Talk:Harry Potter/Archive 10

message: I think more should be said about the themes, morals etc that harry potter presents to readers, as this page is generally about harry potter. Also the page should be edited not to include in such detail the events of the first book, as it refers to Harry potter and the philosophers stone, not harry potter in general. a general overview of the events should be given, as well as themes and morals, and how it relates to present society, -(good vs evil and "there is no such thing as evil, but power and those who seek it")
regards anon124.168.115.172 03:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that most of what you're talking about is original research. =David(talk)(contribs) 03:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Fair enough. However as editors it is not up to us to write about what we think of the books. Now, if you can find, say, a magazine article from a reputable source that discusses moral themes etc, by all means include it. But again, an encyclopedia does not reflect the opinions of the editors, but rather is a collection of other (notable!) people's opinions. faithless (speak) 08:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To add on to Faithless' comment, I would suggest you take a look at Wikipedia's verifiability guidelines and the policy on Original Research.   (You also might want to create an account) Cheers! =David(talk)(contribs) 13:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may want to contribute to Politics of Harry Potter which looks at the way the media and academia has interpreted morals and themes in the books in a socio-political context. Libertycookies 15:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At the bottom of this page i have added a section called themes and Motifs, centering on how to make the section better. BlazeOfGlory15 01:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: You want Harry Potter (character). faithless (speak) 20:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harry potter theme's description 

message: there are no para's or articles on the symbols in harry potter... (unsigned comment by User:Addy-g-indahouse)
:omg! well, that's just wrong. I know for a fact that there are many signs in the movies: stop signs, wolf-crossing signs, bus lines. street identifier signs - they are everywhere. Do we really need to write an article about a stop sign? Where would it end? Pretty soon, we'd be writing about Merging Traffic Signs and Slippery When Wet (whch of course would prompt some chubby middle-aged fanboy to loudly chime in that he doesn't have fantasies about Emma Watson, no he really, really doesn't). Sounds like a tedious headache.
:Seriously though, if you want to see articles about the usage of symbolism in Harry Potter, you really need to find reliable, noteworthy and verifiable cotations from reviewers, academics and the like who have written reviews and/or articles about the subject in relation to Harry Potter. Without it, you won't be able to add what you think any such symbolism means. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Symbols in harry potter 

message: This article has a lot of good information in it, but it needs to be reorganized a bit, sourced better and copy edited. Here are my suggestions:
Lead:
*The lead is not a standalone summary of the article; whole sections of the article are not alluded to while too much detail regarding publishing is given. See WP:LEAD (please read carefully). 
*Wasn't Voldemort trying to take over the entire world the first time around, not just the wizarding world? (Also, the phrase "take over the world" should probably be improved - it sounds cliched (think Pinky and the Brain).
Overview (kudos on the short plot summary!):
*The beginning of the "Plot summary" is a bit odd - we begin with celebration followed by the murder to two people. The tone doesn't strike me as quite right there.
*The emphasis on the neck sizes of the Dursleys seems out of place in such a broad plot summary.
*The plot summary should probably indicate that there is a similar structure to each book (begin at Dursley's, escape from Dursley's, year at Hogwars, defeat of evil, return to Dursley's). (This can be taken from the "Structure" section).
*The ending of the last novel should be included if this an encyclopedia page (enormous debate ensues).
*Since one is either born a wizard or not, most wizards are unfamiliar with the Muggle world, which appears stranger to them than their world does to us. - This is a strong interpretative claim - it needs a source or needs to be reworded. 
*This juxtaposition of the magical and the mundane is one of the principal themes in the novels; the characters in the stories live normal lives with normal problems, for all their magical surroundings. - This is not a theme.
*The "Chronology" section does not seem important enough to merit its own subsection on a page that has to cover so much material. How about a footnote?
Series:
*Make clear to the reader that the dates listed next to the books are release dates. Also, you mention later in the article that the first book was released at different times in the US and Britain - that kind of detail should be reflected here.
*The second agent she tried, Christopher Little, offered to represent her and sent the manuscript to Bloomsbury. After eight other publishers had rejected Philosopher's Stone, Bloomsbury offered Rowling a £3,000 advance for its publication. - Make the distinction between agents and publishers even clearer. You might even consider explaining what each does. 
*Instead of a "Completion of the series" section, I would suggest a "Writing" section - the page needs to briefly describe the writing of all of the books, not just the last one.
*The "After Deathly Hallows" section is repetitive - cut it down.
*The first translation was into American English, as many words and concepts used by the characters in the novels would have been incomprehensible or misleading to a young American audience. - This statement is too strong - "incomprehensible"? I highly doubt it. Let's not sell young readers short like the publishing company did.
Literary analysis:
*Much of the "Criticism" section should be thoroughly integrated into this section. I'm not sure that it is necessary to tell the history of HP's reception amongst literary critics quite yet (not enough time has passed). I would, instead, rely on their works to explain the themes and allusions of the novel more clearly. Much of this is original research.
*each book is constructed in the manner of a Sherlock Holmes-style mystery adventure - They are? Do you have a source for this?
*Why third-person limited and not third-person omniscient? 
*The second paragraph of "Structure and genre" would fit better under plot summary. 
*The article needs more information on the topic of "genre".
*"Themes" should come before "Motifs" since they are more important. I would also not call "blood purity" a motif - more of a theme, don't you think? (Example of why we need sources here.)
*The "Themes" and "Motifs" sections need sources! Literary scholarship and reviews will be the best place to find this. (Why, for example, these four motifs and not others?) 
*The "Themes" section is tiny! Themes are the essence of a piece of prose fiction. This needs to be greatly expanded. (Do not rely exclusively Rowling's statements about the themes (see intentional fallacy) - use reviews and scholarship.) See, for example, this google scholar search for "Harry Potter". You can begin with what you find in these pages. Those texts should lead you to others. Much has been written by scholars in peer-reviewed books and articles, the ideal sources for wikipedia pages (WP:RS).
*They appear at the start of the first novel, presaging what is to come - what do they presage? This is an interpretation and needs a source.
Achievements (think about renaming "Reception and cultural impact"):
*I would cut out the table of the word count - it is not that interesting.
*In 2005, doctors at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford reported that their research of the weekends of Saturday 21 June 2003 and Saturday 16 July 2005 (the dates of the two most recent book releases of the series) found that only 36 children needed emergency medical assistance for injuries sustained in accidents, as opposed to other weekends' average of 67. - This is trivia.
*There is an accredited course at California State University, Bakersfield devoted to the literature of Harry Potter titled "The World of Harry Potter." - Why are you focusing on this one? There are other such courses.
Criticism, etc.
*Literary scholars should be separated from reviewers here - they perform a very different function. Also, the section reads like a list of who said what. We need a better overview - are literary scholars generally negative and reviewers generally positive (I don't think that is true, but you get my drift)? 
*There has been so much good feminist scholarship on Harry Potter - don't quote from a salon article when you don't need to! Find the real stuff.
*The "conservative vs. liberal values" section is simplistic and ill-conceived.
*"Political commentary" obviously belongs in the "Themes" section.
Other media:
*The film and video game sections would need to be expanded - lists don't cut it here. Summarize the "main articles" on these topics here.
Prose:
*The article needs a thorough copy edit. The biggest problems are awkward syntax and wordy sentences.
*Rowling's publishers were able to capitalise on this buzz by the rapid - what buzz? The "this" does not refer back to any buzz I can see.
*Since the publishing of Philosopher's Stone a number of societal trends have been attributed to the series. - hint at what they are in this topic sentence
*The most notable trend attributed to Harry Potter has been an increase in literacy among the young. - "literacy" is not the best word; it most often means "ability to read"
*Indeed as the series progresses, each book gets progressively longer, developing along with the reader's literary abilities. - "reading abilities" perhaps?
Images:
*Caption under "Hogwarts" picture should give the name of the first film.
*As you mention that there are two different covers for adult and children, it might be nice to have a picture comparing them for one of the books.
*The images kind of peter out at the end of the article - could we have more there?
Let me know if the editors have any questions regarding this review. Awadewit | talk 15:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Might you explain what you see the difference between literary analysis and criticism being exactly? I see "criticism" as attacks on the book by religious readers, for example, while "literary analysis" is work published in peer-reviewed publications by scholars - you? Awadewit | talk 11:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: criticism is is offering your opinions (whether negative or positive) about the work as a whole, while literary analysis is examining the work by taking it apart and analyzing it based on figure of speech or other literary devices.--88wolfmaster 03:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are there even two different sections for themes and motifs? last time I checked the meant pretty much the same thing. BlazeofGlory 09:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Themes and Motifs are NOT the same. Themes are a "broad idea in a story, or a message or lesson conveyed by a work" (or big picture). Motif "is a recurring element that has symbolic significance in the story" (or a symbol that reoccurs throughout the work)--88wolfmaster 04:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Why has it been over a month since this was posted and so few of the things it mentions have been done. It makes us all look lazy if you ask me and should be taken out of the talk page to make us look better. BlazeofGlory 09:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA fail

message: Because they're fairly sweeping, and I don't want to tackle them without consensus. 
 To start off, here's a list of every scholarly article on Google with the words "Harry Potter" and theme somewhere in them. Quite a few jump out the first page as possible sources. No one mind if I use them? Serendipodous 15:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mind, I just want to see this article stop being a 'B', it is quite terrible at the moment. BlazeOfGlory15 01:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: OK. Is anyone interested in taking on the GAN criticisms?

message: I think this was a shame, since I found them useful for finding appropriate previous discussions, and they let people know things have previously been discussed. The Talk:Evolution page has something vaguely similar if precedent is required for something to be done. It makes it easier for people who wonder something about the article to see what people have said in the past, and to see why things are as they are. What do others think? Skittle 20:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There aren't that many archives, really.  I understand it's helpful, but I just don't think it's needed on the main talk page.  The archives do have Tables of Contents...I think that's sufficient. =David(talk)(contribs) 21:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they made the page more cluttered and were misleading since they weren't comprehensive. -- John Reaves 21:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I thought that they were interesting and useful--letting people know at a glance of topics that'd been covered before. The alternative--plodding through every link, seems much less attractive, to me. Marieblasdell 05:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You could just use advanced search, and only search the Talk namespace for "Harry Potter Anti-Semitism."  Then you get it all.  Assuming someone, at some point in the discussion, spelled the topic correctly... :-)  It strikes me as more accurate anyway. =David(talk)(contribs) 06:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's good advice, but I see the issue as being not so much one of what people can do, but of what people will do. Marieblasdell 06:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of archive descriptions/summaries 

message: Should the HP 1-7 redirect to the respective HP book, or a disambig page with the postal code area? The HP7 was made into a disambig page. I dont think that is neccesary. A 
This article is about the book for ... notice should suffice. Thoughts? i said 22:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I originally posted this message the 24th of August, and it was archived. There were no comments, so I am going to un disambig it. i said 22:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: HP'?' will be typed in by people from all around the world; a  tiny percentage of those will be looking for the postal codes. The rest will want the respective Harry Potter book. It should link straight to the book, where the notice at the top will send people looking for the postcode in the right direction. asyndeton 22:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Majority of people searching for HP will be looking for Harry Potter. The people that aren't searching for Harry Potter will be looking for the postal code area, or an abbrev. for 'hitpoints' (This doesn't really matter, very uncommon). Redirect HP to Harry Potter, and then put the redirect notice at the top of the page. No big deal. --Isis4563 01:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I rather disagree. HP may refer to HP mostl commonly now, but unless one of you intends to stick around in a year or two and fix the redirect, lets set up a dab instead. It isn't an inconsequential number that think of HP as hit points, or the postal code. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 08:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I seriously doubt that more people will ever search for HP trying to get the postal code instead of Harry Potter. If that time comes, then we can fix it then, but as of now, that is not the case. HP 1-7 should not be a dab, because if you were looking for the code, you would search HP, not HP3 etc. Ironically enough, the just HP dab page does not list Harry Potter. i said 08:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That isn't the point. If people are really too lazy to write in 'Harry Potter 7' then they deserve to be sent to a dab page. Our job isnt to make it easyer for idiotic boobs to use keywords but to make it easyer for all concerned, even if that means sending a bunch of loyal (if lazy) harry potter fans/researchers to a dam page so that a few people looking up postal codes find their way. I can tell you one thing, if I was looking up postal codes and I got redirected to harry potter instead of a dam page I would be kinda mad at wikipedia. Especially because I might not be able to find my way otherwise. by the way i added Harry Potter to the HP dab page BlazeOfGlory15 01:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HP Redirects 

message: Wouldn't it be interesting or at least informative, to add a paragraph about HP character names? Many of them have precise meanings in some language (like ancient french, for Voldemort ("fly of death") and Malfoy ("bad faith")). 201.50.252.129 17:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean "flight of death". I don't think Rowling intended Voldemort to be thought of as an anopheles mosquito. :) Most of the charaters' pages have info on their names. Serendipodous 17:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of hem shouldn't. Unless Rowling specifically states that these are the origins of the names, it is OR to hazard a guess and synthesis OR to point out how voldemort actually means 'smelly gym sock' in Ubbie Dubbie language. Clearly, these articles will have to be checked to annihilate such info if it appears there. Yay! CruftEaters™ to the rescue. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 08:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, it is very obvious where some of the names come from. But unless JKR says herself that that is where she got them, who are we to say where they came from? Examples: Potter, surely that is someone who makes pottery? Except in this interview Rowling says she just "liked the surname." Hermione was a daughter of Helen of Troy, obviously the inspiration for her name. But no, Rowling took the name from a Shakespearean character. Dictionary.com defines Snape as "to be hard upon, rebuke, snub," c.1300, from O.N. sneypa "to outrage, dishonor, disgrace.". This could certainly pertain to ol' Snivellus, except that Rowling has said that the name comes from an English village. So not only is guessing at what their names mean in violation of Wikipedia policy, it's also impossible to be sure of anything, no matter how obvious it seems. faithless (speak) 06:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  About character names 

message: Gosh, we have to include this somewhere! Libertycookies 16:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's funny, but it's really just irony...I don't see that it really relates to the article other than in a meta context... =David(talk)(contribs) 17:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: It's dry humor; Sorry to leave you shaken and not stirred.  However, we could possibly add it to the religious controversy about Harry Potter section, but it has more meta than meaning, so probably not worth the bother. Libertycookies 17:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia saboteurs of Harry Potter

message: I'm intrigued by a the sentense in the article,
:Rowling herself has stated that the last chapter of the seventh book was completed "in something like 1990".
There's a chapter 36, "The flaw in the Plan", 20.5 pages, and an epilogue, "Nineteen Years Later", 5 pages, with a whole page of its own as title page. So what constitutes "the last chapter"? I have consulted the cited reference - no answer there. Is it obvious (just not to me), or has it been discussed or disclosed somewhere?--Niels Ø (noe) 11:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine this means the epilogue. JKR had said for years that the last word of the last book was scar, changing it just before the book was published, but saying that it was still one of the last words. And indeed, scar is one of the last words in the epilogue. faithless (speak) 12:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: She referred to the epilogue. See the last answer in this interview.--Svetovid 02:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last chapter 

message: I believe a subplot page should be created for plots others find irrelevant or, for want of a better term, under-plots, a plot within a plot. I have created one but I cannot make it an official Harry Potter page till further notice when I have support. Who believes this is a good idea? Rembrant12 21:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is an intriguing idea, but would be a huge undertaking.  Plus the subplots would be difficult to interpret or even to identify without being OR.  For example, I've seen articles that interpret the books as Zionist (Iran's state newspaper), others as anti-semitic for the portrayal of Goblins, and a few that think the Goblins are a commentary of Swiss bankers during the holocaust!  I'm pretty sure at least one of those interpretations is wrong. Libertycookies 17:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Subplot page

message: In the Chronology section it says that the Deadly Hallows take place in the year 1998. Since Harry started school at Hogwarts in 1991, and this was supposed to be is final year out of 7, shouldn't the date be 1997?
:Harry is born summer 1980.
:Harry's 1st year at Hogwarts is chronicled in the 1st book, which takes place from summer 1991 to summer 1992. Harry is 11 years old in most of the book. Put briefly:
:1st year/book 1991-1992, age 11.
:2nd year/book 1992-1993, age 12.
:3rd year/book 1993-1994, age 13.
:4th year/book 1994-1995, age 14.
:5th year/book 1995-1996, age 15.
:6th year/book 1996-1997, age 16.
:7th year/book 1997-1998, age 17.
:I think the text as it stands agrees with this.--Niels Ø (noe) 14:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Frankly, why on earth are adding the cruftiness of dates to begin with? It bears no relevance to the story whatsoever. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming that the dates are in fact supported by Rowlings text (I haven't checked!), I think it derserves a brief mention. There are contemporary elements in the story from the muggler world, there are historical years from the wizardly world, and there are years on tombstones, so at least an approximate connection to our calendar is relevant.--Niels Ø (noe) 19:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree that w.r.t. connections to the muggler world, a dating to within a couple of decades would suffice. However, there are still a few references to years in the books - I think there were some fairly recent gravestones mentioned in the Hallows - that makes a more accurate dating relevant. I think the few lines on dating in the HP article are OK (but just half a line, stating e.g. the year where the series starts, would be OK too). The special article on chronology - well, it doesn't bother me that it's there - I've no intention of reading it, though. - Now, I see you write "the cruftiness of dates", and I must say the wikified dates (October 31 etc.) in the very brief section "Plot summary" do look odd.--Niels Ø (noe) 06:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 

message: Hello, Wikipedians. I was just seeing the page, and I think it is fantastic. However, I found something that I don't agree. It says that all the novels have third-point of view narration, with some exceptions in Philosopher's Stone, Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows. Well, I agree with saying that Philosopher's Stone contains first point of view narration ("Our story begins...") in some points, but I don't see that in Half-Blood Prince nor Deathly Hallows. Something that does appear in those stories are the point of view from something different than Harry, but it is still third-person. If the article really means this, it should be corrected and Goblet of Fire should be added. And if it really means about first person point of view, someone should write in which especific parts this ocurrs. With no more to say, I leave you this to think. Wanna Know My Name? Later 23:52, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The books are told in third person limited point of view. The exceptional chapters are told in omniscient point of view. Serendipodous 13:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but at least the editor was asking some of the right questions. We need more of that, and less of the 'H/HRship' sillyness. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third-person point of view exceptions 

message: Not sure where it should go, but it's interesting nonetheless Serendipodous 08:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ,,,And thank you for swallowing the company line. Next, please. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Here's an interesting little titbit

message: I think we should include the US cover art on the Harry Potter pages, or at least on a Harry Potter cover art page.  Is there any way we could do this?  Trekky0623 17:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: America is not the only English speaking country and does not deserve any special treatment. This is an English book and as such we use the English covers. Yes, the American cover is different but so is the French cover, the Swedish, the German... We can't display all of those covers and the American one is nothing special. asyndeton 17:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having said that, I wouldn't be against putting all the covers on the suggested art page, but in the main articles about the books the english cover is the one and only option. asyndeton 17:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I'll try and make a Harry Potter cover art page with all the countries' cover art. Trekky0623 17:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Should we list just those covers released in English-speaking countries? I am pretty sure we'd run into Fair-use issues if we tried to add them all. For my own edification, how are the two images different? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They're made by different artists, depict different things and are formated differently US left, UK right for an example of the last book. Chandlertalk 02:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harry Potter United States Cover Art