Template talk:United Kingdom constitutional formation

message: This didnt essentially change the title of the United Kingdom as it remained The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland until the Anglo-Irish Treaty. I understand the importance of it in terms of dividing Ireland into North and South but is it important enough to be in this template? --Horses In The Sky 12:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1920 Government of Ireland Act

message: Formation of the United Kingdom 
  Statute of Rhuddlan (1284)
  Laws in Wales Acts (1535–42)
  Union of the Crowns (1603)
  Acts of Union (1707)
  Act of Union (1801)
  Government of Ireland Act (1920)
  Anglo–Irish Treaty (1921)
  Royal & Parliamentary Titles Act (1927)
  De-annexation (1955)
I think the de-annexation of England and Wales (1955) must be added to the template. How do you think about it? --yes0song 14:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would have to disagree.  First and foremost there doesn't appear to ba an article to link to.  Secondly this template relates to the [b]Formation[/b] of the UK.  While an important constitutional step for Wales this was not an event in the formation of the UK.  Yorkshire Phoenix   14:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would also have to disagree with its inclusion on the grounds aforesaid. Jhamez84 23:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

text: I got the date "1955" from History of Wales#The Twentieth Century. ― 韓斌/Yes0song (談笑 筆跡 다지모) 14:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deannexation of England and Wales (1955) 

message: Wales did not play any part in forming the UK - the earliest signs of which can be traced no earlier than the Union of Crowns between Scotland and England. To say otherwise goes against the grain of both academic and lay thought on the matter. If the annexation of Wales into England is to be included then so should the annexation of the Northern Isles by Scotland, the Lordship of the Isles by Scotland, the creation and abolition of the Cornish Stannary Parliament,  Northumbria officially becoming part of England under the Treaty of York etc etc. Seeing as the inclusion of Statute of Rhuddlan would mean the inclusion of the treaties which formed/were relevant only to the nations which THEN went on to form the UK you would also have to go back to Dal Riata and Pictavia which merged to form Scotland as well as the Heptarchy which preceeded the single Kingdom of England and so on, so forth. The two primary and only independent participants in the formation of the UK were England and Scotland - there is absolutely no controversy or ambiguity over this - and if earlier treaties specific to internal politics of either of those nations are to be included in the template then there are myriad others beyond these Anglo-Welsh ones which should also be included and this would simply be ridiculous. The only legitimate inclusion of Wales in the template would be under mention of its de-annexation from England in 1955 as shown in a template at the bottom of the talk page of the template as this was, unlike Rhuddlan, relevant to and occurred within the UK. (pasted from ealrier post on a seperate talk page) siarach  11:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: disk erro 14.243.11.230 (talk) 08:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

text: And neither of the treaties you wish to add relating to Wales were legislative acts which formed the UK. Wales should certainly be mentioned with regard to its de-Annexation but having its annexation listed is precisely akin to listing to formation of Scotland from Dal Riata and Pictavia or England from the preceeding Heptarchy of English Kingdoms. While im dubious about the inclusion of the specific Anglo-Irish treaties pre Union of Crowns as well Ireland at least was a technically seperate entity to England and Scotland while Wales simply was not. As it stands this template is misnamed - as it lists acts,treaties etc which led to the formation of the England which went on to form the union with Scotland and THEN lists the acts which genuinely formed the UK. The fact that Wales has now been de-annexed and holds some sort of status as a nation within the UK equal to that of Scotland and England can in no way retrospectively confer nation status upon it pre-Union. Wales entered the union much as Yorkshire or Wessex or the Hebrides; a mere territory within a nation. siarach 10:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

text: What you want is a template for the history of the home nations within the British Isles (or something along those lines) - not one for the formation of the UK as this is not something which can be pinpointed any earlier than the union of crowns in 1603. ATM this template is very misleading,anglocentric/cymrocentric and contains several treaties without direct relevance with regard to the formation of the United Kingdom. siarach 17:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the Welsh ones as these where part of the formation of the Kingdom of England and not the UK. --Barry  talk 00:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly so although i fear we may need to resort to Wikipedia:Mediation Committee to solve the dispute over the inclusion of treaties relevant only to England and not Great Britain/United Kingdom. siarach 04:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If we are removing the personal unions involving Ireland and Wales, then we must remove that of Scotland too: only the political unions formed the UK, not the personal ones. --Mais oui! 04:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: RE Mas oui! - then so be it. It makes far more sense to start with 1707 - which saw the merging of the only two vaguely sovereign states in the British isles - than it does to start with the irrelevant treaties which formalised annexation of Wales to England. Even the union of Ireland, a puppet state/colony under English rule for centuries, is justifiable given its nominally/technically independent status prior to 1801 whereas the inclusion of Wales - at the time basically a part of England conquered centuries before any concept of a UK - simply cannot be justified within a template which claims to show the treaties which led directly to the formation of the United Kingdom. siarach 04:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I tend to agree.  The "union" of England and Wales (or whatever you call it) was not of the same ilk (whatever an ilk is) as that of England and Scotland, as evinced by the fact that England was still referred to as "England" afterwards and did not become "Britain" or even "England and Wales" until much later. Deb 17:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: England annexing Wales has nothing to do with the formation of the UK it was mearly the Kingdom of England gaining territory you may as well include every single piece of legislation and treaties that added terriory to the England, Scotland Wales and Ireland, the only thing that formed the UK was the Act of Union 1707 --Barry  talk 19:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: How about "Personal and legislative unions of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom". Rationale: "home nations" is primarily used in a sporting context, and, to my ears at least, just sounds a bit informal, unacademic, and even sloppy. Also, there are two very different types of union being shown here: monarchs taking rule over more than one country: Rhuddlan, Crown of Ireland Act and Union of the Crowns; and the uniting (or separation) of legislatures/legislature-making authority: the rest. The 1927 Act is neither of those, but I can understand why it is there. --Mais oui! 07:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: England and Wales

message: Copied from my talk pageThis template is not a mini list of acts of the English Parliament please stop making it as such thanks. --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 20:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: All I did was edit the appearance of the template to fit that of Parliamentary Acts.  I did not alter the constitution of the template, by adding or subtracting any link.  The topics are not universal in scope, but dated to a certain time and procession of events in the government.  It is proper to display the Acts of Parliament in the way Parliament would, to accurately represent what they had done.  This leaves no room for spin, but it does give depth to the issue.  Neustriano 20:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes but the Parliamentary Acts you choose where those of the Parliament of England hense the wording Union with Scotland Act 1706 this is anglo-centric and totally ignores the fact that the that the Parliament of Scotland also passed the act. --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 20:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: spam 14.243.11.230 (talk) 08:11, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

text: The old wording was fine there was no need to change it to fit the list of parliamentary acts of the Parliament of England. --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 21:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

text: That was an act of the English Parliament it is always referred to as the Union of the Crowns and should be named as such in the template --Barryob  Vigeur de dessus 21:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neustrianos edits 

message: ::(cont.) A fair and level-headed man as always, Beano.
::I just seen that the Harp is used for the Lordship of Ireland. I think that I did this, but this is scatty - the Harp is recorded as the arms of the "King of Ireland" ("le Roi d'Irlande") in 1280, but the 1542 act is affects the Lordship of Ireland. A commission by Edward IV found "Azure, three crowns Or, bordure Argent" (the modern-day arms of Munster with a white border) to be the arms of the Lordship. I'll change this. --sony-youthpléigh 10:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  (Lordship of Ireland flag) 

message: I've replaced the flag of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland with the Flag of Northern Ireland for the Government of Ireland Act. Since no new state was created or merged with the UK, I lean towards the opinion that only the UK flag should be shown (as with the Royal & Parliamentary Titles Act). The reason for changing this to the Northern Ireland flag is because the major consequence of the 1920 act was the creation of Northern Ireland. It's consequence in the south were overtaken by the Anglo–Irish Treaty. --sony-youthpléigh 11:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Government of Ireland Act 

message: If the template includes the Government of Ireland Act and the Royal & Parliamentary Titles Act then should it not also include the following?
* Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973
* Government of Wales Act 1998
* Scotland Act 1998
* Northern Ireland Act 1998
Comments? Also the title is a little off (and long-winded) at present IMHO. --sony-youthpléigh 11:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would support inclusion of the devoultion acts and re-working of the title especially since the UK was only formed in 1707 something like :Template:Irish constitutions would be good. --Barryob  (Contribs) (Talk) 13:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm actually starting to think it's getting a bit unwieldy with all these new ones. Also, the acts after 1801 don't actually relate to the formation of the United Kingdom (with the possible exception of the Government of Ireland Act), but refer more to its evolution or changes to its constitution. Would it be worth having a second template dealing with this? beano (talk) 13:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devolution and title 

message: I added Laudabiliter (an obvious oversight). Choice of the Harp as symbol is because this was recorded as the arms of the Kings of Ireland. --sony-youthpléigh 12:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Laudabiliter 

message: After much debate, the editors of the United Kingdom article seem to have settled on 1707 as being the foundation of the state (I note with concern though that this date lacks any external referencing, per official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY).
But this article - List of countries by formation dates - claims that the UK was actually founded in 1603 (again, completely unreferenced). Both articles cannot be correct, so which is it? Please come to the party armed with some proper external refs, because I am not sure if we can stomach yet another verbally diarrhetic Talk page splurge with largely consists of ad hominem attacks and statements of totally unsourced opinion. --Mais oui! (talk) 23:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of formation of the United Kingdom? 

message: This template is obviously mis-titled given that few of the laws it lists are in fact "personal [or] legislative unions of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom". Even if a better title could be found, I'm still not sure what the logic of including either the Statute of Westminster 1931 or the Republic of Ireland Act 1948. Neither of these Acts affected, in any way, the Constitutional position of the UK, but rather those of Commonwealth realms. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 17:32, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies for neglecting to reply here earlier. I've replied on the TfD page. --RA (talk) 00:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with this template 

message: I have removed the badge depicting England, Scotland and Ireland. It is inappropriate to include articles on Wales prior to its annexation to the Kingdom of England, without referencing its emblem. Daicaregos (talk) 09:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If I add some Leeks will it be okay then? Sodacan (talk) 09:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If you think that would be appropriate. Doesn't the image denotes floral emblems? The image depicts emblems of the countries comprising the UK. Wales should be represented. Daicaregos (talk) 09:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Traditionally not, you know the usually 'Wales is not a Kingdom but Principality' line. But I would be very happy to make another which is representative of all the countries. Sodacan (talk) 10:01, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do. By the way, Wales is a country, not a principality. Was your contention that as 'Wales is not a Kingdom but Principality' it did not 'deserve' to be represented?  Daicaregos (talk) 11:34, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nooooo, I was quoting others. I love Wales! and will be glad to create an image which incorporate all the countries. The existing image is based on a traditional design which has been in used by the British Monarchy since 1603, it certainly does not represent the current situation. Sodacan (talk) 12:01, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, me too. The traditional image to which you refer would be appropriate to depict events involving the creation of the UK. i.e. that it was formed by the kingdoms of England and Scotland. But some of the uses of this template relate to events prior to Wales' annexation (e.g. the Statute of Rhuddlan, 1284) when Wales existed in its own right, albeit under the control of the king of England. And some relate to the countries as they exist today. Few would contend that Wales is part of England now and not a country itself. I look forward to seeing your work. Thanks, Daicaregos (talk) 12:39, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

text: Nope, just so much has been deleted, I guessed it was alright. Sodacan (talk) 10:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The template is entitled "Documents relevant to personal and legislative unions of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom". As Wales is one of the countries that constitutes the United Kingdom, it should be included when those countries are depicted. Daicaregos (talk) 10:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: May I be so bold as to suggest drawing and uploading something like the emblems on :File:Coronation Crown 1953 reverse.jpg and/or :File:English Sixpence 1958.jpg?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.102.54 (talk) 15:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Wales is not one of the emblems depicted on :File:Coronation Crown 1953 reverse.jpg. It is included on the :File:English Sixpence 1958.jpg though. Daicaregos (talk) 15:27, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The leek is on the bottom of the Crown coin, but whichever, I just thought they might help.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.102.54 (talk) 15:35, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake. I was looking only at the shields. Sorry. Daicaregos (talk) 15:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Badge 

message: Something about this template as of 2019-08-07 is breaking Constitution of the United Kingdom.  It appears that the template somehow begins its right-side box without ending it, causing the entirety of the Constitution of the United Kingdom article to stay within this box instead. --Closeapple (talk) 02:54, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Broken formatting