Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 1

message: Do you really have to point out how Beethoven's name is pronounced?
Who is this Wiki for anyway?
Can we not FOR ONCE get out from under this AWFUL POMPOUS influence?
i think the name is important...how would you like that yours will be mispronounced?
It's always useful to know how a name is pronounced correctly. Unfortunately in this case the information given is simply incorrect. As a native German speaker I can tell you that the "h" is anything but silent but is in fact enunciated quite distinctly, the sound being produced near the opening of the mouth/lips as in "hot", not further back as in "how", in any case being far removed from the suppression of the "h"-sound often (not)heard in renditions of the popular song "Roll over Beethoven" by English and American singers.
:This is the English-language Wikipedia, and so we give the pronunciation that is accepted by native speakers of English. In this case, if an English speaker were to say it in the German fashion, the ignorant would think they were simply incorrect, and the knowledgable would think they were being affected. Either way, it wouldn't be very good. Mak (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My point is really that the pronunciation given does what it is supposed to do-- namely, it gives the standard English-language pronunciation of Beethoven's name. Mak (talk) 01:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, yes, if that's how French speakers pronounce it. Mak (talk) 23:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: I have presented a summary of research on Beethoven's hearing ability at Talk:Life_and_work_of_Ludwig_van_Beethoven. It should clear up misconceptions about the state of his hearing. - Gyan 18:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beethoven's hearing 

message: Thanks for revising the Beethoven article, Stirling.  I've edited slightly and added a bit more on the "crisis period."  
I hope you will endorse (or at least put up with) my trimback of the discussion of the Ninth Symphony--the bits about the Choral Fantasy predecessor and the Berlin Wall were already there in the Ninth Symphony article, and I feel they fit there better than in the Beethoven article as such.
Have you thought of taking on Mozart or Schubert?  Both need tender loving care right now.
Opus33 04:45, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Arrival of Stirling Newberry

message: A little while ago, somebody changed "baptized December 17" in the opening sentence to "born December 16". Is this definitely correct? I thought that we knew for sure when Beethoven was baptized, but couldn't say for sure what day he was born on. --Camembert
*You're right, and I'm about to change it back. (It's really not at all unusual not to know a birth date but to know a baptismal date, but people keep trying to squeeze facts into a template, even if it means doing violence to the facts) Here's an online ref. -- Outerlimits 01:53, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: We don't know when Beethoven was born

message: We've now got individual articles on all nine symphonies, which I think renders the discussion of individual symphonies on this page redundant.  I've put in cross-references.
In case anyone wants to restore old material, or transfer it to the individual symphony articles, below I've appended what I cut.
I hope this is ok.  Opus33 20:44, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Shorten Symphony Section

message: Hi- We already had a link to the Wikiquote entry for Beethoven, and there's also already a ban on banner ads in the Wikipedia, so I took out the ad.  I think the article will be just as useful and also look much nicer if we leave these ads out. I hope that's ok.   Cheers, Opus33 00:36, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The ad for Wikiquote

message: Hi all-- This article has a rather long and rambling feel to it, and I'm only adding to the effect right now by putting in more details of Beethoven's biography.  Usually when a Wikipedia article gets long, it is redeployed as a main article plus various satellite articles, with the main article including brief summaries of the satellite articles.  For an example, see (among many others) United Kingdom.
For the Beethoven article, the satellites would plausibly be a detailed biography, a detailed discussion of musical style and innovations, a list of works (already a satellite), and perhaps something on symphonies.
Please reply if you think this is not the right way to go; otherwise I will try to implement it soon.  Opus33 15:17, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Reformat as main article, satellite articles?

message: I reverted:
"As a monolith of the music of his era, his legacy cast a wide shadow on those that succeeded him; he has left an indelible mark on the tradition of European classical music."
Editor Bleh Fu actually expressed a qualm about this edit when offering it, i.e. that it might be a bit "flowery".  I think this intuition is dead on, and would like to give a reason in support:  most Wikipedia readers go to our encyclopedia to get facts, not flowery prose.  If you agree with me (and I hope you do) that we write the Wikipedia for our readers and not for ourselves, than that's a good reason to go for a "just the facts" approach and keep the prose non-distracting.  Thanks for listening.  Opus33 16:07, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Flowery prose

message: Concerning the "almost certainly" birth date, which I also reverted, please see the discussion from earlier in this forum--we've gone through this one several times already.  I can't see any justification for including it unless the anonymous contributor can cite solid evidence from scholarly literature--what is actually known about 18th century baptismal practices in this part of Germany?  In the absence of such documentation, we should stick to the facts.
Opus33 16:07, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: chiming in:  I'm with you too.  His actual, certain birth date is not known. Antandrus 16:26, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm also chiming in.  I've never seen any primary documentary evidence of his birth date, only his baptism date.  Old reference works that blandly stated "B. was born on 16th December" were simply regurgitating the "facts" that they read elsewhere, but these "facts" are not primary sources and therefore, by definition, unreliable.   However, I have seen a horoscope of Beethoven drawn by A T Mann, which rectifies his birth to a precise moment of time on a particular day (16th December), based on the known circumstances of his life.  This, while no doubt fascinating for astromusicologists (or musico-astrologists), has no credibility for scholarly research.  Cheers JackofOz 02:46, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Almost certain" birth date

message: I think this is a good article: a sensible length, with many useful links for those wanting detail. I have lightly edited all of it, without altering much at all in the content. I respect people's well-researched efforts, and feel little need to supplement them. Punctuation was often faulty, and there was some inconsistency in capitalisation. At a couple of points I felt the need to fix the wording, so that the point being made would be easier to grasp without the distraction of grammatical or stylistic problems. Please weigh these carefully if you intend to revert anything: especially, if you make a well-considered and well-explained alteration or reversion in wording, take care not to introduce or re-introduce bad punctuation and the like. (I would welcome comments.) --Noetica 02:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  My copy editing 

message: The article at present has the following interesting sentence at the end of the Life & Work chapter (italics mine):
:When the hair was analysed chemically in 1996, distinctive trace-metal patterns associated with genius, irritability, glucose disorders, and malabsorption were not present.
To quote Graham Chapman: "What?" -- Klehti 12:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's the edit that introduced it. It offers a source. San Jose State University, Statement by William J. Walsh, Ph.D., Director of Beethoven Research Project: "Distinctive trace-metal patterns associated with genius, irritability, glucose disorders, and malabsorption were not present in the Beethoven samples tested by McCrone Research Institute.". Disclaimer on said page, though: "The Ira F. Brilliant Center for Beethoven Studies at San José State University is reproducing this statement for informational purposes only and is not responsible for its content." Rl 12:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Very odd claim. Speaking as a doctor, I've never heard of reproducible methods of detecting or estimating genius and "irritability" via trace metal studies on hair. (Or trace metal studies on anything, for that matter). Extremely suspicious. I've rewritten the paragraph to read sensibly, and would have to take a closer look at that source page to see if it really ought to be struck off as well. encephalon 11:11, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Strains of genius in his hair?

message: I discovered that the template :Template:Ludwig van Beethoven was listed on WP:TFD about a week ago.  It says on the top of the TFD page to "give notice of its proposed deletion at relevant talk pages."  As the most relevant talk page, I'm helpfully giving notice here now.  --RobertG ♬ talk 14:51, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template on TfD 

message: I've added a section nearly at the end. Yeah, the Beethoven Peninsula. There are many other places and things named after the Great Man. The section can grow some, but then should probably be spun off into Beethoven eponyms. --FourthAve 09:16, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a great idea, Fourth Ave. However, I thought it would be perfect for a disambig page, and so I started one. If there turns out to be a large number of interesting associations, we could reconsider adding a lively section on them. encephalon 16:04, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Eponyms

message: I've edited this section that used to include a huge number of links to various personal/commercial sites. The Beethoven-Haus website is an impressively thorough and encyclopedic repository of all things eBeethoven, and is very professionaly done. I think it should satisfy most needs; I've also included the links to source material such as the CBC report and the page on the lock of hair. Regards encephalon 11:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ext links 

message: This section seems rather abruptly out of place in this article, which is a general overview of the chap. It seems to me that it will be best placed in an article about his works and writings, but that's a list. Perhaps Life and Works? I'll move it there soon if there are no better suggestions. Thanks guys. encephalon 16:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Chap?  Chap??  Beethoven??  Really!! JackofOz 12:22, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grosse Fuge manuscript 

message: I removed Beethoven from the "Dutch people" category - there's no mention of anything Dutch in the article.  Did the "van" in his name confuse someone?  He was not a native of Vienna - he was born in Bonn.  I tightened the categorisation from "German people" to "German composers".  I removed categorisation in "Roman Catholics" as per Category talk:Roman Catholics.  I also question his categorisation as a "pop icon".  Is he?  Or is this someone's opinion?  I'm afraid I am unhip, and don't really understand exactly what a pop icon is, but when I see Buddha, Britney Spears and Madonna also in that category I worry.  Anyone else have a view?  --RobertG ♬ talk 12:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories questioned 

message: Hi User:82.181.158.247, with respect to the above claim in the intro, I think it's more in keeping with the NPOV of an international encyclopedia that it be qualified. Beethoven was possibly the finest composer of music in the Western tradition, true; however 
#there are a number of other claimants to that honor, and using "widely regarded as" for Beethoven does not do them justice;
#there are a number of other highly developed musical systems in the world as complex and refined as the European classical; saying that Beethoven's compositions are superior to all musical icons, even in those traditions, is a Eurocentric point-of-view, and not NPOV.
Thus, my compromise wording. I don't think the sentence "He was a major musical figure in the transitional period between the Classical and Romantic eras, and is widely regarded as one of the greatest composers in history" does serious violence to Beethoven's reputation and is, all things considered, probably the fairest way of putting it. However, it does retain the problem described in WP:WEASEL; a quote from a suitably weighty authority may be an improvement. Kind regards encephalon 00:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi there. I can see what you're saying, but I'm not sure we can write a sentence that satisfies all views and yet remain NPOV and unawkward. "...widely regarded as one of the greatest composers in history, and by many as the greatest composer of all time" seems to me very awkward, Sir/Miss. "...is widely regarded as one of the greatest composers in history" seems to capture most of what we want to say while retaining some stylistic merit. Furthermore, to say that someone "is widely regarded as one of the greatest composers in history" seems to me to be closest to what NPOV and the facts allow us to say. Very kind regards encephalon 00:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Widely regarded as one of the..." 

message: The article currently states "If we consider the Romantic movement as an aesthetic epoch in literature and the arts generally, Beethoven sits squarely in the first half along with literary Romantics such as the German poets Goethe and Schiller".  From my limited understanding of the history of German literature, neither Goethe or Schiller are considered to be part of the Romantic movement, and therefore this statement is incorrect.  Jeremy J. Shapiro 21:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Beethoven and Romanticism

message: I prefer to discuss this rather than revert it.  I changed "Beethoven was one of the most important figures" to "Beethoven was an important figure" because the former really means the latter but just uses excess verbiage.  If you look at a standard English style book, such as Strunk and White, etc., they tell you to avoid the expression "one of the most" because it is the equivalent of what on Wikipedia is called a weasel word.  Either say something is the most important x, or say that it's an important x, but saying "one of the most important" x doesn't really say much. Jeremy J. Shapiro 18:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "One of the most important"

message: Allegedly, after a critic complained of his 3d Symphony that nobody'd listen to a 40min symphony, he wrote a 90min one...  Trekphiler 08:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Everybody's a critic

message: *Copied from the Reference desk hoping someone knows something.
There is this really cool scene in leon the professional where the crazy police cheif guy breaks into the guy's apartment and kills his entire family to the music of beethoven. There is this quote - "I like these calm little moments before the storm; it reminds me of beethoven" Then he kicks down the door and murders the entire family with beethoven's music in the background. At the end he corners the guy that is holding out on him and says "you don't like beethoven - you don't know what you're missing" then he kills him.
I love this song as it is so powerfull and fits the scene so perfectly. However, it is not listed in the credits and I can not find it anywhere. Has anyone that has seen this movie recognize it?--God of War 07:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If I recall correctly (it's been a while since I've seen it) it's Symphony No. 9. I remember thinking it was a reference to A Clockwork Orange (film), in which the same piece is used. Natgoo 11:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wasn't the police chief drinking milk in that scene? David Sneek 11:42, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: *The Ninth symphony is very long. Do you know which movement the movie uses?--God of War 02:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Second. Wallie 19:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music in [[Léon|Leon the Professional]] 

message: Don't delete talk page comments unless they are extremely offensive (or possibly completely off topic). See Wikipedia:Talk page, and Wikipedia:Delete personal attacks. Sam Spade 15:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Don't delete comments 

message: It is claimed that Für Elise is a bagatelle.  I would agree but only in the most generic sense.  It was certainly not titled "bagatelle" by Beethoven, and does not appear in the Urtext complete edition of the Bagatelles.  JackofOz 22:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It was me who made the change, but you raised some doubts in my head. A quick quite unscientific search on Amazon shows that half of the CDs name it Bagatelle in A minor, WoO 59 Für Elise. The others just say Für Elise. Alfred Brendel names it a Bagatelle and put it on his Beethoven bagatelles CD. I'd say if somebody should know how to name Beethoven pieces, it is he. But if you want to change it back, go ahead. Janderk 00:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks.  It is a very minor issue - one might even say a "trifle" (that's my one and only joke for 2006).  Clearly it has been called a "bagatelle" even if that wasn't Beethoven's title for it.  Of course, he didn't give the Moonlight or the Emperor their by-names either, but I certainly wouldn't quibble with them.  Before doing anything, I want to check out a bit further how "bagatelle" came to be associated with this piece.  JackofOz 00:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, the New Grove calls it a bagatelle (Woo59, Bagatelle "Für Elise", a minor, composition 1808, first performance 1810, first publication Stuttgart 1867; autograph lost, but possibly ascribed Für Therese, like the Sonata op. 78).  Without the autograph it's hard to know if Beethoven used the title or not.  Cheers! Antandrus  (talk) 00:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Für Elise a bagatelle??

message: I'd like to offer an opinion about the two portraits of Beethoven that are competing here. 
One of the rivals is a gray-toned portrait, quite Romantic in character, painted by Carl Jäger.  It was originally uploaded by Chris K, and has been amplified and defended by Janderk.  It looks like this:  , and shows a person who could be considered conventionally very handsome. 
Competing with the Jäger portrait is a portrait posted by Qcanfixit and described as follows:
:Engraving by Blasius Hofel, Beethoven, 1814, color facsimile of engraving after a pencil drawing by Louis Letronne. This engraving was regarded in Beethoven's circle as particularly lifelike. Beethoven himself thought highly of it, and gave several copies.
It looks like this:  , and shows a somewhat funny-looking guy. 
The "handsome" Jäger portrait is more familiar to the general public, I suspect.
Here is some further background.  If you follow the links from the Jäger portrait, you'll find that Carl Jäger was born in 1833, six years after Beethoven died.  Moreover, I've read in biographical material that Beethoven was not conventionally handsome, and I've also read that, following Beethoven's death, his image was idealized and Romanticized throughout the rest of the nineteenth century.  (Sorry no reference sources on these two points, but I can look them up for you if you insist.)
With this in mind, I propose that we should post the Hofel portrait, that is, the "ugly" one.  This is because we are supposed to be a scholarly work, and therefore should post the portrait that has the best chance of being realistic--even if it is not the portrait that people are most familiar with.  The over-handsome, Romanticized portrait by Jäger might be work keeping, too--but only as an illustration of what the later 19th century thought about Beethoven.
Please note that a very similar discussion has taken place before (posted here) concerning rival portraits of Mozart.  In this case, the from-composer's-lifetime, most-likely-to-be-accurate portrait did win out in the end.  So I propose we follow precedent, and do the same for the Beethoven portrait.
Thanks for listening, Opus33 23:05, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to clarify, I was not defending the Jäger drawing. The only reason I reverted to the original Jäger drawing is because it was the original. People should not overwrite any image with a totally different one, as it renders the title and any text that relates to that image in any wikipedia entry that uses it incorrect. If somebody wants the Hofel image in the Beethoven article then it should be uploaded under a new name and the link in the Beethoven article should be changed to the new image. As a sidenote, I think it's a good thing to start a vote about the main Beethoven image, but maybe we should first select a few more candidates for it. Janderk 09:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Janderk; you're quite right about procedure.  When I next have time to edit I'll try to put together a menu of possibilities, if no one else wants to.  Opus33 17:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The various depictions of Beethoven are so diverse that it is difficult to imagine what he actually looked like, or that they even represent the same person.  However, I think that his favorite depiction  of himself should be used, but there are better images than the blurry copy of the engraving (a better image of the same engraving can be found here , third to the right, top row).  On this page , I find the third image from the top in the leftmost column particularly attractive (and it even resembles the engraving).  I think it would be good to display diverse images of Beethoven, and the image currently there doesn't help this end, as it looks like the one further down. --Jugbo 22:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The Dueling Portraits

message: Surely that is not the way to say this? Style-wise I mean. It's vague and not encyclopedic. I would replace it by simply "Flemish". After the separation of the northern and southern Netherlands, I think Dutch would mean from the Northern Netherlands. Flemish is not very correct either since his father was from Brabant, but it seems Flemish is generally used to indicate this region too. Considering the quality of the article I hesitate to change this. Any reactions? Piet 15:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed it. Piet 10:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flemish/Dutch 

message: Is the current Ode To Joy media sample really the best we can do?  When I downloaded it I was expecting the full ochestral impact, the rousing music that makes you want to go up to a complete stranger and hug them and then punch the air with a triumphant yell of solidarity!  YEAH!!
But all I got was a piano solo walking rather sedately across the main tune.
It's supposed to be Ode To Joy not Ode To Insomnia.  I don't mean any disrepect to whomever upoloaded this version, I mean OK it does go over the basic tune for those who don't know it.  But the file for the first movement of his Fifth goes on for 7.5 minutes, surely we can do the same for Ode To Joy?  -Stenun, 30 January, around half-eightish on a cold winter's evening
:Having lower quality sound files to provide an indication of what a piece is about is fine, but this awfull midi file is just too bad. I vote to take it off the Beethoven page at least and keep it on the Ode to Joy page until there is a better one. Janderk 09:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ode To Joy media 

message: It seems to me that the short section on Beethoven's Legacy is biased and doesn't add much to this article.  Ernest Ansermet was a highly regarded conductor and his Les Fondements de la Musique dans la Conscience Humaine was one of the first major books on the phenomenology of music.  However, it also seems to be highly idiosyncratic and unrepresentative of generally accepted views.  (See Otto Karolyi's Review in The Musical Times Vol. 106, No. 1464 (Feb. 1965), pp. 116-117, for example.)  I haven't gotten my hands on a copy of it but, judging from the quotes I've read from the book, Ansermet's position involves defending the "natural laws" of tonal music (with their associations of spirituality, ethics, and freedom) against twelve-tone, serial composition.  (See comments on the book in the Wikipedia article on Ernest Ansermet as well.)  The phrase "incomprehensible modern atonal musical "language"" is hardly neutral and, moreover, doesn't say anything about Beethoven: it's merely a cheap (and unsupported) shot at Schoenberg.  If by "Beethoven's legacy", we mean "what people think of Beethoven's importance today", then we are opening up a vast field which ought to include references to multiple, significant viewpoints, for example Adorno's take on the relationship between Beethoven and Hegel.  As it stands, though, I think Beethoven's musical legacy is already well represented by the article on his musical style and innovations.  My view is that the current paragraph on Beethoven's legacy should either be moved to the page on Ansermet (if it forms a significant part of his philosophy) or deleted.  What does everyone else think? JonathanDS 10:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly agree with JonathanDS, this paragraph is redundant and highly POV, in my POV. The idea that Beethoven is being persecuted or not given his due is, in my opinion, specious (to be nice). I just graduated from music school, and we studied the Eroica in three courses. Fully. Three, and in depth. And that's just the eroica, not counting the other symphonies or anything. Makemi 04:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Beethoven's Legacy and Ernest Ansermet

message: Prove Beethoven was fully european make your case and use refernces.  No one gives a dam about your opinion.
*I second that.
Now, please be civil. --Stratford15 01:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beethoven was a full blooded European 

message: I've removed the  for Beethoven's Piano Sonata no. 3. As I said in the edit summary, it is only slightly better than a midi file. Staccatos are not used, the dynamic range is not nearly great enough, and to be honest the faster parts sound like nails being scraped on a blackboard. I don't think that's the best way to hear Beethoven, but I've left the file in the article for the sonata to serve as an example. Graham talk 12:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also removed the Ode to Joy excerpt. As said above, it doesn't sound anything like the full orchestral version. The media on this page should be informative. Graham talk 12:37, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Piano Sonata no. 3 

message: Truth seeking is more important than reaching a consensus despite being a wikipedia principle.Because by consensus , truth seeking should be made possible. Please read the lenghty sources first and judge later, anything else is unscientific. You believe in an ideology developed by Franz Boas single-handedly due to Jewish group interests being harmful to the Western White majority.After reading  the sources and additional material (e.g. Kevin B. MacDonald "The Culture of Critique",2002)  ,you will see that my edits present reality correctly. Then you can modify my edits and write lenghty comments , but we won't accept a  leftist censorship.My disciples and I will never accept that, besides it is un-American (think of what Thomas Jefferson said about the freedom of speech).80.138.169.47 18:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you actually wanted to participate in Wikipedia, as opposed to vandalizing it, you would log in and become accountable for your actions, instead of using rotating IP addresses.  The majority of Wikipedia believes you to be a vandal, and unless you become a responsible member of the community, that impression will continue.  Note: the above person is the Asian fetish vandal. -- Gnetwerker 18:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Wow, I never realized my own power.  "Responsible for the decline of the West" indeed!  And I always thought I was lazy!  Oh, but what does this have to do with Beethoven? -- Gnetwerker 22:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

text: I applaud Gnetworker.  WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a soapbox.  If this anonymous editor thinks truth is more important than consensus, then he or she is welcome to author a private website or a blog.  Wikipedia has its own standards and everyone who edits here shares a responsibility to abide by those rules. Durova 04:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It sounds like Mr. Anonymous is more concerned with promoting conservatism and the notion that whites are superior to other races than with editing the Beethoven article on Wikipedia. [[Hesperides
]]
He certainly is trying to promote the idea of Americanism, bizarre in an article about Beethoven. If he is trying to promote the idea of the superiority of the white races he is trying to promote an idea that the humanist Beethoven forcefully rejected, ie that not all men (people) are equal. Whoever heard of Beethoven being a conservative anyway? Ras Billy I 01:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Franz Boas' multi-culturalism due to Jewish group interests 

message: I removed the following from the article today:
:==Bipolar Disorder and it's musical influence==
:Recent research has shown that many of the greatest composers suffered from serious depression and physchiatric illnesses. Beethoven is believed to have suffered from a rare illness known as Bipolar Syndrome or Bipolar disorder. As a normal human may face mood swings from time to time, 'Bipolars' have an exaggerated expression of their mood swings. This reflected largely on most of his greatest compositions including Fur Elise and the Fifth Symphony. Note how the mood of his songs shift almost instantly from melancholy to aggression to cheerfulness to depression.''
I don't think it belongs, and even if it does (i.e. if it is true), this kind of detail should go in the satellite article Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven.  To include it we need a cite; I haven't heard this before, but maybe there's some legitimate research on this.  At any rate, leaping from a diagnosis of bipolar disorder (not "rare" by a long shot, by the way) to a "you can hear it in Fur Elise and the Fifth Symphony" is original research.  I don't think you need to explain dramatic contrast in the work of  a famous composer by correlating it with a mental disorder.  See Occam's Razor.  Thanks, Antandrus  (talk) 18:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Plus, Beethoven himself attributed his depression to his deafness and the isolation it caused (in a letter to his brother), which is a perfectly plausible explanation. Makemi 19:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bipolar disorder paragraph

message: I boldly recast introduction.  It said almost nothing about his biography, which I think needs at least a sentence or two coverage.  I worry that the section on "his most widely recognized compositions" is someone's opinion, or possibly WP:OR - it seems to me to require at least a reference.  I do not necessarily disagree with the choice of works listed - but does "recognized" here mean "recognized as Beethoven by the man on the Clapham omnibus", or does it mean "the man on the Clapham omnibus would be able to name the work while listening to it", or does it mean "your average keen western-classical-music lover would recognize the work"?  If the first meaning is intended then a case could probably be made for adding the Triple Concerto, the last movement of the Waldstein, bits of the Septet, the Spring sonata, the fourth Piano Concerto, and bits of the Archduke trio, but if the last meaning is intended then most of us who are interested would probably be able to name at least a third of his opus from hearing a fragment of each piece anyway, and we would probably recognise as Beethoven much more.  I think the editors of this article mostly probably fall into this last category, and are therefore the last people who should be expressing opinions on "what people recognize".  What do others think?  --RobertG ♬ talk 09:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Firstly, very nice job. I don't necessarily think that a whole list of his widely recognized works is necessary for the intro, but I think it bears mentioning that his work is recognized by "the man on the Clapham omnibus". Although the vast majority of westerners recognize Bach's name, I doubt that nearly as many of them would recognize snippets of his work. So we need to find a way to say "if the man on the clapham omnibus hears the last mvmt. of Beethoven's Ninth symphony, he'll immediately recognize it, probably sing along, connect it with various things such as :A Clockwork Orange (film), and might very well know it's by Beethoven", while at the same time not venture into original research, or devolving into a whole list, gradually branching into the more and more obscure ("Beethoven's brilliant and seminal song cycle!!!"). Mak (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think the 'by whom' question is actually that important.   The list at the moment is a reasonable length, and while different whoms could justify longer lists, that would be out of place in the introduction. FWIW I, as a fairly well-educated, but not hugely musical westerner, would much more readily recognise the ones currently listed (not chosen by me) than the other works you mentioned above. HenryFlower 10:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: If Beethoven's late works sound nothing like his Romantic contemporaries (i.e. Weber, Schubert), what do they sound like, works of later Romantic composers? Marcus 19:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Beethoven's late works

message: RE: Among his most widely-recognized works are his Third (Eroica), Fifth, Sixth (Pastoral) and Ninth (Choral) symphonies (the last containing the "Ode to Joy"), his Piano Concerto No. 5 ("Emperor"), his Missa Solemnis, Wellington's Victory, his opera Leonore, his Violin Concerto, his Pathétique, Moonlight, Hammerklavier, Waldstein, and Appassionata piano sonatas, his Razumovsky quartets, and the bagatelle Für Elise.
This text is important, as it introduces the reader to some of the major works of Beethoven. It doesn't matter if the list expanded further either. It probably should be.
Beethoven's works, at least in the film about him were I remember, the Ninth last movement, Missa Solemnis Credo, the Eroica first movement, the Moonlight Sonata first movement, the Fifth, first and last movements, Leonore (later Fideleo) chorus in the final act. Someone here pointed out that Britney Spears has a bigger article than Beethoven. Well this will continue, if it keeps getting cut back. Wallie 09:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Widely recoginized works 

message: I've rearranged the list of music files section a bit. I hope that's ok. --Eleassar my talk 13:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Media 

message: Needs a list of the CDs he has put out. 67.183.121.68
He retired to the studio in 1807, suffering from the difficult 'second album phase'. Either that, or the above is the dumbest comment I've ever read. Gareth E Kegg 23:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or else they want a list of important recordings of Beethoven's works and don't have terrific English. That would be a lot of work and a fluff magnet, but it might be worthwhile. I don't know enough to do it, though, and I'm not really looking forward to a list of "Bob Jones made the bestest recording of the Appassionata evar! It's on his myspace website!" Mak (talk) 23:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeh, the Wikinazis would put parity twixt Perahia and Liberace anyway Gareth E Kegg 23:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discography 

message: In order to not get any edits I make deleted, I want to ask if this link could be added to the main Beethoven article page:
** Beethoven public domain sheet music
I thought this was a very useful site with only free sheet music. What do you think? --Kylepiano 17:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I say Nay, especially since this user is making multiple sockpuppet accounts in order to add this same link to tons of composer articles. It doesn't have that much sheetmusic, although it does have a bit for Beethoven. Mak (talk) 16:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I just wanted to point out that SheetMusicFox has over 200 Beethoven sheet music titles, whereas the other 2 links, Project Gutenberg, and IMSLP have considerably less.--Kylepiano 17:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Link