Talk:Karelian language

message: Karelian is a variety closely related to Finnish.
Does this mean Karelian is a variety of Finnish or a language closely related to Finnish? Efghij
It means (at the moment) that the writer(s) of this paragraph don't participate in the dispute whether Karelian is a language or a "dialect". The issue is elaborated in the (currently) last paragraph.
Is Finland-Swedish a language or a dialect?
Is Meän kieli?
:Finland-Swedish is clearly a dialect. Except for the pronunciation, the differences are very small.
-- Ruhrjung 05:00 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Attempts to standardize Karelian with a Cyrillic alphabet were unsuccessful, and today the Karelian republic (of the Russian federation) consider Karelian a dialect of Finnish, why Finnish is one of its official languages. 
Is that suppose to read Why Finnish is one............... or perhaps it should be where Finnish ?
Smith03
Thank you for pointing this out!
-- Ruhrjung 14:46 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
:: Wrong. Karelia does not consider Karelian a dialect of Finnish and Finnish is not an official language of Karelia (only Russian is). There are moves in the republic to standardise a literary Karelian language, as well as a literary Veps language. Whilst the role of Finnish as a "minority language" is recognised under local legislation, that one receives minimal attention by virtue of having millions of speakers just across the border and needing neither standardisation nor protection. Russoswiss (talk) 12:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old talk 

message: Why must the IPA be used for the examples on Karelian affricates.  What I mean is that I perfectly understand the use as a pronunciation guide, but in the words in Karelian the letter 'c' is used to represent [ts].  I am not aware of 'c' being used in any of the Karelian orthographies I've come across, rather 'ts' would be used, as in Finnish.  --Alcarilinque 14:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That section says that because of the existence of affricates in Karelian, unlike standard Finnish, the Finnish orthography is extended to cover them. This explains the existence of č and other letters. However, it also seems (e.g. this webpage) that c is used in place of Finnish ts. It seems that in Finnish this is not a true phoneme, where in Karelian it is. — Gareth Hughes 15:11, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Though I realize the point is comparison here, it might be important in this case to use a different word, like socializma, where we know that that affricate is written in that particular way.  One thing to note however, is that that may be from older orthography, since Karelian orthography hasn't ever remained standard over the course of the last century.  If you look at this other source for instance, ts is used, even in a loan word: Konstitutsie.   Other cases show that c is used in loan words, but in a Karelian word?  Most places you'd find an equivalent of ts in Finnish show a č in Karelian, i.e. eččie pro fi. etsiä, ičče pro itse, and kaččuo pro. katsoa.  I guess you could argue dialectical variation, and I'm only basing my comments off of more Southern dialects, but... What source does the word kucu come from?  I know it in Karelian as coming from the word kuččuo, in which a different affricate completely is used, and this equates to the Finnish kutsua.  --Alcarilinque 12:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The letter c is often used to transliterate the Cyrillic Ц, as č is often used for Ч, so it may be that this is an older orthography. Under Finnish influence, I'm sure replacing the older c with ts is happening. Therefore, it might be best to edit the article to say that both orthographies are used. — Gareth Hughes 13:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added a change then, but you don't mind if 'kucu' is adjusted to 'kutsu'?  I've never seen that before, but then as I said I'm thinking more about modern orthographies as featured in the newspaper Karielan Šanat, which is in Tver' Karelian.  --Ryan 11:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Notice how Tver place name Tihvinä would be Tyvenelä (location by the calm body of water) in standardised Finnish, basically y has been replaced by ih where i was probably double originally(tiihven-tyven) and vocal harmony & grimm's law do the rest of the changes. So even Tver Karelian hasn't diverged all that far from Basic (old form)Finnish but enough to warrant it's status as it's own language. Honestly Saame, Eesti & Veps are far more unintelligible to a Finn than any of the Karelian languages. At least on paper. —— Amateur linguist88.195.13.47 (talk) 17:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orthographic issues 

message: It might be called Eastern Finnish dialect of Proto Finnish language. It must be remembered that the old Church Slavonic had a strong influence in Karelian dialect, thus change from original vovels to consonants. We can also take Savo dialect as a different language than Finnish language based by Mikael Agricola principles if someone wants to create Savon kieli using the same methods that is going on with the Karelian language. For example original Karelian dialect word pakista (talk) differs a lot of Agricola created puhua. But the old Church Slavonic infuence had created after adoption of Orthodox Christianity in Karelia the current version which is pagista replacing hard k with soft g. Other examples: Minä (I) = Mie, He (They) = Hyö, Sinä (You) = Sie. Also many Russian words had been adopted during the last 900 years.
It was not long ago, in 1970s, I had to spent long times in Kuopio because of my work and I remember well two classic examples of the dialect advertisements shown when travelling from Rissala Airport to Kuopio centre. One in one gasoline station where they advertised "Tiällä tankoot ihtes ja aatos." (Here you fullfil yourselves and your car.) Which should be in proper Finnish language "Täällä tankkaat itsesi ja autosi." Or "Määkkönä torille? Mään. Kääkkönä kuappahallissa? Kään." ( Do you go to market square? Yes I do. Do you go to square hall? Yes, I go visit there.) In proper Finnish "Menetkö torille? Menen. Käytkö kauppahallissa? Käyn.
Everyone Finn understand these Savo versions, but no one has ever thought that with such a criteria a Savo language should be created. In Karelia the question is mainly political attempt made by the Russians to separate the Karelians from Finnish people to be a separate liguistically people of origin than the Finns.
I am myself half Karelian and "a pagisehan mie Karjalan kielt", but use Finnish language and I am sure there would be no problems in (Russian) Karelia do the same. The richness in Finnish language is its dialects and the number of its words. One word in dialects can simply mean different "Siellä se joki huilaa" (There the river flows) in Northern Finnish dialect means in Southern Finland that the river stand still. Tuima ruoka in Western Finland means strong salted food, in Karelian dialect food is not salty enough.    
JN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.116.89 (talk) 23:40, 16 August 2007
:It is customary to make a distinction between Finnish and Karelian and to refer to them as separate languages (mainly due to historical and political reasons), even though in reality they form a dialect continuum. This isn't unusual at all, the same is the case with e.g. Swedish and Norwegian. We can't invent any new terms here on the Wikipedia because that would be original research. As for the idea that Karelian could be called the "Eastern Finnish dialect of Proto Finnish language" (if I understand you correctly), this makes no sense at all; there is no term such as "Proto-Finnish". There is Proto-Finnic, of course, but that is something entirely different. --AAikio 07:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Karelian Language 

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