Wikipedia talk:Schoolcruft/Archive 1

message: Please do not say that "this is a definition that all users should know about". It is not. TerriersFan 04:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is not an agreed definition 

message: You might want to mention that school editors often edit from school IP addresses which are often dynamic.  If they are malicious, this is a real problem and even if they aren't, it's difficult too because contacting them through IP address talk pages doesn't work at all.
If they don't know much about Wikipedia, and don't know to do to the talk pages or about edit histories etc, this can be a real problem.  Miss Mondegreen  talk  13:42, June 9 2007 (UTC)
*Good point, will evaluate and come up with some appropriate language shortly. Thewinchester (talk) 14:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  rotating IPs of schools 

message: This essay is long on describing the problem but short on solutions. Lisiting policy documents is not particularly helpful. What I should prefer is:
* Reference to some good school articles as examples
* A template to guide authors to a correct structure
On dealing with poor articles the way forward should be:
* Remove the objectionable material then stub the article.
* If the school is notable then the article should be improved (best) or tagged for improvement
* If the school is not notable then primary (elementary) schools should be put up for deletion but middle/high schools should be merged (if there is mergable content) into the achool district or locality and redirected. TerriersFan 17:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there may be a mixup here between articles and behaviour/tendency. This essay addresses the latter - the former is a matter for policies and guidelines as is any other Wikipedia article and indeed it would probably be inappropriate for an essay to address grounds better covered by existing policies and guidelines. The need for this essay arose because of 30+ XfDs across every area (MfD, CfD, TfD, AfD, RfD), several hundred speedies, GAC and FAC nominations (all of which failed), countless hours of coaching, fixing and such things by almost every admin and active user in the local Wikiproject, and several blocks. These issues are far bigger than a school's article and extend to an entire concept that really isn't defined elsewhere - basically, well-meaning editors (i.e. we're not talking vandals here, or bad faith editors) who are so blinded by pride in their educational institution that they are incapable of seeing that their actions don't assist in building and developing an encyclopaedia based on inclusion criteria. They don't just work on one article - they can literally create hundreds in a matter of days or even hours. Then templates magically start appearing, and categories. Over time we have found that some do eventually come around or grow out of it and become productive Wikipedians, however, that takes a long time and a lot of patience for a mixture of people of various temperaments to achieve. We're all volunteers, we all have limited time, so hours taken out sorting out these mini-crises every couple of weeks eats into the time we can spend productively developing articles of our own towards FA/GA or collaboration within the Wikiproject or indeed with others elsewhere (I'm presently involved with no less than 8 public projects and 4 private ones, and I think many people here are similarly committed). As for the last suggestion, the Australian consensus has leaned towards (although not ruled) a view that large high schools (public or private) or the institutional high schools are notable on their own while primary schools and small private schools are not. Orderinchaos 17:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some helpful thoughts, thank you. On this basis I have removed two sentences from the article that purport to guide how to deal with such articles. The first sentence encourages misuse of speedy tags and the second recommends deletion when, as indicated above, there are several better options. TerriersFan 20:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On reflection, that change makes a lot of sense. Essentially this whole thing should ultimately be 1. How did this come about? 2. What is the problem, and its identifying features (starting with the most humorous and ridiculous, as I think getting people to see the error of their own ways by laughing at obviously ridiculous/out-there examples moreso than their own at first can actually be helpful - speaking as a trainee teacher here) 3. What can admins do if confronted by such a situation, and 4. How can we educate or help these users to see the way forward into a new paradigm of editing harmony? I think somewhere we might need to more carefully note that it is a certain class of school aged editors - I have seen school aged editors who exhibit a maturity that is rare to see even in adults, and others who may not but are still capable of editing encyclopaedically. I think we're starting from a good base with what we have, but there is *always* scope for improvement of a community resource. Orderinchaos 05:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Way forward with this essay 

message: The purpose of an 'essay' is to try to persuade other people to a point of view, or course of action; otherwise one wouldn't be written! There is a problem with this paragraph (and I hope that I am saying this without either grandstanding or frothing :-)) in that it does point editors to AN/I in inappropriate circumstances where, for example, no admin would be prepared to block (for instance, we do not block for bad editing). This wastes the time of all involved. I therefore suggest this compromise reworking of the paragraph that meets the core of Alansohn's objections while still conveying IMHO what the authors are trying to communicate: "However, articles created by anonymous IP editors are always the most difficult to deal with. When it has been clearly demonstrated that they have not heeded the call, or fail to participate in attempts to help them learn more about the problems with the content they are contributing, and the Schoolcruft crosses the line into vandalism then action through AN/I should be considered." TerriersFan 21:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Thank you for saying what I didn't want to be the first to, lest some user gets on their soapbox and claims WP:OWN again. To be perfectly honest, I'd love to see what a counter essay to Schoolcruft would look like. How would it be structured, what positive points could be raised about schoolcruft, let alone found? I challenge Alansohn to come up with such an essay, but I doubt very much it would even come close to the levels of levity and seriousness to sustain it's existence. Thewinchester (talk) 10:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The claim that an essay allows editors to throw out Wikipedia rules is false. The claim that only the most sanctimonious extreme deletionists who oppose the addition of any school-related information on Wikipedia are entitled to edit this article is an explicit claim of WP:OWN. Every single editor on Wikipedia is entitled to edit every single article. As there seems to be a consistent problem with following Wikipedia policy, its about time that the two of you actually read the relevant policy at Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#The differences between policies, guidelines, essays, etc. which states that "If you do not want other people to reword your essay, put it in your userspace." Move this article to your userspace if you won't tolerate other editors removing the multiple WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF violations. Otherwise, it's time to move over and make room for some more participants. Alansohn 11:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *When it comes to replying to Alansohn (I see his rant continues unabated above), I can speak my mind since he knows my evil agenda to ruin Wikipedia one unnotable school at a time. User:Alansohn's theatrics, his tendency to wanton accusation and his officious and self-righteous policy waving as a mask for pushing his own rigid POV are well-known; when he gets into such a mood, he shouldn't be taken too seriously. Alan will now accuse me of personal attacks (or maybe remind me to be civil, but sadly the number of instances where he has crossed paths with editors in this fashion is all too frequent and well-documented. So: revert as necessary; take him to ANI if he refuses to abide by consensus. Above all, WP:DFTT. Eusebeus 11:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: *I can't say I disagree Eusebeus, because to someone who's not come across the user before it's exactly what is comes across as. As for this continued POV pushing and how WP:IGNORE does not allow WP editors to bend the rules beyond their extremely narrow and misguided view is patently false. And what's this crap The claim that only the most sanctimonious extreme deletionists who oppose the addition of any school-related information on Wikipedia are entitled to edit this article is an explicit claim of WP:OWN, nobody ever said that, it's a patent misrepresentation of the subject to make a point, and quite frankly demonstrates the own users problems. I would suggest that the user goes back, re-reads WP:IGNORE, then come up with an essay to challenge the issues raised in this one. If you're not going to do that let alone anything constructive, then at least please stop wasting the time of others. The essay has been reviewed by the community, it has been accepted, and if you want to continue to chuck a wobbly, then take it to WP:MFD and be prepared to be laughed out of the discussion with a snowball speedy keep and a massive slap by the bad faith monsters who out you for the wikitroll you are. Thewinchester (talk) 13:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: *Well, that is exactly right, but Alansohn will always insist on having the last word (hence WP:DFTT) and I can safely predict that in his goulash of a reply that will inevitably follow, we will have healthy portions of policy self-righteously bandied around, including WP:OWN, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and (incredibly from such an incessant POV pusher) WP:NPOV. Moreover, as long as editors respond to him, he'll continue his attack since he is incapable of letting go. So, the best thing is to just let him have his last word, with the larger view being what you have iterated above: namely this has been through MfD, and consensus has been established to let the essay's arguments and language stand as they are. Revisions that run counter to that should be reverted and if the bad behaviour continues, the user should be reported to WP:ANI, which, given the issue at hand, is rather (dare I say) ironic. Eusebeus 13:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The only thing that the MfD consensus means is that the article meets the bare minimum to exist. It says nothing that allows a screed that repeatedly violates WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF, all as a WP:POINT violation that claims that those editors who disagree on school-related content issues should be sent to WP:ANI, simply because the "cruft"-patrol disagrees. The persistent refusal by both User:Eusebeus and User:Thewinchester to consider reasoned proposals that I and other users have offered to address some of the most disgraceful portions of this essay are further evidence of a refusal to follow WP:CONSENSUS. Again as stated Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#The differences between policies, guidelines, essays, etc. "If you do not want other people to reword your essay, put it in your userspace." Move this article to your userspace if you won't tolerate other editors removing the multiple WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF violations under a process that follows WP:CONSENSUS to reach appropriate wording. Again, defend the wording or deal with revisions; anything else is a WP:OWN violation. Alansohn 14:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: <--- moving back 
User:Alansohn you have made 3 reverts to this article in the last 24 hours please read WP:3RR, also where is this consensus you are talking about I don't see any section that has ask for opinions to find what the consensus is. I do note that User:TerriersFan proposed a rewording but you launched back into your attack on this article and acted in a troll like manner continuing this discussion with User:Thewinchester and User:Eusebeus.  As you are the one proposing a change to the article please put your version of the wording on the talk so that it can be discussed properly. I also remind everybody of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines;
 
An essay is any page that is not actionable or instructive, regardless of whether it's authorized by consensus. Essays tend to be opinionated. Essays need not be proposed or advertised, you can simply write them, as long as you understand that you do not generally speak for the entire community. If you do not want other people to reword your essay, put it in your userspace
Ive highlighted to points one an essay is opinionated and two that other people can edit them, that while other people can edit them consensus still applies as does WP:3RR where as the fact that they are recognised as opinionated also means that WP:NPOV clearly doesn't apply , and WP:AGF is clearly expressed as the starting point for schoolcruft editing anyway, with;
*If they are a registered user, gentle coaching ...
*when it has been clearly demonstrated they have not heeded the call, or simply fail to participate in attempts to help them learn
There is nothing Uncivil in these comments, it shows that coaching, talking, helping are steps prior to any action being taken.  The purpose is to help other editors who come across such an occurrence of rapidly expanding single school related articles what signs to look for when the expansion of the articles has gone beyond encyclopedic content, what policies to refer them to and where to get to help and further advice. It also is a way to full explain background at an AfD as to why article/category/template should be deleted. Gnangarra 16:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You seem to have latched onto a misinterpretation of this one line as an excuse to WP:HATE the entire essay. I am failing to see how WP:POINT (which you keep citing) is being violated. WP:CIVIL is "a code for the conduct of editing and writing edit summaries, comments, and talk page discussions" and WP:AGF specifically states that "this guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary", so I'm failing to see how either of these are violated. Consensus *has* largely been reached on the wording - unfortunately it was your refusal to seek consensus (violating the terms of the very official policy you cited), instead risking WP:3RR and making some very incivil comments towards fellow editors, and not assuming good faith towards them, which led to this situation. I would ask respectfully that you reconsider your own actions and what you are actually aiming to achieve. If it's solely to get the essay moved to userspace or hacked to pieces and no negotiation is possible in your own mind, regardless of what we do, this itself may be a WP:POINT violation in itself. Orderinchaos 20:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry to repeat myself, and you are quite right Orderinchaos in your comments, but Alansohn has no interest in being convinced or working towards consensus for an argument he fundamentally despises. So this is simply feeding the troll. His contribution here is disingenuous: he should be ignored. By way of fairness, I note that Alan has something like 30,000 edits and he is an excellent contributor when not behaving like this. But in these instances, nothing is gained by engaging in debate. He is not listening And now, **SIGH**, back to Alansohn for another pointless reiteration of his empty accusations and another listing of the supposed policy violations.... Eusebeus 21:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: *There is no consensus on the wording of the sentence; at best, there is consensus that this article should exist, for the time being. Wikipedia:Be bold states that "The Wikipedia community encourages users to be bold in updating articles. Wikis like ours develop faster when everybody helps to fix problems, correct grammar, add facts, make sure the wording is accurate, etc." The wording of this sentence stating that WP:ANI is the only alternative to deal with those who have had the nerve to add what the authors of this article have derisively referred to as "Schoolcruft", is inherently uncivil. WP:CIVIL itself states "Do not ignore the positions and conclusions of others." There has been no discussion on the alternative wording that I boldly proposed or the compromise wording suggested by User:TerriersFan; in contrast, there has been no discussion at any point demosntrating that there is consensus on the sentence in question. The relevant policy for essays at Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#The differences between policies, guidelines, essays, etc. states that "If you do not want other people to reword your essay, put it in your userspace." Move this article to your userspace -- or that of any of the others who think that they WP:OWN this article -- if you won't tolerate other editors removing the multiple WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF violations. If this article is going to stay in the mainspace, it will be changed. Alansohn 21:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: *Will send in the Misabot to handle it. Thewinchester (talk) 22:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *We still need an explanation for the dozens of changes made to this article since it was set in stone after the MfD ended last week, when supposed consensus was reached on "retaining the essay as written". Though I must admit that the existing version is less bad than the previous version which read "However, articles created by anonymous IP Schoolcruft editors are always the most difficult to deal with, and sometimes action through AN/I is the only appropriate path when it has been clearly demonstrated they have not learnt, nor will they listen to attempts or offers to learn why nobody likes what they're contributing." The patently uncivil sentiment remains, but at least the words are a tiny bit less offensive than before. It is rather ironic that the big bold box at the top of this essay states "Please update the page as needed, or discuss it on the talk page." I guess that's another item that needs to be fixed in this essay. Alansohn 03:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *For heavens sake, have you not figured it out yet? Either take it to XfD and look forward to being laughed out of the room, write an opposing essay, or politely put a sock it in. Nobody here cares your your particularly annoying rants, which only serve the purpose of disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, and in themselves are just crying out for spanking at WP:ANI. This is not withstanding that you came within minutes of breaching WP:3RR on the essay. As for asking for explanation of changes to the article, you've got some real cheek asking that so considering that half these edits have been caused by you going all WP:POV without you first discussing it at talk. All the other edits are simple language changes and addition of references to provide more clarity to it (and you would have seen that it if you'd bothered to spend even 15 seconds looking at the history). Your continued ranting about statements in the essay have been asked, answered, and answered again. It's not uncivil, and accurately reflects all Wikipedia policies on dealing with vandalism. This is the end of the matter, and you have already brought up enough ill will for key editors to not only ignore your persistent ranting on this non-issue, but it's to the point where even a mild mannered editor with infinite patience like myself would like nothing more than for you to be permanently banned from Wikipedia. Please, for the sake of the wiki and for all man kind, please go back to New Jersey and continue create useless redirects for bus route numbers, troll somewhere else, and leave this issue the heck alone. Thewinchester (talk) 06:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *The essay encouraged me to "Please update the page as needed", I did. In turn, you and your buddy reverted the changes without explanation or justification. The essay invited me to "discuss it on the talk page", and I have. I explained exactly why the wording was inappropriate, and I have pointed out that the version that survived MfD was far worse. I explained that the threat in the essay to take people to WP:ANI as part of a content dispute is uncivil, and you turn around and claim that by discussing the issue I am "crying out for spanking at WP:ANI"? Again, if you cannot tolerate changes to the essay -- the ones that you yourself have made and that editors are encouraged to do -- it's time to move this essay to a user page and stop with the bullying . You may disagree with what I have to say, but use words, not threats, to address your concerns. Alansohn 11:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Compromise offer