Talk:History of East Timor

message: Can someone add sections on these events - they are quite important events in the dying months of Portuguese rule and the lead-up to the Indonesian invasion
: I agree, PMA. Alas, while I stayed reasonably current on the events at the time they were taking place, that was a long, long time ago and I've forgotten most of it. Tannin 04:08, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operasi Komodo and UDT Coup 

message: The cat's out of the bag - a huge amount of stuff has recently been published by the National Security Archive.
Start from here to read straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB174/index.htm
Boud 10:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  GWU national security archive 

message: Perhaps more needs to be said of Australia. The oil issue is clearly a big one and only get's brief mention here. Especially since Australians like to present themselves as the heroes and saviours of East Timor thanks to INTERFET when in reality the Australia gov along with the US (and UK?) where a big stumbling block and a villian for a long time (and Oz continues to deny East Timor their rights) Nil Einne 14:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Australia 

message: The merger  tag was posted today without comment that I can find. I'm no expert on Timor, Australia or an alleged cover up, but I have a couple of more generic observations:
*1. From looking at Talk:Australia's alleged East Timor cover up, there's a lot of controversy over POV in the other article. In fact there's been a proposal to delete the article for POV reasons. Purely from a process point of view, you might want to straighten out those issues before any merger.
*2. There's so much in the article on the alleged cover up topic that it would really lengthen the History of East Timor article. If the other article is not deleted, it might make more editorial sense to mention the cover up allegations in one sentence in this article and then include a link to the other article.--A. B. 15:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed merger with the article [[Australia's alleged East Timor cover up]]

message: I'm an Indonesian, a Christian, 17 years old and I've read the History of East Timor article. I think it's so unfair and gives negative view to Indonesia, especially Indonesian government policy. The facts are right but this article doesn't give facts from Indonesian side.
There are several unfair facts, i.e :
1. The Associação Popular Democrática Timorense (Timorese Popular Democratic Association or Apodeti) supported integration with Indonesia, as an autonomous province, but had very little grassroots support.
Declaration of Balibo (1975) had proved this wrong.
2. In the mid-1990s, the pro-democracy People's Democratic Party (PRD) in Indonesia called for withdrawal from East Timor. The party's leadership was arrested in July 1996.[8]
The head of PRD, Budiman Sudjatmiko, was arrested with some other PRD leaders in July 1996 not only because of East Timor issue, but also for several critics against authoritarian government of Suharto, including demand for Suharto's withdrawal from presidential position. During Suharto's regime, this issue was extremely 'taboo'.
3. Directly after this, Indonesian-backed paramilitaries as well as Indonesian soldiers carried out a campaign of violence and terrorism in retaliation
Some paramilitary organizations (popular in Indonesia and East Timor as milisi) were immediately established by loyal pro-integration volunteer. One of those was Besi Merah Putih (Red and White Iron, BMP) led by Eurico Guterres (had been sentenced for 10 years at the recent time by Indonesian court). These milisi didn't get any support from neither Indonesian government nor its military. They made violences, riots and so on because they believed that the referendum was unfair. UNAMET which controlled the referendum was considered pro-Australia, a country that has so many self-interest on East Timor. The only 21.5% result of referendum for pro-integration didn't reflect the true opinion of East Timorese. In campaigns before referendum, pro-integration and pro-independence mass are balanced.
There were also some reports that the pro-integration people were forced to vote for independence. The Fretilin's military forces (Falintil) came to their houses in the morning right before referendum. The pro-independence or Fretilin, believed that USA and Australia would aid them, launched a counterattack against pro-integration milisi and even attack Indonesian forces that were ready to withdraw from East Timor. No choice for those poor Indonesian forces but to defend themselves; otherwise they'd die.
Many pro-integrations had said the referendum as ragged, but no Western countries believe. But when Viktor Yushchenko in Ukraine, Aliaksandar Milinkevich in Belarus, and Mikhail Saakashvili in Georgia said so, you can see: sanctions, critics, and else. What a democracy. So what is democracy? It is Western countries' way to control the culture of Eastern countries. Hamas in Palestine won the election by what the Westerns said as democracy, but the biggest democratic country in the world gave economic sanction as the result. Lee family in Singapore, Kings in Saudi Arabia, were they elected by democracy? But the biggest democratic country in the world didn't say anything about it.
4. This is the fact:
What did Portugal do for East Timor?
During three centuries they did nothing. They colonized East Timor and made the people suffer. They left East Timor in civil war.
What did Indonesia do for East Timor?
When East Timor became the 27th province of Indonesia, the Suharto government build the roads, buildings, bridges, churches, electricities, telephone networks, water supplies, hospitals, universities. Indonesian government improved the economy, health and education in East Timor.
The militias killed approximately 1,400 Timorese and forcibly pushed 300,000 people into West Timor as refugees. The majority of the country's infrastructure, including homes, irrigation systems, water supply systems, and schools, and nearly 100% of the country's electrical grid were destroyed.
Impossible. They built it and then they destroyed it. Even if it was right, East Timorese didn't cost anything. Indonesian government only took what had they given.
The infrastructure maintenance in East Timor was the fastest among the other provinces in Indonesia in 80s. Many other provinces felt slightly unhappy because of this unfair policy. Ex-Vice President Try Sutrisno said at that time to the people which criticized the lack of develompent in East Timor 'Only crazy people say that the development of infrastructure in East Timor isn't good'.
What did USA and Australia do for East Timor?
In 1975 they let Indonesia 'invade' East Timor and didn't say anything. A poor region that won't give anything, they thought.
And then, there are issue that uranium was found in Timor Gap. An established and strong government of Indonesia can't be forced to share much of it, thought the Australian government. If East Timor is independent, their poor, newborn and weak governmnent will be easily tempted to share those materials.
In 1998, Australia spoke loudly for Indonesian withdrawal from East Timor. Under the banner of anti-imperialism. But also with the help from the country that invaded Philippines, Nicaragua, Grenada, Somalia, Vietnam and Iraq. They sent troops, 'liberate' East Timor, let East Timorese declared their independence in triumph and euphoria, and then left them again.
Now, East Timor is one of the poorest nations in the world.
I'll continue next time.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Adri K. (talk • contribs) 
Paragraph 3 of point 4 does make a lot of sense. I agree with you. But considering that, what now doesn't make sense is East Timor's independence. Was it just a matter of pride? Was there something political behind want for independence? They were abandoning what Indonesia did for them, but for what?
Redshift489 06:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indonesian People's View on East Timor 

message: for this paragraph:
"The United States had also expressed concerns over Portuguese Timor in the wake of the war in Vietnam. Having gained Indonesia as an ally, Washington did not want to see the vast archipelago destabilised by a left-wing regime in its midst." --pmoney 09:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  citation needed 

message: This is supposed to be an article about the History of East Timor, not History of East Timor and extensive quotes of U.S. approval of it's subjugation. CJK 21:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: Indonesia is a multiethnic and multicultural nation. Its motto is 'Bhinneka Tunggal Ika' that literally means 'Those different things are the same one'. So, if you're talking about Indonesia, you can't only talk about Javanese (majority ethnic, almost 50%) or only about Islam (majority religion, almost 80%).
You can't say 'Muslim Indonesians KILLED people in East Timor because they're Catholic'. Informations for you, (which I think didn't know anything about Indonesian culture) Catholics in Indonesia aren't ony in East Timor. There are high percentage of Christians in Indonesia big cities, and Christians are major population in North Celebes, North Sumatra (these two provinces have an estimated population about 15.000.000 people), and a high-populated regency in Central Java, Magelang. A church will be easily find in Indonesia, except in some areas. 
President of Indonesia (constitutionally should be a Muslim) occasionally come to national Christmas celebration in Jakarta. How about in USA or other Western countries? Do your government representations come to an Islamic feast celebration?
Almost 20% of Parliament members in Indonesia are Christians. How are the Parliaments in Western countries? How much are the Muslims percentage?
For information, current Prime Minister of East Timor Mari Amude Alkatiri is also a Muslim, born to a Yemen family in Dili.
Indonesia is a place where you can find the high tolerance for religion. More than Western countries which often claim themselves as the place of liberty and freedom. I'm a Christian, and I'm also proud of my nationality: Indonesian.
Back to East Timor issue, actually there's no (or only little) religion issue there. If Indonesian Muslims treat the Christians so bad, not only East Timor; North Celebes, North Sumatra, Papua, Magelang, and even a half of capital city Jakarta will demand an independence. I don't say that in Indonesia, Muslims treat us Christians very well. We realize that we are still considered as slight minorities. But we can still express our faith to Lord Jesus Christ, and then to our red-and-white banner and garuda emblem.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Adri K. (talk • contribs) 
:Yes, from my understanding, religious differences were not a major reason (if at all) for any abuses, mistreatment etc, nor was it the reason why East Timor sought independance. Altough of course, the Church was used as a vehicle for independance but was not a REASON for wanting it. --Merbabu 03:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct. East Timorese used Christian church to show there difference from Indonesia. 1975 only 30% of ETimorese were Christian. Originally they were Animists. --J. Patrick Fischer 07:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion Issue in East Timor (reply for the opinion above) 

message: If anyone knows East Timorere history very well, then please create the unexisted articles in Template:History of East Timor. 96.229.179.106 (talk) 05:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work. I can't say I'm an expert, but I have a broad idea on East Timor history and I will have a go at filling out the template (some actually already exist) and maybe starting a few articles. --Merbabu (talk) 09:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Template

message: Shouldn't this article be merged with East Timor? In general, shouldn't the history of a country be under the article about the country rather than a separate article, unless the country doesn't exist any more? --Mistakefinder (talk) 03:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all. Country articles have a related "history of" article - I think they all do. History of Australia, History of Indonesia, etc. The history article can go into a lot more depth and detail, and thus should be much longer than the history section in the country article. It has nothing to do with whether the country is still in existence. --Merbabu (talk) 11:47, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with East Timor? 

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