Talk:Serendipity

message: Just want to say that the eBay image made me laugh. Don't remove it! slicedoranges
Why the stub warning? What's missing? -- till we *) 10:11, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)
:I think it's too much of a dictionary entry; there ought to be more 'encyclopedic' material in there. Gaurav 13:20, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just want to say 

message: good luck or to find something useful
Serendipity is also used for descirbing the "exaltation" of the scientist, when he is struck by the new insight. It is new because he had not planned to see it. The sense of serendipity gives him a sudden insight in the value of what he has seen. (reas)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.134.8.252 (talk) 19:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serendipity 

message: Walpole derived "serendipity" from The Three Princes of Serendip, parts of which can be traced back to Firdausi'sShahnameh.  There is an example of serendipity in the Shahnameh.  
In the first part of the Shahnameh ("The First Kings"), it is told how King Hushang discovered fire from flint: "One day the king was riding ..." when he encountered a big black monstrous snake.  The king threw a rock.  The thrown rock hit the ground and shattered.  "From the collision of the two stones a spark leaped out and the rock's heart glowed with fire.  The snake was not killed but the fiery nature of flint was discovered so that whenever anyone struck it with iron sparks flashed forth."  Hushang gave thanks to god and from that day forth men prayed toward fire.  (Quotations from: Shahnameh; The Persian Book of Kings, translated by Dick Davis, Copyright: Mage Publishers, Washington DC, 1997/2000/2004; Published by Viking Penguin, NY/London, 2006.)
If Walpole had read that, he might have coined "hushangdipity" instead of "serendipity".AdderUser 23:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serendipity in the Origin of the Origin of The Three Princes of Serendip 

message: The bulk of this page is a list of accidental scientific discoveries, which isn't really about serendipity. The list needs to be made into a separate article (eg List of accidental scientific discoveries), and the remainder of the article tidied up. --88.111.41.106 01:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split page 

message: The paragraph that starts with "Post-it Notes" in the Inventions section , contains text "3:00AM" and I think it should say "3M". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.130.245.126 (talk) 01:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3M not 3:00AM 

message: 1. oxygen: Just what was serendipitous about the discovery of O2?  Rather, the multiple independent disoveries of O2? 
2. Acyclovir: unless I'm mistaken, acyclovir was discovered as part of a deliberate research program in anti-proliferative and anti-viral agents.  
3. ether: Just what was serendipitous about the multiple independent developments of ether as an anesthetic?  People knew about its hypnotic effects and the men who started using it in surgery (Morton, Long, et al.) did so deliberately, not by accident.
4. Acetylsalicylic acid (Aspirin): Hoffmann was deliberately trying to moderate the effects of salicylic acid which his father found discomforting.  The product of his focused efforts was Aspirin.  No serendipity.  (Whether he was the first to make it or not is irrelevant: there was a deliberate search for a derivative with fewer side effects than salicylic acid itself.)
5. Magainin (from frogs): The fact that frogs are able to resist infection even after suffering severe wounds is what compelled Zasloff to search for a natural substance associated with that resistance in their skin.  Lo and behold, he found what he was looking for: the magainins.  What was the serendipity?
6. benzodiazepine: The comments provided are not consistent with what I have read about the discovery of this class of compounds.  Sternbach had prepared a series of compounds for another project.  Quite some time (years) later, he pulled out those old samples for testing on a new project.  Only one of them was active.  It turns out that the lone active structure was NOT what he had tried to synthesize; the reaction to make that compound had taken an unexpected course and produced a benzodiazepine.  The part about "while cleaning up his lab" is, according to what I have read, untrue.  
I can't check all of these entries, but many of them seem borderline to bogus.  I think many of them should be deleted.
7. Spelling: cyanoacrilate is cyanoacrYlate. AdderUser 02:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the entries no. 2,4,5. I agree with your concerns and it would be fine if you can check and substantiate more of them. --Cyclopia 14:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bogus examples? 

message: 1. "The first oral contraceptive (a.k.a. The Pill) was discovered by Dr. Carl Djerassi [sic] accidental production of synthetic progesterone and its intentional modification to allow for oral intake."  This is bogus.  The contraceptive effects of certain steroids, including progesterone, were known since the 1930s. Syntex was founded to increase the supply of synthetic steroids for medical purposes, in particular progesterone.  People were studying progesterone analogs for contraceptive purposes for several years and Syntex was well aware of that work.  Syntex provided its compounds to outside institutions for testing their effectiveness as contraceptives.  There was nothing accidental or serendipitous about the Syntex research program into steroid synthesis and testing.  It was a deliberate, structured chemical research program.  The biology was validated externally.
2. "The anesthetic ether."   This is bogus.  The medicinal properties of ether were known to alchemists and chemists for hundreds of years.  The use of ether as an anesthetic in surgery was not an accident.  It was the deliberate and presumably independent invention of several surgeons.  The wikipedia page on ether mentions Crawford Williamson Long and William T.G. Morton but there were other reports in the medical literature or in privately printed medical monographs by several others, some predating Long.
3. "The first benzodiazepine, chlordiazepoxide (Librium) was discovered accidentally in 1954 by the Austrian scientist Dr Leo Sternbach (1908–2005), who found the substance while cleaning up his lab."  Totally bogus.  Leo Sternbach had first prepared compounds of these types when he was a postdoc in Cracow, Poland in the 1930s. He resurrected that work experience while at Roche on a project that was eventually dropped.  Quoting Sternbach (J. Med. Chem., 1979, 1-7): "At that time (this was the second half of 1955) we had to stop our work in the quinazoline field since other problems seemed to be of greater importance. We became involved with other synthetic projects and the isolation, purification, and degradation of various antibiotics. This intensive work, of little practical value, finally led, in April 1957, to an almost hopeless situation. The laboratory benches were covered with dishes, flasks, and beakers-all containing various samples and mother liquors. The working area had shrunk almost to zero, and a major spring cleaning was in order. During this cleanup operation, my co-worker, Earl Reeder, drew my attention to a few hundred milligrams of two products, a nicely crystalline base and its hydrochloride. The products were not submitted for pharmacological testing at that time [... 1955, so ...] we submitted the water-soluble salt for pharmacological evaluation in 1957."  Once the sample became a valuable drug lead, further examination and structure proof revealed that the compounds were not the expected benzheptoxdiazines but the unexpected benzodiazepines that arose from the rearrangement of a chemical intermediate.  Starting in the 1930s, the work was deliberate; the submission of the "known" crystalline sample was deliberate; the rearrangement was unexpected but not consequential to the discovery of Librium.  Rather, the realization that the samples were valuable drug leads (in 1957) simply led to a better effort to prove the identity of the compounds by methods previously (1930s, Cracow) unavailable.  OTHER benzodiazepines were known in the literature long before Sternbach's samples were properly identified but they had not been tested for valuable drug programs and so remained obscure.  Sternbach did not invent or even discover the benzodiazepines as new chemical class.  He simply did good chemistry, examined and then re-examined his data and corrected his earlier mistakes.  AdderUser (talk) 01:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Please supply verifiable sources for these claims.–OrangeDog (talk • edits) 23:22, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still Bogus; Still there; Should be removed 

message: This is provided as an example in both the inventions and chemistry sections. One of them is redundant but I don't know which. Capuchin 11:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post it note 

message: Why should we keep this random collection of trivial "examples" peppered with original research? --Ghirla-трёп- 18:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is indeed a random collection - of examples, of stories, and of ideas about how discoveries are made and such (which may or may not be original research - there are some sources but not online and not tied to specific parts of the article). Without knowing a whole lot about the topic, there seems to be material for an article here, but right now it isn't an article, it is just a jumble. Kingdon 13:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Indeed, a collection of examples does not serendipitously turn into an article. However, there is a kernel of encyclopedic content here, albeit not well written or sourced. It should probably be stubbed by expunging the example farm, rather than deleted. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:45, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prod it? 

message: There was a section about a program called "serendipity" for some business school in Utah.  I deleted it.  Is there any reason such a section shouldn't be deleted?
FructoseFred 02:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serendipity Ad? 

message: There seems to be a lack of distinction between the Chemistry, Pharmacology and Medicine sections. Some of these examples may need moving, or the categories merging.–OrangeDog (talk • edits) 23:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Example classification 

message: Can chocolate chip cookies really be claimed to be a separate invention to chocolate drop cookies? Everywhere I've seen them they're all referred to as the former (McVities etc.) –OrangeDog (talk • edits) 23:24, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cookies? 

message: >Gelignite by Alfred Nobel, when he accidentally mixed collodium (gun cotton) with nitroglycerin
Sorry, guys, bullcrap supreme. Afred Nobel was experimenting deliberately and widely with nitroglycerin to make it into safer and more handleable explosive, one of his experimental results was this. It's not at all anything unexpected - he wanted to make explosive out of nitroglycerin, he made it. Unexpected would have been if he tried to make explosive and would get some totally nonexplosive bricks or lipsticks or cattle aphrodisiac. 
Actually role of serendipity is highly overrated by general public, article should include some warnings about that.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.13.135.137 (talk) 17:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bogus  example - gelignite 

message: There's still much debate if Fleming can be credited or not as the true discoverer or penicillin's medical use. While his version does apply to this article, other's penicillin's discoveries were not. --Japoniano (talk) 22:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Penicillin]] by [[Alexander Fleming]] 

message: In the Finite Element Method a family of elements exists which are called "Serendipity Elements". Maybe one should mention them in a new category "Applied Mathematics" or "Engineering". 130.83.197.163 (talk) 13:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finite Elements 

message: There are several bogus examples of serendipity that do not belong in the main article at all.  There are several cases that may or may not be good examples of serendipity and remain controversial.  Comments directing readers to more detailed discussions (these discussion pages) have been repeatedly deleted.  WHO IS IN CHARGE of the serendipity article?  How about cleaning it up and locking it down? AdderUser (talk) 23:34, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is in charge of the Main Article page? 

message: The article says: 
She did not have the required chocolate so she broke up a candy bar and placed the chunks into the cookie mix. These chunks later morphed into what is now known as chocolate chip cookies.
The "chunks" are from the candy bar, so they would not morph into cookies. Instead, the chunks were placed in the mix, and drops of the mix became cookies. 
Not sure if something slightly different is intended. Wakablogger2 (talk) 07:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chocolate chip cookie confusion 

message: The examples section(s) seems too long to me.  Do we have consensus on what optimal length would b RJFJR (talk) 04:38, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of examples section? 

message: As a schoolkid, I was witness of a non-serendipidity in medicine. A tabloid was running a story in 3 to 5 instalments on an Indian yogi who had recently come to Europe. Part of their interest was to present sensational bodily capabilities of the Yogi which were contrasted e.g. with those of popular sportsmen. They reported about a walk on burning coal, watched by a scholar of sports medincine, who with a team of about five scientists and technicians made a bunch of recordings, such as EEG, EKG, pulse, skin temperature, etc. during the event. They unexpectedly discovered that the yogi had no heartbeat for a period during the ceremony. At that time, it was to the best of my knowledge completely unknown in western medicine that this can happen. Instead of using the serendipous detection, the professor forbade the paper to quote his findings and to mention his and his institutions names in the context. He said he was afraid to loose his international reputation as a scientist if he made the measurements public.  Almost 30 years later, I met a person who knew of, or was involved in, a publication of the same type of observation in an american indian shaman or medicine man, claiming that it was the 1st scientific publication of said observation.  What I experienced is not published anywhere, so we cannot use it as an example. Yet I would like to suggest to add a section on possible serendipidity which did not take place. It would also be nice to have estimates on accidentally and/or consciously wasted opportunities for serendipous findings. --Purodha Blissenbach (talk) 14:25, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncaught opportunities 

message: So why is this not a redirect to wiktionary? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  18:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wiktionary 

message: These examples removed from article (along with laundry-list tag) as excessively long. RJFJR (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples in science and technology 

message: * The German chemist Friedrich August Kekulé von Stradonitz having a reverie of Ourobouros, a snake forming a circle, leading to his solution of the closed chemical structure of cyclic compounds, such as benzene.
* Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (or LSD) by Albert Hofmann, who found this potent hallucinogen while trying to find medically useful derivatives in ergot, a fungus growing on wheat.
* Gelignite by Alfred Nobel, when he accidentally mixed collodium (gun cotton) with nitroglycerin
* Polymethylene by Hans von Pechmann, who prepared it by accident in 1898 while heating diazomethane
* Low density polyethylene by Eric Fawcett and Reginald Gibson at the ICI works in Northwich, England. It was the first industrially practical polyethylene synthesis and was discovered (again by accident) in 1933
* Silly Putty by James Wright, on the way to solving another problem: finding a rubber substitute for the United States during World War II.
* Chemical synthesis of urea, by Friedrich Woehler. He was attempting to produce ammonium cyanate by mixing potassium cyanate and ammonium chloride and got urea, the first organic chemical to be synthesised, often called the 'Last Nail' of the coffin of the Élan vital Theory
* Pittacal, the first synthetic dyestuff, by Carl Ludwig Reichenbach. The dark blue dye appeared on wooden posts painted with creosote to drive away dogs who urinated on them.
* Mauve, the first aniline dye, by William Henry Perkin. At the age of 18, he was attempting to create artificial quinine. An unexpected residue caught his eye, which turned out to be the first aniline dye—specifically, mauveine, sometimes called aniline purple.
* Racemization, by Louis Pasteur. While investigating the properties of sodium ammonium tartrate he was able to separate for the first time the two optical isomers of the salt. His luck was twofold: it is the only racemate salt to have this property, and the room temperature that day was slightly below the point of separation.
* Teflon, by Roy J. Plunkett, who was trying to develop a new gas for refrigeration and got a slick substance instead, which was used first for lubrication of machine parts
* Cyanoacrylate-based Superglue (a.k.a. Krazy Glue) was accidentally twice discovered by Dr. Harry Coover, first when he was developing a clear plastic for gunsights and later, when he was trying to develop a heat-resistant polymer for jet canopies.
* Scotchgard, a 3M brand of products used to protect fabric, furniture, and carpets from stains, was discovered accidentally in 1953 by Patsy Sherman. One of the compounds she was investigating as a rubber material that wouldn't deteriorate when in contact with aircraft fuel spilled onto a tennis shoe and would not wash out; she then considered the spill as a protectant against spills.
* Cellophane, a thin, transparent sheet made of regenerated cellulose, was developed in 1908 by Swiss chemist Jacques Brandenberger, as a material for covering stain-proof tablecloth.
* The chemical element helium. British chemist William Ramsay isolated helium while looking for argon but, after separating nitrogen and oxygen from the gas liberated by sulfuric acid, noticed a bright-yellow spectral line that matched the D3 line observed in the spectrum of the Sun.
* The chemical element Iodine was discovered by Bernard Courtois in 1811, when he was trying to remove residues with strong acid from the bottom of his saltpeter production plant which used seaweed ashes as a prime material.
* Polycarbonates, a kind of clear hard plastic
* The synthetic polymer celluloid was discovered by British chemist and metallurgist Alexander Parkes in 1856, after observing that a solid residue remained after evaporation of the solvent from photographic collodion. Celluloid can be described as the first plastic used for making solid objects (the first ones being billiard balls, substituting for expensive ivory).
* Rayon, the first synthetic silk, was discovered by French chemist Hilaire de Chardonnet, an assistant to Louis Pasteur. He spilled a bottle of collodion and found later that he could draw thin strands from the evaporated viscous liquid.
* The possibility of synthesizing indigo, a natural dye extracted from a plant with the same name, was discovered by a chemist named Sapper who was heating coal tar when he accidentally broke a thermometer whose mercury content acted as a catalyst to produce phthalic anhydride, which could readily be converted into indigo.
* The dye monastral blue was discovered in 1928 in Scotland, when chemist A. G. Dandridge heated a mixture of chemicals at high temperature in a sealed iron container. The iron of the container reacted with the mixture, producing some pigments called phthalocyanines. By substituting copper for iron he produced an even better pigment called 'monastral blue', which became the basis for many new coloring materials for paints, lacquers and printing inks.
* Acesulfame, an artificial sweetener, was discovered accidentally in 1967 by Karl Claus at Hoechst AG.
* Another sweetener, cyclamate, was discovered by graduate student Michael Sveda, when he smoked a cigarette accidentally contaminated with a compound he had recently synthesized.
* Aspartame (NutraSweet) was accidentally discovered by G.D. Searle & Company chemist James M. Schlatter, who was trying to develop a test for an anti-ulcer drug.
* Saccharin was accidentally discovered during research on coal tar derivatives.
* Saran (plastic) was discovered when Ralph Wiley had trouble washing beakers used in development of a dry cleaning product.  It was soon used to make plastic wrap.
* A new blue pigment with almost perfect properties was discovered accidentally by scientists at Oregon State University after heating manganese oxide.
* Froth flotation used to separate ore from gangue in mining industry.
* The Mannich Reaction (Mannich base) was discovered accidentally in 1912 when Carl Mannich treated salicyl antipyrine with hexamethylenetetramine.  He obtained a crystalline product which was eventually characterized as the antipyrine Mannich base trimer. Sources: Mannich Bases: Chemistry and Uses, M. Tramontini and L. Angiolini, Eds., CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1994; Introduction, page vi. (b) Mannich, C.; Krösche, W. "Ueber ein Kondensationsprodukt aus Formaldehyd, Ammoniak und Antipyrin." Archiv der Pharmazie, 1912, 250, 647–667. doi = 10.1002/ardp.19122500151 AdderUser (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chemistry 

message: These examples removed from article (along with laundry-list tag) as excessively long. RJFJR (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inventions 

message: These examples removed from article (along with laundry-list tag) as excessively long. RJFJR (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples in exploration

message: Szerencse means luck in hungarian, but there are no sources of relevance to serendipity. The same is true for Swarna Dvipa. I have removed the remarks from the etymology.
Karmela (talk) 10:39, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Szerencse and Swarna Dvipa 

message: I've added in a section about the influence of the Three Princes of Serendip story through Zadig. Whether this influence exactly connects with the concept of serendipity is perhaps debatable, and I don't mind the sections's removal, especially as it seems to fit better on the The Three Princes of Serendip article. Any thoughts? --Annielogue (talk) 00:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zadig 

message: The following are similar concepts:
* Blessing in Disguise
* List of blessings in disguise
Tabletop (talk) 06:08, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blessing in Disguise 

message: A chemical company lights fireworks in the corridors whenever a new and better, and cheaper way of making an important chemical is discovered.    Tabletop (talk) 06:11, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Plus: how does this habit contribute to the encyclopedic knowledge of serendipity? Lova Falk talk 08:18, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chemical Company Fireworks 

message: The word 'Serendipity' is mostly related to scientific discoveries. And this article don't mention scientific discoveries at all. And also article looks weird.
neo (talk) 18:03, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientific Discoveries 

message: From Arabic سرانديب (sarāndīb), from Persian سراندیپ (sarândip), from Pali Sīhaḷadīpa and Sanskrit Siṃhaladvīpa, meaning island of the Sinhala people; dīpa meaning island in Pali and Sinhala and द्वीप (dvīpa) meaning island in Sanskrit.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.175.64.145 (talk) 17:05, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lion? 

message: === 1 ===
Instead of having the same meaning as random events, serendipity can not be assumed routinely incorrectly as a synonym for a "happy accident" (Ferguson, 1999; Khan, 1999), to find out things without being searching for them (Austin, 2003), or "a pleasant surprise" (Tolson, 2004) ..
Possibly this sentence makes sense in the first language of the editor who wrote it; it is totally baffling to the English speaker. Instead of... can[]not is a weird construction. If it can't be assumed, then there's no need to add "incorrectly", and no English speaker would do so. I have no idea why routinely is there. I'm going to guess at the meaning, and change it accordingly. Koro Neil (talk) 01:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  English 

message: Instead of having the same meaning as random events, serendipity can not be assumed routinely incorrectly as a synonym for a "happy accident" (Ferguson, 1999; Khan, 1999), to find out things without being searching for them (Austin, 2003), or "a pleasant surprise" (Tolson, 2004) ..
Possibly this sentence makes sense in the first language of the editor who wrote it; it is totally baffling to the English speaker. Instead of... can[]not is a weird construction. If it can't be assumed, then there's no need to add "incorrectly", and no English speaker would do so. I have no idea why routinely is there. I'm going to guess at the meaning, and change it accordingly. Koro Neil (talk) 01:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  1 

message: It is often a misunderstood quality for the discovery and innovation. May become a powerful tool in the contribution of innovative insights that lead to the attainment of entrepreneurial visions.
Understand the process of their development and use, allows managers, innovators and researchers as they can use the serendipity as an important contribution to the competitive success of the company.
These two paragraphs seem to be meaningless, are poor English, and add nothing to the article. The editor may need to consult someone with native English skills and a good understanding of the editor's language, and attempt to turn it into something meaningful. Otherwise I will come back and delete them Koro Neil (talk) 02:14, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  2 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Six years have past since this topic was discussed. I want to revisit it.  The article defines the term as "an unplanned, fortunate discovery." The association with "discovery" dates all the way back to Walpole, who is credited with inventing the term. Example in the introduction include the inventions of penicillin, the microwave oven and the Post-it Note. So why is the main picture that of two birds, one of them the intended subject, the other one not. Happy coincidence? Seems like it. Unplanned, fortunate discovery? Not really. I realize the concept is difficult to illustrate. But better no illustration than a confusing one. Barte (talk) 00:18, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There being no counter-arguments, I've removed it. Barte (talk) 22:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture of two birds--part 2 

message: There was a sourced claim in the Etymology section indicating that this word was considered one of the hardest to translate by some British translation company. Checking out the source, two things were immediately apparent: the webpage was a mirror of an old Wikipedia article, and so not an appropriate source, and the article in question spent all its time debunking the claims of the British translation company. That article did not provide a source for the list, either. All in all pretty weak. Not to mention that it’s not clear how a nameless British translation company naming the word as difficult to translate in 2004 satisfies notability. So I removed the claim, and the source. Eniagrom (talk) 00:13, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work. Thanks. Barte (talk) 01:18, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hard to translate claim 

message: the article says that zemblanity is an "unpleasant surprise", but that contradicts the earlier description of it being "making unhappy, unlucky and expected discoveries occurring by design", or in other words "an unpleasant, and unsurprising thing". urban dictionary also seems to say that it is an unpleasant and unsurprising thing, rather than an unpleasant and surprising thing, though that isn't exactly a reliable source  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.22.28.168 (talk) 01:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  The first sentence defining the term as unhappy, unlucky discoveries can be confirmed by other sources.  The second sentence referencing an "unpleasant surprises" is not only inconsistent, but unsourced. On the latter grounds alone, I deleted it. And added a new cite, which speculates on the word's origin, without trying to redefine the term. Barte (talk) 17:24, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  zemblanity definition