Talk:Steampunk/Archive 2

message: What people have forgotten to add (which I have carefully taken the opportunity of contributing) is that anything outside of Steampunk i.e. post 1930's which uses the technology of the combustible engine and fuel would be recognised as Dieselpunk. Films such as Sky Captain, Batman, The Shadow, Lemony Snicket, The Mummy and The Mummy Returns should perhaps be moved to a film list for that particular genre which incorporates elements from Steampunk and Atomicpunk i.e. pre-Cold War era combining both World Wars examples: War of the Worlds, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Flash Gordon, Day of the Triffids, Night of the Living Dead and so on...
So basically Dieselpunk is an alternate future where the ideas and designs of the early 30's influenced the world exemplified with the boom in skyscrapers, gothic architecture, the autmobile, automatic machinery and so on. Tim Burton is typical for using imagery relating to 'dieselpunk' themes.
So there should be a reference here to the other genre. I am already working on the other punk genre pages trying to accumulate enough info and data for the empty ones. Any help is appreciated of course. Piecraft 21:33, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Outside of Steampunk 

message: I thought movies like Sky Captain and the World of tomorrow already was an own genre called retro sci-fi?
:It's called futurology, i think. NorkNork 17:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, retro-futurism is more accurate in this case, but it's based on futurology. NorkNork 17:49, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I would have said Sky Captain comes under the pulp genre. I how much more Doc Savage can you get? --Brother William 10:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sky Captain 

message: Just a query. Must steampunk really stop at mechanical devices? What if the setting say, involved basic electrical systems and hydraulics? Nothing fancy. Maybe just a simple system powering street-lights. CABAL 07:18, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Broader classifications of steampunk?

message: Would the Myst series (and books) be classified as steampunk? Seems to me the machines etc are steampunkish, although there are references to electricity etc, and the D'Ni Art is mostly magic, so the whole setting perhaps isn't really steampunk. But I'd like to know where you'd classify it then...
:There are certainly some worlds that contain traces of steampunk. I haven't played the first game in a long, long time, but I'm playing the third one at the moment. There are definitely some gadgets and puzzles that would be classified as "steam-driven," but as far as I know, Myst does not really have a defined timeframe. Therefore it's difficult to say if it these steam-driven machines are really anachronistic at all, since the action takes place in an alternate universe and in a number of different worlds. Ministry of Silly Walks 04:51, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Myst? 

message: I was wondering if there were any objections to a few edits. There seems to be a lot of disagreement on whether or not futuristic, 'steampunk-like' properties are in fact steampunk. I would argue that Treasure Planet, Trigun and the Final Fantasy games aren't really steampunk at all, but something else.
For me, steampunk must be set in the past, particularly the victorian past, but not necessarily. These are set in the future. I think a difference has to be set between futuristic historical fiction and anachronistic futurist fiction. 
I started calling some of these types of stories sandpunk a while ago, and I was hoping to add that to the entry under the appropriate section (along with clockpunk and the like). Any objections/ suggestions?--Spectre general 21:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a very nice term, but how common is it? I'm not saying I don't think things like this need categorization, but unless it has fairly widespread use, I don't see why it should be included. Google is only coming up with one other instance of this word as it is used here, and it's a very vague definition on another Wiki. Ministry of Silly Walks 04:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sandpunk? 

message: For sure, the anime series Last Exile should be included. Any thoughts?
(preceding unsigned comment by  --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 19:09, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Partially, at least. The normal people have technology that would definitely qualify as steampunk. However, consider the fact that they have shown themselves to have basic electrical systems and radios. The Guild is definitely out of the picture. They have freaking televisions and cameras. CABAL 20:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Exile Anime 

message: I've changed the paragraph crediting Alan Moore with the current popularity of steampunk themes and art.  The genre is too popular, too established and too widespread to credit one twelve-issue 2003-2004 comic with popularizing it.
:I was dubious but you've executed it better in the article than you've explained it here. There's no need to minimise the achievements of Alan and Kevin in popularising steampunk (there's a film too) but extending the credit to include the likes of Miyazaki is fine. Jim Moreau 21:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Jim, yes, what I revised was that the previous form of the article was phrased to give Moore exclusive credit for the recent popularity of Steampunk, which wasn't realistic.  Personally, I never regarded LoEG as Steampunk as the press did; Moore's comics are much more about literature than about retro-science-fiction the way some Anime is or Girl Genius. Jberkus 03:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too Much Credit to League of Ex. Gentlemen 

message: It appears to me that much of the text in the first few paragraphs is confusing.  A lot is said but I don't think the message is being conveyed.  Most of the words require circular reasoning, or knowledge about the subjects being used to define Steampunk.  Can someone reword these areas in simpler terms?  Justabaldguy 02:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reword the Article? 

message: Although steampunk is -- by definition -- fiction, the bibliographical and media lists have grown to about 3/5 of the article length! Is it about time to move the list to a separate page leaving just a short list of notable steampunk pieces here? (Of course any narrowing down is going to be rather trying exercise.) Some pieces listed have merely a steampunk aesthetic without concerning the core idea, so they're prime for culling. I think many of the arguments for inclusion/omission already on this page are too concerned with individual entries than establishing a common criteria. --mordemur 13:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overlinking 

message: this has been discussed several times, but i think that it's time we actually worked to figure it out. there are simply too many references to specific works in this article. we need to trim that down to a list of essentials that truly and clearly encapsulate the steampunk genre or aesthetic. this isn't really intended to be a comprehensive listing of everything that someone, somewhere has suspected might be steampunk. Whateley23 10:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it is useful, but the list is too long and overpowers the main topic - the definition and explanation of the genre. I moved the list to its own article. - Davodd 04:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimming 

message: I just wanted to bring up an observation: the manga Full Metal Alchemist is rather steampunk-ish. It's sort of an odd mishmash of modern times and the Victorian era, taking palce around the 1910's. A major plot element is mechanical gadgetery, and thsi sort of mysteriously dystopian society. More or less fantasy steampunk. So, I just thought it might warrant being added to the list, but I'm not sure if the list is being actually used for discussion. 71.10.236.201 00:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous Steampunk Manga 

message: Does the CRPG Martian Dreams warrant inclusion in this article?--ragesoss 01:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly. But do we need to include every single reference of things that might be steampunk? --Brother William 01:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Martian Dreams

message: I have issue with several Anime and manga that are listed as "Steampunk:"
*Naruto - Ninja
*One Piece - Pirates
*Dragon Ball - Based on Mythology and general Bash'em Up Fighting 
*Fullmetal Alchemist - Edwardian era style setting and far from "clockwork" and "steamdriven." In fact, the only steamdriven thing are the locomotives.
Anyone care to give ample reason why these three should be listed as Steampunk?--293.xx.xxx.xx 21:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Certain Anime/Manga are NOT Steampunk 

message: I think that classifying Sakura Taisen as Fantasy World Steampunk is a big mistake... despite having fantasy elements, Sakura Taisen is very grounded in history drawing on a lot of real historical people and events, including the Mantetsu scandal, apperances by famous Japanese authors and playwrites of the time. It is based in a recognizable period of Japanese history, the Taishou era, the kanji of the name Taishou is slightly changed to give Sakura Taisen a unique feel, but it's still the same period. Every time I've edited this page to reflect that Sakura Taisen is more Historical then Fantasy world it's been edited back. But by Wiki's definition,
"any recent science fiction that takes place in a recognizable historical period (sometimes an alternate-history version of an actual historical period) where the Industrial Revolution has already begun but electricity is not yet widespread, with an emphasis on steam- or spring-propelled gadgets."
Fits Sakura Taisen completely. It's a recognizable period in history, were everything is powered by steam. So once more I'm editing this page, to include Sakura Taisen in the historical section... this time I have a reference too. 
Prince Rei 05:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sakura Taisen Historical or Fantasy World?

message: The article references "Tat Wood's essay Disraeli Gears (2003)."  A guy on a Steampunk mailing list would really like to read this essay.  Can anyone tell me where to find it? Scott Haley 18:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There has been some discussion of that  and t has drawn blanks. Check through the history to find out who added it and ask them. (Emperor 20:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disraeli Gears?

message: I reognized the "External links" section.
One site was removed, since it featured one one specific item that could be categorized as "steampunk", but it offered no other Steampunk content whatsoever.
Added my own website, since besides large Steampunk galleries, it is one of the few places that offers Dieselpunk content. Ottens 16:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In regard to External Links 

message: Dieselpunk gets its own section because someone has written on it; that other variants haven't yet been written about in as much detail is not a good reason to remove this material (it's perhaps reason to do more work on the others).  As for where it belongs, I don't understand why anyone would think that there's a more appropriate place than this article. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 08:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well it gets discussed above and the talk page for the list of steampunk works. As far as I'm concerned dieselpunk (as shown by the Sky Captain) is the more realistic end of retro-futurism and if you want to add anything on it then I'd suggest it should be over there. Not only is the technology different (as the name suggests) but also the general look is different. You might also want to see this (Emperor 14:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your reasoning, though, is OR; the text itself states that dieselpunk is a variant of steampunk.  I'm not myself interested in the scholastic subtleties of this, but sources should be give for your claim if it involves removing a chunk of text. --Mel Etitis  (Talk) 21:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Urmmmm no the statement that dieselpunk is part of steampunk is the original research and is certainly not proven in the text using WP:RS. It isn't for me to prove it isn't it is for someone to prove it is. If they can't prove that it has to go. (Emperor 21:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dieselpunk 

message: Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided:
10. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), discussion forums or USENET. 
11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.
--Mel Etitis  (Talk) 23:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: the tendency is recurring to treat Steampunk as a list of works which have some (and sometimes very little) relation to the idea of "steampunk." this sort of tendency is best reserved for the companion article, list of steampunk works. Whateley23 22:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree - there seems a tendency to keep adding bands to the end of the subculutre section and some of them are either surely off the mark (The Dresden Dolls?) or apprently wildly inaccurate (Sarah Brightman? I thought this was a joke but it crops up here however it is still highly subjective). As with the whole entry it is probably best to not try and mention everything but use examples because of their importance/influence or because they make a relevant point about the genre. The list can scoop up everything else (although that needs monitoring too - as I've said on the talk page you prove its Steampunkery in the entry not just by tagging it on the list). In the music section I'd suggest trimming it down to just Abney Park and Vernian Process. (Emperor 22:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well, i'd say that Dresden Dolls is appropriate, and would suggest in addition that Humanwine and Rasputina are equally paradigmatic. however, i really don't care how short the list here is, only that it's shorter than it is now. Whateley23 05:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, The music video "Coin Operated Boy" by the dresden dolls can be cited as an example, but I agree with not including it in the main article. EverGreg 19:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why Did you remove the masquerade project?  *albums Very industrial, Very SP. All music released via GPL.  Listen yourself (Mirror Location as their domain was snaked. www.dimentox.com/tmp/projects/The_Masquerade_Project-Steampunk_workshop.mp3*
Dimentox 17:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: probably because we're trying to get this article away from being a list of steampunk works, which are better represented in the article List of steampunk works. a few, highly-notable examples are left in, but this isn't the place for every random band, book, or movie which has some steampunk element. Whateley23 05:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say Then for equality we should just link to the music section of the works and not even more make a Alist aka. Vernian Process (which happens to be an editors band/project). Dimentox 14:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: so, are you saying that, because someone can edit wikipedia, their information is not notable? because that doesn't seem right to me. if we're going to remove it (and we probably should at the moment), it should be due to the lack of a current article. Whateley23 04:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Following WP:REDLINK there is nothing worng with having it there even if the last attempt got deleted. It is in the main entry as they are largely considered one of the pioneers of Steampunk music not because they also edit Wikipedia (the sheer force of numbers would remove the link and WP:COI would ensure if there were major disputes they'd have to keep out of the decision making process). Equally there being an editor is no big deal, I've worked with a number of notable Wikipedians about there entries - it is handy as they are the best source of information about themselves. It is our job to make sure the claims are verified and that the entry is neutral. I've found this results in solid well-rounded and informative entries. As Vernian Process does seem an important aspect of the musical scene I've been working to try and get a new version ready - this time sandboxed so that all the rough edges can be knocked off it and facts verified, sources added, etc. You can find it here - comments and discussion are running on the user talk page. (Emperor 13:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: good to know. i'll put it back in directly. Whateley23 02:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: hahaha! i can't believe that i called it "Vernian Project". thank you to whoever fixed that. Whateley23 04:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: i don't follow the videogame stuff so intently. please, edit as necessary. Whateley23 05:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please Stop Turning This Article Into A List