Talk:Baptists/Archive 1

message: The external links section is getting quite long and specialized.  The Baptist Association of Israel?  We can come up with one of these for EVERY country in the world.  Is it notable enough for inclusion?  I think not.  More generally: this list of links contains a LOT of links to each of the associations, but without ANY description of what they are.  
Either these links need to be notable (e.g. mentioned IN THE TEXT itself) or they need to be removed.  Otherwise this is going to continue getting longer and longer.  --ABQCat 00:45, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the link to the Grace & Truth congregation in Israel, and moved it for now to Reformed Baptist (I looked at the site; it is a Reformed Baptist congregation in Israel). Many of the links in the Baptist article can also be found in articles about specific conventions and associations, which is probably a more appropriate place for them. As the article is expanded, many of these links that are redundant could gradually be weeded out. - Rlvaughn 23:06, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I removed the Historical Problems section from the Origins section because it added very little useful information to the article.  Gold Dragon 21:41, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: The first paragraph after the TOC uses a word which was unfamiliar to me as a practicing Baptist.  I consider myself educated and have a fairly average vocabulary for a college student.  Even so, "Distinctives" used as a synonym for "central beliefs" was a word that I had to look up in order to understand the paragraph.  From the context, the defintion may be inferred, but it is my belief that Wikipedia articles should be easily understood such that vocabulary is not a barrier to understanding.  Can anyone suggest an alternate word to use here, or perhaps add the appropriate definition to Wictionary so that we can link to it?  Thanks! --ABQCat 05:43, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Distinctives" - vocabulary as a barrier to understanding 

message: Here is a list of additions I plan to make to this document
* Baptist practice of communion (done)
* Two offices of pastor and deacon (done)
* History from separatists puritans to current day
* Trail of Blood and groups mentioned in Landmarkist theory (done)
* General worship and sermon style (done)
Gold Dragon 21:14, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote a paragraph on the practice of communion.  I also made mention of the two offices of pastor and deacon in that paragraph, though more obviously needs to be said.  I hope these additions will dovetail with your intended work. Rohirok 01:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks Rohirok.  Although if you don't mind, I would like to eventually move that paragraph to the Beliefs section with information of why Baptists believe it is symbolic in comparison to other views and incorporate more detail about opened and closed communion that the footnote discusses.  I would also like to have a different section for the two offices in the beliefs section that discuss them in more detail in comparison to other commonly used structures.  Great additions!  Gold Dragon 13:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Do List 

message: For the time being, I have restored several names that were deleted from the list of "Famous Baptists" - Jimmy Carter, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham and Martin Luther King, Jr. That edit seemed to show a kind of disapproval of what kind of Baptists they were. I would personally have quite a few theological disagreements with all four of the above mentioned men, but that doesn't change the fact that they are/were "famous" and "Baptists". Perhaps we should discuss some kind of criteria for inclusion in this list. Is it just that they are famous and happen to be Baptists? Or should their fame be something that is related to their being Baptist? For example, it would be easy to see that Charles Spurgeon's fame is directly related to his being a popular Baptist minister. In distinction, Jimmy Carter's fame was brought about by his being elected President of the United States. While President, though, Carter's Baptist connection gained some notoriety, possibly making him fitting for the list. Thoughts?? - Rlvaughn 22:27, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we have to be careful about adding people who are famous and happen to be Baptist. If we go too far with that line of thinking, we'll have Britney Spears and no telling who else! I wouldn't think that was really the intent. - Rlvaughn 12:58, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good point.  Although, I don't have that much problem with putting Britney Spears on this list if it is well known that she is a Baptist.  Since I started the Famous Baptist section on this page, does my intent matter? ;) Kidding.  I think Baptist ministers who may have been famous for other things shouldn't be a problem.  That leaves Jimmy Carter and Patrick Henry on the chopping block.  I just did a search on Patrick Henry and according to this essay on his national memorial site, he was baptised as an Anglican and attended a Presbyterian church but was never a Baptist.  Jimmy Carter is the only outlier right now and I'm inclined to keep him.  Gold Dragon 20:14, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Carter should absolutely be kept.  He is a devout Baptist, not just someone who happened to be born in a Baptist family.  Funnyhat 22:02, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

text: Ken, I think that was St. Patrick instead of St. Francis. There is a line of thought that St. Patrick was a Baptist or baptistic in theology, but since that it a controversial issue, I think your edit is a good one, encyclopedically. - Rlvaughn 12:58, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Considering the vast diversity of Baptists, I think showing that diversity is nothing but good.  Baptists have liberals and conservatives, "Protestants" and "Landmarkists," Calvinists and Arminians...and you get the picture.  Reflecting that diversity shouldn't be a bad thing -- if it gets too big, why not create a new article just for the list? SighterGoliant 2:47, 25 Apr 2006 (UTC)

text: ..., Roger Williams (who was a Baptist for a short period but became a seeker), ...
What is a 'seeker'? This seems ambiguous. Is it a Baptist technical term, does it denote lack of affiliation, or something else? Ashmoo 01:42, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Famous Baptists 

message: In the line
:..., Roger Williams (who was a Baptist for a short period but became a seeker), ...
What is a 'seeker'? This seems ambiguous. Is it a Baptist technical term, does it denote lack of affiliation, or something else? Ashmoo 01:42, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Separation of Church and State 

message: I wonder if some mention should be made of the fact that many Baptists have accused the SBC of violating some of the traditional principles of Baptism, especially with regards to increasing central control of the Church.  Given that the SBC is the largest Baptist group, such criticisms would seem a propos. john k 15:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Southern Baptists 

message: We have hit the 32K article size warning and I do think the article is getting a little too long.  I believe the Origins section is a natural one to break off into a separate page with more information on Baptist history between the separatist puritans and modern day Baptists.
While the Beliefs section seems to be the meat of the article, it is getting too long and should be moved to a separate page with short summaries remaining.  Should there be one large page for Baptist beliefs or does each section deserve its own page?
I feel that some of the lists at the bottom half of the page are getting out of hand and need to be pruned for encyclopediac value.
Any other thoughts? Gold Dragon 15:01, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I moved all references and external links to associations and baptist subgroups to the List of Baptist Sub-denomination page. Gold Dragon 15:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

text: I moved the Baptist Doctrinal Statements and Famous Baptist sections to their own pages, List of Baptist Confessions and List of Baptists respectively.  I expanded the List of Baptist Confessions page.  I believe many of the list of people pages in Wikipedia sort by date of birth and include dob and dod information which I will begin to include.  I believe the next logical move would be the Origins section into a general Baptist History page and expanding it to include history from the English Separatists to current day.  Much of this information already exists in Wikipedia on various pages so it is primarily a matter of compiling and summarizing into one general Baptist History page. Gold Dragon 15:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article size warning 

message: 69.219.54.170 suggests that because our List of Baptist is not comprehensive, it should be labeled as "List of Famous Baptists" instead of "List of Baptists".  I would agree that our list of baptists is not comprehensive.  However, there are many other lists of people on Wikipedia which are not comprehensive and they do not require the "Famous" adjective.  See "List of Scientists" or "List of Roman Catholics" for examples.  Every list of active groups will never be comprehensive and will constantly be undergoing changes.  The title "List of ________" does not normally imply every single person who would accept that label is on the list.  Gold Dragon 13:51, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Baptist 

message: The article had this line:
:"For the most part, Baptists strongly disagree with Pentecostal and charismatic teachings, specifically the practice of speaking in tongues."
which was added by an anonymous IP (which at the same time made many constructive contributions). It makes it sound as if there is disharmony between Baptists and Pentecostal & Charismatic Christians. In my experience (which includes 22 years' attendance of Baptist Churches in New Zealand, and a fair amount of mixture with my brothers and sisters in Christ who belong to other denominations), there is very little such disharmony. Indeed, I would say that there is agreement on all the "most important" issues (from certain points of view), and even agreement on a fair proportion of the Baptist distinctives given at the top of the page. This suggests a change to include "some" or "a few" before "Pentecostal and charismatic teachings".
However, I'm not sure about the specific example of speaking in tongues, either. Although I've heard that it used to be the case that some Charismatics taught that anyone who had the Holy Spirit could speak in tongues, I can't remember coming across anyone claiming this in my 22 years. The teaching I've come across in Baptist Churches in New Zealand (specifically, usually in Lower Hutt) is that speaking in tongues is a Gift of the Holy Spirit that is given to some people (sometimes only temporarily), just like any other Gift of the Spirit.
What does everyone think? What does that sentence add to the article? Should we try to rework it and put it back, or should we just leave it out? T J McKenzie 10:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparisons with other denominations