Talk:Andrew Wilson (academic)

message: This article was originally speedied under ASD7, nn bio. But the version that was speedied was this one, which you'll note has absolutely nothing to do with the actual/original article; thus I've undeleted it. --maru   (talk)  contribs 19:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undeletion 

message: The blockquote in the article is referenced to Wilson's sermon entitled, "Parentism and World Peace", but the link provided leads to a page telling the user to "Please type your ID." However, searching on the Website I found a link to the sermon here, but the passage quoted in the article is not to be found in that text. Perhaps the quote is from a different sermon? Does anyone know which one? MishaPan (talk) 19:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the quotation here:
From a Jewish background himself, Dr. Wilson comments on the accusation that the Unification Church blames Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus:
Jesus understood that the reason why Jews were ignorant of him was not due to any fault of their own, but because certain leaders, like John the Baptist, had misled their people. Jesus also understood that the people who crucified him were not the leading rabbis of his day, but rather leaders of questionable worth, people like Caiaphas who were simply Roman puppets. These leaders held high office, but they didn’t at all represent the religious spirit of mainstream Judaism.Wilson, A. (2003). "Parentism and World Peace." Sermon given January 19.
 (link not working at the moment)
Perhaps this would be appropriate for Unification Church and anti-Semitism, but here it seems merely to be a coatrack. -Exucmember (talk) 23:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Source for blockquote

message: To new editor Shunam:
1. Sources must be reliable (not a forum entry).
2. In World Scripture, Wilson wrote an introduction to the volume, to each of 5 parts, to each of 21 chapters, and to each of about a half-dozen or so sections within each chapter. Taken together, this is of book length, and is all original work.
3. Many academic books have been printed by Edwin Mellon Press. It is not a valuable addition to an encyclopedia article to complain about the publisher unless this was thought to be significant in a published reliable source; even then it would be highly debatable. -Exucmember (talk) 06:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced sniping

message: Apology accepted.  Re World Scriptures, the introduction and sections represent editorial type work, not original scholarship.  Any competent academic recognizes what qualifies as original scholarship, and what is a useful compilation of primary sources with editorial classification and annotations.  Regarding the reputation of Edwin Mellon, that is a given within the academic community and so it does not matter if you tolerate reference to this in the article or not. I do not think there is much to debate here.Shunam (talk) 23:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Response

message: This topic has already been addressed, without consensus, by RS/N: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_5#Publisher.27s_.22blurb.22_quotes_and_Bat_Ye.27or.  Absent specific allegations that the booksellers in question are fabricating quotes, I am removing the reliability tags. Jclemens (talk) 19:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes from publishers/bookstores

message: A Google search for  Antonio-Silvestri "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" only turns up hits on this quote in related sites.
Jclemens reverted the tag on this quote with "google ("Antonio Silvestri" vatican) and you'll see multiple pages in italian." However, other than the above hits, this appears to just turn up coincidental juxtaposition of mention of an "Antonio Silvestri" (generally as part of a link to a Youtube video featuring a musician of that name) and the vatican on the same page. I am therefore removing this quote until it can be verified.
My final message to Jclemens is this:
Cite sources not search engines!
WP:RS's title is not "Reliable Search-engines." HrafnTalkStalk 04:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does "Monsignor Antonio Silvestri, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, The Vatican" exist?

message: The footnote "The online version of World Scripture is frequently referenced by collegiate (see, e.g., Southwestern University, Howard University, Austin Community College, among others) and independent websites." was originally used to synthesise "a major work in the field of comparative religion".
When I tagged it, the same footnote miraculously reappeared to substantiate the utterly trivial point that "The complete text of the printed book is available" online. Given that a link to an online copy is already prominently displayed in the ELs, this point does not need to be made in the article body at all, let alone provided with two sources.
This is not good faith editing, it is WP:COATRACKing sources that do not amount (individually or collectively) to "significant coverage" for the sole purpose of attempting to bolster a superficial impression of notability. HrafnTalkStalk 06:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit warring to remove evidence of notability is hardly good faith editing, either. Jclemens (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I've replied in the AfD.  Certain editors do not share your opinion that the book's notability is established, hence the disproportionate size of that portion of the article. If the article doesn't have the material, it's accused of being non-notable.  If it does, it's accused of being a coatrack.  If we want to split out World Scripture into its own article after this AfD is closed, I'm fine with that.  For now, let's leave it in, please? Jclemens (talk) 17:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

text: If the notability of the book is in doubt then the text I removed, such as the quotes from the book's foreword, won't help (forewords are not known for their neutrality). If you have things that don't belong in the article but help to establish it's notability I suggest adding them to the talk page. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You not only removed the forward, but also the dust jacked quotes--from non-UC affiliated professionals, evidence of university libraries linking to the online version, professional citations of the work, and reviews published in reliable sources.  Jclemens (talk) 20:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

text: So rephrase it--"linked to by university library websites" would be a longer, but more accurate way to put it.  I don't want to be accused of "coatracking" the point again, though--is it OK to expand the point by net three words to increase accuracy?  If so... be my guest to be as WP:BOLD at fixing it as you are at deleting material you requested of me. Jclemens (talk) 05:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: More accurate, but also thoroughly un-noteworthy. What other academics' articles need to pad their thin material with such trivia? The problem is that you simply want to shoehorn this footnote into the article, when it doesn't actually legitimately substantiate any point of any substance. So this leaves you caught between WP:SYNTH & WP:NOT. HrafnTalkStalk 09:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia to [[WP:COATRACK]] sources to present the topic as more notable than it is. 

message: In its third incarnation Jclemens' footnote now has been applied to the statement "The book is used by universities" -- another blatant piece of WP:SYNTH. HrafnTalkStalk 04:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So rephrase it--"linked to by university library websites" would be a longer, but more accurate way to put it.  I don't want to be accused of "coatracking" the point again, though--is it OK to expand the point by net three words to increase accuracy?  If so... be my guest to be as WP:BOLD at fixing it as you are at deleting material you requested of me. Jclemens (talk) 05:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: More accurate, but also thoroughly un-noteworthy. What other academics' articles need to pad their thin material with such trivia? The problem is that you simply want to shoehorn this footnote into the article, when it doesn't actually legitimately substantiate any point of any substance. So this leaves you caught between WP:SYNTH & WP:NOT. HrafnTalkStalk 09:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Jclemens' magical footnote sighted again

message: In a recent edit summary, Exucmember states "trying to accommodate Hrafn's criticism of "used by universities" even though he didn't suggest an alternative".
As I already stated above in my response to Jclemens, the only use for this wandering footnote is to make either:
#a WP:SYNTH exaggeration (as has been done twice) or
#a completely trivial point (as now has also been done twice).
There is no alternative that has a legitimate place in an encyclopaedic article. These marginal sources quite simply do not verify any substantive point. Which is why I think it absurd that you and Jclemens are so desperate to find something to say that you can source to it. It is highly indicative of the slim pickings, in terms of source material, that this topic suffers from -- a paucity that WP:NOTE is, in part, there to prevent (by ensuring that only articles with less skeletal sourcing survive). HrafnTalkStalk 18:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Response to Exucmember

message: Hrafn has made at least one requestfor improvement in this article, which caused me to add material in response.  He then later 
removed the exact content he requested. Jclemens (talk) 21:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questionable edits 

message: Exucmember and Jclemens agree that the seminary's importance and accreditation status is worthwhile for inclusion in the article, since it speaks to the man's professional accomplishments; it distinguishes his post from similar posts at a plethora of non-accredited seminaries that exist in less established religious movements.  Hrafn disagrees.  Until consensus changes, it stays in. Jclemens (talk) 16:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then I would suggest merging this article with Unification Theological Seminary as the majority of the lead is about the UTS and not Wilson. This is pure WP:COATRACK. HrafnTalkStalk 17:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I'm calling your bluff. Change your vote from delete to merge on the AfD page. Jclemens (talk) 20:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What bluff? "Delete" is still my preferred position, with merge a fallback. The fact remains that this is an appallingly badly written lead. HrafnTalkStalk 04:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Bluff called.  The only "merge" on the AfD page, as of the time I'm writing this response, isn't yours.  You've let another opportunity to demonstrate good faith, by posting on the AfD page what you stated above, slip by.  Out of curiosity... why? Jclemens (talk) 06:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Two things should be accomplished in mentioning the seminary. [1] That it is the main seminary worldwide, not just in the U.S. (as some readers may assume because the church originated in Korea and is much larger in Japan and Korea). At present this requires one extra word. [2] As Jclemens mentioned, the reader should know that this school is more substantial than an unaccredited seminary or diploma mill, especially in light of the Unification Church's reputation as a bizarre cult. At present this requires five extra words including "a". Calling this WP:COATRACK is simply untenable. -Exucmember (talk) 06:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No. This article is NOT about the seminary, it is about Wilson. Therefore that the lead says more about the seminary than it does about Wilson can only mean one of two things: (i) that Wilson has no notability independent of the seminary, and should be merged with that article (per my only-half-in-jest recommendation above) or (ii) that the lead has been grossly miswritten. HrafnTalkStalk 09:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seminary reference 

message: Now that we've at least semi-established Wilson's external notability through independent reliable sources, it is probably time to flesh out the biographical and professional material through UC-affiliated sources.  To date, here's the number of hits I'm finding in Google using the search string ("andrew wilson" site:x.y) where x.y:
:uts.edu 420
:tparents.org 392
:unification-thought.org 4
:unification.net 25
What other sources from within the UC would be good to look for?  Are there any anti-UC POV sources which will help provide a counterpoint view of Wilson? Exucmember, do you know? Jclemens (talk) 21:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-independent, POV sources

message: #Removal during an AfD presumes that the closing admins are incapable of differentiating between legitimate and illegitimate material.  Thus, if it's left in and trash, no harm no foul, since the article will be deleted in short order in any event.
#Arguments that inclusion is attempting to WP:GAME the AfD are inherently flawed.  One CANNOT be guilty of gaming an AfD by adding valid material; adding material designed to improve an article is the expected and proper channel for editors arguing that an article should be kept.
#Arguments that it is "spam" are spurious.  WP:SPAM speaks to people who are trying to sell stuff using Wikipedia.  In fact, the full version of the article quite prominently links to the online (free) version, while the shorter version does not.
#Arguments that it constitutes a WP:COATRACK are spurious.  The editors supporting inclusion contend that the material supports the WP:ACADEMIC criteria by demonstrating that World Scripture is a major work in its field.
#At least one editor who has removed the material had tagged the article previously requesting part of it be added--See Questionable edits above.  This same editor has expressed what I have interepreted as biased, anti-UC sentiments in the AfD.
#Multiple editors arguing for deletion have expressed incompatible requests for correction--if the material is left in the article, it is criticized as too long and unweildy.  If it is moved into footnotes, it is criticized as "promotional material masquerading as references."
For all these reasons, I argue that the long version of the article is the one which should be considered by the closing admin. Jclemens (talk) 20:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any)"  See Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators.  So yes, admins are indeed supposed to look at the notability of sources, among other factors. Forgive me for relying on the policies and guidelines rather than your interpretations. Jclemens (talk) 07:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are not "relying on the policies and guidelines" but upon your own "interpretations". The guideline in question explicitly discussed "determining a 'rough consensus'" (which is exactly what I was talking about) and says nothing whatsoever about making an independent determination on the "notability of sources". HrafnTalkStalk 08:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Concise list of arguments for the longer/complete version

message: #This is a bad faith repetition of a spurious argument already demolished on the AfD: "No. What I am saying is that commenting editors will generally not track down every citation, so will tend to voice an opinion on the number of citations, and thus might be misled by the insertion of a large number of spurious or tangential citations. The closing admins role is to determine what the consensus of the discussion was, not to impose their own opinion on notability. HrafnTalkStalk 19:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any)"  See Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators.  So yes, admins are indeed supposed to look at the notability of sources, among other factors. Forgive me for relying on the policies and guidelines rather than your interpretations. Jclemens (talk) 07:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are not "relying on the policies and guidelines" but upon your own "interpretations". The guideline in question explicitly discussed "determining a 'rough consensus'" (which is exactly what I was talking about) and says nothing whatsoever about making an independent determination on the "notability of sources". HrafnTalkStalk 08:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad faith accusations by Jclemens

message: One of the footnotes starts off by stating "World Scripture was reviewed favorably in Booklist" -- but does not actually say anything specific about this book, merely the reviewers' general comments about a list of "12 volumes" that happened to include it. If the reviewers in question cannot be bothered reviewing this book in detail, why are we bothering to include this group pseudoreview? Incidentally, I could not find this 'review' on the online version of Booklist. HrafnTalkStalk 09:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Lester Kurtz is a full professor who lists Gandhi first among his research interests. Ninian Smart is a Gifford Lecturer! Their comments and actions in response to this book are significant, are representative of their relevant academic spheres, and are indicative the book's notability and thus Wilson's. Repeated attempts to remove the references (or now to demean them) are not appropriate. I have refrained from complaining for days, but I have to say that in more than two years of editing on Wikipedia Hrafn is by far the most contentious editor that I have ever encountered (ten times more than anyone else). -Exucmember (talk) 15:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Just because it's an offbeat publication doesn't mean it doesn't meet the criteria for an RS.  Looking at the purposes of the society, I would expect it to be more able to review a comparative religion text than, say, Nature.  Of course, I wouldn't look to them for medical advice.  Would you do the honors an open an RS/N question on it? Jclemens (talk) 21:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Done: WP:RS/N#Is Journal of Religion & Psychical Research a RS on comparative religion HrafnTalkStalk 06:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Kindly wait for more people to weigh in before assuming that one deletion advocate plus one other editor equals a global consensus.  I'm expecting to find a lasting resolution, rather than a temporary advantage for one side or the other. Jclemens (talk) 05:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for that personal attack on Crusio. Can we likewsie refer to you as a "trivial cruft advocate"? We have two opinions on RS/N, both unequivocally against the reliability of this source. That is certainly enough for its interim removal. HrafnTalkStalk 06:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Crusio, my personal apologies if you were offended by my calling you a "deletion advocate".  It was not my intent to be offensive, merely to summarize the positions of those who had weighed in, and point out that no rebuttal had been posted. Jclemens (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I disagree that it's useless.  It is a generic endorsement of several volumes by librarians, rather than comparative religion specialists.  At the very least, it shows notability for the source by a favorable reference--no matter how generic--by the wider academic community.  Note specific part of the quote that it was suitable for academic collections.  If you want to trim the quote down to that bit, I'd be OK with it.  I don't want to give it undue weight, but it does say something meaningful about the book's reception in greater academia. Jclemens (talk) 21:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Mere favourable mention does not establish notability (plus there would be hundreds of thousands of non-notable texts that are "suitable for academic collections"). Please read WP:BK#Criteria for what does. HrafnTalkStalk 06:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Read.  "The book has been the subject [1] of multiple, non-trivial[2] published works whose sources are independent of the book itself,[3] with at least some of these works serving a general audience."  Looking at the definition of [2], there's no question that the Booklist review counts as a source under criterion 1.  Of course, the "general audience" criteria would presumably exclude the JSTS reference--I think we're agreed it's not a work serving a general audience. Jclemens (talk) 05:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "non-trivial" -- and you have presented us nothing but trivial mentions. Comments about a list of "12 volumes" that includes this book -- trivial. Mention of an online version of it in an article  -- trivial. Inclusion in a few (very long) lists of resources by libraries  -- trivial. HrafnTalkStalk 06:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree about the triviality, else I wouldn't have placed and advocated retaining those references.  It's pretty clear we don't see eye to eye on this.  How do you propose we constructively move forward? Jclemens (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Given your repeated introduction of blatant synthesis, inability to tell the difference between 'creating' an organisation's website and 'founding' the web-creation company that did so and 'creationg'/'founding' the organisation itself, and a mile of other errors, you will perhaps forgive me if I do not value your judgement, and thus your disagreement and advocacy too highly. The only legitimate way forward is to remove all the trivia (per WP:NOT) synthesis (per WP:OR) and unverifiable claims (WP:V). Given you have repeatedly opposed all such efforts, I do not see that you are making any constructive contribution to this article. HrafnTalkStalk 07:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry you don't like my contributions, although I disagree with your assessment of them. Please, show me up me by demonstrating better additions to the article than I have made. I'm simply trying to improve the article, not advocate for or against the UTS or Wilson. Jclemens (talk) 15:41, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudoreview 'bait and switch' 

message: One of the suggestions of the AfD closing admin is that the article be renamed from Andrew Wilson (theologian) to World Scripture.  Based on the difficulty gaining good BIO data on Wilson--e.g., none of us have even been able to establish (let alone reliably) his date of birth--I'm not opposed to that topic--provided we can keep what bio data on Wilson we DO have in an "about the author" section.  Can we get a !vote--rename, keep as named, or neutral.  I'll start off by voting Neutral. Jclemens (talk) 05:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: As this article is currently (mis)written, it should be renamed "Trivial praise of a book that Andrew Wilson wrote". It contains absolutely NOTHING substantive. I do not see any indication that an encyclopedic article is achievable, under any title. My vote is therefore "neutral" (as "delete this steaming pile of faeces" is off the table until the next AfD). HrafnTalkStalk 06:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your opinion.  Since you're committed to the deletion of this article rather than its improvement, would you be willing to walk away from it for a while and let those of us who are working on it refine it?  You may return in, say, a month, and be pleasantly surprised.  If you don't feel like doing that, I'd really appreciate either a more collaborative and less confrontational tone, or that you take the recent AfD Keep decision to WP:DRV.  Deletion Review is a valid process for deletion decisions that editors believe to have been made improperly, whatever the outcome, and is certainly open to you. Jclemens (talk) 18:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename to book? 

message: The amount of promotion for this book in the article is ridiculous and must be cut back. Quoting publishers promotional literature is absurdly non-neutral and amounts to promotion, which will get you banned from Wikipedia if done frequently. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How about we delete the dust jacket quotes and summarize them with the names and positions of the reviewers?  My contention is that the primary notability support these provide is the diversity of religious traditions endorsing the article.  I'd rather bring back the Catholic Monsignor in the process, if you're agreeable to that. Jclemens (talk) 18:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I'm sorry, but you appear to be working under the assumption that the notability of Andrew Wilson is still in question, and that these quotes support it.  Per my reading of the AfD closing admin's notes, I was wrong on the second point.  Keeper76 pointed out that they needed to be cleaned up: "Mr. Wilson's credentials, (Harvard), his academic position (academic dean of a prominent (within its field) seminary), his writing of a widely (again, within his field) book, the availability of reviews for said book, all add up to notability of subject. I agree in part with those advocating deletion that this biography is skewed towards being too coatrack-y, however, and want to urge all editors to not let the focus of the article be simply the book he wrote. The article definitely needs more citations specifically that talk (independently and reliably) about Mr. Wilson instead of "Mr. Wilson wrote a notable book"."  Thus, our marching orders are to improve the article by adding biographical information about Wilson himself.  I have not contested the removal of the dust jacket contents and other such non-review endorsements, but believe they should be referenced in footnotes. Not for notability, but to document the book's reception. Jclemens (talk) 19:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Dust jacket notes are not even relevant to indicate the book's reception. This may come as something of a shock to you, but publishers are often selective in what they put on dust jackets; they also do deals with authors along the lines of "you write something nice about this author's book and I'll get him to write something nice about yours". Dust jacket quotes are not relevant to anything. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Surely this ground must have been covered elsewhere on Wikipedia previously.  The one RS/N discussion about it that I found was far from as unequivocal as the position you just stated.  I've looked for a blanked condemnation of them, but haven't found one.  Do you have a better cite to a policy or discussion where wikipedia consensus was reached that supports your conclusion?  Find it for me and I'll be happy to abandon them, since, as established above, the book was deemed sufficiently notable without them. Jclemens (talk) 01:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Puffery

message: I'm sorry but you raised the issue of notability -- by stating "My contention is that the primary notability support these provide"'. If you did not want these dustcover endorsements discussed in the context of notability then you should not have said "My contention is that the primary notability support these provide"'. As you did say it, you can hardly throw a wobbly when these endorsements are discussed in the context of how they "support notability".
As to the closing admin's comments:
#"Mr. Wilson's credentials, (Harvard)" -- adds little to notability -- while a prominent institution, thousands attend it who do not go on to achieve any prominence
#"his academic position (academic dean of a prominent (within its field) seminary)" -- being a big fish in a small pond does not add much notability. I am amused that this 'foremost' 'Unification theologian' is not mentioned even once in Unification theology -- shows his impact in his field.
#"his writing of a widely (again, within his field) book, the availability of reviews for said book" -- as I have just been demonstrating, here & on WP:RS/N, there are no reviews on this book specifically, that are (i) RS, (ii) independent of the book itself. I am amused that he could not find a verb to go with the adverb "widely" -- widely what? It would seem he had difficulty thinking what it was "widely...".
I did not agree with his closing explanation, but did not see the difference between a weakly-justified 'keep' & a 'no consensus so keep' worth raising a 'Deletion Review' over. HrafnTalkStalk 05:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "My contention is that the primary notability support these provide..." [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]]

message: I have yet to see any indication that Wilson has made a substantive contribution to Jewish-Christian reconciliation. Here it mentions that he has participated in the UC's Middle East Peace Initiative (MEPI), a largely symbolic/nominal initiative by the UC that seems to involve mostly UC ceremonies/marches/'declarations' with no official Jewish/(non-UC) Chrsitian/Muslim participation, and no apparent impact (either on the ground or even in third party press). "Has participated in the Unification Church's Middle East Peace Initiative" is about the most that can be said about it, without breaching WP:V (and making a complete mockery of WP:UNDUE). HrafnTalkStalk 07:59, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at his writings, it seems to be a serious concern of his.  That should be the test for WP:UNDUE--not whether he's been effective, but whether that's a substantial area of his interest.  This article USED to be Andrew Wilson (scholar), but is not called that presently, so the scope and breadth of his religious thought is more important than his actual effectiveness as a peacemaker.  The effectiveness of MEPI would be a great topic to cover in its own Wikipedia article--I don't think we should coatrack it here. Jclemens (talk) 15:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Then state that it is a serious concern of his, using his own words where possible (to avoid WP:SYNTH). But do not state that he is actually doing something about it without verifiable facts to back it up. This was my point on MEPI -- none of its 'reconciliation' activities are verifiable. It is little more than a press release & a website. HrafnTalkStalk 16:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at that sentence again and see if the additional references have improved it.  From my reading of his writings, it seems to imply that Wilson himself was originally Jewish, but I can't find that documented.  I'm not attached to the word "focus", and am quite open to a rephrasing that accurately characterizes the proportion of his writings (see the additions to that footnote) as "emphasizing" or "desiring" or "explaining the theological need for" Jewish-Christian reconciliation.  I agree that I have not seen anything, especially independent sources, which describe his work in that area as productive or successful. Jclemens (talk) 20:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Hi, Ed, and thanks for adding the picture! Jclemens (talk) 23:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

text: He was moved (over two years ago) because at the time "Nothing in the article indicate[d] he is known for anything else" (other than as a theologian). Whether he is a "notable theologian" is a question that has been tap-danced around, but then again no solid evidence has been provided that he is "notable" for anything else, and the claim that he is notable for having written a notable book is looking increasingly flimsy due to the fact that no WP:RS & non-trivial (i.e. that give the book specific treatment, rather than dealing with it as a package of books/websites) review of it has been unearthed to date. Your accusation that this ancient change was in some way "gaming the system and WP:POINT" is gross violation of WP:AGF -- as well as absolutely absurd (both due to the time lapse, and the fact that the moving editor took no part in the AfD). As to 'improving' the article, there is simply "a lack of reliable, independent sources on the subject" (per WP:ACADEMIC), making it largely unimprovable, which is why it is wallowing in trivia. The only viable 'improvement' is to minimise this trivia. HrafnTalkStalk 04:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: ... or to add more sources.  Hrafn, can you take a look at the book reviews cited under "Book Reviews of World Scripture" above, and let me know which ones, if any, you believe would be non-independent and/or non-reliable?  Thanks. Jclemens (talk) 04:46, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish-Christian reconciliation 

message: The Harvard Crimson cite is relevant to establishing the date of his MTS.  His resume lists an MTS, which is only granted by Harvard Divinity School, and the Ph.D. is not.  The Crimson says... "Wilson, who graduated from the Divinity School last spring,"--that can only be his MTS, since the Divinity School neither offers undergraduate degrees nor doctorates of philosophy.  I explained this in the reference, but removed the explanation when Hrafn tagged it as "improper synthesis." A timeline of BA '71, MTS '80, and Ph.D. '85 is consistent with all the sources, but no sources I've found to date reliably establish the dating of the last two.  "last spring" in a 10-80 article and the publication of his Ph.D. thesis in 1985 are as close as I've been able to come so far. Jclemens (talk) 15:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:SYNTH: neither source states that he "obtained an M.T.S from Harvard Divinity School (in 1979 or '80)". Therefore this is not permissible. HrafnTalkStalk 16:49, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:SYNTH prohibits synthesis "which advances a position"  To the extent that trying to establish dates is actually advancing a position, you might be correct.  Since I do not believe that it does, I am removing your tag.  If you'd like to seek a 3rd opinion on this matter, feel free to do so, and I will abide by the results. Jclemens (talk) 19:57, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, scratch that.  Turns out from a copy of Wilson's CV that the Crimson got the dates wrong anyways, so I'm not going to argue a point on principle that arrives at a false answer. Jclemens (talk) 05:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes 

message: "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and only if:
#the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject being discussed; 
#it is not contentious; 
#it is not unduly self-serving; 
#it does not involve claims about third parties; 
#it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 
#there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it; 
#the article is not based primarily on such sources. "
So, assuming for the sake of argument that JRPR and Schuman's org are questionable, they still have a valid place here:
#Yes, the material (book review and endorsement) is relevant to the notability of the subject (Andrew Wilson and/or World Scripture) in that it demonstrates the breadth of non-UC reception.  Even if these reviews were negative, they would serve this purpose.
#Nothing about either is contentious.  Both are favorable book reviews.
#Nothing about either is self-serving.  Neither Clark or Schuman gains any foreseeable benefit from praising Wilson's World Scripture.
#No claims are made about third parties.  Clark writes what Clark thinks, Schuman writes about what Schuman thinks.
#It does not involve claims about any events whatsoever.  The closest they come are that 1) Wilson wrote a book, 2) Schuman or Clark, respectively, read it.
#No reasonable doubt exists that Schuman controls the Origin.org website.  Clark is a repeat contributor to JRPR, so there's no reasonable doubt that she is known to the editors.
#This article is not based on such sources.  In fact, all they are is footnotes documenting reception.
Before I remove the "unreliable source" tags, can anyone refute this logic? Since this is from WP:V, WP:RS can only be an interpretation of it, and cannot be used to trump it. Jclemens (talk) 22:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Schuman is being used about what Schuman said, Clark in JSTS is being used about what Clark said.  Neither are referring to third parties--unless you count the book as a third party. Neither is being used as a source about what Wilson said or did, nor would I propose such, because then your logic would apply. Jclemens (talk) 05:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This, thoroughly tendentious, interpretation would completely gut the "about themselves" part of that policy. The statements are "about" the book. They are about a third party's book. This is nothing short of an end-run around the consensus on RS/N. HrafnTalkStalk 06:21, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The consensus, and you'll note that I market the issue closed, is that these are questionable sources, and must be used according to the rules for questionable sources, which I quoted above. It's not an end run, it's more pointing out that because what those sources said is so uncontroversial, they don't need to be RS's, which solves things nicely for everyone: no one has to call them reliable, and we can un-template them because there's no dispute whether the sources are questionable--they are.  You and I are reading the policy on questionable sources differently, and THAT might be a good topic for a third opinion. Jclemens (talk) 06:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You failed to mark it correctly as closed (just provided a link to the template rather than the template itself), and I've removed that as you have re-opened this issue by this end run. One of the commenters on the thread clearly stated: "Based on the information that I have seen, there is no clear reason to believe that the source in question meets RS standards, which would seem to disqualify it from inclusion for any reason." (my emphasis) This does not seem to offer any sort of support for slipping it in under WP:SELFPUB. None of the other commenters gave any impression that they would support its inclusion under WP:SELFPUB. HrafnTalkStalk 06:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for fixing that.  However, since we're agreed those sources do not meet the reliability criteria, RS/N really doesn't have any bearing on it.  Not an end run, just the fact that SPS and Questionable Sources aren't within their jurisdiction--the inclusion of those sources is governed by the relevant parts of the policy WP:V rather than the guideline WP:RS. Jclemens (talk) 07:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are attempting an end run around the RS/N consensus with your ludicrously tendentious interpretation of WP:SELFPUB. As far as I am concerned, this consensus stands, unless and until you can get consensus support for your interpretation from WT:V. As far as I am concerned you are WP:GAMEing the system by seeking repeated appeals on these flimsy sources. Enough is enough. I am deleting these sources until you can establish that they meet WP:V. HrafnTalkStalk 07:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The consensus at RS/N is that JSPS is not a reliable source--period.  The permissable use of a questionable source within the limited context of this article is something upon which we do not agree. There were never any comments, and hence no consensus, on Schuman.  Since the notability of World Scripture is established without either reference, I don't see the need to add them back in immediately. Jclemens (talk) 04:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relying on Questionable Sources

message: As I have already stated on the RS/N thread, the policy that you are quoting clearly states "questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves" -- and this is not "about themselves", it is about a book written by somebody else, in an article about that somebody else. As you replied to that RS/N comment by stating "We can take this back to the talk page now", you cannot be unaware of it, so I can see no way of reading your claims as being other than tendentious and in bad faith. HrafnTalkStalk 05:46, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Schuman is being used about what Schuman said, Clark in JSTS is being used about what Clark said.  Neither are referring to third parties--unless you count the book as a third party. Neither is being used as a source about what Wilson said or did, nor would I propose such, because then your logic would apply. Jclemens (talk) 05:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This, thoroughly tendentious, interpretation would completely gut the "about themselves" part of that policy. The statements are "about" the book. They are about a third party's book. This is nothing short of an end-run around the consensus on RS/N. HrafnTalkStalk 06:21, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The consensus, and you'll note that I market the issue closed, is that these are questionable sources, and must be used according to the rules for questionable sources, which I quoted above. It's not an end run, it's more pointing out that because what those sources said is so uncontroversial, they don't need to be RS's, which solves things nicely for everyone: no one has to call them reliable, and we can un-template them because there's no dispute whether the sources are questionable--they are.  You and I are reading the policy on questionable sources differently, and THAT might be a good topic for a third opinion. Jclemens (talk) 06:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You failed to mark it correctly as closed (just provided a link to the template rather than the template itself), and I've removed that as you have re-opened this issue by this end run. One of the commenters on the thread clearly stated: "Based on the information that I have seen, there is no clear reason to believe that the source in question meets RS standards, which would seem to disqualify it from inclusion for any reason." (my emphasis) This does not seem to offer any sort of support for slipping it in under WP:SELFPUB. None of the other commenters gave any impression that they would support its inclusion under WP:SELFPUB. HrafnTalkStalk 06:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for fixing that.  However, since we're agreed those sources do not meet the reliability criteria, RS/N really doesn't have any bearing on it.  Not an end run, just the fact that SPS and Questionable Sources aren't within their jurisdiction--the inclusion of those sources is governed by the relevant parts of the policy WP:V rather than the guideline WP:RS. Jclemens (talk) 07:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are attempting an end run around the RS/N consensus with your ludicrously tendentious interpretation of WP:SELFPUB. As far as I am concerned, this consensus stands, unless and until you can get consensus support for your interpretation from WT:V. As far as I am concerned you are WP:GAMEing the system by seeking repeated appeals on these flimsy sources. Enough is enough. I am deleting these sources until you can establish that they meet WP:V. HrafnTalkStalk 07:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The consensus at RS/N is that JSPS is not a reliable source--period.  The permissable use of a questionable source within the limited context of this article is something upon which we do not agree. There were never any comments, and hence no consensus, on Schuman.  Since the notability of World Scripture is established without either reference, I don't see the need to add them back in immediately. Jclemens (talk) 04:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Asked and answered -- [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]] 

message: Assuming for the sake of argument that the contested sources remain removed from the article, what is the best way to improve this? Does anyone who participated in the AfD believe that the article, as it stands now, merits deletion?  If so, how can it be improved? Jclemens (talk) 05:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, but look how far we've come! Always look on the bright side of life. :-) Jclemens (talk) 07:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's quite amazing how much unencyclopedic trivia you can accumulate, if you throw WP:NOT out the window. The fact that this tells us virtually nothing about the man or his scholarship is, presumably, beside the point. HrafnTalkStalk 10:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Which specific paragraph(s) of WP:NOT do you believe apply to this article in its current state? Not trying to play dumb here, but I don't see that any of them apply, so it's hard to address your concerns--WP:NOT doesn't really cover the failure of WP:N, which is what I understood your complaint all along to be. Jclemens (talk) 15:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:NOT#Content: "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" -- the collection of information for this article has been entirely indiscriminate, and appears to be an effort to bring together every mention of Wilson or his book, irrespective of the brevity of mention or the obscurity (or even lack of reliability) of the source. HrafnTalkStalk 17:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

text: This is of course related to WP:N (as is explicitly stated in WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information). HrafnTalkStalk 17:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

text: None of these points seem to come close to meeting any of the criteria in WP:ACADEMIC#Criteria. And to meet it he must have done more than make a "contribution to Unificationism", he must have made a contribution that garnered significant notice from outside Unificationism. HrafnTalkStalk 14:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you think it would be better to merge his bio into the Unification Theological Seminary article? A section on faculty and their accomplishments would, perhaps, go down well. Please answer in terms of what you think readers are looking for when the come to Wikipedia to check out what we can tell them about Dr. Wilson. --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have no problem with that. Both articles are sufficiently short that a merger would not be problematic (nor even diminish Wilson's prominence of placement by much -- as he'd become the sole non-lead section to date). Additionally, both WP:AFD & the notability template instruct us to contemplate merger before we look at outright deletion. His relevance to that article is fairly obvious, and once we move to a section rather than a stand-alone article, WP:NOTE no longer applies. HrafnTalkStalk 16:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there's several parts of the article:  The bits about Wilson's activities and minor publications would fit fine, but I have two concerns: 1) The deprogramming doesn't fit well, happening before he joined UTS faculty, and that's really the most Wilson-centric RS coverage we have for him, and 2) World Scripture is almost big enough to have its own article--especially since several of the "coatracky" arguments evaporate if the book section is broken out. If no one else thinks #1 is a real issue, then that's not as big a deal. The more research I do in support of this article, the more I'm convinced that WS is a notable book. Jclemens (talk) 16:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: [written before Hrafn's comment above]: Some editors on Wikipedia seem to equate notability with number of mentions in news articles that can be accessed on the web. Michael Jenkins and Tyler Hendricks easily passed AfD because of their mention in news reports, but what about their real accomplishments? To me Wilson seems more genuinely notable than any other Western Unificationist, even though most of the references were pre-Internet an are hard to find. He is certainly the most accomplished and prominent living Unificationist academic. It would be inappropriate to merge into the Unification Theological Seminary article. Additional material and hard-to-find references are needed, and time needs to be given for that to happen. Jclemens is to be applauded for his efforts in this regard, and he should be helped, especially by those who know something about Wilson and can track down facts and references. I didn't know, for example, that Communism:Promise and Practice,  the second most important book on politics in Unificationism (and Unification Church political involvement has been mentioned in probably thousands of news articles), was written by Wilson. (At present there is no mention of this book in the article.) What else is missing? Come on Ed, stop holding out on us! -Exucmember (talk) 16:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

text: [written after Hrafn's comment above]: The closing admin at the AfD (result: Keep) suggested we contemplate renaming to World Scripture if nothing else of note can be found about Wilson in the next few weeks/months, linking to the essay Wikipedia:There is no deadline. We need to give this article time to improve first before talking about merger. -Exucmember (talk) 16:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I wonder if we are confusing Frank Kaufmann with Andrew Wilson. Kaufmann is more of a theologian; he edits a bimonthly magazine on theological topics. He's more involved in peace-building (there's has perennial involvement with the Middle East Peace Initiative. I think of Dr. Wilson as more of a professor and school administrator than as an activist or author. But both are editors: Wilson edited World Scripture, and Kaufmann has been editing New World Encyclopedia. --Uncle Ed (talk) 20:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt it. The problem is that if Wilson isn't notable as a theologian or peace activist (and there's no evidence that Kaufmann is particularly notable as those either), then what is he notable for? The lack of any reviews of WS of any real depth or expertise, means that we cannot claim that he is notable for this book alone -- and we have nothing whatsoever on his scholarly contributions more generally. HrafnTalkStalk 07:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving Forward 

message: Ed has renamed this article with the rationale "more of an educator than a theologian, being an academic dean and all that". I would point out the following:
#No "and all that" has been established. The sum total of Wilson's verifiable educational accomplishments to date is that he is Academic Dean of UTS -- whose 120 students (as of last count) puts it smaller than most high schools and many elementary schools. Hardly a source, or even a contributor, of any substantive notability.
#"Dean" is more of an educational bureaucrat than an 'educator' (just as superintendent is at a secondary level).
#The normal description for a tertiary 'educator' is 'academic'. I am curious as to why this more common and less clumsy description was not chosen.
HrafnTalkStalk 03:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I also agreed, much better than either "educator" or "theologian". I tried to move the page just now, but it was already moved! -Exucmember (talk) 03:14, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

text: *Ummm, I think you mean unificationist theologian, not unitarian. And the problem is that we have no more than bare mention on most of these. We have somebody declaring him a "leading unificationist theologian" (or similar), but not stating why. We have a citation that he led the translation team of Exposition of the Divine Principle, but nobody outside the church seems to have noticed. His status as a "deprogramming survivor/protestor" was only noticed by the student newspaper of the university where the protest occured. To use the phrasing of a footnote to WP:NOTE, there is no "strong evidence of interest by the world at large". Lacking this, we do not have notability, and we are unlikely to have the basis for a solid article (as we have no WP:RS to provide details on his theological work, educational accomplishments, etc). HrafnTalkStalk 03:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: *Heh, you're right.  I'm neither a unitarian nor a unificationist but I do know the difference--musta been thinking about that church shooting in the news recently. At any rate, I think we've both made our points clear on our disagreement re: notability.  I was bringing up the diversity of his pursuits not to reopen that debate, but rather to note that his claims to notability are not constrained to any one of those areas. Jclemens (talk) 03:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Eh, "educator" makes me think of a junior high school teacher--not a flattering title for a Harvard Ph.D. :-) Jclemens (talk) 03:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll just say that some people with advanced degrees choose to teach middle school--and edit Wikipedia articles regarding "real" acadmics--just for the record... ;) S. Dean Jameson 03:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: [edit conflict - also responding to Jclemens comment] He's also a full professor, as well as a scholar whose work has been praised by Hans Kung, Huston Smith, Templeton Prize winner Inamullah Khan, John Kelsay (Florida State U), in addition to scholars who contributed to World Scripture. -Exucmember (talk) 03:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Do we have RS'ing for any of that?  Much of it is new to me. Jclemens (talk) 03:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Andrew Wilson (''educator'')"? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Andrew Wilson (academic). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120216022110/http://www.uts.edu:80/my-profile/userprofile/wilson.html to http://uts.edu/my-profile/userprofile/wilson.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080512012742/http://www.howard.edu:80/library/Divinity_Library/Reference.htm to http://www.howard.edu/library/Divinity_Library/Reference.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080821215412/http://www.southwestern.edu/library/religion.html to http://www.southwestern.edu/library/religion.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080512012742/http://www.howard.edu:80/library/Divinity_Library/Reference.htm to http://www.howard.edu/library/Divinity_Library/Reference.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080724183305/http://library.austincc.edu/w3/RLG/ to http://library.austincc.edu/w3/RLG/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110327062557/http://journals.uts.edu:80/wilson-andrew.html to http://journals.uts.edu/wilson-andrew.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:04, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified