Talk:Asian fetish/Archive 8

message: Can someone tell me what was the reason for the "The Role of Testosterone" and "Physical anthropology" sections to be deleted?Keff 10:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion

message: I refactored the approx. 152Kb Talk page to the archives. -- Gnetwerker 00:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Refactored

message: I removed this para from the "Stereotypes" section"
:Some feminist critics have argued that sexualization of Asian women is a subset of what they believe is a greater media prejudice against women in general. They argue that beauty requirements for actresses are much greater than those for men, and contend that attractive women often get paired on-screen with unattractive men but not vice-versa.
The problems with this are manifest, but mostly center around the reference.  It:
:#Does not reference "Asian fetish" or even Asians; 
:#The journalist writing it is not a (recognized) "feminist critic"; and
:#It is an opinion piece, and in any case a Primary source.
-- Gnetwerker 19:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Feminists" 

message: As the discussion here seems to be proceeding endlessly, but in smaller and smaller circles, I have undertaken a cleaning of the article, removing a number of sentences that have been listed as  for a long time, removing sections without citations, and reducing the confusing mish-mash between the "popular terminology" section (which is essentially what anyone who googles for "Asian fetish" will get -- porn), and the "Social Activist" section, which is what Wzhao represents as his POV (overtly, see his Talk page).  This will go (perhaps) some way to address Human Fetishist's concerns, but I doubt all of the way (as he indicates the article should be removed).  Feel free to edit this all to hell, but please do not simply revert. -- Gnetwerker 19:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm confused. Weren't you the one who wrote, "An Internet search[1] for the term will yield a mix of the term used by activists and references to pornography sites." --Wzhao553 20:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Insofar as cleanup is concerned, I'd like the term "Asian American" to be written consistently without a hyphen. I base this preference on the precedent established here: Category_talk:Asian_American-related_topics --Wzhao553 20:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem with that.  See below on the real problem. -- Gnetwerker 20:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't understand why a social activism section exists. Isn't the social activism usage a subset of the popular usage? --Wzhao553 20:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe my knowledge of Asian American studies is a bit rusty, but weren't Asian Americans the ones who first coined the term "Asian fetish"? As I recall, the pornographic usage adopted the Asian American term, not vice versa. --Wzhao553 21:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Where did the citations section go? --Wzhao553 21:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Typo.  Now fixed. -- Gnetwerker 21:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

text: The use in pornography actually goes back to the 90's. The use by Asian American authors goes back to the 80's. It has used in discussions about pornography of the late 19th century and onward, but that's not exactly the same thing as actually using it in the 19th century and onward. --Wzhao553 01:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: You are welcome to provide citations which support this statement. Until then, it shouldn't be in the article. --Wzhao553 03:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Let's see. You said that pornography involving Asian women was termed "Asian fetish pornography" since the 60's. I said that pornography involving Asian women was not termed "Asian fetish pornography" until the 90's. It then becomes your job to prove that pornography involving Asian women was referred to as "Asian fetish pornography" since before the 90's. --Wzhao553 03:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: My point is that the pornographic sense derived from the literary sense. My proof is that the term "Asian fetish" was not used to refer to pornography involving Asians until after Asian American authors started using the term. What about that do you not understand? --Wzhao553 03:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: "Kim has argued that the stereotype of Asian women as submissive sex objects has ... fostered increased demand in ... ethnic-fetish pornography."
So it would appear that the connection between "ethnic-fetish pornography" and Asian American social commentators is a sourced one. -- Gnetwerker 06:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm pretty sure that it was Howrealisreal who supplied that quote. --Wzhao553 06:48, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: There is no reason to change "Academic terminology" to "Postcolonial terminology".  First, the particular branch of academic theory is identified not only in the intro, but in the first sentence of the section.  Second, most readers will not know what "Postcolonial" terminology is -- we need to label the section something much more straightforward.  If there are candidates other than "Academic", please propose them, but putting in the name of an obscure sub-discipline of an itself obscure field is silly.  As you, Wzhou, seem to consider yourself an expert on the subject, feel free to add properly sourced material to the section as you have done, but I think the clarity of the overall article will suffer it the academic discussion creeps out into the article as a whole.  This is the stuff that previous commentators here have dubbed "unreadable". -- Gnetwerker 02:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Academic vs. Postcolonial 

message: This article still has major problems that need to be addressed, besides the POV issues:
#The intro is far too long, and goes beyond summarizing the contents into taking a position.  Regardless of the article content, it needs to be shorter.
#The "Stereotypes" section go beyond explaining enough of the stereotypes to clarify the activism position: they are mini-articles in themselves.  We have cut them down somewhat, but they still have undue weight in the article.
#While many have been removed, there are still a number of unsourced statements.  Ultimately this is somewhat inevitable, especially since several sources cannot be independently verified (because of their obscurity), but we should keep this to a minimum.
On the other hand, I think that if these things were addressed, we would at least have an article that conforms to Wikipedia standards, whether or not it is something to be proud of. -- Gnetwerker 02:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major problems 

message: Here is a link  to yet another op-ed piece on the subject, this one from the National Review! -- Gnetwerker 07:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  National Review article 

message: Perhaps some mention of the rule against interracial dating (not sure if it's still active) at BJU, which was based on a relationship between asian and caucasian students, should be mentioned? --NEMT 05:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That rule no longer exists. And it was initiated to discourage primarily black-white relationships.--ThreeAnswers 15:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's already mentioned in interracial marriage, which is probably a better place for it than here.  As ThreeAnswers mentioned, it was targeted for black-white relationships, but was also used for white-Asian relationships.  So their rule had more to do with interracial couples than with racial fetishes in particular. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 00:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the BJU rule had little connection to either Asians or fetishes. -Will Beback 05:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bob Jones University?

message: I don't know who added the line (supported by the DoJ's "Hate Crimes Reported by Victims and Police. Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report") that Asians were the most targeted group for hate crimes, but it is wrong.  Reading the report, it contains the quote I listed there, that "there is no significant difference ... by racial group".  The editor who added it read a table that listed 1.4 for "Other" (which includes both American Indians and Asians), and didn't read the sentence above it.  Not only is the difference not statistically significant, but the number includes American Indians, who have the highest rates of crime victimization, for reasons that I doubt anyone would ascribe to an "Asian fetish". -- Gnetwerker 23:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on Sex Crime stats 

message: There was no consensus about not including it.Polls only should help in decision making (wiki policy, s. Wzhao533's comment above). This section written by Wzhao533 and initiated by me is 100% correct , it can easily be verified in works of many of the highest authorities in the field, additionally the findings are according to common sense.Baker wrote the most detailed book on race in the history of anthropology, Knußmann is the author of the only recent manual on physical anthropology worldwide (!), Ashley Montagu was one of the most popular anthropologists of all times. Gnetwerker, infinity0 and assistance Prof. Steve Rubenstein deny these facts due to their particular interests obviously: Mr. Rubenstein is a Jew 
:It is always nice to know that our society is free enough that even anti-Semites can say what they think (even under the cloak of anonymity). Slrubenstein   |  Talk 12:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True enough, Slrubenstein. His freedom to spout garbage, however, doesn't require the rest of us to listen to it. He's free to say what he "thinks" in a form appropriate to such rantings. Wikipedia is not one. (And incitement to harm others, which this fellow has fallen just short of, should not be protected as free speech in any case.) Natsume Soseki 14:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Proof enough that you haven't read them. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 12:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm hurt; why am I not included, as an obvious leftist teenaged Chinese Jew with a small penis and a virago complex? --Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 13:34, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't believe this discussion is still going on about that ridiculous racist anthropology section.  I haven't checked in on this article for several months now and that same German racist troll is still here.  Unbelievable.  This is the same nutjob that claims "Jews are trying to control Wikipedia".  Why hasn't the Wikipedia community done something about this troll? OneViewHere 21:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know that for craigslist, if a user constantly violates the craigslist terms of use, they will actually talk to the ISP to get that abusive user banned.OneViewHere 21:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm....there's gotta be something we can do.  This German user continues to re-insert his racist anthropology section into the article even through the Wikipedia community here has already reached a consensus on it's applicability to this article.  Given that, the article should be placed in semi-protection mode.  If this user continues to violate Wikipedia's terms of use, the Wikipedia admins CAN go to this user's ISP and have him banned.  ISP's generally frown on people who abuse their service.OneViewHere 17:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anthropological section - 40% of the voters wanted to keep it 

message: Physical anthropology: 9 keep votes - however, Wzhao and I have both since changed our views to the section to DELETE; two users were from forums, and have not edited since; their votes to not count. That leaves 5 keep votes against 13 delete votes - 28% of votes.
Gnetwerker did obviously not change as he re-edited the crucial statement about racial paedomorphosis recently but denying this later (see above).Wzhao533 informed us about it about 2 weeks ago stating again "that he never had anything against the inclusion of the material". 
The role of testosterone: 6 keep votes - three of which are IPs, probably both you, one of the "forum users" from above, against 14 delete votes, one of which was the other "forum user" from above, giving 3 keep votes against 13 delete votes - 19% of votes.
So, it is not actually 40%, but 28% and 19% respectively, and all of the "keep" votes apart from you have since abandoned the discussion. -- infinity0 18:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't believe this discussion is still going on about that ridiculous racist anthropology section.  I haven't checked in on this article for several months now and that same German racist troll is still here.  Unbelievable.  This is the same nutjob that claims "Jews are trying to control Wikipedia".  Why hasn't the Wikipedia community done something about this troll? OneViewHere 21:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know that for craigslist, if a user constantly violates the craigslist terms of use, they will actually talk to the ISP to get that abusive user banned.OneViewHere 21:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm....there's gotta be something we can do.  This German user continues to re-insert his racist anthropology section into the article even through the Wikipedia community here has already reached a consensus on it's applicability to this article.  Given that, the article should be placed in semi-protection mode.  If this user continues to violate Wikipedia's terms of use, the Wikipedia admins CAN go to this user's ISP and have him banned.  ISP's generally frown on people who abuse their service.OneViewHere 17:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Real vote count

message: Wzhao533's (and he still hasn't anything against its inclusion)and my anthropology section are the only serious scientific part based on the highest authorities in the field. That infinityO evaluates and even denies the existence of Knußmann by counting google matches is ridiculous. Knußmann by the way is a strong leftist (believe or not) who strongly promoted animal rights, criticized nuclear power and was the president of the German Scientific Society (Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft) , the country's top (!) scientific association known worldwide where right-wingers never would be allowed.Furthermore , he was an important anthropological expert in the J.F.K. murder case who proved that two Watergate subverters (!)  were possibly connected to the J.F.K. murder case.
# Mr. Rubenstein denies that I have read his writing about the Shuar, but he has no proofs. Of course, because I have read it.  
# Boasian anthropology is a kind of distorted sociology/history/politics. Physical anthropology has been dicredited  by the mainly Jewish top Boasians which has been  a great loss to science. Knußmann even was terrorized by leftists who were able to block his work  misunderstanding him as he was a liberal like them.That someone categorizes races  does not mean that he is a Neo-Nazi.
# The wiki article "Mongoloid" written by wiki leftists is just doing  this very same thing : giving racial types thus avoiding the correct names. It was not acknowledged when I improved this slightly. Once again: the leftist themselves are  categorizing races  but were angry when I wanted to improve this terminological hotch-potch a bit.This is contradictory.
# Gnetwerker first rejected racial paedomorphosis  , then re-edited it, then denied this again.This is self-contradictory and shows he is incredulous
# Many comments were made by others about the undeniable facts of the Mongolids racial paedomrophosis ("go to a China town"), but everything was ignored by the leftists.
# As America is to weak to maintain the European bridgehead , European science will become free again when China becomes the only superpower in the world in 35 years. A natural  Eurasian alliance of the  EU, Russia and China will end Anglo-Zionists dominance forever. As Han nationalism (Sinocentrism) is highly xenophobic ("Western foreign devils", thanks to the opium wars e.g.)which cannot be altered in the foreseeable future (even Aridou Debito's subversion has  only superficial impact on Japan), the Chinese will not cooperate with Americans and Jews in the long run. The American subversion of China (Falun Gong is a CIA-controlled organization with its headquarters in New York (!),promoting a second Taiping revolt) will fail.Anglo-Zionists will perish themselves due to the sicknesses they  generated for the "denazification" of the world. In the moment, everybody in China is free to write freely about anthropological Western viragos like Prasso (who is envious of Asian womanhood and femininity ), about the Boasian-Jewish manipulation of science as it is done e.g. on "bbs.chinadaily.com.cn" and the malign influence of Jews especially on the city of Shanghai. No country in the world is freer than China.That a state of 1.3 billion peoples must be ruled with an iron fist is a general necessity. Even the false Einsteinian relativity theory can be criticized in China which is nearly impossible in the West (space is no matter, but merely a category of perception as Kant stated correctly destroying the Einsteinian nonsense). And it can be written freely that China as one of the 5 autochthonous civilizations (Shang culture at the Huang Ho)) has a great racial potential.So I am no White suprematist, I am a Chinese (!)suprematist.
# Truth cannot be found by democratic means. And it cannot be abolished or destroyed.Jewish power will decline in the long run. Mixing with gentiles, outcompeted by Asians (Harvard is a recent example) , population decline (3.5 millions in the US in 2050), rising Anti-Semitism in the West due to the leftist-induced impoverishing of the Whites and the Muslim atomic threat to Israel (Mossad  experts admit remorsefully that they cannot control e.g. Iran in the long run) will further weaken them.Now the time has come for the glorious  race of the Han. Jewish hate propaganda like "Sky captain and the world of tomorrow" cannot change this.
# These geostrategist thinking is inspiring me to take the manichaistic notion of the eternal dualism into account again, the old Zarathustrian belief of the evil forces fighting with light.
This has been no naive over-simplification of the world , there is much truth in it. Can there really be no end in history ?
"Es gibt kein richtiges Leben im falschen."(Theodor W. Adorno, Frankfurt School)80.138.136.143 13:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Infinity, old friend - he is an anti-semite, coward, liar, and fraud.  Please, just ignore him. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 09:30, 3 April 2006 
 -- Please don't feed the trolls!
Assistance Prof. Rubenstein (Athens, Ohio)is smear campaigning now (definitely !, see previous edit)-Don't feed the trolls !
(UTC)Ximin,  Rubenstein is only a Jewish manipulator of science who will drive  science out of China, too, by introducing  thought control of the anthropological virago and race introducing the Boasian multi-culturalism, too (like David Aldwinckle in Japan), to start the Han's decline. While I have read his work about the Shuar online (pdf), he never made any attempt to read the Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual or Baker and denied the existence of the virago concept up to now in contrast to old Boasians like the Jew Ashley Montagu who propagated Mongolid  racial paedomorphosis. Like me,Wzhao533 has nothing against the inclusion of the anthro sec he has written as it  only presents " one line of reasoning ".Rubenstein is now smear campaigning showing his real face.And that he calls you a friend is grotesque. It is as grotesque as to call the Jewish people friends of the Americans or the Chinese  as the Jews  ghettoized themselves in America up to now  after Irish, English, Germans and Russians have been assimililated for centuries ,  destroying Irak now(Ximin, and please acknowledge that Jewish Neocons are leading this war like the "denazification" of the whole world). They  now want to eat  Eurasia finally, the "earth island". Replace the word "America" by "the Jews and their American helpers" in the books of Brzezinsky  , then you have it.As  the Jews feel that they are under pressure from China they make anti-Asian and anti-German propaganda just like in "Sky captain and the world of tomorrow".Nothing has changed, Ximin. While you know that I have a deep insight into Asian matters , Rubenstein even has no insight into easy matters of physical anthropology. While Rubenstein presents the Shuar in a  positive light who lack any Western universal  ethos to show indirectly the white man how superfluous his culture is, other Jews present Chinese and Germans as monsters in "Sky captain and the world of tomorrow"" by this Dr. Totenkopf  & Chinese robot puppet bull.Ximin, if you want you and your people to be happy, rich and powerful, then think about my words again, please. 80.138.185.124 10:39, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, I never thought in a million years someone would be able to tie "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow" into this discussion.  Looks like our German friend is one pancake short of a stack.OneViewHere 17:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yay!  I'm doing my "leftist round dance" right now.  A little electric slide with a running-man thrown in for good measure!OneViewHere 18:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Sigh, I guess you are correct.  Leave it to a Boasian collaborator with illusions of Zarathustrian dualism to put a damper on racial paedomrophosis while denying me my right to a leftist round dance.OneViewHere 20:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Defending my views 

message: If the vandal is really gone, how about we archive this page and start with a clean slate? -- Gnetwerker 21:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen, brother! Sunray 21:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archive?