Talk:Yakov Estrin

message: Gaige or "Oxford companion to chess" present him like a grandmaster. The following sources object to that statement calling him IM only. I believe that Gaige is wrong.
* Anatoly Karpov : Chess: an encyclopedic dictionary, Sovyetskaya encyclopediya, Moscow 1990, page 511, ISBN 5-85270-005-3 (in Russian)
* Willy Iclicki: FIDE Golden book 1924-2002. Euroadria, Slovenia, 2002, S. 92
* Olimpbase ELO lists  Dsds55 (talk) 13:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Sources say that he was awarded the GM title in 1984, when he was 60 or 61, so it was probably honorary instead of earned.  Bubba73 (You talkin' to me?), 14:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, not a great achiever at over-the-board chess, but a few players were awarded these 'emeritus' titles in the early eighties and you would imagine Estrin would be the perfect candidate - a long standing IM, GMC and ex-world Champ at Correspondence. Iclicki's Golden Book is very error-prone and Mr Bartelski (Olimpbase) deals with so much data, I'd be surprised if there weren't a few errors creeping in here and there - in fact, Estrin's Olimpbase entry for 1984 does acknowledge that some data is missing. If Whyld and Gaige (Guinness Chess; The Records and Chess Personalia) both think he was made a GM in 1984, then that's quite compelling evidence, I'd say; it's not like his name could be confused with another that is similar. Brittle heaven (talk) 16:39, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: See the German wikipedia list of honorary GMs: de:Liste der Ehren-Großmeister im Schach.  I'm not sure what they use as data sources, but their list of GMs is more complete than ours.  Sometimes Gaige indicates honorary titles in Chess Personalia, but Estrin is listed just as "GM 1984" so clearly the book doesn't always make this distinction.  If we get a good source we should indicate in the article that the 1984 GM title award was honorary.   I actually think the titles infobox should list the title years, so Estrin should have multiple title entries: IMC 1965, GMC 1966, IM 1975, HGM 1984.  (Or maybe GMH 1984—I'm not sure there's a standard abbreviation for the honorary/emeritus titles.)  Quale (talk) 21:22, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  His IM title might be honorary too - he was about 52 when he got it - old for becoming an IM. Bubba73 (You talkin' to me?), 21:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

text: I must agree that the weight of evidence is shifting away from Gaige/Whyld. I can't find anything that positively corroborates the 1984 GM award. For instance, British Chess Magazine mirrors what you say of the Krogius (Thessaloniki 1984 FIDE Congress) report. It even states that honorary GM titles were bestowed on Puc and Book. BCM's obituary for Estrin in 1987 again gives no mention of a GM title, yet mentions Alatortsev's honorary GM title in his obituary on the same page. Brittle heaven (talk) 00:51, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then I suggest that we take out the GM title text but put in a footnote that a few sources say that he got the honorary GM title in 1984.  Bubba73 (You talkin' to me?), 02:28, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I found one link from BCM with GM title mentioned. Dsds55 (talk) 05:31, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, that's confusing.  The BCM reference you found was published in 1988, which certainly means that it didn't get the GM title claim from Wikipedia.  Gaige's Chess Personalia was published in 1987, so the BCM article could have taken it from there.  In fact I think Hooper & Whyld probably took the 1984 GM title claim from Gaige, which means that all the GM title claims might actually stem from one source. Based on your research I think you are right and the 1984 GM title claim that I reinserted into the article is an error.  I was going to suggest that we change the text to indicate the 1975 IM title and footnote it to explain that a small number of sources (Gaige and Hooper & Whyld) indicate that Estrin was made a GM in 1984, but that the GM title is not supported by most sources.  Russian sources (list the sources) show that he received only the IM title for over-the-board play, and reports of the 55th FIDE Congress (Thessaloniki 1984) (list the reports) say that only Puc and Book received honorary GM titles that year.  Now I'm not sure what to suggest.  Thanks Dsds55 for your diligent research trying to make sure that we get this right.  Quale (talk) 02:20, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree.  Bubba73 (You talkin' to me?), 03:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Whyld's Guinness Chess: The Records was however published in 1986 and so pre-dates Chess Personalia. All a bit mystifying, as both authors have reputations for meticulous and exacting work. Meanwhile, I should add that the FIDE Rating lists (from Sahovski Informator, 1984-1988) all give Estrin as an IM only. My BCM reference for the Thessaloniki FIDE Congress report was April 1985, p. 159, should anyone want to include it in a footnote. Brittle heaven (talk) 20:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Gaige may have shared early drafts of Chess Personalia in facsimile.  I seem to recall seeing a reference to at least one of Gaige's books being shared with others before publication.  Admittedly this is just speculation, but Whyld is certainly someone Gaige may have afforded that courtesy.  Quale (talk) 03:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The sources I used were Krogius report (Nikolai Krogius, "At the FIDE Congress", 64 - Chess Review, 2/85, pp. 2-3), Estrin`s obituary (Chess in the USSR, 4/87, p. 29) and his book "The King's Gambit" (Igor Glazkov and Jakov Ėstrin, Korolevskij gambit, Moskva, Fizkultura i Sport, 1988, p. 4) Dsds55 (talk) 10:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  GM title