Talk:Roman infantry tactics

message: i would like to say to everyone reading this that this is a shared computer at school and we are doing research on roman/greek history etc... and i have noticed a few reverts on this page do to what has been done through this computer and would like to personally apologize for them...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.29.82.126 (talk) 16:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sorry

message: The roman carried the shield in an unsual way,while the greek and the medieval infantry used the shield with the arm inserted in it's hook in a orizontal way,wheter the romans inserted the arm in the hook of the shiled like they were carrying a bag,so the arm was perpendicular to the hhok.i hope someone understands what i ve said and helps to translate it in english.... Thanks a lot Philx 12:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Phil! Sorry I've not replied to you sooner. Yes, I'm having some trouble, along with some small amusement, understanding exactly what you mean by that. Did they carry their shields in bags? Or put bags on their arms to keep them from sliding off? I know the scutums had two handles, or hooks as you say, inside. The legionary would usually put his left forearm through the first one and hold the second with his hand. Sorry, I'm usually able to understand most of what you say pretty well. But this sentence I just don't get. I blame my own daftness more than your command of English.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 09:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Hi friend, I'm pleased that our project is going on pretty well,thanks to all that are helping us.The shield is a problem, they "wore" the shield as a bag,saying that i mean that they put their forearms on the shield as they had to carry a bag,the forearms was so perpendicuòar to the body, not that they carried "scutum" in a bag, i wish had a photograph, or perhaps i can post Vegetious's sentence in latin, I hope that you will now understand and translate it in comprensive english, I'm very sorry of that, wish had chosen linguistic college more than engineer, Thanks a lot for your help, Philx 12:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad to help out, my friend! Yes, our project is going quite well. I've now finished with the main article and can get to the last section I moved over from the legio where you originally started. I'll carefully remove the parts in it we have already covered so it won't repeat itself too much. I still don't fully get the shield, bag thing. But I do have a better idea of what you are trying to say now. When I read Vegitus, it was an English translation, not original Latin and nearly 20 years ago besides. Maybe I can find an online translation and we can finally put this confusion in a bag :> As for linguistic versus engineering colleges, from the standpoint of finding a good paying job, you made a more practical choice. This is perhaps, a quality you inheirted from your Roman ancestors who were very practical and also great engineers. Ciao Amico--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Hi friend, i ve chosen to be engineer for ,as you say, a more pratical question,and more english, for the pay!:) for the bag thing shield i can post some photos, that can be explicative, and what about if i post more tactics, that are only used in the late empire times, because Vegetius is a late latin writer, this tactics tells about comitanenes and limitanei and the various scholae, and i intended to post some legion's mottos , what you say? Philx 16:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi again Phil! Sorry, my friend, I've neglected our work for so long. I've pretty much completed editing the article now. Must boast It is looking good! We seem to make an effective team, amico. We now have far more information, and detailed, quality info at that, than could have been included in the Legio article, which is already large. The scary part is, the Legio still feels incomplete somehow. You make a very good point about Vegetius dealing largely with the late empire (don't forget the pseudo-comitatenses and palatinae :). I wrote a small section dealing briefly with the late empire for the article on Diocletian. I think posting some legion mottos is a great idea! Do you know User:Panairjdde? He also lives in Rome and has done a lot of fine work here on the legions. The two of you would have lots to discuss:> Ciao for now--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 05:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

text: hi friend,this project is almost completed, thanks to you and to all, i will add some legion's mottos , and the life of the roman soldier described by tacitus, I don't konow Panairjdde, i ll try to contact him and dicuss abot the roman infantry, thanks again a lot. Philx 14:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shield carried as a bag 

message: The article needs reformatting and spell checking. Otherwise good, although there is not enough information about battle formations. –Reply to David Latapie 15:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi David! If you would wish to contribute more information on battle formations, please feel free. This is an open project, so BE BOLD :>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reworking needed 

message: What reference is used for the mottos section? There is some discussion of the phrase "Strength and Honor" at this page: http://www.murphsplace.com/crowe/latin.html . One comment on the page seems to think "Vis et honor" is not the most natural translation of the concept. Was "Vis et Honor" really a motto of some Roman Legions, or just a translation of a phrase in the movie Gladiator? --64.81.81.225 01:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The same page http://www.murphsplace.com/crowe/latin.html seems to indicate that "Strength and Honor" (Latin: Veritate et Virtute) is the motto for the Sydney Boys High School, which Russell Crowe went to, and was his idea to use in the movie, not because it was an actual Legion's motto. Did the Roman Legions even have mottos, other than SPQR? Although "Vis et Honor" sounds great, please let's not fall into the common trap of having movies become historical fact. Without a verifiable source (pref. contemporary), we should remove this section. --64.81.81.225 09:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Veritate et Virtute means Truth and Virtue. Not Strength and Honor, which was not a motto of any particular legion, but a battle cry generals would use to rouse their legionaries before going into combat. It was more likely SHOUTED rather than softly spoken as by Crowe's Maximus Decimus Meridius. They had no boom microphones back then afterall:> I have removed the mottos section in view of your criticisms. But Vis et Honor does have an historical basis. So Crowe and Ridley Scott did not completely make it up.
 
The mottos are found in vegetious de re militari --Philx 21:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: There is an online version of De Re Militari here: http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/vegetius . I can't seem to find the Latin text online, which would help to see what the original Latin of the phrases was. Which Book and Section does Vegetius talk about what the generals said to the troops? In Book III, there is a section "General Maxims", however these probably were what Vegetius himself felt, and not the official mottos of the Legions themselves. Thanks for looking into this. --64.81.81.225 21:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: We might also consider, rather than having a motto section, we could have a "Maxims" section that lists some of the Maxims and references De Re Militari, or link to De Re Militari and add the maxims there (some of the ones found in Book III, "General Maxims").  We could do the same for maxims found in other sources. --64.81.81.225 22:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes in the latin text wich i've got the sentences are fond in the third book, i think you re right, perhaps saying generals  maxims is more accurate historically than saying mottos, but the problemi is that we can't know if these were really spoken by generals or only in some occasion by a single general, in fact i'm searching over Tacitus and Titus Livius to see if these are reported--Philx 02:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've checked your link about the english transaltion of vegetious de re militari and i might be wrong but it seems missing  of some passes, besides this, i think we should remove some, because i've checked on tacitus and livius and none of the vegetious mentioned mottos are found. --Philx 10:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mottos

message: thanks Ghost, i agree with you about the photos  and article order, 
*Primum do not slander anyone Silence, or critici what is done.
*Secundum the disposition you made wasn't, in my opinion is better  what there was previously.
*  Tertium explain why, the disposition you made is more professional. Explain  it and we may revert the things up, simply because i do not see the advantages of that disposition,If you would so kind to talk about it. Do you know besides all this, something about auxiliae palatinae? Thank you for any of you reply sir . Si  veritatem audire non vis nemo tibi dicere potestBTW Sis sic sit? --Philx 12:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Επι ταξεως'' ; ''De ordine articulo'' 

message: I changed some of the Latin here. "Agmen" is neutral, so "agminem" must be wrong. Also, "De oppido expugnando" doesn't sound like a battle tactic, but rather more like a chapter title ("How to capture a fortified town"). The wording should be changed.--Iblardi 16:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some remarks 

message: What about a shorter name somebody will eventually find on wiki?
"Roman landwarfare" for example? Wandalstouring 15:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In effect this would be more encyclopedic, and more esay to search any other suggestions? --Philx 19:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Roman military tactics" The current article does not concern tactics. It would be better off as "Roman military equipment". Wandalstouring 20:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Or how about Roman military system?--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  I think that Roman military system woukld be correct, what do you think guys? --Philx 11:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good, but perhaps you should mention the integration of naval and landwarfare. naval supply was important for the large numbers of troops in enemy territory (like in Germany, Romain ships on the River Elbe during the conquest), so it is part of the system. Wandalstouring 22:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a convention in the US and UK to refer to land based warfare as Military and distinguish it from Naval/sea-based. There is already and extensive article on the Roman Navy. Certainly we should make mention of it where appropriate and link to it.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 00:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming 

message: The move/renamming is now complete. As agreed upon in our discussion above. Damn I'm bold ;>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 19:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Done

message: I have to question the description of first spear centurion as equivalent to the modern rank of regimental sergeant major.  From all sources I've seen, a centurion's modern equivalent rank would range from an army captain to an army major.  A senior princepales would be closer to a sergeant major.  Here is one source:  http://www.unrv.com/military/legion.php (if you need direct sources, there is a link to the bibliography at the bottom of the page).  This is my first contribution to wiki, so please forgive any errors or faux pas I have committed.  Ben 72.131.78.96 02:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A fair point. Since the centurion commanded 80-100 or so men, he functioned as a modern company commander, a function fulfilled by captains in some of today's armies. At the same time his "non com" (non aristocratic back then) rank seems to be comparable to today's sergeants. How about you add a clarifier sentence tacked on to the original like this: "In terms of actual strength in troops led in combat and command powers however, his function may be likened to that of a modern Army captain." Enriquecardova 05:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly disagree. You can not decide the equivalent of rank by the number of mens under ones command. Today tactical infantry units are much smaller than a 100 or a 1000 years ago. So the commander of a smaller unit has basically much more responsibility. While a direct comparison to rank based on the numbers of men iy perhaps no good approach, better use a classification in enlisted, non-commissioned and commissioned officers. And say how high/low each rank was within such a group. This way you are on the save side. Traditionally in many armies commissioned officers were ranks mostly limited to the nobility, while non-commissioned officers were loyal men enforcing the officers control and having limited commanding power of their own. As far as I know the centurio/optio were considered non-commisioned officers in the Roman army. Wandalstouring 18:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Centurions

message: Good info provided by Wandalstouring. Added new paragraph to take into account such things as Gallic chariot warfare and provide room for additional examples for the Germanics/Gallics. Enriquecardova 08:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps one should restructure this to include the Iberians (to complete their enemies in Western and Central Europe). Polybius gives a good description of their tactics. Wandalstouring 18:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You raise a good point. The Iberians fought a hard guerrilla type warfare against Rome in their mountain regions for over 2 centuries. They at least deserve mention. Will plug in something in draft form, Maybe others can develop. Will keep it brief so we dont overlap too much with other articles. Enriquecardova 02:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A site on Gallic warfare (armour and tactics) http://www.gallica.co.uk/celts/war2.htm Wandalstouring 05:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tactical prowess of Gallics/Germanics on some counts

message: Germanic tribes or Germanic people did battle the Romans, while the word "German" is a 15th century invention to distinguish the people of Central Europe which priviously had all been called Dutch. I will change it in the article, but beforehand we should clarify such things. Wandalstouring 11:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Saw that edit myself and was going to change it but didn't want to start a revert war - given this editor seems sure they are right, we should perhaps wait for him to confirm he agrees? - PocklingtonDan 11:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We'dd already worked this over in the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/German military history task force if I'm not mistaken. Therefore changed it back, the editor should feal free to contest this here. Yet until conviced otherwise I'm admant on sticking with Wandalstouring on this matter.--Dryzen 19:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No real opinion on the word German myself. Germanic or Gallic seems to provide more coverage but either way could work.Enriquecardova 20:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germans did never fight the Roman Empire 

message: I doubt the use of horde is appropriate for the Germanic tribes as long as we aren't going to repeat WWI propaganda material. See also http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horde -> It is only appropriate for factions labeling themselves horde and not for the Germanic farmers and part-time robbers. Wandalstouring 08:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Horde could be viewed as negative in popular usage, although in one title the word is put in ironic quotes, in recognition of this. "Host" is more neutral or has a nobler ring, as in Biblical use, "captain of the host" or "the host of Syria", or something else more neutral. Enriquecardova 20:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the only reason to use any word other than "army" is when it is necessary to indicate that the group contained an entire tribe on the move. If one is referring solely to a group of armed germannic combatants, surely "army" is appropriate and neutral. Where an entire tribal group is being referred to, perhaps "band" or "tribal group" would be better - PocklingtonDan 20:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a reasonable distinction. I have no strong preference either way. Army could also work.Enriquecardova 04:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  hordes 

message: Really do we need every cozy image of Roman reenactment from commons or could we keep the quality standards we agreed to use? Thus only image which do provide helpful information. Wandalstouring 13:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  quality images 

message: Whoever was the main writer of this article, great job.  That was a heck of a lot of work.  However, some more pictures wouldn't hurt, and the article just feels...unwieldy.  Some better organization maybe?  There is a plethora of good information in this article though so I'm not sure what could be done to make it more manageable and concise, so I won't be editing it.  Ciao--PADutchman 05:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Great Job 

message: I added a short bit describing the specifics of sword and shield play, from depictions on Trajan's Column and other sources. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kozushi (talk • contribs) 02:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added some detail to the Training section  

message: I'm not going to throw a template on here at this time but as I pass through I notice a lot of small things. As to whether there are still big things I do not know - but the big things often get discovered when you confront the small things. So what I suggest is someone start from the beginning and improve all the spelling and grammar. I think we will find that it will be possible to condense a lot of it to save valuable space. Remember now, there is nothing sacrosanct about an article except for quality. A major concern should be standardization. The article right now is a mixture of various ways to do things. Especial attention should be paid to the annotation. So let us line up an initial detailed pass to be made by someone. You would be surprised what you can discover just by checking statements out. I see from the discussion that the tone of the work is now friendly so we ought to be able to move along and there are now enough good articles to serve as a model, not to mention an overall plan with box. While noting it still needs to be done I say I am working on other things right now with needs just as great. That does not mean I cannot get back to this in the future but meanwhile that is what needs to be done.Dave 13:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean-up

message: Unfortunately this article is loaded with assumptions that are only attested by contemporary historians. More ancient sources should be given, since the issue of Roman battle tactics is widely open to many historical interpretations. If there is interest to discuss Roman military tactics, I would be more than happy to proceed to it before making any serious changes to the article. So, please declare some interest and opinions to start the improvement of this article.
Thx
GK1973 (talk) 17:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This talk page is rather deserted. While I would not oppose changes, we do prefer modern historians over old ones. Vegetius for example has no first hand knowledge of the military structure he tries to promote instead of the Late Roman army model. Wandalstouring (talk) 09:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Havent been on this page for a while, but I have no objection to various theories being listed as long as the references are there, and the summary is concise. Goldsworthy notes that Polybius suggests the presence of gaps. I have no strong preference for any particular theory as long as the reader gets an understanding of the issues.Enriquecardova (talk) 00:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Absence of ancient sources

message: In the text a quote is provided by Goldsworthy :
"The Roman maneuver was a complex one, filled with the dust of thousands of soldiers wheeling into place, and the shouting of officers moving to and from as they attempted to maintain order. Several thousand men had to be positioned from column into line, with each unit taking its designated place, along with light troops and cavalry. The fortified camps were laid out and organized to facilitate deployment. It might take some time for the final array of the host, but when accomplished the army's grouping of legions represented a formidable fighting force, typically arranged in three lines with a frontage as long as one mile (1.6 km)."
First of all in the flow of the text of the article it isn't evident that it is just a quote. It is given as the article's opinion, so since it is a citation and not just a conclusion based on the given source it should be put in questionmarks. I do not insist on removing this citation since it provides a pictureful description of the Roman array but we still have to add information on the frontage of the Roman army, a chapter of great importance to those who elaborate on military tactics.
Reasons for disputing the information given on frontage :
The previous assessment was totally unsupported since it gave a frontage of a mile for what army? A legion? A consular army of two legions? "a line as long as one mile" is too abstract when not accompanied by the size of the army. For example at Cannes, the frontage of the Romans was over 3 kms... (about 2 miles) Of course it was an exception, since it was one of the few times that they used more than the typical consular army. And in Zama, Scipio used Numides who greatly extended his line as well as at a time post his principes alongside his Hastati effectively doubling the frontage... So, a saying like that is not helpful and too abstract to use in an article like that. 
Calculation of the frontage of a regularly arrayed Roman legio (Roman + Allied) of Republican Rome in the period in queation.
As far as the usual frontage of a Republican full legion of the 2nd Punic War is concerned (Roman and allied together), we have to keep in mind that the given number of the Hastati was 2.400 men (1.200 Romans and 1.200 allies) usually posted 6 men deep. This allows for a frontage of 400 men who were usually arrayed in open order, which accounts for about 1 m for each soldier. Thus, we arrive at the number of 400 m for the infantry line only (since the line was indeed uninterrupted and even when in quincunx order, the legions did not widen their frontage but posted the posterior centuries behind). As you saw, I did not include cavalry because there is a big controversy as to how the turmae were posted. Most theories have it arrayed 10 men deep (although this would make them only 3 men wide and most ancient and medieval tacticians propose to array cavalry up to 4 men deep, but there is much confusion here too), others even 3 men deep. Furthermore, the intervals between the turmae are sadly unknown and only assumptions can be made as to their exact size, by studying works that define the array of cavalry in greater detail, although sadly not the one in question. Having in mind that the legionary cavalry included 1.200 men in 40 turmae, each turma could have a frontage of 4 - 10 meters, which gives a total of 160 to 400 meters not including the necessary intervals for the usual retreats. Most possibly, Goldsworthy has assumed that the cavalry frontage was 400 meters (a number that with intervals would average the above calculations) and thus calculated the frontage of a full legion at 800 meters. Given that the usual campaign army of the time was the consular army, consisting of two full legions he may have thus arrived at the number of 1.600 meters. But, as history stands, this was in no way a maximum, as Goldsworthy seems to suggest by his wording (as long as...). I can give you contemporary sources if you would like to certify that the frontage of the Romans in Cannes was really much more than 1.600 meters and about the rest of my claims, but in my opinion, it is much preferable to give the ancient sources as well.
I hope I have persuaded you for the reason I found the specific comment inadequate and would like to add this kind of analysis (with sources of course) to such an article. 
GK1973 (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You have some grounds for flagging it. It is not actually a quote but a summary from Goldsworthy. He was referring there to a Roman  the "army" or as the section says "army's grouping of legions" not a single legion, during the Punic Wars- the Trebia battle I think. I would support plugging in your estimate of a single legion frontage as long as you have a reference per Wandalstouring, so that it appears alongside Goldsworthy's "army group" estimate. If you have a better source than Goldsworthy for overall sizes, frontage, etc go for it. You are quite right that a single legion, deployed in the usual fashion could not take up one mile. If you have any other resources that can be brought to bear within the general article structure by all means bring them out. Enriquecardova (talk) 00:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman legion frontage 

message: The way ancient texts are cited here (Polybius, Tacitus, Caesar) is completely useless. Please cite ANY ancient author as AUTHOR, TITLE, BOOK, PARAGRAPH, such as: Polybius, Histories, VI, 19-42 (this is the part where he describes the Roman army, for instance). In this way anyone can locate the cited text in ANY edition/translation. Domusaurea (talk) 20:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations of ancient sources 

message: It only references one source, and only presents one side of the ongoing controversy. I think Hugh Elton's work pretty much demolishes the arguments in the section anyway. 72.66.37.153 (talk) 04:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It presents info on how the forces declined not so much any arguments about the general empire. Hugh Elton reference added.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pourhouse (talk • contribs) 02:09, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Barbarization section is unbalanced 

message: I have been testing out these tactics on the rome toal war video game. I have noticed this formation is vulerable to being out flanked when facing the same or supior numbers. I have solved this by bending the flanks and thinning the units on the flanks to extend the line. Is there any sources saying the romans did this. Nhog (talk) 17:38, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman Manipular Formation 

message: There were other peoples Rome faced who put up a good fight. Dacians, Thracians, Persians, Numedians and Scythians should be spoke of too in the 'barbarian' section describing Roman tactics.--2606:6000:60C1:1D00:A463:F193:C09:E7CC (talk) 18:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Others 

message: A lot of the sections in the article have very little to do with actual Roman battle tactics. For example the sections on logistics, leadership and manpower. These aren't about battle tactics. And a lot of sections could easily be split off into their own article. Such as the section on infantry effectiveness. Ewf9h-bg (talk) 16:43, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article has too much information 

message: I've added a  tag to the statement that the first cohort was double strength. As far as I am aware this claim rests entirely on inference from one excavated camp in Germany, in which there are nine enclosures of equal size and a tenth that is bigger. It has been assumed from this that the larger enclosure must have been for a larger senior cohort. I don't know why it is not equally likely that the larger enclosure was for the junior cohort sharing with the pack animals. Is there a Latin source that supports the larger 1st cohort claim?Tirailleur (talk) 14:39, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size of first cohort 

message: The newly-emerging scholarly consensus for the past c. 20 years has emphasised, through various “face of battle” studies — ex. Sabin (2000), Zhmodikov (2000), Quesada-Sanz (2005), Taylor (2014) — the relatively looser order of the Roman legions, and the greater protraction of missile combat than that which was accounted for in the traditional model. 
These developments to the field have additionally worked to dispel the notion of the legionary as applying his sword predominantly to disciplined close-order thrusting; such behaviour runs counter to all period description (being entertained only by Vegetius writing with dubious reliability, from a later imperial era where swords were no longer in predominant close-combat use), does not align with the physical characteristics of the Spanish sword, and raises significant issues of consistency in explaining the disparity between Roman military equipment and that of other cultures historically known to have fought in disciplined close-order combat using thrusting weapons.
In essence, it is probable that popularly accepted models of Roman combat are aging and overly reliant on 19th century military biases; now that more recent scholarship has solidified a new model, with potential benefits to the continuity and cohesion of our understanding of ancient history, it is advisable to make a transition towards this more modern perspective. Melanoc3tus II (talk) 00:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roman Tactical Contention