Talk:Abu Musab al-Zarqawi/Archive 3

message: The third paragraph claims that Zarqawi was a long time ally of Bin-Laden, but no source is cited. I think this claim/accusation is disputed .
I'll try to look into it some more... AdamRetchless 23:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're correct.  He was a rival to bin Laden until 10/04.  At that point he took the bayat; prior to that he may have been a "fellow traveller" of sorts, but he was a rival to the obl network.  See the section on Zarqawi on the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page for some details.-csloat 23:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  long time Bin laden ally? 

message: As far as I am aware, al-Zarqawi was actually given a platform from which to launch his terrorist actions by the US; when Colin Powell cited him as the link between Al-Quaida and Saddam (which there is very little evidence that he was, if indeed there was a link at all, which looks increasingly unlikely), he gained enough influence and power to begin building his terrorist network, when beforehand he had been little more than a petty criminal. Correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't see anywhere in the article that this is mentioned (unless I missed it).
:- Demonic Duck 23:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Zarqawi was just one link between Saddam and al-Qaeda.  Zawahiri was a stronger link.  Recently translated Operation Iraqi Freedom documents show the connection between Zarqawi and Saddam's regime.  You have to remember than none of these players really liked or trusted each other.  Saddam supported Abu Nidal for years before having him killed.  I guess one of the documents says Saddam wanted Zarqawi arrested, do they must have fallen out as well at some point.  Zarqawi had cooperated with Osama before but he had competing ambitions with Osama also.  All of these relationships are on again off again type of relationships. RonCram 17:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can find nothing in the Operation Iraqi Freedom documents or the Zawahiri page that suggests this Saddam-Zawahiri link. Can you expand further? Keithq 06:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, Mr. Duck. I'll correct you because you're mostly wrong. Zarquawi didn't make his fame because an American spokesman mentioned him. He made his fame with extraordinary showy brutality. He was a media master, not unlike Yasser Arafat, but much more pesonally brutal. He knew how to play the western press and do those things which would have the maximum effect in stirring anger, such as bombing Shi'a holy places. -- Cecropia 19:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He made his fame for being a thug long before bombing Shiite temples.  And Ron is flat out wrong about Zarqawi above, and this has been pointed out to him over and over again.  He was a rival to al Qaeda, not a member, until 2004, and he never worked with Saddam.  Stephen Hayes would like us to believe that Zarqawi got his leg amputated by Saddam's surgeons with his knowledge.  The OIF documents show that Saddam was not sure whether he was in Iraq at all.  And it's pretty clear from his dead body that he doesn't have a prosthetic leg.  Ron is simply spreading misinformation that he has been informed about already.--csloat 04:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did the US make al-Zarqawi into the terrorist he was? 

message: It should be pointed out that a video in late June 2006, Ayman al-Zawahiri praises Zarqwi as a "prince of martyrs".
:It should also be pointed out that a power struggle within the ranks of al-Qaeda that results in the opposition being murdered would be rather embarassing (this would also be why he was "martyred" rather than just executed).  In this article, al-Jazeera indicates that the powers that be attempted to strip him of his influence. For about a month (as I recall) Zarqawi seemed to abide by their decision, but then he resumed his public role as leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq. A month or so later, he was dead, his location revealed by an informant. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the informant was acting on orders. The above almost certainly constitutes original research, but there are probably people other than me who have come to (and published) the same conclusion, which could be cited. I probably won't have time to look for sources, but hopefully somebody else does.  WikiMarshall 09:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged betrayal by al-Qaeda 

message: Quote:
Zarqawi opposed the presence of United States and Western military forces in the Islamic world and ...."
Really???? I don´t remember on any Western military forces before the War on Irak on the Islamic World, (he was a terrorist before this war).
:I'd suggest doing some further historical research.  Iraq was founded by westerners.  Egypt was invaded by a coalition of western nations supporting Israel.  To be blunt, the Middle East hasn't been entirely free of western meddling for centuries, and has had western military forces in it for generations.  Saudi Arabia has relied on U.S. military aid for years now, and the stationing of American troops in the "holy land" has infuriated many Islamists.  I'm guessing this (the presence of U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia) was, previous to 9/11, the largest single factor arousing the antipathy of people like Zarqawi.  
:These are just a few links, I'm sure you can find more.  Kasreyn 23:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western military forces ???   

message: I heard it reported that documents found following Zarqawi's demise revealed that there had been a relationship between Al Qaeda and the Baath  party. I think this information could be included, especially since there has been so much said that there has never been such a connection.69.6.162.160 00:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems unlikely that such documents could have been found without the Bush administration and Fox News reminding the public about them until their existence had become widely known.Keithq 01:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it happens the other way around...  first the Bush administration and FOX News publicize an alleged link, then we go looking for the evidence supporting it...  Remember, this administration is not interested in the "reality-based world".  Kasreyn 03:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Baathist-Al Qaeda ties 

message: An article has been created called Zarqawi PSYOP program which is basically a summary of Zarqawi's rise to power and a series of copy pasted quotes from articles suggesting that the US overinflated Zarqawi's reputation. This article already tracks Zarqawi's rise to power and with some adjustment Abu Musab al-Zarqawi#Arguments downplaying Zarqawi's importance could handle the suspected US program to inflate his importance.  Thoughts? --Bobblehead 00:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that those commenting on a merge should be aware the current article has been severely redacted  and what was a reasonable article no longer is. Please do not comment on that version but the one that was butchered.Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 10:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the merge proposal, if people want to see the version Nescio is citing is best and most informative you can look here here, however you should be aware that Nescio refuses to prove there is a link to the Information Operations Roadmap, making more then half of the "Program" section unsupported. Furthermore the quotes by Michel Chossudovsky, should be noted that this quotes come from an editorial and he is an economist, not an expert on terrorism or even law enforcement, all togethere there are 4 quotes in the article and the article is over 25% quotes itself. Making it a candidate for merging as it doesnt contain much infromation to stand on its own. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 15:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: There is 761 words in the article, not including picture descriptions, see also links and section titles, of those 761 words 254 of them are quotes. Of those 254 words of quotes, 103 of them are from an editorial on a website from Michel Chossudovsky, an economist, so not an expert in this field. If you counted the words introducing the quotes, you end up with 488 words out of 761 more then half the article is either quotes or introductions to quotes, and 1/4, or 25% of those are from a non expert in the field. This seriously shows why this is a candidate for a merge, its lacks content. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 15:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Proposal 

message: I'm not sure how this is germaine to the article. Is there a point being made by stating that his wife was 14 when they had sex (with a wiki link to honeymoon)? And given that this information is repeated in back-to-back paragraphs toward the end of the main biography section, what is the point of stating again? It just seems to me that this trying to say (over and over), "Not only is he a murderer and terrorist, but he married a girl who was much younger than is generally acceptable in many Western cultures!" Holford 00:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At leasts its not writen in #72 font</sarcasm> --Cat out 01:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marriage and Children 

message: 'militants' ???
Apparently the people in the Wikipedia universe have decided to not call terrorists terrorists. Instead, it is 'militant'. Brilliant. Let's water it down and make these terrorists seem like ordinary fighters in a war. They are Islamo-Facist Terrorists. But we can't use these words now can we in our definition becuase calling a spade a spade on Wikipedia somehow isn't a "neutral" position. 
AggieSpirit
:Hmm, would it be ok for me to call those brave us troops as "terrorist" because thats what al-quada calls them. According to al-quadia they are the best thing since sliced bread. Obviously we dont call them as such. You see, NPOV doesnt only apply when its conviniant. It applies all the time. 
:Oh and btw before you ask, in my personal beliefs Zarqawi is an asshole. 
:--Cat out 01:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incapable of calling a terrorist a terrorist 

message: THe intro should only address that subset of tapes Zarqawi actually made. If there are forged tapes that may be worth mentioning in teh body somewhere. Mrdthree 15:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zarqawi tapes 

message: Using Primary sources to infer a conclusion about post Zarqawi Iraq is "connecting the dots" and is not allowed under WP:OR guidelines.--Tbeatty 01:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-Zarqawi Iraq 

message: ====Supporting Removal====
# Kasreyn 02:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Votes on Proposed Removal

message: # Kasreyn 02:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Supporting Removal

message: # Keep This image was released by the U.S. government regarding Zarqawi.  It is like any other government document and is encyclopedic as it relates to Zarqawi regardless of whether some people find it distasteful - see WP:NOT Censored. --Tbeatty 05:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Opposing Removal