Talk:Character changes during Infinite Crisis/Archive 1

message: This archive page covers approximately the dates between February 2006 and April 2006.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Character changes during Infinite Crisis/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 11:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

message: If you look at IC3, Alex is watching a screen and it appears than Iron of the Metalmen has been ripped to pieces?
:The Metal Men are robots; not only they can't really be killed, but they got torn apart very frequently in their original adventures, only to be quickly repaired; it was some type of an in-joke. Wilfredo Martinez 14:07, 10 
February 2006 (UTC)
True but in current continuity they are actually people who are stuck in robot bodies that CAN be killed (they have an object called a responsometer inside them, that if destroyed would mean they are died). Unless that revelation has been wiped from history?
--Charlesknight 17:12, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Metal Men?

message: When was Amethyst confirmed alive? There are so many rumors rampant that someone making that assertion should consider mentioning their source, at least here on the discussion page, until the information gets more widely disseminated. 
*Actually, if we don't want to crowd the article with citations, the place to note your source would be in your edit summary, like Lokicarbis did when removing Risk. (According to one contributor, Amethyst was confirmed alive in the DoV Special.) Wryspy 05:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Amethyst and Rumors 

message: I'm wondering if, now that we don't have to worry about the size issue so much, the scope of this article shouldn't be widened to include characters who were either de-powered or powered up as a result of events in Crisis or its leadups.  What do people think?  Lokicarbis 04:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expanded Scope 

message: Donna died in "Graduation Day" and was revealed, in the epilogue of that story, to have been reborn elsewhere.  True, we didn't see her again until the miniseries, but that was always a matter of when.  I think that, as with the Jason Todd entry, listing both stories is valid.  Lokicarbis 13:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donna Troy 

message: First, I have trouble seeing how a character left near a Lazarus Pit could ever count as being presumed dead. Nonetheless, I didn't read that comic, so I'm not going to tread on what someone else wrote. However, I must ask: Was that issue of Batgirl reallly an Infinite Crisis tie-in? Wryspy 18:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, so I just took her out altogether. --Rocketgoat 06:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now she's 'Jade Dragon', should that go in under Aftermath?  It's (probably) a OYL thang. -- Ipstenu 16:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would leave that out. OYL is not IC, nor is there anything so far to suggest that the events of Infinite Crisis were the impetus for her change. --Rocketgoat 19:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As of Birds of Prey's April release, Yes, Shiva's change is a result of a OYL deal, changing places with Black Canary.ThuranX 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lady Shiva

message: Sorry if I messed anything up its only my second time submiting anything. 
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the first Cheetah die at the hands of the current Cheetah in Wonder Woman a few issues back? It was around the time of Wonder Woman's trial. I don't remember what issue it was off the top of my head but I'll post what issue it was later if someone doesn't beat me to it. --DyslexicDan 20 February 2006
:Flash #219. It eventually ties onto Villains United, so I'll just add her. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 04:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cheetah I 

message: Apperently, there's solicits for a new Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighers title. Since this means Uncle Sam is coming back, someone want to make some adjustments, or what? DoctorWorm7 03:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would be a mistake to automatically assume the Uncle Sam that comes back is the same one as the one that died. --Rocketgoat 05:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, again, the April issue of Wizard, with its extensive Crisis and 52 coverage, made mention of Uncle Sam being the only surviving member of the Freedom Fighters (save the Ray, of course) and having to recruit a new team. 129.120.169.132 02:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncle Sam 

message: I'm not going to get into an editing war. I feel that if Pariah has not been confirmed dead in the comics, he has not been confirmed dead. As strange as this sounds, it does not matter what the writer intended. DC can decide to allow anything they like. Other writers can choose to act on the fact that comics never confirmed the death. He is PRESUMED dead but unconfirmed, exactly as the heading says, and therefore does not belong among the confirmed dead. Wryspy 19:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What silly logic. He was shot at point-blank range.  (What does it take for you to consider comic book characters to be dead?) Geoff Johns then made it clear that his immortality doesn't work anymore, and that he's dead, dead, and dead. The fact that other writers might reverse this means precisely nothing; a writer could easily alter Pantha so that she could survive having her head knocked off. Doesn't change the fact that she's currently considered to be dead. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 23:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People get shot at point-blank range and survive. In real life, people survive getting shot at point-blank range. It's not a good thing, but it happens. Pariah has still shown powers of some kind post-Crisis. What Johns said in an interview is not what anyone has said within the official canon. You are PRESUMING he's dead, and for good reason. I'm not saying he's alive. I don't give a damn. I'm saying he's listed in the wrong column. His death has not been confirmed in the comics. Wryspy 20:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Even if he were confirmed dead (which he's not), he's still in the wrong column because that happened during the lead-up, not during Infinite Crisis. Wryspy 20:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll just add here what Wryspy alluded to earlier, but make it explicit.  Pariah was most definitely still immortal in War of the Gods.  Make of it what you will....--G.B. Blackrock 17:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wryspy, by your 'writers can do anything in the comics, this entire page is inaccurate, and thus needs to be submitted to AfD. Pariah is dead. The writers have confirmed it. As to the 'tricky wording', the only one with any possibility of return is Sue Dibny, given the unresolved nature of her conflict with Ray Palmer. Otherwise, let's assume the writers are being straightforward and that Pariah is dead. Of course he could come back with the reemergence of Hypertime, or a shattering of the univers when superboy (inevitably) breaks out of the heart of the SunEater, but let's leave that update for when it happens?ThuranX 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pariah 

message: 1 - Martin Stein merging with Jason Rusch to help him become a better Firestorm is apparently a temporary change (as it would be derivative of the Ronnie Raymond version of Firestorm). Jason Rusch's Firestorm Matrix apparently still works as it did when he was merged with Mick Wong: he needs another person to transform into Firestorm, but it doesn't need to be Stein. His "Matrix partner" One Year Later will apparently be Firehawk. Should we remove Jason Rusch from the "Changed heroes list" or modify it to include something to the effect of "Jason Rusch/Firehawk version of Firestorm (debut pending)"?
2 - I'd also like to know what is everyone's opinion on listing deaths and returns from 52 on this page? --Ace ETP 03:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Martin Stein's link is still an active issue in Forestorm at the OYL point. I concur that adding the Firehawk change is worthwhile, esp. in light of the one mile or burst limitation that Jason suffers.ThuranX 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

text: 52 has its own page - surely it would make more sense to list them there?  Lokicarbis 03:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I changed the Firestorm entry to say "Jason Rusch and Professor Martin Stein designed a revamped Firestorm together (Firestorm #22)".  I think this works better, since you're right.  --Rocketgoat 05:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Listing deaths and returns from 52 on its own page might make more sense than listing them here...but since the time jump to "One Year Later" (and therefore, the events of 52) will happen between issues 5 and 6 of Infinite Crisis rather than between the end of Infinite Crisis and the beggining of all One Year Later story arcs, aren't the events of 52 technically consequences of Infinite Crisis? This is supported by the fact that the cover for the first issue of 52 seems to indicate that Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman have left in some sort of way, while the cover for Infinite Crisis #7 seems to indicate that they have returned. Plus, do we really need two different pages for listing consequences of events which are inevitably tied into each other? --Ace ETP 20:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this is not the place to list deaths and changes associated with 52. Listing 52 here would be like saying everything that ever happens in DC comics from now on must be listed here. At the end of #7, this page should lock up. Wryspy 20:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (Added for clarity - The 'time jump to "One Year Later" (and therefore, the events of 52)' refers to release dates of said issues, not to continuity.)ThuranX 01:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, the jump to one year ahead seems to be affecting every DC title except Crisis (and a couple of spin-offs).  I think we should be including material about the spinoffs here, but that's about all.  Also, Wryspy, hate to disagree, but this page shouldn't lock at the end of #7 - sooner or later, there will be reprint details to add :)  Lokicarbis 01:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Wouldn't reprint details appear in the main Infinite Crisis article rather than here? Also, we might help settle the issue of what should be counted as "Consequences of Infinite Crisis" if at the end of the series, we change the name of this article to something like "Immediate Consequences of Infinite Crisis". Long-term consequences will go on forever. If someone wants a long-term consequences article, that's up to them, but the historic record of the immediate impact would become lost if we include all of that information in the same article. Wouldn't it? Wryspy 16:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true that we shouldn't go overboard in listing events. But by suggesting we list events and returns from 52 here I'm in no way saying that this page should become some sort of repository of knowledge of the Post-Infinite-Crisis DCU. I'm merely saying that since events depicted in 52 will chronologically happen between two issues of Infinite Crisis, wouldn't anyone who dies or returns within the pages of 52 be said by the heroes of the DCU to have died or returned during "that long Crisis with the alternate Earths in the sky and the Superboy who liked to decapitate people"? Don't you think that that makes them deserve a place in this page? Why is it that if someone dies in the penultimate or final issue of Infinite Crisis, they will be added to this list, but if they die within a series illustrating events in between, they won't? If DC later decides to publish a daily comic called 365, and we see in an issue that during unseen event between IC #6 and IC #7 the Inferior Five were accidentally stepped on and crushed to death by Giganta, won't we have to go back and add them to the list of deaths? --Ace ETP 03:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we can all see that your example is pretty exaggerated.  Besides, 52 is telling the 52 weeks after Infinite Crisis, not filling in events that occurred during it.  In my opinion, only events from the titles that are labeled as "Infinite Crisis Tie-In" should be considered on this page, that's why I've taken off entries for Black Mask, Speedy and others.  Sure, they died while Infinite Crisis was going on, but it wasn't necessarily related.  --Rocketgoat 03:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you completely sure the year of events 52 will fill us in happen after Infinite Crisis rather than during between two issues of it? I'm sure I remember some solicitations and interviews indicating otherwise. Plus, as I've pointed out before, Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman are "missing" in 52, and "returning" in the One Year Later titles, with the cover for the seventh issue of Infinite Crisis seemingly indicating their return will be featured within its pages. Doesn't this make Infinite Crisis #7 the first OYL issue of a DC comic? --Ace ETP 06:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only cover I've seen for IC #7 is the one with three broken shards of glass, each with a hero's insignia on it. That cover would suggest to me that the three heroes are not returning, but rather drifting away. As far as I understand it, IC is going to stay chronologically in the same year it has always been, while OYL books jump ahead. The last page of IC #5 certainly lends a sense of immediacy to the coming issues, so I don't see them jumping ahead a year for issues #6 and #7. Further, Batman and Robin returned in the first OYL issue of Detective, so it stands to reason that Superman and Wonder Woman will follow suit. --Rocketgoat 20:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two minor issues 

message: We seem to have agreed that we this article should lock up after Infinite Crisis #7 is published, but I'm sure problems regarding this page will continue after that. For example, if the Uncle Sam that to be featured in the Freedom Fighters Crisis Aftermath series ends up being the one we have listed as presumed dead and reported missing, there most likely will be some people trying to remove him from this page, which I think would not only be incorrect, but misleading and against convention. Here are my reasons: the list of casualties in the Crisis On Infinite Earths page still has Supergirl, the Crime Syndicate and Angle Man, although they were all later retconned back into existence. And the list of casualtines in the Our Worlds At War page has Aquaman, Steel and Guy Gardner, although they all either returned from the dead or were retconned as only having been critically injured. So, despite all those later changes, the deaths of those characters were still consequences of those series, and that's why they are listed. Following that logic, there's a reason why even if every single character who has died or gone missing during Infinite Crisis is resurrected or comes back in the first comic book published after its conclusion, they should all remain on this page. Otherwise, someone picking up the absolute edition trade paperback two years from now will find this page lacking in information, as it won't list several characters who were changed while it lasted. In a nutshell, characters being changed back after the end of Infinite Crisis shouldn't be relevant. We could additional information for any character changes being reversed, but we shouldn't remove any character listed so far. Does everyone agree? --Ace ETP 19:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-Infinite-Crisis fate of this page 

message: I had originally put in brief details of deaths for the relevant entries which was promptly reverted on the basis that "details on particular deaths can be found on that character's individual page".  I feel it would be useful to put in small blurbs describing each character death.  I don't consider it especially redundant and, frankly, it would make this article more complete.
:Yeah, but we already had small blurbs for everyone.  It just cluttered up the page, so I'm of the opinion that the information is better left on character pages, which are all conveniently linked. --Rocketgoat 03:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm with Rocketgoat. For the purposes of this article, such blurbs would add nothing but something to edit and argue about. Anybody who cares about the details can follow the links to specific characters' individual articles. Wryspy 04:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Blurbs? How about just a word or two? Not all those "links to specific chaters' individual articles" lead anywhere. Doczilla 06:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then that's a problem with that character's page, not this one.  If you want to add details to a character's death, do it on their page.  If they don't have one, make it.  --Rocketgoat 18:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brief Death Descriptions 

message: I agree that that a lot of the characters added to the Missing List because of IC#6 have been done so prematurely. There is not enough information to support this claim, only that "Ion" does not know where they are. The scenes at the beginning of Teen Titans #34 are not conclusive either, appearing to be a record of Cyborg's memories of the past year in sequential order, allowing for the theory that they occurred immediately after the scene in IC#6. CovenantD 18:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still changed the comment after the names of the people in Donna Troy's crew from "debatable" back to "disappeared", as there is essentially nothing which is debatable about their status (unlike say, that of Captain Nazi). Though I initially opossed listing them, I've realized we're only stating that their dissapearance is a fact (and therefore not debatable), not that their death is a fact (which would be debatable, because despite some characters such Starfire still being missing in One Year Later issues, 90% of the New Cronus crew either appear or are inferred to in One Year Later issues, or are expected to appear in 52).  --Ace ETP 19:53, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally disagree with changing it from debatable. I've read enough comments to know how debated the IC#6 characters are. I think their appearance or mention OYL is enough to throw doubt that they've in fact "disappeared." CovenantD 20:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are two notes on that main page that should be considered: "These characters either went missing or were implied to be dead during Infinite Crisis and lead-up storylines" and "Do not remove characters in case of return in the pages of "52", "One Year Later" or other Post-Infinite-Crisis comic books, as they will still be recorded as having gone missing."  Every character listed there from Infinite Crisis #6 is either missing or implied to be dead.  Further, the reappearance of any of those characters in 52 or One Year Later books does not negate the fact that they still belong on the list.  As for their status as "disappeared" or "debatable", I would say that they should be listed as "disappeared".  This indicates to the reader that they aren't necessarily presumed dead, since many of the characters are known to survive the ordeal, but they are certainly missing for an amount of time.  The debate users here are having isn't over whether they disappeared or not so much as it is over whether they should be listed since they return.  --Rocketgoat 21:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Their status is being debated right now, right here, and in the Editing War that was going on days before this discussion started.CovenantD 22:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Hopefully the note about the facts under Missing being in dispute should suffice for now. Obviously those disappearances are debatable, or else we wouldn't be debating them. Wryspy 01:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing/Not Missing 

message: To say "debatable" on every unconfirmed death renders the word meaningless. I removed the word but restored the previous "arguable given his invulnerability" remark on Captain Nazi for story reasons: Jason said he'd killed the old Nazi. However, given the character's powers and history, a taser to the eyes probably cannot kill him. So a character called him dead, but that character is probably wrong. It's not like Jason had a chance to check the guy's pulse.
I removed the immortal notation (which had been my own note, by the way) regarding the Royal Flush Gang's king. If their deaths are unconfirmed, why bother with the additional blurb? (There were a lot of blurbs back when I first wrote that.) Only if someone in the comics reported them dead would his death become arguable based on his immortality. Because he has not been reported dead, his death remains simply unconfirmed and nothing to argue about. People might argue about whether Captain Nazi's death was or wasn't confirmed. Wryspy 00:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A further kink: Captain Nazi appears in Khandaq in Villains United Infinite Crisis Special to face down Black Adam. Adam uses his thunderbolt to win the fight, but other than being unconscious, whether or not the Captain is dead, is not revealed. So, he survived the encounter with Red Hood, but then he was lightning-bolted by Black Adam. Cybertooth85 21:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unconfirmed Deaths 

message: Does anyone know if Bizarro Hawkman, Bizarro Wonder Woman or Bizarro Martian Manhunter made an appearance pre-Crisis? --Hemlock Martinis 20:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Returns

message: Should there be a section or separate article for continuity changes (Wonder Woman un-retconned back into JLA charter membership, Superman had Smallville adventures, Joe Chill arrested for Wayne murder), or maybe a separate article about them? After all, those continuity changes may ultimately be the biggest influences this story has on DC history. It's just a thought. Wryspy 21:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A short blurb in this article, under Aftermath, perhaps? And then a subsection Continuity changes after Infinite Crisis with the short checklist. -- Ipstenu 23:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Since this page is "character changes", it seems that sort of thing would be more appropriate in the normal IC page.  In my opinion, this page should be just for character changes so as to avoid a long list of deaths and such on the main page, but the direct in-story effects of Infinite Crisis should go on the Infinite Crisis page. --Rocketgoat 22:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Continuity Changes 

message: If you add or remove big chunks of information, make sure it's cited relative to IC. Do not remove everyone who has since IC shown up. This is for Infinite Crisis, not for redacting based on everything after IC. If that was the point, in five years, we could delete 95% of this, except for 'IC was a comics crossover, and Barry Allen is still dead.' But this isn't the way this article is to be handled. Major Disaster, for example, had his head rotated 180 with a snapping sound effect, then lays limp. Presuming death from a broken neck is reasonable, and until proved otherwise within the context of IC, leave it up, as well as all the other edits. Thank you, especially 69.177.182.182.  ThuranX 00:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Need for citation

message: I'm a little confused about why Zauriel got removed from the Unconfirmed Deaths list. Given comics history, most of those with unconfirmed deaths with eventually return and even some of those with confirmed deaths. I thought these lists were supposed to reflect what is known as of the end of Infinite Crisis #7, not our knowledge from 52, OYL, etc. We need to be consistent.
On the other hand, it is also possible that readers misunderstood what they saw regarding Zauriel and Looker, and that they were never supposed to seem dead in the first place. Looker's absence from oanel where Captain Atom reappeared could simply mean she got out of the way. If the depictions regarding Zauriel and Looker were simply misunderstood, then their story status was not supposed to be Unconfirmed Death. If something we learn from 52 or whatever clears up a misunderstanding, that's one case where I think it's fair to use that knowledge to edit this article, because it's simply helping us fix a mistake. Wryspy 17:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed Zauriel from the page because 52 #1 confirms he is alive.  To start, let me just say that I put Zauriel on the page to begin with, based on Superboy-Prime's line of "Go back to your creator, angel" (or something to that effect).  He isn't shown graphically dying or anything like that, his death is only hinted at from the dialogue, which is why I listed him as "unconfirmed".  The whole time, I expected that whenever there was a canonical reference to his life or death, I would update his status by listing him as confirmed dead or as alive.  My argument is that since 52 #1 takes place one day after Infinite Crisis, he should be taken off of the list.  He was clearly not meant to have died, as I had interpretted.  If we accept that only confirmation within Infinite Crisis counts, then pretty much any hero who was attacked and not shown again could technically be listed as unconfirmed dead.  With the case of 52 and Infinite Crisis, an editor-heavy series of stories, which again take place within 24 hours of each other, I think the reader is meant to infer that Zauriel did not die in Infinite Crisis.  --Rocketgoat 17:45, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Zauriel and Looker