Category talk:Soviet spies

message: Should defectors really count as spies?  That seems pretty bizarre to me, should we call Albert Einstein and Enrico Fermi American spies?  What about the thousands of people who left East Germany for the West?  Are they all West German spies?  Lots of famous people defected from the Soviet Union to the USA, if this definition made any sense wouldn't there be a category:American spies?  We could put Detroit Red Wing Sergei Fedorov on it.  Maybe he brought secret Soviet hockey tape technology with him...  The problem could probably be solved by creating a category for defectors from and to the USSR, and purging anyone from this list who wasn't known to be a spy. Flying fish 00:27, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've pointed out consitently that "spy" is more of a Hollywood & fictional term, and there is a need for better classifiication.  The proposals now to add "alleged", or "accused", likewise are ill advised, as that now necessitiates placing Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer within the group that the NSA identified and the FBI concluded were spies.  Such is the status of the debate when partisan extremists become recognized "expert" contributors to Wikipedia.  nobs 18:48, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "to the satisfaction of some scholars" - which scholars?  This is not a good category to be ambiguous about.  Point 8 from Wikipedia:Categorization says Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category.  I really think that this category should at minimum be split into spies and defectors.  Flying fish 23:21, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a long history of dispute concerning this and related pages. The page has already been split. See: :Category:Accused Soviet spies. Many names are relatively uncontroversial, others are still controversial. see: Significance of Venona.--Cberlet 00:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, that's a good move.  The last thing I would suggest is that a category of defectors be created (for both sides), and that people who defected without spying be removed from this list. Flying fish 17:34, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea -- but I am in the middle of struggling over the Significance of Venona material.--Cberlet 19:21, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Come now, these individuals were either convicted, confessed, or massive ammounts of information has come to light proving thier guilt. DTC 18:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The sources you list don’t say "probable", "might be", "suspected", they categorically and unequivocal say that they were guilty. DTC 19:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet there is still a debate over Alger Hiss in some academic circles, so why is his name on this page?--Cberlet 21:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless someone is convicted, or confesses, they are only "accused", regardless of how much information there is to support the accusation. -Will Beback 22:04, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition