Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Finnish)

message: I provide some information here in order to avoid unneccessary arguments motivated by uninformed native anglophone sentiments in favour of incorrect English spelling:
* letter 'ä' in Finnish is spelled 'ae' oe Æ in English language
* letter 'a' has nothing to do with letter 'ä' in English or in Finnish language
* letter 'ö' in Finnish is spelled 'oe' or 'Œ' in English language
* letter 'o' has nothing to do with letter 'ö' in English or in Finnish language
Check the links to find the phonetic spelling of the letters, say them aloud and you will hear the difference. 
However I agree with you: ae and oe make Finnish names look so cumbersome and unrecognizble.
* Kimi Raekkoenen?
* Mika Haekkinen?
* Anneli Jaeaetteenmaeki !
No wonder they don't use the correct spelling in NHL shirts. Takes space from the sponsors.
I think this is an arcane way of spelling these letters. It is better to accept the use of nordic versions in wikipedia.(Spespatriae 20:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Correct spelling in English language

message: The proposal is pretty long for a guideline on the use of three letters. Can we run through it and cut down on some of the verbiage? Or at least have a summary? Fagstein 18:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The proposal would make the current practice of using å, ä and ö in Finnish names the norm. Basis of the proposal: follows the similar practice in Norwegian and Swedish names. The proposal also argues that å, ä and ö are not diacritical forms of a and o but separate letters and dropping them out would cause ambiquity with similar Finnish names with a and o: e.g. Harkonen vs. Härkönen. Redirects should be placed, where this is not a danger. Most of the proposal argues for these points with a legalistic attitude towards the Wikipedia conventions. --MPorciusCato 06:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Length

message: :Finnish letters are discrete letters of the alphabet, as opposed to Latin letters with added diacritics, and therefore are a separate matter altogether from diacritics.
What is this supposed to mean?  From an English-speaking PoV, it is not true; all letter modifications are diacritics. If it means that Finnish alphabetizes ä separately, so what? So does Swedish. Septentrionalis 16:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's plain pedantry, is what.  This exact same conversation has been held between the exact same people before, so it isn't as if anyone is just now encountering the English-speaking POV and is surprised by it.  Ravenswing 00:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discrete letters

message: I am not advocating separate rules for ice hockey players or any other specific group of people or articles. Several times the question "Why should hockey players be treated differently and separate on wikipedia?" has been asked. I have answered it several times and i will answer it again. Hockey players should not be treated differently or separately from anyone else. The policy of "most common English name" should be followed for virtually all articles (certain exceptions apply, of course, such as cases of disambiguation). It just happens that the majority of English publications about hockey players drop diacritics and other foreign characters. And i am not just talking about internet publications either. Reference books, newspapers, magazines, hockey cards, official NHL publications, newscasts, etc. all seem to drop "those funny little dots". Very rarely do i see those "funny little dots" added to publications in English. So, getting back to the original question, hockey players shouldn't be treated differently from any other famous Finn. If the majority of English publications omit diacritics for a certain finn, even a non-hockey one, then wikipedia should too. If the majority of English publications use diacritics for a certain finn, even a hockey one, then wikipedia should too. It is a case by case situation. Masterhatch 18:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But in principle this is what you ask for, drop the real names of hockey players, only since they have more things published about themselves without dots and rings, while e.g. Selma Lagerlöf is allowed to have her name spelled as in her home country since she had more control over how her name was printed on her books published in english, or maybe it is more common for publishers to use the name from the passport, and Patrik Sjöberg can have his name since IIAF is better at allowing birth names than NHL. This is the argument here, I want consistancy, (and real names :-) ) not exception for hockey players, what you ask for is not consistent, and follow a bad rule in wikipedia. Stefan 14:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that you point it out, Selma Lagerlöf is misindexed.  Could you fix the sort key?  Gene Nygaard 08:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Separate rules for ice hockey players

message: One of the major arguments used by the pro-diacritic side is that English spells it wrong. I can see your side of it, from a Finnish point of view. But this isn't the finnish section wikipedia, it is the English section. And in English, we spell things differently than in Finland. I will repeat: differently, not wrong. The US spells things differently than England, but American spellings are not wrong, just different. Omitting "those funny little dots" in English does not make the spelling wrong in English. An example (a poor one i might add) related dropping diacritics to spelling wierd, recieve and other English words wrong. As far as i can tell, the only people that spell wierd are people who aren't sure of the spelling. All reputable English publications spell it weird, not wierd. But, if, for whatever reason, reputable English publications started spelling it wierd, including dictionaries, then wikipedia would have to move its article from weird to wierd, even though that is the "wrong" spelling. But it would no longer be the "wrong" spelling. If enough reputable sources spelt it wierd, then it would become the "right" spelling in English. A perfect example of this happening is the word "catalogue". "Catalog" has become so common of a spelling (even though to me it looks totally wrong and odd), that that is the spelling used on wikipedia. So, to sum up, spelt "wrong" holds no water as it is just spelt differently in English. Masterhatch 19:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree you about everything except the names of individual, non-royalty, people. I still maintain these people themselves have the authority on the spelling of their own names. Not the English speaking community, not the Finnish speaking community, not you, not I, or anyone else other than them. JIP | Talk 20:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And even for royality, there is a distinction between their royal and personal names. Royal names are translated, personal names aren't. For example, when Prince Charles becomes King of the United Kingdom, in Finland he will officially be known as "Ison-Britannian kuningas Kaarle III", but his own, personal name will still remain "Charles Windsor", even when used in a Finnish context. JIP | Talk 20:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How do we know which spelling they prefer? Teemu doesn't seem to mind that there are no "funny little dots" on the back of his sweater or on his name in official NHL publications. True be told, there is no way to know for sure what the individual thinks of the matter. All we have to go on is the spelling accepted and used by publications in English (hence the no original research policy). If i was a professional athlete and my name was spelt wrong on my sweater, i would put up a huge stink and have it fixed. Teemu, as far as i know, hasn't done that. Does that mean he just doesn't care? does that mean he tried and the teams he played for wouldn't fix it? does that mean he understands that English spellings are different from Finnish spellings? There is no way to tell for sure. Out of curiosity, has Teemu written an autobiography in English? if so, how is the name spelt? I went to amazon.com to see if i could find a book that would resemble an autobiography of his. This  is the closest i could find and its title doesn't include "those funny little dots". If his name was really spelt wrong, not just different, don't you think he would put up more of a fuss over the matter? I know i would. Just some food for thought. Masterhatch 20:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sure Teemu himself prefers the spelling Selänne, not Selanne. It might just be too difficult for him to complain to every one of the millions of places his name is spelled incorrectly. Even his own sweater might be out of his control, there might be technical restrictions to writing names on the sweaters. JIP | Talk 05:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I doubt that there are technical restrictions on sweaters because many spanish named baseball players use that swiggly line on the "N" on their baseball jerseys. Masterhatch 02:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This raises additional questions. If American sports teams choose to spell ñ with the tilde, why do they choose to spell ä and ö without the dots? In Spanish, ñ is n with a diacritic. In Finnish, ä and ö are separate letters, not related to a and o. Do Americans treat some foreign letters as better than others? Or is ñ really a part of the English alphabet? OTOH, it might simply be a difference between sports. Maybe baseball teams work differently from ice hockey teams. JIP | Talk 09:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a guess here: it could be that Americans are more familar with Spanish than they are with other european languages and most americans know the difference in pronunciation between ñ and n and not ä and ö and a and o. Also, it is fairly common to see the ñ kept on borrowed words but fairly uncommon to see ä and ö kept on borrowed words. Masterhatch 22:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is what I was thinking too. This reinforces my idea that Americans simply don't know about ä and ö, and contradicts your idea that Americans are well aware them, but choose not to use them to preserve the purity of the English alphabet. JIP | Talk 11:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are, after all, thousands of different squiggly letters used around the world, and probably not a handful of people who know how to make all of them when looking for something in a search engine or a "Go" button or when writing a newspaper, a magazine, or a scientific journal.  There is no "error" in using the English alphabet when writing in English.  While the enye may be more common in English than some other letters with squiggles, don't be misled into thinking that it is not omitted in English more often than it is included.  Furthermore, ñ is a separate letter in the Spanish alphabet ("but ñ is a letter in its own right"), indexed after n and before o. So you obviously aren't as well versed in this as you think you are.  Gene Nygaard 13:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Furthermore, it would be ridiculous to expect English Wikipedia readers—and editors—to be making distinctions based on the fact that ä is a "separate letter" in some obscure languages, but merely a "letter with a diacritic" in other foreign languages more closely related to English.  Gene Nygaard 13:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, I have to admit I was wrong about ñ being n with a diacritic, but my other arguments still stand. JIP | Talk 14:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

text: I have never met Teemu, but I imagine if I were to ask him "Which spelling do you think is more correct, Selänne or Selanne?" he would answer "Of course Selänne is more correct. Most Americans, including my teammates, spell it Selanne, which is technically incorrect, but I don't really mind it." It would be a completely absurd idea to think he himself would prefer the spelling Selanne. I have made a mental note to ask Teemu about this if I should ever meet him. JIP | Talk 19:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It really doesn't matter; what matters is how it is spelled in English.  But even with your viewpoint, what would you do with people for whom their own spelling of their names is either time-dependent or location-dependent or language-dependent, something that likely happens thousands of times for even just the people with Wikipedia articles, though we generally haven't even explored that issue to determine that it takes place in most instances?  That includes even politicians or entertainers who were born without any diacritics and never used them until they stick them on as adults to try to play up to a block of voters or a potential movie audience or a brand-recognition scheme as a rock band or whatever, as well as many who go the oter way when they live or work in an English-speaking environment, for example.  Gene Nygaard 14:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not spelt wrong