Talk:Alchemy/Archive 1

message: Items removed from Talk:Alchemy Jorge Stolfi 03:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

message: Isn't "universal panacea" a tautology? I would have edited it right away but 1) there is a separate (stub) article about it 2) there is no other article about 'panacea' in the meaning of a universal cure and 3) "universal panacea" is mentioned as a goal of alchemy of which I know very little. 83.160.245.58 02:33, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes it is, and I'm going to fix it. 'Pan' means 'all' and 'akeai' means 'to heal', so a 'universal panacea' is a 'universal universal cure'. Protozoid 22:44, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Universal panacea" a tautology? 

message: This article is truly excellent.  We should recruit more students to donate their research papers here.
My only criticism:  it should be noted that the philosopher's stone was real, and has been found, that being bombardment of lead with atomic particles to turn it into gold.  Their methods were primitive, but their goal, if not practical, was at least attainable given some level of technological 'magic'.
:A philosopher's stone is a superheavy element which, when placed by or around a base metal, gradually transforms it into a nobler transition element by fission fragment spallation.  Maybe one can make a natural lightning fusor to make a light radioisotope (intense source would be lithium, funny and apropos that lithos means stone) as the philosopher's stone which can then accomplish the same. :) lysdexia 23:03, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Transmutation

message: TEXT JUNKYARD (To be confirmed and/or cleaned up and/or moved to the appropriate sections/pages)
: Invariably the "alchemist" was summoned to the local lord's court for a presentation.  When none was forthcoming, nasty things happened to the impostor. {This is folklore, not history}-->
: The influence of Paracelsus can still be noticed in modern medical traditions: it is through him, for instance, that the caduceus — originally an alchemical icon — became the symbol of Western medicine. {the caduceus and rod of esculapius pages claim that the two symbols have nothing to do with each other. Which is right?}
:Paracelsus coined the words "alcohol" and "zinc". {aren't they arabic?}
:The Paracelsian reform can be viewd as the last major "ism" to be grafted onto alchemy before its death. {too POV}
:but few realize the importance of this man {Boyle} to modern chemistry. In the early 1600s, alchemy was synonymous with medicine and chemistry.  By Boyle's time, alchemists had disposed of most of the occultist beliefs that once plagued the Art, but still they clung to the hermetical beliefs that had been carried down through the millennia.  Boyle did away with this. ! {POV and rabidly contested by other comments on this page}
:In England Doctor John Dee... In 1570 he wrote the preface to the first English translation of Euclid's works. Dee was not only an alchemist but also an astrologer, mathematician, astronomer, geographer and consultant to Queen Elizabeth I. He is credited with the first usage of the phrase "British Empire" and was a forerunner of the philosophy of "British Idealism". {Details not connected with Alchemy}
Jorge Stolfi 00:51, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Text junkyard

message: Deleted/changed two other dubious passages:
:In the life and writings of John Dee it is possible to see a parallel development to that of Paracelsus, insofar as Dee was also redefining the alchemical and magical traditions by the application of more modern methodology. {I am far from being an expert on Dee, but I have read Fell's biography and many comments about him and his work. I haven't seen anything suggesting that he was any good on alchemy (much less a "parallel to paracelsus"), and his "angelic" contacts through Kelley seem to be as close to "magic" as he would dare to get. Apart from his general scholarly knowledge and perhaps some contributions to astronomy and mathematics, he seems to have been basically an earnest student of occultism who (like many of his time) wasted most of his life trying to make sense of other occultists' nonsense. Is this an unfair picture?}
:Dee's associate Edward Kelley was also an accompished alchemist and author, although some academics consider him a charlatan (even though there is no extant evidence for this). {Kelley claimed to converse with angels (who ordered him and Dee to swap wives) and to be able to turn mercury into gold. If that is not "evidence" that he was a charlatan, then what could be? If we accept that he may indeed have done such things, then we must also accept that he may have been a giant cocroach from Mars wearing an antrophomorphic exoskeleton, whose mission on Earth was to steal our precious lead and swap it with worthless gold...}
Jorge Stolfi 04:34, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Dubious passages about Dee and Kelley

message: I suggest removing all parenthetical citations within the article and creating a References section. I think that is a stylistic standard for Wikipedia, no? --Tothebarricades.tk 20:22, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: User:Baphomet. is damaging Wikipedia: he his trying to label Religious articles as Superstition (from a POV view of positivism, that he calls Science). At the article Reincarnation he just went on to add to category "Superstition" and later on without discussion put a POV msg in the article. Please see the discussion page between both of us Talk:Reincarnation#Superstition.
Through the use of a Culture created by extremism in Science, he is clearly trying to do the job that the Inquisition did in the Middle Ages in a Culture created by extremism in Religion. He is damaging Wikipedia in a subtle invious way! 
: Please see also the Alert message I have created at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#September_4, Thank you! --GalaazV 20:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for your aid dealing with actions from a user against Religious, Spiritual and Esoteric articles 

message: I converted the references to use Wikipedia:Footnote formats.  I also fixed two apparent errors.  There was a citation for a book by Titus Burckhardt, but the text contained a single wiki link to a different Burkhardt which I linked to the Titus book.  There also is a book by Edwardes which had a couple of references, and I changed the many references to "Edwards" to "Edwardes".  (SEWilco 01:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I object to your changes, because the new references section seems hard to follow. The point of giving references is to make things easier, not more difficult, for the reader. What do you see as the benefit of your system? SlimVirgin (talk) 18:43, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The present format of the References section only requires ignoring the "abc" just as one already ignores the preceding bullets.  It has been preferred to put uplinks at the start of citations, leaving the body of the citation available for whatever formats are required.  A number of benefits are described at WP:FOOTNOTE.  Primarily, it is easier to find what source a reference refers to, as demonstrated by the many previous references to a nonexistent "Edwards" source.  Unless, of course, there actually was a major source named "Edwards" whose citation had gotten lost.  (SEWilco 18:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference conversion 

message: it sounds like two relatives tip toeing around the sensitive circumstances of a divorce. where's the informative meaty parts? 68.225.26.210 21:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What's with the overview

message: This talk page was getting too long. I Moved some sections to Talk:Alchemy/Archive1. Jorge Stolfi 03:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archived some sections

message: This article is an unsympathetic, debunking of alchemy from a strictly material, Newtonian perspective of science. Come on, as C.G. Jung observed, any fool can see that the alchemists were on the wrong track as regards scientific enquiry. All of their terminology is to do with exploring the unconscious psyche and the individuation process. What the alchemists groped around for was a language to describe the psyche, and all of their chemical terminology was just a smoke-screen to the uninitiated. We would not even be disputing this point were it not for Jung's study of alchemy, take for example the quotation below
'I have often beheld as a miracle, that artificial resurrection and revivification of Mercury, how being mortified into a thousand shapes, it assumes again its own and returns into its numerical self'.
A perfection quotation  upon how the alchemist perceived the mystery of experimenting with chemicals. (Religio Medici Part 1:48) 
An example of the alchemist experiencing the NUMINOUS in the laboratory rather than any attempting any scientific observation. Try reading the labrinthine texts of Norton, George Ripley or Browne and you will realise that these people were little interested in the laboratory for purely scientific purposes. 
Alchemy remains inter-related to the development not only of science, but also religion, art and philosophy, this article is deciodedly lop-sided in its discussion a a complex subject.   Alchemy is much more a proto-psychology and an  underground protestant symbolic language whose study was  MAN as Jung stresses again and again and again. Read him . The laboratory of the alchemists was the unconscious  and was  concerned with self-knowledge and understanding of the self, chemistry was just an off-shoot. The true alchemists recognised  THEY were the subject of experimentation much more than nature's properties. Read my essay at www.levity.com/alchemy/sir_thomas_browne.http  Sorry but for myself and doubtless for other scholars of alchemythis article really smacks of poorly digested comprehension and as for the statement
'By Boyle's time, alchemists had disposed of most of the occultist beliefs that once plagued?? the Art, but still they clung to the hermetical beliefs?? that had been carried down through the millennia.  Boyle did away with this. 
This article as the above statement amply demonstrates demands either a rewriting or a more authorative scholar to expound upon what is amulti-facted topic embracing NOT ONLY  embryonic scientific development but also psychology and religion . The Norwikian
:While I do agree that we in the modern age are tooquick to dismiss once-truths, I find it amusing that you imply Newton would have dismissed achemy, considering he was a closet alchemist himself.
:Haha yes, you're right, despite Newton being heralded as the founder of modern science by many, he was in fact fascinated with alchemy. However as of 02 June 05 the article does reflect that. All in all this article does appear excellent - I'm currently studying alchemy as part of a History of Science course at Cambridge, and have found little to disagree with.
Take a look at Frances Yates' books on the subject and you will find just how influential Alchemy has actually been on the influence of science. Click on the Ernest Rutherford article on the Wikipedia and you will find our old friend Hermes Trismegistus, supposed author of the Emerald Tablet which began alchemy, on his coat of arms. In fact you can't divide the fact that Newton was an Alchemist from his science. THey are integral. Its we who have misunderstood is brand of mechanistic science. ThePeg 22:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsympathetic debunking

message: Did India have a separate alchemical tradition? I Know that it had an extensive and well-known medical tradition, e.g. Aryuvedic medicine; but did it have a discipline that considered the study of matter transformations in general (i.e. a "proto-chemistry") and/or the philosophical connections betwen matter transmutation and spiritual development (akin to Western hermeticism)?Jorge Stolfi
: Yes. You should particularly look at the Tamil form of "medicine" known as "Siddha", instead of Aryuveda. It is a quack alchemical pseudo-science based on minerals which is aimed at healing. This article has a western systemic bias, and should include quackery from all over the world.  Carl Kenner 07:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alchemical tradition in India?

message: Also, I recall seeing mention of mesopotamian tablets with alchemical contents.  Is there enough such material to make a "Mesompotamian alchemy" worth speaking of? If so, was Mesopotamian alchemy derived from or ancestral to Egyptian   alchemy? Jorge Stolfi 02:04, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Mesompotamian alchemy

message: I removed the following paragraph from the Astrology section:
As Isaac Newton was (indisputably) a well known alchemist of his time period, and astrology and alchemy were (and in some cases still are) so closely linked, it is very plausible that Newton had a very good working knowledge of astrology, or at the very least a basic understanding of astrological methodology as it was related to alchemy. Logically then, one would certainly have to know a good bit about astrology in order to use alchemy effectively, and Newton along with other prominent alchemists definitely knew this. For more informations see Isaac Newton's occult studies.
Did Newton Really practice the occult? This seems to go against what he openly believed.
It's pretty much of a non-sequitor. I added the link to Newton's Occult Studies article to the part of the Overview section where Newton is discussed. PRIIS 22:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call, although that Occult Studies article needs some work. Whilst Newton spent a lot of time working on alchemy he mostly kept his work private - I don't think it is correct to say he was a well known alchemist in his day. It is only recently that his papers have been studied. Although he is known to have read books on astrology, he almost certainly did no work on astrology. Newton was very organised in his research and maintained notebooks for everything he worked on. His library contains no papers suggesting that he worked on astrology. -- Solipsist 00:24, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Newton paragraph 

message: An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Alchemy article:
* Can link base metals: ... the most perfect of substances. By attempting to transmute base metals into gold, they were, in effect, trying to give the univers... (link to section)
* Can link materialism: ...within a new grand design of the universe based on rational materialism.  ... (link to section)
* Can link Western religions: ...ical system, with only superficial connections to the major Western religions.  It is still an open question whether these two strands sh... (link to section)
* Can link solar system: ...dge]].  Traditionally, each of the seven planets in the solar system as known to the ancients was associated with, held dominion... (link to section)
* Can link Arab world: ...ina, the use of gunpowder spread to Japan, the Mongols, the Arab world and Europe. Gunpowder was used by the Mongols against the H... (link to section)
* Can link ancient Egyptian: ...dge, and retained its preeminence even after the decline of ancient Egyptian culture, through most of the Greek and Roman periods. Unfor... (link to section)
* Can link neo-Platonic: ...that sin is merely a consequence of ignorance. Platonic and neo-Platonic theories about universals and the omnipotence of God were a... (link to section)
* Can link the fall of the Roman Empire: ...ristian philosopher who wrote of his beliefs shortly before the fall of the Roman Empire. In essence, he felt that reason and faith could be... (link to section)
* Can link experimental techniques: ...eas were decidedly anti-experimental, yet when Aristotelian experimental techniques were made available to the West they were not shunned.  Sti... (link to section)
* Can link the Middle East: ... Roman Empire, the focus of alchemical development moved to the Middle East. Much more is known about Islamic alchemy because it wa... (link to section)
* Can link Islamic world: ... preserved as Islamic translations. (Burckhardt p. 46)  The Islamic world was a melting pot for alchemy. Platonic and [[Ari... (link to section)
* Can link Christian philosophy: ... Greek and Roman cultures, alchemy was easily accepted into Christian philosophy, and Medieval European alchemists extensively absorbed Isla... (link to section)
* Can link Islamic science: ...Pope Silvester II]], (d. 1003) was among the first to bring Islamic science to Europe from Spain.  Later men such as [[Adelard of B... (link to section)
* Can link rationalism: ...[1109]]) was an Augustinian who believed faith must precede rationalism, as Augustine and most theologians prior to Anselm had beli... (link to section)
* Can link Medieval Europe: ...y]]. (Hollister p. 290-4, 355)  The first true alchemist in Medieval Europe was Roger Bacon.  His work did as much for alchemy as [... (link to section)
* Can link Christian theology: ...in the world of God. Immortality on Earth did not mesh with Christian theology.  (Edwards p. 37-8)... (link to section)
* Can link fourteenth century: ...man could be reunited with God. (Burckhardt p. 149)  In the fourteenth century, these views underwent a major change. [[William of Ockham]... (link to section)
* Can link sixteenth century: ...tute.  One of these men who emerged at the beginning of the sixteenth century was named Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa. This alchemist be... (link to section)
* Can link magic theory: ...luding experimental science, numerology, etc., but he added magic theory, which reinforced the idea of alchemy as an occultist belie... (link to section)
* Can link sleight of hand: ...ishing of con artists who would use chemical tricks and sleight of hand to "demonstrate" the transmutation of common metals into go... (link to section)
* Can link medical doctor: ...1636]]), a Polish alchemist, philosopher and medical doctor, pioneer of chemistry. He assumed that air contains [[oxyge... (link to section)
* Can link blood circulation: ...gradually uncovered the workings of the human body, such as blood circulation (Harvey, 1616), and eventually trace... (link to section)
* Can link organic chemistry: ...Funk|Funk]], et al.). Supported by parallel developments in organic chemistry, the new science easily displaced alchemy from its medical ... (link to section)
* Can link material world: ... to an arcane philosophical system, poorly connected to the material world, it suffered the common fate of other esoteric discipli... (link to section)
* Can link intellectualism: ...ld be interpreted as part of a broader reaction in European intellectualism against the Romantic movement of the preceding century.... (link to section)
* Can link Rex Warner: ...eferences== * Augustine (1963). The Confessions. Trans. Rex Warner. New York: Mentor Books.... (link to section)
* Can link Ethan Allen: ...Encyclopedia of the Occult. London: Rider. * Hitchcock, Ethan Allen (1857). Remarks Upon Alchemy and the  Alchemists. Bosto... (link to section)
* Can link McGraw-Hill: ...edieval Europe: A Short History. 6th ed. Blacklick, Ohio: McGraw-Hill College.... (link to section)
* Can link University of California: ...1976). On the Elements. Trans. Richard Dales. Berkeley: University of California Press.... (link to section)
* Can link English Renaissance: ... Heath and Co.  ==See also==  *The Alchemist (play), an English Renaissance play by Ben Johnson... (link to section)
Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:25, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: A human editor has (conservatively) removed 6 of the bot's suggestions as inappropriate, listing them also at Please don't link to.--Bishonen (talk) 16:13, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest 36 possible wiki links for [[Alchemy]].