Talk:Jarmann M1884

message: It should be clarified as to what "438 m Enfilading" means. I know it says "(the path of the bullet would pass through a man-sized target)", but i'm not sure what the distance rating refers to. Fresheneesz 02:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also in that table, it mentions a "rate of fire" but no units. What does "8" rate of fire mean? Is that 8 shots per minute? Fresheneesz 02:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  enfilading 

message: The blurb on the Wikipedia main page says that the rifle used black powder cartridges, and that it turned the Norwegian army into one armed with weapons that used smokeless powder.  Smokeless powder is, of course, the modern replacement of black powder and the two are not the same.  The article itself explains this later on, but the front page (and probably the beginning of the article, which I have not yet read closely) could use some clarification.  I originally clicked through to make a correction to the article, but saw that the explanation is there - it could just use better placement. 68.230.214.218 03:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Front page clarification 

message: Jacob Smitch Jarmann designed his first rifle breech-loading rifle firing cardboard cartridges—in 1838,[ Unclear which is intended with the repeated reference to 'rifle' pmh 05:32, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  first rifle design or first breech loading rifle ? 

message: redundancy in text ? pmh 05:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  new = unique 

message: "This combat sight was graduated to 430 m (470 yd), since the path taken by the bullet did not rise over 1,80 meter (6 ft) at this distance." It is unclear why or how the conditional statement is related to the combat sight. pmh 05:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  combat sight 

message: "The combination of tubular magazine and centerfire ammunition has been referred to as too excitable, especially when used with pointed bullets." Unclear as to the meaning of 'too excitable'. Is there an 'excitable' quality in a rifle or its use that can be excessive? pmh 05:42, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed it does - the 'jolt' of firering could set off the cartridges in the magazine. The wording is taken from the website cited. WegianWarrior 19:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: As stated, the wording is verbatim from the source. I will assume however, that the possibility for 'excitment' is the reason why the service ammunition had flat heads instead of being pointed (which would have been better from a ballistic point of view). Flat heads will not be able to set off other cartridges in the magazine. WegianWarrior 22:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  excitable ? 

message: im quite happy with the table of factual data comparing the jarmann with other contemporary rifles but the paragraph at the top is in my mind clearly pov.  firstly - who considered it a good weapon?  secondly how can someone state its clearly an excellent weapon for its time? thats an opinion which someone has arrived at without evening showing any justification.  what criteria was used to make this judgement?  in what context was it an excellent weapon? close range or at a distance? What im trying to show here is that the paragraph is inherently flawed and unless an alternative is proposed should be removed.  WP:NPOVD contains the statement "An NPOV (neutral, unbiased) article is an article that has been written without showing a stand on the issue at hand." and to me the statement about the rilfe being excellent contradicts that. Tyhopho 14:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It says it was an excellent weapon that compares well with other excellent weapons.  Your quibble is at most a minor one about wording.  You are going overboard on the neutral point of view issue, misapplying it to something that doesn't really make any specific claims that need justification.  Gene Nygaard 14:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesnt say 'other excellent weapons'.  If I regard a paragraph as clearly POV im not going to think 'oh i shouldnt quibble over a change of word' - instead im going to correct it so that it is no longer POV.  Single words or brief statements can have a signficant affect on the tone of a piece, therefore i regard my edit as a valid one.  also rather than worry about justifying a weak statement take a simpler solution and remove it. Tyhopho 14:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First off, you're reported for violating WP:3RR. Secondly, What Gene Nygaard said - the table clearly shows that the Jarmann is equal to or better than the arms used by the major european powers at the time; arms that was generaly considered to be excellent (otherwise, they would not have been adopted by a major power). Logicaly it follows that it was, in fact, an excellent weapon for it's time. WegianWarrior 15:03, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Youre logic is flawed.  A top of the line Mercedes Benz could have better accelleration, handling etc then a cheap nissan micra but because the micra may have better fuel consumption i could argue that its a better car for its time due to the cost of fule.  that analogy will hopefully show why ive been objecting to the paragraph and not 'making stuff up' :-) Tyhopho 15:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: fair enough about the 3RR.  Yes there is data in the table which shows its superiority in some areas, but is that enough to make a final judgement call on whether its a better rifle compared to the others in the table? No I dont think so in the slightest. Tyhopho 15:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And where does it say that? The paragraph you keep deleting merely says the Jarmann M1884 was an excellent weapon for it's time, not that it was better than the others. Read what is there, and don't make stuff up that isn't in the text. WegianWarrior 15:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: since when am i making stuff up?  ive been going on what was stated in that paragraph - nothing more or less.Tyhopho 15:32, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then show me where the paragraph you kept deleting said that the Jramann M1884 was _better_ than the other rifles in the table. All it says it that it is an excellent weapon, without making a judgement weither it is better or worse than the other rifles listed. WegianWarrior 16:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Read my original post in this section.  I have no interest in repeating myself unnecessarily. Tyhopho 16:03, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: One would assume that published (and objective) facts and figures support the statement, which means that it cannot by definition be POV, nor is it original research, as someone else published the specs, which a cursory glance can compare.  The problem, however, is that examining the statement in-depth is outside the scope of the article, and that's not a POV issue either. MSJapan 17:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Original research was not something I was objecting to - and I have no problem with the stats within the table.  However the content of the paragraph I thought was arriving at a conclusion based on a personal reading of the facts something which I thought this encyclopedia didnt accept (obviously Im wrong).  Why would examining the statement be beyond the scope of the article? if its in the article it should be examined. Tyhopho 17:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to put an end to this, I did go to the primary source (Hanevik, Karl Egil (1998). Norske Militærgeværer etter 1867, Chapter 3 (page 58), Hanevik Våpen. ) and lo! Indeed the source does describe the M1884 as an excellent weapon for it's time compared to the service rifles of the major powers: På backgrunn av oversikten må Jarmanngæveret både ha vært ganske presist, hatt lang rekkevidde og ikke minst ha hatt en relativt god raserende virkning (fullt bestrykende over ca 438 m) for sin tid (roughtly translated: The Jarmann rifle had an excellent accuacy, range and enfilading effect for its time). WegianWarrior 19:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: excellent :) then a positive result was achieved! Tyhopho 20:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  reverts over comparison with contemporary rifles 

message: I edited the following sentences:
It is reported that the Germans melted down the last remaining Jarmann rifles in military warehouses during the Nazi occupation, since they were "too obsolete to be of interest, too modern to have lying around". It is quite possible that as many as 21,000 Jarmanns were destroyed in this fashion.
The reason is: there is the quote "Too obsolete to be of interest...". This makes it appear like this is a statement by some Nazi-officer or -source, when in fact it a quote from a random person who once had a website, which is source 1. I quote the entire paragraph from the website
 Rumours say that 20 000 were sold to South America, but the ship sank. I doubt this. I’ve seen pictures of German soldiers pouring kerosene on a 50 m long and 2 m tall pile of Jarmanns. That picture alone must have shown some 10 000 rifles burned by the Germans – too obsolete to be of interest, too modern to have lying around. 
https://web.archive.org/web/20060214113113/http://geocities.com/trondwikborg/jarmann.html
So an archived geocities-website by a random person is treated as a legitimate source, even though the entire text is absolutely nonsensical. I want to counter this with something closer to the truth to make my case plausible:
The Germans called all ferrous metals "Sparstoffe", meaning "sparse materials". They had realized by 1937 already that in a case of a war they would run short on ferrous metal. Particularily important here is brass. By 1940 a bulk of the cartidges for Mauser K98k-rifles were steel case ammunition. Experimentation with steel case ammunition for machine guns was undertaken, and by 1943 they had developed a kind of wax-varnish that made it possible to shoot steel case ammunition reliably from machine guns. They also ran short on lead, so they during the war they developed various bullets without lead, copper and zink. The MP44 was supposed to shoot bullets entirely free of "sparstoffe", the most successful were so-called "Sintereisen-Geschosse", basically just sintered iron with a wax coating.
My source: Waffen-Revue Nr.47, undoubtably credible.
So what does that indicate for the Jarmann? First: nobody seems to know what exactly happened to them, but what happened to them was the most likely thing - more on that later. 
But here is how the German "Jarmann"-policy would have looked like: The Norwegians probably still had millions of rounds for this rifle. These would have been exploited for their brass cases, their bullets and the black powder, which could have been used as propellants or explosives. Next you were left with obsolete rifles that didn't not even have ammunition. So their were useless, and reserving a storage facility for them would have been a waste. Without care they would have rusted and molded away anyway. 
So what most likely happened with the Jarmann-rifle is what happens to all military firearms once they are considered superfluous: they were scrapped in a professional way, just as the majority of all G3-battle rifles, M1 Garants, M1 Carbine or FN FALs were just scrapped once they were superfluous.  
The website's author's story is totally unbelievable.
Quote:  "I’ve seen pictures of German soldiers pouring kerosene on a 50 m long and 2 m tall pile of Jarmanns. That picture alone must have shown some 10 000 rifles burned by the Germans"
First of all: where are these pictures? 
But second and most importantly of all: if you burn a rifle, it doesn't evaporate. They would have been left with tons of burned, laminated wood and especially iron and steel. Superfluous firearms don't just get burned, they get scrapped. 
I am very interested in firearms history, and because of that I have a lot of experience with firearms-ethusiasts websites, forums and books. For some reason, firearms enthusiasts tend to make up just-so-stories, spread sensationalistic myths, probably derived from propaganda and hear-say, and in general most of what is published in this sector has to be taken with a grain of salt. 
The paragraph I quoted which Wikipedia has treated as a "source" for years is clearly complete nonsense, very typical for "gun-nuts". 
So please leave that out, it is not a serious source and it is nonsense. These were obsolete superfuous rifles and they probably went the same way that all superfuous rifles went. 91.49.25.91 (talk) 21:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted nonsenical section