Talk:Second Italo-Ethiopian War

message: I do not think that it is encyclopedic to have the Italian colloquial name for the war (and not the Ethiopian one) in the lead. However I have been reverted so am starting a discussion here. 
The revert edit summary read . That may be the case, but I'm not sure that should guide our practice here, when 1) there already is an alternate name listed (i.e. "Second Italo-Abyssinian War") and 2) we do not give the Ethiopian name. 
Including both the Italian and the Ethiopian would be preferable to including only one or the other, but would of course clutter the initial sentence tremendously. As it stands, with the addition of just the Italian name, the sentence is already quite cluttered as it is. And it of course unduly favors one side's historical memory of the other's. 
For these reasons I think we should just stick to the two English-language names. Generalrelative (talk) 15:39, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with adding the Ethiopian name. I just don’t know what it is but please add it. -Indy beetle (talk) 15:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be acceptable to me. Pinging User:Jnyssen who can perhaps inform us (and direct us to a source?) if they have the time and inclination. Generalrelative (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

text: I've also posted to WikiProject Ethiopia and WikiProject Africa in hopes that someone can help us out with this. Generalrelative (talk) 16:55, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

text: Looking at the Amharic Wikipedia with the aid of Google Translate seems to indicate that the conflict is referred to as the "Italian Invasion" (ጣልያን ወረራ). Googling this term yields many results, including uses of the term to describe the conflict from the Ethiopian government () and the BBC (). I'll add that now and will be happy to be corrected if someone more knowledgeable cares to weigh in. Generalrelative (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian name for the war in the first sentence 

message: What does this mean: "He was told that the plane was to be used to bomb the Italian oil storage tanks at Massawa, and when the CID enquired about the alien (ex-German) pilot practices in it Shute got the impression that the Foreign Office did not object." Who's the CID? Suddenly appeared in this article. Is it the Committee for Imperial Defence? Then it needs to be made clear because the abbreviation appeared out of nowhere in this article. Xn00bit (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  CID = Committee of Imperial Defence? 

message: The Ethiopian patriot movement ( the  Arbegnoch ) only stated in the end of the war or in the late period of the war. They were not evolved during the war. Pokinan (talk) 09:56, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? The Arbegnoch began to operate in 1935/36. Applodion (talk) 10:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Moreover, one could argue that the war didn't end until 1945. Armed resistance went on throughout the years under Italian occupation. If this war had been fought today, there is no way that the Wikipedia article would have used the last conventional battle as an end date. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 20:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbegnoch were involved only aftet the war 

message: @Applodion @87.236.146.236 That source cited for the Ethiopian casualties of 275,000 is not correct. That website (which seems unreliable) states that the three sources "accept that 275,000 Ethiopians died in combat", however, this is not true. Del Boca explicitly states in his book Gli italiani in Africa Orientale - II. La conquista dell'Impero (2009) that the 1945 memorandum were made up of "unreliable figures" and that the "most reliable estimate is the Italian one, which estimated them at approximately 40-50,000 men on the northern front and 15-20,000 on the southern front."
Secondly @87.236.146.236 you put 3,350 Italians killed in the infobox citing Sbacchi, however, Sbacchi does not state that number anywhere in his book. Here is what he actually says on pg 33 of his book Ethiopia under Mussolini "In the Ethiopian war nearly 15,000 Italians died and over 200,000 were crippled or wounded" So how am I vandalizing this page and "removing sourced content" if the sources don't even say what you added? Next time read the actual source before making inflammatory edits summaries and accusing editors of bad conduct. If we are using Del Boca's figures for Italian losses then we should use his figures for the Ethiopian losses as well.
Lastly Clodfelter's book does not say that 275,000 Ethiopians were killed in combat. He states that the number included BOTH civilians and military casualties; Ethiopian military and civilian dead, many of them from the barbarous Italian bomb and mustard gas, were estimated as high as 275,000. Essentially, only Sbacchi accepts the 275,000 figure. The rest do not. محرر البوق (talk) 09:14, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualties  

message: After reading abundant sources of texts about the war, I've pondered editing the wiki in turning the result an Ethiopian pyrrhic ictory as the war continued through guerilla warfare after Addis Ababa fell in May 5 until WW2. 
According to Spirit vs. War-machine: A Patriotic Resistance to Italian Occupation of Ethiopia (1936-1941): 
"But the Ethiopians were poised to fight back. The Italians indeed controlled the major 
towns, yet they could in no way gain control over the vast Ethiopian countryside where the 
resistance was gathering momentum." 
"Not only was the whole objective 
of their occupation thwarted but also “Never in their quinquennium of rule did the fascists 
feel secure in Ethiopia, and their anxiety came to border on neurosis”." 2601:483:4A80:7A90:F963:D914:33FD:C23 (talk) 04:14, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally wouldn't mind this (German Wikipedia already does something similar), but I'd also be willing to hear other opinions. BeryAb (talk) 20:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

text: I suppose you mean "Italian phyrric victory"? Still, no source give it as such, and the result is certainly fine as it is. A  Phyrric victory is "a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat". I don't see how it applies here. If we were to read the presence of the later Ethiopian resistance in contrast with plainly calling this an Italian victory that would be a flawed logic, since the birth of all rebellious and partisan movements have as their premise the previous victory of the invading country. The thing is that all the sources, including the book you mentioned, treat as two different things (albeit connected in the way I said above) the 1935-1936 second Italo-Ethiopian war (consistently given as an Italian victory) and the subsequent 1936-1941 resistance and guerrilla that merged into the East African front of WW2 (given as a British, Commonwealth, Arbegnoch victory). Not that this second one is not important, but it does not go under the label "second Italo-Ethiopian war" which is what this article covers. Apart from the fact that we'll go OR, we cannot consistently maintain the principle you are advocating for, as we should re-label a vast amount of articles into even more obviously wrong results; for example the East African campaign (World War II) above mentioned would become a "phyrric victory" because of the further subsequent Italian guerrilla war in Ethiopia, postponing the non-phyrric Allied victory to 1943. Or the Battle of France would become a "German phyrric victory" because French resistance began at the end of it. 2A01:E11:17:40B0:A02A:1239:5751:D438 (talk) 05:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pyrrhic Ethiopian Victory + Dates 

message: There has recently been some back-and-forth editing over the end date once again. My understanding is that there is a consensus on the matter here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 148#Second Italo-Ethiopian War. See also Talk:Second_Italo-Ethiopian_War/Archive_1#Ending. Paging , who I know is familiar with these past discussions, in case I'm missing anything. Generalrelative (talk) 18:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Generalrelative, I was not aware of this discussion, but i definetely think the article used to be correct in giving May 1936 before the change occured to February 1937. To be fair, there are discrepancies on the day in which this war ended, but not on the month or year; a majority of authors give 5 May 1935 (Fall of the capital, Emperor fleeing the country, Italy declaring end of the war and annexation), while several give 9 May 1936 (Victor Emmanuel III takes the title of Emperor). I also say this to answer the question of User:Keith-264 on what's the event used here by historians to mark the end of the war. Some classic books on the matter have been quoted in that discussion but even the most recent ones (2023-2024) continue to give 1935-1936; such as "Mussolini, Mustard Gas and the Fascist Way of War: Ethiopia, 1935-1936." by Stephenson and the "Abyssinian Conquest: The History of the Second Italo-Ethiopian War, 1935-1936" by Jowett. Finding a book for the Italo-Ethiopian war of 1935-1937 is basically impossible, they all give 1935-1936. Later events go usually under the term Ethiopian "resistance", guerrilla or similar. Not that is not important, but it just goes under a different label. 2A01:E11:17:40B0:F04F:E2DD:9F4C:2FC7 (talk) 19:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for engaging here. Your argument seems plausible to me. But I'm aware that there's much about this topic that I'm unaware of, which is why I pinged a veteran page watcher. Let's give it some time to see if Indy or anyone else cares to weigh in. Generalrelative (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok.2A01:E11:17:40B0:F04F:E2DD:9F4C:2FC7 (talk) 19:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  End date again