Talk:Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater/Archive 2

message: I see on the article's history page that there's a minor issue about using the game's Japanese name.
Not only did the name look like a mess as it was (based on this and other edits by セフィロス, I hope he learns about the nihongo template real soon), I don't think the romaji was even correct.
I'm not sure if the Japanese name should be used, because despite the fact that this is a Japanese game, all versions of it just use the English name, and not any katakana or whatever (not even above or underneath the English name on its promotional material/title screen/and so on, as a lot of Japanese games with English titles do). How does everyone else feel about it? - DoubleCross 19:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I decided to stop re-adding the Japanese name until there was a solid source for it. Are you saying the Japanese actually call it "Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater"? -- Steel 19:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It wouldn't be pronounced the exactly the same as in English (which might be worth noting), but the game titles for each game, in every resource I've seen, including the Japanese packaging and official site, are always written in proper English with Roman letters (except the MGS comic for PSP, which is English and French, but still all proper Roman letters/spelling). In magazines, it may or may not be refered to in kana, but the official game title, in Japan, is spelled Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater. --Le Scoopertemp [tk] 03:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese name 

message: I'm gonna point out right now there's going to be a lot of unpopular changes. Lots of stuff is going to have to be removed from the article. Check out other videogame featured articles like FFX and SotC to see the kind of standard we're aiming for. -- Steel 14:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I see it, the sections that need to go are: "Snake vs Monkey", "Guy Savage", "Voice Actors" and "Trivia". The philophers/legacy sections will need to be cut down and added to the story section where it's relevant. Comments and suggestions welcome. -- Steel 14:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Same here.  A lot of these sections need to be taken out, or slashed significantly and be reinerted into other sections.  As it stands now, these sections aren't important enough to have their own sections in the article. --Onlynameicanget 16:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I've removed the sections. It's easy enough to retrieve if we ever need the information though. -- Steel 16:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notice: This is going to become a [[WP:FA|featured article]] 

message: I've added a merge tag for MG Saga Vol. 1, as the upshot of a previous discussion was to merge that here if Subsistence was merged here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I just merged it. It was an easy merge and I was working on that section anyway. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Metal Gear Saga Vol. 1]]

message: The AFD for the Philosphers page was a unanimous merge, although without any consensus on where. I suggest merging it here; per WP:FICT, it's an organization appearing only in this game, and anything you'd say about it would be plot summary of this game. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do the Philosophers have their own (sub)section anyway? Why not just add what's relevant to the story into the story? -- Steel 16:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Same goes for their legacy. -- Steel 16:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea why they have their own section. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: How do you know this? And were you planning to add any info that isn't plot summary? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

text: It's not, actually. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Check WP:RS. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Philosophers (Metal Gear)]]

message: Recently, I've been working on getting Solid Snake up to at least GA status. The references used there may be useful for this article.
If someone wants to cite MG Saga, here's a ref tag:
:
If anyone finds anything else that might be useful, links or other info would be appreciated. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Me and Onlynameicanget are using my sandbox as a place for keeping useful links. I did the same for SotC and it proved useful. -- Steel 18:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useful references 

message: has repeatedly reinserted this wording, which is unencyclopedic for a variety of reasons.
#Wikipedia isn't a price guide. Why list the price for this and not the Japanese LE for the main game, or the price of the games themselves in each territory?
#The reference is going to rot. eBay pulls completed auction listings after about a month.
#The info itself is going to rot, as interest waxes and wanes.
#eBay prices aren't consistent. They waver, based on condition, the conditions of the sale, the seller, the buyer, and a number of other factors.
#The estimation of prices is original research. I'm looking at that list myself, and there's a lot of deviation around the "about $100", depending on the seller and the buyers.
If someone has reported that the LE is particularly in demand, fine, but an eBay search isn't a source. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Price on the Subsistence LE 

message: Let's be realistic. The two images in the story section are pretty low quality, don't contribute significantly and would be shot down in 3 seconds during an FAC. We do, however, need images to illustrate at least one of the new features in the game (CQC and camouflage). After a quick look around the internets, I propose we use either this image to illustrate camouflage or this image to illustrate CQC. Comments? -- Steel 14:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Trappings, as in the intro, means "the details associated with an attribute or quality." MGS3 lacks the high-tech gadgets, setting details, and other high-tech-ness of the previous games. I used that word instead of "setting" because not only the setting but also the story and in-game objects, are different as a result. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd just never heard that word used before, is all. -- Steel 20:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trappings 

message: This needs to be rewritten to place more emphasis on the heavily-promoted CQC system, instead of the merely-incidental weapons. Additionally, I don't see the greater emphasis on weapons; the only major change is the addition of a shotgun and the pistol-and-knife combos (which is a part of CQC anyway). - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gameplay para 

message: Here's an excerpt from a Voltage PR press release on behalf of Konami of Europe, confirming launch month and the title's contents. I'll try to find the damn thing on a referencable source, I can't link to my press resource site naturally.
Subsistence on menu for October release
Konami announces three-disc set as Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence gets definite European release date
July 14th 2006
Konami Digital Entertainment GmbH is to bring Hideo Kojima’s famed Metal Gear Solid hero Snake to PlayStation 2 for one last, epic outing, with the advent of the three-disc Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence this October.
Designed as the ultimate Metal Gear experience for the format, the three-disc set features an advanced version of the classic Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater; a second disc boasting a wealth of new game modes, including a full online version of the game, plus perfect recreations of the two MSX Metal Gear titles that started it all; and a three-and-a-half hour movie recut from the game’s cinematics on the third disc.
So Europe gets the limited edition as standard to make up for having to wait nearly a year. Yay!
Hyperspacey 21:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  See the date has been changed to September '06 in the main article instead of October. Does the IGN review know something we don't? IIRC it predates the Voltage PR announcement by four months. Hyperspacey 12:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't really matter whether IGN has it right. All that counts is that's what IGN says. See verifiability, not truth. -- Steel 13:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: One would assume, however, that a Eurogamer article (reference 28, http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=66060 ) which confirms the title for an October release would take precidence, given it is substantially more current? I would post a link to the press release on the Voltage site (they're KCEE GMbH's official PR company, after all) if I had one.Hyperspacey 22:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right about the Eurogamer thing. I've changed it back. -- Steel 22:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Euro release details 

message: Sorry if this seems like a mad idea, but should the plot section even be that long? No-one who has played the game will want to read it, no-one who wants to play the game would dare read it, and there are certainly enough other places to look for a complete story walkthrough. Would a nice, concise, two-para synopsis be a better idea?
Seems the MGS2 article is similarly burdened with the entire game storyline, labeled as a synopsis.
Hyperspacey 03:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it shouldn't be that long. Reducing it drastically is on the to-do list; it's just an intimidating task. If you want to take a crack at it, it would be appreciated. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got a hatchet with it's name on. Next up after that, MGS1, MGS2 and The Godfather. Whoever wrote that plot summary is going to absolutely kill me.Hyperspacey 03:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The idea I had in mind was to reduce the length of the entire story section (which includes "Philosophers" and "Philosophers Legacy") into the space currently taken up by the Operation Snake Eater section. In other words, 5-6 paragraphs. I think we need to provide more than just a brief synopsis, but it's current length is just overkill. -- Steel 12:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It needs a bit of editing, but I think my new version is a bit more like it. Needs work mind. Hyperspacey 01:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree this version still needs work, but it's infinitely better than the old one. -- Steel 11:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I will... later (unless someone does it before me. Either way is fine). -- Steel 17:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Just at a glance, I think the story has now gotten too short. -- Steel 10:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Plot 

message: I'm pretty shocked when I was browsing through this article and there was hardly any info regarding of the Ape Escape mini-game (Snake vs. Monkey) in Snake Eater article. In fact, it is just very vague information just like you guys assume everybody in the whole world already knows what is the terminology, "Snake vs. Monkey? (see: Localization and Additional Features) No mention that it is a tribute to the Ape Escape game series and what it is. I'm not saying to write a whole paragraph or section devoted to it because it is just a mini-game/tutorial. However, it is like part of the game and has very vague info in this article who are not familiar with the game. --Oskar Mayer Nguyener 17:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Adding a section on the minigames is on the to-do list. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is? -- Steel 10:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was. It probably should be again. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this is a wiki. If anyone wants it there's nothing to stop them adding it. -- Steel 10:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Heh, thanks for adding the Snakes vs. Monkey info. The reason why I didn't bother to edit is that I don't want to ruin your guy's hard work because I'm too chicken to "be bold." I'm just a casual fan of the Metal Gear series, have limited knowledge, and didn't know where the info should be placed. Anyways, good luck with the Featured article nomination. It probably will pass. --Oskar Mayer Nguyener 02:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A very vague mention of the Ape Escape mini-game?

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Metal_Gear_Solid_3:_Snake_Eater&curid=613343&diff=73650441&oldid=73640739
Too busy to get it now, but some of these are listed on the back of the Subsistence case. It has to be possible to cite them. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have Subsistence, myself (partly due to it not actually being out here), so I can't really do much here. -- Steel 10:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, scratch that last bit there, found the cover on the web. I'll look around for guidelines on how to cite game covers and ask the CVG if I can't find anything. -- Steel 11:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Subsistence features

message: I was working on List of Metal Gear Solid 3 characters, and I was finding that after removing the detailed plot summary and paraphrased backstory, that that list could probably be converted to prose and merged into this article. Any thoughts? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would have to be cut down quite a bit. </stating the obvious> -- Steel 20:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. I don't think we need a full sentence on most of these, though, like the Cobra Unit members and the DOD official and Johnson/Kruschev. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The likes of Johnson and Kruhschev (sp?) don't really need mentioning. At the moment the characters section is two short paragraphs, I personally wouldn't expand the section to more than three long paragraphs. I would, however, give each of the Cobras a mention, even if it's as part of a list with a brief 3-word description or something (Like "a legendary sniper"). -- Steel 21:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll fiddle. I imagine J2x4 and Bread will also want to weigh in, as well. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text: And? Lots of work needs to be done on those articles, and WP:FICT rightly counsels to keep all the content in one place if possible. I have no intention of merging if I can't make it work. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: So postpone this discussion until I merge the content from the list here, retaining the original article and the  link? You don't think I can do it, I'm pretty sure I can, but we're both dealing in hypotheticals. I'll go ahead and copy the content here, and if that passes muster, we'll finish the merge. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I plan to boldly improve this article using content from the list of characters. After I do so, we can more usefully discuss whether the character list has been rendered redundant. I propose we wait until I've done that rather than arguing about vague hypothetical cases. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, it hasn't made the characters section in this article too long, which was probably the main concern above. In honesty, I'm quite happy with this. Redirect? Possibly, let's see what everyone else thinks and make sure we're on top of the broken links issue before we do. -- Steel 23:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You know, at the moment I'm erring the side of don't redirect. Although the characters article needs to be cut down quite a bit, some info which is definitely relevant (voice actors, character design/development info (how The End was originally going to be in MGS2, for example), brief plot summary, etc) is best kept there. -- Steel 00:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we can always cover voice actors here, and the MGS2 article already covers The End. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Any reason other than the voice actors making it too clunky? I was just about to add them. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[List of Metal Gear Solid 3 characters]] merge 

message: Here you go.
First things first, did I skip any major characters? Is there some major detail I overlooked? I added a full list of Cobra unit, and mentioned both Raikov and Johnny. (I don't think the DOD official needs further mention.)
Once the prose is cleaned up if necessary, we can discuss whether the list should be redirected in earnest. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it hasn't made the characters section in this article too long, which was probably the main concern above. In honesty, I'm quite happy with this. Redirect? Possibly, let's see what everyone else thinks and make sure we're on top of the broken links issue before we do. -- Steel 23:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

text: You know, at the moment I'm erring the side of don't redirect. Although the characters article needs to be cut down quite a bit, some info which is definitely relevant (voice actors, character design/development info (how The End was originally going to be in MGS2, for example), brief plot summary, etc) is best kept there. -- Steel 00:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we can always cover voice actors here, and the MGS2 article already covers The End. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Any reason other than the voice actors making it too clunky? I was just about to add them. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Done with the hypotheticals

message: Hi. I was browsing through this article, when I noticed someone wrote GARRET IS A BASTARD in one of the articles. I deleted it, but accidentally deleted other info as well! Please forgive me. I belive it was in the multiplayer section. ~Chaos shadow
:All has been dealt with, don't worry. -- Steel 09:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you.. -- chaos_shadow 09:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spam deletion accident

message: It needs re-writing as it is a rough draft, a good picture is possibly needed. Cardboard boxA 12:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reverted. I seem to remember us agreeing that is doesn't deserve an entire section to itself, and that current version was basically just a list of things that you unlock by playing it. -- Steel 15:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

text: To expand on that, if we have to include info on it (and quite a few people seem to want that), I'd give it a short paragraph at the end of the Gameplay section. -- Steel 15:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The current paragraph mentions that "Snake" appears in the minigame - if I remember correctly, it's Solid Snake and not Big Boss/Naked Snake featured (he talks to Col. Campbell and not Major Zero, anyway). That doesn't really need to be elaborated upon, and would just require a link to the Solid Snake article - but it would need a reference if we're going to add it. Also, do you think we should briefly mention the Snake's Nightmare minigame? --Nick RTalk 01:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Did any references make mention of Guy Savage (the proper name of the minigame, I believe)? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think someone somewhere talked about it, though personally I don't think it's worth mentioning. -- Steel 01:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Added Snake VS Monkey

message: The article needs a bit of a copyedit first, though recently it has been given a little bit. I'll attempt to do more myself (attempt because it'll be hard to copyedit stuff I originally wrote) and then I think we can send it though FAC. It's been lying here at near-FA standard for ages. -- Steel 22:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been copyediting sort of haphazardly, but we still need to figure out where to mention Snake vs. Monkey. Right now, it's conspicuous in its omission, and it's mentioned in the Subsistence section but only in that it has been added to in Subsistence. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No-one's objected to my suggestion above (a few lines at the end of the gameplay section) so I assume nobody will mind if I do that. -- Steel 22:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh. I didn't see that. Yeah, that's a good plan. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Edge's comment is sourced by the ref in the next sentence, but I've added one anyway just to clear up confusion. I'm not sure we need to go to town with external links, and a see also section would be a bit redundant with the  at the bottom. Thanks for looking over that, NCurse. -- Steel 14:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure that this article will have no problem in FAC. You can nominate it anytime. Good luck! NCurse  work 15:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  FAC? 

message: The Platinum reissue of MGS3 was not released solely in Germany, as the article currently implies. It was also released in Spain  and France , and might have been released in other European countries too (that's what Ryan Payton said would happen, at least ).
I think I'm the one who originally put in the article that it was being released across Europe (due to Payton's interview, and Saga's being rated by the BBFC). Obviously whoever changed it to just "Germany" only ever saw Konami's German page about it.
I can't think of a way to phrase it in an edit ("across Europe"? "several European countries"? etc. etc. etc.). Anybody else have ideas? - DoubleCross 08:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I seem to remember looking for something that suggested it was beaing released Europe-wide and only found evidence for a German release. That Ryan Payton interview is really old, which is a pain. I'm gonna look around a bit. -- Steel 11:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Platinum" release info 

message: Okay, perhaps not the best place for this, but MGS3:S hits Europe this coming Friday (6-10-06), and my prefered independant retailer has confirmed he's recieving shipments of the title by Thursday. I'm updating the article, but until it's on sale, I'm not sure where to find a verifiable (non-retail) citation for the date. Hyperspacey 21:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed that until we've got a source for it. At the moment, I've found sources which say "this week", but nothing that specifically mentions Friday. Something will arise sooner or later though. -- Steel 10:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Subsistence Euro release 

message: Congratulations on getting the article featured. Excellent work. However, the prose issues remain, and it would be great if they could still be taken care of. Featured articles are meant to display Wikipedia's absolute peak of quality on all fronts, after all. JimmyBlackwing 23:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Deckiller agreed to give the article a good copyedit, but hasn't turned up yet. He might need a nudge. Or you could just sort them out yourself - I wrote huge chunks of this article from scratch so it's hard for me to copyedit it (or maybe I'm the source of the prose issues...). -- Steel 23:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've done nothing, I could do it if you want
†he Bread 03:21, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want to, go right ahead. I'm too busy with other articles to give this a copyedit myself, unfortunately. Otherwise, I'd have already given it a once-over. JimmyBlackwing 12:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Congratulations 

message: Would you rather that we include VGCharts and make the article bad, or remove it and keep it good?
I vote the latter, no matter how tempting the former may be. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vote on the article 

message: Added a link to Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater Original Soundtrack page similar to the one on the Metal Gear Solid page.
(FF7SquallStrife7 03:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Audio 

message: So why not use  for two columns? -th1rt3en 00:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2 column references 

message: The article for them mentions that they were features in the game somehow.  Where was this?  Havermayer 19:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The ground effect vehicle at the lake near the end of the game. -- Steel 21:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ekranoplan]]?