Talk:Christ figure

message: This article could badly use sources and cleanup.  For the relevant examples, it should be easy to find sources that refer to them as Christ figures.  For others, which have few (if any) Christ-like attributes, they can be deleted.  Thoughts?Sir Isaac Lime 22:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idear - an endless list of characters could be conceivably referred to as "Christ figures," but only those with reliable sources are sufficiently agreed upon to have a listing here; I'll start on a few. V-Man737 01:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources and Cleanup

message: Interestingly, the term "Christ Figure" can be considered a synonym of "Antichrist" when the latter is interpreted as "in place of" Christ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmolinamuscara (talk • contribs) 16:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Additions

message: Removed the following examples.  There are still some that need sources, I just took out the ones that clearly do not come close to the archetype.
* Andy Dufresne in The Shawshank Redemption.
* Vash the Stampede in Trigun
* Rei Ayanami from Neon Genesis Evangelion. While not as transparent, some interpretations of this character pointed out that the three Ayanami's "incarnations" correspond to the idea of Christian Trinity: Rei I is the Father (the progenitor and the base of all others), Rei II is the Son (who gave her life for the sake of humans), and Rei III is the Holy Spirit (who embraces the entire world). Since the incarnation primarily shown in the series is Rei II, she can be overall considered a Christ-figure.
* Jack Bauer in 24.  (A little note about Jack Bauer: "Lying, torture, theft, and even cold-blooded murder are all viable options to Jack, a stark contrast to the vast majority of fictional heroes.")  From his wikipage.)
* Gandalf, Frodo Baggins, and Aragorn, in the novel The Lord of the Rings, each figuring an office of Christ as prophet, priest, and king, respectively.
*Arthur Dimmesdale from The Scarlet Letter. In the last scaffold scene when he acknowledges his sin of adultery, Dimmesdale becomes a Christ figure.
*:By confession before execution? Definitely a non-example.  If that's all it takes, there must be a million Christ-figures out there. And where does Christ ever confess to sin, especially on or enroute to the cross? --Thnidu (talk) 15:50, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen!  --Thnidu (talk) 15:50, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Examples

message: Heh. I accidentally hit enter before finishing my edit summary, which would have said "Restoring Spider-Man, no rationale given for deletion." Considering that it has a reference, it'll take some discussion to delete that entry. V-Man737 07:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure why that was deleted...the only thing I did during that edit was add one footnote.  Somehow, Spiderman got deleted as well.Sir Isaac Lime 17:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh! All is well, then. ^_^ V-Man737 08:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit summary

message: The game 'Hitman; Blood Money' follows the Christ storyline (lives, dies for somebody else's sins, returns to life on the third day.)
But a lot of people probably wouldn't like this allusion, so I thought I'd just mention it instead of adding it to the article. JimmmyThePiep 15:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Find some sauce for it and no one will think twice about crying over it. V-Man737 00:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hitman 

message: I don't have a source so I won't add them, but maybe somebody else does. Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter definitely qualify as Christ figures. Both are reared in obscurity and end up fulfilling a destiny that only they can fulfill. Along the way, they both show mercy to the undeserving (Darth Vader, Peter Pettigrew), are betrayed/abandoned (Lando, Ron), struggle against personified evil (Emporer Palpatine, Lord Voldemort), have wise and skilled counselors (like God the Father for Jesus) who cannot directly help them (Obi Wan & Yoda / Dumbledore), and, without a conventional use of power and might, save everyone else through their own selflessness. --Trweiss 03:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not Billy Budd? Besselfunctions (talk) 16:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

text: He's already in the article. -Phoenixrod (talk) 06:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, didn't see it in the films list, never looked at the literature section close enough Racerx11 (talk) 21:24, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Examples to add 

message: I'm taking out Simba. This is the sentence as stands: "Simba from The Lion King leaves the pride, then later comes back to become the king and save the lions from destruction, all under the spiritual guidance of his father, Mufasa." That's a pretty thin comparison, compared either to the New Testament or other Christ figures. Spiritual guidance of the father is in fact arguably minimal element in such representations and, aside from three crucial passages/scenes [the baptism, in the garden, and on the cross] even in scripture, but it's the strongest argument here (he leaves for emotional reasons, not because of a personal sacrifice, he returns to depose a corrupt ruler as much as save his people from "destruction" (which is really more starvation and exploitation). Finally, the only cited source, from a pastor's essay, doesn't even claim Simba is a Christ figure, *but* that Mufasa is a God the Father figure (an easier argument) and that Christians are like Simba. So I'm taking it out, unless someone can cite reliable or significant sources (really, more than a single essay would be preferable when it's not a common and widely held/easily sourced interpretation). In any case, Simba falls more clearly into the category of, say, Reluctant hero or returned prodigal, and one would have an easier time finding sources for that. -- Aleal (talk) 01:47, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. Missed that one. Still could use some clean up and citations, many of which I found easily using books.google.com. Sir Isaac Lime (talk) 03:53, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Lion King

message: The term Christ figure is also used in modern debates about theological relativism. For instance, theologian Roger Haight was censured by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for having implied in his book The Future of Christology that there were many Christ figures of equal theological value, and that accepting these multiple Christs was a pre-condition for a healthy post-modern historical consciousness. ADM (talk) 19:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Roger Haight controversy

message: Why was SpongeBob removed? He seemed to be this in The SpongeBob SquarePants Movie. --Austin Robinson 20:51, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  SpongeBob SquarePants 

message: I've removed numerous unsourced examples. Some of these have been unsourced for as long as 4.5 years. Some were downright laughable: " a similar manner to crucifixion (his hand is blown off with a shotgun)". Really? Here's the dif. If you'd like to re-add any of them, feel free, with a reliable source. I'm willing to bet there's plenty of, um, "information" included in this article that is not in the sources. I'll be working on trimming that as well. There are probably sources that aren't reliable as well. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:42, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, some of them were re-added. Now to check the sources, one by one. After checking a handful, it doesn't look good: not in source cited, not in source cited, not in source cited, not a reliable source... I'm sure there are a lot more. I'll get to them later. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: Shinji is a deconstruction of the Christ figure, he is placed in a situation quite similar to the challenges that Jesus Christ and mostly picks the wrong decisions. He had sacrificed himself for others by being the keystone to Human Instrumentality, albeit involuntarily. By rejecting Instrumentality, he had saved humanity by giving them a choice: whether to remain in the world as Lilin, or to join the aggregate in the Sea of LCL. He was "crucified" in the Tree of Life formed by the Lance of Longinus, Evangleion Unit-01, and the Mass Production Evangelions' A.T. Fields. It would be good to mention how his portrayal differs from others. 205.211.141.77 (talk) 16:33, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shinji Ikari 

message: Many of the refs are mere URLs, without title, date, or other information. I've filled some of them out with Template:cite web, but I haven't the time or spoons to do them all (sheesh!).
I also think some of these are pretty poor candidates for Christ figures, but if there's a ref for it I'm avoiding WP:POV deletions. But I definitely agree with , above (in Removed examples), that there are two significantly different senses of the phrase "Christ figure" in play here (italics added) —
"a Christ figure, whose purpose in the plot is to allegorically evoke the New Testament, and a Jesus-like figure, which is simply a figure that in some way resembles Jesus"
—and I would love to have this article whittled down to the former. The latter are endless and grade from the clear and intentional down to the trivial or imagined, with no clear dividing line. (And I don't think that "Somebody thinks it's a real example, see ref" is a valid dividing line there.) 
Please  me to discuss. --Thnidu (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs and definition 

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