Talk:Tree of Jesse

message: From the eleventh century the 'Tree of Jesse' has been portrayed in religious illuminations, manuscripts, wall paintings, wood carvings and stone including a tomb stone; stained glass windows, floor tiles and embroidery. The idea of treating Christ's Genealogy under the semblance of a vine, arose most probably from the passage in the book of Isaiah 11:1-3, the R.S.V Bible reads: 'And there shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots........' In the representation of the Tree, it is usual for Jesse to be portrayed recumbent with a tree rising from his body, and the ancestors of Christ depicted in its branches with Prophets, and Christ at the summit. The earliest illustrated manuscripts did not always depict Jesse or Christ. The genealogy in the Tree of Jesse usually follows the genealogy of Christ in the first chapter of Matthew's Gospel. Not all illustrations include the same figures, the number of characters depicted are determined by the size of the area provided for the illustration, such as seven light windows or three light windows.
Malcolm Low. Malcolm Low can be contacted for further information through http://www.holytrinitystcolumba.org.uk/jesse_tree.html 
Malcolm Low has recorded over 300 illustrations found in Cathedrals, Churches, Museums, State owned buildings and Libraries throughout the British Isles, Ireland and in Countries from Austria to Turkey; the United States of America and South America.
http://www.holytrinitystcolumba.org.uk/jesse_tree.html 
--Amandajm 04:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Of interest 

message: "In medieval Christian legend, it is also the physical tree from which the True Cross was made. However the references to the tree of Jesse in the Bible are most often taken to be only figurative"
When this page was first begun, a contributor put up a statement to the effect that the Jesse tree was in medieval times considered to be the tree of the Crucifixion. 
This statement has been slightly modified by a more knowledgable contributor, but it should have been deleted. The only part of it that is correct is the medieval association.  The "Tree of Jesse" and the Tree of Jesus' Crucifixion are not one and the same. Why not? 
* The "Tree of Jesse" refers to a prophecy by Isaiah, 11:1 quoted above. It is a metaphoric tree of which Jesus is part, not a wooden tree of which the cross is part. 
* The medieval Legend concerning the Tree of the Crucifixion also has its origins with an Anccestor of Jesus, bbut a much earlier ancestor- Adam, the first man.
(the statement - it is also the physical tree from which the True Cross was made - has now been removed)
 
(Don't quote me on this- some of the details are shaky) 
When Adam died a seed from the tree of the Garden of Eden was still within his body. After his burial the seed grew out from his mouth into a fine large tree. Many years later it was cut down and turned into a bridge. The Queen of Sheba in ppassing on her way to visit King Solomon, recognised the bridge as Holy and knelt to worship it. Many generations later the same wood was used for the crosses of Jesus and the two theives. The crosses were stolen as relics and buried. In the late third century, St Helenna, mother of the Emperor Constantine was led the the place where they were hidden. By some miracle (I forget which) the True Cross was revealed from the other two. Constantine, prevailed on by his mother, carried a small piece of the Cross into battle and when he drew it out, the leader of the opposite side fell on his knees before it and the battle was won. This inspired Constantine to put no further faith in idols and to give religious tolerance to the persecuted Christians. Since  the wood of the cross seems to have miraculously multiplied because there is currently enough splinters in churche all around the world for about 200 True Crosses.
Jesse has no part whatsoever in this story, but his more famous grandson Solomon gets a passing reference.
--Amandajm 03:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erroneous material 

message: In all good faith, I have to presume that the person who restored this paragraph, must have thought that:-
* it contained information otherwise left out 
* it had been removed in error 
From the eleventh century the 'Tree of Jesse' has been portrayed in religious illuminations, manuscripts, wall paintings, wood carvings and stone including a tomb stone; stained glass windows, floor tiles and embroidery. The idea of treating Christ's Genealogy under the semblance of a vine, arose most probably from the passage in the book of Isaiah 11:1-3, the R.S.V Bible reads: 'And there shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots........' In the representation of the Tree, it is usual for Jesse to be portrayed recumbent with a tree rising from his body, and the ancestors of Christ depicted in its branches with Prophets, and Christ at the summit. The earliest illustrated manuscripts did not always depict Jesse or Christ. The genealogy in the Tree of Jesse usually follows the genealogy of Christ in the first chapter of Matthew's Gospel. Not all illustrations include the same figures, the number of characters depicted are determined by the size of the area provided for the illustration, such as seven light windows or three light windows. 
So why did I rewrite it? 
*From the eleventh century the 'Tree of Jesse' has been portrayed in religious illuminations, manuscripts, wall paintings, wood carvings and stone including a tomb stone; stained glass windows, floor tiles and embroidery.
This is not wikipedia style. The intro needs to state what or who the thing is, as in:- 
The Tree of Jesse is.... 
* So what is the Tree of Jesse? 
The Tree of Jesse (Stump of Jesse, Root of Jesse) is a metaphor used in Isaiah. 
* The writer above goes on to say that The idea of treating Christ's Genealogy under the semblance of a vine, arose most probably from the passage in the book of Isaiah 11:1-3,. 
There is not probably about it. The earliest-known depiction, which I have sourced and cited shows Isaiah, Jesse, the Tree and a loose quotation of the passage. 
* Depictions date from the 11th century, but the metaphor dates from Isaiah. So we start this article, not by saying that the subject has been shown in Art since the 11th century, but state the quotation first. 
* The problem in part lies because people get themselves tied in knots over whether it is Tree, Stump, Root, Shoot, Twig, Bloom etc. And whether it is a Tree or a Vine. 
If you are locked into thinking "This article is about Tree of Jesse, but the quotation says stump so the article must start from first picture of tree not first mention of concept, then what you need to do is make an entirely new article called Depictions of the Tree of Jesse, which seems to me like a pointless exercise,, bbecause this article is quite sufficient to deal with 
a) The Concept (dating from Isaiah) 
b) The Representation (earliest known, 11th century). 
* So then, is there any importance whether an old document says Tree, Stump, Root, Shoot, Twig, Bloom or whether the depiction shows a real tree or a vine. 
The answer is :- No! It's largely in the translation. And Jesus used the metaphor "Vine and Branches". 
Jesus didn't lock himself into a particular metaphor, for example he talked about himself as a shepherd in about four different ways, each making an entirely different point. 
None of the precise terminology is significant. It is all dependent upon whether you are looking at a translation process that goes Hebrew-Latin-English, Hebrew-Latin-French-English, Hebrew-Latin-German-English.  All that it means is that, like a new shoot coming from wood that seems dead, the old stock of Jesse will produce growth. 
The key thing here is not whether it is a root or stump, it is something that seems dead, but is only "dormant". What will come forth, (call it variously root, shoot, rod, sprig, tree or blossom) is "Life"! 
* The list of ways in which the Jesse tree has been represented needs to go a little further down the article. It isn't of Definition importance. 
Here's the List:- 
"religious illuminations, manuscripts, wall paintings, wood carvings and stone including a tomb stone; stained glass windows, floor tiles and embroidery." 
So rather than dumping back in the first paragraph, we expand the article in a scholarly manner because we are writing an enclyclopedia. 
* Information needs its sources citing. 
--Amandajm 10:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewriting of intro 

message: transferred from section above Johnbod 21:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Root, Branch and Stem

message: *The TOC (table of Contents) had grown too long because every item had a  heading and there were lots of them. To avoid this, I have simply turned the sub-sub-headings into bold type. Which means that before you save you need to double-check the fomatting and add an extra line if necessary. 
*The beautiful pic of the manuscript got squashed in the rearrangement, so it is in the text. In order to make the pic fit better, I incorporated the info into the text (yes Johnbod, it's all there!) 
* But there was a little problem getting the pic to fit, so I added a (br clear=all) to keep the next heading from being in the wrong place. Sooo, if you add more text about manuscripts, add it above the clear=all, not below it. Once there is sufficient text on manuscript, the clear=all can be deleted. 
--Amandajm 13:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done now, clear all removed.  Btw, I looked in Commons for a nice Beatus B for the Gallery, but there are none - I'll probably track one down at some point. Johnbod 14:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: actually I will also add bits more, on architectural stone carvings in particular. Also re the shoot/stump etc discussion above, there is a rather separate iconographic tradition (older than the Tree) of a hand-held shoot for Christ & the Virgin etc - looks straight like a palm normally. A bit on that should go somewhere.  Also is "icons" at the tops correct?  I think it is just a western thing.  Apparently a normal looking tree in the background of many Byzantine Nativities represents the T of J (says Schiller), but that is not really the same.  Johnbod 17:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: seems so -  - but (lets be clear) he'd never seen Hildesheim till after he did it! I thought you were on holiday? Johnbod 04:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the first section header up as the contents box had got pushed below the Chartres pic.  But now we have more than a screen of all text, which is not good. Really we need more good pics - maybe some of the manuscript ones I have linked to.  I think I have exhausted Commons.   Johnbod 01:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I think I've pretty much finished now, but then I always say that.  Nothing too drastically changed for anyone I hope. Anyway, I think it's looking pretty good now - we need more iconographic stuff on WP.  cheers  Johnbod 05:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Attention Malcolm, Johnbod, Jesse

message: For my next question: 
That ceiling at Ely Cathedral.... what is its subject mattter? It's not another Jesse Tree/Ancestors of Christ iis it? 
--Amandajm 04:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: seems so -  - but (lets be clear) he'd never seen Hildesheim till after he did it! I thought you were on holiday? Johnbod 04:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved the first section header up as the contents box had got pushed below the Chartres pic.  But now we have more than a screen of all text, which is not good. Really we need more good pics - maybe some of the manuscript ones I have linked to.  I think I have exhausted Commons.   Johnbod 01:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I think I've pretty much finished now, but then I always say that.  Nothing too drastically changed for anyone I hope. Anyway, I think it's looking pretty good now - we need more iconographic stuff on WP.  cheers  Johnbod 05:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Brilliant Pic of Hildersheim!

message: on Wednesday. 
Johnbod, can you utilise what Malcolmlow has written, which I removed because it was too POV, and read to much like a sermon. I simply left it on this page, because I thought it was useful, and has a number of quotations to be drawn on.
Also, I didn't know ther was a Genealogy of Jesus page. It's often called Ancestors of Christ. Consequently, I've been going to start a page, but have been preoccupied. What I will do is, in articles where I have mentioned the {{Ancestors of Christ]] eg Sistine Chapel ceiling, I will link to Genealogy instead. 
Have fun! 
--Amandajm 13:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Holiday?

message: Righto! If you didn't write the sermon and you can name the person who did, then we have no trouble using it, simply because it isn't the "original research" or the "Point of View" of of a contributor to the page! Can you tell us who wrote it? Yes I'm still here. It's just turned Tuesday where I am. 
--Amandajm 13:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sermon 

message: I notice the RSV we use has: And there shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots... - but the Vulgate has:
"et egredietur virga de radice Iesse et flos de radice eius ascendet " Isaiah 11,1 , or as Male's translator has it ".. a rod out of the root of jesse, and a flower shall rise up..." - "flos" being "flower" - i'm not sure what else it could mean, but I think (see monk quoted) flower is how they mostly took it. 
- since Jesus and others are shown based in discreet flower-cups, i wonder if we can find a translation closer to the Latin, or explain it somehow. 
btw, I've linked to the pretty full Genealogy of Christ   Johnbod 01:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isaiah 

message: Malcolm, you had, re Rogate:  "The three light window is dedicated to the Honourable J J Carnagie born 8 July 1807 died 18 Jan 1892, placed in the church by Henry Allen Rolls 1892. Henry Allen Rolls was the Henry Rolls of the Rolls Royce car company".  
The WP RR article has the founders as: Charles Rolls middle name Stewart, son of John Rolls, 1st Baron Llangattock, and Frederick Henry Royce. according to the fathers article, Henry Alan Rolls (1871-1916) was the brother of the car co-founder. He is not mentioned as being involved himself.  Also he seems to have been 21 when he commissioned the window, but I suppose that's possible.  I'll alter it to make him the brother, unless you have other info.  Johnbod 22:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rolls

message: Still on holidays. Just doing some generl maintenance. This page is looking really good! 
--Amandajm 10:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hi Malcolm and Johnbod!

message: good to hear from you again hope you are enjoying the holiday, Malcolm. 86.15.50.229 14:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hi Amandajm

message: I've piped the link for Hervaeus to Hervé de Bourg-Dieu, which I believe is correct. There is nothing further in the Mâle reference to go on, though. Charles Matthews 12:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hervé de Bourg-Dieu

message: Jean Anne Hayes Williams, The Earliest Dated Tree of Jesse Image: Thematically reconsidered. : link no longer works. --Anne97432 11:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: dead link

message: #Dennis Bratcher at  write under a heading called "The Story of the Jesse Tree". He knows the quotation, but plainly has no knowledge of the tradition of the Jesse Tree whatsoever. He can't really write the story of the Jesse Tree, because he is merely explaining a modern phenomena in Biblical terms, with no sense that there is actually a continuity in this symbolic thing that he is appearing so knowledgeable about.
#At Catholic Culture,  however, there is, as one might expect, a complete understanding of the ancient symbolism behind this new symbol. The Catholic sequence jumps from Solomon to Jesus, and then offers a series of other Jesus Symbols. It's much truer to the concept of the Jesse Tree. 
#Making a Jesse Tree at  follows the symbols of the Catholic Culture site with no attempt at explanation 
#Catherine Fournier at  gives the very simple explanation that "The Jesse tree is a symbol of Jesus' family tree. It also takes us through that first long Advent which lasted from the Fall to the Incarnation." 
#This site by S.A.Keith  actually mentions that the tradition is old, and churches have Jesse Tree windows, but then proposes a sequence of decorations that have little to do with the progression shown elsewhere. 
My conclusion here is that the online info about the Jesse Tree would indeed lead one to think(as one site clearly states) that a Jesse Tree is a tree used to focus people (kids in particular) on the meaning of Advent. Only one site of the many gives a truly accurate picture of the ancient symbolism. It is typical of our society that something with real meaning has been lost and in the Post Modern, New Age search for the poetry of the universe, old symbols have been forced to take on new meanings. 
Amandajm (talk) 12:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok - I looked at several, but didn't see the second Catholic screen, which does indeed relate to the ancestors, so I have modified the text accordingly. But most of the others - evangelical I guess - don't, as you say, follow or show awareness of the traditional scheme - which is not of compelling interest to modern kids one must admit.  Johnbod (talk) 13:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Different sites, different understandings

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