Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Name table

message: I see, can a table name which consist of Kanji, Kana and Romaji be implented? (Below) It is better for users to know how to write their names.
Junichiro Koizumi
Japanese name
Kanji小泉 純一郎
Hiraganaこいずみ じゅんいちろう
RomajiKoizumi Jun'ichirō
(post is by User:Chan Han Xiang)
*Why would a table be better? This version of the Junichiro Koizumi page already had most of that information, except for a hiragana rendering. In any case, is a hiragana rendering really needed? Japanese names are normally written in kanji, and hiragana do not make a good pronounciation guide for most of our readers, who do not know Japanese. Josh 06:20, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
* I agree that kana shouldn't be added unless there is something unusual that couldn't be predicted from the romaji. They actually nice to see if you can read them, but they really take up unnecessary space. Kappa 08:54, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a Japanese textbook.  Hepburn is far and away the most popular Japanese romanization, so others are not needed (this has been debated oh so extensively before...), and hiragana are unnecessary since romaji are provided. "Romaji (kanji)" gives all necessary information in 5% of the space of a table. Jpatokal 15:04, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well it sounds like Romaji don't give enough information to a certain group of people (those who know kana but not Romaji, but still use an english wikipedia). I just wonder how large that group is. Kappa 15:47, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm...  nonexistent?  You must be able to read romaji to be able to read English. Jpatokal 03:07, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: May I revert Chan Han Xiang's changes now? WhisperToMe 01:25, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please. Jpatokal 06:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text:  I would assume a rural Japanese person would be looking in the Japanese Wikipedia, not the English one. I would certainly hope the Japanese Wikipedia would include Kana, but this is not the Japanese Wikipedia. Noel (talk) 22:26, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: 1. You are breaking the page. 2. The Paul Kariya article looks just fine. 2. The Korean and Japanese naming conventions are totally separate. WhisperToMe 17:37, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: The use of parentheses is very common in Wikipedia articles about people and things other than Korean or Japanese, for example Russian, Arabic, and Bulgarian people and topics. It works fine. —Tkinias 20:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request 

message: I think this argument could continue ad infinitum (ad nauseam?) so why don't we have a vote.  First we need to decide what to vote on ... seems like the main things are:
*Should there be a Name Table?
*What should it have:
**Kanji?
**Hiragana?
**Katakana?
**Romaji?
Personally I'm starting to think a Name Table would be more trouble than it's worth.  It would be nice to reach a consensus on name ORDER before worrying about a name TABLE. CES 14:57, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. You are breaking the page. 2. The Paul Kariya article looks just fine. 2. The Korean and Japanese naming conventions are totally separate. WhisperToMe 17:37, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: The use of parentheses is very common in Wikipedia articles about people and things other than Korean or Japanese, for example Russian, Arabic, and Bulgarian people and topics. It works fine. —Tkinias 20:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote

message: Should there be a name table?
Vote tally: 1/8
=====Support=====
#Can be used to dispel confusion about family/given name and include distracting facts like "usually written in kana but these are the kanji" which don't belong in the first sentence. Kappa 17:30, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. You are breaking the page. 2. The Paul Kariya article looks just fine. 2. The Korean and Japanese naming conventions are totally separate. WhisperToMe 17:37, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: The use of parentheses is very common in Wikipedia articles about people and things other than Korean or Japanese, for example Russian, Arabic, and Bulgarian people and topics. It works fine. —Tkinias 20:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Name Table

message: #Can be used to dispel confusion about family/given name and include distracting facts like "usually written in kana but these are the kanji" which don't belong in the first sentence. Kappa 17:30, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: # Does not seem necessary, and other articles giving many names (e.g., Gdańsk) do not need it. —Tkinias 20:30, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. You are breaking the page. 2. The Paul Kariya article looks just fine. 2. The Korean and Japanese naming conventions are totally separate. WhisperToMe 17:37, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: The use of parentheses is very common in Wikipedia articles about people and things other than Korean or Japanese, for example Russian, Arabic, and Bulgarian people and topics. It works fine. —Tkinias 20:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: Should kanji be given for all names?
Vote tally: 8/0
=====Support=====
# Of course, but in parens at the article start (like is done for almost all other languages).  —Tkinias 20:30, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Kanji

message: # Of course, but in parens at the article start (like is done for almost all other languages).  —Tkinias 20:30, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: Should romaji be given for all names?
Vote tally: 8/0
=====Support=====
# Since common anglicization does not provide enough information to pronounce correctly, formal romaji should be given in parens after the kanji. —Tkinias 20:30, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Romaji

message: # Since common anglicization does not provide enough information to pronounce correctly, formal romaji should be given in parens after the kanji. —Tkinias 20:30, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: Should kana be given for all names?
Vote tally: 1/8
=====Support=====
# Helpful to people who know kana better than romaji, especially those from third countries (neither English speaking nor Japanese speaking). Also many Japanese, especially "idols", pop stars, etc use unusual kana in their name, e.g. wo instead of o, or katakana when hiragana would be expected. If the kana aren't included, the reader won't be sure that the regular spelling is correct. Kappa 17:27, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Kana

message: # Helpful to people who know kana better than romaji, especially those from third countries (neither English speaking nor Japanese speaking). Also many Japanese, especially "idols", pop stars, etc use unusual kana in their name, e.g. wo instead of o, or katakana when hiragana would be expected. If the kana aren't included, the reader won't be sure that the regular spelling is correct. Kappa 17:27, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: # Seems superfluous if romaji are given. —Tkinias 20:30, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: Well, I've been away from Wikipedia for a very long time.  It was interesting to discover this debate over name tables.  As the person who introduced them on the Korea-related articles—and I'll admit they have a few detractors—let me say I'm somewhat flattered that the idea was raised of adding them to Japan-related articles.  Nevertheless, the need and justification for them on the Korea articles is somewhat more pronounced than is the case for the Japan articles.
Korean has competing romanization systems—of which the Revised and McCune-Reischauer Romanizations are but two—because the complexity of the Korean sound system has not yet led to one system's having a broad consensus among users the way Hepburn has for Japanese.  As both systems are in widespread use both on and off the Internet, they both merit inclusion.  And because of the sound changes in Korean consonants, it's hard to extrapolate from either the Revised or McCune-Reischauer systems to Hangul, so the Hangul is necessary as well.  On top of that, it's impossible to extrapolate from Hangul to Hanja, because there may be dozens of Hanja that have exactly the same pronunciation.  With two different romanizations plus Hangul and Hanja—and in many cases an English or irreguarly spelled version of the article title to boot—many articles degenerated into long lists of stuff in parentheses.  The tables were an attempt to clean up the appearance of such articles by putting all that stuff into neat, tidy boxes.
In the Japanese case, if only the Romaji and Kanji are necessary for most articles—since you reached a broad agreement that kana are generally not required—there isn't the same pressing need to keep things simple.  So thanks, Chan Han Xiang, for trying to advance the idea, but at the same time, I can understand the reluctance of everyone else (apparently) not to adopt them.  
Writing from wikiretirement,
-Sewing - talk 03:12, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  From the "inventor" of Korean name tables