Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis

message: Hi all. User:Marcric and I have a disagreement over how to present the titles for Kalinskaya on her infobox. For doubles, based on my interpretation of Template:Infobox tennis biography, which says Singles and Doubles titles, include only titles won on the WTA (women) or the ATP (men) Tour, not the ITF circuit (the tier below), this should simply state '3' as she has won 3 titles at the WTA tour level, and my understanding is that these supersede her WTA Challenger, ITF and junior titles that she may have won. For example, I note that most GA articles don't bother listing ITF or Challenger titles once the player has reached the highest level: Simona Halep, Belinda Bencic, Sofia Kenin, Dayana Yastremska. In fact, with Halep, we don't even bother with the ITF statistics at Simona Halep career statistics, even though we know that she won many at that level in her early days. Same with Beatriz Haddad Maia and Laura Siegemund, both of whom played on the ITF tour for years but we only need to record their WTA titles.
I also think that her singles infobox should just state '1 WTA Challenger' so that it is in line with Kateryna Baindl, Irina Khromacheva and other players whose highest honour is a WTA Challenger singles title and when she inevitably wins a WTA Tour level event, it should just be changed to '1' to be consistent with every other tennis article. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 13:45, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Ana Bogdan hasn't got any WTA titles yet, I think it's fine to list her ITF titles there as they are her highest achievement. Once she wins a WTA tour title, we should stop listing them as it becomes superfluous. In the same way, we never list a player's best junior major results in the infobox after they have started playing at the senior level. To comply with Template:Infobox tennis biography properly, we should only be listing Kalinskaya's highest level achievements and not just an exhaustive title listing in the infobox. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 14:25, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: But that is my point. If we have already defined "the correct way", just point me the discussion and the conclusion, because as I have stated "at this date, each article uses a different pattern". Which is the "correct one": items like image size, titles info, date format and references do not follow any pattern. And if a "pattern" changes if the player get a new level title it is not a pattern. --MarcRic::Ruby (talk) 14:32, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: And make sure to update the career win-loss for singles and doubles to main tour wins-losses only after a player has won their maiden singles/doubles title in the infobox. Qwerty284651 (talk) 14:38, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

text: The guidance here is sufficient. Stats should be for main tour only once they have won their first main tour title. Please note that this also includes players like Caroline Garcia, Aryna Sabalenka, Ekaterina Alexandrova and others so I would ask you politely not to restore the ITF stats on their boxes. User:Fyunck(click) edited here on Maria Sakkari stating Once a player starts winning WTA titles we stop posting the minor league titles in the infobox which is further evidence of consensus. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 14:47, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

text: As an additional note, please stop changing the European date format to American when the player is European, like with this edit to Ana Bogdan, which was correctly reverted by User:Adamtt9. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 14:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

text: Actually that is correct, just like many different types of Wikipedia articles. Per sourcing we use the correct date format depending on nationality. And when a player is only playing in the minor league ITF events, those events are important and their infobox shows that. Once they start winning main tour WTA titles that changes and the minor leagues events (while mentioned in prose) are no longer important enough for the infobox. It's pretty simple and easy to handle so we'd hate to lose an enthusiastic editor. Cheers. One thing of note. When this became the norm, there was no WTA challenger tour so how to handle winning only Challenger and ITF events is new ground. It might be we would include both until such time as a player wind their first WTA main tour title. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem, and You will not "lose" this editor. I am very identified with the character Monk, so it is very difficult for me to work without a pattern to follow (I have 45 patterns in text files defined for different subjects in Wikipedia). And since it is clear that a pattern for tennis players will not be defined for the English Wikipedia, and I don't want to force others into my OCD. So, I will simply abandon my project of standardizing those infoboxes. Regards. --MarcRic::Ruby (talk) 11:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I liked watching Monk. But there actually is a pattern here and it should be consistent. Date formatting per nationality. Show minor league ITF record when playing and winning only ITF events. Once winning starts in the major league WTA or ATP main tours, ITF records are removed. That is what is supposed to be followed here.  Take care. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem, as I said, I disagree with what you consider a "pattern" for the English Wikipedia that changes per nationality and per titles earned, so, from now on, I will not change a comma in those infoboxes. Take care. --MarcRic::Ruby (talk) 20:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Anna Kalinskaya]] infobox dispute 

message: Hello I moved the Spanish Open to Spanish International Championships or Campeonatos Internacionales de España because for nearly all of its existence it was called either the International Championships of Spain from 1904 to 1967 played in San Sebastian, Santander and Barcelona. From 1968 it was permanently played in Barcelona, at the Real Club de Tenis Barcelona under the joint denomination of Spanish International Championships or Campeonatos Internacionales de España and & Trofeo Conde de Godó until 1980 when it was a joint event (as yet no women showing on the Barcelona Open roll. 
The women's tournament was moved to a different date in the calendar, but it was still played at the same venue until 1995 when it was last called the 1995 Ford International Championships of Spain – Singles not Spanish Open. From 1981 to 1995 the women's event did not carry the joint title of Trofeo Conde de Godó only till 1980. Both titles in name were equally weighted. I went through every edition of the Real Club de Tenis Barcelona archive here:https://archivo.rctb1899.es/ The 1968 edition information here;https://archivo.rctb1899.es/edicion-bcnopen/xvi-trofeo-conde-de-godo on the right side under Breaks it says the following ' The Royal Spanish Tennis Federation, on behalf of the International Tennis Federation, grants the Conde de Godó Trophy the category of International Championships of Spain and donates a challenge trophy for the winner of the individual event', and here its the promotional poster; https://archivo.rctb1899.es/sites/default/files/bcn-open-edition/poster/tc_godo_16-1968.jpg 
Now instead the research I had spent hours doing going through year to check and re check the event titles, had been removed in a matter of minutes, some questions need to be asked of the editor who reversed my edits. If the men's and women's International Championships of Spain, which were founded in San Sebastian as a joint event, and played in 1936 in Barcelona at the same venue, clearly the cannot be included in the Barcelona roll before 1968. Their should not have been a problem including the men's Barcelona results as the sources clearly show the Spanish Tennis Association also granted the Conde de Godó Trophy the category title of International Championships of Spain!!. It was made very clear in the tables section this was the case!. If a national tennis federation grants the event a joint title category the men's events from Barcelona should be included here as they carried that title until 2007. as seen here,  the promotional poster states Open Seat 2007 and 55th Trofeo Conde de Godó and 40th Campeonatos Internacionales de España in Barcelona If the original events pages had been properly researched in the first place each Barcelona event from 1968 should be showing the following information Edition No: Trofeo Conde de Godó, Edition No: Campeonatos Internacionales de España and the Edition No: Sponsored Name that year as all three  are shown in the sources provided!! Ive added that info where I have been able to do so with a citation for each page.
For me their is genuine grounds to included rolls in men's tournaments that were in fact combined tournaments for certain periods but for a lot of pages are never showing joint rolls, as the International Championships of Spain was a national event category the men's winners in Barcelona should be in the Spanish International Championships rolls as the event was played in three other cities not just Barcelona. Moving on to the WTA Madrid Open, I have lost my source that confirms that 2000 to 2002 editions also carried the joint title of Campeonatos Internacionales de España as with the Barcelona events. Navops47 (talk) 06:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be me since it wasn't discussed and tennis tournament article merging is a very messy business because the tournament names are very convoluted. The mens event you put in the Spanish Open already has an extensive web presence at the Barcelona Open (tennis) article. This is confirmed at the actual tournament website in their own roll of champions and Trofeo Conde de Godó winners right here. No women mentioned. We don't need two identical articles on the men. As for the women and the name, most times sources call it Barcelona or WTA Barcelona. The WTA pdf simply says Barcelona Spain. We also have a breakdown of event names per Grand Slam History. It was by no means consistent. Sources in 1991 called it the "WTA Seat Open". Sources in 1993 called it the La Familia Open, and did so again in 1994, so I'm not sure about your hours of checking and rechecking. What I went back to is what we originally had the article at and the fact it was the womens event. I even started a talk page discussion that we already have a tournament page for the men with a different name. I'm not saying we can't use the International Championships of Spain (even though it has had multiple name changes), but before we start double dipping on already establish article and throwing in the men, this needs to be discussed. I would have thought at the article talk page where i started it, but here works ok too. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spanish International/Spanish Open 

message: Over the past few top tier tournaments (Madrid, Rome, now French open (1, 2)), there has been a dump of stats in the lead section, because someone stumbled upon them in an article, found them interesting and decided to put it in the lead sections of men's singles, women's singles draw pages. Cited or not we don't just put EVERY stat wr come across in articles because it sounds interesting. Limit it to winners, def champs, someone retiring, battle for no. 1, that's it. We want to keep it short and concise. 
Youngest/oldest/first...born in XYZ decade to reach all (<insert any lower round:4th round, quarterfinals here>) in masters and slams...since...then and then. So much specific records that are pure bloat and balast. Unnecessary. We have every mention of country-related stats (first spaniard/colombian/peruvian) to reach semis of...xyz event...fine.. but the above the examples on all quarters across masters and slam reached....quarters? Well, that's a low round. It's not even finals. And it is becoming a trend, a bad one,..next year more dump is going to be added and pollute the lead section of big tournaments even more because editors usually copy from previous editions when creating the event's draw pages and before you know it it will turn into an essay.
Pinging , who has been adding some of these stats.
The line has to be drawn somewhere. It is getting out of hand. When does it end? Qwerty284651 (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia dump - when does it end?