Talk:Association of Vineyard Churches/Archive 1

message: I don't doubt that some of the Vineyard's doctrines are considered controversial by some Conservative and Fundamentalist Christian leaders, but can you delineate more about what those teachings are?  A provocative statement like that needs to be further explained instead of being left to "dangle" at the end of a paragraph. Jhortman 07:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial? 

message: I have completely redesigned the page to include more information and organization.  I kept most of the old information that was on the page, but relocated most of it into appropriate sections.  To better reflect the proper name of the church today, I have also renamed the page to the Association of Vineyard Churches. --Jhortman 03:45, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Redesign 

message: I believe, although I'm not positive, that upon his conversion to Christianity, it was to the Vineyard Fellowship that Bob Dylan turned.  I'm not going to modify the article for now, as I'd like to check my facts first, but if so, I'd say it merits an inclusion in the famous members section.  --Benwilson528 01:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I confirmed this and added it to the page with appropriate citations.  Thanks for the heads-up!  --Jhortman 06:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Famous members

message: Why is it that I can edit this page when I have nothing to do with this website?  so who is in control of content here? [Unsigned comment by User:131.238.124.118 13:55, 24 May 2006]
:Anyone can edit Wikipedia. It is based on consensus and discussion. You can insert nonsense (as you did - please don't do that again), but by the same token, other editors like myself can come along and correct you. See Wikipedia:FAQ for more information. David L Rattigan 14:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why?

message: The tone of the article is predominantly for Vineyard Churches USA.  Maybe that should be the title of the article and there should be an separate article for the International Vineyard Consortium. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dialsforme (talk • contribs).
:The tone of the article predominantly discusses the Vineyard USA because that's likely what the experience of most of the authors have been. If you'd like to expand it to include more discussion of the international activities of the Vineyard, please do.  If you'd like to create a page talking about the VIC, I have no objection... go for it. I think this page is appropriately titled, though. --Jhortman 20:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: USA-centric

message: Given the fact that User:69.211.220.12 has never posted an edit, I'll bet this is a "hit and run" edit, but I wanted to address these issues, anyway.  It seems that in this edit, the user simply added "Evangelical Protestant" to many of the comparisons between the Vineyard and other denominations. Even though the very basic nature of the edits (without explanation) makes them worthy of reversion all by itself, I wanted to address each of the places where the adjectives were added:
*Sola Scriptura - simply put, it's not just a view held by evangelical denominations, and the tenet of Sola Scriptura is ancient and traditional. Just look at the wikipedia page for it, and the references on that page
*Worship - think about this one for a minute... yes, it's true that some other evangelical churches were still only using traditional hymns in their service, but it's also true of non-evangelical denominations.  Limiting the comparison to only evangelical churches makes it seem as though other churches possibly were already moving towards "more modern" worship.
*Ordination and statement about vestments - this edit seemed to simply be reworded so the editor could include the adjectives "evangelical protestant," and given the incorrect nature of the other edits, I saw no need to insert an arbitrary "any" in the final sentence that was changed.  --Jhortman 04:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Evangelical Protestant"

message: OK.  I made some enhancements to some of the text; I hope it's acceptable.  --Mdoc7 02:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything looks ok to me, except the first sentence of the "History" section. I changed it again to attempt to make it sound a little less confusing.  Thanks for helping to improve this page! --Jhortman 03:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Editorial changes

message: It seems to me that someone saw the documentary that was released a couple of years ago about Lonnie Frisbee and posted some of the information that was contained in that movie without properly citing it. As such, I have removed it.  If you do additional research about Lonnie Frisbee's role in the Calvary Chapel and Vineyard movements, you will see that he did have a substantial role in the churches in Costa Mesa and Yorba Linda, but not to the extent that is claimed in the edits to this article.  (I have not seen the movie, so I can not speak to the movie's claims.)  Here's a link to an article from the OC Weekly in 2005 that discusses the movie and Lonnie frisbee .  Here's another link to a discussion of Lonnie Fribee on apologeticsindex.org .
Simply put, while Fribee was an important character in the early development of the Vineyard movement, it is not appropriate to say that he "founded" the Vineyard, nor that he came up with the Vineyard name.  (Kenn Gullickson's church and bible study groups had been using the Vineyard name before they ever met John Wimber, and it was with Wimber that Frisbee became involved in the Vineyard.)  I have nothing personally against Lonnie Frisbee, and I personally doubt that he's been "erased" from Vineyard history just because he had issues with homosexuality and died from AIDS (as the movie apparently claims).  If those claims are going to be made in the Wikipedia article however, along with claims about his historical participation in the early founding of the Vineyard church, then those claims must be properly cited.  The previous content was not.  --Jhortman 22:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lonnie Frisbee 

message: Frankly I just did not find this section to be helpful or academic.  Unless you can justify to me why these particular leaders/members (Dylan is not a member) ought to be recognized on this page I will delete them every time I get on.  
I also made some insignificant word order changes in the heresy claims section.  I thought the changes made for clearer syntax.
Thanks to all for your helpful contributions.  63.252.247.46 04:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your edit summary states that you find this section to be "in poor taste and purely opinion." That is not a sufficient reason for removing material from Wikipedia. I see that someone else has already reverted your edit.  In the future, you should create a username before removing an entire section of a page... that will tend to give your edit more credibility.  At any rate, naming well-known members/followers of the Vineyard Movement is perfectly acceptable per Wikipedia guidelines, as long as they meet the standard of notability.  I think every person currently listed (as of 2/16/07) meets that criteria. --Jhortman 03:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing Famous People 

message: I have twice reverted edits related to the Toronto Airport Vineyard that were added by User:24.192.97.254.  The reason I have removed this information is twofold:
First, the quotation made about the TAVCF is not relevant to the discussion in the "Claims of Heresy" section.  Quoting a passage about how John Wimber came to the point of "expelling" the Toronto Airport Vineyard (and doesn't even really get to the point until the very end) is not a positive addition to this section.
Second, the article this information is cited from is 9 years old, and every statistical piece of information in the cited article is out-of-date. Such an outdated piece of material is not appropriate for inclusion as a cited source, IMO.
Please respond on this talk page before re-adding the section in question.  --Jhortman 07:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted Edits from [[User:24.192.97.254]] 

message: This box seen on other pages with Christianity articles...
"Part of a series of articles on Christianity
Christianity
Foundations
Jesus Christ
Church · Christian Theology
New Covenant · Supersessionism
Dispensationalism
Apostles · Kingdom · Gospel
History of Christianity · Timeline......"
I find these boxes helpful, i'd like to see it properly incorporated into the page
24.106.68.233 04:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No Argument from me... feel free to include it if you'd like.  If I "get around to it," I might do it later myself.  --Jhortman 17:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been looking into the different Christianity boxes, and I don't know that this article definitely fits into any of them neatly.  Certainly the Christianity box would apply broadly, but none of the (very many) links in that box links directly to The Vineyard. (The only one that indirectly links would be the "denominations" link.) I don't know that any of the other Christianity-themed boxes that are out there provide a direct link to this page, either... anybody have any suggestions?  (Here's the "Christianity" box) --Jhortman 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  should this be box be added? 

message: I've removed 3 external links that were added by Teune.  I did not remove them because they present a critical view of the Vineyard... I removed them because they don't meet the external link requirements set forth in the Wikipedia Links Policy.  I've pasted a few pertinent points of the policy below that I believe these links don't meet.
===What should be linked===
*Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if  any.
*Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.
*Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
===Links normally to be avoided===
Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:
* Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
* Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources.
* Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.
If those links can be included as cited sources for information that is added to the article, that would be a more preferable use for them. --Jhortman 17:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of External Links 

message: Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:
* Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
* Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources.
* Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.</blockquote>
If those links can be included as cited sources for information that is added to the article, that would be a more preferable use for them. --Jhortman 17:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links normally to be avoided

message: Clergy ... almost never wear ceremonial vestments. Are there any verifiable instances of Vineyard pastors wearing any sort of clerical dress? I'll eat my hat if there are! I'd suggest the word almost should be deleted. Sidefall (talk) 08:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done it. Hyper3 (talk) 13:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clergy 

message: On what basis should these be added? I think we should be conservative in creating a list of books that might give a good introduction to the Vineyard as a movement, rather than listing all possible books by Vineyard authors on any subject. Hyper3 (talk) 11:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Related books 

message: I think we should restrict the famous members section to people known well throughout the Vineyard and beyond, for whatever reason. Hyper3 (talk) 11:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the standard should be, that they have their own page on wikipedia to justify notability... Hyper3 (talk) 12:20, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous... 

message: I think there should be a section outlining how the Vineyard approach to church life is different for others. What practices might be mentioned in this context? Hyper3 (talk) 13:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distinctive practices 

message: The organisation section is very US-centric, and gives information of marginal value that could be looked up on the main website. This needs improving, with a better description of how the Vineyard operate around the world.Hyper3 (talk) 14:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: we go to church at a vineyard nearby and would like to thank the authors of this article for their work on this topic it is a topic near and dear to my heart my place of employment had no idea there every was a vineyard movement now i can tell tnem were to go to get a good write up on this topic  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.200.78.195 (talk) 13:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organisation