Talk:Olivier Messiaen

message: An anon contributor has changed the translation of L'âme en bourgeon from "the burgeoning soul" to "the flowering soul", but isn't en bourgeon more embryonic than "flowering"?  Isn't the idea that the soul hasn't flowered yet rather the point?  I propose putting it back to "the burgeoning soul" or, possibly, "the budding soul".  What do others think?  Any bilingual Wikipedians paying attention?!  --RobertG ♬ talk 14:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ideally, I'd go with "burgeoning", "budding" or even "emerging". "Flowering" doesn't have the same sense of nascence, i.e. "flowering" is a further stage of development. However, "The Flowering Soul" is the more common translation of this book. Pinkville 15:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "L'âme en bourgeon" translation 

message: Shouldn't it be [mɛsjɛ̃] instead of [mɛsjɔ̃]? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Apus (talk • contribs) August 7 2006. -- rather not; [mɛsjɔ̃] seens to be the correct French pronociation; this is how I normally hear it in Paris.
: I do believe this is an important question; but can someone please explain the difference for those of use who are inexpert in IPA, and who are not native French speakers?  --RobertG ♬ talk 10:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to IPA_chart_for_English, disregarding the nasalisation, and in general American English terms, the first vowel is the one in 'bed', and the second is the one in 'caught'.  I can't say how he's pronounced in French, but I've always heard the second version from English speakers. HenryFlower 10:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm... I've always heard the first version (i.e. [mɛsjɛ̃]), from both English and French speakers... I think there's a little tendency in US English (but probably not in UK or Canadian English) to change French [ɛ̃] to [ɔ̃]. I think the page should probably have [mɛsjɛ̃] --128.148.123.85 19:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

text: The last anonymous contributor here has it right, I believe. I have heard only [mɛsjɑ̃] from French-speaking musicians. I have not heard a speaker of Canadian French utter the word. Of course there is a very common leaning towards [mɛsjɛ̃] among English speakers, because we know that [ɛ̃] is frequently a pronunciation of "en", as in "bien" and many other words. (I used to say it that way myself, I confess.) Certainly [mɛsjɔ̃] is wrong: [ɔ̃] is not an accepted pronunciation of "en". I am therefore now putting [mɛsjɑ̃] in the article. In the end, one wonders how much any of this can help readers, since most of them (and most of "us", too) are not adept at IPA. – Noetica 23:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If someone could make a pronunciation file, it'd help quite a bit, I'm sure.  A-giau 19:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: I disagree that the list of students is irrelevant to the article, and have tagged each article with  and , respectively.  Other articles about significant musicians or others in the music industry have link or lists of those whose careers they've influenced.  Care to discuss your reasoning with me?  Thanks! - CobaltBlueTony 18:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't argue that the list of pupils is entirely irrelevant.  If I thought that I'd have boldly deleted them from Wikipedia altogether!  I merely think that a long list of pupils is inappropriate for the lead paragraph, and that the direction it was potentially going in was the addition to the article of anyone who studied with Messiaen, however briefly or notably.  I feel that his students Boulez (who was perhaps his most prominent champion, and who both commissioned works and arranged first performances), Loriod (obviously) and Benjamin (who has been closely associated with Messiaen's music, and who even helped complete one of his works) are definitely worth mentioning in the lead.  However I even have my doubts about whether Stockhausen and Xenakis belong in the lead.  I think Stockhausen and Xenakis should certainly be mentioned in the body of the article because they serve as examples of how Messiaen encouraged his students to find their own voices rather than imposing his own ideas.  But what does the bare fact of his teaching of William Bolcom, Tristan Murail, Theodorakis (or Alexander Goehr or Karel Goeyvaerts for that matter) add to what we know about Messiaen?  If it adds something, then we should be able to say what it is in each case.  Otherwise we will end up with an indiscriminate list (edit summary: "if you can add Betsy Jolas then I can add Pia Sebastiani and Raffi Ourgandjian") - until we reach entirely non-notable Messiaen pupils.  I think the place for such a list is in a separate list article (which is why I started one), not in an encyclopedia article about their teacher.    --RobertG ♬ talk 12:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the lead paragraph, I'd only mention two or three of the notable students, but a list near the end of the article, perhaps just before references (maybe even a subset of a "See Also" section) of ONLY notable students is, I think, entirely appropriate. - CobaltBlueTony 15:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Am I looking for difficulties where I needn't?  I don't think it's a big issue.  It's just that Messiaen had mentor relationships of varying "intensity" with so many notable musicians, not all of them formal "students", that I foresee difficulties keeping the list trimmed!  I really think an indiscriminate list would be too much.  If the list is not to be indiscriminate then someone has to decide which musicians are notable enough to be included here, and how much tuition qualifies, and this must be WP:OR.  This doesn't matter so much if the list is kept separately from the article, which is featured.  Does anyone else have a view?  --RobertG ♬ talk 16:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I support a merge, especially because the list is not very long (and I doubt it will ever be extremely long) and can therefore easily be integrated into the main article; of the eight names on it, five are already mentioned in the first paragraph of this article. The best solution, in my opinion, would be to create a new section in the Messiaen article about his work as a teacher and explain what influence his harmony and composition classes had. That is a more useful way to present information than a list. Skarioffszky 11:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The article on spectralism mentions Messiaen as a pre-spectralist because of the resonant chords using the harmonic series as a basis for harmony, and I suggest mentioning his teaching Tristan Murail in this context.213.118.63.119 23:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "…I doubt [the list] will ever be extremely long" (Skarioffszky) and "…most are already there" (Turangalila): I have recently, after very little research, extended the list to 61 names.  --Ferstel 11:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of students 

message: The merge of the students into the Olivier Messiaen article seems like a good idea.  Badagnani 08:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's not such a good idea (see discussion immediately above).  I'd like to be convinced: why do you think it's a good idea?  --RobertG ♬ talk 10:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: Hi, I just wanted to say this is a fantastic article! I’ve learned a great deal from it. Many thanks to all of you. S.dedalus 06:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Great article!

message: What is the etymology/origin of his surname? Badagnani (talk) 02:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surname 

message: Discographies on Wikipedia cannot be complete, and if they are not complete then they are necessarily selective: and the selection criteria usually depend on original research.  Selected by whom?  Even if it's just organ recordings, who says Thiry's are more notable than, say, Bates's or Weir's or Messiaen's own?  I respectfully submit that Wikipedia composer articles are not the place for discographies, selected or otherwise.  --RobertG ♬ talk 08:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Selected discography" 

message: I have received representation asking that the link at Bell Percussion Ltd listing "The percussion repertoire of Olivier Messiaen" be reinstated, as it is "not a commercial link" but a "wholly separate part" of the website (notwithstanding the links and adverts).  Its being part of a commercial website was only one of several criteria I considered when removing it.  I was not the first to remove it, and I still feel that it does not meet the WP:EL criteria, but others may differ.  Only six Messiaen works are listed.  In any case, I feel it definitely should not be the top external link!  Does anyone else have a view?  --RobertG ♬ talk 16:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Percussionists' repertoire" link 

message: As a former London conservatoire percussion student and teacher I have to say that I cannot see why the “Percussionist’s repertoire” link should not be included. I find this area of the Bell Percussion Ltd website an invaluable resource and to be able to obtain freely available but sometimes awkward to find information in a single website section, extremely helpful. Not only is this section accurate (unlike some other percussion requirement lists!) but it delves deeper into the requirements such as the octave range requirements of some of the mallet instruments and where necessary gong and tubular bell pitches as well. Clearly this has been well researched and collated by percussionists who themselves have played the pieces listed. In this Messiaen ‘year’ I personally and indeed countless others will require this resource when organising the plethora of Messiaen percussion sections that will be fixed. The preceding length of time that each orchestra will receive the publishers score and parts varies based on the organisation. However to have the percussion requirement information potentially months before the first rehearsal is incredibly useful and more and more vital as the complexity of the modern percussion repertoire increases.
I understand your point that the website has a commercial element but the education and reference sections take equal billing. As a dabbler in web site design this organisation will be unlikely to have control over the bars that run down the right hand side of the site due the site construction restrictions. Personally I’m not interested in the commercial bars on the right. If I want to buy something then I’ll click the shop button – a completely different area. This is a relatively small and unique industry and those who do enter the ‘Perc World’ section or the ‘Repertoire’ section of this site do so for a reason – education and knowledge. The information and the whole aim of the inclusion in my view, does meet the spirit and criteria of WP. Interestingly I have not found this specialist information (of which there are twelve peices, not six as stated) anywhere on any of the links that are included in this Messiaen entry.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boniver (talk • contribs) 19:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: Messiaen Repertiore link 

message: Congratulations to those who got this article to FA status for the centenary.  I think Messiaen's reputation for being difficult to listen to is undeserved, and hopefully this article will attract new listeners to try his music.  Guy (Help!) 12:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ditto! Cmadler (talk) 15:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's a little low on inline citations. There are paragraphs and sections, which don't have inline citations. Although I do believe that it's okay when talking about the dynamics within a piece of music etc, as the piece itself is the reference. Jolly Ω Janner 15:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Well done 

message: Messiaen's German benefactor while he was imprisoned has extensive pages in German and Spanish.  It's a pity not to link to them, but I'm not sure that I've done it properly given that it's Wikipedia on a different URL.  59.167.161.132 (talk) 10:04, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Carl-Albert_Brüll

message: Robert, for the sake of it only, and to satisfy a fairly random criteria imo, can you add cites to the end of the following:
* the Time section. [done]
* In 1962 his travels took him to Japan, where Gagaku music and Noh theatre inspired the orchestral "Japanese sketches", Sept haïkaï, which contain stylised imitations of traditional Japanese instruments. [done]
* However, very few of these major works lack new technical ideas—simple examples being the introduction of communicable language in Meditations, the invention of a new percussion instrument (the geophone) for Des canyons aux etoiles..., and the freedom from any synchronisation with the main pulse of individual parts in certain birdsong episodes of St. François d'Assise. [done]
* Messiaen also used the concept of "chromatic durations", for example in his Soixante-quatre durées from Livre d'orgue, ( listen (help·info)) which assigns a distinct duration to 64 pitches ranging from long to short and low to high, respectively. [done]
* Thats it. Ceoil (talk) 14:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I will.  I am currently a bit busy in Real Life™, but I promise I'll get to it when I can, this week if possible.  Thank you, Ceoil.  --RobertG ♬ talk 16:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

text: Had some time; more will follow in due course.  I changed the "low-to-high" bit (don't remember writing that, maybe someone else added it?) to include a direct quote of Messiaen's description.  --RobertG ♬ talk 19:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Robert, one of the unfortuniate things about this is that nobody expects FAR, it just happens to jump you, inconviently usually. It is a rough and often insulting process, but my openion is that the gold star brings readers and that is worth fighting for - we are all writing about our passions. I am very pleased you are up for citing the bits and pieces asked; this is a page I want to hold up to others and say - 'look at what we can do'.  Ceoil (talk) 23:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Note on cites

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thread_title: File:Messiaen-livre-7-soixante.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: Yeah, there's that debate and variation (depending on who's speaking) about pronouncing the final syllable to rhyme with either dans or vin. But there's another queston entirely: I have heard most speakers (and granted I don't recall that any of them were French), almost universally drag out the last part of his name into two distinct syllables, so that rather than rhyming with bien or vian[de] (minus the de), it rhymes with et dans or et vins, if you catch my drift. I don't know why this is, or if it's correct, but I just heard the announcer for the Concertgebouw, who pronounced all of the other French names and words in his commentary perfectly, do this same thing, making the last part of the name rhyme with et dans rather than with (as implied in our current IPA spelling) vian[de]. In other words, not a (nonsyllabic) Y sound at all, in fact, almost an (English) A sound. As if the spelling were "Messaien" or "Messaian" or "Messayen" or something (I can't actually think of a spelling that would best replicate it).
Anyone care to comment on this issue? Is the last name supposed to be two syllables or three? Softlavender (talk) 07:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Two syllables, according to the source cited in the French Wikipedia article: . It thus rhymes with patient. I wouldn't be surprised if even some native French speakers mispronounced it; the spelling is indeed unusual. Olivier's father was born in French Flanders, and in Flemish it would be pronounced [mɛsian], but that was long before the time of the composer. Lesgles (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks very much, that makes it very clear; rhyming with the last syllable of the French patient. Softlavender (talk) 00:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation question again 

message: I notice that this article was promoted to FA-status in 2006 and had a FAR in 2010. Problems regarding verifiability were raised there and dealt with, but I believe that some of them still remain. These are the paragraphs that do not appear to have (enough) references:
*"Youth and studies"
Paragraphs 3 and 4
*"La Trinité, La jeune France, and Messiaen's war"
Paragraphs 1, 3 and 4
*"Tristan and serialism"
Paragraphs 2, 3 and 4
*"Birdsong and the 1960s"
Paragraph 4
*"Transfiguration, Canyons, St. Francis, and the Beyond"
All paragraphs
*"Music"
Paragraphs 1, 2 and 4. The lone reference in the 3rd paragraph does not look very convincing, judging by how it relates to the text.
*"Western artistic influences"
All paragraphs.
*"Symmetry"
This section is unsourced and rather "stubbyish".
*"Pitch"
*"Time and rhythm"
Paragraphs 1 and 2
*"Harmony"
Paragraphs 2 and 3
*"Birdsong"
*"Works"
I'm not sure what the approach to providing references for sections like this is, but I think "The technique of my musical language" should be "The Technique of my Musical Language". Toccata quarta (talk) 18:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: If you mean that English titles should be capitalized according to the conventions for English titles then, yes, obviously. I wonder why the English edition of this book is nowhere mentioned in the article, though. This translation is given as if it is merely a convenience for the reader who has no French (exactly the same as for the Traité de rythme, de couleur, et d'ornithologie).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: The problem with hidden comments along the lines of "Don't add an infobox because a WikiProject doesn't like them" is that it has a chilling effect on editors who don't understand that Wikiprojects have no standing to demand that an infobox may not be added. The decision on having an infobox or not is a matter for consensus on each article, and that is policy. If there has already been a discussion on a particular article, and a consensus reached not to have an infobox, then it is helpful to have an html comment drawing the editor's attention to that (possibly archived) discussion, and I'd be very much in favour of maintaining such notes. That is, however, not the situation here, as I can find no previous discussion of an infobox on this article. It is not acceptable to have a note which effectively prevents any consensus from being discussed, as if the matter were already settled by fiat of a single editor or Wikiproject. We build this encyclopedia by allowing people to edit, not forbidding it for no good reason. --RexxS (talk) 19:34, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: First we were told that failure to have a hidden comment made it hard for editors to know not to add an infobox.  Now you say that the hidden comment has a "chilling effect."  The fact is that you just want to have a pile of code at the top of every article containing redundant infobox information, even in these arts biographies, usually riddled with errors and always emphasizing unimportant factoids at the expense key information. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:53, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Er... I appreciate that you both are having this conversation in multiple venues, but the note on this particular article actually doesn't say "don't add an infobox because a WikiProject doesn't like them"; it says "before adding please read discussion and post to talk". Now, you might not agree with even that, but it is to my mind an important difference, and explicitly encourages discussion of the matter. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:17, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any reason why this discussion is taking place in a gazillion places?  I don't really have the time to copy and paste all of my numerous responses to the many more, numerous articles. CassiantoTalk 08:09, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hidden comments 

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