Talk:Persian Gulf/Archive 5

message: This is for WP admins regarding the Neutrality tag:
Neutrality tag has been used due to the fact that other POV of Arabs side has been always suppressed, that is: Arabic name for this sea in Arabic is Al Khaleej Al Arabi الخليج العربي but not Al Faresi. Other old names has been used in Arabic for this water body like: Khaleej Al Basra, Khaleej Elqateef, besides to Khaleej el Ajam (Persians). The recent and dominate name for it in Arabic language is the Arabian Gulf as it could be found in the UN records (in Arabic) besides to all Arabic records of organizations (working out of Iran) and governments of all Arab states, and used by ~300 million Arabic speakers.
Naming dispute has been ascribed to Nasser (20th century) while dozens of ancient maps and references using other name for it (Arabian Gulf, Elqateef, Basra) has been clearly suppressed by some Iranian users here, which is clear bias for this page in info within. Thus, neutrality tag has been used. Hope discussion can reach a middle point sooner to show up all POVs and reach a NPOV using all refs from all sides. For WP admins, you can read POV of other side (that has been always suppressed here) in the previous talks and comments within this talk page. Ralhazzaa 10:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Arabian Gulf is a new nomeclature as has been shown by Western reference.  We can say Old Arabic name (this is the oldest Arabic name): بحر فارس and new Arabic name: خلیج عربی.  I have already brought a list of 300+ authors who have used Persian Gulf.  There is no textual evidence for Arabian Gulf and few maps in the same book have Persian Gulf and use Persian Gulf in their text and their newer editions use Persian Gulf only.   No ancientg Greek maps or reference uses Arabian Gulf as you were shown by Pliny who uses Persian Gulf for Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf for the read.  Couple (just three four authors) of european maps that have Arabian Gulf have Persian Gulf in the same book and use Persian Gulf in the text and their newer editions use Persian Gulf and there is no textual evidence for Arabian Gulf and you can't make OR.The Persian Gulf is the main name in the English language >  It has been used by Pliny while Arabian Gulf in ancient European maps refers to the red sea and not Persian Gulf.  Also 300 million Arab speakers do not use the name you claim.  I know for a fact that many Iraqis do not use it.  And no your POV has not been suppressed anywhere specially in the talk page.    As recognized by the United States Board on Geographic names, the name of the body of water that lies between Iran and the Arab states of the Gulf Cooperation Council is the Persian Gulf.  For political reasons, Arabs often refer to it as the Arab or Arabian Gulf (The Persian Gulf at the Millennium: Essays in Politics, Economy, Security, and Religion edited by Gary G. Sick, Lawrence G. Potter, pg 8).  The Arab-Iranian nomenclatural controversy over the Gulf, which was so bitter in the late 50s and early 60s, was a by-product of the late President Nasser of Egypt's brand of Arab nationalism ... 'Arabian Gulf' is in fact a recent Arab appellation for that body of water...( Eilts, Hermann F. "Security Considerations in the Persian Gulf." International Security :Vol. 5, No. 2. (Autumn, 1980), pp. 79-113. ) --alidoostzadeh 11:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  cool down, alidoostzadeh! this comment was'nt part of the discussion about the info and refs in this page, neither was a talk with you! It was an answer for WP admins asked why the neutrality tag has been used here. I'm not going to repeat all the long talk with you and your mates as it looks useless and you always go back to the first square. Discussion in the talk page with some users here is like a waste of our time and focus to enhance this page. It is clear that most info in this page have been politicized toward Iranian POV and suppressing Arabian POV -as the history of edits and addings by Arab editors has been suppressed always by you and your colleagues. We, all Arab editors here, know other facts than yours and provided tons of refs (always falsified by you.. this is normal as u r on the other side)! So, as these fatcs have been always reverted by you and your mates (of Iranian POV), info in this page is highly biased toward one extreme geopolitical direction and far away from neutrality. Salam Ralhazzaa 12:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  و علیکم السلامThere is no room for Arab or Iranian POV.  We just bring materials from reliable scholars and not OR.  Simple as that.  In the English world it is Persian Gulf.  And stop accusing others of falsification when you can not answer. Anyways the issue was with the Arabic name.  Before Nasser, you will not find خلیج عربی in the Arab world.  Currently many Shi'ite Muslims who are not affected by the bathist or pan-arabist nationalism do not use خلیج عربی either.  But my proposal was to split the Arabic name into two.  One classical name and one the more modern name.  You did not respond.  --alidoostzadeh 18:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality tag 

message: Seriously... again? There are steps at dispute resolution that may assist in defusing the recurring controversy over this article; I would advise you all to use them. If things get cleared up within the next couple weeks, feel free to request unprotection. Otherwise, the protection will expire on May 29. -- tariqabjotu 23:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article protected 

message: The Persian Gulf (Persian: خليج فارس - Khalīj-e Fārs; in Classical Arabic: بحر الفارس Bahr al-Fārs, in  in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Gulf of Oman located between Iran (Persia) and the Arabian Peninsula.Pejman.azadi 11:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The true description: Persian Gulf 

message: Dear All,
Please be advised that the true translation of Persian Gulf's name in modern arabic is Al-Khalij-e- Al farsi or in Arabic:  الخیج الفارسی 
Thank you for your kind concern.Pejman.azadi 11:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The true translation of Persian gulf's name in Arabic is: Al-khalij-e-al farsi  الخیج الفارسی  

message: Before Christ, the Arabs were living more in Hejaz, Yemen, and coasts of Red Sea (ArabianGulf) and were not that much familiar with Persian Gulf. After Ardeshir, king of Iran during
Sassanid era campaigned to Yemen upon request of Seif Ibn Ziyazan, governor of Yemen to
suppress Abyssinian, the event lead to traffic of Arabs at the coasts of Persian Gulf. With the
emergence of Islam and expansion of this religion to Iran, the immigration of Arabs to the
coasts of PERSIAN GULF increased. However, in more than 30 geographical, historical,
literary, books or the books on interpretation of morals, and jurisprudence, the Muslims and
Arab scientists have described PERSIAN GULF. Such books as: Albaladan, History of
Yaghoubi, Almaghari, Fotouhalsham, Fatholajam, written by Mohammad Ibn Omar (70 lunar
calendar), History of Moghimi, History of Alrosol Valmouk (Mohammad Ibn Jarir Tabari),
History of Balami, Ibn Khardazabeh, Ibn Faghih Hamedani, Estakhri, Masoudi, Moghadasi,
Ibn Houghal, Ghazvini, Taher Marvazi, Naser Khosrow, Shamseddin Dameshghi, Ghodameh
Ibn Jafar, Ibn Yaghoub, Ibn Rasteh, Shahriar Ramhormozi, Ibn Balkhi, Edrisi, Bakran
Khorasani, Yaghout Hamoudi, Abolfada, Nobari, Joveyni, Haji Khalifeh (Chalabi), Jorji
Zeydan, all have used the name of Persian Gulf in their books since 207 (lunar calendar) so
far.Pejman.azadi 11:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian Gulf in the Islamic Period 

message: As of 1507 to 1960, at least in 10 contracts concluded among the countries such as Kuwait,
Arabia, Ottoman, Oman, United Emirates, compiled in English and Arabic, the name of
PERSIAN GULF has been used. From among the aforesaid contracts the following can be
mentioned:
1. General contract with Arabian Emirs on Jan. 8, 1820 between Sheikhs of United
Emirates at PERSIAN GULF, signed by General Cairo and 11 chiefs of Arab Tribes,
the word: Alkhalij Alfarsi has been used in the Arabic texts.
2. Contract of 1947 on Prohibition of Slaves Sales.
3. Permanent Contract of Peace in 1853.
4. Treaty of 1856 on Slaves Trade.
5. Contract on Independence of Kuwait (this deed was registered on June 19, 1961 with
Secretariat of United Nations.
6. Treaty on Determination of Border Lines of Iraq and Kuwait (1996)
Also in the political and legal and economic accords concluded between United Emirates and
the other countries during the years of 1806 to 1971, the word: Bahre Fars or PERSIAN
GULF has been used.Pejman.azadi 11:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: dear "new-comer", it would much better to read the previous discussions before filling up this page with somehting already has been said by people have the same PoV of yours. We all know what u want to say and hear it already many times, but u should notice that this is your own POV but others may have different POV of your (surprisingly could be true!)... now we are trying to discusse this issue in more friendly and less noisy way. I noticed that u were taking long nap in WP since a year and just made few editings only related to this page. Cool down and save the space in this page for serious and more technical talk rather than your mass-ideology flooding here! Ralhazzaa 12:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, don't tell people what to do as this is not your personal property.  The talks were serious and these contracts are important and should be mentioned.  You need to either stick by the consensus or give a new suggestion, since your old suggestion was rejected.  My suggestion on the other hand was sourced.--alidoostzadeh 11:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought it was a good suggestion. I accept it.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 11:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Don't tell people what to do as this is not your personal property.  He is improving wikipedia and he is a new user.  He brought proof from contracts used by Arab countries that have used Persian Gulf officially and these can be used in the article. --alidoostzadeh 11:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If someone fills a talk page up with repetitive and unhelpful points, I am fully entitled to tell him not to do it.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 11:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually where in the talk page it is repeated: As of 1507 to 1960, at least in 10 contracts concluded among the countries such as Kuwait,
Arabia, Ottoman, Oman, United Emirates, compiled in English and Arabic, the name of PERSIAN GULF has been used.?  That seems like new information.  This article has 4 archives and users need to come up with solution.  I believe the consensus version should be kept since this is best that has so far came out of these talks.  Of course if Iranian and Arab users can agree to a new consensus that is fine.  But until then the consensus version agreed upon by both sides and specially an Arab admin (means that he has contributed very posivetly to wikipedia and good for him) should be observed.  --alidoostzadeh 11:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A consensus is not a consensus unless everyone agrees. You imposed a consensus that did not exist. This is the reason why these problems exist. The suggestion was to have the common Arabic name along with an English translation of it. As simple as that. I don't know why you have such a problem with this, since no Arab editor is demanding that Persian Gulf is removed from the intro or the title. As for your new friend here, constantly repeating a POV statement on the talk page is not helpful. I suggest you inform him of this.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 12:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually consensus by definition means most people agree.  But I did not impose a consensus, users came to consensus.  As per the changes you want, I have no problem with it as long as there is footnote with the fact that the name was created for political reason.  This is also a fact and I won't mention created by pan-arabism next to it, but I want a footnote with exact quote which I brought from scholarly sources.  Also I have digged up Arab books and some Arab politicans (already mentioned Hakim) that have used Persian Gulf.  So I guess we should have Arabic Gulf (more common in the Arab world-footnote), but Persian Gulf is used in some books published and also by Arab politicans.  Of course any history book, article on history, hadeeths, etc.. published also by nature uses Persian Gulf.  So User Ralhazza wants something different than you.  Another optinion would be to mention what you want in the footnote.  The problem is that I am not sure what different users want.  I suggest each user puts their suggestion (without any discussion) in a section and will see what happens.  --alidoostzadeh 00:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Pejman Azadi: No-one is refuting what you are saying and no-one is arguing for a change in the title of this article from its current name. We are all agreed that Persian Gulf is the most commonly used name in the English language and that this should be the name used in the title and throughout the article. The debate is over whether the introduction should include (1) the commonly used Arabic name and (2) the English translation of the Arabic name. The whole argument could end quickly if this was agreed.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 12:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PERSIAN GULF in Contracts and Accords 

message: Persian Gulf has a true translation in arabic, that is Al-khalije-alfarsi الخليج الفارسي
All of us know that there are some gulfs and seas such as the Gulf of Mexico of the United States or China Sea, sea of Korea...
Moreover there is already a sea of Arabia, also called sea of Oman, on the other hand Persia is a civilization which is one of oldest in this area, so it is a world responsibility to keep the name of this sea, and the only reason to use of Persian Gulf's name is its wide range usage in the world community based on legal agreements and also historical obvious documents. I am sure that my arab friends respect to the world legal laws.Pejman.azadi 12:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pejman Assadi: Repeating the same point over and over again on this talk page is not helpful and could be seen as disruptive. I realise that you have strong opinions on this issue, but let's try to find a way out of this. Al Khaleej Al Arabi (Arabian Gulf) is the name used by all Arab states in the region. It doesn't matter whether you think this is right or wrong, but this is the official name in these states and the most commonly used name in the Arab world. As such, it should be used in the introduction as the alternative Arabic name.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 12:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian Gulf  الخليج الفارسي 

message: Dear all friends,
I think we are speaking about Persian Gulf not arabian gulf because arabian gulf is located in the red sea. I think the main problem of arab countries is finding a solution to saving the Palestine and their brothers in Palestine!!! not Persian Gulf's name.
On the other hand this is very obvious that nowadays we can find several legal approved documents in the museums, universities and international geographical institutes about Persian Gulf's name which they are showing this gulf is named Persian Gulf, so please don't forget this is a cultural point of view not a political point of view!!!For example you can not change the name of Gulf of Mexic, Gulf of Oman, Sea of Korea or another geogeraphical points, therefore this is a fact that this gulf is named  
Persian Gulf should be respected by all the nation who are living in this area and all of the world because of its old and valuable history which is belonged to the both of arab and Persian people as well to the all of the world people. It would be appreciated for your kind concern on this issue.Pejman.azadi 09:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pejman: Wikipedia is concerned with commonly used placenames not making judgements on the legality of placenames. The issue is whether Al-Khaleej al-Arabi is commonly used in Arab states (which it is, regardless of whether you think this is wrong) and whether this should be stated in the introduction, along with its English translation (Arabian Gulf). Your constant repetition of the same point is becoming disruptive and is not addressing the issue of the introduction to the article. If you continue to disrupt this talk page, you may be reported to the admins and/or your comments removed from the talk page. It seems we were trying to achieve something through discussion and you, in good faith but perhaps with encouragement from a more established user, have filled the talk page with your opinions.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 10:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Arabian Gulf is the name used by Arab Gulf states and this should be reflected in the introduction. Al-Khaleej al-Arabi was agreed by everyone here (including Ali DoostZadeh). The contentious issue was whether to include an English translation.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 11:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is not here to make judgements on right or wrong but to present things in a neutral fashion. Whether or not you think the Arabian Gulf is illegitimate or the result of an ideology is beside the point. The fact is that it is the official name used in Arab countries and this should be stated in the introduction. Again, there is no argument to present this as the common name in the English language and no-one is arguing for a change of article title to Arabian Gulf.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 11:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian Gulf is a obvious fact and it is supported with several international legal documents. 

message: The historical name of the Persian Gulf is a familiar name for all the countries in the world, particularly the countries of Middle East. Commenting on the issue, Egyptian Dr. Mostafa Alfaqi said, "In the decade of the 1950s, the cabinet of Iran's then prime minister Dr. Mohammad Mosaddeq was overthrown and his foreign minister Dr Hossein Fatemi was killed. The Shah, with his tense relations with Iraq on the Arvand-Roud (Shatt-ul-Arab) assumed the role of the region's gendarme in opposition to the government of Jamal Abdel Nasser. Therefore, the Arabs asked for the change of the name of the Persian Gulf to the Arabian Gulf when they saw that the Shah of Iran was supporting Israel and was against Arab nationalism."
It seems natural that some low-minded and prejudiced persons would want to change the authentic and historical name of the Persian Gulf, but it is not expected from intellectuals who should be clarifying public opinion with historical truths. Considering this fact, the prejudiced reaction of a person such as Jamal Abdel Nasser to a historical truth thousands of years old is regrettable. 
According to another narration, the forged name for Persian Gulf was fabricated and presented by a Jewish Syrian, Eli Cohen, who was one of the members of the Iraqi Baath Party in Damascus. As Iran and Egypt did not have friendly relations then, and as the Shahanshah of Iran was supporting Israel, the suggestion was welcomed by Cairo. Cohen was later accused of espionage, arrested for spying for Israel and executed in Damascus.
Considering all this, it seems improper that some news and official circles of Arab countries prefer prejudice to wisdom and use a false name for the Persian Gulf. The Persian Gulf was called by this name even before the advent of Islam. If there was any need to change the real and historical name of the Persian Gulf, the Prophet Mohammad would definitely have changed it. So, what is the reason that some Arab countries chauvinistically call for the change of this real and historical name, merely because it bears a Persian name?
How is that some Arab countries, neglecting all the historical truths, insist on using the false name, but expect Iranians not to inform those centres that use this false name? Iranians call those interested parties to use the real name of the Persian Gulf is not the result of racial prejudice, but it is a logical measure that is accepted by any wise and fair person, as it is accepted in international circles, including the United Nations, and all are suggested to observe it.Pejman.azadi 04:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please say your have with documentary reasons not fake information and racism, this is Persian Gulf , الخليج الفارسي ‎, al-Khalīj al-Fārisī 

message: First off, Pejman - Your constant edits don't improve Wikipedia, or help your cause at all! Stop changing the page and stop writing the same thing again and again. It's obvious that 90% of Arabs now use the term Arabian Gulf. There's no denying that!
Second, to Ralhazzaa: You simply cannot change the lead sentence without consensus - Consensus takes time, and until then things should stay as they were. You also are also not improving Wikipedia or helping your cause at all. I think a consensus was near, and now I fear that people are going to get angry and lock the page again! I was going to change the lead, but decided against it. I'll wait for others opinion on your change without consensus first.--210.2.198.2 12:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Who r u buddy? better to register in Wikipedia and sign in your name to know u better. No consensus has been approached so far as u can notice up this section. Eventhough, my editing is not removing any word!! I just added resources (as WP requries, if u may know) and added classical names where the classical names are mentioned, with resources as well. If someone has references, then bring it up or keep watching. Unresourced info should be tagged with  till it referenced. This is what the rules says.. no politics here or ideiology.. but some users can't tolerate the fact that others may have the truth! Ralhazzaa 11:30, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, no consensus has been reached, but that doesn't mean you can change things to your liking. The discussion was with what should be put in the lead. You made the decision without anyone's consent. I can do the same, but I shan't as I'm waiting for a democratic solution. Remember that Wikipedia isn't a dictatorship. I recommend you revert the lead back yourself until a consensus is reached.--210.2.198.2 12:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your IP address suggests you may be using an open proxy server. It traces back to the Ichikawa Cable Network in Japan, whose IP range is 210.2.198.0-210.2.252.255. An IP address in this range has already been confirmed as an open proxy by Wikimedia. Anon users using open proxy IPs have already appeared on this talk page and have reverted changes to this article. The situation on this talk page is already problemmatic with personal and ethnic attacks without having the intervention of possible sockpuppets using open proxy servers in order to agitate. It is easier to sign up to Wikipedia than to go through open proxies, so why not do it?--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 12:42, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, really? I didn't know that! Thanks for that Hamid. I've signed-up! New profile name is: Persan en Japon. --Persan en Japon 12:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There appear to be lots of Persians living in Japan who are interested in this article. The previous Japanese Persian commenting here (219.3.72.45) was using a different Japanese IP (Softbank BB). I don't know if it is an open proxy server.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 13:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

text: There are lots of Iranian people in Japan - Not all of them Persian. Softbank BB is an ISP here, just like Ichikawa-Cable Network. Japanese servers all use proxies for privacy purposes. I'm not Iranian by the way.--Persan en Japon 13:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change of lead WITHOUT Consensus 

message: Article has now been fully protected against revert-warring ... again! Second time in a month. Can you guys please discuss the proposed changes here first as this edit war is so wasteful of everyone's time. - Alison ☺ 12:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: GREAT! Look what your decision to change the lead has done Ralhazzaa! This is getting out of hand! Please wait for consensus next time! ARGH!
I don't know why Ralhazzaa wants to change the fact??? this is Persian Gulf and even through fals information you can not change the fact, arabian gulf is located in red sea, all the geogeraphical maps show it. This is very obvious that you want to start a war here....please remember that we are here to improve the Wikipedia, your acts don't help the Wikipedia!!! all of us read here several documentary reasons about Persian Gulf's name so please stop your act. Pejman.azadi 12:54, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fully protected 

message: After England's attack on Khark Island in 1837, the government of Iran at that time protested
to England's separatist policy in the PERSIAN GULF and officially warned the government
of Britain to avoid mischief intended at separating the southern side of Iran. This warning
caused the Times Journal, published in London in 1840, to name the PERSIAN GULF for the
first time as Britain Sea, but such a name never found any place.
Moreover, following nationalization of the oil industry in Iran in 1950 and dispossession of
English Companies and discontinuation of relations between Iran and England, the Ministry
of English Colonies, for the first time used the incorrect name of this water body.
In these years, the States South of the Persian Gulf were either colonies of Britain or under its
support. To compensate its defeat, the government of England published a book by Roderick
Oven, an agent of English Spy Org., in 1957 which was immediately translated into Arabic.
In this book the assassination of the name PERSIAN GULF began and in 1966, Sir Charles
M. Belgrieve, the political agent of England in the affairs of Persian Gulf Southern States
supported by England, published a book at the end of his mission named: Golden Bulbs at
Arabic Gulf.
After coup of Abdolkarim Ghasem in 1958 in Iraq and then coup by Baas and their claims for
some lands against Iran, they avoided using the name of PERSIAN GULF for political
reasons.
In 1960, after Iran and Egypt's disconnection of relationships and after the Arab-Israeli war,
anti Iranian actions culminated due to the previous Iranian regime’s support of Israel. This
occurred in Arabic Circles and in a congress of Baas Party convened at Damascus, in which
participating heads demanded for change of the name of PERSIAN GULF to the forged name
of Arabic gulf, without relying on any legal and historical document. Following this, to
achieve the political motive, they altered this historical name in the text books of Arabic
Countries.
After the Islamic Revolution in 1987, followed by breaking relations between USA and Iran,
and commencement of the imposed war of Iraq against Iran, there have been some efforts to
apply incorrect words instead of the Name Persian Gulf. Most of these efforts were not on
purpose but resulted from unawareness of facts. Though, in USA the geographic and
publication institutes have been hardly influenced by other countries, but in 2005, we
witnessed that the reputable National Geographic Society, with a past history of not accepting
and using forged words in its works, distorted the name of PERSIAN GULF and Iranian
islands and intentionally mentioned incorrect inf ormation. This action only helped damaging
its own international credibility, but ultimately, it surrendered to protests of Iranians
throughout the world and corrected its error.
It is interesting that Mr. Roderick Oven stipulated in Golden Bulbs at Arabic Gulf:
"I visited all parts of PERSIAN GULF and believed that it was Persian Gulf, because I
noticed no map or deed, unless it had named the place as Persian Gulf, but when I watched it
closely, I found out that the people residing at the southern beaches are Arabs, therefore, to be
polite, we should name it: Arabic Gulf."
Either Mr. Roderick Oven should have noticed that on the northern sector of that water body,
up to 1269 km of coast exists with a far larger population who speak Farsi. This is larger than
the Arabian population he was concerned about. He did not notice the important fact that this
sea was first named by the Greeks and neither Iranian nor Arabs took any part in it. The
Muslims and Arab Geographers learned the names from the Greeks and Romans, and used it
in their works, especially that they named Pars Sea, unanimously: Persian Gulf .
In the end, it is worth mentioning that the name of Persian Gulf has been admitted in all the
live languages of the world so far and all the countries throughout the world, name this
Iranian Sea, just in the language of the people: PERSIAN GULF. Even our Arab brothers do
not need to alter a historical name to have a gulf of their own, because there had been a gulf in
their own name previously mentioned in the historical and geographical works and drawings,
which is called at present the Red Sea (Bahr Ahmar).Pejman.azadi 06:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  JUST PERSIAN GULF (Background for Application of Incorrect Words Instead of PERSIAN GULF) 

message: In all the important historical maps and Atlas whether modern or belonging to previous
centuries, the water artery located at south of Iran has been registered as Persian Gulf. In the
Arabian countries too, it has always been named PERSIAN GULF up to the 70s. For instance,
in the Atlas "Alaragh fi Alkhavaret Alghadimeh" by Dr. Ahmad Souseh (Baghdad 1959)
including 40 maps among the Arabian sources of the Middle Ages. In the maps presented by
Arabian countries to the International Court of the Judiciary for settlements of border claims,
the name of PERSIAN GULF has been mentioned.
In Atlas of Alkuwait fi Alkharaet Alalam" some maps have been used where there exists the
name of PERSIAN GULF. In Atlas of "Alkuwait Ghara fi Alkharaet Altarikhieh" published
by the efforts of Abdollah Yousef Alghanim in 1994, there are about 200 maps mentioning
the name of PERSIAN GULF.
· The book: "Osoul Alkuwait Almanshour Alalam" (1991) published in the Netherlands
also contains 15 maps where the name of PERSIAN GULF exists.
· In the book: "Alkhalij alfars Abar Altarikh va Alghoroun" (written by Mohammad
Mirza, 1976 Cairo) there are 52 maps drawn out of Arabic sources, mentioning the
name of PERSIAN GULF.
· In Atlas of "History of Islam" (1951-55 America and Egypt) the name Persian Gulf
has been mentioned 16 times.
· In Atlas of "Khalij (Gulf) in the Historical Maps" (1999) excluding three maps which
were drawn after 15th century, seem to be included beside the other maps (all of which
mention the name of PERSIAN GULF) upon persistence of the honorable person
collecting them, where the name has been forged as: Arabic Gulf. In next maps, the
same cartographers have corrected the name to Persian Gulf.
The Arabic Bank and Beyt Alquran in Bahrain published a large wall calendar in 1996
containing the historical map of Bahrain in which all the maps contain the name of PERSIAN
GULF.
It is interesting that from among 6000 existing historical maps published up to 1890, there are
only three maps mentioning the names of Basreh Gulf, Ghatif Gulf, and Arabic Gulf, in
addition to which the name of small gulfs located at the coast with local utilization can be also
named such as Chah Bahar Gulf, Siraf Gulf, Basreh Gulf, Ghatif Gulf, Bahrain Gulf,…. but
such names are not applied to the entirety of the Persian Gulf.
It is obvious that the promotional use by the Arabs of the three aforementioned maps, whose
identity and originality are not clear, in comparison with 6000 maps and more than 200
historical and tourism books from Irastus to Herodotus to Estakhri and Ibn Houghal, who
have all called the water body, PERSIAN GULF, shall lack any value.
In the Arabic Dictionary Almonjamed, Library of American Congress, Britain National
Library (London), deeds at Ministry of India's Affairs (London), Library of Faculty of
Orientalist Studies of London, there are more than 300 maps, containing the name PERSIAN
GULF.
Furthermore, about 30 valid Atlas have registered the name of PERSIAN GULF within the
past 30 years, such as: Atlas of Thomas Herbert (1628), Atlas of Pars, Lousaj University
(1863), Atlas of Germany (1861), Pars Envile Atlas (1760), Atlas of Modern Geography
(1890), Atlas of London (1873), Atlas of Ernest Embrosius (1922), Atlas of Bilefild (1899),
Atlas of Harmsorth (19th Century, London),….
In 18th and 19th centuries when the government of Britain expanded its dominance over the
seas and according to some treaties was recognized as supporter and successor of Sheikhs on
the south sectors of the PERSIAN GULF, the official maps of the areas from East Seas of
Suez, specially India and PERSIAN GULF were drawn up as instructed by the government of
Britain, all of which reflect clearly the name of PERSIAN GULF. Some examples are as
follows:
1. The Empire of Persia prepared by D'Avnille in 1770.
2. A New Map of the Empire of Persia prepared by D'Avnille in 1794.
3. Persia Map prepared for the new Atlas by Thomsons in 1818.
4. Persia map prepared by Orme, Brown Longman, Rees in 1828.
5. Persia with part of the ottoman Empire prepared by G.long in 1831.
6. Central Asia Map, prepared by Alex Burnes in 1834.
7. Persia Map (1840) prepared for Atlas Black.
8. Persia Map prepared for Atlas Black in 1884.
9. Persia & Cabool Map prepared by A. K. Johnston in 1844.
10. Map of Persia, Cabul, etc. prepared by J. Arrowsmith in 1873.
11. Map of Persia & Afghanistan prepared by A. C. Block in 1854.
12. Maps under title: Map of Persia published in 1886 (this ma p was prepared upon
instruction by Ministry of Seafaring and by Information Services of Ministry of War
of England.)
13. Map of Persia prepared by Captain St. John upon instruction by Vice -Minister at
Indian Affairs, England Cabinet in 1874.
14. Map of Persia pr epared by Information Sector of English Ministry of War in 1891.
15. Map of Iran, Afghanistan and Balouchestan published under supervision of Kerzen in
1891 and 1892.
16. Maps under the title Map of Persia, prepared in Simla Drawing Department in 1897.Pejman.azadi 04:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PERSIAN GULF in Historical Maps 

message: I'd thank Wikipedia for publishing this article because it is very necessary to show the facts so I want to say that if Wikipedia want to save its chair and genuineness shoud take major consideration to insert the right facts with legal and approved documents, it is very obvious that Persian Gulf is a unique name and does not have any alternative name, and if in other language it is called to another name it is not international and should not insert in this article. we should not enter to the political games because Wikipedia is a encyclopedia not more!!! Thanks for your kind attention.Pejman.azadi 05:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia's Chair and the Persian Gulf's name 

message: Can someone please at leas tag the Etymology section as having a biased POV--or at least weasel words? —ScouterSig 18:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The artilce in general is disputed and we are discussing it now. At the moment, we are discussing about the most suitable intro. Later, we will discuss this section. Ralhazzaa 08:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No need to discussion because it is an obvoius fact that there is not any other alternative name and the Persian Gulf is unique name.Pejman.azadi 16:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The Persian Gulf's name is not Diputed in UN or EU countries, this is arabian gulf that is in disputed and it is located in the Red Sea.Pejman.azadi 09:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the name Arabian Gulf for the Red Sea is disputed in the sense that it's no longer called that! Debating that issue isn't going to help your cause Pejman. --Persan en Japon 02:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

text: The only proposal should be Persian Gulf because of many many documents that are shown here, so there is no need to insert other unuseful proposals. Why you want to say FAKE information???!!!Pejman.azadi 04:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I have a deal for you. The day you call the Persian Gulf as "Arabian Gulf", will be the day that Saudi Arabia along with every nation in the Middle-East, as well as Southern Russia, Northern Africa, and parts of Greece will be renamed "The Persian Empire", maybe that will jolt your memory a bit. Persianguyagain 08:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To the two users above: Your blatant Persianism doesn't help fix this dispute. Neither does your attack on what Arabs call the Gulf. Thinking that the name Arabian Gulf is fake is your opinion. Most Arabs use that term, so this fact has got to be accepted. --Persan en Japon 09:45, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology section 

message: Applications of the Name PERSIAN GULF by International Organizations
Organizations and affiliated foundations have applied the correct name of PERSIAN GULF
since they have been incorporated, excluding one case, which corrected it through Note No.
AD311/1GEN dated March 5, 1971. In confirmation and response to the correspondence of
the government of Iran for application of the complete name of PERSIAN GULF in the
publications and deeds of United Nations and affiliated organizations, 14 notes and
correspondences can be mentioned containing the aforementioned note of Secretariat of
United Nations, containing the amendment of Deed IPPD14/UNIDB.
From among the other instructions of United Nations, the following samples can be named:
· Note No. LA45.82 dated Aug. 10, 1984 (New York)
· Circular No. CAB/1/87/63 dated 16.02.1987 of Managing Director of UNESCO.
· ST/CSSER/29 dated Jan. 10, 1990.
· AD/311/1/GEN dated March 5, 1991.
· ST/CS/SER.A/29/Add.1 dated Jan. 24, 1992.
· ST/CS/SER.A/29/Add.2 dated Aug. 18, 1994.
· ST/CS/SER.A/29/Rev.1 dated May 14, 1999.
In all the abovementioned notes and circulars, it has been requested that the water body
existing at the south side of Iran be stated: PERSIAN GULF. The Specialized Group for
Experts on Standardization of Geographical Names, active in the United Nations Social
Economical Council also emphasizes the correct use of historical names for features, and is
active in dispute settlement related to geographical names. "Naphtali Cadman" the head of
Work Group for Toponymy Information has state d that the motivation to change the name of
PERSIAN GULF is purely political.Pejman.azadi 04:58, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The only proposal should be: PERSIAN GULF الخليج الفارسي: Applications of the Name PERSIAN GULF by International Organizations 

message: Coincidently, I found that a significant number of Iranian citizens are using different term for this sea in Farsi(Persian) language. They are using the term: خليج عربي instead of خليج فارس.
They are Iranian citizens indeed, and we know that the official language in Iran is only Farsi.
Here I am showing some samples of this usage mentioned in some well-established websites for some organiztions (recognized as member in the UNPO int'l organization). It is not personal one-man-managed blog-like websites as some others brought before.
Some samples:
*
*
*
*
I would like to suggest adding this name, خليج عربي, as another modern name in Farsi language according to WP rule of verifiability, citing, reliablity and describing realistic and common information. When it is still unclear and unsourced that the term الخليج الفارسي is a "modern" Arabic name as no such reference -significant group of real Arabs, or reliable resource accepted by WP- has been brought up. We just heard that it is "a" term in modern Arabic but as long as it is unsourced, I am asking to remove it or tag it with []. Ralhazzaa 00:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: DON NOT REWRITE THE HISTORY BY YOUR OWN IDEA: PERSIAN GULF IS PERSIAN GULF SUCH AS ANOTHER GEOGRAPHICAL POINTS IN OUR WORLD I'd say that the best thing in the world is to be honest and respect to the others, I am so sorry to say that some body here wants to publish false and fake information but you can not change the facts PERSIAN GULF WILL BE REMAINED PERSIAN GULG FOREVER الخليج الفارسي  and no one can not change it by such as these fake information.Pejman.azadi 05:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I always say that please respect to others but it seems Ralhazzaa wants to continue to insert fake information, this is very unpolitely act, why you are inserting these false information here???? more than 72 miloin Persian language speaker are using the term of Persian Gulf and even in Azerbayjan, Kazakistan, Tajikestan or Afghanistan are using this Persian Gulf's name, you see all the Iran's neighborhood countries are using Persian Gulf. So please be polite and don't attack to the other's says!!!! and DON'T delete the other's says!!!! It is obvouse that you want to force false information here, I several times mentioned you that we are here to respect to each other and help to improve the Wikipedia not to war!!!Pejman.azadi 06:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text:  Ralhazzaa, your proposal sounds like a case WP:POINT. --AlexanderPar 06:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, Ralhazza's links are from political websites: Arabistan.org/Alahwaz.com - If you go to the main page of Arabistan.org, it's all in Arabic. Also, in the Persian language, the ي in خليج عربي doesn't have the dot under it (the actual name for the dot escapes me now). The main page also proves that it's a political website as does the name of the website: Arabistan is the old name of Khuzestan province of Iran and not used or widely known in Iran. The opinions of these people on the above mentioned websites are valid, but that doesn't mean that they're the opinion of the majority of Iranian Arabs. As Ahwaz has mentioned before, some Arabs in Iran call the Persian Gulf as the Arabian Gulf. The people who run this website are some of these Arabs in Iran. They are making a political statement by using the term Arabian Gulf. That's not what is being debated here, and hence the name خليج عربي should not be in the lead because it's not the official name in Persian. --Persan en Japon 13:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another Farsi name 

message: Please be adviced that the term of Persian Gulf in arabic language is: Al-khalije-al-farsi الخليج الفارسي and it doesn't have any other name in arabic and all the Persian language speakers in this area are using this Persian Gulf's name, all the countries near this gulf or countries that are related in this area such as India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikestan are using the Persian Gulf's term.Pejman.azadi 06:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian Gulf in persian is: خليج فارس Khalij-e-fars and in arabic is Al-khalije-al-farsi الخليج الفارسي 

message: As a member of Wikipedia I am filled with wonder why Wikipedia is trying to insert false information on this issue???!!! Wikipedia is a encyclopedia so it should contain the right information and it shouldn't enter to the politics or other points of view games!!!! and if it continues to inserting false name instead of PERSIAN GULF it will lose its chair.
PERSIAN GULF does not have any other name in arabic language except the Persian Gulf,   because it is very very clear that the translation of the term of Persian in arabic language is not the term of arabian!!!!! so please STOP and respect to the International Laws.Pejman.azadi 08:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Pejman: Do you accept that Arabian Gulf is the official name in a number of Arab states? Do you accept that most Arabs use this name?--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 09:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: It is related to the article since it relates to the common names used in the region. Do you accept that Arabian Gulf is commonly used by Arabs in the Gulf region? And please spell my username properly, be polite.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 10:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I would like you to answer my question. Do you accept that Arabian Gulf is the most common name used in Arab states in the Gulf? Yes or no would suffice. Wikipedia does not respond to your or my demands but through process.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 10:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: No-one is arguing for the change in the name of the article. The issue is whether to include the local name of the Gulf. Please remember Wikipedia rules: "Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is."--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 10:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Pejamn.azadi: Please understand that most Arabs call the Persian Gulf as the Arabian Gulf in Arabic. I know you don't like this fact, but it is a fact. You can continue to deny this fact by repeating the same things again and again, but that changes nothing. You're disrupting the flow of this page with your constant verbose additions which are essentially the same things repeated ad nauseam. If you continue this, I shan't hesitate to report you to the administrators.--Persan en Japon 13:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Please stop this discission and correct the title with the PERSIAN GULF  

message: Please avoid staring new Level 2 Headlines (like this headline) for no apparent reason. It disrupts the flow of the talk page and is counterproductive. A lot of the previous headlines could have been a continuation of previous headlines' discussions. I shan't name names, but it's pretty obvious which users are doing this. Please stop as it doesn't at all help your argument. Thank you! --Persan en Japon 13:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NOTE TO TALK PAGE CONTRIBUTERS  

message: At least half the article is dedicated to the name.  The name!?  I try to imagine some grade school student searching Wikipedia for information on the Persian Gulf and discovering mostly a Wikipedia feud over the name.  How disappointed they must be.  I couldn't resist comparing it to the article got the Gulf of Mexico.  I realize that the Persian Gulf is probably most famous for the conflicts that the adjacent countries have fought within it, but must those conflicts extend to the very name used in Wikipedia to describe it?  Other than a category, the article doesn't explain that this a gulf of the Indian Ocean.  There's no oceanography.  Only scant mention of wildlife.  The Persian Gulf is rich with incredible history dating back millenia, yet there is absolutely no mention of epic history unless it is to justify the name.  This article should be a source of embarrassment to Wikipedia.  The Persian Gulf is the stuff of myths and legends, and it's been reduced to petty bicker over what it should be called.  I don't see how making sure your favorite name for the body of water is shown as the "true" name makes Wikipedia a better place.  If you care about this gulf, put the information about the GULF first.  --JJLatWiki 16:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Have a look to the very above proposal , No. 1 exactly, presented (actually, repeated) proposed previously by many users here and see how it is simple, informative, not presenting politicial games, abstract, and enough for a Name! Unfortunately, it has been rejected always (but not for the last request.. we are waiting a minute of good-thinking) due to things you may feel if you have a quick look on past talks. Politicalizing the article was "The Major" and "The Lonely" target of many users coming here. But recently we are only dealing with kind of better users and hope we approach a compromise sooner to throw this issue back and pay attention more to the sea's issue. Ralhazzaa 17:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Coming into a middle of a relatively constructive debate and shouting about how it is shameful to have this debate won't achieve anything. It is better to deal with this and settle this matter than allow a situation to continue for another year, with continual reprotection. And I am grateful that AlexanderPar and ObserverToSee are making a genuine effort to engage rather than edit war, putting forward suggestions for consensus. If you find it petty, then why say anything at all? Anyway, it looks like we are near a resolution, so there's little point in throwing in a grenade into a debate now.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 18:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry.  I was commenting more on the article than on the debate.  If I were to comment on the debate, I would have to say that the debate looks like an attempt to please everyone where no one will be pleased unless their homeland/language/historic POV is somehow honored in the first sentence.  All the while, the article is being ignore, neglected, and abused.  Why do people vigorously insist that the term, "Persian Gulf" be shown in other languages in the english language version of Wikipedia?  Why does the first sentence have to show every name for the gulf that regional nations and local inhabitants have for it?  I will guarantee that no compromise can please all the people who are in the debate now, and the debate will never end as long as such a compromise is the goal.  And in the end, all of you editors who have presumably studied the gulf and have all the great history of the gulf locked inside your heads will do nothing to help others who want to learn about the gulf.  I will try stay out of that debate because I really don't know much about the history of the name(s) by which it has been known.  I will hazard a guess that there is a name by which it best known in countries where english is the primary language.  If you are near an accepted compromise, I congratulate you and wish you all the best of luck in keeping it stable.  --JJLatWiki 18:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why do people vigorously insist that the term, "Persian Gulf" be shown in other languages in the english language version of Wikipedia? Because Wikipedia tends to put the local name beside the English name in the first sentence. The controversy is due to the fact that the Arabs and the Persians have different names for the Gulf. Persians regard the name Persian Gulf as a matter of their identity and that the name commonly used by Gulf Arabs - Arabian Gulf - is offensive and rooted in anti-Persian sentiments. Arabs see no reason why their common name for the Gulf - which is populated by Arabs both in the Arab states and in Iran - should be excluded. Sure, a compromise is about accepting that you cannot get everything you want, but I think most people engaged in this debate have accepted that to settle the matter will require compromise. If we don't get this right now, it may go all the way to the Arbitration Committee with sanctions imposed on editors deemed disruptive. Whether you like it or not, there is an editorial disagreement here and it should be solved. Once a compromise is reached, the article will be unlocked and you are welcome to add in details relating to natural history, etc.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 19:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

text: That might be a good idea, but it has not been suggested and I am unsure whether this would be in keeping with Wikipedia style.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 22:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're right that it wasn't my suggestion, but I'll make it now.  And I think it would be in keeping with the intention of Wikipedia.  I've seen it before where particularly contentious material is removed from an article while it's debated for the sake of the article.  It might be easier to move on by simply letting it go.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Persian Gulf known as such for its connection to Persia?  And isn't it the case that Persia no longer exists?  So modern-day Persians shouldn't feel that the name exhaults them as a people, but is merely one name for a body of water that happens to be derived from the same name from which their ancestry came.  Isn't it also the case that the Persian Gulf is practically universally recognized as mostly international waters and isn't the property of the Persian people?  So, to formalize the suggestion:  If a compromise consensus can not be reached by 1AM GMT of June 18, agree to remove the most controversial material from the main article so that it can be unblocked and other areas of the article worked on, WHILE the debate over the controversy continues. --JJLatWiki 00:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you will find it hard to argue that because Reza Pahlavi changed the name of Persia to Iran, the name Persian Gulf is now irrelevant. As for international waters, there is the Indian Ocean whose shores include much more than India - it would be problemmatic if Wikipedia were to also call it the Somali Ocean or the Pakistani Ocean. Let's keep the debate within the rules of Wikipedia. It is accepted that Persian Gulf is the most common name in English and this should be the title of the article. The dispute is simply over the Arabic name for the Gulf, which Persians find unacceptable. There is acceptance here of the Arabic name in the lead paragraph, but a rejection of the translation of the Arabic name into English. Consequently, it is agreed by two editors from each side of the debate that this translation be moved to the footnotes (it remains to be seen whether others will agree to this). There is also the question of wording of the footnotes, but I think this is less contentious.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 01:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello all friends specially ahvaz!!!!, I'd say that ahvaz is trying to say something in support with false information. I appreciate your trying but at first you should insert right information!!!! the PERSIAN GULF's name dosen't depend on Reza Pahlavi or other personns because this name has its own legal validity during the history and legal international documents for example in the UN and I strongly ask you please SAY YOUR HAVE WITH LOGICAL DOCUMENTS NOT PAN-ARABISM, I appreciate that if you do it. PERSIAN GULF is an INTERNATIONAL NAME AND DOESN'T HAVE ANY OTHER ALTERNATIVE NAMES EVEN IN ARABIC, so if any other false name is using in arabic language it is cause to pan-arabism and it is not international name so it shoudn't come in this article. I have a good example here for you my dear friend, for example Caspan sea in Persian language is called Daryaye khazar or Bahre Ghazvin in arabic, but it is not its international name and it is called internationally as the Caspian sea, so the Persian Gulf should be named Persian Gulf in international community and it doesn't depend on any other persons like Reza Pahlavi or anyone else, I'm really really filled with wonder what you said on this regard!!, please remember that we are friends and we want to show the facts and improve the Wikipedia so I appreciate your kind attention on this regard. Pejman.azadi 05:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Here we go again! Pejaman: If you read what Ahwaz wrote carefully, you'd realize that he merely stated that Reza Shah changed the name of the nation from Persia to Iran in English (to match the nation's Persian name). You also need to stop saying that the Gulf has no alternative names even in Arabic - It does! Why can't you just accept this fact? Almost everyone here has! --Persan en Japon 16:13, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I'm really filled with wonder about your logic!!! you are saying a subject that doesn't have any relate with this article, we are speaking about PERSIAN GULF's NAME there is no any relate on this subject, because PERSIA and IRAN are names of a country and both of them are names of IRAN country, so what do you want to say??? Reza shah change this name to Iran or what else...so what?!!!! both of them are used and are equal meaning and equal definition and there is no need to mentioned that we could't see any logicical documantation in your says! PERSIAN GULF doesn't have any alternative name even in arabic because if it had it is because of pan-arabism and it is not an international name. Please Stop and don't open a digressive chapter here!!!! it seems you want to avert the article and it is not useful!!! PERSIAN GULF IS PERSIAN GULF AND WILL BE REMAINED ONLY PERSIAN GULF FOREVER Pejman.azadi 05:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean you wonder about my logic? Reza Shah did change the name of the country from Persia to Iran, didn't he? That's what Ahwaz said. He even said that even though Reza Shah changed the name of the country from Persia to Iran, it's hard to argue "the name Persian Gulf is now irrelevant". I'm also aware that Iran and Persia are interchangeable, since Mohammad Reza Pahlavi decreed that both names can be used to describe Iran. The current Islamic Republic also agrees with this - Just look at the Iranian Government's BETA Tourist Website. Also, please don't assume that I'm not familiar with Iranian history and culture or I'm trying to avert the focus of the article. In fact, you're the one who keeps misfocusing the argument by stating that the name "Arabian Gulf" doesn't exist! If Arabs use it, then it does exist, regardless of how it came to be used. -- Persan en Japon 15:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I'd like to say that Persian Gulf's name is not related to the change of Persia to Iran name, however both of them have equal meaning. It seems that you want to open a diversionary issue here, but please be informed that this is not helpful to improve the Wikipedia. If I said that Persian Gulf doesn't have any alternative name even in arabic it is due to if it had, it is because of pan-arabism and it is not international name and should be removed immediately from of this article because we are here to publish the facts and true information not to insert the information which is created by bigotry . Persian Gulf is only Persian Gulf because of several legal approved documents in the UN and other International organization and I repeat my say that arabian gulf does not exist in this water area. It is very claer and arab people are using the wrong and false term instead of original name because of pan-arabism which is started from jamal abdol naser time, it is better for arabs to try to save arabian lands in Palestine and they should help to their muslim brothers not to change the geographical names, it is due to lake of logic if not why you are trying to insrt false and wrong information here???? PERSIAN GULF IS PERSIAN GULF AND WILL BE REMAINED PERSIAN GULF FOREVER. Please be adviced that Persian Gulf belong to the history and all the nation and it should be respected and all arabs should proud to live beside of this honorable sea side because of its long proud history. it is not just a name it is a International Name. Please remember that Persian Gulf belongs to the all arabs and Persian and don't to try to avert the article and start a fanaticism war because this article is not related to the to fanaticism. This name is an International Name I have a good exapmle for you on this issue, you can not change the Indian ocean name because it is an International name so you are only wasting your time so please be adviced that PERSIAN GULF DOES NOT HAVE ANY ALTERNATIVE NAME. Thank you again for taking the time to read this issue. Pejman.azadi 06:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I give-up! You obviously either don't read everything I wrote, or don't understand anything that I wrote. I suspect the latter! --Persan en Japon 14:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The NAME is most important? 

message: OK, so here is my new proposal, taking into consideration everybody's suggestions:
:The Persian Gulf (Persian: خليج فارس - Khalīj-e Fārs; In Arabic: الخليج العربي‎ al-Khalīj al-Arabi (translation: Arabian Gulf) [footnote], also sometimes referred to as The Gulf in a controversial attempt to stay neutral), in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Arabian Sea located between Iran (Persia) and the Arabian Peninsula.
::[footnote] With a few minor exceptions, the name Persian Gulf has and continues to be the most readily recognized name for this body of water since antiquity. The term al-Khalīj al-Arabi (Arabian Gulf) was popularised by pan-Arabist leaders from the 1960s and is the official name in some Arabs states in the region, but is not the internationally recognised name for the waterbody and remains highly controversial. See: Persian Gulf naming dispute
I have tried to remain neutral. What do you think? -- Persan en Japon 03:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note for AlexanderPar and some others: I didn't like the offensive way of ALexanderPar of personalizing the talk!! Hold on boy!! Don't reply whatever other user suggest as: NOOO THIS IS WHAT Ralhazzaa PROPOSED!! It makes you looks disarrayed and over-tensed in other's eyes. Nothing personal between me and you... Frankly talking, it is not interesting for me to talk with you anyway. Ralhazzaa 05:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems like you have changed your mind. You were willing to mention the translation of the Arabic name, now you don't want it at all.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 14:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Perhaps" is a consideration not a decision.  Seeing how a "compromise" here does not seem to be reachable, I think we should all consider removing all sources of contention from this article and move forward with improving it as suggested in the section above.  Even though it's not totally within wikipedia "style", removing all references to non English language names will remove the objectionable items since no one is contesting the proper name in English of the "Persian Gulf". ObserverToSee 14:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you suggesting that neither the Farsi nor the Arabic names be mentioned at all in the article?--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 15:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At this point, yes, remove all non English names and texts from the lead of this article and only reference the non contested name of "Persian Gulf" in English.  Let the argument move to the respective language sites. Start really improving this article with all of the rich information that is really relevant. ObserverToSee 15:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

text: How good and comfortable to reach a compromise for this article... but now I start to believe that some users like ObserverToSee and AlexanderPar are coming here only to reject for the sake of rejection and keeping this place as a black hole of hateness and destroying the soul of WP. What you can't see in this compromise that other users gave a big concession by letting that offensive and unlogical footnote to stay with the name الخليج العربي Arabian Gulf, that is widely used (just google for it to see how it is widely used!) while you still want to remove it and insist to insert unresourced name, that is against WP rules. Think twice and try not to over cramp... only try to understand the spirit of WP and "what is" a compromise! Ralhazzaa 14:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest we keep this impersonal as you mention above.  It seems that the only one interested in personalizing the discussion is non other than you! I implore you once again to read and absorb Compromise and also Assume_good_faith ObserverToSee 14:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of the above users are quite intolerable: Putting words into my mouth? I never said that "I've given up" on this topic. I was referring to another users constant drivel. As for my compromise, I included a neutral point of view incorporating both sides of the debate. I specifically stated that the name is controversial. I even mentioned that the term The Gulf is politically motivated. Furthermore, the footnote states that the name Persian Gulf has been the most recognized body since antiquity and continues to be so today! I'm trying to stop this deadlock... What do you people propose? -- Persan en Japon 15:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest to consider what JJLatWiki proposed before, to keep just one name in the intro, and remove all writtin in Farsi and Arabic. This will push it ahead and later in the Etymology section we can expand it as it is fitting there more than the intro. As long as Iranians want to insert a name refused by Arabs, and Arabs want to mention a name refused by Iranians, it is a clear dead-end. So, better to remove it all (there are interwiki links for these languages, right?). Ralhazzaa 08:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Now we are getting somewhere. That's some pretty good idea Ralhazzaa. AlexanderPar 10:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Proposal (version x) 

message: How about only the literal translations of "Persian Gulf" in the first sentence, and the next sentence an acknowledgement that some regional states recognize the gulf as the "Arabian Gulf".
The Persian Gulf (Persian: خليج فارس - Khalīj-e Fārs; In Arabic: _____ _____ al-Khalīj Arabic word for Persian) in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Arabian Sea located between Iran and the Arabian Peninsula.  In some regional states, the gulf is also recognized as the "Arabian Gulf"Some appropriate citation to attest that at least 2 regional countries refer to the gulf as Arabian Gulf.
No explanation of the controversy to enflame anyone.  I think it respects the fact that regional naming can differ from the larger internationally recognized name, but does not involve itself in a naming controversy.  --JJLatWiki 15:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  JJLatWiki Proposal #1 

message: -- Start --
The Persian Gulf, in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Gulf of Oman located between Iran (Persia) and the Arabian Peninsula.
The Persian Gulf was the focus of the Iraq-Iran War that lasted from 1980 to 1988, with each side attacking the other's oil tankers. In 1991, the Persian Gulf again was the background for what was called the "Persian Gulf War" or "The Gulf War" when Iraq invaded Kuwait and was subsequently pushed back, despite the fact that this conflict was primarily a land conflict.
The natural environment of the Persian Gulf is very rich with good fishing grounds, extensive coral reefs, and abundant pearl oysters, but its ecology has become increasingly under pressure from the heavy industrialisation and in particular the repeated major petroleum spillages associated with recent wars fought in the region.
-- End ---
:This is the exact text that exists in the current version of the article that is locked minus the extra languages and names.  Hopefully we can put this one in place and start making real improvements to the article.  ObserverToSee 14:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Support: I do however want to clarify that the Persian Gulf isn't geographically marked as an extension of the Gulf of Oman, but an extension/arm of (either) the Arabian Sea or the Indian Ocean . Can we also re-word the intro? The current wording sounds awkward!  --Persan en Japon 12:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hopefully Final Proposal for the Lead section

message: There should be more details regarding the name Gulf of Basra as it is a hitorical name that started very early in the Islamic history, and remains in use until today. --87.109.233.150 17:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it has been called Gulf of Basra in any period of the history. Ammar (Talk - Don't Talk) 18:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yes, it was since Umar build the city of Basra. There are so many documents to prove that. The name remain official in Iraq until 1958 when it was replaced with "Arabian Gulf" but it is still official in Turky.
But the proper name is Persian Gulf. The Honorable Kermanshahi 09:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gulf of Basra

message: MAPS (Part 1):
   
Published in "The Times" (London) in 1913. The map is significant in that the Brits at that time published Persian Gulf. 
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/images/sundaytimesMap.jpg
Pejman.azadi 05:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The approved Proposal (Part 1): Persian Gulf and Persian Sea  

message: After reading the endless discussions on this talk page, I am trying a compromise proposed by JJLatWiki, which User:Ralhazzaa, User:AlexanderPar, User:Persan en Japon , and others agreed to while the article was locked. I would like to see this dispute settled, so in the meantime please don't blindly revert my changes or change the intro to avoid getting the article locked again. PashaGol 05:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! It seems like a fair compromise! --Persan en Japon 18:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Compromise 

message: Dear Friends, I'd say that due to the fact, Persian Gulf was a peaceful place and we should try to keep it as a place for friendship place between all neighborhood countries. In conclussion I'd appreciate all the friends discussing on this regard. Pejman.azadi 11:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Persian Gulf as an International name is a place for the peace and friendship! 

message: The article states that the average depth of the Persian Gulf is 50m. The website
gives the time-averaged volume and surface area of the Gulf, and by dividing the volume by the area finds an average depth of 36m. Is the 50m figure wrong, or calculated in some other way? Whatever the figure, the method of averaging should be stated to avoid ambiguity - AG, Stockport, UK.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.179.96.137 (talk) 00:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Depth 

message: well BenB4  thinks that this article does not belong to the high prority for wikiproject Iran while it does for Arabs. I do not think that he is in a osition to decide on wikiproject Iran editors. Ok for this matter the WP Iran editors decide on the priority of this article. I think it shoulf be rated as 'High' do you agree? --Babakexorramdin 00:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  BenB4  and top priority