Talk:United Submitters International

message: I've been told that the Wiki software doesn't let us use apostrophes or special characters in article titles. Hence the Qur'an article is entitled Quran. However, there's no prohibition on using a more exact transliteration in the body of the article. 
It's really a vexing problem. There are a great many languages that require special characters for an exact transliteration -- but many readers would know only the shortcut transliterations without special characters. So if we required them to type in the special characters, they wouldn't, and it would seem to them that Wikipedia doesn't have an article on the subject. 
My own thought is that we ought to be able to use the special characters in article titles, but that we should routinely have redirects for the shortcut versions. This would be a BIG project, however, both for the coding, fixing article titles, fixing all the links, and setting up redirects. So we just muddle along. Zora 21:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, it's not important to transliterate commonplace words, they should be Anglicised properly. No single word in English has apostrophes in the middle, nor accents or anything like that. Again, it's only my opinion, but I think we should only ever use 'Quran' in plain English. Abd r Raheem al Haq (talk) 19:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Qur'an - Quran problem 

message: Daviadaitken, can you explain to me why you removed the beliefs listing at the bottom? I can entertain the idea that it could benefit from being trimmed and organised, but not removed entirely. Please discuss that sort of change here before you do it, if you would. -Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy) 07:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of beliefs 

message: I'm not qualified to offer much information on this page, as per my ignorance of the subject matter. Is anybody else here able to confirm or deny what User:Davidaitken has been stating? -Tim Rhymeless  (Er...let's shimmy) 00:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further on beliefs 

message: Peace,
The USI are under "Related Faiths," the Rashad Khalifa talk page has established that we are not a sect, nor do we like being called that. If you revert the page again, God willing, I'll be forced to seek investigation into this matter.
::Please sign your comments with four tildes, like this... ~~~~. 
::Actually I thought we established quite clear that USI is Islamic, but due to a play on words they prefer not to be called Islamic. Khalifa was a revivalist and tried to return to the "pure" form of Islam, and you use the translation of "submission" instead of the Arabic "Islam". All this is a game you're playing, and for all intents and purposes, the USI are under the umbrella of Islam. Regardless of what you want to be called, anybody would categorize you as a sect of Islam. Cuñado  - Talk 19:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a game at all. I leave the judgment of this matter to God, to whom we are all accountable, to whom we will all return. Davidaitken 20:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait Cunado, is it you who establish whether the USI is Islamic or not?? Really, by what standards do you judge? List me your invented requirements which makes a belief system Islamic or not. Is it because the USI believe in Muhammad as a messenger of GOD? Because the Bahais also believe in him, but they don't call themselves Muslims. Is it because the USI uses the Koran as its holy scripture as Muslims do? Well, the Druze also refer to the Koran as their holy scripture, but they don't call themselves Muslims. Is it because the USI pray similarly to Muslims? Well, the Samaritan prayer is almost identical to the way Muslims pray, but the Samaritans don't call themselves Muslims. So please, enlighten me about this standard requirement that you've invented, I want to hear it. Go and try to tell the Montenegrins that they're actually Serbs, because their language and culture are almost identical to the Serbian culture. Or tell the Messianics that they're not Jewish, because they believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Can't you surpress your ego a little bit and let the people classify themselves the way they want to be classified? Or do you think your opinion is more worthy than the opinion of those people who actually have chosen 'Submission' as their path in life. FYI, most Muslims think that their religion is a name which has no meaning and submit to their desires rather than GOD. On the other hand, the way of life of submitting oneself to GOD (called Islam in the Arabic Koran) is what the prophets and messengers of GOD  preached and the way they themselves lived their lives (including Rashad Khalifa). In this way, Islam has two meanings. The first one is a very popular meaning, which is a religious community which makes up 1/5 of the world's population. While the second meaning is to take GOD as the sole diety in one's life and denounce all other dieties other than HIM. However, unfortunately the latter meaning is unheard off and unthought off by most other Muslims. Rashad Khalifa clearly expressed these two meanings of the word in his book of translation of the Koran: "Henceforth, there is only one religion acceptable to God - Submission. Anyone who submits to God and devotes the worship to God ALONE is a "Submitter." Thus, one may be a Jewish Submitter, a Christian Submitter, a Buddhist Submitter, a Hindu Submitter, or a Muslim Submitter." (In the introduction of his translation, source: http://rashadkhalifa.org/proclamation.html) "Islam is NOT a name; it is a description of one's total submission and devotion to God ALONE, without idolizing Jesus, Mary, Muhammad, or the saints. Anyone who meets this criterion is a "Muslim" (Submitter). Therefore, one may be a Muslim Jew, a Muslim Christian, a Muslim Hindu, a Muslim Buddhist, or Muslim Muslim." (In the second appendix of his translation of the Koran, source: http://www.submission.org/quran/app2.html) So as you can see, there are two meanings of the word 'Islam'. You, Conado, are referring to the first meaning of this word. However, Rashad Khalifa was teaching and preaching the second unpopular meaning of the word. So while you can assert that Rashad Khalifa and his followers are only playing a game with words, we can also assert that you are ignorant of the word islam/submission.114.125.100.116 (talk) 18:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamic Sects 

message: Peace be with you all,
Even the most ardent opponents who have an ounce of sincerity should reflect upon this.
Fact No.1
God's Messenger of the Covenant
The Quran prophesies the advent of God's Messenger of the Covenant.
According to Pickthall's translation:
When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said, Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden in this? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear witness. I will bear witness with you [3:81]
Fact No.2
Anyone who rejects this Quranic fact is no longer a Muslim [3:82-85].
Fact No.3
Muhammad One of the Prophets
Recall that we made the covenant with the prophets, including you (Muhammad), and Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus son of Mary. We made a solemn covenant with them. [33:7]
Obviously, God's Messenger of the Covenant is not Muhammad; he comes after all the prophets, including Muhammad.
Who is this Messenger?
If you can accept a messenger after Muhammad - as you must, if you believe the Quran - who could he be? The Quran states in 3:81 that this messenger will confirm the Scripture. Confirmation does not mean acknowledgement since anybody can acknowledge that the Quran is from God. Confirmation therefore means proving. And the only possible scientific proof is the perfect and unchallengeable Mathematical code revealed through Rashad Khalifa , .
Fact No.4
The Insincere Divinely Forbidden
Verses 17:45, 18:57 & 56:79 unequivocally state that insincere researchers are forbidden access to the Quran; they cannot understand it. Only the sincere seekers are permitted access to the Quran (41:44). Rashad Khalifa has confirmed the Quran for the first time in history with physical mathematical evidence. According to the Quran, he could not possibly be an imposter who revealed the Quran's greatest secret against God's will.
Fact No.5
Rashad Khalifa Meets All Criteria
(1) He has provided a plethora of irrefutable proofs  , (2) he advocates the worship of God alone     , and (3) he never made any money from this, not a single dollar or dinar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Davidaitken (talk • contribs) 
:David, Wikipedia is not a message board, discussion booth, or theological research arena. If you aren't discussing the content of an article, then you will be ignored. I only read your comments to see if you had anything relevant to the article. I think your logic is sloppy and needs work. But neither you or I will change our minds arguing on a talk page, so please give up your preaching. Cuñado  - Talk 06:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there not a policy on deleting these messy, half-backed, theology lectures? Abd r Raheem al Haq (talk) 22:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Time to Reflect 

message: Peace be with you all,
Submitters are people from all over the world with different backgrounds, educational levels, different origins and races who follow the religion of Abraham as decreed by God for them in the Quran:
[2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."
[42:13] He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite them to do. GOD redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself only those who totally submit.
Submitters believe, recognize and uphold God’s words in the Quran when He points out that it doesn't matter what people call their religion, as long as they fulfill the following three criteria:
[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and
(2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.''
Submitters uphold the true teachings of Submission (Islam in Arabic). They strive to peacefully spread the truth about the Quranic message. Their hope is to bring believers and worshippers of God alone closer together, regardless of what they call their faiths.
Submitters are against oppression (2:217), and for the freedom of religion and peace (2:256).
The "Islamic" World
The so-called Islamic word DOES NOT follow the true Islam as decreed by God in the Quran. They follow man-made rules and books containing falsehood, contradictions and a lot of nonsense.
It is in these fabrications, which have been falsely attributed to the Prophet Muhammad, that evil people and terrorists who hijacked the beautiful religion of Islam find support for their tyrannical and unjust laws. Because people insist upon disregarding God’s word and following blindly their scholars and religious leaders, the so-called Islamic world will remain in its sad state where they can't get along with one another; they are the worst in oppression and the least in development, etc.
Some Muslims are very quick with condemning the Christians and the Jews to Hell for not accepting the Quran as the word of God. What they need to think about first however, is how many "Muslims" are there who truly believe in and abide by the Quran after reading it for themselves, as God commands (17:36)? What percent of those who say "I'm a Muslim" have actually read the Quran for themselves (from cover to cover) in a language they understand? How many are simply quoting their parents, their imams, or their friends, without having any real knowledge from the Quran? How many are actually quoting Quran at all, and not other sources?
Should we actually be surprised that some people choose to shun Islam when there are "Muslims" killing innocent people while shouting Allahu Akbar (God is Greatest) on our TV screens? Can we blame them for not running to the library in excitement to pick up a Quran – the book these "people of God" claim to uphold and represent?
Should we really be surprised at how some people view Islam when there are so-called Islamic governments in this world, claiming to represent the Quran while shooting journalists to death because they don't print the "right" things, and punishing or killing people for having the "wrong" opinions and/or life-styles?
As it turns out, the majority of those who call themselves Muslim today are completely ignorant when it comes to the Quranic message. Instead they follow traditions passed on to them from their parents, friends, their imams, or all their books and pamphlets besides the Quran. Their information is based on Hadith and Sunna, which are innovations attributed to the Prophet Muhammad. They consist of stories about the prophet gathered over eight generations, and written down some 200 years after his death. What is astounding is that these stories directly contradict most of the Quranic teachings. This explains why many traditionalists become very upset when someone cites the Quran to them, since it contradicts what they were taught to believe.
One God, One Religion
God teaches us in the Quran that being a Muslim is not something we become by referring to ourselves as such, or by even accepting Islam as it is known to the world today. This sounds confusing at first, and it needs further explanation. God teaches us in the Quran that we are Muslims (Submitters) in His eyes when we believe in Him, believe in the Last Day, and lead a righteous life. This is regardless of what we call ourselves.
Leading a righteous life means obeying the information that God has given to each of us. Those who were given the Bible, and who have not familiarized themselves with the Quran are expected to uphold God's commandments accordingly. This is why we read in the Quran about the righteous Jews and Christians:
[5:44] We have sent down the Torah, containing guidance and light. Ruling in accordance with it were the Jewish prophets, as well as the rabbis and the priests, as dictated to them in GOD’s scripture, and as witnessed by them. Therefore, do not reverence human beings; you shall reverence Me instead. And do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations are the disbelievers.
[7:159] Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.
[5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.
Most people who call themselves Muslim today are very confused about these Quranic facts, and actually harbor beliefs which contradict these verses. This is why many rush to harsh judgment and hate towards people of other faiths, instead of seeking all ways and means towards being kind and offering peace, as God commands us to in the Quran in so many verses (16:125, 4:90; 4:94; 114; 8:61; 9:6).
The religion of Islam (Submission) is not anywhere near what people have been taught. In fact it is a very easy religion to practice: One that decrees total religious freedom for all, one that brings ease after difficulty, not the other way around.
The truth is very simple to follow, has full support in the Quran, makes all the sense in the world, and makes people happy. The traditions and innovations on the other hand are difficult to follow, contradict the Quran, don't make any sense, and make people miserable (5:16; 10:64; 92:7).
God teaches us to seek the truth. He wants us to verify with our own God-given senses the practices we accept and attribute to God.
Most of us were often taught to follow our parents, and not question the religious clergy, but this is not at all the behavior that God wishes for His worshippers. His worshippers are intelligent, they research and study, and then they follow their sincere convictions (3:7; 39:18; 17:36).
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
[39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then FOLLOW THE BEST. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
God teaches us that we can only be a Submitter if we worship Him alone. Worshipping Him alone means not associating anything with Him, devoting all of our worship to Him alone.
[7:181] Among our creations, there are those who guide with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.
[12:108] Say, "This is my path: I invite to GOD, on the basis of a clear proof, and so do those who follow me. GOD be glorified. I am not an idol worshiper."
[16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.
[3:104] Let there be a community of you who invite to what is good, advocate righteousness, and forbid evil. These are the winners.—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Davidaitken (talk • contribs) 
:::Once again David, please stop using the talk page as a promotional message board. Nobody reads this except editors who are discussing the page content. Cuñado  - Talk 06:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Submitters and the "Islamic" World 

message: David, you seem very familiar with the subject. The article is missing any mention of history, or some kind of chronology of events on how the movement/religion began. What year did Khalifa declare himself publicly? How did the movement spread? who are some important individuals in its development? How are they organized today? These need to be referenced of course. If anybody has written a book about the Submitters, even if it is from a Submitter, then that would be a good place to start. Cuñado  - Talk 06:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had added some references to Martin Gardner and others but they seem to have been deleted, except for a disingenuous quote where Gardner calls the late Khalifa's numerical diddling "ingenious."  That was pejorative, not praiseworthy.  All the cult nonsense should probably be blanked from the talk pages, or at least moved to an archive so talk about the editing of the article can move forward.  Шизомби (talk) 02:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Though it's offensive and should be handled properly, the USI are a bit of a cult. They follow a leader that they believe was appointed by God Almighty, the Messenger of the Covenant, who 'refined' a Scripture, who 'discovered' miracles, and who taught them numerology. David, you can't have your cake and eat it mate. Abd r Raheem al Haq (talk) 22:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  history/background 

message: I removed the statement that the number 19 represents the oneness of God's signature or "wahd" which means 19. Perhaps someone would like to clarify it and repost it. "Wahd" in Arabic, means "1". The number 19 in Arabic (and my transliteration to English may be off) is "tisashara". Definately not wahd, and wahd definately does not mean 19.Mk5384 (talk) 03:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wahd 

message: I suggest having a USI page that redirects here, but entitle this article Submitters. It would make a lot more sense to do it this way in my opinion. Abd r Raheem al Haq (talk) 02:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest Title be Changed to Submitters 

message: Is it just me, or is there something very odd about the Sources/References in this article? - ie there aren't any!!  Literally, despite the little bracketted superscript numbers in the article text, there is no References section!  
There are hypertext-links / pointers, to (? some of) the materials listed as Further Reading - but no sources cited as supporting the statements in the article.
The impression I've formed (from this talk-page + the article itself) is that a single contributor has laid out a fair spread of content, with specialised knowledge and insight - but has felt (rightly) that NPOV is not really his ting.  (It's David Aitken I have in mind, of course.)  Instead, he has left it to other contributors to (1) organise the materials he mentions into a proper source-base, and thus achieve an encyclopaedic perspective/NPOV - and then (2) to adjust and correct the content he has provided accordingly, and finally (3) set it up on that base.  And we other contributors have chosen to (0?!) argue with him / his content instead.  And kind of got nowhere by doing that!
I'm far too new a contributor to be able to straighten out Further-Reading materials into Sources and convert the hypertext pointers into References.  For a start, I just know I'd get lost among all the >/'? haberdashery.
But I suspect that a systematic review of the hyperlinks by someone competent, checking out how far they're Source-References, would be a good, practical NPOV way of rescuing this article and its talk-page from all this soap- (and shadow-)boxing.  Anyone fancy a go?
SquisherDa (talk) 04:21, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Been a few months without changes. This article really needs a cleanup so it's informative rather than persuasive. MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:11, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  References??!! 

message: The submissions site seems to have changed their website pages address, so I have removed most of the obsolete links. Addyianson (talk) 04:24, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken references