Talk:Creationism/Archive 15

message: Ec5618 just reverted added text.  I just wanted to state that in addition to the reason given for reverting I was about to revert the new text as commentary and not factual. - Tεxτurε 22:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why aren't there any illustrations of people riding dinosaurs in the article? I saw them at a museum and know they are real, otherwise they would not have been there. It's obviously been overlooked. Somebody should remedy this immediately!--Blockhead 23:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert by Ec5618 

message: I've removed the second half of the opening paragraph for discussion.  I don't understand what it means by equating "literal" with "physical", who it's supposed to be describing, what the metric is for determining what is "general", what the "spiritual nature" of human beings is supposed to be as a "foundation", or what it means by "declaring other views" ignorant and materialistic.  So, I'm assuming that this is a point of view.
 While the belief may be interpreted "literally" (i.e. in physical terms), religious discussion is generally limited to a spiritual meaning. Hence "creationism" simply emphasizes the spiritual nature of human beings, claiming such spiritual nature to be the foundation of all nature, and declaring other views to be materialistic and ignorant of 
spiritual concepts.
Also, the demiurge idea really doesn't belong in the introduction, does it? Especially the intro practically equated creation from pre-existing chaos with demiurge, which strikes me as very odd. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:40, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  intro explanation 

message: Different historical cultures and religions believed that the earth was created on different dates. Many historical calendars were based on these dates.	 
* Jewish - 25 September or March 29 3760 BCE 
* Christian - Sept/Oct 4004 BCE
* Maya - August 11 or August 13, 3114 BCE
* Byzantine Empire - September 1, 5509 BCE
Could we move this list somewehere else? Origin beliefs perhaps? It seems a waste to just delete it. 
One question though: on what are these dates based? Are they clear from scripture, or have them been deduced by scolars? -- Ec5618 14:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is somewhere else: Dating creation. Joshuaschroeder 14:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recently removed from this article: Creation Dates 

message: Sorry, I forgot to log in when making the edit.
I removed:
Because it was horribly out of context:
:"To distinguish the belief that individual "kinds" of higher organisms were created by divine intervention in the natural order, from the belief that the Universe (and its contents) was created by God, the former is sometimes referred to as special creation."
Because I was unable to find the work by this man 'in the article section below':
:"Also, when one looks at the early Church the majority view was the creationist view as shown by a work by Robert I. Bradshaw given in the article section below." -- Ec5618 16:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed from article 

message: Propose placing Intelligent Design as a separate root section. Most practioners of Intelligent Design consider the use of "creationism" as pejorative or an insult. Categorizing ID under "creationism" or "neo-creationism" is considered provocative pejorative efforts by critics to tar ID with the term "creationism" and discredit it without addressing its claims.
In the principle of NPOV, propose making Intelligent Design a separate section and not grouped under "Creationism" categories.
Make Intelligent Design a separate section in the grouping bar on the right.'''
Good start Silva. I edited your paragraph as follows:
Intelligent Design 
"Intelligent design (ID) is a metatheory that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1] Proponents seek to formulate scientific theories based on intelligent design to have equal footing with naturalistic scientific theories regarding the origin of life.[3]
Intelligent Design focuses on empirical methods of distinguishing intelligent from natural causes. Intelligent Design (ID) contrasts itself to modern-day creationism. ID is agnostic in that it assumes the identity of an Intelligent Designer cannot be determined from objective examination of the evidence. 
Instead of adopting a personal (often literal) interpretation of the origin of life based on one's religious text, 
Intelligent Designers hold to come to the conclusion that life originated by an Intelligent designer from lines of inquiry in genetics, mathematics, biochemistry, and other areas of science. Critics allege that Intelligent Design is masquerading as a contender to Darwinism, and that its' purpose is to relegitamize creationism. However, the concept of intelligent cause to the universe and life traces back to antiquity. Most founders of modern science believed in an intelligent cause to the universe and life." DLH 16:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intelligent Design Section

message: Does anyone know why creationists have advocated changes in the teaching of biology in the United States, but have not advocated changes in the teaching of physics?  (If creationists have actually advocated changesin the teaching of physics, this has not received much publicity which raises two other questions (1) do creationists dedicate less' time to changing physics education?  If so, why?  Or, if they dedicate the same amount of energy, why has the press not picked up on it)?  I am curious, but since we recognize the politicsl dimension of ecreationism (i.e. that it is part of a political struggle), it seems to me that some article should cover this.  If not this article, which one? Slrubenstein   |  Talk 21:55, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: They don't focus on implementing changes in physics as much because it isn't as vital for their political agenda as biology is.  Origins is a more popular subject for discussion in biology classes, so that's what they allocate their energy and resources towards.  I could go into great detail with this...yes...excellent idea for an article.  Standing by.  Salva 00:59, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  question about educational reform 

message: Can someone help me out verify this? Is there a denotative expression about the following? "the Bible teaches that only Life begets life and that death is a result of sin"
:"Only life begets life" - Louis Pasteur - http://www.grisda.org/origins/12005.htm
:Death & Sin - see http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20010713_49.asp RossNixon 00:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verification 

message: Would the person who transcribed the quotes into the ID section ("our strategy has been to change the subject a bit..." and "this (the ID movement) isn't really, and never has been a debate about science..."), or someone else who knows whence the quotes came, be willing to include citations in the article? --Jay (Histrion) 18:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations for ID quotes 

message: Ec5618 seems to be taking credit for my work. I removed creationism in pop culture, not him.
:Which is why I said, in my edit summary: "I left out creationism in popculture. It serves no purpose, and is not even amusing" as opposed to: "I removed creationism in popculture. It serves no purpose, and is not even amusing". Never mind though. Take some credit. -- Ec5618 07:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creationism in Pop Culture 

message: would you like to publish this article? -- Zondor 22:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't disrupt the wiki. --FOo 01:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  publication 

message: This page's editors are tolerating a blatant POV (as well as a duplicate link, which is against Wikipedia policy). My recent edit to bring it into conformity with Wikipedia policy was instantly reverted by User:Duncharris Not wishing to get into an edit war, I am instead placing a tag on the section. Pollinator 20:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The link is to talk.origins list of creationist websites.  Whatever you think about talk.origins archive, the page that it refers to is neutral — it just lists the sites and does a job much better than we ever could since WP:NOT a link farm.  That they encourage people to visit such sites and familiarise themselves with them speaks volumes when the creationists don't do similar.  Please remember NPOV#Pseudoscience; the mainstream point of view has priority.  — Dunc|☺ 20:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't distort the issue. It's not one of priority, pseudoscience or whatever. I'm not arguing for creationism, (which has several variations). I'm arguing violations of Wikipedia NPOV, as well as double linking. Pollinator 01:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Given the above by Duncharis, where is your NPOV argument? --Stephan Schulz 10:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

text: His beef is that the TO archive is already linked, but given the subsequent links are to a different and very relevant section, its OK.  --JPotter 23:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: From Kenneth R. Miller Finding Darwin's God; 1999; ISBN: 0060175931; p.xi:
:Yet evolution also remains a point of concern and controversy, because it deals with the greatest of all mysteries, our own origins, and our human place in nature. The institutions of religion had once claimed solutions to these mysteries as their own, and the notion that natural science might find its own answers to such questions stirred immediate conflict. Darwin felt the conflict clearly, and attached three quotations to serve as epigraphs to the later editions of Origin. Each tells us something about Darwin's view of the proper relationship between religion and natural science, but the third, from Francis Bacon's Advancement of Learning, is particularly revealing: 
::To conclude, therefore, let no man out of a weak conceit of sobriety, or an ill-applied moderation, think or maintain, that a man can search too far or be too well-studied in the book of G-D's word, or in the book of G-D's works; divinity or philosophy; but rather let men endeavor an endless progress or proficiency in both. 
:In no small way, my purpose in writing this book has been to argue that Darwin chose exceptionally well when he selected this quotation. 
=== Two World Views ===
From Kenneth R. Miller Finding Darwin's God; p. 173
:Ken, you're intelligent, you're well-meaning, and you're energetic. But you are also young, and you don't realize what's at stake. In a question of such importance, scientific data aren't the ultimate authority. Even you know that science is wrong sometimes."  
:Indeed I did. Henry M. Morris continued so that I could get a feeling for  what that ultimate authority was. "Scripture  tells  us what the right conclusion is. And if science, momentarily, doesn't agree with it, then we have to keep working until we get the right answer. But I have no doubts as to what that answer will be." Morris then excused himself, and I was left to ponder what he had  said. I had sat down thinking the man a charlatan, but I left appreciating the depth, the power, and the sincerity of his convictions. Nonetheless, however one might admire Morris's strength of character, convictions that allow science to be bent beyond recognition are not merely unjustified—they are dangerous in the intellectual and even in the moral sense, because they corrupt and compromise the integrity of human reason. 
:My impromptu breakfast with Morris taught me an important lesson—the appeal of creationism is emotional {Peace-of-Mind invested in God}, not scientific; {Two World Views}. I might be able to lay out graphs and  charts and diagrams, to cite laboratory experiments and field observations, to describe the details of one evolutionary sequence after another, but to the true believers of creationism, these would all be sound and fury, signifying nothing. The truth would always be some where else. 
 
 
Yesselman 01:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finding Darwin's God 

message: From Kenneth R. Miller Finding Darwin's God; p. 173
:Ken, you're intelligent, you're well-meaning, and you're energetic. But you are also young, and you don't realize what's at stake. In a question of such importance, scientific data aren't the ultimate authority. Even you know that science is wrong sometimes."  
:Indeed I did. Henry M. Morris continued so that I could get a feeling for  what that ultimate authority was. "Scripture  tells  us what the right conclusion is. And if science, momentarily, doesn't agree with it, then we have to keep working until we get the right answer. But I have no doubts as to what that answer will be." Morris then excused himself, and I was left to ponder what he had  said. I had sat down thinking the man a charlatan, but I left appreciating the depth, the power, and the sincerity of his convictions. Nonetheless, however one might admire Morris's strength of character, convictions that allow science to be bent beyond recognition are not merely unjustified—they are dangerous in the intellectual and even in the moral sense, because they corrupt and compromise the integrity of human reason. 
:My impromptu breakfast with Morris taught me an important lesson—the appeal of creationism is emotional {Peace-of-Mind invested in God}, not scientific; {Two World Views}. I might be able to lay out graphs and  charts and diagrams, to cite laboratory experiments and field observations, to describe the details of one evolutionary sequence after another, but to the true believers of creationism, these would all be sound and fury, signifying nothing. The truth would always be some where else. 
 
 
Yesselman 01:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two World Views 

message: I have changed Day-age creationism into Day–age creationism once. It seemed more correct to me with the en-dash. What do you think? --Rtc 21:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  spelling 

message: The opening of the article reads
"In Abrahamic religions, creationism or creation theology is the origin belief that humans, life, the Earth, and the universe were created by a supreme being or deity's supernatural intervention. The intervention may be seen either as an act of creation from nothing (ex nihilo) or the emergence of order from pre-existing chaos."
I have a concern about this as it does not deal with Hindu Creationism, which is automatically excluded because it is not an Abrahamic Religion.
Secondly the opening suggests that Creationism is an automatic feature of Abrahamic Religions.  In fact there are considerable elements within Abrahamic faiths that argue for different positions concerning the validity or invalidity of what has come to be understood as creationism.
As the article now reads it is a Western Ethnocentric piece of writing, that excludes others Creation beliefs.
I would suggest, to overcome these two difficulties we amend the beginning to read
"In many religious traditions, creationism or creation theology is the origin belief that humans, life, the Earth, and/or the universe as a whole were created by a supreme being or by another deity's supernatural intervention. The intervention may be seen either as an act of creation from nothing (ex nihilo) or the (re)-emergence of order from pre-existing chaos.  Various forms of creationism are found principly in religions of the Abrahamic faiths, and in Hinduism, although such beliefs can in theory be found in many other religious traditions in which creation proceeded as a result of a divine intervention, rather than as a part of the unfolding of an eternal or recycled natural order."
Equally I find the statement 
"While the general idea of natural selection may fit into various particular views, the evolutionary concept of common descent —that humans are "descended from lesser creatures" — is a point of great issue with most creation believers. Most creationists also dispute evolutionary theories about the origin of life, origin of the human species, the geological history of the Earth, the formation of the solar system, and the origin of the physical universe."
That this applies only to those Creationists of the Abrahamic and other faiths who adhere to a belief in an unchanging created order.  I would suggest that we insert the words 
"Most Euro-American Christian Creationists also dispute...." because once again this demonstrates a predominantly Euro-American bias (and indeed a very American bias) as "Creation Theologists" like Matthew Fox, in the Christian tradition, and many non-Christian Creationists have no difficulty with the concept of common descent." 
Regards John D. Croft 04:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Concerns about the Opening

message: I have marked this article as nonsense twice, yet it has been reverted both times. Somebody please explain how the idea of creationism does not qualify as incoherent and/or possessing no redeeming value / historical background.
:Easy! It is coherent. It has redeeming value. It is historically accurate. rossnixon 10:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's been lots of nonsense in the world, yet nonsense or not, Wikipedia reports on things, not make value statements on the content unless those value statements are part of expressing everyone's POV in the interest of a neutral POV overall. And by the way, Creationism is not nonsense, belief in Christ makes one born again, and to become born again, God uses creation. Homestarmy 03:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My cat believes in Creationism. I told her she's the dumbest cat I've ever seen. She got really pissed off.81.246.23.14 11:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nonsense

message: Now, I haven't been on Wikipedia here a very long time, but you know, that latest edit seems.....harsh. I mean, I know that most people condemn creation science as not science, but the way it reads now, it just sounds like an attack rather than an observation. Homestarmy 04:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're going to have to be more specific in your criticism of the latest edits. Is there anything factually inaccurate about the current wording? Is there anything NPOV about it? --ScienceApologist 15:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Eh, people changed it, it's not as angry anymore, im a bit surprised with all them fighting words on the edit summaries people didn't take the conflict here immedietly. Homestarmy 15:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about a reference for "most scientists claim ... that the action of a deity has never been observed"?  Perhaps the results of a poll, that seems reasonable. Dan Watts 15:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A right reasonable request but we need to be clear on what manner of poll we should quote. I contend that the only "scientists" who claim that the action of a deity has been observed are those who advocate creationism or intelligent design. Would it be adequate for us to present a reference to a poll which demonstrated that most scientists dismiss such arguments? If so, the reference can be gleaned immediately from the text itself. --ScienceApologist 15:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If it can be established that the dismissal of such arguments includes the belief (of those same scientists) that a) no such measurements exist (or are possible) or b) no existing measurements could be understood (by them) to be the result of the action of a deity; then I would concur without argument. Dan Watts 16:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's quite a qualification. What if we cited the religious beliefs of scientist as seen in the poll conducted by the National Academy? This doesn't quite rise to your qualifications, but it seems to indicate the same information.--ScienceApologist 20:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the religous belief cited address supernatural influence on the material world? Dan Watts 16:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Inasmuch as it is asking the question about the veracity of the theistic conceit. --ScienceApologist 15:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: While I'd like to take your word for it, I cannot find reference to this anywhere. As the work is still available for sale still in the previous form, I reverted the title. Let me know what you find. --ScienceApologist 07:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Creation science edits

message: Hold on a minute, what's all this about deleting templates that this article supposedly reached consensus on? If their that important, why are they being deleted? Homestarmy 13:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Template deletions?

message: Since it hasn't yet been posted here I thought I'd link to this . Creationism is now effectively 'on the syllabus' in the UK but in the context of explaining what creationism is and why evolution generated such hostility when it was first developed. As the DFES spokesperson specified, evolution is still dealt with as a matter of fact. I'm going to edit a small comment in on the subject, feel free to comment here if you think it is out of place or overdone. --Davril2020 13:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Changes to education in the UK

message: Lots of absolute statements in there, many of that material really ought to have some citations, like what is and is not scientific analysis and all that stuff, im sure there's got to be some source-wise material in other articles about science, any chance we could bring some in for that list of stuff? Homestarmy 17:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you be more specific? --ScienceApologist 18:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically, all that stuff you cleaned up about what is and is not science and how it works and stuff. Im not saying it's wrong, it's just something that sounds so absolute and basic it just seems like there ought to be a reference, nothing complicated, I mean there's got to be something simple, like a 3rd grade science book, I dunno :/. And it kind of sounds like it should all be in the science article is what im thinking, like it's just somehow being copied into this article. Homestarmy 18:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is some point at which common knowledge belies citation. I think we may be running into that problem here. --ScienceApologist 18:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So is all that stuff in the science or scientific method article then? Because scientific method was wikilinked....Homestarmy 19:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since science and scientific method refer to the subjects independent of this context, much of the information is there but in different forms. --ScienceApologist 19:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I also just had another thought, where did this critique first come from? the person who submitted it? Isn't that original reaserch, even though it might be conforming with scientific viewpoints and whatnot? Homestarmy 19:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is Wikipedia:Summary style reporting on the various critiques made by scientific skeptics and those actively involved in the creation-evolution controversy. It isn't original research because all of the claims are verifiable through looking at any criticism of creationism source. --ScienceApologist 19:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But not all criticisms of creationism have to rely on science, do you mean like scientifically recognized ones? Homestarmy 19:42, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There really are no "scientifically recognized" criticisms of creationism because most scientists don't bother to worry about the subject. You are right that some of the criticisms aren't scientific, but those are verifiable through our references as well. --ScienceApologist 19:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

text: But then don't we just go back to the problem of that there are no references in this section beyond scientific method being wikilinked? :/ Homestarmy 19:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are references, just no citations. Feel free to add citations in as you see fit. (By the way, citations are only a guideline, not a policy -- some writing doesn't lend itself to citation well). --ScienceApologist 21:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

text: But I didn't see anybody add references in response to this new section, none of the one's currently at the bottom seem to, well, have anything to do with this particular kind of critique. Homestarmy 00:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Talkorigins certainly mentions all of these and has references to the points. We can mine a reference list and citation group from them if we want, subject to GDFL of course. --ScienceApologist 02:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The new stuff in the controversy area

message: I find it ironic that the controversy within the religion, and even evidence in contrast to these beliefs are presented, while there is virtually no evidence for these beliefs shown. Much evidence clearly exists, as the controversy has lasted over a century, and I know so from my studies in both the areas of christian theology and archaeology, as well as paleontology, anthropology, and biology. I will contribute some evidence when I have the time, but for now, I think it would be beneficial to the article if someone takes the initiative to do so.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.167.86 (talk • contribs)  
Unfortunently, I have the feeling that the same people who put the "This article may not show evidence because we control the evidence!" stamp thing on the talk page might veheminently oppose that :(. Homestarmy 13:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are claiming that there is scientific evidence for creationism you are incorrect. --ScienceApologist 13:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ....that article appears to detail how evidence may be presented in courts of law, creationism itself hasn't really been on trial, just attempts to teach it.... Homestarmy 14:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Even so, creationism as a concept does not have the backing of the scientific community and does not have verifiable evidence to back up its assumptions. --ScienceApologist 14:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well whoever first posted this didn't seem to specify what type of evidence they planned to give, if they can find evidence that many creationists cite, whether people agree with it or not, well, I don't see how it can't be allowed. It depends on how the article notes the evidence. Homestarmy 14:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Section is Needed 

message: We all know that you don't like Creationism. This does not give you leave to rant at Creationists within an article. This may be tough but keep this NPOV. I just excised a personal opinion ranting at people who believed in God. Subtle bias is prevalent throughout the place and it is highly ironic that the "criticisms" section is three times as long as the rest of the article. Seriously, people. 70.17.208.92 21:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not referring specifically to you but generally to all here. 141.157.84.104 04:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Don't see why you'd need more links if you've referenced it heh. Homestarmy 19:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Please, please, please

message: In reference to the recent edits, whilst I agree that it is historically accurate that God and Allah are just different translations and Yahweh is a personal name, the fact remains that this is how God is reffered to by different people. The history, whilst interesting, is not known to most modern people so the change is unnessery. Jefffire 21:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They are not translations of YHWH - "god" is a translation of "el" ansd "Allah" is the Arabic form of the Hebrew "El," which itself probably has older roots in Semitic languages. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 08:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Huh, well that's me told. So I'm righter than I thought I was but for the wrong reasons. Thanks. 8*) Jefffire 12:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name of God 

message: Has anyone noticed that the Pending Tasks section is now one overlong (albeit rather poetic, from having read it diagonally) rambling? --Ramdrake 23:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pending tasks

message: I suspect the article contains an error: It categorizes Theisic Evolution as a type of creationism and even claims it is the same as Evolutionary Creationism. Contrary to Evolutionary Creationism, to my knowledge, almost all Theistic Evolution proponents  do not hold literal interpretation of the scripture. Instead, they hold historical-grammatical interpretation. Theistic Evolution is held by a subset of roman catholics (while on the other hand many roman catholics reject theistic evolution and hold strict independence of science and belief based on Augustine). Evolutionary Creationism on the other hand seems to be a small position within the evangelical and fundamentalist movement who try to deduce evolutionary theory by literal interpretation of the bible. --Rtc 23:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, wouldn't evolutionary Creationism just contradict the "According to their kinds" verse anyway? If its a literal interpretation then why is it a separate sub-belief? Homestarmy 00:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Obviously its proponents have their way to argue against it being a contradiction, but don't ask me about details. It is a sub-belief as just any other sub-belief. Narrow creationism (which this article seems to be about mostly) by definition holds literal interpretation. Of course there are a lot of different positions regarding what is the correct literal interpretation, and my impression is that evolutionary Creationism is one of them and theistic evolution is not one of them. --Rtc 00:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well doesn't this article already mention creationist ideas that aren't straight from the Bible? I know most popularily it probably is associated with Christianity, but I thought there was something in here about hinduism or Islam. But if this article is just about the Christian POV on creation, then yes, I would say that Theistic evolution is not inherintly creationism, its a bit too broad, for example, a Deist could easily be a theistic evolutionist. Homestarmy 00:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I refered to literal interpretation of the scripture in general. Not only literal interpretation of the bible. As I understand, this article is about creationism in abrahamic religions, that is, the abrahamic origin belief based on literal interpretation of the scripture, independent of how that interpretation might look like in detail. Regardless of the definition now, to my knowledge, Theistic Evolution is commonly not even refered to as creationism. It just seems to be confused with evolutionary Creationism a lot. BTW, not that you misunderstand, as I see it, even evolutionary Creationism is in conflict with science, since they seem to claim that evolution would not work without a god's direct intervention. They attack evolutionary theory with common creationist arguments to support their view that the process is actively guided and controlled by a superior being and would not work without. On the other hand, most Theistic Evolution proponents seem not to oppose science in such a fashion. --Rtc 00:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, personally, "Theistic evolution" and "Evolutionary Creationism" sound similar anyway, I suppose both don't really need to be mentioned. But if the article is about the Abrahamic tradition, then yes, theistic evolution shouldn't be mentioned if what you say is true. Homestarmy 13:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I was under the impression they were alternate phrasing for the same things. I would be fascinated to see what differences exist between them. --Davril2020 16:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, for what it's worth, according to the the TalkOrigins Archive here "Evolutionary Creationism differs from Theistic Evolution only in its theology, not in its science. It says that God operates not in the gaps, but that nature has no existence independent of His will. It allows interpretations consistent with both a literal Genesis and objective science, allowing, for example, that the events of creation occurred, but not in time as we know it, and that Adam was not the first biological human but the first spiritually aware one." "Theistic Evolution says that God creates through evolution. Theistic Evolutionists vary in beliefs about how much God intervenes in the process. It accepts most or all of modern science, but it invokes God for some things outside the realm of science, such as the creation of the human soul. This position is promoted by the Pope and taught at mainline Protestant seminaries."  JoshuaZ 16:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If that's not splitting hairs, I don't know what is. --ScienceApologist 17:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: As I recall, we drew on that TalkOrigins article for the "categories", which as it emphasises are broad definitions of areas of a continuum, with some overlap, though I note that the flat-earthers seem to have fallen off the edge. At one point there were separate articles for EC and TE, but there was such overlap that the articles were merged, with some to and fro as to which was the best heading. Some (Roman Catholics) consider themselves creationist in believing in Creation and were reluctant to give up that heading, in a similar way to those who consider their position of belief in an intelligent designer to have had its name corrupted by the intelligent design mob. As far as I could find the online claims to the EC label came from variants on the example cited of Susan Schneider who interprets the Torah, finds it conflicts with Darwin, then reconciles the two with string theory. Read it if you can be bothered. The official Roman Catholic, C of E etc positions clearly fall under the TE label, but still believe in Creation as they define it. Don't expect all these ideas to fit into neat boxes. ..dave souza, talk 18:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Primarily, this article is clearly about narrow creationism, as implied by "Although the term is sometimes used in such a broad sense, it has come to be more commonly associated with the religiously conservative beliefs that conflict directly with aspects of modern science." So please let's concentrate more my hypothesis that narrow creationism in general and evolutionary creationism in particular holds literal interpretation while theistic evolution does not. In my eyes, holding literal interpretation is one of the central defining aspects of creationism (contrasted to, mainly, Historical-grammatical). The article seems to describe mostly a cultural perspective and it seems far too reluctant to me regarding theological backgrounds.  neither seems to shed any light on them especially concerning evolutionary creationism and theistic evolution: they say that there are some theological differences, but they don't mention them and only describe differences of a seeminly very incurious look 'on the surface'. Re flat-earthers: Let's be honest, they are simply used as a metaphoric stereotype. They are not really a creationist position. While the mere list of creationist positions of  seems complete and correct to me (as mentioned, except flat-earthers), the descriptions on the other hand seems unreliable in a multitude of ways: For example it asserts the POV propagated by some atheists and most creationists likewise (obscure, isn't it) that "Creation and evolution are not a dichotomy, but ends of a continuum". Neither is the case: They are not commensurable, at least not in the very reductionist scheme depicted in the article. It suggests that evolution is hold as a belief in a fashion that creationists hold creation. "Methodological Materialistic Evolution" seems like a term invented by the author—the positions accepted in the epistimology are falsificationism (by rationalists) and the paradigm shift (by irrationalists) (see Demarcation Problem); atheism, naturalism and materialism are not accepted in science, not even in a methodological fashion. Clearly, there are people who 'believe in evolution' and try to 'defend' the theory against creationist attacks and attack creationism. But this is exactly opposite to the aim of science, which is ignoring beliefs such as creationism as being outside the scope of science and trying to find inconsistencies in the existing theories by reasoning and facts (though not in the way creationists do this as part of their evangelism campaign and strategies), to gain new, enlighting insights and formulate new, better theories with better predictions. So please use sources which are more reputable, such as . It clearly states "Here, Creationism means the taking of the Bible, particularly the early chapters of Genesis, as literally true [...]" PS: User:ScienceApologist asked for a citation. Very unfortunately, as a source for the alleged views of evolutionary creationism, I can only provide a German text. It clearly states "ich [bin] selber ein 'Kreationist'" ("I am a creationist myself") and clearly holds literal interpretation, yet at the same time evolution. (I have to admit that it does not exactly mention the words 'evolutionary creationism' in any reasonable German translation of them. But what, if not this view, should constitute evolutionary creationism?) Theistic evolution on the other hand is unequivocally hold mostly catholics (even if only a minority position among them), and they clearly hold Historical-grammatical interpretation and openly reject a literal one. --Rtc 19:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I agree in principle that the scientific method does not in and of itself include the "natural" assumptions of universiality, material primacy, and consistency, I think it may be overstating the case of the post-modern philosophers of science who divide into rationalists and irrationalists while ignoring the content of scientific discourse itself. Yes science is a method, but creationists aren't upset with the method of science: they are upset with the conclusions drawn from applying the methods of science (regardless of whether the conclusions were gotten through the falsification or the paradigm shift enterprise). --ScienceApologist 20:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At least this is how creationists see it. In fact, science does not assert the reality of its theories and does not draw any such conclusions from them. At least in principle it should not. Instead it shall make bold conjectures with entitlement for truth, but it shall not assert them to be infallible or actually be the truth. If it happens here and there that is a point that can be criticized in a honest way (but that's not what creationists do). Claiming the theory of evolution to be actual reality is done entirely outside scientific discourse and happens mostly on movements of social interest groups and in popular science. But let's stop chatting, how about the evolutionary creationism–theistic evolution problem?--Rtc 20:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the subject and antecedent of most of your pronouns in the last paragraph needs to be modified. "Science" does not "assert" anything, nor does it "make bold conjectures". Scientists and applied scientists and engineers, however, rarely do science without also asserting reality or drawing conclusions. Science isn't just a head-trip: the reason science is kept as a human enterprise is because of its functional and descriptive utility, not because of its methodology. --ScienceApologist 21:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That would be more the Kuhn view. I described the Popper view. (And, besides, I actually said "does not assert anything" if you look closely. However, I defend that it "makes bold conjectures", with the key example being Einstein.) Please, this is not a philosophical talk page. If you want to discuss, we can meet on IRC or ICQ. --Rtc 22:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So wait, who's talking philosophy then and who's talking whatever we're supposed to be talking about? Isn't Creationism by default supposed to have something related to philosophy? Homestarmy 22:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I am sorry if I am guilty drifting away a little bit. Whether creationism is about philosophy or not: This talk page is not about creationism, but about the Wikipedia article on creationism. The questions were clear: 1) Does/should this article talk about narrow creationism, ie., the abrahamic belief based on literal interpretation? 2) Might that just be the fundamental difference between evolutionary creationism and theistic evolution? My answer to both is yes. I think it would also solve one of the To-dos posted above: "Re-visit the suggestion that 'Creationism' refers to any and all theories that the universe was created ex nihilo by a deity, as opposed, more specifically, to the assertion that it was created in six twenty-four hour days, literally and as to every detail as described in Genesis 1)" The former is broad creationism, the latter is Young earth creationism. As I said, narrow creationism would be the most reasonable choice, ie., a) abrahamic beliefs that b) hold literal interpretation. --Rtc 22:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it really depends on what people want to do with this article, narrow would suit fine with me. Dunno how one could argue that only flat earth YECs are fully literal though...Homestarmy 18:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theistic evolution 

message: (subhead added as section getting awfy long).dave souza, talk 09:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry if I am guilty drifting away a little bit. Whether creationism is about philosophy or not: This talk page is not about creationism, but about the Wikipedia article on creationism. The questions were clear: 1) Does/should this article talk about narrow creationism, ie., the abrahamic belief based on literal interpretation? 2) Might that just be the fundamental difference between evolutionary creationism and theistic evolution? My answer to both is yes. I think it would also solve one of the To-dos posted above: "Re-visit the suggestion that 'Creationism' refers to any and all theories that the universe was created ex nihilo by a deity, as opposed, more specifically, to the assertion that it was created in six twenty-four hour days, literally and as to every detail as described in Genesis 1)" The former is broad creationism, the latter is Young earth creationism. As I said, narrow creationism would be the most reasonable choice, ie., a) abrahamic beliefs that b) hold literal interpretation. --Rtc 22:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I think it really depends on what people want to do with this article, narrow would suit fine with me. Dunno how one could argue that only flat earth YECs are fully literal though...Homestarmy 18:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Narrow creationism

message: What are the political implications of 'Creationism' ? So far this article mainly went into the Creationist trap of discussing the whole nonsenese as if it was real. However anyone with a brain can see that Creationism may be a new form of Nazism or even worse, seeking the overthrow of centuries of human development and the destruction of Reason itself. Viande hachée 00:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you meant evolutionism, not creationism? Your description fits that far better! rossnixon 05:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No I meant Creationism is explicitly a new form of Fascism or Nazism, held together by denial of reality, mass organization and enmity towards human values. Viande hachée 11:00, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Godwin's law. Also, there's a big difference between genocidal political philosophy and creationism, I don't seem to remember gas chambers being set up to murder everyone who isn't a creationist, come on now. I'd also like to add that centuries of human development once were pretty much entirely founded on creationism simple because there wasn't much of anything else and history did not, in fact, explode. Homestarmy 18:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There's already a section on the politics of it, so I'm not sure what you would add. Could you give specific examples? Remember to meet WP:NOR and WP:NPOV with your suggestions. If you have any queries and want to talk to someone directly drop a note on my talk page. --Davril2020 19:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well Godwins Law stinks, and it merely refers to a method of killing discussion threads on usenet. The 20th century fascists appeared very positive and modern to most of their contemporaries, the scarecrow image prevalent today is misleading. Absence of doubt as desired by the creationists is however a surefire way of identifying fascist ideology. Every European country has a very small and nutty political party of US-style Christians. These are routinely referred to as fascist, because they interconnect with the various openly neo-fascist groups. Real hard Nazis are normally neo-pagans, however.  Viande hachée 19:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fundamentalist Christianity does not inherintly have to have a political agenda that leans strongly towareds facism ,and fundamentalism is generally where Creationism comes from. Homestarmy 13:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creationism and Politics? 

message: Moved section down, and reduced header -- Ec5618 18:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intelligent Design Section

message: I would appreciate it if someone could point out even one well known conservative thelogian or Bible scholar who could be consdered to be "appealing instead to a naturalistic interpretation."  El Cubano 21:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that there isn't a good demarcation of who is a conservative theologian and who is a liberal theologian. Roman Catholic theologians that receive mandatum from the Vatican may be considered "conservative" by certain reformers in the Roman Catholic church, but might easily appeal to a metaphorical interpretation of Genesis due to naturalistic constraints on literalism. Not every theologian who isn't a literalist is liberal. --ScienceApologist 22:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name one conservative who fits this 

message: "Keep the article NPOV."  Wouldn't the article need to become NPOV before we could work on keeping it that way? :-) Dubc0724 01:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pending Tasks 

message: Why is it that Human Origins redirects to Human Evolution.  Their should be a Disambiguation page.  I would say that is not balanced.  I would say some one might want to read an article more similar to this one.  Maybe a new article called human origins could be created and link to both evolution and creationism.
:I have created a disambiguation page at Human origins with references to creation myth and human evolution. --FOo 06:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Human Origins 

message: This is a somewhat minor issue, but I think it's important enough to bring up. In the opening to the Creation Science section of this article, I noticed a pretty obvious adaption of the "so called" form of poisoning the well. The exact wording was "...the endeavour of self-described 'creation scientists'..."
ScienceApologist mentioned that this is "their term and not anyone else's." However, we need to remember that Creation Science is the generally accepted term for the movement -- demonstrated in part by the fact that it is the only name Wikipedia uses to represent the movement.
Thus, I suggest that the use of quotation marks and the term "self-described" is a poisoning-the-well fallacy, and is not in accordance with Wikipedia's policy on words to avoid. I propose that we amend the opening to make it more NPOV. What do you all think? Tschel 00:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have to agree. I checked a similar phrase Christian Science, the cult(?) of Mary Baker Eddy - and it does not say "self-described" and does not use quotation marks. rossnixon 01:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems fair. Homestarmy 02:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If we really wanted to be nitpicky, "Creation Science" and "Creation Science" arose specifically claiming that they we're not "creationism" so it might be poisoning the well not to just call them creationists here. On the other hand, I don't think even most "creation scientists" today bother to really make the distinction any more. JoshuaZ 02:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poisoning the well