Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts/archive 6

message: This template is often used in MA pages (along with  on other pages).  Whilst we should warn readers about the characters in the text, it is a bit of a pain because it doesn't look good with the infobox. (see Tai chi chuan).  Any thoughts?  Should we add this to the infobox somehow (optional display obviously). -- Medains 07:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Can it be made to go to the left above the navi box? --Nate1481(t/c) 07:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{tl|Contains Chinese text}} 

message: All right, let's start listing all of the infoboxes we want to have and what they will be used for. The pre-existing templates should still be subject to some formatting modifications per the above discussion.
#, to be used for "types" of martial arts - karate, aikido, taekwondo, tai chi chaun, etc...
#, the current  can be moved here, to be used for koryu schools.
#, for schools/styles/organizations of all types of martial arts, other than koryu.
Does this work for everyone? Once we have an agreement, I believe we should create subsections below for discussion of each template separately. Bradford44 20:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: List of proposed infoboxes

message: I am calling your attention to a tag placed on Breaking (martial arts) for sourcing needs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM)  22:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing assistance needed for [[Breaking (martial arts)]] 

message: Hi. I'm trying to reduce the number of inactive wikiprojects and just wonder if your project might be interested to do something about wikiProject Asian martial arts. This particular project was started in December 2005 to deal primarily with the Chinese martial arts articles. Then it expanded the scope slightly but went inactive by the end of 2006. I think your wikiproject already covers what they were trying to do and could easily merge it into yours without any difficulties. Another option would be to recreate WikiProject Asian martial arts as a descendant wikiproject (similar to WikiProject Mixed martial arts) but this would require a lot of works as that project wasn't well-organized. Anyway, feel free to make comments and suggestions. Thanks for reading, --Melanochromis 06:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly would be involved in merging that project with this one?  How would a merger differ from merely declaring WikiProject Asian martial arts inactive, or deleting it?  After all, I would guess 90 percent or more of the WP:WPMA's articles relate specifically to Asian martial arts already - this project is already taking care of those articles, so I don't think anyone here would notice if the WikiProject Asian martial arts simply disappeared. So I'm basically asking, what are the pros and cons of merging vs. deletion? Bradford44 14:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for asking. The most important part of the merge is the participants (there are 6 of them). I'll put them in WP:WPMA list and then notify them that their membership have been transferred to a different project, and if they don't wish to join WP:WPMA they can remove their names from the list anytime. The rest of the project page and its talk page doesn't seem so useful but, for record keeping, it'll be turned in an archive that is a subpage of WP:WPMA page and it will be accessible from Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial Arts/Navbox. Just an attempt to organize old pages and prevent future editors to revive it without being aware that there already is WP:WPMA. Do you think this is the best way to do? If there's no objection I'll go ahead and finish it. --Melanochromis 19:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds ok to me.  Anyone else? Bradford44 19:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Fine -- Medains 09:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Merger and archival process completed! The new archived subpage can be seenhere. Most participants of the project are already members of WP:WPMA. Only two were transferred to WP:WPMA and have been notified. Cheers, --Melanochromis 20:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal - [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Asian martial arts|WikiProject Asian martial arts]] 

message: Prompted by the Do Pi Kung Fu merger note above, it occurred to me that there are many arts for which we will repeated have the same problems.  Namely those of notability and good references.
Perhaps we should create broader articles such as Southern Kung Fu Styles - which would be summary/list articles with links to the main articles where they were better than stubs, and have redirects from the articles that are just stubs.  This would give us an opportunity to write some good "overview" articles, whilst providing a place to capture the small amount of information available about such arts without fighting notability/deletion/merger battles all the time (and I think we'd have less of a fight about merging stub articles into the overview/summary articles).
Thoughts? -- Medains 11:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martial Arts with few practioners and poor sources 

message: Please look at Talk:Karate#Article_Cleanup jmcw 14:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  karate article cleanup discussion 

message: As part of the Notability wikiproject, I am trying to sort out whether Neko-ryu is notable enough to have its own article. I would appreciate an expert opinion. If you can spare some time, please add your comments to the article's talk page. Thanks!  --B. Wolterding 18:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neko-ryu

message: This has been created, usefull page to watch I think Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Martial arts --Nate1481( t/c) 08:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion sorting 

message: As part of the Notability wikiproject, I am trying to sort out whether Progressive Fighting System is notable enough for an own article. I would appreciate an expert opinion. For details, see the article's talk page. If you can spare some time, please add your comments there. Thanks! --B. Wolterding 17:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert review: Progressive Fighting System 

message: It seems that I forgot to announce the expert review for Neko-ryu here. Could you have a look? Discussion is on the article's talk page. Thanks! --B. Wolterding 17:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert review: Neko-ryu 

message: When attempting to change the capitalization of some of the project's assessment categories, a point was brought up - the title of this WikiProject does not use proper capitalization.  As per Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide/WikiProject#Initial setup:
The naming convention for WikiProjects is to place them in the Wikipedia: namespace at "WikiProject Name of project" (note that the "WikiProject" prefix is considered to be a virtual namespace; thus, the first word after it is capitalized, but any others follow standard sentence case rules); for example, if you were creating a WikiProject about tulips, you would create the page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Tulips.
According to the standard sentence case rules, martial arts should be titled as "Martial arts" - as it is for Portal:Martial arts and Martial arts.  Therefore, I would like to rename this project (and associated project categories) from Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial Arts to Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial arts.  --Scott Alter 02:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Assuming you want to rename all the categories to match, it's kind of a lot of work, but probably a good idea.  If someone puts up an umbrella nomination like this one, I'll support it. -- Prove It (talk) 04:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Support Bradford44 13:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Support--Nate1481( t/c) 13:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It's done.  I've also updated the templates and poked the bot ... it seems happy.  Let me know if you find any problems. -- Prove It (talk) 05:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll so an AWB run changing Martial Art to Martial art which should catch atlot --Nate1481( t/c) 10:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Change in capitalization of project name 

message: Greetings! I've just put up a list with guidelines and other info regarding the handling of the 
List of koryū schools of martial arts and I'm posting a duplicate here.
----
* Alphabetical order please.
* Always double-check that the ryu's article-link is correct. Red links are allowed up to a point, but double-check that there isnt an existing article for it or we might start creating duplicate articles.
* Do not put the name of the art after the schools name. For instance, dont put up Kashima Shinto-ryu Kenjutsu but simply Kashima Shinto-ryu under the aproperiate section of the article. The exception is when posting a ryu in the Various weaponry.
* Note 1: Try to place the ryu in the correct specalized category though it might not always be easy. For instance, that Shinto Muso-ryu is a dedicated staff-art is correct eventhough there are other weapons taught within the system. There might be some ryu that does not see itself as specalized in one specfic art. As an example: Yagyu Shingan-ryu main focus is desribed as unarmoured/armoured-grappling, but they also have kenjutsu, bojutsu (etc), so there is room for error when placing it in a category. (though in Yagyu Shingan-ryus case I do know they put emphasize on jujutsu but it was just an example). Extra efforts should be made to find out how the ryu itself describes itself so we can put it in a proper category.
* Note 2: Very large systems, such as Katori Shinto-ryu and Tatsumi-ryu, are called "Comprehensive systems" for lack of better terms. However, though KSR and Tatsumi are obviously qualified for comprehensive status, I'm honestly not sure what parameters to use when judging the other arts unless they have at least as much as KSR and Tatsumi-ryu. Please keep this in mind when adding a ryu to the Comprehensive Systems-list.
* Note 3: Ninjutsu/Ninpo systems. There is still debate wether or not (some) of these old systems are Koryu in the strictest sense of the word. I'm gonna experiment with a special Ninpo/Ninjutsu section of this article created specifically for ryu that focuses on the above-mentioned arts. Please note this does not include ryu that include Ninpo/ninjutsu as ONE of its arts.
* Note 4: Muso Shinden-ryu ís a school of Iaido created in the 20th century. However, MSR is an amalgation of several koryu schools put together into one system by a fully qualified koryu-practitioner, namely Nakayama Hakudo. More specifically: kata-series from various ryu were taken and incorporated into what would become MSR. For this reason, Muso Shinden-ryu is on the list although going by koryu year-standards it was founded post 1876 and thus a gendai (modern) martial art.
Thats about all I think.
Fred26 10:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of Koryu schools of martial arts 

message: This is taught by Oshiro Sensei and I believe it is taught by Iha Sensei.  It is NOT listed on the comparison of kobudo styles but I want to verify that is should be listed before I add it.  http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo.html Tkjazzer 16:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Comparison_of_kobudo_styles Tkjazzer 16:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Yamanni_ryu]] and an article on [[Oshiro]] Sensei 

message: Bradford44 did not approve of my first attempt to patch up the usage of kempo. I have now added  to the kenpo page. Any comments? jmcw 16:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My only concern is requiring that kempo(disambiguation) meet the requirements of WP:DAB and MOS:DAB.  Right now, it does not.  Further, at the time I deleted the old DAB page, it did not appear to ever be able to meet those requirements. All of the uses (and spellings) of the word  are explained at Kenpō.  There are no other articles about any subjects written, called, or spelled "kempo", "kempō", "kenpo", or "kenpō" to disambiguate it from. I'm not trying to be contrary for contrariness' sake, but the DAB guidelines explain the very limited purpose that DAB pages are for.  Right, now kempo(disambiguation) is essentially a disconnected "see also" section of kenpō.  This is improper, according to the guidelines. I would like to see it fixed, but welcome further input and consensus on this subject. Bradford44 16:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Amending my previous comment - "There are no other articles about any subjects written, called, or spelled "kempo", "kempō", "kenpo", or "kenpō" to disambiguate it from" except for the Constitution of Japan, which is sometimes referred to in Japanese, for short, as the "kenpō". This sole other use of "kenpō" is properly indicated through the use of the  template at the top of the article. Bradford44 17:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

text: The muddle over kenpo seems that it has different meanings to different groups. The citation used in the karate article is from an Okinawan author. The person who objected to the word kempo stated that kempo in America means a specific style. It seems that the way around this ambiguity is, well, a disambiguation page. It seems a lot of work to add the word kempo/kenpo to title pages in order to satisfy a guide line. I respect the existing wikki guide lines. How should one resolve the multiple meanings? jmcw 17:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Amending my previous comment<g> and attempting to answer my own question: I suppose the correct way to solve this problem would be to re-write the kenpo article to be more general. The references on the current disambiguation page could be integrated more clearly into the kenpo article. I guess I'm too lazy to take it on right now. jmcw 18:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  kenpo disambiguation 

message: The relevant article of Vambudo is up for deletion. VanTucky (talk) 22:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  AFD 

message: Apparently in the List of martial arts and in the categories of Martial art by region they are two separate entries.  Frankly I don't have feeling one way or the other but if they are separate I think they should be distinguished at the Category level (ie. one or the other).Peter Rehse 08:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My view would be that it deserves it's own list  but @ a sub level of Japan, or at the very least a cross reference in the cat header. What is done on the Japanese wiki? --Nate1481( t/c) 09:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: It deserves to be separated from Japanese MA, I think categories can be separate, also I think it should be separate on the list. Tkjazzer 13:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: But since karate, so to say, started because of hostile invasion / control of the country, I think they deserve to be separated.  The country of okinawa where taken over and not allowed to use weapons, correct? Tkjazzer 19:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Except that "Te" (which really needs its own article, by the way), the indiginous art of the people from the Island of Okinawa and upon which karate is based, predates the Kingdom of Ryukyu.  Further, Karate began prior to annexation by the Japanese in the late 1800s, but it's not like karate was created in a single instant or even by a single person, so who is to say that what we know today as "karate" truly solidified before or after Okiniwa was part of Japan.  In many ways, karate is part Ryukyuan, and part Japanese.  The only real constant is the geographical location - having originated on this particular island. Bradford44 00:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Japanese martial arts]] vis [[Okinawan martial arts]] 

message: A sentence on Bruce Lee's article is being discussed: "Lee caused a 235lb opponent to fly 15 feet away with a one inch punch."  This is supposedly taken almost verbatim from the source, a book by John Little, who has written numerous books on Bruce Lee.  Personally, and please point out if I am being biased: I consider this to be an "exceptional" claim as defined under Wikipedia:Reliable sources, as it implies something that seems surprising and is not widely known.  This claim suggests that after punching someone at only one inch away, Bruce Lee caused the opponent to "fly" across for 15 feet or about 4.5 meters before stopping, essentially flying across an entire room.  The claim does not even suggest that the opponent merely stumbled.  This claim has not been verified by the various video footages of Bruce Lee that exist.  In the publicly available videos, Bruce Lee punches people but they only take a couple steps back and fall into a chair.(clip)  I am not aware of any video footage where any human being can do this.
Another editor feels that the source, Little's book, is an outstanding source, that the claim is non-controversial and does not qualify as an "exceptional" claim, and finally that there is no need to state in the same sentence that the claim is "according to John Little".  For the sake of consensus, could some editors please provide some remark on this issue, either here or at Talk:Bruce Lee?  Thank you. Shawnc 04:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd suggest put it a sourced quote & note the absence's of other supporting sources --Nate1481( t/c) 13:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How should this statement be presented? 

message: Martial arts is the project title/flagship article, it needs sourcing so we can get it to Good Article status mainly in the history sections. can you help? --Nate1481( t/c) 15:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That would be good, are there any articles on African MA's? --Nate1481( t/c) 11:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  *'''[[Martial arts]]'''  to a [[WP:GA|Good Article]] 

message: I've added it to the cleanup list but it was already flagged.  At one point I thought it was pretty good but its degenerated mostly because of lists of names of people involved in decendant schools and other trivial information.  Referencing needs fixing up also.  I mention it here because the changes I made were reverted.Peter Rehse 03:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Erch needs heavy cleaning doing some. --Nate1481( t/c) 12:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Danzan Ryu]]

message: As part of the Notability wikiproject, I am trying to sort out whether Philippe Voarino is notable enough for an own article. I would appreciate an expert opinion. For details, see the article's talk page. If you can spare some time, please add your comments there. Thanks! --B. Wolterding 13:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Now the subject of an AfD debate --Nate1481( t/c) 13:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert review: [[Philippe Voarino]] 

message: The article Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu has recently been promoted to good article due to it's quality.  I encourage experts to review the article based on the good article criteria and consider marking the article at GA quality for the project. -Weston.pace 17:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My mistake, they're one and the same.  Congratulations then! -Weston.pace 17:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert Review: [[Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu]] 

message: This article had an expert review tag directed to the biographies.  I personally think the article is a bit of a walled garden but just added a notability tag and pointed the expert review tag to this project.  As a side note her teacher's article was just deleted but that was more to do with copyright violations than questions of notability that were also raised.Peter Rehse 07:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert Review: [[Donna Judge]] 

message: I've just resubmitted Aikido for a second stab at Featured article status.Peter Rehse 08:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Article: [[Aikido]]

message: Over the last day or so, I've made some major changes and additions to the article (including pictures, new sections, and an info box). As soon as I get permission from the copyright holders, I will be adding a photo of a person striking the mantis hook posture compared next to an old-school drawing of a mantis' arm. In addition, (once permitted) I will be adding a picture of a Shandong stone monument to the style's creator.
I am not a practitioner of the art, but I would really like to see the page expanded. Right now the page has very little or no information on the practical application or actual training regime. Most of it is just history stuff, names of various sub-styles, and associated media.--Ghostexorcist 19:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Still it was a good job - I promoted it to B-class and because of the expert tag that was inserted added the article to the Expert Review list.  When you think it is ready I encourage you submit it to Peer review and then try for GA status.Peter Rehse 23:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your kind remarks, but I can not personally take it to GA since I don't practice the style. I'm sure there are some Mantis practitioners floating around wikipedia somewhere. I can, however, put up a request on various martial arts related talk boards for people to contribute to the article (on the bases that they provide verifiable sources). --Ghostexorcist 00:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  Of course you can.  If you have an interest you can edit.  Now wanting  it to be improved by expert advice is another question.Peter Rehse 08:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Northern Praying Mantis (martial art)]] 

message: As part of the Notability wikiproject, I am trying to sort out whether Jean Jacques Machado is notable enough for an own article. I would appreciate an expert opinion. For details, see the article's talk page. If you can spare some time, please add your comments there. Thanks! --B. Wolterding 14:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expert review: Jean Jacques Machado 

message: There are many articles that define dō. The disambiguity page Do is ugly. I think the article on budō explains it well. What about removing a lot of redundancy by redirecting dō to budō? jmcw 09:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Redirect from dō to budō