Talk:Immigration to Australia

message: This section does not deserve as much attention as it is receiving, really.  Arguments over the winners/losers of immigration is covered in articles that cover mobility of labor and how it affects all countries.
Does evryone in this formum that came here on a NZ passport realize that if they arrived after Jan 2001, they will never get Citizenship probably?.
No PR Visa or Citizenship means ZERO financial help by way of unemployment or sickness benefit ever!! should you need it.
No help if unemployed means no can pay rent, no food and school fees.
Unless Rudd reverses Howards appication of the Immigration act towards the Social Securtity act be reversed like the very unfair I.R (work choices) law.
OZ now has significant trade lined up thanks in part to NZ worth $80B... so I am told. So any cost to Australia is not significant anyway.
Mr Rudd has proven to be the best PM OZ has seen for over a decade, but if he wont help the Kiwi who will??..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.131.30.172 (talk) 11:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Battlers" aside, I would like to see this article thoroughly reviewed for POV-pushing. Wikipedia doesn't exist to propagandize for Australia's immigration industry. ZwickauDeluxe (talk) 18:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, the article has tendentious and irrelevant writing from all political sides and lacks objectivity and clarity.  Kransky (talk) 08:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Immigration and Economics

message: The article states:
:"Both major Australian political parties favour a relatively high level of immigration. When John Howard became Prime Minister, net migration was rising, and the upward trend in the number of immigrants has increased over the decade since he took office. According to Banham, Australian political leaders who support higher immigration include Amanda Vanstone, John Howard"
What is "relatively high" immigration? In the first few years after John Howard became PM, he reduced immigration, so it wasn't "rising" as the article states. Article says J.Howard supports "higher immigration"... higher than what? Higher than he has allowed? Much of this text is meaningless.--Lester 02:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Immigration and Australian politics

message: * I have added a POV-section tag to this section. It is a hatchet job on the Liberal party. It is also out of date now that the Libs are out of government. I would favour deletion of the entire section, but if someone rewrites it to NPOV I will remove the tag. --Surturz (talk) 06:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: POV tag June 2008

message: The poster used is a good indication of the white Australia policy,and might be from either pre-WW2 or just after.Does anyone know the date it was made? The politics of Australian immigration policy is a matter of record.Ern Malleyscrub (talk) 01:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Poster illustration,Origin Date

message: unfair treatment of Kiwis
Mateship in OZ for New Zealanders?...  yeah right.
Over the past many decades NZ’ers have worked and even died along side their OZ’y cousins throughout good times and bad.
In world conflicts this has happened and still does today. Some 500,000 Kiwis now call OZ home. They have helped build its economy during the boom times alongside ordinary Australians, hell OZ even steals the odd one now and then like Russel Crowe.
Are we like brothers?. Well well when it suits the answer is YES!!. But in times of trouble are we Brothers?, the answer is yes.. we send Kiwi firefighters here even donations.
But is this repaid in kind?. The answer is NO!.  I would bet that the average OZy does not know that any Kiwi that arrived after Feb 2001 cannot access Centerlink assistance should they through no fault of their own, lose their job.    Answer… Kiwi go home.  Go home and get help from your own Government cause we don’t need you right now.
Closer economic ties worth 80 billion and a domestic air agreement making it easier for Qantas to make money flying Kiwis here, but no Centerlink help.
The reason is due to John Howard changing the immigration laws to make all Kiwis treated the same as the rest of the world. From Zimbabwe to China and now NZ all must meet the tough permanent visa laws. Which means even if you are in full time employment, own property and even have your children in School here for many years. If you cannot meet the criteria in the skilled category and be under 45 years old or be able to buy a substantial business in Australia, you cannot really call it home.. not now not ever.
Kiwi go home.  Will Mr Ruddd right the wrong of the Howard Government?.  Will Turnbull if he was to regain Government?. Who knows because if you ask them, neither will respond.
* I'm not interested in getting into a political argie-bargie with anyone, but I can say with the utmost confidence that the tense used in this line:  "...and the upward trend in the number of immigrants has increased over the decade since he took office" (referring to Howard) is just plain wrong - it's terrible grammar.   Seeing Howard left office whenever it was, "has increased over the decade since he took office" is terrible grammar, regardless of whether it's correct or not.  πιππίνυ δ - (dica) 07:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Poor quality grammar

message: Does evryone in this formum that came here on a NZ passport realize that if they arrived after Jan 2001, they will never get Citizenship probably?.
No PR Visa or Citizenship means ZERO financial help by way of unemployment or sickness benefit ever!! should you need it.
No help if unemployed means no can pay rent, no food and school fees.
Unless Rudd reverses Howards appication of the Immigration act towards the Social Securtity act be reversed like the very unfair I.R (work choices) law.
OZ now has significant trade lined up thanks in part to NZ worth $80B... so I am told. So any cost to Australia is not significant anyway.
Mr Rudd has proven to be the best PM OZ has seen for over a decade, but if he wont help the Kiwi who will??..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.131.30.172 (talk) 11:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immigration act used illegally in denial of benefits to Kiwis. 

message: Is it me...or did that table move down to external links...If its not just me, can someone please fix it. Edit: Never mind... fixed it... at some point, someone changed the end of the table from |} to |-114.77.223.5 (talk) 11:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countries of birth table 

message: "Peter McDonald claims that "it is demographic nonsense to believe that immigration can help to keep our population young."
And Peter McDonald is right.
Why do some people still cling to the absurd argument that immigration can solve the ageing population problem?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.155.56.95 (talk) 22:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immigration and the ageing population 

message: In the opening paragraphs, there are two sentences referring to "Wolds Agencies" seem to be little better than adverts - the "reference" is simply a link to their homepage.  I propose simply removing the two sentences entirely.  Mark Suter (talk) 13:03, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who are Wolds Agencies?  Why are they so prominently mentioned? 

message: I moderate the Culture Victoria website and have added an external link to stories,images and video about immigration to Australia.Eleworth (talk) 05:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  New External Link added 

message: I check pages listed in :Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of :Immigration to Australia's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "abs34120_2005":
From Demographics of Australia:  (table 6.6)
From Culture of Australia:  (table 6.6)
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 14:49, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned references in [[:Immigration to Australia]] 

message: The statement that aboriginal Australians (or Americans) were the first migrants is silly, as it negates the concept of indigenous people and has misleading implications (We are all Africans; Everyone is an immigrant; Aboriginal societies have lived for 50000 years without cultural change). This politically charged trope has frequently and unhelpfully been used in support of, or against, multiculturalism, immigration, land-rights, or special recognition of aboriginal peoples. The problem is the vast difference in the time scale of human genetic ancestry and that of social history. Humans first arrived in Australia some time before 40000 years ago and genes from these original migrants are prominent in the ancestry of Aboriginal Australians. That, however, does not make living Aboriginal people migrants. No culture on earth has survived over such a period and those ancient societies would have been as foreign to the Eora people around Botany Bay in 1770 as were Cook's crew. The early archeological record is sparse, particularly in cultural artefacts but there is abundant evidence of cultural change over the last 5000 years, during which there was also contact and interbreeding between Asian and aboriginal people. Even this recent time-frame encompasses the entirety of all written history - and predates such concepts as Europe, Asia, America or Africa. Aboriginal societies are culturally diverse but, to my knowledge, Aboriginal oral history and traditional belief unequivocally places their origins in Australia. If Aboriginal people are migrants, or descendants of migrants, then there is no distinction between Europeans and Sumerians. The social concept of ancestors is more meaningful when it is restricted to recorded or reported history. Spookpadda (talk) 11:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Aborigines as Immigrants

message: All of the information in the policies article is duplicated elsewhere (such as Immigration to Australia#Immigration and Australian politics and White Australia policy). I don't see that there is enough content, which isn't notable on it's own (White Australia Policy), to warrant an article to itself. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge with [[Australian immigration policies]] 

message: I wrote this text in this article:
________________________________________
==== Recent concerns about New Zealanders taking Australian jobs ====
Bob Birrell, an academic at Monash University, wrote in a 2013 article entitled "Tougher policy needed for New Zealanders wanting to work in Australia" that:
"During the 1990s, the Australian government sought to better target its migration program to skills needed in Australia. The resulting tight arrangements contrasted with the freedom of New Zealand citizens, regardless of age or skills, to move to Australia. Also, by this time about a third of the New Zealand citizens arriving in Australia were from third world countries who had gained New Zealand citizenship after the required three years of residence (now five years). As the New Zealand migration rules were less strict than those applying in Australia it was thought that this was a form of "back door" entry.
The changes to the Trans-Tasman rules in 2001 reflected these concerns. The Australian government’s expectation was that the new rules would deter movement on the part of New Zealand citizens who could not meet the requirements for permanent skilled migration.
Few New Zealand citizens arriving since 2001 have accessed this permanent residence pathway. The changes have also not deterred New Zealand citizens (including those from third world countries) from moving to Australia. Their numbers continue to increase. New Zealand citizens are adding about a net 27,000 to the number of Australian residents each year – more than any other country.
The reason is that the gap in GDP per capita in Australia and New Zealand is growing and is currently over 20%. New Zealanders will keep on coming while this gap persists.
Successive Australian governments have continued to better target the migration program to skills needed in Australia. The emphasis now is on employer sponsorship – on the grounds the employers are the best judge of the skills needed. The unregulated New Zealand flow is leaving a gaping hole in these efforts."http://theconversation.com/tougher-policy-needed-for-new-zealanders-wanting-to-work-in-australia-12007
________________________________________
and Nick_D removed it saying “Birrell is qualified to have views on this topic, but he's unusually unkeen on migration among Australian demographers”
There is no undue weight, because the only thing that text is doing is quoting Bob Birrell, it is not making any conclusion from that quote, and the text would be very useful to readers of this page, especially due to the reference, because when readers click on the reference to Bob Birrell's article they can see the sources that he uses.
I think that with the removal of this information the only consequence that occurs is that readers have less access to information about the opposing views to immigration. It would be perfectly appropriate for the government that wants to bring as many immigrants as possible.  So I think that following Nick_D's advice would only serve to promote the interests of the government. Nick_D also opposed to a well-sourced text on the anti-immigration sentiment in Australia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australia#Can_this_be_said_in_this_wikipedia_article.3F
:::It should be deleted. The section is a) future oriented (" New Zealanders will keep on coming ") such that it violates the Wiki rule against crystal balls and b) is poorly sourced ("it was thought that..." means who???) and c) is heavily loaded with nativism ("The unregulated New Zealand flow is leaving a gaping hole in these efforts."  ) Rjensen (talk) 10:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, quotes should be exempt from these rules, I guess there are already many quotes in wikipedia that are future oriented. A quote is what somebody says, that person may say future oriented things. But I imagine that all the criticisms of this text are directed to the fact that the ideas presented in it are being given too much importance and the opposing ideas not. Well, first, I have not found the opposite view on the Internet, so I can not write it here, if you know it then enter it here. Second, if you do not have sources that tell the contrary opinion then we could put a notice in the main article near the text so if any reader knows these sources then that reader could add them here. That may be what it should have been right for Nick-D to have done (to put a notice requesting additional sources) rather than removing the entire text. Third, I will think better if making this quote shorter is a good idea. Finally, I guess you can not deny that this text provides some more useful information that was not present in the article before, right?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abcdudtc (talk • contribs) 13:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consensus is requested on the deletion of a text titled “Recent concerns about New Zealanders taking Australian jobs” 

message: Bob Birrell, an academic at Monash University, wrote in a 2013 article entitled "Tougher policy needed for New Zealanders wanting to work in Australia" that:
"During the 1990s, the Australian government sought to better target its migration program to skills needed in Australia. The resulting tight arrangements contrasted with the freedom of New Zealand citizens, regardless of age or skills, to move to Australia. Also, by this time about a third of the New Zealand citizens arriving in Australia were from third world countries who had gained New Zealand citizenship after the required three years of residence (now five years). As the New Zealand migration rules were less strict than those applying in Australia it was thought that this was a form of "back door" entry.
The changes to the Trans-Tasman rules in 2001 reflected these concerns. The Australian government’s expectation was that the new rules would deter movement on the part of New Zealand citizens who could not meet the requirements for permanent skilled migration.
Few New Zealand citizens arriving since 2001 have accessed this permanent residence pathway. The changes have also not deterred New Zealand citizens (including those from third world countries) from moving to Australia. Their numbers continue to increase. New Zealand citizens are adding about a net 27,000 to the number of Australian residents each year – more than any other country.
The reason is that the gap in GDP per capita in Australia and New Zealand is growing and is currently over 20%. New Zealanders will keep on coming while this gap persists.
Successive Australian governments have continued to better target the migration program to skills needed in Australia. The emphasis now is on employer sponsorship – on the grounds the employers are the best judge of the skills needed. The unregulated New Zealand flow is leaving a gaping hole in these efforts."http://theconversation.com/tougher-policy-needed-for-new-zealanders-wanting-to-work-in-australia-12007
________________________________________
and Nick_D removed it saying “Birrell is qualified to have views on this topic, but he's unusually unkeen on migration among Australian demographers”
There is no undue weight, because the only thing that text is doing is quoting Bob Birrell, it is not making any conclusion from that quote, and the text would be very useful to readers of this page, especially due to the reference, because when readers click on the reference to Bob Birrell's article they can see the sources that he uses.
I think that with the removal of this information the only consequence that occurs is that readers have less access to information about the opposing views to immigration. It would be perfectly appropriate for the government that wants to bring as many immigrants as possible.  So I think that following Nick_D's advice would only serve to promote the interests of the government. Nick_D also opposed to a well-sourced text on the anti-immigration sentiment in Australia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australia#Can_this_be_said_in_this_wikipedia_article.3F
:::It should be deleted. The section is a) future oriented (" New Zealanders will keep on coming ") such that it violates the Wiki rule against crystal balls and b) is poorly sourced ("it was thought that..." means who???) and c) is heavily loaded with nativism ("The unregulated New Zealand flow is leaving a gaping hole in these efforts."  ) Rjensen (talk) 10:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, quotes should be exempt from these rules, I guess there are already many quotes in wikipedia that are future oriented. A quote is what somebody says, that person may say future oriented things. But I imagine that all the criticisms of this text are directed to the fact that the ideas presented in it are being given too much importance and the opposing ideas not. Well, first, I have not found the opposite view on the Internet, so I can not write it here, if you know it then enter it here. Second, if you do not have sources that tell the contrary opinion then we could put a notice in the main article near the text so if any reader knows these sources then that reader could add them here. That may be what it should have been right for Nick-D to have done (to put a notice requesting additional sources) rather than removing the entire text. Third, I will think better if making this quote shorter is a good idea. Finally, I guess you can not deny that this text provides some more useful information that was not present in the article before, right?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abcdudtc (talk • contribs) 13:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent concerns about New Zealanders taking Australian jobs 

message: The highest number of settlers to arrive in any one year since World War II was 185,099 in 1969–70. The lowest number in any one year was 52,752 in 1975–76.
Hmmm, I wonder if this is accurate?. I believe in 2008-2009 the number of arrivals may have exceeded 185K.Inchiquin (talk) 19:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  1969-70 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110606002958/http://www.optimumpopulation.org/opt.sustainable.numbers.html to http://www.optimumpopulation.org/opt.sustainable.numbers.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This article makes far too much reference to newspaper and television reports. This is acceptable in regard to public opinion on the topic but not for the facts themselves. I recognise that recent data seems hard to come by but this reliance on low quality sources makes the article unscholarly. 124.177.15.245 (talk) 18:54, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quality of Sources 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Am I reading the article correctly that there are no immigrant visas for people who are simply poor and want to move to Australia for better opportunities? -- Beland (talk) 20:55, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economic migrants