Talk:Palestine

message: I don't really see the point of the changes; the current article Palestine is indeed about the geography and history of the region, which is a sensible decision.  The political entity State of Palestine, an alternative meaning of "Palestine", is disambiguated below.  Recognition or political views don't seem to me to have much to do with useful disambiguation.  So I reverted.John Z (talk) 04:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The usage and topic of "Palestine", "State of Palestine", "Palestine (region)" is up for discussion, see two conflicting move requests at Talk:State of Palestine and Talk:Palestine -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: "Palestine"

message: It is proposed to rename Jewish insurgency in Palestine → Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine.
Please discuss it on Jewish insurgency in Palestine talk page.GreyShark (dibra) 14:59, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion relevant to this topic

message: I don't have any political stake; I am simply doing disambiguation as part of wp:DPL.The "State of Palestine" is currently described on this disambiguation page as:
*State of Palestine, a modern de jure sovereign state in the Levant
I propose that "Levant" be changed to simply "Palestine (region)", i.e. change to:
*State of Palestine, a modern de jure sovereign state in Palestine (region)
Reasons:
*The word "Levant" is obscure, and it is unnecessary and unhelpful to introduce the term.  Apparently, per the Levant article, it is a vast area that includes Greece, Turkey, Egypt, half of Libya, and Iraq, which I did not know.  Most disambiguation page users will not understand it.  Note that Levant includes area that is not even part of the Middle East (e.g. Greece), and the Middle East includes area not part of Levant (e.g. Yemen).  And since this is a disambiguation page and the term is not to be wikilinked, the user cannot even click on Levant to look up what it means.  Note the term Middle East is used in the description of Palestine (region), just before.  It seems unhelpful to bring up a term for an overlapping, comparable but different big area.  I surmise that the word "Levant" was added here by a learned person to provide variety, as if the goal of writing on this page is to provide interesting and thought-provoking material.  A disambiguation page should be boring and simple and clear, instead.
*A much better alternative is available: "Palestine (region)", which users of the page see used just before.  It is a true fact that State of Palestine is within Palestine (region).  I believe that no one claims that State of Palestine goes beyond the region (knock on wood).  This usage of the just-defined term helps the reader understand the relationship between the two (one is inside the other) instead of introducing new questions.
*Plan B:  If someone does claim that State of Palestine goes beyond Palestine (region), or if there is other objection to Palestine (region) then another alternative is better than Levant.  Namely "Middle East" should be used instead, repeating its usage on the page.
*Something further to avoid:  "Southern Levant".  I tried changing the article to avoid "Levant" (and to make another change) but was instantly reverted by an edit that wanted to introduce "Southern Levant".  That is even worse, so I reverted to the version before mine.  Few know where the Levant is and virtually no one knows where the "Southern" part of it is.  Did you know that Southern Levant in fact does not include the southernmost parts of Levant?  (According to the maps given in the Wikipedia articles, the south of Libya and Egypt are the southernmost parts of Levant, but they are not included in Southern Levant.
Does this need to be an RFC, and does there need to be voting? --doncram 17:38, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It is wrong to say that State of Palestine is located in Levant or Palestine (region) or anywhere else. The state does not have defined borders, it is not located anywhere. What the article should say is that the state claims territory in Palestine (region), namely the Palestinian Territories. “WarKosign” 18:00, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Can this discussion section be about "Levant" vs. "Palestine (area)"?  About wording for State of Palestine's existence and/or claims, I also propose a wording change: please see next section. --doncram 18:23, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  drop word "Levant" 

message: *I have recently added a Wikilink for the "de jure" statement to allow readers access to what the term means (something rather important for the disambig, IMO) as it is not common knowledge. I have since been twice reverted by the same editor who believes that the link is "irrelevant to disambig". Is it irrelevant or does it actually help further clarify an already confusing disambig page on a confusing term? Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 00:38, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: *Considering that de jure is not even correct in reference to SoPalestine (although that is a matter for that article's talk page) as well as that the de jure article offer ZERO insight with regards to the SoP, I remain absolutely opposed the link as completely extraneous to the purpose of the disambiguation page. older ≠ wiser 01:14, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "De jure" is being used to describe the SoP as only being a technically sovereign state, instead of being an actually, or "de facto", sovereign state. The link is not to clarify anything about the SoP article per se, but to clarify the summary about the SoP being used in the current disambig page. I am trying to help clarify the current revision for readers, which seems to be somewhat stable in wording at the moment. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 01:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, the article at de jure has no relevance whatsoever for a reader choosing which entry is desired. older ≠ wiser 09:52, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The link is not designed to solve the Palestinian Question; it's function is to define "de jure", which it does perfectly adequately. I vote to link. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: , the message you are sending translates as "the statement of 'de jure' is not needed as it adds nothing to which article is being picked by the reader at the disambig page". Please consider what I am actually saying and which  has perfectly summarised. A disambig summary adds nothing to the article, but is useful at clarifying which article is wanted and what I am trying to do via linking is to clarify the summary, not the article. Big and important distinction. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 10:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Disambiguation pages are navigational tools. If the description alone is not sufficient to help a reader distinguish between the entries, then no amount of extraneous links to definitions is going to help. If a reader has to click on de jure to understand whether or not SoP is the entry they want from the dab page, then the description is a failure. They then have to somehow navigate back to the dab page to complete their selection. Once again, there is absolutely no use for such a link on the disambiguation page. older ≠ wiser 10:59, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

text: Or pipe link technically Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:36, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: , generally the language in the description corresponds with the lead sentence of the corresponding article. Sometimes paraphrasing is needed. So I don't have any strong opinion regarding the use of "de jure" versus "technically". My only objection is to the inclusion of links that are extraneous for the purpose of disambiguation. As such, , piping the links makes no difference in my opinion. The link is still irrelevant, or even a distraction, for disambiguation. older ≠ wiser 12:04, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Current wording is far worse. What on earth is "Technical sovereign state" ? The term "de-jure" has a single well-defined meaning that fits the situation exactly and anyone who doesn't know it can look it up. "Technically" has several meanings most of which are completely irrelevant here. Pipelinking technically to de-jure is WP:EASTEREGG. “WarKosign” 18:32, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: So, , would you prefer to link the "de jure" then? Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 22:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I prefer not to wikilink, but don't feel too strongly about it. The important part on this page is disambiguation and understanding the term de-jure is not critical to understand that this disambiguation option is about the state. Anyone who doesn't know what de-jure means can first go to State of Palestine and then click on de-jure. Having the term wikilinked misleads the reader into thinking that it's one of the disambiguated options. “WarKosign” 06:32, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: To Wililink or not to Wikilink the statement of "de jure"?

message: The Palestine disambiguation page currently gives no clue as to who governs the occupied Palestine territory since 2013, which is unacceptable for disambiguation page users.  Is this a minefield or what?
What on earth is wrong with changing from current:
* Palestinian National Authority, an interim self-government body established to govern parts of the Palestinian territories between 1994 and 2013
to proposed:
* Palestinian National Authority, or Palestine Authority, an interim self-government body established to govern parts of the Palestinian territories since 1994.  It included the Gaza Strip until 2007.  Since 2013 it has used the name State of Palestine.
An editor immediately reverted that change (along with other changes) with comment that there has been a unity government again, perhaps implying that the Palestine National Authority regained governance over the Gaza Strip (an implication not supported by the Palestinian National Authority article, AFAICT).  It is a fact that the territories included the Gaza Strip until 2007, right?  I don't know whether or not the territories it governs includes the Gaza Strip now, but the statement as written was correct, is it not?  Is there anything factually wrong with the proposed?  I feel the current version is unacceptable.
, would you please state an alternative that you feel is acceptable for this item?  Others, comments would be welcome.  Or how is this supposed to work? 
Meanwhile, the last 500 of 3,500 inbound links are being "corrected" by disambiguators, based on inadequate descriptions of these alternatives. --doncram 23:19, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There's nothing wrong with the existing wording. It only states "parts". There is no ambiguity. "Since 2013 it has used the name State of Palestine" is misleading. The State of Palestine was declared in 1988, and is more than simply an authority controlling the Gaza Strip and areas A and B of the West Bank. I don't see any problem with the current wording but if you wish to amend it then please propose wording here before doing so. Thanks, Rob984 (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  correct description of Palestinian National Authority 

message: ===Shouldn't we add more names of regions overlaping "Palestine"?===
Such as Southern Levant, Canaan, Land of Israel, Holy Land --Bolter21 15:11, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good. Also I'd like to consider merging some of them, there seems to be too many articles dedicated to the same concept. “WarKosign” 15:23, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a topic for another conversation. --Bolter21 15:32, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

text: No we should not. That is covered in detail in the relevant article Palestine (region). Disambiguation pages are not meant to list synonyms. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in the See Also, not in the article it self.
===Should articles about demographics and culture should be in the section?===
I see no reason to put articles about culture and demographics in the disambig article, it was not done in any of the other disambig articles I checked, including most countries of the Middle East and Ireland. --Bolter21 21:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also section 

message: I see no reason to put articles about culture and demographics in the disambig article, it was not done in any of the other disambig articles I checked, including most countries of the Middle East and Ireland. --Bolter21 21:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Should articles about demographics and culture should be in the section?

message: Would anyone mind if I put in an Archivebot? I would set the "algo" to 30, and have "minthreadsleft" = 4 (avoids blank talk page), unless anyone feels strongly about more or less values. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 03:38, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving old sections 

message: The page currently says: "Since 2013, the Palestinian National Authority is officially referred to as the State of Palestine by international and internal organisations"
It's very vague.
By which organizations? All organizations?
And why 2013? It was called "State of Palestine" by some organizations before 2013.
It's best to just remove this phrase, and to organize "State of Palestine", "Palestinian territories" and "Palestinian National Authority" in one place. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:16, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "by international and internal organisations" 

message: The article states: "Land of Israel, another common name for roughly the same region". The countries Palestine and Israel are not the same. Please correct. 89.99.149.60 (talk) 19:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Should we consider this request an indication that maybe the page can do a better job explaining the different meanings ? “WarKosign” 21:20, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a very valid point. Jeppiz (talk) 21:26, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Land of Israel is basically Talmudic and religious, and now in modern  Hebrew, which has adopted Likud usage, a euphemism for Israel and the Palestinian territories, and not excluding, in rightwing usage, the Golan and Jordan. 'Palestine' is the default term in historical usage, and the page shouldn't be worried over the difference, if only because (and one can't trust the dreadfully incomplete Land of Israel article) tpo elaborate and clarify would unnecessarily charge the article with a distinction that is not saliently pertinent to the history of Palestine, being sectarian, modern and political.Nishidani (talk) 21:36, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2015 

message: You wrote that PNA is called State of Palestine by most international organization, do you have any source that supports it ? Note that recognition of SoP is not the same as accepting that PNA was renamed. “WarKosign” 17:07, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  PNA renamed 

message: To stop the edit warring and find a solution, I've launched an RfC about "partially recognized state" here. Jeppiz (talk) 00:33, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: All you had to do to stop the edit warring was not edit war. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:38, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Well right back at you. Both of us edited this article once, so no difference between us there. What is different is that I opened a discussion about it to find a solution, while you, as always, just commented on users instead of content. If you have anything of substance to add, you're welcome to take part in the RfC. Jeppiz (talk) 00:41, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The difference between us is that I restored the longstanding version and asked for talk page discussion by those who want to change, per BRD. You just edit warred. Well, then went and made a POINTy edit on another page, and then opened a discussion. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:43, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC about the lead at [[Israel]] 

message: Tmbenton62 (talk) 23:07, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Also, see the references on International recognition of the State of Palestine. If you are requesting a change, please back it up with reliable sources. — Andy W. (talk) 23:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

text: It is much more complicated then that. In fact there is a "State of Palestine", just it is not a state (yet).--Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:12, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 5 October 2016 

message: "Palestine (2011 book), a 2011 compilation of the Ayatollah Khomenei's statements on Israel and Palestine" - Don't Ayatollah Khomenei, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.--Samral (talk) 14:44, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Palestine (2011 book)]] 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:State of Palestine which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 20:44, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: Talk:State of Palestine#Requested move 23 October 2017“WarKosign” 06:26, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Your comments are welcome at a move discussion 

message: I made the map larger (mostly to accommodate larger caption text). Using template small on caption text is ridiculous, no use having text if it is unreadable. User-duck (talk) 04:05, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Larger map and caption text 

message: Since de jure is not a frequently used phrase, at least not for me, and I had to look it up, just link to its wiki page.
In the first section, change the 2nd bullet from
    State of Palestine, a modern de jure sovereign state in the Middle East recognized by 136 UN members and with non-member observer state status in the United Nations
to
    State of Palestine, a modern de jure sovereign state in the Middle East recognized by 136 UN members and with non-member observer state status in the United Nations Lbwilliams 06:20, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.“WarKosign” 07:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 May 2018 

message: 2600:6C56:6908:2893:6D26:58A6:F819:6323 (talk) 15:35, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the  template. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

text: See Status of Jerusalem. Chxeese (talk) 01:31, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 September 2020 

message: Why is Palestine called a "sovereign state" and Israel called a "country" when Israel is a settler colony in the *country* of Palestine? Researchersnotes (talk) 08:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to unpack that a bit, what edit are you suggesting exactly?Selfstudier (talk) 08:30, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  "sovereign state" 

message: Please allow the Palestinian flag to be on there 2601:5C8:4303:89C0:A9E3:D673:9A60:6DAD (talk) 02:18, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a disambiguation article, see State of Palestine for the flag. Selfstudier (talk) 08:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is the flag not on there , that is Necessary 

message: Add an entry for the Palestinian National Authority. Now there is no link to the Palestinian National Authority on this disambiguation page. And the term 'Palestine' may refet to the Palestinian National Authority as well. Caenus (talk) 18:47, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2022 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:State of Palestine which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 15:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: Please shorten the image caption.  "Borders of the Palestinian territories (West Bank and Gaza Strip) which are claimed by the State of Palestine" is a little longer than needed; if you remove "which are", the phrase still makes sense. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 00:53, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: -Lemonaka‎ 12:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 October 2023 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:State of Palestine which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 00:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:State of Palestine which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 21:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:State of Palestine which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 03:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress