Talk:Irish Americans/Archive 1

message: I have requested that this page be protected to deal with the constant reverting between Lapsed Pacifist and 64.109.253.204. Deltabeignet 18:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert war 

message: "More than 5% of all Americans are Irish Protestant, and a little less than 5% of all Americans are Irish Catholic.": says Andrew Greeley, the leading expert. (Encyclopedia of the Irish in America p1). Greeley is a famous sociologist and expert demographer (as well as being a priest and novelist.)
I have added a comprehensive scholarly bibliography. Rjensen 02:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: How many Irish Catholics/Protestant?

message: A serious article needs  a serious bibliography, which I have provided.  The scholars themselves write on either the Catholics or the Protestants and so it should be divided that way for the convenience of the Wiki users. Rjensen 21:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bibliography 

message: The second paragraph, that hass been re-added, needs to be cited by a legt source within the next couple of days else it be reomoved. It has to be one of the worst POV i have yet to see, becides that i seriously doubt that any legit sociologist or irish history scholar would make such broad and subjective statements. Whiter then white, was is that supposed to mean, "discrimination and prejudice they encountered" yes their were portions of this ethnic group that did endure that that can not be said for all of them, espically in a way to say that they are denial of it, once agin, was is that supposed to mean. Basically in other words the paragraph is tripe. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 06:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discrimination and Prejudice 

message: This might start a revert war...but I changed "Scots-Irish" to "Scotch-Irish".  In the United States (which this article is about), the latter term is more commonly used, including by people of "Scotch-Irish" descent themselves.  Even a Google search gives 6,100,000 hits for "Scotch Irish" and only 382,000 hits for "Scots Irish".--JW1805 (Talk) 22:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both, really.  Yes, there were the plantations, but there was also a huge amount of migrant workers moving back and forth between Ulster and Scotland, even up to the mid 20th century. Bastun 22:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scotch-Irish or Scots-Irish 

message: This section is getting a bit long and breaks up the page to much.  Might be about the time where it gets cut out, turned into it's own page and what's on this page is a mention of Irish neighborhoods in the States, how they came to be with a link to the new page.  Interested to hear thoughts.--Looper5920 05:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: excellent idea. It would then be possible to have historical material on those communities as well as suggested readings & photos. Rjensen 05:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think "major" needs to be in the title though.  Irish-American communities should be sufficient--Looper5920 06:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Irish American communities break out

message: I tagged the NINA section as being pov, thoigh it is more bised then POV. It is slanted towards the pov of of one usere, though that while he has written a research paper on, he basiclay uses it as noting more then a spring board disprove the idea and direct users to his research on the subject. The user has slo constantly reverted changes to his wording that would possibly de-pov the current stsement, including the remove of a pov tag that i placed, in perferencr of his pov/promotion of his research paper. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 06:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: User rjensen (me!) cites a paper that was published in a scholarly journal after being reviewed by over a dozen scholars (most of them Irish.  The paper is online and should be read.  Two original sources (illustrations) are included.  The statement discusses what happened 150 years ago and presents no POV one way or the other. Rjensen 07:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I do, it's a call to tone down the promotion of your research in this article. And expect that every time you remove the tag, as long as the section continues to be biased, it will just be reincerted. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 08:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: Someone has complained that I cited my own scholarly article in the Journal of Social History--it is a well-known peer reviewed journal. The article was reviewed by about 20 specialists in ethnic and Irish-American history.  Citing it follows the Wiki Guidelines:
 If you have an idea that you think should become part of the corpus of knowledge that is Wikipedia, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal or reputable news outlet, and then document your work in an appropriately non-partisan manner.  The article is online and has links to many original sources dealing with 19th century Irish American history.. I hope people find it useful. If they find it provocative--well, the Irish have long been known for being provocative. [Incidentally: I am not Irish but I attended Irish Catholic schools, and married into an Irish Catholic family.] Rjensen 06:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The section does explain the social condition of the Irish-- there are other articles on the Know Nothings, Orange, APA, ant-RC, etc that explore their opponents.   Are the Irish controversial? well yes indeed they are. That's not a good reason for deleting the whole article. Rjensen 23:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited the article so that your research was mentioned. However, there is no good reason to give undue weight to your personal research unless you are of some particular prominence. -- Xombie 23:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the article in question is the most thorough coverage of the topic. It has not been called into question in the history journals. How much prominence would you like? (try this: for 10 years I have been coeditor of H-ETHNIC, the main discussion group among 1500 scholars for the study of ethnicity and immigration.  See http://www.h-net.org/~ethnic/ Rjensen 23:51, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't matter if it is thorough. You do not get carte blanche to write whatever you want just because you wrote somewhere else about it. Read the section of NPOV rules on "Undue weight". Your study does not have enough prominence to be granted such a large section of the article. When a subject is controversial, the views must be proportionally represented. Not to mention the NPOV problems of referencing one's self. -- Xombie 00:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Xombie says there are other views that ought to be represented. OK, he can add them--that's a better idea than removing scholarship he dislikes. Be sure to have high quality scholarly sources. Rjensen 00:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If your edits do not conform to NPOV, they will be recognized as such and edited. -- Xombie 03:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solid Research or flippant self promotion? 

message: We have exit polls for Irish Catholic voters in Presidential elections, in large states. See George Martin, The American Catholic Voter (2004) for data.  For example in 1980 Reagan (who won 51% of the national vote) won 53% among Irish-Catholics in New York state, 64% in California, and 65% in Texas.  Kerry (who is Catholic) lost the Irish Catholic vote in 2004 to Bush (who is Methodist). I have seen only a few polls for state races, for example in 1998 when D'Amato (R) lost his senate seat in New York, D'Amato carried 66% of the Italian vote and 63% of the Irish Catholic vote.  If someone has more polls for statewide races please share them. Also of value is  Prendergast, William B. The Catholic Voter in American Politics: The Passing of the Democratic Monolith (1999), which has many pages on the Irish, and emphasizes that they are split 50-50, with the more religiously devout being more Republican. Rjensen 23:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have Anon here who denies the multiple exit polls and two sacholarly sources about presidential elections. Who would trust him-- he has NO SOURCES whatever for any city or state. He claims that many Irish in Boston vote Democratic. I'm sure they do, but somebody voted for four Republican governors in a row in that state (currently Romney). As for Ed Gillespie he's Irish Catholic from the Boston area who rose to GOP national chairman. (The Democratic counterpart is a Yankee from Vermont.) Rjensen 04:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For once i have to agree, if the anany want to proficde a source for his disagreement i have no problem, other wise i would discount his argument, since he seems to think that your not IC if your not a Dem or live in along the North Atlantic coast. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 06:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Please refrain from personal attacks. IrishGuy 06:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know Ed Gillespie and yes he is ex chairman. I'm smart enough to know that most Irish Catholics voted for Bush (twice). What are YOUR estimates of the Irish Catholic vote in recent presidential elections? Rjensen 05:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For once i have to agree, if the anany want to proficde a source for his disagreement i have no problem, other wise i would discount his argument, since he seems to think that your not IC if your not a Dem or live in along the North Atlantic coast. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 06:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Do you have poll number to back that claim up? --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 06:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK...that is just ridiculous. Please....please...find me one reputable source that most Irish-Catholics voted for Martin O'Malley. IrishGuy 06:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Martin O'Malley won about 90% of the vote in Baltimore--I agree everybody voted for him! Ed Koch is not really Irish, in my opinion.  Fact is the Irish have been front and center on numerous issues, especially abortion, that moved the more religious among them toward Bush. I recall Irish Catholic bishops denouncing Kerry in 2004 re abortion. The polls show that the less "devout" Catholics (in terms of attending Mass) voted for Kerry and the more more devout voted for Bush, who carried a majority of the Catholic vote in 2004, running against a Catholic. (I have not seen the breakdowns for just the Irish, but given their highly visible presence inside the Catholic church I think the generalization applies as well to them.) Rjensen 07:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK...untrue. There were only a small handful of priests and a couple of bishops who denounced Kerry. And keep in mind, it was at the urging of a letter from a Protestant conservative sent to the Vatican. Did the Vatican denounce Kerry? No. IrishGuy 07:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: are you saying Irish Catholics voted for Kerry in 2004??? what percentage of them did so? 75% 65% 55% 51% ????? Rjensen 07:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Kerry was attacked by these Catholic bishops in election 2004--: Archbishop Raymond L Burke of St. Louis, MO; Archbishop John F. Donoghue Archbishop of Atlanta, GA; Bishop Fabian W. Bruskewitz of Lincoln NE; Bishop Henry Rene Gracida, Bishop Emeritus of Corpus Christi, TX; Bishop Robert F. Vasa, Baker, OR; Bishop Joseph Galante of Camden, NJ; Bishop John M. Smith of Trenton, NJ; Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs, CO; Bishop Gerald Gettelfinger of Evansville, IN; Bishop Robert J. Baker Bishop of Charleston, SC; Bishop Peter J. Jugis Bishop of Charlotte, NC; Bishop John Y. Yanta, Bishop of Amarillo, TX. 
Rjensen 07:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: are you saying Irish Catholics voted for Kerry in 2004??? Did I say that? Some Catholics voted for Kerry, obviously. Kerry lost the Catholic vote. Please....pray tell...how was this tied in to the Vatican? Did the Vatican speak against Dukakis? You are wildly over simplifying and assuming that an entire group of people are swayed by one single political issue. IrishGuy 08:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Vatican? no, not the reason.  I suggest that Irish Catholics are splitting about 50-50 in presidential elections. Before 1968 there were 80-90% Democratic.  So they used to give the Dems a big advantage but no more. Abortion plays a role for devout Catholics, but not for others.  I think it is true that 8/10 of Irish Catholic politicians are still Democrats (we see that in Congress and mayoral elections--though the GOP did have the mayor 1993-2001 of Los Angeles, Richard Riorden). Rjensen 08:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  How do Irish Catholics vote? 

message: Here's a summary of CNN exit polls by religion: (from a Republican source)American Spectator
According to CNN's exit poll data, 27% of those who voted on Tuesday were Catholic, which equated to roughly 31 million of 115 million voters. How these Catholics voted is striking: They voted for Bush over Kerry by 51 to 48%. In other words, they mirrored the popular vote to the exact number.
Kerry lost the Catholic vote to Bush by at least a million. A Catholic with a major party nomination should have won the Catholic vote by several million. Another Democratic senator from Massachusetts, John F. Kennedy, once won an extremely close election because he overwhelmingly took the Catholic vote.
The numbers diverge more sharply when one considers devout Catholics compared to those who find their way to church only for weddings and Christmas. Catholics who attend Mass weekly voted for Bush by 55% to 44%.
The breakdown among states is most interesting. Bush remained close to Kerry in Pennsylvania, a state with millions of pro-life Catholic Democrats, which went for Kerry 52 to 48%, because he carried Catholics who go to Mass weekly by 52 to 48%. In New Hampshire, which barely went for Kerry, Bush took Catholics who attend Mass weekly by 63 to 35%.
Most impressive, Catholics played a key role in Florida and Ohio. In Florida, they comprised 28% of voters, and went for Bush 57 to 42%. In Ohio, they made up 26% and went to Bush 55 to 44%. The margin was even wider for Catholics who attend Mass weekly: In Florida, they went to Bush by almost two to one, 66 to 34%, and in Ohio they supported Bush by 65 to 35%.
...The Catholic vote kept Bush competitive in the liberal East, where the 41% of voters who are Catholic went for the Protestant president by 52 to 47%, and those who attend Mass weekly supported him by 56 to 42%. Bush actually won the Catholic vote in New York by 51 to 48%. Those Catholics were offset by the 12% of New Yorkers who claimed no religion at all; these atheists eagerly voted for Kerry by 78 to 19%. Kerry actually almost lost the Catholic vote in his own liberal home state of Massachusetts, where Catholics gave him the nod by a paltry 50 to 49%. Rjensen 07:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  voting 2004 

message: You think that one poll from one election of people from California and Texas that claim Irish heritage can determine how a group has voted in every election for 36 years? No one can seriously think that is a reliable source. 75.3.4.54 18:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a source, and so far it is mone more source then you have been able to provide. SO far the only thing you have been able to provide are rants and stsuations that have no bearing on anything, your rants on O'Mally are tripe and only go to show that you have not the slightest knowledge of politics of demographics in Baltimore. And btw I am Irish-Catholic, was rased Catholic and have a stong Irish background from both sides of the border, so your insults to me about being Anti-Irish is nothinf but that , and insult, I have done more then my fair share to keep irish articles on some kind of nutural footing. As i see it of all the people discussion here you seem that have the most aginst the Irish, with you extrrmely narrow deffinition of what one is, which is apparently not anyone who is in the Republican Party nor lives outside of the NE United States, If you are Irish American i would recomend that you might want to read up on the history of your fellow people and the immigration of them to the united states and see that they dont all live nor did the just migrate to Boston, NY, Phila, Baltimore, or Chicago. Granted i dont like how the section is worded, and think it could use a rewite to be better explained and it is vauge in its wording towards the source and the sunject matter, but a whole sale removal on something that does not push the extrems of POV, which this DOES NOT, is not acceptable, and will not be tolerated. SO why dont you drop you attitude, and try to come up with someting useful say or else i have no problem with to keep on ingnoring you. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 03:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No You have yet to prove anything unreliable, come up with some real numbers, and not made up ones and then you can say that you have proved soething unrelaible. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 03:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: So baiscalyy you canot provide anything to contrdict the current claims, nor back up the ones you make, now thats far less then what Jensen has done, while i dont entirly agree with all of his work, at leat he has done some work, your only thing is to remove information in which you object to, based  upon, well nothing. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 03:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Now you havn't, the only thing that you have show is that the poll has the possibilty to fail, we guess what the same can be said of any poll useing the same conepts that you are using, so baislcy i guess we ought to give you an award becuse you have shown that a plol could be flawed, wow. So i guess now we ought to tak out all poll/and even census data, sicne that is a poll to, i guess then it's time to remove them as well, since they to are also unreliable. But yet you stil have yet to proved one source that would contradit this data, yet to provide and stats that would provied this data, and in the mean time you placed and uncoured and unverified claim into the txt that is going to have to be removed, basically it is the pot calling the kettle black. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 04:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry but no, considering that you have yet to prove that the sours is unrliable other then the fact you dont like it becuse it doen't show the the Irish American are all dems. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 04:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable 

message: If a new poll were to be conducted, and polled the same number of people as RJensen's poll, but this poll was for Irish Catholics that voted for Martin O'Malley. Let's say, 100% of the people polled say they voted for him. Then can we make the assertion that 100% of Irish Catholics vote Democratic in local elections? It would be the same exact situation that RJensen is presenting. 75.3.4.54 18:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hardley. --Boothy443 |  trácht ar 21:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wiki depends on RELIABLE SOURCES. The poll data referenced has furthermore been studied in two reputable scholarly books, which analyzes it in detail.  Every newspaper, journalist, politician and political analyst uses poll data. To reject poll data leaves us with no information at all on voters and makes Wiki look pretty stupid.  Our anonymous critic has not read the books or cited ANY sources for his extreme claims.  Rjensen 04:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: A summary of the exit polls for every state is online at  (pick the state and race you want--these are interviews with voters who just left the voting booth). It shows that in Massachusetts Catholics split about 50-50 (49% for Bush and 51% for Kerry) This is the source used by all the media, politicians and scholars, and it is good enough for Wiki. Rjensen 05:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The poll shows all the House races in the country. It is used by all media and politicians. No one who signed their real name has complained.  I had a few bad students in my day, but none tried to cover their ignorance with anonymity. Come out and debate like a man or just slink away into the darkness. Rjensen 02:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Poll 

message: This section doesn't seem reliable. I have never in my time heard of Irish Catholics in the South being "widely excepted." To my knowledge, their ancestry and religion was indeed of importance in the South, and there are numerous recorded cases of violence in the South against the Irish even into the 20th Century. This section seems like it is derived from some obscure pro-South "historian" who is trying to paint the Irish in the 19th Century as slave drivers and the Southerners of the 19th century as friendly and excepting of the Irish. None of this is historically accurate. I understand that some people have an agenda against the Irish's history of discrimination. I understand that many would like to rewrite history to make it seem like the Irish were never discriminated against in America. I also understand that you people feel it is too "liberal" or "extreme" to say the Irish were ever discriminated against. You cannot wrap your minds around the idea. Or maybe you are ashamed of your past and wish to make the Irish the slave drivers instead of the Anglos. Whatever the case may be, it is historically inaccurate. Anyone who has any knowledge of Southern history would know Irish Catholics were not treated as fellow "good ol' boys" in the South. They were in most cases treated as drunkard Papist immigrants. I'm not saying there is no truth to the South section. I'm sure there was a very small group of Irish in the South that supported slavery and maybe were treated equal. But this group had to be very small, and the section in the article makes it seem as if all Irish in the South were instantly accepted by Southern society.
::Yes it is solid history--Gleeson is well known as the leading historian of Irish in the South, and he is quoted directly. What other sources are there that contradict him? I have not seen any. Wiki's rule is that we use the best sources, and Gleeson certainly qualifies. Rjensen 15:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish in South 

message: Here are the main reviews--all favorable -- by scholars of Gleeson's book on Catholic Irish in South: (some of these are online:) 
# American Historical Review 2003 108(2): 519.  Reviewer: Curran, Robert Emmett.  
# Catholic Historical Review 2003 89(2): 339.  Reviewer: O'Toole, James M.  
# Journal of American Ethnic History 2002 22(1): 96-97.  Reviewer: Emmons, David M.  
# Journal of American History 2003 90(1): 227-228.  Reviewer: Meagher, Timothy J.  
# Journal of Southern History 2003 69(2): 415-416.  Reviewer: Woods, James M.  
Here's the full text of the H-Net review online at 
review by Mark I. Greenberg , University of South Florida, Tampa.
Published by: H-South (November, 2002) 
Scarlett O'Hara and the Blarney Stone
For author David Gleeson, Gone with the Wind offers insight into Irish immigration to the nineteenth-century South. "The ease with which the public accepted the Irish immigrant and [Gerald O'Hara's] fictional family as 'true' southerners emphasizes just how well the Irish had blended into the native population," he notes in the book's final paragraph (p. 194). By the 1930s, the Irish had become the region's "forgotten" people. 
How Irish immigrants to the South went from outsiders to "forgotten" in a century forms a central theme in Gleeson's thought-provoking study, and it raises important issues in southern and immigrant/ethnic history. The white South's ethnic composition has received limited study, and immigrant/ethnic scholars have missed opportunities to address regional distinctiveness, he asserts. The Irish in the South seeks to bridge these two literatures by adding an ethnic dimension to southern history and a southern dimension to American ethnic history. 
Contrasting the "forgotten" theme, Gleeson devotes considerable attention to Irish ethnic institutions and awareness. "It would not have been surprising if the Irish in the South, under pressure from a dominant Protestant majority, had jettisoned their diasporic baggage and sacrificed their Irishness for native acceptance. They did not, however, commit cultural suicide," he writes (p. 22). Instead, he notes countless examples of how the Irish exhibited a cultural heritage, used it to their advantage, diverged from contemporary ethnic stereotypes, and integrated into the non-Irish community. 
Like many ethnic studies, the book begins with a familiar discussion of "push/pull" factors and migration patterns. Many Irish immigrants that came south landed first in a northern port, read of economic opportunities in the press, and moved southward in search of work. Overwhelmingly an agrarian population in Ireland, the Irish in America eschewed rural life. Unfamiliar with a cash crop economy, lacking capital, and fearing physical isolation and continued destitution, they settled overwhelmingly in towns and cities. At most 2 percent of the Confederate states' white population, the Irish urban presence exceeded 20 percent in 1860 Savannah and over 14 percent in Charleston, Mobile, and New Orleans. 
Seeking to give Irish workers agency in their economic lives and prove that they were "not victims of urbanization" (p. 37), Gleeson argues that Irish occupational status varied more widely than nineteenth-century observers revealed. "Despite an Irish presence in every sector of the urban workforce," he concedes "monotonous physical labor was the norm for the largest group of Irish workers" (p. 46). Premature mortality, yellow fever, and cholera placed great stress on almshouses. Crime, alcoholism, and violence further disrupted earning power and stable family life. Short discussions of an 1844 Memphis strike for a ten-hour day and unionism in New Orleans offer only slim support for the author's argument that the Irish were not "pliable victims of the southern economy" (p. 51). Largely missing from his discussions is slavery's impact on Irish economic life, patterns and methods of upward mobility over time or between generations, Irish labor networks, loan organizations, and other collaborative efforts. 
Residential clustering, marriage, social and benevolent organizations, militia companies, and political activism for Irish home rule support Gleeson's assertion that the Irish exhibited an ethnic identity in the South. Faith in God offered cultural stability as well. Ulster immigrants established Presbyterian churches and Catholics gave Roman Catholicism a distinctly Irish tinge. After slow institutional development in the early 1800s and opposition to the predominantly French clerical leadership of the Early National Period, Irish Catholics successfully appealed to Rome for new sees in Virginia and South Carolina. Charleston's Irish bishops, John England and his successor Patrick N. Lynch, argued for the compatibility of Catholicism and republicanism, supported slavery, and worked to limit anti-Catholic sentiment among the overwhelmingly Protestant population. Lay leadership, changes in religious belief and practices over time, what role the Church played in the secession crisis of the 1850s, relations between northern and southern dioceses over slavery and secession, and interaction between Irish Presbyterians and Catholics receive little attention in these pages. 
The Democratic Party actively courted Irish voters and played up Whigs' nativism, according to the author. The Irish responded by serving as the backbone of Democratic support in several southern towns. Though Irish immigrant politicians were relatively few in number, many more emigrants from the Emerald Isle organized on behalf of candidates and party policies. Returning to his theme of assimilation and acceptance, Gleeson contends that Irish immigrants' ability to sway close elections was "a major symbol of their integration into southern society" (p. 94). 
Though Irish immigrants took the Know Nothing threat quite seriously, their acceptance into southern society faced little real challenge from the party, Gleeson asserts. Checking slavery's expansion and preserving the Union, more than nativism, drew southern supporters to the Democrats' chief political rival in the mid 1850s. Strongest in the cities where immigrants concentrated, the Know Nothings inflamed the population with their anti-Irish sentiment and elected mayors and council members in several cities. Tarred with an abolitionist label, the American Party's successes were short-lived, and by 1856 Irish voters had helped to oust its politicians everywhere except in New Orleans. 
Irish interactions with slaves and free blacks and reactions to the secession crisis--covered in just twenty pages--form some of the most interesting but least developed material in the book. Irish immigrants' "white skin and their acceptance of slavery automatically elevated them from the bottom of southern society," Gleeson argues, and thus "they did not have to 'become white' but immediately exploited the advantages their race accorded them" (p. 121). Explicitly rejecting all "whiteness studies" for perceived weaknesses in the work of Noel Ignatiev and David Roediger, the author misses opportunities to address the complex relationship between race, class, and social status in the nineteenth-century South. He argues unpersuasively that acceptance came in part because native southerners "appreciated the economic value of Irish laborers" because "the Irish were willing to take on potentially high-mortality occupations, thereby sparing valuable slave property" (p. 193). 
In addressing how an overwhelmingly non-slaveholding Irish population went from solid Unionists in 1850 to secessionists by 1860, Gleeson offers several suggestions but limited depth. Seeking to show that Irish immigrants' integration into southern white society guided their political views on the crisis, he briefly mentions allegiance to the Democrats, proslavery sentiment, support for the "southern way of life," Church-demanded loyalty to existing institutions, and perceived similarities between Ireland's and the South's political positions. This last idea he explores in just one paragraph and references a single 1858 newspaper article. 
Factors propelling the Irish to support secession moved them to "volunteer in droves" for Confederate military service, because they "believed in the southern cause" (p. 155). Forming ethnic companies, carousing in camp, and usually fighting with ferocity in battle, Irish soldiers also deserted in relatively larger numbers than native-born whites. On the home front, some Irish immigrants likened Union occupation of the South to British occupation of their native lands and sacrificed for the war effort. Others complained bitterly about new hardships and rioted for bread. When Union soldiers entered New Orleans in April 1862--just a year into the war--"many Irish New Orleanians were not too distressed" (p. 168). Slaves' emancipation and long-held fears of job competition drove angry Irish immigrants to violent repression of freedmen's newfound economic and political rights. With the key to their status abolished at war's end, thousands of Irish workers gave up on southern cities and left the region. 
Just how "southern" Irish immigrants became remains unproven by book's end. Though Gleeson argues that the Irish "completed their integration into southern society" by 1877 (p. 173), he never defines the term and often uses "southern" interchangeably with "American" to describe the same actions and attitudes. What does it mean to be a southerner in 1815, 1850, the 1860s, or 1877? Is it more than support for slavery, states' rights, the Confederacy, and black codes? The author offers few if any regional comparisons of occupational structure, ethnic institutions, family life, residential patterns, and other topics regularly addressed by ethnic historians and found in the rich "southern distinctiveness" literature. These omissions prevent him from assessing whether "southerness" extended beyond conformity to pressing political issues. 
Moreover, Gleeson provides weak analysis of the processes guiding immigrant acculturation and ethnic identity formation. Scholars such as Kathleen Conzen, Ewa Morawska, George Pozzetta, Rudolph Vecoli, and others have advanced sophisticated models that account for an uneven course influenced by stimuli internal and external to the immigrant community. To argue that Irish immigrants were "more southern and less Irish" (p. 186) in 1877 than 1815 overlooks a generation of scholarship and misses opportunities to explore how specific moments in time, such as a war, can affect identity and how a cessation of hostilities often relieves pressures on conformity. Rather than explaining how Irish immigrants had become "less Irish" in 1877, Gleeson could have offered insight into the shifting and multiple meanings of Irishness over time. 
For Scarlett O'Hara and other southerners of Irish heritage, Old World and New World identities were not incompatible. In every generation, Americans of all backgrounds have held multiple, shifting identities. If by the 1930s the Irish became a forgotten people in the South, historians lost them. David Gleeson is to be commended for recognizing the important history and roles Irish immigrants played. 
Rjensen 15:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gleeson on irish in South: details

message: Can the person who wrote the following sentence, or who knows what it means, rewrite it, or explain to me what it means, and why it's a good introduction to the section on popular culture? "Irish authors, songsters and actors made a major contribution to American popular culture, often portraying police officers and firefighters as being Irish-American." I'm not asking a trick question, I sincerely don't understand the connection between the two clauses. I was about to place the bit about policemen and firefighters elsewhere, but thought I should ask first. --Cultural Freedom talk 08:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policemen and Firefighters?

message: "between Irish and native American work teams competing for construction jobs"
Can someone please clarify to whom native American refers. Are they talking about the Native American inhabitants who have lived in North America for the last few thousand years or does it simply refer to those people who were born in the United States of America.
::1--Irish actors often portrayed Irish policeman. 2. the "native Americans" were people born in the US (not Indians). Rjensen 01:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Native American?

message: should there be a section on attitudes in Ireland towards Irish-Americans, and the nature of the relationship between the two? Almost everyone from Ireland i've ever spoken to about it thinks its amusing when someone from boston or new york calls themself 'Irish'.
Musungu jim 04:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A Dublin friend of mine has just returned from Boston, and he referred to the sort of thing you describe as "nauseating". Millbanks 09:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish / Irish-American relations 

message: Why is there no mention on Wikipedia of the widespread use of Irish slaves in the Americas during the 17th century? It seems as if the atrocities against the Irish have been glossed over and forgotten, perhaps due to our affiliation with the British over the years? 
This subject deserves mention somewhere, or perhaps on its own page. I am not a historian or particularly knowledgable but ask that people who are share their knowledge on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.255.240.130 (talk • contribs)  (02:06, 25 October 2006)
:Write one. Windyjarhead 04:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Write one. And I think you'll find that "atrocities" are still fondly cared for. Perhaps that is the real problem, 400 years is a long time ago. And a lot of people have moved around. Sometime we have to look at history as history. Not a current event to gripe at. --81.132.246.132 18:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish Slavery ? 

message: This piece should be merged with the more accurately titled, "Presidents of Irish Descent". Just because a President of the USA has some Irish forebears it does not make him an Irish President. We already have our own President here in Ireland, and it's Mary McAleese, not George W Bush Millbanks 14:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting, because King is also a very common Irish name (it can be English or Irish). Would be interesting to know if he too is Irish descent. With that middle name I'm almost certain there must be some linkIamlondon 22:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What is the point in the section on "Irish Presidents" including people like Geroge W. Bush? Surely it is irrelvent if they have some Irish ancestor somewhere back. I would suggest that a lot of this section is not notable. Logoistic 16:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you read the section you would have taken note of the fact that it makes a point of social history - it mentions that what is important is that from a particular point the Irish had reached a position in American society where presidents were incresingly likely to have Irish ancestry. Whether you consider it important or not that is a landmark in the Irish community's progress in American public life and is therefore very noteworthy. The Irish have always been proud of their successes in politics. QED the section is important and has been supported long enough for its inclusion. Thanks, Iamlondon 23:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: *Why does the search for ethnicity always stop at "Irish".  I'm willing to bet that 90% of Americans go right past English relatives in their family trees and ignore them and any other nationalities until they find one Irishman.  Then they stop looking and declare themselves Irish. -- 86.17.211.191 10:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And here's the thing.  If an American person claims Irish heritage and "Irish-American" status through finding say one antecedant a couple of generations or more back, they are missing a very big point: apart from most of the native population, there is not a single person living in America who does not have some heritage from several if not many places.  You are a of course a "new" nation made up almost entirely of immigrants.  If you have to go back a hundred years or three generations to find "Irish" you can bet your bottom dollar you've gone straight past some "English", "Scottish", "Welsh", "Italian", "German", "Russian" etc etc.  But as has already been said, it seems the search for ethnicity is usually looking for just one thing, or stops when that one thing is the first one found.  What does that say about Americans? 62.25.106.209 14:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish Presidents 

message: I've heard of linching of Irish and it was one of the groups that the KKK discrimigrated agains? If this is true why can I find it on wikipedia?
:Yes, the KKK was always deeply anti-Irish - the Irish were overwhelmingly Catholic and the KKK overwhelmingly protestant and anglo-saxon/Scots.Iamlondon 22:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: KKK will now take anyone in that is white, seems that you dont have to be an Aryan anymore, imagine even letting Poles and Paddies in, how times have changed!! but historically were very anti-Irish--Vintagekits 18:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish and KKK