Talk:Seven seals

message: The Revelation article seems to have more info than this article: Chronology of Revelation#The Lamb and the Seven Seals
This sentence: "This seal occurred during the rule of martyred Christians who were persecuted by Emperor Diocletian (284-303)." seems to be saying that the martyred Christians were ruling, instead of saying that the Emperor Diocletian was ruling. I didn't know how to fix it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.217.31 (talk) 05:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The article isn't very clear to someone who has no notion whatsoever of what the Seven Seals are. It serves more as an interpretation of what the seals may mean. Some explanation of what the seals actually are is required. --Dark Green (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Clarity 

message: I've provided a new layout, removed original research and honed in on more or less words that are actually used in text. I had to remove a lot of rubbish and hopefully this will bring more clarity. I've also linked "seals" to another article that hopefully can explain what a seal was used for in ancient times. I didnt explain it in this article but you can follow the link if you dont know what a seal is. Jasonasosa (talk) 21:34, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  New layout 

message: Someone (Jason?) has changed the wording to the opening paragraph and has now used "secure". Is that 'correct'? Is it the best way to word this? I realize that the purpose of the article is to explain/define the "7 seals" and a definition should never use the word or form of the word in its explanation, i.e. using 'sealed' to explain 'seals'. And yet, every Bible version of The Revelation 5:1 states "sealed with 7 seals". The first definition of seal: 1. an emblem or figure used as evidence of authenticity. - p 789 The Random House Dictionary - Concise Edition (Random House, 1983). That first definition is highly important re: the "7 seals" since their being correctly presented on the cover of the "book/scroll" that "only the Christ can recieve from God" (paraprased) is "evidence of authenticity". The definition of 'secure' doesn't include "evidence of authenticity". - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: LMAO... and you say you are a "historian and scientist"? You don't even know what a "seal" is and you are even providing definitions? Why don't you read about seals here > seal (emblem); a link you keep removing. Also... "secure" doesn't always mean a lock and key... just so you know. (if thats what your thinking). What a waste of my time and keystrokes. Jasonasosa (talk) 17:13, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Jason, what a rant! I simply asked about the use of "secure". You seem to be 'hell bent' on deleting anything other than your posts. I don't believe I ever deleted the link to seal. I was the one to first provide the correct literal and figurative definitions of it along with a reference. Do you consider yourself an expert on the "7 seals" and the "2nd Coming of the Christ"? I do. Did you just call me a goofbol? Insults are not allowed on discussion pages. You don't possess the proper respect of others or the "7 seals". - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:54, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm included in the ratio... but you can interpret it however you want to. Jasonasosa (talk) 20:10, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: How coy of you, we both know your intention. If you want to consider yourself a goofbol, that's your choice - I AM not. I will repeat the question presented to you, do you consider yourself an expert on the "7 seals" and the "2nd Coming of the Christ"? I do. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 00:47, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I as an imperfect flawed human, am unworthy of being an expert in anything.Jasonasosa (talk) 01:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Jason, you continue to mock the sacredness of the "7 seals" and your lack of being an expert on the Bible, The Revelation, and the "7 seals" while you insist on having lone control over the material contained in the article. You owning one Bible (KJV) and being surprised that every modern Bible refers to a "scroll" in Rev 5:1-10:10 is a perfect example of how you are unqualified to edit this article at all! Your agenda is well documented here. - Brad Watson 71.196.11.183 (talk) 22:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Brad, I thought we were done fighting. I don't want to fight anymore. I just want to be friends and move this page along. I am not mocking the seven seals... I do respect the book of Revelation. I just wanted to clean up this page and make it right per wiki standards. I appreciate all of the views on Revelation because the Word of God is not linear, it works on multiple levels. I believe that the preterist, historicist, futurist and idealist views are all correct working on multiple levels. So it is a joy for me to work on this page because wiki allows editors to show all views even if it's right or wrong. I invite you Brad to contribute to this article, at least the view that you appreciate, which if I'm not mistaken is the futurist view. But I ask please that you follow wiki protocols when contributing your work, such as providing proper references, using the [Cite / template ] tool in the edit menu bar. I may not be a scholar on Revelation, and I don't have to be on wiki. I am however, an expert on editing... and that's all I need to prepare a good article. Also, I have a personality and I like to express it in my commentaries because you can't be a stiff all the time, you have to loosen up. Thanks for you time, Jasonasosa (talk) 23:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  seven symbolic seals that secure(?) the "book" or "scroll" 

message: According to The Random House Dictionary - Concise Edition (Random House Publishing, 1993), 'judgment' is the most common spelling, although the British version of 'judgement' is also correct. Which should we use here? This is 'judgmental' and we can't help 'judging' which is best and why? But since this reference and my really BIG dictionary (Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary [Barnes & Noble, 2003) use 'judgment' and concise spellings are always better, I humbly propose that this article and all Wikipedia articles use the spelling of judgment. At least that's my judgment. (Note: Back in '03, I came across this 2,214+ page dictionary on sale in the bookstore. As I was taking it to the cashier, I noticed two lovely young women at the magazine rack. "Excuse me ladies, I was just wondering whether you were attracted to a guy with a BIG dictionary?" I immediately continued on to the cashier, but looked back to see them having a good laugh!) - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 17:05, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:ENGVAR. Dougweller (talk) 21:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Of course you want it consistent, I didn't realise that was the issue, but then I should have guessed from the section heading. I was born and raised in Miami by the way. Dougweller (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm from Tampa, nice to meet you. Jasonasosa (talk) 01:24, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

text: That was actually kinda funny Jasonasosa (talk) 01:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of 'judgment' vs 'judgement' - consistency of spelling

message: The Seven Seals is a phrase in the Book of Revelation - the Bible's last book - that refers to seven symbolic seals that secure the "book" or "scroll"Good News Translation (GNT), American Bible Society, 1992, note: Practically all recent Bible versions use "scroll", i.e. New International Version, Revised Standard Version, International Chlidren's Bible, New American Bible" that John of Patmos saw in his Revelation of Jesus Christ. The opening of the seals, on the Apocalyptic document occurs in Revelation Chapters 5-8any Bible. In John's vision, the only one worthy to open the book/scroll is referred to as both the "Lion of Judah" and the "Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes". 
Upon opening a seal from the book, a judgment is released or an apocalyptic event occurs. The opening of the first four seals release The Four Horsemen, each with their own specific mission. The opening of the fifth seal releases the cries of martyrs for the "word of God". The sixth seal prompts cataclysmic events. The seventh seal queues seven angelic trumpeters who in turn queue the seven bowl judgments. 
Note: No Americans use "queue" and I AM not even sure that Jason is using it correctly here? - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 15:50, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Wiki is not limited to American word usage. Anyway, I used the incorrect word as you stated. Sorry. Jasonasosa (talk) 20:21, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, "queue" is dead. lol Jasonasosa (talk) 18:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Wow, is Spiderman your first real legitimate secondary source reference? LMAO Jasonasosa (talk) 00:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exact wording of opening two paragraphs 

message: "The book/scroll...sealed with seven seals" ref. Rev 5:1. Every Bible uses the wording "sealed with seven seals". To not refer to this is quite negligent of the writer (Jason). And as stated before, the KJV uses the word "book", yet apparently every English version of the Bible since uses "scroll". - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 18:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: To address this issue, we need more editors involved in this discussion. It boils down to quoting from the authorized version (KVJ), or other versions (modern versions)... I will address it in a new section. Jasonasosa (talk) 18:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I had to think about the use of "sealed" for the "The book sealed with seven seals". I now support its usage to prevent any ambiguous thinking of the word seal. Thanks,Jasonasosa (talk) 19:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The book/scroll...sealed with seven seals" [7] 

message: Brad Watson, please read: Wikipedia:Article titles#Article title format so that you can contribute something that won't get deleted. I admire your enthusiasm to edit, but you have to follow Wiki rules. I would post this on your User account... if you had one. Please consider getting a User account on wiki. Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 18:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Jason, did you delete my reply? If so, that's clearly against the rules of Wikipedia Discussion Pages and you could get yourself banned from here. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 19:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't delete replys but you can get an administrator to dig around see if something got lost. Jasonasosa (talk) 01:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles 

message: The issue of Book vrs. Scroll has not yet reached an agreement. I encourage interested editors to poll your support for the word that should be used when refering to the document that had the seven seals. For example, the title:
The ______ sealed with seven seals
Current choices are:
# "Book" (KJV) 
# "Scroll" (modern versions, eg. NIV) 
# "Book/Scroll" (Duality)
Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I for one, primarily favor "Book", but will settle with "Scroll", and will avidly protest "Book/Scroll". Jasonasosa (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book vrs. Scroll (Round 2) 

message: Under the category of Influence and the subcategory of Television, I added... History Channel's 2009 Nostradomus Effect - Secrets of the 7 Seals. 
Doug & Jason, I pray this meets with your approval. Earlier I had added a very important quote from the program that got unfairly deleted, "Today, believers are seeking connection between science and the '7 seals'...they look to science for answers". Another important quote from the program re: the "book" or "scroll" and the Christ producing it, "This appears to be a title deed to the universe and God's prophetic plan". Indeed, and this should also be added to the article! - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 14:14, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That statement is not encyclopedic, it's not even informative. Jasonasosa (talk) 14:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The mention of the program under Television is fine. Jasonasosa (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Brad, I would LOVE to see the scientific interpretation of the Seven Seals if you could only provide a secondary sourced reference! Jasonasosa (talk) 00:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Brad, it would be wonderful, quite exquisite in fact, if you could actually present the scientific analysis of the Seven Seals. As a potential audience, you have "wet my appetite" for this scientific approach of the "Seals". So, post the actual scientific data that was used to enlighten us on the "Seals". Please, I as an audience, am really interersted in what you are talking about. Jasonasosa (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influence - Television,  History Channel's 2009 Nostradomus Effect - Secrets of the 7 Seals 

message: Jason has taken it upon himself to not let anything other than his posts stay on the article page as soon as he is notified that any change has taken place. The readers of this discussion page can judge my posts here. The following is the current version of the opening two paragraphs, but Jason won't let it remain there long. I've exposed the references...
The Seven Seals is a phrase in the Book of Revelation that refers to seven symbolic seals that secure the book (ref: Revelation 5:1-10:10, King James Version of the Bible [KJV], 1607) or scroll, (ref: Good News Translation (GNT), American Bible Society, 1992, note: Possibly all recent Bible versions use "scroll", i.e. New International Version, Revised Standard Version, International Chlidren's Bible, New American Bible") that John of Patmos saw in his Revelation of Jesus Christ. The opening of the seals, on the Apocalyptic document occurs in Revelation Chapters 5-8. In John's vision, the only one worthy to open the book is referred to as both the "Lion of Judah" and the "Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes". (ref: ) This symbolically refers to the Christ. (ref: What The Bible Is All About - Bible Handbook, by Dr. Henrietta C. Mears, Regal p. 663) 
Upon Christ opening a seal from the book, a judgment is released or an apocalyptic event occurs. The opening of the first four seals release The Four Horsemen, each with their own specific mission. (ref: ) The opening of the fifth seal releases the cries of martyrs for the "word of God". (ref:) The sixth seal prompts cataclysmic events. (ref:) The seventh seal cues seven angelic trumpeters who in turn cues the seven bowl judgments. (ref:)
- Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 23:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: When I went in to clean up your mess, I messed up a < ref > tag that made it look like the paragraph was deleted. I fixed it now. Also, you need to site good references and not pull them out of nowhere! I'm checking your references. Jasonasosa (talk) 00:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Brad, you need to read: Wikipedia:No original research before you do any edits, that is why I keep having to delete all of your posts.. none of it is supported, bad references, you put 666 with the Antichrist when the Antichrist is not even a word used in Revelation... so how do you make the association without a secondary source? Come on man, read up on how to edit on wiki... cause I'm sick of this. Jasonasosa (talk) 00:17, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening Paragraph 9.18.11 7:47 PM EDT (edit form) 

message: I am dominating this article from editors who do not comply with wiki's policy on Wikipedia:No original research. Nothing will last on this page if it isn't sourced. I will not have this page overrun with unsourced material, bad references, and only limited to the futurist view, like it was before. Please read this: Wikipedia:Editing policy before you do ANY edits on this page. Jasonasosa (talk) 00:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've given him a formal warning, we've discussed this often enough here with no obvious effect. Dougweller (talk) 05:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

text: You simply cannot delete stuff just because it may be wrong. From some viewpoints, all of this is just superstition, shall we delete it all because some people think that. Preterist views are discussed in clearly reliable sources such as Newport's book, and are part of the history of interpretation of the seals. Dougweller (talk) 12:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH 

message: The preterist view of the Seven Seals are typically seen as highly figurative illustrations of early historical events that have already taken place.James R. Johnson. All Power to the Lamb (, 9781612151144), 2010, xxii The preterist usually views that John was given an accurate vision, of a course of events that would occur over the next several centuries, to fulfill the prophetic seals.K. G. Newport, 2000, p. 16 Robert Witham, an 18th century Catholic commentator, offers a preterist view for the period that spans the length of the opening of the seals;K. G. Newport, 2000, p. 86 it being the period from Christ to the establishment of the Church under Constantine in 325. Witham. Annotations, vol. II, p. 472
Johann Jakob Wettstein (18th Century), places the date of the Apocalypse as written before A. D. 70. He assumed that the first part of the Book was in respect to Judea and the Jews; and that the second part, about the Roman Empire. The “Sealed Book” is the book of divorcement sent to the Jewish nation from God.F. C. Cook. The holy Bible, Authorized version, with comm. from Anglican Church, 1881, p. 583
Isaac Williams (19th Century), associated the first six Seals with the discourse on the Mount of Olives and stated that, “The seventh Seal contains the Seven Trumpets within it… the judgments and sufferings of the Church.”F. C. Cook, 1881, p. 584
---
Preterist view
Johann Jakob Wettstein (18th Century), identified the first Horseman as Artabanus, king of the Parthians who slaughtered the Jews in Babylon. However, Ernest Renan, a 19th century modern rationalist preterist interpreted the First Horseman to be symbolic of the Roman Empire, with Nero as the Antichrist. This rider who "went forth conquering" was Rome's march toward Jerusalem in the year 67, to suppress The Great Jewish Revolt.C. Marvin Pate. Reading Revelation: A Comparison of Four Interpretive Translations of the Apocalypse, (, 9780825433672), 2009, p. 19
- Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 11:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: You simply cannot delete stuff just because it may be wrong. From some viewpoints, all of this is just superstition, shall we delete it all because some people think that. Preterist views are discussed in clearly reliable sources such as Newport's book, and are part of the history of interpretation of the seals. Dougweller (talk) 12:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Preterist views

message: I ask this because it makes it easier to find a book and it also gives us a clue as to whether it can be used. Thus All Power to the Lamb is, I found, self-published by Xulon Press which published books for a fee. Not only is this self-published, I don't see it discussed in clearly reliable sources, so we shouldn't be using it. Dougweller (talk) 12:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That was my bad... I will comb through it. Thanks for the update. Jasonasosa (talk) 12:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Jasonasosa (talk) 12:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Do you use the citation template right above this edit window? Hit the dropdown button, choose Book, the choose show extra fields as for books you need to give the page number. Make sure you have author, publisher, ISBN, publication date, full title and of course page number. Dougweller (talk)13:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I'll work on that when I get a chance and update all of the references. I'm at work now, so it won't be until later. Thanks, Jasonasosa (talk) 13:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Great. Dougweller (talk) 14:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.Jasonasosa (talk) 04:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

text: That's more or less right: "if the author has paid a fee to a publishing company for its publication", that is a very strong signal that it is not a reliable source; Xulon in particular has an incredibly bad reputation. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:05, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Missed Brad's reply, but he's now blocked for disruptive editing. Dougweller (talk) 20:45, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please give full detail for books 

message: It has never been ´the word of god´, allways, ´the worth of god´.
Changed in the first paragraph, added /worth.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.204.18.169 (talk) 17:01, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you able to provide evidence to support your pov?   Rev107 (talk) 09:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistake in lettering due accumulation of linquistical changes. 

message: No citations.  No other articles about this view and the appearance of being the ever changing cultish views of non-notable people or groups.  Without any sources to notability of persons that hold these views, I deleted all those views.  --DHeyward (talk) 06:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Watchmen View? 

message: I tweaked the beginning of this article and provided a new reference... The Seven Seals is a phrase in the Book of Revelation that refers to seven symbolic seals that secure the book or scroll, that John of Patmos saw in his Revelation of Jesus Christ. The opening of the seals of the Apocalyptic document occurs in Revelation Chapters 5-8 and marks the return of the Christ. In John's vision, the only one worthy to open the book is referred to as both the "Lion of Judah" and the "Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes".
Important scrolls being secured with seals is mentioned in earlier Bible examples including Book of Daniel 12:4... 
 (The prophecy was to be sealed up - not understood - to the end of the age.<ref<Unger, Merrill F, The New Unger's Bible Handbook revised by Gary N. Larson (Moody Press, 1998), p. 301</ref<) 
Upon the understood Second Coming of the Christ opening a seal from the book or scroll, a judgment is released or an apocalyptic event occurs. The opening of the first four of the Seven Seals release The Four Horsemen, each with their own specific mission. 2601:589:4705:C7C0:48C0:908A:50EE:D86 (talk) 14:18, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That is one view (preterist) and, as such, should not be in the introduction to the article.  Taxee (talk) 21:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Taxee: That is one view and as such, SHOULD be in the introduction to the article. Most importantly, it's correct. 2601:589:4705:C7C0:2D1A:6829:65DE:A333 (talk) 13:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Opening of the "7 Seals" marks the return of the Christ 

message: The link provided for Graham (2010) The Seven Seals of Revelation and the Seven Classical Planets. Esoteric Quarterly 6 (2), 45-58 doesn't work. 2601:589:4705:C7C0:48C0:908A:50EE:D86 (talk) 18:49, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: OP is User:Brad Watson, Miami. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bad link for 'The Seven Seals of Revelation and the Seven Classical Planets'  

message: I deleted several external links that did not meet the test in WP:EL that external links should be to sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding.  The links in question were all to non-secondary source material that was highly speculative in nature and therefore not appropriate to be linked to.  Taxee (talk) 15:35, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: If the address has "7seals" in it, it's User:Brad Watson, Miami. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:57, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

text: He doesn't need authority to point out that you have no authority and do not belong here. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

text: That's not the issue, Brad.  The issue is that you do not belong here, you are not welcome here, we reject you and your ideas, we reject your website -- you are anathema here.  Damn us all you want you, "Jesus", we will not worship you, much less accept your ideas. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: See Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Brad Watson, Miami. I've struck through a lot, deleted some. Talk page now semi-protected.  Doug Weller talk 15:02, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Noting that this talk page has been plagued for years by a sock