Talk:Haplogroup J-M172

message: This article contradicts the Wikipedia article on Haplogroup J.  Some of the info in this article is misleading, especially with respect to the frequency of Haplogroup J2 among Jewish males.  Most published data show Jewish men, sephardic and Ashkenazi, carry Haplogroup J2 (M172) at about twice the rate of J1.  The age of the M172 marker is estimated by Spencer wells to be 10K years old in his latest book, not 18,500 +-3500 years as stated in this article.  
66.135.96.138 21:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I have put up a suggestion at :Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals to create a new WikiProject, WikiProject: Genetic History.
To quote from what I've written there:
:; Description: A wikiproject for articles on DNA research into genetic genealogy and genealogical DNA tests; the history and spread of human populations as revealed by eg human Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups; and similar.  Many such articles can be found in :Category:Genetic genealogy and its subcategories, notably the subcategories on human haplogroups.
:; Rationale
:* My direct motivation for seeking this Wikiproject was a recent run-in at Y-chromosomal Aaron, where I desperately missed the lack of a relevant WikiProject talk page to go to, to attract the input, advice and views of knowledgeable editors in this area.  
::There's a lot of general public interest in the proposed subject area -- eg the Y-chromosomal Aaron page is apparently getting well over 100 hits a day, and over the last 18 months or so there's been a lot of material added, by a fair number of different editors, mostly editing different pages which are particularly relevant to them.  IMO, a central wikiproject would be useful, and also a good place to be able to bring WP:OR, WP:V, and WP:general cluelessness issues for wider informed input. 
:::Wikipedia:WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology and :Wikipedia:WikiProject Evolutionary biology do already exist, but their focus is much much broader.  With regard to those project's charters, I believe the subject would be seen as a rather specialist niche topic area, rather out of the mainstream of those project's normal focus.  On the other hand, I believe that there are a number of wikipedia editors (and readers) who are specifically interested in the subject, who would find advantage if there were a specific wikiproject for it. Jheald (talk) 12:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to create a new WikiProject: Genetic History 

message: I tried to fix the order of the references and I screwed up. Can someone advise me? Thanks. --Kupirijo (talk) 09:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I fixed it. Next time please use <ref> NOT  --Kupirijo (talk) 10:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can someone please help me fix the order of the references? 

message: Image:Inaccuratemap.jpg‎
The concentration of J2 is:
Mesopotamia Levant
* Iraqis 29.7% (Sanchez et al. 2005) 
* Lebanese 29.5% (wells et al. 2001 29% & Semino et al. 30%)
* Syrians 29%   
* Sephardic Jews 29%
* Kurds 28.4%
* Then the frequency fades out of Mesopotamia
Turks 27.9%, Georgians 26.7% , Iranians 23.3%, Ashkenazi Jews 23.2%, Southern Italian 23%, Greeks 22.8%Tajiks 18.4%, North Indians 7.8% (R. Trivedi et al. 2007) 19.8% (Sahoo et al. 2006), Pakistanis 14.7%
* The map showed J2 center in the Caucas! Cadenas2008 (talk) 16:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The map is completely unsourced, i.d. without any reference, and probably stolen. The legend is an english-germanic mix, the not identifiable author points to Iran. Nevertheless, it should not be removed until providing a better one.HJJHolm (talk) 13:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: J2 Map is way off!

message: In place of Origin, I avoided using nations because they distract from pinpointing the geographic origin & gives a nationalistic flavor to the article. Cadenas2008 (talk) 02:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Nationalism Bias

message: 300px|thumb|J2 origin*: O. Semino et al, C. Cinnioglu et al., N. Zahiri et al.‎
* Please show me a study done by a recognized Anthropologist (not a blogger/website) that says the origin of J2 is from Zagros (A mountainous  region!)
* Read..
O. Semino et al, C. Cinnioglu et al., N. Zahiri et al.
I went through their J2 studies word by word I didn't find the word Zagros, your propaganda is ruinning this article please stop!..Cadenas2008 (talk) 17:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: J2 Originated in Mesopotamia not Zagros

message: Sorry, but those maps do not seem very accurate.
I was particularly surprised by the presumed concentration of J2 in the Basque country.
In reality that region has one of the lowest levels of J2
J2 in Spain
--Periergeia (talk) 20:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So, remove it, because it is stolen.HJJHolm (talk) 13:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map again: 

message: Semino 2004(http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181965) says j2b (m102 old j2e) can be found in india and central asia with relatively large percentage, i believe experts thinks that j2b and R1a is proto-indo-european connection between asia and europe. And this is not enough j2b hardly found in cyprus, crete and southern italy(all three were part of ancient greece), for this reason please change this ancient greek connection claim and add indo-european conection to the article.--94.122.205.148 (talk) 01:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  J2b (M102) as Ancient Greece connection? 

message: There are lots of problems with this page. I'll mention one: the dead link to www.m410.net. Anybody know where this is now? Or gone?
IanHerriott (talk) 07:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  broken external link 

message: Nice looking map, but some inconsitencies. J2 does not occure in frequencies of > 10% throughout all the Balkans. In Greece and Bulgaria it is c. 20%, then 5-10% Serbia and Macedonia, <5% the rest
More accurate: 
 Hxseek (talk) 04:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: I just made a number of revisions, hope people won't mind.  The new ISOGG tree needed to be added, that shouldn't be controversial.  The two paragraphs I removed were a mixture of outdated, inaccurate, and incomplete information, presented in an unclear way, that would have required enormous work to re-write. There are obviously more than eight sub-haplogroups in J2 now -- depending on how you define them. There have been so many articles with so much new data since the cited 2004 article by Semino.  There were several little assertions in the article that appeared at random points, referring to possible origins of certain clades, which weren't part of any balanced, systematic coverage of the origins of J2 clades overall, and appeared to correspond to individual's personal interests.  Some links were broken, and the inclusion of the British Isles DNA project to  the external links didn't make sense, since a large number of ethnic and geographical DNA projects contain J2 members, the British Isles having a lower proportion than many others.  
There's still a lot that could be done to improve this article, but this is a start.  BTW, something should be done about the "subclades of J2 Haplogroup" diagram, which was lifted directly from Sengupta (2006), despite the ingenuous claim of Adnanmuf that he made it himself, and it's already out of date.  See the many other cases of images he has improperly used on Wikipedia -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Adnanmuf  So this should be removed too, shouldn't it? Iris-J2 (talk) 00:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  These are long overdue changes and improved the article, especially by bringing the ISOGG tree up to date. As mentioned above, more work remains, especially it seems to me in regards to the graphics. I agree that the subclades diagram is dubious and outdated and needs to be replaced or simply removed. The removal of  mention of possible origins of certain subclades may indeed be warranted, though if the text "A subclade of haplogroup J2a, defined by the M92 marker has been implicated in the ancient Greek colonization " warrants removal, then the associated graphic titled "Distribution of Ancient Greek colonies corresponding to that of Hg J2a-M92" should be removed/kept in tandem. The J2 Distribution map seems OK, but does not contain the entire range of J2, notably in light of the expanded discussion of J2 in Indian Castes and the Tharu of Nepal. Regarding the map graphic of the "correspondence" between J2 and Cardial pottery, I find this kind of loose geographical blobogram type correlation particularly unconvincing, though I'm unqualified to argue strongly against its inclusion.IanHerriott (talk) 00:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisions 

message: I tried to verify the info about the origin of J2 from the references provided, but I failed to find it, could anyone provide the qoutes and page numbers from these references here. Sole Soul (talk) 09:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: Thank you for your reply, Iris-J2. The bulk of evidence, indeed, suggests a region of evolution through a span of land between North-Western Iran and Eastern Turkey (and perhaps even parts of the Lower Caucauses). This is where the I and J linkers split up. Where J represents a Mediterranean physical type, and I is the lighter Caucasoids. The attribution of Haplogroup J to 'Arabs', is a horrid farce, or a terrible generalization. Arabs carry a distinct haplotype J1, an independent product forming through ~10,0000 years of isolated evolution (from the data gathered it appears most likely that it came from Yemen). But even that being said, the phototype of (true) modern Arabs should be attributed to heavy mixing with East Africans (and a more minor mongoloid contribution). Yemenese women carry 35% East African mtDNA, which simply suggests that Arabs are 25% black. Europeans don't carry 'Arab', or certainly not black genes, but they are almost exclusively Fertile Crescentian, in origin. In fact, one autosomal study provided an estimate of, 'at least' (and I quote), 75% middle eastern origin, for modern Europeans. But the data is only based of modern sampling, which means it cannot account for evolution differences from founder effects (and genetic drifting), through recent history.  Anyways, what is certain, is that all major Caucasoid Haplogroups(I,J,G,R) can be reasonably be suggested as being "Iranian" in origin. In fact, Haplogroup G, R, and J, have all been formerly proposed as being Iranian markers, based off clinial variation, and haplotype diversity. Given that, arguing over whether J2a1a1b2a43...ect..ect formed in Poland or Greece, or wherever, becomes senseless. And what is relevant, is the ultimate truth, that Europeans do not have a Paleolithic past.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zadeh79 (talk • contribs) 05:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, just looking at this, could this post not be construed as at least slightly biased (or even racist)? The claim that Arabs are "25% black" is flawed on so many levels: first, in genetics there are no such racial categories (especially not defined by physical appearance) as they are phenotype, not genotype. You also cite very little sources, and the whole basing of your argument is shifty at best... these things are mainly hypothetical to start with. We still cannot say for sure where haplotypes originated (except for that they all ultimately come from Africa), we simply do not have a complete set of evidence...--Yalens (talk) 15:06, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Also, proposing R, J and G as specifically Iranian markers is laughable. All three emerged long before Iranians (and possibly even Indo-Europeans) even existed as a distinct group, and are found on a wide span of peoples that certainly aren't limited to those with Iranian influences... --Yalens (talk) 15:08, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah. Let;s not start inventing our own theories Slovenski Volk (talk) 06:35, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early Neolithic peoples evolved thorugh a span of land between Eastern Turkey , the Lower Caucauses, and North-Western Iran 

message: I could list so many examples, but perhaps the most glaring is that the regions with the highest concentration of J2 are either drastically underrepresented or even left gray... Northeast Georgia has 72%, but there is no note that it has ANY on the map. Ingush and Chechens have 32% and 26% (it is probably more prevalent in the Southern highlands of the two countries). And by contrast, Southern Dagestan- i.e. Lezgins, Tabasarans, etc...- which has very little to none, according to the map has it notably... I have made a much more detailed version on my computer, but it involved a bit of guesswork (though I swear, much less than the current version!)... It should definitely be changed though....--Yalens (talk) 22:44, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The map isn't really accurate...

message: @Alba Illyrian on Avars: Labeling another editor as biased is not really constructive. Why don't I think that Marchani should be used instead of Yunusbaev regarding the figure for Avars? It's not because I am "biased", its because Yunusbaev is much more familiar with the region and much more importantly, he sampled a much bigger sample of Avars than Marchani did. Marchani only sampled 12, and furthermore, she does not know the region. Yunusbaev's figures are also more similar to those of other studies on the region (Caciagli for example). Even more critical in my mind, there is the possibility that Marchani's "Avars" were actually an Andic people labeled as Avars by the Dagestani census, but have quite different origins. The stats on Marchani's "Avars" are quite different from those of Caciagli and Yunusbaev's tests, but DO show similarity with the Andis in Yunusbaev 2006. If you look at the map of the sample population locations (geographic), it reveals that the location of these "Avars" in Marchani is actually in mountainous Western Avaria- where Andis and their relatives live. In short, Caciagli and Yunusbaev are much more authoritative. Marchani even said that her goal was to determine "1) whether the highland practice of patrilocal endogamy has generated sex-specific population relationships, and 2) whether the history of migration and military conquest associated with the lowland populations has left Central Asian genes in the Caucasus, by comparing genetic diversity and pairwise population relationships between Daghestani populations and reference populations throughout Europe and Asia for autosomal, mitochondrial, and Y-chromosomal markers." (from the PDF of Marchani's test). Note how determining the makeup of individual populations is not here (hence the small samples). And in any case, why do you add in Marchani's info, but delete Yunusbaev's?--Yalens (talk) 14:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Stop to falisification! "its because Yunusbaev is much more familiar with the region and much more importantly, he sampled a much bigger sample of Avars than Marchani did. Marchani only sampled 12, and furthermore, she does not know the region". YUNUSBAYEV IS NOT FAMILIAR IN REGION. Yunusbayev is from turkic Bashkortostan (!)It is Ural region!And all that is written by Yunusbayev there is a complete nonsense. This is nationalist engaged pseudo scholar--37.139.52.40 (talk) 14:06, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Avars, Ossetes and "Kazbegi" Georgians

message: I think an indian origin could explain something about indoeuropeans.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emadb (talk • contribs) 21:56, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You think wrong. YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 15:48, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: What are the total percentages of J2-M172 in Russian Jews and Iranian Jews? Do non-Jewish populations there have the same haplogroup and if so, by how much lower or higher?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.9.154.139 (talk) 02:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  J2 Prescence in Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews 

message: So called "Nakh people" such people don't exist. It is propaganda. There are people speaking the Nakh-Dagestanian languages (North Eastern Caucasian).Idea that, Dagestanians (peoples of Daghestan)mainly treat one haplogroup J1, and Chechens another has under itself no firm soil. There is no research at once of two people which author would be the same scientist. The statement that the vast majority of Dagestanians (first of all Darginians) concern to Arabs belongs to a Pan-Turkist Bayazit Yunusbayev from turkic Bashkortostan. And if this pseudo scholar would be engaged in studying of Chechens and Ingushs, its conclusions of a bla the same. That is it would start utvezhdat that Chechens belong to "Arabs". As far as this person is incompetent clearly from his statements that haplogroups Ia,Ib,Ic found in Dagestany can to be connected with Scythians and Sarmatians. That is their penetration. But one author has no such data. And it finds these Skitho-Sarmatian genes only in the most culturally backward the, mountainous villages where there live the anti-Avarian separatists.It has also a statement that Turkic-speaking Kumyks of Dagestan are allegedly genetically more related to the Turkic peoples of Central Asia than North Caucasians. Anybody has no similar ideas,statements they are present ONLY at Yunusbayev. And still Yunusbayev constantly compares the genetic data taken at huge number of Turkic peoples of Daghestan with scanty number of the genetic data taken from small number the caucasian speaking Dagestanians. That is at it always so: "We compared data taken at 3500 Turkic speaking Karanogays,.with 7 Darginians, 5 Kubachis and 9 Ando-Tsez. Yes same totally ludicrous! And knowing that other researchers came to a conclusion about genetic proximity for example of Avars with Georgians and Iranians, Yunusbayev right there doesn't mention any Iranians at all. It simply doesn't attract them to comparison, but instead of them at Yunusbayev Kypriotes-Turks appear. And and here Kypriotes Turks.. It has both Turks and Rypriotes-Turks, and here Iranians aren't present. Doesn't want to show and compare their data. This is the speculator, but not the scientist.The data provided on this page proceed from Yunusbayev's researches though directly don't mention him. And still if write about Chechens from Dagрestan then specify that they are MIGRANTS on the Daghestan earth.--37.139.52.40 (talk) 13:57, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: A pan-Turkic scribblers long time and thoroughly falsify everything they can.It came to the point that they are on the Turkish page of the Wikipaedia article "great Kumyks" (Kumuklar) posted misinformation that the alleged national leader of the peoples of the North Caucasus Sheikh Shamil was supposedly the Kumyk (!?).Everywhere and all of the scientific publication know Shamil as the Avar from the village of Gimry (District Untsukul),only Turkish Wikipaedia knows he as "Turkic Kumyk/Kumuk". Moreover,in Dagestan, in the village of Gimry visited relatives of Shamil and none of them claimed that they belong to the Kumyks.Therefore, we strongly recommend a very wary to the edits and publications belonging to the Turks.Bayezid Yunusbaev (from turkic Bashkortostan of Russia) is one of them.--109.172.58.15 (talk) 17:32, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: About "Nakh people" and Daghestanians

message: Substituted at 01:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course, all of us know that among Greeks are in the lead in Europe by quantity of purely African genes therefore existence of Middle Eastern genes as if spoils the general almost perfectly African origin."The less-heterogeneous J2 (J-M172), which occurs as frequently as J1( J-M267) in some Middle Eastern populations, is the more prevalent in Europe."This citation is taken from some scientific work. It the point is that the author claims that this J2 haplogroup, and at all not J1 prevails in Europe. that is it is more widespread in comparison with J1  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrkan (talk • contribs) 13:36, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: From the actual data presented to me, I can say this article is way off.
I'm no anthropologist, but please fix it.  
This is the Human Migration map from the genographic project 
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Rosenberger (talk • contribs) 11:39, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  this article about J2-M172 or J-M172 is way outdated 

message: Strange statements according to  Armenians allegedly have no J2 haplogroup (that is incorrect) and all the matter is that allegedly according to the text are introduced in article:“as well as many peoples (e.g. Jews, Armenians, Lebanese) having returned from diasporas”.Sorry,this text is unclear also without citations.However we know thatArmenia, situated between the Black and Caspian Seas, lies at the junction of Turkey, Iran, Georgia, Azerbaijan and former Mesopotamia. This geographic position made it a potential contact zone between Eastern and Western civilizations. In this investigation, we assess Y-chromosomal diversity in four geographically distinct populations that represent the extent of historical Armenia. We find a striking prominence of haplogroups previously implicated with the Agricultural Revolution in the Near East, including the J2a-M410-, R1b1b1*-L23-, G2a-P15- and J1-M267-derived lineages. Unless this J2a-M410- haplogroup belongs not to Armenians, but some diasporas? It is obvious that the fact of existence of this haplogroup as at Armenians, and the Anatolian Turks (< Hattic-Hurro-Caucasian World) didn't suit nationalistically oriented participants of both Armenia, and various Turkic state educations which arose on the world map after the collapse of the USSR in any way.Thus, genetic history of true owners of these territories that is Hattic-Hurro-Caucasians has to suffer because of extremely nationalist approach of both parties.Also bewilderment causes strange digressions to history of archeological excavations in Altai, a mention of this haplogroup J2a with cunning turn towards extensive Western Asia and with the further instruction on the Anatolian Turks.First, it is in this case not about extensive Western Asia, and specifically Syro-Anatolian-Сaucasian region. You shouldn't try to prove unprovable, namely that at a Turkic-speaking these genes from some other Turkic peoples (!?). Anything similar! According to genetic researches on the people of Afghanistan (see the map of a genetic distance), Uyghurs of China and Uzbeks of Afghanistan (also the Hazara of Afghanistan and Pakistan) is much closer to some people of the northeast Caucasus (Dagestan), than to Anatolian Turks.See: Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events.These facts once again confirm not Tirkic origin of a source, but its genetical PRIMORDIAL Hattic-Hurro-Caucasian origin--Wrkan (talk) 13:17, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: What diasporas and what Altai?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Und 2001:871:4F:2BB2:4454:C87D:20EB:8F5E (talk) 14:46, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children