Talk:The Tale of Genji

message: Free is the right word in this case because a "free translation" is one that puts the emphasis on readability and understanding rather than literalness. gK ¿? 14:24, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Free translation

message: I've added the Novels WikiProject template to this talk page in an attempt to draw interest in expanding this article. At the same time, I don't believe that the format proposed by that WikiProject quite fits the Tale of Genji, because the work doesn't revolve around a simple A->B->C plot progression.
I'm slowly working on a chapter summary page, currently in my sandbox.
While an infobox as proposed by the Novels WP would be useful, I don't want to be the one to add it and thereby disrupt the current look of the page through my inexperience with wiki software. --Tachikoma 15:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Genji and Novels WikiProject

message: Please don't be upset that I've tagged a lot of things in the article as needing a citation - I was really impressed by the article, but if we want to get it to Good Article, (which is the least it deserves) then we do need inline citations. I'm not a Genji buff, so I'll have to rely on all of youse to help find appropriate citations. Thanks :) - Malkinann 11:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a good thought but you may have gone overboard on the citation placeholders. I don't think inline citations on that magnitude are necessary for a good article. There are several different types of referencing that Wikipedia accepts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources I do agree that the references section is lacking. -Mizi 19:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe so, but each of those points was something that I read, and wanted to know more about. They're all things that a person could be curious about. Even if we just cited the major translations, then that'd be something. - Malkinann 07:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with Mizi. More references are certainly needed for the article, but the current number of citation placeholders is quite excessive. The point can be made without going that far - the article looks kind of ridiculous at the moment, and it doesn't deserve that. That's not a productive strategy for improving the article. Gorilla Jones 17:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: {{Talkfact}}

message: As for the structure, is there any good reason not to mention the two series theory proposed by 武田宗俊 (Munetoshi Takeda?), based on statistical analysis? His theory is very known in Japan and widely accepted by the academics in this field, so I suppose you have a good reference to in English. --Aphaia 10:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Structure

message: The two paragraphs about Hikaru Genji’s exploits with women, describing how he “raped” them and discussing how women in medieval Japan were helpless against male dominance prevents several problems, aside from the absence of anything to balance its judgmental and POV nature of applying 19–20th-century moral ideas to 11th century Japan (and attitude usually construed as cultural imperialism):
#First, it is not even clear from the original Japanese text that Genji entered the woman’s room without her permission.
#Further, since the norm in that period of Japan’s history among the aristocracy (at least) was for relationships to be initiated and carried on in this way, and relationships were often not monogamous, there is little reason assume that this was a rape.
#Genji’s “power” that motivated the women to acquiesce was not necessarily physical strength—given the context of (again) 11th century Japanese aristocracy, it was probably something else, like physical attractiveness. The whole point of the Hikaru Genji’s name was that he was supposed to have been extremely attractive and desirable, not only for his physical characteristics but also for his empathy towards women.
#Mary Arnold’s statement about women in medieval Japan in problematic for three major reasons:
#*The Tale of Genji takes place in the 11th century or earlier; that is not “medieval Japan”—she’s off by two or three hundred years at the least.
#*It is debatable whether Genji’s actions typify the impunity of men committing rape at that time, because it is unlikely that his actions were contemporarily perceived of as rape, even if they were by today’s definition.
#*In fact, women’s social position in the Heian period and even thereafter, into Japan’s medieval period, was not as weak as Arnold seems to think. Though it differed by region and class, in general women owned, inherited, and could pass on property separately from their husbands, for example, and they could initiate divorce and take their property with them when they left. The shift towards the downtrodden image people entertain today did not start until much later in Japanese history, and it started with the warrior class and in some aspects did not necessarily extend to the merchant and farming classes until as recently as the 19th century when warrior-class values were imposed directly on the whole population, in the process of post-Edo nation-building, as the “essence” of Japaneseness.
These weaknesses need to be balanced or removed. They could even be seen as off-topic for the article, given that they seem more designed to present the Japanese in an unfavorable light with respect to women rather than tell us anything about The Tale of Genji. Even assuming that these statements do tell us something about the article’s subject, they should be presented in a separate section—one on the significance and implications of the work—rather than in a section describing or summarizing the narrative. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 07:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, at least for Utsusemi and Murasaki-no-ue, he raped them and so described. According to the text, both women felt uncomfortable, insulted and thought their will was ignored. But I don't think it cannot be summarized or generalized as "women's weakness". In the cultural context, Utsusemi is not a noble and Genji had no reason to treat her as the equal to her. On the contrary, if I recall correctly, he said to Utsusemi "I am the person any of whose desires are permissible". The similar can be said to Murasaki-no-ue. While she is in a loyal lineage, her social status is very weak and not different from the other lower women with whom Genji had love affairs. It should be summarized "lower-ranked people's weakness" rather than "women's weakness", I suppose. --Aphaia 10:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tag section for POV because of strongly judgmental statements

message: This:
One of the frequent arguments made against the multiple authorship idea is that the Genji is a work of such genius that someone of equal or greater genius taking over after Murasaki is implausible.
Should probably be changed, for obvious reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.254.171.154 (talk) 16:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It needs a source; I don't think the content should be completely expunged from the article because it *is* an argument made in favor of single authorship. But without a source it looks like POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.254.69.123 (talk) 15:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Authorship

message: Why does this article have no mention to medieval readership in Japan? (In japan alone, since there was no translation into any language). Sources say it had a enthusiastic readership both in girls and high literate people (I forgot the name, but a some critic - Fujiwara Shunzei? - said any waka creator should read Genji or like that). And we must not miss mention and revival by Motoori Norinaga in the Edo period. On the other hand, in counterpart of those enthusiasm, there was also accusation againt its "immorality" and "eroticism". It was even said Murasaki shikibu had fallen into the Hell due to her writing. I think it should be mention as a part of Genji reception, but the current structure seems to lack interest to this aspect. Is there any consensus about this topic? --Aphaia (talk) 09:09, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Medieval readership

message: I am more than a little confused about what happened to my entry on "Utsusemi." I have started working on Genji characters some time ago and everything seemed to go just fine, when, without any warning, the link to my Utsusemi entry was redirected to the main Tale of Genji page. I put quite some work in that entry and, to be honest, it frustrates me. The content of that entry was completely verifiable, it had several references (I was planning on adding more), so I do not see what objections could have been brought against it. If anyone has an explanation, I would truly appreciate some feedback. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oticu (talk • contribs) 
:First of all, please sign your comments.
:Secondly, I suggest checking the article history for Utsusemi. There you may find that User:CultureDrone changed it to a redirect for his specified reason. If you disagree, then please take it up with him. No Wikipedia work is ever really gone so please relax. You may click on any of this past versions in the history and revert to that previous version upon coming to a consensus about the topic. Regards, Bendono (talk) 05:17, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Utsusemi

message: I am currently working on the list of Genji characters and would very much benefit from some suggestions/ advice. The problem I am having is with their sheer number. Since they are so many and since each needs a comprehensive entry, the character list will end up being quite overwhelming. I have tried making short descriptions and creating new pages from major characters, but that proved very cumbersome. For one thing, I didn’t have enough material to justify the creation of new wiki entries. Therefore, I got back to the main character list and continued from there, hoping I’ll figure out something by the time I reach chapter 54 (I’m entering characters chronologically using Tyler's edition). How would a separate page entitled Genji Character List sound like (with a link from the main Tale of Genji page)? I’d be happy to hear other suggestions (and no, cutting down the number of characters is not a solution, since I’ve noticed that most students tend to remember key names, but have troubles once they get to minor figures, so there's where they need most help).
--Oticu (talk) 06:16, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It could be split into a List of characters from The Tale of Genji? --Malkinann (talk) 20:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Genji character list

message: *If one compares male attitudes towards women in The Tale of Genji and The Heptameron, one will see little difference regarding their views of female inferiority and subjectivity to males. The primary difference exists in how the females themselves comprehend their roles in society. Women in tenth-century Japan are taught to be completely docile and submissive to the male figures in their lives. The only resistance they exert is of the passive kind, i.e. with admonitions, feigning illness, and concealing themselves as much as possible from men. In contrast, the women of sixteenth-century France are much more assertive in defending themselves from physical abuses and ill treatment from men. 
I don't get much of this from the WP article. Didn't Genji go around doing whatever he wanted to women, and isn't that the most striking characteristic of the book? Why are we spending so much time saying it's a classic and doesn't have a plot? --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Genji didn't just "go around doing whatever he wanted to women" as there were consequences to his actions and expectations in regards to his behavior. And it's not necessarily one of the most striking charactertics of the book - the actual stories of his affairs don't take up even half of the text. Also, this article isn't about women's place in society at that time. You could add a section on historical context, but that seems like more of an undertaking than what would be appropriate for an article about Genji. If you do, however, create a section on the role of women, I strongly recommend citing scholarly journals strictly dealing with The Tale of Genji and its time (not 16th century France) instead of using the source you cited here. Rabbit36 (talk) 03:54, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I came to this article as a reader of Genji looking for (references to scholarly) discussion of the role of women in the book. For instance, do scholars feel that the book is "accurate" in this regard (for nobles at that time)? I myself was stricken by how Genji (and implicitly the author) values women for (among other things) their intellectual and artistic accomplishments, but still does not feel he has to keep his word to them ("I promise I'll behave myself", followed by what may be rape, in chapter 6, for instance). So I'd welcome a section like this. Homunq (talk) 17:36, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Role of women

message: Made an image... AnonMoos (talk) 07:52, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Genji chapter symbols

message: How were the earliest copies reproduced? The article has an image of a manuscript , but were all copies originally made by scribes or did the Japanese have some form or early printing available? When were the first printed copies made in Japan? Lumos3 (talk) 12:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The earliest versions were made by calligraphers employed by the royal court. Tons of research needed here and I'm not quite sure when the first printed copies were made or even whether they still exist. There are very early scrolls - emakimono that had painted illustrations matched to the text. The image here is from the 13th century. I believe these were made of silk - but not entirely certain. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reproduction , some questions 

message: Does anyone know why the references for this article mention "Shikibu, Murasaki" and Waley as the authors? Let alone that the article probably should use one of the more up-to-date/scholarly/accurate translations of the Tale, we should be citing one or the other as the author. (There is a case to be made for the translator-as-author if the article is referring specifically to an aspect of or note in his translation, but if so "Lady Murasaki" should probably be in the book title, not listed as a "co-author".)
And in either case, Shikibu is not her last name. We should change this.
elvenscout742 (talk) 05:59, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Murasaki Shikibu's name in the reference list 

message: I am referring to the first two sentences in that section regarding Jorge Luis Borges. Is the rest of the sentence and the next one after the colon supposed to be a quote? Because as I was reading it, I was confused as it wasn't formatted as a quote since it says "I dare to recommend this book to those who read me" and since it is not properly formatted as a quote, it is hard to tell where the quote is supposed to end. Additionally, there is no citation provided for me to check whether it is a quote or not so I can format it correctly. I am tempted to remove it until a inline citation can be provided as well as an indication of how far the quote is to extend. SassyLilNugget (talk) 12:00, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beginning Sentences in "Reception and legacy" 

message: Since Genji monogatari was written mainly in kana, surely the title was in kana as well. Should the original title really be displayed in kanji? Japanese Wikipedia does have the entry under modern Japanese spelling, i.e. in kanji 『源氏物語』but also adds（げんじものがたり）i.e. ge-n-ji-mo-no-go-ta-ri in hiragana. At least we should also add the hiragana. --Stighammar (talk) 08:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kanji/Chinese characters in original title. Or hiragana.  

message: It is sui generis. It is fiction, but it is not a novel. Historical fiction. A blend of genres. But the whole thing depends on how one defines a 'novel', and by any historical standards, it is a terrible anachronism (and an oversimplification) to use the term 'novel' to categorize or describe this work.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.115.149.185 (talk) 01:10, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's clearly cited that this has been considered a novel by many sources. It is a simplification to use the term 'novel' for anything, but that's a good thing; simplification into large groups is how humans understand the world. As Ancient Greek novel makes it clear, the word "novel" is frequently extended to works far older than The Tale of Genji. The first "x" can always be argued to be an anachronism, but there must be a first "x".--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:26, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  It is a ridiculous anachronism to call this a "novel" 

message: I read a great novel a few years ago, can't remember by whom. Called the Tale of Murasaki, and set around the life of the author of Genji. Just popping it here in case an editor would like to source and include it. I don't have time now. 86.134.61.227 (talk) 00:02, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Tale of Murasaki? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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:"The tale of Genji" writing in the 1001-1008 years, "monogatari" is a Japanese literary genre, it was the world's first novel, is a thirty million Japanese family immortal national literature. To the Heian Dynasty's heyday as the background, through the protagonist of Genji's life experience and love story, describing the political corruption of the society at that time and promiscuous life. The upper nobility mutual strife and struggle for power is a main theme throughout the book, but Genji love and marriage, it reveals the tragic fate of women under polygamy. In the aristocratic society, Women becomes political transaction tools and noble man's plaything<:ref>Book.douban.com. (2017). The tale of Genji (Douban). [online] Available at: https://book.douban.com/subject/1006113/ [Accessed 14 Mar. 2017].<:/ref>
It's virtually unreadable in its present form. I would try and clean it up but I can't make enough sense of it. 86.24.169.184 (talk) 04:58, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Text

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message: Is there any citable source, academic or otherwise that comments on the pedophilic themes in the story? The part where Genji takes a 10 year old because he's interested in her and grooms her to be his sexual partner is pretty blatant. Was that normative for the society at the time this was written or not? Was it only for that higher court world or class, and for males to be able to do? Even still would this be seen as transgressive or abusive at the time, or not? At any point during history when did that start to be the case in Japan or in the wider world, that people notice this sort of thing as wrong widely, or has it never been so?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.4.197.57 (talk) 21:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment on the Pedophilic Themes