Talk:Joschka Fischer

message: I just removed the link to the picture Joschka_Fischer.jpg, because despite several attempts to resize it, it was filling the full screen, and made reading the page quite difficult. If there's someone who can figure out what happened, please help with this one.--217.230.129.24 (talk) 21:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: This article is in horrible shape! It is formulated in an incredible suggestive manner, and in some cases I doubt whether the facts are accurate. This needs some serious attention. The Minister of War (Peace) 00:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the article could use cleanups and definetly more information. However I don't quite follow how is it POV? Which parts in specific are so suggestive? Gryffindor 14:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag 

message: From the "Green politician" bit:
"With respect, sir, you are an asshole" (german: "Mit Verlaub, Herr Präsident, Sie sind ein Arschloch.").
I don't know German that well, but shouldn't "sir" be something like "Mr. President"? 68.39.174.238 06:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. --Abe Lincoln 07:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It shouldn't be "with respect" (where is "Respekt"?). It is "with your permission" and this is a then heavily-publicized rhetoric trick. He supposes the the permission of the president to be insulted ;). --Ben  T/C  12:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

text:  With respect: though 'Verlaub' is directly related to 'Erlaubnis = permission' the phrase itself ought to be translated: with respect. http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=en&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed§Hdr=on&spellToler=on&search=Verlaub&relink=on - Please reconsider your change! --Oldnag85 (talk) 20:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "With all due respect, Mr Speaker, but you are" etc.--217.251.95.130 (talk) 12:20, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation? 

message: The external links following the sentence "The following sources reflect the views of U.S. adversaries of Fischer and his policies, especially Germany's decision not to participate in the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq." are extremly POV, they do not show opinions of the other side and the Paul Berman one is not even fact-based (quote: "Saddam and the terrible weapons he has") yeah, Saddam and his WMDs... -- Imladros 22:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Weblinks 

message: Fischer shouldn't really be called a high school drop-out. I am, however, at a loss to find an Anglo-American term that would be adequate. The problem is that - at least in the 1960ies - the German school system was so vastly different from the American. The fundamental difference was that there were four different types of schools, of which only the first four classes of one were attended by all students of the age group. That was the so-called "Volksschule" (i. e. "people's school"). Every pupil had to go there. Those who failed there would be transferred to the "Hilfsschule" or "Sonderschule", a type of school for pupils with learning deficits. An exam at the end of the fourth grade would decide about the future school career. The majority of pupils with average exam results would go on to the 5 higher classes of the "Volksschule". The Volksschul-diploma would enable you to start being trained as labourer, vendor, craftsman etc. Those who were more successful in the exams would be directed to the "Mittelschule" (or "Realschule"), which they would attend 5 or 6 years. The diploma would enable them to become clerks in banks, insurance companies, the civil service, or skilled workers. In the late 1960ies a number of special schools were created that could be attended after "Mittelschule" in order to provide a qualification similar to that of the "Gymnasium".
Just about 10 per cent of the 4th-graders would be sent to the "Gymnasium" (or: "Oberschule", therefore usually wrongly equated with the American "high school"). This they would have to attend 9 years. So, normally, you would be at least 19 when you graduated from "Gymnasium". 50-70 per cent of the graduates from "Gymnasium" would enter a university (mind you, there were no colleges in Germany; only universities were considered to provide a truly academic education). - You could also leave "Gymnasium" after 6 years (at the age of 16 or 17); you would then have a qualification that equalled that of graduation from "Mittelschule" (Realschule) but was usually respected more, especially since at "Gymnasium" learning at least two foreign languages was obligatory (English/French or English/Latin in the so-called "mathematical branch", English, French and Latin in the so-called "linguistic" branch), while in "Mittelschule" you learned only English and possibly very little French.
So, when Fischer left "Gymnasium" at 17, he had the second highest qualification the German school system offered, and I think it is fair to assume that his education was at least as good as that of the top third of the graduates from average American high schools (I believe I know what I'm taling about since I graduated from a well-respected American high school in Dearborn as well as from the German "Gymnasium"). Assuming that he had chosen the linguistic branch of "Gymnasium" he would have studied English for 6 years(which certainly partly accounts for his fluency in English), French and Latin for at least 4 years. In mathematics he would have advanced to trigonometry, calculus and that sort of stuff, he would have had to attend classes for several years in chemistry, physics, geography, biology, politics, history, world religions or philosophy, art and music (all obligatory courses).
If am not completely mistaken, I believe that this educational profile is not exactly what you associate with the concept of a "high school drop-out". Fischer's school career is, by the way, typical of a large number of students of his generation: at the age of 16/17, at the height of puberty, many decided that they were sick and tired of "Gymnasium", the constant studying (while their peers who had finished "Volksschule" or "Mittelschule" were already making money and driving motorcycles), pressure and usually quite authoritarian teachers, and especially if there was no academic tradition in the family the parents, too, felt that there was no need to have their child graduate from "Gymnasium" and go to university. If you left "Gymnasium" at that stage you were in possession of the so-called "Mittlere Reife", something like an intermediate certificate of higher education, and you were be no means stigmatized as as "drop-out".
In order to understand better in what educational stratum you would have to localize Fischer you must also be aware that in the 1960ies only about 9-10 per cent of his age group would go to a university; to go to a "Gymnasium" was elitarian, and to study at a university even more so.
All of what I've tried to explain is not meant to diminish Fischer's intellectual achievement; he is obviously very gifted, his brain and energy have enabled him to absorb and admirable amount of knowledge and acquire all sorts of skills in the autodidactic way. It seems obvious to me that, if puberty and perhaps a lack of parental support had not kept him from graduating and studying at a university, he would have been a successful, probably even brilliant university student - which would not necessarily have started him on an even more brilliant political career.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.91.129.2 (talk) 12:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  High school drop-out 

message: a new photograph of Fischer was just added to Wikimedia Commons as part of the German Federation's archives (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F065084-0014,_Bonn,_Pressekonferenz_der_Grünen,_Bundestagswahl.jpg).  This photo was taken in 1983, so it is much more relevant to the Green Politician section than the photo with Colin Powell, and should replace that one.  Any objections?--Pokeronskis (talk) 06:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  new photo 

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thread_title: File:Joska fischer wappen.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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