Talk:Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior

message: The IAEA tests found no evidence for increased rates of cancer that could not be attributable to other lifestyle changes in the area. I'm removing the paragraph about justification for Greenpeace's claims. Enough with the tired New Zealand anti-nuclear crusade. Let's present some facts for a change.
Iamaelephant 09:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Effects of nuclear testing on Muroroa

message: Thanks for the advice about how to make myself more than a number.  I've ammended the offending scentence to the some what more cumbersome but accurate; "An unintended result was a photographer drowned on the sinking ship; two of the French agents were subsequently arrested by the New Zealand police and charged with murder", Is that okay?, (& yes I know they effectively plea bargined guilty to manslaughter just befoer the trail began :-).
: Sunds very reasonable, and if I might add, I don't see why the bargain plea should not belong in the article as well. Rama 06:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Marfart and Prieur were originally cahrged with arson, conspiring to commit arson and murder. They eventually pled guilty to manslaughter and arson. See this rather good Police page on the bombings. http://www.police.govt.nz/operation/wharf/ It also has photos of the Ouvea crew.Lisiate 03:22, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thanks 

message: The sinking of the Rainbow Warrior was not the first French naval victory in 200 years - The Vichy government bet up the a few small boats of the Thai navy in the Battle of Koh Chang, 1941.
: You might want to read Battle of Dakar for what happens when largely superior British forces attack an anchored French fleet, but not an unsuspecting one like in Oran. Rama 08:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was an amphbious landing with Navel support. Its a stretch to call it a navel victory as , although ships were involced, it was never a true navel action.Slatersteven (talk) 12:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: French naval Victories

message: the term 'dive wreck', used to describe the final disposition of the Rainbow Warrior, could/should link to artificial reef:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_reef#Notable_artificial_reefs
that's what an ex-diver thinks, anyhow.
71.112.156.5 05:22, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "dive wreck" link 

message: Three other agents, Chief Petty Officer Roland Verge, Petty Officer Bartelo and Petty Officer Gérard Andries, who sailed to New Zealand onboard the yacht Ouvéa, were also captured, but had to be released as New Zealand law did not allow them to be held for sufficient time until the results of forensic tests came back. Knowing the tests would show they had transported the bombs to New Zealand, the crew rendezvoused with the French submarine Rubis and sank the Ouvéa. <They were never punished.>
They were never charged there for couldn't be "punished" but my understanding of NZ law is... um non-existant, so if they were proven guilty then I can understand the statement, but until then I don't believe the statement is needed. Drew1369 18:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (Hmmm, on the other hand, I am not under the impression that the arbitrary detention provisions are targetted at members of allied intelligence services scoring hits on pacifist organisations. Rama 08:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, don't get me wrong, I'd rather let the odd DGSE murderer escape than have Guantanamo, I just thought I'd better point out the irony before someone else did :-).Winstonwolfe 00:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some minor POV wording 

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: I think that this matter is sufficiently sensitive for the record of event to necessitate both extremely careful and accurate writing, and pertinent citation of the best kind available.
Agents had boarded and carefully examined the ship while she was open to public viewing. Explosions were calculated that would be sufficient to cripple the ship, but, they hoped, precise and small enough not to take life.
Two limpet mines attached to the hull of the ship detonated 10 minutes apart, at around 11:45 p.m., and the ship sank in four minutes.
The agents failed to allow for the less rigorous safety procedures on the Greenpeace vessel.[citation needed] Some people below decks did not evacuate the ship but returned below decks to salvage belongings and make a film record of events. A Portuguese-Dutch photographer, Fernando Pereira, drowned in the flooding that followed the second blast while attempting to fetch his equipment. The other ten crewmembers evacuated on the order of Captain Peter Willcox, or were thrown into the water by the force of the explosion.
How do we know this stuff? Has it come from a record of a trial, a news report, or a movie? 
*"Agents had boarded and carefully examined the ship while she was open to public viewing." 
:How do we know? 
*"Explosions were calculated that would be sufficient to cripple the ship, but, they hoped, precise and small enough not to take life." 
:How can we possibly know what they hoped? If this information is based on what they said while on trial, then it needs to be written as "Such and such a person stated that they hoped ........" 
*"The agents failed to allow for the less rigorous safety procedures on the Greenpeace vessel." 
:How do we know that they failed to allow for this? Did they say so? If so, then it needs to be stated that they made this assertion. 
*"The agents failed to allow for the less rigorous safety procedures on the Greenpeace vessel." 
:"less rigourous" than what? "less" is a comparative term. It must have a reference point. 
*"Some people below decks did not evacuate the ship but returned below decks to salvage belongings and make a film record of events." 
:Does this mean that they did not evacuate the ship after the first explosion? If this is what is meant, then it needs to be stated, because it is not clear. 
*"The other ten crewmembers evacuated on the order of Captain Peter Willcox," 
:Is ten the total number, the number that was still aboard at the time of the second explosion, referred to previously as "some people", or what? Do we know how many people were on board at the time of the first explosion? Do we know how many were on board at the time of the second explosion? 
Amandajm (talk) 12:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation needed

message: At 21:58, 9 July 2008 User:Manxruler applied a banner "This article needs additional citations for verification." At that time the article had 20 in-text footnoted references, a bibliography of three books, 7 external links, including a court transcript, links to four documentary films and a See also link to Rainbow Warrior Case (international law).--Wetman (talk) 05:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The current article content (2014-08-23) seems to indicate that the French team researched the boat carefully before placing the mines - presumably to give people a chance to abandon ship and avoid fatalities, as was claimed, but also presumably to maximize the likelihood of sinking the ship.  Absent any evidence to the contrary, this seems fairly NPOV to me.  Memetics (talk) 12:25, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Intellectual Honesty Award

message: The overview says that the two agents "were sentenced to ten years in prison, but in fact spent just over two years confined to the French island of Hao before being freed".  But the "France implicated" section says the two "would be detained at the French military base on Hao Atoll for three years."  Which is correct: Were they supposed to spend 10 years or 3 years in prison?  Memetics (talk) 12:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistency in agents' sentence 

message: There was no plea bargain. Such things occur in the USA, but not in New Zealand.101.98.169.98 (talk) 05:24, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  No plea bargain 

message: The current article states "As of 2015 the French government has not officially apologized", citing a transcript of an interviewhttp://www.democracynow.org/2015/6/9/rainbow_warrior_30_years_later_will with Peter Wilcox, the captain of the Rainbow Warrior. However at least two articleshttp://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/06/438036449/french-agent-apologizes-for-blowing-up-greenpeace-ship-in-1985http://www.english.rfi.fr/asia-pacific/20150907-rainbow-warrior-bomb-apology-not-enough-captain directly counter this claim - stating explicitly that the the French government did issue an official apology. Other articles (as included in the current wikipedia entry) state that an official apology was part of the political deal to return the arrested agents. A primary source - of the apology itself - would be great! But I haven't managed to dig it up. RadishSlice talk 22:33, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your NPR reference mentions that Jean-Luc Kister, the agent responsible for planting the bombs that sank the boat, personally apologised for the terrorist attack. That's really not at all the same as the French government issuing an official apology. NPR then refers to a 1987 NYT article stating that the French did promise to apologise, but not that they ever did. Given that the French broke other promises related to the affair (the release of Mafart and Prieur), and that no evidence has been found to the contrary, we must conclude that in all likelihood the French never apologised. --189.130.235.144 (talk) 03:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The statements you've noted aren't the phrases I was referring to. More explicitly - the NPR and RFI articles both unequivocally state that there was an official apology (in each of their last paragraphs). NPR: "The French government later issued an official apology for the incident and paid reparations to Greenpeace." RFI: "France has officially apologised for the incident, paid compensation and stopped its nuclear testing in 1996." Anyway, doing some further research now. I've found a French article (French Annual International Law Review) discussing the apology letter requested by NZ and presented by Jacques Chirac. Going to do further archive sifting to see if I can find an English translation of the letter in NZ publications.RadishSlice talk 11:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OK So I got around to checking an archive of NZ newspapers of the time. Auckland Star Wednesday July 23, 1986 (Front page A1) includes an English translation of the French apology letter which was part of the agent swap: "This is a translation of the letters of apology received by the New Zealand Ambassador in Paris. The text was issued in Wellington by Prime Minister David Lange: Mr Prime Minister, The French Minister of External Relations informed you on September 22, 1985, that "as a result of new investigations ordered by the French Government, it has become apparent that the attack on the Rainbow Warrior was carried out by French service agents". My predecessor made it clear on the same date that he was deeply distressed at the consequences that this affair had for relations between our two countries. I wish to convey to you today the apology of the Government of the French republic for the events which took place in Auckland on July 10, 1985. I beg you, Mr Prime Minister, to accept the assurances of my high consideration. JACQUES CHIRAC Prime Minister". The same newspaper edition, on page A3, includes an article ("Lange applauds simple apology") covering NZ Prime Minister David Lange's acceptance of the apology. On this evidence, I am going to remove the line in question from the article. -- RadishSlice talk 12:25, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Could I suggest that you actually enter this Auckland Star Material into the article? I have looked and cannot find any other reference to an official apology anywhere on the internet. Egmason (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have just now uploaded the scans of the articles to commons. I am not actually sure if they're supposed to be uploaded there (re copyright), but here they are:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Auckland_Star_Front_Page_A1_23_July_1986.jpg --https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sun_23-7-1986_A1-page.jpg -- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Auckland_Star_A3_-_23_July_1986.jpg I can see you have been doing great work on the article, I hadn't heard of the 1991 "more sincere" apology from the French PM.. I don't know if you were suggesting adding these articles as a citation link, or as an actual text excerpt. I'm not sure what the usual practice is for citing an old undigitised newspaper article.
As the author of the entry regarding the apology, I have read the above debate. I wish to add that the apology spoken of above by RadishSlice and others is the Official French Apology to New Zealand. Nowhere have I found mention of an apology to Greenpeace, only reparations. Though this distinction is not specifically mentioned in the Democracy Now! article I used as a ref, it is in another article which also points out there has been no apology to the Pereira family. btw this is in the context of apology of the actual bomber, Jean-Luc Kister to affected members of Greenpeace and the NZ people. I propose to make this distinction clear in the article. DadaNeem (talk) 05:01, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  French Official Apology 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Someone, also without a name, added the "Opinion" tag to the part about New Zeeland considering the act as terrorism, a part that has references.
The reason for this tag was that "Greenpeace has previously committed acts of piracy. To call sinking their ships a terrorist act, while it may not be an incorrect statement, is subject to opinion"
However, it is a fact that New Zeeland considered it a Terrorist act, and that it continues to be a terrorist act even if Greenpeace may have committed acts of piracy. Saying that fact is opinion based on the editors opinion is itself an opinion and not a fact. There is no international law about terrorism not being terrorism if the person targeted by terrorism has committed an illegal act before.
188.151.123.146 (talk) 08:44, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Opinion not a fact" tag 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved   (t · c) buidhe 17:41, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior →  – There is a question of whether "sinking" or "bombing" is the more suitable gerund for the French foreign intelligence service blowing up a ship docked in a New Zealand port during peacetime, causing death. 
The "Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior" seems euphemistic, for this article is hardly a timeline of the ship sinking. I don't know if WP convention suggests "Sinking" (in cases such as the Titanic), but even if it does, I think that this case is sufficiently unusual to merit "Bombing". Egroeg5 (talk) 19:45, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that "sinking" and "bombing" are both commonly used in sources for this topic, although "sinking" is more frequent than "bombing". However, on one of the five WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, i.e. consistency, "bombing" is consistent with articles on similar topics, while "sinking" is not. So, I see a point either way, which leaves me without a strong preference for either Rainbow Warrior bombing or the current title. Nurg (talk) 02:23, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 26 November 2020 

message: The article mentions the Treaty of Rarotonga as being part of the background of the event, yet the Treaty postdates the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior by about a month: the Rainbow Warrior sank on July 10 1985, whilst the Treaty was signed on August 6. More solid research might need to be done to establish how the sinking impacted the treaty, but undoubtedly it was not the other way around as the article currently suggests. 2405:6E00:68E:C6B9:B55A:DF2A:6040:B024 (talk) 10:27, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chronology Issues 

message: Kia ora, I note that on the state terrorism article the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior is listed, however, on the article on state-sponsored terrorism it is not. Given the definitions on both of those aforementioned pages, I think it could be potentially more appropriate to use "a state terrorist bombing" in the lead paragraph of this article instead of "a state-sponsored terrorist bombing". Numerous sources reference it as an act of state terrorism instead of an act of state-sponsored terrorism. (Including but not limited to:    ) Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 15:15, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll leave this here for about a week, if no one voices any issues with the change I'll go ahead and make it. Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 07:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Support the change. The action was performed by a branch of the French state so "state terrorism" is the correct category. Burrobert (talk) 11:59, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for voicing your thoughts, I've made the change since. Carolina2k22 • (talk) • (edits) 07:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "State-sponsored terrorist bombing"