Talk:Macedonian language/Archive 1

message: User:Makedon just deleted this paragraph. I was wondering whether the facts deleted were true or false. Bogdan | Talk
: It is further argued that whereas the Macedonian language was standardised as late as 1945, all historical figures regarded by the Republic of Macedonia as representatives of the Macedonian Revival in the 19th century wrote in standard Bulgarian, as well as that allegations that the Macedonian language existed as early as the 10th century find no corroboration in documents and are fictional. It is claimed that Macedonian historians resort to systematic distortions and falsifications of history and documents so as to adjust them to their official version. A typical example given is the collection of folk songs written in the vernacular and published in 1861 by the Miladinov Brothers, regarded by the Republic of Macedonia as pioneers of the Macedonian language. The collection was initially published under the title "Bulgarian Folk Songs" but has later been re-printed in the Republic of Macedonia under the name "Collection" with careful editions of the numerous references to "Bulgaria" and "Bulgarian" in the text.
User:VMORO
Yes, they are, and he'll try anything to shut this up. Original documents at http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/
"Shop" or "Shopsky" is a group of dialects in western Bulgaria and eastern Macedonia, what you claim is bizarre
User:Makedon
That is the stance of the Bulgarian Nationalists. 
The Macedonians in the 19th century had no high education in their mother tongue (Macedonia was not independant like Bulgaria or Serbia), and they attended the universities in Sofia, Belgrade, Moscow, St.Petersburg etc. That is why some of them wrote Bulgarian, Serbian or Russian, but they considered themselves Macedonians.. But there were also pepole like Georgija Pulevski, Dimitrija Chupovski, and Krste Misirkov for example who wrote in pure Macedonian. Misirkov's book "On Macedonian Matters" publshed in 1903 gave the principles of the literary language which was affirmed in 1944 (on the date of creation of the free Macedonian state)
The Miladinov Brothers' collection is available in Macedonia too as "Bulgarian Folk Songs" and there is no "conspiracy" to cover things up..
Shopski is the Bulgarian dialect that comes in contact with Macedonian...That is why to Macedonians, it sounded funny.. Even now, it is not strange to hear someone being called a "Shop"- meaning "dumb, funny"
User:VMORO
*Yes, they did not have any education as their mother tongue was considered Bulgarian. Consult Lejean, Boue, Sax, Kiepert, Verkovic, Weigand, Selishev, etc. 
*Even authors like Brailsford who speak about "Macedonian Slavs" talk only about a "Macedonian dialect", which is different from Serbian and Bulgarian (as Serbia and Bulgaria claimed the population of the region as Serbian/Bulgarian) but is closer to Bulgarian. 
*By the way, the title of the part of the book in which Brailsford talks about the "Macedonian Slavs"  is titled "the Bulgarian movement". The same author speaks about IMRO as "bulgarophil Macedonians".
*Your favourite author (Krste Misirkov) writes in his book (which I have read in Macedonian very unfortunately for you) that your forefathers before 1878 used to call themselves only Bulgarian, now (1904) some of them have called themselves Bulgarians, some Serbs and some in "another way" (evidently meaning Macedonian). The reason he gives for the division of Macedonians and Bulgarians is the political situation on the Balkans and the position of Russia  which would not allow Bulgaria to rule over the whole of Macedonia. He literally says that it will be better for Macedonia to be whole and populated by Macedonians than be split between Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia and be populated by Bulgarians. Have you even read this book??? 
*Do you have any idea of the biography of Misirkov?? Are you aware that he was a Bulgarian teacher for 20 years (this is after 1904) in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian colonies in Bessarabia?
*The Miladinov Brothers' collection "Bulgarian folk songs" was not available in Macedonia under its original title until recently. Why did you erase the paragraph about it then (if it is available)? 
*Your remark about "shopsky" clearly shows your attitude. Certainly I believe you that the "Macedonians" who were so culturally developed that they did not have even one Macedonian school in Macedonia (at a point where there were Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian, Albanian, Jewish and Turkish schools) and did not publish even one periodical in this mythical language that you are talking about regarded the Bulgarian language which most of their children studied in school as "uncivilized" and "funny".
*The article about Goce Delchev had "Bulgarian/Macedonian" (for the sake of NPOV) before the name. Although all beginning of the 20th century sources speak about IMRO as a Bulgarian organization (Bulgarian comitadjii), although Goce clearly says that he is Builgarian in the letter a scanned copy of I attached (and whose authenticity can be ascertained very easily), you decided to rewrite the opinion of historyofmacedonia.org.
*I appeal to all unbiased readers to consult original sources (Henry Brailsford's book, newspapers, magazines and encyclopedias from the beginning of the 20th century, any other books about Macedonia published before 1940 and their later editions if they haven't been "edited" by Skopjan historians) before making any opinion on the matter. This is not a propaganda war, this is the truth against the falsification.
*Henry Brailford is in no way prejudiced for the Bulgarians. He is used abundantly in histories and anthologies published by Macedonian historians and linguists (though only certain sentences and statements).
User:Makedon
*Yes, it was considered Bulgarian - by the Bulgarians, and Serbian by the Serbs etc.. but the fact stays that there were no higher education schools in Macedonian
*User:VMORO Not only by the Bulgarians and not only by the Serbs, that's the point.
*You base all your claims on Brailford - I think that is very symptomatic.
*User:VMORO: Nope. I pointed Brailsford because he talks a lot about IMRO (he was a British journalist who stayed for five months in Macedonia after the Ilinden Uprising) and because he also talks about "Macedonian Slavs" (not meaning a nationality though). 
It is gonna be much easier for me to base my claims on Ami Boue, Lejean, Safarik, Griesebach, Sax, Verkovic (who was a famous Serbian archaelogist and who published "Songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians" beside his ethnographic research), Gustav Weigand, Russian linguist Selishev and MANY others who proclaim them Bulgarians. 
To say nothing of the International commission of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace which studied the causes and conduct of the Balkan wars. Some of these ethnographers and linguists defined the Slavs in Macedonia as Bulgarian when even the Bulgarians themselves thought they were Greek (1830s and 1840s).
*I am glad you read Misirkov but I guess you couldnt' understand Macedonian all that well. You missed the part where he says "we were called Bulgarians, but that name was not our choice, but it was given to us by others" (the Greeks). And what is so strange in him being a teacher in Bulgaria? Aside from Macedonian, he spoke Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, Russian, Czech etc.. 
*User:VMORO:
I am perfectly sure I understood Misirkov very well. What you say here is a logical oximoron as the Greeks claimed all Slavs in Macedonia were Bulgarophone Greeks. Besides, you Macedonians should learn once and for all that taking a sentence out of the context does not prove anything as it may bear reference to smth completely different. Read the excerpts below
*User:Makedon Ok, let me get this right - We, the Macedonians take sentences out of context and you -whatever you are - prove things by.......... taking sentences out of context?? 
Here's a quote from Misirkov in 1903:
"Ниiе се велеме бугари, како шчо iеден чоек се велит со iедно име, да речиме Петр. Се прашат, коi ни го клал името, шчо сакал да означит тоi со него, кога не крстил и шчо разбираме ниiе под името бугарин, кога се велиме со него? На тиiе прашаiн'а ке ни одгоорит крстуаiн'ето на чоека и значеiн'ето на негоото име за друзите и за самиiот него.
Со името бугари не крстиiа грците и нас македонците. Но тоа прекрстуаiн'е не iет iединствено. От србите ниiе бефме прекрстени во срби.
"
*The Macedonians did have schools in Macedonian but not higher education, you missunderstood that. 
*User:VMORO: That is wrong and is a lie. 
*User:Makedon You dont have to believe it, it's still true..
And there were books published in Macedonian. Find Gorgija Pulevski for example..
*User:VMORO:
There were three Slav Macedonian propagandists: Pulevski, Misirkov and Machukovski. There were three Slav Macedonian propagandists: Pulevski, Misirkov and Machukovski. What you don't mention is that they got no attention before the 1940's and were supported neither by the population, nor by the IMRO leaders. I think it is perfectly normal for a region where half the population thought it was Bulgarian and many people thought they were Serbian, Greek and even Romanian(!!!), 
*User:Makedon Slav Macedonian propagandist?? How about Macedonian Patriots? And are you sure they were just three?
What you don't mention is that they got no attention before the 1940's 
*User:Makedon Perhaps they didnt get attention in Bulgaria... 
and were supported neither by the population, nor by the IMRO leaders. I think it is perfectly normal for a region where half the population thought it was Bulgarian and many people thought they were Serbian, Greek and even Romanian(!!!), 
: No need for the exclamation marks. The Romanians of Macedonia are the Vlachs. See  Bogdan | Talk 20:01, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  deleted paragraph, Shopski, Miladinov, Misirkov, propaganda, ...