Talk:Cailleach

message: Once again the neo pagans subvert celtic mythology for their own purposes.  This article reads just like the new agey, neo-pagan claptrap you can buy at your local wiccan bookstore.  There is little reference to authoritative work to support any of what is written. The section about "the Cailleach" in folklore reads as if people in Ireland and Scotland still believe this.  Please add a disclaimer that the "folklore" section is really just a neo-pagan revision of a very thinly attested aspect of celtic mythology. --12.181.190.99 (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  NeoPagan Bias 

message: After boldly rewriting, sourcing, and adding pictures to this, I decided to be bold and nominate it for Good Article status in the category of Mythology. If anyone who hasn't contributed substantially to the article would like to participate in the review process, that would be helpful. Or if you think you can further improve the article, that would be great, too. 
I vacillate on whether this should be longer. It could conceivably be expanded, and the legends split into Irish and Scottish sections, but I actually like it the way it is now.  I think it's a nice little article. If we were to go for Feature status, we'd want to expand it, imho, but for now, I'm interested to see if people think it at least merits a GA. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Article nomination

message: Hello! I am Rudget, and will be carrying out this GA review. I lived in Ireland until I was 9, and I'd heard about the Cailleach, but this has enlightened me more. But getting back to the review (!), it looks great on first appearances. Regards, Rudget.talk 16:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: GA review (see here for criteria)
#It is reasonably well written.
#:a (prose):  [reasonably well written, just needs another look over by the nominator] b (MoS): 
#It is factually accurate and verifiable.
#:a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
#It is broad in its coverage.
#:a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
#It follows the neutral point of view policy.
#:a (fair representation):  b (all significant views): 
#It is stable.
#: (It is stable, and as it's been solely edited by Kathryn (who has extended quite a bit) I doubt any harm will come to it)
#It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
#:a (tagged and captioned):  b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales): 
#Overall: 
#:a Pass/Fail: 
Here is a greater analysis of my review:
*I can find no original research, but some claims like, and I quote "..Legend has it that if she intends to make the winter last a good while longer, she will make sure the weather on February 1 is bright and sunny, so she can gather plenty of firewood to keep herself warm in the coming months", has no reference provided and was changed by me where Feb 1. was changed to February 1st.
*All images were appropriately tagged, and (if any?) fair use images were rationalised.
*Only a few grammar mistakes, most corrected by me.
*More references are needed, for example in the lead - last sentence (The word simply means 'old woman' in modern Scottish Gaelic, and has been applied to numerous mythological figures in both Scotland and Ireland)
*If possible use inline citations.
*All current references provided are reliable and verifiable.
*Most prose is excellent, some patches though.
===General Comments===
There's a few problems that have been described above, like the lack of more sources and some patchy prose, but everything else is good and I am willing to pass  this article on the assumption that as Kathryn is the sole editor, these problems will be easily and swiftly recognised and corrected. Congratulations to the Kathryn and all the other editors invovled with the article. Rudget.talk 13:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Thank you for your thorough and helpful review! I think all the places needing sourcing are covered in footnotes already in the article (usually a sentence or two later), but I will add additional footnotes to make it clearer. If I can't find an exact quote in an existing source, the dicdef of "cailleach" I can pull from a Gaelic dictionary. I wrote this in a less dry style than many other articles I work on, but decided to go for it and see what people thought. Others have worked on the article, though not recently. Here and there are sentences that are pretty much the way I found them but, in general, since I started working on it any other edits to the article have been fairly small. This is what it looked like when I first found it: . Thanks again for your work on this. I'll see if I can pull the books out and deal with the additional sourcing some time today or tomorrow. Slán, - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for replying to the comments left by me during the assessment. I see you've carried out all the correction notes I set out. It's nice to see a reviewed article go that extra bit further, thanks. Le gach dea-mhéin, Rudget.talk 12:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Good Article Review

message: There's a few problems that have been described above, like the lack of more sources and some patchy prose, but everything else is good and I am willing to pass  this article on the assumption that as Kathryn is the sole editor, these problems will be easily and swiftly recognised and corrected. Congratulations to the Kathryn and all the other editors invovled with the article. Rudget.talk 13:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your thorough and helpful review! I think all the places needing sourcing are covered in footnotes already in the article (usually a sentence or two later), but I will add additional footnotes to make it clearer. If I can't find an exact quote in an existing source, the dicdef of "cailleach" I can pull from a Gaelic dictionary. I wrote this in a less dry style than many other articles I work on, but decided to go for it and see what people thought. Others have worked on the article, though not recently. Here and there are sentences that are pretty much the way I found them but, in general, since I started working on it any other edits to the article have been fairly small. This is what it looked like when I first found it: . Thanks again for your work on this. I'll see if I can pull the books out and deal with the additional sourcing some time today or tomorrow. Slán, - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for replying to the comments left by me during the assessment. I see you've carried out all the correction notes I set out. It's nice to see a reviewed article go that extra bit further, thanks. Le gach dea-mhéin, Rudget.talk 12:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: General Comments

message: In regard to Marian McNeill's reference in her work "The Silver Bough" that Cailleach becomes Bride. I also noticed similar tradition with corn dollies.
From “The Red-Haired Girl from the Bog: The Landscape of Celtic Myth and Spirit” by Patricia Monaghan (writing about Ireland):
“Once cut, the Cailleach sheaf was treated reverently. Dressed as an old woman or plaited into a cross, it hung in house or barn until replaced by the next year’s sheaf. In many areas, the Cailleach sheaf provided material for spring’s Brigit crosses – the same hag-into-virgin motif we encounter in our tales of Niall visiting the well.”
An analogy can be found in “Celtic Christianity and nature: early Irish and Hebridean traditions‎" by Mary Low; for the Caillach was typical made from the last sheaf.
“Then at the beginning of February, at the festival of Bride or Brigit, it was the custom in the Hebrides to take a sheaf from the previous year's harvest, form it into a female figure, and carry it from house to house. This effigy was known as the Bride or little Bride. Insome places, the older women of the townland would make her a cradle. These were similar in Ireland.”
However I find that in some districts in Scotland the dolly was not called the Cailleach, but instead calling it the Maiden.
Muireagain (talk) 19:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cailleach become Bride the Maiden? 

message: Here is another story (as opposed to the tales of Loch Ba, Isle of Mull) from Scotland that has the Cailleach visiting a well to renew here youth:
From "The white wife; with other stories, collected by Cuthbert Bede" (1865)
"THE PRATTLING OLD WIFE.
MANY years ago, there lived in Kildavee, Cantire, a Chailleach bhearo, or prattling old wife, who possessed wonderful gifts. She had discovered a medicinal well, to which she repaired every seventh year, in order that she might get her youth renewed; and many a time search has been made for this well, but it has not yet been discovered. But this might arise from the circumstance, that, whenever the old Wife paid her visit to the well for the purpose of renewing her youth, she was very careful not to meet with any person on the road: for, if she did, it would deprive the waters of the well of their medicinal charm.
..."
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA124&dq=Cantire%20%22seventh%20year%22%20renew&ei=b9Z3Te7iGoqcgQftqO3TBQ&ct=result&id=ZtoBAAAAQAAJ&output=text
The seven year cycle reminds me of seven periods of youth in 'The Lament of the Old Woman of Beare'.
Revue celtique for 1879-1880 in regard to the tale of 'The Prattling Old Wife' tells of a "fine well at Oranmore [Co. Galway], which runs wine every seventh year, is called from her, Tobar-na-Caillíghe Béaraighe."
http://www.archive.org/stream/revueceltique04gaid/revueceltique04gaid_djvu.txt
Muireagain (talk) 19:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does the Cailleach become a Maiden? 

message: 1792 "Curious Stones, l£c.—On a high part of that ridge of hills which separates Stralachlan from Glendaruel, there is a very large stone, remarkable for its situation. There is a descent from it on every side. The prospect from it is very extensive. It is called Cailieach-vear or vera. In the dark ages of superstition, it was personisied, and said to have a considerable property in cattle. Cailieach-vear makes a conspicuous figure in the marvellous tales of the country people, over a great great part of the West Highlands. Her residence was said to be on the highest mountains ; that she could step with ease, and in a moment, from one district to another; when offended, that she caused a flood to come from the mountains, which destroyed the corns, and laid the low grounds under water; that one of these floods was the origin of Lochow, in Lom, of Locheck, in this parish, and of manyother lakes; that the people paid her a superstitious veneration, and were under dreadful apprehensions of her anger."
From "The statistical account of Scotland: Volume 4" edited by Sir John Sinclair
1793 "Bera the aged dwelt in the cave of the rock. She was the daughter of Griannan the sage: long was the line of her father, and she was the last of her race. Large and fertile were her possessions; hers the beautiful vale below, and hers the cattle which roamed on the hills around. To Bera was committed the charge of that awful spring, which, by the appointment of fate, was to prove so fatal to the inheritance of her fathers, and to her father's race. Before the sun should withdraw his beams, she was to cover the spring with a stone, on which sacred and mysterious characters were impressed. One night this was forgotten by the unhappy Bera. Overcome with the heat and chase of the day, she was seized with sleep before the usual time of rest. The confined waters of the mountain burst forth into the plain below, and covered that large expanse, now known by the name of the Lake of Aw. The third morning, Bera awaked from her sleep; she went to remove the stone from the spring; but behold no stone was there! She looked to the inheritance of her tribe: she shrieked! The mountain shook from its base! Her spirit retired to the ghosts of her fathers, in their light and airy halls." Ossian.
From "The statistical account of Scotland: Volume 8" edited by Sir John Sinclair
1862 "according to Mr Macgregor, and the cailleach, (kayll-ech) carlin, is represented as sitting on the ground, beating it with a mell, to keep down the grass; and when, in defiance of her grim and vigorous exertions, the grass sprung up all around her, she threw away the mell in despair, and vanished into air." 
From "A treatise on the language, poetry and music of the Highland clans" by Donald Campbell (lieut.), Page 51.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.44.146 (talk) 02:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Older Historical References to the Cailleach 

message: The sacred Text referenced says, "In the days when rivers broke loose and lochs were made, Beira set herself to build the mountains of Scotland. When at work she carried on her back a great creel filled with rocks and earth. Sometimes as she leapt from hill to hill her creel tilted sideways, and rocks and earth fell from it into lochs and formed islands. Many islands are spoken of as "spillings from the creel of the big old woman"" and therefore I changed apron to basket.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.92.32.180 (talk) 05:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apront Vs Creel 

message: Requesting a spoken version of this article to help with pronunciation. --MarsInSVG (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoken Wikipedia Version by Irish or Scottish accent Wikipedian 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Cailleach. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061009222651/http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/calleach.html to http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/calleach.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061009222651/http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/calleach.html to http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/calleach.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071124210331/http://www.rte.ie/radio1/hagsqueensandwisewomen/ to http://www.rte.ie/radio1/hagsqueensandwisewomen/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:57, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: We might want to merge the Beira article into this one. I'm not a folklore expert, but as far as I can tell Beira and Cailleach are just two names for the same figure. The Beira page is a stub anyways, and this article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Beira will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. I think this makes sense, but I'd like to hear the opinion of someone more knowledgeable on the topic than myself before anything gets changed. Aquaticonions (talk) 19:00, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: . ~Asarlaí 20:32, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from [[Beira (mythology)]] 

message: JK Rowling has opened a sexual-violence support center in Edinburgh, as announced 12 December 2022, as per Julie Bindel, JK Rowling works her magic again, https://unherd.com/2022/12/jk-rowling-works-her-magic-again/:
"Situated in the heart of Edinburgh, it is a service for women who have been subjected to men’s violence. It is named after the Scottish goddess of Winter, as Rowling explained: 'Beira rules over the dark part of the year, handing over to her sister, Bride, when summer comes again. Beira represents female wisdom, power, and regeneration. Hers is a strength that endures during the difficult times, but her myth contains the promise that they will not last for ever.'
I'll expect some more attention to this article shortly. Rorybowman (talk) 04:25, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beira's Place, Edinburgh