Talk:Gruppen

message: If the second half of the row consists of the retrograde of the first half doesn't the row contain two of the five intervals found between the notes in the first half, rather than containing one of all eleven intervals as in an all-interval twelve-tone row? Hyacinth (talk) 20:05, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Look more carefully at your examples. The numbers under the second one do not take into account the direction of the intervals, and so can all be reduced to numbers between 1 and 6. Each such "interval class" in the first half of the series has a corresponding interval class in the retrograde of the second half, but in each case the direction of the interval is the opposite. For example, the first interval of the row is a falling major third, the last one a rising major third; the second is a rising fourth, the second-last a falling fourth. If you measure all intervals only in ascending order, their values in semitones are 8, 5, 9, 11, 2, 6, 10, 1, 3, 7, and 4. Therefore, exactly one each of the directed intervals from 1 to 11, which is the definition of an all-interval series. Of course, this series also has the special property of retrograde symmetry; there are many more assymetrical than symmetrical all-interval rows. Out of the 1,928 all-interval row types, there are only 22 classes that are symmetrical.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:29, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: All-interval row

message: There seems to be another recording:
*1993. Tanglewood Music Center Orchestra, Theatre-Concert Hall, 25 August 1993; Oliver Knussen, Reinbert de Leeuw, Robert Spano, conductors (Details, Boston Symphony Orchestra)
Worth mentioning? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:31, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting. It does appear to be a commercial release, even if available only as a download. Formatting for the discography would appear to be the only question here: place, publisher, catalog number, etc., and whether these things are relevant in such a case.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:38, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: IF (big if) one is interested in  of Gruppen, this seems to be the recording which can be most easily obtained, and it's probably the cheapest.Music (and books) solely distributed electronically don't seem to lend themselves to the the niceties of citation conventions.If you add it, you might also throw a  into the article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:21, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly the cheapest commercial release, unless of course you are into shoplifting, which is more feasible for a CD than an MP3 download! As for ease of obtaining, I just tried to order 200 copies and, do you know what? The website crashed my order! Electronic distribution appears to have many perils in addition to niceties of citation conventions. I see that Wikipedia now demands those stupid italic title conventions. I also notice that there are thousands of articles out there that do not conform. Yet. I suppose they will do, eventually, and at about that same, the policy will be reversed, so we can start taking the templates down again. Oh, well, I suppose it keeps us off the streets.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:38, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: In this case, at least, citation conventions have proved to be flexible enough to rise to the occasion. There is even a catalog number for this recording, if you know where to look. Thanks again for calling attention to this release. This makes 24 recordings of which I am aware, though only seven are commercial releases.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:40, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Discography

message: *Gruppen tone row (Harvey 1975, 58; Misch 1998, 161; Whittall 2008, 185; Stockhausen 1963b, 116, and Maconie 2005, 149 show this row transposed up a tritone).
Why not? Hyacinth (talk) 12:03, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the issue is: If the prime form of the row really is the one beginning on G, why do all these authors offer T6 = R0 instead? I believe I know the answer to this (it lies in Stockhausen's symbolic use of the note G above middle C, not only in Gruppen but also in Zeitmaße, Klavierstücke VII and IX, and Inori), but I have not yet been able to find a published source to confirm it. Imke Misch comes very close to explaining this, I think, and her book may yet have the citation I am seeking. Until I find it, however, this remains Original Research.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Why