Talk:Jiddu Krishnamurti/Archive 1

message: I added the 1929 reference to the "Truth is a pathless land" quote, since the original statement is easily as worth reading (IMHO) as his later 1980 paraphrasing/analysis of it (which I think is the quote here). -- Ds13 08:10, 23 April 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  1929 reference 

message: I am adding a specific reference and link to David Bohm, and a brief mention of their series of conversations in the 1980s that resulted in the publication of The Ending of Time and The Future of Humanity. The geez 05:27, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Does anyone know where the audiobooks and/or DVDs of the Krishnamurtu/Bohm conversations can be found? ThePeg 16:25 14 July 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ThePeg (talk • contribs) 15:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: There is a quote somewhere from Huxley where he said that after his house burnt down that the first books he bought to refill his library were that of K. Also, I beleive there is a connection with Alan Watts and K that could be researched and mentioned. I would like to see a more organized concept section, rather then just a few random quotes that have been put up. There were a number of concepts that were reoccurant in his lectures. I will try and work on this. Maybe some information should be put up about his home in California that is now a library, and the organization that now exists. These are as much notes for me as they are for you. A timeline would be nice showning major events in his life. A more complete list of people who have said they were influenced by K. I know Ken Wilber belongs on that list, and many more. Ken Wilber said that K was an early teacher who sparked his interest and got him thinking. Stevenwagner 00:34-00:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  General Comments and Proposals 

message: Should Madame Blavatsky not also be associated with K in this entry? Curious to get feedback on this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.229.230.79 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 12 August 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I say no. There is the link to information on the Theosophical Society where they can go to find that information. Part of my reason for saying no is that Leadbeater is already mentioned, and ideologically Krishnamurti had completely devorced himself at an early age from the dogma that he was groomed into. It would be misleading to imply that there is a substantial link between K and Blavatsky. Also, I just noticed she is already mentioned at another place in the article! Stevenwagner 00:02-00:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blavatsky? 

message: J. Krishnamurti can be viewed as unique - but in much the same sense that each person is unique. And also in the sense that he was a distinctive teacher, writer, etc.
But I believe he can also be seen among a wave of teachers with cultural and ethnic roots in Asia who were interested in "breaking the mold" and reaching out beyond the limits of traditional identifications - at very least being involved in inter-personal dialogues in Western languages. Among others, starting their careers roughly at the same time, were Vivekananda (of India) and Soyen Shaku (of Japan). Others could be added to the list.
J.K.'spersonal limitations were explored to some degree by Radha Rajagopal Sloss (the daughter of J/K.'smistress of many years), but all men have limitations. So did the others who gained some prominence in the same years and since. But all seemed to be reasonably effective in helping other humans to go beyond the habits of hidebound religious views and ethnic diffidence.
There may be a historical aspect to all this, even if these men did not influence one another.
Chester —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.194.162.29 (talk • contribs) 22:46, 3 January 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wave of Kindred Teachers? 

message: This is from a post at a yahoogroup I subscribe to.
: this reminds me of the story of Krishnamurti: "The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order.  On August 2, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members."
: He did this because: "I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. "
I'm just putting it here for now because I'm short of time (need to log off and go to work). I'll come back to it later. Haven't tried to find a source for it yet, or looked at how it might fit in this article. PaulHammond 18:12, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended Pathless land quote 

message: The articles linked from the booklist about Krishnamurti's Journal and Krishnamurti's Notebook contained no publication data when I ran across them. The ISBN listed in the booklist's description of the Notebook was actually for the Journal. I fixed this, and placed the proper publication data into the linked articles for Journal and Notebook, but a problem remains. Since I don't have access to either book, I cannot determine whether the present content description of them is correct. Thanks in advance if you can verify the descriptions. --Blainster 22:30-22:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all let me thank you for your additions and for cleaning up the article. The content description of these two book is correct. (I haven't read these two books completely, so my opinion is based upon Mary Lutyen's biography, which has a whole chapter about Krishnamurti's Notebook.) --Mallarme 12:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Journal and notebook: which is which? 

message: The article contains several quotations from a book titled The Last Talks. Although the booklist does not contain a book with this exact title, there are two possible candidates: Last Talks at Saanen, 1985, and The Future Is Now: Last Talks in India. We need an editor to determine which citation is the right one, and correct the text. --Blainster 02:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first quotation was from "The Future Is Now: Last Talks in India". I cannot find the second "last talks" quotation of section . --Mallarme 12:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Last Talks 

message: I removed a link to a Portuguese (language) site for K. ebooks, because it is not useful to those who are unilingual. There are two acceptable options in my opinion. The best would be to provide a link here to the appropriate Portuguese Wiki about Krishnamurti, and place the K. ebook link there. In addition, if the Krishnamurti ebooks themselves are available in English, then there should be an English language site we could find to link to. The appropriate WP Manual of Style guidline about foreign language links is here. --Blainster 16:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to non-English language sites 

message: Krishnamurti had in his life occasionaly commented on the apparent contradictions and paradoxes in his life. As to his singulary unique upbringing: the followers, the hangers on, the Theosophical heirarchies, the apostles and the sense of spiritual expectation that surrounded him, he would assert that it had never left an impression on him, that it left no mark on his mind.
This section has been removed from the article for two reasons: It carries no source citation, and it was entered as a separate section in debate style. It could be added back in an appropriate place if properly referenced. --Blainster 15:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Defense of Krishnamurti" 

message: i'm not sure i understand the discussion about the personal details of his life being relevant. you say the page is about him and everything about him, ups and downs and technically you're right. but when you're being technical you make a division between what's really important and what's important in this isolated little web encyclopedia world, exactly the sort of separatist attitude that got us into trouble in the first place. what's important about krishnamurti is his ideas. it's easy to say, well if he's the master and he can't perfect his own methods then where's the proof, but krishnamurti always made it clear that we were all in this together, and you can't be a perfect ten buddha in a society of minus threes. we all have to evolve together. that krishnamurti could see this from six feet under is part of his greatness. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nir.slsk (talk • contribs) 07:44-07:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like your opinion to me. What's important to me about Krishna is who influenced him and who he influenced. His ideas to me are secondary. I'm far more interested in his personal life. Any biography of a person, does not tend to expound only their ideas, but rather all of them. This is a biography, it's not a thesis on how wonderful his mind was. Wjhonson 22:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  what's important 

message: Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry J.Krishnamurti Biography probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.144.97.157 (talk • contribs) 08:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External link 

message: I think that [a] few words about the controversies related to the "discovery" of Krishnamurti by Leadbeater should be appropriate in this Wikipedia article. Leadbeater has been suited in court for his pedophilic tendencies, and for having very special conceptions on the sexual education of young boys. All of this is well known now, and fully documented. It sheds new light on the "discovery" of Krishnamurti by Leadbeater on a beach in South India. Also, it would be quite informative to get accounts on what happened to Krishnamurti when he was "invited" in California for the first time, and all the strange events that appeared there at the same time. Also, Krishnamurti had an open break with the Theosophical Society. TwoHorned 11:30-11:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying you'd like *more* words? Or *less* words? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're asking for. Wjhonson 15:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I meant more words: the article is too elusive about that. No ? TwoHorned 19:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did you mean to say "a few words about ..."? That has quite a different implications than "few words about ...".—Nat Krause(Talk!) 21:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, I meant to say "a few words about ..." TwoHorned 19:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm re-reading the first three chapters of Mary Lutyens "The years of awakening" so I'll add a few quotes etc with citations. Wjhonson 21:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The following reference: "Theosophy, history of a pseudo-religion" by Rene Guenon is another acknowledged serious reference, and it is recognized as one of the best on these subjects. It has a special chapter on Krishnamurti and contains the detailed references and citations on Leadbeater's behaviour. TwoHorned 10:54-10:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Is there a description of Leadbeater's discovery of K in the article , I think It is remarkable if you consider it ,was K "made" or "found' , a genius walking on a beach ( from memory ) by leadbeater ( this has often puzzled me ) men of extrodinary intellect and insight are very rare ( at least I think ) has something of a great novel about it perhaps --Scribe5 23:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Krishnamurti's youth and his relations with H.P. Blavatsky's movement 

message: I'd like to see someone expand on his biography from the years 1930 to 1980. That section is just addressed by a few sentences. It would be nice to see something more detailed like we have for the early years. Wjhonson 23:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle life 

message: As an avid reader of Krishnamurti's talks, I have to say that the first thing that comes to mind reading this article is that the section dealing with his "philosophies" is rather bizarre. Whoever has complied this section has taken quotations of his and vastly oversimiplified his ideas. As a devoted Wikipedian, I understand the need to make his major concepts clear to beginners, but this is just wrong. The only respectful and objective explanation would be A: direct quotes and B: an explanation of the fact that his ideas are only fully understood through reading/listening to them in the original, and that an "academic philosophy" style summation of his concepts is contrary to the philosohy itself. To quote the man, "When Krishnamurti dies you will...invent phrases, dogmas, systems of belief, creeds, and to create philosophies." I move that this summary of his concepts be removed as totally insufficient. You cannot take his quotes out of context ever. They are a dialectic for understanding human experience, not a canon of individual concepts. VanTucky 05:37-05:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i very much agree with the observations contained in the last two sentences above.  i'm a bit at a loss about the offending section, though. which section of the article is user vantucky refering to?  Mr.e-i-b 15:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  sorry, should have clarified that. I mean the "Other Themes" section. Besides that it reads like a list, the section above it only contains one concept, as if that was the only major thought of JK. VanTucky 21:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  agreed. i too, think that this summary doesn't do jk justice and should be removed. on the other hand, the various krishnamurti foundations are also responsible: they keep putting out these "themed" compilations of his sayings that basically amount to redactions.  Mr.e-i-b 15:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  yes, very true about the recent publications. I havent heard any complaints, so I'll write a statement detailing why a list of summarised ideas is inadequate to replace it. VanTucky 17:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict of Interest 

message: I think we need to add a siginficant section on the schools JK founded around the world. it was a big part of his work and little to no mention of it is made. VanTucky 19:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schools 

message: Placing multiple long quotations into the article to support an editorial position is inappropriate. Please make them short or better yet, just put in a reference to the cited text and leave it at that.--Blainster 17:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long quotations 

message: The people who most directly influenced Krishnamurti in his early period are relevant. The Van Hooks were certainly in that circle and the conflict regarding Hubert was not minor. He was not just "one of several". He was on intimate terms with K during these years, as was his mother, part of the inner circle, etc etc. Wjhonson 18:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: there were a number of people "intimate" with jk around that time, but their life is not what's being discussed in this entry. and a number that directly influenced jk, although whether the van hooks were included is doubtful, considering the tight reins on jk by his "minders". as for the quest for the "vehicle", leadbeater practically never let up, prior and after jk. there was always someone on the pipeline.Mr.e-i-b 19:14-19:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot comment on whether that might be true, however Lutyens does not mention *any* other possible vehicles except Van Hook. That is relevant wouldn't you say? And if there were many, perhaps you could find a citation that states who exactly they were. It would be interesting to have a list of them. So far, van Hook is the only one I've found named explicitely and certainly he is the only one who actually came to India for training. That's makes his position unique. Wjhonson 20:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i suggest people look into leadbeater's life in more depth for details on his various proteges. around the period in question there was also rajagopal (look at "awakening" ch. 10 also ch. 14) and theodore st. john ("awakening" chapter 24 and also jayakar p 66). granted that not all of them had jk's exalted status. but this doesn't make the van hook "candidacy" any more relevant.Mr.e-i-b 20:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As you're well-aware, Van Hook is the *only* other person mentioned by Lutyens as being a potential "vehicle" for the indwelling of Lord Maitreya. Van Hook is also the *only* other person mentioned by Besant in that same category. Also Van Hook is the *only* other boy brought to India to be tutored for this purpose. That does make Van Hook more relevant than any other protege of Leadbeater's. Wjhonson 01:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: that's not the dispute here. the point is that this is about jk, not leadbeater or his proteges. there is way too much irrelevant detail in the article and way too little of substance about the subject.Mr.e-i-b 03:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The fact that VanHook was the only other boy, besides Nitya that Krishnaji was allowed to be around when he was at Adyar. Not relevant either? The fact that Mrs van Hook was Krishnaji's teacher not relevant? Wjhonson 18:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: relevant to what? our understanding of k? or leadbeater? or the theosophical society? and how is the fact that mrs van hook his teacher, among several others, and for a limited time, relevant enough to be included here? how many details about third persons are going to be included? Mr.e-i-b 18:18-18:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The relevance of Van Hook is to Krishnamurti.Wjhonson 18:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: really? how did van hook's "candidacy" for messiah affected k? it affected van hook, that's for sure.Mr.e-i-b 18:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Van Hook 

message: * the article is too long as it is
* too many unnecessary details that can be easily found elsewhere
* the over-emphasis on the early part of his life and the links to theosophy
* great amount of work still needed in order to give a rounded and balanced picture
* goes well beyond what an encyclopedic entry requires
because of all the verbosity and its unavoidable details, a great amount of unnecessary talk over issues otherwise long settled (or at least, extensively discussed) in more proper fora has taken place on this page.
so i think the article should be restricted to include only the following:
# the intro and "his legacy" recombined in a single section, maybe with some of the biography info truncated.
# the following sections: "list of published works", "references" and "external links"
and that's all. if you may, let me know what you think about this.Mr.e-i-b 16:32-17:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, if you want to cut sections, do it in the quotations, teachings etc. those are the sections that are verbose without any accompanying paragrahical text or justification. All the present Bio info is completely neccessary per wp guidleines. Truncating the bio summary in the intro paragraph is fine, but even if its shortened bibliographic info about his writings and biographers doesnt belong in an intro. The reason alot of time is spent explaining his early bio is that it is the section requiring the most explanation to those that are unfamiliar with his life. henceforth with his talks and other things it is fairly straightforward. Nowhere in the article doesnt it even hint that it was the most important time to study JK life, but a person's youth is formative and begs recognition in the case of such an extrordinary circumstance as being named a messiah at childhood. VanTucky 17:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I rm the repetitous sections. All sections regarding quotations unaccompanied by encyclopedic text are superflous and belong at Wikiquote as simple quotations. Let's try to keep the article on topic. I rm the intro section chroniclling biographers bc it is listed at the end of the article. that is the accepted format for bios on WP. VanTucky 17:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed about the quotes etc. now the present bio may be relevant according to wp guidelines, but necessary? the details of what one deems "necessary" is the problem here, and wikipedia is not the forum to resolve this. i just want to stick to the facts of dates, locations and actions as much as possible, and provide the info for someone who wants to look into it further. one thing that has not been disputed until the advent of this article (judging from the comparative weight) is the fact that krishnamurti's influence and recognition was much, much greater after 1929 than before (i purposefully disregard the fleeting media attention to the various scandals and celebrity status during the early period).Mr.e-i-b 17:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a section dealing with his legacy and significance later in the article. Bio info, including the Theosophical issue, is included as a prelude to understanding the course of his life. a biography. and that episode is certainly an important event in JK's life. Just bc say, baseball player is famous for home runs, doesnt mean we leave out his early life or other things for the sake of emphasis on what he was famous for. so it takes a few more words to tell about JK's growing up than his impact. so what? as it stands the article is far from too large. You might want to look into cutting down the general info section of the External Links though. 10-15 links is about tops for WP:EL standards. VanTucky 17:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: nobody said anything about leaving out the early life or the links to theosophy. this is about over-emphasizing them, starting with the theosophy box. now as for his later life and "legacy", compared to the early parts, they are woefully inadequate and underweighted. feel free to undertake the burden of presenting all this in a concise, balanced, neutral manner.Mr.e-i-b 18:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And why it's that way was previously explained. I happen to have Lutyens first book of the trilogy. I do not have the other two. Thus the article is based on the sources at hand. If someone has book two, it would make sense to add those details. I don't know those details, I don't have the book. That's the reason it based primarily on his early life. I assume that *someone* has a book on his philosophy or later life, I didn't add those sections. Wjhonson 18:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well, no. it makes sense to not publish anything until a complete picture is presented. unless the lemma is renamed "some notes on the early life of krishnamurti". the intro and reference sections i alluded to would be more than enough for a fairly inclusive entry, and probably would have avoided a lot of the drama.Mr.e-i-b 18:26-18:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

text: as i have done a lot of the additions "for clarity, accuracy and readability for weeks", i have no problem at all relegating them to the dust bin. this is not about preserving my, or your, work, however nicely put together. it's about presenting a proper encyclopedic entry. as for the theosophy box, you're just wrong. see the sub-section "flaws in the article" on this page.Mr.e-i-b 18:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Jiddu Krishnamurti is topically related to Theosophy. it is an empirical fact. and its not about "preserving our work", its about keeping this BIOGRAPHICAL wp article (part of the Bio wikiproject) intact with as much CITABLE BIOGRAPHICAL INFO (of which his episode with the TS is one part) as possible. Look at other bio pages, the JK page does NOT have too much personal history. and under WP guidlines (which you seem to be just ignoring) the page is included in the Theosophy scope, and therefore the infobox stays. Dont take it as an attack on JK or a conspriracy to further tie him in as a Theosophist footnote or something. the article makes it clear from the intro on that this was just one facet of his life. again, key word here is biography. the last thing anyone needs to do is cut bio info from a biography. VanTucky 19:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: wrong again. this is not a biography, but a lemma in an encyclopedia. we can cut as much info as we want, as long as we preserve a balanced, rounded approach, and source/bibliographical entries for further research so interested parties can pursue it. the wp guidelines, are just that, guidelines. the "casual user" will not read the guidelines to know the nuances. they can as easily assume of a continuing link between theosophy, the society, and jk and his "teachings". the box does not belong here any more than a box dedicated to annie besant or hinduism does. it should just go.Mr.e-i-b 19:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You're not understanding what WP is and is not here. the internet isnt going to run out of space. This isnt a traditional encyclopedia, and while it is written in "encyclopedic style" it's biographical entries (and this is again, a page under the Bio Wikiproect, which connotates that it is a biography) are not limited to footnotes of personal histories. and again, if you want the sections on his later and early life balanced for size (not that necessity of explanation seems to matter to you) go ahead and EXPAND. there is no reason to make any large bio cuts. and I dont know what terminology youre working with, but "lemma" is not a word I am familiar with in WP terms. and the WP guidelines define what makes a WP bio entry. They are not to pick and choose from. and if you dont understand the purpose of category infoboxes, read their def. VanTucky 19:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i understand very well what wp is and is not, and how it can be abused. just because the internet has unlimited space, it doesn't mean it has to be bloated full of hot air. first, the addition of any template, is an editorial decision, and noone is bound by it. my main concern is not making any article consistent with whatever template somebody has put there but presenting the right info. you categorize jk as a theosophy topic, but that's only your opinion. even then, i don't see the importance of that box. theosophy, and the theosophical society are as of last count mentioned 14 times in the article, and linked 3 times. why is this not enough?Mr.e-i-b 19:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: see the WP entry on "build the web". how is deleting biograpical information for editorial emphasis "the right info"? again, expand the other sections if you want them to have more emphasis rather than make deletions to biographical information. and dont be so defensive about any connection between JK and TS. "they" nor I am trying to impose a Theosophical POV or some outdated artificial template on the page, but we do have to mold the article under the general standards of WP style and the Biographical Wikiproject in particular. TS and JK are related topics. but if having the infobox really is a thorn in your side, I'm willing to delete it despite it's qualification for inclusion. just leave the complete account of his bio be, and try and expand more info in places lacking rather than nitpick over section size. VanTucky 19:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: taking irrelevant, unnecessary, easily obtainable info out of an article is hardly contributing to "editorial emphasis", but by doing so, emphasis is placed on the important stuff by default. nobody said that jk and theosophy were not at one time related. they just were not related as emphatically, or closely, as that box could have a casual user believe. you think that the box is qualified to be included. even if that's not just an opinion (which it is), why do we have to include everything that's "qualified" in the first place? there are several exhaustive bios on the subject, and countless other sources. the box should have never been put there.Mr.e-i-b 20:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Honestly I dont care about the damn infobox, its not really my edit anyway. I just wanted you to know that per the guidelines set down for the format, it could be included on the JK page. I dont think it absolutely needs to be, but facts is facts. VanTucky 20:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The Theosophy template box has been added to all sorts of people for whom Theosophy was not their *entire life* so to speak. For example, it's on the page for Abner Doubleday, its on the page for A P Sinnett. Both are examples of people who had a life before, during, and perhaps after that had nothing to do with Theosophy. Mr E I B thinks that it has to be used only on those pages for people who did not reject Theosophy. I disagree. It's used on those pages for people who are well-known as being central *at some time* to Theosophy. On another note, I believe it's quite likely Mr eib doesn't have any other biographical source on Krishnamurti, otherwise we wouldn't have these pages and pages of discussion with almost no movement on expanding those parts of his biography that need work. Wjhonson 03:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: what you believe about my "biographical sources" is irrelevant, and also easily disprovable by examining the edits i've made. i don't believe that the article should be expanded at all until the awful, misinformed, misquoted mess has first been cleared up. once the ignorant, pov-type statements are removed from the article, we can see about whether the subject can be tackled. what i'm going to resist, is making this somebody's "pet project" including my own. or making it "interesting" or "nice-looking" or conforming to some arbitrary wikipedia standard at the expense of veracity. the article should not have been started because it was incomplete. there were also a bunch of quotes taken out of context to push a pov and opinions galore. you were around. you could have used "sources" to see and correct that. but you didn't.Mr.e-i-b 17:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I told you what sources I have. I'm not going to "correct" quotes that I cannot source or disprove. The only part of this article I have worked on, is the early life up until he disbanding of the Order. That's the *only* part I've worked on. Hope that's clear. That part is well-sourced and as soon as the rest of his *life* is expanded to the same size than the article would be a balanced treatment of his life. I have no opinions on his philosophy whatsoever, I didn't work on it, I don't know anything about it, I've never read any of his own books. Wjhonson 18:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Proposal To Reposition the Article 

message: I think, what with the recent cleanup by several users and so many good inline cites and such that this should be put up for GA review. any objections, comments? VanTucky 17:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i have no objections either way. certain quotes and phrasing still need further elaboration, i think.Mr.e-i-b 17:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA? 

message: removed the following quote from the "meditations" section, as it was unsourced. if anybody knows the source, please reinstate:  “So a mind that is in meditation is concerned only with meditation, not with the meditator. The meditator is the observer, the censor, the thinker, the experiencer, and when there is the experiencer, the thinker, then he is concerned with reaching out, gaining, achieving, experiencing. And that thing which is timeless cannot be experienced. There is no experience at all. There is only that which is not nameable.”  Mr.e-i-b 17:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed quote 

message: imo, more info needed in the article:
1. how jk's language, themes and audience changed through the years
2. the different circles of associates
3. his early celebrity and the apparent non-effect on his personality
4. the middle years (1930s-1960s) including the quiet war years and the authorities' concern over his pacifism.
5. info on the foundations and various schools, including more on his educational concerns and influence on people such as maria montessori etc, as well as the discussions with teachers and students.
6. more of the relationship with huxley and bohm and the 2-way infuence, his contacts with indira gandhi, and his take on the indian non-violence/independence movement
7. the influence he had on people such as alan watts and henry miller, deepak chopra etc, as well as the interest of the 60s and 70s generation.
8. better articulation of the recurrent themes such as meditation, education, choiceless awareness, proper listening, rejection of authority, etcMr.e-i-b 18:17-18:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  more info needed 

message: I have a problem with this passage: "He gave his last talk in India a month before his death, in 1986, in Ojai, California." Does this sentence mean that he spoke in Hindi, or that Ojai, California is actually in India? It makes no sense, can someone please clarify this? 68.161.226.112 14:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been reworded. He spoke in Madras, India, and died the following month in Ojai, California. Krishnamurti spoke only in English, though many of his books have been translated in most Indian languages.  Best wishes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.101.42.172 (talk • contribs) 07:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ojai 

message: I removed the "India" template from the discussion page, as I believe K's concerns were universal, and any attempt at narrow classification is contrary to the essense of subject and the discussion. Please voice your objections, if any.Mr.e-i-b 15:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal Of India template 

message: there is one person who has an agenda here, basically trying to describe k according to aryel sanat's book and other such interpretations in some sort of "mystical" lore. as far as i'm concerned there's going to be no compromise at all regarding this. this is primarily a biographical entry. this person keeps bringing isolated instances of k's quotes where it suits his/her purposes, taking them out of context, or promoting views and language of k which k later discarded, or used sparingly only in order to appeal to and be understood by, a specific audience. this person would also add emphasis where there was none, in order to support his/her views, and add plainly wrong info for the same reason. he/she has forfeited any right to work on this article; i'm going to make sure that this is the case by reverting any edit the person does. as i said before, the article does not have to include details. the problem was, in addition to the so-called "editor" mentioned above, there were truly ignorant people editing this, with a very limited knowledge of k. also, there were others trying to find a "middle ground" between views of k, muddying the article even more, and making it even more long-winded. isn't wikipedia wonderful? there is quite a bit of relevant info to be added, so there's still work, including more citations. one thing i'll try to work on, is replacing all quotations with descriptive language, as i think the article violates copyright by including quotes verbatim without permission. may i also say that i very much appreciate your work, and your comments.Mr.e-i-b 14:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I agree that your general approach is the correct one in this context, but are there any procedures for approaching the problem of the continued inclusion of so much mystical material which reappears within a 24 hour period of it being edited out of the article? Could this person be persuaded to create an article on 'Theosophical Perspectives on Krishnamurti' or some such thing and let this article remain more or less biographical, academic and objective in general tone? M.Eiger 19:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  agenda 

message: In the introduction in states that K's supporters founded the schools. In the section headed, 'Education' it states that K founded them. Any body got some good source material on this? Any comments? 89.240.7.84 09:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  there's a lot of sources and material on this. unfortunately, it is hard to add material (in a neutral way, which involves a lot of research, labor, and constant second-guessing on my part regarding my own words) when most of the time spent is correcting single-minded disruptions. as for the question above, in broad terms they're both technically correct. there can be clarifying footnotes, which i may get to if there's time.Mr.e-i-b 15:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  for instance, i have in front of me, several sources about things i added in the "influence" section, some of which are contradictory. it can take me hours of not readily available time to cull those into acceptable, concise references that can be footnoted in support of my recently added text.Mr.e-i-b 15:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: i edited the intro re schools in response to the ambiguity you noted. more info will be added in the proper section at some point hopefully.Mr.e-i-b 17:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, that looks better. 89.240.7.147 21:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I know that K founded Brockwood Park School in bramdean, england, Oak Grove in Ojai, california, and two schools in india which i believe to be vally school and rishee vally school (those last ones im not certain of). Then there are perhaps 3 or more schools founded not by k, but either by the krishnamurti foundation and/or followers, making them "unofficial" k schools. I realize this all is fairly useless without a citation, but Im hoping this will be helpful in finding source material (im afraid that task is a little daunting for me). I was a student at brockwood park school for four years, so what im saying is fairly reliable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.180.131.209 (talk • contribs) 19:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education 

message: Noticing a mixture of both in the article, any comments on standardising either way? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.240.14.51 (talk) 20:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  British or US English spelling? 

message: User:VanTucky has deleted   most of the Ext links claiming they are against WP:EL. Would he please tell us against which point on that page they go against? Many of the links do belong here. --Voidocore 13:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, the links are either unnecesary (Wikipedia is not a link farm, and unless clearly necessary links should not be included) or violate WP:EL as link spam. With the burden of proof resting on those who would include content to prove its appropriateness, it falls on you to gain consensus for the links. VanTucky (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links