Talk:Antisocial personality disorder/Archive 1

message: Psychopathy is not "antisocial personality disorder." Psychopathy needs its own separate page, since it is a well defined and objectively measured condition (likely the only such phenomenon in all of psychology, see books by Dr. Robert Hare, and his PCL-R posted by someone below). This is URGENT because normal people are being punished as 'psychopaths 'or 'sociopaths' after an APD 'diagnosis' while dangerous true psychopaths are free to cause mayhem. Please correct it all who can, since it is truly urgent.
:Are you suggesting that the definition of APB on this page does not reflect the accepted definition, or that the accepted definition is wrong?  If the latter, this isn't the place to try to change psychiatric practice. Geoff NoNick 15:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have restored the Psychopathy page to the last version, in the hope that all those commenting here on it's merging will have plenty to add to the article, and plenty to say in discussion? --82.195.137.125 17:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is also my feeling that all commentary specific to Psychopathy should be removed from this page and placed there, with cross references on both where relevant but I would rather seek a concensus before doing anything so drastic. However, may I point out that the entry for Infectious Disease does not contain all the information on Malaria, nor does the entry for Malaria redirect there. I respectfully suggest that this is a similar case. --82.195.137.125 18:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually, it would seem to have just been merged and re-directed by a private individual, not unlike myself, who has just undone that, thus far the sky has shown no signs of falling in. This seems to be a big part of what Wikipedia is about. Thus ensuring that while nothing here can ever be wholly accurate, let alone ideal or perfect, nothing ever needs to be inaccurate or misrepresented for long unless we let it be? --82.195.137.125 18:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  This page is completely wrong! 

message: Can the Freudian reference be removed, it is not valid or valuable in modern psychology.  Freudian theory is out of place in serious discussion of psychological disorders. June 10 2005
:I didn't read the Freudian definition, but this is technically an encyclopedia, not a serious discussion on psychological disorders. Besides which, it is always valuable as a means to psychoanalyze Freud, and the person who included it in the article. 24.22.227.53 04:10, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Freudian

message: I have been watching JAG since the beginning, and since Nanci Chambers was hired to portray Lt. Loren Singer, JAG USN;  Please excuse me for not being a mental health professional, but she did not strike me as a "psychopath", merely a hard nosed _itchy female officer who was also a lawyer, who also happened to be in the Judge Advocate General's Corps of the US Navy...
Just my two cents worth
{Michael 02:49, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, it's correct, but what you consider to be impulsivity (for example) is not necessarily what a diagnostician is going to consider it to be (difference between impulsively buying a box of candy and impulsively buying a Lamborghini/big-screen TV when you need to borrow to do so) (IANADiag.). 24.22.227.53 04:38, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lt. Loren Singer -Psychopath? 

message: On 20 May 2005, User:212.56.128.186 deleted a lot of information from this article. I have no way of knowing if this was a good decision, however, I observe that a chunk of it (sections Examples of sociopaths in television and onwards) were put back later, and noted as correcting vandalism.  
For example: Current content
Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a personality disorder which is often characterized by antisocial and impulsive behaviour. APD is generally (if controversially) considered to be the same as, or similar to, the disorder that was previously known as psychopathic or sociopathic personality disorder.
Deleted at the end of that paragraph was
Approximately 3% of men and 1% of women have some form of antisocial personality disorder (source: DSM-IV).
A number of other changes were made, some mystifying, but it is too late to simply
revert as other changes have followed.
Someone who knows something about this subject might like to check
the history (difference link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antisocial_personality_disorder&diff=13998851&oldid=13968240)
Notinasnaid 17:47, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noting possible changes that might want to be reversed 

message: The article contains lists of people and fictional characters who are allegedly sociopaths. The lists appear to be based on the opinions of contributors. I think this is original research, which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Classifying people as sociopath is pretty subjective if the criteria are vague, especially in the case of fictional characters. For example, whether Patrick Bateman (in American Psycho) is a sociopath depends, among other things, on the accuracy of his own descriptions: has he really committed the murders he describes or is it just fantasy? Both interpretations are compatible with the novel, so whether the text indicates that Bateman is (potentially) a sociopath or not is a matter of opinion.
I think both lists are inherently POV, unless we change it to something like People diagnosed with ASPD and then provide references for all entries to a source that mentions the diagnosis by a psychologist/psychiatrist. I would like to hear what other people think about this. If no one objects, I'll remove the lists in a week or so. Sietse 10:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Lists of fictional and famous sociopaths: Original research? 

message: seems wrong that initial use of this abbre viation is well before definition
I agree. Abbreviations and/or acronyms should not precede their referent.--12.203.233.125 11:26, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  PCL-R 

message: this constructed 'pathology' is pretty much word by word the ethics of the german Nazis. And the Soviet Union also had almost the same provisions for social control, formulated as psychiatric diagnoses. I really really hope you americans have not yet sunk to this level, as to accept such hokey nonsense for real science. It's science imitation intended to impress TV-watchers, thats what it is. Viande hachée
:Besides some of their more noxious social programs, inhumane treatment of others and domineering political regimes, what was so wrong with the Nazis and Soviets? 24.22.227.53 07:17, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr. Hare is a Canadian, the ICD is primarily European, the DSM is USAian. 24.22.227.53 07:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  bullshit squared 

message: Article begins "Antisocial personality disorder (APD), or dissocial personality disorder, is a personality disorder which is often characterized by antisocial and impulsive behaviour." Considering that the DSM has specific criteria for the definition of antisocial personality disorder, it would be better state this instead of using a vague "often characterized by" construction. This definition of APD also refutes another criticism offered in the intro. ("Both of these tests depend upon the person in question being a criminal or having participated in criminal activities.") No such requirement is stated in the diagnostic criteria, although repeatedly "performing acts that are grounds for arrest" is one of the several possible criteria (of which three must met) for the diagnosis.
I think beginning the article with the concise DSM criteria would work fine: "...defines antisocial personality disorder as a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following...." From there it would be logical to move to the  Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R). --BAW 11:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  comments on the intro

message: "Don Logan (Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast), Doyle Hargrave (Dwight Yoakam in "Sling Blade"), and Frank Booth (Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet), all of whom are crude, impulsive characters who relentlessly torment other people, the former of whom fails to foresee the consequences of his actions."
The bolded character was added in an edit, along with the bolded phrase.  Is this accurate as it stands (disregarding whether or not these characters meet the technical requirements for psychopathy (a 30 on the Hare list, or whatever criteria in a psychopathy DSM or ICD checklist)), is the first or middle character the one to whom the phrase applies? I have insufficient knowledge of these movies to know. 24.22.227.53 02:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portrayals of Psychopaths in the media 

message: Why does the the word 'antisocial' redirect to the psychiatric diagnosis?  Wikipedia isn't a medical or psychiatric journal; the common term 'antisocial' doesn't refer to psychopathy, sociopathy, or 'social anxiety disorder'.  For instance, I might choose not to be social with specific people or groups, or at specific places (with that mean bastard next door; with neoconservatives; at the local bar), and hence be antisocial towards them.  But that does not mean I have 'social anxiety' towards those situations.  I might be perfectly confident about going to a party where I know some mean bastard will be present; but choose not go there because of the mean bastard.  On the other hand, why should my disinclination to socialize (for example) with mean bastards, neoconservatives, or, at the local bar, imply that I have a disorder?  oneismany 16:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: But the reverse of sociable is unsociable, not antisociable.  Perhaps 'unsociable' is a better term than 'antisocial' for the inclination against socializing, but 'antisociable' or 'asociable' also sound like better terms for pathological unsociability.  'Social' is a vague term, but 'sociability' is much better defined, or so it seems to me.  oneismany 09:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Now hold on a minute here

message: I think there's confusion here between the concept of antisocial, which means a person acts against society, and asocial, where the person is more of a loner. Also if the link from this page to the social anxiety page is because of the confusion between antisocial and asocial, then wouldn't schizoid be a better example of a asocial type of disorder. An antisocial person lacks things such as empathy or morals, and a schizoid lacks the need for socialization. Someone with social anxiety disorder may very well have a "normal" need and desire for human interaction, but has trouble in interacting with people as others "normally" do. Their isolation isn't so much a extention of their personality as it is an unusually powerful emotion, or line of though infringing on their perceptions. An antisocial person seemingly has no struggle with themselves to behave antisocially, it is thought to come much more naturally. It's not that some recurent though or mood makes moral action difficult, it's that they the desire to act so isn't even present. They act so because it is an extention of their personality. At least I think that's how it might work172.190.214.17 18:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antisocial vs asocial 

message: Hello Everyone!
My name is Paul Hruza and I have written this short note to express myself as one who was married to a woman with Antisocial Personality Disorder.  I tried desperately for 6 years of marriage, and now 3 years after the divorce to get inside this person's mind and heart and understand her, but to no avail.  She lied and cheated on her first husband with me (with whom she had two children) after 5 years (and boy do I REGRET it!), lied and cheated on me after 6 years of marriage (with her latest husband), and has now left him TEN TIMES in their brief 3 year marriage to travel from Yokota AFB, Japan, back to Panama City, Florida.  The first time she returned was 45 days after their "marriage".  She even went as far as denying she was married to him at all, to her family members, children and I...  
When she finally divorced me I decided I needed to make sure I was "OK" mentally and spent many hours with a good psychologist.  Discussions of my relationship with this person revealed a diagnosis of APD.  The psychologist told me I should be awarded a medal for having lasted as long as I did with this person.  I refused to believe it at first but after spending a few hours on the internet studing this disorder I saw the truth.  I sat there with tears running down my face reading my exwife's "diary"!  She fills all the squares for this disorder except for two.  She has never been in trouble with the law, being much to cunning for that (not so much as a speeding ticket), nor does she do drugs.  She will have the occasional alcoholic beverage.  Two at most in any setting.  Beyond this, she fills all the squares.
My relationship with her was "fairly stable" until the decision was made (by her) to send the children to live with their father in Utah.  Once the responsibility of raising the kids was gone that was it, "All Hell Broke Loose".  It was as though she fell off a cliff and was free to manipulate anyone and anything in her way.  
I guess I am amazed by the amount of lies she is capable of without so much as a blink of the eye.  There have been hundreds of them, more likely thousands.  She has lied to all her husbands, friends, family, even her own children!  Her sense of cunning and deceitfulness is unbelieveable.  I have only actually witnessed her shed a tear three times in 13 years of knowing her.  She truely has no heart whatsoever...  As of today's date (02/15/06) she is 40 years old, $7000 in debt, has no career (she has quit 7 jobs in Japan to run back here to Florida), and currently owns six boxes of clothes that have been shipped back and forth.  I think her current husband must fall into the "Codependent" category since he has taken her back each and every time.  
Each time she leaves she will contact me one way or the other and evetually decide that she does not want to be with this "husband" of hers and promises to get a divorce and remain with me...  And, after a few weeks or months, "disappears into the night" when I am not at home.  She will not face him nor I when it comes time to leave, she prefers sneaking out when you aren't looking (more deceitfullness).  I could go on and on about the situation but would rather end this discussion here and offer my experiences to anyone would may have the need to discuss what it's like to have someone like this in your life for such a long period of time.  Please feel free to contact me if you would like to learn more.  My email is paul.hruza61@knology.net   
I hope this helps someone, somewhere....   Thanks!
Paul
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.55.121.8 (talk • contribs).
I'm sorry Paul someone close to me was a sociopath too —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.162.100.87 (talk • contribs).
Am I reading East of Eden here?70.132.31.72 02:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marriage to an APD...  Any Questions?