Talk:Jubilee Plot

message: Was it to this or the Phoenix Park Murders, or both, that Parnell was accused of involvement? Drutt (talk) 02:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I reinstated both the WikiProject Crime and WikiProject British crime because crime of plotting to murder a royal monarch is usually considered Treason. Therefore, I fail to understand why User:SnowFire-Alt removed these banners with the comment that "this event was either politics, republicanism, or terrorism, but I think "crime" is the wrong descriptor here." I disagree; Crime is the best descriptor here. Politics and republicanism are motives for the crime, while the concept of terrorism is an anachronistic modern take on the plot. Besides people were arrested, tried and imprisoned for many years in this case. What the article lacks is a mention of the crimes the perpetrators of the plot were charged with. Even under English law of the time, people did not get arrested and sent to jail just for political reasons, they had to have committed a crime of some sort. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 01:24, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it's a crime in the dictionary sense, but that doesn't mean Wikiproject Crime is the best project to handle it.  Wikiprojects are better when they are focused.  WikiProject Crime is really about "normal" crime; matters like assassinations, treason, and so on are treated and studied very differently.  Neither the Gunpowder Plot nor 20 July plot are in Wikiproject Crime, for example, nor should they be (this is not an invitation to run "fix" those articles).  If anything, it's considered rather insulting by extreme political activists to be considered criminals; very often a government will portray opponents as mere bandits or criminals (lower-case c criminals, as in common evil people, not as in "technically broke the laws"), while the plotters will portray themselves as Robin Hood style upholders of the true law.  I don't think Wikiproject Crime is the right Wikiproject here, despite the fact that technically, laws were broken.  Wikiprojects are more useful when they're focused, and this event was more about politics and less about murder or robbery or the like.  SnowFire (talk) 03:13, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  I haven't had the opportunity to assess either Gunpowder Plot or 20 July plot for WikiProject Crime, yet. I do find it interesting that both are considered within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism and not within the scope of WikiProject Crime, which I would see as having an overlapping scope. But, then no one has put forward the proposal to include them, so far. Nor have I had the opportunity to assess the Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior article, which New Zealand Police treated as a criminal investigation, while politicians called it a terrorist act. There is as grey area between what is crime, what is terrorism and what is a military action and some articles, like those you mention, fall into the scope of multiple WikiProjects, including WikiProject Crime. In the case of this article, the plot was discovered before its execution, with the some of the conspirators being arrested and jailed, so I see WikiProject Crime as being very relevant, while WikiProject Terrorism is, perhaps, less so, because the plot did not succeed. While extreme political activists might feel insulted by being considered criminals, it has been my experience that ordinary people who exhibit criminal behaviour also feel insulted by being treated as a criminal, too, when they are arrested and charged with a criminal offence. I think the reason assassination and treason are often treated and studied very differently from other crimes is due to their rarity, targeted victims and offender motivations. From the point of view of academics, they might overlook the fact that the law has been broken. Meanwhile, the Police, or other investigating authorities, are primarily interested about which part of the criminal law has been broken and demonstrating to judicial authorities that the perpetrators are guilty of those crimes by showing they had the means, motives and opportunities to break the law. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 05:19, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Terrorism is explicitly not part of WikiProject Crime, nor should it before the reasons I described.  Let's back up to first principles here.  WikiProjects are not article categories.  The whole *point* of them is to facilitate collaboration and tracking by interested parties.  The kind of experts, sources, and editors that study politics and political violence are different than the experts, sources, and editors that study more petty crimes, and both of those sets are different from people who cover, say, war crimes or crimes against humanity.  Every topic is a vast spiderweb that *touches* on many topics, but Wikiprojects are better when they are focused.  This wasn't a case of common criminals trying to make a buck, this was a case of insurgents who wanted to strike a blow against the government, for reasons good or ill.  Nobody's contesting that the action is criminal, the question is simply one of proper organisation, and nothing I say is controversial or wrong here.  People really do treat purse-snatchers vs. anti-government zealots vs. evil people with official government backing as different categories, and different sources discuss them.  SnowFire (talk) 06:04, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Crime reinstated