Talk:Apple Inc./Archive 1

message: The text added was - "Wozniak raised money to start his new comnpany by selling devices used to steal services from the telphone company."
If that is a fact it needs to be stated factually and neutrally. - Taxman 15:03, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
Of course it's a fact. Why do you want to hide the truth from the public? Are you on Apple's payroll?
:I think the dispute is over the wording, in particular the word "steal". There are many who would say that phreaking wasn't stealing; others would disagree. So either way it's POV... I don't think anyone is saying that Wozniak didn't build the devices, but his motivation or use to which they were put needs rewording to avoid an unnecessary argument.Graham 06:03, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: On further consideration, I removed the sentence altogether. It has nothing to do with Apple Computer, which is what this article is about. It can be mentioned on Steve Wozniak's page. I don't dispute the facts, but the wording and the way it aggressively links to an external site make it POV. It also has a vibe about it that seems to simply be wanting to say something bad for the sake of it. To me it's no more relevant than if I had received a caution for criminal damage at age 13 and then at age 20 I founded Megalocorp, inc. My minor criminal record would have absolutely no material bearing on that company whatsoever.Graham 01:38, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm an Apple Mac developer, and I for one see it as counterproductive and unnecessary. I'm also fairly loyal to Apple (i.e. I simply don't do Windows), though being a Mac developer for nearly 20 years I've been fucked over by the company more than a few times. It dismays me that there are still factions within Apple that can't pull together in the same direction, and that hurts all of us. Unfortunately simply denying it doesn't make it untrue, or go away. Better that Apple fans make their displeasure about the situation known so that it gets fixed. My take is that the two technologies are not in competition, they are serving different needs. So making sure "the correct side wins" is utter bollocks - they are both on the same side, to wit, making sure the Mac platform remains viable. Neither side will win if all the company's energy is spent on one-upmanship.  The fact is that Cocoa and Carbon are complementary technologies, but it's also a fact that Mac OS X has two totally separate bits of code that implement the look of widgets - one for Carbon and one for Cocoa. This is inefficient, and leads to small differences in appearance that the user will notice, and it is odd. It's unnecessary because one piece of code that generates the look of widgets is all that's needed, and could be shared/leveraged by both technologies. That's just one example. If you want to get a better look at what goes on within Apple, try joinin gon of the developer mailing lists. You'll soon have a list as long as your arm of people, who matter, that also think it's "counterproductive and unnecessary". Naturally there is no need to name names, because in fact the feeling is rather general. I believe the statement from this perspective is actually quite neutral. It's a fair criticism of Apple, and as an Apple loyalist, I truly hope somethign is done about it. Graham 07:17, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I am also a Mac developer, and I don't see significant rivalry between Carbon and Cocoa anymore. New API's are either non-Carbonish C (SearchKit), or Cocoaish Objective-C (QTKit), or both (AddressBook). Carbon development is stalling. I agree that the rivalry was counterproductive, but I don't see how it is now. The fact that there are two different pieces of code is a necessary evil if Apple wants to provide both backwards compatibility and a modern OO API. Apparently not everyone agrees that the statement is factual and NPOV, so I also feel that it must be rephrased.  — David Remahl 09:30, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV comment removed 

message: I removed the npov notice last week (see comment above), but it was put back by an anonymous user with few other contributions on his list without any justification. Please describe why you think the article is POVy, if you want to put the notice on the page. — David Remahl 11:47, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-appearing npov notice 

message: Apple have been criticised for their vertically integrated business model, which runs against the grain of much of the 'received wisdom' of economists, particularly for the computer industry. 
Somebody changed the above so that the word 'received' was removed, presumably because they feel that to say this is POV. The trouble is that it renders the sense of the sentence completely different. By received wisdom I mean the bulk of text books and other education that students of economics receive. It's not POV to say that, that's how economists learn their stuff! These text books almost invariably suggest that vertical integration is a bad model for the computer industry. Yet, Apple turn a profit. So the received wisdom isn't always infallible, which is my point. If the word 'received' is removed, this suggests that economists are incontrovertably wise, without question. THAT is seriously POV, and demonstrably false.Graham 23:31, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Received wisdom 

message: This article seems to have deteriorated within the past few months. It used to have a lot of context, and was pretty good. Currently, the article mostly comprises of lists, and not much context/pictures. It also deserves a better lead, or at least two lengthly paragraphs. A summarized version of the History of Apple Computer article should be included in the History section. This article should be up to FA standard, but unfortunately it's not, let's change that. There are much better company articles on Wikipedia, for example see Microsoft or IBM as typical examples. Putting this article up for peer review might help, or maybe the Article Improvement Drive to get it ready for the Featured Article status that it deserves! — Wackymacs 18:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not as good as it used to be 

message: "Following September 11, 2001, Apple Computer began firing and facilitating the racially motivated deportation of dozens of segregated ethnic minorities, including individuals who had developed Mac OS X. Shortly thereafter, several Mac OS X-related projects were handed over to unqualified employees with no relevant Computer Science, or otherwise technical qualifications. Mac OS X has since changed very little, while tens of thousands of new bugs have been reported on it. OS X remains a historical remnant of Apple Computer's purchase of NeXT, being replaced by iPod as Apple's new hope for survival."
Is there a source on this? The last sentance in particular is factually inaccurate, there ahve been Substantial OS X changes (core video/audio, Quartz Extreme, etc) since release.. 
E1ven 03:03, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
: Nice try, so you remove a valid section of the Article because you take it personally when someone suggests something Negative about Apple, and then you replace it with a Homesexual Employees at Apple section and also use this as an opportunity to advertise Apple's marketing labels.  Your "substantial" OSX Changes are just new Trademark and marketing labels that Apple uses on old existing products to make them look new.- Rostam Payamehr 11:00, Oct 25, 2005
::First of all, that was over 10 months ago.  Second of all, it's not a valid section if it's comprised of unfounded and unsubstantiated claims of racial discrimination.  If you have a source, feel free to reference it and write a factual section.  Bbatsell 18:32, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic firing