Talk:Fragging

message: Did fragging incidents actually occur in Vietnam?  I've heard that they were more myth than reality.
Read The Collapse of the Armed Forces, an article from the Armed Forces Journal. Figures from here show about a 1000.
By this way, I think we need a disambiguation page here. Fragging someone in a computer game is not as serious as fragging someone in the delta. We need two different articles. --Tphcm 03:47, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Looky here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14150285/
Most of the links no longer work.  During the Vietnam War there were numerous anecdotes of imaginative fraggings involving elaborate booby traps in unexpected locations and/or high ranking officers.  There were anecdotes of (unidentified) Majors and Colonels being fragged, and under circumstances that would leave little doubt that they were killed by some of their own troops, but subsequent research did not produce even one such incident.  It is probable that most of the stories were fictitious, invented to amuse or embolden disgruntle soldiers, or maybe intimidate unpopular officers. Sussmanbern (talk) 20:54, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Fragging in Vietnam

message: Perhaps a history of incidents that occured before the term "frag" was coined should be added.  There is a reference to an artillery shell put under the bed of Braxton Bragg, and I am sure more would be found with a little research.
p.s. Just cuz your holy Internet doesn't have info on frags in Iraq, means nothing, the majority of our stories there have yet to be told.
Tortuga 16:25, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Kinda agree, the term "frag" is definitely much more modern, but killing unpopular leaders was definitely common in history.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.103.172 (talk) 13:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historically 

message: Changed the language - it hasn't been confirmed yet that Israel deliberately shelled U.N posts. Also, whoever added that sentence needs to avail themselves of a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary.
:I removed the claim, deliberate or not I do not think it qualifies as Fraging.--Anss123 11:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course it is murder. Killing someone in a premeditated, non-judicial way is what constituates murder, and this is a blatant occurance of that very act. That it might garner support among the troops takes nothing away from that. --193.11.220.45 23:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lebanon 2006 

message: I removed from the article references to Hasan Akbar and Alberto Martinez.  Akbar's crimes do not fit fragging as described in the rest of the article.  Also, the link to Martinez links to a drug lord, so I'm assuming it is not the same person.  No references were cited.
Matt the heathen 64.42.209.81 17:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq 

message: Just because a blowhard like Chris Matthews suggests Pat Tillman was fragged does not mean his death should be added to the list of incidents. All we have is suspicion at this point. The Tillman reference should only be under popular culture.
--76.173.72.21 05:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pat Tillman 

message: During the 1862 siege of Harpers Ferry during the Antietam Campaign of the American Civil War, the Harpers Ferry garrison commander, Col. Dixon Miles, was mortally wounded by a shell believed to have been deliberately fired by his own men. I think this is the first known case of fragging in an American army. Jsc1973 04:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a claim by one historian, but the official version is a little more forgiving. I'd want something more than supposition, I think, to include such an event. --Dhartung | Talk 05:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harpers Ferry 1862 

message: Does Gomer Pyle shooting Hartman really count as a fragging, though? I mean, Gomer was more or less mentally deficient at the time, and would probably have shot anyone else that entered the room, up to the prsident or the pope, or indeed himself if no-one had arrived. Not really the deliberate murder of an higher-rank that the article seems to describe otherwise.213.113.252.120 (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full Metal Jacket 

message: This article cites sources on fragging studies: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2877/did-soldiers-really-frag-officers-in-vietnam Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  straight dope 

message: Does the term "fragging", in current parlance, only refer to the murder of superiors, or could the term refer to the murder of an unpopular grunt?  In today's Daily Dish, Andrew Sullivan publishes a letter from a career military man in which it is claimed that an out-of-the closet homosexual soldier is likely, in many cases, to be "fragged" due to his sexuality (this is part of an ongoing debate on DADT).  Sullivan, not that familiar with US military culture, mistook "fragging" to be a synonym for hazing, and suggested that banning DADT would permit a soldier so "fragged" to report it up the chain of command without fear of discharge from the military.  After numerous readers corrected Sullivan, noting that to be fragged is to be killed, he posted a correction, and linked to this article.
The use of "fragged" in this conversation was not in the context of a superior officer, but of an unpopular platoon-mate.
Comments?
--192.65.41.20 (talk) 22:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only superior officers? 

message: It's been a long time since I've seen the film Animal House.  What relevance does it have to this article?192.234.13.58 (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animal House 

message: This is a remarkably candid article that acknowledges murders occurring in the battlefield among a country's service men and women. What this piece lacks is any sort of official response on the part of the military about these incidents. It's very much a one-sided article.
The article seems to rationalize and normalize this behavior and the lack of hearing what the military's stance is on this makes it seems like it's an unfortunate but accepted practice (when this clearly can't be their official position).
It would also help to know if this practice happens in armed forces of other countries and whether it's more common in countries where this is obligatory military service (a draft) vs. countries with voluntary military service. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 03:04, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not agree that the article encourages murder. It should however be rewritten to improve grammar and logical structure.Royalcourtier (talk) 05:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone of the article 

message: Is it really appropriate to compare the lack of repercussions to the decimation of Roman legions? 
It seems completely out of place, no relevance to the article at all. 
It implies Roman punishments worked and that they would have worked in a similar way if applied to the US army, which is all conjecture.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rottint (talk • contribs) 17:16, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman comparison? 

message: This article is a bit of a mess to be honest. One it has a lot of repetition, two it is never clear as to what fragging actually entails. That is, is it only superior offices, as other commenters have asked? The opening article definition doesn't state that it is murdering members of one's own fighting units, which is a part of the definition, isn't it? And does it only include secretive murder, or does any intra-unit killing count, such as overt shooting sprees? And thirdly, a lot of it has no sources at all and some of it seems to repeat common myths about the military. I'm going to go through and clean up the worst. Please comment here if you disagree with my edits. Ashmoo (talk) 11:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length, clarity and sources

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I was surprised to find that the Fort Hood shootings were never added to the list of incidents (or even discussed) despite the 2009 Fort Hood shooting being listed in the "see also section". According to the definition given in the lead, fragging is not necessarily specifically done with a fragmentation grenade - "The term fragging is now often used to encompass any means used to deliberately and directly cause the death of military colleagues." so only reason I can think of is for not to including it is that it may not fall into the strictest definition of the word. I don't have access to the source in the lead, but most dictionaries that I do have access to (listed below) define it as being with a grenade or similar explosive device. However, Webster’s New World College Dictionary says "esp. with a hand grenade" implying not necessarily so (wiktionary.org & educalingo.com don't mention grenade at all, but not sure if they count for anything). Encyclopedia.com cites "The Oxford Companion to American Military History" which says "...A broader definition encompasses murder by a variety of other means, including mines, shooting, and hit and run with a vehicle..." (which I looked up and will add to the article). If only examples that fall into the strict definition are being included, several of the examples should also be removed, if not, I don't see any reason that the Fort Hood shootings shouldn't be added.
List of definitions:
"to kill or wound (a fellow soldier or superior officer) deliberately with an explosive device." - Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 2014
"to intentionally kill or wound (one's superior officer, etc.), esp. with a hand grenade." - Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 2014
"To wound or kill (a fellow soldier) by throwing a grenade or similar explosive at the victim" - American Heritage® Dictionary 2016
"to deliberately injure or kill (one's military leader) by means of a fragmentation grenade" - Merriam Webster
"Deliberately kill (an unpopular senior officer) with a hand grenade." - lexico.com Powered by Oxford
"kill with a grenade" - Ayto, John. "Words from the 1960s". public.oed.com.
Fragging is a term first encountered during the latter years of the Vietnam War. It refers to the killing of officers and noncommissioned officers using fragmentation hand grenades, often thrown into a sleeping area at night. A broader definition encompasses murder by a variety of other means, including mines, shooting, and hit and run with a vehicle.
- The Oxford Companion to American Military History, Oxford University Press 1999 & encyclopedia.com
Yaakovaryeh (talk) 22:07, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Fort hood shootings & definition of frag

message: A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :FARG-HE. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 21#FARG-HE until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Steel1943 (talk) 10:08, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "FARG-HE" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]