Talk:Ayn Rand/Archive 2

message: About my edit of September 3, 2004.
In the documentation included with the deluxe edition of the 1988 VHS release of the re-edited We the Living (1942) films, the story of the Italian version was told with considerably more first-hand information than I have seen elsewhere. According to a letter to We the Living (1988) co-producer Duncan Scott from Massimo Ferrara-Santamaria, the producer of the 1942 films, he chose to produce We the Living after the book was suggested to him by his cousin Bruna Scalera. He hired Orio Vergani and Coreado Alvaro to write the screenplay. 
Naturally all films produced in Mussolini's Italy were subject to prior censorship, so the project documentation was submitted to the Ministry of Culture. Authorization to proceed could hardly be equated with "the endorsement of the Italian government under Benito Mussolini". Even so, authorization was refused on the grounds that the screenwriters were "old-fashioned intellectuals outside of the Fascist ideology". This alone should be enough to bury the notion that somehow this was a government project. Ferrara-Santamaria managed to pull strings with film producer Vittorio Mussolini, son of the dictator, who "convinced Minister Pavolini to authorize this film production." Perhaps Vittorio told Pavolini that it was good anti-communist propaganda, and that is how the story of the purpose of the production got started. Or perhaps someone knows of better sources for this story than second- or third-hand accounts.
Another document in the deluxe VHS edition, "A Film Discovered" further verifies the fact that We the Living (1942) was made despite resistance from the Italian government. Another screenwriter on the project, Anton Giulio Majano, said that an official from the Ministry of Culture arrived on set during the filming and announced that the film would have to be screened that night at the Ministry. As Majano remembers, "We rushed to the editing room and spent all day cutting out the dangerous scenes - all the anti-Fascist scenes - for that screening. That night it looked like an inquisition, They kept asking, 'Is that all there is? Is that It?'" 
Five or six months after the Italian release of We the Living(1942), the Fascist Party ordered the seizure of the films, and Ferrara-Santamaria was ordered stripped of his party membership, university post, and position at Scalera Films. Considering the effort and risks taken by the creators of these films, anti-totalitarian oases inside the propaganda wasteland of Fascist Italy, I would call their efforts heroic. Perhaps the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies can find a researcher to track down and tell the whole story of We the Living, the motion pictures.
I see other corrections that need to be made to the September 2, 2004 "general edit" of 83.103.230.117, but I will need time to justify them properly as this "Editing talk" does. I invite others to help. It would appear that reviser 83.103.230.117 is working a little too hard to associate Ayn Rand with ideas that can carry negative connotations. I've done my part to improve the situation in this small matter. But cumulatively, the insertion of terms like "rugged-individualism" (If Rand ever use this term, I didn't see it.) and putting "scare quotes" around "rational selfishness" and so on, serves the purpose, not to clarify who Ayn Rand was and what she thought, but to interpret Rand in a way that Rand herself would hardly recognize. There are many opportunities to make such interpretations or criticisms elsewhere and add pointers to them in the Criticism of Objectivism section on the Objectivist philosophy Wikipedia page, and so on. 
When attempting to present anyone's ideas with a neutral point of view it is a good idea to ask yourself "Would this author agree that I have presented his or her ideas accurately?" We owe that to the person and work we are presenting and we owe it to the readers of this encyclopedia. 
Blanchette 19:02, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the We the Living films 

message: I removed the term "rugged" from "rugged individualism" in two places because I have never seen Rand use this word to characterize her concept of individualism. "Rugged individualism" was the term used by Herbert Hoover to characterize his concept of a traditional American virtue. Later it was used as a term of derision by FDR and is still used with a mild sneer by the political left. To Rand, specifying the meaning of individualism by modifying it as "rugged" would be an instance of definition by non-essentials. Rand's concept of individualism emphasized the fact that values must be self-chosen by an individual human mind through a process of reason. See The Fountainhead, for example.
I fixed the sentence: She exalted the "heroic" "American values" of egoism and rugged individualism.
Those scare quotes are an exceptionally ugly way to announce that not everyone agrees with Rand's concept of what is heroic or an American value. Their use may leave the impression that Wikipedia thinks the concepts of the heroic and of American values are themselves suspect no matter how they are conceived.
I rewrote it as: She exalted what she saw as the heroic American values of egoism and individualism. 
Blanchette 18:59, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Rugged" individualism and scare quotes. 

message: An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Ayn_Rand article:
* Can link individualism: ...phy and her fiction both emphasize above all her notions of individualism, egoism, "[[Objectivist philosophy#Ethics: rational self-in... - already done
* Can link egoism: ...tion both emphasize above all her notions of individualism, egoism, "[[Objectivist philosophy#Ethics: rational self-interest|r... - already done
* Can link political views: ...rtly to avoid Soviet retaliation against her family for her political views (she assumed her name would appear in the credits of films ... (link to section)
* Can link non-fiction: ...h both her fiction  and non-fiction  works.... (link to section)
* Can link rationalism: ... day (e.g., as developed by Rudolf Carnap) and Platonic rationalism (as exhibited in the writings of Gottlob Frege and [[G.... (link to section) - This text has been edited out.
* Can link schism: ...oped once her own life was over.   In 1989, yet another schism in the movement occurred. Objectivist David Kelley wrot... (link to section)
* Can link libertarian capitalism: ...n positions - egoism in behavioral ethics and rights-based, libertarian capitalism in politics - are false. Others disapprove of her practice ... (link to section) - This text has been edited out or changed to a different wording
* Can link even worse: ...as been alleged that Rand's portrayal of her antagonists is even worse (they are predictably weak, pathetic, full of uncertainty, ... (link to section) - This text has been edited out or changed to a different wording
* Can link dating service: ...lasphere: Rand-related news, columns, member directory, and dating service... (link to section)
* Can link CD-ROM: ... Objectivism.net - Ayn Rand on CD-ROM, and good links... (link to section)
* Can link Leningrad University: ...dt2.htm Ayn Rand's College Transcript] - Analysis of Rand's Leningrad University coursework... (link to section) - This text has been edited out or changed to a different wording
* Can link feminism: ...etations of Ayn Rand] - Controversial anthology on Rand & feminism... (link to section) - This text has been edited out or changed to a different wording
:Updated the list above based on the current article text. The remaining items strike me as trivial (dating service) or even misleading (schism), so I didn't do anything to add those links. (Don't get me wrong: I think automated link suggestions is a great idea, just not some of the particular suggestions.) --RL0919 14:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The backlinks have all been done except the ones for Patrick Moore (she isn't mentioned in the article anymore) and the Clubs list. This last is a huge list of CU clubs of all varieties, none of which have links. Linking items on this type of list might not be a good idea, considering it would make the page look like a huge link farm. --RL0919 15:12, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest 12 possible wiki links and 6 possible backlinks for [[Ayn Rand]]. 

message: I'm trying to copy edit this article, and I'm finding it difficult, because it's hard to see what's being said sometimes. For example, I've just deleted the following paragraph, rather than struggle to edit it: "There are also many more complicated objections to Rand's philosophy on the basis of epistemology and metaphysics. In addition, most theistic religions object both to Rand's characterization of religion as an evil that held people back, and to Rand's moral scheme, in which selfishness is the basic virtue, and altruism is evil (it should be noted that Rand's definitions for the words "selfishness" and "altruism" is somewhat different than that used by most people.) Rand's characterization of women in several books has been a source of contention, as it is felt that women are often portrayed as secondary or adjunct to the heroic men of the stories. Finally, Rand's personal life has been the source of much controversy."
My objections: 1) There are no references and no quotes, 2) There are more complicated objections than what? 3) What does "objections . . . on the basis of epistemology and metaphysics" mean? 4) Most theistic religions?  Which ones? Which thinkers? References? Quotes? 5) Her definition of selfishness and altruism were different. In what way? Reference?  6) It is felt that women . . .  It is felt by whom? Reference. 7) Her controversial personal life -- but in what way controversial?
Much of the article is like this. Factoids are delivered but not developed; with too many generalizations. The whole article would benefit from a re-write with more scholarly citations, and lots of quotes from Rand supporters and critics. Is anyone up for it?  Slim 23:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
:I feel my tone was too harsh in the previous comment. What I meant to say is that sections of the article appear not to do Rand's ideas justice. I didn't mean to sound so critical. My apologies. Slim 03:50, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
===More Sources===
I just added a bunch of new reference sources, which future editors hopefully will be able to cite regarding any biographical controversies. (I think any detailed discussion of controvery over her ideas belongs in the Objectivist philosophy article.) Since the number of new sources is so substantial, but not a comprehensive bibliography of possible biographical sources, I wanted to be above-board about how I chose them:
*Every source I added is a primary or secondary source. I think I got every book-length biographical source, plus some major articles. I avoided tertiary sources.
*The sources all contain biographical or literary information/comment about Rand. I left sources related to her philosophy to the existing article on that subject. Some of the sources I listed also discuss her philosophy, but I did not choose them for that portion of their content.
*I did not include sources that focus on a particular novel, such as Gladstein's Atlas Shrugged: Manifesto of the Mind or Mayhew's Essays on Ayn Rand's We the Living. I assume those belong with the articles about those specific books.
*The individual citations are as complete as I could make them. For example, on the three "book" items with no ISBN numbers, it is because they don't have any. (Two were privately published, the other was published before ISBNs were standard issue.)
*The list reflects both positive and negative views of Rand's life and work.
One thing I didn't do, however, is go back and incorporate citations of the sources to back up any specific claims in the main text. I might get to that in the future, or others can take up the task.
If anyone has any questions or concerns about any of the additions, I'm happy to discuss it here. --RL0919 08:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: I just added a bunch of new reference sources, which future editors hopefully will be able to cite regarding any biographical controversies. (I think any detailed discussion of controvery over her ideas belongs in the Objectivist philosophy article.) Since the number of new sources is so substantial, but not a comprehensive bibliography of possible biographical sources, I wanted to be above-board about how I chose them:
*Every source I added is a primary or secondary source. I think I got every book-length biographical source, plus some major articles. I avoided tertiary sources.
*The sources all contain biographical or literary information/comment about Rand. I left sources related to her philosophy to the existing article on that subject. Some of the sources I listed also discuss her philosophy, but I did not choose them for that portion of their content.
*I did not include sources that focus on a particular novel, such as Gladstein's Atlas Shrugged: Manifesto of the Mind or Mayhew's Essays on Ayn Rand's We the Living. I assume those belong with the articles about those specific books.
*The individual citations are as complete as I could make them. For example, on the three "book" items with no ISBN numbers, it is because they don't have any. (Two were privately published, the other was published before ISBNs were standard issue.)
*The list reflects both positive and negative views of Rand's life and work.
One thing I didn't do, however, is go back and incorporate citations of the sources to back up any specific claims in the main text. I might get to that in the future, or others can take up the task.
If anyone has any questions or concerns about any of the additions, I'm happy to discuss it here. --RL0919 08:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: More Sources

message: The site provides conclusive evidence that this was not the case, and assuming that they aren't out-right lieing and making fake evidence for no reason, it was safe for me to change 'recent evidence has suggested' to 'recent evidence has proved'.
And not one Randian hero has ever rated themselves relative to others, and that part should be taken off.
===Typewriter Redux===
I substantially revised the following text that was recently added under the "Early Life" sub-head:
::A possibly more correct theory for her last name is that it has the same source as her first name, from a favorite Finnish-Estonian, female, liberated author Aino Kallas and her typewriter (Sperry-Rand). Ayn is the Anglicized version of the Finnish, additionally mythologic, Kalevala name Aino (the one and only) and Ayn is thus pronounced Ein (eye + n).
Sperry-Rand was a 1950s-era name for the already-discussed Remington-Rand. If Rand couldn't have had a Remington-Rand typewriter in 1926, she even more certainly couldn't have had a Sperry-Rand typewriter. Rand did say she got her first name from a Finnish writer, so I left that part in, but trimmed the biographical details about Aino Kallas (which are irrelevant and can be accessed on the page about her) and the reference to mythology that Rand did not mention as a source for her name. Finally, the pronouciation of her name is already provided at the top of the article. --RL0919 19:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rand from a typewriter 

message: I substantially revised the following text that was recently added under the "Early Life" sub-head:
::A possibly more correct theory for her last name is that it has the same source as her first name, from a favorite Finnish-Estonian, female, liberated author Aino Kallas and her typewriter (Sperry-Rand). Ayn is the Anglicized version of the Finnish, additionally mythologic, Kalevala name Aino (the one and only) and Ayn is thus pronounced Ein (eye + n).
Sperry-Rand was a 1950s-era name for the already-discussed Remington-Rand. If Rand couldn't have had a Remington-Rand typewriter in 1926, she even more certainly couldn't have had a Sperry-Rand typewriter. Rand did say she got her first name from a Finnish writer, so I left that part in, but trimmed the biographical details about Aino Kallas (which are irrelevant and can be accessed on the page about her) and the reference to mythology that Rand did not mention as a source for her name. Finally, the pronouciation of her name is already provided at the top of the article. --RL0919 19:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Typewriter Redux

message: It's a simple fact that Rand is largely unknown outside North America.  That's not of course to say that no-one has heard of her, and with her followers' large Internet-presence the situation may well change, but I know of no University in Europe that includes her in philosophy courses, and until recently her books weren't easily available here.  I've been teaching philosophy for nearly twenty years, in three English Universities, and I hadn't heard of her until 'Objectivism' came up in a Usenet group.  When I've mentioned her name to colleagues, only those from the U.S. or Canada have known who I was talking about.  She isn't mentioned in any of the reference books I have to hand (for example: Robert Arrington [ed.] A Companion to the Philosophers (Blackwell, 2001), Peter J. King One Hundred Philosophers (Apple, 2004), Mary Warnock [ed.] Women Philosophers (Dent, 1996), and many others), and most non-U.S. Web sites either don't mention her or point out the geographical limitation of her appeal (e.g., ).  Please don't just remove the section explaining this unless you can show good grounds for your claim that it's "non-factual". Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 08:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's difficult to see how a huge list of references that are almost all to U.S. universities, journals, etc., contradicts what I said.  The only “foreign” references are to Bollywood(!) and hearsay about China.  One of the links concerning India suggests that Rand's novels are popular in India; if true, that would require a slight alteration to the article — not its complete deletion. Mel Etitis  (Μελ Ετητης) 09:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fame