Talk:Suzuki method

message: I had thought Suzuki's father's factory manufactured the instrument called Koto before beginning to churn out violins.  However, something I read recently made me think it was the samisen instead.   Anyone know for sure?
J Lorraine 11:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Historical Notes

message: As a critique I've heard that as adults relatively few students of the Suzuki method play instruments actively.  I didn't see any reference to that one way or the other in this section; if anyone knows more it would be interesting to note there.
:Hi.  whoever you are, don't forget to sign your posts by using four tildes.  And now for my reply:    I've not heard this as a major critique specific to the Suzuki method -- logically, my brain tells me the reason is that anyone could use this same argument against any childhood education -- e.g. as a child I took classes in various sciences and was even instructed in how to perform various experiments, but I (and, I would guess, most of my classmates) do not now study or perform science experiments.  By necessity, if a certain culture strives to educate their children in many disciplines, then all of those disciplines will have relatively few adult participants compared to the number of children educated in them.  // But all that logic is besides the point.  I've tried to find reliable sources (mostly published articles in journals) for each criticism mentioned (along with reliable published sources for the rest of the information!) If you have specific, cite-able evidence that this is a major public critique worth mentioning in a balanced encyclopedia article, go ahead and add the critique in the appropriate section with citations and add the reference information at the end of the article.  J Lorraine 10:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: possible critique

message: I just modified (for grammar) the following, which was recently added to the bottom of the "criticism & response" section without references and without indication as to which section it belongs (from traditionally trained musicians/teachers, or from within the suzuki community).  Does anyone have references/citations for these?  Also, the grammar, diction, logic, and semantic style of the writing still sounds redundant to me, as if it doesn't flow very well.  Both first and last sentences are rather long and the last sentence seems circuitous.  Anyone up to help revise it/pare it down?
:Opinions also include that if music is to be learned from audio recordings, the quality of the recorded pieces must be questioned in terms of style, integrity, and its positive or negative traits. The resulting views are subjective and may differ between people.
:Also, any reliance on listening to a single peice in order to learn it is not sufficient for instilling a sense of the style of the work (where the style refers to the traits of performance that are common to many similar works), since a style can only be acquired by listening to a range of works of common style (including listening to works for enjoyment, rather than with only the goal of copying them).
J Lorraine (talk) 08:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Orphan criticism paragraphs

message: I added this section with an eye for providing background on how the method was founded.  On second thought, I wonder if this section should be moved to the page on Shinichi Suzuki himself?
J Lorraine 14:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Notes 

message: Does anybody know any link to his compiled music sheets, from the first book to the tenth. I think we should add it up as an external link.
:Do you mean a link to purchase the books? (BTW, don't forget to sign your name with four tildes) J Lorraine 23:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Book Sources 

message: Should this concept be mentioned in the article?  In Book 1 it is described as the ability to produce and recognize a quality tone on the musical instrument.  I recall this being emphasized as a student, and now I have witnessed it emphasized with my daughter who is a Suzuki student. Aguerriero (ţ) (ć) (ë) 21:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I did mean Tonalization and I finally got around to adding it to the article.  Edit or move it around if you think it needs it. Aguerriero (talk) 21:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tonality 

message: In Japan, children learned solfege (singing) anyway in kindergarten, so Dr. Suzuki did not originally include reading on the violin.  Later it became apparent that you do need to learn to read using your own instrument.  Many teachers delay reading initially while posture is being set, then keep it behind playing ability so it does not interfere with language learning.  I use traditional reading methods when the children are ready, but sticking a traditional book in front of a 3-year old isn't usually age-appropriate.  There is much variation among teachers; Suzuki said teachers should hyphenate their name with his, to have their own method.MsD925 09:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you think these ideas need to be incorperated into the article better, or are you just making commentary? J Lorraine 11:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Hmm, I'm new to Wikipedia...  I get a lot of questions from prospective students' parents about reading, and it's under the article's list of criticisms.  Maybe the first 3 sentences would work there? MsD925 05:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe.  Although those three sentences are relevant to the criticism on reading, they are also "historical".  Hm, hm, I wonder if it would be better to re-work the section on criticism to incorperate some of the historical reasons for the downfalls that are mentioned, instead of merely presenting it as a list of 'criticisms'....  BTW, welcome to Wikipedia! J Lorraine 07:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reading 

message: I play Suzuki for Cello. I have CD's 1, 2, 3, and 4. Doesnt Tsuyoshi Tsutsumi play all 4, not just 1 & 2? May I fix this in the article, if so? --67.185.26.89 08:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, please do. J Lorraine 08:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tsuyoshi Tsutsumi?

message: When I first added references to this article, I used the harvard citation system (placing author's names in parenthesis).  If no one objects, I'd like to change it to inline numbered references. J Lorraine 05:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: changing the reference system

message: What, if any, relationship is there now or in the past between the Suzuki method, the Suzuki motor company, and the Suzuki instrument company?76.105.99.78 22:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the Nagoya Suzuki violin making company was founded by Shinichi Suzuki's father, so there is a direct family connection there.  As for the motor company, I don't believe there is any connection besides the fact that it is a Japanese company and "Suzuki" is somewhat of a common surname in Japan.  J Lorraine (talk) 08:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: questions

message: Twenty or thirty years ago I was hearing from non-Suzuki violin teachers that Suzuki students might develop into orchestra players, but never into soloists.  Since then many (if not most) young soloists have a Suzuki background.  A list of well-known violinists (at least, if not other instrumentalists) with Suzuki backgrounds would, I believe, add to this article. Ccerf 02:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with such a list is that it would need to be sourced.  If there is a reliable, neutral source (ie non-Suzuki) that lists notable Suzuki-training musicians, we could add it. --Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 23:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If they started young enough, chances are that they have a Suzuki background, or were taught by a Suzuki-influenced teacher, regardless of whether or not they are professionals (soloists or orchestra musicians, chamber musicians, rock band stars or jazz musicians), or amateurs of any walk of life. J Lorraine (talk) 08:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: List of Suzuki musicians

message: This article repeatedly refers to "Dr. Suzuki". The article on Suzuki himself doesn't mention any doctorate. Why "Dr."? -- Hoary (talk) 01:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Suzuki was given an honorary doctorate from the Cleveland Institute of Music in 1990.  This should probably go in the Shinichi Suzuki article somewhere.   But I'd have to look up a reference for it first.  J Lorraine (talk) 06:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

text: the second point, yes.  the first point, I disagree with, but it really isn't that big of a deal. J Lorraine (talk) 08:46, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Suzuki's doctorate

message: The Suzuki Method as envisioned by Shinichi Suzuki is really great!
However...
What the Suzuki Association of the Americas is offering in terms of the Classical Guitar AUDIO CD's (these CD's are an official part of the Suzuki Guitar School), is music that is so badly interpreted, that one wonders if it has perhaps been recorded by beginners. The phrasing and sound is terrible. Hideous.
And our children are supposed to learn from this? No thanks!
Eteriano (talk) 19:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: perhaps you should contact the SAA to request new guitar school recordings.  J Lorraine (talk) 08:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Suzuki Guitar School: terrible Audio CDs 

message: I removed the following text from the "criticism and response" section because I have never heard or seen this criticism published (If anyone has a reliable source for this criticism, please introduce it.  Otherwise, it seems more like a smear than a valid criticism.)
"In addition, there are troubling ways in which the Suzuki organization itself resembles both pyramid-scheme models and cult:
*Teachers must pay for each level that they move up within the structure, by becoming "certified" for each book of the method
*The only way to become "certified" is to pay for membership and training, which enables one to use the Suzuki image and name for self-promotion
*Materials put forth by the organization stress the sharing of methods and knowledge only within the body of members
*The members of the organization hold a quasi-religious reverence for the founder
*Suzuki materials continually refer to "Dr. Suzuki," who held no formal education beyond the high school level, and only held honorary or ceremonial "doctorates"
*The group as a whole sometimes refers to itself as the "Suzuki Movement"; this term has no equivalent in any other form of music education
*On his death, Suzuki handed off the organization to his own adopted son
*Suzuki often used millennialist-type language, as in videos produced for the organization members: "Everybody awake and walk together!"
J Lorraine (talk) 08:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm.  Thanks for your input.  Although I do think that some people are quasi-religious about the method, I also think most people are not.  Regardless of this, I still think we need cite-able, vetted information for the article. J Lorraine (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms: Pyramid schemes and cults

message: A recent edit changed "Albert Einstein" to "Alfred Einstein" and claimed this was a common error and cited the biography on the australian suzuki website.  But the international suzuki website, along with the documentary "nurtured by love" both say "Albert Einstein".  I'm inclined to think the australian website bio is a typo. J Lorraine (talk) 01:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Alfred or Albert?