Talk:Shiloh Shepherd dog/Archive 1

message: An attempted page move seems to have trashed this article. Forunately, I had a rendered copy saved in my cache. Reconstructing. -- The Anome 16:14, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Page Move

message: This information was originally presented here by Jeff Bragg.  It was a very unbiased page until certain factions started to play with it!  Earlier today I added some TRUE information so that the reader could get an honest view about these dogs.  I did not remove the "other" "registries" that had been listed by the dissidents, just clarified the FACTS!
In all honesty, they should not even be listed, unless just to warn the public regarding the various groups that *claim* to be "registries" that are selling their mutts as Shiloh Shepherds because the *name* is not trademarked at this time. Although I have been awarded "common law" rights to my name, as has been proven via court documentation!
Now for some FACTS.
1. The Shiloh Shepherd is *not* a "breed" because it is *not* recognized by any legitimate organization, like the AKC, CKC, FCI, UK, etc.  We are still a breed UNDER DEVELOPMENT, and even listed as such on many independent web sites! Please view 
<<NOTE: The Shiloh Shepherd is a breed under development. The "breed" is not approved by the Canadian Kennel Club (CKC), United Kennel Club (UKC), nor the American Kennel Club Foundation Stock Service (AKC-FSS) due to it NOT meeting the requirements as of yet. For further details regarding breed registries, see Dog Breed Registries in North America. 
Because the Shiloh Shepherd is a breed under development, the importance of learning about the breed and the Breeder before you buy cannot be stressed enough. The links provided here are strictly for information purposes and convenience in finding relevant details about the breed and/or breeders and should in no way be viewed as a recommendation, endorsement or support of any one site over another.  >>  
 http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/shiloh.htm
2. As the Breed Founder, I can assure you that I know exactly how many pups are born every year, and how many LEGITIMATE dogs are registered yearly!!  Over the past 15+ years only approximately 4,000 have been entered into our TCCP database ... you do the math!  Out of that number less then 20% were considered worthy of being bred, and more then 70% of those are now gone/over the age limit for breeding!! In a united effort, the ISSR Licensed Breeders only produce approximately 200 pups per year ... yet many *other* pups are being sold as "Shiloh Shepherds" via the 'self proclaimed' "registries" promoted by the BYB's that have started them, just recently!!!
3. If these factions had ANY kind of credibility at all they would have been accepted by the UKC when they tried so hard to unite & apply last year.  Take a moment and read the FULL story!!  http://www.shilohshepherds.com/letterToUKC.htm  I think this article clearly shows the TRUE facts!!
Judy Vaneman wrote:Ms. Barber. As the owner and registrar of the NSBR, I truly resent your claims that we are "dissidents", selling mutts, back yard breeders, or not entered into the ISSR database, therefore not true Shiloh Shepherds. Your comments are rude and very near to something that could result in a law suit. I am sure the TSSR and SSBA feel the same.
:As a person who saw the need for a true registry, not just something that is owned and promoted by you, I also resent that you have implied that I personally am a BYB, again, heading for a slander law suit. You need to watch your language and show proper respect to everyone, even if they are not affiliated with you.:We walked away willingly in 1997 from your organization and have never wanted to approach you or your ISSR again. I personally watched in horror as you permitted dogs with bad hips be bred under your SP (still permissable) hip program.':The NSBR originally had the same rules as the ISSR (with the exception of the SP program), but we have raised the bar and still believe in the DNA program. Since you were the only offender when that DNA program was initiated in 1995, I can understand why you dropped that program with your ISSR. For you to say our registration rules are lax is inaccurate as they are at least as strict, if not more so than the ISSR rules that you developed.
:Respectfully, I ask that you not resort to slander for either the registries or the breeders who are not affiliated with you.
:Judy VanemanShilohshepherd 19:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Truth? Edited on 12/15 by the NSBR

message: Yes, I admit that my name is Karen Ursel, that I am the secretary of the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and that I have edited the page several times this year in an attempt to return the article to the original words and intent of its author, J. Jeffrey Bragg.  
For information about Tina Barber's common law rights to the words "Shiloh Shepherds" please reference the 1996 settlement in the court case of The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America and Tina Barber vs. Watts, Turkheimer and the United States Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club in the US District Court in New Jersey  http://www.shilohshepherds.com/1996CourtCase.htm.  Pdf's of the settlement are attached to this page.  
Quoting from the settlement:
"The parties now wish to settle and resolve their mutual differences. …the parties hereto agree as follows:
1. Defendants acknowledge that Shiloh Shepherd™ and International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. ™ are valid and protectable trademarks of which Barber and ISSR are the rightful owners, respectively. Defendants affirm Plaintiffs’ trademark rights and agree that no future use or infringement of the name or mark (nor colorable imitation or variation thereof) will be made, irrespective of whether the mark(s) are accepted for registration on the Register.  
 
2.  Defendants agree not to begin or maintain a registry, club or organization that claims any affiliation, origin or sponsorship with Shiloh Shepherd™ (as for example, indicating in advertisements, correspondence, sales materials, etc. that a Schaeferhunde or other breed “originates from” Shiloh Shepherd™ dog), except as specifically permitted in paragraph 3 below.
 
3. (a) Only dogs duly and actively registered within the ISSR may be referred to as Shiloh Shepherd™ dogs. Any dog which is not properly ISSR registered shall not be referred to by Defendants verbally or in writing, as a Shiloh Shepherd™ dog, or any variance or imitation of the name Shiloh Shepherd™.
(b) The use of the word “Shiloh” may only be used in Defendant’s registration, as proof of lineage, if the name was originally established through AKC registration as having come from Tina Barber’s Shiloh Shepherd Kennels, prior to the formation of the ISSR."
 
I apologize for inadvertently violating Wikipedia procedure as I was unaware that a lock had been put on this page until after I saw that my ip address had been blocked.  
Trillhill
:Hello Karen. I have been reading this with interest. All of my dogs, with the exception of the dogs born since 1997 (when I walked away from Ms. Barber and the ISSR) were registered breedable dogs with the ISSR. Ms. Barber says (as do you) that now, they are no longer Shiloh Shepherd dogs, even though I have the original registration papers bearing all legitimate ISSR seals. For many years, I advertised my Shiloh Shepherds in Ms. Barber's advertisements in many dog magazines, and now she says they are no longer a breed. We advertised as a collective breed with her. Judy VanemanShilohshepherd 19:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edits 

message: 1. Tina Barber is this breeds founder.  
2. This breed is in transition, which means it’s not done yet. 
3. Which means Tina Barber is still in control of where this breed is going.  
4. ISSR breeders breed under Tina Barbers guidance. ALL BREEDINGS MUST BE APPROVED BY TINA BARBER FOR THE OFFSPRING TO BE ISSR QUALITY. 
Just putting together 2 ISSR dogs does NOT make ISSR puppies. 
Genetics is the name of the game here, and not papered dogs.
5. Yes other breeders have stolen stock and have confused the general public. 
People will always want to breed dogs that are inferior to make money. 
No dog is perfect, but some should not be breed and still others should not be used for this breed. 
Which means they are fine for a GSD, but do not hold what Tina Barber is looking for in the Shiloh line. People take this news badly and try to go it on their own with Tina Barbers dogs name. Why? Because of the money involved.  
6. Creating your own breed takes time, knowledge and a plan. Tina Barber has that plan, has taken the time and applied her knowledge 
The outcome is yet to come. The dog is on its way, but hasn’t arrived yet.
How can others claim to be able to breed a dog that doesn’t exist yet?  
What you are seeing today are foundation dogs of the future. Tina Barbers dream.  
67.186.153.43 13:29, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Facts 

message: I added a  tag to this article, as there is clearly a dispute between two groups over the facts about this dog.
I'd also like to remind everyone discussing things on the talk page that they should sign their own posts using 4 tilde characters as follows: ~~~~ 
This will put your name and timestamp in place.   It's confusing to read the debate otherwise as you have to look at the history in order to see who actually posted what.
Trysha (talk) 19:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  the dispute 

message: When confronted with facts and logic by someone Tina Barber resorts to scare tactics. As by her own admission rather than back her claims with provable facts to dispute a posters claims, she contacts a posters employer in an attempt to cause him employment problems.
How pathetic is that? Signs of a desperate person who cannot back their claims so she tries to eliminate the person proving her wrong.
This is no surprise though, this has been how she has always handled things when confronted with real provable facts, take the attention off of herself and try to hurt or intimidate the people who can back what they say.
ShenandoahShilohs 21:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scare tactics 

message: Patti,
You wrote "There is no mention, nor has there ever been mention of testing of heart and elbows in the ISSR rules. This is just one example of her attempts to deceive the public and Wikipedia."
Please refer to our Gold Star Program:
http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issr.htm#GoldStarProgram
Article 3 Section 12: Gold Star Program
Special 3-4-5 Star Certificates will be issued to any adult papered RED/ORA/GOL dog that has attained (accumulated) his/her stars by fulfilling any combination of the following requirements.
1. Has attained a minimum of 3 OFA verified certificates recorded in the OFA health database, and/or
2. Completed his/her ISSR breed club Championship, and/or
3. Earned an accredited working degree via an ISSR recognized organization, such as the AHBA (American Herding Breed Association), DVG  America (Deutscher Verband der Gebrauchshundsportvereine), USA (United Schutzhund Clubs of America), PSA (Protection Sports Association) or any ISSR sanctioned STM certification.
as well as our Platinum Plus registration certificates:
Section 2: Item F-3.) PLATINUM PLUS  certificates with 4 or 5 Gold Stars* will be issued for FREE to any dog that meets all of the Article II Section 2 Item F-2 requirements PLUS 
1). has attained a minimum of 3 verifiable OFA certificates recorded in their health* database and/or
*Final OFA hip rating *Normal Elbows *Clear Heart *Normal Thyroid  
2.) has attained an accredited working degree via any organization recognized by the ISSR (see full details on the Gold Star program as per Article 3 Section 12).
Both of these programs have been in place for several years.
Trillhill 00:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Blatant Lies 

message: While your Gold Star program appears to be a wonderful program, it is not MANDATORY as claimed by Tina Barber in her edit of the article per your own rules.
Also, since Tina Barber claims to have 4000 Shilohs in her data base, can you share how many of them are 5 Star members of your program? I don't see that many on the OFA web site with all that testing completed.
152.163.100.132 02:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: Blatant lies 

message: 1. Tina Barber is this breeds founder.
2. This breed is in transition, which means it’s not done yet.
Response:
In 1991 Barber asked for recognition of the Shilohs Shepherd as a Breed with the American Rare Breed Association, providing them with a breed standard with closed stud books. Further, for years they were sold to the general public as a "Breed" and advertized in National Magazines as a Breed. It has only been the last few years were the new claims of a breed in development sprang up as a means to control people. 
LIE ... THE STUD BOOKS ARE NOT CLOSED, AND ARBA RECIEVED THE BREED STANDARD FOR JUDGING PURPOSES ONLY!!!
3. Which means Tina Barber is still in control of where this breed is going.
Response:
That is the whole problem, she has to feel in control of everything, but that control was lost once the Shiloh Shepherd was recognized as a Breed of dog'''''
NOBODY RECOGNIZED IT .. CHECK THE AKC, CKC, UKC, FCI DATA!  http://canadasguidetodogs.com/breeders.htm 
4. ISSR breeders breed under Tina Barbers guidance. ALL BREEDINGS MUST BE APPROVED BY TINA BARBER FOR THE OFFSPRING TO BE ISSR QUALITY.
Just putting together 2 ISSR dogs does NOT make ISSR puppies.
Genetics is the name of the game here, and not papered dogs.
5. Yes other breeders have stolen stock and have confused the general public.
Response:
Excuse me? Typical of this ISSR group. When people decide to leave the ISSR with the dogs that they have purchased claims are made that they have "stolen stock" when in reality, they just made a dicission to leave on organization for another.'''''
FULL DETAILS ARE DOCUMENTED VIA http://shilohbuyersbeware.blogspot.com/ 
People will always want to breed dogs that are inferior to make money.
No dog is perfect, but some should not be bred and still others should not be used for this breed.
Response:
How very true, you should take that fact to heart.'''''
ISSR LICENSED BREEDERS DO CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE PRODUCING & HOW THIS WILL EFFECT ALL FUTURE GENERATIONS!
Which means they are fine for a GSD, but do not hold what Tina Barber is looking for in the Shiloh line. People take this news badly and try to go it on their own with Tina Barbers dogs name. Why? Because of the money involved.
Response:
Again, twisting facts. People have left for many reasons,most moral reasons, some as evident from the lawsuits against the Barbers per posted legal documents. People have been "going it on their own" now for over 8 years with many generations of wonderful HEALTHY Shilohs as proven by OFA stats as well as the many many Champions in the show rings.'''''
THIS PAGE TELLS IT LIKE IT IS!!  WITH LOTS OF DOCUMENTATION!!  http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/shilohWallShame.htm 
6. Creating your own breed takes time, knowledge and a plan. Tina Barber has that plan, has taken the time and applied her knowledge
The outcome is yet to come. The dog is on its way, but hasn’t arrived yet.
How can others claim to be able to breed a dog that doesn’t exist yet?
Response:
How history has changed according to Tina Barber. When all those people back in the early 90's purchased these dogs you claim don't exist, they were sold for huge price tags as the "perfectly Breed, with a "blue printed" genetic make up. Many people learned the hard way that too was just another sales and marketting tool and have worked hard to create the dogs they were all promised when writing those checks.'''''
THE TRUE HISTORY IS FULLY DOCUMENTED IN THE CLUB ARCHIVES! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapSSDCALinks.htm 
What you are seeing today are foundation dogs of the future. Tina Barbers dream
AMEN!!  PLEASE READ http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap2005HistoryShilohShepherd.htm 
Response:
How gullible or lacking of intelligence do you think most people are? Barber claims she has been developing these dogs now for how many years, it changes ever so often? Last I read it was like 40 years making  her  like 14 years old when she started.
MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ MY NEW BOOK, IT IS FULLY DOCUMENTED WITH PICTURES & DETAILS ABOUT MY HISTORY!!  http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap2005HistoryShilohShepherd.htm 
If a person hasn't been able to accomplish their dream in that many years maybe it is time they wake from that "dream"
It didn't take Max V S anywhere near that long to create the GSD, and the Shiloh is, just as Barber claims, the GSD of old'''''.ShenandoahShilohs 03:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re:Shiloh Shepherd facts 

message: Maybe we can all agree on a few facts.
1. The Shiloh Shepherd was developed by Tina M. Barber.
2. The Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA), founded in 1991,  was and continues to be the original Shiloh Shepherd breed club, with chapters across the US and Europe.   
3. The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR), started in 1991, is the original registry and has been continuously registering Shiloh Shepherds since that time.
Both of these entities are associated with the breed's founder, Tina M. Barber.
4. Foundations for another breed club, the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (original ISSDC), began in 1997 with that club coming into existence in 1998 and starting its own registry in early 1998.
5. The original ISSDC and its registry closed down in 2001.
6. With the close of the ISSDC's registry, various smaller registries were formed from what remained. 
  a. The NSBR was started in 2001 according to their own website.  
  b. The TSSR started in 2002. 
  c. The SSBA, which seems to include many of the same breeders as the NSBR, was also formed.
These smaller registries formed because the breeders could not get along with each other after the ISSDC's registry was closed, not because they had just recently ended their association with Tina M. Barber or had recently been breeding within the ISSR.
The NSBR and the TSSR have their registry rules and regulations on their websites.  The NSBR's rules are pretty lax, the TSSR's more strict.  The SSBA currently does not publish their rules on their website.   
7.  Another attempt at forming a breed club, the new ISSDC, was made in mid to late 2004. Membership is free.
If you disagree with or question any of  this, please check the ISSDC, TSSR, SSBA and NSBR websites. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've just spent 30 minutes going through the history of this article. 
I think it was Shiloh Lover who accused ISSR folks of vandalizing the web page. 
The article on the Shiloh Shepherd was written by J. Jeffrey Bragg and first published on Wikipedia in July 2003.  There were minimal changes until April 14th of this year.
At that time, someone changed the article to read:
"The Shiloh Shepherd Dog was developed by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Kennels in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium imitators and dissident breed clubs and registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed.
Not agreeing to financially and/or morally support a breed founder that does not do necessary health testing and that breeds dogs with known genetic and temperament issues does not make one a dissident ... it makes one ethical. 
As a result trademark status was sought for the breed name... and denied! The breed has its own independent registry, the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. The ISSR does NOT have a REGISTERED Trademark on the name "Shiloh Shepherd." Both the ISSR and the breed founder, Tina Barber, were denied a trademark. If you will take note the TM she uses is not enclosed in a circle. "''
The links to the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA) and the ISSR were changed to the http://www.shilohshepherdtssr.com.  (The TSSR home page)
One might think that this was "vandalizing" the page.
By April 16th, the link to the Shiloh Shepherd breed standard had been removed and references were made to the TSSR, the SSBA and the NSBR with the ISSR relegated to being one of many "independent registries."
On April 18th, the article was reverted to the original.
On Nov.4th, the ISSR was removed from the body of the article and mentioned as an external link only. This change was made by Shiloh Lover (Bold Canines, a non-ISSR breeder.) 
The pace quickly accelerated.
On Nov. 26th, the page was changed to again mention the ISSR in the body of the article.
On Nov. 30th I added an external link to page that compared the various registies and the two clubs, with information taken from their websites.
On Dec. 2nd Shiloh Lover removed that link and changed the history section to read "As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium a new private breed club and many private registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. The breed has multiple recognized registries, that follow a common breed standard, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under the parent breed club - The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club.ISSDC."  
Again no mention of the only registry that has been registering Shiloh Shepherds since 1991. This is hardly neutral or non-partisan.
On Dec. 3rd, the breed's founder changed the history section to read  "The Shiloh Shepherd Dog was developed by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds (Kennel) in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium a new private breed club and many private registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. The breed now has multiple registries, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club.
However, the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to stand strong' with over 4,000 dogs registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America."'
On Dec. 4th, Shiloh Lover changed this to read "The breed now has multiple recognized registries, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club ISSDC.
The founding registry, International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to exist' with over 4,000 dogs registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America."'
On Dec. 5th, the wording was changed to:  "As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium a new private breed club and many private registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. The breed now has multiple self proclaimed registries, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club. None of these have full documentation regarding the database, nor do they follow the rules of the official and true registry established by the breed founder, to document all LMX data for this breed while in development.
However, the breeds original registry, International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to stand strong with over 4,000 carefully selected progeny registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and Tina M. Barber, the breed founder."''
 
On Dec. 6th Shendandoah Shilohs (TSSR breeder and the vice president of the ISSDC) changed the history section to read 
"The Shiloh Shepherd Dog has been under development by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds (Kennel) in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium a new private breed club and many private registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. The breed now has multiple registries, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club. These registries follow strict health testing that can be documented. The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club is a very large and fast growing club uniting all the above registries. Many of the 4000 dogs claimed registered with the ISSR are dogs that have left that registry years ago. However, the breeds original registry, International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to stand strong with over 4,000 carefully selected progeny registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and Tina M. Barber, the breed founder." 
I would suggest that non-ISSR folks were at least equally responsible for making partisan changes to this article.  Between Dec. 6th and 8th the page was changed at least 18 times! It's ridiculous and embarrassing to the breed (even if it is still under development!).
Trillhill 04:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Few Facts 

message: First of all I would like to thank Karen for the nice -honest- post!!
<< I would suggest that non-ISSR folks were at least equally responsible for making partisan changes to this article. Between Dec. 6th and 8th the page was changed at least 18 times! It's ridiculous and embarrassing to the breed (even if it is still under development!).
Trillhill 04:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  FRAUD? 

message: The deletion of ===Moderator Help=== was entirely unintentional and occured during the removal of previous posts by self.
I will attempt to reinsert discussion point in correct place.  
Deletion of self created discussion items were removed as I will no longer participate in this article.
Shiloh lover 16:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accidental Deletion by Self - Moderator, please correct 

message: I have two ISSR Shiloh Shepherds from Tina and Lisa Barber (New Zion Shiloh Shepherds) that I am very satisfied with.  I found Shiloh Shepherds during a search for suitable service dog candidates during early 2000.  Due to the exacting standards required, the ISSR and Tina Barber's standards for breeding fit the bill.  
Casey, my female, I received after the fire at Tina's house in 2000 for training as a mobility support service dog.  She learned her job very well and also alerted to seizures I have before they happened.  In late 2002, while trying to keep me from falling due to snow-covered ice, she was injured and had to retire from public duty.  I still have her and she is helping me at home.
Rebel, my male, I received from the Barbers in Febuary of 2004 to train as a mobility support/retrieve service dog.  He is doing well with his training and I hope to graduate him to full duty the summer of 2006 after his CGC is completed.  
Both dogs are medium soft in temperament.  Both dogs have handled new situations well during training and/or duty for service work, including flying on commercial airliners at my feet.
I feel with the information available on the ISSR and SSDCA websites, anyone can make the same informed choice that I did.  The other registeries simply, in my opinion, do not adequately document what they are trying to do.  It is also my opinion that if the other registries' breeders are not following the standards set by the ISSR, then they should not be calling their dogs Shiloh Shepherds.  All I have seen since I became involved in the Shiloh world is these other people badmouthing the ISSR, SSDCA, and Tina Barber.  They have not shown why they have the right to call their dogs Shiloh Shepherds.
With respect,
Tony Matzke 17:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment from a Satisfied ISSR Shiloh owner 

message: (See (cur) (last)  05:03, 11 December 2005 12.191.34.254 (→Comment from a Satisfied ISSR Shiloh owner) for reason for this post.  Original poster removed comments again.  Tony Matzke 14:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casey's training 

message: TB writes""As I look at these pages it pains me to see the extreme's that some people choose to resort to in order to sell their mutt puppies!!  If these people had a better plan, then why don't they name their breed & move on? Why do they insist on using MY name??  Maybe because it is well known, and they need it in order to fool the public into paying them a lot of money for worthless mutts?? "" 
I'm sure it does pain you, TB, to see what great strides the non-ISSR breeders have been making with their Shiloh Shepherds. One is top dog in ARBA, three more are in the top ten Rarities this year. Such beautiful examples of the breed! You should be proud to see how far these dogs have come! And we really do the health testing, instead of just spouting hot air about it. And we keep and share far more LMX data than you could ever hope to do yourself with all your secrets. The five dogs that I paid ISSR for to get LMX on different stud dogs had NO information on them!
The truth is that we are having one heck of a time trying to build the Shiloh Shepherd name back up after you muddy it over and over again with your unethical breeding/business practices and your insane rantings about slivers and oxymudas. But we're doing it in spite of you.
Worthless mutts?? I guess that depends on what you know and what's important to you. I took my own dogs out of th ISSR because I was ashamed to be associated with it any longer. I call my dogs Shiloh Shepherds because that's what they are. That doesn't change just because you say so.
This whole thing is rediculous and embarrassing to the breed. But what isn't if you've got yourself fired up?
And trying to get someone fired from thier job (that's something most people do to earn money so they can pay their bills and debts), just because he stood up to your BS!!! I'll tell you what, TB, you can call my job any time. We work with the mentally ill. I'm sure that anyone you talked to there would be very understanding of your problems.  Gloria 14:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  RE: FRAUD? 

message: A "few more facts for Gloria"????? Again, TB, you claim as proof some self made, self proclaiming garbage as fact. Your "last report"!! You provide links to your own website and for some reason believe that others would find this to be the truth. Get over it!! You're a phoney baloney and everyone knows it. You're the biggest joke in the dog world.  
You take sloppy pictures of other people's dogs and try to spin that as proof that yours are better. If yours are so much better, then why don't you enter them in a show against these dogs? When I saw your dogs they had feces caked onto their skin and smelled of urine.
You don't have a single dog in your kennel that looks like the one you had someone draw up for you as your breed standard. If you could only see the people laughing over that one!!!! That's the joke of the year, TB!
I know, I know...you say it's a breed in development, but come on, how many decades do you need to get a certain look? You claim to have been doing this since you were 12 years old. Looks like the splinters are going to beat you to it. Scares ya, doesn't it??? We've got some beautiful, healthy dogs out there being bred and winning in all the shows. We've got a lot of good people trying to clean up the mess you made with our breed. The ISSR has a lot of good breeders doing the same thing, but there's no way you'll ever let them do it because that'll take money out of your pocket and the glory might shine on someone else. If you can't co-own it or make money off of it you won't let any light shine on it - be it a litter or a stud dog. And we all find that out in the end because you don't have friendships or feel committments to other people, you just need people to admire you. And once people see what you really are, and they usually do, they despise you. In your world it's not about the dogs or the breed, it's about YOU, and that CAN be read in all your self serving articles. Write that up in your BarberBio!
Gloria23:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: reply to TB's BS

message: Well the link queen is at it again. Tina's only resource when met with the challange for REAL facts is to flood you with links to her self proclaimed web sites.
Notice how no one answered why she lied in the main Shiloh article stating that it was mandatory for ISSR dogs to have hips, heart and elbows done. Her side kick quotes a Gold Star program that is voluntary, not mandatory. When asked how many ISSR dogs have qualified for this program that too was ignored and just a bunch of her hate links posted. Interesting how you can't find any of her own breeding dogs on the OFA web site with all of this "mandatory" health testing.
Since she claims on her web sites that ARBA is using her breed standard here is a real link:
http://www.arba.org/2005ShowPoints.htm
Here are some pictures of this NON ISSR dog taken by real photographers.
http://www.arba.org/2005ShowPictures.htm
Sir Harley of Shenandoah is not only the number 1 ARBA dog, he has been judged using Tina's own breed standard by American and Foreign judges.
He is also sponsored by a top Canine Dog Food Company!!!
Interesting how she claims that none of the non ISSR dogs look like real Shilohs. This dog is one of my breedings, produced long after I left the ISSR. He is the top American Rare Breed Dog for 2005, with well over 30 Best in Shows this year. Further he is certified hips, heart, and thyroid.
For a real Bio on the business practices of this "Breed Founder" the facts are at:
http://shilohbuyerbeware.blogspot.com/
These are not self proclaimed accolades, these are verifiable court documents.
ShenandoahShilohs 01:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The link Queen 

message: Patti wrote "Since she claims on her web sites that ARBA is using her breed standard here is a real link: http://www.arba.org/2005ShowPoints.htm Here are some pictures of this NON ISSR dog taken by real photographers. http://www.arba.org/2005ShowPictures.htm"
Patti, please check out ARBA's breed standard for Shiloh Shepherds.  http://www.arba.org/ShilohShepherd1BS.htm  
Please note that it says it is the "ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Breed Standard" and is used with exlusive permission from Tina M. Barber. 
Please also note that among the disqualifying faults is " A tail that is raised above the vertical line and/or past the horizontal line of the croup".  Please check the tail section of the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Illustrated Breed Standard http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandardDonorsFinal.htm. Then check the links that Tina posted earlier.  While not "show" picture quality, they do illustrate the disqualifying fault.  
Trillhill 12:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: The Link Queen 

message: Please also note that among the disqualifying faults is " A tail that is raised above the vertical line and/or past the horizontal line of the croup". Please check the tail section of the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Illustrated Breed Standard http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandardDonorsFinal.htm. Then check the links that Tina posted earlier. While not "show" picture quality, they do illustrate the disqualifying fault.
Trillhill 12:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: The link queen 

message: PATTI WROTE
Karen, we all know about your picture taking. Many have heard your master tell you what pictures to take, and which ones not to take. In fact at the Expo and show in Conn. Tina was over heard by a number of people telling you NOT to take pictures of certain dogs as they were CORRECT.
Tina wrote:
In reality, I told Karen JUST to focus on your TOP winner, and we have several pictures of him on the Expo page clearly proving that we DON'T just try to "catch a bad shot"!!! Why don't you take a look at those pics yourself, there is a link to the report on our NEWS page!! Just go to http://www.shilohshepherd.com/
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog"
Tina,
Lets not try to cloud the facts. The dog that you are talking about is NOT my top winner. I don't think anyone will dispute he has a disqualifying tail.
And yes you did focus on him while there was a top winning female at that show that has a correct tail, yet you obviously didn't take pictures of her. If you had it would show the real you and the fact that you ONLY take pictures of some dogs to distort your infamous reports.
We all know that is your style, take a bunch of pictures of the same dogs with the same faults while not sharing the correct dogs. It is now, and always has been, all smoke and mirrors with you. You may be able to convince some of your followers that this is truth until they actually come to a few shows and see that your reports are distorted, or enter these shows and get beat.
If the ISSR was in reality able to breed such superior animals as you claim, then you would not find the need to worry about what the non ISSR people were breeding as yours would be speak for themselves.
Since this is not the case you find the need call people names and write fictitious repeorts to make yourself look important.
Also, why not take a look at a number of the ISSR dogs and their faults. Pink noses are also disqualifying, yet you seem to have a ton of them. Ears too tall, yup, I have seen a bunch of them. Undersized dogs, yup they are there too. 
Rather than worring about what others are breeding and spending all of your time writing reports and making foolish web sites you should try to breed some dogs that actually meet your new IBS!
ShenandoahShilohs 17:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: Shiloh Tails 

message: So loyal of you, Sandra, to try to take the heat off of TB each time it gets turned up a notch. But it's hard for me to imagine that you're embarrassed by this since you're usually one of her most vocal supporters when she starts one of her name calling tirades.
I'm afraid I disagree with you on the point that this has nothing to do with the changing of the article. TB was the one that charged non-ISSR Shilohs/breeders with being immitators and disidents and then puppy-millers. Shiloh Lover never strayed from the facts of the artice until TB called his place of employment and tried to get him fired for having an opinion, and at that time he just quit posting. The debate/discussion on this forum has pretty much stayed focused on exposing the truth in these matters. The answers seem pretty obvious to me. Give TB enough rope and she'll hang herself with her own BS every time. I don't blame you for not signing your name.
I agree with M Dufy. If TB's going to claim that non-ISSR Shiloh Shepherds are mutts with no data to back them up, then let her prove that she does it herself. What's so off-base about that? She's the breed founder and whelps/sells the most puppies each year so she should be proud to display this information and negate any question of problems with her breeding practices. 
I agree that we all need to come to a consensus about the article.  Maybe getting all the facts out like we're doing will help clear the air so this can all be settled in a neutral way.
Gloria00:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: re: the voice of reason

message: Gloria writes:
I agree with M Dufy. If TB's going to claim that non-ISSR Shiloh Shepherds are mutts with no data to back them up, then let her prove that she does it herself. What's so off-base about that? She's the breed founder and whelps/sells the most puppies each year so she should be proud to display this information and negate any question of problems with her breeding practices.
I too must agree, these facts are very important to the article since Tina Barber has edited the article to claim that ISSR breeders have to do mandatory testing of hips heart and elbows. These questions posed by Miles are very legitamate, just asking for proof of this claim.
With these questions posed I did a search of the OFA web site and looked for the dogs that Tina Barber has on her kennels web site. If these tests are mandatory as per the claims she makes then why are her dogs not on the OFA web site as being certified?
One poster claimed that the ISSR accepts preliminary testing. Ok, but OFA even lists preliminary reports unless the owner of the dog checks the box not to share the results. So the question is, are these dogs being tested at all, or are the owners not allowing OFA to post the results. Either way it is suspicious and certainly doesn't validate the claims made in the article that testing of hips, heart and elbows is mandatory.
Is this relevant to the writing of the Shiloh Shepherd article, I must definetly feel it is.
All over the discussion page some people have said this or that about TB being the ultimate authority on this breed. If that were the true case then one would think that her kennel would be the example for all to follow. 
TB has made claims that all non ISSR dogs are mutts and don't follow her "vision". Her vision is claimed to be the new Illustrated Breed Standard that she had her "people" pay to have made. 
http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandardDonorsMay.htm
I just saw a post made yesterday by Tina Barber about one of her stud dogs named Lex. She wrote that he is the most amazing dog that you have ever seen. Others followed with wow, what an awesome dog, etc..
Needless to say I had to go see this dog so I followed the provided link http://www.newzionshilohs.org/studs.htm
Don't take my word for it, go look for yourself, but of course read the Breed Standard first, especially the "Head" section. In the head section it read that the "muzzle should be predominately black". The dog that TB is raving about,Lex, has no black at all on his muzzle, and neither does another of her studs named Basco.
The reason I have pointed this out is to show that her claims that only ISSR breeders are following her vision are false. With 39 dogs listed on her kennel website, yes folks, that is 39 kennel dogs listed as their breeding stock, these matters are important.
There are nice little write ups on each of these dogs, but of course no health testing info.
Tina Barber has made all sorts of claims and negative comments about non ISSR dogs being faulty, undersized, or just not looking like what a Shiloh should look like per the Breed Standard.
What seems to be happening is the claims she is spouting pertain to her own dogs, not the non ISSR dogs. Her top stud Zion's A-Tribute to Snow's Grizz is undersized, and not even looking at other faults two of her other stud dogs have no black on their muzzles per the breed standard, yet this "Lex" is the most amazing dog that you have ever seen per TB.
This is all relevant to show one can't believe what she writes, and her bias article on this Breed of Dog is nothing but smoke and mirrors.
Gloria writes:
I agree that we all need to come to a consensus about the article. Maybe getting all the facts out like we're doing will help clear the air so this can all be settled in a neutral way
Yes, I too hope that the moderators of the Wikipedia can see what the problems are here and allow a neutral article about the breed, not all the hype and claims made about the ISSR, and the negative comments made about the non ISSR dogs.
Tina Barber has been doing this now for 8 years with claims and hopes that the non ISSR breeders and owners would all just go away. This is not going to happen. The facts are the facts. There are more non ISSR breeders out there that are following the original breed standard and are doing not only health testing, but for 8 years have maintained DNA parent verification on ALL the non ISSR dogs. The ISSR dropped having the dogs DNA tested. One would have to ask why? Is there something to hide that continuing to prove DNA parent verification whould show?
There is such a cloud of secrecy with the ISSR. No health data for the public to see, no DNA to show who the puppy you purchase is really from, and basically no proof of any of the claims made.
ShenandoahShilohs 14:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: the voice of reason 

message: Hey Karen, Trillhill, why have you been  deleting a number of posts where Tina Barber has violated the Wikipedia rules by calling non ISSR people puppymillers etc.?
For those interested, just click the history tab and you can see all changes and deletions made by people. They don't go away, they are all still in the history for all to see what people have written.
ShenandoahShilohs 15:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleting Posts 

message: To the moderators, and everyone else. I have just posted a revised and very neutral artcile about the Shiloh Shepherd Breed. I am sure as history has shown Tina Barber will edit it and fill it with all of the previous unproven propaganda and bias tilt.
If it is once again edited, anyone can click on the history tab of the article page and see a neutral article vs any edits made by TB.
I am hoping that the moderators can see this and maybe accept this neutral article and lock it.
Thanks
ShenandoahShilohs 15:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Article 

message: So how about posting where we can find all of the health reports on your breeding stock (including outcrosses).  I am sure "Miles" would be very interested in those items too.
With respect,
Tony Matzke
Hi Tony,
You can do a search on the OFA web site, and for proof of Penn HIP just ask, I am sure any breeder using such would be happy to send you a copy, as well as thier UC Davis DNA results.
ShenandoahShilohs 16:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Gloria and Shenandoah  

message: As expected the neutral article fair to all keeps being changed back to the false, bias tilted article that has been in dispute.
We know by tracking the IP addy of the person editting who it is, and it is of course an ISSR person. Yes we know who the person is. 
So we can keep this childish game of editting and restoring going forever, or the moderators can take action.
ShenandoahShilohs 18:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moderators and all 

message: Tina Barber writes:
I did contact the CERF org & was informed that our breed is not even listed there! Of course, some people like using "big sounding" initials to give them some sense of credibility ... however, I choose NOT to fool the public with such BS! Shiloh Shepherds do not need to have their eyes tested for "Collie eye" ... instead they should be tested for things like SAS - EPI - etc.. that have devastated this breed!
Tina M. Barber Breed Founder''
This is the woman that claims so much knowledge and wants people to follow her and yet she makes claims like the above.
For the record CERF is an organization that certifies dogs eyes against a multitude of genetic eye disease. This is a link to thier web site explaining what they do:
http://www.vmdb.org/history.html
This link lists the different things that the veterinary ophthalmologists tests the dogs for:
http://www.vmdb.org/categories.html
As one can see, a great deal more than "Collie eye"
Some genetic eye diseases common to the GSD as well as the Shiloh are cataracts, corneal dystrophy and pannus.
CERF testing and certification is just one more step a breeder can take to certify thier breeding dogs clear of genetic disease.
Now, not sure who in the world Ms Barber spoke with to say that CERF does not recognize the Shiloh Shepherd, but they most clearly do, as seen by thier own web site and the Shilohs that are on that site as Certified.
http://www.vmdb.org/cerf2.html
Just scroll down under breeds to SHS-Shiloh Shepherd and then hit search and you will see that they most certainly do recognize this breed as evident by the Shiloh Shepherds listed.
This is just one more example showing that either MS Barber is in the total dark, or is still trying to deceive the general public as well as Wikipedia.
ShenandoahShilohs 21:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: Health 

message: This is to notify this group that since there seems to be no way that the ISSR posters will leave a factual, unbias article on the Shiloh Shepherd I have requested formal mediation from Wikipedia.
ShenandoahShilohs 21:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: To: ShenandoahShilohs
Thank you very much for providing some scientific resources re: the genetics of this breed. May I ask a question?  Do you feel that the Penn-Hip test will replace OFA at some point as the "definitive" test for hip dysplasia in the canine and Shiloh world AND do you see advantages/disadvantages to either methods of testing for Shiloh Shepherds in particular?  I ask this question because there is some debate (cost being one of them) in among the GSD breeding ranks.  Thank you. Miles Dùfy.
To M Dufy,
I personally feel that both OFA and Penn HIP are tools to help breeders. Is one better than the other? Each person seems to have thier own thoughts on that. I have seen great Penn HIP numbers on dogs only getting an OFA Fair. I have also seen great OFA scores on dogs with very high Penn HIP ratings. I have seen dogs with relatively tight Penn HIP numbers have DJD. There are always veriables.
My opinion is use whatever organization that you are comfortable with , but use something to certify your dogs hips.
ShenandoahShilohs 22:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headline text 

message: To: ShenandoahShilohs
Thank you for your kind response to my question...very refreshing.  Also, I am familiar with "cataracts" and "corneal dystrophy" in GSDs, but could you explain Pannus to me?  Also, what do you see as the most important genetic problems in the Shiloh Shepherd breed? Thank you. Miles Dùfy.
Miles,
Personally I still think that hips are a huge concern for our breed as well as most giant breeds. The next two conditions that worry me are bloat/torsion and gastro diseases such as EPI, Mega E and SIBO. Each illness affects people who's dogs succumb to them the most. Just like the GSD, the Shiloh does have some issues.
Here is a great article on Pannus, easy read.
http://www.eyevet.ca/pannus.html
ShenandoahShilohs 22:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headline text 

message: To: ShenandoahShilohs
Excellent, thank you very much.  Another question re: this breed if I may?  Re: personality, my experience with GSDs pursues a standard of, nobility, loyalty and courage with a slightly aloof personality.  There have been, of course, with the problems of over-breeding, some personality anomolies including extreme drive to the point of unacceptable aggression and some sharp-shy behavior.  Having read the Shiloh standard, and taking into consideration this is the ideal, do you see any genetic personality disorders arising or present in Shiloh Shepherds?    Thank you. Miles Dùfy.
Miles writes:
do you see any genetic personality disorders arising or present in Shiloh Shepherds?''
Response: not near as many as in some of thier owners LOL
Ok, on a serious note. I can't speak for all Shilohs, and temperament to one can mean something to another. From the majority of Shilohs I have been in contact with most are very sound. Some range from a higher ball drive to some you can't get off the couch. I would say that some of the outcross dogs seem to have a bit more of that "GSD drive", but not as severe.
Like with any breed there are extremes. I am not familiar with most of the ISSR dogs, but  with the Shilohs I am familiar with, most all fall into the true med soft temperament.'''
ShenandoahShilohs 23:15, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headline text 

message: Hi everyone,
As I previously posted we have asked Wikipedia to aide in mediation of this article.
This is a process where on a mediation site similiar to this both sides can present "thier" sides and an unbias person will try to mediate for a compromise and solution.
It is all public and people can view what each "side: is proposing.
I just read the site and see that the ISSR with spokesperson Tony Matzke, and Tina Barber, request to be the representatives for the ISSR and request that ALL mediation be done through "PRIVATE" e-mails, More proof of the secrecy of the ISSR.
Here is the link to the mediation page if anyone would like to follow the process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RFM#Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog
ShenandoahShilohs 15:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation Process 

message: I think that people are making some bad assumptions about the process of mediation and how the dispute resultion process works on wikipedia.
Arguing facts over on WP:RFM isn't going to help.    
The purpose of mediation is not for some admin to read both sides of an argument, decide which is the right one, then put the results up and lock down the  article like a judge in a trial would.    A mediator will work with the parties involved to reach agreement on the content of the article.
I suggest that everyone involved in this dispute read the following articles: 
:Wikipedia:Consensus
:Wikipedia:Administrators.    
:Wikipedia:Resolving disputes
:Wikipedia:Requests for comment
:Wikipedia:Mediation
:Wikipedia:Arbitration 
The end result of the process should be to have an article that both sides of the dispute agree is factually correct and not want to repeatedly edit.    The article should represent both sides view of what a SSD is in a neutral and non-inflammatory fashion, it should talk about the organizations surrounding the SSD in a neutral fashion as well.    There won't be any reference to which sides viewpoint is "correct" or who has the "real" SSD.
- Trysha (talk) 17:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: on mediation, and there are no moderators on wikipedia

message: Patti wrote;
CERF testing and certification is just one more step a breeder can take to certify thier breeding dogs clear of genetic disease.
Now, not sure who in the world Ms Barber spoke with to say that CERF does not recognize the Shiloh Shepherd, but they most clearly do, as seen by thier own web site and the Shilohs that are on that site as Certified.
http://www.vmdb.org/cerf2.html
Well let me assure you that 10 names listed as "Shilo" (note spelling) Shepherds, from various unknown registries does NOT represent a 'genepool' in anyone's book!  Furthermore, CERF is only good for ONE YEAR please take a look at the dates listed .. they have all expired a LONG time ago!
You may be able to fool some people with your silly acusations, but any real breeder can see right through your game!!  We all know that *just* OFA certs, etc. don't improve a breed ... yes they are a TOOL that should be used, right next to carrier charts, LMX data, RC reports, etc. etc.
I refuse to get into a major debate here, I have already written many articles on this subject, and maybe you should take some time to read them??
http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap.htm 
This forum is for discussing the BASIC HONEST BREED INFORMATION that is on the main page ... period!!
Tina M. Barber
_____________________________________________________________________________
Ok, well we are getting better. At least you have changed your story that CERF didn't recognize the Shiloh Shepherd to admitting they do.
Now lets try to get some more facts straight. You claim there are only 10 Shilohs listed where as there are 24. Of these unknown registries that you claim, 4 were from your own ISSR :-) As for them all being expired, wrong again. Many of the dogs no longer alive, or breeding, have expired, but there are 10 with current certifications.
Of course you refuse to get into a major debate as you continually show yourself to be wrong.
You answer everything by providing more links to your personally written propaganda, they are boring to say the least.
As for this forum discussing Honest breed info, we are still awaiting you to provide verifiable sources to your NPOV's. And by the way, links to articles you have written are not verifiable sources. Verifiable sources for claims like you have made on the health testing of hips, heart and elbows would be sites like say OFA.
ShenandoahShilohs 23:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CERF 

message: Please stop reverting the article -- a constantly changing article isn't helping anyone and those people involved may find themselves blocked as per the three revert rule.  Could we try discussing the issues, one at a time, here?  I would be happy to try to mediate any content disputes you may have.  Lets work together to make this article better.  Thanks. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 00:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments on the article/content dispute 

message: Ah Sandra, so glad you're no longer too embarrassed to post! I'm afraid you've missd the point here though. The original point was made that TB claimed that ISSR requires these health testings. Tina Barber has edited the article to claim that ISSR breeders have to do mandatory testing of hips heart and elbows. No other registry has claimed that. I don't understand what the point of your post is here. It has nothing to do with the content of the article. It just shows that no one requires it.
Gloria 01:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: health testing requirments

message: Attention: Sandra [[User:69.11.10.188|
When indicating "passing" in your statement above, could you please respond to the following questions re:the various registries you have referenced:
1)What do you mean by "passing". Do the registries disallow breeding of dogs who have higher than your indicated ratings?  How do the registries gather the individual scores of each of their breeding dogs? How do the registries "enforce" these requirements?
2) Could you state what testing organization(s)are accepted by each registry for these "passing" grades?  Your "grades" indicate they are probably OFA scores, but how are Penn-Hip scores treated in the registries, since this testing is also being used with Shiloh Shepherds, from what has been previously mentioned in this discussion?
3) What are your references for your gathered information; that is to say, what are the web page addresses for the various registries where this info is stated as required/enforced/recommended?
4) Most importantly, since the term "required" calls for a resource by which adherence to this "requirement" can be enforced, could you also please provide  the resources through which interested puppy buyers can confirm testing results for the individual dogs (or their parentage) they are interested in purchasing.  Whether claimed as required or not by whichever registries or breeders, these claims have no value (other than through "blind trust") to potential puppy buyers unless they have an opportunity to verify the results themselves through independent means.
In other words, if a reader wants to research the hip "grades" of the parents of a puppy they are considering buying (not generic group testing results) would you please indicate where that information can be found for each of the registries (NSBR, ISSR, TSSR)?  
 
Example: 
NSBR - Hip registration is primarily through OFA. To view OFA's hip information on NSBR dogs, please view website address www.xxxxxx.org"
AND
ISSR -  Hip registration is through OFA and Penn-Hip. To view OFA's hip information on ISSR dogs, please view website address www.xxxxxx.org. To view Penn-Hip's hip information on ISSR dogs, please view website address www.zzzzz.org"
AND
TSSR - Hip registration is conducted through XXXX, however individual results are provided to prospective and current puppy owners by submitting a Request for Health Results Form, available at www.TSSR.com/Request for Health info.
 
4)If verification of these requirements for the registries is not published nor can be obtained in writing, would you also please indicate this policy.
If you can only provide resource information for a registry you are affiliated with, I would then ask that other discussion participants (i.e. registry members or non-affiliated breeders) provide this information and their policies in answer to my requests above.
Thank you very kindly. M.Dùfy'''''
__________________________________________________________________________________
:Folks, this is not the place to discuss a particular breeder, their practices or policies.  This is a page about a dog breed.  Please keep the page on topic.  Thanks .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 02:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headline text 

message: This was what I meant to post on Tuesday evening; instead of doing so I thought my time was better spent spending time with my dogs...I have not read what has been posted since.  Nor will I.
 
Last Friday I posted a list of 7 or 8 things that I thought we should all be able to agree upon. Someone (post unsigned) noted that in stating the ISSDC had free membership, that it was only for its first year (which is now ending).  No one else (at least as of Tuesday) had disagreed. Perhaps this can be a start for the "history" section of this article if it even remains in existence. 
 
Karen, just because no one commented does not mean anyone agrees. Your facts were still very slanted and about Clubs, registries, etc. Your facts were not about what this article is supposed to be, a neutral article about the Shiloh Shepherd with respect to all. It is not another TB Bio, or a debate over Clubs or Registries.
What is not in dispute and a place to start is the fact that Tina Barber is the founder of the Shiloh Shepherd Breed.ShenandoahShilohs 04:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Accusations