Talk:Alpha Phi Alpha/Archive 2

message: You guys are probably smarter than me, I just can't figure this out: If this fraternity was founded to help black people (African Americans if you wish), then why would they have a test forbidding entry to anyone with a skin darker than a brown paper bag? Because I don't know what sorts of bags you guys see usually, but if I look at mine. I'd probably fail the test after a few days at the beach. Explanations?
J. Cromwell
--84.176.90.89 19:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The supposed test grew out of a reactionary internal racism that exisited in black society for many years.  Some say it is still out there.  Basically, the closer to white you were, then supposedly you stood higher in "class".  A darker skinned person was considered to be closer to the negative stereotypes that were in the popular culture thana light skinned person.  There was even a Hudie Leadbetter (Leadbelly) song lyric about the attitude, "If you're brown, stick around, if you're black, get back, get back, get back," 
-- Bill 19:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The "paper bag test" was used by certain chapters, and there is no record that this was encouraged or condoned by the national organizationm.  These chapters did not invent colorism, however; they used personal, cultural and regional criteria in accepting inititates.  This form of racism is probably not something the chapters are proud of today, but it was a part of the their history and therefore part of Alpha's hisotry.   A careful review of members throughout the 100 year history of the organization will show that there are members of every hue in the human race, therefore; not all chapters employed the "paper bag test".   Ccson 04:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The alleged "paper bag test" within the Beta Chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha at Howard University is an urban legend promulgated by members of competing fraternities. It is easily disproved by viewing pictures from the chapter's history (showing varied hues of African-American men from very dark to very light), easily available, among other places, at Howard University's Library. The "paper bag test" is often orally cited by other fraternities as a reason for their respective founding, with the "test" often used as rationale or excuse for their own founders supposedly not gaining acceptance into Alpha. The claim has been found dubious even by the historians of other fraternities, who have never thought to include such claims in their history books.  The main page speaks to Thurgood Marshall's observation of "the test;"  Marshall was not an undergraduate member of Beta Chapter at Howard University which is what some here seem to assume.
please look at the reference provided on the main page number 44 and what is written on the main page.  thank you.
"In the selection of candidates for membership, certain chapters had not escaped challenges of racial stereotyping and allegations of colorism. In a biography of Justice Thurgood Marshall, the authors recounted how certain chapters of the fraternity used a "brown paper bag test" and would not consider students whose skin color was darker than the bag.[44] Former General President Belford Lawson, Jr. lamented this attitude and condemned initiation practices of snobbery and exclusivity, and said "Jesus Christ could not make Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity today; they would blackball Him because He was not hot enough".[45]"
64.131.205.160 02:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Paper Bag Test

message: Is a famous alpha, why is it being removed or questioned?
64.131.205.160 04:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marion Barry 

message: Already approved to have it inserted.  Look above 64.131.205.160 04:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pledging and Hazing 

message: Proposed removal of prototype.  Iota Phi Theta wasn't founded at howard, neither was Kappa Alpha Psi, Sigma Gamma Rho.  Who is to say that the howard chapter was the prototype.  Is there any documentation behind this?  
Beginning in 1908, the Howard chapter became the prototype for six of the remaining eight National Pan-Hellenic Council members, a predominantly African-American fraternal council
NinjaNubian 04:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the six would be the five founded at Howard University and Kappa Alpha Psi, in which 2 of their founders were students at Howard before tranferring to Indiana, plus they had some involvement with Alpha Phi Alpha while students at Howard. Ccson 20:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The book is biased and that's the point of Mr. Mason's article that is referenced.  According to Mr. Mason, the Kappa history book states two members were involved with another fraternity while students at Howard University.  What other fratenity could they be affiliated with between 1907 and 1911, but Alpha Phi Alpha?  Also, AKA founder Ethel Hedgeman Lyle has stated she started AKA as a direct result of her boyfriend Mr. Lyle who was a charter member of the Alpha's Beta chapter at howard, so Alpha was the prototype for a sorority.  If you read the History section of the article, you will see that the founders wanted to establish a fraternity similar to the white fraternities, but they did not make mention of any specific organization.  Ccson 04:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Alpha was charted on Howard in 1907.  There is no record of Sigma Pi Phi or the Masons as a charted group at Howard in between 1907-1911, or even in 2006. I mentioned the book because you asked for a source that would confirm that 2 Kappa founders were affiliated with Alpha while at Howard; I guess you discovered the sentence in the Kappa book which states 2 members did attend howard, and of course, being the great hisorian of black fraternities, you know that it could only have been Alpha Phi Alpha since Omega Psi Phi, although founded at Howard, Omega was founded after Kappa was, just as the kappas know, but refuse to print that in their history book.  I can understand why they would not, but this is an encylopedia with must present a Neutral and Unbiased Point of View.  Ccson 05:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prototype 

message: It is important to note if membership was instilled based on distinction or based on intake
NinjaNubian 04:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Frederick Douglass membership was approved by the Frederick Douglass Historical and Memorial Society and the society accpeted the shingle on behalf of Mr. Douglass. Think of it as the children of MLK Jr have the rights to accept whatever they want in the names of their father or mother, and the parents left wills attesting to this fact.  Also, you may believe what you want, but that doesn't make it so.  Ccson 04:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: when the national site is available for preview, I will get the membership statement and and add it to the article.  Readers will have to infer until a valid referenceable source regarding honorary status can be located. Ccson 14:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honorary 

message: The paper bag test was moved, modified and expanded into internal racism.
NinjaNubian 04:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: that text is included to show the result of Mr. Robeson being rewarded the "Alpha Medallion".  Ccson 14:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Internal Racism & Prejudice 

message: Thank goodness that the article is protected.  I am tired of people who simply do not have anything to do with their lives mess up a featured article about a 100 year-old African-American organization, which withstanded the test of time. ---- Bearly541 05:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the fact that Alpha was orginally limited to any "Negro Male" student is discussed in the Expansion and Consolidation section of the article.  The decision to open membership to all races and the reason for this decision and when the organization became interracial is also discussed in the History 1919-1949 section.  Ccson 03:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: there nothing to say,  once a member, members were not discrimated against because of skin color.  The fraternity used Colorism, (discussed in article) in accepting member.  This is external racism and that's the point of the Colorism article,  Again, this wasn't invented by Alpha and they weren't the last to employ it. Ccson 04:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: the fraternity's constitution stated that membership was open to any negro male.  Cetain chapters exhibited elite selection, which is mentioned, but that's never been the agenda of the national organization. Ccson 05:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You can't assume something and personal knowledge is not original research.  Of courese, it's not possible that one person would personal knowledge of the pledging progam in over 700 chapters.  Where is pledging still occuring within the fraternity?  this would be illegal and the persons involved would not be considered members by the national office.  The membership intake policy is stated on the Alpha national website and on many chapter website, plus its become common knowledge that pledging no longer exists.  Any individual who engages in this pledge process knows, or should know that it's all for nothing. Ccson 14:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Protection

message: Since it isn't stated in the national website.  If other information stated by the national website can challenge this we should keep it.  Just because one chapter or a few chapters use it as a mascot doesn't mean it represents the fraternity as a whole.  NinjaNubian 18:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Ape as a symbol 

message: I propose to add to the list of famous alpha's vaughn lowery
http://myspace.com/vaughnlowery
if you don't know who he is
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5RgG7p9oW18
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dG3VURwMxPA
i move to add him by sunday unless there are any protests. 
NinjaNubian 17:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the article cannot contain all names of Alpha men, famous or not.  There's an category for alpha phi alpha brothers, in which any member who has an article can be posted to this category.  In fact, there are over 100 names in the category so far, but all names don't appear in the article.  One because it's not necessary, and two this would make the article longer than it is now.  67.34.214.186 16:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

text: As famous as he may be, i have never heard of him. What is his accomplishment of fame that would mesh with the goals and ideas of this orgnaization.  Is there a page in wikipedia for the famous individual?  I agree that all members may be worthy of listing 2 words of their name, but there are almost 200,000 members.  Ccson 04:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: being on talk shows does't make you famous.  what has he done that embodies the goals of this organization.  You can't just print his name, what has he done other than dance around in christmas box with boxer on? Ccson 05:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm asking you to enumerate his many accomplishments and why these accomplishments warrant his name from the almost 200,000 names to appear in the article. Ccson 14:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Jesse Owens was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1976 by Gerald Ford and (posthumously) the Congressional Gold Medal by George H. W. Bush on March 28, 1990. In 1984, a street in Berlin was renamed for him and the Jesse Owens Realschule/Oberschule (a secondary school) is in Berlin-Lichtenberg.Ccson 04:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Again, I have never heard of Mr. Lowery and have no objection to his success, but good looks is not really a talent, and your comparison to Jim Carey is like comparing Apples to Oranges. Ccson 04:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't agree that looks is a trait, but I know its not a talent.  You still haven't given a compelling reason what this person has done that embodies Alpha, mainly First of All, Servants of All, We Shall Transcend All, or Manly Deeds, Scholarship and Love for All Mankind.  Also, you haven't provided documented proof that he is an Alpha. Ccson
his myspace page shows that he is a member of alpha phi alpha.  he went to college at cornell. you can provide proof that he isn't an alpha, but thus far it is accepted that he is.    past that, he is the first alpha to appear on the tonight show, be on america's next top model,  and be a supermodel.  thus, proof.  thank you, inclusion by thur sept 7th.  NinjaNubian 05:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous Alpha's 

message: I vote to remove this sentence.  
"Alpha men were pioneers and at the forefront of the civil rights struggle."  It is innately false.  Pioneer would suggest that Alpha men were the first to bring about the civil rights movement.  Vernon John's who isn't a members of Alpha Phi Alpha is known as the father of the civil right movement.  Marcus Garvey is also a pioneer of the civil rights movement, but wasn't a member of Alpha Phi Alpha.    Please bring about strong supporting evidence by saturday september 9th or this sentence shall be removed.  NinjaNubian 18:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In your opinion! Ccson 04:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: the defintion you supplied indicates one does not have to be first, just "among the earliest". thanks you for proving that Alpha is indeed a Pioneer in the civil rights movement as well as other movements affecting people of color and the world.  67.34.214.186 00:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentence concerning civil rights removal 

message: I do not think Ninja Nubian is a real Alpha.  Thus, his/her suggestions should be taken as a grain of salt, since he/she was once banned before.   The name SCREAMS "perp." Bearly541 17:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NinjaNubian

message: The sentence of " The fraternity later to a second chapter was chartered at Howard University in 1907. "  has been replaced with "The fraternity swiftly expanded when a second chapter was chartered at Howard University in 1907."
The use of the word swift takes away from an NPOV.  
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=swiftly
CCson, i'd like to know why revising a word from swiftly to later on is in your point of view considered to be vandalism.  please resond by saturday septmeber 9th 2006 with a concrete answer by or else  "later on" will be used in the sentence.  NinjaNubian 14:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I addressed in when you asked the very same question in the Civil Rights section above.  I will print your statement and my resonse here:  http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pioneer
pioneer -  
1. a person who is among those who first enter or settle a region, thus opening it for occupation and development by others.  
2. one who is first or among the earliest in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress: pioneers in cancer research.  
since alpha men were not pioneers i move to remove the sentence by saturday september 9th.  64.131.205.160 04:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

text: the defintion you supplied indicates one does not have to be first, just "among the earliest". thanks you for proving that Alpha is indeed a Pioneer in the civil rights movement as well as other movements affecting people of color and the world.  67.34.214.186 00:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Plus, this sentence has been here during the peer review and Featured Article candidate review.  No one has objected to this.  Please move on to something else.  Ccson 03:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swiftly 

message: This edit war has gone on long enough. Please discuss your problems here, assume good faith, do not throw vandalism templates on each other's user talk pages, be civil. And remember you don't own this article. Errabee 16:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW, I placed this page on WP:RfC. Errabee 16:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stop this edit war 

message: There is some dispute as to whether members of Alpha Phi Alpha were pioneers in the Civils rigths movement begun in 1955.
There is a sentence in the article Alpha men were pioneers and at the forefront of the civil rights struggle.. User NinjaNubian is disputing that members were not pioneers, but had key roles.  I provided the reference for the sentence   where the Howard University PBS website states The history of these men is the history of America, and their place in the vanguard of the Civil Rights struggle is unparalleled.  It's clear to anyone that Martin Luther King Jr., Thurgood Marshall and Andrew Young were vanguard and at the forefront, and not just key players in the civil rights movement.  Plus, Alpha members were at the head of the NAACP, SCLC and the NUL.  The website NinjaNubian supplies as his reference is a biased site against "hazing", but even if it's not biased, why does it contain text about a fraternity claiming to have members as pioneers.  I belive that this text was written just to directly address the sentence in the article since no where else on the web does Alpha claim to have been pioneers.  The adjective Pioneer was chosen for this article in place of word "Vanguard" which appeared in the reference.  He has created his own statement on a biased website and using those statements as proof of his own opinion.  What names come to mind when the world thinks of leaders of the African-American Civil Rights Movement (1955-1968)? unsigned comment by Ccson
Vernon John's Father of the civil rights movement
the father of the civil rights movement is vernon john's.   he is the pioneer of the movement, starting it in 1920.  http://www.vernonjohns.org/tcal001/vjcrtstr.html   .  Vernon John's was not a member of Alpha Phi Alpha.  NinjaNubian 17:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment: Alpha Phi Alpha, Pioneers of American Civil Rights Movement

message: What is wrong with "played a key role"  Pioneers and vanguard are quite misleading.   the Niagra movement (which was heavily assisted with whites) and the NAACP (which was heavily founded with the help of whites) were role players but not central like the father of the civil rights movement vernon johns.   Vernon Johns is the father of the american civil rights movement, startig it in the 1920's.  it ended in 63.  thus alpha phi alpha weren't pioneers, but played key roles.  
Martin Luther King was an Alpha, Rev. Jesse Jackson is an Omega, and Ralph Alberthy was a Kappa. Malcolm X belonged to a fraternity -- he was a member of the Nation of Islam.  Thurgood Marshall  was an Alpha.  I am not too sure about W.E.B. DuBois...I think he was an Alpha. If you count women, both Rosa Parks and Coretta Scott King were honorary AKAs.  Dorothy Height was a past YMCA president, Delta Sigma Theta president, Barbara Jordan (Delta) was the first black Congressman from the South as well as Shirley Chisolm (Delta), the first black Congresswoman. Was Medgar Evers a part of an NPHC organization?
this only makes the current statement stronger.  7 others vs maybe 4 alphas
pioneer  http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pioneer 
a person who is among those who first enter or settle a region, thus opening it for occupation and development by others.   Mykungfu 08:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Key role 

message: the original password to ninjanubian was lost.. i created another account.  thanks for understanding  Mykungfu 21:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarfication  Ninjanubian = mykungfu 

message: No, I'm not a sockpuppet of CCson, or anyone else for that manner.  In addition any communication I have had with anyone else is documented.  I understand how the person vandalizing this site might wish to give that impression for someone else, since they have made multiple harassing edits under various IDs and IPs, however, and are in jeopardy of being blocked. Robotam 16:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: NinjaNubian, I would like to point out the Bold, Revert and Discuss cycle. It states that you can be bold with adding information, but if it gets reverted, do not revert back, but start a discussion and wait until consensus is reached. Although this is not a formal guideline, it is a conduct you might want to adopt. Errabee 19:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sockpuppet Accusations 

message: i'm unable to verify his membership in the fraternity.  StrangeApples 16:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: see List of Alpha Men Ccson 13:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hubert H. Humphrey 

message: I'm wondering what makes the contributions of Skip Mason any different from a personal website, opinion article or editorial..
Reading this, I wonder if it really is less objective and more subjective 
"As a historian who recognizes that laying a foundation for any period of history, I find their omission inexcusable and without merit.  Permit me to share some a few statements (and of course my personal commentary in between) from their books:  
"     
http://www.skipmason.com/hm/hm08.htm
on some of his website pages  he states "DISCLAIMER: This page is not affiliated with the National Organization. I am not the Historian of the fraternity, just a brother who is and has always been thirsty for more knowledge on this organization. The information provided has been thoroughly researched and documented and is brought to you with all the fraternal love and spirit I possess. Sources are available upon request. 
"
http://www.skipmason.com/about.htm
He's not the fraternity's historian, but he is a historian and the Fraternity's Chairman of Historical Commission.
http://www.alphaphialpha.net/alpha/today/committees.html  (written by 143.166.226.40   11:00, 30 September 2006)
alright,he is a the chairmen of National Chairmen & Coordinators "Historical Commission Herman Mason", but his website claims the page that is sited is not affiliated with the national organization, it states that all knowledge has been researched, but there is no documentation.  The quote listed on the Alpha Phi Alpha page is not NPOV, and can be viewed as being an attack.  64.131.205.160 15:41, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Skip Mason 

message: I would like to ask if it is really a fair use to have :Image:Robeson10.jpg at this article. The US stamp image is copyrighted and isn't it enough post it at Paul Robeson only? Fair-use images require some contributions to the article but I am unsure of it here.--Jusjih 16:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The image is used in one article only now. My general thought is that one fair-use image in one relevant article has the best fairness. A fair-use image in too many or no articles is unfair. An article with too many fair-use images may not be fair.--Jusjih 17:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image:Robeson10.jpg fair use?