Talk:Self-organization/Archive 1

message: Is there any justification for the division between "older" and "newer" technical books? If a single list was sorted chronologically, the reader of the article could decide for him/herself. On growth and form is a timeless classic, and the book by Eigen and Schuster is to a large extent still current because 30 year is not a long time for a revolutionary contribution. -- Miguel
:The division was somewhat taken from the source I used.  Feel free to merge them and sort alphabetically.  Nice work on the article, by the way!  It's looking pretty substantial now. -- Lexor 21:00, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old vs. new books 

message: I rewrote stub from scratch as the existing paragraph was take wholesale from the external link cited.  
To the original submitter: please don't copy text from external sites without having obtained permission to release under the GFDL, see Wikipedia:Copyrights. -- Lexor 09:19, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright issues 

message: Does anyone else see a wikiwiki as an example of a self-organising system? I gues it would make a great example on this page. --Anthony Liekens 22:30, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikis may not be Self-organizing systems, but Wikipeida is one! I think that using Wikipedia as an example of self-organising organisation could make a very good example for this page.--GarOgar--
I think the concept of wiki (software + contents + participating humans) is a self-organising system, because it increases its complexity and internal order without external intervention (the system is considered as a whole). Still, can you find any emergent property? Ste nohype 16:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikis as an example of self-organisation 

message: Might the word conflated be out of place in this article?  There is a Wiktionary entry for it, but nevertheless my more conservative nature must wonder if perhaps its usage here, at least without reference to  definition, might not overstep a bit.
Could a better word be chosen?
Could the word be a link to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Conflation ?  
Could there be one of those odd little parenthetical numbers with a question mark or whatever it is after the word that off-site-links to the definition on wikitionary?
And why the fuck is Wiktionary missing so many words.  Seems like that's the kind of fundraiser that would be easy to accomplish.  
A Prominent announcement somewhere on Wikipedia that Some Month/Week will be "Fill in the Holes Week" on Wiktionary, or some such.  Post a "Missing Word List" and just get 'er done.  Or at least get her leaped forward.
Anyhoo,, I'd humbly suggest that conflated, while clearly defendable, is a bit too masturbatory for this article. 
-:)Ozzyslovechild 03:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflated? 

message: :Sometimes the notion of self-organization is conflated with that of the related concept of emergence. Properly defined, however, there may be instances of self-organization without emergence and emergence without self-organization, and it is clear from the literature that the phenomena are not the same. The link between emergence and self-organization remains an active research question.
Could someone please provide either an example of instances of self-organization without emergence and emergence without self-organization or a specific citation to literature that the phenomena are not the same?
The Self-Organizing Systems FAQ for Usenet newsgroup comp.theory.self-org-sys makes no mention of such a distinction. -- Nick 15:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, Tom, but I think the second point about self-organization without emergence is nonsense.  How can it be "self-" organized if each component is given a map telling it what to do?  That's instruction, not self-organization. WebDrake 15:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not instruction because the map is just information each component can use to still autonomously achieve the required behaviour. It is not a control plan that states the full sequence of actions for each component. It jus states what all the components as a whole have to achieve, a global goal. As such the system is still "self-" organized because there is no external control at runtime but there is no emergence because each component is aware of the required global end result. --Tomdw 15:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, I'll buy that.  I think it's an interesting distinction and I'm not surprised that it's engineers, rather than, say, physicists or mathematicians, who came up with it.  Still, while these ideas should certainly be discussed, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of putting them across in a way that suggests they are widely accepted.  Definitions of "self-organization" and "emergence" are still too vaguely agreed on for that. WebDrake 10:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is true that there is no widely accepted definition for both concepts and maybe there never will be. However, this distinction is certainly useful and becomes more accepted from an engineering point of view. I of course cannot speak for physicists or others. --Tomdw 14:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples of self-organization without emergence and vice versa 

message: In case anyone watching Self-organization has missed it, note that after Kku's clever separation of Self-organized criticality into its own article, WebDrake has rewritten and dramatically expanded that page into a very good description of SOC.  He's also made some stub examples of SOC which people might like to contribute to, and he's thinking of doing further work on Power law and Self-organization itself over the next month or two.  It's worth having a look at the other pages involved. Maybe people have thoughts on possible further improvements.  -- JimR 06:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-organized criticality and related pages 

message: I've added to and re-ordered the categories of this page.  The logic is as follows:
*Cybernetics, though historically important, isn't thought of much in terms of modern concepts of self-org, so I sent it to the back of the list.
*Dynamical systems and systems theory come first, though I think maybe the latter should be relegated to the back along with cybernetics, since it seems more historical than present.
*Then applied & interdisciplinary physics, stat mech and supramolecular chemistry.
All good? — WebDrake 19:52, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Drake. I created :Category:Self-organization, because there quite a few pages that can fit in there, I think. Karol 07:53, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: A good part of the article, particularly as regards definition of self-organization, distinction from emergence, etc., seems to be taken pretty directly from the Cozma Shalizi notebooks.
I don't object to CS's ideas on their own terms but I think his notebooks are a personal viewpoint and do not represent a broad enough view of what "self-organization" has come to mean in different parts of the scientific community.  For example as CS himself notes, the concept of "self-organization" used in self-organized criticality is different.
First, I think it is not clear that self-organization exclusively refers to systems where there is a non-directed increase in order or complexity.  Talk of the "organization" of a system need not necessarily refer to the degree of order present but simply how it is arranged: e.g. "the molecular organization is completely random".  CS's PhD thesis suggests that the laws of thermodynamics are an emergent phenomenon of molecular interaction but that it is not self-organizing.  In the instinctive sense of "self-organization", as opposed to CS's definition, this is bizarre.  If the behaviour of the molecules, and the collective result, is not self-organized, what on earth is it?  It is not being directed by any outside entity, so it must be arranging (=organizing) itself.  Even if we were to throw out the term "organizing", the system is self-something, and I suggest it is the self part of the definition that is more important since it is the more general.  (Self-organization in the sense I have outlined here clearly includes self-organization as the article currently defines it, but is broader in its scope.)
Secondly, both CS's work and this page cite certain systems as "self-organizing" where I think that claim is dubious, the most obvious example being certain cellular automata. Certainly these systems may display an increase in structural order or complexity, but I would argue that insufficient attention is paid to the self- part.  For example, many CA displaying emergent complexity rely on a hefty input of effort from the computer in order to maintain the integrity of their rules, information transmission, etc., via the use of error-correcting codes and so on.  The behaviour of many CA relies on the rules being "perfect" all the time, not subject to noise, etc.  For example the Game of Life only "works" with the given update rule: change it even slightly and the system will no longer behave the same.  It may be "organizing" according to CS's definition, but it is not self-organizing because the parameters of its dynamics must be so specific.
I don't feel it would be appropriate to just charge on in to the article with these objections so I'd like there to be a debate here before any changes are made.  Ideas, anyone?
— WebDrake 20:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of self-organization/sources used 

message: I wonder is the articles Self-organization and emergence should be related more tightly? Also, should the categories :Category:Self-organization and :Category:Emergence (just created it) be directly related somehow? (the difference is not very clear to me) Karol 09:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-organization & emergence 

message: The second law of thermodynamics as defined on its page only affects the entropy of an isolated system, whereas a closed system can exchange heat and work, but not matter, with its surroundings. The statement in this section that "However, a closed system can gain macroscopic order while increasing its overall entropy. Specifically, a few of the system's macroscopic degrees of freedom can become more ordered at the expense of microscopic disorder." therefore seems odd, as it can gain entropy from its surroundings. Is this what's meant? ..dave souza, talk 21:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having come closer to clarifying this issue at Evolution#Self-organization and entropy I've added the statistical thermodynamics connection here, and have changed the "closed system" reference above to avoid a contradiction, hope someone can clarify this point. ...dave souza, talk 09:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Self-organization vs. entropy

message: Substituted at 15:46, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment