Talk:2006 FIFA World Cup/Archive 5

message: Brilliant work on a fantastic set of articles! Well presented, always updated. So much voluntary work by so many people. A showcase for Wikipedia's collaborative methods. Awesome! --Dumbo1 23:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massive Thanks and Request for Award (what and to who?)  

message: I just wanted to mention this here before I start doing it - the detail of the matches is to be moved to the 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A etc. pages, with only result summaries here.  The group sections will look like this:
====Group A====
Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A
Team                                       	Pts                                        	Pld                                        	W                                          	D                                          	L                                          	GF                                         	GA                                         	GD
                                           	9                                          	3                                          	3                                          	0                                          	0                                          	8                                          	2                                          	+6
                                           	6                                          	3                                          	2                                          	0                                          	1                                          	5                                          	3                                          	+2
                                           	3                                          	3                                          	1                                          	0                                          	2                                          	2                                          	4                                          	−2
                                           	0                                          	3                                          	0                                          	0                                          	3                                          	3                                          	9                                          	−6
This was discussed at Talk:2006 FIFA World Cup/Archive 4#Sandbox for redesigned Group section (post first round) with virtually no opposition.  (Note: I have made VERY minor layout changes to the example shown there.) -- Chuq 05:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the vote was 4-2 in favor of changing it. I wouldn't call that "virtually no opposition," though. Ian Manka Talk to me! 05:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There were a few more positive votes *above* the sample Group A table on other talk page ;)  Anyway, I have created a template :Template:FWCMatchSummaryLine to make it easier, you can see it in action at User:Chuq/Sandbox/Group. -- Chuq 06:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You may add my against vote to that tally. └ VodkaJazz / talk ┐ 11:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't so much a tally of yes vs no, it is more of a discussion.  What do you think could improve the design? -- Chuq
Personally, I think the above set-up needs to be used on the Groups pages as well. You could start by using it there, and then seeing if people like it enough to use it here. At the moment, when you load a page, say for Group A, you have to scroll a long way down to see the results, and they are not all grouped together. Similarly, for the current World Cup article, you have to scroll a long way down to get to the "Round of 16". I'll add a link in the introduction. Carcharoth 12:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: PS. I'd also add times to the date column. Carcharoth 12:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The intention is to move the current detailed match reports (ie. the grey shaded boxes below each points table) to the top of each Group article (under the points table as it is here), and the main article only has the group table and the summaries (as seen on User:Chuq/Sandbox/Group).  There isn't much point duplicating the tables on both.  An advantage of this is that as the group sections on the main article will be shorter, you won't need to scroll down as far to reach the "Round of 16" games. -- Chuq 12:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your layout, but the argument about scrolling down doesn't really hold water. You should really either provide a link in the introduction (which I have done) or click on the link from the Table of Contents. Also, be careful about saying that putting the table on both pages is pointless. You don't want to force people to click back and forth between articles to see the table. I would say that both pages need the table, but only the table and results should be on the main article page. Remember that the groups and group articles are daughter articles of this article, and the relevant sections here that link to those articles need to summarise those articles, not just link to them. Then people have the choice to either read the summary, or click through to the more detailed article. If you don't provide the table, you are forcing people to click through to another article. Remember that this article should, eventually, be a one-stop place for people to read about this World Cup. The daughter articles should only expand on stuff mentioned here. More distant articles should be accessed through a navbox, like the one at the bottom at the moment (though hopefully that will be moved up to the top of the article after the tournament has finished). Carcharoth 13:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we do change the main World Cup page not to include all matches (and I agree we should), maybe we could adapt your format to look like the Greek Wikipedia's. I think their layout is very aesthetically pleasing, and the smaller font reduces the vertical space they take up - and I think the different shadings add something as well.--Moszczynski 14:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to say - I really like the Greek layout! -- Chuq 02:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: you may also count me against changing the current layout.  The Greek page that was linked in my opinion looks too much like a statistics box.  I like the current lay out, it's consistent across the board with the other World Cup articles, adding or changing the layout won't add anything to the article.  Then there's the theory of leaving well enough alone, the article as is serves its purpose very well and there's no need to continuously tweak it just because we can. Batman2005 17:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am for the new layout. Some people just want to be able to open the page and look at the scores, and click on links if detailed match info is needed. ChaChaFut 18:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Um....its my understanding and by looking at the page i'm correct, that as is...you CAN open the page and look at scores, then if you want you can click on a link and find more detailed match info. Batman2005 21:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Greek format's amazing! Any efforts for this article to get to a similiar format would be great. Also, Chug, I'd recommend centering the numbers in your sandbox tables ;) Ian Manka Talk to me! 17:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortening group section 

message: Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A	Full details: 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group A
Team                                       	Pts                                        	Pld                                        	W                                          	D                                          	L                                          	GF                                         	GA                                         	GD
                                           	9                                          	3                                          	3                                          	0                                          	0                                          	8                                          	2                                          	+6
                                           	6                                          	3                                          	2                                          	0                                          	1                                          	5                                          	3                                          	+2
                                           	3                                          	3                                          	1                                          	0                                          	2                                          	2                                          	4                                          	−2
                                           	0                                          	3                                          	0                                          	0                                          	3                                          	3                                          	9                                          	−6
This was discussed at Talk:2006 FIFA World Cup/Archive 4#Sandbox for redesigned Group section (post first round) with virtually no opposition.  (Note: I have made VERY minor layout changes to the example shown there.) -- Chuq 05:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the vote was 4-2 in favor of changing it. I wouldn't call that "virtually no opposition," though. Ian Manka Talk to me! 05:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There were a few more positive votes *above* the sample Group A table on other talk page ;)  Anyway, I have created a template :Template:FWCMatchSummaryLine to make it easier, you can see it in action at User:Chuq/Sandbox/Group. -- Chuq 06:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You may add my against vote to that tally. └ VodkaJazz / talk ┐ 11:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't so much a tally of yes vs no, it is more of a discussion.  What do you think could improve the design? -- Chuq
Personally, I think the above set-up needs to be used on the Groups pages as well. You could start by using it there, and then seeing if people like it enough to use it here. At the moment, when you load a page, say for Group A, you have to scroll a long way down to see the results, and they are not all grouped together. Similarly, for the current World Cup article, you have to scroll a long way down to get to the "Round of 16". I'll add a link in the introduction. Carcharoth 12:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: PS. I'd also add times to the date column. Carcharoth 12:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The intention is to move the current detailed match reports (ie. the grey shaded boxes below each points table) to the top of each Group article (under the points table as it is here), and the main article only has the group table and the summaries (as seen on User:Chuq/Sandbox/Group).  There isn't much point duplicating the tables on both.  An advantage of this is that as the group sections on the main article will be shorter, you won't need to scroll down as far to reach the "Round of 16" games. -- Chuq 12:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your layout, but the argument about scrolling down doesn't really hold water. You should really either provide a link in the introduction (which I have done) or click on the link from the Table of Contents. Also, be careful about saying that putting the table on both pages is pointless. You don't want to force people to click back and forth between articles to see the table. I would say that both pages need the table, but only the table and results should be on the main article page. Remember that the groups and group articles are daughter articles of this article, and the relevant sections here that link to those articles need to summarise those articles, not just link to them. Then people have the choice to either read the summary, or click through to the more detailed article. If you don't provide the table, you are forcing people to click through to another article. Remember that this article should, eventually, be a one-stop place for people to read about this World Cup. The daughter articles should only expand on stuff mentioned here. More distant articles should be accessed through a navbox, like the one at the bottom at the moment (though hopefully that will be moved up to the top of the article after the tournament has finished). Carcharoth 13:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If we do change the main World Cup page not to include all matches (and I agree we should), maybe we could adapt your format to look like the Greek Wikipedia's. I think their layout is very aesthetically pleasing, and the smaller font reduces the vertical space they take up - and I think the different shadings add something as well.--Moszczynski 14:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to say - I really like the Greek layout! -- Chuq 02:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: you may also count me against changing the current layout.  The Greek page that was linked in my opinion looks too much like a statistics box.  I like the current lay out, it's consistent across the board with the other World Cup articles, adding or changing the layout won't add anything to the article.  Then there's the theory of leaving well enough alone, the article as is serves its purpose very well and there's no need to continuously tweak it just because we can. Batman2005 17:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am for the new layout. Some people just want to be able to open the page and look at the scores, and click on links if detailed match info is needed. ChaChaFut 18:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Um....its my understanding and by looking at the page i'm correct, that as is...you CAN open the page and look at scores, then if you want you can click on a link and find more detailed match info. Batman2005 21:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Greek format's amazing! Any efforts for this article to get to a similiar format would be great. Also, Chug, I'd recommend centering the numbers in your sandbox tables ;) Ian Manka Talk to me! 17:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Group A

message: I mentioned this earlier - but I don't think I've ever heard the term "Round of 16" before. The other night Gary Lineker on the BBC coverage said something like - "So France are now through to what the American's annoyingly call the 'Round of 16'." - and in The Guardian on Thursday, Nicky Campbell wrote "CNN is ever-present in German hotels and guest houses and it is terrible. Most galling are its British journalists who adhere to company policy, spewing out guff like "a one to nothing victory", "the opening half", and "scoreless tie". And, worst of all - "the round of 16". I don't care what anyone else says, I yearn for Motty". Jooler 08:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - no offence to any Americans reading this, but why should we take a name from them, when they think football is a game played with hands. Simply call it the second round.--Tivedshambo (talk) 09:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Stylistically, I agree too. Unfortunately, FIFA calls it this , and it is their tournament. For the same reason, "quarter-final" and "semi-final" are the preferred spellings here. Americans seem to prefer to omit the hyphen but clearly we should be guided by how FIFA writes. HTH --Guinnog 10:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FIFA's international nature means that they have a habit of mangling the English language. It's their tournament, but it's our encyclopaedia. What they call simulation, we have at diving (football). I'm just wondering if "Round of 16" was used before this tournament, or whether it's got something to do with the current sponsors. I've tried to look up FIFA's pages on the Internet Archive for 2002 but with no luck. Jooler 10:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I seem to recall the Round of 16 being so-called since 1986 when it was introduced to the tournament. Certainly the relevant Wikipedia articles seem to reflect this useage. --Guinnog 10:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: PS. I forgot to mention that this use of second and first stage, and second round of the first stage and second round of the second stage, means that calling the Round of 16 the "second round" could be confusing. Similarly for calling the group stage the "first round", as it is technically a series of  round-robin rounds, as opposed to a knock-out round. This might explain the need to avoid "2nd round" terminology (though I am as guilty as anyone of calling the "Last 16/Round of 16" the second round). Carcharoth 11:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: "Eighth-finals would be the British equivalent" - no. Second round or last 16, as per BBC website Jooler 12:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: But it's just not what I or proobably most people who have followed the World Cup over the years are used to. We don't say "round of 8" or "round of 4" and I don't recall "round of 16" being used either. Jooler 12:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think "Last 16" is a fairly common expression. It is certainly the one that I use. but the important thing is not to argue over which we should use, but to consistently use one of these terms and to mention and explain ALL the terms. Carcharoth 12:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Who gives a shit what its called?  Honestly there are probably more important issues to deal with other than "Round of 16," "Last 16," "Second Round," etc.  Look at the FIFA page, see what they call it and call it that.  Goodness, its not that difficult to figure out. Batman2005 17:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously the people discussing this topic give a shit, sir. And if you bothered to read the discussion, you would see it is not that easy either. I support Carcharoth's views of mentioning the other terms. PHF 17:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: We don't say "round of 8" or "round of 4" because they already have special names (quarterfinals and semifinals respectively). Kiwi8 18:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, PHF, I did read the entire conversation, and easily came to the decision that calling it whatever FIFA calls it would probably be the best choice, since you know...it is the FIFA World Cup...perhaps they should be allowed to call it whatever they want.  If you guys wanna disagree and call it something else just because some writers or commentators call it something else in other countries, then start the Wikipedia World Cup and ya'll can argue about what to call it.  Until then, just look at the damn FIFA webpage, figure out what they call it and get on with it. Again, not difficult, too many people here try to over complicate the pages when simply looking at this page  shows that FIFA calls it the Round of 16.  WOW, MY GOD THAT WAS HARD. Seem the "American's annoyingly calling it the 'Round of 16" might just be doing so because FIFA also calls it that.  Hmmm? Batman2005 21:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What authority does FIFA have on the vocabulary the world uses and why is it that we should use only the vocabulary used by the organizers of some event? My point is that the language used should be the most informative and user friendly as possible, and FIFA doesn't necessarily have the last word. I never directed anything or even mentioned americans in my previous edit, so that's a straw man argument. I would also like to advise to keep this conversation clean, I dont come here to find "gives a shit" and "damn webpage" and sarcasm in a discussion, makes it hard to assume good faith. PHF 23:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, like I said, FIFA does organize the World Cup, therefore if they want to call it the "Round of teams that were better than the rest of the other teams in their groups" it would need to be listed as such on here, because...it's their World Cup, not yours or the editors herein.  The bit about the Americans was to the guy who started the thread in the first place. As for assuming good faith, its not my problem if you have difficulty assuming good faith based on swear words, Wikipedia isn't censored for the faint of heart or for the conservatives who don't like swearing. Batman2005 00:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, they are FIFA.  You know, the organizers of the tournament.  Sure, I agree, we don't necessarily have to use FIFA's terminology for anything which applies to the game of football.  But it does make sense that when we are referring to some part of a FIFA tournament, we use FIFA's terminology. But, even ignoring that, how on earth is "Round of 16" anything but informative and user-friendly?  -- Deville (Talk) 23:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I was quoting Gary Lineker. As I said I don't think I've ever heard the term used before, it's certainly not common in the UK  and I still wonder whether it was used before, but can't find the right pages on the Internet Archive. Jooler 22:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Useless comment of the day: here in Argentina and all the spanish speaking countries it's "octavos de final" (literally "eighth finals", as "cuartos de final" are "quarter finals") and there is no official mentioning of this at FIFA. But it's "octavos de final", no matter what, since "second round" was the name given to the second league played before the world cup turned to be a league+tournament, in 1986. --Yago Stecher 22:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps we're looking at different pages, but if you go here you'll see that FIFA does call it "octavos de final". --Deville (Talk) 22:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't like the term, but I looked up the FIFA site after I posted my comment above, and realised that it was the official name. Therefore this should be the title Wikipedia uses. --Tivedshambo (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I do have to say that the mistake was a bit understandable, however, since Castro had made contact right before the whistle, and Torrado was clearly away from the ball, so if someone thought the booking was for contact then it was reasonable to think the wrong player was booked.  The (Spanish-language) commentators in the States made the same mistake, although they didn't make such a big deal about it...:) --Deville (Talk) 22:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's funny. :-) Other commentators making the same mistake. I wouldn't have minded so much, but the commentary I heard was accompanying a replay that actually showed Torrado kicking the ball away. I guess that the commentators were looking at Castro and the Argentina player lying on the ground, rather then (shock, horror!) looking at the player who was booked and maybe seeing what he did wrong. </sarcasm>. Carcharoth 23:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: shock and horror indeed.  Again, to be fair to the commentators, I would guess that they typically are not seeing all of the same replays which are being shown on the screen, so perhaps, you know, they say contact, saw that there was a foul, and instinctively assumed the foul involved the players making contact.  Well, you know, always trying to cut them some slack...:P -- Deville (Talk) 01:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, I've always wondered exactly what the rules, or guidelines, are for scorers in this situation.  I've actually looked at the FIFA site, but for some reason I can't find any information on this.  (BTW, the FIFA site is excellent for actual rules of play, but they don't seem to have delineated the details of how to score things like this.)  -- Deville (Talk) 01:21, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Round of 16 

message: I may have been wrong, but didn't we agree that for the Knockout stages map, we can keep the participants of the group in the group stage so that we know at a glance a knockout qualifier came from? Kiwi8 12:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. But I don't have particularly strong views either way. I think there should be three such diagrams: one for the overall tournament, where the group order (1, 2, 3, 4) is shown, plus the knockout stage; one just for the group stage; and one just for the knockout stage. There should also be a chronological list of all the matches somewhere, with all other information stripped away. A lot of these presentations will use the same information, but the different layouts have different purposes, so they are all needed and are not redundant. Carcharoth 12:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Group teams removed in the map? 

message: Please, do not update the Knockout stage table before the end of the matches. It makes no sense and can be misleading, especially if someone doesn't know that the match is still being played. Afonso Silva 17:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Early updates

message: What is the difference between these two? when rendered it looks like that, ANGf is shown as Portugal.
24.5.19.13 17:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The flag icon appears to the right of the country name in the f2 templates, to the left in the f templates. -- Arwel (talk) 20:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: See for yourself: ANGf2=Angola  and ANGf=. sikander 20:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ANGf2 vs ANGf

message: I know this has been thoroughly discussed, but the article just has to be at least semi-protected during games and for several hours after them.  The vandalism and early updates are just out of control.  There are many good contributors, but there are lots of people trying to update the same statistics creating conflicts. Phoenix2 21:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Protection of any front page article is strongly discouraged and we're probably just going have to live with it. Certainly any protection lasting around two hours would be unwarranted unless the article was under attack from IP hopping vandals. That said, I did come close to semi protecting it after the end of the last match. I blocked one of the vandals and things started to calm down, so I decided against it. --GraemeL (talk) 21:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All righ, thanks for the reply. Phoenix2 22:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Unfortunatly there isn't. Protection is only available at the level of the whole article. --GraemeL (talk) 22:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Semi-protection of the templates would also be an option - this limits editing to logged in users who's accounts are more than a few days old. -- Chuq 02:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-Protection 

message: Titanic (magazine)#Football World Cup 2006 Bribery Affair
The longer german article :de:Wie Titanic einmal die Fußball-WM 2006 nach Deutschland holte.
Trans(I hope :): How take Titanic once the world cup 2006 to germany.--LaWa 00:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Little story from July 6, 2000 

message: I noticed a new logo being purportedly sported by FIFA for the '06 world cup. Whomever made and published the ridiculous graphic of a Microsoft Paint created swastika kicking an oblong blur should 1. work on their wit and candor to attempt to offend someone, 2. be banned from wikipedia for vandalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Martjoseph (talk • contribs) .
:The image was uploaded by a vandalism-only account and therefore was speedy deleted. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distasteful vandalism 

message: One thing I noticed for the matchups in the knockout stages that while it reveals where the game is being played the link is to the location, not the stadium. Is it alright to change the links to saying Berlin instead of Berlin. --Lummie 09:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I agree with that. Mitch119 11:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Knockout stage link names 

message: For those who are paying attention to World Cup on TV, dont the soccer fields look smaller now in the Group of 16 games than they did in the first round of 32?  The players are so close together and one can see both flanks of the filed in one screen shot.  Does anyone know why or can anyone explain?--Xlegiofalco 15:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny, I saw 44 players in yesterday's match... wait, that might be because I was drunk ;-) Seriously tough, I don't think there is notable difference between any two of the world cup fields in use, as pitch dimensions in the world cup are strictly regulated by the FIFA and they all have to be pretty much the same. ChaChaFut 15:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please be WP:CIVIL. Ian Manka Talk to me! 18:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It is possible to change the pitch dimensions, although I think it would be unlikely.   SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  18:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unlikely and against the FIFA regulations for the tournament which describe precisely the exact size the pitch has to be so that one team cannot claim that a larger or smaller pitch was disadvantageous to their team. Batman2005 18:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know every pitch in the world cup is 105 m by 68 m. However, the "2006 FIFA World CupTM Germany Regulations" (http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/i/eu/fifa/regen.pdf) only makes a reference to the "Laws of the Game and Decisions of the International Football Associations" (http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/i/eu/fifa/lawen.pdf) which only lists the desired dimensions for international matches (min./max. lenght 100/110, width 64/75). The french version http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/i/eu/fifa/regfr.pdf does cite 105 x 68 under XIL.5 --ChaChaFut 19:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smaller Soccer Fields? 

message: Great site. But there's no information for what cards are being given out.
:: see also section...World Cup 2006 Disciplinary Record....I believe you'll find it there.
:::And in the main article under each group/the knockout rounds. -- Arwel (talk) 21:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Card Information 

message: Did this match set a new record for most cards in a game ? sikander 21:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 4 red cards is a record. Intangible 21:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Joint 16 yellow cards. Fantastic. Skinnyweed 21:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Damn. This has to be a record. That was a ridiculous game. Haha. ScottNak 21:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Foul language. . Name and number? :-P --GraemeL (talk) 21:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Scott, 17. USA. *hangs head*ScottNak 04:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I guess Deco had some golf resort tips for van Bronckhorst :) Intangible 21:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Sorry mate, but it's a Pyrrhic victory. With 2 players suspended and Ronaldo injured, it's going to be tough in the next round. Kiwi8 21:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Portugal beats Brazil 8-0 ? hahahah. sikander 21:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, after extra time, Deco will score the 8 goals against his motherland. 
In the next match we'll beat the English once more, we have 23 players and Ronaldo is going to recover, Merche Romero will help. The English are in bad position, Rooney will have to work on his McDonalds part time, Beckam has a schedule in the hairdresser and Crouch will be in the mechanic. Afonso Silva 21:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  portugal vs netherlands cards record 

message: Considering that most people will be looking at that now, it makes sense to me that that should be at the top. I don't want to be rash and move it up there without any prior notice, though. Comments and criticism welcomed. eszetttalk 21:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about adding a temporary hatnote that links to the relevant section? In fact, I'll go and do that now! Carcharoth 22:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving elimination bracket to the top? 

message: 2006 FIFA World Cup#Refereeing_controversies is tagged as unreferenced. I added one, but it needs several more before removal of the tag is justified.
It is also tagged as NPOV. Again probably justified. Needs some rewording and some citations to fix this.
Finally, it's tagged for cleanup. Bad grammar and repeated phrases mostly. Should be fairly easy to get it to a state to remove the cleanup tag. --GraemeL (talk) 22:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly is. You can probably remove the cleanup tag now and the cite needed flags will make it easier for people to get the appropriate references quickly. --GraemeL (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think we should keep the citation flags. They show where citations are needed. Kingjeff 22:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup. My bad wording. I should have started a new sentence instead of using "and". --GraemeL (talk) 22:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: No no. My mistake. I didn't read it right. Kingjeff 22:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: How about changing the text to just mention commentators (instead of television commentators) and use an online newspaper source that criticises the number of cards? --GraemeL (talk) 23:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My apologies for sticking my nose in here, but I would like to suggest to the many wikimembers who are taking care of these pages during the tournament that you might want to discuss whether you want to split this topic off into its own article. It is being added to so quickly (at least in part by contributers who are getting a chance to vent there frustration with how the games are being officiated) that it will soon be bigger than all of the other parts of the article put together. I understand if there is a consensus against this idea, I just wanted to toss it in here as food for thought.User:MarnetteD | Talk 02:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Marnette, an article for officiating controversy throughout the World Cup would make for a good football article, but it will be difficult to keep it NPOV and correctly worded. Animated GIF's of each incident would count as a semi-citation but many references would be needed. --70.49.220.9 03:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Agree, it's way to POV to be on the main tournament page. For example, "Perhaps the most controversial goal in the World Cup so far has been Nakamura's 26th minute strike against Australia in the first group match... In the end no harm was done as Australia stormed back into the game in the final 10 minutes to win 3-1." What the hell is this?? --KiwiDave 03:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The entire thing was POV as hell.  There are controversies in EVERY GAME with the officials, certainly we're not in the business of inventing controversy, but we can't seriously include ALL controversial stuff in here.  The simple fact is that one or two people disagreeing with a call is NOT a controvery....a writer in Portugal will feel that the two red cards issued to their players against Holland were not warranted, while a dutch writer will think they were.  There have been controversial decisions thus far, but I don't recall any real controvery...stuff like match fixing, improper conduct (i.e. holding up a barcelona shirt before you ref the final champions league game, etc.) and stuff are controversies.  A few calls that ruffle feathers are not. Batman2005 04:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: They are mentioned....on the disciplinary record page. Batman2005 13:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, three yellow cards is not unprecedented - I was listening to ex-referee Clive Thomas on the radio last night, and he recalled the same thing happening in a 1974 World Cup finals match at which he was the fourth official (ironically also involving Australia). -- Arwel (talk) 06:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referee controversies 

message: That's all. Skinnyweed 00:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References need cleanup 

message: I THINK THAT PART SHOULD BE DELETED FROM PAGE, REFEREES ARE HUMAN , MAKE MISTAKES, ERRORS OCCURS IN EVERY COMPETITION IN EVERY SPORT SO I THINK IS AN USELESS AND POINTLESS ARTICLE —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.114.28.174 (talk • contribs).
:I agree (except that it is in fact a section not an article), no contreversy can really be judged as factual knowledge, except perhapes the 3 yellow cards.  There's no interpretation there, but that dosen't really deserve the space to mention it. PN123 05:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that just because a mistake is unavoidable it isn't noteworthy.  It is usefull to document mistakes that were made, because they help keep the event and its results in context. --NThurston 18:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with NThurston. Accidental as they may be, the mistakes do affect the outcome of the game and should be recorded Jds10912 15:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A section on referee mistakes is fine and would fall into this category.  A section on "controversies" is more difficult to establish, as one needs to verify that it is indeed a controversy. -- Deville (Talk) 16:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: referee controversies

message: I think the current player should be in bold because it stands out better, what do u all think?. 01sbrightwell 14:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Goals

message: Should we have a section for controversial referee decisions? I think we ought to as those matches will be remembered. For instance italy vs usa, portugal vs netherlands, and now italy vs australia. I think everyone would agree that these were controversial matches. However, the section will have to be NPOV and that might be hard to do. sikander 17:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How would you go about citing commentary from the commentators? Or the pundits? Skinnyweed 18:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just the commentary or pundits anymore. FIFA has joined in the criticism of the referees. Xombie 18:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think wikipedia has a good solution for "I heard in on TV" yet.  For now, though, I would say to include what a reputable commentator said on this topic as accurately as you can document it. --NThurston 18:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Tape the games and keep copies of the commentaries. Oops. Are you not allowed to do that? ;-) I still think the 'wiki' commentating revolution is overdue - we should all be able to commentate on a game and edit our commentary as needed! Carcharoth 01:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Commentarism, journalism and history are all one person points of view, and just a few can do it with the professionalism of objetivism. So, for me, citing a australian commentator quote on the transmission of the match against Italy is the same that citing a an australian fan quote about the game. Don't take commentary on TV or a daily article as the "absolute truth".--Bauta 02:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A curious example ... I believe there is no Australian television commentator covering the world cup whilst the game is in progress.  I believe Australia (SBS) takes the English commentary.60.226.76.41 04:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right... example.--Bauta 17:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial decisions 

message: I think we should put in brackets the scorers of penaulty sgoot outs because it is a goal, but i know it dosent count for the boot , what do u all think? 01sbrightwell 00:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do it in a separate section, like for the "own goals". I know the penalties scored in a penalty shoot-out don't count for much, but this section is a logical place to put stuff to avoid people having to hunt through the article to find out who scored what penalties. Alternatively, put a "penalty shoot out" section at 2006 FIFA World Cup miscellany, which generally seems to accept anything rejected from the main articles. Carcharoth 01:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems a bit pointless to me.  It's not technically true that "it is a goal but doesn't count towards the golden boot" - penalties converted during shoot-outs are not added to players' career goal-scoring records therefore they are technically not goals at all.  Adding this info the the goalscorers section would just cause confusion, IMO ChrisTheDude 09:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think its a dumb idea, what's next? Adding goals that were disallowed due to offside? Adding shots that would have been goals if they hadn't been saved?  If it's not recorded going to count for the golden shoe it shouldn't be in that section.  If we want to see who scored a penalty kick we can look at the game box. Batman2005 21:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Penaultys

message: The record amount of players who have scored in their third world cup during the current tournament, plus the count by ESPN which I find inaccurate, plus a recent edit in the Raul Gonzalez article saying he was the 4th ever to do it, lead me to enter my list here, to see if someone can comment on this, on whether this is an agreeable list, or correct any errors. Thanks in advance. ChaChaFut 02:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for editing my typo. ChaChaFut 00:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Players scoring in three world cups 

message: I just have to ask, before this might get added to the trivia section... a quick look at the previous results show that not only are the Swiss the only team to not give up a goal in a World Cup tournament (as far as I know, no champion has pitched all clean sheets), but I believe that they may be the first team to not score at all in a penalty shootout, when they went out 0-0 (0-3) to Ukraine.  Wjmorris3 02:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This portal agrees with you. -- Alias Flood 02:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: These facts are cited at the BBC sports report --Tivedshambo (talk) 07:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Switzerland and penalty kicks 

message: As much as I'm sure the Portugese would love it, Portugal has not yet beaten Argentina 5-4 in the World Cup Final.  Please remove this from the knockout ladder. --Australian Matt 03:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: I'm suggesting that add a semi-protection to this page to avoid some unregistered super-fans vandaling this page. Daylight 04:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See the thousand other discussions on this for reasons why it won't be semi-protected. Batman2005 21:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Against Vandalism 

message: 2006 FIFA World Cup
 number of edits                   7511
 number of minor edits	          1699 (22.6%)
 first edit	                  12/12/2002 14:34 (Mintguy)
 most recent edit	          06/27/2006 07:38 (IanManka)
 mean time between edits           4:07 h
 unique editors	                  2558 (1573 IP addresses)
 average number of edits per user  2.9
 number of edits within last day   263
 number of edits within last week  2201
 number of edits within last month 5964
 number of edits within last year  7279
Take a look at those statistics! Over 5900 edits in the past month. Thanks to everyone who has worked on this article so far. Retrieved from . Ian Manka Talk to me! 08:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wow... 

message: Yesterday I added a trivia section, and today it has been removed.  Why?  Couldn't it be easier to keep up with the trivia when it is added as soon as it happens? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.226.138.75 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say it would be because there is already an entire article full of trivia at 2006 FIFA World Cup miscellany.  Take a look and see if what you wrote is already in there. -- Chuq 13:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia

message: I think the article should be s-protected during match times, and unprotected during other times.--May the Force be with you!  Shreshth91(review me!) 16:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been discussed about a thousand times, and has been shot down a thousand times. Batman2005 21:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protection 

message: On the scores for the games, it lists Spain beating France 5-0, when the game hasn't even taken place for another hour or so... --Slappy.McGee 17:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now fixed. David McCormick 17:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scores already? 

message: I have heard a lot about it should Fussball because FIFA is locationed in Switzerland, but not is not a good reason becuase the World Cup isn't in Switzerland. It is in Germany where they would use Fußball. Please give some better reasons, I will listen.  --Je suis t\c 20:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In some placxes it is "ss", in others it is "ß". To maintain it for uniformity, I think I will change it to "ß", unless there are any objections.--May the Force be with you!  Shreshth91(review me!) 20:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It is a good reason. The cup is organized by FIFA, and the official World Cup name is written with "ss" and not "ß". We should stick with the official name. (i.e. "ss") 81.221.179.69 21:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I object to going against consensus in the archives simply because people don't read them and established precedent by FIFA.  They say its "ss," it should stay that way, its not the Wikipedia Editors World Cup, its the FIFA World Cup. Batman2005 21:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: More to the point, it's not the German world cup; it's merely hosted in Germany.  They didn't change it to "World Soccer Cup" when it was in the US in 1994, after all.  --EngineerScotty 21:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: ß is used in Germany. ss is used in Switzerland. How about we keep this article in english? That would solve the problem. Kingjeff 21:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is in English.  Regarding the official title, we should either quote it exactly, or not at all.  (Likewise, the German Wikipedia might wish to spell it as Fußball for local audiences, Fussball to make FIFA happy; much as the English article uses "football", and Spanish uses "futbol".)  --EngineerScotty 21:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I have one REALLY good reason why it is ß not ss for the German title or offical title 

message: Is Italy the only team in this year's world cup so far never to have had another team score against them?
:In the group stages, Italy had a goal scored against them, though and own goal in their match against USA.--May the Force be with you!  Shreshth91(review me!) 16:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that's why I specified "by another team". I guess that means the answer is yes? It looks that way, but I haven't checked to see whether any of the other temas with singleton goals were caused by an own-goal. 199 (talk) 17:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Switzerland was eliminated without conceding any goals. Star Ghost 17:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conceding goals 

message: How about an article on the burgeoning Portugal v England rivalry?
:Please explain Bornagain4 18:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the fact that we (England) will be playing them for the second major tournament in a row exactly qualifies as a "rivalry". There's no other significant history between the two teams that I can think of..... ChrisTheDude 21:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Meetings in two successive tournaments is a long way from "rivalry". Though since Phil Scolari was managing Brazil when they knocked England out of the 2002 World Cup, rumour has it that if his team manages it three times in a row he gets to keep Sven! -- Arwel (talk) 22:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd say that to be considered a proper "rivalry" there would have to be a serious depth of feeling around any match between the two nations, extending almost beyond football, as there is with Argentina, Germany and Scotland. Meetings with those nations get fans seriously fired up, I don't think fans think much about a game with Portugal other than "oh look, it's Portugal again!".... ChrisTheDude 07:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I Think any such article should be tittled Scottish-English rivalry. In my experience English fans have no problem supporting Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland or Ireland. However there seems not to be the same camaradary in the opposite direction. For instance When england failed to reach the World Cup (shudders at the memory) English fans Supported the other countries from the UK Arnie1066 07:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Portugal v England rivalry 

message: What does "to come here:" means?, the quarters finals section have been altered, Why?
PlaGa701 28 June 2006 9:52 (GTM -4)
: someone had inserted the football match template and left a message (report to come here) in the template where the report links are usually placed. I've updated the section and removed those messages so it is clear now and no confusion for readers. sikander 05:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes in the Quarters Finals Section 

message: The link we have for the GER-ARG match report () already has the final score filled in! 2-1 to Germany aet. Very unprofessional from Fifa, but what's new? How long before someone realises?  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  02:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Amazing! I'm speechless! -- Alias Flood 02:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It has to be a database bug. sikander 05:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The link is dead as of now.--May the Force be with you!  Shreshth91(review me!) 05:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Match fixing 

message: It seems difficult to notice the link to the 2006 FIFA World Cup miscellany page under the heading == See also ==, so I gave it a separate heading. --Oden 16:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia/miscellany