Talk:Ardeatine massacre

message: Non comunist group , this is not true . They were comunists.
Re the aspect of who the German unit attacked was - to be pedantic I think that the original description of it being Military Police is wrong - the Military Police (Feldgendarmerie) of the German Army and Waffen SS were a specific corps (like the RMP or US MPs or Airforce Police)- i think this unit was more likely to have been a locally raised SS Police unit (which is not the same thing as a Military Police unit)- the caption on the photo with the article in Germans says 'eine Südtiroler Polizei-Einheit' ( a South Tyrolean Police Unit) - there were many such security units raised there of both the Home Guard and more active combat/security police variant (still doesn't make them MPs though!). Various other accounts specify the unit to be S.S. Polizei Regiment 'Bozen'  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.95.241 (talk) 16:09, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bandiera Rossa 

message: In the opening paragraph it is incorrect to speak of Nazi German troops. Nazi is a term denoting membership of in the National Socialist Democratic Worker's Party of Germany. Fewer that 5% of Germans were ever members of this party. To understand the absurdity of refering to German soldiers as Nazis, imagine referring to the Democrat American soldiers landing in Normandy, or the Conservative British soldiers fighting at El Alamein, or the Communist Soviet soldiers fighting etc...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.138.71 (talk) 19:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. They were soldiers of a state commonly known as Nazi Germany, so "Nazi German soldiers" is fine. Manormadman (talk) 11:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Above rebuttal by Manormadman is sufficient by itself but, moreover,  conclusive evidence has emerged in our days, that show the Wehrmacht to have been an equal protagonist on the various war crimes and atrocities perpetrated by the German side during WWII. (See, inter alia, War crimes of the Wehrmacht.) What the German armed forces did during the war and how they behaved towards both opposite combatants and civilians was part and parcel of Nazi ideology, irrespective of each particular individual's status in German politics. The label "Nazi Germany", therefore, can only be denoted as apt.-The Gnome (talk) 07:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect use of the word Nazi 

message: The introduction is now far too large - we need to either put most of it under the "massacre" heading, or, IMHO better, split into "run up" to the event, "the massacre", and "after the massacre" r 11:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. --Piero Montesacro 13:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Just tried to split the article contents in subsections (according to the suggestion by r above)... Sorry for the lack of edit summaries, but this is what I was trying to do with my latest edits... --Piero Montesacro 00:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree - so I tried some more in this direction.-The Gnome (talk) 07:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure

message: The Ardeatine Massacre is under reported in history, and especially on the Web.  I hope someone can take some time to adequately expand this article.
Recent action includes a decision in a court case about a journalist's attempt to label the victims as communists.  Here is a post from a usually reliable physicist in Italy, covering that matter, with a few links:  http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2007/08/07/via-rasella-the-truth-and-the-liar/
Surprisingly few photos of the memorial are available that I can find. Can we find someone in Rome to update and expand?  It would be good to link to some of the panorama photos of the site that are available:  http://ww2panorama.org/panoramas/roma
Edarrell (talk) 10:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Need to expand

message: The article says the reprisal was illegal, but in the film, written by Robert Katz, the Germans say it is legal under the Hague Convention, and the Italian priest seems to reluctantly agree. What is the true position?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.254.54 (talk) 09:50, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Reprisals were arguably legal according to the Hague Convention, but the way in which they were carried out made them an unequivocal war crime. Mballen (talk) 00:46, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The question was about the massacre the article is about, not the initial action by the Partisans. Aside from that, rules apply to legal bodies, which is what the Hague convention is saying, missing the point that when your country is occupied by foreign soldiers, it's not about legalities anymore, you resist or you don't. If you do, all is fair. Aesma (talk) 17:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: "Illegal?"

message: We need to inform readers through a very short link or sentence or phrase, that Italy was, at this time, allied with the, uh, Allies, a change from a year earlier. Therefore, this part of Italy was, de facto, "occupied by German soldiers." This is to justify the "collaborationist" sentences later. Don't want to distract the reader, but s/he may need that info as background. Student7 (talk) 03:03, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with this, but don't know yet how to do it. At the time of the Massacre Rome had been declared an "open city" -- i.e., a demilitarized zone, at the request of the Pope, but the German occupiers disregarded this, moving their soldiers and tanks through it, as did the Allies, who were bombing it. In 1943, the king had deposed and imprisoned Mussolini, appointed Badoglio Prime Minister, and had surrendered Italy to the Allies. However, Hitler was not happy about Italy's defection from the Axis cause. He sent in his troops to invade Rome and he rescued Mussolini, setting him up in the so-called  "Republic of Salò" in Northern Italy. The king and Badoglio had fled in advance of the German invasion, leaving a power vacuum for the Wehrmacht to fill. The  German troops that were ambushed on Via Rasella had been organized by the Nazis to intimidate and hunt down members of the Resistance (which also included Monarchists and members of the Carabinieri, whom the Germans particularly distrusted and subjected to torture). The Resistance was working with the Allies to throw out the Germans. The Pope and some of the Nazi diplomats were dead set against the Allied demand for "unconditional surrender" and were hoping to negotiate a "separate peace." This was why some of them, such as Dollman didn't want severe reprisals and even tried vainly to prevent the round-up of the Jews of Rome. It should also be mentioned that Roberto Rossellini's film "Open City" was based on these events and was filmed in 1944, immediately after the Allied victory, and was therefore, virtually a reenactment. That is the backstory.Mballen (talk) 08:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Occupied Italy

message: The article does not say much about the Ardeatine Caves themselves. Where do they come from, what do they look like, what is their geology, are they natural or man-made? It would be good if somebody with appropriate knowledge could supplement this information.ViennaUK (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps an article dedicated to the Caves as such would include all the pertinent details. But this entry is about the "Ardeatine Caves massacre.-The Gnome (talk) 07:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ardeatine Caves  

message: I changed the names of two sections. One changed "protagonists" to "participants", because "protagonist" is often used in contrast to "antagonist" and the section discusses individuals from both sides. It was "Fate of protagonists" and was changed to "Post-war fate of major participants".
I changed "Terrorism or freedom fighting?" to "Was the Via Rasella attack an act of war or an act of terrorism?". This is the language used in the section and I think it is better to avoid the term "freedom fighting." The Via Rasella incident has to be considered in the context of World War II. The section does this effectively, and I think the title change reflects that. Roches (talk) 09:21, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like to see an example in which "protagonist" is used in contrast to "antagonist". I have never heard of this usage. The dictionary merely defines protagonist as a "main character" in the story. Mballen (talk) 01:12, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changed names of two sections 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Ardeatine massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060302093625/http://www.catholicleague.org:80/piusxii_and_the_holocaust/viarasel.htm to http://www.catholicleague.org/piusxii_and_the_holocaust/viarasel.htm
*Added  tag to http://resources.ushmm.org/film/display/main.php?search=simple&dquery=keyword%28HUMAN+REMAINS%29&cache_file=uia_kCvydr&total_recs=36&page_len=25&page=1&rec=1&file_num=1273
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:00, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Several Italian-language sources explicitly state that the surviving regiment members did not participate in the massacre. I will attempt to consolidate the references and possibly make a case for removing the regiment's name from the 'perp' list.
Also, I read one claim that these units from Sudtyrol did not have SS appended to their designations until sometime after the massacre.
Blbachman (talk) 19:48, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Policeregiment Bozen 

message: The article should mention that the partisans were terrorists. (109.153.101.59 (talk) 15:38, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is some disagreement among scholars, clergy, and historians about whether violent acts by irregular resistance forces against invaders with whom one is at war constitute terrorism. The head of the legitimate Italian Government, Badoglio, seems to have sanctioned resistance in the statement he issued before he fled the country, and the Allied forces announced that it expected and supported such resistance.  Don't forget that during this time the illegal Nazi occupiers were were summarily shooting and torturing Italian civilians and army officers: acts of war, surely. That the targeted regiment was composed of former soldiers of the Italian army is unfortunate, but they were on the wrong side of the conflict and must have known they could be targets. Mballen (talk) 06:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrorists