Talk:Angeles City/Archive 1

message: The article on Angeles City, Pampanga, Philippines and its associated discussion page has been suffering a rash of vandalism by an  Australian activist, Susan Bryce, a leftist  "muckraker" who insists that this town, known for bars and nightclubs from it's old Clark Air Force Base days is the center of some nefarious sex slavery and murder ring.  Not only has she posted a wide variety of unsubstantiated claims, but what little evidence she cites comes from poorly documented or flatly untrustworthy sources.....or items taken wholly out of context or which fail to support her claims.  To add insult to injury, she has repeatedly remove the discussion comments of others, to insert her own silliness and insults on the editing page in violation of all Wiki rules and customs.
She repeatably has tried to block insert a nonsense text claiming hundreds of thousands of enslaved women work in and are killed in the brothels of Angeles City, number that do not square with either with census figures or common sense.  Yes, there is prostitution in AC. There has been since the US military built the airbase. Doubtless there may be some exploitation of women...  And now that the town has found a cash-cow in catering to foreign sex tourists from the US, EU, Japan, and Korea, they've kept it alive in a variety of nightclubs, bars, and hotels that cater to foreign tourists.  It however is a government regulated "Grey trade" in that prostitution is mildly illegal (pimping rather more so), but the bar girls (Guest Relations Officers, or GRO's in the local lingo)  are required to be licensed and health inspected weekly.  And those engaging underage girls risk VERY real jail time or having their business closed down. Some do wind up in forms of debt peonage or having most of their money taken by bar owners and "mama-sans," but that's rather different than Susan's slavery claims. Not pretty, but infinitely better than the real sex slavery going on in Thailand, India, Turkey, and Eastern Europe.
Some of the nonsense Susan has repeatedly inserted include claims that:
A woman or Child is raped or killed on average every six seconds in Angeles.The bodies of these dead women and children are dumped in the fields known as the "Killing Fields of Angeles".petitiononline.com/44441212/petition 
This would mean that 10 are raped or killed a minute, 600 an hour, 14,400 a day, or a more than 5.25 MILLION a year.  Even if that's only one murder for every 99 rapes, that still means more than 50,000 murders a year.  That's more murders in one medium-sized town than the Philippines reported in the entire country in the last 5 years. (http://www.pnp.gov.ph)  The best part...  Her cited "source" for this "fact" is an on-line petition SHE WROTE HERSELF.  You gotta love that chutzpah!
Altough the exact figure of children held captive in forced prostitution in Angeles is difficult to establish, the figure is estimated at between 40,000 to 100,000.Philippines Foreign Minister, Domingo Siazon, Robin Cook, "Clampdown on child sex tourism," BBC News UK
So either the PI government is grossly wrong in their 2000 census, or  between 22% and 37% of the total recorded population of the town are prostituted children!!!  Mind you, that on top of her claims of nearly 200,000 ADULT prostitutes... numbers which taken together exceed the total recorded population of the town.   Moreover, the article "cited" by Susan doesn't back her claims (see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/72622.stm ) where the BBC article says: "Mr Siazon said up to 40,000 Filipino children were involved in child prostitution."  Not "in Angeles City," but in sum toto.  So where does Susan get her additional 60,000 children from?  Her fertile imagination? And why exactly is she sure that all Philippine child prostitutes are in Angeles City?
So what can be done to put a stop to this vandalism?
--Mlshanks 06:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Sex Slavery and Human Trafficking in Angeles, Philippines where unverified claims have been removed. What remains is still a pretty alarming picture of rich western sex tourists exploiting an awful lot of children. See the UNICEF quote of the Philippines Department of Social Welfare and Development that "anywhere from 60,000 to 600,000 streetchildren are victims of child prostitution" in the Philippines as a whole while Angeles City is regarded as one of the country's top five spots for child prostitution. That doesn't read to me like a nice orderly place where the workers are "licensed and health inspected weekly". Phaedrus86 07:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Susan Bryce

message: in order to clear up what may be some false presumptions i thought i would give some background info on what we are discussing here. i'm not suggesting this info be input into the article as most of it would probably fall into the category of personal research but it may help other editors get a more clear picture of what we are discussing here.
Angeles has go-go bars. It has lots of them. i've seen estimates of about 200 but i think this is a bit inflated or may be including things like restaurants in the numbers. my personal guess is its somewhere near the 125 to 150 range. some organizations attempt to pass these off as brothels. almost all of the bigger and more popular bars are located on a very small stretch of road. this main area is probably less than 500m in length. interspersed with the bars are other things like hotels and restaurants. this area is usually described as The Entertainment District or Fields Avenue. actually, i think it is really field avenue but everyone adds the "s". i am assuming it was named for being adjacent to the entrance of the airfield. further away from the entertainment district the same road changes names to be perimeter road (now running along the perimter of the base). also it is called don juanico (not sure of the exact spelling).
sometimes owners will own just one bar and sometimes they will own several. among the groups that own several there are korean owners, american owners, german owners, british owners, irish owners and australian owners. the bars in the entertainment district tend to be slightly bigger and employ more girls. each bar may employee from around 30 girls up to slightly over 100 girls in this area. along perimeter road where the bars are smaller they probably employ about 15 girls, both dancers and waitresses or sometimes only waitresses. there is no nudity in the bars. the girls dance in bikinis. most bars have doorgirls outside the bar dressed in tight fitting uniforms calling customers into their bar. almost every business (i cant stress "every" enough) in the philippines, including 7-11, mcdonalds and local businesses have armed guards in front of their establishments. a large number of bars have them also but they are generally not armed. probably a good idea not to mix drunk people with guns in the vicinity. these may be the source of "the girls are kept there by armed guards" statements. 
to give you an example of a bars procedures i will use one of the german bars as an example only because they havent been argued about yet and i am familiar with their policies as my fiance's cousin is a waitress there. generally speaking the bars make money by providing customers with something attractive to look at while they drink inflated priced beer. the current exchange rate is about 46 pesos to one dollar. a beer costs 85p. for comparison, in a store the same bottle of beer would be about 20p. 
if a customer wishes to talk to a girl and spend a little time perhaps cuddling with her he can buy her a ladies drink. this is usually something such as sprite or iced tea in a wine glass. the girl gets a commission of 50p for selling a ladies drink on top of her normal salary which is in the 150p to 200p a day range. admittedly this is a very small amount of money when you convert to US dollars but i caution you that its not really accurate to do that. the correct context would be to keep her salary in the context of what the average filipino makes, which is in the 4000p to 5000p a month range. most workers here work 6 days a week.
now for the good stuff. this is where the accusations of prostitution come in. let me start off by saying that if a girl does not wish to sit with a customer she can refuse. this does happen but generally speaking the girls want a ladies drink unless the guy is very drunk, very rude or looks like he hasnt showered in a few days. age of the guy does not seem to be an important part of their decision process although race might be, depending on the girl. during the ladies drink the girl will often cuddle next to you, lean up against you and generally act like your girlfriend although kissing is not part of the deal. the happier she makes you the better her chance of getting a second ladies drink from you.
there have been various formulas for the following, which is generally referred to as a barfine, but this is how the current process is working. barfines are technically illegal and imply payment for sexual services. currently the girls have a quota of 12 ladies drinks a day. if they reach this quota they are free to leave the bar as their shift will now be considered finished. if you do the math you will see that ladies drinks are 150p, the girls gets 50p of that and the bar gets 100p. the 12 ladies drinks are 1200p in income. it is possible to pay the bar the 12 drinks all at once and the girl will be free to leave with you if she chooses. this is what was quoted as "buying a girl" (which brings images of slavery to mind) in one of the citations.
now i hope to make it clear that not all the girls working in the bars are prostitutes. certainly some girls will provide sexual services for money if you take them out from their work. there are other girls that will go home with you for "sleeping only" which means cuddling and kissing but no sex. some girls will only go out for "barhopping only" which means she will go with you to other bars and be your trophy girl. if you ask me its a bit like bringing a bucket of sand to the beach but apparently some guys like this.
as far as the accusations of underage girls in the clubs its simply not true. in order to work in a bar you need a health certificate and your license must be available for inspection. the license is a small pink card (sometimes accompanied with a green health insurance card) usually worn near the hip of the girl or worn on a necklace type string. its probably similar in design and size to many company ID cards everyone is familiar with. it contains their picture, official government stamps, their birth date and for some bizarre reason their home address. in order to obtain this license to work in a bar the girls must go to the NBI (philippine FBI) and get clearance. they need to register their original birth certificate and get fingerprinted. if all is in order the NBI will clear them for work. naturally, they do not clear underage girls. these rules get refined from time to time. i believe the fingerprinting was introduced in the last few years. certainly all the safeguards to prevent underage workers in the bars that are present now were not present back in the early 90's when many underage accusations were made. the girls need to go to weekly checkups in order to maintain the validity of their license. Virgins, which account for probably 10 to 25% of the girls depending on the bar, need to get checked up only once a month. their license number coincidently always starts with the letter V. i know many virgins working in the bars that are well into their 20s and one i know will celebrate her 30th birthday next month. she is still waiting, as many girls here do, for the right foreigner to come and sweep her off her feet. as far one reporter saying in a citation an 18 year old girl appears to be 12 it is clear that they need vision correction. while asian girls generally appear younger and smaller than western girls it is very difficult to look prepubescent even for an asian 18 year old.
so i hope this brings into focus more clearly the situation we are talking about here. you can see why the estimates of the numbers of prostitutes vary greatly as their really is no way to judge who will have sex for money and who won't. some estimates simply assume all bar girls are prostitutes and other estimates are just so outrageous that one wonders what color the sky is in their world. RodentofDeath 03:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: background for editors

message: Okay, here's what the current one reads:
The economy of Angeles City has accelerated in the past decade, driven by advances in global communication technology, the establishment of fine restaurants and luxary hotels/resorts and the finishing of a road, such as the Subic-Clark-Tarlac Expressway, that has tremendously improved trade and transport. It has a cottage that includes rattan furniture production. It also includes the production of coconuts, charcoal and briquettes.
Call Centers in Clark, namely AOL, CyberCity, and Sutherland, and other American IT industries are major employers as well. The establishment of a number of shopping malls also fueled the city's economy, including SM City - Clark, Robinson's Place, Jenra Grand Mall, Nepo Mall, Saver's Mall and the proposed Ayala Shopping Mall, next to the City Hall.
Here's RodentofDeath's proposed revision:
The Entertainment District of angeles city near the entrance of the former clark air base, which in the past was known as a place for filipinas to meet young american GIs and for prostitution, has transformed itself into a lively and mostly adult oriented tourist destination with well over 100 go-go bars, discos and world class restaurants employing thousands of locals. The area has many new hotels with still more being constructed along with several large condominium projects underway. some critics claim the go-go bars are fronts for illegal prostitution, including child prostitution. there have been at least two arrests and convictions of bar management that support this theory.
I would try and split the difference:
The economy of Angeles City has accelerated in the past decade, driven by advances in global communication technology, the establishment of fine restaurants and luxary hotels/resorts and the finishing of a road, such as the Subic-Clark-Tarlac Expressway, that has tremendously improved trade and transport. The entertainment district of Angeles City has also been revitalized.  Located near the entrance of the former Clark Air Force Base, it was was known as a place for Filipinas to meet young american GIs and for prostitution, but now boasts an adult-oriented tourist destination with go-go bars, discos and restaurants employing thousands of locals.  The area also has many hotels, and a number of large development projects are still underway.  However, the area still draw criticism, with many human rights groups claiming the go-go bars are fronts for a variety of illegal activities, especially child prostitution. There have been a number of arrests and convictions of bar management that support this theory, along with a series of inquiries by various NGOs and governments.
Any more suggestions?  --Haemo 02:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Angeles is known for its world-class furniture business and IT industry.  Aren't we supposed to include the rest of what it previously states there in the Economy section?  I believe they're also worth mentioning in this section.  Thanks! Ikabod08 02:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: seems we're getting someplace to me. i'd be interested to hear any objections. certainly Ikabod has a point that it is more known for the furniture industry than for prostitution although not many people find furniture news articles riveting. there may not be as much press on that. i personally would rather see the one line as "There have been some arrests and convictions" than "There have been a number of arrests and convictions" since the number of documented cases seems to be as low as two in the last ten years. i have no problem with the "series of inquiries" part. that looks reasonable. RodentofDeath 05:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, let's get some sources and citations for these different things - especially the furniture thing.  Just list below one ref for each fact, or so, I've asserted in the paragraph, and we'll work on what to include, and how.  --Haemo 06:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed revision for section 

message: the flying eye hospital has been to angeles a total of one time. does that make it notable? also, my business in new jersey provides distance learning to approximately 500 people so i can get it listed here too? actually, now that i think about it wouldnt just about any NGO provide you with information that can be considered "distance learning"?? i just called the US embassy a few minutes ago and learned quite a few things. does that make them active in angeles too?
PREDA is not active in angeles and has not been for a few years. they are located over an hour and a half away in Olongapo.
lets be honest here. there is an agenda being pushed to get certain organizations listed here to further a documented smear campaign against angeles. i would caution editors to be wary of information introduced into this article, where it comes from and what it's purpose of being put here is. RodentofDeath 20:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. For the first time I'm hearing reasons not to include these specific organizations. I'm pretty sure it's the first time I've heard a reason other than susan bryce is DESTROYING ANGELES!!!. / edg ☺ ★ 04:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it was discussed before here (and probably a few other places). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Angeles_City/Archive_4#More_over-inflated_opinions_removed. RodentofDeath 04:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: flying eye hospital and preda

message: I have around 12,000 photos of Angeles, some dating back as far as 40 years that were passed down from my mother. Around 800 are of the mount pinatubo explosion, i was one of the few that stayed behind and i have almost every area covered in these pics. I believe it is probably the pargest historical collection of photos in Angeles.
If it 100% meets everyones approval, im thinking of adding them all to a website and ading the link and a short paragraph about the collection here on Wikipedia.
There is nothing controversial here, and RodentofDeath can even write the paragraph if he likes and ill give everyone 100% veto on any photo that dont want shown.
This is an important collection and I hope we can get some bipartison support on this project if people want help. Kind Regards.Susanbryce 20:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds interesting, Susan.  How would we get to see those pics?  Please do so to make this entry a better one.  Enough of the prostitution thing, please?  Maybe we can assign Rodent to make captions for them.  How about that, Rodent? ;-) Ikabod08 19:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  @ Susanbryce - I would definitely be interested in seeing them - especially the ones which show Fields avenue the way it was in 1950 / 60 / 70 / 80. If you could post them on a blog, it would allow all of us to comment on them for suitability. The best would be to have a " Then and Now" perspective. Notthebestusername (talk) 02:44, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical Photos of Angeles

message: Re Susan Bryces lies on the sex slave camps of Angeles - Friday, July 20, 2007 Cop chief denies sex slave camp in Angeles By Reynaldo G. Navales
ANGELES CITY -- Police Chief Sonny Cunanan said there is no truth to reports that a prostitution slave camp exists in Angeles City. In his letter to Sun.Star Pampanga, Cunanan said: "Be informed that this office (Angeles City Police Office) strongly disclaimed any illegal activity such as a slave camp within Angeles City." He said the Women's and Children's Concerned Section (WCCS) and other agencies of the Angeles City Government that are responsible for the regular inspection of different bars and nightclubs have no records about the existence of a sex slave camp in the city.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.132.173.232 (talk • contribs) flogging User:RodentofDeath's dead horse at 00:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: so who wrote the "flogging rodentofdeath's dead horse"?? that isnt' assuming good faith or being civil. you should be ashamed of yourself. RodentofDeath 15:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gosh I'm sorry. Thanks for holding me to such high standards. / edg ☺ ★ 18:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Once again, I'm terribly, terribly sorry for interrupting your campaign of personal attacks. / edg ☺ ★ 20:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: where is the personal attack? if someone is running a smear campaign to the point where it gets the attention of a federal senator senator then has newspaper articles in print its not personal. it is part of the overall picture. a very big part. can you imagine somebody saying there were 150,000 prostitutes in pennington, nj with their smear campaign?? the campaign then gets senator clinton's attention enough that she writes a press release and the media picks up the story?? personal are attacks are things like "your mother wears army boots" not news stories. this is news directly related to this article. the fact that the person in the news story is also trying to edit this page just verifies the story is true. RodentofDeath 04:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't believe anyone could read this page and not observe personal attacks. Would you consent to a Request for Comment on this? If the result of that Request for Comment is that the constant accusation and invective directed at one editor are in fact personal attacks, would you then refrain from doing so, and stop defending other editors' comments? / edg ☺ ★ 04:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

text: if someone has a documented agenda then how is saying so a personal attack? you can have anyone comment on it you wish. the fact is that the editor here has a conflict of interest and has had newspaper articles written about the smear campaign they are running. RodentofDeath 07:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This funny... Angeles is a place that most tourists come to for sex. full stop. Anyone who has visited it can see this. Yes - it has a few other tourism spots (like Nayong Filipino, Zoocobia.. et al) - but they are few, less popular and far less visited. Notthebestusername (talk) 02:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  just wanna copy and paste this on the header...not sure where this came from but just a reminder... 

message: I removed "first class, highly urbanized" from the lead discription, as it seems that the wikified link seems to sufice. Is their a source that describes this city as such? I admitt that I am editing this article from a limited knowledge of this part of the world but I am also NPOV. Thanks! --Tom 12:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's how all entries of the other cities in the Philippines are described and Angeles has been classified as first class, highly urbanized based on its annual income.  Thanks! Ikabod08 14:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We should add a coma? Is that sourceable? I haven't looked at the other cities but I will. What is "first class". I will not revert for now but will research this further. Thanks for your response, --Tom 15:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I sourced this to gov.ph. Added "locally classfied as" language to clue readers that Angeles is not being compared to Paris, cf. more widely-known international standards such as Global city. / edg ☺ ★ 20:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work and thank you! --Tom 14:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead sentence

message: Incidentally, most of the new information going into this article is (disputes aside) well-sourced. The mostly-unsourced sections currently include History, Economy and Notable Angeleños. If someone could take the time to Google up some sources for the statements in those sections, we could remove the ugly  tag. / edg ☺ ★ 21:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK...will do the job for the Notable Angeleños and Economy section.  Thanks! Ikabod08 00:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you sir! / edg ☺ ★ 02:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Nice work.  removed. / edg ☺ ★ 10:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsourced sections

message: as a resident, i have never heard of angeles being called the "las vegas of the philippines". i was wondering if anyone else has heard of this or knows of any more references other than something that seems to be an advertisement for Casino Filipino. RodentofDeath 16:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is spam. If it gets re-inserted, kill it dead! / edg ☺ ★ 20:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Casino city spam link

message: Can we just remove the Welfare and NGO section since there's not much quite a significant number of it to state here in this section?  I don't find it relevant at all if we only see 3 of them in the list.  Any thoughts? Ikabod08 16:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: i certainly have no problem with it. the welfare section was inserted earlier with an apparent agenda to make angeles look bad. it had phrases like "there are an enormous amount of welfare groups in this slum city due to the brutal sex slavery trade here." Once we removed the distortions and lies this section no longer seems notable. i realize there's quite a bit of archived talk section but perhaps you will find this part interesting... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Angeles_City/Archive_4#More_over-inflated_opinions_removed. RodentofDeath 03:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can we just remove the Welfare and NGO section? 

message: There is a discussion regarding the removal of the word "city" from the article titles of Philippine cities.  This may imminently affect the article name for .  For city names which are not unique, disambiguation alternatives are also being presented.  Formal request for page move may follow after a reasonable time of discussion.  If you wish to participate, please post your comments here.  --JinJian (talk) 05:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: <Cityname> 
<City>


message: JinJian (talk) 06:13, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move (2010)

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lucena City which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RM bot 06:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: A certain gonzo from Mabalacat persists on inserting Mabalacat to every line that mentions Clark Freeport/Special Economic Zone and Diosdado Macapagal International Airport as if he is stressing entire location of both are in his town when, as a matter of fact, Republic Act 9400 clearly states  "CSEZ includes the former U.S. Clark Air Base and its extensions located within Angeles City, municipalities of Mabalacat and Porac in Pampanga and the municipality of Capas in Tarlac." A link would help you further understand what I am stressing here: http://www.bakermckenzie.com/files/Uploads/Documents/Supporting%20Your%20Business/Global%20Markets%20QRGs/DBI%20Philippines/bk_dbi_philippines_incentivesunderspecialregistrations.pdf
He claims entire airport is in Mabalacat when international websites and credible sources, such as Philippine Star, would posit otherwise, yet he ignores it and blatantly deletes all links to support this fact by replacing it with some articles from a tabloid, such as Sun Star Pampanga, an author of which is from his hometown. Additionally, he himself recognizes that "a part" of airport is in Mabalacat, therefore he is aware of the fact that it's partly Angeles as well. That is basically the reason why the old article mentioned neither Angeles nor Mabalacat, to prevent possible dispute. But he seems to love to stir up a spat on contributors despite reminding him to talk it out on this page prior to fussing and derailing with his unending rudeness. Mnemonicksg (talk) 22:33, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  One Mabalacat advocate keeps on editing this entry re: DMIA's and Clark Freeport's location 

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