Talk:Virtue

message: What does the following sentence mean:
"This enumeration is traced to Greek philosophy, being listed by both Plato and Socrates." Socrates has not written a single word; does it mean that the character Socrates in Plato's dialogue is referring to it. In any case, the sentence needs clarification. If not, I'll delete Socrates.
Classicists consider themselves to have several sources on Socrates. Besides Plato, there was a fellow named Xenophon who knew Socrates and wrote a great deal about him; Aristotle understood Socrates and Plato to have different positions on several philosophical topics, and gives separate discussions of their views in many of his books; and people who lived long after Plato gave accounts of different philosophers (Epicurus, Parmenides, Zeno, Thales, Socrates, and so on) which seem to have been lost in the intervening millenia. 128.135.208.207 (talk) 07:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plato and Socrates? 

message: These should probably be made into two separate articles, the first being about what the virtues are (or at least what different philosophers have said they are), and the second being about how we know what the virtues are.  These are importantly different debates, and should probably be kept separate. KSchutte 22:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Virtue]] and [[Virtue theory]] 

message: From the article:
:[The unrelated Latin word vis means simply "power" or "violence"; ancient grammarians were unable to distinguish the two words.] 
This sounds like Latin's rhotacism of /s/ to me, i.e. they are the same word, but /s/ changes to /r/ in certain positions in classical Latin.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?  –Andyluciano 04:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin vis/vir 

message: The section on Buddhist virtues is pretty bare bones. I've edited it a little bit and will come back to it later when I have more time.  The main edits are:
1. Deleted list of precepts (sila). These are more analogous to commandments in the Western tradition.
2. Added list of Brahmavihāra, which are a pretty close parallel to virtues as such.
I'm not sure that the Eightfold Path belongs here, since it seems to me to be more of a spiritual discipline than a list of virtues.
Mrrhum 16:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Buddhist Virtues 

message: How about a bunch of information on what makes people act good and so on.
Relate to happiness and lifw quality genetics and so on. This aint good enough for wikipedia!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.8.148.20 (talk) 18:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Too short

message: should there be something about franklin's 13 virtues? Soyseñorsnibbles 03:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Franklin

message: Might it be good to either expand and explain the Nietzsche quotes, or delete them altogether? I've read a bit of Nietzsche, so I'm no stranger to his thoughts, but I have a hard time understanding what he's saying in these bare-bone quotations, except that he's against 'virtue' in some way or another. Perhaps if someone wrote about his overall position on them, and then used the quotes as support?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.204.18 (talk) 01:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of Nietzsche? 

message: It seems a bit odd to me that Aristotle is only mentioned in passing in this article. His Nicomachean Ethics is rather the definitive work on the topic.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.80.178.246 (talk) 11:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aristotle? 

message: Is every quran verse regarding virtue really neccasary? All other schools of thought get a bare bones explanation and then we have to wade through all these poxy religous verses in the quaran. They would be more suitable being merged with an islam article instead of forcing them on the rest of us. Get them to *%@#.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.30.37 (talk) 14:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam take over? 

message: I am trying to include the virtue of killing and torturing infidels as portrayed in 167 verses in the quaran but it keeps getting deleted. They are real verses just like the others in the article. Its not like i am making them up. How about we show the public an unbiased view of this so called religion of peace?
VIOLENCE, KILLING AND TORTURING NON MUSLIMS
*Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."  
*Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things." 
*Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." 
*Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
*Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". 
*Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." 
*Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
*Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
*Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"  This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle.  Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption.  (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).
*Sura (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
*Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
*Sura (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end." 
*Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
*Sura (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember." 
*Sura (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.  Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
*Sura (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
*Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."
*Sura (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."  The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.
*Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." 
*Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" 
*Sura (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."  This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
*Sura (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."
*Sura (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
*Sura (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper." 
*Sura (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme." 
*Sura (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
*Sura (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?" 
*Sura (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)."   "Strive against" is Jihad, obviously not in the personal context.  It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.
*Sura (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"
*Sura (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you,"
*Sura (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." 
*Sura (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"
*Sura (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" 
*Sura (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity."  This verse was given in battle.  It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.
*Sura (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."  The root word of "Jihad" is used again here.  The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites," those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.30.37 (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Biased editing over Islamic Virtue 

message: It's just wayyy too long. Try making a separate Wikipedia article for this if you want. Condense it to a list.--70.74.82.114 (talk) 09:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: long

message: The section on Islam was way out of proportion to the whole; if someone wants to make an article about Islamic virtues specifically, this might be appropriate. I have removed the quotations, valuable as they are - this amounts to Original Research
In any case, throughout this article material Wikipedia:V#Reliable_sources should be sourced to a peer-reviewed study of the subjects - but especially anything controversial: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Hgilbert (talk) 04:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islamic virtues and general sourcing 

message: What has that "VirtueScience" link to do with the article, apart from the name? -- Rea, 21:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Looks like a spamlink, so I removed it.--Dr.enh (talk) 20:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shameless Ad? 

message: We can split this article into 3 separate articles; Virtue, Eastern Virtues & Western Virtues. The Virtue article discusses basic virtues & vices, Eastern virtues article discusses Eastern virtues, Western virtues article discusses Western virtues.
Major clean up and easier to understand afterwards.
Phalanx Pursos  —Preceding comment was added at 00:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virtue/Eastern Virtues/Western Virtues. 

message: A glaring & embarrassing omission thus far. Volunteers? Wingspeed (talk) 10:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree entirely.  Looking to see if it had been there before, I've discovered no, it hadn't, but that an editor who had revamped the page to include some OR had deleted all the 'See also', references, and the philosophical navigation template, so I've put those back (beware of people who think they are part-time alien abductees and in this case I'm not joking).  You are right, it needs it, but whoever does it really needs to provide inline citations, most of this article has nothing and could be OR. Doug Weller (talk) 11:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virtue in the Jewish tradition 

message: Under roman virtues this links to a snail - I haven't done a lot of research nor plan to but I think this is an incorrect link. --2pac 2007 (talk) 01:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Comitas

message: I'm new here.  I believe there is an error under Notes, #1. The link for the word "rememberance" does not appear to be correct.  It links to the page for "Mnemosyne," which is not directly applicable.  Also, I believe the correct spelling should be "remembrance."
(Scwik (talk) 03:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, but the main problem is that the list is almost certainly something someone made up, and is thus original research. As is probably a lot of the article. I've deleted the list - if someone can find a reliable source with a list, great. dougweller (talk) 10:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  link error 

message: A better description of the Roman understanding of Auctoritas would be "charismatic authority" (cf. Weber's definition) rather than "spiritual" authority.--Wittsun (talk) 19:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Auctoritas  

message: I don't have any comment on the argument about what the content of the Islam section should be, but as it stands now, the section is clearly not in the proper Wikipedia style. There are long digressions, overlong direct quotations, and it is cited improperly as well. Someone with expertise in the subject should clean this up. MysteriousS (talk) 06:51, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Islam section digresses and not in Wikipedia style  

message: The use of the word "value" as a moral concept dates to the early 20th century (see for instance http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=value), thus to talk of, for instance, Christian or Aristotelian virtues in respect to values is a complete anachronism.  The ancients never thought of morality in terms of (subjective) values as far as I am aware.  Value ethics is very modern, but the article seems to imply it as a universal.  The page "Virtue_ethics" mentions "value" not once.  Moon Oracle (talk) 14:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Article needs to be revised then. - M0rphzone (talk) 06:28, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have marked it as "original research" because that is what it looks like to me.  However I'm no expert in this field so don't feel qualified to update it myself. Moon Oracle (talk) 12:48, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is talk of "values" doing here? 

message: 'Post 9/11, the words of Rabbi Hillel are frequently quoted in public lectures and interviews around the world by the prominent writer on comparative religion Karen Armstrong.'  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.253.96.70 (talk) 07:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the relevance, so I have deleted the sentence. Mrrhum (talk) 04:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is the relevance of this? 

message: I think this issue should be protected from not registered user's edits, it does not sound trustworthy with so much spam. It is hard sometimes to distinguish between edits - which is real spam, half spam or just unsourced or doubtful as a stance. I think regular editors who are registered and with more experience should be given the opportunity to work on the issue without the mess in the editions that is going on by now. --Aleksd (talk) 09:00, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: This article can be improved by acknowledging that virtue refers to many forms of human excellence, not only moral excellence. Other forms of excellence certainly include intellectual excellence (see, for example, the intellectual virtues) and others. Thanks! --Lbeaumont (talk) 15:04, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Human excellence, not only moral excellence 

message: Why has the writer overlooked the word’s etymology? Not out of considerations of political correctness, may we hope? Indeed, the word’s evolution from its root meaning of warlike manliness into a synonym for female chastity has often been commented on as one of the lexicological wonders of the world.   Orthotox (talk) 23:50, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology? 

message: Where did List of virtues go? It was fine a few months ago. 
I really need to review the list of vices. 174.16.98.178 (talk) 23:32, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It was merged into the Outline of self#Virtues. Huon (talk) 23:38, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you Kindly! 174.16.98.178 (talk) 00:11, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  What happened to the List of virtues article? 

message: I would like to ask why Chinese Taoists virture is not here please. Also Budo can be tracked back to China through Confucian and Taoists connection's. Shenqijing (talk) 23:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chinese virtues as they are the root of Japanese budo,  Zen Buddhism and Confucian theory.c 

message: I have added Alchemy as also a historical connection. Will need more work Shenqijing (talk) 03:23, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alchemy addition to be one path of historical roots 

message: I would like to question the meaning of virture that is put forward as it's explanation. Virtue is neither good nor bad. It is a principle and therefore not subjective.  I think that we need to understand excess and deficiency first. Shenqijing (talk) 03:33, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virtue description 

message: I have included the Chinese De (/də/; Chinese: 德) for vertue and also included the Wiki link. Shenqijing (talk) 10:18, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of De (/də/; Chinese: 德), 

message: I have added : another example of this the notion is Merit in Asian traditions Shenqijing (talk) 03:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of Merit 

message: The definition of virtue needs to be expounded, I can see potential problems for attachment to strong values. Virtue like in health of body and mind needs to be flexable or there can be no homeostatic rebound of our immune system in our body or empathy in our mind. last but not least virtue is not worldly uposed to morality no one can hold them, or that leaves humanity open to other horrible acts against each other vast on right mind or view. Please reply 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Shenqijing (talk) 05:08, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Virtue attachment 

message: Hello, new to edditing, just added  "For the Chinese the rudimentary study of Yin and Yang was the encapsulation of this philosophical approach to critical thinking and rationality.". Just included this with a link to yin and yang. It just got reverted,  new to editing,  what went wrong and how can I improve this entry to the page. Sntmichael (talk) 08:03, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition to Objectivism 

message: Some other user has reverted it (ie. removed the edits manually). Their justification for that action was "removal of unhelpful, unsourced, self-published assessment of virtue".
It is difficult to truly say the list is unhelpful for 8 billion people on earth and what is helpful for some may not be helpful for others depending on our abilities. Unsourced may not be relevant for creativity and  new light in seeing things. Self-published  is not a problem for a contemporary writer who means to add contemporary relevance to old issues. The edit might have been hastily removed.  Most of the contributions in this article are from European and Asian sources. My edit was an African contribution and the most contemporary contribution as well as a broad and succinct contribution. I think it can be accommodated.  An African voice matters.--Theresa John (talk) 21:45, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of contemporary list of virtues with definitions by writer Theresa Adebola John.   

message: I'll say up-front that I have no issues with Nova Roma or any disagreement with any of the virtues listed in this article. I would like to think I conform to at least some of them. That said, I'm not a member of Nova Roma either, or affiliated with them.
I raise this only to explain my position, as I want to ask whether a page on Nova Roma is a sufficient source for these listed virtues as having been recognised in ancient Rome? There's only one citation marker in the Roman Virtues section and it goes to a page on Nova Roma's site that doesn't appear - as far as I can see - to link to any historical sources.
Again, I like the virtues. It's a good list. But where does it come from? - Marcia Nemoris (talk) 14:13, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman Virtues, Per Nova Roma 

message: This is a secular Global Grassroots Association founded in British Columbia, Canada (1991) by 3 individuals: Dr. Dan Popov, his wife Linda Kavelin-Popov and her brother John Kavelin. Linda's first *book The Family Virtues Guide was shared in 30 countries within 3 months and has now been taught in over 120 countries. Established as a Non-Profit Association (2012) receiving financial support through Global Giving, Facilitator Membership & donation. Ethos: to create caring community culture; Techne: by teaching 5 strategies that help to bring out the best in ourselves & each other. Discover what's good @ The Virtues Project website (Many FREE resources incl lists of virtues for home, classrooms & community.
*MORE BOOKS on Virtue - Published by Founder; Linda Kavelin-Popov: The Family Virtues Guide; The Virtue's Project Educator's Guide; Sacred Moments; A Pace of Grace; Graceful Endings; A Scent of Sage; Dreaming at the Crossroads of Change & ... is currently writing. 2607:FEA8:79DF:F900:388A:64F8:B4DB:70C7 (talk) 12:21, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Virtue's Project