Category talk:Countries and territories where Russian is an official language

message: Should this category be renamed "Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories" (just like "Category:Chinese-speaking countries and territories") since not ALL of the articles that I am categorizing are proper countries (such as the Kaliningrad Oblast, the Crimea, and the various territorial divisions of Georgia, among others)?  --WassermannNYC 13:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename? 

message: Please remove all countries there Russian is not official per :Category:Countries by language criteria. Thanks in advance. IMHO, it was better to create a list with count of native and second-language Russian-language speakers per country instead of meaningless and conflicting category assignments.  --TAG 17:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criteria

message: Some editors (no doubt native/ethnic Estonians unhappy about the long Soviet occpation) keep removing this category from that country's article even though a large number of people living in Estonia still speak Russian and many ethnic Russians live there. Just making that known here... --Wassermann 06:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Similar remark for Lithuania that an IP just removed from this category. Is the category aimed to have only country/territory where Russian is an official language? If it doesn't I think that the number of people speaking Russian in Lithuania is important enough to have it in the category Jmnil 14:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It is not related to unhappiness of Soviet occupation. The category title is unclear. Russian speaking country would mean country where main language is russian. As I have said in several pages. Rename the category to something like: "Countries with russian speaking residents" or something like that. Or offer a better solution for this. Thank you. Suva 13:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I am citing User:3 Löwi current Wiki-logic is that country X belongs to category Y-speaking countries only if Y is an official language in X (otherwise, half of world's countries, incl. Estonia would be "English-speaking") Suva 13:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully understand your logic, but the official language criteria is far too limiting...for instance, many countries don't have an official language or languages. It seems that these "country by language" categories work best when applied to any and all countries, regions, and territories where the particular language is widely used in public spaces and the public arena, and this is obviously the case with the Baltic states and the Russian language owing to the long Soviet occupation. --172.164.80.216 13:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well for cases where there is no official language, then you can use the most widely used language. But in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania there is. Estonia is Estonian speaking country with Russian, Finnish, and English speaking minority. Suva 13:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "...then you can use the most widely used language." YES, exactly correct, and Russian is indeed still a very widely used language in the Baltic countries. I know that this offends many of the native citizens living in those countries (because of the Soviet occupation), but it is a fact and this category deserves to remain in the article on Estonia. --172.164.80.216 13:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Suva's idea of a category with "Countries with russian speaking residents" wouldn't work because then you could include every country on earth as there are "countries with Russian speaking residents" everywhere. "Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories" is not "Category:Countries and territories with Russian as an official language". Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan are all countries where Russian is not an official language, but they are still listed in the "Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories" because (a) There are large populations of Russians. and (b) Most people can speak Russian, as it was the official language of the USSR. Russian cannot be compared to "Category:English-speaking countries and territories" because of its unique status in that all the countries were united under the USSR where Russian was the official language, and the countries have significant Russian populations and Russian speaking residents, which a lot of the countries in "Category:English-speaking countries and territories", do not. Also, Bahrain is in the "Category:English-speaking countries and territories" list even though English is not an official language.--Ilya1166 13:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Two points. Firstly, please read the very first couple of instructive sentences at :Category:Countries by language (the "Category of Categories"). Secondly, and a bit more subtly, your claim that "Russian was the official language of the USSR" is somewhat ambiguous, if not incorrect. Officially, Russian was only an official language, i.e., one of many official languages of the USSR. Cheers, --3 Löwi 14:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Though each of the constituent republics had its own official language, the unifying role and superior status was reserved for Russian.--Ilya1166 14:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Suva, why did you close the mediation case, the case isn't solved, people still agree that the Baltic countries should be included in the list.--Ilya1166 02:55, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What's the point of this category? To list all former Russian colonies? There are many Russian speakers in Germany, US, Canada, France, Finland, etc, so why aren't these countries included? If you don't dare include Germany, you should delete Estonia and Latvia too. Lebatsnok 12:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Estonia and Latvia were deleted, as a consensus was reached throug mediation cabal here Suva 17:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Estonia]] 

message: So I've mentioned that Estonia is continually removed from this category...however, Latvia, Lithuania, and Israel (among others) are also repeatedly removed from this category even though all of those countries have very substantial Russian-speaking minorities (or even majorities). Again, just making note of this here.  --172.164.80.216 13:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am citing User:3 Löwi current Wiki-logic is that country X belongs to category Y-speaking countries only if Y is an official language in X (otherwise, half of world's countries, incl. Estonia would be "English-speaking") Suva 13:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully understand your logic, but the official language criteria is far too limiting...for instance, many countries don't have an official language or languages. It seems that these "country by language" categories work best when applied to any and all countries, regions, and territories where the particular language is widely used in public spaces and the public arena, and this is obviously the case with the Baltic states and the Russian language owing to the long Soviet occupation. --172.164.80.216 13:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well for cases where there is no official language, then you can use the most widely used language. But in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania there is. Estonia is Estonian speaking country with Russian, Finnish, and English speaking minority. Suva 13:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "...then you can use the most widely used language." YES, exactly correct, and Russian is indeed still a very widely used language in the Baltic countries. I know that this offends many of the native citizens living in those countries (because of the Soviet occupation), but it is a fact and this category deserves to remain in the article on Estonia. --172.164.80.216 13:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Suva's idea of a category with "Countries with russian speaking residents" wouldn't work because then you could include every country on earth as there are "countries with Russian speaking residents" everywhere. "Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories" is not "Category:Countries and territories with Russian as an official language". Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan are all countries where Russian is not an official language, but they are still listed in the "Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories" because (a) There are large populations of Russians. and (b) Most people can speak Russian, as it was the official language of the USSR. Russian cannot be compared to "Category:English-speaking countries and territories" because of its unique status in that all the countries were united under the USSR where Russian was the official language, and the countries have significant Russian populations and Russian speaking residents, which a lot of the countries in "Category:English-speaking countries and territories", do not. Also, Bahrain is in the "Category:English-speaking countries and territories" list even though English is not an official language.--Ilya1166 13:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Two points. Firstly, please read the very first couple of instructive sentences at :Category:Countries by language (the "Category of Categories"). Secondly, and a bit more subtly, your claim that "Russian was the official language of the USSR" is somewhat ambiguous, if not incorrect. Officially, Russian was only an official language, i.e., one of many official languages of the USSR. Cheers, --3 Löwi 14:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Though each of the constituent republics had its own official language, the unifying role and superior status was reserved for Russian.--Ilya1166 14:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Suva, why did you close the mediation case, the case isn't solved, people still agree that the Baltic countries should be included in the list.--Ilya1166 02:55, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What's the point of this category? To list all former Russian colonies? There are many Russian speakers in Germany, US, Canada, France, Finland, etc, so why aren't these countries included? If you don't dare include Germany, you should delete Estonia and Latvia too. Lebatsnok 12:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Estonia and Latvia were deleted, as a consensus was reached throug mediation cabal here Suva 17:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Others