Talk:Grigory Marakutsa

message: Do not write that "Grigore Mărăcuţă is one of the few native-born Transnistrians from the leadership of unrecognized breakaway region of Transnistria". There are two things wrong with this: First, we do not qualify the political status of Transnistria in any of the stubs. We merely bluelink it and leave it at that. This is standard practice everywhere, for practical reasons since the current status is as of yet unsettled. Second, the statement that he is one of few native-born Transnistrians is untrue. Mărăcuţă is a member of parliament. The other 42 MPs are to a very large degree also native-born, and with a proportion of ethnic Moldovans which is not all that different from their proportionate representation in the country at large. Source:[] Finally, the EU list is old and notoriously unreliable. It has from the start been faulty, in all of its three versions. It is not a reliable source, as has been pointed out to MariusM in Talk:Yevgeni_Shevchuk and Talk:Transnistria(archived). Use an official source: The 43 VSPMR biographies. Or: To avoid an edit war over this, do not use either "few" or "many" but just leave the article as it is: Neutral. Merely state, as it does now and as it should in its preferred version, that: "Grigore Mărăcuţă is a native-born Transnistrian and an ethnic Moldovan." This is true and uncontroversial. - Mauco 12:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree that the information "one of the few natives" is inappropiate. In the list of 17 persons from the leadership of PMR with travel ban in European Union, only 2 are natives transnistrians . Mauco told that is a mistake in the list, Shevchuk also is native transnistrian (that mean 3 out of 17), however, is clear that the majority of the leadership of PMR is composed by newcommers. This is a fact, and I don't agree to hide it for political reasons. Emphasis on the nativness of few transnistrians who are in PMR leadership is an old Soviet propaganda tool - it was used in Basarabia also. Few moldovans were members of the communist party in interwar Basarabia but, in order to show that Communism was appealing to bessarabians, in Soviet books they always pick the few Communist Moldavians and asigned to them a more important role than in reality (see Mikhail Bruhis - Russia, Romania and Basarabia, printed in Russian in Tel Aviv in 1979, translated in Romanian in the nineties; Mikhail Bruhis was a researcher at the Institute for the study of the history of the Communist Party in Moldova before going in Israel, he knows what he write). Same situation with the politically motivated emphasis on Maracutsa and Karaman, I don't agree that only those + Smirnov were the arhitects of PMR.--MariusM 17:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That dog won't hunt, sorry. Mărăcuţă is a member of parliament. The other 42 MPs are to a very large degree also native-born, and with a proportion of ethnic Moldovans which is not all that different from their proportionate representation in the country at large. Source:[] Finally, the EU list is old and notoriously unreliable. It has from the start been faulty, in all of its three versions. Do you prefer a list which we know to be terribly wrong, compiled by who knows what flunky from Lord know which source, against the officially published and detailed bios on the official Parliament website? - Mauco 18:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand Russian, please provide an English language source. Eu list is not "terribly wrong" or "notoriously unreliable". You claimed one mistake in it, the other 16 positions (and the general picture) seems OK.--MariusM 19:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Russian is the de facto language of state in Transnistria and of the major news sources with first hand information on the matter. You must accept first hand sources rather than third hand sources, such as the hopelessly wrong EU list. It is sad and disruptive that you insist on disputing edits made by myself and Jamason, yet you yourself admit to not being able to read or understand the primary and most important sources on the subject. - Mauco 19:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

text: In addition to the CURRENT parliament, even in the past, Moldovans held a large proportion of the leadership posts. I quote from John O’Loughlin: "The president, Smirnov, is Russian; the president of the Supreme Soviet, Marakutsa, vice-president Karaman, and the president of the Defense Council, General Kitsak are Moldovans, as are the majority of the other leaders of the TMR and the personnel of the armed forces" (emphasis mine). - Mauco 19:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not one of "few" ... one of "many" Moldovans 

message: A wholly accurate sentence (unlike the one above about how very few politicians are native-born) would be "Grigore Mărăcuţă is one of the few politicians with past experience as a Communist politician". In fact, he is the only one to reach high office in Transnistria. No one else in leadership were professional politicians in Soviet times (he was) or ranking members of the Communist leadership (as was his case). All of this can be sourced. Jamason has done extensive research on this. If other editors agree, this sentence or one like it can be included. - Mauco 12:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if an extensive research was done about the involvement of Transnistrian leaders in Communist Party. Former KGB officer Antyufeev don't qualify as Communist background? No agreement yet about the fact that the sentence about few native-born Transnistrian leaders is wrong--MariusM 12:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  On the Communist background (lack of), you should know. Alan sent you his thesis. From there, you can pick up all of the secondary and tertiary sources, too, which are heavily documented in the footnotes, and satisfy yourself that his research is accurate and consistent with the true state of affairs within both past and current Transnistrian leadership. Once you agree that this is, indeed, the case, you can add the sentence. I am not doing so because since this is apparently turning into yet another controversial topic, it might be best to discuss first and then only edit later. As for Antyufeev, he was OMON (which was MVD, not KGB) and not a politician. Sure, he worked for the Communist system, but then again, was that not the case of 90% of everyone else in Soviet times? He was never a politician or a ranking member of the Communist Party leadership. - Mauco 12:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, it has been 15 days since I proposed it. By now, are there any objections to including this sentence in the biography? - Mauco 15:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Only politician with Communist background 

message: That is certainly fair. But MariusM merely removed the information that "Along with Alexander Karaman and Igor Smirnov, Mărăcuţă was instrumental in the declaration of independence." Would he please explain what, if anything, is incorrect about this sentence? - Mauco 22:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would MariusM please explain what, if anything, is incorrect about this sentence? If there is no discussion forthcoming here, and thus no objections, the sentence goes right back in. - Mauco 02:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I alreay answered at "Disputed paragraph" section.--MariusM 02:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well that answers it, then. I read it, and I could not find any statement that disproves the factual accuracy of the wording "Along with Alexander Karaman and Igor Smirnov, Mărăcuţă was instrumental in the declaration of independence." He was, and so were the other two, as Jamason has already pointed out and as other historians say as well. - Mauco 02:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keep disputed sentence out, until agreement is reached 

message: From User:Jamason, a person who was recomended by Mauco, I received the complete list of the members of first PMR Supreme Soviet: N. Shestakov; A. Efanov; V. Sheremetenko; G. Pologov; Iu. Svishchev; I. Mil’man; O. Zapol’skii; V. Kogut; Iu. Levitskii; V. Kharchenko; F. Dobrov; O. Orlov; V. Finagin; V. Diukarev; S. Pokotilo; A. Belitchenko; N. Chegurko; B. Akulov; V. Voevodin; N. Bogdanov; V. Arestov; V. Emelianov; A. Morozov; An. Bol’shakov; V. Volkova; A. Saidakov; S. Moroz; V. Ordin; V. Zagriadskii; A. Manoilov; V. Potashev; Al. Bol’shakov; V. Iakovlev; V. Charyev; V. Ryliakov; P. Zalozhkov; I. Smirnov; A. Donnik; S. Leont’ev; B. Bodnar; I. Tsynnik; V. Peretiatko; V. Kozhukhar’; S. Sokolov; G. Marakutsa; V. Khlystal; G. Evstratii; G. Podgorodetskii; V. Gonchar; M. Malai; Iu. Zatyka; A. Salamandik; V. Baboi; N. Ostapenko; V. Balyka; M. Kirichenko; A. Bulychev; V. Labunskii; V. Karamanutsa; A. Karaman; N. Mitish; V. Efimets; V. Zadir. (Viktor Emel’ianov, Za rodinu i prava cheloveka: desiat’ let bor’by pridnestrovtsev za svobodu pod znamenem OSTK, 1989-1999 gg. (Tiraspol’: Tipar, 1999), 10. 
I reproduced this list only because we have an argument on this talk page, User:William Mauco pretended that ethnic Moldovans are well represented in the leadership of PMR. While ethnicity is not mentioned, from the names we can have a hint. I guess Moldovans were: V. Iakovlev, V. Kozhuhar, G. Marakutsa, G. Evstratii, M. Malai, Iu. Zatyka, V. Baboi, V. Karamanutsa, A. Karaman, V. Efimets. 10 out of 63. 15.8% while the proportion of Moldovans in Transnistrian teritory (including Tighina) was 38%. Same trend of underrepresentation of ethnic Moldovans can be seen in actual PMR Soviet.
Mauco, you want to mention Karaman and Maracutsa alongside with Smirnov to create the impression that PMR creation was supported even by Moldovans in the region, and that the majority of leadership was Moldovan. This is a fallacy. I know that this is what PMR propaganda pretend, but it is simply not true. Antyufeev is more honest telling that he want to abtain this land for Russia, instead of bullshits with the defend of Transnistria's Moldovans. In the last MP list you can see the same trend of ethnic Moldovan underrepresentation (and organisations like "Union of Moldavians in Pridnestrovie" have nothing to say about it). If you insist of adding Karaman and Smirnov, I would add the entire list of PMR first Supreme Soviet.--MariusM 09:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How is this "a fallacy"? How is this "simply not true"? Please demonstrate WHERE you get your information that the majority of Moldovans in the region are eager to join Moldova or seek unification with Moldova. Real sources, please. A list of names is no indicator of anything, and the threat ("if you insist on X, then I will do Y") is not how Wikipedia is edited. - Mauco 16:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is a fallacy and is "simply not true" what you want to make readers believe: that the majority of the leadership of Transnistrian separatist regime is or was composed by Moldovans. The list of first PMR supreme Soviet is the refference: Viktor Emel’ianov, Za rodinu i prava cheloveka: desiat’ let bor’by pridnestrovtsev za svobodu pod znamenem OSTK, 1989-1999 gg. (Tiraspol’: Tipar, 1999). You should not pick up from the leaders list only what it fits your interest. My opinion is that in this article we have 2 choices: either we don't mention any other name, only the fact that Mărăcuţă had high positions in the leadership; either we mention all the leaders. Ethnic cleansing the history, in order to claim that Moldovans had a higher role that they really had, is an old Soviet trick used to falsify history, we should not accept it in WIkipedia.--MariusM 12:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Request for source, please. The list of first PMR Supreme Soviet from Viktor Emel’ianov is merely a list of mostly unknown names. It does not support any claim that Moldovans in Transnistria prefer to unite with Moldova. I request again: Please demonstrate WHERE you get your information that the majority of Moldovans in the region are eager to join Moldova or seek unification with Moldova. Real sources, please, not a list of names. - Mauco 13:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First PMR Supreme Soviet

message: :I did not want to get involved with, what I believed to be a pointless and absurd edit war, but since I inadvertently supplied some of the information that has been used to fuel this conflict, I will weigh in.
:This is Mărăcuţă's article. This is not the appropriate forum for listing every single person (no less!) "instrumental" in creating the PMSSR. Whether or not any of these (60-some!) individuals is "instrumental" isn't even relevant in my opinion. If they are so important, let's just give them articles of their own.
:Put another way, I basically agree with Marius's original position that neither of the other two "founding fathers" need necessarily be mentioned in Mărăcuţă's article. But I would like to express my strong disapproval of his methods. If you are making a point, make this point ON THE TALK PAGE. The pointless listing of over sixty individuals here is to my mind something close to vandalism. Needless to say, my willingness to share research on request will not be so readily forthcoming if it is used in such a way. Jamason 21:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is not vandalism, but equally frowned upon by the community. There is a guideline on the subject. It is called Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point - Mauco 21:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is good that finally we reached a consensus about removing the others from this article. It seems that methods used by me to achieve the consensus worked. I tried before discussion in Talk page, but I founded only deaf ears.--MariusM 00:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus? I see two of us in favor of removal and one against, and two of us convinced your behavior breached wikipedia guidelines. Unless you agree that your "methods" are unacceptable, there is no consensus. Jamason 01:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I was going to say the exact same thing to MariusM: Not so fast, my friend. You, Marius, are not the judge of when there is consensus or not, and your actions (if you repeat them) will still be considered disruptive. You must not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. See the guidelines. As for consensus, I, for one, see Marakutsa as one of 3 (possibly 4) who should be credited as founding fathers of PMR. In this context, a reader or researcher who finds his biography here in Wikipedia will be helped in his research by learning of Marakutsa's role. Normally, such a person is researching the broader issues. In this context, a couple of helpful blue wikilinks to the others will enhance the article and make it much more useful to a researcher. Think of the Ukrainian high school student who is doing an assignment and using our entry for research: Will she be served better by us also including the links to the Smirnov and Karaman entries? Or will she be poorer off by us leaving them out? I believe so, and always try to edit from the readers' point of view and how we can help them understand these issues. - Mauco 01:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I quote from Jamason: "I basically agree with Marius's original position that neither of the other two "founding fathers" need necessarily be mentioned in Mărăcuţă's article". And after he made the edit I saw that Mauco didn't try to include again Smirnov and Karaman. This is why I believed we reached a consensus. Now, the same Jamason is telling that we don't have a consensus, somebody is against the removal. Is Jamason reffering to Mauco? And yes, we don't have a consensus regarding who breach Wikipedia guidelines.--MariusM 01:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The endless pissing matches are getting a bit, shall we say, repetitive. Instead of arguing in a he-said, she-said way, I would just like to focus on how we can make the article more useful to researchers who are just getting started, and who don't have as much knowledge about Transnistria as the three of us here. If we mention the 3 or 4 founding fathers in passing, we are not changing anything in the focus, tone or gist of the article, but merely making it more helpful and informative for newcomers. - Mauco 01:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "along with..." edit war