Talk:Ancient Macedonian language/Archive 3

message: *"Prodromos" may be a Greek/Latin word but it exists in Slavonic also via a variant
What the hell is a Greek/Latin word? Are you afraid to say "Greek" or something? "Dromos" (ΔΡΟΜΟΣ) is the popular word for "street", and "Dromoi" (ΔΡΟΜΟΙ) is its plural. "Pro" means "before", and it's used as a prefix or on its own. What are you chatting about next? 
*Hetairoi = comrade, fellow soldier; Cheta = military company, group, squad; Although not commonly used, the word "Chetar" could be used to refer to a single member of the "Cheta", however more common would be a "Komita" or "Vojnik". Present in modern Greek as "Heteroia" meaning "Company".
"Hetairoi" (plural of "Hetairos") is a Greek word that's even attested in Homer (meaning comrade), and "Hetairia" is its noun form. What you just said is equivalent to saying "Hetairoi: Macedonian->Friends, Greek ->Friendship, Slavic->Fasiufywer234owski, hence a Slavic cognate". Another example for those who are infamiliar with Greek grammar would be "Philosophos, Philosophoi, Philosophia". Someone has intentionally manipulated the tense of those words in order to bring up a "similarity" instead of stating that it's the same damned word. This is why I didn't want to participate from the start, but obviously the hoax was not as obvious to everybody.
As for Macedonian for "death", it is actually "Danos", not "Danom" (or whatever you said), and the Attic-Ionic equivalent is "Thanos" (hence "Thanatos"). Even the word "Macedon" itself is identified as Greek, but the person who compiled that listed conveniently missed it. Nevermind, you can just check Perseus for it (and for all other definitions I gave), it's also attested in Homer. By the way I find the rate of change in your confidence quite interesting. First you give a large list and claim cognates between Macedonian and Slavic Macedonski words, then you realise that we discover that those are in fact simply Slavic words and decide to claim a Slavic-Macedonian linguistic connection. Little by little it is explained to you how none of those words prove anything remotely close to your claims, so the list is eventually reduced to 5 words. I wonder where will this go. In my opinion you should be applying those elimination algorithms before humiliating yourself in public. Miskin 03:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Prodromos is a Greek word, period. SoM, you really shouldn't be editing articles on languages, let alone in an aggressive manner, if you lack basic linguistic expertise. This is a friendly reminder to stick to the topics you are familiar with. Nobody here is interested in what you "believe", your personal beliefs go on your userpage, if you want to share them. Provide the references, or let more proficient editors do the job. dab (ᛏ) 14:14, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

text: no, I think you need a better understanding of "Encyclopedia" -- Just because mainstream linguists haven't realized a link yet does not mean it does not exist, this is eminently possible, but purely a matter of belief, and has no place here. The Internet is big, and you are free to voice your beliefs on a homepage somewhere. On Wikipedia, they are extremely uninteresting, and entirely beside the point. We should only even discuss these things if you could come up with a published linguistic reference. See also WP:NOT dab (ᛏ) 09:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking of the list, I still plan on making a list of which words were actually cognates from Soldier's list, and which are unverified. Those that are not cognates won't be listed. I won't take up much space on this talk page when I do this (if I do this), it will be a simple list. I plan on doing this to silence accusations that anyone is ignoring "Slavonic claims". Though in the future, they will probably be ignored (again, not chauvinism or racism; I would "ignore" claims that ancient Macedonian was a Celtic or Albanian language also). Alexander 007 14:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

text: One more thing: Theathenae claims that the idea that ancient Macedonian was an independent Indo-European language is a "fringe theory". That is a misconception. It is a legitimate theory. I myself would rather go for the Greco-Macedonian hypothesis (not the Greek dialect hypothesis) out of what one might call mathematical probability. But the article has to be fair to the independent theory (which is totally different from any claim that ancient Macedonian was close to Slavonic, Celtic, Germanic, Albanian, or whatever else one might like). Alexander 007 14:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The LIST 

message: As I said earlier, linguistics is a highly fallible science and extremely hypothetical.  Without hard evidence of some sort of script for Slavic prior to these tribes' migration southward from north of the Danube and their subsequent learning of letters (by Cyril and Methodius), then there can be no certainty as to claims between ancient Macedonian and the Slavic tongues.  What can be attested however is the numerous loanwords from Greek to Slavic (as was previously pointed out, drum for dromos = "a road, a path to tread") henceforth giving false cognates.  So finding supposedly common linguistic cognates between Slavic and ancient Macedonian is based on pure wishful thinking and on pseudo-linguistics.  Ancient Macedonian names have no cognates in old or modern Slavic languages (as pertaining to their meaning) for eg.  Philippos = "lover of horses", Drukalos (Drykalos) = "he who is of the wood of the oak" or even "beautiful oak-wood".  For the most part the language was Doric or Aeolic and Slavic was not attested until the 7th C of CE so it makes no sense.  I can find cognates between ancient Greek and Hawaiin however that doesn't mean that the Hawaiins are actually re-settled Greeks who landed there on some magnificent journey to Hades of the Americas (although some may like to think otherwise - what was that fellow's name?, that American who made "Journey of the g'ds"?  I can't remember).  Oh and here are some cognates between Hawaiin and Greek thrown in for good measure:  The first is Hawaiin, the second is Greek and the third the relative meanings in Hawain then Greek separated by a semi-colon.  
Aeeto; Aetos (Hawk; Hawk), Heene or Wahine; Gyne (Female person; woman), Nou-nou; Nous (Mind; Thought), Pehea; Pos (How?; How?), Mana'o; Manthano (to think; I learn), Kahiko; Archaikos (old; olden or ancient/first-born one) and inoa; onoma (name; name).  
Ok ok the last one is a bit far fetched but you get the idea now don't you?  That's all I have to say for now.  Shalom l'olam.
:You underestimate linguistics. The Slavic sound laws are well known. For one thing, unlike Greek, it is a Satem language. If there was any evidence of Slavic or Satem properties of the XMK lexicon, we would note it. There isn't, however. And why should there be? For all we know, the Slavs only came near Macedonia a full millennium later. This is like looking for Spanish etymologies of Quechua words. So, there is neither evidence, nor any sort of circumstantial likelihood. It is really just wishful fantasy, not worth all the time we spent on it here. dab (ᛏ) 09:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Linguistics again! 

message: Therefore why should the modern Macedonian(sic)-slavonic be called Macedonian when it isn't?  I prefer the German etymology of "Mezedonien" which is what the Germans call modern Macedonian(sic)-slavonic and not "Makedonien" which only pertains to the ancient Doric/Aeolic Greek spoken in Macedonia.  The world has a lot to learn still.  Shalom l'olam.
Please remove any references of pictures of weapons on users' webpages on Wikipedia.  This is an encyclopaedia and not a shooting ground.  I wonder what the policy of wikipedia is on offensive symbols.  I have viewed one or two on peoples' homepage.  If they are not removed I shall have to enquire through the editors/administrators.  Shalom l'olam, ve-ahavtah.
:This is beside the point. This article is about the language spoken in the 1st millennium BC. It is a fact that there is a Slavonic language now known as Macedonian language. It is a simple case of disambiguation, and the adequacy of the name is not an issue on this talkpage. I have specifically only this article on my watchlist, but not the Slavonic one, precisely to be spared this kind of discussion. thanks, dab (ᛏ) 14:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Par Excellence Quod est demonstrandum 

message: If anybody out there has spare time and wants to do something constructive for the article, try finding a reference for the etymology of Macedonian izela ("good luck"; in anc. Gk. agathe tuche, I think). I find this word very interesting. If it is from PIE *wesu- (or some such), "good", then cognates would include the Illyrian toponym Veselia, the Gothic word iusila, the Slavonic word veselu, and the ancient Greek word eus (known mostly as a prefix, eu-). If izela is from PIE *wesu-, and if it is native to Macedonian and not a loan from Paionian or Thracian (an Illyrian loan is not as likely , see below why I say this), this one word would have the power to disprove the Greek dialect theory. But there is currently no way to prove whether or not it was a loan, and the etymon may not be PIE *wesu-. So Izela, good luck. Alexander 007 15:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: where is it attested? Hesychius? dab (ᛏ) 16:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure, but you can find it on Perseus as a Macedonian word. There is also on Perseus izelos, "a sea scorpion" (?), probably with a different etymon. Alexander 007 16:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I see -- both are Hesychius;  izela: agathê tuchê (Maced.), Hsch.: izelos: ho thalattios skorpios, Id. (where is our Hesychius list now? Should we make it a subpage? dab (ᛏ) 16:34, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Last time I checked Wiki-source, the content was all but gone (at least, I didn't find it). Archive 2 has some of it. Alexander 007 16:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Izela is not likely to be from Illyrian, because Illyrian had the form as Vesel- or Ves- (cf. Veselia, Vescleves), and even if it lost the v when borrowed by Macedonian, it seems to be a big change from Illyrian vesel- to Macedonian izel- (but not impossible, one might say). If it's a loan, I'm going with Paionian, maybe Thracian. I'll see if Thracian has any attested forms possibly from this root. Alexander 007 19:05, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Izela

message: Bomac, what's your point here? Wikipedia articles have disambiguation notices when there are other articles, which could be expected at this title. The article on XMK could be expected on Macedonian language, hence the dab notice. We have it here at *Ancient* Mac. language for unambiguity. The article on the Slavic langauge could not possibly be expected at a title of "Ancient" Mac. language, hence no dab notice is needed. Does that make sense? Then please don't re-insert the notice, thanks. dab (ᛏ) 10:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: relax, Miskin, this is harmless. Have a look at Talk:Rajput. Having seen this, I am thinking of returning to the "Macedonian" debate to spend some time among civilized and reasonable people. dab (ᛏ) 12:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The disambiguation in this article is unnecessary and should always be removed if added back. A disambiguation is needed in Macedonian language because Macedonian language may indeed refer to the current Slavic language or to the ancient non-Slavic Macedonian language. But Ancient Macedonian language never refers to the current Macedonian language. Alexander 007 04:58, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: disambiguation notice

message: In the "Sample glossary", what's the point of transcribing agkalos instead of ankalos?  It doesn't really help anyone not already thoroughly familiar with the Greek alphabet understand the probable pronunciation... AnonMoos 01:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're interested in who was responsible for the "agk-" transliteration, check this out:. Chronographos and dab insisted on it, while I favored ank-. Alexander 007 18:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought we opted for using the Greek alphabet now, anyway? Come on, anyone embarking on the details of this will know the Greek alphabet, or else can be expected to go and look at Greek alphabet first. dab (ᛏ) 20:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Gamma before kappa

message: It would help if someone brought references describing how many Doric features have been noted in the actual XMK material, excluding for now the Doricish writings found in Macedon, because as noted by Rhomiopoulou (and others no doubt) Doric Greek may have been a second language/dialect. Considerable differences between Doric and Macedonian on the other hand are readily apparent and already known. Pisani hypothesizes that mageiros entered Doric from Macedonian earlier in the Migration period; Pisani realizes that  if mageiros was native to Doric, and if it is indeed from PIE *magh-, it would have to be macheiros or some such (PIE *gh-->ch is the rule in the known Greek dialects, including Doric, unless I'm mistaken). My old Liddel & Scott's has another etymology for mageiros, suggesting a derivation from PIE *mag-, "to knead, fashion", in which case it poses no problem within Greek phonetics and a proposed Macedonian origin would be needless (however, I'm kinda going for a derivation from PIE *magh-, like Pisani proposes). Alexander 007 21:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This text has appeared verbatim in several discussion groups. Was it copied from somewhere? Andreas 00:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Doric stuff

message: Hello! I see that a well-intentioned editor has inserted the Greek language template in this article. While I certainly understand why hu put it in, I must say that because scholars are still not actually certain how close a relationship existed between the ancient Macedonian language and the ancient Greek language, this article is not really an appropriate place for that template. That's not to say that there wasn't a close relationship, just that we don't know. So I shall remove it. Cheers! Babajobu 13:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The idea that ancient Macedonian was not part of the continuum of ancient Greek idioms is a minority view. And, whatever its relationship to Greek, Macedonian is important to the discipline of the history of the Greek language. The template has been restored accordingly.--Theathenae 13:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...not convincing. And to list it, not merely as a descendant of Proto-Greek, but as a dialect of ancient Greek, is unacceptable given that there is no consensus that ancient Macedonian was a dialect of ancient Greek. Alexander 007 13:35, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Can you at least bring several non-Greek references on ancient Greek that list Ancient Macedonian as a Greek dialect, you know, the kind of book on ancient Greek one might find at your average library in the U.S. or UK? Why is Macedonian always missing in the books I've seen? Bring 'em on. You need references to establish your consensus. This goes out to anyone reading this page, whether in Idaho or Afghanistan. Alexander 007 13:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only reason anyone other than very specialized scholars cares whether Ancient Macedonian is classified among the Greek dialects or not is the peculiar notion that the affiliation of a language spoken in a certain area 2500 years ago is relevant to current ethnic identities and political disputes. This fallacy is at the root of many edits on both sides of this discussion. So I would suggest making a special effort to avoid any provocations. --Macrakis 21:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are all types of people across the world more-or-less interested in this debate (thus, they "care"), not specialized scholars or people with ethnic/political motivations. I can imagine a 15-year-old Japanese kid in Tokyo reading this article, and wondering ("caring") what kind of language the ancient Macedonians really spoke. My hypothetical Japanese kid would not be disturbed if the ancient Macedonian language turned out to be a dialect of ancient Greek, he would in fact be relieved to finally know the situation---but he would be irritated (knowing Wikipedia policies, and desiring an objective article) by attempts to place a Greek language template including ancient Macedonian as a dialect of ancient Greek, when there is no such consensus among scholars. There are "multiple sources" that promote the Greek dialect hypothesis (to quote Theathenae), but there is no consensus---there are "multiple sources" for all three of the basic hypotheses. Since there is no consensus, adding ancient Macedonian to a Greek template with the simple note that this is "disputed" creates the false impression that the consensus is that ancient Macedonian was a dialect of ancient Greek, but this is "disputed" by some. Alexander 007 04:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agree with Alexander. As a non-Greek, non-Macedonian, and as someone with only a passing interest in any of these issues, I would personally be annoyed by a template that suggests that Macedonian was a Greek dialect if, in fact, there is no consensus on this. The debate should be carefully characterized, without sticking a big advertizement for one particular conclusion onto the page. Babajobu 05:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: In response to this edit by Fs (which probably represents the attitude of a number of people), I can only say, "Huh?" The modern linguistic/historical debate dates back to a time when (at least the 19th century, unless I'm mistaken; will verify), according to Greek nationalists, the modern ethnic group known as Macedonians/Macedonian Slavs didn't even exist. Nor is the debate kept alive by the Rep. of Macedonia camp. The debate continues because of the sparsity of the evidence. At the time Fs wrote that comment, the Greek dialect hypothesis (as in the current version of the article) was well-represented. As the article develops, all the valid hypotheses will be further detailed. Alexander 007 04:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed that comment on purpose just after was posted, to avoid starting a flamewar and now you dig it up from the changelog. Ok, since you brought it up, I find it really sad that a page full of ancient greek and greek derived words, from texts easily read by those that can read ancient greek, to not have the greek dialect explanation _at least_ as the primary one. Anyone that knows what's going on here would understand behind all the big talk presented - and the sad fact of pissing the whole science of Linguistics as I just noticed above in this page - that what is hidden is radical nationalism of Greeks and Macedonians. I'm Greek and I'm happy to call you Macedonians here, hope it proves the fact I respect what you want to be called. I've known for long, reasons that may have made some Greeks rush into radical nationalism (it involves local politics of the early nineties that I've posted in Macedonian related articles) and I'm trying hard to ease spirits on both sides of the fence. I'm sorry if you think I'm _de facto_ a radical nationalist to you simply because of the fact I'm Greek because in that case, better not discuss this further. If you don't please try to see beyond, and realize how funny it is a page full of ancient greek to have the ancient greek dialect case in some weird spot in the middle. --Fs 10:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a misunderstanding here. The glossary shows: some words that are plain Greek; many words that are similar to Greek words, but different enough to suggest the Greco-Macedonian hypothesis of Macedonian as a language adjacent to Greek on the Indo-European language tree, but not necessarily a dialect of ancient Greek; other words have no Greek correspondances. Taken together, the evidence does not obviously point to a Greek dialect as the term is understood. The dialect hypothesis can be mentioned first in the order rather than second as it is now, but unless the references for consensus are brought, there is no justification to drastically rewrite the article so that it overemphasizes the dialect hypothesis. Be careful before you make claims of pseudo-science. If anything, taking some Doric inscriptions as the ultimate evidence and ignoring all the other linguistic data is pseudo-science. I have not alluded to you being a nationalist nor have I made an issue of your ethnicity. It appears rather that you are acting on good faith, but you have the impression that the glossary obviously supports the dialect hypothesis. Actually, it suggests even more the language hypothesis. There is no consensus among the scientists, so claims of pseudo-science are completely unfounded. Alexander 007 10:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hello Alexander. I believe we can lower the tone with each other. I have a question. How about the grammar of ancient macedonian texts? I'm lost in "scholars haven't decided yet" "arguments". Is it that different from ancient greek? I'd _honestly_ like to find out since I'm not a linguist or anything close to it. --Fs 10:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Virtually nothing is known of ancient Macedonian grammar, because there are no surviving passages that are clearly written in the language. As we've seen, the Doric-like inscriptions are not agreed to represent the ancient Macedonian language. So excluding the Doric texts, the evidence does not obviously suggest a dialect. The article has a summary of some of the evidence, and the various hypotheses present in the scientific community---not the nationalist community. The article, as you may have noticed, does not discuss the idea that Macedonian was a Slavic language, because that is pseudo-science. If the article was written by nationalist Macedonians, wouldn't you expect to see the claim of Macedonian being a Slavic language included? But interestingly...it is not.Alexander 007 10:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. Well, my non-linguistic common sense tells me now that I haven't heard of a language using the greek alphabet and at the same time not using greek grammar. More certainly I haven't heard of a language with greek words written with the greek alphabet not using greek grammar. I get the notion it's easier to assume another language with the same alphabet and words but with fundamentally different grammar, if one is coming from a Latin alphabet background since it's common there. But I've always felt alone in this world by using this weird greek alphabet</feeling> and I honestly can't find it very possible we are talking of a fundamentally different language here in its grammar. OK, I don't believe I can contribute anything further in this talk since I'm not a linguist or anything close to it. I appreciate your patience. I'm tired of both greek and macedonians radical nationalists flamewaring about the naming issue all over the net, but I believe it's obvious if an article is to talk about what ancient macedonians talked, to assume the greek hypothesis, obviously first. --Fs 11:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The Lucani, who spoke an Oscan language, used the Greek alphabet. There are inscriptions in Thracian (see Thracian language) which were also written in the Greek alphabet, but not in the Greek language. You can't expect each group to invent their own alphabet, when a well-crafted Greek alphabet was already available next door. Alexander 007 11:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What about words? --Fs 11:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nevermind, I don't see this going further with no more facts presented, on what Macedonians talked and wrote and I don't think I'm the right person to talk about it. --Fs 11:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

text:  I see that the evidence does not support the dialect hypothesis. But I find your statement troubling, Alexander, because your wording seems to imply that it does support the language hypothesis, which it also doesn't. You probably had no such intention, I am just pointing out that your wording has that effect. Furthermore, I just feel like I must state two things. First of all, it is perfectly conceivable that Macedonian and Greek could have split together from the rest of their linguistic group, and developed their differences later, although I must admit, I am more likely to admit that Greek split first, and Macedonian lost its aspiration together with the rest of the group, before also splitting. More importantly, I find the language/dialect debate besides the point. What is the criterion for being a language? A language has been famously defined as 'a dialect with an army and a navy'. Mutual inteligibility is no criterion. The dialects of Chinese are not mutually inteligible, yet we call them dialects. Norwegian and Swedish are largely mutually inteligible, yet we call them languages. Historical sources indicate that Macedonian was largely uninteligible to speakers of, say, Attic (while Doric, for instance, was largely inteligible). This however is no reason to call it a separate language. I am inclined to call it a language myself (albeit a very closely related language, if not the one language closest to Greek than any other). However, I trully fail to see the point of lengthy arguments on whether it was a dialect or a language. Much better to state that it was 'a dialect or language, closely related to Greek, which was, however, probably not inteligible to Greeks, based on historical sources' Or that's how I feel about it, at any rate. Druworos 00:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: "A language is a dialect with an army and etc."---I agree. See Ancient Macedonian military. Alexander 007 03:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point being that Macedonian is a language because Macedon was independent. I suppose that can be agreed upon, yes. But still, I think it would be more useful to place emphasis on whether it was inteligible by Greeks, not on whether it was a dialect or language. And the evidence seems to suggest that it wasn't inteligible. And I insist upon this, because it would be more meaningful as evidence on the relation of Macedonian and Greek in classical antiquity, than to, somewhat arbitrarily, call it a dialect or a language. Druworos 21:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I am sure there are lots of people curious about the affiliation of Ancient Macedonian, like that hypothetical Japanese kid.  I was talking about the people who care -- who are invested in the result.  And I agree that the Greek language template is out of place here. --Macrakis 17:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

text: 'Tis a minor quibble, but I must insist: from the American Heritage Dictionary: care --v. --intr. 1. To have a strong feeling or opinion; be concerned or interested.---My Japanese kid is indeed concerned and interested, therefore he cares, but not the kind of care you had in mind, which however is only one definition of care. I contrast this to Ice Cube, who (I'm just guessing) probably doesn't care in the true sense of the phrase. Alexander 007 17:44, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  As per my previous comment, my interest roughly approximates that of the Japanese kid, and I think it's fair enough to say that "I care". Babajobu 17:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Greek language template

message: :...suggested by I. I. Russu (1938) and A. Meillet (1965)
Antoine Meillet died in 1936. :-) bogdan 12:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meillet's death 

message: Although the article mentions the schollars (although not all) that support the "Ancient Greek dialect" hypothesis and mentions Antoine Meillet supporting "Graeco-Macedonian Group" there is no mention of those supporting the "Independent Palaeo-Balkan language" hypothesis. Can somebody please add them together with references? Furthermore it would be good if one can add links from the article text to the references so that we know which author supports which hypothesis.
: and  are very good for things like this; One can link directly to a bibliography. Septentrionalis 18:33, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of their names can already be found. One example: if someone proposes that Macedonian was "an Illyrian dialect mixed with Greek" (in other words, suggesting that it may have been an Illyrian language with Greek later superimposed on it), then that scholar is of the "independent Paleo-Balkan language" school, since Illyrian is rarely grouped with Greek. See also Russu and Meillet, Borza, Julius Pokorny, etc.Alexander 007 23:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: see:  --84.164.224.237 15:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't view the Java app on that page. Could you give a sketch what their tree actually looks like? - That said, whatever they say, it won't radically change the situation. The fact that one group of scholars opt for this or that view won't change the fact that it's disputed and that everybody is aware there's extremely little hard evidence either way. Lukas (T.|@) 17:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: they classify Greek and  Macedonian as "Hellenic". This possibility is mentioned in the article. It is well discussed, and discussed again, in the talk archives. Nothing to see here. dab (ᛏ) 17:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is old news. In fact, this is some of the oldest news we've discussed in the article. That tree does not present Macedonian as a dialect of Greek, rather it shows two languages---Greek and Macedonian---branching out from Proto-Greek. See also below, under ==Liste==. It's too bad some fellas (IP address 84. 164 etc.) can't even interpret a language tree :-) Alexander 007 18:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

text: if you call it "Greek" or "Hellenic" is pretty much a matter of terminology. The question is, "what is Hellenic" by this definition. By some hypotheses, it's Proto-Greek. By others, it's Proto-Indo-European. An intermediate position would be, "Proto-Graeco-Armenian". I tend towards this latter view, i.e. if Macedonian is genetically "Hellenic", so is Phrygian and Armenian. But as Alex says, Old News. Read it up in the talk archives. dab (ᛏ) 19:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A language is "genetically Hellenic"? What do genetics have to do with the structure of a language? Dbachmann should start a new article on the Genetics of Language and point out, of course, how it is an hypothesis. Can we create a Wikijoker site where he can keep such 'pearls' comming thick and fast? Politis 20:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: as I said in a recent edit summary, don't bother if you don't have a clue. I appreciate sarcasm but I'm afraid in this case you have really sunk yourself, especially considering the "native" templates you have on your userpage. My, my, "native" knowledge of both the English and the Greek tongue. Still, as a free hint, genetic is, correctly, a disambiguation page. dab (ᛏ) 20:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep them coming! Great fun! I followed the link you freely offered and ended up with 'proto-language' and guess what? there was no mention of genetic. But just in case you are being serious (it is difficlt to guess on anonymous sites where you could really be a gardner at the Taj Mahal and me a bee-keeper in Sardinia) then please take no notice of my comments but a bit of research might be useful. Politis 20:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Μην τρίβεις αλάτι στην πληγή - let it go... a bit o' googling reveals that university websites use the phrase "genetically related language", so we can conclude that the word "genetic" is widely used that way in high circles. --Latinus 21:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, anyone can make mistakes - look at this edit summary :p --Latinus 21:01, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Dbachmann is absolutely correct in his use of the term "genetic". In linguistics it means derived from a parent language through regular language transmission, not more and not less. Politis, please be a bit more careful in judging things you have obviously no expert knowledge about. Lukas (T.|@) 22:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia muss alle bedeutenden Ansichten darstellen. Leider denken einige Professoren dass alter Makedonisch nicht Griechisch war. Sehest du diese Seite... --Latinus 22:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Careful now, 84.164..., you are already beyond WP:3RR, and I'm not going to tolerate disruptive ranting on talk pages for long when it's combined with revert warring. Take a break. By the way, if your reason for using German is to exclude dab from the discussion, that's probably not a very smart idea. Lukas (T.|@) 22:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lieber Asteraki, resorting to calling Dbachmann und Alexander 007 "propagandists" is a sign of desperation on your part. Latinus is correct in realizing that it is a matter of caution and NPOV: ancient Macedonian being an independent descendant of Proto-Greek is one (rather widely held) theory. Other serious theories are that it may have been simply a Greek dialect or that it did not even descend from Proto-Greek. Alexander 007 22:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the anon is disputing mentioning the Greco-Armenian theory. I must say, googling for it in the .edu namespace yields only one result and it does not mention Ancient Macedonian. I'm sure that Dbachmann did have sources when he wrote the article, but I think it'd be better to link mentioning this theory to a footnote with the actual source, so that we can say so-and-so says that - it's not propaganda as we're not presenting it as a statement of fact. I'm certain that this anon will not be the last person to object to mentioning it (as much as I love the sound of this theory - it may mean that the Greeks are no longer an "έθνος ανάδελφο"). --Latinus 22:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's some good it has, at least. :-) Yes, as my last edit to the article shows, I'd for the moment agree that the Greco-Armenian idea should not be particularly emphasized. The rest of the edit conflict was about the wording of the disambig notice on the top, and I'd very much insist on keeping that as neutral as possible; there's absolutely no need to mention any of the specific theories anywhere near there. Lukas (T.|@) 23:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It is only natural that contributors exchanging views, often experience problems of communicating the register and the tone of their communications - especially on anonymous sites where anyone around the world can contribute (and that is great). So it is best to ask questions. My question to Dbachmann is, what did you mean by stating above: "User Politis [...] His anonymous sidekick switches to German for some random insults". What do you mean by 'his anonymous sidekick' and who is beiing 'insulting'? I think that is a fair question (forwarded to dab's talk page). Perhaps you can also translate the German so that we may all understand... Politis 16:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By your "sidekick" he obviously meant User:84.164.241.167. Nothing about yourself. "Sidekick" in the sense of "a close companion or comrade" (American Heritage Dict.), or also "someone who pops up whenever he's needed to support you". Cool down, man. The German statements aren't really worth much attention. Lukas (T.|@) 16:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that Griko should be in the Doric section as well. --Latinus 22:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree.Druworos 16:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ancient Macedonian, a dialect of Greek

message: *Hellenic (Proto-Greek language)
**(Greek)
***Mycenaean
***(Greek) -Attic
****Cappadocian
****Koine Greek
****Medieval Greek
****Pontic
****Romano-Greek (rge)
****Yevanic
***Doric
****Tsakonian
**(Macedonian (†))
***Ancient Macedonian
--84.164.224.237 17:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that Griko should be in the Doric section as well. --Latinus 22:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree.Druworos 16:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Liste 

message: what is it with all the "Attic" tags in the glossary? Hesychius doesn't etymologize, he gives translations into "Attic" (Koine). We have to distinguish between merely quoting Hesychius' translation, and making a claim (Wikipedia's) of the XMK and the Attic term being cognate. "Attic" should only apply to the latter case. dab (ᛏ) 13:17, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: my point exactly, what do you mean? dab (ᛏ) 11:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Koine Greek and XMK co-existed for a time. It's very unrealistic to think that a week or a month or even a year before or after Koine Greek was instituted, XMK vanished in a puff of air. The beginning of Koine Greek is dated back to ca 330--300 BC, and I don't think you will find an appreciable number of scholars who will dogmatically say that XMK went extinct in 340 BC, 330 BC, 301 BC, 290 BC, 280 BC, 270 BC or thereabouts. Alexander 007 20:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Miskin, Hesychius was not choosing Attic for linguistic reasons. He was just giving meanings in his standard language, as we would do in English. Did anyone get my original point? We need to say "Att." when we make a linguistic comparison, and we shouldn't say "Att." when we're merely quoting Hesychius. dab (ᛏ) 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I misunderstood your observation, see my comment below. Miskin 17:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Attic"

message: What do the references say on when ancient Macedonian became extinct? Do the references agree within a certain window of time (ca 100 AD), or is it very spread out as if they have no clue (180 BC---300AD even)? I mean the extinction of the language, not necessarily the ethnicity, because I know of many cases where ethnic groups outlive the extinction of their original language for awhile (see for example the Manchu of China). By the way, try to respond with references and citations, not guesses and inferences. I would guess that XMK could have went extinct as early as 50 BC or earlier — or centuries later —  but I have no citations besides Linguist List and its broad "early first millenium AD" quote. Alexander 007 00:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Extinction

message: I am not a linguist but isn't weird that the φ to β, θ to δ, and χ to γ, happen to Modern Greek dialects like Cypriot Greek, especially when they are followed by liquids. For example: άδρωπος (human), γρουσός (golden), έβριξα (I freaked out), εγρίστηκα (I am smothered, comes from anointed). Compare it to κεβλιπύρης, Β(ί)λιππος, Β(ε)ρενίκη, Βρύγες.
--Kupirijo 03:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Aspirates before liquids/nasals

message: The article Ancient Macedonian dialect asserts that the tongue was the Greek dialect, but it obviously talks about the same issue. (Maybe it originated as result of ongoing Greco-Macedonian naming dispute, but it's being used as a tool in it anyway). In any case, they should be merged and PoVs sufficiently toned down. As a result of (foreseen) compromise, this article could maybe also be moved to Ancient Macedonian so to avoid language/dialect dispute. Duja 16:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm of the same opinion. The first half is almost identical, with exactly the same ample citation by Masson. As for the second paragraph, it doesn't even speak of Ancient Macedonian but of the present Macedonian language.--Aldux 19:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge 

message: Since it was me who originally put that in: my reason was that Old Church Slavonic is sometimes, also called "Old Macedonian", according to that article, and "Ancient Macedonian" and "Old Macedonian" might be confusable to the occasional reader. Not that I'd find it extremely important, though. Lukas (T.|@) 17:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: sorry, I didn't realize this (because I never heard OCS being referred to as "Old Macedonian", although I suppose that OCS being the 9th c. dialect of Thessaloniki, it does make some sense) -- by all means feel free to add it back. dab (ᛏ) 17:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  dab notice to [[Old Church Slavonic]]? 

message: :Moved here from anon's talk page, as the IP's have been changing Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:14, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, before you go on making your additions, would you care to answer me here on talk please? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I'll revert for the moment - I don't want to edit-war, so please feel free to add it back in for the time being, if and when you will discuss your changes here, okay? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So Fut.Perf@Sunrise, I guess what you're stating here, is that the anon is just stuffing WP:BEANS up his nose, for illustrating how influenced his language is by Greek too. Right? (I was told by a German friend, your name is a joke, but I guess I'll never find out why...) NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 19:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How? You got somebody to tell you this much, but he wouldn't explain more? How cruel of him. Well, he's actually right, but don't expect too much haha. More later. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions of Slavic cognates 

message: At present the article says the following:
:[XMK] is believed to have survived until early in the Common Era, possibly as late as the 5th century AD.
Is there a source for this, because Encyclopædia Britannica, 15th edition, , volume 7, page 620 asserts that:
:By the 5th century BC the Macedonians had adopted the Greek language and had forged a unified kingdom.
Opinions? If the first quote is unsourced, then I think it should be replaced with Britannica's. --Telex 18:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have considerable doubts regarding the first statement, but almost certainly the Macedonian dialect/language was still spoken to a level at the time of Alexander the Great, or else it would be hard to understand certain statements present in some of our original sources.--Aldux 19:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't think "Hellenize" is the appropriate word here. How about Atticize? The same Britannica article I'm quoting above refers to a people of unknown ethnic origins who called themselves Macedonians. So, for all we know, they could have been ethnically Greek. It is the view of some that they spoke Doric Greek (if so, then Griko and Tsakonian are the closest surviving relatives of XMK), so they were already ethnically Greek. If they were ethnically Greek, then it would be easier for them to adjust to Attic Greek, which may explain how smoothly their distinct language/dialect became extinct. --Telex 20:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahemm, just for the record, boys and girls, I didn't introduce the 5th century figure, I was just taking it over from Politis. Maybe I should have double-checked at the time. Honestly, I'm now too lazy to dive into the edit history to find out if it had been there earlier. I certainly don't feel any particular attachment to that figure. Lukas (T.|@) 21:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody's got to explain how the Macedonian dialect, if it is such, extinguished in the 5th century when the pella katadesmos is from the 4th or 3rd century BC.--Aldux 22:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know it wasn't you Lucas, this is why I removed the anon's edit along with his insult. I know who it is though and I know it's a POV. Telex I've been using the word "Hellenized" metaphorically, in order to be politically correct towards the people who might not want to see the obvious. Anyway nobody suggested that the Macedonian dialect died in the 5th cenutry BC, that has no basis. Miskin 22:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The material was added accidentally by User:LukasPietsch, when he altered an edit by User:Politis. Check edit history for March 2006. 69.111.76.199 22:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Hesychius' entries on Macedonian words were taken directly from the 5th c. BC lexicographer Amerias, whose work 'glossai' was most likely to be found in the library of Alexandria. Hence Decius' assumption becomes moot. Miskin 13:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: fair enough. Can you establish the 5th c. date for Amerias (his entry is unaware of his lifetime), and can you establish that all XMK in Hesychius are from Amerias? Or, if there are any other, later sources for XMK entries in Hes.? I do suppose extinction of XMK was much earlier than the 5th c. AD, but I am still open to the possibility that it lingered on until the 1st c. BC or so (since language death usually takes a couple of centuries). dab (ᛏ) 15:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seriously though, you can delete this comment if you want, but Decius apparently was not the one who brought up the glosses of Hesychius as indications of a late Macedonian survival. It was in fact Dbachmann: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=next&oldid=11907894 . Nor do I recall Decius or Alexander 007 ever arguing that those Hesychius glosses prove a late survival; and from what I remember about Decius and Alex, they really did not give a shit how late the language survived, since neither Decius or Alex would have anything to gain from a late survival, since neither Decius or Alex were Macedonian Slavs. It is annoying to see monkeys attributing arguments and "points" to Decius or Alex which he never advanced. At least, link incidents where we see those users arguing such points, otherwise don't misrepresent people on the internet. 68.126.251.215 16:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: what, pray, would Macedonian Slavs 'gain' from late XMK survival? And what would I, being a non-Macedonian non-Slav, 'gain' from that? I may have made a mistake there, judging XMK survival from the date of Hesychius, that is precisely why I am inquiring about Hesychius' sources: Who is this Amerias and what portion of Hesychius is due to him? dab (ᛏ) 16:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: If that anon vandal is in fact Decius/Alexander_007, I'll roll on the floor laughing. Miskin 11:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You just proved that you're not Decius/Alexander_007; not because you broke all retardedness records, but because your last pathetic rambling showed that you don't know things that he did. I love this rebel internet-gangsta attitude; if you notice my contributions you'll find out I've been quite bored lately, so please keep it coming. Miskin 23:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extinction 2

message: It was me that made the change here .
The article says: "Others contend that Doric Greek was a second or third dialect spoken in ancient Macedon." If by "others" is meant to be Romiopoulou (1980) then how is it possible to contend something that was discovered in 1986, published in 1993, discussed by  Masson in 1996 and others between 1994 - 2005 (i.e. Brixhe-Panayotou, O'Neil)? Is it C. Brixhe and A. Panayotou (1994)? If so, where that "second or third dialect" comes from? Ninio 21:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wording

message: Can anybody check the accuracy of this summary:
:"As to Macedonian  = Greek , Claude BrixheClaude Brixhe, "Un «nouveau» champ de la dialectologie grecque: le macédonien", in: A. C. Cassio (ed.), Katà diálekton. Atti del III Colloquio Internazionale di Dialettologia Greca (A.I.O.N., XIX), Napoli 1996, 35-71. suggests that it is a later development: The letters do not designate voiced stops, i.e. [], but voiced fricatives, i.e. [], due to a devoicing of the voiceless fricatives [] (= Classical Attic [])."
It does not seem to agree with what the same author writes two years earlier on the same topic, in Brixhe/Panayiotou (1994: 218f.). If I understand them correctly, they say that words like "Berenika" are in fact authentic representatives from a language that had been separate from Greek since a time when they still had the inherited *bh, *dh, *gh, but that later Macedonian Greek might have acquired some new instances of /b,d,g/ corresponding to Greek /ph,th,kh/ by way of analogy, and after Greek /b,d,g,ph,th,kh/ had shifted to /v,δ,γ,f,θ,x/. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to my knowledge, this summary is accurate. I am not in a position to know if the the specific author had written something else before. But these differences do not justify Macedonian been a separate language from Greece. Similar developments can be seen in Aeolic Greek as well. In addition, the pronouncation of 'β' as 'φ' alone, would not be a distinctive characteristic of a separate language, even if we did not similar cases in other languages/dialects. u said: later Macedonian Greek might have acquired some new instances of /b,d,g/ corresponding to Greek /ph,th,kh/ by way of analogy, and after Greek /b,d,g,ph,th,kh/ had shifted to /v,δ,γ,f,θ,x/: i am not sure if i can understand this. Greek /b,d,g,ph,th,kh/ shifted to /v,δ,γ,f,θ,x/ during the hellenistic age (always according to Erasmus). so, at that time, the Macedonian language had already long ago stopped been spoken and so, such new instances could not had been acquired by an already extinct language/dialect. according to what we know, even before the reign of Philip II of Macedon the ancient Macedonians were speaking Attic (unless someone finally provides those "legendary" citations that A.Mac. continued to be spoken by the early centuries of the Common Era and may at the end have survived only among a few individuals and fell out of favor and became relegated to the remote inland areas-this last request for citation will be added right away). Hectorian 04:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for clarification 

message: Okay, I went and checked the literature. Here's the result:
*The current section on the various interpretations is very closely based on the state-of-the-art report in Brixhe/Panayiotou (1994). (We should clarify that a bit in the text). This, in turn, heavily draws upon the earlier state-of-the-art report by Katicic (1976), apparently the standard work on the topic. This is where the "agnostic" view comes from. We can safely take that as the mainstream.
*Brixhe/Panayiotou themselves then go on cautiously arguing in favour of a rather complex and sophisticated language mixture scenario, where however the upshot is that Macedonia had become predominantly Greek-speaking by classical times. They raise the question, however, whether that Greek dialect is really what we should refer to as "Ancient Macedonian". Basically, what the later Greek collectors of "glossai" called Macedonian may not in fact have been a unified linguistic entity at all. I'm not yet sure how to incorporate this in the article (and I must admit my French is not too good.)
*I then went on checking the secondary/tertiary literature to see what the "consensus" or "majority" was in the wider field: general histories of Greek, compendia and specialist encyclopedias of ancient languages, and so on. I've seen:
**A. Meillet & M. Cohen (1952), Les langues du monde;
**A. Klose (1987), Languages of the world: a multi-lingual concordance of languages;
**J.P. Mallory / D.Q.Adams (1997), Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture;
**G. Horrocks (1997), Greek: A history of the language and its speakers
**A. Dalby (1998), Dictionary of languages;
**B. Joseph (2001), "Ancient Greek", in Facts about the world's major languages: an encyclopedia of the world's major languages, past and present;
**H. Haarmann (2002), Lexikon der untergegangenen Sprachen ['Dictionary of extinct languages']
**O. Masson (2003), in Oxford Classical Dictionary
**R. Woodard (2004), The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages;
*Result: with the exception of Masson, all these works firmly maintain the "agnostic" view, agreeing that the question about the exact nature of Macedonian isn't decided and probably can't be decided at all. All of the more recent works seem to come to this conclusion based on the standard references of Brixhe/Panayiotou and Katicic - these are invariably the principal sources cited.
*So, there is no doubt that there is a very strong consensus in the wider field of Greek and Indo-Europeanist studies, until today, that the issue is undecided and all the existing older theories must be taken seriously on an equal basis. However, after reading Brixhe/Panayiotou and that short cautious summary by Masson, I come away with the impression that there might (!) be a trend (!) among a smaller circle of experts that goes cautiously towards a more "Greek" view. 
*I'm not yet at all certain about this latter finding. I believe the main emphasis of the article should still follow the established consensus-about-no-consensus as embodied in the standard reference handbooks. What's good enough for the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages (2004) is good enough for us. However, it might be feasible, after clearly presenting this "agnostic" state-of-the-art summary, to then go on and present Brixhe/Panayiotou and Masson in a bit mmore detail, sort of assuming they represent more of the cutting edge. Maybe that Garrett guy too. But I would only be prepared to do that in collaboration with one or two other competent linguists. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Checked sources

message: If we are talking about a seperate language, then it got assimilated. but if we are talking about a dialect, i think that the word 'absorbed' is the most suitable. a dialect preserving many characteristics with the standard form of the language, can loose them, and become identical to that standard form. The dialect continues to exist, without its basic characteristics. but if we say assimilated, we mean that the Ancient Mac. language ceased to exists and was replaced by Koene. the most commonly accepted theory is that the ancient greek dialects changed somehow during the hellenistic era; changed their characteristics they did not share with koene. thus, they did not got assimilated, since they lost only the characteristics they did not share with Koene (and those characteristics were few compared to those they preserved). not very important revert, but i think that the previous wording was better. Hectorian 04:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Absorbed vs assimilated 

message: The note above the lead directing users to modern (Slavic) Macedonian begins: "For the modern, unrelated, Slavic language..." In fact, these are both Indo-European languages. They are related. Can we find better wording? Jd2718 00:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, Wikipedia is really run by the Elders of Zion. Our agents are at present hunting down and terminating user 69.106.205.63. It is true that Slavic and XMK are related via PIE, of course. The point is that their sharing the same name is not due to any relationship but merely to a geographical coincidence. We might indeed try to find a better wording for this. dab (ᛏ) 12:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We could try:   "For the modern, Slavic language..." or "For the modern Slavic language called Macedonian..." or "For the more distantly related Slavic language..." or "...also called Macedonian..."  I'd vote for the first, but many things might work here. And there could be other ideas. But as we know that the languages are related, they should not be called unrelated. Jd2718 20:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: You forgot to mention the Epsilons! •NikoSilver• 12:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Dbachmann was right. It is the Elders of Zion. I am Agent Židovský. My address is Na Jezerce 4, Nusle | Praha 4, 6121-2043. For you slow-minded people, that means I am in Prague, where I last saw 007 packing his Meerschaum. I am appalled that the complaints of Jd2718 continue to be ignored on this page. I know 007 only ignored it because he was an asshole on his high horse, and he wanted somebody else to do it. Just like he wants someone to archive this talk page already. 69.106.107.162 03:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unrelated?