Talk:Achaeans (Homer)

message: "Achaeans" is not the name given to any archaeologically identifyable culture. The recent info added about "18th century Achaeans" belongs either under "Mycenaean Civilization" or under "Proto-Greeks" (the latter are estimated to have reached Greece between 2500 and 2000 BC). Before the discovery of the "Ahhiyawa" texts, Achaeans was the collective name for the Greeks in Homer. If we identify them with the Ahhiyawa, they become a historical people, the mycenaean Greeks of the 13th century. This article should exclusively deal with (a) the homeric Achaeans and (b) the Ahhiyawa references. We have no way to determine whether the Achaeans already were a separate tribe among the immigrating proto-greeks. There are a series of good articles at Aegean Civilization. We just need to link to these, and History of Mycenaean Greece, no need to summarize that information here. dab 10:40, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 18th century Achaeans

message: Is there any source which might link the term Danaans to the Irish Tuatha De Danann or the Danua tribe of Sea Peoples?  The names are strikingly similar and the mythology of the Danua/Sea People would certainly fit the Dorian invasion period. User:FeanorStar7
It may also be worth researching if the Dananns can be linked to the Biblical Danites, one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Dryley —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.253.71.68 (talk • contribs).
Taking into account the myth of "Danaides" (Daughters of Danaus),which is connected with flowing water,the name Danaus is propably linked with the PIE root *danu=river.
Denyen or Danuna who are identified as inhabitants of Adana of Anatolia  were one group of the sea-peoples.Mycenean Pylos was destroyed by sea peoples.It's
also possible that the Danites were Aegean.The probleme is with the chronology.(see Greeks-namesAxosman (talk) 13:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Etymological links for term Danaans?

message: Is it correct to state that Ahhiyawa is a place in Asia Minor?  This seems to be saying outright that the Ahhiyawa are not the Achaeans, which strikes me as POV.  Clearly they have connections to Asia Minor, but I didn't think it was clear where Ahhiyawa was supposed to be.  Anybody know? john k 21:18, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This is still disputed, but I think most people place Ahhiyawa on the mainland now. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ahhiyawa 

message: I believe that Ahhiyawans and Achaeans were the same people.
But perhaps, the word Ahhiyawa is derived from the word "Ogygia" (or preciously, Ôgygia or Ωγυγια), the original name of Attica and Boeotia.
Plus, it is possible that the "Aegean sea" may derived from "Ogygia".
The people of Ogygia are Ogyges (i.e. Ogy-ges) and the suffix "-ges" was usual in ante-Greek and proto-Greek tribes.
The root "Ogy-" there is in both words Achae-ans and Ahhi-ya-wa.
So, perhaps Hittites, originally, knew the Achaeans/Ogygians of Athens of Attica and later, the Achaeans of Argos of Peloponnesos.
--IonnKorr 19:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ahhiyawa and Ogygia 

message: I don't think Homer ever refers to a geographic entity called "Achaea". He certainly doesn't make Argos its capital, nor is Agamemnon's kingdom (which doesn't include Argos) equated with Achaea. The article seems to confuse Homeric political geography with historical Greek political geography; not really a good idea.
This bit of the article seems questionable: "Danaans is the name attributed to the tribe first dominating the Peloponnese and the area near Argos. Achaeans is the name of the tribe that, reinforced by the Aeolians, first dominated Greek territories, centering itself around its capital in Mycenae." Where does this information come from? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Homeric "Achaea" and other problems

message: Can someone please provide a reference to substantiate the "Egyptian sources" section? So far, I had to remove an entire paragraph that seemed to contain a mish-mash of facts and unsubstantive interpretations. Deucalionite (talk) 14:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Egyptian sources 

message: "scholarly consensus has not yet been reached on the origin of the historic Achaeans, and is still hotly debated." If this "origin" (a creaky formula itself) is "still hotly debated", how is it that all the references date to the 1920s? The "hot" debate might be dealt with summarily as a sideline on historiography of the Achaeans.--Wetman (talk) 10:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Rather a stale debate

message: I have deleted the text 
:Homer never used the word "Greeks" 
from the introduction. Homer uses the word Hellenes now translated as Greeks for the followers of Achilles and those in the area around Thessaly. --5telios (talk) 16:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: More precisely, Homer said that Achilles ruled over both Achaeans and Hellenes: Those again who held Pelasgian Argos, Alos, Alope, and Trachis; and those of Phthia and Hellas the land of fair women, who were called Myrmidons, Hellenes, and Achaeans. This is dubious and the Iliad is not history, but the statement can be read as if the Hellenes were one tribe or ethnic group that were possibly not Achaean, the very opposite of the term having a panhellenic meaning. Hellas here seems to refer to a land ruled by Achilles along with Phthia, not to all of Greece. The article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Greeks covers this topic better and should be perhaps linked here. There is a claim that Homer uses the term panhellenic in the Iliad, but checking the link, it refers to a line saying that Ajax the Lesser excelled all other Hellenes and Achaeans in the use of the spear (http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-cgi/citequery3.pl?dbname=GreekTexts&getid=1&query=Hom.%20Il.%202.530). The word panhellenic is not to be found in Homer! Skamnelis (talk) 10:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Deleted text

message: A search on Ekwesh leads to this article, but the article doesn't give any basis for that redirection.  Add it.
71.163.117.143 (talk) 20:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: ~ I apologize, I did a page search with ekwesh spelled wrong, that's why I didn't find it. 71.163.117.143 (talk) 20:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  incomplete 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Ahhiyawa just links back to the same section of the same article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viciouspiggy (talk • contribs) 17:08, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circular link in "In Hittite Documents"