Talk:Sholem Schwarzbard

message: Parts read like a poor translation by a non-native speaker, there are references to insufficiently explained people and events, the order is confused, there are inconsistencies even in the spelling of his pen name ... a travesty of an 'encyclopaedia' article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.153.6 (talk) 16:43, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dreadfully poorly written 

message: We should let the User IP edits stand regarding this issue, as they seem more accurate. Ostap 19:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Currently on the articles it has "a Paris boulevarde". 
IP has rue Racine
The Ukrainian government portal has rue Racine
The edits currently are not inaccurate however IP is more specific, but does the street matter? Does rue Racine have any meaning to anyone in the Anglo speaking world? 
I agree that IP's edits here are more specific. Bandurist 20:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2) Paris location of assassination. 

message: I feel that this information is relevant for a number of reasons. It sheds light on the man and his associations. If his brother was deported from France for having Communist leanings and being an active communist it suggests certain conclussions. 
a) That his brother may also be a Communist
b) That his brother may hide his Communist sympathies in order to not be deported as well.
What do you think? Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say it should be included under the Soviet agent theory as evidence. Ostap 19:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3) Irrelevancy of his brother being deported. 

message: The fact that he crossed the border illegally (i.e. without passport or visa has paricular connotations. 
a) He had no money to buy the required  documents
b) He was escaping repurcussions in Russia
c) He (as an Anarchist had no respect for the government and did what ever he pleased.
If we look at b) What was he escaping from in Russia. 1905 was a difficult year. A year of Revolution. Anybody involved in the massive srtikes and revolts initially got the death sentence. Such writers as Hnat Khotkevych didn't participate in any strikes but as a secretary of the railwayworker's Union he was warned to leave the country which he did fleeing to Lviv in Austria-Hungary. 1905 was also the year that the Blacvk hundreds were particularly active and the call by some Russian circles "Beat the jews and Save Russia" went out and a series of massive pogroms were launched. Could this be a reason fr him crossing the border?Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see why "illegally" should be included, but perhaps to compromise with the IP it should be written in a different way. Ostap 19:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Petlura also escaped from Poland to Hungary and then Vienana in 1923 illegally. There was speculation that the Poles were about to cave in to the demands of the Bolsheviks and hand him over. However they write specifically that he escaped. He may have escaped with the help of the Poles in order to release pressure on them from the Bolshevyuks. Anyway, how do you sufggest rephrasing it.Bandurist 20:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd let the IP propose a different way, he is the one who actually took issue with it.  I say include it as it is, but he is obviously against it.  If he has an idea on how to make it less inflammatory, he can say.  I really don't know how to rephrase it. Ostap 20:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  4) Inflammatory nature of his 'illegally' crossing the border to Rumania. 

message: Could this be a reason for him fleeing Russia in 1905? Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  5) Schwartzbard's role in organizing Jewish self-defence in 1905. 

message: The Anarchist Encyclopedia  herehas many factual eras. Small but neumerous starting from it stating that Izmail is in Moldova when it in fact is in Ukraine. It mentions his arrests and deportations and mentions him joining the Bolshevik army in Odessa in 1917 and that he was active in Communist groups. It also mentions the lobbying group of publicly recognized personalities, such as Henri Bergson, Romain Rolland, Albert Einstein, & Alexander Kerensky volunteered to testify on Shalom Schwarzbard's behalf. It also states that "Torres had joined the French Communist Party.
The Institute for Jewish research here is more scholarly and to me sounds more credible and less POV. Here it gives much more information and it seems to be more accurate.
Here it states "He travelled through Lemberg (Lwów, now L'viv, Ukraine), Budapest, Vienna, Italy," The Lviv (ah notice L'viv) connection has been missed totally in the article
In 1917 Shalom Schwarzbard returned to Russia and joined the Red Guard in Odessa. 
This bit is well crafted in a NPOV manner: During the civil war of 1918-1920, while Ukrainian forces defended national independence of the Ukraine against the Bolshevik armies and Polish territorial claims, chaos and lawlessness were rampant in the Ukraine. The pogroms that took place in the Ukraine during this time shocked the public with their brutality and and the number of their victims. According to conservative estimates 50,000 Jews fell victim to these massacres.
Also
Victims and their relatives, as well as public figures concerned with this wave of violence held Symon Petliura responsible for the atrocities committed in the Ukraine. A Ukrainian nationalist and journalist, Symon Petliura, became Minister of War (holovny ataman) in the Ukrainian Central Rada, and later President of the Directorate. Although the central Ukrainian government functioned under conditions of civil war, in the eyes of the victims of the pogroms and their relatives, Symon Petliura did little to stop the pogroms. As the commander of the Ukrainian army, he was therefore perceived as the ultimate perpetrator of the atrocities. 
It sounds very similar to the way some Ukrainian articles are crafted about various sensitive areas.
Once again well crafted:
Both Shalom Schwarzbard and Symon Petliura immediately became public symbols. While Shalom Schwarzbard was called a Jewish national hero and appeals were made to Jews all over the world to contribute financially to his defense, Symon Petliura suddenly became a martyr of the Ukrainian émigré community and his death unified the hitherto divided Ukrainian exiles. Many Ukrainian emigrés believed that Shalom Schwarzbard was a Bolshevik agent who carried out the assassination under orders from Moscow.
In the archives thuis is interesting
There are relatively few materials directly related to Shalom Schwarzbard's trial or his act. Among the exceptions are letters written by Elie Dobkovsky who participated in the trial with Shalom Schwarzbard and in his long letter tried to explain why he witnessed against him, and Shalom Schwarzbard's letters to J.M. Zalkind written from the prison. 
Why would she witness against Shwartzbard and then write a ;letter of exlanation to him?
Ukrainian weekly 
http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1996/209613.shtml
from 1926 states: According to historian Michael Palij, a GPU (Soviet secret police) agent named Mikhail Volodin came to Paris that August. Allegedly, they met and Schwartzbard began stalking the UNR leader.
Following his former ally Gen. Pilsudski's seizure of power in Poland on May 12, 1926, Petliura was warned by fellow members of the UNR government-in-exile and senior Ukrainian military officers that his life was in danger, but he ignored their advice and did not go into hiding.
According to a report in Le Figaro, on May 25, 1926, Schwartzbard was called away by a telephone call from lunch with his wife, returned and left hurriedly soon after.
At around 2 p.m., Petliura lunched alone at the restaurant Bouillon Chartier on rue Racine. At 2:15, as he was walking home, he stopped to look in a shop window at the corner of Boulevard St.-Michel.
A man approached, and called out in Ukrainian, "Are you Mr. Petliura?" Petliura turned to see Schwartzbard advancing on him. "Defend yourself, you bandit," the assassin shouted (as he recounted in his deposition to a judge), and as Petliura raised the cane in his right hand, Schwartzbard fired into him three times, exclaiming "This, for the pogroms; this for the massacres, this for the victims."
According to an eyewitness, the victim sank to the ground saying "Enough, enough, my God." The gunman fired four more shots into the prone man.
Petliura was taken to the Hopital de la Charité on rue Jacob, where he died about 20 minutes later, at the age of 47.
::The Institute for Jewish research gives a very good summary.  That should definately be included.  Very well done getting these good sources.   I think you should go ahead and put them in the article. Ostap 04:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: 800px
#Please take a look at the writing on the stele. It say that when Shalom was two he experienced the first pogrom that took place in Ukraine. Now, Shalom was born in 1886 which implies that the first pogrom that he experienced was in 1888. I have not find any existing evidence that country of Ukraine existed or even mentioned nowhere close to that date. There was a territory of Little Russia of the Russian Empire, which, probably, the plate implies, yet it explicitly uses term Ukraine. Yes there is an association with a modern country, but in that case we may as well consider the Roman Empire as Italy or the Mongol Empire as Russia or China. What is the purpose of that mistake???
# The next paragraph implies that the Ukrainian instigated riots against Russian Jews forced him out of Ukraine. It also explicitly accuses Petliura of murdering Jews.
# In the third paragraph has name of Petliura misspelled, stating that until 1925 Shalom never knew that Petliura lived in Paris since 1924. Later the paragraph states that the world public opinion considers him a hero. Now my question, is that with consideration of the Ukrainian diaspora? How is that a world public opinion?
Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 02:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Cheesy, isn't it?..--Galassi (talk) 02:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps. And in Ukraine, Petlura and Bandera are national heroes. But this is not a Wikipedia issue. Memorial plates are not part of Wikipedia and are not subject to NPOV etc. BorisG (talk) 09:08, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Memorial grave plate picture 

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