Talk:Puerto Rican Spindalis/Archive 1

message: I'm not sure but I always tought that was the oficial bird. At leat I believe is the most famous since I've never heard of the Spindalis before. Nnfolz 17:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *The Puerto Rican Spindalis is more commonly known as Reina Mora or Reinita Mora in Puerto Rico. The Puerto Rican Parrot is a fairly recognizable bird but not the official one. Recently, the House of Representatives wanted to changed the official bird to the Puerto Rican Woodpecker but the motion was vetoed by then Governor Sila María Calderón. Joelito 18:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the Puertorican Parrot? 

message: It's clear that banging around with edits isn't going to accomplish anything - we need to find a statement that we all agree on.  It is perfectly accurate to say "The Bald Eagle is the official bird of the United States."  It is not necessary to get into political discussions in order to make this connection.  This is why I feel that you are the ones who are injecting POV into the article when you insist on including "national" in this context, when the political status of PR is irrelevant to the article.  I've told you the misinformation that I was worried about spreading.  Please tell me what potential misinformation might be spread by saying "The Spindalis is the official bird of Puerto Rico."
I am also reading wikipedia's policy on resolving disputes, and would like to get some disinterested parties to help us.  Algr 06:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again I ask you to explain: how using the correct word for something is injecting my personal POV on the article? Please take into account that it is you who are trying to mislead people into thinking Puerto Rico is not a nation. It is you who oppose the use of the correct word because of your (and posibly your mom's) political ideas. Nnfolz 06:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reaching consensus. 

message: ::  The Puerto Rican Spindalis is also the "national bird" of the United States Commonwealth of Puerto Rico .
I find this clumsy, but it solves the false implication problem, and maintains "national".
:No, the use of scare quotes is POV.  Guettarda 20:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The information in the sentence is acurrate but I found it to be to long. I find the current wording: "The Puerto Rican Spindalis is also the national bird of Puerto Rico" to be easier to digest.Nnfolz 06:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well of course everyone is going to like their own version the best, but we are trying to reach consensus.  Most people reading the current version will assume that Puerto Rico is a sovereign state.  Since they are thinking about birds, and not politics, they likely won't realize that this statement might have other meanings.  It is the writer's responsibility to detect and correct potential misinterpretations of his/her writing. Algr 00:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *You can also say: "The Puerto Rican Spindalis is also the national bird of the commonwealth of Puerto Rico" wich is shorter and still accurate. Anyhow nation does not means by any standard 'sorveing state'.Nnfolz 06:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  "The Cherokee nation" refers to a collection of people who remain part of that nation wherever they go.  This can not refer to a sovereign state, because no land mass is defined that such a government would have full political control over.  "Puerto Rico" is an area of land.  Land does not have language or culture - only the people ON the land have this, and they take it with them if they go elsewhere.  So when the word "nation" is used to describe a land mass, the only possible interpretation is that of a sovereign state with total political control.  Thus the Puerto Rican People are a "nation" in the cultural sense, but the island that the Spindalis are the official bird of is not a nation, nor is the government that chose the Spindalis "national".  Finally, this distinction might not apply to the spanish word "Nación", which is why certain PR institutions refer to themselves as such. Algr 22:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: One last try at Consensus 

message: The following is to determine which would be the best pharse to describe the Puerto Rican Spindalis.  Please vote between "National" or "Official".  Arguments have already been placed (see above).  The consensus will last for a period of five days.  It is agreed that the final results will be respected by all particpants.
National Tony the Marine 14:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: <div class="center">Consensus</div>

message: How about calling it the State Bird of Puerto Rico. The term state applies to Puerto Rico in all levels, since the state is, by definition, the government of a place, no matter what the sovereingty of the place is (The Roman state, the state of Nevada, the Spanish state, ect) Also, as a commonwealth (which is know of a misnomer since in Spanish the term is Free and Associated State), we have State roads, State police, ect.Smylere Snape 02:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "State bird" can be justified using the same kind of dictionary interpretations as "National bird", such as you describe.  But that takes us to the same problem as "National bird" in the other direction.  Read in the context of an article that says nothing else about politics, it would imply that Puerto Rico is a US state.  (Yes some people will be fooled.  If everyone knew this stuff, we wouldn't need encyclopedias!)   Algr 03:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: State Bird?

message: Today is the 5th day of the poll. What now? Nnfolz 17:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Ok. It's just that you forgot to post the official starting date.Nnfolz 06:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  5th day 

message: A consensus has been reached, voting is now officially closed.
Final Results: "National": 8, "official": 1
It is suggested that the originator of the article place a footnote in regard to Puerto Rico's relationship with the United States.
As organizer of the consesus I would like to thank all those who participated in the same. Tony the Marine 19:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: <div class="center">Consesus Officially Closed</div>