Talk:New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell University

message: This page has a comprehensive history of the ILR School that should be incorporated into this article. —Eustress talk 07:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: History expansion

message: I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the recent change of the name of the article from Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations to ILR School. I reviewed the guidelines at WP:TITLE and I think either name could be argued for. In particular, it seems that the criteria "Common name" and "Conciseness" are generally weighted heavily. See below for my take on the two names vis a vis some of the criteria:
Criterion      	Cornell University Schoolof Industrial and LaborRelations	ILR School	Cornell UniversityILR School
Common name    	Fair                                                     	Good      	Good
Conciseness    	Poor                                                     	Very good 	Good
Recognizability	Very good                                                	Fair      	Good
Naturalness    	Good                                                     	Good      	Good
Precision      	Very good                                                	Fair      	Good
Consistency    	Very good                                                	Fair      	Good
:::Edited to add "Cornell University ILR School" —Bill Price (nyb) 06:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As your analysis above illustrates, there are tradeoffs either way, but since http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/ doesn't mention the full name anywhere, I thought the change best. I really favor the more concise names now that third parties use Wikipedia naming conventions when piping text (e.g., Facebook community pages); however, for Wikipedia's purposes, perhaps it would be best to move to "Cornell University ILR School"? —Eustress talk 03:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "Cornell University ILR School" addresses the issues of recognizability, precision, and consistency. It also appears to pass the "Common name" test, given that it is the wording used on some 3rd-party websites like this one as well as on the school's own Facebook page. All in all, I think it's a good compromise between brevity and precision. —Bill Price (nyb) 06:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article name 

message: Wikipedia must follow the facts, regardless of what a PR man wants.  I had reservations when we first moved the article form New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations.  The reason given was that the article title starting with Cornell would be easier for users to find.  However, since then, the business school article has been renamed "Johnson Graduate School of Management"  So, if it is permissible to have an article reflect the official name of a school (as well as its major benefactor) I would vote to move this back to "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell" Racepacket (talk) 00:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I respectfully disagree; note that, for example, Wikipedia prefers Bill Clinton over William Jefferson Clinton, despite the fact that the former is a nickname and the latter is the "official" legal name. See WP:TITLE. I think that "Cornell University ILR School" is probably the best compromise vis a vis the title selection criteria. —Bill Price (nyb) 01:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Bill presents a good example, and to his point, I have compromised and put the full, historical name in bold in the lead sentence (similar to how Bill Clinton's full name is presented first), then with ILR in parentheses to indicate it as the preferred abbreviation throughout the article and the name the school primarily goes by. Regarding the infobox, usually the more common name goes at top (see again, Bill Clinton). I put "ILR at Cornell University," but "ILR" or "ILR School" would also fit the "bill" (no pun intended). —Eustress talk 01:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it not strike you as a bit odd that the school would "rebrand" its website, but not apply its "rebranding" to its annual budget submissions to SUNY and the State Legislature? Racepacket (talk) 20:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Branding

message: The article states that the school "remains the only institution of higher education with a four-year undergraduate program focused on work and employment."  It appears that the University of Minnesota offers both an undergraduate major and minor in Human Resources. http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/cms/Page5883.aspx. (UM also offers a masters and PhD program.) Anyway, most other universities offer only master degrees in this area. E.g., http://hrlr.msu.edu/about/ and http://www.ilir.uiuc.edu/.  It appears that many employers want someone with a masters degree as an entry into human resources/labor relations.  It is not clear that people use their undergraduate degrees to enter this field and that a  larger percentage of graduates go onto law school and then practice law in areas other than labor relations.  Is the current wording of the article a bit misleading? Racepacket (talk) 14:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Protection is fine with me, but as I read Wikipedia policy, that means that neither of us is allowed to edit the page, because administrators involved in a content dispute cannot use administrator tools with respect to that dispute.  Similarly, although you are an administrator, you can't close the requested move.  Again, I believe that this article should be treated in a manner consistent with other statutory college articles, and should use its official name.  I also believe that the article must be free of any puffing or self-promotion, and should stick to the facts.  Since we both know that there are other undergraduate programs, the article should not state that it is the only program.  The acronym ILR does not have universal acceptance, because for example, the University of Illinois uses LER, and Minnesota uses SHRLR.  In contrast, the abbreviation HR has widespread acceptance. Racepacket (talk) 19:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Undergraduate program

message: Would a neutral administrator not involved in the current content dispute, please change the section to read:
The school was originally housed in quonset huts, but later it moved into buildings vacated by the New York State College of Veternary Medicine. The current campus comprises Ives Hall, and the Martin P. Catherwood Library, which is one of only two official depository libraries of the International Labour Organization (the other being the Library of Congress). It also has branches in Albany, Buffalo, New York City and Rochester. The school also occupies three linked buildings along Garden Avenue, which house research, conference center and extension. The buildings were built in 1911 for the Veternary College and are on a register of historic structures. From 2001-2004, the three buildings were extensively rennovated by New York State. In 2008, the Extension Building was renamed Dolgen Hall.  In 1998, New York State replaced the portion of Ives Hall fronting along Tower Road with a new 110,605 sq ft building. Recently, the State also rennovated the faculty wing of Ives Hall at a cost of $14 million.
Thanks 06:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Campus

message: I am trying to make the infoboxes of the statutory colleges consistent by adding NYS to the name parameters. We don't need to have "Cornell" in the name parameter because it is apparent from the logo image. So I would like this name parameter to be "NYS School of Industrial and Labor Relations" to reflect the name of the school.
I would like to omit the postgraduate student parameter, because we don't want to double-count students who are included in the Graduate School enrollment figure. Who are the 180 graduate students? Racepacket (talk) 04:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: The following sentence was in the lead paragraph: "It also has more faculty dedicated to teaching and researching work, employment, and labor issues than any other educational institution."  But the source is hedged: "ILR has more full-time faculty involved in teaching and research that spans the broad range of work and employment disciplines than any other educational institution of its kind."  Wikipedia left out "full time" and "any other educational institution of its kind."  I am not sure how they are counting.  It appears that the ILR webmaster is counting both the regular and extension faculty to get the total.  I don't know if they included extension faculty of the unnamed other institutions that they are compairing. The comparison is undated and may no longer be valid. Racepacket (talk) 05:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Puffing

message: I propose that List of deans of the ILR School be merged into Cornell University ILR School. I think that the list could easily be just a table in the history section of this article, and theschool article is of a reasonable size in which the merging of list of deans will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Racepacket (talk) 12:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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