Talk:History of the west coast of North America

message: I've finished the heavy lifting phase of adapting text from other articles and placing them here, plus adding linkage, context, and connection information.  I will also now add "See also" links in the appropriate articles.   
At this point (although I will likely continue to tinker), I will cheerfully pass the baton to other editors to expand the material that is here, and to work on the last part of the article; hopefully, we can get this article up to GA standards! NorCalHistory 00:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: First phase of major re-write concluded - other editors invited

message: Certain of these new paragraphs are taken (at this point) verbatim (or nearly verbatim) from the PD Etext cited, which I understand to be a permissible use of this PD material.  If other editors disagree, they are welcome to edit these paragraphs to ameliorate the issue, or to remove these paragraphs; if you do disagree, please provide support for your disagreement. NorCalHistory 05:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New Spanish Exploration material

message: Been monitoring this page for a while, and not done much because I hate writing stuff with a reference book cribbed open on my knee.  Your density of coverage for the southerly Spanish explorations is really great and I'll try and bring in some more details on the BC Coast information regarding same; I think the period (no real fixed termination date), though, might best be put as "the Marine Fur Trade and Imperial Rivalry" instead of "Spanish vs. British" or whatever that title is as not only the Spanish and Brits were involved, and the marine fur trade is why they were there; and also why the Boston traders were there.  The details of Meares' tiny outpost at Nootka Sound, vs. the effective presidio of the Spanish, I'll dig out of Akrigg and Pethick later today.  Recommended books on this era, if you're interested, are by Derek Pethick: First Voyages to the Northwest Coast and The Nootka Connection.  He has other books (search Amazon); those two cross over each other's contents as they're compilations/analyses of the various ship captain's logs and anything else known at the time of writing.  Another great author on coastal/marine history is James Delgado, formerly head of the Maritime Museum in Vancouver but not relocated to Florida or somewhere.  Meares was an upstart and a bit of a rascal, and there's debates as to whether his "trading post" was ever anything more than a hut; Spanish internment of him and seizure of his assets, and various visiting ships as I recall, is what triggered off the Nootka Crisis; it's important to note that the Nootka Conventions opened the door for American claims on the region (Spanish claims were not given up, just reduced from monopoly to the precursor to "joint occupancy", which is how the American inheritance of the Spanish claims/rights in the region was translated into dealing with Britain's largely fallow claims...Pethick and others note that if the Napoleonic Wars hadn't broken out, Vancouver's proposal to turn Puget Sound and the Columbia into a transplantation colony would have wound up seeing the Newgate accent transplanted here instead of Australia....and American claims to the area would have been marginalized and/or easily dismissed...Lots more to be done on this page; I was going to try and draw up a roster of shipwrecks, also, for Graveyard of the Pacific, but I'd need Delgado's books for that.  Your map of Anian I can come up with better for, provided I get my scanner working (see if your library has Derek Hayes' Historical Atlas of British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest; it's amazing...); also there's a couple of ancient theses from BC universities pertaining to early history that I'll dig up the LoC numbers for; you should be able to get them, or copies of them, from interlibrary loans....Skookum1 22:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I'm back/here

message: Any have any strong feelings one way or the other about changing the name (i.e, moving) the  article from "History of the west coast of North America" to "History of the West Coast of North America"? NorCalHistory 22:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't say I have strong feelings, but sentence case is the rule for article titles. The Wiki-police would probably get on the case without a justification. Maybe "Pacific Coast" could pass easier as a proper name. Bobanny 03:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name change/move?

message: Think I spelled that right; there's an article on on him; maybe Hoi shin or Hui shin - Hui shen - the Buddhist monk from Kabul who had a commission from the Chinese Emperor to proselytize the faith in the land of jade mountains etc; very apocryphal but as much part of history as Anian or even Juan de Fuca or Drake; my own view is that, being from Kabul (Jilin in Chinese) he actually wasn't Chinese, but there's no knowing his ethnicity given the eclectic and non-national nature of Buddhism in the 5th-6th Centuries or whatever it was; for all anyone knows he might have been a Bactrian Greek.  There are even wilder theories about Genghis Khan's fleet making it to the Skeena, but Hoei shin has some credibility at least.
BTW you do know Jonathan Swift placed Brobdingnag to the north of Anian, right?  I won't be around to do it, but Legendary history of the Northwest Passage would be rich material; Admirals de Fonte and Maldonado and their lies/maps, the Grand Mer de l'Ouest, Bergi and Cibola as well as Anian, and more....Skookum1 20:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Hui shen]]

message: I'm really impressed by these, but aren't the Spanish interests and Spanish exploration sections redundant.  I'll admit to not reading them closely but they seem to cover the same material.  Also wanted to add that one of the "new" books about Drake that's around, I think the one by Frank Ney, documents Drake's privateering/raids as he came up the Central American coast - a little buccaneering en route to Nova Albion.  I haven't read the text closely to see how the debate about where he landed is covered, althouth that's more the subject that belongs in teh Nova Albion article.  Hermosa, if there's an article on it, is a theorized Mexican pirate stronghold that was in Bellingham Bay; it should maybe be mentioned somehow, if only as a speculative bit of history (all literary and circumstantial evidence, plus some oral history from the Similkameen/Okanagan peoples inland).Skookum1 (talk) 13:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like Hermosa (pirate stronghold) doesn't have an article yet; my sources for it, Fur and Gold and Indian Wars in the Pacific Northwest, are 4000 miles away in my storage in British Columbia....I think it may crop up in the Ney book or another; I remember seeing something online about it, I'll see what I can find.  Hey NorCalHistory, if I haven't mentioned Derek Pethick's books The Nootka Crisis and First Voyages to the Northwest Coast (First Explorations?) I recommend 'em for you....Skookum1 (talk) 14:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure the actual content is redundant, but the organization of sections is at least confusing and somewhat redundant. I noticed this yesterday when adding the info on Galiano. I'm not sure offhand out to better organize the page, perhaps the sections do not need to be organized by nationality all the time -- ie, "exploration" by era instead of by nation, at least for the later periods, might make an easier read. I'll try to look more closely later. Pfly (talk) 15:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the narrative in the pacific northwest is clearly joint-timeframe between the Spanish and British; hard to separate them, although it can safely be said the Spanish were around more and involved more ships, at least until the RN made its presence more felt in the area later on (speaking of which teh RN base at Esquimalt - shipyard and naval hospital and the Ft Rupert coaling station - should probably be mentioned somewhere as part of Britain's assertion of its presence in teh pacific as much as also a bulwark against US expansion).  But yeah, an easier read is the point; like i saidI didn't read closely to see what was repeated, if anything, but it seems that both sections are covering the sameground....Skookum1 (talk) 20:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, actually it looks like the main section 2, "European arrival", is about the early, mostly Spanish stuff occurring down in Mexico and Central America (after all the article is about the entire west coast of North America); while section 3, "Settlements and conflicts (1750-1846)", focuses more on the Pacific Northwest (though not entirely), with various nationalities involved. It makes more sense and looks less redundant than I thought at first. Pfly (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: redundancy of Spanish sections?

message: I felt that the page is almost entirely devoted to West Coast America post-colonization, largely ignoring it's long history of indigenous peoples. The article also neglects the natural history of the area. These facets of the subject are critical in telling the whole story. If I had the knowledge I would take the responsibility of writing it myself.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.20.193 (talk) 23:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: First peoples section needs expansion

message: In the section "Conflict between Spain and Great Britain" I just reworded this part:  ...Nootka Convention, signed in 1790. ... while still retaining a claim of ownership to the area, Spain allowed British trading posts north of the 42nd parallel (today's boundary between California and Oregon). I've searched on this for a while and it seems to me that the Nootka Convention did not include a precise boundary. The 42nd parallel seems to come from the later Adams-Onís Treaty. As far as I can tell, Britain made no official claims about their southern boundary west of the Rockies until the Oregon boundary dispute era, and even then the British proposed boundaries were all far north of 42 degrees. In other words, the southern British claim was ambiguous while the US and Spain (later Mexico) established the 42nd parallel boundary between themselves.
Just wanted to explain. I'd be curious to know of good sources for more info on this. I searched for the actual text of the 3 Nootka Conventions but failed. Do they still exist? Pfly (talk) 05:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm.  It's been a long time since I read Pethick's Nootka Crisis, thought it was in there somewhere, guess I assumed it was in the Nootka Conventions.  It may be the Adams-Onis Treaty but that doesn't sound right; there was some pre-extant agreement that delimited Spanish California at the 42nd....maybe it was a Russo-Spanish agreement, I'm sorry I don't have any of my books here (I'm in Halifax NS rather than BC); there was something predicating why the Spanish were willing to sign off north of the 42nd.  I thought it was the Nootka Convention, maybe as said it was Russo-Spanish or another Spanish-British item, though I can't recall one.Skookum1 (talk) 12:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There were Russo-Spanish agreements/notes/treaties, that I do remember for sure; still, Russian settlements in California were (maybe) tolerated by this same agreement, despite the 42nd....can't remember why or how....Skookum1 (talk) 12:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Treaty of Saint Petersburg (1825) is one of the Russo-British arrangements; the article linked is just a stub and I added relevant cats and WPs...the Ukase of 1821 engendered this; and there were corollary leases concerning British usage of the mainland Alaska Panhandle (in operative practices also including adjacent islands, such as Etolin Island where Fort Stikine was located).  The complicated background to these and other treaties is in the Begg and Scholefield/Howay links I added a day or two ago to Alaska boundary dispute.Skookum1 (talk) 17:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 42nd parallel

message: :Explorers and fur trappers from the Russian Empire (beginning with the Vitus Bering expedition of 1741) arrived on the Pacific coast of today's Alaska, and after establishing settlements there (beginning in 1784), expanded hunting and trading down the west coast of North America. In the early 1800s, fur trappers of the Russian Empire explored the west coast of North America, hunting for sea otter pelts as far south as San Diego. In 1812, the Russian-American Company set up a fortified trading post at Fort Ross, near present day Bodega Bay some sixty miles north of San Francisco.
This section obviously needs considerable expansion, considering the weight given to Spanish activities in the same area, but I'll hold off until I've gotten at pending articles on the Ukases of 1799 and 1821 and related materials; at least the founding of Sitka/Novo Archangelsk should be here and other major details; I'm not famliar with the dates and personnel, so just making this note; I was hoping to find some scratch-starter material here for the Ukases, as the 1799 one is the one which formalzed Russian claims in North America, i.e. as a province/territory and not just a claim; or that's what I'm reading off it at the moment; it's also the decree that established the 55th Parallel, later amended to 54-40, as a territorial division in the region (later undserscored by the Russoa-emrican  Treaty of 1824 and the Russo-British treaty of 1825).  It's also important to note, if not already stated in teh Spanish sections, that Russian activities in the North Pacific were what had gotten the curiosity/determination of the Spanish going which led to their northward explorations from San Blas and the Nootka Sound business....I'll be back.....Skookum1 (talk) 01:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Russian settlements section

message: Again not sure if this is now in the article; France before the Napoleonic Wars was making noise about claims on the Northwest Coast, and there's the various schemes to obtain California that came up later after him; La Perouse's lost journals were said to contain records of his asserting the French imperial interests in the PacNW through rites of possession but I dno't have a source for that, just something I read, maybe by Delgado.Skookum1 (talk) 01:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: The French claim(s) and La Perouse

message: I haven't even tried rating this for WP:Canada and WP:History and WP:NorthAmNative yet (which I just added); while certain topics are fleshed out in great detail, particularly and fittingly the Spanish era history, there's other big blocks or parlallel info about theRussians and British and early Americans, and also of coruse First Nations and Native Americans, and the importance of Asian immigration as well......it may be is at "B" class because of the format, citations, layout, etc, but in terms of content I don't see this as anywhere near GA Class, unelss I'm misundersatanding what GA Class is; I gahter that improving stuff up from GA to A is the point of a GA, but GA to me as "good article" should mean that the information in it is relatively complete,  well not "complete" but maybe "whole" is a better term; lengthy though it is this article is still just an infrastructure, an outline in need of more meat; like the Cailfornia history articles maybe it needs to be more than one article, also....I have some thoughts about what to add to the Russian and British sections and will try and do up some of that in the next week, but even then they're only "directional expansions" and need more time/work, and I just don't have enough (time, that is)......maybe int he morning I'll come up with some events/issues as a to-do list while I'm having mmy wake up wiki-and-coffee....Skookum1 (talk) 04:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree, I would like to see a to-do list established and worked on before giving a "B" rating.  However, it is definitely at least a "C" class article.  PKT(alk) 18:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A, B, C's of GA to-dos

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on History of the west coast of North America. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090619041330/http://www.pacificrim.usfca.edu/research/pacrimreport/pacrimreport39.html to http://www.pacificrim.usfca.edu/research/pacrimreport/pacrimreport39.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060624193913/http://etext.teamnesbitt.com/books/etext/etext04/8marc10.txt.html to http://etext.teamnesbitt.com/books/etext/etext04/8marc10.txt.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120102074700/http://www.1st-hand-history.org/Hhb/HHBindex.htm to http://www.1st-hand-history.org/Hhb/HHBindex.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:32, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on History of the west coast of North America. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061017132525/http://www.vancouverisland.com/Regions/towns/?townID=68 to http://www.vancouverisland.com/Regions/towns/?townID=68
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:33, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This B-class article has enough prose to have more than a single paragraph lead. Tagging could result in demotion so if someone could look at this it would be appreciated.  Otr500 (talk) 04:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article issues