Talk:Welcoming Congregation

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Is Welcoming Congregation a UU-only program, or is it also used by churches like Community of Christ? If the former, the first sentence probably needs to include "UU" from the get-go, but I am not sure this is correct, hence no edit. Nae'blis 21:32:13, 2005-08-31 (UTC)
:The UUs use the name "Welcoming Congregation" but there are other "brands" of the same thing. To my knowledge, the CofC does not have such a programme, although they are a pretty liberal denomination on the matter (especially within the context of the Latter Day Saint movement). Carolynparrishfan 12:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I moved the UUA section to the bottom because this article is about gay-friendly churches and not just UUA congregations, I think MPS 20:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Based on the conversations of this talk page, I have created a  new article called LGBT-welcoming church programs that applies to general LGBT-welcoming programs. The current article will be about only the UUA program. MPS 03:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

message: Under "Names for Welcoming Congregations," you listed Oasis as the "Welcoming church progaram" for the Episcopal Church. Actually this is somewhat inaccurate. Oasis began in New Jersey; it was an organization founded by the Diocese of Newark in order to GLBT people welcome in the churches of that diocese, and while other dioceses have started an organization by the same name with the same agenda, this organization is not nationwide. Not all doiceses have organization like Oasis, and have organizations with the same mission but have a different name. On the other hand, Interity is a nation organization for GLBT Episcopalians. Integrity has various local chapters congregational circles, and diocesan and/or state mailing lists. So i think that Integrity should either be liste with or replace Oasis on the "Names for Welcoming Congregations"list in this article. 
Also, I think that you guys might want to consider changing the heading of this list from "Names for Welcoming Congregations" to something more accurate, because neither Integrity nor Oasis are progams authorized by the national church in the same way that the "welcoming Congregations" program is authorized by the UUA. And I think other organizations on the list are in the same boat.
Link to Integrity: 
I'm not sure why DignityUSA has a section to itself--I'm just going to make it one among the list, with a link to its own page. Also, it's confusing right now that a term specific to UUA is also used as a sort of general category for similar programs in other churches. I'm not sure how best to fix that.
Dybryd 06:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Welcoming Churches in the Episcopal Church 

message: See discussion on this between me and BrownHairedGirl at her talk page... --Haruo 09:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. I know there's an organization called "Homosexuelle und Kirche" in Germany, but that isn't so much an organization that existing congregations belong to as a congregation of its own. Your local chapter of HuK holds services at such-and-such church at such-and-such time (usually once a month) that are separate from that church's normal services. —Angr 09:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is an American encyclopedia, and this page deals with a specifically US term. As one would expect from an American encyclopedia, there is no reference to any usage outside the US nor any admission that this is a specifically US article. "Globalising" it is unlikely to do more than decorate a US article with a few non-US instances. If non-US contributors to Wikipedia see the need for pages about "welcoming congregations" in our own countries, we will doubtless create those pages, and hope to see them survive the judgement whether they are "notable" or "non-notable" by US standards. Yonmei 10:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, no. Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia, not an American one. (Notice how British spellings are allowed, for example.) This article deals with a phenomenon within the Unitarian Universalist church, which is worldwide. If another article is written on the phenomenon of Christian congregations making a special effort to welcome GLBT people, there's no reason that should be specific to the U.S. either. —Angr 11:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the English (language) Wikipedia, not the American one, actually. In addition, the UUA is largely an American/Canadian phenomenon; most British churches are either Unitarian or Universalist, for example. Check out http://www.uua.org/CONG/index.php for the relative distribution... -- nae'blis 12:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I avoided saying "this is the English Wikipedia" because it's ambiguous. This is the English Wikipedia, but not the English Wikipedia. —Angr 13:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Grahr. Right, thanks for the catch, I've edited my above comment. -- nae'blis 17:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Um, yeah. Two Americans pop up to tell me that Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia? No, it's not. This is an American encyclopedia, and I am just beginning to accept (with bad grace) that wiki editors of other nationalities will either break their heads against a wall trying to introduce a genuinely neutral, international viewpoint when that viewpoint is in contradiction to what most American wikieditors accept as "true", or give up trying. Editors in languages not commonly spoken in the US may get rather more editorial freedom, but for those of us editing English wikipages, we are tentatively adding information to an American encyclopedia, in the sure knowledge that Americans can decide it is "not notable" from an American POV and have it deleted, or that it will contract the US POV, be declared not-NPOV - no matter how neutral/accurate it is from an international POV - and have it edited to the American POV. We're outnumbered and we can't win: but at least we can formally make it clear that this is an American encyclopedia. In short: don't bother globalising it. It's American. Yonmei 15:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I see. I thought you were saying you thought Wikipedia was intended to be an American encyclopedia. Actually, you're saying you're bitter because you made a contribution that got removed, and you've decided to blame it on Americans. Okay, that's your prerogative, but it doesn't change the fact that Wikipedia's scope is indeed global and this article must be clarified as to it's supposed to be about a uniquely American phenomenon (a group of congregations belonging to the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations in North America) or a global one (any Christian congregation that welcomes GLBT members, anywhere in the world). —Angr 15:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, you as an American would interpret it like that, wouldn't you? And as this is an American encyclopedia, you get to consider your interpretation correct, and my experience easily dismissable as a non-American being "bitter" and "blaming the Americans". Wikipedia's scope is indeed global, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an American encyclopedia. Yonmei 16:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, kids, break it up. What's the problem here? We are deciding what this article is about... some interpretations are that it is about the  UUA (in the United States) welcoming program or about "LGBT church welcoming programs" in general. Are there other interpretations besides these two? If there are German denominations that have denominational programs to welcome LGBTs into their churches then that would fit the second interpretation. MPS 17:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: http://www.uua.org/obgltc/wcp/state.html says 500+ US congregations and 24 Canadian. I think this is a UUA/North American concept, and we need a different page for related programs in other churches/denominations/etc. List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality might be a good place to start. I do think this has a different scope from Homosexuality and Christianity, as we're talking about official programming, rather that theological attitudes per se (and also that it could encompass more than just Christian denominations). -- nae'blis 17:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See above thread on Bizarre UU-ecumenical hybrid MPS 17:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: (de-indent) I'm not sure I understand your tack here, Yonmei. The English (language) Wikipedia is designed to be inclusive of topics of possible relevance to English speakers, wherever they live. If you've encountered American-bias, I'm sorry to hear that, but I don't believe the answer is to give up and codify the bias. See also WikiProject Countering systemic bias for efforts to avoid this problem (which is indeed widespread). I have faith in my fellow editors that most of them, when shown the evidence you suggest, will choose a global scope over an American one. It is possible, you know, that the editors get it wrong from time to time. Don't let that sully your view of the entire project, please. -- nae'blis 17:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  And globalise article 

message: Similar programs in other denominations are known by a number of names, including:
*Baptist: Welcoming and Affirming
*Church of the Brethren, Mennonite Church USA, and Mennonite Church Canada: Supportive Communities Network
*Christian Church (Disciples of Christ): Open and Affirming.
*Community of Christ: Welcoming Community Network.
*Episcopal Church USA: Integrity, Oasis
*Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada: Reconciling in Christ
*Metropolitan Community Church: MCC is a church centered in the LGBT community.
*Presbyterian Church (USA): More Light
*Roman Catholic Church: DignityUSA works for inclusiveness in the Catholic church, but is not associated with particular congregations.
*United Church of Canada: Affirm United/S'affirmer Ensemble
*United Church of Christ: Open and Affirming (abbreviated ONA)
*United Methodist Church: Reconciling Ministry
Of the above, the ones I can see right away that have established similarities would be Metropolitan Community Church, United Church of Christ's ONA program, and certain Quakers. IntegrityUSA is a grassroots group, not a church-sanctioned program. -- nae'blis 22:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In deciding what's "similar", are we only going with church-sanctioned ones?  Reconciling Ministries Network isn't church-sanctioned, but it ~is~ a program whereby congregations can declare themselves welcoming to LGBTQ people.  --Alynna 23:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other Denominations

message: Based on the recent edit by  nae'blis moving non-UU content to the talk page, I have decided to take the initiative to create a new article called LGBT-welcoming church programs. I will also attempt to look at the "what links here" section of this article to reroute non-UU specific links to the new article. MPS 03:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool.  Good solution. --Alynna 03:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Thanks a lot for taking the trouble with this. Dybryd 21:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: LGBT-welcoming church programs

message: I don't know where best to reply to a discussion that's nearly two months old, but I suspect there are valid historic reasons for keeping this page with its current name and subject: Unitarian Universalists (the North American variety) quietly adopted a variety of proactive positions toward LGBT equality before many of these issues entered mainstream public discussion.  As far back as the early 1970s individual UU ministers started performing same-sex unions.  The denomination announced official opposition to AIDS discrimination in 1986.  They seem to have been the first in most of these regards, which makes a good argument for their program to be a non-disambuguated article. DurovaCharge! 02:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A tardy comment 

message: Do we need this article and Unitarian Universalist views of homosexuality both?  Neither are very long, and the subject matter is too closely related for separate articles.  I suggest we merge them together with a new name inclusive of all LGBT with discussion of Welcoming Congregations as well as UU congregations not part of the program.  Aleta 11:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds reasonable, given the length of the articles.  Do you have an idea for a new title? --Alynna 05:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Why would it need a new name? What's wrong with Unitarian Universalist views of homosexuality for the whole thing?   Sean Lotz  talk  07:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Strange, since I'd consider WC as the proper title, being a self-defined label ("common name") rather than one chosen for parallel structure with other article titles. But I do agree there's no need for two articles; if the Unitarian Universalist views of homosexuality doesn't fully belong here, part of it should go in the main UUA article. -- nae'blis 15:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My reason for suggesting the "UU views" name is that it seems more natural for the article to be about the organization's views, "Oh, and here is a program which shows the practical application of those views," rather than, "Here's a program the UU has, and that means that they think thus and such about homosexuality." But it's not anything I would argue at great length. And I would certainly want a redirect from "WC" to "UUVoH".  Sean Lotz  talk  01:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd choose "UU views..." over WC as the name for the merged article, as WC is part of UU views/position rather than the other way around.  But is it more appropriate to keep it as "homosexuality", or be more inclusive of the whole LGBT community, as UUA surely is?  Maybe "Unitarian Universalism and LGBT persons"? --Alynna 05:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like Alynna's proposed title.  In general, (1) I think the name needs to be inclusive of all LGBT, as UU is, and (2) WC isn't appropriate because not all UU congregations are part of that program, even if they are welcoming with a small 'w'. Aleta 23:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger proposal

message: This disambig page is currently located at Welcoming Congregation, and Welcoming congregation is a redirect to LGBT-welcoming church programs.  I think it might make more sense to have the disambig at Welcoming congregation, and redirect Welcoming Congregation either to the disambig or to the appropriate section of Unitarian Universalism and LGBTQ persons.  What do other people think? --Alynna 21:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location of disambig