Talk:Māori culture

message: This article contains spelling errors, inaccuracies, but most seriously is very limited in scope.
:Most of the spelling mistakes are gone. The inaccuracies are those of emphasis rather than fact. It is limited in scope because it is a huge subject, megabytes.  "English Culture" is described in Wikipedia under many different articles and Maori Culture, and I don't mean singing and concerts, is fully as complex.  Concepts such as Wairua, Muru, Utu, Whakama, Whakapapa, Tangata Whenua, Tapu and many others all need explanation.  A very difficult article to write properly. Meanwhile this is a good start. ping 08:16, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Critique of article

message: There is a quite a lot of duplicated content between this article and the Māori article (which also has similar problems of tone and content etc.) There are also some other more specifically titled articles/stubs, eg, the one about Haka - (a topic mentioned here and in the Māori article).
I'm thinking that the Māori article - with its non-specific title -  should be something like a disambiguation page that contains links to specific articles like Māori culture, Māori language, Haka, Māori music, Religion. This article here seems to have fallen asleep - it isn't as easy to find, whereas the Māori article is.
Anyone object if I gradually move stuff out of Māori into the more specific articles?  Kahuroa 19:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What you suggest seems very sensible to me.  Bucketsofg 18:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Duplication of articles

message: Just a note that I've put a bunch of high-quality svg images of Kowhaiwhai patterns on Wiki Commons (e.g. ) in commons:Category:Maori art.  They're from Hamilton's 1896 Maori Art and since he's been dead since 1913 they're free of copyright.  I'm a mathematician, interested in symmetry patterns and plan to use these as examples, but I thought someone who knows a little about Maori culture might want to use them somewhere on this page/on a new page.Bryanclair (talk) 04:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Kowhaiwhai Patterns

message: This article could do with more references to non-traditional culture related to the Maori, e.g. Maori hip hop, the Maori sports teams and so on.--MacRusgail (talk) 09:18, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-traditional culture 

message: I propose to merge the source page Ancient Māori culture into this destination page Māori culture.
# The source page has no evidence (verifiable, NPOV, or otherwise).
# The source page contains information, which relates to this page.  For example, both pages discuss pre-European history.
# The primary difference between the source and destination pages is the adjective 'ancient'.  The use on the source page may be intended to be similar to wikt:ancient, but evidence is not provided to indicate whether this is so or not.  If the intention is per wikt:ancient, there is no indication of why this is important. --Te Karere (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Support: There isn't much information in AMC, and nothing that can't be mentioned here. – Liveste (talk • edits) 08:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger Proposal 

message: Recent academic evidence is that Maori followed a fairly standard pattern of cultural behaviour in their transition from hunter gatherers to a more settled agricultural  based society. Normally there is more violence in this stage as farmers come to terms with the variability of weather and soil conditions. During famine inter group violence was normal in most primitive societies. It was normal for about 10% of the population to die violently. The main underpinning for violence was hunger and starvation. Successful settled communities gave rise to leaders who could grow crops and defeat enemies. Religious rites become more common /obvious in the form of Kumara protection icons. Evidence is clear that starvation gives rise to cannabalism. Power became focussed in the hands of the tribal chief/tohunga who protects the tribe and is the source of all accumulated knowledge -mystical and otherwise. This explains the rise in the key ideas of mana and the critical importance of family relationships and intermarriage into other groups. Both these mechanisms gave protection to the less able within a group. These gave rise to the critical importance of oral knowledge for practical everyday purposes and to protect the political integrity of the whanau, hapu or iwi. In Maori culture story telling reinforced the prestige/mana of the group. Historical accuracy was neither possible(for want of written records) or in some cases culturally desireable. It was easy for past blunders,mistakes or stupidity to be "forgotten out"of Maori history. Especially as ideas of morality changed with the arrival of western civilization Maori went to great lengths to hide cultural practices they knew were abhorent to the new arrivals. One of the challenges for historians is to recognise when Maori are indulging in the ancient practice of historical distortion to protect reputation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 21:45, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Daveosaurus (talk) 08:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early cultural patterns-world trends reflected in Maori behaviour 

message: I feel sure that most casual visitors to this page would expect it to have: (a) Detail on the pre-European culture(s) of the Māori, and (b) Current culture information. How one became the other is also relevant of course - but recent additions by 122.62.226.243 are swamping the revelant under a deluge of historical detail that is just not required. It needs a severe trim. Snori (talk) 06:24, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: agree this page is becoming a real mess - much of what is being added does not add to the description of Māori culture.  I am having trouble even deciding how to tidy it.Andrewgprout (talk) 08:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok I'm going to be bold - The latest edit  that goes into some esoteric detail on kumera may be useful but I personally can see no relevance to Maori Culture. Next will be Moa, and then.....  I,m going to undo.
122.62.226.243 please discuss this here so we can come to a consensus about what is sensible to add on a page specifically about Culture.Andrewgprout (talk) 06:24, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

text: Typical editing behaviour of 122.62.226.243 — essays based on original research with a token and purposefully vague citation tossed in from time to time. A very firm hand is needed here to retake control of the page. BlackCab (talk) 07:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: When?

message: Culture is not a fixture,it changes - sometimes dramatically over time. Important causes of change are contact with people from a new culture, a major disaster or the introduction of new food and technology . This is what the article is about. Culture is not just what is practiced now. That is why the article is divided into commonly recognized time periods because each period was caused by significant change ie the arrival of the first polynesians,then the gradual forced change is food source through over use and increasing population and probably climate change,then the arrival of Europeans with their culture. Editors who are knowledgeable are welcome to add additional new information provided they include  references. If the concepts are still current and widely used they should be in the latter part of the article.If they were mainly practiced in the past ie they are historical they should be included in the appropriate time period and section. Claudia  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 21:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: dear ip 122.62.226.243 nobody is suggesting that Culture is static,   Most of what you are putting in this page does not relate to culture in any way other than "everything relates to culture to some degree".  Most of what is currently in this page needs to be deleted as it is usually covered much better and accurately elsewhere in Wikipedia.  Can we come to some consensus about what the scope of this page is.Andrewgprout (talk) 04:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

text: Maori culture isn't so broad that you need to include paragraphs on why missionaries and other settlers wanted to buy land off Maori, though. Land use and trading is economic history, not culture.  And why tell it from the point of view of missionaries and settlers, when they so often have a distinct agenda in modifying that culture and acquiring that land? Tirana (talk) 04:35, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

text: You're writing original research by describing all these interactions and drawing conclusions from them.  You're obviously committed to writing about this topic - why don't you try reading some Maori sources on concepts of Maori culture and outlining what they say, rather than setting out your own conclusions, or those of a very selective bunch of sources.  What I'd expect, from a knowledgeable and neutral POV, is less "according to missionaries, they were arrogant cannibals" and more about whenua and placenta burial, about Papatuanuku, things like that - something that doesn't implicitly write off the Maori point of view as biased without recognising that the Pakeha point of view is as well.  In any case, unless Vincent O'Malley used the phrase "advanced culture", it doesn't belong in this article. Tirana (talk) 00:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture Changes over time 

message: Claudia suggested on my talk page that we put the info re whangai and modern /contemporary data on children in a separate section at the end after Marae, as all the other subsections refer to cultural practice in the 1800s. "The article really needs a major heading such as "Contemporary Maori culture" of something similar(Post WW2 Maori culture"? or "Cultural Renaissance"?)as all that last section is current cultural concepts and practice."  No, I don't think it's useful to separate it out by time in that way.  I think all the sections should be about each cultural practice as it has been and is now.  Some things have fallen by the wayside, some have flourished, eg, Kingitanga, some have a continuous thread.  If I want to know about moko, or haka, or powhiri, I'd rather see the whole picture over time than jump from the 1820s (which is arguably a very atypical period) to the 2000s. It feels artificial and makes for a badly structured article that risks dismissing contemporary Maori culture as a shadow of its former self rather than adapting to its influences like all cultures do. Tirana (talk) 04:37, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul Moon isn't the only one writing on the subject, and this is about culture so anthropology is more pertinent than history and demographics.  Anne Salmond has written in-depth on the subject for years and doesn't have Moon's reputation for contentiousness.  I don't mean that the time element should be ignored altogether, just that it shouldn't dominate the structure.  Tirana (talk 00:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure 

message: I am having a quick run through several sections to remove irrelevant material, as well as editors' personal conclusions. I have also inserted paragraphs, which for the first time makes some of this stuff actually readable. I am not wedded to any of what remains: there needs to be more discussion about what is and is not relevant to a discussion of Maori culture, and particularly the depth of historical material. What stands out immediately is the inadequacy of most of the citations. Editors should use the citation templates provided at Wikipedia:Citation templates in the interest of uniformity and quality. Please note also the discussion of Wikipedia policy at WP:ONUS. Some of the key points are:
*Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed. Whether and how quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article.
*Consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step (this has already been done).
*When tagging or removing material for lacking an inline citation, state your concern that there may not be a published reliable source for the content.
*If you think the material is verifiable, try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it. BlackCab (talk) 06:49, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: Maori took part in the gold mining in many different ways that changed aspects of their culture-this is what this section is about. It changed the way they saw land and their ownership of the land ,it showed that they could profit materially from the land,it showed that the governor was willing to talk with Maori about potential conflicts of interest. It showed they could work with and alongside Europeans in new ways for their own benefit. Maori became very aware of the value and importance of gold. Maori miners got the vote because of their involvement in the industry -this was revolutionary at the time. Rua  Kenana tried to sell his own Maori gold mining licences in the Ureweras to raise money for himself and his movement. Gold mining became as much part of the Maori culture as European culture.  So this section stays .More to be added when I have time.
What you think of the topic is irrelevant. Claudia  	— Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 
:What I — and all other Wikipedia editors — think of the topic is very relevant. The poorly-written and inadequately sourced material you have added barely touches any aspect of "the way they saw land and their ownership of the land". So far it seems to cover some commercial endeavours in which some Maori took part. It has no place in an encyclopedia on Maori culture. BlackCab (talk) 02:35, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  cultural changes in the 19th and 20th century -gold mining 

message: >> Restoring Hope (Lihaas (talk) 18:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: Anyone who knows anything about Tangata Maori knows that whenua is the basis of the culture. The land provided all the resources needed for life. Traditionally the chief's mana was based on the rohe he could hold and how he used its resources.
The section in the article shows how over time Maori became influenced by a range of European practices. Gradually Maori accepted most(but not all) European practices around land. They had to, as the kingites had lost the 1863/64 war which partly centred around land isues. From 1854 a major runanga in Taranaki had agreed to establish an anti British (not my words) "land league". Their first action was to kill other Taranaki Maori who were selling land to the government around New Plymouth. This was really the beginning of the end for the kingites. The government had been content before this to let Maori iwi sort out land issues their own way but they drew the line at widespread murder -especially when the upheaval was taking place on land already sold to settlers.
The data about Maori land sales after 1864 shows the extent to which chiefs and iwi had dropped Maori practice and adopted European ones. The idea of a land league was well and truly gone and it was ex kingites who set the pace.
::Not as presented it didn't. You'd need a secondary source that says it and ties it to Māori culture, whcih is the subject of this article. Stuartyeates (talk) 03:30, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Land is at the heart of Maori culture 

message: The "Treatment of children" section notes: "Set against this are reports by missionaries of infanticide, particularly female infanticide, and involvement of young people in warfare and the sex trade during the 1820s." The statement cites Moon's "A Savage Country" as a source, but on the pages cited, he makes no mention of infanticide. He does talk about child prostitution, which supports that statement, but a better source should be found about infanticide, or it should it be removed. BlackCab (TALK) 05:18, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've flagged that statement as needing a citation (and fixed some other sloppiness while I was at it). Ideally a citation should be from a better source than Paul Moon - his history works receive rather mixed reviews: glowing praise from his publisher and employer, but from independent reviewers comments such as "In choosing the title A Savage Country, Moon is continuing the ‘frequency of fake information’ thesis along a historically loaded line (...) in implying that Māori society was somehow lesser and more barbarous than the Europeans who have civilized the rest of the ‘known world’. " and "Moon’s prejudices have been often noted (...) by other historians" ; and of his other works: "an atrocious example of how not to write history", "Time and again, Moon dips his pen in an inkwell of spite, snide adjectives and vicious asides", "an alarmingly twisted view of the 20th century" and "He prefers gently viewing the "national memory" through his own peculiarly distorted vision" ; and "This is bad history, but not nearly as objectionable as Moon's treatment of Chinese and Pasifika migrants" and "Let us hope for a better, more balanced book by another hand." . Daveosaurus (talk) 06:08, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The first external link above can be seen at landfallreview.com.-gadfium 09:00, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

text: I know I've read something along these lines in a thesis. I shall try and locate said thesis. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

text: I have no objection to Moon as a source, though I'll be guided by NZ editors on wehther it ought to be noted in the article's text that he is the source. Apart from this though, the paragraph needs to be written in a way that very clearly identifies a very reliable source. As it was, it cited Moon as the source of a statement he did not make. BlackCab (TALK) 03:34, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  The general impression I get from independent reviews of Moon's works is that they are useful where he writes on subjects which are not well covered, but otherwise his works are found wanting when compared against works by more authoritative writers such as King or Belich. His works should be cited with caution, and I sincerely doubt that an editor whose work is as sloppy as Claudia's would take the necessary care. Daveosaurus (talk) 09:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

text:  Further to the above, I notice that in today's edits the claim is made that Moon recounts tales of men withdrawing their daughters from schools in the 1820s - before there were any schools in New Zealand. I can't believe that Moon would be so sloppy as to make such a statement, but don't have his book handy at the moment to check, so if anyone else can check, that material needs fixed (or, better still, deleted entirely). Daveosaurus (talk) 06:19, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Moon refers specifically to Maori students snatched by members of their community from "the mission school at Paihia" and taken on board to be exchanged for muskets, powder and oil. BlackCab (TALK) 06:43, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

text: Talk pages are to discuss improvements to articles, not claims of political conspiracy. BlackCab (TALK) 07:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infanticide 

message: Maori in precontact times had no concept of freehold land or of having title to land, nor was land thought of a commodity to be bought and sold. Early Maori, especially in Northland allowed Europeans to acquire what the Europeans saw as "ownership" yet at the same time they were under the thumb of the local chief who could and did extract largesse from the settlers in return for "protection". In many cases the protection was really needed as the settlers arrived during the musket wars -a lawless time of massacre and counter massacre and in theory could be attacked by outsiders as well as disgruntled locals. During this early period much land was sold directly to settlers in exchange for goods rather than money. The Native Land Court records show that most land was sold by hapu (subtribe) which was the normal operating unit for Maori. Very little land was sold by iwi(tribes). In the early period iwi leaders had little or no say in the disposal of hapu land. The example in Whanganui is typical of the wider Taranaki sales -as is the attempt by well meaning missionaries to preempt  sales to the NZ company. 
The missionaries were suspicious of the motives of the land buyers. They had the advantage of speaking fluent Maori and a greater understanding of Maori protocols, plus by 1839, they were well off and generally trusted by Maori. It is clear from my edit that Maori welcomed these land buyers and were keen to sell land . The fact that many of the leaders had never heard of William's "purchase" suggests either it didnt happen or quite possibly the dominant chief sold the land and kept all the goods /money for himself, or ,the Maori were trying to sell the land gain. Williams did say he had purchased the land in trust for the Whanganui. Probably the "in trust " part went over their heads. This reselling of already "sold" land was quite common in Taranaki. Part of the confusion in Taranaki was that many hapu/iwi had left the area to live near Wellington because of the continual threat of invasion from the Waikato. Sometimes a few straggler stayed behind but they could not be said to have mana over the land as they were old, isolated and defenceless. Claudia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 08:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maori land "selling" 

message: Often when we think of culture we immediately think of the technology or material of that culture -which are important. Eg the introduction of new food and tools/equipment by Europeans. Less attention is paid to the less obvious part such as beliefs and attitudes. The edit Ive just reverted shows how in the very early days, Maori were keen land sellers and welcomed land buyers such as the Wakefields with open arms. The Wakefields and NZ company as a whole are portrayed or interpreted,  in many conventional histories,especially recent ones, in mainly negative terms. The edit  also shows that European cultural attitudes were varied -eg Missionaries cf land buying capitalists: ie there was not one consistent attitude that Maori had to deal with. It also  shows many old Maori cultural traits- exploiting a situation for your advantage,possible trickery (which was a very highly regarded Maori cultural skill). Confusion over European concepts: "held in trust" that were probably totally alien to Maori and difficulty with comprehending written documents.
Many of the European v Maori issues boil down to each side holding  a very wide range of cultural attitudes that were foreign to the other. This is hardly surprising given that Maori were still very much a neolithic culture in transition in the period 1800-1890. The British, and especially the English, were from the most advanced culture in the world. It is interesting that often Scots or Irish had a greater understanding of Maori viewpoints than the English because they had some experience of English political power and technology. It is interesting reading the dairies of Maori soldiers(especially officers) returning home from WW1. The thing that stuck most in their minds was not death, or guns,or glory but the incredibly efficient British  machine that delivered hot food, uniforms and medical care to the front lines in an endless stream, for millions of soldiers for 5 years. Claudia
:where is the secondary source the uses thiis example in this way? Stuartyeates (talk) 09:56, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is that using random historical examples is banned WP:SYNTH, unless reliable sources have used this example in a similar way and you cite those sources. Stuartyeates (talk) 02:34, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

text: I am in no way doubting the authority of the sources. I'm doubting the way in which you're using them. Sprinkling selected examples from a history books into an article about culture completely distorts the view of culture. Using any sources prior to the 1970s should be avoided, since the prevailing view of Māori culture and history has changed since then. BTW: the words are spelt Māori and Pākehā. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:58, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  cultural components 

message: Culture is the totality of how a distinct group of people live. It is the ideas,the technology,the customs ,the normal social behaviours of that culture ,especially those that make them different or similar to others. This is not to be confused with what is sometimes called "high culture" -high arts associated with painting, sculpture, classical music,  ballet etc. Culture is not fixed but changes through time-especially when an isolated group is exposed to a new ideas that  are quite different. The Roman invasion of Britain changed the native culture for 400 years. Clearly tobacco use by Maori is part of their culture. Indeed as the figures show it has become deeply ingrained. The information for this comes from Te Ara,The ENCYCLOPEDIA of NZ. Some editors need to stop and think instead of making silly knee jerk reverts. Editors should not revert without an explanation in Talk. Claudia  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 21:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: We've tried repeatedly engaging with you on various talk pages, including your own. Your talk page contains a litany of messages trying to engage with you on the same issues, across dozens of articles. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:45, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

text: Your repeated accusations that other editors have no intelligence, and that you have so much, underline your inability to work collaboratively with others. Your contributions are generally sloppy and you can't be bothered with Wikipedia style or basic courtesies such as signing your posts. Sorry, but you are basically just a pest, creating work for others to tidy up behind you, and for no real benefit to this encyclopedia. BlackCab (TALK) 00:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm with User:BlackCab on this. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Sigh. I guess you're right. It must be everyone else in the world that's the problem. BlackCab (TALK) 09:40, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is culture? 

message: Once again the man from the deep south has made a snap judgement to revert without following the rules of Wiki -despite being warned he has again reverted a well researched and referenced section without any attempt to discuss the matter at all. His brief edit comment is transparently wrong! He simply pushed the delete button ! Seems to suffer anger issues. Has been advised previously not to edit when in a bad mood . Claudia
:Are you referring to this edit? I can't speak to how well researched it was. What I can see is that all of the referneces (which are  all to on-line souces) lack URLs; none of the proper nouns has been wikilinked; all of the examples are from a single POV which borders on racist; no analysis of how Māori grievances were linked resentment about the Treaty of Waitangi issues in general and how contemporary thinking has upheld many of these grievances; etc, etc. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:07, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mischievious reverts 

message: Hi all, just recently stumbled across this article. I'm slightly concerned about the impression the land dealing section gives. From my reading, it makes it sound like land dealings weren't that bad for Maori after all. There's lots of talk of Māori extorting Pakeha, and very little of Pakeha extorting Māori. Hence from my understanding it's not accurate/balanced. Would be interested in knowing what others think. Cheers — Ballofstring (talk) 11:04, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The first three paragraphs provide reasonable coverage of the issue of land sales. I have deleted the last couple of paragraphs, which are of little value. There certainly is more that can be written on the subject, based on reliable sources. BlackCab (TALK) 06:28, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality of land dealings section 

message: "Both the term and the people are a hybrid of various Polynesian cultures." - really? Snori (talk) 00:16, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Have now reverted to some older wording. Snori (talk) 00:25, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Hybrid?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (February 2018) 

message: Is everyone happy with the chronological (not subject by subject) ordering of the page, I feel it leads to repetition. I think this is a byproduct of the merge between Māori cuture and  Ancient Māori culture. I could not find one culture page that is set out like 'Māori culture'. See:Culture of Scotland, Tibetan culture and Native American cultures in the United States, for examples of cultures in historical danger of being assimilated. I am not planning anything major, I just want to get an idea of peoples thoughts so I can help. (Dushan Jugum (talk) 20:36, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of the way it is is because of the edits of a well meaning but ultimately disruptive editor active some years ago, from which the page never recovered totally. I’m sure you are correct and the page can be made much better.  Feel free to make edits or discuss ideas. Andrewgprout (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Just an update on my thoughts, there is very little difference between the 'Māori people' page and the 'Māori culture' page. There is also very little difference between 'Māori people' and 'Māori culture'. To make things better some hard calls will have to be made on what to expand and what to move. I have not been around long enough for this. I will keep working on the small things. (Dushan Jugum (talk) 02:37, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this page make Māori look like a living culture?  

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The section on slavery says: "Generally, only female slaves were kept as they were considered to be less of a threat and more useful as potato-farmers and as partners." It is grossly inappropriate to describe captive women who were raped as "partners".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.247.98.109 (talk) 14:29, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Female slaves should not be described as "partners" 

message: There is quite a lot of crossover between the articles Māori culture and Māori people and Māori history. I am going to slowly do some edits to this article. I will edit for brevity including some uncited statements. I will edit to include more Māori authors and citations. I will edit to support more of a Māori world-view (in my Pākehā understanding) from academic and published references. I am also going to propose a restructure of the arts and entertainment section to support the Māori cultural perspective where art is holistic and intertwined with knowledge systems, including things such as health, food production and shelter. I will use this talk page before any major structural edits. Any thoughts by other editors on the crossover between the Māori culture and Māori people and Māori history articles? Pakoire (talk) 23:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Any guidance / discussion on length and what could be cut? Pakoire (talk) 04:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Currently the article is - Prose: Characters 80,270, Words 12,917, Sections 51 (from xtools). WP:CANYOUREADTHIS suggests 10,000 words takes 30 - 40 mins to read and sections could be moved to other articles. This article is a lot made up of information that is covered more specifically in other articles. I am going to trim for brevity with lots of saves so people can revert or discuss if there are differing onions, and over a week or so to allow response as this is a critical article with lots of traffic. From Wikipedia: Culture is an umbrella term which encompasses the collective social behavior, institutions, and norms found in human societies, which includes the collective knowledge, beliefs, arts, laws, customs, capabilities, and habits of the individuals in these groups. Pakoire (talk) 05:15, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Māori culture and Māori people and Māori history articles  

message: Would 'Other traditional buildings' be better titled 'Architecture' and maybe go under 'Arts' (or be its own heading?)? Pakoire (talk) 10:15, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other traditional buildings / Architecture