Talk:James Brown/Archive 2

message: Whoever add this, can't be right at all. The quote from Fred Wesley also doesn't make this more real. Of course Brown had knowledge about basic music theory! Just remember lines as "To the D, down D" (Doin' it to death), "Brown: You know when we would take it back to the key of F - what do you think of? Fred what would you think of the key of F? / Fred Wesley: Ah the key of F... basically I think fo ah... / Brown: Friendly! That's really grovin', that's groovin! Brother Maceo, Brother what...yeah, so what do you think of the key of F? / Maceo Parker: F... / Brown: And make it feel brother! / Maceo Parker: Freedom / ...some more dialogs... / Brown: Hit it now!" Band changes to F.
Furthermore James Brown played organ as well as keyboard as well as the guitar and the drums - so whatever you write, don't believe in anything Fred Wesley says (especially in "Hit Me, Fred"). One should not forget that James Brown and Fred Wesley also had personal differences. Fred Wesley also wrote, that he would never share a room with James Brown again, although they met in 2006 where Fred Wesley played a few trombone solos for James Browns new album "World against the grain", whichs making was documentated in a Rolling Stone article.
I would like to know where you read that James Brown could not read music? He sang the "Soul On Top" album and without reading the scores nobody would have been able to sing it as it sounds today.
=======================================================================
IN REPLY:
I disagree strongly with the above comments about Brown's musicianship. James Brown most definitely needed the input of his musicians. He told them what he wanted, and they delivered. Don't knock Fred Wesley. He is responsible for the musical arrangements of much of James Brown's greatest records. Fred Wesley's book is critical of Brown in many ways, but he always gives credit to James Brown for being the SOURCE of the music. 
Brown's real talent and genius cannot be judged according to the accepted definitions of musicianship. His Organ playing had the 'feel', but lacked the technique, and musical knowledge. Often, 'he got away with it', but he was very limited, and sometimes quite awful. This is not to take anything away from his real talents, which were absolutely unique and developed in spite of his technical limitations. This is true even of his singing, which as far as his vocal technique was concerned, broke every rule in the book!
One last thing.... I think the comparison with Duke Ellington is badly thought out. YES, both James Brown and Duke Ellington worked closely with their musicians to create their identities. But in no sense did Duke Ellington need the assistance of his musicians to help him overcome any limitations of his own. Duke Ellington could compose, arrange and direct any musicians that he chose to hire. James Brown on the other hand could not do this because he did not have the knowledge of music theory to direct his musicians. He needed their help to bring about his own unique ideas. 
For those that think I am putting James brown down in some way, let me say that ultimately, HE was the driving force, and the innovator, and just possibly the most important figure in Black music history. Timhuskisson 20:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Musicianship

message: IN REPLY:
I disagree strongly with the above comments about Brown's musicianship. James Brown most definitely needed the input of his musicians. He told them what he wanted, and they delivered. Don't knock Fred Wesley. He is responsible for the musical arrangements of much of James Brown's greatest records. Fred Wesley's book is critical of Brown in many ways, but he always gives credit to James Brown for being the SOURCE of the music. 
Brown's real talent and genius cannot be judged according to the accepted definitions of musicianship. His Organ playing had the 'feel', but lacked the technique, and musical knowledge. Often, 'he got away with it', but he was very limited, and sometimes quite awful. This is not to take anything away from his real talents, which were absolutely unique and developed in spite of his technical limitations. This is true even of his singing, which as far as his vocal technique was concerned, broke every rule in the book!
One last thing.... I think the comparison with Duke Ellington is badly thought out. YES, both James Brown and Duke Ellington worked closely with their musicians to create their identities. But in no sense did Duke Ellington need the assistance of his musicians to help him overcome any limitations of his own. Duke Ellington could compose, arrange and direct any musicians that he chose to hire. James Brown on the other hand could not do this because he did not have the knowledge of music theory to direct his musicians. He needed their help to bring about his own unique ideas. 
For those that think I am putting James brown down in some way, let me say that ultimately, HE was the driving force, and the innovator, and just possibly the most important figure in Black music history. Timhuskisson 20:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ===========================================================

message: I added the quote from Wesley's book, the claim that Brown didn't read music, and the Duke Ellington comparison. To take each of these in turn:
# What Wesley wrote has been attested to by other Brown sidemen as well. This article about Clyde Stubblefield says as much, as well as quoting Stubblefield's observation that "you couldn't really write [James's] music out" anyway. Brown and his wife discuss this in an interview with Terry Gross in an NPR interview here.
# When I wrote that he couldn't read music, I thought I had a citation from the Star Time liner notes by Brown's manager to add to the article later. However, I have re-read them and cannot find a quote to that effect. Several newspaper obituaries have mentioned that he didn't read music (see here, here, and here if they haven't all been withdrawn), but maybe these are not reliable. The Soul on Top album doesn't really prove anything either way; by many accounts Frank Sinatra didn't read music either.
# I agree the Duke Ellington comparison was imprecise.
I'm not going to filibuster any of this stuff. However, I would like to move it down further in the article and repair the current spastic formatting of the quote. Finally, to the person who started this section, thank you for your critique, but please sign your Discussion/Talk page posts (even retroactively if need be) with four tildes, like this: ~~~~.
InnocuousPseudonym 02:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: In response

message: not once in the article is he called the godfather of soul. please fix.
That's because Sam Cooke is the rightful 'godfather of soul'. I think that James Brown advanced R&B signifcantly, and certainly funk, but Cooke took the reigns at a certain point and did more to create the true soul sound. Blob4000 05:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly arguments can be made as to whether Sam Cooke, or more likely Ray Charles for that matter, is the true Godfather of Soul; as arguments can be made as to whether or not Little Richard, Chuck Berry, or more likely Fats Domino whose recording career started around the same time as did Ray Charles (1949 by most accounts), is the true King of Rock and Roll.  The point here is that James Brown was regularly referred to as the Godfather of Soul in both print and in the broadcast media, just as Elvis is generally known as the King of Rock and Roll.  The article should reflect this nickname; it can mention the debate as well, but to be factually accurate and informative, should include Brown's regular appellations as "The Hardest Working Man in Show Business" and "Soul Brother Number One." PJtP 18:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  godfather of soul? 

message: Anybody think that the article here should be semi-protected, there will no doubt be an influx of traffic the next few days with news of his death. Many vandals, no doubt, will be a good part of the extra traffic. TheOneCalledA1 15:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm comfortable with the sprotect. If IPs want to make corrections/additions, they can simply note them here. But while I'm not necessarily for preemptively semi-protection in all cases, it's probably a good idea to protect ITN articles. -- Kicking222 17:41, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: After a surprising amount of thought on the manner, I've decided to reverse my position on this and all semi-protects. My current- and official- opinion is that pages should not be semi-protected. For every IP making a joke edit or attempting to vandalize, there are many more IPs and new users who truly want to improve Wikipedia. I don't see why we shouldn't give all IPs and recently-created users a chance to edit pages dealing with current events. If a page starts to get vandalized a lot, then it should be sprotected. However, it's quite possible that this article (or any ohter article) would not have been vadalized enough to warrant semi-protection. We should always allow the community at large an opportunity to edit everything; only when this editing becomes a problem should pages be closed off from editing (whether it be semi- or full protection). -- Kicking222 18:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-emptive protection? 

message: Yesterday 'round 8:00am???  Stephan KŒNIG 19:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to a CNN report online, he was pronounced dead at 1:45 a.m. on December 25, 2006. Brown had been suffering from cold, cough. (2006, December 26). CNN Entertainment News. lwalt 19:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  James Brown's death ? 

message: If the grossly innacurate report of his death was in 1992, then how could that influence the song "James Brown Is Dead" released in 1991? 
219.89.3.171 21:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia - James Brown Is Dead 

message: From the lead:
:Brown was a presence in American political affairs, noted especially for his activism on behalf of African Americans and the poor (as well as his outspoken support for Richard Nixon).
Can anyone verify that Brown was a supporter of Nixon? There's no mention of this anywhere else in the article. (Ibaranoff24 08:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Richard Nixon]] 

message: Could someone please re-write the section on his death. For one thing, it's very poorly written and hard to follow. Secondly, it list his cause of death as "age" and then, ironically said, "he was only 73." For what I know the cause of his death was pneumonia, or perhaps another health condition. Also, the section on his death talks about "revolutionizing" music and such, and that information really does not belong in that section. I really think that the section could be written in a much better way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.244.30.45 (talk) 01:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: section on his death 

message: The movie "Good Morning Viëtnam" with Robin Williams made "I got you (I feel good)" popular to a new young generation, including me. I think it's the first "Feel good Vietnam-movie" and James Brown's song contributed to that quite literally! :)
Also I think the Popculture reference in the article to the movie "Mrs. Doubtfire", also with Robin Williams, is a crosslink to his earlier performance in "Good morning Vietnam".
Pop culture 
* In the 1993 movie Mrs. Doubtfire, Daniel Hillard, played by Robin Williams, is joking around in a movie studio with some toy dinosaurs, not realizing that he is being watched by the studio executive, who is impressed with his humor and ingenuity. One of the jokes he makes is with a brontosaurus, saying "Let's welcome Mr. James Browntasaurus," and continuing on to sing a parody of I Got You (I Feel Good), called "I Eat Wood." Because of this scene, Hillard is offered a position and the studio executive sets up a meeting with him to discuss it.
This is dedicated to the loving memory of funky Mr. Brown!
LOVE + BEST WISH
~Robin Timmers~2006~12~28~The Netherlands~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.101.11.248 (talk) 02:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good morning Vietnam a feel good movie? You must have seen something else. Happily ever after 19:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Good morning Viëtnam" with Robin Williams made "I got you (I feel good)" popular to a new young generation. 

message: Somebody has added a "Recommended YouTube videos" section. This looks out of place and is probably linking to videos that are a copyright infringement. I think this should be removed but I the page is locked. Athletes Foot 16:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Luna Santin 22:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: YouTube videos

message: hi, I have a shrine to James Brown on my user page User:Ka5hmir/James Brown Shrine where users and non users can pay there respects. Where on this page should i put a link to the shrine? if anyone can help can they link it or tell me in a comment on my usr page, User Talk:Ka5hmir. Cheers Ka5hmir 06:23, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an enyclopedia, not a fanzine. Please take your project elsewhere. Happily ever after 19:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  James Brown Shrine 

message: Don't know if you want to include these in the article, but I've uploaded some memorial photographs from today to commons.  You can find them at commons:James Brown.  Bastiq▼e demandez 22:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent photographs 

message: This article does not indicate that James Brown was a staunch conservative. He was a lifelong Republican and actually campaigned for Richard Nixon during his Presidential runs. As a matter of fact, James Brown was a bit extreme at times. A few years back, for example, a Georgia radio station near Brown's home was an affiliate of the i.e.America network, on which Mike Malloy had a talk show. Malloy's strongly liberal ideas so heavily offended Brown that he paid the station to replace the Malloy show with a few radio preachers and gospel music.24.6.22.213 06:09, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  James' Brown Conservative/Republican Views 

message: The assertion about James Brown anticipating Disco are outrageous... his music (even during the late 1970's) was never truly disco but only borrowed from the style of the music. Many artists can be cited as influences in the creation of disco music, but James Brown is hardly one of them.24.6.22.213 06:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disco Assertion 

message: I am disappointed that when brown died wikipedia did not make this article a featured article. It has been all over the news. They have Fords death but not james brown. why???? Muntuwandi 06:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured article

message: In the section on his personal life, someone wrote:
''
Brown was married four times. He and his last wife, Tommie Raye Hynie (also cited as Tomi Rae Hynie), a white woman, were married in 2001, but whether either marriage was legal is disputed.''
Why is her race important?  There is no mention that his previous wife was white.
--Bamanative 00:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see how her race is of any importance so I removed it. It had only been added 2 days ago. --Onorem 14:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wife's race 

message: Can anyone contribute any information on Brown's burial (e.g. place, time, etc.)? Tsk070 04:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I can a chance (that is, if no one else does this), I'll probably add something. I found copies online of the memorial programs for services at Carpentersville Baptist Church (private family service) and the public service at the James Brown area (see section for JB's children for links to both documents). Flickr.com also has images of the covers for both programs that could be included in the memorial section. Just need to find an image of JB in the 24K carat gold casket that can be posted for the article. lwalt 15:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Burial 

message: Can anybody add some specifics about the (cable?) TV special MC Hammer assembled once, which featured Brown's old band (including, at least, Maceo Parker), and even James himself singing a song or two? MC Hammer did have Brown hang around quite a while in a few media appearances... Demf 20:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  MC Hammer special 

message: Should the article mention anywhere that he is now an honorary graduate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidleeroth (talk • contribs) 02:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The source for the honorary doctorate is here- Remembering James Brown: Augusta memorial memorable. WKBF-TV (Augusta, GA). Retrieved January 10, 2007. In honor of James Brown's contributions to Paine College, a historically black college in Augusta, GA, during the school's time of need, Dr. Shirley A.R. Lewis, president of the college, bestowed an honorary doctorate on Brown towards the end of the memorial service at the James Brown Arena. JB was to have received the honorary doctorate at the May 2007 commencement for Paine College. lwalt 15:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Doctor

message: So far as I'm aware the article doesn't say when and where his last performance was, but it mentions "one of his last", so I'd imagine there would be cause. Every source I've found on this states that his last performance (and in some cases public appearance, though the toy giveaway was surely public?) was at the UK Music Hall of Fame in Alexandra Palace in London on November 14th, where he performed I Got You (I Feel Good). Here are a few, but if someone wants to add this they can use their own, perhaps more secure ones. It just seems odd to me as he had given over 100 performances in 2006, and yet that was about six weeks before his death.
- Some guy who was in the pit at Alexandra —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.43.41.210 (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Last performance

message: Made grammar, punctuation and sentence structure changes, but still need fill-in of information about the "homecoming" (funeral), in addition to other info mentioned on this  talk page. lwalt 15:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing Info Still Needed

message: I've come across conflicting references for the number of surviving children. According to some sources, JB had six, while others mentioned seven. But, I also came across the name "Venisha" as one of Brown's daughters. Who was her mother? What about Daryl's (guitarist son who played in JB's band) mother? I found that Deidre "Deedee" Jenkins is the mother of Yamma and Deanna, but it appears that both sisters share the same mother with Daryl. Is this correct? Here's what I've found for JB's children: Velma Warren (Terry, Teddy (deceased) and Larry Brown), Deidre Jenkins (Yamma, Deanna, Daryl?) and Tomi Rae Hynie (James Brown II). 
Also, as for more "mothers," who are the children referred to here for Yvonne Fair and the "unknown" female employee of the James Brown Fan Club?
::"He also conducted affairs with his female singing protégés, including Bea Ford and Yvonne Fair, who bore him a son and a daughter. 
::'When I'm on the road,' he once commented, 'I behave just like a teenager - Bang! Bang! Bang!' Brown fathered another son with a female
:: employee of the James Brown Fan Club."
Is Yvonne Fair the mother of Daryl and Venisha? Anyone out there with a copy of the memorial service program who can confirm who's mentioned as survivors of his family? 
Source: James Brown: "Godfather of Soul" who in the culturally explosive Sixties became an icon for black America. (2006, December 26). The Independent (UK). Retrieved January 9, 2007. lwalt 23:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FOLLOWUP - Partially answered my own question by finding copies of the programs for both the private family memorial service - Adobe PDF file and the memorial service at the James Brown Area - MS PowerPoint file (did not find a program, if it exists, for the Apollo service). Both programs listed the names of the surviving children, along with the grandchildren and great-grandchildren. But, still, did not find info about the mothers of Daryl and Venisha or the others who allegedly had children by JB. lwalt 14:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: James Brown's Children: How Many?

message: Please add this: Tower of Power recorded a tribute to James Brown, entitled Diggin' On James Brown. It was released on their album Souled Out. Tower of Power toured with Brown in the 1990's.
Please clarify this: In Aries Spears's "James Brown Jr" bit on "MadTV", the character is portrayed as the son of James Brown, although Brown himself was officially named James Joseph Brown Jr. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.156.135.250 (talk • contribs) 01:15, 14 January 2007
: As for the Aries Spears' spoofs, I was only able find references to skits for Aries Spears MadTV episodes during Season 3 at the IMDb site. However, I was not able to references to these same skits that included the James Brown Jr. character for Season 3 at the MadTV site, unless the character reference in incorporated under the names of the skits in which the character appeared in the episodes. lwalt 16:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cultural References

message: As I'm trying to cleanup the article for another review, I see some editors are continuing to add unreferenced or unsourced material. I concern is that, adding unsourced quotes such as "James Brown appeared small in stature, but was actually well over six feet tall. He preferred camera angles that made him appear short. He was quoted 'I want people to see short, but hear tall!'" invites removal. To 169.232.88.112, if JB said it, then you need to cite the statement from an independent source, not from a blog, forum or some other bulletin board or personal website. Otherwise, I plan to remove the unsourced JB quotation in light of the missing source. Justing pointing out what might present a problem latter when the article is up for another editorial review.
I have the same concern with the statement added by 69.203.93.7, SColbertFan and 169.232.88.112 that James Brown was X height and Y pounds at his death, according to the autopsy. If you want to include this information in the Death section, then cite the source where this height and weight info from the autopsy can be found and relate this information to how JB's height and weight contributed to his death. For example, while weight might be a factor in the death of a person from anorexia or bulimia, these same factors would not be the case here since JB appeared to not have suffered neither condition and nothing reported supports these factors as contributing to his death. Otherwise, I plan to remove the information since the information seems irrelevant to the cause of JB's death. lwalt 16:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced material

message: I found this pic of him on flickr and uploaded it to Commons in case you want to use it anywhere. It's fair use so perhaps you could insert it in place of many of the copyrighted photos in there now. Quadzilla99 01:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Commons Photo

message: From what I can see, the article still needs info about JB civic activities (toy drives; thanksgiving turkey giveaway) in his hometown Augusta and his political activism during the Civil rights era, politics and so on. This article is already considered "long," so does anyone have suggestions about handling inclusion of this information, or should this article (and these recommended section) be broken down into subarticles? lwalt 17:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing info for civics and political activism

message: Kinda surprised this isn't in that section, but I think it needs to be written that Micheal Jackson attended his funeral. I mean, Micheal did get some of his dance from James, and considered him his role model. All I know is that Micheal saw him in his coffin, kissed him, then went out to take a breath, then broke down in tears. I don't know much about this, but this should be in the article, with of course citations.  "THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 07:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right...the article is still incomplete without information this and other information ((see my message above), especially info about JB's politics, philanthropy and, of course, "the homecoming" -- the famous funerals as you've mentioned. About 2-3 weeks ago, I uploaded an image for use in the section about the memorial services (the Apollo marque; may have to replace that image with the one that I found that is freer to use). The image was uploaded with the intention use it for the section that discusses the memorial services. As I've mentioned, this part remains to be written and added to the article. And of course, you're welcomed to at least start this section, with other editors helping to fill-in or clarify, if you want. lwalt 04:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relating to James Brown's death 

message: Requesting a second peer review of the James Brown article after a major rewrite and revision of existing content. At the last peer review, the article was rated at B-Class quality, and the article was upgraded on February 4, 2007 to A-class quality, perhaps because of the factors that I've noted below.
This revision of the James Brown article included new material and extensive references to sources. However, the article still needs the following work, particularly since this article is the "featured article" for the February 2007. The article is obviously missing the following information:
::Update on what remains to be completed for the James Brown article to help it reach Featured Article status as of April 20, 2007 (maybe shoot for another FA review for featured article to appear during May 2007?):
* James Brown's civic activities that he was well known for in his hometown Augusta, GA (in particular, Christmas toy drives (he participated in his last one 3 days before he died) and Thanksgiving turkey giveaway) Came across a photo of JB in Santa Claus gear, but need to determine copyright status of photo. lwalt 04:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians|Musician article]] needs attention

message: As of January 29th, 2007, a full month after he passed away, James Brown's body still remains unburied.   I don't know if he's been buried yet or not, but I do think this should be included in the article.  --Dr Archeville 20:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I concur. As of today, March 9, 2007, he is still yet to be buried. Jackryan 16:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Still not buried?