Talk:Surname

message: Why is this page not connected with family name or last name? (Yes, I do the the topic above; however, my question was not answered.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorchah (talk • contribs) 01:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect/combination 

message: ````142.161.57.40 (talk) 01:03, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surnames after divorce CAN THE MAN MAKE THE EX CHANGE THERE NAME BACK? 

message: Please see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 July 6#Category:Jewish surnames. Badagnani (talk) 22:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish surnames category deleted again; see discussion

message: Place it in Family name? or in Surname? or in Matrilineality?  
This new section is dependent upon a DNA presentation.  DNA is already presented in Matrilineality, but would need to be added in Family name or in Surname.  So I placed the new section in the Matrilineality article.
Also, I think adding Matrilineal surnames within Family name would muddy the latter's clear-flowing waters.  Keeping Family name a purely patrilineal article would be less confusing for readers.  For7thGen (talk) 20:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The above comment by Fjf1085 dates from before major revision work to the article, which has greatly improved the overall situation. This includes merging and so forth, such that we now have surname, family name, and last name all on one page.  That should make it easier to address the underlying consideration that something is drastically wrong in the way this article is skewed against native-speaker or Unites States English.  For today I've simply fixed the weird reference to the OED that was actually to the website OUP runs.  Perhaps this is related to the problem, as was perhaps the apparent December vandalism from 72.56.168.217 who may have been trying to address something related to Anglocentrism or who knows what.  In any event, the Fjf1085 objection remains topical.  Specifically the sentence: "In the English-speaking world, a surname is commonly referred to as a last name because it is usually placed at the end of a person's full name, after any given names" (the one vandalized) seems to beg for revision.  One might naively expect a 'surname' be referred to as a "surname," as indeed it is by a substantial minority of native speakers ;-).  There are two main reasons many Americans do not call the kind of name this article is about a surname: 1) the historical opposition of "surname" to "Christian name" as the two parts of a personal name, which makes "surname" sound oldfashioned, and 2) the other meaning of "surname" that we find in dictionaries, what we might term the Shakespearian meaning.  This second meaning is the one I would use the word for, i.e. a name like "da Vinci" or "Redbeard" or, as Ariadne55 suggests in starting this section, the second word in "Elton John."  Non-native speakers of English seem to prefer "surname" in the sense of "family name," so the older meaning is probably destined to fade, but it is instructive to note that it appeared more obsolescent to the 1930s editors of Merriam-Webster's Second Unabridged than to Gove's team on the Third in 1961.  A glance at the real OED (second edition) confirms the established nature of the byname-nickname sense as late as Tennyson.  I'll check the third edition of the real OED before attempting to rectify the issue.  However, what would mean more to me is the thoughts of some of you other editors.  I'm not sure the two I mentioned are still active.  There needs to be something in the lede to clarify between dictionary definitions 1 and 2 of surname.  If you are watching this page, please let me know how you feel about this non-synonymy problem. - phi (talk) 12:42, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Where to place a new section, Matrilineal surnames

message: At one point in this section it's talking about Uralic name order, then it disconcertingly launches into a diatribe on Sami name changes without an appropriate lead-in. It reads very copy and paste.
As I myself don't know enough about the subject matter and the only citation is a unrelated blog post in Norwegian, I would suggest that if the Sami section isn't rewritten, the paragraph should be deleted. 
Philip72 (talk) 09:34, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of names 

message: Is that external link to  really meritorious? If the page was linking to such material, there are a number of better sources. This would be better as a reference.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.64.191.207 (talk) 23:18, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Link 

message: The section on Hebrew patronymic surnames could usefully be expanded to clarify whether the similar constructions in other Semitic languages (Aramaic bar-, Arabic ibn- and bin-) are also used as surnames, or only as true patronyms. AmirOnWiki (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semitic languages 

message: Yes, some modification of [[last name] will no doubt be in order after the merger has been completed.  Another problem that will need to be addressed is the second dictionary sense of "surname," i.e. something between a nickname and a (needed) epithet.  The textbook example used by Merriam-Webster is "da Vinci" and we can add "of Arabia" and "Barbarossa" or "Redbeard" and "the Great" and "the Conqueror" to this list.  I was taught in school (in the United States) that "surname" applied in these cases and was a sort of nickname but called "surname" precisely to distinguish it from the "family name," which might be, say, Hohenstaufen.  The intro to the new article should make some allowance for this.  Initially it might link to byname.
::I'll look forward to the merged version. - phi (talk) 17:10, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Except that I no longer am looking forward to this. See comment below.- phi (talk) 19:10, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: second meaning

message: I added a link to the article on Naming Law.  (This is in addition to the link to Surname Law which exists already.)  The Naming Law article presently discusses mostly rules about what given names may be used in different countries, but some of its content may relate to surnames as well (e.g. bans on diacritical remarks in California, regulations about characters that may be used in a name).  Moreover, the Naming Law article itself should probably be expanded to reflect general rules for names that apply to both given names and surnames, especially since many parents in the U.S. (and probably elsewhere) choose to name their child with a surname that is a combination or (and different from) the surname of either parent.  [As a separate point, the articles on Naming Law and Surname Law should refer to each other and perhaps should be merged, especially since the current article on Naming Law has almost no content.  I will add notes to those articles.]--WvomSaal (talk) 17:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "See Also" section of article

message: "A surname or family name is a name added to a given name. In many cases, a surname is a family name and many dictionaries define "surname" as a synonym of "family name"." How I read this:
1. SN (=FN)= N added to GN. 
2. Often SN = FN, & many dictionaries say SN = FN.
Seems weird to me because in 1, SN=FN but then in 2, SN OFTEN = FN. 64.53.191.77 (talk) 22:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: The opening paragraph seems strange

message: * says "Name etymologists classify European surnames under five categories, depending on their origin:  given name (6), occupational name (1), location name (4,5), nickname (2), and ornamental name (3).Bowman, William Dodgson. The Story of Surnames. London, George Routledge & Sons, Ltd., 1932. No ISBN.Cottle, Basil. Penguin Dictionary of Surnames. Baltimore, MD: Penguin Books, 1967. No ISBN.  This classification can be extended to surnames originating elsewhere."
*Family name § English-speaking countries says: "Most surnames of British origin fall into seven types:"
*#Occupational name
*#Personal characteristics – this is the Nickname or Epithet type
*#Geographical features
*#Toponymic surname: Place names
*#Estate names: Territorial designation?
*#Patronymics, matronymics or ancestral, often from a person's given name
*#Patronal from patronage
* See also  – I suppose there may be other categorizations for other ethnic groups; I haven't done a thorough search
These will need some reconciliation, as there isn't a totally straightforward overlap between these. It's possible that different name etymologists (who?) will devise slightly differing classifications. Some names might fall in multiple classifications.
Getting back to the idea that a family name is "a type of surname", and there are "".
Right, John (the) Carpenter is an unmarried orphan with no relatives, and none of his genetic ancestors were ever carpenters. So the name is not a "family name", that is, until John does get married, and has a son who grows up to be a rocket scientist. Then the occupational name Carpenter has been transformed into a mere family name. As this can happen to any name, there is no such thing as a surname that is not a (potential) family name. – wbm1058 (talk) 22:39, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:   Categories, types or classifications of surnames 

message: *wikt:patrilineal: Pertaining to descent through male lines.
*wikt:patronymic: Name acquired from one's father's, grandfather's or earlier (male) ancestor's  name. Some cultures use a patronymic where other cultures use a surname or family name; other cultures (like Russia) use both a patronymic and a surname.
See Patronymic surname. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:42, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patrilineal vs. Patronymic 

message: *wikt:matrilineal: Tracing descent only through female lines. See Matrilineal surname (Matriname)
*wikt:matronymic: A surname or byname acquired from the  name of one's mother's or from a female ancestor's  name. See Matronymic surname.
Hmm, List of people who adopted matronymic surnames. Shouldn't that be List of people who adopted matrilineal surnames? wbm1058 (talk) 21:44, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matrilineal vs. Matronymic 

message: *I have completed merging the most important content of Family name to Surname, per the consensus above.
*The remaining content of Family name has been restructured and moved to Surnames by country. This was too much to fit comfortably on a single page. This is in conformance with Wikipedia:Summary style.
*The former Family name talk page is now at Talk:Surnames by country.
*While doing this complex reorganization, I filled in a few gaps with the help of "A Dictionary of Surnames", the Hanks & Hodges book, which I checked out from my local library. – wbm1058 (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family name merged to surname 

message: In Japan and Hong Kong (China), when people of Japanese or Hong Kong Chinese origin, respectively, write their personal name in the Latin alphabet, it is common to reverse the order of the given and family names for the convenience of Westerners. Hungarians do the same when interacting with other Europeans. Reversing the order of names is also somewhat common in Estonian and Finnish, which are Uralic languages like Hungarian.
In Japan and Hong Kong (China), when people of Japanese or Hong Kong Chinese origin, respectively, write their personal name in the Latin alphabet, it is common to reverse the order of the given and family names for the convenience of Westerners. Hungarians do the same when interacting with other Europeans. Reversing the order of names is also customary for the Baltic Fennic peoples and the But other Uralic peoples didn't need surnames, because of the clanic structure of their societies. Surnames have been imposed by the dominant authorities: evangelists, then administrations. Thus, the Samis saw no change or a transformation of their name, for example: some Sire became Siri Guttorm, Jáhkoš-Ásslat  became Aslak Jacobsen Hætta and the Hungarians — as it was the norm until recently, when integration into the EU and accelerated international exchanges pushed many people to reverse the order of their full name to given name - surname, so that they are not called Ms. Rauha (a first name), just like Japanese, some Koreans, Chinese or some Vietnamese do, for the same reason.
In Japan and Hong Kong (China), when people of Japanese or Hong Kong Chinese origin, respectively, write their personal name in the Latin alphabet, it is common to reverse the order of the given and family names for the convenience of Westerners. Hungarians do the same when interacting with other Europeans. Reversing the order of names is also customary for the Baltic Fennic peoples and the Hungarians, but other Uralic peoples didn't need surnames, because of the clanic structure of their societies. Surnames have been imposed by the dominant authorities: evangelists, then administrations. Thus, the Samis saw no change or a transformation of their name, for example: some Sire became Siri, Guttorm,  Hætta Jáhkoš Ásslat became Aslak Jacobsen Hætta — as it was the norm until recently, when integration into the EU and accelerated international exchanges pushed many people to reverse the order of their full name to given name - surname, so that they are not called Ms. Rauha (a first name), just like Japanese, some Koreans, Chinese or some Vietnamese do, for the same reason.
When those from Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong write their personal name in the Latin alphabet, it is common to reverse the order of the given and family names for the convenience of Westerners, so that they know which name is the family name for official/formal purposes. Reversing the order of names for the same reason is also customary for the Baltic Fennic peoples and the Hungarians, but other Uralic peoples traditionally did not have surnames, perhaps because of the clan structure of their societies. Surnames have been imposed by the dominant authorities: evangelists, then administrations. Thus, the Samis saw no change or a transformation of their name. For example: some Sire became Siri,Guttorm Hætta Jáhkoš Ásslat became Aslak Jacobsen Hætta — as was the norm. Recently, integration into the EU and increased communications with foreigners prompted many Samis to reverse the order of their full name to given name followed by surname, to avoid their given name being mistaken for and used as a surname.
I'm still having trouble parsing this. It seems like too much detail for this level. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:02, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: So, just wait wait long enough and a vandal will sort it out for you! Thanks, 2600:6C5A:4C7F:FF31:D519:A4B5:64F7:563A. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:00, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorting out an old addition 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Zapatero or Lorca, for example, are mentioned by their second surname without saying their first name. “Federico Lorca” or “José Luis Zapatero” wouldn’t be used. Ibn Gabirol (talk) 15:39, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  José Luis Zapatero 

message: "The meanings of some names are unknown or unclear. The most common European name in this category may be the Irish name Ryan, which means 'little king' in Irish Gaelic.[31][34] Also, Celtic origin of the name Arthur, meaning 'bear'"   This needs to be clarified. It says some names' meanings are unknown then proceeds to give examples of such names and what they mean ?? Venqax (talk) 20:23, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear or Unknown Meaning 

message: Ayers is a company of organic farming setup in 1934 Murthy412 (talk) 19:13, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ayers 

message: This section of the article a) has little citations and b) only includes a few subjectively-chosen ethnic groups. I assume this section of the article was created to list surnames of non-dominant ethnic groups who don't have their common surnames under "Common Surnames of [insert country/continent here] articles or sections. But, I think this section should either be: split up and moved to other articles (e.g. move Tibetan surnames under China, and Assyrian to Asia/Middle East), created into its own article, or just deleted. 
Mrpants106 (talk) 05:50, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Common Surnames by Ethnic Group 

message: I put a lot of hours into cleaning this article up, and then this joker 64.110.241.161 comes along and triggers an earthquake @15:54, 4 January 2019.
Was that vandal reverted?? No, their edit was endorsed @06:28, 28 February 2019! Sigh, wbm1058 (talk) 19:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  You stop watching this for a while, and all hell breaks loose! 

message: An editor insists of the usage of the term "technonymic surname" instead of "occupational surname" as section title. I find it dubious that "Cook" or "Fisher" may be called technonyms. In any case, this usage must be extremely rare and cannot be used as tht main term in wikipedia, since Google search does not give valid references (the term is used in other meanings, it particular commonly as a typo for "teknonym", see eg ). 
The editor provides the reference " Cottle, Basil. Penguin Dictionary of Surnames. Baltimore, MD: Penguin Books, 1967" Please provide the exact citation from this book, since it is not visible.  Lembit Staan (talk) 17:30, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technonym 

message: Inside the compound section, should we add info about Quebec compound surnames (Canadian name) ? Bohemien100 (talk) 16:15, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quebec surnames