Talk:Ursa Major (Third Eye Blind album)

message: Finally I think we have enough info for this album to have its own page. The song list needs a source as well as any other speculation this article is grounds for deletion under wikipeida's guidelines. I am trying to figure out what record company is going to release the album. They used Elektra Records before but they were bought out by Warner Music Group under the Atlantic Reocrds Group subsidiary.
--zrulli 18:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

message: How do we change the article name to Ursa Major.  I saw Stephan Jenkins today (April 16, 2008) speak today at Penn State and he said that the new album would be called Ursa Major and that the B-sides album for their material would be called Ursa Minor.  I'm pretty sure he was serious. 
68.38.125.137 (talk) 03:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: Before I move for deletion per WP:AfD some time in the near future, can anyone cite some reliable sources to take this out of WP:CRYSTAL range? Erechtheus (talk) 21:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason that doesn't work as a source is WP:RS. It sounds like perfect territory for wikinews, but that's a different project. Erechtheus (talk) 02:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Hi guys, I can see that you both care about this article and want to improve it. 
Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and therefore requires its content be well sourced.  Any non-sourced material can be challenged and removed by any editor.  "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" says Wiki guidelines WP:V.  I see that currently the article has several inline citations and that is good. However some of the citations are from first party sources ie blogs, chat rooms, You Tube etc which are generally not acceptable sources according to Wiki guidelines. So these will need to be removed.  If you are unfamiliar with these polices please read WP:SOURCE. I like that you guys have an active dialogue going and are making good use of the talk page. I am looking forward to working together with you to find some good sources for this article and to make it accurate and strong.--Kbob (talk) 23:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Your information and insight are appreciated Kbob. Taking what you just wrote in stride, I am going to remove all non-sourced and all first party sources that have blogs, chat rooms and You Tube as references. Of course, once legitimate sources can be found, which Sergecross73 is currently looking into, they can be restored with the appropriate refs attached. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 23:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Hi Serge, I understand how you feel. You really care about this article, the band and the album. Unfortunately though, our personal opinions don't count on Wiki which is an encyclopedia.  Sources must be reliable and verifiable and Wiki has criteria for this. You are right it sometimes keeps out true information but it also keeps out false information.  Anyway those are the rules of Wiki. You might find that you get more fulfillment from establishing your own blog site or something. Then you can write whatever you want. But here on Wiki we have to stick to the rules.  All the Best,--Kbob (talk) 16:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving the Article 

message: My bottom line feeling on this article is that it appears to be promotional in nature. I'm not saying anyone has done this on purpose. But I do not see any benefit to Wiki or its readers by having this album as its own article. I see no reason why the information in it couldn't and shouldn't be merged with the current article on Third Eye Blind which also discusses this album. Any thoughts on that?--Kbob (talk) 02:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good points, but this album is set to come out on August 18, about a month from now and will have more information (sales, reception, critical and fan reaction) to expand upon in a reasonable amount of time. Since the album's release has been announced and there is already published information regarding it, it has enough to merit its own page. This article is not a duplicate. Little information regarding Ursa Major is on the Third Eye Blind main article. If you're arguing that this article should be merged since this album has yet to be released, then all articles in the Category:Upcoming albums page need to be merged/deleted as well. Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 02:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

text: OK, I'll let the issue lie for now. Let's see go through the sources and source everything and see what we really have. Then we can evaluate this idea again once we see what this article really amounts to. With that in mind, I'll remove the banner for now.--Kbob (talk) 16:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal to Merge

message: I've sort of been on the sidelines watching and chipping in every now and then with this, but even after reading through this talk page I still need a concrete response to this question:  are band members blogs 'reliable sources' in the sense that what content they have can be used towards the description or interpretation of an album or song? Measly pawn (talk) 20:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good question. In a court of law they would be considered a 'witness'. Info from other people would be considered 'hearsay'. However Wiki has different rules. Wiki says that first person information like blogs are not valid sources. Even if the blog is authored by an actual band member or someone with first hand knowledge. So Wiki prefers second or third level sources like newspapers, magazines etc.  For online citations that would mean an internet site that is by an organization and has an editing process like the site for Billboard or something.  So we can include articles by music critics but we can't include comments by band members or fans. The only exception is if a band member is quoted in a music review or article on the album, then that becomes a valid source.  The reason for all this is that anyone can create a blog, anyone can pose as a band member and a band member or fan is biased and not a neutral source of information.  That's Wiki's position.--Kbob (talk) 12:03, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That said, there are some exceptions for first party sources covered in the section WP:SELFPUB.  For example, if the band has an official web site, we can use that to 'self define' the article subject (Ursa Major) and if one of the band members writes the copy for that web site than so be it. But it has to be part of the official web site, not a personal blog.--Kbob (talk) 12:08, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand, and thank you for answering.  So, official news release on website = good, band blog on website = not as good.  But, what in the cases where the website treats certain blogs as official news releases?  This is to say, in their 'news' releases they reference a band member's blog?  I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm trying to get a handle of what can be claimed and what cannot.  Measly pawn (talk) 14:08, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's OK, good question. If a news article gives information that it has gained from a band blog than most likely that would give validation to the info because it has gone through a filtering process ie. the newspaper writer and editor. However, its hard to say for sure when we talk in 'what ifs' so if you have a source in mind just give us the link here on the talk page and we can check it out and see. Peace.--Kbob (talk) 12:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Clarification

message: Nice work adding citations everyone. I have removed one of the banners. Peace!--Kbob (talk) 01:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed Banner 

message: Eleventh Dream Day have also released an album called Ursa Major.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.191.253.185 (talk) 19:14, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Eleventh Dream Day album

message: * http://www.mtv.com/news/1533180/where-ya-been-sammie-graduating-to-comeback-third-eye-blind-can-see-clearly-now/
* http://www.mtv.com/news/1619592/third-eye-blind-manage-3-debut-as-reba-mcentire-tops-charts/ Sergecross73 msg me 17:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Ursa Major (album). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090821081401/http://abcnews.go.com:80/Entertainment/wireStory?id=8345934 to http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=8345934
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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 08:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified