Talk:Common Era/Archive 1

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This archive page covers 2002 and 2003.
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The argument that I've always subscribed to, and I don't think its been mentioned here, is that there is an excellent reason to use BC and AD as opposed to CE and BCE. With CE and BCE we use Jesus' birth (approximate) as a dividing line for no good reason AND with no historical context for why we do so. With BC and AD we still use the same dividing line but at least it is OBVIOUS as to why. It seems the PC posse dropped the ball on this one. As long as the dividing line is "biased" by being Christian-centric it seems appropriate that it be CLEAR that it is biased. Calling it BCE and CE just makes things more confusing. At least if its AD everyone KNOWS that the Christian mode is prominent. --Dante Alighieri 21:47 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a "PC posse", so let's please cut the use of smear terms like 'PC' out of this discussion.  The fact is that a year numbering scheme is just a year numbering scheme.  It doesn't matter what the origins of it is, as long as it serves its purpose of allowing us to refer to years in a consistent manner.  The fact is that our months go back to the Romans and refer to Roman gods and emperors and such, but no one cares anymore.  Even if we don't subscribe to the Roman religion, we use the months by those names.  Similarly, although we use the legacy year numbering scheme, there is absolutely no reason to make the "Christian mode prominent," just as we don't make the Roman religion prominent any more than we have to.  After all, a year numbering scheme can use any baseline at all, and unless we want to start renumbering by choosing a different year 1 (like the French revolutionaries tried to do), which seems like way too much trouble, then there is no reason not to inherit the legacy calendar, but there is also no reason not to make it a little less explicitly Christian in a manner that is simple and which doesn't actually affect the calendar.  That is to say, there is also no reason why can't replace AD with CE--it doesn't change the calendar, but it does use a more respectful and inclusive way of refering to it.  The modern Western calendar is common to the West, and therefore it is the "Common Era".  Simple enough.  soulpatch
I'm afraid I have to disagree, calling it CE is not a more respectful and inclusive practice. I understand that it is an ATTEMPT to be that, but it still glosses over the fact that our current system of calendrics is primarily Christian. I would argue that the limited good achieved by CE (I say limited because the use of Christ's birth is still a "problem") is outweighed by the fact that it removes the historical context from the calender. Also, while my use of the term "PC posse" was, admittedly, questionable, the argument about CE does strike me as an issue of political correctness. With words like respectful and inclusive used to describe the issue, I think it's at least arguable. --Dante Alighieri 22:05 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)
The problem is not so much with BC. "Before Christ" is descriptive, just like "Before Common Era". "Before Christ" is illogical, but I'm willing to live with that. The problem is with "Anno Domini". To an atheist, or as a matter of fact to any non-monotheist, the notion that we are living in the "year 2002 of the Lord" may simply be unacceptable, especially in an otherwise neutral, historical text. To them, it is simply not a fact, they are not living in a year governed by a supernatural power. That was after all the reason Bede chose this term: To remind everyone, lest they forget, that the church (as God's medium) was the only acceptable authority. 
Add to this the fact that the historical person Jesus was not even born in the year 0, and it makes a lot of sense to use a less loaded and more accurate term that still provides us with consistency. Your argument, Dante, that bias should be accepted to "inform people about the historical origins" makes little sense, because AD says nothing about Jesus. Furthermore, we do not use historical terms if they are no longer appropriate -- we do no longer refer to masturbation as "self-abuse", for example. The world today is more secular than the world of the Dark Ages, and a transition to a more secular naming convention makes perfect sense (we would already be using a new calendar if that was practical). CE is a good, neutral alternative without any disadvantages. We should use it where we need to qualify numbers to make clear that they are year numbers. I would have preferred it if the standard would be BC/CE instead of the clumsy BCE, but if we use CE, we should use BCE in the same texts where appropriate. --Eloquence
Well, if some atheists or non-monotheists find the term "unacceptable" I would argue that they have too little to worry about in life. I'm an agnostic. I also happen to have a special distate for organized religion in general and Christianity and the Catholic Church in particular, so I'm certainly not advocating the usage of BC/AD for Bede's reason. I still maintain that as long as we are using an inherently biased system of calendrics the LEAST we can do is make the bias OBVIOUS and AD (even if the word Christ isn't in there) does a MUCH better job then CE. Clearly you and soulpatch disagree with me on this point. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. As far as USING CE and BCE in the wiki, I have no real issue with that. Like you said, if we use CE we should use BCE. --Dante Alighieri 22:28 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)
: I know where you're coming from. The problem is that by keeping the "Anno Domini" usage, you don't just make a bias obvious, you say something in a biased way.
:: Which is surely the case every time one says "Tuesday" or "goodbye". I'm an atheist, and prefer BC/AD to BCE/CE quite strongly, largely because "BCE" and "CE" are too similar, and there's too much potential for misprints. I'd be happier with abbreviations more easily differentiated at a glance. I don't find the Common Era setup in any way offensive, and certainly won't be going round editing articles that use it - but "AD" is not a term I find remotely inappropriate for me as an atheist to use. 81.156.167.143 13:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)