Talk:Vegetable oils as alternative energy

message: This article looks like a one man job, and has the associated slight bias.
: No doubt.  I have tried to be objective but one person won't see from as many sides as many.  Over time other people will edit it and make it more objective.  Any help is appreciated.  Another problem is that many of the references are to web pages and not the best primary sources.  I don't think any of the information is significantly wrong, but Wikipedia is better when it has primary sources as references.  Again, over time I expect this to get better.  Vincecate 11:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed it.  See if it sounds better to you. Vincecate 05:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: It looks like article makes lot of false claims. Which reliable sources claim Vegetable oil will replace fossil fuels. Whether anybody has estimated how much oil can be produced using Vegetable oils vis a vis current fossil fuel production. Who has coined this term? Is it a fantasy of people or scientific prediction? --Indianstar 15:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is talking about the potential to replace fossil fuels, not asserting that it will.  If you look at Biodiesel around the world you can see that vegetable oil converted to biodiesel is really replacing some fossil fuel already.  Some places have said biodiesel is the fastest growing alternative fuel.  I think hydrogen economy first coined this convention of using "economy" and there are a number of articles that use this convention in Wikipedia (early in this article it mentions some others).  Exactly what claims do you think are false? Vincecate 22:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hydrogen economy is the word used by many reliable sources like How Stuff works. I have not seen Vegetable oil economy being mentioned by any reliable sources. When we talk about "economy" it should replace major portion of fossil fuel which is the case in Hydrogen economy. As far as I know no major scientist has predicted that Vegetable oil will replace major part of fossil fuels. First few statements of article looks like original research to me. We can rename article as  "Vegetable oil fuel". Let us not invent new term in wikipedia. --Indianstar 03:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While hydrogen economy was first, ethanol economy and methanol economy are also terms used in reliable sources.  Wikipedia also reports on lithium economy and liquid nitrogen economy following in this convention.  If you look at biodiesel around the world you can see how real vegetable oil as biodiesel is.  There are pumps all over the place.  I don't think there is a single hydrogen pump open for cars from the general public anyplace.  So the economic impact of vegetable oil economy is far far greater than hydrogen economy so far.  And it is growing fast, while hydrogen economy still looks like it will not start for a long time.  There is already a Vegetable oil used as fuel article but the focus is not on the potential to replace fossil fuels, which is a different issue.  All of the "xxx economy" articles are looking at that question.  Vegetable oil economy is real and worthy of reporting on and this seems the natural  name for this topic given the other xxx economy names.  It is not some idea I made up, it is a real thing happening in the world.  Vincecate 23:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As for reliable sources predicting vegetable oil economy will be significant, how about this one: "the use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today but such oils may become, in the course of time, as important as petroleum and the coal-tar products of the present time." - Rudolf Diesel in 1912 Vincecate 00:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

text:  Can you show few reliable sources which uses this terminology. If third party sources does not use  this word then it does not belong to wikipedia. I am not questioning its impact, feasibility etc. Later, I will look at other economy articles and evaluate whether those terms are used by third party sources. Few sources I have come across gives impression that Vegetable oil as fuel is viable if we get cheap fossil fuel and subsidised agriculture. I appreciate your efforts for this article. I am only asking for name change.--Indianstar 02:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean "Few sources I have come across gives impression that Vegetable oil as fuel is viable if we get cheap fossil fuel and subsidised agriculture."?  Vincecate 03:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The vegetable oil economy includes using vegetable oil used as fuel, vegetable oil converted to biodiesel, and vegetable oil blends with diesel.  A title of "Vegetable oil fuel" does not sound right to cover all of these, just the first article listed.  Given the well established tradition of hydrogen economy, ethanol economy, and methanol economy, I think the current title is the natural name for this topic.  Do you have another name you think is better? Vincecate 03:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research 

message: Does a picture of an oil production/drilling platform really add anything to this section (try to ignore the fact that a cran is in use while a helicopter is about to land (Oy veh).)?  All it says is: This is in oil platform.  Eventually, it'll be dry.  Show a graph or a quote.  And give a source please. Ufwuct  —Preceding comment was added at 00:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV and unnecessary

message: I have edited "However, adding algaculture to a carbon emitting coal powerplant would not make it carbon-neutral unless the CO2 was permanently "captured" by burying the algae in the earth.  In the case where the algae is used as an energy source, then the algaculture itself is carbon-neutral, however, it does not in anyway alter the net CO2 emissions, and so the powerplant's net carbon footprint is unchanged."
:The problem is you could also argue that the carbon coming into the powerplant in the coal is balanced by the carbon leaving in the algae so that in fact it is the powerplant that is carbon neutral.  It is kind of arbitrary to assign all the benefit to either the powerplant or to the transportation use.  Seems more fair to assign half to each.  Vincecate 11:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There was duplication between the algae stuff under electricity generation and in the algae section so I put it all in the algae section.  Vincecate 13:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Which is carbon neutral when carbon used twice

message: This section of the article needs work.  It is promotional and not scientific.  We don't do the environment any good by advocating things without a fair and accurate description of the tradeoffs.  Clearly the growing, processing, and burning of vegetable oil is not carbon neutral.  Can someone clean this section up and make it more balanced and fair and based on science.  Also the mileage gotten from vegetable oils, deforestation issues, and other concerns need to be presented.  On the other hand recycling it from other uses seems to be a very productive use. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If only vegetable oil is used by the tractors, trucks, factories, etc involved, then it could be carbon neutral.  Vincecate (talk) 13:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a citation for that?  What about fertilizer?  The land cultivated for this use rather than for food or forest? And even if you ignore the need to grow it, how is burning vegetable oil carbon neutral? ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  The vegetable oil is made from carbon in the air.  So if you grow some, and then burn it, the net is neutral.  If you use fertilizer which fossil fuels were used to make, then you are not neutral.  With fossil fuels every ton of carbon burned is newly added to the air (coming from deep down in the Earth).  With vegetable oil you are recycling the carbon that was already in the air.  If this is 100% recycling, or something less, depends on all the details (tractor fuel, how fertilizer is made, etc) but in principle it could be purely recycled carbon.  Vincecate (talk) 22:33, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But ground has to be cleared to grow the vegetable oil crop. And it has to be planted, and harvested, and processed, and transported.  Then the fuel has to be distributed. It is most definitely not carbon neutral and depending on how its grown and where it's grown has the potential to be inflationary, damaging to the environment, and very hard on native plants and wildlife. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:41, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be using already cleared ground.  You might use vegetable oil for the tractor, factory, and trucks.  It could be carbon neutral, or not, depending on what was really done.   Yes, as the article says, if you are clearing new land it can be damaging to the environment.  Vincecate (talk) 00:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: *NO* fuel is carbon neutral if you wish to count every possible influence real world of fossil fuels, etc.  Eg, what if someone uses a plastic bag based on fossil fuels to package a part?
As for the forest... northern forests supposedly give off more CO2 than they absorb, so clearing them may "reduce" co2.
It may end up that CO2 will later be seen as a good thing/plant food, for much of earth's history the world has been *much* warmer than it is today, the golden bronze age of man was for example a much warmer earch.  The whole premise of less co2 means better future enviroment has not been proven.  Meanwhile we *know* acid rain is overall harmful, and forests that may not net absorb co2 do help clean the air.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.200.17 (talk) 21:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Environmentally friendly fuel

message: This hadn't been mentioned, so I included it:
In Europe, straight vegetable oil (SVO) costs 54 pence/liter at most supermarkets and 42 pence/liter when bought in bulk direct from the manufacturers whereas diesel costs atleast 99 pence per liter (in the UK) to well over that (depends on the year, 1.4 euro is the current market price in central Europe).http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=520558 In the USA, diesel costs about 0,6 $ per liter[http://www.dieselearth.com/notebook/bulk-vegetable-oil.html Diesel and petrol costing about 3 dollar per gallon and the cheapest SVO costs about the same, with more expensive oils costing more than that (upto 7$ per gallon).Waste vegetable oil worth 1,4 RM to 2RM in Penang
Perhaps more references are needed ?
91.182.37.177 (talk) 07:02, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Price of vegetable oil

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