Talk:Jacob Riis

message: I was reading my history book and came across a section about Jacob Riis and how he would stage his photographs to make them more effective, especially since cameras back then had a slower shutter speed. (My history book is A People and A Nation, Sixth Edition, published by Houghton Mifflin Company; it can be found on page 532.) This seems like very important information to not have included in this article; I do not, however, know much more than what my history book has said about him. If someone knows about this, I think it would be a good contribution to this article. 68.92.246.151 (talk) 18:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Staging Photos

message: I have removed 
Perhaps far worse, his judgments about each ethnic group follow prevalent, ages-old stereotypes: for example, in the two chapters devoted to the section of New York called "Jewtown," the Jews are usurious, and willing to starve their children because they are enslaved by love of silver (indeed, the Jews' scrimping and saving is viewed as a vice, whereas in other chapters other ethnicities are criticized for their failure to save money). The immigrants for whom Riis reserves the least sympathy are the Chinese. In the chapter titled "Chinatown," Riis accepts, without examination, the belief that Chinese men entrap native-born white girls in "white slavery" through various devious methods, including opium addiction. He believes that the only solution to this problem is to allow the Chinese man to bring his wife from China so as to avoid entrapment of white girls in unsanctified living arrangements. Part of Riis's enmity toward the Chinese seems to stem from their supposed inscrutability, their refusing to allow themselves to be known (an observation perhaps enforced by the mysteriousness of their written language, at least to Riis) and, worse, their refusal to allow him into their homes to be photographed. Readers suspect that the Chinese men's resistance to Riis's photographic invasions is what damns them in Riis's eyes.
pending at least a sourced non-OR and NPOV version. This is a good article, you need sources and coherent prose. The above is a personal opinion/analysis and as such violates policy. EconomicsGuy (talk) 14:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The last two sentences seem mere speculation and thus unsalvageable, but the earlier ones purport to be summaries, and more need toning down than specific chapter and page citations.  "Far worse" and "without examination" for example may be true but aren't facts.  Jim.henderson (talk) 15:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Right but it's pretty much just more of the same. The remaining part of the section is fairly well sourced and I see no reason why we can't at least require the same citation standard here. I didn't mind the rest of the criticism section but this was added later, after the GA nom (judging from the article history), and I think we need to be careful not to ruin that. Some criticism sections have a tendency to become pile-ons and it would be a shame if that was allowed to happen here. EconomicsGuy (talk) 15:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Darn it, it's more fun to argue against idiots than people who are paying attention.  I was going to go on about the delight of reading about the mysteriously lascivious Chinaman and the stingy Jew (I'll dine with each of those ethnicities, though alas not those stereotypes, in Brooklyn Heights Tuesday evening).  Anyway I followed the link to How the Other Half Lives which turns out to be the right place, if any, to pile on anything that ought to be piled on for topics like this.  So, assuming I don't get too tired, I'll study both articles and see if something ought to be moved from this to that, and whether something ought to be lost in translation, since the summary prose that you didn't cut is also overexcited in parts.  And wow, I also love Riis's chapter about the Color Line in New York, which isn't mentioned in either article.  I mean, despite his confirmations of contemporary prejudices, the guy wasn't dead set against minorities in general.  Many interesting things to do, if only I can provide the careful attention the job requires.  Jim.henderson (talk) 01:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of text

message: We're told:
:His only companion was a stray dog he met shortly after his arrival.
True. Or anyway for that particular time, upon that particular arrival. Riis arrived in NYC three or more times. He'd arrive in NYC, give up hope there and go to the interior, give up hope there and arrive back in NYC, etc; as is explained very clearly in any biography. And this isn't just biographical filler, as each experience seems to have taught him something (at least as he wrote it up in hindsight).
There's a whole lot more to be done in this article.
Oh well, it could be worse, much worse. Check this fix to a "Good Article". -- Hoary (talk) 10:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Riis's arrival in NYC. Or rather, arrivals.

message: Until a couple of minutes ago, the article told us:
:When Riis was 11, his younger brother drowned.  Riis would be haunted for the rest of his life by the images of his drowning brother and of his mother staring at his brother's empty chair at the dinner table.
A story from a source that I regard as pretty dodgy (see above).
This could be true, but if so I'd expect it to appear in Riis's autobiography. Searching through the PG etext of this for the strings "brother", "chair" and "drown" (separately, of course), the closest I see is unspecified grief (chair not mentioned) over the death of unspecified brothers. So it's not in his autobiography. If it turns up in some reliable source, it can go back in; meanwhile, it's out. -- Hoary (talk) 14:03, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an inaccurate version of what Ware writes in her biography, which is available as a horribly OCR'd text-file-within-web-page and an excellent PDF file. -- Hoary (talk) 14:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "images of his drowning brother"

message: In this edit, AlexGWU (in his/her own words) Replaced infobox - Article was being reviewed for GA - Why overhaul and destroy instead of just take care of what was requested to qualify for GA?
What was requested in the GA reassessment business has pretty much been taken care of already. Though I don't intend to boast, I did much of this myself. Perhaps the article now qualifies as "Good". If so, this doesn't mean it's actually good. Indeed, it's pretty bad, as will be clear if you compare it with a good biography of Riis.
Why overhaul? Why not "just take care of what was requested to qualify for GA"? Because I'm much more interested in good than in "Good" articles. To that end, I've already removed dodgy looking claims (noting these on the discussion page), replaced dubious sources with good sources, and replaced links to Google pages for the books (pages that at most had partial scans) with links to Project Gutenberg texts and Harvard University Library photographic scans, where these exist.
Why destroy? From the context, I guess this edit was meant. Before it, the article told us:
:Jacob August Riis (May 3, 1849 - May 26, 1914), was a Danish-American social reformer, muckraking journalist and photographer. [...]
:Born 	May 3, 1849(1849-05-03) Ribe, Denmark
:Died 	May 26, 1914 (aged 65)
:Nationality 	American
:Field [sic]	Social reform, journalism, photography
After it, the article instead told us:
:Jacob August Riis (May 3, 1849 - May 26, 1914), was a Danish-American social reformer, muckraking journalist and photographer. [...]
So the "destruction" was of duplication -- and duplication in slightly odd English ("Field" for three fields) and with simplification (one nationality rather than two).
Seems strange to call this "destruction". But if it's destruction, I'm all for destruction. 
When the article became "Good", it didn't have an infobox. Even Wikipedia-recognized "Goodness" doesn't require an infobox, and actual quality certainly doesn't require it. -- Hoary (talk) 06:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox

message: The section is named "Criticism", therefore it is implied that the information in that section contains some criticism. A quotation from the autobiography alone is WP:OR since it is criticism made by the Wikipedia editor who added the information. Please add some reliable secondary source that criticises Riis for those statements. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK I fixed it: let's call it "Criticism and self criticism" :)This is legitimate material and an autobiog is considered a RS for the person;s own beliefs, which is what we are considering. Rjensen (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Reverted as there isn't anything remotely self-criticism about that paragraph. Please refrain from making original research. As a fellow historian you should also know better than to engage in such anachronistical editorialising. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I anticipated an article which would basically attack Riis for racism. This one aims for balance and provides much information in a non-judgmental manner. I wish there were more in Wikipedia like it. WmDKing (talk) 13:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A good article