Talk:Sullivan Expedition

message: Tories?  In 1799?  Where did they come from, Canada? RickK 02:41, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Terminology

message: Some references describe battles in PA, possibly including the first one.  I'll investigate next time I'm at the Newtown museum.  Below from The Pool Tribe of Bradford County by George Lasco, 400 Main, Athens PA, Copyright 1987, George Lasco. Reprinted here.
Pioneers began settling along the Susquehanna in the early 1700s but due to an Indian uprising in the 1760s, settlements were uncertain at best. When the war for independence began in 1776 Indians joined the British, pushing pioneers eastward to the Stroudsburg area. This was called The Great Runaway of 1778 caused mainly by the Iroquois. In a strategic response George Washington sent General John Sullivan and an army of four to six thousand to Tioga Point which is now called Athens [about 20 miles north of Towanda]. Sullivan’s brutal and brilliant campaign of 1778 crippled the Iroquois at Newtown Hill.
Genacgenacgenac (talk) 18:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pennsylvania battle(s)

message: I think it would be useful if someone could get a map of his route if its well enough known.24.182.142.254 (talk) 02:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Is there a compelling reason for not mentioning ethnic cleansing at all in this article? 132.236.106.237 (talk) 20:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic Cleansing? 

message: I removed the word "controversial" from the Aftermath section. Use of the word 'controversial' necessitates an explanation of the controversy. Using 'controversial' without an explanation does not enhance the understanding of, or inform, the reader. If 'controversial' is used, the situation needs to be described in context, in a way which makes the controversy understandable and apparent. It cannot be assumed that the reader understands the controversy. Hackercraft (talk) 15:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Sullivan Expedition. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061012154722/http://www.oldfortniagara.org:80/history/history.php?period=9&PHPSESSID=dfd096f4d563694958a5fdbc3882c0c6 to https://oldfortniagara.org/history/history.php?period=9&PHPSESSID=aaa31725874556437673158550f656f2
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070206104644/http://www.rootsweb.com:80/~usgenweb/pa/1pa/1picts/sullivan/sullivanmisc.html to http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/pa/1pa/1picts/sullivan/sullivanmisc.html#grant
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Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "Notes 1" claims that Washington earned the nickname of "Town Burner" from this expedition, which is false. Washington had this nickname since the 1750s, when he was given the nickname by the Iroquois when they learned he was the great-grandson of John Washington, who also had the nickname.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.58.160.51 (talk) 12:08, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your source for verification? —ADavidB 00:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

text: Okay, I found some sources and have updated the note accordingly. —ADavidB 02:49, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Town Burner nickname

message: Would someone with accurate knowledge of colonial geography please clarify the locations of the various battles. I believe that “Wyoming Valley“ is now in the state of Pennsylvania and “Cherry Valley“ is now in the state of New York. But were they part of those states at the time of the battles? I believe there  was uncertainty over the boundaries of states in that era, and the boundaries might not have stretched to these communities at that time at all. I haven’t found a contemporary map which resolves it in my mind. The journals of Butler and Sullivan don’t seem to attribute them to any state. For that matter, were the communities distinct villages or larger areas of settlement? As a previous editor pointed out, a good map of the area showing the locations of communities and the routes taken by Butler’s Rangers, the Haudenosaunee, and Sullivans Continental Army. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 03:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Battle of Wyoming took place in what is now northeastern Pennsylvania. At the time the Wyoming Valley was claimed by both Connecticut and Pennsylvania. The Cherry Valley Massacre occurred in Tryon County, New York. The Battle of Newtown occurred in what is now the southern tier of New York but at the time was the territory of the Haudenosaunee. Brodhead's expedition operated in what is now western Pennsylvania and southwestern New York. Once again there were overlapping claims, but the area was officially part of the Province of Quebec and was the territory of the Shawnee, Lenape (Delaware), Mingo and Seneca. Griffin's Sword (talk) 17:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Location of events 

message: In many places this section repeats information that was previously stated (e.g., the numerous references to breaking the power of the Iroquois. This section also contains some awkward sentences and curious phrasing (e.g., ruining the Iroquois technological infrastructure.)
The last sentence of the Overview is inaccurate. Large raids continued in 1780 in the Mohawk and Schoharie valleys. After wintering at Fort Niagara, many of the Seneca and Cayuga resettled at Buffalo Creek south of Fort Niagara. Iroquois settlement at the Grand River and the Bay of Quinte Region in what is now Ontario didn't begin until 1784.
One officer who participated in the Sullivan Campaign noted, ""The nests are destroyed, but the birds are still on the wing." 
My intention is to simplify the Overview and also remove the notes from the Introduction. The information contained in the notes may be moved elsewhere in the article or deleted. Griffin's Sword (talk) 20:38, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overview and Notes in the Introduction 

message: The article names three "massacres" of "American villagers" in the lead, falsely inferring that the mass killing of non-combatants occurred in all three places. While non-combatants were killed at Cherry Valley, there were only three deaths at German Flatts, and it was Patriot soldiers fleeing from the battlefield that were "massacred" at Wyoming. The phrase "where the Iroquois and British massacred American villagers" will be deleted.
The categories "Massacres of Native Americans by the United States military" and "Massacres in the American Revolutionary War" will also be deleted since it is clear from the article that no massacres of Native Americans occurred during the Sullivan Expedition. Griffin's Sword (talk) 16:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massacres 

message: All the illustrations of memorials and commemorations show only one side of the story. Would someone with the necessary skills please add the illustration of the burning of Newtown. It is commons file Sullivan01.jpg Humphrey Tribble (talk) 01:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is a bit busy with images, though I added the Sullivan01.jpg file to the Expedition section. —ADavidB 06:06, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illustration of the burning of Newtown 

message: Using phrases such as "met little resistance" fails to recognize the reality that Washington expressly ordered systematic ethnic cleansing. A quote from Washington to Sullivan:
"I would recommend, that some post in the center of the Indian Country, should be occupied with all expedition, with a sufficient quantity of provisions whence parties should be detached to lay waste all the settlements around, with instructions to do it in the most effectual manner, that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed.”
The constant desire for many with moderation duties to paint these events as equitable to active military engagements between belligerents is ahistorical and serves political ends instead of a record of facts.
Ultimately this is not the work of archivism or historical accuracy, but a form of propaganda that takes the shape of sourced articles.
This page needs a mass overhaul. 71.176.66.98 (talk) 12:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Moderation Continues to Whitewash Genocide 

message: The "Aftermath" section is rather disjointed and would benefit from a more chronological organization. Some of the information is incomplete or misleading. Revisions are forthcoming.
It is unclear how John Butler's quote about food shortages in 1778 applies to the aftermath of the 1779 expedition.
The attack on Canojaharie (anachronistically called Minden) in August 1780 was just one of several devastating raids in 1780. A raid on Harpersfield in April led by Joseph Brant killed three and took 11 prisoners. In May 1780, Iroquois warriors accompanied Sir John Johnson and the Kings Royal Regiment of New York in a raid that burned every building in Caughnawaga except for the church. In October, Johnson led a second expedition against the Schoharie and Mohawk valleys in which 200 dwellings were burned and 150,000 tons of grain destroyed. 265 Iroquois warriors including Brant, Cornplanter and Sayenqueraghta participated in this expedition during which 40 patriot militia were killed at the Battle of Stone Arabia. Butler reported that 59 war parties set out from Fort Niagara between February and September 1780. Barbara Graymont, author of The Iroquois in the American Revolution, writes that in 1780, the Mohawk and Schoharie valleys saw 330 men, women and children killed or taken prisoner, six forts and several mills destroyed, and over 700 houses and barns burned.
The use of the phrase "four-year civil war" is confusing. The Revolutionary War began in 1775 with significant Iroquois involvement beginning in 1777 and continuing until 1782.
Roughly 5000 Iroquois fled to Fort Niagara, but by November 1779 the number of refugees had dropped considerably. Two Seneca villages west of the Genesee River had escaped destruction and were able to absorb some of the refugees. A number of refugees at Fort Niagara relocated to Carleton Island, and some returned to their razed villages. After wintering at Fort Niagara, most of the remaining Seneca and Cayuga resettled at Buffalo Creek to the south of Fort Niagara. Iroquois settlement on the Grand River and in the Bay of Quinte area didn't begin until 1784.
For her 2018 article, Rhiannon Koehler used questionable methodology to estimate that 55.5% of the Iroquois (4,500) died as a result of the Sullivan-Clinton and the related Van Schaick and Brodhead expeditions. Her source, Anthony Wallace's Death and Rebirth of the Seneca, however, clearly states that this estimated halving of the Iroquois population happened over a much longer period of the time, specifically the start of the Revolutionary War to the 1797 Treaty of Big Tree.
Koehler fails to account for most of the 4,500 deaths. She acknowledges that primary sources do not record the number of deaths at Niagara during the winter of 1780 but still estimates that one in five of the refugees died from starvation, exposure or disease. She further asserts that between 473 and 580 deaths occurred due to direct military action. The primary sources she cites, however, fail to support these numbers. Perplexingly, she records that more than 400 of these deaths happened on three dates that do not correspond to any known events.
In 1784, when Governor Haldimand granted the Iroquois land along the Grand River, only 1,450 followed Joseph Brant there. Others settled with John Deseronto on the Bay of Quinte. A significant number remained at Buffalo Creek while still others returned to their traditional territories.
The relocation of some of the Seneca and Cayuga to Oklahoma happened in 1831. The relocation of some of the Oneida to Wisconsin happened in 1838. New York still has a sizeable Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga and Oneida population. Griffin's Sword (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "technological infrastructure" has been removed from Overview as it is anachronistic when applied to the Iroquois during the Revolutionary War. "The strength of the Iroquois Confederacy was broken" has also been removed (reason given above). Griffin's Sword (talk) 20:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

text: The article cites Allan Eckert's Wilderness War. Although Eckert says that his book "is fact, not fiction,” it is written as historical fiction and contains some notable errors. For example, Eckert mangles the names of Sayenqueraghta and Cornplanter and claims they died at Newtown. Better sources are Graymont, Mintz and Williams. Griffin's Sword (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aftermath of the Sullivan Expedition 

message: Considerable detail was missing from the section. Important events such as the Battle of Newtown and the Boyd-Parker Massacre were barely covered. Section has been revised using William's Head of the Hangman and Mintz's Seeds of Empire as the principal sources. Still need to copy edit the sections on Broadhead's expedition and Teantontalago, and add a section about the British response during the expedition (e.g., Haldimand belatedly sending reinforcements in a case of "too little, too late." Griffin's Sword (talk) 16:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Sections on Broadhead's expedition and Teantontalago have been copy edited. New section on British reactions before and during the expedition has been added. Griffin's Sword (talk) 20:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expedition 

message: The cited source in the lead for "nearly 60 Iroquois villages razed" is an anonymous blog post. How the author of this post came up with this number is not known.
40 is the number reported by recognized authorities on the Sullivan-Clinton Campaign such as Graymont, Mintz, Fischer, Watt, and Williams. This is the number that Sullivan reported in his letter of September 28, 1779 to George Washington, and is substantiated by the journals of various participants in the campaign. Griffin's Sword (talk) 14:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of towns destroyed?