Talk:Bombing of Dresden/Archive 2

message: I have Reverted to last verson before ("protected" please resolve disputes on Talk:Bombing of Dresden in World War II)) because there is no Agreement Yet. Philip Baird Shearer 10:46, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not revert to versions that are clearly not neutral, e.g. because of wordings like "seems appealing with hindsight". It seems to me as if there was consensus  about Harris not being the only one responsible for the actions some regard as war crimes. Get-back-world-respect 00:02, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: There is nothing special about the version that was protected. Its not protected anymore, and we are editing the article. You are counter concensus. Please stop insisting its your way or no way, thats an attitude contrary to the M:Foundation issues of the project, and to the concept of group editing in general. Pages change, and this is not your page. Sam [Spade] 19:27, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: Reverting with the only excuse that the version that was protected once should not be changed is absurd. Get-back-world-respect 00:36, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: No Agreement Yet

message: Vote A
Option A1
:So Dresden suffered fewer casualties than Hamburg (but was a smaller city), and a lower proportion of the population died than in the bombings of Darmstadt and Pforzheim and the bombing had a smaller psychological impact at the time than Hamburg. However this does not reduce the horror of bomber warfare. 
Option A2
:Dresden suffered fewer casualties than Hamburg (but was a smaller city), and a lower proportion of the population died than in the bombings of Darmstadt and Pforzheim. However this does not reduce the horror of bomber warfare.
Option A3 Remove the paragraph
#(see comments) Get-back-world-respect 00:43, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Dresden compared with other bombing targets in Germany

message: The disputed sections are in bold. 
:The Dresden bombing is a strongly debated decision, and the action is still widely perceived as lacking military justification, even within the context of the controversial area-bombing policy pursued against Germany by Britain's Bomber Command in 1942-1945. Some feel that Air Marshal Arthur Harris should have been held accountable for his controversial actions. The city has never regained its pre-war population of 630,000. (february 1945 570,000 plus 60,000 refugees). Others point to the fact that Dresden was a city engaged in Total War (as called for at a rally of the "Volksausschuß für Nationale Verteidigung" in Dresden) which had been declared a "Fortress" by Hitler and was a legitimate target.
Vote B</b>
Option B1 controversial 
:The Dresden bombing is a strongly debated decision, and the action is still widely perceived as lacking military justification, even within the context of the controversial area-bombing policy pursued against Germany by Britain's Bomber Command in 1942-1945. Some feel that Air Marshal Arthur Harris should have been held accountable for his controversial actions. 
Option B2 War crimes</strike>
::The Dresden bombing is a strongly debated decision, and the action is still widely perceived as lacking military justification, even within the context of the controversial area-bombing policy pursued against Germany by Britain's Bomber Command in 1942-1945. Some think that Air Marshal Arthur Harris and others should have been held accountable for war crimes or crimes against humanity. The city has never regained its pre-war population of 630,000. (february 1945 570,000 plus 60,000 refugees).
#Sam [Spade] 12:35, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dresden bombing is a strongly debated decision, and the action is still widely perceived as lacking military justification, even within the context of the controversial area-bombing policy pursued against Germany by Britain's Bomber Command in 1942-1945.
#Philip Baird Shearer 20:06, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

text: The Dresden bombing is a strongly debated decision, and the action is still widely perceived as lacking military justification, even within the context of the controversial area-bombing policy pursued against Germany by Britain's Bomber Command in 1942-1945. Some think that those responsible for the bombings, among them Air Marshal Arthur Harris, should have been held accountable for war crimes or crimes against humanity. The city has never regained its pre-war population of 630,000. (february 1945 570,000 plus 60,000 refugees).
# (see comments)Get-back-world-respect 00:43, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Dresden compared with other bombing targets in Germany 2

message: Vote C</b>
Option C1 Volksausschuß 
:Others point to the fact that Dresden was a city engaged in Total War (as called for at a rally of the "Volksausschuß für Nationale Verteidigung" in Dresden) which had been declared a "Fortress" by Hitler and was a legitimate target.
Option C2
:Dresden had been declared a "Fortress" city by Hitler somthing he did for many cities about to be invested by the Russians"
Option C3 Remove the sentence
#(see comments) Get-back-world-respect 00:49, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Volksausschuß

message: Vote D
Option D1
:Another charge is that the Allies knew the war was almost over. This idea seams appealing with hindsight, however the records show that the Allies viewed the war as far from over and to think otherwise was viewed as complacency after the shock of the German counterattack in the Ardennes.
Option D2
:Another charge is that the Allies knew the war was almost over. However the records show that the Allies viewed the war as far from over after the shock of the German counterattack in the Ardennes. Defenders of the bombing also see the action as legitimate in a Total War.
Option D3 Remove the paragraph
#Philip Baird Shearer 20:06, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Another charge is that the Allies knew the war was almost over. Defenders of the bombing dispute this and also see the action as legitimate in a Total War.
#(see comments) Get-back-world-respect 00:49, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Final paragraph in dispute

message: I set up this Poll suggestion.  Philip Baird Shearer 21:42, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Both B2 and B4 seem acceptable to me. The only problem is that they suggest that the World War II started after February 1945. That's the only logical conclusion one can draw after reading that the Feb. '44 population is pre-war. Halibutt 12:58, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
*I have not put a vote anywhere, but I feel that many of the problems derive from the use of weasel words: some feel others thinks, etc. If comprobable names were given, this would have a favorable effect in the npov of the article. I also agree with the the detail ponted out by Halibutt. --AstroNomer 19:36, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)
* I second what AstroNomer has said in the paragraph above about npov. I have asked that the protection be taken off the page at 21:45 UTC. So I assume somone will be happy to take the last version and put in the agreed changes from the poll shortly after that time Philip Baird Shearer 20:06, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: I uploaded :Image:Dresden1945.jpg, :Image:Dresden1945-2.jpg and :Image:Dresden1945-3.jpg (city destruction map)
Most recent official number of killed people: 35.000, official numbers changed between 25.000 and 160.000 in western Germany.
The east nearly always used 35.000. destroyed inner-city: 15 square kilommeters with 90% and more destroyed completely.
city population not significantly warned by bommber warning sound signals because that technology was no longer working.
The radio warned anyway. There were 222.000 flats in total. 75.000 of them totally destroyed, 11.000 strongly hit, 7.000 hit, 81.000 slightly damaged. Source: altes-dreesden.de (in German, private website) The many villa quarters (some of them situated in the most expensive 
living area of Europe in those times) were hit much less than bigger inner-city houses of the plain working class population. NetguruDD (sig added by Sam [Spade] 10:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Who do you think warned the refugees? Get-back-world-respect 23:42, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Amount of destruction and new pictures (not used yet)