Talk:Cochin Jews

message: The photo "Cochin_Jews.jpg" looks as if it isn't real.  The relationship of the faces to the bodies suggest that it is a composite image.  Does anyone else agree? Arnell700 (talk) 03:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: There seems to be a lot of information about the Cochin Jews on the Internet. It might be worth doing some research to expand this article, or at least to add some useful external links. -- Jmabel 18:46, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Research and expand

message: Man, the women in the picture at the top of the page look VERY angry.
No wonder the men in the picture look scared out of their wits. 69.141.47.224 (talk) 04:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Angry women 

message: Did these Jews slowly develop a caste system similar to that of their Hindu neighbours? (anonymously asked Oct 27, 2004)
Edna Fernandes (the journalist whose 2008 book is the source of most of the article) attributes the downgrading of the Black Jews to the arrival from Europe in the 16th century of the White Jews. This would have been a consequence of the expulsion of Spanish Jews by Queen Isabella of Castile and King Ferdinand II of Aragon under the Alhambra Decree of 1492 and related actions in other countries. The details of the disabilities of the majority group resemble those imposed by higher on lower Hindu castes. 
There is no suggestion of the development of caste distinctions within the Jewish community before the arrival of Europeans Jews. The Jews may not have been numerous enough to have to perform all social roles within their communities, so they may not in earlier times have felt the pressure to develop the unacknowledged caste structure that the Indian Christians, Muslims and Sikhs did.
The period after the 16th century may have seen the general exaggeration of caste distinctions in what later became Kerala to the extent that in the 19th century Swami Vivekananda called the area a "madhouse." NRPanikker (talk) 01:36, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Caste 

message: I have removed the word 'Moors' and replaced it with Muslims, because 'Moors' in the context of 16th century India seems like a total Misnomer suggestive of Spain and North Africa. However im not very familiar with the particular history so if anyone has further information or some clarification to add please do so. Isthatyou 15:57, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You have? Jayjg (talk) 18:08, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moors 

message: "Significant populations in: 	Israel 8000 (est.) 	Kerala 52 (including Cochin, Ernakulam, Parur, Aluva and in USA)" - Kerala, including USA??? Shouldn't USA form a separate row? --Oop 22:56, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
* Clearly; I'll edit accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:07, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, what constitutes "significant population" (since it's been removed completely now)?  I am Cochini Jewish and I grew up in the US and have family there, though I can't imagine the 8 or so of us alone count as a significant population!142.157.6.223 (talk) 07:37, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please contact us for documentation of the Jewish community of Kutzin Asafalon (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  USA in Kerala? 

message: For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all  infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:24, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "related groups" info removed from infobox 

message: Are there any speakers???? Axxn 18:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many of them still speak Malayalam? 

message: This article claims that the Jews settled in India as early as 700 BCE on the one hand, and in the times of the breakup of Judah/Israel and of Solomon on the other. As Solomon died around 931 BCE and the United Monarchy divided around 930 BCE, there is a gap of about 200 years. If there is contradictory evidence, these years should be presented as being contradictory. Otherwise, this is just a fascinating article. Wakablogger (talk) 09:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems in chronology 

message: The Joseph Rabban and Joseph Azar family connections could be traced up to Seremban Town in Malaysia.
There were many marriages among the Jews in Seremban.The  Meyuhasheem , Rabbans married  to Eliyahu of Malaya and there were  only 12 families of Jews. Name like Joseph Rabban, Joseph Azar, Benjamin Meyuhasheem,Mannaseh,Mannaseh Meyer,Ezra, Cohen ,these names forgotten by social engineering policies. The last post of jews happens to be the House of Eliyahu of Malaya, two other family of jews were of intermarrige beteween the Naboothri Brahmins of Kerala and Cochini Jews,the migratory birds of the House of Judah.Benjamin Meyuhasheem lives as the Malaysian indian ( Ramalingam / Benjamin Meyuhasheem ) currently believed to have moved to Singapore.He  is of the ancestory and  origins of  the Anjuvarnam Jew  of Kerala. (117.20.173.44 (talk) 08:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cochini Jews are found as far as in Malaysia 

message: 350 g butter
275 g caster suger
250 g semolina flour
55  g all purpose flour
50  g preserved or crystalized melon pices, chopped.
2 table spoon of  diced orange peel or lemon peel
110 g almond chopped
15 egg yolks
1/2 teaspoon mixed spices (the magic jewish five spice powder)
1 teaspoon of vanilla extract.
1 cup of brandy ( 4 oz)
1. mix semolina, flour, melon preserve lemon or orange peel with the jewish 5 spices.
2. Whip egg yoke with half the caster sugar till light and  fluffy.
3.Cream butter with the rest of teh sugar together with vanilla flavour
4.Fold in the creamed egg yoke mixture.
5. Add the mixed dry ingredients and brandy
6. Just stir lightly to well mix
7. Turn batter into lined and greased 9 inch cake tin.
8. Bake in apreheated oven at 175 C for 1 hour until golden brown
9. test with the skewer if the skewer comes out clean the cake is done.
10. Icing the cake with royal icing, or glace ( lemon or orange ) is jewish.
Note : make sure all the ingredients are proper and kosher.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.10.109.139 (talk) 10:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Jewish Semolina Cake of the Seremban Jews- often said to be of Eurasian Recipy 

message: Benjamin of Tudela never visited India himself - see map of his travels. Text after that sentence is fine. - Agassi1 (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The 12th century Jewish traveler Benjamin of Tudela visited the Malabari coast of Kerala..." 

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests July 2011 
;What should I do?
What is the reson for deletion?Old Mallu (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: File:Black jew of cochin with peyots.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: The article seems to make exaggerate the existence of 'racial segregation' or 'apartheid' between the handful of 'white' Jewish families- who owned one, albeit the oldest extant, synagogue- and the much larger Malabari (black) community, who had their own synagogues, some which were very old as well (as back to the 16th century). To call it apartheid is ridiculously excessive as neither community had fewer legal rights or even social or economic standing. As far as I can tell the 'racial segregation' extended only to the use of the one synagogue and the inbreeding among to white community, which given it's size during its peak was only around 100 or so members! That a five or so families had a feeling of superiority isn't worthy of attention. The  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.100.125 (talk) 23:26, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Racial segregation an exaggeration

message: Does anyone know of sources for more information about them? Numbers as part of White Jews when they came in the 16th century? Origins? Based on the history of slavery and slaves in Europe, I think it is likely that most were mixed-race African and European, as such slaves returned with slave ships to Spain and Portugal, often working as sailors and/or interpreters. I knew that in North American colonies, Sephardic Jews were slaveholders, but had not come across any commentary that said their slaves became Jewish.Parkwells (talk) 20:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: ''[[Meshuchrarim]]'' 

message: The article does not have anything on the life of  Cochin Jews in Israel. Jonathansammy (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Life in Israel 

message: There is a problem with the sentence "The plates are physically inscribed with the date 379 CE,[32]". In the first place, this is not possible, as the Common Era (CE) was a) not used in the 4th century at all b) not used in India until the 15th century and c) not used by Jews. So the sentence should probably read "...with a date equivalent to 379 CE". But even this is not obvious to be true, because the translation of the  text doesn't give a date at all, except the one relative to the king's reign. Also the next source quoted [33] says "The plate's narrative declare that they were given to [...] Rabban [...] in 379 C.E." That is not the same as "physically inscribed with". I hesitate to do a change because the "physically inscribed" stuff is sourced with a book I can't access right now. Somebody who can should have a look, but as I said, it's completely impossible that really a CE date is given. Ilyacadiz (talk) 20:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copper Plates 

message: There were five groups (Dasim, Mincharim, Pardesim, Meshuchrarim and Knayim), the latter of which that was converted to Christianity as a result of missionaries. I found a few sources in Hebrew but they all say the same thing. Does anyone have any more information about this? 
YaLindaHadad (talk) 02:04, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: קנאים / Knayim 

message: Several scholars of Jewish history have noted similarities and connections between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. Here are a few quotations from some of these scholars:
1) "There is at least one genre of Knanaya literature that exists also in the
Jewish Malayalam corpus, the pallippattu, 'Synagogue song'." (Quote from - page 92 - Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)
Note: The Malayalam term "Palli" is used to refer to the Syrian Christian "church" and also the Cochin Jewish "synagogue". Also note that the term ‘Syrian Christian’ was coined by the British. Historically, before the arrival of the British to India, the Cochin Jews were called ‘Malabar Juda Mappila’ and the so called Syrian Christians were called ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’.  The term Mappila as used in Malayalam means ‘of West Asian Semitic descent’. It is better to use the term ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’ as this could reduce a lot of the confusion that arise from using the term ‘Syrian Christian.’
2)	"Jussay and Weil compare some songs with the wedding songs of Knanaya Christians as suggestive of historic cultural relations between the two communities. (759) Johnson, with Daniel as her guidance in the language of the corpus, takes the songs as expressions of the socio-religious identity and ideology of Jewish women in Kerala. (760)” (Quote from – page 389 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.) 
(Also refer to - Weil, Shalva J. (1982). "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cnanite Christian and the Cochin Jews of Kerela," Contributions to Indian Sociology 16: 175-196.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/006996678201600202 )
3)	"There are genres of narrative songs about Biblical characters similar to the
formulaic songs in the anthology of Knanaya Christian songs – the women's vattamkali pattu and the men's cintu. (786)
• The synagogue motif suggests a linkage with the Knanaya Christians. It seems to be adopted into the Jewish Malayalam corpus from the Knanaya songs, where it stands for a more mature genre." (Quote from – page 402 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)
4)	"Similarities between the rites and customs of the Syrian Christians (of Kerala) and the Jews of Kerala reflect a possible common origin in the ancient Middle East, and serve as heuristic evidence in support of the historical claims of both communities." (Quote from – page 88 – Ritual and Music in South India: Syrian Christian Liturgical Music in Kerala. Author(s): Israel J. Ross. Source: Asian Music, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1979), pp. 80-98. 
http://www.syriacstudies.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Syrian-music-in-kerala.pdf)
5)	 In the paper ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue (1984), the Cochin Jewish writers Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:
"...the Syrian Christian (copper) plates with the signature of four Jewish witnesses in Judeo - Persian, which incidentally is the second oldest inscription in Judeo- Persian in the world, are a few of the ancient relics that can still be seen to remind one of the glorious past of this forgotten outpost of the Jewish world. " (Page 2 Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).
6)	In another quote from their text the authors Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:
"There are at least a few instances of direct evidence of a Jewish settlement on the South - West Coast of India during the first century of the Christian era. In a wedding song of the ancient Christians of Malabar, mention is made of one Habban, a Jewish merchant, who was sent by a Royal decree to fetch a man who would build a temple more beautiful than the one King Solomon had built in Palestine. Habban accompanied by St. Thomas arrived in Cranganore in 55 A. D., St. Thomas was welcomed by a Jewish flute girl. He stayed in the Jewish quarter of the town and some Jews are said to have been baptized by him in Cranganore." (Page 3 – Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).
Additional note: The copper plates of privileges granted to the Cochin Jews and the Syrian Christians of Kerala by an ancient King of Kerala are similar with 72 privileges engraved on these copper plates. It is important to note that the copper plates in possession with the Cochin Jewish synagogue is in old Malayalam script (Vattezhuthu), while the Kollam (Quilon) copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians is in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew. Ironically, it is the Hebrew script on the Kollam copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malabar Nasranis) that is often taken as conclusive evidence for the earliest presence of Jews in Kerala and India. 
“The Kollam copper-plates inscription (849 ce) in Old Malayalam is the earliest evidence of Jews reaching the region.9” (page 55 - Gamliel, O. (2018) Back from Shingly: revisiting the pre-modern history of Jews ... Indian Economic and Social History Review, 55(1), pp. 53-76.) 
* The observations across several scholarly papers on Kerala Jewish history, support an ancient Jewish heritage for both Knanaya and the other Syrian Christians of Kerala. Scholars of Jewish history have acknowledged cultural similarities and strong links between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. This needs to be mentioned in the articles of these communities. Gafeg (talk) 00:37, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Similarities and connections between Cochin Jews and Kerala Syrian Christians

message: It was Arabs and not zamorin of Calicut attacked Jews in Kodungallore.
ref : mathrubhumi weekly Feb 13 2017. 50.186.129.253 (talk) 00:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arabs not zamorin (king of Calicut) attacked jews