Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/MUSTARD/Archive 2

message: Is there any sort of standard for awards sections? Lara♥Love 16:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So I'm taking that as a "no". Lara♥Love 17:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. So if there is no standard, can we create one now? Lara♥Love 05:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I like the format of the tables at Beyoncé awards and nominations#Music ... Still, I would support the idea of flexibility in how an awards section is presented, since there is such a range of needs, depending on numbers of awards, wins versus nominations, varying notability of awards, and likely other factors. As things stand, some are included in the musician's main article, but some are ferried out to a separate list. Some are listed by year (List of Whitney Houston awards), some alphabetically (List of 50 Cent awards and nominations), some by category of award, and then each with various subdivisions. Some are simply summarized rather than listed (Gordon Lightfoot#Honours). What ideas did you have for a standard? --Paul Erik 05:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

text: "It's an honour just to be nominated." It does seem to be common practice around here to include nominations, although admittedly I am partial to your decision to remove nominations for MTV Video Awards. In general, though, I do not see it as unreasonable to see an award nomination as an achievement in and of itself, and thus worthy of inclusion. --Paul Erik 11:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maroon 5, for example, has no less than 25 nominations for everything from the Grammy Awards to  Teen Choice. And with that in mind, is there any standard to what awards should be included? Notability issues and such. And in what order? It all just seems haphazzard. I feel like I should include the Grammy noms, but it seems wrong to include only those when all wins are included. I think there should be a consistency one way or the other. I just don't know what would be most encyclopedic. Lara♥Love 14:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have not forgotten about this discussion, just waiting to see if others have any strong preferences about this. It would be useful to have a list of music awards that are regularly reported in secondary sources, with external links to searchable databases, similar to what Reaper X set up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Certifications. As to the order, if it is a long list I prefer to see them listed alphabetically by award and then subsectioned by year—for example, I like List of 50 Cent awards and nominations better than List of Whitney Houston awards. If it is a short list, I think it might be fine to have it worked out at the individual article level. And should we include just wins? I have the same feeling that you do about including Grammy nominations and also that it seems wrong then not to include others (but I do tend to be perhaps a little too much of a fan of inclusiveness). When a list gets excessive, then it ought to be moved to a separate list page, which might be an option with the Maroon 5 list if nominations were included. Either way, I think editors should be encouraged to summarize the most notable achievements within the article body, but it is difficult to be specific about that guidance. Oh, one more thing: I think note should be made that there is too much boldfacing going on in these lists. Just a few thoughts, --Paul Erik 02:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Awards

message: What is the correct formatting for the titles of music videos (as in videos for songs). "Quotes" or Italics? Bit unsure because songs are in quotes but films are in italics. I think the answer to this question should be added to the guidelines. - kollision 12:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to think it should be more like songs, since it usually is effectively just the name of the song.  (In fact, how many videos actually have proper titles, as opposed to simply being referred to as 'the video for "song X"'?)  But since this page just reflects what the Manual of Style says, it might be more productive to ask on the relevant Manual of Style page.  Xtifr tälk 01:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Music videos

message: I came here looking for guidance on how to band membership listings should be handled. In particular, if a band is no longer active and had membership changes throughout its existence, should all musicians be listed as "Members" or "Former members"? Should the final lineup of the band be "Members" and previous lineups be "Former members"? Clconway 15:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The standard is to list everyone as "Former members", as has been done in featured articles The Supremes and The KLF for example. --Paul Erik 04:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I infer from these that the infobox should not include data ranges of membership and that members' joining and quitting should be handled in the text? Don't you think this is worth formalizing in the guidelines? Clconway 13:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It already is. Template:Infobox musical artist#Fields says "with no other notation than names". --PEJL 14:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. But Template:Infobox musical artist is not linked from this article. And using/not using the infobox is not addressed! Clconway 15:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this page (WP:MUSTARD) is intended to be about music articles in general, not musician articles specifically, that's what WP:MUSICIAN is for, and the latter does link to Template:Infobox musical artist. --PEJL 12:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But there's no link to WP:MUSICIAN either! I'm only pointing this out as somebody who, in good faith, wanted to help clean up a band article and utterly failed to find the guidelines I was looking for... Clconway 12:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, and there is no link to WP:ALBUM, WP:SONG, WP:CHART and so on. I find that acceptable as most users won't come directly to this page when looking for guidelines for one of those articles. That said, I think many of these guidelines could use some work. --PEJL 13:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Standards for crediting band members 

message: If a solo artist is also part of a group/band, is it necessary to put group recordings made by that solo artist in the discography? For example, Ice Cube is a member of the rap groups N.W.A. and Westside Connection. In Ice Cube discography, is it necessary to list his collaborations with those groups? Perhaps it's better to just restrict the recordings to his solo stuff? Afterall, there's seperate pages for NWA and Westside Connection discographies. Most discographies I see list all collaboration albums by solo artists despite there being seperate pages for them. Spellcast 13:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I vote for separation.  There was much discussion about this many months back, as Beyonce, Kelly Rowland, LeToya Luckett, etc. had Destiny's Child stuff in the solo discography pages, which is really redundant.  I certainly wouldn't attempt to duplicate the Beatles discography into, say, Paul McCartney's discography page - seems kinda silly. - eo 13:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Beyonce, LeToya etc. discographies don't mention the albums made by Destiny's Child. It ruins the point of having Destiny's Child discography. Ideally, discographies should mention collaborations in the intro (see Gwen Stefani discography for example) or if necessary, a "see also" section. There should be a standard for this. What was the consensus like months back? Half wanting removal, other half wanting info merged? Spellcast 13:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The DC stuff is not included in Beyonce, etc. pages because several editors (including myself) said it was redundant and unnecessary.  There was a bit of a revolt, but only by the rabid DC fans who insisted it should ALL be there.  A wikilink to the DC discography is in each of the individual's pages, which seems much more reasonable. - eo 13:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless there's a legitimate reason why collabos should be included, something along these lines should be added to the standard: "If a solo artist is also part of an ensemble, it is recommended that the group work be kept in a separate discography page". The wording could use some improvement, but hey it's a start. Spellcast 14:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually never mind. There's usually no resistance when I remove group work. But what about solo templates in the external links such as Destiny's Child#External links? Spellcast 13:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I think there should be a discography and navigation box official guidelines.--Tasc0 01:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Discographies