Talk:Symon Petliura

message: Read the article written by a well-known Ukranian scholar: 
http://ukrlife.org/main/prosvita/petlura.htm
77.122.107.222 (talk) 23:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Petliura and Jews

message: Even more material from Taras Hunczak is given whereas no historian critical of Petlura is cited. Simply length-wise the article imbalanced. I see two possibilities: (i) add citation from the critical historians, but this will make the whole article too long. (ii) trim with the Taras Hunczak citation. 
Also the historians who are critical of Petliura do not claim that lack of activity indirectly encouraged the pogroms, rather his lack of activity encouraged the pogroms and he was well aware of this. 
I plan to move the reference to the Ukrainian-Jewish source to the legacy and add about the way Petliura is remembered in Israel and the Jewish world.    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.77.4.129 (talk) 00:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Role in Pogroms is even more unbalanced now

message: User Bandurist removed many changes and improvements for some reason. If there is an argument about using Soviet Union or Bolshevik Russia we can debate it. (The Soviet Union was formed in December 1922.) 
Yes the papers were signed December 30 1922, but it did not come into existance until Jan 1 1923. Up until then ..... Ukrainian sources state that the USSR came into being in 1923. But is was Bolshevik Russia he fought against not the USSR Bandurist 14:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: USSR - Bolshevyk Russia

message: The role in pogroms is still not balanced. Also there are two problems with citations. One is "original research", pointing out to documents trying to prove a position where these document authenticity is in doubt. It is best to use this as attributed to a historian - e.g. if Taras Hunczak relied on it then say Taras Hunczak pointed out...
The citation below is not to a scholar and what this person writes has no scholarly weight  on the question of the Petliura's role in the pogroms. There is some interest in this piece, since it shows how some elements in the Jewish community in Ukraine today are thinking of Petliura. So I suggest moving it Petliura's Letter Legacy.  
Some Jewish scholars have reconsidered Petlura's role and the situation during the Civil War. They are placed the blame for the Pogroms on either a minority, or Denikin's "White Guards" who upset at losing to the Bolsheviks, took out their rage on the local Jewish population. [8]
If you want to cite a Jewish scholar who reconsidered the position you can use Henry Abramson.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mashkin (talk • contribs) 11:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Role in Pogroms still needs work

message: I moved the huge material to the article about the assassin.
However, the article is now still biased.
What is missing here, the account of the effort of the Petlura to stop the pogroms and witness testimony that he was not an anti-Semite himself.
I hope that anynody can help me with NPOV this article. Cautious 09:19, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: The fact was, that Shalom Shwartzbard and his family lived closer to Turkey, an area which was not even part of the Ukrainian Republic at that time. And Petliura's armies could not reach him, okay, let's just admit that Schwarzbard was a Soviet agent, and he killed an innocent human being for no reason. The fact was, that the pogroms were comitted by the RUSSIAN ARMY not the Ukrainian, which was actually trying to drive them out. Second of all, Petliura had a Jewish minister in his cabinet, as well as a ministry of Jewish affairs.  He actually attempted to collaborate with them against the Russian army. Adolf23653 05:14, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is genuine while the particular site is indeed spammy. Here is the replacement link to the same document published at the more respectable web-site. http://www.ukrcenter.com/library/read.asp?id=374 --Irpen 07:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Leaving aside the websites, it is the source that I question. Incidentally, Український Центр не несе відповідальности за опубліковані матеріяли. Sergivs-en 17:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What historic works? I can't say for sure whether it's falsified or not. It does seem very suspicious, given the atrocities that went on while he was -- at least nominally -- in power. Either they happened with his approval, maybe tacit approval, or he had no real control of the situation. The burden of proof is on Petlura's supporters. If the article claims that he made serious attempts to stop the pogroms, which I seriously doubt, then there better be more serious evidence than some nationalistic website quoting some text without sources. Sergivs-en 01:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I did not realize before that this was supposed to be a letter.  Perhaps, it did exist, and we both agree that it does not prove lack of complicity.  But I certainly cannot assume that it existed just because (as I discovered by now) it was posted on multiple websites, even if one of them is Russophile, and, apparently, in two books. For instance, Riabchuk does not seem to mention the source; I also skimmed over the introduction, which seemed quite tendentious to me, although it might be interesting to read this book later more carefully. By the way, the most convincing exoneration of Petlura that I read so far was a quote from an article by Zhabotinsky that Riabchuk cites right after the Appeal.  However, it does not concern the text of the Appeal. And I am still convinced in Petlura's guilt, whether direct or not, since I believe that tens of thousands of innocent people had been murdered by his subordinates. This is why I think any arguments in his support need to be treated skeptically. Sergivs-en 01:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The fact is, user:adolf (any clue?), is that Schwartzbard's family moved to somewhere near Odessa. We can't 'just admit' anything. It has never been proven. AllenHansen (talk) 16:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appeal to Ukrainian Army 

message: People, I doubt the wording "President" for formal reasons purely. I mean Leonid Kravchuk and Leonid Kuchma are f**n assho*es, but they were legitimate presidents, elected by millions, with constitutionally regulated authority. Can we apply all this to Petliura (who was, no doubt, an outstanding leader)? Pryvit, AlexPU
: Pryvit. I think he was head of the Directory, not president. I will mark this article for myself and see to it later, after checking the facts (and yet, there is no article about the Directory either). You touch upon one minor (or so it seems) issue, and pull out a whole bunch of omissions, lack of neutrality, or outright falsification (being impressionistic on this point, rather then factual. however, some falsifications have become mainstream theory - see Da Vinci Code for that matter ;)). In general, as for Ukrainian related articles, would like to recommend the Encyclopeda of Ukraine, published in Canada pretty good in English in 1989-1991 (deplorably, there is no article on this encyclopedia either). Compay 23:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: He certainly wasn't the president. The only pre-Kravchuk president of Ukraine was Hrushevsky. Compay, you may check the Ukraine portal with its notice boards to get a clue of what articles exist. We have a well written, although unfinished, Ukrainian People's Republic. You may check its links for more. --Irpen 00:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the Ukrainian Wiki page on Hrushevsky, he was never president of UPR, and there was no such post. Sergivs-en 17:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  President? 

message: born May 17 [May 5, Old Style], 1879
died May 26, 1926
Lotsofissues 10:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Britannica provides these dates 

message: Another spelling issue - this one is mainly for consistency.  Usage of all three within the article reflects differeng views, either past or present, on how the name should be spelt.  On the other hand, the article title is Symon Petlura, at the start of the article he is called Symon Petlyura, and for each subsequent subheading his name is spelt Symon Petliura.  I could not say whether people who had either never heard of or read about him previously, or had not seen his name written in English before, would find this confusing or difficult to follow.  I have not made any edits in relation to this issue, and just wonder what others think.
 
The Petlura family (his brothers son) spell their name Petlura. In Ukrainian, and in particular in the Poltava region, all vowels after an l are softened. This is the case here as well Bandurist 03:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Petlura, Petlyura and Petliura 

message: What is missing is the 1000's of articles Petlura penned in his writing to various journals and as the editor of various journals, in particular Ukrainskaya zhyzn' in Moscow in Russian. He wrote under a number of pseudonyms. The magazine played a major role in the formation of Ukrainian thinking and was banned in the Soviet Union. From what I can gather a full set only exists in Moscow. There have been a number of studies done recently on his writings - but this wiki article has not addressed this aspect of the man but seems to dwell more on things such as pogroms which he was never directly associated with at all. Bandurist 03:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where might one find at least a hundred of his masterpieces?  Sergivs-en 01:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Petlura the journalist and writer 

message: In Wiki article on Nestor Makhno, there is the following, "In March 1918, the RIAU succeeded in defeating the Germans, Austrians, Ukrainian Nationalists of Symon Petlura, and multiple regiments of the White Army." Therefore, I am adding Makhno to the list of those Petlura fought. 75.84.97.215 11:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nestor Makhno 

message: 1) Schwartzbard was a Jewish poet, anarchist (he participated in anarchists' robberies in Austro-Hungary) and decorated veteran of the French Foreign Legion, whose
What has Schwartzbards poetry have in common with his murdering Petlura. If my memory serves he started writing late in life and was not known for his writting at the time when he brutally murdered Petlura.
Anarchist robberies. Armed robbery is armed robbery. It is criminal act, - at least in all the countries I have lived in. What has anarchism got to do with it.
: Without saying what sort of robberies they were one may get the impression that Petlura was mugged.
Decoration - OK. however I feel that that should go in the discussion re the trial, as that would be a strong mitigating circumstance for the Juries decision. Normally murderers are not decorated, and in most cases any decorations they may have had are taken away with criminal acts.
Ukrainian outlets (emigrants at the time and nowadays the Ukrainian government) describe Schwartzbard as a Soviet agent
is poor writing and non-encyclopeidic, particularly the use of the word nowdays. 
It should be changed back to
The Ukrainian emigration and the Ukrainian government consider Schwartzbard a Soviet agent
ThIS SORT OF STUFF IS HATE MATERIAL
+ In Israel and the Jewish world Petlura is mostly remembered as a leader responsible for vicious pogroms (see for instance the Holocaust Encyclopedia, Yad Vashem  and the writing on the street sign  honoring Schwartzbard in Beersheba). 
aND SHOULD BE REMOVED
: This is not hate material. This is part of Petlura's legacy. This represents the way he is remembered in most Jewish and Israeli outlets. The sources chosen are very serious - the Holocaust Encyclopedia and Yad Vashem. This does not mean you have to take their word, but it means that they are representative. Remember this is not for arguing about Petlura's role in the pogroms, rather it is to show the way he is portrayed. The street sign is significant, since this more people see street signs than read encyclopedias. Remember, Wikipedia should have an NPOV. Petlura is remembered completely differently in Ukraine and in Israel. This should be represented in Wikipedia. 
Mashkin 00:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  What is an "anarchist" robbery?  How about " Schwartzbard was a Jewish anarchist (he participated in armed crimes in Austro-Hungary) and decorated veteran of the French Foreign Legion, whose..."? Ostap 20:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Added the explanation regarding the robberies
Mashkin 00:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Mashkin, is the anti-Jewish label before pogrom necessary?  The fact that they were anti-Jewish has been established in the "role in pogroms" section.  Also, what is an "anarchist bank robbery"?  A robbery is a robbery, I say remove that anarchist label. Ostap 01:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.  What is an "anarchist" robbery?  How about " Schwartzbard was a Jewish anarchist (he participated in armed crimes in Austro-Hungary) and decorated veteran of the French Foreign Legion, whose..."? [[User:Ostap R|Ostap]This should be the version posted on the article.
Mona23653 14:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest changes 

message: User:Mona23653 keeps removing the reference to an important reference to a table with numbers on the victims. This user provides no explanation to the action.  This is right after I complained about the imbalance in length of the paragraphs and asked the User to quit doing such things. This is simply abusive behavior with no justification.
I have a sentence with the whole life story of Schwartzbard, not need to repeat it.
Mashkin 18:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Caustic edits

message: The spelling (petlura) in the article doesn't match the title (petliura).  If this is the correct spelling, perhaps a page move should be discussed?  Ostap 22:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page name 

message: When he emigrated to Lviv, it was called Lemberg and it was an Ukrainian city no less than it was Polish.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.163.61.178 (talk) 11:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names of Localties 

message: Why in the role of pogroms section, does it say Petliura's invasion of UKraine? I think this needs to be clarified  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mona23653 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invasion? 

message: This was deleted without explanation:     
Jonathan Littell in his 2006 novel Les Bienveillantes describes a pogrom agains Jews committed at the beginning of the war by Ukrainian militias "wearing blue and yellow ribbons", the national colours of the Ukraine. The new German occupation authorities tolerate and encourage this under the name "Aktion Petliura". --Alex1011 (talk) 16:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The explanation was given in the Edit summary. The material was not sourced. However, is this the place to add secondary material from a fictional novel. It is an encyclopedia. I would suggest a separate article with references linking to this article. In the mean time this information would be beeter placed under Lviv pogroms or Lwow ghetto Bandurist (talk) 16:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Jonathan Littell]] 

message: More streets named after him then only in Rivne and Kyiv (Lviv)? How bout 1 in Donetsk ;) ! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Streets 

message: The current link does not work but I've found this article at the same site in Russian - .
This is the passage from the article referenced by Frenkel's work:
There are several problems here: first, Mikhail Frenkel  is one of, not some Ukrainian-Jewish leaders.
Second, he doesn't quite shift the blame from Petlyura to some mysterious minority or to Denikin's forces in the article (and the reasoning about their anger about losing to Bolsheviks as a cause of their actions is also nowhere to be found). This is what he actually says:
So in his opinion White Army was responsible for more pogroms than Petlyura's forces but this is not shifting of blame from Petlyura. White Army's behaviour is in fact rather irrelevant to this article, although it should be fully described elsewhere. Alæxis¿question? 17:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I was on vacation. Please tell me if you find any inaccuracies in my translation. Alæxis¿question? 07:52, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mikhail Frenkel on Petlyura  

message: This is what is written in the article:
Unfortunately the only information I could find about Pinchas Krasny (the Red) was a short article from Short Jewish Encyclopaedia at an Israeli site. This is what written there:
So, how could he represent the Jewish population of Ukraine in any way in 1922 or later?
Second, Krasny's letter of gratitude (provided it existed) should be taken in context of his later work.
I don't have the access to Serhiychuk's paper but either he was inaccurate or misinterpreted (if someone has the article at hand, please check it). In both cases there exist doubts about the accuracy of the information that is currently sourced by this paper so I'd ask for alternative sources (Western or Israeli, preferably) backing Sehiychuk's claims. Alæxis¿question? 18:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Any material post-Krasny's return to USSR would no longer be reliable, for obvious reasons.Galassi (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with you here. However I have not intended to use this book as a source for this article (its reliability is indeed dubious). What I want to say is that Krasny himself and his words are taken out of context (the only Jewish minister (or Petlyura's lackey in less favorable sources) in the Directorate, his return to USSR at his own will, his book). And all my other points remain valid also. Alæxis¿question? 19:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have the Serh. book, BTW.Galassi (talk) 20:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  So was his book used properly? Did he really write what is attributed to him in this article in these words? Alæxis¿question? 05:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes. The book is actually excellently researched and FOOTNOTED.Galassi (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Here translations were provided from the beginning (in cursive after the Russian text). Alæxis¿question? 08:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Serhiychuk's reliability

message: As Petluria personally killed several members of my family after the Czar was killed, I find this page to be very biased and non NPOV... 
Case in point: On May 25, 1919 Peturia entered the town synagogue of the town of Radomsyzl, Ukraine, and shot the Rabbi of the town and his son in cold blood, for no reason.
JJ211219 (talk) 12:38, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Petluria- Murderer and anti semite 

message: The spelling used on Petlura's gave in paris is PETLURA rather than Petliura. His family living in North America also uses the spelling PETLURA in English. 
In Ukrainian, and particularly in the Poltava dialect, all vowels after an L are pronounced soft. I.e. Moloko become molioko, klas  becomes klias etc. The library and materials in french also use the PETLURA spelling
Література: Тютюнник Ю. З поляками проти Вкраїни. X. 1924; Documents de Simon Petlura a Paris. Париж 1927; Лотоцький О. Симон Петлюра. В. 1936; Симон Петлюра в молодості. 36. споминів під ред. А. Жука. Л. 1936; Зленко П. Симон Петлюра (Матеріяли для бібліографічного покажчика). Париж 1939; Іванис В. Симон Петлюра - президент України, 1879-1926. Торонто 1952; Петлюра С. Статті, листи, документи. Нью-Йорк 1956; Документ суд. помилки. Париж 1958; En notre âme et conscience - la verité sur Simon Petlura. Париж 1958; Desroches A. Le problème ukrainien et Simon Petlura. Le Feu et le Cendre. Париж 1962. 
I propose to change the spelling used to PETLURA. Bandurist (talk) 02:52, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that would work, due to the overwhelming preponderance of the current spelling, per common usage rule...--Galassi (talk) 11:14, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Common usage: 
Petlura gives me 126,000 hits
Petliura gives me 79,200 hits
So it seems that common usage is Petlura. Bandurist (talk) 02:28, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  PetLYUra gives 229,000 hits, and adheres to the modern rules of translit.--Galassi (talk) 09:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change of name 

message: Here is a recent find of an anti-pogrom leaflet signed by Petlura http://www.istpravda.com.ua/articles/2011/05/26/40621/ .  Comments anyone? Bandurist (talk) 11:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: New publicatation

message: The German historian Götz Aly just published some commentary on this article in German newspaper. The gist of it is, that the treatment of Petliura is somewhat biased and not critical enough, which is partially due to a selective use of literature. According to him important literature has not been evaluted/is missing:
*http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/meinung/kolumne-chauvinismus-in-der-google-welt,10808020,33057668.html
--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:20, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  not critical enough?

message: Hero, mass murderer or whatever! Please make sure whatever view of him you plan to include that it is sourced by reputable publication/Literature (preferably scholarly publication). Do not include unsourced views as this is clear policy violation.--Kmhkmh (talk) 15:24, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S.: See also User_talk:AA999#edits_at_Symon_Petliura--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:04, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

text: Family evidence of 1918? Has it been published? Xx236 (talk) 09:16, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: views of Petliura

message: Currently the hyperlink under the section heading Role in pogroms (#6 in the Contents list) is Pogroms in Ukraine. Since that page automatically redirects to Antisemitism in Ukraine it should be changed. Mcljlm (talk) 01:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hyperlink to a Main Article 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "It has been documented that Petliura actively sought to halt anti-Jewish violence on numerous occasions, introducing capital punishment for the crime of pogroming"
This (at the very end) includes several citations from the same author. I do not think any of the sources cited are reliable but at the very least the same author shouldn't get 3 or 4 of the citations... 2600:1700:A1C1:9C20:580F:2570:9FD6:479E (talk) 04:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable sources and Same source listed several times