Talk:Big Dipper

message: In Neil Gaiman's American Gods, a character, Zorya Polunochnaya says it is also named Odin's Wain. If someone has a 'better' reference, maybe we should add it to the article. bogdan 20:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Odin's Wain 

message: What, does Hokuto suck enough balls to be interesting for this article? Evertype 22:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I clarified that portion of Japanese--it means northern dipper, and is a name common to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.  --ian (talk) 16:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese Hokuto 

message: First, a "thank you" to Dermo69 for adding the info. I have modified the contribution and feel that I should explain why.
*I have moved it up in the article to be with the other national/ethnic entries.
*I changed "big dipper" to "figure" so as not to imply that "big dipper" is the real name.
*I changed the link from "Starry Plough" which leads to a disambiguation page, to "Starry Plough (flag)" which gets directly to the heart of the matter. I also boldfaced it.
*I dropped the links to "republicanism," "socialism," "John Connoly," and the "ICA" as inappropriate for this page. Note that they are all linked from the "Starry Plough (flag)" page.
Thanks again for the addition. B00P 05:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Starry Plough 

message: There was a recent flurry of changes made to the article. These included improvements, vandalism (and reverts), errors, and others working at cross purposes. As it was impossible to disentagle them, I have reverted to an earlier stage and then restored the valid additions. Voidvector's input was helpful in clarifying the matter. B00P 14:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  12 Nov 2006 Revert 

message: so we need for Big Dipper a Redirect on Mayor Ursa 85.8.124.246 13:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Big Dipper is a *part* of Ursa Major (not Major Ursa) Nik42 02:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the same correct word for the constellation is [[Major Ursa]] 

message: A widespread American Indian figuration had the bowl as a giraffe. Some groups considered the handle to be three cubs following their mother, while others pictured three hunters tracking the giraffe.
A giraffe?  Giraffes aren't native to North America, so how could they picture it as a giraffe? Nik42 06:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I just read that and thought the same thing. I am gonna remove that. WookMuff 08:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was about to remove it when I realised it was probably vandalism changing bear to giraffe. I went to the linked article and found that indeed the big dipper is seen as a bear in at least some native american cultures. WookMuff 08:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native Americans 

message: Once again, I have removed the line, "In modern Finnish, Otava is also known as the name of a Finnish publishing house (see: Otava)."
I point out to our contributor that this is English Wikipedia, and this information - with yet a second link - is of no value to the article. If you wish to have your firm better known, pay for an advertisement. B00P (talk) 23:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Otava

message: DreamGuy excised everything but the Biblical reference in the "Other" subsection, with the explanation that "fiction does not belong here."
I disagree and have reverted. The entire "Names and Lore" section is a record of various imaginative appellations given to this figure. As should be clear, there is no "real" or "official" name for the grouping. In this context, mention of the "Valacirca," for example, is just as valid as the other unusual terms. As long as the work of fiction is well-known and the entry is brief, there is no problem. B00P (talk) 19:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiction 

message: The Wagon concept comes from Mesopotamia. MUL.APIN gives Ursa Major as MAR.GID.DA.AN.NA "the wagon of the heaven, Damkianna", see Origins of the ancient constellations: I. The Mesopotamian traditions, by Rogers, J. H. The Wagon is there as early as 1100 B.C. in the "three stars each" catalogue. The text claims:
:An older Odin's Wain may lie behind these northern concepts.
But that can at best then be a middle station of the Wagon symbolism. ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 19:56, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wagon concept 

message: Under the "Other" subheading: "The Bible (Amos 5:8) refers to it as 'the seven stars.'"
The citation for this is merely the King James Version of the Bible followed by this text: "Although 'seven stars' is the literal translation, other versions have 'Big Dipper' explicitly, while some translations of that verse refer instead to the Pleiades, which also has seven stars visible to the naked eye, but which are called 'the netted stars' in Job 38:31."
The author of this entry states that "other versions have 'Big Dipper' explicitly" but does not deign to provide any reference to such a version. A search of 20 common translations by myself discovered no such version using "Big Dipper" and only King James and King-James-based versions using "the seven stars." Every other modern translation uses "Pleiades" and the accepted translation of the original Hebrew is also "Pleiades or seven stars."
This statement needs to be removed from the article. 97.127.99.3 (talk) 17:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Not in mine translation either. It says "sjustjärnorna" which is an uncommon name for the Pleiades in Swedish. It is also mentioned in the same context as Orion, which is pretty near to the Pleiades, but far from the big Dipper. I'll delete... ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 23:10, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Modified as per this discussion. B00P (talk) 05:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputable Biblical Reference 

message: I think, based on the weak indications either way or another, that the paragraph about the wain must be neutral according to what was the original term for "Big Dipper". 
* The support for "Odin's Wagon" seems weak — weak sources exists, but I could not find secure firsthand mentions in old sources such as Edda, Voluspa or similar, only sources from c:a 1900 — so it must be mentioned by may as it is now. 
* That "Odin's Wagon" laid behind "Karlavagnen" et al. is unattestable, so they must be mentioned without implying any relation. 
* "Karlavagnen" as a construct in contrast to "Kvinnovagnen" is attestable by sources (even though I, personally, suspect some fact "feedback circuits" where original suggestions are propagated as facts among scholars),
* The alleged relation between "Charlemagne" and "Karlavagnen" seems to be generally regarded as a folk's etymology, and is sourceable, even though I cannot find sources that identify the time of history when the notion first appeared.
* I believe that alleging that Charles' Wain is related to Karlavagnen is not too bold, since "Charles", while still used as a name is an old word for "man" in English too (In Nordic "Karl" is both a personal name and a word substitutable for "man"). Besides the comparison is sourceable. 
* Margidda "the Wagon" mentioned earlier in this talk page is a Sumerian rendering of a Mesopotamian wagon, that most scholars (sourceably) believe is Ursa Major, while another Margiddanna, the Heavenly Wagon, is generally (sourceably) believed to be Ursa Minor.
* More than just Germanic Wagons, such as the Romanian one, would be very nice...
I think. Have opinions! ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 12:22, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As you appear to be concerned about the item's length, I suggest that once you have figured out exactly what you wish to say, that you add it as a footnote to the text. B00P (talk) 06:04, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: How about some useful and intelligent discussion instead of stubbornly reverting each others' edits? Just an idea. Thanks. SpecB (talk) 19:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "British Islands" or "Ireland and Britain" 

message: The Ash constellation mentioned in the book of Job (Job 9:7-9; 38:32, 33) in the Tanakh has been associated with Ursa Major. - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_names_of_stars#Ash) --96.46.201.195 (talk) 07:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Ash Constellation''' 

message: uses an entirely separate system. 
A
Now that they're modernizing and Europe controls many of the international organizations, they have names for the European ones and sometimes even use them. You need sourcing that this one is in popular use now, if you're saying that. You need sourcing that this one has been used in the past, if you're saying that. It's possible they developed the idea of a "dipper" completely separately and it became bound up in Taoist belief. It just needs to be sourced. Easily verifiably. (For example, good job on sourcing and linking Japanese use of the Northern Dipper. That made it very easy to find the relevant page where a "Southern Dipper" is being discussed.)
You'll need individual sourcing for otherwise bizarre ideas like that a goddess gave birth to the stars of this asterism. It's possible these stars were birthed as part of another asterism but, y'know, explain that and source it.
B
It's quite nice and pretty to see the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, &c. names for the stars. a) They go in the #Stars section, not the #Name section. b) They probably shouldn't go there either. You're going to end up with a chart including every language's name for each of the stars. That belongs at Wiktionary or on the stars' individual pages. I've included the Japanese names commented out below. Feel free to add them to the relevant pages, if they're not already:
Note also that the Purple Forbidden Enclosure page has several separate Chinese sets of names for these stars, none of which seem to agree with the Japanese set. — LlywelynII 08:08, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: East Asian astronomy

message: The paragraphs from "Escaping slaves had to find their way north" to "by many musicians" is directly copied from source [6]. It should be changed and condensed. Would this leave out too much?
:It was also called "the drinking gourd" by slaves who used it to find the North Star in order to escape north (often Canada) where slavery was illegal. This is the source of the song Follow the Drinkin' Gourd.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.19.200.7 (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: direct copying

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: German version cant be added: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fer_B%C3%A4r yet dewiki // Großer Bär claims that Big Dipper cannot be linked, as ursa major is the enwiki version
2A02:810B:1040:1F77:17AF:4DC6:6CE1:761D (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you trying to do?  Add a Big Dipper article to German wiki?  There already is one, a dab page, and it mentions (not very accurately, I think) Big Dipper as being English for the Great Bear.  Lithopsian (talk) 20:21, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to link german version, while conflict w/ ursa major exists 

message: Nothing against the good people of Fujian and their astrophotographic expertise, but does the fact that it is "seen from Fujian" make any difference?  Wouldn't an image of just the asterism look the same from anywhere? --2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:6574:25DE:EAF4:6A32 (talk) 13:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  image "seen from Fujian"?