Talk:Moscopole

message: Macrakis, do you have any source on Albanians in Voskopoja? From the sources I read, back then there was no significant Albanian population in the city. bogdan 19:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Orthodox culture in eighteenth-century Albania is intimately linked to the rise of the city Voskopojë.... Many Greek scholars of note came to teach at Voskopojë among the Aromunians, who made up the majority of the population, the Albanians and the Greeks.
The multilingual glossaries published there (Kavaliotis, Daniil) also indicate that Albanian was one of the local languages. I'd be happy to see more sources. --Macrakis 20:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

text: "My Aromanian interviewees referred to Voskopoja as formerly exclusively Aromanian/Vlach, highly developed, urban centre of Balkan trading."
bogdan 21:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Peyfuß offers a refreshingly critical review of the town's rise and history, noting that much of the literature on Moschopolis is unreliable and influenced by wishful thinking on the part of mostly nationalist authors from the Balkans. As an historian he relies on the facts as far as they can be determined.
(from cited Elsie review)
I have no axe to grind here.  It is clear that Moschopolis was destroyed by Muslim Albanians; the role of Christian Albanians seems less clear, and I'd be happy to see more evidence one way or the other. (see also http://www.farsarotul.org/nl17_1.htm -- nothing decisive, but interesting) --Macrakis 21:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albanians in Voskopoja?  

message: Both the Swedish & Deutch Wiki use the Albanian name Voskopoja for the article, and not the Greek one. The Albanian name Voskopoja also have more google hits than the Greek name Moscopole! Plus the city is situated in Albania not Greece!
--Albanau 12:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moscopole or Voskopoja 

message: What is current ethno-linguistical of today's Voskopoja? Luka Jačov (talk) 17:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Aromanians 100%--Honor et Patria (talk) 11:17, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic structure 

message: Dear Alexikoua, let me remind you what you said earlier at User talk:Aqwis' talk page:
:The reason why Moscopole is the article's name is because the city, a metropolis of 60,000 pop. during mid. 18th century, doesn't exist now. A village of 700 called Voskopoja on the same place is just a shadow of Moscopole.
Now, the lead page has it: Moscopole [...] is a small village in southeastern Albania. I’m perplexed, Moscopole is
:1. A metropolis of 60,000 pop. during mid. 18th century, that now doesn’t exists; or 
::2. Moscopole [...] is a small village in southeastern Albania; or
:::3. A village of 700 called Voskopoja on the same place, just a shadow of Moscopole.
:I think that you just don’t know what you’re talking about. I think you should let others handle this. Of course Voskopoja (Moschopolis) exists, I saw it last summer with my own eyes: it was there... at the usual place where it has been for some 700 hundred years. --User:Guildenrich 22:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moscopole or Voskopoja? 

message: Voskopoja was an Albanian Christian city ,here a vigorous Albanian movement developed , it involved comparison of various alphabet used to express the Albanian language ..The academy of Voskopoja proved very influential in Albanian literary and of national Albanian consciousnesses …Theodor Kavalioti of Voskopoja 1718-1797 director of New Academy published a scholarly study of Albanian of 1200 Albanian words.Kavalioti wanted to setup a press in Elbasan too, he want in person to escort the heavy boxes …..Another four language vocabulary by Dhanil Mihal Adam Haxhi in 1794 included 235 sentences in Albanian regarding daily life
The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present By Edwin E. Jacques
http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA281&dq=voskopoja+albanian+culture#v=onepage&q=voskopoja%20albanian%20culture&f=false  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.29.118 (talk) 09:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If the author of a book about the history of some place,  mentions that the people of that place hold some particular mythical belief,  that doesn't necessary mean that the author of the book endorses that belief or claims that the belief is historically correct.  Making such a statement in a book,  does not convert the whole book into a fiction.Eregli bob (talk) 23:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Voskopoja and is local Albanian inhabitants 

message: I think there should be a section on the origin of the name, which means "city of the sheppherds", voskos, moschos, in both its forms. Guildenrich 18:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moschopolis and Voschopolis 

message: left|350px Guildenrich (talk) 15:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Bla bla bla, as usual

message: It seems that a number of sources say that it was a Metropolis:
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And of course a 60,000 large city in the 18th century: and second largest city in the Balkans that time "was" a metropolis.Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The 60k is the true Metropolitan Legend. The city had 25-30k inhabitants See Gjurmime Albanologjike (which says that Athens and Belgrade at that time had 20k, so it's Ok I guess. --Sulmues Let's talk  20:31, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Even with 20,000, it was a huge urban center of that time. Only a few Balkan cities were that large, since we are talking about 17th century pre Industrial revolution era. By the way since we have plenty of English speaking sources, non-english sources (and especially stalinist ones) as per policy are not preferred.Alexikoua (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The term 'metropolis' in the sense of 'very large city' is vague and not terribly helpful.  The term 'metroplis' in the sense of 'seat of a metropolitan bishop' is well-defined and would be relevant in a Religion section.  I have no idea if Moscopole was a metropolis, archdiocese, or whatever either in its heyday or today, however. --Macrakis (talk) 21:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a metropolis of the Vlachs (Aromanians), and as such the overwhelming majority of the mainstream bibliography uses this term (today as I know it's just a tiny village, nothing to do with Balkan's second largest city in the 18th century)Alexikoua (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

text: What's the meaning of the ancient Greek metropolis Alexi? --Sulmues Let's talk  15:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Presumably this refers to Moscopole as the "mother city" of the Aromanian diaspora, on the analogy of ancient Greek colonies.  But as far as I know, Moscopole did not send out colonies. And anyway, using the word 'metropolis' to describe Moscopole as a center of emigration makes the article less, not more, clear.  Perhaps some clearer formulation can be found? --Macrakis (talk) 16:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Alexikoua, these Google search counts don't prove much here.  By this technique, we should call Moschopolis a village: [ moschopolis metropolis ]: 26; [ moschopolis city ]: 157; [ moschopolis town ]: 190; [ moschopolis village ]: 212. So we need better arguments.  In particular, what exactly is being claimed by calling Moschopolis a "metropolis"? --Macrakis (talk) 20:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Can't see the full context of Peyfuss though. Elsie we can see in full. --Sulmues Let's talk  20:36, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a well known book, actually all estimates are from 50,000 to 70,000. Albanian authors tend to minimized the number (per Peyfuss).Alexikoua (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, you are misreading the German.  The snippet you point to above actually says "...The truth may be closer to this number [sc. 3500] than to 70,000. Albanian historians estimate the 18th-century population of Moschopolis at 5-7000 or 15-20,000. Moschopolis was certainly not among the largest Balkan cities of the 18th century". --Macrakis (talk) 22:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

text: this edit seems to be of another opinion. The statistics on the bottom are clearly clashing with what the main text is saying currently. No one can be sure but we have to think about how many people were served by 24 churches. The number in my opinion is between 10k and 20k. --Sulmues Let's talk  13:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest we create a section about these estimates. No official data existed that time, although 18th cent. writers and travelers (like Thunmann) adopted the 60,000 number. I've also found some exaggerated estimates of 200,000 []. I believe all this stuff should fit in a section.Alexikoua (talk) 20:32, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's fine with me. --Sulmues Let's talk  20:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Metropolis

message: Can someone do pics mgmt here? I don't want to stir up any controversy. --Sulmues Let's talk  16:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I might have been of a different opinion in the past, and the consensus might change in future, for now in my opinion we should keep Moscopole throughout the article. It's the name in Aromanian and the city gained its notability in the 18th century, when it was mainly a Vlach city. In addition per respect of what the Vlachs have given to Albania (and Greece for that matter), we should conserve the Aromanian name. --Sulmues Let's talk  13:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Nationalistic future plans for wikipedia... That's very interesting, please read wp:what wikipedia is.Alexikoua (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not saying that I will change opinion. I'm saying that consensus of other editors might substitute my opinion. --Sulmues Let's talk  23:04, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what you exactly did on talk:Panajot Pano, when a troll appeared and you supported him. This doesn't mean that this is constructive: following trolls and support the 'hidden' pov.Alexikoua (talk) 23:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Alexi, get the facts straight and take the blinkers off your eyes. No one told me to take off all Voskopoje and substitute it with Moscopole. Panajot Pano has nothing to do with Moscopole.  --Sulmues Let's talk  03:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Great edit by Athenean. --Sulmues (talk) 12:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pics 

message: Is the book by Ben Blushi  "literature"?  Seems more like a non-notable, pop culture anti-Muslim polemic.  I also note that the novel itself is used as a ref, which is rather comical.  Since I already know what the usual suspects are going to say, I'd be more interested in the opinion of neutral editors.  Athenean (talk) 21:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Although you might not need my opinion, I doubt that many people have read the book. I have. It's a fictional book about characters of Voskopoje. The plot of the book spans for two centuries and evolves around the city. The artistic value in my opinion is not one of the highest: Ben Blushi, although son of a very notable children's writer, Kico Blushi, doesn't seem to be at the heights of his father in literature, and seems more versed in politics (he is number two of the Socialist Party of Albania (after Edi Rama)). That's just my opinion, though. Still the book's main character is the city of Voskopoje/Moscopole and the description of the city's belle epoque and its decline. It describes how the first people of Moscopole started to become Muslim and how internal wars between Muslims and Christians led to the destruction of the city. The controversy that the book generated was clearly notable both nationally and internationally. --Sulmues Let's talk  13:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

text: Why should it go Alexi? Give me other examples of literature on Moscopole and, if possible, enter them in that paragraph. It's not that we have hundreds of fictional books on the town and we should get rid of the bad ones. IMO it is notable and verifiable and should stay. --Sulmues Let's talk  13:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually this is the definition of pov: All Wikipedia  articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This isn't all but the tiniest fraction you could find.Alexikoua (talk) 13:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed. If it's such a big deal, let's keep the poorest state of art. --Sulmues Let's talk  13:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Literature" 

message: According to this article of Albert Kotini, Eqerem Bej Vlora has written in his memories how the Dangellia region people destroyed Moscopole because the city hadn't paid protection taxes to them for 4 years. Someone should find what book exactly, because the article writer doesn't fully cite. --Sulmues (talk) 21:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems fine to me. What's the problem with the 'participation in the Orlov revolt'?Alexikoua (talk) 21:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Just two historians disagreeing and giving different versions. --Sulmues (talk) 21:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Which? Eqerem Bey isn't a historian [].
Also there was not a one day destruction but a 3 month long wave of destruction at 1769 (see Kekridis). A very detailed approach is also here [].Alexikoua (talk) 21:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

text: Sure, we have plenty of material in googlebooks about this event (I mean english speaking material).Alexikoua (talk) 22:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  First destruction (1769)

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

message: The once prosperous city of Moscopole was a target of raids by Muslim Albanian bands in the late 18th century. Although the references are stating this in detail in the appropriate sections, they are not present in the lead, but this doesn't mean that the correspodent facts shouldn't part of the lead.Alexikoua (talk) 12:43, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Unexplained adjustments

message: You must prove that the 18th century vlahs from Korca basain were with macedonian lands ancesterals a dousen centuries ago...!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.43.239.199 (talk) 16:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  18th century vlahs from Korca basain 

message: The following discussion is moved from my talk page: --T*U (talk) 10:21, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has a long list of alterantive names in different languages in the opening sentence, among them two different Greek names. As the source says, the alternative name "Voskopolis" (as opposed to "Moschopolis") is derived from "voskos" and "polis", making the meaning "City of shepherds". Your edit resulted in a statement that "Voskopojë" means "City of shepherds". Even with my very limited knowledge of Albanian, I am quite sure that is not correct. --T*U (talk) 20:53, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "Voskopojë"  really means "City of shepherds"."Polis" is always changed to "pojë" in Albanian.For example "Nicopolis" is changed to "Nikopojë" in Albanian.Using the greek name for a place in Albania is unacceptable.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:12, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  (I indented your meaasge.) But Voskopojë does not mean "City of shepherds". The point here is the etymologi, which can only be derived from Greek. We could say something like "The Albanian name Voskopojë stems from Greek "Voskopolis", meaning "City of shepherds".", but then we would need a source for the derivation of Voskopojë from Voskopolis. Or we could say "The alternative Greek name "Voskopolis" means "City of shepherds"." But your "The alternative name "Voskopojë" means "City of shepherds"." does not work, simply because it is not true. --T*U (talk) 10:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  City of shepherds 

message: Someone claims that the theory of Muslim destruction of Moscopole is the main theory.This isn't true as the article says :"According to another opinion, the city's decline was mainly due to the relocation of the trade routes in central and eastern Europe following the aforementioned raids".There isn't any proof that the destruction by Muslims is the main theory.Rolandi+ (talk) 14:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: False claims

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I very much ask you to write correctly. In the Ottoman Empire, Rayah is run on a confessional basis, and all Orthodox, often and quite irrelevant to the age of romantic nationalism, are referred to as Greeks, but this designation is a symbol of denomination, not nationality. By the same token, you can classify Pella Palace as an achievement of Greek architecture. Angel Angel 2 (talk) 14:22, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moscopole was the center of Greek culture until the Orlov revolt ?!