Talk:Punk rock/Archive 2

message: what are they classfide nobody else has that sound of punk
not totally unclassifiable. they belong somewhere in there with King Missile, Barnes and Barnes, early "Weird Al" Yankovic, select Mr. T Experience songs (like the hidden song on the "my stupid life" side of the "tapin' up my heart" 7".), Green Jellÿ, and others bands. This might be labeled "funny punk" although i've never heard that before but someone put up the article (it wasnt me!). These groups are also forebearers for the comedy of blink-182 style pop punk. Xsxex 18:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard of "funny punk" before. It could be made up (which happens a lot here). I'll search google. The Ungovernable Force 08:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just as I thought, it's not a notable genre (less than 17,400 hits on google and most that I saw are unrelated). Before listing for AFD I'm going to ask the creator, since they're a good editor. Maybe they can clarify. The Ungovernable Force 08:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Dead Milkmen]] 

message: Firstly how can you have a punk rcok article without mentioning NOFX? The most influential and successfull of the "new school" punk rock bands. Also there should be greater detail on the new punk rock of the 90's. (anon, unsigned, 30 Jan 2005)
* Well add it then!!!!! quercus robur 18:11, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newschool/Oldschool 

message: Jmabel you keep deleting the link I added for punkomatik.com. This site is new but its goal is to unite local punk scenes. The point of wiki is that no one decision is made by one person, Why not let the rest of the punk community have a chance to decide. (User:Sschopp, unsigned, March 17, 2005)
: I see nothing encyclopedic about this link. Last I looked, the calendar showed no punk shows happening in Seattle, LA, or San Fransicco in March; it looks like little more than the framework for a site. Also, last I checked Sschopp's sole contributions to Wikpedia have consisted of efforts to add this site. This looks like self-interested linkspam.
:Still, I have now reverted it several times; I won't be the next to do so, but if others agree with me, they should. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:31, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
I concur with Jmabel ; please do not restore that link. If at some point in the future it becomes an encylopedic source of info about punk rock activity, we can reconsider it.  BTfromLA 18:36, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punk Site... 

message: I find it hard to believe that throughout the entire article there was no reference to the power chord... All the bits about 'three chords' should give guitarists the general idea, but don't you think that a link to the power chord article would be appropriate in this article? Punk rock basically ruined classic rock (not necessarily a bad thing) because they opened up a gate for people who only needed to memorize three hand positions.
*Well, this article has shaped up to be primarily a general origin and history rather than a musical analysis, but if you think that you can create a useful paragraph or two of musical analysis, including a link to power chord, then go for it.  Remember, anyone can edit.   Soundguy99 18:27, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Power Chord? 

message: I made some additions to the section on punk of the 90s and today. I added information on the Epitaph Records/Gilman Street-fueled skate-punk craze of the mid-90s, the brief ska-punk revival of the later 90s, how Bush and Blair have become to today's political punks what Reagan and Thatcher were to yesterday's (i.e. PunkVoter and Rock Against Bush), a bit on how the Internet and filesharing have affected the DIY aspect of today's punk, and many of the controversial issues surrounding punk now, ex. whether or not you can sign to a major label and be on MTV while still being considered punk.
I also changed the wording of the last little bit lamenting that punk has become more of a fashion statement than a genuine counterculture, since while that is an unignorable debate in current times, I thought it was phrased a little too overdramatically for an encyclopedia article.
Lastly, regarding the current emo trend: I don't listen to emo, so I could be wrong (hence why this is on the Talk Page) but I'm quite certain that emo has been around since the 80s, albeit in a different form, and isn't just a term conjured up by the media to create another fad. While the emo bands of today are often dismissed as being just a fad for angsty teenagers, I don't think the genre itself was begun as a media-hyped trend. Inanechild 14:59, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additions to 90's punk 

message: The following anonymous remark was recently placed at the top of the page. I've moved it down here and added a pseudo-sig. I don't claim to know the point of the remark. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:47, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
:NNPOV:
:Punk quickly became more accessible to the average person, amid complaints from underground punk fans that, by being signed to major labels and appearing on MTV, these bands were buying into the system that punk was created to rebel against, and as a result, could not be considered true punk. This debate continues with the popularity of pop-punk in the early 2000s, and the emo trend of recent times.
:?  (anon 3 May 2005)
::To the anonymous commenter: I wouldn't consider that not NPOV. It would be ridiculous to pretend as though these debates over what's punk and what's not don't happen. Inanechild 22:14, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Anonymous comment

message: Allow me to fuss over trivia for a moment: the Flamin' Groovies were the top billed act and, I think, the last to perform at that famous show.  That they were upstaged is clear.  So the Stranglers were third on the bill, if we want to be precise.  As long as I'm fussing, I'm pretty sure that the '76 version of the Groovies was totally a Cyril Jordan project, and Roy Loney was no longer with the group.  
A more significant question about the article is how to accurately describe the migration of the term punk from the sixties garage bands to the CBGB's scene to the Pistols/UK scene.  This probably involves describing the evolving distinction(s) between punk and new wave, which is a bit knotty.  BTfromLA 30 June 2005 07:00 (UTC)
:I think you are right about the Stranglers coming on last, but I'm pretty sure you are wrong about Loney no longer being with the Groovies. Damn, though, it's scary that I can't remember firmly. Oh, well, like they say about the Sixties, if you can remember, then you weren't really there. There must be a solid account of that show by someone who wrote things down at the time instead of trying to remember in middle age.
:I'm pretty certain that circa '77 the term "New Wave" for music wasn't even around. "Pub rock" covered people like Nick Lowe, Elvis Costello, and Alex Harvey. -- Jmabel | Talk July 1, 2005 06:12 (UTC)
::A quick search (see  and ) seems to confirm that Loney left the band in 1971 or '72, right after "Teenage Head."  And, to clarify, my recollection of 7/4/76 is: Stranglers took the stage first, then Ramones, finally Groovies.  That is certainly the way the were billed.  If I searched through my old magazines, I could probably come across a contemporary review of the show.  
::As it happens, I was sorting through some such zines recently, and came across a self-described "intellectual rock 'n' roll magazine" from 1978 called Terminal Zone. It categorized the Ramones, Sex Pistols, Talking Heads, Wire, Patti Smith, Pere Ubu, XTC, etc. all as "new wave."  "Punk" was not an option, though they do talk about "punk-rock" in some detail in a longer discussion of the Sex Pistols later in the issue. Basically, they seem to treat "punk rock" as a sub-genre of "new wave," and I think this was a fairly common perception at the time, at least from the US POV.  I'm not at all sure that the idea that "new wave" was purely a marketing invention by Seymour Stein is accurate.
::By the way, the magazine's other categories for recent records included "A little Art, sans Linkletter", including Eno, Ferry, Bowie, Kraftwwerk, Cale, Hawkwind..., "Rock 'n' Roll, holdover division," with Rolling stones, Dylan, Beach Boys, Johansen, Groovies, Lou Reed... "Pop, Power, Pure and otherwise," Elton John, Dwight Twilley, Abba, Generation X, Joan Armatrading... "Pure Product for the Manipulated Masses" Debby Boone, Fleetwood Mac, John Denver, Dolly Parton...  --BTfromLA 1 July 2005 17:52 (UTC)
It was indeed a Flamin' Groovies gig; Stranglers up first, then The Ramones, then the Groovies. All three groups reconvened the following night just down the road at Dingwalls, Camden Lock. I think this was rather hastily organised; I don't remember any publicity but word of mouth. At the Roundhouse, Joey started The Ramones' set by shouting something along the lines of "We're The Ramones, and you better shut up!", followed by absolute silence. The was no power to anybody's amplifier at all. I don't know exactly what went wrong but I do remember it took an age to get it fixed.BTLizard 10:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roundhouse '76 nitpicking, etc. 

message: Nirvana is not punk rock. Kurt has even explicity said that they were not punk. In the booklet inside With the Lights Out there is even a mention saying that Nirvana were labeled punk by critics who didn't know what punk was. Jobe6 05:37, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Nirvana is definately not punk, nirvana is grunge...grunge is the FUSION of punk,hard rock and metal...get it right kiddies... (anon - but of course - 13 Aug 2005)
Nirvana is a grunge band. They are FAR from punk. TearAwayTheFunerealDress 15:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nirvana, Punk eh NO 

message: I had an issue with the often-asserted belief restated in the paragraph:
The term was coined by rock critic Dave Marsh, who used it to describe the music of ? and the Mysterians in the May 1971 issue of Creem magazine. The term was adopted by many rock music journalists in the early 1970s. For example, in the liner notes of the 1972 anthology album Nuggets, critic and guitarist Lenny Kaye uses the term "punk-rock" to refer to the Sixties "garage rock" groups, as well as some of the darker and more primitive practitioners of 1960s psychedelia. Shortly after the time of those notes, Lenny Kaye formed a band with avant-garde poet Patti Smith. Smith's group, and her first album, Horses, released in 1975, directly inspired many of the mid-1970s punk rockers, so this suggests a path by which the term migrated to the music we now know as punk.
This is not, in fact, the origin of the term.  Rather, as the other portions of the "punk rock" entry suggest, the term was first applied to garage rock in contradistinction to "punk rock" as such.  My interactions with Dave Marsh personally have convinced me that his knowledge of punk rock is limited, and I do not believe he intended to apply the term in the manner suggested by the paragraph quoted above.  
In addition, there are competing claims to coining the term.  Such as the creators of Punk Magazine, who discuss this in the book "Please Kill Me".  
In short, I believe the quote paragraph (in using the word "suggest") indicated that the proferred history of the term is at best speculative, and furthermore is the subject of competing claims of origin.  I suggest the quoted paragraph should be deleted.  I think it's indicative of many changes needed in this entry, which I believe innacurately suggests the origins of the musical genre (e.g., by ignoring bands like The Stooges, Rocket From the Tombs, and many of the influences of punk rock like French poet Arthur Rimbaud, the Beats, etc. etc.).
:I think you are misreading the paragraph--nowhere does it imply that Marsh wanted to apply the term to the Sex Pistols, etc.  The the application of the term to an ongoing scene by Punk magazine is acknowleged elsewhere in the article, and if you want to beef up the section on historical precidents, I don't see how cutting this paragraph servs that end.  I really don't understand what you disagree with here.  BTfromLA 16:41, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of the term 

message: I think The Misfits are misplaced in the opening paragraph, since (1) they were largely derivative of the other bands listed with them and (2) they were little-known and not influential outside the US, until the late 1980s at least. Grant65 (Talk) 14:31, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
:I agree--it's a stretch to include them in the first generation.  BTfromLA 16:32, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The Misfits in the first paragraph?

message: I think the Stooges really solidified everything it means to be a Punk band (coming from gritty (Detroit/Chicago not wimpy Seattle) and they were the first ones to do this extremley. I can see The Sonics as a starting point. Interesting how Punk came back around to Seattle with Nirvana but then these bands were the best I think. Shouldn't American Idiot be up there and its cover? Pretty good right or no?
It's funny how America invented Punk Rock and Britain invented Heavy metal music. I am more of a Heavy Metal man myself. More the standard fare but we all love Sex Pistols and Misfits which contributed greatly to Thrash metal music. Now the Metal scene needs to produce a Rock opera. Judas Priest 'Angel of Retribution' is close.
Also interesting how Green Day is from very Liberal San Francisco. So that's why they put out such a political album now. (anon 10 Aug 2005)
:The Stooges were certainly very important in the early scene, as major influences on folks like the Ramones, who directly or indirectly inspired nearly every punk act since. But, of course, if you look closely the antecedents go much further back than that, I would argue all the way to Link Wray and the Wraymen, who really deserve a passing mention and a link in this article FAR more than most of the bands that are mentioned.   Arker 23:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd favor a mention of Link Wray. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Stooges 

message: I believe this line should be revised or deleted:</br>
Epitaph Records, an independent record label started by Brett Gurewitz of Bad Religion, would become the home of the "skate punk" sound, characterized by bands like Pennywise, NOFX, The Offspring, and blink-182.</br>
The four bands mentioned in this line don't fit well with the "skate punk" label. The bands mentioned in the skate punk article should be used as refrence instead (JFA, Circle Jerks, Black Flag, Dr. Know, Faction, etc.)Also, I've always believed Epitaph to be a pop-punk label, better skate-punk examples would be Mystic Records or Spontaenous Combustion.</br>
ThisOrder 02:55, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A bit outside of my musical expertise, but yes, I would identify your list more with skate punk than the list in the article. I suggest you edit accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:17, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

text: This may be a generational issue: skate punk in the 1990s was identified closely with bands like NOFX and Pennywise, and by that time bands like Black Flag were seen as "old-school hardcore". --Delirium 13:44, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Could well be; I'm certainly one of "the old guys" (or old-school guys) on this page. So can we reword to be inclusive of both? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:05, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Skate-Rock Line 

message: I think these edits by User:81.103.219.167 are a mixed bag. Some seem arbitrary, just substitutions of one minor band or piece of near-trivia for another, and I will leave it to others to decide what to do with them. One is a correction: somehow, in one place Sex Pistols had been changed to Sex . The addition of Jon Savage's England's Dreaming to the references is welcome. One thing I am reverting: in the mention of glam rock influences on punk, Gary Glitter was far more of an influence than David Bowie. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mixed bag of edits 

message: Emo bands are such stupid american bands. High pitched whining vioces crying about how crap their life is. blah blah blah. i have no girlfriend. blah blah blah. i just got 2 billion us from my record company. blah blah blah. the sex pistols rule them all. and, i agree with the other guy. nirvana is not a punk band. they suck penis. full stop.
How did we get on the discussion of Emo bands on a punk discussion. Whoa...that was random! TearAwayTheFunerealDress 16:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  EMO 

message: If you're going to have a visual for punk at the top of the page it shouldn't be like the one that's there.  The studded jacket/mohawk trend tends to mislead people unfamiliar with punk into thinking that people have always followed that image since the mid 70s.  There really is no one image for punk but it would be better to have an image of punk in its "first wave", since that has the most relevence to the top paragraph.
And HOLY FUCK where are the Dead Kennedys???? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.139.176.4 (talk • contribs) 11 Oct 2005.
: Mentioned in passing in the section on Punk attitudes and fashion, but I think they deserve more prominent mention. Probably the most influential U.S. politically oriented punk bands, especially if one looks at influence beyond the punk/hardcore scene itself. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:11, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, that's allright by me. Postcards can be as punk as any of them - I don't consider it misleading, if people want more indepth information on how to 'look like a real punk'(what are you guys smoking?), they can check the punk rock fashion wikis. Tias 07:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Apart from that its also a possible copyvio image, in fact it looks just like one of those postcards thats just been scanned in. I've got lots of photos of 'real' punks, when I get time maybe I'll scan one of these and replace this image. quercus robur 09:46, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, allright. Appreciated if you did! Tias 08:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Yeah they do look like 'postcard punks' or fashion victims rather than 'real' punks quercus robur 07:03, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image at the top of the page 

message: Do the Plugz really merit mention in the article? I'm all for recognizing Chicano music, which I'm guessing was the reason for inclusion, but is it at all useful to mention this not terribly well known band in a list, without giving any context as to why they might be worthy of mention? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Plugz 

message: "Punk Metal (also known as "Crossover")": is there any basis for this? Any crossing of audiences can be called "crossover" (and usually a mix of genres is called a "fusion" not a "crossover"). Is there any basis to suggest that "Crossover" is a name used for punk metal, rather than punk metal just being an example of a crossover or fusion of genres? If so, this should be cited. If not, the parenthetical remark should be removed. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:09, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I can confirm that back in the mid to late 1980s, some people did refer to metal/punk as "Crossover". I think it was mainly used by folks on the metal side of the fence, not so much by punks; Iron Maiden fans who discovered the joys of Discharge and COC. I'm sure it's been a very long time since anyone used the term in this way (along with "metalcore") but it's legitimate. Druff 00:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punk metal 

message: At the end of the Los Angeles/Orange County remarks: "A rivalry between the Los Angeles punk scene and O.C. scene took place in the 1980s.  Unity is has now been bandage." The last sentence is simply incomprehensible to me, can someone please clarify? And the one before that strikes me as a dubious generalization, at the very least requiring citation. If no one fixes this in the next 48 hours or so, I'll probably remove it. -- 03:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Unity is has now been bandage." 

message: I THINK THAT THE PUNK, MORE THAN BE A FASHION IS A CULTURE OR LIFE STYLE........PUNK NOT DEAD .... THE PUNK LIVES FOR EVER.... FROM:GaBo_PuNk_284
:I have a badge- given to me by Dick Lucas of Citizen Fish/Pubhumans (and yer don't get alot older than that... unless yer Charlie Harper)- it reads "Old punks never die- they just stand at the back"... quercus robur 00:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A CULTURE 

message: i was wondering if anyone could give me some information on the connections between punk rock and free jazz.  i have heard that some original punk bands (the clash, the sex pistols, the dead kennedys, etc.) can trace their roots back to the original jazz movements.  Does anyone have more information on that?
:Free jazz and punk have similar sensibilities in my opinion, Albert Ayler, Archie Shepp, etc were making noise with a really punk edge right back in the sixties! There must have been many at the more creative and imaginative edge of the early punk movement who were aware of these sort of antecedents... Heres some examples;
*Crass definately had free jazz influences, these are explicit now with the post-Crass project Last Amendment, but were always there if you knew how to listen to them. 
*John Lydon had very wide ranging musical tastes, he cited Captain Beefheart and Can (not quite free jazz, but cetainly musically left-field) as influences right back in the early days of punk, much to the annoyance of Malcolm McLaren, who wanted the public to think of him as an uncultured yob.
*The Slits also had free jazz connections, working with free improvisers like Steve Beresford. I also remember seeing memebers of the Slits in the audience at a London Derek Bailey concert in the late 70s.
*The Damned did a gig or 2 with free jazzer Lol Coxhill, he also apears on their second album.
*The Pop Group worked with cello improviser Tristan Honsinger, as well as The Last Poets and others- theres some 'free jazz' moments on both of their first 2 albums.
*In more recent years John Zorn has utilised many elements of punk into his work.
quercus robur 20:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This morning BBC radio had a story about the history of punk. It might have been called "History of Punk" but I can't find it on the web site. It said Iggy Pop and others studied blues but felt there was something wrong with ripping off blues singers so instead he should copy the essence of the music but do there own thing. He then gave some examples of how punk did not used the traditional blues riffs. --Gbleem 08:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  punk and jazz 

message: I'd like to start off by saying to everyone you've written a great history of Punk Rock but there's little in the article said about the actual style and structure of punk, you could read the whole article and still not recognise a punk song if it hit you in the face.
So I'm adding a part of my own, and I want everyone to feel free to edit, add to, change, slash and/or burn what I've written if you have a legitimate reason to contradict me, write something I've omitted etc.
Thanks.
(Justinboden86 22:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style and Structure 

message: Recently added, I am reverting: "(although it must be noted that the Ramones were more conservative, and that Johnny Ramone, the true founder of the band, was a hardcore conservative and avidly supported the US Republican Party.)" This replaced my reference to the "nihilistic humor" of their early lyrics. 
# Yes, Johnny Ramone was a conservative, probably most precisely a right libertarian domestically and a pro-military unilateralist internationall. Joey Ramone, on the other hand, was your basic New York Jewish social liberal. They were not, by any account, the best of friends, but they stayed in a band together and, remarkably, each played even on the other's political songs. Most remarkably, Johnny seems to have willingly performed "The KKK Took My Baby Away" even though it was almost certainly about him! 
# In the context of talking about the style and structure of early punk, Johnny's (or Joey's) politics are not relevant. Early Ramones songs were not political. They were nihilistic. "Beat on the Brat (with a baseball bat)", "Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue", "Teenage Lobotomy": how much more nihilistic can humor get? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ramones 

message: Wasn't it John Lydon who called what the stadium-bands were doing "bombastic rock"?
--24.221.8.253 06:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  bombastic rock 

message: Removed newly inserted sentence;
Many UK street punk bands like The Exploited, G.B.H., Blitz, Abrasive Wheels, UK Subs, to name a few, influenced many bands and punx today.
as it seems to have been plonked at random in the middle of a paragraph discussing a totally different genre (ie, 'metal crossover punk', eg, Amebix, etc, rather than 'street punk', eg, GBH, Blitz, etc.) maybe it can be worked in somewhere else, but not in this particular paragraph quercus robur 23:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: random comment removed

message: The persistent re-insertion of Jimi LaLumia & the Psychotic Frogs, removal of CBGB, etc., by anonymous editors from a variety of anonymous IP addresses—I have to presume that this is actually a single individual editing from a variety of addresses—is clearly against consensus, and, given the failure even to give any explanations here on the talk page, is absolutely inappropriate. It is beginning to border on vandalism. I believe that BT and I are probably prepared to revert this until hell freezes over, if necessary, but would appreciate if others also help, since each of us usually only checks this page once or twice a day. Or, if someone actually thinks this edit is correct, please make a case for it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Will try to keep an eye on this as well quercus robur 10:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

text: This guy is making a lot of edits on the entry for Disco Demolition Night. I admit I don't know much about obscure punk bands. How important where the Psychotic Frogs? Ace-o-aces 13:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not at all. Remembered only because Johnny Thunders played with them. But none of what Thunders is remembered for was with this band. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I see Jimi LaLumia has his own page now. Maybe this will keep our friend busy for a while. Ace-o-aces 13:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits against consensus