Talk:Nihilism/Archive 1

message: :Looks like he's saying that nihilism is a stepping stone, like a phase, to something higher.  I think he was trying to avoid nihilism.  It's what we must experience before we will realize that the old value system didn't suffice, and therefore it is a ground out of which a new "revaluated" system of values can grow.  I don't think he meant for nihilism to be the end, just a means or a phase.  Perhaps even something one could use as a tool or fall back to when one's present system needed an outside revaluation.  But I don't think he saw it as an end in any way. --DanielCD 01:29, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, nihilism as a stepping stone, though Nietzsche may have at one time believed it could be avoided - the paragraph quoted by Nagelfar almost reads like a confession of sorts.  But yeah, he's definately saying here that it is a necessary step to achieve the radical change in morality he prescribes.  -Seth Mahoney 06:06, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
Yay!  Rewrote the article, though its more or less just a skeleton now.  Will hopefully be fleshing it out over the next few days, and am hoping you all will contribute! Seth Mahoney 07:43, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Return to Nietzsche and nihilism

message: :Looks like he's saying that nihilism is a stepping stone, like a phase, to something higher.  I think he was trying to avoid nihilism.  It's what we must experience before we will realize that the old value system didn't suffice, and therefore it is a ground out of which a new "revaluated" system of values can grow.  I don't think he meant for nihilism to be the end, just a means or a phase.  Perhaps even something one could use as a tool or fall back to when one's present system needed an outside revaluation.  But I don't think he saw it as an end in any way. --DanielCD 01:29, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, nihilism as a stepping stone, though Nietzsche may have at one time believed it could be avoided - the paragraph quoted by Nagelfar almost reads like a confession of sorts.  But yeah, he's definately saying here that it is a necessary step to achieve the radical change in morality he prescribes.  -Seth Mahoney 06:06, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
Yay!  Rewrote the article, though its more or less just a skeleton now.  Will hopefully be fleshing it out over the next few days, and am hoping you all will contribute! Seth Mahoney 07:43, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Return to Nietzsche and nihilism

message: :::The reference via negation is technically a predominantly introverted intuitive one (in the Jungian sense of the term.  By calling things not this, and consequently trying to posit an alternative explanation/etc... you're avoiding the issue of nihilism (in the epistemological sense -- maybe, I'm really not sure what I'm talking about -- the reference to negation is avoiding things by "consistently" referencing to a value-trait, the Boolean "NOT" (as somewhat differentiated from a temporary model/concept-system, the value-trait usually being a defined (or approximating near definition) lexical symbol).  Assuming he's being psychologically typed right by most people, Nietzsche did technically have an introverted intuitive component (though was dominantly an introverted thinker), so it may very well be (and probably was to a significant extent) what he was talking about when refering to nihilistic problems needed to overcome.
:::A temporary concept/model/value system is a potential counter to "the nihilistic dilemma".  From what I gather, this is what N. was positing. 24.22.227.53 03:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re: -everything 

message: ::  I'm new to the whole wiki thing, but i nevertheless do *not* appreciate your [Seth's] characterization of my edit as "spamming".  Your "commonly accepted view" that Nietzche's Master Morality is embodied in the ancient greeks is certainly a result of you (and your peers) seeing the numerous ancient greek references throughout his works (apollonian, et al), *however* when Nietzsche traces the degeneration of Morality (from master -> slave), it goes:  aryan -> jew -> christan.  Also, if it wasn't an obvious hint, the preacher of the Uebermensch (and the corresponding master morality) in "Also Sprach.." is none other than *TADA!!* Zurathustra/Zoroaster-- the Zoroastrian prophet.  Yes, *ZOROASTRIANISM*-- bka, the old Aryan/Persian faith.
::Summary:  Nietzsch makes a rather cohesive timeline of "morality".. [master/original morality] ARYANS -> [slave morality, eg: 'du darfst nicht'/'thou shalt not'] JEWS -> [slave morality^x - 'blessed are the ugly/stupid/pathetic/weak..] CHRISTIANITY -> [nihilism] -> [Uebermensch - "I will!"].  I assume he used extensive greek allusions due to the fact that most/all "educated" folk (who, btw, he ridicules as *ahem* only being able to parrot "commonly accepted views") were/are very familiar with these tales and the lessons therein.  
::Oh, Nietzsche's works aren't to be picked through for 'study' by children and/or people pushing an agenda.  I won't spend my time paging through text files trying to find excerpts to argue against your silly assertions.  That sort of thing is the reason why "educated" people to this day refer to Nietzsche as a Nihilist.  Anyone with a proper understanding of Nietzsche's world would understand that the "nihilist" is the one who's eyes have been opened and despair the loss of commonly accepted morality.  The Uebermensch, however, sees that as a liberation and is described as anything but a Nihilist (in the russian/philos. sense).  Calling Nietzsche a 'nihilist' is a weak-attempt to discredit the ideal of overcoming Man-- it's the slave (the sniveling 'flies' that buzz and stung at Zura.) trying [apparently successfully] to undermine the ideals and initiatives of the Master.    
::Also, if you didn't get it, Nietzsche's "new" morality is a continuation of the ancient morality of the Aryans.  I know it's hard for Western minds to accept, but there was something before the 1st Plundering of Palestine and the decadence of the Greeks.  It's incorrect to refer to it as something new or hypothetical.
::--> I appologize for being 'un academic' and, at times, harsh, but as someone who has read Nietzsche independantly and holisticly, I'm a bit taken aback by all of the modern misinformatin concerning his teachings.  To understand Nietzsche, one has to a have a fairly independant understanding of the Bible, Church, History, etc which most modern types don't.  His writings should be explored and understood in context w/ no presuppostion of 'political correctness'.  One great example is how people refuse to discuss/acknowledge who N. refers to as 'Tarantulas' in 'Also Sprach..' (hint:  gives fuel to the "nietzsche is a big, bad, meany anti-semite" side of the debate).  
::If 'modern sensitivities' are what's preventing the academic community (which i'm assuming you're a part of) from acknowledging or even mentioning Aryans and their role in [Nietzsche's view of] history, that's your personal bias.  If it makes you feel better, 'Aryan' is (quite obviously) an alternate transliteration of 'Iranian'-- we'll use that instead.  See, now everyone can be happy!
::I'll leave your wiki page alone now-- that just had to be said.
::-AAG  (edit 19.2.2005)
::: Nietzsche is dead.  He's irrelevant. 24.22.227.53 16:01, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  re:  Aryans (not Greeks) represent Nietzsche's Master Morality 

message: As it is standard with Wikipedia pages, there is no reason the table of contents should be to the right of the article, it should come before the body of the article, right after the introduction. It simply looks ugly like this (before the change I am making right now). Thank you!
:Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end.
:Sounds good to me, thanks for noticing and making that change!  -Seth Mahoney 01:10, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, you generally don't have to explain when you make a noncontroversial change, unless you really want to, or it might not really be all that noncontroversial. Deco 07:08, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-controversial page change 

message: In this context, there's no framework. 24.22.227.53 08:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed minor definition of Nihilism 

message: See the section "# 3.3 Nihilism in Music".  Why is it that nihilism in music is more noticable? Yes, information does tend to travel quickly these days, however, that does not explain why people are attaching to any of these nihilistic ideals through music. If we can attach Pink Floyd to the bare begginnings of this pattern of nihilism in music, we can say it starts near the 1970s and obviously continues from there. But, why? What was going on then besides the Cold War? Perhaps, such shift in ideals can be attributed to the quote on the page for the 1970s: "The nuclear family rose to prominence in the third world and the role of women in nuclear families took radical shift from those of earlier generation" -- implying that the work force consisting of nuclear families had their children without the same motherly influence as before. Is this of any relevance? Insert psychology article link here. -- 66.68.138.69 22:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why recently? 

message: Moved this from the article page:
:Some persons have associated anarchism with nihilism, reasoning that if political science is the study of improving the design of government, then anarchy would be anti-political theoretically, thus nihilistic. It has been claimed that during the Red Scare, the U.S. government spread propaganda equating anarchism with nihilism.
What persons have associated anarchism with nihilism using such reasoning?  Who claimed that about the U.S. Government?
-Seth Mahoney 22:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section moved here 

message: :Punk rock has often been regarded as taking a nihilistic and anarchistic view of the world around it. Another approach to nihilism has been taken by black metal and death metal, whose intentionally bizarre composition  and morbid lyrics depict life's meaninglessness and a lack of absolute morals. Gothic Rock,  Deathrock and No wave are closely related genres that have all been known to raise Nihilistic issues.
:However, the subcultures that have sprung up around these genres contain some unique social norms and mores. An example would be so-called Pit Etiquette. These are the rules of common courtesy that dictate behavior in mosh pits at concerts. The existence of these mores suggests that although lyrically and artistically a philosophy of nihilism may permeate these genres, the draw to their normally younger fan base may be based more on an illusion of rebellion than any real nihilistic beliefs.
:Some of Pink Floyd's music, especially that on the album The Wall, bears many nihilistic lyrics. The song "Comfortably Numb" bears many nihilistic phrases in it, especially in the chorus.
:Gangsta rap arose from Too Short, Schoolly D, and Ice T telling tales of their experiences on the street and was distilled in the words of N.W.A. who elevated the sub-genre to the point of nihilism. For example, in "Straight Outta Compton" Eazy-E states, "I don't give a fuck, that's the problem."  As their success eclipsed other rappers, the repuation of all gangsta rap was marked by its nihlist tone.
:The music of Nine Inch Nails has often been described as nihilistic, particularly the album The Downward Spiral, featuring lyrics such as "God is dead, and no-one cares."
I think this could be a valuable section, but not as it is now, for one reason: It isn't sourced at all.  Who has often described Nine Inch Nails' or Pink Floyd's or N.W.A.'s music as nihilistic?  Who says punk takes a nihilistic attitude?  Your friends?  Not good enough.  Someone who figures in music theory?  A prominent church leader?  The Canadian Prime Minister?  Much better.  -Seth Mahoney 19:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would start with the death metal band named NIHILIST. www.anus.com 05:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Names aren't good enough.  For all I or most other readers of this page know, NIHILIST is some Europop band that performs songs about wanting their boyfriends to be more like Vladimir Putin (except that I happen to know the name of that particular band).  There has to be some sort of recognized authority to work with here, or this section becomes just so much angsty teenage trash.  -Seth Mahoney 05:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, but we've already established you're a power abusive individual. The term "nihilism" was widely used to cover punk hardcore (not punk rock), but I can also tell you that death metal bands idealized nihilism enough to take on the name and use it in song titles. Beyond that, it's up to you. I am against this section entirely, as the people here including you do not understand nihilism and are petty dilettantes. www.anus.com 00:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That I abuse power or not (I'm wondering where you get the idea that I do abuse power, considering that I have none - or at least, have the same as everyone else - here) is completely irrelevant to whether or not this or that band belongs in this section.  Regardless, I totally agree that there are bands and movements in music that have embraced aspects of nihilism.  That's why the section was there, and why I'd eventually like to see it restored.  The problem is in determining which bands should be included and which bands shouldn't.  And what I'm saying is not only that your thinking a band should be included doesn't really count for much, but also that my thinking a band should be included doesn't count for much.  There should be reference to some third party here which has some authority on the subject.  Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder if you have taken lessons in misreading people.  -Seth Mahoney 19:52, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nihilism in music section 

message: This article still doesn't make clear that Nietzsche was an anti-nihilist (I suggest the antonym of Nihilist to be existentialist; as in: anti-existence/life versus pro-existence) and that he reacted to Schopenhauer's nihilism.  The key, seminal and unsurpassed philosopher of Nihilism is Schopenhauer, who is only given a cursory gloss. It's as if the main writer is biased against Nihilism instead of giving an objective account of it. It's obvious from his astute quoting in this forum that he is a Nietzschean, which should exclude him from being able to give a proper objective account of Nihilism. This is akin to an atheist writing the article on Christianity. Schopenhauer (and perhaps a few minor lights such as Leopardi) should be the focus here, with Nietzsche as a reactionary foil who was influenced by Schopenhauer (there is a quote about him, while still a student, finding Schopenhauer's main work in a used bookstore somewhere). If this is true, perhaps the writer should work on the Nietzsche & Existentialism articles and leave this one to those who are pro-Nihilism (or at least neutral).
Also, while Shakespeare and "Macbeth" are mentioned as seminal, "Hamlet" (which addresses the issue in a revelatory way) is completely neglected.
- Nemo Senki
:It is preferred that you sign your talk page contributions by adding -~~~~ at the end, rather than doing so manually.  By all means, add information on Schopenhauer and Hamlet if you're interested.  Your contributions are welcome.  -Seth Mahoney 19:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some Observations