Talk:Marvel Heroes (video game)

message: The list of villains includes Havok (comics), who normally is a hero on the X-Men and recently Uncanny Avengers. I haven't seen him in the game and I don't see any proof he is a bad guy.  The villain list may be incomplete, some bad guys are rare.Frmorrison (talk) 19:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Villains

message: Can anybody clear up where that information came from? Thanks. 24.42.224.102 (talk) 15:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps someone was thinking of the browser-based game on Facebook called Marvel: Avengers Alliance that came out in 2012. This game has always been a normal Windows game.Frmorrison (talk) 14:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Browser based? 

message: The game's credits are now public, and the voice cast is as follows:
April Stewart - Jean Grey, Psylocke
Brian Bloom - Captain America, Daredevil
Chris Cox - Colossus, Hawkeye
Christopher Daniel Barnes - Symbiote Spider-Man
Danielle Nicolet - Storm, Ms. Marvel
Dave Boat - Thing, The Hood, Shocker
Drake Bell - Spider-Man
Fred Tatasciore - Hulk, Juggernaut, Blob, Mandarin, Beast
James C. Mathis III - Black Panther, War Machine, Luke Cage
James M. Connor - Cable, William Stryker
Julianne Buescher - Black Widow
Kari Wahlgren - Emma Frost, Boom Boom, Clea
Kate Higgins - Scarlet Witch, Jocosta
Logan Miller - Nova
Marc Worden - Iron Man, Punisher
Matthew Yang King - Human Torch
Nolan North - Deadpool, Pirate Deadpool, Tombstone
Rick D. Wasserman - Thor, Bullseye, Cloak, Wizard
Scott Porter - Cyclops
Steve Blum - Wolverine, Rocket Raccoon, Mr. Sinister, Taskmaster, Sauron
Tara Strong - Squirrel Girl, Moira MacTaggert, Dagger
James Arnold Taylor - Magneto
Jim Cummings - Kingpin
Kat Cressida - Elektra
Lex Lang - Dr. Doom
Andrew Kishino - Living Lazer
Ben Diskin - Rhino
Crispin Freeman - Pyro, Gorgon, Ka-Zar
Dave Wittenberg - Toad, Vision
Liam O'Brien - Electro, Nightcrawler, Havok
Minae Noji - Lady Deathstrike
Neil Kaplan - Sabretooth, Venom
Nick Jameson - MODOK, Dr. Strange
Robin Atkin Downes - Grim Reaper
Roger Rose - Mole Man
Tom Kenny - Dr. Octopus, Morph
Tasia Valenza - Madam Hydra
Travis Willingham - Green Goblin
Brett Pels - Pepper Potts, Sersi
Carlos Alazraqui - Forge
Cynthia McWilliams - Misty Knight
Rick Pasqualone - Madrox, Gambit
Vic Mignogna - Watcher
Cat Taber - Shanna, Rogue
Clark Gregg - Agent Coulson
Emerson Brooks - Bishop
Enn Reitel - Jarvis
James Sie - Jimmy Woo
Jim Ward - Professor Xavier
JP Karliak - Iron Fist
Kari Wuhrer - Maria Hill
Keith David - Nick Fury
Mary Elizabeth McGlynn - Jessica Jones, Moondragon
Mary Faber - Jean DeWolff, She-Hulk
Michael Beattie - Northstar
Michelle Arthur - Valkyrie
Richard Epcar - Madison Jeffries
Phil Buckman - Ghost
Stan Lee - Agent Lee
Tim Blaney - Ben Urich
Wally Winger - Hank Pym, Mr. Fantastic, Ikarus
But since the addition of "unsourced" (read: sourced using YouTube) videos is traditionally frowned upon, particularly by anons, would someone be willing to make note of these on the appropriate character and actor articles in my stead? (Or, at the very least, confirm whether a video of the in-game credits is sufficient sourcing?) -- 69.14.66.237 (talk) 02:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: See Wikipedia:GAMEGUIDE, generally speaking, a list of the actors providing voices for video game characters is not appropriate for this article. If those actors have a Wikipedia page, I think you could mention their voice work for this game and source the YouTube video, assuming it came from one of the official channels of Marvel, may be acceptable as primary source if their authenticity can be confirmed, or as a secondary source if they can be trace to a reliable publisher.  The worry is the video could be changed or it is copyrighted material that should not be uploaded.Frmorrison (talk) 19:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's what I'm saying. I'm not looking to make a list on this page; I'm looking to add all the actors to the character pages, and all the character credits to the actor pages, but I needed help finding a citation that wasn't just video of the credits on YouTube. -- 69.14.66.237 (talk) 03:12, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voice Cast 

message: I'm fairly sure Marvel Universe Online and Marvel Heroes are completely different games - MVO eventually became Champions Online, a full 3D downloadable game. Marvel Heroes is a browser-based Diablo game. I think these need two separate pages. Grill (talk) 18:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Split 

message: The whole section claiming Marvel Heroes is the same game as Marvel Universe Online needs to be removed.
They are not the same game.
Marvel Universe Online went on to become Champions Online.
Marvel Heroes is a completely different game from a completely different development company.
: You are right, but this is Wikipedia, so I'm just shaking my head and ignore this… it's basically lost at this point. --jae (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marvel Heroes is not the same game as Marvel Universe Online 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: The recent addition of a character list is inappropriate per #6 of WP:GAMECRUFT. WP:GAMECRUFT says:
"Lists of characters lacking secondary sourcing: Following from the above, excessive in-game details on characters is strongly discouraged. Standalone lists of video game characters are expected to be (1) written in an out-of-universe style with a focus on their concept, creation, and reception, and (2) cited by independent, secondary sources to verify this information. While character lists can include some plot summary specific to the character, these plots should not be rehashes of the video game(s) in which they appear but instead broad strokes that simplify the plots of individual games. If these requirements cannot be met, it is instead more appropriate to reduce the list to one to three paragraphs of prose within the "Plot" or "Synopsis" section of the game or series article. It is almost never appropriate to create a standalone list of characters that appear within a single video game as these can be described in the game's article."
There's no "focus on their concept, creation, and reception", and the source is a youtube video which is not appropriate per WP:SPS. The long and short of it is that this information is simply information for the sake of information, with nothing to show how or why it's relevant in the larger scope of the article. By the way, you can see a similar list of voice actors being deemed inappropriate per the same guideline in the entry further up the page, oddly enough also using a youtube video as a source. Eik Corell (talk) 16:15, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's excessive for the exact reason you specified: It's a straight forward enumeration; a list of every single character, with no information to show how or why said list is relevant to the average reader. Lists presented without any information are indiscriminate information (WP:IINFO). WP:GAMECRUFT is an extension of that which deals specifically with information clutter in video game articles, be it cast lists, voice actors lists, weapon lists, or character lists. The point is to avoid precisely these kinds of lists where things are just being listed for the sake of listing information. If you look at the character section right now, most of it is sourced information that's not presented in a list kind of format, but in prose like the rest of the article. It shows examples of a few characters, talks about customization, etc, and it already links to other articles like Marvel Universe, which readers can check for this in-depth information. While the characters are in the game, knowing the name of every one of them is not really necessary to understanding the subject matter. The current character section is quite adequate, and adding a complete list doesn't achieve much else than lengthening it. Eik Corell (talk) 02:01, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Content like this is indeed present in many articles and it's a recurring problem, hence why WP:GAMECRUFT exists. Wikipedia is not supposed to provide information for the sake of information -- As it states, "To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. As explained in § Encyclopedic content above, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia.". WP:GAMECRUFT is basically the video-game specific version of this more broad guideline. The way it relates here is that listing all these characters provides no deeper understanding of the game. Instead, the list sits in isolation even to the character section it was appended to, as it has no sources indicating how or why any one -- or all -- of the listed characters are notable/worthy of mention. For in-depth / trivial information like this, fan sites/wikis are the more appropriate venue. That's not to say that Wikipedia does not have lists of characters, but per #6 of WP:GAMECRUFT, such lists are supposed to be properly sourced and if this is not possible, reduced to prose within their relevant section of the article, and this is already done in the plot section. Eik Corell (talk) 05:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia's policy on lists is MOS:LISTS. From there on, MOS:PROSE catches my eye - You can see which box the current additions fit into -- the "list with no content" box. In order to make the list of characters conform to the prose version, you would need sources and additional information on how each character is worthy of mention. On the subject of sources, youtube videos again are not reliable, third-party sources because they're user-generated content, i.e anyone can make a video, a blog or a forum post, but that doesn't make the video or the creator notable. WP:IINFO comes into play again here: Even if it was an official video, simply being true or verifiable using said source doesn't warrant inclusion by itself. About determining whether something is notable or worthy of mention in this case is simply whether mentioning it brings any better understanding of the content in the article, and I don't understand what you mean when you say that the list does "focus on their concept, creation, and reception, and (2) cited by independent, secondary sources to verify this information.". The articles themselves do this, but the list itself has none of this. This, rather, would be an example of such a section that focuses on these three things. Going way back to the average reader thing, I can give a practical example: In the list, there's a character listed: Cyclops. But cyclops is not described anywhere in the plot section. Even if they were, per #5, 6 and 7 of WP:GAMECRUFT, mention would still be best suited to the relevant sections such as plot or reception. Maybe the character does have a role somewhere somehow, I wouldn't know, but in light of the plot section as it stands, there seems to be no reason to mention them separately from said section, again other than simply doing it for the sake of doing it -- the WP:IINFO thing. You're completely correct in mentioning that along with confusing information (the eternity splinter thing) there are sources missing for information in the character section, and this kind of info is prone to vandalism, for example someone changing "63" to "64" or "level 10" to "level 11". I would assume the 100 thing specifically might have used the source linking to a game guide on marvelheroes.com, but that site is gone. Regardless, without sources, all of this information could be completely fabricated, purposely or inadvertently misrepresented and so on. Eik Corell (talk) 22:47, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

text: It seems we're a bit stuck here, I've asked for some other editors' opinions here on WP:VG's talk page for some outside perspective. Eik Corell (talk) 02:20, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  is correct. A long list of in-game characters is trivial. See WP:VGSCOPE No. 6. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 12:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, WP:VGSCOPE No. 6 only covers character list articles, not lists of characters within game articles; note in particular the line "It is almost never appropriate to create a standalone list of characters that appear within a single video game as these can be described in the game's article." [emphasis added] Also, this particular article is in a different situation because the playable characters are notable outside of video games, meaning it makes sense to list them for similar reasons to why we list actors in movie articles.--Martin IIIa (talk) 14:52, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You seem to be right about #6. With that said, 5 and 7 seem to be the ones that apply. I don't know what to think about comparing comic book/universe characters to actors though, partly because I'm not familiar with movie article guidelines, but primarily because it seems like if a list of characters is to be included, it should be proportional and relevant to their role within the subject matter. Does the character play a main role in the plot, are they a side character, or are they simply DLC-ish additions, i.e a character you can play but who's otherwise isolated from the story. Given that the plot section already mentions a lot of the characters, just as the the character section provides some examples and a link to the Marvel Universe article, I don't see the benefit in mentioning a complete list, even if the characters by themselves may be iconic. This is to say nothing of the lack of sources, which seems essential in showing that how or why they're notable that I was talking about. Eik Corell (talk) 20:52, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the character's role in the plot should be a determinant in whether or not they're mentioned in an article. If anything, it should hinge on the character's prominence in the game. This is analogous to how movie articles list cast according to their prominence in the film, per WP:FILMCAST. (For example, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels (film) includes Ian McDiarmid, Dana Ivey, Meagen Fay, Frances Conroy, and Louis Zorich in the cast list even though none of them are significant to the film's plot.) This makes all the more sense with video games, which commonly have no plot to speak of. I find it hard to imagine that there are no sources covering which playable characters are in the game. If I dig one up, will that satisfy you?--Martin IIIa (talk) 14:52, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm still on the fence, WP:GAMECRUFT #7 mentions unlockable characters at least as not being appropriate. Granted I haven't really come across the argument of comic book characters being notable in the same way you mentioned before, so I'm honestly not sure. Having a look at some other video game series article with notable or widely known characters, I noticed one way I think might be appropriate: In the bottom of the The Walking Dead franchise article, there's a category that lists the other titles in the series but also all the characters. If instead it's presented within the article, I think we should try to avoid the "list with no content" on MOS:PROSE. Maybe one of those two solutions might work, what I'm concerned with if we implement it is how long and what the cutoff point is. Eik Corell (talk) 18:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Character list