Talk:First Employment Contract

message: "...a proposed French law set to take effect in April 2006 that gives employers the right to fire without justification workers under the age of 26 in the first two years of their employment." Isn't this an over-simplification of the implications of that contract, and one without NPOV at that ? I think there's more to it than only a new "fire at will" clause. This article needs more meat Xibe 17:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Find a source and fix it. I wrote that based on what I read in the newspaper articles I had access to. – flamurai (t) 05:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

text: No, really, there is not over-simplification :) The only difference with an indefinite contract is the lack of justification from the employer - but there was also a reform of the law about indefinite contracts (for instance, very large or total tax-cuts for an employer who hires a long-term unemployed worker)... As the CPE is legally a form of indefinite contract, it has the same advantages, but the only difference with a "real" indefinite contract is the lenght of the "période d'essai" (in a "common" indefinite contract, this period was usually from 1 month to about 3 months), during which the employer can fire without justification. J-b 13:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, AFAIK, it's not much "without justification" than "whithout written justification", which is a bit different already. No one can fire at will (pun intended), because that would break the ILO conventions. An employer still has to have a reason (good or bad, but a reason anyway) to fire an employee, and must let the employee know about it. That's a different perspective from what is said in the article. Hence, POV. I'm still learning about the whole thing, so please prove me wrong. Xibe 12:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's more precise. The employer hasn't to give reason, unless the worker goes to courts. And there other diffences bewteen CPE and other contracts: after being fired, indemnities are different and the worker has the right to receive some "teaching". 82.229.147.109 15:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Over-Simplification ?

message: I moved it to "First Employment Contract", because our policy says "Use English". Also, it is the most common name in English media, see Google News: 540 vs. 55 bogdan 19:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved to "First Employment Contract" 

message: "The protest coincided with a mass strike in Britain to oppose proposed pension changes." Does anyone know if the protests were deliberately timed to coincide with the pensions strikes in Britain (or vice versa), because if they weren't, then this is largely irrelevant, and should be removed. --Scott Wilson 22:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coincidence with British strikes? 

message: I don't know if this article has been partly tranlated from the French Wikipedia, or whether one or more French editors are just not quite familiar enough with the language, but some of the article contains mistakes or reads in a very French sort of syntax. I've fixed everything obvious I can see but some things still aren't quite natural, and there are some legal terms I'm not sure about. It's hard to tell how I can reword some parts without broader knowledge of the subject, so if anyone could go through it that would help. BigBlueFish 18:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (re pic caption) The verb précariser is specific in French. Jobs without indefinite contracts, where workers can be sacked "at will", are described as precarious - even if the company is booming. Jameswilson 23:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: just to repeat what I said above: "précariser" is not only specific to French... but it is also specific to the opponents of the CPE (the socialist and communist opposition, and particularly the unions, about basically everything the right wing governement does)! It should be translated and used with care as it is a totally POV word!Sarreau 14:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  English 

message: Here I have for your consideration a few points and facts that are not mentionned in the article. Most of it are disputed or even taboo ideas, usually rejected by the opponents of the CPE, meaning they would be deleted or disputed:
- This CPE law, just like the "CNE", the other contract created by the same government a few months before, is part of a more general project of the right wing government to break the current rigid employment system, and make it more flexible for companies, hoping eventually to help growth come back inside France, and help companies being more competitive. In other words, the idea is to break the protective measures of the past that are now considered too costly for the economy. Something other European countries have been trying to do as well. Painful reforms, that many (see articles I quoted in the article) feel are necessary.
- it should be explained that unions in France, who pushed for demonstrations and strikes, do not represent a majority of employees, but only a minority in few branches (for reasons I don't know). I think (sorry, I don't have the figures available) they represent less than 15% of workers in France, a rate that is particularly low.
- it should be explained also that the two most active unions calling for strikes and demonstrations are the CGT and FO, both connected to communist ideas and parties. Both are usually accused of following communist ideology rather than finding and negotiating workable solutions. The more moderate CFDT was much less involved in demonstrations and strikes. In other words, the main organizations behind demonstrations and strike are of communist background!
- it should be explained (this time siding the opponents views) that "flexible" contracts like CDD, interim, but also "helped contracts" contracts already exist and are widely used by employers. Meaning the CPE contract won't bring more flexibility than those, and would arguably not make much difference as opposed to those.
- it should be reminded more clearly that the CPE is for people below 26. In other words, the demonstrators reject the CPE because of alleged long term consequences on their lives, but given the 2 years "fire at will" clause stops at 26+2=28, the CPE has in itself actually no impact on employement conditions after you turn 28!
- About 65% of the below 24 are NOT on the job market, meaning probably a near majority of the below 26 (that the CPE targets) won't have to worry about it (check here, sorry, the French statistics board is in French! Problem with those is that it stops at age 24).
- It should be explained that the below 26 on the job market ALREADY suffer from unstable contract condition (apprentice, "interim", "CDD", interships and others that sometimes won't be takein into account in statistics). I personally found particularly striking that I could not find any figure or even mention about this in newspapers!!!
- From a broader view, demonstrations and unions action goes beyond the CPE itself as it would arguably have had limited consequences, but is intended to stop government reforms, after the unions own failure in stopping the "CNE": a contract with similar issues for small companies who do not have unions!
- Most important of all my points, the CPE, which has been rejected, exists here in wikipedia. Surprisingly, "CNE" does not, though it brought a much bigger change in employment law as it implemented the same debated "two years fire at will" clause, without being limited to the below 26! Probably because "CNE" also did not appear much in the press! And I guess it has been little covered by the medias because it was voted during the summer holidays when people were having holidays.~
Well, that's it for now. I hope I brought in a few ideas... I won't bother to write anything without having some opinions first, as I think some might face strong dispute and deletion attacks, I want to see if I might have backup... Also, I am just hoping to bring some lights on things that are not always covered or explained to international readers. Mostly, I feel too much is already said! I'll be checking on CNE and try to write something proper. Please write here what you think!
Sarreau 16:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: why are you bothering about making supposedly NPOV edits that you very well know, as you've just written here, are not so NPOV? (The only way you say "communist and socialists are opposed to the law" is quite funny... why not go all the way and say "socialo-communiste" while you're at it? The CGT is not any more officially linked to the Communist party, and those parties have changed since 1917, haven't you noticed? But, why are you bothering about starting an edit-war if the law has been rejected? Who cares anymore? Is rewriting history that important? In any cases, please be careful with controversial edits. Lapaz 20:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll remind you, dear, that the Union for French Democracy (UDF) was also opposed to it. Another socialo-communist party? Lapaz 21:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks for making my point, thanks for your censorship, and goodbye wikipedia!Sarreau 09:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  taboo facts and ideas that should be in the article 

message: It clearly appears that the external links selected in the article are not respecting NPOV, they are all justifying the CPE... no other point of view here ? Jahsensie 21:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the external links 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:032806 francelaborprotests2.jpg

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified