Talk:Glossary of Japanese words of Portuguese origin

message: Under well-established convention, this page should be named "List of Japanese words of Portuguese origin". 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=List+of+English+words+of&fulltext=Search
--Paul Richter 15:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comment. The reason for changing the name back to the original one should show up in the history of the page, but in case it doesn't, the reason that I changed the name back is because I hope to expand this page into more than just a list. The renaming was extremely hasty - it happened only a few minutes after the page was created. Pages under development should not be recategorized as lists as soon as they are created. Please give this page a chance to grow before doing that kind of thing. --DannyWilde 03:15, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Having said that, I have just checked the history and I can't actually find my own comment about the move (I'm sure it's there somewhere), so excuse me for saying that, perhaps my reasons were not clear. However, let me add that I'm not against renaming in line with conventions. For example "Japanese words of Portuguese origin" or something would be OK with me. I mostly objected to "List of ...", and I renamed it back to the old name just out of laziness, in that it meant less fiddling with redirects. As I said, I want to expand it into a proper article about the words, rather than have a list. Thanks for tolerating this less than perfect article for the time being. --DannyWilde 03:32, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming

message: The information listed here is full of errors.  Some of the "kanji" listed in the table are, obviously, not kanji at all, but katakana transliterations.  Some of the kanji used for these words are not ateji as claimed here, but are in fact of Chinese origin retro-applied to these words.  For one, the kanji for miira/mirra/mummy, 木乃伊, was used in ancient Chinese documents well before the Portuguese' landing in Japan.  The Chinese usage was a transliteration based on a Persian language, if I remember correctly.  Similarly, pan/麺麭, tabacco/煙草, saboten/仙人掌, all existed in Chinese prior to their usage in Japan, and are in anyway not suitable for use as ateji due to their pronunciation.
:Considering the information is "full of errors", your edits are remarkably pathetic attempt to fix the situation. The only actual errors you've pointed out are two small ones: first, the use of the word "ateji" to describe the use of kanji which were added to the words after they had been adopted, and second, the name "kanji" in the column. Why do you make such a wild statement like the information is "full of errors" without attempting to justify it or correct the supposed multiple errors which you have not demonstrated to exist? --Erasmus Quasar 06:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, once I remove the use of "ateji" and "kanji", I've eliminated the errors I described.  As I pointed out, the article was full of errors precisely because it suggested that all the Japanese listed were kanji, which they were not, and all the kanji listed as ateji, which they were not.  Yes, I could have gone in a removed all the errors, but I thought that those information (the non-kanji katakana and the non-ateji kanji) were valuable and removing them simply because they were erroneously labeled would be a shame, so I simply remove the erroneous labels.  Is that satisfactory? Uly 21:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  kanji and ateji 

message: There must be a better word than 'things', surely. I would be bold and replace it myself... but I realised I can't think of one. I was going to replace it with 'inventions', but it's a pretty specific word and I'm not sure enough that it fits in the article to put it in there. --Last Malthusian 04:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Introduced Christian ideas and things"

message: My contribution to the "Arigato" section of this article was recently reverted by user Oda Mari. This contribution was made in good faith, however Oda Mari incorrectly identified it as vandalism and reverted it. Please see the Wikipedia article on Wikipedia Vandalism, specifically the section "What is not Vandalism". It will be obvious to anyone who reads this section that my contribution was not vandalism.
Oda Mari also did not site any sources as her basis for reverting it, and in fact deleted the reliable source I provided to substantiate my contribution. If after 3 days no valid reason is provided to discredit the source I provided, I will restore my contribution. If it turns into an edit war, the matter will be brought to the attention of the administrators.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.113.82.47 (talk) 07:51, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I couldn't  see the ref. you added. But it is obviously an author made a mistake. Not everything in a book is correct. Your addition was a widely spread misinformation. See this and its linked pages. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 16:07, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

text: Then why don't Japanese dictionaries say the origin is Portuguese?  and .  Are there any ref. pages or books supporting the ref. you provide? How can you say there is no mistakes in the book? Just because the publisher is an established one? Oda Mari (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about Arigato/Obrigado (Thank you)? 

message: Is it necessary to point that out on every word that happens to sound the same in Spanish? The article mentions Portuguese Jesuit influence in Japan, but no Spanish presence in Japan is mentioned. So, why the Spanish reference in the list? Just because of the similarity? -- LodeRunner 00:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "May have come from Spanish" 

message: I have a printed Japanese dictionary that states that アルコール is actually a borrowing from Dutch (三省堂現代新国語辞典). Somebody might want to edit that. Kcumming 20:35, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alcohol 

message: What is the point of having separate columns for "pre-modern Portuguese" and "modern Portuguese"? The article on Japanese words of Dutch origin doesn't have a column for "pre-modern" Dutch. Nor are the differences between "pre-modern Portuguese" and "modern Portuguese" that great, in most cases. FilipeS 15:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm just a reader in here, but here's my say: The two columns should stay, even though there's only a noticeable difference in some of the words. As a native speaker of brazilian portuguese, I wouldn't have a clue of what some of the words in old portuguese would mean, and some of them just look too different from their modern counterpart-- when they have one. So, let them stay. About the "obrigado" discussion, I'd only want to add that, at least down here, obrigado and arigato sound different from each other, thus, I kinda doubt that the origin is the same. Obrigado, in our portuguese, sounds like "oh-bree-GAH-dow", while arigato, if my short knowledge about this is true, is pronunced "ah-ree-gah-TOH"... (people who know to do the IPA thing would be helpful right now)200.98.120.2 04:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure. "Charamela", "jaque", "jibão", and I guess that's it. And there are also the pre-modern portuguese words that quite didn't make it to our times, specially in my case, since I'm from Brazil as I said before, and the metropolitan and colonial versions of portuguese can be very different and tricky sometimes. And OF COURSE there's a discussion about this "obrigado" thing-- look some lines above XD. Abraços, Confusing Text 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling

message: I think using Portugese words for referring to things vernacular to Portugal or Brazil is natural and even inevitable.
And if so, do these words have to be in the list? 221.113.47.7 (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand what you're saying. FilipeS (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for replying. I'm afraid my English expression is bad, anyway... I mean, in other point of view, if these words are in the list, then why samba (samba), bosanoba (bossa nova), fado (fado), feijoāda (feijoada), bakaryau (bacalhau), madeira-shu (vinho da Madeira), etc. etc. are not?  Ka-kupaci (smells-good) (talk) 02:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the three modern words you pointed out, Ka-kupaci. They don't belong here. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 05:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for quick helping :-) Ka-kupaci (smells-good) (talk) 07:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  About 'pandoro', 'shōro' and 'shurasuko' in the list 

message: Kamishimo - a type of Japonese shirt from Portuguese Camisa?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.8.34 (talk) 22:50, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kamishimo? 

message: Can someone please confirm "kyarameru"? The form with ky- normally indicates it originates from an English style /æ/, doesn't it, suggesting the form cited is from English "caramel".  —Felix the Cassowary 21:59, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It is also called karameru/カラメル and is said the origin is a Portuguese word caramelo. See  and its translation. Today kyarameru only means caramel candy and karameru means caramel sauce. Oda Mari (talk) 04:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kyarameru 

message: "塗炭" is not the ateji of "トタン". The word 塗炭 has existed long before the introduction of "tutanaga" and has a completely different meaning—misery, distress, or suffering. "トタン" does not have a written form in Kanji. 
Geoalchimista (talk) 09:57, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totan 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Re: edit note by User:Eirikr in  edit 19:03, 20 January 2021:
Ah, I avoided touching etymology of トタン and カルメ焼き because I knew it will become a long quest :-)
Q (Eirikr): should we remove トタン altogether?
: A (Wotheina): We shall keep it regardless of its origin, because if we remove it, someone will pop up and add it again. Problem is, the current format is not friendly for entries with plural theories. Well, I'll try.
Q (Eirikr): The phonetics for PR /tutanaga/ → JA /totan/ always struck me as odd.
: A (Wotheina): I don't know much about linguistics nor classics, but as a native speaker of modern Japanese, it appears plausible. Many Japanese dialects (including modern standard Japanese) have no , so they have to approximate it by either ト,ツ,トゥ, and the latter two smells like later fashion. /ga/ is homonymous to particle「が」, thus could get omitted due to rebracketing. Well, just my feelings.
Now, if it was zinc made in India and China, and if both Portuguese and Chinese merchants came on the same ship and sold it by similar names of Indic origin, what would such language be called? :-) "Far East lingua franca"? Wotheina (talk) 17:40, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totan (2) 

message: @Mikeloco14 —
The ones with crosses that are obsolete and not in use anymore do not mention what is the word currently in use for them. Mikeloco14 (talk) 17:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather than tediously restructuring the whole table to add a column for just those few terms with the † marker, I instead added a comment just now in the Notes column.  HTH!  😄  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add current Japanese word column