Talk:Mapuche

message: Can somebody replace the map that has been deleted? Jclerman 14:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: map

message: I don't think the main picture is appropiate. It is a good picture, and the traditional clothing is a plus, but the girl is probably a mestiza. At the risk of seeming racist, as this is the article for the mapuche people, i think the picture should be more representative of their race. I've been looking for a new one, but most i've found are copyrighted. Any help/opinions would be much appretiated. Gerardo199 04:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  picture 

message: I have never heard that before, in fact the mapudungun us cosidered a language isolate. Dentren | Talk 20:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That idea is unverifiable, as we don't know what language the Diaguitas spoke. One thing is certain: they didn't call themselves "diaguitas", and didn't spoke "Kakán". Ricardo Latcham introduces the term "chilean diaguitas" and has become widspread to describe the people(s) that once  inhabited the semiarid north. As he supposed that these chilean diaguitas were related to the argentinean diaguitas, suypposed that they spoke the same language, called "kakan". Nowadays, nobody supports this view, but the name has remained, as there's nothing better.DaniloVilicic 01:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Who said that Mapuche are related with Diaguitas?

message: For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all  infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 20:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "related groups" info removed from infobox 

message: They quickly adopted metal-working and horseback-riding from the Europeans, along with the cultivation of wheat and sheep.
This passage is not archaeologically accurate. There is the widespread idea that metal working is not present in the area before the spanish conquest, but there is a somehow longstanding tradition of copper-working in the zone according to archaeological data. Specially for ornamental artifacts, and this is the origin of the later silver working (the ear rings mantain their shape but become to be worked on silver instead of copper)- DaniloVilicic  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DaniloVilicic (talk • contribs) 01:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a lot of new evidence that suggest that the mapuches had a far more "advanced" culture than thought, for example the discovery of some proto pyramids near Purén. But this article needs sources for such statements like proto-pyramids and early copper working. Dentren | Talk 08:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have sources for copper working, I will add them soon, but the problem I have is that I need to refer to archaeological cultures that are not named "mapuche" that it's an ethnological term. These AC do not correspond to the modern mapuche territory or culture necesarily, but they are indeed their ancestors. There are very different archaeological sequences for Central Chile and for Southern Chile, even if they spoke the same language when the spaniards arrived. Some have proposed that mapudungun was a kind of pidgin used for all these people from Aconcagua river to Chiloé (about 1.000 km). Copper working is attested for "El Vergel cultural complex" (1.000 to 1.500 A.D. aproximately).DaniloVilicic 06:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thom Dillehay has suggested that "cuels" (mound) were some kind of protopyramids, but this interpretation remains controversial. The kuel is certainly a kind of funerary mound, with territorial and symbolic importance for these groups.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DaniloVilicic (talk • contribs) 07:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Is kwel a Mapuche word?. Lin linao 16:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it is, at least it appears in Thom Dillehay's articles as a mapuche word. I'm not sure if it is [ku.el] or [kwel]. You can see this: http://www.ifeanet.org/biblioteca/fiche.php?codigo=REV00006027 if available at your library.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by DaniloVilicic (talk • contribs) 19:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metal working 

message: Í have readed a history book (Barridos por el viento) about Patagonia were it it said that there was an extensive horse traffic from the Pampas were horses were stolen during raids and then later moved to the lands naer Nuehuel Huapi lake  were they went throug a mountain pass (possibly Mamuil Malal Pass) into Chile. Who knows about this? I would be interesting to have it included in the article. 
People may think that the Mapuches were "sleeping" or doing nothing between the last big upprising in 1650 (Arauco War) and the occupation of the Araucanía. They were actualy expanding their influnece and culture to the Pampas and dealing with horse trade! Dentren | Talk 10:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Horse trade across the Andes

message: Hey,
I personally find it very hard that
the Mapuche were the only indigenous group(outside of isolated groups in Brazilian rainforest etc.) to not have been dominated by colonial empires...and then the Chileans had to go and invade..?why? Chile was created in the proud years of Simon Bolivar's indepence struggle, the Mapuche epitomised it...
hmm, I guess history is history, what happened happened...I hope though that the Mapuche can restore at least some of that strongly indepedent heritage....
DomDomsta333 (talk) 12:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are surely other groups indigenous group(outside of isolated groups in Brazilian rainforest etc.) in south america that were not dominated by colonial empires, but the prolongued Arauco War makes the Mapuches probably the most expensive "indian war" in the Americas. See es:Real Situado. Dentren | Talk 15:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  a personal opinion... 

message: The caption to the Huaman Poma de Ayala illustration refers to fighting betwen "incas" and mapuches. But mapuche is the name of a nation, while inca is the name of a ruler extended to a ruling caste. It can be taken for certain that there were no "inca" men fighting the mapuche men, but troops at the service of that empire. Suggestion: change "inca" for something like "troops of the Inca empire". --Lupo Manaro 12:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Inca" were "citizens of Inca Empire" too. Lin linao (talk) 22:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Just like Romans iof the Roman Empire were not only those from the city of Rome. Dentren | Talk 11:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Incas" and mapuches

message: To me its obvious that the Mapuches are to the left, and the Incas to the right, i will change it now.
You can check the Spanish version if you want, they have the same picture, and "izquierda" means "right".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calarca (talk • contribs) 22:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I bet US$1.000.000 that izquierza is left. Dentren | Talk 13:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I bet US$2,000,000 for "izquierda"="left" :). However, you're right: Incas are in right side of the picture. Lin linao (talk) 16:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mapuches VS Incas, wrong side 

message: Far out, highly speculative theories and references in Greek to someone no one ever heard of don't belong.  Maybe....maybe, if the source can be found in English translation, a separate section for wild theories might be added, but this is an encyclopedia, so the main body of the text ought to reflect reasonable, substantiated, and more or less authoritative sources. Tmangray (talk) 20:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you add at this article the speech of Lonko Kilapan, where he claims that the Araucanian people have greek origin and explains the reasons?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.53.233 (talk) 00:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both the Greeks and Croats are sizable ethnic communities in Chile to have arrived as fishermen and shepherds, mainly in the 19th and 20th centuries by invitation of the Chilean government settlement program. To theorize Greeks as well the Croatians were cofounders of the Mapuche people before or during the Spanish colonial period is only a mythological fable. It will be impossible for pre-modern Greek navigators to sail out the Mediterannean Sea to the Atlantic all the way down to the tip of South America, unless the navigational skills associated with Greeks have been successful to led them to establish a new distant colony a long time ago.  + 71.102.12.55 (talk) 07:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Greeks and other Wild Theories

message: The striking similarities between the Mapuche and Polynesians of the South Pacific are somewhat uncanny, but evident in the nature of the peoples' physiology, culture, religion and myths of a land across the ocean. For example, the Rapa Nui of Easter Island which is also a Chilean territory 2000 miles off the mainland of South America, described a land Hiva or "Land of the Birds/Gulls" in the Rapa Nui language, was located to the east and by scientific analysis, the Rapa Nui were able to use wooden canoes to travel by usage of ocean currents all the way to South America. 
Back in the 1940's, Norwegian anthropologist Thor Heyerdahl speculated that the Polynesians were ethnolinguistic cousins of the Inca of Peru and racially American Indian. He even tested a grass reed boat Kon-tiki that sailed across the South Pacific all the way to Tahiti 3400 miles away. Despite the adventurous success of the Kon-tiki, mainstream anthropology debunked Heyderahl's theory of a Polynesian-Amerindian race. Also the routes of ocean currents in the South Pacific was inable to take pre-modern South American Indians' grass reed boats to any Polynesian islands.
And the Mapuche have some possible connection with the American Aborigine race that lived from 50000-15000 BCE, the Mapuche in physiology would resemble, but do not have close genetic relations with the Patagonian giants of the nearby regions of Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego. The Yaghan peoples, also known as the Ona and Selknam were forced into extinction in the late 19th/early 20th century. For the Patagonians to migrated all the way west from Australia and New Guinea through the South Pacific, not the scientifically accepted path north through Siberia and North America or Panama, the Mapuche cannot possibly be an Australoid-Polynesian race. + 71.102.12.55 (talk) 04:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Polynesian origin?

message: Some good-looking info at es:Mapuches#El_conflicto_forestal_y_el_papel_del_Estado_de_Chile. ¦ Reisio (talk) 02:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent land dispute translation? 

message: Hi. Formerly, Pehuenche people weren't Mapuche. They were Araucanizated during 17th-18th Centuries. 'Old Pehuenches' were related to [Old] Puelches and another mountain people; they didn't speak Mapudungun and were fully nomads. A reference-in Spanish- may founded here, you can read the paragraph that start with La distancia etnológica.... In this article there is a sentence about aculturation by Mapuches. Bye. Lin linao (talk) 07:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Today I have learned something new. Good links.. There is a lot of information about the battles of the Arauco War but nothing about the Pehuenches and their trade and influence on the Argentine pampa. Maybe you would like to collaborate to expand the Pehuenche  and Araucanization articles.Dentren | Talk 15:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry, I don't dare (?) because I have little confidence about my English. However, I can add information and references in :es:Pehuenche for further translation. Bye. Lin linao (talk) 07:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Araucanization of Pehuenche people 

message: Best wishes. Congratulatioons for your good work. Just some comments. First, the pronunction of the word Mapuche or Mapuce (according to Raguileo alphabet now in use) is close to Mah-poo-tcheh in English. Second, rag-ko is translated as "clayed water" or "water with mud" from mapudungu(n) (I don't know what "clayey water" means). Third, if you're using the Spanish words for "lonko" and "toqui", then you should write "lonco" and add that it comes from the mapudungu(n) term "longko". Fourth, the fourth paragraph of this article is confusing and not well written, I think. Note that "Patagons" were called by this name by Antonio Pigafetta and not by Magellan, and that today they're not called Tehuelches anymore, but Aonikenk or Günuna-küna (formerly "southern" and "northern" Tehuelches).
The theories of the "Penutian link" of mapudungu(n) are really old and not considered as likely anymore. Right now, most linguists consider it an isolated language. Even if I see as a good thing to include all the opinions, all of them should be included, and also the year they were formulated (I think the "Penutian" one is really old).
More soon...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.43.208.101 (talk) 18:39, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some comments 01 

message: More comments. For current Mapuche situation you can check Indymedia, specially the Spanish version, in order to get fresh news. There are a real lot.
And a disturbing point is to see a new as the included in the "Myth and religion" section, concerning human sacrifice. I've worked for years with Mapuche people, I've read a lot of books and documents and never found any mention to such sacrifices. You should include this kind of things as a new (a link, maybe?) if you want, and include in this section more cultural traits, as the huge Mapuche mythology or the Ngillatun-Machitun-Kamarikun ceremonies. Yopu can aslo review, in other sections, the Mapuche musical instruments and rhythms, their current literature and poetry in mapudungu(n) (Elicura Chihuailaf, for example), the different alphabets used by Mapudungu(n), the influence of mapudungu(n) in the Argentiean and Chilean Spanish language, their traditional sports (like pali or chueca), their folkdances (like choike-purrun) and songs, and so on... Any person with no idea about the Mapuche people can have, after reading the above mentioned section, the old belief that Mapuche are "savages".
You can also add links to the fabulous pdf-documents about Mapuche art, crafts and oral tradition of the digital library of the Chilean Museum of Precolumbian Art. They're really great. And you can find a lot of modern images of Mapuche people free in the web, in order to provide a "modern" look to this page. If help is needed, I'd be more than glad...
My best wishes. More soon...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.43.208.101 (talk) 18:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some comments 02 

message: About the occupation of the "Araucanian" lands by modern states in South America, the Argentinean "War of the Desert" has not been included. No mention either to the horse-trade across the Andean range, and the "malones" in the Argentinean pampa, and all the literature that these "malones" ("indian attacks") originated, as famous "Martin Fierro" poem. And the map included as a graphic for current Mapuche territories is totally inaccurate: in Argentina, they occupy a larger (really larger) extension of land.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.43.208.101 (talk) 19:02, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some comments 03 

message: I contribute in this article as such: " Lonko Kilapán (b.1903), a traditional Mapuche historian who has been taught the secret history of his tribe by 17 Fichas (tribal sacred story-tellers), suggests that a group of Greeks from Sparta at 600 B.C., via Indonesia and Polynesia,  reached Araucanía, then probably a cradle for Mapuches, settled there and got mixed with local Amerindians constituting the ancestors of his population. Kilapán, who is characterized as a sacred narrator of his tribe (epeutuve-επεοτύπης) presented this theory, as a holy apocryphal tradition of his people, in his book “the Greek Origin of the Araucans” (Lonko Kilapán, "El origin Griego de los Araucanos", Editorial Universitaria, Santiago, Chile, 1974), in 1974. His theory (linguistic, sociological and archaeological) appears impressive but does not follow explicit scientific methods and lacks any scientific support! His book was published in greek (Lonko Kilapán, "Η Ελληνική Καταγωγή των Αραουκάνων της Χιλής", μετάφραση Γιάννης Λαθύρης, Ηλιοδρόμιο, Αθήνα, 1997) and constituted a success amongst Greek grecophiles, nationalists and mysticists." But Heironymous Rowe deleted it pointing out: "fringe BS that doesnt belong in this article-take it to the talk page to discuss with other editors before attempting to re insert this nonsense". In my contribution I did point out that this theory lacks any scientific support and I didn't put it in the chapter "origin" byt in a different chapter below the chapter "Mapuches in popular culture". But the fact is that this theory appears in many blogs and seminars in Greece as a real fact! (Look on google search for "Αραουκανοί" or "Lonko Kilapan"). It's something like a popular civil legend in Greece. It's a matter of objectivity to write about this theory even if it is in fact ridiculous... Georalex1 (talk) 01:32, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Find reliable citations to actual historians and scholars addressing this subject, somehow proving its notability for inclusion in this article. Blogs do not count. Heiro 01:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You'd think you could find some criticisms of this hypothesis somewhere - Georalex1, have you looked? If it's put forward in seminars some academic must have written debunking it. Dougweller (talk) 06:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We need someone who speaks Greek or Spanish. Dougweller (talk) 09:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I speak Spanish. Btw the Spanish language artiucle which is much better and more comprehensive than this one doesn't mention the theory either. ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Try a Google search in Google books, see what you can find. Dougweller (talk) 12:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the OP, a search for a Greek meme might be more successful, if there is anything notable or verifiable enough for inclusion here at all. Heiro 13:02, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Probably. I used google.es in IE and Bing, which translated my search. Books didn't help. But a web search at Google.es on "El origen Griego de los Araucanos" does. (Note the 'e' in origen, I'll correct Goralex's spelling above, hope that's ok. Found this, which just says Kilapan's credentials aren't what he says they are  - but I've just used Bing to translate a Google.es search and that's about all I found. Dougweller (talk) 13:05, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems the idea goes back to Alonso de Ercilla's poem La Araucana where he compares the Mapuche emphasis on warfare with the spartans. This article in English explores the topic.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The etimologia site says that Lonko Kapilán was not in fact the author of the book but that the Euro-Chilean author César Navarrete used the name as a pseudonym and poublished the theory which was seized upon by pan-hellenist fanatics and published in a greek journal called davlos (the torch). ·Maunus·ƛ· 13:26, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The Spanish article :es:Origen de los Mapuches mentions the theory as a curiosity.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:29, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

text: But you do have to use citations to reliable sources, not quote urban legends or use blogs. I did the google search you mentioned above using google translate, and a lot of blogs popped up. Can you point to specific sites such as a news story? or an article in a respected magazine or other such source? Anyone can write a blog and write whatever they feel like, we need more reliable sources than that. Heiro 21:47, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Mapuche and the Spartans

message: Is this article salvageable or can it be merged here? ...or Machi (shaman)? I am not an expert in this area.--NortyNort  (Holla) 11:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Machi decolonization]] 

message: I know its peculiar to mention him but according to previous Wikipedia pages on him, maradona's father is of native ancestry, could it be Mapuche?
:Seems fully possible. But to add that info in wikipedia you have make sure its relevant on the article you add it to and that it is properly sourced. Chiton (talk) 22:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Diego Maradona 

message: As the article is now it has a coverage that includes both the Mapuchu-Mapuche of Araucanía and the wider "Mapuche family" that does also includes Huilliches, Picunches and other peoples. I think that is confusing for the reader, by analogy it would be like having a Latvian people article covering also the concept of Baltic peoples. Any thoughs? Chiton (talk) 22:02, 28 July 2012(UTC)
:Separating these peoples in a separate articles is already done. There are articles for these subgroups of the Mapuche that can be expanded if one wishes to do so.Asiaticus (talk) 08:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, I have removed the split tag. I do however thing the article ought to be clearer whether it is dealing with the wide Mapuche or the narrow Mapuche Op47 (talk) 20:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Split part of content to [[Araucanian peoples]]

message: That statue is widely known in Chile to not be of a Mapuche given that it is using feathers in its headgear
which the Mapuche have never used.  It is probably an Apache or something like that.
The statue of Caupolican should be removed from the article...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.162.197.107 (talk) 18:06, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statue of Caupolican 

message: In the last sentence of the Arauco War section, I changed "for conquest," which didn't make sense, to "to conquer." Is that what you meant? If not, please correct me. Thanks.  KC 17:17, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor edit 

message: What does this term mean? Since there is no Wiki article to link to, this article must define the term.  KC 18:12, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tissue volumes 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I don't see why - when you tolerate on this talk page long paragraphs of complete nonsense about Greeks getting to Chile - my perfectly reasonable surmise about Mapuche contact with Polynesians (based on language, kumara/chicken swaps, funerary monuments, known use of jewellery, known legends of 'long-ears') should be thrown out. My point is that there is SOME evidence for everything I said, whereas there is zero evidence for Spartans getting to Chile. I rest my case.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:3597:3400:39BC:D519:370D:BD93 (talk) 08:12, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  unfair censorship 

message: An edit filter forced me to remove an external link in this edit. It wasn't publicly accessible (that's why it tripped the filter - it contains the word "login"), but if someone wants to rescue it, perhaps this history link will help them do so. Hairy Dude (talk) 14:11, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-public external link removed - please rescue if possible 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: The following was added in good faith by @AnaHdgs: 
Originally from the forests of the southern Andes, Mapuche people lived in the woods as "horticulturalists”. Mapuche populations shifted towards Argentina and Chile in the sixteenth century 
A few days later, also in good faith, @Sietecolores added several cite/dubious tags. 
I am removing the info added by AnaHdgs for a few reasons:
* The lede is often the only part of an article that people read, and having either questionable info or cite tags is less than ideal. 
* Anything in the lede must be supported by information (including citations) in the body. AnaHdgs, please find a place for the info in the body, get consensus that it is correct, and only then summarise in the lede.  
* The MOS suggests not having a lot of cites in the lede, and it certainly isn't the best place for tags disputing info. Sietcolores, It is better to either be bold and delete it or move it down and have the discussion on the talk pages. 
Thank you both for helping build Wikipedia! Cheers, Last1in (talk) 00:55, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: To classify the Mapuche as "horticulturalist" seem a gross oversimplification. As explained in this article and others Pre-Hispanic Mapuches had a varied economy where small-scale farming (mostly potatoes) was combined with fishing, raining of chilihueques and hunting. The phrase "Mapuche populations shifted towards Argentina and Chile in the sixteenth century" makes no sense. The political entities claiming Mapuche lands as their own have shifted, by Mapuches have always been known to concentrate in south-central and central Chile and nearby areas of Argentina. Mapuche migrations are poorly attested. Sietecolores (talk) 21:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Origins" in the Lede 

message: The spread of Mapuche individuals and culture eastward is a complex topic that is often misunderstood and used politically by some people. This topic needs to be addressed with quality sources. To my knowledge there is an early presence east of the Andes (Neuquén Province) and then, in colonial times, an intensification of the presence and a spread further east.  Sietecolores (talk) 12:59, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Spread eastward

message: Argentina is Mapuche but they do not identify as Mapuche, due to the racism that exists in that country. In Chile there is a trend of indigenism, where people indicate that they feel “identified” as Mapuche for fashion and state benefits, but they really are not, finally there are more real Mapuches in Argentina but racism does not allow them to accept it. 2600:1700:3D65:2810:D5B3:C2BC:838F:9B5E (talk) 22:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mapuches in Chile and Argentina