Talk:Scone

message: Just wondering... what's with the Dutch Loanwords here? I'm Dutch and can't think what word this would be based on, and the article doesn't seem to give any clues. Anyone? :-) 82.139.89.208 18:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Dutch word?

message: This is sort of a wild hunch... but were scones invented to celebrate a victory over the ottoman empire?  Can anybody confirm/debunk this?
----Croissant were created in Vienna, duaing the siege by the ottoman empire.
No, it is a traditional Scottish bread that has nothing to do with the Middle East.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.112.140.132 (talk) 16:02, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Ottoman?

message: From the article: In the UK, the pronunciation is split along geographical lines, with the south rhyming with "own" and northeners rhyming with "on".
:Utter rot. I would guess this was written by someone who hasn't been south of Watford. The distinction is more an indicator of class than what part of the country you come from Mintguy (T)
::No no, it's all much simpler than that. It's a 'scoan' when eaten with butter and a 'scon' when eaten with margerine ;-) Adambisset 12:35, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: In Australia (or at least in my part of it), it's "skon". If you say "sk'own", then you are referring to the town in NSW. - 52 Pickup (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronounciation

message: These are not at all what I'm used to calling scones. In the US, or at least in the greater Philadelphia area, a scone is a dark, irregularly shaped cake-like breakfast food. I'll have to take a picture the next time I have one, but does anyone know what the universal term for these kinds of scones are called?
:Is it anything like this:  which is an example of an Americqn-style scone? I don't consider that dark, though. Rmhermen 20:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Completely different in USA 

message: The term "scone-faced" means someone who is dour (sullen or grim) looking.
I always thought it was stone-faced, and it seems to make much more sense in context. 82.3.196.17 16:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Scone-Faced"

message: OK, the article defines a scone as "a bread thicker than a bannock". I've no idea what a bannock is, but when I went to its article, I was told that a bannock is "a bread thinner than a scone".... The Holy ettlz 09:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: GMTA, or there's a harmonic convergence coming on. I just discovered the same thing and posted a request for clarification at Talk:Bannock (food). Lou Sander 22:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm... now it says a scone is thicker than a bannock in scone, and that they're the same thickness in bannock. I'd fix it, but I've eaten or seen neither. Udi Raz 18:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circular reference 

message: I've noticed that in Asda supermarket in the UK, which was taken over by Walmart recently, they have started to sell things they call 'scones' which are not like what we know in britain as scones, but are just like the American scones described here. They also give me terrible indegestion. (I have to say the selection and choice of bread in Asda is poor). 80.2.222.188 22:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Walmart in the UK 

message: I've lived in the USA all of my life and I've never considered a scone anything but British.  In fact I never ate a scone until, in my 20's, I lived in Canada for a few years.  Of course these days you can get anything anywhere.  And all quick breads are similar.  However when I think of American quick breads I think of biscuits (in the American sense), muffins, corn bread and perhaps griddle cakes and johnny cakes.  But I don't think of scones as an American food.20:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: They have them at Whole Foods. My local grocery store has also started baking them from time to time, and it is a pretty low-end store. I think the scone has arrived. Lou Sander (talk) 03:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Are any Scones American? 

message: Here in New Zealand, you could have scones served in tearooms before the 1990s.  As tearooms are being steamrolled by cafes they have disappeared from dining out scenes.  These days you have to buy them in supermarkets or bakeries, or make your own at home.  Is it the case as well in other countries? --JNZ (talk) 20:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Scones are popular in Australia, just yesterday I was at a function where afternoon tea was provided in the form of scones :) 152.91.9.219 (talk) 06:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scones Popularity? 

message: The article's lead photo, "Runny hunny.jpg," is from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and was taken to illustrate the honey, not the baked item. Since scones are not common in the U.S., and since such scones as there are in that country tend to be triangular in shape, I think it's safe to say that the baked goods in the photo are "biscuits," not "scones." While it is recognized that the two items are similar, IMHO a different photo, more legitimately an image of "scones," should be used at the top of the article. Lou Sander (talk) 12:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not such a good photo 

message: The article currently claims "In Australia, popular varieties include the vegemite scone."  I question the accuracy of that claim, particularly since there's no reference given.  I am an Australian and I've never heard of anyone ever serving scones with vegemite.  They're typically served with Jam and whipped cream. --Lachlan Hunt (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This Yank thinks the Vegemite scone is probably a prank by somebody who knows about the song by Men at Work. Lou Sander (talk) 01:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vegemite Scones in Australia? 

message: the article starts saying scones are the same as American biscuits - to the point that receipes can be interchangeable (paraphrased) - I would urge that we remove this as it is a misconception and not correct. American biscuits are more of a soda based product, saltier in taste (than even a savoury scone), lighter in texture, and not as 'cakey' as a scone. It is much closer to the bannock. Although some  biscuits may have been mislabled by the ignorant as scones in the States - those who taste a morning biscuit product, and a scone in, say, Starbucks (a poor example) can surely taste and see the difference Kunchan (talk) 12:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not an expert on biscuits or scones, but as far as my knowledge goes, I agree with Kunchan. Lou Sander (talk) 12:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

text: No one doubts that what Americans call biscuits diifer from what American call scones. The claim is that British recipes for scones are not the same as the sweet cakey American scones. Are you certain you looked at British scone recipes? Rmhermen (talk) 00:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

text: I am thinking about removing the comparison between British scones and American biscuits, too. I propose to remove the entire "Description" section, which is unsourced and confusing, if not misleading. Another justification is the photo of six British scones. Only the cheese scone has any physical resemblance to an American biscuit. From what I can tell, (but I'm not expert on British scones), the resemblance between British scones and American biscuits is superficial at best. It would be good to hear from an expert eater or baker of British scones, though. Lou Sander (talk) 14:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

text: Some editors have made changes to this section, including what seems to be original research. Please don't do that unless you can provide a verifiable reference. These differences are cultural in nature, and while everyone from either culture has an opinion about them, not all those opinions are supported by reliable sources. Lou Sander (talk) 00:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the article, scones originated in Scotland. According to the photo of Scottish scones, triangular shapes predominate. I don't doubt that there are many round scones, but somebody needs to find an authoritative source from the UK. Hopefully it will recognize Scotland as well as England. I was able to find some American cookbooks that have scones sections, but of course they aren't from the Sconish Motherland. See the section below for a suggestion. (BTW, while individual recipes give some indication of shapes, and while life experience counts for a lot, neither of them are really reliable sources for the shapes of scones. We need cookbooks or other sources on baking.) Lou Sander (talk) 17:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Scones as American biscuits

message: We need some referenced material about the shapes of scones. Various editors have their opinions, but they don't cite sources. I've looked at a lot of recipes from the UK, and a lot of scones from the US, but I don't have anything conclusive. Scones seem to have several "traditional" shapes, depending on where they are and who is speaking. I've seen 1) roundish, dropped from a spoon onto the griddle or pan, 2) roundish, made with a cutter like an American biscuit, 3) triangular or wedge-shaped, cut from a large circular piece of dough, and 4) square, in the US and in a few commercial UK scones. See the above paragraphs for some discussion of the matter. Lou Sander (talk) 14:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannica Online says that scones are "rolled into a round shape and cut into quarters before baking on a griddle." I regard EB as a reliable source with British roots, but I'm guessing that other sources would take issue with them on shape. Lou Sander (talk) 17:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

text: If other sources would take issue with EB, what's needed is to find some reliable sources and cite them. It's not good enough to advance your own opinion, or to say that it's obvious, or to say that lots of people agree with something. I don't know a thing at first hand about UK scones, but as far as I can see, the EB's claim is from a reliable source and is confirmed by the photo in the article. The assertion that British scones are usually round is, so far, not very well supported. Lou Sander (talk) 02:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

text: It's definitely true that we can find U.K. examples of round scones, triangular/sector of a circle scones, and at least a few square scones (one of the supermarket scones looks a bit square to me). Of the round ones, it seems that most are cut with a cutter, but there are mentions of ones that are dropped onto a baking sheet. It also seems true that in the U.S., scones tend to be triangular (but the U.S. is not the home of the scone). Further, it seems that there are griddle scones and oven scones. What is needed is a source, preferably from the U.K., that discusses this whole situation. Surely there's a book over there that does that and can be quoted or paraphrased here. (The Goldman reference discusses it, but it's a U.S. source, and scones are just a minor chapter in it.) Somebody from the U.K. needs to help us out by going to the library, finding a good reference, and quoting it here. I'll try from this end, but U.K. sources are scarce over here. Lou Sander (talk) 12:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

text: I agree that we should find a "reliable source" for the history etc.. In the meantime, I've added another weblink. I think some supermarkets do non-circular scones in their "premium" lines, perhaps to set themselves apart, but that is not the norm . 128.232.1.193 (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I had seen that CakeBaker source and chose not to include it. They said that early scones were of fine white flour and baking powder, which is in conflict with many other sources, which say oats, not fine white flour. Also, baking powder is a 19th-century invention, while scones are much older than that. My conclusion: CakeBaker isn't reliable. (I'm not taking it out, though.) Lou Sander (talk) 17:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Let me throw a quote from the OED into the mix: "Scone: A large round cake made of wheat or barley-meal baked on a griddle; one of the four quadrant-shaped pieces into which such a cake is often cut; more generally, a soft cake of barley- or oatmeal, or wheat-flour, baked in single portions on a griddle or in an oven..." 128.232.1.193 (talk) 15:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needed: A section about shapes 

message: Here is a list of ingredients for some Apple scones made in the bakery of a smallish U.S. supermarket: Enriched flour bleached (wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, iron, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), partially hydrogenated soybean oil and/or cottonseed oil, sugar, diced apples, water, dextrose, dried corn syrup, modified corn starch, egg white, egg yolk, baking soda, cinnamon, nonfat milk, salt, erythorbic acid and citric acid (preservatives), artificial color, natural & artificial flavor, soy flour. Glaze: sugar, water, corn syrup, agar agar [sic], artificial color, potassium sorbate (preservative), citric acid, natural & artificial flavor, locust bean gum, mono & diglycerides. Contains: soy, milk, eggs, wheat.
Grandmum, custodian of the ancient family recipe, is rolling over in her grave. Lou Sander (talk) 02:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ingredients 

message: Didn't make the original removal - but an uinknown editor has brought this to attention:
"The baking of scones at home often involves a certain mystique, closely tied to heritage baking. They tend to be made from family recipes rather than books, since it is often a family member who holds the "best" and most treasured recipe in their files"
This is a horrendous statement - and although referenced is obviously POV of the author. How can any encyclopedia state that baking contains 'mystique' - a subjective judgement is ever I heard one. And 'heritage' baking is  a strange concept probably not known outside of the US; if known there. This phrase sounds contrived by the author of the reference. Additionally, there is no evidence that scones tend to be made from family recipes (most are commercially made) - and again the words best and most treasured is ridiculous POV and holds no place here. Yes this statement may have a source - but it is a badly done piece of work and I move for it to be removed. Kunchan (talk) 00:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In spite of the strongly-held opinions of editors, the source has something valuable to say about scones, and it isn't just some blogger going on about what his grandma thinks. The standard of Wikipedia is verifiablilty, and this statement is verifiable. I don't see what "objectivity" has to do with it--the guy is making observations about British cultural matters. And it may be true that most scones are made commercially. A source would be nice. In any event, there ARE home made scones, and we have a verifiable source that says something about them. It's not "obvious" (to me) that anybody's Point Of View is being advanced by what he says. Lou Sander (talk) 01:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not entirely obvious what the fellow means by "horrendous," or "POV," or "strange," or "ridiculous." And the article doesn't claim that scones "tend to be made" from family recipes. I don't really agree with the "sounds contrived" or "badly done piece of work," but of course those are subjective opinions. 74.1.175.146 (talk) 01:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

text: I am all for improving this article. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Verifiability. I'll look again at the sources you provided. As I remember it, they were basically recipes for round scones. Nobody is saying that some scones aren't round. Verifiable, reliable sources ARE saying that there are other shapes. Lou Sander (talk) 03:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I just added some material about the wide availability of round scones in the UK. I don't have a reference for it, but it seems that it's obvious to people from the UK, and I doubt that anybody would challenge it. (But of course I'm a Yank, so I need to be especially careful about unsourced statements about Brit culture.) Lou Sander (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: For removal

message: There seems to be a discrepancy between the article and reference #5, the full text of which is available online. The reference says that 65% pronounce it /skɒn/, while only 35% pronounce it /skəʊn/. The reference also says that 99% of Scots prefer it to rhyme with John. I don't know much about IPA, but I think that the article has it backwards. (Vandalism?) Being a Yank, I also don't know which is the U English pronunciation and which is the Non-U English. 
Would someone who knows IPA and U- vs. Non-U please fix this up? As you do it, please match up John and Joan with the IPA stuff, so that we who eschew IPA won't be confused. Lou Sander (talk) 00:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: And another thing, the IPA looks like it describes the U-pronunciation, but no self-respecting Scottish speaker would use a dipthong like that unless they were taking the mickey! U-speakers and Scots may well both pronounce "Scone" to rhyme with "Joan" but then they have rather different ideas on how "Joan" should be pronounced. -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed it. The article now matches the reference (it previously had it backwards). I removed the unreferenced "U" and "non-U" claims. Lou Sander (talk) 02:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation section needs to be fixed? 

message: I just reverted an edit that used a different IPA symbol than the one used in the reference. The one in the reference is . It is available online for anyone to see. The one I reverted is . I'm not very knowledgeable about these symbols, but I'm reluctant to allow one in the article that is different than what is in the reference. If somebody wants to change it, they need to explain themself here. (I'm the first to admit that there might be a good explanation. We just need to see it.) Lou Sander (talk) 00:53, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  IPA Pronunciation 

message: Is the 12 January inclusion of a long definition from the OED a copyright violation? It looks as though it's verbatim from the dictionary. --Lou Sander (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed it. Rmhermen (talk) 19:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright violation? 

message: I deleted the picture of scones with honey. It's been here before, and is really a USDA photo of honey and American biscuits. Also, what happened to the former close-up of a scone with jam and clotted cream? I thought it summed up "scone" pretty well. Lou Sander (talk) 16:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: I've signed in for the first time in Lord knows how long in order to correct a mistake in the article. The reference [1] in the text states that "3.1.1. Does scone more usually rhyme with John or with Joan? or even with June? British dictionaries have usually preferred /skɒn/, while recognizing the existence of /skəʊn/. The Scottish proper name Scone, though, is /skuːn/. The polling
figures were 65% for /ɒ/, 35% for /əʊ/, the latter gradually rising in popularity (oldest, 30%; youngest, 38%). Regionally, there was no important difference except that Scots overwhelmingly (99%) prefer the vowel of John." This means that scone (as in John) is used more, and dictionaries typically prefer that version. I'm changing the text accordingly. El Pollo Diablo (Talk) 19:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation again

message: With all respect to Woodland Fairy Acres as a maker of scone mixes, I don't think their web site qualifies as a reliable source, especially on the etymology of this very old word. If there have been debates about it, we need to see them elsewhere than in a commercial site devoted to the sale of scone mixes. Just my opinion, of course. Lou Sander (talk) 19:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The user's edits are consistent with self-promotion of a business. I have reverted the insertion. ✤ JonHarder talk 20:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: An editor keeps putting this material back in. I've reverted it, based on what is discussed here. The source is NOT reliable, IMHO. For example, Woodland Fairy Acres scone mix company has a tiny, if even existent, reputation for fact checking. Information to the contrary would be welcome. See WP:RS. Lou Sander (talk) 03:02, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I once again reverted this material from an unreliable commercial source. It belongs in an advertisement, not an encyclopedia. "Popular belief", indeed. Lou Sander (talk) 11:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

text: There were other unsubstantiated etymological claims in this paragraph. I removed them and provided a reference for those that remain. Lou Sander (talk) 12:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliable sources 

message: Cream teas traditionally consist of scones, jam and clotted cream (not just cream as the article says).  In fact, it's surprising the cream tea (and its Devonian/Cornish origins) hasn't got its own section here or even its own page.  I'm not sure of its global reputation, but it's highly celebrated here in the UK.  212.183.134.131 (talk) 22:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: See Cream tea.  Richard New Forest (talk) 22:30, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cream Tea 

message: The claim about floral flavors is unsubstantiated by a reference. It seems to be a remnant of past persistent efforts by an anonymous specialty scone maker to insert a commercial promotion into the article. These floral scones seem to be, at most, an unusual, unimportant variety, unworthy of mention in an encyclopedia, let alone a long mention that includes the names of multiple flowers. Unless someone demonstrates that this is not the case, I intend to remove all mention of floral flavors. --Lou Sander (talk) 12:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm quite fine with that. Mangoe (talk) 12:02, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Floral scones 

message: The article presently makes an unsourced, and incorrect, claim that all scones offered in United States coffee houses are of the sweet triangular variety. This seems to be implying that Starbucks is in fact "all us coffee houses" as I know of several such retailers in Central Pennsylvania and Upstate New York that sell savory varieties. I can also point to more then a handful of recipies in american sources for savory scones, which would be quite odd if the product was not ever eaten here. 
173.163.96.185 (talk) 17:06, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Savory U.S. Scones 

message: As interesting and relevant as it is, the lexicology of the word "Scone" is not why I searched for this page. I was looking for the history and varieties, primarily. I think the Lexicology section should be bumped down lower- maybe to the end of the article.
Mghoffmann (talk) 18:33, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should lexicology be first? 

message: I'm surprised no-one has noted the lines from John Betjeman's "How to get on in Society" (satirising lower middle-class usages), which is clear in its denigration of the "rhymes with Joan" (or in this case, stone) pronunciation as pretentious and non-U: 
Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.
Like some other usages in Nancy Mitford's "Noblesse Oblige", it seems that northern working class usage and southern upper class usage here coincide, leaving the wretched middle classes swimming in a linguistic maelstrom of their own making.
Ghughesarch (talk) 01:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation - yet again 

message: "In Hungary, a pastry very similar to the British version exists under the name "pogácsa"."" 
The hungarian Pogatschi are made with yeast, totally different in taste and "bite".
84.183.117.100 (talk) 13:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pogatschi 

message: It should also be noted that the "HISTORY" section of this wiki page is completely wrong. 
"The original scone was round and flat, usually as large as a medium-sized plate. It was made with unleavened oats and baked on a griddle (or girdle, in Scots), then cut into triangular sections for serving. Today, many would call the large round cake a bannock, and call the triangles scones. In Scotland, the words are often used interchangeably.[7]"
That is not a scone, it is an oat cake (more inline with the American biscuit). Bannocks and scones are related, even the same shape, but they are not the same nor are they "cake". The ingredients of bannock and scones are different but they are cooked in the same traditional ways. Whoever wrote that section is not a Scot, Polish or English maybe but definitely not a Scot. The words scone and bannock are not interchangeable at all. You either want a Bannock or a scone.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.112.140.132 (talk) 19:53, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in complete agreement, they are both completely different items and the word is never used interchangeably in Scotland, a scone in Scotland is either a tattie(potato scone), or one of the ones we know and love to have jam and cream on  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcbscotland (talk • contribs) 08:30, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The claim is sourced however.  Unfortunately I can't access that source (neither as the original "The World Encyclopedia of Bread and Bread Making") to confirm that the interpetation is correct.  To remove it, we should ideally find another source with a history contesting this one.  —PaleoNeonate – 23:17, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: I am removing several paragraphs that are about North American biscuits. No one calls these scones and the text itself says that they are not related to scones.--Baller McGee (talk) 02:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  North American biscuit information removal 

message: The first time I heard the pronunciation of scone not rhyming with tone was in Vancouver, BC, Canada. This article has no mention of scones in Canada, either in Lexicology section or the places where people bake them, eat them. Accidental omission? --Prairieplant (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada is not included here, why? 

message: "In Hungary, a pastry very similar to the British version exists under the name "pogácsa"."
No,it's two totally different thing. Pogacsa have nothing in common with scon. 84.203.148.221 (talk) 10:23, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pagacsa 

message: Scones 2001:9E8:BFE7:DF00:A8EC:FDBD:80A5:DFA2 (talk) 14:58, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Englisch 

message: Having grown up speaking a dialect of English (US southern, bordering on Appalachian) in which "tone" and "gone" rhyme I was confused by the pronunciation section.  I had to mentally imagine how a British person might pronounce these words to get unconfused. Unless I'm mistaken, "fawn" might be a better rhyme than "gone". There are so many many minor variations in English (think "Mary", "merry", "marry") that I don't think this is a good way to indicate pronunciation.  IPA would be better if everyone understood it.
If an expert on English accents wanted  to do a valuable service, they might try to compile a list of words whose pronunciation is mostly unambiguous among the major English accents.  Such a list may not be possible though. Robcalidus (talk) 16:33, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Still more pronunciation 

message: What's called a scone here is a firm, crumbly and triangular pastry with fruit in the center.
The closet equivalent to an English scone in the US is a southern-style biscuit.  The biscuits from KFC are a very close approximation, having eaten both, but that's just my opinion.  57.135.233.22 (talk) 08:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  United States