Talk:Isabeau of Bavaria

message: Why was she called "Isabeau"? I thought the French version of Elisabeth was "Isabelle". --88.72.54.25 (talk) 16:12, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name "Isabeau" 

message: Altering text on the relationship with the duke of Orleans for NPOV. Durova 22:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Affair 

message: I cannot understand why someone doubts Isabella's descent from Arpads. It is true enough and genealogies all show the same, without any contention. See for example  and other pages there. Maria bore Eleanor of Anjou-Sicily who bore Isabella/Elisabeth of Aragon-Sicily who bore Stephen III of Bavaria who sired this Isabella, who was baptized as her Sicilian grandmother's namesake. Maed 03:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't doubt her descent from the Arpads, I doubt the detail which appears here concerning Elizabeth, Maria Arpad of Hungary's mother, and not at the page on Maria herself. If it is verifiable, it should appear there; if it isn't, it shouldn't appear here. The website mentioned says Maria's Cuman grandfather was called Zayhan. See what I mean ? Angus McLellan  (Talk) 15:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. be kindly very specific in the future when asking for citations. The facts are verifiable enough: Maria's mother was called Elisabeth when queen (no idea whether she had an earlier Cuman first name, it is possible, though perhaps not important here). That Elisabeth was daughter of a Cuman chieftain, who and whose tribe were driven to Hungary due to incursion of Mongols to wgat is now Ukraine. The chief's Cuman name is rendered variably: Kuten, Kuthen, Zayhan, etc. Elements are same: K sometimes close to Z, u/(a)y, th/t/h, e/a, ends always with -n. Probably you understand some things about rendition of medieval odder names, from immigrant languages, when even languages through which renditions take place, evolve in pronunciation (k becomes s or somesuch - as in Latin). The Cuman chief, though sort of exle, was important enough in feudal Hungary that the then king allied with him (and several loyal magnates) in pursuits to keep other, restless, Hungarian magnates in some order. Alliance was sealed through marriage of their two children. Cumans had a specific culture compared to Hungarians: some (possibly biased) sources accuse them of licentiouness and abetting several vices. How surprising. How nationalistic and xenophobous. Among native Hungarians, resentment was present, and both Elisabeth's husband and son later as kings faced accusations based on their "Cuman" habits and even paganism. The son, Ladislas IV, was nicknamed as "the Cuman", and pope declared a war/crusade against him sometime in 1280's, using alleged pagan habits as excuse. Cuman tribe is sort of Kipchak people. The page about Maria's family: []. I have not very much against, if you wish to burden this page with different renditions of the chief's name, though I would rather suggst that they are presented in his own page or at least nearer there, and only one variant used in this article. Maed 22:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  From Maria of Hungary 

message: I've reinstated this for two reasons: 1., because Rachel Gibbon's research is quite good and she's a reputable scholar; 2., because it becomes important later in regards to how Isabeau was treated in the chronicles of the time and the ways in which her name was used. I have the material to develop those points, based on Tracy Adams' book (listed in the sources), but am at the moment too busy to finish developing. There will be a large expansion of this page though, in the near future. Truthkeeper (talk) 16:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand the point, but it should be rephrased. Her name naturally went from Elisabeth to the French version of the same name. When, for example, Piroska of Hungary married the Byzantine emperor, her name was changed to Irene. That was a name change. In Isabeau's case, it was merely a "translation" of the name. For example, Isabella of Austria started using the Danish "Elisabet" upon marriage, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is known as Isabel by Hispanophones, etc. Surtsicna (talk) 09:30, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  For consistency let's put it back to Isabeau throughout, and leave out the name change sentence. I'll add something about it when I flesh out the section about the civil wars, her relationship with the Burgundians and the anti-Isabeau propaganda. I haven't finished researching this material yet either, so best to let it be until then. As you say, it might not be necessary. Truthkeeper (talk) 11:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name change to Isabeau 

message: You have the potential for a very good hook in the lead, at the moment it reads "it resulted in the disastrous event known as Bal des Ardents". Needs to be explained and drawn out. I lkeave a few hints at the drama, to get people to want to read more. Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead needs to be rewritten - I've added quite a lot since I wrote it and still more to be added. Feel free to have a go at it if you'd like - I always have trouble with leads and so wait until the end to write them. Truthkeeper (talk) 12:48, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Grand, might just do that. Put on my Brit tabloid sub editor hat, and go with it :) Its great to see so much work here though, really enjoying seeing the page develop. Ceoil (talk) 12:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small thing 

message: "Under the terms of the Treaty, Henry V's son, at that time only 9 months old, was named heir to the French throne. The infant, with the Duke of Bedford his regent, would be raised as French in Paris and ascend the throne on Charles VI's death. Isabeau was to live in English controlled Paris." The articles about the treaty and Henry V contradict this. They say Henry V was heir designate and Henry VI ascended because Henry V predeceased his father-in-law. Which is it? Surtsicna (talk) 23:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll re-read to make sure it's not wrong. I haven't looked at the other articles. BTW - just a head's up, but I'll be putting back the lead image. It's important to show that she was depicted in art through the centuries, as is also shown in Murasaki Shikibu and the Christine Pizan image seems best to work in the section about Pizan. No reason to have the same image twice. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:42, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Adding: I've re-read the source and I'd like to keep this as it is because this is a biography of Isabeau and not of Charles VI, Charles VII, Henry V or Henry VI where I think the specific details are more relevant. What's relevant here is that she went with her husband, signed, and later lived in English occupied territory. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:49, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I remain convinced that a contemporary depiction would be a much better choice for the lead image, with the fantasy portrait from the 19th century being suited for the Reputation and legacy section. That part of the article actually discusses how she was seen "in the 18th and 19th centuries". There is room there for two images, though the one that is already there is a bit irrelevant. As for the treaty, I have to disagree more strongly. No matter whose biography this is, it should not present factually incorrect information to the readers, especially if it is going to be featured on the main page. If the details are irrelevant, they should be removed rather than distorted into inaccuracy. Surtsicna (talk) 16:09, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

text: More problems with the paragraph: it claims that "Isabeau accompanied Charles to sign the Treaty of Troyes in May 1420" and that, "under the terms of the Treaty, Henry V's son, at that time only 9 months old, was named heir to the French throne". Henry V's son had not even been born yet. Henry VI was born in December 1421, a year and a half after the treaty was signed. In addition to correcting this grave mistake, we should also note the relationship between Isabeau and the two kings of England. It is important to note that they were not random strangers; Henry VI was Isabeau's grandson. Surtsicna (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It won't be featured on the main page. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:04, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just noticed your response at the nomination talk page. I hope you will not give up on bringing it to FA quality. Surtsicna (talk) 17:16, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It fails WP:WIAFA on two counts: prose and it's no longer stable, so no sense in continuing at this point. Last night I went back through the sources re the Treaty and all I'd change is the that the treaty was secured w/ the marriage. Charles, at that time, was still living and retained the crown. I needed to work earlier today and when I came to fix, it had been changed, so let's leave it as it is for now. The Treaty of Troyes is uncited and is the place for the details, and at some point I might tackle that, and then return here for a full clarification based on sources. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Treaty of Troyes 

message: "Miniature showing King Charles VI at the hunt. Queen Isabeau and her retinue are shown riding palfreys. Possibly from Enguerrand de Monstrelet's Chronique." - don't we know one way or the other? Commons seems clear it is, & there is a chunk of text that must be identifiable. Also it looks to me more like another pic of his first attack on his courtiers, as there is no animal shown, & they seem to be walking along a road rather than hunting. Johnbod (talk) 16:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it is Monstrelet, and fixed. The description mentions (in German) at the hunt, and I'm inclined to believe that. The miniatures I've seen of the attack show him in armour as it occurred during a campaign - or rather on the way to a campaign. Thanks for noticing, and I'll dig into a bit more to pin down. Adding: accessing the digital libraries in foreign language universities is a bit harrowing, but I do think we need a better source link for this. I found some at Leiden, but not this particular one. Will look more later. Victoria (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

text: *More: the file claims it's from the Musée Condé but I'm not finding it in their online collection; nor can I find it on the source link provided on Commons. Bridgeman art has a copy of it but I seem to have lost access to Commons with my name change, so not quite sure what to do about this. Victoria (talk) 21:13, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: I think the ancestry table really ought to be referenced somehow, especially since a few of the ancestors don't have their own articles. Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 08:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks  for pointing that out. My inclination is to agree with you. That table was in the article before I rewrote it, I never paid it much attention, and I have to admit that I don't know what the convention is for these tables. Perhaps we could truncate it so only a few generations are shown? Would that work? Victoria (tk) 18:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Victoria, sorry for not getting back to you. I am not sure what the precedent is, but I gather that it is best to have all the ancestors reliably sourced per WP:V. Her parents are already sourced in the article, but her other ancestors ought to be referenced in the table itself. I guess truncating it would not be a problem  - leaving the grandparents or great-grandparents would be fine, depending on how easy it is to find sources. A great article, regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 11:43, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancestry table 

message: The Francophones spiking English wikis again. Sigh.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.162.35 (talk) 03:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  In English she is known as: Isabella of Bavaria 

message: I see that you're undertaking a top-to-bottom copy edit. Copyedits are always appreceitated, but because this is what's called a Wikipedia:Featured article it has to adhere to Wikipedia's WP:Manual of Style and it has to adhere to the sources cited. Sometimes, when copyediting, the meaning a sentence can inadvertently be changed so that it no longer reflects the source cited. I've seen a few instance of that happening, though haven't reviewed all the edits. If misalignment occurs between text and cited sources, then it will need repairing. Equally if Manual of style issues - small things such as linking more than once in an article or changing the style of dashes - it needs repairing. Just posting here so you know. Victoria (tk) 00:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent edits