Talk:Giovanni Luppis/Archive 1

message: A formal Request for Mediation related to this article</br> was filed with the Mediation Committee on 06:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mediation 

message: Useless question, good for stupid nationalists.
Lupis was from Fiume/Rijeka, and he served with loyality in the Austrian Navy (so it was an austrian soldier). His origins were a mix of italian and croatian. He studied in Italian language (in Fiume Gymnasium and in Venice's Academy). Fiume/Rijeka was multiethnic city. The urban people was moslty italian, but the countryside was croatian. It belongs to Hungary, but it was a base or the Austrian Navy.
The people spoke Italian,  Croatian, German and Hungarian. Those languages were also used in the schools and in the press. Lupis was from FIUME, not from Italy of Croatia or Austria.--Giovanni Giove 10:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The inserted references say he was born in Fiume. The history of the family, says that the family moved to Fiume in XVII century and that, there, they belonged two palaces.
Just have a look!
Greetings.
--Giovanni Giove 09:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Austrian, croatian or Italian? 

message: Therefore, the claim that  Giovanni Biagio Luppis von Rammer is (in Croatia known as Ivan Blaž Lupis-Vukić) is utter nonsense.--GiorgioOrsini 15:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal names are not translatable into other languages 

message: Quote from [] page; "Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language" Rijeka is known in English language as Rijeka, not Fiume:) And that is also its historical name (on Croatian language). 
Also, writing with Pelješac which says now in Croatia, is somewhat offensive to Croats, because Pelješac was populated by Croats a long time ago, and that reference indicates temporarity.
Do you have some census which could prove that Rijeka had ethnic Italian majority? If not I suggest that you put " had an large number of ethnic italianians in it" phrase.
|Ceha 19:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just look for the Austrian census, and look for an Austro Hungarian map. You will find 1) Fiume was an italian city 2) the official language was Italian (and not Croat), all the names of the east Adratic coast were  reported in Italian. Sabbioncello was the official name of the peninsula till 1918.--Giovanni Giove 13:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of Rijeka

message: This is a detailed explanation why I will remove or change certain portions of the article:
* The Lupis family (Site about the noble family of Giovanni Luppis) - I'll remove this because the site doesn't mention Giovanni Lupis. Saying that it's his family is pure conjecture, and therefore original research.
* He was ethnically Italian - No proof (see my arguments below).
* into a local aristocratic family with Ragusan and Italian (Apulian) roots; Luppis was descended from a branch of the Italian noble family of Lupis, that moved to Dalmatia from Giovinazzo, Apulia. This branch moved first to Ragusa (Dubrovnik) and then to the Ragusan peninsula of Sabbioncello (today Pelješac in Croatia), where Slavicized the name in Vuk or Vukašinovic (another adaptation of lupus, "wolf"). When, in XVII century, one of his ancestors had moved to Fiume, that in that time had a mostly Italian urban population, he Italianized again his name in Luppis. - This has been taken from this site:  (NOTE: Copy this link and then change groteria into grotteria. This is necessary because the correct site name is on Wikipedia's black list, which makes it a little suspicious, doesn't it? But let's suppose the source is correct.) Firstly, it can't be said his family has Ragusan and Italian roots if they came from Italy several centuries before he was born. It would be like saying for any person from North Italy that it has Germanic roots because Langobards moved to Italy in the Middle Ages. It's preposterous. "Roots" can extend to one generation, two at most; if you go further in the past, there's no stopping it. Then we all have African roots. Secondly, if they changed their last name from Lupis to Vukašinović and then back to Lupis, what does it mean? That they were Italians, then Croatians, then again Italians? What I mean is simply that names don't prove a thing. There's no evidence that he was either Italian or Croatian. The only thing we know with certainty is that he was an Austrian subject. I will include your text in a chapter called Origins, but as I explained, it cannot be taken as a basis for any ethnic claims.
* Even if Luppis was ethnic Italian, in Croatia he is often presented as the "Croatian inventor" Ivan Blaž Lupis Vukić (a possible translation of Giovanni Biagio Luppis). Despite those claims, the Croatian name is not historically documented.; Giovanni Luppis was ethnical Italian, even if he had the Austria's citizenship. Similar disputes between Italy and Croatia are common, because the east Adriatic coast was an area of mixed culture. - All this is based on the pure conjecture which I refuted in the previous point. Therefore, it must be removed.
* I will add Ivan Lupis because it is the most common name used today. Check Google if you don't believe me. It agrees with Wikipedia's pragmatic principle of names.
* and was an Italian ethnic enclave (it had large Italian majority) - This is simply not true. Rijeka had a large Croatian majority throughout its history. It's true that the educated citizens were often Italians or Italianated Croats, but they were always just a small elite.
Well, these are my reasons. I will edit the text accordingly. I will NOT just revert your edits. I admit I was a bit rash when I removed the part about origins and I will return it in an appropriate form. I kindly ask you to refrain from reverting. That won't help anyone. So, please discuss the above matters with me before editing. --Zmaj 16:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Explanation of my edits

message: Stop with the fascism! It's Rijeka, not Fiume!!! It is true that the city was gaining more and more italian pop. until it had italian majority sometime before 1918. But saing that the city's name was Fiume is stupid and historicly untrue. And that funny name for Pelješac... it's probably imagined. It was Pelješac, and it was all along pelješac. Even if it was calle Sabo-whatever italian ultranacionalists lost elections in Dalmatia way before 1918...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emoutofthevee (talk • contribs) 21:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antifascism 

message: First of all, during Austro-Hungarian empire, Rijeka's name was Rijeka, not Fiume.
That's the historical fact. First official use of name Fiume was 1n 1920 with creation of so called "Free State of Fiume".
You also said:
"It was from Fiume/Rijeka that belong to italian and croatian culture, in the same time and it's not correct to apply the PRESENT national conditions to the past."
Another false argument is that Rijeka's urban residents where Italians while Croats lived in surrounding villages. Peasants do not attend theater that much and you have Croatian National Theater built in 1765. Furthermore, according to Austro-Hungarian census, year 1851. of 12.272 inhabitants, there are 11.581 Croats and 691 Italians while number of other nationalities is negligible.
So, Ivan Lupis Vukić was Croat. That's a fact. Yes he received education in Italy, as well as I have in England. However that does not make me English.
Furthermore you are saying that ITALIAN families Croatized surnames and you state examples like this:
Percovich - Perković  - and what's supposed to be original Italian name?
Cosulich - Kosulić - same thing, what's original Italian name?
You also say: "Anyway there is not the historic evidence that Lupis was aimed by the purpose to do something "against italians"."
He was AustroHungarian soldier. Who was main (and only) enemy of our country's (Austro-Hungarian empire at the time) navy? Japan maybe?
Furthermore, he took part in war against Italy, so he definitely wasn't what you would call "Italian patriot".
I don't really understand that ultra nationalist urge to claim other peoples territories, history and persons.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MahnitiTapir (talk • contribs) 16:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various... 

message: :Someone it's tryng to erase the family background and history of Giovanni Luppis. His family name has been Luppis or Lupis: please check references, on web too. Following some samples:
* Curiosità - Lo sapevate che… - Sulla Croazia : "il siluro “torpedo”, nella sua concezione moderna, fu inventato nel 1860 da Ivan Lupis-Lukić, già ufficiale in pensione della Marina da guerra dell’Impero ..."
* znanost  : "Ivan Lupis-Vukić, umirovljeni mornarički inženjer, konstruirao je prototip za prvi torpedo. Nacrt je predstavljen caru Franji Josipu u Rijeci 1860. ..."
* Ivan Vukić - Wikipedija : "Giovanni Biagio Luppis poznatiji kao Ivan Lupis (Rijeka, 28. siječnja 1814. - Torriggia, 11. siječnja 1875.), pomorski časnik Austro-ugarske Mornarice rodom ..."
* Ivan Lupis Vukic, inventor of torpedo "photo of Ivan Lupis Vukic, inventor of torpedo. ... Ivan Lupis Vukic, inventor of torpedo. Edit Title. Embed Image:. Image Details ..."
* (E) 140 years since the construction of torpedo by Ivan Lupis Vukic - : "140 years since the construction of torpedo by Ivan Lupis Vukic."
And so...--D'Agrò (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Luppis not Lupis, Lupis is a wrong trascrizion. See Italian Page and external link. --Hellis (talk) 06:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean "transcription"? That it's a totally wrong assertion. On the contrary, it is LuPPis the wrong transcription of the "slavichized"  surname "Vukic/Vukassinovich" from the original "de Lupis or Lupis". As stated in this wiki page too from many years, before someone (some SP of this "Hellis"?) erased it: "Luppis is descended from a branch of the Italian noble family of Lupis, that moved to Dalmatia from Giovinazzo, Apulia. This branch moved first to Ragusa (Dubrovnik) and then to the Ragusan peninsula of Sabbioncello (today Pelješac in Croatia), where Slavicized the name in Vuk or Vukašinovic (another adaptation of lupus, "wolf"). When, in XVII century, one of his ancestors had moved to Fiume, that in that time had a mostly Italian urban population, he Italianized again his name in Luppis" Evidences of this can be found in several books, but the one that is definitive is that on the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" (the "Italian Golden Book of the Nobles Families"), where the chapter dedicated to the noble family of Giovanni Luppis von Rammer it is clearly stated as "LUPIS - LUPPIS" (see here the whole scanned section and pay attention to the first page of the section here). On the last page of the section can see the Dalmatian branch here where can found the part dedicated to Giovanni Luppis. Please, don't try to ignore evidences and stop reverting. Thanks --D'Agrò (talk) 12:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, if you persist in those immotivate revertions, you'll be reported for violation of the three-revert rule--D'Agrò (talk) 13:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The family Lupis was deleted from Italian Wikipedia for Legal threats and Spam. His descendant was banned and Lupis.it is not a reliable site. www.genmarenostrum.com is chaired by Lupis.... --Hellis (talk) 14:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Really? On It-Wiki the whole descendants of a family can be banned :=)? What is this: some kind of internet-version of a Final Solution?
Anyway, your assertions doesn't means nothing. Here has been produced a printed references. I just produced them from the first link I found after a research on web, where there are available and scanned. Printed references, coming from an high reputed source like the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana", cannot be ignored. I reported you for 3RR violation. If you still revert, you will also be reported for vandalisms and to have promoted a completly POV edit war--D'Agrò (talk) 15:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Erasing the History?

message: I reported back the chapter regarding the family origins of Giovanni Luppis, including the links to the printed references from Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana already stated, to provide available and new sources for them. I'm not inserted back back as a chapter like did before, because IMHO should be better to have them in a note. --D'Agrò (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Giovani Luppis family origins

message: Even Croat sources (the serious ones) state that the proper name was Giovanni Luppis. See this1st international Conference on the occasion of 150th anniversary of torpedo factory in Rijeka and preservation of industrial heritage: it is no possible to find "Ivan Vukic". Some Croatian sources, for some reasons, like to translate the name into Croatian language, this is not a good reason to give it the same relevance of the original name (this should be a so called "POV")--217.201.175.16 (talk) 15:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Name