Talk:Ani-kutani

message: I have added what notes I could in the standard Wikipedia:Footnote3 style. Please check them for accuracy, and provide any further specific source citations available. Thanks. DES (talk) 22:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cititations added 

message: The citations regarding the killing of men, women and children are disputable.  While Cherokee priests may have killed men, women and children, there is no reliable record of these killings.  The legends were probably stories exaggerated by European settlers whose racism, cultural dominance and ignorance of the native population lead ultimately to their demise.  No full-blooded Cherokee live today; even the tribal elders are 50% or less Cherokee blood.  The stories are shrouded in mystery; their origins, as well, seem to lack precise citation in this article. - signed by anon IP
: I disliked the claim of Cherokee Indians are killing other tribes ruthlessly or with no reason, what kind of interpretation of Native American warfare in pre-European contact times? There have been tribal warfare between certain number of tribes for thousands of years, the arrival of Europeans ever since have created alliances like let's say the British and Iroquois during the French-Indian war of the 1760's. From what I know by the mythology, the Anikutani clas was exterminated by the common people in a similar way a nation state goes through a proletarian revolution to depose a ruling class. The anon IP's claims of "no full blooded Cherokee" today is far fetched, the current tribal member blood degree quantum rule goes by the percentile of ancestral blood a person has, except nobody not even the tribal board themselves can declare someone completely "full blooded" in terms of geneaology.
+ 71.102.32.144 (talk) 05:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cherokee "women and baby killers" 

message: There is simply no convincing evidence as to the truth of this article.  Stories about a pre-Sequoyah writing system, for instance, are not supported by any serious scientific evidence.
Much of this sounds like "New Age" revisionism of traditional Cherokee culture. - signed by anon IP
: I don't see the point of the article, whether it's describing an actual event preserved by prehistoric oral record by the Cherokees or a repertation mainly by European-American historians said to hold a degree in Native American history. I knew the mythology behind the Anikutani priesthood of ancient Cherokee society, but the article is confusing on how the sequence of events happened or taken place. The Cherokee syllabary was a 19th century invention, not to revive an ancient scripture of a sacred religious caste. There are other myths of the origins of Anikutani were white Europeans (Celts or Vikings?), Semites (Biblical Hebrews) and east Asians (i.e. Chinese or the proto-Turks known as Turanians), but the most reasonable claim would be the Anikutani are another tribal group of peoples indigenous to the Southern Appalachians range once in control of the Cherokee people.   + 71.102.32.144 (talk) 05:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article is ahistorical 

message: For the "claimed historians" the preceeding sections on this talk page demonstrate A) the person commenting is not a Native Speaker of Cherokee.  (Wahya is not spelled this way in phonetics or syllabary) and B) they have little or no contact with the Aniyvwiya or Cherokee Society and are quoting out of the same inaccurate books (which do not even mention the AniKutani).   There are sections on Cherokee Mythology listed here and the existence of this mythology is verifiable and meets WP:RS and is accurate.  
I do agree that the comments about baby killing are unsourced -- and have been removed.  TsiGeGa 23:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claimed internet "historians" from Oregon State 

message: I updated and cleaned up the section on James Mooney, added Benny Smith of the Cherokee Nation Oral Traditions and creation stories,  removed POV materials, cleaned up artcle, updated sources.  
Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 02:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Updated article by Cherokee Editor 

message: This article contains a great amount of material that is uncited and seems highly speculative.  I would like to encourage one of the article's regular contributor's to attempt to find citations, or remove the uncited and speculative material.  If preferred, I could do this myself.  The Jade Knight 01:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is well cited.  Unless you are an expert in this area, perhaps you should consider relying on experts in Cherokee History to review these materials.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 07:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the materials related to the Mormon church since this religion has been established by Native American historians to be fraudulent cultural theft of Cherokee and Micmac Religious beliefs, culture, and language.  Thank you for pointing this out.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 07:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncited claims and speculation 

message: The organization of this article might need to be re-visited.  Under the "Current Status" section, most of the information seems to relate to origin legends/mythology/beliefs.  This information might be better located in the "History" section, or in an entirely seperate section? Mylorin 21:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization of article? 

message: The Grassy, MO group have sent me a formal request to remove any information about them from Wikipedia they considered confidential or that is classified as native american antiquities.  They further stated they felt that editors on Wikipedia were responsible for creating a barrage of harassment including harassing telephone calls by being listed here.  Since WP:BLP may apply in this case, I have honored their request and removed all uncited materials from the article. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If they have an issue, they should contact the Wikipedia Foundation directly.  If they wish to threaten legal action, they should contact the Foundation directly, and not through you.  -- ArglebargleIV 21:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not think it will get to that point since I am sticking to cited sources on this article.   They have been told the same.  I am more concerned about them being pissed off at me than doing something to me.  It's all about good will after all.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 04:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request from Grassy, MO Group 

message: Siyo.
Again this individual will try to shed some form of Ligth upon this issue. No, I don't have no documents, nor any educable degrees in any fields, except in life. So my words are just my words, yet with common sense.
Our Traditional name was, and is, and shall always be "Ani-yunwiya", translated into English (American verison) meaning "Pricinple Stock/Root" though normarly know as Pricinple people.
There did exist a Society of Ani-kutani, and in some ways still exist in one formare another. Yes, we could use the words "priest-hood". But those individual lost control, power way before the Mound Building era.... That is where the story/legend of the "Four Brothers" came into existence, comonly known as the "Pale Face One" that went East into the sea's.
The Story of the Four Brothers, is what brang into existence of the seven day fire Ceremony that is no longer preform in modern times. Back before Colonial times, every Village would build a gaint Bomn Fire facing the Eastern sea/ocean and it would burn for seven days and seven nigths diuring the spring storms, so that the Brothers and Sisters that traveled into the Eastern Sea would be able to return to their Home land. This went on through out the Mound Building Era.
Than many generations later, back around 800 Ad, when the lenape people invaded the East through the crossing of the Mississippe (Known as the Great River), at first it was a small group of Lenape families, Counicl was called and all the major red leaders wanted nothing to do with the Lenape, Yet the Medicine Society (which was never housed under any Band or Clan) 
thougth that maybe these werid (Lenape) people were kin of our Brothers and Sisters that went Eastward into the Sea.
Well word was sent out to all the Major Bands (Mound Villages) which was well over ninty some Bands, that Cahokia was goning to have a Grand Counicl pretaining to these lenapes.... It took years to accomplish this, bu by than more Lenape People cross the Great River, and little minor incidents delevoped, and as more happen people of both cultures were being killed, war soon delevoped.
Buy this time, Another Group of Lenape People were entering into modern day New England area through Canada.... And certain Bands of Ani-yuniwya in that area embrace the new people as being a part of them, while others didn't so war4 between familys delevoped, and after many generations of figthing, that is how the original Iroquois League began.
And at the same time, at Cahokia and a host of other major Mound sites (villages) fell to the Lenapes. The war reached all the way into the Ohio Valley. Through Out this time a lot of the Priest-Hood was being killed off due to the fact that they are the ones that were willing to embrace the new strangers (Lenape People), yet at the Same time abunch of minor Priest gather together in the East, which later formed in to what we know today as the Susquehanna (Priest/Warriors).
When the spanish touch down on the Island in the gulf of Mexico, Ani-yunwiya was a couple of gernations into rebuilding their Society back into their original form, where upon new diseases traveled northward and beganing killing off a lot of our Elders that still held on to a lot of ancient knowledge. Yes we still had a forn of Ani-kutanie in existent., and there were still Lunar as well as Solictis Priest men as well as women.
I think, not sure, but the last person that is know as holding knowledge of the Lunar was Dragging Canoe, though there are some today that do lay claim to some of the knowledge as well as a title, which the last part is debatable.
It is also a known fact that when a host of Southern Ani-yunwiya embrace the new religion in the mid to late 1500's, they began to build a power base, and as their power grew, they destoryed many of Traditional Villages and such that refused to give up their Tradiutional base of power which wasn't a power base.
Think, you take a hunderd people which all have equal rigths, equal voice.... It takes time to organize anything of importance. Now you take two individuals , sereparte them and give them a host of gifts to distute among the other ninty eigth people. those two people began to create self people of importance. As time goes on, you began to favor one of them buy gifting them more gifts then the other. The rest is plain common sense....
Now we are here in modern times, with three Federal base of Ani-yunwiya (Cherokee), and each one lays claim to holding true Traditions, yet a lot of our Ceremonies are not performed no more, the Law of Blood is forebidden, and all three are control by rules that are not of their making. Two of those federal bases lay claim to beginning the real Treaty Holders.
Than we have the sad fact that yes there are many of us that are living and breathing that are Ani-yunwiya that are not a part of neither Three Federal Base, and at the same time there are a host of others that may or may not have any true claim to the heritage that confess to being a Big Shot Medicine or Chief.
I for one, was born being of the Cherokee Heritage, and yes I have another heritages flo9wing through my veins being Ani-yunwiya (Cherokee), Chickasaw, Choctaw, Susquehanna, Mohawk, Creek, 
(And other unknown tribal Heritages) as well as German, Irish, Scott and other unknown heritages. Which one am I, I am all of them, but I was born and rise with the knowledge of being Cherokee, I didn't know anything of the other heritages into I was past the age of twentyone. Now I am in my fiftys....
Any one from the three Federal base, are no more and no less Cherokee/Ani-yunwiya than me or anyone else that has the heritage flowing within their veins. A person that is part Black (African) and part White (European-American) marries a Spanish-Japanisn, and has a child, what is the Child ? better still what is the person that is part Black and part White ?
Wado
Crazysun
Email crazysunzak@yahoo.com  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.84.137.125 (talk) 02:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ani-yunwiya 

message: I removed the "Different story" material because the contributor cites two books that both quote a paragraph from the same source. This is Raymond Fogelson - "Who Were the Ani-Katani". He states in the original that he is discussing two different things, the Ani-Katani and the "Cherokee Fire Kings". What was added to this wikipedia article relates to the Fire Kings, not the Ani-Katani. Fogelson also notes that he is taking dramatic license with both to explore Cherokee thought. Odestiny (talk) 05:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Different story"

message: Would "shaman" be a better word to use?... AnonMoos (talk) 01:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, shamans are healers from the Tungus tribe of Siberia. Conjurers are not healers. -Uyvsdi (talk) 01:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: "conjurers"