Talk:Passive smoking/Archive 2

message: Many are complaining that those who influence tobacco policy are receiving big donations from the makers of smoking cessation products.  I saw a Canadian newspaper article examining the potential conflict of interest, and I think it deserves a mention (under criticism).  Thoughts?71.72.217.102 04:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it would be a shame for a corporation to subvert public policy making to promote their product, despite its dangers... that would be reprehensible. Particularly if, say, there were reams of documentation of said corporations' nefarious machinations. Glad we're on the same page - though some might prefer the "anti-lung cancer movement" rather than the "anti-tobacco movement". Semantics. As to the contention that drug companies are behind "tobacco policy", I'd like to see this source. Regardless, though, it doesn't belong here. Maybe you could argue for a mention in the tobacco article or in an article on tobacco regulation, but I don't see how it applies to secondhand smoke in particular. After all, there's still no pharmaceutical that protects you from that. MastCell Talk 05:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the input.  That being said, I don't see a clear connection between the article and passive smoking.  The link is here.  Of course there is no pill that could protect us from second hand smoke.  We all know that there is "no safe level of exposure".  I am, though, glad that there are safe levels of lead, benzene, arsenic, asbestos, toulene and the like in our drinking water. Otherwise, we would all be dehydrated.  Must be better to ingest it than to inhale it.  I find that interesting...71.72.217.102 07:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting perhaps - but not altogether surprising. If you ingest something it goes through the stomach & digestive processes, and then has to find a way of getting absorbed into the bloodstream. If you inhale a gas, it enters the lungs which are designed to allow ready transfer of gaseous substances across the alveolar barrier into the lungs (per Fick's law) - so to use a slightly silly example, it's pretty clear why smoking cigarettes is more dangerous than eating them. Although they should form part of a balanced diet... Nmg20 08:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're not seriously comparing cigarettes to water, right? You agree that water is essential for life, and therefore the unavoidable consumption of trace amounts of metals or pollutants in drinking water is quite different from exposure to carcinogens from cigarettes? MastCell Talk 17:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Of course I'm not comparing the two; that would be ridiculous.  Just pointing out the double standard.  Without question, ETS is a source of indoor air pollution.  On the other hand, making statements ("no safe level") that directly contradict the principles of toxicology is disingenuous to say the least.71.72.217.102 19:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No, I'm not.  Perhaps I misunderstood you.  What I'm saying is there are, no doubt, dangers in certain levels of exposure to almost anything (especially toxic chemicals, carcinogens and yes, even ETS).  I specifically refer to the "no safe level" claim and the double standard that exists (not only in my imagination).  To say that "X" is so dangerous that you cannot be exposed to a level small enough to not hurt you is not just absurd; it's pure fantasy.71.72.217.102 23:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to be rude, User:71.72.217.102, but if you actually know people who believe that there are no dangers in exposure to carcinogens or toxic chemicals, could you let me know, as I have a bridge I urgently need to sell them? Thanks. Nmg20 00:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Call me Chido.  I've had this account for a few weeks, but rarely do I log in (I'll try to log in regularly from now on).  There is nothing rude about the question.  I won't take offense since I didn't say there are no dangers.  I'll see if I can hunt someone down who thinks that, but I doubt I will.  What I did say was (in a rare moment of agreement with the EPA) that there are "levels of contaminant(s)...below which there are no known or expected risks to health."Chido6d 02:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

text: True...but the purpose of the talk page is to discuss the article itself and edits to it, not to debate the subject (though it slips into that territory often).  I didn't use the pharmaceutical source because it was pointed out that it doesn't relate directly to ETS (only to the anti-tobacco movement).  Any changes to the article need a reliable source (mostly .org, .gov or .edu) and should be published material.  There is some highly charged debate about the article, though, and unfortunately good suggestions or contributions get attacked anyway.  You'll find some good reading material on the case page related to the POV dispute. Chido6d 17:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The anti-tobacco movement and pharmaceutical companies

message: At the risk of repeating arguments which have been covered already at length on this talk page, I am restating the case for the current formulation in the summary section of the article.
The causal link between exposure to tobacco smoke and diseases, disability and death has been the subject of intensive and extensive research, and long and in-depth discussions by the scientific community for at least two decades. It appears that today, the worldwide scientific and public health communities agree overwhelmingly that passive smoking is indeed the cause of disease, disability and death. In reporting this fact, we, Wikipedia editors, must adopt a neutral point of view, and the best way at our disposal to guarantee such a NPOV approach is by citing verifiable and authoritative sources.
This is what is being done in the summary section, which bases its finely crafted wording on four references. These four references are currently the four most authoritative sources of information on passive smoking. Each one arrives at the conclusion that there is a causal relation between exposure to passive smoking and diseases, leading either to death or disability.
*WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control - This is the first international treaty on public health, adopted in May 2003 by 192 countries and signed by 168. Its text has been the subject of intense negotiations, which have lasted several years and has involved the contributions of some of the best public health experts of the world. Its Article 8.1 states "Parties recognize that scientific evidence has unequivocally established that exposure to tobacco causes death, disease and disability." (emphasis added) This formulation has been elaborated with great care, not by "anti-tobacco zealots", but by ministers of health and their representatives of virtually all countries of the world. It would be hard to find a more authoritative and consensual formulation.
*U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. "The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: A Report of the Surgeon General", 2006 - One of the major conclusions of the Surgeon General Report is: "Secondhand smoke exposure causes disease and premature death in children and adults who do not smoke." (emphasis added)
*California Environmental Protection Agency: Air Resources Board, "Proposed Identification of Environmental Tobacco Smoke as a Toxic Air Contaminant" (June 24, 2005) - The CalEPA reports states its finding in its executive summary as follows "ETS exposure is causally associated with a number of health effects, including effects on infants and children.". It provides a list of 26 "developmental, respiratory, carcinogenic and cardiovascular effects for which there is sufficient evidence of a causal relationship." (emphasis added)
*WHO International Agency for Research on Cancer "Tobacco Smoke and Involuntary Smoking" IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of Carcinogenic Risks to Humans, Vol. 83, 2002 - The evaluation of the Monograph is: "There is sufficient evidence that involuntary smoking (exposure to secondhand or 'environmental' tobacco smoke) causes lung cancer in humans." (emphasis added) This assessment is made by a group comprising 25 of the world's top experts in cancer research, epidemiology and tobacco control.
The importance and significance of these references is emphasized in a recent communication by the World Health Organization ():
There is no doubt: breathing second-hand tobacco smoke (SHS) is very dangerous to your health. It causes cancer, as well as many serious respiratory and cardiovascular diseases in children and adults, often leading to death. There is no safe level of human exposure to second-hand tobacco smoke.
These are the indisputable conclusions reached by international and national health authorities, backed up by extensive rigorously reviewed and published research results, over many years. Three recent major publications remind us of these facts:
*The 2004 IARC Monograph 83: Tobacco Smoke and Involuntary Smoking
*The 2005 California Environmental Protection Agency (CalEPA) Environmental Health Hazard Assessment of Environmental Tobacco Smoke
*The 2006 U.S. Surgeon General's Report on The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke
In the same communication (), the World Health summarizes the result of current research by stating the following facts:
Fact 1
SHS contains thousands of identified chemicals, at least 250 of which are known to be carcinogenic or otherwise toxic. Among those chemicals and toxins are the deadly, odourless, colourless gas carbon monoxide (CO), increased levels of acetaldehyde, acrolein, formaldehyde and many other substances. When inhaled, these poisons are concentrated and quickly spread throughout the body, leading to a range of serious diseases.
Fact 2
People are most exposed to tobacco smoke in the following enclosed spaces:
*WORK PLACES
*PUBLIC PLACES
*HOMES
Fact 3
Second-hand tobacco smoke (SHS) has officially been classified as carcinogenic – cancer causing – in humans. It also causes severe acute and chronic heart disease. Other adult conditions linked to SHS are bronchitis, pneumonia, asthma, and in children: lower respiratory infections, asthma, middle ear infection, sudden infant death syndrome and low birthweight for babies of women exposed to SHS during pregnancy.
Judge Gladys Kessler, in her Final Opinion in the case United States of America vs. Philip Morris U.S.A. Inc. produced a very detailed study on how the scientific community has reached a consensus concerning the health effects of exposure to secondhand smoke. (pages 11215-1230). Her conclusion is as follows:
Using the five criteria adopted by the Surgeon General as a framework for evaluating causality [...], scientists in the public health community view the accumulation of data to determine if a causal relationship exists. In this case, the overwhelming accumulation of data demonstrates that ETS causes disease. [...] Passive exposure also causes a reduction in the rate of lung function growth during childhood, and is linked to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS). [...] In adults, exposure to secondhand smoke causes lung cancer. Passive exposure causes two to three percent of all lung cancer cases in the United States. [...] Exposure to secondhand smoke can also cause coronary heart disease in adults." (page 1230-31 - emphasis added)
Judge Kessler summarizes the state of scientific knowledge about the health effects of passive smoking as follows:
Since the 1986 Surgeon General's Report, every major scientific review and assessment of the science on passive smoking and its health effects has independently and consistently concluded that passive smoking causes disease and other adverse health effects in adults and children. (page 1229 - emphasis added)
If other Wikipedia editors want to change the formulation presently used in the summary section ("Current scientific evidence shows that exposure to secondhand tobacco smoke causes death, disease and disability"), this is always possible, but they would have to back up their proposal with references at least as authoritative and verifiable as the references indicated above.
--Dessources 01:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the way to settle the argument of bias opinion vs facts is for authoritative references to be found - EPA, WHO, etc who have the names of five people who have died as a result of the ETS. This should be easy since the estimates of death are anywhere from 3000 to 60000 (no one seems to know for sure) per year. Could the proponents of "death by a whiff of smoke" find those references and settle this?  Otherwise it is just statistical tricks from the shouting agendas. Whoscience 10:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to ignore the obviousness of this oft-repeated fallacy and point out that, according to the talk page guidelines, this article talk page is not to be used as a forum for general discussion, argumentation, debate, or rhetoric. It's intended to discuss specific, concrete improvements to the article, based on the principles of verifiability, no original research, undue weight, and neutral point of view. MastCell Talk 05:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Current scientific evidence shows that exposure to secondhand tobacco smoke causes death, disease and disability" 

message: This edit consists of original research and is not suitable for Wikipedia. Please see the guidelines on original research and synthesis of published material. Briefly, Wikipedia is not a publisher of original analyses or syntheses of published data. Cobbling together statistics from disparate sources and synthesizing them to further a claim is impermissible under the original research policy. Further, it bothers me that we're again seeing a robust secondary source (in this case, the "Lifting the Smoke Screen" report) used to try and make a point which is opposite of the conclusion drawn by the authors. Please review the relevant policies above; Wikipedia is not the appropriate venue for that sort of thing. MastCell Talk 18:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To follow up the repeated posting of this link, please see the earlier discussion of this site in the archive. It is manifestly unsuitable as a link on Wikipedia per the policies MastCell has already posted a number of times, and indeed as a reference in any encyclopaedia worth its salt.Nmg20 08:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: Some additional sources that might be useful to expand the "Tobacco Industry Response" section, or the "Criticism of scientific consensus" section:
*: Constructing "Sound Science" and "Good Epidemiology": Tobacco, Lawyers, and Public Relations Firms. Am J Public Health, November 2001. "The European "sound science" plans included a version of "good epidemiological practices" that would make it impossible to conclude that secondhand smoke-and thus other environmental toxins-caused diseases. Public health professionals need to be aware that the "sound science" movement is not an indigenous effort from within the profession to improve the quality of scientific discourse, but reflects sophisticated public relations campaigns controlled by industry executives and lawyers whose aim is to manipulate the standards of scientific proof to serve the corporate interests of their clients."
*: Turning Science Into Junk: The Tobacco Industry and Passive Smoking. Am J Public Health, November 2001.
*: Tobacco industry efforts subverting International Agency for Research on Cancer's second-hand smoke study. Lancet, April 2000. "The documents and interviews suggest that the tobacco industry continues to conduct a sophisticated campaign against conclusions that second-hand smoke causes lung cancer and other diseases, subverting normal scientific processes."
*: Junking Science to Promote Tobacco. Am J Public Health, November 2001. "The authors recommend that policymakers be more vigilant and that they demand transparency about affiliations and linkages between allegedly independent scientists and tobacco companies. They also urge policymakers to be prepared for new and continuing challenges posed by the tobacco industry, because, despite the industry's claims, there is little evidence of fundamental change in its objectives."
Some of these may already be cited, but if not, I'll work them in. MastCell Talk 16:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional sources 

message: First off, the reason we're hearing what entities such as the WHO, CDC, Surgeon General say about the data is that Wikipedia is meant to be based on secondary sources. Primary sources (e.g. the original studies themselves) are to be used with caution and are not to be joined together to advance a novel position. This is covered in detail in the following policies: no original research, verifiability, and reliable sources. It's also been covered ad nauseum higher up on this talk page.
Regarding the Lancet article, here are a few quotes:
* On March 8, 1998, the London Sunday Telegraph reported that WHO was withholding a study that not only failed to show that passive smoking caused lung cancer but also might even demonstrate a protective effect.14 British American Tobacco (BAT), which had held private media briefings to ensure “balanced” coverage of the forthcoming study, was suspected to have fuelled the story.
* To understand the industry's strategy towards the IARC study, we examined previously confidential tobacco industry documents that reveal how Philip Morris (PM) spearheaded an extensive inter-industry effort to stop, affect the wording of, delay, and counteract the IARC study.
* The industry sought to manage and monitor the public's perception of the IARC study's results.
* PM [Philip Morris] realised that the tobacco industry had little credibility in Europe, and it turned to the media to promote its messages.
* BAT [British American Tobacco] instigated the March, 1998, press articles about the IARC study... Winokur reported that the “publicity generated by BAT” started with the March, 1998, Sunday Telegraph story and continued with promotions in the USA, Australia, Brazil, and other markets... Winokur noted that the timing of the Sunday Telegraph story seems to have been designed to precede the release of the UK's Scientific Committee on Tobacco and Health report on passive smoking three days later.
* The massive effort launched across the tobacco industry against one scientific study is remarkable. Whereas over ten years (1988–98) the IARC study is estimated to have cost $1·5–3·0 million, PM alone budgeted at least $2 million for “IARC” plans for just one year (1994) and proposed $4 million for studies to help discredit IARC's work. The elaborate plans were developed by PM's top management, implemented by an elite task force, and designed to coordinate the international tobacco industry. The complex plan relied on third-party vehicles that did not reveal the extent of the industry's efforts to shape the scientific, communications, and government relations issues of secondhand smoke on a worldwide basis.
I could go on, but you get the picture. I think that my summary, if anything, understates the Lancet article's conclusions about the role of the tobacco industry in fomenting this controversy. MastCell Talk 17:15, 13
July 2007 (UTC)
:Even if you are right about the opinion of the Lancet, and I think you're reaching (to put it kindly), it is improper to occupy more than half of the section with it.  There is far too much detail, and the volume of the propaganda of Stanton Glantz is certainly not justified by its value.  The substance of the controversy itself had little (if anything) to do with the tobacco industry.  The WHO waited at least several months to publish this study; they tried to bury it because the data and conclusions did not support their position.  It's really that simple.  Tobacco companies were spending resources long before the study was complete, but the study actually turned out much different than they (and the WHO) had anticipated.Chido6d 04:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, all of these points are inaccurate or strawmen. It's not just the Lancet; we've now added several other medical journal articles (from American Journal of Public Health) reaching the same conclusions. Also the WHO's own investigation, which revealed the tobacco industry's efforts. Yes, the controversy had a lot to do with the tobacco industry - not my opinion, but a verifiable fact found in the several reliable sources we've cited. The WHO didn't "wait" to publish the study; it's called peer review. It takes a while, and the Lancet article describes the tobacco industry's efforts to "scoop" the publication of the article to create the appearance that the WHO was "hiding" it when in fact this was not the case. It's all in the cited sources. MastCell Talk 04:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes from the Lancet article 

message: The WHO inquiry report was conducted by an international team of senior experts, under the leadership of prof. Thomas Zeltner, the Swiss equivalent of the US Surgeon General, with David Kessler, the former US FDA Commissioner and dean at the University of California, San Francisco Medical School, Anke Martiny, Executive Director of Transparency International, Germany and Dr Fazel Randera, Inspector General of Intelligence, South Africa. The inquiry report was released publicly immediately after it had been submitted to the Director-General of WHO. The tobacco industry did not challenge the findings revealed in the report, although they were overpowering for them. The findings are all backed with solid factual evidence, much of it available in writing from previously secret tobacco industry documents, leaving no doubt about the nature of the actions of the tobacco industry that the report describes (Chapter IX of the report lists 172 references).
Going back to the current Passive Smoking article, we note that the section entitled World Health Organization Controversy includes a paragraph starting with the following statement: "It was later discovered that the controversy over the WHO's alleged suppression of data had been entirely engineered by Philip Morris, British American Tobacco, and other tobacco companies, in an effort to discredit findings which would harm their business interests." This statement is accurate and fully backed by the two references provided as sources (the Lancet article and the WHO inquiry report). Replacing it with "It was alleged in some reports that..." waters down the point in an unacceptable way; this may even be perceived as an attempt to whitewash the action of the tobacco industry. We should keep in mind that the tobacco industry has been found guilty of racketeering by the US justice of this precise kind.
Indeed, the Final Opinion of Judge Gladys Kessler, in the case USA vs Philip Morris et al., dedicates a long section to the WHO/IARC study, showing how the tobacco industry tried to undermine and neutralize its results. Here is a brief extract from this section:
It is interesting that some of the currently most vocal editors of the Passive Smoking article still persist (just as British American Tobacco does) in demanding that this arbitrary and unsupported GEP rule be applied to the studies on ETS, insisting forcefully that studies exhibiting risk ratios below 2 be considered as non significant.
--Dessources 20:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note on the WHO inquiry report 

message: Does anyone other than Yilloslime think that the words "Judge Gladys Kessler" (accurate and in context) are "bloating detail"? Chido6d 01:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's strictly necessary (as it's noted in the footnote text and in the reference, of course) but of all the bloat in the article I don't think it's a major offender. I don't feel strongly either way. If you feel strongly that it should be there, then I suppose that's fine with me. MastCell Talk 04:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it adds detail, but I disagree with deleting it on the grounds of "bloating".  I think it's of fair importance to identify the Justice in such a high profile case. Chido6d 11:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I just don't see the point of having it in there, especially when anyone interested in more detail can click on the reference. Yes, there is a lot of bloat in addition to these few words, and I am indeed tempted to go through and cut out massive swathes of this article. However, since we're in mediation, my view has been to err on the side of the status quo: leave in bloating details that have been in the article for awhile, but resist the addition of additional bloat. I simply don't see why the name of the judge is important enough to mention in body of this already-too-long article, especially if when 1) it's already clear from the text that this was a not a jury trial, and 2) the judge's name is there in the citation for anyone who cares. That's the main thing: hardly anyone reading this article is going to care what judge it was or even recognize her name--so why have it in the article? Those few people who are intersted, and for whom this additional information would mean something, those folks can click the footnote and find out who the judge was in a matter of seconds. Yilloslime 17:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What would you like to cut out, and what is your motivation?  Are you not even more concerned since a whole new section was just added?  Or are you OK with that because you like what the new section says? Chido6d 23:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My motivation is several-fold: Aligning the amount of space given to various viewpoints with their relative acceptance per WP:WEIGHT, making the article more concise and readable, etc... As I previously indicated, "I think we should trim the Osteen decision section as MastCell had, and also trim the Erstrom & Kabat section and the 'Tobacco industry response' section, and I'd argue for simply summarizing the various positions of the tobacco companies and providing direct links to the relevant parts of their websites, rather than taking up all this space with these big quotes." I also wouldn't mind seeing the Critique of Confidence Intervals' section trimmed way down, or even removed entirely, and I'm not sure we need the 'Presentation of dissent in legal cases' section either. Perhaps the 'Position of major tobacco companies' could even be turned into it's own article--this is a very neutral section and I don't think it adds much to the article, so I don't think that making it it's own section would run into POV-fork concerns. I do think that the 'Current state of controversy' section is good and should stay, and I'd even argue that the article would benefit from the addition of a description of legal history associatated with passive smoking.Yilloslime 23:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

text: If you're not "categorically opposed to including it", then leave it in.  For example, I'm not thrilled with the new section.  I think it's bloating, overkill, reaching and really just being used to make a point.  But it's accurate (pending further review), and I wouldn't edit it without just cause.  Try applying the same standards. Chido6d 04:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And it sounds as if from all the trimming you'd do, all we'd have left is a treatise from the former U.S. Surgeon General. Chido6d 04:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "If you're not "categorically opposed to including it", then leave it in," writes Chido. Au contraire—the burden of proof for demonstrating why new material should be added to an article lies with the editor who wants to include the material. You have not yet attempted to justify why this tidbit deserves to be added to this article. Maybe there's very good reason that we would all agree with, but so far, no one has put one forth.Yilloslime 20:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm willing to let the moderator decide if you are just being a gadfly. Chido6d 04:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Chido6d, You seem to be misinterpreting what moderation will do, and acting in ways that make it unlikely moderation will succeed. The moderator won't decide anything. Unless you are willing to work with other editors in improving the article, moderation is a waste of time. It might be better for all concerned if we go straight to arbitration, where you will get a decision, though not one you will like.JQ 04:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps you're right.  When one nitpicks at letters and lines, and leaves volumes intact...it might be time for arbitration. Chido6d 04:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bloating Detail 

message: Most of the time, you can't prove that this person or that person died from passive smoke effects.  You can say that five people living with tobacco smoke died when only three people died without it, but you can't really say which two of the first five were the tobacco cases and which three were the bad luck cases.
However, there are a few cases where's it's pretty much cut-and-dried.  Abid Hanson -- who died because a flight attendant on Olympic Airways Flight 417 repeatedly demanded that he remain seated next to a bunch of smokers instead of moving to a less smoky part of the plane -- is one such case.  If we can come up with a few more perfectly clear (and public) cases, do you think this information would be a useful addition to this article?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno... I suppose it's interesting, but the number of people whose death is so immediately and directly attributable to passive smoking is probably pretty small. It sounds like an extreme case. Also, not to sound cynical, but there will likely be an attempt to spin it into something like, "Only one death has ever been attributed to passive smoking..." MastCell Talk 03:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: People who have died from passive smoke

message: There is an attempt to suppress the inclusion of a link from the Scientific Integrity Institute which appears completely baseless. Not only this; there is also a collaboration among editors to undermine the WP:3RR rule, and possibly an effort to draw me into the same violation.
One cannot make an edit or a revert per another editor.  This means that you are acting as another's agent, by his/her authorization or direction, or on his/her behalf.
There is no reason to suppress the link from the Scientific Integrity Institute.  A baseless, phony excuse was given implying duplication; at the same time, the link to the former Surgeon General's report is included while it is cited in the article at least 15 times.
Without question, I will continue to be accused of failing to cite specific examples of the violation of WP:NPOV.
But false accusations are completely irrelevant, as long as they are false.
Chido6d (talk) 03:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are being shunned until you are able to discuss your concerns without the type of language and accusations employed above. MastCell Talk 05:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When I noted that my was "per MastCell", it meant simply that he had already explained why the link you added was inappropriate, not that I was acting as his agent or any of the other accusatory nonsense you suggest above. The 3RR is designed to stop a single editor making changes to an article which fly in the face of consensus: as such, I'd say it was working really pretty well in this instance. Nmg20 (talk) 08:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV tag

message: I have integrated these changes , in order to make the article less biased, please make any objections here.
*Current scientific evidence shows that exposure to secondhand tobacco is linked with an increase in smoking related illness, such as cancer
replaces:
*Current scientific evidence shows that exposure to secondhand tobacco smoke causes death, disease, and disability
Replacing the subject with a less controversial issue this would be liek saying that
* "current scientific evidence shows that flying in a modern air line causes injury and premature death".
This would be TRUE obviously, yet the causative nature due to accidents is of a subjective statistical importance, which is what the debate is all about. This is hypish and missleading, and not NPOV wikipedia level wording.
Moreover, This kind of wording is scientifically false, since the researches are of a nature of statistical correlation. Not a causative nature. --Procrastinating@talk2me 22:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you should read the article more closely (I note that your edit summaries say you jumped in after "a few minutes" and your claim that the sentence in question is not supported in the text - try using "Find" on your browser). As regards causative mechanisms, "Like mainstream smoke, Sidestream smoke contains more than 4000 chemicals, including 69 known carcinogens such as formaldehyde, lead, arsenic, benzene, and radioactive polonium 210" and "Tobacco smoke exposure has immediate and substantial effects on blood and blood vessels in a way that increases the risk of a heart attack, particularly in people already at risk" as regards the conclusions of authoritative sources on causality. "The governments of 151 nations have signed and ratified the World Health Organization Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, which states that "Parties recognize that scientific evidence has unequivocally established that exposure to tobacco smoke causes death, disease and disability"JQ 23:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  scientifically correct phrasing and Npov wording 

message: I think the pair of articles in Skin & Allergy News (see Is the public health message on secondhand smoke based on science? Two brief analyses of the 2006 U.S. Surgeon General's report on ETS) is not eligible for inclusion in the Other Links section. First, the title of the debate is already misleading and gives the impression that there still is a true debate on whether the health message on secondhand smoke is based on science, while this has been established for a long time and is only debated by the denialists. The pair of articles and the way they are presented are, in themselves, highly POV. (I would neverthless agree that it be considered for inclusion as a reference, but in a context where its true significance would be explained.) Furthermore, the pair of articles belongs to the category of "balanced debates" of the type "5-minutes-to-Hitler-5-minutes-to-the Jews", i.e. it attempts to create a sense of balance where this is no longer appropriate. Such an approach of pretending a balanced stand in an area where the issues are already well settled, is in itself a way of re-invigorating the denialists' views. Finally, the author of the first article, Dr. Arnett, presents himself as an adjunct scholar of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, with no relationship with the tobacco industry. However, he fails to mention that this institute is on the record of having very close ties with the tobacco industry and has been the recipient of very significant sums of money from tobacco corporations, notably RJR and Philip Morris, as a brief perusal of the industry documents reveals (for a small sample, see , , , etc. (this is the result of a five-minute search).
--Dessources (talk) 18:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are definitely some major red flags here. Describing oneself as an adjunct scholar at the CEI and in the same breath denying any relationship with the tobacco industry makes me question the accuracy and utility of the newspaper's disclosure policy. Also, this paper bills itself as "The Leading Independent Newspaper for Medical, Surgical, and Aesthetic Dermatology". An odd place, one might think, to find the science of passive smoking being debated. This goes back to Dessources' point above about this no longer being a real scientific debate (of which there would presumably be evidence in more topical (NPI) sources), but more a manufactured "point-counterpoint" sort of thing in a dermatology newsletter. MastCell Talk 19:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

text: That said, I agree somewhat with Yilloslime's comments in his edit summary - these articles are somewhat representative of arguments employed by both "sides", so perhaps there is a place for them somewhere in the article. MastCell Talk 19:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really care enough to protest. I think it is informative because Arnett's piece is a great example of the kind of argument put forth by the passsive smoking denialists, and it is then taken apart in the rebuttal by Tutuer. It would be great Tutuer had also discussed CEI's connection to the industry, but even lacking that I don't see including the exchange as misleading. If it were the only external link, or if the article didn't have a section on the industry generated "controversy" I could see how including it could be misleading or introduce POV, but in the full context of the article that we do have, I'm not concerned about readers thinking that the exchange is typical or that controversy is real. Mastcell's points about the reliability of the source are troubling, however.Yilloslime (t) 19:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether Chido's link and the Legacy Docs dug up by Desources end up here is one thing, but they are certainly relevant to the CEI article, and I have taken a stab at incorporating them there.Yilloslime (t) 01:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done! Dessources (talk) 00:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pair of articles in Skin & Allergy News