Talk:Ornithopter

message: This article cought my eye because of the recent invention and development in the manned ornithopter flight that occured in 2010. The information in this article is well written but can be expanded on a little bit in some areas more then others. The article can also be better organized to help with the clearity and understanding of the article. The way that the article is organized helps the readers get a basic understanding of the article and the Ornithopter but it isn't till the reader gets half way through the article that things become clearer and make more sense. The article has a few gramatical errors that make the article look unreliable and unprofessional. The sources at the end of the article seem to be reliable and have good information about the ornothopter. The article also left the reader hanging in some areas telling them if they wanted more information, the should search for a certain example. It'd be better to organize the other information into the article so that readers are able to read the article and not have to continue searching in order to gather information.
Overall I think this article is well written but because there are aspects that are so new, the article has alot of improvements in it that may help broden out the topic and make it easier to read.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by HIST406-10109770231 (talk • contribs) 14:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Class Critique

message: An ornithopter is an aircraft that flies by wing-flapping. Many examples exist in nature such as birds, bats, and insects. Man-made ornithopters are usually on the same scale as these flying creatures, though some overscale, manned ornithopters have also been built.
I'm sorry, but the definition of "aircraft" (it's a machine) excludes birds, bats and insects from the definition of an ornithopter. Then "man-made" also is strange, because all machines are man-made, aren't they? These three sentences need a little tweaking. PeepP 20:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: "Alexander Lippisch appears to have held this point of view" < at the end of the second paragraph, in Ornithopter#Aerodynamics. 
*He appears to have? To whom?
*Someone should find a quote, and change this sentence to "In [YEAR] Alexander Lippisch held this point of view." or something more appropriate.
VdSV9•♫ 18:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  appears to have held 

message: The use of the same surfaces for lift and propulsion has the fundamental advantages that drag-inducing structures are minimized while the volume of air acted on to produce thrust is maximized. [...] From general aerodynamic considerations, ornithopters appear to make more efficient use of power than rotating propeller or jet aircraft do.
Apparently, the same could be said about a helicopter. Could someopne enlighten me (and improve the article) by describing the pros and cons of an ornithopter versus a helicopter? And why an ornithopter might be favorable to a helicopter?
Can an ornithopter produce a vortex ring? --Klaws 06:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ornithopters have two main advantages over helicopters: they are virtually silent and the ability to glide greatly reduces power consumption. LegendLength (talk) 23:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparision to helicopters 

message: The ornithopter shown in the title photograph appears quite crackpot in design and I believe it is inappropriate as the primary photograph in an article supposedly about the flight and development of working ornithopters. Perhaps it could go in a subsection, but I believe that something more plausible as a working machine should go at the top. My suggestions are Leonardo da Vinci's sketches, scale-model ornithopters shown in flight, or an image from fiction that shows a plausible machine (this could have the advantage of being obviously an ornithopter - many attempted models do not appear to be obviously flapping in still photos). Thoughts, anyone?--EDH 07:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: someone has recently changed the main photo to an animation of a model ornithopter in flight. Much more appropriate.--EDH 04:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo of ornithopter

message: The article claims that 15 minute flights were The minimum requirement is at least 15 HP for an ornithopter (or normal aircraft), and that is for level flight only, and presumes perfectly friction free moving parts etc..  The sums are easily done by even novice aero-engineers.  ( HOWEVER, consider 
"Adalbert Schmid flew a motorized, manned ornithopter at Munich-Laim. It was driven by small flapping wings mounted at the sides of the fuselage, behind a larger fixed wing. Fitted with a 3 hp Sachs motorcycle engine, it made flights up to 15 minutes in duration. Schmid later constructed a 10 hp ornithopter based on the Grunau-Baby IIa sailplane, which was flown in 1947. The second aircraft had flapping outer wing panels."
::Dear unsigned and undated, the reference in the article seems to be this page at ornithopter.org, and from there Schmid, Adalbert. Weltluftfahrt, volume 1, issue 9, March 1950, page 195. Schmid was clearly <nowik</nowiki>what is interesting is that the machine apparently took off from the ground. If one could get hold of the quoted reference, it would help. --Seejyb 07:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not remove, but I agree that it should be rewritten. As it stands it sounds a bit like ornithopter fanboys complaining that they're not taken seriously. Perhaps if a reliable source could be found asserting something of the sort (something like "flapping wing craft have long been ridiculed in aviation circles since the success of fixed wing craft") we could include that. Not sure how to word it though.--Yeti Hunter 00:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schmid Flight 

message: The result was: Merge --B. Wolterding 16:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that there's a place for descriptions of the various toy (model) ornithopters. Whether they go an a separate page or are included in the Ornithopter entry I'll leave that to someone else. There are more than one make of these other than Tim-Bird, as I had one of another make when I was a kid, back in the 1970s - I think it may have been Airfix. Ian Dunster 09:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So "Tim-Bird" is a brand name? --Yeti Hunter 04:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposed (Tim-bird) 

message: First 4 paragraphs provide unreferenced information. Links to Sage Grouse, Gossamer Albatross, Smithsonian Institution, SRI International, Reciprocating Chemical Muscle, pterosaur, Quetzalcoatlus northropi, Robert C. Michelson do not provide reference to recent developments of ornithopters or ornithopter technology. If proper references can be provided, it would help organize this section chronologically. If there are no supportive references, perhaps the information should not be included. I'm wondering for example about the idea that someone might accomplish something in the future that might be applied in this context should be included. Rogerfgay 13:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent developments 

message: (Copied from the Science desk:) Unfortunately, the efficiency section is not very accurate. Ornithocopters are not efficient for high-speed flight, as the wing-section required for lift is miniscule already. At supersonic speeds, I believe flight would be impossible for an ornithocopter. Current aircraft are more efficient for their mass and speed than birds are. Comfort has nothing to do with why we don't build ornithocopters, otherwise why wouldn't our reconnaissance drones have flapping wings? It is in fact a "failing" of biology to evolve a species to occupy a high-speed, high-mass, high-altitude niche, because to do so would require some kind of rotary muscle that does not exist in any animal we know of. The phenomenon is similar to why our ships use propellers instead of flippers. In this case, engineering firmly wins out, as many sea animals can compete with the weight and speed of our ships. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rotary motion could be achieved by cyclical sequential contractions of muscles arranged in ring shape, kinda like a peristaltic loop (there are plenty other ways besides this, this is just the first one that came to my mind); the  issue isn't making somthing spin, the issue is making it spin forever in a single direction, regular blood vessels and other tissues would either wrap around or get twisted and quickly rip apart. One possible solution would be if the "propeller" and "axle" were an external "dead" part, kinda like a fingernail or a snail's shell, but not "glued" to any flesh (at least past a certain age; young individuals could have that bodypart encased in some sort of sac to let it grow, and the spinning muscles might remain atrophied until the sac dries and the propeller+axle get free). But of course this isn't the only means of propulsion possible, animals could evolve somthing like a methane fueled jet/rocket engine for example... --TiagoTiago (talk) 14:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

text: Oh, and of course, cephalopods already use waterjet propulsion (no impelers there though).  --TiagoTiago (talk) 14:43, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Efficiency 

message: "As demonstrated by birds, flapping wings offer potential advantages in maneuverability and energy savings compared with fixed-wing aircraft." — This directly implies the possiblity that birds could have developed engines over the course of evolution. ¶ dorftrottel ¶ talk ¶ 20:32, December 5, 2007
:No.  It demonstrates that birds show us a lot of maneuverability, compared to man-made aircraft.  Whether that is correct or not (if you've seen recent RC aircraft you might be inclined to question it) is another matter. LegendLength (talk) 23:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why was most of the old aerodynamics section deleted, and what's this implication that ornithopters are more efficient than propellers about? There perpetually seems to be a lot of bad information in this section, and nobody is citing their references. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a reference to bit about "drag inducing structures are minimised", but it was in russian (with a crude translation) and may have been removed. It was the research of Toporov in the mid 1990s, and it also claimed efficiency of an ideal ornithopter being "close to 1". I'll see if I can track down a link. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 13:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ornithopter#Aerodynamics|Aerodynamics]] section 

message: Are there ANY real groups devoted just to building flying Ornithopeters? Or ANY REAL FLYING HUMAN CARRYING Ornithopeters flying today Articlr did not say! Lots of research but NO flying ornithopeters now exsist?!Why???VICTORISEDSONANDREJOHSONDDULC (talk) 23:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are ther ANY REAL Ornithopters/Grouips devoted to same? 

message: Whoever wrote it has no idea of what an ornithopter is. Needham said it was a "ornitophter flight", but an the man did not build a machine. He just put himself bird wings and feathers. This is out of place.--Knight1993 (talk) 23:22, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  chinese flight 

message: Hi!
This new machine could be mentionable (since you mention the toy of WowWee): 
The Festo SmartBird. 
It was shown on the Hannover Messe 2011 in Germany. I think its very interesting and promising.
Here are two links:
http://www.festo.com/cms/en_corp/11369.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnR8fDW3Ilo&feature=player_embedded  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.112.83 (talk) 09:43, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Festo SmartBird ? 

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests October 2011 
;What should I do?
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
* If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
* If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: File:UTIAS Ornithopter Flight.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: A section consisting entirely of entries such as
*In the book Freak the Mighty, Freak owns a ornithopter.
contributes nothing to the article, and ought to be removed. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 04:57, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with the principle. Many f&sf novels use ornithopters as background elements--need not be listed here.  Haven't read Dune recently so don't know how prominent ornithopters are. However, they are a significant plot element in H G Wells' The War in the Air, so I will add it. Maybe the criterion shouid be 'if ornithopters were removed,would the plot suffer?' NB--articles must be notable, content is not so restricted.  D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 18:12, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular culture 

message: This paragraph,
:In propeller- or jet-driven aircraft, the propeller creates a relatively narrow stream of relatively fast moving air. The energy carried by the air is lost. The same amount of force can be produced by accelerating a larger mass of air to a smaller velocity, for example by using a larger propeller or adding a bypass fan to a jet engine. Use of flapping wings offers even larger displaced air mass, moved at lower velocity, thus improving efficiency.
implies that ornithopters can theoretically be more efficient than fixed-wing aircraft.  But a few paragraphs later, the article flatly states that "Flapping wings increase drag and are not as efficient as propeller-powered aircraft."
Hopefully a qualified aerodynamicist can resolve this contradiction. 174.24.92.212 (talk) 14:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction in the article 

message: I removed the following paragraph:
:In propeller- or jet-driven aircraft, the propeller creates a relatively narrow stream of relatively fast moving air. The energy carried by the air is lost. The same amount of force can be produced by accelerating a larger mass of air to a smaller velocity, for example by using a larger propeller or adding a bypass fan to a jet engine. Use of flapping wings offers even larger displaced air mass, moved at lower velocity, thus improving efficiency.
I think this explanation fundamentally misunderstands Newton's Third Law.  The energy of propeller thrust which is "lost" to friction in the air is absolutely necessary, and is always equal to the thrust produced whether at high or low speed.  This paragraph does not say why low-speed air displacement is more efficient than high-speed, and also doesn't address the obvious potential for lower efficiency due to the need for the wing to flap upward while it is not producing thrust.  Given that it has been unreferenced for over two years, I think it was time for it to go, unless someone can provide a reliable source to support this. -- Beland (talk) 04:43, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The physics in the section removed is accurate, although poorly worded. The phrase "energy carried by the air" is ambiguous; it does not refer to momentum (vis a vis Newton3) but rather to the entropy generated in acceleration of the air mass. A small air mass accelerated to high velocity loses a greater share of energy to turbulence, heat, sound, etc, as compared to a large mass accelerated a small amount (but having equal momentum to the former case). I'll see if I can find a source specific to ornithopter physics.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:02, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious physics - paragraph removed 

message: "if a static wing is kept at the same angle while moving up and down, it will produce no net lift or thrust."
I disagree.  A curved wing displaces a different amount of air, depending on which way it's moving.  E.G., a wing that is convex on top and concave on the bottom would generate lift if it were flapping straight up and down.  In the same way, it could generate thrust if it were flapping at a fixed angle to the vertical.
"More recent vehicles [...] required the force of another towing vehicle in order to take off, and may not have been capable of generating sufficient thrust for sustained flight."
I'd classify something as "flying" if it's generating enough lift to stay airborne, whether or not it's also generating thrust.  So I think the sentence should read "generating enough lift for sustained flight."
Steve.Murgaski (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct, and fixed. And for an example of a fixed-wing ornithopter, see any insect flight. But your example of using a simple airfoil is also a good illustration of how that can work. SamuelRiv (talk) 02:56, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lift vs Thrust 

message: I would like to make some changes in the "wing design" section. First off, I don't know why there is a bunch of historical information in a section called "wing design". More importantly, some of the information is known to be false.
1. The first point I would like to revise is that Alphonse Penaud introduced the idea of a powered ornithopter in 1874. We know that Penaud flew a rubber-powered ornithopter in 1874, and this was "powered" in the sense that it was not using the muscles of the operator. However, Penaud was not the FIRST to achieve this. According to Octave Chanute's Progress in Flying Machines, Jobert already flew a similar rubber-powered ornithopter in 1871. Also, Gustav Trouve built a powered ornithopter in 1870, which was not rubber-powered. Therefore I would like to delete the claim that Penaud introduced the idea of a powered ornithopter. It could be expained better as follows: "The idea of a powered ornithopter (not using the muscles of the operator) was introduced c. 1870, with the work of Gustave Trouve, Jobert, and others. [2]" I don't think the statement about toys for children is important. It can be deleted. However, if someone wants to preserve this, it should be said "Some of these models were powered by rubber band, and found use as toys for children since the rubber band power source could not effectively scale up to the size of a manned aircraft."
2. Similarly, it is claimed that DeLaurier in 1991 made the first flight of a remotely piloted ornithopter. We know that Spencer flew a remotely-piloted ornithopter in 1961. We have videos and other references documenting this fact. So I want to delete the false statement, or replace it with a correct statement.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nathanchronister (talk • contribs) 16:01, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Getting Facts Straight in Wing Design Section 

message: Can the Agile Flight Project Phoenix be mentioned in article ?
See http://groups.csail.mit.edu/locomotion/flight.html
KVDP (talk) 09:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Phoenix

message: In the Sci-Fi channel production of Dune, Frank Herbert's original ornithopter transportation was replaced with aircraft that had directionally tiltable wings in which were fixed propellers, used for VTOL, then for forward thrust as the short wings were tilted a bit.  This same design appeared in the recent Showcase TV adaptation of Childhood's End.  Do we have an article on this?  I don't even know if such a vehicle is viable, but since the Dune show referred to them as ornithopters, it seems likely that some readers will come to this article looking for information on them, fictional or not.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:20, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The wings flapped? Or just changed their angle of attack for forward flight mode? If the former, it could be included as an example of ornithopters in fiction (could also include Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy). This article used to have such a section (2011 diff); not sure when or why it was removed - perhaps by User:Feezo who voiced his disapproval above? I don't mind such sections, as long as they are kept to a reasonable length and only include "notable" examples - while this is somewhat subjective and debatable, I think it's preferable to outright exclusion. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:22, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I removed the section—I'm not against "in fiction/culture" sections in general, but I don't feel that the "X appeared in Y" list format contributes substantively to articles. I think the cut-off point where fiction/culture sections become "encyclopedic" is when we can cite secondary sources discussing, in this case, the use of ornithopters in such works. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 18:04, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aircraft with propellers mounted in tiltable wings 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Ornithopter. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070707182622/http://www.fai.org/awards/recipient.asp?id=4181 to http://www.fai.org/awards/recipient.asp?id=4181
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:58, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ornithopter. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070222030435/http://www.ornithopter.org/archive/lange.jpg to http://www.ornithopter.org/archive/lange.jpg
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:24, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:06, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:07, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion