I am not aware of any serious support for that. There is clearly an ongoing insurgency in Algeria, and an emerging problem in the Sahel - not the Maghreb, the Sahel, as well as the Sahara. As such, I do not see any support for the overall story this article is weaving. In looking at the history, this began, correctly as an article focused on Algeria. I would remove the absurd assertions of an insurgency touching on (a) Morocco, (b) the Spanish territories, (c) Tunisia. There is absolutely no factual support in that article to support advancing the idea that there is an insurgency touching any of these territories. --collounsbury (talk) 19:27, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't know that there's any person specifically advancing a certain narrative. Wikipedia is a collaborative, dynamic, user-generated encyclopedia. I've definitely seen stories discussing an insurgency in the Maghreb, but I agree there doesn't seem to be a lot of basis for claiming it affects, say, Ceuta and Melilla. There have been suicide attacks in Morocco and I believe in Tunis as well; I think AQIM has claimed responsibility for those. But if you feel this article needs a rewrite and that you're qualified, I would strongly encourage you to make the changes you want to see. If that means a major reconstruction, so be it. I certainly have no objections. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am aware of how Wiki works, I have edited articles on the Maghreb here since 2006, when I have time, which is not greatly. There has never been a suicide bombing in Tunisia, and the Moroccan attacks have no established connexion with an "insurgency" - my job is investing in this region, I bloody well follow such things. AQIM never claimed responsbility for the Moroccan attacks as they occured before it existed, while the Marrakech attack was by two cretins who got their bomb making knowledge from internet fora. When I have time, I will edit to match reality (and as well what one can find on the actual country pages here where one can see rather readily that only Algeria matches the claims made on this bizarre page). --collounsbury (talk) 20:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Things have changed a great deal since this conversation. Jim Michael (talk) 10:17, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deeply Flawed Article: As an actual Specialist in the Maghreb, most bemused 

message: As I am proposing to fundamentally change this article, as I believe its titling and thesis (that there is something rising to the level of an 'insurgency' in the Maghreb beyond Algeria and that the primary focus is on the Maghreb) is completely unsupported, I believe it appropriate to raise this first in Talk.
First, title and focus:
# Numbered list item: There is not an insurgency in any ordinary meaning of the term in the Maghreb. There is an Islamic terror group insurgency in Algeria, spilling over into the Sahel. This is the AQIM movement coming out of the Groupe Salafiste
# Numbered list item: The article advances by implication connexions between various events that are not supported (e.g. Chad, isolated events in Morocco, Tunisia - including some which pre-date the emergence of AQIM and the pretension to regionalisation.
# Numbered list item: The title ignores what the facts and analysis indicate, the real focus of action is in the Sahel, not the Maghreb proper (ex Algeria).
I would thus propose to rename the article as Islamic Terror Movements in the Maghreb and the Sahel. alternatively it could be entitled Islamic Terror in the Maghreb and the Sahel. Or some variation on the above. I see no substantive support for using the term Insurgency outside of the Algerian context. I draw attention that if one looks at the multiple wiki pages for the Maghreb countries, one finds absolutely no support outside of the Algerian page for advancing the idea of an Insurgency. Internal to wikipedia, thus one can get a picture of a more supportable article.
I would also propose removing the map, as it has no discernable support, having been made by a wiki user and does not appear to be based on any substantive authority.
Regarding support for this approach and analysis, I draw attention to these substantive analyses:
* Bulleted list item: Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb: Algerian Challenge or Global Threat?, Jean-Pierre Filiu, Carnegie Institute Papers, No. 104 (PDF): 2009 , notably discussing AQIM's capacity even to reach out of Algeria;
* Bulleted list item: Maghreb & Sahel Terrorism: Addressing the Rising Threat from al-Qaeda & other Terrorists in North & West/Central Africa, Yonah Alexander, Director International Center for Terrorism Studies, the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies January 2010 (PDF) which helpfully has on p. 2 a mapping of attack events since 11 September by country of focus (Sahel and Maghreb) rather clearly putting lie to the concept of a Maghreb insurgency (versus Algeria and perhaps Sahel) - also see p. 14. While I find the counting (e.g. Morocco as 5 in 2007, quite the 'splitter' way to count for the 2007 event) to be aggressive to say the least, at least the source is well-respected and neutral (if very security mindset).
* Bulleted list item: the 2011 update to the above report, which includes a threat map (PDF) (p. 2) that again notably highlights the locus of "hot activity" in the Sahel and Algerian Sahara.  
* Bulleted list item: the post Arab spring 2012 update to the above two (PDF), with substantially the same message.
* Bulleted list item: A similar analysis by the respected Middle East Institute, "Terrorism in North Africa and the Sahel: Al-Qa‘ida’s Franchise or Freelance" Policy Brief No. 34, August 2011 (PDF), Jacques Roussellier. (an instructor at American Military University). Here again the enumerated actual incidents connected with an organized movement, AQIM, are focused on Algeria and the Sahel.
It is worth quoting the abstract.
This Policy Brief examines the real and imagined influence of al-Qa‘ida in North Africa and the Sahel. Despite a perception of the transnationalization of terrorist movements in North Africa under al-Qa‘ida’s banner, robust evidence of an effective al-Qa‘ida’s expansion in the Maghreb and the Sahara/Sahel region remains elusive at best. Rather, doubts about al-Qa‘ida’s actual threat and the efficacy of international response in the context of pervasive state failure in the Sahel raise questions regarding the policy objectives of US-led counter-terrorism in the region.
I submit that the current article contains no analytical support for its thesis of an insurgency in the Maghreb, and from these three recent and respected analyses (collapsing the 3 Potomac analyses into one) from 2009-2012, it is clear that the actual nexus is the Algerian Sahara, plus the Sahel. Wikipedia has shamefully had this article up for several years, advancing a proposition that has no support in reality. The article must be utterly reworked. collounsbury (talk) 11:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: This article hasn't been updated since November 2011, meanwhile Northern Mali conflict (2012–present) seems to have picked up where it left off. Sort of a confusing jumble of articles: List of modern conflicts in North Africa, plus all the terrorist group articles and country history articles. And, this "article" is really just an index of external links fashionably presented as citations with short summaries. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 09:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename Article, Refocus 

message: This article continues to be a dubious and incoherent, as User:Green Cardamom notes in Jan 2013, "this 'article' is really just an index of external links fashionably presented as citations with short summaries." collounsbury (talk) 08:41, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename or Breakup 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Material from this article has been copied to Wikipedia page 2010s political history.Michael E Nolan (talk) 19:38, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material copied to another Wikipedia page 

message: I do not think that Burkina-Faso can fall under the definition. Do we have sources specifically linking Burkina Faso events to this topic?GreyShark (dibra) 05:39, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Burkina Faso]] in the Maghreb?

message: I understand that the country is not part of the Maghreb region, but as far as I understand this conflict now spans across both the Maghreb and the Sahel regions.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorgedweller (talk • contribs) 08:35, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addid Burkina-Faso as a belligerent?