Talk:Michael Ignatieff/Archive 7/Ancillary

message: This is shaping up, but I must confess I'm getting a bit lost in the changes. Is it possible to clean up the layout somehow to make it clear 1) what the original text was 2) what the suggested new text  is 3) if everyone agrees 4) if they don't, then what is the disagreement. Thanks. Tyrenius 04:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ignatieff's Harvard CV is still online.  It confirms the employment at the Globe and Mail (64-65) and at UBC (76-78 -- as an Assistant Prof. in history) He had then nine honourary degrees from Bishop's (95), Stirling University (Scotland, 99), Trinity College, U of T (99), UNB Fredericton (01), Queens (01), UWO (01), McGill (02), Regina (03) and Whitman College (in Washington State, 04).  It doesn't specify what the degrees were although we hadn't either.  --JGGardiner 20:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't the above info go in the relevant sub headings? Delete this note of mine, if the above is moved.Tyrenius 04:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly.  The reason that I put it there is because, like you, I was having trouble following the messy discussion below.  And since I thought that you were asking to start over, I was hoping to pre-empt the inclusion of those subjects in a new discussion since they seem well-sourced now (and few objected even before my source).  If we're keeping the old one, feel free to move my comments there if you'd like.  --JGGardiner 04:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many,many more points (including important self-serving statements) to be verified; I have added some more that are in the writings and other subsections. Obviously anyone is free to re-arrange the format of the discussion as I am doing the best I can with it being of no experience at all in formatting. Ottawaman 12:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is it typical for the links to refer to the entire reference list as opposed to a particular reference? It makes it very hard to verify. Ottawaman 13:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Misc

message: :*"married to Hungarian-born Zsuzanna M Zsohar" Ottawaman 13:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: **Cited here. --Hamiltonian 14:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: ***Dispute; Iggy's Campaign site is a self published and partisan source which requires an independent secondary source,imo. Ottawaman 18:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The policy on self-published articles states that "Material from self-published sources, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves".  The exceptions are only controversial things.  Is there credible reason to doubt that Mr. Ignatieff is married to Zsusanna Zohar, held the Fellowship at Cambridge, etc?  The partisan and self-published source is fine unless the information is contentious. -Joshuapaquin 18:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I read it policy differently. I read it to mean that either partison or self-published sources are suspect and should have secondary source confirmation; and Iggy's campaign website is both self published and partison. Even so, I certainly think that for Wikipedia to draw any information solely from a highly partison campaign website during a campaign makes Wikipedia an accessory to that campaign, or at least may be seen to be an accessory to that campaign. I am also very suspicious as to why Wikipedians would be going to Iggy's campaign website in the first place to draw information for this article? Is this normal? I just looked at George W. Bush's article and do not see his campaign website being used as a reference at all. ? Of course I doubt that Iggy is married and has all the credentials he said he did. His campaign has already been caught in many fibs ranging from important to innoculous. If necessary I can provide a big list of proven lies told by his campaign. Nothing in the article should rely solely on his campaign office; especially since it is not even listed as a reference nor should it be one. Ottawaman 19:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I went there because it was convenient and well-organized.  Now, is this an accurate quote, or did you just mistype? "Of course I doubt that Iggy is married".  Because this confuses me immensely.  (That is, I don't know why anyone would doubt this.) --Hamiltonian 19:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you read this you will see that Iggy's campaign admitted to giving out false information about the health of his mother-in-law. That, in addition to their obvious partisonship, tells me their information is unreliable and should not be relied upon as the sole source for anything at all. Ottawaman 19:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're correct, actually.  Ignatieff is not married to Zsuzanna M Zsohar.  He is instead married to Zsuzsanna Zsohar.  :-) --Hamiltonian 19:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good work; but I'm not even sure about that. There are at least 2 other spellings floating around. Ottawaman 19:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zsuzsanna Zsohar appears to be the preferred spelling in The Guardian, Harvard Magazine, the Liberal Party website and, yes, Ignatieff's own site.  --Hamiltonian 20:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I'll strike it off. Ottawaman 00:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Marriage (resolved)

message: ::Does most of the "recognition" material also come from Ignatieff's election campaign? The material below I did not see in the reference grouping. Ottawaman 01:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We can change Canadian scholar to Harvard scholar and I have struck one objection. With this much contributor interest we do not need to rely upon Iggy's election campaign site as the sole reference for any information regardless of how convenient and well organized their package of information is. Obviously all of the information which came solely from Iggy's election campaign should be second sourced or removed,imo. Ottawaman 19:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recognition 

message: :delete as reference#4 does not say this. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He clearly did travel to those places, as a journalist.  It is in his book Blood and Belonging.  I don't personally own the book so I'm not sure about the atrocities part but I'd leave the rest of it.  --JGGardiner 21:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This should be left. Ignatieff travelled to those places and wrote about it in his major works like B&B, Warrior's Honour and Empire Lite. He did witness some atrocities personally. The introduction to "Warrior's Honour" begins: "Between 1993 and 1997, I traveled through the landscapes of modern ethnic war, to Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia; to Rwanda, Burundi, Angola; and to Afghanistan. I saw the ruins of Vukovar, Huambo, and Kabul; the bodies in the church at Nyarubuye; and the orphans of Mazar al Sharif." In "Virtual War" he talks extensively about his time in the Balkans, and was present in Prizren and Djakovica when Louise Arbour and other War Crimes investigators were unearthing the mass graves left by Serbian death squads. - Finnegans wake 05:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't say he witnessed atrocities but rather "ruins","orphans" "mass graves"and dead bodies. You could see all of that in Lebanon today; doesn't mean there were "atrocities" and cetainly not personally witnessed atrocities. Ottawaman 16:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This must be semantics, as I hope you are not seriously questioning that atrocities occurred in either Kurdistan and the Balkans? The the atrocities committed by Hussein in his Anfal offensive in Kurdish Iraq  and the Serb's actions in places like Srebrenica are well documented. Your point must be that did not sit there and witness the atrocities himself, rather he saw the *results* of the atrocities? That is a rather trite point. Would you also say that Allied soldiers who entered Nazi death camps in 1945 and saw mass graves and piles of rotting bodies, could not be said to have "witnessed the atrocities" committed by the Nazis? Rather than deleting the line, then it should read "As a journalist, Michael Ignatieff has travelled to war torn areas such as Serbia, Rwanda, and Kurdish Iraq, witnessing first hand the carnage resulting from modern ethnic war." - Finnegans wake 16:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I must agree.  This does seem like splitting hairs.  I'm fine with the original or Finnegan's version.  I'd oppose deletion.  --JGGardiner 19:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Ottawaman has a good point, I don't think he witnessed the atrocities firsthand. The second half of the senctence needs to be changed, that;s all.  I disagree with Finnegans wake revised version, I don't think Wikipedia entries should sound like story telling.  Pete Peters 19:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please elaborate what you mean by "storytelling". My suggested revision is a concise reformulation. If you are going to weigh into the discussion, please provide justification for your description of my suggested revision, rather than one line of POV. And, if possible, do not ignore the balance of my comment above. No one is saying Ignatieff witnessed atrocities taking place first hand, but he certainly witnessed carnage resulting from atrocities. - Finnegans wake 20:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Me engineer, me like straight to the point.  Carnage, too vague, me not get. Pete Peters 21:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems we all agree that "witnessing first hand the atrocities in each" is a non-verified embelishment. I sense Peters feels much as I do that what he calls "storytelling" comes across like a flattering campaign brochure with embelishment and manufacturing of Ignatieff's accomplishments. I propose; " Michael Ignatieff saw the results of modern ethnic war when he visited Serbia, Rwanda, and Kurdish Iraq." The way it was written before was as if he was on some grand enlightenment/humanitarian/charitable mission when actually he was simply doing  his journalistic work. Did he actually do anything for the people in those countries while he was there? That would make it more relevant. I don't see where these trips belong in this CV at all; it would be like saying Donald Trump went to Australia to look at some luxury apartment buildings; so what? Ottawaman 21:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Unless we are now to be in-depth book reviewers I think we should avoid designing this CV to accomodate what we think motivates the author to write certain things in certain ways. Ottawaman 18:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but it's acceptable to summarize Ignatieff's writings. Otherwise, there'd be no way to describe them, right? And it warrants mention that Ignatieff has been in the very situation that his fictional characters have been in as well. Or are you arguing that this is unimportant? -- 72-139-185-19 19:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pleases be accurate in critique. It doesn't say that is what motivated him. It just sees we see elements of his life in the books, which, judging from the text above, is blindingly obvious. It could possibly be toned down slightly if desired, simply saying something along the lines of subjects/themes which parallel or overlap his own life experiences. Tyrenius 08:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

text: So the current section reads "His fictional works, Asya, Scar Tissue, and Charlie Johnson in the Flames cover, respectively, the life and travels of a Russian girl, the disintegration of one's mother due to neurological disease, and the haunting memories of a journalist in Kosovo. In all three works, however, one sees elements of the author's own life coming through. For instance, Ignatieff travelled to the Balkans and Kurdistan while working as a journalist, witnessing first hand the atrocities in each. Similarly, his historical memoir, The Russian Album, traces his family's life in Russia and their troubles and subsequent emigration as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution." Suggestions on how to reword? 72-139-185-19 15:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

text: "His fictional works, Asya, Scar Tissue, and Charlie Johnson in the Flames cover, respectively, the life and travels of a Russian girl, the disintegration of one's mother due to neurological disease, and the haunting memories of a journalist in Kosovo. In all three works, however, one sees elements of the author's own life coming through. For instance, Ignatieff travelled to the Balkans and Kurdistan while working as a journalist, witnessing first hand the consequences of modern ethnic warfare. Similarly, his historical memoir, The Russian Album, traces his family's life in Russia and their troubles and subsequent emigration as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution." [Italicized words represent suggested change].
As has been pointed out in the discussion, he didn't actually witness the atrocities (and probably not the carnage either), but he did tour the war zone. Can we go with this modification? Sunray 20:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Though I think many objections to the original formulation are unnecessary and semantic, I'm ok with this version. - Finnegans wake 22:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Consequences is cleaner, though maybe we could do "the consequences of modern ethnic cleansing". While I haven't read Charlie Johnson (yet), I understand that it's more about the latter. But either version works. 198.20.40.50 19:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Michael Ignatieff travelled to the Balkans and Kurdistan while working as a journalist, witnessing first hand the atrocities in each. --> ...witnessing the consequences of modern ethnic warfare (resolved)

message: Hamiltonian kindly pointed out this lengthy bio for Ignatieff. I propose we simply use this instead of the campaign website for background and recognition material. Ottawaman 12:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, I'll drop that issue. Sorry if I was too pushy about it. Ottawaman 18:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal 

message: ===Ignatieff has written extensively on the subject of international development,Cr===
peacekeeping, and the international responsibilities of Western nations. Critical of the limited-risk approach practiced by NATO in conflicts like the Kosovo War and the Rwandan Genocide, he has argued for a more active involvement and larger scale deployment of land forces by Western nations in future conflicts in the developing world.
:delete as non-verified opinion of the contributor. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, this brief KSG bibliography clearly demonstrate his "extensive writing" on internation affairs. As for the remainder, that is actually a pretty good description of Ignatieff's work in "Warrior's Honour", "Blood and Belonging" and "Virtual War". In the intro to "Virtual War" Ignatieff ties this "trilogy" together. - Finnegans wake 05:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's non-verified added flattery Ottawaman 16:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disagree. It is a description of someone's body of writing. This is fairly standard for encyclopedia entries. For example, if you examine the article for Will Kymlicka another Canadian social theorist (whom would be a good comparator for Ignatieff), says he is a "leader in the field of philosophy of multiculturalism" and says he has "written and edited several books on culture, race, minority language rights, and politics; these, and his other works have been extensively translated" - Finnegans wake 17:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree (with Finnegan).  I think that we are allowed a certain latitude to describe his work, subject matter and arguments, etc.  Just the same as we sumarize the arguments in the anti-Ignatieff articles without needing another source to explain them.  --JGGardiner 19:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's verified by the sources as an accurate description, then it's a standard and valid approach to summarise or introduce in this way. Are you prepared to accept this Ottawaman, or else please specify the exact grounds (bearing in mind the sources) for rejecting any particular point(s), stating your alternative text. Tyrenius 23:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I agree to leave this. Ottawaman 23:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  International Affairs

message: peacekeeping, and the international responsibilities of Western nations. Critical of the limited-risk approach practiced by NATO in conflicts like the Kosovo War and the Rwandan Genocide, he has argued for a more active involvement and larger scale deployment of land forces by Western nations in future conflicts in the developing world.
:delete as non-verified opinion of the contributor. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Again, this brief KSG bibliography clearly demonstrate his "extensive writing" on internation affairs. As for the remainder, that is actually a pretty good description of Ignatieff's work in "Warrior's Honour", "Blood and Belonging" and "Virtual War". In the intro to "Virtual War" Ignatieff ties this "trilogy" together. - Finnegans wake 05:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's non-verified added flattery Ottawaman 16:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disagree. It is a description of someone's body of writing. This is fairly standard for encyclopedia entries. For example, if you examine the article for Will Kymlicka another Canadian social theorist (whom would be a good comparator for Ignatieff), says he is a "leader in the field of philosophy of multiculturalism" and says he has "written and edited several books on culture, race, minority language rights, and politics; these, and his other works have been extensively translated" - Finnegans wake 17:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree (with Finnegan).  I think that we are allowed a certain latitude to describe his work, subject matter and arguments, etc.  Just the same as we sumarize the arguments in the anti-Ignatieff articles without needing another source to explain them.  --JGGardiner 19:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's verified by the sources as an accurate description, then it's a standard and valid approach to summarise or introduce in this way. Are you prepared to accept this Ottawaman, or else please specify the exact grounds (bearing in mind the sources) for rejecting any particular point(s), stating your alternative text. Tyrenius 23:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok, I agree to leave this. Ottawaman 23:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ignatieff has written extensively on the subject of international development,<span style="color:Red;">'''Cr'''</span>

message: ===lesser evilCr=== 
:I am against this title.  Did he invent the term lesser evil.  This should be changed to something more straightforward.  I am confused, as I am sure many readers are too. Pete Peters 03:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please suggest an alternative. Tyrenius 22:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pete - this is actually the title of Ignatieff's article. He wrote a piece on when free and democratic societies might need to do very unfree and very undemocratic things. It's not that long, but getting across the feel of the article has been a major sticking point. Try giving it a read (http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/news/opeds/2004/ignatieff_less_evils_nytm_050204.htm) - it's not that long and it's a much better source than anything we can summarize here. -- 72-139-185-19 16:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well as long as the page is edited with an entry like so, , giving a direct understanding of his what Lesser evils means, than the title can stay. Pete Peters 02:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. I'll mark this as CR and we can discuss the content of TLE below. 72-139-185-19 05:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus reached 72-139-185-19 05:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

text: delete as non-verified opinion of the contributor. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the deletion, not because it is a non-verified opinion (it is a fair summary of the thrust of Ignatieff's "Lesser Evils" address, although it doesn't go far enough since the address also deals with the need to detain suspects indefinitely, to use coersive torture, to assisinate, etc.), but because it doesn't add anything to the previous sentence. —Joel Bastedo 13:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus reached Tyrenius 17:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not disputing the consensus, I'm only suggesting that if the sentence is deleted, we should move the two-sentence paragraph that's left into the previous one. -- 72-139-185-19 16:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lesser evil approach 

message: :I am against this title.  Did he invent the term lesser evil.  This should be changed to something more straightforward.  I am confused, as I am sure many readers are too. Pete Peters 03:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please suggest an alternative. Tyrenius 22:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pete - this is actually the title of Ignatieff's article. He wrote a piece on when free and democratic societies might need to do very unfree and very undemocratic things. It's not that long, but getting across the feel of the article has been a major sticking point. Try giving it a read (http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/news/opeds/2004/ignatieff_less_evils_nytm_050204.htm) - it's not that long and it's a much better source than anything we can summarize here. -- 72-139-185-19 16:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well as long as the page is edited with an entry like so, , giving a direct understanding of his what Lesser evils means, than the title can stay. Pete Peters 02:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. I'll mark this as CR and we can discuss the content of TLE below. 72-139-185-19 05:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus reached 72-139-185-19 05:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: lesser evil<span style="color:Red;">'''Cr'''</span>

message: to privacy and civil liberties against the state's need for surveillance to investigate terrorist activities. 
:delete as non-verified opinion of the contributor. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the deletion, not because it is a non-verified opinion (it is a fair summary of the thrust of Ignatieff's "Lesser Evils" address, although it doesn't go far enough since the address also deals with the need to detain suspects indefinitely, to use coersive torture, to assisinate, etc.), but because it doesn't add anything to the previous sentence. —Joel Bastedo 13:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus reached Tyrenius 17:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not disputing the consensus, I'm only suggesting that if the sentence is deleted, we should move the two-sentence paragraph that's left into the previous one. -- 72-139-185-19 16:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ignatieff attempts to balance citizens' rights<span style="color:Red;">'''Cr'''</span>

message: ===Jean Augustine, the well-liked, long-serving Liberal MPCr===
of that riding, stepped aside and endorsed Ignatieff's nomination.
:delete no reference Ottawaman 19:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Augustine not only endorsed him, she officially nominated him  --Hamiltonian 19:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That means that we should keep it, no? FellowWikipedian 23:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure if she was well liked.  I know the David Peterson Government didn't like her.  Just too bad I can't verify.Pete Peters 00:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference above states Augustine was "retiring" not stepping aside. It does say she nominated him which is not the same as endorsing the nomination. What about "Jean Augustine, the former MP of that riding, nominated Ignatieff." all the rest is puffy,imo. Ottawaman 00:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Augustine reference was originally included, if I recall correctly, because it was speculated that she was pushed out to make room for Ignatieff.  The current one is really there to refute the older one.  My feeling is that the facts don't really demonstrate anything either way and she probably isn't worth the space in the article to demonstrate nothing.  Unless something new comes up, I'd just delete the reference to her entirely.  --JGGardiner 15:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to that. Ottawaman 17:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I think we can lose this sentence. It was the result of a compromise with earlier editors who wanted to imply that Augustine had been pushed aside by Liberal brass to make room for a star candidate. —Joel Bastedo 02:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus reached Tyrenius 07:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political Career 

message: of that riding, stepped aside and endorsed Ignatieff's nomination.
:delete no reference Ottawaman 19:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Augustine not only endorsed him, she officially nominated him  --Hamiltonian 19:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That means that we should keep it, no? FellowWikipedian 23:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not sure if she was well liked.  I know the David Peterson Government didn't like her.  Just too bad I can't verify.Pete Peters 00:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reference above states Augustine was "retiring" not stepping aside. It does say she nominated him which is not the same as endorsing the nomination. What about "Jean Augustine, the former MP of that riding, nominated Ignatieff." all the rest is puffy,imo. Ottawaman 00:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Augustine reference was originally included, if I recall correctly, because it was speculated that she was pushed out to make room for Ignatieff.  The current one is really there to refute the older one.  My feeling is that the facts don't really demonstrate anything either way and she probably isn't worth the space in the article to demonstrate nothing.  Unless something new comes up, I'd just delete the reference to her entirely.  --JGGardiner 15:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree to that. Ottawaman 17:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I think we can lose this sentence. It was the result of a compromise with earlier editors who wanted to imply that Augustine had been pushed aside by Liberal brass to make room for a star candidate. —Joel Bastedo 02:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus reached Tyrenius 07:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jean Augustine, the well-liked, long-serving Liberal MP<span style="color:Red;">'''Cr'''</span>