Talk:Jews/Archive 17

message: I see that I cannot edit this page, although I also don't seem to see any notice that it is locked. What's that all about? Anyhow, I ran across the following assertion:
:(It has been argued that governmental policies of the United States, with a Jewish population of about 2% of its total population, are largely determined by an Israeli lobby [11], although this assertion has been challenged.)
I suppose that many things have been argued, but this comes awfully close to cracked pottery. I suggest replacing the word "largely" by "disproportionately". The way it stands now you have an uncommon conspiracy theory distracting from a decently written article. Replacing the world would transform the parenthetical remark into a statement of the much more  widely held belief that the aforementioned Israeli lobby (perhaps more accurately called Jewish lobby, because it is usually alleged to represent mainly American Jews) holds at least epsilon more power than one would expect given its size alone. This does not imply that epsilon is particularly large, nor that such disproportionate influence is disagreeable in any way. Alternatively, one could replace "governmental policies" by "foreign policy with regards Israel", and obtain a different, more radical statement that can be heard fairly often, especially in Europe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sjeng (talk • contribs) 19:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  It has surely been argued by someone that little green men from Mars control the White House, but... 

message: I reverted user, Ivan Kricancic edits on this page.  The infoxbox for ethnic groups, features the "popplace" tag for the region with the centre/largest/native population, which Israel has. See, Japanese people, Egyptians, Russian people for examples, or check out the template for it, Template:Ethnic_group. In addtion to being the orgin of the Jewish diaspora (or see diaspora), as of 2006, Israel contains the single largest Jewish population on Earth.
Epson291 08:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews 

message: This article ("Jew") claims that the number of jews living in the United States is between 5,300,000 and 5,671,000. The article, "American Jews", claims that the number of jews in the United States is 6.4 million. It sites this source: http://sev.prnewswire.com/publishing-information-services/20061222/UNTH01421122006-1.html. Furthermore, "Jewish population" claims the number to be 5,914,682. In the interest of consistency, at least two of these articles should be changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.99.174.125 (talk) 22:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Conflicting Entries 

message: The article describes Jews outside Israel as a "Diaspora". As diaspora refers to people who have been forced to leave their homeland it doesn't seem like a NPOV way of describing Jews living in North America, Europe, or elsewhere in the world outside the state of Israel. Wikipedia describes diaspora as "is used (without capitalization) to refer to any people or ethnic population forced or induced to leave their traditional ethnic homelands". As, for example, Jews living in Europe haven't been forced to leave Israel (actually, it's more likely to be the other way around) it would seem a very ideological statement, not befitting Wikipedia, to classify them as a Diaspora. Better to just use the term "outside Israel". Regards Osli73 01:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ' I have reposted it here. Maybe you are unaware on the term diaspora, but it is a word originally used for Jews not living in Israel,  and in the later half of the 20th century came to include other peoples not living in their ethnic homeland, forced or not. See Indian diaspora.  If you review the history of Israel and Judah, you will see in 586 BC Jews for forced from Judea by the Babylonians, and Jerusalem in AD 136 by the Roman Empire. Epson291 06:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect/POV to use the term "Diaspora" to describe Jews living outside Israel? 

message: shouldn't the modern state of israel and related sections be moved below the history section, in conformity to other similar articles on culture and people? Chevrox 21:01, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: section order

message: TALK about an Ashkenazi-centric portrait collage...where are the pictures of the Mizrahi Jews, or Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel), or Bnei Menashe, or Persian Jews, etc, etc.?  As an person of Sephardic heritage, I am amazingly offended that the image box is so amazingly biased toward the Ashkenazim; there are only two Sephardic Jews in that portrait collage as well (and NO Mizrahi Jews), even though Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews make up a huge portion of the population of Israel (there are about 2 million Mizrahi alone in Israel). The box should also be split evenly between men and women (5 men + 5 women); it currently is not.  --172.132.153.245 05:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, the photo has since been changed.  However, please assume good faith.  This was not done on purpose by me.  I am both of Sephardic (Iberian) and Ashkenazi heritage.  I would like to point out, Ashkinizem presently make up 80% of the world Jewry (and it was over 90% in Albert Einstein's generation before the Holocaust), so 8-2 or 3 Ash to Sef, is normal. (women however, make up 50% of the population). [And if you read the post above, I had tried to make to make the women count 5-5, I was close at 6-4.]  I hope it is resolved now with the new photo by user:Pharos.  Shabbat Shalom! Epson291 06:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's true that the Ashkenazim are currently the dominant Jewish ethnicity in the world, but it wasn't always that way. In fact, non-Ashkenazi Jews were the majority for the vast bulk of Jewish history, up until the 1700s. Around this time the Ashkenazim started reproducing faster than ANY other ethnic or national group in Europe, and with this immense swelling in numbers they soon surpassed the Sephardim and others. However, keeping this in historical perspective, Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews were in fact the majority of the Jewish population for thousands of years, while the Ashkenazim have only been the majority of the world Jewish population for approx. 300 years since the massive increase in their numbers in the 18th and 19th Centuries.  --172.132.31.106 04:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Still the amount of notable women verses notable men is certainly not equal.  Jon513 08:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, but there are still 50% men and 50% women.  There is not 50% Sephardi and 50% Ashkenazi, regardless of notability. Anyways this issue was resolved a while ago, but I felt a need to respond to his accusations that I purposely tried to centre it on Ashkenazi Jews more then Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews, which I did not. Epson291 22:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So many people act these days (especially certain groups of admins. that closely watch and exclusively manage/edit certain groups of articles while ignoring the vast majority of others not pertaining to the topic of Judaism) on Wikipedia that 'issues' have already been 'resolved' and are thus set in stone; but isn't Wikipeida a constantly evolving project?  If one spots POV does one have the right to point it out?  Take the name of the article American Jews (incorrect) vs. Jewish Americans (correct): one certain admin. claims that since it has been at American Jews for the past year and half that it is now set in stone and never to be moved again (when it was only recently wrongly moved in an extremely 'shady' page move).  Typically, this admin. was never able to answer me when I asked him/her about the previous 4-5 years (or how ever long) when it was at the correct article name.  --WassermannNYC 02:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ashkenazi-centric portrait collage 

message: Hi.  I am involved in a discussion on my home page with 4 commentators on whether it is appropriate for me to mention the fact that Jewish athletes are Jewish in their Wikipedia entries.  One commentator does not want me to mention it at all, generally.  Even when the person has been elected to a Jewish Sports Hall of Fame. Two others are generally against mention being in the lead paragraph.  (The issue here, in part, I think relates to whether one can view the Jews as a nation).  Only 1 is generally supportive.  I just set forth my thoughts on this in detail, but if any of you would like to contribute your thoughts, please take a look at the most recent discussion on my home page.  Thanks.--Epeefleche 02:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mention of "Jewish" in articles about Jewish athletes

message: Is it such a great idea to have a large swastika at the top of this page?!?! --Mike315 19:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mike, can you point out what page you're referring to? Justin Eiler 19:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a piece of vandalism from yesterday that's already been reverted.--Pharos 19:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks--the question had me confused. Welcome, Mike315. :) Justin Eiler 19:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the response and prompt action!!--Mike315 21:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism?

message: Quote: "There is a debate among scholars over whether the Holocaust only refers to Jewish victims, or to all groups targeted by the Nazis, or to some subset of those groups."
Now, this is not hard science, and arguing about this definition is pointless. The only use for a consensus on the definition would be to make the term current in [academic and media] discourse. Current status of discourse would be to grant legitimacy to both. But once again, what is there to debate? elpincha 14:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hmm, it doesn't seem right, I've updated the tag.  It seems to be a left over source from an older edit, but I didn't delete it though.  A lot of times, it seems Wikipedia users take NPOV to interesting lengeths.  I have never heard any one claim that the Holocaust was the systamatic muder of ONLY Jews....(Though in context, people may be referring to only Jews (or another) when talking about the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean they are denying other victims). Epson291 23:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Holocaust reference at end

message: New US population estimates by a Brandeis University study places the number of American Jews between 6 - 6.4 million. The study is [here. I think this is significant enough to include in the article caz | speak 23:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New US Population Estimates