Talk:Venezuela/Archive 1

message: The artcile should be tagged as non-NPOV, it is largely tainted as anti-Chavez, some of the biases of the article:
- it talks about the 1992 coup attempt Chavez was involved in, giving the number of fatalities, but failing to tell that it was the result of a repression of a popular uprising that left 3000 victims some years before, nor it tells that there was another coup attempt for similar reasons too
- it shows an impressive picture of an anti-Chavez demo, without any picture of the various impressive pro-Chavez demos
- the description of the facts of the 2001 coup against Chavez are not only extremely non-NPOV, but also plain and blatantly false; the pro-Chavez demo never shot at the direction of the anti-Chavez demo, actually both demos never got near one of the other, full wide plans (instead of short focus ones) show that very clearly, the gunmen are shooting at police forces that shoot at them; there is nobody else on the streets, nobody from the opposition demo is there; then, Chavez never "resigned", there is actually recorded evidence (journalists happened to be there and made a documentary with that data) and the government officials always told that he never resigned, there never was "power void" but a plotted coup, and president just accepted to be made prisoner so that the tanks surrounding the presidential palace wouldn't bomb it; also, Pedro Carmona Estanga didn't just "take power" to "fill a power void" but actually issued a decree that, among other things, dissolved the parliament, dissolved the governement, dissolved the constitution, changed the name of the country, and that started large scale political prossecution; the article not only doesn't talk about the very anti-democratic nature of the plotted coup, but also fails to tell why it was defeated, it was defeated because of spontaneous and massive popular mobilisation, that, at the danger of their lives (there were several killed) marched to the presidential palace and the army garrisons; when the army saw the popualr will on the streets they decided to side with the street and defeated the coup.
- about the revocatory referendum, the article fails to say that it was possible thanks to the new constitution, introduced by Chavez political changes, that gives the possibility to do, for all elected charges, a revocatory referendum at mid-charge; it was not that the opposition "forced" them, as the article may lead one to think, they just excercised a new democratic possibility, introduced by the new governement.
- the numbers about electoral participation are wrong, the participation in this last election is about the same that in other parlementary election, the numbers of 50%/60% are plainly wrong, and while one can argue that the opposition POV that the new parliament is "not legitimate" due to high abstention is worth to tell, then it should be told also that similar abstention numbers are registered in other venezuelian elections, as well as in other countries (actually, in almost any country without compulsory voting)
Well, much more could be said, but I don't expect perfection either, just that the non-NPOV is so blatant that I'm shocked, it gives a very bad image of Wikipedia; Wikipedia shouldn't be a propagande tool
212.100.178.141 23:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Paragraphs are your friends. Don't expect many people to read your rantings if you can't be curteous enough to make them readable.--RicardoC 01:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: According to this article and pretty much every other one in mainstream media, participation in the previous two congressional elections (2000 and 2002) were 50-60%, compared to 25% in 2005. They make the comparison to 2000 and 2002 congressional elections because Chavez was already in power.  Before then the political climate was not as tense and voter turnout was generally less across the board.  In other words, it makes for a good comparison all things being equal. - Spaceriqui 07:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I can't speak for other countries, but in the US voter turnout in midterm elections run between 36% and 39%, at least for the past 30 years.  Spain recorded it's lowest voter turnout at 42% since the restoration of democracy in the 1970's on approving the EU Constitution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spaceriqui (talk • contribs) 07:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  The comparisons above are not valid.  In Venezuela, voting was compulsory; that is, if you didn't have the stamp on your national identity card (cedula) indicating you had voted, you could be prohibited from financial transactions, etc. Voter turnout was typically high until voters abstained in protest, which was partly responsible for Chavez' initial election. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.71 (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: non-NPOV?

message: The Venezuela name hasn't its origin on the Orinoco River indians. The history to everybody told is that was palafitos at the Lake Maracaibo, the origins of its name. 
Javier
Mentioned translation in doubt.
After consulting a Venezuelian friend, he assured me that Venezuela does not mean Little Venice but more something like Dodgy/Shabby Venice... I'm not a spanish speaker, but he told me also that the ending *zuela has more something of lower quality than smaller size. Any statements? My recent change was immediatly reset... so I'd like to have at least an opinion about that. Thank you,
Christian
Mujer means woman. MujerZUELA means prostitute. So, the Dodgy/Shabby Venice would be a more accurate translation than Little Venice
Daniel
:I disagree, cazo means dipper or saucepan and cazUELA little saucepan, that's a more neutral example. Besides, for smaller size you have to add -UELA/-UELO, not -ZUELA/-ZUELO", we have to remember that Venezuela comes from Venecia (the root is Venez-). From that time is the novel El diablo cojuelo, published ca. 100 years later. Cojo means lame, and cojuelo would mean a lame person whose disability to walk isn't very severe.
Claiming that the name of Venezuela comes from native languages is just plain ignorance. 
*Valenzuela means Little Valencia
*Zarzuela means Little Zarza
*Mujerzuela means Small Mujer
*Hombrezuelo means Little Hombre
Go and study Spanish!--tequendamia 21:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin of Name

message: quoting Edward:
Why doesn't this article mention the fact that Venezuela is sliding towards dictatorship?'Italic text
Because wikipedia it's known to be an unbiased way of information. Whether you think Venezuela it's heading to a dictatorship or a Cuban/Nazi style government it has nothing to do with that. Not everybody thinks the way you do and that's why those remarks should not be in wikipedia because if they do, the other side -Chavez' supporters- will have the same comment you just wrote complaining the same way you did... and who is wikipedia to determine who's right or wrong when it comes to politics?
Juan Hernandez
I think it would only be appropriate if there was a clear, objective measure of 'sliding towards dictatorship'.  The fact that there's disagreement, however, is certainly worth noting.  User:Peter Grey 10:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dictatorship?

message: The paragraphs about Hugo Chavez are way too long,I doubt he's that important (to the extent of taking half of the history section) in the history of his country.
:True - Wikipedia has a strong bias towards the present. If you have the time, do help expand the historical sections! Rd232 20:04, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a very exhaustive article about Chavez himself, so my proposal would be to just briefly mention the most important events from the last 10 years and otherwise refer there. Besides, it's not so much part of Venezuela's history than of its politics. --Emilio floris 12:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much Chavez 

message: South America is currently nominated to be improved on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. You can support the article with your vote.--Fenice 12:14, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement Drive

message: ----
I have added Heritage and Art to the Culture section and title as they apply and are really 'two sides of the same coin'.  I have followed the same format already in place, by adding 'main article' sections to the Heritage and Art sections.  So these are new entries for Venezuela.  I have also added some commentary on Heritage, Culture and Art on the main page, leaving in place the comments already written.  No edits there.  
Feel free to edit and or comment on these additions.  
--Chandra brown erlendson 16:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Culture section

message: "Chávez has only slowly been able to gain control of most branches of the government, due to the power of the corrupt public service bureaucracy. The government has often had to create new grassroots public services in the form of "missions" to avoid going through the corrupt bureaucracy."
Are you kidding me??? The bureaucracy IS corrupt, but it was put in place by this administration. Chávez has been in power for nearly seven years now, for crying out loud. The paragraph, as it currently stands, paints a picture of an embattled Chávez trying to fight his way through a legacy public bureaucracy, which could not be farther from the truth. Thanks to the Constituent Assembly, the powers were remade according to Chávez's explicit wishes, and he's never had trouble stacking them in his favor.
Behold the National Assembly passing what should have been an organic law (and as such would have required a qualified majority of the vote) with a simple majority, instantly expanding the supreme court by 12 justices, all of which would also b selected by a simple majority. Or the president of the supreme court overstepping his bounds and having the court appoint the new electoral authority (again, stacked in the government's favor.) Or the election he forced on the supposedly autonomous CTV. Or his televised dismissal of the PDVSA brass prior to the April 2002 ouster. Or... 
Also, the mention of Chávez's letter of resignation having never surfaced is inaccurate. A handwritten letter bearing Chávez's signature and stating his intent to resign, as well as his dismissal of Diosdado Cabello as vice-president does indeed exist, though of course its veracity is disputed. I would think such a document would merit at least a passing mention. Chávez denying having resigned despite numerous testimonies to the contrary, does not make it true.
Not only is the Chávez segment of the Venezuela article overlong, it's also borderline propaganda.--RicardoC 04:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Oh right, poor Chávez

message: I think all but the first two paragraphs of this section should be deleted or replaced by a single paragraph about recent/current Venezuelan political events. Perhaps just a link to the main article on the 2002 coup attemp. JRSP 18:32, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics Section 

message: A  has been created for Wikipedia, the new one include the "Guayana Esequiba" zone and the political division, i guess this map can be use in the States article, you decide, Regards from Venezuela. Venex 13:25, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Venezuela's map 

message: I may be a bit late in saying this, but though I appreciate all the work that went into making the very colorful template with the information of each state, I think a lot of it is not really relevant here (perhaps in the state own article). I mean, a reader that wants to learn about the country as a whole is not going to give a hut about the flags for all the individual states. Besides, most Venezuelans do not have any clue about the flag of the state where they live (I didn't even know we had them). The names, population, land extension and any other real info I think should go into a more simpler table that doesn't look so cluttered by such a carnival of colorful flags and emblems. --Anagnorisis 18:48, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: States info in template

message: The article says: "It has been claimed that Christopher Columbus was so enthralled by Venezuela's landscape, when arriving to its coast in 1498, that he referred to the land as Tierra de Gracia (Land of Grace), which has become the country’s nickname." This should be corrected because though often claimed, it is not exactly true. What Columbus called the area of Venezuela he explored was "Isla de Gracia" which means "Isle of Grace" and this was because (once again) Columbus made a mistake and thought that the continental land he had in front of him was an island. Read the Macuro article for info on this. Anagnorisis 01:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Tierra de gracia?

message: My sources for low voter turnout of 25% in the 2005 parliamentary elections, compared to 50 to 60% are  and 
I believe pro-Chavez groups are saying that it is much higher.  
On another note, can we move the political debate to another page?  (ie. Bolivarian_Revolution or Politics_of_Venezuela)  It takes too much space in the main article.  Spaceriqui 06:56, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Voter Turnout 

message: I suggest breaking up the politics section into a government and politics section, in an effort to make these chunks more manageable.  We should focus more on the Gov't aspect on the main page, and eventually move the more controversial sections of political life (ie Chavez) off the main page.
Check out the United States and the es:Venezuela entries as examples.  What do others think? - Spaceriqui 20:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics vs. Gov't 

message: I'm looking forward to found the Wikipedia:WikiProject Venezuela. I had the idea of creating it when I first made the portal. The project will have the main objective of centrating efforts into a more complete information and a higher quality of the articles in Wikipedia, other media in the sister projects, and the portal itself.
However, the rules say that I should have at least five to ten members willing to integrate and contribute to the wikiproject. So if some of you guys want to join in, then leave me a message, or in this page. I will be back in a few days to see how things are going on. 
Go to Wikipedia:Wikiproject/List_of_proposed_projects#Venezuela and list yourselves if you are willing to join.
--Alex Coiro 05:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject Venezuela 

message: The new 8 star flag is posted, but could someone change the crest. The white horse is now facing leftward head looking forward instead of facing rightward looking behind. 69.51.153.89 18:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's best if we wait until we have an accurate flag and COA image until we switch them out.  If you can help provide information as to what the new COA & flag should look like, :Commons:Image talk:Flag of Venezuela.svg would be the best place to share that info, though I'll watch this page and relay what should be. ¦ Reisio 09:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just heard about this too. It was in the Newspaper in Barbados today. Chavez's revolution galloping along - CaribDigita 00:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

text: According to this BBC article and a comment here, the new star is for the former province of Guayana (note the a before the y) which consisted of today's Venezuelan states of Bolívar State, Amazonas State and Delta Amacuro State. There is also a mention of this province in the article on the First_Republic_of_Venezuela. Dayv 02:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New flag

message: Im proposing a new way of handling this topic. On the main page, you give some UNPOLITICAL facts about venezuela, much like cia world factbook. Then, the reader can choose between a number of more detailed articles of venezuela WITH POLITICAL BIAS. For example, you add 3 buttons at the bottom of the main text with LEFTIST, CENTRIST and RIGHTIST point of view of the political/historical events. Readers can now choose whatever view they want to click on and read on. This NPOV thing simply doesnt exist when one is discussing politics. Its an illusion to think that you can take a neutral stance when it comes to venezuela. And i think that this "LEFTIST RIGHTIST CENTRIST" concept should be introduced in ALL politically loaded articles. 131.130.138.246 14:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now you can come and argue what is leftist and what is rightist, but i think that its easier for rightist wikipediaists to find a concensus-article among themselves, and publish it, rather than for rightists to try to find a middle road with leftists. Besides, its more informative to read different opinions rather than one so called NPOV article heavily contested such as this one.131.130.138.246 14:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Having 3 different articles

message: Excuse my ignorance, but how do I edit the contents of the infobox? I want to put the numbers into SI (ISO 31, ISO 1000) format. I can't seem to find the contents on the Edit pages.Blaise 09:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing the infobox?

message: "There are hundreds of thousands of people living in Venezuela, and most are from African countries." What the hell is that supposed to mean? --84.249.252.211 17:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume it means that there are hundreds of thousands of people living in Venezuela that can trace their ancestry to African countries 67.53.75.42 17:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that is true, but still the statement "There are hundreds of thousands of people living in Venezuela, and most are from African countries." is not accurate.--Ozzyprv 05:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Err... 

message: The Continent map (where Venezuela is colored green) is wrong. Notice Lake Maracaibo, the "hole aperture" at the top of the lake is too wide. This map needs to be redone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.8.22.213 (talk) 02:14, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Continent Map

message: I've just finished copyediting a 1914 encyclopedia article on Venezuela. It's not much practical use, but it may interest some as an example of what was being written about the country 90 years ago. I note it contains a section on education; whilst we have a list of universities in Venezuela, we don't seem to have an education article for the country at all. Hmm... Shimgray | talk | 22:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old snapshot 

message: What does Bolivarian mean in the name of the state?  Could this be explained in the origins section?
--Eddylyons 19:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Simón Bolívar, obviously. ;) —Nightstallion (?) 00:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Note: It's already explained in the infobox, but it was likely unreadable to you due to the double-small text size. I've changed that. —Nightstallion (?) 00:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bolivarian?