Talk:Jewish partisans

message: I question the inclusion of Mordechaj Anielewicz as a partisan. He is firmly associated with the Jewish underground, whereas I know of no evidence that he was associated with or took part in partisan combat, nor does this appear (explicitly, anyway) in the Wikipedia article about him. -- Deborahjay 08:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we are using the definition of partisan (military) as meaning guerillas or those who engage in guerilla warfare, then those in the ghettos, and the parachutists may not belong in this article or in the list. heqs 12:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Mordechaj Anielewicz]] a partisan?

message: I'm editing the link for the Bielski partisans to that article, rather than The Bielski Brothers. I'm familiar with both articles, having edited them. The former is more comprehensive, while the latter is about a particular book on the topic. -- Deborahjay 12:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking of the list as a list of people rather than groups, in which case the "noted" or "famous" of the Bielski partisans are the Bielski brothers themselves... I think. That's why I had the link pointing to Bielski partisans but piped to show Bielski brothers. heqs 12:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bielski 

message: It seems there is a question about family camps. AFAIK, they mostly existed in in the deep forests of Ukraine-Belorussia-Poland-Lithuania area. Surely the elderly, the children and the wounded Jews could not live in the Nazi-occupied villages. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Family camps 

message: I would like it if we could try to only add cited facts to this article. In this way, building a new article from the ground up we can easily maintain a high level of quality throughout. heqs 10:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heqs, thanks for being diplomatic. I'll try better. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citing sources 

message: "...who actively killed British service persons in Palestine during the Second World War and thereafter"
Is this a typo or did the author mean "German" or "Nazi". Did the British have a role in supressing the Jewish in Palestine?
: Since the events in the Mandate for Palestine (which see) are irrelevant to the topic at hand, I took the liberty to remove the newly added phrase. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:57, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fought British? 

message: I will within few weeks prepare edits about relations with AK and local population. Stay tuned, because it is controversial topic, I will first post proposed changes here, before I will move them into the article. Szopen 07:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relations with AK and local population 

message: Because I will base my edits on the refereces to this book, I will post the vast quotes from it.
Here is the first portion of the quotes from the
Zygmunt Boradyn: Niemen, rzeka niezgody: Polsko-sowiecka wojna partyzancka na Nowogrodczyznie 1943-1944 (Niemen, the river of disagreement/conflict: Polish-Soviet partisan war on Nowogrodek region 1943-1944)
Warszawa 1999, 1st edition.
Page 84-86
Translation is mine.
EDIT: forgot to sign Szopen 10:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zygmunt Boradyn, Polish-Soviet partisan war - quotes 

message: Here is my first version "alfa" proposal: something like (but a LOT to polishing it!):
"The problem of food provision was growing over time. Local population was increasingly resistant to provide food for the partisans, due to both poverty of population and also in effect of antisemitism present in part of the population. Especially in the 1941/42 "kresy" were plagued by different bands, consisting of Polish, Jewish and deserting soviet soldiers, as well as partisans which were different sometimes only in name. Just as other soviet partisans, after thoughtless destruction of state farms (as on of method of "fighting with fascism") Jewish partisands had to start to rely on robbing the local population for securing the food. Desperate peasants formed self-defense units, and in turn soviet (including Jewish) partisans reacted with heavy-handed retaliations, including murdering the families of resisting peasants, burning the villages (Naliboki, Koniuchy). 
In addition since Jewish partisans were associating mostly with Soviets, they became a side in merciless Polish-Soviet partisan war, during which Polish AK forces and Soviet and Jewish units often clashed. In the result the subject of Jewish partisans is very controversial in Poland, since Polish account accuse most Jewish and Soviet units of activity consisting mostly of robbing, terrorising local population and attacking Polish AK units while avoiding direct confrontation with German units"
Szopen 11:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I considered that at some point as the article was expanded a ==Controversy== (or similarly titled) section would be appropriate to cover these kinds of events. Specific events that involved large numbers of Jewish partisans like Koniuchy massacre would be mentioned. Some of it should be seen in the context of the controversies of the larger Soviet partisan movement, while some is specific to certain groups like the Bielski partisans and most of the details about their actions should probably go in that article. In trying to understand the nature of the controversy, put yourself in the shoes of peasants/farmers who for years are having most of their food and supplies requisitioned or taken by brute force, by Nazis from one side and Soviet (in some cases Jewish) partisans on the other - in some cases both would have been equally despised. (Not just in Poland - Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine too) heqs 11:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would abstain from the changes until all contributors will be able to comment. Anyway, I think the "controversies" part would be nice, though we would have to be careful  with balancing the section and remembering, that what Jewish partisans did, what nothing that unusual (heck, even POlish AK though formed from local peasants sometimes did rob some heinous things) Szopen 07:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal of the changes 

message: Aside from ghetto organizations, were there any non-Soviet aligned Jewish group of partisans in Eastern Europe? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  01:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-Soviet Jewish partisans in Eastern Europe

message: She is listed among the Notable Partisans, but she was a Catholic girl. Could anyone check this? --Meister und Margarita (talk) 17:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Irene Gut Opdyke]] 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Jewish partisans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: With the help of our secondary source “Jewish Resistance and Passivity in the Face of the Holocaust” by Bauer, we found this article troublesome because it does not describe who the specific partisan groups are. What we will do to improve this article is go into detail on specific partisan groups from different countries. We will do this by adding to the section “Notable Partisan Groups” and then creating sub-sections under it with specific groups. We plan to add sub-sections on groups in Lithuania, Poland, Soviet Union and Prussia. With these additions we hope to thicken and enrich the existing article.  If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page.Shelby1996 (talk) 01:18, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Presenting New Changes  

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Jewish partisans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://archive.is/20121218141825/http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_holocaust/documents/part3/doc187.html to http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_holocaust/documents/part3/doc187.html
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*Added archive https://archive.is/20121218135827/http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_holocaust/documents/part3/doc210.html to http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_holocaust/documents/part3/doc210.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The subsection seems strange to me. Facts are:
*Some Jews were memebers of Armia Krajowa, eg. Stanisław Likiernik.
*Some Jews were members of GL, later converted to AL.
*GL murdered about 100 Jews in Ludmiłówka.
Xx236 (talk) 10:40, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poland 

message: Per WP:NOENG, English sources are preferred to non-English ones of the same quality. This is all the more true when the opposing source (a Polish book from a government lustration agency) is of an inferior quality to two academically published books by established historians. This revert - sourced to this Polish language source, which while perhaps true (there were Jews in AK, very few Jews, but exceptions did exist) - grossly misrepresents the wider picture that Jews (groups and individuals) were generally not welcome by the Home Army, and that some Home Army units actively persecuted Jews and Jewish partisans.Holocaust: Responses to the persecution and mass murder of the Jews, edited by David Cesarani & Sarah Kavanaugh, Psychology Press, 2004,  page 66 quote: to the Home Army, the Jews were not part of "our nation", and that action to defend them was not to be taken if it endangered its other objectives. Certainly the Home Army was not willing to absorb the Jewish partisan groups..... (... there was one exception, in Volhynia .... ) The Home Army was also not very willing to accept Jews as individuals, though here too there were exceptionsRemembering Survival: Inside a Nazi Slave-Labor Camp, Christopher Browning, W. W. Norton & Company, page 252, ISBN 978-0-393-33887-4, quote:While a few partisan groups ... would accept Jews, those associated with the AK (the conservative nationalist underground Home Army) usually rejected them. More dangerously, some AK units and especially extremist units associated with the notorious National Armed Forces (NSZ) would either rob Jews or simply kill them outrightIcewhiz (talk) 14:07, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this is just your newer, more sneaky version of the "Polish sources shouldn't be allowed on articles about Polish history. What that policy says is that if there is an English version of a non-English source, or if the English and non-English sources say the same thing, use the English source. It does not, as you are falsely pretending, prohibit the use of non-English sources. As to the content - well, we've been over it numerous times, right? There were high ranking members of the Home Army who were Jewish. So at this point this is just WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT on your part.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: (and any source which describes AK as "conservative nationalist" is garbage. Yes, that applies to Christopher Browning. In fact this is a pretty good example of the CAUTION with which English sources should be treated - they're often clueless about any history that doesn't involve the British or the Americans).Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  per WP:NOENG -  - policy - green on white - English-language sources are preferred when of equal qualify and relevance. Books by Christopher Browning and David Cesarani are of a much higher quality than a publication by a Polish government agency (with bias and political influence concerns). Polish sources, incidentally, often overlook sources that are not in Polish that are highly relevant to the topic. The fact that there were a few high-ranking Jews in the AK (mainly in one locale) - does not change the fact that Jewish groups were almost never accepted into the AK as groups, and Jewish individuals were only rarely and reluctantly accepted. I provided clear quotes from these sources - an editor arguing that a well known Holocaust historian, such a Browning, is writing "garbage" - truly has no policy legs to stand on.Icewhiz (talk) 15:34, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, when they are of same relevance - say the same thing. This is NOT a blanket license to exclude non-English language sources as you falsely pretend. Also, please drop this constant agitation with respect to the IPN. We've been over this numerous times, it's perfectly reliable. You haven't been able to convince ANYONE otherwise.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:42, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The reliability of the IPN is variable between departments (historical research vs. prosecution/lustration and education) and period (per the degree of political influence in the time period at question) - and it has been covered quite critically in RSes regarding memory politics and policies. However, even when one has an IPN source on the better side of the range, it is still inferior than a reputable publisher (journal or book) and in any event per NOENG we would prefer such a source even if it were equal in quality and in English.Icewhiz (talk) 19:58, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

text:  I'll also note that the my reading of page 281 of the Polish language government agency source does not support the text it is referencing.Icewhiz (talk) 16:06, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misrepresentation of the Home army's relationship with Jewish partisan and NOENG

message: The page does not explain that some Jewish groups wanted to survive rather than to fight. They accepted civilians unable to fight. Typical guerilla was military. Xx236 (talk) 07:54, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish partisans 

message: Jewish partisant units didn't play frontline role in resistance. This role was given to Soviet soldiers who were left behind German lines after 1941 offensive. Jewish units due to fact that they were poorly equipped, had little combat experience and often consisted of people with poor health and refugees, were given secondary supportive roles by Soviet command like tending to hospitals, operating field kitchens, and gathering resources from local population. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends. Some units were independent of the Soviets. Some units had crack detachments. And some Jewish partisans were integrated in front-line Soviet units (and in some cases - e.g. in Volhinya - with the AK). Your assertion above is correct in regards to "family camps" - groups which had a large detachment of refugees (women, children, old folk) - it isn't correct in regards to every Jewish unit.Icewhiz (talk) 08:37, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Which units were independent of the Soviets? Name a few please. GizzyCatBella (talk) 15:18, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The partisans engaged in guerrilla warfare and sabotage against the Nazi occupation, instigated teens and freed prisoner"-not really correct 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion