Talk:Domesday Book

message: I think we may want a disambiguation from "Doomsday book" rather than a simple redirect -- I can think of at least two books with that title, one a ca. 1970s popular science eco-doom polemic (by Gordon Rattray Taylor, I think), and a ca. 1991 award-winning science fiction novel (by Connie Willis?) Malcolm Farmer
:the idiot who made it the 'Domesday Book' has been dead many centuries.--hamstar 16:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Is it "the" Doomsday Book, or just Doomsday Book. Magna Carta has the same issue, the use of "the" is not used (see Discussion). I have seen it in history books without the "the". For example:
:By the time of Domesday Book the county network was almost complete..
Comments or ideas? Stbalbach 06:21, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, I've always heard it called The Doomsday Book, and the references without "the" seem very strange to me. TheMadBaron 01:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree. Anyone want to be bold and add some thes? 218.102.71.167 02:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't advise it. It is always written without the definite article. It may look odd, but it's the case. If you've "always heard it called The Doomsday Book" then you've always heard it wrong. And spelt it wrong, incidentally. -- Necrothesp 12:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Anyone concerned about the lack of "thes" should have a look at the National Archives site, referenced in the article. Not a "the" in sight. Bluewave 15:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the standard usage by those 'in the know' is without the definite article, so it's right that that's how it should be written here. However, almost everywhere else in Wikipedia except in this entry it's written with a 'the'. It's way beyond my capability, but is it possible for some kind of auto-correction bot to be created that would remove all the uses of 'the' that appear in front of 'Domesday Book' elsewhere? Russ London 09:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Domesday scholarship largely started in the 19th century with Maitland and Vinogradoff. F W Maitland (1897) Domesday Book and Beyond remains one of the seminal works. These guys started using Domesday Book with the 'The' but I can find no reference to why in their work. Now it's a matter of Domesday 'snobbery' that you don't use 'The' because that shows you up as a non-Domesdayer. I think the absence of the definite article for medieval texts goes back to the original medieval references where the article is normally unused, reason for this being the original references and documents are in Latin and in Latin there is no article. Every work on the subject I've seen omits 'The'. (Patrick Molineux, 14/02/2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pmoline3 (talk • contribs) 10:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Readers should sense that "snobbery" might be beside the point.  By a similar attitude someone else who knew nothing might be babbling about "The" Magna Carta, by missing Pmoline3's single operative sentence, "Every work on the subject I've seen omits 'The'." Resisting any particular conventional usage, though, will predictably mark one out as an Original among one's peers. --Wetman 10:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps the answer on this is to note in the article that historiographical convention is not to use the article. For those readers interested in the absence of the article this at least alerts them to that convention. However, I don't know how to provide a reference to that convention other than a list of all major academic works on Domesday using the convention! Pmoline3 11:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "The" 

message: Bill Bryson in The Mother Tongue claims that domesday was taken from the same root as domestic and is unrelated to the modern meaning of doomsday.  I haven't checked this independent of his book, so haven't corrected the first paragraph. -- rra@stanford.edu, 2004-07-20
--------------
Bill Bryson was wrong about many, many etymological examples he gave in _The Mother Tongue_.  I would not take anything he says at face value.  172.162.242.76 03:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have serious doubts about this. Old English dom did not refer to the Last judgement in particular, but it meant simply "judgement". Thus, a domesday would simply be the day on which human judges were in session, unrelated to ideas of eschatology. 130.60.142.65 11:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That might be a literal view, but how would "domesday" have been understood idiomatically? The book is named by allusion to the day of Final Judgement --Dannyno 13:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

text: And, according to the OED, "Domestic" comes from the Latin root "domus", meaning house. "Doom", which is the true root of "Domesday", is an Old English word of Germanic origin meaning "statute, judgement".  Since The Domesday book isn't just about houses, this makes sense. Remember that "Domesday Book" is actually a 12th century name for William the Conqueror's survey, not what it was originally called.  The word domestic is first attested by the OED in 1521. So it doesn't work eymologically either. --Dannyno 13:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: I removed the wikisource notice because it distracts from the article. --Stbalbach 05:07, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  wikisource template 

message: Out of curiosity, why does the word "prince-bishop" in the section "Domesday Book" link to Bishop of Durham rather than to prince-bishop? --Kuaichik 00:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest it links there because the subject of the link is a Bishop of Durham (the Bishops of Durham were Prince Bishops).DuncanHill 17:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prince-Bishop Link?? 

message: Could someone please add the pronounciation as an ogg vorbis file... I think its necessary to get that clear for people reading the article. 83.67.79.40 14:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronounciation 

message: Browsing around Wikipedia's English settlement articles, it seems that a few mention references in Domesday but many don't. Has anyone thought of creating some sort of standard Domesday infobox entry and adding lots more? I believe there are online databases of Domesday entries, could they be linked somehow? Grateful for info on this from people more knowledgeable - obviously I suppose we could start going through adding loads, but maybe there's a better way to do it? CreativeLogic 17:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would a category "Settlements mentioned in Domesday" be helpful? Bluewave 17:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds great. Nice name too. Is there a way to simplify creating such a category, for example, can you do it en-masse somehow? CreativeLogic 18:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Settlements mentioned in Domesday in Wikipedia 

message: as the domesday book is a survey of land, i think it would be beneficial to view it as well as relate to it as such, that is in terms of the cadastre,and land administration/management161.76.194.32 01:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  a surveyors' perspective 

message: Has anybody considered protecting this page? Looks like it's constantly subject to vandalism. --Kuaichik 06:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protection? 

message: "William needed information about the country he had just conquered so he could administer it."
I may have my history wrong, but didn't he conquer England in 1066?  Why would he need a census 20 years later in order to "administer" it?  My bet is it was tied somehow to increasing taxes.  And it seems "just conquered" ignores that 20-year gap also, but I don't want to change it because I don't know why he really ordered it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.139.9 (talk) 01:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to David Roffe's analysis, the order in which the Domesday text was written (q.v. http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/216) was: LDB, then circuits VI, III, I, II, V, IV, in that order. It's a curious thing, but this is the exact order in which they were of interest to Count Alan Rufus, whose name is prominent in most of the satellite texts.  Professor Roffe thinks that Alan may have been a Commissioner on the south-west survey that produced Liber Exoniensis. Certainly, he was in the south-west during the year, even though he had no lands there. Alan was the Conqueror's cousin, the commander of his household knights, and, according to his epitaph, "praefecto legum", a senior officer (it can be read as "professor") of the law. Moreover, William de St-Calais and Archbishop Thomas of York (brother of Samson, later Bishop of Worcester), were tenants of Alan's in Yorkshire and frequent associates of his: Thomas led loyalist troops during the rebellion of 1088 as did Alan, and Alan was both chief arresting officer, the chief signatory of St-Calais's controversial safe-conduct document, and the only known defender of St-Calais at the latter's treason trial (Alan is recorded as using very precise legalese, in a "calm, clear voice" over the clamour, to shore up St-Calais's heavily disputed case); it was Alan who escorted St-Calais everywhere he was permitted to travel, including to Southampton where the disgraced bishop took ship to exile in Normandy. Alan was also with the royal army on 27 January 1091 at Dover just days before they set sail to invade Normandy; St-Calais was retrieved and restored to all his titles and privileges as Prince-Bishop of Durham. Zoetropo (talk) 03:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  William's motivation for ordering it? 

message: According to the article, "The name Domesday comes from the Old English word dom (of which the Modern English doom is descended), meaning accounting or reckoning. Thus domesday, or doomsday, is literally a day of reckoning, meaning that a lord takes account of what is owed by his subjects.". No source is provided, and I can't find any source which backs it up. When I look for the meaning of the Book's name, this is what I find:
* "The grand and comprehensive scale on which the Domesday survey took place, and the irreversible nature of the information collected led people to compare it to the Last Judgement, or 'Doomsday', described in the Bible, when the deeds of Christians written in the Book of Life were to be placed before God for judgement. This name was not adopted until the late 12th Century." (Official website of the Domesday Book)
* "The nickname ‘Domesday’ may refer to the Biblical Day of Judgement, or ‘doomsday’ when Christ will return to judge the living and the dead. Just as there will be no appeal on that day against his decisions, so Domesday Book has the final word – there is no appeal beyond it as evidence of legal title to land. For many centuries Domesday was regarded as the authoritative register regarding rightful possession and was used mainly for that purpose. It was called Domesday by 1180. Before that it was known as the Winchester Roll or King’s Roll, and sometimes as the Book of the Treasury." (National Archives, UK government website)
* "Henry II's treasurer, Richard Fitz Nigel, wrote of Domesday, "This book is metaphorically called by the native English, Domesdai, the Day of Judgement. For as the sentence of that strict and terrible last account cannot be evaded by any subterfuge, so when this book is appealed to on those matters which it contains, its sentence cannot be quashed or set aside with impunity."" (History Magazine)
Before overwriting that sentence in this Wikipedia article, to replace it with sourced information, I thought it best to see whether anyone has a source confirming what the article currently says. Aridd (talk) 15:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Having a quick look at my Shorter Oxford Dictionary, it says that "Domesday" (as in the book) is a variant of "doomsday". Doomsday (meaning the day of judgement) is, in turn made up from the genitive of "doom" + day. "Doom" does indeed come from the Old English "dom", but the base meaning of that word was apparently "to place" or "to set". Doom, itself, has 10 meanings: a statute, a judicial decision, the process of judging, justice, the right to judge, the Last Judgement, a personal opinion or judgement, the faculty of judging, destiny, or the fated ending of someone's life. I'm not sure that the article or any of the sources that you mention are "wrong", except perhaps that doomsday doesn't so much mean A day of reckoning as THE day of reckoning. Perhaps the article could be a bit clearer. Bluewave (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the uncited-since-forever etymology from the article.  The implication was clearly that the name "Domesday Book" would not have had the same Biblical connotations when the book was named as it does now.  But the only citations given here suggest that it would have had those connotations. --Allen (talk) 01:13, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of the name 

message: In the "six circuits" near the start of the article Huntingtonshire appears in two, which seems unlikely and Lancashire is missing!
Kevin D Jackson  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.246.48.130 (talk) 10:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So are missing Westmoreland (like Lancs, not founded before the later part of the 12th century) and Cumberland (disputed land or Scottish). They have a very good reason of not being on the list. Snapdragonfly (talk) 04:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Six circuits 

message: Sorry Herefordshire is in twice not Huntingtonshire.
K  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.246.48.130 (talk) 10:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Six Countie 

message: The final paragraph in section four (subsequent history) is an important point to make about the current context of the Work. Unfortunately, it is cumbersome to read and could be difficult for 'the average reader' to understand. Does anyone object to me or someone else having a go at simplifying the sentence? Andmark (talk) 05:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section 4 Clean up 

message: The first paragraph appears to end in a quote, but I don't see where the quote begins, nor any attribution (other than a reference to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which doesn't seem to be relevant).
Westley Turner (talk) 00:37, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing quote mark? 

message: A new category :Category:Places listed in the Domesday Book has recently been created.  A series of subcategories has been created splitting the places into present-day counties.  Most of the categories are not yet well populated, but clearly have the potential to grow.
My question is:  should the places be categorised by the counties as they appear in the Domesday Book, or by present-day counties?  There are arguments both ways.  If you wanted to know what had happened to the places listed in the book, you would probably want to browse by Domesday Book county (as in 1086).  If you wanted to know which places in a present-day county were in the book, you would want to browse by present-day county.  This particularly affects London and the metropolitan counties, but also Cheshire, Berkshire and other counties.  It would be better to decide before the categories are more populated and more subcategories added.
Any views? --Mhockey (talk) 19:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Categorising by the "Domesday counties" is problematic because the counties of the 12-19th century were not already formed in 1086 (Lancashire for example was formed much later). There is also some dispute about how the returns were organised for northern England, whether it was organised for administrative convenience or followed actual boundaries. MRSC (talk) 12:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

text: There have been many county boundary changes over the centuries. For instance Halesowen has been at various times in Shropshire, Worcestershire, and (currently) West Midlands. I feel the best way to deal with these ambiguities is by a suitable explanatory paragraph within the article; and (if necessary) by categorising the settlement with the appropriate category for each county in which has been included.  This has the advantage that it will then be found whichever way the categories are browsed. Any confusion being addressed within the article text. Josephus (talk) 00:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Places mentioned in Domesday Book 

message: This article cannot seem to decide whether to call it "the Domesday Book" or "Domesday Book" (nor, incidentally, whether to italicise the name). In my experience, many experts in this field omit the article, contrary to what normal English usage would suggest. I think the article should be made consistent and a short note added explaining this terminology. There is an old discussion on this subject above, but it apparently did not result in any action being taken (or that action has been eroded by subsequent edits). 86.184.237.148 (talk) 18:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "the" or no "the" 

message: I chopped this from the lede on 17 September 2010 because it seems spurious, it doesn't say who supports it, how acceptable the theory is, and has been unsourced for 5 months. Someone reverted the removal, and 14 days later, there is still no details provided. 
:"Certain scholars on common law property rights regard the Domesday Book as the first written account of "who owns what" in the history of common law. Thus, this book might represent the birth of the modern concept of property rights in The West. "
Please provide cites and any specifics before re-including. Ashmoo (talk) 12:40, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Spurious analysis in lede

message: Can we put something about how reliable it is? Is it possible to find inaccuracies? Or is there just no other records? 195.194.187.132 (talk) 11:03, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliability 

message: Interested? See this page! Andrew Dalby 14:19, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikiproject 

message: A template is now available, for linking from articles about places, to their entries in the DB, on Open Domesday. See . Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:36, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Template

message: How many pages do the two books have? The article doesn't say. --RThompson82 (talk) 07:05, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Page count?

message: What population totals and densities have modern scholars derived from the Domesday book? 96.231.17.131 (talk) 02:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The figure "one and a half million" is found on some usually reputable sites. I may also have heard this from one of Stephen Baxter's videos? Zoetropo (talk) 04:04, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  So what are the resulting population estimates? 

message: Surely there ought to be a few words stating what language or languages it was written in. English, French or Latin? None or all of the above?Campolongo (talk) 13:53, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Medieval Latin, with many words derived from English names. Zoetropo (talk) 04:02, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Language?

message: The dubious claim is made here "The unit of inquiry was the Hundred (a subdivision of the county, which then was an administrative entity). The return for each Hundred was sworn to by 12 local jurors, half of them English and half of them Norman." This is unlikely to be true in either Cornwall or Wales where the legati will have been Cornish and Welsh, even if they held apparently Anglo Saxon names. The study of Bodmin Manumissions shows that apparently English names were chosen for official purposes (glossed with the original Cornish name in BM). The same is likely in Wales. I suggest amending "half of them English" to "half of them English, Cornish or Welsh, depending on the location". Alternatively a citation showing evidence to the contrary should be inserted.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.96.61 (talk) 16:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: English Legati 

message: It seems to me that Domesday and Domesday Book should always be italicized, as are all other dated manuscripts. I can't see that it's been discussed but don't want to boldly italicize if it has. Any insight? Thanks. —МандичкаYO 😜 22:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I would object very strongly to this change. I don't know where you get "... as are all other dated manuscripts" from: as far as I'm concerned, the usual English convention is published texts are italicised, unpublished documents are unitalicised. Compare the Lindisfarne Gospels, Red Book of the Exchequer, Boldon Book, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, etc. There are a few grey areas, such as more literary texts that are better known through their later edited and published versions (e.g. the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, The Battle of Maldon), or non-English titles such as Liber Eliensis, but neither of those arguments applies here. However, comparative arguments are really beside the point: what we should be adhering to is the usual convention applied to Domesday Book, and it is never italicised in the authoritative scholarly literature, and only rarely in more popular literature: see here, here, here, here, here, and countless print sources. (And, by the way, Magna Carta, despite being a Latin name, is also conventionally left unitalicised.) GrindtXX (talk) 23:32, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: How do you define "published" in a world where there were no publishing houses and newspapers? The Magna Carta is not a good comparison as it is not a book/poem/manuscript title; the Latin has now become a common name in English. Anyway if it's not supposed to be italicized, I'd like to know the exact guideline. That it's not always italicized in RS is not good enough; italics are used very inconsistently by reliable sources. For example, this article in The Washington Post does not italicize its references to The New York Times. Is it like a census? What is the reason it shouldn't be italicized? —МандичкаYO 😜 00:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Domesday Book is a manuscript, not really a "work". We would italicise a work, but you do not italicise a manuscript. Thus Liber Eliensis, which is the work that exists in several manuscripts such as British Library Cotton Domitian MS xv or British Library MS Cotton Vespasian A.xix . The MS are not italicised. The work is. See MOS:ITAL. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

text:  And the RS are almost universal in not italicising Domesday Book. From one shelf of my library - 15 books do not italicise it, 1 does italicise it, and 10 don't mention it. (This is the shelf that has scholarly biographies of the English monarchs from Edward the Confessor to Edward I - thus the high prevelance of mentions.) From other books on my shelf (dealing mainly with medieval England but some are general surveys of medieval Europe as well as comparative studies of medieval Europe) - there are 5 books that italicise and 29 that do not. (On the other shelves I did  not bother counting works that didn't mention Domesday Book at all). That sort of consensus is more than enough to get Domesday Book through RFA, or RfB. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  italics 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article states "The survey's main purpose was to determine what taxes had been owed during the reign of King Edward the Confessor". Is it known how much in taxes were found to be owed to the Crown? I think that would be an important bit of info considering that was the main point of the endeavor. Coinmanj (talk) 19:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resulting taxation 

message: The article mentions the book covers "parts of Wales". Which parts are not mentioned. Does anyone know? Tony Holkham (Talk) 23:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: (see article) Tony Holkham (Talk) 13:30, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wales 

message: This edit by RedGrinch – with which I entirely concur, as far as it goes – has drawn my attention to the two pronunciations in the lede sentence, which I'd never really noticed before. The difference between them is whether the first syllable in Domesday is pronounced "Doom–" or "Dome–". But does anyone (on either side of the Atlantic) pronounce it "Dome–"? I can quite believe that someone who only knew about the book through reading might make that initial error, but they'd be corrected the moment they opened their mouth on the subject. I suspect the reverse error, of knowing the correct pronunciation but getting the spelling wrong, is much more common, at least in Britain. I think the second pronunciation should just be deleted. Comments? GrindtXX (talk) 15:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally, I've never heard it pronounced "Dome-"... Hchc2009 (talk) 17:17, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No-one else seems to be speaking up for the "Dome-" pronunciation, so I'm going to be bold and delete it. GrindtXX (talk) 16:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: It would greatly simplify locating entries in the year by year book 107.197.56.204 (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anglo Saxon chronicle references need the year 

message: Doing a bit of work on Gloucester Cathedral. This article doesn’t mention the suggestion that William I commissioned the book at a Witan held at the cathedral’s chapter house at Christmas 1085 (too late?). Is this something modern scholars support? Are there any citations I could use? Any advice appreciated. KJP1 (talk) 18:39, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gloucester 

message: 5 Cheshire, the land Inter Ripam et Mersham ("between Ribble and Mersey", now much of south Lancashire), Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Shropshire, Worcestershire – the Marches
This link goes to Cheshire, which is south of the Mersey. Between the Ribble and Mersey will be north of the Mersey: Lancashire. 2A02:C7C:2C52:6100:61B5:6D23:8976:CAC6 (talk) 22:44, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  link goes to wrong page 

message: The most recent edit seems wrong to me, as it makes the following clause "the Middle English spelling of "Doomsday Book"" irrelevant. I believe the intent was to have "Domesday Book" as the bolded name, to be consistent with the article title. TomOtvos (talk) 16:27, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dome or Doom