Talk:Palestinians/Archive 8

message: ===Genetic Evidence for the Ancestry of Palestinians===
Haplogroup J (Y-DNA)(previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is one of more than 150 Haplogroups found in humans around the world. It is group of genes on the Y Male chromosome and represent a Paternal ancestry that originated in the Levant in the middle East 10000 years ago. Haplogroup J1 is a sub Haplogroup J found mainly in Arabs ( meaning people from Arabic countries including Palestinians have the highest percentage of this Haplogroup on their Y chromosomes in the world). The recently discovered genetic signature in J1 known as The Cohen Modal Haplotype found only in Jewish people of Cohenite ancestry ( ie the claimants to be descendents of Aaron among jews worldwide). J1 haplogroup became a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period (Semino et al. 2004)[].
A genetic study by (Nebel et al. 2000) of Hadasa Hospital (Jerusalem University)[] found another signature in J1 termed the Modal Haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) that is considered a marker of moslem Arab population in North Israel (Galilee). Later He and many reseachers found the same signature (MH Galilee) in several Arabic countries (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen). A quote from the study by Nebel reads "The highest frequency of Eu10 (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001). The most frequent Eu10 microsatellite haplotype in NW Africans is identical to a modal haplotype (DYS19-14, DYS388-17, DYS390-23, DYS391-11, DYS392-11, DYS393-12) of Moslem Arabs who live in a small area in the north of Israel, the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000). This haplotype, which is present in the Galilee at 18.5%, was termed the modal haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) (Nebel et al. 2000). Notably, it is absent from two distinct non-Arab Middle Eastern populations, Jews and Muslim Kurds, both of whom have significant Eu10 frequencies—18% and 12%, respectively (Nebel et al. 2001). Interestingly, this modal haplotype is also the most frequent haplotype (11 [~41%] of 27 individuals) in the population from the town of Sena, in Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Its single-step neighbor is the most common haplotype of the Yemeni Hadramaut sample (5 [~10%] of 49 chromosomes; Thomas et al. 2000). The presence of this particular modal haplotype at a significant frequency in three separate geographic locales (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen) makes independent genetic-drift events unlikely." Palestinians have 39% of J1 second only to Beduins in Arabic countries.
I am pretty sure the above is not OR as Tewfik stated in a short edit summary, thus I have moved it to the talk page.  I was reading through the sources provided and they mention explicitly the Palestinian Arab popluation, especially with regards to the Eu10 frequencies.  It should be cut down because some of the contextual connections are not necessary, the author of the above is probably a professor/academic type who wants to describe the full academic context.  Tewfik's accusations of OR seems completely out of place though.  --64.230.120.196 18:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also this article should be renamed "Palestinian Arabs" or a similar article should be created.  --64.230.120.196 18:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that.  --GHcool 20:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Are you insinuating that Jews living in the Land of Israel before Zionism (if that's what you mean under "first aliyah") were actually Arabs? Beit Or 17:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (not related to this debate) I didn't know the two words 'Arab' and 'Jew' were mutually exclusive... are they? Ramallite (talk) 18:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an interesting question.  My stepmother is a Jew that traces her ancestry to Iraq.  She is clearly a Mizrahi Jew, but is she an Arab? I say she is, but she insists that she is not.  Her family spoke Arabic, they are a Semitic people, they lived in the Middle East for hundreds (thousands?) of years.  If somebody can explain to me why my stepmother is not equally an Arab Jew and a Mizrahi Jew (she cannot without using ethnocentrism) in the same way that a someone can call themselves an Ashkenazi Jew and a Russian Jew, I would be very greatful.  --GHcool 20:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Well you always hear "Arab Muslims" and "Christian Arabs". I know I hear "Arab Jews" a lot in my own environment, especially when describing "50% of the population of Israel" or people like Amir Peretz or Yitzhak Mordechai and others. But the Jewish people are also a nation as well as a religion. In that sense, they are like Armenians. Armenians live dispersed in many countries, and consider themselves Armenian as well as French or Lebanese or American or whatever.  Ramallite (talk) 21:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, in essence all Jews living in Arab lands were Arabs just as Persian Jews were Persians and German Jews were German (regardless of what the Nazis believed). They spoke the language, culturally were very similar if not identical and historical records show that many Jews converted to Islam so there is no doubt a wide variety of intrinsic relations. Of course, since the creation of Israel that identity has shifted to a "Jewish" one, which for some people has been a religious identification (many Austrian Jews for example viewed themselves as Austrians first and Jews second as was also the case with many Berber Jews). They are today like the Armenians etc. in that they view themselves as both a religious and an ethnic group (but this too varies from person to person). It's also just as viable to view Jews as Iraqi Jews, Persian Jews, Cochin Jews, etc. If they were historically from Palestine, then they would be Arab Jews and Palestinians like the Muslims and Christians though. Tombseye 18:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're projecting modern nationalities too far back into the past. I know that's way history came to be revised in Europe beginnign from the 19th century when historians suddenly saw Germans, Dutch, Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Russians etc. in the Middle Ages, but unfortunately, that was agenda-driven revisionism rather than serious scholarship. True, many German Jews thought of themselves as Germans of Jewish faith. However, this line of thinking only emerged somewhere in the mid-19th century together with the notion of German and other nationalities in Europe. Panarabism and local Arab nationalisms emrged only in the 20th century. Speaking of "nationalities" in the Middle East before that time is anachronistic. Before the notion of nationality was imported from Europe, one could only speak of religions, tribes, and ethnicities. Ethnically, Jews never qualified as Arabs. I can see another claim here, that "Of course, since the creation of Israel that identity has shifted to a "Jewish" one". The sentence implies that Jews living in Arab lands identified as Arabs (or Arabs first, Jews second). This is again a fantasy. Traditional Muslim societies were organized strictly along religious lines with Muslims, Jews, Christians etc. forming well-identified and separated communities. In those societies, Arabs were defined as Muslims who trace their paternal line to the inhabitants of the Arab peninsula. Granted, many Muslims were able to forge their genealogies to prove they were Arabs, but otherwise it was well known who among the Muslims were Arabs and who were not, since the division had legal implications (for example, for marriage). To say that Jews of Muslim lands identified as Arabs is makes no sense: they wouldn't have been allowed to do so, even some of them had wanted to. Beit Or 08:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The phrase "Arab Jews" was very common in the late 19th and first part of the 20th century and is fairly common in academic literature still today.  I don't think it was generally used to denote a genetic connection, but rather to describe Jews who were Arab in culture, language, etc.. The dispute about the phrase seems to be mostly a result of Zionist ideology.  As Ella Shohat wrote ("The Invention of the Mizrahim", J. Pal. Studies, Vol. 29 (1999), pp. 5-20): "official Israeli/Zionist policy urges Arab Jews (or, more generally, Oriental Jews, also known as Sephardim or Mizrahim) to see their only real identity as Jewish. The official ideology denies the Arabness of Arab Jews, positing Arabness and Jewishness as irreconcilable opposites. For Zionism, this Arabness, the product of millennial cohabitation, is merely a Diasporic stain to be "cleansed" through assimilation. Within Zionist ideology, the very term "Arab Jew" is an oxymoron and a misnomer, a conceptual impossibility. ... in the case of Middle Eastern Jews, the Euro-Israeli separation of the "Jewish" and "Middle Eastern" parts has ideologically facilitated the actual dismantling of the Jewish communities of the Muslim world, while pressuring the Oriental Jews in Israel to realign their identity according to Zionist Euro-Israeli paradigms." (Not sure how this relates to the present article, though.)  --Zerotalk 09:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "Arab Jews" is no more problematic than phrases "American Jews", "Russian Jews", or "Persian Jews". The problem is rather the idea, advocated by some editors here, that Jews of Arab lands could be legitimately called "Arabs". This idea is largely based on the anachronistic and otherwise unjustified projection of the modern European concept of nationality onto the pre-modern Orient. Beit Or 09:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All nationalisms are based upon the modern "European" definition anyway so it's not a question of projecting, but simply what is. Now how would say Arabs who are pagan and Christian and Jewish then exist if not as a collective group called Arabs? Muhammad appears to have viewed the Jews of Medina as a religious group, but they were also Arab tribes. The application of the term "Arab" is itself difficult to define. For many people it's simply someone who speaks Arabic and often Arabs from Arabia look at people from the Maghrib (not just the Berbers) as non-Arab as well. Who then is the Arab and how much of a factor is religion. In fact, the question is not one of universal acceptance, but rather of what is. Were German Jews any less German just because Hitler viewed them as non-Germans? Yet we're all digressing here as the question is the Palestinian people and that should be a group that covers all of the people who live and lived in the area regardless of religion, which was really my main point. Tombseye 00:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This talk page is not an appropriate place to discuss your personal opinions on miscellaneous unrelated issues. Beit Or 07:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because you don't agree with me does not me it's a "personal opinion". My history professor discussed the Jews of the Arab world so it's actually an academic opinion whereas your views appear to more less opinions. Tombseye 01:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Genetics additions

message: Haplogroup J (Y-DNA)(previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is one of more than 150 Haplogroups found in humans around the world. It is group of genes on the Y Male chromosome and represent a Paternal ancestry that originated in the Levant in the middle East 10000 years ago. Haplogroup J1 is a sub Haplogroup J found mainly in Arabs ( meaning people from Arabic countries including Palestinians have the highest percentage of this Haplogroup on their Y chromosomes in the world). The recently discovered genetic signature in J1 known as The Cohen Modal Haplotype found only in Jewish people of Cohenite ancestry ( ie the claimants to be descendents of Aaron among jews worldwide). J1 haplogroup became a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period (Semino et al. 2004)[].
A genetic study by (Nebel et al. 2000) of Hadasa Hospital (Jerusalem University)[] found another signature in J1 termed the Modal Haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) that is considered a marker of moslem Arab population in North Israel (Galilee). Later He and many reseachers found the same signature (MH Galilee) in several Arabic countries (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen). A quote from the study by Nebel reads "The highest frequency of Eu10 (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001). The most frequent Eu10 microsatellite haplotype in NW Africans is identical to a modal haplotype (DYS19-14, DYS388-17, DYS390-23, DYS391-11, DYS392-11, DYS393-12) of Moslem Arabs who live in a small area in the north of Israel, the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000). This haplotype, which is present in the Galilee at 18.5%, was termed the modal haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) (Nebel et al. 2000). Notably, it is absent from two distinct non-Arab Middle Eastern populations, Jews and Muslim Kurds, both of whom have significant Eu10 frequencies—18% and 12%, respectively (Nebel et al. 2001). Interestingly, this modal haplotype is also the most frequent haplotype (11 [~41%] of 27 individuals) in the population from the town of Sena, in Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Its single-step neighbor is the most common haplotype of the Yemeni Hadramaut sample (5 [~10%] of 49 chromosomes; Thomas et al. 2000). The presence of this particular modal haplotype at a significant frequency in three separate geographic locales (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen) makes independent genetic-drift events unlikely." Palestinians have 39% of J1 second only to Beduins in Arabic countries.
</blockquote>
I am pretty sure the above is not OR as Tewfik stated in a short edit summary, thus I have moved it to the talk page.  I was reading through the sources provided and they mention explicitly the Palestinian Arab popluation, especially with regards to the Eu10 frequencies.  It should be cut down because some of the contextual connections are not necessary, the author of the above is probably a professor/academic type who wants to describe the full academic context.  Tewfik's accusations of OR seems completely out of place though.  --64.230.120.196 18:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also this article should be renamed "Palestinian Arabs" or a similar article should be created.  --64.230.120.196 18:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I second that.  --GHcool 20:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Are you insinuating that Jews living in the Land of Israel before Zionism (if that's what you mean under "first aliyah") were actually Arabs? Beit Or 17:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: (not related to this debate) I didn't know the two words 'Arab' and 'Jew' were mutually exclusive... are they? Ramallite (talk) 18:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an interesting question.  My stepmother is a Jew that traces her ancestry to Iraq.  She is clearly a Mizrahi Jew, but is she an Arab? I say she is, but she insists that she is not.  Her family spoke Arabic, they are a Semitic people, they lived in the Middle East for hundreds (thousands?) of years.  If somebody can explain to me why my stepmother is not equally an Arab Jew and a Mizrahi Jew (she cannot without using ethnocentrism) in the same way that a someone can call themselves an Ashkenazi Jew and a Russian Jew, I would be very greatful.  --GHcool 20:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Well you always hear "Arab Muslims" and "Christian Arabs". I know I hear "Arab Jews" a lot in my own environment, especially when describing "50% of the population of Israel" or people like Amir Peretz or Yitzhak Mordechai and others. But the Jewish people are also a nation as well as a religion. In that sense, they are like Armenians. Armenians live dispersed in many countries, and consider themselves Armenian as well as French or Lebanese or American or whatever.  Ramallite (talk) 21:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, in essence all Jews living in Arab lands were Arabs just as Persian Jews were Persians and German Jews were German (regardless of what the Nazis believed). They spoke the language, culturally were very similar if not identical and historical records show that many Jews converted to Islam so there is no doubt a wide variety of intrinsic relations. Of course, since the creation of Israel that identity has shifted to a "Jewish" one, which for some people has been a religious identification (many Austrian Jews for example viewed themselves as Austrians first and Jews second as was also the case with many Berber Jews). They are today like the Armenians etc. in that they view themselves as both a religious and an ethnic group (but this too varies from person to person). It's also just as viable to view Jews as Iraqi Jews, Persian Jews, Cochin Jews, etc. If they were historically from Palestine, then they would be Arab Jews and Palestinians like the Muslims and Christians though. Tombseye 18:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're projecting modern nationalities too far back into the past. I know that's way history came to be revised in Europe beginnign from the 19th century when historians suddenly saw Germans, Dutch, Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Russians etc. in the Middle Ages, but unfortunately, that was agenda-driven revisionism rather than serious scholarship. True, many German Jews thought of themselves as Germans of Jewish faith. However, this line of thinking only emerged somewhere in the mid-19th century together with the notion of German and other nationalities in Europe. Panarabism and local Arab nationalisms emrged only in the 20th century. Speaking of "nationalities" in the Middle East before that time is anachronistic. Before the notion of nationality was imported from Europe, one could only speak of religions, tribes, and ethnicities. Ethnically, Jews never qualified as Arabs. I can see another claim here, that "Of course, since the creation of Israel that identity has shifted to a "Jewish" one". The sentence implies that Jews living in Arab lands identified as Arabs (or Arabs first, Jews second). This is again a fantasy. Traditional Muslim societies were organized strictly along religious lines with Muslims, Jews, Christians etc. forming well-identified and separated communities. In those societies, Arabs were defined as Muslims who trace their paternal line to the inhabitants of the Arab peninsula. Granted, many Muslims were able to forge their genealogies to prove they were Arabs, but otherwise it was well known who among the Muslims were Arabs and who were not, since the division had legal implications (for example, for marriage). To say that Jews of Muslim lands identified as Arabs is makes no sense: they wouldn't have been allowed to do so, even some of them had wanted to. Beit Or 08:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The phrase "Arab Jews" was very common in the late 19th and first part of the 20th century and is fairly common in academic literature still today.  I don't think it was generally used to denote a genetic connection, but rather to describe Jews who were Arab in culture, language, etc.. The dispute about the phrase seems to be mostly a result of Zionist ideology.  As Ella Shohat wrote ("The Invention of the Mizrahim", J. Pal. Studies, Vol. 29 (1999), pp. 5-20): "official Israeli/Zionist policy urges Arab Jews (or, more generally, Oriental Jews, also known as Sephardim or Mizrahim) to see their only real identity as Jewish. The official ideology denies the Arabness of Arab Jews, positing Arabness and Jewishness as irreconcilable opposites. For Zionism, this Arabness, the product of millennial cohabitation, is merely a Diasporic stain to be "cleansed" through assimilation. Within Zionist ideology, the very term "Arab Jew" is an oxymoron and a misnomer, a conceptual impossibility. ... in the case of Middle Eastern Jews, the Euro-Israeli separation of the "Jewish" and "Middle Eastern" parts has ideologically facilitated the actual dismantling of the Jewish communities of the Muslim world, while pressuring the Oriental Jews in Israel to realign their identity according to Zionist Euro-Israeli paradigms." (Not sure how this relates to the present article, though.)  --Zerotalk 09:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase "Arab Jews" is no more problematic than phrases "American Jews", "Russian Jews", or "Persian Jews". The problem is rather the idea, advocated by some editors here, that Jews of Arab lands could be legitimately called "Arabs". This idea is largely based on the anachronistic and otherwise unjustified projection of the modern European concept of nationality onto the pre-modern Orient. Beit Or 09:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All nationalisms are based upon the modern "European" definition anyway so it's not a question of projecting, but simply what is. Now how would say Arabs who are pagan and Christian and Jewish then exist if not as a collective group called Arabs? Muhammad appears to have viewed the Jews of Medina as a religious group, but they were also Arab tribes. The application of the term "Arab" is itself difficult to define. For many people it's simply someone who speaks Arabic and often Arabs from Arabia look at people from the Maghrib (not just the Berbers) as non-Arab as well. Who then is the Arab and how much of a factor is religion. In fact, the question is not one of universal acceptance, but rather of what is. Were German Jews any less German just because Hitler viewed them as non-Germans? Yet we're all digressing here as the question is the Palestinian people and that should be a group that covers all of the people who live and lived in the area regardless of religion, which was really my main point. Tombseye 00:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This talk page is not an appropriate place to discuss your personal opinions on miscellaneous unrelated issues. Beit Or 07:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just because you don't agree with me does not me it's a "personal opinion". My history professor discussed the Jews of the Arab world so it's actually an academic opinion whereas your views appear to more less opinions. Tombseye 01:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Genetic Evidence for the Ancestry of Palestinians

message: It has genetically been proven that ancestrally, the Palestinians descend from all the indigenous Semitic groups that have lived in Palestine for the past several millennia, including the Philistines, the Canaanites, the Hebrews themselves, and other groups. The Jews of Israel today are closer to the Palestinians then the Palestinians are to the people of Saudi Arabia. This should prove that just as the Iraqis descend from Arabized Assyrians and Babylonian, the Lebanese descend from Arabized Phoenicians and the Egyptians descend from Arabized Pharonic Egyptians and Greco-Romans, the Palestinians descend from Arabized Hebrews and Canaanites. This makes them very much indigenous to that country and have as much a right to it as the Israelis if not a stronger right. Ironically, there are groups of Jews such as the Beta Israel from Ethiopia and the Bene Menashe from northeast India who have no Semitic ancestry whatsoever, and yet live in Israel in perfect harmony with all rights, priveleges, etc. Bnei Menashe in particulary have settlement rights in the West Bank. If you ask me, the Palestinian peasant has full right over that land and the Bnei Menashe should just go back to his native hills in Northeast India, rather then settle on a claim that for all we know was partially concocted by British imperialists or made up by a tribal chieftain to gain favor with missionaries or some other religious-motivated reason. Afghan Historian 03:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This talk page is not the place for expressing personal opinions advocating ethnic cleansing (i.e. "the Bnei Menashe should just go back to his native hills in Northeast India."). --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 04:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Mperel's comment here is totally uncalled for. It would be enough to ask User:Afghan Historian to state the relationship f his comments to the talk page. He didn't adovcate "ethnic cleansing", he expressed a controversial opinion that a group of recent immigrant to Israel go back home. It might be bad taste for some, but it certainly isn't advocacy for a war crime. I don't think more hyperbole here is necessarily the best repsonse. With respect. Tiamut 12:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks for your friendly advice. Tiamut 04:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Palestinians genetic links to the country

message: --J intela 04:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isn't the actual population of the west bank and gaza strip only 2.5 million? 

message: I think this is a weasel and thus have marked it as such. My attempt at change was reverted. Lobbuss 08:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your change was reverted because it constituted vandalism. Please familiarize yourself with WP:NPOV. You are claiming that NK represents Orthodox Jews. Let me tell you that I am NOT a Zionist. My seforim include Vayoel Moshe and Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTemuroh, which are great seforim and in which I fully believe. I am affiliated with the Edah HaChareidis. You do not need to suspect me of being a Tzioni. But you can suspect me of wanting to keep Wikipedia a civilized place, where facts and only facts are to be written. Most Palestinian Jews nowadays do identify as Israelis, and not just the non-religious. And Neturei Karta does not represent 'Orthodox Jews'. NK is a tiny fringe group even in Meah Sheorim. Most Yerushalmi people that I know do not want to have anything to do with them and consider them to be total outcasts. That includes people affiliated with all other groups in Yerushalaim including Dushinsky, Satmar, Toldos Aharon, Anshei Yerushalaim, Yerushalmi Litvaks, and Yerushalmi Lubavitchers. --Bear and Dragon 09:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: weasel Today, Palestinian Jews generally identify as "Israelis".