Talk:Ethnic clashes of Târgu Mureș

message: This interpretation of events is extremely POV. I am not an expert on the topic but as far as I know the line of events is comparable to that of the muneriads, and the action on part of Hungarians which triggered the violent backlash was a peaceful demonstration for language rights. Please someone more knowledgeable join in the discussion.--Tamas 15:49, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not more knowledgeable, but I agree that this article includes only some POV, instead of including information on what happened. Bogdan | Talk 16:06, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: A Romanian -- Mihaila Cofariu -- was beaten and it appears that at first it was thought that he was Hungarian, which sparked the clashes. I can't find many references on the internet. Bogdan | Talk 16:26, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: the original entry contained only the "mainstream Romanian" POV, I added the "ethnic Hungarian" POV. Actually I have a book compiled by ethnic Hungarians on the issue but I don't think it would be accepted as an unbiased source here because of the circumstances. --Tamas 18:28, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: Can we at least establish: is Cofariu's first name properly Mihai or Mihăilă? I realize they are variants on the same name. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In most sources he is called Mihăilă Cofariu --KIDB 16:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: As far as I know the film was taken by an Irish TV Channel. The sentence originating from the Romanian myth "The tape was misleadingly broadcast by Hungarian television, pretending to depict the ethnic Magyars being beaten by the Romanian majority ..." is again propaganda against Hungarians. --KIDB 12:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody commented, I will remove the misleading information. + Critics of the report can also not prove that this international NGO was influenced by this videotape. They gained information from local sources, not from this video. The report shows a detailed account of the clashes and is not about the single event recorded on the tape. --KIDB 08:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Videotape

message: Dear Dpotop, HVIM has absolutely nothing to do with the events of 1990. It was founded more than a decade later. So it is completely unjustified to have a links about it on this page. It creates the false impression that this organization had a hand in the events of 1990, which is impossible, as it did not even exist. By adding more and more irrelevant stuff to this article, all we will achieve is that the article itself becomes useless, which is surely not good for Wikipedia.--Tamas 12:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Tamas, I mentioned that the reason for my revert was anonymous edit. While such edits are quite acceptable in general, I feel that disputed ones should carry identification. I won't revert your change.Dpotop 17:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: HVIM links

message: This seems to be a neutral study on the events, I suggest to be included in the External links paragraph. Forget the title and read directly the description of the actual events in February-March 1990 (from page 14). It is quite obvious from this that the local police and central government did a very bad job. --KIDB 14:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I,ve just opened it, and (of course) I stumbled on the title. Don't like it in relation with this article. The events of Targu Mures are certainly the product of both nationalisms. Dpotop 09:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Second note. I do not consider impartial a presentation that does not include the causes of the Romanian demonstrations (school separatism, push for ethnic self-determination, etc.). Without saying that the causes justify the events, I believe that any correct presentation of the events must include this part. Dpotop 09:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, I begin to find you outrageous. What's wrong with the title? Resurgent Romanion Nationalism is exactly what happened in Romania after the 1990 changes, as in many other eastblock states (Yugolsavia for instance). That is generally accepted by scholars. I get very worried about the interethnic relations in Romania after reading talk pages of Romania-Magyar subjects. Maartenvdbent 21:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New link

message: I'm an eye witness and I can confirm what is written in the Human Rights Watch World Report for 1990.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zmiklos (talk • contribs) 23 Feb 2006.
Well... I lived those events and there are some things witch are "kept quiet" by "scholars". I'll share my view as my previous "eye witness". Starting with the fact that 1989 was one year of changes in Romania and for Hungarian minority was a "historical chance" to regain the autonomy and why not the independence from Romania.  I don't want to insist in debating animosities between Romanian and Hungarians, as this subject may cover hundred of pages, but I only want to notice some events prior to 20th March:
a) December '89 on Hargita/Covasna/Mures has leaded to victims, but only Romanian officers were killed during the "'89 revolution" (please note that the police-MILITIA of that time- was formed also from Hungarian ethnic people but none of them was badly injured)
b) the increase nationalistic rhetoric of Hungarian extremists in the first months of year 1990 has raised fears in the Romanian majority - just read the newspapers 
c) forced separation of the classes in the schools - to explain : at that moment, you had the choice to follow Hungarian classes or Romanian ones in the school - classes were your primary language was Romanian or Hungarian -  and suddenly in January, at the beginning of the second semester - all Hungarian people has refused to attempt to any other class in Romanian, even if they decided to go to Romanian classes. I really doubt that one 15 year kid has such great patriotism in his blood, at that age, to take such actions by themselves! In order to calm the situation, in all schools/high-schools were created separated classes even there was no low to approve this!(In my vision it's like America '60 segregation' - the law was created years after!)
d) Social separation of the Hungarians from Romanians: friends, colleagues have become separated, as Hungarian decided to tied up the links between them and to refuse to speak anymore Romanian language - for a Latin based language speaker, Hungarian language is difficult to learn so many Romanians know only some basics of it
f) preparations for the events of 20th march - in some state owned factories, some extremist has started manufacturing hand weapons(knives, swords axes,metallic balls, etc)(I have this information from some family friends and this info were disclosed prior to events - I can detail if necessary). Also the fact that in 21th March when the army has virtually blocked/isolated the city, on most of the entries in the cities hand weapons were confiscated form "participants"(even firearms)- for example at the exit to Corunca(toward Brasov), one army track was filled of hand weapons confiscated in only 5 hours
e) the number of Hungarian ethnics participants to this events(3:1) has denoted also some high degree of preparation. The involvement of medical staff in supporting only one side(Hungarian) can be put also on discussion(ambulances carrying stones, weapons,etc...)
There are more "preparing" events - the Journals/newspapers published at that time, specially the ones from Targu Mures and doesn't matter the language, can give you the idea of suspicions and worries between Romanian and Hungarians at that time! I leave the scholars to analyze and debate them. You may check the corresponding article in Romanian version of Wikipedia for more details of those events.
For the start of the events I blame the Hungarians, as I witnessed personally the "trigger" : everything started from a pharmacy on witch the manager(Hungarian ethnic) has decided to replace the Romanian words for Pharmacy painted on the windows, with Hungarian Ones. This has generated the street people protests(Romanian of course) and on top of it some Hungarian extremist has displayed also a big map(hand drawn) of the Great Hungary. This was the moment when everything went to madness!!!
Now, after so many years, I see all those events only as one failed attempt or bad managed attempt of Hungarian minority to gain some rights. All the rights(except ethnic autonomy) were granted over the time to all minorities in Romania, not only to Hungarians. Considering the law, Romania has the most permissive minorities laws in Easter Europe(Hungary is far beyond us, if we consider strictly Romanian minority).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmtro (talk • contribs) 11:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The "Romanian" Trabant driver was actually Nagy Samuel, a Hungarian ethnic. This has been proved and doccumented. This is again, the way hungarians like to "turn" the facts in their favor. 
Maybe the swedish minority in Finlad has its own brigade, but to whom do they pledge allegiance? To Finlald, or Sweden?  -Paul- (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: EYE WITNESS

message: Hi, should this article be moved to Ethnic clashes in Târgu Mureş? I think this is more the English convention. Also, there are still some POV issues, and slight issues with language which I will attempt to fix... ethnics on its own tends to have a pejorative usage in English (well, at least English English). - FrancisTyers 18:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, the clashes were indeed "ethnic clashes". The only acceptable replacement I could see is "magyar-romanian clashes" or "romanian-magyar clashes", but then there is the problem of which one comes first. :) Dpotop 18:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I mean in for of ;) The ethnics part refers to a part of the text that said "Hungarian ethnics". - FrancisTyers 19:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of the article and various things

message: The following sentence was cut April 10, 2006 by  with the unrevealing summary "some fixes": "One of the perpetrators, ethnic Hungarian Pal Cseresznyes, was tried, convicted, and sentenced to 10 years in prison, but was released in 1996 by Romanian president Emil Constantinescu, as an act of reconciliation." - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, sorry, I removed that during some other edits. I should probably have done it separately, or left a more revealing edit summary. Basically I can't remember why I removed it now, feel free to re-add it.  - FrancisTyers 22:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable cut 

message: "…leading to several severe injuries and casualties": injuries are casualties. What do you mean to say here? - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry!!! I totally agree.... [User talk:Csabap|Talk]] 23:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So what do you mean to say? "…leading to several severe injuries"? "…leading to several severe injuries and deaths"? - Jmabel | Talk 04:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: So be it. BTW Cofariu was a simple marionette ... It was not even proven that he was beaten on that famous Irish TV record. He wasn't an ethnic Hungarian either, i know, however Cofariu's evidence could be false considering his "selective" memory from the Cseresznyes process ...--fz22 20:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course he wasn't Hungarian. Hungarians were only those who belived that it was their duty to try to kill him. In any case, I will try to ignore what you just wrote as it is simply ridiculous and offending. I would just add that unless one wants to move and live on Mars, such a defiant attitude is not at all helpful. Alexrap 09:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Hungarians were only those who belived that it was their duty to try to kill him" - nice. --KIDB 10:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualties 

message: A "totallydisputed" tag has been inserted at the beginning of this article (by user Fz22). To me, the article is pretty NPOV, but if some people think it is not, then we could probably improve it by having a discussion in here. Alexrap 14:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Totally Disputed" tag

message: Actually I would say that is a great number of romanian people that believe that the entire hate campaign on both sides was planned and executed by the Romanian govt. in order to justify the founding of SRI (Romanian Security Service) after the disbanding of the dreaded Securitate.
A strong enough reason was needed to convince the romanian population of the need for such an institution that would directly inherit the arsenal and modus operandi of the recently outlawed Securitate.
So, naturally the "Hungarians want to take away Transylvania" was chosen.
Instigators and media were used in the same manner as in the Mineriade in Bucuresti.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandruromania (talk • contribs) 09:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organized by the govt. 

message: You can't discuss the events on March 1990 without considering some facts which happened before. 
Only little more than 3 months have passed since the December '98 revolution and what happened during those three months in the area is key to the events in March 1990. Those were times of great unrest and the tension between Romanians and Hungarians was steadily increasing. TVR (Romanian national television) correspondent in that area was Dan Suciu (apparently with his colleague of Hungarian ethnicity, Dominik Füzesi). Dan Suciu wrote in his diary the events between December 1989 – April 1990 and fragments of his diary have been published and commented in several newspapers and journals (in Romanian).
 
Some details in his diary might shed more light to the tension buildup from January to March. Romanian symbols have been removed or profaned (from text signs to national hero statues such as Nicolae Bălcescu or Avram Iancu) throughout Transylvania, there were various declarations (of Hungarian ethnic politicians, and even of the Hungarian ambassador taking about the Hungarian "population" in Transylvania) and then there was the request of the Hungarian ethnics to segregate the public education system on ethic bases.
The tension reached a peak on March 15th, when in some areas the Hungarian ethics started celebrating Hungary's national day with Hungary's flags and national anthem. Traveling from Miercurea Ciuc to Ciumani, Suciu reports seeing hundreds of Hungarian flags on houses, all looking identically in size and aspect.
On March 16th, a pharmacy seller refuses to sell to a Romanian speaker and a crowd of Romanians starts gathering and protesting. During the same evening, a car is driven directly into a group of Romanians protesters, injuring 14. The driver runs, but his car was set on fire.
On March 17th, Dan Suciu and  Adrian Popescu, a Reuters photo reporter, ask the local police about the above incident. They find out the author was Hungarian ethnic Nagy Samuel who apologizes, saying he was drank. They also find out there was another car who was chasing Romanians.
Also, an interesting fact - one day before the main events, Irish journalist Gary Honeyford came to Grand Hotel and insisting for a room with street view. Dan Suciu obtained a copy of the hotel records for that day.
http://www.ziaristionline.ro/2011/03/20/dorin-suciu-ziaristul-care-a-documentat-masacrul-romanilor-de-la-targu-mures-post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-maghiara/ 
Some links with Dan Suciu's diary pages:
http://www.napocanews.ro/2010/03/corespondentul-tvr-dorin-suciu-despre-revolutie-si-incidentele-din-martie-1990-de-la-tg-mures.html
http://www.napocanews.ro/2010/03/razboaiele-de-imagine-anti-romania-dorin-suciu-despre-%E2%80%9Epogromul%E2%80%9D-de-la-targu-mures-%E2%80%9Cadevarul%E2%80%9D-propaga-minciuna-prin-gurile-unor-borbely-pirvulescu-haller-si-szobot.html
http://adevarul.ro/news/eveniment/exclusiv-culisele-manipularii-conflictului-romano-maghiar-20-martie-1990-1_50ad49937c42d5a663924d61/index.html
http://www.ziaristionline.ro/2011/03/20/dorin-suciu-ziaristul-care-a-documentat-masacrul-romanilor-de-la-targu-mures-post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-maghiara/
http://jurnalul.ro/stire-special/post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-539245.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jJDqbeDZ3c
http://www.evz.ro/detalii/stiri/rusii-nu-sunt-interesati-de-nabucco-889590.html
During the past 24 years, almost every year but especially close to March 15th (the Hungary's National day) the Hungarian ethnics or the szekely provoke and incite to ethinc tension.
2010: Bilingual city signpost for Miercurea Ciuc is vandalized, with the Romanian text coverd with szekely script: http://tanasadan.blogspot.ro/2010/09/sovinii-secui-lovesc-din-nou-inscriptia.html
March 2011: Avram Iancu (puppet impersonating him) was hanged by a Hungarian extremist. Several Democratic Union of Hungarians (UDMR) leaders take an oath of allegiance to Hungary.
http://www.gandul.info/reportaj/ziua-maghiarilor-un-extremist-l-a-spanzurat-pe-avram-iancu-la-miercurea-ciuc-mai-multi-lideri-udmr-au-depus-juramantul-de-credinta-fata-de-ungaria-video-8063485
http://www.antena3.ro/romania/papusa-ce-il-reprezinta-pe-avram-iancu-spanzurata-la-mircurea-ciuc-120663.html
Mai 2012: Avram Iancu Memorial House set fire with Molotov cocktails.
http://a1.ro/news/social/video-targu-mures-casa-memoriala-avram-iancu-incendiata.html
2013: A Romanian girl received a death threat and racist injuries because she was wearing at school a head band in Romania's flag colors, on Hungary's national day.
Also other journalists receive death threats via Facebook because show their support.
http://www.dantanasa.ro/2013/03/24/sponsor-of-hockey-club-makes-death-threat-to-jurnalist-and-15-years-old-pupil/
Just because you make your voice lauder, doesn't mean it makes you any more right. :)
-Paul- (talk) 00:59, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I see that you enumerated a lot of sources, that means you can improve this article. Please do so before placing any tags. Placing a NPOV tag and leaving it has no sense. Adrian (talk) 09:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The sense of the NPOV tag would have been to show that the article lacks a NPOV... ? Nevertheless you're right about the fact that the article needs improvement. Unfortunately my time is rather limited. -Paul- (talk) 09:18, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Of course, but if you put that tag, you should do something, "walking by, and putting a tag" doesn`t do anything really. Anybody can remove it since there is no discussion and a pointed out problem in the article. If you believe this article should be improved and you have the references please do so. Adrian (talk) 09:59, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You are, of course, welcome to improve the article, but be sure to cite reliable sources. Since it is a very sensitive topic, it would be good to mainly cite international sources, as Romanian and Hungarian ones might not be neutral... KœrteFa {ταλκ} 18:51, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

text: PS: Additionally, I do not see how some of the links Paul provided (talking about events in 2010 and 2013) are connected to this article which reports about an event in 1990. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 18:51, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is the kind of events I was talking about:
http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/linsarea-maiorului-aurel-agache-1_50ad810c7c42d5a663966068/index.html
http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/femeia--invins-iadul-1_50ad715b7c42d5a663953dcb/index.html
http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/o-zi-viata-unui-criminal-revolutie-1_50ad7c287c42d5a663960a11/index.html
There were casualties amongst "Militia" in other areas of the country, but they were shot (usually by snipers or plain clothed aggressors): http://www.dantanasa.ro/2012/12/24/dionise-aurel-agache-cum-a-fost-ucis-tatal-meu-decembrie-negru-o-tragedie-romaneasca-din-targu-secuiesc-de-la-revolutia-din-1989/
Only in the areas with a large Hungarian minority (or a "minority majority") they were usually beaten to death: Liviu Cheuchişan, beaten to death in front of his wife and two kids; linching of Aurel Agache in Târgu Secuiesc (Kézdivásárhely / Szekler Neumarkt) are just two examples.  -Paul- (talk) 14:04, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some more details 

message: A while back, I started writing the German article about these clashes. I used this and the Hungarian article as a base and did own searches as well that led to more sources and more details. As you can see, I also provided a couple of images more (which is never a bad thing). As I don't speak Romanian, I couldn't come up with Romanian sources, just kept those that were already given. If there is desire for this, I could provide a translation that could be used to improve the English version. I mean, in no ways will the reader get an idea what was actually going on there back then. Watch a youtube video with original material and you'll see what I mean. If we would update the English article, it could lead to a further improvement of the German article as well as more Romanian input could be used. In any case, I'd like to recommend Kincses' book Black Spring which is also translated to English as well as Király's blog. I'm curious to see your opinions about my suggestion.SüsüASárkány (talk) 17:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Any improvement is more than welcome, of course supported by valid (reliable) sources. There doesn`t have to be Romanian sources, you can use the data you have and insert it into the article. I would recommend to avoid Hungarian and Romanian sources in this matter, since both can be very POV as User:Koertefa suggested() in the section above.  Only when you use sources in other language (than English) you could be precise where the data is (on what page and what language is it on) and anyone who wishes to check this data, he can always use google translate. Greetings. Adrian (talk) 12:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see your point and I am glad that you give higher priority to the correctness of the content than to information having a source but is obviously false. Still, I think that sources being not of Hungarian or Romanian origin are rare and even if there are, they tend to be cursory (lack of details, sloppy interpretation). I wonder if we could collect some information and then see on what both sides could agree on. If both sides agree, I suppose it couldn't be any more neutral. This ways, I didn't think about directly editing the article, but instead provide some information to talk about, then decide what to take. I could imagine to work paragraph-wise, so we could work step-by-step. Also, I could provide the entire translation here, but that would require quite some space on the monitor... I also have to say that sourcing could be better for the German article. We have 32 sources, but a lot of them are contemporary articles from newspapers lousily credited (taken from the Hungarian article). So, let me know what you guys think about this.SüsüASárkány (talk) 16:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a very sensitive topic, so the article should be carefully edited, in order to avoid POV pushings and edit wars. I would keep the article brief and stick to the bare facts (which all sides can agree on). I am not entirely against using local reports (Romanian/Hungarian), but I would prefer using international sources as they tend to be more neutral. Of course, anybody can edit the article straight away, but it would be nice to propose major modifications here first, since this would allow other editors to comment (and would help to avoid edit wars, etc.). Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 16:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Again, I see your point, but I doubt this policy will lead to improvements to the article. I have to say that the article as is doesn't give much information. I mean, after reading the article users will know that there were clashes, that some people were killed and quite a lot were injured, but that's it. Nobody will learn what actually happened. The article doesn't even mention why the clashes occurred. No word about ethnic Hungarians expected more rights for the use of the Hungarian rights from the Romanian revolution (foreigners might not even know about the historic context). No word either about the incidents at the pharmacy that actually turned the situation violent. Nor is there proper information that and how people were caught in the UDMR headquarter. Nor is there a description about the events of march 20 (including the context of Cofariu being beaten). Important names like Iliescu, Kincses, Judea, Király or Tőkés aren't mentioned not even a single time. And the article is built up on actually only one or two sources being 20 years old (Human Rights Watch report), so the info is quite old. Look, I respect the work being done here and I support the point of view that this topic is worth an article here, but the current articles - considering the few information it gives - could be deleted without loosing much. I mean, people will rather think this was some kind of pub brawl, which is pretty much in contrast of the records you could see on youtube. Now, restricting the article on "independent" sources only won't lead to more details - westerns simply don't care about this event as most of them aren't even able to estimate properly what was going on (due to the lack of information again...). Well, at least I added two pictures to the article giving the incident some faces. Maybe we could also introduce a page that explains the different meanings of "Black March" (Anonymus also had one and there seems to be a book about Hitler youth having an article on Wikipedia already.SüsüASárkány (talk) 09:42, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improve this short article based on the German version? 

message: I propose renaming 'The casualties' section 'Casualties'. 
There has been a dispute over the "but no ethnic Romanians were put to trial" part. I couldn't find any references for ethnic Romanians ever having been convicted or at least brought to trial in connection with the events. Since it was an ethnic conflict with victims on both sides it is important to take note of the legal consequences - or lack of - on both sides as well.
I also propose mentioning the three Hungarian dead first on basis of the higher count.  --Rob.HUN (talk) 09:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this seems fine to me. As for the ethnic Romanians, I propose putting a "citation needed" tag and if a reference doesn`t appear in for example 2 weeks remove that data.Adrian (talk) 11:54, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't agree with this procedure. The text was added by Rob.HUN, and he is the one who should provide the source now. If he hasn't got any, that part should be removed immediately. If he was not able to find a source that something is false, it does not mean that it is true. By his logic, I can add the imaginary text "Hungarian protesters were members of a neo-Nazi organization", and then I will keep it in the article for 2 weeks Raysdiet (talk) 06:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree. Since this is a sensitive topic, if a statement is likely to be challenged by other editors, it should only be added if there are proper sources. Otherwise, provided that there are sources, I agree that this fact should be mentioned. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 07:38, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

text:  "now"? Since you are Romanian and me no speak Romanian, how about you help me find sources on the prosecuted ethnic Romanian perpetrators you suggest to exist, please! I couldn't find any sources in the Internetional and Hungarian media. Do you think they were put to trial in secret? Do you think a double standard based on ethnicity was applied in reporting the court cases? --Rob.HUN (talk) 10:41, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any source (e.g., book, or newpaper article) which mentions this fact (not necessarily in Romanian), i.e., that no ethnic Romanians were put to trial? If yes, we can include this in the article; if no, it may look WP:OR and should be better left out. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  I couldn't find any on the Web so far. "No reports of ethnic Romanians having been convicted in connection with the clashes have surfaced ever since." could be added. --Rob.HUN (talk) 12:12, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "Meanwhile, for a list of those arrested and sentenced (none of whom has a Romanian name) see Helsinki Watch......"; 14 persons sentenced and convicted under Legislative Decree No. 153/1970, 12 were Roma and the two others were Magyars..." Fakirbakir (talk) 19:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a conflict with another information from the article: two ethnic Hungarians (Pál Cseresznyés and Ernő Barabás) and seven Roma were convicted Raysdiet (talk) 20:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Exactly, there are contradictory data, we must look for more sources Raysdiet (talk) 20:31, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The question here is about the ethnic Romaninan perpetrators. Neither sorces list any ethnic Romanians being convicted. That is the relevant information here. --Rob.HUN (talk) 20:35, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "none of whom has a Romanian name" is not the same with "none of them was an ethnic Romanian" Raysdiet (talk) 20:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: But the second source is quite accurate (only Romas and Magyars were convicted) Fakirbakir (talk) 20:39, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is a clear statement about the ethnicity and it is a third party scholarly work. --Rob.HUN (talk) 20:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The article claims that "violence broke out between ethnic Hungarians and Romanians", but 7 / 14 Roma were convincted. Some information are missing here, because it seems that 3 ethnicities were involved, not only two. Also I think it is biased to say that "no ethnic Romanians was convicted". That would imply that some ethnic Romanians were guily but they were not punished. It is enough to say that X Magyars and Y Roma were convincted. Raysdiet (talk) 21:07, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Romas got into the conflict later. They were not present when it broke out. --Rob.HUN (talk) 21:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Any source? Raysdiet (talk) 21:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: 
"Any source?" Are you suggesting Raysdiet, that the Romanina court prosecuted and convicted Roma people on false charges in show trials? --Rob.HUN (talk) 21:43, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

text: We should look for a source regarding the actions of Roma too Raysdiet (talk) 21:51, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the role of Roma people should also be discussed in the article. Since, we have a source (Helsinki Watch) which emphasizes that none of those who were arrested or sentenced had Romanian names, we can mentioned this, as well, together with the information that 7/14 Romas and 2 Hungarians were sentenced. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 23:34, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualties: no ethnic Romanian perpetrators? 

message: ...for one week to stop edit-warring. If the dispute cannot be resolved here within a day or two, please invoke WP:Dispute resolution. JohnCD (talk) 10:42, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Full protected 

message: Much of the text referring him ("the Hungarian writer András Sütő was seriously beaten when ethnic Romanians attacked the offices of the Democratic Union of Hungarians (UDMR). With several bones broken and his eyes injured he was carried to the Bucharest Military Hospital, then, later, by a military aircraft to Budapest, Hungary,") cannot be found in the provided source, namely http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402032.html which only affirms "In March 1990, Mr. Suto was nearly beaten to death and lost an eye during clashes between Romanians and ethnic Hungarians in the Romanian city of Tirgu Mures after Ceausescu was ousted in December 1989." Raysdiet (talk) 07:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Have you tried searching for a more detailed source? Or are you just trying to question every detail? Are you a neutral editor on Wikipedia or one motivated by ethnic hatered towards the autochton Hungarian population in Romania? --Rob.HUN (talk) 09:08, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here is a detailed description of the events by András Sütő himself: http://www.bbc.co.uk/hungarian/news/story/2005/03/050321_sutoandrashung.shtml. --Rob.HUN (talk) 09:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please offer the exact quote + translation of the targeted text from Hungarian language text. But a third party source would be better Raysdiet (talk) 08:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  András Sütő 

message: Some facts about the events here. Fakirbakir (talk) 12:56, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: "intoxicated Romanians"? This is a highly biased opinion. Did this lady who wrote the book measure their  alchoolemy? Also the text written by you " Romanian villagers despatched by coach and train arrived to the city and savagely attacked the headquarter of  the Democratic Union of Hungarians in Romania." uses subjective epithets. Raysdiet (talk) 09:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The entire "Events" section is based on the one reference by "this lady" by all definitions of the word, this is POV! And something else, the hungarians should thank Iliescu that he stopped the trains with romanians leaving for Targu Mures from Bucharest, Iasi, Craiova, Cluj, or Constanta...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.43.41.111 (talk) 20:41, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source 

message: Raysdiet created a new section, The Events and heavily expanded it with Romaninan media reports. 
Since the role of the media is highly controversial in this event, please provide third party/scholarly sources when adding information.
--Rob.HUN (talk) 09:19, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean by "third party sources", Rob.HUN? Non-Romanian and non-Hungarian sources? This is an absurd request. Where do you think the so-called "neutral" sources have their information from? Either from a Romanian source, either from a Hungarian source, because there were no neutral witnesses. Anamaria Dutceac is also Romanian. Don't forget that the Western media was misinformed by Hungarian reporters Ethnic_clashes_of_T%C3%A2rgu_Mure%C8%99#Western_media_involvement Raysdiet (talk) 09:45, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Raysdiet, you know well the source is perfect. You should find other sources and contribute more instead of reckless reverting. I know it is the easiest way, but it is time to do something more useful in connection with this subject. Fakirbakir (talk) 11:19, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Events 

message: Can we please decide how we want this article changed and not simply wait for the protection to expire and the whole edit warring nonsense to begin again. Please say what you want changed, why, and with WP:RSs to back up your proposed change. RashersTierney (talk) 21:34, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead was such a mess so I tried to improve this article and contributed new relevant information. I agree this subject is a sensitive issue but it will be not my fault if the scholars use words like "intoxicated" or "violent".Fakirbakir (talk) 07:56, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Moreover, we should also mention the role of the Roma people. We know that there were three ethnic groups in the attack and the Roma joined to the Hungarians against Romanians. I have already found two sources about latter prosecutions (you can find them here ) and they equally state that only the Roma and the Hungarians were prosecuted (7 or 14 Roma and 2 Hungarians were arrested or sentenced).Fakirbakir (talk) 08:15, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: In its report 'Since the Revolution - Human Rights in Romania' - March 1991, p15, Helsinki Watch reported on the ethnic background of those arrested and prosecuted, It stated that "The Prosecutor's  Office  in Tirgu Mures conducted  an  investigation  into the  events  intended  less  to  get  at  the  truth  than  to  make  a  few  individuals scapegoats for the violence.  Helsinki Watch interviewed the Chief Prosecutor for the County of Mures who reported that 31 people were investigated in connection with  the  events;  two were  ethnic  Romanian,  five were  ethnic Hungarian  and  24 were of Gypsy origin." and "In addition  to  the 31 mentioned above, between 14 and 18 Gypsies were tried  and  convicted  of  various  offenses  such  as  possession  of  weapons  and disturbance of the peace.  These Gypsies were tried under Decree 153 which was first published on April 13, 1970, and which was directed against those who were "parasites" of the socialist order.   After  the December  1989  revolution,  Decree  153  was  identified  as  an extremely abusive  tool of  the Ceausescu regime. " RashersTierney (talk) 09:31, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I do not understand what you want to demonstrate with this quote. Do you suggest adding it to the article? KœrteFa {ταλκ} 20:22, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps just the first sentence. It can also be used as a source for the ethnic background of those arrested and prosecuted. RashersTierney (talk) 23:38, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Time out

message: What does exactly a scholary work mean in this context? It is just about being an objective observer of the events. Are there people specialized in being witnesses? Hh2013 (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What does scholarly work mean? Well, in this case the author (Anamaria Dutceac Segesten) is a researcher, has a PhD in a related field, works at a prestigious university, and published her book with an academic publisher (thus, it was very likely peer-reviewed, etc). Last but not least, she is neither Hungarian nor Romanian. These make her much more reliable than those newspaper articles and tv reports we could cite from Romania or Hungary. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 22:04, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Anamaria Dutceac Segesten was born in Romania (she wrote articles in Romanian - http://www.acum.tv/articol/10804/). Her specialization (http://www.sol.lu.se/en/person/AnamariaDutceacSegesten) could make her a reliable analyst of the social causes / political situation, but all what she does in the referred text is narrating the events. For narrating the events with accuracy, the main needed attribute is to be a witness, not to have a PhD in Comparative Politics and International Relations. The Romanian television correspondent, which was present in the middle of the action, is more reliable in my opinion. I maintain my position that "intoxicated" is an epithet possibly given without arguments (I doubt that someone measured the alcoholemy of those people). If keeping it, I propose to explicitly attribute the epithet (something like "...described by Anamaria Dutceac Segesten as being "intoxicated"") Hh2013 (talk) 22:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Scholary work" 

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