Talk:Antisemitism/Archive 8

message: This article is interesting, but it reminds me of a book I read some years back called (IIRC) "Why the Jews," and I believe Dennis Prager was one of two authors. It similarly explored Jews being disliked for allegedly killing Christ, or because they are perceived to be prosperous, or because many refuse to assimilate, or (the opposite tack) they are communists, so they want to assimilate too much, and so on, and so on.
But none of this seems at all satisfying and I believe the issue is diluted by looking for all kinds of material reasons. There are many ethnicities in the world that are disliked. I have especially met a few people from Europe who seemed to have a "book" on virtually every other country (but their own): "these people are stupid, these other people are aggressive, these other people are thieves," etc.
:The self vs. others argument. Yes, every group with social rules that prevents mingling with another group gets persecuted. Ronabop 09:53, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Er, what? No jews in england? Huh? Ronabop 09:53, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: Whoa. I suggest you re-learn your jewish-japanese history. During the holocaust, one of the few nations that was accepting jewish refugees was japan (odd, but true). Japanese jews exist. Ronabop 09:53, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: I think you're on base, as far as people who don't assimilate into a culture being hated. What is odd about anti-semitism is that even when, for example, a group assimilates, Jews are often still hated. Jews have adopted cultural trappings all over the world, come in every color and language that the human race does, and are still being vilified. An anti-semite, to paraphrase an old joke, is a person who treats another human as being different, but only after they discover that the other human goes to a jewish worship service. Ronabop 09:53, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Core of anti-Semitism?

message: Toytoy's edit accuses Jews of inviting anti-semitism by discriminating against all peoples who might want to become Jews. There are two sides to this.
One side is the issue that Judiasm is not only a religion. There are black, and oriental, and other etnicities who are Jews, either born or converted. But you cannot be become ethnically Jewish (if you accept that there is such a thing as "Jewish ethnicity"--Hitler thought so) in the sense that one can convert to Buddhism, but one cannot convert to being ethnically Chinese.
The religious aspect is the more interesting part. Judaism is, at core, a proseletyzing religion, it's in the OT. But Jews learned after many years that this wasn't such a good idea; not the least because so many nations and societies made Jewish seeking of converts punishable by death. So today even many Jews do not realize that Judaism's rejection of easy conversion is not inherent in the religion. And still, anyone can convert to religious Judaism, but it is a tough road to follow. As to intermarriage, most religions deem intermarriage (at least outside the religious tradition) as negative. I personally knew a Catholic who was formally excommunicated (bell, book and candle) for marrying a Presbyterian. Some Jewish groups feel especially threatened by intermarriage out of a not unrealistic fear that Jews will intermarry the religion out of existence, as more than half the Jews who marry in the U.S. now marry out of the religion. This is a political fear, essentially, not a matter of religious bigotry. Cecropia 18:33, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have converted to Judaism, you are considered a Jew like all others. You may be confused by the fact that the Orthodox branch of Judaism does not usually accept Reform converts (that is, those who converted to Judaism with a Reformist rabbi and synagogue). But there have been converts to Judaism from many, many different nations on Earth. Cema 06:09, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: There are no Hittites in this world any more, but many Lebanese consider themselves Phoenicians, and I think have a right to do so. :-) Cema 06:09, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews rejecting converts 

message: This para begins "Since the reign of the Casimir the Great." Was the name actually a title (like Tsar) or is the use of "the" before "Casimir" a simple error of grammar? Didn't want to change it without knowing. Cecropia 16:03, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Query on Anti-Semitism in Poland 

message: I have removed the following text:
:Others, however, deny that criticism of Israel (and Zionism) necessarily represents anti-Semitism.  According to this view, when criticism of Israel is purely political in nature, it does not condemn the Jews. According to some, the overreaction of some Jewish groups means the dilution and abuse of the term anti-Semitism, that should be attributed only to hatred of Jews and dangerous and criminal acts, not to opinions about a nation's politics. The possibility exists that by labelling any criticism on Israel as anti-Semitic, some critics may indeed develop an anti-Semitic view in response.
This text was a deliberately dishonest straw-man argument that has been debunked many times before. No mainstream Jewish group hold such a position. In fact, on numerous occasions many Jewish groups themselves have publicly criticised the policies of different Israeli governments. More to the point, public statements by leaders of many Jewish groups clearly state that disagreement with Israel is not in of itself anti-Semitic.  The only people making such claims are anti-Semites. Even the Anti-Defamation League, a pro-Jewish and pro-Zionist organization, has publicly stated that criticism of Israel is not, if of itself, anti-Semitism. 
:"Criticism of particular Israeli actions or policies in and of itself does not constitute anti-Semitism. Certainly the sovereign State of Israel can be legitimately criticized just like any other country in the world. However, it is undeniable that there are those whose criticism of Israel or of "Zionism" is used to mask anti-Semitism." (Anti-Defamation League website.)
In fact, the ADL itself publicly and strongly criticised the Knesset (Parliament) of the State of Israel for one its bills vis-a-vis the crisis with the Palestinians.  So let's stop the strawman claims.
* ADL Rebukes Knesset Law
It is hateful to fabricate positions which the Jewish community does not have, and then attack the Jews for these non-existent beliefs, and then blame the Jews for the resulting anti-Semitic feelings which may result! This kind of behaviour is not acceptable in an encyclopedia. RK 15:39, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
:Fact is that the argument has been made and as long as the article doesn't pass any judgement on its validity, it belongs there. -- Dissident 22:46, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: (sigh) I taught Vogel a new word and he  goes to town with it. Yes, Anti-Semitism is a misnomer, it's a misnomer coined by a racist Jew-hater in the 19th century to describe his beliefs. The word caught on and was propagated by other Jew-haters. To imply that the Jews are responsible for the misnomer is ahistorical. AndyL 18:10, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation of deletion of a straw-man attack