Talk:The Kingdom of This World

message: This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 04:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WikiProject class rating

message: Hello all! I'm one of the Wikipedia 'regulars' who have volunteered to assist with this WikiProject. I'm available to offer help and advice with most aspects of working in the Wikipedia environment, from the technical parts of WikiMarkup to taking an article through the Good and Featured article processes to navigating the shoals and rapids of our sometimes peculiar community. I've watchlisted this page, so if you have any questions (anything at all!), you can leave them here or on my personal talk page, which is linked in my signature.
To get you started (and I'm sure jbmurray has covered this so hope you don't mind the repetition), the first thing you need do with the article is add referenced content. At this stage it's not too important where it goes, what it is, or even what it looks like... as long as it's relevant and cited to a reliable source. The cite can simply be a parenthesised note at the end of your sentence/paragraph stating the book+author+publisher+date+page reference for now, though if you want to have a go at using our citation templates feel free! You might find the style guideline at WikiProject Novels (here) useful in getting a broad idea how to lay out the article, but much of that will come after we've bulked it up. All the best, EyeSerenetalk 20:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, EyeSerene. We appreciate your help!  jbmurray has set the deadline for Wednesday the 20th for our initial round of sources to be posted.  So, the aim is to start editing and going through our sources in the next week.  Cheers. --Mstmaurice (talk) 18:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good :) I'll keep checking back from time to time, but you know where my talk page is if you need anything. EyeSerenetalk 08:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  To editors from the Magical Realism Reconsidered WikiProject ... 

message: Hey guys, I've been looking for some sources and found a few on JSTOR ... but I haven't had time to read them yet. I'm putting all the titles here.
So I suppose each person should take a few real articles and one review (I just checked out the reviews... they're all pretty useless and add nothing really). Let me know which you want, and I'll send them over so we can see if they really will be useful. I'll look for more.
It looks like Max has abandoned us, probably for a Spanish project page, which means we're down to 4. We have a total of 254 pages to get through, which means 63.5 per person. Keep that in mind when choosing articles... or just send me an e-mail and i'll get back to you with random articles, but we need to get this read quick.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisweberbr (talk • contribs) 01:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: I've taken a look at a few articles to make sure they are relevant, and they are, so if we need 6 articles per person, here are my 6, chosen randomly (the first 6 listed).
Patterns of Repetition in "The Kingdom of This World"
The Haitian Revolution in Interstices and Shadows: A Re-Reading of Alejo Carpentier's "The Kingdom of This World"
"The Human Comedy" in el Reino de Este Mundo
The Discourse of Contradiction: Metaphor, Metonymy and "El reino de este mundo"
El cuerpo político: Carnaval, corporeidad y revolución en El reino de este mundo de Alejo Carpentier
Metamorphosis as Revolt: Cervantes' Persiles y Segismunda and Carpentier's El reino de este mundo
Unless one of you REALLY wants one of mine.
--Chris Weber (talk) 02:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final Source List 

message: Hey Chris,
thanks so much for all the articles you've posted!!
Here are a few questions/suggestions
- would you like me to look for more articles or do you think that so far we should concentrate on sorting through these ones?
- 6 articles per person sounds great, I can even offer to read more if that helps, however instead of each person reading random articles it may be a lot easier if we split articles up according to themes and maybe think of sections right now, so that each person becomes a sort of "expert" in one area and can read articles more easily since they will all be on a common topic (thus become familiar with technical terms pertaining to that area, if any, etc). Just a logistical thought that may save us time in the future, let me know what you think. 
Thanks again!
--Svetlana 365 (talk) 05:30, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles 

message: Hello everyone! Chris, I must commend you on the work you've done so far. I've been battling some tonsillitis for the past few days - it hasn't been pretty. Anyway, I got a chance to look over the list you compiled so far, it looks great. I ran a search on metalib for articles and it seems like you've pretty much collected all the useful articles that are readily available to us. In terms of books, here's a list of some that I think might be worth taking a look at (all are available at Koerner):
Carpentier: Una revisión lineal - Dinko Cvitanovic 
Alejo Carpentier : a comprehensive study - Bobs M. Tusa  
Alejo Carpentier : estudios sobre su narrativa - Esther P. Mocega-González  
Carpentier, El Reino de este mundo - Richard A. Young PhD  
Cómo leer a Alejo Carpentier - Patrick Collard  
Alchemy of a Hero : a comparative study of the works of Alejo Carpentier and Mario Vargas Llosa - Bobs M. Tusa  
There's also quite a few (lenghty) books about the Haitian revolution if we wanted to provide some background information for our project. If we plan on using any of these books we'll have to act fast and put in a request to get them at the library because it seems we're not the only ones interested in Carpentier at the moment. Anyway, see you all in class.
Cheers,--Patrussell (talk) 17:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Books 

message: Hey groupies! I think our little chat today in class was pretty good, I'm looking forward to working with all of you throughout the term. As a follow up, I checked out the Carpentier group's page and they are most definitely responsible for sniping some of the books that we're interested in - I'll send them some messages to see if they'll share with us. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_General_in_His_Labyrinth is a page by UBC students that reached featured article status. It is also based on a book, and I think the general scheme of it is a good structure for us to work from. 
Let me know what you all think.
--Patrussell (talk) 18:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup.  Both The General in His Labyrinth and El Señor Presidente are articles on books written by UBC students that achieved featured status.  They both therefore offer good models for you guys. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Structure 

message: The annotated bibliography is due on Monday, Feb. 8th (that's 2 Mondays from now). How about we set the deadline to read everything as next Monday. This way we'll finish all our articles/books by the end of the weekend, which gives us time to discuss anything that needs discussing and get work started on the bibliographies.
Thoughts? Decided your final readings lists yet?
--Chris Weber (talk) 23:32, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Annotated Bibliography 

message: Hi guys!! thanks for all the great work so far first of all. As for the articles, I am working on the next 4 after Chris's (articles 7, 8, 9, 10) as well as the two other ones that I have posted under one of my previous posts. Please let me know if I can help someone else, I can read a few more articles if need be. 
Also: Question - we dont need to hand in the annotated bibliography in class right? we just have to post it here by the end of tomorrow (monday 8)?
Happy reading --Svetlana 365 (talk) 01:39, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles for tomorrow 

message: Sup dudes. So I tackled the last six articles from our list and ran into some interesting stuff, and some not so interesting stuff. Sadly, I had to axe two of the articles from the list as they really didn't have any information that was specifically applicable to our topic. I definitely think we stumbled upon a gem with the Paul B. Miller article. It definitely offers the most innovative and interesting analysis of El reino. I'm starting to get a good flavor of the important themes in the book, and some of the rhetorical strategies that Carpentier used to enrich his prose. My portion of the bibliography is accessible on my user page (just click my name and it should take you there). In the event that you guys want to consolidate everything on one page, we can just devote this section of the talk page to that - just edit this section then copy/paste your contribution below mine. I'll begin by spamming my stuff:
The Dialects of Heresy and Authority in Borges and Carpentier
Eleni Kefala
This brief article discusses the idea of cultural translation and its related effects, citing the works of Borges and Carpentier as examples. Cultural translation is a theory originally propsed by Homi K. Bhabha. In the simplest sense, cultural translation refers to the process of morphing, or "translation" information from a foreign source so that it becomes relevant and significant for a new specific culture. According to Bhabha, the process of cultural translation is also intimately linked to the idea of hybridization. In the article, Kefala argues that Carpentier's El reino de este mundo is rich with examples of hybridization. Specifically, Kefala develops the idea that the interaction between what is distinctly colonial and what is distinctly "negro" results in the creation of a third "hybrid" entity in the novel, that is neither colonial, nor negro, but simply the "other." Kefala further argues that the third hybrid entity is best described as an example of cultural heresy; in the sense that the hybrid entity is in fact a departure from its cultural origins.
Two Paths to the Boom: Carpentier, Asturias, and the Performative Split 
Stephen Henighan
While this article is rather lengthy, there is not much information that was specifically related to El reino de este mundo. Instead the author discusses the origins, styles and motivational differences between Asturias and Carpentier. While both authors spent time in Paris during the height of the French surrealist era, they were both had vastly different experiences. Unlike Asturias, Carpentier was born of a rather privileged descent and was well known within French literary circles. This fact, presumably, helped shaped Carpentier as a writer. Asturias was regarded as more of an outsider in the European literary circles, and derived his sense of identity from the fact he identified himself with his Guatemalan heritage. Carpentier, on the other hand, seemed to be rather confused about where his literary allegiances were. Due to his upbringing, Carpentier spoke perfect French and was also a gifted writer in his tongue. While writing in the French surrealist tradition would have been entirely feasible, Carpentier chose to cast aspects of his French roots aside in favor of becoming a Spanish-American writer. As Henighan points out in this article, the influence of Carpentier's French heritage, can be seen the Spanish prose of his novels. As mentioned in the summary of The Dialects of Heresy and Authority in Borges and Carpentier the idea of hybridization is also extremely common across Carpentier's works. The most notable insight that this article provided is that Carpentier's uses hybridization to provide himself with a sense of identity that lies somewhere between his French colonial heritage and his Spanish-America heritage.
Analisis objetivo (O material) del primer Carpentier 
Rafael Bosch
Bosch's article gives quite a detailed account and analysis of the thematic and stylistic commonalities in Carpentier's collective works. Most interestingly is the rather lengthy discussion in the beginning of the article of the distinction between what distinguishes revolutionary from reactionary. Bosch argues that the fundamental difference between these two concepts is inevitably the notion of progress. Bosch stipulates that, the concept of progress and revolution are tightly linked, and that revolution does not occur without progress. While many latin-american authors explore the theme of revolution and its associated costs and benefits, very few choose to make an ideological distinction between revolution and reaction. Bosch points out that Carpentier's works reflect his ideological evolution as a writer, and that this evolution can be seen most clearly in Carpentier's perspective on revolution. For the purposes of our upcoming work, the most poignant aspect of this article is the discussion of Carpentier's perspective in El reino de este mundo. Bosch argues that this work, in particular, is a clear example of Carpentier providing literary commentary on the reactionary nature of the Haitian revolution. Carpentier's account of the "revolution" definitely does not constitute progress in any sense of the word; rather, it was a series of violent events, which were in many cases "reactions" to prevailing circumstances in society. The end result of which never truly produced progress, but instead produced cyclical violence that resulted in societal retrograde. Furthermore, this article offers a very lengthy analysis of the salient feature's of Carpentier's prose which would be a suitable source for a general subsection within our main article.
Blancas Y Negras: Carpentier and the Temporalities of Mutual Exclusion 
Paul B. Miller
Paul B. Miller's article offers an extremely interesting interpretation of Carpentier's writing. Miller explains that the temporally opposing forces of prospective Afro-Carribean culture and retrospective European culture play a significant role in Carpentier's writing. More specifically, Miller explores the role of music in Carpentier's works, with explicit focus on El reino de este mundo. He illustrates that Carpentier often uses metonymy in his works and music is the vessel through which this idea is conveyed. To the slaves and Afro-Caribbean population music is not only a tribute to their African roots, but also something that is to be passed forward to subsequent generations. It is in this sense that the author considers Afro-Caribbean music as prospective. Meanwhile, in the European tradition, music is something that is historical, that is meant to be created and marked in history for others to discover - retrospective. Miller takes an innovative approach to explaining they way in which music amplifies the apparent rift and friction between Afro-Caribbean and European cultures, and the significance of this subtle detail in El reino de este mundo.
--Patrussell (talk) 08:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consolidated Sources 

message: hey team, check this page for wiki references. hopefully it helps!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_tools
--Avneet86 (talk) 19:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: Hi all :) Svetlana's asked me to have a look at the article with the Good article criteria in mind. I'll do this shortly (if not over the weekend, then early next week), and post a sort of pre-review review below. Please bear in mind that because Good articles are reviewed by individual reviewers with differing approaches, my thoughts might not be 100% in line with what you'll get when you submit the article at WP:GAN, but hopefully I can give some useful guidance and an indication as to how close you are and what (if anything) needs to be addressed before going for the actual review. EyeSerenetalk 17:00, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-GA review 

message: The following is based on the six GA criteria, and would be what I'd mention if I was reviewing the article. I may add to this as I re-read the article, but I think it'll do for an initial assessment.
#Prose etc: there are various long compound sentences that could be split and instances of jargon. In keeping with writing for our target audience, the Manual of Style states "Writing should be clear and concise. Articles are supposed to introduce readers to topics, or remind them of what they had half-forgotten: it is not their purpose to dazzle readers with editors' learning or vocabulary. Plain English works best: avoid jargon, vague phrases, and unnecessary complexity." One school of thought is that we should where possible write as though for an intelligent 12-year old.
#*Example of a sentence that could be split: "This work was overall well-received and much attention has been paid to Carpentier's inclusion of magical realism in the novel, however some aspects of his style have been ignored by the academic community." ('however' is also the most overused word on Wikipedia!)
#*Example of over-complex writing: "In this spectacle situation, Carpentier is able to juxtapose the Europeans' experience of Mackandal's body falling into the flames with the autocthonous (Afro-Haitian) experience of Mackandal's body flying off the stake." Without additional explanation we can't really tell what the significance of this event is, and 'spectacle situation' and 'autocthonous' could be expanded upon.
#*Wikilinking: internally linking words is only necessary on their first occurrence, and then only when they add value to the article. Examples: Haitian Revolution is linked multiple times whereas terms like "hybridization", "voodoo" etc that a reader may wish to look up in more detail aren't.
#Referencing: the GA criteria call for "in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive  or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged". There are a number of assertions in the article that could do with explicit citations and perhaps even attribution; it can be helpful to our readers to indicate whose opinion we are reproducing. This is a general point - many of the article's statements are quite forthright, so we really ought to know whose thoughts they are. See I, the Supreme for a decent model.
#*Example:  "This adds to the key blend of marvellous fantasy and historical accuracy." needs a cite, and might benefit from being written something like "According to X, this adds to the key blend of marvellous fantasy and historical accuracy."
#*Plagiarism/copyright violations: I sincerely hope this comment doesn't offend anyone - that's not my intention at all - but the article needs to be thoroughly checked that it doesn't either directly reproduce another writer's words or paraphrase them too closely. I'm not implying this has happened, but because it's so easily done even with the best intentions I hope you understand it's something we have to mention.
#Coverage:
#*Example: the 'marvellous' is recurring theme is mentioned many times but not explored until near the end of the article. I wonder if there's a way to either give a brief explanation earlier in the article and/or to indicate that the word is being used in a particular sense (note that I placed it in quote marks in the article section heading, but italicising it might be another alternative?)
#Neutrality: this seems to be fine
#Stability: also fine
#Images: these are appropriately licensed and captioned, though for images that are non-free (eg :File:Henri Christophe.jpg) there are restrictions on where and when they can be used. It's not worth going into that in detail now - personally I'd probably just wait and see what the GA reviewer thinks.
Hope this helps. You're doing a really superb job with this and I look forward to seeing how it develops. If you need more detailed explanations or anything else, just ask :) EyeSerenetalk 09:42, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preliminary assessment