Talk:Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius/Archive 1

message: what a great parallel to the Wikipedia world. Danny 02:29 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)
To paraphrase Heinrich Böll, the resemblance is neither intentional nor unintentional, but simply inevitable. Jmabel 07:41, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Old comments

message: Uqbar was an article, but is now a redirect to Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius.  This is moved from it talk page.
The article title is strongly reminescent of J.L. Borges' famous Story "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" (which by the way is, to some degree, about an encyclopedia), but is there any evidence that Uqbar exists elsewhere? Kosebamse 21:35, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Uqbar is a place that does not exist, but which was described perfectly and exhaustively in 1874 by Silas Haslam "History of the Land Called Uqbar" which was based on and earlier treatise of 1641) by Johannes Valentinus Andreä, "Lesbare und Lesenswerte Bemerkungen über das Land Ukkbar in Klein Asien". The great Jorge Luis Borges made of it a metaphysico-literary case, sketching capably the outlines of this foreign world with many disquieting aspects.'
I believe that even the author of this passage has been somewhat taken in, and that the referenced works by Silas Haslam and Johannes Valentinus Andreä are also imaginary! For a good treatment of imaginary works in Jorge Luis Borges's work, see http://www.themodernword.com/borges/borges_hexagon.html, which playfully discusses them as if they are real.
I believe that Silas Haslam himself is real and that his A General History of Labyrinths (Vienna, 1888) really exists (and that's why Borges would have heard of him). I seriously doubt the existence of Johannes Valentinus Andreä.
There's a worthwhile Wikipedia article to be had in all of this, but it's not the one we've got.
Jmabel 06:24, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)

text: Correcting myself: It appears Johannes Valentinus Andreä may well have been historical and may well have been the man who first imagined the Rosicrucians. If this is true, he deserves a Wikipedia article, no? But in any event I am sure that the work attributed to him in Borges's story is imaginary. Jmabel 02:01, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

text: "Bordered by the Kintaas Empire in the North and West, and by the Traline River in the east, this kingdom was ruled by a dynasty of scholar-kings during the late 9th and early 10th centuries.  The economic base of Uqbar consisted primarily of semi-nomadic animal husbandry.  Clans of shepherds maintained distinct villages primarily for winter use and travelled throughout the north eastern regions of Urtyne during the summer.  While the inherant instability of the tribal/nomadic system prevented the dynasty (founded by Komol Ty in roughly 870 c.e.) from exerting significant political control in the region, the dynasty distinguished itself as a patron of various arts, and glimpses of a rich cultural legacy survive.  In particular, the kingdom was notable for epic and extremely long poems aparently derived from nomadic songs and stories.  In general these consisted of a few core stanzas which were repeated almost endlessly with minor but significant changes in the lyrics.  The name for these poems was urik-yamga, or "endless river," implying that, in theory, the recitation could be infinite.  Indeed, on during major festivals, a poem relating to the festival was often recited for days on end by a school of reciters working in rotation.  The dynasty also supported metal craftsmen who are in particular known for crafting round mirrors, some of which have been found in grave sites as far away as China."
-- Jmabel 14:16, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved from "Talk:Uqbar"

message: Curioser and curioser. I now believe that Haslam is probably (but not certainly) fictional, and Johannes Valentinus Andreä actually existed! -- Jmabel 08:10, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Post-merge discussion

message: I have given this article a slight edit. I still find much of the language above-my-head. I realize the plot is complicated, but this article reads too much like an academic paper. Sincerely, Kingturtle 16:16, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  slight changes needed, IMHO... 

message: #"Through the vehicle of fantasy or speculative fiction, this story explores philosophical questions." What are the specific philosophical questions?  ---- Well, I'd already addressed this in the following paragraphs, but I've now written a single summary paragraph. -- Jmabel 05:12, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Get well soon!  My take: the heresiarch's view is interesting because mirrors only reflect, rather than disseminate.  The heresiarch's view is by definition unorthodox. ;)  The article then begins with the imaginary world mirroring ours, before it starts to disseminate unlike a mirror. Markalexander100 02:20, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  TNX for good wishes; I'm now back up to maybe 30-45 mins/day on wikipedia. When I'm better, I'll try to write a whole section on the extended metaphor of replication/reflection (mirrors, badly replicated Britannica, non-matching copies of same book, hrönir, Tlön affecting Earth, etc.). Or if anyone else wants to take a shot, feel free. -- Jmabel 04:46, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  a few more points 

message: Are there particular reasons why themes proceeds plot in this article? IMHO it would read better if the plot summary came before the themes discussion. What do you think? Kingturtle 01:43, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  themes vs. plot 

message: I believe that I've dealt with most issues that have been raised, so I thought I'd summarize those that I'm aware are still open.
# How much has the story been reprinted? All we have in the article right now is number of Argentine editions of Ficciones as of 1971.
# If there are ISBNs for books from the 1940s and early 1960s (I'm not sure there are) we should add them. 
#*There aren't. See below. - Jmabel 17:50, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been informed by User:Ww, who seems to know what he's talking about, that ISBN was not "retrospective": earlier books simply do not have ISBNs. Hope that settles the matter. -- Jmabel 17:50, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Open matters April 2004

message: Apparently, a publisher called The Porcupine's Quill has out an English-language book of just this single story, . Nothing on line says which translation they used, whether it is illustrated, etc. On the whole, a separate printing of a single story of this length seems excessive to me. However, if anyone can come up with information about this book (especially whose translation it uses), I'd like to add it to the article.
It would also be good to know if there are other published English-language translations. -- Jmabel 04:51, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Other translations?

message: I decided that the balance of opinion was to feature this article. The discussion from Wikipedia:Featured article candidates is given below:
=== Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius ===
About a famous short story by Jorge Luis Borges that makes an enormous number of references to non-fictional individuals, many not well known in the English-speaking world. I believe that this article is the first good English-language guide for the perplexed. I didn't write all of it, but at this point it is mostly my work. -- Jmabel 05:08, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discussion from [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates]]

message: About a famous short story by Jorge Luis Borges that makes an enormous number of references to non-fictional individuals, many not well known in the English-speaking world. I believe that this article is the first good English-language guide for the perplexed. I didn't write all of it, but at this point it is mostly my work. -- Jmabel 05:08, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius]]