Talk:List of Azerbaijanis

message: I think this article need to be protected for a while until this POV pushing by Iranians calms down. Baku87 18:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Procection 

message: Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe Anoosheh Ansari is an Azeri and only the media of the republic of Azerbaijan said this.  She is from Mashhad and she does not speak any Azeri.    Unfortunately Chehregani's group put a false information that she was born from Tabrizi parents in Tehran and then the media of the republic of Azerbaijan promogulated it. 
According to the following sources she speaks Persian, French and English:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/science/space/12tourist.html?_r=1&ref=science&oref=slogin
 
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/09/141fd0f7-8cf3-45e0-83e4-d534dc4ea152.html
and when I checked her blog, Persian and English and French music was mentioned but didn't find Azeri.  This was the information I found in a website that first claimed she is Azerbaijani: Ənuşe Ənsarinin atası doktor Ənsari Dünya Azərbaycanlıları Konqresinin 1997-ci ildə keçirilən ilk qurultayının iştirakçılarından olub. Bundan başqa Güneydə tanınmış nəsildən olan doktor Ənsari Azərbaycanda biznes fəaliyyətilə məşğul olmaq və sərmayə yatırmaq üçün müxtəlif sahələrlə tanışlıq məqsədilə dəfələrlə ölkəmizə səfər edib. .  The information is obviously wrong!, since her last name is not ansari, but Ra'isian and Ansari is her husbands name.  I'll just put a fact there until it becomes clear perhaps later on.  --alidoostzadeh 21:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anoosheh Ansari 

message: If that's true, then it's similar to the situation of the Arvanites and Aromanians (who consider themselves amongst the proudest Greeks with certain linguistic/cultural traits - the current Greek President, Mr Karolos Papoulias is of Aromanian origin), and the Pomaks, who consider themselves Bulgarian speaking Turks (in Greece at least).--Tekleni 22:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really.. For majority of Azerbaijanis in Iranian, Iranian identity is part of Azerbaijani identity and vice versa.  it is not like Turks in Bulgaria or Armenians in Turkey. --alidoostzadeh 22:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I said. The groups I mentioned consider their separate language and culture as traits of their identity and not a separate ethnicity.--Tekleni 23:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see no point in adding additional and unsourced paragraphs to the intro. There's no accurate survey on what most of Iranian Azeris consider themselves, so any such statements are POV and original research. The original line clearly stated: The list includes both ethnic Azerbaijanis and members of other ethnicities from the region. I think that the way it should remain. Inclusion in the list does not mean that the person is an ethnic Azeri, if you check the names from the Republic of Azerbaijan, you'll see that many are Christian or Jew, and no one claims that they are ethnic Azeris (i.e. persons like Max Black, Lev Landau, Gavril Ilizarov, etc). If Khagani or anyone else was not Turk, it is OK, this is just a list of famous people from the region, regardless of their ethnicity. I don't understand what the problem is here. I restore the original version of the intro, and I think it should remain like that. Otherwise please cite your authoritative sources and explain why the original intro should be changed. Grandmaster 05:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not a POV to include many of the people were not linguistically Turkic speakers. Shams Tabrizi for example and many of the poets and other scholars I mentioned and Babak Khorramdin.. It is important to bring this to account, because by just mentioning "Azeri and others", that is not giving the true weight of culture of the land.  The article is called List of Azerbaijanis which is not necessarily a correct name and the term Azerbaijani is undefined here(from Azerbaijan, Azerbaijani Turkic speaker or both).  I do not think adding the fact that many  of the people were Iranic speaking before the turkification of the area is POV, it is just really a simple fact that kind of shows the history of the region.  It is important to mention this as part of the heritage of Azerbaijan since Medes, Achaemenids, Parthians, Sassanids, various Iranic or Iranic speaking dynasties held sway: Shaddadid, Rawwadid, Shervanshahs...and even today there is a large number of Kurds and Talyshes in Azerbaijan.  I do agree adding stuff that is political in nature is usually always POV, but the historical fact can not be considered POV.  --alidoostzadeh 16:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: GM, honestly, you need to stop your POV push on this and other articles.Khosrow II 20:10, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Such "lists of..." are usually based on nationality and nationality alone, the Iranian Azeris shouldn't even be on this list. I propose that we create a "List of Iranian Azerbaijanis" and move all the Iranian personalities there and add a disclaimer here that "This article is about the citizens of Republic of Azerbaijan. For Iranian Azerbaijanis, see list of Iranian Azerbaijanis". As it is, this list seems like a POV fork to label many Iranian citizens and personalities as those of Republic of Azerbaijan --ManiF 21:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, not at all - please see List of Kurdish people. ALL Kurds have a different nationality, so it is never a question of nationality, it is always case by case.. Baristarim 01:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've clarified the nationality of the Iranian Azeris to avoid any potential confusion regarding their citizenship. --ManiF 16:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, no problems - if it is needed, all the nationalities of the people mentioned should be included, and maybe divided into sub-sections - coz, I am assuming, that there might be famous Azeris who have Russian citizenship, European etc... Don't want to get into the dispute of how that will be done however. Baristarim 19:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not simply add nationalities that are associated with countries these people mostly lived and worked in (without trying to figure out, which country officially granted them citizenship)? This should work, as long as it's done conscientiously (previously people added nationalities for some people according to their personal assumptions; that is, if a person's lastname didn't end in -ov or -ev, they'd just mark him or her as Iranian - let's try to avoid that.) Parishan 01:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  That bit about the self-id. of Azeris in Iran 

message: Nosrati is not Azeri and he's not from the region either. He's a Kurd. Look on his wikipage, there is an interview he has with an Iranian magazine in it. In the interview he says he is a Kurd. Nokhodi 22:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good thing you brought it up. It must be changed, talk to the admin who protected the page.Khosrow II 01:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mohammad Nosrati

message: Isnt Sami Yusuf also Azeri? Why isnt he on the list? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.146.213.29 (talk) 23:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sami Yusuf 

message: why to delete sulkevich's name from the list? he was the first chief of staff of azeri army and was killed in this land protecting it from the soviets, he gave his life for this land and so his name must be included! why to include oldest naturaelized iranian azerbaijan and rza shah pehlevi enemy of azerbaijanians in this list but exclude sulkevich who died for this land? Elsanaturk 21:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the naturalized Iranian American happened to be ethnic Azeri, whereas Sulkevich wasn't. He could have also been included if he had been born in Azerbaijan, but that wasn't the case: his birthplace was Belarus where he lived most of his life. Parishan 21:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sulkevich 

message: Many of the Iranians listed here were not born in Iranian Azerbaijan, but rather other places in Iran, so I changed Iranian Azerbaijan to Iran. Also, Safi ad din was not Azeri, and Iraj Mirza was listed twice, so I removed those.Hajji Piruz 04:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also reorganized the article, put all the Iranians in one section and everyone from the Republic of Azerbaijan in another section.Hajji Piruz 15:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No one claims that they are Azeri. This is a list of prominent people from Azerbaijan regardless of ethnicity. --Grandmaster 16:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits

message: I just saw this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Azerbaijan
it got its own list of Azeri musicians, maybe they could be inserted in this page?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.213.29 (talk) 21:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion 

message: Garry Kasparov his mother was Armenian and his dad was Jewish however this doesnt make Garry Kasparov himself Jewish but rather Azerbaijani because in Judaism the Jewish heritage can only be passed through the mother, so Garry Kasparov is of Armenian/Azerbaijani decent. Baku87 (talk) 11:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Garry Kasparov Jewish or Azerbaijani ? 

message: I did some minor editing to the article. 
1) Added Iraq (Fizuli, Nasimi and etc.) would not be from the republic of Azerbaijan.  Actually Nasimi in the sense of geneology,was a Seyyed (descendant of the Prophet), but I kept him.  So I added a section on Iraq.  
2) Qadi Burhan al-Din was born in Anatolia.  So I added a section on Anatolia.  Although Encyclopedia of Islam does not really mention Nasimi, Fizuli or Qadi Burhan al-Din az Azeris but uses other terms.  But since he wrote in a dialect that is close to modern Azerbaijani, I think that is sufficient here.  The section on Anatolia can be expanded to include other famous Azerbaijanis from Turkey.
 
3)  Nezami is controversial.  "C. A. (Charles Ambrose) Storey and Franço de Blois (2004), “Persian Literature - A Biobibliographical Survey: Volume V Poetry of the Pre-Mongol Period.”, RoutledgeCurzon; 2nd revised edition (June 21, 2004). Pg 363: “Nizami Ganja’i, whose personal name was Ilyas, is the most celebrated native poet of the Persians after Firdausi. His nisbah designates him as a native of Ganja (Elizavetpol, Kirovabad) in Azerbaijan, then still a country with an Iranian population..".  
I.M. Dyakonoff (1915- 1999). The Book of Memoirs, Publisher: (European House), Sankt Petersburg, Russia, 1995 (Russian). excerpt pg 730-731: "There were slight problems with Nizami - first of all he was not Azeri but Persian (Iranian) poet, and though he lived in presently Azerbaijani city of Ganja, which, like many cities in the region, had Iranian population in Middle Ages.  I am not claiming these authors are right or wrong, but it controversial, so I kept it out.  It should be noted that the formation of Azerbaijani language and ethnicity came later than the 12th century .   
4) Shah Ismail I, the ethnicity is disputed, but I kept him for making contribution to Azerbaijani literature.  Note the most prominent Safavid history, Roger Savory states: "From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry as it is sometimes claimed.".  However he was wrongly put under Azerbaijan SSR.  But he is under the territory of modern Iran and not the republic of Azerbaijan and since he made contributions to Azerbaijani Turkish, he is an Azerbaijani poet and so I am not going to bring the Safavids disputes here (although technically I can but I am interested for keeping calm due to last week and have good will).  However that is a sign of good will here.
5) Sa'eb Tabrizi is hard to say, although 99% of his output is in Persian, Azerbaijani Turkish was also widely used in Safavid empire and he has some poems in that.  But I have not seen any reliable data identifying him as native Turkophone.  Note Tabriz in the 15th/16th century was not yet completely Turkified in speech.  So I left him out.
6) Parvin 'Etesami while born in Tabriz is originally from Ashtiyan in Iran and her father is a famous person is his own right.  She is not really ethnic Azerbaijani but was born in Tabriz.  She is covered in list of famous people from Tabriz in the Tabriz article..
7)  Note that in the section on the people from the republic of Azerbaijan, it had said: "there exist also people from other ethnicities than the Azeri people (for example Russians)", while in the Iranian section only a selection is made from the most prominent Azeri people of Iran".  That is not really how an Encyclopedia works and its title does not match the name.  Why not say include Armenians from the republic of Azerbaijan (Karabagh included).  Outside or interal wiki politics or users conduct/arguments doesn't matter, this is supposed to be an Encyclopedia.   So the current format is not Encyclopedic and it suggests there are no prominent Armenians for example from the area. However, f this section is kept in its own and is small and is kept to Azerbaijan SSR and modern republic of Azerbaijan, I don't have an issue with it. 
There was no bad intention (if I had bad intention I would use Savory, Encyclopedia of Islam and etc. and argue), but trying to keep it Encyclopedic, technical and overall added a section on Anatolia, Iraq and moved Nasimi, Ismail Xatayi (note I did not delete them ).   And also famous non-Azerbaijani Turkic speakers from the Azerbaijan SSR and republic of Azerbaijan were put there.  As an added contribution, I added Iraq and Anatolia, since someone like Fizuli would be from Iraq and someone like Qadi Burhan al-Din from Anatolia and again based on Encyclopedia of Islam, these are not really defined as Azerbaijanis, but I did not bother.  However,  say ancient Mihranid princes like Javanshir or Shirwanshahs should be in another list for accuracy purposes.  In a sense the title says "list of Azeris", but since the introduction points that section out, it is fine (as long as the periods are defined Azerbaijan SSR and republic of Azerbaijan today) and  since the section is relatively small to the main body, in my opinion it is no big deal.   --Nepaheshgar (talk) 14:20, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Article's name and minor changes

message: Chehregani is not a Professor but might have given lectures.  Professor is someone that is employed full time and usually has to go through assistant, associate and then full Professor.  But such groups are fringe and not really notable.  For example Mir Hossein Mousavi or Khamenei are notable.  --Nepaheshgar (talk) 20:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: correction

message: I think that the list is starting to look great.  One question I have though is whether some of the refs that are being used to reflect notability actually qualify as RSs under wikipedia's rules.  For example, http://www.milliqahraman.az/.  We could of course always explore this at the RS noticeboard, but perhaps people here have a view.  Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand. I know only two of the specialized site of national heroes. This is and one more. Was an English version of this site, but it disappeared.Талех (talk) 11:19, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood.  I agree that this site focuses on national heroes.  What is unclear to me, however, is whether it meets wikipedia's criteria to qualify as a reliable source.  To use its refs to support the notability of people on the list, the site would have to be such a reliable source.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:06, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

text: You can set the source for establishing the criterion of authority. I am thinking here particularly of problems should not be. Талех (talk) 11:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have in mind the criteria set forth at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources.  Do you think this source qualifies under it, and if so how?  Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:45, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

text: If you doubt the authenticity, you can submit a source to assess the reliability test. I can only say that I know tolkko two specialized site of national heroes. Here is a second site Талех (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this self-published media?  How many people are on its editorial staff?  Is there evidence of notability for the person who is the host of the website, in topic of the article, with his work having been published by reliable third-party publications. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:36, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  RS? 

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message: What did Farah Pahlavi, 20th-century Queen of Iran and married to Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (King of Iran) do for her to be included on this page? Was she Queen of Iranian Azerbaijan? Did she promote Azerbaijani culture? IMHO, this tantamounts to adding someone like Peter III of Russia to List of Germans and List of Swedes, amongst many other examples of monarchs and royals who were of different ethnic origins. Actually, it would be even worse, for Peter III (unlike Farah Pahlavi) did not even speak the countries official language and pursued pro-German policies. The article about Farah Pahlavi is furthermore covered by WP:BLP, so unless there is a strong WP:RS that shows the supposed importance of her fathers background in relation to her as a figure, I don't see reason for the article to be included on this page. I'm obviously willing to leave it as it is if compelling arguments can be made in favor its inclusion. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The same thing was raised at Azerbaijani Americans Therefore, I'm inviting  and  to leave a comment as they are both involved. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:13, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is confusing. This article is a list of prominent people who are ethnically Azerbaijani. Their ethnicity playing a role in their life or not doesn't change the fact that she was ethnically Azerbaijani. Things you've said would be appropriate if I was arguing to write that she was a "queen of Iranian-Azerbaijani origin" in her article's lead, which would come to question the relevance of her ethnicity, but that's not what I'm arguing for. Any prominent person who is/was ethnically Azerbaijani can be included in this list (also supported by this sentence from lead: This list also includes people who have at least one parent of Azerbaijani origin). — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  20:20, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

text: What? Without commenting on the unrelated and impolite jab at Azerbaijani Wikipedia, your comment doesn't make much sense. Her father was Azerbaijani as shown by 2 reliable sources in Farah Pahlavi#Childhood. This makes her ethnically Azerbaijani. Are you disputing the fact that people's ethnicities are the same as their father's? — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  21:05, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please don't comment about editors, comment about the topic. I don't dispute the fact that she has Azerbaijanis roots, i'm disputing your conclusion about she being an ethnic Azerbaijani. In that same Imperial family, Christian Pahlavi has a German father, but he's all but an ethnic German. As to the AZ Wiki, given all the nonsenses i've read there, i confirm you that there is no way the english wiki becomes like that.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what part of my comment was about you, but sure. I'm genuinely very confused. Her father was Azerbaijani, what else do you need for someone to be an ethnic Azerbaijani? They don't need to devote their lives to their ethnicity to be a member of it. Someone's ethnic origin isn't decided by politics, it's genetics. Her father was Azerbaijani, which makes her Azerbaijani. — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  21:31, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Her father was Azerbaijani, which makes her Azerbaijani" : Wow ! you gotta be kidding me right ? so according to you, ethnicity is only given by genetics ?? So Napoleon was an Italian and Christian Pahlavi a German with such a rationale ...---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:38, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

text:  Useful article for you :Ethnic group : "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area. Ethnicity is sometimes used interchangeably with the term nation, particularly in cases of ethnic nationalism, and is separate from, but related to the concept of races."---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:44, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wasn't attempting to kid you, but happy me if that made you laugh :) . Her father was an ethnic Azerbaijani, it's absolutely logical to assume she's also Azerbaijani. Do you have any proof of her saying that she's not Azerbaijani or saying she does not identify with such ethnicity and instead identifies with, perhaps, Persian? — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  21:46, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, but the WP:BURDEN of proof is on you to prove that when one's father is Azerbaijani, then that person automatically becomes an Azerbaijani ...---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:50, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. Article's lead states "This list also includes people who have at least one parent of Azerbaijani origin". It's been like that for years. Her father was Azerbaijani, and it's logical for any person to assume that she too, was Azerbaijani. So burden would be on you to prove that she identified otherwise. — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  21:54, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

text: Why would I mention that in an article called "List of Azerbaijanis"? You could surely add her to a possible future article called List of Gilakis, I don't mind it. She had mixed ethnicity parents after all (which obviously doesn't mean that she doesn't belong to any of her parents' ethnicity, but belongs to both of them). — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  22:04, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, having an Azerbaijani father does not mean that she actually is an Azerbaijani.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:10, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You have a source for that? Unless she stated somewhere that she doesn't identify as an Azerbaijani, then it's perfectly logical to assume that she was Azerbaijani. If you'd like, we could write about her mother's ethnicity in the article as well, to note to viewers that she had mixed ethnicity. — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  22:21, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't need a source for that, as i go with what the cited sources say, i.e. her father was Azerbaijani, it's you who need to prove that since her father was Azerbaijani, then she is an ethnic Azerbaijani.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's basic WP:COMMONSENSE that when someone's father is of a certain ethnicity, then their kids are also of that ethnicity. That's basic science. Whether she would agree with it or not, she'd still genetically be Iranian Azerbaijani, so unless there's a statement by her saying she wasn't Azerbaijani. Added to this, the fact that article explicitly states anyone whose at least one parent was/is Azerbaijani is allowed, there's no argument here. — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  22:38, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  WP:COMMONSENSE has nothing to do with adding some original research of your own in the articles, it's about editing behavior.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:46, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It sure does. Adding obvious and sourced things isn't original research. You still have failed to show any statement or source saying that Farah Pahlavi wasn't or didn't identify herself as an Azerbaijani, while there are several sources stating that at least one of her parents was an ethnic Azerbaijani, which is one of the criterias for inclusion in this article, so I see no point in arguing further about this. — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  23:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  you should read WP:COMMONSENSE, might be instructive. I don't have to provide sources that say that Farah Pahlavi was not an Azerbaijani, but you need to provide sources that say that she was an Azeri if you want to include her in this list. End off, we're done here.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 23:57, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  All you need to do is open the "Farah Pahlavi" page on Wikipedia and it says right there she has Azerbaijani descent, I don't understand why you would need more proof than that? – Creffel (talk) 03:32, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

text: If you're done, then we can just follow what the article states and add people whose at least parent is of Azerbaijani descent. — CuriousGolden  (T·C)  07:24, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Farah Pahlavi 

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