Talk:Indian Chinese cuisine

message: Although the major features of the article are generally applicable to the entire range of cuisine, it was too "Mumbai-centric". One would get the opinion that Indian Chinese is available only in "Mumbai". I know this wasn't deliberate, but I've expanded the section to include other major metros which have an equally impressive (if not better) range of Indian Chinese restaurants. Take care, all. --Antorjal 23:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's focus on the entire cuisine 

message: I don't think this article's title clearly explains what it's about. A better title would be, Chinese cuisine in India. Unless someone has a major objection, or a better idea for an article title, I'll move it there on my next pass through. —Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 02:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there is any issue about the title. --GDibyendu (talk) 05:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Coming back to this many years later, I think I would agree, although obviously this is bringing my worldview bias to it. The opener took me a few tries to read and confirm - I think it currently says "Indian [version of] Chinese Cusine, and [the cuisine of] Chinese-Indian [people]" but it feels like there are several words missing. But if it makes sense for Indian people that probably works okay. Techhead7890 (talk) 07:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear title 

message: In a more general sense, I suppose my proposal for edits to for this article could be a "beefing up" of its contents. I'd like to look deeper into the origins of Indian Chinese cuisine: how relations both past and present, shared cultural influences and ideologies, and geography plays into the rise and existence of the food. Another aspect of geography is the influence of the two cultures--and thus arguably Indian Chinese food--upon other regions of South East Asia. I'd also possibly like to look at different aspects of the food's effects upon both India-China relations and understandings, as well as the views and understandings of the two cultures by other countries around the world. Indian Chinese cuisine has become, in nations outside of the two originators, a single cultural identity and thus this combined entity is a representation of a culture that is merely a limbo. Additionally, the demography of the Chinese in India and their reason for leaving is also interesting to me, as their diaspora led to Indian Chinese cuisine spreading throughout the world yet Indians still keep the tradition alive in their country as well. The food has assimilated to both cultural identities, forming an interestingly intimate relationship between two countries with past and present conflicts and disagreements. In a nutshell, I'd like to explore the outside influences upon Chinese-Indian relations leading to such an adapted cuisine such as history and general background; furthermore, I'd like to plan on adding a piece about cultural and political identity being shifted in some ways by this food. The two most populous nations on earth combine their very diverse and rich culinary practices together: sounds like the start of an incredible story! --my goal is to tell it in a more concise yet diverse way, including multiple perspectives from which to view this cultural and culinary trade.
Some preliminary sources I have found are listed below, I am not sure which do and do not comply with Wikipedia's guidelines and may need help refining the information to ensure my citations are properly credible:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/20th-century-international-relations-2085155/The-Six-Day-War
https://globalvoices.org/2020/02/16/indias-forgotten-persecution-against-chinese-migrants/
https://search.credoreference.com/content/entry/fofworld/buddhism_in_china/0
https://search.credoreference.com/content/entry/cupfood/v_b_2_southeast_asia/0
https://search.credoreference.com/content/entry/columency/indochina/0
https://www.niu.edu/clas/cseas/_pdf/lesson-plans/k-12/southeast-asian-food-culture.pdf
https://www.britannica.com/topic/education/Indian-influences-on-Asia
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352618117301257
https://www.thenational.ae/lifestyle/food/what-is-indian-chinese-food-an-in-depth-history-of-a-unique-hybrid-cuisine-1.885001
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/india-chinese-food-fusion/index.html
Furthermore, in reference to past comments--
I have looked into this idea of cross-cultural influence; however, it does seem that Indian Chinese food really did spring up and popularize merely within India, not spreading too much back to China. Nor is there much scholarly evidence pointing to Indians in China using their culinary practices to create Chinese food (as the curries of China are either Chinese Indian cuisine returning from India, or a simply more saucy, runny, dish). The only distinctly "Chinese" curries I could find were those popular in North America, hailing from a "Cantonese" and "Shanghainese" ancestor. See two sources below:
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Curry#Chinese_curry
In reference to the wanting an expansion and inclusivity of Indian Chinese cuisine, I hope to elaborate upon its spread and influence throughout the world--especially in the context of the Chinese Indians fleeing the subcontinent and taking their new culinary practices with them. Regarding the cooking styles, I will have to do more research, though I am sure I can find a more credible source with specifics upon each style and dish examples to more clearly and less-overwhelmingly accompany it.
Thanks all! I hope these edits will help improve the article, please let me know if you think any part of my plan is incorrect or missing anything!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atharenos (talk • contribs) 15:31, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to Make Changes and Additions to the Article 

message: I have just updated the sources and information for the lead and "Origins" section of this page. The "Features," "Dishes," and "Availability" sections, however, still need some revision and improvement. In the event that I cannot make these edits myself, I will leave some vital information behind for future editors to use in their writings and revisions.
Firstly, for the "Features" segment, there is both a lack of links as well as unreliable sources. There is only one source that the entire section draws upon, and it is an article from an Indian news source covering the food of a single restaurant--hardly a representation of the entire cuisine. Then again, it is a cuisine which is hard to define. I suggest looking through the articles I have linked under my suggestions for the "Dishes" segment and doing a more thorough summary: while the "Dishes" are a list of individual aspects and components compiled into specific plates, this "Features" tab should have the spices and sauces as well as ingredients listed in the "Dishes" section below. For example, the sauces or "gravies" mentioned, as well as their often being over rice or noodles accompanied by vegetables such as cabbage, peppers, and onions.
"Dishes" on the other hand, must be more precise and reserved. The listing of each dish and its components should be done in a more formally organized manner, like that which you may see in a cookbook, making it both easier to read and to write. "Dishes" and "Features" should share less in common, as it appears that some "Dishes" listed are components of cooking itself, for example the descriptions of specific gravies and sauces. For this, organizationally, I would suggest perhaps melding the sections together into a "Foods and Features" section with sub-categories of "Ingredients"--with the spices, sauces, gravies, and vegetables often used, perhaps as well as the noodle and rice components--and then a "Dishes" category listing the mains and desserts as before. For this segment, I found some nice reference articles:
https://qz.com/india/1420618/how-chinese-cuisine-became-indian-food/
https://www.vice.com/en/article/mgykeb/inside-the-birthplace-of-indian-chinese-cuisine
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/india-chinese-food-fusion/index.html
These first three provide a very broad tale of Indian-Chinese foods and dishes, including some lightly detailed examples (and accounts of the food's popularity within India). They are good to start with and use to pursue further research.
https://food.ndtv.com/food-drinks/indian-chinese-cuisine-indias-love-affair-with-chinese-food-1214445
Though perhaps not entirely reliable, this page offers some vital information regarding 10 integral Indian Chinese dishes. The website is one of India's most popular for finding recipes, stemming from an Indian TV media company which could possibly represent a reliable source in regard to authentic recipes. The dishes, described in simplistic detail, include "Chilli Chicken," "Manchurian," "Chowmein," "Manchow Soup," "Spring Rolls," "Szechwan," "Darsaan," "American Chop Suey," "Date Pancakes," and "Fried Rice." I believe that this website would provide some clarity to the informational list given currently on this Wiki page, as these are--as I have found through research--truly the most popular dishes of this cuisine (especially in India). This being said, further reference is likely needed.
I found the preview of a cookbook by Daphne Mah, who has owned her own Chinese restaurant and worked at one of Singapore's most esteemed Chinese eateries. Her husband being Indian, she describes in her book how their two culinary tastes have clashed and cooperated, noting their favorite recipes which utilize the Indian Chinese culinary methods and tastes. (Though the preview gives only the first 27 pages, it is enough to see at least some of the recipes and what she includes as far as ingredients and cooking methods to perform further research or to credit this chef particularly.)
(Here is a link to the preview--I do not recommend merely using this as a source but it is a great reference with which to start, especially due to the detail Indian Chinese cooking techniques and flavors require to be properly described and portrayed.)
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Asian-Indian-Chinese-Cookbook/dp/B086PTFPLF#reader_B086PTFPLF
Pages 9-10 feature "Chilli Paneer," 13-14 "Chicken Manchurian," 19-22 includes two general vegetarian fried rices, page 23 gives a brief introduction to "Schezwan" chili garlic sauce, and page 27 gives also a brief summary of the "Chicken Lollipop." These are starters, pointers to specific dishes to do further research on. It is the "trends" we look for in fusion foods which constitute the "main dishes." They are difficult to pinpoint; however, those which I have listed in this post seem to be some of the more popular dishes that I can find.
Finally, in the "Availability" segment there is a cry for further citations. The CNN article I posted above provides some information, and the QZ Indian news source provided also some excellent starting points for further research. It is important to identify the reasons Indian Chinese people had for leaving the nation as well, and the difficulty of this fusion food's evolution. The forbidden love Indian people have for a food whose origins lie in a country identified as an enemy. The friction behind this fusion is worth exploring, here are some sources for that:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/20th-century-international-relations-2085155/The-Six-Day-War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War
(The source listed on the Wikipedia article page titled "Food for Thought in India-China Ties" is also very good, however, it cannot be viewed by those without an account to the EBSCOhost database. This article--https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/lifestyle-culture/article/3094629/real-heat-india-china-ties-desi-chinese-food-sichuan--also speaks on some of the tensions surrounding Indian Chinese food in India, though it is not an exact replacement, it is another great place to start gathering information.
Additionally, the Indian Chinese food diaspora and why these foods are so popular internationally in nations such as Singapore, Canada, the United States, and Britain specifically, was influenced greatly by the Indian persecution of Chinese people. These nations were just some of the main areas to which the persecuted Chinese fled as they left India, due to the racist internment camps imposed upon those of Chinese association or ancestry following the Sino-Indian border wars. This is a key component to the spread of Indian Chinese food. Though the cuisine's popularity in India is undeniable, there is evidence of the food's influence in the perception of what defines Chinese and "Asian" food globally. This "Indian-style" of heavy doses of oil, chili, and other spices combined with vegetables like bell peppers and onions has in reality come to define much of the world's perception of what Chinese food is--as it is not only the Indians who enjoy greasy, bold flavors. These are just a few starting ideas, below is an article referencing the internment experience and its impacts upon the Chinese Indian population (a very brief and not entirely reliable source).
https://globalvoices.org/2020/02/16/indias-forgotten-persecution-against-chinese-migrants/
I also found these two articles:
https://openthemagazine.com/features/india/the-1962-jailing-of-chinese-indians/ (More on the internment of Chinese in India.)
http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=120697563&site=ehost-live (Many likely cannot access this, however below is an excerpt of the abstract referencing another point of influence of Indians on China. Hong-Kong food has distinctly more spicy, greasy, and heavy flavors than its other Canton relatives, perhaps because of these historical influences as well as those fleeing back to Guangdong from India, undoubtedly this turmoil also lead to people emigrating and bringing their culinary styles with them--leading perhaps to the "Hong-Kong" food which is seen in many American restaurants today, consisting sometimes of curry powders atop greasy, spicy noodles as seen in Indian Chinese cuisine.)
"The people of the Indo-Pak subcontinent, principally Punjabi Muslims, increased in Hong Kong as the British established firmly their colony there. They were working to the British government and firms in different capacities like Army Personnel, Police Constables, Prison Guards, Watchmen, etc. Though with the passage of time the role of Pakistanis decreased in army, police and prisons, their role as security guards and watchmen increased. Overall if we look at the history of Hong Kong we can notice that during the formative years of Hong Kong the Indian Subcontinent played a significant role in the maintenance of law and order and security of Hong Kong." --Syed Minhajul Hassan, FWU Journal of Social Sciences
(But please, if one does pursue this topic of spread and availability, do look into Indian Chinese foods which have spread outside of India as well, for example, not only those fusion restaurants labeled "Indian Chinese," but also looking at the influence of flavors and cooking methods upon eateries falling under the titles of "Chinese" or "Asian" also.)
There are so many interesting aspects of this cuisine to look into, however, I believe I have done all I can so far. I hope these suggestions help in the article's further improvement! Happy writing!
Atharenos (talk) 17:18, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources and Suggestions for Future Editors