Talk:Greeks/Archive 2

message: Bold text==The 3RR does not apply to reverting abusive 87.202... edits==
Please leave this note at the top of the page.
The user operating IPs in the 87.202.xx range  has been warned about edit warring, disruption, and insulting edit summaries on User talk:87.202.25.88. As for 3RR violations, I didn't even bother, as 87.202.25.88 was already blocked for that.  The user has continued the destructive editing, and I would like to block him/her. Unfortunately I didn't know just how dynamic these IPs are when I placed the warning; a block would be quite likely to hit innocent and virtuous users. I'll see what technical marvels I can perform later, but meanwhile, please note this: any collaborative editor on this page should feel free to revert abusive and/or reverting edits from the 87.202.xx range even if it means reverting more than 3 times in 24 hours. Please mention this note in your edit summary if you do that, and refer any admin who wishes to discuss the matter to me. Bishonen | talk 06:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heavy handed-bish. RAWR! Bishzilla taking on the world! Next: World Tour! Project2501a 10:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And tell 'em I'll see 'em in Tokyo. Bishonen | talk 13:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I think this should be touched upon here, since I'm even curious. Antidote 00:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What happened to all the Greeks of Byzantine?

message: Someone keeps changing the 2001 Census for Greece on the Greeks page. The 2001 Census recorded 10.964.020 Greeks[see Demographics of Greece] Just to remind everyone the Census is held every 10 years in Greece. The 2003 figure of 11.000 883 is not a Census figure because there was no 2003 Census in Greece.
Thank you [GS Australia]
It is an estimation,not a census.the word 'census' has been removed.--Hectorian 02:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hellenic Census

message: Why does the infobox include Pontic, isn't Pontic supposed to be a Greek dialect? I'm asking because if idioms like Pontic are to be included, then Tsakonian should be there as well. Pontic, Tsakonian, Cypriot, Cretan etc are usually viewed (by Greeks at least) as mere regional variations of Greek , so if specific dialects are to be mentioned, then shouldn't all of them be mentioned? Latinus 10:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pontic? 

message: Why is Justinian presented to be a greek along Plato and Pericles and even Heléna? What is the new historical evidence that suggests the Roman Emperor felt like greek or identified himself as greek? Did you read it anywhere? Donnerstag 15:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Justinian was a Byzantine Emperor actually. Put it more accuratelly Justinian was an Eastern Roman Emperor. Given the fact that the Eastern Roman Empire was based upon the foundations of Greco-Roman civilisation/culture and the Greek language was the de facto official one during the Justinian years the emperor was a part of the greater Greek dominated part of the world.  In a broader view Justinian could be perceived as Greek in the same manner that Stalin is mostly perceived as Russian although he was Georgian (with Georgia being a part of a communist Russian empire) or Hitler is perceived as German although his origins were Austro-Jewish. Using nowadays political map though Justinian originated from the near the city of modern Scopje in the F.Y.R.O.M. but was he Serbian though? Just to help you Serbians aka Slavic people migrated at that region during his years, but he couldn't be Slav since he was an aristocrat while Slavs were barbarians at those years. On the other hand when it comes to me I have a bad habit of classifying all Byzantine historical characters as Greek since to my knowledge (...fan of this historical period myself) the Byzantine Empire was a pure Greek state just as like the HRE was Germanic or the Ottoman was Turkish. Actually Kemal Ataturk borned in Salonica, was he Greek?? Hopefully this answers your question. Astavrou 21:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Justinian I photo 

message: There was leaked information from the Bank of Cyprus in the late 1990s that the absolute maximum number of GC in the UK was well bellow 80,000. The survey was carried out to help them in their expansion program. The numbers were never published. If we take this figure into account, then the outer maximum of Greeks in the UK (including the 28,000 Greek students) is around 125,000. We should stop kidding ourselves, den kanoume paidia / we are not reproducing. The Greek Cypriots boost the numbers for 'lobbying' reasons. In the UK census, the GC line was that no GC or Greek should declare their ethnicity. Why? Because our overall UK numbers would indicate less than 60,000! If anyone has real or plausible statistics, lets have them. Politis 18:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The figure was leaked by an official of the bank at a conference on the ROC during a conversation, in the late 1990s. There is strictly no evidence backing the 200,000 figure. NO EVIDENCE. In the US, people were invited to declare their heritage, we know the numbers. In the UK the Greeks and GC were discouraged to do so and hardly any did. If YOU have reliable numbers, please lets have them. The SAE and ggae.gr have carried out NO RESEARCH of their own, they simply repeat the figure handed to them. The GC in the UK population is not increasing but steadily decreasing, through intermarriage, lack of interest, deaths and returns to Cyprus. The decrease if reflected in falling church attendances during our Pascha and other key festivals. It is reflected in the falling numbers of membership in associations. We boost our numbers because it makes us feel good, because some people receive money (polla lefta) from Athens and the local UK authorities dependent on 'numbers', and because we are tembelides to do anything about the decrease. If you are a disaprora expert, you know it. I am as unhappy as you about the truth. Alla etsi einai file mou.  - Politis, 3 March 2006
U say that the 200,000 figure based in the Gen.sec.of greeks abroad and in the BBC does not consist an evidence...But u also have provided NO EVIDENCE for the opposite...u just say that a bank official barely said something in a conference...Come on!u do not give any evidence!As far as i know,the UK census is not an ethnic one but a racial one,see Demographics of England from the 2001 United Kingdom census.so,how the greeks or GC should be counted?if they were 'discouraged' as u said,we would have a minimum number.now,we have no number at all(they are included in the 'Whites').what does it mean?that there is no GC in the UK?I do not think that attendances at church during Parcha etc,is a reliable source,cause neither in greece the church attendances grow in numbers...but this does not mean that we have stopped been greeks.also,many greeks abroad have converted(through intermarriages mainly) to other christian doctrines(and religions) or are atheists.religion has stop been a strict ethnic characteristic.and since u mentioned the USA census,it would be interesting for u to see how many people declared their german-american heritage in 1991 and how many in 2001.the gap is rather large!i guess u will agree with me that censa are made for political purposes...Etsi den einai file mou?--Hectorian 18:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Between us we have established a clear fact: there exists no evidence in the UK regarding the number of Greeks and GC. Therefore, any number is based on speculation or self-interest. The only clear statistic we have access to is the 'place of birth' entry. In 1991, around 58,000 declared Cyprus as their birth place (I cannot find the appropriate source). Loipon, exoume kai leme: These consist of up to 30% Turkish Cypriots (more TC left the north due to the embargo and situation), up to 5% are various British (including Maronites, military, etc), which leaves us with up to 70? GC, or 46,000 GC. Even if this number, through birthrates, increased by 100%(!) (a gross exageration), we have 92,000. Substract from this number 10% for those who returned and passed away, and we are left with around 81,000. But perhaps up to one third marry out, they have no property in Cyprus and cut their links. This leaves us with between 60-75,000 Greek Cypriots. The immigration flow from Cyprus since 1991 has been near non-existant; in fact,the outflow has increased due to the economic boom in the south. Likewise, the Anglo-Greek shipping is discovering the benefits of moving to Piraeus.
As for the census. There is a White (other) option. All info, greatfully received. Auta gia twra. Politis 11:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The only thing I am trying to meiwsw is our omfaloskopia. Yes, I know that I am speculating, but at least I am speculating along reasonable lines, not picking a number. We need to be acutely aware of our real numbers; it is all an extension of the basic philosophical principle of 'know thyself' that one of our cleverer ancestors tought us - before he was made to drink a little hemloc by some less clever ancestors. These two words were also inscribed in Delphi, on the oracle-shrine; in other words, it is good to hear some 'artzi bourtzi kai loulas', but it is also good to know who - or in this case, how many we are in the UK. Politis 13:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

text: OK Politis 14:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of Greek Cypriots in UK

message: Come on. There are a thousand famous Greeks and you had to pick Constantine XI - the last Byzantine Emperor - who even expressed him-self as a non-Greek. Why not put Emperor Justinian or other more famous figures? --147.91.1.45 00:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: Apologies for the intrusion, but it's occurred to me that we may be going about this in quite the wrong way. We seem simply to be defining the Greeks in terms an essay of the history of Greek nationalism (the text I posted above included). Who are the Greeks of today? At the moment, we begin by defining Greeks solely as an ethnic group (Is a non-ethnic-greek citizen of Greece not a Greek?) - then we proceed to describe the socio-political history of the region. I'm quite happy for the article to discuss the history of Greek nationalism (or whatever you want to call it), but I'm worried that the article reads more like a narrative than an encyclopaedia article. What I propose is that we take the points we've already got (subject to above discussions), and divide them up across the possible ways of defining Greekness: Ethnicity, Culture, Political unity, Religion, Language, and so on. That way, we can include the histories of each without obscuring the different points being made. --Nema Fakei 13:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems a reasonable approach. Septentrionalis 16:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened to the present? 

message: Miskin, why did you remove the reference to Bien's article?  Peter Bien is a well-known professor at Dartmouth College who has been researching and publishing on Greek literature and history for decades.  He is one of the founders of the Modern Greek Studies Association.  The article was published in the Journal of Modern Greek Studies, a highly reputable journal -- indeed, the only international journal on modern Greek studies.  Apparently you feel free to exclude POVs which disagree with your superior personal judgement. --Macrakis 15:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Everything I removed was in fact POV, under the accusation of giving the article "special treatment". Which part are you referring to? I didn't remove any references to Greek literature. Miskin 16:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am referring to the bibliographic reference to Bien's article.  I do not know what you mean by "under the accusation of giving the article 'special treatment'"; can you translate that into English? Recall that the principle of NPOV is not to include no POVs, but to include all reputable ones. I will restore the reference to the Bien article. --Macrakis 16:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Restore it, I'm curious to see what you're talking about. Miskin 16:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't even remember seeing this. Was that all?? Miskin 16:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV censorship

message: Just like it was proposed by User:Politis, and agreed by me and hopefully by all other editors, this section has been deleted for the reasons of 1.Main discussion continuity, 2.Some things are better left behind. If anyone feels sooooo curious to read what unimportant talk was here, s/he can just see the history of this talk page, right before my deletion. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 15:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Irrelevant talk

message: hi guys,
I've just been observing some of the recent discussion and editing in this article, and I have a few suggestions. Whilst I respect all of your points of view, I feel that because of the diversity of points of view, the article could be confusing for a newcomer to the subject. For example, I noticed a couple of contradictions or ambiguities - 
"The modern Greeks consider themselves to be the inheritors of the ancient Greek and Byzantine civilizations and cultures" 
This line is perfectly true and reasonable, but it could also be construed to posses a subtly pejorative tone. I also think that "considers" creates some ambiguity with the "Modern and Ancient Greeks" section, which is high modality:
"Most modern ethnologists believe that there is a strong and continuous tradition linking ancient and modern Greeks genetically, linguistically and culturally over the millennia..."
Perhaps the ambiguity arises from the confusion of the unified identity of the Modern Greek nation (ex. Parrigopoulos or Caras drawing together the connections between periods in Greek history to create a amalgamated, solid ideology of Greek identity; sustaining a modern nation state), with the more fluid, but nonetheless persistant, presence of Greek culture and society in the Mediterranean? Thomas Gallant, a contemporary and well respected scholar of Modern Greece says, "The problem is not that Greece has too much history but that there are two related but still distinct histories involved - one being the history of the Greek people which, depending on how one defines the term Greek, extends back thousands of years and the other being the history of the Greek nation state, which has a relatively short history."(Thomas W. Gallant, "Brief Histories: Modern Greece"). 
On the one hand, I think it's important to establish the key transformations and differences between periods of Greek history - changes in government, administration, religion, worldview and self-perception - on the other hand, I think it's also important to establish the manifest continuities in the Greek experience - common language literature and ideas, common geography, society and the persistance of the diaspora. This would then allow the reader to make up their own mind, and also I think, to clarify an issue which has the tendency to descend into a nasty excercise in name calling. 
What if we created a new section to replace "Modern and Ancient Greeks" and "Identity of the Greek people", entitled: "Change and Continuity in Greek identity" (or something to that effect), so that the issue can be discussed more directly and neutrally? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Byz (talk • contribs) 17 March 2006, 12:55
:Sounds great. Are you new here, by the way? Welcome on board! Lukas (T.|@) 13:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. Shall we all try an experiment? Let's all of us who were involved in the dispute step back for a moment, and give Byz a day or two time to come up with an outline for a new version. Sometimes this kind of fresh air is just what's needed to overcome such an impasse. By the way, Byz, could you please sign your contributions? Just put four tildes (~~~~) behind your text, that automatically turns into your name and time stamp. -- Lukas (T.|@) 13:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me. Septentrionalis 21:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: You are more than welcome Byz! NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 11:14, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia does not exist to resolve issues; see the passages of WP:NPOV on presenting all sides of an issue. But the middle paragraphs of this seem a reasonable starting point, so I am inserting them, in the hope that they will inspire future text. Septentrionalis 18:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some ambiguities - time to reorganise points? 

message: Pmanderson said: "..."In the Ottoman Empire, it would be even easier. Any citizen who converts to Islam is automatically an Ottoman citizen, i.e. a Turk. That of course doesn't mean that the Ottoman Empire wasn't Turkish. Similarly today, any person who's born in France, is a French national, i.e. a French. That doesn't mean that France is not a French state now does it? Blatantly in the Byzantine Empire, any person who has a Romaic citizenship, takes up Orthodoxy and the Greek language, is a Greek. This is a process which applies to almost every state in the history of the world (except perhaps the 3rd Reich), so I really don't see any logic on what you're trying to say. Perhaps we should look at some articles from Britannica, beginning with Digenis:
"Digenis Akritas, the ideal medieval Greek hero, is a bold warrior of the Euphrates frontier, the son of a Saracen emir converted to Christianity by the daughter of a Byzantine general; he was a proficient warrior by the age of three and spent the rest of his life defending the Byzantine Empire from frontier invaders. The feeling for nature and strong family affections that permeate the epic anticipate the great Cretan national romance, Erotókritos (mid-17th century) by Vii
tzéntzos Kornáros, and much modern Greek popular poetry"
Surprise, Surprise! Digenis takes up Christianity and becomes a Greek! How come he doesn't become a Slav or a Saracen or an Armenian, I thought in your book 'Byzantine' could mean anything. And look what it says later on, Kornaros is inspired by a Greek hero to contribute on modern Greek poetry. What's modern Greek poetry doing in the 17th century? According to Macrakis and you, the "Greek" natioanlity is a product of the 19th century which stems from "romantic nationalism" and nothing more. I think an initial point is made on who's passing POV into the article and who is making edits based on sources.Let's take another look on what Britannica says about Byzantium, in e.g. ine Empire":
"Even though the Byzantine intellectual firmly believed that civilization ended with the boundaries of his world, he opened it to the barbarian, provided that the latter (with his kin) would accept Baptism and render loyalty to the emperor. Thanks to the settlements that resulted from such policies, many a name, seemingly Greek, disguises another of different origin: Slavic, perhaps, or Turkish."
Well, well more surprises here. The name "Greek" distinguishes an "ethnic Byzantine" from a Byzantine national of foreign origin. Doesn't that refute your claims on Byzantine meaning anything from Greek to Chinese? I think it does, and it also proves that the Greek ethnic identity never fell out of existence. But let's have a look at some more quotes and articles on those 'Byzantines'. What did non-Byzantines used to call them?
"To Frederick the alliance between the Holy Roman Empire and what he called “the kingdom of the Greeks” was not one between equals. Manuel launched a vain invasion of the Norman kingdom on his own account in 1154, but it was too late for a revival of Byzantine imperialism in the West.". 
What do you know, the German Emperor (or should I say 'Holy Roman'?) referred to Byzantium as the Empire of the Greeks. Did you even know that the entire European continent (Latin and Slavic) referred to Byzantium as 'Greece' and its people as 'Greeks'? How come they didn't refer to them as "Slavs" or "Armenians"? I think another point is made, and your theories on Byzantium being an "ethnically neutral" civilization are officially a POV. 
From the article "Greek Fire":
"More specifically the term refers to a mixture introduced by the Byzantine Greeks in the 7th century AD."
From the article "Hamdanid Dynasty":
"Aleppo and Homs had been won about 945 by Abū Taghlib's uncle, Sayf ad-Dawlah, who spent most of his reign (c. 943–967) defending his frontiers (from northern Syria to Armenia) against the Byzantine Greeks."
Why not 'Byzantine Slav' or 'Byzantine Arab', have you ever wondered? Do I even need to continue pasting modern references? I have entire books if you want. The term "Byzantine" was initially coined in order to "distinguish medieval Greek from ancient Roman history" (Georg Ostrogorsky. "History of the Byzantine State"), and today terms as "byzantines", "Greeks" and "Byzantine Greeks" are used interchangeably. Its contemporaries referred to the empire strictly as "Greek Kingdom" or "Greece" and to its people as "Greeks". This is factual information which I just sourced, hence your previous unsourced claims on the nature of the Byzantine Civilisation (supposedly not having a special affiliation to Greek) falls under POV. Miskin 15:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Byzantine Greeks 

message: I think it would be cool to put some pictures of celebrities with greek origin like Peter Andre (Andrea), jennifer Aniston, George Michael (Kyriakos Panagiotou), Paris Latsis and Tommy Lee (Thomas Leebas).
I just noticed that most of these greeks have been boyfriends of the hottest blonde celebrities: Jordan - Paris Hilton - Pamela Anderson!
Paris Latsis is a Greek national, not a celebrity of distant Greek origin like all the others you've mentioned. Anyway what you're asking is not compatible with the article. Miskin 14:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is the article List of Greeks , but i am not sure if pictures can be added there.btw,that article needs a real clean-up,in order to include only the prominent greeks,and not every greek young girl that sang once in her life!--Hectorian 15:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  celebrities with greek origin 

message: Miskin regards the version he reverted as POV and false. Therefore there exists both a PoV and acuuracy dispute, until he reverts himself. I will so tag, Let him state what he disputes. Septentrionalis 22:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you please stop attacking Pmanderson's supposed "biased personal agenda", and threatening edit wars, and stick to substantive arguments? --Macrakis 15:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

text: And before I remove the tags, would you be kind enough to paste for me in here the exact phrases that you're disputing? Miskin 23:25, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: If I thought what you just said, then I wouldn't be using foreign sources for my edits would I? Pmanderson's obesession and persistence should make you also wonder about his neutrality. Miskin 00:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who knows what sources you are using?  I don't see a single footnote or bibliographic reference for any edits in this article -- yours or anyone else's. --Macrakis 15:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

text: oh,yes.i remember that edit.but also have in mind that the contemporary historians were eyewitnesses in many cases (which along with αυτοψία-sorry,i can't translate it-are the characteristics that make a good historian, as Herodotus had said). --Hectorian 00:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Our friend Herodotus has been called both "father of history" and (even in antiquity) "father of lies".  Eyewitnesses are great, but their testimony must be weighed against other evidence, both in the courts of law and in history.  I really don't understand your point here.  You seem to be saying that the whole field of history is useless, that all we need is contemporary sources, and we're done. --Macrakis 15:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No,it is not what i am saying.i am saying to include both contemporary and modern sources.and i asked u why u always say 'modern' and never say anything good about the contemporary.they have also their 'weight' and in many cases they are more reliable than a modern one.--Hectorian 15:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reliability of contemporary sources can only be established through other textual, philological, archaeological, and other evidence. Their interpretation also depends on these other fields.  --Macrakis 13:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It all depends on the credibility of the sources. I like modern sources who cite contemporaries. Miskin 14:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dispute

message: I removed Oedipus, cause he cannot be listed in that section. he was not descendant of Kadmus. according to the myth, Kadmus killed the dragon that was protecting Thebes's terrain and from the teeth of the dragon the Thebans were born...so... I will check the other myths as well, although i am unsure if such a paragraph is really necessary. --Hectorian 20:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Descent of Hellen 

message: Should the alternative languages of the Greek identifying bilingual Greek populations (Aromanian, Arvanitika, Bulgarian, Turkish, Russian etc) be mentioned (if not in the infobox, somewhere else)? I've long thought that an article layout resembling the one at English people is needed, where linguistic and religious variation can be discussed in detail. --Telex 12:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both are ok, if we also provide estimated numbers and notes (like "...used along with Greek..." and "...self-identify as Angelina Jolie [Jesus, this is getting serious] Greeks..."), not to create confusion that Greeks are some sort of Babelonians...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 12:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language and religion 

message: There is no evidence to support this claim since Greeks have an effectively stable population with births=deaths. The correct figure, in the absence of any known immigration of Greeks since 2001, is that given by the 2001 Census. Any increase in population is caused by immigrants, as was also the case 1991-2001. So kindly put the figure back to where it was before, at 10,3m Greeks living in Greece. ANYTHING ELSE IS BLATANT NATIONALISTIC PROPAGANDA
CIA WORLD FACTBOOk states :10,688,058 (July 2006 est.) 
This is more reliable than your 2001 statistic. 
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gr.html#People
BBC states Population: 11 million (UN, 2005) 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1009249.stm#facts—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.182.94 (talk • contribs) 
:No need to shout.  Jkelly 03:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would everyone please sign their comments.  One can do so using ~~~~.  Thanks.  Jkelly 00:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popuation figures 

message: I have removed a few unsigned personal attacks from this space. Get a grip, people. Unsigned and undated comments are just pointless. What kind of discussion is it when nobody knows who's saying what? Please try to get your heads round Jkelly's advice about typing four tildes, ~~~~, for automatic signing with username (or IP, if you don't have a username) and timestamp. Please note that no personal attacks is official policy. Don't call people "pathetic", address their arguments. Bishonen | talk 09:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal attacks and signatures

message: This user has made one comment on the discussion boards concerning this, he has recieved replies, and as of yet not replied, yet he continues to revert material. Including a new picture I made for the infobox. I have already informed an admin, who has stated he is looking into it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.0.221 (talk • contribs) 05:44, June 27, 2006
:Actually your image was not reverted by Telex, but by another anon (user 84.164.239.158 - see this). I am sure Telex supports your new image, the same way that I do, as it is obvious by this edit. What is the rest of your comment about? If for the intro paragraph, then the one user who has responded (me) supports the change. What would there be for him to respond to an agreement? You seem very familiar with WP procedures (admins/pics etc). Would you be kind enough to log in and use your existing username, or register if you don't have one? Just so that we know that you're the same person talking everytime, since IP's change... :NikoSilver: 12:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding recent Telex edits

message: Greek Ancestry
I was wondering if we should put in a section about Greek ancestry – their genetical make up since this is an article about Greek people. Greeks mainly falls into a north African and Arab haplogroup, that is E3b and J with other contributions as well. see these links
  
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html
From the links we can see that Greeks have a strong relationship between North Africans and Arabs. See haplogroup J in the National Geographic webpage and see also haplogroup J2 (m172) and in particular E3b (M35).
:There's no such information in neither of the links you provided. There's no way you'll succeed in vandalising this article with your crap, you're only wasting your time. You might as well try to do something useful in your spare time. Miskin 08:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Check my proposal on how to include this in this article in the first section on this page. Also, check the names of three of the "scholars" on the team: M. Blagoevska, V. Zdravkovska, K. Dimitroski. I rest my case ;-) --Tēlex 10:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Anon, may I draw your attention to this. If we say that this research found that the Greeks have sub-Saharan origins, then we will also have to mention that it also attributed sub-Saharan origins to the Japanese people, and all the other details which appear not in FYROM propaganda publications. --Tēlex 09:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid I don't understand the links. As far as I can see, they don't even mention Greeks. Also, as far as I know, all people descend from people in Africa. That's where humanity began - this issue belongs at human evolution, not here. --Tēlex 11:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: People don't know where the Greeks came from. According to John Chadwick, the Greek ethnicity came into being where it is now, in the southern Balkan peninsula. The Greeks' ancestors are sometimes referred to as the Pelasgians, and their origins belong in their own article. --Tēlex 11:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greek Ancestry 

message: This is an archieve, please do not edit it any further. Discussions should take place on the current talk page. Thanks.. Davidpdx 04:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archieve