Talk:Tsakonian language

message: Tsakonian has "Albanian loanwords"---interesting. I want to read more about this. Decius 06:42, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of them are shepherding terms, I believe.  There is a quote from Pernot that goes something like "The Albanian's influence ends at the shepherd's door," i.e. the importation of vocabulary is limited to certain occupational terminology.  There were villages in the area that were settled by Albanian shepherds, with whom the Tsakonians presumably had contact regarding sheep-related matters. --Jpbrenna 02:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For the record: that was a personal communication from Costakis to me, in 1996. Opoudjis (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: # The most common name for this language in English is Tsakonian. Tsakonic is much less common, and this page should be moved back to where it was when I started it almost two years ago (my very first Wikipedia edit!), with this page redirecting, instead of the other way around.  The present situation is like having the Greek language article at "Hellenic tongue."  Sure, it's a much better literal translation of the Greek term, but it would strike an English speaker as rather odd.
# The description of Tsakonic as a "Greek dialect" is incorrect (unless you take the minority position; see #4 below).  While that is the correct name for it in Greek, and many Greeks think of it as being a dialect, it is actually considered a separate but related language in dialect continuum with Greek, like Flemish with Dutch, or the closely related Spanish and Portuguese. (See Ausbausprache - Abstandsprache - Dachsprache). There are actually three principal dialects of Tsakonian itself, although one (Propontic Tsakonian) is extinct and it seems that one of the other two has all but disappeared.  Exact figures are hard to come by, but I believe that Prof. Costakis latest surveys have found there to be 2-5,000 true full native speakers, and many tens of thousands of secondary or tertiary speakers.  That contrasts to an estimated 250,000 speakers a century ago.  (If we were doing Babel for Tsakonian, we would have lots of TS-1, TS-2 and TS-3's, but relatively few TS-N's.)  I would have to check with my friend Dr. Nicholas about this because it may quaiify as Wikipedia:No original research, but I think that the real "Tsaconic dialect" is not the Tsakonian language itself, but the speech of the thousands of Peloponnesians whose parents or grandparents spoke Tsakonian and whose descendants speak a Tsakonian-flavored dialect of Standard Modern Greek.
#There is no bibliography here.  I thought that the original article had a brief one with Pernot and Costakis' works mentioned. I actually have a copy of Syntomi Grammatiki tis Tsakonikis Dialektou sitting on my shelf here, so I'll put that in right away and add the others later.
#Tsakonian is not uncontroversial, and we should note that.  While the current consensus seems to be that it is a Hellenic language, there are some scholars around who dispute that classification.  Again, while the consensus is that it is Doric-derived with a heavy Attic/Koine adstrate (and a little Albanian, Slavic and Turkish), scholars can be found to dispute this as well.  Obviously, if you think that the extent of Doricisms to be found is overstated, you tend to lean less toward it being a separate language, and more toward it being just a dialect of Modern Greek.
--Jpbrenna 16:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Candidacy for page move and other issues 

message: #My addition claiming that Tsakonians traditionally did not call themselves Tskanones - it was in one of Dr. Nicholas's papers, with appropriate citation from his source, but I need to dig it up.
#It says Tsakonian is officially classified as a dialect.  Is this the official position of the Greek government?  Who makes this determination, the Vouli or the Ministry of Education or what?  I don't dispute the fact that the Greek government considers it a dialect - I'd just like to know the who, what, when, where and how if possible, because I'm curious.--Jpbrenna 19:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations needed 

message: I think the title of this page is misleading since it advocates a minority position. Tsakonian is a variety of the Greek language, not a separate language. I think the page should be renamed to Tsakonian, Tsakonian Greek, Tsakonian dialect, Tsakonian (Greek) or another possible variation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Demonax (talk • contribs) 
:Hi Demonax, thanks for your comments, and welcome. As you can see from the talkpage above, there has been quite a bit of discussion about these names. I would personally go simply for Tsakonian, in fact, but as there were several well-respected fellow editors who had different preferences, I wouldn't unilaterally force a change at this point. There are quite a number of articles in Wikipedia that have "...language" in the title without necessarily implying separate language - take it just like this: a dialect is a language too, the word in the title just serves to disambiguate from "Tsakonian people", "Tsakonian culture", or whatever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. But the current text "... is a dialect of Greek" in the lead sentence is already pretty clear, isn't it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Russian, Ukranian and Belorussian are at most 600 years old, yet we call them separate languages. This one is more than 3000 years old. YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 09:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minority position 

message: I will add the following sourced statement in the article, I welcome  any constructive suggestions : 
In reality, although it is accepted that Tsakonian Language spoken in the eastern  Peloponnese  comes from ancient Greek is not necessary koiné. Although the language resulting in almost distinction , teaching material written in Tsakonian are provided in some school of Greece.  
Reference :  Variation in modern Greek Two varieties of Greek are sufficiently different
that linguists might want to suggest that they are actually separate languages. Tsakonian (see Newton 1972b), spoken in the eastern Peloponnese, is descended from Ancient Greek but not by way of the koiné. It is reported to be dying out, but some schools in the area have acknowledged the degree of difference between it and other forms of Greek by providing teaching materials written in Tsakonian. Source : Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics.Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 152 Dodona--Burra (talk) 21:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but your sentence isn't correct English, and it makes no sense logically. What is the "although"..."although" doing there? And the "in reality"? What do you mean "not necessary"? You seem to be trying to express some logical relation between the parts of your sentence, but it just doesn't become clear what that relation is. I would gladly help you rewrite this in correct English, but I can't figure what exactly you mean. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

text: Please feel free of any change, now i think the meaning is clear.Dodona--Burra (talk) 10:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll put in a sentence about the teaching materials, okay. But you need to tell me the author of the article you're quoting. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor add

message: What calls itself "Tsakonian (IPA)" in the examples is clearly not using the International Phonetic Alphabet as all the characters are from the Greek alphabet.  Is it supposed to be phonetic in some other sense?--Rumping (talk) 22:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is the Costakian notation. I will change the column heading.--Jpbrenna (talk) 22:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples IPA

message: can be found here. It may be useful. [N.P. 188.4.71.43 (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: some audio material

message: Is Maniot really closest to Tsakonian?  Rem. from lead until we have a source.  — kwami (talk) 03:28, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maniot 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Can you please add the full citation? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:57, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: --Calthinus (talk) 05:48, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you! Funny enough, on Friday I accidentally downloaded the PDF from here (I clicked on a Ghit and it downloaded automatically) – I suspected it's the same paper, but wasn't sure. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 06:05, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nicholas 2019