Talk:Point of sail

message: , sorry to trouble you, but I'm a bit confused by this edit. I wanted to add a picture of a boat in irons, and thought that's what this showed; can you explain? I'd tend to say the sails of these iceboats are slatting (if it was excessively vigorous, I might say "flogging"), but I used "flapping" as I thought readers would be more likely to understand. "Luffing" I tend to think of as what the sail does at the edge of the no-go zone; that is, "You're luffing" is said just as the sail starts to flutter a little, locally. THis could be a regional difference of some sort. HLHJ (talk) 03:02, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No trouble at all, HLHJ! Thank you for engaging here. I struggled with the question of luffing vs being in irons. In reviewing several dictionaries, I agree with your assessment that my usage is off. "Flapping" would be better. There's still the question of whether the boat is in irons. And, upon further consideration, it could be regarded as such. (Although, one could probably get into the iceboat, push the boom outwards and steer in the opposite direction and move forward, unlike recovery from irons when afloat, where one backs up.) I couldn't find a different/better example of being in irons in Wikimedia, so let's work with this. I'll take another stab at the caption to work in the word "irons". Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 16:33, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, HopsonRoad, the new caption is much better! I like "parked", it's not jargon but it does succinctly give an accurate idea of the situation. I'll try to improve the article body text a bit, but it seems some of the terms have changed over time, so avoiding recentism may be a research task. And maybe a link to Wiktionary would work better. HLHJ (talk) 04:26, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iceboat caption 

message: Hi HLHJ and thank you for your extensive work in this article! I wonder at changing the order of presentation from head-to-wind to dead-downwind. Most treatises start at the top of the diagram. I appreciate that you're trying to explain to the uninitiated, but this order seems odd to the "initiated"! Perhaps returning to the original order, but with the easier-to-follow explanations of each is an appropriate compromise. I wonder if some of the current text strays from WP:TONE. I've tried to streamline some of what I've found. I'll be looking at other passages, later. Thanks, again! Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:42, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly a major re-org, and without prior discussion on the talk page. We should take a critical look at the changes to see if they are really an improvement.  I'm definitely of the school that thinks these articles should be written for the uninitiated rather than for people who already know the material.  Not sure if the recent changes are consistent with that view. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 00:32, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, sorry, I should maybe have discussed it. I'm not really attached to any particular wording, order or content. I find it's generally pretty easy to explain why a sailboat goes downwind, and hard to explain why it goes upwind, which is why I re-ordered it (based on verbally explaining it to people). I had no idea that there was a conventional order. We could flip the lede diagram, with the disadvantage that downwind would no longer be down; but I don't think it matters if we cover the diagram in a bottom-to-top order. Mentioning that one can sail faster than the wind on some courses, and some explanation of why in terms of basic physics, would be good. Lots of people understand some physics but not sailing, and I feel it's generally a good idea for an encyclopedia to connect topics. I find the whole lift-vs-drag discussion a bit complex and low in explanatory value, so I'd be fine with moving it to a special section later in the article, with some explanation of what it means in practical terms. I haven't managed to find a suitably-licensed polar plot of sailing speed yet, but I think such a diagram would improve the article. Generally, this is a fairly spatial topic, where diagramsa are useful; if you can imagine any in particular, I'm willing to make some. On tone, I've tried to introduce jargon as I go along; completely removing it would, I think, have an Up-goer Five effect (I assume that it's this, and not, say, the formality level, which strays from WP:TONE). But there's an arguement for just not mentioning more jargon. I'll try and aim at being understandable to people with no background knowledge. HLHJ (talk) 02:08, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of presentation? 

message: and , terms in this article are sometimes introduced in "quotation marks", at other times with italics, and sometimes they are linked. I suggest that we identify a preferred convention and stick to it throughout the article. I recommend quotation marks, when a term is introduced and no quotation marks, thereafter as the terms are normally written, leaving italics for other opportunities for emphasis. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 00:10, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good; on first use, quotes, and quotes plus wl where the wikilink is available. HLHJ (talk) 00:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that MOS:WORDSASWORDS specifies: "Use italics when writing about words as words, or letters as letters (to indicate the use–mention distinction)." It provides examples. This means that we should introduce words with italics. HopsonRoad (talk) 17:37, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forms of emphasis?