Talk:Mourning sickness

message: I'd like to include all the relevant and encyclopedic details involving the exhibition of mourning sickness that occurred on the web following her death. Feel free to be BOLD and add it (with sources of course ;p). However, it's important not to have this one section overwhelm the article. Rather then clutter up the Anna Svidersky AfD, let's hammer out the details and balance here. AgneCheese/Wine 08:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anna Svidersky section

message: Sources would have to be found to avoid OR, but this has surely occurred throughout history with the death of famous people.  I recall reading a comparison between the mourning for Princess Diana with a similar occurrence over the death of a famous church man, a cardinal I think, probably Victorian, but my memory is a bit hazy over it. What has happened recently is that someone has given it a name. Tyrenius 00:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Historic examples

message: I'm going to propose a merge to Mourning.  This is really a commentary on a certain kind of mourning.  I don't see how it can be an article on its own when the topic is really just the subjective opinions of commentators. Steve Dufour 01:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Incorrect. It's a communal phenomenon that is distinct from the emotion of mourning. One is an act, the other is an emotion. A merge would be inappropriate. AgneCheese/Wine 02:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is the proper role of encyclopedists to sit in judgement over other people's emotions. Steve Dufour 05:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And who is? This article starts and ends with the info provided by available reliable sources who have coined and utilized the term "Mourning sickness" to describe this communal phenomenon. Do note that these sources do not categorizes this as "Mass Mourning" which would be the emotion of mourning felt on a mass scale (and would be appropriate in the Mourning article) but rather they deal with the subject as its own individual act and subject matter. As encyclopedists, it is our duty to not  manufacturer connections and blur topics together when they are treated different by our reliable sources. Simply put, it's a bit of OR to assume that Mourning and Mourning Sickness should be blended together. AgneCheese/Wine 06:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: This would be too large a section in that article and it is better as a discrete entry.  violet/riga (t) 08:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then, at the very least, this article should be given a new name.  The expression "mourning sickness", although very clever, is always going to be a value judgement.  BTW it's social commentators that should be making value judgements on other people's opinions, not encyclopedists. Steve Dufour 12:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I like it as it is because in some ways it has little to do with mourning.  Mourning is usually associated with severe grief on losing a close family member or partner, a close friend or a highly regarded member of the community in which there is much emotional investment (Kennedy, Reagan, Duke of Wellington, Winston Churchill).  There is a tipping point at which the community may sometimes engage in collective mourning behavior that seems so inappropriate that some members of the community comment on it.  This article is about that perception of inappropriateness, rather than about mourning itself. --Tony Sidaway 13:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It really has problems as an encyclopedia article if it is just about people's perceptions.  Again, I agree with the opinions expressed about excessive and self-centered mourning behavior.  But that is what they are: opinions.  I don't think you could have an encyclopedia article about "SUVs that are excessively large" or "Rock music that is excessively loud". - Steve Dufour 01:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: The redirect is lame, and the heavy-handed hist merge that one admin performed (with good intentions, I'm sure) is weird, misleading and, from what I can tell, defies AfD and talk page consensus.  "Mourning sickness," whatever that goofy neologism means, is hardly the only or primary encylopedic aspect of this notable person. The old Svidersky article can be edited further to resolve policy or style concerns you might have.  I'm also pasting this comment on the Mourning sickness talk page, since this page is currently kind of hard to access.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 10:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Anna Svidersky > Mourning sickness

message: I removed a  tag for a cited fact before noticing the page was protected. If anyone asks, I can undo my edit. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry for editing, can revert 

message: Conclusion of the current version of this article: "manufactured grief, complete with flowers and teddy bears, is the new opiate of the masses." While there's a footnote to this sentence pointing to The Independent, if it's what that newspaper wrote about Mourning sickness, then we need quotation marks. Otherwise, it's difficult not to read this clause as anything other than a condescending POV upon the phenomena -- & not appropriate lanugage for Wikipedia. -- llywrch 19:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the language is a bit off for us.  It wasn't a direct quote (although a reasonable rephrasing, I guess), so I've changed it. --tiny plastic Grey Knight ⊖ 15:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ugh 

message: I've asked that this page be unprotected .  Consensus seems to be that the Anna Svidersky redirect is a bad idea (see rFC here).  If we unprotect this article, we can restore the merged Svidersky content.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 12:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unprotect

message: Interesting entry  gives "recreational grief" as an alternative term, which might be mentioned, as could "grief tourism". Tyrenius 16:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: MacMillan English Dictionary

message: Irrespective of the above debate on deletion, it has been suggested that "mourning sickness" is a neologism and probably not the best name for an article. Does anyone have suggestions for a better name? >Radiant< 13:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Collective grief? Tyrenius 13:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

text: *There was also the death of a cleric (a cardinal, if I recall correctly) in UK, maybe late Victorian or 1930s, when the same thing happened.  There was a mass wave of grief of a similar nature to the Princess Diana one. Tyrenius 16:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Has anyone done a wikipedia search for "grief" together with words like "collective", "hysteria" (I know it's not PC), "mass", "group", "social"? It will take a while, but we might find some existing articles that refer to the same phenomenon or a similar one. DCDuring 17:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree. We should probably rename this article to something like 'collective grieving' or 'collective mourning'; it is undoubtedly a real phenomenon, but the current name we have for it is a neologism of dubious notability. Terraxos (talk) 21:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As for historical precedents, the first such instance that comes to my mind is the death of Valentino  in 1926, which suggests the likelihood that communal expressions of grief are nothing new, but (original research alert) possibly intensified in the 20th century with the introduction of movie stars and public sex symbols. JNW (talk) 03:05, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Valentino? Try Germanicus. In fact, look at Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great. This is not a new phenomenon in the least. The only difference now is that the mass media are also involved. --NellieBly (talk) 12:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propose renaming 

message: Is there still a reason for the neutrality tag? It was applied in August 07. I appreciate that perhaps the article should be renamed, but I think that's a different issue. Sam Staton (talk) 13:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: So what parts of grief porn should be imported, and what parts replace some of the info here? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made an initial merge, please feel free to improve. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  After the AfD-fire 

message: With all the media hype and saturation over Michael Jackson's death, it could serve as potential content for this article. -- œ™ 21:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Section is possibly pushing it a little, but any sourced commentary on the case would probably be a welcome addition to the article. DrFishcake (talk) 18:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion for expansion 

message: What's up with the UK-specific focus? Are other examples relevant, like the public mourning following the death of Elvis Presley, John F. Kennedy, or some of the episodes of mass public hysteria in Japan following the suicides of pop stars? Boneyard90 (talk) 20:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Narrow focus? 

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