Talk:Murder of Shalhevet Pass

message: Palestine by Joshua Bloomfield and The Agony of the Promised Land by Joshua Levy are not reliable sources. One is published by AuthorHouse and one by iUniverse, both pay-to-publish services; having a book published through one of these publishers means that you have money, not expertise.
...Also, Bloomfield's Palestine appears to be a novel. What the hell? How can you even pretend to argue that this is a reliable source? Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:50, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The propositions that they stand for are well-referenced by other RSs.  There is no reason to call them unreliable as to the propositions that they stand for.  Given your practice of tag-bombing this article, which is being discussed elsewhere, I would suggest that perhaps it is a practice you may wish to consider avoiding.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The facts are not what is disputed here. If they're supported by reliable sources, you should have no problem removing the unreliable sources and replacing them with these reliable sources. On what planet do we accept a pay-to-publish novel as a reliable source for a historical event? Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The sources are clearly RS for the purpose for which they are used, as reflected in the other RSs.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:46, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussion started at RSN here. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: *As we discussed at the Yehuda Shoham deletion page and consensus affirmed, 'murder' in such instances is to be changed to 'death'.
**Death of Yehuda Shoham
**Death of Khalil al-Mughrabi
**Deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer
*'The event shocked the Israeli public, partly because an investigation ruled that the sniper had deliberately aimed for the baby.' (Boukaert) It happens to be obviously queer because the shock the Israeli public experienced occurred from day one. Investigations into the incident were some time later, and had no impact on the shock.
So, where does the source say this? Exact wording please.Nishidani (talk) 15:30, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well we have info below that it was shocking, but the wording can definitely be changed. Earlier versions had something along the lines of "The event shocked the Israeli public, mainly becasue the sniper had deliberately aimed for the baby," so we can rewrite it as "The event shocked the Israeli public, mainly becasue the sniper had deliberately aimed for the baby, as confirmed by an investigation."  I mean, it is possible to be more shocked when the facts are uncovered afterwards.  If a baby falls off a swing and dies, I don't expect the news to cover it. But if an investigation into it turns out that someone had actually rigged the swing to collapse and deliberately kill the baby, you may get some public reactions. --Jethro B 15:45, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: We write according to sources. The source does not have that in it. We don't adjust the page to conserve bits and pieces of what is unsourced. If there is no source, then the sentence goes out as WP:OR, which it is, like much else here. (b) please reply to the death/murder issue. You changed, following discussion, the titles to the two earlier articles, and this should comply.--Nishidani (talk) 16:04, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I did indeed change those titles, based on a few statements by editors there asking to change it.  But looking again on it, is there a place in the Wikipedia MOS or title guidelines that says to use specifically "death of" and never to use "murder of"?  This was, in fact, a murder. --Jethro B 17:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is about neutrality, but also editors being obliged to adhere to some coherence in the way they apply what policy or consensus suggests should be done. This is not policy, but you changed the articles which personally you labelled as 'murders' under the advice of people like User:Silver seren while one of them was being discussed for AfD, and applied it also to your Palmer draft.  This article is not being AdF'd but though wider scrutiny by wikipedians is not pressuring for this necessary change,  as Silver seren put it, there is no conviction in this case, which would normally qualify that kind of title. At the comparable Palestinian article on Khalil al-Mughrabi, this problem did not exist because editors exercised the proper regard for NPOV, as it does not exist for Iman Darweesh Al Hams, who, even if wounded by accident or error of judgement, was then summarily executed or murdered, as were most of the 250 other, Palestinian and 72 Israeli children that year. We just refrain from emotive language here. So please be consistent, and try to apply the same principle here, as per WP:NPOV.  Nishidani (talk) 18:13, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone can go the other way, say that saying "death" isn't neutral because it's minimizing the facts and making it seem like a natural slipping-away, while it's without a doubt that this was a murder.  Regardless, I was willing to change the title of an article that I myself created after input from other editors, but before going ahead and doing this here, on an article I haven't created but rather has been here for years with this title, I would like input from other editors.  If the consensus is to change it, great, then it'll be changed. --Jethro B 18:46, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

text: Article on similar circumstances should observe some rule. 'Death' minimizes nothing. A rifle bullet from a Palestinian sniper killed an Israeli child. A shot from an Israeli force killed Khalil al-Mughrabi, shots deliberately aimed at Iman Darweesh Al Hams killed her. This is an encyclopedia, and works by rules and demands internal consistency over articles dealing with the same order of events. What is the rule here? Unless one has rules to apply, it becomes a numbers game, and wholly subjective. Could you clarify why you think the corresponding articles differ from the Shalhevet Pass article, in terms of cogent and coherent policy. Otherwise this is chaotic.--Nishidani (talk) 19:41, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if there is a difference, and I don't know whether those articles were required by the rules to be changed. All I know was that on those articles, there seemed to be consensus for the change.  However, I don't know of any Wikipedia rule - if you know of it, please tell me - that mandates this change.  Yeah, there may have been some support over there to change the title there - but I don't know of an actual rule that would make this across the board.  You may recall I supported changing the title there.  And if there was such a rule, I'd do it for each article and probably without such a discussion.  But I'd rather get some editor input here, considering that this title has been in place for years on this article. --Jethro B 19:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

text: If you think there's some rule or requirement for an across-the-board change here, then go ahead and change the article title.  But I'll probably revert, and ask for a discussion to be held first.  Whatever the results of the discussion are, that's what we'd take.  But as it is now, I'm certainly not doing this unilateral move, so asking me further is really futile. --Jethro B 19:51, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: The page states:
:The Associated Press ran the story with the headline "Jewish toddler dies in West Bank" and was criticized for downplaying the murder
The fact that it was criticised is only supported by one reference that points a book, not even a specific page, which makes it unverifiable. It needs to be clarified who criticized it as as it stands, it sounds like it was widely criticised. Moreover if was just critised by one entity, it is not noteworthy. User:יניב הורון has reverted my removal of this line, but if it is to stay, this needs resolving. BeŻet (talk) 22:52, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Critique of AP headline 

message: The article seems to suggest that this was a terrorist attack, while it seems more accurate to describe it as a civilian attack - it was basically a murder of a child. I don't think describing it as a terrorist attack is accurate. So far I've updated the infobox, but I think categories could be removed as well. Would be good to find sources that state which entities describe this as a terrorist attack, and explain this further. BeŻet (talk) 23:10, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Terrorist" attack 

message: I would fix it but it's locked, "Murdered of an Israeli baby by a Palestinian sniper in Hebron" should be "Murder of an Israeli baby by a Palestinian sniper in Hebron". 67.42.85.90 (talk) 17:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed. Zerotalk 03:19, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  grammar error