Talk:Dersim massacre

message: Are sources even being checked before changes are accepted? in the 6 sources provided for the starting "Alevi-Zaza" part, 4 of them mention it as Kurdish rebellion. Only 2 of them, which are rather dubious sources from Turkey such as "Islamansiklopedi" try to make it out like a "Zaza" rebellion.  Please allot of people have already lost trust in Wikipedia because of these kind of things, so could people check the sources before accepting anything?
2A02:908:C65:C320:11BC:79C5:3ACC:AABC (talk) 05:14, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: What a long Summary! A summary is directly taken from a book. It is too long, I think.Ayasi (talk) 17:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No kidding. I excised it without a second thought. --Adoniscik(t, c) 02:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments 

message: Dersim rebellion → Dersim Rebellion — Firstly, I moved it manually. Obviosuly it was not a good action to move it manually; so I restored the original page. I want to move Dersim_rebellion to Dersim Rebellion with the upper case letter R. A google search inside WP shows that the rebellions start with upper case R in the project. http://www.google.com.tr/#hl=tr&source=hp&q=site%3Aen.wikipedia.org+rebellion&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=b767c8f598543ffb A Google search also shows that "Dersim Rebellion" is the prefered name in English. Please help. Kavas (talk) 17:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 

message: In what kind of rebellion, women and children were killed and people were forced to migrate? There was a page named Dersim massacre and I and other users voted for massacre. Why the page is deleted? 
86.57.55.12 (talk) 06:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dersim MASSACRE 

message: Please do not remove properly cited content before talking about it here first. Also, please do not modify statements which are supported by the citation by adding new information which is not supported (for example: women and children were killed because they were "helping the rebellion" -- the linked article says nothing of this).
NutellaPancake (talk) 14:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cited content 

message: The president apologized for the Dersim Massacre NOT the rebellion operation. They're two completely different things, why was the Dersim Massacre page merged with the Dersim Rebellion?! 
In the Tunceli page, it even states that the Dersim Rebellion is not to be mixed with the Dersim Massacre and they're both differently hyperlinked. Yet when you click both, they come up to this page since someone decided to merged it together, which it shouldn't have been since they're both different topics. The Dersim Massacre happened due to the Rebellion, if you read the Rebellion page, it doesn't say anything about the massacre. It seems like someone is trying to hide the word "massacre", which is the reason they merged it. In Turkey both the massacre and the rebellion are used differently to describe the two events. Did the person who merged the topic think that "massacre" meant genocide? If so, it isn't, so the other Massacre page had nothing to do regarding the debate on genocide. The genocide can be debated, but the massacre doesn't need to be since it has been accepted as an event in Turkey by both the Turks and the Kurds. 
The Rebellion Operation and Dersim Massacre both happened in the same time line and the same place, but they're two completely different topics. Please change it back to the way it was before, where the Dersim Rebellion and the Dersim Massacre had their own pages. Have some respect for the dead and innocent people who have died for absolutely no reason and give them back their page which explains their story. There's still family members to this day digging up their family's bones in their backyard due to the massacre. Where is the freedom of speech and informal education?!
It's like we took 2 steps back with removing the massacre page. I urge you to please make the Dersim Massacre page again.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ruwayda-mustafah/why-did-erdogan-apologise_b_1113732.html 
http://www.todayszaman.com/national_pm-erdogan-apologizes-over-dersim-massacre-on-behalf-of-turkish-state_263658.html
http://www.dailysabah.com/nation/2015/04/14/turkey-digs-up-painful-memories-of-dersim-massacre
70.31.4.23 (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dersim Massacre and Dersim Rebellion are different. Why were they merged into one?  

message: The Dersim Rebellion
The Koçgiri Rebellion
Sheikh Said rebellion
Those three being merged into one page would make sense--BUT WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU MERGE THE DERSIM MASSACRE?!
There is the Dersim Massacre, where the Turks slaughtered innocent people, shot and killed women and children to control an entire region. They made them walk for days and then shot them dead or relocated them. The same massacre where the current president of Turkey has apologized for. This used to have it's own page, where there were articles, pictures, that explained the entire history of it. 
Then there's the Dersim Rebellion which is linked to other Rebellions in the Kurdistan region. The rebellions were also ZAZA Kurdish people. Where a chief was unhappy regarding the taxation in the Dersim region and stood up to the Turkish government and started a rebellion. These are two different topics. Some idiot thought it was a brilliant idea to merge the two topics together. They removed everything about the massacre and made a very large lengthy post regarding the rebellion and one paragraph about the massacre and didn't even have the decency to name it what it was- a massacre where innocent people that had NOTHING to do with the rebellion, Kurds that were NOT even zaza kurds, people that lived MILES AWAY from where the rebellion happen, were slaughtered.
Change it back. This is completely wrong and I am without a doubt extremely upset. It's like someone is trying to hide information on the Dersim Massacre. Have some respect for the innocent lives that were taken. Why is this being covered up? It's ridiculous and a huge blow to the Dersim Kurds that had nothing to do with the rebellion and being lumped together.
It's like lumping the Armenian Genocide with the Kurdish Rebellions, or changing the Armenian Genocide to "The Armenian Incident that killed many people".  I can understand all the Rebellion pages in the Kurdistan region being lumped together, but why the heck would you lump the massacre together? 
  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.15.69.128 (talk) 09:15, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dersim Massacre should have not been merged with the Rebellion. 

message: I agree. The Dersim Massacre and the Dersim Rebellion are different. It even says it on the Kurdish page:
"Referring to the main policy document in this context, the 1934 law on resettlement, a policy targeting the region of Dersim as one of its first test cases, with disastrous consequences for the local population.[18] The Dersim massacre[15] is often confused with the Dersim Rebellion that took place during these events."
Taken from the wikipedia page of "Kurds in Turkey"
How could someone mix the two up? They're both different. The Dersim Massacre page shouldn't have been taken down and merged with the Rebellion pages. The president did not apologize for the rebellion. It was a rebellion, why would he apologize for that? What he apologized for was the massacre. The articles and pictures of the Dersim Massacre were removed when they were merged as well. Ugh, this is disgusting. Change it back. You can't just censor history, this is mad!74.15.71.244 (talk) 06:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unmerge Dersim Massacre and Dersim Rebellion please.  

message: Turkey is doing what Turkey does best, sweeping things under the rug. What the heck is this? The Dersim Rebellion and the Dersim Massacre are two different incidents. Change it back and the person who decided to merge these two should be ashamed of themselves. I agree with the person who said the three rebellions should be merged together, since the topic is about the Kurdistan rebellions within Turkey, it makes since. One page even has one paragraph which can easily fit all three together--but the Dersim Massacre? That's whole different topic. What are you people thinking? Did it hit your egos too much to have that page exist? Seriously, get over it and change it back. 70.51.24.230 (talk) 12:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I see the same kind of thing with every wikipedia page that talks about the past of Turkey. There are always turkish apologists that try to hide their bloody past. vmelkon 20:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dersim Massacre should have it's own page 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the move request was: moved. A history swap also had to be performed to preserve the history of the target page. Jenks24 (talk) 11:03, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Dersim rebellion →  – Per WP:COMMONNAME. A simple Google search result yields 40,900 for "Dersim massacre" while "Dersim rebellion" only yields 10,000. Though a rebellion may have been part of the events, it is now known more for the massacre. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Ridiculous rename. Farcical process in the renaming (a title with pov issues decided on thanks to just three posts made over just three days in a very obscure article). There is not a single piece of content detailing this "massacre" in the entire article!  Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:41, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 10 September 2015 

message: An IP user has been adding the word rebellion in the first sentence of an article dedicated to a massacre. The sentence then becomes: "The Dersim massacre was a supressed rebellion Kurdish people"...
Not only is this sentence not grammatically correct, it is factually incorrect. Per WP:COMMONNAME: this event has been characterized as a massacre above anything else. I suggest the IP stop edit-warring and discuss these changes. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  First sentence of article 

message: I see all those antiturkish editors came here and changed the rebellions name to massacre. It was a surprassed rebellion and massacre was a part of it. So article should be cahnged to Dersim Rebellion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.105.170.64 (talk) 22:01, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This is blatantly false - The Massacre, or Genocide as one aught to call it, started prior to the rebellion and continued even after the rebellion. ANE passion (talk) 16:16, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is biased 

message: There was a rather poorly devised name change for this article a while ago from Dersim rebellion to Dersim massacre. This has caused some problems that were later moved to ANI, where I suggested an RFC to decide the title. None of the disputing editors took it up on it, and the AN/I thread was archived as usual. So I decided to start one myself upon the suggestion from . 
Question: Should we keep the Dersim massacre as the new title of this article or revert it to the previous title, Dersim Rebellion Darwinian Ape talk 08:13, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the previous name change 

message: This is why the two pages should NOT have been merged. The operation against the rebellion only took a couple of months, which was called the Dersim rebellion. 
The Dersim Massacre was the result of the operation, that started a month later after the operation. The massacre lasted almost an entire year. The massacre happened after the arrest. Which is why the massacre is more known than the rebellion. Where they went after the entire province and massacred the people of Dersim. Women and children included that had nothing to do with the rebellion. Most of those people who were targeted were living up in mountains and had no idea that a revolt even happened in another village as they were mostly isolated farmers. It's considered a massacre because it fits the very definition of one. Because of it, it is just that, a massacre of the Dersim people. 
an indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of people.
"the attack was described as a cold-blooded massacre"
synonyms:	slaughter, wholesale/mass slaughter, indiscriminate killing, mass murder, mass execution, annihilation, liquidation, decimation, extermination; More
verb
1.
deliberately and violently kill (a large number of people).
synonyms:	slaughter, butcher, murder, kill, annihilate, exterminate, execute, liquidate, eliminate, decimate, wipe out, mow down, cut down, put to the sword, put to death; literaryslay
"thousands were brutally massacred"
''
The President apologized for the massacre, NOT the rebellion. Not to say that the rebellion did not happen. It did. It existed. It should have it's own page. 
He would not apologize for a rebellion, that makes no sense. What he apologized was for was the destruction of the province and it's people. Due to the massacre the population of that region dropped, which weighed in on Turkey. 
Why do people keep confusing the two? Unmerge the two pages. This is why you'll have two sides clashing with one another. One saying the article is biased, well the other is saying it's censoring the massacre. Two events took place in this timeline, they should not be under the same page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:201F:FF8D:B86A:67CE:A13A:44F8 (talk) 23:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You are talking about a merge  that took place over three and a half years ago - shouldn't you have either got over it by now, or found enough new content to justify the article you claim should exist. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:54, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

text: I think it might be a good idea to create a section for the massacre if the reliable sources discuss it.(no offense, but your story has a citation needed tag floating above. Note that I don't mean you are wrong, just that you need to provide citations.) I don't think it ought to have it's own article though, because it's clear that the massacre is closely related to the rebellion. If what you said about the chronology is correct, it may be in a section detailing the aftermath of the rebellion. (also sorry about my absence after the RFC, the real life stuff kept me from it) overall the article is abysmal and I don't really think I'm the best person to fix it.  Darwinian Ape talk 19:42, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is why the two pages should NOT have been merged 

message: Create two pages, one for rebellion and one for massacre, otherwise the name needs to be changed. Leo Freeman (talk) 20:43, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like a WP:POVFORK, the common name used in sources seems to be Dersim Rebellion. We need WP:RS showing otherwise. Seraphim System (talk) 16:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Massacre not rebellion  

message: Sooo biased , Dersim issue was a massacre NOT rebellion!! Hasti salah (talk) 01:20, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction 

message: :Dersim rebellion → 
There is clear consensus to rename the page to Dersim Massacre. Jerm has closed the last issue as inconclusive, however there have been only arguments for the move.
:The article covers the whole revolt, so I oppose a move. But you can write an article about the specific massacre and then change the redirect. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 12:08, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  The term "rebellion" in itself is Turkish nationalist propaganda (and editor is obviously Turkish). Even Erdogan himself has claimed that the event was thoroughly planned. The events therefore must be classified as "massacre" and not as "rebellion". This is a neutrality issue, not just a redirect.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.246.120.125 (talk) 12:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clear consensus for move to Dersim Massacre 

message: This article reads like Turkish propaganda.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.102.110.228 (talk) 14:33, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Everyone is welcome to edit on Wikipedia. Change what you can.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:45, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I understand your point Paradise Chronicle, however the title of the article states "Dersim Rebellion" and the rebellion and massacre/genocide are two different things so when the topic of genocide/massacre is included it's a travesty to the story by literally being a subheading to this. Instead actually it should be the other way around the main page title should be "Dersim genocide" and the subheaders such as the rebellion should be included. I sort of understand why it looked like a good idea to merge the article because the events before the genocide is relevant and part of the story, but the real agenda was to purposefully manipulate the article. The users who did this have now been banned from Wikipedia if I am not mistaken, yet this article has suffered from bias. TataofTata (talk) 15:54, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ridiculously pro-Turkey phrasing 

message: Contrary to popular belief, it was not a Kurdish revolt,because the people who wanted sharia in the region rebelled against the secular There are Turks among the rebels. Alexander Leone (talk) 11:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: are you sure you are not confusing this with Sheikh Said rebellion? --Isvind (talk) 12:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Islamıst Rebellıon 

message: There are two references to "Ahmet Kahraman" without a title or other information and they can't really be used without additional bibiographic information.  The first use supports the sentence "Seyit Rıza came to the government building of the Erzincan Province for peace talks and was arrested."  While the arrest was widely reported at the time, the specific circumstances need evidence.  Contemporary Turkish newspapers merely said he surrendered to authorities on September 12 ("Seyit Rıza teslim oldu").  The date of execution is also approximately verifiable from contemporary sources but I am not sure about "On the next day, he was transferred to the headquarters of the General Inspectorate at Elazığ".  (I haven't gone back to check contemporary reports; it could be in there.)  Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:29, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Found a report of his arrest saying that he was to be sent to Elâziz (old name of Elazığ) so that part checks out.  Still need the circumstances verified.  Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:19, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unclear reference 

message: It is false and it will be remove from article. There is no independence and non-biased sources to support this claim in article. There was no consensus to add this information into article. Crasyy (talk) 11:02, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The term is used in academia  (including by İsmail Beşikçi) so it should stay. What do you mean by "false"? Read Wikipedia:CENSOR and Wikipedia:Consensus and stop being disruptive. Semsûrî (talk) 11:07, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Term of "genocide" 

message: All or nearly all of the IP edits to Dersim rebellion are being reverted.  Is this article a candidate for semi-protection?  Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:44, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The edits I double checked weren't really constructive.  Do you have a specific edit in mind? As far as I know the article is not considered for semi protection and I am not aware of auch a discussion. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:57, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  I meant, should it be considered for semi-protection?  It's a source of noise in my watchlist from edits and reversions.  Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:07, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no real dispute or edit warring on the article. I guess it wouldn't be granted just like this. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:19, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protect? 

message: He was a graduate of 1940 and began to serve as a pilot in 1942. His book is given as a source for his alleged involvement in the incident, but a print version. Please either put an accessible version or it would be removed. Egeymi (talk) 20:33, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  involvement of Muhsin Batur