Talk:Midnight Syndicate/Archive 3

message: A good part of the dispute here seems to focus on the role of Joseph Vargo.  Based on the information I see in some versions he looks notable enough for his own Wikipedia page.  So how about this compromise: 
*Start a biography for Vargo.
*Make the Midnight Syndicate bigger and include more sections so that readers can reference both the current lineup and the group's history.
*Use line citations!
Take a look at some of Wikipedia's featured music articles.  Sex Pistols, Genesis (band), Marilyn Manson (band), Nirvana (band) - that's what you should be striving for.  I'm going to be blunt here, so forgive me if this offends, but neither disputed version of this article is much good.  If band members really edit this page then how about uploading some album covers and audio samples?  Quote published reviews instead of liner notes.  If former band members (or friends of former band members) edit here, then get out the scrapbook and cite some historical stuff.  Some of you probably own rare archival material such as photographs from performances and early promotional flyers.  Digitize and upload!  The dispute at this page makes very little sense to me - it's like squabbling over crumbs while the loaf turns to mold on the table.  I don't much care whether this band was better four years ago, but I'd be more likely to read it and maybe buy some releases if it made the good article list.  Heck, I'm pretty sure I've listened to a lot of Midnight Syndicate while I was gaming.  Go make this article better. Durova 03:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that proposal was already made but using Panic! at the Disco as reference. I agree that the others you mention are way better. I think it would be a fine idea for this article. Ororboros gave a very good summary of how best to organize the page and even started sections as you reference in the MM and other articles. But it would likely cause even more disruption at this point. Can you honestly see Skinny and friends not reverting the "controversial" section on an hourly basis? And to add an article on Vargo would mean we would have two entries to squabble over until this settles down. Looking back at last year it appears a Vargo article was removed because it was attacked. I think that if the band (or friends) would compromise and actually give credit for work performed--and not just to their friends--and not word things in such a way as to minimize other work or present a slanted version of history, the article could be cleaned up. Then we could look at making it great. The other option, as stated earlier is just to remove all the bloated statements (even MM doesn't have such puffy-chested boasts and his albums went Platinum). Just list the members roles (composer, engineer, producer, etc) and be done with. I would like to see the other credits listed here for film--the two horror films mentioned above are work they did and should be credited for, just as the games are credited--and they did not write scores for those games.  And tone down what the band has posted for future projects. (ie: Warner-bros "based" means that SnapKick rents a stage on the WB lot, not that WB is producing or releasing). That is a marketing ploy and quite obviously misleading. On the other hand, the band actually did have cds being sold for several years in displays that said "official soundtracks for Halloween Horror Nights." Why Skinny said that wasn't true is beyond me. That fact was here for a long time. I see many instances of self-promotion that have been disallowed in other articles, yet for some reason are allowed to continue here. I would be interested to see what you, Durova, would edit in/out of this article yourself. Would you be willing to take some time and do some edits to open the door and show us how you would treat this fairly? As for photos, I don't have a clue about how to upload but I'll read about it. Would we be trampling on copyrights or need permission from the band? Thanks for taking time to suggest this.GuardianZ 14:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: You know, until I read this most recent post by GuardianZ, I was feeling pretty good about our progress.  I have been working diligently since last night on a revised article.  I have been very careful to try to come up with a version we can both agree on.  Based on what you've just posted, I don't even know if that's possible.  To say I'm disheartened would be an understatement. But I will forge ahead and get something up today.   - Skinny McGee 16:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd have a couple of problems trying to edit here.  First is that I'm an administrator and my volunteer hours are spread pretty thin.  Second, with my peculiar knowledge of music I could probably contribute more to Josquin Des Prez and Cannonball Adderley than to this article.  I can make a few comments, though.  Articles don't get deleted because of vandalism - and in the rare case where that might happen the article ought to be recreated.  I thought one of the main bones of contention was a disagreement over how much space this page ought to devote to someone who's no longer in the group.  If that's the problem then a summary here that links to a bio article ought to solve the problem.  On another matter, discussion boards aren't suitable for citation at Wikipedia.  Per WP:NOR Wikipedia really can't do investigative reporting.  This article might present contradictory evidence in a neutral manner, but unless some music journalist has published a study of Midnight Syndicate's history then this article can't attempt to draw conclusions.  Most of all, what the editors here ought to do to make their positions robust is to use line citations.  Article text that's unreferenced is much more open to challenge than article text that quotes or paraphrases a reliable source.  Best wishes, Durova 02:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A modest proposal 

message: So, I've made some changes, but not too many.  I thought we were pretty close to a starting point yesterday, so I didn't mess with the content too much.  I figured we could get something to agree on and go from there.  I added the box and a few CD covers to spice it up a bit.  I did my best to take all recent comments into account in deciding what to keep and what to discard. - Skinny McGee 16:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I’m curious how you could possible object to that.  Many, many sources indicate that Edward Douglas contacted every distributor he could think of and no one was interested.  Douglas then started making cold calls and built his own distribution network.  I certainly think it’s valid to include that the CDs that have become so successful in the $4.2 billion Halloween retail industry are self-distributed.  I know Joseph Vargo doesn’t like to hear it, but Midnight Syndicate and Entity Productions, Inc. are highly respected in the industry.  Finally, Monolith Graphics was never the label.  - Skinny McGee 19:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Look

message: Per Durova's suggestion to use line citations, I have do this in support of my statements and other statements made previously in this article. For some reason they keep getting removed and the article is being reverted. I don't believe that anyone doing the reverts is actually checking the footnotes. It was brought up by Skinny who keeps removing the notes, that the content promotes Vargo, yet they are the same references used previously. Plus, Vargo was in th band at the time. So, why should he not be mentioned? Many items have just been footnoted to support specific statements, and most are about albums, not people, and one quotes Douglas, not Vargo. Also, the mention of album kudos such as which album  "established MS's sound" does not mention Vargo. It simply states what Douglas had stated earlier. I don't know why Skinny has a problem with this. Frankly, I don't know why he has a problem with the previous statement that all the songs on the 2nd and 3rd albums take their names from Vargo paintings. That's an interesting bit of fact that has been stated in several earlier interviews. Goszka states that he used Vargo's artwork as reference when writing some of the music. That information does not harm this article, it does not detract from any of the work that Douglas and Goszka have done, and it's interesting and shows what influence that member had on the rest of the group. I think Skinny is just really biased against Vargo. I have tried to also footnote newer items (such as Skinny's claim that Douglas started his oun "distribution network in 1999" but can find no reliable sources... most are contradicted by older sources, and that one in particular is very highly contested by Vargo's website and also doesn't jive with the other company credits on the Born of the Night cd packaging. As for the rundown of re-released music on the Out of the Darkness cd, I had a hell of a time figuring that out. I think it's very important to make it clear that there is only one track from 1994 (though it is listed in the copyrights as 1996). I am assuming that it was written in 1994 otherwise why would the band put 1994 in the title. In any case, it's really interesting how many times other songs were re-released. Some appear 3 or 4 times depending on the release format. One other bit of info bugs me, but I left it for now... the first paragraph states that Douglas founded MS in 1996, but in all of the other sources, it states 1997. One source states 1991 as a time when Douglas met the guys in the first line-up, but that is contradicted later by several other sources. I suppose one could argue that he "founded" something a year earlier than when they became active as a musical group. Anyway, it's a bit questionable. Skinny, I really do suggest you back up your statements with footnotes. I'm not crazy about it, but I think this article needs it. Like, I said though, you need to make sure your references aren't contradicted by other references. That is why I adhered to only the earlier sources, as I believe that those were at least created with some degree of fairness before the band members were at odds with one another. GuardianZ 17:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have been removing your footnotes because I find them completely unnecessary.  The footnoting is so sporadic that it’s very distracting (e.g., footnoting Cedar Point, but not Busch Gardens or Thorpe Park).  And anyway, the article as it currently reads is just so innocuous that we don’t need them.  You’re still promoting Joseph Vargo with everything you do and you are trying to nit-pick this article to pieces and discredit Midnight Syndicate in the process.  I will do what I can to keep that from happening.  That includes deleting any reference to defamatory sites run by Joseph Vargo.  I’ve left the link to the Dark Realms Magazine interview in, even though it’s Joseph Vargo’s magazine and thus it is of questionable neutrality in terms of this article.  - Skinny McGee 19:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, it's been busy around here. But it's like taking one step forward and two back. I like the new look and have added a few citations of my own. Skinny is wrong on the label info. It plainly shows Monolith Graphics on the Born of the Night cd, and that was a title applied to Vargo's product line from 1992 to present. I have one of his 1992 calendars called Born of the Night and his company has published one every year since. Check Amazon.com if anything else. Skinny, why can't you just admit the truth? It would really be much better to admit to the truth than to keep trying to make things up or bury the facts with obscuration and deceptive editing. You're just making it look even worse for this band. PS. off-topic Panic! at the Disco was on Letterman last night. I wonder how their lawsuit is going? Oroboros 1 07:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What 'ref to Akron Journal'?  I have no idea what you're talking about. - Skinny McGee 23:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I guess I was just confused because the fact that Ed Douglas quit his other job in 2001 and started doing Midnight Syndicate full time has nothing to do with the distribution. I enjoy the fact that you are quoting the article out of order and thus changing the meaning to suit your own purpose.  After discussing how the success of Born of the Night was overwhelming, the article goes immediately to say "Nevertheless, its creators couldn't convince record labels or distributors of this fresh genres economic potential.... Goszka and Douglas decided to build their own distribution network."  Then it talks about how Douglas made cold calls across the country and then it states "It was a part-time venture for both men."  To summarize, while working part time at another job, Douglas built a national distribution network for Midnight Syndicate's CDs. - Skinny McGee 23:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

text: That's what you said when you quoted the article.  "Douglas went full time in 2001" - implying that he must have quit some other job.  I think you're trying to deflect attention from the real issue:  You rearraged the reference to suit your needs.  If you feel you can use the article as a reference, then I don't understand why I should have to provide outside evidence when correcting your misstatements.
Nooooo. I only paraphrased the article and placed the part that you wroye into consecutive order. YOU, Skinny, are the one who likes to reconstruct things to be misleading (just like Edward is). I am only editing them to be clearer and not deceptive. Oroboros 1 18:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

text: On another note, while I've suspected it for quite some time, I'm pleased to finally have proof that you (Oroboros_1) and Guardianz are the same person.  You have just completed two edits here under the same IP address that GuardianZ used to revert the article on November 11th.  If you smell a rat, as you state in your edit summary, I think it's probably you.  You have no intention of elevating this Wikipedia article.  Every edit you have made serves either to promote Joseph Vargo or to discredit or diminish Midnight Syndicate's accomplishments.  This is remarkably similar to the tactic Joseph Vargo himself has used on the sites you reference.  That's obvious to anyone who reviews your edit history. - Skinny McGee 01:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

text: You're wrong on every account, so I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you anymore.  I'm not Edward Douglas, but I'm flattered that you think I am since I'm a huge fan of his music. - Skinny McGee 15:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Line Citations