Talk:Dalmatian language

message: This article states that Tuone Udaina, the last known speaker of the Dalmatian language, died at age 77.  The Tuone Udaina page here on Wikipedia states he was 74.  Which is correct?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.237.61.10 (talk) 17:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tuone Udaina age at death 

message: Question: is Bartoli's work available on the net, or sections of it. Alexander 007 07:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it is not, although the German version is in public domain. Bogdan | Talk 10:06, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bartoli on the net 

message: What's the scoop on this. Are there old Dalmatian words in Croatian, or other linguistic influences on neighboring or nearby Slavs. Alexander 007 07:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dalmatian influence on Croatian, etc. 

message: Not that I'm questioning the idea, but I'm trying to find out how much certainty there is behind the statement that the romance Dalmatians were Roman colonists, and not a Romanized population. Even a lack of known substratum words may not be conclusive. Alexander 007 02:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My (single, for the moment) source, Pavle Ivic, points out historical records.  Would you like me to check and see if he cites any? --VKokielov 04:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be cool. I'm skeptical of things often stated in Wikipedia, and my skepticism doesn't imply that I believe a given statement to be true or false. Until verified, I consider such statements somewhere in-between. Alexander 007 19:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just checking 

message: I changed the term under "influences," because, if we're consistent, it turns out that there couldn't have been a Croatian language when there was no Croatian people.  To put it a little more pragmatically, it doesn't look very good to talk about Croatian here.  Plus to be specific never hurts...
Yes, of course this has to do with the language argument in Yugoslavia.  But if we start infecting history with that argument, goodness - when do we stop? --VKokielov 04:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, while there's argument with regard to whether there were Croatian people in Ragusa, there can be little doubt as to their existence in Zara and Veglia - at least I've yet to see a single reference of non-Croat Slavs in those areas. I agree that a claim that all those dialects are to be called "Croatian language" is stretched, but to state that "there was no Croatian people" is quite incorrect as a rationale. --Joy [shallot] 09:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're all in a position to influence me.  Especially since all this literature is old.  Whenever you don't sound out of your mind - which in tvoje case is never - I listen to you.  I checked again.  There was a nationality to identify with, but not in any modern sense...is what I wanted to say. Anyway, what bothered me was that Croatian, Serbian, and, um, their smaller cousins were all created (like Serbo-Croatian) and appropriated relatively recently.  Before that -- this is my impression from my sources -- no one really knew what to call the language spoken all over the territory because the Mean Big Europeans and the Nasty Turks wouldn't let most of ex-Yugoslavia develop and keep an identity.  Which was the rule in feudalistic society anyway, so it isn't surprising... --VKokielov 16:28, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Croatian"-->.... 

message: I deletted that statement because it's not true, Dalmatian never shared the palatalization of the group /-kt-/ as in western romance, but turned it into /-pt-/as in Romanian v.g.: L. octo > Sp. ocho, Fr. huit, Port. oito, but Rom. opt, Dalmatian guapto, the plural of nouns according to the Pater Noster version showed here was vocalic, as in Italian and Romanian, and not adding -s or -es as in western romance languages proper.
:The article has it listed as Italo-Western Romance, but :Image:IndoEuropeanTreeA.svg has it listed as Eastern Romance. I'm not really sure. — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 19:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dalmatian closer to western romance? 

message: I have removed a paragraph describing "Korzulot", which User:195.194.240.65 claims is a Dalmatian language which has survived into the present day. A cursory check proves this to be untrue and the dialect to be nonexistant. Dewrad 08:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Korzulot 

message: Is Dalmatian Eastern or Western Romance? Nergaal (talk) 18:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (posted this above, too) The article has it listed as Italo-Western Romance, but :Image:IndoEuropeanTreeA.svg has it listed as Eastern Romance. I'm not really sure. — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 19:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most probably neither, something between. Zenanarh (talk) 11:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Bartoli Dalmatian language "lexicon" kept characteristically Latin element, but there was also perceptible affinity towards Romanian language (Eastern Romance). Bartoli also noted Latin elements from Albanian and Sardinian, comparing it to South-Italian speeches (Puglia and Abruzzo). Thesis from Bartoli's "Das Dalmatishe" were accepted in scientifical circles but not without dispution. Eminent linguist Clement Merlo considered that Dalmatian language was closer to Ladin: "That is a ring, one of the first links towards west, a link on a chain connecting Ladins and Romanians, from whom only beginnings or last links are saved. All together it makes a ring, a chain which was stretched across Dalmatia to other sides" (Veglioto e ladino, Milano, 1910.). All together it seems it was something between, both western and eastern elements involved. Zenanarh (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Romance Language

message: OK, in order to restore some kind of consistency to the naming conventions in the article, and in order to appease our oddly doctrinaire anti-Italian Balkan contributor, might I suggest that we simply forgo any place-names aside from the current Croatian ones? Dewrad (talk) 07:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Dewrad (talk) 14:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balkan appeasement 

message: Mate Suić: «O imenu Zadra», Zadar Zbornik, Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1964 ("About the Name of Zadar")
Page 96:
Concerning the name of Zadar it can be surely stated that it was not of neither Croatian, neither Romance, neither Latin ancestry, it originated in ancient pre-Roman ages... Finished formats of Zadar name were found in the writings of Antique writers and in the inscriptions of the same periods, then later in Medieval documents as Jader, Jadera, Jadra (Iader, Iadera, Iadra) and other graphic and fonetic variances. From this format, the name for ethnicon (name of the habitant) was developed in Antique – Jadestini (Iadestini). Without suffixes there is a basical element (root) iad- the oldest name of Zadar. According to the geographic incidences of that root, it can be stated that it was found mostly in the ethnic territory populated by ancient Illyrians...Author now discuss about the element adr- and finds it in the Illyrian territory but also it can be found somewhat wider. In summary originating of the name of Zadar should be found in much older past, in pre-Illyrian ages, and it should be concerned as one of those numerous names that ancient Mediterranean population left over across all Mediterranean coasts.
...Therefore toponim Jader(a) / Iader(a) can be considered as Illyrian at the same degree as modern format Zadar is considered to be Croatian, since confidently  Jader (Iader) was Illyrianized format of some older toponimy, of unknown initial format.
Page 102-104:
There was one more phonetic change of the name in the early-Medieval, initial J- became Z-, which was a characteristic of old-Dalmatian Romance language… That change supposed to occur very early because it was reflected in Croatian name of the city too...
...name of the habitants of Medieval Zadar with graphy Jaderani, found in the legend about St. Krševan, as thought from 9th century… must be accented that format Jaderani, spoken Zad(e)rani by domestic population of 9th century, cannot be separated from initial old-Slavic format Zadъrane, from which ethnicity Zadrani was developed.
M.Suić: Prošlost Zadra – knjiga 1 “Zadar u starom vijeku”, Zadar, 1981. (History of Zadar – book 1 “Zadar in ancient ages”), page 113:…Ethnicity Iadestinus (pl. Iadestini) was made of frequent formant in Illyrian language –st- which was found together with vocals –i- and –a- , also very possible in the name of Antique Zadar people, if they were hidden behind the name Ίαδαστινοί, from a Greek inscription from Salona in the 1st half of 1st century BC. Ethnicity was ended with suffix –ino which was also often found in the territory populated by Illyrians.
Very important is that accent was on the first syllable in both forms Iader and Iadera, which influenced the early-Medieval Romance form Jadra, from which in addition were developed the names of the city in Croatian and Italian language, where accent kept its original place. Jadra was actually only a graphy in official Medieval Latinism, saved by tradition. In early-Romance period it was spoken Zadra, because the group –Ja-, as everywhere, was transformed to Za-. In Venetian dialect, the group –dr- was transformed to –r- (that is one of the characteristics of of that dialect, examples patron – paron), in the contrary it was saved in Croatian language, so obviously Croatian name was closer to original form than Italian name, which was undertaken from Venetian dialect. Zadra (female gender)  was transformed to male gender (Zadar) by congruence with appellative «grad» ("city" in Croatian language - male gender), in the same way as Sisak from Siscia.
:A. Škegro: "PROVINCIALE VETUS – Stari pokrajinski katalog ili Katalog provincija opće Crkve – Provinciale vetus sive Ecclesiae universae provinciarum notitia" , Hrvatska akademija znosti i umjetnosti, Zagreb, 2005 (PROVINCIALE VETUS - Old provincial catalogue or Catalogue of  universal Church provinces, Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Zagreb, 2005). 
:This is translation to Croatian language of  the writing (original in Latin) which is full of data about late-Antique and early-Medieval accidents in church and political life of  cultural Europe, compiled of several sources from different time periods and finally arranged by an author from the fall of early-Medieval ages. Last changes were from 13th century.
:Previously to this edition it was last published by Jacques Paul Migne in his Patrologia Latina, Paris, 1851, compilation of Medieval sources.
:It includes one of the most oldest lists of catholic bishops dioceses in Christian Medieval countries. 
:In the section Civitates Dalmatiae et Croatiae num. XX, 19 Croatian cities were noted as sitting places of dioceses.  Zadar was noted as civitas Jadera. 
:Mate Suić: «O imenu Zadra», Zadar Zbornik, Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1964 ("About the Name of Zadar",  Zadar - Scientific essays, Zagreb 1964) on the page 102 mentiones a  document from Medieval (12th century) Cod. dipl. III 231 where Latin Zadur which was Croatian Zadъr was found. This "Latin" literal variance is an example how Croatian name was used in the documents (written in Latin language) related to the Kingdom of Croatia and it clearly shows the weakening of the second syllable also present in Dalmatian variances Jadera->Jadra.  Original source was last published: Smičiklas Tadija, ed. Codex diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae, sv. III, Zagreb 1905 
page 103:
Further development of the name was in Venetian language. A group -dr- transformed to -r- there... So Jadra, spoken Zadra was changed with Venetian Zara and from there later into Italian literral language. This proves that Croatian format Zadar is closer to pre-format from which modern names were developed.
...The name of the city was also found in old French chronics which were describing the accidents from Fourth Crusade (P.Skok: "Tri starofrancuske kronike o Zadru u godini 1202.", Zagreb 1951, - "Three old-French chronics about Zadar in the year of 1202"). The name of the city was Jadres there. It’s usually considered that this graphy had responded to the local people pronunciation of  the name, according to format Jadra which was most found in the documents, with final –s of French language singular nominative. Some of the authors of these chronics were passing through the city so allegedly they were able to hear how native population pronounced the name.  However a somewhat different view is much more convincing. In the age of Fourth Crusade Zadar was very important centre, known much far out of Dalmatia; its name written in official Latin was spreading through the documents and literal writings. Therefore much more logical conclusion is that authors of these chronics, written directly after the accidents that were described (a siege), simply Franchised a conventional graphy Jadra (-e- exchanging –a-  and adding –s for nominative), taken from numerous written sources and without interference by local educated people...
Summary:
*Iader - Liburnian or older; 
*Iader/Iadera - Latin during Antique (Greek: Idassa); 
*Iader/Iadera/Iadra (Jader/Jadera/Jadra - spoken Zader/Zadera/Zadra in Dalmatian language) - early Medieval (Greek: Iadora, Diadora-possible error in transcription); 
*Jadera/Jadra (spoken Zadera/Zadra/Zadar in Dalmatian and Croatian), - Medieval (Venetian: Zara, Jatara)(Toscanian: Giara)(French: Jadres)(Arabian: Jadora, Jadera, Jadra - spoken as in English)...
*Zara (administrative), Zadar and Jadra (spoken Zadra) mostly in use by majority, Zara by Venetians and local noblemen - 1409-1798
*Zara (administrative), Zadar and Zara in use - 19th and 20th century til 1943
*Zadar - 1943-present
As you can see the city never really changed its name in last 1.500 years and it was definitely Jadera/Jadra (read: Zad'ra) in Dalmatian. Zara or Çara is the same phonetically - Venetian name.
:Scripts of Zadar notars in 13th and 14th century: 
:Spisi zadarskih bilježnika Henrika i Creste Tarallo 1279.-1308./Notariorum Jadrensium Henrici et Creste Tarallo acta quae supersunt 1279.-1308.Mirko Zjačić, Notarilia Jadertina/Spisi zadarskih bilježnika (dalje SZB) 1, Zadar, 1959.
:Spisi zadarskih bilježnika Ivana Qualis, Nikole pok. Ivana, Gerarda iz Padove 1296…1337/Notarium Jadrensium Johannis Qualis, Nicolai quondam Johannis, Gerardi de Padua acta quae supersunt 296…1337. - Mirko Zjačić i Jakov Stipišić, SZB 2, Zadar, 1969.
:Spisi zadarskog bilježnika Franje Manfreda de Surdis iz Piacenze 1349.-1350./Notarii Jadrensis Francisci ser Manfredi de Surdis de Placentia asta quae supersunt 1349.-1350. - Jakov Stipišić, SZB3 , Zadar, 1977.
:In these notar scripts you can see how Dalmatian name Jadera/Jadra was used in the documents written in Latin language. Zenanarh (talk) 22:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Zadar - ''Jadera'', ''Jadra''

message: I've added the english version. I think what I've put fits perfectly with the dalmatian version. Bardeluc (talk) 13:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's OK, I added "and He said" at the beginning, because it is in the Dalmatic text also.--DaniloVilicic (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Parable of the Prodigal Son 

message: This article and the discussions above are proof of the bias of the compilers.
If they were objective they would recognise that:
1) to date there are Dalmatian speakers, one has only to go on the spot and do some field research.
2) according to reliable sources (since the napoleonic times we had censuses: ie the survey conducted by French general Marmont and then the censuses of the Austrian Empire) there were numerous Italian speakers in Dalmatia. These included Dalmatian speakers and other who spoke Venetian Italian as in Zara.
3)All the contributions of the Croat linguists here are biased as they try to prove that Dalmatian language was superseded by Croatian first and that Latin speakers there were later immigrants from Venice Republic or other parts of Italy. However they are unable to give evidence of this fact unless anecdotical.
In Zara lived tens of thousands of people before 1943 and almost no Croatians. Is it credible that all of them were not the descendents of the original Dalmatians but later Venetian immigrants?
It is only a natural phenomenon that the language of the dominant power becomes accepted by locals when it is relatively closely related as Romance languages are. A good example are the county of Nice and Corse. Speakers of local Ligurian (earlier) and Corse (later) little by little accepted the use of French.
4) It would be interesting to conduct a survey on surnames (easy: just take a phone directory). Many Ragusean surnames look Italian, not Venetians. But similar to those of Abruzzi and Molise or even Tuscany. I can testify that autoctone ragusean families accepted the use of Tuscan Italian having met in 1985 a gentleman from this city who asserted: "My family is originary of Ragusa. In my family we have always spoken Italian". His Italian was good and bore no traces of Venetian influence.Aldrasto (talk) 05:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dalmatian language described in this article is extinct long time ago, and is not a "dialect of Italian", but in fact completely separate Romance dialect, separated by Italian by several ancient isoglosses. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

text: This fact proves that in Dalmatian towns a form of vulgar Latin identical to contemporary Italian was widely in use. - Please educate yourself on the basics of Romance philology and redirect this irredentist nonsense to your blogs and Greater Italy fora. None of this will ever enter the Wikipedia article and you're not deceiving anyone but yourself. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:03, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  to the editors 

message: Romanian: Lat. p to D. and R. t (as in pater, tuota, tatal). However (panis, pun or pen, painea).
Istriot: in the discussions above it is not mentioned. BTW this looks odd as there is a point concerning the name of Dignano/Dignani, a place where Istriot is the original local language as long as Rovijn/Ruveign,Fasana, Gallesano ecc. So these are the original toponims. See the relevant articles on wiki.
Istriot has its own literary tradition too. See also Istrianet for comprehensive information about Istriot.
It looks that D. was closer to Istriot than Friulan.
Jadera: it is probably related to Adria (Hatria), an ancient toponim of uncertain origin.Aldrasto (talk) 14:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Jadera is Zadar. Read "Name" section in Zadar article. It is Pre-Indo-European, Venetic Adria/Hadra, Liburnian Iadera, name of Adriatic Sea, ader - Illyrian word for water, a bunch of similar toponyms on many Mediterranean shores with with root -adr-, even river Ader in England. Obviously some hydronym. Zenanarh (talk) 14:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

text: Giadra? I know for Tuscan Giara, so Giadra is obviously another Tuscan form, probably older and more close to indegenious Jadera (pronounced Zadera or Zad'ra) in Dalmatian. Zenanarh (talk) 08:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

text: About Adria, yes I agree with you, some scientists stated that Adria was Liburnian colony by establishment, but then populated by Etruscans and maybe Veneti. But its name (as well as Zadar's and Adriatic's) is the most possibly older than any of these ethnic groups. It doesn't matter if the language is I-E. It can save P-I-E archaisms. Many toponyms at the eastern Adriatic coast are P-I-E. Yes I know for Greek form and even other forms like Croatian voda or English water came from the same pre-form. What makes me confused is that info of PIE origin of Zadar name came from an eminent historian in the 60's of the last century. Zenanarh (talk) 08:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:   Dalmatian and other Romance languages 

message: The text of the Lord's Prayer and the Parable of the Prodigal Son appear to be taken from the primary source on Dalmatian, Das Dalmatische, listed in the References.
I found both when searching the text in Google books.
http://books.google.com/books?id=aK40AQAAMAAJ&dq=Das%20Dalmatische&pg=RA1-PA310#v=onepage&q&f=false
Lord's Prayer:
https://play.google.com/books/reader2?id=aK40AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.RA1-PA150
Prodigal Son:
https://play.google.com/books/reader2?id=aK40AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.RA1-PA128
I'm not sure exactly how the article should be updated as I'm not an experienced editor or the like, but I figure someone could use this information to put the proper sources in.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassander (talk • contribs) 22:36, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language Sample 

message: Today there are about 20 or more people in Dalmatia and other countries who learned Dalmatian language from books and can speak it . http://langadalmot.webs.com/  93.143.55.107 (talk) 21:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That means absolutely NOTHING about whether or not a language is extinct. LATIN is extinct - and look at the number of people who speak Latin today. A language becomes extinct when its last native speaker dies - there is no home, or village, or town in existence where Dalmatian is the common language and a going concern - no, as with Latin, only a few academicians and church officials speak it, and it is not a 'native language' for any population.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.24.158 (talk) 15:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: No more extinct

message: As of this revision, there appears to be a dead link at reference 12. I located a possible replacement here.
I checked the Internet Archive, and no history of the original link can be found.
- Sir Beluga (talk) 16:51, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible replacement for dead link 

message: The entire Literature section needs sources; in particular I can find no web existence of the referenced "Adi la raipa" poetry text. I've checked scholarly databases as well as Google (the only hits are this wiki page and scraping pages that reuse the wiki content). I searched in French, Italian, and English. Users proficient in Croatian or related languages might see if there is a web reference beyond my linguistic means. Otherwise this should probably be removed until there's evidence of its existence. Jillcicle (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, there appears to be no mention predating the addition of the claim to this article (22/06/2009). I've gone ahead and simply removed it. Nicodene (talk) 12:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literature and "Adi la raipa de mi jeuntut"