Talk:List of converts to Christianity/Archive 3

message: It seems to me that this section could maybe be broken down further into grouping according to specific religious belief, if possible. So, for instance, it might be broken into traditional Egyptian religion (Isis-Osiris-et al), traditional Roman religion (Jupiter, ...), indiginous Amerind religion, and so on. Opinions? John Carter 14:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paganism section 

message: I would request that Abo of Tiflis be added to the list of converts from Islam, with the text that he was an eighth century convert from Georgia who was later beheaded for his conversion. Also add Felix, one of the Martyrs of Córdoba with Aurelius and Natalia. The source to be cited in both cases is The Penguin Dictionary of Saints, 3rd edition, by Donald Attwater and Catherine Rachel John. New York:Penguin Books, 1993. . Thank you. John Carter 15:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can only assume that the above is a joke in at best poor taste, until and unless some specific evidence from the page cited is included. I also note that Bus stop is continuing to make what are basically irrational and counterproductive edits to this page on a seemingly unrelenting basis. John Carter 15:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The question as stated makes no immediate sense to me, as I cannot be sure that I correctly understand it. I think perhaps it might help Bus stop to realize that the inclusion of the  at the top of this page is there because some of the people referenced in the article are living, not that those standards also be applied to those who are demonstrably dead. I really think that user might better spend some time actually paying attention to some of the policies and guidelines referenced rather than continuing to ask these questions which would require only a minimum level of expenditure of effort on his/her part. Unless, of course, such things are beyond his understanding, in which case he might better post questions on the policy pages directly involved. John Carter 16:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, by trying to turn every discussion on this page into a discussion of a topic which has already been answered a number of times you are displaying the kind of problematic editing that you have unfortunately displayed before. Please allow people to suggest other changes to the article which are directly referenced and supported without facing the possibility of your trying to turn that discussion into yet another attempt on your part to continue your own self-described obsession with Bob Dylan. John Carter 16:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be noted that after the request for modification of the page was placed, User:Bus stop removed his/her own comments which were clearly off-topic and at least a little difficult to understand. His/her reasons for doing so, are, of course, his own, whatever they are. However, even that party seems to have agreed that those comments were irrelevant to the request at hand. John Carter 17:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: John Carter -- But you don't have to be offensive. WP:CIVIL is a vague, but real, thing. Bus stop 17:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From someone who regularly engages in unsubstantiated personal attacks on those who disagree with him, the comment above is more than a little amusing. John Carter 17:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested changes 

message: Pursuant to the fair compromise proposed above, and the follow up suggestion that this be handled as a section within the article, I request the following edit.  Please add the following section before "See Also":
:I've disabled the editprotected request. This page will be unprotected in a couple of days, and then anyone will be able to edit it. The section below also doesn't list any people, it only talks about people vaguely. This page is very controversial, so editprotected should only be used here for things like typos and glaring errors. Otherwise, the protection will fade quickly enough. Also, this talk page should probably be archived soon; it's huge. Cheers. --MZMcBride 03:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for New Section

message: I request that the new List of notable converts to Buddhism and the currently single-entry List of notable converts to Scientology be added to the "See also" section. John Carter 16:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as we are requesting notable convert article, I request List of notable converts to Atheism.--Sefringle 06:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the above two are already, if only barely, extant. I personally would have no objections to such a list as mentioned above, though. We do have a huge List of atheists, which is actually rather intimidating to try to page through to find anyone who claims to have had religious belief earlier. I note Richard Dawkins described Douglas Adams as a convert to atheism on the latter's page, but I'm not sure if that is sufficient for inclusion. So far, I haven't found any others which explicitly state having had earlier beliefs before becoming atheists. I am assuming that, as atheism per se has no formal induction ceremonies, we would be using the subject's own statements as verification of their atheism? Anyway, I welcome such a page, and am leaving a message at Wikipedia:WikiProject Atheism requesting one. I think they're probably the ones best informed on the subject. John Carter 15:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Atheism#New article request for the discussion there. As most atheists are individual converts, it looks like they may be adding details of earlier faiths to the List of atheists where such is practicable. When the page is unblocked, I hope to add that list to the "See also" section. John Carter 16:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested addition 

message: You do not put a Jew on a list of Christians, which is what this list is, despite the attempts to contrive the list's parameters. You not put disclaimers in place to correct that error. The above discussion for a special "section" for Bob Dylan and a few other people is just one more in a series of disclaimers (your word, not mine) and disclaimers don't right wrongs. Writing a list correctly in the first place corrects inaccuracies best. Dylan belongs on no list of converts. He was born a Jew, experimented with Christianity briefly (a long time ago) and has been a Jew ever since. He does not have to convert back to Judaism. His status as a Jew is established for life by the virtue of having been born a Jew, and in the absence of active negation of that Jewish status. There is no evidence of active negation of Dylan's Judaism. He is therefore just an ordinary Jew, not different in any way from the majority of Jews. I think the Wikipedia Christianity project ought to get Christians for this list, not Jews. In point of fact there are 2 billion Christians in this world. There are only 15 million Jews in this world. Yet the Wikipedia Christianity project apparently needs a Jew to fill out this list. You don't put a Jew on a list of converts to Christianity, even with all of the disclaimers concocted because you don't want to give the impression that the Jew is a Christian. Or do you? The Pope, in recent years, has had to apologize to the Jews of the world for the injustices done against them over a period encompassing many centuries. Those injustices included forced conversion. Why is this list (these editors) forcing a Jew onto what is titled a List of converts to Christianity? Is that not akin to forced conversion? Forced conversion, between Jews and Christians, has been a one-way street. Only Christians forced Jews to convert to Christianity. Not the other way around. Jews did not ever force Christians to convert to Judaism. The notion is laughable. Whose emotions are out of control? Whose insecurities lead them to brutalize another people? The Jews don't accept the New Testament. So what? Can Christians not be secure in their own beliefs without forcing a Jew to accept their beliefs? I think the Wikipedia Christianity project should act responsibly and confine their list to those who actually are Christians and not try to contrive the parameters for this list to include Jews. Dylan happens to be an ordinary American Jew, no different in any way from your average American Jew, or any Jew in the world for that matter. It is his rock star status that makes him irresistible to the editors demanding his presence on this list. It is his charisma. I think the Wikipedia Christianity project is displaying out of control emotionalism in gripping onto the Jew, Dylan, as if for dear life. Bus stop 20:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then request comment, mediation, or arbitration. Otherwise, this discussion has been ongoing for some time, and, until and unless substantiation of some of the claims above is actually made, continuation of this seemingly concluded discussion would seem to serve no useful purpose. John Carter 20:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for copying and pasting the same rant that you've been propagating for the past month or so. As you tend to ignore all responses directed to you and consistently feel the need to insert warped accusations about the motivations of other editors, it would seem that sites like these might be a more appropriate receptacle for your views. However, if you would cease making accusations and would actually begin discussing things productively, then I suppose the conversation is worth continuing. --C.Logan 20:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bus Stop you still actually have brought no evidence that Dylan has practiced Judaism or showed that he believes in any of the fundemental tenets of Judaism since after he stated he did have some Christian belief. Therefore not only is your request to remove him from the list groundless but also is the request to move him to a section of people that are no longer Christians. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 20:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gustav- that's the funny thing. Even considering that fact, we are moving him to such a section. It was essentially our idea, and Cleo proposed a similar one recently, which revived the proposal. We've already made it apparent that the new section will make it more than clear why the individuals within that section are listed, and what their current status is. They won't be intermixed with any other individuals. However, given the consistent opposition to even this motion, it seems that Bus stop is thoroughly opposed to any mention of Dylan's conversion, and finds it preferable to censor Wikipedia. --C.Logan 20:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It should be noted that I proposed a seperate article for "Notable Converts to Christianity who returned to their former religions", not a seperate section. I also proposed that the parameters of this article be restored so that the scope of the list is consistent with all other such "convert lists" contained on Wikipedia. I see no reason for Wikipedia to make special concessions for Christianity as opposed to other religions. Doing so strikes me as inconsistent with WP:NPOV. Cleo123 04:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Well of course you can create the new section but we would need a reliable source to show that either Dylan has either renounced Christianity or that he practices or at least believes the main tenets of Judaism to put him in there. If one is not provided I will have to move him out of the section.Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 21:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand what you're saying. Considering Dylan's own statements which make an ambiguity of his religious beliefs (but tend toward non-religious or syncretic beliefs), in addition to some public involvement with Jewish causes (which is interpreted by some sites as a show of a return to Judaism, while other sources claim that the actions are cultural and non-religious- the sources given even claim that his contact with Jewish organizations was from a Christian perspective), I believe the most non-controversial position would be in such a section, with a clarification of the actual ambiguity of his beliefs post-Christianity (if it is indeed 'post' at all). Whew, that was quite a sentence. --C.Logan 21:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Agreed. We have time to iron out the specific phrasing before the block is listed, if anyone wants to propose any. John Carter 21:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, come on you can't make special allowances for Dylan just because his inclusion here upsets some people here who have made a hell of a noise about it. If there is no reliable source that proves that Dylan has renounced Christianity or that he has reverted to practicing or at least believing in Judaism or he has changed to another religious or anti religious state then Dylan should stay on the from Judaism section until a reliable source can be found to indicate his current position. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 21:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Point taken. However, as per the Talk: Bob Dylan page, particularly the great body of evidence provided by User:Metzenberg, for which I personally am quite grateful, there is substantial evidence that Dylan is now actively practicing Judaic religion in some form. I would assume some of the sources used in the recent comments on that page would be used as the evidence of his having taken up practice of Judaism again. However, as stated on that page, that evidence does not (partially as a lack of documentation of conversion in Judaism) necessarily show proof of conversion or absence of belief in some syncretic version of Christianity and Judaism or anything else. On that basis, I think adding a comment to the effect of "is currently a practicing Jew" might be the best phrasing, possibly with his separate comment that he does not follow any organized religion. Like I said earlier, the exact phrasing of the comment, and what should be included in it, is something we now have the opportunity to discuss and hopefully come to some sort of conclusion about. John Carter 22:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What we see is a clear commitment to abuse. Dylan is a Jew. This is a List of notable converts to Christianity. Obviously Dylan does not belong on this list. What you have is out of control emotionalism. What other explanation to the denial of rationality? What we see in the above comments is a clear commitment to continue using this article as a locus of abusive behavior towards Jews. I can only assume the editors see Dylan symbolic of all Jews, but I have no way of knowing that. What other explanation for the irrationality of placing a Jew on what is a list of Christians? This abuse is not at all of a minor nature. In the face of the abuse that I am referring to and the above comments indicating more of the same I seriously feel this article is irredeemable. The above editors are demonstrating a commitment to continuing and ongoing abuse of at least one Jew on this article. My personal feeling is that Bob Dylan is meant to be symbolic of all Jews. He (Bob Dylan) is clearly Jewish. There is no doubt about that. He was born to parents both of whom were Jewish. He was bar mitzvah. Of course the fact that he is a rock star, possessing enormous charisma, about as high profile a creative individual as is alive today in popular culture, is not irrelevant. The events of 27 years ago are almost entirely irrelevant today. I don't think there is really anyone who honestly doubts that. What we have is out of control emotionalism and a possessiveness that wants to possess even that which is not owned. I don't see any reason why any rational editor should tolerate this abuse. This list was created in the atmosphere of abuse. It was sleight of hand that created this abusive list on January 17 of 2006. The idea at that time was to create a list containing, at that time, only three names. One of those three names was Bob Dylan. And the idea was to put the note next to the name Bob Dylan reading, from Judaism, to which he later reconverted. Here is the first entry, in its entirety: Bob Dylan, from Judaism to which he later reconverted. That wording has changed form and been removed entirely numerous times in the history of this article. I contend that the abuse does not go away no matter what wording you use. You simply do not put a Jew on a list of Christians. "Convert" to Christianity (as used in the title) means "Christian." Convert is a noun in the title of this article. What does that noun refer to? That noun refers to a Christian. This article has removed additional wording, the counterpart of which can be found on the List of notable converts to Judaism. The List of notable converts to Judaism carries the tag at the top of it which reads, This page is a list of Jews. Why has the List of notable converts to Christianity removed the corresponding tag for that list? The List of notable converts to Christianity used to have on it the tag reading, This page is a list of Christians. Why has that tag been removed? Dylan does not happen to be a Christian. Why the contradiction between the title and the fact that Dylan is in point of fact not a Christian? Bus stop 14:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What we have above is someone who is continuing to make statements based on unsupported claims who refuses to take the actions which are called for to resolve disputes such as this as per the WP:DR page. As long as he continues to make these unsupported allegations, without providing any evidence of his claims or showing any interest in taking the steps outlined on the page referenced, he has no reason to believe that continuing to complain in the manner above will produce any results. John Carter 14:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine it is clear to anyone that is not Cleo123 or BusStop that they have been carrying out a campaign of bullying and harrassment on this page in order to try and get their own way in removing Bob Dylan on the list. They have invented conspiracies that his inclusion on this list is meant to insult Jews or swell the pride of Christians or whatever and then used these imagined conspiracies to claim that they are being attacked and belittled merely by Dylan's inclusion on the list. They clearly do not intend to be reasonable but instead to bully.  Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 15:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wow! What a shocking misrepresentation of facts. In the first place, multiple editors have voiced concerns about the contrived parameters that have been added to this article during the course of this dispute. Likewise, several editors, apart from User:Bus stop and myself have objected to Dylan's inclusion on this list. Editors on your side of the argument have chosen to ignore other dissenting opinions, in favor of a focused assault on User:Bus stop. Apparently, my defense of this user has made me an additional target of abuse. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel, I would suggest that you review my contributions to this and other "Dylan" related discussions. You will find that I have not made any allusions to prostelytizing, nor have I referred to the article as "an insult to Jews". Indeed, I have actively discouraged User:Bus stop from speculating as to the motivations of others. I have stated very clearly that although Dylan is an interesting case in point, my primary focus is the article's recently broadened and potentially misleading parameters that could adversely affect any number of celebrities in the future. Cleo123 03:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: What Sefringle said was that people who have abandoned a faith should be added to a List of former (X)'s, like the specifically mentioned List of former Muslims. I note that there is a very short List of former Christians, which has all of 5 entries referenced. I can certainly see having appropriate content moved to such lists, if there is sufficient content and/or sufficient cause to justify maintaining as a separate entity. The question then arises whether certain parties would accept Dylan's inclusion on that list. I'm not sure I can answer that question. Also, I wonder (and request input from others) what the specific qualifications for inclusion on a list of "former" anythings would be, particularly in the rather free-form religious environment we are now in. Also, should someone who specifically qualifies for inclusion on both lists (on the basis of conversion to and form Christianity, in this case) be on both lists or not? Like I said, I welcome and request reasonable responses, preferably those indicating some specific aspect of some extant policy or guideline as their justification. John Carter 18:06, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  You do not put a Jew on a list of Christians