Talk:List of dog breeds/Archive 2

message: What about adding breeds to the list? I'm new here, obviously, so thought probably I should ask before doing something like that. There are a lot of rare breeds around these days that are outside the AKC/CKC/FCI orbit: Shiloh Shepherd Dog, Olde Englishe Bulldogge, Seppala Siberian Sleddog, Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, and so on. What does Sannse think about this? Ditkoofseppala 23:34 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
:Well it's not just down to me of course :) but here are my thoughts...
:I've avoided putting these on the list so far, partly because I wanted to concentrate on the recognised breeds to start with and partly because it brings up the question: what is a breed?  Many of these developing breeds could be seen as crossbreeds at this point, so should we have them as a separate list or on the "dog breeds" page?
:At this point, I think my preferred solution is to list them all together and have an introductory paragraph explaining that not all the breeds listed can be considered purebred, then we can discuss individual issues on the article pages.  That will reduce problems of which list a particular breed should be on and give us the most complete list possible.  We could also have a separate list of developing dog breeds if someone is interested in the subject in the future (without removing them from the main list).
:How does that sound?  I think it will give us the most complete list while avoiding controversy (well, as much as is possible round here anyway ;) -- sannse 08:54 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The whole concept of "purebred" becomes quite a can of worms if you examine it closely, that's the problem. AKC, CKC and other big umbrella registries have few if any real controls on genetic input to their breeds, and there's a lot of cheating! Racing Greyhound Club of Australia instituted mandatory DNA microsatellite testing for parentage verification a few years ago, and found that most of their pedigrees were worthless. 
In addition, there's a growing realisation that the rigidly closed stud books — in which breeding has taken place from a handful of founders (like, six or a dozen dogs in some instances) over sixty to a hundred years without fresh genetic input — are a genetic disaster for the dogs. They talk about the "genetic crisis in purebred dogs" — there sure is one, and it's all due to the closed stud book system. A gene pool is like a bank account — you can't go on making withdrawals forever without ever making a deposit. :) The "withdrawals" are automatic through inbreeding/selection and genetic drift, but the closed-studbook "breed purity" system forbids new deposits!
Rather than support the dinosaurs with their racist breed-purity fetish, I'd rather see us go with the spreading knowledge of population genetics and not penalise the newer breeds that ARE enjoying a little big of fresh genetic material by stigmatising them as "crossbreeds". 
Would it be possible to make the distinction on another less judgmental level, refusing to open the "defining purebred" can of worms, and just classifying breeds as "traditional breeds," "new breeds," and "rare breeds," or something of that nature? The energy and interest in new and rare breeds these days often far exceeds what's found in the traditional breeds handled by the big umbrella registries. AKC and CKC have been forced to recognise this by adding quite a number of minority or rare breeds to their own rosters in recent years. 
I agree with your overall approach of listing all together and discussing the issues in individual articles, but think maybe it would be fairer to say that some breeds are popular breeds with huge populations, some breeds are traditional breeds with century-long breeding history as registered breeds, some breeds are rare breeds with their own registries, and some breeds are new breeds that haven't been around as registered breeds for long and may still be in their developmental stages. Point being that "purebred" and "crossbreed," far from avoiding controversy, are actually  rather judgmental terms. How does this strike you? Ditkoofseppala 19:16 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
end of moved text
:OK, so the general approach should work, but the introductory paragraph needs work.  I'll have a think about how to reword it, but if you can see ways to improve it before I get there, go right ahead :) You are obviously very knowledgeable in this area.
:I think it's important to remember our overall policy of neutral point of view.  We need to find a wording that doesn't support the "dinosaurs" or the "new-breeders" (to make up terminology as I go along ;).  I think we need to mention the concept of "purebred", but indicate the limitations and problems of this terminology - and explain that we are using a wider, more inclusive definition of the term "breed".  
:I'll have another look at the introductory paragraph in the morning and see how I can improve it. -- sannse 22:15 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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This weekend I went to the Tendring Hundred Show and took more than forty photos of various breeds - all with my camera on the wrong setting!  Forty pictures I would have been really pleased with if they weren't completely blurred :-/
I gave the Wikipedia address to some of the owners who kindly allowed me to borrow their dogs.  So if any of them come across this page while looking for their pictures - that's what happened.  Many thanks for your help and I'm sorry it didn't work!  Regards - sannse 10:47 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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Finally found time to write the Siberian Husky article. I have removed the existing photo as it *isn't* of Siberian Huskies, but probably Greenland dogs (photo was credited to NOAA, who have used Greenland dog teams in the past). Would be nice if Sannse could put one of her tables on the page. Too bad about all those photos, Sannse; I know what a dreadful feeling it is to do that! Maybe I can find a public-domain SH photo; I know of a couple places to look. Trouble with writing a new article is: if you put the links in, then you see all those holes where other new articles are then needed!!! It could turn into a geometrically-expanding task, couldn't it! But that is one beauty of the Wikipedia system -- it sure does show you what you need to do next! BTW, sorry -- I left the site to search something, was absent-minded, didn't open my search in a new window, got back and failed to realise I wasn't logged in anymore when I placed the new article -- how do you fix that???  Ditkoofseppala 22:41 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Addendum: I've been messing with the list, Sannse, putting in a few extra breeds. I'll probably do others from time to time. Also I'm putting in links to registries beyond just AKC and KC (UK). FCI serves nicely to cover Europe, so probably we don't need to link LOE (Spain) or FCC (France) and others, but Oz and Ennzed probably yes. Also major alternative registries such as UKC and Continental deserve a link. If I can keep my momentum and don't get called away to something else I'm going to try to cover some red-linked breeds. If I don't know enough about them to do a definitive article I can at least stub a few. It's fun getting things fixed up. If you want a giggle, check out the Talk page for "Sleddog" ;-) Ditkoofseppala 03:41 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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Is it still Jack Russell Terrier?  I was watching a dog show on TV last week and they claimed that the new official name of the breed is "Parson Russell Terrier".  RickK 03:50 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
:I wondered about that, too, as I had just noticed both names in the list. I've just done a cursory search and on AKC's website appears: "<B>Note:</B> The name of the Jack Russell Terrier was changed to the Parson Russell Terrier effective April 1, 2003 as requested by the Jack Russell Terrier Association of America, which was changed to the Parson Russell Terrier Association of America." No idea of why, as I didn't search it in depth. Learn something new every day . . . Ditkoofseppala 04:34 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
:But you left it in the "J" position when you corrected it, Rick! (Gotcha) ;-) Ditkoofseppala 04:56 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
::Whoops.  But then, it got reverted, anyway.  :(  RickK 05:00 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
:Sinn Fein strikes again! Ditkoofseppala 05:05 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There are now two (or possibly three) breeds.  The Parson Russell is recognised by the FCI and in the US, UK, Australia and New Zealand.  There is also a Jack Russell, sometimes called the Australian Jack Russell, which is recognised by Australia and New Zealand and has just been recognised by the FCI (as of May 2003).  Then there are the good old-fashioned non-recognised dogs, also called Jack Russels (in the UK anyway, I'm not sure about elsewhere) that basically includes any Jack Russell-like little yappy thing.  -- sannse 09:20 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)
:BTW - I was wrong - there are three (possibly four) breeds.  I've tried to expand the Jack Russell Terrier article to explain all this -- sannse 22:25, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding new breeds 

message: Some links need either removing or redirecting(Some, not all).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.37.98 (talk) 20:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: There was no great pyrenees on the list, so I added it. 69.239.153.17 20:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great Pyrenees 

message: Here's what I've been doing:
* Primary breed name (as above): alphabetized and linked, e.g.:
*: * Chart Polski
* Secondary name that's very similar to original and in about the same place alphabetically--don't list. E.g.:
*: * Foobar Shepherd  (don't list Foobar Sheepdog at all)
* Secondary name that's in about the same place alphabetically but is notably different--include next to primary name in parens with no link.  E.g.:
*: * Bernese Mountain Dog (Berner Sennenhund)
* Secondary name that's very different: Place in alpha order without linking and add xref to primary name.  E.g.:
*:* Polish Greyhound - see Chart Polski  
*:* Bouvier Bernois - see Bernese Mountain Dog
Elf | Talk 21:31, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How are cross-references to alternative breed names listed? 

message: Just wanted to drop a note that the article "Dog breed" does not have any link to another language until now. In German there is a REDIRECT from "Liste_der_Hunderassen" to "Hunderasse".
I can not follow exactly where the other languages are supposed to point.
Regards Gangleri 02:08, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
:Wish I spoke any other languages well enough to figure these out. Thanks for mentioning it; perhaps someone will be able to track them down.  Elf | Talk 02:26, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a link to the spanish list of dog breeds. The french dog and cat pages only have a short list of breeds on them, with almost no articles... those are the only languages i even know the words for dog or cat in... Lachatdelarue (talk) 13:47, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The articles "Dog breed" and "List of dog breeds" need foreign links 

message: On Affenpinscher Elf raised the issue of the discrepancy between Griffon Bruxellois and Belgian Griffon.  
'Belgian Griffon/Griffon Belge : only recognised by the FCI
Google:
*3,140 English pages for  "Belgian Griffon"
*491 English pages for  "Griffon Belge"
Griffon Bruxellois/Brussels Griffon:
*AKC: Brussels Griffon
*ANKC:Griffon Bruxellois
*CKC: Griffon (Brussels)
*KC(UK): Griffon Bruxellios
*NZKC: Griffon Bruxellois
Google (although we would usually go on the above anyway):
*39,600 English pages for  "Brussels Griffon"
*3,300 English pages for  "Griffon Bruxellois"
Which is quite a discrepancy - but I still think we are doing the right thing in using the name used by three out of the five above KCs.  this is a case where we will have to be very sure to get redirects set up though -- sannse (talk) 18:20, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Griffon Bruxellois and Belgian Griffon 

message: :Image:Berry & brandy.jpg  -- A new user has uploaded an image for his personal photo album. The album was deleted, but maybe we can use the dog picture. Since you're the local dog-expert, do you recognize/can use the dog in :Image:Berry & brandy.jpg? Currently it is listed on Wikipedia:Images for deletion. Thanks -- Chris 73 Talk 04:19, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC) (Reposted by Elf | Talk 15:56, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (shrugging)  Long-haired GSD cross or Shiloh Shepherd cross? Quill 07:49, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone recognize this breed? 

message: (My, WP is sloooowwww this morning.)  Someone just added 3 Romanian Shepherd Dogs to the list.  Another set to decide what names to use. :-)  They're legit breeds; according to this Tripod site they're about to be recognized by the FCI. But they have a bunch of possible names; see this site on Molosser-and-related breeds.  The first site indicates that the 3 should be Mioritic (old name  Barac), Carpatin  (old name  Zãvod), and  Ciobănesc de Bucovina, not simply Bucovina (dog).  Since they're rare breeds, guess we'll have to figure out which name to use--  
*For Bucovina:  BUKOVINA SHEPHERD (Ciobanesc Romanesc de Bucovina, Ciobanesc de Bucovina, Romanian Bukovina Sheepdog, Bukovina Wolfdog, Bukovinac, Bucovina Sheepdog)
:NOTE: Bukovina (and redir from Bucovina) is a place name, so it looks like Ciobănesc de Bucovina would be the better name to use for the dog link. (Other choice would be Bucovina (dog), which we can do also & put as a redirect, I suppose.)
* For Carpatin: CARPATHIAN SHEPHERD DOG (Ciobanesc Romanesc Carpatin, Romanian Carpathian Shepherd, Caine Ciobanesc Carpatian, Carpathian Sheepdog, Carpatin, Romanian Carpatin Herder, Rumanian Carpatin)
*For Mioritic: MIORITIC SHEEPDOG (Ciobanesc Romanesc de Mioritic, Romanian Mioritic Sheepdog, Mocano, Barac, Rumanian Barak)
Looks like it might also be worth having a page on Romanian shepherd dogs, although the Tripod site calls them Romanian sheep dogs.  Thoughts? Also should have a page for Molossus (dog). (Hmm, not in the books I'm currently looking at but I know I've encountered that category of breeds many times before.) Elf | Talk 19:09, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Romanian Shepherd Dogs 

message: The Estrela Mountain Dog (Working group designation) and the Portuguese Podengo (Hound group designation) have also just been accepted into the AKC's FSS category.  Elf | Talk 01:05, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  New AKC FSS dogs 

message: Please review my proposed renames & moves on Talk:Akita Inu. Thanks.  Elf | Talk 22:55, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feedback wanted on Akita 

message: See discussion & closed vote at Talk:Airedale_Terrier#Move_requested:_Capitalization_of_dog_breed_names.  Elf | Talk 01:03, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization of breed names 

message: Per FCI: Ogar Polski - FCI Standard No. 052 (Brachet polonais, Polnische Bracke, Polish Hound, Sabueso Polaco); list earlier researched indicated that Polish Hound would be the most commonly used English name.  Elf | Talk 23:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish Ogar/Hound