Talk:Olof Palme/Archive 1

message: The current article says, "Sweden is the prime example of social democracy, prospering considerably under the leadership of Olof Palme", but this is a statement most Swedish people with a liberal view would disagree with. In my opionion, Sweden changed rapidly during Palmes reign, and the economical decline that plagued us during the 70's, 80's and 90's, started when he decided to make a left turn in economic policies. Therefore I have marked that section as lacking a NPOV.
::Nobody can honestly can say that Sweden prospered under Palme. The economic decline became severe during the 1980's and 1990's due private enterprise becoming government controlled, others private industies started leaving Sweden due to the increasing socialist policies. I agree with the above.--75.1.251.131 07:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Olof Palme was a politician who everybody in Sweden has an opinion on, and those opinions are usually clearly divided into a love-hate split. This continues even today, and the opinions about his actions and the effects they had is similarly split. It also depends a lot on from which strata of society you look. For this reason, the truth of the matter is very much a matter of opinion, and I think it's unwise to comment about it at all in this context, as it simply can not be NPOV.212.85.68.44 11:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sweden prospering under the leadership of Olof Palme is disputed

message: olofpalme.org is aboslutely not the official page. There is no official page! It should be change to unofficial. --212.247.27.165 19:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed to "unofficial".Phase4 19:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone just keeps changing it back all the fucking time! --212.247.27.126 23:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: olofpalme.org

message: My latest revert of this article was done for the purpose of changing statements that could be seen as subjective. I know that most of us are fans of the late Olof Palme, as am I, but to say that he "...had a profound effect on people's emotions..." and that the newer generations of Social Democrats "stood further to the left than their predecessors...", and present these as fact without citations goes against principles of objectivity. We cannot treat this as a work of political journalism. As soon as someone finds the necessary citations, these statements can stay, but until then, they are far too subjective, in my opinion, to be accepted. I will revert the enstatement of these statements until citations are provided. (EnglishEfternamn 01:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing Subjective Statements

message: Maybe it is time to create a separate article on the murder and investigation with its many different leads, like the one on the Swedish wiki (sv:Palmemordet). This article is already more than half its size on the murder. I think this article should concentrate on Olof Palme's life, views and actions, and that it should mention the murder more briefly and instead have a wikilink to a separate article dealing with just the murder. 
-Bronks 26 feb 2006.
Just like there is a separate article on the Kennedy assasination. (John F. Kennedy assassination). -Bronks 26 feb 2006.
I just added a little about the recent development.
And I agree, there should be a separate article about the murder.
I'm too lazy to log in, somebody else can do it. Roger
I agree. Some translation from the Swedish page on the murder would be great too. But let's wait until it goes off the front page to do any big changes. --Apoc2400 12:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a very good idea. Who wants to start translating? Astor Piazzolla 13:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Before "just cutting this one in half" let's first have a look at your proposed "expanded article on Palme himself, life, politics, legacy": sounds as though it could be quite an interesting addition!Phase4 18:27, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Create a Separate Article on the Murder

message: In the current version of the articles, one can read
:According to a documentary program aired on the Swedish television channel SVT in February 2006, associates of Petterson claimed that he had confessed to them his role in the murder... In light of these latest revelations, Swedish police undertook to review Palme's case. However, the newspaper Dagens Nyheter of February 28, 2006 ridiculed the TV documentary, alleging that the filmmaker had fabricated statements and had omitted contradictory sources.
This is true. but one should add the fact that it was not the newspaper itself that ridiculed the new statements, but it was to televisions journalists who in a letter-to-the-editor did this. At the same time it should be mentioned that these two journalists run a somewhat different story on the Palme case, more leaning towards the right-wing-extremist trace. Astor Piazzolla 13:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New evidence ridiculed in ''Dagens Nyheter'' 

message: To the sentence "The appeal succeeded mainly because the murder weapon had not been found, Strangnet added ...and because the witness line-up with wife Lisbet, when she pointed out Pettersson, was found to be compromised - she knew beforehand that a known alcoholic and substance abuser had been arrested." The addition – if it is to stand – needs to be sourced. Please provide a citation.Phase4 10:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll look into if there's an article online - otherwise it should be found in the sentencing from the court from what I understand. It's also mentioned in the book by Poutiainen "Inuti Labyrinten" ("Inside the labyrinth") from 1994 --Strangnet 05:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a passage in the special commission's report on the criminal investigation into the murder  (page 736) that highlights the fact that the high court couldn't find the widow Lisbet's identification of Pettersson to be valid due to her remark that "it's obvious who's the alcoholic" when she identified number 8 (Pettersson) in the line-up as the shooter. --Strangnet 06:27, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't have any soruces to refer to right now, but I think everyone in Sweden knows that Lisbet Palme's testemony was considered poor, becouse the police had already told her that they guy they had in costady was an alcholic and a small time criminal, and when Lisbet saw the line upp she spotted Petterson and said something like: "that looks like an alochlic, it is him!" (Also all the other people in the line up were cops and still wearing their black unifor pants.) Bronks 10:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The source referred to is in Swedish. Apart from apparently putting Lisbet Palme in a disadvantageous light, it doesn't actually add anything to the text of the (English) article. Proverbially, I suggest we "let sleeping dogs lie".Phase4 22:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are three main points why Pettersson was acquitted: the missing gun, the missing motive and the fact that the court didn't find Lisbet's witness testimony pointing out a shooter to be credible (both regarding the line-up as well as the stress she must've been under when the shots were fired). I think all three should be mentioned. I don't think the lack of translated official government material should disqualify facts from being entered. "Letting sleeping dogs lie" is exactly what the whole investigation has been about the last 20 years ;) --Strangnet 03:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Strangnet is obviously right and I really don't get why Phase4 is objecting to including this point. It should of course be sourced, as should everything else in the article, but I don't see why one of the most well-known and debated issues with the investigation and trial should not be mentioned in the article. Phase4, I got the impression before (when we were discussing the article on the Swedish Wikipedia) that you read Swedish - was I wrong? up+land 05:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Strangnet edit

message: Soman recently erased my factually correct passages with the explanation of (to my knowledge, no foreign state treated the Baltic SSRs as disputed territory. One could say that Petsamo and Kaliningrad are occupied territories as well, by same logic.) 
Unfortunately this proves that Soman has not the simplest knowledge of the matter. In fact, the US announced already in July 1940, that they do not recognise the annexation de jure.  No democratic Western state did it ever since. Sweden recognised the annexation de fact and was nearing de jure recognition, but this does not change the matter. Thus, the Baltic SSRs have never legally existed (ex iniuria iuria non obiter, is it?). I've heard that in the US some maps were printed with the Baltics marked as a territories annexed by the USSR, without international recognition. 
I'd be glad if User:Soman gave me his/her sources for the alternate view.--Constanz - Talk 15:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was unaware of the US decision. But, wherein lies the distinction between US line 'not to recognise annexation de jure' and recognising the annexation 'de facto'? --Soman 15:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These terms are elementary. Also, no state except for Sweden (and, I wonder if also Finland) even recognised de facto. --Constanz - Talk 15:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[User:Soman]]'s comments revealing his/her lack of knowledge

message: Olof Palme spent his holidays on the island of Fårö, which at that time was off limits to foreigners. Seems to me both relevant and NPOV. One may draw conclusions either defending this by saying that it was military area or not defending it by saying that a fighter against apartheid spent his holidays in a 'swedes only' holiday resort, but the mere fact can not be denied so I put it in the article again.
Rindert 06:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Mention of his choice of holiday destination sits very strangely with the rest of the Olof Palme article. You say it seems both relevant and NPOV: as it stands, I don't think it is even worthy of mention. Are you saying that Palme holidayed on Fårö every year of his life, or just occasionally, or between certain crucial dates? If the edit is to stay, you will need to give a much fuller explanation and please provide a source (preferably an English-language one) for what you say is a "fact".Phase4 12:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

text: You talk, Rindert, but all I hear is mumbo-jumbo. Bronks was right to remove your very strange edit from the Olof Palme article.Phase4 20:54, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holidays on Fårö, an island that is off-limits to foreigners 

message: I'll say: aside from comparing a people starting war and infinite killings each and every 10 years, with one that didn't war for 200 years, Olof Palme didn't be on the border of starting WW3 because of megalomania and full of drugs. The comparison is deeply shaming and not NPOV. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 07:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While I tend to personally agree with you, I removed it for another reason; the reference does not back up a comparison between OP and JFK. mceder (u t c) 15:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Who dare compare Olof Palme Murder with JFK Murder??

message: I have just completed a book by Wayne Thallon (Devil Incarnate) about a British born mercenary (Athol Visser) who's family finally settled in Rhodesia. He made his way through the ranks of certain overt and covert army units and orginizations. He claims that he orchestrated the assasination of Olof Palme while woking for a secret South african orginization who apposed any anti-apartheid movement. Assasanations were carried out by Athol Visser against foreign and domestic targets in Europe.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolandram (talk • contribs) 10:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for this. I've added a piece about Athol Visser to the Olof Palme assassination article.Phase4 16:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Athol Visser

message: He was shot February 28 but pronounced dead March 1.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.161.87 (talk) 15:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I made edits to that effect in June 2007, but they seem to have been reverted by Slebbert in July (regarding end of term) and by Slarre very recently (regarding date of death). I can't see any good reason for these reversions. He was pronounced dead at 00:06, so it might of course be conceivable that he did die before midnight, but going by anything other than the official record would be mere speculation. -- Jao (talk) 16:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to official Swedish national registration records, Palme's death date was 28 February (see the discussion at the Swedish Wikipedia). Also Nationalencyklopedin and Encyclopædia Britannica refers to his death date as 28 February. /Slarre (talk) 17:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Now that is a good reason, I feel a little bad for not checking the records, which I could easily have done. I have no explanation for the apparent discrepancy, so I'll not meddle in this again (at least not unless I should happen to find one). -- Jao (talk) 17:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The paragraph quite clearly (and correctly) states that he was "the Prime Minister of Sweden with a Privy Council Government from 1969 to 1976 and a cabinet government from 1982 until his assassination in 1986" (my bold). Perhaps an additional "with" or "again with" after the "and" would make it better worded? -- Jao (talk) 17:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just saw your correction to my earlier change. Sorry about the mistake of saying that it was continuous. Window Mattress (talk) 17:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No problem. And by the way, it's much clearer now than before your edit. -- Jao (talk) 18:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I made a small change, which I believe is slightly clearer. Window Mattress (talk) 14:22, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of death? 

message: The former head (1983-1993) of the Swedish Trade Union Confederation, Stig Malm, in 2006 expressed surprise that "so few Social Democrat politicians today refer to what happened during the almost 17 years during which Olof Palme led the party" http://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/article357126.ab. A leading Swedish daily newspaper noted that most books about Palme are about his murder, and perhaps his legacy suffers because of all the attention on the murder http://www.svd.se/kulturnoje/nyheter/artikel_294418.svd. But there are some solid and plausible reasons for the somewhat weak interest in Palme today in Sweden:
* The domestic policies that Mr. Palme helped implement as prime minister are to a large extent being abandoned - there is talk of "the abandoned legacy of Olof Palme" http://www.nnn.se/. Actions that took place during his time as prime minister, such as the nationalization of all drug stores in 1970, are now being undone by the ruling center-right government without much protest from Mr. Palme´s Social Democratic Partyhttp://www2.apoteket.se/Apoteket/om/Aktuellt/Tidplanen_for_apoteksmonopolets_avskaffande_forskjuts.htm. 
* Former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt, a political opponent of Mr. Palme, has written a lengthy critique of Mr. Palme´s policies and views. As reasons for the low interest in palme today, Bildt cites Palme´s relatively poor performance in elections compared to his predecessors, his failed wage-earners funds and "his attitude towards the socialist systems of the Soviet empire".  Mr. Bildt ends his piece with the statement that Palme´s "world was a different one - we have moved on" http://bildt.blogspot.com/2006/02/legacy-of-olof-palme.html. That is a statement that the left, right and center of Swedish politics today probably can agree on.
* In connection with a 1977-78 prostitution scandal involving the then Minister of Justice Lennart Geijer, Mr. Palme made certain statements that have later proven to have been deliberate lies. This came to light when documents were declassified in 1991, after Mr. Palme´s death http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=554&a=354155
* In the early 1990´s, declassified documents showed that Prime Minister Palme, as well his predecessor Tage Erlander, had presided over active cooperation with US military despite Sweden´s official position of neutrality and non-alignment. President Kennedy had even issued a secret national security guarantee in 1962http://www.svd.se/kulturnoje/understrecket/artikel_249217.svd which was in force until the end of the Cold War. The existence of the guarantee was in direct contradiction to Mr. Palme´s and Sweden´s official stance of non-alignment and neutrality. It also appeared that Mr. Palme´s sometimes strident criticism of US policies and his active support of it´s enemies (e.g. North Vietnam and Cuba) was only possible precisely because the security guarantee was a secret. The picture that emerged of Mr. Palme when these documents came out was not flattering.
* There are also questions about Mr. Palme´s involvement a weapons purchase by India, a deal now commonly referred to as the Bofors Scandal http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070303/nation.htm#1 If Mr. Palme did indeed agree to the alleged terms, it would have been in contravention of Swedish government policy to not sell to belligerents actively involved in a conflict.
* The many proven lies and hypocrisy have left many wondering whether alleged lies and actions of hypocrisy might also be true.
These could be some of the reasons why leaders even in the Swedish Social Democratic Party, of which Mr. Palme was a member, are unlikely to mention Mr. Palme by name in a speech other than in bringing up his unsolved murder. Mr. Palme´s legacy is highly controversial, so is Richard Nixon´s - neither of their respective parties today talk about them much because doing so is unlikely to bring in new voters or to energize their political base. Raskrask (talk) 23:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legacy in Sweden 

message: The "police trail" http://perkvist.mpbloggar.se/category/palmemordet/ in swedish. Check it out!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.52.79.24 (talk) 09:01, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theory that for some strange reason was not investigated by the police 

message: There is an article in Die Zeit form 1996 bringing strong arguments in favor of a conspiracy of right-wing members of the police force to commit the murder:
Should this be added to the article? What were the arguments against this lead and why was it ultimately dismissed?  Andreas  (T) 01:53, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: See Anti Avsan. I plan to transfer the information that is written there to this article.  Andreas  (T) 14:52, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Murdered by members of the police? 

message: He was murdered but it may not have been an assassination. Assassination involved deliberate intent. It is claimed that the prime suspect Christer Pettersson, may have killed him by accident as he had intended to kill someone else.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by BernardZ (talk • contribs) 17:58, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  assassination ???

message: The text reads Palme and Fidel Castro issued "a joint statement vindicating Pol Pot's takeover in Cambodia".  It is sourced to an editorial and a book by an opponent, Per Ahlmark.  Both sources are in Swedish, but the editorial does not appear to use that phrasing.  A 2001 article by Ahlmark says, "They even confirmed their happiness that the struggles for freedom of "the Vietnamese and Cambodian peoples have been crowned with victory.""  It seems doubtful that they would have mentioned Pol Pot because the nominal leader was Norodom Sihanouk.  Before reporting what was said we need a reliable source and any interpretation must be supported by inline citations.  I will therefore remove the sentence.  TFD (talk) 05:13, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cambodia 

message: The link to Swedish article from the English article going to Bordellhärvan". I tried to fix but I cant! This is really wrong and must be fixed! Really a disgrace and the kind of things that gives wikipedia a bar reputation!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonicsonia (talk • contribs) 19:09, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Added colon to link to Sw. WP.  Andreas  (T) 22:03, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  link from english to swedish  

message: I think this bit could be more clear. These claims have _not_ been proved, and the first one is only based on what Shirley MacLaine said. I think the first sentence could be re-written from 
"Palme and American actress Shirley MacLaine were lovers for several years during Palme's years as a prime minister, with Palme all the while entertaining many other affairs, among others with a wealthy communist woman, according to MacLaine"
to a much more clear
"American actress Shirley MacLaine claims she and Palme were lovers [...]" removing the "according to MacLaine" at the end. None of the sources mention anything else than Shirleys account as a source for the claims, and it should be made more clear that this is her claims only.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.239.121.157 (talk) 10:07, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed this section altogether, as it gives WP:UNDUE weight to one individual's (very small minority viewpoint) unverifiable claims about a dead person. The citations given don't demonstrate wide coverage in media about her claims. --hydrox (talk) 18:39, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done for taking it out. --John (talk) 18:54, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  extramarital affairs? 

message: There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages. 
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion. 
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion|Request for Comments]] 

message: Isn't is rather subjective to call Palme a "politician, statesman "?Royalcourtier (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Statesman? 

message: This had appeared: " Palme was on good terms with Robert Mugabe, the autocratic strongman and president of Zimbabwe who was for many years a popular figure among left-leaning intellectuals, particularly in Europe. "Hjälten har blivit grym diktator ", Aftonbladet, April 18, 2000."
I removed it as at best an anachronism (and at worst a smear); at the time of Palme's assassination Mugabe was on "good terms" with most world leaders, as he was seen as a stabilizing force. It would in fact be surprising if Palme was not on good terms with Mugabe in the early 1980s. His decline in popularity in the West (not just among "left-leaning intellectuals," where his popularity was never exclusively based) occurred after Palme's death. See Wikipedia's own entry on the history of Zimbabwe for a more balanced view.  Doprendek (talk) 08:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mugabe had it's critics even before he became more unpopular. The Marxist Mugabe was a darling among especially left-leaning politicians. So that should be in the article, if it's properly referenced. --197.229.145.237 (talk) 21:30, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Communist insurgents like the Sandinistas. He also supported terrorist Communists fronts like the ANC. So what's the point? --41.146.19.71 (talk) 21:34, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

text: I agree with all that Doprendek writes and the editing action taken.Phase4 (talk) 10:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of references to Mugabe and Baltics 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Olof Palme. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110720104338/http://info.lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/castro/1975/19750729 to http://info.lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/castro/1975/19750729
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 11:42, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Olof Palme. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20081031141500/http://www.palmecenter.org:80/ to http://www.palmecenter.org/
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:04, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I made a minor edit although someone may think differently.  It said he attended the Kenyon College of Ohio in 1947-1948 and graduated in less than a year.  I looked at the link and it says no such thing.  It says he graduated in 1948 and that is it.  He may have graduated in 'less than a year', but that was after matriculating at the University of Sweden.Mylittlezach (talk) 17:30, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education 

message: The last paragraph of the section Political Career contains the wording "He was very popular among the left, but harshly detested by most liberals and conservatives.[8]"  
How does this make any sense?  The note [8] does not seem even to say this, and if ít did, I think it should still be deleted as contributing nothing but confused thinking.  I don't know if the Weasel Words concept applies, but maybe Doublespeak, or Newspeak.  Rags (talk) 04:13, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Popularity 

message: Discrepancy between the text here and the text on the Swedish article (see https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Palme) According to the Swedish article, he did his service in the cavalry/ranger part of the Swedish army 1944 - 1948 and became a lieutenant after a combat course in 1956. Neither article has a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.13.245.188 (talk) 13:12, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Military service