Talk:Tel al-Zaatar massacre

message: According to this site:  http://www.1stbusinesslebanon.com/civilwar/civil1.html  it was a pitched battle for months.  A massacre implies  killing of civilians, not those involved in hostilities 75.164.41.248 (talk) 04:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who Labeled this a 'massacre?'

message: Was an explanatory paragraph deleted?  It's not clear to me whom the combatants were in this. 68.40.65.164 (talk) 05:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confused 

message: I found no NPOV and reliable sources labeling the "Battle" of Tel al-Zaatar (as known in the Lebanese jargon) a massacre. Please discuss this issue here. Fadib83 (talk) 02:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That's funny. A google book search reveals that there are a number of reliable sources that characterize what happened as a "massacre". For example,
# Noam Chomsky citing David Shipler of the New York Times calls it the "Tel al-Zaatar massacre", and identified Elie Hobeika as one of three Phalange commanders responsible for it (the others, according to ABC News who also call it a "massacre" according to Chomsky, were Fady Frem and Joseph Edde). 
# Gil Merom calls it the "The August 1976 Christian massacre of Palestinians in Tel-Al-Zaatar..."
# Michael Hanne describes how the "right-wing Christian militias" were "responsible for the mass murder of Palestinian refugees during the Tel-Al-Zaatar massacre..."
Do you need more examples? Do you have sources that claim that it was not a massacre? If not, I think it's pretty clear that there is reliable and verifiable information that supports the use of "massacre" in this article. The NPOV tag should be removed. Tiamuttalk 14:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

text: The books you pointed to do not seem to mention how many Palestinians were killed during the so-called "massacre". If it is so (in)famous, how come three book authors could not back their claims with numerical evidence? On the other hand, I found these videos: http://www.ina.fr/archivespourtous/?vue=notice&from=fulltext&full=zaatar&num_notice=2&total_notices=19 and http://www.ina.fr/archivespourtous/index.php?vue=notice&from=themes&cs_page=0&cs_order=0&code=C0524219454&num_notice=5&total_notices=18 (in French) about the evacuation of wounded from the camp. None of them mentions a massacre but they all describe the hardship endured by Palestinian civilians during fifty days or so of continuous fighting. Fadib83 (talk) 00:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Many massacres lack clear statistics on the number of people killed, particularly when the events took place within the context of a civil war (i.e. in a context where an authoritative, responsible body who could garner such statistics is lacking). This discussion is however largely irrelevant. There are three reliable sources who use the term "massacre" to refer to the event in question. Per WP:NPOV and WP:ATT, our job is to report the viewpoints existent among the reliable sources, rather than engage in personal judgments as whether or not their assessment is correct. Tiamuttalk 07:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

text: So, given the lack of response, I will assume that the concerns you raised have been answered and remove the tags you placed in the article. I would ask that you not restore them and instead tag ndividual sentences you find problematic or in need of better sourcing so that we can work on improving the article. Tiamuttalk 21:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  My understanding is that a massacre happens when civilians are murdered in mass outside the battlefield; in Tel al-Zaatar, the civilian casualties were mostly due to the fighting going on between the Phalange and the Palestinian fighters. Further, I have found some reliable sources labelling what happened there as a battle (http://books.google.fr/books?id=VrXpeELOUNsC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=tel+al+zaatar+battle&source=web&ots=MS3qS-DL0b&sig=MTmcpNkcUI_MJHXX9Y-LagpFXY0&hl=en and http://books.google.fr/books?id=wwntdx2IFAEC&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&dq=tel+al+zaatar+battle&source=web&ots=xvvCIfoaEL&sig=DgDmjyawb-A2Qm3Sxoelp3_CYe0&hl=en). One more thing: you didn't comment on the videos I linked to in my earlier post. Fadib83 (talk) 00:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: Why is the "Israeli military" listed as a "Perpetrator" in the info box?  Israelis are not even mentioned in the article.Wilson44691 (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Since I had no answer, I've reverted the last edit. Wilson44691 (talk) 10:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perpetrators? 

message: We counted the dead from the families who told us, they mounted up to about 230 civilians killed. I don't know who just added a zero at the end to make it in thousands, but nobody in Lebanon ever called it a 'massacre'. Certainly there were massacres committed, but Tel el-Zaatar was not one of them.
I can't even find one single article about the Lebanese Civil war that doesn't have biased claims with biased sources, and I always find opposing points of view and contradicting claims in the same article. Since this problem can't be solved, why not just make two articles about the battle, each one with the POV of each side?
:Not verifiable. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:48, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just curious, what country you from? Just curious that's all. --Propaganda328 (talk) 16:25, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  I was with the Red Cross at the time 

message: In order to make a page move, one should follow the instructions at WP:RM. Unilateral page moves without any talk page discussion isn't a good way to move forward. Particularly when the sources cited in the article and on the talk page support Tel al-Zaatar massacre (the original page name) rather than Battle of Tel al-Zaatar (where it is being moved). Please respect policy and procedure. Tiamuttalk 18:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't matter what people here call it. What matters is what reliable sources call it. There are three cited above in the section Talk:Tel al-Zaatar massacre#Disputed that call it a massacre. If you have some that call it a battle, please present them. Then go to WP:RM and mae a move request, following the instructions there, and opening a discussion here. Do not move it again yourself without presenting sources, discussing, gaining consensus for the change, etc. Tiamuttalk 18:23, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Procedure and policy 

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thread_title:  File:Palestinian refugees.png Nominated for Deletion 

message: If it was a massacre, it needs the massacre infobox, not the battle one. And if it was a battle, remove massacre from the title. Fix that, please.--HCPUNXKID 17:06, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Like most of these things, it was both. Initial battle turning into a massacre. So what matters is what most reliable sources refer to it as. I've mainly seen reference to the massacre. FunkMonk (talk) 17:16, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massacre or battle? 

message: I think this page needs to be moved to Battle of Tel al-Zaatar, even in light of the fair comment above. Yes, massacres frequently follow battles in many wars, but on Wikipedia the general rule is to incorporate the details of the massacre into an article about the actual fighting (the military engagement). Note the precedent set by such articles as the Battle of Cassinga, which has been alternatively described as the wholesale slaughter of a refugee camp or a raid on a guerrilla base when in fact it was a little of both. Cassinga is rather comparable to Tel al-Zaatar due to the fact that many, many sources call it the "Cassinga Massacre".  
Since Tel al-Zaatar seems to have been example of this - it wasn't a one-sided massacre by any means, but rather a battle that included a lot of excessive killing - I'm going to propose renaming it accordingly. --Katangais (talk) 13:23, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  New proposed move 

message: Howzit all.
The article has been moved to "Siege of Tel al-Zataar" as per the discussion I started above. I decided to go ahead with this bold move for three reasons: firstly, the article content describes not only a massacre that happened on August 12, but the preceding siege. I think it's important to note that this article isn't just about a massacre, but about a significant military engagement as well, which involved shooting on both sides. It would be different if the article concerned only the massacre bit without any reference whatsoever to the fighting, but since it covers both the title should reflect this accordingly.
Second, the article is essentially describing a state of siege which lasted at least five weeks and possibly months, depending on how you want to look at it. We are misleading the readership if we use a title that implies a single incident, i.e. "Tel al-Zataar Massacre", or "Battle of Tel al-Zataar". Rather, it was an event that dragged on for a considerable amount of time, involving multiple attacks, and ultimately resulted in a massacre.
Thirdly, there is a Wikipedia precedent in this regard which needs to be followed. Where military incidents are concerned, the term "massacre" is only used in the title if it was a one-sided massacre, for instance Massacre at Huế. Battles and sieges which involved large scale massacres are still typically described as battles and sieges, i.e. Battle of Cassinga. This ties in well with reason #1 as cited: describing what happened at Tel al-Zataar solely as a massacre is a blatant attempt to overlook the fact it was also considered an engagement.
Anyway if there's any objection to the move, feel free to discuss here. I'd be happy to take this to WikiProject MilHist if additional third party consensus is requested.
Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 19:07, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand by my rationale three years ago describing this as an armed conflict which resulted in large numbers of civilian deaths. It was not, however, a one-sided massacre like so many others in Lebanon, or a calculated act of terrorism which only targeted civilians. Please refrain from describing it as an act of terrorism without first discussing it here. Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 09:13, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this is and was known as a massacre; I am quite surprised that it was moved without a major discussion. Huldra (talk) 23:27, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Siege 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Why is one of the most infamous massacres of the 1970s called "Siege of Tel al-Zaatar"?
The name seem to have changed from Tel al-Zaatar massacre sometime after 2015, without much discussion? Comments? Huldra (talk) 23:24, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been undone given the lack of discussion for the move, regardless of how much time has passed. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, there's plenty of revisionism going unchecked. FunkMonk (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the original page and specifically asked for comments here first. Nobody responded to the discussion for years. I'm appalled by the notion that this was an undiscussed move; there was plenty of opportunity back then for other contributors to weigh in but they declined to do so. My rationale was that there was a military engagement between two opposing sides that were armed, not simply a one-sided execution of civilians (as the page title implies). --Katangais (talk) 17:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It was never discussed by way of an RM, which is the conventional way of seeking community input on a controversial move, which this certainly falls into the category of. No input by way of no one noticing a discussion is not silent consensus to proceed. Without an RM, editors from relevant WikiProjects were far less likely to notice it. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:30, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Activity on this article and its talk page was so low when I made the move that I didn't see the rationale for an RM. Typically I open a discussion on the talk page and solicit views, and if it seems the move is controversial we can take it to a third forum (as I offered to do in my initial comments; indeed, I said I was happy to take the discussion to MILHIST if the move was controversial). This wasn't a subtle way of getting around community consensus because there didn't appear to be one at the time. This also begs the question that if the move was so controversial, why did the page name remain unchanged and unchallenged for almost ten years? --Katangais (talk) 19:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of Middle East history is pretty poorly covered and patrolled. No real surprises to be found there. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of article 

message: The first sentence of this article claims that he translation of Tel al_Zaatar is "Hill of Thyme". Since there exists a Za'atar article, which explains that "zaatar" is a name for several related genera of which thyme is only one, wouldn't it be more prudent to translate as "Hill of Za'atar"? Alternatively, if we feel there is a need to stay close to the familiar, we could pipe it as follows: "Hill of Thyme". Debresser (talk) 01:15, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thyme 

message: Please note that Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters states against "result" that "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." The infobox has been amended to reflect this. Please read the template "result" guidance in full before amending or reverting. It would probably be best to discuss any proposed change here first to seek consensus. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:13, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox "Result" 

message: The conflict in and around Tel El Zaatar lasted for Seven whole months,with the actual massacre taking place after the siege has ended.
Tel El Zaatar was a PLO sector filled with terrorists and not a defenseless camp. The first half of the 2,000-3,000 attested death toll occurred from armed conflict that preceded. I request it is changed back. Jrarxese (talk) 17:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's a Siege not a Massacre