Talk:Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy/Archive 1

message: I'm somewhat astonished to see that none of you have picked up the most recent news that George Campbell and David Morales have now been positively identified as being present at the Ambassador Hotel the night RFK was murdered.
This is basically The Smoking Gun.
Check the news, slowcoaches!Iamlondon 17:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bizarre 

message: Why does the fact that Sirhan Sirhan was a Christian not a Muslim have any relevance to whether the PLO was involved? Why are you putting it back? Are you an anti-Muslim who believes that only Muslims can be PLO terrorists? In which case that is very POV and not appropriate for this page.Dabbler 18:39, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the deal with Muslim? 

message: Another possible scenario - when Sirhan started shooting, one of the security guards drew his revolver & accidentally shot Kennedy. I believe Sirhan would still be legally guilty of murder if such were the case--JimWae 07:34, 2005 July 17 (UTC)
This seems at least as likely as any conspiracy --JimWae 23:45, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another scenario 

message: "SAN FRANCISCO - Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia that allows anyone to contribute articles, is tightening its rules for submitting entries following the disclosure that it ran a piece falsely implicating a man in the Kennedy assassinations. Wikipedia will now require users to register before they can create articles, Jimmy Wales, founder of the St. Petersburg, Fla.-based Web site, said Monday."
Is it true? --tequendamia 23:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A news article about this page! 

message: This page is in danger of turning into the "Robert F. Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy Theories" page. I'm not against these alternative theories being on the page, as they are thought-inspiring, but they overwhelm the basic function of the page, which is to present the facts about RFK's assassination. The "official" story of the shooting is almost sidelined by all the paragraphs devoted to convincing the reader that the official recorded facts are unreliable.
Additionally, almost all the links are to "Alternate Theories" of dubious reliability.
Again, I don't mind these theories being on the page, but ought they not to be balanced with more facts from the "official" version? Woodson 04:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page discusses conspiracy theories more than Actual Assassination 

message: Conspiracy theories are one thing, but having honest intellectual debate about this subject is another. This page tends to give too much credence to conspiracy and not enough to actual facts. At one point, the athor says that, "there is no record of RFK supporting Israel during that period." In fact, there is evidence to RFK's support of Israel. When Sirhan Sirhan was processed, two newspaper clippings were found in his pocket. One of them was from the Pasadena Independent Star News, dated June 2. There is also much reason to believe that Sirhan Sirhan wanted RFK to die. The best evidence of this fact can be found on a page in Sirhan's notebook. He writes, "RFK must die- RFK must be killed. Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated... Robert F. Kennedy must assassinated before 5 June 68." The whole page is dedicated to this mantra. Author Dan E Moldea concludes his book The Killing of Robert F. Kennedy with a story related to him by author Michael McCowan, which goes as follows:
"Suddenly, in the midst of their conversation, Sirhan started to explain the moment when his eyes met Kennedy's just before he shot him.
   Shocked by what Sirhan had just admitted, McCowan asked,'Then why, Sirhan, didn't you shoot him between the eyes?'
   With no hesitation and no apparent remorse, Sirhan replied,'Because that son of a bitch turned his head at the last second.'"
If this appaling admission isn't enough to convict Sirhan, then I don't know what will. To admit conspiracy is to absolve Sirhan of his crime of murdering an important individual that had the potential to alter the course of American history. This page ought to be dedicated to upholding the facts and conclusions that place blame on the guily party and give the proper respect to the slain Kennedy.
Dissent is cool 23:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Full of Errors 

message: All info below taken from the 1977 review by Thomas F. Kranz, Special Counsel to the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office.   
(from page 3) 
In an indictment returned by the Grand Jury of Los Angeles County, defendant Sirhan was charged in Count I with the murder of Robert Francis Kennedy in violation of Penal Code Section 187.  In Counts II - VI defendant Sirhan was charged with assault with a deadly weapon with intent to commit murder of Paul Schrade, Owen Stroll, William Weisel, Elizabeth Evans, and Ira Goldstein, in violation of Penal Code Section 217.  Defendant Sirhan pleaded not guilty.  The trial court denied defendant's motion for separate juries on the issue of guilt and the possible issue of penalty was denied.  Defendant's motion to quash and set aside the petit jury list was denied, as was his motion to quash the indictment.  After a jury trial, defendant was found guilty as charged on all counts, the jury fixing the degree of the offense charged in Count I at murder in the first degree.  After further proceedings on the issue of penalty, the jury fixed the punishment on Count I at death.  The defendant filed a notice of appeal from the judgment of conviction, and the California Supreme Court modified the judgment to provide a punishment of life imprisonment instead of death for the murder of Senator Kennedy.  
(from page 5) 
Earlier in the year, Sirhan had had a conversation with Alvin Clark, a trash collector employed by the City of Pasadena, in which Sirhan had expressed his concern about how the assassination of Martin Luther King would effect "Negro people and how the Negroes would vote in the coming election."  Clark testified at trial that he told Sirhan he was going to vote for Senator Kennedy and Sirhan responded by saying, "What do you want to vote for that son-of-a-b for?  Because I'm planning on shooting him"  Clark then told Sirhan that Senator Kennedy had paid the expenses of bringing Martin Luther King's body back from Tennessee and that "you will be killing one of the best men in the country."  Clark remembered that Sirhan stated that Senator Kennedy had done this merely for the publicity involved, and that this conversation had occured in mid-April, 1968.         
(from page 6) 
While Sirhan was being held in the pantry awaiting the arrival of the L.A.P.D., Rafter Johnson asked Sirhan repeatedly, "why did you do it?"  Sirhan replied, "Let me explain" or "I can explain."  At this time Sirhan also remarked in answer to Jess Unruh's question "Why him?", "I did it for my country," and a few seconds later, "It is too late". 
Sirhan's pockets were emptied and the following items were taken from his possession: an automobile key, two live .22 caliber bullets and an expended bullet, two newspaper clippings (one from the Pasadena Independent Star News dated May 26, 1968, a story by columnist David Lawrence which in part noted noted that in a recent speech Senator Kennedy had "favored aid to Israel with arms if necessary."; the other newspaper clipping, an advertisement from an unidentified newspaper inviting the public "to come and see and hear Senator Robert Kennedy on Sunday, June 2, 1968, at 8:00 p.m., Coconut Grove, Ambassador Hotel, Los Angeles").  Also removed from Sirhan's pockets was $410.66 in cash, including four one hundred dollar bills.  No wallet, identification, or information indicating Sirhan's identity was obtained from the examination of Sirhan's person. 
(from page 9) 
diary - notebook found on the top of Sirhan's dresser, which Mr. Laurence Sloan, employed in the District Attorney's Office as specialist in handwriting and questioned documents, identified as having been written by Sirhan.  These pages read in part as follows:  "May 18, 9:45 a.m./68 - My determination to eliminate R.F.K. is becoming more and more of an unshakeable obsession...  R.F.K. must die...R.F.K. must be killed...Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated before 5 June 68..." 
Other quotes taken from these pages were the following:  
"Ambassador Golberg must die"..."Ambassador Goldberg must be eliminated...Sirhan is and Arab"  "Kennedy must fall (underlined), Kennedy must fall...Senator R. Kennedy must be sacrificed for the cause of the poor exploited people..."
(from page 10) 
(taken from glove compartment of Sirhan's car) 
a wallet containing among other things, current membership card in Sirhan's name in the Ancient Mystical Order of Rosacrucian, as well as other cards identifying Sirhan by name and address
Evidence introduced at trial established that at 8:00 a.m. Police Department arrived at the Sirhan residence, having been assigned to security at the rear of the residence to guard the premises from unauthorized persons.  At approximately 11:00 a.m., upon discarding a paper cup of coffee into the trash which lay inside several boxes and cans of trash on the Sirhan property, he observed an envelope which bore on its face the return address of the Argonaut Insurance Company.  Mr. Laurence Sloan, handwriting specialist of the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office, testified that the writing on the back of the envelope was that of Sirhan.  The following words, repeated several times, were written on the reverse side of the envelope, which had been put in evidence by the prosecution:    "R.F.K. must be...disposed of properly.  Robert Fitzgerald Kennedy must soon die." 
 
Other trial evidence introduced was testimony of Mr. and Mrs. John Weidner, the owners of a health food store in Pasadena, who had employed Sirhan as a box boy and delivery boy.  The weidners had discussions with Sirhan on the subject of politics in which Sirhan asserted that violence was the only means by which American Negroes would achieve their goals, and that the state of Israel had taken his home, and that the Jewish people were on top and directing the events in America.  When Sirhan stated to the Weidners that there was more freedom in Russia and China than America, Mr. Weidner had inquired, "Why don't you go there yourself?"  Sirhan replied, "Maybe one day I will go." 
(from page 11) 
Sirhan stated at trial that he "read everything about the Arab-Israeli situation that he could lay his hands on," including publications from the Arab information center in the United States and a book on Zionist influence on U.S. policy in the Middle East.  
One book read by Sirhan, entitled Cyclomancy(underlined), was described by Sirhan as follows:  "The basis of what he says is you can do anything with your mind if you know how"..."how you can install a thought in your mind and how you can have it work and becom reality if you want it to."  One Rosicrucian article read by Sirhan taught him that if he wrote something down, he would accomplish his goal.  Sirhan testified that he had recorded various things in his notebook "with the objective in mind of accomplishing his goals...and in reference to that, the assassination of Robert Kennedy." 
(from page 12) 
At trial, Sirhan admitted writing on May 18, 1968, that his "determination to eliminate R.F.K. is becoming more the more of an unshakeable obsession...(and that he could have written this at the time Senator Kennedy had said he would send 50 planes to Israel. 
During the two weeks prior to the assassination, ....
After finishing his several hours of shooting at the gun range, Sirhan had dinner at a Pasadena restaurant and observed a newspaper ad which read, "Join in the miracle mile march, for Israel."  Sirhan testified that "this advertisement brought him back to the six days in June of the previous year, and that the fire started burning inside of him as a result of the ad." 
 
When Sirhan saw a sign for United States Senator Kuchel's Headquarters, he dropped by and was told that a large party for Senator Kuchel was going on at the Ambassador Hotel.  When Sirhan walked toward the hotel, with his gun still in the automobile, he observed a large sign concerning some Jewish organization and Sirhan testified that this "boiled him up again."  
(from page 13) 
Out of the presence of the jury, Sirhan screamed to the trial court "I killed Robert Kennedy willfully, premeditatively, with 20 years of malice aforethought."  Additionally, Sirhan stated, "I'm willing to fight for (the Arab cause)...I'm willing to die for it."  
In front of the jury, on re-direct examination, Sirhan explained the circumstances under which he had declared that he had killed Senator Kennedy with malice aforethought.  He had stated that at the time, outside the presence of the jury, had informed the court, "I at this time, Sir, withdraw my original plea of not guilty and submit the ple of guilty as charged on all counts.  I also request that my counsel disassociate themselves from this case completely."   Sirhan stated in front of the jury that he was "boiling" at this time.  And when the trial court asked him "alright, and what do you want to do about the penalty," Sirhan had responded, again outside the presence of the jury, "I will offer no defense whatsoever...I will ask to be executed, Sir."  The trial court had refused to accept the plea and had ordered the trial to proceed, finding Sirhan incapable of representing himself.  Thereafter, Sirhan's mother and Mr. Nakhleh, a Palestinian Arab attorney serving as a defense advisor, had spoken with Sirhan and had given him advice.  Sirhan had agreed to proceed with the trial represented by his counsel, once they agreed not to call the two girls as witnesses.   
(from page 17) (Summary of Trial Evidence) 
It is clear from the record that there was abundant evidence of premeditation and deliberation of first degree murder.  Sirhan had purchased the murder weapon almost six months prior to the assassination that Sirhan was "planning on shooting that son-of-a-bitch Senator Kennedy", and Sirhan's stalking of Kennedy, all reflected by Sirhan's own testimony added substance to this conclusion.  Additionally, Sirhan's trip to the shooting range, his visit to the Ambassador Hotel two days prior to the assassination, and his conduct immediately prior to the assassination, including his asking of questions relative to Senator Kennedy's intended route and security protection, including his statements after the assassination that he could "explain" and committed his act "for my country," and his possession on his person of clippings relative to Senator Kennedy and the Senator's favorable position towards Israel, all added to evidence of premeditated murder.  Finally, in front of the jury, Sirhan admitted that during a courtroom outburst while the jury was absent, he had stated, "I killed Robert Kennedy willfully, premeditatedly, and with 20 years of malice aforethought."
Emobiles 13:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some information from the FBI review of the Sirhan Sirhan trial: 

message: This page is in danger of turning into the "Robert F. Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy Theories" page. I'm not against these alternative theories being on the page, as they are thought-inspiring, but they overwhelm the basic function of the page, which is to present the facts about RFK's assassination. The "official" story of the shooting is almost sidelined by all the paragraphs devoted to convincing the reader that the official recorded facts are unreliable.
Additionally, almost all the links are to "Alternate Theories" of dubious reliability.
Again, I don't mind these theories being on the page, but ought they not to be balanced with more facts from the "official" version? Woodson 04:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page discusses conspiracy theories more than Actual Assassination 

message: Sirhan's gun was placed by all witnesses at between 2 and 5 feet from the Senator when he fired his revolver. [8] All witnesses seemed to agree Sirhan was facing Kennedy when he fired.
In conducting the autopsy on Kennedy, Los Angeles coroner Dr. Thomas Noguchi found powder stippling on Kennedy's ear and gunpowder residue (including soot) in his hair.  Noguchi said this indicated that Kennedy was shot from a distance of, at most, 1.5 inches (37 millimeters.) (When a firearm is discharged, the soot component of the gunpowder residue travels only a few inches because the material is very light.)  Noguchi and fellow investigators confirmed autopsy impressions by experimental test firings conducted at the Police Academy shooting range.  Noguchi's conclusions led to speculation that Sirhan was too far from Kennedy and in the wrong position to have administered the fatal shot (also fired from a .22 caliber handgun, one which had apparently been fired into Kennedy's head at point-blank range from behind his right ear) and that a second shooter must have been present. Dr. Noguchi wrote years later that:
“ Until more is precisely known…the existence of a second gunman remains a possibility. Thus, I have never said that Sirhan Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy. ” — Dr. Noguchi [9][10] 
Independent testing (shown in a 2004 "Unsolved History" series program on the Discovery Channel) indicates that gunpowder residue from a similar weapon and similar ammunition can easily travel over 15 inches (38 cm), but that the stippling effect observed requires that the muzzle of the gun must have been less than 2 inches (5 cm) away.
159.71.254.248 (talk) 20:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autopsy 

message: Looking at the assassinations of both JFK and RFK I came on this article and must say it is in need of serious clean up.  The Legacy section has a insane and I might had inane amount of citation needed notes peppered through out it.  The idea that one needs a citation on things like the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King and the violence at the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago is on par with needing a citation to the statement the sky is blue.  Time to use a little restraint and some common sense.--BruceGrubb 12:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In need of a major clean up: 

message: There is a lot of undue weight accorded to conspiracy theories in this article, and the extremely dubious program Conspiracy Test is not a great source for a huge section. The conspiracy theory stuff, and in particular the stuff from that program, needs to be pruned considerably. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undue Weight 

message: Conspiracy theories are one thing, but having honest intellectual debate about this subject is another. This page tends to give too much credence to conspiracy and not enough to actual facts. At one point, the athor says that, "there is no record of RFK supporting Israel during that period." In fact, there is evidence to RFK's support of Israel. When Sirhan Sirhan was processed, two newspaper clippings were found in his pocket. One of them was from the Pasadena Independent Star News, dated June 2. There is also much reason to believe that Sirhan Sirhan wanted RFK to die. The best evidence of this fact can be found on a page in Sirhan's notebook. He writes, "RFK must die- RFK must be killed. Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated... Robert F. Kennedy must assassinated before 5 June 68." The whole page is dedicated to this mantra. Author Dan E Moldea concludes his book The Killing of Robert F. Kennedy with a story related to him by author Michael McCowan, which goes as follows:
If this appaling admission isn't enough to convict Sirhan, then I don't know what will. To admit conspiracy is to absolve Sirhan of his crime of murdering an important individual that had the potential to alter the course of American history. This page ought to be dedicated to upholding the facts and conclusions that place blame on the guily party and give the proper respect to the slain Kennedy.
Dissent is cool 23:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the above poster.Who edits this garbage?  Entries for this subject must rank as one of the most biased and undersourced I have ever read.You quote me in part but ignore my research about Shane O'Sullivan's ridiculous RKK/CIA allegations and Steve Barber's article about the acoustics evidence which is challenges everything about the new Discovery Times documentary - see below - 
 
 
You omit so much it is difficult to know where to start - perhaps here -  where you will find further books and information which challenge your conspiracy-minded editor:
 
http://hnn.us/articles/32193.html
 
http://hnn.us/articles/38496.html
 
http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Terrorist-Sirhan-Assassination-Kennedy/dp/1597970794/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6339153-5263333?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181750129&sr=8-1
Most of this page is unreferenced nonsense Mindstar (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Full of Errors 

message: The Pruszynski Recording should absolutely have ITS OWN PAGE as well as a section in this article.  Also, I suggest that the individual(s) who are the main contrib to this page strongly heed the urgings of the person who created the Page Full Of Errors section...an article like this is best served by sticking to  those facts which are most indisputable.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.163.197.204 (talk) 16:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pruszynski/Page Full of Errors 

message: In an effort to satisfy policy, I have been editing this article extensively.  I hope to conclude it over the next few hours.  The last edit was a structiral one, so I'm explaining here what it is that has happened
- The fringe theory elements need to be reduced/neutralised per WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV.  Unfortunately, they are huge!  So to make the job easier, I have offloaded the offending content to my userspace, allowing me to rewrite it from scratch whilst tabbing between it carefully.  Do not panic, I haven;'t just gon emad and ripped out half the article for no reason - but it will be substantially smaller as it returns.
- Restructuring the headings.  The article is about the assassination.  Therefore it needs more substantial material on the perpetrator than it currently has.  
I also expect to add more third-level headings to break sections up, and to reduce the size of the media section.  This will all take some time because the article is largely unreferenced, and that means a lot of searching to be done.  I suspect there will be citation needed tags at the end however.  I will report back the remaining work once I remove the  tag.  As I will be saving often, feel free to drop a line to my talk page, as I'll see the new messages rapidly Fritzpoll (talk) 21:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major revamp 

message: In the "Aftermath and legacy" section, I have added 3  tags because the article is attributing an opinion to individuals, and we should provide sources to back this up.  I tagged these in the process of expanding this section.  Once these references are in place, I plan to send the article up to peer review where we can get a wider community comment about the material.  Fritzpoll (talk) 14:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out - I will correct that if it hasn't already been done. Fritzpoll (talk) 00:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last few references needed... 

message: I'm not sure I understand why you can't link to this url?  Is it some technical problem?
--jbmurray (talk • contribs) 18:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is blacklisted as spam.  I posted a request to have it delisted, but it was overturned as having been added by someone at the Foundation in 2004.  No other rationale was given.  It will take a long time to find a replacement, as I'll have to go through all the files at the Mary Ferrell Foundation (external link at the bottom) to find the right document.  And there are a *lot* of them!! Fritzpoll (talk) 18:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, OK.  The one time I ran into a problem like that I had better luck.  Commiserations.  --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 18:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  paperless archives 

message: Compson1 (talk) 00:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The explanation is based on the source cited, the author's contention being that the process essentially relied on an "undemocratic" process meaning that Kennedy was unlikely to win as a result.  The irony, I suppose, being that Humphrey could win without taking part in primary elections.  All I did was try to summarise the source - if you feel it is inadequate, or needs expanding (you clearly have a good source there) you don't need my permission to do it! I would enjoy reading more in this section :)  Fritzpoll (talk) 01:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

text: It is quite feasibly a failure in my summarising skills - i.e. that I understand it but for some reason haven't expressed it coherently - I would welcome a correction. Fritzpoll (talk) 12:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  1968 election 

message: This has been played around with several times over the past 24hours.  Let's talk about it here, and come up with some compromise wording.  Sirhan is correctly, in my opinion, described as the perpetrator.  Per WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV, we want to acknowledge the majority view, which is that Sirhan committed the crime.  On the other hand, I accept the criticism of the element relating to the Israel connection, since, althought the sources are highly suggestive, they are not emphatic on this point.  Would it be acceptable simply to remove the final clause relating to Israel? Fritzpoll (talk) 22:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "perpetrator" vs. "man convicted of" 

message: Following extensive rewrite, alternative theories have been limited and an attempt at balance made.  Need to know if coverage is sufficient, and satsifes WP:FRINGE as well as other policies Fritzpoll (talk) 16:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand the point made about TV coverage, but Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, but requires verifable sources. So there are some alternative theories that may be difficult to cover.Doug Weller (talk) 17:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Durova.  I massively reduced the content of the conspiracy theories section during my rewrite the other day, and attempted to included sources to balance these sections back to the majority viewpoint.  Can I just clarify:  do you think there is a problem with the section as it stands, or are you just concerned that there is a tendency for this section to become massively full of wild fringe theories? Fritzpoll (talk) 09:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, what percentage of the leading experts suppose that alternative theories hold water?  Right now the space in the article is about evenly split between conventional and alternative.  Unless this is really an open debate with no firm expert consensus, which I doubt is the case, then per WP:UNDUE the alternative stuff is still getting way too much weight. DurovaCharge! 09:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think what is actually lacking is sufficient content about the event itself.  I will reduce the content again in the CIA involvement section, since yours is essentially the second concern I've seen, but ultimately, more information in the Event section or in the perpetrator section will probably balance this article out. Fritzpoll (talk) 09:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Could you propose an alternative, or even edit yourself, provided you can supply relevant sources? Fritzpoll (talk) 13:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources are already there. [34] already covers what I explained and includes detailed mention of why the opposing source at ref [38] should not be given undue weight. I'd have to think of an alternative that doesn't take up too much space. Another point I notice has no mention, is the autopsy results finding that the head shot was fired from several inches. As no witness puts Sirhan closer than several feet this is relevant in the second gunman section. Reliable sources find this of interest so it should be in the article. The fact that fringe theories are being given increased credibility by the mainstream media should be given due weight. Currently the article has reduced the weight to the extent that it implies there is no mainstream support at all for them. I'd even argue that coverage of fringe theories should be expanded a little until such time as they have their own article as anyone reading the page would assume there is no real controversy. Wayne (talk) 05:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The proportion of space devoted to any given interpretation should be in keeping with the proportion of recognized experts who adhere to it. DurovaCharge! 05:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you either provide information regarding how we are to arrive at the proportion of recognized experts who adhere to either side of the debate about this crime, or criteria which would allow us to determine who is an expert?71.237.161.49 (talk) 15:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Take a look at the criteria Jimbo Wales gave at WP:UNDUE - most comonly accepted references say that this is the way it happened, with a significant minority adhering o the alternative theories listed Fritzpoll (talk) 15:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I can only agree with Durova.  The overwhelming mainstream opinion is that Kennedy was assassinated by Sirhan.  As such, Wikipedia's policies and guidelines (particularly WP:Fringe theories and WP:WEIGHT) indicate that conspiracy theories, held by a minority must not be given undue weight in an article.  In fact, the relevant sentence is "Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all.  I believe that this balance has been achieved, although the consequences of the assassination (the "Aftermath") have yet to be adequately described to present balance.  The fact that there is a section on fringe theories in this article would be indicative to any reader that such theories exist. Fritzpoll (talk) 12:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Again I'd ask what the basis for the conclusion that mainstream opinion is that Sirhan was guilty?  There have been multiple reports from mainstream sources bringing forth new evidence that seems to dispute this conclusion.71.237.161.49 (talk) 15:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Found guilty in a court of law with multiple appeal rejections and no plausible alternative explanation that isn't shot full of holes.  This seems extensive enough Fritzpoll (talk) 15:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Larry Teeter, Sirhan's lawyer, asked for recusal from several judges due to their bias against his case, so there is at least counter explanations that should be considered when speaking of the rejections of these appeals.  As to whether or not the alternative theories are shot full of holes is certainly an open question when there are eyewitnesses, some of whom were wounded, who after 40 years still hold that there was more than one shooter.71.237.161.49 (talk) 04:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm fine with giving fringe theories due weight but currently they are given almost no weight by ommission. Another point is that while the majority view is that Sirhan shot Kennedy it is also the majority view of the experts who have examined the tapes and evidence that although Sirhan did indeed shoot Kennedy there was probably a second gunman. It is only the theories around Sirhans involvement that are fringe and not the second gunman theory itself because there is evidence accepted by reliable sources that supports the possibility. Wayne (talk) 16:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But if we accept that the majority viewpoint is that Sirhan shot Kennedy, isn't the fact that there might have been someone else discharging a gun irrelevant to the subject of Kennedy's assassination, in that it doesn't contradict the notion that Sirhan killed him? Plus other evidence mentioned on this talk page(and the archive) indicates a majority view of 4 UK experts vs. van Pragg and one other in the states that eight shots were fired so your assertion of a majority viewpoint in this area seems to be flawed? Fritzpoll (talk) 17:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not true that van Pragg is the only expert who came to the conclusion that there were more than 8 gunshots.  Mel Ayton who is a supporter of the official story reported  that three experts found that there were more than eight shots, whereas five experts found that there were eight shots.  It is not a four to one ratio, but rather a five to three ratio, and further it appears that Mel Ayton's team of five were not working with the master tapes.71.237.161.49 (talk) 04:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robert F. Kennedy assassination: Extent of coverage of alternative theories 

message: John Frankheimer did drive Kennedy and Fred Dutton to the Ambassador (Witcover, p. 254), but the fact seems too trivial to be included.  Compson1 (talk) 17:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frankheimer as driver 

message: The term conspiracy theory is a prejorative.  I renamed the section "Problems With the Official Account" but my edits were reverted.  Also I tried to add a recent quote from John Pilger indicating he witnessed the shooting and was certain there was a second gunman, but this addition was deleted before I could clean it up.  Is there a bot monitoring this particular entry or what?71.237.161.49 (talk) 07:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The problems with what you are tring to add are to do with trying to present the majority view within the article.  The conspiracy theory material is therefore limited in size compared to the account accepted by the overwhelming majority of people Fritzpoll (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding was that Wikipedia aimed at accuracy.  Is this not the case?  Also could you cite polls or any other source to verify that the majority of the public hold the official view?  Finally it seems that many mainstream news organizations have been presenting information that questions the official version lately, specifically regarding the possibility of a second gunman.  If I cite mainstream sources and am careful not to overstate will my edits hold?  Finally why should the section about problems in the official account be labeled with a prejorative?71.237.161.49 (talk) 13:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I could easily ask you to provide me a 'poll' or 'survey' that proves that the public think something fishy happened.  And yet, it wouldn't matter.  The majority of reliable source (per the guidelines at WP:RS).  As to other mainstream organisations questioning the official view, it probably depends on context.  If multiple news outlets decide to go nuts and all start talking about one lone individual's theory that Kennedy was actually assainated by an orangutang, then this probably shouldn't be included.  The point is that Wikipedia doesn't simply go for accuracy, it also seeks a neutral point of view whilst not lending too much credence to viewpoints that do not conform to the mainstream view.  a month ago, this article was four times the size, and over two-thirds of it was conspiracy theory - this must not happen again.  To be honest, your title "Problems with the official account" is equally bad - it assumes that these are actually problems, whilst the text within it balances conspiracy with counterpoints.  Personally, I prefer "Alternative theories", but this was changed a few days ago.  Best wishes Fritzpoll (talk) 14:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a published study confirming that the majority of reliable sources per Wiki guidelines conclude that the official story is verified? Or is this just an assertion too?  Isn't it better to address one source at a time rather than make claims about the totality of available sources?71.237.161.49 (talk) 14:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

text: I didn't make the claim about what the majority POV was, you did.  If the majority of news organizations reported this orangutang theory wouldn't it become the majority view?  I guess the better approach to just deciding what is crazy and what is not is to examine the evidence.  All I'm trying to do is cite a few bits of evidence that have recently been reported by major news organizations.   Again, if I can cite reliable sources and am careful will my edits hold?  I'm unclear why my title "Problems with the official account" is a bad choice when the second line of the section reads: "Some individuals involved in the original investigation and some researchers have suggested alternative scenarios for the crime, or have argued that there are serious PROBLEMS WITH THE OFFICIAL CASE."71.237.161.49 (talk) 14:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How about we compromise on the title back to "Alternative theories", which is certainly less prejorative? This is certainly my preference.  You can add what you like, but just be aware that this article is now widely watchlisted - your additions may be reverted by other editors. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Alternative theories is less prejorative and acceptable.71.237.161.49 (talk) 14:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Great.  As to your insistence on including more alternative theories, I point you to the policies that I have already linked to.  Wikipedia works by consensus, not by polls, and this is the current consensus - I didn't revert your edit earlier, so I don't know what it contained.  What are you trying to say? Fritzpoll (talk) 14:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm more than willing to hash out whatever additions I have the time to make through discussion.  My earlier edit was sloppy as I'm not as familiar with wiki edit tags as I ought be, and while I was trying to correct the edit was reverted.  I'll be more careful on that front in the future.71.237.161.49 (talk) 15:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Agree with Fritzpoll. DurovaCharge! 10:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

text: The recency of he reporting means that we cannot possibly assess that this has become the mainstream viewpoint.  News reporting is not sufficient to indicate a shift of opinion - I think we'd be looking towards being able to look in a typical reference (news is not a typical reference for a history) and see that these doubts exist. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This strikes me as a bit of a catch 22. Would peer reviewed scientific papers be adequate sources to shift Wiki's perspective on what constitutes the majority view?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.241.126.114 (talk) 23:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy Theories Section Should be Renamed 

message: CNN international, NBC news, ABC News, the BBC, and many other television news programs and newspapers have recently reported on evidence indicating there was more than one gunman, that the forensic evidence was tampered with before Sirhan's trial, and other reasons to hold a position of skepticism about the official story.  I would say that recently the majority view has shifted from a total rejection of alternative theories towards a position of doubt about the official story.  This does not mean that any particular narrative or explanation of a conspiracy is held by the majority, however there is certainly an openness amongst mainstream opinion to consider new evidence.  The same could not be said about Flat Earth theories.  It strikes me that Jimbo Wales' correct assessment that wikipedia should be weighted towards mainstream rather than fringe opinion simply doesn't apply when it comes to the new evidence being reported by mainstream journalists regarding this case.71.237.161.49 (talk) 04:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The recency of he reporting means that we cannot possibly assess that this has become the mainstream viewpoint.  News reporting is not sufficient to indicate a shift of opinion - I think we'd be looking towards being able to look in a typical reference (news is not a typical reference for a history) and see that these doubts exist. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This strikes me as a bit of a catch 22. Would peer reviewed scientific papers be adequate sources to shift Wiki's perspective on what constitutes the majority view?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.241.126.114 (talk) 23:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Mainstream opinion may be divided

message: The "RFK Must Die" documentary presents compelling evidence that
CIA officers opposed to Kennedy were present at the Ambassador Hotel
during his assassination and probably participated in it.
The documentary presents indisputable evidence that members of LAPD
with ties to the CIA actively engaged in covering up certain material
facts when they conducted their investigation. The facts that they actively 
engaged in covering up plainly indicated the participation of other
individuals in the assassination, individuals who were present when the
assassination took place, and the existence of a conspiracy.
Neither of the preceding facts is mentioned in your article. In fact, the
article represses the clear implications of the "RFK Must Die" documentary.
In addition, this Wikipedia article is highly misleading in its statement
that the "RFK Must Die" film somehow reveals that the individual identified
as a CIA operative was "in fact" a Bulova watch executive. The article gives the impression that the film reverses its own analysis here, when, in fact, it shows that Bulova was a long-standing CIA-run company, and directly states that these Bulova watch "executives" may very well have been the second or straight identities of the CIA operatives identified in the film--a highly plausible inference in light of the documented proof of CIA involvement in running Bulova.
Finally, while this article dismisses the audiotape analysis presented in the film, which concludes that more than 8 shots were fired (which would by necessity prove the existence of a second gunman), it does not mention the concrete visual evidence, evidence in the LAPD record, and other testimony which plainly show that additional bullets (i.e., more than 8 bullets) were recovered from the crime scene, and that this fact was omitted from the official report.
The article's treatment of the evidence presented in "RFK Must Die" is inadequate and, according to all appearances, at least somewhat biased.
Gegollrad (talk) 18:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi there - thanks for the concerns.  There are a couple of points here:  The article has to have a neutral point of view - the contents of the RFK Must Die documentary have been dissected by the maker of the documentary himself and those are the "dismissals" that you refer to.  The article does not attempt to dismiss sources, since that would make the article opinionated.  Instead it is balanced out by counter-opinions.  Furthermore, there would be an issue in including much more information on these conspiracy theories per our ediorial policy on such matters.  Fritzpoll (talk) 22:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Article Ignores Hard Evidence Presented in the "RFK Must Die" documentary 

message: *Perhaps add a link to the JFK assassination article in the first sentence?
*:Difficult to do without removing the wikilink for his brother... 
*President of the United States is wlinked to twice in the first two sentences. 
*Should he be referred to as Robert or Robert F.? (Start of Background section) 
*Internet references need access dates (and any other available information)
*"who had won the 1964 election with a landslide of the popular vote" - is this relevant?  removed
*Ref 3 needs a publisher  - added publisher = White House
*"President on March 16, 1968" - if you're going to wlink dates (not compulsory), make sure you link all of them 
*Is ref 13 (http://www.moldea.com/rfk.html) a reliable source? 
*:It is, because it's an excerpt from the book that is used throughout the article, but I don't have a copy to hand.
*::That could be a copyvio issue; do they have permission to publish the book there? If yes, that's fine; if no, use  without URL (but use that source for yourself anyway). —Giggy 22:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Refs 42 and 43 at random glance need access dates. Check all web references. —Giggy 22:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: In the U.S., unlike the U.K., commas and periods go inside quotation marks.  (Semi-colons go outside.)  I normally wouldn't point this out, but I thought you might want to know since you went to the trouble of altering what was standard American punctuation.  Compson1 (talk) 01:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punctuation 

message: I find you Media coverage coverage section somewhat strange. The Time magazine article given as a reference says the shots were fired at 2:17 a.m. and that at 12:19 ABC broadcast "wobbly  video tape" from the murder scene. The fact that it was in "black and white" made little difference as I did not know anyone with a color TV in those days anyway. Plus, after Martin Luther King, Jr. shortly before, the dawn of televised assassinations was just beginning. From my point of view, you fail to realise the impact of those "wobbly" video tapes had. Forget that it was in black and white. I was watching and that is not what went through my mind.  —Mattisse (Talk) 23:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are missing the point. You are looking at it as if it happened today. When President Kennedy was shot, it wasn't on the TV two minutes later. We heard it over the radios half hour later, gathered in little groups around the few people who had transistor radios.  For those of us learning about Robert Kennedy's shooting, the color vs. black and white thing was totally trivial as few people had color TVs then. It was shocking and  some of the pandemonium was shown, or at least conveyed.  You are not viewing it in the context of the meaning at the time.  —Mattisse (Talk) 19:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

text: What I was quoting regarding the two minute time frame was from the Time magazine link your  article uses as a reference. I will also say that I lived in San Francisco at the time and didn't know anyone with color TV. Color TV wasn't an issue then. Maybe it is like HD TV now. I hardly know a person who cares about HD TV, but if you go by the media, it is a big deal.   —Mattisse (Talk) 20:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but it needs to be in the article to explain why that time difference exists. Fritzpoll (talk) 20:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media coverage 

message: The easiest thing in the world to effect a plausibly deniable attack is to put a gun in the hand of a nut, and enable access.
I've read of conspiracy theories (someplace--if only I had captured the reference!) that assert just that happened in this case. It would be good if some knowledgeable researcher could access such references and make brief reference to them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.229.49.22 (talk) 02:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Putting A Gun In The Hand 

message: Well, at last I see a person being called a Palestinian. Didn't know Palestinia was a country. Or a religion. Or anything. But at last, overhere, the word seems to exists, albeit negative. White phosphor, anyone? -DePiep (talk) 00:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is the reverse of Godwin's law. This is probably contraversial considering the current "edit ninjas" on the current Gaza conflicts. 78.145.187.95 (talk) 04:03, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Palestinian? 

message: The time has come for an article on Thane Eugene Cesar, long suspected as the alternative shooter.  This article on the assassination might have included information about him, as well as information about the behavior of the Los Angeles Police Department, specifically their destruction of the evidence.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.19.132 (talk) 12:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: See above comment by Fritzpoll.  Keeper | 76 15:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative Shooter 

message: Copied from my talkpage - needs discussion here: Fritzpoll (talk) 13:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I just moved it back to the way that got the lead section through the FA process.  I wouldn't say that the title is descriptive, so I would expect a bolding occurrence in the first sentence.  The revert wasn't direct - I think it got caught up in a lot of vandalism reverts that day.  The talk page for the assassination is quite well watched, for a variety of reasons, and I won't be around really for the next few weeks - feel free to take it up there.  It isn't my article, but I think it is a change that might need some discussion Fritzpoll (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi- I will also be too busy for a while to give it much time. Do you think I should just copy this over to the article's talk page? -Eric talk 15:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead suggestions copied over from my talkpage 

message: Hi all,
I added a section from Sirhan Sirhan's diary (as in Wikisource) that I thought was valuable because it showed that Sirhan Sirhan really had some serious mental illness. This is an issue that is hardly addressed in the article and having this firsthand proof couldn't hurt. However my edits were reverted as vandalism, and I can see why: they certainly do look like vandalism, coming as they do from the diary of a schizophrenic. "RFK must be assassinated assassinated assassinated assassinated" etc. I can only assume these reverts must be automatic, since a quick look at the Wikisource confirms that the text is legitimate; furthermore, my messages told me I should have included a justification (which I had done all three times). I'd appreciate if there was some attempt to check of the edits are legitimate, rather than just assuming that they are vandalism and labelling me "Perpetrator!"
Thanks, an IP Number  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.69.114 (talk) 03:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auto-reversion 

message: And just now I changed "1968" to "68" -- the form in which it appears in Sirhan's diary. The quotes indicate a direct quote, and the direct quote is 68, not 1968. It's OK to say 1968, but to put it in quotes is to be dishonest about the actual contents of the diary!
128.12.69.114 (talk) 03:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely correct - I have restored your version, and warned the person who reverted you.  Thanks for bringing this to the talkpage. Fritzpoll (talk) 07:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autoreversion again 

message: Why isn't Howard Hughes' involvement with Robert F. Kennedy's assassination mentioned?  Even if this can only be considered a conspiracy theory, surely it is signficant enough to include on this page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.141.186.55 (talk) 06:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Howard Hughes 

message: The article states "Sirhan Sirhan was a strongly anti-Zionist Muslim." 
The two sources cited for at that line won't load for me. 
I'm changing "Muslim" to "Christian." Everything I've seen elsewhere on Wikipedia says he was from a Christian family. 
The main article on Sirhan states, "Sirhan was born in Jerusalem to a Palestinian Christian family" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirhan_Sirhan#Personal_information). The article on RFK's assassination also says he was a Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy#Assassination).
If anyone can find any certifiable source that he was a Muslim, I'd like to see it (and I don't mean that in any kind of snarky way). 
MiloD (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sirhan Sirhan's religion 

message: Anyone else ever heard this? The Manchurian candidate theory. --98.232.181.201 (talk) 07:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but not enough sources exist.  I'm thinking of starting a new spin-out article on the conspiracy theories so that they can be discussed without overwhelming this article.  Have a look at User:Fritzpoll/ConspiracyTheory/The_woman_in_the_polka-dot_dress for the existing material we had on this, and if you can dig out any sources, let me know. Fritzpoll (talk) 12:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Woman in the polka-dot dress 

message: New article in need of some TLC and sourced expansion - unsourced information will be reverted on sight, but this is an outlet for sourced facts pertaining to the conspiracy theories surrounding this assassination Fritzpoll (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Robert F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories]] 

message: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKenyartS.htm
Maybe I missed it - but I didn't see any mention of the film that was seized from Enyart -  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.251.169.70 (talk) 07:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jamie Scott Enyart - Film Seized and Lost/Stolen 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Indira Gandhi assassination which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 06:45, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: The picture of Robert Kennedy after having been fatally wounded is inappropriate in my opinion. Just as there was an outcry over the broadcasting of the recent death of an Olympic Luger (in real time and in slow motion),this, too, seems to be a visual of death that the wider public need not see while reading about the facts concerning the assassination. But I'd like to know what other contributors think about this. ExistentialBliss (talk) 19:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do you feel it isn't appropriate? It is informative; it conveys the immediate aftermath very well. I imagine it could distress some readers, but Wikipedia isn't censored (except for some BLPs, which this is not). --Avenue (talk) 21:21, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. ExistentialBliss (talk) 05:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture of a dying RFK 

message: According to this video he died at 1:44am 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujPidSx7Vus&feature=related  — Preceding unsigned comment added by R&BEditzs (talk • contribs) 07:20, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  TIME OF DEATH  

message: At the bottom of the "Assassination" section, it names other people wounded in the violence.  The name "Ira Goldstein" links to a fictional character from New Zealand commercials.  Is there a real Goldstein who was injured, or is that a joke by someone?  98.220.211.83 (talk) 15:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there was a real Ira Goldstein shot in the hip. See the TIME article via ref [15]. I've removed the link to Ira Goldstein and others. Thanks for spotting that. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:28, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ira Goldstein? 

message: The mainstream opinion is that Sirhan killed Kennedy over his opinions about Israel, including support for various Israeli actions.  I think that if Kennedy expressed such opinions, this probably needs to be covered in the "Background" section (with sources, of course).  The mainstream viewpoint needs to be thoroughly represented or some more of the fringe material needs to be removed per concerns expressed above. Fritzpoll (talk)
:Sirhan was working as a stable hand for the radio commentator George Putnam at the time of the RFK assassination. Here is an interview with Putnam:  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_35_18/ai_92352734/ which makes much of his association with Hoover, Nixon, Reagan, etc., and in which Putnam expresses his extreme views about the Arabs and Israel. Not sure why this isn't considered significant. Putnam was a hypnotist (performed at his own parties!) as well. Oops.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.111.21 (talk) 16:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background 

message: I'm replacing the lead image in the infobox, per WP:NOTCENSORED.
#The previous version used :File:Robert F. Kennedy 1964.jpeg
#At the time of the article's FA nomination, the image used was :File:Robert F Kennedy crop.jpg (8 August 2008 version).
#The readable prose size hasn't increased much since the FA promotion, but images have changed
#My relocation of the image may appear slightly shocking, but as the subject of the article is the actual assassination, it can be reasonably argued that readers will be expecting to encounter such material early in the article.
-- Trevj (talk) 07:55, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Close, but not an exact match. It almost looks like both photographers shot at the same time, but Eppridge was standing a foot or so to Yaro's left. Check the angle of Romero's head and arm, as well as the angle of Kennedy's body in relation to the photographer. Fat&Happy (talk) 05:32, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead image 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Information Clearing House - Steve Fiorina - Man Shot Alongside RFK Say Sirhan Sirhan Should Be Granted Parole, 11 February 2016.      ←   ZScarpia   18:25, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul Schrade statement 

message: The Manchurian candidate hypothesis should be included (but leave MK Ultra references to the conspiracy page).  The "theories" are not mutually exclusive or competing and have usually been presented as aspects of one cohesive narrative (ie. RFK Must Die).  (If the aspect theories fit in overall theories shouldn't there be a different word for that?  Elements vs whole?)  The first paragraph should be that overarching "umbrella" with aspects following, and where it states "Some individuals involved in the original investigation and some researchers have suggested alternative scenarios for the crime, or have argued that there are serious problems with the official case" I recommend altering to "Some individuals involved in the original investigation and some researchers have argued that there are serious problems with the official case, or have suggested alternative scenarios and motives for the crime."  Motives are missing.  RFK stated that if president he would reopen his brother's case.  "They" wouldn't allow that.  I'll look for supporting sources.
There's an article for Assassination of John F. Kennedy in popular culture so it's relevant to mention Derren Brown's Assassin episode available on YouTube.  I'm not sure if it belongs here but it's also discussed on the talk pages of Robert F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories and Sirhan Sirhan.
--JasonCarswell (talk) 22:25, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conspiracy Improvements 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: " shortly after midnight PDT at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. He had just won the California presidential primaries in the 1968 election. He was pronouncecd dead at 11:44 AM on June 6, about 26 hours after he had been shot.[3]"  that is more than 26 hours  be close to 36 hours Newyearbaby (talk) 02:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: top paragraph

message: Elsewhere in the talk archives people were looking for more sources on the polka dot dress woman. 
There are many Wikipedia-style references in this article:
*Incomplete Justice. Part One: At the Ambassador Hotel. By Larry Hancock, 19 May 2008. Mary Ferrell Foundation.
--Timeshifter (talk) 08:09, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polka dot dress woman. References 

message: Los Angeles Police Department's Rampart Division was in charge:
"California has released voluminous files on the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy in 1968, including a document showing that 2,410 photographs that were evidence in the case were destroyed that year. A scholar who pushed for release of the files says the destruction is deeply suspicious and should be investigated. ... the police also destroyed door jambs and ceiling tiles from the kitchen of the Los Angeles Ambassador Hotel where Mr. Kennedy was gunned down. Mr. Stone and other experts maintain that those items might have shed light on how many bullets were fired and on whether there was a second gunman."
Above quote is from this article:
*Robert Kennedy Assassination Photos Burned. Associated Press (AP). April 21, 1988. New York Times.
--Timeshifter (talk) 08:38, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  2,410 evidence photos destroyed in 1968. Also, door jambs and ceiling tiles 

message: RFK Jr. did an interview with the Washington Post:
*Who killed Bobby Kennedy? His son RFK Jr. doesn’t believe it was Sirhan Sirhan. By Tom Jackman. May 26, 2018. Washington Post.
*Did L.A. police and prosecutors bungle the Bobby Kennedy assassination probe? By Tom Jackman. June 5, 2018. Washington Post.
*Bobby Kennedy’s son suspects 2nd gunman killed father. May 26, 2018. The Portland Press Herald. 
*RFK's children believe there was a second assassin with Sirhan Sirhan. By IrishCentral Staff. June 02, 2018. IrishCentral.
--Timeshifter (talk) 06:08, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  May 2018. 2 of RFK's children believe there was a 2nd gunman 

message: In the last paragraph of the lead, make the following change:"...he didn't act alone." --> "..he did not act alone." 69.166.120.135 (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done in two places in the article per MOS:N'T.  In other news, that's possibly my new favorite wikishortcut. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 21:18, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2020 

message: Please change four instances of "Ernard" to "Erhard" in the "Assassin's gun" section. 67.188.1.213 (talk) 04:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done Jack Frost (talk) 05:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like only three instances were changed, but thanks for getting the process started. 67.188.1.213 (talk) 06:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

text:  Done Rummskartoffel (talk) 09:57, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks much. 67.188.1.213 (talk) 17:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2020 

message: If you listen to actual recordings of Mr. Mankiewicz speaking, it's clear he is actually saying (bold words inserted, strikeout removed from original):
"I have a short announcement to read, which I will read at this time. Senator Robert Francis Kennedy died at 1:44 a.m. today, June 6, 1968. With Senator Kennedy at the time of his death were his wife Ethel, his sisters Mrs. Stephen Smith, Mrs. Patricia Lawford,  brother-in-law Mr. Stephen Smith,  his sister-in-law Mrs. John F. Kennedy. He was 42 years old. "
This is a very clear recording of everything after the first sentence: Death announcement  MrAureliusRTalk! 18:33, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Frank Mankiewicz quote is incorrect 

message: The article could perhaps need some formal review, checking it against the FA criteria. It was promoted eons ago, back in 2008. There are huge swaths of unsourced texts, as well as tags for inappropriate colloquialisms. I am also not positive that it is comprehensive, since the discourse around the shooting has changed significantly the last decade. The 'See also' should prolly also be nuked. Nutez (talk) 21:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAR needed