Talk:American football/Archive 1

message: I agree that this article needs quite a bit of work ... one section that really stood out for me was the "What it's all about" section (starting with the very title and content: football's about George Carlin, doctrine, and scandals? huh?)
* The Carlin section either needs to be elaborated or eliminated ... I don't know his routine, but the way it's described now isn't funny or enlightening (baseball and American football are indeed different ... but aren't they supposed to be?)
* I'm not sure what the point of the character building section is.  The attributes mentioned are unique to neither America nor American football).
These points are just the beginning, but an article like this can only be healed one section at a time. CES 07:49, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be quite happy to see this section deleted. It seems so out of place and I can't imagine what it adds to the article. Carrp 15:52, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: What it's all about

message: Removed this comment for being silly and irrelevent: 
Like most team sports (and individual sports in the context of a meet like the Olympics), American football is often seen as a metaphor for war.
And also, because the paragraph is the unit of composition, and the comment had nothing to do with the rest of the paragraph. - user:TimShell Sep 6 2004
:The comment is silly.  I have been studying the history of warfare for over 20 years and I've never heard of anyone seriously using football as a metaphor for war.  It is the exact opposite.  War is used as a metaphor for football.  It is plain silly to think of a general telling his troops, "We're going to go out there and complete passes, make yards on the ground, and no turnovers."  But, it is common (if a bit sick) to here football players urged to "attack", "fight", and "kill" the "enemy". Kainaw 21:07, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Football a metahpor for War 

message: The article has the following sentence: Linebackers often try to break into the offense's backfield or they stay back to defend against the pass or the run.  So, what this is saying is that the linebacker may rush or stay back.  If they stay back, they may defend against the run or defend against the pass.  What is the other option?  Running lateral the field while ignoring both the pass and the run?  What is the primary function of the linebacker?  That is what linebackers often do.  This is similar to saying that the center often snaps the ball to the quarterback or to another back or ball holder.  That is pretty much true, but it is more correct to word it as The center usually snaps to the quarterback, but there are plays where he may snap to another back or a ball holder.  Since I'm not sure what the linebacker usually does, I can't reword the sentence about them in the article. Kainaw 19:43, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The linebackers' job, roughly speaking, is to figure out the play and do the right thing. So if they're blitzing (pass or run), one or more of them may well be trying to make a play in the backfield. How often this happens depends on the team. On anything else, they need to read the play and drop back to support the coverage if there are a lot of receivers running deep (although it's very bad news for a linebacker to be left trying to cover a wide receiver), move up on short receivers (including tight ends and backs) if they look like possible pass targets, and fill any gaps in the line if it's a run. Once they've figured out the play, they "often" do their best to flatten somebody, and that's about the only thing that's true of every play... Onebyone 10:49, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Linebacker Role 

message: An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the American_football article, and they have been placed on this page for your convenience.Tip: Some people find it helpful if these suggestions are shown on this talk page, rather than on another page. To do this, just add  to this page. — LinkBot 10:23, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[User:LinkBot/suggestions/American_football|Link suggestions]] 

message: I reverted daniel11's changes because I believe it's awkward to say that the ball is "kicked off a tee". I don't believe that's proper grammar, we should say it's "kicked off of a tee" or "from a tee". I also think it's important to say that "the team that scores first, by any means, wins". Otherwise people might assume that you need a touchdown to win in OT. I can assure you this isn't the case. :( Rhobite 01:19, Jan 16, 2005 (UTC)
:I like "kicked from a tee," I wasn't suggesting it has to be "off a tee," I was just changing to the first reasonable thing from the horrendous "off of a tee," which is not just wrong but sounds like schoolyard talk ;)
:For the other one, I was also just changing it to the first phrase that didn't sound completely wrong, though again we could come up with something better than what I wrote. However, "the team that scores first, by any means, wins" is subject to an awkward misreading, where it sounds like a casual affirmation of something rather than meaning "by whatever method," as it's intended to. I don't really care how we finally go, but I think both of those spots need to be written differently than they are now.
:by the way, it's just me, 24.whatever-it-was... I took your suggestion and re-found my username :)
:All the Best,
:--Daniel11 01:27, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two minor changes 

message: Reading an article about Chad Pennington in today's sports section, I noticed that the NFL has strict rules on the manipulation of injury reports.  Does anyone know what they are?  Could they be added to the article? --Zakharov 20:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Injuries 

message: I can't find a mention of the NFL two-point conversion rule. I'm not gong to add it because I don't know the details. DJ Clayworth 20:57, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in the "methods of scoring" section but I think it needs to be clearer. Rhobite 21:04, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
I edited the section.  Thoughts? --Zakharov 22:11, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Two point conversion

message: As noted above, most football players have highly specialized roles. At the college and NFL levels, most play only offense or only defense.
===Offense===
* The offensive line consists of at least five men whose job it is to protect the passer and clear the way for runners by blocking members of the defense. All plays begin with the center handing the ball backwards between his legs, or snapping it, to a teammate, usually the quarterback.
* The quarterback receives the ball on most plays. He then either hands or tosses it to a running back, throws it to a receiver or runs with it himself.
* Running backs line up behind the quarterback and specialize in rushing with the ball. They also block and sometimes catch passes.
* Receivers line up at the end of the offensive line or near the sidelines. They specialize in catching passes.
===Defense===
* The defensive line consists of at least three men who line up across from the offensive line. They try to tackle the running backs before they can gain yardage or the quarterback before he can throw a pass.
* At least four men line up as defensive backs. They cover the receivers and try to stop pass completions. Sometimes they rush the quarterback.
* The other players on the defense are known as linebackers. They line up between the defensive line and backs and may either rush the quarterback or cover receivers.
===Special teams===
The units of players who handle kicking plays are known as special teams. Special-teams players include the punter, who handles punts, and the kicker or placekicker, who kicks off and attempts field goals and extra points.
Mwalcoff 06:00, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: The players

message: The units of players who handle kicking plays are known as special teams. Special-teams players include the punter, who handles punts, and the kicker or placekicker, who kicks off and attempts field goals and extra points.
Mwalcoff 06:00, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Special teams

message: I seem to remember a time when I was planning to do something like this. I suppose I never had the motivation to actually do it. I think this revision makes the article much more accessible. Good work! I'm not sure, though, why you would put a hyphen in "American football," as you've done in American-football strategy and as you propose to do with American football rules. The name "American football" alone is never hyphenated, and although "American football strategy" could possibly be read as "the tactics employed by football players from the United States," I don't think the potential for confusion is really all that high. Mostly, I just think that having the hyphen there looks strange. Aerion//talk 03:46, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the compliment! OK, this is the old copy editor in me talking, but when two words act as a single adjective, they should be hyphenated, unless there is absolutely no possible confusion. For example, Jerome Pathon is an American-football player, but he's not an American football player -- he's from Canada. (Pathon is a Canadian football player, not a Canadian-football player.) To a British person, Freddy Adu is an American football player, but he's not an American-football player. But I can only guess what other people would find confusing. I could be wrong. Mwalcoff 04:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re: Total rewrite 

message: One complaint about the re-write, the new scoring section leaves out a lot of information that was previously shown. For example, the new scoring rules do not show the variants of the different leagues. All leagues previously shown qualify as American football, yet only NFL  scoring rules are listed. For example, one-point safeties and two-point conversion return scores in college football and 4-point field goals in NFL Europe, etc. Either these should be added, or it should be noted which organization's set of rules is being shown. I'll leave that for someone else to decide.
Dhmachine31
: My view is that the American football article should serve as a brief introduction to the sport suitable for people who have never seen it before. It does not need to be a comprehensive database of every rule in the book. We certainly don't need to include obscure things like one-point safeties. I am somewhat concerned that since I rewrote the middle of the article it's progressed toward complexity again. Mwalcoff
::This is an example of a classic Wiki-situation where there is a need for a new article.  Just start American football rules and you can include every little rule imaginable.  The main American Football article should contain a brief summary of the rules, but link to the rules article for all of the rules. Kainaw 18:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The same proposal was made something like 10 months ago, and the article you suggest was already created. It's not done yet, because nobody actually wants to maintain the behemoth. Aerion//talk 01:02, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scoring rules 

message: I have reverted some of the changes made in the past month. There has been a tendency by people to try to "clarify" one point or another over time, and we wind up with an article far more complex than an overview of the sport should be. 
I tried to leave in some of the improvements that had been made, but if I took out something that I should not have, I apologize.
Among the changes I undid was the move of the "Kickoffs" section to before the "Advancing the ball" section. While kickoffs come before plays from scrimmage chronologically, they are far less important to a basic understanding of the game than scrimmage plays are. 
I also removed the "yankball" sentence. Whether some people call it yankball or not is beside the point. It's not necessary for an overview.
Note that someone appears to be trying to create urban legends here. Someone wrote that the name "football" came from the length of the ball (it doesn't) and that end zones are 11 yards long (they aren't). Mwalcoff 21:44, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resimplification