Talk:Musical notation

message: The history section of the article is almost completely Euro-centric. Can someone expand this section with research from India ( Sama Veda 1700 BC) and China?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Demystifiersf (talk • contribs) 19:13, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another Article with Eurocentric Bias? 

message: If anyone knows why a subscript b is used for flat notation it would be greatly appreciated. I think it's funny that a subscript b is used because "B" a whole step higher than "A". I'm sure there was some kind of logic to it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chevyfastback (talk • contribs) 05:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hint: in German they use the letter B to mean B flat, but H to mean B natural. In other countries, before the invention of accidental signs, they referred to "B rotundum" and "B quadratum" ("round" and "square"). A rounded B became the flat sign and a squared b became the natural sign. The sign isn't really subscripted; it just descends below the baseline, just like a lower-case "y". —Wahoofive (talk) 03:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason we use a "b" is because as western music developed notation, the scales used only needed one accidental. There was a limited number of diatonic scales in use (see modes), and at first the only accidental needed was for B (see also Hexachord), most often as an alteration to the Lydian mode (our article Neume has a good description of how the notation worked for Gregorian chant, which might give you the appropriate background here). It was not until much later that it became necessary to have accidentals for other notes, and for this they borrowed the "soft b" from existing notation. Similarly the natural is the "hard b", which eventually got its right line extended to create its current form, and for a long time the same symbol was used for sharps as well (as the natural, originally applied only to B, meant to raise the pitch a semitone from where it had been as a flat). Eventually when people began to need more precise notation, the sharp became distinguished from the natural. So the short story is that it is a B because we only needed flat Bs when we came up with the idea of flats. - Rainwarrior 04:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  subscript b as a flat notation 

message: Can I suggest a need for a section to list and describe common (Italian etc) words used in sheet music? Alternatively a link to where these might be on Wikipedia? Examples could be 'piano', 'crescendo' etc.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.125.226 (talk) 12:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: See List of musical terminology AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Words within music

message: With a multisyllabic word, dashes are put in between the syllables. Also, when multiple notes are sung over one syllable, an underscore is extended from the end of the syllable to the last note. I think the image should be corrected - it looks amateurish.
If you need a source, check "Music Notation - Preparing Scores and Parts" by Matthew Nicholl and Rich Grudzinski. Also, if you are thinking, "it's a lead sheet, not the score to an opera" or something along those lines, look at any vocal tune in the Real Book or the New Real Book - dashes and underscores without fail.
: You're right, it's rather a poor example. It's also not really a lead sheet, more a fragment of music in lead sheet style. I'll see if I can make a better version, unless someone beats me to it. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 21:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Lead Sheet" Image is Incorrect 

message: See the discussion at Talk:Accidental (music)#Inflections vs accidentals concerning the definition of "accidental" and its relation to sharp and flat signs and key signatures. Hyacinth (talk) 20:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Accidental (music)]]

message: Moved from article:
Is this notable or citable?--Dbolton (talk) 05:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intelligent notation 

message: This is in the "Further reading" section.
*Read, Gardner (1978). Modern Rhythmic Notation. Victor Gollance Ltd including Chopin's final special new year concert 1.1.1850
Chopin died in 1849, so this doesn't make any sense to me.
--Jtir (talk) 23:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a similar addition to :simple:Music that appears to be vandalism. --Jtir (talk) 19:52, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is "Chopin's final special new year concert 1.1.1850"? 

message: diff
From what I see on the remarks page of the JCS web site, it looks like a vehicle for the compositions of a single individual. Scarcity of google hits, a focus on computer minutiae on the main site page and a declaration on the remarks page that the intent of "phase two" is basically to take the project underground for an extended time, all lead me to doubt that this is notable encyclopedia material. Besides all that, the notation itself looks like something it would take serious dedication to read fluently, for what benefit? __Just plain Bill (talk) 13:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree it looks non-notable and verging on the spammy. The text was added again, and I've just reverted it. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

text: FWIW, there is a guideline on notability. --Jtir (talk) 22:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  JCS notation -- anyone heard of it, or using it? 

message: What about the notation used on games like Guitar Hero?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.252.62.154 (talk) 14:20, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: See the section on piano roll notation at Graphic notation (music).--dbolton (talk) 21:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Graphic notation

message: Juri, apparently you have not read the above notes.  Several other editors and I worked long, tedious hours on this article.  Finally, it was reviewed by an Adminstrator, and the reference to "Brushed with Blue" was kept. It does NOT presently link to another website, and cannot possibly be regarded as spam.  Again, you are seeing things through your own tunnel vision.  I shall therefore restore the information which you deleted, and which is most relevant to the article.
Juri, are you trying to get even for my objective edits on the Richard Kastle page?  Prof.rick 04:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that this link is not appropriate. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brushed with Blue 

message: The first two paragraphs don´t tell us anything about musical notation. I think they belong to another article. Should we replace them?--Knight1993 (talk) 23:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The first paragraph reads "Music notation or musical notation is any system that represents aurally perceived music, through the use of written symbols", and the second begins and ends "The earliest form of musical notation can be found in a cuneiform tablet that was created at Nippur, Iraq in about 2000 B.C. … Although they were fragmentary, these tablets represent the earliest recorded melodies found anywhere in the world". The first one tells us what music notation is (the accepted function of a lede paragraph), the second tells us of the earliest occurrence. In what way do these "not tell us anything about musical notation"?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, my apologies. I didn't notice your "headline" identifying your concern with the Arabic music section. Indeed, the first tow paragraphs say nothing at all of relevance to notational systems (at least, not the way the section is presently written). I would advise you to be bold and lop them out. If another editor can see a reason for restoring them, then let him or her provide the necessary connecting threads.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don´t worry, this things happen to me quite often. So, I think I´ll out them in the Arabic music article. Thanks--Knight1993 (talk) 03:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: One assumes you mean the Arabic music section of this article rather than the article Arabic music, and that the misuse of "out" as a verb in this context means "remove". In this case, I endorse your contemplated action.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

text: My Bad, I was trying to say "put", not "out".--Knight1993 (talk) 01:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your typo, I think, since O and P are neighboring keys on a QWERTY keyboard. And that sounds like a good place for the paragraphs: recycle, rather than discard!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arab world section 

message: Here is a link to a blog that is about   "Anything to do with animated notation, video notation, real-time notation and basically any kind of "active" musical notation. Links to audio and video examples, articles,papers and discussions, people and groups, tips and tools."    Animated and real-time musical notation meaning information for the performers of a composition; not an animation/visualisation of music/musical sound
http://animatednotation.blogspot.com/
Do you think there is a place for this anywhere?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.197.201.2 (talk) 17:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at the moment, since it doesn't appear to be authored by a notable expert in the field. Some of the work that blog links to, on the other hand, could be interesting. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:26, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Animated and real-time notation 

message: Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 01:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional citations

message: Possibly covered in a section I may have skipped. However, Synthesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesia) has a piano notation I believe need to be added to this page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nborders1972 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Synthesia 

message: I suggest that the short article on the apparently near-totally non-notable topic of Simplified music notation be merged here. The current sources in that article consist of a local newspaper article and a self-published free hand-out (see Worldcat). I'm aware that this article too is not without its problems; I don't think such a merge would add to them. An article on Alternative systems of Western musical notation might perhaps be one step towards resolving them? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:36, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: DIsagree on the concept of merging, although agnostic about the notability of the topic in question. Seems like a lot of the "Other systems and practices" are pretty obscure too, but if (if!) the topic is worthy of mention, there's no reason it shouldn't have its own article. And since this is an overview article, no reason to spin the whole "other systems" section off. Love that that article uses the word "whilst", though. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge discussion, [[Simplified music notation]] 

message: Came across an intriguing image of what is presented as a notation system from Egypt c. 400ce.
http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcvdngf2K61r5yt7ko1_1280.jpg
It is described in Theresa Sauer's book, Notations 21, Mark Batty Publisher, USA, 2009 on pages 290-291, as: a Coptic score that demonstrates Ptolemy's theory of Harmonia Mudi; the colored circles represent chromatic tones; their circumference indicates duration and rhythm; at the top is an inscription in Greek that means "spiritual harmony, or more literally "spiritual chord." I can't find a way to verify any of this. I emailed Sauer and asked her if she could tell me where this artifact is kept, etc., but have yet to receive a response. Does anyone know anything about this artifact?Jacques Bailhé (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancient Egyptian notation? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Musical notation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120524070949/http://www.olga.net/ to http://www.olga.net/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150701200951/http://www.emusician.com/ar/emusic_xml_music/ to http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_xml_music/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 05:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Musical notation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080609090628/http://www.britac.ac.uk/events/2004/abstracts/2004-bagley.htm to http://www.britac.ac.uk/events/2004/abstracts/2004-bagley.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070311024006/http://www.musicmarkup.info/ to http://www.musicmarkup.info/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:01, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: I think there should be, because we certainly could use a better description of this important aspect of music in the modern world. It would feel more balanced if there was less here and a great deal more in its own article. 
I just don't know what the title of this article would be. Feels like a stupid question, but I don't know the answer. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 19:56, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should there be a separate article on "Modern Staff Notation"? What do you call it? 

message: The article currently lacks an explanation of why what is entitled as 'modern staff notation" has Italian language-specific tempo indications (e.g. Andante, Allegro) and dynamic markings which are Italian language-specific abbreviations (e.g. f = forte, p = piano, mp = mezzo piano).
(I believe this is because Italians pioneered the first mass music notation printing as explained in the article "History of Music Printing": [The father of modern music printing was Ottaviano Petrucci, a printer and publisher who was able to secure a twenty-year monopoly on printed music in Venice during the 16th century.])
Although identified in separate article, this should be referenced within the staff notation explanation paragraphs.
:For a start, tempo indications are not a part of staff notation, but a supplement to it. Second, Italian-language markings are not the only ones used in music, even if they are more common in English-speaking areas than any other language. In France, French is the usual choice; in Germany and Austria, German is often used, especially after the middle of the 19th century. As far as Petrucci is concerned, tempo indications in his day were non-existent, unless you consider the tempo implications of the various mensuration signs used up until then. In any case, if he had used words, they would more likely have been Latin than Italian in the very early 16th century. The use of such verbal supplements, as well as dynamic markings, only comes into use in the 17th century, and it is almost certainly the Italian dominance of opera that spread the language across the rest of Europe. When the most famous singers in the opera houses, and the most famous virtuoso instrumentalists came from Italy, composers would be very foolish to write performance instructions in Polish, Russian, Swedish, or English. Beyond opera, most of the exciting new musical forms were developed in Italy (the concerto, the sonata, the oratorio). Italian was the international musical language throughout the 17th and 18th centuries so, naturally, musicians of other nations were well-advised to familiarize themselves with it. Also, many of the words that eventually became tempo indications were originally expression marks, with nuances easily comprehended by Italian speakers ("allegro", for example, does not mean "fast" but "merry"; "largo" means "broadly", and so on). The French were the first to resist, as part of the nationalist programme fostered by Louis XIV under the musical oversight of Jean-Baptiste Lully (ironically, an Italian immigrant to France), but by the early 19th century the influence of Italian musicians was on the wane, and Germans became increasingly prominent outside of the German-speaking territories. This story perhaps needs a dedicated section, and certainly should not be bound up with staff notation as such.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:46, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Italian words and abbreviations

message: It looks Slavic to me,  there are some ь, ч, ю and ъ there... א. א. אינסטלציה (talk) 17:00, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: From the image description: "Book of Hymns at the Lord's Resurrection (Romanian: "Anastasimatar bisericesc"), page #11, translated from Greek and printed in Romanian with Cyrillic characters by Macarie the Hieromonk in 1823 in Vienna. It depicts the Byzantine music notation style."—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:11, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  In the byzantine part