Talk:Brian Chase (hoaxer)

message: this page is weakly written, it could stay as trivia but structure should be improved
... age 38 as of 2005 ... why not type born in 1967 instead it's not like he's going to be 12 or 81 next year ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.113.99.10 (talk • contribs) 09:21, December 11, 2005
If his birthday is after today but before New Year's, he would have been born in 1966. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.59.209 (talk • contribs) 10:04, December 11, 2005
:Since the birthday is unconfirmed it was removed, Once it is confirmed feel free to re-add it to the article in question! :) Thanks  17:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, his age of 38 is reported in the New York Times article. I don't think that the conclusion that he was therefore born in 1966 or 1967 qualifies as original research. AxelBoldt 18:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Birthday

message: Why is this page scheduled for deletion?  This is a small piece of Wikipedia history and outlines real consequences of the user-edit system and has resulted in tweaks to the editing rules.  This page whould stand.
--Thomasdelbert 16:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You can vote to keep it here --RayaruB 16:41, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It does not matter if the pages are linked - we can make it into a redirect to the controversy article. So people coming thru those links will go to that page. And I feel everything related to Mr.Chase is realted to the controversy as well because that is the reason he has become so famous :-). Jam2k 07:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion

message: This article was previously listed under :Category:Wikipedians.  That category is a self-referential category; it is meant to help us organize our user pages, and does not contain encyclopedic content.  I have moved it to :Category:Wikipedia, which is a category for Wikipedia articles about Wikipedia in the main namespace.  Thanks.  -- Creidieki 16:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categorization of this article 

message: People who've said this wikipedia history are right when they say this is a historical event in the life of this website and of this siegenthaler incident, As such this needs to be a part of the "Siegenthaler wikipedia controversy" article. Briaboru 20:44, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You can add your opinion to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brian Chase (Wikipedia hoaxer). Canderson7 (talk) 20:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia history 

message: Was the claim that Seigenthaler had lived in the Soviet Union posted from the same IP? In the same edit? AxelBoldt 20:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Canderson7 (talk) 20:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet Union? 

message: It seems to me like the IP listed is incorrect, because when I go to user contribs on Wikipedia for that IP I see nothing.  --Cyde Weys talkcontribs 21:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong IP listed? 

message: Primarily my listing this article as an article for deletion was because this page specifically falls under What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information 
 7. News reports. Wikipedia should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories (however, our sister project 
 Wikinews does exactly that). Wikipedia does have many encyclopedia articles on topics of historical significance that 
 are currently in the news, and can be significantly more up-to-date than most reference sources since we can incorporate 
 new developments and facts as they are made known. See current events for examples. 
News articles should posted on Wikinews not on the Wikipedia. Current events qualify as news even if they involve the Wikipedia. This controversy was majorly overblown as the publisher in question could have simply edited the article removing the vandalism and the matter would have been instantly resolved. Instead he used it as a tool to generate publicity for himself and to attempt to discredit the Wikipedia.. 
Then you have the following from the Deletion policy:
:* Such a minor branch of a subject that it doesn't deserve an article
:* Is not suitable for Wikipedia (see WP:NOT) 
While this achieved a minor notoriety the discovery of this person is best included as a section on the overall controversy page. Not as it's own page.
So it is a valid listing on AfD and I hope this may change a few people's opinions on the subject. Thank you  09:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This article does not relate first hand accounts, it lists references and the story is no longer breaking to boot. - RoyBoy 800 21:40, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Agreed, this article no longer qualifies for deletion.  What is now up for debate is whether this article should be merged or remain seperate.  Hall Monitor 21:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: While I don't side completely with Seighetler, your (i.e. SusanLarson) post above suggests you have completely failed to follow the controversy. There are well publisised reasons why he did not edit the article himself. If you aren't aware of them, a little reading of wikipedia would help you to better understand the situation. Also your opinion that the issue was overblown is irrelevant. Whether or not the issue was overblown does not significantly effect it's notability. Personally, although Seighetler was not a good spokesperson, he raised a very relevant issue which many of use Wikipedians have been aware of for a long time and it's disapponting to me that so many wikipedians have apparently failed to understand the issue or why it matters Nil Einne 04:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  My response to the issues raised above 

message: Is this not proof enough that the new restrictive policy adopted by Wikipedia, which forces contributors to register with wikipedia before they can create a new article, is wrong. Once you are registered there is no way that someone like Daniel Brandt can find out who wrote the article. Making a user name just creates a level of anonymity that does not exist for a non-registered user whose IP address is visible to everyone. I for example would not like to sign this because it is easer for someone to click on my IP address and leave a message on my IP page and that message is visible to everyone who is on the same IP address. But I'll sign it anyway. --08:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof that the new policy is wrong. 

message: I will go over a list of reasons why I believe that this page should not exist.  As follows:
# Brian Chase is a manager at some kind of delivery service.  Distinctly non-notable and doesn't come close to meeting WP:BIO
# Whilst we could argue that he is notable for being the person who edited Seigenthaler's page and hence has had media attention, there is a great problem with meeting WP:NPOV with this article, since we are solely documenting negative aspects of him.  Is it possible to write this article as anything other than an attack page?  We should not be writing any article anywhere solely as an attack page.
# Brian Chase is not a libeller.  What he wrote was not libellous, according to my legal opinion, and according to the legal opinion of experts in defamation law, who have commented about this case.  At worst, his offence is in stating that Seigenthaler was born in the Soviet Union, but suggesting that that is somehow harmful is rather ridiculous.  As for him stating that Seigenthaler shot JFK - this is not true.  He didn't write that.  What he wrote was that Seigenthaler was once briefly thought to have done it.  This is TRUE.  Someone, somewhere, with certainty would have thought briefly that he had done it.  Considering the amount of conspiracy theories about JFK's murder, and his association with JFK, someone would have done it.  Besides which, Seigenthaler did not sue him.  In order for us to accurately call him a libeller, he must have been found guilty in a court of law of libel.
# Brian Chase is not a hoaxer.  What he wrote stayed up for 4 months.  A hoax is something that you write and then laugh about and remove immediately.  What he wrote is vandalism.  It is not BJAODN level vandalism and hence not a hoax.
# There are some question marks about whether he really did it.  Whilst he did confess, there is the chance that we got the wrong IP address, and he just chose to take the fall to end the drama.
# It is an invasion of privacy to list such an article about someone like this.
# What is written here could be cause for a libel suit filed by Brian Chase against Wikipedia.  With the media following this story, this is a very real risk, and it is ridiculously risky for Wikipedia to allow this article under these circumstances.
# What he did is nowhere near the worst act of vandalism on Wikipedia.  The GNAA regularly runs scripts to produce minor little edits everywhere on Wikipedia.  There are people like Willy on Wheels and the communist vandal that have done masses of vandalism to Wikipedia.  Yet do they have their own pages?  Oh yes, on the admin block logs where they belong.  Not in the public area like this.
I am extremely concerned about this article remaining.  In my opinion, we should not even be stating his name when referring to him.  It is legally extremely dangerous for Wikipedia to write something like this.  And with a case like this, it wouldn't just be one person being sued for libel, it'd be Wikipedia in total.  Its just too risky. Zordrac  (talk) Wishy Washy  Darwikinian Eventualist 09:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: On the whole you raised some good points; however Wikipedia is as libel as an ISP; which essentially means they are not libel. I voted strong keep and that will remain the case until these issues crystalize and/or a good reason to remove the article is provided, and of course Willy on Wheels didn't get Wikipedia on CNN. A significant difference in my book. - RoyBoy 800 23:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with this page 

message: Wow, the Afd is out of control.  I say we ignore the Afd and merge this into John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy where it belongs.  Oh, it's already there.  I've redirected. Friday (talk) 14:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: BTW if someone disagrees strongly enough to revert, don't worry, I won't fight over it.  It just seems clear to me that the Afd is unlikely to produce a useful result.  Friday (talk) 14:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: What has been done by not giving this person his own article is to hide it into some article about a controversy. Brian chase caused the controversy. Either they both have articles or the controversy should be described under Brian Chase's article. By sweeping this person under the rug Wikipedia and people like you are trying to hide things. I'm sure today in fact there are many incorrect and wrong statements and facts in this encylopedia and by hiding the name of the person who added wrong info Wikipedia is covering things up. Dwain 15:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: What hiding?  His part in this mess is well documented in the article I redirected to.   If someone is newsworthy as part of a larger event but not so much on their own, it's entirely proper for them to be mentioned as part of the event, rather than having their own article.  Once people start making biographies of him and we have a wealth of sources about him, then maybe he ought to have his own article.  Friday (talk) 15:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me, but there are plenty of sources on him already all thes news articles about him all OVER THE WORLD! So let me get this straight Wikipedia has to be the last to post articles on people your are saying? We can't have articles unless the Encyclopedia Britannica has one? And it is hiding the person when the whole article has to be searched for who actually started the whole thing. Let the vote dictate what happens otherwise if some know-it-all can just ignore the vote and just do what he likes then why vote at all? Wait until the vote decides what should be done.Dwain 15:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Couple things:  1) it's not a vote. 2) Yes, Wikipedia is meant to rely on reliable sources.  We don't have to be last, but we cannot be first.  Friday (talk) 15:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: What is the rush? When the Afd is closed we will all have some perspective on this. --JWSchmidt 15:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, I do. If there is no concensus to delete the article or to merge it then the article should be kept. I have seen a concensus reached about articles being merged or not so to merge an article when there is no consensus to do so is extreme arrogance. Dwain 15:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I didn't mean to be arrogant at all.  I was hoping to save some unfortunate soul the effort of wading through the Afd mess and skip right to the result that will eventually come anyway.  But, JWSchmidt is probably right, there's no need to rush.  It sure seems to me like a talk page is more likely to produce fruitful discussion (resulting, if we're lucky, in a "consensus") than a sock-infested Afd.  I consider Afd a very poor indicator of consensus in cases like this, that's why I tried to skip over it and just go to straight to the result.  Friday (talk) 15:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: The AfD not coming to a clear result means the article stays. - RoyBoy 800 23:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afd 

message: I don't know how the AFD is going to turn out, but in the meantime, it might be worthwhile to choose a better title for this article. "Hoaxer" doesn't seem very NPOV. Anyway, I wish to avoid any disputes by moving it myself, and am not really sure what a better title would be, so figured I'd toss this concern here. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 00:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Any... alternate suggestions? :)  Subramanian talk 15:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page move?