Talk:Haplogroup I-M253

message: I still find myself regrettably disagreeing with the some of Aaronjhill's edits. Things like mentioning of Anglo-Frisian languages seems off topic and not tied directly to the matter at hand of the I1a haplogroup. Maybe someone can arbitrate a change. Nagelfar (talk) 07:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Off topic additions. 

message: By which official source should we consider the page move of the haplogroup to its re-designation as "I1" (and the same for the I1b page to I2)? This is difficult for me to consider crossing the line to action because wikipedia goes on notability and the most prevalent terminology (in this case I1a), but it is also meant to keep up on factual information by boldness and the newest official information on subjects. What announcement will herald the change? Because from what I've been reading lately, it is most assured that it is now considered I1. Nagelfar (talk) 10:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The public release of the preprint from the YCC can be considered the "announcement".  Most of the other Y-haplogroup pages have been moved/updated.  This one should be too.  Jheald (talk) 11:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, we still need to edit things like the Template:Y-DNA I, some of the names of external links: (e.g., "Map of 'I1c' (now considered I1b2a)," which is not now even I1b2a, on the I2 page) and the name of  to simply I1 (would we need to ask a moderator to do this?). Nagelfar (talk) 21:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The page move to [[Haplogroup I1 (Y-DNA)]] 

message: A test by FTDNA by Thomas Krahn with haplotypes selected by Ken Nordtvedt for several potential subclade SNPs has shown none of them to appear worthwhile in actually separating I1. The SNP rs17249889 is derived for all disparate haplotypes in the chip selected for the I1 SNP which was discovered via deCODEme company tests (i.e. equivalent to known SNPs in the haplogroup). rs35547782 was found to be ancestral for all I1 samples. Maybe however, since the knowledge is so little and the pool of SNPs so small, this is an important thing for a wiki, in terms of how much information gets passed along. Maybe until it becomes too small of a fact (which it isn't yet) we could have a list of known private SNPs in I1. Nagelfar (talk) 21:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Private SNPs (which do not bifurcate I1). 

message: For several years the prevailing theory was that during the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) the I1 group sought refuge in the Balkans. Is this correct? I've read a lot about I-HG in last few years and have never found such theory. Until recently classification of I haplogroup was I1a and I1c (South France refugium) and I1b (Balkan refiugium). It was never defined that I1a and I1c originated in the Balkans. In the meantime marks are changed so I1a and I1c became I1a and I1b2a - both subgroups of I1, while I1b became I2a of I2. Is this just mistake made because of the changed marks? Zenanarh (talk) 14:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The assignations and Y-tree on this page (I1a to I1, etc) were changed almost immediately so I doubt there was any confusion there. Whatever was there before is likely stated as it was, save with the correct terminology, now. Nagelfar (talk) 09:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well there is a map to support theory, but I don't understand on what basis was that map created. It says I-HG and nothing more. Is it from period 5 or more years ago when markers were Eu** and not I1, I2, R1b, R1a,... so it was known in 2002 that there is a lot of I-HG in the western Balkans, but nothing more. After 2005 it is known that there is a lot of I2a (former I1b) there but not really other subgroups of I (sporadically some I1a but the most of other almost completely virtually absent). Is it possible that this theory is out-of-date remain? Zenanarh (talk) 12:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The new I1a is a near-private haplogroup, do you mean I1? I'm sure it is possible that the theory is out of date, add some citation needed marks or be bold and simply rewrite with sources you can find. Nagelfar (talk) 07:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I mean I1, a lack of it there... Max. frequency ~ 7% in some regions, but mostly around 1 or 2% . While I2a goes over 75% locally. OK, I'll rearrange it. Zenanarh (talk) 08:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: There's way too much speculation and synthesis on this page. The acceptance of certain assumptions that have not been cited is considered a synthesis on Wikipedia. Please don't assume that you can associate I1 distribution with historical or mythical events, you can't. What you can do is cite sources that associate movements of people with migrations of I1. On the whole it is best to stick to a description of the distribution of I1 in Europe and the estimated founding events for subclades etc. We don't even know if large population moveents, such as the so called folk wandering occurred, it's a theory and many archaeologists think it has serious flaws, not least the idea that large groups of people could move about freely through a heavily forested continent where there were no roads. Most UK archaeologists thesedays dismiss large folk wanderings as myth, and practically impossible. Y chromosomes do have a geographic distribution, but they can rarely be assigned to specific ethnic groups, and it is OR to associate Y chromosomes too closely with any specific ethnic group unless a reliable source does so. Furthermore one should not impose our own modern world view onto the past, we do not know the ethnic makeup of the peoples of prehistory, we should not assume that these people viewed themselves as belonging to groups that we can recognise in the modern world. That's basic anthropology. Ideas like "Celt", "Germanic", "Anglo-Saxon", when applied to peoples rather than language groups are modern ideas (even inventions according to the archaeologist Simon James), we should not assume that we know what happened in prehistory, or that the peoples who lived there were ethnically identifiable to us today, because we don't. Stick to the facts, populations, geography, founding estimates etc. Scientific facts we can verify. Alun (talk) 07:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes and a lot of it, even if backed by attested sourcing on the subject, goes too in depth and should be little more than a wikified link, as this article isn't about history and geography. This was what I meant by my talk section "Off topic additions." above. Aaron Hill in my opinion became a little over zealous but I don't fault him, it will be all the better when smoothed out to wikipedia standards with what he gave us, as long as it doesn't cross the line into synthesis which I agree it does in many places. Nagelfar (talk) 13:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, they were undoubtedly good faith edits, and I didn't mean to imply they weren't. Alun (talk) 17:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, that the section on I1 distribution in Britain is full of speculation and in the end does not clarify the relation of the genetic composition of the populace to historical events. Also, I am left a little bewildered with the "Anglo-Saxon invasion" theories, as the reader is left with the impression that this must have been a haplotype I invasion. Nevermind if there actually was such an "invasion" or "immigration" or not, but how do we know those "invaders" were indeed haplotype I? Personally, I am a German descendent of Northwest-German Saxonians, and my haplotype is R1b. McDonalds World Haplogroups Map says that England today has an even larger percentage of haplotype I than Germany does. The most dominant haplogroup in Germany, as well as in Denmark, is in fact R1b. So, where does that leave David Miles' cited argument, that 80 percent of the genetic makeup of native Britons probably comes from "just a few thousand" nomadic tribesmen who arrived 12,000 years ago, at the end of the Ice Age? For one thing, if he is talking about haplotype R1b, then it would mean the majority of Germans (roughly 45%) and the majority of English (roughly 55%) share the same genetic makeup. Furthermore, it means that we can only guess that Anglo-Saxonian invaders or immigrants (if they were a reality) were not different from today's Germans and Danish, that is haplotype R1b (in majority). Genetics thus seems to be no effective tool to set apart Western European populations, even if you go back to the Ice Age. I guess we must stick with soccer teams and Rule, Britannia, for that.Saxomat (talk) 18:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You say: "England today has an even larger percentage of haplotype I than Germany does." and also: "The most dominant haplogroup in Germany, as well as in Denmark, is in fact R1b.", though the dominant haplogroup in England is R1b1b2 as well (as well as everywhere else in Europe), whether England has more I1 than Germany or not. (Germany I believe has more I2 than I1). The existence of I1 simply correlates with Germanic areas whereas R1b is more culturally indiscriminate with it's distribution, even though it is found in greater numbers. The existence of I1 is just more telling for the likelihood of Germanic influence than R1b (For example: Germany/Austria proper, in older times, was more celtic than Germanic: Le Tene & Hallstatt cultures for example. With time the Germanic language family seemed to flow south from the area of the nordic bronze age and possibly with it HG I1. Though such is conjecture.) I agree though, the article has too much synthesis. Nagelfar (talk) 17:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Synthesis

message: On one of the genetic genealogy forums elsewhere, someone posted two images of the lower part of Scandinavia / Denmark and Germany etc., with a frequency map of Y-haplogroup I1, and a map of the archaeological instances of ring-button swords. They seemed to match up perfectly (high frequency of I1 and the increase in instances of these finds). I know it is probably coincidence and of course until published an example of original research, but might someone who keeps tabs on these threads elsewhere on the internet for such topics have kept a link or know where to find at least the archaeology image of where the ring-button swords appeared or even this specific frequency map of I1? Nagelfar (talk) 01:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a map the likes of which I had been thinking. Completely original research, but I had seen discussions of the relation. Nagelfar (talk) 04:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ring button swords 

message: The above article has been listed for deletion. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:37, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups 

message: The map of the distribution of the haplogroup has some strange texture applied to it, and bears this disclaimer:
"Please note that this image is an artistic interpretation of scientific data."
I believe scientific artistic interpretation of charts and maps should not be allowed on Wikipedia. It's a nice looking map, but I'd rather see the actual data.
Also, the map makes it seem like the populations of Danmark, Norway and Sweden are 100% saturated with the haplogroup, whereas it's actually only about 40% who have it.
Sources are listed on the image page. If you want to see the data, follow the links.
Balanovsky et al (2008) Figure 4, Map A. Distribution of Y Chromosomal Haplogroups I1a, I1b, J2, and E3b in Europe 
Rootsi et al (2004) Figure 1, Map C. Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe
:The map claims only of the frequency of HG I1 so the darkest spots are the most dense, logically, and not the majority of the population just the M253+ population. 40% would still be the darkest on the map if that is the densest it ever gets according to the kind of chart it is, I see nothing wrong with it to someone who reads the map key/explanation. 65.102.29.207 (talk) 22:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Artistic interpretation of scientific data"? 

message: There's an entire section within the portion of the article dealing with Britain that, as it currently stands, seems totally out of place and therefore misleading. After an apparently objective discussion of the recent scholarly trends in examining the genetics of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Danes in the British Isles, the article begins discussing the Norman conquest and notes that genetic studies identifies very minimal Norman contribution to the genetic record of the modern British. So far, so good. But then the article begins discussing this as a refutation of J.R.R. Tolkien's belief that the Normans had wiped out Anglo-Saxon cultural traditions. While Tolkien's views are certainly a matter of debate, they have nothing to do with genetics. He was never concerned with the ancestral lineage of the modern British, but with the cultural legacy of pre-Norman Anglo-Saxons, which he believed had been lost to an invasive culture. One has nothing to do with the other. I'd like to take this section out of the article, but I'm interested in hearing whether there are any objections first.
Ftjrwrites (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 20:21, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tolkien wasn't talking about genetics 

message: To editors who have worked on this article: I can see a lot of work has gone into it, but if an unsympathetic Wikipedian comes along and realizes what the true nature of most of the sources are, it may end up being slashed and burned. If the structure is to be kept in any way, you urgently need to get better sourcing and I am afraid that will mean pruning a lot of the most speculative stuff. I think it is unfortunate, but the fact of the matter is that very little has been published about I1, and on Wikipedia we are going to have to restrict ourselves to what is published. Most of the published articles being used as supposed sources for this article did not even test for I1. A lot of the sources are on Ken Nordtvedt's personal webpage, or forum posts by him. I have full respect for Ken, but if he does not get out and actually publish his stuff somewhere other than his webpage then we can't use Wikipedia as the FIRST place for his theories to be published. (The only Wikipedia arguments for using a person's personal web postings WP:SPS do not unfortunately apply to Ken: he is not a person cited in the literature as a geneticist. Maybe he should be, but again, it would probably help if he actually published more. How can academics cite his personal notes and forum postings?)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:54, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  please try to find better references 

message: I1 IS VERY USUAL IN THE BALKANS, EVEN SHOWING ONE OF THE GREATEST CONCENTRATIONS IN EUROPE. THE ARTICLE AND THE MAP IS CLEARLY MISLEADING IN THIS RESPECT.
SEE: http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
THEREFORE I  WILL DELETE THE MAP, WHICH IS INCREDIBLY INACURATE, UNTIL A GOOD ONE IS CREATED. WELL, I WILL LEAVE IT BECAUSE MOST OF THE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CHANGED. I HOPE OTHER GOOD EDITORS DO IT. RIGHT NOW IT IS INCREDIBLY BAD. POOK
 POOK.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.163.240 (talk) 17:46, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  THIS ARTICLE IS VERY WRONG. 

message: The decision to mass delete everything in this article, despite some questionable content, is very disappointing. This article is so watered down, that I find is neither useful nor interesting.  Further, I have read the comments about sourcing academic journals.  While I think that is a fine goal to strive for, we all know that just because information makes it into a journal does not make it true.  How is wikipedia to remain relevant in the 21st Century when the flow of new information is increasing exponentially.  The ramifications for these wiki entries is that by the time information has made it into an academic journal to become sourcable, the information therein will be stale in the best of cases or just outdating or wrong in the worst.  As an example, suppose I update the weather section for the planet Mars.  My source is the Mars Science Labratory which is sitting on the surface monitoring the weather.  No one is likely to put that in an academic journal but it is true nevertheless. Additionally, the reliance upon academians to study topics ebbs and flows with the funds that are available for certain projects.  I fear that this will severely curtail topics that are unpopular for funding and brings a commercial element to the information that everyone here has so firmly stood against.  The science being done in this particular field is largely being done by the I1 community.  Corporations are not interested in the field and I do not see anyone at the university level doing anything worthwhile.   
Vaeringjar  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bodhi141 (talk • contribs) 20:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  I Object to the Slash and Burn 

message: If you find fault in a section please explain specifically what you are looking for before deleting entire sections.  Many of the authors of these sections are members of the I1 community and are very knowledgable of the subject matter which is changing at a quick rate of speed.  The reality is that a fact does not need to appear in an academic journal to justify its inclusion.  Wikipedia states that published, meaning publicly available sources, are considered acceptable.  There are many sources of information besides academic journals.  The internet is rich with information that these paragraphs reference when it comes to population data and other facts.  Please exshare your interest in this article topic.  Are you an academian? Are you an anthopologist?  We would like to know what you are trying to do so that the community can work together on this page in a constructive manner.
Bodhi141 (talk) 12:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Genie 

message: Why do you hide that Bosnia has the largest % of this haplogroup? The map is FALSE!!! The very "honorable members" who have written these lies are just CRIMINALS in service of Vatican's satanists who want to hide why Serbs have been attacked over and ove again!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.244.217 (talk) 17:06, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Am I the only one who thinks the above constitutes soapboxing?   To the person who posted the above, can you cite a source showing the map to be false?   As far as I know the map is fairly correct though perhaps not perfect.   My information is that the highest concentration of this haplogroup is in northwestern Europe.   As for Vatican's satanists, what's wrong with satanists.  Some of my best friends are satanists.  I'm a satanist.  Satan was a very misunderstood person.   Buddy, get your prescription refilled, your off your meds.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.191.251.196 (talk) 03:48, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: This was beautiful to read :).--Calthinus (talk) 23:04, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Stalking you will inevitably lead us to real gems :D –Austronesier (talk) 19:59, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime?

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Haplogroup I-M253. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?name=P30;class=Sequence;ref=ChrY;start=13006761;end=13006761
*Added  tag to http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?name=P40;class=Sequence;ref=ChrY;start=12994402;end=12994402
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080429010239/http://hpgl.stanford.edu/ to http://hpgl.stanford.edu/
*Added archive https://archive.is/20121209065254/http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse/hs_chrY/?name=ChrY:13532101..13532101 to http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse/hs_chrY/?name=ChrY%3A13532101..13532101
*Added archive https://archive.is/20121210035735/http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse/hs_chrY/?name=ChrY:21160339..21160339 to http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse/hs_chrY/?name=ChrY%3A21160339..21160339
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080220035204/http://hammerlab.biosci.arizona.edu/michael_hammer.html to http://hammerlab.biosci.arizona.edu/michael_hammer.html
*Added archive https://archive.is/20121209041321/http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse/hs_chrY/?name=ChrY:13006761..13006761 to http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse/hs_chrY/?name=ChrY%3A13006761..13006761
*Added archive https://archive.is/20121209115124/http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse/hs_chrY/?name=ChrY:12994402..12994402 to http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gbrowse/hs_chrY/?name=ChrY%3A12994402..12994402
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This map  should be removed form info box, for one it has no verifiable source to reference. Also, the map makes some very peculiar claims, notice how the area of Pomorze in Poland on the Baltic coast has a very high concentration of HG I1, however anyone with a bit of history knows that this area was inhabited by Slavic tribes around the year 1000 AD, then German settlers moved in, and then after WWII, the German population was expelled and Poles form the east were moved in. With all the population shifts in the last 1000 years, I'm not sure how you can get such uniformed distribution of HG I1 in that area which is connected to Denmark. Thus, the map makes some very questionable claims and should be removed. --E-960 (talk) 21:05, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distribution of Y-chromosomal haplogroup I1a in Europe 

message: The article only talks about geographic distribution, but what effect does this Haplogroup have? What does it "do" in a biological sense? Is it about eye-color, certain predispositions for diseases, what? 
I am not well educated in genetics or biology, but as the article is about genetics, I think it is important to describe the subject from a biological perspective too. Also, how does this haplogroup relate to other haplogroups? RhinoMind (talk) 02:02, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The great majority of mutations are minor changes which have no biological effects. This probably applies to the mutation which produced this haplogroup, in which case its importance is solely in providing evidence of past migrations and the origins of people in different areas. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:11, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the info. RhinoMind (talk) 21:07, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  What does this Haplogroup do? 

message: This is on the page. Nowhere on the page does anything connect this haplogroup specifically to "Germanic peoples" although it does demonstrate that many Germanic speaking peoples have elevated frequencies of it. I discussed this with  on Talk:Germanic peoples. I want it removed. Objections?--Calthinus (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I see which bit you mean. Yes, there are also a lot of Germanic categories around on Wikipedia. I see no reason to leave that there myself. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 23:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree per WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. There was a related category, which I have removed now as well. –Austronesier (talk) 19:56, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  "History of Germanic peoples" template 

message: How is it possible that this article does not mention the oldest recorded case of I1 from Balma Guilanya in Spain, 11,000 cal. BC??? (Villalba-Muoco et al., 2019)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Centrum99 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balma Guilanya 

message: I came here to read the article because there is this interesting link - gene wise -  between Gotland, Götaland and Satakunta on the Finnish side. And Haplogroup I-M253 is indeed more common in parts of the Finland's western coast than perhaps anywhere else. It's nice that the article mentions this - but then it goes on talking about the haplogroup as if it was solely Scandinavian. Pretty much always when somebody talks on social media about Finland being Scandinavian a Danish or Norwegian guy shows up and tells that this not the case. Don't ask me why this is so important to some people. Wikipedia itself pronounces that Scandinavia means Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. And nothing wrong with that - though the "Finland's Swedes" would probably disagree.
So, in all fairness, should the word "Scandinavian" be changed to "Nordic" in the article? Or perhaps to "Finnish-Swedish"?
:Fennoscandia  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.144.246.248 (talk) 03:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finland is not Scandinavia 

message: Could Ludwig van Beethoven be added under "Prominent members?" (https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(23)00181-1) Tfxhospod (talk) 20:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beethoven 

message: Can I propose we make the table consistent, so where it says at the moment "7.96%=(9/114)" we just say "7.96%"? Making all of this column a simple % makes it easier to read and sort. AndrewRT(Talk) 11:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modest change to table