Talk:English as a second or foreign language/Archive 4

message: 1.	Regarding the number of words: Get serious. English may not have the most words (though I think I does,) but your argument proves nothing. Also, the English words you reference are English words of foreign origin.
2.	Regarding links – Again I disagree, I have used similar links on the Korean and Chinese language pages and they are invaluable. I have also used non- wikipedia resource summaries and found that they are never as comprehensive or current as the ones on the wikipedia because they are not maintained by a community. This is exactly the type of thing that wikipedia is and should be. If you strongly disagree then let's make it a seperate page.
3.	Regarding the EAL Acronym. I hope we are not making up new acronyms! If “EAL” is not commonly used (I dont think it is, but maybe it is within the profession) I would substitute “ESL/EFL"
Finally, we need to add the reasons why English is difficult to learn. From my experience:
a.	Spelling – due to the many foreign adapted words there are many confusing pronunciation rules. Knowing the spelling does not tell you the pronunciation and (much worse for learners) knowing the pronunciation does not tell you the spelling making it difficult to look up in a dictionary  jcp 10:49, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc responses and comments 

message: Economic power often determines language, and because English has become the language of business, the Internet, politics, science, increasing numbers of people are learning to communicate in it.  85% of Internet sites are in English.  Teaching English is a $20 Billion a year industry.  The World Trade Organization communicates in English; all of the position papers, documents, meetings, debriefings, are all in English.
The argument that English has the most words is tenuous at best, however, the number of synonyms makes it one of the most creative languages as you can be extremely specific about what you want to say if your vocabulary supports your ideas.
Because of the rise of the States as a global superpower, English is now the language people divert to when communicating.  When I was in Beijing, PR China, I was trying on some clothes and the person beside me in the fitting room was from Germany, or Austria (I'm not sure); what language did he ask the store owner to get a bigger size in?  English!  People switch immediately to English because of its global reach.69.157.48.11 21:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  ESL and the importance of English Language Learning 

message: Although I can’t pose as a specialist on ESL, I found your article excellent. 
I propose a link (which I think is distinctive) for your consideration www.benandverse.com/writings/index.htm.
My ESL section on that site is distinctive in that it features a short story in English that was not just translated into Spanish but dramatized in Spanish by the Voice of America – back in radio days. 
The two scripts are closely comparable, except for brief introduction. However, the insights provided by the dramatic treatment should stimulate interest among some students and teachers. (It might also, in some cases, encourage the creative spirit by suggesting alternative ways of dealing with a single storyline.) 
The work on this chapter is from a section I have just added to my website, a literary miscellany, called “Phony Pearls of Fictitious Wisdom.” 
My original website, “Ben and Verse,” is devoted to Ben Franklin. It received the A+ award from the www.englishwebteacher.com (together with a link from the Franklin Institute).
I am sure that the "durability" of a site is at premium in field that is causing a great deal of excitement. My original website has persisted for years; I have instructed my executors that both the original website and this new addition shall remain unchanged until long after my death. 
I’d consider it an honor to receive a link from the Wikipedia.
Sincerely,
John McCall
64.12.117.5 15:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Making ESL Dramatic 

message: I find it awkward that you would mention Englçish and its varieties as a second language yet do not do the same with Portuguese and its varieties. The Academia Brasileira de Letras does not control language , not even in Brazil.
Ppteles (talk) 21:52, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Portuguese

message: I have just created a set of four archives for this talk page.  It had exceeded the suggested limit on length, and some of the discussions were years old, so it seemed a sensible thing to do.  I consulted Wikipedia:How_to_archive_a_talk_page and chose to archive by topic rather than chronology.  Some of the discussions on this page were poorly threaded, and different people had started separte sections with identical subtitles, so it was difficult to find the information to refer back to.  As this is the first time I have created archive pages, I would appreciate feedback. If there is anything I could do better next time, I would like to know. (Here or on my talk page.) BrainyBabe 17:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Explaining the creation of archives

message: 1.	Regarding the number of words: Get serious. English may not have the most words (though I think I does,) but your argument proves nothing. Also, the English words you reference are English words of foreign origin.
2.	Regarding links – Again I disagree, I have used similar links on the Korean and Chinese language pages and they are invaluable. I have also used non- wikipedia resource summaries and found that they are never as comprehensive or current as the ones on the wikipedia because they are not maintained by a community. This is exactly the type of thing that wikipedia is and should be. If you strongly disagree then let's make it a seperate page.
3.	Regarding the EAL Acronym. I hope we are not making up new acronyms! If “EAL” is not commonly used (I don't think it is, but maybe it is within the profession) I would substitute “ESL/EFL"
Finally, we need to add the reasons why English is difficult to learn. From my experience:
a.	Spelling – due to the many foreign adapted words there are many confusing pronunciation rules. Knowing the spelling does not tell you the pronunciation and (much worse for learners) knowing the pronunciation does not tell you the spelling making it difficult to look up in a dictionary  jcp 10:49, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Misc responses and comments 

message: It is maddening and baffling encountering all of these abbrevations.  Kudos to all of these. Yes, one does encounter even the obscure ones.  And please don't remove a single one.
This page is indispensable. Dogru144 00:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you so much for these words of encouragement. (I would have put this on your user page if you had one.)BrainyBabe 12:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, thank you, and kudos to your contributions. I've avoided the user page since I want to avoid too much email. Dogru144 15:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have a user page I have never bothered to write anything on, but it allows me to have a discussion page for things like this, and questions about how better to use Wikipedia.  i assure you I don't get swamped with email! BrainyBabe 15:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cheers to all of the acronym entries on the article page

message: Sometime ago I checked on whether UK universities accepted TOEFL. I began with the large public universities and covered many private instututions.  The long and short of it is, I stopped after receiving confirmations from 56 universities all over the UK that they all accepted TOEFL (I think Oxford does not accept IELTS or TOEFL but I can check.).
The statment that TOEFL is primarily accepted in the USA is misleading and should be adjusted to include the UK and Australia. NZ universities, all of them, accept TOEFL as well as IELTS. I know, I asked.
Malangthon 04:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exams section

message: "The learner's task is further complicated by the fact that native speakers may drop consonants in the more complex blends (e.g., [məns] instead of [mənθs] for months)."
:Shouldn't we use a full vowel instead of a schwa, since the syllable is stressed?--Rairun 04:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the [ʌ] would be correct. Jsteph 10:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phonetic Transcriptions 

message: Hi
what is the proper term in englih, "loosing" or "losing" ?
The sense of th word is when you lost something. Ex.:I´m "loosing" my mind.
Best Regards,
Guga —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beyond2000 (talk • contribs) 15:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: heh heh, that is one of the most frequently misspelled words on the Web.  "losing" for the meaning Guga intends; "loosing" for "loose", as in "let loose the dogs of war." I see "loosing" everywhere... Bacrito 18:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  English term 

message: I think the reversion of my edit (I had changed "fit in to" to "communicate in their new country") is ill-considered.  Why the insistence on "fit in"?  That's a very large assumption (perhaps a reasonable one, but purely an assumption nonetheless) about the motives of learners that goes far beyond the intended scope of the article.  Do you really want to, entirely unnecessarily, stake out in this article a pov position on assimilation vs multiculturalism?  "Fitting in" is a normative concept, incomplete, and misleading; "communicate" is neutral (and fully accurate).  Perhaps we could explore this further, if you think it necessary.  I won't revert the reversion right now - I have to go help some people learn to communicate in English (whether they end up "fitting in" is entirely up to them, and the communities they live in).  Please reconsider.  Bacrito 12:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for engaging on the talk page. Your articulate reasons have swayed me somewhat; I hadn't thought of "fitting in" as assuming or tending towards assimilation, but I suppose in some contexts it can be.  (Although, in turn, assimilation and multiculturalism are not clear-cut issues; some would hold one to be good, some the other, so POV cuts both ways.)  My point was that people around the world use English to communicate between countries: Germany to Malaysia, Russia to Brazil.  The variety they learn has little impact on that need to communicate.  I wanted to distinguish that from people who come to settle in the Anglosphere, who generally want to learn what's going on around them  -- not necessarily to adopt that culture, but to understand it.  That goes for cultural nuances and slang as much as tyre/tire spelling distinctions or the use of present perfect or past simple.  Kids pick up the accent and the idiom much faster, of course, and often even a transatlantic migration (eg US to UK or vice versa) will lead to the child codeswitching to "fit in" with peers.  Perhaps the verb "use" would be more neutral? BrainyBabe 16:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversion to concept of "fitting in" 

message: Where does this comparison between ALTE/CEF levels and TOEIC and TOEFL come from? I know it is difficult to compare different examinations and any placing of TOEIC scores on 4 skills testing scales is problematic and the table could be misleading.  I can't find a reference. Does anyone have one?  Mark2shinshu 09:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point.  Tag it as unsourced if you feel it justified. Where have you looked for references? BrainyBabe 12:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Source for exams comparison

message: How many school-age children and adults are learning English in each country where English is a major language?  It has implications for educational and economic policies. -- Beland 02:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics 

message: This is interesting info, but not supported by the quote (which is nonetheless a useful source)
I leave this here until someone can better source and reintegrate it. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  move from article 

message: I suggest that the section on "difficulties for learners" be given its own article. It sits strangely here, in an article mainly about the occupation and the teacher. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  proposed hiving off 

message: I have removed the following, added by an anonymous editor:
:Recent neuroscience seems to indicate that the brain is reading and writing by comparing what it sees with a large "word archive" of Mental Orthographic Images (MOI). While rules and phonics are great tools when in doubt, it is essential for successful reading and writing that the brain has a large amount of vocabulary readily stored in its word archive. 
:For decades, spelling education has been associated with rote learning styles. However, just because old learning styles did not work all that well does not mean that we can do away with the content to be learned. Increasingly voices are heard within the educational community cautioning that spelling practice may still have an important place in education, since not being able to write a word is an important indication of the word not yet being successfully stored in long-term memory.
:Most people write based on a "looks right" mechanism, and read with the help of a powerful yet largely improvising "looks like" process. Both processes match words within fractions of a second to meaning - provided the brain is operating on the basis of a strong vocabulary. Secure vocabulary knowledge - which includes the ability to spell with confidence - is therefor likely a foundation of successful reading and writing that should not be underestimated.A reflection on the Cna yuo raed tihs?  email, and why it shows the importance of spelling, 
It is interesting but not appropriate for this article. FIrstly, it is unsourced (blogs don't count); secondly, it is not clear that it is about EFL/ESL. I will add it to the talkpage of Phonics and see if anyone can make use of it there.  To the editor who took the trouble to create this, please make an account, and I will try to assist you in your future contributions to Wikipedia.  We value your energy and good intentions, but there are some rules to learn first. BrainyBabe (talk) 07:06, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed spelling & writing info to here 

message: English teacher and ESL are two very different things...  Generally, the term "English teacher" is associated with someone who teaches language, literature and writing to native or fluent speakers of the language, not someone who teaches ESL students.--Jp07 (talk) 05:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you created a separate article for English teacher, what would you expect to find in it?  Have you checked around to see if there is an article that covers that comprehensively? You might redirect to that, or create a disambiguation page, with links to this page, TEFL, British education (i.e. a teacher of English nationality), the teaching of literature, etc. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Should "English teacher" really redirect to this article?

message: I did some (admittedly, very minor) editing of the "Problems for Speakers of Specific Languages in Learning English" section. However, I do not think it fits in this article, as the only language that's mentioned is Thai. Speakers of Japanese, French, Cherokee, etc etc, would also have difficulties learning English - as would native English speakers attempting to learn Japanese, French, Cherokee, etc etc.
At the very least, we should give a couple of other examples. Furthermore, we should keep the explanations brief.
Red dwarf (talk) 21:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. If it is legitimate to include the problems of Thai speakers, then it is equally legitimate to have equivalent sections on the difficulties that Chinese, Japanese, Hindi, Spanish, Arabic, Russian, and Portuguese speakers experience in learning English, all of which are well documented.  The needs of Albanian, Tagalog, Tamil, Hungarian, Sami, and Kyrgyz speakers should also be taken into account.  Each of these -- with sources -- would make a good article. Their inclusion here does not improve this article, bu rather unbalances it. BrainyBabe (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I see I proposed something similar in April 2008, above. BrainyBabe (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems for Speakers of Specific Languages in Learning English

message: I placed a "citation needed" after the statement that most esl-instructors at universities and community-colleges have an MA in TESL.  I have taught at 3 universities and at 4 community-colleges in 3 US cities / 2 US states, and the majority of my co-workers at the cc's didn't have master's in any subject.  At the universities, they had master's or were working on them, but their master's were not usually in TESL or something related such as Linguistics.  At community-colleges and universities, I have taught ESL alongside people who had degrees in biology, electrical engineering, French literature, history, women's studies, and anthropology.  I have discussed this with colleagues from all around the US and Canada, and they tell me the same situation is common where they have taught; therefore, I do not believe that most esl-instructors at universities and cc's have an MA in TESL.  PN, MA Ling (talk) 01:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Qualifications to Teach ESL, Especially in the U.S. 

message: In two unhelpful edits last October (1, 2) Doanan removed some material and replaced it with a throwaway and irrelevant remark. An unfortunate side-effect was to disrupt the header hierarchy, promoting five subheads up a level. I've restored the material. Hope this helps, best wishes, DBaK (talk) 18:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restored missing content 

message: I'm not a linguist, but I don't think this is true.  I can think of at least four, and the diphthong page shows at lot more for GA. Ufwuct (talk) 19:55, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Only 3 diphthongs for General American dialect

message: Learning English is difficult for English learners because their first languages are not English. They learn English with their languages' cultures. The older they are, the harder for them to learn English. Furthermore, adults are more difficult to learn new languages than children because children are less self-conscience and mouth muscles are more flexible than adults. There are four main categories in English: Reading, Writing, Speaking, and Listening.
♦Reading: Reading is a one of the areas that you need to learn to improve your English. There are several ways to make your reading skill better. Bring a dictionary with you everyday, and look up new words whenever you see new vocabulary. Even though you don't have dictionary with you, you can write down the new words on your "word-taking" notebook. As you start learning, you can start reading some books with simple words such as children's books. As your reading ability increases, you can start reading magazines, newspapers, and books. When you do the readings, you don't need to understand every single word. You just need to understand the general ideas of the readings.
♣Writing: Writing is another area that you need to learn to improve your English. As a new English learner, you can try to write something a day regardless of letter, diary, or chatting. You can start with simple vocabulary at the beginning; try to come up with complete sentences afterward. After a period of time, your English skill will be improved. Online resources can also help you to learn English. You can write blog, leave messages for your friends, or chat with friends online. Those are more entreated to do. Whenever write something, you can try to apply your new-learning words to your context.   
♥Listening: Listening is the third idea to learn to improve your English. Watching English-speaking television, listening to the music, and watching movies provide an environment for you to practice your listening. A recommendation is to listen as much as from Native Speakers as possible because they have natural flow in speeches. As you listen more, you will learn the correct pronunciation, speech pattern, and comfortable to listen English. At the beginning, listening English might be hard, so subtitle is recommended. Reading the subtitle and following the listening at the same time can help you learn new words and practice listening.
♠Speaking:  Another idea to learn to improve your English is speaking. Speaking is the hardest one to improve in English. Most of English learners have accents because they have learned their first languages previously. To practice speaking as much as you can because the more you speak, the more you will improve on speaking. When you are a beginner in learning English, you can practice pronunciation in front of the mirror. Then start speaking in English with some body that you feel comfortable with. The most important thing is don't be embarrassed. Without fear, you will do a lot better. When you fail, you need to keep practicing until the day you get it correctly.
[edit]
Websites for English Learners
http://www.learnenglish.de http://www.agendaweb.org/ http://a4esl.org/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/learning/subjects/english.shtml https://www.englishclub.com/ http://www.rong-chang.com/ http://www.world-english.org/ http://www.zozanga.com/ http://www.freeenglishnow.com/ http://www.manythings.org/ http://www.everythingesl.net/inservices/elementary_sites_ells_71638.php http://www.kinglishschool.com http://www.word2word.com/course.html http://www.podcastsinenglish.com/index.shtml  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Janicekuang17 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Methods for English Learners

message: Looking at the pronunciation section of this article, I've noticed a complete lack of citations to support the information there.  There are examples of information that is not accurate and even contradicted even in other Wikipedia articles.  For example, this article says that a consonant cluster after a vowel can only contain four consonants, but this article:  Consonant cluster states that although rare, clusters after a vowel can contain up to five consonants.  The other aspect that needs citations are the claims made on how speakers of certain other languages would pronounce certain things in English.  A lot of this information could be considered general knowledge, I guess (i.e., [r] and [l] confusion for Japanese), but who collected the data used in the article as examples?  With some citations or documented data sources, the credibility of this article could be greatly improved. Scc04 (talk) 19:11, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've shortened the section.  From my experience with non-native pronunciations of English, the pronunciation of non-native speakers is something many like to contribute to but few have sources for.  Good catch.  — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 02:46, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citations 

message: :The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 17:19, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
;Late note
When this comes up again, as it will, add my vote in support of moving or splitting this page so it has a less godawful title. If EFL is actually distinct, give it a separate treatment; if it is not actually distinct (or so minimally distinct as to be easily treated on the same page), make it a subsection of the ESL page, which is (far and away) the current WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME as documented above. 
(Frankly, the objections to "2nd" as mutually exclusive with polyglot learners simply indicate those objecting could themselves benefit from an ESL course. There are other definitions of the word... such as the one being used in this case.) — LlywelynII 14:49, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: Saw some edits recently taking exception to an unperioded USA. As an American who doesn't really see the point  the most important thing is consistency with or without & no one ever seems to bother to use them for any acronyms except USA; therefore, we should just follow the hordes who've already abandoned the Victorian model and stop making an issue of it altogether  and noticed a "centred" in the lede paragraph, I checked to see whether the page is even on an American standard.
Looks like no one had checked before, so I'll just note that the stub went British first but the first non-stub (i.e., controlling) edit was in American English. Banner template added and kindly try to maintain the style consistently in the page, pending a new consensus here that it should change. — LlywelynII 14:39, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: WP:ENGVAR

message: This isn't the U.S. Army; especially for this article (out of all of them) we should be aiming for ease of use and not the current jargon-laden alphabet soup. That's my take; I'll leave it to the resident editors how best to balance that with thorough coverage. I will note, however, that (inter alia) we're defining the exact same terms two and three times in multiple sections. I suppose that could be helpful, but for the most part this is jargon that we'd be better off avoiding in the first place. — LlywelynII 16:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Acronym soup

message: In this section, I would like to add how the implication of technology influences the advancement of ESL learners. MlkTheGenius (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Implication of technology in ESL learning schools