Talk:List of major opera composers/Archive 2

message: [I am hoping we can reduce the size of the list to make it more practicable. - Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Now deleted - Kleinzach 14:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Having one great opera is no bar. There are other examples (Beethoven etc.). The question is simply whether S&D is great enough. I'm not convinced it is. - Kleinzach 22:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, then, couldn't the same be said for Leoncavallo and Mascagni?  Like both only really composed one notable opera each (Pagliacci and Cavalleria rusticana, yet they're still on the list.  As far as I'm concerned, Samson and Delilah is much greater to French Opera than the above two are for Italian opera. As well, if Samson and Delilah isn't on the list, why should Debussy be there?  Like, he only composed one complete opera (Pelléas et Mélisande). --Doublea 00:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pelléas et Mélisande is major IMO no qualification. On the other hand you are probably right regarding Leoncavallo and Mascagni. If you wanted to suggest deletion of these two (below and as part of the list), i wouldn't oppose it. Kleinzach 03:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted - Kleinzach 14:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Both composers of one famous opera. I like both a lot, but they weren't particularly groundbreaking and they have secondary importance in the repertoire. We have Gounod, Massenet and Bizet to represent the French composers of S-S's era; and for the Russian 19th century, we rightly have Glinka, Mussorgsky and Tchaikovsky.--Folantin 16:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted - Kleinzach 14:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Candidates for addition/deletion July 2006 (part 2)

message: Delete Leoncavallo- Doublea 
*Delete per nom. - Kleinzach 15:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hey, that's your second vote even if you are on the right side! Kleinzach 09:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted - Kleinzach 16:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I argued for the keeping of S-S (Samson and Deliah) and lost- like Leoncovallo and Mascagni, he only composed one notable opera.  So, if he's gone, than surely Mascagni and Leoncavallo have to go. --Doublea 20:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted by simple majority Any objections? - Kleinzach 04:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Result: not added - Kleinzach 04:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm surprised. Rimsky's The Golden Cockerel, The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya,  Sadko, The Snow Maiden , The Tale of Tsar Saltan, The Tsar's Bride  less performed abroad than Dvorak's Alfred, Armida, The Devil and Kate, Dimitrij, The Jacobin, Rusalka, Vanda! Surely this can't be so! The Mariinsky have been all over the world with R-K. - Kleinzach 16:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted: majority vote Any objections? - Kleinzach 04:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think it's shame that such a major Russian figure with so many operas with a toehold in the rep. has had to go! - Kleinzach 04:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I object.  I wonder if people considered his completions and editions of major Russian works besides his own.  Yes, his edition of Boris Godunov may be unfashionable now, but he got it into the international repertory. DrGeoduck 08:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but unfortunately you didn't vote, and even if you had we would have been in a minority 2 to 3. - Kleinzach 08:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted: majority vote Any objections? - Kleinzach 04:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted - Kleinzach 16:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Result: keep - Kleinzach 04:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Result: not added - Kleinzach 04:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Candidates for addition/deletion July 2006 (part 3)

message: Delete: Francis Poulenc It's a tough call but I think the least notable remaining composer on the list - apart from the names above - is Poulenc. So for the sake of a shorter list I put him up for deletion. Save him if you will! - Kleinzach 09:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Now deleted - Kleinzach 13:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted - Kleinzach 13:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Result: keep - Kleinzach 13:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: *Now deleted - Kleinzach 16:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Candidates for addition/deletion July 2006 (part 4)

message: Proposal: if we are going for a "minimal" list, I propose there should be a maximum of 35 composers on it.  --Folantin 11:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We now have 41 composers on the list with 10 proposed for deletion so we are getting close. - Kleinzach 16:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that having an arbitrary target number is a very good idea.  As has been said of the List of important operas, the argument is always about works or composers on the margin, so unless this list consists only of Mozart, Verdi, Wagner, Puccini, Strauss and a few others who can't be omitted, there are always going to be entries that are contentious for some. --GuillaumeTell 17:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I don't mind either way so long as this list is finished by the weekend. It's probably been a bit too time-consuming. At least we all seem to agree Gustave Charpentier shouldn't be on there! Sorry, Gustave...--Folantin 08:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We are now down to 39 (unanimous sayonara Leoncavallo/Meyerbeer). I think we are close to a viable grouping of major figures. - Kleinzach 16:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

text: We now have 36 - with four more still up for deletion (two or three of which I hope will survive). It's looking like a good list. - Kleinzach 04:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: I'm not staggeringly pleased to see Prokofiev on this list. I wouldn't call him a major opera composer. His stuff isn't so regularly performed and I don't see as his operas made a major contribution to opera history. Moreschi 22:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No strong opinion either way on Prokofiev, but Tchaikovsky and, above all, Beethoven should definitely stay. --Folantin 09:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep. In the Russian Opera tradition, I regard him as highly significant. Marc Shepherd 12:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep.  A great composer, and one who is still being performed. DrGeoduck 15:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep.  Mr. Moreschi has obviously never seen "the Fiery Angel"....Musikfabrik 21:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep.  Prokofiev is one of the great Russian opera composers.... Doublea 22:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep.  All of the above. --GuillaumeTell 07:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Keep. As I understand it, Prokofiev's War and Peace is central to the repertoire in Russia. We should try to guard against significance meaning "Significant in Anglophone areas." Dybryd 20:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Delete Prokofiev?

message: What do people think about cutting Offenbach? He wrote prmarily for operetta, but his operettas are more often performed by opera companies than those of other composers (Sullivan, for example), and Tales of Hoffmann is frequently performed...does he squeak in? I'm just creating this topic as a place for discussion, I don't have a strong opinion myself. Dybryd 20:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no really strong opinion either but I'd be inclined to keep him as a representative example of lighter opera to stand in for all the other such composers we've left out. He has a claim to originality and influence, being generally regarded as the inventor of operetta and, as you say, he has quite a few pieces in the mainstream international repertory, including one indisputably bona fide opera, Tales Of Hoffmann. On the other hand, as I've suggested above, a list of major operetta composers might be a good idea and Offenbach would probably be the biggest name on that rather than (arguably) the smallest name here. --Folantin 20:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm very leery of the idea of  using one composer to represent a major genre, and using him to block every other composer in that genre that may come along. There may be reasons to block the other composers in that genre, but "We condescended to include one. We need no others" is bad. Vanished user 20:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Delete Offenbach. He wrote only one work regularly performed by major opera companies, and that work (excellent though it is) was not particularly influential on other composers. Marc Shepherd 22:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cut Offenbach?

message: A few sources have been added to this article, including some by Moreschi and some by myself.  Any further statements made should include a source.  In addition, any statements currently already on this article should include a source. If statements are not sourced, they may be removed immediately. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence for more information.  Cordially Musikfabrik 21:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources