Talk:Counties of Croatia

message: Aww, but I spent some effort to make it the list comprehensive :) Is it really important to make it so compact? This is, after all, the page where one goes for some detailed information about the counties from the main country page, I don't think it's really expected to be so terse. --Shallot 13:02, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: List format

message: While "Counties of Croatia" is a reasonable title for a Category, as an article title it was radically at odds with WP naming conventions.  In terms of WP style, the former article combined two topics that, despite their close relationship, are capable of clear separation. That separation aids users in finding the info they want: 
* County (Croatia) gives the information that is true of each county in Croatia, and conforms with the near-prime directive that titles should be singular nouns.
* List of counties of Croatia conforms to the naming convention for the primary group of topics whose scope is inherantly plural in nature, the enumerations of the members of a group. 
--Jerzy•t 16:43 & 16:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I vehemently disagree. There is no point in separating the concept from the list, because the two are inseparable! I also don't see any substantiation whatsoever for your claim that the current title is against the naming conventions. Have you ever even *seen* the List of subnational entities?! This is absurd and I'm reverting it. --Joy [shallot] 16:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page Title 

message: This unexplained anonymous edit tripped off a series of bad reorganizations in the list. After I fixed it up, the entire Adriatic region is joined into one. This may be a stopgap measure, or it may remain. The traditional distinction taught in Croatian elementary school geography classes was in the edit before that other one. Anyone have thoughts? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  list subdivision 

message: Hi! I've noticed quite a lot of talk about Syrmia naming issue, and I feel selecting Syrmia for the geographic region is correct as English term being used on English wiki. However, after reading the arguments I could not discern why was Vukovar-Syrmia County selected for the Croatian county instead of official English translation of Vukovar-Srijem County: see page 54. I am aware that the official "translations" are inconsistent as there are Požega-Slavonia and Split-Dalmatia vs Osijek-Baranja (not Baranya), but that's another issue. I don't intend to change anything in that respect but I coudn't make out any sense from that, so am I missing something?--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vukovar-Syrmia County vs Vukovar-Srijem County 

message: Here are some comments in no particular order:
*"County borders changed in some instances since, with the latest revision taking place in 2006." - I'd move that sentence to the end of the second paragraph, as it is not a really essential piece of info.
*GDP per capita doesn't sort right. Ditto area.
*Add NUTS-2 (region) to the table?
*Maybe a note on Pazin not being the biggest city in the Istria County.
*The Croatian version of the article might offer some ideas:
**An arguably more suitable image map that identifies the counties, rather than their seats.
**"Pravni akti" is a useful section, and while I don't think it is necessary to go into detail here, I'd still say "Financiranje" is particularly interesting. A (brief?) section on legal framework might enhance the article.
*Refs look fine. (Just minor things like en dashes are left.)
*Spelling/grammar/style look fine; a copyedit will presumably take care of finer points.
Overall, looking very good... A clear FL candidate. GregorB (talk) 19:11, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the remarks! I moved the sentence mentioned above, as this seems to be a better solution. Also, the sort keys are now in. The map used now is problematic as it does not get much smaller than this (to avoid cluttering the text) and remaining legible in the process - I'm going to make a new one with a colour key which will allow no text on the map whatsoever - in effect making the map usable in any size at all, and in other languages as well - similar to the one in Slavonia article. Funding deserves a mention, but I would not go into greater detail regarding legal framework because some information is already there (regarding constitution, assembly, prefect and election) and I feel that should do it. If need be those may be expanded, but I really see no need. I'm not sure about the Pazin bit - the same situation exists in Vukovar-Syrmia County, where Vinkovci are the largest city but Vukovar is the county seat. Of course, Pula/Pazin difference greatly exceeds Vinkovci/Vukovar one, but still... As far as NUTS-2 regions are concerned - I like the idea, but I'll see first if that messes up sorting or not, I don't think that bit is essential, but it would be nice to have. Finally, I'm not quite certain on the ref dashes and other similar issues, so could you have a look too?--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:29, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I got the en dashes, at least in page ranges. Will look out for more. GregorB (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I'm still struggling to get the map right, but it shouldn't take too long.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:28, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the map in the Croatian article becomes garbled (county names appear out of place) when the browser window is not big enough. Tricky. GregorB (talk) 16:06, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  A couple of comments 

message: As far as territory recaptured from the Ottomans is concerned - indeed the Ottoman Empire was pushed back from whatever territory medieval Croatian kingdom held before their conquest, but they were pushed back in two major stages - during the Great Turkish War, when Slavonia was recaptured and nearly two centuries later when Ottomans retreated from present-day Bosnia and Herzegovina and Lika. The latter was annexed to Croatia, but the former was not. Instead it was first occupied by Austria-Hungary while formally remaining a part of Ottoman Empire and then annexed to Austria-Hungary outright despite ideas to contrary. Term Turkish Croatia was used (not anymore) to describe a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina that was of particular interest in terms of annexation in the era. In summation, it would be fair to say that "some" territory was recaptured.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:00, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Recaptured territory

message: The title of the article should really be one or the other, by the Manual of Style. "Croatian Counties" and "Counties of Croatia" would also be redirects to the article, of course. Also, should List of Croatian counties by GDP be brought in somehow, or at least referenced? Also, does something need doing about Counties of the Independent State of Croatia? Allens (talk | contribs) 16:03, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I would prefer List of Counties of Croatia to avoid any misunderstandings in respect of Croatian majority Cantons of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina which are also sometimes called counties in English. As far as Independent State of Croatia (NDH) counties are concerned, I don't think that those should be here except in the "See Also" section since the Republic of Croatia officially claims that it is not legally related to NDH, i.e. that it is a completely different state (albeit named Croatia). On the other hand, the Constitution and other legal documents draw references to the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia as a predecessor state hence this selection o "former counties" from that period.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

text: The pre-1922 counties map appears (as a bitmap though) in the former counties sections, next to the table.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:16, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I spotted that right after I put in the request for clarification - oops! Allens (talk | contribs) 17:14, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

text: Why would it need to be named a list, when it really defines the term "counties of Croatia"? I see nothing wrong with the title. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm not sure about either solution. The article is not a set index article, so it may follow that it should be title "List of..." but I simply do not know for sure. Looking elsewhere (which may or may not be useful) I noticed there are Counties of England and List of counties of England (redirecting to List of counties of the United Kingdom section "England"). The former contains no list, rather a good deal of prose on the topic and the latter contains a bare-bone list. Would that type of solution be preferential - i.e. should this article be broken in two: an article on the counties and a minimum-lede list?--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:32, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was thinking about that earlier, and I'm coming to the conclusion that it would be the best move. Note the procedure at WP:Splitting. Allens (talk | contribs) 08:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

text:  I've put up a draft version of the List article at User:Allens/sandbox/List of Counties of Croatia. This article would simply have the tables removed and a  link at the top to List of Counties of Croatia. Allens (talk | contribs) 10:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I was thinking of something similar. I would like to keep the present article as it is now (with present lists included), admittedly I'd like to propose changing its class from "List" to whichever class is appropriate for this article Top/High/etc. (if there is a consensus to do so), while starting a completely new List of Counties of Croatia, much like the List of counties of England specifying all previous incarnations of counties throughout history, linking them to various periods, as in the England related list.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:52, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

text:  I still fail to see the point. What benefit would any such separation provide to readers? As for the historical overview of counties, there really hasn't been that many changes to the županije (unlike općine), and the NDH ones are in a separate article anyway (and should stay there). --Joy [shallot] (talk) 13:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would definitely like to keep this article intact, with all its present contents. I simply do not know if its title must be "List of..." or not, but I really do not mind one way or the other, as long as it is not an obstacle to a future FL review. The separate article, which I'd like to make, would be an outline (in list format) of evolution of counties in Croatia - I cannot tell from the top of my head if there's enough content to warrant creation of the article or not, but I'll give it a go in my sandbox and see what I come up with.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Come to think of it some more - let's keep everything as is for now, and FL review is sure to point out what need be done, if anything at all. If and when the second article fleshes out, this one can be modified if necessary. How about that?--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  No problem... Allens (talk | contribs) 22:45, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Croatian Counties/List of Counties of Croatia 

message: I've been asked to declare my "official"/GOCE copyediting done, at least for now. I will continue to keep an eye on the article and will be back to copyedit (and, for that matter, give any assistance helpful in splitting the article if that's needed) when the FL discussion starts up. Allens (talk | contribs) 16:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Declaring my copyedit done for now - will keep an eye on and be back when the FL discussion starts up 

message: The Census 2011 results have a new 'collective review' at http://www.dzs.hr/Eng/censuses/census2011/results/htm/E02_02/E02_02.html that has new surface area numbers tagged with:
: Data of the Surveying and Mapping Authority of the Republic of Croatia (calculated from the graphical database of the official records of territorial units)
We should probably switch to that then. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. On a further note, everyone, please keep in mind that the Census Bureau's English translations are horribly wrong more often than not. The above link contains a set of such - for instance they just invented "County of Slavonski Brod-Posavina". (compare defined English language equivalents of the Croatian terms here).--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:42, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  areas 

message: Hi! Recent edits removing sourced material on personal sayso are unacceptable and constitute disruptive editing. Please see WP:BRD.
If one thinks a particular bit of sourced material is interpreted otherwise by other sources, please find a reliable source for that and present it at article's talk page. I am fully aware of prevailing and minority theories of ethnic origins of Croats, but please note that the sourced bit you have removed has nothing to do with origin of Croats, and deals with etymology instead (origin of a word). Just to make clear, presence of a word whose etymology is traced to Avar language does not say anything about ethnic origin one way or another. Forex English word "quiver" is etymologically traced to Hungarian, but it does not trace origin of Englishmen to Hungary or Hungarians. 
In other words, if there is a reliable source (per WP:RS) saying explicitly that the particular word is traced to some other language, please add that information here. Cheers--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No need for accusations, there's a misunderstanding and what you're saying is opening a whole new discussion on which neither modern scholars are completely sure. I advise you to read Origin hypotheses of the Croats, and especially Župa#Origin of the title. The old scholars Avar language consideration, claimed by historian Klaić, is outdated and dismissed now, and there is no NPOV secure language derivation. As such, calling my NPOV edit (which does not emphasize any theory, especially not Avar which neither is mentioned in the Hrvatski Etimološki Rječnik by Alemko Gluhak (1993) disruptive and "sayso" you are calling modern scholars view "sayso".--Crovata (talk) 10:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of sourced materials 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello,
Makes for easier reading / finding, esp. those colours that are hardly distinguishable from each other except when they are side-by-side. Ex.: until I did this rearranging, I hadn't even found out where Primorje-Gorski Kotar was / seen the difference of colour with Istria. The difference between Požega-Slavonia and Brod-Posavina does not appear either until the colours are side-by-side in the legend.
Nor did it occur to me that hoovering over the map would show the counties' names.
Image:Croatia-counties-colorkey450px.png|thumb|centre|350px|alt=Map of present-day counties of Croatia|Counties of Croatia:                         (Hoover in the map over each county to see their name.)
poly 391 126 378 122 373 131 359 139 359 157 372 165 376 173 383 178 393 175 396 162 400 150 415 151 417 146 401 142 393 136 388 132 Vukovar-Srijem County
poly 317 92 326 105 318 124 330 131 328 142 337 146 352 144 356 145 362 136 369 128 377 122 389 127 391 122 395 119 389 117 384 117 383 110 387 98 381 84 373 84 366 84 360 91 350 97 333 94 Osijek-Baranja County
poly 268 151 265 144 273 132 288 139 302 142 303 148 313 147 317 139 334 145 351 146 360 147 358 159 342 158 336 155 334 160 324 154 315 164 301 155 281 153 Brod-Posavina County
poly 255 119 271 131 301 141 307 148 317 140 326 143 328 129 315 123 288 112 288 119 273 120 254 120 263 128 265 133 Požega-Slavonia County
poly 288 112 316 123 326 107 316 93 302 89 295 80 285 80 275 76 269 77 267 84 278 94 288 102 291 101 Virovitica-Podravina County
poly 227 96 229 100 233 107 244 108 255 121 270 119 284 118 288 114 290 103 265 83 252 77 248 66 241 70 239 90 Bjelovar-Bilogora County
poly 214 72 218 63 229 57 238 54 238 52 243 48 248 45 256 54 264 58 274 71 274 75 269 77 266 84 257 76 252 74 246 67 242 68 239 72 239 80 232 80 227 76 222 76 Koprivnica-Križevci County
poly 216 24 215 29 211 27 210 31 215 39 218 44 233 44 246 46 249 44 245 39 238 38 236 31 224 29 Međimurje County
poly 184 48 188 53 196 55 204 55 208 55 208 60 210 67 213 72 216 65 221 60 225 61 228 57 232 54 239 54 240 52 243 46 230 44 215 43 211 39 205 39 200 37 197 37 Varaždin County
poly 185 49 178 51 178 54 173 52 169 52 169 55 168 59 168 63 173 71 171 75 180 75 187 79 190 81 196 77 203 75 209 68 209 55 199 57 188 55 Krapina-Zagorje County
poly 208 65 211 73 216 71 222 77 229 79 237 80 237 90 227 91 224 92 224 97 232 106 222 112 214 105 208 110 204 106 196 113 197 118 189 123 187 120 183 116 179 118 177 114 167 110 164 110 149 97 162 89 167 91 172 87 172 85 173 75 181 76 189 82 181 91 182 96 185 98 183 101 179 101 186 107 191 102 195 95 202 93 207 89 200 78 Zagreb County
poly 189 82 199 79 206 90 195 98 192 102 188 107 178 101 187 96 182 93 City of Zagreb
poly 181 146 178 137 180 132 182 128 186 125 198 120 199 119 197 113 205 109 208 110 214 108 223 113 232 105 241 110 248 116 261 128 268 135 269 141 264 145 266 149 259 146 253 142 245 149 240 147 235 148 228 145 221 151 217 157 211 167 205 163 201 160 196 152 192 152 191 146 Sisak-Moslavina County
poly 147 97 160 110 164 113 168 111 175 117 183 119 186 122 183 127 178 139 180 148 176 150 176 153 175 160 174 167 175 175 170 173 157 173 153 164 145 159 139 157 128 157 124 149 124 140 136 140 138 128 147 128 151 122 146 113 153 108 149 103 145 101 Karlovac County
poly 33 121 37 124 46 123 50 127 59 124 58 118 63 118 65 124 72 128 72 134 71 141 72 151 75 160 74 165 74 175 65 193 54 205 34 183 24 150 19 125 20 116 25 114 Istria County
poly 66 121 73 128 73 145 74 153 76 172 69 191 54 205 71 223 82 232 107 212 104 196 106 192 111 195 116 196 114 191 115 187 114 179 118 170 115 161 121 159 126 158 126 154 123 137 134 138 136 133 137 126 128 122 120 119 116 124 108 118 103 118 104 112 98 104 92 112 88 120 82 121 75 120 Primorje-Gorski Kotar County
poly 109 213 108 198 112 196 117 196 116 186 119 174 117 164 125 161 133 159 146 161 153 168 157 172 175 174 177 181 173 184 180 192 185 190 194 203 193 206 198 212 201 218 194 220 189 215 179 218 177 221 176 224 181 231 174 234 166 232 159 226 153 226 148 222 144 224 139 224 132 215 127 213 121 212 112 213 Lika-Senj County
poly 85 234 114 213 127 215 138 222 144 223 160 230 178 235 183 230 179 222 188 217 189 217 196 220 201 221 206 226 203 233 206 240 202 242 201 246 197 248 192 247 187 244 179 251 182 253 180 263 174 271 169 271 171 272 167 272 161 274 163 279 164 288 153 294 151 296 123 274 Zadar County
poly 152 296 165 287 164 275 175 272 179 263 183 251 180 250 189 247 196 249 202 246 206 240 213 249 220 252 220 256 224 256 226 260 215 266 216 269 219 276 216 280 214 288 210 286 207 289 204 286 199 290 196 294 195 297 196 301 192 306 179 317 Šibenik-Knin County
poly 180 317 194 307 200 298 197 296 203 287 213 287 214 285 214 280 220 278 221 273 215 269 225 258 240 276 240 279 245 282 258 299 263 302 267 306 272 305 277 308 275 314 276 321 280 328 285 330 287 332 286 336 282 336 282 340 283 342 276 347 258 344 247 347 238 348 223 354 215 366 201 368 185 365 170 362 163 349 164 330 175 323 Split-Dalmatia County
poly 215 366 224 355 241 347 256 346 268 346 275 347 282 345 285 343 282 338 290 337 299 341 303 351 303 355 296 358 297 361 302 362 305 359 309 360 313 362 313 369 318 369 322 371 329 377 334 384 341 387 345 386 350 390 351 394 353 399 357 403 358 404 360 408 360 411 354 415 351 416 314 397 297 391 278 384 268 384 250 390 235 387 222 382 213 376 Dubrovnik-Neretva County
desc bottom-left
Pueblo89 (talk) 12:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map legend with colours side-by-side