Talk:Semitone/Archive 1

message: I removed this article from :Category:Intervals because :Category:Meantone intervals is a subcategory of :Category:Intervals, and per Wikipedia:Categorization/Categories_and_subcategories it should not be listed in both (I did not think it justified any of the exceptions listed).  -Big Smooth 16:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It passes every listed exception. This is not only a meantone interval, but also a non-meantone interval. Putting it only in the meantone interval category denies this fact. - Rainwarrior 03:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, OK.  That makes more sense, my mistake. -Big Smooth 18:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Category listing

message: The content below was at semitone. Semitone now redirects here.
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'The size of a semitone'
The terms tone and semitone are often used together, in abbreviated form, to express the pitch difference between the successive notes of diatonic scales. For example, the major scale can be expressed by T-T-S-T-T-T-S. where T equals one tone and S equals one semitone.
*The above is about the diatonic and major scales, not the semitone. Hyacinth 00:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Content from Semitone

message: :Musical intervals smaller than a semitone are common in Eastern music and also occur, though rarely, in some Western classical music since the beginning of the twentieth century. Such intervals are called microtones and the music containing them, microtonal. This doesn't include small pitch variations often encountered in tonal music, such as vibrato or guitar string bending, etc.
:For technological, rather than musical, reasons, the semitone can be divided into one hundred cents, with around five cents (one twentieth of a semitone) being the smallest pitch difference discernible by the human ear. Cents are generally of interest only to audio engineers or instrument manufacturers - and are irrelevant to most musicians.
I removed the above section as it is not about semitones and was accumulating arguments. Hyacinth 10:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Smaller than a semitone

message: Keenan,.  I wish you wouldn't call things "crap". This is NOT appropriate Wiki-talk. (If you have any knowledge of Ancient Greek Music History, references should not be necessary.  These are NOT disputable points.) And please, don't be arrogant!  YOU can look up the history of Hammond Organs for yourself, and find out when they stopped making the tone-wheels.  These are well-established facts, and hardly need "proving" by an over-abundance of references!!! 
:(Please don't assume the utter stupidity of the average reader, who you infer can neither take established facts as presented, nor do their own research!) OF COURSE, DISPUTABLE INFO should be substantiated!!!  Now, can we try a more mutually co-operative approach?  (Prof.rick)
::I corrected your formatting, hope you don't mind. What exactly are you claiming is indisputable? I have never heard 25/24 called "semitone minimus", and the only Google hits are Dale Pond's website and verbatim copies of it, so I don't think Wikipedia should call it that. My problem with the last sentence isn't so much that it's disputable, now that I think about it, but simply that it doesn't belong in this article. The article is about the semitone; what does that have to do with the year they stopped making tonewheel organs?
::P.S. Please don't take anything I say personally, I'm just devoted to the encyclopedia and sometimes forget about the people who help write it. —Keenan Pepper 05:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I started out with a well-defined mathematical sequence, the continued fraction expansion of \sqrt[12]2 (17/16, 18/17, 89/84, 196/185...) and it seems like you just ignored that sequence and added in some other numbers that don't fit, which upset me. —Keenan Pepper 05:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Useless criticism?

message: Keenan, I have ammended the article, in consideration of your arguements.  (I doubt if I've covered them all, since you find so many, whether justified or debatable.)  If you still find any of the content objectionable, unsubstantiated, or irrelevant, please, SAY SO. I will then examine your comments further.  -Prof.rick Aug. 6, 2006
If you are not satisfied with my editing, please comment further. 
Keenan:  If you are satisfied to accept the intervals of ET as simple multiples of the ET semitone, then why not consider the possibility that the ET semitone itself can be defined by multiples of a smaller unit (notably, powers of 1/2), especially when the human ear can recognize such fine distinctions as 1/8 semitone? 
You are hardly in a position to criticize my data (or references) when your own reference for the Hammond Organ semitone disproved your claim, proving it non-verifiable. (And you did so at the expense of deleting my article, and all it's relevant information.)  The inadequacies of the Hammond organ are hardly relevant, especially when misquoted!!!  (Technological shortcomings cannot justify false semitones.)
:I don't know what you're talking about. Please explain yourself. —Keenan Pepper 06:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that is not the purpose of this article. The purpose of this article is to provide an encyclopedic description of the semitone that follows Wikipedia policies. I don't know where you got any other idea. —Keenan Pepper 06:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits

message: Why does the opening paragraph (which attempts to define the semitone), make reference to the piano keyboard, naming "from a white key to it's neighbouring black key", "from a white key to the next white key, when there is no black key between them", but fails to mention "from a black key to it's neighbouring white key"?  (A semitone does not have to start with a white key!)  Anyone agree?
:Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 05:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Keyboard

message: :By traditional definition, the semitone is a discord.  Yet for centuries, even the Major Third  was classified as dissonant. Certainly, the Art of Music and Aural Perception are in a state of continuous evolution, making such definitions strictly relative. It is impossible to classify any given interval as "concordant" or "discordant" without reference to its musical context.  In much 20th and 21st century music, the semitone (or Minor Second), along with its inversion (the Major Seventh) and its compound form (the Minor Ninth) have been utilized in contexts of "virtual concord", sometimes as satisying resolutions, even in final cadences, particularly in Jazz and Blues contexts.''
:Even the major triad can be interpreted as a relative discord, depending upon its context.''
:As the Art of Music and Aural Perception continue to evolve, concord and discord must be regarded as "relative" terms, determined both by musical context and personal taste.''
I moved the section above, titled "Semitone: concord or discord?", from the article as it is not about semitones. Hyacinth 05:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks.  I wasn't really sure where it should go.  Appreciate the help!  -Prof.rick Prof.rick 05:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you will find this information conveyed in the article on Consonance and dissonance. Hyacinth 23:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed: Discord

message: :The human ear can hear frequencies as high as 20,000 Hz or so. Neither fundamental tones nor harmonics which exceed this limit are audible. This places harmonics 139 and 138 within audible range of an approximate fundamental frequency of D (middle line of the bass clef), and, of course,  all audible lower frequencies. Do we "hear" these higher harmonics?   Amongst a spectrum of other harmonics, we probably do hear them. Although we generally cannot selectively isolate a specific harmonic and "listen" to it, we no doubt hear it subliminally, and respond accordingly.
I removed the above as it isn't about semitones. Hyacinth 23:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed: Harmonics

message: OK, Keenan.  I am placing this note both here and on my own Talk page, to be sure you find it.  I hope you find the revisions to be reasonable, particularly the new references to 3mu and prime-number harmonics. However, I am not finished editing. The earlier part of the section needs some revamping, and I can probably find better references. I will be waiting to hear your feedback (provided it can be presented without a demeaning tone). I did find some of your more recent comments to be nicely presented.  -Prof.rick Prof.rick 05:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing

message: :The minor second is synonymous with the term "'diatonic semitone'"; the other type of semitone, the "'chromatic semitone'", is technically the interval called the '"augmented prime'".
This conflicts with the information from semitone so I removed it. Hyacinth 23:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed: Diatonic vs chromatic

message: ----
In music, a chromatic semitone is the amount by which any note is raised by the addition of a sharp, or lowered by the addition of a flat. In equal temperament, it has a value of exactly 100 cents, or one-twelfth of an octave, and is enharmonic with the diatonic semitone, which is also 100 cents. The two are therefore often conflated, and given the common name of semitone or, in North America,  half-step. 
However, in any meantone tuning aside from equal temperament, the chromatic semitone is smaller than the diatonic semitone. In Pythagorean tuning it would be larger, equal to the apotome of 2187/2048 rather than the Pythagorean minor semitone, or limma, of 256/243, which corresponds to the diatonic semitone. Hence using it in connection with Pythagorean intervals invites confusion, and the word is not generally used in such cases, being reserved for meantone intonation.
For intervals in just intonation, the just chromatic semitone of 25/24 the septimal chromatic semitone of 21/20, and the major chroma of 135/128 can be equated with the chromatic semitone. 
The chromatic semitone is the amount by which any minor interval needs to be expanded to become major, or by which any major interval is reduced to become minor . For any perfect interval, sharpening of its upper note (or flattening of its lower note) by a chromatic semitone leads to the augmented version of the interval. Similarly  flattening of the upper note (or sharpening of its lower note) leads to the diminished version of the interval. For this reason, the chromatic semitone is sometimes called an augmented unison or augmented prime.
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The above is from Chromatic semitone, which now redirects here. Hyacinth 23:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chromatic semitone

message: *Incorporate appropriate information from #Content from Semitone.
*Incorporate appropriate information from #Chromatic semitone.
*Include more citations for ratio and historical claims.
*Archive old discussions on this talk page.
Above is a to-do list for this article. Please discuss and add more. Hyacinth 00:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: To do