Talk:Dedan Kimathi

message: ===This is Kimathi's intro===
"A highly controversial character, Kimathi's life has been subject to intense propaganda by both the British government who saw him as a terrorist, and Kenyan nationalists who view him as the heroic figurehead of the Mau Mau rebellion.[1]"
===This is Mandela's intro===
"Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela (/mænˈdɛlə/;[1] 18 July 1918 – 5 December 2013) was a South African anti-apartheid revolutionary, politician, and philanthropist, who served as President of South Africa from 1994 to 1999. He was the country's first black head of state and the first elected in a fully representative democratic election. His government focused on dismantling the legacy of apartheid by tackling institutionalised racism and fostering racial reconciliation. Ideologically an African nationalist and democratic socialist, he served as President of the African National Congress (ANC) party from 1991 to 1997."
===The Difference===
Mandela is not labelled a "highly controversial character" despite millions of South Africans today seeing him as a sellout (which is the reason for the rise of the EFF in South Africa). Kimathi may have been controversial to the couple of thousand white settlers and their homeguards (many of whom took over after the departure of the colonialists) but certainly not to tens of millions of Kenyans across the country. 
So if the reason for not calling Mandela "a highly controversial character" is false equivalence, it's equally false equivalence to give equal weight to a couple of thousand white settlers and their lackeys against millions of Kenyans. Dedan Kimathi's widow Mukami is respected (and visited) by leaders across Kenya's political and ethnic divide who otherwise disagree on a lot of things past and present. Even more important is that when Dedan Kimathi's statue was setup in downtown Nairobi in the 2000s, there was never a public debate among Kenyans over whether he was a freedom fighter and independence hero or not.
===As always, it comes down to the neutrality of the source===
The reference for the "highly controversial character" statement is listed as a publication by Professor Dan Branch, a British scholar at Warwick University as at the time of this writing. Other than being an interested party given his ethnicity and nationality, some of his publications demonstrate nationalist sentiment when it comes to matters Britain. 
Case in point, herehttp://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Why-Jubilee-should-be-confident--not-paranoid-/-/440808/2332184/-/p4unnuz/-/index.html is his somewhat emotional rant in Kenya's largest newspaper when some of Kenya's politicians accused the British of hostility to Kenya's government after the 2013 elections. He speaks strongly in defense of the British government and uses absolute statements even when he isn't anywhere near part of the British government nor privy to its internal decisions. It's hard to see how that kind of person can objectively write on Kenya's colonial history and it already shows here.
For these reasons, I am removing the "highly controversial character" tag in the article and only leaving statements of how the British viewed him and how Kenyans did. Also the phrase "intense propaganda" is meaningless and is an attempt at false equivalence (both British propaganda and Kenyan propaganda is of equal value and equally false) with no evidence. So I'm deleting it too.196.106.139.213 (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Mandela vs Kimathi

message: The reference for the "highly controversial character" statement is listed as a publication by Professor Dan Branch, a British scholar at Warwick University as at the time of this writing. Other than being an interested party given his ethnicity and nationality, some of his publications demonstrate nationalist sentiment when it comes to matters Britain. 
Case in point, herehttp://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Why-Jubilee-should-be-confident--not-paranoid-/-/440808/2332184/-/p4unnuz/-/index.html is his somewhat emotional rant in Kenya's largest newspaper when some of Kenya's politicians accused the British of hostility to Kenya's government after the 2013 elections. He speaks strongly in defense of the British government and uses absolute statements even when he isn't anywhere near part of the British government nor privy to its internal decisions. It's hard to see how that kind of person can objectively write on Kenya's colonial history and it already shows here.
For these reasons, I am removing the "highly controversial character" tag in the article and only leaving statements of how the British viewed him and how Kenyans did. Also the phrase "intense propaganda" is meaningless and is an attempt at false equivalence (both British propaganda and Kenyan propaganda is of equal value and equally false) with no evidence. So I'm deleting it too.196.106.139.213 (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: As always, it comes down to the neutrality of the source

message: "A particularly good source of turned agents for the Government forces were those traitors who had been discovered and were evading the Mau Mau justice, which was typically strangulation or beheading." Calling local inhabitants "traitors" for working with the British government is extremely normative language, to say the least. 
Likewise, "It was customary for the British to execute Africans especially Kikuyus on the flimsiest excuse.[2]" implied that Kimathi was executed on a flimsy excuse, which was not the case; he was executed for leading an armed uprising (merits of that uprising notwithstanding). 
There are others.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrule (talk • contribs) 14:42, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: Below is a cut and paste of the article under this link  I resulted to pasting it here since registration is necessary to access the link and its unlikely anyone will bother going through that pain. 
Kimathi: The man, the myth and the legacy
Story by MAINA KINYATTI
Publication Date: 2/18/2005
Dedan Kimathi is widely recognised by many as a Mau Mau hero, but a few sceptics see him as a villain who conned his way into the history books. Today, on the 48th anniversary of his hanging by British colonialists, historian MAINA KINYATTI looks at the man in a quest for his place in the freedom struggle
 
The dreadlocked, pensive figure, with a middle finger missing in the left hand, is the best known caricature of Dedan Kimathi, the Mau Mau leader who was hanged exactly 48 years ago today.
The dreadlocks were proof of his rough living in the forest, the missing finger a mark of his days as a farm labourer, where it was chopped off in an accident. His meditative mood hinted at his inner turmoil, having reached the end of the road.
The quest for meaning to the Mau Mau struggle and Kimathi's place in Kenya's history continue to be pursued. Lobbyists are still pushing for reparations from Britain and, closer home, there is pressure for his reburial, although his bones are yet to be found. 
But what is rarely understood is how he rose to dominance in the leadership of the armed wing of the Mau Mau, and changed the direction of the struggle.
Historical accounts acknowledge that the struggle acquired a new focus and a sense of national pride and self-confidence when he took the helm, an attribute that mirrored his own life struggles and political consciousness.
He was born into a peasant family in Tetu, Nyeri, on October 31, 1920, his father having died before. At age 15, he joined Karuna-ini primary school where he was christened Dedan. An intelligent and ambitious student, he graduated at the top of his class to join Wandumbi school, where he proved his love for languages, poetry and theatre.
He was also an agile dancer and thrived in the debate club, while brooking no restraint in speaking his mind, which earned him the dubious distinction of "trouble-maker" from the teachers.
Since his mother could not afford his fees, Kimathi paid for his tuition by selling seedlings to the colonial forestry department. This he did during weekends and school holidays.
The task proved tough and futile though, and he would alternately quit school to work till he raised enough money to go back to school.
Through this gruelling struggle for education, he acquired a strong sense of self-reliance and self-esteem, believing in his ability to achieve his life goals. Clearly, this drive for a better life hardened his character and deepened his sense of independence.
In 1941, like many youngsters of the time, he was conscripted into the colonial army to fight for the British in the Second World War.
It was here that his racial consciousness was awakened, and the seed of rebellion that would sprout and bloom in the forest sowed. 
He was dismissed from the army three months later for disobeying orders from a British commander who had made racist remarks against him. 
A brief stint at Scotland mission school Tumutumu followed, but he was soon sent home for lack of fees and his usual outspokenness.
Kimathi later served as a clerk, and went on to teach at Karuna-ini primary school before he was fired for criticising the administration. His last employment before he became involved in the anti-colonial struggle was as a pig farm hand in Ol Kalou.
Fired by the intensity of the anti-colonial struggle, he started attending Kenya African Union (KAU) rallies and reading the party newspaper, Sauti ya Mwafrika, as well as other political publications like Mumenyereri. 
He also read colonial newspapers like Baraza and, at the same time, was actively involved in the Forty Youth Movement. He quickly rose through the KAU ranks to become the youth organiser. 
Recruited into the more militant underground movement, he was sworn in as a committed Mau Mau fighter. He took the oath of unity and loyalty to the revolutionary movement. Above ground, he was elected the KAU branch secretary for Ol Kalou and Nyahururu. He proved a skilful organiser, an effective administrator and a fiery nationalistic orator.
In reality, Kimathi was working at two levels. He was an official of the legal above-ground KAU, but he secretly worked for the underground Mau Mau, recruiting the youth and administering the anti-imperialist oath among the oppressed masses. 
In October 1952, the Mau Mau central committee ordered that Enoch Mwangi organise the liquidation of Chief Waruhiu and Kimathi and Mathenge eliminate Chief Nderi wa Wang’ombe. 
Nderi was executed on October 7 and Waruhiu on October 20. In retaliation, the colonial regime intensified its brutality, killing hundreds and burning homes and destroying property. 
At the same time, it publicly offered a reward to anyone who would give information that would lead to Kimathi’s capture. The "wanted" poster read as follows: 
A reward of 10,000 shillings has been offered by the Kenya [colonial] police for information leading to the arrest of a former Secretary of the Thompson’s Falls Branch of KAU, Dedan Kimathi Waciuri, who is wanted in connection with the murder of Chief Nderi. Kimathi is officially thought to be the leader of [guerrilla band] operating in [Nyandarwa] range.
When last seen he was wearing a black great coat. He carried a long staff. On a previous occasion, he was armed with a rifle thought to be a double-barrelled .450. He is described as 30 years of age, thickset and 5 feet 9 inches in height. He is medium light-skinned, bearded, and has a thin scar about an inch long on or near the right or left cheek bone. The first two joints of the left middle finger are missing. He is a dangerous, fanatic terrorist.
In December 1952, Kimathi was ordered by the Mau Mau war council to join the main guerrilla army in Nyandarua under Stanley Mathenge’s command.
With him were his two younger brothers Wagura and Wambararia and brother in-law Nguthiru wa Ngumo.
Wagura and Nguthiru were killed on the battlefield and Wambararia was captured by the colonial forces in early 1955. And to save his skin, he became a turncoat, but after extracting a lot of information from him, they threw him into prison where he was tried and executed.
On August 16, 1953 Kimathi called a four-day congress to be held at Mwathe in Nyandarwa. Letters were sent out to all field commanders. 
A rift between Kimathi and Mathenge soon emerged as each attempted to consolidate his base. The row was never resolved as Mathenge soon disappeared, and was reported killed by the British forces in May 1955. (The Mathenge mystery remains and an attempt two years ago to search for the lost general turned out to be a hoax).
As the overall commander of the armed movement, Kimathi acted as a teacher and military adviser to the guerrillas, teaching them how to organise successful attacks and encouraging them to be self-reliant. 
He taught them how to win friends and isolate enemies. He was very concerned about the discipline and good conduct among the guerrillas. 
He urged all the Mau Mau cadres and the fighters to make sure the workers and peasants understood the importance of the armed struggle. 
Frequently, he would arrange meetings with the Kenya Land Freedom Army (KLFA) village central committee members to brief them about the war progress.
Kimathi strongly believed that only the people's unity, courage and commitment would bring down the colonial regime and greatly contribute to the total liberation of the African continent. 
His inspired and courageous leadership and organising skills led the British to acknowledge that by 1956, there were virtually two parallel governments in Kenya. 
His capture and death became a matter of absolute importance to the colonial regime. 
He was finally betrayed by a KLFA turncoat and shot and captured by the British on October 20, 1956. 
In prison, the British and their Kenyan friends tried every means at their disposal to buy him out, but he declined. 
The only thing he could negotiate for, he told his captors, was the departure of the British and their armed forces from Kenya. 
On February 18, 1957 the British executed him and buried him in an unmarked grave at the Kamiti maximum security prison, Nairobi. 
And as we celebrate Mau Mau Day today, we must remember Kimathi’s famous words: "It is better to die on our feet than to live on our knees."
The writer teaches history at Hunter College, City University of New York, and is the director of Mau Mau Research Centre, also in New York. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wk muriithi (talk • contribs) 
:Well, if that is the average American's view of history then that explains a lot.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.13 (talk) 12:43, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Cut and paste of Article by Maina Kinyatti

message: The article says : "Notable was his enlisting with the army to fight in the Second World War in 1941. However, in 1944, he was expelled for misconduct."
This implies Kimathi fought in WW2 however I believe this is not the case. While there is no doubt he joined the army, some sources deny he ever fought.
Cf. Ngugu wa Thiong'o' and Micere Githae Mugo's introduction to their play, "The Trial of Dedan Kimathi" (Heinemann African Writers' Series, 1976). They describe travelling to Kimathi's home village where they meet many people who knew him:
"...it is generally assumed that Kimathi fought in the Second 'World' War and people have tended to assume that that was where he learned his military skills as well as his skills in making guns. Kimathi never fought in that war."
I suggest therefore that the article is amended to say that Kimathi enlisted in 1941 but did not see action before his expulsion in 1944 for misconduct.
Ixanthus 14:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second World War? 

message: We need a photo of Kimathi and also mention the bronze statue that has been unveiled in his honour.
Kendirangu 10:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo and Statue 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This citations in this section are insufficient and highly dubious. I am unable to find any other mention outside of the Daily Telegraph of Kimathi's  alleged cannibalistic and similary grotesque abuses as mentioned here. Considering the extraordinary nature of these claims, we are going to have to do better than a British newspaper that gives no indication as to its own source, particularly if that newspaper is the most conservative of any of the major broadsheets.
The citations from Ian Henderson, meanwhile, are perhaps even more egregious from a historical standpoint. The Butcher of Bahrain is not an adequately reliable source for the alleged crimes of the opposing side in a war he personally prosecuted. I can't believe this even has to be said. 
This section is in need of attention from an expert. XXx420 bLaZe iT 69xXx (talk) 10:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, sourcing could be much improved here.--Chuka Chief (talk) 14:20, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mau Mau section 

message: has been persistently inserting sensationalized accounts based on a book by Ian Henderson (police officer), a direct participant in the conflict associated with the Mau Mau uprising, which are questionable both in terms of factual accuracy and in terms of being sourced to someone who has been accused of atrocities in Kenya and elsewhere, and who would have a strong motivation to portray Kimathi in the worst possible light. If the accusations have a place in the article, they should be sourced to academic research on the subject, not to a participant's account or to contemporary sensationalized accounts.
And I'm tired of the reverts with no interactions, with edit summaries complaining about "vandalism." Acroterion (talk) 02:48, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ian Henderson