Talk:Jesus/Archive 4

message: Can you please inform why my new section on Gnostic sources, which if you do any sort of internet search are clearly rather high on the Christian and New Age agenda, and do rather concern Jesus have been deleted. I was not using them as a support for Jesus' historicity which I except only provide weak support upon reflection. But I put the sub-section in to give it the current importance it deserves on the debate about Jesus
 I was quite happy with your new section heading on the problem of Jesus so whats the problem ChrisG
::Chris I'm sorry I didn't notice your stuff when I reverted Lir's rubbish out of the opening paragraph. You can rescue it easily enough from the Page History file. Adam 13:19, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: How's this?
Gnostic Sources 
Gnostic writings had been fragmented and limited in quality owing to the successful campaign of the Orthodox Church to repress so called 'heretical' Christian sects and their writings during the third and fourth centuries. However, a library of over fifty gnostic texts were rediscovered at Nag Hammadi in 1945. Once it was fully translated in the 1970's it provided a fascinating discovery for anyone interested in early Christianity and the spiritual teachings of Jesus. These non-canonical Christian or Gnostic sources for Jesus have become increasingly cited as historical sources in the life of Jesus. 
Dating the Nag Hammadi material places them in A.D 350-400. However, scholars sharply disagree about dating the original texts. which is vitally important to Christians and historians, because the earlier the dating the more likely the teachings can be attributed to Jesus himself. Debate among scholars and Christians has tended to become more narrowly focused on the reliability of the so called Fifth Gospel of Thomas. A number of scholars have suggested that it is an independent transmission of teaching from Jesus created at approximately the same time as the Biblical Gospels in the mid part of the First Century, while scholars on the other extreme dismiss it as derivative development of the second century AD and therefore fairly irrelevant to the teachings of Jesus. Others have focused more specifically on the question of which - if any - of the 114 sayings can be reliably attributed to Jesus and which are later creations. 
Even with the Nag Hammadi library texts it is difficult to know what the Gnostic and other early Christians actually believed, or if there was any consistent core of teachings; but it is clear that at least some of these early Christians fundamentally disagreed with the Orthodox Christianity in their understandig of Jesus Christ. Upholding a far more private and 'Eastern' perspective on Jesus' teachings, which makes the current differentiation between the main Christian denominations seem minimal. These writings have proved attractive to many liberal Christians and New Ageists in the last thirty years and there has been a revival of Gnosticism.: ChrisG 16:22, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Gnosticism

message: Suggested new first paragraph. Islam sees Jesus as a prophet other religions see him in much different ways. Also added Lir's sentence about the Gospels because I think it is well written and allows Christian movement with the phrase divinely inspired as to whether it is literally correct.
::Jesus Christ (or Jesus of Nazareth, see alternate names below) (c. 4 BC - c. 30) was, according to Christian belief, the Son of God, who brought salvation to man through his crucifixion and resurrection. Jesus is considered to be a major religious figure by several religions, for instance, he is regarded as a prophet in Islam. The primary source of historical knowledge, about Jesus, is contained within the Christian Gospels, which Christians view as the divinely inspired writings of God. Most secular historians accept that the Gospels are sufficient evidence that Jesus existed, but do not believe that the details of his life can be known from the available evidence. : ChrisG 16:22, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Suggested new first paragraph