Talk:The Dreaming

message: No reference in the article to shamanistic tradition with psychedelic plants? It's a likely part of what Dreamtime is about.--Dr zoidberg590 (talk) 02:14, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Shamanistic Psychedelic plant use

message: *The Dreamtime is the era before the Earth was created, ...
*The Dreamtime still exists and can be accessed for spiritual purposes.
*...he created the Earth and then retired as the Dreamtime vanished. 
Can somebody explain how these 3 excerpts from the article can be true at the same time. How can the Dreamtime still exist when it has vanished?  Is the Dreamtime really an era in time which has finished, or is it rather some sort of parallel space-time concept? I'm well aware that I shouldn't see space and time here as they are understood in the West, but I'm unsure how I should see it then. D.D. 09:18, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: As I understand it, while the Dreaming is the prehistoric time during which the world was created by the Ancestors, it also refers to the present and future times because of the spiritual link between Aborigines and the Ancestors through the Country. Thus there is an understanding of the 'Dreaming worldview', where the Ancestor's spirits make a direct contribution to the world. Similar to say Greco-Roman mythology, or the Old Testament notion of God, where gods interact with mankind, rather than being distant. Artiste-extraordinaire 05:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I think you are very close in your cultural definition, I would go even further by correcting the article where it states
" Indigenous Australians considered the Everywhen of the Dreaming to be objective, whilst linear time was considered a subjective construction of waking consciousness of one's own lifetime. This is in the converse of the European concept which views dreams as subjective and linear time as objective"
This would be correct if the aboriginals were actually speaking of what we call dreams, but what was pointed out most astutely in
the line before is that " Indigenous Australians considered the Everywhen of the Dreaming to be objective" as do what western
culture describes as abstract thought. Aristotle makes the very same observation when he predicates truth statements on abstract
cultural universals and deems the particular experience of the individual as subjective and less real than objective universal
abstract thought in much the same way as the Australian aboriginal. Abstract universal cultural themes, as Plato asserted, seem
more real than inductive experience. Dreamtime therefore follows closely with Plato's theory of forms. I propose citing Wiki's
own link to Platos theory of forms and abstract thought.
Naredowell (talk) 19:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Abstract thinking

message: The Aboriginal Dreamtime makes excellent sense when looked at in terms of Potential.
Before anything can be said to exist it must have the potential to exist. Potential has no substance and nor does a dream. Potentials represent ideas, possibilities or a blueprint for what can be. Given energy potentials can be actualised. These Potentials/Dreamtime can still be accessed as an idea can be accessed. When a potential is fullfilled it is no longer a potential but an actuality. It cannot be said that the potential has ceased to exist once it is fullfilled because potentials do not truly exist in the first place.
To access the Dreamtime would be to access the world of Potentials.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.194.246 (talk) 23:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice analogy. Do any experts have anything to say about this?Artiste-extraordinaire 05:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Before Existence

message: The definition of what the dreamtime actually is was buried in the middle, I am moving it to the top. GreatAlfredini 20:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving definition to top

message: The Dreamtime is actually an offensive term to the Aborigines, it was invented as a condesending term for the silly things they believe. The correct term (and more accurate one) is the Tjukurpa, which is a network of beliefs that covers creation myths, tribal laws, family interactions, hunting/gathering advice, etc. So maybe "dreamtime" could redirect to Tjukurpa and the opening paragraph could explain that the Dreamtime was the European name for their belief system. Sad mouse 22:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Sambo 03:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe it is offensive, or at least not to all Aboriginal groups, since I've seen it used in works that are otherwise very sensitive to cultural issues. Tjukurpa, on the other hand, is its name in just one of many languages. --Ptcamn 03:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The trick is to find a term that isn't offensive to any Aboriginal group.  I'm thinking, I'm thinking... Sambo 03:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to see a link or a citation before we do anything. And even then it might be better to just stick with Dreamtime if no better term is actually in use. --Ptcamn 03:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed that it is only the name in one language, how has this problem been overcome in other cases? but disagree that we should stick with an offensive and inaccurate term just because it is commonly used - people will still find the article if it is redirected. Until recently Ayer's Rock was the only name anyone used for Uluru but the official dual name policy (Ayer's Rock to Ayer's Rock-Uluru to Uluru-Ayer's Rock) changed that. Sad mouse 14:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Could we move this page?

message: : Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
* Oppose see above --Ptcamn 15:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The references section at the end of the article was deleted. At first, I thought it was done on purpose,  but when I found no discussion on the talk page about the deletion of the references, I realised that this has probably been done by someone from the IP address 161.97.164.101. It appears that this is the same person who had appended the sentence "The girll named Heather........" at the end of the article. The reference section is now restored.
Savio mit electronics 21:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Restored Deleted References

message: The end of the intro has the claim that the Arrernte have a 'sky-god' called Altjira, and gives names for this 'god' in several other languages. I'd like to see a reference for this as I'm pretty sure it's incorrect. The word 'altjira' (usually spelled altyerre in one of the Arrernte orthographies), like the Western Desert word tjukurpa, means 'story' and is used as a name for the Dreaming. I don't believe it is the name of a 'god'. Dougg 00:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also seen Dreaming translated in Arrernte as Altjeringa. Does Tjukurpa work generally in Pama Nungan.  What is it in Yolnyu?
John D. Croft 13:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Altjira/Tjukurpa 

message: This page is basically a giant preamble, then gets to actual sections in the last 3/4. It should probably be broken up into relevant paragraphs for a better "Wikipedia" format.
--Alekjds 02:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikification 

message: Have there been any studies done on the Dreaming and Jung? I don't particularly want to get rid of that stubby bit there, but without anything to back it up it just looks like creeping OR.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Artiste-extraordinaire (talk • contribs) 13:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cross-currents 

message: someone knowledgeable on this subjects should look over the edits by Gamahucher to see if they are notable, as all of the edits by this user seem to be promoting some writer named Colin Leslie Dean and linking to his private press for sources. I am not familiar enough with the matter to tell whether these edits should be reverted, but I have done so in other fields. darkskyz 13:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny that you use the same argumentation also on other pages, while your edits are also removed for the same reason on other pages: obvious self-promotion of your own articles. Could the removal perhaps be the result of the way you add your information, instead of the reasons you write above? I can understand that you are proud of your writings. But adding them yourself without any prior discussion on the discussion page can irritate people. I would suggest to start by investigating how the discussion pages may help when adding new information, especially when referring to your own work. Cheers. Didgeweb 06:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreamtime ontology 

message: I added a very short description and link to the Origin_belief page. cornis 15:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added short section to Origin belief 

message: This article itself states that "The Dreaming" is a synonym for "Dreamtime" and is culturally preferred by Indigenous Australian peoples. Furthermore it is a less misleading terms as it doesn't have "time" in the name which seems to cause a lot of confusion. And thirdly, this article uses the term "Dreaming" much more than "Dreamtime" to refer to the concept. Why not redirect from "Dreaming" to "The Dreamtime"? Bob.firth 00:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why isn't this article called  "The Dreaming"? 

message: Should this article be merged with "Dreaming (spirituality)"? They cover essentially the same material although this article seems to be in a much better shape. If they are two separate ideas, what should go where? I.e. what is the difference between Dreamtime and Dreaming under a two article scheme? Bob.firth 06:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree wholeheartedly. Please, somebody create a merge discussion box and tag. Softlavender (talk) 02:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with "[[Dreaming (spirituality)]]"? 

message: Can someone please tell me what language this term is, and also put it in the article. Thanks Enlil Ninlil 01:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stated in Alcheringa (journal) to be Arrernte language (specifically Arunta), and also spelled alcheringa. The reference given is Strehlow, T.G.H., 1971, Songs of central Australia. See also Altjira, which is unreferenced. Pingku (talk) 15:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Altjeringa

message: Different Aboriginal tribes have wildly differing stories, with many contradictions, both between stories AND within them. Is this surprising? Using the term "Dreamtime" and expecting there to be no difference between cultures (let alone individuals) is as absurd as expecting to find no disagreement between Martin Luther King and Fred Phelps, since they are both considered "Christians". Even when we have a "foundational" document (the Bible) at our disposal (which we obviously don't in the case of the Australian Aboriginals), the ambiguity of language and the complexity of human thought require one to draw conclusions carefully and specifically, not recklessly and generally, which is where "Dreamtime" as a concept of English thought failed. The only reason why we still use the term "the Dreaming" is because 1) it's concise and therefore convenient, and 2) since we know it has to do with the mysticism of a people, it is compelling in its vagueness. It may still have some value, but not until more research is done and disseminated.
There are surely consistencies between Aboriginal beliefs, and they should be addressed, but not by using the term "The Dreaming" as a starting point; the article should be retitled "The Cosmology (or some other such term) of Australian Aboriginals" or something like that, and dealt with on a regional/tribal basis. Further reading: "The Australian Aboriginal 'Dreamtime'" by Colin Dean. Gamahucher Press: West Geelong Geelong Victoria Australia, 1996. Available as a PDF, Google it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mendali (talk • contribs) 20:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too many generalizations, retitle article 

message: Just skimming over this article, there are a few minor issues throughout the article. Use of capitals for generic terms, such as 'spirit beings', etc is the most obvious. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines. There are also a few statements that incorrectly imply that all indigenous Australians subscribe to the traditional belief system.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Various issues 

message: Why is there no actual information? When was this term first recorded? Which language was it recorded in? Who reported it and on what authority? When did it become an item of pop culture and New Age fad? 
The article Australian Aboriginal mythology seems to claim this is simply a poetic term for what might otherwise be called "Australian Aboriginal mythology". So perhaps the pages should be merged? (I don't know because I have not researched this, and because the article doesn't even try to be informative. Instead it makes rambling assertions, interspersed with gems like "there are many Aboriginal cultures", which seems to say "yeah, we don't have a reference, but it doesn't matter because if we had one, it would just be a factoid from one of hundreds of Aboriginal cultures, and we don't want to be bogged down in actual ethnology, that would spoil the dreamy effect). --dab (𒁳) 08:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this article itself written in Dreamtime mode?

message: David Moore Cox and Possamai are 85-108 Nishidani (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note to self 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Moved   (t · c) buidhe 01:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Dreamtime →  – General consensus within Aboriginal groups appears to suggest that "The Dreaming" is more of an appropriate term than the "dreamtime", as most Aboriginal communities do not align The Dreaming with any certain timeperiod. There's so little connection between The Dreaming and time that it has also been called the "everywhen". Prominent Australian Anthropologist W.E.H. Stanner has described that "One cannot 'fix' The Dreaming in time: it was, and is, everywhen” (Common Ground, Creative Spirits). Christine Nicholls, a Senior Lecturer at ANU with extensive experience in Aboriginal communities, explains how "The Dreaming embraces time past, present and future" and that The Dreaming wasn't a past time (i.e. "dawn of time" is incorrect) nor is timeless (Source). N.B. That Creative Spirits describes that the Aboriginal consensus is that The Dreaming has a capital T and D. ItsPugle (talk) 09:25, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 11 June 2020 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 21:42, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dreaming →  – This article is getting less than a majority of the pageviews.  Per WP:NOPRIMARY, The Dreaming should redirect to the main dab page at Dreaming. 162 etc. (talk) 19:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

text: Pageviews here 162 etc. (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 2 June 2021