Talk:Lebanon/Archive 1

message: Perhaps we should add a section of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis to this page. It is a major event in Lebanon history.
Also, my apologies for botching up some discussion pages and user talk pages. I'm having trouble figuring everything out.
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"By early 1976, the war was going poorly for the Maronites BLA!!, and Syria sent 40,000 troops into the country to prevent them from being overrun; that Baathist Syrians were fighting against Palestinian forces was and remains ironic.":Why did the Baathists back the Maronites? Why is this ironic?
::Syria originally backed the Maronites simply because they did not want Israel to get involved, which they feared might happen in the wake of a Maronite defeat.  It's ironic, because the Maronites later turned to Israel anyway (sort of), and fought against the Syrian military from 1978 onwards. David Cannon 22:46, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, but it's clearly the case that the 1982 debacle was instrumental in building support for Hezbullah, whatever you may think of that organization. Tim Bray 22:23, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Tim, you should probably look at the Lebanese Civil War and History of Lebanon articles too to make sure there is not too much overlap. Jayjg (talk) 04:30, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Why do we sometimes call the country "The Lebanon"? Adambisset 22:37, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Small Question

message: It is a dialect.  However, those who argue that it is a language do not call it "Lebanese".  They identify it as Levantine_Arabic.  Either way, "Lebanese" is not a language.Yuber 01:17, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lebanese is not a language 

message: I wanna know how come the name for the revolution that happened in leb recently have been called the name "Cedar Revolution", this name has been given by U.S. officials, not lebanese!! Lebanese do call it Intifada of Independence, that's a fact! should it be named the way lebanese call it or what western medias prefer to call?
:The most popular term for it in the English-speaking world is "Cedar Revolution".  Yes, Lebanese do not call it that, but this is the English Wikipedia.Yuber(talk) 18:23, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's best to keep the title "Cedar Revolution." I personally think if someone uses the term "Intifada of Independence," the general public will automatically think of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when they hear the word "intifada."--Gramaic 00:46, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sadly it seems that the term "intifada" is pushed by media to be linked with Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the term "initifada" refers to the ppl own wakeup call against pressure, mistreatement and discrimination. To be fair, just and objective you should put both in the title! be open for christ's sake!!! --Jean 22:08, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Cedar Revolution" !!! why? 

message: Apparently, Lebanon was not a baren desert some 5000 years ago. Human, as destructive as we are were responsible for the sorry state that country is in. This is according to a book called The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight by Thom Hartmann. A couple of quotes are available here that demonstrate the difference the 5000 years have brought.  I think, if someone have read this book, its worth adding a paragraph that highlight this historical information.
:i don't understand your statement. Lebanon is far to be a "baren desert". Although there is obviously an hydric stress, the situation is far from being as bad as in Israel and Jordan (ever been to the snow covered Mt Lebanon ?). Though it is true that massive deforrestation happened in the last 5000 yrs, it is not specific to Lebanon (where did it not happen where humans settled massively ?). 
:Furthermore, connection with your link (which is actually a forum post, not to be considered as a reliable link) is not obvious as the post is focusing on the "fertile crescent", mentioning only Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.
:Thus, I don't say that this is not an issue, but it is not at all a lebanon-specific issue. Would be interesting to develop it in a article such as "Environmental Issues in Middle East", or "Human caused environmental changes", whatever... Kekel 06:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Environmental destruction 

message: I've just started this new article that talks about the massacre that took place in Damour, Lebanon during the Lebanese Civil War. I thought that the people who work with this article would also like to work and edit the article Damour massacre. --Gramaic | Talk 09:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks equitor. The reason I'm currently writing about the massacre that took place in Damour, is because this is one of the events in Lebanon I'm more familiar with. By the way, Silent Music (whatever you call yourself), you stated that "you think it would be more appropriate if I placed a section on massacres and listed them instead of detailing one of these." Then go create and start more articles about various different massacres that took place in Lebanon. Who's stopping you? Wikipedia can sure use more good contributors. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 00:08, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Damour massacre]] 

message: This page contains far too many external links. Wikipedia is not a web directory. I've removed the following. Angela. 21:25, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
Overviews
*US State Department History of Lebanon
**Just a bunch of links to other pages. If there's anything useful, link to it directly.
*CIA World Factbook - Lebanon
**This is public domain information. If it's useful, add it to the article and cite the source as a reference rather than an external link.
History
*More than 6000 years of history
Governmental
*Dar al Fatwa
**Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links. 
*Internal Security Forces
**Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links. 
*Lebanese Armed Forces  
**Broken link.
*Ministry of Post & Telecommunications
**Might be relevant in a telecommunications article. Is not relevant in this one.
*National Archives 
**Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links. 
*The Lebanese Parliament
**Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links. 
*The Supreme Islamic Shi'ite Council 
**Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links. 
Educational
:All of these could be in articles about those universities if they're useful. They are not relevant to a general article on the country. 
*Lebanese University
*American University of Beirut
*Beirut Arab University
*Beirut University Online  
*Lebanese American University
*The Lebanese National Council for Scientific Research
Political
*Hezbollah
**Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links. 
*Lebanese Forces
**Might be relevant in an article about the Lebanese Forces, but not in one about the country.
*The Lebanese Kataeb
**Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links. 
*Free Patriotic Movement
**Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links. 
News
:Wikipedia is not a news site and not a web directory, so all these links shouldn't be here. This isn't a place to find news.
*Lebanese National News Agency 
*Al Mustaqbal national newspaper
*Assafir national newspaper
*Al Liwaa national newspaper
*The Daily Star national newspaper
*Ya Libnan national newspaper
*Yahoo! News Full Coverage - Lebanon news headline links
*BBC News - Country profile: Lebanon includes ongoing coverage
*Guardian Unlimited - Special Report: Syria and Lebanon includes ongoing coverage
Communities
*Lebanese technology community
**Just some sort of forum. Not relevant to an article about the country.
Blogs
*Blogging Beirut Photography, the Environment, Human Rights, the Culture, the People of Beirut.
*The Beirut Spring Commentary on local politics with a touch of humour.
*Accross The Bay Sharp clearinghouse of information on Syria and Lebanon
: I disagree with some of your choices, Angela. Wikipedia is not a web directory, but external references which can provide additional valuable information can be important to the reader. I 'strongly' disagree with the deletion of links to sites in languages other than English. The fact that *you* do not read Arabic doesn't mean that other English-speaking Wiki users are unable to read material in Arabic. Please use 'relevance' to the article as the criterion of selection. FrancescoMazzucotelli 16:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: I know it is English Wiki but (for me) it seems that UK/US/CommonWealth people simply cannot overcome their prejudice. Yes, in vast numbers of English-speaking media the attacks are called terrorist ones. However some editions of the article were quoting them without the proper tag and got reverted. The fact that the majority of editors here do not understand Arabic does not automagically mean the other's point is wrong. Remember - for Arabs the English is not an easy language and not too many are able to contribute at the level one would expect. Please do not alienate them.
Meanwhile the section for the climate went deleted just as collateral damage. Maybe other editors do not agree with political position of 130.54.130.228 but the Weather/Climate section of his last two edits was just fine.
I was looking to find information about the country and got a lot of politics. There are links above each section. Why cant the whole history (Phoenicians, Alexander the Great, Romans, Arab Halifate, Otoman Empire, and 20th century Arabs) be summarized within one screen and the rest to be moved in linked articles? If there is too much information one can even spun off from "History ..." another articles for "Civil War" and/or "Cedar Revolution". 
Is it so hard to quote both positions in a tone as neutral as possible. The article is getting more reverts than edits, while readers like me are trying to filter out the POVs and find the truth. I am not going to touch anything in order to avoid reignited edit wars, and am appealing to your dignity and neutrality. 
Regards, Goldie (tell me) 18:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Anglo-American focus|Anglo-American focus]] 

message: I've heard the Bekaa's #1 crop 1975 on was hashish. Mention it?  Trekphiler 06:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bekaa

message: Shouldn't the little curled up bit on the right side of the coat of arms be white, the same colour as the piece of the shield that's curling over? Osgoodelawyer 14:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it could be marked as fair use. CG 15:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I understand fair use, we would need to know the purpose of the piece's existence first. But can you even claim copyright on something like a flag, even if you drew it? --Tom Edwards 16:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coat of Arms 

message: I haven't been able to find a definite, uncopyrighted source for :Image:Lebanese_COA.png. Could someone look into the problem? --Tom Edwards 14:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it could be marked as fair use. CG 15:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I understand fair use, we would need to know the purpose of the piece's existence first. But can you even claim copyright on something like a flag, even if you drew it? --Tom Edwards 16:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Licensing

message: Sorry I removed the previous section added by me, I will update the Tourism section that I created in the main article with objective data from the old section removed here. LebanonChild 22:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sights and Sounds: Updating the Main Page 

message: This part of the article is massively long considering there is a subarticle devoted to it, I didn't check too deeply but there seems to be much replication in parts between these two articles. -- Sfnhltb 22:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I proposed the complete rewriting for everyone interested, so you are invited to contribute. About your addition to the History section, do wherever you like, but don't overwrite. Actually, the history section is very unbalanced: The Cedar revolution is hardly 6 months and it takes the biggest part of the section, while the 4000 years history are hardly one paragraph. CG 17:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History section

message: Can anyone verify anything this user puts in? This is the onylarticle he seems interested in, and he makes the same edits each day, most of which are PoV. I know next to nothing about Lebanon, but even I can recognise that most of his stuff is rather biased.HawkerTyphoon 22:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct. Almost everything the user has added is extremely biased, and very little of it has any factual backing at all. George Saliba 21:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

text: In addition the user repeatedly changes the name of the President to "puppet President Debile Lahouss" (a politically-biased insult I believe), and incorrectly swaps the population balance (minority Christian to majority Christian). I've reverted back his changes, again. George Saliba 10:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  User 194.126.24.2 

message: From "Politics" section:
"This arrangement is part of the "National Pact" (al Mithaq al Watani)"
Can someone who knows Arabic add the Arabic for al "ithaq al Watani"?  thanks.--Fox Mccloud 21:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanization 

message: "Lebanon also hosts several prestigious universities, including the Lebanese University , The American University of Beirut, The Université Saint-Joseph, The Lebanese American University, and The Notre-Dame University".
The Notre-Dame university?
I have lived in Lebanon my whole life and I don't think I have ever heard of it. Furthermore I don't know anyone who has enrolled in it.
I think that if that's considered prestigious, another 30 universities can be added to the list.
Yes actually there is a notre-Dame unversity and it's better known as the NDU. As for the 30 other universities, I dont think they would be as prestigious as the ones mentioned (although I would add the Balamand university). --Edz 18 17:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notre-Dame university? 

message: I consider myself a fairly clever guy who is generally familiar with sayings, but what does this mean?  If I knew what relationship this saying was meant to illustrate, I'd change it to something more appropriate; however, I do not know how hizbollah relates to Lebanese policy, so I cannot even caution a guess as to what "tail wagging" could possibly mean.  In fact, this is the only mention of Hizballah in this article, and there is only brief, incidental coverage of Hizballah in the politics of Lebanon article.  
For the sake of clarity, formality, and NPOV--since this term almost certainly carries some sort of connotation--can someone fix this?  Either Hizballah's role as a "tail wagger," whatever that is, needs to be explained using more conventional language or this passing mention of Hizballah needs to be removed.  I suspect that the former would be more appropriate, but I lack the subject knowledge to fix this particular case of poor, informal wording. If this has not been addressed in a few days, I'll take a whack at it, but it's best that someone else do it.--Smallwhitelight 12:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Tail wags"? 

message: This is the article about Lebanon. Everything to do with Lebanon, not just politics and history. The current Israeli attack doesn't really belong in this article. Of coures, if in a year's time or even six months' time it looks like it was an important turning point in Lebanese history, then it can go in; but at the moment it doesn't look like that. There are all sorts of more important things that aren't covered or are skimmed over. Let's keep a sense of proportion here, and avoid the idea that "it just happened, so it must go in the article". Take a look at the United Kingdom article for a far more professional and balanced approach to dealing with historic events, recent and otherwise. Palmiro | Talk 13:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lebanon 

message: I think I'm dangerously close to the three revision rule here, if not in technical violation of it.  If I have violated it, I apologize.  I'm removing myself from editing this article for 24 hours so that I don't run afoul of this rule. -- SwissCelt 02:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oops! 

message: why is lebanon's recent military history listed before its statistics and cultural information? I realize they had a major impact on shaping the nation but it is somewhat insulting.  -- (Zerton 17:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: Since this is a talk page, and not an article that I'm contributing to, I'd like to hereby express a POV biased towards the innocent people of Lebanon, including a friend who might not talk to me one day when I log into my Messenger account.  Dessydes 18:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: While not going into the rights or wrongs, of why the Arabs of Isarel fled to the Lebanon. The fact remains that all Northern Irael cities are now a Jewish city. We will not try and pretend the Arabs did not exist and deny their existence. We have our own Holocaust deniers so what happened did happen and nothing can reverse it and we do not deny we forced them out. Haifa is now a beautiful city of Jews from Germany and America. Israel is an immigrant country and nearly all the population are first generation or second generation immigrants. We know we did not move into an empty land, nobody can deny this, the refugee camps of the Palestinians with 2.5 million refugees bear testimony to the fact that the land was not empty when we moved in. But all this is in the past. Three are many wrongs in History look at the plight of the Red Indians, Black slaves transported from Africa, AND of course our own Holocaust. Fifty years ago IS in the past, its history, FULL STOP. 
Ben Cohen
[edit]
:True enough Ben, The past IS over, but hopefully we can all grow by heeding its warnings. The chain of associated events (and some unassociated) that you cite all have one thing in common - the slaughter of innocent people. Lebanon as an independant state is suffering such a slaughter RIGHT NOW, as i type. That the state of Lebanon is used as a pawn by groups who's main interest is to continue the conflict, does not really justify the slaughter of innocents, no matter how much political spin is used. At the moment both your country and mine (the U.K.) are behaving shamefully and as citizens our aquiescence simply adds to the injustice. To use an historical simile, we are guilty of averting our eyes as the state machinery is used against civilians, were this the weimar republic, we all know where that can lead and that the only solution is to act with a conscience in favour of humanity. DavidP 14:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: We Jews unlike the Nazis do not distort or rewrite history, we also must not get emotional about the facts

message: This weaponry for the above destruction was supplied to the terrorists by company called Raytheon, which is based in Massachusetts. They manufacture the Tomahawk missile, the Sidewinder, a number of other high-tech missiles. These missiles have very sophisticated targeting components -- heat-seeking, they're interfaced with GPS for much targeted attacks.
Lockheed Martin is another company it supplies the F16 Aircraft to the terrorist and other systems to deliver these weapons.
Boeing is another major corporation. They manufacture all sorts of planes: the F-18 fighter plane, the F-14.
Last week the United States decided to sell $120 million worth of jet fuel to the terrorist Washington has been asked to speed up a shipment of precision bombs sold as part of a deal with the terrorists last year. They are rushing to send these
The funding for the terrorists is more then three billion dollars a year, It comes directly from U.S. taxpayers in the form of foreign military financing, which is transferred to the terrorists, and then turns right back around and goes to Lockheed Martin, Boeing or Raytheon.
* Maybe Walmart, Exxon and other "evil" companies are involved too, but that isn't really very useful to an encyclopedia article about Lebanon, is it? galar71 22:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Weapons Used In Lebanons Destruction

message: I have semi-protected this article. This means that it cannot be edited by anonymous users or by newly-created accounts. This has been necessary because of anonymous users (or perhaps just one) consistently ignoring our NPOV policy. - Mark 01:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protection 

message: I note that you are a law student. Well I think that your protection of the Lebanon page is not only restrictive of the ethos freedom of expression of wikipedia but ultra varies to your role as administrator of the wiki project.
Naturally the evens in Lebanon are causing considerable world wide interest as well as an humanitarian crises this also is the cause of interest in the wikipedia page on Lebanon, two countries seem to be in midst of a war.
Wikipedia editors from divergent points of view edit this page with an incresed frequency as it is topical news. By frequent edits from both sides a common consensus is arrived at which becomes the prevailing concensus.
You have now imposed an almost draconian censorship of this wiki page doing it at this time I feel makes you unfit to be an administrator of wikipedia because its an abuse of power, I have recorded this event against your record for the community to judge I have had e mail from Lebanese citizens who now cannot contribute to this page. The only mitigating circumstance is your inexperience and immaturity.
You may be aware that there was a campaign by supporters of Israel mostly Jewish e mail lobby associations to distort the content of wikipedia to a Jewish point of view. 
This campaign usually follows Israel and USA foreign policy. The Jewish Wikipedia lobby demonize Iran Syria and Hezbollah while justifying the actions of Israel foreign policy. Removal of any adverse editorial on the founders of Israel demonizing the leadership of Arab countries etc. 
There is also subtle distortion of history particularity in regards to the Palestinian conflict. In order to counter this organized and as such formidable onslaught on the neutrality of wikipedia Volunteers are keeping a record of hundreds of such pages and a report will be published later.  
It is essential that wikipedia reflects a true world view
Even though you seem to have a Jewish name I trust you are not part of this campaign.
: I couldn't disagree more. Your comments are anti-semitic and the edits are for the most part horrifically PoV. You can't demoise anything on Wikipedia without sources - and I'm afraid to say that two entire continents view Hezbollah as a terorist group. Israel's actions are not justified, but neither is calling the Israelis what several ip addresses have called them. If eople feel strongly enough that Israel needs badmouthing, this is not the place to do it. HawkerTyphoon 12:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: User Mark Above posting "semi - protection" : Stop acting like an officious Policeman of Wikipedia

message: Some editors here might care that the (terrible) page on Nourhanne has been flagged for deletion; improving it (a lot) would save it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  == Impending deletion of Lebanese musician page == 

message: Held withouttrial and often kidnapped by force
lthough Israel's army is gradually transferring authority for jails over to civil authority, it still holds 1,078 prisoners, including 105 in administrative detention and 28 youths aged under 18, B'Tselem says.
Figures collated by Palestinians vary slightly from the Israeli tallies, but only slightly: the PLO's negotiations department says 9,400 Palestinians are currently in all Israeli jails, 800 of those in administrative detention.
Those small differences are as close as the two sides come to agreement on the issue of prisoners. While Palestinian officials call their detainees "political prisoners", Israel says that some 70% of those behind bars have "blood on their hands".
Palestinian officials also criticise the conditions inside Israeli prisons, describing them as "far below minimum standards"; Israel's prison authority says its security prisoners receive the "highest level" of treatment. 
What is a
< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon/Temp >??
Hopiakuta 02:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More On Israel prisoners

message: 1.5.1 Precursor to the violence.
I question the inclusion of this section which consists of 7 paragraphs, not one of which has anything to do with Lebanon!
--DAG 00:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2006 Events 

message: I have removed the semi-protection from this article. I trust that contibutors to this article - anonymous and registered alike - will work together to present a neutral point of view in this article. - Mark 08:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotection 

message: Please look up where the ISraeli soilders were captured...it was in South Lebanon. 	 
Check 	 
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24913&hd=0&size=1&l=e 	 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=COO20060720&articleId=2767 	 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=FRA20060725&articleId=2813 	 
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers.html 	 
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html 	 
http://uruknet.info/?p=m25034&hd=0&size=1&l=e 	 
http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html 	 
These links themselves have links to even more significant sources...
Also two of those sites are world famous for their work, by leading experts and adacemics. Two of those links also had other links on them, plus one of the verifications is The Agence France-Presse (AFP), one of the three largest news agencies in the world...not to mention the Associated Press and the Hindustan Times.
I also want you to note that the Israeli media has proven to be censored and used for propaganda purposes...all their reports of advancement into Lebanon have turned out to be bogus, plus their claims of a Saudi fatwa against Hezbollah. 
Or even reading this says it all;
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291980307&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
I noticed that there is a lot of pro-Israeli rhetoric on the site that is trying to give the world a false image of the attacks on Lebanon and Lebanese civilians.
God Bless
69.196.164.190
:A reading of this Associated Press article would support the proposition that the Israeli soldiers were in fact captured in Southern Lebanon. Can the editors claiming that they were in fact captured in Israel (perhaps Rich Farmbrough, who placed that assertion into the article with a  tag, and subsequently repeatedly removed this anonymous user's statements above from this talk page) provide sources for the proposition that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Israel? - Mark 04:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Excuse me but Israel was the one that crossed the border

message: It is very clear that regarding a variety of issues, many of us are very opinionated, including myself.  We, frequently, find ourselves posting our political perspectives on the articles.
I, hereby, request & propose that there would be one, or several, wikiprojects designed to be where we would debate.  Each such debate page should be tied to similar debate pages, on similar issues.  Each such page, should, as well, be tied to the corresponding article pages, in appropriate clusters.
In this format, pages describing Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, North Africa, Southwest Asia, as far as Bangladesh, Islam, energy-policy, et al, might all be connected to politic pages in various corresponding clusters.
How would you modify, evolve, this proposal??
Thank You.
Hopiakuta 06:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't there be considerable overlap with Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias? Although I think it's a nice idea myself. There isn't enough debates in WikiProjects. MichaelBillington 07:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: request

message: Why would you want to add more duties for that page & section when they are not even doing what they claim to be doing??
What I have proposed is quite different from the failed "mission" thereof anyhow.  Although, when I had written, I had hoped that that fact would, in fact, be one of the many debates.
Overall, the purpose of what I'd written, & has been misinterpreted, was designed specifically to deal with the oft perceived problem on this
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Lebanon
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discussionpage.  On this page, as well as many other pages tied to caustic-issue-articles, people frequently complain that the debate is off-topic, as attempting to settle the larger issue of the subject[s] of the articles, rather than correcting the articles directly.
Well, in that sense, your comment is not relevant to my proposal, nor is it, at all, relevant to
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Lebanon.
----
Furthermore, regarding the failed page that you recommend, & all other related failed policy pages:
They have not diminished bias, discriminination, oppression, racism, classism, handicappism, sufficiemtly to make them worthy to me.
There is so much bias, such a deletion-inclination, that I discourage anyone from creating articles.  Supposedly there is all of this about attempting editing first; however, that's rarely practiced.  Only "good" people get to create.
Anyhow, that has little to do with my herein proposal, to which you do misleadingly respond.
----
My proposal had been that wherever difficult articles lead to spirrited political discussionpages, that those articles would lead to wikiprojects designed to accomodate that political-overload.
Now, if you would respond on-topic to that, & how it would affect the Lebanon-article, the Lebanon-discussion, & similarly political-articles, I would appreciate that.  I am attempting to improve these by suggesting an outlet-project for some of this overflow.
Thank You.
Hopiakuta 14:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: further: proposal

message: There should be a netural point of view in this wiki article as the real kidnappers are from Israel as the foolowing will show Israel Kidnapping activities BEFORE the conflict.
ON JULY 28, 1989, a detachment of heavily armed Israeli commandos descended upon the southern Lebanese village of Jibchit. The time was 2 a.m. They burst into the home of Sheikh Abdul Karim Obeid, leader of the Hizbollah militia, beat up his wife, and shot dead a neighbour before bundling the Sheikh and two other men into a helicopter. One of those seized was a young man named Hashem Fahaf who had no connection to Hizbollah, the other was the Sheikh's bodyguard.
According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which carries a helpful if damning account of the kidnapping on its website, "Israel had hoped to use the sheikh as a card to affect an exchange of prisoners and hostages [held by Hizbollah] in return for all Shiites held by it."
So brazen was Israel's action that the United Nations Security Council unanimously passed a resolution (No. 638) calling for the "immediate safe release of all hostages and abducted persons, wherever and by whomever they are being held." Needless to say, Tel Aviv ignored the resolution. After all, kidnapping non-combatants, including minors, and holding them hostage, was an integral part of Israel's military strategy. In May 1994, Israeli soldiers abducted a prominent Lebanese businessman and former commander of the Shia Amal militia, Mustafa al-Dirani, and brought him into Israel. The aim of that kidnapping was to try and get information about the location of Ron Arad, an air force navigator who had been shot down over Sidon in 1986 during Israel's ongoing aggression against Lebanon.
Mr. Fahaf, whose presence Israel refused to recognise for years, spent 11 years in jail before the Supreme Court finally ordered his release. He was allowed to return home along with 18 other Lebanese nationals who — the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported in August 2003 — had been held "according to the official version ... as `bargaining chips' for Ron Arad". Two of those released had been kidnapped as boys and had grown into adulthood in captivity
____
__
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Hopiakuta 15:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: I think the page is biased when it refers to Hezbullah Kidnapping

message: Israel continues to receive billions of dollars as direct aid. Our country has donated more money to Israel than to any other country in the history of the world -- over $3.5 billion per year, everything included. If not for our extravagantly generous gifts to Israel, every family in America could afford a brand new Mercedes Benz. Surely the American people would be outraged if they realized their hard-earned money is being squandered and used to buy deadly armsin these difficult times.
In whatever way you can, please help shatter the myth that suuprt of Israel is in our interest. It is time we stop sacrificing America's welfare for the sake of Israel and spend our hard-earned dollars on Americans.
:You might want to show some sources for your number—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.161.96.85 (talk • contribs) .
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Does anyone sign this page??
More of the "off-topic":
Yes, that's true.
&, the money is not protecting Israel, nor Jews in [Alta] California.
It merely goes to military-corporations.
War brings terrorism, genocide,
& prison.
They are all the same.
Hopiakuta 15:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The USA has been duped of billions of dollars

message: < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/jibchit >.
So many words, so many interpretations.
But, then there's the prospect of being marooned {maroon} in Maroun al-Ras.
Hopiakuta 15:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this correct??