Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 4

message: For some articles, eg. Hanover-Würzburg high-speed rail line, the rail line described is very long, making it very hard to edit the article around it. So I have modified the railway line header template to give you the option to start the box collapsed. To do this, just give the parameter "collapse=yes" to the template - example. By default, the box will not be collapsed, as is currently the norm. Having this option is important if you want to incorporate lines into other objects (eg. infoboxes) or if the box is very big. - 52 Pickup (talk) 17:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes! Yes! Yes! I rewrote my own header to do this, but obviously what you have done is the best answer. Being relatively new I don't want to mess about with existing templates. Thank you - Secondarywaltz (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autocollapse option 

message: A user (User:AlisonW) has introduced the use of elevated rail icons, and they were soon being used in quite a number of diagrams. However, I would say that the naming was not correct under those rules in WP:RDT or de:Wikipedia:Formatvorlage Bahnstrecke. That is, elevated variation should not be named using a suffix -ELEV, but (similar to tunnel icons) using a prefix. Consider that even an elevated crossover is needed (ÜST-ELEV: :File:BSicon ÜST-ELEV.svg), it is reasonable to guess that the number of icon IDs would get uncontrollable. I think actions, if needed, should be taken before the usages of them become too high to control, and before other languages of wikipedia start to use them. Comments are welcome. – PeterCX&Talk 13:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: To correct some bad information there, I didn't create the first/base set of elevated icons (xx-ELEV) I just found them as part of the consolidation effort of finding out what icons actually exist so that (a) duplicates can be deleted, (b) miscodes can be identified and corrected, and (c) new icons can be created to fill in the gaps. If you look at User:AlisonW/Rail_Icons you will find the current state of affairs. I have been working through the codes in error correcting them on article pages over all languages so that we all can be consistent in icon naming and usage. --AlisonW (talk) 13:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for any misleading statement. I didn't mean AlisonW was the first one to created those icons, but i meant we should try to rename those icons to use a prefix instead. – PeterCX&Talk 13:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. As regards using a prefix rather than a suffix, I don't think I agree. The 'elevated' icons are primarily all amended versions of existing icons, just with added elevation (!) and there is already a practice of adding a suffix for certain types of icons, eg. angles and curves. The icons are clearly needed as demonstrated by their use, and it makes it far easier to 'read' a route plan when coding it if it just has the "-ELEV" suffix than to develop a new set of specific prefixes (of which we arguably have too many already!) I'm interested to hear what others think ... --AlisonW (talk) 14:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Oh, and just to add to that comment, there are at least four icons per elevated code so the suffix is again clearer to work with. --AlisonW (talk) 14:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello. I'll put my hand up as the culprit/creator of 'ELEV', and my reason for going with a suffix is exactly as AlisonW has identified: ease and convenience.  In regards to "other languages", from what I have seen this template is now quite popular and used in a number of countries (I'm using them in Australia), and the project should take a view that it has grown from being a German template – a result of its success.   <B>S<SPAN STYLE="font-size:87%">EO75</SPAN></B> [talk] 21:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: lol, indeed yes. I've just been creating another batch of elevated codes for junctions and small stations, and it really wouldn't be possible without using a suffix. I've also found that these icons are being used in a whole range of languages, having today amended diagrams in French, German, Hungarian, Chinese, Norwegian, Finnish, Italian and Japanese, not to mention the various 'flavours' of English! Part of my reasoning in consolidating the icons to a single working table was that there is a lot of 're-inventing the wheel' going on, and simlifying what we do have will benefit everyone in the end. --AlisonW (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is "standard" in naming. That is, those icons does NOT follow the naming convention prefix-ID-suffix (xxxXXXxxx), but change to another naming style prefix-ID1-suffix-"-"-ID2 (xxxXXXxxx-ELEV). The rule is stated clearly in English, German Wikipedia, and also Commons:Commons:Railway line template/Policies. Consider that this project is multilingual (as both of you have said), it is important to keep the naming standard, but not amend it and give wikipedians of other language difficulties. And also, ELEV icons are NOT being used in other language yet. The most common icon, ELEV: :File:BSicon ELEV.svg, is not used in any article for any language listed on WP:RDT, and is only listed on the ja: RDT catalog (ja:Wikipedia:経路図テンプレート/鉄道用ピクトグラム一覧). – PeterCX&Talk 01:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

text: "Standards" aren't something have to remain fixed in stone for ever though, but need to change/bend to reflect new requirements. In this instance the use of a 'second suffix' for elevated lines makes a great deal of sense, basically and simply because a vast number of existing (and missing) icons will require an elevated version and that will be the *sole* difference between the versions. As such maintenance creation and usage of icon codes which just have that single 'addition' are easiest to code and work with if we add that simple extension. Whether "-ELEV" is the right suffix or it should be in some other language is, of course, a different discussion. However given that there are already codes based on German, French and English it would appear that "who needs it first names it" applies. --AlisonW (talk) 12:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ELEV 

message: Looking through the route maps category I came across Template:Lynton and Barnstaple line which had used some small text above the route maps as it shows the state of the line on three different dates. Although this is - clearly - a very unusual case I wasn't happy to see the column years not line up with the routes, so I've created a few new templates to enable a minimal amount of text (I suspect five characters is the maximum) to be placed in each 'pictogram' position on a line. 
Mapping BS3-5 they are Template:BS3text, Template:BS4text and Template:BS5text as these are the only overall widths where individual column titles might be required. They take the same parameters as BS3/4/5 do except that the first 3/4/5 entries are just the required text, not an icon code. Hope they are useful on those rare occasions. I haven't added them to the main project page yet as I'm not sure whether they should be. --AlisonW (talk) 00:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say that is a really good idea =) – PeterCX&Talk 08:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New "text" template 

message: Someone has fixed the gap problem by modifying the  to use the same as the german version. I've modified  to reflect the same changes. However for the  and  I'm not too sure how these changes would affect. Would someone with the sufficient knowledge help to change it? - oahiyeel talk 03:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is tricky. I've looked at this for a while and I can't figure out what's going on. What I have noticed is that the gaps are not there when using a collapsible BS3 table (e.g. ) but the gaps are there when using a collapsible BS1 table (e.g. Hanover-Würzburg high-speed rail line). More I haven't been able to figure out so far. - 52 Pickup (deal) 20:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Firefox gaps fixed 

message: Something has gone wrong within the last month or so. Diagrams which look OK on screen are now totally corrupted when you print them. The problem is visible with "Print Preview" so you don't need to waste paper to investigate this. Just perform "Print Preview" of this talk page, and flip through the pages until you find a diagram (the first is the "East West Line"). (I am using IE 6.0, other browsers might not have this problem.) Printing used to work OK about a month or so ago. --Dr Greg (talk) 12:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Page looks fine to me in print preview in both Firefox and MSie ... what sort of problem are you having? --77.101.73.67 (talk) 15:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with Dr, Greg. Using IE6, the diagrams on this page have a single indistinct route line, with nothing like the complexity seen in the HTML page view. Will try different browsers when I get home. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

text: I'd suggest GFDL, and that you relax a little. If it gets deleted it gets deleted. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Use , and provide a link to the image, rather than putting it directly into this talk (or where-ever). For example see :File:WP Screenshot - Infobox Uk Station.PNG which I used to discuss a problem once before. Tivedshambo (talk) 18:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

text: I suspect the problem is that IE6 does not handle SVG images correctly. It's not the RDT templates that are at fault. For example try print-previewing the contents panel on my user page. There have been various fixes in Wikipedia to correct this, but they don't seem to work for printing. You could try raising this on the technical village pump, but whether anything will get done I don't know. All I can suggest is printing from another browser - it seems to work ok with Firefox - or upgrading to IE7. Sorry I can't suggest anything more positive. Tivedshambo (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

text: All, this may be related to the PngFix script that makes them transparent for IE6, but I'm not sure until I get home. But since PngFix has been running for about 6 months now, it may not be the source of the problem.  — Edokter • Talk •  20:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Printing 

message: Could someone produce a hybrid of :File:BSicon ACC.svg and :File:BSicon TurmBHFo.svg, for a split-level station with disabled access please (unless one already exists and I haven't found it). See Smethwick Galton Bridge in Template:Birmingham-Worcester via Kidderminster. Many thanks. Tivedshambo (talk) 12:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. TurmBHFAo  – PeterCX&Talk 14:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great - now in use. Many thanks. Tivedshambo (talk) 17:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Another request...could someone please create disused versions of :File:BSicon kABZ3lg.svg, :File:BSicon kABZ3lf.svg, :File:BSicon kABZlg.svg and :File:BSicon kABZlf.svg. It's to create two triangular junctions on the Three Bridges Line. I've only succeeded in creating PNG equivalents which are on the Commons. Ravenseft (talk) 11:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One exists: exkABZ3lg ; others producing – PeterCX&Talk 14:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

text: Done. exkABZ3lf, exkABZlg, exkABZlf  – PeterCX&Talk 15:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Fantastic work - I can't thank you enough. Ravenseft (talk) 19:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Icon request 

message: There is a debate on Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Railways about the use of specific tram symbols on route diagram templates, and I thought it would be better to discuss it here. There have been a number of cases where the generic tram symbol (either :File:BSicon TRAM.svg or the  template) have been replaced with a specific logo. Personally I am opposed to this for two reasons:
*A logo may well be subject to free-use restrictions, and
*A logo will need to be clearly identified.
For example, see this template - a purple dot means nothing to most users. It has been suggested that a "hover over" tool-tip could be used, but this would not be suitable for printed versions, and relies on the user moving the mouse over the symbol in the first place. What do other users think? Tivedshambo (talk) 12:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In cases where the symbol is effectively permanent and always understood (eg TfL roundel) then it is possibly acceptable(subject to rights issues) whereas if the operator might change (most TOCs) then it would seem safer to use a generic. Hover tips aren't, imho, acceptable as makes presumptions on the user's browser, skill, etc. --AlisonW (talk) 13:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty certain the TfL roundel is copyright (see :File:Roundelfamily.jpg). I'll raise the matter of :File:Underground no-text.svg (which seems to have contradictory copyright/trademark information) on Commons. Tivedshambo (talk) 13:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tram symbols 

message: i figured a sandbox might be a nice idea for this, so i created one here. It comes from one in my userspace. Hope you like it and will participate! Jake the Editor Man  (talk) 14:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  sandbox 

message: I've posted my version of services to Heathrow Airport in my sandbox.  Take a look and comment.
Dkpintar (talk) 12:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct in places, very wrong in others! For one, doesn't show subsurface sections correctly, two is that the line from the GW into Heathrow is shared by the two current services, and three that the Piccadilly doesn't offer a connection from T4 5o T5. It also leaves off the Heathrow Airtrack proposals which are currently out for comment and should be built in the next few years (hence why the current route diagram one looks different!) --AlisonW (talk) 13:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Right you are.  My diagrams tend to be more simplistic, so a lot of things are not shown. [my bad......]. I've not read much on the airtrack proposals, but i will now.  Thanks. Dkpintar (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heathrow Services 

message: A user has raised a query at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains#Question about Line guide in Noarlunga Centre railway line, Adelaide regarding the appearance of 'leer' within certain diagrams.  Although the specific problem seems to have been resolved, it did raise the issue about usage of 'leer' in the diagrams. 
I have since noticed that hovering the cursor  over clear space in a diagram brings up the 'tooltip' showing "leer" or the name of the icon - this doesn't appear helpful, since the user is more likely to want some legend-type text rather than the icon filename.
Not sure that  anything can be done about this,, but thought I'd bring it up here, as the topic has not (obviously) been discussed previously
EdJogg (talk) 00:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  'King Leer 

message: (Due to the arguments in the above section,) in  templates, when calling 'leer' or when simply leaving out in the icon parameter, :File:BSicon .svg nor :File:BSicon leer.svg will not be called. Instead, that table cell is simply left empty, with dimensions of × by default. A row which used to have n icons would still occupy the spaces for n icons. One should be careful that, for example,  may appear as  or  if some icons were empty. Have not found error yet in my IE7.0.5730.13 and FF2.0.0.14. – PeterCX&Talk 16:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry reverted... I can't solve the display problem for collapsible tables... – PeterCX&Talk 17:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes on changes on [[Template:BS-overlap]] 

message: Based on reading up on things, i have made SIMPLE diagrams of what 
i foresee for services on  the future Central Line and with the proposed 
Chelsea-Hackney Line.  Just  ideas in my sandbox. Check it out 
please.Dkpintar (talk) 13:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your sandbox is empty... – PeterCX&Talk 13:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

text: the diagrams are up now; it took a bit of "tweaking" to get the best presentation.Dkpintar (talk) 16:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Central and Chelsea-Hackney Services 

message: There are also (3) styles of using the icons:
*"normal" one icon per table cell
*"overlay" overlaying (2) opaque icons (at least the top one with a transparent background) in the same table cell
*"half-width" - (2) icons which represent 1/2 a feature being placed side-by-side
I have not used the overlay feature - but I see where it can greatly reduce the number of icons needed:
many combination features can be done by overlaying a horizontal and vertical feature instead of creating separate icons for each,
and the difference between an overpass and an underpass is which is the primary icon and which is the overlay (swapping them produces the other feature). Even many other adjacent/non-intersecting features could be created by overlaying two icons. For instance many features (like switches) could be created by overlaying an icon which is just the "curved part" to a "normal" straight section.
LeheckaG (talk) 11:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a simple example overlaying Straight Horizontal/Vertical Red/Green icons:
LeheckaG (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overlays 

message: I have been pondering whether geographic coordinate templates can or should be placed in a route map?  Besides the route map icons, the (3) columns to the right are "Mileage", "Note1" and "Note2".  For the Alaska and Ohio route maps I have done, putting geographic coordinates in a route map would be a nice feature so that you can click on a coordinate and go to the GeoHack map page, or include  in the article which contains the route map, and click on "Map all coordinates", and see them all "push-pinned" on a Google map.  Thoughts?
LeheckaG (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel the coordinates would look better if they were left or right aligned in their own column.  I had tried them in the "Mileage" column but they "get in the way" between the map and the Station names.  They would probably be better flush right (the current coordinate template code overrides the column's flush right style). LeheckaG (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's an archived discussion on this subject somewhere. A user promoted it very fervently before, and I'm afraid my objection now is the same as it was then; co-ordinates are not easily human-readable, and make the table too wide. The idea of a schematic diagram is to show the relations of the parts of the line to one another, and not get hung up on the spatial geometry. Co-ordinates appear to confuse the issue too much. AlexTiefling (talk) 20:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is readability/width the primary objection?  Width could be dealt with by changing a Cascading Style Sheet (CSS) id or CSS class so that only a globe or another icon link is visible to go to the Wiki ToolServer/GeoHack page, but so that the coordinate numbers themselves are normally "hidden" unless asked for (something like collapsing tables - and ONLY if they asked for a.k.a. "Show", then they would "expand" or uncollapse to a size large enough to be clearly visible).  LeheckaG (talk) 21:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coordinates 

message: Is it possible to ask for a bridge icon? There is a situation on the CTRL, i'm not sure if it happens anywhere else, just after leaving St Pancras. The line enters a tunnel before going on a bridge. So it is a tunnel on a bridge (over the East Coast Main Line). Here is a satellite picture of this. Simply south (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: These may help: TUNNELa-ELEV  or TUNNELe-ELEV . -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 22:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unique icon 

message: I guess "corresponding" &c come from "Anschluss" which has wide meanings. The French (in their eternal must-be-different-ness) use "correspondance" for a connection in a journey.  "Connection" seems a more idiomatic translation.--SilasW (talk) 21:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Connection" 

message: I do not know how many create Route maps by hand versus how many use "Spoorstrip.exe" (Spoorstrip a t GMail.Com), I do not use it so I do not know what it can or cannot do. Specifically:
* When new route map icons are uploaded to Commons; if, how, or when does Spoorstrip change?
* Does Spoorstrip handle overlays?
* Does Spoorstrip handle "all" the various BS templates (I guess they go up to 8 icons plus: Mileage, Note1 and Note2) and their alternate "-2" format which drops the Mileage and places Note1 and Note2 on opposite sides of the map strip) ?
LeheckaG (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: i used spoorstrip when i was just starting in diagramming. i found you could make all sorts of icons on your own to fit what you needed, but they would only work in the spoortstrip template.  the originator did not not seem to interested in expanding and fixing his icons; i made an attempt to do so, which i would have shared with others, but it got to be too big a job (now i know how alisonW must feel).  so now  i have learned to use the BS/wiki icons more effectively and have left spoorstrip in a file somewhere. dkpintar82.24.135.204 (talk) 15:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just got a [new] copy of the spoorstrip program.  i have not looked at it in detail, but, again, there are too many icons for motorway and navigation.  although some of the icons in green can be of value to our wiki diagramming.  i'll do a comparison of an older version with the new and give you the results. Dkpintar (talk) 06:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoorstrip 

message: The rules="all" html attribute used in Template:Railway line header is causing html table borders to show in the Opera 9.5 browser, and I believe it can be removed without any other adverse effect. Please see Template talk:Railway line header for further explaination and to comment. Thanks →Ollie (talk • contribs) 01:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One thing to add, since template:RLH has been protected and sysops declined the unprotect request. In order to modify the template, most of us should express agreement in the template:RHL talk page to justify the edit request in wikipedia:request for page protection. If you want to examine the effect of removing rules=all, you may check my  which has been created for including the RDT in the infobox correctly. Examples such as Sochi Light Metro and Seattle Center Monorail. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 03:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This change has now been made. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 22:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues with [[Template:Railway line header]] 

message: Please help me to find the correct title for these 4 new ones:
   
Thanks in advance. - Erik Baas (talk) 14:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem solved, thanks to Axpde on commons. - Erik Baas (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New icons... 

message: I translated the Kochelseebahn article from de.wikipedia, including the height data that required a new template, but the table doesn't display properly. In particular there are grey cells around the icons and words which shouldn't appear. Can anyone help? I intend to translate a lot more, so need to get this right from the word go.
Also the original German header colour didn't copy across properly. Less of an issue, but it would be nice if it were the same. --Bermicourt (talk) 17:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed the first line of the diagram from {| class="prettytable float-right" align=right to {| . Seem to work now. --Stewart (talk) 18:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Kochelseebahn]] table not displaying properly 

message: I have revised row templates including all BS#, BS#-startCollapsible and BS#-2. The change will not affect the existing route diagrams. But now you have the option to include both full-wide (square) and half-wide (rectangular) icons in 1 row with the correct scaling to you preference. It's similar to the overlay parameter but the width for the icon in (left) first column is still named PX. PX2 for column 2, PX3 column 3, etc. If PX(1) parameter is filled but PX# blanked, that PX# will apply to the PX input. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 16:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added syntax: multiple icon widths within 1 row 

message: , reproduced on the right, looks to me like a dog's dinner. Could I invite someone familiar enough with its construction to fettle it? thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As a non-English native speaker, I don't comprehend your true thoughts behind the phrases "dog's dinner" and "to fettle." Please specify your need. If you prefer to narrow the template, simply move the "Newcastle and Berwick Railway" to the next row and remove the "towards". -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 06:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help needed on Template:Alnwick branch line 

message: Is it possible to add an Edit option to the headers so you can edit a line diagram directly? Railwayfan2005 (talk) 18:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: We could change the [view] bit to show . ChrisDHDR 14:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes please!!! Railwayfan2005 (talk) 08:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done (after one slip though!). ChrisDHDR 09:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [Edit] on diagrams