Talk:Nigger/Archive 1

message: oh my God!  What the HELL is this?  What is this doing in the present tense?  Ed, were you trying to sound like some whiny-assed, "oh, we white people are so hard done by," educated good ol' boy? You have managed to reduce several hundred years of serious racism to  "it used to be racist, but now we can't use it because they say so."  How embarassing.  And, by the way, it's use among black (or African-American) people is often pejorative -- it is generally not used in regular conversation, but more often as a preface to an opposing statement, thus implying that the person on the other side of the argument is in some way (and therefore his arguments) less worthy.  Perhaps you might like to re-write this to reflect a very complex subject with a lot more meaning and history than you seem to be willing to credit it with. Ending a sentence with a preposition, JHK 12:49, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
replies: text: JHK -- I do not think Ed Poor wrote the bulk of this article.  I agree with you in essence, though -- I think the real issue is that people who write article should ideally be people who have done some serious research.  Slrubenstein 12:53, 23 Jul 2002 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miscellaneous due to Lack of More Specific Headings (1.0) 

message: From the article:
:" Unfazed, Hagan took the case to the United Nations, where he found a more sympathetic forum. The UN ordered that Toowoomba Council change the name."
This seems dubious to me. How do you "take a case to the United Nations"?  Is there a legal forum there for this? How do they "order" anything? -- Anon. 217.158.210.105 (talk) 09:11 July 3, 2003 (UTC)
:I know where you're coming from: last time I heard the UN is not a court of appeal. The Age had a fairly good report on the subject: . In fact according to that report (which I hadn't read when I wrote that paragraph), the main justification given by the Government for ignoring the UN ruling was precisely this point: that the UN shouldn't interfere with the processes of domestic courts. -- Tim Starling 02:28, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Just reading some more: specifically, a submission was sent to the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which is part fo the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.  contains some interesting comments attributed to Attorney General Daryl Williams: "He added that the committee's views were not binding and said it did not employ rigorous judicial standards." -- Tim Starling 02:41, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hagan / UN / Toowoomba I 

message: This page has gone too far. The whole thing reads like an apologia from white people. I mean to say:
"In South Africa, kaffir is similarly pejorative when it is used to refer to local blacks. In the United Kingdom "Jock" is used for the Scots, "Taffy" for the Welsh, and "Paddy" and "mick" for the Irish, and these terms are considered offensive by many."
The tone of pretended objectivity reeks. "Considered offensive by many" takes the avoidance of subjectivity too far. "Nigger" is "considered offensive by many", as is "coon" and "monkey" and "Paki scum". There comes a point at which we have to say: "This is not a valid alternative viewpoint -- this is something we do not allow."
I think we've reached it.
Mswake 01:19, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you putting your comments at the top of the page instead of at the bottom?  That aside, it is not up to Wikipedia to say what is or is not allowed, but merely to describe. RickK 02:11, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for the top/bottom mistake. The point I was (admittedly rather angrily) trying to make was that we can't avoid making judgments on what's allowed because we can't include everything. Since that's the case I was trying to make the page less controversial. Ironically. Mswake 21:35, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miscellaneous 2.0 

message: [is Wigger a] hoax?
:Not a hoax. Egad, I think Ricki Lake would run out of topics if she wasn't allowed to have occasional "wigger" shows... Of course, our current definition is unnecessarily coy about its etymology: white + nigger = wigger. -- Someone else 05:04, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  from Talk:Wigger 

message: Rodney O. Lain (a Mac columnist who died recently) wrote an article entitled Angry Mac Man: The Mac is the 'Nigger' of the Computer Industry. Since this is interesting to see the use of that vile term for a non-human object, should this be mentioned in the article?
hoshie 14:09, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lain's use of the N-word for non-human objects? 

message: Removed
In the United Kingdom "Jock" is used for the Scots, "Taffy" for the Welsh, and "Paddy" and "mick" for the Irish, and these terms are considered offensive by many. 
True but irrelevant.
After
"Nigger" was famously the name of a Black Labrador belonging to the RAF war-hero Wing Commander Guy Gibson. 
Replaced
However it can be construed as racist to equate a dog with a human being
With
The word was in common use at that time to denote a shade of brown.
The original phrase was perhaps over-sensitive in the context of the time.
And anyway, lots of dogs are given human names; it's the use of a racist name that's offensive.
Andy G 01:12, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  One Editor's Assorted Changes 

message: [Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]
The following 'graph moved more or less at its contributor's request:
=== Moved from Etymology I ===
The specific origin, or unabridged (i.e., complete) (etymology), of the term, "nigger," according to "The New Oxford Unabridged Collegiate Dictionary," can be traced back to the Greek word nekra, or nekros... etc etc. Better look for that 'dictionary,' Wikipedians! You've been hoaxed. The whole opening of this article is spurious, edited in by Anonymous User 209.240.205.63 with a non-existent dictionary. I am deleting it, as it's also tacky.   Wetman 10:04, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The etymology seems bogus. The Greek words for "black" involve the stem melan- (whence melanin and the fourth humour, melan choler), and nekros means "corpse", not "diseased". Also, the Latin niger sounds nothing like the Greek nekros, and my Latin etymological dictionary makes it clear that they aren't connected.   —MIRV (talk) 05:06, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely it comes straightforwardly from the Latin niger via Spanish negro. Adam 05:15, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree, but I can't find any evidence that the Latin niger comes from the Greek nekros, which specifically denotes death and dying. I still think the derivation from the Greek, at least, is bogus.  —MIRV (talk) 05:20, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: Also, the dictionary from which this etymology is supposedly derived seems to be a fake; there are no references on Google, and none of the online booksellers carry it.  —MIRV (talk) 05:30, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do we need to say it comes via French? The French for black is noir. The etymological chain is most likely to be niger - negro - nigra - nigger. There was plenty of contact between Spanish America and the Old South, so I don't see why a French connection is necessary. Adam 05:55, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The word could have come via either language -- there's a French word, nègre, that translates roughly to "nigger" -- so perhaps both should be noted, unless someone has a definitive reference that can decide the question firmly?  —MIRV (talk) 07:41, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: (How did I miss that?) Someone has helpfully quoted the OED on this talk page. That should settle it for now.  —MIRV (talk) 17:37, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology II 

message: The specific origin, or unabridged (i.e., complete) (etymology), of the term, "nigger," according to "The New Oxford Unabridged Collegiate Dictionary," can be traced back to the Greek word nekra, or nekros... etc etc. Better look for that 'dictionary,' Wikipedians! You've been hoaxed. The whole opening of this article is spurious, edited in by Anonymous User 209.240.205.63 with a non-existent dictionary. I am deleting it, as it's also tacky.   Wetman 10:04, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from Etymology I 

message: Has anyone actually checked this highly unlikely derivation from nekros? I will do it soon as I get home and consult my dictionaries. Adam 04:45, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The etymology seems bogus. The Greek words for "black" involve the stem melan- (whence melanin and the fourth humour, melan choler), and nekros means "corpse", not "diseased". Also, the Latin niger sounds nothing like the Greek nekros, and my Latin etymological dictionary makes it clear that they aren't connected.   —MIRV (talk) 05:06, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely it comes straightforwardly from the Latin niger via Spanish negro. Adam 05:15, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I fully agree, but I can't find any evidence that the Latin niger comes from the Greek nekros, which specifically denotes death and dying. I still think the derivation from the Greek, at least, is bogus.  —MIRV (talk) 05:20, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: Also, the dictionary from which this etymology is supposedly derived seems to be a fake; there are no references on Google, and none of the online booksellers carry it.  —MIRV (talk) 05:30, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do we need to say it comes via French? The French for black is noir. The etymological chain is most likely to be niger - negro - nigra - nigger. There was plenty of contact between Spanish America and the Old South, so I don't see why a French connection is necessary. Adam 05:55, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The word could have come via either language -- there's a French word, nègre, that translates roughly to "nigger" -- so perhaps both should be noted, unless someone has a definitive reference that can decide the question firmly?  —MIRV (talk) 07:41, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

text: (How did I miss that?) Someone has helpfully quoted the OED on this talk page. That should settle it for now.  —MIRV (talk) 17:37, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Later (not Necessarily Resulting) Discussion 

message: This article couold use some Slang context, streetwise use, and Rap culture use of the word. JDR 09:31 25 Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)
:Yes, particularly that its rejection has became a part of the cultural wars, and a contradictory one since blacks are allowed to use it, but not whites. Leandrod 14:14, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slang, streetwise, and Rap 

message: I'm of the opinion that recent additions to the first paragraph of Avoiding Offense, regarding similarity to the words "booger" and "teat", are unfounded and don't belong in the article. -- Yath 06:43, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I'd say "tit" would be more offensive than "teat", but yes you're right, this is a cultural term. If anything I'd compare it to, say, calling Asians "yellow-skinned" or Maoris "darkies". So if someone feels similarities still need to be covered, cover those ones. There may be others I'm not aware of, I'm not exactly a fount of knowledge about oppressive slang names... Master Thief Garrett 09:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avoiding Offense 

message: :However, some African Americans regularly use it almost as a term of endearment, as in "What's up my nigger?" (or nigga).
That's rich. good stuff. thanks. I needed that laugh. Kzzl 08:51, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: As strange as it sounds, this is *actually* true! I've talked to blacks who've said that it's OK among themselves. Indeed some of them want their white friends to feel free to talk similarly, but I can imagine the looks of horror from unknowing onlookers... Master Thief Garrett 09:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true, in this case it is black people taking control of the word "nigger", making it their own and regaining power over it. Which is a good thing, well it would be if it weren't such an offensive word still JayKeaton 16:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I love this part 

message: (Excuse my poor English, it's not my natural language)
I don't agree with the ending of the sentence: "Nigger is almost always pejorative when used by non-blacks or those without dark skin, particularly white Europeans" (under "Modern meanings").
"White Europeans" there refers doubtless to English-speaking (white) Europeans. This reduces it scope to British and perhaps Irish people.
I do not deny that, when "white Europeans" use the word nigger, it may be very often in a pejorative way. It's only that saying Europeans instead of British and Irish sounds like it is a commonly used word among Europeans.
Actually, a great majority of Europeans do not use the word nigger in a pejorative way, since we do not use it at all. In the same way, we do not speak English among us.
I would really like to see this sentence reworded. It's somewhat offending to see it as it is.
--Euyyn 11:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe "White Europeans" was meant to specify ethnicity/origin, not current habitaiton. Just as people in the States sometimes avoid the colloquially common "black" in writing (preferring African American), they also substitute "European" or "European American" for "white." In this case "white European" is a bit awkward, but not, I believe, intended as you've interpreted. My inclination would be to change it to "white" or "caucasion", since it really refers to race, but if others have strong objections or can point to a style-guide recommendation on race, then I'd follow their lead. Tom 20:47, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed that part of the sentence, it was patent nonsense. I have seen Asians use the term, Mexicans, Pakistani’s, etc..., and it was at least as offensive (if not more so) to blacks than when some Euro-American wigger uses it. It’s all about context. A black person can offend another black person by using the word, if they say it right, and mean it in a certain way. I say the word around black people in context (telling a story about those Mexicans or the Pakistani guy using it) w/o offending them at all. The problem, as I see it, is PCBS clouding the judgment of ivory tower intellectuals who have no idea how the term is "nigger" is actually used. There are alot of ethnic slurs, and there is nothing special about this one. Sam [Spade] 21:29, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure how the "Ivory tower intellectuals" are involved here -- I'd prefer to avoid the anti-PC smokescreen and look at the issue at hand. I don't think it's "patent nonsense" to say that "nigger" is more offensive when used by whites in the U.S. than by another minority group. There first reason this might be is that whites are the ones who enslaved Africans in America and created the racist ideology which the slur is a remnant of -- so it makes sense that the word would be more offensive when used by whites than by others (though of course the word can be offensive when used by anyone, as you point out here and as the article already made clear). Tom 14:11, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It's racist to say that its more offensive for someone to use the word nigger based solely on the color of their skin.  You can't say its more offensive for caucasoids to say niggers than it is for mongoloids or negroids without being a racist. I am changing this sentence as it is possible for it to be used pejoratively by negroids.  There is such thing as self-hate and much literature documents this.  The word nigger being used as an insult be people of mixed negroid-caucasoid descent to make themselves feel superior, and used by negroids themselves referring to themselves detailing the level of pervasiveness that the racial ideology penetrated. - Joe 65.1.71.89 (talk) 03:18, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is most definitely NOT racist to say that the word is more offensive when said by a non-Black American.  At best, the word is even becoming more and more antiquated and controversial in the Black community.  Outside of its historical use, or to put the word into some type of historical context, what other reason would a non-Black American have to use the word?  I find that many are simply angry that people ruined the word in the past, for which you only have those people to blame.  Sorry, but this is not the first, nor will it be the last, taboo word that will eventually die like many other antiquated terms.  It is my opinion that it is great to see groups taking back words meant to mentally harm and demean them, changing them, and then finally giving them their proper burial in the language graveyards.  To wrap it all up, again, it is completely relevant to say that when the word is used against a Black American by a non-Black American, it has a lot more negative baggage attached to it rather you choose to accept that fact or not. - Critical Thinker 67.172.95.197 (talk) 09:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  False generalization