Talk:Berlin Philharmonic/Archive 1

message: The lead is supposed to be a dicdef of sorts of the topic and a summary or digest of the article's main information, as well as an introduction, as per WP:LEAD. Thus, it's perfectly normal to have it mention who's the BPO's current director, as the article always did until now.
But it just dawned on me: the reason Dontworry has been recently and repeatedly trying to delete the information about the current conductor from the article's lead (diff of July 17 lead deletion) (diff of July 18 lead deletion), in violation of WP:LEAD, common sense, and readers' interest:
His only "point" for forcing blog format on conductors is that he allegedly wants to highlight who's the current conductor. Not only was this point refuted by the bold header and the first place offered by list format B1... but the very fact that the current conductor is told right from the article's lead was invalidating it, too. So, he's now trying to remove this useful information from the lead, weakening the whole article, just to manufacture a point in favor of blog format. Ouch.
IMO, since he refused discussion and mediation, there's no reason to "assume good faith" any more about him, and we can thus look into that sort of rationals for his otherwise inane actions on the lead. 
-- ChronoOrder as 62.147.112.38 13:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current conductor in lead

message: Hello, I have been asked to serve as mediator regarding the issue on presentation of data in the Philharmonic page. Mediation is a structured way to resolve disagreements by making conversation easier, with any party able to withdraw at any time. I don't have contact information for all possibly interested parties (some of whom don't have accounts). If you accept mediation, please leave a note on my talk page along with your email address or other preferred means of contact. --Improv 14:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: I'm the one who requested (and thus accepted) this mediation on Improv's talk page. After 5 days of refusing to provide arguments on this talk page, and more petty vandalism on the article, Dontworry rejected it on his talk page (diff). -- ChronoOrder as 62.147.112.38 12:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation 

message: This has got to be one of the lamest edit wars ever. I'm protecting the page until both parties come to the talk page and talk about it. User:Angr 12:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please note that Dontworry rejected the mediation I had requested (cf. above), and as you can gather from the above discussion (and lack thereof), he refused to discuss the matter, provide sensible arguments, or refute objections. Furthermore, he can barely read or write English, and is thus largely inapt at engaging in Wikipedia's discussion-based process. -- ChronoOrder as 62.147.112.38 12:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lame edit warring 

message: Okay, the page has been protected long enough now and I think enough people have commented that a tentative consensus has been reached. From reading the above comments, it seems to me that the anon calling himself ChronoOrder, User:Wikitacular, and User:Crimson Shadow all agree that the conductor should be mentioned in the lead and that the list should be from oldest to newest. The main justification for this is that it's the usual style in encylcopedias. User:Dontworry is the only one arguing for newest-to-oldest order, and his reason for this is that it's more interesting to put current information first. Therefore, I'm unprotecting the page now and putting the list in full chronological order from oldest to newest, and asking User:Dontworry to accept the fact that consensus is against him and not to edit-war anymore. User:Angr 09:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Now, could someone please archive the discussion on the matter? I would do it, but I don't know how to. Crimson Shadow 14:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. And see WP:ARCHIVE for instructions. User:Angr 14:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summing up 

message: Couldn't we find something better for the main picture?  You can see the interior of the Philharmonie, but the orchestra is way too distant. Grover cleveland 16:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're welcome to add a better image if you can find one that's freely licensed. —Angr 16:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Main picture

message: The building is burning right now.
Let's keep in mind to update it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.104.18.243 (talk) 15:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Better yet, let's wait till whatever happens has happened and we get a little perspective. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. See WP:RECENT. —Angr 16:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: It's burning

message: I'm still unconvinced of the encyclopedic value of this list (and of the lists of members of sports teams too) but at least now that it has a source it might be maintainable. I've changed the flagicons for England and Scotland to the UK, though, as everyone else's flag is (presumably) for the sovereign country of their citizenship, not the subnational entity they grew up in. —Angr 09:24, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of members 

message: I received an email request to add Ferenc Fricsay to the list of the conductors before Karajan. The person sent me this as a source: Fricsay, el dominio del ritmo, Stefano Russomanno, ABC.es. I can read Spanish and it does say that Fricsay was a conductor, but it doesn't clearly say whether his status in the orchestra was the same as Karajan's.
Since i am not an expert on the history of this orchestra, i'd be happy if someone with better knowledge would be able to clear this up.
Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Fricsay was the principal conductor of the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, not the Berlin Philharmonic. He may have conducted some concerts of the BP, but only principal conductors are listed in the article. +Angr 17:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ferenc Fricsay 

message: Someone who'd never heard of the Berlin Philharmonic deleted the phrase "widely regarded as one of the best orchestras in the world" as PEACOCK. I restored it. I hope we don't have to struggle with the teeners over this obvious cliché of adult culture. Are there any other grown-ups watching this page? --Wetman (talk) 01:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I am a grown-up and I have great respect for the Berlin Philharmonic, but just saying "Ooh, it's one of the greatest orchestras in the world!!!1!" is hardly grown up. Did you read WP:PEACOCK? It tells us we shouldn't simply say "widely regarded as one of the best orchestras in the world", we should show why it is. List the awards it's won, the positive reviews it's received, and source it all, and the reader will know how highly regarded the orchestra is without the uninformative "widely regarded as" sentence. —Angr 08:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

text: P.S. Considering I live in Berlin and have attended their concerts myself, your assumption that I had never heard of the Berlin Philharmonic comes very close to being a personal attack. —Angr 08:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the comment about being the 3rd best orchestra, and any other judgement of value, even if sourced, shoud be removed because they sound un-encyclopedic. --Karljoos (talk) 00:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it's okay, but it probably shouldn't be the second sentence of the lead. I'd move it down to the "Awards and recognition" section. —Angr 12:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Peacockery"

message: In my opinion, the last sentence of this section is not correct. The movie Taking Sides is about the denazification investigation concerning Wilhelm Furtwängler (who admittedly conducted the orchestra during the Nazi period), but the movie is not about the "relationship between the BPO and the Nazi regime". --Francesco Malipiero (talk) 15:43, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular culture 

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thread_title: File:Berlin Philharmonic rehearsing.jpg Nominated for Deletion