Talk:Expressionist architecture/Archive 1

message: Cut and paste as some source from Archpedia:-
Expressionism was a style in the Western arts which straddled the latter half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th. Until the 19th century, the arts had been principally concerned with the depiction of reality, and artists used emotion--their own or their subject's--as one component of expression and not its guarantor. Expressionist art, by contrast, dealt directly with the transmission of emotion. It was subjective and incoherent rather than objective and precise. The urge towards the overt expression of feeling began with the Romantic movement at the end of the 18th century, but true expressionism was only liberated a century later, when Freud's work made complexes, neuroses and private obsessions acceptable subjects for polite study and for the arts.
In architecture, expressionism was identified with the works of architects in Germany, Holland and Scandinavia from the end of World War I until the 1920s. The expressionist buildings are characterized by unusual angular or organic forms and internal volumes, to some extent made possible by the imaginative use of reinforced concrete. The historian Pevsner saw the style as a deviation from the development of the Modernist movement, working under the influence of Art Nouveau in the political crisis following World War I. The prewar work most closely identified with expressionism is probably that of Peter Behrens (1868 - 1940), particularly his factories for A.E.G. in Berlin (1908-1913), and certainly the postwar work of Bauhaus, during the Weimar period, is felt to have absorbed the principal features of expressionism, visually the stark expressive simplicity and theoretically a sense of architecture's ethical obligation, as a tool for raising social standards. The best-known examples of postwar expressionist architecture are the Chilehaus in Hamburg of 1923, the work of , Fritz Hoeger (1877 - 1949) and the interior of the Grosses Schauspielhaus in Berlin of 1919 by , Hans Poelzig (1869 - 1936). Perhaps one of the most striking of all buildings in the expressionist idiom was an early work of , Erich Mendelson (1887 - 1953), the 'Einstenurm', an observatory tower, built at Potsdam in 1920, an organic form with a motif of streamlining which was to become so important in Western industrial design.
--Mcginnly 12:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Archpedia

message: * We're gonna need to research The Der Sturm group. Taut was a founding member - also a magazine.
* The First world war had a bearing on all the early C20 movements - idealism etc.
* Exploring RConc and glass as relatively new material.
* Glass eulogising poetry of Paul Scheerbart
* Utopianism, Fantasy architecture, Futurism, Eclecticism
* Bold use of colour in contrast to International style (architecture)
* Sensuality vs functionality
* Brief article stubs on Grosses Schauspielhaus, Glashaus, Chilehaus
:*Some comments: First, should we merge what we have on Grosses Schauspielhaus back here into expressionist architecture, and reduce G.S. to a oneline stub? I retract this, I think we should keep this as is, and write here how it relates to expressionist architecture. DVD+ R/W 23:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Thoughts for inclusion

message: Could we include some earlier dates in the 19th century, to list something about Nietzsche. He is definately an influence on expressionism, and should be in the timeline and also in the text. Kafka should also be mentioned, he corresponds with the timeline as is, I'll add some entries. DVD+ R/W 20:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Timeline

message: Is Freedom Tower considered to be expressionist?  I've seen it referred to that way before.
: Perhaps it would be fair to say there are expressionist elements to the design as a way of going part way with the statement? -- M0llusk 04:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freedom Tower? 

message: A proposed change. It looks, to me, like there too many headings in this article. The content box leaves a long blank space adjacent to it, and it, itself seems too long. We need to try and prune a bit of the headings and consolidate, so it flows better from lead to body paragraphs. The timeline is a major contributor in this. It takes up 27 lines. I suggest we reduce it somehow, so that the content box is at least half the size it is now. Any thoughts?  DVD+ R/W 22:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made changes to this effect, for your consideration and approval. DVD+ R/W 01:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My book from amazon has finally arrived so I'll get some writing done this weekend. I'm fine with the changes to the timeline. I'd actually only made each year into headings to make it easier to edit - the intention was to completely remove them at the end, but I like the way you've done it. I did want to keep the distinction between the German expressionist movement and the amsterdam school, the german movement seems quite complex and needs to be examined in isolation first before discussion of parallel movements and legacies. --Mcginnly 10:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so sure I like making the article too nationalistic, and making the article too much about Germany, and dividing it by country rather than content. I think we can mention Germany as needed but shouldn't make the headlines about any Country. I also think we should re consider adding Antoni Gaudí, he was well published at the time, Taut was certainly aware of his work and Finsterlin was friends with him.-Pehnt p. 59. Much of expressionist content is also evident with contemporaries Charles Rennie Mackintosh and Frank Lloyd Wright. -Pehnt p.8. DVD+ R/W 21:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm afraid, (unusually) I have to disagree here. It's not a matter of making the article nationalistic, the point is that I'd like the article to first deal with the particular movements of big E expressionism and then deal with expressionist architecture (really architecture with more obvious emotional content than classic modernism). From what I've been reading, German expressionism arose out of a particularly germanic (and complex) melting pot of ideas and reactions to very diverse political, social and economic circumstances, particularly pertinent to german/austria/poland, whereas the amsterdam school, whilst sharing some of the influences, should be treated in a different way, because it's motivations and causes differed. Another important aspect of the germanic school are several sources that cite links between some of the activities and thinking behind german expressionism and the later nazi propaganda, which we'll need to address. Both schools however were a divergence, and seeking something different from art nouveau and the vienna secession and play complex roles in their influence on international style modernism, art deco and later styles. These are obviously moot points but we need some boundaries to frame the article. I think Gaudi should be considered as primarily an eclectic Art Nouveau practitioner who we should cite as contributing influence and FLW is a direct influence on the Amsterdam school through his 1900's portfolio and tour. Otherwise I worry that we risk writing a complete history of early 20th century european architecture in the one article.--Mcginnly 00:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Contents / headings

message: Crossposted from user talk pages
He DVD, I notice we've both revived editing the Expressionist architecture article, prior to it's impending GA review. I've archived the talk BTW, because most of it was used as a scratch sheet for translations etc. - hope that's ok. I'd like some discussion about the article though if you wouldn't mind, because there's still a few fundamental things that I think we disagreed on at the time and I'd like to us reach some sort of agreement on. I've started a thread at Talk:Expressionist architecture#Taking stock. Cheers --Mcginnly | Natter 16:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Crosspost

message: I've done some digging and I think I've found the root of the problem:-
"Expressionism - a widely applicable term used since 1910 of al the arts in three main senses. (paraphrasing now)
:Type 1. A certain type of expressive emphasis found in all the arts, throughout history across the globe - examples are cited such as Dostoevsky, Strindberg, El Greco, Van Gogh.
:Type 2. All the modern movement in Germany and Austro Hungary between 1910 and 1924 which flavoured the local variants of Fauvism, Cubism and Futurism and formed the basis of both Dada and Neue Sachlichkeit. It was later extended backwards to Munch and the early works of Die Brücke. The term entered Germany through France in 1910. It's trademarks were distortion, fragmentation and the communication of violent or overstressed emotion. Pacifist and socialist political agenda etc.etc.
:Type 3.Any 20th century work of art in other countries or continents which reflect the influence of German expressionism. eg Laethem-Saint-Martin, some of the Ecole de Paris and abstract expressionism."
So firstly, with reference to the above citations:-
#Shannon Ricketts - appears to be confusing and merging type 1 expressionism with type 2. See Frampton p66 "Seen in retrospect, the Casa Mila seems to anticipate something of the ethos of the Expressionism that was soon to emerge in Central Europe." 
#Faia Wertheimer - type 1 expressionism
#Ernest E. Burden - type 2 expressionism extended backwards to include the work of Gaudi.
I'm keen to rewrite the lead to include these 3 distinctions. 
Curl elaborates further "Artistic movement in Northern Europe, especially in Germany and the Netherlands from c1905 to 1930, it was concerned in architecture not to emphasise function but to create free and powerful sculptural forms, often crystalline, sometimes sharply angular, and occasionally stalactitic." He then cites examples in the netherlands and denmark (Jensen Klint as above) and then says "In Germany, however there were several outstanding article......"
I think the article needs to be structured with a chronology that reflects the growth of the umbrella term "Expressionism" and can't really shy away from it's northern european roots - we can then deal with "later scholars broadened the term to include both works of architecture before 1910 and works outside of northern europe such as Gaudi.
Regards. --Mcginnly | Natter 22:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've tweaked the lead quite a bit to reflect some of this. What do you think?--Mcginnly | Natter 02:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm confused, carry on though.  DVD+ R/W 02:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which bit is causing the headache? --Mcginnly | Natter 02:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A RL headache. Like I said though, please carry on.  DVD+ R/W 02:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A suggestion

message: James M Richards, Nikolaus Pevsner, Dennis Sharp. The Anti-Rationalists and the Rationalists. Architectural Press. Published 2000. 
p.75
(Casa Vicens)"The Gaudi building contains the germ of all the later Expressionist developments..."
*here's another, one more in a sec.  DVD+ R/W 02:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Gaudi and expressionism 

message: DVD asked me to weigh in on this. Two first impressions:
* I think we should say very early that the term refers originally to a time-bound European movement but also more loosely to earlier and later works related to that movement by influence or even merely by resemblance, beginning at least as early as Gaudí and continuing at least as far as Frank Gehry, the latter of whom is currently not mentioned at all.
* The list of ten characteristics of expressionist architecture might be strengthened by mentioning for each characteristic an aspect of a specific building or structure that exemplifies it.
- Jmabel | Talk 17:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Jmabel - we need some wider opinions like this. I attempted some of what you suggest in the lead (I've yet to include it in the body text until we've resolved the structure) - I'm scratching out an alternative structure for discussion at Expressionist architecture/Structure redesign sandbox. --Mcginnly | Natter 18:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another county heard from 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Vorgeschichte feininger.jpg

message: Expressionist architecture: Casa Milà by Antoni Gaudi or National Museum by Douglas Cardinal? A question of taste.
In Europe Antoni Gaudi is seen as the father of Expressionist architecture (Erich Mendelsohn, Piet Kramer, ...). Leuk2 (talk) 12:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Gaudi and expressionism (II) 

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