Talk:Marocchinate

message: Source 
Quote:
All'alba del giorno scelto per l'attacco, il 14 maggio 1944, il generale Juin inoltrò agli uomini della 2ª divisione di fanteria (gen. Dody) e della 4ª divisione da montagna (gen. Guillaume) il seguente proclama:
Soldati! Questa volta non è solo la libertà delle vostre terre che vi offro se vincerete questa battaglia. Alle spalle del nemico vi sono donne, case, c'è un vino tra i migliori del mondo, c'è dell'oro. Tutto ciò sarà vostro se vincerete. Dovrete uccidere i tedeschi fino all'ultimo uomo e passare ad ogni costo. Quello che vi ho detto e promesso mantengo. Per cinquanta ore sarete i padroni assoluti di ciò che troverete al di là del nemico. Nessuno vi punirà per ciò che farete, nessuno vi chiederà conto di ciò che prenderete" (3).
(3)Luciano Garibaldi, L'assalto alle ciociare, in periodico "Noi", 1994.
Translation::
At the down (...) of may, 14, 1944, general Juin delivered to the men of the 2nd Infantry Division (Gen. Dody) and to the men of the 4th Mountain Division (gen. Guillame), the following proclame "Soldiers! This time it not only the freedom of your land, I offer you, if you will win the battle. Beyond the shuolderbacks of the enemy, the are women, homes, there is one of the better wine in the world, there is some gold. All those things will be yours, if you will win. You will ought kill the German till the last man, and to pass at any cost. What I have told you and promised you, I will mantain. For fifty hours you will be the abosolute masters of what you will find beyond the enemy. Nobody will punish you for what you will do, nobody will question you for what you will bring"
(3) Luciano Garibaldi, The Assult against the Ciocaria Women, in the magazin "Noi", 1994.
Source :
Il generale Juin, al termine della battaglia di Cassino, diede ai suoi “goumiers” (da “goum”, reparto militare marocchino arruolato nel medesimo villaggio e clan) carta bianca per due giorni, come premio della vittoria che implicava il diritto di vita e di morte sulle popolazioni civili, il furto dei loro beni e la violenza sulle donne. Era stato questo l’incentivo che aveva convinto i marocchini a combattere per i francesi andando all’assalto delle posizioni nemiche alla testa dei reparti alleati. Così per due giorni e due notti razziarono, violentarono, uccisero. Stuprarono donne e bambine, dagli otto agli ottant’anni, obbligando padri e mariti ad assistervi.
Translation:
General Juin, after the end of the battle, give to his "guomiers (...) complete freedom (in it 'carta bianca' = white paper) for two days, as a reward for the victory; this is implied the right of life or death on the civilian populations, the stealing of their assets, the violence against the women. This was the benefit to convince the Moroccans to fight for the Frenchs and to assult the enemy positions in front of the Allies detachments. So, for two days and two nights, they plundered, the used violence, they killed. They raped women and she-children and they forced fathers and husbands to look.
:I doubt he adressed his troops in Italian, so this is a translation of what source? If the general is quoted, he is to be quoted from the original, otherwise you have to say someone else says the general said this. There are some points that can be translated from French with a totally different meaning. Wandalstouring 17:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Juin's speech - sourches 

message: First of all, congratulations to Giovanni for starting this article on a (relatively) not-well known campaign in the English-speaking world.  Also to his bravery for presenting unflattering facts.  I do, though, have to wonder about the veracity of claims such as mass male-on-male rape and bestiality and would like to see some direct quotes and references provided for these claims. For that reason, I've added the dispute tag to the article.Michael DoroshTalk 17:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I understand that the first thing I ought to do, is to translate a scientific paper. That what I'm going to do, piece after piece, when I have time. I'll stop other answers for the moment--Giovanni Giove 23:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why isn't that well know?--41.151.109.65 (talk) 22:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Facts 

message: Translation of .
Tommaso BARIS
Montecassino 1944, “Scatenate i marocchini” (“Unleash the Moroccans”)
From “Millenovecento”, n. 14, December 2003.
Tommaso Baris is a Ph.D. student in contemporary history at the faculty of Political Sciences, at the University of Rome "La Sapienza". His master degree thesis "Bellic experience and social changes. The impact of the war on the civil population of the Frosinone area 1943-1948" won the first edition of the  "Luigi Micheletti" award. About the same subject he wrote the book "Fra due fuochi" (Between two fires), edit by Laterza.
In the spring of 1944, the allies (omitted facts about the attacks).... 
During their overwhelming push on, for about two weeks, from may, 15 to the begging of Juin, nearly halved by the German resistance (at the end of the battle  Goumiers were lowered at about 7000 men), French troops lapsed into an impressive series of plunders murders and rapes in all the conquered towns, mainly against limited groups of people, or single person, until it was ordered them to stop their march in Valmontone. The orderly nature of the violence and the substantial assent of the commanders and the officers, spread the belief of the liberty of action given to the colonial soldier against the civilians, despite the sanctions provided by the military codes for the mentioned crimes.  
In a memorandum memorandum of the Presidenza del Consiglio (First Minister Cabinet), the behavior of the French officer was hardly stigmatized because «far from to intervene and to repress those crimes, they instead attacked furiously the civilian population that tried to oppose» (3).
«Officers let to Moroccans a pretty good liberty of action » and «in general they preferred to ignore e somebody told to the irregulars Moorccans that they had the right of prey».
A note of Juin, 25, 1944 of the General Command of the Carabinieri Corp of Free Italy, delivered to the First Minister Cabinet reported that in the ‘comuni’ (towns) of Giuliano di Roma, Patrica, Ceccano, Supino, Morolo, e Sgurgola, in three days only (from juin,2 to the 5), 418 sexual violence, of which 3 against men,  29 murders , 517 stealing, committed  by Moroccans soldier, who «enraged against those populations freezing them. A very high number of women, girls and she-children (…) were raped, often repeatedly, by soldier possessed by an unbridled sexual and sadist exaltation, several times they forced the parents and the husbands to attend the slaughters. Always by the Morroccan soldiers, several citizens were plundered of all their wealths and of their livestocks. Several homes were plundered and often they were devasted and burned.» (5).
WORK IN PROGRESS-TO BE CONTINUED--Giovanni Giove 23:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A "scientific" paper 

message: Some references that might be worth to check out:
*Monte Cassino: The Hardest Fought Battle of World War II by Matthew Parker
*Monte Cassino: The Story of the Most Controversial Battle of World War II by David Hapgood
*War in Italy 1943-1945: A Brutal Story by Richard Lamb 
*Cassino: The Hollow Victory: The Battle for Rome January-June 1944 by John Ellis 
*The Path to Victory: The Mediterranean Theater in World War II by Douglas Porch 
I will personally read Parkers book because my local library as an ex. I have checked it out on www.amazon.com and according to the index in the book it contains information about the Goumiers action during the battle. Carl Logan 09:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is about the Goumiers action after the battle of Monte Cassino. Wandalstouring 09:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Have you read the book? Carl Logan 10:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I just wanted to remind you, that this article is not about the significant deeds of the Goumiers in this battle. Wandalstouring 12:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, but the index entry about the Goumiers have to sub sections: "German propaganda targeted at" and "as rapists and looters" I think both have relevance to the article. Carl Logan 12:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Let's assume these claims are true: 7000 Goumiers survive the battle. They are given 50 hours to rape and pillage. In that time they rape 60,000 women, children, elderly, and animals. This gives the average Goumier a rape rate of 4 rapes/day! If one assumes that a few of these men didn't participate because they feared retribution, were decent people or disciplined soldiers, or were too physically exhausted after mountain warfare to find and rape four unique victims per day, then the statistics become even more unbelievable. Personally I think that a group of men that is capable of taking mountains filled with well-entrenched German defenders can't be all bad soldiers, or human garbage. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources is being stretched rather far given the "outlandishness" of the claims and the fact that we are relying almost exclusively on Italian sources.  We also know that Axis propaganda capitalized on the Allies use of non-white troops.
I am going to be bold and delete some things. Haber 18:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a possible English source listed. Some months ago some English speaking editors even promised to research this, but well nothing happened.Concerning whether or not the Goumiers are bad people your idea is basically unsourced POV as much as the rape claims. Wandalstouring 05:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My comments on this talk page are not sourced, but I think they prove that the claims are "extraordinary".  Come on... raping animals?  Where we really need to worry about sources is on the article page itself. Haber 13:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article was loaded w/ blatant unsourced POV edits. Most of the article sections or paragraphs are still being unsourced. I had tagged some with fact tags waiting for sources. At the absence of sources those editions would be deleted. Let's just give it some time (a few weeks i suppose?) and see what would happen. -- Szvest Ω Wiki Me Up ® 14:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't have to wait. I put the big template for this article several months ago and discussed it with the original editor. take a look here and into the archives of my talk page. I think that is enough justification. But I want no more unsourced speculations whether goumiers did or didn't do any war crimes. Source it or delete it. At least one English source with a short description is available. Wandalstouring 14:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Please review. -- Szvest Ω Wiki Me Up ® 14:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks OK. Some more sourcing and this becomes a real article. Wandalstouring 15:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Much better.  Thanks. Haber 15:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. By the way, i am not sure if you have heard of the movie Indigènes. -- Szvest Ω Wiki Me Up ® 16:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks interesting.  Maybe I'll check it out. Haber 22:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I for my part find the claims of 4 rapes per day per soldier less extraordinary then the claims of gassing and burning 20.000 Jews per day in Auschwitz. 41.150.81.179 (talk) 19:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Extraordinary claims 

message: I hope a certified Parliament act is enough as reference!--Shardan 15:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Shardan. Much appreciated. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®  15:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, because every word spoken in the Chamber of Deputies is absolute truth. Rossi was head of the Italian Women Association. Her POV is heavily biased. Better to use modern historical research on this topic. 92.146.194.233 (talk) 15:21, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  About  rape reference 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:TwoWomenPoster.jpg

message: I removed the part Integrita added about Days of Glory (2006 film) ignoring Marocchinate.  First of all there was no source given, and this isn't mentioned on the French or Italian pages of the film, or marocchinate. More importantly, the same could be said of almost every film not on the list, as they don't talk about the Marocchinate either.  There was no reason for the film to even mention this, as the film was about Algerian soldiers (of the 3rd Algerian Infantry Division) liberating Morocco and France, not Moroccan soldiers liberating Italy.  It seems to be from a single purpose account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Integrita   Madridrealy (talk) 07:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Days of Glory 

message: This statement alleged to Pope Pius XII is supported only a dead link:
This was sourced to http://digilander.libero.it/fiammecremisi/eramoderna/memoryanziocassino.htm (Cassino), now a dead link.  Since it is not verifiable, even using the http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://digilander.libero.it/fiammecremisi/eramoderna/memoryanziocassino.htm%20Cassino (wayback machine), I have deleted it.  If the account is accurate, please restore it with text cited to a reliable source for verfication. patsw (talk) 16:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pope Pius XII 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: So, we're quoting a WWII-era French general about warcrimes possibly committed by his country during the conflict, not placed in any sort of official context, just pretty much saying "they were exaggerated"? Do we really need this as a 'balance' on this topic? I have no doubt that the Axis propaganda machine in Italy reveled at the opportunity to paint France's use of African troops with a broad brush in their exaggeratedly racist style (in fact, we know they did this elsewhere in the war), and that the more outlandish claims are likely the result of fearful rumor by an increasingly-victimized populace torn between two foreign occupiers, subject to depredation, deprivation, and an intentional propaganda effort looking to capitalize off of this sudden and intense anxiety (the Italian Front being particularly heavy in propaganda strategy by the belligerents for a few reasons), but why does one French general's claims of exaggeration warrant its own section? Would we give Erich von Manstein a section of his own with a quote of him saying "Claims of atrocities on the Eastern Front were largely exaggerated" on a page about a massacre of Soviet POWs? There seems to be a real hesitance for some contributors on this website to accept a lot of the Italian historiography of the war as even valid and while I understand the difficulty of the language barrier in general (though technology is helping to scale this barrier) and the initial skepticism of obliging a primarily Italian viewpoint out of obvious concerns of bias - we don't have much information from elsewhere on a lot of these topics.
The other participants in the Second World War weren't very interested in the Italian side of the conflict when constructing their national historiographies, and so there is a real dirge of English-language material on what was a rather large - if neglected - dimension to the conflict that if given attention could actually shed a lot of light on and give new context to our understanding of the Second World War as a whole - think of how much our perception of the war changed when the Soviet archives opened up in the 1990's and we could suddenly cross-reference the German accounts we'd previously accepted for lack of conflicting information. Well, our perceptions of the Italian side of the war were also largely shaped by what the German commanders and their records had to say about their erstwhile partners in crime - we didn't really ask the Italians all that much and due to our unwillingness to delve into the subject of the previous Fascist regime and potentially alienate a key Cold War ally we left well enough alone and instead of an Iron Curtain we erected one built of indifference. I'm not saying we check our scrutiny at the door, but there's still an astounding amount of what Paul Fussell called "war-time typecasting" that we really need to overcome. 2601:87:4400:AF2:FD12:4C2E:6FB2:23DB (talk) 02:25, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Claims of Exaggeration"  

message: I don't understand the scope of the "Legality" section. Even accepting the reasoning, it does not make "legal" the rape. Perhaps, according to the paragraph, the "marocchinate" were not war crimes, but certainly rape is and was a crime according to both Italian and French law... So, they were not legal. I'm going to edit the title, but perhpas the section can be deleted.
Moreover, the whole "Mass rape" section is inaccurate and filled with unbelieveable numbers. The references are wrong, either not correct or saying different things. Numbers of 200000, 300000 or even 2000000 are fantastic and look put there just to discredit the whole issue.
The "official" italian numbers range from about 2500 to 7000 to 17000 to 60000. In particular, 17000 is the number of economic compensations requested and 60000 is the number suggested by Sen. Rossi in her 1952 speach. Regarding refrences: n. 6 is the reference to a newspaper (?) about a Ministry of defence estimate, a very indirect reference. Reference 7 is the Sen. Rossi speach and does not say that 80000 men were killed (Italy had 150000 civilian deaths in whole WW2, 80000 marocchinati is a joke). reference 10 is the introduciton to a law proposal and not an official investigation.
All bogus numbers were seemingly introduced by a single user on March, 14 2024.
I'm going to revert the edits made by the user.
 Serenior (talk) 20:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legality and numbers