Talk:St. John's College (Annapolis/Santa Fe)/Archive 1

message: I attended the Annapolis campus, but only for a year.  However, I've stayed in touch with people, including the primary author of the Reality skit two years running.  Reality is unique, and the accounts quoted above do ring true with what I've seen.  But it's anything but standardized--I would say that it's different every year, and certainly different on each campus, because different students are involved every four years.  The year I was there the skit sucked, but the Spartan Madball day was epic.  In other years, the skit has been a high point, I hear.  Alcohol is certainly ubiquitous--at least when I was there SJC had more openly underage drinking than any other college I've been at, especially during Reality.  I believe that's changed in the past three years, but to what extent I couldn't say.  Regardless, Reality is unique and something objective and non-specific might be good.  I may go ahead and have a go at it.  It's an awesome and unique party at a awesomely unique school, so it deserves some mention.  But it is different every year, so whoever writes/edits the Reality section should probably keep that in mind to avoid disputes.  More about the spirit of the event than specific memories would probably be acceptable to all. --Mister Tattle 06:20, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Firsthand Account of Reality

message: How would one add a St. John's rejoiner to the 'criticism' section in light of the 'no original work' rule of Wikipedia?  That is, it seems to me that Russel and Einstein rather miss the point of the science and math curriculum, which is more of an exploration of what science is and a complement to the study of philosophy, and I feel that it would be only fair to say this in the article, but I don't know how to do it.
Wilhelm Ritter 17:24, 18 May 2006
:The best way would be to find an essay, article or talk from a St. John's advocate or supporter that addresses these issues, and quote from it or paraphrase its arguments.  I'm not sure where the best place to start would be, but I'd wager that someone like Chris Nelson or Eva Brann has addressed the subject of St. Johns' approach to science and mathematics at some point.  The key thing is to find something that's been previously published, which could be a newspaper or magazine article, something from the alumni magazine, or even a lecture or speech that's been transcribed and sold in the bookstore.  As long as it can be cited, that should take care of the "no original research" concerns. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism revisited

message: Searching a database of New York Times articles for references to other schools incorporating the St. John's approach, I came across some stray references to a venture called Liberal Arts, Inc. that involved a college founded, or to be founded, in Pittsfield, MA by Stringfellow Barr and Scott Buchanan. I've started an article on it. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Liberal Arts, Inc.]] 

message: Oh, I'm sorry, I really am. It was really mischievous of me to include some remarks by the famous business motivational speaker, Zig Ziglar. I just happen to think it is hysterically funny to see him commenting that "the books they use are terribly hard" and concluding "Sounds like St. John's is onto something."
I think perhaps someone ought to protect the page again to stop me from doing such things.
So, is Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill on the St. John's reading list yet? All the writers of "Success" literature concur in calling it a "classic." Dpbsmith (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zig Ziglar 

message: Wow! Dare I call this a "great book?" 
Charles A. Nelson (2001), Radical Visions: Stringfellow Barr, Scott Buchanan, and Their Efforts on behalf of Education and Politics in the Twentieth Century. Bergin and Garvey, Westport, CT. .
Very well written, thorough biography of the dynamic duo replete with all sorts of details and insights.. full of information about St. Johns and Liberal Arts, Inc. some of which I hope to get into the articles.
Well worth digging out if you have any interest in any of this stuff. Probably NOT quite worth it's $90-odd purchase price, however! Dpbsmith (talk) 01:12, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Radical Visions'' 

message: I revised the previous text to "The College's original charter, reflecting the Masonic value of religious tolerance as well as the religious diversity of the founders (they included both Presbyterians and Episcopalians),"
because the previous text spoke of the Masonic faith.  Freemasonry is not a faith; it is a fraternal organization.  Freemasons are required to believe in a Supreme Being, but they can be of any religion (or no religion).  Freemasons heavily emphasize religious tolerance, and they do not discuss religion in their meetings.  For a reference, see "Freemasons for Dummies" which is authored by Christopher Hodapp, a Freemason.
:I wouldn't worry about it. That is, I wouldn't worry about justifying your change; nobody is likely to challenge it. In addition to "Freemasons for Dummies," everything you say is also supported by our own article on Freemasonry. I don't know who wrote that sentence originally but I'm sure it was just a casual misstatement. I don't know much about Freemasonry myself, but I know it's not a religion; it's a fraternal organization which, like many fraternal organizations has some religious overtones. And I've personally know some Jewish Masons and some Catholic Masons so I'm well aware that it is not associated with any single denomination. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:29, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Masonic clarification 

message: This edit was made by 71.49.21.45:
'St. John's students style themselves "Johnnies" and tend to revel in what they see as the superiority of the St. John's program over mainstream U.S. college curricula. Johnnies typically deride undergraduate curricula that are oriented toward the transmission of definite knowledge, or toward success in the job market.'
I have reverted it and left a POV reminder on the users talk page. AntiVan 01:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anon  

message: As I think about it, I have a problem with this statement:
:"Johnnies", as St. John's students style themselves, often disdain the notion that intellectual pursuits need have direct practical application.
The problem I have is that this is just a way of saying that students at St. John's are aware of and share the school's core educational philosophy (as shown by Barr's disdainful remark about the "vocational interests and cafeteria courses" that "clutter" other schools' curricula). I'm trying to think of a phrasing that captures this succinctly. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is that necessary?  To my way of thinking, it's almost axiomatic that a student at any college will necessarily share its "core educational philosophy," so why bother calling attention to it?  --zenohockey 03:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that's sort of my point. I'm not sure which way to go with this, but I think saying that St. John's students "often disdain the notion that intellectual pursuits need have direct practical application" is a slightly distorted rendition of something that doesn't need to be said at all. Students that want their education to have direct practical application are probably not going to choose St. John's. It's sort of like saying "RPI students often place more value on engineering than on theology."  However, if it's going to be said at all, I think it needs an "as you'd expect" or "in line with the school's core philosophy" or something like that. I'd be happy to see the remark omitted entirely and replaced with something that just says St. John's students are often called "Johnnies," and leave it at that. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I.e. Johnnies are in accord with Barr/Buchanan? 

message: Why do I think this observation is more commonly made at the Athenian college than at the Spartan one?  :-)
Once (Sometime in the Spring of 2005), a group of St. John's (SF) students (including me) took a trip to Los Alamos, where an official there pointed to Santa Fe on the map, saying "Athens", and pointed to Los Alamos, saying "Sparta". --David Hand 15:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ...has inspired many a comparison to Athens and Sparta... 

message: I suggest removing the entirety following section at the end of the History section:
“In 2005, St. John's was marred by scandal when it was revealed that the college had employed C.J. McCue to spy on …. was allegedly attacked by Roosevelt Langley, the Annapolis dining hall supervisor.[10]”
That sort of content does not properly fit into the “history” of an institution, and would be better suited to a “recent gossip” section.  All colleges are bound to have internal disputes and legal difficulties, and I am sure you could fill a hundred pages with similar scandals at larger institutions, but you don’t find such prattle under their entries.   --Sigao 03:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Deletion 

message: Since when is the St. John's mascot a platypus?  I'm a current student, and have never heard anything about a platypus.  I know the SJCSF ultimate frisbee team calls themselves the "Books", but who really uses th platypus.  Anyone have a source?  Mabey there are platypus in Annapolis, but...
:"Mabey"?  Well, as a Google search for "'St. John's' platypus" reveals, " Though the College has no mascot, the platypus sometimes fills in, wearing a St. John’s College shirt and providing unique company for the students at St. John’s."  So sayeth the Annapolis bookstore.  --zenohockey 06:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Platypus?