Talk:Avalon Hill

message: Chris Nadeau says Avalon Hill is not a subsidiary of Hasbro but is accurately considered an imprint of Hasbro Gaming.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.56.97 (talk) 16:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsidiary?

message: Didn't Avalon Hill also pioneer the concept of using a hexagonal grid?  I seem to recall (and this is totally off the top of my head, so I could be wrong) that the very first Avalon Hill wargame used a square grid, but it was realized that this posed too many problems with movement and other issues, so the idea of the hexagon was introduced.  Does anyone know if this is true? soulpatch
: I just looked at the Hasbro page, and it does mention that Tactics used a square grid, but it doesn't mention whether Charles Roberts came up with the idea of using a hexagon for subsequent games or not.  soulpatch
If I remember correctly, yes, the first wargame to use hexes was James Dunnigan's Jutland game for AH.  If anyone has access to Dunnigan's book, Complete Handbook to Wargames, it should confirm this.  Unfortunately, I don't have access to the book right now...
--patton1138 16:39, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't seem right to me.  Also not having looked at the book, but going from memory... the first AH game I played (c. 1965) was Afrika Korps and it definitely had a hexagonal grid.  I know that I was playing that and other hexagonal games when I received a promo mailing (or maybe an article in The General) about the impending publication of Jutland (which our chronology lists as coming out in 1967).  In sum, I'm quite prepared to believe it was Dunnigan's invention, but it was introduced before Jutland.  Incidentally, I've never played Gettysburg, but I vaguely remember reading at some point that it was being switched from hexagonal to something else (presumably square).  I think there was an article about the change in The General.  For some reason the subheadline "Hex Version Was Hexed" sticks in my mind. JamesMLane 17:18, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, now that you bring dates into the matter, it doesn't seem right...   The dates are correct, btw.  Man, I wish I had that book on-hand.  I think I can find it in the library if I remember to look.  I know the original Gettysburg was on squares, but don't remember about Afrika Korps.  --patton1138 17:38, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

text:  According to The Complete Book of Wargames by Jon Freeman, the D-Day of 1961 was the first to use hexes - Roberts was supposed to have gotten the idea from Rand Corporation somehow. Stan 18:34, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yeah, I've heard the Rand Corporation story before (don't mean 'story' as in lack of veracity).  I found an on-line version of Dunnigan's book.  But on a quick scan, it's missing the story that I remember; must've been somewhere else I read it.  The story went along the lines of whoever playing games on their college dorm bathroom's hexagon tiled floor. --patton1138 01:35, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Hexagonal grid pioneer?

message: I don't really think Avalon Hill should be listed as a "Defunct companies" (category).  It is now a brand of Hasbro.  So, in a way, it's still around.
 — Frecklefoot | Talk 22:52, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
:The corporation is defunct, which is what would be suggested to me by the phrase "defunct companies."  I'm not sure about the "computer companies" listing, though.  Did AH make any computer games? JamesMLane 08:02, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: More than one I think - there was a computer 3rd Reich and others that I remember. A "brand of Hasbro" qualifies as defunct company I'd say - a non-defunct company would have an executive, a finance department, etc. Stan 16:28, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: They had a large (in number of products) 'Microcomputer Games' line at the end of the '70s/beginning of the '80s including such titles as Midway Campaign, Empire of the Overmind, and Voyage of the Space Beagle.  I think they went through several cycles of developing a line of games, and then dumping it as computers moved past the level of games they were doing.  It has been mentioned (I have no idea if there is any reality to the idea) that Hasbro largely bought AH to get the successful Achtung Spitfire! and Over the Reich games.  Rindis 20:49, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There was also the videogame division (AHVGC) which released several thoroughly unsuccessful Atari 2600 cartridges.David Duncan Scott 21:01, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Defunct?

message: I've seen reference to the game "Class Struggle", with note that it  was an Avalon Hill game, but can't actually find the game anywhere to find out if this is correct. Anyone else know? -FZ 00:01, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It was originally created by Bertell Ollman, a Marxist professor.  I know that at first he was publishing it himself.  He had originally intended just to make a few sets for friends and students, but it proved very popular, so he wanted to make more available and got in over his head with the self-publishing.  He then wrote a book about the whole experience, Class Struggle Is the Name of the Game: True Confessions of a Marxist Businessman .  From what I've read (summaries and reviews of the book), it wouldn't be at all implausible that, after a brief taste of the entrepreneurial life, he sold the rights to the game to AH or some other company.  I find a couple online references to it as an AH game, such as Board Game Geek.  Beyond that I can't confirm. JamesMLane 00:32, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

text: 80s sounds about right.  That's the year that it started showing up in AH catalogs that came with AH games.  And believe me, I've got quite a few of those things! --patton1138 11:43, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  another game 

message: Would anyone mind if we separate, in the listing, the games that were published post-Hasbro from those published pre-Hasbro?  Not only would it better represent the shift in marketing and target audience during this time, but will also help answer any questions regarding which games were from which incarnation.  If no one objects within 24 hours, I'll make the proper modifications to the page. --patton1138 19:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a good idea. Stan 20:49, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

text: One thing that would be handy in the game list is a brief phrase summarizing the theme/subgenre (ASL would be "WWII tactical" perhaps). Many of the names are cryptic, especially for nongamers reading this article. Stan 18:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea.  For some of the more common genres, we may want to enumerate them here first, lest we have ten different labels for the same thing. --patton1138 20:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classic AH v. New AH 

message: The link for "Republic of Rome" is directed to a historical page rather than one for the game. Sawatts 20:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Errata 

message: Hi - I put these in, and User:Frecklefoot took them out.  I sympathise - if they weren't necessary I'd rather not have them, but they are necessary for the A-Z links to work.  Without them, the links to (e.g.) "D" will always go to the original Avalon Hill "D", regardless of whether you click on the original D or the Hasbro D.  Percy Snoodle 14:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  (original) and (hasbro) in A-Z subsections 

message: Though this is a little late in the game, per the discussion above, I created the Avalon Hill category. Feel free to add it to any Avalon Hill-related articles you come across or create. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Avalon Hill category

message: Over its life, AH published a goodly number of computer games. These are pretty much unrepresented, except for the occasional Achtung Spitfire! edit conflict. I'm thinking we might want to give those their own list (presumably on the new list page...) to prevent confusion with AH's much better known non-computer game lines.
Heck, do we want to go into the various imprints, like the Sports Illustrated line they had? --Rindis 16:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Computer Games 

message: Squad Leader is not mentioned in an AH article?!? Dominick (TALK) 03:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's right here, but it would be good to have in mentioned in the prose as well. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Squad leader and follow on? 

message: I agree with the current entry's description of AH in past-tense terms, and I think that it should remain unchanged.  The 60s purchase by Monarch left the company's game line and purpose largely unchanged, but the 90s purchase by Hasbro changed things massively (i.e. essentially destroyed them and turned the company name into a mere boxtop logo).  While the "Avalon Hill" name may live on, it no longer represents what it once did at all, and I think that the current past-tense phrasing reflects this perfectly. – WendellM 16:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it is standard Wikipedia convention to write in past tense - since changing tense throughout an article is confusing, and writing in the present tense is usually not encyclopedic. But your right, AH is really no longer in existence except in name only. -- Stbalbach 16:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Past Tense 

message: The article tells when Hasbro bought the AH IP, but not when Hasbro put the AH operation under Wizards of the Coast. Kind of an important transition. Isaac R (talk) 03:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  When Wizard? 

message: Another AH product that seems to be missing from this article, the accompanying template, and any mention in Wikipedia at all, is their 1971 product Luftwaffe.  BSVulturis (talk) 05:14, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  More missing games 

message: I've upped this article to C class.  It could use a little more detailed history and assiduous citations, but I think it could make B class pretty easily.
It's a topic that deserves GA/FA treatment. :) --Neopeius (talk) 00:56, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  C class 

message: Certainly as of 10th January 2022, the current image shown as Avalon Hill's logo is no longer current.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sslaxx (talk • contribs) 11:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That was the logo when it was a company. Any new logos would be brand logos as part of another company. The question is which is more important for the article. I kind of prefer the company logo since most people know AH from its days as a company. --  GreenC 17:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Logo for Avalon Hill 

message: This article lists Tactics II as Avalon Hill's first published game and cites an article in The Urbanite magazine and an About.com article. However, Avalon Hill's own newsletter/magazine, The General, states that Gettysburg was their first published game.
From The Avalon Hill General, Volume 1, No. 1:
"Incorporated in 1958 Avalon Hill's first games were Gettysburg, Tactics II and Dispatcher (chronological appearance on the market for each game is indicated by the code number printed on the box; Gettysburg - 501, Tactics II - 502, etc.)."
I wanted to bring this up on the Talk page for discussion prior to editing the entry. EvaUnit02 (talk) 21:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: The about.com source should be deleted entirely, it gets a number of things wrong, is not a reliable source, and it doesn't say Tactics II was the first game. The Urbanite also does not say Tactics II was the first game. So basically this claim is unverified and unsourced. Your source The General is very clear, Gettysburg was the first game to market, for the newly incorporated company. -- GreenC 22:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avalon Hill's First Published Game 

message: This article states (without a source) the company was founded in 1952. Maybe, but recall that Roberts began designing the game in 1952, and did not publish it until 1954, at which time he used a professional distributor and printer. He had no finished product in 1952, it's unclear the company was founded at the time. In fact he initially made the game as a self-teaching tool while he waited to be admitted into the armed forces - this background has yet to be added anywhere on wikipedia but can be sourced.  -- GreenC 16:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  1952 start?