Talk:Sotho–Tswana languages

message: Added a note about the braindead dictionary. Perhaps this link should be removed - it does nothing but disseminate misinformation. -ZyXoas 196.25.255.210
:Removed. — mark ✎ 08:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

message: I don't see any reason to doubt that these languages (and particularly Sesotho) are related to Serotse. There may be reason to debate the closeness of the relationship, but it is clear that a major (if not the only major) ancestor of Serotse was in the Sotho group. Unless somebody shows me cause to doubt it, I'll revise the article to remove the raising of doubts. --Haruo
:I have fixed it, they are indeed related. It were the Kololo from what is now Lesotho that brought their Sotho language to southwestern Zambia. This became Lozi, and its grammatical structure is closer to the Sotho languages than to some other neighbouring Bantu languages. — mark ✎ 08:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I heard just last Wednesday in a talk by Koen Bostoen (at the 36th CALL) is that much of the grammar is similar to Sotho, but that the phonology is much more like Luyana. In his presentation [PPS] Bostoen actually gives a quote from Gowlett (1989): Lozi is "basically South Sotho spoken with the phonology of Lyuana, and with the accretion of a limited number of Luyana and Tswana grammatical elements, as well as a large quantiy of Luyana vocabulary, and vocabulary from English and Afrikaans". Otherwise, the PPS doesn't give much details on Lozi, but it's surely an interesting project they're going to start! — mark ✎ 12:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "May be related"? 

message: Two things: I propose that the present very brief but useful page titled "Sotho languages" on Sotho and Tswana dialects/languages be fleshed out and merged with the existing Sotho-Tswana page, for several reasons, including that fact that the "Sotho-Tswana" term is standard in referring to this subset of Zone S Bantu; and the fact that the existing Sotho-Tswana page has considerable information on it, albeit very lacking on language. I'm editing the Sotho-Tswana page, and will propose the merger there too. 
About the Sotho/Lozi distinction discussed in the "May be related?" section above: for what it's worth, I speak Lozi, and it's utterly distinct from Sotho (not mutually intelligible, for a start). Although Lozi has undergone a mostly unambiguous simplification of Sotho phonology (much neutralisation), as pointed out in part by ZyXoas, Lozi is also undergone significant morphological enrichment (verb extensions, Classes 12 & 13, etc), and most saliently has a hugely augmented lexicon from the Luyaana influence. This augmentation correctly implies a simultaneous impoverishment of the original Sotho lexicon. (Lozi li- is indeed [li], not allophonic Sotho [di]. Lozi mu- is almost identical phonetically to Sotho mo- [mu-]. The superclose Sotho vowels are gone, as are the raised high allophones of /i u/, and the raised allophones (sometimes phonemic) [e o] of phonemic mid /ɛ ɔ/. So, Lozi vowels are down to the Spanish-y five.  — Sotho of the South 23:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I can see, this accords with the quotes I provided above. — mark ✎ 12:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sotho-Tswana languages: merger suggestion, and Lozi/Sotho comment

message: Dang! You beat me to it! Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 16:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know I'm always the first to carry out controversial moves! — mark ✎ 18:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  teh move 

message: Sesotho sa Borwa, are you absolutely sure that "Lovedu" and "Khilobedu" are valid names (and not popular mistakes)? O_o They seem very un-Sotho-ish; what's your view? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 15:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Selobedu 

message: Does anyone object if I move this article to Sotho-Tswana languages which already exists as a redirect? According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dashes#Dashes: "for people and things identifying with multiple nationalities, use a hyphen when applied as an adjective". HelenOnline 13:04, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: HelenOnline 07:48, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed to move to [[Sotho-Tswana languages]] 

message: Maho (2002) is mentioned but not cited. Presumably a reference to an author and publication date, but not clarified nor footnoted. --Haruo (talk) 05:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  unidentified reference 

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thread_title:  External links modified