Talk:Horses in the Middle Ages

message: This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. There are a few minor problems I would suggest working on, such as the uncited fact under "Medieval horses in battle" (end of the first paragraph) and the fact that the Level Three Headers under "Types of medieval horses" are a bit too short for their own headings (even though they are just summaries of other articles, but I feel that they could be expanded) and some other small manual of style concerns (the lead could be a bit more encompassing, for example), but overall they are minor enough that I see no reason to delist. Cheers, CP 23:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We would appreciate clarification of what you meant by "small MOS concerns" besides the question about the lead.  We always aim to improve articles!  Thanks! Montanabw(talk) 06:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GA Sweeps (Pass)

message: Any reason this article is in :Category:Types of horses? Ealdgyth | Talk 19:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: We need to drop the Pyramid Society website. If only because they have so many wild ideas that just aren't in touch with reality. The refs need updating, mainly formatting issues that shouldn't be hard to fix. Probably some expansion of most of the sections is in order, particularly the Transportation and Work horses sections. I need to run down a paper I heard at a conference once, on how William the Conqueror transported his horses to England during the Norman Conquest. Definitely should think about putting in that section from the Bayeux tapestry of the horses on the ships . It's really not that far from FA, not having read the prose closely though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ealdgyth (talk • contribs) 4 April 2008
:The Bayeux tapestry/William stuff was split out to Horse transports in the Middle Ages.  There's more in Hyland on William's ships and so forth.  Most of the books ref'd are mine, so I can access more info fairly easily. I can certainly provide more about transportation and work horses, given time.  Also horse tack.  (Why do I have this stuff??) Gwinva (talk) 02:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And I was just thinking as I read the list of refs that dang, we share a lot of books in common. I have probably half of the books on the list, maybe a few more. And I have some others that have tidbits and stuff that we can work in. And I can get a ref for that pedigree claim out of something on my shelves, I know. Oh, while I'm thinking of it, what are the geographical boundaries of this article? Do we want stuff from the middle east and asia? (ponders Mongol ponies). Also time frame? (We have an article on horse transports in the middle ages? Gee, we really do get specialized.) Ealdgyth - Talk 02:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Middle Ages suggests 5th C-16th C; the strict definition of the period is quite euro-centric, but it wouldn't hurt to expand the boundaries and become more comprehensive.  As for sharing books: yeah, there seem to be a core group of books which everyone has: they all reference each other, too, if you scan their bibliographies!  Gwinva (talk) 03:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: My two bits:  The pyramid society cite was mine and is only for the proposition that the earliest written horse pedigrees in Europe date to around 1300.  I suggest it stay for now, at least until a better source for the same data can be found. (And when you find it, can you also update the same ref in Arabian horse?)   I agree that the Pyramid crowd is a bit flakey (Horse politics, Gwinva - LOL), but this bit of info rings pretty consistent with reality to me.  As for Mongols and such, take a look at Horses in warfare, where we try miserably to go worldwide.  There is also India, China, etc...I think we may be better off to just somehow be open that the Middle Ages here means the same thing Middle Ages does elsewhere in wiki, i.e. Europe.  I can also provide page refs for the Deb Bennett stuff, but you will have to nag me about that later.  Montanabw(talk) 04:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Quick look before thinking about FAC

message: Found the following:
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Haven't had a chance to read most of these yet, but going to start on them tonight. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible sources

message: By the late middle ages - or at least the Renaissance - there had evolved two distinct riding styles, at least in Spain, where most of the innovations in horsemanship were occurring anyway: the la brida and la jineta seats.  To oversimplify, la brida riders had long stirrups, a deep seat, lots of control (think knights), while la jineta riders, borrowing from the invasions of the Moors, rode shorter stirrups, lighter saddle and seat, lots of agility (think jockeys or show jumping riders of today). A true horseman was said to have been able to ride both seats.  What I do not know is the extent to which this is a Middle Ages thing versus more of a Renaissance thing.  Bennett discusses it in the context of the Conquistadors and their arrival in the New World (see excerpt here) and not sure if this can be traced clear back to the 800s or not.  Montanabw(talk) 00:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea to have an equestrianism section, showing the development of the riding style, and how it led to that later distinction and a discussion of the knights' straight legged style that we see in the drawings.  If I was the average, interested reader wanting an FA standard article about horses in the Middle Ages, I would want to know more than size, type and use: I'd want to know how they were ridden. We comment on how old films get the horse types wrong; I'm sure they get the riding style wrong.  Also, information on saddles and stirrups are all very well, but we need to see how that impacts on the riding.  Also logistics: how a knight on a horse controlled it: reins, spurs, knees and so forth.  I'll leave that to you people who actually understand this stuff!  Gwinva (talk) 02:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: One BIG problem:  We know a lot more about equipment than riding until one gets to about the 16th century, when the Renaissance sorts began to write new treatises on the subject. We can infer much from tack and art, but the modern interpretations are all over the place.  You recall the tough time sorting out the size issue; riding and training is worse! LOL!  What may work here is to start a wee sandbox here on the talk page with any summaries that Oakshott and others may have in their works, and we equestrians can figure out the details???  Montanabw(talk) 00:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

text: Oh, see also:  Stirrup#Adjustment_and_uses_of_stirrups for some details on the two seats, though not described as such (but discussing the general principles) Horse_collar#History, there are some contradictions with this article, may want to reconcile the two.  Feel free to swipe as needed. Montanabw(talk) 01:03, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How about User:Gwinva/HitMA?  The general sandboxing can take place there, and leave this page for general discussion. Added some stuff there that I've found. Gwinva (talk) 01:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okey Dokey. Montanabw(talk) 03:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another possible adventure in new section creation 

message: *Images  Are we happy?  Here are some others I've found on my travels.  I've got a couple of illustrations showing horse team (with breast and rigid collars) and tacked up horse, which I will upload once I figure out the tagging. Some good ones below to demonstrate riding styles, if you want to have a look, Montanabw. Could do with a picture to fit in with "trades" eg. farrier, but my quick look at commons turned up nothing medieval. found a few now The battle picture on the page is a bit gloomy; there must be a better one around somewhere. Gwinva (talk) 02:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Will check in detail tomorrow when I have high-speed access.  The battle picture?  Do you mean the one in the article?  (If so, there are three panels of that painting, in three different locations, one was "restored," but faded, the other two were left alone and have better color).  Montanabw(talk) 05:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, some general observations.  Everyone riding is riding la brida, none are examples of la jineta.  Want to shorten all of their stirrups a hole or two!  LOL! Montanabw(talk) 22:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okey dokey, you betcha, pardner.  (That's Montana-speak for "OK") 
* -- too much content for wiki illustration, too busy, though much in it is of interest -- the other images are broken out from this one,are they not?
*  - curb bit, bit chains, horse looks destrier type to me, heavy body, very baroque 
* - This one amuses me on many levels (the cat on the horse thing in particular! Good example of curb bit, la brida seat, horse with proper proportions, Benozzo Gozzoli knew horses and rendered them well.  Good artist to find more of his stuff maybe...
* -- this one is nice, lots of variety, bridles, breastcollars, spurs, nice horse, nice MULE too! (Note the cleric is on the mule, probably a more steady and mild-mannered animal for an elderly fellow, also more humble for a cleric) etc.
* - lovely high-stepping Spanish Jennet type horse, a bit more muscle than a ladies' palfrey - appears to be a stallion (cresty thick neck and apparent anatomical correct features "down there"), horse is very light and attentive to the rider, obviously the fellow is showing off a wee bit!
* - I like this one, double bridle (I think), left hand reining, weapons, armour, clear image.  If we need it
* - Baroque horses, big muscular butts, don't look like they are riding into battle (no weapons, no armour, riders and horses so misproportioned that it's impossible to really tell how tall those horses actually were (leg length of riders looks like a shetland pony, almost, but obviously they are horses--though no horse can have a butt that big AND flanks that tucked up!  These critters are like Barbie Dolls!  LOL!  Why do we need the Bayeux Tapestry, again...?
* - interesting in that all the horses are in direct pressure bits, also interesting to show barding and all sorts of weapon use, but probably too small detail for the article.
* --cool -- horse armour, curb bit, short but draft-build animal (note big feet) (if accurate design), much to like, but the horse probably useless for actual battle with barding so long
The caparison is not an issue if properly constructed. I know people who joust regularly with Rene of Anjou style caparisons that have no trouble at all. Jenn Reed
*  - A more cool image if we can find a place to use it.  Compare rider size to this (tall woman on Trakhner, horse probably about 16 hands, just guessing)
Any comparison is useless without actually knowing the standing height of both the armour and the female rider. Otherwise is pure speculation. Jenn Reed
* - interesting image of a guy getting spurs put on, how about tossing it into spur?  (Thanks in advance!)
* - I presume this is a blacksmith?  Not horsey enough for here. Well, it's a spurier, making spurs and stirrups - but the saddler is better
Actually, this is a loriner (Lormier), a maker of metal pieces associated with tack: bits, stirrups, occasionally spurs. (Jenn Reed)
* -- classic jointed mouthpiece curb or pelham (snaffle ring is pretty small to attach a rein, but it could be done.  Does this look familiar? 
* - Ah!  Saddle maker, or horse-collar maker, or something ("Sattler" = "Saddler"? )  Looks to be mostly horsey equipment, might work, better than the "Sporer" image, anyway.
More:  See also Commons Grands Chroniques de France category
Sättler(German) = Saddler. The image dates from the late 16th century  (Jenn Reed)
*  check riding styles!  Ah, the patriarch in la jineta, the rest la brida!  But WHY oh WHY did all these people seem to think it was OK to ride with their heels UP?  Horrible!  (And you see it over and over again.  I would be curious to know why -- when modern people put their heels up, it's considered bad equitation as it shortens the rider's leg and makes it difficult to use the calf muscles properly.  But I digress)
*  -- Oh fascinating!  The archer, is in a la jineta seat (he needs the flexibility to turn and shoot), and look at the knee rolls of his saddle -- very similar to a modern dressage saddle, particularly the styles that have just come out in the last few years.  Two other riders, the guy with the curved sword and the one standing up in his stirrups, also have jineta seats, up off their horses.  The other riders, in armour, riding la brida, braced legs, long stirrups.  Interesting.  Also the la brida riders appear to be the winners?  Anyway, this would be a dandy one to use in a section on riding styles.
It is an interesting image. One must look at the context of the image not just the riding style that it suggests. The rider is Eastern not Western European. Western Europeans (Northern) did not engage in horse archery, the long bow was the predominant form and is not handy on horse back, there are ordinances dating to the 15th century indicating that mounted archers dismounted and removed their spurs before engaging in archery on the battlefield. People tended to use crossbows on occasion from horseback. So it suggests that this rider is foreign and the Eastern peoples rode in the chair seat or Gineta or "shrunk leg"; la brida which I've come to think of more as the "bridle" hand or "neck reining style" is Western European. The knee roll is most likely the fork of the saddle tree. This saddle design is similar to a "hussari" saddle in the Kunsthistoriches museum. Jenn Reed
*  by Donatello, 1445 --  Those spurs!  On a modern horse, using those suckers would result in a rider taking a fast face plant!  However, the horse is real interesting.  Well-sculpted and correctly proportioned, for one thing!  (Sculptors tend to be better than painters in that respect) Compare to images in wiki of a modern Andalusian horse or Friesian horse.  Heavier than most modern versions, especially in the neck, yet not really like a Percheron or a Clydesdale, either.  Also compare to the somewhat lighter modern Lipizzan.  Note comparison to that 17 hand riding draft horse I sent you, or just compare the rider on the Andalusian in the wiki article...  Montanabw(talk) 04:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: Section removed from Horses in warfare. Placing here until I have time to consider merge.  Gwinva (talk) 23:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's the information we've tried to present in the article, backed up by various authorities. Thanks for your general comments throughout this page.  We've used this talk page to throw a few ideas around in preparation for improving this article further (hopefully to FA quality). If you are interested in developing it, then you are welcome to join in.  It's easier if you have a logged-in user name.  Gwinva (talk) 20:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Decline of Destrier 

message: The Medieval literature, including the Matter of France (or Carolingian cycle), the epics and Arthurian legend celebrated exceptional horses with their riders. The early works of medieval literature, however little value that animal, just like Veillantif, horse of Roland the paladin, which is much less emphasized, for example, than the sword Durandal. While many of the horses in song of Roland have a name, their role remains relatively deleted. In the novels of Chrétien de Troyes, the horse symbolizes the departure adventure Begoña Aguiriano in .
The troubadours widely mention the horse in their compositions, sometimes giving it a name and attributes (color, etc ...) specific </ ref>. In epics, the horse usually held on a providential role of animal<ref>Jean-Claude Vallecalle in , the image of Broiefort, stallion of Ogier Danemarche. In the gesture Huon of Bordeaux, horses continue the fight started by their master, and the stallion of the traitor Amauri is killed. The animal is to be humanized may lend copies of skilled behavior, such as suicide of the horse in memory of his master.
Some horses extraordinary texts which ascribe magical qualities and / or supernatural origin, reflect the importance of imagination in medieval times. The memory of the horse of mythology, which are usually white and shown bursting from the sea, although this is very blurred as is the case in the lai of Tydorel when a mysterious knight emerges from its maritime kingdom on the back of a white horse. Bayard is one of the most famous horses fabulous, but Broiefort also possesses magical gifts. The horse is thus one of the few animals that are both familiar beasts and legendary beasts. However, it is increasingly the case as an anchor in the real world, as opposed to the Other World in fairytale and wonderful because often, the knight who enters the Fairyland abandons his mount, or must walk at night through dense vegetation it would be a mistake to enter faerie with his horse, and also the Saints seem deny  to approach them with the horse, the animal is inseparable from worldly aspirations.
The horse is ubiquitous in the Arthurian legend. Gringolet, horse of sir Gawain whose qualities are equal to those of his master, is mentioned in several texts and in the prose Lancelot, the theme of the gift of the horse recurs frequently. In the Queste del Saint Grail, a knight riding a large black beast of the same color emerging from a river and kills the horse of Lancelot before fleeing.
The horse of the Roman de Fauvel (also presented as a donkey) has a satirical role, enabling a critique of the corruption of the Church and the political system in the fourteenth century.
Absent from the first bestiaries, which focus on unusual and fabulous animals indiscriminately, the horse is represented by 2.5% to 3% of Seals Medieval and Renaissance, usually mounted and very rarely naked.
=== Biblio ===
*Brigitte Prévot and Jordanus Rufus, La science du cheval au Moyen âge: le Traité d'hippiatrie, Klincksieck, Paris, 1991, volume 2 de Collection Sapience, http://books.google.com/books?id=22seAQAAIAAJ
*Brigitte Prévot and Bernard Ribémont, Le cheval en France au Moyen Age: sa place dans le monde médiéval ; sa médecine, l'exemple d'un traité vétérinaire du XIVe siècle, la Cirurgie des chevaux, Paradigme, Caen, 1994, volume 10 de Medievalia, isbn 9782868780720, http://books.google.com/books?id=22seAQAAIAAJ
*Collectif, Le Cheval dans le monde médiéval (=Horse in medieval world), Université de Provence, Aix-en-Provence, 1992, 586 p. isbn 9782901104322, see http://books.google.com/books?id=w6FZAAAAMAAJ
... It's working ? ;) First book is a medieval medical treatise from XVe but I haven't it. Only have the second one. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 06:55, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It will probably be a bit before any of us can do much work on this, but I'm glad we have the material!  Thanks so much!  Montanabw(talk) 00:50, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok ;) I've translated (Google translate have translated) another paragraph about horse in art and literature. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 07:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The vote for featured article is opened in french. I hope me translation is good, better than when I write in english ! And if you have any question, don't hesitate to ask to me ! --Tsaag Valren (talk) 19:40, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good luck with the FA run on fr.wiki, Tsaag!  Let us know how it goes!  Montanabw(talk) 02:36, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks ! I really love your work about horse, if you have some featured article to ask me to translate, I will be glad to write more about history of horse. And it's a good way for me to learn english. The Fa vote page is here : :fr:Discussion:Cheval au Moyen Âge/Article de qualité. Article need 8 vote and 90% FA votes to become FA.  --Tsaag Valren (talk) 22:52, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Featured articles in en.wiki are listed here: :Category:FA-Class_equine_articles  If you haven't checked Thoroughbred, we are especially proud of that one as a group project; it's our "flagship" breed article.  Horses in World War I is probably the best of the best, mostly the work of our outstanding Dana boomer!! Montanabw(talk) 02:53, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks ;) I've translated Thoroughbred in 2009, see : :fr:Pur Sang. I'll do my best for Horses in World War I => :fr:Cheval dans la Première Guerre mondiale (when in english you need 4 small words, in french you need 6 big words !). Our best article in "equestrian project" is probably this one, :fr:Cheval au Moyen Âge, but :fr:Ardennais (cheval) is another interesting FA. And if you've an interest in mytological horses too, :fr:Pégase_(mythologie) is one of the best articles I've ever see ;) --Tsaag Valren (talk) 21:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  In art and literature 

message: *Brigitte Prévot and Jordanus Rufus, La science du cheval au Moyen âge: le Traité d'hippiatrie, Klincksieck, Paris, 1991, volume 2 de Collection Sapience, http://books.google.com/books?id=22seAQAAIAAJ
*Brigitte Prévot and Bernard Ribémont, Le cheval en France au Moyen Age: sa place dans le monde médiéval ; sa médecine, l'exemple d'un traité vétérinaire du XIVe siècle, la Cirurgie des chevaux, Paradigme, Caen, 1994, volume 10 de Medievalia, isbn 9782868780720, http://books.google.com/books?id=22seAQAAIAAJ
*Collectif, Le Cheval dans le monde médiéval (=Horse in medieval world), Université de Provence, Aix-en-Provence, 1992, 586 p. isbn 9782901104322, see http://books.google.com/books?id=w6FZAAAAMAAJ
... It's working ? ;) First book is a medieval medical treatise from XVe but I haven't it. Only have the second one. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 06:55, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It will probably be a bit before any of us can do much work on this, but I'm glad we have the material!  Thanks so much!  Montanabw(talk) 00:50, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok ;) I've translated (Google translate have translated) another paragraph about horse in art and literature. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 07:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The vote for featured article is opened in french. I hope me translation is good, better than when I write in english ! And if you have any question, don't hesitate to ask to me ! --Tsaag Valren (talk) 19:40, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Good luck with the FA run on fr.wiki, Tsaag!  Let us know how it goes!  Montanabw(talk) 02:36, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks ! I really love your work about horse, if you have some featured article to ask me to translate, I will be glad to write more about history of horse. And it's a good way for me to learn english. The Fa vote page is here : :fr:Discussion:Cheval au Moyen Âge/Article de qualité. Article need 8 vote and 90% FA votes to become FA.  --Tsaag Valren (talk) 22:52, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Featured articles in en.wiki are listed here: :Category:FA-Class_equine_articles  If you haven't checked Thoroughbred, we are especially proud of that one as a group project; it's our "flagship" breed article.  Horses in World War I is probably the best of the best, mostly the work of our outstanding Dana boomer!! Montanabw(talk) 02:53, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks ;) I've translated Thoroughbred in 2009, see : :fr:Pur Sang. I'll do my best for Horses in World War I => :fr:Cheval dans la Première Guerre mondiale (when in english you need 4 small words, in french you need 6 big words !). Our best article in "equestrian project" is probably this one, :fr:Cheval au Moyen Âge, but :fr:Ardennais (cheval) is another interesting FA. And if you've an interest in mytological horses too, :fr:Pégase_(mythologie) is one of the best articles I've ever see ;) --Tsaag Valren (talk) 21:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biblio 

message: I think the following two heavy cavalry cases in antiquity should be mentioned in the article: [Companion_cavalry], [Cataphracts].A.Cython (talk) 06:09, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: However, this article is on the middle ages - while cataphracts might barely fit into this time frame, the companion cavalry of Alexander don't. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:20, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am aware of that... and when i say briefly i mean something like one or two sentences. For example, in the article it says:
This seems misleading since it says that heavy cavalry was not used in antiquity. Companion cavalry, cataphracts (which existed at Alexander's time and before that) are two examples of heavy cavalry in antiquity, contradicting with what the article says. Not to mention that Cataphacts do also fit in the middle ages according to the wiki article, unless 12th century is not considered middle ages.  Anyway that's my two cents.A.Cython (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mentioned? 

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