Talk:2006 Lebanon War/Archive 20

message: *Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about POV
*Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about POV (most notable: the discussion about the "Violation of International Law")
*Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive3#Discussion about POV
**Discussion whether to call the two soldiers "captured" or "kidnapped" or "abducted". Almost general consensus that "captured" is a better term than kidnapping. Reasons: (1) more widely used in the media coverage of the event, (2) is considered a more neutral term (i.e. less POV) - See also Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about the captured soldiers for a similar discussion. No consensus was reached about "captured" vs. "abducted".
**Discussion about whether or not to mention "Israeli war crimes".
**Discussion about whether to call Hezbollah militants or terrorists. Preference for militants (except when using quotes).
**Discussion about UNSC 1599.
**Discussion about "who started this crisis"
**Discussion about the expression "political rhetoric".
*Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive4#Discussion about POV; most notable:
**Several discussions about whether the choice of sources in the article caused a POV.
*Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive7#Discussion about POV
**Discussion about War Crimes
**Discussion about bias in the historical section
*Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive8#Discussion about POV
**Destruction of Israel?
**POV emendations
**Position of Lebanon and Chris Matthews
**"Democracy Now!" ??????
**NPOV tag
**Re:Pretty please
**UN Security Council resolution issue
**Hezbollah raid and ensuing border clash
**"Alleged targeting of civilians"
**Alleged targeting of civilians
**Don't confuse NPOV with "must make both sides look equal on everything"
**"Targets in civilian areas" vs. "Civilian targets" and "Targeting of civilians"
**POV article
**Discussing the Best Way to Report What Happened, NOT what a reporter thinks on wikipedia
**Haaretz as a source
**my crucial timeline paragraph unjustly deleted
**Page quality, NPOV, etc
**Pro-Isreali admins
**Coverage of "Hizbollah's Rocket Campaign" ghastly lacking
**Clarification on NPOV
**History of US aid to Israel
*Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive16#Discussion about POV
**Heavy anti-Israeli bias
**Deleted part of Negotions for ceasefire
**"Beginning of conflict" is pro-Israeli
**First real NPOV quality edit ever
**More on this section - let's work for an NPOV and better article
**This is getting ridiculous
**Support to Israel v. Support to Hezbollah
**This is too much
**Quote on "10 residential buildings in south Beirut for every Hezbollah rocket"
**Sequence of Hezbollah/Israel/Lebanon in Military and Civilan Sections
**Reaching consensus on "Beginning of conflict" section
**Mitigating comments on confirmed Israeli attacks on ambulances and hospitals
**Need new article?
**Lead
**balance or truth
**"Disproportionate" vs "Retaliatory""
**The following is a paragraph from the introduction:
**The Aim of Hizbollah
**Template figures: shock
**Way too much Israeli Proganda
**NPOV?
*Please do not change these archived discussions. Instead restart discussion on this talk page. Sijo Ripa 19:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Earlier discussions

message: I've added a POV template at the top, but this was quickly reverted by Ryulong.
I added it again now. It is fairly obvious that people on both sides have issues with the content. If anyone thinks it should not be there, please state the reasons here. ehudshapira 00:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thats because there's more damage on the Lebanese side! I agree we need one pic from Israel, and we did have it (don't know who removed it), but any more than this would actually be more POV than having them all Lebanon. Again, the "pro lebanon" rally is shown because a)we're trying to keep size down, so two pics is one too many, and b) most (but of course, not all) the rallies are calling for an end to the conflict, only some supporting Israel. But I must thank you for actually listing your concerns, rather than just adding the tag and expecting us to guess like some people do. If you tell us what you think is wrong, we can work to fix it. --Iorek85 00:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see how more damage equals more images. An image shows the state of things, whatever it is. (Excessively) more images to one side are biased. Showing the dead Lebanese kid is bias, also because no such pictures are taken or spread in Israel (which also had kids die, even if less).About the demo section, either show demos for both sides or none. ehudshapira 01:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: There was a picture which shows Haifa's train station. We can add it again. Also we can add this picture.--Sa.vakilian 02:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, but we don't need two photos in the protest section - that image is already in the sub article. AdamKesher has added two great before/after pics of Lebanon, so I removed the one of the bomb damage in Beirut to balance it out, and then re-added the mourning Israeli soldiers that someone removed for no reason. Is it O.K with you now? --Iorek85 02:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm removing the tag for now. If the comprimise doesn't suit, you can always add it back. --Iorek85 11:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV box at top 

message: It's about time to call it a war!who are we kidding!
THE ARTICLE IS ONE SIDED I tried many times to balance this article, but it was always reverted (vandalism my ass)! For my comments on the anti-air gun! it was due the fact that it stated that it was "a rcoket launcher used from civilians buildings!" isn't that vandalism! I appreciate that you corrected that! And about the 400 dead from hezbollah! this is pure propaganda! I know for a fact that till now its only 43! and I think we should use the terms war crimes toward the acts of israel! israel due to its military incompetence has killed over 900 civilians!!! Israel is unable to do anything to hezbollah (i'm only stating waht i'm seeing till now) all the news that israeli are getting is full of propaganda! hezbollah has minor minor casualties (till now)!
The LEAFLETS that were dropped on southern Lebanon: I don't think we should keep these unless we state alongside that the leaflets were dropped after all exit roads were cutoff by israeli airraids! I know that because I have nmany friends from there and plus the ones that find a way out on foot get targeted (children!!!that were getting out as these leaflets stated were targeted! this was the case for a village that still had exit roads)! So tell me what's the purpose of these leaflets! they are only an excuse to show to the international community! this is pure hypocratie!
:CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN... maybe if we say the word "children" enough, the arabs will win this war.. because obviously their stupid child-killing rocket attacks surely aren't helping them! CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN... cmon everybody! all together now..! CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN, CHILDREN.. hmm... guess it's not working...! oh well... back to the child-killing suicide attacks then.. the only thing arabs are good for... in the future, when aliens attack, we can send muslim (if there are any left) suicide bombers to kill the alien children Shakespeare Monkey 06:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And this contributes to achieving an NPOV, sourced, encyclopedic entry how? You a non-funny clown Hellznrg, even the hardest-core zionist editors agree. --Cerejota 03:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i wasn't even trying to contribute anything, i was just randomly flaming on the TALK/POV page...! anyways, i know more things than you ever will, because i read a lot... this is why i know that the world will be a better place when all moslems are exterminated.. they contribute nothing, they just take up space and their women are baby-making machines... why do you think they turn their kids into suicide bombers? because their kids are disposable that's why Shakespeare Monkey 18:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why is this article called the "Israel-Lebanon conflict"?  Isn't "Israel-Hezbullah conflict" more accurate, as Israel isn't really fighting the Lebanese (or their Syrian masters)? --Micahbrwn 02:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: it's lebanon's fault for not implementing the UN resolutions calling for the disarmament of militias.. in addition, sineora himself said during this present conflict that hezbolla was "protecting" lebanon, thus giving his full approval to hezbolla to carry out attacks on israel. "if you sleep with dogs, you will wake up with fleas. if you sleep with missiles, you will wake up dead." Shakespeare Monkey 18:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ISRAEL-LEBANON WAR

message: The description of the beginning is constantly getting undone. There wasn't only a capture of two soldiers, but also shelling into Israel, killing of 3, and wounding others. See UN report S/2006/560. This is a base detail. I believe also civilians were hurt at this stage, but I'll have to look for these articles again. ehudshapira 23:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initial shelling & more 

message: "alleged" in front of cross border raid keeps on getting reverted even though it is clearly disputed. It's hard to tell who is doing the deleting because the reverter is not documenting it. It looks like editor Tewfik. If I'm wrong, then my apologies. under the circumstances an NPOV warning is in order. Best Wishes. Will314159 17:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The UN doesn't think it is disputed... 89.0.219.66 17:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As the UN, EU, G8, and mainstream media (including Al Jazeera) have all characterised the Hezbollah raid as "cross-border," and as the sources of initial reports of the raid being in Lebanon have not been followed by current reports from those agencies, there is no reason to qualify the WP:Verifiable claims with words like "alleged," or to give undue weight to unverifiable claims of an alternate version. That the claims were initially made is discussed in the article. If current reports from WP:Reliable sources are printed with these claims, then we should reopen discussion. You can see the citations at Zar'it-Ayta al-Sha`b incident, as they may have been removed here due to space considerations. Cheers, TewfikTalk 04:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm removing the NPOV tag, as this seems to be the only justification. TewfikTalk 06:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

text:  I disagree. Unless I see AFP, AP and other sources who first reported that the raid happens in Lebanon repudiated their original report, I think the event is still disputed. --Stephenzhu 16:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Warning 

message: "He further outlined his organization's strategy of terrorizing Israeli civilians into leaving their country: "We will expand attacks," he said: "The people who came to Israel, (they) moved there to live, not to die. If we continue to attack, they will leave." [85]"
This is AT MOST as terrorist as IDF dropping leaflets telling people to leave their homes or else risk being killed. I think that the part about "terrorizing" should be omitted if we want to keep it NPOV Epsilonsa 19:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hezbollah Position