Talk:South African Airways Flight 295

message: the helderberg-crash was investigated by the TRC! http://www.doj.gov.za/trc/trc_frameset.htm --Severino (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: December 2007

message: In the the "Conspiracy theories" section, there is the paragraph
which is cited to a WorldNetDaily article. Now, the WND article is of course a reliable source for what WND itself postulated. But consensus appears to be that WND is not a reliable source for factual material, so we need another source for the information about the receipt. We should also consider whether WND's "postulations" are notable enough to be included in the article. - htonl (talk) 01:51, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: These comments are all spot on.  The only problem is that there was a conspiracy theory, albeit a dodgy one, about Basson's links with the flight, so there are other sources that concur with the current one.(e.g. Sunday Independent, Scorpions, iol)  Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:35, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I don't think we should remove the information; just that we should source it better. I've reworded that point to remove the 
reference to WND. - htonl (talk) 12:14, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need a better cite than WorldNetDaily 

message: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pandarine (talk • contribs) 06:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source or conspiracy 

message: 1.The National Security Agency of the United States of America has a complete record of the conversations on the Helderberg and these were never given to the Margo Commission of inquiry.
2. The wife of Captain Uys was paid an uttermost fortune in compensation to keep for years her mouth shut.
3. At least one cabinet member of the then South African Apartheid Regime (version 1 Pik Botha version 2 Magnus Malan version 3 both) was at Jan Smuts Airport at Air Trafic Control during the disaster
4. If the former members of the Apartheid Regime will be summoned before an Independant United Nations Tribunaral they will all be collectively fouund guilty of murder in the first degree. This is because 2 fighter jets took off from Hoedspruit Air Force Base and being refuelled in mid air by a fuel tanker from waterkloof air force base to refuel them in mid air to extend their range with direct orders to shoot the Helderberg down to prevent an international outcry about the international smuggling of weapons grade plutonium international code name red mercury on board.
5. The first question by an Independent United Nations Enquiry shall be addressed to Roedolf Frederick ("Pik") Botha : Diego Garcia as a landing site was available by making one phone call to the American Ambassador to South Africa and this option logical was not followed. Why not ?
6. Al thought the subsequent inquiry by Mr. Otzen came close to the truth , this essential facts was never revealed to him.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.120.193.65 (talk) 16:28, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Red mercury doesn't exist and in 1986 there were no interceptors capable of aerial refuelling stationed at AFB Hoedspruit, only ground-attack F1AZs and Mirage IIIs without refuelling probes. This paragraph doesn't add anything to the discussion. Darren Olivier (talk) 18:55, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  INTELLIGENCE BRIEFING GIVEN ON FLIGHT 295 HELDERBERG TO TOP RSA POLITICAL LEADERS BY TOP INTERNATIONAL AGENCIES THAT ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM OFFICIAL VERSION 

message: I've just read an article by Mark D Young suggesting the fire was caused by the failure of the Kapton insulation used in the aircraft's wiring looms.  Apparently it fails after a few years use, leading to electrical fires caused by short-circuits; this was not known at the time of the crash but has happened on other aircraft since then.  In this case, it is likely that the thermal insulation used in this aircraft was then set on fire, producing a large volume of toxic smoke.  Neither material is used in aircraft now, but at the time they were thought to be safe.  The article looks credible tome, but as I don't really know anything about the subject I'll leave it to others to decide whether to edit the article accordingly.  URL:  http://www.politicsweb.co.za/news-and-analysis/the-helderberg-disaster-was-this-the-cause-of-the-
146.200.172.133 (talk) 00:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: All evidence seems to point to an electrical fire being the primary cause... I wonder how much influence Boeing exerted to get the investgation shifted to blaiming the cargo instead ? Rcbutcher (talk) 05:35, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New evidence: Kapton insulation failure led to the fire 

message: several newspaper sources from the time indicate 1 American passenger, (William G. Murless) sources:
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/30/world/five-bodies-found-after-jet-crash.html
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1987/Four-More-Bodies-Found-At-Indian-Ocean-Crash-Site/id-68e07643f91b2db0b8e224961cfa9c77
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=117519913
Jacob805 00:08, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In that case, we would have to remove one person from the passenger list (after we find out more info) and add said American passenger, because the official death toll is 159, not 160. I'm not a racist or anything, just saying. Tigerdude9 (talk) 13:46, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  American passenger 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on South African Airways Flight 295. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.gov.za/reports/2000/helderberg.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 15:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on South African Airways Flight 295. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140328112021/http://www.l-3ar.com/html/history.html to http://www.l-3ar.com/html/history.html
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/nie/note/chu/14/kiji08.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/accidents%20%26%20incid/reports/OldReports/Final%20Report%20ZS-SAS.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:15, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on South African Airways Flight 295. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120913205243/http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/transport/Cert_Update/Edition01-10/media/Edition08.pdf to http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/transport/Cert_Update/Edition01-10/media/Edition08.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130225223803/http://accidents-ll.faa.gov/ll_main.cfm?TabID=3&CategoryID=18&LLID=33 to http://accidents-ll.faa.gov/ll_main.cfm?TabID=3&CategoryID=18&LLID=33
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110809181117/http://www.transport.gov.za/library/docs/helderberg/report0521.html to http://www.transport.gov.za/library/docs/helderberg/report0521.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: I was thinking of adding this bullet list to the "Margo Commission" section to clarify it more:
Overall the Margo Commission confirmed the following:
* An in-flight fire occurred
* The crew was incapacitated by smoke
* The aircraft broke-up in mid flight
Also, I read the communications with ATC, there actually is evidence that this checklist was followed and/or the doors were opened.
What do you think? Anything I should add/remove from my list? Should I add the list at all?  Please give me your thoughts! Thank you!Tigerdude9 (talk) 20:16, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the only thing confirmed beyond doubt by the Margo Commission was your first point, i.e. "An in-flight fire occurred". It appears that the crew being incapacitated by smoke was just one of the "possible scenarios", and it's probably not safe to include "aircraft broke-up in mid flight" because the manufacturer is quoted in the report as having "contested" this scenario. So really the only thing that's certain is the first point about the in-flight fire. It looks to me as if the report was rather inconclusive apart from that and maybe the text is better left as it is now as there's not enough concrete information to include in a list. BTW I've done a bit of copyediting whilst reading through the section. Hope you don't mind. Rodney Baggins (talk) 13:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mind at all! However I read the MC's report. The aircraft DID break apart in mid-air. While contested, the commission still listed the two theories, which were the crew becoming incapacitated and the in-flight break up. You can tell if an aircraft broke up in mid air by looking at its wreckage pattern. Wreckage spread out = the aircraft broke-up in mid air. Wreckage not spread out = the aircraft stayed intact until impact. The wreckage pattern of SAA Flight 295 matched the first one, so yeah, the aircraft DID break apart in mid-air (basically). Not trying to prove you wrong or anything, just saying. I recommend you read the Margo Commission's report as well.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigerdude9 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Margo Commission and procedure checklist 

message: The connection between these two people aren't made clear in this article. I understand the use of the name Rennie von Zyl because that's what he was called in the Mayday episode, but are these two really different people? My understanding is that they are the same, as they were both 'leaders' of the investigation. 37KZ (talk) 13:08, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rennie von Zyl and Cecil Margo 

message: The above is introduced without explanation. What's the background please? Zin92 (talk) 07:47, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the missing Jan Smuts air traffic control tapes" 

message: The accident section describes a navigational/reporting waypoint of ADMARK.  This is a typo, possibly copied faithfully from other sources.  The correct spelling of the point is ADMAK.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.166.36 (talk) 15:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction of ADMARK to ADMAK 

message: The article states 80 circuit breakers failed, I don't think they failed, I think the correct word is popped or tripped or did they in fact fail to trip? Avi8tor (talk) 13:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circuit Breakers 

message: The Truth and Reconciliation commission is an official government body. To treat their report as less valid than the Afrikkaner Apartheid report is pure revisionism and apartheid apologetics. The very definition of a conspiracy theory is a theory that is rejected by all government bodies, but the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is a GOVERRNMENT BODY and hence their statements denoting that ammonium perchlorate was the cause of the fire cannot be considered a conspiracy theory. Agree with it or disagree with it, what the commission says is what the commission said, and when the commission says that a theory is plausible and that they are unwilling to rule it out, then it's no longer a conspiracy theory. There are other aviation fires of unclear or disputed cause where the official government reports note that they are not certain of the specific cause but propose several possible causes, and those said causes listed in said government reports are not designated as "conspiracy theories", as seen in how the article about Air Canada 797 does not call and of the National Transportation Safety Board official hypothesises "conspiracy theories" just because they admit that they will never be 100% sure about the exact cause due to the fire burning away key evidence. The TaRC report on SAA is no more or less conspiracy theoristing than the NTSB report on Air Canada 797. Furthermore the way that the article about Margo himself is full of blatant puffery or WP:PROMO content, showing a clear bias to the white SA worldview that permeates this subject's coverage in Wikipedia. I highly suggest that everyone read the Truth and Reconciliation Commission coverage on the crash before making any edits to the article.
https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/finalreport/volume2/volume2.pdf
" Nothing in the cargo inventory could have resulted in a "self- promoted" fire. However, the original cargo manifests were not part of the record of the Margo Commission, and it is uncertain whether those in the possession of the Commission are authentic. There is therefore no reliable list of what cargo was being transported by the Helderberg when it crashed."
As official government reports these documents cannot be written off as conspiracy theories.--SAAhistory (talk) 15:13, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Truth and Reconciliation commission is not conspiracy theorists. Afrikaner propaganda must not be promoted here