Talk:Roman infantry tactics, strategy and battle formations

message: The roman carried the shield in an unsual way,while the greek and the medieval infantry used the shield with the arm inserted in it's hook in a orizontal way,wheter the romans inserted the arm in the hook of the shiled like they were carrying a bag,so the arm was perpendicular to the hhok.i hope someone understands what i ve said and helps to translate it in english.... Thanks a lot Philx 12:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Phil! Sorry I've not replied to you sooner. Yes, I'm having some trouble, along with some small amusement, understanding exactly what you mean by that. Did they carry their shields in bags? Or put bags on their arms to keep them from sliding off? I know the scutums had two handles, or hooks as you say, inside. The legionary would usually put his left forearm through the first one and hold the second with his hand. Sorry, I'm usually able to understand most of what you say pretty well. But this sentence I just don't get. I blame my own daftness more than your command of English.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 09:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Hi friend, I'm pleased that our project is going on pretty well,thanks to all that are helping us.The shield is a problem, they "wore" the shield as a bag,saying that i mean that they put their forearms on the shield as they had to carry a bag,the forearms was so perpendicuòar to the body, not that they carried "scutum" in a bag, i wish had a photograph, or perhaps i can post Vegetious's sentence in latin, I hope that you will now understand and translate it in comprensive english, I'm very sorry of that, wish had chosen linguistic college more than engineer, Thanks a lot for your help, Philx 12:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad to help out, my friend! Yes, our project is going quite well. I've now finished with the main article and can get to the last section I moved over from the legio where you originally started. I'll carefully remove the parts in it we have already covered so it won't repeat itself too much. I still don't fully get the shield, bag thing. But I do have a better idea of what you are trying to say now. When I read Vegitus, it was an English translation, not original Latin and nearly 20 years ago besides. Maybe I can find an online translation and we can finally put this confusion in a bag :> As for linguistic versus engineering colleges, from the standpoint of finding a good paying job, you made a more practical choice. This is perhaps, a quality you inheirted from your Roman ancestors who were very practical and also great engineers. Ciao Amico--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Hi friend, i ve chosen to be engineer for ,as you say, a more pratical question,and more english, for the pay!:) for the bag thing shield i can post some photos, that can be explicative, and what about if i post more tactics, that are only used in the late empire times, because Vegetius is a late latin writer, this tactics tells about comitanenes and limitanei and the various scholae, and i intended to post some legion's mottos , what you say? Philx 16:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi again Phil! Sorry, my friend, I've neglected our work for so long. I've pretty much completed editing the article now. Must boast It is looking good! We seem to make an effective team, amico. We now have far more information, and detailed, quality info at that, than could have been included in the Legio article, which is already large. The scary part is, the Legio still feels incomplete somehow. You make a very good point about Vegetius dealing largely with the late empire (don't forget the pseudo-comitatenses and palatinae :). I wrote a small section dealing briefly with the late empire for the article on Diocletian. I think posting some legion mottos is a great idea! Do you know User:Panairjdde? He also lives in Rome and has done a lot of fine work here on the legions. The two of you would have lots to discuss:> Ciao for now--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 05:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

text: hi friend,this project is almost completed, thanks to you and to all, i will add some legion's mottos , and the life of the roman soldier described by tacitus, I don't konow Panairjdde, i ll try to contact him and dicuss abot the roman infantry, thanks again a lot. Philx 14:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shield carried as a bag 

message: The article needs reformatting and spell checking. Otherwise good, although there is not enough information about battle formations. –Reply to David Latapie 15:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi David! If you would wish to contribute more information on battle formations, please feel free. This is an open project, so BE BOLD :>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reworking needed 

message: What reference is used for the mottos section? There is some discussion of the phrase "Strength and Honor" at this page: http://www.murphsplace.com/crowe/latin.html . One comment on the page seems to think "Vis et honor" is not the most natural translation of the concept. Was "Vis et Honor" really a motto of some Roman Legions, or just a translation of a phrase in the movie Gladiator? --64.81.81.225 01:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The same page http://www.murphsplace.com/crowe/latin.html seems to indicate that "Strength and Honor" (Latin: Veritate et Virtute) is the motto for the Sydney Boys High School, which Russell Crowe went to, and was his idea to use in the movie, not because it was an actual Legion's motto. Did the Roman Legions even have mottos, other than SPQR? Although "Vis et Honor" sounds great, please let's not fall into the common trap of having movies become historical fact. Without a verifiable source (pref. contemporary), we should remove this section. --64.81.81.225 09:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Veritate et Virtute means Truth and Virtue. Not Strength and Honor, which was not a motto of any particular legion, but a battle cry generals would use to rouse their legionaries before going into combat. It was more likely SHOUTED rather than softly spoken as by Crowe's Maximus Decimus Meridius. They had no boom microphones back then afterall:> I have removed the mottos section in view of your criticisms. But Vis et Honor does have an historical basis. So Crowe and Ridley Scott did not completely make it up.
 
The mottos are found in vegetious de re militari --Philx 21:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: There is an online version of De Re Militari here: http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/vegetius . I can't seem to find the Latin text online, which would help to see what the original Latin of the phrases was. Which Book and Section does Vegetius talk about what the generals said to the troops? In Book III, there is a section "General Maxims", however these probably were what Vegetius himself felt, and not the official mottos of the Legions themselves. Thanks for looking into this. --64.81.81.225 21:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

text: We might also consider, rather than having a motto section, we could have a "Maxims" section that lists some of the Maxims and references De Re Militari, or link to De Re Militari and add the maxims there (some of the ones found in Book III, "General Maxims").  We could do the same for maxims found in other sources. --64.81.81.225 22:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes in the latin text wich i've got the sentences are fond in the third book, i think you re right, perhaps saying generals  maxims is more accurate historically than saying mottos, but the problemi is that we can't know if these were really spoken by generals or only in some occasion by a single general, in fact i'm searching over Tacitus and Titus Livius to see if these are reported--Philx 02:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've checked your link about the english transaltion of vegetious de re militari and i might be wrong but it seems missing  of some passes, besides this, i think we should remove some, because i've checked on tacitus and livius and none of the vegetious mentioned mottos are found. --Philx 10:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mottos

message: thanks Ghost, i agree with you about the photos  and article order, 
*Primum do not slander anyone Silence, or critici what is done.
*Secundum the disposition you made wasn't, in my opinion is better  what there was previously.
*  Tertium explain why, the disposition you made is more professional. Explain  it and we may revert the things up, simply because i do not see the advantages of that disposition,If you would so kind to talk about it. Do you know besides all this, something about auxiliae palatinae? Thank you for any of you reply sir . Si  veritatem audire non vis nemo tibi dicere potestBTW Sis sic sit? --Philx 12:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''Επι ταξεως'' ; ''De ordine articulo'' 

message: I changed some of the Latin here. "Agmen" is neutral, so "agminem" must be wrong. Also, "De oppido expugnando" doesn't sound like a battle tactic, but rather more like a chapter title ("How to capture a fortified town"). The wording should be changed.--Iblardi 16:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some remarks 

message: What about a shorter name somebody will eventually find on wiki?
"Roman landwarfare" for example? Wandalstouring 15:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In effect this would be more encyclopedic, and more esay to search any other suggestions? --Philx 19:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Roman military tactics" The current article does not concern tactics. It would be better off as "Roman military equipment". Wandalstouring 20:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Or how about Roman military system?--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  I think that Roman military system woukld be correct, what do you think guys? --Philx 11:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good, but perhaps you should mention the integration of naval and landwarfare. naval supply was important for the large numbers of troops in enemy territory (like in Germany, Romain ships on the River Elbe during the conquest), so it is part of the system. Wandalstouring 22:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a convention in the US and UK to refer to land based warfare as Military and distinguish it from Naval/sea-based. There is already and extensive article on the Roman Navy. Certainly we should make mention of it where appropriate and link to it.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 00:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming