Talk:Kven/Archive 4

message: Schnitler does not even separate the two groups Söe-Finner and Kvens when he presents statistics on number of inhabitants in the Finnmark 1745. There were 315 Norwegian families, 367 Söe-Finner (Sea-Saami) families and 64 Field Finner (Mountain Saami). In total 746 families lived in Finnmark 1745 and were Norwegian taxpayers, but no Kvens. Plus 152 "Finne" families who had to pay taxes to more than one nation. (Peter Schnitler report, Volume III, page 58. Oslo 1985) --130.237.165.114 09:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a refernce to this report in the article.Labongo 12:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, Labongo is once again referring in his own way to clear facts. Schnitler does not "beleive" that Sea-Saami and Kvens are one and the same etnhic group. He argues that IT IOS SO. He does not say: I believe that it is so. Please, refer to facts and do not interpret them and remeber: The article is not a bibliogrpahy of Kven articles. It is THE kven article.--84.216.54.122 19:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In scientific writing is should be used with caution. Today it is not an accepted fact that Sami and Kvens are the same ethnic group. It is a fact that Schnitler believes the Kvens and Sea-Sami are the same ethnic group (provided that the quotes posted earlier in this forum are correct).Labongo 06:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeaah Labongo. You did it again. He unites them, because they speak more or less the same language and have the same traiditions. True, he did not check their DNA strings. But I assume that Labongo can refer to DNA strings, or does he believe that they do not belong to the same group? On what ground does he believe that?--84.216.54.147 20:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sea-samis in the area spoke a dialect of Northern Sami (there are multiple sami languages), while the Kvens spoke, per definition, Finnish. I would assume the way of living was similar for the Kven and Sea-Sami (I don't know what the authors definition of tradition is). Please check the references for this article for the articles assumption about these groups being different.Labongo 06:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  So, a person who were in the region for about 3 years and spoke with some perhaps 200-600 persons could not be right when he claimed that the Sea-Saami and the Qvens spoke more or less the same language. He did not believe, he reported facts. But what facts has Labongo, when he claims "spoke"? Nothing more than sagas, rumours and stories. Labongo, you should be awarded the Nobel prize.--130.237.165.114 10:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes the Danish officer was most likely wrong. I think the discussion ends here unless you provide other references supporting this theory. I believe you are not Art Dominique, but your post are becoming very similar. I would suggest you check the talkpage guidelines on top of this page and stop making personal attacks.Labongo 06:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I also think that the Danish officer was wrong. Based on the information hundred years later, in 1861 (see here), there are a lot of Sami people living by the sea. They are clearly separated from Finns (note that "Kven" is not used even then). Most probably the few Finns (Kvens) living in the area were 1745 grouped together with the Sami people. Otherwise we'd need to assume that the Sami people in 1861 had only recently moved by the sea, which sounds wrong. --Drieakko 09:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Other (and probably more correct) assumption would be that the around 152 "Finne" families in the area were the Finnish settlers. The same name ("Finne") is used for Finns in the official 1861 map. "Kven" seems to be only used in the local dialect for Finns. --Drieakko 09:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe the Danish officer is referring to the Sami people when he uses the term Finne. In the local dialect Finn was used about Samis, and Kven about Finnish immigrants. The problem is that Finne (with an e) is also used about finnish people, and both Finn and Finne in plural are Finner.Labongo 11:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, probably so. In the 1745 document at least most of the references to "Finner" are to Sami people, but in the 1861 document "Finner" clearly means Finns whereas Sami people are "Lapper". --Drieakko 12:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Anonymous user 84.216.53.237, Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. (I have also posted this in the anonymous user's talk page)Labongo 11:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kvens and Sea-Saami one united group 

message: As the Kvens are indigenous to today's Northern Norway, new related laws are being prepared and ratified as we speak. 
Those - generally non-Scandinavians - who previously were not aware of this fact, are being informed, that the early hunters and gatherers entered the region more than 10,000 years ago and left scant evidence of their presence.  For instance, the Northern Norwegian so called Alta Man rock painting dates to that period.  It represents the early art works of the distant forefathers of the people today inhabiting Finland and other nearby areas. 
The Sami people are no more - perhaps also no less - indigenous to Northern Finland than the Kvens are. 
The settlement of today's Finland after - and already during - the last ice age largely happened via the Norwegian Atlantic coastal areas and from around the ice masses, as those coastal areas became free of the ice first.  This is what today is widely accepted, not your view.  If there is a historian that you are aware of, who disagrees, please provide the exact source information, including the quote(s) and the matching pages ?
If you fail to provide the above source information, please allow us all to conclude:  Such sources do not exist ! 
This settlement route information in part explains Tacitus' remarks about the Sithons from the first century AD, which - as Professor Emeritus Julku points out (source and page information provided earlier) - clearly were given in reference to the Kvens;  and Tacitus' Fennos who some in the past thought to have - perhaps - meant the Lapps (the Samis), but who now are more widely - based on much new information - seen to have been the Finns (i.e. not the Samis). 
The new knowledge about the settlement in question - of course - also helps to explain the indigenous nature of the Kvens in the area and the many prehistoric Kven names in Northern Norway (at least 12 such names in the Tromsa area alone), and the recent prehistoric jewlery (elaborately made jewelry) and silver findings from relatively near the Arctic Ocean in Inari, and the archaeological discoveries made in Utsjoki, Enontekiö, Suomussalmi, etc. 
This also - at least partially - explains the ninth century Ottar's ("Othar") descriptions of the Kvens, who - based on Ottar's information - ruled the areas which he travelled through.  - - Steve Wondering
:There has been no distinct Finnish culture before about 500 CE. It is very probable that all Finns were grouped together with Sami people or others groups before that. Finnish language as it is today known started to separate from Estonian only in the 13th century CE. Read more about Sitones here. Ottar did not say that he travelled through an area ruled by Kvens. I doubt that Kven related names in Tromsø are prehistoric, please provide evidence. Silver finds in Inari can have been left by anyone, most probably by Norwegians. --Drieakko 16:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, stop misspelling Sitones and Fenni. I think Steve Wondering/Art Dominique is the only one who uses the bizarre forms "Sithons" and "Fennos", apparently invented by himself.217.112.242.181 21:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Art Dominique's "new related laws are being prepared and ratified as we speak" probably refers to the fact that all these strange claims about Kvens here and there are related to an on-going political debate in Norway. --Drieakko 04:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As many other things, this is also just part of "Steve Wondering"s imagination. Kvens are not recognized as indegenous people in Norway, and hence there will be no such laws. Also, the political debate in (Northern) Norway has settled down after Finnmarkseiendommen was established. But it is true that as a result of this debate some Kvens have attempted to prove that they have an equally long history as an ethnic group as the Samis have. These claims are similar to what we have seen here, and they don't seem to be supported by scholars.Labongo 06:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kvens are indigenous to today's Northern Norway (2)

message: From the article: "Also the famous map of Scandinavia by Olaus Magnus from 1539 CE seems to show an early Kven settlement roughly in between Tromsø and Lofoten named as "Berkara Qvenar".". Is there a second hand source confirming that this was an early Kven settlement? Or is it not necessary? Also, the location description need to be changed, since between Tromso and Lofoten would be somewhere on the coast.Labongo 18:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The location is on the western side of the mountain chain, roughly in between Lofoten and Tromsø. Dimensions in the old map are distorted. Might or might not be a Kven reference. Anyway I'd see that it is good to mention. People can make up their own minds what to think about it. --Drieakko 18:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that the name "Berkara Qvenar" comes from words "birkarlar Kvenar". Norwegians do not seem to have used the Swedish name "birkarl", but called all Finnish traders just "Kvens". Olaus Magnus was not aware of the origin of either of the terms and tried to fit them into his own thinking freely. --Drieakko 04:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Berkara Qvenar 

message: This article has been tagged as may require cleanup since August. Please add to the list below if there is something you think needs to be improved. Note that I am not interested in extending the article, but improving the quality of the existing content (so don't add suggestions for new content to this list). Also, feel free to make the suggested improvements:Labongo 11:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  August'06 Cleanup 

message: There is no evidence that the modern Kvens would not be direct
descendants of the Kvenland's Kvens mentioned in historic sources.
: Art Dominique, more importantly, there is no evidence that Kvens has existed as an ethnic group since "Kvenland".Labongo 07:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Modern Kvens are provably descendants of the historic Kvens

message: Please note, that the Kvens did not disappear anywhere during the
centuries following the Viking Age.  Following the Viking Age,
they continued inhabiting much of the same areas as they did during
the Viking Age, and before.
In terms of turmoil, war fare, etc., of course the time after the
Viking Age was more peaceful.  Less happened in those terms.
Consequently, less was written.  There really was not that much to
report.
Kvens were granted special rights by the Swedes (e.g.
"pirkkaoikeudet", "birk" rights).  The Kvens got to continue their
lives up north as normal.  The Kvens and the Sweos got along.  This
sort of peaceful coexistence with the Kvens proved to be the best
strategy for the Swedes, also - probably - the only one strategy
that would work.
As is well known, the Kvens were able to continue taxing the Samis,
trading with fur, etc., just as during many centuries before.
Migration to Kvenland, as well as the assimilation of people
migrating to Kvenland (Kainuunmaa / Kainu) were - more or less - an
ongoing thing for a long time lasting.  Migration to the
northernmost parts of Kvenland - i.e. the coastal areas of the
Arctic Ocean - continued as well.
It has clearly been shown that the migration to today's Northern
Norway from the 16th century up till the end of the 19th century (in
some cases up to the WW2) originated from the historic areas of
Kvenland.  Thus, any way we look at the Kvens of today, they most
certainly are descendant of the Kvens of the Viking Age and
before.'''
Accordingly, no one has been able to point out a historian who
would dispute this fact.  This must clearly be pointed out in the
Wikipedia's Kven related texts.  Otherwise, please point out such a
historian, and provide the related source information in detail for
all to see, including the book and the page information and a quote
of the relevant sentence(s).'''
It can be also safely said, that the vast majority of the people of
today's Norway and Sweden are most propably related to the historic
Kvens, and the vast majority of the Finns are too, of course.
The Kvens are indigenous for the areas of the northernmost
Scandinavia and Fennoscandia.  It is true however, that according to
some experts, such as Professor Jouko Vahtola, it perhaps has not
scientifically fully been proven yet (by 2003) whether or not the
Kvens mentioned by "Ottar" lived on the shores of the Arctic Ocean
"all year around" (Vahtola) at the time of Ottar's descriptions.
Orphan Andy 13:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet another sock puppet of Art Dominique (as shown here), this article is about Finnish speaking people that became an ethnic group due to isolation from other Finnish speaking people. None of the references used to write the article mention anything about all migrating Finnish speaking people to be from a distinct ethnic group. Actually some explicitly state it not to be so: " Det har vært en omfattende debatt om både navnetolkningen [Kven] og om kvenenes historiske skjebne ved Bottenviken i eldre tid. Selv om nyere tids kvener naturligvis ikke er det samme folket som middelalderens kvener, er det interessant at kvenbetegnelsen viser en kontinuitet i Norge like til vår egen tid." http://www.antirasistisk-senter.no/infobanken/dokumenter/samora/5-01/anstrengtforhold.html. Labongo 07:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kvens are indigenous to the northern territories in question (4)