Talk:Acharya S/Archive 6

message: <<That you assume to hold the power of life or death over this article bespeaks the arrogance of belief, prejudice, and bias.>>
If you mean the single-person you, I do not. If you mean the plural you, most definitely. And why not? We are the Wikipedians who collectively make up the Wikipedia. On the other hand, you (single-person you) do seem to assume you hold the power of life or death over this article. You are free (if not welcome), to list this article for speedy deletion. However, this article clearly does not meet the criteria, and I seriously doubt any administrators will take you up on it.
<<Just because two thirds of this nation are Christian>>
Fortunately, you don't have to gain the consensus of the nation - or since Wikipedia is international, the English-speaking world. You don't even have to gain the consensus of the entire Wikipedia - which would tend to tilt the odds in your favor, since non-Christians are disproportionately represented here. You just have to reach a consensus with the other contributors to this article - many of whom are not Christian. You aren't, I'm not. Not sure about the others. They might be Christians, they might not be. (Might as well lay down your cards people - the pro-Acharyans are going to accuse us of being biased anyway.) It would not be wise for you to simply assume that everyone who disagrees with Acharya is a Christian. While we are on the subject, what are your religious beliefs?
<<adament an opponent to prejudice, belief, bias, hate, racism and subjectivity.>>
Wow, I get to flex my philosophical muscles!
*Prejudice - actually, prejudice is pro-survival. We are wired by millions of years of evolution to come to snap judgements. It is better to come to a nearly-correct decision at once (that the orange-and-black stripped object over there is a dangerous predator) than to make a correct one after hours of reflection (that's a good way to wind up as kitty chow). Of course, we owe to ourselves to double-check our prejudices. I'm willing to revaluate my beliefs about Acharya, anytime you are willing to try to convince me.
*Belief - I believe that I'm sitting in front of a computer right now. I believe that I am human. I even believe that I exist. Are you saying I shouldn't believe these things?
*Bias - bias helps us to come to snap judgements. We are hard-wired to be biased - experiments have shown that we have emotional reactions to even nonsense strings of syllables. But, just as we have an obligation to doublecheck our  prejudices, we have an obligation to overcome our bias - if we have a reason to do so.
*Hate - So, would you say that it is wrong to hate prejudice, belief, bias, hate, racism and subjectivity? Though I would say that it is wise to love the sinner, hate the sin. 
*Racism - your opposition to it is commendable. But I fail to see how it applies in this situation. What race would you say that your fellow contributors belong to? Are you saying that we are discriminating against Achayra because she is a WASP?
*Subjectivity - As my ethics prof says, "ought implies can". If you say that we ought not to be subjective, you are implying that we can be otherwise. I disagree. We will always be influenced by our prejudices, our biases, our pre-existing beliefs. But we might be able to affect how much we are influenced by those things.
Re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alteripse#Acharya_S_2
If I were engaged in a conspiracy, I would take care for the conspiracy to be kept secret. I have the ability to privately email other Wikipedians - a form of communication that others would be hard pressed to intercept. You will also note that the first person I suggested we "recruit" into this "conspiracy" was James, a pro-Acharyan. A most odd choice for an anti-Acharyan conspiracy! 
My intention was to break up the two combatants. It was clear to me that Zarove and James were engaging in an escalating cycle of mutual recrimination. I hoped that by approaching them seperately, we might be able to broker a compromise. Unfortunately, schoolwork caught up with me, and I was unable to put this plan into action.
<<As an example: the introduction of the Noahide Laws without referencing where you obtained the information is an example of slanting the article to make it seem that she is antisemitic.>>
Actually, I'm fairly sure that even the original version of that passage included a link to Acharya's article. And I repeat, you are welcome to suggest alternative langauge.
<<It is worthy of note that she has criticisms of Buddhism and Islam, as well.>>
That doesn't mean that she can't be antisemitic in addition to hating (or at least criticising) other religions as well. Accusations of antisemitism are rather touchy, but she is accusing Jews of taking part in the shadowy "New World Order". Shades of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" there.
Back to the task at hand - my rewrite of the Criticism section. My ethics as a scholar-in-training don't include an obligation for objectivity. But they do include an obligation for honesty and self-criticism. That means taking the objections of my ideological opponents (who might well be my personal friends - personal animosity is not required in a scholarly debate!) into consideration. My ethics also include the need for peer-review. So, I say again, you will be given every opportunity to raise objections, and we will do our best to address those objections. crazyeddie 19:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to el Lobo

message: I'm starting to read over the big honking stack of printouts. I've just gotten to Acharya's response to Robert Price. Apparently Acharya believes that the Masons were the instigators of the Christ Conspiracy. Robert Price scoffed at that. Her reply, in part, was that "For modern examples of masonic connection to religion, all one need to do is investigate Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses." Firstly, could somebody get me some Advil? Secondly, could el Lobo, or AJA, or somebody who has actually read her stuff outline her proposed narative of the Christ Conspiracy? I think providing this outline in the article just gained a whole new level of importance for me. crazyeddie 22:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just got this when I loaded the article:
Line 1: 	Line 1:
	Thanks for experimenting with the page :Fag on Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.  Thanks. 		Thanks for experimenting with the page :Fag on Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.  Thanks. 
	--Krich 07:08, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Going through the Criticisms

message: Wikipedia Response by Acharya S
I agree. If we are to include her criticisms of Noahide Laws and Judaism, lets also include sections for her criticisms of Buddhism, Mormonism and Islam. 
^^James^^ 11:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine, no problem. Just let's have them reported in a neutral and fairly crisp way. Charles Matthews 11:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Updated response

message: It's the same old song and dance. Whining cannot change the fact that you were the chief archetect of what was little more than a platform for your beliefs. 
This is simply the same Liableous soprt of claim hat you alledge we make. You have no real evidence that I wrote a peice to smear Dorothy. In fact, if you rad through any version,even those I personally edited, you iwll find not one hint of my personal beleifs. 
On the other hand, if you look at what you or James have done, you will see plenty of partisain rambligns in an attemto to remove her claims that woudl reveal her for what she is, acceptabc of her self promotional claims abotu herself withotu queasiton, refusal to allowtour own argumetns for such inclusion in the article proper, and removal orf all critism.
So, rather than Hypocriticlaly attack me and sya I only wanted to push my beleifs, look at reality. You do nohtign but try to push your beelifs, and rmeove anyhtign that woudl cause one to pause and consider that perhaps this is not thebest source.
I have not crtiissed Doorthy's work in this artilce, neither have I done anyhtign to advance my beleifs. I merley report on her beleifs. You, on thd other hand, promote her beelifs. I also report on the known facts of her life. ( Which I didnt getfrom her ex-Boyfriend, by the way, I called courthouses and her school and such. I did a peice pn her. So let her call the FBI, what I did was a absic background search.)
In your denial of even the possibility that religion is an adaptation of previous myth (rendering it impotent and useless)...
Located where in this artivle? Or even the talk pages? Need I remind you its James who wante dot "Expose" me and my alledged agenda. He even said it was strange I edited on DInosaurs and posted a quot form me ( ut of context) whihc impleid I was a creationist...
So rather than lie again, try oproong htis allegation for once.
WHere do I make any such denial here?
you created an article that reeked of propaganda and slander based in inuendo, accusation, conjecture and denial.
As proven by...what? Can you even remoely quote me doing anyhtign at all in the article that does any of this?
Or is htis shallow posturing, the same sort we have become use to form an Acharya Disiple.
You ignored every challenge made to you and denied objections to your methods even in the face of irrefutable evidence.
Actually this isnt true at all. What I do is postinformaiton, such as that her son wasabducted in 2005. She posted th elink on her own website. it was removed here. I also post thather works arent tkenseriosuly in Academia. Thats pretty danged evident. I also posted that her beelif was that Jesus was a SOlar Myth andeven went so far as to rpelicate her entire list of claims.
This isnt a debate, this is an encyclopedia.
Now you come, hat in hand "decrying your outcast state".
No I didnt. I declared that you are bullying and harrassing others here, incluidng myself. THis much is obvious to al concenred.
Well, it's your baby, so look what you have done. 
I write an aritlc eon a two bit conspiracy theorist and thendefended the articld form her legiosn of devotees who wan tot make the aritlce read as a commerical for her an who will say its a smear to read otherwise...
I've maintained that as long as the likes of you are free to edit at will, this piece should be removed.
Can yo show me any example where I actually smeared her? Anyhtign at all?
In the arilce itsself of coruse.
It cannot receive equal treatment, a neutral view, or an honest evaluation that will long stand unchanged because you and the believers of the world cannot help themselves. 
By Neutal, of coruse, youmean " SHe has conclusiely, withotu a doubt, proced that Jeuss Christ didnt exist and is base don the millinia old Solar Myth and Astortheology. SHe is a brillaint world renown schoalr, repseted the wolrd over, and fights an endless crusade agaisnt the eivl that is the CHrurch, and allrleigoon."
Sorry, not buyign it. You dotn want neutral, you want slanted in faovur of her. I want neutral as I do not ovelry call ehr a crank in the aritlce itsself.
I think I hav better standing here.
63.17.213.120 19:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: reply.

message: <<Regarding Masonry... do quote where Acharya states a "belief" "that a conspiracy involving free-masons, pagans, and Jews fabricated not only the gospel accounts of Jesus and the story of Jesus' life, but also the story of the apostles, and Paul, and apparently John the Baptist." You state that she "believes" this... any proof that this is a fact?>>
Is there any evidence that she has this belief? (There is an epistemological difference between "proof" and "evidence", just to nitpick. Even if I had a signed note from Acharya saying that she holds these beliefs, that would not be proof, because it could be forged. It would, however, be fairly strong evidence.) At least in the criticisms, there is evidence to support this statement. 
*Freemasons: Mike Licona states, "The thesis of The Christ Conspiracy is that pagans and Jews who were Masons from the first and second centuries got together and invented the account of Jesus and his disciples in order to create a religion which it was hoped would serve as a one-world religion for the Roman empire." Acharya, in her rebuttal, doesn't see fit to challenge this characterization. Further, he expends an entire section on Freemasonry. In her rebuttal, Acharya does not rebut the allegation that she believes that Masons were involved, but rather defends her allegations that they are. For example, she states that "In addition, in establishing the Masonic connection to Christianity, I reproduce a long excerpt from Thomas Paine's 'Origin of Freemasonry.'" 
:He also quotes Acharya as saying "The historian Josephus certainly knew of the Masons and allegedly was one . . ."(108) This demonstrates that Acharya believes that the Masons have been around since at least the first and second centuries AD.
:Even assuming that Licona is flat out lying, Acharya's words in her response show that she believes that there is a Masonic connection to Christianity. The above quote demostrates that she believes them to have been around for much longer than is commonly suspected. At most, he is lying about Acharya claiming that they were involved in the original conspiracy. Acharya saw no reason to contradict him in this statement though. In short, I see no reason to doubt Licona's characterization of Acharya's thesis as stating that freemasons were involved in the creation of the "Christ Conspiracy". My main confusion is this: does Licona mean (pagans and Jews) who were free-masons, or pagans and (Jews who were free-masons)?
*Paul: Again, according to Mike Licona: "She believes that all of Paul’s letters are forgeries. In support of this position she quotes Joseph Wheless: "The entire ‘Pauline group’ is the same forged class . . . says E. B. [Encyclopedia Biblica] . . . ‘With respect to the canonical Pauline Epistles, . . . there are none of them by Paul; neither fourteen, nor thirteen, nor nine or eight, nor yet even the four so long "universally" regarded as unassailable. They are all, without distinction, pseudographia (false-writings, forgeries). . .’"(48) She also quotes Hayyim ben Yehoshua who writes, "we are left with the conclusion that all the Pauline epistles are pseudepigraphic" and he also refers to Paul as a "semi-mythical" figure.(49) Again, this is a position that no major scholar takes."
:I suppose it could be that she believes that Paul was only semi-mythical - that there was a historical Paul, but his letters are forgeries and virtually everything we know about him is false. 
*The Apostles: I have no evidence to submit, except to note that 1) Mike Licona's summary of Acharya's thesis characterizes it as saying that, 2) Acharya didn't see fit to rebut the point, 3) if Acharya is going to say that Paul, who appears later in the mainstream historical narrative and had no personal interaction with Jesus, is (semi)-mythical, then I see nothing preventing her from claiming the same for the earlier apostles who are recording as having interactions with the mythical Jesus.
*John the Baptist: Again, Mike Licona: "Murdock's claim is grossly naïve as well as false. Josephus’ passage on John the Baptist(73) is regarded as authentic and is hardly disputed by scholars. Edwin Yamauchi, Professor of History at Miami University writes, "No scholar has questioned the authenticity of this passage, though there are some differences between Josephus's account and that in the Gospels . . ."(74) New Testament scholar, Robert Van Voorst of Western Theological Seminary likewise comments that the passage by Josephus on John the Baptist is "held to be undoubtedly genuine by most interpreters"(75) and that "scholars also hold [it] to be independent of the New Testament."(76) John Meier, professor of New Testament at The Catholic University of America writes that Josephus' mentioning of John the Baptist is "accepted as authentic by almost all scholars" and that it "is simply inconceivable as the work of a Christian of any period."(77) Jewish scholar, Louis Feldman of Yeshiva University and perhaps the most prominent expert on Josephus comments on this passage: "There can be little doubt as to the genuineness of Josephus’ passage about John the Baptist."(78) Therefore, Murdock's comment that this passage has "been dismissed by scholars and Christian apologists alike as forgeries" is demonstrably false.
:"The reasons for accepting the authenticity of this passage are: (a) The style and vocabulary belong to Josephus. (b) If a subsequent Christian editor added the passage, we would expect a comment about John's preaching regarding the Messiah who was Jesus. (c) An interpolator would most likely not have included the discrepancy between the Gospels and Josephus in terms of the reason John was executed."
:I seem to recall that Josephus is the only source we have on John the Baptist outside the Gospels that was written close to the time that he lived. (My memory might be shaky on this.) Since no scholar believes that this passage of Josephus was fake, the only reason I can see for her to allege that it is is if she wants to imply that John the Baptist is mythical. Admittedly, my evidence on this point is rather shaky, hence the "apparently".
*Does Acharya believe this? Actually, I have considered the possibility that all of this is a truly massive practical joke on the part of Acharya. However, that would be a violation of Hanlon's Razor.
I'll admit that I have not read Acharya's books. However, based on the evidence present in her critic's writings and in her own responses to those critics, I must concluded that her thesis is much as I have described it. If anybody who has actually read the book wishes to dispute my characterization of her thesis, my ears are wide open.
<<Mike Licona must not be aware of the timeline of christianity... Hinduism dates to around 5000 BC http://hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_antiquity.htm and Buddhism to circa 500 BC http://www.aboutbuddhism.org/history-of-buddhism.htm>>
The emphasis here is on certain obscure branches of Hinduism and Buddhism, not Hinduism and Buddhism themselves. The phrase "certain obscure branches" is my own, not Licona's, and it may be that, at least for the Hinduism branches, they are not all that obscure. 
*Krishna: In Licona's reply to Acharya's response to his first article: "Regarding your “Christian sources,” Lundy and Georgius, even if you are correct, Lundy and Georgius write of their contemporary experiences with present-day Hindus. This does nothing to support your position that Hindus in antiquity worshipped a crucified Krishna. Hindu traditions on the life of Krishna come from the Bhagavata Purana and the Harivamsa, which as I pointed out in my paper, both post-date the rise of Christianity and, therefore, do nothing to support your thesis.(57)"
*Buddha: From Acharya's rebuttal to Licona: "One aspect that demonstrates my knowledge of the orthodox story, which, naturally since it is readily available, long preceded my becoming aware of the contested information, is the fact that I cited these same contested characteristics. The same may be said concerning Buddha, which is obvious from my numerous footnotes, in particular as concerns the contested motifs, and from my statement on p. 109 of The Christ Conspiracy:
::"'Because of this non-historicity and of the following characteristics of the Buddha myth, which are not widely known but which have their hoary roots in the mists of time, we an safely assume that Buddha is yet another personification of the ancient, universal mythos being revealed herein.' (Emph. added.)
:"For the intelligent, it should have been obvious that I know very well the orthodox tales of these various godmen. Hence, Licona is either being deceptive in his presentation of the facts or he is not as clever as he likes to think."
From Licona: "In your rebuttal and citing your own words from The Christ Conspiracy, you write of, “this non-historicity and of the following characteristics of the Buddha myth, which are not widely known [ital. yours] but which have their hoary roots in the mists of time . . .”(58) We still have yet to learn from where you get your “not widely known” information. You simply quote others who many times turn out being terribly wrong and unscholarly in both their exegesis and reasoning."
This is what I gather Licona is getting at: Acharya's characterizations of Buddhism and Hinduism are, on the whole, false. In the case of Krishna-worship, they might be true of certain sects, but the origins of these sects post-date the writing of the gospels, and therefore either represent a convergent, but independent, development in two religious traditions, or are else borrowings from Christianity. Assuming that Acharya's "not widely known" information pans out, the same might be true of Buddhism - not true for the vast majority of sects, but possibly true for certain sects. It has yet to be determined whether these hypothetical sects pre- or post-date the gospels.
At any rate, the dispute over the possible Eastern origins of certain themes of Christianity is merely a sideshow. What should be focused on is her allegation that large chunks of the New Testament are the fabrications of a conspiracy. While her allegation that Eastern religious traditions were used as source material by the conspiracy is interesting (because it would mean that this ancient conspiracy had far greater knowledge of India than what we think the Romans had), but I don't suppose it matters too much where the conspiracy got their material from. Her allegations of borrowing from Eastern traditions has about the same level of interest as her allegations that the sections of Tacitus dealing with the Christians are interpolations of later Christian editors. crazyeddie 20:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sorry to interrupt the fireworks, but...

message: Quite a mouthful there, but is it yours?  You say you haven't read Acharya's work, but you sure like to blowhard a plenty through other mouthpeices.  You really expect someone to explain every  point to you?!  Your carping adds about as much validity toward the subject as as a fart in a windstorm.  I could just as well pontificate endlessly over a critique of Micheal Licona through his hostile detractors, without ever having read or studied his works.  I guess that would make me an expert on him and his views!  
The mature thing to do is to become familiarised with all sides and develope an overall knowledge of the subject, that way you can do your OWN thinking on a just basis. It is not up to you or I to make the decision about who is right or wrong, only to allow others to see and decide for themselves.  Apparently, you don't want to do that for yourself, perhaps because of some preconceived hostility toward one view vs. another?  The critics know where to debate or refute one another...in open forum, not in the editing room of a "pedia".  --Skull 01:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: sorry to interrupt you Licona..er Crazy!

message: I did read her first book. And, need I remidn you all, this articl eis not principly about her work. As much as her disiples will it ot be an advance of the thesis that Jesus Christ was a Plagersied SOlar Myth and to present htis veiw without oposiiton, the fact remains that the article is about a person, not the books.
Perhaps instead, we ought make a page about "The Christ Conspiracy" and its related sequel. After all, this article is not about the CHrist COnspiracy and Id rather mention it in passing. 
Again, itsbaou her, not her works. 
Besides, her devotees wont allow her works tobe rpoeprly treatee either, rather preferign to alter the articl ot reflect their own baises, while mokcign and denegrating anyone who wants ot present a Neutral Veiw.
Zarove
==
There was no libel... what you wrote, in effect, was a smear. As previously noted and ignored by you... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smear_tactic  
Your beliefs are evident in your actions. By removing any counter to the positions you posted... you demonstrate how and what you believe. You believe Acharya's premise to be wrong and have set about to make it read that way. 
Name one partisan rambling. What I have contributed has been in refutation.I have consistently kept to the high ground as much as possible in light of the low ground those refutations countered. What claims? You make that sound like "claims" is just another word for lies. Every criticism you have posted has been resoundingly refuted and yet you continue on as though not a word was said repeating the same old stuff over and over and over again. The criteria for proving a fact is the evidence for it...and when challenged to provide it, you have consistenly ignored it and come back with the tired old shoe that the goal for refuting you is to show her in a good light. Well, I have news for you... the goal is not to show her in a good light, it is to show how you are in your own light. 
I don't have to attack you... all I have to do is set you to showing where you are wrong, out of bounds, incompetant, and biased. The rest is history. I have no truck with beliefs... the facts are fine with me. The only time I have removed anything was to deonstrate what you were doing. In all other instances, I included what was posted and did so with a refutation to it. If what you have posted was not the best sourse, then saying so with appropriate data is precisely what should be done. 
You have posted what others have said with impunity but in your comments on these pages have made your meaning clear. Show one instance where I have promoted anything of her let alone beliefs. You called the courthouse? What courthouse would that be? Who did you speak to there that passed on such information? You called her shool? What school? Who did you speak to there that passed on information about her? You did a basic background search? Just what does that consist of?   
Your denial is seen in your responses to the material and the author. It is unspoken but crystal clear in your comments on them and your inability to accept any counter to what you have to say of them. I am not privy to what transpired between you and James but from what was said, you threatened him and he responded in kind... go back and read what was said. Correct me if I am wrong. 
As proven by your posted responses such as your constant harping of credentials, pen names, listing of opinions instead facts, inclusions of inappopriate personal information etc. and the fact that you have consistenly cried foul about any contention clainming it is to make her look good which is your excuse to remove it.  
What you have attempted to do is to have a one sided debate. That you should desire to post anything in regards to her family is just plain wrong. the fact that you are incapable of seeing that shows your level of commitment. Show where she is not taken seriously by academia. The very fact that she was accepted as a fellow in the Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion demonstrates her acceptance in acedemia because it is a very elite group that consists of highest of acedemia. I know you fought that tooth and nail but had to finally capitulate. Not sure what the jesus myth has to do with this list but I would point out that belief has nothing to do with it.  
For a journalist, you certainly are lacking in concepts... apparently, you have no idea what bullying and harrassing are about. A better command of the language, personal professionalism, principle, honesty, integrity, fairness, objectivity, and enough pride to endeavor to present a readable article are easily come by... all you have to have is the desire.    
Her legions of devotees? For all practicle purposes hter are two and the bulk of that has been me. Against how many? And you accuse me of bullying. How many have been deleted for improper behavior? And I harrass? It is a pecularity how blinders work... all that can be seen is where it is looking. 
Ha ha... thank you. 
No, I am not saying that anyone is conclusively right or wrong. From the very first instance
all that is said is that she presents a thesis, a theory, an observation based on a whole set of comparisons. Personally, it is my opinion that she is very deligent scholar but that is my opinion and this is the very first time I have said anything of my thoughts on the matter. Does she venture into areas that I hold are of beyond the boundaries of my own observations? Sure... but she has that right just as do you but that should not (as opposed to you) sully the points that she makes that are valid. 
Zarove... if the article is not about the books, then remove the criticisms that you have so steadfastly maintained. For that matter, outside stating she wrote them, remove all mention of them and see what is left. You have tried unsucessfully to perpetrate this ruse numerous times and it has yet to work.  Why don't you just drop it.
12/26/05  -el Lobo
Zarov...who do you think you are fooling! I went back to the beginning of this talk page.  You keep saying its about "Acharya"..not about her books or her views, yet right from the beginning of your own arguements and that of the others is the deliberate attempt to focus on her views!  There you are with complete arguements attempting to "focus on her work" by misrepresenting details not only about her work, but her also.  You keep repeating yourself...its about her..not about her views, but over and over, you come back to them with distortions.  Do you really think people won't go back and read them. 
--Skull 07:08, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: On that note...

message: Yawn, in an effort to be dismissive... whatever. 
12/28/05  -el Lobo
:The page now seems to me to be a reasonable and informative Wikipedia article; which is not to say it couldn't do with some tweaks. Charles Matthews 10:03, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Re: ok

message: Since someone has considered it fair to use the words of Robert Price's blanket statements, it is only fair that a response to his critique be given also outlining the silliness of it and the lack of ethics on his part.  So I am going to edit the article with a response from Acharya to reflect this disingenousness: to wit this link--http://truthbeknown.com/firesponse.htm--Skull 23:33, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  

message: I think it is a mistake to attack focus on Acharya S herself. Let's focus on her ideas. It seems clear from the various pieces I've managed to read that she isn't just a Christ-mythist, but also a Christ-conspiracist. No, I haven't read her book, but I've just put in for it over Inter-Library Loan. I suppose we could wait for me to read it, but I'd rather save some time: Can somebody please tell me what Acharya's thesis was? Yes, "Christianity absorbed some elements of other religions" is part of it, but that's not the whole of it. She clearly states that Christianity was the result of a conscious conspiracy which deliberately plagarized elements of other religions. That puts her into an entirely different realm from the Christ-as-a-myth people such as Dr. Price.
Yet the article has been reworked to remove any evidence of the Christ Conspiracy concept. From the article, it appears that Acharya is just another member of the Christ-as-a-myth mob, albeit one with the odd notion that Eastern traditions went into the mix that formed the basis for Christianity.
I have no interest in "settling" the Christ-as-myth/Christ-as-a-conspiracy debate. But we owe it to our readers to at least outline what the debate is.
I believe that if we show Acharya's true thesis in all of its glory, a seperate Criticism section will be at best just icing-on-the-cake, at worst, beating a dead horse. There will be no need to use vague comments like "poor scholarship" and "lack of primary sources". The results of such faults will be available for anybody to see.
The same goes for the biography section. She could be a little furry blue creature from Alpha Centarui for all I care. So I propose that we simply use the resume she provides at the end of her "Reponse to Wikipedia", properly citing it. It'll have to be reworked a bit - I don't think we need to tell the world who her advisor was. We can always verify it at our leisure later. We might also want to tag on the bit about her religious history (also properly cited). 
Any objections to any of that?
And yes, I do want her thesis spelled out for me. I'm going to read her book anyway, so why not save some time? crazyeddie 17:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Is the idea that religious leaders deliberately lie to people so unbelievable to you, Crazyeddie? Ever heard of "pious fraud"?  BTW, check out Acharyas updated licona rebuttle. ^^James^^ 21:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Let's Focus on the work, not the person

message: Basically, in a nutshell...
1; The whole of all world religion's are based on Astrology, what she calls "Astro-theology".
2: The story of a Dying and raising saviour is very ancient,and all the elements found in Christian mythology predate Christendom, and are found, whole cloth, in earlier stories. IE< Horus had 12 disiples, preached a semron on the mound, walked on water, was crifcified between two theives, and rose fom the dead.
3: The ancient ( SMart, peaceful, Goddess worhsipping) Pagans knew this was all a drama personifyign the sun.
4: The evil vile corrupt ROman State, run by Freemasons, Jews, ect, then wante dot unify the ORman Sttae so created a "Super" verison by combinign varisu myths into a signel eprson. ( Which makes no snece as each of the saviour socmbined each had ifential lvies ot eahc other andwhere actulaly the same person...the sun...)
5: They then forcedeveryoen to beelive in this myth as a rela hisotircal eprson.
6: Thoe who opposed 5 where slaughtered, peopel where forced to convert, sacred groces dedicate dot hee Goddes where desogyeed, and most of Ancient Literature was burned, resultign in ignroance and oppresion and widespread Illeteracy, due tot h evil, vule, corurpt HCurhc imposign tis iwll on anyoen who dared disagree.
7: The CHruch ocntinued to controle peopel brignign onthe Dark Ages. But the Heirarchs, suchas the Pope,knew the truth.
8: The evil corurpt Church then destroyed countless civilisaitons.
9: Now, vlaient, brave,and super intellegent Acharya S has revealed THE TRUTH! all a the risk of her own life!
That abotu sums it up, you can read the basic outline here.Its the artivle that her Didiples want desperatley int he linsk section. It also is the whoel reasonthey are devoted to her.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
Heres wheer ist al began, this grwintot he CHrst conspiracy, which si nohtign mor tan an expansion fothis oen aritcle.
Enjoy.
Zarove
:He refers you to the very article he's arguing against including in the article! Truly remarkable. ^^James^^ 04:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Her THesis

message: I have blocked various IP numbers 63.17.X.Y for excessive reverting, under 3RR. This is not the first time. The blocks are for 48 hours. Charles Matthews 21:01, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: 3RR blocks applied