Talk:Colonialism/Archive 1

message: The idea of merging this article with the Colony and Colonization articles has been proposed and discussed at length.  These discussions have been archived at Talk:Colonialism/Proposed Merges.  They have also been retained in this Talk Page for the time being but may eventually be archived as time goes on.
If you wish to propose a merger with the Colony and Colonization articles, please read those discussions before making your proposal.  The decision was made with only four votes so it is plausible that the consensus may change.  However, we would appreciate it if you familiarize yourself with the arguments for and against the merger before initiating a new proposal.
--Richard 16:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Merges 

message: The map has many errors. It is supposed to be a map of 1945, but still shows Japan as having its colonial empire of 1939 when by 1945 Japan had lost its empire. Also it shows all of Sakhalin Island as part of Japan's colonial empire and this was not the case (only in 1925 did Japan control all of the island). The map also shows Libya as an Italian colony in 1945 when it was a joint British-French trusteeship. Italian Somaliland should also be coloured British since it was handed over to British control from 1945-1950 and only in 1950 returned to the Italians. I've also noticed that the map does not colour in the Dominions as colonies (which is understandable, as by 1945 they were not really considered "colonies"), but a number of the Dominions were themselves colonizers: Australia in New Guinea and Nauru, New Zealand in Samoa, the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau and Nauru and South Africa in South-west Africa.
*With some diffidence and only partial success I've uploaded a version of the map with some corrections. I tend to agree that 1914 is perhaps a more relevent milestone Humansdorpie 10:42, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map Errors 

message: The article on John III of Portugal is currently nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Support the article with your vote or comment on the nomination.--Fenice 09:13, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Improvement drive

message: can someone please lay out for me the similarities and differences between Colonialism and Imperialism? thanks, Kingturtle 06:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  colonialism / imperialism 

message: I don't think a single map can possibly do justice to this topic. What we ought to have are a series of diachronic maps showing the various colonized territories (and their dates) for each nation in question. We could make one section for each of the ten nations listed in the template at the bottom of the article in which we briefly describe the extent and policies of the colonizing powers, with "main article" links underneath the headings. This anachronous map of the British Empire is a good example of what I'm talking about. --Peter Farago 20:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map(s) 

message: Architecture of Africa is currently nominated on Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive. Come to this page and support it with your vote. Help us improve this article to featured status.--Fenice 08:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive]]

message: This is likely to prove to be an unpopular viewpoint here, but has anyone given consideration to posting examples of Islamic colonization to provide a more balanced point of view for this article which seems to focus exclusively on European colonialism?  Examples of Islamic and other non-European colonization throughout history and  up to and including the present day would be appreciated by many. -- Planders 01:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this article could do with a history of colonialism section, beginning with Greco-Roman colonialism.  My expertise, if it can be called that, does not extend to ancient times though.  Gsd2000 16:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unpopular viewpoint? Islamic colonization 

message: :So yes, back on point. "What is colonialism, above and beyond the act or policy of establishing and maintaining colonies?" Colonialism is an attitude of mind and a set of assumptions conquerors impose on the conquered (reinforced by but not limited to direct power). Further! "Colonialism" is an academic discourse that has arisen since the inter-war period to analyze that attitude of mind and its effects. You don't want to muddy the waters with post-colonialism?... Well, you can't not. We can't sit here and talk about colonialism while ignoring post-colonialism, which has hijacked a large part of the arts academy. In that vein...you started this thread with a merge idea but you also "sectionized" and expanded the article. I like the latter idea! The page should be expanded and clarified further, not merged. A simple way to think of it: "colony" is a concrete noun while "colonialism" is an abstract one and they denote related but distinct topics. Merging the two is a disservice to Wiki readers. Marskell 23:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are confusing the study of the subject and the subject itself.  The suffix -ism comes from the Greek noun suffix -ismos and means “the act, state, or theory of” the word it is appended to (in this case, colonial, or "Of, relating to, possessing, or inhabiting a colony or colonies").  This maps neatly onto my definition of colonial-ism as the "act or policy of establishing and maintaining colonies".  That's what colonialism is.  It's strange because you began by arbitrarily restricting the definition of "colonialism" to the establishment of settler colonies, and here you are now suggesting it is also a "state of mind" (what state of mind exactly - triumphant or guilty colonizers, or welcoming or repressed colonized?), a "set of assumptions conquerors impose on the conquered" (I'm not sure how one "imposes" assumptions on others, incidentally), and an "academic discourse that has arisen since the inter-war period to analyse...." (people were analysing this long before then - try reading Bartolome de las Casas'  - "the first and fiercest critic of Spanish colonialism in the New World" - A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies, written in 1542).  Tell me, if you are a colonialist, what does that mean in your book?  What does the "history of colonialism" refer to - a history of the act or policy of establishing and maintaining colonies, or a history of an academic discourse that has arisen since the inter-war period to analyze an attitude of mind and its effects"?  Gsd2000 00:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Fair arguments, although I do think that you are again blurring the study of the subject and the subject itself.  The "theory" of colonialism does not equate to the study of colonialism any more than the communist theories equate to the study of communist theories.  If you are a colonialist you are someone that ascribes to colonialism, not part of an academic movement.  FYI - the Encarta encyclopaedia lumps the two together, whilst Britannica keeps them separate.  You have to agree that if Encarta sees fit to merge the two, then it is at least a notion that we in Wikipedia can entertain, so I would be interested to hear others' opinions (as well as yours).  Gsd2000 12:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I was hammering away at your claim that "conventionally", for "nine out of ten people", and for your interpretation of the dictionary definitions you quoted, colonies equals settler colonies. Gsd2000 12:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I think (I hope!), we're close to seeing that we're not really in disagreement about definitions. In "(my) interpretation of the dictionary definitions (I) quoted, colonies equals settler colonies." Once more (in bold italics no less!): I do not believe that colony exclusively equals settlers. I have not said that. I am concerned that Wiki-readers may "conventionally" assume that idea, and that we should clarify it. If I made a mistake here, it was assuming initially that you were glossing in favour of colony because you wanted to emphasize colony = settlers, when indeed we are both commenting against that idea. Marskell 21:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge-3

message: *Without making a close and thourough reading all the forgoing tonight, let me add here that the Colony==Settlers arguement is empty and has been settled long ago by a whole shit load of several centuries of texts by qualified experts in history and the social sciences.  i.e. it is a matter of idioms, in particular technical idioms in some very exacting scholarly fields and not of dictionary definitions, which are a collection of local language conventions always years behind the practice (usages) of the specific people it is written to serve and reflect. See some of the articles on language, but that whole line of arguement is specious and flys in the face of technical usage. For Pete's sake, people haven't been able to agree on proper spellings, all for numerous attempts at establishing a uniform widely accepted spelling standard, and you expect an exact dictionary definition, in the face of what experts decide sitting in their respective commissions on what terms to apply to their fields to settle a technical matter over the experts and their accepted usages?  
The idea of combining these two articles has got to take those several techical distinctions into account for it is not our place here on wikipedia to tell the scholars how to do their jobs, but to collate, organize and report on what they publish; and thus, equating the two terms would in my experience be violating WP:NOR— as would requiring a some arbitrarily size of settlement for a country practising mercantilism and colonialism to have a valid colony by some cooked up (original research) formula— Both would be an untenable fringe theory, or linguistic stretch by misapplying terms too literally, cause that ain't the way it's discussed and defined. The proper idiomatic terms are Colony, and colonialism, but the one is a place usually obtained under the push from the other (the other way is by warfare), a belief system part of the economic theory of merchantilism.
 
*The French built a colonial empire both superior too and larger than the British (late starters) without much settler involvement whatever. India was the called the Jewel of the Orient, and it was a diadem in the French crown under Richelieu and Mazarin; only to later become the Crown Jewel of the British Empire because of conquest. Like the Dutch and Portugese, neither nation sent shoals of settlers half-way around the world, but only token populations, and those entities were refered to then and still are, as colonies. As in most things, Money was the key, and the spice trade and silk trade were the reward of holding that divided land. But French India was far larger and stronger than the British holdings, until the colonies became a prize of war.
It wasn't fashionable to leave France, the largest, richest, most powerful, most prestigious, and most populous nation in Europe to settle anywhere; same for the prosperous Netherlands, though it can be argued they were themselves a colony of Spain. The unusually large numbers of setters to North America generally had ulterior motives— religious persecution and lack of religious freedoms, or the promise of lands, not tied into ancient fuedal estates where one had to be beholdened to a landlord class of nobles and wealthy merchants. The Spanish did not export large bodies of people, and neither did the Porteguese. Nonetheless, they were all of them staunch believers in Merchantilism and did everything they could from the mid-1400's—early-1500's to expand and establish colonies, however thinly populated, excepting the British, who eventually had to play a lot of catch up ball; in the early days of the colonialism, they weren't even fielding a team. 
Thus the establishment of New France and French India were both two of the largest terratorial land grabs under colonialism and quite successfully lucreative until the French, hampered by an absolutist officer class gradually lost their naval supremacy, then their parity  to the Dutch and British, before, and then, especially during the Seven Years War to the British, who started the era as a third rate power and ended up as a de facto superpower. But that took decades to happen, nearly a century, and four wars with the Dutch and several major one's with the French and Spanish, and it happened because the British believed in colonialism daughter of mercantilism as the necessary route to national strength, so they continued investing in fleet units, while the other countries counted their coin. The French suffered a further military debacle in the Battle of the Nile, loosing most of their ready fleet, and causing Napoleon Boneparte to abandon plans to force a land route and survey a canal through the Suez in 1798 for even the egalitarian French Revolutionaries running that sorry excuse for a government believed in merchantilism and therefore colonialism. The French goal was to re-conquer the lost Jewel of the Orient-- India.
I hope that helps you all get 'off the dime' and settle on the real question— is a 'place class discriptor' equatable to a 'sociopolitical philosophy'. My vote is below. 
Best wishes to all. <B>Fra</B>nkB 03:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thankyou for your thoughts, but it is a bit cheeky, writing an essay yourself and expecting others to read it but "without making a close and thourough reading all the forgoing"!  :-) If you are going to contribute to the debate, you should at least (pretend to) understand it thus far, before offering your own opinions.  We did actually resolve that discussion, colony == settlers.  Back on topic: As I said above, Encarta has a combined article for the two, so at least one other encyclopaedia considers it acceptable.  The main reason I suggested a merge is because there is duplication in the articles.  Colony absolutely does not equal colonialism, but one can quite easily fold discussion of the former into the latter, and it would not be misleading to do so.  The only reason for opposing it that I can see is if you are a semantic purist, but then - encyclopaedias ain't dictionaries.  Gsd2000 11:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

text: *Sorry if it came off cheeky—time was pressing, but with an electronic format and without the overhead of setup and printing costs, when it comes to matters factual, topical, or such I tend to be inclusionist and counter-mergist. This is directly in line with WP:Btw and also in-line with the Foundation guideline goal of having an article title for each article title in all other encyclopedias, so that I essentially view such hair splitting as counter-productive. Duplication is a good thing—repetition and redundancy is the foundation and cornerstone of education. So what if the two have overlap. We are trying for a comprehensive recap of most all human knowledge, not to avoid titles that a given reader might search for. In a nutshell, when we merge too often, we cut down the utility of the encyclopedia as a whole as we have no way to predict what thought process, and hence word sequence drives a 'user-non-editor' (i.e. customer) to define whatever search string he/she picks. I try to keep in mind that the article hopping  reader is most likely to be aged 9-17, or perhaps the even larger population of people sans university education who are trying to establish a base level of crystalized knowledge—as opposed to ones that have had at least some training in researching in a set of college prep High School courses or higher education experiences. In sum, I'd rather their (perhaps) less optimally technical search string be rewarded with knowledge, even if it is overlapped by a better article, than have a total miss which may damp their momentary enthusiasm to pursue what might have been a near-whimsical exploration. Nuff said. <B>Fra</B>nkB 14:35, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

text: *BTW-Thanks for calling that little dash of text an essay... It was much more spontaneous and far less time consuming than THAT! <B>Fra</B>nkB 14:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh heh - well, you labelled it a "lecture" yourself! :-)  Fair points.  If you remove the merge suggestion I would not offer any objection to that.  (I was the one that put it in). Gsd2000 23:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge-4 A small lecture

message: This article attempts to discuss the general phenomenon of colonialism and then said "advocates point out at economic and political infrastructures leading to modernization & democracy", while "critics argue that there was no economic development and that even today there is still neocolonialism" (to go quickly). Before discussing the debate on colonialism, I think we should first separate different colonies in different sections. What point is there in saying "colonialism was good or bad" if we don't even know if we're refering to the US or Africa? Second, the opposition itself between advocates & critics is artificial. The huge majority of historians consider that 19th century colonialism involve a form of racism, which is definitely not a good point, but they also point out at technical achievements. So, even (historian) advocates of colonialism agree, in this case, that there was a form of racism in it. This should'nt be overviewed. Third, the argument about "modernization & democracy" is yet another argument, that should be put in a specific place (it is the argument that economic growth brings about democracy, which is a whole debate which should have a separate article if it hasn't already). Finally, although some critics do say that economic domination is still on-going, some critics will agree with advocates of colonialism in saying that they have seen economic growth. They just don't think this growth brought about democracy, and they argue that it wasn't worth the price. As the opposition is structured now, it seems that critics don't believe in the fact that roads and railroads were made, while advocates don't see any form of racism in 19th century colonialism. I therefore think we should make different subsections for different types of colonialism (I've seen that Andalucia in Spain is linked to here, but I doubt that we're talking about this Arab rule of Spain when we deal about the pros & cons of colonialism. Even if we where, it would be wrong, because it is a totally different historic phenomenon from, let's say, the 19th century French or German empire.) Lapaz 15:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different types of colonialism and pros & cons of it 

message: Although I don't endorse the merge with colonies, because I think this could make another article and design another reality, I do think colonisation should be merged here (one is a verb, while the other is a noun, but they refer to the same reality). Is there any support for that move? Lapaz 16:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Absolutely disagree.  Colonialism is absolutely not equal to colonisation.  Welsh folks colonised Patagonia, but that was not Welsh colonialism.  ps both colonialism and colonisation are nouns.  Gsd2000 18:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: pps dicdefs: COLONIALISM - A policy by which a nation maintains or extends its control over foreign dependencies/exploitation by a stronger country of weaker one; the use of the weaker country's resources to strengthen and enrich the stronger country; COLONISATION - the act of colonizing; the establishment of colonies; "the British colonization of America".  Gsd2000 20:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right. So maybe the actual merge should be between colonies and colonisation? Lapaz 01:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, reading again, seem you think it's wasn't "Welsh colonialism", that is, colonialism supported by the Welsh state. But then, shouldn't this example be put in Colonies? Furthermore, does colonialism always, in all cases, refers only to state? I mean, sure colonialism is related to state and imperialism and so on, but state are made of people... And I'm sure that if enough Welsh people had gone out there in the cold this would have interested their state, wouldn't it? In other words, your only saying that the Welsh had a settler colonie down there. So why wouldn't that be a form of colonialism? Before being imperialism (and "imperialism" is a specific concept), colonialism is also a movement of emigration from Europe. In other words, you are defining a priori what is and what is not colonialism. But why would we all agree with your definition? Better than a dictionnary, I think in this case what we need is definitions from historians... Lapaz 02:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: More info here Welsh settlement in Argentina.  FYI Wales isn't (and wasn't at the time) a state - it's a principality of a kingdom.  The Welsh settlers colonized an area, but this was in the existing state of Argentina.  I'm also reminded of a colony of Germans in Venezuela that was featured on BBC News recently and that one in Chile set up by fleeing Nazis.  These colonies were not answerable to a metropole that had dispatched the settlers - they were/are answerable to the nation in which the "colonists" reside.  I guess another analogy is Chinese emigration - there are large communities of Chinese around the world - this pattern of emigration has been occurring for hundreds of years but it was never sanctioned by the Chinese authorities - indeed, it was banned at one point.  We shouldn't confuse the act of colonisation with the policy of colonialism.  Gsd2000 04:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll read carefully this, but anyway, they are a lot of various colonies in South America, most notably German, but also French, Welsh as you point out, etc. That one in Chile is called Colonia Dignidad. However, since I've seen on your user page that you have a rather extensive bibliography on colonialism, would you report yourself to the first chapter of the part on imperialism in Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism? Arendt explains the opposition between nation-states and imperialism, which was an opposition between politics & economics. I'm pointing out to that, because Arendt thus explains that colonialism was an economic movement (what someone kind of strangely called corporate colonialism, although I'd also propose to merge that here, because it's not at all separate from ordinary colonialism), before even being state imperialism. Of course there is various colonies in the world, but before we enter historic debates, I think we really should ask ourselves on the legitimity of having ten articles describing the same stuff. Again, this is not a dictionnary. This article about Welsh settlement in Argentina would be perfect, I think, in the "See also" (or in maintext) of the Colonies article, rather than on colonisation. Again, I don't know you, but I'm sure most people understand the same historic phenomenon when talking about "colonisation" and "colonialism". Arguing on historical grounds, then I'll argue that this Welsh settlement in Argentina was part of the global colonisation historical movement, but that for various reasons, it didn't lead to a state under the dependency of the UK. It could have though, if things had happened differently. I more or less agree with your distinction between the very common act of colonisation and the policy of colonialism (although it surely could be discussed), but I think that what you mean by this type of "colonisation" would be better treated in the "colonies" article. After all, the point is not in arguing endlessly, because I'm sure we can argue endlessly on definitions, but just to improve the navigability of Wikipedia. Then we can always put a disclaimer on top of the page (this article doesn't refer to ...) Lapaz 19:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Last point. If there really is so "huge a difference" (sic) between colonisation and "colonialism", how come we all agree to call decolonization the movement that tried to put an end to colonialism? I don't think that I need a dictionnary to show you that "decolonization" should be the reverse of "colonisation", do I ? Lapaz 02:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Last last! Would you also kindly have a nice look at colonisation. Doesn't it seem to you that contents on this page and on that page interfere together? Of course, we haven't yet put here a section about "space colonialism", but since we're discussing "19th century colonialism", and that we will inevitably discuss the European colonization of America, surely someone will add here Roman colonies, and so... To not merge that will just duplicate contents, because contents over there are perfectly appropriate here. Lapaz 02:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Hello! Is it possible to have THIRD PARTY OPINION? I really think the merge is justified and necessary in order to avoid content forking, but Gsd2000 seems really opposed to it. Lapaz 12:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you open a request for comment? Gsd2000 23:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge with [[colonisation]] (comments?) 

message: There is a caption in this article that describes Banania as a propaganda method. Banania is a milk chocolate drink, not propaganda. While the depiction of the negro is understandably inacurate and acurately depicts the rascist ideologies of the time, the wrapper of the container was designed to make it seem exotic in an attempt to entice people to buy it, it was not necessarily an attempt to make people think of negros negatively.
While the depiction seems to be related with the French colonial empire, it seems to me that it is a Belgian commercial: the text is in two languages French and Dutch (French: 'Y a bon Banania' = 'there is good Banania', Dutch: 'Het beste ontbyt' = 'The best breakfast'). There is only one country in the world where both French and Dutch are spoken, and this is Belgium.
Have you heard of King Leopold and the Belgian Congo? The 'negro' used to make an item appear exotic does not serve that purpose alone, in a wider sense it reinforces the prevelent social discourse of the era.139.133.7.37 11:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Banania propaganda? 

message: I propose to merge corporate colonialism here, it won't be much work & I think it is a POV fork: we can't legitimately distinguish "state" & "corporate colonialism", all colonial studies show that the two are intrinsecally (?) mixed together, and that indeed "corporate colonialism" is one of the main reason behind the New Imperialism period, and of course one of the main factor of modern neocolonialism. Any comments? Lapaz 12:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Lapaz 11:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge [[corporate colonialism]] here 

message: Is this an important distinction to make?  As far as the Spaniards and most of Europe was concerned, they didn't know about the Americas.  Yes, maybe the Vikings knew about it but they were a different culture in a different time.  AFAIK, there was little exchange of information between them and the Europe of the 15th century.
--Richard 00:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Mandar Pips is right. Although the term "discovery" may be used, it is widely contested and historically false for various reasons. However, in order to prevent future reversal of it, I think that it should be explained. If you can add some info on that Mandar, that would be welcome ! Lapaz 13:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  discovery vs. rediscovery 

message: There was a major heading (==European colonization of the Americas==) and a bunch of subheadings underneath.  In scanning the article, it became clear that the appropriate major heading was "History of colonialism" with "European colonialism of the Americas" being the first subheading.
However, there is a problem in that the subsections are inconsistent.  Most of the History section is about European colonialism with only a subsection about Japanese imperialism.  Then there is a section about the French colonial empire and no similar sections about the British, Spanish, Dutch and even American colonial systems.
Look, we should either talk about who the colonial power was or where their colonial empire was.  Mixing both together leads to the current mess.  Thus, it would work great to have the following subheadings:
* British colonialism
* French colonialism
.
.
.
* Japanese imperialism
or, as an alternative,
* Colonialism in the Americas
* Colonialism in Africa
.
.
.
* Colonialism in Asia
I prefer the first approach but mixing the two approaches is just crazy-making.
--Richard 03:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, it is quite a mess. Look, I've recently did a lot of edits the article was really short and didn't say much when I first had a look (in December), and four months later almost no real progress had be done. This is a good question you pose about this "mixing the two approaches", we really ought to think about it and choose the best solution. As you point out, a lot more has been done on France, that's because I'm more familiar with its history. Globally, we also have to distinguish two main waves of European colonialism, the one that started with the "discovery" of the "New World", and New Imperialism starting in the 1860s. Now, concerning if we choose geographic approaches or more political-based approaches (depending on the states), both have good arguments for them. Geography is important: the Caribbean has a global cultural and historical unity which has consequences to this day (look at Haiti's situation today). Henceforth, the Caribbean is not Asia. However, as Hannah Arendt points out, and which is a common analyze of historians, there are important differences between the two rival "colonization models", the British & the French one (indirect rule vs. assimilation). I think that it is a good idea to keep the first section which has been done by User Gsd distinguishing various types of colonialism. Although mixing various approaches may be a bit confusing, it would surely be the most "rich" analyze, showing various aspects of the same phenomenon. We mustn't be scared of the lenght of the article: this is supposed to be the main article on colonialism, thus with a global dimension. I think, however, that it should include only the specific phenomenon of European imperialism, starting from the (re)discovery of the Americas (Roman colonies and space colonization are addressed in the colonization article, and it would be really confusing to mix such phenomenons together). So, on the basis that here we speak about European imperialism, the global dimension of it should be treated, dividing it in three main parts: the first wave of colonization (starting 15-16th century), the second wave (New Imperialism, 1860s and on, although in some cases, such as in Algeria it started as soon as the 1830s), and the third wave, which overlaps with the second, that is the decolonization (I say overlap, because the Indian National Congress, one of the first national liberation party, was founded as early as 1885, in the middle of the Scramble for Africa). To conclude, I don't know what others users think, but although mixing too much the two approaches will be confusing, I think we may proceed on a case-specific approach: again, it is difficult to legitimate separating the Caribbean in the various empires, the colonization there has been globally the same (Atlantic slave trade, sugar plantations, and common geographical-cultural area to this day), while we do have to point out the differences between the British & the French model. The aim of this article, although it may enter in too many details right now (concerning the French colonial empire, I don't know — let's not forget that this a try, and that others sections are supposed to be improved also), is thus giving a general view of it, with  articles in subsection. See Wikipedia:Guide to layout#If a section is a summary of another article, that may help us. I hope you contribute! Lapaz 14:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe the passage on Hannah Arendt's analysis, which is now in the "European colonization of the Americas" subsection, should be moved to "types of colonialism"? Lapaz 14:16, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Concerning geographical vs politic-based approach, the Middle-East is like the Caribbean examples: we can't cut Lebanon and Palestine in two just because one was under British mandate and the other under French mandate! Lapaz 15:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I really think we can't avoid mixing both approaches, it would be too limiting and arbitrary to choose one over the other. As long as we have specific sub-articles to deal with this problem, we should be able to overcome it. Lapaz 15:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure of this article is inconsistent 

message: Lapaz, I think we are starting to work off "the same sheet of music" now.  You may have interpreted my "way too long" comment as intended to delete content whereas now you have come to see that my focus is on adding content but in subsidiary articles.  I will discuss the specific organizational ideas that you mentioned at a later time.  For now, let's talk general principles.
I do have some experience doing this kind of stuff in Wikipedia.  One of my first projects as a Wiki editor was splitting off Adaptation to global warming from Mitigation of global warming.  My focus has been on the articles Mitigation of global warming and Adaptation to global warming with some work on Effects of global warming.  
The other (and more major) project has been working on reorganizing the articles related to the Aztec civilization.  I have worked with other editors to organize those articles and to create navigation templates.  One other editor (User:Pietdesomeres) has been very helpful and knows more about templates than I do.  If we need to, we might be able to call on him as a resource.
Curiously, Piet and I actually met while working on the Hernan Cortes article.  Of course, as we migrated towards the Aztec articles, we have joined forces with two other editors who were already working on the Aztec article.
I can't tell you all the stuff that we've done to Aztec-related articles in the past couple months but, suffice it to say, the series of Aztec-related articles is much improved and much better organized now than it was when we started.  In fact, we are currently trying to push Aztec to be a featured article.
Along the way, we have created three templates: Template:Spanish colonization of the Americas, Template:Aztec and Template:Pre-Columbian.  These were originally Piet's creations but I learned from his example and I know how to create a basic template.  I'm just not as good as he is at creating more sophisticated templates (like Template:Pre-Columbian).  It's not rocket science, though.  You can figure out the basics by visiting the template and clicking on "Edit page".
I have also created a couple of WikiProjects (WP:AZTEC and WP:Pre-Columbian).  I think we need a WikiProject for Colonialism.  I'll create one in the next couple days.
There's a lot of work in front of us but I'm up for it if you are.
--Richard 15:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organization of articles related to colonialism 

message: U.S. section deals with U.S. support for Third World juntas, but Soviet support of Idi Amin, Kim Il-Sung, DERG, Gaddaffi, and tons of others goes unmentioned? How hipocritical. And "liberation movement"... what garbage....
:Maybe Cold War is the place to deal with that? Lapaz 22:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Beside, if you do have NPOV information to add, please be bold. Lapaz 22:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hilarious!