Talk:Final Fantasy XII/Archive 3

message: I would like to request everyone to keep the article spoiler-free for at least a few months. I know that there is no Wikipedia rule such as "Don't post spoilers of a game before X days after release" but people might check Wikipedia for information about the game to decide whether or not to buy it, and they wouldn't want to stumble into a spoiler by accident.
So please be careful not to post any spoilers, warned or otherwise, thanks. --Waterchan 22:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: if there is a spoiler warning, i dont see any reason not to include spoilers... -Xornok 14:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Spoilers yet, please 

message: Is Vayne actually a prince (crown or not)? He denied it in public and said that Emperor is an elected position early on(mid-tutorial section of the game), but a soldier called him highness. 
(if he isn't, should that part of his description be changed or omitted, and if changed, what to? )
204.146.164.146 20:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crown Prince? 

message: I was wondering if we have an actual confirmation by the creators that XII is set after the events of Final Fantasy Tactics, and not before.  The reference goes to a Gamespot article, however, doesn't seem to have a hard interview transcript of the questions asked--much less an answer from Yasumi Matsuno, the creator of the world of Ivalice!
Why do I bring this up? It's been nagging me for a while because of a brief part in Final Fantasy Tactics which comes up when Mustadio joins the party.  From the game script hosted at Rpgamer:
AGRIAS: I hear a "lost civilization" is hidden under Goug... When St. Ajora was slive, airships were in the sky, and human robots in town. But time passed, technology was lost, and no one knows if it ever really existed.
MUSTADIO: But the civilization must have existed. Parts from many airships and machines are buried under Goug. Mechanics are the ones who restore the "past legacies".
Also note that the "Unexplored Lands" that you find in propositions include abandoned floating islands, and tell tales of an empire that was brought down by a mysterious plague.  (SPOILERS for roughly 12-13 hours into FFXII here) Vaan's parents were taken out by plague, and the Emperor notes that he is dying of a mysterious illness.
(end spoilers)
The descriptions of the "Unexplored Lands" rewards can be found here.
For these reasons, I'm inclined to believe that FFXII takes place not after, but BEFORE Final Fantasy Tactics.  It would however be quite easy to assume that XII takes place after Tactics because of the advanced technology--especially if you didn't delve into the details of Final Fantasy Tactics.  The "lost civilization" is never brought up as part of the main plot again. If you just went through the main plot once, you would probably dismiss or forget it (much less pick up on the mysterious plague).  That is why I would like to find, if possible, an interview with Matsuno to confirm or deny my suspicion. 
Cynders 20:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no official quote from a Dev that says before or after. And whoever that anon person who keeps changing the information needs to stop. I agree w/ your arguments. Noah 02:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Rather, I keep changing it because I certain source from within the game (the Magick Pot bestiary entry, page 2, the Light of Kiltia), confirms, to any knowledgeable enough in Ivalice history, which way around the games go. --80.235.138.11 12:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ivalice Time Setting - Confirmed by the Creators? 

message: If I remember, Square-Enix said that Ashe and Vaan do not fall in love with each other, but with other characters, and somebody said that 
*SPOILERS* Ashe falls in love with Balthier *SPOILERS*.
What a bizarre rumor.  I played through the game when it came out (I speak Japanese) and it'm most assuredly not true.  I think what Square-Enix meant was that romance isn't a part of the plot, but the characters are involved in romantic relationships that began  *prior* to the start of the game- all of which are detailed in the instruction manual (Vaan-Panelo, Balthier-Fran, Ashe-that prince guy).  Not a spoiler, but the box explicitly states that romance is not a part of the game (FF10's box listed that it was, as part of the "parental advisory" sticker).--220.29.92.4 11:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Falling in Love?

message: Why do we know so little? The game came out two days ago at the time of this printing. Surely someone must've got their hands on it. Plus, this information is mostly for the Japanese version of the game, not most other versions. 68.112.246.238 00:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why do we still know so little? 

message: You guys need to add Spoiler marks before the character section because after reading that, I felt as if some of the plot has been ruined for me like the Balthier being Cid's son part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.57.127 (talk • contribs) 
:Well, then maybe you shouldn't be reading this page, considering Wikipedia HAS SPOILERS. lol, pwned. Axem Titanium 22:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia wouldn't make spoiler warnings if they felt that same stubborn way you do, so someone should put some up. Chocobo Knight 19:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spoiler Marks

message: Could the Mist possibly be a reference to FFIX? Considering early in the game, it is revealed to have adverse effects on monsters (Thextera, for example), similarly to the mist in Final Fantasy IX. 171.66.188.90 15:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article already states that "In a nod to FFIX, Mist..."--WW79 16:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mist

message: the reference used to state that FFXII takes place after FFT is mistaken. FFXII is modeled after the roman empire while FFT is modeled in the middle ages, and follows a similar placement in time. In Final Fantasy Tactics, there are points that heavily imply the timeline of FFXII existed prior to the game.  Agrias Oaks is quoted saying that " I hear a 'lost civilization' is hidden under Goug.... When St. Ajora was alive, airships were in the sky, and human robots in town. But time passed, technology was lost, and no one knows if it ever really existed." I believe Alexander O. Smith translated part of it as "when airships plied the sky" in the english FFXII trailer. There are also floating lost continents in FFT, which are part of the map in FFXII.
:Original research, go get Square Enix to make an official statement about it before we can report it here. As of now, our references says after and that is how it will stay until reliably proven otherwise. Axem Titanium 04:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't believe the reference can be trusted. While the source is from an interview with the development team, where's the transcript of the interview? What I know is the developers intended FFXII to be in a different time period. i believe they meant for it to be long BEFORE final fantasy tactics. there is another proof in Final Fantasy Tactics, you can find it in the Ivalice article: Sweegy Woods is a location where now extinct Moogles have once lived here. I don't think extinct Moogles can just pop out back alive. 私はBluerfnです 18:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The gamespot article statement that says FF12 takes place after FFT is the authors opinion, nowhere does the article cite a specific person who said that. The statement by the editor should have no bearing on this topic. Noah 06:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Does anyone have the FFXII Ultimania? That's sure to give a definitive answer. Axem Titanium 20:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The Ultimania does mention the Kiltea religion founded approximately 2000 years before the main story (704 old valendian?) and the galtea federation's history, but no mention of FFT. 私はBluerfnです 21:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I fully agree w/ the first statement. FFT does mention the "Airship Graveyard" from the world of Ivalice. It makes logical sense that the technology was "lost" prior to FFT. However, to avoid the before/after issue (which has NOT been confirmed either way), I have edited the text instead to include a direct quote from a FF12 developer. See the cite for more information. Thanks. Noah 06:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, Noah, there were two sources of confirmation you removed. One was a gamespot interview with the developers, where it was said XII is in Tactics future (though I could understand it being questioned, lacking as it is in a transcript). The second source is taken directly from the game and confirms the timeline, as it describes St. Ajora as having been born over two millenia before XII, where he was born only 1200 years before Tactics. If one accepts that T and XII are set in the same world (which the developers have confirmed, and that you, too, seem to be happy with) then the timeline falls into place with that Bestiary entry. As such, I'm going to revert that to the sourced information- change it back only if you have a truly compelling reason, please? --80.235.138.11 09:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, that was the opinion of the Gamespot editor. It was not a direct quote. Can you show me a direct quote? If so I will let you edit it. Noah 02:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I honestly don't understand your position on this, Noah. You seem to accept that FFT takes place in the same world as XII. In which case, I would again direct you to that third source, which describes an historical event shared by the two games. Logically, given that both games give a date for the historical event in relation to their 'present', it should stand as evidence to their positions in the timeline? You surely can't accept that T and XII share the same world and yet challenge their relative positions when the timeline can be concluded from in game sources. The gamespot article gives no direct quote, for sure, but it does summarise information gathered from an interview; information that, while contestable, is supported by ingame evidence. --80.235.138.11 12:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And if that was the case Anon, then how do you explain the other consistancy issues? I.E. in FFXII, the entry talks about the Light of Kilita religion, while the St. Ajora in FFT was part of the Fara Church. FFT talks about the Graveyard of Airships, and about Airship technology long lost. In those missing years, did Ivalice suddenly reinvent that technology? You talk about the 12 centuries prior vs. the 20 centuries mentioned in FFXII -- you must have forgot that FFT takes place another 400 years AFTER the end of the story line (when Olan completes his work, the Durai Writings). So if that's the case, and the two St. Ajora's ARE in fact the same, that leaves only 400 years between FFT and FFXII, which does not make sense being as there is little or no mention of FFT in FFXII, while FFT has numerous references to FFXII. The more logical choice would be that FFXII took place many, many centuries before FFT, and the "Ajora Glabados" in FFT was simply named after the famous St. Ajora of centuries past. Noah 07:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Anon, I'd just like to point out Wikipedia's policy on original research. Specifically, that it is not allowed in any form. That basically means that you can't do your own research about something and then add it as fact to a Wikipedia article. In order to include it, it must be already published by a secondary source that could conceivably be checked by other editors for correctness. In this case, it would be a reputable website or a book (like the Ultimania). Axem Titanium 20:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you Axem. And with that being said, since the Devs have not specifically stated one way or another whether FFXII takes place before or after FFT, then the page should reflect just that, and not someones opinion. Thanks for the discussion. Oh, and PS. Since the official FFXII website states that Ivalice is in fact the "world", I will be changing that back as well. Noah 07:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The bestiary page doesn't actually name Ajora's religion. It just goes on to say he broke away from the Kiltia church and founded a religion based around Faram as the one true god. Also, there are eight hundred years between the games. The story is told four hundred years after the fact, but that doesn't change that it happened 1200 years after Ajora's death. 800 years is plenty of  time to reinvent technology (particularly since they have magic on their side). And, y'know, author's intent: you think it more likely they put Ajora in XII to suggest there were two of them? Okay...whatever. And again with the world thing, despite the game saying the opposite. The Ivalice bestiary entry begins "A region...". I don't understand how the Ajora thing is original research, since it's right there in the game. So it would only be allowed in the article if XII said "Final Fantasy Tactics happened over eight hundred years ago", in those exact words? I might as well argue that Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic takes place after the movies, since no one in Kotor says "By the way, that Galactic Empire we say this game is set before is the one from the movies". But if it's that big a deal that we need an EXACT QUOTE, then whatever. Let's argue whether the Occuria were responsible for Ashe seeing Rasler's ghost, next, since it's only ever strongly implied. --80.235.138.11 11:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, if my motivation in this is in question, I'm simply trying to provide some more info. The timeline has been debated like you wouldn't believe, so I guessed evidence from the game might help settle it. But okay, I'll do it elsewhere, since Wikipedia apparently only takes developer quotes...? *shrug* --80.235.138.11 11:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Anon, take care. Noah 22:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FFXII takes place BEFORE FFT, not after 

message: What I got is a Phobos Glaze, not a Phobos Leaf. But please do correct me if a Phobos Leaf actually exists as a reward in another Mark Hunt. I know that in the Japanese edition, it is indeed translated as Phobos Leaf. Please clarify.
: Kupo-po! I don't think you should discuss gaming stuff here, much less about a specific item. I suggest you find a legit gaming forum that discusses these matters and whatnot. 私はBluerfnです 19:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think he's talking about the supposed reference to the Phobos Leaf mentioned in the article. Axem Titanium 20:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phobos Leaf 

message: Is it possible to add the website:
Final Fantasy XII Europe
http://www.ff12-europe.com
It provides good information for the release of the game in the UK. Even though most would consider this a fansite, it's updated often.
Regards, Sophie
:It is indeed a fansite and WP:EL says that only one fansite is permitted per article, that spot being held by some other site I don't really care about. Axem Titanium 20:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That site would be good as a source, but not as an external link. I've added it to the to-do box. Axem Titanium 18:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a website 

message: The page looks like it was totally demonlished, and I'd like to know how I can fix it or how I can contact someone who can fix it. I love this game and I would hate to see its page vandalized like it presently is
65.9.212.241 22:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was vandalized by 63.193.91.60 (more than once). AntiVandalBot caught it the first time but missed it the second time. --Robomojo 22:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who messed with this page? 

message: I noticed the page had been recently vandalized, can we mark the page
to be uneditable by non-registered users temporarily?
ShinraShinra 07:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You may request for protection here, if you wish, though I'm not sure it's necessary at this point. Axem Titanium 22:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: Fran is the only non-Hume (human) character in the main cast, but on a human standard would be considered an "African-American" by skin color and features.
This would be OR unless you could find a source that explicitly says this (like the modelling of Ashe based on French features, which was based off an interview)  I'm striking it out.  ColourBurst 18:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, what about the moogles? They have clearely been a non-hume bunch interacting with the series for years, but would from a human point of view be considered norwegians by the lenght of their thumbs and their sometimes red balls hanging out of their foreheads. I know this. Please think about it in your future meetings with moogles.62.92.35.24 19:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fran's colouring/features 

message: Unless spin-offs don't count. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance got a 5/5 from X-Play as well. Just needed to point that out.
:spinoffs dont count... -Xornok 23:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  XII is NOT the first Final Fantasy to receive 5/5 on X-Play 

message: I just did a very thorough editing of the characters section on the main page. :)
However, since I replaced a lot of the text with copying and pasting from an edited version, I think all of the character links (to individual profiles) in the descriptions were deleted. 
Just wanted to point that out, in case someone noticed and wondered how it came about. I'm not very good at fixing things and I don't have any more time as of now, so I'll leave it be. Though of course, many thanks would go to whoever would add them for me. It's just adding some double brackets, right?
Xaari 22:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing of Characters 

message: I was looking over my game the other day, and noticed that the title you get for defeating the Marlboro Carrot is Freshmaker.  Since a marlboros signature attack is Bad Breath, I was wondering if this could be counted as a reference to Mentos (The Freshmaker) Crisco 1492 01:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That seems trivial almost to a fault and entirely not notable for inclusion. It is interesting, however, and you might be able to put together a list of trivia about FFXII somewhere other than Wikipedia. Axem Titanium 02:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia