Talk:Space opera noir

message: :A quick side note to this section - A week has passed since the date of the very first critique on this entry.  One wonders if the phrase "Still" really appropriate?
The article is still in need of sources. For example, the last two sentences of the "Characteristics" section set out the opinions of unspecified critics and fans of the genre. Who expresses these opinions, and where? In the "Examples" section, who says that the work of Reynolds, Dietz, and Banks are space opera noir? Right now this section reads like the writer's analysis rather than a report on what commentators are saying--unless there are commentators, critics, or reviewers who can be cited. 
On the matter of consistency: The lead paragraph identifies space opera noir as a genre "that evolved during the early 21st century." Then the Examples section uses two writers (Dietz and Banks) whose exemplary work comes from the 1980s. (Dietz, by the way, is generally identified as a writer of military SF.) If the examples are valid, then the lead needs to be edited.
I know that sourcing is tricky for popular culture topics and for emerging terms and genres, but the "reliable sources" principles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources) seem reasonable to me. And given the frequency with which fans of SF and fantasy come up with neologisms, nonce terms, joke terms, and other verbal inventions when communicating among themselves, it's worth the effort to distinguish between language that has worked its way into the established vocabulary and items that are not yet part of it. 
A bit of theory: A genre label is part of a system of literary taxonomy, and it reflects both the way literary commentators talk about texts and the ways that texts are produced. When a new category of text starts to appear, there can be a period of instability or uncertainty as it is noticed by readers, reviewers, and so on, and eventually named. And as new writers notice it and start to produce new texts that fit the emerging genre. This may be happening with "space opera noir," but I would like to see something more than blog entries, Amazon reader reviews, and marketing copy in order to be convinced. (BTW, the "German" pages cited in a comment above are Swedish; one is a blog, the other is a bookseller's site.) RLetson 01:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the most recent comments.  They are very useful, and I will edit and cite as time permits. I have noted the consistancy points, and have also changed the beginning of the article to use the phrase "term" instead of "genre".  I would agree that genre is perhaps too strong at this stage to use. Perhaps ever.  --68.81.2.64 22:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The URLs that are currently subbing for proper references need to be clarified in order to properly cite the sources of the material in the article. We have no information about these sources, either. All this can be fixed with proper footnoting. Adrian M. H. 10:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Still no sources? And internal consistency

message: Space Opera Noir is a subgenre (at best) of New Space Opera, which is a subgenre of Space Opera. The works that can be included in all three are like concentric circles. I don't know what wikipedia's guidelines are to the listing of subgenres -- give them their own entry, or list them under the primary genre? DanQuigley 15:29, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and think that unless sources appear to show this term is notable enough on its own, it should be merged into the Space Opera article. Especially considering the "Orphaned page tag"Yobmod (talk) 08:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see any reason to change my comments from two years ago, but I will expand on them. Until there is evidence that "space opera noir" is an actual part of the working vocabulary of SF commentary rather than a nonce term, I don't see any point in enshrining it in Wikiland. While one might write an essay on "Noir Elements in Recent SF, With Special Attention to 'New Space Opera,'" there isn't much of a case to be made for the existence of a separate subgenre called "space opera noir." "Noir" is just another element in the mix of space opera--and of SF and fantasy at large. As for the content of this article, I don't see anything that can be salvaged for merging into the Space Opera entry--the assumptions it makes about genre in general and space opera in particular are flawed. RLetson (talk) 06:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't check on the 2 sources given, and at first reading it seemed like "noir" was just an adjective modyfying SO, not necessarily a notably term in itself. If the sources check out, i would shrink it down to just one sentence after the New Space Opera paragraph, otherwise i'll just redirect it (as a viable serarch term only).Yobmod (talk) 11:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

text: OK, i set it as a redirect, as being much easier than going through deletion, and it being a possible (if rare) search term. I believe it is used by some people, so might be searched but is not notable enough for a seperate page.Yobmod (talk) 10:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Space Opera (merge?)