Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 10

message: Is there a reason why the page does not mention the speculated unusual sexual life of AH?  the defecation, etc..  I've seen that kinda stuff mentioned in other sources, so even if it's not correct, should there be an entry in this article mentioning the truth or falsehood of this? rakkar 20:37, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read various theories that he was asexual (or even homosexual) but these all seem to be opinions and not treated as being serious by historians either. chowells 14:56, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

text: * But is it actually a widespread tail? I've never heard it before. At the moment my opinion is that adding it is not particulary encyclopaedic and runs the risk of giving and giving unnecesscary attention to those that make such things up.  chowells 15:17, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sexuality

message: I have removed the following from the article:
Due to his occult interests, it has been speculated that Hitler chose April 30 because of its importance as a Satanic holiday.
In the edit summary I said I'd move it to the trivia section, put decided it was too weak. There are so many wildly speculative and conflated rumours about AH that some picking and choosing is inevitable. There is zero documented support that AH practiced any from of religion as an adult (incuding ritual satanism), much less chose his death date to coincide with a satanic holiday. The timing of his suicide had much more to due with Red Army shock troops being only dozens of metres away and were expected to be knocking on the bunker's doors (so to speak) within hours. Wyss 20:27, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so sure you haven't taken whatever you may have heard on the History Channel out of context and with all due respect, your notions of trust have nothing to do with it. Lots of nutty speculations have been made about AH, in print and on TV. This is unsupported and would require multiple secondary cites of primary sources for inclusion in this article. Wyss 00:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have seen said History Channel episode. The narrators themselves admit that this is just pure speculation. In reality, Hitler wanted to live until May 5 and die on the same day Napoleon did; he checked out on April 30 after he learned the Russians were too close. This is detailed in The Bunker and several other more reliable sources than sensationalistic tv documentaties. Also, Walpurgis Night - the holiday the History Channel refers by name to - is hardly a "Satanic holiday." --L. 16:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Satanic occult and suicide date

message: Is there an error with the quote by his sister?
Shouldn't it be became instead of become or did she just say it grammatically wrong?
"...if he'd [had] ...become..." not became. It's correct. Wyss 00:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy 

message: Hi, I have just now included  material . I agree with a lot you say Wyss, but  I hope that that which you analyse will allow for the parallel involvement of the Church . I have tried not to over-step the historical mark , and very much hope you will support the inclusions . I do not in any way dispute your analysis of heavy industry-right wing connivance, as you know . I have simply not had the time to join further with you in that . 
I am planning to include  material elsewhere to show just how un-exceptional Hitler's anti-semitism was , as well as his sense of germanity and its special nature . Thanks Famekeeper 07:50, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not so sure the anti-semitisim was unexpected- it was part of the culture already. What was not expected was the industrial genocide. Wyss 16:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: FK edits

message: Late in World War One, while serving with the occupation forces in northern France, Hitler apparently begot a son on a young French woman.  The son had an undistinguished life, working as a mail carrier, as I recall.  He was fifty-seven years old when the world discovered who his father was.  His wife left him.  It may take some time for me to track down the published reports on the subject.  Anyone else who wants to, feel free.J S Ayer
That's an old, untrue rumour. It's also been discussed previously on this talk page. Wyss 16:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hitler's Illegitimate Son 

message: This article is linked to the category "German painters" - I removed but it was restored. I will let it stand for now, but it's still odd:
*Hitler numbered among Albrecht Dürer and Caspar David Friedrich etc. is quite odd - they are all famous for their paintings, while Hitler isn't
*Hitler never was a real painter - he wanted to be one but was rejected at the academy twice - what he really painted, actually drew was picture postcards - is anyone fond of drawing a painter? I am fond of this too - am I a painter? I don't think so.
*The issue of whether he was German: I don't want to draw distinct lines between Austria and Germany during that time, but it's cute that I had some time ago some dispute about whether to include Mozart in a listing of German composers. Why is it that no one disputes Hitler's Germanness here, especially since his post card drawing times were in his Vienna years. 
Please consider this.
Str1977 22:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you. I find it odd to have him in that category, listed among all the "real" painters. He would never have been in that category (or mentioned at all in wikipedia, for that matter), had he not turned to politics. I feel that the painters category should be reserved for people who have an article here based on their painting merits. Shanes 22:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  That said, he painted thousands of items and sold many in the form of small paintings and postcards, some of which were produced in Munich before he enlisted in the Bavarian army. He also did some painting during the great war.  His strength was architectural subjects (although I personally agree with those who say he had real trouble with human figures). I've been told by a number of painters (privately, sometimes rather adamantly) that he did have talent. I've likely seen photographs of a few hundred of his paintings, plus a few in life.  I'd say that on balance I don't personally care at all for his work, but he did some paintings which, if I didn't know who the artist was, I guess I wouldn't mind looking at. A couple of still lifes of flowers and a few paintings of buildings come to mind. On the other hand, my great grandmother once did a rather amazing still life of apples with a landscape in the background which I would vastly prefer over anything AH ever did and she isn't mentioned in WP. Wyss 22:35, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, it's a borderline case of who to include in a category and who not. Since he did make a living as a painter for a (short) while (and is famous), it could be argued that he should be included. But that he never became even remotely notable as a painter I feel is a stronger argument for leaving him out of the category. There have been many people selling paintings in the city streets through history. Most of them, I bet, have received compliments for being talented. But a very small part of them will ever make it big enough to get a wikipedia-entry that passes VFD. Making it as a painter is hard. As Hitler himself found out. And I feel that the category should be reserved for those who did make it (before or after they died). But I'm not at all fanatic about it. Maybe it could be left for the people on Visual arts project to decide, or something. If we care enough to make a big deal out of this. Shanes 23:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I didn't use the word concern. Why did you say I have a "concern"? Why did you put it in quotes? Wyss 19:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry, I should have been clearer. With Concern I meant your passage "is unhelpful to folks who need to have sufficient background and information". I called it concern because it showed concern about another "sociopath" coming along. Because you didn't actually say concern I put it into inverted commas, but didn't think about that it could be taken as indicating a quote. Sorry. Str1977 20:19, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  A German Painter 

message: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/hitleross1.html
Be careful about taking these old OSS reports too seriously, they were the rawest sort of intelligence, replete with misinformation from sundry AH enemies (this one's even written in the first person)... like going to the circus almost every day during the summer of 1933? Wyss 05:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  bisexual Hitler loved the circus 

message: Wyss, you reverted my edit, saying 
"The road to power - Schleicher asked for lawful emergency powers, not a coup"
What is meant by coup is that parliament should be disbanded again but this time without calling new elections (at least temporarily). This would have been against the constitution which said that after the disolution there would be elections within soandsomany days. This is commonly referred to as the planned coup d'etat (Staatsstreich in German). The term is used in historiography and it was used back in the days (the Centre Party always accused Papen of such plans and they were right)
Papen proposed this coup after the second election in 32 brough no majority and plans of Nazi inclusion failed. Schleicher was with him on this, but just before the presentation of the plans how to implement this in the military field (a civil war was feared, and the Reichswehr were only 100,000 men vs. 3 million SA and I don't know how many Communist paramilitary - hence there was a conference involving military and police leaders), immediately before this Schleicher turned on Papen and opposed the plan. The military leaders followed him in this and Schleicher convinced Hindenburg to appoint him Chancellor instead of Papen. Hindenburg initially was won over for the coup but now he followed Schleicher. Schleicher tried his Querfront policy but failed. After this made proposals for the same coup himself (January 33), but Hindenburg now adamantely opposed the plans (I mean, it really does look like fooling around) and dismissed Schleicher. And the rest is history (too).
Consider this. What dost thou say now? Str1977 22:02, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to be sort of wary about using terms like that, since they frequently originate in opposition polemics meant to polarize the issues and it seems to me the Centre party was using the phrase in that way. Besides, Schleicher asked for emergency powers, not a coup d'etat, so calling it a coup would be PoV (although a logical one). We all know those people didn't trust (or were ambivalent about) democratic processes, but I think it's helpful to separate the rhetoric they used from what they in truth did. Wyss 22:20, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

text: That's the ambiguity I'm referring to. What Schleicher asked Hindenburg for was emergency powers . He also wanted to dissolve parliament (legal) and delay elections (legal) indefinitely (not legal). Whether or not some historians have used the term, I think it's rather a stretch and don't really see a need to add the interpretive spin. Wyss 22:42, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schleicher-Papen coup