Talk:Chicago (band)

message: On February 10, 2017, someone completely removed all of the text and citations about the "Now More Than Ever" documentary that aired on CNN in January, 2017 and replaced them with new, unreferenced text.  None of the removed text or added text is mine, but when I make edits I try to honor the previous editors. I propose some kind of amalgam of the previous text and current text, and definitely some "citations needed" for the current text as it stands.Curious405 (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Now More Than Ever" documentary that aired on CNN in January, 2017 

message: Can we please discuss the inclusion of Ray Herrmann as a band member, since it seems folks are trying to add him? He is listed on Chicago's "Band" page, which I always thought was the threshold for including people as members. Typically a band wouldn't list a touring musician with a bio and everything unless they are "in the band". I'm in favor of listing him in the Members section. Pinging . --Spike Wilbury (talk) 11:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I hadn't seen that link of yours, which indeed lists Herrmann. I won't stand in the way of him being listed as band member. Binksternet (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ray Herrmann 

message: I think there is too much information about Peter Cetera's solo career in this section. If people want to read about his solo career, they can go to his Wikipedia page. Also, I don't think he actually began a solo "career" while he was still with the band. He had made one solo album in 1981 and wanted time off to work on a second after the Chicago 17 tour. But Robert Lamm did a solo album in 1974, before Cetera, which is not mentioned anywhere on this Chicago wikipedia page. Did this mean that Robert Lamm had begun a solo "career"? Also, there is no reference given for this statement: "He proposed an arrangement with the band where they would take hiatuses after tours to let him focus on solo work, but the band declined."
Curious405 (talk) 02:48, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on Peter Cetera's departure. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The edits adding Bruce Gaitsch as a member of the band were reverted by user Spike Wilbury with a note to discuss on talk as there was no consensus on this matter.  The Chicago album "Night & Day: Big Band" lists Bruce Gaitsch in with the other members of the band in the liner notes.  There is also a listing for "Additional Musicians" and he is not put under there, but in with the band members and with no distinction from them.  Additionally, the liner notes for "Chicago: The Box" box set in 2003 lists Bruce Gaitsch as a member of the group.  There is also a 2007 interview with Robert Lamm (http://www.westcoast.dk/interviews/interviews-2007/robert-lamm-2007/) where it is stated that Bruce Gaitsch was listed as a member for "Night & Day: Big Band" (Question #20 of interview).  He does state Gaitsch did not want to be a permanent member, but stepped in for this album.  Keith Howland joined the band in 1995 after that album.  There is no question that Bruce Gaitsch worked with the band, only whether he was a member or not for that time.  If the album liner notes put out by the band in multiple places list him as a member for this work, shouldn't Wikipedia do the same.
For the line-ups, Drew Hester is listed as a member of the band in the article itself, but the line-ups section says he was only a touring member.  He was actually a member during the recording and release of "Chicago XXXIII: O Christmas Three" and is listed in the liner notes for that album.  That should also be corrected in the line-ups section to correspond with the sourced information contained in the article.  The line-ups section also has Dawayne Bailey as a member in 1985, but he joined in July 1986 after the recording of "Chicago 18" but prior to the tour.  "Chicago 18" was recorded in 1986 with session guitarists, none of which were listed as members of the band per the liner notes, and Dawayne Bailey was not one of those guitarists.  This should also be changed in the line-ups section.  The Timeline should then also be updated to reflect the corrections to the line-ups.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.102.200.19 (talk) 23:36, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: To editor 184.102.200.19:  You make good points, but Wikipedia articles require reliable sources per WP:IRS. References to the liner notes and interview should be added as citations IN THE ARTICLE. I have taken the liberty of adding a citation to the interview but I don't have access to liner notes. Suggest you add citations to the liner notes. I might also suggest adding a Notes section to the article and explaining the Gaitsch is/is not a member in a note.Curious405 (talk) 16:15, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bruce Gaitsch as a member and other Personnel Edits 

message: Please make this page only editable by logged in users. SportsFan007 (talk) 03:57, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Block Request 

message: I have submitted a request to create new Wikipedia articles at Wikipedia:Requested articles/music/Albums for Chicago Live at Symphony Hall (2015), VI Decades Live (This is What We Do) (2018), and Chicago II Live on Soundstage (2018).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.212.21.197 (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Wikipedia Articles on Chicago Albums 

message: As of July 2018, the band has removed Walter Parazaider from the Band Members Page on their official website.  Parazaider's name now  appears on a separate page on the band's website, Tribute to Founding Members.  The Founding Members page lists Parazaider along with other former members Peter Cetera, Terry Kath, and Danny Seraphine.  There are sources in the article already about his retirement from touring and of his removal from the list of band members.  Because of this, I am undoing recent edits and restoring Parazaider's name as a former member as well as removing his name as an the active member. 209.212.21.197 (talk) 18:08, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is built on WP:SECONDARY sources. A small change to the band's website is not strong enough to declare Parazaider out of the band. What's required is an explicit statement from the band. Binksternet (talk) 00:36, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

text: I reverted your recent change because you didn't include any references. If you believe the change is correct, feel free to update the Personnel section with references to reliable sources that obsolete the existing cited sources, then update the infobox. —hulmem (talk) 22:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

text: Never mind. I found an interview published July 2022, in which Lamm says there are three original "partners" in the band and the rest of the members are contracted players. I went ahead and changed "Current members", showing which ones are partners and which band members are contracted, per the interview.Curious405 (talk) 18:25, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Curious405, thanks for adding all the sources to confirm the retirement of Parazaider.  The confusion should be settled now. My only change was to remove the  year of departure on the former members, since the retirement date and year of Parazaider is not entirely clear (2017 or 2018) and Daniel de los Reyes left twice. That could be confusng. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walter Parazaider as a former band member 

message: There have been a few attempts to change the timeline to group the members by instrument rather than by the date they first joined the band.  While I could not find a standard format agreed upon for timelines, the guideline for a Musical Artist Infobox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_musical_artist) suggests listing the current and former members by date they joined the group.  By doing the same format on the timeline, we make the article consistent.  I do not feel this makes the timeline less readable.  I have changed the timeline to list the members in the order of them joining the group to retain the consistency.209.212.21.197 (talk) 19:27, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to disagree with you. Sorting by instrument rather than date has been the norm for a while, as it's more readable and makes it easier to tell what the lineup looked like at any given time. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 

message: He doesn't appear on the latest Chicago Christmas album. This leads me to believe he officially left. Kart2401real (talk) 00:29, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is based on WP:SECONDARY sources rather than analysis by Wikipedia editors. The band has not said that Parazaider is completely out, and the media are largely respecting that. Binksternet (talk) 02:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Chicago is recording a new album with songs co-written by Robert Lamm and Jim Peterik of Survivor. Parazaider probably does not play on it. I bet he officially left the band. Kart2401real (talk) 02:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did Walter Parazaider officially leave or just retire from touring? 

message: Should Walter Parazaider be removed from the list of current members? Kart2401real (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC about Walter Parazaider allegedly leaving Chicago 

message: *No, Parazaider is still considered a bandmember by the band. There has been no explicit announcement of Parazaider being kicked out of the band. In 2017, a reporter writing for the New Jersey Herald described Parazaider as having retired from touring since 2017 "but still technically belongs to the group." Nothing has changed since then. Binksternet (talk) 06:19, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The official site implies that he left the band in 2018. It was known before that site update that he retired from touring. Kart2401real (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Threaded discussion

message: Does anyone have a source saying Loren Gold has officially joined Chicago? SportsFan007 (talk) 20:39, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: There are no sources indicating Loren Gold joined the group. Also, the band has not added him to the band member page or said anything to that effect. We should hold off listing him as a member until we have a source to that effect. AbleGus (talk) 04:24, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  thank you! SportsFan007 (talk) 06:50, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Loren Gold 

message: An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect :Chicago® and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 15#Chicago® until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  BD2412 T 04:45, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Chicago®" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] 

message: A suggestion that the lead paragraph ia too long for this article has been submitted.  I think the lead is of suitable length for this article about a group active over 55 years with numerous accomplishments and accolades.  I do not think it should not be reduced, and I am against this suggestion.  
Regards, AbleGus (talk) 06:14, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. I respect your passion for the band and your probable role as the soft lead on this article. An intro should give a brief overview for those with very limited time and contain only the core of the subject. Details should be moved to the article's body. You can do it. I can too but I'd really rather prod you to do it. When it comes to intros, less is more. Reeeeet (talk) 06:33, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Upon suggestion, I removed the paragraph on the covering some of the album releases which were already adequately covered in the body of the article. I think the remaining information makes sense to keep, but let me know if you think we should trim more here. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 03:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the notice that the lead section is too long after trimming the article. AbleGus (talk) 04:02, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead Section Length (April 2022) 

message: According to the official website, Ray Herrmann joined before Walfredo Reyes, so I think we should list it that way on Wikipedia as well. SportsFan007 (talk) 18:17, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I respectfully disagree with your change proposal. While Hermann began filling in for Parazaider in 2005, we have no source stating Hermann actually joined the band prior to Walfredo Reyes. Herrman was first acknowledged as a band member in starting in 2016, and he was listed as an additional musician on the Chicago XXXVI: Now liner notes in 2014. Unless there is a reliable source stating he became a member prior to 2016, we should not use the band member listing order on their website to change it. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 03:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, thank you. SportsFan007 (talk) 04:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Member list order 

message: Yes 
 Add another sub musician, Carlos Marquio (Loren Gold sub) - X to Y change please 2603:8000:9603:B4CD:AC48:EE7C:546D:7903 (talk) 04:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 05:56, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2023 

message: Add another sub musician for Loren Gold which his name is Carlos Marquio who is subbing for Gold 2603:8000:9603:B4CD:AC48:EE7C:546D:7903 (talk) 04:18, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 05:57, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carlos Marquio (Loren Gold sub)  

message: @Curious405 @Binksternet
Perhaps we need to revisit continuing to list Parazaider as a current member. There are sources with quotes from Robert Lamm in 2022 stating that "there are only three members who are calling the shots. The rest of the band are great guys, contracted players, top-notch guys." (https://rockcellarmagazine.com/chicago-band-interview-robert-lamm-born-for-this-moment), later clarifying those partners as Lee Loughnane and James Pankow. Other sources say Parazaider "officially retired." Is that enough to recognize the 2017 statement that he "retired from touring only" as outdated, and list him as a former member in the Infobox?
RegardsAbleGus (talk) 06:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Did Lamm or Pankow or Loughnane say that Parazaider is no longer considered a band member, contradicting their earlier statements? I don't see anything like that in the news. Parazaider is retired from touring, but he may still contribute in the studio. Binksternet (talk) 06:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Lamm was very specific. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 16:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: How so? What did he say about Walter Parazaider? Binksternet (talk) 16:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: AbleGus summed it up nicely above, but there's also a link. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 21:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, no. Lamm said nothing about Parazaider not being in the band anymore. Parazaider's not even named in the link. Failed verification. Binksternet (talk) 23:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Parazaider is not even named… in a list of who Lamm defines as exactly three remaining founding members of the band including himself, Loughnane, and Pankow. It's undeniably specific. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 15:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You are pointing to the absence of something, mistaking this as an affirmation. What is absent is Parazaider specifically being named as not being in the band anymore. Lamm's statement about who is calling the shots in the band is not a statement about Parazaider being kicked out. Binksternet (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me point out the absence of something else as well: Your source calling him a current member of the band. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 21:47, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You're kidding, right? It's cited in the article. Triblive.com wrote on July 25, 2018, "Original saxophonist Walt Parazaider remains a member of Chicago, but no longer tours on a regular basis with the group." Another cite that I put in the article back in September 2018 was from The Virginian-Pilot which said, "Parazaider is still a band member and performs with the group for certain events." Binksternet (talk) 22:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Those two citations from 2018 are prior to Parazaider's Alzheimer's diagnosis in 2021.  These articles are probably as close as the band is going to get to clarify the matter: (https://riffmagazine.com/qa/robert-lamm-chicago-edm-inspired-lp-brian-wilson/) and (https://www.ajc.com/things-to-do/55-years-into-the-bands-career-chicago-still-takes-care-of-the-fans/56TLMIGEMNHN3J4ESQAND7KU7M/). Will these suffice to remove Parazaider from the current members?  If not, should we at least put a label "retired" next to his name in the members list in the Navbox and put Parazaider in a separate category from the other members in the Personnel section?  Regards, AbleGus (talk) 07:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It is enough, yes. And putting a "retired" member under the heading of "current" members is a contradiction. Remember, the purpose of that section is to list who the current members are… not who they aren't. And we source accordingly, so it doesn't matter that the source doesn't mention Parazaider *not* being in the band. It tells us who *is*. So should the article. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 15:31, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added more sources that say the same thing as the existing ones AbleGus noted. It's probably excessive and redundant, honestly, but hopefully it's helpful to confirm the point here. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 18:34, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

text: Agreed. The reference that states "Original saxophonist Walt Parazaider remains a member of Chicago, but no longer tours on a regular basis with the group" was from 2018. This does not reflect any future statements and developments that have emerged since then. Dobbyelf62 (talk) 00:20, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revisiting the status of Walter Parazaider