Talk:Death of Carlo Giuliani

message: I have removed the category "murdered anarchists", as Giuliani was NOT murdered. It's for a court to decide if someone was murdered, not for Wikipedia. And as there was no court hearing... Something Wicked 11:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "murdered anarchists" 

message: On what grounds the article says that he was an anarchist???--Pokipsy76 10:59, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I can't find any links to back up my statement, Carlo was a self-proclaimed anarchist.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by PunkSkaOi (talk • contribs) 16:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anarchist????? 

message: :Image:Giuliani-Fire Extinguisher.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Giuliani-Fire Extinguisher.jpg

message: :Image:Giuliani-Jeep Attack.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 07:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Giuliani-Jeep Attack.jpg

message: An anonimous user has replaced "anti-globalization supporter" by "anarchist". I don't know of any source describing him as an anarchist and I would suggest to undo this edit. Do you think it is ok?--Pokipsy76 (talk) 19:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "anti-globalization supporter" makes no sense, it is a term used by media only. 18:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anarchist? 

message: Hello... I think we all need to dispense with the personal in this discussion if we want to revise this article this into the biography that Carlo deserves, along the guidelines specified by the wikipedia project. I'm going to work on it this week, but in case you beat me to it, here are my thoughts....
One simple rule to live by when making factual statements or value judgments (here or in the real world) - don't make 'em if you can't back 'em up. Cite your sources and make sure the sources are accredited (not personal websites, indymedia, etc). I think we all are aware that there is bias in the mainstream media, but not all accredited media is capitalist/right wing. A little bit of digging and google-ing is all it takes (fair.org, zmag.org, mediatransparency.org and commondreams.org come to mind as good clearing houses for alternative news in the U.S.) If Carlo was "an anarchist", find a reference that says he was a member of such and such anarchist group. 
And, abstract semantic arguments aside, we all perceive words differently, especially across cultures, so neutral definitions are best found in the dictionary. The words "demonstrator" (One that demonstrates, such as a participant in a public display of opinion) and "protester" (an expression or declaration of objection, disapproval, or dissent, often in opposition to something a person is powerless to prevent or avoid) are not specifically violent or non-violent, they can be either and prefaced as such. "Rioter" is not neutral because it applies a judgment about the circumstance when people may have been simply reacting to immediate circumstances. The use of the words "violence" or "violent" is also problematic. Can violence be committed against inanimate objects (e.g. property) or only against animate objects (humans, animals)? Long argument. Can/should acting in self-defense (even against the police/military/state) be labeled as violence instead of self-defense? Many people in the anti-globalisation movement, and elsewhere, define themselves as non-violent but believe that acting in self-defense does not invalidate this. 
Last point, and again relating to word usage/neutrality in this discussion, that could confuse our understanding of the circumstances of this incident.   Here are some user quotes and my response:
"Apparently the officer inside the car flipped and was pointing his gun and yelling "I'll kill you all, communist bastards"  
- Without citation this is meaningless. Also, being Communist in Italy does not carry the same prejudice in say Britain or the U.S. Much of Northern Italy (where Genoa is) is fiercely communist and has been since at least WWII when they formed the bulk of the partisan resistance movement. The Communists are a legitimate political party in Italy and play an active role in local, state and federal government. The article even states that Carlo's mother was a former communist senator. Anarchists on the other hand do have a bad reputation in Italy amongst communists, fascists and the public in general.
"he [the cop] was injured and poisoned by cop's smoke (that is the reason why he was on the car, they was driving him to the nearly hospital when crowd assalt them... i'm italian and i couldn't never understand how people can defende Carlo Giuliani, when all videos and picture show that he die when he was assalting a car with injured people. cops on the car wasn't assalting them." (I'm assuming by "smoke" you mean tear gas)
- I have seen videos of the protests (most notable "Bella Ciao", which made broadcast TV in Italy) and there were numerous civilians injured by tear gas and police beatings who were not receiving medical attention. Tear gas is incidentally not fatal and police are trained/paid to handle it's use and effects. The police vehicle was an armoured land rover with bullet proof windows. The amount of damage that could have been inflicted on it by one youth armed with a fire extinguisher is minimal. None of this makes the fatal, point-blank shooting of an unarmed youth, justified. 
If I had to guess about what happened, it would be that in a chaotic situation, the police vehicle got cornered by protesters and the occupants panicked. Molotovs had been used at the protests and prominently discovered in the possession of protesters staying at the Diaz School during a raid a few days earlier (later found in court to have been planted by police to justify their excessive use of force), so it is reasonable for the occupants of the police vehicle to assume this as a possibility against them and act accordingly... but that is not really relevant to fixing this article Limes (talk) 11:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  And back to the Article 

message: It isn't a very long article, so getting something like the continuity right isn't a very big ask! 
Here we have a statement in the section headed Trial:
:The conclusion of Judge Daloiso, which had already been subjected to strong criticism, was challenged by the press, as was the decision not to charge the driver of the Land Rover for running over Giuliani on the basis that he was already dead. Medics tending to Giuliani after he was run over testified that his heart was still beating,Piazza Carlo Giuliani and this was confirmed by professor Salvi during the trial in Genoa. 
The fact that Giuliani was run over has not been mentioned, until this point, even though it could have been mentioned in the intro and should have been mentioned in the report of the Incident. 
OK, Wiki editors!   
* Tell your readers, in the section called Incident that Carlo Giuliani was run over, after being shot.  
* Tell your readers, within the section called Incident, what the vehicle was that ran over him.  I do not know, from reading this, whether the "Land Rover" that is referred to was the Carabiniere vehicle or some other vehicle.  
Telling your readers that there was a decision not to charge the driver that ran over someone (alive or dead) is not the same thing as stating, within the report of the incident, that the body (be it alive or dead) was in fact run over. 
Amandajm (talk) 07:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Serious omission 

message: By no reasonable or objective standard was this man a "victim of police brutality." There is a picture clearly showing he was about to throw a heavy metal object (fire extinguisher) at an injured individual in a police vehicle. He was shot while attempting to inflict serious harm (possibly even death) upon another individual. His killing appears to be an open/shut case of self-defense. Only a biased person suffering a serious ideologically driven disconnect with reality could declare that he was a victim of police brutality. He was not standing on a street corner holding a sign when some insane power-tripping cop shot him in the face. He was attempting to assault the police and he lost his life in the attempt because his victims were armed and fought back. Communists and anarchists need to get over themselves and stop making this criminal thug into some martyr.
21 September 2012  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.85.63 (talk) 19:12, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category bias 

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message: Carlo Giuliani has become a symbol of leftist civil unrest during the G8 summit in Genoa. Various musical groups have paid tribute to Carlo Giuliani through songs or dedications, e.g., the English group Chumbawamba dedicated their version of the traditional World War II anti-fascist Italian partisans song "Bella Ciao" to Giuliani, during their 2001 tour, Propagandhi dedicated their song, "Resisting Tyrannical Government" to Giuliani, the anarcho-punk band Conflict released a song in his memory, titled "Carlo Giuliani", and the Spanish band Ska-P also has a song about Carlo, titled "Solamente por pensar". In other examples the Italian singer-songwriter Francesco Guccini in 2004 wrote a song about Carlo Giuliani and the G8 summit incidents, named "Piazza Alimonda"; Giuliani is also mentioned in a song by Italian rapper Nesli, and "Zeta Reticoli" by the alternative rock band Meganoidi was dedicated to him. The Shizit dedicated their entire album Soundtrack for the Revolution to his memory. Giuliani was also mentioned in the valencian band Orxata Sound System song "VIOLÈNCIA". The Irish band Lankum (formerly known as Lynched) have also dedicated a song in his name. In 2001, the Italian composer Luca Francesconi wrote "Let me Bleed", Requiem for Carlo Giuliani for mixt choir on text by Attilio Bertolucci. The North American Outspoken Word Troupe of political poets published a piece entitled "A Tale of Two Giulianis" contrasting Carlo to former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani.
Piazza Alimonda, the plaza where Giuliani was killed, was unofficially renamed "Piazza Carlo Giuliani" by activists, who erected a memorial there for mementos, photographs, writings and flowers. This memorial has since been set on fire twice. Another memorial, instituted at the expense of his parents, features simply the words "Carlo Giuliani, boy." In 2007, the Communist Refoundation Party renamed its Presidential Office in the Italian Parliament after Carlo Giuliani. Giuliani's mother, Haidi, was elected Senator for the party in the 2006 election specifically to begin a parliamentary inquiry into Carlo's death. After the exit from the parliament of PRC by the result of 2008 election, the name was changed.
The 2005 film Dot.Kill directed by John Irvin described the Giuliani slaying as causing violent anti-globalist splinter groups to proliferate, as a possible motive for the online slayings of CEOs portrayed in the film.
Moved the Legacy section's unsourced text to this talk page so that it can be restored if accompanied by reliable, secondary sources. czar 03:05, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced Legacy section