Talk:Purgatory

message: Sorry, Precor, but I must say the following comment, which you are insisting on inserting under the heading "Pain and fire", seems to belong in a more generic part of the article. In any case it cannot be admitted to Wikipedia unless it is attributed to a reliable source and not put in as a personal editorial comment.
:There have been many theological concepts of purgatory over the centuries of Christianity. May scriptural interpretations point to the existence of the purgatory concept but scripture, as with many aspects of its interpretation, does not describe it in any detail and thus the theological beliefs pertaining to this theological concept is wide of breath. What is common among almost all interpretations related to Purgatory is that it is a spiritual place, or state, where the soul is purified of any remaining venal (or small) sins that accumulated before death but was not remitted to Christ for forgiveness before the end of one's life. Lima (talk) 05:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pain and fire 

message: I have no objection in principle to capitalizing "Hell", "Heaven", "Purgatory"; but I believe that a systematic overthrow by a single editor of the established usage in an article is illegitimate.  Such a systematic change should be effected only after ensuring on the Talk page that there is support for it.
I have also restored the picture that was at the start of the article. The IP editor's replacement of it with one that reflects the popular image of a fiery purgatory would make the reader think that this is an essential part of the idea of purgatory.  I have moved that editor's fiery image to the section on "Fire and pain", although I think it would be better to omit it completely.  The original picture shows that people do have several different images, not just one, of what purgatory is.
The Eastern Orthodox Church does consider itself to be one Church, even if composed of several "local" Churches, just as the (Roman) Catholic Church sees itself as one Church, even if composed of several particular Churches.  There are no grounds for changing one of these to the plural, while continuing to refer to the other in the singular.  Lima (talk) 07:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Different capitalization strategy adopted: see below.  More explanation of images given, with better tie-in to text. Attention to "church" versus "denomination" given. Purgatory, in its fullest development, is almost an exclusively Catholic doctrine;  if "Church" is used in the Catholic section, readers are free to interpret it as "Catholic Church", whether they think that means Universal or particular. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 02:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes by 75.220.110.8 

message: I quote from the top of this article: "Purgatory is the condition or process of purification in which the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for Heaven. This is an idea that has ancient roots and is well-attested in early Christian literature, while the conception of purgatory as a geographically situated place is largely the creation of medieval Christian piety and imagination" 
This is  a direct quote from the Enc. Brit. Again, there is no source showing the idea of Purgatory to have ancient roots and being well attested in early Christian literature. Some quotes from this early Christian literature are needed or any reference to Purgatory in early Christianity should be deleted.
Poldebol (talk) 04:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If it is a copyvio from EB it should be removed for that reason, or rewritten. But if it is from, or in, EB it is not unsourced, is it? Johnbod (talk) 04:33, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources needed for Purgatory in early Christianity  

message: If anyone has a problem with the additions, please say so in a civil fashion. The references are accurate, and hyperlinks to the texts have been provided.  
Johncab593 (talk) 04:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem was explained in my edit summary when I first removed them.  The translations of the word are a non-sequiter because that is not where the Catholic Church derives the teaching of purgatory.  In fact, of all the verses I've ever heard ANYONE try to use to support purgatory, not one of them used the word Sheol, Hades, Gehenna.  So the validity of purgatory does not, as your edit summarizes, depend on what sort of translation one accepts.  Hence it is a complete non-sequiter and pointless to include.  In fact, I would consider it borderline pov pushing because it attempts to make a conclusion for the reader based on things that are actually unrelated to the concept of purgatory.  What you are doing is making an argument against the existence of purgatory based entirely on the history of the WORD purgatory, but concepts often, if not ALWAYS exist before a term to define them does, yet you're trying to falsify purgatory based on the origin of the word.  Certainly you don't believe dinosaurs didn't exist until someone invented that word too, do you?  The article is about the concept of purgatory, not the word purgatory itself.  Hence, and I know I'm sounding a bit repetitive here, your edit has no purpose in the article.  I don't even have to look at the sources to know that.Farsight001 (talk) 08:25, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

text: All that need be said of the origin of the English word "purgatory" (the noun) is: "The word "purgatory" is derived, through Anglo-Norman and Old French, from the Latin word purgatorium."Purgatory," Oxford English Dictionary There is no need for more.  On the origin of the Latin word "purgatorium" more can be said.  But the idea that the Latin word was used in the twelfth century to translate New Testament ᾅδης (Hades) is both unsourced and nonsense, and all the talk about how various Bibles in various languages translated ᾅδης and γέεννα (Gehenna) is irrelevant, since they translated neither word as "purgatory". Esoglou (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

text: The section does read very oddly at present, as though as many versions of the Latin Bible existed as of the bible in English, which is certainly not the case. There is no link to Vulgate that I can see; AFAIK this text was hardly ever altered.  It is all easily available online btw - here and in many other places. Johnbod (talk) 20:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Johncab, you completely missed what I was trying to say.  Please read what I typed above again.  Personally, I was actually pleasently surprised about the sources you used.  Normally someone trying to present information the way you are is using places like jesus-is-savior or chick.com.  The sources are not my problem.  The problem is that the whole point of your addition is irrelevant.  You're going on and on about the origins of the word purgatory and talking about how the existence of the concept depends on the origins of the word and how one accepts certain translations, but NO ONE derives the existence of purgatory from that stuff.  Hence, your addition is simply irrelevant.  It would be kind of like me adding a new section on the origins of the pope hat in the article on bishops.  There's just no point to it.Farsight001 (talk) 20:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

text: It might appear in a gloss or commentary, but tinkering with the actual Latin Vulgate text was strongly discouraged for obvious reasons, and AFAIK changes between the 4th century & at least the 16th were minimal, & mostly due to copyists' errors in manuscripts.  There were some revisions in the light of the linguistic and textual research of Renaissance Humanism & the 1592 "Clementine" printed edition was then standard until 1979, when a new revision was published. Johnbod (talk) 14:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any problems with the origin of the word Purgatory? 

message: Does anyone mind expanding the Lutheran section of this article? Mainly, it only speaks of "praying for the dead", not on how Luther felt about purgatory as a process of purification... Shark96z (talk · contribs) 20:12, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. "Praying for the dead", although does have to do with purgatory, seems to lean more towards veneration of saints or intercession of saints. I think it would be good to add what Lutheran churches believe. I know some, like the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, reject purgatory and others, like the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church accept the doctrine. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 23:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lutheran section 

message: The sentence:
And God being a just God would not condemn to hell a person who although not having satisfied restitution for a sin or sins, and therefore not currently ready for the rewards of heaven, the sufferings of hell.
doesn't quite make sense.  I think someone got a little tangled in the syntax; possibly, they were considering two ways of expressing the thought and mixed them together--or maybe they just omitted a phrase.  140.147.236.194 (talk) 19:32, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for drawing attention to it.  Esoglou (talk) 20:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sentence confused? 

message: Specific to the American church, the Thirty-Nine Articles are not an official statement of Anglican belief and have been relegated to an appendix of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer.  A "soft view" of purgatory can be found in Hymn 357 of the '82 Hymnal.  It should be remembered that Anglicans have continued to pray for the dead, whereas most Protestant denominations do not.  So while indulgences have been rejected along with specific statements about the nature of purgatory, the idea persists in Anglicanism. 67.98.94.252 (talk) 21:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglicanism 

message: Under the 'Sin' section it reads:
"This teaching is based on both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition."
There needs to be a reference to where in Scripture this is found, and probably that only Catholics believe that their interpretation of Matthew 12:32 and 1 Cor. 3:11-15 is where it is found.  Protestants have a much different interpretation of these verses which do not support the idea of purgatory.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dockstand (talk • contribs) 15:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: "This teaching" is about sin, not purgatory.  Esoglou (talk) 16:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh.  my bad.  I re-read it a bit more slowly and think its fine the way its written.  Thanks...Dockstand (talk) 19:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source needed for Purgatory in Scripture 

message: Does the article address whether only Catholics are give the "opportunity" in Purgatory? What about Protestants. I read through and may have missed this topic. The classic statement: "Apart from the Catholic Church there is no salvation" would have to have been revised somehow to allow baptized Protestants (leave off for now those of other religions) the "opportunity" (not scare quotes) of correcting their outlook and lives. If the article doesn't approach this subject, I think it should.JWorkman 16:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not Catholic teaching that nobody but Catholics are saved from hell but may have to be purified before entering heaven.  Esoglou (talk) 19:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Would you make that into a positive statement? What does the Catholic Church teach positively about Protestants in Purgatory? And then I want to ask if that positive teaching is in the article.  JWorkman 19:38, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The idea that the Catholic Church teaches that Protestants and Zoroastrians and animists and others who are not Catholics cannot be purified after death merits mention in this article no more than any other baseless and uncited idea.  Read the article.  The time for "correcting one's attitude" is before death.  Also read Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.  Esoglou (talk) 21:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the links sunshine. Why the hostility? I'm planning to attend a Catholic Church anyway. Whatever. JWorkman 21:46, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does the article address whether only Catholics are given the "opportunity" of Purgatory? 

message: On page 107 of "Letters to Malcolm, Lewis states "Of course I pray for the dead.  The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compelling theological case against it would deter me.  And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if my prayers for the dead were forbidden.  At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead.  What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?  But on the traditional Protestant view, all the dead are damned or saved: if they are damned, prayer for them is useless.  If they are saved, it is equally useless."
On page 108 he states "But I won't press, or guess, that side for the moment.  I believe in Purgatory."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.112.169 (talk) 20:05, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: C.S. Lewis' Opinions on Purgatory and Praying for the Dead

message: On some cherry-picked quotes it makes a false appearance that Orthodox Churches aren't against the conception of purgatory in general and only single Armenian one is against, turned into a dissident. Actually they mostly are against it, including the biggest one, the Russian Orthodox Church, they completely deny Catholic biblical proofs of the purgatory, I even read an article how they laugh at Catholics, linking addition of the purgatory to dogma to the influence of 'The Divine Comedy' (and also at the very conception that people can change dogmas themselves). I'm not particularly interested in this question and don't regard wiki, which is an advertising ground of everybody you can even think of, feminists, gays, followers of Krishna, Catholics, minor Orthodox groups etc, as a serious source of information, but IMO that chapter needs a serious rewriting to be unbiased, i.e. there should be added sources that Orthodox Churches deny the purgatory and sometimes do it quite vehemently. 217.118.64.56 (talk) 14:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The article states: "The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God."  Esoglou (talk) 16:41, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

text: I have checked the article, and the issue complained of seems to have been fixed in the current article. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 03:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

text: This is off-topic: No action required. The Talk section should be used to discuss specific flaws and improvements to the article. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 03:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Orthodox chapter looks very wrong and biased 

message: This section cites only the Qur'an (without any external links for verification, or even naming the edition used), a primary religious text that can't count towards RS (it's not a section on Qur'anic quotations, in which case it might be appropriate), and it cites no secondary RSs at all.  Jujutsuan (talk | contribs) 06:30, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Checked. Current article does have citations. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 02:36, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam: OR and unreferenced 

message: --5.33.4.165 (talk) 00:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not for theological debate. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 04:06, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not even the reference desk?--5.33.4.81 (talk) 15:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Existence of purgatory, just like Heaven, Hell, God, etc. can not be "proven" and that is why it is a matter of faith. This is an online encyclopedia, not a seminary or debate forum. It is not our job or place to try and determine if a theological doctrine is "true" or "real". -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason 5that I asked whether it is real is because if it is not, I believe it must not be on Wikipedia.--217.118.64.56 (talk) 21:59, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia has articles about all sorts of things that are fictional. -- Beland (talk) 20:00, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

text: Technically God can be proven... if you look at it from the right point of view. Whether you believe in purgatory or not is how you view Matthew 12:32 and 1 Cor. 3:11-15. 67.60.214.234 (talk) 20:31, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

text:  A definition does not imply existence. That there are people who do not believe in an afterlife is hardly notable enough to be included in a Wikipedia article: it might be relevant for Children's Wikipedia. I think no reader who gets beyond the first sentence of the Lead will have half-doubts that this is not a religious/spiritual idea, because it is only discussed w.r.t. religions or metaphor in the Lead. If this is not acceptable, perhaps a phrase like that of the Heaven Lead might be added: "according to some religions"?? Rick Jelliffe (talk) 02:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is it real? 

message: Early in the article there is an external link to some bible verse listed as "2 Macc 12:46", but going to that link displays an error message saying no such verse is found.--108.86.123.248 (talk) 07:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Bibleverse is no longer working as before. A different external link is now provided.  Bealtainemí (talk) 13:54, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link to bible verse 

message: :The definition of "venial sin" as "forgivable sin" is confusing.  All mortal sins are also forgivable.  I presume that the distinction of "forgivable" sin refers to what is forgivable after death.  Pastors of souls often encounter people who are disturbed by the notion, rooted in the Gospels, that Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.  See Wikipedia article "Eternal sin."  Exsult1 (talk) 16:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Replaced with a wikilink.  Bealtainemí (talk) 19:33, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of "venial sin" 

message: The opening statement says "some Christians (mostly Catholic)". Catholics alone are the absolute majority of Christians on planet Earth, so what is the definition of "some"? 185.12.222.54 (talk) 10:58, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked and the most recent version does not have "some" or variation. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 03:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Some Christian"? 

message: There is a mistake  in this article jahnamah is both hell and purgotry in Islam. Hell is a purifying also. Barzakh is a place where the dead go to await reckoning. Araf is like limbo people how sin and good dead equalty 41.92.64.169 (talk) 21:05, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The confusion probably arises from that Jahannam is both the term for hell, as well as the upper most layer. The upper most layer is a purgatory for Muslim sinners, while the lower places are a place of damnation for non-Muslims (however defined) VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 14:51, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the best policy is to improve the specific articles on those Islamic concepts: I have added links with brief text on al-A'raf and Barzakh, worded to fit in with rest of the article. Link added on Jahannam.  The text of the current article does now seem to make the other distinctions raised by commenters: maybe someone with more expertise can confirm this? Rick Jelliffe (talk) 03:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  For islam 

message: :Greetings. This article fails the B-class criteria #1: , and #4:  It is marked as having unsourced statements (2017 and 2021) and weasel-worded phrases from June 2021. 
:There is an issue with content added after inline citations. This could just be misplacement or original research-- Otr500 (talk) 14:29, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't see either of these issues as being notable in the current text, though some more improvements would be good. I removed tendentious material. The Judaism section needs to have its inline citations marked up with proper tags, such as the bibleverse tag. I think it is appropriate to quote from the CCC (Catechism of Catholic Church), but only to amplify/confirm what some synthesis of cited WP:RS material says: ... indeed, I wonder whether the CCC could be regarded, squinting, as a WP:RS as it is a peer-reviewed summary of external material :-) ??? Rick Jelliffe (talk) 03:50, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article issues and classification 

message: It is never pointed out that purgatory does not exist in the Bible. And furthermore, Jesus , in His own words said, let the dead bury the dead Luke 9:60. God imputed all judgement ( past present and future sins) of all mankind on the body of Jesus on the cross. Then Jesus , having satisfied the justice of God , said, it is finished. Over . Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized Mark 16:16. Browshan (talk) 02:59, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be specific here: in your Bible it is never pointed out. In the Bible that has been around much longer, it is pointed out and that is mentioned in the current article.  Latin Beau  06:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

text: " Jesus , in His own words" We don't have Jesus' own words, which are probably lost to time. We have contradictory descriptions of him in the gospels, written long after his death. The quest for the Historical Jesus has been fruitless. Dimadick (talk) 06:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

text: I have added explicit text that (in Catholic doctrine) purgatory is "not related to the forgiveness of sins for salvation" (i.e. it relate to actual sanctification not imputed justification) which I take to be the heart of user Browshan's comment, as far as editing is concerned. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 03:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purgatory 

message: I am editing the article so that, outside quotations "Purgatory" is used when the meaning of place seems to be foremost, and "purgatory" is used when the meaning of state or process seems to be foremost. This should give more consistency and clues to readers. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 10:25, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Capitalization

message: The lead for this article, which used to be quite good, was badly messed up in around 2019. In particular, the definition in the opening sentence that purgatory was "expiationary purification" was  inserted without any justification. IMHO:
# This definition has no citation that justifies it (it may come from Miriam-Webster)
# It does not reflect the content of the article
# It is incorrect and may mislead (however well-intentioned.) As I understand it, the dominant adopters of "purgatory" (the Catholics) do not hold purgatory to be "expiationary" in the usual sense of the word (certainly not in the sense of the linked article on Propitiation), and absolutely not in the sense that Lutherans e.g. might make of it (something salvific, independent of Christ),  and the link of "purification" to "ritual purification" is quite off-topic. (And "purging" is not quite the same idea as "purifying".)
I think the attempt is being made to come up with a definition of purgatory that is not Catholic-specific, which is fine, but I think if that definition fails to work for the major use, it needs updating.  
I think the best thing is to remove "expiationary purification" and go back to something more like the previous definitions. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 14:36, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made changes along these lines. The first sentence is religion-neutral, without the strange link. The Catholic parts are in the second para, tie in with the CCC citation better, and reflect the article better by mentioning the pictures. The lead is much simpler and easier to understand now, IMHO. Of course, please discuss improvements here. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 15:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

text: I gave moved some paras. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 14:36, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad Lead

message: The section "Speculations and imaginings about purgatory" seems a little dodgy. It misquotes the source to say "second-hand speculative interpretations" rather than "second-order", then it adds a quote of Ratzinger as an example of this, then puts in the title the pejorative term "imaginings". The total effect is not NPOV.  Rick Jelliffe (talk) 22:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed it to second-order. Then in re-organizing I removed it entirely and renamed sections. There seemed to be repeated sections blaming "theologians" for "imaginings": whatever it is saying, there should be more NPOV ways of expressing it, and with citations. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 23:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-NPOV Material or bad synthesis