Talk:Scalping

message: "Kelsey pg. 303" is a very sparse citation reference.  The reference probably warrants removal.  And unless stated so, the reference (However, American historians have noted that there was no proof that he had ever offered rewards for scalps,[43] and it is now believed that no British officer paid for scalps during the American Revolution.[44]) should more likely read that "Kelsey believed that no British officer paid for scalps during the American Revolution."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.149.64.24 (talk) 22:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation 44

message: The caption of the picture of McGee linked to Little 
Turtle, the Miami chief, who died in 1812. So I unlinked it. Perhaps Little Turtle should be a disambiguation page.
"...but this belief is not supported by most academic scholars." Could we have a source for this statement, please? Noknokcpu 11:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled Section

message: Is it really appropriate to cite the occurrence of a scalping incident circa 74 BC as truth when the only source is the Book of Mormon?
Corundrum (talk) 03:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Moroni / Book of Mormon citation

message: As I found the sentence ' Scyths helped the scalper confess his love for her. ' unintelligible, I looked for other translations of this passage. The translation from which this quotation has been lifted, to be found at http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Herodotus/Book_4, doesn't feature it. Another translation, to be found at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2707/2707-h/2707-h.htm, doesn't seem to have a sentence equivalent to the one in question either. My guess is someone is trying to pull us a leg.
Agree - my Greek is not very good but from looking at the original in Melpomene 64 (e.g. here: http://books.google.com/books?id=f_4wAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR97&dq=herodotus+book+4&hl=en&ei=ReHHS8P2BYO0lQehwcXEAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=hestia&f=false) I can tell that THAT is not in there. Out it goes ... :-)
--Hakseng (talk) 04:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Herodotus quotation 

message: 'To lay hands on him would sully the hands of the warrior, as Custer displayed his cowardice and shot himself upon seeing the Sioux women preparing to kill him [b]in their way[/b] as he was surrounded.' What is meant by 'in their way'?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.242.17 (talk) 15:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shady part of a sentence 

message: Surely there should be reference here of the fact that British and American government officials often put bounty on the scalps of Native American people -- men, women, and children -- when they were at war for refusing to give up their land?  See, for example, the June 10, 1756 proclamation of the House of Representatives in Boston which placed a bounty of $40 for the scalp of a Penobscot man, and $20 for the scalp of a Penobscot woman or male child under twelve.  Later upgraded to 300 pounds per scalp.  See Frank Speck's book Penobscot Man, pages xix-xx.
If I write this I will struggle to make in NPOV, but it's a travesty that there's no real mention of the history of the scalping of Native Americans by white settlers here.  The only mentions here are disputed cases.
156.56.145.58 (talk) 20:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scalps for bounty 

message: The coward statement should be removed unless properly cited.  Two wounds were found in Custers body one to the chest another to the temple.  It is possible that he committed suicide rather than be captured.  Other alternate theories abound.
"Many of the corpses were stripped, scalped, and mutilated; some having their skulls crushed. Custer’s body had two bullet holes, one in the left temple and one just above the heart. His body was stripped but not mutilated; although there were some superficial wounds probably not mentioned by those who found him. Early reports attributed this to the respect the Indians had for his valor but it is doubtful he was recognized as he was dressed in buckskins and his “long Hair” was cut short before the battle. Others claim his body was protected by the Cheyenne, who recognized him from his earlier campaigns against them at the Battle of the Washita." from http://www.blackhillsportal.com/npps/story.cfm?id=2150
"It is said that the Indians did not scalp or mutilate Custer's body out of respect for his fighting ability, but few participating Indians knew who he was. To this day no one knows the real reason they left his body intact" http://www.jalapenocafe.com/portfolio/fame_fortune/things.html
Also Sitting Bulls opinion of Custer from and interview contradicts the coward theory...
Did you know the Long Haired Chief?" I asked Sitting Bull.
"No."
"What! Had you never seen him?" 
"No. Many of the chiefs knew him." 
"What did they think of him?" 
"He was a great warrior."
"Was he brave?"
"He was a mighty chief."
"Now, tell me. Here is something that I wish to know. Big lies are told about the fight in which the Long Haired Chief was killed. He was my friend. No one has come back to tell the truth about him, or about that fight. You were there; you know. Your chiefs know. I want to hear something that forked tongues do not tell the truth."
They kept in pretty good order. Some great chief must have commanded them all the while. They would fall back across a coulee and make a fresh stand beyond on higher ground. The map is pretty nearly right. It shows where the white men stopped and fought before they were all killed. I think that is right -- down there to the left, just above the Little Bighorn. There was one part driven out there, away from the rest, and there a great many men were killed. The places marked on the map are pretty nearly the places where all were killed."
"Did the whole command keep on fighting until the last?"
"Every man, so far as my people could see. There were no cowards on either side." 
"I have talked with my people; I cannot find one who saw the Long Hair until just before he died. He did not wear his long hair as he used to wear it. His hair was like yours," said Sitting Bull, playfully touching my forehead with his taper fingers. "It was short, but it was of the color of the grass when the frost comes."
"Did you hear from your people how he died? Did he die on horseback?"
"No. None of them died on horseback." 
"All were dismounted?"
"Yes."
"And Custer, the Long Hair?"
The Last to Die
"Well, I have understood that there were a great many brave men in that fight, and that from time to time, while it was going on, they were shot down like pigs. They could not help themselves. One by one the officers fell. I believe the Long Hair rode across once from this place down here (meaning the place where Tom Custer's and Smith's companies were killed) to this place up here (indicating the spot on the map where Custer fell), but I am not sure about this. Any way it was said that up there where the last fight took place, where the last stand was made, the Long Hair stood like a sheaf of corn with all the ears fallen around him."
"Not wounded?" 
"No."
"How many stood by him?" 
"A few."
"When did he [Col. George A. Custer] fall?"
"He killed a man when he fell. He laughed." 
"You mean he cried out."
"No, he laughed; he had fired his last shot." 
"From a carbine?"
"No, a pistol."
"Did he stand up after he first fell?"
"He rose up on his hands and tried another shot, but his pistol would not go off."
"Was any one else standing up when he fell down?"
"One man was kneeling; that was all. But he died before the Long Hair. All this was far up on the bluffs, far away from the Sioux encampments. I did not see it. It is told to me. But it is true."
Not Scalped
"The Long Hair was not scalped?"
"No. My people did not want his scalp." 
"Why?"
"I have said; he was a great chief."
http://www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/sitting_bull_little_big_horn.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.74.24.2 (talk) 20:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coward 

message: I've erased the section on scalping in Northern Europe. 
"Joe Scalps?" Come on - at least be clever! Just regurgitated cuts and pastes from various googles of the term "scalp" (i.e. the bibleo references given). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.135.174.83 (talk) 04:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixing vandalism 

message: Article Vlad III the Impaler states: ("scalping", for the Turks, meant cutting the edges of the face and pulling the face's skin off, while the person was still alive and conscious). Any truth to it? The Merciful 16:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is only anti Turkish propaganda.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:F5:CF01:4160:981B:FDD5:DE45:C99B (talk) 21:44, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turkish Skalping? 

message: There were British and American generals who paid for scalps, but the evidence is that Hamilton was not one of them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by BradMajors (talk • contribs) 22:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hamilton

message: There seems to be very little (which is to say nothing) in this article about the actual act of scalping and its physiological repercussions. Could some information on this aspect be added, please. 83.102.22.38 (talk) 15:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I wanted to ask the same thing. So, seconded. Shinobu (talk) 16:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: An interesting resource in this area of study is here: General James Robertson, Frontier Surgeon. It details the efforts of James Robertson (one of the founders of Nashville) who adapted methods taught to him by Dr. Patrick Vance in treating scalping victims. In particular, it covers the story of Nashville settler David Hood, who survived a scalping and was successfully treated. There is actually a significant amount of data on the medical effects of scalping in the papers of Dr. Felix Robertson, the General's son. When I have time, I will flesh out (no pun intended) a section on the medical effects and treatment for scalping victims. Joelmoses 2000 (talk) 22:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I came here to say the same thing.  It is not clear from reading this article if it is even fatal.  ~Andrew Keenan Richardson 04:53, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

text: I don't see any possibility how anyone can live without a scalp but with a bare-bone skull. --2003:F5:CF01:4160:981B:FDD5:DE45:C99B (talk) 21:49, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medical consequences, etc. 

message: The North America section is really poorly written (especially the first paragraph). It's just a mess of random facts that aren't really in order. Someone (with more knowledge than me) needs to re-write it. XAlpha (talk) 19:26, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  North America 

message: Were scalpings sometimes done that left the hair in place? --69.225.5.4 (talk) 06:19, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Usually with the hair" 

message: This article has the history of scalping, but I looked up this link from British 'pitch-capping' so I could understand how scalping is done, which is not to be found here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.65.120 (talk) 13:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  How's it done? 

message: For many decades, it was claimed by the Politically Correct that the Indians had not scalped at all, but that it was a practice introduced by White Europeans.  Then Scientific American came out with a cover-article about "Pre-Columbian Scalpings" using carbon-dated skulls to put an end to such claims; around Sept. 2005 or thereabouts; why not discuss THAT?
74.56.49.18 (talk) 03:05, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political Correctness and Claims About Scalping 

message: I have repaired some, but as I am very ill I can't seem to figure out how to fix the picture of the oldest scalping on the page...now moved to the top.  Another issue I have is of 12 scalping pics 9 are Native American! REALLY folx...really? As it was a law and compensation was $60 in 1700 ...higher than any animal..why would hunters go into mountains when they had ready supply of savages to get?  Sad how racist this society is still.  sigh
Also, this is a worldwide site.  Not every country thinks US history...taught in US is accurate.. nor do they think of scalping as an exclusive American activity.  It is well known in Europe that Celts and other Eurasians were scalping and decapitating also for religious purposes.  Common... I trust Google...more than US textbook lies.  :-)  thank you 
I agree - I am really bothered by the final line after description of the Sand Creek massacre because it does not site a source and is vague enough to detract from the impact of what actually happened. - after describing what was, by all accounts, a horrendous and murderous situation entirely perpetuated by white people, there is a line that says "but nobody knows how many incidents with aggressive indians against peaceful white settlers occurred."  REALLY?  sure maybe they happened but let's not just vaguely speculate like that, there's plenty of data out there if you want to do some tit for tat.  This line is entirely unnecessary and seems to indicate that there were innumerable untold incidents with aggressive indians attacking whites.   Also it's not on the topic of scalping, but rather on general aggression during the indian wars.  It's not relevant and I find it misleading and anti- indian.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.164.82.137 (talk) 16:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Native slant and racist presentation to this Wiki page!   

message: As may be seen from the numerous edits and comments for this article on Scalping, the subject arouses both interest and passion, turning mainly around three questions:  how and where scalping originated, who practiced scalping and to what extent and under what circumstances did they do so, and why they scalped.
The assertion that Europeans introduced scalping to the Americas is rather far-fetched, given that no examples of the practice can be found in the well-documented national histories of Spain, Portugal, France, or England during or before exploration and colonization of the Americas.  It could not have been introduced to the Americas if it did not exist among the groups that were supposed to have introduced it.
There is well-documented Pre-Columbian archaeological evidence for scalping in the Americas, but the circumstances of the act of scalping are not those that would tend to create an extensive archaeological record.  The evidence of scalping at the Crow Creek site in present South Dakota, dated at approximately the year 1325, referenced in the basic article, was the result of the capture and destruction of an existing native village by a rival tribal group, thus providing a wealth of evidence for excavation at a single site.  An interesting summary of the research findings can be found at: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25669192?uid=3739736&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102762508447
For native peoples who engaged in scalping, many sources report that the practice had a cultural component that transcended the act itself, as a means of enhancing the reputation of the individual taking the scalp or documenting their bravery in taking it from a worthy opponent, or a documented act of revenge against an enemy group.  As native groups in the Americas did not use written records to document their cultural practices, evidence must rely either on physical evidence, for example, skeletal marks attributed to the act of scalping, from the accounts of observers from outside the native groups, or from accounts (documented later) derived from the oral traditions of native peoples.
  
It has also been asserted that Europeans promoted the spread of the practice of scalping through the enactment of “scalp bounties”.  Governmental bounties for scalps enacted during the period during and preceding the French and Indian Wars might be attributed, in the absence of information concerning actual bounties paid, to acts of political desperation by colonial governments with no effective practical response to frontier warfare.  I have not seen any data reflecting the actual effects of these bounties, and without it, claims that they helped spread the practice of scalping as a cultural (rather than purely economic) practice are not strongly supported.  If such data is found, it would need to be substantial to have made a difference.  I am very interested in information about the amount of bounties actually paid by colonial governments.  Please share any such data you find via this talk page.
Some individual instances of scalping by whites perpetrated against native peoples in North America, especially in the colonial period, can be attributed to revenge in retaliation for the scalping of white noncombatants in the numerous small incidents or engagements occurring along the frontier during local conflicts or colonial/imperial wars.  Although the modern concept of “asymmetrical warfare” did not exist at the time, it was a practical reality in combat between formal European tactics (in which large numbers of soldiers marched across an open area in straight lines and fired in unison on command at a facing enemy) and the more informal native methods that took full account of cover and terrain and emphasized small unit and individual action using irregular tactics.  General Braddock, to his misfortune, certainly found this to be true in his final campaign against the French and their native allies.  The 1992 movie Last of the Mohicans graphically portrays the typical warfare of the period.
Some instances of scalping were the work of sadistic sociopaths who simply enjoyed inflicting pain and flaunting their power over others, as illustrated by short but brutal career of William T. (“Bloody Bill”) Anderson and the activities of his band of thugs in Missouri and Kansas during the Civil War.  Anderson and company were reported to have taken and displayed the scalps of some of their victims as part of their terror tactics (terror tactics = using a combination of force and fear to achieve political or military ends) in opposing Union forces and their civilian sympathizers.
  
I may undertake some major revisions of the article on Scalping along the lines of these thoughts toward the end of 2013 or early 2014, and would welcome a dialogue with other interested parties in this talk section before that time.  James809 (talk) 13:56, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Suggested Principles for Investigating the Practice of Scalping and Revising this Article 

message: British armed the locals and introcued extensively the practice of scalping to native Indians. You might not read this on BBC channel but this is an historical fact!! 213.215.224.154 (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  British introduced scalpling to Native Americans? 

message: I've revised the definition of scalping to concentrate on the act itself.  This allows more detailed exploration of cultural context, scope, and history later in the article.  I also compressed what I would call geographical scope or extent of scalping into just two categories, Scalping in the Old World and Scalping in the Americas.  This allows for expansion under each category without having to make yet another main header.  And the second category is the Americas rather than North America because recent scholarship has examined human trophy-taking in Central and South America as well, and Scalping in the Americas allows examples from those areas without changing the main header. I know that the text under Scalping in the Americas is rather choppy, leans heavily on colonial warfare and scalp bounties, and almost completely neglects the part played by scalping as an element of the complex native cultures within which it was practiced.  Let's remedy that in a way that respects all while filling out the historical record in a helpful way.  I will continue periodic revisions, but choose to do them serially rather than all at once to allow time for dialogue. I would welcome discussion via this talk page -- James809 (talk) 17:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revision of Definition 

message: I previously added the section "Scalping in the Old World" to the article without changing much existing content, and balanced it with a section, "Scalping in the Americas", likewise doing little with existing content.  Here's some perspective on what will shortly appear as revisions in the Old World section.  
Out of the broad sweep of documented history, very little narrative evidence exists for the existence of scalping as a cultural trophy-taking practice in the Old World (Europe, Asia, and Africa).  In fact, the only example I've found that passes the definition test is the single citation from Herodotus concerning the Scythians.  What, one might ask, of the many examples cited by many writers that seem to stem from the first millennium of Old World history?  Well, upon more detailed examination, they don't qualify as scalping.  Scalping as just a method of torture does not qualify as "scalping" for the purpose of this article.  Neither do other citations concerning scalping given that have no elements of trophy-taking and are not a cultural practice. Apart from the single reference concerning the Scythians, Herodotus makes no other mention of scalping in all of his Histories. There is no mention of scalping in any of Tacitus.  Julius Caesar does not mention scalping in his Commentaries, and he had direct contact with most of the native peoples of Gaul, plus some of the Germanic and British peoples. Marco Polo’s Il Milione (Travels), c.1300 AD, contains no reference to scalping over the course of Polo’s journeys through China and central Asia. 
Certainly, as the aphorism suggests, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", yet one would expect that chroniclers would have noted a cultural practice as dramatic and interesting as scalping had they observed it.  My current working hypothesis is that scalping as a cultural practice was generally absent from the Old World as far as narrative evidence is concerned.  I have not yet begun research on archaeological evidence, but will do so.  Scalping leaves a characteristic pattern of cut marks on the skull.  If scalping was done post-mortem, cut marks are relatively clear.  If done on a living subject, the victim may well survive (scalping was not, in itself, fatal) and remains will show some bone growth as the victim ages.  There is a growing body of New World archaeological evidence of scalping as a cultural practice before European contact.  There may be an Old World body of archaeological evidence as well.  We'll see. Since Wikipedia is a living document, we can update it as new evidence appears.
One example of erroneous narrative evidence that I was able to research is that of a writer who cited a reference to the law code of King Alfred as evidence of the existence of scalping in Saxon England.  On further examination (and so many online resources allowing easy access to digitized documents from any era make this relatively easy), this proved to be a reference to a fine imposed on ruffians who forcibly removed someone else's scalp, to be paid to the king through his enforcement structure, just as there were fines for other kinds bodily harm inflicted on others (e.g. loss of a finger, an arm, an ear, a life).  Of course, this was part of an initial attempt to establish a formal legal system that would end blood feuds by establishing a formula of compensation for wrongs inflicted on others. Anglo-Saxon Britain was a rather unruly place. At present, there seems to be no clear evidence to show that scalping was a trophy-taking cultural practice in Saxon Britain. 
Here's a thought.  Let's try to add more instances of scalping as a cultural practice to the Old World section, but only after researching them back to the original source material if possible.  So much has been written about scalping by so many people that a lot of the material is just recycled again and again without regard to verifying its accuracy.  
Incidentally, here is one curious report of Old World scalping that probably should be included in the Old World section -- the 1845 observation, by the soldier of fortune John Duncan, of some seven hundred scalps taken over the course of many years and displayed by a contingent of female soldiers employed by the King of Dahomey (present-day Republic of Benin), but no other sources report any supporting cultural practices from the area. If anyone could find a source to indicate that such scalp-taking was broader than this military example, it would be interesting.  If one believes that the Duncan's account is reliable, then the issue is whether scalp-taking was trophy taking in a broader sense (reflective of a societal practice) or an isolated instance undertaking by the military unit to strike fear into potential opponents.  
I would welcome comments and discussion on any of this -- 
James809 (talk) 18:16, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scalping in the Old World 

message: There was just an edit removing 2,900 k in text.  It's pretty hard to see what was removed and what was just moved around.  I did note the caption containing "Little Gassy Turtle" with the "Gassy" being added.  It looks to me like mere vandalism.  Please avoid anything like this and go through making one simple edit at a time.  Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Little Gassy Turtle" 

message: There is a photo with a caption stating that Little Turtle scalped the man in 1864. The source also says the same. What I don't understand is how Little Turtle could have done so considering he died in 1812. Wrong Little Turtle? Or wrong source? Of 19 (talk) 23:37, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Little turtle 

message: Perhaps the specific act of scalping was unique. Which I seriously doubt... Given the history of shrunken heads and all sorts of other weird shit. The act of paying for the body parts of humans was not. Leopold the second in Africa. people were abducted and had their hands chopped off just so the soldiers could get money. things like that should be included in statements like the one given as a citation. That is a very broad brush the citation is painting with. It honestly shouldn't be there because it contains no factual information It is simply someone else's opinion. I thought opinions weren't important here. We just talked about facts Sickboy254698 (talk) 23:07, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation 42 is not unique... Should have links 

message: I think it would be useful to also add the modern use of the word which refers to someone buying an item and selling it for a higher cost.
For example Graphics Cards are out of stock a lot and people buy them with programmed bots that automatically purchase it as fast as possible and then they re-sell for a higher cost. Happens with consoles, virtual reality headsets and more. MasterLands (talk) 13:33, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern use of the word Scalping / scalper 

message: Animals scalp people when people become their prey, and I don't know why, and I came to this article searching for just that. I don't know if it should be added, though. - Joaquin89uy (talk) 14:33, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about animals? 

message: The 1838 book “Life of Joseph Brant-Thayendanegea: including the border wars of the American Revolution” (https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/52072/pg52072-images.html#chxviii) refers to a letter describing an intercepted inventory of hundreds of patriot scalps. The letter claimed the scalps had been taken by Joseph Brant and his followers and were being sent to Col. Haldiman, Governor of Canada. 
“…extracted from Almon's American Remembrancer, (a work purporting to be an authentic collection of facts, published in London during the Revolutionary War,) for the year 1782, Vol. 14, page 185.  It was long supposed to be authentic, but has since been ascertained to be a publication from the pen of Doctor Franklin, written for political purposes?”
I haven’t been able to confirm the letter exists in Almon’s Remembrancer. I discovered that volume 14 was published in two parts. Unfortunately, the Internet archive has only part two:
https://archive.org/details/TheRemembrancerOrImpartialRepositoryOfPublicEventsvol.14/page/n5/mode/1up
I can find no mention of such a letter in that part two.
The fact that it was propaganda actually written by Benjamin Franklin also has to be verified. How do we know that the above wasn’t an elaborate propaganda ruse by the British to discredit Franklin? Such is war. It isn’t mentioned by Carl Berger in his 1976 book about the propaganda war “Broadsides & bayonets : the propaganda war of the American Revolution”. (https://archive.org/details/broadsidesbayone0000berg/mode/2up) Is it a hoax? Some basic research id needed. It can be asked whether this is the job at Wikipedia.
IF this is accurate information, it should be added to the article about Scalping, as well as the articles about Benjamin Franklin, Joseph Brant, and Butler’s Rangers. It might be relevant to other articles such as the Sullivan Expedition. There is an article about propaganda in general, but there isn’t an article about propaganda during the American Revolution.
This is a bigger job than I can handle. Someone must get out the roots of the story and revise several articles accordingly. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 08:58, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franklin’s propaganda letter