Talk:Transnistria/Archive 4

message: We have to remove the reference to the "radioactive bombs" because its only source, an article in the The Times, has been discredited. It turned out that the reporter always knew the full name of who he was talking to, Dmitry Soin, and that the reporter (a freelancer) made up most of the article. Soin, who is the source of the article, has stated that about the only true item is the fact the fact that he drives a black BMW. The rest is made up. He is on the record, with photos, revealing the facts and fictions of the Times article. It has been impossible to find other sources apart from this single, erroneous Times article. All other research always point back to this article and no independent verification exists. - William Mauco 14:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the Times article is dubious and can be excluded. However, I don't undertand why you removed the paragraph regarding the missiles that disappeared from Transnistria. That story is not connected to the Times article and has been validated by the appearence of some of the missile throughout Ossetia and Chechnya. TSO1D 16:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You are right. We just need to include citations (this can be done in the References section) so that wikipedia doesn't get the reputation of being a purveyor of propaganda for one side or the other. This is extremely important in such a hotly contested topic. -William Mauco 23:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime 

message: Please help find sources for our claim that 70 surface-to-air missile launchers disappeared and our implication that they were sold. That these same launchers later appeared in Ossetia or Chechnya sounds like kompromat. Let's remove this information and add it back in when/if we obtain reliable citations. - William Mauco 22:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is an article from the washington post: http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20040118-103519-5374r.htm TSO1D 03:56, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! However, it doesn't quite convince on the missile point. But we can use it as a reference and those who want to dig further can then determine for themselves to what extent they believe the writer's claims. I think it works - 85.214.29.234 15:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, but I politely disagree. For Wikipedia to be credible we need better references than Oazu Nantoi's say-so to The Washington Times. Nantoi is a Romanophile warmonger whose brief career as an advisor to Moldova's president ended because he was too radical. He has an axe to grind. These days, he makes a living as a "talking head" from a private Chisinau-based NGO (called IPP) stirring up hatred against Transnistria by consistently shooting down every settlement proposal from OSCE, from Ukraine, and everywhere else.The Washington Times is only slightly more credible. Founded as the propaganda arm for fanatic cult leader Sun Myung Moon, it is a documented purveyor of planted misinformation. David Brock, author of Blinded by the Right, writes about his work for The Washington Times and how he "made up stories ... that could never be corroborated." This former employee is on the record for calling the Washington Times' journalistic ethics "close to nil". And from Wikipedia:  Salon.com (, ) and The Daily Howler (examples:  , , , ) have published scathing analyses of what they say are serious factual errors and examples of bias in the paper's news coverage.The article we reference is classic smear: Almost every "fact" comes from unnamed sources speaking "on the condition of anonymity". Researching these claims just leads to more unnamed sources and sometimes to claims which official Moldova then refuses to back up, document, comment on, or share with journalists. Serious neutral research actually reveals the exact opposite. For instance, Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty quotes western diplomats who call reports of massive arms and drug smuggling "wildly exaggerated." http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/10/05f3742a-1c2d-4e1a-a57f-0e9780549795.html - William Mauco 16:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Nantoi certainly has his fan club and I am obviously not part of it. I see his public statements as clearly biased and as rarely matching the available evidence. For non-English (internal and Romanian consumption) he is even more rabid. Ask OSCE officials what they think of his "contribution" to the Transnistrian settlement process. - William Mauco 19:55, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I am glad to see that we can find more references, but this one is hardly a better one. Ion Mardarovici's report from Chisinau, Moldova makes allegations to weapons which were apparently produced in Transnistria, and not to the 70 missing missile launchers from an old Soviet stockpile which is the uncited claim that we are dealing with here. His claim of "registered cases" is not footnoted or referenced, nor are we told who registered these cases, when or where. Instead, half of the report consists of interviews with school children and pro-Moldovan nationalists while the Transnistrian POV is not given equal treatment. At least The Washington Times article was more objective because it included the true statement that officials in Transnistria denied the allegations. So to safeguard the quality standards of the encyclopedia, let's keep looking for more facts on which to base our claims, please. - William Mauco 19:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

text: It is much better now. But if we include information that we can not fully source, then we need to at least preface it with the fact that these are the claims of analysts and that Transnistria maintains a consistent denial of such claims. - William Mauco 19:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Earlier today, someone else rewrote the paragraph as follows:"According to a former Moldovan official, a cache of 70 surface-to-air missile launchers disappeared from a former Soviet stockpile some years ago. Moldova's government declined comment. Officials in Transnistria denied the allegations."That sums up the position of all sides: Nantoi, Moldova's government and Transnistria's government. It also matches the content of the reference from Washington Times, which is full of "anonymous sources" but which at least also allows Transnistria to state their side. It is a more accurate representation of the position of the involved parties than the current sentence: "Recently, a cache of surface-to-air missile launchers as well as other weapons disappeared from a former Soviet stockpile and officials are unable to account for their whereabouts." - William Mauco 19:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime: Missing missile launchers 

message: It is misleading to state that Transnistria gets free gas from Russia while Moldova had to pay for it. The truth is that they both  get gas on credit: Both Transnistria and Moldova are still supplied (neither country is currently cut off from Russian supplies) and both countries maintain a debt. Moreover, the paragraph previously recycled deliberately wrong facts circulated by Vladimir Socor and claimed that Transnistria's debt to Russian company Gazprom was "more than $1 billion" when it is in fact only half that. - William Mauco 14:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gas debts 

message: William Mauco, please motivate the removal of each paragraph.
For example, why did you removed this: 
:Since partition, Transnistria has served as a haven for smugglers and traffickers in fuels, arms, and other contraband, as well as trafficking in human beings. A recent report funded by the British Department for International Development named Transnistria "a smuggling company masquerading as a state".
It has (had?) a BBC reference. bogdan 18:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Bogdan - I am not sure that this was done by me. I also don't remember seeing a reference to the claim. But I agree with you that anyone who edits should use the Talk pages to explain their reasons and why he or she thinks that their edits are making the article better. That's what the disclaimer on the top of this page says: ...discuss substantial changes here before making them. - William Mauco 19:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discuss changes before making them 

message: If both names, Moldovan and Romanian, are to be used it makes sense to keep them together. The census only had one choice for this ethnic group from what I gather, therefore they should be kept under one category. Saying Moldovan and Romanian implies that both were distinct choices that were presented to the populace and that they were combined in this presentation. I don't believe that is accurate, otherwise the "Romanians" would have been listed under other. The category should read Moldovan/Romanian. TSO1D 22:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am trying to get confirmation on this for you. I seem to recall that the form did distinguish between Moldavian (Moldovan) and Romanian. I know for a fact that it had fields for jews, Bulgarians, Gagauz, Poles, Tatars, etc. - William Mauco 00:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, let's keep in mind that for many readers even the initial casing of the word means something. For instance, when I hear about "Romanians" I normally think of this a specific nationality (citizen of Romania) whereas "romanians" is a more generic terms; an ethnic group. Likewise: Moldovans (citizens of the Republic of Moldova) and moldavians (ethnic group). - William Mauco 00:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the form did in fact distinguish between Moldovan and Romanian, then the category Moldovan should not have Romanian next to it in any form as the Romanian data would be included in the "others" category. As for the case of the word, in the English language all proper nouns are capitalized regardless of their meaning.  TSO1D 00:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree: "Romanian", in this context, would rank alongside Gagauz, Poles, etc. Please note that I don't yet have the form for you, though. - William Mauco 02:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Census ethnonyms 

message: I see that the official website of the President now uses the name Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic on its English language page , rather than Trans-. Presumably this is the preferred official English version so I have added this and created a redirection page. If anyone knows when this usage began in official literature, please add the date. Jameswilson 03:13, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why did you revert? Is the "official" name now PMR or not? Jameswilson 03:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, we'd better wait until they settle on one version then. I think de facto in the UK press, Moldavia(n} is used for Iaşi, etc and Moldova{n} for Chişinau, etc. The first time I saw the word Moldova in English was for a football match v England in the mid-90s. I think up till then both were called Moldavia here. But the distinction seems to have stuck. Jameswilson 03:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Update to the above: It's official. The longform name is Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica and the official shortform name is Pridnestrovie. See О ТPАНСЛИТЕPАЦИИ И ТОПОНИМИКЕ НАИМЕНОВАНИЙ available on both pridnestrovie.net and zakon-pmr and Pravo PMR - Mauco 20:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The page makes is look as though the TMR government was complying with a UN recommendation to standardize the name. This is of course ridiculous as the UN certainly does not recognize the Transnistrian government in any form. For this reason on official UN pages as well as those of other organizations, the TMR "law" will have no effect and I believe that the variant used by the government of Moldova will continue to be used in all international documents. TSO1D 20:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Within the territory of Transnistria, at least, it is a fact that the laws and edicts of the Transnistria's parliament and president are in force. Internationally, everyone else are of course free to do what they want. Official country name falls under the category of state symbols (like flag, coat of arms, etc.) If we take their flag edict at face value, at least as it concerns usage within the territory which is under the control of the Tiraspol authorities, then we must also give the same consideration to their name edict. Maybe they got carried away a bit in their phrasing but it is still the law there, whether we like it or not. - Mauco 21:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text:  I am not sure what Wikipedia's policy for such situations is. Your argument makes sense, if that is their official name then it would be used by that form. However in my view the law is a bit bizare; I don't understand how they state that the English variant of the name is simply the transliteration of the Russian version. If I am not mistaken, Transnistria has three official languages and the English variation of the region has never been Pridnestrovia but usually Transdiester or Transnistria (not from Romanian but from Latin). For this reason I believe that although the TMR might translate official documents using this name, no international institutions will continue using Transnistria and I don't believe we should change the name yet (the Russian transliteration does currently correspond to their proposed version). TSO1D 22:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will research this, as well as Wikipedia practices. I agree with you that it is not right to change the name, as least not yet. - Mauco 22:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Results of the research: Two apparently conflicting conclusions. On the one hand, the closest analogy seems to be Burma/Myanmar with Burma, rather than the official name Myanmar, being used by bodies and states who do not recognize the ruling military junta. Even so, Wikipedia prefers and consistently uses the official name given by the government currently in control of the region, disregarding the usage of some of the largest countries in the world (such as the United States) which for political reasons insist on using Burma. Taken to Transnistria, this would indicate that we should use Pridnestrovie rather than Transnistria since that is the official English language name for the country as per the decree of a government which, although not recognized by the U.S. and other countries, is recognized as being in control of the region. Then again, according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize. The truth is that the "majority of English speakers" recognize neither Transnistria nor Pridnestrovie but that between the two names, Transnistria is nevertheless the most widely used in English. This indicates that we should stick with Transnistria. - Mauco 16:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree. TSO1D 22:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Basically, the twin conclusions means that we should stick with Transnistria (common English name) and that we should also mention Pridnestrovie  (official shortform) / Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica (official longform) / PMR (official abbreviation). These, probably with Transnistria first, should be the dominant names used in the article. We should change other names (MRT, TMR, DMR, etc) since they are neither the most common English names nor are they official names, and therefore they fall into neither of the two naming conventions used for Wikipedia. We can keep them in a paragraph about "other names" but they should not appear elsewhere. - Mauco 13:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the other abbreviations should be changed to PMR. TSO1D 20:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, here's what I've done as a result of the above: Instead of just deleting a bunch of stuff, I have moved everything into a new article Names for Transnistria (not too happy with this name of the article, however, so feel free to change it). This allowed me to clean some of the auxiliary information from the main Transnistria article, so that it now only focuses on the two names that there is consensus on: Transnistria as the main name, and then the official names (long, short and abbreviation) mentioned prominently as well. - Mauco 22:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  new english version of name 

message: Now that we are here, allow me some more Sovietic rant. Today this immigration is protrayed as a vicious Russification of poor oppressed Baltic States, Ukrainians, Moldovans, etc.. In fact, it was a policy of industrialization of backwards rural periphery in a brainless bureaucratic way. Different places differ, let me tell you about Moldova. A famous winery for the whole Soviet Union. Endless vineyards. Despite total collectivization, people have private vineyards, also steal a little from kolkhoz/sovkhoz and have a great time. Now, a plant is being built. Can you find an idiot who would want to sweat in a greasy noisy place instead of tending sunny Feteasca? Of course, Soviets had to transfer workforce from Russia. `'mikka (t) 20:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, Mikka found the Promised Land. It's Moldova. You should found a sect and earn some good money. And promote tourism to Moldova, too. :) Dpotop 21:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, it is not Moldova. It was Moldavian SSR, and only in eyes of Soviet people. Just like it was Georgian SSR, where 7 orange trees and 3 lemon trees and a patch of roses would make a person rich (by Soviet standards). Instead of  poking fun at me, you'd better try and understand what I was saying. But you probably already know what you need to know about all past, present and future. Good luck. `'mikka (t) 21:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

text: As for promoting tourism in Moldova, do you happen to know that in Soviet times virtually all excellent sorts of grape were intentionally destroyed in the fight against alcoholism? I don't know hoiw the recovery goes, but what Moldovan wine I see imported into the USA today is all "ink", as we called it in Soviet times, despite all these old famous names. So I guess Moldova is not Napa Valley now.  `'mikka (t) 21:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately, your "innocent" arguments look very much like the racist arguments on Black Africa: "It's so hot there, that they need nothing, just pick some  bananas and eat them. Europeans are needed to do the real work." This is why Soviet propaganda was so vicious, because it made decent individuals like you (and others) believe such nonsense. And this is why we have had those arguments in the past. Dpotop 12:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Colleague, each racist propaganda has a grain of truth. If you don't want a cell phone and a TV set, you can right-oh pick a banana and be happy. And surprisingly many people don't see anything bad in banana happiness. That is why Amercian propaganda is so vicious: you say "Soviet" and everything is propaganda and bullshit. The truth is that in different places land has different level of productivity. The Soviet problem was that people were not allowed to live off land, and on the other hand the Soviet state wasted the resource terribly. I completely fail to see what propaganda is in this. `'mikka (t) 18:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Moldovans are romanians and you don't have any evidence to prove that is not like that. The rest of your arguments are just cheap sovietic political arguments that may be well considered as anti-romanian remarks.--125.248.157.82 11:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "result of the centrally promoted immigration of skilled labour"

message: From what I understand Mikka is right. The official flag (flown on state buildings) must include the hammer and sickle. However, by the Article 4 of Law on symbolism, the hammer and sickle can be ommited for most cases (except for state institutions). This is from http://fotw.vexillum.com/flags/md-dnies.html and http://pridnestrovie.net/. TSO1D 15:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. De jure, I am looking into this here: http://zakon-pmr.com/index.php?adv - De facto, all PMR flags are now clean tri-bands with no hammer and sickle. This is even true in official use, as far as I know. So if the Transnistrians themselves have abandoned their hammer and sickle, I don't see why Wikipedia should reflect anything else than the reality ... even if their laws may yet have caught it with that. I know that this approach is more pragmatic than Sovietic. But let us discuss this some more, and if we want to get an inside view then someone (Mikka? TSO1D?) could also open a thread on http://forum.tiraspol.net asking about this issue. - Mauco 17:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: LOl, actually I had not seen that page before. Well, I guess this discussion did not bring out any new information, but at least I believe the issue is settled. TSO1D 18:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is still puzzling is that, with the 2000 law, why does government itself not even adhere to it? Look at photos from president-pmr.org, mfa-pmr.org, and any of the news services covering official events and national holidays of Transnistria: Sep 2, Feb 23, etc. All the flags are without star and without hammer and sickle. - Mauco 05:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

text: After five days and no objections to the proposal above, the change has now been made accordingly. In summary: Between the two official flags (state and civil), which are both legal, we now show the one which is in common usage. This practice corresponds to other Wikipedia country entries, such as for instance Bolivia, and it also corresponds to the practise used for this particular article (Transnistria) in Wikipedias in most other languages ,,,,etc. - Mauco 22:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not so sure that these symbols actually reflect the current state of the state. But "Period" sounds like there's not much to argue, so ... period it is. It is not a big deal for me, either way, although we are allowed to show the most commonly used flag (rather than just state flag) in the official infobox. - Mauco 03:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flag 

message: Can one explain me how come that Moldovans are not Romanians? It looks like a russian POV in the article. --220.65.247.178 06:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Moldovans]] = [[Romanians]]

message: I was going through the article and this sentence caught my eye: "One is a munitions factory in Tighina (Bender) while another important steel factory exists in Rîbniţa (Rybnitsa). The factory in Rîbniţa brings about 50% of the republic's revenue and is the main provider of jobs in that city." It seems strange that one factory would account for 50% of the region's revenue. Can anyone provide a source that can back that statement? Otherwise, it might be best to simply remove it. TSO1D 15:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't the original author of this statement, and I agree with you that it sounds strange. I have no objection to removing it. But the statement may not necessarily be wrong. The factory is MMZ, on which more can be seen here and here. It is indeed that city's largest employer. When measured in sales, its $500+ million also makes it #1 in Transnistria. If the Transnistria GDP is only twice that, the 50% statement could be true unless we are comparing apples with oranges. -Mauco 19:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Did some more research on this subject and found the following: "The Moldova Steel Works in Rybnitsa, which employs close to four thousand workers, is the source of 40 to 50 percent of the de facto state's revenue." This is from page 66 of the book Engaging Eurasia's Separatist States by Dov Lynch, published by the United States Institute of Peace (a government organization), . The corollorary to this is that as of yesterday, the factory just stopped working . So right now, at least, it would be untrue to say that it brings in 50% of the revenue (or even 40%). Like TSO1D says, it might be best to simply remove the whole sentence altogether. - Mauco 21:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The factory in Rîbniţa 

message: I researched and added the water surface area which was "N/A" before. In doing so, I used http://tdsu.idknet.com/region/english/atlas/dir14/relief_text.shtm as the source. I took the size of the Dubossary HPS reservoir 67.5 km2 and Lake Kuchurgan (Cuciurgan) 27.2 km2, and rounded up to the nearest total in order to factor in the Krasnoye Lake and a smaller lake formed by the Rybnitsa river near Kolbasna.
I also corrected land mass area size, as per the following sources in English http://www.mfa-pmr.org/republic/index.php?lang=eng&id=1, http://pridnestrovie.net/facts.html and in Russian 
http://www.tiraspol.net/republic.asp?info=geograf, http://www.olvia.idknet.com/overviewru.htm Note that these all include Bender (Tighina) which is the correct approach for this infobox since Bender is under Transnistria's political administrative control. - Mauco 20:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: A moldovan from Iaşi is a romanian. A moldovan from Moldova is also a romanian. What language does he speak? Romanian language of course.Iasi 10:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An Austrian speaks German. It doesn't make him a German. Now, Bonaparte, this is all repetitive, discussed already multiple times. I feel bad that among the usernames you compromised is the name of this great city. May I suggest that you come back under yet a new name and, first, make to that name some good reputation by writing some articles. Some good articles, not the nonsense entries like Romania's potential masterpiece. After that join the hotter debates. If you just wait until this username follows others in getting blocked, you will just waste yours and other people's time. And, finally, never edit through open proxies! Either directly, or through a new user name. Wikipedia policy explicitly prohibits the usage of open proxies. --Irpen 20:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

text: That is not the view of the PMR government. They believe that Moldovan is different from Romanian, and that the main difference is the fact that it is spelled with cyrillic letters. This position is supported by the historical fact that ethnic Moldovans in Transnistria have used the cyrillic alphabet for their own language since the 14th century, with the exception of 15 years in the interwar period. (Source: ) Transnistria calls the language Moldavian (Moldovan) and differentiates it from Romanian mainly by using cyrillic. They call the same language Romanian when it is written in the latin alphabet. Contrast this with the official position of the government of the Republic of Moldova which calls the language Moldovan even when written with latin alphabet. In this article, we are using two names: The common English name (Transnistria) and then the official name(s). For the latter, we are displaying the official name as determined by the government of PMR, in all three official languages, so we must adhere to their choice both in naming and in spelling it in each of these languages. - Mauco 15:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Language problems

message: I believe that the word separatist should continue to be used in the article. I remember there was a debate regarding its use about a year ago but it was decided to maintian it for numerous region. Most international organizations such as the EU and OSCE refer to the regime as such. Calling it an independent government is a euphemism. Others encycopedias such as Encarta also use the term separatist and secessionist. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761566942_2/Moldova.html TSO1D 20:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with separatist (although if we really, really, really want to split hairs I can document why technically this is not the case. However, for ease-of-understanding it is probably the word that best describes Transnistria for outsiders who don't want to get bogged down in technicalities). I am more concerned about the word regime. It is a "loaded" word which carries an implied POV. A neutral word would be "government". It has no value judgment since it can be used equally well for dictatorial authoritarian governments as for democratic governments. The word government does not even imply recognition of Transnistria as a separate country, as "government" is used at the local level too (city government, regional government). - Mauco 22:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

text: Please read more closely: I am concerned about the word regime, not the word separatist. The former is best replaced with the neutral word government (while separatist can stay as far as I am concerned). - Mauco 12:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I'd hate to bait a troll, but for what it is worth: Government in English can refer to any kind of government, be it state, local, regional, city government etc. Even "illegal governments" (such as governments which obtain power through a coup) are governments. It is a neutral word whereas regime is value-laden. - Mauco 14:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As you said it already. A Government is...Well in this case there is no Government. It's just an illegal regime. Which is also separatist. 195.245.224.138 14:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

text: OK, I will do the edits. - Mauco 20:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Attempted to do edits, so as to adopt neutral POV, but we have an anonymous troll who's currently disrupting. Please take a look. - Mauco 20:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It might make sense to request semi-protection for this page if this continues. TSO1D 21:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The IP is an open proxy BTW. --Khoikhoi 21:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separatist regime 

message: Yes. What will be the future of Transnistria? Well... Transnistria will become a part of Romania.195.245.224.138 14:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the point of this comment? seriously? do you think that it will serve at all to our discussion here? As a Romanian, I can tell you that if by any chance Moldova and Romania agree to join into one state, I would really not want Transnistria to be included in it.Constantzeanu 08:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just ignore anonymous comments. And you're right: If Moldova and Romania ever unify, then Romania will absolutely insist on solving the issue with Transnistria first. They don't want to be saddled with a potential Northern Ireland problem beyond the border of what has historically always been considered the extreme East of Greater Romania. - Mauco 14:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Will Moldova join Romania?

message: :from user talk:RHaworth#Request
Hi Roger,
Would you be able to semi-protect the Transnistria page? It's under attack by an open proxy IP, most likely a sock of the banned User:Bonaparte. Thanks. --Khoikhoi 06:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  We might be able to take this off now. It looks quiet around here for the past couple of weeks. - Mauco 13:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  sprotect 

message: As originally discussed a month ago, we now have a separate History of Transnistria article. This is in part to match overall  Wikipedia practice and in part so that the main article conforms with Wikipedia's article size parameters. Please note that no text has been changed: The entire History section from the main article merely got moved into History of Transnistria, lock stock and barrel. In its place is now a shorter summary which is merely a condensed version of the article, using key sentences drawn from the original article. All original text is kept "as is" with not a single edit/change, and can be seen here. - Mauco 03:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Housekeeping: [[History of Transnistria]] 

message: Mikkalai had deleted an important text:
The trafficking of women is a serious problem in the territory, with both women from Moldova and Transnistria and women transported through from other countries.     --213.186.49.115 17:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then re-add it without doing a wholesale revert of the article. —Khoikhoi 17:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very good as it was presented. No need for russian extremism here. --213.186.49.115 18:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mikkalai's deletion

message: It's a region not state unrecognised region --213.186.49.115 18:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can't edit Bonaparte, you're banned. —Khoikhoi 18:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I've temporarily {sprotected} this article, to stop, or at least slow dowb, the running battles involving IP address sockpuppets/open proxies. -- Karada 18:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. —Khoikhoi 19:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: So that would mean that "unrecognized region" is an "unrecognized term"? :-) - Mauco 04:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: That's my edit. Factory reopened, see talk comment above under the appropriate section. - Mauco 13:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: William, please refrain from feeding the trolls. ;) Just ignore him. —Khoikhoi 00:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry. Still learning ... - Mauco 11:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: region not state

message: I see that we still have not discovered an accurate official figure regarding the number of Russian troops stationed in Transnistria. However, I am certain that the number should be higher than 600. A few days ago, the Russian defence minister, Ivanov stated: “Well, fine. Let’s say, this isn’t a real military presence, but you know then they demand that Russia remove its peacekeepers from Trans-Dniester, where there are only 1,500 peacekeepers ... who have prevented a war.” Thus he puts the number of peacekeepers at 1500 which means that there are probably more soldiers in the region on other duties. Vox Populi (TSO) 20:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, we did the research and there is no disagreement on the numbers. It is 1500 total, and 350 - 360 of them are part of the Joint Control Commission. It could also be argued that the other 1150 are doing "peacekeeping" work because they are guarding the Colbasna/Kolbasna ammo dump, but they are not officially referred to as peacekeepers by any of the three parties involved (as far as I know), so let us not use that definition here either. The problem you refer to above, Vox, is that even though we found the numbers we never got around to updating the main article. I will do that now. - Mauco 11:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. - Mauco 11:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of Troops 

message: The article has a sentence which reads:
"At the census of 1989, the population was 546,400. At the time of the 2004 census, whose results are contested, the population was 555,500" (emphasis mine).
Contested by who? Or why? I can not find anything on this, so it is safer if we just remove those four words. But: If, however, there is a real issue of contention, then it would be interesting to add a few words on that, too: Is it contested because of the numbers? Or the ethnic percentages? Or just because Moldova does not agree that Transnistria should be allowed to freely conduct its own census without managers from Chisinau running the process (the "unrecognized elections" argument)? - Mauco 12:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the sentence refers less to the total number of inhabitants than to the ethnic distribution of the region. However, I am not aware of any direct criticism of specific aspects of that census (or actually any commentary whatsoever) from official sources or NGO's, so it might be best just to remove the sentence. Vox Populi (TSO) 15:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I commented out the same line from the German page about 2 months ago, requesting links to those contesting the census. No response was given as of yet. Who added that line here anyway? --Illythr 15:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I went back into the archive and I saw that technically it was I who added the line. Before the census results were made official and were only found on some bank's website, I added the numbers with the following caveat: "These numbers represent an estimate utilized by various sources. The results from the 2004 Transnistrian census have not yet been released by the PMR officially. The validity of these numbers is disputed, as they cannot be confirmed by an official source." I removed the warning after the results appeared on Olvia Press but then a few days later somebody put it back in and than reduced it to "the results are disputed", which was later changed to "the results are contested". In any case it is safe to remove it now unless someone finds some evidence of an actual dispute.Vox Populi (TSO) 15:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aha, I suspect that part was carried over into the German section as well. I think I'll pay it a visit...--Illythr 16:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The international organizations were not allowed to monitor it. BBC says: http://www.bbc.co.uk/romanian/news/story/2004/11/041111_transnistria_census.shtml"Valabilitatea recensământului organizat de un regim nerecunoscut este pusă la îndoială de autorităţile moldovene, dar şi de instituţiile internaţionale de profil, care nu vor putea monitoriza modul în care va fi chestionată populaţia şi vor fi sistematizate datele acestei chestionări. ""The validity of the census organized by a unrecognized regime is doubted by the Moldovan authorities, but also by the international institutions, who will not be able to monitor the way the people will be questioned and the way the resulted data will be processed." bogdan 16:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, Bogdan. That was exactly the information I was looking for! But that was then, in 2004 ... do you know if the results are still contested? Because there will always be complaints over methodology as long as they two sides are still at each others throats; how could we expect otherwise. But what matters for us, here, is to what extent we can consider the numbers reliable. So, does anyone currently (2006) doubt that there are 555,500 inhabitants, or that the ethnic makeup is misleadingly reported? That is the essence of what would constitute wrong census data. I am personally inclined to believe the numbers because of a) the lack of any subsequent dispute, after the official numbers were released and until now, and b) because the dataset is very detailed, given the exact number of inhabitants and the ethnic makeup of every single village. It would be easy for a census authority to put a slant on numbers when they are broad overall tallies, but harder to fudge them with such a deep, detailed level of small subsets. - Mauco 17:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Does anyone have or know of a site that shows the final results of the census, or at least more detailed results such as population by nationality (including the "others") or population by raion or cities?? Constantzeanu 18:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I saw a site like that a while back. I used it for an essay I wrote about Tighina. I think it's at Olvia-Press or some other PMR official site. --Node 21:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is a site in Russian. I remember it too, but not the URL. Very detailed: has the full breakdown and the latest numbers (those from the 2004 census). Meanwhile, in English there is only http://tdsu.idknet.com/region/english/atlas/dir22/chisl_text.shtm (text, which only opens well in Internet Explorer) and http://tdsu.idknet.com/region/english/atlas/dir22/chisl_k.jpg (the general census map). - Mauco 23:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  is it this site  ?Dapiks 04:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: There is also this page: "2004 Census: PMR urban, multilingual, multicultural" which has a good level of detail and which is in English. - Mauco 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Census contested? 

message: The following paragraph should be reworked: "Until the 1960s, the Moldovans made up the absolute majority in the region, but the ethnic proportions changed due to industrialization and the immigration of Russian and Ukrainian workers, encouraged by the Soviets. The trend continued after 1991, too, as the Moldovan population decreased between 1989 and 2004 from 41% to 32% of the total population. However, the Moldovans are still the largest single group of the region."
The main problem is the first sentence. See http://pridnestrovie.net/images/historicpopulation.gif which lists 41.8% in 1936, then 39.9% in 1989; thus not supporting a jump to an absolute majority (51%+) in the interim years. The above paragraph also doesn't match what History of Transnistria has to say: "Even prior to Russian rule, however, the area was already predominantly Slavic: The largest group on the left bank of the Dniester in the 18th century was made up of Ukrainian peasants." (source is Pal Kolstoe, University of Oslo )
It would be accurate, and also match the history article, if we emphasize that the area has traditionally been predominantly Slavic but with a large Moldovan minority. - Mauco 03:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I completely agree, I do not know who added the sentence but it is obvious that Moldovans never made up the majority in the region at any point. TSO1D 14:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If we take out that sentence then the rest of the paragraph doesn't make sense. It needs a slight rewrite, overall. - Mauco 15:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You forget that the borders of Soviet "Transnistria" changed several times. Dpotop 14:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Naturally. This is why it is important to view all prior census data through that prism. As far as this article is concerned, we are only interested in the numbers for present-day Transnistria (the territory claimed by the PMR government), which includes Tighina. The comparison table which I linked to above gives Charles King as it source, with reference to "data compiled by N. A. Troinitskii". King is author of the book "The Moldovans" and also several scholarly articles on the history of the region. I don't know why Tronitskii is but if King uses him or her as a source then the numbers ought to be somewhat reliable. At any rate, we are not in need of detailed data but just enough to be able to say, with a broad brush, that Moldovans have always been the largest minority in Transnistria but have never been an absolute majority. - Mauco 15:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ...No excuse for claiming not to know "NA Troinitskii" because we can just Google him. I did, and 6 results came up, as a source for very interesting and detailed historic census data! - Mauco 15:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnicity 

message: The official press release from the ECHR states that "The Court further held, unanimously, that Moldova and Russia were to take all the necessary steps to put an end to the arbitrary detention of the applicants still imprisoned and secure their immediate release." This is exactly what the text repeated. TSO1D 14:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, it makes sense then. I was getting my info from the case itself. Judge Casadevall expressed a partly dissenting opinion, joined by Judges Ress, Tulkens, Bîrsan and Fura-Sandström. Judges Ress and Loucaides each expressed a partly dissenting opinion. Judge Bratza expressed a partly dissenting opinion, joined by Judges Rozakis, Hedigan, Thomassen and Panţiru. Judge Kovler expressed a dissenting opinion. On the basis of this, I thought that the word "unanimously" didn't fit.And: As far as "arbitrary" is concerned, this is in the eye of the beholder. It probably seemed arbitrary to those who were arrested, but not to the prosecutor or to the other authorities in the courtroom at the time. In fact, even Ilascu's own people concede that the court went to great lengths to established its legitimacy. In http://www.ivantoc.org/white.htm there is an excerpt from paragraph 3 of the indictment: "(3)(*)...after the proclamation, on September 2, 1990, of the NMSSR (later on called the NMR), which is the legitimate successor of MASSR and MSSR, formed as a consequence of the violation of the human rights in the Republic of Moldavia, and of the statement of the Supreme Soviet of Moldavia, on June 23 1990, that the foundation of the MSSR, on August 2 1940, was illegal, and in keeping with the documents of the international law that confirm the right of the peoples to self-determination: the UN Charter, [here follows a long list of documents of international law], in keeping with the will of the people of the NMR, made manifest in referendums, citizens' meetings, decisions of the 2nd Congress of the People's Deputies at all levels, followed by free elections for the Supreme Soviet of the NMSSR (NMR), and when the Supreme Soviets adopted the Declaration of Sovereignty of the NMSSR [here follows a long list of references to events and domestic "legal" documents]..." - Mauco 15:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe the judges were not unanimous in criticizing Moldova and Russia for their past actions but were unanimous in recommending that they try to end the imprisonment of the other men. As for the arbitrariness of the arrest, the term was used in the press release, although it can justly be contested. I myself believe that the men were involved in some, if not all of the actions that they were accused of by the Transnistrian forces. TSO1D 16:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Intenational law still recognizes Moldovan sovereignty over Transnistria. The imprisonment of these guys is arbitrary because the Transnistrean sovereignty is not recognized. If you reject this criterion, then any extremist action can be considered "non-arbitrary", because you can always find some group of wackos to support it. Dpotop 17:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh I certainly don't accept the legitimacy of the Transnistrian authorities or their right to try the men in court. Nevertheless, I do believe that the Ilaşcu group was intent on "eliminating" some of the higher-rank rebels, which is what they have been accused of. TSO1D 17:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  In their defense (although they didn't use that particular defense in court) there was a low-level civil war going on. Ilascu and his men probably felt justified in doing what they did. The Ilascu group represented one end of the extreme, in fact so extremist that the Popular Front in Transnistria split in two and most Popular Front supporters at the time didn't support Ilascu's Resolution #6. Those who arrested him and his men represented the other extreme. - Mauco 21:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  One other thing: "Arbitrary" is synonymous with "random" in English, right? An "I don't like the way he is looking at me so let's grab him" kind of arrest? Well, I'd say that was certainly not the case... --Illythr 00:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, no, the more exact meaning used here is closer to "depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by standards, rules, or law" or "based on preference, bias, prejudice, or convenience rather than on reason or fact". (These are from dictionary.com btw). The court wanted to say that the decision to punish the men was not rather subjective and that the law was enforced irregularily to their detriment. TSO1D 01:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: ... Perhaps you meant "not rather objective", then? ... Ehh, whoops, sorry, didn't quite see the phrase the first time - it's "detention", not "arrest"! No further questions. --Illythr 05:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know, the section is not that long and I don't know whether we need an entire article just to detail it. I agree that it could be downsized a bit, but I think the best way to do this is to move some of the Ilaşcu information. I mean that forms the bulk of the section, whereas other similarly important events are described in only one sentence. Perhaps it would be possible to create an Ilaşcu Case article or something of the sort and only leave a sentence about it in the article with a link to that page. TSO1D 14:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please see this example: Human rights of Transnistria. The text has been moved verbatim and intact, with no changes. The reason why I prefer a separate article is because A) it is an interesting subject, which should be given more coverage, and B) having a separate article allows us to develop it more without the size constraints inherent in a main overview article. For instance: One of the things that I would like to see is how their new ombudsman post will work out: Will he actually claim independent powers and rule against the executive (as the PMR Constitutional Court often does) or is it just a "sham" post which will become a mouthpiece for the government and not perform the true rule of a real ombudsman? Either way, it has relevance to an article dealing with human rights of Transnistria. - Mauco 14:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, that looks fine. I agree that the text is long enough as it is, and if that section is expanded it definitely needs to be moved to a separate article. TSO1D 14:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes. In fact, I just moved a couple of paragraphs around (but didn't change the text) in order to give Human rights of Transnistria a separate section on the Ilie Ilaşcu Group. Over time, we can add similar sub-sections on other human rights violations, such as religious freedom or press freedom, and a section on the ombudsman (which I would personally like because it is a new and very interesting development, although it is still way to early to evaluate his performance and it could just be a sham). - Mauco 16:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ilaşcu case and the ECHR 

message: What is Russian interest in Transnistria ? It does not even border with Russia. Can this be explained in the article along with appropriate sources cited ? --Lysytalk 22:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My guess is that it is due to the fact that there are a lot of ethnic Russians living there (25%). I'm sure William would know more however. —Khoikhoi 22:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks for thinking that I would know more. Actually, this is an encyclopedia so we must go with the established view and be able to source it, with no original research. The official Russian position (of their Ministry of Foreign Affairs) is that their interest is due to the 30.4% ethnic Russians who live in Transnistria, or more precisely, the 56,000 people (10,1%) who are direct citizens of the Russian Federation. Unofficially, there is also a moral dimension in that Transnistria has been Russian land since the late 1700's and has never, historically, been part of Moldova proper. This is sometimes heard by members of the Duma, speaking on their own and not on behalf of the state. It is not the official state position of Russia and therefore, in my opinion, should not be included in the article. There is also a third angle, which is sometimes claimed by Moldova. According to that, Russia's interest in Transnistria is a sort of replay of how the Soviet Union created MASSR in order to use as a beachhead to take over Bessarabia and bring it under its sway. Moldova, according to this theory, claims that Russia has an interest in an independent Transnistria in order to prevent Moldova from a) becoming strong economically, or b) integrating with Europe. Needless to say, this is also not the official Russian position and in my opinion it should not be included in the article. - Mauco 22:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hah hahhaha haha ha.... hahah hahaha... That`s a good one... Maucov "knows more".... lol... Maucov is an ignorant... I really suggest finding yourself a new hobby... greier 10:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  With this kind of personal attacks you are discrediting your position, whatever it may be, greier. "Maucov" is not a Russian name, either. ;) --Illythr 18:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

text: In my view Russia's interest stemms from two basic roots, an ethnical/ideological one and a geopolitical one. On one side the region's largely pro-Russian populace (including even a great proportion of the ethnic non-Russians) found sympathizers in Russia's poltical circles and press. On the other hand, Russia believes that maintaining a military presence in the region can consolidate its position in this part of Europe and preserving the "frozen" conflicts (not only in Moldova but Georgia also) would give them more influence over in the ex-Soviet spage. TSO1D 22:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The "more influence over ex-Soviet space" is of course a perfectly valid goal for Russia's own foreign policy, and not by any means unique to Russia. In fact, most countries usually strive to get some sort of leverage in their near-abroad. But the interesting analysis is to which extent Transnistria was created for this specific purpose by Russia (which it wasn't) or if Russia is using its pull in Transnistria as a way to influence Moldova (which is much more likely, although officially denied). - Mauco 23:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  TSO1D is also correct in identifying that the pro-Russian populace is not limited just to ethnic Russians. I am always surprised that some of the most vocal proponents of independent statehood for Transnistria are Grigorii Marakutsa and Valerianus Tulgar, both ethnic Moldovans. Why is that? - Mauco 23:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the majority of the region's population has traditionally had a more pro-Russian and more "conservative" mentality than other areas in that part. I believe that this mentality was shaped in different groups by different causes. The earlier Russians living there tended to view the region as an outpost of the Empire and tended to be more appreciative of the need for Russia to protect them from the alien and often hostile states surrounding them. The region has a large urban population, where the non-Russian inhabitants were more rapidly assimilated into Russian society and culture. Transnistria has never been part of Romania and for most of its modern history it has been part of Russia in its various forms. During the interbellic period, numerous Romanians fled there who were rather anti-Romania and helped establish the Moldovenist infrastructure of the MASSR. In conclusion, all of these factors converged and ethnic lines were blurred as the majority of the population, especially the more politically active urban sector gained a sense of loyalty to Russia and acceptance of Russian culture. TSO1D 01:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You sometimes see the same thing in Central America, vis-a-vis the United States. It would be patronizing to say that those politicians have been brainwashed or that it is a Stockholm syndrome mentality. - Mauco 13:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that they have been brainwashed as others claim. I believe that due to the distinct demographic structure of the region and its history distinct from Moldova and Romania, the local population formed its own identity during the Russian Empire and USSR which tends to be more pro-Russian. Even during the USSR, when the MSSR was still intact, there was a certain degree of tensions between professionals from Transnistria and Bessarabia as in the early history of the Soviet Republic, Transnistrians were favored in receiving higher positions (especially political) as they were seen more trustworthy than the Bessarabians who had been part of Romania for 20 years. Transnistria also was more industrialized than Moldova and attracted people from other parts of the Union, who were more loyal to the Union as a whole than Moldova. In a way Transnistria tended to be more "cosmopolitan" and the natural lingua franca was Russian and Russian culture was the medium that united people of various nationalities. TSO1D 14:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  TSO1D, my deepest apologies to you if you thought that my mention of "brainwash" was directed at you. It was very clear from your comment that you have a much more nuanced, realistic view of this. The brainwash-argument is way too simple an explanation, and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It is condescending, as if those who don't agree with us are less intelligent than we are. Take someone like Grigore Mărăcuţă who was born in Grigoriopol and who is an ethnic Moldovan, clearly mature, knowledgeable about politics, educated, intelligent, yet a staunch ally of Igor Smirnov and for the past 15 years one of the leading architects of PMR. It would be patronizing to call him brainwashed, and his position is apparently shared by the majority of the ethnic group which he represents. According to Swedish-Danish Slavist researcher Martha-Lisa Magnusson, 70% of Transnistrian-born ethnic Moldovans supported the independence of Transnistria and voted in favor. - Mauco 15:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: It is a classic border area. The census lists as many as 35 nationalities in the small stretch of land which is Transnistria. Most of them are not recent immigrants, but have roots that go back centuries. In the case of the Russians, a lot of them came during Soviet rule (just like with all other former USSR republics), but some of them have deeper, more historical roots. In the tenth century the territory of present day Transnistria was part of Kiev Russia. Thus, Russians regard it as having Slavic origins. - Mauco 15:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The Russian citizens probably requested citizenship right after the fall of the USSR based on their Russian nationality, which was still possible at that point (but much more problematic today). TSO1D 15:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, if I recall well, ethnic Russians from Transnistria asking for Russian Federation citizenship were granted it pretty easily. It's the same for the ethnic Romanians/Moldovans from Moldova, which were granted Romanian citizenship pretty easily (upon request, of course).  Dpotop 18:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  Yes. Those 10.1% are not newcomers to Transnistria. If anything, the net migration flow has been of people leaving Transnistria and going to Russian. I have seen a research paper from San Francisco which claims that approximately 100,000 Transnistrians were internally displaced or became refugees as a result of the war of Transnistria in 1992, and that most of them settled in Russia, not Moldova. It would be interesting to source this or to get independent confirmation of this. In addition, while speaking of citizenship, there are still classified ads in Transnistria from lawyers who offer to arrange Russian citizenships. And at least one member of Transnistria's Supreme Soviet, Galina Antyufeeva, has openly campaigned on a platform whose main point is that it should be made easier for Transnistrians to get Russian citizenship. Officially, of course, the Russian position is that Transnistria is part of Moldova so that makes it very hard today even for the ethnic Russians who want to be citizens of the Russian Federation. - Mauco 16:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that the difficulties for Russians to obtain Russian citizenship are directly or exclussively linked to the recogniztion of Transnistria as part of Moldova. By the second half of the 90's Russia implemented more selective repatriation laws for all ethnic Russians, regardless of where they lived. Romania did the same. In the beginning after the fall of Communists there, they allowed virtually anyone of Romanian ethnicity to rapidly acquire Romanian citizenship but then severly limited this policy. TSO1D 17:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  These laws (or their application) have since changed, I believe. Dpotop 18:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian interest in Transnistria  

message: My edit summary should have read:
:(+ SIMPLE)
I apologise, because I always use summaries while editing articles. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 21:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'm sorry 

message: It's not clear on the map that Transnistria is the blue part and Moldova is the light yellow part.  Without a description, the blue part looks like some kind of lake.  Badagnani 23:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: At the very minimum, the map needs to have the words "Transnistria" on the blue part and "Moldova" and the pale yellow. But there are also some other problems with this current map. For instance: The weird indent at Dubăsari, which cuts Transnistria in half just below its narrowest point and seems to stop just a few hundred meters before Ukraine. What on earth is that? And what does it represent? Then there is the fact that the rest of the blue part doesn't correspond fully to the territory claimed by the government of Transnistria in its constitution, Article 14 . We can no doubt do a better map here. If we do, it ought to represent the territory under the de facto control of Transnistria's government. That would mean all of the left bank, except for the villages Dorotcaia, Cosnita, Cocieri, Malovata, Pohrebea and Pirita (all in the Administrative Region of Dubăsari), and it would also mean including part of the right bank, specifically Tighina and the villages of Chiţcani, Mereneshti and Gîsca. - Mauco 00:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  what about varnitsa and protagaylovka? are there under de facto control of transnitria, or only claimed by them? Anonimu 15:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can not comment on Protagaylovka, but Varnitsa is claimed by Transnistria (in the Constitution), however, it is under the control of the Joint Control Commission (peacekeeping forces or "peacekeeping" forces, depending on your point of view) and it has a mayor who is pro-Moldovan and very loyal to Moldova. He keeps the Moldovan flag and the state insignia of Moldova on the wall in his office. Varnitsa is generally considered to be a Moldovan suburb to Bendery (which is Transnistrian) because it is not under the control of Transnistria. - Mauco 01:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problem with map 

message: A lot of these don't have any text on them, and some of them are also "orphaned" now from last year's version of the article, so let us clean that up. I think it will make the article more useful, especially for researchers so they actually know where these footnotes lead to for more information. - Mauco 15:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, none of the notes are cited correctly according to Wikipedia policy. About the orphaned items, I assume you mean just the sources presented in the "references" section, not the footnotes? TSO1D 15:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am working on it now (hope I won't get reverted). Several issues which are all related to housekeeping and cleanup. We need to cite the notes correctly, as per policy. Then, basically, by "orphaned" I am referring to references which were forgotten and left to litter in the main article when we created specialized articles on other subjects. We have several of these now, such as Human rights in Transnistria, History of Transnistria, Disputed status of Transnistria, and many more, and the references to what was previously part of the main article should have of course been moved when we moved the content over there, too. It didn't happen because they weren't referenced with the "ref" tag, but I am working on all of that now. And will also add the correct titles to the footnotes. Only one single, solitary out of a total of 8 has this currently. - Mauco 16:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notes of references 

message: Node, no offense meant, but in your latest edit you sound a bit too much like an apologist for Transnistria. Isn't there a better way that we can present the whole thing more objectively, in just one or two sentences? By the way, we have a article on this as well: See Moldovan schools in Transnistria (and let us add that to the 'See also' under human rights subsection of the article. - Mauco 16:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made some edits as the original wording was rather strange. Alternatively, we could just place an additional "see also" dot for the whole issue. Actually, that thing with accreditation was the official (Transnistrian) reason for the closings. I'm surprised in wasn't mentioned anywhere before. --Illythr 17:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have added the "See also" link. I would not object if you decide to remove the whole paragraph as you suggest, considering that a) it is solved and it has been a non-issue for two years now, and b) the See also link is in place, under the appropriate section heading ("Violation of human rights"). - Mauco 18:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, the first part of the paragraph refers to the (apparent) inability of ethnic Moldovans to study using the Latin script and can't be removed for as long as that issue remains. Node has probably confused it with the one about the schools when he added that sentece. That issue with the schools appears to have been solved, however, so I left but a small sentence about it. Although I'd say it still needs some sort of retouche... --Illythr 21:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moldovan schools 

message: This article has been fully protected, primarily due to the few reversions at the top of the page. I expect to lift this soon. --HappyCamper 03:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The present conflict revolves around the issue of keeping the phrase "with the aid of Russian forces" at the end of the introduction. That part has remained part of the introduction for prolonged period and has remained undisputed until recently. I believe it refers to the presence of Russian troops (and not only the peacekeeping contingent) which are widely seen as guaranteeing that state's de facto independence (by all sides). This does not imply that the forces are responsible for daily security in the region, I realize that that is provided by the PMR's interior ministry. TSO1D 03:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is best for the article is probably best left to the regulars who edit this page to decide. I'll lift the protection for now. If reversions start creeping in regarding that particular phrase, I'll be inclined to protect again. The intensity of the reversions suggests to me that a rewording might be necessary (but not necessarily so). For something like this, providing a reason for reverting only in the edit summary is insufficient. If the phrase should really be there, I would suggest that a post regarding that phrase should be made on this talk page - this is just another way of reaching out to the anoymous user. As suggested below, if that particular editor is sincere, they would participate in rational discussion here. Otherwise, I suppose the edits can be treated as you did before. I hope this helps moving forward. --HappyCamper 05:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: It would be interesting to hear the anonymous editor's arguments for why the "aid of Russian forces" sentence should be removed. Personally, I might be somewhat inclined to agree with him or her, depending on the argument. This is not because TSO1D is wrong (indeed, the troops are widely seen by all sides as guaranteeing the state's de facto independence) but just because I can see how the current phrasing could be misinterpreted easily, especially by a casual reader who is unfamiliar with the nuances of the situation.- Mauco 04:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe the phrase can be avoided by combining the last two sentences. Instead of: "The sovereignty of Transnistria is an issue of contention. Transnistria continues to claim independence and maintains sovereignty over its territory with the aid of Russian forces." we could write "Although the sovereignty of Transnistria is an issue of contention, the PMR continues to claim independence and is able to exercise control over its territory." TSO1D 13:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be interested in some rationales for the apparent Russian support for sovereignty, both as stated by the Russian government and theorized by people who watch this sort of thing. -Easytoremember 08:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Disputed status of Transnistria is probably the best place to start your research. There is also Four_Pillars_of_Transnistria but this is featured much less prominently. - Mauco 12:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Aid of Russian forces" 

message: Moldpres News Agency, the state news agency of the Republic of Moldova, wrote an article which analyzes the friction between Yevgeny Shevchuk (whom they see as the representative or "puppet" of Sheriff) on one hand, and Igor Smirnov on the other. It includes the following sentence: "They have a very big business, which is vulnerable to the region’s executive power. If it is to take into consideration that Shevchuk has no political biography of his own, then it is obvious that Smirnov, Vladimir Antyufeyev and the entire executive power do not struggle with the speaker, but with Sheriff’s economic power and political ambitions."This seems to contradict our article's claims that Sheriff is owned by one of Igor Smirnov's sons. In the same article: "Sheriff realizes that if the power ... will push hard on it, nobody physically will be able to help it" (emphasis mine) and "the attack against the centre started by discrediting Sheriff’s potential candidate to the presidential seat". One possible explanation (which Moldpres does not attempt) could be that the younger Smirnov had a fallout with his father and instead wants Yevgeny Shevchuk to be President. But Oleg Smirnov, the second of the two sons, as recently as two days ago held a meeting in front of nearly 300 leaders and public figures and stated that he supports his father, Igor Smirnov, for reelection. - Mauco 21:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sheriff