Talk:2003 Canberra bushfires

message: This is a very important part of Australian history, considering its impact on the nation's capital, that's why I've upgraded its importance. Atlantis Hawk 04:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Importance

message: Should the ongoing inquiry go in this article or have its own?--nixie 13:19, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: How much do you think needs to be written about it (me being from out of state, and therefore not being too aware of the details of it)? If there's a lot to say, it'd be nice to give it its own article, and then a summary section in this as well, linked according to Wikipedia:Summary style. Ambi 13:37, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Its been going all year- and there is some controversy about the coroner- who has basically been banned from giving evidence. I'll have a go at it sometime next week.--nixie 22:18, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, that's right - I remember reading about that. Thanks a lot! :) Ambi 00:12, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inquiry separate article? 

message: Bushfire Recovery Taskforce links
*Action Plan
*Final Report
--nixie 05:21, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: The lead section reads "...the fires entered the suburbs of Canberra on 18 January. Over the next ten days, four people died and more than 500 homes and thousands of hectares of forest were destroyed, requiring a massive relief and reconstruction effort."
I am not sure where the "Over the next ten days.." reference comes from as I was under the understanding that no houses where burnt in Canberra after the evening/night of the 18th. Martyman 00:11, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Eeep. My mistake. I was under the impression the fires blazed for longer than that - feel free to correct it, or I'll check my facts more carefully when I get home. Ambi 00:18, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well from memory on the 19th things where much better as the extreme winds died down at around 6 or 7pm on the 18th and didn't come back so things where pretty much under control. There was a threat of the fire re-approaching from a new direction for a few days (which failed to eventuate). Some houses may have been still burning into the next day, and the fire may have moved on into other parts of NSW. Martyman 00:50, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead Section 

message: I found these possibly useful references on the ACT local ABC radio website.  Martyman 06:29, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That's probably the best resource we have for the chronology - it's what I used to write the Black Saturday section. The SMH and The Age both have good archives from the bushfires as well, but I don't have time to go hunt their links down - they're easily findable through Google. Ambi 06:53, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: And the ABS has this  (at the bottom of the page. --Martyman-(talk) 05:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

text: You could give http://archive.org a try which may have it archived. Bidgee (talk) 11:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Useful References 

message: I removed the see also section linking to Cedar fire which doesn't exist and as far as I can tell has no relavence to Canberra at all. Martyman 12:03, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted Edit 

message: I was wondering whether the sub-heading "Black Saturday" is appropriate.  It is not a term that I have heard previously as a Canberran.  Other bushfires have been referred to as "Ash Wednesday" or "Black Thursday" or whatever but not this one, or certainly not that it has come to my attention as a local.  I appreciate that the fires were on a Saturday and the place certainly darkened dramatically! The events of the Saturday were key but the tension of the following week was significant, people I worked with could not concentrate and had to go home to check - particularly around Gunghalin. Advice of threats was, it seems in hindsight, not related to real risk. AYArktos 07:10, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black Saturday?

message: *I have reverted much of the edit on The impacts of the disaster, for the reasons interspersed below:
Many social and economic impacts arose in the wake of the Canberra Bushfires of Jan 2003 (Black Sunday). These were;
:The fire was mainly on Saturday
Homelessness: Due to the destruction of 530 properties; people were left homeless as their houses were completely destroyed or unsafe to live in.
:Noone was sleeping on the streets and destruction of homes mentioned in opening paragraph
Anarchy and confusion Once the fire struck, people began to panic; and confusion quickly followed. Some people took advantage of the situation and began to loot peoples homes in the middle of the evacuation.
:Anarchy is overstating the case but there was certainly confusion and this is mentioned in the McLeod report findings.  Looting was not reported as being an impact at the time- possibly occcurred but not at significant levels.
Death Some people died in the firestorm as a result of being trapped in burning building and of smoke inhalation.
:deaths mentioned in article opening paragraph
Depression and Despair Some people had lost their families; lives and homes in the tragic bushfire and fell into depression as they could not live their lives normally anymore.
:agreed was an impact but this is a general impact of any disaster
The environmental impacts of the Canberra Bushfires were:
Pollution Because of the fires which had burned for many days; a lot of carbon dioxide was released in to the air, causing smogs and reducing air quality in that region.
:not an unexpected impact for fires this size
Regeneration The fire allowed seeds from gums and other similar vegetation to escape from their seed pods and allowing them to form new trees.
:dealt with in article on bushfire
Damage to the built environment Fires caused extensive damages to property all around Canberra; and destroyed much of the built environment. When re-construction began; the natural environment was disturbed further due to removal and pollution of vegetation.
:as a proprotion of the built environment, the qualifier "much" is overstating the effect.  The natural environment to the west has been significantly destroyed by the fire and the reclearing.
Destruction of flora and fauna According to scientists, the natural ecosystem was disturbed greatly due to the burning of grasslands and food sources of wild animals. This; no doubt will take years to recover.
:refer bushfire article
--AYArktos 23:49, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine by me. I really should come back and finish this soon. Ambi 01:16, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I know this is a bit late, bit I might just mention that the opening paragraph should be a summary of the entire article. Therefor it is expected that things will be mentioned there and repeated further down the article. --Martyman-(talk) 05:48, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted edit 

message: I think the details on the inquiry should be merged back into this article, what do other people think?--nixie 13:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For now, I think that would be a good idea. There may be enough for a seperate article eventually, though. Ambi 00:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Coroners inquiry

message: Should this be renamed 2003 Canberra Bushfires to conform with Wikipedia's naming conventions? Brisvegas 09:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: What naming conventions? Ambi 10:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally, when describing an event, the convention is (Year) (Location) (Event). Some examples include: 1974 Brisbane Flood, 2005 Amman bombings, 2005 civil unrest in France, 2002 Bali bombing, etc. Brisvegas 11:28, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The only thing I can find at Wikipedia:Naming conventions that seems even remotely relavent is Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Years in titles, but it isn't really the same thing. I am also unable to find the policy stating new discussions on talk pages should go at the bottom. ;-) --Martyman-(talk) 11:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see the point. No objections here to moving it to 2003 Canberra bushfires (with lowercase b). Ambi 11:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rename?

message: I have just reverted some additions made by 210.84.3.119. They may be correct, but I would like to see these additions referenced before being re-added as especially the second one doesn't read very NPOV. --Martyman-(talk) 07:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted Edits 2 

message: When two fire fronts met, the result was surprising. The Canberra fires rewrote the way bushfires behaved.
 Firefighters tried to contain the fire by water bombing.
and cumming on itlololllllolol  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.27.53.74 (talk) 05:20, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fire Fighting Tactics 

message: By what criteria are these the "worst fires" as per our opening section?  I don't think the amount of compensation offered by insurance companies could serve as the basis of valid comparison between fires at different times. There have been some other major fires, particularly the fire in 1952 when there were heavy losses of stock and of some houses; I am not sure if anyone died.  I believe that fire nearly reached Civic.  It was after that fire that local volunteer bushfire brigades were started. --A  Y  Arktos 10:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: reference for 1952 fires is at http://www.esb.act.gov.au/firebreak/1952fire.html Major fires were in 1926, 1939 and 1952.--A  Y  Arktos 10:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You're absolutely right, and my original version was incorrect. Thanks for spotting the error. :) Ambi 12:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worst bushfires? 

message: I have added a map showing the total area effected and colour coding suburbs by number of houses damaged. It could still do a with a bit of tweaking, but I am fairly happy with it. As Nixie has suggested, I am also going to look into producing a less detailed series of maps to show the progression of the fire over the days leading up to the firestorm. This series of maps is available in the report thingy. --Martyman-(talk) 10:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The frames are 1 day each, I was going to add the date up in the top corner to show the passing of time. Unfortunately the data I have used (the Mcloed Report) only seems to have fire progress up until the 17th. Then the last frame is the one from the other map which is actually based on a satelite image from the 26th (off the top of my head). I think most of the extra burnt area occured on the 18th, but don't have actual proof of that. --Martyman-(talk) 20:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Note self: . --Martyman-(talk) 21:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: New version uploaded, I included some more data from other sources, added a date in teh corner and changed the burnt area to red. --Martyman-(talk) 11:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks great, add a scale and a north point and I think it could be good enough for featured pics.--nixie 22:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I was thinking about adding a scale but didn't get around to it. It shouldn't be too hard to add it now though. --Martyman-(talk) 22:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

text: I think the speed is about right- but I think a pause on the last frame might be good.--nixie 08:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: New version uploaded. --Martyman-(talk) 10:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Its excellent!!!!--A  Y  Arktos 11:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

text: It's an okay map, but inaccurate in that it would suggest to the un-learned person that fire was in every place covered with red, where as much was alread burnt and the edge of the shading represents the active fires. A map used on Canberra Stateline on ABC was more accurate, showing the movement of the fires but with an orange outline instead of a solid colour expanding. Just my thoughs, I understand what the map means, but some may think the fire was actively actually as big as the coloured area. Canberra photographer (talk) 12:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Maps 

message: There are a couple of excellent before-and-after satellite images here:
They come from this page at Geosciences Australia (hover your cursor over the photo to see the change:
152.91.9.115 02:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Maps 

message: I got over to the memorial this afternoon and took some photos. They are available on my website. Pretty hard to photograph the memorial as a whole. Let me know if anyone wants any uploaded for use on wikipedia. --Martyman-(talk) 07:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you should put one of them in this article. I personally prefer this one  -- Astrokey44|talk 13:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I like that one too.--nixie 04:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have uploaded :Image:Canberra bushfire memorial-MJC.JPG I won't add it to the article straight away, but maybe when it is expanded a bit it will fit in somewhere. --Martyman-(talk) 06:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I expanded the section on the memorial, and used one of my own images, which shows the memorial walls as well as the main sculpture. If someone wants to rewrite the section, that would be good. What's there is pretty much word-for-word what is written on the plaques at the memorial. I have a few other pictures I'd like to upload and make into a gallery: details of the memorial walls and other views of different parts of the memorial. I suppose I should have checked here earlier. Sorry if I've stepped on any toes. I have taken the advice to be bold to heart. --Myk 10:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bushfire Memorial Photos 

message: How many houses were destroyed by the fires exactly? There are four different figures in four different articles. This article says 816 (including damaged ones), according to Canberra there were 500 destroyed houses and according to History of Canberra 491. In History of the Australian Capital Territory we have 67 rural houses and 414 in the suburbs (totalling 481). The result is confusion... --Voyager 15:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I am confused 

message: As a (now) former resident of Duffy who experienced the January 18 fires, I am not so sure I agree with the comment that the fires were not a social disaster. There was, and still is, a consensus amongst those who were present, that the scale of the disaster was almost directly attributable to human and bureaucratic failure at key points in the weeks and then finally the hours leading up to what was, take it from me, one of the most terrifying experiences for ordinary suburban dwellers - an experience so far out of the ordinary, that even today, five years later, it makes me shaky to even think - let alone - write about.
Evidence uncovered in the months of analysis afterwards indicates that the fires which eventually hit Canberra, could have been readily extinguished if, instead of observing and commenting, people had actually applied water. That was one lesson for the urban, fires will burn if you don't put them out!
Second lesson and this was a tough one for Canberra - if you lose your local news services - you can burn to death in your own home while watching the tennis or the cricket - it is just that fast, that deadly and if you are indoors glued to a screen - a big surprise!
Third lesson - never apply financial and accounting models to the management of Nature - reducing the strength of volunteer firefighters by a process of metered attrition to save a few bucks on a small town budget - big mistake which Nature will treat with the contempt it deserves. On the numbers alone - prevention would have definitely been better than the cost of the 'cure'.
Fourth lesson - no matter what the reputation Canberra may have as a souless city of bureaucracy on January 18 the residents of Duffy, with only the heroic assistance of one fire crew acting on their own cognisance stepped up in a big way - the stories of indivudual heroism have only been partially captured in publications after the fact - but, personally, I witnessed ordinary people standing firm and saving their neighbours at the risk of their own lives - that is a lesson I will never forget. The fact that that lesson was vitiated by the actions of the bureacrats responsible for managing the official emergency response to fires - is one of the reasons Canberra gets the reputation it has...at home they may be heroes in the office....they are fools...
Fifth and final lesson - never take Nature for granted. Never lose your ability to react - as I did - standing dumb and stupid watching the advance of a 60 foot high wall of flame, waiting to be rescued as my 18 year old son shouted at me and my husband over the roar of the flames that if we didn't get a move on - we would all die! how's that for out of the mouths?
While I agree with AYArktos' opinion about the labelling, I cannot subscribe to the opinion that it was really not a big deal. For any rational person, it was a huge deal. On the topic of animals - it was actually the RSPCA which was successfully evacuated - but one local vet hospital burned to the ground, taking all the animals with it and nearly taking the staff - people still leave flowers at that site.
The loss of Stromlo is kind of glossed over. For those of us who knew it and loved it, the Mt Stromlo Observatory was a symbol of the beauty and majesty of Nature and Science. Gleaming domes, silent, fragrant pines, photographic plates from the 1930s showing galaxies beyond number - all burned away - they will never be replaced - another small fragment of unique history lost forever - and only mourned by a few....
Moving on is important - but so is remembering.
Fidelia (talk) 03:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Personal disaster

message: This article could almost be nominated for WP:GA, with a few adjustments here and there. Just a basic copyedit and standardising the references should be at least a good start for you. lincalinca 06:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good article 

message: Whilst reading the article I noticed these sentences: "Swimming pools were evacuated of which kids were in. One of which was Michael Ireland, who managed to survive these fearsome fires."
This is bad is grammatically and seems to refer to an individuals personal experience of the fires which, whilst perhaps interesting in and of itself, does not actually contribute to the article.
Not being a regular Wikipedia editor, I though I'd best check with the professionals rather than just going in and deleting these lines.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.91.20 (talk) 14:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Swimming Pools Evacuated? 

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thread_title:  Dead link 

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thread_title:  Dead link 2 

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thread_title:  Dead link 3 

message: The lead sentence says "over 490" injured, but the infobox says 435. They can't both be right. (Neither has a reference that I can check.) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:45, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Number of injuries 

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