Talk:Dayton, Ohio

message: By Wikipedia standards, wouldn't most of the material in this article serve the Wikipedia community better if it were in a separate article titled "Dayton, OH Metropolitan Area" or "Miami Valley OH" or at least segmented within this article?DjKinDayton (talk) 16:53, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Dayton metropolitan area and Miami Valley articles exist. Relevant material can be repeated in each or cross-referenced from each. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:45, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  this Dayton, OH article is more about the Dayton region 

message: Statistics for the different religions could be added. See http://www.census.gov/prod/www/religion.htm for potential sources like http://www.thearda.com/mapsReports/reports/counties/39113_2000.asp. This web site appears to aggregated material from http://www.asarb.org/ DjKinDayton (talk) 19:59, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Areas for Improvement 

message: Paganism predates the Monotheistic religions and is practiced fervently in the Dayton area, therefore it deserves mentioning.
When I first started editing this section a couple of years ago, it was basically an advertisement for a Protestant religion. Now it still has some of those same characteristics but is more encyclopedic. The US gov doesn't collect info on religious affiliation, but it does consistently use data from several sources I can't remember now. If you want to delete references to what you consider 'non-notable' religions, please justify the 'non-notable' label statistically. DjKinDayton (talk) 17:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See WP:N for the notability justification. Notability is one of the pillars. The label doesn't need to be justified, the notability needs to justified through reliable sourcing. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the website links and end-note citation adequately justify the material.  Per WP:N "On Wikipedia, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a topic can have its own article." ... "These notability guidelines only outline how suitable a topic is for its own article or list. They do not directly limit the content of an article or list." The article here is Dayton, OH, a notable city. The topic is religion, a notable topic (but one not normally entertained on most Wikipedia articles about cities). While everything in an article must be substantiated, it does not necessarily need to be considered notable or about 50% of the Dayton OH article would be deleted.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DjKinDayton (talk • contribs) 19:18, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe WP:N still applies -- or at least WP:RS and WP:V and WP:OR still apply. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the material is properly cited by the embedded links and end-notes. DjKinDayton (talk) 19:59, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with JHunter notability is an issue. How significant is the Pagan Alliance to the culture of Dayton (i.e. adherents & visibility in the community)? Not every faith or belief should be noted in a city article, of which there may be hundreds depending on the size of a city...--Chimino (talk) 20:14, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. You'd be hard-pressed to find other city articles with information about non-notable congregations. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Agreed. I also stand beside JHunter and Ohnoitsjamie on this issue. I honestly don't even see the need for a region section in this aricle at all. It is not notable enough to be included. What makes Dayton different from any other similar city concerning it's religous affiliations? I don't see the notability. Texas141 (talk) 22:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Agreed. ... with Texas141. If no one has the time to look at the statistical data on the websites above, let's drop the whole section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DjKinDayton (talk • contribs) 02:38, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion of content and notability 

message: Your article has attracted some attention relating to this particular subheading of religion.  The topic requires either a good general overview (in standard encyclopedic practice) or greater detail, delineating all faiths practiced regularly and notably in Dayton.  I note that three "Christian" (as it is listed) houses of worship are listed, being almost arbitrary and possible biased. One of your Dayton houses of worship is a megachurch located well out of the city.  How is this a representation of religion in the City of Dayton?  The point of this article is to inform while avoiding such bias.  There are numerous houses of worship in Dayton which could also claim representation here, including major Catholic ones (St. Mary's Church being a prominent example).  One doesn't simply list religion as it appears to the writer.  An encyclopedic article should be noted for a balanced and somewhat distanced and factual presentation of the subject.
The Jewish religion ("Judaic", in the article as I found it listed) is NOT represented by a single reform temple, as there are three traditional branches of Judaism practiced in Dayton and three major houses of worship (among others) which have long traditions in Dayton dating back to 1850.  I have included this as an exercise in accuracy.  What you've previously written is basically misrepresentation.
Regarding some of your examples, The Sacred Heart Church is more of an architectural landmark than a major current representation of religion being practiced in the city.  A small Vietnamese Catholic congregation is currently housed there.  This is more an example of diversity than traditional religious practice in Dayton.  A more established house of worship in Downtown Dayton (if landmarks be a desirable point of mention) is Westminster Presbyterian Church - itself a landmark with a strong history.
I would strongly suggest that the religion section of this article list generalities without trying to itemize religions (from an obvious bias) and refer only to principal institutions serving religions (such as the University of Dayton).  Coming from a position of relative ignorance or of strong leanings is not a proper basis for listing information on a topic.  Jsteeber (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: General practice in other articles is to discuss only houses of worship that have achieved notability, which until your recent edit, was the situation here.  If you are looking at this as you describe, I can understand why you feel that this section is slanted.  However, if you remember that we are speaking with a neutral tongue and only covering houses of worship and not religious practices, the prior version of this was neutral.  No decisions on content were made based on religion, only on notability.  Accordingly, I have reverted your edit that introduced two non-notable houses of worship.  Further discussion is welcome, but this is the general practice on US settlement articles that have a religion section. John from Idegon (talk) 16:10, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The topic provided is "Religion" - not houses of worship - which would make a respectable subsection on its own.  Slanted it is.  How does a Tipp City church become a Dayton house of worship?  How was this church selected for inclusion in this article?  I maintain that there is a strong bias here and reject, certainly for my own point, for instance, that Judaism in Dayton is represented (with an implication of exclusivity) by Temple Israel.  Would you also point to one house of worship representing Christianity?  If you want to maintain a discussion of religion, per an encyclopedic approach, there is no need to discuss houses of worship unless they are principal administrative seats, save for an incidental highlight or two.  I can't state this any clearer.  If this is not more carefully reviewed, I continue asserting these issues until a more informed approach is achieved.  Jsteeber (talk) 16:57, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thought I would comment as an objective observer... The section clearly needs work. Even when articles exist on Wikipedia and a Wikilink to that article is used, we should still be using inline citations to support each statement (even if they are the same references that are used in the respectively-linked articles). As for representation, it is not up to us to decide which religions are included and which are not. Any given city could have dozens if not hundreds of different denominations. Including them all would be counterproductive and go against the norms on this site. It's worth pointing out that some big city articles such as Cleveland don't even have a section on religion. A reliable source should narrow it down clarifying the predominant religions for us, or we should opt to not mention the topic at all. As Jsteeber rightfully points out, notable buildings are not necessarily the same as notable religions, with a good example being the Sacred Heart Church. Items like these belong in the architectural section. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:27, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no problem with the removal of any institutions outside the city.  I would also have no problem with the removal of the entire section.  Short of those options, I don't see any other way to deal with this than the way we are dealing with it, ie, only discussing the institutions that have already achieved notability. If someone wants to research and write a demographic discussion of religion in Dayton, I would have no problem with that.  But it is a slippery slope when we start discussing specific, non-notable institutions, as where do we draw the line without asserting some POV or another? John from Idegon (talk) 21:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless the section is rewritten with better prose and proper inline citations, I would be in favor of removing it completely. Four of the seven sentences start with, "This religion is represented by". It needs more variation that that. Also, keep in mind that the guidelines for notability apply to article "topics" not article "content". For content, policiies such as WP:NOT and WP:NPOV apply. Without citations, however, the content currently violates WP:V and can be removed accordingly. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion Practiced in Dayton as an Article Section 

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I have just added archive links to  on Dayton, Ohio. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110711090925/http://www.getmidwest.com/regionOverview/recognition.cfm?sectionID=ro&subNavID=12&subNav2ID=0 to http://www.getmidwest.com/regionOverview/recognition.cfm?sectionID=ro&subNavID=12&subNav2ID=0
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Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 22:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The 1st link wasn't archived; I reverted to dead link status. 2nd and 4th had to be reworked considerably. The 3rd was the only one that worked as found. Dhtwiki (talk) 15:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Dayton, Ohio. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110711090925/http://www.getmidwest.com/regionOverview/recognition.cfm?sectionID=ro&subNavID=12&subNav2ID=0 to http://www.getmidwest.com/regionOverview/recognition.cfm?sectionID=ro&subNavID=12&subNav2ID=0
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replies: text: After initial 302 error message, this link wound up pointing to a possibly useful page. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:52, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Nothing on Native American history, or anything prior its founding. Was it just hunting ground? A regular settlement? Which tribal area was it? How did the land change ownership, was it part of a treaties? How did the founders stake the claim? There is a lot of available history about pre-settlement Ohio. -- GreenC 23:15, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There is slight mention made of the first settlers' contact with native tribes. That could be expanded, but how much more would be appropriate in an article that is about a particular post-European-arrival settlement? Your post made me think of the Sun Watch Indians, whose museum I have seen. That might deserve a place in See Also, but maybe not. Such a settlement is getting far afield from discussing Dayton. Dhtwiki (talk) 02:55, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The Dayton area, and most of west Ohio, was believed to be occupied by the Miami people before the trail of tears Homeless Canadian (talk) 09:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct that the Miami people lived in Eastern Ohio as the name of the Miami River (and many place names) still retain this history. That being said, the Trail of Tears had exactly nothing to do with the tribes outside of the SE US. The Miami people were moved out of Ohio well before then and some still live in Indiana <https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Miami_Indians#:~:text=In%201818%2C%20the%20United%20States,permitted%20to%20remain%20in%20Indiana. Ckruschke (talk) 16:37, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Native American history 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Dayton, Ohio. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140627205533/http://www.cityofdayton.org/PressReleases/Documents/2010/Moody's%20Amends%20Dayton%20Bond%20Rating%20Under%20Global%20Scale%20System.pdf to http://www.cityofdayton.org/PressReleases/Documents/2010/Moody's%20Amends%20Dayton%20Bond%20Rating%20Under%20Global%20Scale%20System.pdf
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replies: text: PDF at link doesn't load for me. I will re-mark link as dead. Dhtwiki (talk) 20:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

text: PDF still doesn't display. Marking as "failed". Have already marked link as dead at article and placed cbignore template. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:06, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Dayton, Ohio. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110531210815/http://www.naco.org/Counties/Pages/FindACounty.aspx to http://www.naco.org/Counties/Pages/FindACounty.aspx
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.daytoncvb.com/helpful-resources/dayton-fast-facts-and-inventors/
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*Added  tag to http://www.daytonohio.gov
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://victoriatheatre.com/schuster_home/schuster_home.php
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.whiotv.com/news/19099838/detail.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
*http://www.daytoncvb.com/helpful-resources/dayton-fast-facts-and-inventors/
*http://www.webcitation.org/699nOulzi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.census.gov%2Fgeo%2Fwww%2Fgazetteer%2Ffiles%2FGaz_places_national.txt to http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/files/Gaz_places_national.txt
*http://www.daytonohio.gov [supposed to be dead link]
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*http://victoriatheatre.com/schuster_home/schuster_home.php [page not found]
*http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/ [page not found]
*http://www.whiotv.com/news/19099838/detail.html [page not found]
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:14, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Of those links that were supposed to work, only #2 and #3 actually did. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Dayton, Ohio. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5uRWp2Zfd?url=http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/citytown.jsp to http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/citytown.jsp
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replies: text: Most of the archived links work and lead to seemingly useful pages; but #1 seems useless, unless it works as an index page. Of the dead links marked, the first leads to a page but that page seems not very useful, and the second leads to "page not found", as expected. Dhtwiki (talk) 11:12, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Dayton, Ohio. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100613050718/http://cityofdayton.org/PressReleases/publications/Biz%20Bites/World%27s%20First%20RFID%20Incubator%20Established%20in%20Dayton.pdf to http://www.cityofdayton.org/PressReleases/publications/Biz%20Bites/World%27s%20First%20RFID%20Incubator%20Established%20in%20Dayton.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090517032302/http://ohio.privateschoolsreport.com/schools/OH/Dayton.html to http://ohio.privateschoolsreport.com/schools/OH/Dayton.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111113201523/http://www.nasm.si.edu/wrightbrothers/fly/1904/index.cfm to http://www.nasm.si.edu/wrightbrothers/fly/1904/index.cfm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Would it be okay with you all if I added a subsection to this article on the Newfield development? If I did, I would then create a redirect from the mention of Newfield in National Urban Policy and New Community Development Act of 1970#Title VII New Towns. Here is some background. I'd propose to put it in the Cityscape section. Novellasyes (talk) 17:33, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No issues here. Ckruschke (talk) 15:08, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I hope I didn't spend too much space on this! It's (to me) so interesting! Novellasyes (talk) 17:03, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Newfields? 

message: The following coordinate fixes are needed for
—2600:387:F:4A31:0:0:0:5 (talk) 11:18, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You haven't said what you think is wrong with the coordinates in the article. Those for the city (in the infobox and at the top of the article) appear to be correct, but I've made a slight adjustment in the coordinates of the Miami Conservancy District building (in note e). If you still think that there is an error, you'll need to provide a clear explanation of what it is. Deor (talk) 16:27, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coordinate error