Talk:Bronc riding

message: Please please please someone update this page! Horses are not prey animals. Broncs are bred for this purpose, not failed work animals. The flank strap is no where near the animal's genitals. When a horse and rider rear up like that, it's more closely compared to a "wheelie" on a motorcycle; control and freedom and excitment, not chaos or an attempt to throw the rider! Bucking broncs don't rear like that, excited horse and riders do.
Shouldn't there be something in here about what makes the horse buck?  Isn't there a band around the genitals or something like that?  Ortolan88
This page has the same content as Bareback bronc. Mcpusc 01:46, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The commentators at the 2005 Wrangler National Rodeo Finals seemed to imply that broncos are specifically bred and trained for this purpose, not that they are failed riding horses...?12.174.149.185 17:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  broncos 

message: there is almost nothing about animal abuse and what is there is dismissed
Dog jumper idiot100 20:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for trying to help, but your edits did not 'fix' this article; instead, they added a strong bias by using emotionally loaded words and descriptions instead of neutral language.  I've reverted your changes. -FisherQueen (Talk) 20:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, that's right, the changes you added made the article take a more biased point of view, which is why they're reverted.  We all have strong opinions, but articles themselves need to be neutral. -FisherQueen (Talk) 00:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I strongly disagree with you, but will allow someone else to make the change this time, so that you will not think that I am just an individual with a vendetta against your point of view. -FisherQueen (Talk) 12:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  biased 

message: These two sections are in need of references to support many claims made in them. (See Wikipedia:Citing sources if you need more information about citing references.) 
The flank strap does not force a horse to buck, it is there to encourage the horse to kick up! Usually they are fleece lined and are very unlikely to rub a horse for the time they are used, as they are the first part to be released.
Cgoodwin (talk) 05:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''The Flank Strap''' and '''Abuse Claims''' sections 

message: Deleted entire section. A biased, completely "pro-rodeo" argument.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by HatAct (talk • contribs) 14:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: While the article is far from "pro" rodeo, as it mentions and explains the controversy, even if you are correct, blanking an entire section and replacing it with an entirely pro-PETA argument is equally a violation of WP:NPOV.  The fair resolution is to give equal time to each viewpoint, wording it with NPOV language. There is room to discuss both sides in a fair way, but it was probably a month ago the "truly" pro rodeo crowd went in and deleted any reference to animal cruelty, and started ranting about the animal rights activists and "bunny huggers."  So, everyone has hot emotions on the topic, and it is no fun to have an article locked down due to an edit war, so please do not delete material.  If you want to add, with proper sources, that is fine, but please read WP:NOT first.  Montanabw(talk) 20:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, but PETA also has much to gain by promoting their POV.  Just because the pro rodeo position is presented does not make the article inherently pro rodeo, particularly when considerable space is devoted to abuse controversies as well.  I am not personally involved in the rodeo industry and as an editor I am attempting to keep these articles balanced.  Please also note: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Extremist_sources  PETA is a source as surely POV as the rodeo industry and with as much to gain (in memberships and donations) as the rodeo industry.  I am serious when I say that the balance between the two viewpoints is a tricky one to maintain here.  I urge you to stop blanking viewpoints you do not agree with and please reread WP:SOAP and WP:VERIFIABILITY.  For that matter, also remember No Personal Attacks. Montanabw(talk) 05:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead is something of a summary of the entire article. To mention the flank strap controversy in the lead is appropriate. No problem. Please, don't delete contributions that fly in the face of the pro rodeo stance. I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Wiki articles attempt to present "both sides of the story" -- controversies, opposing views, etc. Please stop deleting material with documentation and citations that do not support the pro-rodeo stance. Balance such material with documented and cited pro-rodeo contributions rather than undocumented, uncited factual-sounding statements. Perhaps you are very busy and cannot document or cite all of your contributions. Wouldn't it be wiser to refrain from making contributions until you can support them with documentation and citations? Just a thought. HatAct (talk) 06:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Myths and reality section 

message: Please refrain from reverting my edits.  I am making a good faith attempt to merge both viewpoints in a balanced way.  Montanabw(talk) 06:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is it OK for you to revert my edits but it's not OK for me to revert yours? I don't understand. I'm making a good faith effort to edit this article in a balanced manner only to find my contributions reworded to tip the scales ever-so-slightly in favor of the gung ho "pro-rodeo" stance. For example, I cited a veterinarian by name, etc. and her testimony only to find it reduced to "a spokesman for animal rights". What gives? Just wondering! HatAct (talk) 09:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abuse issue 

message: While I appreciate your hint about Extremist Groups, it would be difficult to tar PETA with such a label. Essentially, PETA and other animal advocacy groups speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. I want to be fair but, based on a thorough reading of your resume page, it seems to me you approach this page with a bias. The article is being swayed to the "pro-rodeo" position with unsourced, undocumented, and uncited claims, statements, and misinformation. If you don't have the time to source and reference your contributions, wouldn't it be wise to refrain from contributing until you can? Just a thought! No hard feelings! HatAct (talk) 07:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extremist Groups

message: Please note that I am trying to make a serious effort to provide balance here.  Please remember to read Assume Good Faith and remember that wikipedia guidelines do strongly urge people to begin with the notion that the other party is well-intentioned.  Montanabw(talk) 08:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to do something neat for this article, you could explain to Wikiusers exactly HOW a flank strap causes a top notch bucking horse to kick out straighter and higher. If some horses are specifically bred to buck and want to buck, then why are flank straps and spurs apparently necessary? Wouldn't the scent of fresh carrots do the same? Please explain. HatAct (talk) 08:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shooting for a truce here 

message: You need to understand that WIkipedia is not a soapbox for you to keep pushing a single viewpoint to the extent that it dominates the article.  There is no need to cite long passages from various sources, particularly when all they really do is expose the lack of understanding of the various speakers.  You are convinced that rodeos are cruel, but you fail to understand that there is in fact another viewpoint here, and that  much of the material cited by the extremist groups you mention (and PETA is on the fringe) report isolated incidents in the thousands and thousands of rodeos held each year.  I think it is time to take this issue to arbitration or something because you just do not understand that I am desperately trying to keep this article balanced and NPOV in tone.   Montanabw(talk) 07:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "There is no need to cite long passages from various sources, particularly when all they really do is expose the lack of understanding of the various speakers." Are you referring here to Peggy W. Larson, large animal veterinarian, medical researcher, prosecutor, and former bareback bronc rider with "lack of understanding" regarding cruely to animals in rodeo? So why do you think she lacks understanding? Because she doesn't agree with your position? Just wondering. When I last accessed this article, it was a nicely balanced article with citations and documentation adequately presenting both sides of the issues. The article has been re-edited with inadequate (or no) citations and documentation and colored with POV to tip the balance to the "Yee Haw! Let's Go Rodeo!" camp. The article is locked. I would expect some people are very happy. No further comment. HatAct (talk) 08:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough 

message: :I was the one who created a proposed red link for you to allow easy creation of a new article that explores this controversy, and I think it is a good solution to this situation because you can use it to fully explain the positions of the various groups (ASPCA has a different position from PETA and both are different from AHA, for example).  It would be interesting.  You haven't been a wikipedian very long and maybe didn't know how to create a new article.  It was an attempt to help.
:I also wish to make it clear that I have no "proprietary" interest in any of the rodeo article beyond a fondness for the wikipedia model and a desire to see production of a balanced article that respects the guidelines of wikipedia that I have repeatedly emphasized, including [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not a soapbox], Neutral point of view and respect for the Manual of style.  I am involved with these particular articles because I have a bit of knowledge on the topic, combined with some wordsmithing ability to smooth out the edits written by people with a vast amount of knowledge but iffy writing skills.   What I also am is tired of rewriting and rewording and spending hours every day trying to keep this article encyclopedic in tone and in accordance with wikipedia's core principles.  I want to point out that the "animal cruelty" section has been expanded a great deal since this discussion began, many of the statements in there are better sourced than they were, and in short, there does exist a balance to this article that is probably better than it was.   "Compromise" means that everyone gets some of what they want but probably not everything they want.  I think the article as it sits is reasonably balanced between the two viewpoints, though there is always room for improvement. Montanabw(talk) 01:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I consider the "yee-haw" comment to be a Personal attack.  You are making a stereotyped assumption about me based on where I live.   I am also not going to bother responding to your arguments point by point as we've been over this before.  You have a point of view, I have a point of view, and truly "pro-rodeo" advocates have a point of view.  The trick is balancing these points of view so that all sides have their views represented accurately, but without dominating the entire article with fringe theories.  (And PETA is, by most measurements, a fringe group.)  I consider myself a person of sufficient actual knowledge to be neutral, and I guarantee you that a month from now, some person with a truly pro-rodeo viewpoint will come in here and want to delete everything you inserted.  All I am doing is toning things down. And you can discuss the steer wrestling issue on the steer wrestling page.  Montanabw(talk) 00:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Settling the discussion?

message: It appears to me that you have a "proprietary" interest in the article. I was willing to believe "good faith" editing on your part, but as work progressed on the animal abuse section, it became more and more clear to me that you have a proprietary interst in the article and you are not going to let any suggestion that rodeo abuses animals to stand. As soon as an edit is made to the article, you fly in to "skew" it to support your "Yee Haw! Let's Go Rodeo!" Montana horseperson stance. Here's an especially "sneaky" example your "pro-rodeo" "editing":
I quoted PETA: "During Rodeo Houston, a bull suffered from a broken neck for a full 15 minutes before he was euthanized following a steer-wrestling competition, which was described by a local newspaper as an event in which "cowboys violently twist the heads of steers weighing about 500 pounds to bring them to the ground." Nothing here but the truth. The quote was documented and sourced. 
You skewed the quote to read: "a bull [sic] with a broken neck...following a steer-wrestling competition"[6][7]
You decided portions of the original quote should be deleted because they don't support your "Yee Haw!" position about rodeo. The Wikireader is left believing, perhaps, the animal was treated for his injury and then headed back to the ranch to frolic in clover filled pastures -- not killed. That doesn't look good for rodeo, does it? Grieviously injuring an animal at a public entertainment then killing the animal. Best to skew the quote to make rodeo look good, right? This is what I mean by your snake-like skewing of truthful, sourced material that doesn't toe the line with your "Cowboys are the Greatest! Yee Haw! Let's Go Rodeo!" Montana horseperson editorial position.
Secondly, you continually insist upon referencing a "survey" made in 1994 (duh!) regarding animal abuse in rodeo. You've stuck the stuff in every rodeo article at Wiki. While statistics always impress people, the "survey" is too old to be of any worth, and you do nothing for Wikipedia's credibility in citing such dated material. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to "pull a fast one" on unsuspecting Wikireaders. Your source for the "survey" is a sidebar in a biased, blog-type "Cowboys are the Greatest! Yee Haw! Let's Go Rodeo!" website. You should be citing the original "survey" -- not an unsourced sidebar at a "Yee Haw!" site. 
The entire animal abuse section from Steer Wrestling ....
--------------
Like all other rodeo events, steer wrestling is under fire by animal rights advocates. Modern rodeos in the United States are closely regulated and have been responsive to accusations of animal cruelty.[4] In 1994, a survey of 28 sanctioned rodeos was conducted by on-site independent veterinarians. Reviewing 33,991 animal runs, the injury rate was documented at .00047 percent, or less than five-hundredths of one percent.[5]
However, groups such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) notes incidents of "a bull [sic] with a broken neck...following a steer-wrestling competition"[6][7] Other organizations note that steer wrestling is not an event linked directly to actual ranching practices, stating, "It is an abusive event developed simply to amuse"[8] According to the ASPCA, practice sessions are often the scene of more severe abuses than competitions.[9]
----------------
In the second sentence "Modern rodeos in the United States etc.", it should be noted that rodeo is industry regulated. The Wikireader is left thinking rodeo is "regulated" by non-biased, "government inspectors" or some such people. It's not. Rodeo is "regulated" by rodeo. Ordinary ticket-buying, rodeo attendees are forbidden from videotaping or photographing animals dying and dead in the arena. I don't dare make the note because I know it will be "skewed" by those with a "proprietary" interest in the article and don't want contributions from "non-proprietors". I know that anyone contributing to any article about rodeo has to pass your inspection as self-appointed "guardian" of all Wiki articles about rodeo. You have a "proprietary" interest in the articles about rodeo and have written (in your own way now and then about spending hours protecting the rodeo articles) and demonstrated as much. While you think animal welfarists and animal rights activists are "extremists", an extremist tone has not been evident in my contributions. Your accusations of "soapboxing" are simply false. I resnt your personal attacks and unfounded accusations. Hope this helps! Keep up the good work! HatAct (talk) 05:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I consider the "yee-haw" comment to be a Personal attack.  You are making a stereotyped assumption about me based on where I live.   I am also not going to bother responding to your arguments point by point as we've been over this before.  You have a point of view, I have a point of view, and truly "pro-rodeo" advocates have a point of view.  The trick is balancing these points of view so that all sides have their views represented accurately, but without dominating the entire article with fringe theories.  (And PETA is, by most measurements, a fringe group.)  I consider myself a person of sufficient actual knowledge to be neutral, and I guarantee you that a month from now, some person with a truly pro-rodeo viewpoint will come in here and want to delete everything you inserted.  All I am doing is toning things down. And you can discuss the steer wrestling issue on the steer wrestling page.  Montanabw(talk) 00:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Proprietary Interests

message: The first sentence is incorrect.  "Bronc riding, either saddle bronc or bareback bronc competition, is a rodeo event".  Saddle Bronc Riding and Bareback Riding a distinct events not a single event.  These 2 events should not be combined into a single article.  Sprint (race) for example has a main article and then articles for specific events such as 100 metres Hutcher (talk) 01:48, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It apparently was two different articles somewhere before I started working on the rodeo articles, and then they were merged, not by me. I don't know the reasoning behind the merge and I hate to get into edit wars, so I haven't cared to kick that particular beehive.  I think that there may have been yet a third article that also had information on both events.  I guess my feelings on the matter is that it's not a moral issue, but if you look at "what links here" you will see that there are a lot of cross-refs that will need to be analyzed and fixed if the article is split back into two.  I guess my take is don't do the split unless you also want to do all the organizational cleanup, which in this case will involve a lot of article analysis to determine which places to link one event, where to link the other, and when both will need to be linked.  I don't have the time to do it, but I would be willing to birddog it and offer suggestions.  Maybe the thing to do is a draft version of each here on the talk page, or in a sandbox, and when they are ready to go, then plop them in.  Montanabw(talk) 03:57, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Follow up Please don't create separate articles yet, especially poor quality stubs, it will mess up everything. Better we link to an oddly-named article but one with substantive material.  I had to clean up several of your edits to various articles, too, correcting some incorrect information along the way, so please proceed with some caution and read the WP:MOS as you edit, OK?  Montanabw(talk) 05:46, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odd Merge 

message: Yep, I'm Ok with merging now.  Montanabw(talk) 19:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: New merge

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