Talk:Michael Portillo

message: I stumbled across the page today and was surprised at the changes to the infobox (I was not active on political wikis back in 2017). I looked at the page history and I thought I'd chime in with a proposal to, as the outcome of the original talk page determined, have his political offices offset by his primary notability of being a television host and historian. And I think a collapsed module, per Winston Churchill's page, appearing beneath personal details, per Justin Welby's page, would look very neat and very much to the taste of my politically inclined friends on the wiki as well as you and your friends too. This was not an option discussed in the original forum and I think it might be ideal. Thoughts? Alex (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This is my proposed infobox layout. Due to technical restrictions, I had to remove the website since for some reason it appeared beneath the collapsed offices but this can be moved to the External links section of the article. Alex (talk) 01:05, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Thank you for this sensible proposal. It's OK by me; what do others think?--Smerus (talk) 06:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

text: I like it, thank you, Alex. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

text: I like it except for having the shadow chancellor post expanded: can that be collapsed into another box (Shadow offices?). Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:05, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

text: Absolutely, I hope you like this new version (I also shortened Conservative Party (UK) to Conservative per the lead) and I'll upload that one to the page and if anyone else has any comments, we can go back to to the talk page. Alex (talk) 19:22, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I would put "shadow cabinet" between "ministerial" and "parliamentary", but otherwise looks good to me. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:50, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done, since there was no objection. Alex (talk) 13:58, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

text: His primary notable is as a politician. That is just absurd.--86.144.191.234 (talk) 22:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

text: Not sure why the politics had to be removed from infobox. He may have been out of politics for years, but his political career is probably what he's most well known for.73.110.217.186 (talk) 05:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The political offices are still there in the collapsed infobox tabs. Please familiarise yourself with the consensus before making a new proposal and stop your disruptive editing or you risk being blocked. Alex (talk) 22:46, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  New infobox proposal 

message: Given that all other Privy Councilors have the Rt. Hon. in their infobox (see for examples Richard Aikens, Tony Baldry, and Wyatt Creech, to name a few), is there much of a reason why this article should be singled out as not having it? 73.110.217.186 (talk) 13:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There was extensive debate about the present infobox before it reached its present format, and that format represents a consensus. What happens in other articles is not a reason for changing this one. See WP:WHATABOUT. Nor do I (or you) have any evidence in any case that "all other Privy Councillors have Rt. Hon. in their infobox." As there have been many thousands of PCs over the centuries, you might find that checking this claim is rather burdensome. The article is not 'singled out' by not having it; what you should seek to demonstrate (if you could) is in what way it would improve the article for WP users if it were present. As MP's membership of the Privy Council is not a major part of his life or raison d'etre these days, a stronger case imo could be made for omitting it - as you may not have considered that users of WP on (e.g.) mobile phones may find the infobox taking up their entire screen, and the largely irrelevant fact that MP is a PC will then occupy an inordinately disproportionate amonut of the information presented. Have a look at MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE - "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves [its] purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts [my emphasis] at a glance."  --Smerus (talk) 17:01, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking at the old debate, someone pointed out that its absence could potentially be misleading, as it might imply that he resigned his privy council membership, which is not true. Furthermore, if such styling is not appropriate in the infobox, then a lot of articles would need to be changed, so it doesn’t make such sense just to leave it at one being changed and leaving all the rest. Perhaps this would require a something to be decided among what the standard format for such figures is. 4.71.249.245 (talk) 17:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: While I have been supportive of the general move towards a simpler infobox I tend to agree with this proposed addition. Portillo remains a member of the Privy Council, and this is not simply irrelevant. As a small sample I have checked the first 27 names at List of current members of the British Privy Council (all those starting with "A") and 25 have The Right Honourable in their infobox, the sole exceptions being Sarah Asplin, who does not have an infobox, and Michael Ancram, who gained the superior title of The Most Honourable when he succeeded as the Marquess of Lothian. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

text:  As mentioned above, what happens in other articles is not an argument for what should happen here, WP:WHATABOUT. Were I interested in the other articles and not in possession of a real life, I would raise objections there where appropriate. The point to be considered here is in what way this title could be considered a 'key fact' as per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. I invite editors to read this MOS guidance. The argument that "its absence could potentially be misleading, as it might imply that he resigned his privy council membership" is simply unfounded, as it assumes without any justification that those looking at the infobox would have been aware of it in the first place. His membership of the PC is mentioned in the article amongst 'honours', together with the fact that he is a Freeman of the City of London, an FRSGS, and has an honorary doctorate at American university; readers are apparently able to survive without this other info being in the infobox either. Being a member of the PC is simply not a 'key' element of MP's life. It's mentioned once in the article, and no event of his life in the article refers to it or is connected with it. --Smerus (talk) 12:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Regarding the "its absence could potentially be misleading, as it might imply that he resigned his privy council membership", the poster who brought it up in the old discussion specifically compared it to Jonathan Aitken and Chris Huhne, both of whom resigned their privy council membership.73.110.217.186 (talk) 06:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

text: You have said that very clearly, and I understood your position perfectly well when I made my comment. Other editors might or might not not share your view. But there's no need to repeat it. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I was in fact replying to 4.71.249.245 who apparently had not read my earlier contribution.  Best, --Smerus (talk) 16:24, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  As mentioned above, the other figures mentioned by the other post mostly have The Rt. Hon. listed in their infobox, with the noted exceptions having nothing to do with its notability. Once could argue that for people like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, their membership in the privy council isn't key information, yet they still have the Rt. Hon. listed in their infobox. 73.110.217.186 (talk) 06:08, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I actually support inclusion on the basis that I, when looking at the infobox, thought that he might have resigned from the Privy Council like John Prescott had done. So I think it's relevant so as not to confuse people. Also, with what we've done previously to the infobox, the politics information is still less prevalent than before so this shouldn't violate MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Alex (talk) 20:59, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Rt. Hon. 

message: I may be missing something obvious, but can I ask why you made this revert  at Michael Portillo? The IP's edits just converted redirects to direct wikilinks, and I couldn't see anything wrong with them. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:34, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing this out; apologies, I was asleep at the wheel. I have re-reverted.--Smerus (talk) 14:21, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect reversion 

message: Can I ask you to elaborate on your somewhat gnomic edit summary here? I'd argue that generally the parties in any transaction are relevant to a discussion of that transaction; that something is sold often doesn't mean much without specifying to whom it was sold. In this case the "to whom" is the focus of the extensive coverage in reliable sources that exists, and, as I argued in my own edit summary, linking to the Annington Homes article, which contains more extensive discussion of the matter, provides a useful service to the reader. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 13:24, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I take the view that either the link should be included to provide minimal context or the whole sentence should be removed.I really can't see any reason for including it in its current form. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:54, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

text: Absence of doubt is indeed not proof; attestation in six reliable sources published over five years is pretty good going though. Whether  doesn't strike me as at all relevant; nor does the possibility , which as far as I'm aware no one but you has raised. But this is getting away from my primary point above: why, if you have doubts about the relevance of the content to the article, does that lead you to conclude that the material belongs in the article but on the proviso three words and one link are removed? That's what I continue to be baffled by. (If you want I can send you the contents of the Times and FT articles, or could point you to a handy browser extension...) – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It may not strike you as relevant whether or not Portillo was personally motivated, but you are up here against the rules of Wikipedia. WP is not your personal blog. You can't under WP:BLP use material that is unsourced. You also have to ensure that material is relevant and not WP:UNDUE for an article. The citations you present seem either ambiguous on the level of MP's personal involvment, or irrelevant. If you had concrete and citeable third-party evidence that MP was personally motivated, you might want to include such comment and citation in the article, although WP advises that potentially libellous material should not be included. If he was not motivated, then any detail is undoubtedly WP:UNDUE - not least because it carries superficially some implication that he was. --Smerus (talk) 18:02, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll give this one more go: why, if you have doubts about the relevance of the content to the article, does that lead you to conclude that the material belongs in the article but on the proviso three words and one link are removed? Having an RfC over those three words feels like overkill, but that's where we're heading if you continue to refuse to answer simple questions. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 20:53, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

text: My order of preference here is (1) complete removal followed by (2) inclusion with the link; the current (3) inclusion without the link strikes me as just silly. So I'm going to boldly remove the whole thing for now. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:52, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

text: Apologies again for the delay. I appreciate the clarification that you no longer think the material belongs in the article – a certain amount of confusion could, I think, have been avoided if you'd made that clear to begin with and/or edited to that effect, but that's by the by. I'll open the RfC in a moment. As I'm only able to edit intermittently at the moment, I'll add that if anyone has anyone issues with the wording of the statement they should feel free to make any changes themselves. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:50, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The RfC below has expired without any particularly clear consensus. I think it would be worth restarting it for another month. Does anyone have any objections or other thoughts? – Arms & Hearts (talk) 19:30, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be closed as no consensus - which means leave the article as it is. As it has been publicised on the aprpopriate project pages, it is clear that anyone who wants to say anything has done so.--Smerus (talk) 19:35, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll want to request a closure then. I suppose we could give it another 24 hours either way to see if anyone else weighs in here. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 19:51, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: 24hrs is fine by me Smerus (talk) 20:01, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

text: I don't believe that means that we simply leave the article as-is. It means we continue with WP:BRD, which would then be to either continue discussion or cycle with another bold edit. Reliable sources mention this in the context of Portillo as a significant part of his tenure in office, so I think we would have to see a justifiable reason for going against what reliable sources say. BeReasonabl (talk) 05:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks BeReasonabl. What do you think about restarting the RfC for another month? Pinging participants Jonathan A Jones, Pincrete, Levelledout and Darwin Naz as well in the hopes they can help us arrive at a consensus on how to arrive at a consensus (!). – Arms & Hearts (talk) 21:10, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: My first take is that there is no consensus to be had here, and the question is how one proceeds in the absence of consensus. And my second take is that I don't think this question is as important as the amount of time so far devoted to it suggests. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 09:09, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a fine take to have, but if the question is so unimportant and it's included in reliable sources, then I'd think the preference would be to include the information, not to exclude it. BeReasonabl (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Annington Homes 

message: Should this article discuss the 1996 sale of the Ministry of Defence's housing stock, and if so, in what form?
* Option A: the article shouldn't mention the sale.
* Option B: the article should mention the sale without specifying to whom the homes were sold, as in this edit.
* Option C: the article should mention the sale and specify that the homes were sold to Annington Homes, as in this edit.
– Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:56, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC: Ministry of Defence housing sale 

message: I've read the infobox proposal section that led to the current consensus for the infobox, however I'm still a little confused why this was proposed in the first place. He was an MP for 13 years, served on high profile cabinet positions such as Defence Sec. of State and Chief Treasury Sec. He is clearly a notable politician, much more than George Stephanopoulos, Joe Scarborough and Jerry Springer (who's political offices are noted in their infoboxes *not hidden*). If Springer's one year stint as Cincinnati mayor, Scarborough's six year tenure as U.S. Rep or Stephanopoulos 3 year tenured offices at the White House can be noted on their infoboxes, why can't Portillo's much longer MP tenure or other political posts be noted on the infobox (not hidden). TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 22:22, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox consensus (another discussion)