Talk:Devadasi/Archive 1

message: First of all, this is a discussion about the devadasi article. 
If you want to refer to other articles, or discuss some personal matters, you can do it on the relevant discussion pages.
Then, you have to learn some basic English: nobody, as far as I know, has ever mentioned Medha Hari as "devadasi".
Moreover, her web site is not commercial. She is a pure child, unlike your filthy Kama.
And she does have real relevance to the devadasi heritage, unlike your filthy commercial photos of Kama's masturbating and so on.
So, do stay away from it. 
And, finally, wake up: 
  originally, devadasis were celibate, and it is the filthy Britons like you who perverted our culture
Santap 10:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Ms.Lawyer (Kama's), you should re-discover somebasic decency before defiling others

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medha_Hari
It seems you have a connection with Medha Hari a modern Devadasi Dancer and is this why you want the Devadasi constructed devoid of any sexual aspect? Are you using wikipedia to promote her ? It seems you are running her commericial website. Why didn't you list any other of the comtemporary Devadasi Dancers, is it because I did that you took offence?
Have I accidently stepped on your dance promotion with my contributions and all of this is just about preserving the Devadasi image so it fits with her marketing. Now after all of the accusations that I was here for my self-interests I am rather annoyed.
Kama 08:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Santap what is your connection with Medha Hari ?

message: I would argue that the Devadasi were not prostitutes but a varied group of talented women in the service of the Temples who often used sex in various sacred ways, as well as dance and song. In modern times they were "reconstructed" by the colonial powers and Indian modernists as "prostitutes" and the Devadasi became the "problem" rather than the repression and exploitation they were subjected to.
Furthermore I believe there has been an attempt to deconstruct parts of Devadasi culture and traditions, so that Devadasi song and dance has become high culture and has often been appropriated by Brahmin women as an art form, while the sexual traditions have been collasped into "prostitution" and subjected to repression.
So now what it means to be Devadasi is incredibly complicated, are the Devadasi an evil religion that abuses children and must be destroyed, are the Devadasi sex slaves who must be rescued, are the Devadasi continuing to evolve into new practices of old traditions, are the Devadasi representatives of the best aspects of Indian High Culture?
So it is a "fact" that many people think "poor" "low-caste" Devadasi are "bad" prostitutes, while "elite" "high-caste" Devadasi are "great" artistes and valued performers. 
I think all of these voices need to be heard and examined. The voice of the poor and bad Devadasi is a valuable and important as the voice of the elite and great Devadasi and both have something to say about what it means to be a Devadasi today
Kama 08:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's discuss the issues rationally and stay away from taunts

message: Every attempt to describe Devadasis as prostitutes or porno stars is as offending to any Hindu as describing every Muslim as a terrorist.
Santap 06:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: You can sell Kama's masturbating photos but do not spread this "religion" here

message: I do not promote myself on this site and it is not true to suggest I do. There is no commerical link to my site from this entry and I was very happy to agree to delete links that were to an interview with me on another website, and a link to a Devdadasi info page on my website. I have not reinstated those links and have no intention of doing so...I have no desire to break any wikipedia rules.
I am not a Bangla girl I am a Woman and attempts to infantilize me by suggesting I am a child are only prejudicial rhetoric intended to marginalize my voice.
Lurid statements might appear shocking but they are not proper arguments, it is just the same old story: the Devadasi are represented as a moral problem so they can be excluded and their voices crushed.
My work and life as a Devadasi takes place in London where I have to deal with a variety of religious and cultural paradoxes but how I resolve them is not a matter for discussion here.
Who and what I am and why is irrelevant to my contributions here, which are carefully crafted and properly referenced. The personal attacks do not speak to the validity of my contributions and so are just an attempt to create a social fog by which to obscure the real issue which is why should perfectly framed contributions be deleted just because of who I am?
Kama 16:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: '''This is not a place to bully and intimidate others'''

message: I would like to address this to Ms.Lawyer ('Kama' stated, 'I am often helped by a female law graduate to write more grammatically correct messages...')
 Putting your commercial links on Wikipedia is clearly against its regulations, and you know it well.
 Defiling someone else's religion is clearly against its regulations, and you know it well.
And, besides, as your web site does not contain more revealing photos of that poor Bangla girl, and instead points to 'Kama's page on www.adultwork.co.uk where one can read, 'Access to kama of kingston's Private Gallery costs 5.00 credit(s) for 1 Week', I wanted to ask Ms.Lawyer what made her write 'These are my naked bondage and submission photos'.
Do you think there are many idiots on Wikipedia who will believe that devadasis have ever had anything to do with 'naked bondage'?
Or 'I enjoy mastubating, I am rather shy but this excites me'! How religious!
Then why doesn't every man in Kingston who does a five-knuckle shuffle proclaim himself a saint? 
I understand that you are just exploiting - maybe in a non-violent way - that poor Bangla girl, but...
Geosammie 15:59, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikipedia is not a platform to advertise prostitution and adult web sites

message: Kama 12:05, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Please do not resort to personal insults...

message: The interview also makes it clear that I was born into a Devadasi family that had suffered because of the moralist prejudices against the Devadasi. In redicovering my Devadasi culture and traditions I have had to contend with a great deal of prejudice and even some pretty nasty personal attacks.
However I am a Devadasi and just because you don't like how I live a Devadasi lifestyle that is not an excuse to censor my contributions to the Devadasi page, that are properly referenced and quite balanced.
You are trying to use stigma to isolate and exclude me, this is a well-worn strategy of the bigot and moralist.
The issue is the academic validity of my contributions not my life-style choices. So please stay with the content of the entry and not my personal life.
prejudicial references to people by race and skin colour are neither amusing or helpful...
Kama 12:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I was born into a Devadasi family 

message: So you are deleting my posts not according to their merit but just because you have a problem with me, that is not acceptable. You repeat rumours and lies and do not add anything constructive to the Devadasi entry. This is vandalism. You cyberstalk me and take every opportunity to perpetrate your hate campaign.
I am studying in the UK so I am not the under-educated woman you would like to construct me as.
I do not promote my work here and you are only making that accusation to try and lend a legitimacy to your vandalism.
         =To whoever signs here as "Kama:=
You say that you do not promote your work here, but you  placed direct links to your commercial web site, which is the obvious violation of Wikipedia's rules.
There is nothing on Kama's web sites that could be related to devadasi. 
One more thing: for a prostitute like Kama who even never studied dance, her "fees" ("In-call 800.00 pounds"!) are exorbitant.
Santap 04:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Harassment is manifest 

message: The first paragraphs are horrific. I actually read all the way down to the contents box, paused, and realized I still have Absolutely no idea what Devadasi means. Thats a BAD start. The only clue is given by "married" - its in inverted commas. WTF?! What the hell does " "married" "mean?! It doesnt explain, and the beginning of this article needs a total rewrite.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.215.127 (talk) 17:08, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Encyclopedia = Definitions 

message: It doesn't make much sense to talk about the 'historical' meaning of devadasi before the current meaning.  I soon will restructure the article to make sense.  This article will first say what 'devadasi' is (cult prostitution), and then talk about its history (dancers or whatever).  While I remember letting the current setup be to attempt compromise with fundamentalist whitewashers, I can no longer accept this illogical structure.  Right now this article tries to work around admitting that this is cult prostitution, but soon it will be brought back in line with reality.  The Behnam 14:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pending restructure 

message: Multiple sock puppets are adding false references about devadais in this article. Devadasi phenomenon was an offshoot of old Hindu kingdoms in India. The phenomenon has ceased to exist for since 1925 AD. So everything in this article refers to the past not present.
The following IP addresses may be sock puppets of a single user using an anonymizing website for making edits.
:Devadasis have not 'ceased to exist', as a cursory glance at the literature will confirm.  The practice is declining, however, as noted in the article. Earthlyreason (talk) 10:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devadasi references 

message: All the following edits are coming via an anonymizer website.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/61.246.36.63
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/220.227.178.18
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/59.106.138.10
MarkPC (talk) 01:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anonymized vandalism 

message: The Erotic Sculptures of India, Y. Krishan, Artibus Asiae, Vol. 34, No. 4 (1972), pp. 331-343 provides references that describe the social status of Kaikolar women in India. The author explains how the Kaikolar Devadasi could never become a widow as she was considered to be married to the temple deity. Moreover the beads in her tali (thread worn by married Hindu women) were considered to bring good luck to women.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.73.138.77 (talk) 03:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference describes the social status of Kaikolar Devadasis 

message: Keep the focus of the article.
MarkPC (talk) 13:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  New users should not revert article before discussing on the talk page 

message: This user has created this account for the sole purpose of edit warring on this article. User has also been using multiple socks and ips across other articles in the past. Youonlylivetwice (talk) 14:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  MarkPC is a sock of banned user 

message: The book South Asian Social Scientist By South Asian Social Science Association, Department of Anthropology, University of Madras says that when a Kaikolar devadasi died, her body was covered with a new cloth removed from the idol, and flowers were supplied from the temple to which she belonged. No puja was performed in the temple until the body was disposed of. Here is a snippet view to the page in the book .
Youonlylivetwice (talk) 15:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Added academic source for the funeral procedures of Kaikolar devadasi

message: has been reverting the edits of multiple editors from day one. This is evident from his contributions. All the ips that he has been accusing above have been proven as not an open proxy.
In , , , , , he has listed multiple ips and has reverted edits by multiple users shown by his edits: , , , , , , , , ,  
Proof that the ips are not open proxies:
1. 72.179.51.5 not an open proxy. proof: 
2. 59.106.138.10 not an open proxy. proof: 
3. 220.227.178.18 not an open proxy. proof: 
4. 64.73.138.77 not an open proxy. proof: 
5. 162.42.207.34 not an open proxy. proof: 
6. 202.134.73.50 not an open proxy. proof: 
 has been edit-warring and was warned by multiple editors and admins. He almost got banned but somehow seems to have slipped through the net.  is definitely a sock of a banned user /  (see ) who has been making disruptive edits to article Devadasi. This id has been created for the sole purpose of edit-warring: a quick review of his contributions would reveal this.
Youonlylivetwice (talk) 06:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Heavy pushing of POV by {{user|MarkPC}} who has been edit-warring with multiple independent editors trying to push POV

message: I have standardised the term as lower case: ‘devadasi’.  This seems to be the predominant, and logical, presentation.  However, the capitalised form ‘Devadasi' is relatively more common in Indian texts.  So I've added a bracketed note in the second section to that effect. Earthlyreason (talk) 10:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Capitalisation

message: Anything useful here? Totnesmartin (talk) 11:43, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Grauniad 

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests November 2011 
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thread_title: File:Temple dancer.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 22 November 2011 
;What should I do?
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
* If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
* If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: File:Dancer.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I stumbled apon a documentary film in the educational branch of the Swedish "state-owned" PBS. It portrays devadasi as a system where young girls are dedicated to an unmarried life in prostitution for the economic gain of their families. This is not the picture given in the Wikipedia article. By googling I found good support for the picture given by the documentary. I think the main problem with this article is that i focusses on the historic concept. The current state of affairs should be given priority, and history should be given as background. 
*Skeptic
*Telegraph
*Encyclopedia Britannica 
*BBC
*Guardian
*Guardian 
--Ettrig (talk) 07:33, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If it's correct that devadasi was much more common "historically" than in the present day (as seems to be the case), then I would think that the historical basis and practice of the system should at least be given equal weight with the current situation. The current situation is obviously better material for documentaries, but it's still only a snapshot of a very brief period of time. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Girls forced into prostitution to provide income for their families 

message: This doesn't parse as english, and I wonder what the intended meaning is, or what the relation is between the first half and the second half: Colonial views on devadasis are hotly disputed by several groups and organizations in India and by western academics as the inability of the British to distinguish them from the petty girls who danced in the streets   I looked in the refs for anything about this "inability", but see none.  Just deleting the second half may work, but perhaps some source is saying that the dispute closely relates to that inability somehow. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 18:56, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing sentence about "inability to distinguish" 

message: Could someone please do a massive rewrite of the beginning of this article? There may be more damage further down, I couldn't make it pas the "i", the personal opinion, the horrible (lack of) punctuation and the complete lack of actual information.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.150.204 (talk) 03:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewriting 

message: This is so accepted by all:  Leftwing, Rightwing, Human Rights Organizations, Feminists, Hindus no linked to Teosophy, Indian Government, Atheist and Rationalists in India, Sociologists, Devadasis themselves, etc.
Only Wikipedia tries to denying this fact.  Every other website accept the reality.
So I have removed words falsely claiming Devadasis have high status, or girls "want and like" to be devadasis, a very defammatory and racist concept.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.207.187.233 (talk) 16:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devadasi is Prostitution and is forced upon girls 

message: This version of the article contains well-sourced statements about the relationship of the devadasi tradition to forced prostitution. Some editors removed well-sourced information. I encourage other editors to research the topic, reintroduce the well-sourced statements regarding devadasi and prostitution, and provide more sources as well (there are many). Cogiati (talk) 06:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think we need such quote or information, which is certainly incorrect. Well, what i am trying to tell is, that Anil Chawla has no page in wikipedia, makes him no-namer already, then he's not actually explaining the devadasi system, but criticizing it by posing a very negative side. Removal of other information by Handyunits is valid, because this page seems to be depending on a single source too much, if you revert to the 1 day older version. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:52, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The page is too heavily biased by not explaining the negative side of devadasi. An author having no article on Wikipedia doesn't mean he isn't a reliable source. The removal of information wasn't valid, the information was properly sources and balanced the article. Cogiati (talk) 12:20, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is always some abuse of profession, there are doctors who are criticized for stealing organs, nurses are criticized for night duty, cops are required for having ties with criminals, and so on.. So we were are going to add all of them everywhere? Sorry, there's no need of anything like "negative views", they are certainly not needed, it has been already mentioned in whole page, at least 24 times, that devadasi tradition has been abused for prostitution, thus leading to ban it, in the same sense that no marriages are regarded unless it's with the opposite gender, and prostitution in India is illegal.. It's not just for Devadasi but for just any other type of person. Since there were only 45% of Devadasi involved in Prostitution, as per the page, it can't be really regarded as prostitution either. I have found this interesting link , suggesting that 30% of female servants in Paris are prostitutes, so we are going to regard servant job in Paris as a "type of prostitute"? Bladesmulti (talk) 13:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  45% of devadasis being prostitutes isn't a low percentage, it's quite high, considering that most prostitution is unreported or hidden, if statisticians managed to discover 45% then the actual percentage must be double that. Probably the other 55% who weren't reported as prostitutes are just hidden prostitutes. If I understand correctly, the devadasi practice has been declared illegal, thus the lawmakers probably understand it's dangerous for the girls, obviously because of the prostution element. An encyclopedia article hiding the widespread prostitution of this practice would place more girls at risk, since someone could cite the article to make the girls or their parents believe that the practice has merit, and thus more girls would fall victim to forced prostitution, so it's important to make all viewpoints visible in the article in a neutral manner, and now the article is biased to a pro-devadasi view. Interesting link, if 30% of Paris female servants are prostitutes then yes, I'd personally classify the profession as a prostitution-associated profession, in a similar way to body massage providers: a number of them offer only massage, and a number of them offer massage plus sexual services. If it happens with servants as well then I'd say it should be noted in the relevant article too. Cogiati (talk) 14:51, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let's don't talk about being "unreported", because it's baseless, what i am trying to tell is, that more than 20 times, this article has already highlighted the prostitution. Which is certainly enough. Marrying a temple and dedicating life to temple is not certainly 'harmful', just zero legal proceeding or recognition of such activity in documents. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:15, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devadasi as sexual slavery 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Devadasi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071013145724/http://hinduonnet.com:80/folio/fo9812/98120060.htm to http://www.hinduonnet.com/folio/fo9812/98120060.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Maybe all forms da:Bajadere, eo:Bajadero, sv:Bajadär, de:Bajadere and all that forms should get bound together bei interwiki. --Itu (talk) 20:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bajadere 

message: The begining paragraphs are a mixture of Devadasi, Rajadasi and maharasthriya "devadasi" they are all not the same thing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Triphala (talk • contribs) 00:26, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  begining para need redoing 

message: The account Elashwarapu made two edits, the other one seems a bit odd (Krishna district to krishna district with a lower-case K). I'm trying to figure out what the other edit is, but i don't see the difference. PizzaMan (♨♨) 20:24, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The first one corrected a spelling error ("Kristna")while making a caps error and the second one placed a comma incorrectly.--Quisqualis (talk) 01:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  What changed in this edit? 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070328144857/http://www.cpamedia.com/culture/slave_girls_yellama/ to http://cpamedia.com/culture/slave_girls_yellama/
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thread_title:  External links modified