Talk:Filiberto Ojeda Ríos/Archive 1

message: Editors, please, let's try to put only confirmed info. As of right now, the FBI still hasn't confirmed his death, but the government of Puerto Rico has.
Let's keep in mind NPOV. We can't call this an assasination. I prefer the term "apparent" o "alelged" assasination. <<Coburn_Pharr>> 03:06, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A further report here: . Audio at the top of the page. It's an account by Juan-Manuel Garcia-Passalacqua, Puerto Rican "political analyst and radio host", "a Harvard-educated attorney and independent political analyst in Puerto Rico"  He seems to have been quoted by the Washington Post as an independent commentator . The article should include his account (attributed, obviously) Mr. Jones 09:35, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Death

message: The article says Ojeda Ríos was convicted in absentia. I thought such trials were unconstitutional in the US, but apparently I was mistaken. Can anyone shed light on this issue? Thanks. Wmahan. 00:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the laws drawn up to combat organised crime in the 1920s, for instance, were used against Osama bin Laden in 1998 to convict him in abstentia. That's one of the first uses of the term "Al Quaeda" to refer to an organisation, probably because they needed evidence of a organisation to secure a conviction. Mr. Jones 09:35, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

text: On this talk page below, the FBI statement reads, "While free on bond awaiting trial on these original charges, Ojeda-Rios fled and became a fugitive from justice. In his absence, Ojeda-Rios was convicted and sentenced to 55 years in prison."  I was working on that assumption.  Not allowing an imprisoned or (if bailed) appearing defendant to attend his own trial would be grossly unconstitutional.  Defendants, however, flee often enough, so trials in absentia are not uncommon. Xoloz 09:59, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

text: By the way, I created the article in absentia based on my limited knowledge of the subject. Wmahan. 06:04, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: In absentia

message: Do not tolerate vandalism on this page. Questions of his political beliefs and methods must be handled with care.......keep an eye on neutral point of view. Also, let's try to provide links in the article.<<Coburn_Pharr>> 00:54, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutral Point of View

message: Filiberto Ojeda Rios was shot by two bullets, one on the right clavicle and other in the back, while in a shootout with the FBI. He probably died of an hemorrhage.
At the time of death, the revolutionary leader and a terrorist to others, had on a bulletproof vest, and was dressed on camouflaged pants and hat, said the government officials.
Ojeda Rios body was found lying face down, just in front of the door of the rural residence where he was hiding. At his right side, a pistol was found by the forensic investigators. More than 20 bullet casings where found at the crime scene, including some AR-15 shells.
The investigators observed two bullet holes that came from the outside of the residence, both to the side of the main entrance door. Only on the back of the residence another bullet hole was found, this one facing to the outside. 
It has been told that FBI agents are still on the scene of the events investigating a series of documents that where left burning on cement wall that simulates a [fogón]. 
Local authorities have been aloud inside the residence after more than 22 hours of the beginning of this operative. "More than enough time to contaminate or arrange the crime scene", said Ojeda's followers. 
The FBI claims that it was after one of there agents got shot that they open fire against the 72 year old Ojeda. He was with his wife at the time. After that a perimeter was established by the local police, and no person was allowed to enter the area. Not by land or air. Attempts of a local news crew of getting closer with a chopper were unsuccessful after being threaten that they were trespassing federal airspace and they will be handle with deadly force if needed. 
During the operative to capture Ojeda, his wife was arrested an a federal agent received a wound to the stomach, says the FBI. Elma Beatriz Rosado, Ojeda's widow, was released from federal custody.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Insomaniac (talk • contribs) 05:55, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually in recent polls the majority of Puerto Ricans said they thought memembers of the Independence Party were more trust-worthy than the Statehood or Commonwealth parties.  Why is that?  Food for thought.  Fact is, in the last plebicite, both Statehood and Commonwealth lost to "None of the Above" which won a majority.  More food for thought.  Lastly, lack of support for the Nationalist Party, is not the same as lack of support for Nationalism, and take in to consideration that many Nationalists don't believe any plebicite that ultimately is subject to the US Congress decision and not the people's isn't democratic or legitamate, so what's the point of voting in it anyway.  Of course, I'm taking this side in response to harline position of our friend here.  Sociological data, like voting patterns, polls, and so on and their implications are up for debate, always, so long as soudn theories can explain them.  It all depneds on how you look at them and present them.  I could say that George W. Bush won half of the vote, or I could say that 75% of the eligable populace didn't even vote for him.  Half empty, half full.  May I suggest that perhaps a "neutral" view may be less relavant as to presenting different sides and interpritations.--128.59.143.41 05:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scene 

message: Luis S. Fraticelli, Special Agent in Charge, San Juan Division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation FBI, is providing the following information regarding the attempted capture of Filiberto Ojeda-Rios (Ojeda-Rios):	 
	 
On August 30 , 1985 , a federal grand jury indicted Ojeda-Rios, the proclaimed leader of the Ejercito Popular Boricua-Macheteros. Ojeda-Rios and several other members of Los Macheteros were indicted for robbery and transportation of stolen money stemming from the September 12 , 1983 robbery of approximately $7 million from Wells Fargo Armored Services Corporation , in West Hartford, Connecticut .	 
	 
While free on bond awaiting trial on these original charges, Ojeda-Rios fled and became a fugitive from justice. In his absence, Ojeda-Rios was convicted and sentenced to 55 years in prison.	 
	 
On September 25 , 1990 , an arrest warrant was issued by the United States District Court of Connecticut charging Ojeda-Rios with having violated Title 18, United States Code (USC), Section 3148 (Bond Default).	 
	 
On September 20 , 2005 , the FBI developed information regarding the whereabouts of Ojeda-Rios. On that same day, the FBI began conducting surveillance and a tactical operation in the Hormigueros area of Puerto Rico in an effort to confirm the exact whereabouts of Ojeda-Rios. Subsequently, it was determined that Ojeda-Rios was present at a Hormigueros residence/farm house.	 
	 
On September 23 , 2005 , FBI agents were conducting surveillance of the Hormigueros farm house when it was determined that their presence had been detected. Because the operation potentially had been compromised, the FBI agents decided to go ahead and execute the warrant for the arrest of Ojeda-Rios. As the FBI agents approached the front of the farm house at approximately 4:28 p.m., Ojeda-Rios opened the front door to the residence and opened fire on the FBI agents. As a result, one FBI agent was shot and severely wounded. Two other FBI agents were shot, although they were not wounded because of their protective equipment. 
	 
In response to the gunfire from Ojeda-Rios, the FBI returned fire and established a defensive perimeter in order to contain the environment.	 
	 
At three separate points in time, gunfire was fired at the FBI agents from the direction of the residence. Because of the ongoing gunfire, FBI decided not to enter the residence. The FBI also was aware that Ojeda-Rios and Los Macheteros both have a history of possessing explosives. For safety reasons, the FBI then requested additional agents, police dogs, and specialized equipment, as well as an FBI tactical team based in the United States.	 
	 
At one point in the encounter, Ojeda-Rios' wife, Elma Beatriz Rosado Barbosa, safely exited the residence. She was not injured by gunfire at any point in time. Although she was initially detained, she has been released from federal custody. 
	 
On September 24 , 2005 , an FBI tactical team from the United States entered the residence and discovered that Ojeda-Rios was deceased. So far, one weapon has been discovered inside of the residence. The investigation is on-going. 
*I removed the section on the Federal Arrest Warrant. Resons for this were:
# It is redundant; the information on that section was already in the section of Crime Scene (which by the way, will be renamed.....Crime Scene goes against the neutral point of view policy..it will be renamed Scene of the Operation).
# Some parts of it were speculation.
# The picture of the federal agent with the word 'Asesino..(assasin)  in it is a serious violation of NPOV. It was removed.
Vandalisms to this article will not be tolerated.<<Coburn_Pharr>> 17:27, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "who like the vast majority of us believe that people who want to further their political interests through the merits of explosives rather than the merits of democracry should be squashed."  Yeah how's that going?  Did it work when the FBI came and assasinated all the others int eh islands history?  How about the Ponce Massacre?  What "democracy" are you talking about?  The one that subjects Puerto Ricans to the US congress denies Puerto Ricans the vote in the body of "representatives"?  That drafts them in wars which they didn't pick?  Where they can't vote for the adminstration who makes the policies?  You are right, most Puerto Ricans do respect democracy, and the nationalists have taken their pleas to the Supreme Court, the US Congress and the United Nations (who ruled in thier favor), but it doesn't seem to me the US gov't has any respect for any of that.  Obviously, I don't agree with the FALN, becasue I haven't chosen that path myself, but statements that are so one-side as to damn them as villians are stupid.  Any conflict has at least two sides, and at least two parties fighting.  It was after the FBI violence that killed this man.  The FBI wasn't being too democratic about achieving thier goals.--128.59.143.41 05:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Execution of the Federal arrest warrant 

message: It seems very soon after his death to be protecting this article. I hope it will only be for a few hours not a few days, SqueakBox 03:23, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Somebody protected this at around 0300 UTC today "for cooling off" and I tagged it, but forgot to check back.  There was a reminder on WP:RFPP so I've come back and unprotected. --Tony SidawayTalk 18:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Protection

message: I feel partly responsible for the vandalism that has been going on.  I posted a link to the Filiberto Ojeda Rios page on a comment to a blog post, here's a link to the blog:
http://www.endi.com/blogs/?p=33
My username on this blog is JULIOEM, my comment is dated Septiembre 26th, 2005 at 4:16 pm
It is a reputable blog, established by the Director of "El Nuevo Dia".  However, spirits are high right now in Puerto Rico and it might be best to keep Ojeda's page locked for a few days.
I took the time to look over the Preface and Bigraphy sections to Ojeda's page and found some minor corrections that should be made:
Preface section:
"His death has caused mourning and protests among the Puerto Rican Independence movement. [1]"
Inproper link format "[1]" and it links to an ouside news source that is not proper to the context of the Preface.
Recommend deletion of link.
Biography section:
second paragraph:
General Intelligence Directorate (GDI) links to Wikepedia "edit this page" tab of "General Intelligence Directorate (GDI) instead of article tab. 
Recommend link be changed to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Intelligence_Directorate
third paragraph:
In 1967 he founded and led the very first of Puerto Rico's new militant political groups, the Armed Revolutionary Independence Movement (MIRA).
The link to "Armed Revolutionary Independence Movement (MIRA)" links to the "edit this page" tab for this Wikipedia entry and the following message:
"Wikipedia does not yet have a page called Armed Revolutionary Independence Movement"
Recommend this link be deleted.
He subsequently skipped bail and moved to New York, organizing the Armed Forces of National Liberation (FALN)
Same problem as the (MIRA) link, links to edit tab of a page wikepedia does not yet have
Recommend this link be deleted.
Fourth Paragraph:
In 1976, Ojeda Ríos renamed the FALN to the Boricua Popular Army —or Ejército Popular Boricua
The link to "Ejercito Popular Boricua" links to the edit tab of a page wikepedia does not have yet, however, the link to "Boricua Popular Army" will work here.
Recomend link to "Ejercito Popular Boricua" be changed to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boricua_Popular_Army
I'll continue proof reading the article tomorrow and include my findings with corrections.
Thanks in advance
JULIO 04:20, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor Edits Needed 

message: This is not neutrally stated.  
"he was involved in the efforts of the revolutionary Cuba intelligence in that city to promote independent sentiment in that city, and after that, he came back to Puerto Rico and founded what was known as the Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros, the clandestine sector of the nationalist movement in Puerto Rico that was responsible, as you know, for several successful attacks, including the blowing up of several airplanes in the military base in San Juan for $45 million, and later for the assault of a truck, a brinks truck in Hartford, Connecticut, also successful, again, in the course of independence.
He was tried for those events in a federal court in Puerto Rico, and he was absolved unanimously by a Puerto Rican jury. I had the chance of interviewing him on television that day, and we remained friends from that day on. And he obviously was very proud of the fact that the Puerto Rican jury had absolved him of all crimes and had decided -- and this is the official decision of the jury -- that he had acted in legitimate defense against the forces of the United States."
So charges were brought, but many of them were dropped. That is highly significant. Mr. Jones 09:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Charges against him 

message: I have a trouble with the POV of this statement.  While I'm not saying it is untrue, what is an example of not an "ultra-minority" group?  Must we go on every wikipedia page and label all loby groups "ultra-minority"?  What are the particulars of ultra-minority?  In other words when do you become an ultra-minority?  Is when you are less than 5%?  Or is it numerical, like less than 10,000?  I mean, I think while technically correct, it sounds completely politically charged.  Could I say that the the wealthy in the US are an ultra-minority, or the media is an an ultra-minority, or those serving in the US armed forces are an ultra-minority?  I'm just asking for some clarification.--128.59.143.41 06:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ultra-minority? 

message: Can we please have a citation on the money going to fund the independece moevement and Cuba?  It should also be mentioned they used the funds to buy toys for inner-city children:
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=%22wells+fargo%22+macheteros+toys+children&btnG=Google+Search
128.59.143.41 (talk) 06:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wells Fargo Money 

message: I deleted a link to an obituary written by The Economist, only because the link leads to a page that didn't seem to contain a link to the article. The obituary is real, it's premium content at The Economist's own Web site. The edit quoted The Economist as saying Ojeda was described in his adolescence as having "an engaging degree of intelligence". I don't know what was actually written in that obituary, but in English "engaging degree" is nonsense. You can say "high degree of intelligence" or "engaging intelligence". This example of moronic prose is typical of adulatory writing about Quixotic revolutionaries like Ojeda Rios. I have just cleaned up other examples in the same editing session, like "he joined a band ... he performed" [on two instruments] "on stage". The "on stage" — he was a professional musician in an established local band! Yeah on stage! Notice that this section of the article (his prerevolutionary years) has a huge gap — 25 years — between age 15 and age 40. He enters college at 15, joins the band at an unspecified date, then "moves his family to Cuba" in 1961 (age 40). Did he finish college? Did he work in the band for like 18 years? When did he get married? Again, the prevalence of morons among people who worship people like Ojeda Rios. Hurmata (talk) 13:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I  have restored sourced material from The Economist. The original article can be found here 1 and a complete copy of the text is also available (www.independencia.net/ingles/te_filibertoOjeda.html) --J.Mundo (talk) 13:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miscellaneous comments on poor writing 

message: Standards for Inclusion
Given the POV issues in the article, the same strict standards for inclusion should be applied to all edits including those of the pro nationalist editors. There is no reliable secondary source with a reputation for fact checking (this definition excludes socialist propaganda webpages) that reports this Committee's unpassed draft resolution. The citation is to a primary source which violates WP:RS. The citation provided is not even an official U.N. document. Given these facts, the paragraph should be excluded until a reliable secondary source is found. 
::: Off topic: The pending request for mediation of the Oscar Lopez Rivera page doesn't have any participants (yet) from the group of editors that participates in editing this page. Given the level of concern over bias and the correct interpretation of policy, participation by these editors would be extremely helpful and provide a basis for resolution of similar disputes on other pages. Eudemis (talk) 22:44, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: U.N. Committee Draft

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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