Talk:Guru/Archive 5

message: I was just reading the magazine What is enlightenment founded by the American guru Andrew Cohen that is quite pro-guru magazine and the Aug-Oct. 2004 issue nr. 26 contains the following in the section Pulse: news and gossip from an emerging culture page 28. 
:"Want to know just how far the word guru has fallen into disrepute in the spiritual world? The organization of one of the most renowned, controversial, and susccessful Indian gurus of the last century has decided that their late founder ..... is not a guru. Osho, once known as Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh, was the popular seventies spiritual teacher most Americans known for his notorious commune at Oregon, his predilection for Rolls Royces, and his many Western students [..] "Not only is Osho not a guru, his whole approach is to demolish the guru game", reads the official ashram website. [..]Indeed, Osho was a force of personality unlike anything the spiritual world had seen in some time, and love him or hate him he was a guru -fully completely, unabashadley. Pulse has been told that that kind of subversive talk - guru-talk - is off limits..." 
The excerpt is yet another proof that the word guru has acquired a negative connotation in the West. Note that several former prominent editors of the magazine are now critical former followers of Andrew Cohen. Andries 09:53, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: We are in agrement: the word guru has acquired a negative connotation is the West. That is super clear! . But that has nothing to do with our dispute. Read the dispute summary on the Request for mediation page. --Zappaz 15:32, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And please desist from publishing libelous accussations against anybody including gurus in this page. Wikipedia and these pages are not a tabloid to spew uncorroborated allegations made by non-notable individuals.   --Zappaz 15:41, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I won't stop it. Please stop removing the list from the talk page. Gurus are public figures and hence deserve scrutiny. This list of allegations (some of them very well documented or even facts) are important to understand the controversy regarding this article. Andries 17:05, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, you will. This page is not a place to list acussations. Provide links to the articles where these controversies are exploredm if you wish. You can make your point that way . What you are doing is innapropriate it and you bloody well know it. -Zappaz 18:50, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: here is the list that Zappaz tries to censor on this talk page.  User:Andries/guru#Why_gurus_are_controversial_in_the_West Andries 18:52, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot censor anything. This is WP. BTW, that page is now under VfD. --Zappaz 19:01, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Is libel allowed on Talk pages? --goethean 21:03, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

text: Stevertigo: hese allegations are libelous, uncorroborated and dangerous. How can you allow uncorroborated accussations of murder, sexual abuse, pedophilia and alcoholism, remain here? I ask you to re-consider. Thanks. --Zappaz 22:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

text: You also say that the list is properly sourced, but it is not. Many of the allegations stated there are not sourced or attributed. --Zappaz 23:04, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Zappaz, I will try to source the accusations a bit better but that takes some time. Accusations of murder are corroborated by Basava Premanand's book voluminous about SSB Shambles in Sai Baba's bedroom Robert Priddy's book The End of the Dream. Accusation about pedophilia are treated in the respective article about Muktananda and Sathya Sai Baba. Accusation of alcholism are treated in Stephen A. Kent's book (2001) From Slogans to MantrasAndries 23:14, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I just added some needed comments to Andries list, so I can live with it. I still think it is bad practice, but I abide by the decision of the mediator. Thanks. --Zappaz 23:31, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Another argument for the bad reputation of the word ''guru''

message: Is this mediation? I understood that mediation is handled differntly: that the mediator hears each side separately and then mediates to bridge disputes.
Can we move on from the discussion about Andries list and re-focus on the article instead? Thanks. --Zappaz 23:32, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mediation?

message: Even this pro-guru magazine treats the question why so many gurus are involved in scandals. So a neutral encyclopedia should certainly treat this question. (see comment on the right) Andries 18:35, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A quote from a relatively pro-guru magazine (What is enlightenment?)

message: Many Hindu gurus are founders of NRMs in the West. Some Hindu gurus are founders of a NRM in India. What is the basis for this distinction except from Goethean's desire to remove critical comments fromt the guru article? I have not seen scholars making a distinction between them. Andrew Cohen was a disciple of a Hindu guru but a founder of an NRM. The NRMs and Hindu gurus are too intertwined to justify separate articles. Andries 16:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that I am not the only editor who does not want the article on an Eastern religious doctrine dominated by unsympathetic, tangentially-related sociological analysis. --goethean 16:56, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Goethean, give one good reason referring to the NPOV guidelines why sociological analysis should be separated from religious view points. You only created a POV fork which you more or less admitted yourself by using the words "unsympathetic, tangentially-related sociological analysis". Andries 17:20, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: I oppose a distinction between gurus of NRMs and Hindu gurus