Talk:Croatia/Archive 3

message: In the paragraph on history of Croatia I terribly miss mention of the referendum on independence, held on May 19 1990 among all citizens (including the, later, rebel territories populated with predominant Serbs), which is the basis of Declaration of independence. The results are:  83.56% of all registerd voted, and 94.17% were for the independece - which should be mentioned - means that at least half of the ethnic Serb population on compact territories voted FOR the independence. This fact, held AFTER the Borovo Selo Massacre and Bloody Easter on Plitvice, means that AT LEAST referendum, which is mentioned in paragraphs about never recognised Republika Srpska Krajina, and their leaders (now prosecuted or convicted at ICTY court in Hague, f.e. Milan Babić, Milan Martić and others) at least is not fair post which doesn't help reader to at least compare same level of facts.
Links:
http://www.nn.hr/clanci/sluzbeno/2002/2145.htm
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDZ#1990.
http://www.hrt.hr/arhiv/tudjman/povijest.html
--Mak13
:It is a very interesting fact, but I think it's on the level of detail unappropriate for the "History" section here. I suggest you put it in the History of Croatia article. --Zmaj 07:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yep. Is this why the article became locked? --HolyRomanEmperor 23:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Independence Referendum Fact 

message: Hello!  Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring – and with the hope of resolving this issue –  you might be interested in a poll currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article.  Please weigh in! Bitola | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Talk:Republic of Macedonia#POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article|POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article]] 

message: He is not Croat. It is simle to verify.--Medule 00:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He was a Serb born and raised in Croatia. He lived in Croatia until adulthood, attended Croatian schools, and frequently declared himself as a Croatian of Serbian ancestry. Infact, a direct quote is "I'm proud of my Serbian ancestry and my Croatian homeland". That pretty much qualifies him to be listed here. He may not be Croat but he was certainly Croatian. I have no objections if you want to list him under famous Serbs also. --Dr.Gonzo 20:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He never told "I'm proud of my Serbian ancestry and my Croatian homeland". That is fantasy first done by Macek. He was born in something what is now Croatia, but he is not Croat. You have list of Croats. How you are adding then Andric there. He is born in Bosnia, or Jelacic, born in Serbia.--Medule 21:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's get one thing straight Medule. I know you're a vandal and you are just gonna revert no matter what I say here. If this is your feeble attempt at gaining credibility it's not working. "Discussion" is not a monologue, and that's exactly what you have been doing in every "discussion" I ever started with you. So, please, keep living in your own twisted world of absolutes, but let us, the real Wikipedians, do our job without you reverting all our hard work. It's malicious and hostile and serves no purpose, since no one in the right mind will let you insert your twisted views here. This revert war will just drag on and on, so save us all a lot of trouble and just go away. --Dr.Gonzo 12:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tesla is not a Croat, but in the modern sence of the boundries he is a CroatIAN... --HolyRomanEmperor 11:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nikola Tesla 

message: Let me reiterate reasons against having this here:
* It doesn't fit into the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries template.
* It can never be neutral, because a selection of people needs a cutoff value and that's practically impossible to quantify. And even if it was quantified, the other 50% of people would probably disagree with the criteria.
* (Mostly because of the former reason...) It's almost a sure flamebait.
* It basically duplicates List of Croatians. On both content and the susceptibility to conflict.
Let's just save the whole thing for that article. --Joy [shallot] 18:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  People section 

message: I'm not sure the shape information belongs in the header, and if it does, it's clear that it should be either C-shaped or crescent-shaped (as it was until now), not U shaped (which is not the shape seen on most north-oriented maps today, maybe it would be on old Chinese east-oriented ones?) --Elephantus 08:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Comparing a country's shape with anything is degrading for that country and isn't useful at all (we have maps, don't we?). Therefore, there should be no shape comparisons of any kind. --Zmaj 09:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I for one have no problem with saying that my country has the shape of a crescent. It just plain old does, and it's no more degrading if it's spelled out than it is when it's not spelled out. Heck, at least it's an interesting shape, unlike some countries. --Joy [shallot] 16:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The shape in the header

message: I added the following to the geography section and it was removed, so perhaps I should have proposed it here first.
There is much debate over whether the country is considered part of the Balkans or not.
I think it's worth mentioning since a lot of the discourse around Croatia's EU membership has been to do with defining the country as 'Central European', whereas most people in Western Europe consider it part of the Balkans. So surely flagging up the issue is worthwhile. It's not like I'm taking sides and arguing in favour of one position or the other... Cordless Larry 11:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You say most people in Western Europe consider it part of the Balkans. In articles about specific countries, the opinions of people in other countries matter only if they have material consequences for that country. For example, the opinion of Greeks about the name of Macedonia is important because it actually resulted in changing the international name of Macedonia. Since the issue of whether Croatia is in the Balkans does not affect the country in any material way, it is irrelevant for such a general article. The first sentence says: The Republic of Croatia is a country in Europe bordering the Mediterranean, Central Europe and the Balkans. IMO, this is more than enough. --Zmaj 11:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The Twilight Zone, of course :) --Zmaj 12:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The word "bordering" was used probably by myself as a simple compromise. The listed geographic regions are not mutually exclusive, and indeed Croatia is, not least because of its peculiar shape, at the same time part of all three of those regions. How would you phrase that? --Joy [shallot] 16:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I suggest we wait for a couple of Croatian wikipedians to express their view on the suggestion. If they also agree, we can replace the current definition. After all, it is the lead section. EurowikiJ 19:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: There is no point in using such a detailed geographical definition in the lead section, that's what the geography section is for. --Joy [shallot] 22:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Exactly which are these reasons? Who exactly disputes that Croatia, at least in parts, is part of either of the three regions, and why? Let's not beat around the bush. --Joy [shallot] 12:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree, the rules for the lead section apply here just fine. --Joy [shallot] 12:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I kind of like the current sentence, but if someone could come up with a good replacement for "bordering" that would also mean "is partly in" and would be elegant enough, that would be great. --Elephantus 18:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Geography issues

message: GDP of Croatia is not  $55,638 million but $55,638 billion.--BorgDrone 17:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You've made a mistake, but I can guess why. Comma (,) is the decimal point in Croatian, but it is the thousand mark in English. The above figure means "fifty-five thousand million", not "fifty-five million". In other words, the statement "$55,638 million" means 55 billion dollars. I hope I've made it clear. --Zmaj 14:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Yeah, you've got a point :) --Zmaj 17:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GDP 

message: Can people hold off changing Serbia and Montenegro to Serbia, Montenegro in the neighbouring countries part of the geography section until they are actually separate countries, because although the referedum has passed, Montenegro's secession isn't complete just yet. Cordless Larry 14:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had written the Serbian part of Serbia and Montenegro, [...], the Montenegrin part of Serbia and Montenegro in the article previously, and the rationale is explained in /Archive 1#border with SCG. But anyway, it should all be simplified in just a few months time. --Joy [shallot] 12:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Serbia and Montenegro 

message: "Croatia is the Latinized version of the native name of the country: Hrvatska"
How on earth do you get "Croatia" from "Hrvatska"? This sentence needs expansion. --88.109.73.156 18:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of "Croatia" 

message: Nowadays country/space IS called Croatia.
But Croatian territory has a long, long history of witch we learn literaly NOTHING in this article.
What about prehistoric period, what about Illirians, what about Celts, what about Greek colonies, what about Roman provinces? Why do our cities call upon their morethousands long historical herittage, culture, beauty? Do they have any reason for it?
Where are the crusaders? Roman Emperors? Great battles with Turks? Heroes? Small people?
Are you people blind? Why do you write this stuff if your knowledge is so little? Who do you represent?
I SUGGEST YOU TO READ SOME OTHER NATIONS PAGES!!!   USE THE SPACE!!   PEOPLE READ THIS AND THEY DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!
::Calm down. there are no special paragraphs about Celts or Indians in history of Great Britain and United States, why should be in Croatia main article? There is history article, there is Balkans, Dalmatia, Pannonia etc. And BTW, your name is? --€ro 18:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do you call this history ? 

message: User:Afrika paprika is on a campaign of reverting anything I edit. He has thus (besides expressing heavy Croatian POV), rv the version of this article to a Serbian POV. I am reporting that here. --PaxEquilibrium 15:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afrika paprika 

message: I was wondering if there is any verifiable source or historical precedent for using forewall as translation of antemurale (not necessarily related to Croatia). I understand this follows from the literal translation of the Latin word and Google produces some uses of the word in the context of fortification, but I haven't been able to locate "forewall" in any English dictionary (including Merriam-Webster Online). Damir 08:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen "Rampart of Christendom" in a book once. However, I have no idea what the most popular translation is. --Thewanderer 01:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forewall of Christianity 

message: Joseph is not patron of Croatia as a country, but Croatians as people. Please see Catholic Online: Patron Saints. --€ro 12:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patron saint 

message: Can someone knowledgeable about Croatian surnames evaluate my changes to Bill Belichick?  (discussion.)   TIA, PhilipR 01:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Surname transliterated as "Belicic" 

message: Created a new infobox for Croatian Towns. Please see Virovitica (and Template:Infobox Croatian Town) and tell me if this would be ok. It would be necessary to agree on parameters the infobox uses (population, car_registration, etc.). Could modify it according to your wishes. Also created some other infoboxes on German Wikipedia for islands, counties, etc. So please compare... --Maestral 18:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I suggest that this infobox should be posted into all articles about Croatian municipalities (like it was done with Serbia). PANONIAN (talk) 13:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Think so too. But beforehand we should have a better look on the template, whether parameter names are correctly used, whether somebody would like to add parameters, etc. I should also translate the description page too. As far as the outlook is concerned - it is very easy to change it at any time. We should only think about a standardized version and what should be included. --Maestral 13:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Town Infobox 

message: I left this message here some time ago, somebody reversed it....
What is the correct day of Croatian independence? I spent 2 years as a student in Zagreb (had to take some courses for the history major) and I am very much interested in Balkan states, I am still lost, I do know the language (i am from indiana, originally), and I don't speak it that well. But I understand. I suggest, this article expands, talks more about the main reason for croatian independence, I know politics and economy is always the reason, but land was additional reason, tudjman (i was in hospital, the same hospital when he died and it was december 9th, just before midnight, it was announced after 1am december 10th, even findagrave says he died dec 9 www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7942) for example wanted greater croatia, this article needs more details why croatia wanted independence and why others did not agree with it and the reasons for war. 
I am very muchinterested in civil war, what are the claims to those?
I know slavic people are independent, but why separate?<P>
Do we have correct number of deaths in the 1991-1995 war for each warring side?
:Please use Wikipedia for this purpose, don't just ask. See Croatian War of Independence for instance. BR, Plantago 14:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Civil war and independence