Talk:Beowulf/Archive 1

message: Nice article 4.238.245.162 23:15, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

message: Under Translations it says "Tolkien never made a translation of his own", yet under Derivative works and contemporary influences it says that "Tolkien also made a translation of the poem, which the Tolkien Society has recently decided to publish". Like, hello! Can someone please find out the true answer and fix this?
Fixed.  It has long been known in Tolkien scholarship that Tolkien translated Beowulf; his strictures against translation in his "On Translating Beowulf" essay apply only to students of the language using the translation as anything other than beginners needing a "crib".  Tolkien had no problems with a translation for purely literary purposes, as his long-published translations of Sir Gawain, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo should have showed.  Discussion of the translation occurs in Scull & Hammond's Reader's Guide, p. 84-85.  Other errors in the text about the translation & Drout's role have been deleted or fixed. Kalimac 04:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Has Tolkien written a translation or not?

message: Both the entry on Thorkelin and Beowulf (at some point stated "Icelandic scholar Grímur Jónsson Thorkelin made the first transcription of the manuscript in 1818, working under a historical research commission by the Danish government.". The sources I have says the transcription was made in 1786 (Andreas Haarder, Barry Wilmont) and published in 1815. The Royal danish library also lists this edition as "1815". Rebsamen (p. xi) states 1787!!!
Good find.  In the versioning chronology provided by A Beowulf Handbook (UNP, 1998), 1815 is indeed listed as the date of the publishing of the Thorkelin manuscript(p. 341).  I presume this to be correct. --Yst 04:18, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transcription 

message: Would anyone be interested in my rendering the fragment from Beowulf into modern poetic English? user:sjc
I find some translation a little bit strange. The name Healfdene, for instance it othervise here at the wikipedia used as Halfdan I belive, as for Halfdan the Black. Either of the varieties should be used to establish conecquence, since its undaoubtly the same name. An alternatice would be a link to Halfdan from Healfdene. Dan Koehl 05:41 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)
It is a very archaic translation. But I would be reluctant to tinker with the import with the import from Gutenberg because of possible copyright issues. A modern rendering by someone (i.e. probably me) would resolve this. But time is the big enemy at the moment, Dan. BTW the name Halfdan is as unsatisfactory as Healfdene because it also partially conceals the meaning behind the name.user:sjc
Well, I thought the right table is supposed to be a modern transalation? Its not that important to me, and beides theres so far no particulair halfdan to link to, so it hardly matters. The meaning of the word I suppose, i half dane.
Just for my curiosity, in wich way does healfdene clearer reveal the meaning? 
On runstones in Sweden the enam is most often writen with the spelling half tan.
If the origon from halfdan at all comes from the name Dan, I am very sceptical to the interpretion be a half dane. Its seems like Halfdan and Dan was both used back in ancient times. Dan the arrogant is supposed to have give name to Denmark. (Danmark in Danish and Swedish) but this gives the indication the neame was used before and has its unique meaning, as halfdan.
On the other hand, if Healfdene is more correct, then I think Halfdan the Black should also be spelled in the same way.
(Not arguing with you here, maybe theres something for me to learn...)Dan Koehl 07:39 Jan 12, 2003 (UTC)
By archaic I mean it is in Victorian English, i.e. recognisable to a modern reader with mother-tongue English but with effort. It is not late 20th century English but English as it was written by scholars of a century or so ago.
I happen to read AS and I know that the word for half is healf and I know the word for Danish is (amongst other spellings) Dene. So I know immediately what is implied about the Scylding Healfdene: it is not only a nationalist slur but also an implicit slur upon his lineage and his legitimacy. But if I come across the name Halfdan in an AS text I don't quite know what to do with it. Is it an AS name whose origin is concealed? Or does it mean half a dan? I wouldn't without engaging my brain think that a dan was a dane because it it doesn't immediately correlate at all to either the AS or the modern English. It is an unfortunate bodge, in short, and this is what happens very often when anglicisation occurs. The word for Denmark in English is of course Denmark and not Danmark, although we do have the derivatives Dane and Danish, but unfortunately no Dans.....
The point about this in context however is that not only is Healfdene a Scylding, the name has more rhythmic and alliterative value than Halfdan. Let's not kill a brilliant (if dated) translation's artistic merits . user:sjc
I suppose you are right. The day theres an article about the Halfdan mentioned here, I suppose someone will find a solution for the link. I would actually be interested to know if you have more material translated, I am serching the pieces describing two ancient kings of Svitjod, Ottar and Adils, not really sure how they (or Svitjod) are called anglified. Since they are described and mentioned independantly in Snorre and Beowulf, this gives pretty good confirment about their existence. Dan Koehl 09:24 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)
Dan, 
I will see what I can dig out for you but as I said previously, time is the big enemy at the moment. rgds Steve (user:sjc)
Anyone able to translate this into perhaps non-poetic literal 21st century English also? The one on the page seems to have been written by someone who spent /far/ too much time reading Shakespeare. In parts the Old English is clearer than the translation: "Beowulf is min nama." "Beowulf is my name" not the torturous "I am Beowulf named." Or "Wille ic asecgan sunu Healfdenes" "I want to tell Halfdan's son" not "I am seeking to say to the son of Healfdene...".  kudz75 01:03, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: Indeed, I updated the former translation with a semi-literal Modern English translation of my own creation which does not make any attempt whatsoever at poetic flourishes, and which I created solely to serve as a reflection of the meaning of the original text.  The translation formerly present, it seems, was a rather freely structured, syntactically confused and generally deeply flawed translation from 1910 which has not stood the test of time at all well.  --Yst 17:47, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Even though Yst's translation into modern English is much easier to read, in the Old English version I have replaced the wynn  character with w for easier reading.  If a novice tries to have a go at reading the Old English version, the  character can unfortunately be mistaken for p (due to how some fonts render the character).  Also most modern prints or translations (that I have come across) these days use 'w' instead of . – AxSkov 02:07, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, I support this further change to the original.  The transcription of wynn as 'w' has been standard in modern editions of Old English texts for the last hundred years.  I don't see why we should make an exception to that rule here.  --Yst 18:59, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Translation

message: * Do you have any opinions on the alignments of the Beowulf poem and the charcter of Rolf Krake, known from Snorre's Edda and Saxo's Gesta Danorum, amongst others?
I have read the old english texts (in a few different versions, I should say) as found online, and I am struck by the similarities for which I have not yet found any "official" comments regarding this mentioned similarities of the two characters, Beowulf and Rolf Krake.
- I see an alignment of Beo, in Beowulf, as of beorh (mountain, huge rock etc.), and Wulf, as being the basic name, with the Beo-prefix added as a "nickname" of a sort.
This corresponds, in my opinion, to the nickname of Rolf; Krake, perhaps in the same adversed way that the Robin Hood companion John is called Little John, although he is supposedly of great statutes and build. As is Rolf Krake, wether the term "krake" means a small being (crow) or some huge built tree or rock, both explanations which I have found to be mentioned as an explanation of the name Rolf Krake.
(Accidentally, "krake" in swedish is a synonym for poorly built and weak.)
- I see the description of fighting, and loosing, to a fire-throwing dragon, and the loss of great fortunes in a funeral pyre, in Beowulf to be an adequate description of how a person is burned to death within his house, in a huge fire.
This corresponds, in my opinion, very much to the story of how Rolf Krake is burnt to death over a matter of taxes and fortunes.
- The companion of Beowulf, Wiglaf, is most similar to Rolf Krakes companion Vögg, or Wig, who revenges the death of Rolf Krake by killing the brother-in-law Hjorvard who has killed Rolf.
- The description of Beowulf people as Weder Geats, to me has a very interesting association with a known name on the swedish (of today) west coast; where the island of 'Hallands Väderö', in the meaning of county Halland, Weather-island, very well might indicate some former region in Geatland - Götaland, Gothland; the Wedera Geats
This, then becomes a very adequate situation given the orientation of geography, naming Hrothogars people (both) West and South-Danes, wheras Beowulf is called (both) East, and at a time, North Danes.
An explanation of this, naturally, would be that the Geatland/Gothland territory at times have been incorporated in either Swiorice, or Denum - the Svea kingdom, or the Dane kingdom - whereas the people of West, East and South Gothland originally and basically consider themselves to be 'geats', or goths, or 'götar'.
Feel free to add references, links and your thoughts on this subject, email me at []
(Wilmer Thomas) 2003 June 18th, Göteborg
*Hallands-Väderö is first mentioned in 1673 (as Wärögierne). I doubt you'll find many followers to that part of the theory. OlofE 18:29, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion on Beowulf equalling Rolf Krake 

message: I am quite suprised that this alignment is so infected. For someone who approaches the issue from the perspective of Norse mythology, it seems like a straightforward alignment. There are many alignments within Norse mythology that are undisputed. However, if treated with the extreme demands for conclusive alignment that some demand in this matter, it would lead to the complete desintegration of most knowledge of Norse mythology. The Beowulf and Hrolf Kraki alignments do not only concern events, but also a host of personal names. There were 100s of Germanic names in circulation (this linguistic analysis of Proto-Norse personal names in Beowulf and Swedish rune stones[.] is in Swedish but anyone can read the list of names), so the probability that the personal names (and their relationships) would be a matter of coincidence is so low so as to be insignificant. If anyone would like to compare this particular aligment with the variations within uncontested alignments, see Heoroweard, any POV is based on the scholarly works cited.--Wiglaf 07:31, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The main reason for the difference between Scandinavian and English scholars may be that Scandinavians find it more interesting to dwell on the fact that England's national epic is based on Scandinavian matters than Englishmen do. It would be a silly but very human reason for the difference. I agree completely with the identifications you make, and I don't understand where the connection Beowulf=Hrólfr comes from. It is probably due to the names of the two most famous sources (Hrolf kraki's saga and Beowulf).--Berig 19:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More on Beowulf and Hrolf Kraki

message: Beowulf is just a rehashing of one of the oldest myths known to Humankind--that of Thor slaying Balder...  Marduk slaying Tiamat (Chaos Monster)...  Khranus
** "Thor slaying Balder"? OlofE 13:35, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Just like Balder, err...

message: I found these sentences:
:The poem appears in what is today called the Beowulf manuscript, along with the shorter poem Judith. The text is the product of two different scribes, the second taking over roughly halfway through the poem. 
and replaced them with 
:The poem appears in what is today called the Beowulf manuscript, along with the shorter poem Judith. The text is the product of two different scribes, the second taking over roughly halfway through Beowulf. 
(Bold added solely for talk page in both cases.)
The difference is eliminating what may be regarded as either ambiguity, or the implication that i assume is an error, that the break falls in Judith.  (That's what it says; just bcz B. is the subject of the article doesn't keep "the poem" from referring to the last poem mentioned, Judith. It's unlikely, bcz a break in Judith is not interesting in this article, and bcz the odds are good that any break would fall in the longer poem.)
If in fact it is the poem Judith that is broken between two scribes, someone who knows should eventually correct my false inference by making it read "halfway through Judith." --Jerzy 18:27, 2004 Feb 7 (UTC)
:You are right, the break is in Beowulf. Matthew Woodcraft
----
Someone seems to have added to this a claim about the ages of the scribes, for which I am unaware of any evidence.  There is plenty of evidence (in Klæber lxxxix–xci, among others) that the second scribe is significantly more accurate.  So I'll be correct this, and adding the line number for the transition.
: The manuscript is the product of two different scribes of different ages, the second (older) scribe taking over roughly halfway through Beowulf.
FlashSheridan 19:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle of which Poem?

message: I have uploaded an image of the first page of the Beowulf manuscript: :Image:Beowulf.firstpage.jpeg.  It is public domain, and approximately 55k.  Should it appear here?  I have already used it at Medieval literature (my goal would be that all featured articles have associated images), and so I don't know if it should be duplicated.  Also, the original image [here] is much larger and more detailed....perhaps more appropriate for this page than my smaller version?  Just a suggestion. Jwrosenzweig 22:03, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The image is fine, but it would be nice if there were correspondance between the page shown and the translation given. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 21:44, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately, while the first page of the Beowulf poem is interesting enough, I have to think the choice of its text for the translation would make for terrible confusion among readers first approaching the topic, as the text of the first page deals not with Beowulf the Geat, who lends his name to the poem and to the article itself, but with Beowulf (or Beow) the Dane, whose significance to the poem is merely hereditary and whose name is more likely to confound readers than illuminate issues raised by the poem. --Yst 14:45, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Image

message: You know, we really don't cover the story at all (the article really assumes we've all read this somewhat difficult work). We shouldn't be a Cliff's Notes, but a paragraph or two of ploy synopsis really is needed, no? -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 21:44, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Story?

message: I have been doing some work and added some articles on the people described in the epic. At the moment Beowulf concerns the epic itself, whereas the "person" is treated at Beowulf (character). My gut feeling is that the most common meaning of "Beowulf" is the epic, and not the person. Any opinions on the naming?--Wiglaf 10:00, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Haabert, I see that you're not familiar with Beowulf.--Wiglaf 15:02, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming

message: In the section on Translations, this sentence " Frederick Rebsamen's verse translation is with alliterations and inventive compound words; it includes extreme deviations from the meaning of the Old English text." seems to be missing a word between "is" and "with".  Rife?  Filled?  Teeming?
I have been bold and inserted "rich".—Theo  (Talk) 22:33, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing word? 

message: I'm not sure how that formatting is done on the passage from thhe poem, but would it be possible to only have line numbers every five or ten lines, and even better,on the right hand side? At the moment they're reducing the passage's readability.Harry R 00:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I decided to Be Bold. You can always revert it, after all.Harry R 23:39, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: line numbers

message: Innaccurate. Hrunting could not pierce neither Grendel or Grendels Mother's skin, another sword did. The one forged by the giants, unless I am wrong, because this has not yet been corrected.
Right, except Grendel (I think) isn't killed by a sword at all. Beowulf tears its arm off.
But Grendel doens't die instantly from that wound. Later, when Beowulf is in the lair of the mother, he uses the ancient sword to kill Grendel, who is sitting in a daze from his wound.Arbadihist 06:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Grendel dies of the shock from Beowulf tearing his arm off.  When Beowulf finds him in the lair, he is already dead; Beowulf only cuts his head off so he can take it back to Heorot as a trophy, to replace Grendel's arm, which Grendel's mother took away with her when she seized the Dane AEschere.  When Beowulf finds Grendel (lines 1585-90) he is licgan aldorleasne, "lying life-less."  Also, at line 1257, the poet says that Grendel's avenger (his mother) lifde aefter him, so clearly Grendel is already dead by the time Grendel's mother attacks Heorot. Fumblebruschi 19:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Even so, you'd need morethan that to prove it. Not only does Old English poetry regularly mix up what we see as a linear time span (cf. Dream of the Rood and The Wife's Lament), but when it talks about Grendel that way it could just mean that he's exhausted. After all, Grendel did manage to find his way back. Anyway, it doesn't really matter.Arbadihist 20:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow: The magical sword Hrunting, which Beowulf used to kill Grendel's Mother... 

message: "Grendel and Grendel's mother were the inspiration for the Orcs in his Ring trilogy."  Sorry, this sounds a bit dubious, especially saying they were the inspiration.  Is there a source for this? -- Arvind 19:03, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Grendel and orcs

message: Isn't calling the house's name 'ominous' a little facetious?
It certainly is - should be removed I think? 
193.1.172.138 10:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ashburnham House 

message: Perhaps there should be a link to the Beowulf (computing) article next to the one to the hero... Beowulf is one of the most popular cluster systems in existance, and I think deserves a link other than thru the disambig. --Wulf 04:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to [[Beowulf (computing)]] 

message: IP user, can you demonstrate your sources for this early dating of the poem? If you're going to include something so non-traditional in the field, you really must cite your source within the article. I've never read anything that dated it before around 650. Carl.bunderson 16:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dating

message: I've added the Morris/Wyatt translation of 1895 in the text, but did not add it to the bibliography, as that seemed to be limited to 20th century (et seq.) versions. I thought it appropriate due to Morris' literary standing at the time.   Glacierman 05:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translations. 

message: I am doing an overhaul of Beowulf-related articles. Two of them, Hroðgar and Halga, have been submitted for peer review. Ideas and opinions are very welcome!--Berig 09:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Peer review|A peer review of two subarticles]]

message: Can someone please fix the spoiler warnings? Thanks -anonymous 68.33.200.244 19:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler warnings 

message: Can whoever it is that keeps cutting out things from the comics section give a reason for doing so?  Antarctic Press is actually running a Beowulf comic, and the Grendel comics do exist and have some ties to the legend.  What is the rationale for the cuts? Rabidwolfe 01:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comics 

message: Consequently, many people and events depicted in the epic were probably real. (quote from the article)
This is quite a statement to make without citing some supporting authority. The preceding paragraph says that the poem blurs fictional and historical elements, that many of the personalities in Beowulf appear in other Scandinavian literature, and that the poem can be placed in its cultural context thanks to archaeological discoveries. This makes it possible, if not probable, that a memory of actual persons was preserved by the poem, many of them part of the common memory of first millenium Scandinavian epic. But I think the sentence is rather too bold as it stands. --Iacobus 06:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. It makes no assertion as to how many were probably real nor does it claim that they were real anyway.--Berig 06:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I have added a comment on this from a published thesis.--Berig 09:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, good addition. --Iacobus 23:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historicity 

message: The statment It was translated by Seamus Heaney is misleading. I've removed it. The first translation, according to Douglas Short's Annotated Bibliography, was a transcription of lines 1-19 and 53-73 by Humphrey Wanley, who misinterpreted the poem. --Iamunknown 04:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misleading statement 

message: Beowulf's sword was named Adam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.229.208.167 (talk) 16:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  his sword was named 

message: Um, obscurity? Tinker wrote a bibliography of the translations of Beowulf in 1903 which covered twenty different translations, and several paraphrases targeted at schools and children. I'd be hard pressed to consider that obscure.--Prosfilaes 02:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "converting a medieval piece of literature from obscurity to prominence" 

message: This article is hardly GA yet. The lead doesn't summarise the article, there aren't enough refs and the pop culture section is a trivia list, hardly discussing Beowulf's impact on modern writing. Alientraveller 19:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed GA

message: Are there any opinions regarding the use of BC vs. CE?  I fall into the camp of continuing to use BC, considering the themes within the text. TopaTopa 21:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think you probably realize this, but you know, CE is not an alternate for BC.  CE is an alternate for AD. Unschool 04:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  BC vs. CE 

message: Under the heading of themes in this article, the first sentence is as follows: "The poem as we know it is a retelling of orally transmitted legends for a Christian audience." How do we know this? It makes it sound like the poem is assumed to be a literary version of an oral poem, which is not certain at all. Myself, I am almost convinced that the author(s) made it up almost out of nothing. He decided to insert his own character, Beowulf, who is mentioned nowhere else in any saga or poem or the eddas. (The main character of Beowulf the poem is of course distinct from Beowulf, the ancestor of Hrothgar.) I recognize that this is a minority view, but the way the article is structured, it sounds as "The poem as we know it is a retelling of orally transmitted legends for a Christian audience." is a fact, when so little of what we know of the poem is a fact. There is also no citation for this bold statement either. Thus, I have changed the sentence to "The poem as we know it is shot through with elements of the Norse legendarium along with Christian statements."
It might also be good to insert comments about the shift of ideas from Beowulf being a pagan poem with splashes of Christianity to a Christian poem with splashes of paganism. Arbadihist 05:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While there is a fair amount of variation amongst the accounts of Beowulf's origin, the notion that Beowulf consists entirely of textually derived written legend without a period of transmission as oral tradition receives no academic or otherwise serious consideration, nor has it ever, for the obvious and simple reasons that 1) the poem possesses sufficiently many elements from historical and legendary tradition that its spontaneous invention is not a possibility, and 2) there is no evidence of an English written tradition for the materials, allowing a mere textual synthesis.  The notion that Beowulf is a textual synthesis of materials composed into text from oral sources at a date *earlier* than the extant poem itself, though regarded by most as dubious, *has* received treatment, but even this theory agrees with the original article text on the role of the influence of oral transmission.  Your edit is made on the basis of a personal theory which would be regarded as crackpot nonsense by Beowulf scholarship in any serious environment, and I see no reason for accommodating such theories here.  Consequently, reverting this edit. --Yst 22:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, there's no reason to get so fired up about it. I always assumed there to be room here to discuss things reasonably. You might look further instead of advancing your own view without considering there to be room for others. I would advise reading James Earl's book "Thinking About Beowulf." Most specifically, the part entitled "Two Introductions." Even if you still don't agree with this view after reading the essay, which is of course reasonable, it represents at least one viewpoint supporting my change, a view by a non-fringe scholar. Earl is a respected Anglo-Saxonist, and if you've worked in the field for a while I'm sure you've heard of him. To close, three points:
1) I hope I have shown that what I did was not on the basis of a "Crackpot personal theory." In the future, I would ask that you do a little research before throwing such slander. On your user page, you state that you are a graduate student in library studies, thus I would expect more careful research before making your argument.
2) I'm not referring to such things as Liedertheorie. I'm allowing for another view that "Beowulf" may have been the work of a singular genius, who definitely knew his germanic legends, or some of them, and used them as background, but made the story up.
3) I also am under the impression that reverts should not be used as a first resort for this type of disagreement. As a dedicated Anglo-Saxonist, I was hoping that we couuld work to make some much needed improvements to this article.
Therefore, based on this elaboration, I am reverting back to my change. I hope this clarifies, and I apologize if you felt I didn't explain enough in my first statement. Arbadihist 08:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beowulf as an oral poem