Talk:Islamophobia/Archive 2

message: John Ball prefers this:
:Islamophobia is fear or hatred of Muslims or Islamic culture. Islamophobia is characterized by the belief that Muslims are religious fanatics, have violent tendencies towards non-Muslims, and reject as directly opposed to Islam such concepts as equality, tolerance, and democracy. It is a form of racism where Muslims, an ethno-religious group, not a race, are, nevertheless, constructed as a race. A set of negative assumptions are made of the entire group to the detriment of members of that group. The term is a neologism dating from the early 1990’s and derives from Xenophobia.
whilst RK prefers this:
:Islamophobia is a neologism that is used to describe a fear or hatred of Muslims or Islamic culture. Islamophobia may be characterized by one or more of the following beliefs: 
:*All or most Muslims are religious fanatics 
:*All or most Muslims have violent tendencies towards non-Muslims 
:*Many people are afraid of Islam because many dominant forms of Islamic thinking today are opposed to enlightenment values, such as equality, tolerance, religious pluralism and democracy. This fear of Islam crosses the line into Islamophobia when this fear is applied to all or most Muslims.
I prefer John Ball's version.
#Quadell (talk) 16:49, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
#  John Ball This is the core definition and should retain it's meaning, although with additional explanation.
# Graft
I prefer RK's version.
RK
Comments
*John Ball's version needs improvement, but it is closer to NPOV IMHO. Quadell (talk) 16:55, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
*The final bullet point in RK's introduction is very debatable; if it were struck I might like that version better (sans bullet format). Graft 17:59, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: 1. Introductory paragraph

message: There is an article on Persection of Christians, Anti-Semitism and on Homophobia, but what about the killing of Muslims? Worldwide, millions of Muslims have been murdered in the past few decades, by people such as Saddam Hussein, Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, etc? RK 00:39, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)
:The National Islamic Front in Sudan has killed largely Christians and animists, but also hundreds of thousands of Muslims, especially among the Beja, Fur, Massaleit, Tama, and Nuba peoples. Its militias have also taken Muslim slaves.
:The Armed Islamic Group in Algeria has murdered more than 100,000 Muslims in the last decade. In Chechnya, another 100,000 people, one-10th of the population, has been killed and almost half the population is displaced. In Afghanistan, the Taliban and their Al Qaeda allies killed thousands of Shia. In Mauritania, tens of thousand of Muslims are held as slaves. Tens of thousands more died in the Kashmir conflict and in the civil wars in Liberia, Ivory Coast, and Sierra Leone. Thousands more have died in Nigeria and Indonesia. The Burmese junta drove out more than a quarter million of its Rohingya Muslims in the early 1990s. In India last year some 2,000 Muslims were slaughtered in Gujarat, some disemboweled or burned alive while police stood by or joined in.
:Yet these events are passed over in silence, even within much of the Muslim world. Meanwhile, the perpetrators of many of these atrocities sit in the UN condemning events in the West Bank.
:World silence over slain Muslims - from Boston.Com
:: RK, while some of the above may be true (and some is exaggerated) I don't feel it needs to be put into an article on Islamophobia as much of it does not relate to Islamophobia. The exception would be communal violence in India which, I think, should be handled in a seperate article on 'Communal Conflict in India' but should be referenced in this article.  John Ball 23/07/04 9:25
:::OK. RK
There is already an article - unsurprisingly titled Persecution of Muslims. - Mustafaa 10:07, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why no mention of these mass murders of Muslims? 

message: Perhaps the most important factor shaping the present wave of Islamophobia, though, is the extremely large and disproportionate media coverage given to Islamist-inspired terrorism, for example, to the September 11 Terrorist Attacks, while relatively little media coverage is given to equivalent acts of terrorism by other groups or nation-states.
--Isn't this NPOV? I mean, what's so "disproportionate" about the media coverage of islamist attacks on the US? The Oklahoma bombing also received similar coverage. The whole paragraph seems to me that such coverage is unfounded and is actually "bad" in eliciting more islamophobia. Plus, the majority of world's current terrorist incidents are islamist. Wareware 01:09, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  media 

message: Islam is probably the most powerful religion in the world (in the sense that a machine gun is more powerful than a crossbow).  This is shown by the fact that all attempts to encourage conversions out of Islam have failed.  The only formerly-Muslim regions (ie regions where the majority of the population was Muslim) to ever be de-Islamicized were the Iberian Peninsula and Israel proper.  Both of these were effected not by converting Muslims, but by expelling or exterminating them and resettling the lands with non-Muslims.  This suggests that while military defeat doomed Nazism (which was selling nothing but German military victory), and economic failure doomed Communism, Islam could be destroyed only by genocide.  Extreme hatred of Islam can thus be interpreted as a call for genocide in much the same way as extreme racism. (GCarty 09:06, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamophobia vs. Racism 

message: I believe that the LGF should be deleted and/or replaced with another, more reliable quote. I do not dispute that the quote is a prime example of islamophobia, but it is an anonymous user making an anonymous comment to a post of that blog. Is that something an encylopedia would really quote?--Josiah 22:21, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, it's gone now. I'll look for another quote to replace it, I'm sure I can find one from Kahane.--Josiah 22:36, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGF Quote 

message: If anyone feels that the original contents of Anti-Islamism - which I've just redirected to this article - should be merged into this, they're in its edit history... - Mustafaa 17:43, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Anti-Islamism]] 

message: "Islam is seen as a political ideology and is used for political or military advantage. "
So anyone who states the obvious fact that Islam is, in part, a political ideology is "Islamophobic?"  Only Islamaphobes believe that ISlam was ever used for political or military advantage? This doesn't make much sense. While the majority of the world's 1 billion Muslims run around chanting for an "pure Islamic state," and go around trying to overthrow local secular governments, the non-Muslims of the world is expected to quietly sit around and pretend that there is nothing political about Islam? Islam is a theocratic religion. Muhammad was a theocrat, he wrote a constitution, and ruled over a small empire. All Muslims believe that they are supposed to immitate Muhammad as closely as possible. Islam is very political, and very few Muslims reject the political doctrine of Islam. It is nonsense to say that anyone who points this out is some sort bigot ("islamaphobe").
:Anonymous User: It's probably no use trying to edit this article, as the Islamists will never let your edits stand. I'll be very sruprised if some islamofascist hasn't reverted your edits within 24 hrs or so. By the way, you should get an account so you can easily see when articles you contributed to have been changed (the "watchlist" feature), and so you can communicate with others on wikipedia much more easily. --B Sveen
:: I used to have an account, and was editing the Jihad page for a while under the alias Pename. But I was ambushed on all sides by the Islamist cabal and their foolish allies; they relentlessly carried out a revert war on the Jihad page until I was finally forced to give up editing alltogether. After I gave up, some other conscientious wikipedia citizens  continued trying to undo the Islamist cabal's attempt to destroy my contributions, but the Jihad article was finally protected from editing and the version preferred by the Islamist cabal has now been frozen into wikipedia, effectively written in stone. I thought I would experiment with editing some more obscure Islam-related articles (like this one), but it looks like the Islamist cabal has a far reach on Wikipedia. They're on guard 24/7, making sure that Islam's dirtly little secrets remain unknown to the wikipedia public. You're surprised about them trying to hide that picture of the British muslim with the "islam will dominate the world" poster (so-called extremist, even though all Muslims believe that Islam is destined to politically and military dominate the world), but they even hid the cresent moon universal symbol of Islam (see the [Islam template]); could that have had anything to with accusations of moon worshipping, that were famously spread accross the internet?  -- anonymous
:::Well I couldn't agree with you more about what you call the "Islamist cabal"...what suprises me is that many naive and foolish Westerners are actually siding with the Islamists and supporting their agenda here on Wikipedia. The naivete and foolishness of many in the West (particlularly on the question of Islam) might end up being the cause of our demise. 
:::One interesting side-note on this topic of "Western naivete" is that several years ago, the Dutch government banned a book written by a Pakistani refugee to open-minded Holland. The title of the book was: "De Ondergang van Nederland - land van de naieve dwazen" by a guy who used the non de plume 'Mohammed Rasoel'. ("The Downfall of the Netherlands - land of the naive fools"). The author essentially warned his liberal democratic and extremely generous & benevolent host country (Holland) that they were allowing in an onslaught of an alien thought process (Islam), intolerant of its host culture's beliefs and laws and traditions, and intent on infiltrating Holland to destroy its meaning. (It is availible on www.pimfortuyn.com, but it is only in Dutch). Hopefully some people with sense will come to power in Holland soon, like this Geert Wilders fellow, who proposes a 5-year ban on all Muslim immigration.
:::I recently edited this article to try to get rid of the pro-Islamist streak running through it (at least the first two paragraphs). I wonder how long my edits will stay up? My bet is 2 hours or less before some Islamist reverts. We'll See. 
:::To the survival of the West! --B Sveen, November 28th 2004.
Well, just as I predicted, the fanatical Islamist bigots and their stooges have reverted every meaningful change I made to this "article" (I was foolish enough not to take my own advice, I tried to edit this pro-Islamist diatribe). You people ("Yosaih" and the other stooges) are so naive.  You are nothing but typical brainwashed, self-hating, naive, foolish, Western kids who hate everything about themselves, their religion, their ancestors, their countries, and their civilization and would love nothing more than to aid and abet the enemy while you spit on those still loyal to everything that makes the West great. I think the phrase "useful idiots" fits you folks quite well! and I assure you, your grandchildren will agree with what I just said, as they look back on your generation with contempt for the cowardice and naivete you are displaying.  
Please God let the next generation of Westerners have more sense than this self-hating, naive, and oh-so-foolish one!
--Bert, a Westerner who is not an Islamist stooge and never will be.
:OK, you've blown my hole. I absolutely am not some stupid, wishy washy, self-hating American idiot. I have had friends MURDERED by Palestinian suicide bombers, and have others who nearly were killed by them! Do you know that after the Lavon Affair, all the Egyptian Karaites were persecuted so badly, that our communities that had been there for over a thousand years had to flee because of the Muslims who treated them as scum of the earth, who literally were a threat to their lives, who froze their bank accounts and destroyed their properties and synagogues? Do you honestly think I am naive? You know nothing about my view. I am absolutely opposed to Islamic Fundamentalists, and am a staunch Zionist. (If you don't believe me, ask User:HistoryBuffEr and User:Alberuni, 2 anti-semetic, anti-israel editors who frequently accuse me of being a "Zionist POV pusher" and other titless). Unlike you, however, I try to leave my emotions at the door. You would do well to do the same. Don't you dare accuse me of being some ignorant idiot. I've lost too many friends because of Islamic extremists for you to dare say that.--Josiah 02:58, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
:Wow.  ...Wow.  Now listen, this is my $0.02.  At Wikipedia, we are not allowed endorse nor condemn anything in the bodies of articles.  As far as we as editors are concerned, we are not for Islam, and we are not against Islam, and we have no fears.  Our opinions do not exist.  There is only a pursuit of fact and peaceful neutrality.  If someone cannot maintain this, then they probably do not belong on Wikipedia.  Josiah is his own person at home, and he is quite correct that our emotions — whatever they may be — should be left at the door, and we should come to Wikipedia each and every time without an agenda, without a nationality, without a religion or lack thereof, without loyalties, and without enemies.  We are not students at recess.  We are teachers on duty, and with that comes a great responsibility.  Bring your textbook knowledge, bring your academic credentials, but do not bring your ego. - Gilgamesh 03:26, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Runnymeed Criterion of an "Islamophobe"