Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 9

message: The aim of the project has not yet clearly been elucidated. However, my past experience with Wikiproject "Clinical medicine" is:
* When experienced editors exchange information, the quality of articles goes up due to coordination
* Articles may be announced for peer review or floated for comments
* Standards (such as Hebrew pronunciation!!) can be agreed upon
* It makes edit wars briefer and less damaging
* It helps in coordinated efforts against vandalism
* Editors who are particularily knowledgable or have access to resources can do quick checks on facts.
Crossposted from IZAK's talk page:
I think a Wikiproject would be a massive step in the right direction. At least it will offer some unity in the otherwise very much fragmented approach to Judaism articles on Wikipedia (although IZAK's work on categorisation has brought a lot of structure). JFW | T@lk 15:52, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Aim and scope

message: Sorry to "intrude" here (as a non-Jew), but I just made a lot of changes to Tetragrammaton, which I would like to have reviewed by someone coming from a Jewish background. (Transcription of the name is probably touchy here -- I hope that it has been handled tactfully.) Thanks, and Happy New Year! -- Mpolo 14:03, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
:No intrusion, please feel welcome!  This project is for those who want to write encyclopedia articles about Judaism; everyone alike who shares that interest is welcome, Jewish or not.  If fact, it would be good to have a few more people like you around.  Sign up for the project!
:I don't know if the people here have any special expertise in Tetragrammaton (what a word :-), I certainly don't.  But some of us will try to take a look. Dovi 19:52, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
:I've looked over the article, it seems reasonable enough to me. Jayjg 20:43, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tetragrammaton 

message: Given recent skirmishes by some of our participants, I must state most forcefully that it is really unwise to accuse other users of "Anti-Semitism". Unless we can read their minds, we cannot state (or even suspect) their motives, which is even more an issue online than it is in personal conversation.
Of course there are those clear-cut cases (such as the spate of Holocaust deniers on Jew and Holocaust), but these blokes generally edit as anons, and are easier to dispose of. Please, please, please do not feed the trolls by calling them Anti-Semites. They will suddenly become morally indignant, start calling you for arbitration and other ills.
Can we please agree to this? I know it is mainly an issue on articles outside the scope of this WikiProject, but one can never be too careful. JFW | T@lk 19:53, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed.--Josiah 20:29, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: JFW, I've pressed so hard for this agreement, right from the start of my involvement in this project, and I'm very pleased to see you pressing for it as well.  You are quite right, we cannot know the motives of editors, and there has been an extremely strong tendency in the past to "cry wolf", with many (in my view) unwarranted accusations of anti-Semitism.  As I've said before, it generally does more harm than good, making un-involved editors pre-disposed to ignore real cases of anti-Semitism because of all the false claims.  The current situation is that one of the major abusers in this area is now banned from Wikipedia, in part because of consistently making these claims.  I fear the other major abuser in this are may also be banned, even though he has made a huge overall contribuation to Wikipedia, particularly in areas related to Judaism and Israel. I cannot support your efforts strongly enough. Jayjg 22:39, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: The Anti-word

message: Do we have an article on citing the Talmud? When I'm bringing in articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia, their abbreviations are oftem pretty arcane. I'd like to have clear guidance of how to get from these to something more generally readable. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:20, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
:In Talmud there is some stuff about how to cite. It also has a list of the 63 Mishnaic tractates. I can always help. JFW | T@lk 02:35, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talmudic citation 

message: This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view.  In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein   |  Talk  22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  announcement of new policy proposal 

message: Shalom, consider youself invited to the portal WP:Israel and the WP:WNBI notice board. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 09:28, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:WNBI]] & [[WP:Israel]] 

message: I got this idea after seeing :Template:Ancient Egyptians. Yes, I know there is :Category:Torah people but if you like the idea of classifying who begot whom, let's first agree on scope/title and then work on format/content. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 07:59, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Template:Torah genealogy]] 

message: How would contributors feel about extending the scope of this project to incorporate Jewish culture, history, and so forth. There is currently no central place to discuss topics relating to secular Jewish culture, and the like. (In particular, I was looking for a place to raise the issue of Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 November 2#Category:Jewish American actors.) We could start a new Wikiproject for Jewish history and culture, but perhaps it's not such a great idea to separate "Jews and Jewishness" from "Judaism".  RMoloney (talk) 22:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Most users in this project can contribute to such topics also, and so there is little need to create another group. jnothman talk 14:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

text: If the same community is used, care should be taken not to portray secular Jewish culture as being "second-best" or to suggest that the religion is a duty of the people, something that efforts of this kind both online and off often tend to overlook. I've seen it happen often, and it leads to a lot of unhappiness. --Improv 14:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, but think that the current group is just as likely (if not more) to malign secular perspectives as any with broader coverage. jnothman talk 23:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remit of this project 

message: Hi everyone - I've started outlining (and will soon start filling in) an article I've titled Dialectics in Judaism, which will serve as an overview of historical and contemporary disputes within Judaism, e.g., Hillel and Shammai; Pharisees, Saducees, and Essenes; Mitnagdim and Hassidim, etc.  The article is intended as an overview of what these disputes were about, and what there outcomes were (to the extent that they have been resolved).  Links to relevant in-depth articles should give the interested reader an opportunity to immerse himself/herself in them.  Please weigh in on whether the current "list" is comprehensive on the major disputes, and of course with edits as I start writing.  --Leifern 23:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article stub on dialectics in Judaism 

message: See Tosafists that is marked as needing a Wikipedia "upgrade" IZAK 06:28, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tosafists 

message: Please help round up the pd images from the Jewish Encyclopedia for this category! --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Jewish Encyclopedia images]] 

message: The previous page being extraordinarily ugly, I've edited the Text of the Kaddish section of the Kaddish article.
# While it includes near-encyclopaedic detail of traditional variations, it may better belong in Wikisource. Any opinions?
# I am missing translations for some lines from a nusach that is not my own.
# Some general copyediting would be nice: I'm too tired to check the niqqud or transcription or spelling now.
Thanks. jnothman talk 16:56, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm...I don't think the text is quite long enough to send it to wikisource (although I would support adding it to wikisource, I wouldn't support removing it from the article).  That said, the fonts you used are...unpleasing...especially the italicized versions... TomerTALK 04:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The fonts used were the fonts used by the prior editor of that text. I am not sure what to do about Hebrew fonts when you want the vowels to show correctly. Having Ezra SIL on my computer, I wouldn't say it looks unpleasing as such, though... What do you suggest? Thanks for the feedback. jnothman talk 05:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I dunno...something sans serif maybe wouldn't look so pixelated.  Also, what's the source for the text?  I see "vechayim `aleinu ve`al kol yisra'el" everywhere, even "vechayim tovim `aleinu ve`al kol yisra'el", but not "vechayim lanu ul'khol yisra'el". Tomertalk 01:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Kaddish]] 

message: Someone created kehilla as an ad, but I've turned it into a stub with potential. There is a lot to write about the history of the kehilla, especially its role in the maintenance of Jewish autonomy in the Middle Ages, and its relevance in minhagim. Expansion is welcome. JFW | T@lk 16:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kehilla 

message: See the verses in :Category:Hebrew Bible verses with the two samples so far: Genesis 1:1, and Genesis 1:2. Is this the way the Torah verses should be "presented"? (Compare with the verses in :Category:New Testament verses.) At what point should the classical teachings of famous meforshim be inserted, and in what way and how much? The time to decide on this is now, because at this stage the "project" is still being "formed" by User:Neutrality alone. Thank you. IZAK 03:01, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Move to Wikisource/Wikibooks or delete Frikle 12:17, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Category:Hebrew Bible verses (talk moved from main page)

message: Important: In the wake of IZAK's inquiry on this topic, and with strong support from Danny, a Mikraot Gedolot Project was launched at Hebrew Wikisource.
We are working on the five megillot. We did a good chunk of Ruth, and Mikraot Gedolot Eikhah will hopefully be about half finished by Tisha be-Av, keeping to a schedule of 1-2 verses per day. Take a look at איכה, especially, to see what a wonderful and powerful tool this can be.
The Hebrew version already has a lot of wonderful, high quality examples, though we are still getting started. It is possible to contribute parallel material in English. Dovi 13:04, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
There is a related VFD on this subject at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Individual Bible verses, and a connected survey at Wikipedia:Bible source text. ~~~~ 11:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mikraot Gedolot Project (talk moved from main page)

message: Considering the Jewish outlook of history as a sequence of eras, vaguely, Adam, Enosh, Mabul, Migdal Bavel, Avos, Mitrayim, (end pre-Torah-giving) (start post-Torah-giving) midbar, navi, galus bavel, anshei keneses hagedolah, zugos, tanaim, amoraim, savorai, gaonim, rishonim, achronim, current. Perhaps a table can be given with links to each (that have a page) and the table be put in as a sidebar to the approriate "era" pages. I saw this done by the Ecumenical council (hope this isn't blasphemy :P), where each separate council page lists all the others, and thought it was a great idea. --Chacham  20:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Era Table (talk moved from main page)

message: Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 17:22, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hebrew naming conventions (moved from main page) 

message: I have drafted a proposal for a new voluntary association on Wikipedia (joining groups like the Wikipedia:The Business and Economics Forum and the Wikipedia:Harmonious editing club) to promote discussion of a sort of system of expert review on Wiki. Please take a look and add your ideas. 172 02:33, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:Forum for Encyclopedic Standards]] (talk moved from main page)

message: I added a short new page today, called Sanhedrin (tractate). Please feel free to take a look, comment, edit, whatever will make it better. Do you think we should move the old Sanhedrin article to Sanhedrin (court) and make a new Sanhedrin redirect page? Joaquin Murietta 05:39, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps a disambig is better. Let's see what the others think. JFW | T@lk 14:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My recommendation: make a Sanhedrin (disambiguation), leave Sanhedrin where it is now, create a redirect from Sanhedrin (court) to Sanhedrin, and put :This article is about the Jewish religious court, for other uses of "Sanhedrin", see Sanhedrin (disambiguation) on the top of Sanhedrin.  TomerTALK 21:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: New page [[Sanhedrin (tractate)]] (talk moved from main page)

message: I finally wrote up Sefer Hamitzvot. Comments please. JFW | T@lk 14:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I added some wikilinks and did a bit of copyediting, as well as made a coupla comments on the talk page.  TomerTALK 21:48, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And added an interwiki link to :he:ספר המצוות לרמב"ם :-)  TomerTALK 21:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sefer Hamitzvot (talk moved from main page)

message: Hi all. I hope you know about Portal:Judaism. It is being discussed whether the portal should be deleted because it doesn't satisfy certain requirements, because not much work has been done on it. Please see the discussion here. I request you to please contribute and make the portal survive. Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 04:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: great! deeptrivia (talk) 04:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome! IZAK 04:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Done. It's too easy to click Edit there to vandalize the intro, so I suggest disabling that link. The intro doesn't change that often anyway. Thoughts? ←Humus sapiens←ну? 08:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Portal:Judaism update

message: There is a discussion at Category talk:Jewish Americans over whether that category should be categorized under :Category:European Americans. -Willmcw 23:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are Jewish Americans also European Americans? 

message: Please comment: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion#interreligious --Striver 05:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion]]

message: Not that I'm calling anyone names. Could someone please have a look at Mamzer? My questions are on Talk:Mamzer. - Jmabel | Talk 18:48, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This has now been rewritten, apparently as a translation from Hebrew. I've done my best to clean up the English, but the resulting article is still a mess. A review by someone more familiar with halakha than I am would be in order. - Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What else needs to be done? Jon513 19:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mamzer 

message: Should there be an entry (at the very least a disambig link) for Shema Yisrael in Confession of Faith? I think our Muslim friends would also want to add an entry there. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 01:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If anything in Judaism qualifies it would be Ani Maamin based on the Rambam. However I think the whole premise of a confession of faith is that it is more formal and dogmatic than anything Judaism has. Some formal statements of Reform and Conservative Judaism would also be candidates but weak candidates like Ani Maamin or the Shma because none of them have the formal dogmatic element. Frikle 10:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confession of Faith 

message: Neutrality has done pretty much a complete rewrite on Tikkun olam, including removing all previous external links. I don't have the expertise to say much about this, but probably a major rewrite like this deserves review from someone who does. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I haven't thorougly looked at it, but I've made some edits. Yes, Neutrality's edits made it clearer than some of the esoteric descriptions that existed on the previous incarnation. I'll look at the external links some time later. jnothman talk 05:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was particularly surprised to see Gershom Scholem removed from the list of references. In my little reading on esoteric Judaism, I've usually found Scholem useful and clear. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I hadn't done anything with the external links etc. Now I've just included most of them again, but the references / further reading needed to be qualified as only texts related to the term's use in Kabbalah. jnothman talk 02:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  Thanks, looks good. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tikkun olam 

message: Please see Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Hebrewterm. JFW | T@lk 19:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Template 

message: I have created a new article with a title that may need changing.  Right now it is called Thou shalt not give Hitler posthumous victories.  As this nears completion there's a question about which of several potential redirects ought to be the primary title.  Would 614th commandment, 614th mitzvah or some other title be more appropriate?  Also, please suggest appropriate categories.  If this merits a location on the Judaism portal template then where on the template should it belong?  
Content and NPOV suggestions are also welcome.  I've done my best to cover this sensitive subject in a balanced and tasteful way.  Regards, Durova 18:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Striking two possibilities per feedback received elsewhere.  Would Do not give Hitler posthumous victories or Hitler and posthumous victories be more appropriate? Durova 04:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seeking feedback and suggestions 

message: Japanese WikiProject Judaism ":ja:Wikipedia:ウィキプロジェクト ユダヤ教" was opened. Please join in! --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 20:06, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese WikiProject 

message: Hey, I thought I'd let you guys know about , which is no different then  but can be used in Babel templates; and , which tries to emulate the blue and red color scheme of those kosher labels. --HereToHelp (talk) 19:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A separate  would be useful to explain the absence of wiki-presence. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New userboxes

message: see also:
* Wikipedia:Requested pictures#Judaism
* Talk:List of Jews
* Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts#Judaism
* Wikipedia:German-English translation requests/biographies
:: Sheynhertz 23:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other pages 

message: See :Category:Anti-Semitic people ←Humus sapiens←ну? 10:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  CFD 

message: I'd like to try to clean up and improve the pages about the story of the fiery furnace. The story of the fiery furnance has a lot of importance in the Jewish and Christian traditions, and had has a lot of cultural impact; Wikipedia ought to have better information about it. I've started by poking at the pages and suggesting some merges; I'd appreciate any help from project members on whatever relating to this subject, but specifically to help avoid sectarian bias in the articles and include a lot of solid information about many perspectives. Please leave any comments on the talk page of fiery furnace. Thanks! -- Tetraminoe 14:00, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fiery Furnace 

message: I've been trying to copyedit Israel Shamir, but I honestly don't know thing one about this guy, and the chief contributor to the article pretty clearly doesn't know much about wiki markup.  Personally, I'd like to see the guy deleted, and possibly the article as well, but it appears that he's marginally noteworthy so the latter at least is unfeasible.  (I'll contact my people in the vast world-wide Zionist/Jewish/American/Right-wing conspiracy to see about the former, of course...)  Meanwhile, if anyone knows anything about this guy, or is willing to add the article to their watchlist, any assistance with this article would be greatly appreciated...  Tomertalk 02:32, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Call for help on [[Israel Shamir]] 

message: The following was posted on the Help Desk#Copyright status of Jewish Encyclopedia images. I thought it might be of interest to the project. jnothman talk 12:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to be no, according to Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.. - Akamad 05:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would assume than applies to scans as well.  In which case it would seem JE.com can't legitimately put a copyright emblem on their scans of pictures from the Jewish Encyclopedia.  I bring all this up because one of the images on the category page is mislabeled--it's actually a duplicate of another--and I wanted to replace it with the correct one.  I just wanted to make sure all my jots and tittles are in place.--◀Pucktalk▶ 06:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The first paragraph of that web site explains that it is so, and that the encyclopedia is public domain. jnothman talk 23:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah. Guess I've got to be smarter about checking that kind of stuff.  Thank you!  ArglebargleIV 01:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright status of Jewish Encyclopedia images 

message: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minyan Shivyoni Hilchati - please weigh in. JFW | T@lk 01:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion 

message: I have been adding some stuff about the history of Judaism in Germany and Austria and the people, and plan to continue (see for example Stadttempel and Marcel Prawy. Although my contributions will be quite limited from their scope, can I join this Project as well? Gryffindor 17:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't need to be Jewish to join. Nobody controls membership of WikiProjects. Feel free to join! JFW | T@lk 23:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  question regarding membership 

message: I've had some nasty run-ins with , a Biblical criticism enthusiast. I have found an immensely useful resource in dealing with these views: a number of articles in "Challenge" by Carmell and Domb. A wife confused for a sister still needs NPOV editing, but I have added a dissenting view that makes a mockery of the DH waffle.
I've also been in touch with Prof David Gotlieb, who recommended this and this. JFW | T@lk 11:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biblical criticism 

message: Has anyone looked into the issue raised at Talk:Tu_Bishvat#Copyvio.3F? (Whoever does, please leave an appropriate remark on that talk page). - Jmabel | Talk 03:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tu Bishvat 

message: The article Amitz is a mess.  Anyone in the Atlanta area know anything about this club?  Any ideas for how to reduce the number of red links (notability would be a good guideline, but I know nothing about these folks, nor where to draw the line on notability for this subject.  The article has a bit of a POV problem, and could use some categorization...  Any help with it would be greatly appreciated.  Tomertalk 19:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ugh