Talk:Moldovan language/Archive 1

message: :Below are discussions that were made prior to 05:25, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Link on an article on the census: (gardianul: in Romanian) Bogdan | Talk 12:35, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Older Comments

message: Decius, daca esti din RM, ar trebui ca sa preiei administratia Wikipediei Moldovenesti. In momentul de fata ea este tinuta de un Rus anti-Semit care se da a fi Jumate-Evreu( desi denegreaza Holocaustul) si Jumate-Moldovean. Dar el nici nu vorbeste Romaneste si traduce de pe internet din Engleza in Romana dupa care scrie versiunea Romana( bine inteles cu greseli) in alfabetul chirilic. NU este NPOV ca un administrator sa scrie intr-o limba pe care nici nu o stie. Du-te la discutia de pe pagina principala a Wikipediei Moldovenesti ca sa vezi despre ce vorbesc. Incercam ca sa votam aceasta wikipedie ori ptr. a fi data unui nou administrator ori ptr. a fi stearsa.
Cu respect,
Duca
Duca, mulţumesc pentru onoarea care m-ai accordato, dar pentru cǎ sânt prea ocupat cu alte proiecte, acum nu pot sǎ accept propunerea. Cu respect, Decius 16:22, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Decius 

message: In 1989, when Moldova started using the Romanian Latin alphabet, they used the same verision as the one used in Romania at the time. The change came in Romania only a few years later. 
However, the official version is not always respected, and this is true in both countries. For example, some Romanian newspapers use the old version (Evenimentul Zilei, Academia Catavencu among others), while some Moldovan newspapers use the new version. (Accente, Garda, etc) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 06:57, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "slightly-modified" 

message: Mihai, do you dispute that contact linguistic phenomena occur in Moldova? The recent version of the article doesn't try to classify them as before, but rather leaves it open, with a suggestion that it may be bilingual code switching.
The examples I gave are not from a Russian manuscript, they are from real life. While there may not be previous literature about contact phenomena in Moldova (at least not which you consider credible since you hate Russians and think everything they write must be lies), there is literature about bilingual code switching. If you read that article, you will find that it is relatively common in situations where both participants in a conversation are bilingual, regardless of languages involved. Thus, it's not a separate theory or even a stretch to say that it occurs in Moldova -- it occurs in nearly every country on Earth, in any large bilingual community.
Just because your nationalism tells you to delete anything which suggests anything about RM may be even a little bit different, doesn't mean it's right. Do you have justification against these examples? Again, they're not from Soviet literature.
Node 06:20, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of examples by Mihaitza 

message: Node, what's your problem with that section? You may interpret it as nationalistic, because that's your own bias, but it's freaking true, those are historical facts you can read about in all history books and encyclopedias in the world -- including Wikipedia, in other articles. You may say it has nothing to do here, that could be a possibly valid point, but I think it's only fair to give people a little background on what happened in the region, for a better understanding of the current situation. I can't say I'm sorry that history didn't happen more to your liking, because that would mean Moldova would be undisputed Russian land, which it isn't. But hey, that's what happened, we can't change it now. Forbidding that information being there would be similar to Al Quaeda members opposing the data in Economy of the United States, on account of it being nationalistically biased -- indeed, it looks good for Americans, but it's still true true data, so it's still there.
If you want to contest the accuracy of the data in that section, or the way it is presented, I'd be happy to discuss it. But please don't revert without discussing. --Gutza 18:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Beginnings of "Moldovan"

message: Now, I just realized I never made myself really clear regarding this dispute. My basic claim is that Moldovan is not even a dialect of Romanian, but rather a regional variety (not sure about the terminology, IANA linguist), on the same level of difference as the Romanian spoken in Transylvania, Oltenia or Moldavia (similar with the differences between Texan and Californian, for whoever else reads this). The dialects of Romanian are Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian, all of them a world away from Romanian in comparison with the Romanian language spoken in Rep Moldova. Moreover, I claim that spoken Moldovan is basically identicall in all aspects, including accent, with the language spoken in the Romanian part of Moldavia, with the only exception of having more Russian loanwords, and possibly few very non-essential regionalisms. Finally, I claim that the differences in writing between Romanian and the way Moldovan is regulated in Rep Moldova should not be categorized as a difference in spelling, but rather in ortography. A difference in spelling is the one between "color" and "colour", which resulted from the natural evolution of the language; the difference in writing between Moldovan and Romanian is simply an arbitrary matter of how the respective Academies regulated their written forms.
:How is "colour" vs "color" any different from "cât" vs "cît"? --Node 23:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Good. --Node 23:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Great. --Node 23:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

text: "Politically biased books"? I cited books by experts, none of them "communists", in fact they're all Americans. --Node 23:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Yes, there is. The entire first section of the article is dedicated to whittling away at whatever claims Moldovan may have as a distinct language, including the quote from Ion Barbuta. --Node 23:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

text: The way "Moldovan" is used in the literature, it would be accurate to say that it is spoken by the entire population of Moldova (if you are considering "Moldovan" as the full range of Daco-Romanian speech present in Moldova, however if you are considering only the "amalgamated" language, it would just be the population of urban areas). However, this is a dilemma because many of these people declare specifically that their native language is Romanian, while others declare their native language is Moldovan. One possible solution is to say that regardless of what they declare as their native language, most Moldovans can speak and understand both Moldovan and Romanian due to the large degree of mutual intelligibility. --Node 23:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Gutza, in this the literature and the experts disagree with you. "Moldovan" is usually used in the literature to describe any of a range of linguistic phenomena involving the Eastern Romance speech which is indigenous to Moldova. This goes from the official language, which is actually based on the speech of Bucharest rather than that of Chisinau, to the Russian/Daco-Romanian jargon used by some residents of urban areas. If you disagree with this, perhaps you should take the experts to task rather than myself? And don't say they're communists or biased or something, because I'm talking here about literature in English and German, not in Russian or Romanian, and it's mostly written by Americans and Western Europeans. --Node 01:52, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Gutza's Claims

message: Node, you keep on accusing Romanians of nationalism. That's subjective on your part, and more or less ad hominem -- you take advantage on knowing our ethnicity, and play on it. You're a self-declared Moldovan-born, IIRC. Can you tell us more on the topic of your ethnicity? Don't you think it would be fair if we also knew yours, in the context?  Thank you for your honesty. --Gutza 22:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I never claimed to have been born in Moldova, or any other European, Asian, African, or South American country for that matter. I have already discussed this in much more detail than I would have liked on mo.wiki. --Node 05:27, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Node's Ethnicity

message: Gutza called me over for my two cents.  So here it is ..
One of the duties of a linguistics-related article is to describe a language. Linguists call this descriptive linguistics, this is opposed to prescriptive linguistics where people are told how to speak a certain way (this was English class for us Americans, you Romanians probably had a class for your own language).  This is what using the "official" name is. It doesn't quite get the reality of the situation with Moldovan's writing systems. Yes, there is the government-sanctioned Latin alphabet, but that's not the whole story.
As an analogy, if for some reason tomorrow that the English-speaking world decided to use the Cyrillic alphabet, it would still be appropriate to list English along with  Инглиш.  Even after perhaps 15 or 20 years it would still be appropriate. There will still be people who still write and correspond with each other in the Latin script. And that is the case now with Moldovan.  
Also, I usually concern myself with the languages of the Philippines. Only my native languages, Tagalog and English, are recognized as the official languages of the Philippines. My grandmother's language, Bikol is not official. Thus there's no "official" way of writing it. Latin script is the de-facto script. So, official is not possible.  --Chris S. 02:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: PS: I forgot perhaps as another compromise - use a footnote ... and at the bottom of the infobox, explain what script is official and what is not. --Chris S. 02:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cyrillic

message: In Romania, instead of using code switching with Russian, like it is in Moldova, it is quite commonly used English. Well, I have a story related to this: some girl used my computer for reading her emails and unfortunatelly, she clicked OK on the browser's question on keeping password. Only later I realized that I had access to a email account of a Moldovan girl. Of course, it would be against my Wooster code of honour to violate someone's correspondence, but, sometimes we have to do it for the advance of science of linguistics. So, I analyzed the contents of some of her emails and was able to divide them in two categories: those that had a Romanian addressee were written in the usual Romanian with English phrases and words, while those that had a Moldovan addressee contained Romanian with Russian phrases and words. I found this rather amusing. :-)
Anonymously yours, 195.212.29.75 07:40, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  bilingual code switching 

message: Please provide the translation of the examples. mikka (t) 23:09, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mikkalai is referring to the examples of code-switching/Moldorussian slang. Since I do not know the meaning of these particular sentences, I may switch them out for different ones instead. --Node 19:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

text: 1) It's ok, if in parentheses. The phenomena discussed later in the article are unique to Moldova, and probably even to Chisinau and its suburbs. 2) Fine. 3) Fine --Node 19:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  bilingual switching 

message: See http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page. This is probably the first case in which politics is used for creating a language version of Wikipedia. Oleg Alexandrov 17:00, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia in Moldovan language 

message: Node_eu, I saw you added at the references section several links to blog entries or free homepages. Within the scope of Wikipedia, they are not valid references, as they are not reliable sources. See: Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Using online sources:
:personal websites, weblogs (blogs), bulletin boards, and Usenet posts are not acceptable as sources
bogdan | Talk 19:41, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: :For example, common slang among youngsters even of Romanian heritage uses "crasavic" to mean "beautiful" (from Russian красавец (m)/красавица (f)), where the official written language uses "frumos".
I'm not sure that it is a very common slang. I can find only two hits for the word "krasavitz" on the web (spelled "crasavic" there's none). bogdan | Talk 19:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Salut Bogdan, this misses a few things: the substitution of letters for numbers (eg krasav4k or kr4savik), the mixed usage of standard and nonstandard orthographies (krasavic), the purposeful substitution of certain letters (krsavek), and such things. However there are certainly words more common than tat. --Node 04:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Still not more than a couple Moldovan results... bogdan | Talk 08:08, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Colloquial 

message: Users 195.175.37.38, 195.175.37.8, and 202.69.200.15 blocked for 24 hours for persistent insertion of a huge historical piece that says nothing about language. This text belongs to the history of Moldova/Moldavia. Please learn the rules of wikipedia during this time. Please get rid of your paranoia and learn to cooperate. Otherwise you will be blocked indefinitely. 
Instead of calling names you have to explain in the talk page why you consider your changes relevant and important. I don't see any particular reason of addition of a huge historical passage that says nothing about language. For example, your "Greater Romania" addition will cause no objections in the History of Romania article (provided it is factually correct). mikka (t) 19:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know why these anonymous IP's are behaving so frantically. There is nothing to worry about: the only official difference between the written Moldovan language and the written Romanian language is that Moldovan still uses a certain diacritical character for some words, while Romanian now uses a different diacritic. However, before 1992, written Romanian was using the same diacritic for those words that Moldovan is now using. My message to the anonymous IP's: you are sabotaging your own position with your edit techniques, and you are providing 0% benefit. I sometimes even wonder whether these recent anonymous IP's are in fact sockpuppets operated by the Russian side, pretending to be Romanians and making comments like "revertd back you fucking American", which won't exactly be good for PR. Alexander 007 06:26, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "The Russian side"? If there's a Russian side here, they must be hidden, because I don't see them. I am Moldovan-American, Chris Sundita is Filipino-American. No russians here. --Node 15:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: You don't have to be Russian to be on the Russian side, my good boy. Alexander 007 11:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Users blocked

message: The following lines are very accurate:
----
:Moldovan, in its official form, is identical to Romanian, the official language of Romania and most people in the Republic of Moldova refer to the language most commonly as simply Romanian; according to latest Moldovan census, about 1.2 million (roughly 33%) people in Moldova (excluding Transnistria) declared "Moldovan" as their native language, while the rest considered themselves Romanian speakers. The Moldavian chronicler, Grigore Ureche (1590 - 1647), established in his "Letopiseţul Ţării Moldovei" (The Chronicles of the land of Moldavia) that Moldavian (Moldovan) and Wallachian (Romanian from Wallachia) are essentially the same language; and that Moldavians and Wallachians share the same ethnicity. 
:: This is very accurate, who argues this? 
----
::: I argue it. If you continue this, someone will protect the page again. --Node 07:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New disscusion on the first paragraph: '''Romanian language in Moldova?'''

message: The sentence read: 
:"...though this is inaccurate, if only in the sense that the Moldovan government officially terms the language Moldovan, not Romanian." 
User:Node ue without specifying a reason, removed this clause:
:"...if only in the sense that the Moldovan government offically terms the language Moldovan, not Romanian."
Perhaps there is confusion on his part. Let me remind readers that in English, the clause "if only in the sense that" or "if only because" does not preclude or discourage other reasons. See for example this sentence from Edward O. Wilson:
:"Man's destiny is to know, if only because societies with knowledge culturally dominate societies that lack it."
-If you want to change the current sentence, figure something out besides a surreptitious deletion. Alexander 007 16:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sentence

message: *Romanizators: И.О. Дическу-Дик, А.П. Дымбул, А.А. Залик, А.А. Николау, Н.Г. Плоештяну, Е.З. Арборе-Ралли, Е.И. Багров, В.П. Попович, Г.И. Старый 
*Originalists: И.И. Бадеев, Г.И. Бучушкан, Л.А. Мадан, И.А. Малай, И.В. Очинский 
AFAIK almost all of them were repressed. Are their names remembered? mikka (t) 07:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To: Romanizators and Originalists 

message: There exists not a State of Transnistria since is not internationally recognized. It must be accepted a neutral point of view like the OSCE see also the link[]. To state in the first paragraph that the Moldovan Transnistrian Republic exists is too much. There is no republic without a State and officially is not recognized by any country. A state is an organized political community occupying a definite territory, having an organized government, and possessing internal and external sovereignty. Recognition of the state's claim to independence by other states, enabling it to enter into international agreements. Anyway the status of the region is still in negotiation. Bonaparte  talk & contribs
:Bonaparte, please see de-facto. This argument has been had at this page before, and the text "de-facto independent state" won out over "region". There is no denying that the organs of Transnistrian government, although not recognised internationally, currently excersise complete control over the area of Transnistria. Despite blocades from (the rest of) Moldova, they have continued on independent of the control of the authorities in Chisinau.
:Now, PMR has a definite territory, and organised gov't, as well as internal and external sovreignity. It is not internationally recognised as independent from Moldova per se, but it has been recognised on a number of occasions as a political entity with control over the area which operates entirely independently of RM authorities in Chisinau. This is called de-facto recognition -- although the international community does not legally recognise their _claim_ to any territory, much of the international community recognises that, at the moment, they excersise control over that territory, operating independently of any other government. Your stringent requirements define a de-jure independent state, a state whose independence, as well as their territorial claims, are recognised fully by most of the international community ("most of" because for example Guatemala didn't recognise Belize until very recently despite the rest of the international community, Iran does not recognise Israel, etc etc.) --63.225.220.81 00:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: -Obviously, people in Transnistria strongly disagree with Bonaparte. Besides, there is a common expression "unrecognized state", ant there are plenty of them, too, see  Wikipedia:WikiProject Unrecognized countries. mikka (t) 00:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: there is not a State of Transnistria

message: Anonymous user, Node_ue, Bonaparte... We're getting nowhere. 
# Anonymous user, stop personal attacks. You're not helping here.
# Node_ue, your version is not factually accurate.
# Bonaparte, your version is not neutral.
I'm thinking of how to make a version acceptable by both sides, but I think that is a tough job. :-) bogdan | Talk 22:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bogdan, after the most recent defamatory post, I don't see how this conflict can be resolved peacefully. Before that, some of the arguments were silly and bordering on hurtful sometimes, but at that point I was still willing to forgive. For now, the fate of this article should be put on hold, until the interpersonal conflict has been resolved (most likely via an RfAr or a few RfArs even). Otherwise, it will continue to exacerbate said conflict, and the issues on this page will become even more distorted by the simultaneous interpersonal conflict. --Node 23:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anonymous user, Node_ue, Bonaparte... 

message: I am not going to play games here. Bonaparte blocked for one week for escalation of personal engagement after second warning. mikka (t) 22:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Mikka, I appreciate this action. However, for such a severe action on his part, I'm going to open an RfAr and cross my fingers for a more severe sanction. --Node 23:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bonaparte blocked 

message: : In Moldova, there is also a separate, non-official orthography which is often used for IM, chat, SMS, and other such purposes by young people. In it, "ca", "că", "chi", "cî", "cu", "che", and "co" all use "k" rather than "c" or "ch"; official ţ and ş become "tz" and "sh", respectively, and diacritics are left off of ă and î.
The k/sh/tz spelling on SMS / IM / Internet is the same as in Romania, so it's not a Moldovan-only feature. bogdan | Talk 23:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Bogdan, in my experience, it is more common in Romania to simply use the letters without diacritics, rather than use the different spellings (k/sh/tz). In addition, words are often spelt as pronounced in such contexts, which is quite often different from in Bucureshti (such as kiatra, kijama, etc). "gi" is sometimes even spelt as "ji" or "dji" even though it doesn't use a diacritic. --Node 23:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  SMS / IM spelling 

message: Well, after this might fighting, I thought we should open a more light-hearted topic so that people can relax a bit. I thought, why not gather all the guys and talk about women! I'll start first. I like women to be natural (not much make-up) and I like them to be feminine, but not submissive. To use an example, I think Angelina Jolie is cool. What about you guys? --Anittas 00:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, although this is completely irrelevant to the page, I will respond anyhow for obvious reasons. I, for one, like Ayu, Yanzi, Wax, Jennifer Peña... however, I imagine that if I were actually _attracted_ to women in a great degree, I'd be attracted to Angelina Jolie aswell -- she has very large breasts, and doesn't seem to like clothing very much. --Node 02:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  True Moldavians like women, thus, this relates to Moldovan language. I don't like Angelina for her big breasts. In fact, I like the breasts to be medium sized. I like her lips and eyes, and her attitude. She's cool. --Anittas 04:58, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women 

message: Well, after this fighting, I figured it might help unwind a bit if we all talked a bit about G-d and our common cultural heritage through Judaism. I think we should start with our denominations. I am reform, but non-practicing and really consider myself an atheist. So, are you guys Reform, Conservative, Orthodox...? And what ethnic group? I'm Ashkenazic. --Node 02:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Mikka, I'll catch you up. This is part of Anittas' continued attempts to defame me by asking me why I hate women, what problem I have with women, and things about women in general. I personally do not mind it, and I actually think it's quite funny if a tad ignorant aswell. The root of this is Anittas' contempt for homosexuality. (as you can see, Bonaparte called me a "jew" and a "faggot", both of which are essentially true although I wouldn't say them like that) --Node 03:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's the whole point: I am not interested to know this. And what is more important, article talk pages are not intended for this. I guess you did't fopllow my advide above in bold. The best way to deal with offenses is to ignore them. And you have right to remove them from talk pages. Although I usually don't do this: I prefer to keep track how a rude person makes fool of themselves. mikka (t) 04:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mikka, chill out, dude. It's not cool to be so totalitarian. Node, I just asked a question, that's all. I didn't mention your name, or anything. As for religions, I don't like them - especially organized religion. I'm agnostic. What about you, Mikka? --Anittas 05:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Denomination