Talk:Alice Bailey/Archive 2

message: User kwork's proffered version of the criticism section, reflected here []  Contains blatant WP:NOR and misues of WP:PSTS "In her books, Alice Bailey frequently stereotyped Jews as separatists, and because in her view separatism is the fundamental human problem and the main source of the world's evil, Jews are presented by her as at the core of the world's problems. Here are just a few such quotes from her books:" Sethie 22:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, she is clearly saying here that "the Jew" is the symbol of all humanity, and that their history is the symbol of "all past conflicts" -- that all humans are "evolving, seeking, restless, materialistic, separative and greedy". This particular paragraph does not stereotype anyone; rather, it "universatypes" them. Eaglizard 09:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If that is correct, and I think it is not, why did she choose the term "Jews" instead of 'humanity' or another term not connected to a minority that had just experienced mass murder? Kwork 14:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Brief Statements by involved parties

message: :::Strikes me the AN/I report was much more effective at bringing outside input to the article, SqueakBox 17:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You mean me? No, I'm here because Kwork put something on my personal talk page, I haven't looked at AN/I. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: AN/I comment

message: This article is another of the many warzones in Wikipedia with respect to antisemitism. 
Over and over again, articles which cite antisemitic staments on the part of authors are consistently sabotaged by followers of those authors, usually with the claim that quoting an author's own statements is not proof that the author held those views or a claim that the editor who mentions an author's well-known antisemitism is engaging in OR. 
Both excuses are disingenuous and they speak very stirongly to an implicit desire to shield and protect antisemitic authors from criticism which they have received and are receiving in all other biographical venues on the web and in print. 
Alice Bailey was a notorious antisemnite and racist. This is demonstrable throughout her works. Knowledge of this fact is to be found in many places on the world wide web and in print. 
Those who continually delete references to Bailey's antisemitism are actively degrading the relaiability of Wikipedia. 
I think such people should be permanently barred from editing, as their sabotage amounts to vandalism of Wikipedia. 
The truth about Bailey's antisemitism has been out for decades -- since SHE first put her views in print. 
We all know she was a grossly antisemitic author. 
Now just say it and have done with it.
*This post was made by Nameless date Stamp quite a while ago, and it is now credited as such by -- 
Nameless Date Stamp 22:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Antisemitic people always delete mentions of antrisemitism at Wikipedia 

message: While I realize Wikipedia is not a discussion forum, so much has been stated here on the subject of AAB's antisemitism that I feel a counterbalancing argument is needed. I'll be concise (I hope). Alice Bailey's writings are not antisemitic.
I have never met anyone who understands AAB's "system" and also thinks she was "anti-semitic" or allowed herself the luxury of hatred in any way. In fine, her system is based at its core on the concept of reincarnation. If one posits (as do her books) an impervious "soul" which reincarnates eternally for the purpose of "spiritual evolution" (learning, basically), then such episodes as "the murder of six million Jews (one million of them children or babies)" quite simply are not tragic, whether they happen to "Jews", or anyone else. They are, instead, opportunities for "soul growth", and merely incidents in the infinite career of the soul. As far as her ascriptions of negative qualities to the "Jews", such as "greed" or "selfishness", I do not know of a single example of such that, taken in context, does not in fact ascribe those qualities to all humanity, merely using "Jews" as an exemplary case. I have always felt she wrote on "Jews" to try and counter some of the genuine antisemitic writings which were prevalent at the time. A close reading of any references to "Jews" in AAB's writings will always reveal stark difference to any passage from a legitimate insult- and curse-filled hate-tract of contemporary times. 
Written when "The Jewish Question" was still considered a legitimate moral dilemma, and many lower-income ethnic males considered beating up a "Jew" about as valid a form of self-expression as any other, AAB's writings are considerably less "Jew-centric" than they might seem to readers today. Personally, I am struck by the similarity to a rather more famous case, the prolific use of the word nigger in some of Mark Twain's best books. Most modern readers would be positively shocked to read an unedited version of Huckleberry Finn, and could easily  develop an idea that Mr Clemens was a racist, when in fact, he is (I believe) considered to have been quite "progressive" in his views, and very friendly towards the blacks of his day. Eaglizard 10:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Granted that Bailey's negative viewpoints about Jews were part of what you call a "system based at its core on the concept of reincarnation", here is how she explained their presence on Earth: "the Jews are the reincarnation of spiritual failures or residues from another planet..." (Esoteric Healing, 1949). This unusual aspect of her antisemitism probably deserves its own separate heading, as reincarnationalist antisemitsm is certainly a far cry from the typical political or religious hatred of Jews one might expect from a garden-variety racist.
Eaglizard, in recent years I have had quite a few discussions on AAB e-forums over this issue, and have often been told that I do not understand Bailey's teaching. Particularly I have heard this from Phillip Lindsay, the Esoteric Astrologer. (When I discovered Phillip was going to be in NYC, I tried to arrange a meeting with him, but he refused.) The fact is that I studied with Roberto Assagioli (AAB's most advanced and important co-worker) for about six years while living in Italy. I was also a member of The School for Esoteric Studies for many years, and at a time when all the teachers of the SES had been directly trained by Alice Bailey as staff of the Arcane School. I think I have grounds to claim that I understand the Alice Bailey teaching at least as well as anyone participating in this discussion. With that in mind, if you have not read it already, you can read a rough version on my thoughts on AAB's antisemitism above (on this talk page) under "anti-Judaism". Namaskar Kwork 14:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A (hopefully) brief rebuttal 

message: The current edit wars led me to seek out the history of the page, and i found that although the current topic seems to be Bailey's antisemitism, there was an earlier version of the page in which her anti-Black sentiments were also mentioned. That material was deleted long ago, and i bring it up here to ask if perhaps it should be reinstated. In the earlier version of the page, the section now called "Criticism" was called "Racist Views" -- and here is is in its entirety, as food for thought: 
Racist views
Bailey's writings are marked by persistent racism and anti-Semitism. For instance, she wrote that the Nazi atrocities against the Jews had come about because "The Jewish race, who loved the possessions of the world more than they loved the service of Light, joined ranks with the rebels against God" and therefore "... the law of racial karma] is working and the Jews are paying the price, factually and symbolically, for all they have done in the past." She further claimed that "the Jews are the reincarnation of spiritual failures or residues from another planet..." and that "the word 'love' for others is lacking in Judaism... The Jew has never grasped the love of God." (Esoteric Healing, 1949)
Bailey had a "solution" to what she saw as "the Jewish problem", a solution that reveals her anti-Black bigortry as well. She wrote that only "when selfishness in business relations and the pronounced manipulative tendencies of the Hebrew people are exchanged for more selfless and honest forms of activity" would anti-Semitism cease and that "the Jewish problem will be solved by intermarriage; that of the Negro will not." (Esoteric Healing, p. 263 et. seq.)
*This post was made quite a while ago by Nameless Date Stamp, who now comes by to sign it --
Nameless Date Stamp 22:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The Negro Problem" -- Looks like She Was She Anti-Black, Too. 

message: For whatever reason, the Alice Bailey article has stayed rather small, and limited mostly to biographical aspects of her life. No editor has ever ventured into a discussion of the teaching in her books. Because that is the case, I have come to think that it is necessary to keep the criticism section in proportion to the amount of biographical material. Every time the criticism section has been expanded there has followed a period of chaos as editors on both sides try to impose their own views. In my opinion it is better to discuss such changes first, and try to reach compromise. I admit that I have not always followed this approach myself, although in most cases that was the result of rough editing by others that came first. (I know for a fact  this process is getting attention from, and sometimes direction from, individuals who have chosen not to get involved in editing themselves.) Kwork 11:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They also contain a specific instructions regarding proscribed marriages. Here is an example of the latter, from "Problems of Humanity - Chapter IV - The Problem of the Racial Minorities": "On the subject of intermarriage, the best and soundest thinkers in both the white and black races at this time deplore mixed marriages. They mean no happiness for either party. When considering this subject it should be remembered, however, that intermarriage between the white peoples and the yellow races (the Chinese and the Japanese) is equally unfortunate."http://kingsgarden.org/English/Organizations/OMM.GB/WomenWriters/AliceBailey/Problem/prob1047.html
The above was moved be me. I frequently forget to log in. Sorry. Kwork 13:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The article and its discussion

message: <B>THIS ENTIRE SECTION OF THE TALK PAGE WAS DELETED BY SETHIE.
I have reinstated it as it relates directly to quotes that were sourced and then repudiated within the article, and it proposes a way around the current impasse by asking others to help create an article on "Occult writers and antisemitism" as a way to retain some of the material that editors have tried to include on the Bailey page. Sethie, i consider your deletion of this discussion section to be vandalism. You owe me an apology, and you need to stop engaging in this sort of disruptive behaviour. If it happens again, there will be no alternative but for me to seek redress against you as a vandal. DO NOT DO THIS AGAIN.</b>
Thanks, Kwork, for the link to the downloadable texts. Using an html editor, one can perform multi-document searches, and thus the quotation on Jews as "residue" was quite easy to find. (I use bbedit, a Macintosh html editor and recommend it highly for performing complex inter-file searches on all manner of text files, not merely html documents.) 
Here is what is found in "Rays and Initiation" (rays1008.html)
The Jews, as a product of the humanity of the previous 
solar system, and as constituting the incarnating 
residue from that solar system..."
This is probably the source of the twisted quote made by David Green, which rbridge seems to have correctly identified as not occuring in Bailey's writings in that form. Therefore, that quotation, and Green as a source, should not be considered accuate. 
However, in this document one can find much other interesting material that relates to the "Criticism" section. 
This bit refers to Jewish Zionism as "a triangle of evil" -- a snappy phrase well worthy of quotation (rays1156.html): 
These Forces of Evil work through a
triangle of evil, one point of which is to be found in the
Zionist Movement in the United States, another in central
Europe, and the third in Palestine. Palestine is no longer a
Holy Land and should not be so regarded.
Later in that section, Bailey also uses the cute term "Zionist Dictators." 
Also in "Rays and Initiations" we find a direct statement by Bailey that counters the Lucis Trust's statement that she thought of Jews as "a state of consciousness" (rays1156.html):
The Jews (who are not a nation but a religious group)
Looking through the "Rays and Initians" text, i get the distinct impression that were Bailey to be alive now, she would very likely be allied with the White Supremicist anti-Jewish hate movement. Her texts are certainly fully in line with those published by modern hate-groups that promote a conspiracy theory involving the so-called Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG), and also with groups that disseminate anti-Zionist World Trade Center conspiracy theories.
I am not the one to do so, but i certainly agree with Kwork that someone should write an article for the antisemitism section on the topic of Occult writers and antisemitism, a piece including not only Alice Bailey, but also occult authors such as Julius Evola, Mircea Eliade, Carl Gustav Jung, Benjamin Creme, and others -- and that would complement the current Wikipedia articles:
:Antisemitism around the world
:Arabs and antisemitism
:Christianity and antisemitism
:Islam and antisemitism
:Nation of Islam and antisemitism
:Universities and antisemitism
:Anti-globalization and antisemitism
After posting this message here, i will go over to the talk page there and propose this idea to the writers working on the topic of antisemitism in general.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.142.90.34 (talk • contribs)  21:55, 16 August 2007
I acknowledge the above as my writing. Nameless Date Stamp 22:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews as "residue", Bailey as anti-Zionist 

message: You may wish to consider starting a talkpage archive for this article. Thanks. ~Kylu (u|t)  04:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are no objections I'll do this later today.  Feedback welcome.  Renee   --Renee 11:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Archived everything through July, as apparently the current kerfluffle starts then. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving 

message: About my earlier recommendation on irrelevant hyperlinks, pleases see this Wikipedia article.  
  James 13:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Discretion in Use of Hyperlinks 

message: Gershom in the article referenced in our criticism section [] begins with the following which he attributes to Bailey:
"Alice Bailey wrote: 
'The Jewish race, who loved the possessions of the world more than they loved the service of Light, joined ranks with the rebels against God [and against the Aryan race, whom Bailey admires] Thus the history of the wandering Jew began and the Jew since has known no lasting peace.' 
I've checked carefully, and again there is no such passage in the Bailey writings.  The above is construction consisting of pieces of things Bailey wrote plus some words that are not hers.  The closest match to it is:
"The Masters met in conclave and decided what should be the fate of those who, having reached the Gates of Light, loved the possessions of the world more than they loved the service of the light. Again the Word went forth to the revolting three, who waited still without the gates..."  Esoteric Psychology, 397
The above is in reference to the Jews from ancient times, that is before recorded history.
The "rebels against God" is fabricated.  Bailey speaks of the wander Jew, but not in the above supposed quote.
I conclude that Gershom is drawing from secondary sources and perhaps confusing someones paraphrase of Bailey with an actual quote from her. James 14:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have always believed this source is questionable and have raised that issue repeatedly.  Sure, Gershom's a published author in another area, which only raises the question why couldn't he get this published?  (because it's a soapbox? inaccurate? who knows?)   --Renee 14:28, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Painful as it is (to my mind) to continue to stir this senseless little frying pan, I'm afraid I must concur. Two fabricated quotes makes Gershom a completely untrustworthy source, imho. But, I thought to argue the Sjoo article first, because it is the more obviously fringe-group radicalism. Still, I fear the respected author of Jewish Themes in Star Trek may not be long for this page, either... Eaglizard 19:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another Rabbi Gershom's Quote Problem 

message: Once again it comes to my notice that Sethie is blanking portions of this discussion page. Our discussions have moved on since this was posted, but it was in direct response to the question of the accuracy of a quotation from Bailey cited by Rabbi Gershom in his article. There was no reason for Sethie to blank it, as it was a sincere attempt to locate the material that Gershom was citin. I therefore m reinstating it. This is the second time that Sethie has blanked out my contributions to the discussion. Sethie, you were asked once before by me to stop doing this. Now it seems that reporting your behaviour is imperative. 
The resinstated material, dealing with source material:
 
-----
:::If you looked up the source and the quote isn't there, remove it. Sethie 01:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restoring more discussion BLANKED by Sethie 

message: In "The Externalization of the Heirarchy" by Alice Bailey we find this text by Alice Bailey:
 
: "The Gradual Dissolution of Orthodox Judaism.
  
:"Reasons
  
:: "1. Because of its presentation of a wrathful Jehovah, caring only for his chosen people. This is a basic evil. The Lord of the World, the God in whom we live and move and have our being, is totally otherwise.
 
:: "2. Because of its separativeness.
   
:: "3. Because it is so ancient that its teachings are largely obsolete.
  
:: "4. Because when the Jews become spiritual they will greatly benefit mankind, for they are found in every land."
  
and
    
:"I have sought - with love and understanding - to point out the faults of the world religions, with their obsolete theologies and their lack of love, and to indicate the evils of Judaism. The present world faiths must return to their early simplicity, and orthodox Judaism, with its deep seated hate, must slowly disappear; all must be changed in preparation for the revelation which Christ will bring."
    
(Nameless Date Stamp) Hope this helps. 03:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Judaism "a basic Evil" / "the evils of Judaism" 

message: We were discussing a compromise, and several editors made important changes to the article without discussion, involving topics that had not been introduced as issues. Please explain why you said you were willing to accept a discussed edit, and then proceed to do something else. This suggests bad faith editing. I have now offered compromises several times. Kwork 14:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The edits I made are, I believe, entirely valid.   You erased my work so I switched it back.  Lets' talk about if you like.  In case you erase it again before anyone has a chance to review it, here is is for the groups reference:James 14:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: James, I believe your edits are in line with consensus from Sethie, Eaglizard, myself, and others.  --Renee 14:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And enonEmouse too. Sethie 18:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the Wikipedia article on consensus. You are confusing it with majority rule. This is a common mistake. In the present case, consensus has not been achieved. 19:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  While it is true that Wikipedia is not a democracy, and that majority agreement is not synonymous with consensus, nonetheless, WP:3RR unmistakably shifts the balance of power in favor of the larger group. Besides which, I am unwilling, yes: unwilling to allow a continuous violator of one policy (WP:NPA) to hide behind other policies. That is bad faith editing. Asserting bad faith editing, btw, is hardly following WP:AGF. Eaglizard 19:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: BAD FAITH EDITING AND UNWILLINGNESS TO COMPROMISE

message: I have initiated a RFC/User on Kwork based primarily around his actions on the Alice Bailey page. Please feel free to add comments.
Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/kwork 
Sethie 19:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RFC/User- Kwork

message: I went to the trouble clarifying the language and substituting a real Bailey quote that was the nearest match to the Bogus one offered in the original.  (Otherwise, removing the old quote would have left text that made no sense and I would have had to delete the Rabbi's conclusion.)  I also made two sentences out of one long one and made it crystal clear which words were Bailey's and which were the Rabbi's.    But I'm not attached to the Jewish issues portion of the criticism. (Given that it is communal effort that's been pieced together over time, the English isn't bad.)   
My sense is that the criticism section should be relatively brief compared to the whole biography.  If it is to become large then it should be moved to a separate Wiki article where the pros and cons can be elaborated. James 03:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Thoughts 

message: Should she be called an English-born American writer...? I was trying to clean up just the lead sentence per wp:mosbio. Also it says that she "founded an international esoteric movement". What was it called? Sorry for my ignorance on this subject. Thanks in advance. --Tom 15:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alice Bailey had virtually nothing to do with World Goodwill, which was a Foster Bailey's service project. Alice Bailey's service project was the Arcane School, which gave training in her approach to esoteric living via correspondence course world wide.Kwork 17:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead sentence and section

message: The Gershom quote about missing "love" is obviously a paraphrase by someone of the actual Bailey passage; perhaps he borrowed the line from somewhere thinking it was Bailey's exact words.  Since the misquote is back in the criticism, and it is a fact that Gershom did attribute the words to her (and wer're reporting what was said regardless of whether it is true or a misquote), I've appended the actual quote of which Gershom's is a summary or paraphrase. James 15:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Gershom Paraphrase of the Bailey Passage

message: Sethie, I've moved the passage you questioned out of the "Life" section to a new section titled "Influence" and added a second entry to it.  Let me know your thoughts.  "Teach me, my ears are pits."  James 19:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Material Added 

message: It is evident from the history of this discussion section that the Jewish issue has been the dominant theme.  A few participants seem intent on it and are likely to keep it going indefinitely.  Since talk on the subject will go on for a long time, it would be good if everyone knows more clearly and fully exactly what it is they are talking about.  So, I have placed on my web page an html file containing all references to "Jews" and "Jewish" in the 
Bailey books.  Click on this link to read it:  [Everything Alice Bailey and DK ]
Please note that each reference to "Jews" and "Jewish" shows in blue text with seven lines of contextual text above and seven below the key word.
I suggest that all of us who plan to participate in further discussion of the subject, actually take the time to read the whole of it.  Read the positive and critical and all in between.  Read it in context.  Read it with a critical eye and read it with a sympathetic eye.  If you've got one active, read it with your third eye.  But why not put some thought and reflection into your reading? 
A side note of some interest.  When the html file on the Jews is reduced to a text file and loaded into MS Word, we find that the file is 120 pages long.  Since there are seven lines above and seven below, the files includes an array of topics unrelated to Jews, so I estimate that the text related to them is about 80 MS Word pages.
So, just how many MS Word pages are there in all of Bailey/DK's works.  I loaded them into MS Word, and the answer is 6,303 pages.  If we do the math, we find that, of the 6,303 pages Bailey wrote, somewhere between 1 and 2 percent relates directly to the Jewish people and 98 to 99 percent is about other things. 
Keep this mind when you read my little compilation: you are not reading Alice Bailey, but only that 1 percent of it that relates to the Jews.  You are not reading all she wrote about brotherhood, about there being only one human family, nor about the essential unity of all life and all human life in particular.  You are not reading all she said about inclusive love, and the crying need for all of us to identify with each other, and to live a life of harmlessness. You will miss most of that.  Let us read well, and pray we all find in ourselves the wisdom to think and talk from a serene place where things are most clear.
Kind Regards to all.  James 01:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears to me that the criticism section of the article is simply too large in proportion to the biography section. I agree that reading the material James has pointed us to will help everyone put things into proper context. Arion 02:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The reason it is longer than earlier is because it was necessary to clarify the misquote by the the Rabbi by ading the real one.  If we eliminate the misquote, we can reduce by another 30%.  For now the misquote is still present but I've just shortened the first paragraph by about 20%.  James 15:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Context: Everything Alice Bailey and DK Said on the Jewish People 

message: Hi folks, in preparation for proposing a new write-up on the antisemitism issue, I've looked through the talk pages and gathered people's responses to the new sources provided by Nameless Date.  
Regarding the Shnirelman article from Hebrew U, Eaglizard read it and said this:
:After reading the cited article, I find that we have here a single paragraph in a (much) longer piece dealing with antisemitic trends in Russian Neopaganism. It is clear from context that the author is simply offering tangential support for his theme ... the Bailey reference is in no way intrinsic to the argument there at all, and she isn't referred to elsewhere in the paper, only in the paragraph quoted above. Of course, that doesn't mean it's not useful...To deal with the material as presented: Shnirelman gives us one sentence that (presumably) summarizes the findings of another source (Margaret Brearley), another sentence of his own interpretation of some bits from Rays and the Initiations...Since Shnirelman isn't really arguing that Bailey is racist (just asserting it, w/o attempt to justify), that really (to my mind) only leaves the first sentence as useful. Eaglizard 14:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "In this respect, the Russian Neo-pagans differ radically from Bailey, who accused the Jews of 'separatism' and treated them as the major obstacle for an establishment of the uniform nationless world civilization. See Bailey, Rays and Initiations, 634; Brearley, 'Possible Implications,' 261–62."
The Shnirelman article devoted only three sentences out of an entire article and the second article devoted only a footnote to this topic.  That's important to remember to avoid giving it undue weight in an article focusing on Alice Bailey.
James thanks for the source above for all works on Bailey and Judaism.  I've repasted the link here so it doesn't get lost [Everything Alice Bailey and DK ].  I will read it.  --Renee 02:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary of citations and feedback 

message: What this page needs is not less data in the controversies section -- it needs an entire "Techings" section, summarizing the major points of what she believed and taught. 
I have lerned, for instance, through interaction on this discussion page, that there is an actual course of study in her works that is still available. Surely someone who knows about that could write about it. 
She actually did teach a system of philosophy and spirituality, right? 
PLEASE, tell us about it! 
Cordially, 
Nameless Date Stamp 04:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I completely agree; however, having been contemplating what would compose a "Teachings" section for a week or two now, I'm no closer to a small list of topics; one problem is that there really isn't a "summary" work, another is the sheer volume of material - its really vast, actually. I wish there were a scholarly source that had made a decent overview, but I don't know of one. So, I'm just trying to decide how to approach it. "Themes that are stressed often throughout the books include yada yada yada" I guess; but defining a (small) list for the yada yadas is rather non-trivial, I think. But I'm working on it; perhaps I'll make a project page. Eaglizard 06:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please Add a Teachings Section  

message: As promised, here is my brief "seven sentence" revision of the Controversies section. 
My chages were as follows: 
1) Changed the lead sentence to be (A) truthful and (B) a topic sentence covering ALL THREE of the forms of controversy
2) Added Shnirelman.
3) Reverted back to the very brief descriptions of the critics Gershom and Sjoo to place them in context, using adjectives and adjectival phrases, as they once had, and as has always been the case with the Crhistian and Theosophical critics. 
4) Resinserted the deleted "role and person of Jesus" reference to explain WHY the Watchman Fellowship bothered to mention her, as they only critique Christian groups or those that claim a relationship to Jesus. Without that short clause, the WF critique looks like mere gabbling; with it, their criticism is given a full contextual reading. 
5) Wiki-linked a number of words which James had UN-linked. I strongly support these wiki-links and can find no support for James removing them. They are to specific terms like "New World Order" and "Judaism" which need to be defined. 
Here is the revision, SIX short paragraphs in total (comprising eight sentences, not seven, as promised), of which only THREE paragraph-sentences deal specifically with the subject of antisemitism:
-----
Controversies
Critics of Alice Bailey have charged her with racism and antisemitism, as well as non-conformity to orthodox belief systems. 
Dr. Victor Shnirelman, a cultural anthropologist and ethnographer, likened Bailey's cosmology to that of the Italian fascist and occultist Julius Evola and wrote that "racist and antisemitic trends are explicit [...] in the occult teachings of Alice Bailey and her followers. "Russian Neo-pagan Myths and Antisemitism", Victor A. Shnirelman in "Acta no. 13, Analysis of current trends in antisemitism," published by The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, 1998] Retrieved 2007-08-22
The Chassidic author Rabbi Yonassan Gershom in his article "Antisemitic Stereotypes in Alice Bailey's Writings," wrote of Bailey's plan for a New World Order, saying her call for "the gradual dissolution - again if in any way possible - of the Orthodox Jewish faith" indicated "her goal is nothing less than the destruction of Judaism itself.""Antisemitic Stereotypes in Alice Bailey's Writings", Rabbi Yonassan Gershom, 1997, revised 2005. Retrieved 2007-08-22. 
Monica Sjöö, an advocate of the Goddess movement, wrote in her book, New Age Channelings - Who or What is being Channeled?, of Bailey's "reactionary and racist influence on the whole New Age movement.""The Racist Legacy of Alice Bailey", Monica Sjöö, published in "From the Flames- Radical feminism with Spirit" - issue 22 - winter 98/99. Retrieved 2007-08-22.
Bailey's works are also criticised by some Christian groups. In his book Unmasking the New Age, the Christian writer Douglas Groothuis said Bailey's Lucis Trust was originally named the "Lucifer Trust" and was later changed due to controversy.Groothuis, Douglas. Unmasking the New Age. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1986; p. 120."Alice Bailey Profile", Reba Parker and Timothy Oliver, 1996, The Watchman Expositor, Watchman Fellowship. Retrieved 2007-08-22. The conservative Christian Watchman Fellowship says although her texts dealt extensively with the role and person of Jesus, her teachings are actually contrary to orthodox and traditional Christian doctrine.
Bailey's books are criticized by Theosophists who consider her writings as borrowed from Theosophy yet including perspectives that were not part of the original teachings of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky."Theosophy's Shadow (A Critical Look at the Claims and Teachings of Alice A. Bailey)", by Nicholas Weeks. Revised and expanded version of article that appeared in the Summer 1997 issue
of Fohat, Edmonton Theosophical Society. Online at the Blavatsky Study Center. Retrieved 2007-08-22."A Comparison Between H. P. Blavatsky & Alice Bailey", from Protogonus, Spring 1989, by Alice Leighton Cleather and Basil Crump. Retrieved 2007-08-22.
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Your comments are solicited.
Nameless Date Stamp 04:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversies Section -- Short and TRUTHFUL 

message: I am not a Theosophist, so forgive these questions if they are old hat. They are new to me, and replies would be appreciated:
1) If Bailey was in India and was a student of Blavatsky, did she know Annie Besant? If so, it seems to me that at least a sentence describing their connections would be very useful. 
2) A look at the scope of the Annie Besant page should give Renee, James, and others something to aim for. THAT is a lengthy and interesting article. The Besant article contains an infobox on Theosophy. I know that the term "Neo-Theosophy" is applied to the teachings of Alice Bailey, so this is asked in all kindness, as an outsider: Would it be a good idea to add Bailey and Neo-Theosophy to the Theosophy infobox and to place that (revised) infobox on the Bailey page?
RSVP
Nameless Date Stamp 05:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd like to see that mentioned, as well. As far as Besant's article tho, she was much more active in the public sphere than Bailey was -- there are many references to Besant (often with her buddy CW Ledbeater, ofc) in newspapers and such, and literally thousands of references in the specialist journals like The Beacon. There's really very little comparable material about Bailey (although her books are certainly discussed widely in those "industry mags").  We'll certainly never have that much material on her. But the proposal about the Theosophy infobox is interesting; have you perhaps brought that up at Talk: Theosophy (where some editors are likely to be very concerned with such changes lol)? It would be great to have an infobox in this article; not sure Theosophy would be acceptable to most, tho. Eaglizard 08:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Egalizard, yes Besant was very active in the public field and did work outside the Theosophical sphere as well.  With Bailey, there is much more material about her teachings than about her life in the biographical sense.  This is one reason why the "Influence" section I just restored makes good sense.  Her life is her philosophy and thought and it's influence on the world. To understand a philosopher or a theologian or a scientists we elaborate the nature of their thought and its impact on the culture of her time.   Of course, if people insist on removing Bailey related material such as I just restored (with quotes from a University of Princeton book and another from a Beyond the Brain Conference, held at St. John’s College, Cambridge University) as was recently done, then we shall never get anywhere with this article.  James 14:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

text: On your other point, there are many liberal Theosophists who are happy with Bailey and embrace her teachings as part of the same stream of ageless wisdom of which Blavatsky was an exponent.  Another type of old school Theosophist are critical and reject her work.  James 14:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Annie Besant... Theosophy?