Talk:Anime/Archive 8

message: One Piece isn't an anime that was edited heavly because of what year it came to America. It was edited because of 4Kids entertainment intent to use it as a child's show. 4Kids has never used a "light touch". A Gigantic Panda 05:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the deal.  That was generally the case with distribution companies early on.  Particularly in the 1980's and early 1990's.  Sailor Moon has been a prime example of that editing. KyuuA4 04:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Licencing

message: How much has that influenced in importing of anime over the years? (if it ever had an effect at all) KyuuA4 17:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: US-Japanese partnership

message: Do you people think that we could protect this page from people who don't log in? This page is vandalized a LOT, and I almost always by people who don't log in. In light of this, I think it would be good if we protected the page from those who didn't log in. What do you think? Fiction Alchemist 04:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can request to semi-protect this article on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection to block anonymous edits. Be warned, however, if this article experiences anonymous vandal edits at a rate of only one per day, that is often deemed below whatever arbitrary threshold exists for semi-protection. It depends on which admin reviews the request. =Axlq 06:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: IMO, there just isn't enough vandalism taking place to require simi-protection. --TheFarix (Talk) 13:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protection

message: The Notable lists have been replaced with the Category pages as per discussion. Benjwong 21:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: End of Notable Lists

message: I was thinking this sentence "Anime is often influenced by Japanese comics known as manga." Would read better and be more accurate as something more like this. "Anime often draws influence from manga and light novels."
I don't really see the need to explain that manga is the japanese word for comic in the anime article, and this way you can also add in another major print media influence, light novels without the sentence sounding weird. Could probably go even a bit further and say it's not only influenced by, but often directly adapted from those sources. Anybody object to this change or have a comment?Mdgeist747 19:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, there's plenty to object to that. I don't know how long you've been following anime, but anime's hardly been influenced by light novels. If anything, light novel authors have grown up watching anime, but there's hardly any anime creator who's grown up reading light novels. At most, light novels have become source material for recent anime shows, and I'll emphasize that this is a very recent trend. And it comes from major light novel publishers like Kadokawa Shoten financing the production of anime shows based on their light novel titles so as to promote the sales of books and related merchandise. You should look at who's putting up the money to get shows made before you start speculating about influences.--68.183.156.42 08:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Slight change to Second paragraph ok?

message: I remember seeing a list of notable anime a few months back that had all of the most popular anime arranged by genre. I thought that that was a really good and effective way of presenting it, as well as something I've never seen before on any other anime site. I was thinking that this could be taken a step further for those who are interested:
Why not have a similar list of notable anime per genre, but also have it arranged by release date? Not only that, but let there be an "expand option" that lists not only the most popular anime, but all anime of that genre. I think that would be very very cool.  — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.205.135.176 (talk) 21:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was deleted because it was an attempt to recreate the deleted List of anime through the back door. On top of that, an anime wouldn't have an article in the first place if it wasn't notable. And lastly, what genre an anime is in can be a very contentious issue which often leads to original research. For instance, Tokyopop labels Tsukuyomi -Moon Phase- as a fantasy, however, I've seen people label it as horror because the antagonists and the "hero girl" are vampires. --Farix (Talk) 17:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Better lists

message: ...Because it sure does not look like it. At all. The whole article is a gaudy praise of japanese animation, with no mention whatsoever of the criticisms that are commonly levied at it on message boards or blogs all over the net. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.33.24.131 (talk • contribs).
Either include that and make it NPOV, or erase the article.
:Message boards and blogs are not reliable sources. _dk 15:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the article does not praise, but explains. --Farix (Talk) 21:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this NPOV?

message: Loveless is given as an example of yaoi in the "Anime" article. But in the Loveless article it is called shonen-ai. (which is better) Yaoi is much more sexual in nature, and though Loveless has some gender-bending/boylove themes, I don't think it can be considered yaoi.
--Memantiga 19:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Loveless

message: Wikipe-tan's current image caption simply reads "An example of the anime drawing style". I know we can't put Wikipe-tan's name in there (for self referential reasons), but shouldn't it say something like "A typical anime [character/style/drawing technique/aesthetic] features [list notable stylistic features here]..."? (I'm not sure how to phrase it myself.) This would make the image's presence in the article more relevant, as it would illustrate the notable stylistic features mentioned in the image caption. --Ppk01 22:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We can link to Wikipe-tan if we use a full URL. WP:SELF is actually more a style guide that gives consideration to down-stream use of our content. -- Ned Scott 07:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipe-tan Image Caption Expansion Request (please) 

message: I think it is time that the terminology section be given a though review with terms either being removed, moved to the See Also section, or integrated into the artical text. I have already done some moving around, editing, and removed some of the terms that do appear in the artical text, but some of the other terms do warent discussion:
* Catgirl - Should be worked into the text of the article text or removed, barely relevent
* Lemons and Limes - Irrelevent as it is not even mentioned on the fanfic page
* Japanese television dramas - Relevent, should either be under See Also, or mentioned in text (i.e. 'Some animes are considered to be in the caterogry of Japanese televetion dramas...')
* Eroge - Irrelevent to anime as a whole, move to the hentai page
* EroGuro - Irrelevent to anime as a whole, move to the hentai page
* Lolicon - Irrelevent to anime as a whole, move to the hentai page
* ONA - Relevent, but would make more sense on the OVA page
* Shota - Irrelevent to anime as a whole, move to the hentai page
Let the discussion begin! --Darkstar949 18:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: perhaps all terminology could be removed and instead :Category:Anime and manga terminology be placed in see also section? --Squilibob 06:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's actually a good idea, pretty much everything that is left in the terminology is mentioned on that page and it would make sense to have a link to it under See Also. --Darkstar949 15:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See Also and Terminology sections 

message: However, some anime are co-productions with non-Japanese companies like the Cartoon Network. Thus, anime is no longer specific to the Japanese market.
This passage is pretty much referring to "Demashita! Powerpuff Girls Z", and I would like to link it to the relevant article. I tried to do it myself but I could not get the coding to work correctly, what with the spaces in the article title and all. --Ihmhi 04:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They also did it with The Big O. -- Ned Scott 05:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But that was after the Japanese had created the series, not explicitly funding it for creation. They asked them to end the series.--Hitsuji Kinno 02:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The point being? It's still a co-production between a Japanese company and a non-Japanese company. -- Ned Scott 03:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: And the Bubblegum Crisis TV series. --Farix (Talk) 10:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And Immortal Grand Prix, the non-"microseries" of the two produced. But "anime" is a Japanese word borrowed from English and then shortened as is common in the language, and means all "animation" anyway. So it always never meant only "cartoons or animation from Japan". Well, until people in the US re-borrowed the word. VeriGGlater 18:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demashita! Powerpuff Girls Z 

message: South Korea makes anime, like Bastof Syndrom. But do they CALL it anime? They make manga but call it Manhwa, so anime might have a different name too. But since there's scrace to no difference between manhwa & manga & language-daft people can't tell Bastof isn't Japanese, it's safe to say that Kouth Korean animation is anime too, but like not ALL animation made in Japan is anime, not ALL Korean animation would be either.
:Please sign your posts. South Koreans don't call Korean animation Anime. A New Type Magazine had a Korean editor object to the usage of the term "anime" toward Korean animation. Rather there is a Korean word for it. While Japanese animation is often shipped to Korea to make it move, it doesn't make it "more Korean" and "less Japanese" because by that logic then American animation should look exactly the same as the Japanese and then when they move to China, it should look exactly the same. Thus it's where the animation is produced, the story lines are made, and who controls the project that makes it of that country. Doggy Poo is a Korean Animation...--Hitsuji Kinno 08:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  South Korean Anime 

message: The first sentence :The history of anime begins at the start of the 20th century, when Japanese filmmakers experimented with the animation techniques that were being explored in France, Germany, the United States, and Russia.[citation needed]
As well as other statements attesting to the origin and development of certain types of anime appear to have been copied verbatim from .
catalexis of AZ 02:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wag your finger at the other guys. According to the whois that page has only been in existence since March 2007. Plenty of sites lift content from wikipedia. --Squilibob 06:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History Section 

message: "Manga! Manga!" by Fredrick Schodt states that anime comes from the french word L'animé, and is *not* a shortened version of the English word Animation. Rather it comes from the french, which has the same latin root word "anima" meaning to move. Fredrick Schodt got this information from Tezuka, who created anime... so I think that's more creditable. It's also notable that "anime" in Japanese sounds a lot like the french word "l'animé" In addition many of the camera angles used in anime are replications or inspired by French films as Tezuka said himself. He said Terazuka, French Film, and German Film had heavy influence on camera work in anime. Also Disney films had a heavy influence on the initial character designs of animation, and less influence on camera angles. I'll correct this if there are no objections with reference. (I'll give til this coming Sunday.) --Hitsuji Kinno 02:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Without any debate, I've changed it and added the reference. I'll clean the reference tag as soon as I find that pesky book ref tag...--Hitsuji Kinno 04:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Your reference betrays you, since it says that shorts were the first thing produced at that time... what Tezuka did create was the sense of camera angles. He admired the feature-length animation. Where does American animation and Anime deviate to define these types of animation? Besides, the main issue was etymology... since the reference I dug up was printed by Kodansha I think it's better reference than none and some American's assumption about the Etymology because they are American-centric. Whereas anime had many influences besides America. Sign your posts please. --Hitsuji Kinno 08:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anime Etymology 

message: I request that The Anime Network be added to 'External Pages' section. In addition, I request that the wiki page for the Anime Network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime_Network) be added to the 'See Also' links. I ask these things because, being such a large, popular network as it is, I cannot see why a 24/7 anime channel, being the first of its kind, shouldn't be linked and accessible on this page. I've been watching it, and it's been active for 5 years. It's existence alone, is a huge step in the U.S's current state of the reception of anime. So I ask that you please also include a mentioning of Anime Network's 24/7 channel in the 'Current reception in the United States' section. I came to this page looking for a network just for anime, and I was surprised when I had to look elsewhere to find the Anime Network. These few small changes could greatly help those searching around like I did. Thank you.
Shadowdog2244 22:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we link to Anime Network, we have to link to every other anime channel. So in the interest of avoiding systemic bias, we don't link to any of them. --Farix (Talk) 22:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: And a half dozen Japanese anime channels, Animax, or any other anime channel all around the world, hence why I made the comment about systemic bias. If we included all of the links, other editors will invoke WP:NOT#DIRECTORY and delete the list. --Farix (Talk) 23:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Editprotected request not done per comments by Farix. Resurgent insurgent 18:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Also, this article is not fully protected, so editprotected requests are not appropriate here. Any username more than 4 days old can edit the article. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Anime Network

message: Anime is not only made up of big eyes... there are plenty of anime which are defined by smaller eyes, such as the body of Miyazaki's work, many Josei anime (Harikari Man, Suppli, Kimi wa Petto etc), and many anime aimed at an older market. In fact the anime with the largest eyes tend to be shoujo aimed at small kids. This would be exemplary of shows such as Mary Bell. Shouldn't that also be defined as well instead of making a blanket statement?
What does define anime is the way that it conserves and uses framework. (However this is a bit animation technical). This can be the use of detailed backgrounds, serialized stories, the use of stock animation, the use of static shots (back of head shots, quiet moments, a shot of a background with no characters in it.), conservation of in between shots with keys (called tweening, but I'm not sure how to put that into layman's terms). Anime employs tricks to fool the eye into thinking there is movement. It also likes to use more camera shot work, such as upshots, panning shots, etc that American animation tends to purposefully avoid. Other things of note are the creator-centric nature of it and the use of pop bands to do opening and closing music, which American animation does not--many of these tricks I've listed are used in very cheap production anime and are looked down upon by American animators as not "proper". (In fact many animation executives I've seen press conferences from call it a fad and not real animation.) Much of the shotwork is borrowed from French and German films as well (though disney had some influence as well). The conventions of storytelling are often borrowed from traditional theater such as Terazuka and Noh.
Anime is actually a double sub set- Animation-->Limited Animation-->Anime. Even high-class productions of anime still use the rules of limited animation to make the work flow. If you look up limited animation you'll see a lot of the same tricks employed, but Anime taking them further.
--;; I'm sure some of this can be found through references... I got some of this information from an animator I know... alot of it can be found in the book references listed which should be incorporated into the article anyway. --Hitsuji Kinno 20:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no reason that you can't put this in the article. If you have references then even better. --Squilibob 01:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stylistic exceptions

message: First i think that it should be mentioned that anime is a style of 2D animation not 3D.At least that is how i know it.
2.at the styles section:
Isn't there a style that has all competition based animes included?
I mean animation productions like: Yu Gi Oh!(all of the versions), duelmasters, Oban star racers and many others.
They all have this one common characteristic: they have one character that participates in some kind of nonviolent(no fighting at least) competition.And they almost never loose.
:Please sign your posts. There are exceptions to Anime being 2D, such as Zoids, and also many games have anime. For example there was a 3D Sailor Moon game for dreamcast. Computer 3D has also been used in the rendering of 2D productions such as Heat Guy J. (In the US it's used for South Park.)
:As for competition-based anime (which is really not a recognized genre of anime since it encompasses things like Japan! which is a cooking anime, which has it's own genre.) And I wouldn't call Yugioh non-violent. Competitions happened in Dragonball Z as well. Competitions have happened in Martial Arts anime, Role Playing Anime, and sometimes Episode of the Week in various anime. (Like the classic have-to-insert Sport competition.) Or even Sports Anime, like Touch, which while is technically baseball anime, it doesn't really have much competition.
:What Anime is and does is use the rules of limited animation. That is cheats to make things appear they are moving more than they are. Even high tech anime such as Miyazaki productions still use principles of limited animation (Back of heads shots when talking... for example.). However, what classes anime from other limited productions, such a APA, is to how the limitation was adapted and taken to the next level as well as the purposeful integration of Japanese cinematic techniques, such as Kurozawa films (you can see this with Samurai fights and any fight sequence... including Yugioh), Terazuka theater (gay and lesbian characters who cross dress), Noh Theater (the hollow sounds and BG music used in Tenchi are prime example.), movie film shots (such as up shots far away shots, building shots, panning shots, etc. adapted from French and German Film) and other more subtleties like treatment of line. The stylistic differences between American film that are consistent are the use of color (which is viewed differently in Japanese art) and the use of line. (which tends to vary more in thickness than western versions of animation.). The various cheats that Japanese use and how they use them is actually what defines the medium. You can see this extended to even 3D games, and animation that uses 3D.
:I should also note that production sizes of Japanese studios are greatly smaller. While an American Studio can have 3 teams per productions, 3 directors, Anime usually only has one director for the entire series, and one character designer. (an American team can have 3 or more. ^^;; I don't know how to reference that since it's first hand knowledge. A Japanese studio also works on a tighter budget. To a Japanese studio (when I was in between an animator and a Japanese studio) the amount of money an American production spends they only dream of.. and this is a high-end studio (deleting name om me if you are dying to know.), who makes clean and high-end productions. 100 people on a crew to Japanese is unheard of and highly wasteful. Many people multi-task. (Directors will draw, whereas an American director will not.) That's what defines anime as a medium of expression. Not big eyes, or high voices, but how it's produced and the end result.--Hitsuji Kinno 03:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I learnt more about anime from your reply than from the whole article (or from any essay I've ever read about anime!) Thank you. It would be good to integrate it into the main article for the benefit of everybody, although I understand most of it is first-hand experience. --Etatoby 10:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anime Styles and Graphics 

message: 






To make it easier for article inclusion... to include it thereafter just do  This should get the article up to code. I'll play with an overhaul wherein I add references... Then we can delete the references section, and then the notes section can become references... and then add a See Also, like [[Limited Animation][] which already lists this article. Then we can try to renominate this article for GA listing.--Hitsuji Kinno 17:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: If there are no objections, I'll move it next week.--Hitsuji Kinno 17:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Stylisitc before Genre?