Talk:John Zachman

message: The two links in the External Links section appear to be more about the Zachman Framework than about John Zachman. Should they be removed?
Phogg2 (talk) 15:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes.  I've removed them as off-topic.  Good call. --Ronz (talk) 16:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scott Ambler Link 

message: :You are talking about "variations and interpretations of the framework that John Zachman originated and continues to have ownership over..."
:Now we are talking about the Simplified VA Zachman Framework, see image. I traced the source of this image to:
:* Source = VA’s Enterprise Architecture
:* Author = Al Zuech, Director, Enterprise Architecture Service at the US Department of Veterans Affairs. 
:* Date = Feb 15 2002
:Now you have already stated, that: "These are extracts from the ORIGINAL Framework not done by us nor certified by us. It would not be a certified elaboration of the published Framework standards. It was done by someone in Veteran's Affairs for their internal use. It does not accurately represent the concepts as we presently understand them.". 
:Do you mean John Zachman continues to have ownership over of this work by Al Zuech in 2002 employee of the US VA? 
:And what about the TEAF images from 2000, does he continu to own them as well? 
File:TEAF Matrix of Views and Perspectives.jpg|9. TEAF Matrix of Views and Perspectives.
File:Framework for EA Direction, Description, and Accomplishment Overview.jpg|10. Framework for EA Direction, Description, and Accomplishment Overview.
File:TEAF Products.jpg|11. TEAF Products.
File:TEAF Work Products for EA Direction, Description, and Accomplishment.jpg|12. TEAF Work Products for EA Direction, Description, and Accomplishment.
:And what about the other developments within the VA department, does John Zachman continue to own those images as well. 
File:Integrated Process Flow for VA IT Projects.jpg|18. Integrated Process Flow for VA IT Projects (2001)
File:VA Zachman Framework Portal.jpg|19. VA Zachman Framework Portal
File:VA EA Repository Introduction.jpg|20. VA EA Repository Introduction (2008)
File:VA EA Meta-Model Cell Details.jpg|23. VA EA Meta-Model Cell Details.
:Now Zachman and the US VA have worked together. In 2001 John Zachman spent for example several weeks working with the VA AE-One team, see here. The image must have been a result of their cooperation one way or an other. Now I wonder if there was a contract between the them, that the fruit of their cooperation remained the copyright of John Zachman. This sounds highly unlikely. 
:Now if you look to the VA’s Enterprise Architecture presentation it is clear that, the image of the Zachman Framework on page 3 is copyrighted by Zachman. The other sheets are work by an US government employee and there are at least a dozen differences between that copyrighted Zachman Framework and the image here. As far as I know copyright doesn't last if you create an whole different image, with multiple differences. 
:-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ownership or Public Domain 

message: Phogg2 has made it quite clear Zachman international is not happy with the current illustration of the simplified 2002 VA Zachman Framework. Removing that image isn't an option for me, because it's a fine illustration of an applied Zachman Framework at the US Departement of Veteran Affairs, and made by the US Departement of Veteran Affairs 
Now we all agree this is not the work of John Zachman himself. So a solution here could be, to replace that image with the non-free use media :File:ZFArticlePages.jpg, which is made by John Zachman himself, allready used in the Zachman framework article. This image is allready present in Wikipedia. We only need to add an other non-free use media rationale at that image, and if nobody else has great objection, we can go for it. 
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 01:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In the mean time their are a dozen other images of the Zachman Framework, which could even be a better option. Wikipedia doesn't normally allow non-free use media, when alternatives are present. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

text: Ok, I have replace the image here, with a non-free/fair use image of the original. I can't promise other Wikipedians will respect this compromise. The use of none free images is very limited if other alternatives are possible. I guess this would please John Zachman as well. Did you happen to see the new historic overview of the frameworks development in the Zachman International website, here. I can't help thinking that overview is inspired on the discussion we have been having here regarding the need to show the development of the framework? The 1984 version stuck me as a surpise. Cheers. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compromise 

message: I can explain some more. The manual of style states:  
:The opening paragraph should give:
:#Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles));
:#Dates of birth and death, if known (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death);
:#Nationality –
:##In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. (Note: There is no consensus on how to define nationality for people from the United Kingdom, which encompasses constituent countries. For more information, please see the essay "Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom" and the talk page archives.)
:##"Ethnicity" should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.
:#What the person did;
:#Why the person is significant.
Now the current opening paragraph is the one line:
:John A. Zachman is an American computer scientist, Chief Executive Officer of Zachman International, known as originator of the Zachman Framework proposed in 1987. 
Now your propose:
:John A. Zachman is the originator of the Zachman Framework for Enterprise Architecture 
This alternative doesn't state:
# Date of birth
# Nationality
# What the person did
Your proposal only mentions "Why the person is significant". And personally I think his proposal of the Zachman Framework is just one of his accomplishments. He is also considered to be founder of the field of enterprise architecture.
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manual of style 

message: reads like an advertisement  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.35.82.136 (talk) 00:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  content/style 

message: Zachman has repeatedly claimed that his framework is based on "two historical classifications", and many other sources repeat this claim. Therefore the claim is indisputably notable. However the claim itself is as far as I know unsubstantiated and has been challenged by many people including myself. The first classification seems to be based on a linguistic curiosity of the English language (which has existed for less than a thousand years) and is not universally supported by other languages. The second classification is based on a questionable notion of reification. Although Plato and Aristotle were interested in the relationship between the transient real and the unchanging ideal, the concept of reification was introduced much later e.g. to deal with the Problem of universals. Furthermore, Zachman's use of the word "reification" is non-standard, although there are hints of this use in the works of ibn Arabi. It is difficult to see any link between the works of these philosophers and the way "reification" is used by Zachman, and I therefore regard Zachman's claim as spurious. I think it is reasonable to quote Zachman's claim, either in this article or in the ZF article, but there should also be some indication that his claim is disputed. RichardVeryard (talk) 20:12, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two Historical Classifications