Talk:Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu/Archive 1

message: Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
Just a few ideas,
I think the general entry for Daito-ryu is pretty good however I'd like to see it expanded a bit and have something more added concerning the techniques of the art rather than just arguments between different groups about rightful succession.
The current entry states that Takeda Tokimune did not appoint a successor, which is true according to all the sources which I have read from places like Aiki News/www.aikidojournal.com and from what I heard while studying the art in Japan. Later it mentions the 'mainline' of Daito-ryu and identifies neither Kondo's Shimbukan organization or Kato's Daito-kai organization as representing the 'mainline'. This is bound to raise some eyebrows as they are the two groups who argue the most that they represent the mainline; Kondo as having the greatest claim in terms of licenses and Kato and Arisawa having the greatest claim in terms of time directly under Takeda. 
It is probably better to avoid the use of the term 'mainline' altogether as it tends to be used to label other traditions as somehow illigitimate while all the people we are mentioning here have long associations with Takeda-sensei.
It is my feeling that it would be better to keep an encyclopdia entry inclusive of all true information rather than as a vehicle for the promotion of a particular perspective.
Matt
:Matt There is so much room for expansion on this article - please do.  I was also thinking that the Aikijujutsu article should be merged with this one.  I did not put in the merge tag for before I had some input.  What do you think?Peter Rehse 00:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the subject of who is mainline I think the word 'mainline' is the wrong word to use. But maybe 'mainstream' seeing as Kondokai is the most "popular" form of Daito-Ryu. I'm sure there is a way to convey that one school is more popular then the other without reducing the others to inferiority. Gelsamel 02:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself! 

message: Still needs a pici though.Peter Rehse 05:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Promotion

message: I deplore the fact that "Aikijujutsu" directly leads towards Daito-Ryu; Takeda-Ryu is even older and hasn't its own website...
Response: The only traditional "Takeda ryu" with a verifiable history and lineage that I know of is a school of kyujutsu which specializes in archery while on horseback.
I believe that you are referring to the Nakamura-ha Takeda Ryu which most believe to be a modern composite art employing portions of Kukishin Ryu and other more modern arts.
When I was first living in Japan Nakamura-sensei was promoting his art as a sogo bujutsu rather than a school of aikijujutsu and referred to the empty handed grappling in his art as Takeda ryu aikido. I have seen others refer to portions of his curriculum as aikido and other portions as aiki no jutsu since then.
Some of the controversy, of which there is no shortage is discussed here:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-15229.html
You see that the school has its own website as do several of its branches.
Don't take my word for it. Ask questions at places like Koryu.com or Hoplos who have scholars with legitimate credentials specializing the history of Japanese budo and bujutsu systems who have no vested interest in the answer. If you wish you should start a separate page on "Nakamura-ha Takeda Ryu" (which he doesn't refer to as an aikijujutsu system but rather as a sogo bujutsu sytem). Many may be interested in the teachings of Nakamura's system. I exchanged e-mails with a Tomiki Ryu aikidoka who trained with Nakamura-sensei and he was very satisfied and enthusiastic about his training there.--Mateo2006 22:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  And Takeda-Ryu? 

message: Because I have recently been graded Rokkyu I receive a copy of Keiko Techo 3rd Edition for Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai English Version, I'm curious as to how legal it would be if I could post a few excerpts from this manual.
Also, last day of training with Kawabe-sensei today! He is so awesome :D Gelsamel 00:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Keiko Techo 

message: We have a link to the Rengokai organization which I identified as a Saigo-ha lineage because they use the same term to refer to their art as the Saigo-ha which is not used by Kondo or Kato's group, nor used by the Takumakai (or legimate offshoots from Ohgami or Okabayashi's group), or the Kodokai (or the Roppokai or the Yonezawa offshoots).
Futhermore there is identification on their website of Saigo Shiro and Houei Yamashita as being Daito-ryu practitioners. That Saigo studied Daito-ryu is denied by major Daito-ryu figures such as Kondo and by the Kodokan where he began training at a very young age. I can't see why this website would identify these figures if they were not of this lineage.
Let's hear some dialogue on this.
Also registered posters are always taken more seriously than anonymous ones.--Mateo2006 05:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rengokai 

message: I heard that aiki-jujutsu is also an internal martial art (at least in the higher levels) similar to aikido.
Can anyone fluent in Japanese or lives in Japan confirm this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.128.230 (talk) 11:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've never heard anyone distinguish Japanese martial arts as "internal" or "external", including aikido, which I practice.  I've only ever heard those terms used to classify Chinese martial arts.  Japanese martial arts are more apt to be distinguished as "hard" (goho), or "soft" (juho); a distinction that is similar to that of internal vs external, but ultimately very different. Bradford44 17:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aiki-jujutsu an Internal art? 

message: This article gives quite a bit of information on the founding and history of aiki-jujutsu, but as an outsider I notice that it offers no information on what exactly it is. All I can glean from the article is that it's an unarmed grappling martial art. Would it be appropriate for someone to add a description of its basic style and techniques? Vlcice 03:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What *is* aiki-jujutsu? 

message: Bradford44 gave the following advice for this article. I thought that it might be helpful to others who'd like to see the article improve.
:"If you're interested in taking the article further, the following things still need improvement:
:*Citations for statements such as the following, found under 'The Horikawa Branch': "The Kodokai was founded by students of Kodo Horikawa (1894-1980), whose distinctive interpretation of 'aiki' movements can be seen in the movements of his students." This is basic factual background information that requires a source. Not every sentence, but certainly every grouping of related statements needs a citation. 
:*The article desperately needs a history section. Explain the 1000+ year lineage that Daito-ryu claims, beginning with Minamoto Yoshimitsu studying the bodies of the dead, etc... Make sure to acknowledge that this is the claim of Takeda Sokaku, and some people dispute it for lack of evidence. 
:*Classification of techiques needs some kind of introduction, explanation, and context. Right now I can only imagine that it is entirely meaningless to a non-martial arts practitioner. 
:If you want to discuss further, we should probably do it on the Daito-ryu page so others can participate. I'd love to see this article move to GA, though. Bradford44 04:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's right, just document the controversy. In addition to a physical description of the art, and the above suggestions, I think the article needs a little expansion on Daito-ryu's external influence, also. Bradford44 13:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ideas for improving status of the article. 

message: Our Wiki rules state that "for a historical figure (a person born before the first year of Meiji (1868)), always use" the family name first. For those born after 1868 use the Western order. I always wondered why? Did Japan become a Western country after 1868? They certainly didn't adopt this convention themselves and we don't adopt a similar convention in Wiki for countries like Korea.
Daito-ryu persents a awkward situation in that the proper Wiki way of render the founder of Daito-ryu is Takeda Sokaku while his son's name should be written Tokimune Takeda. I think this is quite hard to follow for the average reader. It would seem a consant rule for name order would better serve ease in reading than a close following of the Wiki rule. Thoughts out there?--Mateo2006 22:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think its that confusing to simply call Takeda Sokaku "Sokaku", and Tokimune Takeda "Tokimune". Also, using more pronouns would be fine, as long as they strictly adhere to the rule that the pronoun always refers to the person most recently named. Also, the first time their names are mentioned, kanji and correct name order and romanization should be indicated parenthetically, further clearing up any ambiguity regarding their names. If you don't do this consistently, then no one can tell which is the first name, and which is the surname. If you start switching the name order on a case-by-case basis, then people knowledgable about WP:MOS-JP may start believing that the dates of birth are typos or something, which hurts the overall reliability of the article. Bradford44 12:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming Conventions 

message: I don't think the family tree is coming out clearly enough to be a good support for the article. I'm going to try to see if I can adjust the size. Failing this perhaps we could redo it?
:Adding the family tree was kind of a whim that I wasn't sure would work out. Even at its full size, it is difficult to read - I guess I thought it might be useful as something that could be clicked on for more information. Making it bigger just messes up the balanced look of the page. I would greatly prefer some pictures of actual practice, the article is in desperate need of more pictures. Bradford44 03:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family Tree 

message: Greetings. I'm only vaguely aware of the Daito-ryu tradition, but aren't there weapon-arts taught in the Daito-ryu as well as grappling? I seem to recall viewing a joint-demonstration of DR that included kenjutsu. Does the DR, or perhaps a specific DR-branch, teach weapon-arts as well? (Note: I'm not talking about Takeda-ryu). If so, then the "arts taught" could be updated with (as an example): "Kenjutsu - Roppokai-branch" "Hanbojutsu - Roppokai, Tokimune-branch" and along those lines. If it becomes to complex to include that info the info-box then its no prob. Fred26 06:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The arts taught in the Daito-ryu 

message: I'm going to try to add kanji to the techniques section, as well as convert the lists into a table, but I wanted to know first what "Hiden Mokuroku" was there to indicate where it is in parentheses following "Shoden". Bradford44 19:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Techniques section