Talk:Assassination of Juvénal Habyarimana and Cyprien Ntaryamira

message: Does anyone know of any sources which named the specific type of missile used? When it happened I assumed it was a shoulder launched variety like the SA-16, Mistral or Stinger. The article says the missile came from 19 km away, it couldn't have been a shoulder launched SAM (unless the plane flew toward the Nyarugunga Valley). Their ranges are typically 5-7 km maximum. 
If a larger missile like a SA-8 or HAWK was used, it could show military participation. Shoulder launched missiles can be found on the black market (though not very easily). Missiles that are towed or launched from an armored vehicle are even harder to come by and require a lot more training to use. Anynobody 02:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the article states one eyewitness report.  The first map in Linda Melvern's Conspiracy to Murder is a map showing all the locations from which witnesses claim they saw the missiles take off.  They include Gasogi Hill, Nyandungu Valley, Rusororo Hill and Masaka Hill, which cover about a 90 degrees arc behind the aircraft, while Gasogi and Masaka Hills are about 6 km from each other.  Looking at this map, the farthest of these is 6 km away from the point at which the aircraft was hit.  There is thus a possible discrepancy between Melvern's map and the eyewitness she quotes, or she may have included it just to show how varied the eyewitness accounts are.  I'm considering removing the eyewitness account as it may weight one location too heavily in the narrative.  A copy of the map would of course be best, but I'm horrible at graphics. Every account I've read that has bothered to specify the SAM states that they were shoulder-fired, but I'm not sure if that is unproven common wisdom or if there is a French language report somewhere that details some forensic evidence, which I haven't stumbled across yet.  - BanyanTree 03:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missile or location?

message: User:Olegwiki added the following paragraph as part of his recent addition, with the ref put in parens:
Furthermore, the French accusations were not the only ones, and parties not involved in the 1994 events have supported the French accusations. In summer 2003, Carla del Ponte, then the Chief Prosecutor for the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR), publicly announced that she would soon begin prosecuting members of Kagame’s Government for the same kinds of crimes charged by Judge Bruguière. However, under U.S. and U.K. pressure, she was replaced soon thereafter as ICTR prosecutor by Abubacar Jallow who pledged not to prosecute Kagame or anyone on his side, no matter what the processes initiated by del Ponte and Bruguière yielded.(Peter Erlinder, The Great Rwanda "Genocide Coverup", Centre for Research on Globalization at http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8137)
The Centre for Research on Globalization source states, 
In the summer of 2003, Chief Prosecutor for the United Nations International Criminal Tribunals for Rwanda (ICTR), Carla del Ponte, publicly announced that she would soon begin prosecuting   members of Kagame’s Government for the same kinds of crimes charged in the French and   Spanish warrants.   But, nearly 5 years later not one case has been filed against one member of Kagame’s government, nor against Kagame himself.The del Ponte announced prosecutions did not go forward because she was replaced, within 90-days of her announcement, by Abubacar Jallow, a US/UK-approved Prosecutor who pledged not to prosecute on Kagame’s side….no matter what the del Ponte and the European judges’ findings!"
I tend to be wary of any source that uses exclamation marks, and its crediblity is not helped by the fact that the article on the Centre was deleted for being a blog with no actual "Centre". (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Centre for Research on Globalization)  So I looked around for another source and found the Case Western Reserve University School of Law war crimes portal (), which states, "Yet, although it may well have been true that Del Ponte was stretched too thin, what appears to have finally brought matters to a head was that Del Ponte had been attempting to indict Tutsis for the massacre of as many as 50,000 Hutus inside Rwanda committed by RPF forces during and immediately after the genocide."  This is a reference to the events described in the Gersony Report, which does not include the assassination of the two presidents.  In other words, the del Ponte issue has absolutely nothing to do with this article and is from a source with zero credibility anyway.  I have removed it and expect a case to be made before it is reinserted. - BanyanTree 14:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  del Ponte