Talk:Mechanised Infantry Brigade Iron Wolf

message: I just found out that on official website info is given in English and in Lithuanian:
http://www.kam.lt/index.php/en/34558/
http://www.kam.lt/index.php/lt/35641/
Andrius 09:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The info I used when originally writing the article is outdated. More comprehensive inbfo can be found on the link above. Peter Vasiljev 20:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outdated 

message: The previously added information about the origin and other uses of the name Iron Wolf is entirely unverified, and much of it is less relevant than the verified fact that the name was previously used by Iron Wolf (Lithuania), the fascist paramilitary guard of Augustinas Voldemaras (The first Prime Minister of Lithuania, godfather of future President Valdas Adamkus). I find it difficult to see this as irrelevant or useless information.
Spitfire3000 (talk) 23:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please find a reference that those two are related in any shape or form, otherwise it's pure original research. The etymology section explains the original symbolism of "Iron Wolf". It is taken from a popular medieval legend and is used by both groups. You can find the legend in multiple places, including here, here, here, etc. Renata (talk) 01:21, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Renata I am fully aware of the legend. I am not disputing the existence of the legend or its influence on the naming of organisations in Lithuania (we should cite the best sources of the legend in the etymology section, i agree). But, my proposal is about balancing the inconsequential "used by sports teams" fact with the "used by highly significant political movement" fact. The fact that Voldemaras chose "Iron Wolf" as the name of his organisation supports the etymology of the word as relating historically to Lithuanian border defence, national pride and sovereignty. You request a "a reference that those two are related in any shape or form" - the shape and form are obvious - the name "Iron Wolf" has been applied to both the paramilitary guard of a significant previous Prime Minister, and a brigade of the contemporary Republic's army. Are you suggesting that unreferenced mentionings of unnamed sports teams are more relevant and "related in shape or form" than the fact that at two key stages of Lithuania's development her leaders chose the Iron Wolf as a mascot for armed organs of the state? Of course, we should not allow the inference here that the modern state is fascist, and that is not what I intend. However, if we are to discuss the use of the Iron Wolf name in relation to Lithuanian sovereignty, I find it mandatory to mention the use of the mascot by Voldemaras, a highly significant figure in the history of Lithuanian sovereignty. We should of course be careful not to imply that all uses of the mascot are inherently fascist, because they are not. However, equally, we cannot ignore the use of the mascot by such a significant and relevant organisation. A researcher arriving at this article would get a highly imbalanced view of the history of the use of the name Iron Wolf without this inclusion. It is important not to use the currently low level of fascism in the Lithuanian government to justify airbrushing of the history of preceding administrations. Spitfire3000 (talk) 11:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Pre-war "Iron Wolf" was not "highly significant" and it was banned & marginalized after Voldemaras' removal from power. There is no proof, other than unverified conjuncture, that Voldemaras' "Iron Wolf" had any influence on naming the modern brigade. These kind of coincidences need to be handled carefully, especially when one has possible negative and libelous connotations. Please cite a reference that the modern brigade was named after the pre-war force, otherwise it's just wild speculation. Renata (talk) 01:33, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: But there is no claim here that Voldemaras' "Iron Wolf" had any influence on naming the modern brigade! your logic is flawed. Voldemaras is simply provided as a highly relevant case of the Iron Wolf legend being used in connection with national defence, by organs of the state. Voldemaras is more relevant to the modern army than the Scout Associaton or unnamed sports teams (to which you have no objection?). The fact that Smetona quit Iron Wolf and suppressed it is totally irrelevant to the etymology. I repeat, there is no implication that Voldemaras' Iron Wolf influenced the naming of the modern brigade. This is simply the etymology section, and any justification for the modern state using the name would be incomplete without mentioning the precedent set by Voldemaras. It's not a "coincidence" and it didn't happen at random. Voldemaras AND the modern brigade chose that name for the same reason - it represents national defence. Are we to present the reader with no context, balance or backup for this choice? I know it's not pretty, but it's a verifiable fact, and I can't think of a more prominent use of the Iron Wolf legend by the Lithuanian state previous to the most recent era of independence.Spitfire3000 (talk) 20:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

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