Talk:Musunuri Nayakas

message: this is a well written article, and yet I feel like the title is deceptive. this is a piece of indian history (a well written piece to be sure) and not the biography of any one person in the story. I would suggest renaming.66.82.9.56 03:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good work

message: 59.93.48.55 should refrain from vandalism. Changes without giving reason will be reverted. 59.93.48.55 must login with User name and explain why he changed Kamma (caste) to Kapu (caste) with evidences. It should be noted that I gave proper evidence to Viswanatha Nayudu being Balija and suggested deletion of false info from the article on Kamma (caste). Please read the book: Durga Prasad, History of the Andhras Till 1565 A.D., P. G. Publishers, Guntur; page 168. Kumarrao 07:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: 192.216.42.56 must login as a Wiki user, reveal his identity and engage in meaningful discussion.
1. The book by Durga Prasad is accepted by all historians. It is cited in many articles on Wiki, including Vijayanagar empire, Andhra Pradesh history etc. All Universities in A.P., prescribe this book in History departments (E.G., Univ. of Hyderabad)
2. Musunuri Nayaks could not be Reddy because the very basis of selection of Musunuri Prolaneedu by Bendapudi Annaya Mantri and Kolanu Rudradeva was to avoid Reddy-Velama rivalry (This excludes Reddy and Velama claim to Prolaneedu. Suravaram was clearly wrong in his statement).
3. Musunuru village near Nuziveedu (Krishna Dt) is populated predominantly by Kamma farmers even today. There is a small dilapidated fort in the village. This region was part of Vengi Chalukya kingdom. After the rise of Kakatiyas on the ashes of Chalukyan empire, Musunuri warriors migrated to Warangal to serve Kakatiya kings.
4. Surname "Musunuri" exists only in Kamma and Brahmin communities of AP. (The only other claimant to Prolaneedu is Brahmin caste). Mr Kotta Bhavaiah Choudary in his "Kammavari Charitra" logically argued in this direction on the basis of Surname and Gothra.
5. The name of Prolaya Nayak's uncle (China Naanna) was Kamma Nayak.
6. Telugu historians generally agreed that Musunuri cousins were Kammas. Dr B.S.L. Hanumantha Rao in his "Andhrula Charitra" and Prof. Mallampalli Somasekhara Sarma, Former Head of the Department of History, Andhra Aniversity, also reiterated this view.
7. Anapota Nayaka, son of Recherla Singama Nayaka got the title "Kammadoralamodina Kaaladandama" after the demise of Kapaaneedu. (Nelaturi Venkataranayya's English translation of "Velugotivaari Vamsavali"). Obviously these Kammadoras were Kaapaneedu and his relatives.
8. "Velugotivaari Vamsaavali" also mentioned "Birudula Nirasinchu Kammadoralu", after the capture of Warangal by Padmanayakas. Kamma Nayaks declined the positions and power offered to them by victorious Velamas and migrated to Vijayanagar in view of good relations between Bukka Raya and Kapaaneedu. Obviously, the persons who were in control of Warangal at that point of time were Kamma Nayaks.
9. Many old-time Velama Zamindars always referred to Kapaaneedu as a Kamma rival. (I cannot offer tangible proof to this hearsay).
10. During the attack by Golkonda general 'Mir Jumla' on Gandikota Pemmasani China Thimma Nayudu invited his relatives of 66 Kamma clans to join him in the battle. He referred "Asahaayasoorulou Musunuri varu" in his letter. Obviously, Musunuri varu were Kammas.
11. MacKenzie's Krishna District manual was silent on Musunuris (Any evidence otherwise may be cited with proof).
12. Marital alliances were made for political purposes during medieval times.
Other info:
*Kakatiyas were not Kammas. I edited the article "Kamma (caste)" to that effect. 
*Madhura nayaks were Balija merchants. I edited the article to that effect. I also cited historical references.Kumarrao 08:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidences

message: Aside from the grammar, style, and tone (all of which need work) and the wikification (miscapitalisation, unwikified lead, etc.), the article is couched in very one-sided langauge; it makes very dogmatic statements about events with no sign that there might be alternative interpretations and views. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 22:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems 

message: 150.198.150.245 has been repeatedly editing without giving any explanation. He/she must consult the rerefence: "History of Andhras" by Durga Prasad. 
(http://igmlnet.uohyd.ernet.in:8000/gw_44_5/hi-res/hcu_images/G2.pdf). Kumarrao 09:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unexplained edits

message: 1. Durga Prasad clearly mentioned on page 168 that Musunuris belonged to fourth caste (Sudra, Kamma).See his webbook above.
2. K. B. Choudary (Kammavari Charitra, 1939) provided convincing evidence.
3. Suravaram was wrong. He did not cite any evidence.
4. McKenzie never talked about Musunuris. If he did, provide a citation.
A list of evidences/reasoning is available on this talk page.Kumarrao 11:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: Editing process is on. Citations are being provided in line.Kumarrao 11:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sufficient evidences for the ethnicity of Musunuri cousins exist.
This article modified by Kumarrao shows a bias towards the Kamma caste.I think this is not the way to show history..if u have refered to any history text books or wikipedia for instance the one who wrote for e.x Cholas,Pallavas,Madurai Nayaks etc never wrote saying that these are from so n so caste even if written never bragged the caste....You hav modified this article in order to praise or show bias towards the Kamma community...If u have mentioned only in the introduction as to who Musunuru nayaks are provided if u r pretty much sure about it it would been enough....  John Rambo 05:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Point out the bias with evidences. We can discuss.Kumarrao (talk) 06:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Mallampalli Somasekhara Sarma who unearthed the history of Musunuri cousins was also in agreement. Please see the proof before arguing.Kumarrao (talk) 06:59, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing

message: Dear Mr Rambo,
1. Please follow wiki guidelines. You are not signing your contributions with four tildes. Mere mention of your Wiki username will not do.
2. You have to refute the supporting arguments (see above; # 1-10) one by one.
3. The most important argument in favour of 'Kamma' theory is based on Surname. 'Musunuri' surname exista only in Kamma and Brahmin communities. Please show any evidence that it exists in Reddy or Kapu communities of AP.
4. Another important evidence comes from Rayavachakamu in which Pemmasani chief (Kamma) invited his relatives including "Asahaayasoorulou Musunuri varu" to join them in battle with muslims. Obviously, Musunuri warriors were Kammas.
5. Suravaram's thesis was totally wrong and unsupported by any evidence. If you have, please produce one.Kumarrao 14:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: For example author has claimed that Musunuri Kaapaya Nayaka "gave" autonmy to the Reddys and Velamas. This is the biggest joke. To their credit, Musunuri Nayaks collaborated with other Nayaks and Reddys and were responsible for fostering unity and "organized" a revolt against the invading muslims, but the Musunuri nayaks never controlled the whole region or other clans. Wanton glory is in vain :)Foodie 377 (talk) 13:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: This article is a glory hunting article,It has correct information but also indulges in blatant one-sided glorification

message: Please read Mallampalli (The Forgotten Chapter of Andhra History) and Telugu Vignana Sarvasvamu published by Telugu University to know about Musunuri Nayaks who led the confederation. If anything was glorious it was Mallampalli who wrote it. Kumarrao (talk) 14:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Musunuri Nayaks were the main organizers of the revolt, I am not disputing that at all. And they were leaders in the sense that they pioneered the revolt - no denying that also. BUT they are not leaders in the sense that they had absolute control over the entire region or other Nayaks and clans like the Reddys and Velamas. Thats precisely what I am disputing that when this article claims that "musunuri kapaneedu gave autonomy to Reddys and Velmas". That is not possible because Kapaneedu was not the absolute ruler to grant autonomy or Kapaneedu was not the ruler of the entire region. Reddys controlled their own territories and Velmas also had their own territories. He fostered unity among warring clans. Not sure that equates to autonomy Foodie 377 (talk) 16:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Read any book in Google books after "Musunuri nayaks". It becomes obvious who preceded whom and who were in control. If one understands the meaning of titles “Andhradesaadheeswara” and “Andhrasuratraana” given to Kapaneedu, it again becomes obvious the coverage of Andhra kingdom under Kapaneedu, although short lived. I leave it to the wisdom of Users/Editors of Wiki the final word. Let truth prevail.Kumarrao (talk) 15:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not like ambiguity. Lets break it down bit by bit. Musunuri Nayaks controlled Warangal for a short time. The Padmanayaka Velmas controlled Rachakonda. The Reddis controlled coastal regions and ruled from Kondavidu. They were separate entities. Its a big joke if you are claiming that Musunuris were the rulers of all these three regions which is 100% false. Thats precisely what I am challenging when the article claims that Musunuri Kaapanedu "gave" autonomy to Reddis and Velmas. Thats a false statement because Musunuris never controlled the regions of the Velmas and Reddis. Now second point, as regards to the titles "Andhrasuraatrana" etc, it does not substantiate anything. Those were just "figurative" poetic songs of praise hailing a great fighter in the hour of victory. They do not equate that he was monarch of whole Andhra. For example, after India won the cricket world cup, people said Sachin is the God of India and Dhoni is the King of India. Does that really make them Kings and Gods of India?  Foodie 377 (talk) 17:44, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Authentic

message: Who remove the kamma tag? It must be include.. All historians accepted that musunuri nayaks were belonged to kamma caste.. Please help.  8.37.225.141 (talk) 02:49, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kamma tag was removed... 

message: As others have said before me over the years, this article is a puffed-up mess. For starters, please note the content at Kakatiya dynasty#Aftermath - there are a lot of myths surrounding these people and they have been elevated to truths. - Sitush (talk) 09:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Puffery 

message: , Nayaka is the correct transliteration of their names, as you can see in Eaton and Talbot. The dropping of the vowel endings didn't happen until the Raj era. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not fussed, as long as we're consistent (and across articles, not just this one). Whatever COMMONNAME is, follow it. - Sitush (talk) 20:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

text: To clarify, I just followed the spelling in this article's title. - Sitush (talk) 20:20, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nayaka vs Nayak 

message: The page title reeks of casteim. Musunuri Nayaks is the standard term used by historians. Even if they were Kammas, for which there is no credible information, including the caste in the title is very inappropriate. For people, who changed the title, provide citations from valid sources or revert the title to the old name. Kekamohan (talk) 11:46, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page name needs to be changed 

message: I think this is a tall claim. Who are the "prominent" Andhra historians? Have any of them published in national or international venues? I see very few names among the historians that I have read, who are recognizably from Andhra. Cynthia Talbot and Rchard Eaton, who pay strong attention to South Indian history have contradicted numerous claims of the "Andhra historians". Finally, I find this statement in a national publication:
Since Kammanadu was in Guntur district and to the south of it, this pretty much rules out any connection between the Musunuri chiefs and the "kammas". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Andhra historians 

message: There have been all kinds of claims regarding what Somasekhara Sarma wrote in his book, based on snippet views and wild concoctions. Here is what he actually wrote:
In the first place, Sarma does not fit into what we regard as "modern historical scholarship". (See WP:HISTRS.) Modern scholarship in history starts around 1950, and the writings of the British Raj era were certainly not that. Secondly, I would say that Sarma is also a bit too enamoured with caste issues. Modern scholars are not. They certainly won't start classifying people based on surnames. But in the British Raj era, that was in vogue.
Given all that, we notice Sarma clearly saying that there are two Musunuru's. We don't know which Musunuru these Nayakas could have come from. I also want to point out that, even if they came from the Musunuru of Krishna district, that is still outside the traditional Kammanadu. So there is no a priori reason to presume that everybody that came from this Musunuru was a "Kamma".
Whether any "Kamma" identity existed at that time is also doubtful. No doubt the people that migrated to Karnataka (and the Chalukya seat of power) were identified as a "Kamma-X" based on their place of origin. This is not particularly different from a South Indian in Delhi today being identified as a "Madrasi". That does not mean that "Kamma" was a caste in much the same way as "Madrasi" is not a caste.
Coming back to the topic, Somasekhara Sarma is not one of the "Andhra historians" that has claimed that Musunuri Nayakas were Kammas. So, I am removing the citation from the main page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mallampalli Somasekhara Sarma 

message: A lot of the information that historians are basing their conclusions on comes from the Kaluvacheru grant of Anithalli. This grant says that Kapaya Nayaka had 75 subordinates (which is a formulaic figure as per Cynthia Talbot). It also says that Prolaya Vema Reddi was one of these subordinates who became independent after the death of Kapaya Nayaka.
Both Somasekhara Sarma and Rama Rao recognize the problems with this narrative.: "How this discrepancy arose and why such a wrong account was given in the Kaluvaceru grant is a mystery which is yet to be unravelled.": "It is thus impossible that Prolaya Vema could at any time have been a subordinate of the Musunuri chiefs."
* Vema Reddi was an independent ruler in 1325 in Addanki, at the southern end of the original Guntur district (now in Ongole district).
* We don't have evidence of Musunuri Prolaya Nayaka's rule before 1330 (Pithapuram Vilasa grant), but it could have also been sometime around 1325 because he really started from Rekapalle. 
* Kapaya Nayaka must have conquered Warangal soon after 1334. (See the Malik Maqbul page.)According to Elliott and Dowson, this was in 1344, but Malik Maqbul had already gone away to Delhi around 1334.
* Between 1325 and 1345, Vema Reddi was expanding his kingdom, coming all the way to the Godavari river. He probably started expanding it soon after he established his rule, driving out the Muslim garrisons in the area, but he appears to have continued doing so even after Kapaya Nayaka took over Warangal. So, Vema Reddi was hardly a "subordinate chief" of Musunuris, he was a competitor. 
* After the death of Kapaya Nayaka, all of East Godavari fell into the Reddi kingdom, so much so that a separate branch of the dynasty got established in Rajahmundry.
The Kaluvacheru was written in 1423, almost a century after the events. The fact that it misrepresents the timeline (moving Vema Reddi's independence to 1368 instead of 1325) badly damages its credibility. Either they got the whole hisory wrong, or they were wilfully misrepresenting it in order to make it appear as if the Reddis and Musunuris were allies. Kaluvacheru is apparently near Annavaram, at the eastern edge of East Godavari. If the people there had warm feelings for Musunuris, claiming that Reddis were their allies would be a political device. Or, perhaps, it merely meant that East Godavari began to be ruled by the Reddi kings after the death of Kapaya Nayaka. (Vema Reddi was dead by then, but the Kaluvacheru grant exhibits pretends otherwise.)
The Kaluvacheru grant has not yet been analysed using the standards of modern historical scholarship, which would take into account all these factors. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:03, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kaluvacheru grant 

message: The Origins section of the article has this line, "Andhra historians often state that Musunuri Nayaks belonged to the Kamma caste group". Some doubts regarding the veracity of the claims.
1. Who are these Andhra historians? The citation is to a single book by one Durga Prasad. Does the work have academic rigour or is it a work by an amateur historian?
2. The usage of the word "often" seems to imply that a large number of Andhra historians mention them as Kammas. But having just a single citation does not justify the word "often". If there are more, they should be properly cited.
3. If we are including the opinions of local historians for providing diverse and non-European POV, then it should include other Andhra historians with diverse views. As has been pointed out in the earlier posts by others, some Andhra historians ascribe Musunuri Nayaks to the Reddy or Kapu communities. Shouldn't those claims be mentioned in the article as well?Reo kwon (talk) 23:32, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Reo kwon Looking through past variations of the page, there were additional citations from various other historians besides Prasad that were included that attest to the claim that I have now reincluded. From my end, I know at least three of these sources are from history professors or scholars that are Telugus (Raghunadha Rao, BSL Hanumantha Rao, and Pramila Kasturi). With your last point, please feel free to include these any other modern (post-1950s) Andhra historians with appropriate attribution, page numbers, quote, and/or links to the location of the book. The overwhelming thought from this particular group of historians about the Musunuris is that they are Kammas. I am not aware of any credible historian that fits this group profile that argues otherwise.  By LovSLif (talk) 09:02, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins