Talk:Emmylou Harris albums discography

message: As I read it, Collaborations is a subsection of the Discography section. If this is so, then I take it the collaborations listed should be limited to those albums (e.g., Trio, Western Wall, Roadrunning) on which Emmylou appears throughout and receives credit not just in the liner notes but on the front or back cover. A mere appearance, whether it's on one song or several, on someone else's album shouldn't be enough to warrant inclusion here. Otherwise, this section will become enormous again. Someone earlier suggested a separate discography entry, but until then. . . . Comments? Rivertorch 07:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would a separate discography list be a bad thing? The move might encourage further development of both the biographical article and her massive discography (which could use the Dylan listing as a model). — WiseKwai 10:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Hmmm, I just noticed this after adding some collaborations/duets.  My view is: her collaborations are a part of her career and deserve encyclopedic coverage.  Where they live strikes me as a formatting issue.  Of course she's been so darn prolific as to make a six degrees of Emmylou game feasible and I can see the need to eventually break them out another article.  The idea of removing them entirely makes me sad.  I'll help, but I'm still pretty much a newbie and buried in the Songbirds article. Rubioblanca 04:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Wouldn't it make for a smoother transition (read less angst for me) if the Discography article was in place before the data disappeared from the main article?  Is there a burning reason to do this now? Rubioblanca 05:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Good start! I went ahead and split the discography content out and added a main article link and also changed the template links to point to the new list. The chart coding is commented out for the time being until somebody (not me) wants to fill in the charts. I'd suggest that further talk about the discography development take place at Talk:Emmylou Harris discography. — WiseKwai 16:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Collaborations (copied from Emmylou Harris talk page for context) 

message: I just finished adding collaborative other appearances from the July 5 2007 version of the Emmylou Harris article.  Now they need to have the rest of the data filled in.  Still pending are the half dozen or so solo appearances from that list.  Should they go in the same list? Perhaps at the top? Rubioblanca 17:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wondered about her solo efforts, too. For example her Brokeback Mountain contribution and other one-off soundtrack efforts (Planes, Trains and Automobiles!) will need to be cataloged, and I guess at the top of the list with a blank space for collaborators (herself!) is as good a place as any. — WiseKwai 18:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solo vs Collaboration in Other Appearances 

message: I'm trying to make a seperate footnote section at the bottom of the Other Appearances that would just contain extended notes.  I can't use the "ref" tag because those are collected in the references section and don't know how to collect from the note_label template.  Anyone have an example of multiple notes sections that we can crib. (I rejected the superscript hack from the charted singles table because the note - text link is maintained by hand).  The Allison Krauss entry is the testbed.
Also, I noticed there is a liner notes template and style requested for using such references. Sigh!  How soon do we need to comply? Rubioblanca 18:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I find the instructions for notes coding pretty confusing and ambiguous. The solution I found still requires a certain amount of hand-coding, so it isn't perfect, but at least it's there. As far as as the liner notes template and the "need to comply": What's the rush? Who's pushing for compliance? If the list goes up for a featured list, that's a good time to comply. But for now, in the construction stages, I see no reason to be concerned, as along as a consistent style is adopted. — WiseKwai 18:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Tom Astor is a German country singer (not a typo) and has an article in the German wikipedia.  I am not sure of the cross wiki (transwiki) linking policy and whether or not to create a soft redirect.  Anyone with more knowldege of how to do this? Rubioblanca 05:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Appearances -- Tom Astor 

message: I think I finished grabbing all of the formerly deleted other appearances from the Emmylou Harris article.  I used content from the archived articles dated July 5 and September 21 2007.  Did I get them all?
If I did, I think the next stage is to walk through all of the entries and validate them against All Music Guide.  I'm also check cmt.com and two online music stores (amazon and cd universe) to validate data.  If I actually have one of the discs I also check the liner notes.  This takes 5-15 minutes per song depending on obscurity.  With around 200 entries (about 30 validated so far) there's a lot of work left.  I'll commit to at least 2/day (hopefully more).  Anyone else want to jump on this? Rubioblanca 05:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll plug away at it. Little by little, it'll get there. Rivertorch 03:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Appearances Transfer 

message: I'd like to add the three relevant songs from this album but am not sure where to put them since we're alphabetizing by collaborator(s). It is not strictly a Kate and Anna McGarrigle album. How about "various artists"? Which leads to another question: how inclusive do you think we should be on video and film appearances? The video release of The McGarrigle Hour features Emmylou on exactly one song. (P.S. You all are doing a fantastic job on this page. Thanks for all the hard work.) Rivertorch 06:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been alphabetizing by song collaborator and ordering collaborators by who did the album, then by songwriter if they collaborated and then arbitrary choice.  As long as the table is static (unsortable), I'm hesitant to go to multiple entries per song (1 per collaborator) as I think that would add too much extra length.  In your case, if the McGarrigle sisters played on the three songs, I'd probably put them there.  Alternatively, we could break out Soundtracks, various artist compilations, tributes, duets, etc. into their own sections, reducing the size of the master list but adding categorization complexity.  Who would have thought there was so much thinking involved in organizing a discography? Rubioblanca 07:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Umm. Nope I wasn't familiar with this recording.  After gadding about online for awhile, I'd list them all as McGarrigle followed by whoever else was on the cut (Wainright, Rondstadt, et al). I wonder if this is when they (Emmylou & the Sisters) wrote "All I Left Behind."  What is curiouser? Rubioblanca 20:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Appearances -- The McGarrigle Hour 

message: Emmylou appears on Jonathan Edwards Rockin' Chair album (1976).  She's credited at the album level with Acoustic guitar and Supporting vocals.  She could be on all tracks, since it's an Ahern produced album, but listening to the album I could not positively identify her voice (I think she's part of the chorus that backs all of the songs).  How should we treat albums like this?  There are around 50 appearances not yet in the listing and many of them do not list participation by specific song.  The discography appears to be making decent progress.  Thanks for cleaning up after me (specifically Rivertorch and Wisekwai); if I don't have the album, I'm relying on All Music for information and that means an extra level for mistakes to creep in. Rubioblanca 22:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can ask around but am not certain of learning anything definitive (and risk violating the original-research taboo if I do). It's a dilemma. Rivertorch 04:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Appearances -- Jonathan Edwards 

message: Currently the entry for Willie Nelson's "'Til I Gain Control Again" lists another album containing the song.  This presents a small quandry.  Many of the other songs in the list can be found on multiple albums.  There are at least 3 copies of "Evangeline" with The Band available on greatest hits compilations, as well as the 3 or so different versions of The Last Waltz itself.  I've been using (as best I can) the first instance of a performance. So, the question is:  Should we include other pressings of the same performance in the listing?  And, if so, how should they be formatted? Rubioblanca 00:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I vote no to all but first pressings. This article will get way out of control if we go down that road. Rivertorch 04:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with River. I'll remove the reference to the Greatest Hits compilation. Harris sings on several other tracks on Willie and Family Live, but the only one I could verify was that song, because I just have the Great Hits comp with me right now. — WiseKwai 20:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Appearances -- Multiple instances 

message: Emmylou has a CD called Artist's Choice:  Emmylou Harris  It's a set of songs selected by Emmylou as important to her, but without her as part of the performance.  She writes about each of the 16 cuts and what is means to her.  What do we do with it?  She's also written liner notes a few times on albums she otherwise had no participation with.  Should these authorships be listed?  Rubioblanca 01:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so. The Artist's Choice CD was part of a series (sponsored by Starbucks if memory serves) and certainly has no place in her discography because she had no part in the artistry or production. Maybe a brief aside in the main article might be warranted, but I'm dubious of the encyclopedic value of it. The liner notes aren't part of her discography, either. Rivertorch 04:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: River's opinion about this seems reasonable, too. I'm not sure how Artist's Choice fits into the discography. — WiseKwai 20:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miscellaneous Stuff 

message: I'm baffled by this one and can find no reference for it. The allmusic page doesn't help. I'm assuming the Be Here to Love Me CD is based on the film, which I don't recall hearing Emmylou sing in (although she is mentioned a couple times). TVZ may have re-recorded the song with Emmylou or duetted with her at a concert that was taped, but he usually sang that one solo. Anybody have liner notes or otherwise know? Rivertorch 04:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think whoever added this originally got the album wrong.  It should be Texas Rain.  This was where I stopped earlier today, because of the same problem.  I've been using All Music to validate the starting data set and found errors on around 30 of the entries (from simple typos to entirely the wrong song or album).  Oh well, going to sleep now and will finish whatever you leave for me in the morning.  Rubioblanca 05:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Appearances:  If I Needed You 

message: Added info but didn't put Notes link(s) in. Allmusic just says "Carter" for songwriter. I believe it's Maybelle, not A.P. or any other Carter. Do you think this is an acceptable citation:  ? Rivertorch 04:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, All Music does point to Mother Maybelle. If you click on the song it will send you to this page .  I've been linking all albums to their All Music main pages and then following the credits and song links for more information.  As to the citation you suggest, I am hesitant because of the inclusion of lyrics.  There are huge questions around copyright and online lyrics that make such sites troublesome. Rubioblanca 05:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Appearances:  Fair and Tender Ladies 

message: The following list of albums credit Emmylou as a performer at All Music Guide, but may not specify tracks (I haven't checked many of these).  So we know she's on the album (barring All Music errors) but need to check other resources to find more data.  There are another 30 or so songs that I can check (have to dig into those stored boxes) that I haven't included here, which I intend to tackle first.  On at least one of these (Jonathan Edwards: Rockin' Chair) the liner notes don't help.  For the others, I suggest that if you can successfully add the entry to the Other Appeareances tables, or verify that what is on the album has already been listed from a previous pressing, then please delete the line from this list.  If your {non-original} research turns up no further information, please note that fact (I bracketted 'liner notes' for Edwards' Rockin' Chair).  How do we list albums that we can only credit at the album level? (Suggestion:  separate table section) At onset, there are 60 single artist albums and 14 various artists albums.  While I tried to weed out obvious compilations, some have surely crept in (both of the Buck Owens' albums look like compilations but maybe they list the original source).  Please help if you can. Rubioblanca 16:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Several of these are tribute albums that are covered already. When AMG lists its credits, they list everyone together, as if the albums were a "We Are the World" project or something, with everyone in the same room together. I'll take a look at what I can and help whittle this beast down. Need to start an article on the Jesse James album - one of Paul Kennerley's projects. — WiseKwai 17:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Appearances:  Missing Entries 

message: There are some famous bootlegs referenced on Emmylou's musical friends page, specifically Neil Young's Chrome Dreams with outtakes from American Stars and Bars (not to be confused with the new official Chrome Dreams II) and an album titled Emmylou Harris and James Burton.  There is also a version of libelous version of Dylan's "Hurricane" (Desire sessions) with Emmylou's vocals.  Additionally, there are at least a dozen Emmylou Harris and the Hot Band bootlegs from 1975-6 alone.  My thought is: bootlegs do not belong in the discography, but I would like to check for consensus.  Rubioblanca 16:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct. — WiseKwai 16:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Rivertorch 18:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bootlegs 

message: WP:CHARTS was referenced in a recent change to the album charts.  I do not believe it applies (or should apply) to this article as that guideline appears directed at chart tables included with a single album article and not a discography.  I think the removal of peak position information is unwarranted and eliminates information not available easily unless it is included in the tables.  The relevant line from the driective is:  "Weeks spent at peak position should be mentioned within the article text and not inserted into the table."  Including any such text in the context of a discography would mean replicating prose that  belongs in album articles and lead to (I believe) unreadable text.  Ergo, if it is included here it should be  in the tables.  Inclusion of the data serves as an additional means to compare album popularity making it useful and thus deserving of reinstatement.  Comments? Rubioblanca 13:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As an Emmylou Harris fan, I love the idea of making as much data available as possible about her career, but I personally couldn't care less about her chart performance; her artistry thrives despite the music industry, not because of it. Fifty years from now, a lot of people will care about what songs she collaborated on, but will anyone but a stats-obsessed few care how many weeks Wrecking Ball spent in the top 200? And for those few, there will probably be Wikicharts data they can download into the chip implanted in their brains. Seriously, I lean toward following the guidelines but don't feel strongly about it. If you think it shouldn't apply to certain articles, such as discographies, you could ignore it—but you might consider making a case at Talk:Record charts for changing the guidelines, instead of making an exception for this discography. Rivertorch 19:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd say you've made a valid call. Rivertorch 05:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music chart data 

message: A Recent change shrunk the table widths in the album section (rationale was for neatness).  The original widths were set for consistency (another type of neatness) as per Wisekwai's work with the other appearances tables.  So, which is neater:
Tables all the same width (approximately).
Tables as narrow as possible (use width="auto")
Comments? Rubioblanca 13:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I remember correctly, my rationale for fixing the column widths on the appearance tables was for consistency's sake on the appearance tables. I wasn't taking into account the look of the other tables. I think the "auto" width look just fine - the tables don't fill up any more space than they need to. The appearance tables have more information, and they need the whole width of the page show it. — WiseKwai 14:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This change makes Studio, Live and Compilation inconsistent sizes.  I was trying to live up to your example.  Sigh.  Rubioblanca 14:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see what you're driving at, and I appreciate the sentiment. :) I still don't have a problem with the different-sized tables. They are handling different kinds of data. To me, it's apples and oranges, or maybe in this case, canteloupes and watermelons. — WiseKwai 16:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't Studio, Live and Compilation more like MacIntosh, Granny Smith and Delicious?  Rubioblanca 16:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ha ha. Different varieties, yes. And even among them, there are different sizes, colors and flavors. — WiseKwai 16:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In interest of extending a metaphor to an absurd length:  but the size of the bushel they keep them in is the same. Also: let me make that Red Delicious, Yellow Delicous and some other color I can't think of Delicious (eliminate size and (mostly) taste as differences)? The table columns for three of the album types are identical.  The only reason the tables are different sizes is due to the length of the album titles and release labels, not because of any difference in content or type. Rubioblanca 17:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How's it look now?— WiseKwai 05:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I think it looks wonderful.  Good work!! Rubioblanca 18:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table Formatting 

message: A "too long" tag has been placed. I suppose the next step would be to split out the "other appearances" tables? — WiseKwai 14:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I read the directive, tables and lists are excluded from readable prose making the "too long" tagging spurious.  Here's the relevant line from the directive: "For stylistic purposes, only the main body prose[2] (excluding links, see also, reference and footnote sections, and lists/tables) should be counted toward an article's total size, since the point is to limit the size of the main body of prose." Rubioblanca 14:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I went ahead and removed the tag.  Rubioblanca 15:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool. — WiseKwai 17:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: Is it time to remove the 'Under Construction' tag?  Rubioblanca (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so. It's well constructed by now. — WiseKwai 17:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Under Construction Tag 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: For example - Emmylou Harris is not credited on the label of "Love Hurts" single. She is a session player there. You cant call it her guest single (as we cant call it James Burton guest single for example only because he played guitar on this one). Same for "Hangin' On", "Yesterday's Gone", "Thing About You"  - she's not credited there as an artist, she just session vocalist. See 45cat.com or discogs.com
On the other hand, "That Lovin' You Feeling Again" single label says "Roy Orbison & Emmylou Harris". So this single is equal partnership (collaboration), not guest appearance (guests usually credited as "feat" or "with" like in "Play Together Again, Again" or "We Believe In Happy Endings" singles for example). Same thing for "Wild Montana Skies" (John Denver and Emmylou Harris), "The Sweetest Gift"  (Linda Ronstadt and Emmylou Harris), "All Fall Down"  (George Jones and Emmylou Harris), "Love Don't Care" (Charlie Louvin and Emmylou Harris). She is not a "guest" there.
In the same logic "If I Needed You" is a collaboration single, not her own, because it labeled as "Emmylou Harris and Don Williams" (unlike "Gulf Coast Highway" which labeled "Emmylou Harris with Willie Nelson").
And the one last thing: She did't sell 5.5 millions in the US. There is no such info in the RIAA source. You can't just summarize 9 gold albums + one platinum as exactly 5.5. millions. Gold album means at least 500 thousands. She could sell 600 thousands, 700 thousands and more. Same logic for platinum records.  So the only correct way is to state that she sold 8 gold solo albums and 1 gold and one platinum collaboration albums. Additionally there are plenty of reliable sources say she sold 15 millions worldwide - it could be used too--Kursebi (talk) 12:35, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion in Singles and other issues