Talk:Nommo

message: I've cleaned up the article.  Are we ok to remove the NPOV and Standards tags?
Isotope23 15:21, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the tags.  If anyone disputes the neutrality of this article or feels it need further work, go ahead and restore the tags.  Isotope23 1 July 2005 12:55 (UTC)
=== sentence ===
"Some have made a connection between the Nommo and the "ancient ones" in the Cthulhu stories of H.P. Lovecraft." Removed as unsourced.  If you can source this claim, add it back in.--Isotope23 19:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Remove Tags?

message: "Some have made a connection between the Nommo and the "ancient ones" in the Cthulhu stories of H.P. Lovecraft." Removed as unsourced.  If you can source this claim, add it back in.--Isotope23 19:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  sentence 

message: The former phrase "astronomers Peter Pesch and Roland Pesch", though a reasonable conjecture, is incorrect.  I am the
Roland Pesch who was one of the authors of the cited article.  I am not now, nor have I ever been 8-) an astronomer.  That
distinction belongs only to my brother Peter, the other author.  I have rephrased to make it clear that only one
astronomer was involved; another, perhaps clearer, formulation would be simply to avoid stating the profession of
either of us, which would also have the virtue of being more concise...
Rhpesch (talk) 18:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor correction of a citation

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I an removing the below controversy section as per my edit summary. It is so inappropriate. The editor(s) copied and pasted the same old rubbish all over Dogon articles. This article is about the religion /spiritual beliefs or mythology of the Dogon. People come here because that's what they want to learn about, not some silly Western scholars or so called scholars arguments about these people.  Almost the entirely article was dominated by this silly Sirius stuff and people arguing over it — copying and pasting it all over Dogon articles. Notice however that, these controversy nonsense are not in Griaule and Dieterien articles. If one wants to create a controversy article, create Criticism of Dogon religion or something like that. Not to use our articles and fill it with rubbish stuff that has nothing to do with the article in the first place. This has been here for years and I'm surprise that few have taken action. I come here to read about the Nommo and Dogon spiruality and mythology, not what some Western scholars and so called scholars are arguing about. I am deleting this nonsense. This should go in the articles of those scholars/writers. Where it even deserve mention, see also, or a brief summary with respect to weight is quite sufficient. Not to fill up Dogon articles with rubbish and irrelevant stuff. Take it out with the authors. Any particular reason why those biographies do not have these controversies or criticism, yet are in many Dogon's articles? Hmm! I don't care what Griaule or Temple said or anybody else thinks or said.  I don't care what scholar X or wannabe scholar X says or thinks of Griaule or Temple's work. I am here to learn about the Nommo, not to spend my time reading waffle. 
::Controversy
::In the 1970s a book by Robert Temple titled The Sirius Mystery popularized the traditions of the Dogon concerning Sirius and the Nommos.  In The Sirius Mystery, Temple advanced the conclusion that the Dogon’s knowledge of astronomy and non-visible cosmic phenomenon could only be explained if this knowledge had been imparted upon them by an extraterrestrial race that had visited the Dogon at some point in the past. Temple related this race to the legend of the Nommos and contended that the Nommos were extraterrestrial inhabitants of the Sirius star system who had travelled to Earth at some point in the distant past and had imparted knowledge about the Sirius star system as well as the Solar System upon the Dogon tribes.
::Walter van Beek, an anthropologist studying the Dogon, found no evidence that they had any historical advanced knowledge of Sirius.  Van Beek postulated that Griaule engaged in such leading and forceful questioning of his Dogon sources that new myths were created in the process by confabulation, writing that "though they do speak about sigu tolo [what Griaule claimed was Sirius] they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule". Carl Sagan has noted that the first reported association of the Dogon with the knowledge of Sirius as a binary star was in the 1940s, giving the Dogon ample opportunity to gain cosmological knowledge about Sirius and the Solar System from more scientifically advanced, terrestrial societies whom they had come in contact with.  It has also been pointed out that binary star systems like Sirius are theorized to have a very narrow or non-existent Habitable zone, and thus a high improbability of containing a planet capable of sustaining life (particularly life as dependent on water as the Nommos were reported to be).
::Daughter and colleague of Marcel Griaule, Geneviève Calame-Griaule, defended the project, dismissing Van Beek's criticism as misguided speculation rooted in an apparent ignorance of esoteric tradition. Van Beek continues to maintain that Griaule was wrong and cites other anthropologists who also reject his work.
::The assertion that the Dogon knew of another star in the Sirius system, Emme Ya, or "larger than Sirius B but lighter and dim in magnitude" continues to be discussed. In 1995, gravitational studies indicated the possible existence of a red dwarf star circling around Sirius but further observations have failed to confirm this.
::Space journalist and sceptic James Oberg collected claims that have appeared concerning Dogon mythology in his 1982 book and concedes that such assumptions of recent acquisition are "entirely circumstantial" and have no foundation in documented evidence and concludes that it seems likely that the Sirius mystery will remain exactly what its title implies: a mystery.James Oberg, "Chapter 6, The Sirius Mystery", in UFOs and Outer Space Mysteries, (1982) Donning Press Earlier, other critics such as the astronomer Peter Pesch and his collaborator Roland Pesch and Ian RidpathIan Ridpath, Skeptical Inquirer, Fall 1978 had attributed the supposed "advanced" astronomical knowledge of the Dogon to a mixture of over-interpretation by commentators and cultural contamination.
Senegambianamestudy (talk) 01:17, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree entirely. We can't just cite Griaule and ignore Meeks. If you want to get rid of Temple, fine. This is still about their religious beliefs. The unbalanced tag, like the OR tag, was added before the article was considerably revised and both should have been removed. Your removal is I think a violation of NPOV, feel free to discuss it at WP:NPOVN. Doug Weller talk 16:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the French article on the Dogon says "It is now accepted that this myth of Sirius B, as well as other astronomical facts not observable with the naked eye that the Dogon cosmogony would have integrated, such as the four largest moons of Jupiter 12 or the rings of Saturn 12 , are most likely a case of "cultural contamination", and that this knowledge would have entered Dogon culture only during recent contacts with Westerners". This sort of cultural contamination has also damaged our understanding of Native American religion. Doug Weller talk 16:15, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: When I deleted that section it was nothing against Meek or any scholar. Because the section I deleted (the waffle section) contained citation about Meek, it was deleted for the waffling reasons rather than about Meek. The issue seems to be the article, and similar articles spends a lot of time and space discussing controvercies and arguments about one scholar against another rather than what the article should be about. Of course any controversies should be included per sources, but IMO, those controvercies should go under the biographical article of the scholar who made the work. The problem is, a lot of these copy and pastes are in the Dogon articles rather than the article of the author (who did the work in the first place). In the end, we just end up learning nothing about the Dogon or the subject of the article e.g. Nommo. For me that's what I'm concerned about. All I'm saying is that people who check these articles want to learn about the culture and spiritual system of these people. If we have 3/4 of the article merely discussing scholarly arguments rather than the spiritual beliefs of these people, the reader ends up learning nothing just some scholarly arguments. I see you've added it back. It's ok. Senegambianamestudy (talk) 22:34, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  thanks for your reasonable attitude, which of course is what I would expect from you. When I've raised similar issues I've usually been told that the answer is to add relevant material to the article, not delete. You seem to be a good person to do this. Doug Weller talk 16:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing irrelevant clutter