Talk:Serenity Prayer

message: Has anyone ever made a claim to ownership or copyright of any version of the Serenity Prayer?  I have read that Niebuhr never did, but of course the version purported to be his is different from the version put forth by today's 12-step programs.
This version of prayer is surely in the public domain, right?
    God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    courage to change the things I can,
    and the wisdom to know the difference. 
Thanks for your attention,
Bluerasberry (talk) 16:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Under the DMCA, all work published in the US after 1923 is under copyright.  As such, The Serenity Prayer is not in the Public Domain.  jonathon (talk) 20:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ownership of Serenity Prayer

message: I can find no evidence that Niebuhr was ever associated with the "Confessing Church" of German protestants during the Nazi era, nor the "Confessing Movement" of very conservative protestants here in the USA.
----
We accept things, not because we agree with what is done to us, but to free ourselves from resentments.  It is for purely personal reasons.  If someone wrongs me, I accept that there is nothing I can do to change the past and nothing I can do to change the kind of person he is.  I accept not for any benifit to him but simply to give myself peace of mind.  I can however change my thoughts, behaviors, and actions, regarding the way I react to harms that are done to me.  207.157.121.50 07:36, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: General discussion

message: I find it interesting that the Serenity Prayer origin at Alcoholics Anonymous predates the claim here. Any comments? Rfrisbietalk 16:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have now thoroughly documented the origin of the prayer. The earlier version of this page was an amazing mess of urban myth and total confusion. Some of it was even comic: the page included the demonstrably false claim that F. C. Oetinger wrote the prayer - and cited as an authority for this a German page that demonstrates that F. C. Oetinger did NOT write the prayer! (The editor who added this obviously was not able to understand the German page.) SerenityPrayer 14:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  SP origin 

message: Olivia Newton-John's album "Stronger than Before" has a very nice extended version of the Serenity Prayer on the last track called "Serenity".
:Have added it on the basis of this report. Macspaunday 16:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything after "the difference" is not by Niebuhr, but seems to have been added sometime after the prayer began circulating. The 1926 date is definitely wrong. The full story is in Elisabeth Sifton's book cited on the main page. Macspaunday 16:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unlisted Allusion 

message: The spurious accounts section describes Boethius as a "stoic philosopher." Stoic should be capitalized, but I don't believe Boethius was a Stoic. The Wikipedia article on Boethius describes him as a Christian philosopher. rkharrison
:Quite right. Done. Macspaunday 18:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boethius 

message: I found this here
http://skdesigns.com/internet/articles/prose/niebuhr/serenity_prayer/
Where they talk about many people researching this, but they have references to books, etc. about the prayer and that his 'daughter' even has the 'full prayer' on a page in her book.
I was wondering if you guys could look into this and see if any of this may be needed or added to the article.
Thanks much!  Ariyen (talk) 12:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Interesting Notation/Site 

message: The article previously indicated that early usages were from women with no church affiliation, with the implication that such usages were distant from Niebuhr's circles. However, it then went on to say that the first known usage was by a woman who worked for the YWCA. Though the YWCA is not associated with any particular church within Christianity, it is an organization with strong religious ties (especially at that time) and the statement is thus misleading - doubly so since Niebuhr frequently lectured at the YWCA. I have removed the clause about no church affiliation for this reason; if someone wants to rewrite, clarify and replace it, I have no objection. hgilbert (talk) 17:42, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with taking it out. When I added the part about the YWCA/YMCA and Detroit, I did not want to give it undue weight by also removing the "no apparent church affiliation" statement from the previous edit. What that phrase actually means, I think, is that the prayer was being quoted in non-church contexts. Even that isn't entirely true, because one pre-1943 example was from a Sunday School column. Rose bartram (talk) 12:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Church affiliation of early mentions 

message: It would be helpful to have a section documenting the secular versions. However, these cannot merely appear on blogs and websites, but should have appeared in print and achieved some formal recognition. In addition, we should be careful about terminology; the formulation is secular, not atheist, as they avoid the question of a deity rather than deny its existence.
Finally, as far as I can understand, any formulation that includes the word "Grant..." is implicitly calling upon a higher power. I'm open to alternatives here but can't see any off-hand.
The section should be re-written addressing these concerns - including verifiable references. hgilbert (talk) 19:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Kenyonsf requested informal arbitration from WP:MEDCAB on this issue, specifically asking for a third opinion about the standards required for citing "words of wisdom".  I have provided the requested opinion in the case here. I'll keep an eye on that page, and this page, to see if anyone has questions or would like further mediation on the topic.  In a nutshell: Yes, citations are required; yes, the version most recently posted has issues; however, some previously rejected cited versions may be acceptable with relatively minor edits to the article. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 21:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secular 

message: Why is the extended version included at the top of the article without any mention of where that version came from?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.164.210 (talk) 04:25, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The extended version seems to me to be very modern, and should be put into its own section, rather than looking like the original is a condensation. And there's no attribution. htom (talk) 01:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed the present presentation is rather biased. There is more than one extended version circulating. So why give this version this special status? It is surely not by Niebuhr. It should be cited later on and with reference.Imeanit (talk) 13:34, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended Version Attribution? 

message: Any chances that the prayer might have been used by Native Americans as a girlfriend of mine thought - my first encounter with it was a post-it on her wall quoting it as such. It started in that version with 'Great spirit' and not God. (It might have been used by Karl May in Winnetou, I guess, but it could come from Sitting Bull...)
It's the Cherokee Serenity Prayer according to the listing of 10 American Indian Prayers at  http://www.manataka.org/page1449.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PieterJansegers (talk • contribs) 16:37, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any record of it being used by the Cherokees before it became known through Niebuhr? It has spread in many directions since the mid-1930s. hgilbert (talk) 19:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native American origin claims 

message: A recent edit changed
:...Niebuhr wrote the prayer for use in a sermon, perhaps as early as 1934.
to
:...Niebuhr included the prayer in written form in a sermon in 1943.
I am not sure what "included the prayer in written form" is supposed to mean.  Does this mean that he had his own personal written notes? that the sermon was distributed in written form in 1943?  The whole paragraph is rather unclear, but this passage is especially unclear.... --Macrakis (talk) 22:31, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Written form wording

message: Where is the resemblance to Thomas More's prayer? Merely that the latter asks God's help to mend his ways? This is common to many prayers. hgilbert (talk) 13:00, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  More 

message: This article is incoherent. It starts by stating that the earliest known written version of the Serenity Prayer was in 1943, then later refers to documentation back to 1936.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.36.3.19 (talk) 02:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, documentation of oral versions. hgilbert (talk) 02:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

text: Would it be prudent to denote earliest oral vs written examples of the prayer? Would that be more satisfactory to maintaining a coherent timeline? Not sure what can be done about the other issues raised. DaxSudo (talk) 00:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Is Contradictory 

message: The article as it stands now says that the version listed here is the "best-known form." I'd like to dispute that!
A Google search for "and the wisdom to know the difference" has 4.7 million hits, while a search for "and wisdom to know the difference" (no 'the') nets only 3,190,000 results. Which leads me to believe that the actual best-known version includes the 'the.' Kind of nitpicky, but I think it's worth changing. What do y'all think?
Babylonian007 (talk) 21:01, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Best-known form - "the wisdom" vs "wisdom" 

message: The section is currently a mess thrown into a paragraph. Should I reorganize it into a bulleted list sorted by media type (i.e. song, book, movie, etc.), or is this against Wikipedia's guidelines? EpicWolverine (talk) 19:32, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Go for it. HGilbert (talk) 23:45, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Done in this edit. EpicWolverine (talk) 18:15, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the "Cultural use" Section 

message: The attribution to Reinhold Niebuhr now appears to be solid, see the latest evidence from Fred Shapiro.  I'm tied up over the next few days, but perhaps someone can edit the article accordingly.  John M Baker (talk) 21:45, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch! I've added some material, but the chronology needs reordering now. HGilbert (talk) 02:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attribution to Niebuhr 

message: Since this is an unreferenced section that duplicates previous contents (that themselves contain references) in the same article, I am removing it. (I'll add a header to the relevant section so that it is clear such information exists). — Safety Cap (talk) 15:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recovery Use 

message: >Take it to the talk page instead of edit warring.
Whose? Yours? Oh wait, it is locked.
(Also: I should think that 'edit warring' is violation of 3RR, but what do I know.)
As I said, the Buddhist quote is not only irrelevant (because, as I said, it only recommends passivity, 'accept everything', as well as doesn't state the importance of *discriminating* what one can and cannot do, which is an integral part of the prayer and arguably the most important one), it is OR. The sources given in the Precursors section are primary, and don't state the correspondence between the prayer and the 'precursors'. Thus, it should be removed.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.43.0.178 (talk) 16:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems a valid inclusion under Precursors, but without claiming it to be "similar," which is as you say unsourced. I have modified the text appropriately. HGilbert (talk) 21:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: HGilbert's solution is acceptable to me. And anon 178, read WP:EW to discover that edit warring isn't exclusively defined as violation of 3RR. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Serenity_Prayer&diff=666039210&oldid=666039133 Buddhist 'alternative'] 

message: Are there any verifiable sources on the authorship of Solomon ibn Gabirol? The References section lists "'Choice of Emeralds' (Chapter 17 'Consciousness' 2nd verse)" as source, but I cannot find any hint for the existence of a book by that name. Theuberger (talk) 11:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a mistake for "Choice of Pearls," which is probably ibn Gabirol's best-known work.  This translation on Google Books uses a different translation:  "Intellectual pre-eminence consists in discriminating between the probable and improbable, and being reconciled to the uncontrollable."  However, the translation in our article is found in many places on the Internet, mostly without reference to the Serenity Prayer or our article, so it's likely from some published translation.  John M Baker (talk) 15:11, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hgilbert has added it on 10 August 2013, maybe he can advise about his source. --FordPrefect42 (talk) 16:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Disastrous not to note the original source of this citationwhen I first added this...I was doing research on the provenance of the prayer at the time and looked at many sources...feel free to update as needed. HGilbert (talk) 17:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've changed "Choice of Emeralds" to "Choice of Pearls," but it would be nice to get a proper cite to the particular translation.  John M Baker (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Precursors 

message: As much of the article was written at a time when there was considerable uncertainty about the prayer's authorship, an uncertainty that has now been laid to rest, I have extensively revised the corresponding sections to reflect the current situation. I hope that nothing important has been lost; please do improve on my attempt to bring this up to date! HGilbert (talk) 13:56, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extensive revision 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Can anyone explain the timeline:
* The preamble states "Niebuhr... used it ... as early as 1934"
* The Early history section states "The earliest recorded reference ... is a diary entry from 1932 ... attributing it to Niebuhr"
* A research (http://ourspecial.net/misc/sereneoetinger.htm) points out a text in German on a building from 1849, and refers to a witness who has confirmed the German version as early as some time between 1920 and 1930. 
The latter also alludes that Niebuhr father was a German pastor who highly likely was familiar with the German version of the text, and could have passed it to his son. While such statement is hard to verify the research provides another proof which is quite easy to verify: a quotation of Niebuhr himself printed in a journal the WP article recognises as a major and undisputable source (Grapevine, January 1950) as saying the prayer “might have been spooking about for years, perhaps centuries.” 
How many centuries have passed after the alleged creation in the 1930's? Or should one accept that the alleged author was talking about centuries before he became familiar with the concept?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.126.5.54 (talk) 17:17, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time machine anyone? 

message: This article begins by stating "Niebuhr, who first wrote the prayer for a sermon at Heath Evangelical Union Church in Heath, Massachusetts, used it widely in sermons as early as 1934."  Not a single word of that is true.  The Heath sermon is firmly dated as 1943 by the Niebuhr family.  Niebuhr may have originated the Serenity Prayer, but no one has ever found any evidence that he used it in sermons in the 1930s.
:Read the citation given for the statement, which explains the discrepancy clearly. Clean Copytalk 15:24, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing out the misinterpretation of your article. I have made some minor changes to the text of the article to reflect what you say. Please feel free to improve the wording further. --Macrakis (talk) 00:27, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erroneous Statement at Beginning of This Article 

message: Do we know when the name "Serenity Prayer" was first applied to this prayer? The earliest use of that name that I've found is in the A.A. Grapevine 12 (1955), p. 28 . --Macrakis (talk) 00:30, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of name

message: This article is still a mess. It states that the earliest printed reference is from 1936, whereas in fact there are 6 known printed references from 1933. It states that Elisabeth Sifton was once quoted as saying the prayer originated in 1943, whereas in fact she maintained that false legend many, many times.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:192:100:CA40:74FD:4C9C:F723:B731 (talk) 12:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Article Is Still a Mess 

message: In her book entitled "The Serenity Prayer," the daughter of Reinhold Niebuhr,  Elisabeth Sifton, gives the prayer verbiage that she says is the first version. 
"God grant me the grace to accept with serenity those things which I cannot change,"  prayer continues similarly, with the last line saying to help me to "know the one from the other." As in the one(s) I "am able to change" and "those I am not able to change."
In a moment of serendipity, I stood in front of the book several years ago in the public library in Metairie, Louisiana. 
I am grateful for discovering this treasure.
All versions of our beloved Serenity Pray are valid & useful, especially in Al-Anon and Alcoholics Anonymous, twelve-step recovery programs.
Gina Randazzo 6/4/2022
I do not know the format to include a copy of the book cover or of the prayer included in the book. This is a link to the book- will edit: 
the-serenity-prayer-faith-and-politics-in-times-of-peace-and-war_elisabeth-sifton/432821/#edition=3503467&idiq=279593 2600:100D:B155:3A33:6890:D3D8:24CB:84C4 (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  God Grant me the Grace