Talk:SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer

message: The below section was removed as unsourced and unverified and possibly OR.  The editor who put it in even states it is speculation.  In addition, every book about SS ranks states very clearly that only four men held this highest rank.  I have also personally seen Karl Wolff's SS record and there is not a word in there about a promotion to this rank nor is it mentioned in any biography about this SS General. -OberRanks (talk) 23:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The definitive text books about the SS, which include works by John Keegan and Mark Yerger, very clearly state that only four people ever held the rank of Oberstgruppenfuhrer.  There are also dozens of original source documents from World War II that mention this as well, the first and foremost is records of the SS themselves.  My knowledge of Prutzmann is not as extensive as my knowledge of Wolff, but on that point Karl Wolff himself personally stated he was an Obergruppenfuhrer in the script of his interview with the World at War mini-series.  There is no doubt that there are probably a handful of books that give his rank incorrectly as Oberstgruppebfuhrer but the major sources do not support this, thus we are left with this possibly being WP:NOR.  For this reason, it should not be included in the article. -OberRanks (talk) 04:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I should add that I not at all opposed to saying that there were rumors of late war promotions, only that offical sources contradict this.  Your original submission (which was well written) could be reworded to remove a lot fo the "could be" "maybe" references and then it would be a good addition to the article. -OberRanks (talk) 16:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed as unverified and unsourced

message: There is also some controversy about how many men were promoted to this rank. Hans-Adolf Prützmann and Karl Wolff were both supposedly elevated to this rank on 20 April 1945 (Hitler's last birthday). However, the last SS-Dienstalterslisten, the official listing of all senior SS officers, is dated November 1944, just after the 9 November promotions. Consequently all officer promotions after this date are hard to verify unless one has written or photographic proof. As both of the above men were supposedly given this rank in the very last days of the war, finding the evidence to support the promotions might never be done. In his post-war life, Wolff claimed that he was notified of his promotion in person by Hitler, during a meeting with Hitler in Berlin, in late April of 1945. Wolff continued to sign photos identifying himself as "Generaloberst der Waffen-SS a.D." until the time of his death. In the 1960's, Hitler's chief Adjutant Julius Schaub, when giving a filmed interview, seemed to back up Wolff's claim by stating that "Wolff arrived in the Bunker and reported to the Führer immediately. The Führer was glad to see him and advised him of his much deserved promotion." In the case of Prützmann, he supposedly committed suicide while in British custody on 21 May 1945. However, after the war, Jürgen Stroop would identify Prützmann as being an Oberstgruppenführer in the SS. (Conversations with an Executioner by Kazimierz Moczarski).  In the book Fascism and Occupation 1938-1945 by Czesław Madajczyk, Prützmann is also identified as being an Oberstgruppenführer. As Prützmann held the rank General in both the Polizei and Waffen-SS before his supposed promotion, it would of been highly unlikely that he was not also promoted to Generaloberst of the Polizei and Waffen-SS. 
*Hans-Adolf Prützmann (20 April 1945) 
(und Generaloberst der Polizei und Waffen-SS)
*Karl Wolff (20 April 1945) 
(und Generaloberst der Waffen-SS)
The info on Prutzmann's promotion was sourced by books, that should atleast still remain in the article. Also noted is that the Russian, and Ukrainian versions of this article have Wolff listed as an Oberstgruppenfuhrer, while the Polish version lists Purtzmann. Axis Biographical Research lists Wolff as "[Unconfirmed promotion to SS-Oberst-Gruppenfüher und Generaloberst der Waffen-SS: 20. Apr. 1945]". As the SS service records were most likely last updated around the same time as the Dienstalterslisten, it would indeed not mention it. -Lt.Specht (talk) 01:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The definitive text books about the SS, which include works by John Keegan and Mark Yerger, very clearly state that only four people ever held the rank of Oberstgruppenfuhrer.  There are also dozens of original source documents from World War II that mention this as well, the first and foremost is records of the SS themselves.  My knowledge of Prutzmann is not as extensive as my knowledge of Wolff, but on that point Karl Wolff himself personally stated he was an Obergruppenfuhrer in the script of his interview with the World at War mini-series.  There is no doubt that there are probably a handful of books that give his rank incorrectly as Oberstgruppebfuhrer but the major sources do not support this, thus we are left with this possibly being WP:NOR.  For this reason, it should not be included in the article. -OberRanks (talk) 04:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

text: I should add that I not at all opposed to saying that there were rumors of late war promotions, only that offical sources contradict this.  Your original submission (which was well written) could be reworded to remove a lot fo the "could be" "maybe" references and then it would be a good addition to the article. -OberRanks (talk) 16:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed text

message: I'm rather nonplussed by this statement:  "The last two of the four Oberstgruppenführer promotions were made in 1944, one to a Waffen-SS General and the other as an honorary promotion within the Allgemeine-SS."  Both Hausser and Dietrich were Waffen-SS combat commanders. Solicitr (talk) 04:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats becuase a long time ago, the order of promotions had F.Z.S. third and Hausser fourth.  It was changed to show Schwarz second with the same date of rank as Daluege.  I actually dont know if thats right but assume it could be. -OberRanks (talk) 19:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Allgemeine-SS??

message: The reason I have reverted certain edits is herein explained:
The MOS as to military terms does set out the difference between nouns and proper nouns; ranks and titles. With US ranks it is easier to make the call on whether something should be in caps or not. With german ones, especially Nazi Germany, it is more delicate. First, it should be noted that all of the major books concerning german and SS ranks use caps all the way through. See for example:
*Lumsden, Robin (2000). A Collector's Guide To: The Waffen–SS, Ian Allan Publishing, Inc.  
*Lumsden, Robin (2001). A Collector's Guide To: The Allgemeine – SS, Ian Allan Publishing, Inc.  
*McNab, Chris (2009). The SS: 1923–1945, Amber Books Ltd.  
*Mollo, Andrew (1997). Uniforms of the SS, Collected Edition Volumes: 1–6. Motorbooks Intl.  
*Yerger, Mark C. (1997). Allgemeine-SS: The Commands, Units and Leaders of the General SS, Schiffer Publishing Ltd. . 
So per Wikipeida MOS one can argue, "accepted proper noun, as indicated by consistent capitalization in sources". However, I believe in being more flexible and believe that many recent changes could be said to meet Wikipedia MOS. The problem with the germans and Nazis was that many of their ranks were also titles of position. So they would be proper nouns, such as: "Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich, 20 April 1942 (und Panzer-Generaloberst der Waffen-SS". It would be like saying, "The Duke of York" or "Reichsführer-SS". Kierzek (talk) 21:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Completely agree.  This is also the way that the ranks are spelled and appear in the original primary sources, such as SS service records and personnel orders.  Can't get much more official than that. -OberRanks (talk) 21:45, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: And as was recently pointed out to me: a simpler reason: in German, all nouns are capitalized. Kierzek (talk) 02:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Military ranks and titles & MOS 

message: The image on this page is currently being listed for deletion here.  Comments would be welcome. -OberRanks (talk) 21:27, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I received an answer today from HBO that the film "Fatherland" is under copyright with HBO film productions, but also that a screenshot of SS uniforms from the film may be used for academic purposes under fair use laws.  The original nominator of the image for deletion made some strong worded comments that they didn't feel this image was notable ; however, it is cited in a couple of textbooks that the Oberst G.F. insignia was never photographed or filmed on a black uniform.  I think inclusion of a photo of the insignia on a black uniform would benefit the article.  Does anyone else agree? -OberRanks (talk) 17:34, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; it is good for articles, such as this, if examples of collar rank tabs can be seen on a uniform; even if in this case it would be a reproduction for a film. Kierzek (talk) 18:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Would need to submit an undelete image request.  There is some history between me and the original deletion nominator , so I should probably not be the one to do it. -OberRanks (talk) 20:55, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Black uniform O-Grfhr

message: Hello, the correct official designation of Dietrich was surely not SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer und Panzer-Generaloberst der Waffen-SS, but ... und Generaloberst der Waffen-SS – without the Panzer-. Thus, it should also be stated that way in the article. (I only have German references, otherwise I'd add a relevant ref, of course.) Best regards,--Hubon (talk) 17:48, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: His promotion order to the rank does in fact say Panzer-Generaloberst der Waffen-SS as verified in his record at the National Archives and in other original documents from the period. -O.R.Comms 21:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you maybe give us an illustration or anything similar here? It's just hard for me to believe that since I have (secondary) sources at hand that tell a slightly different story, as said before...--Hubon (talk) 22:56, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: His rank is also listed in the reference book "Roll of Infamy" as well as a few other World War II texts.  I will try and create a "Service record of Josef Dietrich" article sometime in the next few months.  My copy of his record is packed away somewhere at the moment. -O.R.Comms 16:57, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Panzer-Generaloberst der Waffen-SS 

message: I don't pretend to know much of anything about Wikipedia Commons, but it seems like they are going after Nazi era photos with a vengeance.  The Daluege photo in this article was clearly cited as coming out of the National Archives SS files, as far as I can remember, which is not under any copyright and is totally open to the public. Researchers photograph and copy things every day out of that record series.  If people are going to transfer these photos to Wiki-Commons, only to then delete them, they should leave them here so we can at least hear about the deletion effort and provide any needed source information.  This one isn't worth it, at least from I read on that other site, since the person deleting it essentially said the source was a lie and wasn't free. -O.R.Comms 19:13, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daluege photo 

message: The patch shown is for Obergruppenfuhrer, not Oberst-Gruppefuhrer (see the photo at the top of the page as a point of comprison.) Am removing.  Cripipper (talk) 12:35, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch; that was apparently a change an ip made recently. I reverted back to Dec. 8, where the correct insignia was displayed. Kierzek (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gorget patch