Talk:Anne of Romania

message: *Support As nominator. Charles 00:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  WP Naming Conventions section #9 doesn't actually say anything about "Past Royal Consorts".  It talks about "Deceased Royal Consorts". Anne is not deceased.  The convention says nothing specific about a person who married a sovereign after he had ceased to rule.  In that case the "most general rule overall" applies: "use the most common form of the name used in English".  That is definitely "Queen Anne of Romania".  Whether she SHOULD be called that in English is a matter of opinion; that she is called that most frequently is a matter of fact. Noel S McFerran 03:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I pasted the reference to Section #9 here from our previous vote, below, on moving this article. Since then, on May 17th, Section #9 was unilaterally changed in the WP Naming Conventions from referring to "Past Royal Consorts" to "Deceased Royal Consorts" by Shilkanni as one of several unilateral changes that were never proposed or discussed on the talk page although, paradoxically, Shilkanni was explicit (under the "Anne of Bourbon" sub-head on that page, as well as on this one) at that time that it was not intended to suggest or accept that Anne was entitled to a page named "Queen Anne of Romania". I am changing the Naming Convention wording back. I also concur with your assessment of this move that it is apt to be taken as inflammatory -- at least if enacted without open, prior discussion with some of the Romanian and republican posters who have previously made known their objections. We're supposed to be building consensus here, yet this feels like waving a red flag in a bull ring. Lethiere 14:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We may build consensus, but the explicit fact is that the name by which Anne is known is Queen Anne of Romania. Now that title is just as "defunct" as Parma and Hohenzollern titles, but that is what is used. Indeed, the Romanian article for Anne is at Regina Ana, which literally means Queen Anne. Any objections are likely to be personal objections, not objections based on actual usage. Charles 16:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Shouldn't this be at Princess Anne of Hohenzollern?
I also have a couple of questions about the succession.  Michael's nearest male heir would seem to be the descendants of either William, the older brother of Ferdinand I, or the descendants of Charles Anthony, the younger brother of Ferdinand.  Would William's refusal to take the throne eliminate his heirs?  I know he had two sons, Frederick and Franz Joseph, and that they had children, but I don't know if those children were male or female.  Charles Anthony had a son, Albert, who also had children, gender unknown.  Zoe 02:15, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
:I agree. Gryffindor 22:05, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hohenzollern 

message: I have decided the question of location. She is the wife of a pretender, and has been - she never was queen during the reign. I am hesitant to introduce a heading to WP to endorse any monarchical pretension, thus I will not place her under Queen Anne of Romania. The article itself states that she is known as princess of Hohenzollern in the everyday life. That, imo, is closest to the WP criterion "known as". After her death, it will be a separate discusion should she revert to Anne of Bourbon-Parma or something like, or remain under her consort name. The solution now however is Anne, Princess of Hohenzollern Arrigo 21:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  placement 

message: Why is this at Princess Anne of Hohenzollern? It is a title that she never, ever uses. If she can be titled this as the wife of a prince of Hohenzollern, why can she not be titled as the wife of a king? Before anyone goes "well blah, blah, blah, Romania is a republic", remember, someone accorded her a title from a place that is now a republic in lieu of another. Charles 07:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All results for Princess Anne of Hohenzollern are from Wikipedia. Queen Anne of Romania was used in a documentary on the descendants of the Danish Royal Family in which Anne herself was interview and in which surely she was properly credited with the identity she uses. Charles 07:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just checking out some of the links for Queen Anne-Marie of Greece and this one caught my eye Guests at the funeral of Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother. Under members of foreign royal houses they list Anne as "Queen Anne of Romania". Just thought it was interesting. Prsgoddess187 13:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know who had the idea of putting this at Princess Anne of Hohenzollern. I mean, if she is such as the wife of a prince of Hohenzollern, she is also a queen as the wife of a queen. Marie-Chantal Miller married Crown Prince Paul of Creece and she is titled crown princess, as it is the female form of her husband's title. The same is true for the wives of deposed kings - they may take the feminine form of their husband's title. Charles 04:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It doesn't need to be "granted" to her. She is such as the wife of a king, the same way the wife of a man who would have historically been a prince may style herself as a princess. Also, make not of the Queen Anne-Marie of Greece article... It is established that it doesn't matter whether a country is a republic or not. Former royal families retain the use of titles and titles may come into use after the fall of a monarchy. Charles 05:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "She is such as the wife of a king". Well, Michael was no longer king when he married Anne, so she could not be queen either. Michael self-styled himself "Prince of Hohenzollern" after his abdication, implicitly giving up his title of king, according to press reports of that time: "This week, as a special train carried the newly styled "Prince of Hohenzollern" (on his way to Switzerland) across the River Enns into the U.S. zone of Austria, a member of Michael's entourage fell into the same sanguine idiom." (Time, January 12, 1948) Stefanp 08:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  He is most commonly referred to as King of Romania in English. Therefore his wife is referred to as queen. Charles 18:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Only by a handful of Romanian and foreign monarchists. Stefanp 01:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And what do all the others call him? Oh wait, hardly anyone knows who he is. Charles 21:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My answer above pertained to the topic of the debate - "Queen" Anne. Princess Anne of Hohenzollern is referred to as "Queen" Anne only by a handful of Romanian and foreign monarchists. Stefanp 01:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who refers to Her Majesty as "Princess Anne of Hohenzollern"? Charles 02:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: His Majesty King Michael's last name is "of Hohenzollern" and, therefore, his wife's as well. The King changed his last name during his exile to that "of Romania."  This new surname, however, has never been registered with the proper judicial authorities in Romania since his return home. Therefore, legally in Romania the last name of Their Royal Highnesses King Michael and Princess Anne continues to be "of Hohenzollern." Some monarchists ignore the Romanian laws and bestow upon Her Royal Highness Princess Anne titles or names not held legally. Stefanp 03:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And you take it upon yourself to bestow the defunct title of "Princess of Hohenzollern". How can she be the wife of a King of Romania and the mother of Princess of Romania but only be "of Hohenzollern"? Charles 22:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: You seem to be under the impression that WP Naming Conventions is for article names to be the same as the subject's legal name in their country of origin. That is not the case. WP Naming Conventions rule #9 directs that "Past Royal Consorts are referred to by their pre-marital name or pre-marital title, not by their consort name". If, as you insist, Anne is not a "past royal consort" of Romania, then WP Naming Conventions provides an unambiguous alternative rule that is applicable here: "Most general rule overall: use the most common form of the name used in English if none of the rules below cover a specific problem". That appears to be "Queen Anne of Romania". What evidence is there that "Princess Anne of Hohenzollern" is "more common" in English? Lethiere 22:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Anne-Marie is treated differently than Margarita because Anne-Marie wed Constantine II while he was reigning King of the Hellenes, whereas Margarita wed Simeon after the fall of the Bulgarian monarchy. Michael's style "Prince of Hohenzollern" is not ad personam, but is a title (and, in Germany, a surname) borne by tradition by dynastic agnates of that formerly sovereign family. Although I initially thought that Anne-Marie's WP listing should be the model for Anne's, I can see how it is a reasonable compromise for her to be listed as is Margarita, i.e. under her birth title. I will request that move.Lethiere 22:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was no consensus, move per NC. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 13:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oh my...

message: Anne's style was never "Anne of Bourbon, Princess of Parma", nor was she ever known as such.
#The change made in the article's reference to the consort of King Michael of Romania as "Princess of Parma" instead of "Princess of Bourbon-Parma" is inaccurate for reasons that have been documented elsewhere, but here goes:
##The evidence shows that "Prince X of Bourbon-Parma" and "Princess Y of Bourbon-Sicily", or variations thereof (always including "Bourbon" and usually "name-of-realm") is how members of these branches of the Bourbon dynasty are overwhelmingly referred to (rather than as "Prince X of Parma" or "Princess Y of the Two Sicilies") in even the most precise venues, but also in general reference, the latter being what is most relevant to WP usage. 
## As indicated on the Bourbon-Parma website and the  Bourbon-Sicily website, this is how they refer to themselves, and how they instruct others about their titulature. 
## It is how they are referred to legally:
###One of them filed a lawsuit in France: "Cour d'appel de Paris (1re Ch. sect. A) 22 novembre 1989 Présidence de Mme Ezratty Premier Président Prince Henri d'Orléans, comte de Clermont et Prince Sixte Henri de Bourbon Parme c. Carmen Rossi". (emphasis mine). 
###Similar title in the Netherlands: "Bij Koninglijk Besluit van 15 mei 1996 nr 96.000163, zijn de vier kinderen van HKH prinses Irene, te weten Carlos Javier Bernardo; Margarita Maria Betriz; Jaime Bernardo en Maria-Carolina de Bourbon de Parme ingelijfd in de Nederlandes Adel met de title van prins en prinses en het preikaat Koninklijke Hoogheid" (emphasis mine). 
###And in Luxembourg: On 28 July 1986 Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg issued a decree dropping use of the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme for himself and his descendants (but not his siblings). But on 18 December 2000, Grand Duke Henri decreed that among the titles his son and heir, Guillaume (born 11 Nov. 1981), would henceforth bear would be that of Prince de Bourbon de Parme. 
## The 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica's article on the principality of Bulgaria states: "In the spring of 1893 Prince Ferdinand married Princess Marie-Louise of Bourbon-Parma..." (emphasis mine). Note that in English, the second "de/of" in the name had already morphed into a hyphen by 1911. 
## Until it ceased publication in 1944, the Almanach de Gotha was regarded as the premier source and authority on proper use of dynastic titles, relied upon by courts and diplomats. Since it began publication in 1951 the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels is now regarded as the most authoritative genealogical work on royalty. Both publications did and do submit entries to the Head of House of each dynasty for prior review. 
###The 1878 Almanach de Gotha included its entry on the Dukes of Parma, who had been in exile since 1859, under "Bourbon". But it did not define the official titles of Parmesan dynasts, nor did it report titular suffixes for females. But I found one relevant example: in the Portugal entry the marriage was recorded of the Infanta Adelgonde in 1872 to a younger son of Duke Charles III of Parma, who is listed as Prince Henri de Bourbon, Comte de Bardi (emphasis mine). 
###But the 1912 Almanach entry does define the official title of Parmesan dynasts: "Les cadets portent les titre et nom de prince ou princesse de Bourbon de Parme, Alt. Roy." (emphasis mine). 
###The 1991 Handbuch does likewise on p.13: "Die Nachgeborenen führen den Titel und Namen Prinz bzw. Prinzessin v. Bourbon v. Parma und das Prädikat Kgl. Hoheit." (e-mphasis theirs).
## No decree has been adduced that ever legally granted the title of "Prince/ss of Parma" to cadets of the Bourbon dynasty. So far as we know, that style was borne by Farnese cadets in the 18th century as a matter of courtesy, and was then assumed by Bourbon cadets on the basis of tradition (Parma was a papal fief. But it was allocated by the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle in 1748 to Infante Felipe, youngest of the Spanish Bourbons -- without the papal investiture that would normally specify the titular details that treaties omit). Sometime after the loss of the throne of Parma in 1859, cadets of this family came to be known by a combined form of their dynastic surname and their forfeited territory. Throughout the 20th century, and seemingly earlier, "HRH Prince X de Bourbon de Parme" became prevalent enough to replace the earlier tradition of "Prince of Parma" to such an extent that members of the family now use the latter almost exclusively instead of the former.  
## The House of Bourbon reigned in Parma (with interregnums) 1748-1859. So it would be reasonable to use "Prince/ss of Parma" for members of the family born prior to 1860. But the dynasty has now been in exile from their realm longer than they held its throne, and Michael's consort Anne was born 60+ years after exile. Lethiere 22:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was no consensus, move per NC. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 13:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anne's Birth Title

message: *Support Lethiere 23:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Oh my, at least it is altogether clear that the naming convention does NOT bestow the name "Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma" to her. This is truly funny case of seeing how wrong someones could read the NC. Firstly, as married woman, her pre-marital TITLE ("princess") is certainly not used. Werte she dead, she COULD be Anne of Bourbon-Parma, but she is certainly not dead yet. Shilkanni 13:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma]] is surely wrong 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is only one source anywhere that gives her the style "Her Majesty Anne, Queen of Romania and Princess of Bourbon-Parma", and that source is a primary source. I doubt whether something that is not found in secondary sources is sufficiently relevant for inclusion, and I doubt that given the paucity of sources this exact style was actually used much. "Her Majesty Queen Anne of Romania" is more common. DrKay (talk) 08:40, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles section 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: no consensus; not moved (non-admin closure)  Bada Kaji (talk • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 15:16, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Queen Anne of Romania →  – As she is now deceased, she should be referred to by her birth name per WP:CONSORTS. Векочел (talk) 03:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Oppose.  “Queen Anne of Romania” was and is her COMMONNAME. She was referred to by this name in her lifetime, and continues to be in reliable sources since. Repudiate WP:CONSORTS as an exception to COMMONNAME.  WP:CONSORTS is a good systematic convention for consorts without coverage in secondary sources, I.e. cases not worthy of articles, just of lists or tables. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:08, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 6 August 2021 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 16:19, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Queen Anne of Romania →  – Per consensus at Talk:Marie_of_Romania#Requested_move_19_October_2022, this should be moved to Anne of Romania. It is a more concise name. Usually for deceased consorts, we avoid using the title Queen. Interstellarity (talk) 12:49, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 27 October 2022