Talk:East African campaign (World War I)

message: The german high sea fleet only had one cruiser with 10 4 inch guns in the area. The cruiser SMS Koenigsberg after sinking the old HMS Pegasus retired into the Rufije delta were it was discoverd and sunk by the Royal Navy. The guns were later used by Lettow Vorbeck. The comment on German pre dreadnough or battlecruisers in the area is nonsense.    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.32.22 (talk) 21:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  German High sea fleet 

message: Can someone put in something about this? P.M.Lawrence203.221.32.204 (talk) 13:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Attempt at resupply by Zeppelin 

message: The section on the lake battle had remains of an old vandalism by 69.40.112.213, who basically changed the battle direction. His/her other changes had been repaired some time ago, I covered the last ones and added a ref. Actually, I think we should exchange the whole section with the one in Lake Tanganyika. --Cmontero (talk) 15:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a source and yes, the numbers are very different.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the numbers to those of my source, by the way.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:29, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lake Tanganyika, repaired vandalism 

message: There's a discrepancy here. </br> 
The Assessments section says "one modern estimate is 100,000 dead on all sides", while the infobox says "365,000 civilian lives" on the Allied side alone. This looks wrong; as the fighting was predominantly in German East Africa, I'd have thought most of the civilian casualties would have been there, not in the Allied colonies. Or is it saying these were all killed by the German forces, regardless of location? Should this figure be in the infobox at all? Xyl 54 (talk) 21:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civilian casualties 

message: Did some additions and tidied existing work but used sfn's as they're the only ones I know. Can change the rest of the parentheticals if desired. Added books to new further reading section.Keith-264 (talk) 12:03, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Refs and cites 

message: Hello. It strikes me that the statement in the infobox 'German strategic success' sits rather at odds with the conclusion in the body text: '[Lettow-Vorbeck] failed to divert additional Allied manpower from the European Theatre after 1916. While some shipping was diverted to the African theater, it was not enough to inflict significant difficulties on the Allied fleets.' If Lettow-Vorbeck failed to divert Allied resources from the decisive theatre, can this be called a 'strategic' success? --IxK85 (talk) 10:34, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree but one doesn't necessarily follow from the other. A manpower diversion was one aspect of strategy but not everything (morale, maintaining a presence to influence post war negotiations etc). It's incongruous as it stands though.Keith-264 (talk) 11:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox: 'German strategic success' 

message: Shuffled the pictures about, to make room for recent additionKeith-264 (talk) 09:45, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  CE 

message: Has anyone got a decent source on 2.2 Naval war and 2.3 Lake Tanganyika expedition? I'm really not sure about the narrative, which might be two events or a duplication. Thanks Keith-264 (talk) 19:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubious sections 

message: South African troops were not considered for European service as a matter of policy is totally wrong.  What about the 1st Infantry Brigade (South Africa) which served as part of 9th (Scottish) Division on the Western Front from May 1916?  Hamish59 (talk) 14:33, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong 

message: There seems to be confusion by an IP regarding von Lettow-Vorbeck's rank.  In the second paragraph of the lede:
:"The strategy of the German colonial forces, led by Lieutenant Colonel (later Generalmajor) Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck"...
the IP is trying to change Generalmajor to Major general.  This is incorrect as, at that time (WWI), the Generalmajor rank was equivalent to a British or American Brigadier General as the Imperial German Army did not have a Brigadier General rank.  It is only in the post-WWII era that Generalmajor has been upgraded to be equivalent to Major general in the German Army.  See also Brigadier general#Germay or Comparative officer ranks of World War I.  Hamish59 (talk) 15:51, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Generalmajor 

message: Here is source: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q157148 What's yours?-194.25.30.13 (talk) 08:28, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The translation of Generalmajor to Major General is not the problem.  Try
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Hamish59 (talk) 09:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

text: What do they say?-194.25.30.13 (talk) 10:00, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Try reading the BL link, which provides a handy table that lists British ranks and their German equivalent. Parsecboy (talk) 10:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

text: Excellent. Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source, and we cannot very well cite our own articles in other articles. Do you have any actual sources? Parsecboy (talk) 10:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hamish wants to talk 

message: There appears to have been a recent conflict over the 'result' in the infobox, and it would be worth discussing it here (previous discussions above are several years old). Personally I can see the merit for both an "Allied victory" and "Indecisive", but perhaps it would be worth getting some WP:RS involved here to break the deadlock? —Brigade Piron (talk) 13:55, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a conflict on my part, I reverted the edit because I thought it was on the WWII article.... I question the recent change because it seems to split hairs between a decisive defeat leading to local surrenders and a local surrender determined by the decisive defeat.Keith-264 (talk) 14:27, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: While the campaign may have been tactically indecisive, it certainly was strategically decisive in favor of the allies. My 1918, while Lettow-Vorbecks army was still largely intact, all of the armies that had remained in German East Africa was destroyed so as by the end of the war, all of German East Africa was secure in Allied hands. The only German force left in the theater was Lettow-Vorbecks, which had left the colony and was heading west when the war ended.XavierGreen (talk) 19:55, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Result 

message: The Operations section also states that the RN shelled Dar es Salaam on 8 August, yet the Battle of Tanga article says An agreement was in place guaranteeing the neutrality of the capital Dar es Salaam and Tanga, but now the accord was modified and it seemed “only fair to warn the Germans that the deal was off.” So which is it? Was Dar es Salaam shelled in August, or was it's neutrality in place until November? Xyl 54 (talk) 21:32, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The great war in Africa page 122 says Dar es Slaam was shelled by the cruiser Astrea on 8th August.  After this event an informal truce was agreed that by Schee and the captain of the Astrea neither Von Lettow Vorkbek nor the Admiralty agreed.Slatersteven (talk) 21:50, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh! That explains it. Thanks. Xyl 54 (talk) 20:41, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm not sure that it helps to make a bigger distinction between army and porter casualties. The British at least buried porters in military cemeteries.Keith-264 (talk) 22:07, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know. Porters are often referred to as non-combatants in various books on the subject, and they didn't bare weapons nor were they considered full members of the armed forces with all the benefits that entails, to my knowledge. Distinguishing between them and actual soldiers seems fair. They were more like (often forced) civilian laborers.--Nihlus1 (talk) 22:10, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Is that what the RS say? If campaigns needed humans as beasts of burden, they were as essential as bullets and shells. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 09:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: While that is generally true, it should be noted that at least the Germans partially armed their porters during the later stages of the campaign and recruited new askari from their ranks; among the German forces, there also appears to have been a distinction between ad-hoc porters, who were recruited when and wherever they were needed, constantly tried to desert and died en masse; and porters recruited from the Wamanyema and Wasukuma peoples. The latter appear to have been more or less "professional" and loyal, receiving better rations and were also armed when manpower shortages became a problem for the Schutztruppe. Applodion (talk) 11:03, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualty records 

message: I'll stop editing for a while as I've had three edit conflicts already ;O) Regards Keith-264 (talk) 18:30, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rccent edits 

message: The infobox is for a summary Template:Infobox military conflict
Elaboration of the details should be in a casualties section in the article. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 12:17, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: No offense Keith, but the version you restored is broken (look at it on a mobile device). That was the reason for my edits, not the abbreviations. Applodion (talk) 12:44, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Apols I didn't notice, thanks Keith-264 (talk) 13:16, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits 

message: Why is this listed as an Allied Victory? Having read both this article, the talkpage, and the article on Lettow-Vorbeck, all the text seems to indicate that this was a German Victory. They achieved their goals and the Allies failed at theirs. In the article, it states that "The strategy of the German colonial forces... was to divert Allied forces from the Western Front." Based on the troop numbers in the info box it seems they did that. The reasoning on this talkpage for why it's an Allied victory seems to be that since the Germans lost the war and the colony via the Treaty of Versailles, they also lost the East African campaign. That, to me, seems to be faulty reasoning, as by that logic, the Germans lost the Battle of France in World War II, or the Austrians lost the Battles of the Izonso because they lost the war. 
In my mind, it seems clear that the Germans won for the following reasons: 1) They achieved their goals of tying down Allied forces. 2) The Allies failed to destroy Lettow-Vorbeck's forces. 3) The end of the campaign came after the end of the war, on November 25 rather than November 11. And 4) Lettow-Vorbeck's forces were fighting in Zambia at the end of the war. Wandavianempire (talk) 17:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The campaign could only be counted as German victory if you exclusively focus on Lettow-Vorbeck and his aims. However, Lettow-Vorbeck was not the sole German commander, let alone all the regular German troops and the population of German East Africa. For bascically everyone on the German side except Lettow-Vorbeck, this was a defeat, as they lost basically their entire army, all territory, and suffered massive civilian losses (there were German officials and soldiers who cared about that). Besides Lettow-Vorbeck, the other high-ranking commanders such as Heinrich Schnee and Kurt Wahle were also captured. Just because Lettow-Vorbeck remained in the field does not mean that the German colonial force defeated the allies. The Germans also surrendered in the end, regardless of where they were at the time, making this a defeat either way - if Lettow-Vorbeck had tried to keep fighting after the German surrender, like some German askari in Mozambique did (albeit as warlords/rebels, not under the German flag), it might be judged dfferently, but surrender he did in the end. Applodion (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Victor 

message: You'll need to relate that change to RS. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 12:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No, as the article text does not clearly establish the "winner", it is appropriate to follow guidelines Template:Infobox military conflict "result – optional – this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive". The term used is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict and should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section")." You need to provide RS that unambiguously describes it as Allied victory.--Staberinde (talk) 11:32, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you made the change, the onus is on you. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:41, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Unsourced information may be altered or removed at any time. Also my edit did not any new claims which would need separate sourcing, it merely linked to Aftermath section which is mostly sourced.--Staberinde (talk) 11:52, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The text does clearly state that the Germans surrendered in the end. This makes it an Allied victory. Applodion (talk) 12:03, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Text states that Germans surrendered only after the war itself had ended. This doesn't unambiguously meant that East African campaign itself should be counted as Allied victory. You will need a RS that actually backs up that specific claim.--Staberinde (talk) 12:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

text: Its a thought one, but as the allies won WW1 they must have won a campaign that ended with the German surrender. Slatersteven (talk) 13:31, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Our opinions are OR, it's the sources that matter. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 14:53, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Allies winning WW 1 does not mean that they specifically won this side campaign, where Germans held out until end of the war. It can be very well argued that this campaign should be considered "inconclusive" as it didn't conclude until the end of war. So claim that allies won here needs unambiguous backing by RS.--Staberinde (talk) 09:23, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: How was this inconclusive? First of all, Germany lost all of its territory in East Africa. Secondly, the Germans surrendered at the end, all sources in this article confirm this. Surrender=defeat. Lettow-Vorbeck could have chosen to keep fighting (while such a decision would have been unlikely to succeed, there have been many cases where something like this happened), but he opted to surrender, admitting defeat. Applodion (talk) 13:01, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

text: It is amusing how this "Surrender=defeat" and stuff made it so self-evident "victory", that I was quickly able to find two sources explicitly describing Germans as "undefeated". Truly gotta wonder how that could have happened, maybe it actually wasn't so self-evident as some wikipedia editors thought?--Staberinde (talk) 22:36, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: No idea about these sources of yours (one is also an art journal, so they are probably not colonial warfare experts), but they are horribly wrong. Lettow-Vorbeck lost several major battles, such as the Mahenge offensive. Even several battles in which the Germans claimed victory or with complicated outcomes, such as the Battle of Lioma, were strictly speaking Allied victories. Even logically, how can someone be "undefeated" and yet lose all territory, most of his armed forces, and almost all military equipment (to the degree that the Germans raided the Portugese for ammo and guns)? Lettow-Vorbeck was a very capable commander, but he was not "undefeated", lol. Once I have time in a few days, I will collect all the sources confirming this as a German defeat. Applodion (talk) 21:33, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Preserving army and keeping up the fight can be far more important than simply holding on to some territory. Anyway, I added two more "horribly wrong" sources, and could probably keep adding but at this point it would get into excessive citation stacking.--Staberinde (talk) 13:46, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:   First of all, I should have previously thanked you for adding the sources to support your position - in the heat of the moment, I directly criticized them - that was not the right move on my part.Secondly, I have evidently not realized the presisting differences in English and German historiography; in essence, a growing number of German historians have greatly criticized (since the 1990s) the idea about Lettow-Vorbeck being undefeated, tracing it back to right-wing/Nazi era propaganda. Having read several German-language-books on the matter a few years ago, I just accepted that the Allied victory in East Africa was generally accepted. However, Lettow-Vorbeck biographer Schulte-Varendorff himself admits that the concept of Germany being undefeated in East Africa was still very prominent in respected circles by 2006. Considering that English historians have probably not paid the greatest attention to this dispute, they keep using the old narrative, dominated by pro-Lettow-Vorbeck sources. After diving into this issue a bit, it seems to me that this matter may be a much larger issue - possibly even large enough for its own article in the future. Anyway, I will keep seeking out more soures and details. Applodion (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, narrative really depends on viewpoint one uses. If one thinks Lettow-Vorbeck's responsibility was keeping Allies out from German East Africa, then he obviously failed in that. On other hand, if one looks at it from perspective of smaller force keeping up guerrilla warfare, and even carrying it to the enemy territory, then it was a solid success considering circumstances. Neither view is necessarily wrong. Btw, his importance in post-war right-wing propaganda may be more relevant to Stab-in-the-back myth.--Staberinde (talk) 21:00, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

text: Perhaps we can list the infobox result as "German surrender; for details see aftermath". In this way we include the surrender - which is not disputed - but also leave the door open for all the different interpretations of the campaign. Applodion (talk) 09:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Afraid not, it isn't a standard term. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 09:51, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody has disputed Lettow-Vorbeck surrendering after the armistice. Simply as numerous sources show, many historians don't regard it as a defeat in this context. As standard terms don't explain intricacies of the situation well, "See the Aftermath section" is the appropriate solution as per Template:Infobox military conflict guidelines.--Staberinde (talk) 13:28, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

text: Can unconditional surrender be a success? Keith-264 (talk) 15:03, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Result 

message: Hello - I wanted to alert those editing this page to valuable source information published in the book "On Call in Africa in War and Peace 1910 - 1932" by N.P. Jewell (ISBN 978-0-9931382-0-1 , published 2016). Based on the diaries of Dr Jewell (medical officer) who was active throughout the East Africa campaign and brings photographic and direct medical data to the historical record. The book is in print and also available electronically, and has a website www.oncallinafrica.com . It would surely improve the record to reference both Dr Norman Parsons Jewell and his published account of events he witnessed during WW1 in East Africa.  I trust this is useful. Please feel free to contact gillyflowerpublishing@gmail.com for any additional information. Richard Jewell 62.235.122.107  13:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source information