Talk:Sahaj Marg/Archive 3

message: Please let us keep the discussion to the Article and what should be in it.  For those who want to promote Sahaj Marg, proposals can be made to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission at their site or in writing.  For more in depth debate on the values of Sahaj Marg (spiritually and socially), please visit the many blogs on the WEB.
These are but a few:   
* Inner Circle of SRCM   
* The Desperate abhyasi web-site- Fr & Eng   
* Mielk - A French Analysis- Fr. & Eng   
* Le Shri Ram Chandra Mission verolee-French   
* Poxy SRCM   
Let's keep this discussion on the "encyclopedic" value of the information presented.  Sahaj Marg and its proponents make certain claims and there are others who make different claims. We can accomodate all or most if we try. 
--don 17:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keeping to Article Discussion 

message: PLEASE PRACTICE YOUR SPIRITUALITY
Please refrain from preaching to other users.  Preaching is usually done in Churches by religious elite who point at their fellow humans about failings in their own character.  That is why religions have been in disrepute and many spiritual seekers (most of us) seek a communion with the "SPIRIT".    The Churches preach poverty but are wealthy, they preach humility but write their own "autobiography" and history.  They preach tolerance but are intolerant of minorities (gays), the disenfranchised, etc... They preach equality before God but claim to be "special" before the same God and do not allow the same equality in their own structures (Women, gays, other religions, and even other races, etc..)
Preaching is of RELIGION.  SPIRITUAL people do not PREACH but practice spirituality.  They do not proselytize or advertize but let the seeker find them if they want to.  Spiritual people do not build empires and empirical structures (churches).  Spirituality is a relationship with the SPIRIT not the MATERIAL.  
So all ABHYASIS who come here to preach, or proselytize,  please go and meditate and be "SPIRITUAL"  Proselytizing and Preaching is Religious!! When someone preaches or proselytizes, it begins the pattern of everyone preaching at everyone.  To ask someone to stop preaching or proselytizing is Preaching in itself....That is a MEME!that infects us all when one begins down the slippery road of preaching at others.  Preaching is not "HUMBLE"Preaching is presuming that ONE has information that OTHERS do not have.  WE ALL KNOW!  
DO NOT PREACH LOVE, BE LOVING!
DO NOT PREACH PATIENCE, BE PATIENT!
DO NOT PREACH HUMILITY, BE HUMBLE!
DO NOT PREACH RESPECT, BE RESPECTFUL!
Some things that would show spirituality and could be thought of:
To be respectful and humble:
1. One would post at the botton of the page and leave the Instruction Messages to everyone  
   (unsigned in humility) to remain visible for future seekers...
Placing your material at the top of the page, before the "PUBLIC NOTICES" is not humble and displays "self-importance" and shows disrespect of other commentators. 
2. "Flaming" or Erasing a whole page of content to replace it by your own whole page of content is disrespectful of others, unloving, not humble, and not spiritual.
3. Using words to "insult" that one thinks are "smart" such as "boviate" does not create a "spiritual environment, a better world nor a healthy "mind set" to raise a family or participate in society with.
As you will tell by the "comment" below (two posts down)  we are now in a "TOP POST" format so the Messages to the Public will forever go down the page and be lost....In humility, I went along with it so as to allow the users to learn by themselves the reason for the more humble "Bottom Posting" that would stop the conflicts.  Self-Importance is not Spiritual and does not create a spiritual environment
Now since Preaching is to be avoided, I will not preach anymore at YOU!  But I will Do so At MYSELF 
--don 19:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  == '''PLEASE DO NOT PREACH AT OTHERS ABOUT YOUR OWN FAILINGS''' == 

message: According to Wikipedia Policy, We can all question:
NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW (NPOV).  If we who want all the information on Sahaj Marg to come out are not "neutral" then you who are "living dead", serfs, obedient to the point of "killing", not responsible for your lives, according to the Sahaj Marg material, can certainly be thought of as "not neutral" also!!  
INCLUDE ONLY VERIFIABLE INFORMATION Statements of "God realized" or that Sahaj Marg will make one "divine" and many other such statements are "NOT VERIFIABLE".  The only one who has been verified by a panel of "arms length" members is Lalaji by his Master.  So that one can be said to be "verifiable" by an "arms length" panel.  All the other statements of attainment through the Sahaj Marg meditation with a Master are "NOT VERIFIABLE"
NO ORIGINAL RESEARCHThis policy states only that published material should be from reputable Peer review journals and other such credible publishing houses.  Publishing is now done on-line and many such on-line publishers are not necessarily credible.  So if one source is questionned, then the other should also be.  One authority, ie a published book, is not any more credible that another authority ie a published blog or on-line newspaper.
AUTHORITY is what adherents to HOLY BOOKS (SOMETIMES EVEN WRITTEN BY THEMSELVES) want to claim but as we all know, the claims made in HOLY BOOKS are not necessarily the TRUTH, but can be included in an Encyclopedia as "claims" or "Quotes", and as "fair use".  Is is not because one claims to "represent God", be the "special personality" that it is necessarily the TRUTH.  And the claims of Sahaj Marg bringing one to the Divine or that the Master of Sahaj Marg is "divine" is also not necessarily the "concensual" truth and should only be added in an encyclopedia as a "claim" or a "quote". 
--don 19:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WIKIPEDIA POLICY 

message: Patience is absolutely necessary in dealing with human beings, and without love, patience is impossible. That is why the great saints of this world of ours have been so loving - because without it they could never have embarked upon the tremendously difficult, almost impossible job of bringing transformation in human beings. Love has been, and must always be, the sole instrument of human transformation. If love is there, all the other things such as patience, forbearance, self-control all become possible.
Patience shall bear the fruit in the end and therefore it is generally said that one should have patience for everything. All things happen in accordance with the law of Nature and we should wait for things to take shape.
: - from The Spider's Web, vol. 1, chapter "Hope-The Foundation of Change" p.99, 100,  by Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari ("Chariji")
===================================
Do not make  personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will rarely help you make a point; they hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping create a good encyclopedia.
The Wikipedia community encourages users to be bold in updating articles. Wikis develop faster when people fix problems, correct grammar, add facts, make sure the language is precise, and so on. We expect everyone to be bold. It's okay. It is what everyone expects. How many times have you read something and thought, "Why aren't these pages copy-edited?"  Wikipedia not only allows you to add, revise, and edit the article — it wants you to do it. It does require some amount of politeness, but it works. You'll see.
===================================
Anger is a poison for spirituality. Unless one is free from this plague, moderation can never be obtained. Its effect is that the system becomes heavy, and tension is produced, and this does not allow the free and subtle current to enter. There will be continuous pressure on thought. To free oneself from anger, one should think himself to be polite and humble. Nay, he should try to make himself such that the same colour enters each and every part of the body. Cool and calm disposition alone is required for spirituality.
: - from the book Thus Speaks Lalaji, pg 26-27, by Ram Chandraji of Fatehgarh ("Lalaji")
Hope this also is helpful and instructive.  Love to all. 
--Sakha 04:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quoting Sahaj Marg Masters and Wikipedia: On Being Patient, Polite, Humble 

message: For those who want to edit this discussion page and/or the Main Article, it is suggested that you open a User Page and write a shor bio so we may know who you are. Also by clicking on the User name of the Editor with a User Page,  you can see some information on that User.  My short bio is here [| 4d-Don]
--don 18:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  User Information 

message: FYI: Don or Christian, regarding recent exchanges please see Wikipedia dispute resolution advice.  To keep an Article Talk page clear of personal back-and-forth it is suggested as a FIRST STEP users address personal notes to each other at the user talk pages. Mine is here.
Again to clarify for Don: it seems the information about most-recent at the top (what you call top-posting) was obtained while you were also editing. Thanks, and sorry for any confusion.
--Sakha 15:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dispute Resolution 

message: Please let us keep the discussion to the Article and what should be in it.  For those who want to promote Sahaj Marg, proposals can be made to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission at their site or in writing.  For more in depth debate on the values of Sahaj Marg (spiritually and socially), please visit the many blogs on the WEB.
These are but a few:   
* Inner Circle of SRCM   
* The Desperate abhyasi web-site- Fr & Eng   
* Mielk - A French Analysis- Fr. & Eng   
* Le Shri Ram Chandra Mission verolee-French   
* Poxy SRCM   
Let's keep this discussion on the "encyclopedic" value of the information presented.  Sahaj Marg and its proponents make certain claims and there are others who make different claims. We can accomodate all or most if we try. 
--don 17:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keeping to Article Discussion 

message: Hey Clark.
I think you are just loonely!  You must have a need for human contact.  I will not reject you or ignore you (as some would).  And I will not manipulate you or try and get you to obey me either.
My information is all from Chari and the Sahaj Marg litterature (fair use), and will be "encyclopedic".  I agree that this is not a "soapbox", a "pedestal" or a PR site for Sahaj Marg or Chari also.  I do not have anyone on a pedestal that I am trying to please or obey.  I can be fair and balanced.  If I fail, then remind me.  I certainly will remind you also.  
I would not write my autobiography and quote from myself and preach humility and spirituality at the same time.  That would be too "obvious" and demand a "rebuttal".  If I see that, I will rebut also but with a "quote" if it is out there and if I find it.  Books have to be "accepted" as credible, not just "published". Publishing a book and quoting from it does not constitute "credibility".  We have to reach a concensus on the information presented.  We can use the "journalistic" style of attributing non-concensual statements by adding "claim" or "quoted as saying" etc...That is acceptable in an encyclopedia including Wikipedia.   
Keep on the Sunny Side of Life...I am....And I will be here for a long time...Matter is short lived (measured in time units), mind is infinite and spirit is eternal. (Just an opinion as a disobedient joke) I am having fun.  Chari allows that I hope!
Fly Freely with both wings....
--don 15:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted to version with NPOV and cleanup tags.  Also removed "Open Letter" as this is obviously 'soapbox' material. -- MightyWarrior 10:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality/Cleanup 

message: Um, Don ... hey bud, thanks but I didn't write the message ↓below↓ you react to ↑above↑  To make it E-Z for you, I restored the original tagline of that post and even added the link in the sub-head.  Write what you will in your blogs, but Wikipedia cannot by hijacked by any one person.  This website, for me, is a fascinating experiment for the human community.  It is a new thing, an open-ended, dynamic, and ultimately, one hopes, a fair and truthful 'encyclopedia.  So please take the trouble to check carefully sources and contexts so that what you say here or whom you address is accurate.  I say this to myself, too, Don.
Wikipedepia articles, and even these discussion pages, sre not the place for sloppiness, nor slander, nor this endless ad hominum "bait-and-debate" flame-wars many love to indulge. Normally I do not engage in such exchanges at all. But here I have made an exception, only because I feel Wikipedia is that important, both in concept and in impact. Now I'll return to Silence and let the famous Last Word belong to you, or to anyone who feels the need.  Even now I'll leave you not with my own words, Don, but those of others: Kindly heed those words below, written by them (not me) and addressed (you did get this part right) to Y - O - U ... but maybe everything here is wrong.
(Hm. My post and the link was rubbed out even before I finished the polish re-write!)
Anyway, as Babuji Maharaj used to say, "Read and enjoy. Do and become" ... I'm out! -- Sakha 18:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Who'' wrote ''what?'' Click tab [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sahaj_marg&oldid=63202782 History] 

message: Hey Don.
When editing this article, please keep in mind the following two things:
Wikipedia is NOT a publisher of original thought 
and also
Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox
However, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.
As such, there is no room for original thought or research.  Also, opinions you may have about a subject, no matter how "right" they feel are probably violations of WP:NPOV.
thanks -Seidenstud 13:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted to version with NPOV and cleanup tags.  Also removed "Open Letter" as this is obviously 'soapbox' material. -- MightyWarrior 10:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post by 202.39.223.4 

message: ... with apologies for bending Yeats, to Elodie, 4-d Don, Michael, and Christian ~
I have been reading your blogs with interest. When I discovered  a reference to a Sahaj Sandesh report I wrote and to my old blog (now closed to the public) in Elodie's, I decided to drop a note to thank you all.  I'm also supposed to be working on some books, and the frank and heartfelt discussion on these blogs finally gives me, lazy fellow that I am, impetus and inspiration.
To me, such outspoken honesty deserves sincere and serious consideration!  And it is my humble hope that 14 years of recording verbatim conversations with Chariji can address many of the concerns, hurt, indignation, and frankly misconceptions I have read.  I suppose there are now have over 200 hours taped of what now seems to be a single vast conversation, one in which we have discussed seemingly everything under the sun and maybe a few things over the sun as well!
The Masters have always insisted that abhyasis think for themselves, and that the REAL "master" is to be found within. Especially for Westerners, there is much to say about the ancient guru-disciple tradition, beyond what I could write in Yoga International or in The Sahaj Marg Companion. Even though I supposedly "knew" this stuff, I too once got frustrated with the 3-M's: the Mission and what I thought were the foibles of my fellow abhyasis -- what group of humans is without these things? -- and doubts about the Master and Method? (But more on this later, perhaps.)   For these and other, personal reasons of my own, in 1997 I left the Mission.  My idea was to try to see originally, to get some perspective.  Master kindly referred to this hiatus as a sabbatical but at the time I felt I would never return, since my temperament tends toward the solitary. This was also a problem for me during my days in a Soto Zen community, where everything is done as a group, Japanese-style.  I stayed alone to think over some of the same issues brought up in your blogs. I resigned as board member of SRCM-USA and as preceptor. I kept in touch with Chariji by email, and went to pay my respects when he visited the States in August, 2003.  I was making rather awkward small-talk about the ashram at Manappakkam when once again, he invited me to visit a new ashram at a place called Satkhol:  "You have seen the South Pole already, Clark.  Now you must see the North Pole!"  I knew what he meant.  He smiled mischievously:  "If it will help I will make it a command!"
So in November 2003, after seven years away, I was back in India, as Chariji says, back "with the lion in his own den." In Haridwar in a room crowded with about 200 abhyasis I was playing my comfortable role as journalist, trying to get my new video camera rolling, and you could see that Master was in a mood to talk.  Waving off other questions, he looked at me and said, "Well?"  As usual I had no questions prepared and not a thing in my head, so to stall for time, I asked Chariji if I could ask him anything, even questions some that were present might consider rude or impertinent.  He smiled and laughed the high giggling laugh, one of his three laughs, the kind when he is surprised and delighted: "Of course.  Please do!"  I immediately asked him about his successor, if he knew now who it was, and off we went!
I can say that our conversations and correspondence have been "no-holds-barred" -- about building fancy ashrams, about the parampara or lineage, including Lalaji's Sufi guru (I also corresponded and later met R.K. Gupta in Delhi and recorded an interview with him) but the wonders of those five weeks at Satkhol and later in Chennai were extra special.  In Haridwar, after I'd turned off the camera (I was to discover that these moments often happened when no camera or tape recorder was going) Master said something that went right to my core. the conversation got around to why people leave the Mission, and I said that I didn't know about others, but in my case, it was because of the emphasis on buildings and the politics and that I had tried to depart with respect and --
"Excuse me for soundling like a therapist, Clark," Chariji said, "but those are not the reasons you left."  And I felt a crackling in the air, and the hairs on the nape of my neck tingling.  The old man was transmitting something somehow in his words, just as I felt the very first time I met him in 1992 and asked him my first question.
He continued, and I have to tell you that these words went right into my heart: "You left because you have a poor self-image and you were afraid to let yourself be loved!" 
So with Chariji I never hesitated to ask the kinds of questions a child would ask, or even an enemy -- for enemies are considered valuable gurus to true sadhaks.  From the very beginning I always had the feeling that the conversations were meant to be shared, and lately Master has made this fact very clear: "Much of what we just talked about has never been written," he told me after another typically impromptu session last January in Rudrapur.  He looked at me and said, "So you better get busy, Clark.  You are always recording, recording, and never producing!"  Yikes. I don't know how long it will take me to finish the book(s) or video(s) about Chariji and Sahaj Marg but it better not be too long!
BTW, did yall ever hear the one about the famous asura or demon Ravanna, the sworn enemy of Lord Rama? Seems Ravanna got liberated BEFORE most of Lord Rama's devotees! Chariji told me this was because in Ravanna's passion, he was in a very intense state of constant remembrance of Lord Rama -- and the central law of raja yoga that we become that which we think in our hearts.
"I suppose, then, it's important to hate the right people?" I said.
"Yes," Master replied. "Bhakti is comparatively easy -- many can love half-heartedly. But who can hate with constancy and intensity of a Ravanna?"
For all of us, Elodie, Don, Michael, Christian, and if I may include myself, are still thinking of a Master (even if you do not consider Chariji to be one, you are nonetheless thinking of what a Master should be, yes?).  Maybe not often, but you think about this enough and with enough intensity to cause you to make blogs about the Master, the Mission, and the Method.  The hierarchy of the Masters of Sahaj Marg and all Masters teach the obvious, that we are all masters.  What is it that we can claim that belongs to us?  "No, God, you are not allowed into MY private hell, my secret shame!"  Nonsense.  Not just our virtues, our faith, our charity come from God.  Even our "vices," our suspicions, our doubts, our fears belong to God.  The difference between us and the greatest Avatars?  Babuji Maharaj put it simply: we have more coverings.
I like to remind myself daily: Why did I get born -- and why am I still here?  What's my mission?  Questions like these help me sort though what is important and what is not important.  Lots of times these questions turn upside-down my notions of what is "good" or desireable and what is "bad."
It's good we meditate on the supposition of light -- who can argue with that?  So let's lighten up.  Live a lot, love a lot -- and for God's sake (and our own, and for everybody else's sake, too) laugh a lot (and especially if we can laugh at ourselves) Simple stuff.  Pause.  Catch your breath and lower the threshold of your attention.  Feel yourself widen out like a circle on water, lay back and learn! Joy, cheerfulness, ease, an abiding sense of gratitude -- these are sure signs we're back in close contact with Reality.
And so to end this meditation, let us say together with the Looney Tunes,  Th- th- th-That's all, folks!    Meanwhile, stay tuned...  Sakha 22:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blogging Toward Bethlehem to be Born ... 

message: >Don wrote: "I will try and leave some of you material in but I will be editing some out or re-phrasing it so as to make it more accurate and not so "POV"..."
This is the Wikipedia, Mr. Don, and of course anyone is free to make any changes they feel are required. I have no objections if you wish to add a section or even delete my own if you feel it's not accurate or worthwhile.  Insert comments or citations of your own, ideally sourcing those insertions any scholar worth his salt would. Two points:
 
First point: Practioners worldwide distinguish "three M's" -- Master, Method, Mission.  Be mindful that the article here is about SAHAJ MARG (the Method), and the article properly should scope itself within the aspects of Sahaj Marg as a mediation practice.  There exists a separate article on the Mission, though the current incarnation of this article seems to drift on a bit toward the third "M," namely the Master, including the parampara (lineage) and the Master's role in both Method and Mission.  I know of no Wikipedia articles on Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari (Chariji), the current "Representative," as he is specifically known, or the other Masters.  Perhaps these will soon be written, but you might consider whether this is the proper article for a discussion of Chariji's personal views regarding homosexuality, which as shown he taken care to differentiate from Sahaj Marg, the practice.  It should be clear that I am not trying to "hide" his views, as you wrote above: "Some of us here want this site to reflect the truth about Sahaj Marg [emphasis mine].  Repeat: What is Sahaj Marg and what is NOT Sahaj Marg?  Maybe you should begin a Wikipedia article on Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari?
Second point: Wherever you decide the place is correct for your "editing" or "re-phrasing," please note that every word added in the QUESTIONS section is in the form of a direct quotation from published, copyrighted material, each one cited according to Wikipedia recommendations.  Kindly consult Wikipeida editing policy and approach modifications of direct quotations from cited publications accordingly.  Under GDFL you may "revise mercilessly," within certain guidelines, but kindly observe Wikipedia Etiquette of uti non abuti, (use not abuse) and treat with respect, as you requested of me (supra).  Quick and Easy? Click any clickable in the line below every editing box at Wikipedia: "Content must not violate any copyright and must be based on verifiable [emphasis added] sources. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL."
I hope this will be my final "last word," -- no more bait-and-debate for me, thank you.
Clark scripsit, adding that all these fun Latin pedantries are complements et compliments of a wonderfully fun and useful book.Ehrlich, Eugene (1985) Amo, Amas, Amat and More. New York: Harper & Row  The book by happy accident turned up a phrase my Master once quoted.  I just learned that he was referring to the wise words of Pliny the Elder: Ne supra crepidam sutor iudicaret ("the cobbler should not judge above the sandal") also given as "Cobbler, stick to thy last" (sutor, ne supra crepidam) which, Ehrlich explains, "advise us not to make judgments in areas in which we have no special competence," as when a cobbler criticized a painting by a master artist named Appelles, who made the famous retort.  Why did Chariji speak those very words to me, I wonder (smile) ... to be sure I'd have to cobble back through the recording of a conversation last January in Lucknow ... but no. I am busy with the Real Work of editing -- namely, of myself! -- so I'll just leave them here, and bequeath his intentions for others to ponder for themselves.  Take care. -- Sakha 05:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Ultimum vale ~ Vincit veritas''