Talk:Rebecca Heineman

message: I am not clear on why MOS identity does not apply here. The page states:
'An exception to this is made for terms relating to gender. In such cases we favor self-designation, even when source usage would indicate otherwise. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and " [sic]" may be used where necessary).'
Does her time of birth not count as a phase of her life? It is invasive and unnecessary to include trans people's birth names on their pages, especially as glaringly as they are. Girlsimulation (talk) 02:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth name 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Recently,  has asked to hear what editors think about the current situation regarding Becky's deadname. To avoid any residual issues in the previous section, I've opted to start a new one.
As the page currently stands (as of this edit) I believe everything is appropriate. Becky's former nicknames are mentioned in the "Other names" box, and her deadname is mentioned in the "Early life" section. Anyone doing research on Becky's contributions to gaming should have absolutely no issues finding information about the work under her deadname, as I believe it should be obvious to any researcher to look things up in both names. Being trans myself, I would prefer her deadname be mentioned only in a footnote (per MOS:IDINFO recommendation 2), making it less visible for casual readers (who will already see that Becky is trans, and have no need to find her deadname), yet still readily available for researchers. However, as I am a new editor, I will of course defer to more experienced editors regarding the MOS. TL;DR I take very little issue with the article's current naming (I don't know how to word this, apologies if you don't understand), and would be happy if it stayed the way it is. 3nk1namshub (talk) 21:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , see above. Guy (help!) 21:10, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I had not seen that when I made my edit. My apologies. 3nk1namshub (talk) 21:15, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

text: I don't think the article is awful as it stands.  I appreciate that you have come around to the idea that the deadname can be mentioned in the body of the article even if its not your first preference.  I still think the January 2020 version of the article is the best way to go.  I realize the leap from "William" to "Bill" is not a large one in English, but I do think its appropriate to include Bill in there as the name of attribution on most of her work.  Whether or not that is in the lead does not concern me. I think this approach still falls in line nicely with MOSIDINFO and the Wendy Carlos example therein.  If others disagree, that's fine.  Its really only a minor preference.  Of course the name is still in the infobox, and maybe that's good enough. The important thing to me is that we not erase the deadname or hide it in a footnote or infobox as something a casual reader should not see. She was published under the deadname, and it was her public persona for the first two decades of her professional life. Therefore, it is not just a piece of trivia. Indrian (talk) 21:22, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , absolutely not. Your edits were unacceptable. Note how infrequently the article on Carlos mentions her deadname, in quite a long article on someone who was dramatically more famous under her deadname than Heineman. Guy (help!) 21:48, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, so we are back to unbridled hostility.  Got it.  This is a talk page discussion.  I have stated my opinion calmly, civilly, and without judgement as to the opinion of others.  I have also pledged not to make changes without consensus.  I fail to see how your statement helps the discussion in any way. Indrian (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and in a final bit of irony, the January 2020 edits that I restored were not even mine!  They were made by an anon and trans ally attempting to reach a compromise and were sadly underexamined by me at the time.  So misplaced hostility as regards editor intent for the win I guess. Indrian (talk) 22:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

text: , no, we're back to me explaining how Wikipedia policy works. Feel free to ignore that, but expect it to go badly for you if you do. Guy (help!) 23:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: And threats.  Still not seeing how you are helping.  No one here is projecting any hostility at this moment nor edging close to violating any Wikipedia policies but you. I would remind you of Wikipedia's civility policies, but I realize that as an admin you already know them and are merely choosing to ignore them. We've all been there at some point (lord knows, I have!), but right now, you are staking out that particular island all by yourself. I am sorry you feel the need to derail a productive conversation after it finally got on to the right track after much drama (in large part caused by me of course). In the interest of not letting this thread get hijacked any further, this will be my last response on the topic of your current boorishness. Happy editing! Indrian (talk) 23:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , sure, you can dismiss explanations of policy as not constituting "help". Let me know how that works out for you. Guy (help!) 09:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

text: I have to agree with the above. Anyone searching for Bill Heineman will be extremely confused to end up at an article that's seemingly about someone else entirely. Once in the lead should take care of that, and since anything in the lead needs to be somewhere in the body once quickly in the early life paragraph. What policy forbids that? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

text: Active bullshit. It doesn't matter what RS say about the matter, just the person who is being deadnamed. I cannot find anywhere that shows Rebecca still going by her old name. Per BLP I'm removing this info from the article till a consensus is reached. Valeince (talk) 18:56, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

text: OH and the classic "I have a black friend, so I can't be racist" crap by W.K.W.W.K above should be ignored. Valeince (talk) 19:02, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  "It doesn't matter what RS says about the matter"?  I think you should go back and read up on, it sure does, especially when a living person is involved.  About that second comment, I don't really care what you say about me, see, I believe in freedom of speech, which means, I might not like what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it. W.K.W.W.K...Toss a coin to the witcher, ye valley of plenty 20:44, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Consensus was reached months ago.  You are a little late.  The above two comments only strengthen said consensus.  Everything here conforms to Wikipedia policy.  Figures who were notable under a deadname have that name included.  She was known by the name throughout the significant period of her professional career.  It's in multiple reliable sources and is not a great secret being outed.  Its included once to complete the historical record, which is allowable under policy.  Your crude language and love of burying history does not trump that. Your hate, prejudice, and intolerance are showing, and it's honestly off putting. Indrian (talk) 19:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Lol my hate and prejudice? Intolerance? For what? Trying to uphold BLP when is comes to trans individuals? Please enlighten me where those descriptors come from. Valeince (talk) 19:08, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually don't bother, I'm obviously trying to enforce my own views on the matter, thinking it aligned with BLP, but if other editors disagree, which I guess it shows above, I'll apologize for the tone and bow out. Valeince (talk) 19:11, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: So the more I look into this, the more I think it probably is appropriate to include the former name, but I would vote for once, in the infobox, and not with associated nicknames (I don't think they're particularly notable?).  From there, the paragraph on dysphoria can take over.  Does that seem reasonable? Dumuzid (talk) 19:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Burger Bill is notable because that was a common nickname among colleagues and its origin (how she kept old burgers in her desk and would randomly pull them out to munch on them) gets discussed in most interviews with her in reliable sources.  Just plain Bill is not strictly necessary since it's an obvious derivative of William.  The name should be in the article body because of its longstanding use in her career.  Once is fine, but just putting it in the infobox serves to obfuscate a basic fact.  We don't need to hammer it incessantly, but it is notable enough for inclusion in the body, and our naming policies allow this. Indrian (talk) 19:20, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I am okay with it once in the body -- but I still don't see a real rationale for "Burger Bill."  While it may have been common among colleagues, it doesn't seem notable in a Wikipedia sense.  My brief investigation only showed this page as mentioning it.  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:05, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think I see the problem here.  The nickname has never really been "Burger Bill" or "Burger Becky," but rather just "Burger."  If you do a search for "Burger" and "Heineman" (as two separate terms, not a phrase) I think you will find more hits.  The easiest way to fix this is just put Burger in the infobox rather than attaching it to a first name. Indrian (talk) 21:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't have time to look in to it now, but that doesn't seem objectionable.  Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 21:24, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: So how do we resolve the fact that Bill Heineman redirects to this article? Readers need to know they're at the page they're looking for, obliquely referring to it with a little wink-wink nod-nod is unhelpful. See how the article on Laura Jane Grace handles this. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The full birth name is still in the body of the article.  I just took "Burger Bill" (and Burger Becky) out of the infobox because the actual nickname was just Burger. I think on the English Wikipedia, the jump from William to Bill is a pretty small one and follows logically.  I did advocate for "Bill" to appear once in the article too so there would be no chance of confusion, but I think consensus is against that at the moment. Indrian (talk) 22:05, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

text: , No idea. all I care about is that the name is not included unless there are substantial RS that include it, and if it is included, it is included only minimally. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding names 

message: Around 2003, Heineman began transitioning to a woman 77.191.160.35 (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  Seagull123  Φ  20:10, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2020 

message: To head off another completely pointless name edit war on this page, here is the full story of the Burger nickname as told by Heinemann to Matt Barton.  See Gamasutra for the full interview.
I've been holding off on this question for awhile, but I have to know. How'd you get to be called "Burger"?
RH: Remember when I told you I was flat broke? When we founded Interplay, we didn't pay ourselves much. We were starving. When I was at Boone Corporation, I was being paid twelve thousand a year. Slave wages. I was a kid; I didn't know any better. My entire life was get up, go to work, work until I'm too tired, sleep, repeat. Didn't have time for cooking, and I didn't have any money.
There was a place called Hamburger Stand. They sold 29 cent hamburgers. Since I spent most of my time at the office, I didn't want to walk over, buy a burger, and walk back.
So I'd buy a bag of twenty of them. Blow six bucks, get twenty burgers, go to my office, and put them in a drawer. I was too cheap to buy a refrigerator -- well, really too broke. Every so often I'd open the drawer and eat a burger.
I had an office mate who was a health food nut, constantly complaining about how I should eat right, exercise like he did. One day I was working all through the night. I didn't leave. It's the morning, and he comes in, sits across from me. I'm still working.
Around 3 p.m., I'm done. Burger time! I pull open the drawer, reach in, put the bag down, grab a burger, and start munching. Wasn't thinking anything about it. That's when my co-worker looks at me, looks back, looks at me -- and it dawns on him that the bag has been there for who knows how long. Those burgers are pretty firm.
He just loses it. He jumps up, his chair goes flying, he goes, "That burger is insane! That burger is insane!" He runs out. I'm sitting there like, "What's with him? Whatever." Then later Brian Fargo comes in and asks what I did to him. I didn't do anything. What's going on? My co-worker had gone to the restroom and tossed his cookies. That's how disgusted he was.
So then, the rumor started. "Did you eat any burgers lately?" So they started calling me Burger. I played along. "Okay, I'll get a burger. I'll eat a burger." Later on, unbeknownst to anybody, I had an issue with the name I was given at birth. So I would rather be called Burger than by that birth name. "Just call me burger." For the next twenty years, that was my name. Everybody called me Burger. Now my name is Becky. I finally shed the name Burger.
So yeah, Burger was a standalone nickname. Indrian (talk) 17:30, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Burger Nickname