Talk:Milton Babbitt

message: A banner has been placed on this article, stating "This article's citation style may be unclear. The references used may be made clearer with a different or consistent style of citation, footnoting, or external linking". The current citation style is Chicago Manual of Style, author-date, parenthetical citation format. This is one of a large number of citation styles recommended at Wikipedia:Citing_sources#How_to_present_citations. This style is consistently used throughout this article, and footnotes are not used, so these two possibilities are not at issue. There are two external links embedded in the article itself, one in the list of Babbitt's writings, and one in the References list (apart from the External links section, of course). Is the recommendation to do with these external links, or with the style of citation? Please explain.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't make these tags up, they have a purpose. I do however, draw a very distinct difference between citations and inline external links. The article in my opinion, is currently a bit of an eyesore... probably not due to its major contributors, but because it's littered with CN-tags from readers who rightfully seem to be challenging an awful lot of content here. If the references listed are indeed valid, there's really no reason why they cannot be converted to inline citations to replace some of these CN-tags and give the readers what they want and deserve. My tag is not a badge of shame, it's a request for someone who truly respects the article to address obvious citation issues that existed before I discovered the article myself. Would you rather see it cleaned up, or argue in favour of unsightliness?  -- WikHead (talk) 03:47, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps it seems ridiculous to have many tags in an article to indicate only two errors. Hyacinth (talk) 04:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

text: This could easily have been resolved, had you replaced my original  tag with  in the beginning.  however, is not misleading when no inline citations exist, but have been requested. This tagging assumes that the requested information already existed within the reference list, as the challenged content should never have existed as prose otherwise. (i.e. We write from source material, rather than writing first and looking for supporting references later.) It's obvious that we are both here for the betterment of the project... so please feel free to drop me a note sometime if there's ever anything we can work together on.  -- WikHead (talk) 05:49, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Well I'll trust that you'll eventually address those two inline external links, and perhaps gracefully trim back some of the dated-unsourced, if not today, whenever it's convenient. I'm sure it would go a long way with helping the article present itself in a cleaner manner. I'm pleased that we have both been able to understand the other's viewpoint and reasoning, and have been able to reach a well balanced discussion outcome. With that said, it looks like my work here is done... so I guess it's time to remove this one from my watchlist. Have yourself a great day, and happy editing :)  -- WikHead (talk) 06:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

text: Yes, CN-tags which date back to May and March 2009. Technically, someone "could" strip all that content away as dated-unsourced.  -- WikHead (talk) 05:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation style

message: Per WikHead's comment above: "the article...[is] littered with CN-tags". Hyacinth (talk) 04:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, CN-tags which date back to May and March 2009. Technically, someone "could" strip all that content away as dated-unsourced.  -- WikHead (talk) 05:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional citations

message: It appears (estimating very roughly) that lists make up about four fifths of this article. Notice that the New York Times on-line obituary is a full two cyber-space pages (each requires scrolling) and yet only a handfull of his compositions is named and only a couple of students. This is the professional model to follow. 
I'm leaving the list of compositions alone for now, but I'm going take out the entire list of students and incorporate a few of the significant names (like Sondheim) into the text of the article itself. If you want to add more, feel free, just so long as you provide a full justification here for EACH individual student you add. If you want really to contribute to the article, though, add actual text. Thanks. TheScotch (talk) 06:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: A key part of Babbitt's legacy, like that of Roger Sessions, is that an unusually large number of his students were themselves of great consequence. I'm not going to restore the list, but it's arguably appropriate.38.105.214.33 (talk) 16:38, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am siding with TheScotch on this one, though I agree with the point about the unusually large number of students being of great consequence. The advantage to presenting such names in the text is that it offers the opportunity to explain just why these former students became important, instead of relying on the reader already to know. Wikipedia guidelines discourage lists, for this reason amongst others.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Endless, mindless Wikipedia lists 

message: The current New Grove article by Elaine Barkin/Martin Brody lists his birthplace as Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, not Philadelphia, Mississippi.  Is there any evidence that this edit is actually correct? Antandrus  (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Place of birth

message: Shouldn't this work have its own page.  As I understand it premiered at the Brandeis Jazz Festival, New York June 18 1957 - with Bill Evans on piano.  See http://musicmavericks.publicradio.org/features/interview_babbitt.html Hstokar (talk) 19:52, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Such a good idea! I have implemented this already, though there is still work to be done. Cheers!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:15, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Add ALL SET link?

message: Can we make a stub on pianist Robert Miller?  Very important to Babbitt and other composers in the 60's.  Here is his obituary in the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/01/obituaries/robert-miller-pianist-lawyer.htmlHstokar (talk) 21:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that much shouldn't be too much to ask. As informative as it is, I would like to have just a little bit more than that obituary to work with, though. Let me see what I can find.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:16, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It has been started, though the discography has got a long way to go yet.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:44, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Robert Miller

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Milton Babbitt. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Milton Babbitt. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110721193042/http://avantgardeproject.conus.info/mirror/agp72/index.htm to http://avantgardeproject.conus.info/mirror/agp72/index.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110713080741/http://www.jamesromig.com/TEXT.html to http://www.jamesromig.com/TEXT.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Information on recordings in this article is very poor. Some works have been not been recorded at all, such as Concerti for Violin and Tape, while others have only surfaced very recently. There's Relata II that Babbitt struggled immensely and (thanks to power-hungry unions) failed to get recorded, presented to you for the first time in January 2020 by Erik Carlson!! And Conor Hanick's recent recording of the Piano Concerto No. 2.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.76.41.102 (talk) 23:01, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to contribute to this article. That is what Wikipedia is all about. If you are unsure about formatting for the discography, just go ahead and do your best. Someone else will come along and tidy things up if anything doesn't quite conform. The important thing is to get the data into the article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:21, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: It appears that the discography was started in May 2011 by User:Hstokar and supplemented immediately afterward by myself. I recognize everything in the list as being in my collection. That was nine years ago, and it certainly could do with some updating.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:27, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Relata II and unrecorded works