Talk:Seung-Hui Cho/Archive 5

message: Hasn't been posted that he acquired two ammo clips from Ebay. The handle was Blazers5505 on ebay.com and the store was "Oneclickshooting." Beyond me if this is even worth mentioning or if there's a relavence to anything else. Just pointing it out. Neutralitybias 03:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ebay/Hotmail 

message: Actually the fleabay story has been posted, at least twice. Most recently, it was said that this story appeared on Fox "News".
I'd leave to the police and criminologists the matter of "its relevance to anything else". But then perhaps I'm unusual in not understanding how going nuts and offing people renders the killer worthy of detailed examination other than by the police and criminologists. 
Oh well, this is one way for a nobody to get a kind of fame, I suppose: kill people. At least the killer will get a careful write-up on Wikipedia! -- Hoary 06:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thrilling details 

message: Just to clarify matters, can we please straighten out the classification of bio entries as in Category:American criminals -- specifically what I mean is that in this case Cho can indeed be considered a criminal, as per the guidelines, because he was not convicted due to him dying during the commission of his crime. That's my reading of the rules. Pablosecca 09:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That probably needs to be dealt with at Category talk - I don't think we should be making decisions for the whole category based on this one article. There may even be a recent discussion about this at the category. Natalie 17:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  of course the other problem is that is a catagory of criminal by nationality and it's debateable that he's an american Harlock jds 17:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be another good question for the category talk page. Natalie 21:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  i think it's pretty clear that the catagory refers to nationality (note at the top of the cat page it goes Classification: People: By occupation: Criminals: By nationality: American) so he does not meet the criteria (and it's even more cut and dry than the whole Asian amercian debate) because he was clearly not an American National. I'm not inclined to remove the cat (since it would just be a revert war that i don't feel like keeping up with) but it should be droped. Harlock jds 23:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Category: American Criminals 

message: I heard a news interview on NPR late night via BBC in which the commentator had dealt extensively with children who had been molested.  She said she felt unequivocally that he had been molested as a child based on the nature of his writing and communication.  Note that he cited notorious teachers John Mark Karr and Debra Lafave, both themselves child molesters and teachers. 
Cho said his reasoning was, "For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you fuck, I did it for them…"  Could this be a reference to victims of child molestation ("my brothers and sisters that you fuck")? This line of questioning should be at least referenced in the article as it is getting mentioned in the press and it deserves inclusion.
:I hope that the abuse angle can be investigated:  It appears that Cho's development was severely arrested at around puberty where he goes from a "boy of knowledge" who "was popular with the girls" in elementary school in Centerville to a withdrawn and resentful youth in high school.  Likely his manifesto rantings about abuse have some autobiographical substance, and that the abuse resulted in his social development stopping abruptly.  Note that the elementary school description conflits with the description by his aunt of Cho prior to immigrating to the US.  uriel8  (talk) 17:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would this need to be mentioned in the article when there is no reliable source claiming that he was or was not molested? Secondgen 19:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was he molested as a child? Reference to news account, include question in article. 

message: I believe that my previous comments/requests about this are being overlooked due the length of this Talk page, so I am starting a new topic in order to call attention to a false statement; which, hopefully, someone w/EDIT access will correct.
The quote from ABC News about Cho's medication for Depression erroneously states that, "no record of [Cho's] medication for depression existed in FEDERAL PRESCRIPTION DATABASES."  
Please refer to my comment(s) on this subject earlier in the Talk Page (go to other heading), but suffice it to say that no such Databases exist, save for the very few number of states which have STATE Prescription Databases/Tracking Systems, of which Virginia is *not* one.
Since this is Reference/Source material, Wiki should not tolerate perpetuating a false statement and this needs to removed ASAP.  I do not have the ability to Edit, so I am asking some kind soul to Please do this for me.  Thank you SO much!  172.146.142.247 19:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is true.  Even if federal prescription databases existed (which they don't, unless they exist in the same way as the NSA wiretapping thing, which also "doesn't exist"), they would not be open to the likes of ABC News or anyone else without a court order and an extremely good lawyer.--Dynaflow 19:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: By the way, where are your previous comments on this? There's so much spam here, I can't find it. Secondgen 19:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Googling "federal prescription database" seems to indicate there is such a thing.  I don't think we should be deciding whether or not such a database exists without appropriate sources. Phony Saint 20:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed mention of the federal prescription database from the article, but left the statement to the effect there "there were no records."  That seems to be a decent compromise that doesn't take anything of substance away from the story.  However, given the way this article has been going, someone will probably restore the mention within half an hour or so.--Dynaflow 20:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perpetuating a LIE .... can someone please remove this false statement? 

message: Have they published the written pages from the multimedia manisfesto? Where can I get my hands on something more than just the still shots.
:Though it has nothing to do with the article, here's my theory. NBC won't release them until they finish making some kind of documentary so that they can profit from it.  Secondgen 20:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: More likely, they won't be released until the investigation is complete - I think NBC turned everything over to the feds. Natalie 21:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Questoin 

message: His E-mail : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
His Shool E-Mail : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
eBay Account : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Source
Pgdn963 21:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not useful to the article, and it is personal information (even if it is personal information of a dead guy) that should not be shared on Wikipedia.  Please justify having it here or erase it, please.  --Dynaflow 22:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cho's details have been leaked to the media. Cho is also dead, so the details are no longer personal. WhisperToMe 22:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but his family may still need to deal with his electronic life, and we don't need to make their lives any harder than they already are by directing trolls to those accounts. The media can be as irresponsible as they want, but we don't need to follow suit. Natalie 22:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Natalie, Wikipedia is an amoral encyclopedia. We do not place morals anywhere other than the value of knowledge. WhisperToMe 23:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Private or public, moral or amoral (I would disagree with your statement on Wikipedia's morality), his contact information still doesn't add any value to this article. Phony Saint 23:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: The main question is, are they germane to building an encyclopedia?  Does it matter for this article what his e-mail address was?  Will anyone care in ten years, or even ten months -- or even right now?  --Dynaflow 22:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, he purchased the gun using the eBay IDs and e-mail address, so of course we have to include them. Now, you may remove the school e-mail address if you feel it is unimportant. WhisperToMe 23:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:IINFO: "That something is 100% true does not automatically mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia." That he bought from eBay could be relevant, his actual screennames are not. Phony Saint 23:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Phony Saint, I kinda made that point by saying that the school e-mail is not relevant. Phony, if you walked up to Joe Schmoe and said that your name was "John Q. Public" and then bought a massive computer cracking software package that disabled the FBI computer system, the fact that you used that alias to buy the tool used to commit the crime is notable. WhisperToMe 00:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Morality and responsibility are completely different things, and Wikipedia does try to be responsible. This can be evidenced by, for example, removing birthdates from articles on private individuals who happen to be notable. This is also evidenced in the fact that we oversight sensitive information, whether or not we know it is correct, because it would be irresponsible to leave it there. Natalie 00:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sun-Kyung Cho and Seung-Hui Cho no longer qualify as private individuals. And, yes, you are using a moral argument. WhisperToMe 00:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, just a supporting argument to the argument that it's in no way useful. Natalie 00:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: WhisperToMe, since you are contributing to a public web site, I deem you are no longer a private individual either. Why don't you let us know your real name, your home address, and your date and place of birth? 66.171.76.138 13:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: But this isn't a case where he was going by a fake name; most people use pseudonyms for eBay and e-mail. There is nothing unusual or notable about his screennames, not to the point where people have written articles about them. Phony Saint 00:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean nothing unusual or notable about the screen names other than the fact he used them to purchase weapons used in a massacre, right? I believe the screen names will become notable because of the massacre. It's the same concept with Eric Harris and "Rebdoomer" - Eric Harris used that alias while maintaining a "Doom" related website. - Would make the same arguments to not include "Rebdoomer"? WhisperToMe 00:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, Cho didn't use his eBay screenname as an alias. He did, however, use "Question Mark" when talking with others, which is already noted in the article. Phony Saint 01:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He used his eBay screen name as an alias only within eBay in order to purchase a weapon. The seller probably knew his full name, so both the alias and the full name were together used in the weapon purchase. WhisperToMe 01:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So what does his screenname contribute to the article? That he used it? If his street address or phone number comes up, do we list them as well? His specific contact information is irrelevant to this article. Phony Saint 01:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The e-mail address was not included as any gesture for meaningful contact (Hey, one can't talk to dead people). Rather, it is there to show what guise Cho operated under in order to facilitate the purchase of the gun. Any screen name created for any website is an alias. WhisperToMe 01:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone really needs to explain this to the vast majority of people writing this "article".  NON-NOTABLE SHIT EXISTS.  His e-mail address and screen names are completely irrelevant. This article begins to resemble a trash heap more and more every day. Bueller 007 09:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: And... what? I'm not arguing he didn't use the screenname, I'm arguing that it doesn't have a point in this article. Not everything Cho used is relevant. Stating that he used eBay is more than enough information for a reader. Phony Saint 01:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Though it's already more-or-less been said here, my reply to Whisper on my talk page was, "What possible benefit does listing a dead mass murderer's e-mail address on Wikipedia give us?  Is this in case some Wikipedian just needs to look up information that allows him or her to e-mail Seung-Hui Cho beyond the grave?  C'mon, it's useless for the article; totally useless."  This infomation can only clutter the article.  There is no possible benefit to having it in, verbatim.  That Cho would use multiple e-mail accounts is not news (hell, I do that, and most of the more 'net-savvy people here do too), and that Cho bought clips on eBay deserves maybe one clause in one sentence, unless eBay gets sued over this, and that's a matter of speculation for now. --Dynaflow 03:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  His E-Mail & eBay Account 

message: "They're not disruptive," she said. "Those students are withdrawn and isolated, and even though we see that as a problem, because it's not disruptive, often they slip through the cracks."
: Nonsense. If you read the Wikipedia article in full you'll see that he was, in fact, a disruptive character. The analysis of this so-called "expert" doesn't fit the facts.—greenrd 01:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not really helpful so I'll explain further. Essentially, Korean culture views mental illness as "blood disease". That is, one or both parents (usually claimed to be mother, often claim to be the result of non-virginity) carry "soiled blood" that will be passed on to children if not "prevented". This is not really unique as many other cultures share, or had shared the same view. Anyway, seeking treatment would have resulted in his sister unable to marry to another Korean and possible ostracism from the local community. --Revth 09:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert on depression characterizes Cho as an "internalizer"-NPR 

message: No mention in this article of the South Korean film Oldboy and the "Hammer pose"?  Even Washington Post, TIME, NYTimes covered this. Do a Google search. According to Sky News, detectives claim Cho watched the film repeatedly just prior to the massacre. (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261402,00.html).  Even in the Oldboy Wikipedia article, the Virginia Tech massacre is mentioned. I think it deserves a mention here too.  It's a highly sourced point, not OR.  --Naus 02:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  First of all, the mainstream has covered this to only mention that there is no evidence that this is true and has stemmed from internet forums. To say there is a connection is original research. Secondgen 03:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No...that would be speculation based on the similarity in poses. For that part, the public will never know. The media, being their usual selves, were analyzing the similarities to provide reasoning for Cho's pose in the video. lwalt 04:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oldboy? 

message: Here's an article from The Washington Post that discusses the results of Cho's autopsy. According to information from the article, the state examiner's office authorized the release of Cho's body to his family. Here's the citation: Rucker, P. & Spinner, J. (2007, April 23). No Abnormalities Found in Cho's Brain. The Washington Post, p. A09. Retrieved April 23, 2007. lwalt 05:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autopsy results for Seung-hui Cho 

message: Now that the family is known to prefer "Seung-hui Cho," it seems like the news media organizations are changing their minds about the presentation of his name.
We may have to hold another discussion and possibly have the article moved. WhisperToMe 01:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is clearly going to have to be moved to Seung-Hui Cho and it should be done asap.  CNN has now changed as can be seen here and it seems other media outlets have made the switch as well (I'm assuming for the basic reason that this is what the kid called himself).  The Cleveland Plain Dealer has explained it's decision to use "the name on his driver's license, in his school records, and in his writings, which is Seung-Hui Cho."  I think the logic on that is pretty strong.  Also the family uses this name.  Also the article currently contradicts itself, as the Reaction of Cho's family section names his sister as Sun-Kyung Cho.  Let's get some consistency here.  Personally I feel as though the arguments for using Cho Seung-hui have pretty much collapsed.--Bigtimepeace | talk |  contribs 02:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hooray, I was not 3RR blocked in vain!  =)  --Dynaflow 02:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree 100%, and so far I have not seen any valid reasons or consensus for not doing so.  See my comment below for my rationale.  I was trying to be bold and do it myself, but there is page move protection. --Ali 03:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree the current name order (Seung-Hui Cho) is the best version now, it's important IMHO to consider there were valid reasons before the family statement Nil Einne 02:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree.  I voted for Cho Seung-hui because that's what themedia were referring to him as, ergo, that's what people would come to Wikipedia looking for him under.  However, in light of the family's statement, I believe the article should be titled Seung-Hui Cho. Scientz 21:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that we probably should go with the correct "western order" of the name, but with a redirect from the Asian version, possible with a pointer to the article on Asian name order, or a short paragraph explaining the same. A discussion of the events as they unfolded should also make note of the apparent confusion on this issue for the sake of future researchers who may review the article some years or decades from now, and who would want to know what happened. Ema Zee 04:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, a redirect page would be created to take anyone who typed in any version of Cho's name directly to wherever his main article ends up, in the same way "seung hui cho" typed into the seach box will take you directly to this article now.  --Dynaflow 05:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible naming order consensus change 

message: Since I posted a message on the original author's discussion page, which I proceeded to ignore, I will broach the topic here
AFAIC, there's no justifiable reason for this article to have a "naming" section. Wikipedia has a Korean name template for this very purpose.

gives you:
This is a Korean name; the family name is Cho, and, unlike Western family names, comes first when pronouncing full names.
We don't need a whole paragraph talking about possible variations on a name.  It adds nothing to this article.  Delete it.  Bueller 007 16:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As has been mentioned elsewhere in great depth, we are avoiding the "Korean American" label as he does not have citizenship.  He is being called "Korean immigrant to the U.S." Bueller 007 15:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Bueller, you don't have to have citizenship to be considered a Korean American.  Please cite me some authoritative source which constrains identity definitions to citizenship.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.124.162.87 (talk) 21:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm pretty sure it's common to refer to people in journalistic articles by their last name. However, I don't see the need for a naming section. It seems that the people in this section are becoming over paranoid. Xenophobia, just because we were using his name as it is usually in korean? That's overreacting IMO.  Pzychotix 04:04, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: As I recall, Jimbo Wales once said something along the lines of "articles should be written keeping in mind what will be notable or significant 10 years down the road" or something along those lines.  The fact that the press reversed his name for the first three days (a completely honest mistake, as he was not an American citizen and they had no evidence of his preferred style) will be COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT compared to his actions.  This "naming" section is a total waste of space.  Just 100% pure unadulterated CRUFT.  It could be condensed to a single set of parentheses like: "Seung-Hui Cho (whose name was previously widely reported in the preferred Asian order Cho Seung-hui)..."  I strongly advise the deletion of this section.  It cheapens the whole article. Bueller 007 17:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The naming issue is quite minor and I could go either way on whether to keep it or not.  I just made some revisions to (hopefully) make the section read a bit more smoothly, and I think for now maybe we should leave it and see if it's worth it to keep it in the end.  I think though that it's a bit odd to have this section on the naming confusion at the beginning--it should be more of an addendum at the end of the article if we keep it at all.--Bigtimepeace | talk |  contribs 19:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, as I was writing the preceding comment another editor moved the section to the end of the article.  Maybe we can let it sit there for awhile and see what we think of it.  The naming issue has been a bit confusing and presumably some people coming to read the article would appreciate an explanation.--Bigtimepeace | talk |  contribs 19:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Naming" section 

message: I have been removing then as per WP:Flags whats other user opinion on this . I mean 
X place , USA  adds no information, this article is not about the american flag and doesnt need to be included (Gnevin 19:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. --Elliskev 21:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly disagree and I'm the one who's been putting them back.  WP:Flags is an essay, not a guideline; moreover, the flags appear in tens of thousands of places on Wiki.  If you are to delete, delete them everywhere else.  They are standard in tens of thousands infoboxes about personalities as far as I can tell. See my rant on the talk page for WP:Flags. Scientz 15:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was only removing them as long as no one objected . You could of made your objection known a little earlier but ok (Gnevin 15:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry for my tone.  This was the first time someone who removed them pointed me towards the discussion page.  I thought I was already in an edit war. :) Scientz 16:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flags in infobox 

message: The first two references cited are in Chinese. Isn't that strange? He has nothing to do with China. And I don't think Chinese reports are suitable in the reference section.--Bicttobuct 05:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Chinese references were for the Hanja in his name. Who removed them AGAIN? And there is no rule against foreign-language references in Wikipedia. There also used to be a section with Korean media references called "South Korean reaction", but that got removed too. cab 07:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Korean Media Reference? 

message: Does anyone else think that we ought to point out the fact that some of the pics from Cho's Murder Manifesto were actually taken during his killing spree?  I mean, if that isn't Notable, then what in the world is?   NBC News, Dateline, the Today Show, and several other news outlets (to name a few) have reported that it is clear (some say, has been 'proven') that the pics of Cho taken in his dormitory room, in which he is dressed in the khaki vest carrying ammo and the black baseball cap turned backwards, were taken just after he killed (assassinated, imho) the first two students in their dorm, and immediately prior to mailing his 'Manifesto' after which he continued his rampage by shooting all of the students in/around Norris.
The pic we have here on WIKI of Cho holding both guns is one such photo that was taken during the killing spree -- making it doubly Infamous (and Notable) .... as it is both the exact image that the students/victims saw coming after them that day AND it was actually taken during the horrible act.  I cannot think of ANY other instance in which we have a PHOTOGRAPHIC RECORD  of a killer actually committing his crimes other than the video from Columbine, and this one is unique for a couple of reasons.  Therefore, because of its Notability and being utterly Unique, I think it bears mentioning (perhaps under the caption - maybe in a section/paragraph?) in the article on Cho. Maybe even within the section on his 'Murder Manifesto' ... since his video diary includes a section that he recorded during the murders ... in which he said that "you" made "him" do it and 'it didn't have to happen' (my opinion: 'whatever, Jerk').  Any other ideas or opinions on this?   172.146.142.247 20:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: None of the pictures were taken "during" the killing spree.  He was posing for a camera either at some point between the first set of shootings and the second, or some number of days or even weeks before the massacre. AFAIK, neither has been conclusively proven. Bueller 007 09:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: None of the references I've looked through state anything more than he mailed the package between the two incidents; the timestamp would be for the postage. In fact, this states that "Cho had worked on the package for some time". So unless you cite some other source, here, that says otherwise, I'm not inclined to change anything. Phony Saint 15:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: If there are "numerous" news commentaries on this, surely you can link us to one of them. Even if it is "plain enough," we still need a source. Phony Saint 17:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pointing Out a Significant, Notable Fact about the Manifesto Pics 

message: Article describes Cho as a "mass murderer," but the definition of murder precludes insanity -- an insane person is not capable of murder because he or she does not have a sound mind.  All of the descriptions of Cho in childhood and in recent years outline a person is was mentally ill.  So, like John Hinckley, Jr., if Cho is was mentally ill then he was not capable of the crime of murder.  The source linked to the term mass murder also describes it as someone who is guilty of murdering many people, but it too stands on the definition of murder as a crime committed by someone who is sane.  The links to that article likewise do not reference verifiable sources.69.255.0.91 23:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can see, the definition of murder is the unlawful, premeditated killing of someone by another. Insanity only comes into play when convicting someone of it. Phony Saint 23:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Merriam Webster says that murder is the crime of unlawful killing, but an insane person cannot be found guilty of a crime that requires premeditation, since premeditation requires a sound, rational mind.  Anyway, Cho is not a public figure and has not been found guilty of murder, so it may be a step too far to say he is a mass murderer, especially in the first line of the article.  The deceased's estate or family could file against Wikipedia and recover funds in order to pay the victims who suffered as a result of Cho's mental illness.  But that is not my problem. 69.255.0.91 01:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Committing a crime and being convicted of it are two different things. Legally, he is not a murderer (his death precluding the possibility of a trial) but the media does refer to him as such. Cho is in fact a public figure, his actions having put him in the public spotlight. Phony Saint 01:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: On second thought, you could rephrase it to say that he was "a Virginia Tech student who killed 32 people in the Virginia Tech massacre". Phony Saint 02:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Mass murder" is a term used for a specific kind of event.  That kind of event happened at Virginia Tech and it was the actions of Seung Cho that brought it about.  "Murderer," on the other hand, is an appellation given to a criminal convicted of murder (and, of course, used as a general perjorative for people we don't like whose actions result in death).  By this logic, Seung Cho isn't a murderer, because he'll never be convicted, and even if he lived and was tried, he'd probably be found not guilty  by reason of insanity and go to a state hospital, not death row.  However, his actions do constitute a mass murder. --Dynaflow 03:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not just say mass killer? 132.205.44.134 21:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is "Murderer" the correct term? 

message: I do not have the ability to EDIT, so if someone who does could please correct this, I would appreciate it.  As was verified on NPR just this morning, the State of VIRGINIA currently does NOT require an Instant Background Check in order to purchase a gun.  This requirement was part of the proposed legislation to change the current gun laws, but it has NOT YET been passed.  When Cho purchased his gun(s), all he was required to do was to show THREE FORMS OF ID:  Cho presented his State of VA Driver's License, his Legal Resident (aka 'green') Card, and (unbelievably!) a Pre-printed CHECK w/his name and address on it.  This has been reported/verified by the store (Blacksburg Gun Shop), the Chief Investigator (Blacksburg Police), the ATF, and numerous other news sources who have been running side stories on gun laws/gun control related to this incident (and how easy it was for Cho to LEGALLY get those guns).  Of particular interest, is the issue of Cho's Documented MENTAL ILLNESS, which would have PREVENTED him from legally obtaining a Gun (in those states that require a Background Check - of which Virginia is NOT one) ... IF Virginia would have had this law on the books at the time -- an Instant Background Check would have PREVENTED Cho from buying the guns.  Since this issue is white-hot right now, it makes this erroneous statement all the more troubling ... and it needs to be removed (no matter if it was incorrectly reported previously).  For further evidence, on Sunday 4/22, the tv news show 'Face the Nation' addressed this very issue, describing how ironic and sad it was that Virginia had failed to pass legislation requiring an Instant Background Check.   Can someone please remove the statement and correct this?  Thanx!   172.132.29.212 15:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So... do you have sources we can use for this? Regardless of whether or not the law was passed, news reports indicate that an instant background check was run. Phony Saint 15:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: From news reports such as this one, he underwent a background check - as required by law, according to the Virginia State Police web site. Obtaining any handgun from out-of-state still requires a background check. Nothing seems to be incorrect about it. Phony Saint 17:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: According to the first article, the background check for the Internet-purchased gun would fall under Federal law, not Virginia law: "Under federal law, a weapon purchased from an out-of-state dealer must be shipped to an in-state, federally licensed gun dealer, who runs a background check." If you have a source for what the Brady Center rep says, I'd love to see it. Phony Saint 20:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statement About 'Instant Background Check' (re: gun purchase) Is FALSE - Please Correct 

message: This article once had a pronunciation audio file. Someone deleted it, I suspect to deemphasize Cho's "foreignness". However, the fact is (and facts are important to Wikipedia) that Cho was a Korean national. Seung Hui Cho is thus a romanization of his real name, which is written in Korean characters and pronounced in a certain way. This is not merely an academic point -- some news organizations are pronouncing his name like "Joe". The Delete Police are doing us no favors by deleting stuff for no good reason and without discussion. What do people think about restoring pronunciation, perhaps in the "name" section. Soda80 02:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The pronunciation and audio file were restored before you posted. Phony Saint 02:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was quick. Okay, nevermind. 71.255.238.124 12:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: I'll leave it to others to determine whether they want to try and make use of some of the initial details here  at this time, or wait until the full reports are released and digested by the press. W.C. 22:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does anyone know if the autopsy on Cho included bloodwork to determine if he was on any antidepressants?  I noticed there was speculation in the media about whether or not he was ever on prescriptions meds.  Since they would leave traces in the bloodstream, the autopsy could have cleared it up.  Although come to think of it, it's rather doubtful, because he would need to have been with a psychiatrist to be able to get prescriptions, and a psychiatrist certainly would have noticed Cho's potentially-destructive behaviour.  There are doctor-patient confidentiality issues, but it doesn't apply if the patient is a criminal risk, which was the case with this guy.  J.J. Bustamante 13:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine a tox screen is routine for any sort of murder or suicide situation, which this obviously is. I don't know if it's typical to test for prescription antidepressants, but I've heard the possibility mentioned by law enforcement in the media, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Natalie 13:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Autopsies completed-NPR 

message: Here is a screen capture of the text from Cho's manifesto.  --Uthbrian (talk) 03:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That was interesting, thanks. I'm waiting eagerly for the full manuscript to be released for reading. 71.121.135.67 08:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manifesto Screen Capture 

message: Does anyone know where to get the full text (or as much of it as possible) of his 1800-word manifesto? Christopher Connor 20:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, and this talk page is for discussing the article, not the person. Phony Saint 20:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

text: A person who commits suicide is typically dead. Phony Saint 20:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Authorities have speculated about his the details of how he died but so far it appears that there may have been no actual witnesses to the act. W.C. 21:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, the Cho/VT massacre articles need a one-stop shop for links to the manifesto and all the released video of it available. 68.33.148.172 13:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where to get his manifesto 

message: http://asherheimermann.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/2nd-killer/
This is something that we should do more work on? 67.36.86.19 21:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's an unsubstantiated photo without a verifiable source. Many of those who have seen it have expressed doubts that it's actually Cho in the photo. Furthermore it's on the website of a career conspiracy theorist. If the investigation concludes there was a second killer, a second killer could be discussed, but all forensic mentions so far indicate Cho did it all. 71.121.135.67 08:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't think he/she is a theorist. I think he/she was just asking a question. And, thanks for that info. 65.43.22.203 22:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2nd Killer? 

message: To all those that contributed to this artice:  Thank you!  It is much more informative, tasteful and intelligent than any coverage I have seen in the news media. 24.215.145.136 06:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment to contributors 

message: The main page should display warnings about bias.  Since there is no diagnosis of autism, it is not the disease and, since it is a very misunderstood disease (which can't be "eliminated" the way "Rock Autism" claims) -- this is an example of the article's speculative bias and lack of factual matter.  Please place an NPOV or other appropriate tag on the page. 70.5.81.28 13:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:   See my comments in previous section. lwalt 14:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed 'neutrality' label, pending a better justification for its use. I rewrote the section on his young childhood and hope it now satisfies. —Sandover 15:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speculative