Talk:Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell/Archive 2

message: Recommend replacing the current biography infobox in the B-P article with a military infobox.  It seems more appropriate and a more usefull tool in helping organize and providing better context to the B-P article.  Any thoughts or objections?
--Ctatkinson 18:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Change of Article Infobox

message: User:Lima Golf added the POV tag to the Military Career section, but has not yet defined the issues. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If he doesn't define the issues, which I can't deduce any either, the tag can be removed after a day or so. Rlevse 14:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: rm'd. Rlevse 19:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military Career POV 

message: The Dutch lemma on this bloke mentions he was a great admirer of Hitler and Mussolini. Shouldn't that be mentioned here too? (if it is true of course) --Maarten1963 02:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Political views 

message: Hi all, I have taken care of all technical issues with this article, as suggested by peerreviewer script, and various WP guidelines. Now we need to take care of the last things that we ourselves think necessary before we can seriously propose this article for FA. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 08:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Shouldn't there be a wikilink for Scouting for Boys in this section?  Maybe even an image of the cover? I found this one on the B-P article in Spanish: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Portadaescultismoparamuchachos.JPG Ctatkinson 23:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: SfB is linked in the lead and shouldn't be linked again.Rlevse 02:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, CT, nice ideas. Added both ideas. And to keep Randy happy, I deleted several other wikilink so SfB elsewhere in the text: there should indeed only one or two in the whole article. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 19:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Excellent work here Wim. I'll try to help. As founder, it'd be great to have this as FA.Rlevse 10:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked several FAs on writers. Many have a "List of works" or "Bibliography" section, such as Tagore. What do you think? I worked on layout some.Rlevse 01:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last requirements before making it an FA candidate: Finetuning 

message: I really can't believe this section is even in here; hardly worthy of the title "encyclopedic." Considering that no one ever said a peep about it until it was "discovered" very recently, can't we just assume this is really just an attack on the BSA for their stance on homosexuality and omit it? Far from being factual, this is merely historical rumormongering. Darentig 19:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please check the archives (to the right of the contents) for past discussion on this, as well as on :Talk:Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation.  The section needs work, and I have made some comments on the main article talk.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks- this has been irritating me for some time, as you may have noticed.  I must admit to filing the serial numbers off of text in several other WP articles to come up with this, so it is not quite original on my part.  I added the Jeal ref- one should be good for this short section.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This section has been heavily pared down from the three or four paragraphs it used to be.  The main article was forked from this one.  If you check the references, this has been discussed by at least two well regarded authors.  We may not like it, but it is there.  Please see the archived discussions here and in the main article for more information. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexual Orientation 

message: Looking at the mishmash of date formats previously in this article, may I take the opportunity to remind editors of the guidelines found in WP:DATE. While it is true that editors with date preferences set will have date formats automatically presented in their preferred format, most wikipedia users are casual readers without accounts. --Pete 21:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date formats 

message: What's with the ndash cleanup? There used to be a campaign to use them, now we dont't?Rlevse 12:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, see WP:DASHRlevse 13:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ndash

message: PreviewRlevse 13:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Online preview version of Jeal's book on B-P

message: The John Smith link in See also is just stuck in there with no context.  Is there a reference for this?  If so, this should really be placed in both this article and the Jon Smith article.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch. I just took it out.Rlevse 14:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  John Smith 

message: Since this will be the main page article this week, I would like some discussion on the use of flag icons in the infobox, as seen in Frederick Russell Burnham, Francis William Rhodes and elsewhere.  In my opinion, these are not useful and rather distracting.  Any other opinions?  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox flags 

message: What is with the Mein Kampf reference- this is just stuck in here with no context.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I rv'd it twice and then a third person modified it and put it back in. The pertinent part is on pp 555-552 of the online preview of the Jeal book, see link on this talk page. You are correct, this needs tied into context or removed. Rlevse 17:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Since this has not been placed into context, I am redacting it.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mein Kampf 

message: User:Gadget850 barely beat me to it, but Stephe is correct, it is on page 13 of the Jeal book, see here. Rlevse 00:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stephe is correct

message: Did BP really use a grocer's apostrophe in "Aids to Scouting for NCO's and Men"? I would hope not...... Epeeist smudge 06:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe it was formerly common to use an apostrophe to indicate the plural of an acronym (there are missing letters after all).  Compare also with the usage 1980's, CD's etc. which are still sometimes seen, although it's probably more common now to wrtie 1980s, CDs etc..  David Underdown 07:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yikes No! No! The examples you give are blatant examples of the Grocer's Apostrophe.  Depsite frequent use, they were never correct at the time.  An acronym becomes a word on its own and there are no missing letters to think about before the S is added (if we were considering the missing letters in the acronym we would put an apostrophe after every letter!). The actual Book Cover uses: N.-C.Os and Men  which is correctly taken from Non-Commsisoned Officers.  Modern useage in Commonwealth English would be more often simply NCOs, and in American English more often N.C.O.s although either is acceptable in both varieties of English. Dainamo 12:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Grocer's Apostrophe?

message: This sentence, "It should be noted that the controversy surrounding this has more to do with the narrower definitions of what is acceptable behaviour for heterosexual men in the twenty first century, than anything to do with Baden-Powell's actual words and deeds during his life," removed from the Sexuality section of the article, begs the question of his sexual orientation or inclination. It also elides the fact that his behavior was also beyond the bounds of what is acceptable for a homosexual man in the twenty first century, as well as the fact that the controversy is especially acute due to his expressed interest in photographs of naked boys, in light of his position as founder of Scouting. Haiduc 10:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Text about his putative heterosexuality 

message: As best I see, Family life was renamed to Later life simply so the fascism paragraph could be moved.  The problem is that the section was crafted to cover his family- from his marriage in 1912 to his death in 1941.   The only two parts that are not family relate are the fascism paragraph and his peerage.
Suggest:
*Move the peerage material to Scouting Movement and emphasize why he was elevated.
*Move the fascism stuff to a new section and deal with it there.
*Rename it back to Family life
--Gadget850 ( Ed) 10:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about "Later life and family"? It seemed a bit funny to include death in "Family life". Haiduc 11:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Later life 

message: For the last year I had been a proponent of keeping this section according to the Wikipedia:Summary style guidelines.  With the myriad of changes to Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation, this has been a daunting task- see my comments on that talk page.  For much of this year, that article did not even have a lead-in, and a *major* reversion was just applied.  Until recently, this article had a comment in the section to alert editors of Summary Style- that did not work.  The orientation article had a template on the talk page- that did not work.  The current lead-in on the orientation article is terrible- no casual reader can get much sense of the rest of the article; it simply does not conform to Wikipedia:Lead section.
Until such a time as the Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation conforms to the lead-in guidelines and is stable, I must recommend that we ignore the Summary Style guidelines.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's also realize that as this is by far the most heavily edited paragraph in B-P's main article, this one, and given the topic of the material, no matter what we do it will continually be edited and unstable.Rlevse 18:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sexuality  /  Summary Style 

message: User:B/User:BigDTon commons, gives us this 
Looks good.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This one is even better. User:B is checking on license status. Rlevse 09:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Retouched and cropped

message: When I was in the Army, I was told "attention to detail will save your life in combat." In the article it is remarked: "The son succeeded his father in 1941 to the Baden-Powell Baronetcy and the title of Baron Baden-Powell."  The term "baronetcy" refers to the rank or dignity of a baronet, which is a hereditary knight and not a peer. The correct term for the rank or dignity of a baron is "barony." See Randon House/Wester's Unabridged Dictionary (2nd ed.).
James McConville
:Been there, done that.  Issue fixed.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He did. Being given (or inheriting) an honour (peerage, baronetcy, or whatever) doesn't eliminate any previous lower honours, the lower ones just cease to be obvious. Similarly, if he'd been further honoured and created Viscount Baden-Powell, he would still also have been Baron Baden-Powell (and a Baronet), he just wouldn't have used those titles. It may seem an odd distinction (no longer existing vs subsumed by a higher title) but it can be crucial, especially when later holders are given higher titles: if the current Baron Baden-Powell were created a Viscount, for instance, and died (as seems likely) without an heir, his brother would not succeed to the Viscountcy, but would still succeed to the Barony and Baronetcy, the former of which would become visible again, with no higher title to cover it up. Having a Baronetcy, incidentally, does have some small significance, even for a Baron: it allows the use of a Baronet's badge on coats of arms, and entry onto the Roll of the Baronetage. Proteus (Talk) 21:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah!  Thanks.  Peerage is not something most of us Americans have any knowledge of, other than imported British TV.  Looks like it works like our Cub Scout ranks.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barony v. Baronetcy 

message: A synopsis of the changes from the TFA:
*Medals wikilinked
*Silver Wolf added to medals list
*11 Stanhope Terrace added as current address of birthplace
*territory spelled correctly
*Field marshal cite added (needs to be moved to EOS)
*Section title Family life change to Later life (not correct though)
*Nazi section in Later life section
*Marks added to IPA pronunciation
*Removal of Eccles cake
*N.-C.Os
*What Scouts Can Do: More Yarns ref
*Statue image caption grammar
*Silver Wolf lineage
--Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work Gadget, but the field marshall cite should stay where it is as it specifically discusses the field marshall issue. Both cites in that para talk about his resignation. I'd leave it as is. As for the the Later life section, I not so sure that is where the fascism data should be. Put it where you like and rename section as you see fit. Whatever you decide is okay with me. Rlevse 02:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting time. I kept an eye on it yesterday. I think the Field Marshall bit should be deleted. The reference merely states that "The baton of Field Marshal was within his grasp". Perhaps it was but I think it is highly unlikely. He had several steps to go first in the various General ranks. Basically the only way he could have become Field Marshall is if he had served on the Western Front in WWI and done well. With his experience in India and Africa I doubt that he would have been a good General on the Western Front, although I guess it is possible. It certainly needed a General with fresh idea. That is all by and by - the suggestion of Field Marshall is simply not supported by sources. --Bduke 03:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If he'd been CIGS he would have likely been promoted to field marshal. I do tend to agree that it was by no means certain that he'd reach that rank, though. Leithp 06:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TFA updates 

message: The article does not have any mention of Baden Powel’s opposition to English politics and constant fighting.  I am not fully aware of the extent of Baden Powell’s feelings on the matter, but it is an important issue to be addressed.  To include this in the article, some sources need to be found that are available to the readers of the document.  I know of one guy, in the Atlanta Area Council, who shared this in his Wood badge presentation as part of his patrol’s ticket service requirements.  They are working closely with Kenya to better maintain Baden Powell’s grave, house, and they are funding (part or whole, I’m not sure) the museum being constructed near Powell’s grave.   I feel he is a credible source, and I will dig up more on him, but an available online source would be great if anyone can find a credible site.
Law freak 03:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opposition to English Expansionism and War 

message: *Baden-Powell statue on Poole Quay to celebrate the centenary of the first ever Scout camp on Brownsea Island
This link is basically information that a statue *will* be built and an appeal for donations.  I've searched and cannot find any reference that it was actually built and emplaced.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I made an inquiry to the appeal, with no results.  I am redacting this until some verification can be made. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lord Baden-Powell Sculpture on Poole Quay 

message: The latest edits by User:77.101.75.15  are a bit perturbing. diff  The change of "natives" to "Africans" is not particularly helpful— The white colonists of Cape Colony, the Transvaal, Natal and the Orange Free State could have considered themselves to be African for all I know.  It would be better if we referred to them by tribe as we do the Zulu, but the refugee camp was a mix.  Pakenham's analysis has been pretty much deprecated by Jeal in this instance.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits by 77.101.75.15  

message: There's a disambiguation page at Baden Powell. Why? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation page?