Talk:Hann. Münden

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
#Sure. "Hannoversch" is not in common use anymore. Kusma (討論) 08:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: #Sure. "Hannoversch" is not in common use anymore. Kusma (討論) 08:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in support of the move

message: #Strongly oppose Violation of WP:NAME; move target not favored in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in opposition to the move

message: This is, in fact, the essential question: Do you think Hanover should be at Hannover? 
:In that case, local official usage is clearly Hannover and English usage is clearly Hanover. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As mentioned above, "Hannoversch" is a proper noun. Preußisch Oldendorf isn't at Prussian Oldendorf either for the same reason. --doco (☏) 21:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Proper adjective. Very well, do you think Nuremberg should be moved to Nürnberg, which is equally certainly the official name? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nuremberg has a common English name. Hann. Münden hasn't. --doco (☏) 22:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That requires proof, which is not presented.   Please remember that many local names, like Paris or Berlin, are widely accepted in English. Similarly, the English name of Minden is Minden; fixed by the battle. So here, the statistics indicate that Münden is the  English proper name, as in the title of the 1911 Britannica's article on the subject. (This cites Henze: Führer durch Münden und Umwegung (Münden, 1900) so the use of unaccompanied Münden can't be that old, even in German; other book titles suggest it is consistent Wilhelmine usage. Similarly, de:Hann. Münden cites "Helmut Saehrendt: Hannoversch Münden. Wissenswertes aus der Geschichte der Stadt, sehenswertes in der Stadt, Hannoversch Münden 2002. ) The present Britannica's only mention of the place, under Weser River is " Formed near the city of Münden by the union of its two headstreams—the Fulda and the Werra...". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine. The 1911 EB reference you cite is too old. See WP:NCGN where it says that sources should only be considered if they were published in 1993 or later (Obviously, this town has had its name changed in 1990, so try and find a reference to "Hann. Münden" in the 1911 EB - you won't!). The second example you cite is in German anyways, so that's irrelevant for this discussion. Here's a bunch of recent English-language published books backing the use of Hann. Münden as the regularly used name: Adventure Guide to Germany, Hunter Publishing Inc., 2005, Singing Sailors, York University (Toronto, Ont.), 2002, Rust Diseases of Willow and Poplar, CABI Publishing, 2005, The Rough Guide to Germany, Gordon McLachlan, 2004. All of these books are verifiable with Google Books, and I could come up with dozens more if I'd invest more than five minutes of research into this. As neither the EB nor Encarta seem to have proper articles about Hann. Münden, I'm afraid you'll have to accept these as reference for the modern(!) usage of the name and give up on insisting to use the archaic name. --doco (☏) 11:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A parallel case

message: # Encyclopedias (current; although WP:NCGN specifies 1993 because of the boundary changes in Eastern Europe; how this applies to Hanover is beyond me
#*Britannica 5 hits, all Münden
#*Columbia: 3 hits, two Hannoversch-Münden; one Münden 
#*Encarta no hits for this location
# Scholarly seaches. 
#*Scholar.google.com. 161 hits for  Münden without Hann.; 136 hits for "Hann. Münden". All of the first page are street addresses, which WP:NCGN says to disregard. 
#*Books.google.com. This has the problem of limiting to English hits. By including "Hanover" as a likely search term, I get 15 for Hann. Münden, and four of those are still in German; there are 420 for Münden  without Hann., Of those 10 include Hannoversch.
#Histories and country studies.
#*The LC country study for Germany doesn't mention it. 
#News sources
#*Lexis, gives 14 hits; 4 Hann. Münden or Muenden; 3 Hannoversch; 1 Hannoverisches; and 6 plain  Münden 
#*The BBC has one story and it uses Hannoversch Muenden 
:Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
The above data will show that "Hann. Münden" is used in English as often, relatively, as "Nürnburg" is, and in the same sources; hasty newspaper reports, and guidebooks. We should use English: Nuremburg, Hanover and Münden. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Data