Talk:Nelson's Pillar

message: I've been leaving notes around asking whether anyone would be interested in getting an appropriate article ready as a possible WP:TFA for the above date, the centenary of the start of the Easter Rising. I've not had much response, so I'm looking myself at likely articles. Now, this is not the most obvious candidate; but I think there would be grave difficulties in getting any of the main Rising articles through the various review hurdles in time for the anniversary. This  is shorter, less contentious, and developed enough to be doable as a featured article in the time available. It's also an interesting, even poignant story. I'm willing to give it a go, and have plenty of good sources (including Kennedy's book) but if possible I like first to hear from any other interested editors. Brianboulton (talk) 00:21, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be happy to help out where I can (though that won't be much). I did add links to Nelson's Column and Monuments and memorials to Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson in the 'see also' section. That is really a suggestion that links be incorporated into the body of the text somehow. What I'm trying to suggest is that the context of other memorials erected at the same time be included, i.e. to expand a bit on the sentence in the lead: "among the first and grandest monuments". Where did it stand in terms of size and expense and fame when compared to the other major memorials? Carcharoth (talk) 13:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

text: I haven't tackled the lead at all at this point, and the wording as it appears now will likely be wholly replaced. The point about other equivalent monuments is a good one; the obvious comparison is with the Wellington Monument, which ought to get a mention somewhere. I will devise an appropriate sentence. As to Ulysses, this is one of several mentions that will be covered in a properly-organised section yet to be drafted. Brianboulton (talk) 17:59, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. I was just reading through this (looks a good source) which says: "One proposal was to move it to the Phoenix Park as a companion piece to the Wellington monument. But that idea was dismissed: the Pillar would be dwarfed by the obelisk; 134 feet to the tip of the statue compared to 205 feet to the tip of the much bulkier obelisk.". I suspect the Fallon book probably covers this already, but maybe that 1998 article was one of the earlier sources. I hear the Fallon book has lots and lots of pictures. :-) (I was slightly puzzled by the [unexplained] references to 'Gogarty' along with Yeats and Joyce as being among those for whom the monument was 'much loved', presumably Oliver St. John Gogarty?).  Carcharoth (talk) 18:23, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: 24 April 2016

message: "Between the 1860s and 1911, Nelson was joined by monuments to Daniel O'Connell, William Smith O'Brien and Charles Stuart Parnell, as well as Sir John Gray and the temperance campaigner Father Matthew."
I went and looked up pictures of these statues to maybe use as additional images in this article (though that is a bit of a stretch - a artwork of the Blakeney statue would have been ideal, but that may not exist). I am not sure where they exist in relation to where the Pillar was, but I found one artwork of the O'Connell statue with the Pillar in the background and added that to the gallery below with a modern photo with the Spire in the background - a nice contrast. Two other galleries as well, with images for consideration (though not as a gallery, as images in the article if appropriate - I am presenting them as galleries here for ease of viewing).
File:FRENCH(1891) p332 STATUE OF DANIEL O'CONNELL.jpg|1891 artwork of O'Connell statue, with Pillar in background
File:OConnellMonument.JPG|2005 photo of O'Connell statue, with Spire in background
File:William Smith O’Brien Statue Dublin 2009 09 27.JPG|O'Brien statue
File:Memorial to Charles Parnell.jpg|Parnell statue
File:Father Mathew Statue O'Connell Street.JPG|Mathew statue
File:Millennium spire (8197403318).jpg|Gray statue
File:O'Connell Street from Nelson's Pillar in 1964.jpg|View in 1964 from the Pillar looking south along O'Connell Street to the O'Connell monument
File:View from top of Nelson's Pillar, Sackville Street (O'Connell Street), Dublin.jpg|1921 view looking down from the Pillar to people at its base
File:Pillar2.jpg|Entrance - no date and provenance
File:NelsonP2.jpg|Children on viewing platform - no date and provenance
File:Nelson14.jpg|Viewing platform - poor quality and - no date and provenance
Would be nice to have images of the entrance and viewing platform, but see commons:User talk:Foxhunter22 (the uploader of those three images) and Wikipedia:Media copyright questions#File:No18.jpg. Might be worth contacting that user to see what the source of these photos is. Carcharoth (talk) 13:06, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the Foxhunter images is safe to use, including those presently in the article gallery which will be removed. While it would be nice to use the entrance and viewing platform images, they are not so essential, in my view, as to warrant the time required to hunt down their sources, particularly as neither is old enough (1950s, probably) to establish PD with certainty. Note: there are excellent images of the entrance in the external link "Old Dublin Town". On the other monument images listed above, they are mostly not within this article's scope. If someobody wishes to create O'Connell Street monuments, then they will be useful and pertinent; here they are tangential at best. Brianboulton (talk) 18:44, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood. This was why I didn't put them in the article without discussing first. The only one that I did put in the article, was removed (as discussed elsewhere). I have now finished a more thorough sweep through Commons to pick up on pictures that include the Pillar, mostly only incidental. I am hopeful I may have found a couple more that are directly of the pillar, which haven't been proposed here before. I will make a gallery of those here and at Commons. That will enable those who follow the link to Commons to see a proper gallery over there. Carcharoth (talk) 19:14, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

text: One puzzle solved - it was George Palmer Beater (not Baxter). Many sources out there are repeating this error. Hopefully this correction will start the slow process of reversing that spread of misinformation (where-ever it originated from). Carcharoth (talk) 01:06, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record, the text referring to 'G. P. Baxter' was added 18 June 2004 and persisted until being removed on 27 August 2015. The correct G. P. Beater was added on 13 March 2016. This is only one example of many errors and corrections made over the course of the history of most articles in Wikipedia. It is unfortunate that this error also exists outside Wikipedia. Whether the online sources that currently refer to G.P. Baxter were misled by Wikipedia is not clear, but that may have happened as printed sources don't as far as I can tell make this error. Carcharoth (talk) 14:14, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images of Nelson's Pillar and related subjects 

message: Among the images I recently removed, there was one fair use image (:File:Nelsons Pillar Dublin2.jpg). The source information is not good enough there, IMO, and as we have the National Library of Ireland image of the bombed column, there probably isn't enough justification to have any fair use images in this article, but adding this section in case it is worth discussing. Carcharoth (talk) 13:13, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use images

message: The National Library of Ireland catalogue can be searched for images. Some examples I found (others may want to look for more) are:
*Order of the procession, on laying the first stone (1808)
*Sackville Street, Dublin (1860-1880)
*Nelson's Pillar (this one is already uploaded from the British Library here)
*View of the Post Office & Nelson's Pillar (Brocas engraving)
*George IV visit to Dublin in 1821 (flag on Pillar)
*The G.P.O. and Nelson's Pillar, O'Connell Street, Dublin, a nice inter-war image, but unlikely to be freely licensed
Some of these may be better than existing images. Depends on whether there is the time to work on this aspect of the article or not, or whether the existing images suffice. Carcharoth (talk) 22:26, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: National Library of Ireland images

message: As well as the mention in Ulysses (novel) by James Joyce, the Pillar is mentioned in a poem (Dublin) by Louis MacNeice. Both quoted here. Carcharoth (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There was an earlier sentence in this version of the article before the recent changes: "Oliver St John Gogarty described it as "the grandest thing we have in Dublin" in As I Was Going Down Sackville Street." Leaving this note here as a reminder for when this section gets re-worked. Carcharoth (talk) 18:26, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

text: And from the Dublin City Public Libraries photostream on Flickr: O'Connell Monument, Nelson's Pillar, O'Connell Street, June 1962, with a quotation from Strumpet City (1969) by James Plunkett. There will be many such throwaway references, but collecting them here in case they are of use. Carcharoth (talk) 19:10, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I have the cultural refs you mention, and a few others... In redrafting this section, selection is important; "throwaway" references in books such as Plunkett's are ten a penny, and the section could easily become a dumping ground for each and every time the Pillar is mentioned in any novel with an Irish background.  Acknowleged literature (e.g. Yeats, Gogarty, Joyce, Austin Clarke and MacNeice} is a different matter. Brianboulton (talk) 16:39, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Definitely avoid the section becoming a dumping ground for throwaway references. Any quotes or mentions in cultural works need to be backed up by serious discussion in secondary literature. Having said that, I have a small collection I put together today, which I'll put here for consideration. Carcharoth (talk) 22:01, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural references

message: These entries here may be of use (from the Irish Architectural Archive's Dictionary of Irish Architects). Carcharoth (talk) 01:53, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: A footnote here states that there was a stone sarcophagus placed over the Trafalgar panel and that the sarcophagus had been removed by 1866. This sarcophagus is visible in this artwork. A crop of this artwork would show both the sarcophagus and an example of the inscriptions. There were renovations and repairs that took place in 1868 (the architect was Sandham Symes), so maybe that is related in some way. Carcharoth (talk) 02:25, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Architectural sources 

message: George Petrie (artist) should probably get a mention because: (a) this artwork is one of his; and (b) because other people have highlighted his work, such as here and here. Carcharoth (talk) 03:01, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Art history 

message: I found a source that said where the original entrance location was - it was on the west side of the monument according to Whelan in Reinventing Modern Dublin: Streetscape, Iconography and the Politics of Identity (2003): "The entrance was positioned to the west side of the monument, approached by a flight of steps which brought the visitor beneath the street level under the pillar to where the spiral stairs of 168 steps commenced."
I also found an additional source, a 72-page work called A Monument in the City: Nelson's Pillar and Its Aftermath (1998) by John O'Regan. I presume later sources used this, but it might have more details to add. It was where I found more details of the sarcophagus (not a real sarcophagus of course, just an architectural/sculptural feature): "In the collection of architectural drawings in the National Library there are four Francis Johnston drawings of Nelson's Pillar. [...] The second sheet is a sketch of the Pillar as it was executed [...] This is an important drawing as it shows the sarcophagus which has since been removed." I think O'Regan is quoting from Henchy's 1948 article in the Dublin Historical Record, so maybe those with full access to that could add a sentence about this?
:Henchy's article mentions that the sarcophagus was on the south side and was removed before 1866. He also gives details of the old entrance on the west side. I have added a sentence to the article confirming the location of the original entrance. Brianboulton (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sarcophagus and original entrance location 

message: A couple of points about the British and Irish legislatures and the bills relating to the Pillar:
*This edit replaced the 'Nelson Pillar Act, 1969' source I had created a citation template for. It would be good to see this brought back, IMO, because: (a) the page itself actually shows the full text of the bill (the link can be changed to the full text if needed) and could be of interest to readers of the article. It is also a better source for factual details of the bill, as opposed to the source to a debate in the Irish Senate.
:*OK, I've restored the Bill source (I think it was removed in error when I revised the section. Brianboulton (talk) 21:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: *On balance I believe this would be excesssive detail. Sheehy-Skeffington's point is a useful one, but in the main it's the cosequences of these acts, not the detailed debates, which are our concern. Brianboulton (talk) 21:43, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish and British parliamentary debates 

message: Starting a section to discuss the potential material relating to other monuments. The ones that should be mentioned, IMO, are:
*Nelson's Column - seems obvious to compare cost, height and timing. I did read somewhere that some criticised the Pillar in Dublin because of a lack of proper carvings. That might have been expanded on somewhere in the histories and commentaries. But maybe not - have struggled to find much here.
*Wellington Monument, Dublin - several sources compare the Pillar and this monument, raised in Dublin to another British hero of the Napoleonic Wars, but which didn't suffer the fate of the Pillar.
*Britannia Monument - very similar in design (same panels), and by William Wilkins, so the connection is obvious there.
Are there any other monuments that this one has been compared and contrasted with? Maybe Nelson's Column, Montreal as an example of another early column? Carcharoth (talk) 21:16, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: *Definitely the Trafalgar Square column needs a mention - some of the comparative details might be footnoted. Wellington's obelisk in Phoenix Park is also worthy of comment. If you've seen it you'll realise why it couldn't be disposed of à la Nelson: it's absolutely massive at the base and would take several tons of dynamite to shift. See here Also it doesn't involve a statue or a likeness so it's less personal. And Wellington, unlike Nelson, was an Irishman (albeit of the Ascendancy) which probably counted in his favour. I'll incorporate some text on these two, but I don't think the Britannia and the Montreal warrrant inclusion. Brianboulton (talk) 16:25, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: *Noting here that a comment at the featured article candidate discussion led to a footnote being added regarding the Montreal column. Carcharoth (talk) 00:02, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison with other monuments 

message: This is a great article and it is good to see it as our featured article of the day! However, there are a couple of issues in the lede that I think should be discussed. At present, the opening sentence reads "Nelson's Pillar (also known as the Nelson Pillar or simply The Pillar) was a large granite column capped by a statue of Horatio Nelson, in the centre of O'Connell Street (until 1924 Sackville Street) in Dublin, Ireland." Personally I think that there are two prose issues here that we could do something about. First, I would recommend adding "located" at the juncture between "Horatio Nelson," and "in the centre"; I made that change myself but it was then reverted. I nevertheless think it to be a good addition and would like to see if I can get some support for its reintroduction. The second issue lies with "(until 1924 Sackville Street)" which I think has the capacity to confuse some readers, particularly those in the United States. For instance, the sentence could be misread as referring to a location that was in the juxtaposition of two separate roads, O'Connell Street and Sackville Street. In such a scenario, "1924" might be mistaken for an address rather than a year, which is something I think that we should be trying to avoid; we could perhaps go with something more precise like ""known as Sackville Street prior to 1924)" instead. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:23, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I should probably have qualified why I made reference to our American readers! It's because in U.S. urban centres like New York City one can find locations with names like "1235 West Street" and such; very high numbers appended to street names. These are far less common in Europe, or at least the British Isles. My original comment was most certainly not meant as a slur on the intelligence of Americans! Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:01, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I misinterpreted you. Got it now. Have a good day. Juan Riley  (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

text: That looks good, Carcharoth. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:54, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "located" and "until 1924 Sackville Street" 

message: The late actor Joe Pilkington (who in the 1960's and 1970's played a settled traveller-turned farm labourer called Eamon Maher in the seminal RTE soap, The Riordans, itself a progenitor of the later Emmerdale Farm) is on record as claiming direct involvement in the planting of the bomb. No reference to this is made in the piece, though I distinctly recall an interview with the Pilkington (late 1970's?, Late Late Show?) in which he made that claim, which at the time seemed authentic. To any interested parties, it might be worth backtracking to investigate this. If deemed true by reputable sources, it's probably worth a mention. Mike Galvin (talk) 01:05, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joe Pilkington 

message: I do not obviously now have the book to hand, but I recall reading in 1970 a book 'The Shell Guide to Ireland' which had obviously been published before the pillar's destruction, stated that the statue had been enclosed in an iron cage 'to deter suicides'. That is how it stands in my memory but as memory can play tricks, I would recommend a looking up of the book to check the detail. This aspect of the column is worth looking up, this would surely be an unusual addition to the structure. Were there reported suicidal falls from the statue when it was uncaged? Was this cage still on the monument when it was destroyed?Cloptonson (talk) 11:02, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Further information - cage on statue

message: * I have tagged '{ambigous}' , but actually the sentence is irrelevant either way. Third person opinion on a 2nd person.
* Height is not mentioned. Missing in infobox. (incidentally, it is referred to wrt the London column).
* In 9th paragraph, at last, we read (indirectly) that the column is hollow and can be visited & ascended. Expected in like lead, Construction, infobox paragraphs.
DePiep (talk) 06:30, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  issues 

message: The architectural style could be relevant for the infobox, as it describes the exterior of the pillar quite short. The Banner talk 17:42, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what you mean by "it describes the exterior of the pillar quite short".  What style do you mean?  I was on the fence about the height parameter, but if people also want to add "architectural style" and more and more parameters, then I am firmly against adding anything.  The IB in my screen view certainly does cause sandwiching of the text with the other (and better) image on the left. Can we reduce the map to a box that is squatter? -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Editor FF added as architectural style simply "Doric" (or Doric style). The Banner talk 18:05, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your source that states that the actual construction was "Doric"? (I see the cite in the article that says that the original design of the pillar portion was Doric, but 1) was it executed as a Doric column, and 2) If only the column is Doric, is the monument a Doric monument? Nothing in the article says so, currently)  And, even if the monument could be said to be Doric in style, why is that an essential "key fact" for the IB?  Also, if it was Doric, it should be mentioned in the text together with a WP:RS.  The fact that it was not discussed in the text indicates that it is not a "key fact" for the IB. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:31, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

text: Among others, History Ireland - Nelson's Pillar, Dispelling the myths about the bombing of Nelson's Pillar, Archiseek - 1809 – Nelson's Pillar, O'Connell St., Dublin, Dublin delineated, Roman Architecture. It should be added to the article anyway. The Banner talk 20:16, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's already in the body, although it could probably be given greater prominence or description than it has. I'm not sure it's worthwhile adding to the IB though. - SchroCat (talk) 08:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Architectural style