Talk:Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

message: and i quote:
" The meter of parts of the song is identical, and the tune similar...
    A very Merry Christmas
    And a Happy New Year
    Let's hope it's a good one
    Without any fear
...to the verse of a traditional folk tune called Stewball, sung by various artists over the years including Peter, Paul and Mary and Joan Baez. John Lennon's song is not just similar, but identical to the melody of Stewball. Extracted from the following article: [1] "Lennon's composition is almost exactly the same song as 'Stewball,' only with other words attached to its melody. It is almost a case of direct plagiarism." "
how delightfully uncyclopedic, don't you think?74.121.48.170 02:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it wasn't a terribly well written section. I've removed it, since it's taken from a rant, as far as I can see, written by one man. Iorek85 09:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stewball

message: I just added the single cover. there is a huge white boarder around the original, so it looks kind of small on the article page. if somebody wants to crop it they should, im just too lazy. Zzz345zzZ
: A huge white boarder? I know that guy. He never even pays his rent.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:C1E0:C310:A00A:FE96 (talk) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Single cover

message: I hope that putting the "Skewball" thing where it belongs (rather than among the covers) and giving it rather neutral language solves the issue with this. There are other sources that confirm the similarity, if that's an issue. (While the source brings up the word "plagiarism", "Skewball" is of course in the public domain, so Lennon was free to use its melody as he liked.)
I don't really know how the boxes at the bottom are handled, but it seems awfully strange to me to have a box for The Fray there and not one for Lennon (or, indeed, for Ono). 
Brettalan 05:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Box?

message: When I downloaded this song from iTunes, they also showed a "2003 Mix" by Lennon.  When I previewed the songs, the new mix has a much stronger bass line.  I guess it was from a remaster of "Some Time in New York."  Does this version warrant mention on the page?Doctor Quest (talk) 18:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 2003 Mix?

message: :Image:John&YokoWARisOver.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:John&YokoWARisOver.jpg

message: I'm sorry, but the following piece:
It is known as the "secret number one", as it reached the top of the UK Singles Chart for the week ending 3 January 1981, which was unpublished, as was usual for the Christmas week at that time. Thus, it is rarely, if ever, credited as a number one single. Record-Breakers and Trivia - everyHit.com
is completely wishful thinking on the behalf of the writer. Genesis used to dine out on a similar story about their Selling England By The Pound album.
The facts are that back in the old days of UK charts being done by shops posting back card returns to Music Week, there was no official chart between Xmas and New Year due to the postal services being on holiday (Music Week, like most British magazines, having a double issue for the Christmas and New Year period), and therefore no chart returns kept - this did not change until the days of Gallup's electronic tellers, so any claims of 'secret' UK Christmas No.1's should be taken with a bucket of salt Mark Boyle (talk) 14:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  UK Chart Position 

message: Is there any template to add a link to the lyrics in the Wikipedia article?. Is there any Lyrics WikiProject ?. --155.54.178.240 (talk) 11:58, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: We actually cannot add lyrics. Lyrics are generally copyrighted, so they can't be added in their entirety. We have to treat them like any other copyrighted work, meaning we can quote small sections if there is a legitimate reason, but we can't actually add the whole lyrics. For the same reasons, we generally shouldn't link to lyrics sites either; in any event, lyrics sites don't meet the requirements of WP:EL, so they shouldn't be linked. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:00, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lyrics 

message: Aside from the fact the two songs have similar titles, exactly what is notable about devoting a paragraph to the Phil Ochs song? Are they similar musically? 70.72.211.35 (talk) 00:03, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there is no similarity. Piriczki (talk) 00:11, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I see this has been re-introduced to the article with another reference to the Doors' "Unknown Soldier". This nonsense somehow ignores the fact that "the war is over" was a very common phrase long before any of these songs were written. Piriczki (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem rather quick to dismiss this as nonsense. The three sources I cited for that part (you may find them listed in the "references" section, and the corresponding page citations appear in the "notes" section) believed that the connection was significant – or at the very least plausible – enough to give it mention. Just because the phrase had been used, as you claim, before the late 1960s does not mean that it was any less inspirational or influential within that period. This is precisely the reason why I included it in the "background" section, because it provides a valid context for Lennon and Ono's billboard campaign and, by extension, the song itself. Far more important than than what I think, of course, is what the cited sources have to say about this topic. Accordingly, I believe that it is given appropriate weight, in keeping with Wikipedia policy. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 22:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The Temptations released a song called "I'm Losing You" back in the 60s.  McCartney wrote "Woman" under the pseudonym Webb in the 60s.  "Goodnight Vienna" was a song written in 1929.  I really don't think any of these comparisons matter, because we would have to add them to quite a few song pages. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Come again? The songs by Phil Ochs and The Doors are not at all random or irrelevant like the examples you mentioned. This is not original research based on post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning: the authors of the sources I cited each draw a connection from the Ochs and Doors songs – and related elements of the anti-war protests during that time – to Lennon and Ono's billboard campaign, which in turn was the basis of "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)". I definitely would not have included this if it failed the Wikipedia policy on verifiability, but when it appears in three separate sources, it starts to look like authoritative consensus. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 23:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, it's credited to John & Yoko, so it's not Lennon's "7th single release as an independent artist" Hotcop2 (talk) 23:51, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Ochs song

message: This section states the single "did not meet with much success in its 1971 U.S. single debut" and that in the years since it "has never entered the primary Billboard charts", however, this is contradicted by the actual chart history and methodology. The single was #3 on Billboard's Christmas Singles chart in 1971 and appeared on this chart every year that it was published in subsequent years (1972, 1983–85). Singles that appeared on the Christmas charts were excluded from the Hot 100 and as for the "years since" it is uncommon for old records to appear on current charts. Piriczki (talk) 15:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot quite see the contradiction. The passage you quoted reads "did not meet with much success" [emphasis mine]; I am not making the claim that "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)" was categorically unsuccessful in the U.S. If success is measured solely in terms of entering the primary Billboard charts – emphasis on primary – then, yes, the song was unsuccessful. But please note that this is not what is being claimed here. "In the years since, the original recording by Lennon and Ono has never entered the primary Billboard charts" is a factual, sourced statement, paired with factual, sourced statements about its appearance on the "Best Bets for Christmas" and "Christmas Hits" charts. Though they might be worthy considerations, an in-depth discussion of the whys and wherefores of Billboard chart history and methodology is somewhat outside the scope of this article. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 23:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is the record did not make the Hot 100 when it was released because it was not eligible for that chart then and it did not re-enter the Hot 100 in the years since simply because that rarely happens with any record. Including "factual, sourced" statements about the record not entering the Hot 100 without explaining why could easily lead the reader to an inaccurate conclusion about the record's chart performance. Piriczki (talk) 15:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not deliberately trying to be obtuse or play rhetorical games, but what particular conclusions do you think a reader might draw in the absence of that information? Why do you believe that stating the plain fact that the single has not entered the primary Billboard charts since its release, without providing additional details to explain the underlying history and mechanics of those charts, will so easily lead readers astray? In other words, what is the harm in not having it? Your desire for thoroughness is honorable and most definitely appreciated, but, realistically, it is impossible to completely preempt misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Readers bear as much of a responsibility to comprehend what they read as writers do in making it comprehensible. It is unreasonable to expect one or the other to do all – or even most – of the work: the burden falls on both sides of the writer–reader divide. That said, I am not entirely set against your position. The important thing is to work together to produce the best possible article. If you think that adding this information will bring the article closer to that goal, and the information is supported by and can be verified with reliable sources, then, by all means, do so. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 00:51, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chart performance 

message: Was there a TV commercial for travel to Jamaica, aired in 1981 sung to the tune of Happy Xmas? ("Make it Jamaica, your new island home") 69.228.171.21 (talk) 06:58, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes and no. Both songs are set to the tune of "Stewball", an old folk song which is public domain. "Come Back to Jamaica", "Stewball". Piriczki (talk) 17:36, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Piriczki is correct. When rewriting the article, I actually did investigate the link with the Jamaica tourism commercial, but was unable turn up any remotely reliable source to support the claim that it was set to the tune of "Happy Xmas", outside of various non-authoritative personal assertions. Without the backing of acceptable sources to lend this claim plausibility, it amounts to subjective interpretation and someone will likely tag and remove it again. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 23:09, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jamaica TV commercial 

message: In one of John Lennon's interviews, he talked about "Happy Xmas" saying "I always wanted to write something that would be a Christmas record that would last forever." This might be a useful addition to the article if anyone can find the source. I'm fairly certain it is from one the 1980 interviews but don't know which one. It also might be in audio only since I haven't been able to come up with any print sources that identify the original source. Piriczki (talk) 15:32, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: He wanted to write a Christmas song to "replace White Christmas" -- that's the quote, but I can't find it anywhere.  But I will lol. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:33, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Those are actually two different quotes. "Because I was sick of White Christmas" is from a 1998 article in Uncut magazine which contains a 1971 interview. Piriczki (talk) 12:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quote from 1980 interview? 

message: Neither this article nor the Lennon Legend: The Very Best of John Lennon (DVD) article says who made and who directed/produced (i.e. who told the makers what to make and/or had the final say).  I think they did an excellent job, and think they should be mentioned in this article.  Gronky (talk) 21:08, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who made the 2003 video? 

message: In Happy Xmas (War Is Over)#Personnel none of the musicians are credited on bass, but I can hear a bass line in the song. I can't imagine a full band without a bass line. I know one of the musicians had to have played bass.--Kevjgav (talk) 07:33, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's never been confirmed which of the rhythm guitarists at the original session played bass. Unfortunately. Personally – and I'm just being a know-it-all who swears blind he can spot a Klaus Voormann bassline every time – I'm convinced that the bass part is actually Klaus's, replacing the one done on the first day. His playing is so darn distinctive, just like Keltner's and Hopkins' … But to save anyone else having to say it: that claim is original research on my part, pure and simple! JG66 (talk) 14:26, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who played the bass? 

message: Are the words "Hare Krishna" part of the lyrics or not?  There are many web references that the Shaved Fish album version contains a reference to Hare Krishna and no other version does so.  True or false?  I would suggest some links to "sources" but who knows what is "fake news" nowadays????  — Preceding unsigned comment added by N0w8st8s (talk • contribs) 10:51, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No. On Shaved Fish, as this song ends, a bit of "Give Peace a Chance" is mixed in. "Hare Krishna" isn't part of this song, but "Give Peace a Chance". (And I think that's probably too trivial to mention in the article.) — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 12:45, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hare Krishna 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello. I was thinking about making just one chart with the overall peak of every chart like it's used in most songs pages, instead of having its performance on the charts every year. Should I do it?
ManuelButera (talk) 12:06, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: yes.  I just posed the same question over at Template talk:Single chart#Happy Xmas (War Is Over).  I should have checked here first! Hoof Hearted (talk) 18:36, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charts 

message: Lots of people covered this song, why is the Maroon 5 page on this page? It's already listed in the "other versions" section. Hotcop2 (talk) 21:35, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Wasn't it removed recently? "Other versions" should cover it, and should be enough. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:36, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Maroon 5 Page 

message: Hello, in the section "Certifications" sales in New Zealand are above 10,000 units but according to the source, https://nztop40.co.nz/chart/singles?chart=5254, see at the very bottom of the Web page, Gold singles indicate sales of 15,000 units and above (Platinum ≥ 30,000), at least since 2022. Perhaps the sales thresholds for singles have changed. Any info ? How is it possible to change 10,000 into 15,000 ? Thanks Carlo Colussi (talk) 11:48, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: With your (assumed) permission I copy this duscussion to Template talk:Certification Table Entry where it belongs. Interested parties are encouraged to join the discussion there. Muhandes (talk) 15:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

text: Discussion moved here. --Muhandes (talk) 16:26, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Zealand sales : Gold singles ≥ 15,000 units (and not ≥ 10,000 units)