Talk:Terri Schiavo case/Archive 42

message: Isn't "on weekends" the American usage? patsw 16:14, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't know that. I apologize. Anyway, I've changed it to "on Sundays", since that's what's in the transcript. I think "on" is definitely right for days of the week. Also, I originally left the spelling of "omlette" as it is in the transcript, because I thought it might be an American spelling, but I've looked it up in Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, and it seems to be "omelette", which is also the British spelling. So I've now changed it. Feel free to change back if I'm wrong about anything. I'm not supposed to be here at all – I'm just taking a tiny break from my studies. AnnH ♫ 16:45, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "at weekends" v. "on weekends" 

message: I decided to read through the article start to finish. I was sort of hoping I'd find some information that could easily be cut. I didn't. I did, however, run into a number of copyedit issues, verb tense things, use of Mr. Schiavo instead of Michael, and a couple of sentences that acted like speed bumps. I cleaned them up. FuelWagon 00:20, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I think "Schiavo" (period) should be used for Theresa Schiavo. If we use the last name with her, "Mr. Schiavo" actually makes sense in place of Michael. "What do the newspapers use?" Last names--typically (though they try not to) they privilege the male. John Smith is simply "Smith" and Mary Smith is "Mrs. Smith." In this case, the article is (can we agree on this ;) about Terri Schiavo. Thus she is "Schiavo" and her husband is "Mr. Schiavo." Obviously in particular contexts his first name makes more sense, but I would suggest this nomenclature in general. Marskell 00:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A couple months ago, there was a huge debate over whether to say "Terri" or "Schiavo" when speaking of "Terri Schiavo". Some thought "Schiavo" was impersonal, but eventually it was decided to be more encyclopedic.  For now, I just changed the two "Mr. Schiavo's" to "Michael" so the article would be consistent with the rest of the article. I'm not sure what the wikipedia guidelines are for this. I don't think it ever got mentioned on the Featured Article request, but then there were bigger issues. And I don't know if they would be "guidelines" or "policy". Personally I think it would be rather confusing if the article said "Schiavo" for Terri and "Mr. Schiavo" for Michael, but that's just me. FuelWagon 02:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the article should use first names when possible to avoid confusion. We're not trying to meet intangible guidelines; We are trying to make an article easily understood by the Joe Average citizen.--GordonWatts 03:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Think of the reader.  The usual encyclopedic style gets in the way of comprehending to whom a Schiavo reference refers.  Do articles on Bill and Hillary refer to the two of them uniformly as "Clinton" or do they use first names or other tags to disambiguate them? patsw 01:15, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Do articles on Bill and Hillary refer to the two of them uniformly as "Clinton" or do they use first names or other tags to disambiguate them?" They use first names. Whomever wrote those article was normal, and we should be too!--GordonWatts 05:48, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I regret citing the Clinton's as an example.  Hillary Clinton's use of Rodham or Rodham-Clinton. whatever her motivation, does not have a parallel in the Schiavo case.  I return to my main point and the point that others raised:  The usage of last names in encyclopedic but in the Schiavo article, to apply such a rule strictly, fills the article with difficulty for the reader in disambiguating to whom a Schiavo reference refers. patsw 13:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "The usage of last names in encyclopedic but in the Schiavo article..." Don't you mean "is" encyclopedic? "but in the Schiavo article, to apply such a rule strictly, fills the article with difficulty for the reader in disambiguating to whom a Schiavo reference refers." I can see Marskell's point, but I agree with Pat here: While we might get away with last names sometimes (usually, actually!), when there is ambiguity, I say use "Mr. Schiavo" or "Mrs. Schiavo" -just like when we're talking about them in a casual conversation -or, perhaps, like "Terri" and "Michael." That would work too. "Schiavo." Huh? "Which" Schiavo? PS: In 2050, and even now days in 2005, I think there are a lot of folk unfamiliar with this case, so disambiguation is my personal preference. That's my two cents' worth.--GordonWatts 03:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: I'm not saying never use a first name only that the default choice should be last name if there is no obvious confusion. Schiavo remained in a coma..., Schiavo was cremeated... etc. No one is going to suspect we're talking about her husband. Marskell 15:52, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Common sense applies:  An example of possible ambiguity Schiavo chose the inscription for the memorial.  We cannot presume that the reader is so familiar with the case that he or she is going to effortlessly disambiguate the references.  I'm thinking about the readability of this article to readers in 2050 not 2005. patsw 16:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

text: ...in the case of "Schiavo was cremated"... -- OK, but someday, Michael may be cremated, and then what will readers think? Will they know who is who then? Let's think of future generations.--GordonWatts 03:18, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Are we assuming future readers are going to drop 20 or 30 IQ points? I mean honestly, who the hell is going to read this article, arrive at the memorial and decide we're talking about her husband? Marskell 08:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Are we assuming future readers are going to drop 20 or 30 IQ points?" Au contraire, SEÑOR Marskell: Actually, that sort of thing happens quite frequently in history: Look at declining SAT scores, increasing crime and divorce, and consider that future generations might not only be less familiar with this topic, but also, they may jump into the article mid-stream, and the husband may someday be cremated. (Thus, a new reader might ask "which Schiavo is being discussed here?") which makes us bad scribes if we don't make the image plain for all to see. In fact, we don't have to look far for ignorant citizens: Recently, a news anchor in my area said that I didn't have legal standing to bring a habeas plea -in the face of recent court rulings affirming the "next friend" rights -and in the face of the court's refusal to dismiss my case for well over a year. Also, let's not forget that many people -even recently -thought Terri was hooked up to all kinds of life support (e.g., heart-lung machines, ventilators, etc.). What uninformed boobs! Can you say "stupid?" We must be good scribes and history recorders -good story tellers -since the story is true history: We must never forget.--GordonWatts 00:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

text: "A person who could possibly, looking at a page entitled Terri Schiavo, with a pic of her gravesite in the memorial, read that section as referring to her husband wouldn't have the intelligence to boot a search engine let alone make their way to a specific page." You are probably right most of the times, but every once in a while, anyone gets confused a little over one sentence or something. For example, some woman left a message on my answering machine for my mother (who lives with me and pop) regarding a cat which was treated at her vet clinic, and neither I nor my mother could fully understand all that the woman said. Sometimes the written word can be a tad confusing -probably less often, we hope.--GordonWatts 03:20, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: "Also, crime rates aren't increasing. Don't believe the hype ;)." You might be right, and, if so, i think people have always been somewhat dishonest when the going gets tough. We humans...--GordonWatts 03:20, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd support "Schiavo" for Terri Schiavo because it is encyclopedic, and then "Michael" for Michael Schiavo because it is clearly unambiguous. I wouldn't want to see the article go to "Terri Schiavo", because it is both unencyclopedic and cumbersome at times. The best we can hope for is to be as close to the rules for "encyclopedic", to be consistent, and to be unambiguous. "Schiavo" for Terri and "Michael" for her husband seems the best we can do. FuelWagon 02:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "I'd support "Schiavo" for Terri Schiavo because it is encyclopedic, and then "Michael" for Michael Schiavo because it is clearly unambiguous..."Schiavo" for Terri and "Michael" for her husband seems the best we can do." Well, if it's consistent, then it might be OK in this article..--GordonWatts 03:20, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that anytime you see the word "Schiavo" in the Terri Schiavo article is in reference to Terri. I had recently removed a couple of references to "Mr. Schiavo" and replaced them with "Michael" or "her husband" or some such thing. There shouldn't be any occurrences of "Mr. Schiavo" in the article.(of course, I'm saying this without doing a search, and will likely be proved wrong as soon as I hit "save page") FuelWagon 05:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Well, I was wrong at the time. there were 15 occurrences of "Mr. Schiavo". I have now changed the article so that all occurrences of "Mr. Schiavo" have been changed to "Michael". Will read it in the morning to see what it sounds like. FuelWagon 05:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: number of edits