Talk:Stó꞉lō

message: There are emerging guidelines within the Indigenous peoples WikiProject that I have begun to apply across the board for BC First Nations.  The main one is that there are different types of articles, even when their content and location/people may seem to overlap (I'll sign each section/paragraph so comments on specific points can be made easily: Skookum1 05:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: which this article, as titled, would fit into.  These articles get :Category:First Nations in British Columbia, with "First Nation" here meant in an ethnic sense, not in a governmental-org one.  Ideally these will always be simply named, without "Nation" appended, as with Secwepemc and Nuu-chah-nulth - or Stó:lō  (variable forms like Nuu-chah-nulth-aht can be redirects, although that term can include the Pacheedaht which normally wouldn't want to be called Nuu-chah-nulth).Skookum1 05:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: bands/First Nations, tribal councils, treaty groups) which have government-related content, ranging from chiefs and councillors, affiliations, treaty issues, modern demographics, economic and social issues, and so on  These articles get :Category:First Nations governments in British Columbia.  In the case of the Stó:lō the main government article is going to be (created in a few minutes...): Stó:lō Nation, and will list all its subgovernments; "Indian Band" and "First Nation", sometimes just "Nation" are all interchangeable, although some bands seem to have a preference (at different times, given by variable content on various website sources); whatever is picked.  Non-Indian Act-based governments can be and should described under different titles, either in the ethno type or in the history type (see below)Skookum1 05:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

text: 'nuff said, but can be titled either in native language (St'at'imcets) or in the form Shuswap language; Wiki guidelines, it should be stressed, prefer the latter (use English, which is the language of the encyclopedia...).  Some ethno and gov articles will have more than one language listed in their cats; some languages span more than one gov group, or in the case of the Sto:lo and Chehalis, two different ones.  Cats for this are specialized in the linguistics hierarchy (examples later), but they should generally all take the relevant nation-category if there is one :Category:Secwepemc, :Category:Stó:lō, :Category:Syilx etc.Skookum1 05:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Content issues

message: Not as loose as it sounds, despite having to describe it like this: "ethno/history/culture/peoples"
::which this article, as titled, would fit into.  These articles get :Category:First Nations in British Columbia, with "First Nation" here meant in an ethnic sense, not in a governmental-org one.  Ideally these will always be simply named, without "Nation" appended, as with Secwepemc and Nuu-chah-nulth - or Stó:lō  (variable forms like Nuu-chah-nulth-aht can be redirects, although that term can include the Pacheedaht which normally wouldn't want to be called Nuu-chah-nulth).Skookum1 05:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Ethno & Culture" articles

message: ::bands/First Nations, tribal councils, treaty groups) which have government-related content, ranging from chiefs and councillors, affiliations, treaty issues, modern demographics, economic and social issues, and so on  These articles get :Category:First Nations governments in British Columbia.  In the case of the Stó:lō the main government article is going to be (created in a few minutes...): Stó:lō Nation, and will list all its subgovernments; "Indian Band" and "First Nation", sometimes just "Nation" are all interchangeable, although some bands seem to have a preference (at different times, given by variable content on various website sources); whatever is picked.  Non-Indian Act-based governments can be and should described under different titles, either in the ethno type or in the history type (see below)Skookum1 05:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Government articles

message: ::'nuff said, but can be titled either in native language (St'at'imcets) or in the form Shuswap language; Wiki guidelines, it should be stressed, prefer the latter (use English, which is the language of the encyclopedia...).  Some ethno and gov articles will have more than one language listed in their cats; some languages span more than one gov group, or in the case of the Sto:lo and Chehalis, two different ones.  Cats for this are specialized in the linguistics hierarchy (examples later), but they should generally all take the relevant nation-category if there is one :Category:Secwepemc, :Category:Stó:lō, :Category:Syilx etc.Skookum1 05:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: language articles

message: Communities, reserves/IRs, towns that have significant native presence also; there is a difference, note, between the physical object of a reserve, and the band government that runs it; the descrption of the reserve is here, that of the government; even though this will not just overlap with the government articles but also the ethno/peoples ones; just interlink everything and it will sort of make sense; it's just a question of what was being searched for; the Scw'exmx and Spaxomin bands are all listed under Nicola Tribal Association, for instance; but the latter article is about the association, not about the communities; similarly, Shackan and Nooaitch are communities as well as reserves, but articles about them should focus on the community's particular history, not on overall Scw'exmx culture.  In the case of the Sto:lo, there is another issue of "where to fit the Chehalis" as they are in the same cultural/language area, but they are not Sto:lo by organization or by their own appellation.  Or the Tsleil-wau-tuth who are culturally Skxwxu7mesh but are part of the Sto:lo Nation (or were, last time I looked); so there's some confusing bits here and there.Skookum1 05:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Community/Reserve articles

message: User:OldManRivers has pointed out the "mythology" articles and the cats that go with them; awkward wording/titling but in the absence of anything more workable, that's all there is for now.  Discussion of this more later after I look around and see what there is.Skookum1 05:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Mythology" articles

message: there is another sort-of category for specific history articles, e.g. Chilcotin War, Fraser Canyon War and various bio articles (Simon Gunanoot, Slumach, Klattasine etc.) where :Category:First Nations history would be appropriate as well as either :Category:First Nations leaders or :Category:First Nations people; there's also different cats like :Category:Conflicts in Canada which may apply, or :Category:Wars involving the indigenous peoples of North America , which was specifically titled to allow inter-native wars as well as wars between native peoples and non-natives; and without the "Native American" wording that that category at one time had (changed thanks, in part, to insistence on finding a more suitable term stirred up by yours truly....).  I haven't looked but I suspect there's probably a special legal case/law category for things like Delgamuukw v. Regina (note: Delgamuukw by itself, currently a redirect to the court case, should technically be about that particular chiefly lineage of the Gitxsan and its territory.
Note::Category:First Nations is "top level" and is not ordinarly included with anything that's a subcategory of it, or a subcategory of one of its subcategories, which is any other category (usually) beginning with "First Nations" in its name.Skookum1 05:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: History/Biography articles

message: I'm adding a bunch of stuff from Carlson's book. I don't know much about the subject, so a lot of this could be outdated garbage, but I figured it would be more likely for people to fix something bad than for them to write original prose themselves. Hopefully this will inspire people to add, expand and correct errors. - TheMightyQuill 10:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additions

message: No time to add this, and there's more news copy on it out there: I remember something in either the Sun or teh Straight, but posting this link here for later ref on T'xwelatse, the ancient ancestor-statue that was recently repatriated to Chilliwack from wherever in the US it had wound up.Skookum1 06:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[T'xwelatse]]

message: This is a recurrent problem as not all Halkomelem-"speaking" of either Upriver or Downriver dialects (Halqemeylem and Hunquminum) consider themselves Stó:lō, which is derived from the name of the Stó:lō Nation Tribal Council; mostly this is the Sts'Ailes but also, so far as I am aware, the Yale, Katzie, Kwantlen and other bands.  "Fraser River Salish" was one proposed term, but I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the suitability of "Salish" is its origin is from the Flathead language; its nearest equivalent in a local language is the -mish ending on Skwxwu7mesh or Skokomish, meaning "people".  Stó:lō is just the name of the Fraser River, not of an ethnicity (though, as noted, it's becoming standard for that); in Halqemeylem it's gonna be more like Stó:lō'mes - which might be acceptable as it simply means "people(s) of the Fraser River"...perhaps one reason the Chehalis/Sts'Ailes don't use it is they're not on the Fraser River...??  Anyway, anyone editing this page should bear in mind that its component communities constitute a larger group than those of the Stó:lō Nation, who are "Stó:lō proper".Skookum1 06:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Who are Stó:lō?

message: I'm not sure why the page was moved here, but if it's going to stay, we need to fix a lot of double-redirects, not to mention usage within the article itself. - TheMightyQuill 01:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a late followup, but I've added this and its cat to Requested Moves and Mergers on the Canada Wikiproject jsut now.  Either this article reverts back to Stó:lõ, which is teh diacritical spelling used in the category name, or the diacriticals should be removed altogether; Sḵwx̱wú7mesh is affected by such a decision and even there a name change made taht /w_/ different from a previous version, and the cat got changed back from the one like the title to the previous but still-diacriticalised one).; AFAIK the first article/cat to use diacriticals in BC was the one for the Nuxalk.  But this title is ridiculous - a special colon???  Bad enough that thte colon is not normally a phonene in English spellings of any kind; but a special colon??  Nope, especially when the catname uses the regular one.  Properly, in Halqemeylem, "Stó:lõ" only means "river" (inferring the Fraser River) and "something like "Stó:lõ'mesh" would mean the people(s) ,but the convention is standalone "Stó:lõ"....but usually without the accent on the first /o/ or the super-line on the second.  Fine for an article name, rotten to have to use as a catname.Skookum1 (talk) 17:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Stó:lõ'mesh" is not an actual word. The mesh ending doesn't apply to all Coast Salish languages, and by extension, doesn't include Halkomelem. Just FYI. :) OldManRivers (talk) 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, I know, I just fielded it as "something like" - I don't know the "people" ending in Halqeymeylem - /-em/ maybe?  Most or all Fraser Valley people-names don't seem to have it - Kwantlen, Katzie, Mstsqui, etc etc; I wasn't expecting it to be -mesh, just used it by way of comparison with Skwxwu7mesh (and Skokomish, Duwamish etc).Skookum1 (talk) 20:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

text: All of this would be greatly helped if First Nations politicians and re-educators/ideologues wouldn't make a big deal about imposing special spellings/orthographies on the English language; too late to stop the trend, but at some piont here in Wikipedia we've got to draw the line and stick with usable characters, not obscure ones preferred/invented by linguists and politicians.Skookum1 (talk) 17:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't there other languages that do the same thing in Wikipedia though?  Like European languages and such?  From my understanding, the special spellings/orthographies are created as a way to write what was/is an oral language with no written form.  If we tried to write these languages by spelling it out with the English phonetic alphabet, we would get 10 different interpretations. (Skokomish, Skwkwomesh, Sqwoh-kwo-mesh, Sqomic, ect.)  It's unfortunate that there's such a wide array of phonetics alphabets used across such small distances (would of been easier for uniform spelling.  Or at least, that's the idea I guess...haha).  Don't get me wrong; I'm not arguing with you.  Merely just posing a question of whether there is a reason for it all. OldManRivers (talk) 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What I don't understand about he linguistics community is how they could ignore the obvious phonological reality of the sprachbund, in which Wakashan and Coast Salish and Tsimshianic and even nearby Athapaskan languages share a common phoneme-pool, why a standard "cross-platform" adaptation of Roman characters was not come up with; and I can tell you straight out that St'at'imc was intentionally created to be "less English" than Stl'atl'imx (of all things), and the latter spelling remains preferred by some groups.  The result is that "uneducated white people" wind up trying to say "Sta-tim-c" instead of "Stlatliumh" (which is how it's actually said).  Sto:lo with diacriticals would make sense if those diacriticals meant anything to English readers; they don't; but the umlaut-U, c-cedilla and other "standard European diacriticals" ARE recognizable to most (nearly-educated) English readers; other European characters (as below) are not.....Skookum1 (talk) 20:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undiscussed page move... 

message: I know that "they were egalitarian...etc." is in various textbooks and fluff-pieces, but it's just not true.  What else were si:yam (nobles) and commoners and slaves?  Waht kind of poppycock is being taught in academia anyway?  Citing incorrect sources does not make for good encyclopedism; uncritical placement of "dimestore ethnography" is not appropriate; also in the dimestore category is the loosey-goosey use of "Sto:lo Nation" especially with capital-N, as if it were a synonym for Sto:lo, which it's not.  Also Sto:lo as a political designation includes the non-Fraser Tsleil-wau-tuth who aren't "ethnically Sto:lo" as wella ss teh remnants of teh slave-people Kway-quiht-lums (see the BCGNIS for Coquitlam).  The Chehalis are also NOT Sto:lo, though in popular (mis-)conception they are treated that way.  the Katzie-Kwantlent(-Kwa-quiht0-lum) relationship shoudl be explained and also the at-one-time unity of the Chilliwhyeuk, now broken up into a myriad of bands and also fractured between two tribal councils.  The misconception presented by dimestore ethnographers is that this is a unified people, with a common history; they're not, it's not, and pretending it is is synthesis; it may be citable synthesis, but it's sitll syntehsis, as well as wrong.Skookum1 (talk) 16:40, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Dimestore ethnograpy

message: The lead is in present tense. The article slips into past, then returns to present. If anyone cares, please fix.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's describing an existing culture, and its history. It makes sense to me that both present and past tense are used. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 05:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tense 

message: * This article will have access trouble if anyone sets up a new language wikipedia with language code Sto:. (This happened with the pop musician Ki:Theory, as the article link Ki:Theory means "page Theory on the Kikuyu Wikipedia".) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colon trouble? 

message: I was recently informed by User:OldManRivers that the Kwantlen, Katzie and Kwikwetlem language is the Downriver dialect; don't have a cite for that, just commenting as I'd noticed some of the recent IP changes.Skookum1 (talk) 07:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Also Hunquminum/Downriver dialect 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chipewyan people which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 09:14, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Move discussion in progress

message: Substituted at 07:06, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Sto:lo. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070718061334/http://home.istar.ca:80/~bthom/LONGTERM-FIN.htm to http://home.istar.ca/~bthom/LONGTERM-FIN.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:44, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified