Template talk:IIUS/Links

message: Why does the link to the Immigration reduction article keep getting removed? It covers the anti-illegal immigration movement. -Will Beback · † · 20:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Links

message: So I just went through all the links, and removed some bad ones, but I could really use help in every so often making sure each link has the template itself on that page. There were quite a few pages that did not this time - and it just gets kind of annoying for me to do it over and over. Appreciate it.danielfolsom© 02:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Making Sure Template is on the pages it links to

message: These organizations are connected to illegal immigration.  They are listed in the header under "Organizations", not "Political Action Groups".  Since they aren't listed under "Political Action Groups", the fact that they aren't political action groups is immmaterial.-75.179.159.240 18:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How are they connected to the topic of the template? -Will Beback · † · 18:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The topic of the template is "illegal immigration in the United States".  Both organizations are associated with it.  MS is one of the largest, if not the largest, organization organizing the practice of illegal immigration (coyotes, bounties on border patrol, violent attacks against civilian groups who patrol the border, etc.) and the NoA (with regards to its claim that the border itself is illegitimate and that the southern United States rightfully belongs to the Mexican people) is a large voice box for illegal immigration.-75.179.159.240 20:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: NoA is not especially noted as a "voice box" for illegal immigration. There are a dozen other Hispanic organizations that would make more sense to add than NoA. Do you have a source for the NOA being a principle "voice box"? And what's your source for your assertion about MS 13? -Will Beback · † · 20:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as the MS13 /Mara Salvatrucha stuff go - personally I'm really uncomfortable listing gangs on this template. Can we just put Gangs under the heading Issues?danielfolsom© 05:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

text: As to NoA - from what I read (haha, meaning just the intro - it's late) - it's not even related to Illegal immigration - it's stated goal was to force the us to give back the countries gained in the war.danielfolsom© 05:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are fringe and even illegal groups on the "right wing", such as the KKK, who oppose illegal immigration but I don't think those belong in this template either. Let's keep this list of organizations limited to legitimate groups that make immigration their chief concern. -Will Beback · † · 21:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I completely agree with that - again, I too am uncomfortable listing gangs or groups such as the kkk. Great wording Mr. Bebackdanielfolsom© 02:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: MS 13 definitely has a strong connection with illegal immigration.  The kkk may be against illegal immigration, but it doesn't go around killing illegal immigrants for being illegal immigrants (at least I know of no neutral third party source which says they have).  There are neutral third party sources (i.e. the Washington Times) which says that MS 13 has essentially declared war against the US Border Patrol and that they have a strong illegal immigration activity.-198.97.67.59 16:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there's a consensus to support those additions. If you'd like to hold an RfC perhaps it would change the outcome. -Will Beback · † · 19:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (PS: It would be easier to communicate if you'd log in and user your user name.) -Will Beback · † · 19:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Washington Times is hardly a neutral source, but regardless, putting ms thirteen on here would be like putting timothy mcveigh on a tempalte about christianity - everyone would freak. If you consider it absolutely neccessary, again, I'm fine with putting gang violence under the issues - because MS 13, while certainly the most publicized, is hardly a unique gang, so putting gangs under the issues covers all the territory. I really agree with Mr. Beback here, there really seems to be no support besides your own.danielfolsom© 22:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We're discussing the issue here.  That's good.  The Washington Times is more neutral than the SPLC - a source which is listed in many of these articles.  The Washington Times does not have a history, documented by multiple third parties, of playing the kinds of games the SPLC does.  I've scrolled over these various articles about different immigration reduction groups in the template and I see that the fact that many of them have been identified as hate grops by the SPLC appears (and that Mr BeBack is the one who added that accusation).  To let that stand but remove the fact that MS 13 is heavily involved in illegal immigraton is pushing a double standard in my opinion.  [Gang Violence] does not discuss the close relationship that MS 13 (or any gang for that matter) has with illegal immigration.  So, putting Gang Violence in the template doesn't make any sense - the relationship is unclear.-75.179.159.240 00:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: <-- I don't see what the "hate group" designation by the SPLC has to do with this topic. We don't have a "hate group" template that we to which we add links to articles. Furher, adding info to an article is very different from adding a link to a template, where there can be no attribution or NPOVing. All in all, they are not comparable.  -Will Beback · † · 01:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I was just making a note about the times, but that's not the point. No one is about to put 300 gangs in here, so really why don't you add the conection of immigrants to gangs and we'll go from there. Again, there seems to be no one supporting the idea except you. I'm going to go ahead and remove the iius template from MS13danielfolsom© 02:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that linking it to gangs is inappropriate as the ambiguous 'gangs' is not actively involved in attacking border agents and organizing illegal immigration.  MS 13 is.  I realize that there are three people discussing this issue and only one of them is for putting MS 13 in the template.  I'm not going to edit war with you.  However, I am going to try to maintain discussion on this issue until I understand why something whose connection is clearly detailed (ie. MS 13) is being replaced with something whose connection isn't clear at all (ie. gangs).-198.97.67.59 11:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Gangs would be the alternative - personally I think we shouldn't put anything - however you yourself could add things to gangs about illegal immigration and then we could add it. Again, Mr Beback and I (beback a bit more fluently) listed reasons why not to add it - since your the only person that supports this - it won't be added to the template.danielfolsom© 11:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, the connection between MS 13 and illegal immigration is already clear - there are four citations in that article which cover the material.  You are rejecting all of them and, instead, want me to find new material that is about gangs in general and their connection to illegal immigration because you believe, for reasons you haven't supported at all, that gangs, in general, are a better fit on the subject??  Frankly, I know of no citations which state that gangs, in general, have declared a general bounty on border agents and civilian border patrol or citations which state that gangs, in general, are organizing human traffic (i.e. coyotes) over the border.  If you want to expand the link beyond MS 13 to gangs, if you are going to make the assertion that 'gangs' rather than 'MS 13' is the more appropriate link, then it is up to -you- to defend your assertion.  Now, as I said, I am not going to edit war with you.  So there aren't a lot of options left open to me.  Still, I think, at the very least, you owe it to the discussion board to offer a defensible argument for your position.-75.179.159.240 13:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Here's the RfC I plan to submit.  Please add your side to the 'statements' section.-75.179.159.240 14:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've said this a number of times, but again, I think it's best if we include neither - i said if you absolutely insist on putting a gang in, then we should just link to gangs and I suggested you add a section on illegal immigration so we could do that.danielfolsom© 20:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this user, "PH" for lack of a better name, wants to include MS13 because he feels they're involvemed in illegal immigration. Much the same argument could be made for including major employers, such as Tyson Foods, who reportedly have solicited potential employees to enter the country and then hired them illegally. So if we're going to include a "gangs" section then we should also include an "employers" section too. -Will Beback · † · 20:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: MS 13 and Nation of Aztlan