Talk:Gender dysphoria/Archive 1

message: Somehow this page seems to me problematic -- would you also put a page about homosexuality under the title of (and describing it as) "disorder of the sexual orientation"? --till we *) 17:09 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
::: To reply to this original point: we have gender identity disorder, and we also have transsexual - so I reckon we are addressing essentially the same phenomenon from different perspectives: the personal/political perspective and the psychiatric perspective. So I reckon we can keep this title without fear of breaking NPOV. -Martin
:I think I see your point, but with around 1% to 2% of the Western world's self-identifying as homosexual, homosexuality is no longer considered a disorder. GID is much more rare, isn't it? --Ed Poor
::I don't think the question about something being a disorder or not has to do something with it being rare or occuring often. It's a question of classification, and that classification doesn't enacts in a neutral room, but in a social setting full of micro-politics, interests, different points of view etc. What is a disease or disorder, and what is healthy normality, depends often on the cultural environment at the time (there is a nice book by Susan Star Leight, sp? which I don't have at hands at the moment, wherein she examines how the international disease catalogue was constructed). I agree than a mainstream view on GID could be a view that classifies it as disorder -- but this is in no way the neutral point of view (see your own user page ;-) ). So, I hope my changes are okay (and thanks for the copyediting). --till we *)
:I agree with you that classifying GID as a "disorder" is not neutral -- it's definitely someone's point of view. Thanks for checking my user page; I try not to hide my own "lack of neutrality". By the way, my usual policy on editing "controversial" issues like homosexuality and so on is to limit myself to around one edit per day -- and never to engage in an edit war: I'd rather be harmonious than right (on this site, anyway). --Ed Poor
((I tried to push the article a bit more into what I would see as an neutral point of view. If it goes to far, you have to push it into the other direction. --till we *)))
Brandon Teena referred to himself as having a gender identity disorder (no, not just in the fiction film; it's on the tape of his conversation with the police officer).  --KQ
:I don't see your point. To come back to my homosexuality argument above, take a look at how "gay" started as an insult (and homosexuality as a disorder), coming to a positive seen self-name. It's not about the word "Gender identity disorder", but about the meaning. And I don't think Brandon Teena has seen himself as having a health problem, did he? BTW -- on GID Reform is a lot of material about Gender Idenity Disorder and why the catalogue of mental disorders should be reformed. --till we *)
:::That's because I wasn't responding to you; I was responding to montréalais above.  --KQ
::Actually, "gay" started in Victorian England as meaning "sexually loose", i.e., streetwalkers called "gay women" in My Secret Life. Homosexuality started as an immoral act or sin, graduating to a "disorder" only after the rise of psychology and psychiatry in the 20th century. Perhaps I should write more in another article about how homosexuality got declassified as a "disorder". --Ed Poor
:::It's a double edged sword for transsexuals.  Freedom to live "as is" requires medical intervention, and in an increasingly paranoid world, opportunities to earn a livelihood are more likely for someone with a "clean" bill of mental health.  Insurance coverage for services ain't gonna happen no matter what happens on the "investigational" front, so there's nothing to lose there.  Fortunately, with an increasingly entrepreneurial medical community, "available at some price" doesn't imply "medically necessary".  Getting declassified as a "disorder" would be worth something as a symbolic victory.  I think most of the alleged discrimination and other hardship is more taboo-based than clinical-based.
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I'm a bit confused about the article's use of the words 'sex' and 'gender'. Do sufferers of GID feel they have the wrong genitalia, or do they feel the gendder role society assigns them to be wrong? -- Tarquin
:I'd say the "sufferers" feel they have the wrong genitalia ('sex') for the gender they think/feel they belong to, and therefore society assigns them the wrong gender roles. -- till we *)
:I'd have to agree -- based on the little bit of reading I've done today. Sufferers of GID literally believe they are the opposite sex and feel that their body is the wrong sex. Hence, the two approaches to this problem: (A) change the body with surgery and drugs; or (B) re-orient sexual identity to the body. Despite my personal belief that B is always the correct choice, I intend to avoid impressing this POV onto the article, which for NPOV must only say that some advocates say A, while others say B. --Ed Poor
:: Genitalia is a bit simplistic. There's a lot of secondary sexual characteristics that transsexuals typically try and "fix" to be more in line with their internal self-image. There's also a lot of acquired sexual differences like flirting, hair length, certain choices of words, passive/active dichotomy, etc - Deirdre McCloskey wrote in her memoirs that she worked hard to relearn all the appropriate gestures to try and get "read" as a former man less often. -Martin
:GID reminds me of SSAD, the view of the IHF and a few others that homosexuality is an inappropriate quest for love from one's own sex. The gay man is really longing for his father's parental love. --Uncle Ed
::EEEEEeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. - Montréalais
:: Is SSAD what homosexuality was called back when it was in the DSM-II? If so, I've seen the comparison made before.
:: Curiously, the last transsexual I spoke to was happy to accept the term 'disorder' - he said it was a cruel trick of the universe to provide him with an incompatible brain and body. It was the fact it was classed as a psychiatric disorder that got him: he figured that his brain was fine, but his body was wrong, rather than the other way round. But I didn't put that into the article because I don't know how commonplace a view it is. -Martin
:::I gather "SSAD" may be a new coinage, perhaps even peculiar to Richard Cohen and his IHF. But I don't know for sure enough to add it to the article. For all I know, he's the only one promoting the view. Moreover, I'm not sure if it has any bearing on GID or not. Anyway, it plainly is grossing out Montréalais, so maybe I better shut up now. --Uncle Ed
----
Heavily edited this page, for various reasons:
Gender identity disorder is not the same as transsexuality, but covers the complete transgender spektrum. 
: after further research, agreed: DSM-IV has this GIDNOS diagnosis (now in entry), and that's backed up by other sources. Sorry to incorrectly contradict you earlier. GID seems to still primarilly refer to TS, though. -Martin
Intersexuals are often diagnosed as suffering from gender identity disorder - after all, a lot of them will have problems with the gender assigned to them, because there is a 50% chance of missing. 
Also, extremely dangerous stuff about "cure" deleted. Has been tried for 100 years. Has produced a lot of very disturbend and/or unhappy people, but only in very isolated cases, where the reason for the initial gender identiy problem came clearly from the outside, it has actually helped that person. It's about as effective and advisable as elector shocks to cure homosexuality.
: I'm concerned that your changes to the treatment section are a worry in terms of a neutral point of view (NPOV). You may view such cures as extremely dangerous, but wikipedia itself can't take a position, only report the positions held by others. In this case, ideally we'd like to report the positions of reputable medical establishments, and so on. -Martin
:: I have merely stated what every reasonable scientific text will tell you - they don't work, but cause a lot of harm. If you are concerned about my statements, what about those that I deleted? To claim that some pseudo-christian snake-oil-selling "doctor" could "cure" gender variant children without even questioning who really needed some cure (not to mention (non-)effectiveness of this treatment) was not exactly a neutral point of view, either. And it's not neutral, either, to only report one side. Especially if it's definitely an outsider position that clearly comes from some religious point of view. 
And I haven't even mentionend that in the previous version SRS was labeled a cure for transsexualism. Whoever wrote that didn't even know how to spell the word clue. 
Be that as it may - if what I wrote need to be "neutralized", so be it. I know I get angry everytime I read dangerous stuff like that. (And I can back up my opinion - can they?) However - in that case it should also be remembered that the Wikipedia is also not indented to be an advertising space for religious quacks. AlexR 02:30 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
Every reasonable scientific text says that gender reassignment won't work?  Has every scientific researcher spoken to every person who has undergone the treatment and found out that every peron who has undergone it wishes it hadn't happened? -- Zoe
Every text that deals with the matter, yes. Although having spoken with every person who ever has untergone such a treatment won't be neccessary for such a text. It would be impossible anyway. And the stories which pretend to be success stories don't talk about anything but their respective clients, either. 
I have tried for years (and so have others) to find a single text or case - just one single one - where a psychological attempt to reconcile a person with their biological or assigned gender worked and where there is a follow-up that says it worked still a few years after the treatment ended. Oh yes, you can find a few (altough not very many) where such a treatment alledgedly worked - but they *all* lack a follow up. 
On the other hand, many transgendered people and many intersexual people can tell you their stories of psychological or social attempts to reconcile them with their sex or assigned gender. It didn't work. And that despite the fact that most people who in the end change their gender wouldn't rather have been "cured" instead. There are easier parts in live, you know. Many have tried for every "cure" that was available to them. Didn't work. AlexR 08:53 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
My apologies, AlexR.  I read your comments as saying that you were saying that those with GID shouldn't be operated on to change their sexes, but should be content with what they are.  -- Zoe
Oops - yes, that was a rather capital misunderstanding. However, I have to admitt that I didn't exactly express myself very clearly, too. Therefore, for anybody stumbling over this in the future: 
A cure for GID or transgender feelings would be able to reconcile a person with their sex or their assigned gender. Such a cure has never been found, all claims of such cases lack a follow-up. It was this claim of a cure in the article I edited I spoke out against so strongly. The moral issues of the neccessity and desirability of such a cure are pretty much the same as in the matter of curing homosexuality. Both definitely matters that do not belong into the Wikipeda.
The same version also called sexual reassignenment (surgery) another cure. It isn't. It's a way to enable people to live in the gender they feel they belong to, or their chosen gender.  It can be, however, a cure for societey, by reinforcing a binary gender system (see Heteronormativity) by leaving gender variant people exactly two choices. Again, though, this is a debate with a strong moral and/or ethnical component, and therefore should be carried out elsewhere, too. 
AlexR 10:15 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
: Hmm. I reckon it's a question of perspective. If you look at GID and say "the body is correct, the mind is wrong", then SRS isn't a cure, and fixing the mind via psychotherapy would be a cure. If you look at GID and say "the mind is correct, the body is wrong", then SRS is a cure, and psychotherapy would not be. I guess because GID is a psychological term, it's the former that is the "correct" way of seeing things. -Martin
:: Sounds right, however, I know only very few transgendered people who see SRS as a cure. Most are also fully aware that no matter what medicine can give you, it is not a sex change. Maybe then it would more be seen as a cure. On the other hand, since an increasing number of transgendered people don't see being transgender as a disorder, well, there's no cure for it necessary. (Which doesn't mean medical treatment can't be neccessary!) That's probably the other main reason why it's hardly ever seen as a cure. In those cases, it is more seen like a wheelchair for a disabled person. Not a cure, but an often necessary instrument. Nothing more, nothing less. AlexR 19:58 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
----
The recently added external link to the article by Rekers seems to be highly biased. He seems to be a proponent of reparative therapy. Also, the articles he cites are all either very old (older than 1985), or (co-)authored by himself. It doesn't prove that he is wrong, just that he is one of very few people still clinging to outdated views on GID. IMHO, this is not a good article to link to here, at least not without an additional warning about its bias. -- Kimiko 08:18, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Kimiko & Everyone, I completely agree that the link to Rekers is exceptionally biased, and very poor science.  He's really just advancing a religious perspective using the language of research.  But I feel it's worth keeping since people should be aware of what an argument from those who support the GID diagnosis could sound like.  BTW, I did not put the Reker's link here.  I think it was already put there by MyRedDice.  You changed the Portrayals of Transgenderism in Psychopathology link to say it's about bias in research rather than about removal of GID.  To me, these are actually the same thing, since GID is a psychopathological research category.  I liked my language better since it parallels the entry for Reker's essay and uses the terminology of this entry (i.e., GID).  But I won't change it back unless you or others feel it makes sense to.  This raises a much bigger question I have: why is the entry for "Gender Dsyphoria" redirected to "Gender Identity Disorder?"  There can be such a thing as discomfort with gender (gender dysphoria) without any implication that it's a pathology (GID). ~ Katie
I don't expect many proponents of this diagnosis to sound like Rekers though.<BR>
The genderpsychology.org link is about researchers being biased to see/describe GID in a negative light. Your description of removal of GID from the DSM does not cover the content of the essay at all. The author doesn't advocate that at all. Also, the article by Rekers is not about continued inclusion of GID in the DSM. It discusses GID of childhood from a Christian POV.<BR>
Gender dysphoria probably redirects to GID because this article comes closest to explaining what gender dysphoria is, in the absence of an actual article about that topic itself. Transgender or transsexual would also be good candidates. -- Kimiko 21:36, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  2002/2003 discussions 

message: Old talk:
* Brandon Teena moved to famous transgendered people
* UC says GID/TS due to possession: don't mention: not a scientific theory
* need evidence on what proportion of doctors recommend sex change - >50%?
* All debates up to 2003 moved to /Archive 2003, including debates on how appropriate the label gender identity disorder is and what constitues a cure for it. -- AlexR 14:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Untitled 

message: this page needs a huge cleanup, it just rambles.  look at how well this source conveys all the same data.  http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec15/ch203/ch203b.html  the aim should be to be more like this.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.184.75 (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seriously? 

message: There's a discussion going on in Talk:Transsexual#Another_cause_of_transexualism, which some people watching this article may be interested in. --Rebroad 13:35, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And I don't care what you say, but kindly sign your entires, and am I right in assuming that you choose the wrong heading for your comment? -- John Smythe 15:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inducing gender dysphoria 

message: Anyone want to discuss what they think is NPOV or OR? Phyesalis 03:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV and OR? 

message: In reverting from an edit reflecting the ICD-10 definition of GID as "a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex," User:MarionTheLibrarian notes: "the doctors didn't >assign< the kid to have a penis, like assignment to a control group." While presence or absence of a penis is the organizing principle in CAMH ideology (i.e., Ray Blanchard saying a postoperative trans woman is "a man without a penis"), the reason "assigned sex" is more accurate scientifically is because presence or absence of a penis is not always enough information to make a sex assignment. Further, the term "sex reassignment" indicates that there was an original assignment. I propose we use the ICD-10 definition as it is more accurate and value-neutral. Thoughts? Jokestress (talk) 16:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We have articles on Sex reassignment surgery and Sex reassignment therapy as well as sex assignment, so it stands to reason that we should discuss this in terms of the assignment. Biologic or natal or anatomic sex are value judgments and POV terms in this case. Further, the presence of a vagina is usually used to assign a sex to girls, not an absence of a penis. That reflects the sort of clinical bias that permeates a lot of the sexology literature about this topic. Jokestress (talk) 14:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Assigned sex vs. natal sex 

message: An informal suggestion for merging this article with transsexualism has been proposed. In my opinion, this article should be about the formal diagnosis created in 1980. The article transsexualism should be be about the development of that concept as described by Hirschfeld (Die Transvestiten, 1910 and/or Die intersexuelle Konstitution, 1923) and Cauldwell (Psychopathia Transsexualis, 1949) and developed from there in the 20th century. We have precedent here for dividing demographic groups from medicalized conceptualizations, such as gay and homosexuality. The Harry Benjamin quotation which appears in the opening of both the GID and TS articles is not appropriate here, because it is not specifically about gender identity disorder, which was not a formalized diagnosis until about 15 years after he published the quoted book. Thoughts? Jokestress (talk) 14:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender identity disorder vs. transsexualism 

message: The American Psychological Association has just released the final report from it's task force on trans issues.  The report is lengthy (126 pages), so adding relevant content should probably be accomplished by multiple editors.  For those interested, the report is available at http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/transgender/2008TaskForceReport.pdf.  Also relevant is APA's recent passage of an anti-discrimination policy regarding trans issues, the text of which is available at http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/transgender.pdf.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 14:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A number of reports about the staggering clinical bias in this APA report are also being prepared. One key issue is their falsification of prevalence data discussed here (also available as a PDF). Jokestress (talk) 17:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New report on transsexuality from American Psychological Association 

message: "This perspective often notes that other cultures, particularly historical ones, valued gender roles that would presently suggest homosexuality or transsexuality as normal behavior."  What does 'particularly historical ones' mean in this case? That most of those cultures no longer exist? That cultures that used to do so no longer do? Also, a sweeping statement like this needs some mentions of specific cultures, because some (especially a bunch of Native American ones) get this claim a lot, but inaccurately. Vultur (talk) 19:59, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing and weasel-wordy sentence 

message: The American Psychiatric Association has not released its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders into public domain, but claims copyright. The Wikimedia Foundation has received a letter of complaint (Ticket:2010030910040817, for those with access) about the use of their diagnostic criteria in this and a number of other articles. Currently, this content is blanked pending investigation, which will last approximately one week. Please feel free to provide input at the copyright problems board listing during that time. Individuals with access to the books would be particularly welcome in helping to conduct the investigation. Assistance developing a plan to prevent misuse of the APA's material on Wikipedia projects would also be welcome. Thank you.  Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problems with diagnostic criteria 

message: I just wanted to post some kind of response to this reversion of my reversion of an edit which changed a few instances of "transgendered" to "transgender", where Joe Random IP Address stated:
:"Edit directly contrary to the main authoritative style guides from GLAAD and NGLJA, editor may not like those orgs, but they have more authority than a random blog post"
I have no idea why someone would imagine that GLAAD's and NGLJA's recommendations for terminology to be used by journalists who wish to display due sensitivity in their articles would be dispositive in an article on "Gender Identity Disorder", where the language employed in the DSM-IV speaks solely of "cross-gender" identification etc.; that notwithstanding, part of my objection to changing this article to impose uniform use of "transgender" is that it may create more confusion regarding the topic, where "transgender" may be interpreted as applying to a person held to belong under the "transgender umbrella", including (for example) many drag queens and cross-dressers who do not suffer from gender dysphoria or "Gender Identity Disorder".
And to boot, there is a linguistic morass here:  see the discussion on the Language Log blog in response to a post on "Transgender(ed)" made by a Professor of Linguistics on precisely this question of usage, in which he defends the use of "transgendered" from the claim that it is "grammatically incorrect" (which - Believe It Or Not! - is the basis of GLAAD's objection to it).
IMO:  "Betty is transgender" just sounds wrong to me, especially when applied to someone diagnosed with GID… (though some transsexual folks strongly prefer it!).  Even those expert in grammar disagree on which term is proper .-)  YMWV. 
It really has nothing to do with what I think of GLAAD or NGLJA.  Right?
And ultimately?  I feel I must cite a source noted in that dialog on "Transgender(ed)" "Why Should I Care What Color the Bikeshed Is?".   -- bonze blayk (talk) 05:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminological quibbling re:  "transgender(ed)" 

message: Hello all! On December 1, 2012, the American Psychiatric Association voted to remove Gender Identity Disorder from the upcoming Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders V, which is to be released in May of next year. A somewhat similar diagnosis to the old GID will also be added to the DSM, to be called "Gender Dysphoria." It's not just a change in terminology, though, and the two diagnosis are likely to have significantly different framing and criteria. I believe that this article on GID should be updated to reflect this impending change, which has been in the pipeline for a while, but as of December 1st is now a certainty. I am a newer editor, however, and I would appreciate any help/suggestions that others could provide on approaching this rewrite. If no one gets back to me after a week or two, I will just do my best to make the re-write on my own. Thanks! Rebecca 14:19, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Rebecca! I would suggest you write one line about this in the lead, and a few more in the section Diagnostic criteria. Make sure that you have a good source to the lines you write in the section. Otherwise, please be bold! and write your text. Lova Falk talk 15:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it'd be worth covering the expansion of Transvestic Disorder and the criticism of Ray Blanchard and Kenneth Zucker that many of trans activists and allies have criticised (see: Paris Lees, ThinkProgress); we don't want to make this a APA whitewash. Sceptre (talk) 23:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

text: IP, you may already know this or it's a coincidence that you brought up this matter today, but the retitling of this article to Gender dysphoria, and describing the diagnosis as "formerly known as gender identity disorder (GID)," was discussed earlier today at WP:MED. Feel free to join in on that discussion, of course. Also, remember to sign your username at the end of the comments you make on Wikipedia talk pages. All you have to do to sign your username is simply type four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. I signed your username for you above. Flyer22 (talk) 22:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: See the #Updates required to reflect DSM-5 discussion below for further information on this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 19:47, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gender Identity Disorder To Be Removed from DSM-5 

message: The text about sociocultural causes is extremely suspect at best. David Reimer was treated using an abusive program of therapy (eg being forced to simulate sex acts with another young boy while the therapist observed) and a coercive assignment to a gender other than his own already-established one; claiming the traumatic childhood developed into gender dysphoria is true but misleading, and using Reimer as a general case as this paragraph does is extremely dishonest. All Reimer's case proves about "traumatic child-rearing" is that actually changing the sex of your child against their will and then abusing them for a decade to try and make them conform does not lead to a gender identity change. Reimer's case cannot be generalised to other cases of GID - it merely makes a trivially true claim that dysphoria can be caused by a body not matching one's internal gender identity. The text appears (the appearance is why I am not making this edit myself, it is possible I misunderstand) to use this to explain that traumatic child-rearing can cause GID; the only claim supported by the source is "changing your child's gender can cause GID", which is considerably more specific. 94.195.48.203 (talk) 00:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the information about David Reimer in this article isn't very well-written and is confusing. I do think Reimer's example does provide one instance of how GID is socially constructed, however. If Reimer had been to live out his life as a male and hadn't been forced to live as a female, he never would have developed GID. He would have been just another boy (albeit one without a penis). Most transsexuals feel similarly. . .if they had been able to live out their lives as their actual gender as opposed to their forcibly assigned gender than they would never have developed gender identity disorder. They simply would have been just another boy or just another girl. Some of them may still have required medical intervention to alter their bodies at a later point in time. . .but without the practice of forcibly assigning infants to a (potentially erroneous and unwanted) gender, these medical interventions would hardly would be considered "disordered." Rebecca (talk) 03:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

text: Put another way, GID is defined in the article as "discontent with the sex they [transsexuals] were assigned at birth." Obviously, if the cultural practice of assigning infants a sex at birth did not exist, and no one HAD a sex assigned at birth, it would be impossible to be discontented with such a (nonexistent) assignment. In other words, GID wouldn't exist without the cultural practice of assigning infants a sex at birth. Rebecca (talk) 03:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. I think the Reimer text needs to come out because it's not actually an example of GID, if GID is correctly defined in the article as discontent with the sex assigned at birth. Reimer was assigned male at birth, which he was comfortable with, and was later assigned female post-accident, with which he was initially felt to be comfortable but later discovered not to have been. His unhappiness was about his assigned gender, true, but not his assigned gender *at birth,* which is what the article says defines GID. So I'm going to take it out. But if there's something I'm missing here please, anyone, feel free to revert me. Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 07:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted. You are interpreting gender identity disorder too strictly, and the text you removed was not only about Reimer. Flyer22 (talk) 07:32, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Flyer22. I don't mind you reverting me, but I didn't make the edit because I disagreed with the viewpoint. I made it because i) the Reimer example isn't GID, according to the article's definition, and ii) the Ray Blanchard stuff is disputed (he is controversial) but didn't say that. Like I said, I don't mind being reverted, but I think this section could definitely use some work. (In fact, the whole article could.) I might get to it tomorrow -- but somebody else should feel free to revise and refine if they have time before I do. Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 08:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  David Reimer 

message: "It describes the symptoms related to transsexualism, as well as less extreme manifestations." I think this sentence in the lede is awkward and imprecise. Transsexualism is a state or condition that doesn't necessarily imply disorder or unhappiness: a person, at least in theory, could identify with a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth, without necessarily experiencing that as problematic. (See Transsexualism, which says "A medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be a member of the opposite gender,[1] or if a person experiences impaired functioning or distress as a result of that gender identification.[2]" Emphasis added by me.) Further, I don't think it's accurate to describe transsexualism as inherently "extreme," and I am not sure what a "less extreme manifestation" of transsexualism is actually referring to. Wouldn't it be more accurate to simply say something like "It describes the symptoms experienced by many transsexuals and other transgendered people."? Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 08:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the conception of transsexualism as "extreme" is flawed (nonsensical, really). I also don't think the characterization of it as "extreme" is something that's found in the source material that this sentence is supposedly a paraphrase of. I think there's an easy solution that will also make the whole lead flow smoother and be less verbose. . .just get rid of that sentence entirely while slightly modifying the next sentence. The next sentence could be re-written as "Affected individuals are commonly referred to as transsexual or transgender," with both the words "transsexual" and "transgender" being wikilinked. Actually, this is such an obviously necessary change in my opinion that I'm going to go ahead and Wikipedia:be bold and make it. Rebecca Weaver (talk) 13:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Rebecca -- perfect :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 20:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Symptoms related to transsexualism 

message: Gender identity disorder in children is considered clinically distinct from gender dysphoria that appears in adolescence or adulthood. As gender identity develops in children, so do gender role stereotypes: the beliefs, characteristics and behaviors that are deemed culturally normal and appropriate for males and females. These "norms" are influenced by a person's family and friends, media, community and other socializing agents.[3] Since many cultures have strict expectations about gender, varying from the norm can lead to significant distress for the individual and the people around them. Some transgender individuals also report discomfort stemming from feeling "trapped in the wrong body".[4]
This paragraph from the lede section seems wonky to me. It seems to be conflating/confusing a couple of things -- i) GID in children being considered distinct from GID in adults, and why, ii) the fact that GID can be the result of, or a partial result of societal stigmatization (which is unrelated or only very weakly related to the age issue: people of all ages would experience social stigmatization), and iii) the fact that GID unhappiness is also attributed to intrinsic rather than extrinsic origins. Feels to me like we should possibly rewrite along these lines: 
Gender identity disorder in children is considered clinically distinct from gender dysphoria that appears in adolescence or adulthood. Plus an explanation of why, plus sourcing.
And then I think perhaps we should move the material about origins into the later sections on biological causes versus sociocultural causes. (In saying that I'm assuming, but am not sure, that feeling trapped in the wrong body would suggest biological causes. We, or at least I, would need to read the sources to be sure about that.)
Does this make sense? Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 21:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, very much.  I had the same thought about that section.— James Cantor (talk) 22:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks James. I've removed the last four sentences of that paragraph, and pasted them here in case someone wants to integrate them or their sources into the rest of the article. I may eventually do it myself, but anyone else should feel free to do it, if they like. The material isn't bad IMO -- it was just misplaced :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 04:29, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

text: Sue, why did you paste that twice here? Either way, a lot of that information should be in the lead because those matters are significant components to this topic. They help flesh out important aspects of gender dysphoria. And now we are left with an unsourced, one-sentence paragraph that is not hard to source in the least (for example, all one needs to do is look to the Gender identity disorder in children article). Flyer22 (talk) 04:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Muddled early paragraph