Talk:Matsuo Bashō

message: Regarding "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Tokugawa Shogunate" I suggest "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Edo period"; any comments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.1.54.253 (talk) 13:01, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Greatest writers

message: I've fiddled with the use of italics. I haven't been thorough, and I'm not fully happy with what I've done, but here's the reasoning.
Putting Japanese aside, there is indeed an English custom by which the title of any poem (in English) of any length is given in italics. But this is not common. If we want to be persnickety about parentheses, then The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) implies that there's one, bilingual title, and thus is wrong. The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) [note vertical parentheses!] is OK, but it's slightly harder for me to scan than is "The Narrow Road to the Deep North" (Oku no Hosomichi); I therefore recommend that italics are reserved for book titles, as well of course as unassimilated foreign words. (Of course if a published book titled The Narrow Road to the Deep North is cited, it should be cited in italics.) -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Italics

message: We read: ". . . which is dominated by the concept of wabi-sabi: the identification of man with nature." While I'm no expert in this kind of thing, I'm surprised by the idea that there is a single concept of wabi-sabi (I'd thought that they were two words, each expressing a concept or cluster of concepts) and that this amalgam means "the identification of man with nature". Did something get garbled here? -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "wabi/sabi"

message: Peer review suggested that the level of prose needed major improvement more than anything else, so I just rewrote the entire article. Apparently I used the same sources as the previous version, because not much changed by way of facts. Ashibaka tock 23:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: The kanji for Bashō are provided, as they should be; but those for his other names are not, which seems a pity. -- Hoary 08:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Names

message: What's the distinction between "Bibliography" and "References"?
Three of the items in the short bibliography are translations of Oku no hosomiti. Are these the best three translations? Or are they the translations that have the best additional editorial comments about Bashō's work in general or his life? Also, I'm a bit surprised not to see within the "Bibliography" a reference to some separate, scholarly study (perhaps in an academic journal) of Bashō's work as a whole, of some particular aspect of Bashō's work, or of Bashō's biography. There must be scads of the stuff in Japanese, but I'd expect also a certain amount in English. (Maybe what's written in "References" is relevant here.)
NB I'm definitely not angling for "bibliography-stuffing": the mindless addition of impressive-sounding references. No: in the past I've seen lucid, approachable, informative articles (as opposed to "deconstructionist" and similar drivel created merely to impress other academics) about writers in such journals as Monumenta Nipponica, and I guessed that there would be good stuff about Bashō too. 
We read that Bashō was at one time (ambiguously) interested in homosexuality; presumably this is somehow relevant to Louis Crompton's Homosexuality and Civilization. But I'd be surprised if such a grandly titled book by somebody with a non-Japanese name would be a good source on Bashō. (I don't know it; apologies to Crompton if I mischaracterize it.) Does Crompton cite any research on Bashō? If so, it might be better to cite that directly. 
In general, then, I'd be inclined to add a short annotation to each entry in the bibliography and references -- and also of course to indicate which slightly (or more than slightly) controversial claim within the article came from which source. -- Hoary 08:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bibliography

message: The summary for this recent edit, part of which I am about to revert, is footnotes are in Harvard format.
This is bizarre, in that there are no footnotes.
Let's take "footnotes" to be a sleepy mistake for "references" or "citations". It's still bizarre, as a grand total of one assertion is referenced: "He had a great many visitors, and a male disciple by the name of Tsuboi Tokoku (坪井 杜国) who may have become his lover, although there does not seem to have been any contemporary interest in their relationship. (Crompton 2003)" 
Even this looks pretty feeble, as "Crompton 2003" is an entire book that's purportedly about "homosexuality and civilization" in general and thus is unlikely to devote many words to Bashō. Why no page number(s)? Moreover, my suspicions about the value of Crompton's work, expressed above months ago, seem simply to have been ignored. (And finally, I'm puzzled by what seems to be a bit of an obsession in WP articles about unconfirmed rumors of bisexuality, which often [as here] aren't shown to have any significance even if true.)
Let's return to the article. It's bristling with assertions. Where do they come from, or where may one check to see that they also appear in a reliable source? My guess is that they come from Ueda's books Matsuo Bashō and Bashō and His Interpreters, but this is not made clear. Neither is the relationship between "References" and "Bibliography".
The  flag, which I am about to add, should removed when useful citations are added, and not before. -- Hoary 02:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That single sentence was added into the article by someone else than me; you can remove it if Compton is a questionable source. Everything else was written entirely by me and comes from those books. If you think my MLA-style references aren't good enough, you're going to be waiting a long time for me to take the books out of the library again and footnote each little page, because I sure as fuck am not going to do that for you. So basically, you're going to add a pastel box that doesn't improve the article at all. Ashibaka tock 14:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reluctantly consult a copy of the 4th edition (a recent one, though not the latest) of the boring MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers. In §4.2 "MLA style" (pp 104-5), it tells us that MLA style is to use inline citations such as "(Marcuse 197)", adding a bibliography in which the reader may see that "Marcuse" is Sibyl Marcuse's book A Survey of Musical Instruments and necessary publication info. But look, I've no more wish to dwell on what this or that particular MoS says than you do, and I'll stick that book back on its shelf where it may deservedly gather more dust. I've never thought nor intentionally suggested that the article should specify the precise location of the authority for each of its assertions. Saying that the entire content of the article (now that I've deleted the speculative gay trivia) comes from one or other of those two books would be a big start. In fact I'll do it right now. Then the pastel box can be deleted, though I suppose the article should eventually give the precise location of each quotation. -- Hoary 02:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest that there should be more than two named sources. That was very definitely not my point, which was that as it stood, the article-plus-three-references combo could have been taken to mean: "The speculative gay trivia comes from Compton, some editor who added something (he/she didn't note what, and now nobody knows) used one book by Ueda, another editor who added something else (he/she didn't note what, and now nobody knows) used another book by Ueda, and the rest is the predictable mishmash of stuff recycled from dodgy websites, hazily remembered from long-ago readings of subsequently mislaid paperbacks, etc. (And if you don't like that, remember that this is the 'encyclopedia' anyone is free to edit!)" Aarghhh. Despite having perpetrated dozens of footnotes in my time, I don't much like them and certainly don't like obsessiveness in referencing. But there has to be some "middle way" or whatever. ¶ :Don't get me started on userboxes..... Hoary 00:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yes, citations are missing

message: Several of his students compiled quotations from him about his own poetry
It might be useful to give some of these quotations, as it is otherwise almost impossible to judge their nature. Shinobu 03:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What quotations? 

message: I note that this article appears to have some references and a bibliography. That's good. But it would be better if facts in the article were cited inline using <ref>. Shinobu 05:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inline citations 

message: User Shii's rudely worded removal of text today in violation of WP:OWN has been undone-you'll have to come up with something better than "my article" for a reason. This is nobody's article, and everyone's. Chris 21:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Last year I submitted this entire article, complete and in the form you currently see, under the GFDL for people like you to improve. The only thing that has changed about it in the past year is someone added a flippant quote from Caddyshack and a poem someone's rich uncle wrote who is not Basho, and you reverted me when I excised this worthless trivia and called me names because I was upset about the degradation of my article. So, let's break this down: I kneaded the bread, I baked the bread, I gave the bread to you for free, and you shat on the bread. Fuck you. Shii (tock) 20:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Shii]]

message: I read:
:1960s musician Robbie Basho, who released many albums on John Fahey's famed Takoma record label, was brought up Daniel R. Robinson by his adopted parents. Upon discovering the poetry of Matsuo Bashō he decided to change his name to Robbie Basho. The current German guitar player Steffen Basho-Junghans incorporated the Basho into his name after becoming interested in the poetry of Matsuo Bashō through the music of Robbie Basho.
Even if these assertions are true (and no evidence is presented), none of this tells me anything about Basho except that he's at least moderately well known (which is obvious from other phenomena such as the number of editions of his works). It struck me as trivia, and I therefore removed it. -- Hoary 06:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Robbie Basho, etc.

message: I am delisting this article as a GA because on the fact that there are inline citations, failing 2b, "factually accurate and verifiable" under the good article criteria (WP:WIAGA). Wizardman 21:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? This article is just as accurate and verifiable as it has always been. Restoring GA. Shii (tock) 05:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Delisting GA

message: Use of Ueda's translations of Bashō hokku here looks like a straightforward copyvio. Is there some reason to believe this isn't the case?--Yumegusa (talk) 13:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair use FTW. Let's see, less than 500 words, less than a third of the article, they are used in context, they are attributed, used for scholarly nonprofit purpose, do not replace the original book... Looks like a pretty solid example of fair use to me. --Gwern  (contribs) 16:43 3 June 2008 (GMT)
Thanks Gwern. Though I've come across positions conflicting with your interpretation elsewhere in WP (no, I don't remember where), I'm happily assured now.--Yumegusa (talk) 17:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Makoto Ueda copyvio? 

message: My recent edit to make Bashō appear in categories (such as Japanese poets) under B (rather than M for Matsuo)(viz. ) has been undone. This seems absurd since the poet is universally known by his pseudonym Bashō (or Basho) rather than his family name Matsuo. MOS:JP does not appear to address the issue directly, but I have raised the question on its associated Talk page. I'd be grateful for any clarification/explanation of policy or further discussion, there. Thanks --Yumegusa (talk) 13:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defaultsort for names (and pseudonyms) of historical figures 

message: I've opened a discussion at Talk:Basho regarding that dab page and whether 'Basho' should link to it or should redirect to this article. All interested editors are invited to participate.--Yumegusa (talk) 17:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  dab page 

message: I wonder about the recent addition of "The Essential Haiku" to the list in the Translations section. Upto this point, it has been limited to translations of Bashō only, rather than collections which include his work among others. The list could get extremely long and unwieldy if it was to include everything that happens to include him. Thoughts, anyone? --Yumegusa (talk) 17:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll take that as agreement that the section should be limited to translations either exclusively or primarily of Bashō, and remove Hass's Bashō, Buson, & Issa. --Yumegusa (talk) 15:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translations section 

message: I added a translated works but I am struggling to find the ISBN. Any suggestions? TheTallSarge (talk) 00:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the same book as Ueda, Makoto (1982). The Master Haiku Poet, Matsuo Bashō. Tokyo: Kodansha International. .--Yumegusa (talk) 11:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added a book 

message: Should his poems be uploaded to wikicommons. They are after all hundreds of years old and well past copyright laws.Ink Falls (talk) 14:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course Basho's poems in their original Japanese are out of copyright, but that doesn't apply to most modern translations. --Yumegusa (talk) 16:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Upload

message: I see huge problems with the way Bashō's name is handled in this article:
#The initial  template correctly gives Matsuo to be the family name, but it's not specified that Bashō is the pen name (that is, not even a proper given name), not even in the lead section. This might greatly confuse the occasional reader.
#Speaking of pen names: only Sōbō is listed as a pen name in the Infobox. Shouldn't Bashō (and others we know of—with clear references, thank you) be there as well?
#The "English translations" subsection and "References" section both display "Matsuo, Bashō" as if we would regularly say Bashō Matsuo rather than Matsuo Bashō. This is totally unacceptable, given that all books—the English ones at least, to my knowledge—use Bashō as if it were the last name. There's even the little "" reminder to encourage editors to continue this incorrect practice (in my opinion). If a book displays "Matsuo Bashō" on its cover and inside, then it's not the place to be a purist: you write what you see, not what you want to see. The most this practice can do is mess up people's mind. We editors might understand the whole thing, but think about those who know squat about this weird, ancient, exotic stuff that is Japanese poetry from more than 300 years ago.
In sum, the whole thing is confusing, because Japanese and English norms and standards are being used at the same time and not explained sufficiently well. Might someone please address this issue as soon as possible? I just thought I'd speak my mind and ask nicely before personally dealing with (at least) the third point.• H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈ {KLAT} • 21:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to thank our fellow editor Oda Mari for graciously and constructively taking care of points 1 (partially) and 2 (completely). • H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈ {KLAT} • 10:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proper name format 

message: I edited this Because  in Japanese language is written following.
When he was 13 years old his father died and his elder brother took the house. From little age he was sdudied that Life is Painful.Basho (not his real name)was a servant at the samurai family Yoshitada, taking care of senior of Yoshitada Kitamura Gin who was two years older him. His boss was lover of cicada singing and poetry. After his death in 1666 Basho moved to the another city doing construction job.
Haikago (talk) 14:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is nothing in the text you quote to support your edit. I have reinserted the information you deleted, and provided a supporting reference to Ueda.  --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 15:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who shared with him his love for Haiku 

message: I commented out the "Influences=" parameter to suppress the warning message informing reader that  does not use this paramater (any longer). 
 Influences=Imagism, Beat Generation; Robbie Basho, Steffen Basho-Junghans
--Kiyoweap (talk) 01:35, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Influenced in Infobox

message: At the time of writing, there is a request for clarification on this sentence:
"In 1526, two of Bashō's hokku were printed in a compilation."
Have I misunderstood, or is this a typo? Bashō was not born until 1644. 165.142.249.81 (talk) 06:23, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates of early hokku publications 

message: For the recently closed requested move, please see Talk:Basho (disambiguation)#Requested move 30 June 2020. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 21:26, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Letting us know 15 minutes after the discussion closes is a little late, don't you think? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The original link to the discussion was Talk:Basho#Requested move 30 June 2020. One of the consequences of the move request was to redirect Basho to Matsuo Bashō, which of course means that Talk:Basho gets redirected to Talk:Matsuo Bashō. This post was meant only as a courtesy notification for editors who still linked to the original Talk:Basho link. That is all. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 02:49, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 30 June 2020 

message: Here in Japan they are generally called haiku now in the 21st century, though as pointed out in the article haiku originate in the starting verse of linked verses (renga) or hokku. After this introduction however, when referencing Basho's poetry the word hokku continues to be used. This seems to me to be inappropriate. Timtak (talk) 01:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hokku or Haiku ?