Talk:John J. McCloy

message: John J. McCloy -- love him or hate him -- was a larger than life figure in the workings of U.S. public policy from the 1930's to the 1970's. A prominent attorney, a federal official, a designated "wise-man" in the Cold War era, Wikipedia readers should expect a neutral, first class article about this man. The previous attempted to create a McCloy page seem to be related to editors interested in expressing a POV not about McCloy, but about many of the issues that he faced in his various rolls as a senior government advisor to Roosevelt, Stimson, Truman, etc. This is simply not appropriate for an encyclopedia article (but very appropriate for many other outlets.)
Since the earlier "firestorm" of 2006 on this article has seemed to pass, I'll be working in the sandbox to bring up an complete re-write, and I'll be interested in hearing from anyone who wants to assist in the initial work. There are many sections to write, and many original sources on line (including the Truman, LBJ, Kennedy Library oral history collections). Please let me know if you are interested. Sclarkson 12:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Complete Re-write Required and Underway 

message: it was only yesterday (05/31/06) that I added information on McCloy's noxious role in preventing an allied air assult on Auschwitz. my sources are Martin Gilbert's 'Auschwiz and Allies" and Stuart Erdheim's article "could the Allies have bombed Auschwitz?". my input, desparately needed given the previously sanitised treatment of the touchy matter, was deleted.
 my "editor" did not even deem fit to explain his reasons, though they appear to me as self-evident
 as they are contemptible. unless he/she or others can in some way challenge the veracity 
of my information-they cannot, of course- they must rfrain from such cowardly vandalism.
 Present-day Americans may be uncomfortable with their country's occasionally dubious role
 during WW2 and its immediate aftermath, being satisfied with a cartoonishly oversimplistic
 image of snow white heroic idealism, but the truth must and will be revealed
PBS's page on the story (see external links) seems to provide a fairly good synopsis of the disputed points.  Phrases like "A downright lie" certainly don't belong on Wikipedia as NPOV.  And while his role in preventing the bombing of Auschwitz (or at least not endorsing it) seems fairly well-established, the basis for that is largely on the bombing of nearby industrial centers, not on the allocation of different types of bombers. Deusnoctum 23:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further evidence of need for style and citations 

message: By itself, McCloy's letter is not self-contradictory.  He says that only some (i.e., heavy) bombers could reach Auschwitz, and that those (relatively) few bombers that could were needed elsewhere.  Whether the latter statement was, in fact, true is another matter, and based on the documents available (see PBS links at bottom) it seems quite likely that they are not.  However, viewed by itself his letter is logically consistent.  Also, this is meant to be an encyclopedia, saying that bombing the labor camp would be "a drop in the ocean" is stylistically bad, and does not reflect a neutral POV (likewise, calling Roosevelt's record "deplorable").  Finally, I was able to find no information about Nahum Goldman making a request specifically to McCloy to bomb Auschwitz, or about McCloy saying that targeting was a British responsibility, which is why I initially removed those statements.  If you can find sources for them, please list them.  Deusnoctum 17:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There was a very good reason for the pardons, see Cold War (1947–1953). Releasing a criminal early is not white-washing, and not a full pardon.86.42.196.156 (talk) 23:45, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV, factual accuracy/sourcing 

message: Please can the  and the anonymous user kindly comment at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-20 John J. McCloy, a case sumbitted by Deusnoctum which I shall mediate if both parties agree. Also, can I kindly ask the anonymous user to create an account, to make this whole process easier? Computerjoe's talk 18:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: I saw this on the 3rd opinion page, but now I see a mediation case... but the mediation case is older than the 3rd opinion request.  What's going on?  Is a third opinion needed?  Is this the same dispute that lead to the mediation?  Has the mediation case been resolved?  Some clarification would be appreciated.  ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 16:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  3rd opinion 

message: "in 1919, and then received an LL.B. from Harvard Law School in 1921" -- Delete "then," since (1) it's unnecessary, and (2) it's inaccurate: it wasn't "then" (1919) that he "received an LL.B."
"McCloy was a crucial voice in setting U.S. military priorities" -- McCloy's voice was a voice, but he himself was a person.  Say either that he _had_ a voice or that _he_ was crucial.
"throughout late 1944" -- To say that something occurred "throughout late 1944" seems to me to imply that it had a precise beginning, which I doubt is intended.
"Nazi prisoners" -- This seems to refer to prisoners of the Nazis, but "prisoners who are Nazis" is the more natural interpretation.
 
"camp-and" -- The hyphen should be replaced by a dash.
"Roosevelt's generally unsympathetic response to the Holocaust" -- If Roosevelt were unsympathetic to the Holocaust, he would have wanted to stop it.  How does that explain his reluctance to bomb Auschwitz?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by D021317c (talk • contribs) 18:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Word choice 

message: 1) The Dino Brugioni discovery of Arial Recon of Auschwitz I does not support the facts as states. Further bombers and recon planes are not one in the same. Please get the fact straight. It is a controversial matter, but the above is most definately not NPOV nor is is properly reference.
2) Regarding Beschloss claim that FDR himself dis-allowed the bombing of Auscwitz a) Please see this link which directly contrdicts the Beschlos citation http://hnn.us/articles/4268.html b) According to Michael Berenbaum (as personal corespondence) No evidence exists the FDR was ever aware of the bombing requests.
Lastly, yes McCloy's role in the affair is no doubt indeed problematic, yet let's use citations and when we do so, make sure they are sustainable.
"The War Department was petitioned throughout late 1944 to help save Nazi prisoners by ordering the bombing of the railroad lines leading to Auschwitz and the gas chambers in the camp.  McCloy responded that only heavy bombers would be able to reach the sites from England, and that those bombers would be too vulnerable and were needed elsewhere.  However, only a few months earlier, Allied forces had bombed industrial centers just a few kilometers away from the extermination camp, and would continue to do so, apparently even causing some damage to buildings in Auschwitz, while sustaining very low losses. Indeed, regular US bombing raids from Foggia, Italy to nearby strategic targets routinely crossed right over Auschwitz en route.  Dino Brugioni and Robert Poirier, CIA photo analysts, whose revelatory 1944 file photos of Auschwitz taken from US bombers passing directly overhead, and 1978 refutation of John McCloy's lies about bombing "feasibility", were printed in THE NEW YORK TIMES and elsewhere in 1979. President Jimmy Carter personally directed the release of these photos and their 1978 interpretation.  On another occasion, when replying to another appeal to bomb the gas chambers, McCloy claimed that the final decision on the selection of bombing targets, including those attacked by American planes, lay with the British alone. This was an incorrect claim. According to Michael Beschloss, in an interview three years before the latter's death (in 1986) with Henry Morgenthau, III, McCloy claimed that the decision not to bomb Auschwitz was President Roosevelt's and that he was merely fronting for him. Beschloss  This appears possible, given Roosevelt's generally unsympathetic response to the Holocaust, but is otherwise unsupported. Further, McCloy also alleged to Morgenthau that Roosevelt refused to approve the Auschwitz rail bombing because he would then be accused of also killing Auschwitz prisoners.  As they were about to be gassed en masse anyway, this allegation by McCloy is highly suspect and self-serving.  In the early 1970s, McCloy claimed that he himself "could no more order a bombing attack on Auschwitz than order a raid on Berlin."  Letter from John J. McCloy to Donald L. Pevsner, following Pevsner's citing to McCloy of the damning allegations in "While Six Million Died", by Arthur D. Morse (1967)."
*I've restored the deletions, which appear to go far beyond the complaint raised here. Perhaps the editor could be clearer about the problem with the sources.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 18:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that comprehensive reply. You raise many issues and it'll take me a while to get through them. Let me start with the easy ones. Regarding the Beschloss book: It was published by a mainstream, respected publisher, Simon & Schuster, and excerpted in a respected newsmagazine, Newsweek. Therefore it is a reliable source. If there are other reliable sources that have different views we can include those too, but it is inappropriate to simply delete all mention of it. On Wikipedia we should include all significant points of view, not just those that are unopposed. As for the NY Times, I'll check their archive tonight and see if I can find the specific article mentioned. If it's there and contains the purported information, then it is like the Beschloss material in that it should be included though opposing viewpoints can also be included.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:33, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

text: McCloy is mentioned many times in the New York Times. It'll take me a while to go through all of it. One article that does not mention him is about the release  of photos of Birkenau. Dated February 24, 1979, it says that aerial photos of the nearby I.G. Farben chemical plant taken in 1944 included images of camp officers marching prisoners to the gas chamber-crematorium compound. The Times also ran two separate reviews of Less Than Slaves by Benjamin Ferencz. That book apparently discusses  McCloy's role in commuting the sentences of several Farben executives, but not decisions about bombing the concentration camps.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 21:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

text: Randy, I've restored your deletions again. However I deleted the two items that were marked with  tags. I suggest that, rather than just deleting whole hunks of the article, you mark the specific facts that you think need beeter sources. I'm not interested in getting into a debate about the past, just in improving this article.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 05:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed for Lack of Proper Citation 

message: The article needs more on his career as a lawyer. Obviously Holocaust students find his lack of urgency unwelcome, but this article is about him and he did not arrange or approve of the camp murders. As with the British RAF, the choice of targets was a function of military staffs, not politicians. I have found a case in 1934 where he reopened an action for damages against Germany, so he cannot be accused of being entirely pro-German. In the late-1940s Cold War the lesser Nazi criminals like Weiszacker were suddenly useful to the USA, and McCloy's priority was always to augment the power of America and its allies.86.42.255.68 (talk) 14:05, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Had the railways to the camp been bombed, the inmates would have starved from lack of food that was carried by rail. Which was worse? An unpleasant choice for anyone.86.44.148.159 (talk) 18:16, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

text: Yes, we can't judge anyone only by their input into the bombing decision. In 1944 Churchill wanted the death camps bombed by the RAF if feasible, and was advised by the Air Ministry that it was not. Implying that it was McCloy's decision is just plain wrong.86.42.195.218 (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Perspective needed

message: I removed this sentence:
(In 1978 Ernst Weizsacker's son German President Richard von Weizsäcker conferred honorary German Citizenship on McCloy)
There are a number of things wrong with this statement.
First, Weizsäcker was a regular member of parliament in 1978, which severly limits the kinds of things he could have bestowed on anyone at that time.
Second, it turns out there is no such thing as "honorary citizenship of Germany", at least not according to The Internet.
Also, WP:DE makes no mention of honorary citizenship for McCloy, though "citizen of honor" for the city of Berlin was bestowed in 1985 on the occasion of his 90th birthday (which is well after Richard von Weizsäcker's tenure as mayor of Berlin, so even this hook fails to sink into the paragraph).
i have no good reason for noting all of this here, now, except that these are the things my research into the matter begat. sorry! Doceddi (talk) 15:35, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Purported honorary citizenship of Germany

message: This article needs a lot of work. 
Where is any mention of the fact that he chose to pardon convicted war criminals (cf Krupp), restore their estates, etc?
Also, the sentence '..he was merely fronting for him...':  seriously?  'Fronting?' Fronting is in no way a term that should be employed in a reference work. Save that for Twitter.
96.26.64.244 (talk) 09:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing Info 

message: This article also needs information on McLoy's role in advocating against the use of atomic weapons against Japan during World War II. Extensive interviews with him can be seen in S01E24 of The World at War "The Bomb" (see http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x125ml3_the-world-at-war-ep24-the-bomb_shortfilms min 18:30 begins one interview). joepaT 20:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Atomic Bombing Debate - info needed (January 2014) Suggestion 

message: This article was heavily vandalized, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_J._McCloy&diff=559819629&oldid=559578792
Maybe someone finds time to import the deleted but sourced information again? --178.197.224.196 (talk) 20:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Report vandalism 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It appears as though this subject has been mentioned here years ago on a few other occasions. While McCloy's role in the controversy should be touched on here, whatever in-depth coverage of that controversy should be reserved for discussion in Auschwitz concentration camp. I have solicited additional feedback in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. -Location (talk) 15:31, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: McCloy and Auschwitz

message: "The actions were unanimously upheld by the US Supreme Court."
WHAT ACTIONS?"
McCloy was strongly opposed to reopening the judicial verdicts on the constitutionality of the internment."
WHAT VERDICTS?
This discussion is hopelessly obscure. Please fix it. ---Dagme (talk) 22:08, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Internment of Japanese Americans