Talk:University of Wisconsin/Archive 3

message: From the above discussion:
Same as it still does. To most people, the kind of people who would be using this encyclopedia, it means that place in Madison. If you press them on it, they will say, "Oh, yeah, I guess all of the UW-thisandthat schools are 'Universities of Wisconsin'; but plain old 'University of Wisconsin' means UW: the Badgers." It is possible that diplomas may still have said generically 'University of Wisconsin'; I neither know nor care, since I don't think that legalisms impressed much of anybody in 1970 or now. UWM had abandoned the red &white and the Cardinals nickname long since, in favor of the Panthers and the black & gold.--Orange Mike 14:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In that nobody speaks, I'll put the above version up and see how it goes. Andrewa 15:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current meanings revisited

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
#Support as nominator. See Talk:University of Wisconsin/Archive 2 for previous discussion. Andrewa 22:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment I graduated from University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. When people talk about my education, they usually say I graduated from University of Wisconsin and don't bother to add the dash. I think it may be also the case for graduates from other UW campuses. Nobody really cares about this kind of thing, because University of Wisconsin refers to the UW system to many people. Miaers 14:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The truth is that people consistently say, "I graduated from the University of Wisconsin when they graduated from Madison and say, "I graduated from UW-Milwaukee, or UWM", when they mean Milwaukee.  It rarely, if ever, happens that someone refers to the University of Wisconsin System outside of the context of the Extension or the group of universities; everyone identifies the specific campus when talking about their college experience.  Cheers, PaddyM 00:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The thing is that people like to say I graduated from University of Wisconsin, even though I told them I graduated from University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. I think people like to call UW-Madison University of Wisconsin for the same reason. They just don't like to add the dash. Miaers 14:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: CommentThere is no university in the UW system show see also at the top and the previous move was made by an administrator after extensive dissussion. What the heck are you talking about? Miaers 14:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm talking about the See also at the top of the current UW-Madison page.  It directs people to see the disambig page if they are on the wrong one.  Cheers, PaddyM 15:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I really don't see how your arguement works here. :/ Miaers 15:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment User:Madmaxmarchhare, if you graduated from Madison, don't make POV comments on other UW univeristies. I found a history brief from the official website of the UW system history brief of UW system. You can have a look, if you have any difficulty in understanding UW history. Miaers 15:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miaers.. throughout all of this, I've tried to determine just who you think you are. God? Maybe.. but not the one I worship. No matter what powers and knowledge you've convinced yourself you have, you have NO POWER over me--I will comment on whatever I see fit. Using your logic, you shouldn't comment at all about this situation either since you gradauted from the "University of Wisconsin" :-/ as well. (Also, believe it or not, it isn't necessary to object to every "oppose" statement because it goes against your support--people can see what you're all above through your posts elsewhere. And, yes, I graduated from the Madison campus, which is the _sixth_ school I've gradauted from in as many states.) Madmaxmarchhare 15:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Historically, the institution formed by Madison, Milwaukee, Greenbay and Parkside campuses were also called Unviersity of Wisconsin. Miaers 14:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miaers.. I dunno... We've tried this again and again.. think of it this way... when  someone who doesn't understand what you're saying, saying the _same_thing_ louder or repeating it doesn't necessarily get it done (think of the stereotypical joke of someone yelling at someone who doesn't speak English in the hopes that they will "get it"). What is "the institution" that was called "University of Wisconsin" that was "formed" when these four schools did whatever they did? Madmaxmarchhare 15:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: See the above website, I provided. Let's see who can't understand English. Miaers 15:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hold on, Miaers.. I'll get to it when I finish reading what's written on my six diplomas... it's gonna take awhile. Madmaxmarchhare 15:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miaers is right: there was a period from 1956 to 1971 when the other three listed institutions were firmly under the control of the Madison institution and there was no U.W. System as we know it. Technically, diplomas from the other schools said just UW, etc. That is the four-school item he is talking about. The 1971 creation of the U.W. system was the first time that the Milwaukee, Green Bay and Parkside campuses got autonomy. Right after the creation of UWM, for example, all the faculty were technically faculty of the same institution, etc., as if Milwaukee was just the East Campus of the "real" University of Wisconsin; and I suspect that diplomas from that era just said UW, regardless of what campus you attended. This loss of autonomy (compared to the Wis.StateU.-Milwaukee days) was a sore point for some time here (the other two schools were created de novis, so there was less of a sense of loss). --Orange Mike 23:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Orangemike, thanks for the explanation. That's all I was really looking for, and I don't think that the disambig explanation ever really clearly stated what you've just put down here. I still think the sentence should have some more detail such as provided. I never had any doubt that _something_ happened around that time, it was just never very clear from the original explanation. Madmaxmarchhare 23:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Comment The website of the UW System actually use wisconsin.edu. According to your logic, only UW System can be called Wisconsin. Miaers 14:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Comment The thing about Univeristy of Wisconsin disambiguation that makes the guideline inappropriate here is that all these Universities belong to the same single entity UW System. They are all under the same board of regents and employees receive their W2 from the same place. Miaers 21:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: #Support as nominator. See Talk:University of Wisconsin/Archive 2 for previous discussion. Andrewa 22:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in support of the move

message: 1.  Oppose Most people in the US, or even the world, refer to the University of Wisconsin-Madison as only "University of Wisconsin." I doubt that most people even know that it is really called the University of Wisconsin-Madison. I definitely couldn't tell you which campus the Minnesota Gophers hail from; I only know that it is called the University of Minnesota. If people are searching for the well-known University of Wisconsin, they should be redirected to the University of Wisconsin-Madison, instead of searching through a disambiguation or University System page. I vote that we leave this as a disambiguation page, and redirect "University of Wisconsin" to "University of Wisconsin-Madison", and put the "redirect" template notice at the top of the UW-Madison page. – Lordmontu (talk) • (contribs) 03:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment I graduated from University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. When people talk about my education, they usually say I graduated from University of Wisconsin and don't bother to add the dash. I think it may be also the case for graduates from other UW campuses. Nobody really cares about this kind of thing, because University of Wisconsin refers to the UW system to many people. Miaers 14:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The truth is that people consistently say, "I graduated from the University of Wisconsin when they graduated from Madison and say, "I graduated from UW-Milwaukee, or UWM", when they mean Milwaukee.  It rarely, if ever, happens that someone refers to the University of Wisconsin System outside of the context of the Extension or the group of universities; everyone identifies the specific campus when talking about their college experience.  Cheers, PaddyM 00:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The thing is that people like to say I graduated from University of Wisconsin, even though I told them I graduated from University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. I think people like to call UW-Madison University of Wisconsin for the same reason. They just don't like to add the dash. Miaers 14:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: CommentThere is no university in the UW system show see also at the top and the previous move was made by an administrator after extensive dissussion. What the heck are you talking about? Miaers 14:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm talking about the See also at the top of the current UW-Madison page.  It directs people to see the disambig page if they are on the wrong one.  Cheers, PaddyM 15:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I really don't see how your arguement works here. :/ Miaers 15:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comment User:Madmaxmarchhare, if you graduated from Madison, don't make POV comments on other UW univeristies. I found a history brief from the official website of the UW system history brief of UW system. You can have a look, if you have any difficulty in understanding UW history. Miaers 15:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miaers.. throughout all of this, I've tried to determine just who you think you are. God? Maybe.. but not the one I worship. No matter what powers and knowledge you've convinced yourself you have, you have NO POWER over me--I will comment on whatever I see fit. Using your logic, you shouldn't comment at all about this situation either since you gradauted from the "University of Wisconsin" :-/ as well. (Also, believe it or not, it isn't necessary to object to every "oppose" statement because it goes against your support--people can see what you're all above through your posts elsewhere. And, yes, I graduated from the Madison campus, which is the _sixth_ school I've gradauted from in as many states.) Madmaxmarchhare 15:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Historically, the institution formed by Madison, Milwaukee, Greenbay and Parkside campuses were also called Unviersity of Wisconsin. Miaers 14:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miaers.. I dunno... We've tried this again and again.. think of it this way... when  someone who doesn't understand what you're saying, saying the _same_thing_ louder or repeating it doesn't necessarily get it done (think of the stereotypical joke of someone yelling at someone who doesn't speak English in the hopes that they will "get it"). What is "the institution" that was called "University of Wisconsin" that was "formed" when these four schools did whatever they did? Madmaxmarchhare 15:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: See the above website, I provided. Let's see who can't understand English. Miaers 15:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hold on, Miaers.. I'll get to it when I finish reading what's written on my six diplomas... it's gonna take awhile. Madmaxmarchhare 15:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Miaers is right: there was a period from 1956 to 1971 when the other three listed institutions were firmly under the control of the Madison institution and there was no U.W. System as we know it. Technically, diplomas from the other schools said just UW, etc. That is the four-school item he is talking about. The 1971 creation of the U.W. system was the first time that the Milwaukee, Green Bay and Parkside campuses got autonomy. Right after the creation of UWM, for example, all the faculty were technically faculty of the same institution, etc., as if Milwaukee was just the East Campus of the "real" University of Wisconsin; and I suspect that diplomas from that era just said UW, regardless of what campus you attended. This loss of autonomy (compared to the Wis.StateU.-Milwaukee days) was a sore point for some time here (the other two schools were created de novis, so there was less of a sense of loss). --Orange Mike 23:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Orangemike, thanks for the explanation. That's all I was really looking for, and I don't think that the disambig explanation ever really clearly stated what you've just put down here. I still think the sentence should have some more detail such as provided. I never had any doubt that _something_ happened around that time, it was just never very clear from the original explanation. Madmaxmarchhare 23:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Comment The website of the UW System actually use wisconsin.edu. According to your logic, only UW System can be called Wisconsin. Miaers 14:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Comment The thing about Univeristy of Wisconsin disambiguation that makes the guideline inappropriate here is that all these Universities belong to the same single entity UW System. They are all under the same board of regents and employees receive their W2 from the same place. Miaers 21:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in opposition to the move

message: Looking at other states system and what the article title or the redirect for University of (statename) goes to. 
===== Articles that go to an article about the main/flagship campus =====
#University of Alabama
#University of Arkansas
#University of Maine
#University of Minnesota
#University of Missouri
#University of Montana
#University of Nebraska
#University of Nevada
#University of South Carolina
#University of Tennessee
#University of Texas
To be fair, in this regard, some of these states don't have other campuses or campuses that are notable enough to merit their own article. 205.157.110.11 03:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is pointless to use university that has only one campus as examples here. Miaers 14:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. The type main (or only) is a strange mixture. The case of a university with only one campus is radically different to that of a university with several campuses in which the redirect points to one of them. Andrewa 05:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, so strongly that I have removed the listings for those "only" schools (some of which, such as Connecticut, have multiple campuses as part of the same institution). After doing so, the numbers are very different indeed!--Orange Mike 23:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Most of the above examples don't have merit here, because most of them have small number of small unknown campuses besides the main campus. Things are quite different for the University of Wisconsin case, which has a second large doctoral institution and many well known small campuses, plus historical reasons.Miaers 00:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other States University articles 

message: #University of Alabama
#University of Arkansas
#University of Maine
#University of Minnesota
#University of Missouri
#University of Montana
#University of Nebraska
#University of Nevada
#University of South Carolina
#University of Tennessee
#University of Texas
To be fair, in this regard, some of these states don't have other campuses or campuses that are notable enough to merit their own article. 205.157.110.11 03:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is pointless to use university that has only one campus as examples here. Miaers 14:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. The type main (or only) is a strange mixture. The case of a university with only one campus is radically different to that of a university with several campuses in which the redirect points to one of them. Andrewa 05:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, so strongly that I have removed the listings for those "only" schools (some of which, such as Connecticut, have multiple campuses as part of the same institution). After doing so, the numbers are very different indeed!--Orange Mike 23:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Most of the above examples don't have merit here, because most of them have small number of small unknown campuses besides the main campus. Things are quite different for the University of Wisconsin case, which has a second large doctoral institution and many well known small campuses, plus historical reasons.Miaers 00:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Articles that go to an article about the main/flagship campus'''<br> 

message: #University of Alaska
#University of California
#University of Delaware
#University of Hawaii
#University of Illinois
#Indiana University
#University of Massachusetts
#University of North Carolina
#University of Oklahoma
Note: I went through these somewhat quickly so if I made an error, feel free to correct. 205.157.110.11 03:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Articles that go to a page about the University System 

message: User:Lordmontu says above (in voting to oppose the move):
Most people in the US, or even the world, refer to the University of Wisconsin-Madison as only "University of Wisconsin." I doubt that most people even know that it is really called the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
This was discussed at some length at least three times previously, and there were strong views expressed both ways (and by people from Wisconsin). See above for the previous round, and Talk:University of Wisconsin/Archive 2 for the one before that. 
The previous consensus was that, in particular contexts, the name meant different things, but that in many contexts it was quite unambiguous. Unfortunately, some of these unambiguous contexts were one way, and some the other. That's what the now-deleted content from the disambiguation page was trying to express. Andrewa 04:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is the name really ambiguous?

message: User:PaddyM says above (in voting to oppose the move):
to have University of Wisconsin go directly to the disambig page is counterintuitive
I think that's because you don't think that the term University of Wisconsin is ambiguous at all. And that was what we found last time etc. too. Most people have a clear idea of what the term means, and many have strong opinions that their meaning is the only one. The trouble is, there are several different opinions as to what this meaning should be! And that's why, even if we  don't move the disambig back to University of Wisconsin, we should at least point the redir from there to the disambig.
But I'd much prefer that the disambig was back at University of Wisconsin. That seems to most accurately reflect the situation. Andrewa 05:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Counterintuitive?

message: Articles about the main campus of a university system should always has a "see also the .... system" at its top, whether the "Universit of ...." article is directed to the system or the main campus. It is the duty of the more known main campus to showcase other campus in the system to the world and let people better know the reality. There should definitely a "See also University of Wisconsin System" at the top of the UW-Madison article no matter what. However, there is a unique thing about "University of Wisconsin" is that it can refer to a 4-campus instiution in addition to the system and the main campus {source from UW System website). That will leave us no choice but to make "University of Wisconsin" an ambiguous page, because it is not appropriate to put both "See also University of Wisconsin System" and a disambiguation redirect at the top of the article at the same time. User:Andrewa did exactly this after extensive discussion. But some inexperience editor changed this format without any regards to previous discussion and wikipedian editor's decision. This move definitely should be reverted. 
Also University of Wisconsin is one of the world largest university system. All the universities in the system is part of the single UW system entity. Madison campus is just part of it. University of Wisconsin can't be directed to the Madison campus. Miaers 01:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The University of Wisconsin isn't that unique. Right next door there's the University of Minnesota. "University of Minnesota" formally denotes the whole statewide system of 4 (maybe 5) campuses, but the article is about the University of Minnesota--Twin Cities. University of Minnesota system describes all of the U. of MN campuses, and links to University of Minnesota Duluth, University of Minnesota Crookston, and University of Minnesota Morris. I have no idea if the system's history is as complex as Wisconsin's; it's definitely not as large. However, I think there might be something to that "Minnesota nice" idea, because I don't see any acerbic discussions about whether there should be a disambig page et al. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, the history of University of Minnesota system is not as complicated and well talked about as that of UW system, which was created by the merger between the former 4 campus University of Wisconsin and the former Wisconsin State Universities. Second, there are only small number of campuses in the University of Minnesota system and the non-main campuses are all small and unknown. They are quite different from UW system. Anyway, Unviersity of Wisconsin shouldn't redirect to UW-Madison because UW-Madison doesn't overwhem other UW campuses and there are also reasons I mentioned above. Miaers 03:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Articles about the main campus of a university system