Talk:Demographic history of Macedonia

message: This article claims that there was a region of Macedonia that was divided into different states. 
This is pure ignorance. First of all, the Ottomans did not have an administrative region named Macedonia. Moreover, the treaty of Bucharest does not mention the name Macedonia anywhere. Also, the FYR Macedonia (or Republic of Macedonia if you like) bore the name Vardarska Banovina until the 40s in the 20th century. If we are to refer to ancient times the fact that Philip II conquered Paeonia (modern day Republic of Macedonia) does not mean that Paeonia was named Macedonia. Alexander reached to India, why don't you include the whole world map as
region of Macedonia then? During Roman era Macedonia included parts of central Greece as well. Why don't you include the region of Thessaly in Macedonia as well?
Historically, the region of Macedonia was about what the Greek Macedonia is today.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geotol (talk • contribs) 20:06, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a separate article called Region of Macedonia. Check it, please. Yet the first sentence states: "Macedonia is a geographical and historical region of the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. Its boundaries have changed considerably over time; however, it came to be defined as the modern geographical region by the mid 19th century." The region is not related historically only with Alexander etc. The Roman province of Macedonia consisted of what is today Northern and Central Greece, much of the geographical area of the present-day Republic of Macedonia and southeast Albania. More, in the Byzantine Empire, a province under the name of Macedonia was placed in modern Thrace, etc. Please, get acquainted with the issue, before discussing it. Jingiby (talk) 06:02, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  When was this whole region named Macedonia? 

message: Dear Xelet (who art mirroring my name), you are requesting sources for the fact which is one of the few things that are not in dispute. There is a unanimous acceptance from all sources that Aegean/Greek Macedonia is 51% of the geographical region  . Of course, I just know that you are reverting for the sake of wikistalking, and you have being doing this to a number of users, I strongly believe that you will earn you a hard ban from all articles, not just Rajput. I hope this has been clear enough, Mr Singh. --Telex 10:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aegean/Greek Macedonia -> 51% 

message: Macedonia no longer poses a threat to Europe - Alexander has been dead for over 1000 years! Wake up Europe - look at Germany. The occupiers Bulgaria and Greece need to hand back Macedonian soil so that Macedonia can become complete again. Only then will the country be able to move forward. Until then, Greece and Bulgaria are simply going to have a humanitarian problem on their doorstep that won't go away - and could simply make matters worse (destabilise region).BluePanther (talk) 05:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Macedonian Reunification

message: The Real Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html
http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html
http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif
The Dardanians, Paeonians, and Illyrians are shown below, and those
are the ancient inhabitants of the Fyrom area....NOT ancient
Macedonians:
http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G01/A01/as0106.htm
http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa4.jpg
69.234.160.42 04:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   95% of Real Macedonia is in Greece 

message: For some reason, this article, and the other macedonian articles wrongly state that  the slavic invaders that occupied the macedonian region were 'expelled'. (likely because it is the same author)
This is simply wrong. If the slavs were expelled by the Byszantines, then there would be no Macedonians, Bulgrains and slavophone Greeks today ! Yes, many were expelled, and they were pacifieed, but MOST remained in the area, albeit under Byzantine rule 
You cannot just make huge errors like that. It falsifies history 
I corrected it Hxseek 09:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And your unsourced opinions have been reverted.  Please take the time while you're blocked to read WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and WP:3RR. Thanks. --Ronz 18:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error- sclavinas 

message: I would again like to highlight an error and inconsitenct in the above section. 
Pertaining to the slavs  
" They (the slavs) invaded Macedonia and reached as far south as Thessaly and the Peloponnese, settling in isolated regions that were called by the Byzantines Sclavinias, until they got gradually eliminated by the Byzantine Emperors." 
This must be a typing error, becuase it does not make sense. A great number of the sieging slavs were pacified and made to serve in the Byzantine army, but they were certainly not all expelled, as what the above paragraph makes out happened. Not only is this incorrect, but it is self contradictory- as the rest of the paragraph continues to discuss about how the slavs continued to raid with Bulgars, etc
The paragraph should be corrected. Eg the wiki article on history of Macedonia region is more correct:
"In the late 7th century Justinian II organized a massive expeditions against the Sklaviniai of the Greek peninsula, in which he reportedly captured over 110,000 Slavs and transferred them to Cappadocia. By the time of Constans II (who also organized campaigns against the Slavs), the significant number of the Slavs of Macedonia were captured and transferred to central Asia Minor where they were forced to recognize the authority of the Byzantine emperor and serve in its ranks. There are no Byzantine records of "Sklavines" after 836/837 as they were absorbed into the expanding Slavic First Bulgarian Empire. Slavic influence in the region strengthened along with the rise of this state, which incorporated parts of the region to its domain in 837 AD. "
Hxseek 22:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Medieval history error 

message: " During this period it has been claimed by Macedonian scolars that there exist large and oppressed ethnic Macedonian minorities in the region of Macedonia, located in neighboring states. Because of those claims, irredentist proposals are being made calling for the expansion of the borders of the Republic of Macedonia to encompass the territories allegedly populated with ethnic Macedonians. The population of the neighboring regions is presented as "subdued" to the propaganda of the governments of those neighbouring countries, and in need their incorporation into a United Macedonia."
This article should more explicitly state that the above idea represents the view of a FEW,  FRINGE macedonian ultra-nationalists. As it is above, it is as if the whole RoM is actively preparing for invasion ! THis smells of Greek scare-mongering as if to justofy their denial of Macedonian self-sovereignity —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 01:44, 4 August 2007
:Please back your assertions and follow WP:CIVIL and WP:TALK when doing so.  Thanks! --Ronz 03:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not if you don't mind being ignored and possibly blocked you don't. --Ronz 04:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: WP:CHILLOUT --Ronz 15:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fringe viewpoint? 

message: I've removed the following sentence from the section about the arrival of the Slavs:
:Many were eliminated by the Byzantine Emperors - as many as 200,000 were made to serve in the Byzantine army in Anatolia. 
This seems dubious to me - I don't doubt that Slavs were employed in the Byzantine armies; in fact, according to our existing Sclaveni article they were systematically employed as military settlers too. But the sentence insinuates that this employment was a means to exterminate them? This seems odd, without a source. I've replaced the sentence with something more neutral, for the time being. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problematic statement about Slavs in Byzantine armies 

message: The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Slavic.2C_Bulgar_and_Avar_invasions section, hilst certainly very informative, reads a little laboured. I think it tries too cram too much info about too many things, eg Aromanians, AVaras, Tirks, Slavs. I propose that we break it down into sub sections, whilst keeping the essence of what is said intact Hxseek 02:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed re-format 

message: Sorry but,this article is all but the text for somme encyclopedia.How is possible those shits to be placed in Wikipedia.How you can argue about history and demography of some nation?Did somebody here ask himself about origins or demography of nowadays Greeks or Bulgars.For example Greeeks are totaly artificial nation.In 1821 in Morea(Pelloponesus) 50% of population can't understand modern greek language.About Bulgarian-this term in 19 centurie mean ortodox slavic christian in Balkans.See the census from 1911 in Ottoman empire:in villaet of Kosovo-there is no Serbs but 500.000 Bulgarians.This article is pure shauvinistic propaganda against Macedonian people and I think if wikipedia want to be serious encyclopedia,then articles like this are not needed.This is pure political shauvinistic propaganda against one whole people.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.185.179 (talk) 14:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is about the Region, NOT the republic of Macedonia. Where are the stats? Kosovo was not the modern Kosovo . Скопие Skopie (Ottoman/Albanian Ushkub) was the provincial capital of Kosovo vilayet. Maqedan (talk) 07:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  You are all insane 

message: Administrator, I have changed "Slav Macedonian" into "Ethnic Macedonian" since we do not identify as "Slav Macedonian." Mactruth (talk) 19:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Slav" changed to "Ethnic" 

message: I see that at least six of the maps appearing on this page are identical to, and possibly taken from, an atlas published in Berlin in 1917, with a preface by Rizoff. Indeed, this atlas is cited as the article's reference 5.
I have recently scanned the atlas, and made it available on the web at http://www.maproom.org/00/48/index.php. The ethnographical maps, copied from various sources, plates numbers 15-30, are of particular relevance to this article.
If anyone would like to add a link to that page, please do so. I cannot do so myself because it would break Wikipedia's guidelines. Maproom (talk) 21:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, if anyone wants an image of any of the plates in that atlas, I can upload it at a resolution suitable for Wikipedia. Maproom (talk) 10:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 1917 Rizoff Atlas

message: I've seen you removed the Stanford's 1878 Ethnic composition map of the Balkans from the article. This map is of historical significance since upon that map the Congress of Berlin created Bulgaria as a state in 1878 and shaped her borders. I also noticed that you also removed it from any other article of wikipedia including the very article of the Berlin's Congress by saying that it is wrong. Wikipedia is not judging an historical document as it is a 1878 map as right or wrong, especially a map upon a treaty was determined. WP works with references, documents and facts, leaving the reader to judge for himself what is right and what is wrong. So if you have censuses that denying what the map is picturing in 1878, you have to put them into the articles, with the necessary references. Regards, --Factuarius (talk) 03:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Stanford's 1878 Ethnological map

message: thumb|left|Pirin Macedonia
The shown on the right map of Pirin Macedonia presently used in the article is misleading, and I am removing it.
The errors in that region's borders that should be fixed are explained in detail in the talk page . Apcbg (talk) 17:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I have made the changes you requested. For reasons I don't understand, it takes some time for an edit to an image to propagate back to wikipedia pages and become effective. I am a bit hesitant about making this particular edit, it seems harmless enough, but you will be aware from some of the discussions above that maps of the Balkans can arouse strong feelings, and I don't want to offend anyone when I know nothing about the significance of the changes I am making. By the way - to indent a piece of talk like this, colons ":" work well. Maproom (talk) 21:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Maproom!  The corrected map is now back in the article; as for the colons, I've been using them for years now :-) but they seem not to work next to an image. Apcbg (talk) 04:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading map 

message: I happened to notice the removal of the  tag. This one actually makes sense because there are a several consecutive sections in this article that have either no or very few references. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I was the one that removed it. I undid all edits from that anon since he was just spamming tags all over a ton of articles. You're welcome to add it again. --Laveol T 12:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  refimprove tag 

message: I think you should split this article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.130.111 (talk) 14:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is too long 

message: After seeing the Controversy Article about Linguists and Ethnicity in Moldova, and the article about Moldovanism, I think it is time to create such articles about the ethnic controversy in Macedonia and the controversies about Macedonism.  When looking at both regions--Bessarabia and Macedonia, well the portion east of the Struma river, south of the Voras Mountains and west of the upper Polog valley, in short the majority Slavic inhabited area, one has a remarkable similarity in history.  Both groups, the Bulgarians of Macedonia and Romanians of Bessarabia, show a history of being identified as Bulgarians and Romanians by virtually the entirety of non-interested nations up until the Balkan Wars (when for example in 1910 Russia stated that it had no Romanian minority).  With regard to Serbian interest in the Region, Britannica's 11th edition says it best:
"The aims of the Servians, whose active interference in Macedonia is of comparatively recent date, have not been realized. Previously to 1878 the hopes of the Servians were centered on Bosnia, Herzegovina and the vilayet of Kossovo; but when the Berlin Treaty assigned Bosnia and Herzegovina to Austria, the national aspirations were directed to Macedonia, the Slavonic population of which was declared to be Servian." (volume 17, pp 219)
Both groups went through assimilation campaigns--the Serbianization and Hellinization of 1913-1915 and 1919-1941, just as one had the Russification of Bessarabia from 1812-1918, as well as the puppet MASSR (1924-1940) and attempts by the USSR to spread 'Moldovism' into Bessarabia from 1918-1940.  One then had the full-scale Communist assaults and brainwashing campaigns of 1944-1989/91 which codified new languages, alterations and outright falsifications of history, both local and everything involving the peoples of the regions as a whole, and in both cases, the majority of this being imposed upon the native population by foreigners--i.e., Serbs and Croats in Yugoslavia, and Russians and Ukrainians in the USSR, as opposed to local Bulgarians and Romanians.  There was also the quashing of resistance to these alterations by the native population in both Bessarabia/Moldova and Vardar Macedonia, while in Aegean Macedonia, especially the eastern part, there was large-scale fight and smaller population exchanges, somewhat similar to what happened to the Romanians in North Bukovina when around 28% of them were killed or deported following the Soviet invasion of 1940 (a decline of 75,752 between 1930 and 1959, out of a total of around 227,200 in 1930, with remaining in 1959, although it appears to be 1/3 deported or killed, one had 24 years of peace and population growth--10 from 1930-1940 and the other 14 from 1945-1959 for the native figure to increase), and restoration of Soviet control in 1944, although for census data, the Romanians in Transcarpahia and North Bukovina (though not north Bessarabia) were continually refereed to Romanians from 1959-1989 (100,863 in 1959, 112,141 in 1970, 121,795 in 1979 and 134,825 in 1989), as well as 146,707 in 2001, though the Bulgarians of Greece were simply refereed to 'Slavaphones'.
Then one has what can only be considered practical reasons behind such changes.  Given the long borders and long history, as well as the longstanding common identity on both sides of the border for both groups, the brainwashing and historical falsifications can be interpenetrated as a safety mechanism to prevent separatist tenancies and a lack of loyalty to the new regimes, as well as a form of justification by those regimes on why they should hold the territories in question.
In short, the initial connection with rival, if not fringe claims by interested neighbors, the forced assimilation prior to WWII and the strong connection with Communism in the 'development' of these two 'ethnicities', justify the need for two articles dealing with the Madedonia issues--the controversy around 'Slavic Macedonians' and Macedonism, ideally "Controversy over linguistic and ethnic identity in the Republic of Macedonia" and "Macedonism" Prussia1231 (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Articles needed for "Ethnic Controversy in Macedonia" and "Macedonism" 

message: The Romanian propaganda section is full of WP:POV, dubious and unsourced statements, of no encyclopedic value. Someone should source those assertions and they should be removed. --Codrin.B (talk) 12:11, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanian propaganda 

message: This article does not adequately clarify the area covered. In fact, this article seems to cover the region defined in another Wikipedia article, namely in Macedonia (region). This area was loosely established in the late 19th century and the introduction of this article (Demographic history of Macedonia) explains that, "This article is about the region spanning several countries in southeastern Europe". Therefor, I believe this gives us a queue to add after it the slightly edited for purpose introduction of the article Macedonia (region), namely:
*Macedonia is a geographical region in southeastern Europe. Its boundaries have changed considerably over time, but nowadays the region is considered to include parts of five Balkan countries: Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia (including the Gora region in Kosovo). 
So the new introduction might be something like: 
* This article is about the region of Macedonia spanning several countries in southeastern Europe. It is a geographical region in southeastern Europe. Its boundaries have changed considerably over time, but nowadays the region is considered to include parts of five Balkan countries: Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia (including the Gora region in Kosovo). 
Politis (talk) 23:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. The article is about the demographic (not the political) history of a region. Right at the top of the article, there is a map which makes it clear what region. Which nations currently rule parts of the region is irrelevant to this article - though it can be deduced from the national frontiers shown on that map. Maproom (talk) 01:07, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification of geographical area covered by this article

message: A friend pointed out there are no references in the main section of Statistical Data. Where did they go? Can anyone fix it?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.100.199 (talk) 12:08, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  No References in Statistical Data 

message: How could be independent point of view that says that the macedonian populationhad no ethnicity? This is absurde, this is imposible....... over 1.2 milion people without ethnicity in the begining of the 20 century?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.139.247 (talk) 17:23, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Independent point of view? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Why does the history section skip from Alexander to Rome?  Even if the internal demographics did not change substantially during the intervening period, the borders surely did.  At one point Cassander's "Macedonia" included almost all of what is now mainland Greece (except for a small portion controlled by Epirus, along with modern Albania).  Admittedly, it was the first of the major Greek kingdoms to fall to Rome, but that did not happen at Alexander's death.  This seems like it warrants at least a sentence.  As it stands, the article sort of implies that when Alexander died, Rome took over, which is inaccurate.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.105.96.42 (talk) 02:39, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diadochi Period? 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Eastern Question which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 18:33, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress