Talk:The Holocaust/Sandbox/ArchiveHSB

message: *Sandbox for The Holocaust article's disputed content.  
*Please let me know at the bottom of this page if there are any issues or comments about this format!  Thanks!  – Dreadstar † 01:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

message: *From this:
Other groups were persecuted and killed by the regime, including the Roma, Soviet POWs, disabled people, gay men, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholic Poles, and political prisoners
*To this:
Other groups were persecuted and killed by the regime, including the Soviet POWs, political prisoners, Roman Catholic Poles, Roma people, disabled people, gay men and Jehovah's Witnesses
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====Comments====
*Question Why were the Roman Catholic Poles and political prisoners links removed? – Dreadstar † 02:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other groups

message: *Question Why were the Roman Catholic Poles and political prisoners links removed? – Dreadstar † 02:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: *From this: 
*To this: 
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====Comments====
*Question - Why were the Josef Mengele and Miklós Nyiszli sections removed? – Dreadstar † 02:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Wy were added? Just some people. Mengele wasn't even a chief doctor at Auschwitz (Eduard Wirths was) - he was one of hundreds in the camps, many of which experimented, and Nyiszli was his Jewish assistant. --HanzoHattori 07:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *There may have been a good reason they were added, I recognize both names as being significant and notable figures in this.  This is also something that needs to be discussed on the talk page before changing.  – Dreadstar † 07:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the reason was: "let's add as many of the 'further reading' random links as possible" (I say: let's keep the number of random "further reading" links to 0). Said Wirths was really more notable, Mengele was just one of his subordinates (the one obsessed with twins, while for example his Auschwitz collegue Horst Schumann was into new sterilization techniques). And there were people above Wirths in the hierarchy, too. And so on. --HanzoHattori 08:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Medical experiments

message: *Question - Why were the Josef Mengele and Miklós Nyiszli sections removed? – Dreadstar † 02:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Wy were added? Just some people. Mengele wasn't even a chief doctor at Auschwitz (Eduard Wirths was) - he was one of hundreds in the camps, many of which experimented, and Nyiszli was his Jewish assistant. --HanzoHattori 07:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *There may have been a good reason they were added, I recognize both names as being significant and notable figures in this.  This is also something that needs to be discussed on the talk page before changing.  – Dreadstar † 07:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the reason was: "let's add as many of the 'further reading' random links as possible" (I say: let's keep the number of random "further reading" links to 0). Said Wirths was really more notable, Mengele was just one of his subordinates (the one obsessed with twins, while for example his Auschwitz collegue Horst Schumann was into new sterilization techniques). And there were people above Wirths in the hierarchy, too. And so on. --HanzoHattori 08:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: *From this: Soviet POWs 2–3 million Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know, United States Holcoaust Memorial Museum, 2006
*To this: 2–3.5 million Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know, United States Holcoaust Memorial Museum, 2006, p. 125. 
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*Removed: Spanish POWs- |7,000–16,000Wingeate Pike, David. Spaniards in the Holocaust: Mauthausen, the Horror on the Danube, 2000; Razola, Marcel & Constante, Mariano. Triangle bleu; Gilbert, Martin. The Holocaust: A History of the Jews of Europe During the Second World War, Owl Books, 1987; [http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Mauthausen/KZMauthausen/History/SpanishRepublicans.html 
"Spanish prisoners at Mauthausen", Scrapbookpages.com. 
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====Comments====
*Question: Why would the number of Soviet POWs be different if they are from the same source?
:*See the Soviet POW section, "high" (not really, are higher) is 3.5 by Daniel Goldhagen, with 3.3 by USHMM - 3.0 is pretty low by most estimates. --HanzoHattori 06:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Right, but from what I see, the number comes from a specific source.  If two reliable sources disagree, then that needs to be noted and cited, not just changed to an arbitrary selection.  I would suggest citing both sources and giving the range of difference.  – Dreadstar † 07:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I see no problem. --HanzoHattori 08:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: * I told already (geez!): this is jut weird, Spanish was neutral country (and actualy allied to Hitler). Do they mean ethnic-Spanish Soviet POWs or something? And if you count insignificant oddities like this, more killed were among (for example) the disarmed or taken prisoner Italians in 1943-45 (not to mention hundreds of thousands of captured resistance fighters). For example, 5,000 Italian POWs were killed in a very short time (few hours?) on Cephalonia. --HanzoHattori 06:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Apologies, I wasn't following the dispute until I came across the edit war, and I haven't gone back through all the discussions.  I don't know what is meant by the reference to Spanish POWs; this is something that needs to be discussed before changing it in the article.  Right now we're discussing the changes you made to the article, so let's focus on that - but maybe all the numbers should be included somewhere.   – Dreadstar † 07:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: *The source references the same "Spanish POWs" as did the section removed?  The article refers to them as "Spanish political prisoners". – Dreadstar † 08:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, this is the source cited in the current article (and as I said again and again, Spain was neuutral in the WWII). --HanzoHattori 08:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Number of Soviet POWS

message: *Question: Why would the number of Soviet POWs be different if they are from the same source?
:*See the Soviet POW section, "high" (not really, are higher) is 3.5 by Daniel Goldhagen, with 3.3 by USHMM - 3.0 is pretty low by most estimates. --HanzoHattori 06:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Right, but from what I see, the number comes from a specific source.  If two reliable sources disagree, then that needs to be noted and cited, not just changed to an arbitrary selection.  I would suggest citing both sources and giving the range of difference.  – Dreadstar † 07:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And I see no problem. --HanzoHattori 08:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: * I told already (geez!): this is jut weird, Spanish was neutral country (and actualy allied to Hitler). Do they mean ethnic-Spanish Soviet POWs or something? And if you count insignificant oddities like this, more killed were among (for example) the disarmed or taken prisoner Italians in 1943-45 (not to mention hundreds of thousands of captured resistance fighters). For example, 5,000 Italian POWs were killed in a very short time (few hours?) on Cephalonia. --HanzoHattori 06:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Apologies, I wasn't following the dispute until I came across the edit war, and I haven't gone back through all the discussions.  I don't know what is meant by the reference to Spanish POWs; this is something that needs to be discussed before changing it in the article.  Right now we're discussing the changes you made to the article, so let's focus on that - but maybe all the numbers should be included somewhere.   – Dreadstar † 07:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

text: *The source references the same "Spanish POWs" as did the section removed?  The article refers to them as "Spanish political prisoners". – Dreadstar † 08:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, this is the source cited in the current article (and as I said again and again, Spain was neuutral in the WWII). --HanzoHattori 08:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: *From this: POWs were needed to work as slaves to help the German war effort; by 1943, half a million of them had been deployed as slave labor. Nearly 5,000 Soviet POWs died every day in October 1941, according to the USHMM.
*To this: POWs were needed to work as slave laborers to help the German war effort; some of the survivors were also recruited into the German military. Nearly 5,000 Soviet POWs died every day in October 1941, and it got only worse during the winter months of 1941, according to the Museum. 
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====Comments====
*And the controversional is what exactly? --HanzoHattori 07:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Soviet POWs

message: *And the controversional is what exactly? --HanzoHattori 07:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: *From this: Bauer argues that this adjustment reflected Nazi ideology that the Roma, originally an Aryan population, had been "spoiled" by non-Romani blood.Bauer, Yehuda. "Gypsies," in Berenbaum, Michael & Gutman, Yisrael (eds). Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp. Indiana University Press and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (1994); this edition 1998, p. 446. 
*To this: Bauer argues that this adjustment reflected Nazi ideology that the Roma, originally an "Aryan race", had been "spoiled" by non-Romani blood.Bauer, Yehuda. "Gypsies," in Berenbaum, Michael & Gutman, Yisrael (eds). Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp. Indiana University Press and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (1994); this edition 1998, p. 446. 
====Comments====
*Coments on this subsection start here.
*Did you even click both links? At all, it would be rather Indo-Aryans, but Nazis were all about the "Aryan race" bullshit. Artifactial problems, all of this. You waste a lot of time, seriously. --HanzoHattori 07:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Roma

message: *Coments on this subsection start here.
*Did you even click both links? At all, it would be rather Indo-Aryans, but Nazis were all about the "Aryan race" bullshit. Artifactial problems, all of this. You waste a lot of time, seriously. --HanzoHattori 07:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: *From this:   
*To this:  
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*From this: In 1936, Heinrich Himmler, Chief of the SS, created the "Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion." Homosexuality was declared contrary to "wholesome popular sentiment," and gay men were regarded as "defilers of German blood." The Gestapo raided gay bars, tracked individuals using the address books of those they arrested, used the subscription lists of gay magazines to find others, and encouraged people to report suspected homosexual behavior and to scrutinize the behavior of their neighbors. 
*Appended to the end of the above: Tens of thousands Germans were convicted between 1933 and 1944 and sent to camps for "rehabilitation," where they were identified by yellow armbands and later pink triangles worn on the left side of the jacket and the right pant leg, which singled them out for sexual abuse. Hundreds were castrated by court order.Giles, Geoffrey J. "The Most Unkindest Cut of All': Castration, Homosexuality and Nazi Justice," Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 27, No. 1, (January 1992): pp. 41-61. They were humiliated, tortured, used in [hormone]] experiments conducted by SS doctors, and killed by the guards and other inmates. The allegation of homosexuality was also used as a convenient way of dealing with Catholic priests. Steakley writes that the full extent of gay suffering was slow to emerge after the war. Many victims kept their stories to themselves because homosexuality remained criminalized in postwar Germany and elsewhere in Europe.
====Comments====
*Actually I removed the odd stuff about clubs and magazines. You confuse the changes a lot. --HanzoHattori 07:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Indeed, I'm not surprised.  There was a large amount of information to sort through.  Are you beginning to see a pattern here?  :)  – Dreadstar † 08:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gay men

message: *Actually I removed the odd stuff about clubs and magazines. You confuse the changes a lot. --HanzoHattori 07:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Indeed, I'm not surprised.  There was a large amount of information to sort through.  Are you beginning to see a pattern here?  :)  – Dreadstar † 08:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: *Removed:  
====Comments====
*Coments on this subsection start here.
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Actually moved not removed. --HanzoHattori 07:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Freemasons and Jehovah's Witnesses 

message: *Coments on this subsection start here.
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Actually moved not removed. --HanzoHattori 07:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: *From this:
::IMAGES
*Moved to ?:  
====Comments====
*??? It's rather removal of flood-like stuff like the list of Wannese participants etc. Most of images are still in the article. (You cite a lot of these changes wrong... not that anyone but we two care, but hey.) --HanzoHattori 07:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Tell me about it..;) there were a whole heck of a lot of content changes in that little diff, copying and pasting it, then sorting it and formatting it to present here was a big job, so a few mistakes were bound to crop in!  I'm glad you're here to help correct those mistakes!  – Dreadstar † 07:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Wannsee Conference and the final solution (1942–1945)

message: *??? It's rather removal of flood-like stuff like the list of Wannese participants etc. Most of images are still in the article. (You cite a lot of these changes wrong... not that anyone but we two care, but hey.) --HanzoHattori 07:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *Tell me about it..;) there were a whole heck of a lot of content changes in that little diff, copying and pasting it, then sorting it and formatting it to present here was a big job, so a few mistakes were bound to crop in!  I'm glad you're here to help correct those mistakes!  – Dreadstar † 07:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: *From this: Further information: Jewish resistance during the Holocaust. For uprisings: Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, Białystok Ghetto Uprising, Marcinkance Ghetto Uprising, Sobibór extermination camp, Żydowski Związek Walki, Żydowska Organizacja Bojowa. For Jewish partisans, volunteers, and escapees: Yitzhak Arad, Bielski partisans, Masha Bruskina, Eugenio Calò, Jewish Brigade, Jewish partisans, Abba Kovner, Dov Lopatyn, Moše Pijade, Haviva Reik, Special Interrogation Group, Hannah Szenes, Rudolf Vrba, Alfréd Wetzler, Shalom Yoran, Simcha Zorin.
*To this:  
====Comments====
*and one not 2 pictures from the WG uprising
:*Sorry, i don't understand.  – Dreadstar † 07:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish resistance

message: *and one not 2 pictures from the WG uprising
:*Sorry, i don't understand.  – Dreadstar † 07:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: ::But actually the only "disputing editor" is SV, and he/she flatly refuses to participate. Crum (supported by SV) was the one who belived in the imprtance of the Normandy stuff for whatever reason, and you can see the dispute on this on the main page, with the importance of supposed of the battle of Normandy vastly voted off as "not directly connected" even without my participation (actually - I say not connected at all, besides both being parts of the WWII). --HanzoHattori 08:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you propose as a next step? – Dreadstar † 16:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What now? I guess declare consensus archived (by walkover, as predicted). --HanzoHattori 13:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked what you would propose as next step, not to 'declare consensus'.  I oppose reverting back to the diff and so does SlimVirgin.  There is no consensus, do not start an edit war again.  – Dreadstar † 16:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Consensus

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Holocaust&diff=148942466&oldid=148927853
I may discuss anything if needed. --HanzoHattori 15:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New changes