Talk:Berserk (manga)/Archive 2

message: I'd like to mention that my comments I stated later in this talk page were intended as neither flame nor flame-bait. I deeply apologize if anyone misinterpreted it as such.  The entire argument(s) that follows are completely moot (see WP:MOS-JA under "fictional characters"), so I'm going to archive them later.  Thank you, and I'm looking forward to helping cleaning up the current article. This will be a lot easier after next week, as my finals will be over then. Thank you! -Aknorals 14:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 

message: *SOURCE
#Berserk DC game (japanese edition)
#Berserk PS2 game (japanese edition)
#Yamato ART OF WAR figures (inbox products only)
#Toys R US products (Japanese line)
*EVIDENCE
#"Zodd (Human Form)" SRC3
#"Black Swordsman" SRC4
#"Griffith Hawk soldiers" SRC4
#"Griffith" SRC2
#"Zodd" SRC2
#"Ogle" SRC2
Practicing katakana with Puck: Berserk Typing game
feel free to add your own references to this list in order to help wikipedians producing a reliable Berserk character name translation. EnthusiastFRANCE 18:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Official romaji (alphabet use) for Berserk 

message: **First off, nobody is argueing that he doesn't controll the Berserk licence, they are aruging that he didn't specify to use certian transliterations or translations, and that varous companies simply assumed that certian transliterations and translations should be used. -Aknorals 08:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "nobody is argueing that he doesn't controll the Berserk licence" yes you DID several time!! EnthusiastFRANCE 13:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um... no I didn't.... I said that we have no way of knowing Miura said "use this transliteration", and moreover, it seems unlikely that he did. -Aknorals 10:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "This is about the anime" so what? the thread's title is about the license which includes the anime EnthusiastFRANCE 13:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I mean is you are referring to something he said about the Berserk TV series to support your claim that the transliterations found in the PS2 game were requested by Miura.  Just because he made certain corrections on TV series doesn't mean that, for example, he made similar corrections on the PS2 game.  We really have no way of knowing, and we shouldn't make assumptions. -Aknorals 22:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "that he specified certian tranlations or transliterations" Miura states he's got an "overview" which is in the heart of the matter of this topic. EnthusiastFRANCE 13:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did that overview include how his character's name's would be transliterated in the game? How can we be so sure? What I'm saying here is that this quotation doesn't even speak of the topic which you feel is important (transliterations of character names in the ps2 game).  As a matter of fact he doesn't say anything about transliterations.  Indeed, this omission may in fact indicate that he didn't do anything concerning the transliteration. Once again, we really have no way of knowing.  I'm also stating that this quotation has little to do with the topic at hand. -Aknorals 22:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "I think you are misunderstanding what he said in English" you're thoughts are wrong. I've understood Dark Horse deals with the "licensors", which seems to be Hakusensha, but it doesn't mean that Hakusensha has no contact with Miurai overviewing things, which is pretty impossible. About "Knight of Skeleton" you don't know what happened with Miura and how Hakusensha works, maybe naming Knight of Skeleton was Miura's will. EnthusiastFRANCE 13:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't understand the first half of what you said, but about you indicating we have no way of knowing: that's my point exactly! Based on what little evidence we have, it is hard to draw conclusions conserning this matter and remain accurate. -Aknorals 22:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, it means a lot. It not only means that people using the lisence don't deal with Miura at all, but that Hakusensha makes desisions on his behalf.... I'm just going to ignore the personal attack for now.... -Aknorals 13:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  False belief about Miura not controlling the Berserk license 

message: Please try to keep a cool head when responding to comments on this talk page. How about a nice cup of tea?
I know by experience how much the Japanese laws are strict regarding copyrights and trademarks (license). The logical reason for the original name (even including katakana transcription mistakes or awkward translations!) has to be used over another word (even if it's the correct translation!) is a simple trademark issue. Some words are bought -trademarked- with a specific spelling, and this spelling only holds a legitimate copyright. Hence a strict control over the terms used overseas. My understanding. ex:"髑髏の騎士" > sarekoube no kishi > knight of skull(cranium)
***And where did you get this "understanding"?  I mean, your whole argument kind of hinges on this.... -Aknorals 09:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ok, try to get a dictionary and search for trademark! EnthusiastFRANCE 14:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because it is strongly possible, what are "Knight of Skeleton" for "Skeleton Knight Knight", "ogle" for "ogre" and "gorem" for "golem" if not mistranslation/transcription? Now about being "presomptuous" you are a hundred times more presomptuous that i will never be, so watch tour tongue please. EnthusiastFRANCE 14:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "watch your tour(sic) tounge please" Is this a threat? Should I contact an admin?  Also note that "presumptuous" is not a very insulting word (in fact, it was the kindest word I could use to describe the situation), and I have no idea why you got so worked up about it. -Aknorals 13:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: my god you never heard of trademarks and you come here trying to teach me things, questioning every single word i wrote?! get a dictionary buddy! About which wikipedia should use, assuming you are producing "the best translation" is pretty presomptuous of you (no big surprise), personally i'm stuck with the official translation, since Wikipedia is not based on original sources but instead on official, verifiable ones, as you can see: Wikipedia:No original research EnthusiastFRANCE 14:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, laws conserning things such as trademarks and copyright can vary widly by country, and I don't know how a simple dictionary definition would help at all...  and as for WP:NOR, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, because this is a style issue -Aknorals 13:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "why would Miura specify " and why not?! (since it's an official product). "I highly doubt that there is enough widespread understanding of the French language in Japan to even make that choice" that makes you even more presomptuous (which is the main weakness in your logic ^^). I'm sorry to tell, but i don't care at all about "English speaking fans" thinks of Gurunberd since Berserk was introduced in Europe and traduced in French and Italian (which are not so called-english natives as you probably know) a decade before being translated in your native English ^^. Now considering facts not personal (or fan) thoughts, 1:オーグル is clearly katakana for french "ogre" (absolutely not your english ogre which is "OGGA"/オーガ), of course this can't be a katakana mistranscription since the katakana for troll is トロール. 2:"Guruberd" 's a wrong transcription (it lacks the "N" which is clearly written in the katakana form) since the official spelling is "Gurunberd". As told before, I'm stuck with the Wikipedian way (not using original sources but official ones) EnthusiastFRANCE 15:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "i don't care at all about what 'English speaking fans' thinks of Gurunberd since Berserk was introduced in Europe and traduced(sic) in French and Italian ... a decade before being translated in your native English" First off, I don't know what release dates have to do with it.  Second off, wow, if you don't care about what english speakers think about things... why are you here???  (This is, after all, an english language Encyclopedia.  Also note I don't mean this as a personal attack on your character, I'm just asking a simple question) -Aknorals 13:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no original research here, because I didn't make up "Grunbeld". I've also pointed out, that according to your definition of "offical" (by this you mean paying for the lisence, right?), there is no one single usage of transliterations that all users of the lisence adhere to. -Aknorals 13:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "making "Grunbeld" and "Grunberd" supporters agree on the actual spelling" is a reference to the Wikipedia source policy (as told before). I don't care about fans "comprimise", only official sources and evidences are valuable here.  EnthusiastFRANCE 15:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Once again, WP:NOR Has nothing to do with this topic. -Aknorals 13:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: so why don't you post evidences instead of speaking? This thread was meant for gathering evidence (from official sources) not at all for free speech in the name of the english native fans community or whatever community! EnthusiastFRANCE 15:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "odd" translation was a direct reference (and a quote) to Dark Horse official's statements, HE used "odd" for Knight of Skeleton. EnthusiastFRANCE 14:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "older Art of War stuff says things like "Zoddo", i would like to see these things with my own eyes, so why don't you post evidence instead? this thread was meant for that purpose, and not for a free easy speech like yours or the one of Martisty (BTW i'm still waitin' for your evidence post buddy!). I don't care if you are native english speaker or not since Miura's character being actually "Zodd" or "Zoddo" has nothing to do with english but with japanese katakana (which is about non-japanese words not only english ones) to alphabet as seen in the Puck game i've posted somewhere on this page. EnthusiastFRANCE 14:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You must be new, I was fairly certian that AoW's mispellings of berserk character names was well known and infamous.  Ok, here we go:  Older  statue with "Zoddo" on the front close-up of "Zoddo (human form)" statue They are also rather inconsistent about things:  first check out here Then note what the current AoW english page says(!): still think that Miura keep a strict watch over how people using his lisence put the character's name in roman characters?.  Remember how I said later volumes listed the character as "Isidro"? well check out the "offical" english site for AoW! (another image here)  If these guys can't even spell "Millennium" right are people useing the berserk lisence really reliable sources? -Aknorals 12:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No actually it's not "Gatts" but "Gats", and "Behelit". For you information Miura has produced this official soundtrack CD which was released by VAP TV series video publisher in Japan before you English native dvd and comic books. You can see the "Gats" alpha with your own eyes on the Berserk soundtrack article i've done alone before switching to Cold War articles. EnthusiastFRANCE 14:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could have also have pulled out the CD itself, but I was short on time.  My main point is that older material contains transliterations which are not currently used, and are regarded as strange and mistranslations by people who know Japanese.  If you would perhaps be a bit more patient, I could reference material to show this to you... -Aknorals 22:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miura making translation mistake himself 

message: **Undead, Zodd & Griffith (alphabet) are officially used on the PS2 game hinting the translation is sometimes odd but valuable after all.
SOURCE:Capture from the PS2 game showing the alphabetical "Undead" | Capture from the PS2 game showing the alphabetical "Zodd" | Capture from the PS2 game showing the alphabetical "Griffith"
***Huh? How do correct translations hint that the translation is odd?  It's kind of hard for either the licencer or the people at sammy to fuck up "undead"... especially sense most of the mistransliterations have to do with the letters "l" and "r" -Aknorals 09:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "odd" translation was a direct reference (and a quote) to Dark Horse official's statements, HE used "odd" for Knight of Skeleton. EnthusiastFRANCE 14:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "older Art of War stuff says things like "Zoddo", i would like to see these things with my own eyes, so why don't you post evidence instead? this thread was meant for that purpose, and not for a free easy speech like yours or the one of Martisty (BTW i'm still waitin' for your evidence post buddy!). I don't care if you are native english speaker or not since Miura's character being actually "Zodd" or "Zoddo" has nothing to do with english but with japanese katakana (which is about non-japanese words not only english ones) to alphabet as seen in the Puck game i've posted somewhere on this page. EnthusiastFRANCE 14:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You must be new, I was fairly certian that AoW's mispellings of berserk character names was well known and infamous.  Ok, here we go:  Older  statue with "Zoddo" on the front close-up of "Zoddo (human form)" statue They are also rather inconsistent about things:  first check out here Then note what the current AoW english page says(!): still think that Miura keep a strict watch over how people using his lisence put the character's name in roman characters?.  Remember how I said later volumes listed the character as "Isidro"? well check out the "offical" english site for AoW! (another image here)  If these guys can't even spell "Millennium" right are people useing the berserk lisence really reliable sources? -Aknorals 12:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No actually it's not "Gatts" but "Gats", and "Behelit". For you information Miura has produced this official soundtrack CD which was released by VAP TV series video publisher in Japan before you English native dvd and comic books. You can see the "Gats" alpha with your own eyes on the Berserk soundtrack article i've done alone before switching to Cold War articles. EnthusiastFRANCE 14:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I could have also have pulled out the CD itself, but I was short on time.  My main point is that older material contains transliterations which are not currently used, and are regarded as strange and mistranslations by people who know Japanese.  If you would perhaps be a bit more patient, I could reference material to show this to you... -Aknorals 22:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Orthodox translation

message: *Thank you Aknorals for holding down the fort against this particular user iwith your level-headed objective viewpoint. Your commone sense is a beacon in this endlessly pointless debate started by someone who has shown an obvious lack of knowledge on Miura's work. As a reward, here's the OFFICIAL'English romanization straight from Miura's Japanese manga volumes. Vol. 27, Vol. 29, Vol. 30. I didn't bother with vol. 28, as it just repeats vol. 27.  As you can all see, it's not "Gats" but "Guts." And for Farnese's family name in Japanese, here you go "buddy": Faruneze do Vandimion. I hope this puts this argument to an end.These spellings are the one Art of War is supposed to follow (Zoddo -> Zodd), though they still make mistakes ("Schierk" & "Ishidro" on the English AOW site). Martisty 07:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence of Official Transliteration of Berserk characters from the JPN manga

message: The french is also used over the english with the "Charles" character as confirmed by the official katakana spelling "チャールル" (w/its mute "S") over the english "Charles" ending with a "Z" sound hence the different katakana "チャールズ".
SOURCE:Capture from the PS2 game official site showing the katakana "Charles" チャールル
EnthusiastFRANCE 16:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who said Charles was uncommon? I only said both English and French Charles were written the same way but with a different pronunciation. Do you mean the English Charles is pronunced with a mute "S" just like in French, so why different チャールル or チャールズ katakana? I'm not confusing Carl/Karl with Charles in any way! BTW, katakana for "Charles" (w/mute S) is チャールル, while katakana for "Carl" is カルル. By the way don't you have stupid comment about "Balzac" too? I'm suprised you didn't pointed anything about this. EnthusiastFRANCE 14:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Who said Charles was uncommon?" Sorry, your sentence kind of meandered, and I misunderstood your english there.  -Aknorals 10:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "By the way don't you have stupid comment about "Balzac" too?" Wow... just... wow... -Aknorals 10:58, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: French spelling used over the English one

message: I'm getting bored with a few people here spending hours (and making me waste my own precious time answering to dumb free talk questions, see Wikipedia:No original research) on the Discussion and doing nothing new in the Article where there are so many stuff to do. I remember the same person saying "it's to much work to do right now"... so I would ask these persons to save their time for the actual Article where there are many stuff that needs to be enhanced or created. Personaly i've done the Anime OST, PS2 game OST, DC game OST and PS2 game Berserk articles but since a few weeks i've switched to Cold War articles. I'm really into it, so now I spend my remaining free time making searches, reading, watching and listening related stuff for the upcoming articles. It means i have no time to waste on the Berserk talk anymore, if you know what I mean. I'll be probably back to Berserk article later, but now i've more "important" articles to do. Thanks to the working Lady though! It remembers me the group work and the school days, with a few people working hard and the rest of the group talking and doing peanuts! ^^ Good luck and good WORK people!! EnthusiastFRANCE 15:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I'd prefer that instead of adding new 'content' en mass, we cleaned up and organised the current article.  Additionaly, I for one don't think it's good to constantly make massive edits without discussing these edits beforehand. -Aknorals 10:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "massive edits" can always be edited later, this is the wiki basic principle everyone agreed here, including me. Cleaning is part of the work, i'm never against when it comes to enhance things. EnthusiastFRANCE 17:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "It remembers me the group work and the school days, with a few people working hard and the rest of the group talking and doing peanuts!" Oh, nice job avoiding personal insults there. -_- Besides, not everyone has a lot of free time, and it's rather rude of you to imply that just because I have less free time, that I'm somehow "lazy".  I'd like to think that the edits I do make (mostly linking to other articles) are rather important to Wikipdia as a whole. -Aknorals 10:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "not everyone has a lot of free time" of course, but everyone can take it over week-ends and holidays, like i do. "it's rather rude of you" maybe but it's just i'm getting upset with wasting time on the talk when this precious time could be used on more useful things such as "linking to other articles", adding general infos, or creating new articles. evidences have not been posted yet, but as trolling will get us anywhere, i'll not bother about flaming users anymore.EnthusiastFRANCE 17:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "I'd rather they be left out completely" thank you! how sweet of you, that mean my translations are completely wrong and implies that YOU knows the good ones... but that you don't want to write them ("check it and correct the mistakes i've made")!! = pff! easy speaking and lies. Moreover if "Miura has confirmed" something why don't you post some scans or your sources. I'd rather you'd have said nothing instead of writing such bullshits and that you made new things for the articles instead of being all speak. It's curious to notice how the english article has not changed since the last time i've worked on it while there are many new stuff to do! EnthusiastFRANCE 15:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, you're out of the loop.  Berserk volumes 27 and up have a two page characer section at the beginning where the katakana is written, followed by the the character's name in roman characters (not "alphabet", as not all alphabets are based on the roman characters), followed by a short summary in japanese about that character. A picture (of each character) is also listed.  Pick up 27-30 if you don't belive us. I don't have book 27 on hand, so here's 28 and up:  book 28 character names (i'm assuming you know the katakana by now, so I won't list it):  Guts, Puck, Casca, Farnese, Isidro, Serpico, Schierke, Griffith, and Zodd.  Volume 29 list the same, only Sonia is the last character listed instead of Zodd. Volume 30 lists Roderick as the last character. -Aknorals 12:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Above user has been blocked, and is using many sockpuppets to attack me, as well as dammage the main article's quality.  He apparently got caught when messing with the wrong group of articles: cold war stuff... yeah, lot of admins there dude. -Aknorals 09:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stop being all talk and a bit more action please !

message: There are plenty of religious references appearing in Berserk from the "Golden Age" to the "Mandragora" (Berserk game) to the "Beherit" and "Samson". Does anyone would like to work a short section dedicated to this? EnthusiastFRANCE 15:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "I'd rather they be left out completely" thank you! how sweet of you, that mean my translations are completely wrong and implies that YOU knows the good ones... but that you don't want to write them ("check it and correct the mistakes i've made")!! = pff! easy speaking and lies. Moreover if "Miura has confirmed" something why don't you post some scans or your sources. I'd rather you'd have said nothing instead of writing such bullshits and that you made new things for the articles instead of being all speak. It's curious to notice how the english article has not changed since the last time i've worked on it while there are many new stuff to do! EnthusiastFRANCE 15:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, you're out of the loop.  Berserk volumes 27 and up have a two page characer section at the beginning where the katakana is written, followed by the the character's name in roman characters (not "alphabet", as not all alphabets are based on the roman characters), followed by a short summary in japanese about that character. A picture (of each character) is also listed.  Pick up 27-30 if you don't belive us. I don't have book 27 on hand, so here's 28 and up:  book 28 character names (i'm assuming you know the katakana by now, so I won't list it):  Guts, Puck, Casca, Farnese, Isidro, Serpico, Schierke, Griffith, and Zodd.  Volume 29 list the same, only Sonia is the last character listed instead of Zodd. Volume 30 lists Roderick as the last character. -Aknorals 12:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anyone for a Biblic themes section? ^^ 

message: The following is from another thead where a sockpuppet of a blocked user insulted me... it's only being kept because some person wouldn't let me remove a vandal/troll's sockpuppetry for some odd reason.  Note I am supposed to somehow be insulted by this... not sure how. -Aknorals 13:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Above user has been blocked, and is using many sockpuppets to attack me, as well as dammage the main article's quality.  He apparently got caught when messing with the wrong group of articles: cold war stuff... yeah, lot of admins there dude. -Aknorals 09:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal Attacks from a sockpuppet of a blocked user