Talk:Armenian genocide/Archive 14

message: I think this is a masterpiece propaganda article since you can not even add smallest information that is against the genocide issue even if they are solid facts. 17:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine that if you wished to add factual data on the Mars Rover in an article concerning Ethnic dances of Lithuania it might be deleted as well...even though your information might indeed be factual...the issue is relevancy. However, I should point out that there are many factual items concerning the Armenian Genocide that can't all be included as it would end up being a hugely long and unorganized mess - this isn't the place to just dump any fact - even if (slightly...arguably...perhaps...etc) relevent - there is the matter of it being necessary to convey accurate knowledge concerning the overall event and not be the repository of all known knowledge or information pertaining to it. Additionally, this article is intended to reflect accepted mainstream academic views and not fringe ideas or such that are not widely accepted as they are (righly) seen as being a political stance and not a truly unbiased academic one.  Furthmore I would argue that a great deal of what is being presented by certain parties as "factual" is in fact uncorborated speculation or perhaps observations whose factualness is mightily in question (such as the claim that Armenians were being sent to "fertile lands" way down in Syrai some where or the [entirely unsubstantiated] claim of a "major rebellion" occuring and such. And speaking of facts...it is a fact that there has been no legitimate counter to the claim of genocide. It has been repeatedly proven that this is the correct and (entirely) FACTUAL term and that no legitimate (mainstream) argument exists that refutes such designation. As long as certain contributors are hung up on calling this "so-called" or "propoganda" then they have no business editing this document as they are here representing a fringe and overwhelmingly unaccepted viewpoint that has no basis for inclusion in this article other then to acknowledge the existance of such views and to briefly explain the history of why certain parties might hold this view and who those parties might be. As for your other "so-called" facts - they should or should not be included in the article based on their scholarly/historical merit and on their relevancy to the issue at hand. And any supposed "facts" that cannot stand up to proper scrutiny - as each and every item presented/contained in the article as it stands has done - will just have to be relegated to (unworthy) points of dispute discussed on this talk page and unless a compelling case can be made (and so far no dice) that is all they will be. kapiche? --THOTH 19:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  This article is heavily one sided and you, THOTH, have played a key role in making it so! Please stop trying to argue otherwise because everyone knows this to be the case! Capiche? lutherian 07:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why thank you - its nice to get credit for doing something right these days.--THOTH 01:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda Article 

message: Armenian and Pontic Greek Genocide are contemporary events by same actors.  I attempted to add a ref to Pontic Greek Genocide in Armenian Genocide article but this was reverted by User:Aecis, no explanation.  Why can't people learn about both topics at once? User:erxnmedia, 1 November 2006
*They can, that's why there's already a link at the See Also section at the bottom of the article. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 18:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attempted to add ref to Hellenic Genocide 

message: There is an absolute fact that the article misses the background info about the reasons for the genocide claim. Wikipedia under the title of being an encyclopedia should have a liability for the claims which accusses a whole nation. This is serious. There is no evidance to claim such a accussation, that is not acceptable under the constutitions of every nation in the democratic world and laws of universal ethic. Thus people reading in Wikipedia would see that claims as a factuality. please be careful. I dont want to be accussed for something I did not do (and also my nation).(cantikadam 19:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: well that's what happens when a topic gets hijacked and used for propaganda purposes. If you look at the history of the article section you will notice a well organized revert strategy  designed to keep the topic completely one sided. lutherian 06:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Asides from the "Foreign Corrboration" section, much of the article is incomplete and indeed, sucks. More input is needed by editors.--MarshallBagramyan 19:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It would help if you whined less often and actually contributed to the betterment of the article by challenging the sources or the facts put forth in the article.--MarshallBagramyan 22:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  cmon Marshall, you know very well that its impossible to contribute here because anything that does not fit the propaganda, irrespective of the quality of the  material, is kept out. One gaping example is the constant vilification of Turkey and Turks, I have not come across a single positive remark on Turkey which is why I strongly believe that the objective here is certainly not to create a well balanced article! lutherian 07:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh please Lutherian, the big bad, ominpotent Armenian lobby is not out to get you. We're tolerate of almost everyone's beliefs...just so long as they do not stand opposite to reality :) --MarshallBagramyan 23:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would you expect positive remarks or Turkey or Turks? You generally do not see positive remarks about Germans in Holocaust and WWI articles, yet that hardy makes the articles unbalanced propaganda (neo-Nazis, probably, would disagree, but they do not hold the majority view). In any case, wikipedia deals solely in facts, without room for positive or negative remarks (outside of quotes). Any fact can be added as long as it is generally accepted to be true (and not obviously exaggerated). As for the article "accusing a whole nation", I though that modern Turkey claims to be a completely different nation than the Ottoman Empire. No reason to get offended when the records give a poor impression of Ottoman Turks.The Myotis 03:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  The Armenian Genocide is more then proven and accepted withing the scholarly community. While I agree that much more should be incorporated into this article concerning the reasons for the Armenian Genocide - in no way is there any legitimate postion that this is a so-called or even disputed genocide. This has been discussed at length in the archives of this talk page. Lemkin's definition of the term genocide implicitly included the Armenian experience - as one of two defining examples of the term - the other being the Holocaust of WWII. Additionally the vast amont of eyewitenss testimony (archival and otherwise), confessions, convictions and so on and so forth clearly proves the case. There is no reasonable alernative to the depiction of the events and actions that the CUP undertook towards the Armenians and the results as anything other then genocide. So please get past this already. I f you have any useful (and factual/supportable) data, information and perspective to add - please by all means do so. But calling the Armenian Genocide "alleged" or So-called" or whatever just isn't going to cut it. And it has already been clearly pointed out that to do so and to give over any substansial amount of discussion to such - to exclusively Turkish and direct supporters of Turkish party line positions - any kind of weight - beyond just the mention that Turkey and its supports (are alone in) denying...well this is inconsistent with Wiki policy...and in fact to a certain extent there is already too much of this in the article as it now stands. We need real facts and analysis - not a repeat of Turkish propoganda which has little or no bearing on reality.--THOTH 16:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of background information 

message: "However, unlike Muslim citizens, Armenians, Greeks, other Christians, Jews, and other minorities, were subject to laws which gave them fewer legal rights and they were subject to numerous limitations in legal rights in the empire" Taken from the Armenian Genocide Page..
The above is totally wrong;
"In this system, where interchange between groups did not really homogenize differences between them, how was law, for example, organized? Historians have argued that the pre-modern legal system of autonomous communities -- where communities were defined as autonomous because they had separate juridical status -- was replaced by a system of equality between Muslims and non-Muslims because of a variety of factors, including Western imperialism, and was formalized with the reforms of 1839 and 1856. In your opinion, was there interaction between the communities in the legal sphere before 1839?
There certainly was. First of all, there were the Muslim courts, the sijill courts, the ruling qadi, and so forth. But the problem here is that the religious system that we call Muslim was in fact a complex web of the shar`ia, its reinterpretation, and evolution. In other words, it was not a fixed system. Islam has had a very sophisticated, changing juridical tradition that evolved with the demands of the ruler, and systems of "secular" law were incorporated and domesticated into the Islamic framework. So there were Muslim courts where a Muslim would go, very frequently on issues of private litigation like divorce, commercial litigation, or generally for issues arising between two people. But these courts of law did not deal with what we would associate with a "constitution." In a system that proclaimed difference as normative, it was absolutely understandable that each group had its own separate system. Difference was also sanctioned in this way. Therefore, Christians and Jews would go to their own courts of law, and even though religion was the language of the court, it also incorporated many outside influences. There were all kinds of crossovers, and the system was not set in stone. Since people acted in different ways and often in self interest, Christians and Jews frequently went to Muslim law courts to be tried because this might have been more beneficial to them. There were thundering rabbinical responsa and church rulings against this, but non-Muslim religious leaders were never able to put a stop to this practice. Even the threat of excommunication, which was at times invoked, did not deter everyone from it.
How would a non-Muslim be tried in a Muslim court?
You could be tried in two ways: according to what was accepted as general law in Islam or according to the qadi's interpretation of what, for example, the Jewish religious law would say. You can imagine how threatening this was for the rabbi or for the particular Christian religious leader, since there was a lot left to interpretation. However, what reveals the fundamental paradigmatic divide is that the opposite could never have taken place. A Muslim could never have gone to a Jewish law court and have the decision of that court be valid. That would have been completely unacceptable, because ultimately power was unilateral, and, with certain qualifications, Islam was ultimately the hegemonic system. So hegemonic, in fact, that if litigation involved a Muslim and a non-Muslim, then they had to go to a Muslim court. The non-Muslim court was not accepted as having jurisdiction over Muslims."
The above is taken from http://www.stanford.edu/group/SHR/5-1/text/rodrigue.html
Xargoth 00:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article does not say that non-Muslims could not go to Islamic courts. If an issue arose between an Armenian and a Muslim, or a Muslim and a Jew, the Muslim's testimony would overrule that of the Jew's or the Christian's since neither of their testimonies were admissable in court. If however, an issue arose between two Armenians, the Armenian Church would have to settle the dispute or the Greek Orthodox Church would have to settle issues amongst Greeks, etc. If you feel the text implies a misleading notion or otherwise might confuse the reader, feel free to edit and clarify it. --MarshallBagramyan 01:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong information(deception on purpose) about Ottoman Laws.. 

message: I have added a  template to the section about Orhan Pamuk. Sentences like "subjected to a hate campaign" and "returning ... in order to defend his right to freedom of speech" convey a point of view that does not belong on wikipedia. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 17:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you contending that he was not subjected to a hate campaign and that he did not return to Turkey to fight for his freedom of speech? I don't at all understand what you are objecting to...is there a factual dispute? --THOTH 17:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If I had contended that, I would have added one of the accuracy tags instead of the pov tag. The problem is that terms like "hate campaign" and "defending his right to X" inherently convey a political position. The term "hate campaign" for instance implies a concerted effort by an organized and identifiable group inspired by hate. The phrase "defending his right to" implies that what Pamuk faced constitutes an infringement of that right. While that may be true, that is not up to wikipedia to decide. That's something that every individual reader should make out for themselves. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 19:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I disagree. These terms are both accurate in terms of what occured and are entirely consistent with terminology frequently and consitently used in media coverage of these events. --THOTH 19:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you then please provide references? Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 19:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK - here in Pamuk's own words - http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/051219ta_talk_pamuk "If the state is prepared to go to such lengths to keep the Turkish people from knowing what happened to the Ottoman Armenians, that qualifies as a taboo. And my words caused a furor worthy of a taboo: various newspapers launched hate campaigns against me, with some right-wing (but not necessarily Islamist) columnists going as far as to say that I should be “silenced” for good; groups of nationalist extremists organized meetings and demonstrations to protest my treachery; there were public burnings of my books. Like Ka, the hero of my novel “Snow,” I discovered how it felt to have to leave one’s beloved city for a time on account of one’s political views. Because I did not want to add to the controversy, and did not want even to hear about it, I at first kept quiet, drenched in a strange sort of shame, hiding from the public, and even from my own words. Then a provincial governor ordered a burning of my books, and, following my return to Istanbul, the Şişli public prosecutor opened the case against me, and I found myself the object of international concern. My detractors were not motivated just by personal animosity, nor were they expressing hostility to me alone; I already knew that my case was a matter worthy of discussion in both Turkey and the outside world. This was partly because I believed that what stained a country’s “honor” was not the discussion of the black spots in its history but the impossibility of any discussion at all. But it was also because I believed that in today’s Turkey the prohibition against discussing the Ottoman Armenians was a prohibition against freedom of expression, and that the two matters were inextricably linked." --THOTH 19:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  more - (Hate Campaign) http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/08/turkey12174.htm http://www.granta.com/extracts/2638 "Either this was the last straw for Turkey's nationalists—a looseknit coalition dominated by old-guard secularists but also drawing support from fringe Islamist groups, the far left and the fascist right— or it was the opportunity they had been waiting for. Their supporters in the nationalist press went mad the next day, with some columnists going so far as to brand Pamuk a traitor and to invite 'civil society' to take steps to silence him. This translated into death threats that may or may not have been linked to fascist-nationalist paramilitaries. During this time Pamuk stayed abroad for a few months, returning from New York when the hate campaign seemed to be dying down." http://elenifergadi.wordpress.com/2006/10/16/orhan-pamuk/ Last year, following his remarks to a Swiss newspaper that “30,000 Kurds and one million Armenians were murdered in these lands” he became the target of an official and popular hate campaign. He responded to this campaign with a statement that skillfully underlined the exceptional place of politics in literature: “Any Turkish novelist who fails to imagine the Kurds and other minorities and who neglects to illuminate the black-spots in his country’s unspoken history, will, in my view, produce work that has a hole at its centre”. http://acturca.wordpress.com/2006/10/16/orhan-pamuk-and-the-turkish-paradox/ "Orhan Pamuk, 53, Turkish author and this year. ... began talking about something that used to be taboo and a real hate campaign developed against me.."--THOTH 20:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  more - (returned to defend freedom of speech) - http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30E13F73E540C758CDDA90994DE404482&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fP%2fPamuk%2c%20Orhan "Turkish Writers Say Efforts to Stifle Speech May Backfire" http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/12/b918d372-13df-48d1-87b5-4f09ba9062e8.html "Turkey: Trial Of Novelist Orhan Pamuk Puts Focus On Freedom Of Speech"  http://www.andycarvin.com/archives/2005/12/the_orhan_pamuk.html "The Orhan Pamuk Trial: Turkey's Free Speech Test"  and so on....yup - I'm afraid just like the Armenian Genocide issue in general - it seems that some of you Turks see it one way and the rest of the world sees it another...--THOTH 20:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  He also said "Turkish Nobel laureate Orhan Pamuk, tried at home for commenting on the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks, said on Friday a French law banning the denial of the Armenian genocide went against free speech.
"Freedom of expression is a French discovery and this law is contrary to the culture of freedom of expression. We must not pass a law forbidding freedom," Pamuk told Turkish broadcaster Kanal D in an interview from New York." 
Maybe you want to add that too?
Xargoth 21:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  LOL - first you complain that he is no historian but only a novelist - now you want him inserted as a legal expert! His noteriety (and unique relevance)is for his statement concerning Armenians and Kurds killed. And for this an antiquated and very telling Turkish law was used to prosecute his declaration of a (officially taboo and hidden) truth that directly attests to knoweldge of the Armenian Genocide (by a prominant educated and wordly Turkish author who specializes in exposing shortcommings in Turkish public policy and society etc in regards to such things...whereas he is one of many who disagree with the French Bill - most for similar (Free Speech) reasons...and while his view might be an interesting footnote it is no where near as contextually noteworthy as his primary statements and indictment that are referenced in the article. I wouldn't really care if it is mentioned in the article - however it seems rather trivial as compared to the main issue...and again - it speaks to your (denialist Turks') desperation...--THOTH 21:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  Well, i just gave you another Quote of the novelist. As it seems you would like to quote him so much within the article. I thought, you should at this too. To prevent biased views of the person and add his quotes against Armenian Genocide laws and punishment too. I am just trying to make this article more objective.. Noting more, if you ask me, Orhan Pamuk is noone in the topic of "Armenian Genocide" at all. But it is you who insist that he should stay there. So be it, then add his quotes that are against your views too please..Xargoth 21:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I never wrote the first one and I think I'll pass - I've already given my reasons and I think that they are clear. --THOTH 21:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV section: Orhan Pamuk 

message: Armenians love presentin Newspaper articles as if they can prove a Genocide. The sad thing for them is these newspaper (all being non Turk lovers) also informed about Armenian activities (in a sterile and supporting way.) still the terible truth is there...
Thanks to google. Sorry for typos it is from original site...
Knowing that our Western friends who are so sure about this genocide do not like spending time reading articles I copy pasted them for you. Plesa also check the original.. 
London, Sept. 26. -- Several Armenian refugees from the districts of Bitlis and Musch lately have managed to escape the Turkish lines and secure safety in the areas occupied by the Russo-Armenian forces on the Transcaucasian front.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/196791442.html?dids=196791442:196791442&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=OCT+28%2C+1895&author=&pub=The+Washington+Post&desc=Armenian+Outbreak+in+Bitlis.&pqatl=google
ARMENIANS JOIN RUSSIANS. Detachment of VOLUNTEERS Arrives at TIflis for Army Service. Jan. Reuters Petrograd correspondent transmits a message from Tiftls stating that a detachment of ARMENIAN VOLUNTEERS had arrived there from The VOLUNTEERS received enthusiastic reception ARMENIAN VOLUNTEERS evidently are serve with the Russian Army in the campaign against whose troops 1 -were advancing in the direction of Tiftla
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingItems/GLP/LP8.aspx?search=armenian%20volunteers&img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2iKhszZw+mRbxysu+x0+A2stH2PpSCCxDA==&site=google&fileType=jpg
ARMENIANS FIGHT FOR RUSSIA LONDON, Jan. 7 Router's Petro- grad correspondent transmits a mes- sage from Tiflla statin? that a detach- ment of ARMENIAN VOLUNTEERS had ar- rived there from America. The volun- teers received an enthusiastic recep- tion
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingItems/GLP/LP8.aspx?search=armenian%20volunteers&img=olJOpJH/3rKKID/6NLMW2lJMbHyvLOkb1yfed0KLIKMtH2PpSCCxDA==&site=google&fileType=jpg
ARMENIANs Join Russians Rome, Feb. received here states that the Russian line in Armenia la already from 30 to CO miles west of Erzerum. Tho Turk- ish rout surpasses all imagination. No unit remains intact und the debris of the army in flight is being mas- sacred by the Insurgent population. All iible-bodled ARMENIANs who escaped from Turkish conscription havo enlluted In the Russian army. Grand Duke Nicholas, It Is reported, iiaa now Annenlan VOLUNTEERS under his command.
RUSSIANS LANDING ON ARMENIAN OOAST London, Fob. cover of warships' guns, Russian transports aro now landing large forces of men on the ARMENIAN scacoast, 70 miles cost of Treblzond, encountering only feoblo resistance. The troops are being transported from Batum, where they huva been held In readiness for several months. Tho fact that they were not used In the earlier stages of the ARMENIAN campaign Icn'ds to the belief that the grand duke has under hie com- mand much larger forces than was at flist suspected and plana to push an aggressive campaign through Ar- menia, driving westward toward Con- stantinople, or to the southwest to join the British In Mesopotamia. If he decides upon the latter course ho JB expected to push forward at once against DJurbeker, 140 mllca southwest of Erzerum. I waa announced today by the yvnr office. Forced withdrawal by the-Bit rrom tho edge of the mine which they recently
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingItems/GLP/LP8.aspx?search=armenian%20volunteers&img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2ubZE2U/KEFw8WwtY2DkjkwXq0yv/h4TLw==&site=google&fileType=jpg
ARMENIAN VOLUNTEERS active pi Eviration to rase their' contingents from about 6000 tc much simpler When war I roke large number lerks mercl.il hese with fen full division of about 15000 Five Ar- ninri detachments are now from Batnm to Tabriz. It Is to unite all but one In a, single boxy Volunteering U proceeding brisk y bavins; begun even before Turkey en tered the war Anncnlni sul ocrlptlo is defray alt coats and. the "Van Is in the hands of the Arm n Ni tional Bureau, In whlcl) all elements o the ARMENIAN race re present
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingItems/GLP/LP8.aspx?search=armenian%20volunteers&img=j91JOupTOn+KID/6NLMW2vcL9Ji9+KNAuoCOdT1CCRIV46+Pk4ztcA==&site=google&fileType=jpg
ARMENIANS PARTICIPATED. ___ j (By Pres.-O that ARMENIAN volunteer-. mEny of thfm from thli ruiintty. particlpuiei! In the i British victory over the Turks In Pal- rjtin.-. under General Allenby. was contained In cable messages received today nt the headquarters here of the ARMENIAN National Union of America. liny Hoad
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingItems/GLP/LP8.aspx?search=armenian%20volunteers&img=P9SpTvomPU+KID/6NLMW2vF26zVgVr7JZ/JDlnQCpmaYtpzP3A1HFw==&site=google&fileType=jpg
Face some Truth about Hamidian "Massacres". From your beloved sources.
 
TBE SASSOUN MASSACRE Proof of the Assertion that ARMENIAN Revolutionists Caused It. TESTIMONY OF REV. GYROS HAMLIN A. Protest Against Americans Help- ing EnRland to Realize Po- litical Aspirations in the East. Fo Uie Editor cf Tlie JS'eia Itorle In our previous letter we affirmed that the Sassoun troubles were brought about by the criminal efforts of ARMENIAN revolu- tionary committees, and that no reliance whatever ought to be, placed on ARMENIAN testimony and assertions We now propose to prove these two affirmations, not by Is to say mony, but by American and namely, Christian testimony man who, above all, gave the most explicit and true account of the Ar- menian revolutionary movement Is the Rev Cyrua Hamlin himself On the 23d of De- cember. or, In other words, only a few months before the revolt of bassoun, he published in The Congregatlonallst a truly prophetic statement the perusa
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingItems/GLP/LP8.aspx?search=armenian%20parties&img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2rkRTgtNhK8IpIAuIhfHOPyj/jxEJp8v9g==&site=google&fileType=jpgl
According to a dispatch from the Vali of BITLIS, Asiatic TURKEY, seventeen vil- lages have been destroyed by ARMENIAN insurgents in the district of Sassuu. More than GOO ARMENIAN families 1 ave taken icfuge at Mush, a town in Eillis. 1904
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingItems/GLP/LP8.aspx?search=russian%20army%20and%20bitlis%20and%20turkey%20and%20armenian&img=wUP6BEk4rpmKID/6NLMW2kVA00NjCE767rPe1bQ3tOLjcEt17V09ww==&site=google&fileType=jpg
neurobio 17:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Its obvious that this kind of sources and information is left out in this article. That's why i am at the process of official complaints to the required channels of this POV, biased and hijacked article, going up to the top until this is dealt with..Xargoth 18:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  These supposed news exerpts are unreadable as presented - the site is a pay site restricting access so the validity of presented articles cannot be confirmed - and lastly and most importantly - I don't see anything here that has anything at all directly to do with the Armenian Genocide...so again I fail to see your point - and only see that you are desperate. What exactly does this post of yorus do to advance the issue of improveing the article? I entirely fail to understand. This is just spamming as far as I'm concerned. --THOTH 18:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Also - just curious here - would you consider the presence of Jewish partisans fighting againsts the Germans in WWII as proof that the Holocaust never happened? --THOTH 18:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your attempt to compare the Nazi extermination of the Jew population in Europe, with the Armenian forced relocation and deaths by the issues addressed before, is completly disgusting. And undermining what Jew population has gone through, so you priorotize your own propaganda over a United Nations accepted issue. a Pathetic claim ..(this wasn't edited by THOTH if you thought so, my mistake on using the wrong format to say something) Pathetic Xargoth 18:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is "completely disgusting" is your denial of genocide. In no way do I, have I, or would I ever deny the suffering experienced by European Jews in WWII nor would I ever make apologies for Nazis/Germans who have commited such barbarous acts...yet you do so in regards to the CUP/Ottoman Empire and Turks who commited acts equally as barbarous and equally as offensive to humanity. You are a pathetic individual.--THOTH 18:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  So googles new historical news archive of scanned newspapers is not reliable when it doesnt suit armenians. OK...
Armenia, published in Algemeen Handelsblad, Amsterdam on Tuesday, May 25th, 1920
But one priest of the old Franciscan order, a simple old priest, who without doubt was at the side of the Christians, shook his head, when I was cursing against the Turks: 
“You are making a mistake, he said. The Turks alone are not guilty. Yes for someone coming from Europe and who would like to see prosecution with European habits and customs, would punish the destruction of this population as a crime. But it is not the entire truth that you have heard and seen. One has to see and understand these happenings through a pair of  Asian eyes/glasses: that here are two populations with age-old hate and disillusion, who are going at each other. There are here two different mentalities, the Turkish and the Armenian, and both are saying one of them has to be destroyed. Yes in 1915 it were the Armenian people who were destroyed. Everything was being done to work against them and they were defeated. But are you convinced that the Armenian people would not have done, or did, the same acts  in similar circumstances? I have my reports from missionaries, dispatched through my (Franciscans (ed)) group in Beyazit, Van, Erzurum, Erzincan: from these reports I know that in 1915 then the war with Russia started, that it were the Armenian people, who behind  the back of the Turkish army provoked the revolution and caused the depopulation of the Turkish villages and settlements and flattened them to dust (destroyed them ed.). The consequent results that happened later in Turkey, were only as a consequence of this first adversary position of the Armenian people. I admit that that terrible things happened; er has been so much blood  shed as never before. But innocent were the Armenians not at the root of this blood bath. And when the Turks then went further than was necessarym then the guilty part is not only the Turks, but because of the mentality of Asia, where the hatred of population against population goes deeper than with European populations and where war causes animalistic forms.”
“See for example Trabzon. You have been the Armenian areas that were burned to the ground, but did you observe as well the Turkish areas that were burned to the ground? Did you notice the still fresh graves of the Turkish population? No! See, when the Armenians found themselves in the same positions as the Turks, when they celebrated to advance under the protections of the Russian army, then the drama theater of the year 1915 repeated itself, but then the Turks had to pay their debts. Wherever the Armenians discovered a Turk, he was slaughtered without any pity and wherever they saw a Turkish mosque, it was plundered and set afire. The Turkish districts were just as the Armenians before, burned to the ground. Now you go inwards and you will find yourself the traces of the war: Baykurt, Erzincan, Erzurum and Kars. You will still smoking ruins and you will still smell the blood of the corpses, but this were however Turkish corpses.”   
The Franciscan priest had told me the truth. For months I went through Armenia and Kurdistan and I found confirmation of what he had told me. After the retreat of the Russian army, that followed the Russian peace, took the battalions of the so-called Armenian army, the operation of the occupied Turkish areas over. During the Russian occupation the lives and possessions of the Turks had been protected. But what happened after the retreat of the Russians, is hart breaking.   The small Turkish settlements were slaughtered till the last man and the churches till the last stone destroyed by the both generals Adronits and Murat.
At that time the expectations of the Armenians were still in high spirits. Their plans were far reaching, and took into account the entire Turkish state. And they anticipated that they could finish with their enemy till the last man, woman and child. I have seen in Erzincan ruins, where hundreds of bodies of hanged Turks lay amongst these ruins. I shone lights into potholes, that were full of bodies. I have seen with my own eyes that  graves were being opened and where male and female bodies were laying over each other by hundreds. Who had done this. The victorious Armenians.
These sights accompanied me on the far and long road through Upper-Armenia, Kurdistan till Russian-Armenia. And is it a wonder that the Turks, when they were again the victors, took revenge and in turn paid evil with evil? I have to acknowledge that  during the advance of the Turks to Russian-Armenia the murders by the Turks continued. At the other side of the border of the Sarikamis the settlements of the Armenian population, that were numerous, were being depopulated with fire and iron (weapons)ed) The most bitter hatred against the earlier victors continued, now won, ind the most animalistic manner, familiar for the wild land of Asia. Our European brains do not understand this ungodly hatred, that agitates people against people in the worst gross crimes. However, we are not allowed to forget that Upper-Armenia is a country where the civilization can be compared with the ancient culture of the European people. The countries there are not nations, but tribes . And just like in ancient times, the sights of two tribes meant the destruction of one of them, so that still in the mountains of the Great Ararat even today one can not think of co-habitation, but of destruction. In the barren mountains of Upper-Armenia one does not understand compromise, but only fighting for life or death. The winner lives, the defeated one can only die.
During my stay in Alexandropol (Gumru) the following happened, something that sheds a good light on the mentality of the people there. From the direction of the mountains of Alagoz one could hear on one day, cannon thunder. The Armenian population, who were living and fright and terror behind the Turkish frontier, explained to me this noise like this, that the English were advancing against the Turks. And they were living in their conviction that the Turks would be defeated within a few days. Immediately the rebellion occurred behind the Turkish frontier and the weak Turkish posts in the Armenian villages were being terrorized and abused in a most refined way. 
neurobio 18:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Funny you present here the second hand testimony of a priest who likewise refers to second hand reports all of which is filled with generalizing assumptions far beyond what this individual could ever expect to knwo as fact. (Where are all of these reports he refers to BTW - why have we never seen such in all of these years?) You present this (reports of supposed atrocities and speculation of far reaching revolutionary aims of some Armenians) as some kind countervailing claims that obviate the truth of the hundreds and thousands of corraborated (and extremely detailed) reports as to the actual massive atrocites commited by Turks against Armenians - and of course the results - obviously Eastern Anatolia is now overun with Armenians and Turks are no-where to be found - etc - please. This somewhat suspect report - that has no real detail or corroboration - in no way can be used as any counter to what is and has been extremely documented and is known about what actually occured dusring these times. Werre there isolated incidens of Armenian violence against Turks - certainly - and did Armenian men who survived massacres and escaped to Russian lands and such join the Russians against the Ottoman Empire - certainly - were atrocites commited - absolutly yes...but we are talking about a genocide here - and none of this counters that claim - that truth - the facts of what occured on a massive scale. So stop wasting our time here.--THOTH 18:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Moderators, who are so swift to change back corrections and any editing, to protect the current biased article suddenly falls asleep and dissappear on adding these new sources and information given in the "talk pages and discussions" to the article?Xargoth 18:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I couldn't check the entire text you posted, because the picture/scan is only a fragment of the article. But that fragment is translated correctly, although it still needs some grammar fixes. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 22:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  For Aecis: Lets read some Newsform USA newspapers around 1915 

message: See Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-07 Armenian Genocide. Note: I am not mediating, merely alerting. :] --Keitei (talk) 01:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: First of all you should research the Holocaust to understand exactly what the Germans did to kill the Jews...in was not all just push them into gas chambers...it was called "deportation" to at first...and in fact the Ottomans managed to kill more and certainly a higher percentage of the Armenian population more quickly then the rate at which the Nazis killed Jews. Fact.
"I have the honor to report to the Embassy about one of the most severest measures ever taken by any government and one of the greatest tragedies in all history. Practically every male Armenian of any consequence at all here has been arrested and put into prison. A great many of them were subjected to the most cruel tortures under which some of them died. Several hundred of the leading Armenians were sent away at night and it seems to be clearly established that most, if not all, of them were killed. Last week there were well founded rumors of a threatened massacre. I think there is very little doubt that one is planned. Another method was found, to destroy the Armenian race. This is no less than the deportation of the entire Armenian population,
The full meaning of such an order can scarcely be imagined by those who are not familiar with the peculiar conditions of this isolated region. A massacre, however horrible the word may sound, would be humane in comparison with it. In a massacre many escape but a wholesale deportation of this kind in this country means a lingering and perhaps even more dreadful death for nearly every one.
For people traveling as these Armenians who are going into exile will be obliged to travel it is certain death for by far the greater part of them. The fate of these people can readily be imagined. The method is perhaps a little more cultured than a massacre but it it will be far more effective and thorough. It is quite probable that many of them will be robbed and murdered en route as the roads are now filled with bands of pillaging Kurds. In any case, it is quite certain that almost all will die in one way or another before they ever reach their destination.
Leslie A. Davis - American Vice Consul in Harput Turkey - In a report to US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire Henry Morganthau dated June 30 1915 - U.S. National Archives. D.S. Record Group 59, Dec. File No. 867.4016/269 
"...everyone knows it is a case of going to one's death. …Those who have reached here are only a small portion, however, of those who started. By continuing to drive these people people on in this way it will be possible to dispose of all of them in a comparatively short time. The condition of these people indicated clearly the fate of those who have left and are about to leave from here. I believe nothing has been heard from any of them as yet and probably very little will be heard. The system that is being followed seems to be to have bands of Kurds awaiting them on the roads to kill the men especially and incidentally some of the others. The entire movement seems to be the thoroughly organized and effective massacre this country has ever seen. Not many men have been spared, however, to accompany those who are being sent into exile, for a more prompt and sure method has been used to dispose of them.
Leslie A. Davis - American Vice Consul in Harput Turkey - In a report to US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire Henry Morganthau dated July 11, 1915 - U.S. National Archives. D.S. Record Group 59, Dec. File No. 867.4016/122 
“…in regard to the expulsion of the Armenians from this region, or to speak more clearly, the wholesale massacre of these Armenians, as follows - Any doubt that may have been expressed in previous reports as to the Government's intention in sending away the Armenians have been removed and any hope that may have been expressed as to the possibility of some of them surviving has been destroyed. It has been no secret that the plan was to destroy the Armenian race as a race, but the methods have been more cold-blooded and barbarous, if not more effective, than I had first supposed.”
“It is impossible to say how many Armenians have been killed but it is estimated that the number as not far from a million. Greater misery could not be imagined. It was bad enough before when there were several thousand all in a most wretched condition. Now, when only the worst of them are left behind, the scene beggars all description. The dead and dying are everywhere. Each day there are many deaths and these will continue until all are gone. Dead bodies are to be seen there at any time. One sees dead bodies now in all directions and on every road...The whole country as one vast charnel house, or, more correctly speaking, slaughterhouse. When one sees men and women seventy or even eighty years old, lame, blind and sick, innocent women and children and helpless babies sent away to be killed or die and actually sees them dead or dying all around, it is impossible to conceive of any justification that can be urged for a measure so severe.” 
Leslie A. Davis - American Vice Consul in Harput Turkey - In a report to US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire Henry Morganthau dated July 24, 1915 - U.S. National Archives. D.S. Record Group 59, Dec. File No. 86.4016/269 --THOTH 15:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Direct Counter to the Cliam being made here that there was no Ottoman intention to kill Armenians and that if such were wished they could have found a better way 

message: "The criminal gangs who were released from the prisons, after a week's training at the War Ministry's training grounds, were sent off to the Caucasian front as the brigands of the Special Organization, perpetrating the worst crimes against the Armenians ... . The Ittihadists intended to destroy the Armenians, and thereby to do away with the Question of the Eastern Provinces." 
"In order to justify this enormous crime [of the Armenian genocide] the requisite propaganda material was thoroughly prepared in Istanbul. [It included such statements as:] the Armenians are in league with the enemy. They will launch an uprising in Istanbul, kill off the Ittihadist leaders and will succeed in opening up the straits [to enable the Allied fleets to capture Istanbul]. These vile and malicious incitements [were such, however, that they] could persuade only people who were not even able to feel the pangs of their own hunger." 
"among those Armenians who were atrociously wasted, despite the fact that they were most innocent, guiltless, and who had committed no crime whatsoever, were the Armenians of Bursa, Ankara, Eskiehir, and Konya." 
Ahmet Refik - Turkish Military Intelligence Officer in WWI - İki Komite-İki Kıtâl, İstanbul 1919 --THOTH 15:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional Counter to the Claim that the ottoman Authorities were acting in self defense or for military necessity 

message: This attempt of the Armenians to defend themselves against the Turkish attack in Van was promptly misrepresented in a communique' which was sent by Enver Pasha and the Turkish Government to Berlin, and thence spread all over the world, as an attack by bands of Armenian insurrectionists who, in the rear of the Turkish army had fallen prey upon the Muhammedan population. Out of 180,000 Moslems in the Vilayet of Van only 30,000 had succeeded in escaping! In a later report issued by the Turkish embassy in Berlin on October 1, 1915, the story was further embellished: "No fewer than 180,000 Moslems had been killed. It was not surprising that the Moslems had taken vengeance for this". Some 18 Turks, answering to the number of Armenians they had killed in Van, had turned into 180,000! This astonishing impudent lie has a kind of foundation. According to statistics there should be 180,000 Moslems, including 30,000 Turks and 150,000 Kurds, in the Vilayet of Van. The Turks fled westwards when the Russian army advanced, while the 150,000 Kurds remained where they were, and were molested neither by the Russians nor the Armenians" 
Dr. Fridtjof Nansen - Armenia and the Near East - 1928 - p. 302 --THOTH 15:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding Clims that Van was a "rebellion" and that Turks were massacred there 

message: I dont know where to start. If you go to an Armenian site or read an armenian books you encounter many selective copy pastes like that. However I want to warn everybody including our Armenian friends here of the deception of Vahan Dadrian and his follovers. their speciality is selective copy pasting. So seeing that you used Nogales and Ahmet Refik I assume that you take them at face value and see them as trusted sources. Then lets start with nogales and se what else he says...
Indeed Nogales was in the ottoman army. But he was in the army not in Van city that is probably why he talks about Van events so late. Actually armeian sources and the testimony I have put above start the event much earlier see the outrageous Van resistance article in wiki for that. So it seems nogales was away from the first incident. Still mark that they were expecting an uprising. This is minor issue lets see what else he says. my notes are in parantheses..
NOGALES
"After hostilities had actually commenced, the Deputy to the Assembly for Erzurum, Garo Pasdermichan, passed over with almost all the Armenian troops and officers of the Third Army to the Russians;  (all troops and army to russian side All of them ottoman armenians. Now this is really some treachery) to return with them soon after, burning hamlets and mercilessly putting to the knife all of the peaceful Mussulman villagers that fell into their hands. These bloody excesses had as their necessary corollary the immediate disarmament by the Ottoman authorities of the gendarmes and other Armenian soldiers who still remained in the army (probably because they had been unable to escape (this is by noglales)) and the utilization of their labour in the construction of highways and in carrying provisions back and forth across the mountains. (so it seems the Turks did not just go crazy and statr killing their own troops when Russians were oproachig. Oh soory there was no killing at all) The altogether unjustifiable desertion of the Armenian troops, united to the outrages they committed afterwards, on their return, in the sectors of BashKaleh, Serail, and Bayacet, did not fail to alarm the Turks and rouse their fear lest the rest of the Armenian population in the frontier provinces of Van and Erzurum revolt likewise, and attack them with the sword. This indeed is precisely what happened a few weeks after my coming, when the Armenians of the vilayet of Van rose en masse (now this is strange) against our expeditionary army (meaning a small force for exporation) in Persia; thus giving rise to bloody and terrible occurrences which, under the circumstances, might have been foreseen."
Rafael Nogales
Four Years Beneath the Crescent, 1926, p. 45
'About Ahmet refik'
here I have presented several armenian books and as usual I always tried to give the full source and link when ever possible. You have tried to dicredit these Armenians including your firts Prime minister. I will not do so that I will just continue reading the book. If you knew some ottoman Turkis you would have seen the books name is tranlated as "two paries/Commitees two massacres" and probably stay away from it but you fall victim to Dadrian style selective copy pasting. Just let me remind that he was out of army work at the year of 1913 another Dadrian forgery. I may talk about the rest if I find the whole book. http://www.biyografi.net/kisiayrinti.asp?kisiid=197. in turkish but trust me on this.. 
Lets read what else the same book says...
"Two Committees and Two Massacres," Istanbul, 1919, pp.
71–72, describing Erzincan: "..fresh corpses lying about in the streets and deep in the wells covered with blood not yet dried were those of the poor Turks killed by Armenians. When looked down into the narrow wells, a bad odor would strike the nose and one would feel faint. Hairs and pieces of clothes of the unfortunate Turks were still there stuck to the stones of the wells. Places of ruins, places of burnt down houses, bottoms of the walls were filled with the corpses of the Turks, severed arms, skulls, fatty leg bones, bodies not yet decayed. People were grieved and wretched. Those wandering in the downtown were without shoes, with burnt faces and in tattered clothes. Only grass was on sale in the shops to feed the people. Wheat was not available anywhere but with the military command. Were it not for the kindness of the Commander, even the Sub-governor would no doubt starve to death."
and in another book the reliable source of Dadrian Ahmet refik Describes Erzurum. READ it and see why we will newer accept your genocide stories. Remember we did not read them from books or learned in school. We also listened them from our grand fathers.
"On the Roads of the Caucasus," describing Erzurum: "I am in a place destroyed by fire. This historical and devoted land of the Turks lay in ruins. Streets, buildings, mosques, madrasas and entirely destroyed houses are filled up with bodies. When the rubbles of burnt down houses are slightly moved heads of men and children, arms, legs, parts and pieces of bodies and feet are revealed.... While fighting against the Ottoman Army in the formation of armed bands outside the town, the Armenians were killing the people in the town by stuffing them into caserns and shutting in houses. Sometimes they chopped the heads on a log and threw the bodies into wells.... There is nothing under the rubbles of walls but Turkish bodies. When the soil is slightly dug, a human arm would first appear, then the head and the whole body displaying a tragic scene. Corpses were so rotten that brains would flow out at the slightest touch, grinning chins would disintegrate and fatty, burnt and crushed chests would appear naked and wretched in soiled clothes.... The Armenian savagery had terribly devastated Erzurum. Streets were all filled with bodies of women and children.(yes but these woman an children are Turks they dont count onlyAarmenian woman and children are eligible for mercy) Women’s breasts and even private organs were nailed to walls. Children’s lungs were hanging from telegraph wires. Entirely naked woman bodies with pierced abdomens were put in rows on both sides of the road. When we had seen this state of my unfortunate nation, we became almost crazy. I wonder if civilized Europe will try to find out those who are guilty of these crimes.(of course not. in the future the victims will be known as butchers, killers etc. in adition Antranik the butcher will be a national heroe) History has never recorded such brutalities before. They caught innocent maidens, attacked them like wild animals and satisfied themselves on their innocent bodies and then ripped their abdomens with bayonets and threw them onto ruins. We were occupied for weeks to gather these corpses, take their photographs and bury them. While entering the town it was terrible to see the roadsides. On both sides were arranged woman corpses. The genital organs of women were torn and male genital organs were pushed into. Tears were coming involuntarily from my eyes and I was feeling a bitter curse at the deepest point of my heart."
Arent we a patient and incredible nation not to hate armenians, whereas Armenians are raising their children with hate. So my friend When you take a selective copy paste from Dadrian Be Very carefull.
I will not waste my time on other quotes that prove nothing I will quote Thoth instead "Funny you present here the second hand testimony of (missionaries who pledged and oath to end the unholly devil empire/ officers of a nations at war with Ottomans) who likewise refers to second hand reports all of which is filled with generalizing assumptions far beyond what this individual could ever expect to knwo as fact.". Alas .... this is the genocide proof and with this of course you cantgo near an international court...
About germans I did not check your sources but just lets hear a German who was REALLY there
General Lieutenant a.d. Bronsart von Schellendorf, former Chief of the General Staff of the Turkish Field Troops, recent Commander of the Royal Prussian Infantry Division.
"They have happened ever since Armenians and Kurds have lived in close proximity in the borderlands of Russia, Persia, and Turkey. Kurds are nomads and raise animals. The Armenians are acre farmers, artisans, or businessmen. The Kurd has no school experience, doesn't know money or the worth of money, and knows that being taxed is forbidden through the Koran. The Armenian, as business man, uses the inexperience of the Kurd in a scrupulous manner, and takes advantage of him. The Kurd feels that he has been cheated, takes revenge on him, and the Armenian atrocities are ready. It must be said that differences in religion never have anything to do with this.
The revolt had been prepared way before it took place, as the many bulletins, brochures, weapons, ammunition and explosives found in the areas populated by Armenians made it clear. It was surely instigated and funded by Russia.
An Armenian conspiracy against high government works and officers in Istanbul was discovered on time.
Since all the able Moslem men were in the army, it was easy for the Armenians to begin a horrible slaughter of the defenseless Moslem inhabitants in the area. They did not just go against the Turkish Eastern front army from a flank or at its back, but they simply cleaned out the Moslem inhabitants in those areas. They performed gruesome deeds, of which I, as an eye witness honestly say that they were much worse than what Turks have been accused of as an Armenian atrocity.
The Minster of the Interior was Talaat, and he had to make the decisions and give the directives. The Army was in its most vital stage of fighting. The Moslem inhabitants were fleeing from the terror of the Armenians. In this critical situation, the whole ministry came to the difficult decision to name the Armenians dangerous to the state, and to remove them from the border areas to a less inhabited, but fruitful area, to Northern Mesopotamia. The Minister of the Interior gave the task to the Gendarmerie, trained to deal with this assignment.
Talaat was no thoughtless murderer, but a far sighted statesman. He saw in the Armenians, who now were under the influence of the Russians and others who had Great-Armenia dreams, but in quieter times, were very useful citizens, hoped that removed from the Russian influence and away from the Kurdish quarreling, they would, with their intelligence and work ethics make their new home luscious and fruitful.
He also saw further on that the Entente press would use the relocation of the Armenians as a hypocritical propaganda of Anti-Christianism, and he would have even for that reason alone avoided any harsh treatment of the Armenians. (I wonder did he foresaw it will last 100 years).
The unusually difficult task to keep thousands of Moslem refugees and in another area Armenians on their assigned marching ways, to lead, feed, find shelter for them all, was over-whelming to the too few who could not cover the masses, nor most often had no idea of how to do so. Talaat did his utmost to help. Even into my hands came requests and demands to the Army to assist whenever possible, to provide food, shelter, doctors and medicine to the civilians under way. Unfortunately, even with all the help that was possible, thousands of Moslems as well as Armenians died and it goes on read the rest here http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/german-witness.htm
I will not even waste a second on Morgenthau and his armenian officers and Lepsius who simply took al documents from morgenthau. the guys are long wasted in the academic fields. but if needed in mediation we can talk about it. I humbly ask every one to wait for mediation instead of this continious efford. we both know you will not move an inc... maybe me too...neurobio 22:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You should know better then to use Bronsart as a source as he was active in both propoganda and even actions against Armenians. His views are well known and his commentary can be virewed as nothing but propoganda - Talat as a "far sighted statesman" - come now - by what measure - I don't even think most Turks would buy that. It is interesting that he mentions Muslim refugees. In fact the Ottoman Government managed to succesfully resettle upwards of 900,000 Muslim refugees from outlying Ottoman Areas into Anatolia and did provide them with sufficient food and medicine and such that there were very few losses - quite unlike the Armenian experience. As for all the rest - again - that some Armenians (and if you look carefully these are in primarily or even exclusivly in reference to Russian Armenians and the time periods of these observations are also not clear (I do see 1919 in one) - and while some of the perpetrators of these incidents/crimes may have been Ottoman Armenians who fled and joined the Russians - consider the circumstance - the mass devestation and destruction and murder that they had witneessed and that they had lost everything...I'm sure that many were driven quite mad with only thoughts of revenge. It is still a sad legacy that these sort of strocities did occur (but it still is not Genocide nor do isolated instances like this justify such...and the vast majority of such occured after the Genocide so could not be justification anyway)...its also not clear in all case who actually did these things - be it Armenians fighting with the Russians or the Russians themselves or Cossaks who were fighting with the Russians and were known for their cruelty (specifically towards Muslims). SO yes these things did happen and they are a great tragedy of war...but if you could comprhend the written word you would understand the cast differences between isolated massacres - however terrible they might have been - and the organized government sponsored massive campaign of Genocide that did occur to the Armenians. You can make counter charges all you want - but the truth is known - you have not presented anything new here. BTW Nogalas was in charge of the Ottoman artillery that pounded Van during the period just prior to the arrival of the Russians...and perhaps if you had actually read his book - rahter then relying on TallTurkishLie you might actually understand the context of things that you post.--THOTH 23:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Just reading this little bit from Bronsart again just makes me laugh particualry when he characterizes the move of Armenians form their homes to the Syrian desert as "to remove them from the border areas to a less inhabited, but fruitful area, to Northern Mesopotamia" - please - everyone can see this for what it is - a propoganda piece - pure and simple and nothing more. And it also has been well shown that Armenians were not just "removed from the border areas"...I really don't think there is need to repeat such. I would also like to add that it is not news that many Armenian men were used as laborers for the Army and workign in the Berlin-Bahgdad Railroad...and were killed over time - some earlier in the war and some not until later. Again - this is nothing new - it is well known and well documented. As to why someone might be surprised that an Armenian man might desert the Ottoman Army after being used as slave labor and after perhaps getting news of the destruction of his family, town, vilaage or what have you...well I will just leave you in the dark on this one I guess..--THOTH 23:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  let see what else they say 

message: Most of the sources are from writers whose names end with "ian". Why not any Turkish source, because wikipedia is taken over by bunch of Armenians. I see them everywhere, every related article. I see their profile pages, full of hatred against Turkey and Turks. 
I'm a Turk who recognizes Armenian Genocide but what I see on wikipedia makes me think again. 
If you want Turkish people to recognize Armenian Genocide, you should treat them like humans. 
It's a simple advice, though I don't think anyone ever going to concern.
:Check the first two names at the top of the article's bibliography section. No -ians or -yans there.The Myotis 17:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ians 

message: Decimating means killing 10%
Did the Russians decimate the III Army or destroy it? chrisboote 14:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To decimate also means "To severely reduce; to destroy almost completely", see wikt:decimate. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 14:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "decimating it in its entirety" 

message: I just wanted to say that the song by SoaD called "X" leads to a single by British popgroup Liberty X. Since the article is locked, I cannot change it. --Soetermans 10:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ? Relevance? SOAD deserves but a minor footnote...IMO. --THOTH 21:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, but a wrong link is a wrong link nontheless. --Soetermans 21:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  LOL - I understand now (and perhaps this was done as a vandalism - who knows) - but I thought you were saying that the song inspired this other groups to write/record some related song ro such...lol...and was thinking my - this is getting way off the mark. SO OK understand now...--THOTH 22:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Systen of a Down song 

message: Is Orhan Pamuk a novelist or historian? How can he be so sure about the reality of history? In other words, who DID give advice of what he should say? Zkaradag 05:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reality of history? He's a novelist, not a philosopher. yandman 16:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The validity of Orhan Pamuk 

message: I am not sure the reality but based on the news from gossip newspaper (as you had done so far) Fatma Gocek had taken an incredible amount of money from Zoryan Institue! Is there anyone who can explain this? Zkaradag 05:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Haha I think you answered your own question by citing your source as a gossip newspaper. Also I don't think its valid to start a new topic based on a gossip newspaper.KingVegeta2000 07:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: What is more relevant (and factual) I think is the money Dennis Hastert and others have taken from various Turkish groups...and other such things (consistant with an aggressive Turrkish Government sponsored campaign of Genocide denial). And even if true - perhaps Gochek is writing a book or such as Zoran does sponsor such things. Instead of ad hominem attacks against the messanger your would do better to actually read what schoars (including Turks like Akcam) are saying - you might actually learn something. --THOTH 16:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: No but perhaps a page on the Turkish Historical Society is in order...or an expose on Turkish Government funding of lobbyists and establishment of acadmic chairs at American Universities (and the stringgs attached for reserchers in Ottoman history and so on...but really now - do you have anything of substance to add to the article or are you just looking for someone to put you in touch with David Irving inhopes of getting some grant money yourself?--THOTH 03:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Money paid to Fatma Muge Gocek 

message: Well, I attempted to clarify the Turkish position better, since as a Turkish person I am confident I know the position of my nation better, but alias all-knowing Armenians such as Marshall have corrected me even on my own nation's position. Maybe he will be so good as to describe which of what I wrote below was wrong?
At present, the overwhelming majority of the people and the government of the Republic of Turkey, as well as those of neighbouring Azerbiajan, do not accept the label of genocide, view the deaths of Armenians during World War 1 as part of a civil war and prefer to refer to the events as a relocation, adeportation or a massacre. Nationalist lawyers have often used Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code that prohibits insulting "Turkishness" to persucate intellectuals based on their views regarding the Armenian massacres; but Turkish courts have acquitted the prosecutees in all of the cases, except that of Turkish Armenian writer Hrant Dink. The Turkish government has frequently protested against recognition of the genocide by other countries. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.180.4.109 (talk • contribs) 05:58, 25 November 2006.
:noted --THOTH 23:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Turkish Position 

message: ""Armenia had largely come under Ottoman rule during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. In the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Muslim dhimmi system, Armenians, as all Christians, were guaranteed limited freedoms (such as the right to worship), but were in essence treated as second-class citizens. Referred to in Turkish as gavours, a pejorative word meaning "infidel" or "unbeliever",[25] Christians were not considered equals to Muslims: testimony against Muslims by Christians and Jews was inadmissible in courts of law.""
In ottoman empire, Armenians were have a private judgement system which under Armenian Churchs.  So their freedoms was dependen their church, not to empire or muslims.They were have their own law. And armenians can be live like a Muslim. Only difference is about to taxes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.235.76.220 (talk) 18:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  About life under ottoman rules