Talk:Symphony No. 8 (Schubert)

message: It seems that this symphony was not unfinished but put aside because very personal: Schubert seems to have had a dream which marked him deeply and which he remembered in every detail. This symphony counts this vivid dream and represents its musical realisation or its analysis - psychoanalysis, even if this word was not yet invented, but most of the romantics analysed their dreams - . I can't find any book or encyclopedia that talks about this, if anyone has suggestions plz let us know.
There's a "citation needed" note for the comment in the first paragraph about the "B minor entr'acte from Schubert's incidental music to Rosamunde".  Anthony Burton wrote liner notes to the Deutsche Grammophon recording of the Unfinished, performed by the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Guiseppe Sinopoli.  (DG Dig 445 514-2: the 1999 Penguin Guide awards a rosette to the performance.)  Burton's liner notes say:
"It has been suggested that the powerful Entr'acte in B minor from Schubert's Rosamunde incidental music of 1823 is the missing finale of the Symphony, and indeed it is a match for the first two movements in scoring -- with three trombones added to the standard classical orchestra -- as well as in key."
The 99 Guide also reviews a set of Schubert symphonies by the Academy of St Martin in the Fields conducted by Neville Marriner (Phillips Dig 412 176-2) on page 1244, writing that the Unfinished is "here completed with Schubert's Scherzo filled out and the Rosamunde B-minor Entr'acte used as finale".  
Do those count as "citations"?  References to this business of the B-minor Entr'acte seem to be common knowledge in the field, so maybe we don't really need a citation.
Jim Hardy 19:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Today's anonymous addition: "One possible reason for Schubert's leaving the symphony incomplete is the predominance of the same rhythm (three-in-a-bar). The first movement is in 3/4, the second in 3/8 and the third (an incomplete scherzo) also in 3/4. Three movements in a row in exactly the same rhythm does not occur in any of the symphonies, sonatas or chamber works of the great Viennese composers."
Three comments: (1), yes, well, it may be a possible reason, but are we dealing here with the contributor's speculation, or can this theory be referenced?
(2) It probably shouldn't be in the head summary but in a later portion of the article.
(3) That's an AWFUL lot of "symphonies, sonatas and chamber works". Again, can we have a reference to support the statement, or are we supposed to check by going through them all ourselves? Cenedi (talk) 10:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Also: Haydn 45. Double sharp (talk) 17:24, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three in a bar 

message: Contrary to what was asserted earlier, horns and trumpets could most certainly be crooked -- or keyed -- in B natural: this is a very unlikely reason for the work to have remained difficult to finish. Additionally, there are many examples in the works of previous composers requiring horns and trumpets to change their crooks if the music uses harmonies too foreign to the instruments' crooks. Unless there are citations to support the idea that the piece was left unfinished because of difficulties in orchestrating for the brass instruments, this idea should not be presented. 
User:JosiahboothbyJosiahboothby (talk) 23:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It makes more sense for the D.708a fragment: despite being in D major, the climax in the finale is in A-flat major, meaning that despite the brass instruments being sorely needed at such a climactic moment, they can't play... (Newbould points this out as a reason why many of the sketched symphonies were never orchestrated. Although it does make me wonder why Schubert would write this way for a projected symphony, if he knew it would cause orchestration problems...) Double sharp (talk) 17:28, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

text: (Nevertheless, crooks in B natural were not easily obtained at that time, so it may well have been a reason. Haydn had to specifically ask for crooks for F-sharp and B natural for his 45th and 46th symphonies, and even then he got what could be called a "semitone extensor" that would lower the pitch by one semitone, making a G horn into an F-sharp horn.) Double sharp (talk) 08:12, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Horn and Trumpet keys 

message: Wasn't it featured prominently in the Casper the Friendly Ghost short "Boo Bop"?
minespatch 19:24, 8 February 2009 (PT)
:I don't recall the exact title, but I recall an episode from the 1950s series that dealt with Casper meeting Schubert (or his ghost) in which he assists him in wrapping up the work, complete with a performance of self-playing instruments. 99.40.197.2 (talk) 06:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Casper the friendly ghost?

message: Did you know that the Symphony was used as the theme song for Gargamel? 70.188.129.194 (talk) 15:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. All the pop culture stuff has been removed. After a while, the numerous references tend to dominate and at some point completely take over the article. DavidRF (talk) 16:52, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Rosamunde was not an opera, it was a play with incidental music.  The play itself is lost, though its plot is known.  Otherwise, only Schubert's music survives.Kostaki mou (talk) 05:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

text: To be honest, I don't really like his scherzo. It just isn't as interesting as the first two movements, to me. Hans Gál's writing on this scherzo is really worth reading. Maybe something that should be tried is discarding the scherzo altogether and just playing the relevant entr'acte from Rosamunde as the finale. (Because the end of the scherzo is just too similar to the beginning of that entr'acte.) Legge's completion on IMSLP has the scherzo segue directly into the finale with an attacca: it is an interesting idea, but I don't think it really works completely?! Just my $0.02. Double sharp (talk) 17:23, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smurfs 

message: It would be very nice to have written musical examples and more of an analysis of the work. Something less simplistic. Gingermint (talk) 04:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Written Musical Examples 

message: I find this somewhat confusing as it implies there is a complete piano score for the scherzo. From what I have read it exists only as fragments. Clarification or a citation is needed here.Graham1973 (talk) 23:07, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is, sort of (it's not completely scored: it thins out towards the end and by the time he reaches the trio only the melody is present). p.11-13 of this pdf contains the sketch. Double sharp (talk) 17:09, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the first two pages of a scherzo in full score, and the remainder of the scherzo in piano score" 

message: I'm interested to listen to the Rosamunde entr'acte cited as possibly intended as a finale for the symphony.  However, there are two entr'actes and neither of them appears to be in B minor, so I'm confused!  The URL [1], makes no reference to Rosamunde or to any entr'acte.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed Addis (talk • contribs) 17:24, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the first one. For some reason on YouTube you will typically see the D major one as No. 1 (and the B-flat major one as No. 2), bumping them all down by one. There are really three. Various recordings of Newbould's completion of this symphony are available; the fourth movement is this entr'acte. Double sharp (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rosamunde B minor entr'acte 

message: What is this drivel?
:That Hüttenbrenner neither had the work performed, nor even let the society know he had the manuscript is curious and has spawned various theories. Was he given an incomplete score by Schubert and was waiting for the rest before saying anything? If so, he waited in vain throughout the six remaining years of Schubert's life. After Schubert's premature death in 1828 (of typhus as a complication of syphilis), why didn't Hüttenbrenner then make the existence of the manuscript known? Do the torn pages suggest he had somehow damaged the piece and managed to lose, or even inadvertently destroy, the last two movements?[5] Was guilt therefore the reason he kept silent about the work's existence for 37 years after Schubert died? Could personality factors like introvertedness or jealousy have been at play here?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.228.159 (talk) 15:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's not a great article at all, is it? Fortunately, there are a ton of studies on this symphony, so fixing it should not be a problem, and you could do it yourself if you wanted to. The Hüttenbrenners did indeed act very strangely about their posession of this symphony, but of course we should not included speculation, other than that which can be cited to reliable sources. Double sharp (talk) 13:07, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Horribly written, not like an encyclopedic article 

message: Regarding this and the remaining horribly-written sections quoted above, we've known that most of it has been wrong since 1968, when, to quote Brian Newbould (Schubert and the Symphony, p.181), "Christa Landon discovered a second page of the full score of the scherzo (up to then it was thought only the first page existed) it was established that Schubert had cut this page out of the score before sending it to Hüttenbrenner, and that this was definitely the last page to be scored by Schubert, as blank pages follow it. The first page of the scherzo could not be removed, as it backed on to the last page of the slow movement." Double sharp (talk) 15:28, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the first two pages of the start of a scherzo"