Talk:Wheel of the Year/Archive 1

message: Might it not be wiser to move this page to Sabbat (Wicca)? As far as I'm aware, only Wiccans refer to the eight festivals as "sabbats". If there are no objections I shall do so. Dewrad 18:08, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neopaganism? 

message: The Gregorian months and Astrological signs seem to add very little to the article other than words and space. I'm not sure why one would want tables like this, when the dates of the festivals allow you to figure it out easily enough. They're not that easy to read anyway, and a diagram would be better. I suggest just remove these sections and let people look up Zodiac if they want, or else if anyone's really keen they can draw up a nice simple diagram that includes months, zodiacal signs and festivals. Fuzzypeg 14:19, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  May I remove the Gregorian Months and Astrological Signs sections? 

message: I changed this line in the intro "In Paganism all of nature is cyclical" because it seemed overbroad to me.  Such sweeping statements are risky, and I'm uncomfortable letting it stand.  The very term "Wheel of the Year" is primarily/originally a Wiccan one, to the best of my understanding; to assume that all of Paganism (or even NeoPaganism) uses this model is not supported in my experience.
I'm more than happy to be corrected, but until that happens I'd like to keep this as supportable as possible.
Plus, of course, the Paganism=Wicca notion, all too prevalent, is one that irks me, and I struggle to keep it from flourishing whenever I can.
Septegram 20:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paganism vs. Wicca 

message: I notice that Samhain and Lughnasadh have pronunciation notes, but the others are lacking.  I'd update that with appropriate notes if I could, but I don't know how to create the pronunciation annotation.  Imbolc, Beltaine and Mabon are ones which particularly need attention, as Imbolc is (I believe) correctly pronounced "imm-olc" or "imm-olg," I'm told the Gaelic pronunciation for Beltaine is something like "bee-yaw-nee," and I've heard "Mabon" mispronounced "May-bon."  Anyone?
Samhain should probably include the pronunciation "so-ven," too; it's not as common, but it is used.
Septegram 20:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree pronunciation in IPA should be added. Needs a native Irish speaker who also knows IPA to do it. --Nantonos 08:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Reading a bit more of the article I find some totally untrue statements, such as "In Paganism all of nature is cyclical" (see Paganism). This article has been written almost exclusively from a Neopagan perspective, with no explanation that that is the case. Also, most of the key information is repeated in Sabbat (neopaganism), suggesting a merge. My guess is that "Sabbat" is the most generic of the two titles, so that should become the title of the merged article and "Wheel of the Year" be a re-direct. Fuzzypeg 14:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Discussion moved to Talk:Sabbat (neopaganism). Fuzzypeg☻ 06:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major cleanup required - possible merge with [[Sabbat (neopaganism)]] 

message: Sabbats, are not just reffered so as such by Wiccans. Other Neopagan faiths use this terms also.
Also, merging with "Wheel of the year" would not work, as they refer to two different things.
The Wheel of the year, is basically the story of the Goddess and the God, and how the cycle of life happens year after year.
The Sabbats however refers to each individual sabbat, and how the sabbat fits in with the Wheel of the Year. Each Sabbat has a different meaning, and different celevrations are held on each on.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Norfolkdumpling (talk • contribs) 
:Yes, of course Sabbats have greater usage than just within Wicca. The term derives mainly from Wicca though, and most of the symbolism has been adapted from Wiccan sources, so Wicca would probably feature strongly in an article about Sabbats, but it would not exclusively be from a Wiccan perspective.
:I see your point that the wheel of the year is the full cycle, whereas a Sabbat is one spoke — however at the moment both articles cover pretty much the same ground. It's really hard to clearly separate these two ideas so that the two articles don't just repeat each other. I believe it would be easier to have a single article that describes the festivals briefly (remember that they are each more fully described in Imbolc, Samhain, etc.) and also gives an overall picture of how they fit together on a mythological level.
:I'd also like to add a word of caution right now about the "story of the Goddess and the God": there are countless variations of this story, and none of them seem to date back very far. There are various ancient myths that we can look to for comparison, but we can't make these comparisons ourselves, according to Wikipedia's no original research policy — we need to find reliable sources who make these comparisons for us. I think it's going to be a difficult section to write, and it's probably going to end up as a survey of the two or three most well-known versions. Fuzzypeg☻ 21:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please don't merge! 

message: I'll be adding information from my college textbook "A History of Pagan Europe" by Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick; if you do merge the articles please make sure that information gets put in the right place. Thanks Kuronue 15:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Information 

message: Would you like me to add the histories of these holidays based on my college paganism textbooks? I added a little info at Wheel of the Year but this article seems to lack history at all. I'll also be tackling copyediting. Kuronue 15:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't add the histories yet, I could add a nother section for that. I added section headings. The main problem that I found was the tendancy to throw more information that is needed into the article-- for instnance, if someone wanted to learn about the astrological year, they'd be reading Astrology or  Zodiac, not Sabbat. I also deleted things that seemed suspicious or fluffy; if you add them back in, please cite or add an unreferenced tag. Also, where do we get off saying what "most" pagans do? I left such statements in, but, I feel uneasy about our assumptions that all of pagandom follows these exact procedures. Kuronue 15:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: bbc link has moved, its now http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/year.shtml --Yakumo 16:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I've updated it. Fuzzypeg☻ 23:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  links 

message: I don't ever recall Murry creating the sabbats/esbats. All she did was document and string things into something totally inacurate (Old Religion). So I'm putting up a citation needed. If nothing comes up in a month, I'm taking it down. That should be sufficient time. Disinclination 20:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's supposed to mean the modern versions. The actual holidays all were celebrated in one culture or another, but never in a coherant group like they are now. Kuronue 16:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: She didn't create the modern versions either. If someone has to be credited, it would be Gardner. Murray's information was proven inaccurate a long time ago. It's deleted now. Disinclination 20:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Murray 

message: In whatever authority I would have as a 5th degree Fam/Trad and a Norse-Magick Seithmothr & Runester/ or just as a wikiperson, I would like to say this about the proposed merge:
   - It would be good as the Sabbats follow the Wheel of the year,
     and the Wheel of the Year is kept sacred through the Sabbats.
   - It would be bad as they are two different ideas & even schemata at work.
     There should not be the dogma of Inherent Imposition in the Craft.
     SO- I think that there should be a) a edited version as an appendix,
         and/or simply note the facts cleary @ the top and have clear links and
         a full understanding of the connections within the body of the "Sabbat" 
         article text.
My 2 cents~
Jigiggidykadabra!
~Drew Beckett.->[]
:Hi Drew. I'm sorry, I don't understand everything you've written: what do you mean when you say the Wheel and the Sabbats are two different schemata? And what is "the dogma of Inherent Imposition"?
:The "edited version as an appendix": is that an edited version of the Sabbats article as an appendix to the Wheel of the Year article? And I can't actually figure out from your comments, are you saying you're in favour or not in favour of merging the two articles? Sorry if I'm being dense.
:Oh, you can sign your comments easily by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your message. These get turned into name/time/date, like this: Fuzzypeg☻ 20:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: MERGING THE ''WHEEL OF THE YEAR'' WITH 'SABBATS'

message: While prior to the Sabbat merge the Wheel article had flaws, I can't see how the merge has helped this article.  What we have now is badly structured and confusingly written, including redundancies and errors that need to be cut.  The tone also jumps around, and there are numerous unsourced bits.  So I've put the cleanup tag on this until the problems can be fully dealt with.  --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone through and knocked some holes into the article for restructuring. Clearly, the article is a mess and some bold changes are necessary here. If anyone feels the need to restore what I've killed, please keep in mind why I did it. :bloodofox: 14:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Alright, after knocking down several walls and putting a new facade up, this should be at least somewhat more approachable. I've removed the tag. :bloodofox: 15:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: We've managed to whip this into pretty good shape.  Now it needs thorough footnoting, as it currently has none at all.  --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time for footnotes 

message: Someone put the sabbats box in with the wheel thumbnail, and it looked horrible, so i put it all back as was. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brenton.eccles (talk • contribs) 11:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Positively Disgusting 

message: Pretty self explanatory. Any Wicca book I have read only uses the term "moon sabbat" when saying that is what an esbat is. Disinclination 07:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is also no citations in that whole section. I really don't think it is relevant, since sabbats are meant to be solar festivals, not lunar. Disinclination 05:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like maybe it needs to go then.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Perhaps then we could merge this in with other sections, that some groups move the dates to coincide with certain solar dates and certain lunar dates (like the full moon or the new moon, etc)? If some groups do do this, I think it should remain. Just not as its own section. It's not really in the majority, either, it seems. Disinclination 19:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A "Moon Sabbat" is an Esbat. 

message: I am not sure that Litha was invented by Aidan Kelly; it is the Anglo-Saxon name for Midsummer, I thought?  Tolkien refers to Aerre Lithe (before midsummer) in one of the Appendices to Lord of the Rings.  --yewtree 13:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the term 'Litha' 

message: Since the last overhaul on this that I was involved with, I see a certain amount of Neopaganism defaulting to Wicca has crept back in.  So, I'm clarifying a few things, more along the lines of what was here after that cleanup.  I'm also moving the Moon Sabbats thing here to the talk page, as that has been waiting on a source for many, many months. 
 Dates of Moon Sabbats
Imbolc: 	new, crescent, 1st quarter
Beltane:	1st quarter, gibbous, full moon
Lammas: 	full, disseminating, 3rd quarter
Samhain:	3rd quarter, balsamic, new
 
Additionally, there's still a lot of OR in this article.  Though a lot of it is "common knowledge", there really needs to be more sourcing.  I've held off on flagging it, but we have whole sections that are without even a single source. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: More Cleanup

message: It's just  plain silly that 'fire festival' defaults to 'Wheel of the Year'. I was looking for something about Japan's Katsuyama Sagicho and ended up here in this very Euro article. Alpheus (talk) 04:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed - much better to have a disambiguation page that leads to both. Set one up, or I'll do so myself if I can find the article you mention! Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 08:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fire festivals

message: I've done a little rearranging so that newfangled names like Mabon and Litha aren't necessarily the first names listed. I've tried to follow the namings given in authoritative sources describing traditional Wicca, such as the Farrars' books, Doreen Valiente and so on. Fuzzypeg★ 01:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sabbat names 

message: I'm sorry guys but a 172 word entry wedged into the lead section of the article attempting to justify/rationalize so-called "Christian Wiccans"?
The article is about the Neopagan Wheel of the Year, not a soapbox for promoting a tiny population of a subsection of Neopaganism that by many NP folks' estimation is as legitiamte a classifcation as "Nazi Jews", "Black Klansmen", or "Republican Liberals". I'm pulling it and leaving the text below:
PULLED: "In some instances Christian Wiccans, also called 'Celtic Christians'(termed as adherants of Celtic Christianity ) utilize these festivals and their framework, while adhering to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible. In Wiccan belief an individual has the freedom to select the deity of their own conscience, therefore Jesus is permitted;  further because the historical church did utizile these festivals in Celtic and Germanic lands in earlier history, it is equally appropriate for Christians who want to honor their heritage to utilize these festivals as for Pagan Adherants to utilize them.  In this way both Pagan and Christian people with an interest in the festivals and culture of their own heritage can find satisfaction in celebrating European Feast Days that may stem back into the Bronze Age, while continuing to honor their own  inner beliefs and faith.  In this way, both groups use Celtic and Germanic Festivals as a framework for worship, symbol, the teaching of morality, and so on, and both are free to choose the deities of their choice. ENDQUOTE Earrach (talk) 23:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Christian Wiccan" propoganda in lead section?

message: In the Yule section it is said that Bethlehem is in "the SOUTHERN hemisphere" which is clearly not the case seeing Israel lies about 29 degrees north of the equator at its southernmost point and Bethlehem is at around 	31°42′11″ if we use the commonly accepted location for Jesus' birth. LeoDaVinci (talk) 18:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right, and doesn't this invalidate the whole argument that is set forth in that section? Julienvr (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Discrepancy about location

message: I removed obvious false information from the section on Samhain (someone claimed that children pursue candy to ward off demons, among other things).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.180.49.1 (talk) 05:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Someone is vandalizing Samhain

message: The wheel of the year is sometimes said to reflect the growing season and harvest cycles of agrarian communities. There are references to such cycles in other religions and traditions? Perhaps a section could be added on that (after all there is much comparative religion in other articles esp amongst the Abrahamists). I was just looking here ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_Decalogue
and it struck me the similarities with the harvestings and the wheel of the year. Maybe there is more like that. I have not added it as some might see it as original research.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.231.178.239 (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  wheel of the year in other religions??

message: The version of the story of the Oak King and Holly King is contrary to any version I have ever heard.  I had always heard that the Oak King wins at the winter solstice and the Holly King wins at the summer solstice.  I read through the citation given and the only mention of the Oak King was in reference to St. John.  There was no mention of the Holly King.  Does anyone have more accurate information on this story? WarriorPrincessDanu (talk) 15:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Oak King and Holly King

message: I have added some citations, but am not sure exactly where more are required. I would appreciate some inline Citation needed templates for guidance if anyone can help with that. HelenOnline (talk) 07:37, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just how many sources are cited, it's also the quality of those sources. Most paragraphs and all sections now are sourced, but several of them need replacing or support from sources with broader coverage.—Sowlos (talk) 14:56, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional citations required

message: Hello!  I attempted to edit this article from my phone.  It went fairly well (although I had to use desktop mode and an external editor), but it seems to have glitched a bit.  For whatever reason, a section header got messed up.  Fixing it should be easy for a desktop user, but would be almost impossible from my cellphone. 
Please press ctrl+F (Windows / Linux; idk
if that works on Macs), and type "=="
(w/o the quotes, ofc), and your browser should take you right to it.  I'm guessing some nowiki flags must have been automatically added to it.  Just remove those, and it will hopefully be fixed. 
Also, regarding my last edit, is there any information available on how the Wheel works for those of us near-ish to the equator?  For example, where I live (Naples, in southwest Florida), we have a tropical climate with two seasons: wet/warm (during the N Hemisphere's summer), and dry/cool (during winter).  No snow of course, and very little change in day length. 
Alrighty, that's it for now.  :)
:~MaiyaH78 04:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glitched edit, please fix 

message: The name Mabon has been used as the name of the Celtic folk band formed by Welsh composer-accordionist Jamie Smith. The band seems to be notable: "jamie smith" + mabon produces 49,200 GoogleSearch results. If not in this article, where should this band be mentioned? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Because this is not an article about Celtic music or bands. If the band is notable, WP:WTAF. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 22:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I had spotted that "this is not an article about Celtic music or bands", thanks. But it was a "where" question. I had thought a mention could have been added at the Main article Equinox, but I see that Mabon is not even mentioned there. I guess these archaic terms will eventually have no real relevance to contemporary life. A shame, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:33, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Mabon is not an archaic term for the equinox. Nevertheless Mabon is linked from the September equinox article. For what it's worth. Happy equinox! --Editor B (talk) 05:14, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I must have missed that, sorry. I had assumed it was an archaic term for the Autumn equinox. Perhaps the band  could be mentioned at September equinox#Human culture? But I'm not very hopeful. It does appear in other names, such as Mabon ap Modron and the Welsh Trade Unionist bard Mabon. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:25, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mabon (band) 

message: I apologize if I'm misinterpreting what's being said here, but to me, the following sentence clearly implies the Jewish Sabbath to be a heretical celebration.
Among Wiccans, the festivals are also referred to as sabbats /ˈsæbət/, with Gerald Gardner claiming this term was passed down from the Middle Ages, when the terminology for Jewish Shabbat was commingled with that of other heretical celebrations.[2]
Taken from the first, introductory section; 3rd paragraph.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msredzinski (talk • contribs) 19:36, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I assume it's trying to say that "Witches' Sabbat" was originally intended as an insulting term. AnonMoos (talk) 04:53, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish Sabbath a heretical celebration? 

message: As the lede section is now, it does not explain when the Wheel of the Year was invented. This is only explained in the Origins section, where it says that it originated in Britain in the 1950s. I added a few words to the second paragraf of lede section, as the lede otherwise might give the impression that the concept is very old. I changed from this: "Observing the cycle of the seasons has been important to many people, both ancient and modern." To this: "Observing the cycle of the seasons has been important to many people, both ancient and modern, although the concept of placing them in a calendar based on four or eight solar events was invented in the 1950s."
 reverted my edit and pointed to MOS:LEAD, saying that the information is "not critical to undersanding the article". Is it really not? As the lede currently reads, someone who is new to the subject and only reads the lede could very well end up believing that the Wheel of the Year comes from ancient pagan practices - when the Origins section say that it's from the 1950s. I can't see how the very origin of the article subject, especially with the way it's currently presented, could be anything but critical to understanding the concept. The article would be about an entirely different subject if it actually was a pre-Christian concept, and not one that originated in the 1950s. Hsvinet (talk) 21:36, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the origin of the Wheel of the Year critical to understanding the article? 

message: This article contained many references to the effect that 'Alban' means 'light' in Welsh (e.g. 'Alban Hefin' as 'Light of [the] Summer'. This is simply incorrect. I say this as a professional Welsh-language translator and as somebody with a post-graduate degree in Welsh literature.
For confirmation, see Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (The University of Wales Dictionary), a historic dictionary of the Welsh language similar in scope and purpose to the Oxford English Dictionary in the English language): http://welsh-dictionary.ac.uk/gpc/gpc.html?alban. See both senses of the word, none of which  mention 'light'.
There is no room etymologically for this, even at a stretch. It seems that the miss-attributed meaning of 'light' to 'alban' is a result of imaginative guesses by American and English neo-pagans with no knowledge of the Welsh-language. Indeed, this twisting of the Welsh language to Romantic ends is nothing less than cultural appropriation, which is another reason to desist from it, in addition to its being incorrect.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.57.93 (talk) 15:45, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Alban' 

message: Brigid was conceived near a riverbank in Ireland, whereby Dagda and The Celtic Triple Goddess, known as The Morrigan, unite every year. (The Morrigan is not some nameless commoner from the Tuatha De Danaan. she is a worshipped deity who deserves respect and recognition as such.) VeravonviXXXen (talk) 04:45, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dagda and The Morrigan's Annual reunion