Talk:Swedes (tribe)

message: Good afternoon. I feel delighted to be in the presence of such afficionados of ancient identity and obvious skilled linguists, who have been with me ever since I started on Wikipedia. I'm starting to take more of an interest in this quarter of the globe so rather than just jump in I thought I would start slow.
The sea people theory. Does anyone remember Mount Saevo in Pliny Book IV.96 that forms a bay called the Codanus (Kattegat) and is next to the big island Scatinavia? Saevo is a nominative. In such cases the stem (here unattested) Saevon-. The plural would be saevones, which is pretty much most of *saiwi-oniz, is it not? So, it wouldn't be true that there are no other derived roots. One might suppose that the mountainous country around Oslo and Gotland got its name from the people and they in turn from the low country in which they at first resided, part of which is still called sealand. That being so, there seems less reason to tag this theory as less likely; that is, it seems less likely that this theory is less likely. English double negatives, you know.
But there are other considerations are there not? The Indo-europeans had no word for sea and Germanic *saiwi- is not an Indo-European word even though spoken by Indo-europeans. We don't see any other Sui- anywhere in the IE range. There is no justification at all for assuming it must be IE. Do you know of any?
On the other hand, "one's own kin" is pretty tempting and is Indo-European and has many parallels, such as the Roman use of Nostri to mean our men. I suppose you might even tie it in to a possible meaning of Goth as "goodman". My own thoughts were, there is a possibility that the IE entering the big island, which only recently actually was a big island (Ancylus lake), started calling it an island because the natives did, and furthermore took on the name of the native tribe, which is what actually happened in Finland. One supposes that it might be related to such names as Sabme and Saami. There is no genetic or "legitimate" descent, of course, but when one people take over names from another, anything can happen by analogy. Thus Rejkjavik became rinky-dink 60 years ago. Anyway, we must have got sea from somewhere, true? If sea and sealand, why not sea people?
Some might think this reasonable and some not. It seems to me though it is weighty enough to merit equal consideration.Dave 18:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Schagerstrom, sea people and what not

message: Can you say no/yes? And tell why/why not.  Haabet 14:14, 2005 May 11 (UTC)
:Haabet, it is you who have to explain why.--Wiglaf 19:36, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand what you're trying to say.--Wiglaf 21:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Uncle G, for removing the tag :). Your comment was very welcome, because I believe that Haabet was more interested in provoking me as the main contributor of the article than in improving either Wikipedia or Wiktionary.--Wiglaf 19:25, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Move to Wiktionary?

message: *An Article in a Encyclopedia, do not only contain a list of words and the origin of these words. Special if the connection between the words only are the first letter.   
*A other problem had any Encyclopedia "Suiones" as Article?   
*The expert in Tacitus, Allan A. Lund daid: Sverber/Suebor=Suiones, but where are Sverber/Suebor in the Article?   
*Sueones at Adam of Bremen is probably a defect, from a copy of Tacitus.   
Haabet 10:45, 2005 May 12 (UTC)    
    
Haabet,    
*you are not capable of composing a correct English sentence. I suggest you propose changes on talk pages, and do not edit article space directly. We'll just have to clean up after you. Also, you may want to consider to edit the wikipedia project in your native language instead.   
*I do not understand what "problems" you are pointing out here. This article is not a wordlist. As for your Sverber/Sueones point, what do you propose? Do you have any evidence or reference to the effect that the Adam von Bremen text may be corrupt?   
dab (ᛏ) 11:10, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems

message: In opposition to the above failed thumb-in-the-middle-of-the-hand discussion, I'll hereby defend both (my favourite author) Dick Harrison and the stand point that viking Svear is approximate the same people as Tacitus Suiones:
*ordinary people speak about true and false, but when handling advanced knowledge, we need true, false and unknown.
*Dick Harrison is a modernist Swedish historician, and as such bound by a problematizing, critical role against prejudicies, that was very frequent during the Great Power time of Sweden up to the 19th century. As a professor he must attain that role and declare uncertainties when there are topics that requires research, especially since the current day archeologists and linguists nowadays are independent collaborative areas that require that degree of freedom,
*we, on the other hand, are wikipedians who shall attain a NPOV position, and all the same create a consistent history, where we create threads and connections to make a fuller whole, and if we find a possible thread, we can assume connections where scientific sources previously have assumed connections. We don't need all doubts that is Dick Harrison's job to declare, we can heed them, but we don't need to use them.
Said: Rursus 08:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dick Harrison again 

message: On the name section currently reads:
:As the dominions of the Swedish kings grew, the name was applied also to include the Geats during the Middle Ages, but later it returned to referring only the people inhabiting the original tribal lands in Svealand, in opposition to the Geats.
To my knowledge "Swedes" (swedish "Svenskar") came to include Geats sometime in the middle ages, which the text above says. However, I'm not aware of there being a return to "Swedes" (Swedish "Svenskar") exkluding Geats after the middle ages. Again, the issue is becoming confusing due to the mixing of "Swedes" and "Svear" in English (see Talk above) while it in Swedish language means two different things (Swedes includes both Geats and Svear, while Svear, does not).KarlXII 13:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it refers to the Swedish word svear. AFAIK, the collective noun svear and it adjective svensk were at first ambiguous having the people of Svealand (tribal Swedes) as their central sense and all the subjects of the Swedish kings in their extended sense (including Geats, Gotlanders, Saamis and Finns). What happened was that the two forms specialized during the later Middle ages, so that the former adjectival form svensk became a noun denoting the subjects of the king, while the original noun came to denote only the people of Svealand.--Berig 13:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Help yourself.--Berig 14:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello guys – it seems this problem should be solved by the same method as by disambiguating between different kinds of Plutos. The rules of naming and terms, says that the common English language word usage should be followed for easy search and referencing. However, since Kalle/12, Berig and I User:Rursus all know that the Swedish language is very much more precize and perfected in infinite glory in this extent (svear/sviones/svenskar/kålrötter = swedes/swedes/swedes/swedes and götar/gutar/goter/hårdrockare/bråkstakar = goths/goths/goths/goths/goths), some disambiguation-parenthesizing like "Swede (viking nation)", "Swede (roman iron age people)", "Swede (modern nation)", "swede (food)" should be used to simulate the vaaast superiority of the Swedish language in the very vague (well not really) and fuzzy English language. ;^#) Said: Rursus 16:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I have been brooding myself and once rewrote the article massively to clarify it, but chose not to save. Karl XII, the use of Swedes and svear is confusing and was confusing. Ambiguity is an essential property of written and spoken language that we have to live with. According to Nationalencyklopedin, svear was used also for the Geats as early as the 9th century, and Nordisk familjebok states that in the early 20th century, svensk had almost replaced svear as the name for the people of Sweden. Which ever way you turn it, svear, svenskar and Swedes have always been used ambiguously. However, I don't feel that Swedes is used ambiguously on WP, in respect to Geats. If you exclude a few articles relating to Swedish civil wars in the Middle Ages (Ragnvald Knaphövde is the one the comes to my mind), it is my impression that there is no or little need for disambiguating. AFAIK, no one here adheres to the Götaland theory.--Berig 11:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: PS. It is not only Beowulf translations that have made Swedes the standard translation of svear, but also the fact that Swedes are called svíar in Icelandic. This means that every translation of works from Norse mythology or Norse sagas translates svíar with Swedes.--Berig 11:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swedes including / excluding Geats 

message: User:Berig did this revert with the edit summary that it had been an "unexplained removal". I would have thought that the removal was self-explanatory. The footnote that I cut is rather incomprehensible. Berig just puts it back in, I suspect without having read it. And "early sources" is just a peacock term. It is also false - the Norse sources are medieval texts, written half a millennium or so after the period that the article seems to be about. As usual, it is horribly difficult to change anything in an article where User:Wiglaf and User:Berig are the main contributors. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 08:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's leave the personal attacks out of it, shall we? They serve no purpose except to undermine your position. The footnote was worded in a confusing manner, but I think I have clarified it. Calling the sagas "early sources" seems totally uncontroversial to me. If you want to add a footnote reminding the reader that they date from a later period, be my guest. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not see any clarification of the incomprehensible, ungrammatical sentence that Berig put back in. If Briangotts does cannot understand it either, it is better to just throw it out. And 'early sources' is just plain WP:PEACOCK. Thirteenth-century texts are late in connection with first millennium history. That is the problem with these sources, and that is why modern historians do not rely on them. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 15:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Berig / Wiglaf are experts on this subject so their opinion generally matter; but here I prefer the lead to be like the of Pieter Kuiper, since it is not so much an issue of contents as of format... (imho) / Fred-J 01:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Berig's knee-jerk revert 

message: http://sweden.se/society/history-of-sweden/
This is Sweden's government website and they know there own history. The language is German based not the people. Facts are  Germany does not have a DNA project!. So how can you prove they have Germanic blood. And Swedish peoples DNA is most similar in ratios to other Central European countries like Czech Republic and Poland.
Google, Jomsborg, Jomsborg Vikings, Skane slavic, Skane slavic pottery, slavic pagans, King Eric of Pomerania
Does it hurt to do a little research?.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.7.110 (talk) 10:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first known dwelling place, found in southern Sweden, dates from around 12,000 BC. 

message: I think "Gutar" was the people of the island, but they were not just Swedish some 700-800 years ago. The island was important to the Hanseatic League, Denmark, Lithuania, Poland as well. About early Swedish history we know that lots of Götaland and the Geets was re-written and lost. Especially the parts of Folkungaätten , The House of Folkunga 83.249.130.216 (talk) 05:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Note that this is not a forum just for discussion, so what are you suggesting with this comment? TylerBurden (talk) 05:27, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gotland