Talk:Tibet/Archive 3

message: China is multi-ethnic and multi-cultural. We have tens of different languages, many places issued their own currency, had their own government from time to time. There are Tibetan communities in Han majority provinces outside of Tibet. Should these people be forcibly seperated from Han Chinese and evicted to Tibet in your opinon? I am a Mongolian-Han mix, do you have a place for me in your definition of China? 
The Han ethnic group is itself a hybrid of several different groups. Tibet is a frontier region and historically China had not forced assimilation on this region while other countries ethnically cleaned their own frontiers. So now we have an awkward transition period where China's critics can wag their fingers while sitting comfortably in their ethnically cleansed countries.
I don't like how the CCP treats Chinese people everywhere, not just in Tibet. Policy mistakes in the last several decades effected all of China. I certainly sympathize with Tibetans because from their POV those polices came from an outside culture, and to a large degree the Chinese government is responsible for it's own bad press.
The time for repressing Tibtan culture however is in the past. Today's China is building monastaries and temples there. We can only hope time can heal the damage. People do get arrested still, but not for being Buddhists, rather for taking part in sedition and insurrections. The vast majority of Tibetans live in peace and are free to practice their culture.
There are limitations in the way the religious centers are ran because there is a security dimension to religion there. How do one justify calling for non-interferance in the monastaries when these institutions call for violent insurrections? The same is true in many countries where Islamic preachers are abusing their positions to incite terrorism. Remarkably, in Tibetan communities in Sichuan or Qinhai provinces there is no problem displaying portraits of the Dali Lama - because the security concern does not exist. The forbidding of his portrait in Tibet does not come from an anti-Tibetan policy.
It is however nonsense to believe Han Chinese have done nothing but damage Tibet. Tibetan living standard have been dramatically improved in every measureable way. You may believe their culture was intruded upon, but there is no escape from modernity. Do you really think Tibetans want someone to take away their televisions, movie theaters, schools and hospitals?
Today Lhasa is a developed city with highrise buildings, Mercedes on the paved roads, Tibetans in shopping malls buying gold watches. The main complaint from Tibetans is that Chinese have an unfair competitive advantage in the new economy, not that this economy shouldn't exist. This view of Tibet "The Snow Leopard" is a very one-sided view of a developing region of China, treating it with biased romanticism and mysticism.
CCPs poor treatment of its citizens is improving but has a long long way to go. I think the overall trend is good and people should work toward the overall good. Hopefully China will eventually democratize and liberalize as everyone in China wants. The present Chinese government is doing the best it could to heal past wounds in Tibet. Unfortunantly the seperatist movement supported by Tibetan exiles and China critics is not helping the matter. For example China is promoting autonomy for Tibet, but autonomy cannot become cultural segregation which would only produce more problems later.
If we are all to live in harmony, then we all have to live and let live, at the same time allow assimilation to take course. China needs to help Tibetans get better education and job opportunities, and Tibetan nationalists need to accept infrastructure investment like the new railroad as opportunities for a better life. This is already happening, whether we have the Dali Lama's cooperation or not.
Thanks for listening.--Comrade Conrad 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Free Tibet Supporters from a Chinese: 

message: With regard to official PRC statistics on population and population groups in historical Tibetan areas, I want to ask for some clarity, if possible, on the "Other" category. This is important as some of the ethnic minorities categorized by the PRC as "Other" in terms of the "Major Ethnic Groups In Greater Tibet by Region, 2000 Census" chart on the Tibet Article, may be considered by Tibetans as Tibetan groups. 
There is some variance that may appear as groups like Sherpas, Monpas, Jongpos, Lhopas and others which are culturally and historically Tibetan groups are not to my knowledge recognized as such by the PRC. With regard to Sherpas themselves, I am aware that they reside more in central Tibetan areas and also in Nepal (where they are considered a distinct ethnic group of Tibetan ancestry). I am unaware of any of the other groups, but some exiled Tibetans have made some reference to these groups in the past.
I wonder if anyone has any more info on these groups particularly as they relate to this issue and the Tibet Article, as well as the various views by the PRC, the Tibetan Gov't in exile, and any opinions by any people from any of these ethnic groups themselves as to their status and categorization. Summaries of this info could be included in the Demographics section of the article so that readers could gain a more accurate or balanced idea of cultural and historical Tibet. More detailed presentations of this info could better help any specific Wikipedia articles on the groups themselves. 
It's just a idea and a question.
Thank you for any help you can provide me with on this.
--Aishwarya888 20:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity and Statistical Variance (Han, Tibetan, and Other?) 

message: I do not think that this article should be part of wiki project china (ie not be related ro china relanted articles, but rather tibet related ones) It is a very politically contencious issue; Tibet, its occupation is illegal under international law and China has committed human rights abuses in Tibet. Who agrees with me?--Segafreak2 11:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fine where it belongs. Tibet's status is as much of a concern to the CCP as it is to Tibetan separatists.--Lssah 88 22:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A majority of the territory of what is known as "historical Tibet" is now part of China. So the current setting is okay. "Legal" or "illegal", international viewpoint is not always neutral. Heilme 22:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Historical Tibet and historical China overlap. For long periods both governments performed some governmental functions in the same territory with respect to the Tibetan and Chinese populations. Fred Bauder 17:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the China project template should stay, but, in order to assuge any hard feelings, I have moved the Central Asia project template so that it appears first.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 18:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't agree. Where is the proof of "Tibet, its occupation is illegal under international law"? I just saw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#Third-Party_views
"...even today international legal experts sympathetic to the Dalai Lama's cause find it difficult to argue that Tibet ever technically established its independence of the Chinese Empire, imperial, or republican" [20] --Klim2000 02:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No great power ever recognized the independence of Tibet. Fred Bauder 03:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's not about the independence of Tibet! It's "China-related". That doesn't have to mean that whatever gets tagged belongs to China. Who's going to deny that Tibet is "China-related"? --Sumple (Talk) 04:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wiki Project China 

message: It just occurred to me that the Republic of China also claims Tibet to be a part of China. So say history is reversed and the communists fled to Taiwan with the ROC remaining in control of the mainland. Chiang Kai-Shek would still have gone after Tibet and forcibly re-integrate it with China. So it seems like no matter what happens, and regardless of what the ruling government, Tibet will always be a part of China at various points in her history. It might become temporarily detached from China when she succumbs to internal turmoil and division (god forbid it ever happens again), but it will always be re-integrated back with China by a strong unifier, ala Mao Zedong/Qin Shi-huang type. The region is too strategically important for any sane Chinese leader to ignore.--Lssah 88 03:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You, sir/madam, are out of your mind.--Iamlondon 02:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Finally somebody understood it! Yes, so it is almost equally insane to argue with average Chinese that Tibet should be freed. I am a proud Chinese. Freeing Tibet sounds like cutting Chinese legs to me. I am ready to fight again any attempt of freeing Tibet! Really! --Klim2000 23:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Chinese freedom means someone else's slavery, what worth is that freedom?  Zilch.  Perhaps you should try getting your legs amputated and compare the sensation when Tibet acquires its freedom.Skookum1 00:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  How do you know there IS a slavery. For god sake, please give concrete evidences when talking about things. --Klim2000 01:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Would you like to see a video clip of what the Chinese did in Tibet? I can post here, for everyone to see, footage of what they have done to the Tibetans. A clip that contains images of headless bodies, raped children, monks with no ears, nuns who've had their breasts cut off, an abbot who had an electric cattle prod shoved in his mouth to electrocute him (thereby setting fire to his mouth and leaving blood pouring out of his head until he was dead). So I ask you, would you like me to post that link here for everyone to see? Have you got the guts to see it? What about a charming little clip of the aftermath of the Tiananmen Square Massacre? How about some charming photos of what the Chinese Communist lunacy did during the 'Cultural Revolution'? The PRC is led by a pariah government whose leaders are attacked by protests wherever they go in the Free World. It is to the West's eternal shame that we humour this murderous regime for no other reason than money. The truest victims are the Chinese people themselves, in a land where there is no freedom of speech, no democracy and no real judicial process of law. Get a grip - if you're a Chinese patriot then start speaking up for your people and not the government that kills them and keeps them oppressed.--Iamlondon 02:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Post it right here and I would like to see it. I do not believe what you said about China because I grew up in there, and I left China only 5 years ago. I don't know  much about Tibet, so please, show me what you have and I will decide myself. 69.166.226.1 05:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That sounds more like a threat towards world war than anything else, Klim2000.  Do you have any idea how politically immature you sound?  Sure, George Bush is a bozo.  So is the current Chinese regime.  And so are you, for thinking that the subjugation of another people is a valid condition of your own nation's imperial stature.  If so, then your empire is as corrupt and venal as all others in human history - and it, too, shall fall.  Only time outlasts human vanity.  Even Chinese vanities.  Your national ego means nothing if it is built on the backs and souls of your state's victims, be it Tibetans or the hapless, if deluded, members of Falun Dafa.Skookum1 00:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  He does have a point. It is impossible for Tibet to achieve independence unless the PRC is destabilized, and if that happens, the world has something else to worry about than just Tibet. At least the PRC are not herding the Tibetans into reserves, something which the US had already done with their natives.--Lssah 88 17:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  I might be politically immature. But you might be immature in terms of common sense. Please honestly answer me: Have you ever been to Tibet? Have you ever talked to the average Tibetans? How do you know there is a subjugation of another people? --Klim2000 01:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disingenuousness is a trait of PRC propagandists.  "Who, us?"  Look, I HAVE talked to average Tibetans-in-exile, and it's well-known that anyone in the PRC who speaks publicly, or to foreigners, concerning the repressive nature of the Communist Party and its rule over Tibet as well as China proper and Eastern Turkestan/Xinjiang is going to get in a lot of trouble, and perhaps tortured, executed and their organs placed on the open market.  You're obviously a shill for Chinese imperialism, and there's no point in asking if you have no shame, because you don't.Skookum1 17:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen! And the disgrace is that the 'Editors' haven't the guts to lay the fact of propaganda in this article out in the open. The PRC Regime is extremely active on the internet in spreading its lies and deceit. Fake websites, fake Tibetan Leaders (paid), fake 'News Services'. Thanks for standing up and being counted.--Iamlondon 03:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No doubt your views are biased since your only source of information about Tibet are from "Tibetans-in-exile". At the very least, if you feel that strongly about the issue, you should travel to Tibet and learn about the truth THERE.--Lssah 88 18:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been to Tibet - people are, as in the rest of Chinese controlled territory, terrified of being caught by the secret police speaking about anything the government frowns upon. I saw a man get dragged off the street by the army simply for speaking to a journalist. Ask Amnesty International what they think of the PRC Regime. --Iamlondon 21:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose Amnesty International was also around to document how Tibetan serfs were brutally treated by their slave masters prior to Chinese rule, hmmm? Required Reading --Lssah 88 20:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: What do you mean by "handing over its historical enormous empire to China"? Do they also teach you about the Opium Wars in British schools? Guess not...--Lssah 88 20:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Will Tibet ever be indefinitely free? 

message: Whoever wants to separate Tibet has to demolish China first. That is simply the fact. And mostly, only the (potential) enemies of China want to do so and therefore they constantly make propaganda to advocate "free Tibet" compaign, which is "weakening China" essentially. For general western public, think twice before response such advocates with any personal energy. Like think twice when somebody claimed there was weapons of massive destruction in Iraq.  --Klim2000 23:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you like to see a video clip of what the Chinese did in Tibet? I can post here, for everyone to see, footage of what they have done to the Tibetans. A clip that contains images of headless bodies, raped children, monks with no ears, nuns who've had their breasts cut off, an abbot who had an electric cattle prod shoved in his mouth to electrocute him (thereby setting fire to his mouth and leaving blood pouring out of his head until he was dead). So I ask you, would you like me to post that link here for everyone to see? Have you got the guts to see it? What about a charming little clip of the aftermath of the Tiananmen Square Massacre? How about some charming photos of what the Chinese Communist lunacy did during the 'Cultural Revolution'? The PRC is led by a pariah government whose leaders are attacked by protests wherever they go in the Free World. It is to the West's eternal shame that we humour this murderous regime for no other reason than money. The truest victims are the Chinese people themselves, in a land where there is no freedom of speech, no democracy and no real judicial process of law. Get a grip - if you're a Chinese patriot then start speaking up for your people and not the government that kills them and keeps them oppressed.--Iamlondon 02:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Post it right here and I would like to see it. I do not believe what you said about China because I grew up in there, and I left China only 5 years ago. I don't know  much about Tibet, so please, show me what you have and I will decide myself. 69.166.226.1 05:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: That sounds more like a threat towards world war than anything else, Klim2000.  Do you have any idea how politically immature you sound?  Sure, George Bush is a bozo.  So is the current Chinese regime.  And so are you, for thinking that the subjugation of another people is a valid condition of your own nation's imperial stature.  If so, then your empire is as corrupt and venal as all others in human history - and it, too, shall fall.  Only time outlasts human vanity.  Even Chinese vanities.  Your national ego means nothing if it is built on the backs and souls of your state's victims, be it Tibetans or the hapless, if deluded, members of Falun Dafa.Skookum1 00:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  He does have a point. It is impossible for Tibet to achieve independence unless the PRC is destabilized, and if that happens, the world has something else to worry about than just Tibet. At least the PRC are not herding the Tibetans into reserves, something which the US had already done with their natives.--Lssah 88 17:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  I might be politically immature. But you might be immature in terms of common sense. Please honestly answer me: Have you ever been to Tibet? Have you ever talked to the average Tibetans? How do you know there is a subjugation of another people? --Klim2000 01:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disingenuousness is a trait of PRC propagandists.  "Who, us?"  Look, I HAVE talked to average Tibetans-in-exile, and it's well-known that anyone in the PRC who speaks publicly, or to foreigners, concerning the repressive nature of the Communist Party and its rule over Tibet as well as China proper and Eastern Turkestan/Xinjiang is going to get in a lot of trouble, and perhaps tortured, executed and their organs placed on the open market.  You're obviously a shill for Chinese imperialism, and there's no point in asking if you have no shame, because you don't.Skookum1 17:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amen! And the disgrace is that the 'Editors' haven't the guts to lay the fact of propaganda in this article out in the open. The PRC Regime is extremely active on the internet in spreading its lies and deceit. Fake websites, fake Tibetan Leaders (paid), fake 'News Services'. Thanks for standing up and being counted.--Iamlondon 03:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No doubt your views are biased since your only source of information about Tibet are from "Tibetans-in-exile". At the very least, if you feel that strongly about the issue, you should travel to Tibet and learn about the truth THERE.--Lssah 88 18:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been to Tibet - people are, as in the rest of Chinese controlled territory, terrified of being caught by the secret police speaking about anything the government frowns upon. I saw a man get dragged off the street by the army simply for speaking to a journalist. Ask Amnesty International what they think of the PRC Regime. --Iamlondon 21:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suppose Amnesty International was also around to document how Tibetan serfs were brutally treated by their slave masters prior to Chinese rule, hmmm? Required Reading --Lssah 88 20:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

text: What do you mean by "handing over its historical enormous empire to China"? Do they also teach you about the Opium Wars in British schools? Guess not...--Lssah 88 20:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: It is possbile 

message: After reading through this section, I can't help but notice the latter part of it are either full of self-contradictory statements or purely plain PRC bashing. It speaks of the need to improve educational/healthcare access to Tibetans & the ability to compete in the economy, yet rails against the logistical basis on which it must be achieved. How could access to better education come about when people have no ability to migrate and settle in Tibet? How can Tibetans be competitive if they are perpetually kept in the nomadic lifestyles of feudal times? How can Tibetans benefit economically when they remain isolated and have no knowledge of or exposure to people beyond the next hill or mountain? How can the economy improve without the logistical infrastructure to channel in technology, capital, entrepreneurs, and skilled labor? It may be true that Tibetans are by and large unable to compete economically in the status quo. However, by NOT embarking on projects like the railway, they will only remain impoverished, and the socio-economic gap between Tibetans & Hans will be even greater. Have the exiles ever considered these matters? 
Also their complaint about the government's efforts to rebuilding their monasteries is nonsensical. Maybe the CCP SHOULD NOT restore those destroyed monasteries, since Tibetans don't like it anyways and the saved expenses could surely be used to buy more guns and bullets for the PLA instead. Maybe they should also stop building schools, hospitals, sewers, water works, transportation, electricity, communications, and anything else that could be used to remind the Tibetans of 'Chinese taint' that once existed there while we are at it. --Lssah 88 15:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It all comes down to Self-determination, which neither Tibetans in exile, nor those in historical Tibet have. Fred Bauder 21:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean non-violence as Dalai Lama suggested to his people isn't a Self-determination?? I thought it took courage to do the non-violent things and not just revert back to fighting... Monkey Brain 14:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Evaluation by the Tibetan exile community