Talk:Jesuits

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. The !vote count suggests we have a consensus to move, and more importantly the strength of arguments points in the same direction: the supporters make strong policy-based arguments (particularly under WP:COMMONNAME), while some oppose !votes aren't rooted in policies or guidelines at all. There are reasonable concerns based on WP:PRECISE, but those arguments have been rebutted and, ultimately, haven't convinced most !voters that the current title best satisfies the WP:CRITERIAcriteria. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:36, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Society of Jesus →  – "Jesuit" is the common English name used for the order, used in public branding. For example, the website for the order () first mentions "Society of Jesus" only on the "About Page"; the use of "Society of Jesus" has similar limited use on the United Kingdom website (). Renaming this page to "Jesuits" would be more familiar to the general public, and be in line with the articles for other major orders such as the "Order of Friars Minor" (Franciscans) or the "Order of Preachers" (Dominican Order)  –Zfish118⋉talk 00:46, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

text: The proferred examples are not, in fact analogous. The equivalent of "Dominican Order" would be "Jesuit Order" (a move I could live with) and the article at Franciscans is about Franciscans in general, the Order of Friars Minor has its own separate page.  Jahaza (talk) 01:05, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

text: *I could live with "Jesuit Order" as well, but don't think it's necessary from a disambiguation perspective. The Jesuits and Dominicans are a monolithic order, where as the Franciscans have three equal and independent orders (OFM, OFM Conv, OFM Cap). The Franciscan umbrella article covers all three, as well as affiliated female orders and lay orders. The Jesuits do not have these layers that need an umbrella article for Jesuits collectively, versus the order specifically. Conversely, though similarly monolithic as a religious institute, Dominicans use "Order" in the article title to disambiguate it from residents of the Caribbean nation, an issue that doesn't exist with Jesuits. –Zfish118⋉talk 18:59, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: *That blows up your own WP:CONSISTENT argument, though.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I would tend to agree I am making a common name argument, rather than a strict argument for consistency. –Zfish118⋉talk 13:48, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

text: *@Zfish118: The Dominicans are not monolithic; their ranks include priest friars in the OP, nuns and sisters who are also OP but in different branches, and they have a third order laity branch as well. So the Jesuits stand alone among these big families as the singular monolithic order. And this undivided nature is the only viable argument I can envision for retaining the page at its current title, if indeed the preponderance of WP:RS would tip the balance in favor of renaming. Elizium23 (talk) 06:28, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I am making a very narrow claim of "monolithic". There is only one Order of Preachers, of which there are male and female members, as well as lay associates/tertieries. There is no "Order of Preachers Capuchin" or "OP Conv", unlike the parallel Franciscan orders. Women religious are also part of the OP proper, not in a separate order like the various Orders of Saint Clare. –Zfish118⋉talk 16:22, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose that is a narrow claim. www.opwest.org:  Certainly there is a matter of degree here; the OP is more monolithic than Carmelites who are slightly more monolithic than Franciscans, but I hope that you could agree that Jesuits are the most monolithic of all: there are no women, there is no laity, there are no independent communities or branches, there are Jesuits united under one governance, one Superior General, one Rule, and only distinguished by territorial jurisdictions. Elizium23 (talk) 20:22, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The unity under a single superior general is essentially what I meant, although I could not find the proper term for the office (ie, Master of the Order of Preachers). –Zfish118⋉talk 17:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

text: *The webpage of the Jesuits is Jesuits.org, not SocietyofJesus.org.  If the Jesuits call themselves the Jesuits, as do the vast majority of non-Jesuits, who are we to disagree.Smallchief (talk) 13:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this the same website that starts with "We are the Society of Jesus..."? Walrasiad (talk) 06:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. It's the webpage titled "The Jesuits."  And the second sentence of the text says "Most people call us "the Jesuits." WP:COMMONNAME says "Use commonly recognizable names."Smallchief (talk) 08:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

text: *I come from one of the more ancient lineages of Jesuit scholars, and Society of Jesus has never been a name by which they went. They have always referred to themselves historically as Jesuits. 2001:8F8:1621:7ADB:49CE:A984:EF3C:7C1B (talk) 12:09, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 31 July 2022 

message: Anybody have an idea why there are so many broken citation links in this article? It seems like more than just regular over time link rot? Jahaza (talk) 04:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken citations 

message: I see several references that the Society of Jesus is the largest male religious order in the world. In this article it merely makes the claim that it's the largest order of priests and brothers. If the SJ is the largest male religious order, what is the largest religious order overall? I can't imagine a monolithic order of female religious that comes close. Elizium23 (talk) 17:28, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Largest? 

message: The new Ireland section is very long. It may be better to create a Jesuits in Ireland article, and put a summary here. –Zfish118⋉talk 21:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree with that approach. Primarily I wanted to get the text out of the original article it was posted in. I can move it to a new page myself, or if anyone else wants to they're free to, as this topic is not my forte. ForsythiaJo (talk) 04:08, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

text: I agree with this approach as well. Perhaps the same can be done for the Canada section, or more information can be added to the United States section, where they can be combined into one separate article. Roaringplatypus (talk) 20:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ireland