Talk:Taj Mahal/Archive 3

message: I would gather from this article that Mumtaz Mahal was actually nick-named after the palace rather than visa-versa. If "Mahal" means palace, what does "Taj" mean?  If anyone knows, it might be a useful addition to the article. 
When I travelled around South Asia I kept bumping into things named "Taj" and "Mahal," (even one-star hotels!), both terms which seem to be calling something a "palace."  But surely "Taj Mahal" does not mean "Palace Palace."--Calan 05:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "The Taj Mahal was variously referred to by 17th century CE Mughal chroniclers writing in Persian as; Rauza-i munauwara meaning 'The building of the illuminated tomb', Rauzi-i muqqadas - 'the holy tomb' (carrying strong religious significance being the same name as the tomb of the prophet Muhammad at Medina) and the Imarat-i rauza-i mutahhara - the building of the pure tomb.Koch, p.152-154 The present name derives from a European corruption of 'Mumtaz Mahal'.Asher, p.210"
Nope. it is not a corrupted version but a shorter , easy to pronounce and most popular name for Mumtaz Mahal. And Taj means imperial crown.Ajjay (talk) 17:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literal meanings of "Taj" and "Mahal" ? 

message: Would User:Irfanali care to explain the reasoning for this tag?--Nemonoman 01:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Taj Mahal NPOV Tag

message: Well there were 4 votes, all objections. 
What a dismal turnout, and what a statement about this article, and Wiki and Wikipedians. Yikes.
Anyway here are the main concerns, in case anybody wants to address them and bring this article up to quality sufficient to reach the exalted status granted Stephen Colbert at the 2006 White House Correspondents' Association Dinner, CPU cache, and Ido
:*Strongly Object. The history section is too short, while legends and kooky theories are given more importance. The tedious details of the design can be shorted or parcelled off into a separate article. The organization also needs to be worked on. Also, there is absolutely nothing on the incredible influence that it has wielded on the art and culture of India, its use as a symbol of love, etc. — Ravikiran 19:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Object An article this size needs many more in-line citations. Also too many stubby sections and lists, on top of a poor and underdeveloped lead.UberCryxic 02:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured article status 

message: There is no relevant basis for this template, and it has no relevance to this article. I note that it is proposed for deletion. The sooner the better.--Nemonoman 02:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who came up with this template? 

message: The terms "chatris" and "chhatris" appear to be used interchangeably in reference to certain a architectural component. (See use of the second in various places above and the first in the image (Image:TajDesignVocabulary.jpg) in the article.) Definitions on the web show there is a relationship between the two, but also a subtle difference. Which one is preferred? It sounds like "chhatris" is used for an architectural component of a larger structure, but "chatris" is used for a free-standing structure with the same characteristics (the umbrella shape). In the article "chatris" is spelled with a double 't' (chattris). If someone knows the preferred spelling, perhaps they could correct the inconsistency. Bear475 00:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  chatris / chattris / chhatris 

message: Some child entered between sentence 1 and 2 "Ben Perez helped, he was on meth and ruined the project." Easy edit. Kidshare 05:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed vandalism in intro paragraph 

message: Oak's assertions are not accepted by legitimate scholars.
:Hard to find a citation to prove a negative. The fact that none of Oak's assertions have been referenced, cited, or independently confirmed in any researchers, coupled with the court cases decided against him (referenced in the paragraph that follows), certainly proves that the statement is true.
But these stories are widely believed and publicized by some contemporary Hindutva (Hindu nationalist) activists.
:One need only look at the discussion page for this article, and at the countless attempts to entirely delete this article in favor of cut and pastes of the Oak Taj Mahal webpage (including the subsequent edit wars and wailing and gnashing of teeth when the edit is reverted), to find ample evidence for this statement.
:In effect the statements are self-evident, but useful to address the uncertainties of persons new to the subject. --Nemonoman 01:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'citation needed' in Oak section 

message: For your information the architect of Taj Mahal was not Shah Jahan. The architect was a renowned Persian Architect. His name was Ustad(means master)Muhammad Issa Khan and he hailed from Shiraz in Iran.
Shah Jahan had the monument built for his beloved wife, who was a Persian Princess, by the name of Mumtaz Mahal. 
If one can not find correct architectural information on your Site, how can one trust your Site? 
you can find his picture here=>  http://www.pbase.com/k_amj/image/69334591
213.207.238.78 11:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you talking about? The article never says that Shah Jahan designed it, just that he commissioned it. See the section on "Craftsmen". Paul B 13:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Taj Mahal's Architect 

message: This is ridiculous, Ustad Issa Khan was not a Persian he was trained by the Ottoman architect Mimar Sinan. He was a Sunni Ottoman Turkish muslim, not a Shia Persian from Persia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.53.58 (talk) 18:24, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ustad Issa Khan was not Persian he was an Ottoman Turk

message: It is clear from the accounts of its inception and the subsequent court histories, that Shah Jahan intended the Taj Mahal to be acclaimed by the entire world. It can be argued that he was almost entirely successful in this pursuit. Since its construction the building has been the source of an admiration that has transcended cultures and geography to the extent that the personal and emotional responses to the building have consistently eclipsed the scholastic appraisals of the monument. Some of these responses are now so old or compeling that they are imbedded in a global psyche and are often repeated as fact in opposition to the scholastic consensus. Others have attempted to use or promote misinformation about the Taj for political or self-serving advantage.Koch, p.231 
A longstanding popular tradition holds that an identical mausoleum complex for Shah Jahan was to be built in black marble instead of white on the site of the moonlight garden. Known as the 'black taj' this idea can trace its roots to the fanciful writings of an early european traveller called Jean-Baptiste Tavernier who visited Agra in 1665 whilst Jahan was incarcerated in the Agra Fort. The story suggests that Shah Jahan was overthrown by his son Aurangzeb before the black version could be built. Excavations of the moonlight garden were carried out in the 1990s and found no evidence of such foundations in the ruins of the garden, only white marble features discoloured completely to black by polution and the frequent flooding of the site. Speculation continues that the black taj may refer to the reflection of the Taj in the large pool of the garden or possibly the reflection, seen by Jahan in his last days from Agra fort, through imperfect mirrors.Koch, p.249
The lack of complete and reliable information as to whom the credit for the design belongs, has lead to innumerable speculations. The most notable and frequently repeated is that the Taj Mahal's architect was Ustad Isa from Ottoman Turkey. Reliable sources suggest the story is fictious, and was born of the readiness of the British in the 19th century to believe that such a beautiful building should be credited to a European architect. Local informants are also reported to have supplied the British with ficticious lists of workmen and materials from all over Asia.Building Details of Taj Mahal A related and earlier notion, first documented by the Spanish friar Sebastian Manrique in 1641, suggests the monument was the work of the Venetian goldsmith called Geronimo Veroneo.
In a pattern typical of many of the world's most famous building, a number of stories describe, often in horrific detail, the deaths, dismemberments and mutilations which Shah Jahan inflicted on various architects and craftsmen associated with the tomb. More conservative stories moderate the idea to that of a contract signed by those involved in the building's construction committing to have no part in any similar design. No evidence for these claims exist.Koch, p.239
There is an often-repeated story that Lord William Bentinck, governor of India in the 1830s, planned to demolish the Taj Mahal and auction off the marble. There is no contemporary evidence for this story, which may have emerged in the late nineteenth century when Bentinck was being criticised for his penny-pinching Utilitarianism, and when Lord Curzon was emphasising earlier neglect of the monument, and presenting himself as a saviour of Indian antiquities. According to Bentinck's biographer John Rosselli, the story arose from Bentinck's fund-raising sale of discarded marble from Agra Fort and of the metal from a famous but obsolete Agra cannon.Rosselli, J., Lord William Bentinck the making of a Liberal Imperialist, 1774-1839, London Chatto and Windus for Sussex University Press 1974, p.283 However, others, led by the Archaeological Survey of India, still believe and argue that a sale by the British East India Company was planned under Lord Bentinck's watch, though no satisfactory buyers were found.Saurabh Sinha, East India Co tried to sell Taj Mahal, The Times of India, August, 20 2005 Amy Waldman, The Taj Mahal Is a Glorious Survivor, The New York Times, May, 16,2004
In recent years, elements within India have become interested in the ideas of P.N. Oak. He claims that the origins of the Taj, together with all the other historic structures in the country currently ascribed to Muslim sultans, pre-date the Muslim occupation of India and have a Hindu origin.  In 2000 India's Supreme Court dismissed Oak's petition to declare that a Hindu king built the Taj Mahal and reprimanded him for bringing the action.Supreme Court Dismisses Oak's Petition
A more poetic story relates that once a year, a single drop of water falls on the cenotaph during the rainy season,  paralleling the Bengali poet Rabindranath Tagore's description of the tomb as "one solitary tear hanging on the cheek of time".Koch, p.240
:Any comments or thoughts for inclusion/deletion/rewriting? --Joopercoopers 01:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't say that "India has become interested in the ideas of P.N. Oak" - that implies greater popularity and currency than they actually enjoy. Perhaps "the ideas of P.N. Oak have acquired some notoriety in India" ? Sikandarji 15:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As it stands, it's about as neutral as I can make it - Oak's notoriety appears to be global, whereas the actual interest in his ideas appears confined to india. edit as you see fit though. --Joopercoopers 15:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've specified it a little more - "elements within India have become interested in the ideas of P.N. Oak" - hows that? --Joopercoopers 18:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Should be fine - I would say that outside India (and sections of the diaspora) he isn't even notorious: I know about him because I've done some work on Indian history and I've spent a lot of time there, and even within India he's not taken very seriously. The problem is that in the weird and wacky world of the internet, with its thousands of spiralling conspiracy theories, people like Oak come to acquire a wholly exaggerated significance - that's how he became so prominent on this page. Sikandarji 19:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite of Myths section

message: a redirect has been made for the common misspelling of taj mahal: 
Tai_Mahal
Thank you --'•Tbone55•(Talk) (Contribs) (UBX)  (autographbook)  20:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect  

message: Here, finally, is the text and translation I promised. Sorry it's taken so long - my Persian isn't all that good, and I had to get some help from a friend:
===Persian text===
روز جمعه هفدهم جمادي الاولیا نعش مقدس مسافر اقليم تقدس حضرت مهد عليا ممتاز الزماني را که بطريق امانت مدفون بود مصحوب بادشاهزاد نامدار محمد شاه شجاع بهادور و وزير خان و ستي النساء خانم که بمزاج شناسی و کارداني بدرجهء اولای پيش دستي و وکالت آن مالکهء جهان ملکهء جهانيان رسيده بود روانهء دار الخلافهء اکبر آباد نمودند -  و حکم شد که هر روز در راه آش بسيار و دراهم و دنانير بی شمار بفقرا و نيازمندان بدهند - و زمينی در نهايت رفعت و نزاهت که جنوب رويهء آن مصر جامع است - و پيش ازين منزل رجه مانسنگه بود - و درينوقت براجه جيسنگه نبير او تعلق داشت - برای مدفن آن بهشت موطن بر گزيدند - اگرچه رجه جيسنگه حصول اين دولت را فوز عظيم دانست - اما از روی احتياط که در جميع شيون خاصوصا امور دينيه ناگزير است - در عوض آن عالي منزلی از خالصهء شريفه باو مرحمت فرمودند - بعد از رسيدن نعش بأن شهر کرامت بهر پانزدهم جمادي الثانيه سال آينده پيگر نورانئ آن آسماني جوهر بخاک پاک سپرده آمد و متصديان دار الخلافه بحکم معلیا عجالة الوقت تربت فلک مرتبت آن جهان عفت را از نظر پوشيدند - و عمارتی عاليشان و گنبذی رفيع بنيان - که تا رستخيز در بلندي همت گردون رفعت حضرت صاحبقران ثاني باشد - و در استواري نمودار استقامت عزايم باني - طرح افگندند - و مهندسان دور بين و معماران صنعت آفرين چهل لک روپيه اخراجات اين عمارت براورد نمودند
'Abd al-Hamid Lahawri Badshah Namah Ed. Maulawis Kabir al-Din Ahmad and 'Abd al-Rahim under the superintendence of Major W. N. Lees. Vol. I Calcutta 1867 pp402-3
===English translation===
"On Friday 17th of the month of Jumadi al-awlia (Jumadi 1) people transported the blessed bier of the traveller to the holy iqlim [clime], Hazrat mahd-‘aliya Mumtaz al-Zamani, in order that Mumtaz al-Zamani might be buried in accordance with religious practice, together with the renowned prince Mahmud Shah Shujah Bahadur and Wazir Khan and Sati al-nissa Khanym, whose wisdom and sagacity had elevated that worldly queen of the empire of mortals to a state of absolute pre-eminence and vicegerency, to Akbarabad [Agra], the Dar al-khilafa. And an order went out that every day along the road people should hand out lots of food and countless dirhams and dinars to the poor and needy. And there is an area of land which is incomparably exalted and delectable, whose southern boundary abuts onto a mosque. And previously this was the manzil [halting-place, caravanserai] of Rajah Man Singh. And at that time his grandson Jai Singh held the ta‘luq [lordship, possession]. It was chosen for the burial of that dweller in paradise. This was despite the fact that the Rajah of Agra Jai Singh recognised this possession to be an extremely valuable resource. But on account of that need which brooks no opposition in all things, particularly in matters of religion, they requested that he relinquish that manzil from out of his own noble possession. After the bier’s arrival at that city of remarkable beauty on the 15th of Jumadi al-thaniyah (Jumadi 2)of the [coming?] year, the shining face of that bejewelled heaven was laid in the pure earth. Following orders by the eminent ‘ajalat al-waqt, lowly officials of the Dar al-khilafa concealed the virtuous princess from people’s gaze by building a mausoleum which reached up to the heavens. They laid the foundations for an enormous building, with great wide domes: may it last until Judgement Day in the form intended by his heavenly-elevated eminence, the second Sahib-i Quran [i.e. Shah Jahan, the 2nd Timur], as a resolute example of great building works. Far-sighted engineers and skilled architects expended forty lakhs of rupees [Rs.4,000,000] on the construction of this building."
That seems pretty clear - the translation of Manzil has been disputed, but in Persian it does not suggest a large building, and in any case the subsequent construction is described clearly. Should this go on the main page? Sikandarji 13:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, thank you Sikandarji! Can you identify the source and date of the original text?--Nemonoman 13:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: That's fantastic. here's the citable translation of manzil you left on my talk page yesterday. --Joopercoopers 13:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Badshahnama of Lahauri is the official court chronicle of Shah Jahan's reign, composed in the 1670s or 1680s. If you want to see just how much conspiratorial crap this one passage has generated over the years, just try typing "Badshahnama" into Google and see some of the poisonous rubbish that comes up. The passage is always paraphrased, never accurately or fully translated, and with the section at the end which describes the building of the Taj carefully ignored or omitted (see for instance that charlatan Stephen Knapp's website, where he has a scan of the printed edition of page 403 of the Badshahnama which is so blurred as to be illegible - and with no translation). Hopefully this full and accurate transcription and translation will help lay these absurd myths to rest. Sikandarji 15:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My initial thought is we should include it in full as a footnote, but I seem to remember reading a policy somewhere about translation that discourages using personally translated material as a citation...........let me go and check..........--Joopercoopers 14:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: "English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia. Sources in other languages are acceptable if no English equivalents have been found. Published translations are preferred to editors' translations; when editors use their own translations, the original-language material should be provided too, preferably in a footnote, so that readers can check the translation for themselves."
There's some other problems with its inclusion though on WP:ATT#Primary_and_secondary_sources.
So we have to include the persian and english, in a footnote and cite it from a secondary source if possible, phew! Are you sure this book  doesn't contain a translation we could use -  Koch seems to refer to it a lot for her translations - I've got it on order from amazon but they've just informed me its going to be a month or two before it arrives. grrrr. --Joopercoopers 15:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does exist here though  any chance? --Joopercoopers 15:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll see if I can pop up to the Indian Institute tomorrow and have a look. We do have the Persian text so that people can check the translation, plus it comes from a published edition of the Badshahnama which is a source that can be found in libraries and therefore does not constitute original research per se, as it would if it were in manuscript. Sikandarji 15:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, there is a translation of this passage of the Badshahnama in Begley and Desai (I could have saved myself a whole lot of trouble). One problem is that, for reasons best known to themselves, they have chosen to translate Manzil, as "Mansion" (Why? on the principle of assonance?) More seriously, perhaps, there is a bit of a discrepancy between my translation of one passage: "This was despite the fact that the Rajah of Agra Jai Singh recognised this possession to be an extremely valuable resource. But on account of that need which brooks no opposition in all things, particularly in matters of religion, they requested that he relinquish that manzil from out of his own noble possession." and theirs, which runs: "Even though Raja Jai Singh considered the acquisition (husul) of this to be his good fortune and a great success, by way of utmost care, which is absolutely necessary in all important things, particularly in religious matters, a lofty mansion from the crown estates (khalisa-sharifa) was granted to him in exchange ( 'iwad)." On looking over the Persian again I think they're probably right on this one. In any case I think Wikipedia rules dictate that we should use their translation, as using mine in preference to it in these circumstances would constitute "original research". It doesn't matter too much anyway: this text, and that of all the other contemporary chronicles of which there are translations in the Begley & Desai volume make it quite clear that this is a new building.
W.E. Begley and Z.A. Desai (Ed., Comp. & Trans.): Taj Mahal : the illumined tomb : an anthology of seventeenth-century Mughal and European documentary sources (Cambridge, MA & Seattle WA: Aga Khan Program for Islamic Architecture) 1989 pp42-3
"5.2. LAHORI
Body of the Queen taken to Akbarabad
On Friday, the 17th of Jumada I [or 21 Jumada I 1041/15 December 1631?], the holy dead body of the traveler {sic} to the realm (iqlim) of piety, her late Majesty the Queen Mumtaz al-Zamani, which had been temporarily (ba-tariq-i-amanat) buried, [p.403] was dispatched to the Abode of the Caliphate Akbarabad, accompanied by the illustrious Prince Muhammad Shah Shuja' Bahadur,Wazir Khan and Satti al-Nisa Khanan, who had risen, through temperamental compatibility {!} and skill, to the exalted position of chief Lady-in-Waiting and deputyship of that Lady of the world and the Queen of the people of the world. And it was ordered that all along the way, every day abundant food and innumerable silver and gold coins should be given to the needy and the indigent.
As there was a large tract of land (zamini) of great eminence and pleasantness towards the south of that large city, on which there was before this the mansion (manzil) of Raja Man Singh, and which now belonged to his grandson Raja Jai Singh, it was selected for the burial place (madfan) of that tenant of Paradise. Even though Raja Jai Singh considered the acquisition (husul) of this to be his good fortune and a great success, by way of utmost care, which is absolutely necessary in all important things, particularly in religious matters, a lofty mansion from the crown estates (khalisa-sharifa) was granted to him in exchange ( 'iwad).
After the arrival of the dead body in that highly dignified city, on the 15th Jumada II 1041 [8 January 1632] of the next regnal year, the luminous body of that heavenly essence was confined to the holy earth. The overseers (mutasaddiyan) of the Abode of the Caliphate, under exalted orders, hastily concealed from the public gaze (nazar) the heaven-ranked grave (turbat) of that world of chastity.
Foundation of the Tomb
And plans were laid out (tarah afganand) for a magnificent building ( 'imarat-i-alishan) and a dome (gumbadi) of lofty foundation (rafi-'buniyan), which for height (dar bulandi) will, until the day of resurrection, remain a memorial to the sky-high aspiration of his Majesty the Second Sahib-Qiran and which for strength (dar ustwari) will display the firmness of the intentions of its builder. And the far-seeing engineers (muhandisan) and art-creating architects (mi'maran-i-sanat-afrin) estimated the cost of this building ( 'imarat) would be 40 lakhs of rupees." Sikandarji 15:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for doing that Sikandarji, the plot thickens.........looking at your translation link again here I notice that about the ninth meaning of manzil is mansion, that said a search for the persian word for mansion  yields 67 results - discounting 27-28 of them for lunar mansions (although manzil is one of these) that still leaves 40-odd words in persian for mansion????? Reading Koch last night, she says that lahauri's use of language to describe jahan's buildings was consistent in its use of terms (I think, need to read the passage again) so either 1. Begley and Desai have mistranslated the passage or 2. Manzil is the appropriate Persian word or 3. Lahauri was in the habit of using Manzil to mean mansion and a scholar who's read all his writings can rightly translate it that way. We can only report the scholars, if they say it means a mansion, it's a mansion.......I'm starting to think an email to Koch, Begley and Desai might be in order so they can point us in the right direction. --Joopercoopers 15:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there's no need - Koch, p.261-262 offers a glossary "Manzil" - Mansion of a noble;in later Mughal times replaced by the term haveli. We've got Begley, Desai and Koch (Koch used Dr Yunus Jaffery for her translations) all translating Manzil as mansion, so we're duty bound to write it up like that - I'm relaxed about that, it makes sense that such a prominent and well appointed location should contain some kind of structure. --Joopercoopers 23:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh-ho - well I know Dr Jaffery quite well - I had Persian lessons with him in Delhi for two months last year, and I'm not sure there's any greater expert on Indian Persian. He's certainly very familiar with the text of the Badshahnama. I could call him up and ask him if you like, although he might be a little surprised to hear from me out of the blue like that. Sikandarji 07:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good grief, what a small world. That would be great, if only for peace of mind - I did look for his email address but couldn't find one.--Joopercoopers 12:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Badshahnama

message: "On Friday 17th of the month of Jumadi al-awlia (Jumadi 1) people transported the blessed bier of the traveller to the holy iqlim [clime], Hazrat mahd-‘aliya Mumtaz al-Zamani, in order that Mumtaz al-Zamani might be buried in accordance with religious practice, together with the renowned prince Mahmud Shah Shujah Bahadur and Wazir Khan and Sati al-nissa Khanym, whose wisdom and sagacity had elevated that worldly queen of the empire of mortals to a state of absolute pre-eminence and vicegerency, to Akbarabad [Agra], the Dar al-khilafa. And an order went out that every day along the road people should hand out lots of food and countless dirhams and dinars to the poor and needy. And there is an area of land which is incomparably exalted and delectable, whose southern boundary abuts onto a mosque. And previously this was the manzil [halting-place, caravanserai] of Rajah Man Singh. And at that time his grandson Jai Singh held the ta‘luq [lordship, possession]. It was chosen for the burial of that dweller in paradise. This was despite the fact that the Rajah of Agra Jai Singh recognised this possession to be an extremely valuable resource. But on account of that need which brooks no opposition in all things, particularly in matters of religion, they requested that he relinquish that manzil from out of his own noble possession. After the bier’s arrival at that city of remarkable beauty on the 15th of Jumadi al-thaniyah (Jumadi 2)of the [coming?] year, the shining face of that bejewelled heaven was laid in the pure earth. Following orders by the eminent ‘ajalat al-waqt, lowly officials of the Dar al-khilafa concealed the virtuous princess from people’s gaze by building a mausoleum which reached up to the heavens. They laid the foundations for an enormous building, with great wide domes: may it last until Judgement Day in the form intended by his heavenly-elevated eminence, the second Sahib-i Quran [i.e. Shah Jahan, the 2nd Timur], as a resolute example of great building works. Far-sighted engineers and skilled architects expended forty lakhs of rupees [Rs.4,000,000] on the construction of this building."
That seems pretty clear - the translation of Manzil has been disputed, but in Persian it does not suggest a large building, and in any case the subsequent construction is described clearly. Should this go on the main page? Sikandarji 13:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, thank you Sikandarji! Can you identify the source and date of the original text?--Nemonoman 13:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: That's fantastic. here's the citable translation of manzil you left on my talk page yesterday. --Joopercoopers 13:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Badshahnama of Lahauri is the official court chronicle of Shah Jahan's reign, composed in the 1670s or 1680s. If you want to see just how much conspiratorial crap this one passage has generated over the years, just try typing "Badshahnama" into Google and see some of the poisonous rubbish that comes up. The passage is always paraphrased, never accurately or fully translated, and with the section at the end which describes the building of the Taj carefully ignored or omitted (see for instance that charlatan Stephen Knapp's website, where he has a scan of the printed edition of page 403 of the Badshahnama which is so blurred as to be illegible - and with no translation). Hopefully this full and accurate transcription and translation will help lay these absurd myths to rest. Sikandarji 15:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My initial thought is we should include it in full as a footnote, but I seem to remember reading a policy somewhere about translation that discourages using personally translated material as a citation...........let me go and check..........--Joopercoopers 14:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: "English-language sources should be used whenever possible, because this is the English Wikipedia. Sources in other languages are acceptable if no English equivalents have been found. Published translations are preferred to editors' translations; when editors use their own translations, the original-language material should be provided too, preferably in a footnote, so that readers can check the translation for themselves."
There's some other problems with its inclusion though on WP:ATT#Primary_and_secondary_sources.
So we have to include the persian and english, in a footnote and cite it from a secondary source if possible, phew! Are you sure this book  doesn't contain a translation we could use -  Koch seems to refer to it a lot for her translations - I've got it on order from amazon but they've just informed me its going to be a month or two before it arrives. grrrr. --Joopercoopers 15:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does exist here though  any chance? --Joopercoopers 15:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I'll see if I can pop up to the Indian Institute tomorrow and have a look. We do have the Persian text so that people can check the translation, plus it comes from a published edition of the Badshahnama which is a source that can be found in libraries and therefore does not constitute original research per se, as it would if it were in manuscript. Sikandarji 15:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: English translation

message: :::You're right, there is a translation of this passage of the Badshahnama in Begley and Desai (I could have saved myself a whole lot of trouble). One problem is that, for reasons best known to themselves, they have chosen to translate Manzil, as "Mansion" (Why? on the principle of assonance?) More seriously, perhaps, there is a bit of a discrepancy between my translation of one passage: "This was despite the fact that the Rajah of Agra Jai Singh recognised this possession to be an extremely valuable resource. But on account of that need which brooks no opposition in all things, particularly in matters of religion, they requested that he relinquish that manzil from out of his own noble possession." and theirs, which runs: "Even though Raja Jai Singh considered the acquisition (husul) of this to be his good fortune and a great success, by way of utmost care, which is absolutely necessary in all important things, particularly in religious matters, a lofty mansion from the crown estates (khalisa-sharifa) was granted to him in exchange ( 'iwad)." On looking over the Persian again I think they're probably right on this one. In any case I think Wikipedia rules dictate that we should use their translation, as using mine in preference to it in these circumstances would constitute "original research". It doesn't matter too much anyway: this text, and that of all the other contemporary chronicles of which there are translations in the Begley & Desai volume make it quite clear that this is a new building.
W.E. Begley and Z.A. Desai (Ed., Comp. & Trans.): Taj Mahal : the illumined tomb : an anthology of seventeenth-century Mughal and European documentary sources (Cambridge, MA & Seattle WA: Aga Khan Program for Islamic Architecture) 1989 pp42-3
"5.2. LAHORI
Body of the Queen taken to Akbarabad
On Friday, the 17th of Jumada I [or 21 Jumada I 1041/15 December 1631?], the holy dead body of the traveler {sic} to the realm (iqlim) of piety, her late Majesty the Queen Mumtaz al-Zamani, which had been temporarily (ba-tariq-i-amanat) buried, [p.403] was dispatched to the Abode of the Caliphate Akbarabad, accompanied by the illustrious Prince Muhammad Shah Shuja' Bahadur,Wazir Khan and Satti al-Nisa Khanan, who had risen, through temperamental compatibility {!} and skill, to the exalted position of chief Lady-in-Waiting and deputyship of that Lady of the world and the Queen of the people of the world. And it was ordered that all along the way, every day abundant food and innumerable silver and gold coins should be given to the needy and the indigent.
As there was a large tract of land (zamini) of great eminence and pleasantness towards the south of that large city, on which there was before this the mansion (manzil) of Raja Man Singh, and which now belonged to his grandson Raja Jai Singh, it was selected for the burial place (madfan) of that tenant of Paradise. Even though Raja Jai Singh considered the acquisition (husul) of this to be his good fortune and a great success, by way of utmost care, which is absolutely necessary in all important things, particularly in religious matters, a lofty mansion from the crown estates (khalisa-sharifa) was granted to him in exchange ( 'iwad).
After the arrival of the dead body in that highly dignified city, on the 15th Jumada II 1041 [8 January 1632] of the next regnal year, the luminous body of that heavenly essence was confined to the holy earth. The overseers (mutasaddiyan) of the Abode of the Caliphate, under exalted orders, hastily concealed from the public gaze (nazar) the heaven-ranked grave (turbat) of that world of chastity.
Foundation of the Tomb
And plans were laid out (tarah afganand) for a magnificent building ( 'imarat-i-alishan) and a dome (gumbadi) of lofty foundation (rafi-'buniyan), which for height (dar bulandi) will, until the day of resurrection, remain a memorial to the sky-high aspiration of his Majesty the Second Sahib-Qiran and which for strength (dar ustwari) will display the firmness of the intentions of its builder. And the far-seeing engineers (muhandisan) and art-creating architects (mi'maran-i-sanat-afrin) estimated the cost of this building ( 'imarat) would be 40 lakhs of rupees." Sikandarji 15:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for doing that Sikandarji, the plot thickens.........looking at your translation link again here I notice that about the ninth meaning of manzil is mansion, that said a search for the persian word for mansion  yields 67 results - discounting 27-28 of them for lunar mansions (although manzil is one of these) that still leaves 40-odd words in persian for mansion????? Reading Koch last night, she says that lahauri's use of language to describe jahan's buildings was consistent in its use of terms (I think, need to read the passage again) so either 1. Begley and Desai have mistranslated the passage or 2. Manzil is the appropriate Persian word or 3. Lahauri was in the habit of using Manzil to mean mansion and a scholar who's read all his writings can rightly translate it that way. We can only report the scholars, if they say it means a mansion, it's a mansion.......I'm starting to think an email to Koch, Begley and Desai might be in order so they can point us in the right direction. --Joopercoopers 15:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there's no need - Koch, p.261-262 offers a glossary "Manzil" - Mansion of a noble;in later Mughal times replaced by the term haveli. We've got Begley, Desai and Koch (Koch used Dr Yunus Jaffery for her translations) all translating Manzil as mansion, so we're duty bound to write it up like that - I'm relaxed about that, it makes sense that such a prominent and well appointed location should contain some kind of structure. --Joopercoopers 23:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh-ho - well I know Dr Jaffery quite well - I had Persian lessons with him in Delhi for two months last year, and I'm not sure there's any greater expert on Indian Persian. He's certainly very familiar with the text of the Badshahnama. I could call him up and ask him if you like, although he might be a little surprised to hear from me out of the blue like that. Sikandarji 07:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good grief, what a small world. That would be great, if only for peace of mind - I did look for his email address but couldn't find one.--Joopercoopers 12:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: search for a secondary source

message: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/photographic_evidence_of_vedic_influence.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.140.148.33 (talk) 21:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Old news, belongs to same category as cheese-made-moon, ancient astronauts, and the tooth fairy. --Ragib 21:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evidences  

message: I think you should write the correct history  and then when people have to do reports, they have the right info —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.156.236.116 (talk) 17:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taj Mahal 

message: Did the Brits really think the Luftwaffe could bomb the Taj Mahal? With Junkers taking off from Italian East Africa? Seems unlikely; some war historian should look into this. The Japanese got much closer but that's another matter.  Axel 19:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question - I'll look into it. --Joopercoopers 19:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Luftwaffe? 

message: Really...An info box with 2 footnotes, including one that says that 'Asia Pacific' is a the official designation of the Asia pacific area?? That tells us the official name of Taj Mahal is Taj Mahal? 
None of this information is of particular use.
I might as well put the 'Stairway' infobox:
Number of stairs leading to Mausoleum: 2
Number of steps1: 15 each
Height of riser2: 20 cm
1 Step is the official designation of the ASA
2 some people measure in inches 
etc.
The 1983 date of its designation is in the first paragraph. A footnote might be added:
It was listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 1983 when it was described as a "universally admired masterpieces of the world's heritage".1
1 Designated as ID 252 during the 7th session.
Enough.
Even that isn't needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nemonoman (talk • contribs) 11:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've ditched it altogether - it's adding nothing to the article other than layout headaches. --Joopercoopers 17:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unesco infobox 

message: :The finial was made of gold until the early 1800s, and it is now made of bronze.
A minor point, but reading this, I wanted the article to answer the immediate natural question:  Why?  Tempshill 16:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finial 

message: As shown by the image, there was unfinished foundation of "mirror" image of Taj Mahal. Perhaps its 
not a myth at all. See the image on Google maps.
:Yes, but is it of an unfinished "black" Taj? Nothing suggests that this building is, was or might have been  black. Paul B 17:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It always was an integral part of the complex - but certainly wasn't a black taj.......
====Moonlight garden (Mahtab Bagh)====
To the north of the Taj Mahal complex, across the river is another Charbagh garden. It was designed as an integral part of the complex in the riverfront terrace pattern seen elsewhere in Agra. Its width is identical to that of the rest of the Taj. The garden historian Elizabeth Moynihan suggests the large ocatagonal pool in the centre of the terrace would reflect the image of the Mausoleum and thus the garden would provide a setting to view the Taj Mahal. The garden has been beset by flooding from the river since Mughal times. As a result, the condition of the remaining structures is quite ruinous. Four sandstone towers marked the corners of the garden, only the southeastward one remains. The foundations of two structures remain immediately north and south of the large pool which were probably garden pavilions. From the northern structure a stepped waterfall would have fed the pool. The garden to the north has the typical square, cross-axial plan with a square pool in its centre. To the west an aquaduct fed the garden.Koch, p.56
--Joopercoopers 15:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, I'd looked up the basic facts about the garden, but hadn't had time to check out the details. I believe it has been recently excavated. It's worth noting that the editor who uploaded this has created a page Black Taj that needs to be looked at. No time at the moment! Paul B 15:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I've redirected it here. It was a partly incoherent and barely concealed advertisment for someone making a model of what the BT might have looked like. Paul B 16:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let's find out more about the fact of Mahtab Garden and add it to the main Taj Mahal article. I presumed that it was the foundation of Black Taj which is so often talked about. Uploaded the image when I saw it on Google Earth. ~atif - 17:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: BTW who created article for BT?? ~atif - 17:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article was created by User:Fizasr, who is possibly one Iftakhar Nadime Khan, advertising the fact that he is making a miniature model of the BT in ebony. Fizasr hasn't made any edits to any other page. I wrongly implied earlier that the article was created by the person who uploaded the image (i.e. you). Paul B 13:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't google earth images copyvio - or are we allowed to use them now? --Joopercoopers 13:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Taj Mahal should be removed from the Myth section 

message: To the north of the Taj Mahal complex, across the river is another Charbagh garden. It was designed as an integral part of the complex in the riverfront terrace pattern seen elsewhere in Agra. Its width is identical to that of the rest of the Taj. The garden historian Elizabeth Moynihan suggests the large ocatagonal pool in the centre of the terrace would reflect the image of the Mausoleum and thus the garden would provide a setting to view the Taj Mahal. The garden has been beset by flooding from the river since Mughal times. As a result, the condition of the remaining structures is quite ruinous. Four sandstone towers marked the corners of the garden, only the southeastward one remains. The foundations of two structures remain immediately north and south of the large pool which were probably garden pavilions. From the northern structure a stepped waterfall would have fed the pool. The garden to the north has the typical square, cross-axial plan with a square pool in its centre. To the west an aquaduct fed the garden.Koch, p.56
--Joopercoopers 15:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I'd looked up the basic facts about the garden, but hadn't had time to check out the details. I believe it has been recently excavated. It's worth noting that the editor who uploaded this has created a page Black Taj that needs to be looked at. No time at the moment! Paul B 15:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I've redirected it here. It was a partly incoherent and barely concealed advertisment for someone making a model of what the BT might have looked like. Paul B 16:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let's find out more about the fact of Mahtab Garden and add it to the main Taj Mahal article. I presumed that it was the foundation of Black Taj which is so often talked about. Uploaded the image when I saw it on Google Earth. ~atif - 17:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: BTW who created article for BT?? ~atif - 17:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article was created by User:Fizasr, who is possibly one Iftakhar Nadime Khan, advertising the fact that he is making a miniature model of the BT in ebony. Fizasr hasn't made any edits to any other page. I wrongly implied earlier that the article was created by the person who uploaded the image (i.e. you). Paul B 13:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't google earth images copyvio - or are we allowed to use them now? --Joopercoopers 13:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moonlight garden (Mahtab Bagh)

message: Anyone who has been there has several. This article is already overcrowded with photos. New photos should either replace an existing photo (by providing a significant and appreciable improvement), or show some aspect of the Taj Mahal that has not already been pictured. --Nemonoman 03:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  YATMSS (Yet another Taj Mahal Snapshot) 

message: In 1631 Shah Jahan, emperor during the Mughal's period of greatest prosperity, was griefstricken when his second wife, Mumtaz Mahal, died during the birth of their daughter Gauhara Begum, their fourteenth child.
Contemporary court chronicles concerning Shah Jahan's grief form the basis of the love story traditionally held as the inspiration for the Taj Mahal.
Ask any women in the world, death on fourteenth child birth and relation with Monument of Slavery?
vkvora 04:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Monument of Slavery. 

message: http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/taj_oak.html
:old news - see the RFC above. --Joopercoopers 11:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Not really built by Shah Jahan?

message: Am I the only one who is disturbed that the picture labeled as "The actual tombs of Shah Jahan and Mumtaz Mahal in the crypt of the Taj Mahal" is obviously computer-generated?
:Apparently you're the only one who thinks they are computer-generated, obviously or otherwise. PS. Sign your comments.--Nemonoman 22:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They're just taken with a very wide angle lens I think. --Mcginnly | Natter 13:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Computer Generated Image 

message: You must remove New Seven Wonders from the Taj Mahal entry, as they are effectively a "Commercial Site"
http://blogulate.com/content/is-the-new7wonders-a-scam
--—Preceding unsigned comment added by Donelson (talk • contribs) 
: New Seven Wonders is not linked to from this article.  What you removed is a template which has been suggested for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 July 13.  Please stop adding commercial links to the article (and avoid using blogs as references). Thank you
: / Mats Halldin (talk) 11:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Donelson has added no "commercial links" that I am aware of (is this the "tour Taj" thing?). However, there is no rule against referring to blogs on Talk pages. Paul B 11:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Seven Wonders IS a commercial site 

message: Template: has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. --Joopercoopers 11:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TfD nomination of [[:Template:{{ucfirst:New Seven Wonders}}]]

message: I see links to a number of "commercial" sites in the References section.
Shouldn't these be deleted as well?
Donelson 14 July 07
:Not if they're actually being used as references --Joopercoopers 09:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to commercial sites in section: References 

message: Did somebody request this protection? Seems odd...--Nemonoman 01:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's only protected from anons and new users. To stop vandalism and spammers. Nobody asked me, I just saw it on my wathlist. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 01:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Nine attacks in two days is a fair bit really. But you can ask someone else to unprotect if you want. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 04:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: To be honest Nom, I'll be glad of the rest for a bit. --Joopercoopers 09:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not a big deal really - don't you remember we had it semi-protected for a few weeks, some months ago? The policy is WP:PROTECT and I'm sure there's someone at WP:AN who will unprotect it in a snip if you were to request it. Personally, a week or two's protection while things die down regarding the N7W's would be welcome relief. Regards --Joopercoopers 14:43, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  what i suggest is this article is reviewd and written so that any claims are backed either with a solid citation of evidence or else with some plausable reasoning that is given beside the claim itself.  rather than saying 'it is believed' or other nonesense.  this will mean that people will not write anything unless they can back it up some how.  if they do it will stand out. --Balvinder1 20:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protecting [[Taj Mahal]] 

message: i just wanted to draw to the attention to anyone who cares to note.  there is a site known as 'bibi ka muqbara' down towards the south of india.  It was built as a muqbara for one of Aurangzebs wifes by one of her sons.  its a beautiful building with strong resemblence to the Taj.  However unlike the Taj the name of an architect (a persian) is verifiable from an INSCRIPTION at the site.  Shah Jahan put a similar inscription upon the Pearl Mosque at Agra fort.  But why is there no suc inscription at the Taj?  There are tell tale signs that a persian designed the muqbara just from looking at it.  Contrast these to the Taj:  it is like a four-sided persian building, the site is nowhere near a river.  the 'minarets' here are indeed traditional minarets in that they are taller then the main building (the way every other minaret on every islamic building except the Taj tended to be in that time).  also look at the proportions.  further there is only one auxillary building- a mosque, that was built some itme later.  there is certainly no 'drum house', or 'jal mahals'. image available here: http://www.lib.lfc.edu/collections/benton/data/research/Ellora/albums/bibi_ki_maqbara/index.htm
http://www.lib.lfc.edu/collections/benton/data/research/Ellora/albums/bibi_ki_maqbara/pages/bibi_ki01.htm 
Balvinder1 21:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i dont know why i even bothered contributing to this.  someone please delete all my contributions here.  i dont want to be involved in any contriversies. Balvinder1 09:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  THE TAJ IN RELATION TO THE 'BIBI KA MUQBARA'