Talk:Scooter Libby/Archive 7

message: [....]
:Point of information:The matter of citing Kampeas' article documenting Libby's being Jewish is first raised by other users (some unsigned/undated, some signed/dated) in archive 1 of this talk page (circa Oct. 2005): Talk:Lewis Libby/Archive 1#Religion.  Please check the subsequent archived pages for further discussion by various Wikipedia users of this fact and their and my documented evidence of reliable sources--WP:Reliable sources; Wikipedia:Citing sources; Wikipedia:Attribution--citing that fact and the relevance of those sources' documentation and discussion of the fact to this public figure's biography and to publicly-debated issues by reliable sources pertaining to aspects of his public service as a government official relating to such important other Wikipedia subjects as the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Plame affair, the CIA leak grand jury investigation, and its resulting United States v. Libby.  Thank you. --NYScholar 19:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Resolving disputes [continued]

message: The following second paragraph is factually incorrect and citations need to be updated. 
"Libby is the first sitting White House official to be indicted in 130 years[8] and "the highest-ranking White House official convicted in a government scandal since National Security Adviser John Poindexter in the Iran-Contra affair" in 1990.[9]"
In fact many sitting White house officials have been indicted in the last 130 years - Source - http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-10-26-white-house_x.htm
:I concur, Henry Cisneros was secretary of Housing and Urban Development . Cabinet members are higher up in the White House than any chief of staff. CNN is wrong.A.S. Williams 19:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Incorrect Information

message: *Bromell, Nick.  "Scooter Libby and Me".  The American Scholar (Phi Beta Kappa) (Winter 2007).  Accessed 25 Apr. 2007.  Online reposting. Alternet  16 Jan. 2007.  Accessed 25 Apr. 2007.
Nick Bromell, Professor of English and Director of Graduate Studies at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts, is an "old friend of Scooter Libby's" from boarding school, "deeply opposed to the Bush administration, which [he] regards as dishonest and dangerous," who "believes that Scooter and his neoconservative colleagues have not only set the nation on a disasterous course, they have also destroyed my father's lifelong effort to make U.S. policy in the Middle East more responsive to the realities on the ground": "I went away to boarding schools in the early 1960s, and at one of these [Eaglebrook] my best friend was a boy named Scooter -- Lewis 'Scooter' Libby -- who grew up to become Paul Wolfowitz's protégé, Dick Cheney's chief of staff, and one of the Bush administration's strongest advocates for the war in Iraq...."
*–––.   "Scooter's Tragic Innocence: Why My Friend Scooter Libby Is Loyal to Bush, Cheney and an Arrogant Administration Whose Values Are Not His Own". Salon 24 Jan. 2007.  Accessed 25 Apr. 2007.  (Premium content; restricted access.)  Online reposting.  Democratic Underground Discussion Forum 24 Jan. 2007.  Accessed 25 Apr. 2007.
Another profile by Nick Bromell, "someone who's an old friend of Scooter Libby's and at the same time a frustrated critic of the Bush administration," who has "known Scooter since we were both 11-year-old 'new boys' at a boarding school [Eaglebrook] in New England....Later we were roommates, co-captains of the debating team, and later still we both went to Andover.  We had the same teachers, read the same books, and played hundreds of hours of touch football together.  We were close friends, drawn to each other not just by shared interests but by a shared position on the cruel status ladder of these elite prep schools.  In a world dominated by rich WASP jocks, we were both too small to play varsity sports.  Scooter was a Jew.  I was a scholarship boy whose family never owned a car. ... [added passage found in open-access version later.] As Scooter's friend, I was always puzzled by how he managed to reconcile his exceptional intelligence with an unquestioning allegiance to these schools' absurd values and hypocritical institutions. Perhaps as a Jewish boy, Scooter simply felt more pressure than I did to submit to the system in which we were placed." [updated. --NYScholar 11:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is interesting, I think, to listen to, as Bromell elaborates some of his points in the article published in TAS.  Re: Libby's full given name: Asked by Charles Goyette what the "I." in I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby stands for, first Bromell says "Irv[e]" and then "Irving," so that is still in limbo; given his answer, it would seem that "Irve" or "Irv" is the nickname for the fuller given name "Irving," however; when asked if Libby's last name was always "Libby," Bromell says that that is the only last name that he knew him by (since they were 11 years old).  As Bromell is an English professor as well as an old friend of Libby's, they also discuss Libby's novel The Apprentice, with some biographical focus.  --NYScholar 00:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

text: This detailed "Profile" could be added to "Related external links" in the main article: I list it for consideration, along with the previous sources on this current talk page and already listed in Talk:Lewis Libby/Archive 6. --NYScholar 01:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional biographical sources pertaining to Lewis Libby

message: This sentence is repeated twice in the introduction and one copy should be removed. "Libby's lawyers announced that he would seek a new trial, and, if that attempt fails, they will appeal Libby's conviction."Rob944s2 18:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling, grammar, typos, from a NPOV

message: am requesting unprotection of this article. it was protected for "edit-warring" more than a month ago (April 19). Doldrums 13:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I advise that you not do that until the arbitration of the user in question is completed.--RWilliamKing 13:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  requesting unprotection 

message: [Please post new comments at the end of comments; see talk page guidelines.  Thanks. --21:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I returned to move the comment to the end of this page (as it was posted after my recent revisions) and because the user apparently did not realize that I had already added a citation to the brief mentioned prior to his/her posting this comment (above much earlier comments in an earlier section); please re-read the section on Lewis Libby#Libby ordered to jail pending appeal; it's there [note 60].  A direct citation of the brief is a better source than the NY Sun's article given, although that could be added if needed. I don't think it is needed.  The signatures of both Dershowitz and Bork are already in the brief.  (Judge Walton has been quoted in later news reports (in television news programs reporting on his ordering Libby to jail within 10 days) as saying that he was not persuaded by the brief and did not think that it was presented well.  I don't have time to hunt a printed source for that; but the fact that he rejected their arguments makes his position on their brief clear.) --NYScholar 21:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: [The pertinent note is currently numbered note 60 in the article; the brief was filed in relation to the order after the sentencing (sec=Lewis Libby#Libby ordered to jail pending appeal); the article already states that renewed calls for a presidential pardon occurred in during [and after] the sentencing phase; chronologically, mention of the brief is in the proper section; it does not belong in the "calls for pardon" section as much as in post-sentencing one, re: the jail order.  [According to many news reports, the brief was filed in response to that particular order by Walton.]  (Lots of the calls for leniency etc. also refer to pardon.  That should be clear if one reads Libby's supporters' letters and the amici curiae brief already linked.) --NYScholar 21:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

text: [Updated further: Although I questioned whether it is needed above, I have added the source mentioned by the user above (illusionvi), with expl. in editing history. --NYScholar 22:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved from "Quote request" above

message: Re: Lewis Libby#Law Career:
The name of his Philadelphia (first) law firm--Schnader, Harrison, Segal & Lewis--documented during "Senate Armed Services Committeee nomination hearings" according to original research into those transcripts provided in  "I. Lewis Libby in Philly and Beyond" by "Above average jane" (personal blog) on 13 October 2005.  To avoid depending on such "original research"--WP:NOR--and use of a potentially-unreliable source (personal blog post) as only source, one would have to search the Armed Services Committee nomination hearings transcripts (which she says took her "a week and a half").
:I noticed that for other parts of her article that blogger cites material that also appears in Mark Leibovich's 2002 WaPo Libby profile; e.g., "Above average jane" cites article by Daniela Deane, who writes: "The same year, in an interview with CNN's Larry King, Libby spoke of a childhoood comparison to New York Yankees Hall of Fame shortstop Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto":
*Daniela Deane, "Cheney's Right Hand Man Never Sought Limelight", The Washington Post, 28 October, 2005, accessed 30 June, 2007.  (See "Note Well" below.)
:Deane also provides another source (in addition to, say, Bromell) for Libby's having attended Eaglebrook School in Deerfield (MA). --NYScholar 16:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Name of Libby's first law firm in Philadelphia

message: I have added pertinent quotations from and citations to reliable and verifiable sources documenting highly-controversial and widely-contested points of view relating to Libby's work in developing U.S. foreign policy pertaining to Israel; please see the text and the citations.  These matters pertain to issues being disputed in current arbitration.  The quotations are documented with sources and feature Wikified links to related articles for further consultation and verification.  These are all good faith edits of the content of this article consistent with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:POV, and WP:BLP#Well known public figures. --NYScholar 00:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: N.B.: I have just noticed that for at least over two months (and concurrently with the arbitration request concerning my editing of this article), there have been continual Wikipedia:Edit wars (and even claims of Wikipedia:Wheel wars) going on in the Wikipedia policy page for WP:BLP (in which Wikipedia administrators have been engaged).  My own references to WP:BLP and (as sec. is currently called)  WP:BLP#Well known public figures (which used to be a sec. simply called "Public figures" when I had linked to it in my earlier comments about Lewis Libby--and the associated controversy relating to Libby in the article concerning Temple Rodef Shalom) pre-date changes to WP:BLP made after I posted those comments.  For more information, I suggest that users of this talk page consult the editing history of WP:BLP and the arbitration request matter (linked earlier; scroll up).  For the record, once again: Lewis Libby is what WP:BLP in the past termed a "public figure" and is still what WP:BLP currently terms a "well-known public figure" in WP:BLP#Well known public figures.  Those policies pertain to editing the content of this article about him.  All Wikipedia articles about living persons (whether not well-known private figures or whether well-known public figures) require "reliable and verifiable sources," as per "core" Wikipedia "official policies" Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and WP:Attribution and guidelines in Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Cite, with "full citations" as defined therein.  (Links to such Wikipedia policies and guidelines are accessible via the tagged notices at the top of this talk page.)   Thank you. --NYScholar 08:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional documentation

message: :[followed by a means of shortening this article on Libby.]
I propose adding to the end of the current section called Lewis Libby#Resignation from government either a precis of the following block quotation or the full block quotation--introduced by a proper transition identifying its source as Ron Kampeas (a reliable and verifiable source)--and the appropriate citation (already in archived talk pages and this talk page): For example:
After Libby resigned, Ron Kampeas reports,
Across the blogosphere, anti-Semitic and Anti-Israel conspiracy theories were quick to tie Libby’s Jewishness to his role in selling the Iraq war, imagining once again a neo-con cabal that has a singular agenda: promoting Israel at all costs.
"One more Jewish Neocon Traitor," headlined the White Civil Rights Web site, which features the writings of David Duke.
Yet the fact that many people in Washington — including neo-conservatives — had no idea that Libby was Jewish [until Kampeas discussed "Libby's Jewishness" in his JTA press releases, the subject of his current article] underscores how tenuous the Jewish-neo-con link actually is, said Muravchik, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and Jewish himself.
"One key measure of the falsity of the argument is that the non-Jewish neo-cons are equally pro-Israel as Jewish neo-cons," he said.*
:::[Source (for discussion, please see this article's talk page archives and the current arbitration request):
:::*Kampeas, Ron. "Libby Jewish? Some Wonder How Neo-con's Faith Impacts Leak Scandal". Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) ("The Global News Service of the Jewish People"), 2 November, 2005. Accessed 2 July, 2007. Rpt. in Ron Kampeas, "Did Libby's Jewishness Impact the CIA Leak Scandal?". Jerusalem Post (JTA), 6 November, 2005. Updated 7 November, 2005. Accessed 2 July, 2007. [Multiple other reprintings.]
Given the development currently in the previous section on Libby's government employment, Lewis Libby#Government public service and political career, I think that the passage above is useful and "encyclopedic" development.  I think that it is better for this encyclopedia article to take account of these issues discussed in such reliable and verifiable sources pertaining to Libby than to hide from (censor) them.  The hyperlinks to pertinent Wikipedia articles provide current Wikipedia information re: the phrases in the quotation.   Please consider this proposal vis-a-vis all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, most particularly: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view; WP:BLP, specifically WP:BLP#Well known Public figures; WP:POV; and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. --NYScholar [18:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in favor of including the block quote. Notmyrealname 16:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Responses in the [[mass media]] to Libby's resignation: Proposed content

message: To shorten this article (currently 90K) and to avoid redundancy with other articles already well developed in Wikipedia, I suggest that after that section on his resignation, one simply have cross-references to the related articles pertaining to the Plame affair, United States v. Libby, and Valerie Plame#The Wilsons' civil suit and not repeat the information (not "reinvent the wheel"); these sections are: Lewis Libby#Libby's involvement in the Plame affair; Lewis Libby#Indictment, trial, conviction, and sentencing; and Lewis Libby#The Wilsons' civil suit (inclusive of any and all subsections in them). (In the course of such shortening of this article's redundant sections, if it appears that useful content in this article pertaining to the others needs to be moved to them, one can incorporate it in those already-existing articles expeditiously.)  All one needs to leave are the cross-reference templates to the other main articles and pertinent Wikisource and Wikiquote etc. templates.
Both in general due to the ongoing arbitration request and particularly out of courtesy to the other parties involved in it, I myself will not currently make these particular changes, but I do want to say that I think that doing so will improve this article. (See WP:Be bold for related guidelines.)  This "biography" of Lewis Libby does not need to re-hash the details already covered in the other articles.  With all that material excised, it will be much more concise and focused on the biography (notable aspects of the life) of Lewis Libby.   Even though I have spent a lot of my own time attempting to improve the content of those sections containing content often originally provided by others, I still would favor this method of shortening this article.  Doing so will make it more consistent with other biographical articles about such notable and well-known public figures (former and current public officials) in Wikipedia.  (There are other articles that I've worked on in which similar changes of form/content could be just as useful methods of shortening them; e.g., Paul Wolfowitz, but I can't take the time to propose such changes to them now.  Perhaps others will do so.)  Thanks very much for considering these proposals.  --NYScholar 18:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Shortening this article on Libby: Proposed content