Talk:Shusha/Archive 2

message: Before the events in March in Shusha there was a truce, brokered by the British. Karabakh and Zangezur remained under Azerbaijani jurisdiction, pending final resolution at the Paris Peace Conference. The Armenian militants broke the truce, when they started a surprise attack at the Azerbaijani garrisons in Khankendi and Askeran and the Azeri quarter of Shusha, when Azeris were celebrating Novruz. These attacks failed, and the Armenian part of Shusha was destroyed as result of fighting. Even the Armenian sources acknowledge that it was the Armenian side who started the hostilities and broke the truce: 
Failure at Khankend sealed the doom of Shushi. As planned, the Varanda militia entered Shushi on the evening of March 22, supposedly to receive its pay and to felicitate Governor-General Sultanov on the occasion of Novruz Bairam. That same night, about 100 armed men led by Nerses Azbekian slipped into the city to disarm the Azerbaijani garrison in the Armenian quarter. But everything went wrong. The Varanda militiamen spent most of the night eating and drinking and were late in taking up their assigned positions, whereas Azbekian's detachment, failing to link up with the militia, began firing on the Azerbaijani fort from afar, awakening the troops and sending them scurrying to arms. It was only then that the Varanda militiamen were roused and began seizing Azerbaijani officers quartered in Armenian homes. The confusion on both sides continued until dawn, when the Azerbaijanis learned that their garrison at Khankend had held and, heartened, began to spread out into the Armenian quarter. The fighting took the Armenians of Shushi by surprise. Several thousand fled under cover of the dense fog by way of Karintak into the Varanda countryside.
Richard G. Hovannisian. The Republic of Armenia, Vol. III: From London to Sèvres, February-August 1920 Grandmaster 07:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see anywehere saying Armenians "aimed at cleansing the town from the Azeri population" That part of the sentence should be removed. It says they attacked when Azeris were celebrating Novruz, but doesn't say they wanted to cleanse the town from Azeri population. ROOB323 19:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is an Armenian source, isn’t it? Why do you think it would say that? But it confirmed that it was the Armenian militants who started the fighting in the city. If they had taken over, the Azeri population would surely have been treated the same as the Azeri population of Baku in 1918. Grandmaster 07:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: ROOB, I suggest you watch your civility. - Francis Tyers · 11:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

text: When was I a racist hater? It is true that both sides treated the civilian population mercilessly. Armenian sources don’t support what Azeri sources say about the aims of the attack, but let’s remove that part for the sake of neutrality. Sources on both sides agree that fighting broke out after the Armenian militants attacked the Azeri positions in Shusha. Grandmaster 07:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fighting in Shusha in March 1920 

message: Out of curiosity, why does this article use the past tense (especially in the opening paragraph)? (e.g. "Shusha was the second largest town in Nagorno-Karabakh...")
Shusha is a town in the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh.  I think that much of the sentences using the past tense should be moved into a history section (specifically under "Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast" section).  Serouj 03:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it was the second largest town. Not anymore. It's ruined and desolated. Grandmaster 13:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ruined and desolated would imply Shushi is in near shambles, empty and conditions are such that they make the town unlivable (in which case, none of that is true).--MarshallBagramyan 23:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's definitely not desolate.  I was there just last September and stayed at Hotel Shushi, which is a short walk from Ghazanchetsots Cathedral.  There are definitely less people in town, but you will still find a lot of kids playing in the streets.  I think this article needs a lot of work.  Serouj 05:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not desolate. I was there in summer 2005. Aghdam is desolate. Hakob 06:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think no comment is needed here:  Grandmaster 13:59, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I could just as easily post photos of the newly opened Naregatsi Art Institute center in the city (as well as plans by the ArmeniaFund for restoring cultural monuments). There are people there. There is life. It is not desolate and is being repaired. As I said before, Aghdam is the desolate one. Now perhaps we can begin to discuss richer topics, like the pitiful state of "non-existent" Armenian artifacts in Nakhichevan. But that would be digressing and is best left for other articles. Hakob 13:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of the past tense 

message: The coat of arms on this articel for Shushi should be changed with this one, because that is the new coat of arms of Shushi. ROOB323 03:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is illegal, as NK does not exist de-jure. Grandmaster 17:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't matter. We have the flag on the NK page don't we.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

text: There's no inconsistency. Read carefully. Karabakh was ruled by Qajars of Ganja during Safavids, until Nadir shah took that territory from them. And when Karabakh khanate emerged, Qajars considered themselves offended, as they considered Karabakh their heriditary land. Grandmaster 07:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, user ArmenianNY's point is valid when we consider the fact that, from the first days of founding of the khanate, the Azerbaijani Qajar dynasty, which since the 1790s became the ruling dynasty of Iran, has been unsuccessfully trying to bring Karabakh khanate under its control once again. On two occassions in 18th century they failed, on the third one (1797) only temporarily and partially succeeded, and on the fourth one in 19th century succeeded temporarily before being defeated by Russia. Hence, this statement, along with many others facts, such as the 1805 Kurekchay Treaty and testimony of other Azerbaijani khans, show that Karabakh khanate was independent. This contradicts the statement currently on the page: "of the initially Persian ruled and later semi-independent[3] Karabakh khanate (1748-1822)". The khanate was not ruled by Persia, and could not have been, not only because of who Panah Khan was -- he defeated the Qajars on Iranian territory, i.e,. south of Araxes -- nor was it semi-independent, as such khanates cannot sign treaties on their own behalf with Russian tsar or mint their money. So ArmenianNY is correct that based on this fact about the Qajar feud in the article, we should make the whole article more consistent and reflect the realities of the era, which was that the Karabakh khanate was fiercely independent from 1747 until 1805, and then from 1805 to 1822 was fully dependent on Russian Empire. --AdilBaguirov 19:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That line was a later addition to the article. Of course Karabakh khanate was independent, otherwise why would Aga Mohammed shah invade his own province? Grandmaster 19:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting -- I wonder who added this mistaken information? It should of course be changed ASAP, to reflect the facts and truthful state of affairs. --AdilBaguirov 19:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shushi Coat of Arms 

message: In less than a year after Shusha was founded, the Karabakh khanate was attacked by Muhammed Hassan khan Qajar, one of the major claimants to the Iranian throne. During the Safavid Empire Karabakh was for almost two centuries ruled by the clan of Qajar (of Turkic origin), and therefore, Muhammed Hassan khan considered Karabakh his hereditary estate. Abbas-gulu Aga Bakikhanov. Golestan-i Iram. Mirza Adigezal bey. Karabakh-name<
As far as we know Qajars and Safavids are different dynasties from different time persiods. This inconsistency needs to be checked. Otherwise I am going to remove it.
: There's no inconsistency. Read carefully. Karabakh was ruled by Qajars of Ganja during Safavids, until Nadir shah took that territory from them. And when Karabakh khanate emerged, Qajars considered themselves offended, as they considered Karabakh their heriditary land. Grandmaster 07:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, user ArmenianNY's point is valid when we consider the fact that, from the first days of founding of the khanate, the Azerbaijani Qajar dynasty, which since the 1790s became the ruling dynasty of Iran, has been unsuccessfully trying to bring Karabakh khanate under its control once again. On two occassions in 18th century they failed, on the third one (1797) only temporarily and partially succeeded, and on the fourth one in 19th century succeeded temporarily before being defeated by Russia. Hence, this statement, along with many others facts, such as the 1805 Kurekchay Treaty and testimony of other Azerbaijani khans, show that Karabakh khanate was independent. This contradicts the statement currently on the page: "of the initially Persian ruled and later semi-independent[3] Karabakh khanate (1748-1822)". The khanate was not ruled by Persia, and could not have been, not only because of who Panah Khan was -- he defeated the Qajars on Iranian territory, i.e,. south of Araxes -- nor was it semi-independent, as such khanates cannot sign treaties on their own behalf with Russian tsar or mint their money. So ArmenianNY is correct that based on this fact about the Qajar feud in the article, we should make the whole article more consistent and reflect the realities of the era, which was that the Karabakh khanate was fiercely independent from 1747 until 1805, and then from 1805 to 1822 was fully dependent on Russian Empire. --AdilBaguirov 19:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That line was a later addition to the article. Of course Karabakh khanate was independent, otherwise why would Aga Mohammed shah invade his own province? Grandmaster 19:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting -- I wonder who added this mistaken information? It should of course be changed ASAP, to reflect the facts and truthful state of affairs. --AdilBaguirov 19:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflict with Persia 

message: Artaxiad, stop moving the Azerbaijani name. The city was founded as a capital of Azerbaijani khanate and had Azerbaijani population at the start of the conflict. So Azerbaijani name goes first. Grandmaster 18:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: Sorry, but some things are not right in your article and you dont give opportunities to other people to improve it.
1. you wrote- "Shusha is a town in Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, next to the rayon of the same name". Maybe yes in de-jure meaning, but never de-facto. Maybe its dont make you happy but de-facto its a center of an Armenian region of a de-facto Nagorno-Karabakh republic so anyone needs permition of NKR authorities to visit that town. If a tourist read your article he can by mistake ask for it to Azerbaijani embassy...
2. When the city was founded in the middle of 18th century (citation needed), it had predominantly Azerbaijani (citation needed) population. 
Dear author I believe you never was in Shushi of 18th century so pls add some (maybe falsified azerbaijani) references.
I know surely these things:
in the place of Shushi was a town founded by Armenian Tigran the Great king (called Tigranakert) and also some armenian Khachkars and monuments of miggle ages are founded there. See for example http://www.golos.am/2000/april_2006/18/st03.html or www.karabakh-online.narod.ru 
So pls dont lay and dont use WIKI for political propagand! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.118.95.4 (talk) 20:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  stop political propagand! 

message: The article completely disregards 1000 years of Shushi as a major Armenian fortress and populated bastion (Syghnakh - Սղնախ). It belonged to Melik Shahnazarians of Varanda, and – as depicted in details in Mirza Jamal Qarabaghi’s book on Karabakհ Khanate – was delivered to Panakh Khan as a token of bilateral political alliance. Before that - when the Turkic nomads ("Azerbaijanis") had not entered the Armenian-controlled highlands of Karabakh - Shushi played a significant role in Armenian resistance to Ottoman occupation during the Turkish-Persian conflict of the 1720s. This should be included in the history of the city. Shushi was a pivotal part of the so-called Lesser Syghnakh that defended the southern part of the five united Armenian principalities of Karabakh (Hamsai Melikutiunner). There is an extensive set of West European primary sources on the subject. Zurbagan 03:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mirza Jamal states that Shusha was built in an empty space. According to him, there was nothing there before the city was built. And I restored a quote deleted by anon. Grandmaster 13:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: there are a lot of anons and new users taking out content en masse. I placed back all the content that has been there for months and was due to extensive deliberations. --adil 06:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-Turkic (Armenian) History of Shushi Should Be Included 

message: The giant sign entering the town says Shoushi. I'm not registered. Can somebody make that spelling redirect here please?
:Done. --Golbez 06:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shoushi

message: I did undo because the city in Armenian was removed, but all the other languages were left. ROOB323 19:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted Artaxiad's edit, which he marked as "clean-up", but in fact undid all my recent edits to this article. I also reverted his vandalism of some user pages. Grandmaster 15:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undo 

message: Google Earth images show numerous buildings in Shusha appear to be without roofs. Can anyone who is familiar with Shusha comment on this? Beefcalf 22:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question; I'm looking at it now and I see what you're talking about. Perhaps they're ruins from the war? The population of Shusha now is 1/10 what it used to be, so they don't need most of those buildings. --Golbez 22:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm going to thank you for suggesting I look at Shusha on Google Earth, as I had never taken a look at it; the geography of the region is amazing. That is a perfect location for a fort city. --Golbez 22:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are some pictures I found on Picasa(all the way in the bottom) [] VartanM 00:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I reverted another anon. Please discuss the changes first. Grandmaster 08:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I reverted the edit that changed the name of the town from standard spelling. Grandmaster 05:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Roofless Buildings?

message: I am reverting anon user who does not explain the rationale behind his edit.--Dacy69 14:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  anon 

message: I moved the list of names to List of Azerbaijanis from Nagorno-Karabakh. suggestions? criticism? VartanM 18:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added back the image of Azeri girl from Shusha, as the title of the page suggests, it's relevant here. I don't see why a simple picture of Azeri girl from Shusha is causing revert warring and disruptive reactions from User:MarshallBagramyan. Or perhaps, the attempt is to prove further that no Azeri soul resided in this city built by Azeri Panah-khan? Atabek 08:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Atabek, your accusation that MarshallBagramyan is racist against Azeris is an Assumption of Bad Faith. No one can dispute the fact that Shoushi was an important Azeri town and many of the prominent Azeris were from Shousha. Now can you please tell us what does this picture add to the article. --VartanM 16:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, the picture is relevant, because the girl from Shusha is in authentic national dressing. Besides that it also reflects the cultural heritage of Shusha in the 19th century. As for your accusations, go ahead report me, I am not the one removing images of Azeri girl from Karabakh here or pictures and videos of maimed Azeri children from Khojaly Massacre, it's yourself and VartanM doing and advocating that. Assume good faith. Atabek 22:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The Nagorno-Karabakh page has this image, and it doesn't seem to bother anybody. They both tell about the kind of people that lived in the given location, in terms of their attires. Parishan 10:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: List of names