Talk:Multiverse/Archive 2

message: In The Dilbert Future, author Scott Adams says, "Some physicists theorize that reality is like frames of an animated movie, with infinite universes existing at once." Is it any of the physicists mentioned in this article ? I couldn't find a mention of the animated frames idea in this article though. Jay 19:25, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: animation frames

message: I expanded this section, providing rebuttals when I could find them. While this section is now somewhat long, I thought it appropriate to maintain NPOV.
Most of the list draws heavily on “MULTIVERSE COSMOLOGICAL MODELS” by P.C.W. Davies   DV8 2XL
I think the article should say something like this in the intro: Multiverses have been hypothesized in physics and philosophy; they are also used in fiction, particularly in science fiction.  DV8 2XL has done such a great job on this article, that I'll let him/her decide if, when and how to do it--CSTAR 03:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I just didn't want to muck up the intro. At this point the intro is very crisp and I prefer to have one person edit it to preserve its style. I'm still perfectly happy to edit other parts of the article myself. --CSTAR 15:35, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanded Arguments against multiverse theories section 

message: How can the use of infinite universes to explain the suitability of the world for man not be a truism? Surely *anything* can be explained with infinite universes, since *anything* that can happen, happens in *some* universe? ··gracefool |☺ 12:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anthropic principle 

message: "It has been suggested that this view regarding a fundamental theory of physics may be a result of the growing influence of the Discovery Institute within the Church    (see  for an alternate view)."
I'm not sure that this belongs in the article, it's got NPOV issues and it is somewhat Amerocentric. DV8 2XL 12:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I put it in that passage (as well as Cardinal Schonborn's statement preceding it, which this passage is intended to explain). Schonborn's statement is justifiable I think, and by no means Amerocentric (Schonborn is Austrian); the phrase above in question, tries to explain why Schonborn would even care about such a claim about the multiverse, given that most people would regard it as arcane. The fact of the matter is that for intelligent designers the existence of multiverse theories is a real problem which they are trying to discredit. And it turns out that there is this connection with the discovery institute. Maybe we could rephrase it? But I don't think it is a violation of the NPOV policy.--CSTAR 14:57, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I'll buy that Schonborn's statement should stand (nor am I asking if it should be removed)  particularly because it seems he is echoing the opinion of Rome in this matter, and it is probably a reflection of most Biblical Creationists on the subject. (As well as being a rather pithy bit of prose, a feat most Fundies can't manage.) But I still think that to suggest that the Discovery Institute has a "growing influence" in the Catholic Church has the odour of Amerocentric hubris. The R.C. Church had a rather strong ideological position on Creation long before the Discovery Institute existed; nor did the Discovery Institute originate the Argument from Design. Plus issues of teaching this nonsense in schools are not very big outside the U.S. (Yet). DV8 2XL 16:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The discovery institute hasn't originated much aside from a large publicity campaign, granted; but  it has an interest in making the Catholic Church more vocal in areas of science where it has remained relatively quiet for some time.--CSTAR 17:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: PS I'll leave the ultimate editorial decision up to you.--CSTAR 18:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Tell you what: I do respect your opinions and value your contributions here, so I will leave it up for awhile and give you a shot at a re-write if you feel strongly about it. If there is no change in a week, I'll delete the passage. Fair enough? DV8 2XL 18:12, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this passage be droped 

message: The The Blackwell Guide to Metaphysicsrefers to Lewis’s view  as extreme modal realism as do most metaphysicians working today in Ontology, Identity, and Modality. thus I have reverted the heading (but left the link in the text alone) DV8 2XL 02:15, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extreme modal realism 

message: I deleted stuff that confused various issues in cosmology. WAS 4.250 07:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Your going to have to come up with a more detailed reason than "deleting junk" for a edit of this size. DV8 2XL 17:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I fully agree with DV8 2XL. --CSTAR 01:12, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing in this article is unsourced. If any is the onus is on you to point it out. The same holds true for what you deem religious spamming, please point out was you are talking about and why it is 'spamming' What irrevelevancies are you conserned, with and exactly who are you to call them such? You say: "These ideas did NOT originate as anything to do with creationism, fine-tuning, or the rebutle of those concepts. It has to do with string theory, combining gravity and quantum theory, and coming up with a single mathematical model for the whole of physics." I beg your pardon? Who are you to narrow the scope of this topic, given that it is in your words; "protoscientific"? You might find that there are a few people that may not share your restricted view on these matters. DV8 2XL 07:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The concept of a multiverse is not new and somek form of it is due to Leibniz. And please don't use straw man arguments. By the way, what religious spamming are your referring to? Perhaps Cardinal Schonborn's quote. I put that in, because it is relevant to not the opposition multiverse theories have in religious circles. I cannot imagine how this could possibly be construed as religious proselytism.--CSTAR 14:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Junk deleted

message: Could cosmic pluralism be used anywhere? Perhaps just a note at the beginning of "Multiverse in Philosophy" to give a better historical frame. Marskell 13:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Frankly Marskell, I do not see a place for it in this topic, unless you want to place it in the 'See also' section as a link.  DV8 2XL 04:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cosmic pluralism 

message: The article Parallel universe should be placed as a subcategory in Multiverse, as it just says how the theory of the Multiverse has affected science fiction. 7 November 19:16 (UTC)
: I disagree. Parallel universe has  different focus, and is mostly used in science fiction or as a figure of speech. --CSTAR 19:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I concure with CSTAR. The subject of multi- universe ideas on S.F. is covered in Many worlds and possible worlds in literature and art  DV8 2XL 22:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I concure with DV8 2XL. WAS 4.250 23:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge 

message: WAS, That's a rather mighty slab of text there, please consider condensing it a bit. Good work on the Terminology section, that is a needed addition to the article. DV8 2XL 23:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History and introduction 

message: The latest edit consists of  a long discursive, conufusing, paragraph preceded by these two:
:The concept of a multiverse in theoretical physics as part of a theory of everything begins with the many-worlds interpretation of the quantum field theory and has contined to present day investigations into various forms of string theory.
: "Hugh Everett III first proposed his many worlds theory in the 1950s to overcome the need for an observer to collapse the wave function of the Copenhagen interpretation. The wave function rotates in an abstract infinite-dimensional space called Hilbert space."
MWI is not an interpretation of quantum field theory. It's an interpretation of quantum mechanics. The wave function doesn't rotate.  It evolves unitarily. Everett didn't propose many worlds. Bryce DeWitt did. Everett proposed relative state which was reformulated by DeWitt.
I suggest the whole thing be be reverted.--CSTAR 23:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Both popular and professional research articles in cosmology often use the term "universe" when they really mean "observable universe". The reason for this is that unobservable physical phenomena are scientifically irrelevant; that is, they cannot affect any events that we can perceive, and therefore, it is argued, effectively do not exist (physicists say "causally do not exist"). They also cannot be measured, and therefore hypotheses about parts of the universe that are not observable, are not measurable.
This paragraph confuses causality with "scientific relevance". In MWI, other worlds have scientific relevance; they must explain something.--CSTAR 23:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latest edits 

message: The long blurb is a direct quote from a NYTimes article. This is a copyright violation. Justification enough for reverting.--CSTAR 23:34, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Best it were done quickly. DV8 2XL 23:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just did. --CSTAR 23:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Don't use WP to make a point. You weren't listing facts. "Once upon a time, blah..." is not a statement of a fact.--CSTAR 23:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Try using your own words WAS 4.250. I'm sure you can come up with something that isn't cut-and-paste DV8 2XL 23:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: There are several questionable items in your contribution. Copyright violation is one of them, but there were others as I tried pointing out. Could you discuss in the talk page what it is that you are trying to add to the article first? That would be a first step in resolving this diference.--00:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyvio 

message: Fair use says "Fair use makes copyrighted work available to the public as raw material without the need for permission or clearance, so long as such free usage serves the purpose of copyright law, which the U.S. Constitution defines as the promotion of "the Progress of Science and useful Arts" (I.1.8), better than the legal enforcement of claims of infringement."
See  for further information.
"RULES OF THUMB FOR COURSEPACKS
The Classroom Guidelines that were negotiated in 1976 can provide helpful guidance and we recommend that you read them.
1. Limit coursepack materials to
*single chapters
*single articles from a journal issue
*several charts, graphs or illustrations
*other similarly small parts of a work. " 
from  illustrates the principle of extracting part of a work being covered by fair use.
The New York Times itself quotes others.
"Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work."  therefore a quote that essentially lists facts isn't even covered by copywrite in the first place.
Wikipedia primary servers are in the US.
While it would be nice to have no legal complications, the rich in this world are seeking to own everything including math equations (which is what software patents are).
Don't help memes that block the free flow of information. Help memes that promote freedom. Fair use is one such doctrine, law and meme. WAS 4.250 23:39, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't use WP to make a point. You weren't listing facts. "Once upon a time, blah..." is not a statement of a fact.--CSTAR 23:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Try using your own words WAS 4.250. I'm sure you can come up with something that isn't cut-and-paste DV8 2XL 23:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: There are several questionable items in your contribution. Copyright violation is one of them, but there were others as I tried pointing out. Could you discuss in the talk page what it is that you are trying to add to the article first? That would be a first step in resolving this diference.--00:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyright and fair use