Talk:Black people/Archive 2

message: This is false, Ethiopians are more Caucasion than negroid, but mentioning the fact that there are more negroids in Ethiopia is false, I am removing this statement made in the article, if anyone is against this, please read the section in the Caucasion article.. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cluckbang (talk • contribs) . 13:23, July 10, 2006
:Using "Negroid" is probably not the best way to go about it, I agree, but Ethiopians are not Caucasian or Arab. It should be noted that they are black in the article. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 05:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here we go with this again. Ethiopians are negroid. To say that Ethiopians are not negroid and are more Caucasian is based on a foolish 21st century revised notion of Caucasoid. Caucasoid, as merely referring to skull shapes, is not relevant in this article. 1. Caucasoid skull shapes NOW are defined in such a way as to INSURE that practically ALL White Europeans fit within this category, thus, the category must be expanded greatly and will thus include many non-white people. Imagine if the Caucasoid definition was more neutral, it would then exclude some middle easterners and Europeans. Since the anthropological community over the past 50 years or so could not accept that, they decided (probably with Coon's own initiative) to simply expand it. What would it take to make ALL Europeans considered to be "Caucasoid"? Well, it would take the inclusion of so many non-White people, to the point that the people of Ethiopia and RWANDA are included. Trust me, if Italian skulls were more shaped like Black South Africans, the Zulu would be called Caucasoids to this very day. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: What are you talking about Zaph? As I said, we shouldn't use terms like "Negroid" and "Caucasoid." Note that Caucasoid is only apt in describing Ethiopian skull shapes. When it comes to limb ratios, Horn Africans are characterised as "Super-Negroid." Genetics, however, does not bear out the idea that Ethiopians are not black. Maternally, lineages all developed in situ. Paternally, the only non-Horn African lineage present in the region is Haplogroup J, which is present only in semitic speakers. However, the majority is of the type J-M267, which entered the region during the Neolithic and is connected to the sub-Saharan tied Natufian culture of the Levant. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 05:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you not see how nonsensical yours are? Pot and kettle. Who's calling who blacker?= Paul B 03:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What's nonsensical about wanting to limit an article about the Black race, to the people who actually form a race?  Your argument about including anyone dark skinned means the White people article should include anyone light skinned, including North East Asians.  But I don't see you advocating that.  So if my views are nonsensical, your views are hypocritical. And for the record, I do agree that Ethiopians are Black, but extenting Blackness all the way to South Asians and Australoids robs the concept of Blackness of any genetic, cultural, or historical continuity.--Editingoprah 04:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no question that Ethiopians are black. The only ones who deny that are racists who want to separate African civilizations from Africa, by claiming that they aren't "really" black because our appearance isn't of the "forest negro." — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 05:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethiopians are not Predominantly Negroids 

message: This article is not only entirely unreferenced, but it full of blatant errors and contradictions. Most of it is an essay of original thought, using terms such as "West African oriented person", "Equatorial lineage" and "Africanologist". --Ezeu 00:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced and POV 

message: This is a dispute about whether only people of African origin can be called black, or if other "black" people, eg. Melanesians, Negritos, Australoid and other non-African peoples can be included. The conflict can be summarized with these two points:
#There is a scientific definition of "black". Only people of Sub-saharan origin are black.
#There is no formal scientific definition of "black". "Black" can either be an ascription based on subjective criteria, or it can be adopted as an identity by certain groups. Not only African people are black. Other peoples self-identify as black as well.
;Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
*User:Editingoprah and User:Whatdoyou have made the point that "black" is scientifically defined, yet they have failed to provide such a definition. They have referenced a website they claim defines "black", however the linked website deals with the out of Africa theory, which has nothing to do with this topic. As has been pointed out by several editors, there is no "formal scientific" meaning of "black". Papua New Guineans, Indigenous Australians, Torres Strait Islanders, Andamese Islanders and other are not only black, but self-identify as such. It is extreme POV to impose a point of view that there is only one meaning for "black". The two editors and a couple of IPs who are pushing the specific POV (I suspect sock puppetry) are determined to edit war instead of reason. This article cannot be developed further before this core issue is resolved.Wikipedia is lacking an article specifically about black Africans. Perhaps that is the reason why some editors are trying to hijack this article for that purpose. --Ezeu 23:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is absolutely no rule that we should follow simplistic dictionary definitions. Are you really serious that we should base an encyclopedic article on a line from TheFreeDictionary?--Ezeu 00:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes actually there is such a rule.  You're not interested in the complex genetic studies that divide people into races, so I'm simply pointing to established dictionary definitions.  Either way, your view of defining Oceanic and South Asian people as black is a fringe view shared primary by archaic white explorers, extremist Afrocentric scholars, and South Asian hip-hop fans who want to be black. Editingoprah 00:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: See above, where, for point of reference, I have added excerpts from several dictionaries.--Jcvamp 00:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ([[WP:RFC]]) Request for Comment: Black people

message: Here is what the dogmatic, self appointed, paranoid Zaphnathpaaneah said in the talk page cited by Paul. And ironically his referrence goes to the Dalit section which I coiencidentally have recently spoke of in this current article only moments ago. 
*I Think what really catches my attention is that people want to steer away from "race" in general, and specifically rather not identify asians in a racial context. However, often the same people will look at blackness from a racial context and then 'rightfully' explain that asians should not be included no matter what their experiences or phenotype. That's not a good way to handle this article. Black is an identity that varies in different parts of the world. The two main components of this identity seem to be "dark skin" and "Equatorial origins". One reason why I want black contributors to hold off on contributing is because I want to see ALL of the best objections and for us to collaborate on discussing them en masse instead of dealing with one at a time for the next 2 years. --Zaphnathpaaneah 07:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Zaphnathpaaneah self-apointed whatchamacallit

message: I can't believe it's come to this. First it was one person in response to me saying that America, as the more influential country, should be the origin of any definition. Now we've got people giving reasons why Australians and others don't qualify to be recognised because the US is a 'superpower'.
The articles I've seen, though mentioning the American definitions first, still at least note the others. Why should this article be any different? Also, there is still a fundamental flaw in the arguments against the broader dictionary definitions. Some of the definitions make allowances for the wider definition whilst emphasising the most common usage (others refer soley to the wider definition), the people arguing against the wider definition are totally disregarding it.
If we were to really emulate the dictionary, we'd be theming the article around black people as dark skinned people with an emphasis on the African origins. We'd also add a section to describe the term as it is in other parts of the English speaking world. The article as it was totally discounted the wider definition and called it incorrect, rather than less common in America. This doesn't reflect the dictionaries, it doesn't seem to have any sources, and represents only a small viewpoint.
If we strive to make this article a good representation of how the term is used and applied, we can do it, and still manage to represent both view points.--Jcvamp 00:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no "people". It's one person using many accounts. The very fact that one of them told me that they aren't one person demonstrates that they are;. How else could he speak for all of them? In any case the style of writing and the bizarre arguments are identical. It is clearly impossible to have a meaningful discussion in such circumstances. Paul B 09:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That they are the same person is evident and well documented. They use the same prose, they make exactly the same fallacious deductions, all of them edit exclusively the same two or three articles, all their user accounts were created recently (User:Aquadaqua being the most recent one), as an attempt to connote consensus. Furthermore, all of them are vividly contentious, yet they uncharacteristically avoid adressing the issue of alleged sockpuppetry. To me it is so obvious that I have not even bothered with a checkuser. --Ezeu 10:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Continuing

message: It could be helpful since the article is much much longer than recomended, to break this up into four or more smaller articles. A main article listing the various ways black people are defined and some sub articles discussing the various main points listed in the current article. this mightalso lend itself to avoiding edit conflicts. We've dine a lot of this with Wikipedia:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses. George 02:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article size, defintion recomendation

message: I'm pretty comfortable in saying that there is no scientific definition of "Black people". The vague talk above about DNA is really beside the point. Yes, some scientists are now coming to think that there may be something to the notion of race after all, but there is no race called "Black". And, as I understand it, there is more genetic variation among the peoples of sub-Saharan Africa than in the whole rest of the world.
In any event, "Black" is a social category, not a scientific one. In the U.S., the term refers to African Americans and other sub-Saharan Africans; in the UK, it refers mainly to South Asians, but also can include sub-Saharan Africans and people from the West Indies of African ancestry; in Australia, I believe it generally includes Australian aborigines. The equivalent term in Russian (чёрный, chyornyi) refers mainly to the people of the Caucasus. - Jmabel | Talk 05:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside comment 

message: We have to keep in mind, this and many social articles on Wikipedia are not required to have a universally agreed scientific definition in mind. The word “black” exists for whatever it’s worth from person to person and is characteristically defined to describe people in a customary way. Genetic variation does not limit itself to skin color and that’s the whole point. Black skin is not a defining litmus of determining how strongly variation occurs. Not only is Black a social category, but so is White, and so forth. The best scientific term I can think of is one I invented (the word existed beforehand, but the definition used I created) and coined in the Ta-Seti Yahoo newsgroup about two years ago. I have yet to find anyone else who has used “Equatorial” to describe people of “black/negroid/directly African” origin. I use that word when the confusion arises from clearly knowing “what do you mean by black, or what do you mean by African…”. Equatorial uniformly describes people who are not considered to be Caucasoid, White, Mongoloid, Aryan (Aryan in the real definition, not the White Supremacist definition), Sinoid, etc.. It means people of direct link to African and higher temperate Equator origins. Medical science does not yield characteristic results for blacks limited to African heritage. Medical treatments for black East Indians are just as workable for Black Africans. That genetic profile that distinguishes Black people from non-Africans also is present among many East Indians and the distinguishing factors between the various groups of East Indians require the same amount of concern. Black has cultural significance despite the pleas to the contrary. The issue is that we associate “black” with “bad” and thus find a way to diminish the cultural positive reinforcement. Apply the same principal with White and see how strange it sounds to many white people. I propose to use the word “Equatorial” rather than “Sub-Saharan” because the word “sub” reinforces sub-consciously the notion of inferiority. In addition, Sub-Saharan harkens to the Sahara desert which is not a defining factor in Black people. It is merely a geographic area that contributed greatly to the cultural distinctions between people north and south of it.  --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Response 

message: How do you inherit characteristics like "dark skin" except from other people who have "dark skin"?
Thus, having dark-skin would indicate your connection to people who carry this trait, making you a part of their family (as well as a carrier of this trait)."
I don't understand why this is confusing.
Actually that's not true at at all. Australian aboriginals and South Indians are actually less related to sub-Saharan Africans than Europeans are. It's just that people in Europe needed light skin to absorb vitamin D.  Skin colour tells you what type of climate your ancestors lived in, not who they're related to.  --Editingoprah 23:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about black people (ie. people who are considered or who self-identify as black), not about the genetic relationship between Africans and indigenous Australians. As has been pointed out several times already, black Africans themselves are generically diverse.--Ezeu 00:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes.--Ezeu 13:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: My goal is not to stop people from Indians or Australian aboriginals from feeling comfort by associating themselves with Africans,  in fact if you see below, I've suggested we can define blacks in 4 different categories.  2 of those groups, the one based on physical appearance and the one based on political metaphors unites peoples of African ancestry and Indians.  It's only in the racial and perhaps cultural categories that they should be divided.--Editingoprah 05:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Question 

message: Is the topic of this article supposed to be African black people? IF so the distinction should be made clear. There are already articles on other types of brown or black skinned peoples and they are linked to in one of the intro paragraphs. I think you guys really should have a main article and then list the various articles which fall under the unbrella of this topic. I wonder if tring to claim the title 'black people' for those of African descent only might be wrong. The U.S. census and U.S. scientists are only giving defintions the U.S. culture is comfortable with. This should be considered when writing the article. I don't want to come in and do a major chop job on this aritlce because it is the product of much hard work, (not to mention how busy I already am) but in order to improve it it may need a complete overhaul so that a fresh start may be made. George 13:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No that is not supposed to be the topic of the article. It is the opinion of one editor masquerading under several identities. See the discussion above. Paul B 14:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The topic is "Black People", full stop. Not black Africans or black Americans. --Ezeu 15:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No the article says at the outset that Black is a racial ethnic classification in which case it ONLY refers to peoples of African ancestry.  Census records in both the U.S. and Britain as well as medical science text books all agree that when black is used as a racial term it only describes people related to African ancestry. All the other dark-skinned peoples of the world have no racial relation to sub-Saharan Africans. Further, common cultural terms like Black music, and Black English all relate to peoples of African ancestry. Now if we include every ethnic group that ever loosely has been described as black we have to include the Black Irish and it would be an incredibley stupid article not worth creating. If we want an article about people who are literally black, we should call it black-skinned people and we would have to limit ourselves to an extremely small group of subraces. But lumping in obscure Australian folk songs that refer to Australian aboriginals and giving them equal weight as official census definition and medical science text books that limit the term black to the sub-Saharan African race is ruining this article. --Editingoprah 22:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would seem to me that if you want an article devoted to the definition you feel this one should be devoted to then you should create it, because Black people as an international concept covers all people of black skin as your colleagues have shown. WP is quite obviously an international phenomenon. 23:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My collegues haven't shown a damn thing. Their ignorance is alarming.  Their knowledge of modern genetic research is non-existent, they confuse entire classifications in anthropology, they think that "South Asians" are called "blacks" in Britain when both the British census and the BBC says the opposite, they classify entire populations as black based on obscure Australian folk-songs, and they have no coherent vision for this article, and have actually desrtoyed an article that used to be half-decent.  They're quite simply the most incompetent people I have ever seen.--Editingoprah 23:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You, in contrast are simply dishonest, as we know from your sockpuppeting. The Australian song (which is not a "folk song") is simply evidence of established usage. South Asians (ie Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis) are not consistently considered to be "black" in Britain, but they often have been. The Dravidianist and Dalit movements in India sometinmes adopt the notion of "black" identity on the grounds that their victimisation is analagous to racial oppression experienced elsewhere. Other Indians reject it on the grounds that it subsumes their distinctive cultural and racial identity in a rather meaningless general concept. That's why I reject the dogmatism of both your position and Zaph's. It's really quite simple. We desrcibe how the term has been used over history, how this connected with scientific models of race at the time and how it fits with, or doesn't, with modern theories. The ignorance is all yours. You are thoroughly US-centric. You seem to know nothing of cultures outside of the US or of history prior to c1990. Paul B 23:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In addition to that, both of you find yourselves in a contradiction. How is it that a people outside of Africa cannot even view themselves as Black? How is it that they (not the African) has to fufill all of these criteria (which actually only point trying to prove or disprove that they are literally African). Neither one of you can let that go. "Black" does not mean "African only". It never has. Black Africans encapsulated the term, because generally speaking they are most different from the conquering Europeans. The variations, which the Europeans noticed, they related to themselves. "Black person with kinky hair is not as black as the same skinned colored person with straight hair... because we British have straight hair too!" And over in over we play this game. It's just like back home with the black american family. Some kids are lighter skinned than the others, so those kids get called "high yellow" and "not really black". You guys need to get over yourselves. Millions of Indians view themselves as Black (more than in America) and just because YOU don't like it, YOU don't think it's accurate (for the simple fact that they are not Africans), that does not make YOU right. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm thoroughly US-centric. BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't even live in the U.S. and have hardly ever been there.  I'm not even goint to dignify your other accustaions with a response, because its clear that you draw bad conclusions.  Ooooh wow! A few ignorant Brits call South Asians black so now South Asians must be in the article.  A few uneducated Australians call the aboriginals black for rough and ready descriptive convenience, and suddenly that carries equal weight as census definitions, medical text books, and complex cultural identities that go back for centuries. Do you have any sense of perspective at all? The Irish call themselves blacks too but should that be in the article? If not, why not? It's on the same level of significance, actually more so since its widespread enough to enter dictionaries. About the only intelligent point you've made is about the Dalits using black as a metaphor for descrimination elsewhere, but I notice you didn't say where. Could it be because the analogy they're actually invoking is the discrimination against peoples of African ancestry in America and South Africa? So once again, it all comes down to people of African ancestry and that needs to be the coherent theme of the article. There can be a special section in the article for exclusively cultural conceptions of blackness which serve as metaphors for the global oppression of the sub-Saharan African race and the shared experience of having dark skin, because that's respectful and coherent. But this ridiculous idea of describing South Asian as one of the black phenotypes as if they were part of the same genetic group is really simple minded and robs the sub-Saharan Africans of their independent racial identity.--Editingoprah 00:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your tactics aren't going to help you win anyone to your side. You also appear not to care. BUT compromise is the way to produce a good article. One person's view is rarely the only correct one.George 00:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The Irish do not "consider themselves black". Only a blithering idiot would think that. The term "black Irish" refers to dark-haired/swarthy Irishmen, associated with the West of Ireland. It's associated with connotations of prinitivism, and so certainly is relevant to the use of the concept "black" with a negative meaning. However, many peoples have have had the word "black" attached to them in different contexts. It was also used of people of the Caucasus (yes, "Caucasians" were thought of as "black" in one context). These usages can reasonably be included in the article. But they are certainly marginal. No-one has ever suggested the "ridiculous idea of describing South Asian as one of the black phenotypes as if they were part of the same genetic group is really simple minded and robs the sub-Saharan Africans of their independent racial identity". This is gibberish. There is no such thing as a "black phenotype" except in sikin-colour. And no-one says that South Asians are "part of the same genetic group" as Africans. You are making this up. Your transparent misrepresentation of what other editors have said is edidence of your bad faith. Paul B 00:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How can you say the Irish did not consider themselves black when they said "black Irish" when you have no coherent definition of what a black person is? That makes you the blithering idiot. And if its so marginal how come their blackness is mentioned by dictionaries, but the blackness of Australian aboriginals is not. And I understand that no one claims that South Asians are part of the same genetic group but its implied. Look, we're not getting anywhere. Why not form a compromise? What's wrong with dividing this article up into sections such Blacks as a racial group, Blacks as a cultural group, Blacks as a political metaphor, Blacks as a physical group.--Editingoprah 01:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, nothing is wrong with dividing the article so that not only your point of view is represented. I am happy that you are starting to understand. However, before creating new articles you may want to see the guideline on content forking. --Ezeu 01:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't really think we need to create new articles but this article is currently very disorganized so I think it should be divided into 4 different sections. In BLACKS AS A RACIAL GROUP I propose we just talk about blacks from a biomedical perspective and limit the term to only people with a majority of sub-Saharan African ancestry. In BLACKS AS A CULTURAL GROUP I propose we include people who have only a tiny bit African ancestry but still self-identify as black for cultural reasons. In BLACKS AS A POLITICAL METAPHOR talk about the untouchables of India who compared their oppression to African American oppression and perhaps even how Toni Morrison described Clinton as the first black president. In BLACKS AS A PHYSICAL GROUP we should have a broad discussion of the darkest peoples in the world regardless of whether they're African or not.--Editingoprah 01:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Topic of this article

message: Looks like you guys are moving toward consensus. Remember to avoid personal attacks. As an editor on religious topics I know how hard it can be to remain calm. It is in the best interest of the article to do so. Sometimes it is best wait a while before you reply or edit. Remember to assume good faith. Adding some images would probably help too. George 02:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you Zaphnathpaaneah. Shortly after you started making all your edits, Paul B reverted back to an earlier version so your edits were lost. I kept trying to revert back to versions that included your edits, but he kept reverting back to the version that came before your edits.  Anyway, I always assumed wikipedia articles got better with time but that's not been the case with this article. Look at the much earlier version and see how excellent it was (scroll down)[]. It included all the different conceptions of Black but it emphasized the origin of the term in latin and how it originally came from the River Niger in Nigeria. Really this is a term for Africans.  This article emphasized the African diasporas. It also talked about how the term was used to describe non-African diasporas people, but it kept this discussion in perspective, and din't blow out of proportion like some later editors have. And it talked about the untouchables in India but it explained the history of WHY they self-identified as black, linking it to the African American civil rights movement. This really was an excellent article at one time. Hard to tell by looking at it today.--Editingoprah 04:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted your edits because you were clearly going against consensus. If other legitimate edits were lost in the process that was a mistake. There is no evidence at all that the term "black" originated in Latin from the River Niger. Indeed the orgin of the river name "Niger" is not known for certain. Anyway, languages other than Latin also have terms for black. "Ethiopia" is usually thought to derive from the Greek for "burnt skin" and "Sudan" derives from the Arabic phrase bilad as sudan, meaning land of blacks. The Hebrew "Cush" also has the same meaning. Paul B 15:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually you reverted a version that no one else had reverted in a couple of days, so obviously there was no consensus against that version.  You reverted it because you and Ezeu can't stand the fact that science has elevated my definition of blackness head and shoulders above yours, and so you must rely on vague ancient scriptures, pop music references, while I get to point to standard dictionaries, census classifications, DNA studies, and biomedical articles.  You are in clear violation of wikipedia's undue weight rules by treating your fringe POV as equal to dictionary and census definitions that are validated by mainstream science from the best universities in the world.  You are also againt wikipedia policy by arguing for consensus, when wikipedia clearly states it is not a democracy. Quite simply you are not here to report information in a proportionate way, but rather, like so many people, in so many different wikipedia articles, you use wikipedia as an opportunity to take a fringe point of view and try to make it mainstream.--Editingoprah 15:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You have not produced a single piece of scientific evidence to support your view about the meaning of black. You have produced evidence - which no-one has ever disputed - about Out of Africa theory, and then asserted that this proves something about the word "black". Not a single other editor, apart, of course, from your sockpuppets, has agreed with you. Not one. The RfC contributors also disagreed with you. So you are the one in violation of Wikipedia rules. Paul B 16:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the version you reverted had TWO pieces of scientific evidence. The first was the Yale study which was used to give genetic validity to the census decision to group Africans into a coherent group. The second citation actually explicititly stated that Blacks are a racial group defined by African ancestry. Further the term Black as a racial category has replaced politically incorrect terms like terms Negro and Negroid which are defined by physical anthropology, and under the tradition 3 race model, Negroid refers only to peoples of African ancestry (though Coon created a 5 race model by dividing Negroids into Capoids and Kongoids and then adding Australoids) And I couldn't care less how many editors you think disagree with me. Wikipedia clearly states it is not a democracy and yor constant efforts to form a mob rule consensus are a violation of this policy. You are damaging the integrity of wikipedia by encouraging strange interest groups to trump the basic standards for view points to be represented in a proportional way.--Editingoprah 18:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have repilied to this point several times already. Both you "citations" were from journalistic articles, not scientific texts. The NYT one never even used the word black in the entire article. It claimed that popular models of race had some justification, referring to a study, but giving very few details of it. I you read the Race article you will see how thoroughly this question is debated and disputed. The other reference was a polemical essay in a political journal, again, not science. The term "mob rule consensus" is really disgraceful. You evidently have no respect for the very concept of consensus. Paul B 19:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul B, you keep missing the point. No one claimed that the NY times article defined "Black people". The point of the NY Times article was simply to show that the census decision to lump all African related people together has scientific validity.  It doesn't relate to the word "black" per se, but it does relate to the decision to treat Africans as a racial group which was a very relevant thing to point out if we're going to quote the census denying their groupings have any scientific validity. And it doesn't matter if the NY Times article was not a scientific text because it is a reputable newspaper that is simply summarizing the results of a scientific study.  It's obvious that you're one of these biased people that holds perspectives you disagree with to ridiculously high standards.  A summary from top newspaper about a study from a top university isn't good enough for you, yet Australian rock songs obviously are, since you didn't revert those edits. And the biomedical article was an essay, but no one claimed it was anything more than that. I believe the version of the article simply said that it was an article about race in biomedicine defined "blacks" in a certain way. The article was about the importance of race from a biomedical perspective.  You don't find this an acceptable reference but you have no problem allowing some obscure poorly reviewd book by an Indian untouchable to speak for his entire populations self-identity?  I think you need to step out of your mental box and realized how biased and hypocritical you appear to people advocating a different perspective.--Editingoprah 00:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are the one missing the point. There was nothing wrong with the articles as such what was wrong was the way you were using them to support a claim they either did not make or could not sustain. The book I cited is not only poorly reviewed, it's actually a barely coherent rant by a political extremist, like all his other books. But the point it was being used to make was simply that this usage exists and is a familiar one. That was also the point of using the song, though other citations would also have been desirable. Paul B 07:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The NY Times article was simply used to support the scientific validity of grouping peoples of African ancestry. The article clearly stated that based on DNA, the peoples of the world belong to 5 principles groups, and one of them is Africans. That is scientific support for the way the census grouped peoples of African ancestry under a single umbrella which the census chose to call "Black".  The second source on biomedicine simply demonstated a definition of black for a biomedical purpose. I thought this article was about how black people are defined in different contexts. So why are you censoring that example of how black people are defined? Because its not a god enough source? And yet, an incoherent political rant by an Indian extremist is a good enough source?  I'm trying very hard to have a civil discussion, but you're not demonstrating the neutral POV on which wikipedia depends.--Editingoprah 15:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: What on earth does "infiltrate this article surreptiously" mean? All my edits are openly by me and are signed. Your views about racism in ancient Indian thought are highly disputable. See Aryan Invasion Theory. It all depends on interpretation and translation. But the central point is that the theory that Indo-Aryan culture was racist - with a white/black opposition - is legitimate, so should be included - along with the equally legitimate rebuttals of it. Paul B 15:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Things seemed to be going so well, lets not restart with a complaint about previous behavior right out of the gate. Fresh start man! George 05:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving toward consensus

message: Get ready:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/ - I think this is a credible enough website that has the Rig Veda, a very important scripture of the Hindu religion. 
Book 1 - Chapter 100 - verse 18 He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Simyus, after his wont, and laid them low with arrows. The mighty Thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends won the land, the sunlight, and the waters.
Book 2 Chapter 20 Verse 6 - Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu sprang from a black womb."  
Book 3 - Chapter 34 - Verse 9 - He gained possession of the Sun and Horses, Indra obtained the Cow who feedeth many. Treasure of gold he won; he smote the Dasyus , and gave protection to the Aryan colour.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sv.htm
Hyms of the Samaveda Book 3 Chapter 3 and repeated again in Book 4 Chapter 1
5. Impetuous, bright, have they come forth, unwearied in their speed, like bulls, driving the black skin far away. 
They being the Gods. 
The account further reports how Indra "slew the flat-nosed barbarians, the dark people called Anasahs. Finally, after Indra conquers the land of the Anasahs for his worshippers, he commands that the Anasahs are to be flayed of (their) black skin."
Indria is the supreme God. The Dasyus are a race of black people in this religious text. Now, Wikipedia has an article about the Dasyus. And (once again) the contradiction reveals itself. The text I quote here shows clearly that the god smote the one group "dasyus" and gave protection to the other group's color (Aryans). You cannot doubt with confidence that the Dasyus were not of a different COLOR than the ARYANS, since the scripture verse objectively and unconsciously distinguishes the Aryan FROM the Dasyus BY the skin color! And keep in mind, we to this day currently have a caste system IN india which follows pretty closely skin color. 
--Zaphnathpaaneah 06:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly. I have no problem with mentioning the untouchables of India in relation to their political identification with African Americans, but to have them right in the opening paragraphs of the article, as though this conception of blackness carries the same weight as the African only perspective of official census definitions, many dictionaries, biomedical definitions, anthropological classifications, is the worst violation of wikipedia's undue weight rules I have ever seen.--Editingoprah 18:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Zaph, most of these translations are from the turn of the 19th/20th century, when racialised interpretations of the RV were commonplace. "flat-nosed barbarians" for example is an extremely tendentious translation. The word supposedly for "flat-nosed" is anasna, which may mean "noseless" (a-nasa), but the more established view is that it means mouthless or faceless. Either way it's a derogatory term probably intended to label the Dasyu as "other" - people without identities, a faceless mass ("barbarians" is just a translation of Dasyu). The idea that it means flat-nosed derives from the less likely interpretation "noseless", which is then further glossed as "flat-nosed", purely by guessing that they were called noseless because of flat noses. In other words it's speculation built on a minority interpretation. The Dasa/Dasyu are referred to as black on several occasions, but it is not known whether this was a symbolic use of colour to imply "dark forces" or a literal reference to skin tone. The latter is certainly a legitimate and well-established interpretation, but so are those that reject it. The point is that we can't be dogmatic here. Paul B 22:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Also there are no people called the "Anasahs", contrary to the quotation you have copied from here . The word anasa is used once in the entire RV, as an adjective, not as a proper noun. Paul B 06:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No racialisised interpretations of the RV have not been commonplace for centuries, though it is well established that skin-colour hierarchies in India have existed for long time. That's probably beause most invaders of India entered from the north and established themselves in higher castes. It does not alter the fact that "anasa" almost certainly does not mean "flat-nosed". I poonted out that skin-pigment interpretations of passages in the RV are well established bu also contested, so there is no consensus among scholars on this. Racism in India is not based on these verses, but is a much more complex phenomenon. I've no idea what you mean by "You go and be a hindu priestly scholar, find that earlier translation and compare it to other words used IN THE SAME MANNER and come back." What "other words used in the same manner"? "How does 2000 years of cultural and religious policy and teaching get explained away by Paul's own interpretation." It doesn't. It has nothing to do with my interpretation. It is mostly Hindu scholars such as Sri Aurobindo and Swami Dayananda who have rejected the racial interpretation as "Western" misinterpretation. Paul B 07:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hindu Vedic Religious references to the black people of India 5000 years ago

message: http://edition.cnn.com/US/9707/16/racial.suit/
Let us see in here who can use common sense and who relies on absurd technicalities created by ignorant people in power.
Mostafa Hefny is an Egyptian. When he came to America he was forced to classify himself as white. Now. Like any Asian of the same complexion and of similar experience, he knows that he is NOT white. He is Black. He knows that when he is outside in the American cities, and walks around, people agree that he is black (unless they are told that he is Egyptian). Just like Mr. East INdian. If the East Indian dalit puts on a hat and walks around any American city, he will be viewed as black. Only when he opens his mouth and his east indian accent is heard or if his hair is shown then does the idea change. The idea only changes because the people in America will see that he is not "African" and Americans link "black" with "Africans only". Notwithstanding the STIGMA of Africans and Blackness, East Indians who are Black do not hesitate to admit this. Do I need to get some of you nay-sayers on a plane, send you to India, then to some american cities to meet some East Indians I know in order for you to get this fact? --Zaphnathpaaneah 07:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mostafa Hefny 

message: Look, the fact is that this article is a dreadful mess at the moment, full of unsupported assertions and OR. It was in a far better state some weeks ago and the only people stopping it from returning to a good quality are POV obsessed edit warriors. We need to recover an earlier version of the article and get rid of some of the sections here that are sheer personal opinion or fringe theory. Paul B 06:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's impossible to have a coherent discussion with someone who writes in this stream-of-conscousness way. What is "harkening to an American country down home come on good ole boy approach"? Can you be slightly less gnomic? My comments on anasa are not some sort of personal opinion. I did not "reetranslate" anything. Read the Dasa article. For a very detailed discussion of this issue read Edwin Bryant's The Quest for the Orgins of Vedic Culture. Paul B 07:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Edwin Bryant graduated from Columbia in 1997. He's what, 30 maybe 40 years old tops? Great he went to Harvard. He wrote six books. Im not going to rely again on just the word of a white westerner when the entire hindu population speaks volumes by acts and deeds. They do not practice racism in hinduism simply based on a 5000 year old mistranslation of the rig veda. This is where you are having a disconnection from reality. The RACIALIZED INTERNALIZED PRACTICED interpretation of HINDUISM is based on consistent TRANSLATIONS of these texts. You don't come from America in 2003 and simply erase that factual history with some kind of repackaging of nouns! WIll you please stop trying to attack my credibility by focusing on my frustrated elaborations of your feigned dimwittedness? This is in addition to the fact that the issue here is about black people anyway. I was asked to present SOME evidence that black people were present in the Hindu religious scriptures. You got it. If this is not true, then why are DALIT EAST INDIAN intellectuals speaking up against them? --Zaphnathpaaneah 08:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea how old Bryant is nor do I care. He is a scholarly authority and his book is the latest detailed discussion of this topic. Actually the translation of "anasa" to mean noseless is entirely a phenomenon of western 19th century scholarship. The traditional Indian interpretation is derived from the medieval scholar Sayana (1315-1387), who says it means "faceless". So "RACIALIZED INTERNALIZED PRACTICED interpretation of HINDUISM" is not "based on consistent TRANSLATIONS of these texts". If you stop shouting for a minute you will see that most of what I say does not contradict you. I was merely pointing out that we shouldn't be dogmatic here and we should cite scholarly sources. Paul B 08:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So then Paul, you are trying to say that the Hindu caste system was not color based until the British and Portuguese came into the picture? Paul... come on. They couldn't convert them to Christianity, and you think they were able to tweak hinduism to what it has 'become' today? You're not able to explain where the Negrophobia in hindu India came from! Ralph T.H. Griffith the one whose translations came from Sayana is where we get our 'racialized' interpretation from. Do you HAVE another English source? --Zaphnathpaaneah 09:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary Griffith (whose translation I have read) ignored Sayana on this issue, as you could easily find out if you checked the facts. I have already said "it is well established that skin-colour hierarchies in India have existed for long time. That's probably beause most invaders of India entered from the north and established themselves in higher castes. It does not alter the fact that "anasa" almost certainly does not mean "flat-nosed"." As for Hinduism as a whole the situation is far from simple. There are many dark-skinned Brahmins in the south/ Many gods are portrayed as dark skinned, most notably krishna, whose name actually means "black" in Sanskrit. We have to explore the subtlties of these various issues to make a good article. Paul B 14:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with User:Zaphnathpaaneah that if some black-looking South Asians, Australians, and Southeast Asians choose to identify as black there opinion is relevant to this article.  Blackness does not contradict also being Asian, Southeast Asian or Malaysian, because these are geographic terms which do not imply a physical or genetic similarity.  Even if these were two contradictory physical classifications like a person being both dolio- and brachycephalic, User:Zaphnathpaaneah's argument that self-identity is a deciding factor would still be the case.  As noted by User:Zaphnathpaaneah, the Asian article is not being held up to genetic validity test that User:Editingoprah is trying to force onto this article.--Dark Tichondrias 07:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The British census defines Blacks as peoples of African ancestry, so there's obviously not a critical mass of British people who define non-Sub-Saharan DNA as Black, and I'm not convinced there ever was. You can always find obscure references here and there describing every ethnic group in the world as Black, but that's not an acceptable standard for wikpedia. As for the Asian article-Asian is a much more ambiguous term because some Asians use it to replace anthropological categories like "Mongoloid" while the census defines Asian by all the peoples of Asian ancestry.  The article you should be comparing this one to is the "White people" article, and you'll see that that article is limited to peoples with a genetic relationship (I.e. Caucasoids) and there definition of White people also conforms to the census definition. There's no reason why this article can't do the same, except for the fact that some Black people have a poor opinion of African people, and thus must expand their conception of Blackness to include non-Africans in order to feel good about themselves. That's why there's so much resistance to the idea of sub-Sahran people forming a coherent genetic group. I suspect that a lot of editors here are ashamed of their sub-Saharan DNA and thus prefer to emphasize the differences among sub-Saharans and the similarities with non-African dark skinned people. It's sad that the level of self-hatred has become so extreme among our people that its caused this article to become protected. Though perhaps that could make an interesting section for the article--Editingoprah 16:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The British census uses the term "Black or Black British" which does not restrict their definition to only Africans.  Sure mostly Africans will mark this, but there is no literal restriction implied by the term itself.--Dark Tichondrias 17:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not in the term itself but in the way term is defined by the British census.  Non-African dark skinned peoples have other boxes they must check such as South Asian.--Editingoprah 18:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Unlike the US Census which has official extents to its terms, the UK Census only offers terms and expects the respondent to decide who is included.  A South Asian could mark "Black or Black British", even if the UK expected them to mark "Asian or British Asian".   A Malaysian might decide they are a "Black or Black British".--Dark Tichondrias 20:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Concepts like Asian are not outside the realm of anthropology.  A number of modern anthropologists reject the Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid system as having scientific validity.  In forensics, this system uses arbitrary cranial indeces.  Even anthropologists who are not cultural or linguistic may find the concept of an Asian to be a race.  Race means different things to different anthropologists.  A number of anthropologists like the ones who wrote the US Census racial categories find that self-identity is a valid way to determine race.--Dark Tichondrias 17:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite. If you're a white South African who became a U.S. Citizen, you may self-identify as an African-American, but that doesn't give you the ricght to check the census box marked Black. And race is defined by common genetic heritage. A number of anthropologists dispute the existence of race more so than its definition.  But even if you wanted to define the Black race by culture or language, there's no justification to lump both Australoids and South Asians in with Africans under the heading "Black people".  I have no problem with the Untouchables of India self-identifying with the African-American experience, but again, this just makes my point that Blackness is all about the pan-African gene-pool, culture, or struggle.--Editingoprah 18:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything goes back to User:Editingoprah's belief that race means genetics.  Which doesn't take into account the other definitions for race.  Look, how about the article have the genetic point of view that sub-Saharan Africans, Southeast Asians, South Asians, and Australians form genetically distant groups and also have the other interpretation that they are Black because some choose to identify as Black.--Dark Tichondrias 20:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: But why do they choose to self-identify as Black? In the case of the Untouchables of India,  they identified with the African-American struggle. That's why I think it makes far more sense to equate Blackness with pan-Africanism because that allows us to both have a coherent theme that allows us to discuss non-African people from a cultural or political conception of Blackness. But we should also point out that non-African self-identified Blackness appears to have no formal or official status (i.e. census records) nor is it justified on racially genetic grounds since the physical anthropological category known as Negroid does not include non-Africans, and dark-skinned non-Africans are completely unrelated to the sub-Saharan family that dominates the word Black.--Editingoprah 20:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That is not the main reason. They were struggling BECAUSE they are Black. They identified with other Black people because they SHARED the same struggle.  They didn't know enough about that because they were colonized. The word didn't get to them without any kind of communication. There was no Internet back then. Only through visual video recordings and travel between the two groups did the Dalits see the fact "oh these people are just like us!". Negroid certainly includes non Africans, why are the Asian Negritos called such? EO I really think you are a white racist guy at this point. You are following the same logic they follow. Pidgeon-hole the black people into a narrow classification. It's beeen the most effective way to weaken us politically, socially, and culturally. --Zaphnathpaaneah 09:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with User:Paul Barlow if Black has been used to describe black-skinned Australians and Indians by British, that they are arguably also blacks.  I also agree with User:Paul Barlow in his/her argument that genetics would not give the distinct race of sub-Saharan Africans User:Editingoprah is pushing, but would give a loose grouping of regional groups or family clans as separate from the non-African populations as they are from each other.--Dark Tichondrias 07:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: User:Editingoprah has pushed the same argument ad nauseum that real authority comes from science which comes from genetics which actually does not support his/her conclusion for the sub-Saharan African race.  I disagree with User:Editingoprah's argument for giving less weight to usages which come from outside the United States due to their perceived ignorance.  They are not really ignorant about the social usage of black, but about the racial reality User:Editingoprah claims lies in human genetics. The lexical argument which User:Editingoprah originally favored showed dispute, causing him/her to revert to his/her genetic authority argument.  In reality, aside from acclaimed geneticists who have made their pre-assumed POV racial categories fit genetics, genetics is not a foundation to build an argument for objective racial categories.  User:Editingoprah chooses to not acknowledge the possibility of race outside of his/her POV-constructed racial categories he/she claims are based on genetics, so there seems to be no way to argue with him/her by couching racial classification in the social construction perspective.  I think the best solution for the arguers is to analyse User:Editingoprah's two shaky premises: (1)Genetic races exist. (2)Race implies genetics.--Dark Tichondrias 07:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the scientific support for a sub-Saharan race is overwhelming, because Africans and non-Africans was the original division of human kind, and whether scientists use the term "race" or not, the genetic research from several different studies all confirms that sub-Saharan DNA defines a unique genetic cluster.  And even before the days of extensive genetic research, the term Negro and Negroid (which is derived from the Latin word for Black) was one of the three major anthropological categories and described sub-Saharans.  But even ignoring genetics and anthropology, and looking at social identity, the social identity of being Black involves being African or having ancestors from the African diasporas, or in the case of the Indian Untouchables, being able to relate to the African-American experience.  Also, the fact that blacks calling each other "Brother" and "Sister" defines a unique yet global social group that comes from "Mother Africa". Even the black scholars who claim that ancient Indians are Black, are not arguing that non-Africans being included in the definition. Instead they're arguing that the ancient Indians were an Africoid people. So again, Black is all about Africa--Editingoprah 16:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Negro and Negroid are relevant to the Black people article but Africoid is not.  Negro means black and Negroid means similar to black, but Africoid means similarity to Africans.  Even if black scholars thought Indians were Africoid (similar to Africans), the relevant information would be if they thought Indians were Negroid (similar to Blacks).  Since Africoid is irrelevant, I will use the term Negroid.  If the Black scholars thought Indians were Negroid (similar to Blacks), then that shows Indians are arguably Black people.--Dark Tichondrias 17:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Africoid and Negroid have the same meaning. One emphasized colour, the other emphasizes place of origin, but both describe the same race. Now I'm not really interested in arguing whether Indians were Africoid or not, but what I am saying is that Indians are only considered Black to the extent that they are believed to be Africoid, or that they self-identify with the African-American struggle (i.e. The Untouchables). It's this notion of Blackness independent of sub-Sahran DNA or pan-African culture that is extremely fringe and is given way too much weight in the current article--Editingoprah 18:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No They don't have the same meaning. The emphasis is critical and makes all the difference. YOU see the similarity as more meaningful than others. I do not. Your circular again. INdians are not considered to be black to the extent they are considered to be Africoid. They are considered to be black BECAUSE they look black, which is why they are ALSO considered to be Africoid. I really don't know why you think the Untouchable struggle owes it's origins to African Americans. Do you realize that MLK's peace protests were inspired BY Ghandi (not the other way around) and that it was Ghandi (not MLK, nor any other American) that created the Scheduled Caste political group? The genetic pre-disposition you have is the fringe position. Bear in mind, genetic profiling is a new concept, and I do not recall it being taught in schools and I know my younger family members are not taught this in school either. You speak much like Dienekes Pontikos, a man I have perodically engaged over the years. He swears by a genetic philosophy on classifying humans by racial groups. Are you him? --Zaphnathpaaneah 09:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Social identity is not a separate area from anthropology.  User:Editingoprah labeled his/her first analaysis as anthropological and his/her second as a social identity.  Anthropology includes both biological anthropologists, physical anthropologists and cultural anthropologists as well as others.  It is true that sub-Saharan Africans cluster genetically, and they also cluster into regional groups genetically, but not all biological anthropologists would agree that there does exist a sub-Saharan African race.  Physical anthropologists use descriptive identifiers for archaic specimens and might use the Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid system for recent remains, but could still acknowledge that social identify was also a legitimate way to classify races.  Cultural anthropologists would most likely listen to self identity.  All three of these listed types of anthropologists could agree that social identity was a legitimate racial designation, making social identity not outside the realm of anthropological merit.--Dark Tichondrias 17:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, but I was talking about physical anthropology.  From a cultural perspective, there appears to be no coherent black identity outside of the pan-African experience or those like the untouchables of India who identify with it.--Editingoprah 18:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: State of the article

message: Erasing blackness through willy nilly reclassification is not going to do you guys any good. I know that some anthropologists classify Aboriginals as "caucasians" that doesnt mean anything. in fact, that simply makes "Caucasian" have less of a relevant meaning. It certainly destorys any unbiased honest credibility. You don't take a term and simply expand it's meaning to include everything you can think of, just to bolster some social construct. 
These are the links I'm going to post, some I had posted before.
http://edition.cnn.com/US/9707/16/racial.suit/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4271003
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheedi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ethiopian
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0009/feature3/zoom3.html
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/india.html
http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/Synopsis%206.htm
Virtually all of these sources emphasize the idea that Blackness is linked to African ancestry. Thank you for making my point.--Editingoprah 16:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References that WILL be put in the article 

message: EO (EditingOprah) has made this statement in various ways many times: I think we need to make it clear that they (Aboriginals) were called Blacks because of their physical resemblance with Africans. 
A question came to my mind. Why did the Europeans call the Africans black? The answer to that question is more fundamentally important and relevant to this article. Because the same reason is present for Africans, Asians, and Australians. Let's keep something in mind here. European colonization is around 500 years old. Africans themselves were no more nor less articulating themselves as Black than any dark-skinned Asian and Aboriginal. Yet they still DID articulate themselves, all three groups, throughout history. It is just by human (not European) capacity to see hues and contrasts, that the European also noticed this in comparision to themselves. Yet we know that Africans, Aboriginals, and others related to the European as "white" (in contrast to themselves). The same reason the Europeans called the Africans black is the same reason they called the Aboriginals black. That reason is the same reason that they may (or may not) erroneously believed the Aboriginal to be linked to the African more than they actually are. That only heightens the obvious fact that the aboriginal was recognizeable as a 'black' person. Same with those of the Asians. Only when the Asians became aware of the African stigma... only when they were colonized psychologically to Negrophobia or Afrophobia would they yell "no I'm not black, because I'm not African!". That Negrophobia is why you'll have Asians in here swearing that there are no native black people in Asia. --Zaphnathpaaneah 08:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isolated EditingOprah's Circular argument

message: Someone should request mediation, if none of the regular contributors does, I will. George 23:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was already a request in the "Current requests for unprotection" section. I have added yours to that one.--Ezeu 15:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unprotected. Good luck resolving the issues. Rich Farmbrough 16:27 2  August 2006 (GMT).
I have requested mediation from the Mediation Cabal at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/Black people. --Ezeu 06:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation

message: For the third time I have taken this statement out of the article (Reasons repeted below): 
"The Spanish word Negro which came from the Latin word Nigris, which eventually came to denote the color black, originally was a geographic designation. The natives of what is today Nigeria were referred to by the Romans regarding their proximity to the River Niger. The Berber name of the river is Gher-n-gher. The Romans apparently Latinized the Berber name to Niger or Nigris. Hence, the people who lived around the river became known, in Latin, as the Nigritae. Eventually, the dark waters of the Niger and the dark skin of the Nigritae would combine in Roman vernacular to replace the ancient Latin word for black (ater). Negro eventually came to mean "black colored" in Latin and in its descendant languages."
If anyone posting this would actually READ the history of the Niger river, the romans called it "DASIBARI". The Songhay word Isa-Ber "big river" sounds a lot like Dasi-Bari, and if you are going to take and etymological approximation, at least use the one that is more consistent. The Berber people that WE recognize, and that is implied in the article (i.e. the berber people that use gher-n-gher to describe the Niger river) did not exist in the region, even. Although Romans used the word "berber" broadly to refer to barbarians (foreigners), that is not sufficient to link unrelated people (northern saharan berbers, and Niger Delta Africans) together to postulate a unified linguistic explanation. 
This is the text taken directly from the Wikipedia Niger River article.
The nations of Nigeria and Niger are named after the river. The people who live along it have a variety of names for it, notably Jeliba in Manding and Isa Ber "big river" in Songhay. The Romans had heard of the Niger and called it Dasibari; the middle and lower course of the Niger was also known as Quorra, also of unknown origin.
The mouth of the Niger river near Nigeria is no where near the bend in Timbucktu, nor the outlet in the Guinea area (where that portion of the river likely was named by the Berbers LATER). As the Nigeria Wiki article indicates clearly, there is no way the Romans had circumnavigated the entire river. THey did not KNOW the Guinea outlet linked to the Nigerian portion. In fact, that was not "discovered" until the late 19th century. The reason this annoys me is because again we are giving the European credit for "naming" the entire black people of the world, which is based on a lie. As I have pointed out before. Black people (yes, even black people) have and had the capacity to see objectively their skin color, and objecvely describe it as dark or black. In addition, as ancient documents show, the descriptions of black people are found in Egyptian writings, Biblical writings, Rig Veda, Arabic writings etc. The "ENGLISH/LATIN" word may not be found there, but we know that the word "Niger" was used to describe other people in antiquity:
Acts 13:1
In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. (Look at any translation of the Bible in antiquity preceeding the EUropean colonization of Africa. Simon is called Niger all the way back to the original vulgate. He was never called "Simon called Ater" 
Since the contributor indicates that Gher-n-Gher is the source of this word, in antiquity, it is sloppy to rely on "apparently" as a credible way to conclude that this word originated from an uncited source, from a people who were not even present in the region. (There were no Sahari or Nigerois based "berbers" near the third course of River Niger. Since the romans would call anyone "Berber", that also makes this kind of conclusion impossible to verify. The "Berber" people are a mix and hodgepodge of a variety of related people. Some even had a written language during roman periods. This is now the fourth time I have disputed this claim and I would really like it if the next person that puts the Berber explanation in, they cite this from a credible source and put a little 1 at the end. Credible means credible, not self-published and not another website that makes the same statement with no real research. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dasibari not Gherngher 

message: My contributions were referted without explanation, despite my contributions having an explanation. For extra credit, i will itemize each change and explanation
* The Spanish word Negro comes from the Latin word Nigris, which eventually came to denote the color black. - This was moved to the second paragraph for 2 reasons. 1. Black the word is used in the first paragraph as it's english definition and origin. It is not based on Spanish or Latin. No other word for black person is mentioned here. The word Negro is better placed in the second paragraph where Latin culture describes their interpretation of black and african people. If necessary I will take out the "negro" word in the top of the page and just leave this as 'black'. 
* , Aboriginals, Aeta, Melanesians and others - this was restored because these three groups certainly are not part of the yellow, white, or red color groups based upon skin tone as perceived by Europeans of the time. They are part of the black color group perceived by Europeans at the time. 
* (Semi-voluntary because if you "look White" to the average American you have a choice; if you "look Black" to the average American you do not have a choice.) was replaced with  The Black identity in America includes people of various mixtures, whereas the white identity does not include bisually perceptible mixtures of black ancestry. because first, this semi-voluntary statement is not being described with how one chooses to look, but how others internalize their origins. You certainly cannot choose how you 'look' but there is nothing logical about choosing how others perceive you. My statement addresses the deeper point which is society refuses to accept a black-mixed person as anything other than black. If you can word it better than that then do so. But the revert is confusing, and illogical. 
* I changed always lacked endogamous color lines to have often ignored endogamous color lines because it's also true. Endogamy has to do with marriage and procreation. Latino culture certainly has segments that follow endogamy within 'white' and 'black' color groups. Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic has it's racially divisive areas. Although it's often ignored, there is no lacking of it's existence. They do practice endogamy albeit much less frequently than the U.S.
Edit/Revert #1 completed. Shall we go to 2 of 3? --Zaphnathpaaneah 09:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  EditingOprah and Zaph's prelude to an Edit war 

message: Don't think me flippant but maybe we could upload the discussion page to the mainspace - would illustrate the cultural basis of the definition of "black people" far better than a well referenced feature-article-style article ever could!!  Shiftaling 15:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RADICAL IDEA 

message: The recent indiscriminate revert by 67.49.221.43 is totally out of line. Firstly, the revert he chooses is an earlier version of the article that I had wrote which was seriously needing contributions, refinements, and cleaning up. Secondly, the article obviously takes EditingOprah's POV regarding the supremacy of American POV, genetic DNA interpretation since two of the paragraphs in the beginning differ from the overall article I wrote a few months back. What makes this position so annoying is that I already put a strong contribution originally, acknowledging the impact of Black Americans on worldwide Black identity. This section below highlights the ad nauseum position of EO regarding the philosophy that Black Americans have the most legitimacy in being black:  
*There has been a strong position by African Americans that regional proximity to Africa proper is and should be the third defining characteristic of blackness. This belief has been bolstered by the Afrocentric, Negritude and Negrisimo movements of the 20th century, which focused on socio-economic unity between Africa and black people of the West. Driving these movements is a desire to improve the perception of the West African diaspora (most black people in the Western Hemisphere originate from West Africa), whose contributions to the history and culture of the West have often been maligned or ignored. Certain aspects of African American culture and history, especially the American Civil Rights and Black Power movements and the international cultural phenomena of various African American musical expressions have played a role in increasing the pride of people of black identity around the world.
Now, since I put IN the article, the significance of American Black perspectives, I find it absurd that we keep pushing for an exclusivity to black americans. Enough! --Zaphnathpaaneah 15:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent revert by  

message: EO - name one Black civilization that existed outside of Africa. Name one black group of people that existed historically outside of Africa, which were NOT slaves, which were NOT just "troops and mercenaries". NAME ONE. --Zaphnathpaaneah 03:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, I'm right. This edit war is all about you being ashamed that our ancestors were slaves, and thus you must define your blackness by people who you're not even remotely related to (i.e. South Asians) because you're ashamed of the people who are related to you (slaves). I think its quite terrible that after all our ancestors went through to free themselves from slavery, and build a better life for the descendants of the African diasporas, we now have people like you who are so ashamed of our race that you want to define it out of existence and transform Blackness into this vague meaningless category that contains all dark skinned people, and not just the people were related to. You don't even want there to be a word to describe that describes people of sub-Saharan African ancestry.  You don't even want to entertain the idea that you share a unique genetic bond with these people.  You obviously don't feel the Black race is good enough because if you did, you wouldn't feel the need to keep inviting people into it, hoping the newcomers will improve it.  White people take the opposite view. They treat the white race as an exclusive club. We need to show the same pride here. Instead your so desperate to recruit people into the Black race that you're even willing to accept people who you yourself said wont even publicly call themselves Black.  Instead of taking pride in your Blackness, and your rich sub-Saharan DNA, your attitude seems to be "if I have to call myself Black, then these other dark skinned people do too".  I'm really starting to think you need professional help.  And the group of Black people that historically existed outside of Africa was the group that left Africa 70,000 years ago and spread to every corner of the globe, giving rise to all the other races.--Editingoprah 03:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Zaph, you're not making any sense.  Black is just a word.  You can broaden the definition of the word to include as many people as you want, but it still doesn't change the reality that the people we're most related to stayed in Africa.  The fact that all the races of the world come from Africans obviously proves the fact that Africans were capable of leaving Africa, because at the time that they left, and for thousands of year there after, they were still Africans.  And what's the big deal about leaving Africa or staying in Africa?  Everyone has to live somewhere, and the fact that our ancestors didn't have to leave means they were obviously successful where they were.--Editingoprah 03:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am really starting to believe you are not black, but just a poser. Some white dude with end goal of making this a "nigger" based article. You use that silly rear-end logic to get a point across and you don't answer a question directly. Or maybe you are Indian or something else and you hate the idea of some of your people being Black. You remind me of that Egyptian guy that complained about black people trying to steal Egyptian history. He kept saying that blacks shouldn't have to resort to such things, they should be proud of what they have and he mentioned the Kushite empire. The Ancient Egyptians weren't black to you either were they? Come on. It's just a few hundred miles to Asia from Egypt. May as well throw them out too. Heck, the Ethiopians aren't really black either. I am sure you agree with your white scholars who told you they are genetically closer to Europeans than Africans. Read the first section at the top of this talk page please. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're questioning my Blackness because I want to preserve the word Black to describe my unique sub-Saharan DNA?  Believe it or not, there are actually Sub-Saharans who are proud of their sub-Saharan DNA and want to preserve the word Black to describe it.  And Ethiopians are sub-Saharan so they are Black.  Take a look at this chart which graphs genetic distance between populations.[]  It clearly shows that all the sub-Saharans cluster together (including East Africans) but it also shows that we're not at all related to Dravidians and Australoids.--Editingoprah 05:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You are still running around in circles. DNA is DNA. I don't find the genetic code something to feel anything about. What I find proud of as a black man is the accomplishments of my people, the way we spoke up through our struggle, and despite the current cultural self-destruction of Rap music, the way hip-hop had once again been another artform of expression that now dominates the world. You still like the word Sub-saharan, and like the idea of using the desert as the regional association of who we are. Why not just African? Why not Equatorial African? First Black was just a word, now you keep showing me over and over... wait. I know what to do here. Look at the final section. Let's let the audience decide.  --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Sub-Saharan DNA is a genetic biological reality, and redefining Blackness to include South Asian and Australoid DNA in no way changes that reality, it just confuses the hell out of people.--Editingoprah 05:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That sounded like it was a long time coming. A lot of valid points. It's hard to know what to add to that.--Jcvamp 03:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Zaph, EO is willing to compromise. Do you agree that there are other opinions besides yours? Are you willing to let other opinions show? I do not agree with EO, but at least he is willing to compromise. What do you want? In what way are you being helpful?--Ezeu 03:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Zaph if your so against letting white people define your Blackness, then why do you call yourself Black at all? It's a white man's word. Why not find some East Indian word for Black (since you seem to wish you were Indian)and start calling yourself that, and then you can create that article instead and leave this one alone.--Editingoprah 04:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: So because there were no sub-Saharan civilizations outside of Africa, we must now reject our sub-Saharan DNA and define Blackness so broadly we must include people we're not related to?  How pathetic is that?  Being so embarassed of your own people that you have to associate yourself with unrelated dark skinned people; dark skinned people who don't even want to be related to you.  Essentially what you're saying is that sub-Saharans are losers and so anyone who defines Blackness by sub-Saharan DNA is somehow dehumanizing black people.  That's the most Afrophobic thing I've ever heard.  And btw what difference does it make whether a civilization was in or out of Africa?--Editingoprah 04:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So your answer is "there are no black civlizations outside of Africa". Cool. I just wanted to see you finally say it. Now, on to the next miserable belief you have. "reject our DNA and define blackness so broadly we include people we are not related to". Ok I am going to teach you something:
*Accepting others does not cause us to reject ourselves.
*Associating with others does not mean I am ashamed of who I am. 
*Black is a skin color.
*I do not distance myself from Black Americans, Black Africans, when I take an interest in the parallel experiences of black Asians and Australians. 
See this is the part about your personality that I am focusing on. You cannot reach out to others without feeling a disconnect, nor can you feel connected with others without feeling a seperation from who you are. I on the other hand can do both. I can feel the concept of those being my people, in Africa, in America, in Asia, in Australia, in Latin America. Your conclusions are drawn by the same tired political doubletalk. I like ice cream because I like cold water (both are cold so that must be why!). I hate to break your 1980s belief system, but the fact is, I relate to Black Americans, Black Africans and Black Asians equally. Can talk to and interact with each in the same way as a black man and not feel the disconnect you feel. I don't see them as "others". Nor do I disrespect their struggle by ignorantly pretending to act like their struggle was unrelated to prejudice due to their skin color. I wish you would go to Australia, and go to an Aboriginal area and tell them they aren't black, tell them that their oppression wasn't due to the racism they experienced due to their skin color. They would whoop your butt for being so ignorant. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zaph, taking a word that is used to describe your unique genetic bond with sub-Saharans, and destoying its meaning by including non-Africans, means that you are rejecting the unique genetic bond you share with sub-Saharans.  No one's stopping you from uniting with Australoids and Indians,  but why do you have to use the word "Black" to do it? Why not just call this broader goup dark skinned people? Why do you feel the need to take from sub-Saharans a word that describes their unique genetic kinship, unless you reject said kinship?  If you used another word like "dark skinned people" to describe your bond with non-Africans,  you could accept other dark skinned races without rejecting your own, but you show no interest in doing so.--Editingoprah 06:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Ultimate Question 

message: This is false, Ethiopians are more Caucasion than negroid, but mentioning the fact that there are more negroids in Ethiopia is false, I am removing this statement made in the article, if anyone is against this, please read the section in the Caucasion article.. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cluckbang (talk • contribs) . 13:23, July 10, 2006
Cluckbang, you have a supporter from a black guy called EditingOprah. If you work with him, I am sure he can help you prove your position. --Zaphnathpaaneah 04:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Lets Do This

message: I grew up ignorant of much of history as most black kids in inner city American schools. Even though my social studies teacher in middle school did a lot to educate us about Africa. It wasn't until high school (predominantly black high school) that I was awakened about some fundamental things. 1. Europe is not a continent, and slavery was never something that was morally justified, even when the Europeans tried to. Slavery started with arbitrary laws identifying Black Africans as "aliens" and that, not Christianity, not anything else, gave credibility to the first black slavery laws in America. However, what baffled me was this one simple question. Why were there no black people outside of Africa. Why did we stay in the continent. So I did a search to see historically what was going on. I thought maybe we had been slaves since the dawn of recorded history. Lo and behold, what do I find? Only the opposite. Black civilizations all along the Indian Ocean from Africa to Indonesia existed long before Europe. In addition Nigerian civilizations had been seafaring for millenia, and had created elaborate macroscuptures. I saw pictures of East Asians that looked just like Nigerians and Native Americans that built the stone heads in southern mexico. But there are people out there who seek to misconstrue history. They are the ones that go "no no no, those weren't black, they were not like you. They were different because they have different DNA that you don't have. They are different because they weren't in the same region of the world as you. Their accomplishments are not your own." I find that odd. Most Europeans are not greek nor Egyptian, neither East Indian nor Australian  yet they claim that because Egyptian and Greek people ultimately share some common traits, they are of the same common sense origins. Even though some of these traits are just universal, like having five fingers and two eyeballs. Skull shapes of Hebrews are extremely different than Europeans, but somehow, both are considered "caucasoid". Ethiopians look nothing like Europeans but both are Caucasians. Yet the East Asians that resemble black Africans are not black. Why? Because of other reasons. Reasons not used to differentiate whites from "their caucasoid brethren". Reasons not considered relevant to white historians. I came across those swearing that the Zimbabwe civilization was only created due to the presence of Semetic and Jewish ancestors, the blacks couldn't have done it on their own. And on and on, everything that shows anything of a civilized accomplishment with black people is just a desperate hope now. So what's left. We adopt that kind of thinking and focus all of our attention on Nigeria? The only Black civilization left? I certainly agree that Nigeria has it's own historical accomplishments and I would certainly put their antiquity  on par with any other great civilization. But that's not the facts, I shouldn't have to dwell on some absurd notion of blackness to see that black HUMANS (that includes Africans) were capable of doing what they did. Then I find out about the Dalits, the Aeta, the people of Basra, and how they suffered and struggled and how they, like us were told how little we contributed to civilization and how we were just slaves. Fascinating. Because each of these people are described as 'black' in variously common ways. Yet again, here we are, discussing this matter from the butt-ended side. Even to the point where we are being told to adopt white racist racial thinking about blackness. Isn't blackness unlike whiteness? Isn't the experiences of black people different and should be treated differently? But, no, to some, we can't even leave the shores of Africa without being in chains. Heck, we were content to just... what was the words, do great things in the continent. How long do we have to endure this bubble thinking? How long do we have to adopt a 19th century divide and conquer "us and them" philosophy to have pride? I do not see how a dalit, with different DNA or a Aeta, with different DNA is any more different than the DNA is different between Martin Luther King, David Dorr, Malcolm X, and so on. These people are mixed with Native American, and White ancestry. Should their accomplishments be contextualized by the fact that they are "partly genetically different than the pure African"? How much of that contributes to them? All of this nonsense about DNA only helps to affirm that myth. Every black leader out there nowadays is always mentioned to be mixed. The president of Liberia, who I believe and hope is turning things around, look at her article. So that is what I see when I see DNA being used as a 'reason'. It's used to justify racism, and justify racial stereotyping. It's just used to pidgeon hole people, especially black people into narrow social constructs that, like the continent of Europe, only change to suit the needs of the people in power. I see it for what it is. --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zaph, as much as you may take pride in the accomplishments of non-African dark skinned people, the reality is that we are not related to them. They are not the same race as we are, and no amount of calling these people Black or of posting photos of dark skinned South Asians is going to make them related to us. And this is not me internalizing some arbitrary Eurocentric bias, it is an objective reality of science.  Look at this chart.[]
It shows the genetic distance between populations and shows who is related to who, and to what degree.  Now you can focus on some superficial thing like skin color and say "hey, they're like me" but the fact of the matter is those are not our people.  They do not have the same ancestors as we have.  You need to learn to love your sub-Saharan DNA and stop looking to people outside it to feel good about yourself.  Denying science just makes you look ignorant.  And by the way, white people have to accept the fact that they're not Oriental. They didn't invent the printing press, navigational equipment, gun powder, money-all of those things were invented in China, and no amount of white skin among the Northern Chinese will ever change the fact that Chinese people are not white--Editingoprah 05:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not pushing for the DNA analysis to dominate the article.  I want to leave the article as it is.  All I'm saying is that your connection to other dark skinned people in South Asia is only skin deep and thus is by definition quite superficial so I have no idea why it gives you so much comfort.  And Black has come to mean far more than just a skin color.  It's come to represent a huge extended family that was scattered all over the world by slavery and not all dark skinned people are part of that family so calling all dark people Black is confusing.  Now I have no problem with you bonding with dark skinned people, but I personally (and this just my opinion) think you should all unite under the heeading "dark skinned people" because calling non-Africans Black creates confusion. And I'm not ashamed to admit there was never a Black civilization out of Africa, unless you count America, which Black people helped to build, and have contributed quite a bit to culturally (rock, jazz, gospel, hip-hop).--Editingoprah 06:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Final Word

message: This is merely a suggestion, and skimming the above suggests that a pinko grey person like myself may not be acceptable as a contributor, but should there not be a mention somewhere of people described as Red? As a fan of Speckled Red and especially Tampa Red, they come to mind first. Dunno how current the term is, but obviously this is a description that had currency and in my opinion should have a mention. ...dave souza, talk 10:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you are suggesting. Yes, "red" and "yellow" have also been used as racial designations in the past, but are now never used, except perhaps jokingly, or as historical terms. Red Indians currently redirects to Indigenous peoples of the Americas. We also have an article on the Yellow peril. Nevertheless, the fact is that people still define themselves as "black" and as "white", but "red" and "yellow" are not used as ethnic self-designations. Paul B 13:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Guess it would be just that: that these were used (in the 1930s?) and are now obsolete, presumably with the exception of entertainers: didn't Yellowman take his name from this? ..dave souza, talk 13:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well start articles on the historical use of the labels Yellow people and Red people, but I don't think there's really enough material to sustain articles, because the terms have no current meaning that differs from other anthropological labels. Both are already covered in color metaphors for race. Paul B 23:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: p.s. It seems that "red people" is already covered by Redskin. Paul B 23:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Apparently a misunderstanding, what I was thinking of wasn't in either article, but Color metaphors for race#Color gradations seemed the obvious place to add some description, so I've done so. ..dave souza, talk 14:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting additions. I hope some of your information can be included here - if common sense ever breaks out that is. Paul B 14:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad you found it of interest, I'm a bit tied up elsewhere to try fitting it into this article just now, but give me a shout if you want me to produce a brief summary that could go in this article. ..dave souza, talk 23:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Red

message: A recurring issue here is very lenghty posts reasserting past thoughts. Bloviation is not going to make anyone seem more intelligent or lend more weight to a point addressed over and over again. It will in fact have the opposite effect. There is a lot of circular argumentation going on here. Editors need to find common ground and work from there. Look for the positive in the comments made by those with differing views and work with it. If you see some point you don't like, avoid it for now and you may likely find it gets worked out later once good communication has been established. I see a lot of agreement in basic ideas here but no work towards consensus. From what I can tell everybody seems to agree on the issues they just don't reply as such. There is way too much ego and not enough compromise. George 20:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zaph the editing you want to do is all original research which is not allowed in wikipedia.  The version that is locked in place now lasted for 6 straight months with no major changes untill July 1st when the article was ruined.  You don't have the right to just march into an excellent stable article and rearange the world's conception of Blackness with your extremist views. The version in place is well balanced and proportional and frankly already gives your fringe views more weight than they deserve, and edits that you wish to make which will treat your own eccentric views as if they were equal to the mainstream. This is a violation of wikipidea's no undue weight policy.  The people you feel are Black are people most of the world knows nothing about so the world really hasn't had an opportunity to decide if those people are Black,  and so claims that they are Black are mostly anecdotal and unencyclopedic in nature.  Sure some might be called Black in other languages, but this is an English language version of wikipedia and so the norms of English language must be adheared to in the strictest possible way.  There are hundreds of millions of people of sub-Saharan ancestry in the world today, and so their exclusive claim to Blackness is the status quo in virtually every English speaking culture in the world and frankly between the 7 foot tall Watusis and the 5 foot tall Pygmies, between the pure Black tribes of Africa and nearly white looking Blacks in some parts of the U.S., from rich African kingdoms to poor African-American slaves,there is so much diversity among sub-Saharans that these other unrelated dark skinned people are really just a superfluous distraction.--Editingoprah 02:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes my opinion is the American opinion, but it's also the British opinion, the Canadian opinion, the South American opinion, the African opinion,   the Middle Eastern opinion   , the scientific opinion   .   It's the opinion of virtually every country in the world   that uses the English word Black in a racial context and its so wide spread an opinion that its even been institutionalized into census definitions and thus mandated by law .  See I can cite census definitions and dictionaries. I can even back those up with DNA showing that Blackness as I define it is far more than skin deep. All you can do is show picture of dark skinned Asians and misinterpret ancient scriptures that aren't even from the English language perspective the English language version of wikipedia must follow. You talk about the experience of Blackness that these non-Africans share. Sorry but that's all POV and original research. Native Americans have been treated very badly too. That doesn't make them Black.--Editingoprah 04:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: What about Arabs, then? Specifically those from Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and other Gulf States in the Arabian peninsula? Genetically, Saudi Arabians and Ethiopians are closer than Italians and Swedes (who are both unequivocally classified as white), so should Saudi Arabians be classified as black as well? "Black" is not merely based on genetics, though it certainly plays a part. It is to a large part socially defined. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 05:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Get past the nonsense

message: Not sure what is going on here but this sentence, "An African American (also Afro-American, Black American, or black), Albino is a member of an ethnic group in the United States whose ancestors, usually in predominant part, were indigenous to Africa." makes absolutley no sense - the word "Albino" looks like vandalism introduced by this edit which claims to be a reversion of vandalism but the history is so unclear as to figure out what version the editor was reverting back to so it could have been random vandalism right before that. In any case - an admin should remove the word. --Trödel 01:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I noticed that too. It's a poorly worded sentence. I guess the point that they're making is that Black is all about having African ancestry and has nothing to do with color, since a Negroid albino is still Black and since there are non-Black ethnic groups that have Black skin.--Editingoprah 02:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Albino?? 

message: There is no reason to remain locked. Watch for the violations and correct them, that's all I ask. --Zaphnathpaaneah 03:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article hasn't even locked for a week yet. At least give it a few months so that you have time to calm down.--Editingoprah 04:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unlock the article please 

message: Let's start from the top, scientifically speaking.
*Black - literally at the basic term refers to dark color. In the basic sense refers to humans with dark colored skin. So on that level, I certainly am right. Black people are black skinned people. Europeans and non-europeans alike all over the world, and all throughout history wrote this without reservation. From Herodotus to Arab Scholars to the Chinese. They all used words to describe black skinned people as black. 
*DNA - DNA strands are atoms connected via molecules. Scientifically one cannot determine anyone's skin color from looking at any DNA strand except those related to melanin content. To a lesser degree phenotype plays a role as people with Equatorial (that is places where hot humid weather reigns and darker skin is most likely) origins. That also will be shown in some DNA relationship. However, it is UNscientific to arbitrarily decide what UNrelated DNA strands should indicate 'blackness' or not. Any attempts to do so are UNscientific and are based on 19th century prejudices and western sensibilities, NOT objective science. 
*Historical origin - When the original emigrants of Africa left for the first time and crossed the Sinai peninsulia, or crossed the red sea into Yemen, they did not magically (nor scientifically) cease to become black. Scientifically speaking, some retained their blackness, throughout the millenia, whereas others did not. It is unscientific to state that Asians and Australians lost their blackness over time in history simply because they left Africa. African-Americans have not lost their blackness some being gone for 500 years. At some point, whoever wants to push this absurd notion that non-Africans are categorically not-black, they will have to explain how (with science) they lost this, at what period in time, and under what circumstances caused it. To merely say "their DNA differed from Continental Africans" is not enough, because as I stated above, DNA that is unrelated to phenotype and melanin does not determine how black someone is. Secondarily, DNA in people of mixed descent (once considered octoroons, and quadroons) is also extremely diluted of any African relationship, and those people also have a lot less physical similarity to black africans. It is UNscientific to call them black still, yet reject Asians as black. 
*Social Engineering - is not science. Social engineering is NOT SCIENCE. I will repeat it again. SOCIAL ENGINEERING IS NOT SCIENCE. Do not call social enginnering "science" because that is a lie. If one arbitrarily decides that a group is of a "race" based on subjective relationships unrelated to their appearance or experiences, then they are being UNscientific, UNobjective, and DISHONEST. You cannot go to a place where you see a jet black, kinky haired nigerian looking Pinay filipino Aeta and watch a lightskinned straighhaired european looking African-American say "I am black, you are not". It is ABSURD. Notice I do not say that the African-American is not black either. I say that he has no right to tell the black Asian no. 
*Regional affiliation - Africa certainly plays a role in how we have SOCIALLY defined blackness in the west. But that is NOT SCIENTIFIC. When one relates back to historical DNA relationship to Africa, all they are doing is talking about ancestral links to African people. This is NOT the same thing as showing DNA relationship to black skin or black heritage over the course of time in pre-history. Regional affilliation to Africa plays a great role in shaping our perceptions of blackness in the west, however the experiences of black people in Asia are largely unfamilar to us. This is where it is critical that we not take an ignorant exclusive attitude. It is that same attitude that has caused people to view whites as inherently racist and prejudiced. In addition, the concepts of black and white have changed frequently over the past 200 years, going back and fourth across mixture and regional affiliation. Relying on census data is also UNscientific. 
--Zaphnathpaaneah 05:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zaph your being absurd.  Black and Negroid are just names that are used to describe people with sub-Saharan DNA.  Other people may be just as dark skinned, but they're generally called something else because the word Black is taken and calling Australoids and others by the same name that sub-Saharans use creates the impression that they're part of the sub-Saharan race which they're not.  It has nothing to do with color.  Maybe one day we'll discover a tribe of albinos hidden deep in the jungles of sub-Saharan Africa,  and they too will be called Black.  What your arguing is that the Black race should be redefined to include all the dark skinned peoples of the world, but that's nothing but opinion and original research which is against wikipedia policy, and so is recruiting a bunch of meat puppets.  You have no right to steal my race's name and unique identity away from us and give it to other people who btw don't even want it.  I've done a lot of research on Black identity, and no matter what country I looked in, Black was equated with African ancestry.  I looked up article on the Blacks of India expecting to find a ton of articles on the untouchables. Instead I found a bunch of articles on tiny population of Africans who were scattered through India during slavery.  I looked up "Blacks in Brazil" and found only articles about "Afro-Brazillians".  So again, the idea of Blackness being defined by African ancestry is very universal and must be reflect in an accurate article.  The few counterexamples you cite are the exception not the rule, and wikipedia policy states that marginal views should be marginalized within the articles. The people you describe as Black share only my skin color.  I want an article about people who are Black to the bone.  I take great pride in my sub-Saharan DNA and want an entire article devoted to people with sub-Saharan DNA, that explores the global experience of people with sub-Saharan DNA.  And the hundreds of millions of people with sub-Saharan DNA unite under the heading BLACK and we have no interest in sharing that title with others. People like you who can't feel good about your Blackness unless it's redefined to include non-African DNA, are essentially saying that sub-Saharans are not good enough by ourselves and so we must leach off the accomplishments of other races.  In other words you take so little pride in your sub-Saharan DNA, that you don't even want their to exist a word that groups you exclusively with your genetically similar others.  Thus you are trying to water the concept of Blackness down by including as many unrelated people as possible.  If our ancestors were alive they would be so ahamed in you for not taking enough pride in them and their struggle and instead acting like South Asians are your ancestors.--Editingoprah 03:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it is you comrade who brings shame on your ancestors and descendents - on yourself! To talk about 'sub-Saharan DNA' (dna does not have a geographical location - because people who are no longer in the sub-Saharan region share DNA types with those that are - ie PEOPLE MOVE - and are always moving!!! even the call to ancestry is dud because as u assert - all humanity comes from Afrika - ie is sub-Saharan!) - to refer to a human as 'black' is just ridiculous and racist! it is a historical term - a product of reductionist thinking - seeing the world as black and white, and a product of white supremacy - it will last as long as white power lasts and no longer! Scientifically, Black refers to Black Holes - dark matter and dark energy - it shows the limits and racism of European science - it is reflected in terms such as fair and enlightenment - because they cannot even see non-european peoples exisitng as humans. it is why tens of thousands non-europeans can die of hunger every day and all european and colonial powers contimue to be responsible for their murder! 195.92.40.49 15:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Scientific interpretation revisited

message: Have you two noticed that others have stopped contributing a long while ago?  This comes no nearer to consensus - so how does any of it help?  Shiftaling 11:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't. If Zaph and Editingoprah would be less dogmatic we could proceed without too much dispute. No-one denies that the dominant modern use of "black" as a racial label in English-speaking countries refers to people of sub-Saharan/Tropical African descent. The partial exception is Australia, for obvious reasons. This usage is not "scientific". Whether sub-Saharan African peoples constitute a unified "race" is another matter. It is disputed, and we can certainly discuss this debate. Likewise we should discuss the fact that the appelation "black" did not orginate with science but with simple observation of distinctive physical characteristics. Yes, there is a good argument that the label "black" has at various times been applied to non-Africans without any suggestion that they were related to Africans, indeed by people who were probably unaware of Africans. There's no real problem here. We should just discuss the full range of meanings both in modern times and historically, looking at how usage has developed throughout the world, and what that has meant in different cultures. Paul B 13:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hard too proceed without too much dispute when this article attracts so many self-hating sub-Saharans whose primary goal is to water down the concept of Blackness to the point where they get to associate themselves more with Indians than Africans so they can claim to be responsible for early Indian civilization which itself is controversial.  On top of that we got a few self-hating South Asians who are so desperate to fit in and be cool that they want to call themselves Black so they can leach off the stereotype of Negroids being good and sports, rhythm, and being sexually well endowed.  And then on top of that we have to deal with White anthropology majors who think they're educated,  even though they couldn't pass a course in genetics if there life depended on it.  And if that wasn't enough, we have to deal with white mates from down under who have been raised with so much racism that they're incapable of telling dark skinned people apart and are trying to impose their ignorant world-view on the rest of us. And then comes the original research.  Pal B writes:  Yes, there is a good argument that the label "black" has at various times been applied to non-Africans without any suggestion that they were related to Africans, indeed by people who were probably unaware of Africans.  I don't care how good you think the argument is.  Unless you can provide reliable references, it's not allowed.  I'm so sick of people thinking they can just ignore the no original research rule.  I've actually done research on where racial color metaphors came from, and cited the two anthropologists above who were responbible for divinding the races of the world into color categories in the English speaking world.  Both described exclusively Africans as Black.--Editingoprah 18:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The evidence for the highlit passage has already been discussed ad nauseaum. Please stop ranting. Paul B 23:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul B, it was Carolus Linnaeus in 1735 and Johann Blumenbach who were to my knowledge the first in recorded history to apply the label Black as a racial or ethnic classification and both of them equated it with Africans-indeed Blumenbach described the Malays as the Brown race.  I don't think Australia was settled by Europeans before 1788, and you've provided no evidence that the practice of calling Australian aboriginals Blacks predates the Linnaes or Blumenbach, and certainly the Europeans who settled Australia would have heard of African Blacks by that time.  Indeed Webster's dictionary defines Negroid as the African banch of the black race which means the belief that all dark skinned people were related to Africans was the English speaking norm, so if we're going to speculate, it makes sense to speculate that the English speaking Australians assumed Australoids were related to Negroids.  You can argue that dark skinned people were called Blacks in other languages by people unaware of Africans,  but the label "Black" was not used and the literal translation usually means "extremely dark" and not black per se.--Editingoprah 03:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that Australia wasn't settled by Europeans before 1788 and there was almost no contact before said settlement, why would you expect Linnaeus, writing half a century earlier to use such an application? Using Paul's Caucasian application, that's like saying that since the original use of the term "Caucasian" (in whatever language) only refered to people inhabiting the Caucasus mountains, any changes in meaning since then should be ignored. Likewise, the article on Asia should only concern itself with the Middle East, since India and East Asia weren't considered part of Asia in its original meaning. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 03:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I'm glad you mentioned the origins of the word Caucasian because it makes my point.  The original meaning of Caucasian may have applied only to the the people of the Caucacus mountains,  but it was expanded to include people who were assumed to be related to the people of the Caucasus mounatains.  Similarly, the concept of a Black race was originally used by Linnaeus and Blumenbach to apply to the peoples of sub-Saharan Africa, but in Australia the meaning was expanded to include the Australoid population who resembled Africans, and thus were probably thought to be related to them.  Paul's argument was that the label "Black" was applied to dark skinned people completely independently of its use to describe Africans, and by people who were unaware of Africans.  Perhaps he means words in other languages that mean "Black", and not the word "Black" itself.  Even assuming the former which sounds quite possible, finding references claiming the useage was independent of knowledge of Africans sounds difficult.--Editingoprah 04:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How does it make your point? The use of Caucasian today is obviously not limited to inhabitants of the Caucasus mountains; in fact, Nords are considered the epitome of "Caucasians" today. Whether the application of "black" was independent of knowledge of Africans doesn't matter (think Caucasians again), and I don't know what exactly you're talking about by "words in other languages that mean 'Black', and not the word "Black" itself." Obviously this article isn't supposed to simply concern itself with the usage by the English-speaking world, so whether the English word "Black" or an equivalent is/was used is inconsequential. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 04:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It makes my point in the sense that the word Caucasian was expanded to include people thought to be related to those from the Caucasus mountain, and so the word Black was probably expanded to include those who were thought to be related to Africans.  Now the reason the expanded meaning is retained today for Caucasians but not Blacks is because people got it right when they assumed that Nordics were related to folks from the Caucacus mountains, but they were made to look very foolish for ever thinking that Australoids were related to Africans.  And personally I think it's a dumb idea to write an article about all the people in the world who were ever called by the color black (i.e. Black Irish) throughout the entire course of world history. Such an article would be better called dark-skinned people or the sociological significance of the color Black. I would much rather see an article about Blacks as the term is defined today, and an article not about the term itself but rather about the race of people it describes-an article about African ancestry and the significance it had throughout world history. This semantic discussion about the history of the word "Black" is really quite boring and trivial. Now an article about the sociological significance of African ancestry across times and places would be absolutely fascinating.--Editingoprah 05:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Shiftaling, I don't think you can argue that just because someone has an understanding that differs from yours, that that person must be racist.  In fact I could argue that you're the racist one since you seem to be obsessed with lumping all the dark skinned people of the world together, as all prejudice people do.  That kind of language isn't helpful.--Editingoprah 02:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruin of Wikipedia 

message: Why aren't Paul B and others pushing their original research into the white people article, claiming that being white did not originate with science or Europeans, but that even light skinned North Chinese are white.  Why is there no controversy about Europeans or Caucasoids not sharing the title White with light skinned North East Asians, but Africans or Negroids are supposed to share the title Black with South Asians and Australoids.  I mean there is just so much debate and controversy within the African only definition of Black between the degree of African ancestry required in the U.S. vs Latin America vs. medical science vs. legal requirements that this whole aside about the marginal use of Blackness to describe dark-skinned non-Africans just seems like a superfluous distraction.  Yes, we can mention it, but keep it it in perspective.--Editingoprah 19:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because that's not how the term "white people" has been used. You are fetishising the word. It would be like objecting to the word "Caucasian" applied to people who are not from the Caucasus. Or rejecting the term "white" because they are pink. Paul B 23:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since when have facts stood in your way? You just make everything up anyway. So please go to the white people board and speculate that the Southern Chinese called the Northern Chinese white people, long before they were aware of Europeans.--Editingoprah 02:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The white people page has nothing to do wth it. Why are you and Zaph arguing over and over again? Never argue with a fool, people watching can't tell who the fool is. If you feel there is a need for 'northern chinese white people' to be included in another article then add it. George 03:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No of course I'm not suggesting Northern Chinese be added to the white people article.  I'm just trying to show that this kind of speculative cherry-picking from the historical record can be used to classify any group you want under any label you want.--Editingoprah 03:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, i do believe that in South Africa under apartheid, Japanese people were classified as white, so this is not cherry-picking, but more like cotton-picking - ie a job that as slaves we are forced to do just to survive... Also, please stop vandalising the Black British page as you evidently do not know about the particular circumstances there. For example the Runnymede Trust and  Radical Statistics Race Group, in the glossary to their joint book "Britain's Black Population" (London, 1980) define black as follows: "Generally used in this book to refer to the population of New Commonwealth countries and Pakistani origin, that is the population born in New Commonwealth countries and Pakistan and their children born here. When used this term does not imply a cultural homogeneity among the various groups to which it refers. (This corresponds to the definition New Commonwealth and Pakistani origin used by Office of Population Censuses and Surveys)."
In the introduction to the book, the editors Usha Prashar of the RT and Dave Drew of RSRG explain that:
"What immigrants from New Commonwealth and Pakistan (NCWP) and their children have in common is the material consequences and, in very many cases, the direct experience of discrimination. Discrimination, as the studies by Political and Economic Planning (PEP) have demonstrated, is based upon colour. Hence, the reference to Britain's black population. It can, of course, be argued that some immigrants and their children do not want to be labelled as black. That is not denied, but the defence of this terminology in this context lies with the fact that, irrespective of their own particular beliefs, experiences and the wide range of cultural variations, racism and racial discrimintation is a crucial determinant of their economic and social situation."
It may also interst you that the same glossary refers to race (racial group) as follows: "A term which was used in the late eighteenth and duruing the nineteenth century by scientists and public to refer to a supposedly biologically distinct section of homo sapiens. The scientific basis for such distinctions has now been discredited. However, the general popuilation continues to use the terms to refer to a group of persons who they identify as having different physical features from themselves. Because this usage has no scientific validity, the term is not used as a descriptive category in this book, except where usage by others requires." Hope that is useful... 195.92.40.49 09:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  hey Editingoprah - i just checked the History of South Africa in the apartheid era page which claims that " It should be noted that African-Americans were sometimes granted an 'honorary white' status as well, based on the government's belief that they are "civilised" and possess western values." Now what do you make of that? 195.92.40.49 11:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: How come the white (people) article doesn't have to deal with this crap?

message: The problem with this article is that it's far too broad in scope.  It would be like having an article called "Indian people" that focused on both people from India and Native Americans because they've both been called Indians at different times in history.  Of course no such article exists because there has to be a better reason to group ethnicities from such different races and cultures into one article than just the fact that they've been called by similar names and both have experienced racism at the hands of whites.  That's why I think it makes far more sense to limit this article to Blackness as defined by African ancestry.  Blackness as defined by color has had much less significance across history.--Kobrakid 21:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with your assesment as I introduced the same idea about a week ago. Seperate the topics into articles and then use a disambiguation page to direct people to the proper information.George 22:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree a disambiguation page may well sort this out! Paki.tv 23:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference is that people who identify with blackness identify with the black skin they share in common, but Asian and American Indians both use the word Indian, but do not identify with each other at all.  It does make sense to have all black people in one article, yet separate the two types of Indians into different articles.--Dark Tichondrias 02:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about?  I actually am a black person and I don't identify at all with dark skinned South Asians.  When I was in school the South Asians hung around with the Chinese kids, not those of African ancestry.  I don't recognize myself at all in South Asians.  I did know one South Asian who tried to pass as African American but he did so to convince women he had rhythm, athleticism, and a large sex organ.  He was constantly asking me what it was like to be black, so clearly South Asians do not experience Blackness the way I do.  Thier personalities are totally different, and it has nothing to do with culture either, because the black people I met in Africa have the same personality as me. I think it's in the DNA. I think South Asians are feeling lost and are identifying with Blacks because we're all that's left.  They're Caucasian but they're not accepted as whites. They're Asian but they're not accepted as Orientals. And they're dark skinned so they assume blacks will accept them as one of our own.  Well in all due respect to South Asians,  your skin may be darker than mine, but whatever blackness you may experience is totally alien to mine.--Editingoprah 03:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I said black Asians and black Africans both identify with "black skin".  I did not say that all black Africans identify as the same people as black Asians.  Your opinion, as a black African, that black Asians are a separate people from black Africans only shows some people choose to put more emphasis on origin and less on common skin color to determine race.  Your opinion that black people should only include black Africans does deserve a place in the article, but the other opinion that black people includes black Asians also deserves a place in the article.  Both views are needed in the article to keep it representing a neutral point of view.--Dark Tichondrias 05:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your point that being black is a social categrory in addition to being a genetic category; indeed if it wasn't a social category, people with only 1/16th African ancestry could not have been considered black in various times and places.  What I question is whether the social category of being Black has any cohesion when the definition is expanded so broadly to include any dark skinned group regardless of African ancestry.  Okay, so African Americans are called black,  East Indians have been called black in Britain, the aeta of South East Asia literally translates to mean black, Australoids are called black by some white Australians,  and even segments of the Irish have been dismissed as black based ontheir Spanish looking appearance.  Do all these different groups really share a common identity of any significance, or are they a bunch of totally different groups who just happen to have been called by the same name for very superficial reasons (just like the Indians of India and the Native American Indians)?  Perhaps you could argue that all the non-white peoples of the world share some degree of mutual identification,  but I'm not sure all the peoples of the world who have ever been called Black share anything deeper.   Do you honestly think the aeta of South East Asia and the Australians aboriginals have a unique connection with African Americans?  Yes they all share black skin, but so what.  The watusi of Africa and the Dutch of Europe both share above average height which is arguabley an even more culturally significant trait that they can both identify with,  but that doesn't mean they should be grouped together.  And many African-Americans have very light skin, yet still have African features and thus will always be stigmatized as Negroid, while dark skinned Dravidians of India have Caucasian features and often suffer much less stigma despite their much darker skin because they don't have the stigma of being from Africa.  I guess my fear is that by defining blackness broadly enough to mean everything to everyone, it will eventually not mean anything to anyone.  All my life being black has meant African ancestry, and that carried a huge amount of cultural baggage because of the history of slavery, all the stereotypes about peoples of African ancestry, the entire mythology of coming from Africa and all that that means.  But defing blackness so broadly that even dark-skinned non-Africans can be included seems kind of empty.  It strips Blackness of all its rich cultural meaning and history and reduces it to nothing more than a superficial one dimensional physical description.--Editingoprah 06:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is meaning in being black which is separate from being African.  If you think expanding black people to include everyone makes the term meaningless, then call yourself a "black African" to distinguish your identity.  People recognize you as a black African even if they have usually called you just a black person.  No, I do not think that the populations of Australians and black Asians I advocate for including in the black people article share the same experiences or necessarily identify as the same people, but some share experiences relative to their black skin. Black Asians usually are visibly distinguishable from black Africans based on their physical features, so I agree people might stigmatize the black African more than the black Asian.  Even if people can distinguish these two types of black people, their blackness remains.  It's skin deep, but readily apparant.  Their label of black, applied by themselves or others, has been documented by Paul B and Zaph, so there does exist a history.  This history is referenced in citations placed by these two users, making the inclusion of these populations good additions based on Wikipedia's policy for verifible content.  On the other hand, white skin is different.  The concept of black people is not the concept of white people.  To answer your analogy about white Asians, white supremacists and a history of legal regulation has restricted the definition of white people more than black people. White Asians are mentioned in the white people article as having been considered honorary-whites at a time for the purposes of privledges.  In my opinion, white Asians are considered closer to white Europeans than other non-white-skinned populations.  Black skin is socially significant and white skin is too. In summary, black skin is socially significant for determining a group of people whereas white skin has been less inclusive and African ancestry is a separate concept from black skin.--Dark Tichondrias 08:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No I wont call myself a black African. You stop calling non-Africans black. Don't tell people of African ancestry they have to specify what type of Black they are,  besides the term black African refers to black people who live in Africa since all black people originate there.  Our right to call ouselves Black is confirmed by the census and dictionaries.  The right of the other groups to call themselves black is nothoing more than anecdotal (i..e people can only cite examples, not official definitions defining those specific groups as Black).  Racists sometimes call Arabs "sand niggers" and that can be referenced so does that mean Arabs are now Black too?  Your obsessing over skin color so why don't you write an article called dark skinned people.  It makes far more sense to just do that than to try to hijack a word that is widely used only for those of African ancestry.--Editingoprah 14:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You sound like you lived in the back of Greenville Mississippi while the rest of the world has been realizing things you can't comprehend. I, and no one with a free thinking mind gives a care what census and dictionaries say at this point. Because those census and dictionaries are wrong. The Census in America has been saying that Black peopel are the only group whose ancestors aren't "original" inhabitents of Africa. They don't use the word "original" to describe our racial group. So quit acting like you need a white paperholder called a census or a dictionary generated by people who fear black unity or what? What black person wrote that dictionary? Have you called the office of management and budget? Did you talk to any of the current administrators involved with the handling of the racial aspect of the census report? No? I have. Do you know that you sound retarded since racial classification in the U.S. and Britain only pertains to citizens in those countries? Do you realize that these people make inconsistencies on the census reports? Here and I quote from  * "As an extreme example of inconsistency in the classification by race over time, a person who was included in the Asian Indian category in 1980 and 1990 census tabulations might have been included in different categories previously: Hindu in 1920-1940, Other race in 1950-1960, and White in 1970." So EO, what you are saying is that if the white census writer makes a mistake, you will honor his mistake as fact until he realizes it? You gotta be kidding me. --Zaphnathpaaneah 03:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: You're the one who wanted to distinguish what type of black you are.  I never tried to deny your blackness, but why do you deny the blackness of other people?  Dictionaries confirm that black people refer to non-African blacks as well as African blacks.  The proposition that labels apply the properties they denote is easily disproved by counter example.  Random insults do not necessarily solidify the accusations they make.  To call an emaciated black man a Dhalsim does not give him the power to breathe fire in a Yoga flame.  Likewise, calling Arabs "sand niggers" does not make them turn into Africans and does not change their skin color.--Dark Tichondrias 01:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dictionary's also confirm tha the Irish are black if you apply their most loose definition which is anyone who is kind of dark or swarthy.  But this article is not about a mere physical description, it's about a social identity, Black with a capital B, not black with a small b, that's why while some dictionaries may say that yes technically any darkish person can be black, most dictionaries emphasize that the term refers ESPECIALLY to those of African ancestry and the census and biomedical textbooks exclude non-Africans from their definitions of blackness.  So no I can't deny that there are non-Africans who have black skin and thus are technically black,  but this article isn't about being literally black or even about being called black, it's about blackness as a global social identity and this has its roots in members of the Negroid race.  This doesn't mean there aren't other races that have dark skin, dark enough that others may have called them black too, but this doesn't mean they belong to the same social category, anymore than Native Americans and the people of India belong to the same category because they looked similar enough to both be called Indians.  Now there are cases like the untouchables of India who specifically said that they identified with African-Americans and decided to use their dark skin to self-identify in the global Black social category so they should be mentioned in the article.  But groups like the aeta who just coincedentally happen to be called black in another language because they just coincedentally happened to also have dark skin are a totally separate type of blackness that shouldn't be mixed with the one I'm describing, any more than American Indians and East Indians should be lumped together.  Same goes for Australian aboriginals.  They are called black only in a descriptive sense that has nothing to do with my black social identity, and the fact that they share dark skin is just a coincedence. They have their own identity and rich history that is completely separate from mine. The only way it makes sense to incorporate all these groups into one social category is if we mention Afrocentric scholars who claim (incorrectly) that they are part of a broader African diasporas and thus are welcoming them into the global Black social identity.  But an article that just lumps all dark skinned people together for no other reason than that someone somewhere has called them black and they've experienced racism is meaningless.--Editingoprah 05:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We've already shown you dictionary defintions of black people vary.  Even if a few dictionaries claim Negroid equals black people, they are wrong because Negroid is different.  Negroid is not the same concept as black people, your argument once again returns to your belief that Negroid is synonymous with black people.--Dark Tichondrias 01:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most dictionaries say blacks are of African origin.  That's not exactly the same as saying they're Negroid, since Negroid is a biological group while Blacks are both a biological group and a social group.  That means it's possible to have only a tiny bit of African ancestry and still qualify in the social group that is Black but not the biological group that equates Blackness with Negroid.  But these non-African groups with dark skin are a totally separate topic.  The fact that you keep bringing them up means you can't comprehend the difference between Blackness as a concept and Blackness as a description.  It's a very subtle difference and perhaps not everyone here is capable of grasping this no matter how many times we explain it.--Kobrakid 00:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The topics you brought up have their own articles and the black people article does not prevent these article from existing.  The black people article does not deny that black Australians, black Asians or black Africans exist as separate entities.  The black people article does not destroy their uniqueness.  "Indian" is a disambigulation article that mentions the Asian and American type.  Even though Asians and indigenous Americans have the word "Indian" in their name, they still keep their uniqueness.--Dark Tichondrias 01:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well this article should just be a disambiguation page too,  because there's no more reason to put all the dark skinned people of the world into one article anymore than there's reason to put the two types of Indians in one article.  The issue of Blackness as defined by African ancestry is so deep and complex and have so many different mainifestations in so many different cultures that that it should be its own article.  Lumping these totally descriptive types of Blackness has absolutely nothing to do with Blackness as an ethnic concept.  The socalled Blackness of Australian aboriginals and the negritos are best described in their own articles.  The overwhelming majority of the world equates Blackness with African ancestry,  so there's no reason to confuse this mainstream understanding with totally unrelated and descriptive uses of the term.--Kobrakid 01:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This shouldn't be a disambiguation page because, while Indian Indians and Native American Indians never identified with the same "Indianness," blackness is a social construct with which multiple groups identify. It's not simply a mislabeling of groups that are in other ways unrelated, but a self-identification with each other, which is what makes it worthy of an article of its own right. Blackness is an ethnic concept only in its social existence. There's no certain genotype or phenotype that defines black people aside from having dark skin, and, to a lesser degree, curly hair. Given that Australian aboriginals and negritos are black-skinned and identify with blackness, they should be described in this article, though obviously the central focus should continue to be black Africans. Note that all of the sub-groups you described already have their own articles (see Africa or Sub-Saharan Africa, Indigenous Australians, Negritos, and the subset Aeta, etc.). Also keep in mind that any member of homo sapiens sapiens (or homo sapiens idaltu) has 100% African ancestry, and we cannot pick a random date as the cut-off for recent African ancestry. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 03:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be a disambiguation page because Blackness describes two totally different social constructs.  The primary construct is African ancestry.  The second one is just dark skin. The two types of Blackness have totally different meanings.  Black as defined as African ancestry carries a much deeper and complex history and evokes all kinds of stereotypes, attitudes, and images, that other dark skinned people can in no way identify with.  In addition to that, there are tons of people with some degree of African ancestry who are very light skinned so there self-identification as Black has nothing in common with the Negritos.  There should be a separate article on dark skinned people, and leave this one for peoples of African ancestry.  And of course everyone comes from Africa originally,  but those that left Africa in the original maigration(s) some 70,000 years ago transformed into other races.  Only people who are Negroid or part Negroid have recent African ancestry.--Editingoprah 15:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The source of this statement is given in the first part of the sentence i.e. "in my opinion".  I do not call this opinion a fact or claim it has a verifiable basis.  The basis of this opinion is that White Aryan Resistance and some people who are involved in race and intelligence theories consider white Asians to be smarter than other populations.  Admittedly, favorable evaluation does not equate to racial similarity.  Without any verifiable citations, it should not have been in the argument I made above.--Dark Tichondrias 10:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree that we need to increase our understanding dimensionally - that includes spacial, temporal and semantic dimensions. To return to your original comparison, there are different reasons why an Indian people article does not exist and a Black people one does, with regards to the semantic dimensions that go across spacial and temporal dimensions. For one, India is a nation and there is no 'Black nation' - although I have read racist fantacies of a 'white nation'. In what is called 'britain' there is a group called Ligali.org that is against useage of the word black and prefers African (and Asian etc) but i think this is also too simlistic. Also, Indians are sometimes refered to as 'Red' rather than black, while in what is known as 'india', there is a long history of racist persecution of untouchables and dalits which is also based on shade and complexion of skin colour. This is a very complex issue and there are no easy answers - as mentioned above, and I agree, this is to do with what I personally perceive as a holocaust happening right now that is claiming around a million lives every few weeks, world wide - mostly in Africa. I also, personally see the need for a black power movement - but not one based on nationalism or even continentalism. I also see this issue as related to European science ideas of light and dark energy - and the racial superiority of Europeans as a justification for colonialism and mass murder. Lets cool down and work thru it. We can do it. Paki.tv 22:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Ethiopians have sometimes referred to themselves as "red" since ancient times as well, yet they are also socially "black," and identify with blackness as well. The article isn't saying that all or even most Indians identify as black, just a enough dalits that it is significant to the matter at hand. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 03:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The Indian is free to call himself dark-skinned.  But he looks foolish if he calls himself Black because to most people Black means African ancestry.--Editingoprah 15:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The problem with this article

message: Either the person who wrote that portion knows nothing about Spain or Portugal (i do since i was born and live in them) - and thus should not have written that document - or it's outwrite lying.
There most definitely is the expression "Black".
There are MANY words for black and other labelings by colour, but the for most main ones, for instance, in Portuguese:
.Preto - Black
.Negro - Dark
.Mulato - Mulato (half white/african, usually slave descendent)
.Mestiço - ? (half white/amerindian, may have some black descendency too mixed while maintaining title)
The idea that the world "Black" in Iberian languages doesn't exist is patently FALSE and should be removed from the article for it's a mindboggling error an encyclopaedia can't have and maintain it's credibility at the same time.
Most of the above referenced words also apply to Spanish, with a few differences only, i.e. - Mestiço in Portuguese, Mestizo in Spanish.
I find it sad that something withou knowledge wrote that in, or worse, that someone with a poltical agenda decided erasing Iberian culture was a-ok to advance it's interests. Sad. 85.138.0.158 00:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article says almost nothing about "Iberian culture" nor does it suggest that the concept of "blackness" does not exist in Iberia - that would be very odd indeed! The point of the section is to discuss Latin America (i.e. former Iberian colonies), and it argues that there is no "endogamous color line" (in other words there is no sense of separate "black" and "white" communities who rarely inter-marry). It then discusses the variety of terms used for differrent tonalities and ancestries and concludes that there is no equivalent to the US usage of "black". All of the terms you list are already there. Of course there is no suggestion that there is no word for black, just that the term is not used as a racial label in the same way that it is in English. Now, I can't vouch for the accuracy of this, and the section is entirely unreferenced, so there are potentially problems with it, but it does not say what you claim it says. If there are specific inaccuracies please point them out. Paul B 01:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black in Iberian countries - What is on the article is a complete lie 

message: Afrocentricists on the left. Eurocentricists on the right. Afrophobics in the center. Everybody is trying to avoid being black these days. White lies selling out fast and everything black must go. I suppose Wikipedia will keep the article locked forever, because the day that lock is removed is the day I restore this article. If I don't, by the time you "centrists" get done, there won't be any black people left, except those who are just from West Africa. Trust me I will be putting an end to that ignorance. --Zaphnathpaaneah 02:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  OH God please unlock this article 

message: Special package called facts from The US Census to EditingOprah: 
* "As an extreme example of inconsistency in the classification by race over time, a person who was included in the Asian Indian category in 1980 and 1990 census tabulations might have been included in different categories previously: Hindu in 1920-1940, Other race in 1950-1960, and White in 1970."
This quote taken from http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0056.html... scroll down to the citation and notes near the bottom. Oh I've got more. But this should make you realize that 1. The Census writers are not god. 2. Especially in regards to the East Indian people, American census writers are not able to come to a unified consensus, as they changed the East Indians racial category every 10 to 20 years (they are due for another upgrade this census coming up). The East Indian Census does not designate people by "black, white, etc" races. http://www.censusindia.net You can't apply American, and INCONSISTENT American interpretations to world populations. You have been refuted and the ONLY reason you are still here, and the only reason Wikipedia tolerates you is because some white guys higher up do not want black people to become more empowered and more unified. No one up there wants to see black people and indian people working together as one people. They fear it, and who better to do their dirty work for them than someone like you. So rest assured you have the Wikipedia Eurocentricists on your side, no matter how badly you want to provoke that I am on some anti-black-american agenda. --Zaphnathpaaneah 03:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zaph, Zaph, Zaph.  If the East Indians so identify with being Black, how come they begged the census to classify them as Asian?  They prefered to self-identify by geographic origin, and not skin color.  And unlike you,  I've actually been to India with a huge group of Negroids and my experience was that East Indains HATE black people with a passion.  We could not even get service in any restaraunts.  Even restauants owned by the darkest skinned Inians (those with pitch black skin ten times darker than mine) told us "no blacks allowed".  Some of us actually live in the real world and as much as you fantacize about being accepted by the Indians (since apparantly sub-Saharans aren't good enough for you) your dreams of a bortherhood between all dark skinned people is the world's biggest joke.  I bet Indian people are reading your crap and laughing at you. LOL! You don't even know how naive you are.  Try reading up about India-African relations in South Africa and the riots between those groups and the huge political differences.--Editingoprah 16:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is special delivery for you EditingOprah 

message: :The state governments in India classify people by race  link to Government of Assam--Dark Tichondrias 06:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but their categories are bound up with the caste system and concepts such as scheduled tribes. It incorporates some western models of physical anthropology, but can't neatly be mapped onto "black"/"white" oppositions. Paul B 10:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Firts of all the statements above are fringe and they don't at all get to the heart of being Black.  Yes it serves a political purpose to lump all dark-skinned people together,  but he could have just as easily said "non-white people of the world" inviting Orientals and Arabs into the club (they too have experienced racism) and the statements would have had the same meaning.  Your conception of Blackness is absurdly inclusive (anyone dark enough to experience racism).  I think it's far more interesting to write an article about Blackness as defined by African ancestry because all over the world there's a huge cultural difference between being a black skinned person and being a black skinned person from Africa.  If you don't understand that,  then you've missed the whole Black experience and are not qualified to be editing--Editingoprah 21:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: India

message: I certainly understand there is a nuance regarding the difference between blackness as a social concept and as an ethnic identity. But this page is not about the "ethnic identity", why? Because the "ethnic identity" is "Afro-" in orientation. That's the "ethnicity". Afro-American is an Ethnic identity. African-American is an ethnic identity. Being Black is not something that should be distinguished to such a degree by region (at least not in this article). For most of us who are black in here know this: You can find Australian (and I personally know a few) aboriginal who could interact in America, and socialize as a black American. IN no way would their "ethnicity" seperate them from other black people in America. That nuance would become highly irrelevant, and the only way that Aboriginal, in the U.S. would seperate himself is by his or her adherence to Aussie/British cultural nuances and norms. You would not find an aboriginal trying to distance himself from a black american by virtue of his Aborignal heritage, it doesn't make any sense and you know it. I have talked to aboriginals who are black. They don't understand or conceive the concept of "not really being black". Certainly as black people we can all still see and respect each other's diversity within our black identity, however we do not play "one upsmanship" by competing or comparing blackness. That reminds me of those white supremacist teenagers who would get into fights over whose skin is the lightest and who has the most german ancestry. We as black people don't think like that. The ethnicities of blackness are plural, not singular. Each african group out of the hundreds or so are distinct identities. You respect each one, because they are very diverse. So too is it with those outside the continent who, for all intensive purposes are as black as anyone within the continent. And by the way, considering the Ethiopians. Many have emigrated to Israel as Jews... I suppose they are no longer black either? We in the UNited States are no longer in Africa, yet we are still black. Go figure! The Afro-Canadians, and Afro-Russians that escaped slavery... with that same attitude we regard them as just "slightly" less black. That's just the carry over of white supremacy in our minds. SPit it out, stop holding on to that self-centered notion. 
 read and get it through your head. Since it is through slavery that the social concept of being black has engrained itself in the consciousness of black Americans, the REASON we struggled. The same is for these people in Asia and India. The physical location of their continent does not diminish the significance of this. No white or "non-black" asian, nor american is going to consciously embrace this legacy as their own while still calling themselves "white" or "not-black". That's been my biggest point. Man forget it, this is too deep for some people. All this is doing is just creating more 'confusion' right?? --Zaphnathpaaneah 15:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zaph go to India and you'll see how black they are when even the untouchables say "no blacks allowed" when you try to enter their restaraunts. You're really humiliating yourself the way you're begging non-Africans to be Black when they want nothing to do with us.  Take some pride in your own people for a change.  Is there nothing sub-Saharan people have done that you can be proud of?  Stop worshipping ancient Indian civilation and learn to take pride in your sub-Saharan ancestors.  Your attitude is so insulting to them.--Editingoprah 17:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Please don't cite nutjobs like Clyde Winters, Zaph. I've had a discussion with him personally, and he doesn't know what he's talking about most of the time. Even after a lengthy discussion, he wouldn't give up his claim that Sanskrit is derived from the Ge'ez alphabet. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 05:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Fine, look here, where he claims that the Ethiopians were the Naga of India and ruled India and created Sanskrit, among other confused ramblings (including rejecting the viability of Afro-Asiatic and instead proposing an "African" language family including Nilo-Saharan, Cushitic, Niger-Congo, etc.). Of course, this is irrelevant to the use of the term "Black" for people, but it shows how unreliable he is as a source. Explain to me again why I sound like a fool? Why are you citing examples of Africans rejecting the label black? Aren't you, as I am, for the more inclusive definition in the article? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 05:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Australia

message: Since the page is protected, I can't add the citation I would like to the assertion Australian society labels Indigenous Australians as Black.  I think that is an inappropriate generalisation.  Australian society lables Indigenous Australians as "Indigenous Australians", "Aboriginals or "Torres Strait Islanders"  Black is informal, deprecated by non-indigenous Australians and gets into issues about history wars, saying sorry, all sorts of things.  What is meant in this context by "Australian society"?  The assertion is simplistic and really wrong.  I note above a citation to inourownright.e-contentmanagement.com - that isn't an "Australian society" label.  There is also citation to the National Library of Australia and an article White Australia has a Black History': Sources for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies in the National Library of Australia - that punning article title refers to Indigenous Australians throughout the article and is about "Its neat ambiguity summed up two important issues central to any understanding of this country. In the first place, it was an affirmation by indigenous Australians that their long history in this country had primacy, legitimacy and a rich and positive integrity of its own. Secondly, it was an accusation, a reminder to those celebrating a mere two hundred years of European settlement, that this celebration was based on a false premise. The slogan was a reminder to the country that a dark pall of shame lay over the history of European settlement in Australia and that until this was recognised and acknowledged the prospects for reconciliation were bleak."  For the wiki articles on this see among others History wars; Black armband view of history; Black War - the use of Black in this way is not labelling Indigenous Australians as "Black", not these days.  Perhaps the most conclusive evidence I can offer that this assertion is inappropriate is to suggest a search of the article on Indigenous Australians  for the word "black".  This article is the main article on the people and extensively edited and quite lengthy with a number of subidiary articles.  You will find "black" twice: Dr Lang said "There is black blood at this moment on the hands of individuals of good repute in the colony of New South Wales of which all the waters of New Holland would be insufficient to wash out the indelible stains." and In the resulting historic and controversial Gove land rights case, Justice Blackburn ruled that ...  I think this is a clear indication that "black" is not used in formal Australian society today to refer to Indigenous Australians.  That it may be used in informal language is a different thing and the assertion needs to be qualified as such and offer up some citations giving context.--Arktos talk 09:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problematic Australian assertion 

message: If you've ever met any one from Puapa New Guinea, Solomon Island, fiji and other Pacific Island Nations, most of those people concider themselves Black. Many resemble black Africans. In addition to their dark skin, most have black, woolly hair. Some Melanesians, called Negritos, are like the Pygmies  
unknown 21:01, 17 August 2006
And that is all I have been trying to say. In addition they suffered exploitation and colonialism from the German and Australian regimes,  and discrimation from the japanese, Malay and the "Upper" Papua administrative territories. [], but some idiot in here wants to say they aren't "really" black because their DNA is not directly African.  --Zaphnathpaaneah 05:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What does having dark skin and suffering exploitation have to do with descending from Africa? Melanesians are NOT part of the African diaspora, Europeans are more closely related to Africans than Melanesians are. 86.141.217.187 00:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You must be illiterate or you are pretending to be illiterate. --Ezeu 01:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What about the Melanesians

message: DeeCeeVoice and EditingOprah, great job. I want to commend you for your ignorance and your commitment to causing discord. Without you I would have not decided to leave this Eurocentricipedia. I would like to award you the African Dictator Award if they had one, so instead I offer you a Mugabe for your self-centered viewpoints on blackness and on all and all general self-destructive behavior. Great JOB! See yall in a few months. --Zaphnathpaaneah 07:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Have fun, the American "thug" mentality won the battle 

message: More random vandalism- ctrl-F search it. I'd fix it myself if it wern't locked. 82.69.37.32 12:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed it. --Ezeu 17:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Platypus?

message: Please, can't we all just get along? The Real Rodney King 05:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plea