Talk:Baháʼí Faith/Archive 3

message: There should be no objection to referring to Mirza Yahya in the article or the emergence of the Baha'i Faith from Islam. However, to make these two points dominate the opening description of the Faith is misleading since the first issue, that of Mirza Yayha, was settled over a century ago and there has not been any group of Azalis in existence since the early part of the 20th century. The comments are not fundamentally wrong in themselves, but their dominant position in the article is misleading. Therefore, I have added them with some minor adjustments, to the section on Covenant, etc. That may not be the perfect place for them, but I intend to rewrite that section shortly to make it more inclusive of these things--I just can't do it this morning.
The second issue, when emphasized in the opening paragraph, makes the Baha'i Faith appear to be primarily a branch of Islam. This is not correct. The independent nature of the Baha'i Faith has been established clearly by numerous sources. That it is not a branch of Islam was determined by two Islamic judicial rulings in Egypt in the 1920's and 1930's. The first was made on 10 May 1925 by the Appellate Court of Beba. 
The verdict in this case states: "The Baha'i Faith is a new religion, entirely independent, with beliefs, principles and laws of its own, which differ from, and are utterly in conflict with, the beliefs, principles and laws of Islam. No Baha'i, therefore, can be regarded as a Muslim or vice-versa, even as no Buddhist, Brahmin, or Christian can be regarded as a Muslim or vice versa."
This ruling was later confirmed by a fatwa of His Honour the Grand Mufti of Egypt on 11 March 1939 where he stated in a letter to the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior that: "We hereby declare that this Community is not to be regarded as Muslim, as shown by the beliefs which it possesses. . . .  Whoever among its members had formerly been a Muslim has, by virtue of his belief in the pretensions of this community, renounced Islam, and is regarded as beyond its pale, and is subject to the laws governing apostasy as established in the right Faith of Islam."
In additon to the above, some of my specific reasoning on particular points is as follows:
1.	". . . heavily based on the Shia branch of Islam" -- This is already mentioned in the section on the Bab where it says: "It is distinct from Islam but grew out of the Islamic matrix in the same way that Christianity grew out of Judaism, or Buddhism out of Hinduism." This is entirely accurate and is a commonly accepted understanding in academic and non-academic non-Baha'i circles. Especially when considered in the light of the ruling of the Grand Mufti of Egypt, this wording would appear to be more accurate than the "heavily based" wording.
2.	The title "Baha'u'llah" was not chosen by Mirza Husayn-Ali in Baghdad, but given to him by the Bab in the course of a number of such titles conferred on his followers around the time of the Conference of Badasht which took place in 1848, I believe. It was around this time that Qurratu'l-Ayn was named Tahirih and, I believe, that Mulla Ali Barfurushi was named Quddus. The Bab confirmed the titles by addressing each of the recipients by that title in subsequent letters to them.
3. The issue of who challenged who's leadership in the case of Baha'u'llah and Mirza Yahya is an issue that can only be rendered NPOV by Wikipedia standards by avoiding a judgement in either direction. Therefore, I have changed "Bahá'u'lláh challenged the leadership of the Bábí leader" to a more neutral "split occurred between" them.
4. The term "Bahaism" in describing the Baha'i Faith raises similar objections from Baha'is as the use of the term "Mohammedanism" to describe Islam raises from Muslims. It is normally used, as is "Mohammedanism", by people who are not believers in the religion to describe it, and therefore it conveys a certain attitude towards the faith that is sometimes not acceptable to believers. Because of this, Baha'is would not consent to allow Islam to be called "Mohammedanism", and the use of the term "The Baha'i Faith" can, I think, be expected to receive similar respect from non-Baha'is in a forum such as Wikipedia.
I hope this solution is agreeable to everyone.
--Jmenon 14:44, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A solution to the last subject 

message: If anyone thinks this article has POV problems, then please point *exactly* where they are, and what possible solutions you think there may be.
things to remeber:
*This is a encyclopedic article , it´s NOT a pro-bahai article and it´s NOT a anti-bahai article.
*the information on the article should be organized and in the proper context.
things NOT to do:
*vague/empty acusations of non-NPOV with no evidence being point out.
*ignoring constructive replies and keep arguing with the same thing.
*revert/war editing when discussion/consensus is being asked on the talk page.
*flamming
things to do:
*be constructive! the talk page is for improving the article not for pointless non-constructive criticism.
(anyone is welcomed to edit and improve to what i said above)
also: a Bahá'í Faith/temp could be created for testing/improving the current article.
my sugestions.... - --Cyprus2k1 19:03, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  solutions 

message: Looking above, I can't manage to decipher any coherent reason why the pictures should be removed. Some say they're advertising or promotion - but the fact remains that a picture under a free license should always be used in place of a fair use one; also, it says "artist's rendering." Please tell me why these should not be displayed. — Dan | Talk 02:10, 7 Feb 2005 
The pictures now present are not those discussed above. One was replaced like with like (artists rendereing temple Delhi, replced by a real photograph of the same) or left out as they were a doublette (two pictures showed the shrine of the Bab, now only one and the Kitab-i Aqdas was added instead)Refdoc 08:05, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of pictures 

message: The Baha'i Faith article is currently 38Kb and should be shortened. Amir1 keeps adding detailed biographical information without reference to the Baha'i Faith; that is the first paragraph that should go, which I have done. People wishing to add such paragraphs concerning Baha'u'llah, should do so in the relative article on Baha'u'llah. But ensure that appropriate scholarly references are provided; Wikipedia suffers from undocumented entries and fixing that problem should be a priority for all contributors.  --Occamy 12:20, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Excessive Length