Talk:Jonathan Idema

message: The second paragraph of the Afghan section currently reads:
:"However, it is precisely because of his high profile and openness with the media that it is unlikely that Idema was officially connected with any branch of the military; covert operatives go to great lengths to avoid public appearances and media contacts. It is more likely, though, that Idema was operating in Afghanistan via independent financial backing, seeking the US$25 million bounty posted on bin Laden..."
Well, that sounds like speculation to me.  My understanding of the no original research policy is that this kind of speculation can be included -- if the article is citing or quoting a verifiable, authoritative source.
There are verifiable sources that quote the claims Idema made in the Afghan court.  Here is one:
*America Disowns Idema Amid Cover-Up Claims
*[http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3B6E7737-7468-4C4C-BC29-37A1F6EAE44A.htm US 'bounty hunter' claims FBI links
*Private jail: FBI accused of cover-up
Here is the key part:
:"In front of the judge is the receipt that the FBI signed. Why did the judge allow the FBI to take evidence from the NDS?" Idema questioned, alleging that 500 pages of documents, 200 videotapes and at least 400 photographs had been seized.
:"Now it's at the US embassy where no one is ever going to see it."
I'd like to include Idema's claims.  Trouble is, it doesn't fit if the article already takes a stand that he is a fantastist.
So, if that 2nd paragraph came from a verifiable, citable source, it should be cited.  Agreed?  If it is the speculation of one of our fellow contributors should it be cut?  Shouldn't we be setting the facts before the reader, and letting them make up their own minds?  --  Geo Swan 19:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So you're saying he's in jail because he won't leave? What a nut. 66.104.8.66 20:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The role of speculation and citation in this article?

message: This guy is a pretty unimportant person to have such a long and detailed article. Most of which is unsourced and frankly not well written. I think this should be hammered down to one or two paragraphs. protohiro 01:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Idema's imprisonment alone is worth examining Here we have an American citizen operating apparently solo in a war zone, who managed to provoke the ire of the U.S. military. As for the stuff about his background, it certainly adds color to his persona. Still, this article suffers from a lack of verifiable sources. Alcarillo 17:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article too long

message: After reviewing lots of articles about Idema it seems like information is very scattered.  A typical web surfer would probablbly either see just one side of the story, or would get frustrated with the difficulty of finding information ang give up.  I think this is a great place to sum up this intriguing biographical information.
I'd like to see the following aspects covered at least:
* List of videos from Idema commonly seen on TV
* Compilation of any other material that was widely distributed after Idema handed it to the Media
* More information on his associates including his attorney
* Lots of other stuff
Xpanzion 04:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Expansion

message: Idema's supporters claim Idema worked in many countries with special forces.
Wide Awakes Radio
His military record does not include any combat experience(this statement is included in the article), the argument for his international involvement has more to do with unofficial work, some of it outside of the military.  Supporters of Idema are not made less credible by pointing to a lack of military records.  Lets make sure both sides of this aspect of the story are articulated ; )Xpanzion 02:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Special Forces 

message: Looking at the article history, with its vandalism, reverts and other POV issues, it appears to be quite a back-and-forth between Idema and/or his supporters and Idema's critics. Therefore, I think the neutrality of this article has been compromised. At the very least, especially in the section "Unverified claims", the editing conflicts show with statements contradicting themselves. If information is not citied with verifiable sources, or if it violates wikipedia policy on point of view, it will be removed. Alcarillo 17:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, I just removed a clearly emotional and biased section which was written by a critic. Obviously the subject is delicate, but we need facts not opinions. Skirts89 (talk) 07:23, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The POV issue seems to have worked itself out (or at least the pro/anti-Idema camps have left this article alone for a while). So I removed the NPOV tag... Alcarillo 17:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: I'm removing this section slowly.  There shouldn't be unverified claims presented for a living person, especially if they include negative claims.  I have spent lots of time looking for reliable sources to cite, then when I found something that was unfounded I removed it completely.  Some of the material was verifiable and I moved it to other sections.  There is one positive unverified claim that I can't confirm.  Afghani press reports indicating Idema, and other Special Operation Forces were in Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s, during the Soviet Invasion, occupation and subsequent retreat were not found to be in error as far as Idema's participation is concerned. Idema did in fact have to be 'rescued' from the orginial Parlichuke PrisonIf anyone can find a reliable source with this information please put the information in the Afghanistan section or military service.Xpanzion 05:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Unverified claims

message: An anonymous user added this external link to the article, which I removed because it is a commercial site promoting the site author and/or a specific product: Warlords of Afghanistan: Jonathan Keith Idema. (see the relevant Wikipedia policy on external links to avoid) Alcarillo 16:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does this have to do with the warlordsofafghanistan.com site being removed? Alcarillo 20:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed warlordsofafghanistan site 

message: Solid information about this group would improve the article greatly.  Idema seems to have gained credibility through his relationship with this organization, also he may have recieved funding.  The article currently states that Idema founded this group; however a google search for "counterr group" reveals sites that don't consistently state that Idema owns, or founded this company.  I cannot find a stock listing for this company.  The company website contains pictures of Idema, so there must be some relationship with Idema.
It makes me wonder if the company actually is owned or was founded by Idema.  If not, what has Idema done for the company?  Does the company actually do anything?  What customers, if any, has this company advised?  Who else works for them, and who fronted the money for its formation?  If the website is truthful about the scale of the companies operations, which supposedly include a helicopter shooting range, then it must have been expensive to construct the training facilities.Xpanzion 19:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to a Soldier of Fortune article published in 2004, after his arrest, Idema is mentioned as the owner. I presume that's still the case. However nothing comes up with the North Carolina Secretary of State's office under that name (interestingly, Idema Combat Systems still does). But it is  still registered in New York State -- and listed as "inactive". However, it still seems to be a vehicle used to promote Idema's Afghan adventures. Alcarillo 23:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: That may be the case, but the point being made (and supported) in the article is that Counterr was registered in New York in 1983 and is now "inactive", and that there is very little to go on as to what it did aside from anecdotes and hearsay. If you wish that the more be included about Counterr's activities during that time, by all means include them -- but note that that information must be verifiable. If you look at the entry on Counterr at the New York Department of State's page, an agent is listed. Perhaps you or someone else could contact this person and request that information and supporting documentation be supplied here. Alcarillo (talk) 19:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Counter Terrorist Group US 

message: I was able to find several articles pertaining to Idema published in The Fayetteville Observer Some of them are archived and as such, not freely available. However, searching for "Idema" in the archives will yield the name of the article, the date of publication, the author, as well as some lead-in information. For the purposes of article references, where I could not get a URL for the article I included the article's ID number, which also shows up in the search results. Alcarillo 17:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Fayetteville Observer 

message: That recent AP story is looking dubious, now that Idema's site Superpatrios.us claims he refuses to leave Afghanistan without the dog. Pleasantville 14:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not necessarily. The AP wire story said that Idema was only scheduled to be released, not that it had already happened. I can imagine that the wheels of bureaucracy in Afghanistan move very slowly. Alcarillo 15:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent AP story 

message: I have been noticing that people here have been overlooking the facts and adding unwarranted equivication about his criminal, arrest and military history. 
Idema is not an American independent security contractor
He still is serving his sentence in PuliCharki
He didn't  "allegedly" run a prison he is in prison for kidnapping and torturing afghan citizens. 
I could go on but this entry simply gets too much fact deletion and fantasy addition. 
Idema entered for National Geographic to do a documentary on Ed Artis, returned with tickets purchased by ABC news to do a reality show and anything he says about anything he was doing has to be weighed against the facts represented by his agent selling footage rights, his litigation threats and lost suits against media organizations. Covert operators don't do reality shows and hawk the film rights to TV. Also I noticed that much usable information has been deleted from this profile which shows that Idema's crew is busy trying to rewrite history and suppress information. 
ConTerr (the emphasis on "Con") is the business vehicle Idema has used to pretend that he has some official function related to terrorism (not related to his terrorizing of afghans and us citizens via his and Lynn Thomas's website. His business cards and logo are deliberately used to mislead people into thinking he is affiliated with federal, state or local law enforcement. 
Idema has about 6 known supporters: his father, his lawyer,  Lynn Thomas, Thomas Bumback, Jim Morris,  Ted Kavanaugh and of course himself. If you want to take their word over the U.S government, the large number of published and fact checked articles and pretend their is some conspiracy, you do Wikipedia and he truth a disservice.  He publishes modified press articles on his site, issues false statements, threatens women, children, afghans and now even Karzai. Don't fall into be a hatemonger or stooge for a con man. 
You can find a chapter on him in my book and a simple google will lead you to a number of accurate articles.
:Hm, where to begin... First of all, please sign your posts using four tildes. Thanks. Also, if you are implying that "Idema's crew" is somehow behind the ongoing edits then you could do a little research yourself and see that this page isn't exactly warmly received by that particular group.
:Secondly, there has been a minor problem with finding verifiable sources, aside from general reportage about Idema's arrest, trial and sentencing. Great pains have been done -- not just by me, but by other editors -- to try to ensure that the information here is adequately sourced and verifiable. That precludes whatever is circulating around the blogosphere, pro- or anti-Idema. The term 'independent security contractor' is about as verifiably real to the truth as one can get, with the exception of 'mercenary'. Then again, for the purposes of this article, there has to be some proof. Idema claims he's a government-sponsored cover operator. The government says he's not. What does that make him? 'Liar' isn't exactly an objective term...
:Lastly, you refer to other 'accurate articles' as if none of us have taken the time to search for such sources and incorporate them into the text. Some, like myself, may be limited almost exclusively to Internet searches -- and I'm sure you're well aware of the shortcomings of that medium in terms of accuracy. Moreover, many news outlets do not offer free access to story archives. That limits most news searches to a few months, at best. Therefore, I invite you to actively participate in this article by either incorporating those articles yourself, or referring them to myself or someone else like User:Xpanzion who have worked extensively on this article, and who would be glad to help improve it instead of complaining about its quality. Alcarillo 17:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Postscript: I suggest taking a look at the article's reference list first to make sure we haven't already covered those sources, including Licenced to Kill. Alcarillo 18:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Idema Editing 

message: See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jonathan_Idema&curid=880676&diff=154197414&oldid=153094374 --Pleasantville 18:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is this addition supported by the citation it is inserted in front of? 

message: Issue needs to be revisited due to recent events. Viriditas (talk) 00:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you clarify? What recent events are you referring to? Alcarillo (talk) 17:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, I don't have time for games.  It's been previously discussed on this very talk page, and it's currently in the news.  If you are an active editor on this page (and by all accounts you are) I don't see how you could profess ignorance on this topic, so your question is strange.  The current article makes absolutely no mention of Cafasso, which is again, strange.  Please don't bother replying, as I have no interest in this topic. Viriditas (talk) 09:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

text: For someone who apparently has no interest in this topic, it's bizarre that you would even bring it up in the first place, and then respond is such an equally bizarre manner to a legitimate question. Whatever. This is more circular logic that is at the heart of the silly rivalry between two con artists: Idema and Cafasso. Idema's whole defense seems to be that he was falsely debunked by a known con artist, therefore Idema's own claims are legit. Cafasso just seems to be an attention monger who feels some shred of notoriety at the fringes of the Idema story. The two deserve each other, in my opinion. Alcarillo (talk) 20:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I should also add that one of Idema's supporters convinced him/herself that I was Cafasso, apparently based on the similarities in my WP username and "Cafasso", like some cryptographic device. And this person was quite smugly satisfied with the discovery. I got a good laugh out of it. Alcarillo (talk) 
I have added a mention of the new article describing the police report in which it is claimed that Idema attempted to acquire a laptop used by jailed imposter Joseph A. Cafasso. I presume that was the "recent event" referred to. --Pleasantville (talk) 16:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Joseph A. Cafasso]] 

message: Is this an appropriate overall occupation for this subject's infobox?
* Given what is stated in the  Business interests section, perhaps "Businessman" would be more appropriate?
* Also see WP:BLP#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material - is there a source that states that his current occupation is Vigilante, or is this WP:OR?
Thanks, --4wajzkd02 (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's a good question, regarding Idema's occupation. From the records provided, it appears that he's involved in various businesses, some legit, others of questionable legality. But since his notability is derived from his activities in Afghanistan (running a private prison and torturing civilians, for which he was tried and convicted), I believe Vigilante holds. From the first sentence of that article:
Alcarillo (talk) 20:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox occupation = [[Vigilante]] ? 

message: What that "Lithuania" part has to do with Lithuania? No Lithuania is ever mentioned within the text.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.118.46.117 (talk) 23:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That section needs a retwrite, but crux is (see https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/the-shadow-warrior-jack-idema-232967/) - Jack was hired to train Lithuanian cops, and he claims to have discovered a bomb smuggling plot in Lithuania. 83.255.116.83 (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lithuania 

message: I removed unsubstantiated information about Idema's supposed activities in Mexico. A search of this site came up with two articles, but they are in Spanish. It's not a language I know, and engines like Google Translate probably aren't good enough.
It would be helpful for an experienced editor who knows Spanish to add information, and cite accordingly, from the following:
http://www.sipse.com/noticias/59483-ubican-bacalar-mercenario-estadounidense.html
and:
http://www.sipse.com/noticias/59672---puede-aprehender-boina-verde-alor.html
Halda (talk) 18:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Update: info has been supplied by anonymous users but the Bacalar section still needs rewriting and proper formatting. And the introduction para is starting to lean toward BLP vio. I check in with this article from time to time, but have decided to leave the editing maintenance to others. As events in Mexico play out, I'm sure this article will get some more attention. Halda (talk) 15:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Idema in Mexico 

message: After reading much of the article, the line "He had left two times to Afghanistan on the orders of General Boykin,[41] from whom he took orders from most his life. " sourced from "democracy now" seems to contradict the article. Is the source wrong, lying, or is the rest of the article lying? Seems like a guilt-by-association piece of propaganda if the source is lying.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.124.130 (talk) 13:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This line seems to have been deleted from the article. Skepticalgiraffe (talk) 18:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias or unreliable source? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Substituted at 20:28, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: I've been trying to clean this article up a bit.
I'm deleting this tag: "This article relies extensively on quotations that were previously collated by an advocacy or lobbying group. (March 2012)".  The article now seems to have sufficient citations to reliable sources, including BBC, the Economist, The New York Times, the Washington Post, that I don't think that this is accurate.  I'm also deleting this tag "The neutrality of this article is disputed. (March 2012)" in that the information is mostly referenced-- for the moment, I am not deleting the similar tag "This article may be unbalanced towards certain viewpoints. (March 2012)" in that perhaps there may be other sources I'm not aware of (although whoever added this tag should have started a discussion of this in the talk page).  And, finally, I'm deleting the "This article's factual accuracy is disputed. (March 2012)".  Disputed by whom?  If some of the facts are disputed, please tag those specific facts with a "citation needed" tag.  Skepticalgiraffe (talk) 19:44, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleaning up 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: To be clear, did he ever officially even serve in the military? 2601:587:4300:97D0:4408:F878:145:AD64 (talk) 14:36, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military service