Talk:Psychic surgery/Archive 2

message: In the light of findings by the FDA that ""'psychic surgery' is nothing but a total hoax;" by a federal judge that "Psychic surgery is pure and unmitigated fakery;" and by the American Cancer Society that it "found no evidence that 'psychic surgery' results in objective benefit in the treatment of any medical condition," the Quackery category and the Pseudoscience link are appropriate. They are neutral because of the verifiable source citations showing that some authorities find it a hoax, fakery, and valueless. 
For the same reason, the links to Miracles and its inclusion in the categories Supernatural healing and Parapsychology are also appropriate and neutral. 
Psychic surgery belongs in the supernatural healing category because it is factually true that a substantial number of people hold it to be supernatural healing.
Psychic surgery also belongs in the quackery category because it is factually true that a substantial number of people hold it to be quackery.
Categories and links are there to help people find related information, not to pass some kind of final judgement on the truth or falsity of something. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It isn't pseudoscience since it doesn't pretend to be scientific for the most part.Geni 02:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Methinks that the "quackery" category tag is appropriate and NPOV. Independently of whether psychic surgery is quackery or not, it certainly is relevant to that topic.  (Just as (say) "fraud" would be relevant to the topic of "law".) Besides, if classifying as "quackery" were POV, so would be classifying it as "supernatural healing".As for "pseudoscience", many psychic surgeons make physics-sounding claims, with scientific terms like "vibrations", "energy", and the like (check Romero's quote).  Many scientists see such declarations as attempts to make the craft seem "scientific".  Again, independently of whether that is true or not, psychic surgery is certainly relevant to the topic "pseud-science".All the best, --Jorge Stolfi 04:29, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't get Category:Quackery to work.  –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 19:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudoscience link, Quackery category 

message: The article lacks most references and citations and reads as an essay because of its narratory tone, this could be improved to a more editorial or encyclopedic tone for compliance. 
I have inserted requests for sources and citations where needed.
The terms "doctor" and "surgeon" relate to physical realm of work (aka physicians) and largely contradict the term "psychic" that relates to the non physical realm. "Psychic doctors" is a terminology used and accepted only at common language and is not encyclopedic. A more correct term should be "Psychic Healers" which is the most accepted term in scientific circles sometimes with the added -pseudo- to healers ( but this addition may denote parciality or lack of neutrality). The article has many good points and with the requested improvements may have good acceptance JennyLen 10:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not single thing you said makes any sense at all. Try again in english. ornis (t) 11:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In brief: 
*There is general lack of citations and references
*It is narratory
*Psychic healers are not doctors and less surgeons, the correct term is "Psychic Healers"
Furthermore please keep civility and don't remove the banners which put the article under scope and request references, unless the article provides the requested references the banners will be placed again. The correct way is to provide the requested references. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation JennyLen 11:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: In fact it is largly referenced, the problem is that the statements are not attributed to the references they come from. I don't know what narratory is supposed to mean, but you're in no position to complain about poor grammar. The last point is a non-sequitur. The correct term is "fraud", since they don't actually do any surgery or healing, but the common term ( attested to by WP:RS's ) is psychic surgery. ornis (t) 11:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes that could be part of the problem with the citations. 
*"Narratory" is an ab populis  term popularized in some countries when refering to "narrative style". Style is not grammar and there are clear guidelines and policies in Wikipedia regarding style. 
*As you may have realized I didn't challenge the term "Psychic surgery" but psychic "surgeon", please se next thread. 
JennyLen 12:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inadequate use of terms, lack of references and sources 

message: Please leave the flags in place until complying with the requests. JennyLen 11:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do not remove the flags 

message: It reads much better with your recent revision. 
One concern continues to be "It is practiced chiefly in Brazil and the Philippines", it could be good if you can provide who says it and where. Another concern is " is performed by psychic surgeons", they are not surgeons, what about trying some approach in this leading parragraph which explains that they call themselves "surgeons" , perhaps "performed by who are popularly known as Psychic Surgeons..." or something which solves that definition. It is a leading parragraph.
Be careful in " Kaufman believed the cancer had been removed. However, Kaufman died of metastatic carcinoma on [[May 16]" because you are trying to say that he "anyway" died of that, but if you mention metastases, these could be because of  "migration" of some cells of the previous existing carcinoma to other organs and therefore were not necessarily the same cancirnoma. Perhaps you should pinpoint (with a citation) where (in which organ) was the carcinoma located when he got the psychic intervention and where was when he died. Or remove metastatic if you don't have a reference to his diagnose and leave " died of terminal carcinoma". Just an idea for dodging a potential bullet, not a request.JennyLen 12:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well with the Brazil, Phili thing, I'm pretty sure we don't have to say who said it, since it's not really a controversial opinion, but a plain statement of fact, and we have sources for that. While you are right, they're not "surgeons", the thing is, they aren't "healers" either, this isn't like herbalism or forms of alt.med like that, where the practitioner believes what they are doing is real. This is an out and out hoax, it's really not possible to perform it and believe it's real ( without being heroically deluded that is ). In any event, we have articles about christian science and creation science despite the fact that neither of those subject are even remotely scientific. In any case I'm sure we can some to some agreement about some more neutral term like "proponent" or "practitioner". As for the last point on kaufmann I don't know, I'll see if I can find something more concrete. ornis (t) 12:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Practitioner or proponent as you propose is quite good, if you need at the leading parragraph "surgeons" because of easily recognized term, you can think about "popularly known as.." JennyLen 12:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: As you may know, there is also abundant practice of that in Colombia, Jamaica, Portugal, Spain, Marroc, Gabon, Mozambique, Angola, Thailand and a few more, may be you want to consider something like " practiced in many countries been well known Brazil and Phillipines" (with better grammar of course)
JennyLen 13:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll see if I can find some refs for the popularity of the practice, that covers those countries. There is already a short section on psychic surgery in other countries, so I reckon they should go in there. I've made the change to proponent. Also I found kaufman's death certificate, though I'm not sure whether that by itself is good enough, it certainly suggests that he died of a metastatic carcinoma. ornis (t) 13:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This reference describes use in the Philippines. Axl 14:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yeah, that ref is pretty good, it's already used a few places in the article. ornis (t) 14:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It strikes me that we could leave the specific geography out of the introduction. Antelan talk 15:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revision 

message: *There is a possible confusion when you refer to candomble, in Brazil, most of the Psychic practicioners pertain to umbanda they are what they call "pai de santo". 
*The linked article of Arigo still says surgeon instead of practitioner
*The death certificate establishes death by renal failure caused by metastases derivated froma a primary carcinoma, so to be correct, you could say "died of renal failure as consequence of the diagnosed carcinoma" or something like that
*There are I think many citations to newspaper articles, please see WP:TORIGRS you should add a few more solid references
*Qigong and Shiatsu are unfairly related with this type of practice in the article, that should be changed as the manipulations relate by lineage to umbanda ritual, the touches or movements may look similar to Qigong or Shiatsu but were not inspired on those totally different practices.
*There is a section "other countries* which need to be taken away until it has been populated
JennyLen 18:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made the renal failure change. I'll have to do more research before I comfortably understand the condombe/umbanda distinctions; if the original creators of that section see this in the meantime, their help would be appreciated. Antelan talk 19:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A few points 

message: This article has been the subject of POV-pushing for months.  All NPOV editors need to keep an eye on it.  At one time, the lead ran thus, and it seems to migrate back toward that state at regular intervals (previous versions were even worse).
Recently, weasel words were inserted in controversion of the recent ArbCom on the paranormal (Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paranormal/Proposed_decision).  This is a call for NPOV editors to put this article on their watchlists. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 20:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Continual POV-pushing

message: Antelan, wow, that's a great job on the lead(: –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead

message: Well it appears that either original authors copied large blocks of text from here, or ( much more likely, looking at the history, and the other obviously plagarised idiocy she's got on her sight ) she plagiarised her article from here. Either way, that article is no good as a ref for this article. ornis (t) 23:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch, took it out. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 23:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible Copyvio 

message: Hi all. The article is now fully protected at some arbitrary revision due to time-wasting edit warring. Please discuss your diffferences here with a view to coming to some sort of consensus/compromise. When you have agreed, report back to either myself or WP:RPP for review. Thanks - Alison ☺ 04:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look above, you'll see we have been discussing it. This whole mess is because of martinphi being an obstructionist troll. ornis (t) 05:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fully protected 

message: Request filed for 3rd opinion  –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 05:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice gesture, but it will be declined; 3O only does disputes between 2 parties. Antelan talk 05:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes, forgot that ): –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 05:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup.  If we can't work it out here, then it may be best to go for an RfC or Formal Mediation per Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.  I would recommend Formal mediation if talks fail.  But I don't see why this can't be easily worked out.  Dreadstar † 05:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 3rd opinion

message: Generally speaking, I believe an article lede should be structured so that it first describes its subject, thus supplying context; this description is then followed by any notable criticisms or controversies about the subject.  I believe we can refer to WP:LEAD to help guide us in this issue, which says:  "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies."
WP:Lead Establish context, states “The first paragraph needs to establish the context in which the topic is being considered, by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it.”
So, the first paragraph should establish the context, which is what “Psychic Surgery” is, and then in the next paragraph we can briefly describe its most notable controversies.  Right now, both are mixed together in the very first sentence: “Psychic surgery is a phenomenon that originated in the 20th Century and has been deemed a form of medical fraud.”
My suggestion is to describe the subject in the first paragraph, then the criticism/controversy in the second paragraph.  This structure clearly follows policy and guideline.  Psychic surgery is described by the medical community and the US government as a total hoax and medical fraud, but we need to say what it is before we can logically say what it is that is a hoax and fraud. Dreadstar † 05:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To push the most important, best-sourced information to the second paragraph would be a rather unusual violation of WP:UNDUE, in my opinion. It is first and foremost a medical fraud; this fraud takes many different forms, which we try to summarize in the intro and in the next section. Antelan talk 05:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree, the subject of the article should be described first, then the criticism.  Undue would only apply if the article were about "Medical Fraud", but it is about "Psychic Surgery", something that needs to be defined before it is faulted.  Prominence of placement requires that a subject be defined, and although it is a fraud/hoax, that's not the definition to those that beleive in it an perpetuate its existence.  Believe me, I'm having trouble arguing this, because of my own personal views that are in agreement with you...but I'm trying to apply policy. Dreadstar † 05:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: And it's not like we're pushing it to the end of the article, it's right there, in the lead section.  Which I think can actually be larger than the description because of the overwhelming number and nature of reliable sources that show it's a fraud and a hoax.  That's where WP:UNDUE comes into play...imho...;) Dreadstar † 05:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's just it though, I think per policy and the source we can safely define it as medical fraud. ornis (t) 05:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might be right, Ornis, I've been mulling that over myself.  I'm just not sure we can define something as fraud without actually defining it first.  This is a toughie.  Dreadstar † 06:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Dreadstar, you need to either point to a specific violation of policy or propose an alternative version and explain why it is better. If you simply think "phenomenon" is too brief a descriptor, propose an alternative. Undue weight isn't simply about size; ghettoizing the scientific and legal findings to the second paragraph is also a huge WP:UNDUE issue in this most obvious of cases. Antelan talk 06:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did make a proposal on how it should be structured and I quoted Wikipedia policy and guideline to back it up.  You're more than welcome to take your accusations of WP:UNDUE up the chain.  Right now, I oppose the changes you propose for the article, so there's no consensus for them.  Dreadstar † 06:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm asking that we show, not just describe, what changes we'd like made. I'll get it started for us. Antelan talk 06:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Chicken guts is somewhat important, as it's one of the key pieces of evidence that this is fraud. I seem to remember reading somewhere, when a group of doctors tested some of the blood and found it was chicken blood, John of god's response, was something along the lines of "Ah well that's the power of god! Only he can turn human blood into chicken blood!"  ornis (t) 06:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't get me wrong, I think it's important. I just think that it's less important than the fact that, whether using chicken guts or not, psychic surgery is inherently fraudulent. Antelan talk 06:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No I know what you're saying, it was just an amusing anecdote I'd forgotten, that your comment brought to mind. ornis (t) 06:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I forgot to mention that I chortled when I saw the anecdote you posted. Very nice. ;-) Antelan talk 06:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The Federal Trade Commission today ordered four West Coast travel agencies to stop promoting psychic surgery tours to the Philippines and told the agencies to warn hundreds of patients who had gone there that the hoped-for miracle cure was a "total hoax."'
This is only a minor example, but the obvious history is that someone started this "phenomena" before the critics got wind of it.  So the article should follow that pattern.  We can't describe the controversy or criticism (or warning) without first describing what the issue is.  We have to provide context.  Dreadstar † 08:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Non sequitur. Just because it was initially believed to be true, then proved a fake, it doesn't follow that we need to present it in that fashion. Oxygen for instance, doesn't start with a description of phlogiston. ornis (t) 08:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead section dispute

message: Which policy would you point to in requiring that the information explaining that "this fraud is a fraud" be located in its own paragraph? The fraud is the most interesting, best sourced, and arguably most important aspect of this article; it is also intrinsic to this illegal pseudo-medical practice - even more intrinsic than any specific description of the practice itself (whether it is done by hand, with tools, with chicken entrails, etc). Despite your apparent agreement with all of this, you seem to think that policy requires this partitioning, which is why I'm asking if you can point me to some text in a specific policy that you might have in mind. Antelan talk 06:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Chicken guts is somewhat important, as it's one of the key pieces of evidence that this is fraud. I seem to remember reading somewhere, when a group of doctors tested some of the blood and found it was chicken blood, John of god's response, was something along the lines of "Ah well that's the power of god! Only he can turn human blood into chicken blood!"  ornis (t) 06:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't get me wrong, I think it's important. I just think that it's less important than the fact that, whether using chicken guts or not, psychic surgery is inherently fraudulent. Antelan talk 06:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No I know what you're saying, it was just an amusing anecdote I'd forgotten, that your comment brought to mind. ornis (t) 06:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I forgot to mention that I chortled when I saw the anecdote you posted. Very nice. ;-) Antelan talk 06:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The Federal Trade Commission today ordered four West Coast travel agencies to stop promoting psychic surgery tours to the Philippines and told the agencies to warn hundreds of patients who had gone there that the hoped-for miracle cure was a "total hoax."'
This is only a minor example, but the obvious history is that someone started this "phenomena" before the critics got wind of it.  So the article should follow that pattern.  We can't describe the controversy or criticism (or warning) without first describing what the issue is.  We have to provide context.  Dreadstar † 08:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Non sequitur. Just because it was initially believed to be true, then proved a fake, it doesn't follow that we need to present it in that fashion. Oxygen for instance, doesn't start with a description of phlogiston. ornis (t) 08:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Version B

message: Psychic surgery is a phenomenon that originated in the 20th Century and has been deemed a form of medical fraud. During psychic surgery, practitioners appear to perform painless surgery using their fingers and unsterile tools. They say that they extract "tumors" or other pathological masses such as pus or bones from the patient's body through an incision. Psychic surgery is most prevalent in its countries of origin: Brazil and the Philippines.
Psychic surgery has been denounced by the US Federal Trade Commission as a "total hoax", and the American Cancer Society maintains that psychic surgery may cause needless death by keeping the ill away from life-saving medical care. Medical professionals and skeptics say that such paranormal talents do not exist, and argue that sleight of hand can best explain psychic surgery. David Vernon in Skeptical - a Handbook of Pseudoscience and the Paranormal, ed Donald Laycock, David Vernon, Colin Groves, Simon Brown, Imagecraft, Canberra, 1989, , p47
===Version "B"===
Psychic surgery is a phenomenon that originated in the 20th Century. During psychic surgery, practitioners appear to perform painless surgery using their fingers and unsterile tools. They say that they extract "tumors" or other pathological masses such as pus or bones from the patient's body through an incision. Psychic surgery is most prevalent in its countries of origin: Brazil and the Philippines.
Psychic surgery has been deemed a form of medical fraud., and has been denounced by the US Federal Trade Commission as a "total hoax", and the American Cancer Society maintains that psychic surgery may cause needless death by keeping the ill away from life-saving medical care. Medical professionals and skeptics say that such paranormal talents do not exist, and argue that sleight of hand can best explain psychic surgery. David Vernon in Skeptical - a Handbook of Pseudoscience and the Paranormal, ed Donald Laycock, David Vernon, Colin Groves, Simon Brown, Imagecraft, Canberra, 1989, , p47
:I used your excellent example, Antelan, and my only real change besides the minor structural change would be for the first sentence in the second lead paragraph to have stronger wording than even "deemed", for example:
:*"Psychic surgery has been condemned by the medical community as a form of medical fraud"
:Dreadstar † 06:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On problem with both versions is the term "Professional skeptics". I don't think there are a whole lot of "professional" skeptics, and I think the line should read something like: "Medical professionals and skeptics.." ornis (t) 06:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems fair. Dreadstar, if you agree, would you update Version B (or I can if you'd like)? Antelan talk 06:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me.  Whatever we can source, of course...;)  You can change'em both, if you like.  Dreadstar † 06:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sourcing shouldn't be a problem, since the American Cancer Society has quite a bit to say about it. Antelan talk 06:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. How do you both feel about replacing ( in para 1, sent 3 ) "say that they" to "claim to". The meaning is exactly the same, but I think it flows a bit better. ornis (t) 06:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that WP:WTA says, "The word claim can be used to mean "assert, say". Its usage must be considered. The American Heritage Dictionary notes this connotation: "['claim' means] to state to be true, especially when open to question"." , I think that is acceptable in this case, because their "claims" are certainly open to question (and legal answers). Antelan talk 06:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, my, but "claims" is the third rail of all things paranormal...let's leave that can-o-worms for much later.  I honestly think that "says" says it almost as well as "claims".  The biggest bar is where that one little statement should go. Once we've agreed on that, all else should be cake...so just agree to my version...:-D Dreadstar † 07:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Fraud is the definition. ornis (t) 07:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then source it as such. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is sourced, stop asking the same questions over and over again. ornis (t) 07:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This is Version B, but "phenomenon" has been replaced with "medical fraud" in the first sentence. The first sentence of paragraph 2 has been shortened. Antelan talk 07:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My favourite so far. I reckon: "During psychic surgery," could probably go, leaving just: "Practitioners...". ornis (t) 07:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Putting the objections before the definition will never gain consensus.  The objections come after the definition- that's standard practice. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we do put the objections before the definition, we could just rename the article to Medical Fraud and have 'psychic surgery' as the first example on the list.  As for this particular article, Version 'C' doesn't really address the concerns I've outlined.  OTOH, is there a policy that says a subject should be defined by it's detractors rather than (and I shudder to say it), it's proponents? Dreadstar † 07:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well yes there is, if it's a science of pseudo-science and those detractors are expert in the relevant field, and they vastly outnumber the proponents. It's all in WP:NPOV ornis (t) 07:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: And no, redirecting it to medical fraud would not make sense, since this is a fairly specific type, that is well known enough in it's own right to warrant an article. ornis (t) 07:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Especially so, since medical fraud is a redirect itself.  Did you create that just for this discussion?  Wow!  Service with a smile!  ;)  If this is to be defined by its fraudulent nature, then I don't see a problem moving it under an overall medical fraud article.  I believe its notability (or notoriety) is due to the persistent belief in it, not necessarily that it's a fraud.  As for pseudoscience, yeah, I think we've all been down that road before too.  Let's focus on the issue at hand, does Wikipedia define and start an article on a subject by the definition of its detractors?  I think that's the core issue; and I think the answer is no.  Dreadstar † 08:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Health fraud already redirected to quackery. I created the medical fraud redirect because I only just noticed it didn't exist. "I think the answer is no" You thought wrong in that case. I suggest you look at Intelligent design probably the only pseudo-science article that's even close to NPOV, and it is most definitely defined by its detractors. ornis (t) 08:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent example! Intelligent design actually proves my point, the first paragraph defines it, and mentions its proponents; the second paragraph talks about its notable criticisms.  Dreadstar † 08:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: LMFAO. I guess from that comment that you aren't really familiar with ID of the Disco institute, otherwise you'd realise that the definition we use in the ID article is based more on the definitions given by forrest, numbers, scott, miller and jones, and is practically the anti-thesis of the def used by the DI, IDEA and their shills. ornis (t) 01:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: Psychic surgery is a phenomenon that originated in the 20th Century. During psychic surgery, practitioners appear to perform painless surgery using their fingers and unsterile tools. They say that they extract "tumors" or other pathological masses such as pus or bones from the patient's body through an incision. Psychic surgery is most prevalent in its countries of origin: Brazil and the Philippines.
Psychic surgery has been deemed a form of medical fraud., and has been denounced by the US Federal Trade Commission as a "total hoax", and the American Cancer Society maintains that psychic surgery may cause needless death by keeping the ill away from life-saving medical care. Medical professionals and skeptics say that such paranormal talents do not exist, and argue that sleight of hand can best explain psychic surgery. David Vernon in Skeptical - a Handbook of Pseudoscience and the Paranormal, ed Donald Laycock, David Vernon, Colin Groves, Simon Brown, Imagecraft, Canberra, 1989, , p47
:I used your excellent example, Antelan, and my only real change besides the minor structural change would be for the first sentence in the second lead paragraph to have stronger wording than even "deemed", for example:
:*"Psychic surgery has been condemned by the medical community as a form of medical fraud"
:Dreadstar † 06:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On problem with both versions is the term "Professional skeptics". I don't think there are a whole lot of "professional" skeptics, and I think the line should read something like: "Medical professionals and skeptics.." ornis (t) 06:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems fair. Dreadstar, if you agree, would you update Version B (or I can if you'd like)? Antelan talk 06:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good to me.  Whatever we can source, of course...;)  You can change'em both, if you like.  Dreadstar † 06:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The sourcing shouldn't be a problem, since the American Cancer Society has quite a bit to say about it. Antelan talk 06:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. How do you both feel about replacing ( in para 1, sent 3 ) "say that they" to "claim to". The meaning is exactly the same, but I think it flows a bit better. ornis (t) 06:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that WP:WTA says, "The word claim can be used to mean "assert, say". Its usage must be considered. The American Heritage Dictionary notes this connotation: "['claim' means] to state to be true, especially when open to question"." , I think that is acceptable in this case, because their "claims" are certainly open to question (and legal answers). Antelan talk 06:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, my, but "claims" is the third rail of all things paranormal...let's leave that can-o-worms for much later.  I honestly think that "says" says it almost as well as "claims".  The biggest bar is where that one little statement should go. Once we've agreed on that, all else should be cake...so just agree to my version...:-D Dreadstar † 07:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Fraud is the definition. ornis (t) 07:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then source it as such. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is sourced, stop asking the same questions over and over again. ornis (t) 07:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Version "B"

message: Psychic surgery is a form of medical fraud that originated in the 20th Century. During psychic surgery, practitioners appear to perform painless surgery using their fingers and unsterile tools. They say that they extract "tumors" or other pathological masses such as pus or bones from the patient's body through an incision. Psychic surgery is most prevalent in its countries of origin: Brazil and the Philippines.
Psychic surgery has been denounced by the US Federal Trade Commission as a "total hoax", and the American Cancer Society maintains that psychic surgery may cause needless death by keeping the ill away from life-saving medical care. Medical professionals and skeptics say that such paranormal talents do not exist, and argue that sleight of hand can best explain psychic surgery. David Vernon in Skeptical - a Handbook of Pseudoscience and the Paranormal, ed Donald Laycock, David Vernon, Colin Groves, Simon Brown, Imagecraft, Canberra, 1989, , p47
:This is Version B, but "phenomenon" has been replaced with "medical fraud" in the first sentence. The first sentence of paragraph 2 has been shortened. Antelan talk 07:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My favourite so far. I reckon: "During psychic surgery," could probably go, leaving just: "Practitioners...". ornis (t) 07:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Putting the objections before the definition will never gain consensus.  The objections come after the definition- that's standard practice. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we do put the objections before the definition, we could just rename the article to Medical Fraud and have 'psychic surgery' as the first example on the list.  As for this particular article, Version 'C' doesn't really address the concerns I've outlined.  OTOH, is there a policy that says a subject should be defined by it's detractors rather than (and I shudder to say it), it's proponents? Dreadstar † 07:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well yes there is, if it's a science of pseudo-science and those detractors are expert in the relevant field, and they vastly outnumber the proponents. It's all in WP:NPOV ornis (t) 07:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And no, redirecting it to medical fraud would not make sense, since this is a fairly specific type, that is well known enough in it's own right to warrant an article. ornis (t) 07:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Especially so, since medical fraud is a redirect itself.  Did you create that just for this discussion?  Wow!  Service with a smile!  ;)  If this is to be defined by its fraudulent nature, then I don't see a problem moving it under an overall medical fraud article.  I believe its notability (or notoriety) is due to the persistent belief in it, not necessarily that it's a fraud.  As for pseudoscience, yeah, I think we've all been down that road before too.  Let's focus on the issue at hand, does Wikipedia define and start an article on a subject by the definition of its detractors?  I think that's the core issue; and I think the answer is no.  Dreadstar † 08:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Health fraud already redirected to quackery. I created the medical fraud redirect because I only just noticed it didn't exist. "I think the answer is no" You thought wrong in that case. I suggest you look at Intelligent design probably the only pseudo-science article that's even close to NPOV, and it is most definitely defined by its detractors. ornis (t) 08:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent example! Intelligent design actually proves my point, the first paragraph defines it, and mentions its proponents; the second paragraph talks about its notable criticisms.  Dreadstar † 08:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: LMFAO. I guess from that comment that you aren't really familiar with ID of the Disco institute, otherwise you'd realise that the definition we use in the ID article is based more on the definitions given by forrest, numbers, scott, miller and jones, and is practically the anti-thesis of the def used by the DI, IDEA and their shills. ornis (t) 01:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Version C

message: Psychic surgery is a procedure in which healers apparently perform painless surgery using their fingers and unsterile tools. Practitioners say that they extract "tumors" or other pathological masses such as pus or bones from the patient's body through an incision.  Psychic surgery is most prevalent in Brazil and the Philippines, though it has a large following in other countries as well.
Psychic surgery is considered a medical fraud by the FTC, and has been denounced by the US Federal Trade Commission as a "total hoax",. The American Cancer Society maintains that psychic surgery may cause needless death by keeping the ill away from life-saving medical care. Skeptics say that sleight of hand can best explain psychic surgery. David Vernon in Skeptical - a Handbook of Pseudoscience and the Paranormal, ed Donald Laycock, David Vernon, Colin Groves, Simon Brown, Imagecraft, Canberra, 1989, , p47
–––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not gonna happen. ornis (t) 07:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Though it has a large following in other countries as well" - are we conjuring up facts now? Antelan talk 12:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Get real, you guys.  Of course I can source that one, Antelan- to Time magazine.  What you don't understand is that you are trying to violate NPOV.  That is what won't happen.  If you can source your POV, do it.  If you can't, stop pushing. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 12:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Every other word from you is "POV" even when I'm telling you that I don't believe a statement - how exactly is that a POV issue? I'm contesting that "it has a large following in other countries as well", and if you have the Time reference (issue, page) I'd gladly look into it to see if I can confirm this. That is "getting real". Antelan talk 13:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, since we're trying to produce an encyclopedia article here, please provide me with the info about the Time issue that backs what you're saying. I've produced several sources, and as a measure of good faith I'm asking you to do the same. Antelan talk 13:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Version D 

message: Reference number 7 is identical to reference number 3. Please merge these. Thanks. Axl 07:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Need to wait till the page is unprotected. ornis (t) 08:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The reason I made it a new reference is so I could include the relevant quotation in #7 as this point had been contested. Should we still be merging these? Antelan talk 12:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is better merged. Thanks. Axl 14:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will do when the page is unprotected. Thanks, Antelan talk 14:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference 

message: Frankly, I got lost reading the debate. May I ask someone who may have the technical abilities to create a box or list with two tables where each participant in the debate enters in concise form the following:
*Table 1 (numbered entries): The words or passages he/she believes are  incorrect
*Table 2: Proposals related to the point (number) presented by him/herself or other participant in table 1
Then I think that the debate can be looked with a more graphic point of view and easier reference. At the present chain of messages I frankly have difficulties in making a proposal without needing to go up and down the chain and writing at least seven lines for referring what I am talking about. JennyLen 11:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The major point of contention, it seems, is whether a statement of the fraudulent nature of psychic surgery ahould be placed prominently in the first paragraph or left until the second. (Or, in my view, should it be relegated to the second paragraph, despite being the best-sourced, best-confirmed, most-detailed part of this practice, or should it play a prominent role in the first?) Antelan talk 12:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: About that, my opinion is that "fraud" is only one of the things that "Psychic surgery" may be linked to, not its main definition, this based in that:
*Psychic Surgery is the act of allegedly making a surgical intervention through means other than conventional surgery and by individuals not qualified as medical surgeons.
*It can be used for deception and fraud (however this is for what it is used not what it is)
*The Justice in almost all countries judge reported cases on a case by case basis and is not included as a crime or so per se. In the few countries where it figures in penal code it does so under "crimes of abuse of confidence and deception" and/or "crimes against the physical integrity".
Basically the article must define Psychic Surgery by what it is and not by what is used for, this can be in a later parragraph and must have solid sources as a penal code or at least a couple of tribunal decisions and even in that case must be warned "in xxx country, it is considered a fraud" or something like that JennyLen 13:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Well put (= –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 13:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with all except for the notion that "what it is used for" (fraud) must be relegated to a second paragraph. Antelan talk 14:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brief  list 

message: Copy paste this table for use on making sentence proposals.
Sentence in article.	Proposed change.
Sentence in article.	Proposed change.
Sentence in article.	Proposed change.
Wikidudeman (talk) 14:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Generic table to use

message: Who here would be willing to participate in rewrite of this article? I notice that it has been at the center of a lot of disputing recently and I also noticed that the article itself is in very bad shape and thought that the best thing to do would be to rewrite the entire article from scratch using the information and sources already in the article except taking another approach that everyone agrees upon. Without going into detail of how the rewrite process would work, who would be willing to participate in it? Wikidudeman (talk) 13:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Will consider this later, bur for now we seem to be making progress- thanks (: –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 13:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is. No one seems to be agreeing on anything. Wikidudeman (talk) 13:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Martinphi on this one. We've been rewriting this since yesterday. Your participation here would be welcomed. Antelan talk 13:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a couple new angles.  One is Jenny's, and one is that the definition needs sources.  Seems obvious, but some of the former proposals were synthesis.  So there are new things coming up, and I think we might be able to push forward.  There are also a couple more people involved now.  But if it doesn't work out, maybe we should take you up on it.  –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 14:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When you get around to it, I am interested in reading the Time article that you talked about, because in addition to verifying that what you said is true, it could provide some additional material for the body of this article. Antelan talk 14:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm aiming for a total rewrite. I don't think I could contribute anything as is. I'll leave you all alone and see if you make any progress in a week or so and then come back. Unless a lot of people start working together without some organizing body then I doubt it will be successful and I see conflict ahead. Though I wish you all the best of luck. Wikidudeman (talk) 14:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Correct, I wouldn't call those numbers a "large following". The other thing is that this is from 1968, which is before the rulings that occurred in 1975 where the US government came out and called all of this a hoax. I imagine that the numbers, at least in the US, would be fewer now that there is an official statement on the matter. Antelan talk 14:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You would have to read the sources. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 16:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that these numbers are not useful, and not large. Antelan talk 16:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The numbers look large to me, small to you. Like I say, really a non-issue in this debate.  –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 17:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite project proposal 

message: Definition    	Psychic surgery is a procedure involving an apparently invasive operation performed with resource to paranormal abilities with the purpose to cure by means other than conventional medicine.
Practicioners.	The procedure is performed by practicioners of paranormal healing with no medical qualifications who enjoy some degree of credibility within certain communities or groups.
Librarian2 16:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice- especially the definition.  Does anyone have a source saying that none of them have medical qualifications? –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 16:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Looks good.  Martinphi's right about sourcing the qualifications, but the wording is fine.  Dreadstar † 16:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I appreciate that you're bending over backwards to be helpful, but there's no more textual support for that version than for the version that Martinphi opposed. Antelan talk 17:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Antelan, we're working towards a consensus version here.  I support Librarian2's efforts.  The current version is not satisfactory.  Dreadstar † 17:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: My concern with the definition is this: controversy is often found when something is disputed. Homeopathy, for example, is controversial. Psychic surgery is, as far as I have read, not controversial because there is broad agreement about its nature. Antelan talk 18:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  About definitions 

message: I was reading the chain of the debate. It is practically impossible after a debate or when parties are at opposite sides, to avoid to defend some points. There is only one solution if you want to come out of the freezer, and is to make the definition so short and neutral that doesn't imply one thing or another, thus my short and concise proposal for a definition. Please seat back, take a breath and think a while, there is no way you will reconciliate opposite understandings, you can just avoid both understandings.
My proposal is simple, you place a short definition avoiding "fraud" and also avoiding support to the  concept, just a neutral encyclopedic definition which will tell the reader what it is, not what to think about. Then, in a second parragraph says who makes it also very neutral and then, in a first titled section highly visible with possible title "Controversy" expose both views as open as you want as far as it is with solid citations and not demeaning the opposite side belief. Leave to the reader to decide.
This will provide a simple, short and understandable definition and also clear picture of the controversy and the sides available to join. You can use my short definition as candidate or not, but something in that style, no party flags.
I apologize if I am blunt, but you were exhausting yourselves in a loop. Please think about. Librarian2 17:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Librarian2, I support both your efforts and your proposed versions.  Dreadstar † 17:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your thoughts. Please continue working with us if you can tolerate it for awhile longer. Antelan talk 17:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: About fraud/no fraud

message: Definition:	Psychic surgery is a procedure in which a practitioner uses animal byproducts to create the appearance of entering a human body manually or with unsterile instruments.
Antelan talk 18:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, who made the unsigned entry? Librarian2 18:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I did. Antelan talk 18:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, mind explaining why so I can work on a different version? Thanks, Antelan talk 18:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, if you really need me to.  When I read this version, the portion that I object to is: "uses animal byproducts to create the appearance", which doesn't seem to be a proper definition and appears to be the same as saying "fraud".  So, my original objection applies to this version as well.  Dreadstar † 18:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is documentation that this is what happens during psychic surgery. Hence, I felt that it would be a fair definition. Antelan talk 18:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I totally understand, and I assumed it was a good faith attempt to define it, never thought otherwise.  Dreadstar † 18:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Sure, if you really need me to." <-- The origin of my concern about your view of my intentions. Antelan talk 18:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Very well put, Librarian2.  Dreadstar † 18:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd rather get the term defined up front in order to satisfy guidelines as Martinphi and Dreadstar have been noting. Antelan talk 18:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Which reliable sources praise it? If there is a true controversy, yes, we must explore it. But from what I've read, the only controversy is being imagined on this page. I'm truly not opposed to discovering otherwise; I just haven't seen a reliable source to point me in that direction. Antelan talk 18:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Praise" is implicit in the fact that the FTC had to warn people and put a stop to hundreds, if not thousands of tourists who were going on a "psychic surgery" trip.  That's besides the point, it's a straw man argument looking for sources that praise it, the primary driver definition is obvious, then we follow with the criticism of it.  Dreadstar † 18:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see how asking someone to produce sources to back something they want to design an article around is a "straw man". This isn't some frivolous addendum; it's about the nature of the practice. Has any controversy persisted post-1975? I do not think so, which is why I want to see sources. Antelan talk 18:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, I have no problem with it appearing as the cheap trick that it is, I just think we need to define what the trick is before we say it's a trick.  Dreadstar † 18:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And it is, by definition, a procedure in which someone makes it look like they're sticking their hand into you. Antelan talk 18:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's the criticism of it.  Dreadstar † 18:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And this is the root of the problem, apparently. I see this as a statement of fact - a description of what literally happens during the procedure. You see this as a criticism. Antelan talk 18:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I just happen to think that my version is closer to a description of the events as they occur in reality, not what is fancied by salesmen of the practice. That is, I see my most recent description as neutral, not sympathetic. Antelan talk 18:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, wrong call, there you go. Please, lets find a definition of what it is  and not how is done in detail or how is used or other properties.I am not really inclined to enter in a loop I recognize as a loop from far, I can help but only if you reduce the definition to barebones and expose other properties in a Controversy section  Librarian2 18:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What I'm suggesting here is no different from what is done in other articles about procedures, such as Liposuction, Tonsillectomy, Colonoscopy, Manipulation under anesthesia, and dozens of others. Antelan talk 18:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, but their published, scholarly article () starts off with criticism and then describes what psychic surgery is "After study of the literature and other available information, the American Cancer Society has found no evidence that "psychic surgery" results in objective benefit in the treatment of any medical condition. Lacking such evidence, the American Cancer Society strongly urges individuals who are ill not to seek treatment by psychic surgery. The following is a review and summary of material on "psychic surgery" in the American Cancer Society files as of May 31, 1989. Reference to that material by the Society does not imply agreement with its contents." I look forward to your response to my points above. Antelan talk 18:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a one-paragraph treatment that describes their opinion.  It provides no context and isn't applicable here.  I tire of this argument, there is no consensus or policy that backs your way of handling this.  I suggest we follow the lead of our esteemed Librarian2 and stop this endless loop.  Either that, our you take it up the chain.  This is getting us nowhere.  Dreadstar † 18:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is the correct encyclopedic way to do it. Just a comment (for humor not for bad) , the Cancer society in their first line accepts that spirits exist. You see, a definition must be solid, they were in such a hurry to make the point that nothing is physical that they made a poor definition, but brief and concise though. Librarian2 18:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point!  Let's create a brief, concise definition and then pile on the criticism sections..!  Dreadstar † 18:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Antelan's definition

message: The American Cancer Society article starts off with a description before the criticism:
DESCRIPTION 
Psychic surgery is used to remove spirits or physical manifestations of spiritual problems from a patient by the use of bare fingers and hands without any actual surgery. 
OVERVIEW 
Available scientific evidence does not support claims that psychic surgery offers any value to people with cancer or any other disease. Psychic surgeons create the illusion that they can remove tumors, unhealthy tissue, and organs by making an invisible incision using only their fingers and hands. 
Dreadstar † 18:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but their published, scholarly article () starts off with criticism and then describes what psychic surgery is "After study of the literature and other available information, the American Cancer Society has found no evidence that "psychic surgery" results in objective benefit in the treatment of any medical condition. Lacking such evidence, the American Cancer Society strongly urges individuals who are ill not to seek treatment by psychic surgery. The following is a review and summary of material on "psychic surgery" in the American Cancer Society files as of May 31, 1989. Reference to that material by the Society does not imply agreement with its contents." I look forward to your response to my points above. Antelan talk 18:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a one-paragraph treatment that describes their opinion.  It provides no context and isn't applicable here.  I tire of this argument, there is no consensus or policy that backs your way of handling this.  I suggest we follow the lead of our esteemed Librarian2 and stop this endless loop.  Either that, our you take it up the chain.  This is getting us nowhere.  Dreadstar † 18:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is the correct encyclopedic way to do it. Just a comment (for humor not for bad) , the Cancer society in their first line accepts that spirits exist. You see, a definition must be solid, they were in such a hurry to make the point that nothing is physical that they made a poor definition, but brief and concise though. Librarian2 18:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point!  Let's create a brief, concise definition and then pile on the criticism sections..!  Dreadstar † 18:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism / Description placement