Talk:Absinthe/Archive 1

message: Vermouth is also made with wormwood (specifically, the flowers IIRC), and the word "vermouth" itself comes from a word for "wormwood."
I have also read that vermouth contains a good deal of thujone. It is also, of course, legal. This would seem to invalidate much of the comments about legality in the US, at least the reasoning.--The Fay
Chartreuse is in the category, too.  One would assume that the heavy hand of regulation has not come down on these drinks because there have never been any real or imagined problems associated with them. ZacharyS 16:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about vermouth? 

message: From Wikipedia:Translation into English:
*Article:  :fr:Absinthe
*Corresponding English-language article: Artemisia absinthium
*Worth doing because: Material to incorporate into English-language article
* Originally Requested by: 80.160.122.64 00:43, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation 

message: In the "Polemic" section the following sentence appears:
"More recent studies have shown that very little of the thujone present in absinthe actually makes it into a properly distilled absinthe, even one re-created using historical recipes and methods, so much so that a recent French distiller has had to add pure wormwood essential oil to make a "high-thujone" variant of his product to cater to those who still want to believe that thujone is an important ingredient in absinthe."
The "those who still want to believe" snark is not NPOV.  What should it say instead?  --AStanhope 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the suggestion...  I nixed all text after "product."  --AStanhope 20:24, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a source for this?  I don't dispute it, but I'm curioous since I've seen "high thujone" absinthe that purports traditional recipes.  --Morbid-o 17:35, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Adjustment Needed 

message: There should probably be something about the circumstances leading to absinthe being banned in
the USA. As I remember reading, absinthe was never popular in the early 20th century USA, but the
administration of William Howard Taft thought that by banning absinthe, the prohibitionist 
groups such as the Woman's Christian Temperance Union would be appeased enough to the 
point that they would no longer demand any prohibition of all alcoholic beverages. As it were, 
this strategy failed spectacularly.
:I like the idea, but it would need a source.  --Morbid-o 20:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Besides, the temperance folks were upset about a slightly different issue - a huge proportion of American men drank large quantities of whiskey on a daily basis, and the banning of absinthe would not have affected this practice. ZacharyS 16:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Banning of absinthe in the USA

message: Thanks for the GSP corrections.  I removed "many connoisseurs believe" from the section about Hill's because it's not just a belief by connoisseurs.  Absinthe is an anise based liquor and Hill's doesn't contain anise.  It's only connection with traditional absinthe is that it contains wormwood.  Ari 04:36, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me, although I think that should be explained in the article, otherwise it just looks like an unsupported nonsequitur. Thanks! · Katefan0(scribble) 04:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  1990's and absinthe 

message: 213.2.69.59 I removed the link because of inaccurate information.  I'm sure I look like the link nazi to some but I think it's important that the external links contain accurate and additional information or understanding and keep wikipedia as commercially neutral as possible.  This way viewers can find out more about absinthe with a minimum amount of clicking and surfing.
I removed the link because there is some inaccurate information on that site, such as the claim linking thujone with THC.  The FAQ seems to be taken from an older La Fee FAQ and there is no new information besides the existence of the absinthium Dunelm group.
If the inaccurate information was removed it might be reasonable to include the absinthium Dunelm group page on the external links, although an explanation by you as to why it should be included would be nice.Ari 09:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Absinthium Dunelm, External links 

message: Why is there a picture of Kylie Minogue?
:I believe it explains in the article she played the green fairy in a recent film so there is a picture of her in the popular culture section. Ari 17:37, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kylie Minogue?  

message: I think the Arnold-Breaux disagreement ought to be covered in Controversy, with Arnold's "260 parts per million of alpha-thujone" vs. Breaux's as little as 5 ppm in original absinthe. I'll write it at some point, but if someone is more familiar with the details right off... There's the Wired article, and I don't have the SciAm article (I put it in further reading), but there's this for Arnold. --Tsavage 01:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although maybe worth a mention there isn't a real disagreement.  Arnold (and others) numbers are based on an old estimation based on how much wormwood was used and what percentage of it was thujone.  They assumed that all the thujone in wormwood ended up in the bottle.  Breaux (and others) data are based on GCMS tests on vintage absinthe and modern absinthe made from vintage recipes.  Breaux's numbers are the update to the older estimations, showing them incorrect.  I'll bring over the two citations in thujone into the controversy section. Ari 01:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, that's why I was checking here. The way it was written up in Wired kinda made it sound like those figures may still be considered current (though not if you read it closely). I'm not an absinthe fan or anything, just got interested in this article. But I'm in Ontario, so there's apparently absinthe around... --Tsavage 01:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Glad you have an interest in the article, you can fix POV and grammar errors from the absinthe fans. :) Ari 01:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't mind being the waterboy until I get my first bottle... We're looking, I think it's a special order item around here... --Tsavage 02:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More detail on thujone content controversy

message: Do we really need this here? This is a short-term issue and having it here really shows a lack of any historical perspective. It also plays into the hands of the anti-absinthe community. I don't want to offend anyone by removing it, but really ..
Alanmoss 07:23, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia does include current events as well as history and it seems to be big/hyped enough to have 'experts' talking about it on national tv.  When/if it blows over I think it can be edited down to a mention instead of a large section.  Ari 15:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I agree with Ari x. The section right now seems unduly long, and I just noticed the "Cruise Mystery" subheading, which does focus even more attention, however, "we do stay current" on WP, so it makes sense for right now. If this fades away, I think the only lasting notability and interest is in how that one particular wire service story obviously deliberated reconstructed exactly the old scare using old and current material and quotes, without being technically wrong. So the essence of that story itself would have to be captured in a brief paragraph or two. --Tsavage 15:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added the header as it didn't flow well going right from unbanning in many countries to the mystery.  Ari 15:45, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cruise Mystery

message: There has been some cross-editing of the categories here, with the last one only adding 'Liqueurs' as category.
I propose to put it under alcoholic beverages too in fact, since absinthe is famous enough to be classified there, and it is in fact (highly) alcoholic.
Furthermore, its bitter nature, and often limited sugar content do not put it in the same class as most other liqueurs which are heavy sweetened LHOON
Sorry, I disagree. Absinthe is not a liqueur which indicates a minimum sugar level.
Alanmoss 15:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Categories

message: I have added an external link to a page showing how French-style absinthe should be served. This page has been stripped of all normal commercial messages, so I hope that other editors agree that it is a useful link (people need educating into how to prepare absinthe) without being overly commercial. Alanmoss 16:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Serving Link

message: I'm not sure why the image of the decanter in the United States section was replaced with a poster from Switzerland, but I've switched it back. The poster has nothing to do with the U.S., and the decanter photo is the only one in the whole article that actually shows what absinthe looks like (as opposed to paintings, labels on bottles, etc). Kafziel 19:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good, and makes much more sense. Kafziel 20:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Considering the bright green glow my guess would be it's artificially colored and not exactly what absinthe looks like.  I replaced it with the swiss poster critizing the ban in the regulations section because although the US isn't Switzerland they are one of the few countries that still bans absinthe, so I figured an antique poster critizing the ban was more appropriate than a nice looking but non descript bottle of artificially colored absinthe. Ari 01:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know to comment on "authentic" coloring, but it does looks like a glo-stick poured into a...decanter. And the image isn't very good, like a prize snapshot from someone's den. --Tsavage 02:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not artificially colored. I think the extreme color and the fuzziness are due to the crystal decanter. It was hard to get the lighting and flash right without washing it out (which is also why I had to move it from my bar to a shelf on a hutch). I just figured it would be good to have at least one shot of actual absinthe, rather than the 100th foreign art poster or impressionist painting. I might see if I can improve the lighting and/or put it into a different container to get a more natural look and upload a new version. I'm a beer and whiskey man myself, so this isn't the most important topic to me, and if anyone else can take a better photo of some absinthe in a glass (without sugar) they can feel free to replace this one and save me the trouble. Kafziel 05:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The crystal decanter probably did bounce the light around quite a bit.  What brand it is (I'm going to take a stab and say Jade, probably Ed, as there are few naturally colored commercial vertes with any real green color too them).  Having a picture of absinthe is probably a good idea, I may get around to taking one (don't quote me on that).  Ari 05:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  US images 

message: I would like to begin a discussion regarding the current sites listed in the External Links area of the Absinthe page.
Why we are here.  On March 22, I discovered the Wikipedia Absinthe - External Links page. It currently lists five sites that offer links and information about commercial absinthe products.  In fact, all five site listed are known to have close business relationships, share common links and promote common products. 
On March 22, I added an external link to a site that provides information about absinthe. It is a site that has some similarities to the other sites yet it also provides a more complete list of the different products being produced around the world.
In my opinion, it is not the content that is in question. What is in question is whether or not sites with ties to commercial products are allowed.  And if they are allowed, then my entry should be permitted, as well as others. If not, then all the sites currently listed should be removed.
I would like to point out that giving a web site a fancy name that includes words like "organization", "society", and "museum" that promotes products and offers links to commercial sites is no different than a site that send links to a sponsor's site.  In fact, I think that it is more reputable to have links to an acknowledged sponsor's site, then to hide behind fancy names that could be considered misleading.  Especially when the current listed sites have close business relationships.
In closing, I want to acknowlege that I find no fault in web sites working together and having business relationships.  I do find fault when they work together to censor and restrict others from expressing a different opinion in this type of format.
I open the floor up for comments:
----
I don't see anything wrong with sites having business relationships or having user reviews and recommendations.
I don't think a list with no other information is very useful.  Currently the buyersguide contains only pictures and a recommendation to visit their sponsor to learn more.  Which breaks down to empty advertising.
Ties to commercial products are allowed, it's blatant sponsorship especially with no useful information that is a problem.
There is a very big difference between recommendations and sponsorship. Feeverte, wormwood society, absinthe.se make NO money on their recommendations and provide reviews about the products.  Oxygenee does make money (I think) on the commercial product he is linked to which is not sponsored on the Museum page (part of the reason for linking to it and not the main site).  Sorry but there is a very big difference between those and the buyersguide.  To further kill the idea of a conspiracy, ALL commercial products have been openly criticized on both Feeverte and the Wormwood society with no censorship.
None of these groups have done anything to restrict others from expressing a different opinion especially on wikipedia.  Although I am a forum member I am not afiliated with any sites and make no money from any of them.  Kafziel is an even more unbiased wikipedia member.
I posted further explanation on your (Owl2hagrid) talk page, if you want I can copy it here too.  Ari 03:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links Discussions 

message: Outstanding work. Keep improving it and let me know when it comes up for featured status. savidan(talk) (e@) 04:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: GA

message: Have just come back to the site to see multiple uses of "louché," instead of "louche." As an absinthe salesman and a French scholar, I have never heard this word before. In French, such a word would be pronounced "louchay." It's wrong! As further evidence, try a google site search of absintheonline.com or eabsinthe.com Lots of references to "louche;" none to "louché." Any objections to changing all these uses of "louché" back to "louche?" Alanmoss 02:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, I've also only seen it without the accent. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 02:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Ok, I noticed I still had the text file up, so find and replace all made quick work of that demonic slash.  :) Ari 02:29, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Louche or louché

message: ....about an art and literature section?  Lots of absintheurs, historically, were creative sorts.  I've got an entire book about absinthe in art in particular.  I think the article would be greatly enhanced by some sort of look at absinthe as it relates to art and literature.  I'll have to look into putting something together. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 02:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is an art and literature section which I just added a little bit too, but it's quite sparse.  I think a much improved section would be great.  Ari 02:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What do y'all think... 

message: I do agree with Ari's comments that the timeline proposed from the Sebor site is quite sparse. This one is probably more detailed:- 
http://www.eabsinthe.com/absinthe-the-absinthe-story.htm 
but I do not necessarily propose it as an alternative (also too many commercial messages!). Alanmoss 19:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Timeline 

message: I'm hesitant to have an image of a single product on the main absinthe page, as the page has been targeted in the past by vendors and general arguments and I would like to keep everything as vendor/product neutral as possible.  Although an image of the original design Eiffel tower bottle style of "Hills" might be appropriate as it is basically what started the modern revival.  The la fee bohemian bottle might be better on the La Fée Absinthe page. -- Ari 01:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, it shouldn't be here. There are enough other photos of absinthe on the page; this photo is copyrighted, and it's a bit of stretch to call it "fair use" when it's not really needed. Kafziel 03:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bohemian bottle image

message: The source given for the fire-ritual is a forum post by Alan Moss (who posts here as well) who has knowledge from and contact with the Hills company, there is also no historical evidence of the fire-ritual.  I've heard anecdotal evidence of absinthe being set-onfire inbetween the ban and revival (as is expected someone would do with any high proof liquor) but it was in the 90s that it was suggested as the "traditional" way to prepare the drink. --Ari 18:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A forum post is not an authoritative source of course. --Lysytalk 09:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia says a bulletin board post isn't acceptable specifically because we don't know who posted it, however in this case we do.  I don't see why a source should be invalid just because of the medium the person decided to use.  However if you would like me to add another source there is this one WS On Fire and Absinthe that provides a little bit of information (using web archive because the current frames don't allow direct linking) or FV What about setting the sugar on fire?. --Ari 16:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was primarily concerned that Alan Moss was professionally involved in absinthe commercial market as Hills competitor, therefore his opinion potentially could be not neutral. However I understand that this was not the case. Thanks. --Lysytalk 17:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Authorative sources

message: In the section "Controversy" we find the following sentence:  "Tests on mice show an LD50 of around 45 mg thujone per kg of body weight..." Because it is very possible that a reader might not know what "LD50" is, it might be useful to change the passage to something such as "... especially when the plant stems are used, where thujone content is the highest. A common test to gauge the toxicity of chemicals is "LD50" (Lethal Dose 50,) which is the dosage that proves fatal to 50% of the subjects receiving that dosage.  Tests on mice show an LD50 of around 45 mg thujone per kg of body weight...."
OR something like this: "... especially when the plant stems are used, where thujone content is the highest. Tests on mice show an LD50 of around 45 mg thujone per kg of body weight (FOOTNOTE 15), much higher than what is contained in absinthe. The high alcohol would kill a person many times over before the thujone became a danger. (LD50 (Lethal Dose 50) is a standard test to gauge the toxicity of chemical compounds, and is the dosage which proves lethal to 50% of the subjects receiving it.)" Well it is not that these are the only ways to work a definition into the article, as it could also, for example, be put it a footnote, but I think that it should be explained.
:I agree. LD50 is jargon. Antonrojo 12:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification or Explanation of "LD50" in the section "Controversy"

message: This is a response to the edit with the following summary: 'rvt, incorrect information. Purchase and consumption are seperate activities and one does not make the other illegal. It is also incorrect that vintage absinthe is considered unsafe'
This was the edit which clarified that while consumption in the US is legal, there are very few cases where it is (in other words de facto illegal):
"although since private and commerical distillation as well as shipping of absinthe are illegal, the only way to legally consume absinthe in the US is to drink 'vintage absinthe' produced before the ban which is generally not considered safehttp://www.absinthebuyersguide.com/faq.html"
My point here is that while consumption is not specifically prohibited in the US, in fact it is very difficult or unlikely for the following reasons:
# absinthe was banned in the US in 1915
# it is currently illegal to ship in absinthe and to distill it either as a company or otherwise
# any absinthe in the US currently is either 'vintage', smuggled in or distilled illegally
# vintage absinthe is rare and expensive (more so in the US than in Europe) 
If I'm missing a possibility I'd be interested...I don't know the fine points or loopholes of the law. 
Regarding whether vintage absinthe is safe, at least it is likely that it doesn't comply with current EU restrictions :)Antonrojo 18:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absinthe's ban in the US stems from two regulations, the FDA regulation on thujone and the customs regulation banning the importation of 'absinthe'.  Thus importation of absinthe is not 'illegal' per-say, just not allowed, which is why those trying to import it only get their bottles confiscated as opposed to being arrested.  The difference between importation and consumption or possession is important.  Although it is against regulations for Bob to import absinthe, there is no law or regulation that says Fred can't have a glass of Bob's absinthe.  (This is different from scheduled drugs where possession and importation are both illegal).  There is a good chance a lot of the vintage being sold today (such ad Eduard pernod, Pernod fils, or Tarragona), as rare as it is to find, fits within EU regulations.  Tests on vintage absinthe show thujone levels are within EU regulations and many top companies were known to use good quality all natural ingredients and proper distillation techniques. -- Ari 18:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Absinthe was specifically banned in in 1915 before the 18th ammendment.  That ban has since been superseded by FDA regulations.  True absinthe is not legally available for sale in the US.  Absente is often mistaken for actual absinthe and sold that way.  Although Absinthe is banned, customs being busy with larger issues and agents not always knowing about the regulations makes seizures spotty.  -- Ari 14:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The article already has a mention "According to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, "The importation of Absinthe and any other liquors or liqueurs that contain Artemisia absinthium is prohibited."[23] This runs contrary to FDA regulations, which allow Artemisia species in foods or beverages, but those that contain Artemisia species, white cedar, oak moss, tansy or Yarrow, must be thujone free.[24]" and as said there is no actually regulation that states what Customs claims. --Ari 14:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification of legality of consumption in US needed?

message: I'm a native German speaker. Absinth is a male noun, thus it should be hausgemachter absinth. Hausgemacht absinthe is grammatically incorrect. Also, absinthe isn't a German word, while absinth is. Why not consistently use the spelling absinth in the article, as the English dictionary accepts both spellings? 
My suggestion, change all uses of absinthe to absinth. Then change all hausgemacht absinth to hausgemachter absinth. JSTR 01:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting info, although as a term in the 'underground' absinthe world as well as the connotations of absinthe vs absinth (see bohemian section) "Hausgemacht absinthe" is accurate in the english article even though it's improper German grammar. -- Ari 01:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just for nitpicking from another native speaker - it would be Absinth (capitalized) in German, and if printed on a product label, the adjective "hausgemachter" would commonly be capitalized, too -> Hausgemachter Absinth. Actually, if you swap the words of the original spelling around ("Absinth, Hausgemacht") it'd be correct, too. (And boy am I happy I did not have to learn German at school. :-) ) 212.149.48.44 11:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct, it should be "Hausgemachter Absinth" or "Absinth, Hausgemacht." JSTR 18:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the point that Ari was trying to make is that "Hausgemacht" has become a common term in English speaking Absinthe communities, therefore it is now used as an English adjective, despite its obvious German root. AndrewT 18:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I concede. It's probably best the article remains unchanged with regard to this aspect. JSTR 19:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hausgemacht absinthe 

message: "Tests on mice show an LD50 of around 45 mg thujone per kg of body weight, much higher than what is contained in absinthe and the high amount of alcohol would kill a person many times over before the thujone became a danger" - this really needs a cite, since it's not self-evident from the discussion here.
Based on the numbers presented here, even going with a high-end concentration of 35mg thujone per litre and a low-end alcohol concentration, you'd have to drink about 60 times the LD50 of alcohol before managing to drink the LD50 of thujone. But LD50 isn't the end of the story; some things persist longer than others. If thujone is eliminated more slowly than alcohol, it would be quite possible for regular thujone consumption to reach dangerous levels without approaching the LD50 of alcohol. --Calair 06:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would need to look it up but I believe the cited study that used mice gave a passing mention of elimination time, which appears to be rather quick.  It also mentions ethanol can offer protective effects against LD100 doses of thujone.  -- Ari 07:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Although it doesn't list the time it takes, it does say thujone is rapidly detoxified -- Ari 07:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Toxicity

message: I'd just like to say that this is an absolutely beautiful article, probably one of the best FAs at the moment. It got me reading the whole way, and contains a wealth of interesting information. Congratulations to all involved!  Ronline ✉ 11:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto. ed g2s • talk 14:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excellent article 

message: What about a see also list including for example La Fée Absinthe and Absinthe spoon?
:Those are already mentioned and linked to in the body of the article. "See also" sections should not have duplicate links. Kafziel 12:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also 

message: This is also drunk by several people in the comedy Eurotrip, and this movie also features a green fairy. Jon 13:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's mentioned in the Movies and TV section already. Thanks! Kafziel 13:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  In movies 

message: As with many Wikipedia articles with a "cultural impact" section, this one is starting to turn into a list of every song, painting, movie, book and post-card that ever mentioned absinthe. This is not actually encyclopedic, though it is exhaustive.
The tactic taken in many articles has been to write something like this:
Cultural impact
----
:Main article: Absinthe in popular culture
The legacy of absinthe as a mysterious, addictive, and mind-altering drink continues to this day. Absinthe has been seen or featured in fine art, movies, video, music and literature. The modern absinthe revival has had an effect on its portrayal. It is often shown as an unnaturally glowing green liquid which is set on fire before drinking, even though traditionally neither is true.
Historical
Numerous artists and writers living in France during the late 19th and early 20th centuries were noted absinthe drinkers and featured absinthe in their works. These include Vincent Van Gogh, Manet, Guy de Maupassant and Toulouse-Lautrec. Later authors and artists would draw from this cultural well including Picasso, Oscar Wilde and Ernest Hemingway.
Modern
The mystery and illicit quality surrounding the popular view of absinthe has played into modern music, movies and television shows. These depictions vary in their authenticity, often applying dramatic license to depict the drink as everything from aphrodisiac to poison.
This is only an example, but note the lack of modern examples, and the avoidance of specific examples in the historical section. These specifics can go into the sub-article, so that the lack of someone's favorite example here doesn't tempt them (as strongly) to enter unnecessary trivia. -Harmil 14:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea.  Before the front page I did a slight clean up (not every song that says the word absinthe needs to be listed) and was planning to clean it up again once the edits return to normal, however a subpage is a better idea.  It would also allow an expansion of historical examples without ballooning the article.  -- Ari 14:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. I'm going to go ahead and do it now - this is out of control! Kafziel 15:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I guess it's just formating differences, wouldn't an absinthe subpage like absinthe/popular_culture fit better, or is there wiki issues (like search) that would be affected? -- Ari 15:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Subpages like that aren't allowed in the main space, since this is content that is intended to be a permanent part of the encyclopedia. Kafziel 15:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pop culture 

message: Since Absinthe as a topic is apparently split into multiple articles, including Absinthe and Absinthe in popular culture, I created a new category Category:Absinthe.  This way all the articles about Absinthe can be indexed under one category.  The new category is a subcategory of Category:Alcoholic beverages and Category:Distilled beverages, meaning that "Absinthe" now appears as a subcategory on those instead of just a page.
Of course, if there's a dispute about the new category, feel free to say so, but it seemed like the logical way to index it.  Meanwhile, I'll check for more Absinthe related articles to include.  I recommend any discussion on the topic be handled under the Category talk page at Category talk:Absinthe Dugwiki 17:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Created an Absinthe category to handle it and its subarticles 

message: Good article, but it leaves me wondering what the relationship of absinthe to the Arab drink arak, or the Greek ouzo might be.  Is They both are flavored with artemesia and anise, and turn white when water is added....  sounds like the same thing. 216.40.234.80 08:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, Ouzo actually doesn't have artemisia in it. I can't comment on arak. Kafziel 19:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

text: As Kafziel said Ouzo and Arak don't normally use A.A. (although some brands may use it as some additional flavoring, I don't know individual brand ingredients).  Anise is one of the main ingredients responsible for a louche (as well as fennel and star anise) so any liquor containing those will most likely turn cloudy white.  As far as I know the drinks aren't connected beyond their similar ingredients. --Ari 19:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe there are various local recipes for Ouzo, depending on where in Greece it is being made, which may theoretically contain an Artemisia species. However, Arak contains only anise and wine spirit. I do believe, though, that all these drinks (including Turkish Raki, Italian Sambucca, and some lesser known Spanish / Portuguese liquors) are indicitive of a common Mediterranian tradition of anise liquors. Would be an interesting topic to research someday. AndrewT 18:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, there seem to be so many different anise flavored liquors I wonder if they all have a common ancestor (as it were) or common elixir that then spread to other areas.--Ari 18:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  arak?  ouzo? 

message: See this user page. Maybe Chmee2 can help us with some local info and we can make sure that the Czech page is correct. Alanmoss 20:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If he could provide additional information as well as evidence that would be great.  Although so far it seems to be the same things.  The history of czech absinth seems to be similar to the belief thujone is the "active ingredient" in absinthe, everyone believes it and repeats it as truth but no one knows why it is truth.  The main source (and possibly only source) of the 1920's claims come from Radomil Hill, who has provided no evidence any of it is accurate.  There is conjecture that the reason Radomil Hill's absinth is so much different from traditional absinthe of the past is because he created it, with very little understanding of traditional absinthe. -- Ari 22:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Czech co-worker 

message: "It is not, however, illegal to possess or consume absinthe in the United States."  Is there a source for this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.123.69.130 (talk • contribs) 09:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the FDA and customs regulations are the only regulations about absinthe, neither make possession or consumption illegal. -- Ari 16:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hopefully in the near future, it will become deregulated here in the U.S. as well... i've always wanted to try it. Coolgamer 22:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Legality 

message: How in the hell can this be an  FA when it is Marilyn Manson's favorite drink? You people are dumbasses--70.124.132.176 15:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, whenever a star I don't like drinks something, I imediately hate it, because I'm not a sheep like his followers.  I hear Manson loves to breath too...  -- Ari 15:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That's only because the anit-Manson fans have kept it down.  It's a conspiracy man.  -- Ari 17:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marilyn Manson 

message: In the Introduction the fact that absinthe does not contain added sugar is mentioned. However, few lines below, when describing the use of the spoon, the author mentions the dissolving of added sugar. The difference between those two additions is explained (implicitly) somewhere in the body of the text. Shouldn't the distinction be clear from the very beginning of the article?Glaukon 20:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't seem like a contradiction to me. I like to eat my steak with salt and pepper. That doesn't mean the steaks come from the butcher with salt and pepper already in them. Many people put sugar in absinthe after they've poured it, but that doesn't imply that it comes with it. Adding sugar is up to personal preference, just like adding vermouth to vodka or mint leaves to rum. I don't find it confusing. Or maybe I misunderstand your suggestion? Kafziel 21:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I made a small change in the introduction. I hope that helps. Kafziel 12:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sugar contradiction 

message: "Besides being unpleasant to drink and a pale impression of authentic distilled absinthe, ..." -- unsigned by 65.105.228.241
:I see nothing POV about that, as stated in the article soaking wormwood in alcohol makes it extremely bitter and bad tasting, and is something which is not close to real absinthe. -- Ari 17:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm, "unpleasant" and "pale impression" are still qualitative words, not quantitative, whatever the most common opinion might be.--24.22.147.202 01:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you consider absinthe to require steam or alcohol distillation then you are right, it isn't a "pale impression" but simply not absinthe.  As for unpleasant. what would you suggest?   I find it to be generous in the description.  Soaking wormwood in alcohol produces an extremely bitter drink that can easily be undrinkable. -- Ari 02:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "pale impression" isn't even in the article anymore. That was changed a while back. My only thoughts about the word "unpleasant" is that it instead might be more appropriate to say that the resulting drink is far more bitter than absinthe. Bitterness is not subjective. Peridotmetal 04:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Lots of discussion of this elsewhere, but not on the page where it should be.
*I'm English: I still vote for American spelling. It's been in American most of the time it's been here, the major contributors are American, and the main readers are American. Alanmoss 20:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment. Is anise vs. aniseed really a British vs. American English difference?  If it is, and there's a likelihood of confusion, it might be a good idea to include both terms the first time anise is mentioned, for clarity's sake.  However, all the dictionaries I checked seem to think that anise is the plant and aniseed its seed throughout the English-speaking world -- including the Oxford English Dictionary, which shows "anise" being used long before the Mayflower launched. —Celithemis 00:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's really a problem. The Wikipedia article is at anise; just like everything else here, if anyone doesn't know what anise is, they can click the link and see that a synonym is aniseed. Shouldn't be an issue. Kafziel Talk 00:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Comment.' Hmm, perhaps this could lead to a compromise.  I would like to keep "anise" since it's the spelling used in most absinthe literature (english and american) but wouldn't mind if the article was coloured with U's. -- Ari 03:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: The comment was also made that it doesn't matter whether people know what anise is, because they can just click the link to find out. And references don't need to use language consistent with the rest of the article. Kafziel Talk 18:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Evidently you would. But that's not how it works. See our guideline on the subject, here. The first reference is in French; does that mean the whole article should be in French, for consistency? Of course not. Kafziel Talk 19:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: While we are only really discussing one word I think the page is best left to the wording used to describe absinthe on most other english absinthe pages (including some of the largest around) which would be "anise."  Cjk, is it possible you could leave the absinthe page alone until this conversation is over or do we need to get an admin/mod to protect the page or moderate or dole out warnings?  These constant reverts are getting annoying and by ignoring this discussion you do nothing to help your position.  Obviously some consensus and possibly admin action will need to be taken to stop these constant reverts. -- Ari 21:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, I think some people don't understand English (both UK and US) :-) Cribananda 18:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Nope, but it does set precedent that he doesn't appear to care to talk this out or what our opinions are and edits after 17:47 should probably be treated as vandalism.  In which case the best solution would be to say Hi to an admin since revert arguing is going no where. -- Ari 18:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He's still at it... Kafziel Talk 18:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote on spelling: English v. American 

message: Ok, whatever the spelling looks like at the time this is posted, please do not change it until this topic is closed. -- Ari 17:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I think some people don't understand English (both UK and US) :-) Cribananda 18:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Nope, but it does set precedent that he doesn't appear to care to talk this out or what our opinions are and edits after 17:47 should probably be treated as vandalism.  In which case the best solution would be to say Hi to an admin since revert arguing is going no where. -- Ari 18:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He's still at it... Kafziel Talk 18:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit wars