Talk:Herem (censure)

message: "Zinoviev, Sochineniia, 16:224, quoted in Bezbozhnik [The godless], no. 20 (12 September 1938)." Is there any copy of this that can be linked? A website with the transcript? I find a feedback loop of secondary sources when searching for the original article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:73C0:600:AD69:8538:85F4:3ADA:32A1 (talk) 21:53, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

message: The first two sections of this article need to be revised. The discussion of modern applicability of the cherem is especially inaccurate and unhelpful. HKT 19:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First two sections 

message: Does anyone know the procedure for the Cherem excommunication? I heard it had something to do with black candles (possibly and likely an urban legend) and according to the Exilarch#Income and privileges article, the blowing of the shofar had a part in it. Anyone have any insight? Valley2city 03:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you read that in the books about Harry Potter? It's definitely not true. Nothing with black candles and nothing with a shofar. --Chussid 12:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Procedure 

message: Wouldn't the equivalent of Cherem be closer to someone receiving anathema rather than excommunication in the Catholic Church?  Catholics are still urged to fellowship with someone who is excommunicated in hopes of bringing them to repentance, but anathema is a more extreme censure. --User:MsgrCloche 17:49 17 January 2007 (UTC)
If your definition is correct, then yes. Cherem also requires the person in cherem to exhibit signs of mourning, and is largely dependant on the individual in cherem respecting the authority of the court and the institution of cherem. Also, it only lasts 30 days, which the article currently leaves out.Cherem against abstracts or inanimate things goes on forever. 79.177.239.120 (talk) 10:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  vs. Anathema 

message: The article says that cherem is no longer in use, but that is not true - it's still in use in cases where a man refuses to grant his wife a divorce. I've also seen it in use in the case of man who got into relationship with a married woman. These days when the courts no longer have secular power, cherem is the only major tool left to the courts to punish someone, or attempt to change their behavior. I think it's quite inaccurate to claim it's not in use anymore. Ariel. 03:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still in use 

message: My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that cherem is intended primarily as a tool of coercion, to get someone to follow the instruction of the courts. It is not intended primarily as a punishment. As such, it is imposed (or not imposed) based more on what the person is doing (or not doing) than what he has done. Could someone clarify this point? 60.242.35.115 (talk) 00:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Punishment or tool of coercion? 

message: It is true, there are major similarities between Cherem and Excommunications, but there are also important differences, and this should likely be pointed out. Many Jews believe that Catholic Church Excommunication is a form of shunning, and that it can be applied to anyone at anytime, when in fact it is anything but. Usually, excommunications are only reserved for major heretics, schismatics, apostates and defilers of sacraments, it is not something you can punish someone with arbitrarily, for example in the case of purely secular crimes such as racism and drug/sex abuse. ADM (talk) 01:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Cherem vs. Excommunication

message: Item 22 "engaging in business intercourse with one's divorced wife".  If the meaning of "business intercourse" is "a business", then that's what should be written.  If what was meant instead was "sexual intercourse", then that should be stated.  This needs to be clarified!  --Contrablue (talk) 20:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: List of 24 Offenses in Talmud -- Incoherent

message: "The cherem has also been invoked in recent years against Neturei Karta, the extreme anti-zionist etc."
Not only did the author of this seem to get bored of writing the sentence, a google search reveals that there was merely a proposal for such measures in the form of a speech by Tel Aviv's Chief Rabbi. So for now I'll delete this, but perhaps the invokation of the measures warrants a (better written) mention in the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.183.250 (talk) 16:14, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-englightenment examples 

message: Several sources that discuss holy war, including War in the Hebrew Bible: a study in the ethics of violence, by Susan Niditch (pp 28ff) use the word herem to mean "war of extermination".   I'm wondering if it would be helpful to readers to add a new section in this article explaining that meaning, which appears to have fairly significant usage. --Noleander (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: See also Anathema#Interpretation. --Noleander (talk) 20:16, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind, I found mention of it in this article.  I added a sub-section header so other readers can find the info more readily. --Noleander (talk) 21:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Herem also used to mean holy war? 

message: * Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)
* Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew)
Note that the third article Chromim turns up not a single Google books hit for "Chromim" - so what is the correct English term? 
 In ictu oculi (talk) 02:56, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with the existence of all three articles - I don't see how they are POV forks. I think Herem needs to stay where it is, as that's the term used in (English) literature on the subject - see the references at Talk:Cherem#Merge Herem into this article. I'm agnostic about Cherem and Chromim, except that they are evidently discussing different things. There are some hatnotes to be fixed up, I believe. StAnselm (talk) 06:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The three articles should be merged since it is the same word. Based on comment by the creator, "Chromim"  is probably the plural form of "Cherem" although I think it is spelled incorrectly. Not clear why there are articles for alternate spellings and the plural form, "Cherem", "Herem" and "Chromim". Marokwitz (talk) 06:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes all three are the same word, and yes the third is just the plural form, misspelled. All 3 take the Exodus verses about "devoting" (destroying) an item to God as the starting point. A single article with 3 sections would make more sense. What that item should be called in English is a second question. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:58, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, a single merged article with the name "Herem" containing information on all the different interpretations would be fine. "Cherem" should be a redirect to "Herem". Only if the article becomes too long, we should consider splitting to sub-articles, using the brackets naming style.   Marokwitz (talk) 10:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: There are three articles now, all on same Hebrew word

message: Then the better proposal would be a merger of Herem (academic title with limited use in Old Testament commentaries) and Hromim (a made up word which only exists on Google Books as the instrumental case of the Croatian adjective hromi, "lame"), and the third word Cherem "excommunication." The three applications of the same principle "devotion" are evidently not different things. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Oppose for the same reasons as the last three times. StAnselm (talk) 08:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

text: Strong Oppose.  Please stop wasting everyone's time.  Also "hromim" is not at all a made up word.  It's the plural of herem.  But since it isn't being used any more, your raising it is yet another time waster in your edit war on articles about rabbinic concepts. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 23:49, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge proposal

message: Note: This same text has been posted on Talk:Herem (war or property) and Talk:Herem (priestly gift). See also reply at first of those In ictu oculi (talk) 03:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It might have been better if these moves had been proposed using WP:RM. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:50, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  And yet, that wasn't necessary.  It was discussed here on the talk page, and a consensus was reached.  Stop wikilawyering.  - Lisa (talk - contribs) 23:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  There was discussion at Talk:Herem (priestly gift), and WT:JUDAISM also mentioned the subject. There was no reason to seek input from outside WikiProject Judaism, and Lisa was justified and correct in making the moves she did. In addition, there is a saying that says: do not wave your fist after the fight. Debresser (talk) 15:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moves 

message: The Vilna Gaon issued the first ban against Hasidism in 1772 NOT 1777 (since this is a significant turning point in Jewish history, this error is egregious.  Please correct) (Prof. 
Sharon Flatto, Brooklyn College)
:Do you have a reference for that? Editor2020 (talk) 22:15, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: an edit for paragraph 2

message: The article opens by calling herem the highest form of "ecclesiastical censure". I would suggest "halachic censure" or "halachic and communal censure". Ecclesiastical by definition means having to do with the Christian church. It is evidently used as a general term here but I don't think it can ever lose that subtext. The same phrase "ecclesiastical censure" appears in the section on herem in the article on Shunning. I find it to be a muddled and jarring use of the term ecclesiastical but am reluctant to make the edits myself for various reasons. Ps8v9 (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I for one agree with you, and I'd say go ahead and make the changes you're suggesting. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 17:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ecclesiastical is the wrong term