Talk:Pavlova (dessert)

message: This need’s correcting, the desert predates the 20th century claims of Australia & New Zealand
https://www.smh.com.au/goodfood/eating-out/pavlova-research-reveals-desserts-shock-origins-20151010-gk5yv9.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.98.27.211 (talk) 10:34, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

message: some people pronounce it the Russian way (stress on first syllable), which is surely preferable as the name is Russian. I have added this as an alternative.Seadowns (talk) 13:57, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: I have read this entire talk page and it appears that most Australians have grown up with a myth, and upon having had that myth exposed, instead of accepting the new reality some have become pig headed about their myth. It's like the flat earth society - instead of accepting that the earth is a sphere they just come up with more and more tenuous arguements to assert what they want to believe. See confirmation bias
It is obvious that the New Zealand case is clearly the strongest and the Australian case lacks substance. Just as rugby has been adopted by New Zealanders as their national sport without any need to claim they invented it, pavlova should be accepted in the same way by Australians. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 09:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  With respect, that's a rubbish analogy. It's a confirmed fact that rugby was invented in the UK. It isn't remotely confirmed where pavlova was invented. Saying 'New Zealand has the strongest case' is weasel words. What does that even mean? That New Zealand has a 51% chance of inventing pavlova, therefore we just need to accept it as a fact because it's more likely that the 49% chance of Australia inventing pavlova? There's a different between confirmed facts and probabilities. Looking at the sources, it seems more likely pavlova originated in Australia anyway e.g the trove link that another person posted on this talk page. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 17:02, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Most Australians aren't arguing the point. This article is stable. Few people actually care. Format (talk) 01:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm an Australian, and I don't give a damn where pavlova came from. Flash Man999 (talk) 15:11, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

text: The only way this is ever going to be settled is if New Zealand becomes officially part of Australia. Which would be awesome.14.2.39.63 (talk) 12:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

text:  I'm a kiwi who moved to Sydney recently and I was surprised to see many Aussies celebrating Australia Day with pavlova. It may have originated in New Zealand but it doesn't mean it can't be traditional in Australia too.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.56.127.1 (talk) 06:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

text: As the article quotes: "People have been doing meringue with cream for a long time, I don't think Australia or New Zealand were the first to think of doing that."-gadfium 06:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

text: In my family, we personally think the very idea to label desserts with surnames of ballerinas is weird. HOWEVER, in 1911, ice cream was an incredible rarity worthy of some loud name. In this sense, I like to think "pavlova" was supposed to be a diet-ish dessert made of juice rather than butter, cream and other fatty stuff. Of course, it's a personal opinion; I am just saying 11-11-1911 mention of pavlova ice block feels wholesome, while the same ballet-related name slapped to a cake-sized meringue feels like it would be a marketing ploy to use in our decade. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 09:35, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is a non-debate 

message: Evidence shows that Pavlova originated in New Zealand, and then adapted in Australia shortly afterwards, yet very little is said of the Pavlova's Australian history, why it is considered by many to be Australian, and an Australian point of view on it. However, and with no disrespect to any NZ friends, much is said of the New Zealand point of view and origins. To me this shows a lack of depth on the subject of Pavlovas and fails to demonstrate a neutral point of view. It would be appropriate if more was explained in the article in this regard. --Belfry (talk) 13:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a general problem, and not just related to Australia, though input on the rise of the dessert from an Aussie point of view is definitely important. The early history of pavlova's now fairly thoroughly covered, but not how it reached iconic status in either country, or whether it or similar foods are known elsewhere. It's more a case of  than . Grutness...wha? 00:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I know of no formal argument presented by any Australian (except for a single relative of Bert Sachse) that pavlova really is Australian. The general Australians who think it is Australian probably simply assumed it was, because if it isn't French, Italian, English or American, well, I suppose it must be. A google search will probably reveal 1000s of sites saying Australians claim it is Australian. But then you look at the sites and they are journalistic type articles recounting the same general story that they apparently got from... other journalistic type articles! (Some are used as references on this page, like this one  - not that there's anything wrong with that.) I did a search of this type - admittedly a year or two ago - and really didn't find any flag waving sites/articles by any Australians claiming first hand that pavlova was Australian; it was mostly third party articles simply saying that Australians firmly insist it is Australian, and that they always argue with New Zealand over this. I suspect some Australians (and people in other countries, possibly) sometimes just assume that something personally familiar to them that isn't prevalent in international media is "uniquely Australian". (You can often find this thinking in wikipedia.) Things often thought to be Australian but kind of aren't really include the cooler, the barbecue, thongs, steak pie. Likewise I have heard people say things like "the phrase banana republic is an Australian phrase that means...". These are just assumptions/conclusions made with little thought, in my opinion. People simply assume it must be Australian because it exists in their own country, but wasn't mentioned every second episode in the endless reruns of The Brady Bunch that played continuously in Australia for 30 years. I do not know if a large proportion of Australian's really do have a strong sense of tradition regarding pavlova. This UK article (from 2005!) suggests this is the "latest" thing to divide Aust and NZ . Format (talk) 00:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In a few hours searching Google News Archive I did a quick scan of dozens of free news articles (didn't view the many subsciption only articles) that mention this dish. It seems the pavolva has been reported on several times in the United States, and has occasionaly been available in US restaurants, since the mid 1970s. Many articles say it is from, or is popular in, Australia. A number say it is from or is popular in, "Australia and New Zealand". A few say it is from "New Zealand". Occasionaly the dish is said to be from, or be popular, "Downunder". Some articles do not say where it originated.  It is mentioned a few times as a recipe in Australian publications - most of which do not say where it is from or who invented it... Here is a random selections of articles:       - New York Times.     - New York Times.   - New York Times.            - pasties are not Australian but English.     - This article claims it was created by a Syndey [sic] chef.   - this 1963 article says the dish has no known link with the Russian Ballerina.   - this 1962 Australian article calls Pavlova "our national dish", but observes how "Australian" items are hardly unique, as Pavlova is close to the French meringues in terms of preparation. ... So it seems the country of origin has not so much been hotly contested by Australia and New Zealand. I do not see much evidence of that. In many cases, and for several decades, comments of whether it is from Australia and/or New Zealand is a minor bit of trivia that appears in the lead-in to American recipe articles or restaurant reviews. Any rivalry seems only to be described in relatively recent articles, and usually UK and US articles. Format (talk) 06:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

text:  Hi Belfry, I'm afraid to say that any Australian viewpoint is going to be quickly shouted down by the fanatical Kiwi editors. As with the Phar Lap article, any viewpoint other than the accepted Kiwi doctrine just cannot be accepted. The New Zealand national identity is dependent on it. I have in the past attempted to point out to the Kiwi fanatics that the first pavlova recipe was merely a renaming of an existing recipe for the meringue cake, recipes of which were already widespread in NZ, Australia, Europe and the US. The fact is that the pavlova was not invented by anyone. A similar argument applies to the ANZAC biscuit, recipes of which existed in both NZ and Australia well before the name was first applied.Ernest the Sheep (talk) 06:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you'd care to look, my ovine friend, you will notice that the first "fanatical Kiwi editor" (sic) to comment on this thread agreed with Belfry. Please take your unwarranted anti-New Zealand sentiments elsewhere. Grutness...wha? 22:47, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah right, despite your agreement you have done nothing to remove the irrelevant reference to ANZAC biscuits, nor have you removed the even more gratuitous reference to the NZ advertising campaign. I note that you've also been undoing the edits are made on the Australian cuisine article. I think your actions pretty much back up my comments. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 00:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agreed that more needs to be said about pavlova's role in the culture of Australia. How, exactly, does than not square with me removing "gratuitous references" to things completely unrelated to pavlova's role in the culture of Australia? And yes, I undid your change to Australian cuisine, which was vandalism - you took out valid references to a relevant point on the article. Grutness...wha? 00:12, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The references I removed were of a poor quality. Mind you the majority of so called references quoted in Wikipedia are of a very low standard, so that is not saying much. However the particular references were presumably to support a contentious point, a point which it was not necessary to make as it is addressed in the individual articles on the pavlova and ANZAC biscuits. Hence my description of it as "gratuitous". Tell me, just why are you so desperate for those references to remain in the article? Ernest the Sheep (talk) 05:39, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already explained at your user talk page why those references are necessary - they clarify the nature of the articles being mentioned in text; they ensure that editors can find relevant information outside Wikipedia on the articles mentioned; they show that any claims made are not original research; they help users find additional information on the topic; they improve Wikipedia's credibility by indicating that information about the topic has not been either deliberately or accidentally ignored in the writing of the article. All these are primary purposes of citations. Removal of such citations is vandalism without due reason. Listing certain food items as "unique" without making mention of the fact that they are not unique to Australia. Your reason for removing the references (in order to remove one weasel word) is disingenuous. In this case, the term is not a weasel word anyway - check Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words#Exceptions. The third example is a clear analogy of the current situation. Grutness...wha? 23:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I read your so called explanations, they didn't make much sense to me I'm afraid. In fact I get the feeling that you are desperately clutching at straws in order to justify your silly knee-jerk reactions to any edit which I propose. I'm being disingenuous?? LOL, that is rich. Firstly the section in question was about iconic foods, as far as I could tell there was no implication that these foods were "unique" to Australia. I really have no idea how you arrived at such a conclusion. Well, maybe it's the New Zealand inferiority complex at work again, but I'll not go there because I know how sensitive some Kiwi editors get whenever it gets mentioned, the poor things. But back to your point, whatever it is, I'm still not sure exactly what you are on about. But if you think that anytime pavlova or ANZAC biscuits are mentioned in the context of Australia it is of vital importance to provide those references then your services are urgently required over at the Greek cuisine page, there is reference to Baklava without any mention of it being created first in Turkey. It could turn into an international crisis situation!! Ernest the Sheep (talk) 02:41, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: as far as I could tell there was no implication that these foods were "unique" to Australia??? The section header was "Unique and iconic Australian foods". What part of that fails to imply that the foods were both iconic and unique to Australia? Grutness...wha? 23:19, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  LOL, is that what has been troubling you? It does seem that you've got yourself all worked up over a very minor point. Why didn't you just change the section header if it really upset you that much, rather than getting into an edit war? My interpretation of the header was that it implied that the foods mentioned were either iconic or unique, but not necessarily both. For example the meat pie is not unique to Australia is it? I don't know why you would decide on such an interpretation, perhaps it's that New Zealand inferiority complex to blame, yet again. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 02:56, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So you think that "unique and iconic" means "unique or iconic"? Interesting. Grutness...wha? 22:09, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In the particular context in question, yes. I thought the meaning obvious, and am somewhat surprised that you could have interpreted it in such a way. I suppose it is possible to interpret it that way, but it seems a little unnatural. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 09:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems both surprising and illogical that you should interpret "and" as meaning anything other than "and", in this or any other context. Seems unnatural and highly unlikely to consider that "A and B" should mean "A or B". Grutness...wha? 23:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, it's a matter of context, it hardly seems a point worth arguing. How would you interpret the meaning of "and" in the phrase "green and red apples"? Ernest the Sheep (talk) 02:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Point of View and deeper history explained 

message: The only rational I can see for including the reference to Anzac biscuits in this article is (petty) nationalistic debate--no pavlova I've ever eaten had a crumbled Anzac biscuit crust. Stevebeck (talk) 14:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, there is no reason to include any mention of ANZAC biscuits in the article. I have made mention of this previously, but to no avail. The problem is Kiwi editors and their nationalistic agenda -they have gone berserk with power and there is no way of reasoning with them. But we shouldn't be too harsh on them, it is really the massive New Zealand inferiority complex that is to blame, the Kiwi editors can't help themselves. Quite sad, really. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 19:00, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biscuits 

message: Noticed the last couple of edits before mine; an IP adding 'New Years Day brunch' as an example alongside the already present Christmas lunch, someone removing it as unnecessary and the IP re-adding it with an argument in the edit summary that 'examples can serve to illustrate various occasions it can be consumed'. Which made me wonder if either example was actually necessary, 'celebratory or holiday meal' doesn't seem like a difficult concept which needs extensive illustrating. Though I could see an argument that it flows better with at least one example or maybe two, but 'New Years Day Brunch' might not be the best choice for a second example, it doesn't really seem like a traditional or particularly notable 'celebratory or holiday meal' but even with that aside it's another example of a holiday meal which already has Christmas dinner to illustrate it, so perhaps as an alternative 'birthday party' would be more suitable as an example of a celebratory occasion on which they are commonly served?Number36 (talk) 21:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not see "New Years Day Brunch" as a celebratory meal - there is no tradition of any type of celebratory meal on New Year's Day as far as I know. I agree that "celebratory or holiday meal" is enough and that really examples are not needed. BTW In my experience pavlova is not really part of an Australian Christmas Day meal, it is simply something that tends to be served at large gatherings any time over summer. In contrast a Christmas pudding would always be served on Christmas Day, but less likely served any other day, and so is more a Christmas dish. Format (talk) 07:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, well I agree with that (other than the fact that I'd be very disappointed if I didn't get pav on christmas day) and there's been no further input in the last month so I'll go ahead and remove the examples.Number36 (talk) 21:41, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Examples of celebratory and holiday meals

message: From the OED, 1989 edition
"pavlova 
Austral. and N.Z. 
[f. the name of Anna Pavlova (1885–1931), Russian ballerina.]   A dessert or cake, now usually one made with meringue, whipped cream, and fruit. Also attrib.      
1927 Davis Dainty Dishes (ed. 6) (Davis Gelatine, N.Z., Ltd.) Pavlova. Dissolve all but a teaspoonful of Gelatine in the hot water, and all the sugar except a dessertspoonful [etc.]. "
so that NZ news report mentioned in the main article is only a couple of decades out of date! Theodore D (talk) 04:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: OED

message: Isn't the cake named in honour of Anna Pavlova, as the article says, because it was a favourite dessert of hers? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Named to honour her, but to the best of our knowledge not because it was her favourite dish. (It didn't exist before her downunder tour/s so it couldn't have been her favourite dish before it was invented and named). Her article says "The Pavlova dessert is believed to have been created in honour of the dancer...... ". Moriori (talk) 20:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Origins of the name

message: article states "The major difference between the pavlova and a large meringue is the addition of cornflour, which results in the pavlova having a crisp and crunchy outer shell, and a soft, moist marshmallow-like centre, unlike meringue which is usually solid throughout." This is plain wrong, as any accurate reading of Prof Leach's book would confirm. Indeed, neither vinegar or cornflour are necessary to achieve the desired crisp crust and soft centre. This can be obtained with a suitable proportion of sugar per egg white, added gradually, and a longer cooking time. The addition of vinegar will improve the quality of the meringue, while cornflour will, if a small quantity of water is also included in the recipe, enhance the marshmallow effect. It should also be added that the 1929 'pavlova' recipe referenced in the artice is simply a re-named meringue cake recipe, such dishes being fairly common at the time. Theodore D (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Cornflour myth

message: Pardon me, but I would think that if you were going to include corn-anything in the pavlova shell, cornstarch--starch from 
maize--would be the product to use, and not cornflour--flour from ground maize.  Is cornflour the down under term for 
cornstarch? Rootlet (talk) 05:52, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Dunno, but cornflour is the is the name of the product used in Australia and NZ. Is cornstarch the American term for cornflour? HiLo48 (talk) 05:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Yes, US cornstarch = Aus cornflour.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.198.97.39 (talk) 11:19, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Cornstarch, perhaps?

message: 3 egg whites, 1 tsp essence of vanilla,
9 oz. castor sugar, 1 tsp vinegar,
pinch of salt
Beat egg whites until quite stiff, fold in sugar, add vanilla and vinegar. Place on greased paper on greased tray and bake slowly about 1 to 1 ½ hours. (very slow oven 250 F). Pile whipped cream and chopped fruit on top and decorate with Edmonds jelly (chopped). Theodore D (talk) 02:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: first Edmonds' pavlova recipe 1939

message: In the main article it is stated "The nationality of its creator has been a source of argument between the two nations for many years, but formal research indicates New Zealand as the source". This appears to indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts. It is also not supported by Prof Leach's book which is cited as the reference for the claim. Certainly no page number is indicated. In fact the dispelling of the "myth of the heroic inventor" is one of the central themes of the book. But it does require a thorough reading of the text, and I suspect few in here have gone to that trouble, at least judging by some of the contents of the article. As I pointed out above, and illustrated by citing the first Edmonds' recipe, the inclusion of cornflour is not what separates the pavlova from the large meringue. Large meringues with cornflour as an ingredient existed side by side with pavlova recipes. As Prof Leach has pointed out in her book, these first recipes called 'pavlova' were simply recipes for a large meringue cake renamed 'pavlova'. The 1929 recipe, ‘Festival’s’ Pavlova Cake, is simply a double layered meringue cake sandwiched and topped with cream. What we can say about this 1929 recipe is that it is the earliest example of a large meringue cake renamed as 'pavlova'. What appears to be less well known is that recipes for a large meringue cakes with vinegar as an ingredient (as with the Edmonds' first recipe) can be found in American cookbooks over a decade before the "Meringue with Fruit Filling" of 1926, which some have mistakenly called a prototype of the pavlova. Hopefully, with time, nationalistic sentiment will give way to accuracy, and this article can be written to more accurately reflect the story of the 'pavlova'. Theodore D (talk) 23:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: confusion still reigns

message: Quote from food historian Michael Symons very nicely sums up the situation: "In the 1920s and 30s, numerous large meringue cake recipes, and the pavlova name, circulated in both countries. After two or three decades, everyone gained an idea of the "real" pavlova, so expected some "original" recipe that never existed." Theodore D (talk) 21:28, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: While I understand the point, there has to have been a first recipe that corresponds to the modern concept of a pavlova. I mean just by cause and effect. It may've evolved from similar recipes and the demarcation point might be difficult to establish, but there was at some point a recipe that was first one which matches the modern recipe, i.e. an original recipe. Similar recipes or desserts that may have used the name pavlova at the time, while maybe noteworthy, are not the subject of the article.Number36 (talk) 23:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  You'd need to first define what you mean by the modern recipe. Perhaps one that includes both cornflour and vinegar? But then there are going to be recipes that are exceptions to that rule, such as the first Edmonds' recipe I gave above. The point is that there was no single instant of creation, rather the story of the 'pavlova' is one of evolution. In fact, the very first example of a meringue dish named 'pavlova' is Rose Rutherford's little Pavlova Cakes of 1928. But this seems to be somewhat discounted now because these were small meringues rather than a single large meringue. Yet nowadays we do recognise variation within the 'pavlova'. For example the mini pavlova, or the more extreme pavlova roll. During the 1930s there were a variety of meringue dishes with different names such as 'Meringue Cake', 'Meringue Cream Cake', 'Marshmallow Meringue', 'Meringue Gateau' which existed alongside the 'Pavlova'. The 'modern' pavlova evolved out of these dishes. For example if you had never heard of the pavlova and presented a recipe for Meringue Gateau to your dinner party guests, then it is more than likely they would inform you that this was in fact a 'pavlova'. So with time all these recipes eventually merged into the one strand we now call the 'pavlova'. (This might be a little bit of a simplification, but it does illustrate the concept of evolution rather than creation). Theodore D (talk) 20:29, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't personally have to define what I mean by the current recipe, rather it's what Reliable Sources™ define it as, and as you wrote above in the 'My proposed edit' section, Professor Leach does do this, and gives the earliest example. Also even though it is an evolution, there still has to be a first recipe that conforms to whatever criteria you like for the modern recipe. A variation is a variation, so not by definition the standard recipe.Number36 (talk) 21:41, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm  not sure I understand what you are on about here. I am not aware of a set 'criteria' defining the 'modern' recipe. But if you could specifiy such a criteria then it would be helpful for the discussion. Recipes will always vary. If you want you might like to select the first large meringue cake to be renamed 'pavlova' as the moment of 'creation'. The earliest known instance is the 1929 recipe, ‘Festival’s’ Pavlova Cake. Theodore D (talk) 23:02, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The point was that for any criteria which you might use, there would be a first recipe that conformed to the definition which matched them. But as I said, only what reliable sources state is relevant though, it's not up to me to specify the criteria which define the current pavolva, fortunately as you have pointed out Prof. Leach does give us this as the first example of the current recipe.Number36 (talk) 23:41, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  which recipe are you referring to? Theodore D (talk) 00:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The same one you're referring to, the 1929 recipe.Number36 (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: that 1929 recipe is a double layered meringue cake, sandwiched and topped with cream. In fact there is a little conjecture as to whether it has a soft or crisp centre. I'm not sure whether it would be recognisable nowadays as a 'modern' recipe. But you're missing the point. Double layered (and indeed single layered) meringue cakes already existed as this time. The 1929 recipe is simply such a cake renamed as 'pavlova'. Theodore D (talk) 00:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You state in the section above "According to Prof Leach the Pavlova Cake published in the NZ Dairy Exporter Annual in October 1929 is the first current recipe for the pavlova as we know it today."Number36 (talk) 02:05, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  yeah, slightly ambiguous that. But it is, in the sense that it is a large meringue cake. Most would recognise such a dish as falling within a reasonable definition of what a pavlova should be. The information missing is that such dishes existed prior to this, and the 1929 recipe is significant only as the first known example of a large meringue cake to be renamed as pavlova. But in itself this recipe could not be considered a new creation. Theodore D (talk) 02:50, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. What is the reference and wording of the reference, for the earlier recipes being the identical to the 1929 pavlova? And also just to clarify does Prof. Leach state that the 1929 recipe was the first example of the current pavlova as we know it today.Number36 (talk) 04:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  pg. 77 of Prof Leach's book has a recipe for a Meringue Cake from 1927. It is a 3 egg white meringue rather than the 4 of the 1929 recipe, but it is basically the same thing. The 1927 recipe might be just about the earliest from NZ which includes cornflour or vinegar as an ingedient. However large meringue cakes which included vinegar as an ingredient can be found in American cookbooks for up to a decade prior to their appearance in NZ. Theodore D (talk) 06:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait, are you saying they're basically the same thing, or does a RS reference? Also where is the ref relating to your assertion about the American cookbooks? Is this OR/Synth, or do you have a ref that discusses them in this context. Also again, to clarify, does Prof. Leach, state that the 1929 recipe was the first example of the current pavlova as we know it today? As you stated she did earlier. That doesn't really sound like an ambiguous statement if so.Number36 (talk) 07:16, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

text: pg. 81 of Prof Leach's book "Pavlova cakes emerged from meringue cakes not, as most of us formerly supposed, by the addition of key ingredients (cornflour, vinegar) believed to have been absent from meringue cake recipes, but by a simple act of renaming. In New Zealand, meringue cakes continued to exist under their old name, side by side with pavlovas, for the next two decades, and their recipes are entirely comparable to those of pavlova cakes". Theodore D (talk) 19:27, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Now we're getting somewhere :), that seems like something that should indeed be added to the article. Now that's established, does she have anything to say about the origins of 'Meringue cakes'? Are they then identical as this would seem to indicate at the beginning or merely comparable? Is it indicating that they diverged with the naming in some respect, so as to exist 'side by side', or simply that some people called them meringue cakes whilst others called them pavlovas? Also what was the wording of the ref that you, others, and the article, based the statement about the 1929 recipe being the first example of the current recipe then?Number36 (talk) 19:51, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, just googling meringue cake now there seems to be a variety of different similar things at this point which use that name, could it be that meringue cake was a general term of which this proto-Pav was simply one type?Number36 (talk) 19:59, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  yes, there are some recipes called Meringue Cake that consisted of a sponge cake with a meringue topping. In our context we are referring to meringue only dishes (some of which could have a name other than 'Meringue cake'). According to Prof Leach's book the type of Meringue Cake we are interested in first appears in NZ cookbooks in the 1920s. However, this category of large meringue used as a cake can be traced back to nineteenth-century North America and Europe (pg 77 of Prof Leach's book). The emphasis on the 1929 recipe Festival's 'Pavlova Cake' as the first example of a meringue cake to be named pavlova is mine, although it is a fairly obvious conclusion from the book. However, I probably should add that this cake was more likely to be crisp rather than soft centred, and the 1933 recipe Laurina Stevens' 'Pavlova Cake' is closer to the modern ideal of a pavlova. I think by comparable we mean of the same kind, but there will be variation within recipes, as there is variation in pavlova recipes. Theodore D (talk) 22:52, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

text: Okay, sounds like you've got the basis for some referenced edits to the article as it stands then. What do you propose? Also does she go into any further relevant detail about the 18thC recipes for meringue cake from North America and Europe, where they originated, earliest examples, similarity to modern Pavlova recipes, etc?Number36 (talk) 23:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Illustration of how pavlova cakes and meringue cakes existed side by side. , , , , , , , , . pavlova-type dishes of interest are 'Meringue Cake', 'Meringue Gateau', 'Meringue Cream Cake', 'Marshmallow Cake'.Theodore D (talk) 20:44, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: more on creation myth

message: , not avaliable for free download alas, but does give an alternative view to the singular creation myth being pushed by the wikipedia article. Theodore D (talk) 19:41, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: recent academic article

message: here's Bert's pavlova recipe (purported to be at least) from 1935 . If this is indeed correct then it may well be the first example of a pavlova which used both vinegar and cornflour (and even cream of tartar). It is to be cooked in a tin, so it is not quite the classic free-form pavlova, but nevertheless is looks to be a not insignificant development on what was before. Theodore D (talk) 05:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately we can't really draw conclusions like that, per WP:OR. You seemed to be onto something with the above quotes from Prof Leach's book though, but you didn't give an answer on what your proposed addition to the article using them as support refs would be.Number36 (talk) 08:04, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Herbert Sachse's original recipe

message: this article  gives interesting (and maybe correct?) explanation of roles of various ingredients in a pav. Theodore D (talk) 05:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: How to make the perfect pav

message: further illustation that pavlova was really just an alternative name for meringue cakes . While this pavlova sponge  could possibly be a renamed 'foam torte', which can be found in jewish cookery books. Theodore D (talk) 23:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: gotta say the lack of feedback on all this stuff I've presented is a bit disappointing. Perhaps people do not want to hear about it? Theodore D (talk) 21:14, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: meringue (or pavlova) cakes

message: Keith Money's biography of Anna Pavlova was published in 1982, well before research began into the origins of the dessert. Money's description of this alleged first pavlova would seems to fall into the category of what people would expect the original recipe to have been, based on their idea of the "real" pavlova that exists today (or in 1982). This first recipe apparently included kiwifruit (then called a Chinese gooseberry), so it was certainly a recipe well ahead of its time, if indeed it existed. However, there exists no verifiable source for the claims. Money, a New Zealander, writes that he knew the name Pavlova as he grew up in NZ, "the country that produced the cake which carries her name". Given the year was 1982, that claim would appear to be based on hearsay. Theodore D (talk) 03:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Claim in Keith Money's book

message: According to the opening paragraph in the origin section "Research shows the recipe originated in New Zealand". This is an incorrect statement. It is not supported by the reference cited. As I've mentioned many times before, Prof Leach in her book emphasizes evolution, not creation. There was no original recipe, there would instead probably be a moment when a large meringue cake was first given the name pavlova. That should be made clear in the article. Indeed, the first recorded example of a large meringue cake given the name is 'Festival's' Pavlova (1929). Here is that recipe, Whites of 4 eggs beaten very stiff, add 4 large tablespoons sugar. Beat and lastly add 1/2 tablespoon cornflour. Bake in very slow oven in greased sandwhich tins, and make filling of cream chopped nuts and cherries.-Festival. Here is another recipe, from a publication called The Portland Woman's Exchange Cook Book (1913). Beat well the whites of 6 eggs; add 2 cups of granulated sugar; beat again with eggbeater, then with perforated spoon. Add 1 tablespoon vinegar and 1 teaspoon vanilla. Beat with spoon 15 minutes. Put in 2 patent layer cake tins; bake in slowest possible oven 1 hour. Put between layers a filling of whipped cream, broken walnut meats and cut up marshmallows. Loosen cakes from tins while warm.- Mrs. Jesse Stearns. Given the Futter recipe dates from 1926, it appears that the large meringue cake took a while to reach both Aus and NZ. There is some conjecture as to whether either of these recipes possessed the soft-centre of the modern recipe. Festival's recipe includes cornflour only, while the US recipe included vinegar (so similar to the first Edmond's recipe). Both recipes are double-layered. Over time, recipes become single layered only, and included both cornflour and vinegar, while other ingredients, lemon juice and cream of tartar also make appearances. Another stage in the evolution was the use of baking paper instead of a cake tin. These developments in the evolution of pavlova were not especially notable in themselves, but were borrowed from other recipes, for example the Schaum Torte, a meringue based recipe similar to pavlova which often included both vinegar and cream of tartar as ingredients. Meringue cakes and pavlovas existed side by side for a number of years. The meringue cake went by various names 'Meringue Cake', 'Meringue Gateau', 'Meringue Cream Cake', 'Marshmallow Cake'. Over time, a form of 'natural selection' acted on these various names, along with the pavlova name, until eventually all of these recipes were known simply as pavlova. Theodore D (talk) 03:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Origin

message: One thing that seems to be a unique feature of the pavlova (the modern concept at least) is the addition of cornflour. According to Prof Leach's book (pg 64) the earliest known/recorded meringue recipes specifying the addition of cornflour date to 1896 in Aus, 'Cookery Book of Good and Tried Receipts'. The modern version of the pavlova specifies the adding of both cornflour and vinegar, while earlier versions of the 1930s could specify one, or both ingredients. Here's  an example of a meringue recipe from 1906, with cornflour added. Note that for the recipe in which the cornflour is not added, it is suggested the insides may be scooped out and filled with cream. The one with cornflour has no such recommendation. Although it is not clear, due to the brevity of the recipes, just what the purpose of using cornflour was. Theodore D (talk) 23:16, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Idea of cornflour

message: This article should represent two things, the first of which that there are references that indicate origins for both Australia and New Zealand, so it would be unwise to portray one as the origin. Secondly, due to the controversial and questionable nature of the encyclopaedic content within this article, I propose that a header bar be placed to avoid confusion. Azirus (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: What are the references which indicate Australian origins? This has been debated for a long time, but no such references have been provided.-gadfium 22:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Does the debate consider that different names were used at different times for different types of cakes? Does the debate also consider that all claims are mostly based on the Eton mess, an English recipe? Azirus (talk) 09:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text:  The idea that the pavlova dessert was created on a particular day, in a particular country, by one or more particular individuals, is a myth. As I have pointed out on this talk page, rather repetitively I'd have to admit, the first instance of a pavlova, by name, and somewhat resembling the modern concept of what a pavlova should be, was not really anything more that a large meringue cake renamed. This is an important point I'd have thought, but it doesn't get any play in the main article, which seems more interested on playing up rivalries between NZ and Aus as to which nation can claim the credit for creating the first pavlova. It might well be that NZ can claim honours as evidence suggests that renaming the large meringue cake as pavlova took off there a little before it did in Aus, but large meringue cakes by various names continued to exist alongside those called pavlova in both countries, for many years. It also seems that both countries borrowed from each other over the years as the pavlova recipe evolved to the modern standard we know today. I don't believe the Eton mess, though similar, was the origin of the pavlova cake in NZ and Aus. The evidence points to large meringue cakes, most likely recipes from Europe and the USA. Theodore D (talk) 23:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: there still seems to be an issue with this article's claim that addition of ingredient cornflour makes the difference between a pavlova and large meringue cake. This is plainly not so, as the first Edmonds recipe, from 1939, did not include cornflour. This recipe held its own in the Edmonds cookbook for some 40 odd more years. Theodore D (talk) 00:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: cornflour issue

message: In text of article it is stated "The nationality of its creator has been a source of argument between the two nations for many years, but formal research indicates New Zealand as the source". A reference is then given. As I happen to own a copy of the reference I looked through it, but alas, was unable to find any mention of the name of this original creator. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!Theodore D (talk) 00:17, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: name of the original creator?

message: That's the claim over at the Wikipedia article about the Flat White. But technically it could be said that the Flat White originated first in Oz, before being further developed in NZ. Which begs the question why a similar compromise has not been reached here. Clearly the pavlova was developed in both NZ and Oz. There is no evidence at all to support a single Kiwi creation. So what gives, Kiwi wikipediansTheodore D (talk) 05:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Still no response to my very reasonable question. I also note that the main article still perpetuates the myth that the addition of cornflour is what sets the pavlova apart from the large meringue cake. As I have noted in here, on more than one occasion, the fact that the first Edmonds recipe for pavlova did not include cornflour gives the lie to that claim. So my fellow Kiwi wikipedians, what gives? Is there no one brave enough to address any of the many valid points and queries I have raised, or are you all too scared?? Theodore D (talk) 22:55, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Scared? Do you have WP:RS for these statements? Wikipedia isn't interested in original research, you know. Your statement about the addition of cornflour being a latter innovation may be true, but it reads like WP:SYNTH. The few reliable sources we have suggest that the Pavlova is a Kiwi invention, that's really all there is to it. Grayfell (talk) 03:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What original research are you referring to? That the first Edmonds recipe did not include cornflour as an ingredient is FACT. Have you actually read any of these reliable sources? I doubt it, because none of them claim that the pavlova is a Kiwi invention. You can bluff and bluster as much as you like, but that will not change the fact that I am correct, and you are not. But if you do disagree, or are under the delusion that you have superior knowledge to me, then feel free to present it here. How about starting by quoting the reliabe source that proves the pavlova to be a Kiwi invention. Come on, surely one of you brave Kiwipedians are at least up to that challenge? Theodore D (talk) 05:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: First of all, I'm not from New Zealand. My concern is with keeping petty vandalism and edit-warring to a minimum. Second of all, There is already a reliable source saying that the Pavlova is from New Zealand. Third, cornflour is mentioned as part of its modern preparation. If some early recipes don't include that, it's hardly some sort of deal-breaking conspiracy. What exactly are you suggesting? Are you suggesting that the paragraph about cornflour should be removed? Grayfell (talk) 00:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Theodore, I asked you over two years ago what specifically you proposed, but got no answer. If you don't propose specific changes supported by specific WP:RS cites, then I can't see how there's any moving forward.Number36 (talk) 02:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

text: I've actually cobbled together some pretty good information above, if I do say so myself. Have any of you actually read it? My fear is that few, if any, actually possess the necessary understanding and knowledge of the intricacies involved to fully appreciate the significance of my previous pontifications. But let's get one thing out of the way. Please don't try and fob me off with any of this rubbish about reliable sources, original research, or synthesis of material. That really is a laughable tactic given the poor quality of the vast majority of scholarship on wikipedia, this article being no exception. Since my source is Prof Leach's book, we can safely assume that it is a reliable source. And unlike most in here, I've actually read the book. So when reference is made to this book, as is frequently done in the main article, would it be too much to ask that a page number be given, just to narrow things down a bit? That is the usual way sources are cited. I realise this may be a problem, since few here have read the book. In fact, I note from the history of the article, that before Prof Leach's book was quoted as the main reference, the Listener review of her book served that role. I suspect this is the reason for her book being cited as the source for a number of false and misleading claims in the article. Her book has simply been substituted in for the Listener review as a source. Given that the statement about cornflour is not sourced, I'd suggest it should be removed. It illustrates the fundamental misunderstanding regarding the origin of the pavlova. As Prof Leach has emphasized throughout her book, the pavlova evolved over time, from a large meringue cake, to the modern, idealised concept we now have as to what a pavlova should be. That is, crisp on the outside, with a soft marshmallow like centre. As the pavlova evolved over time, a consensus of opinion was reached that the inclusion of cornflour resulted in a better pavlova. The addition of cornflour may well enhance the marshmallow effect, but I've yet to see the chemistry behind this explained. Theodore D (talk) 03:58, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, -once again for clarity; what specific edit or edits to the article are you proposing. Be as specific as possible i.e. wording and changes, outlining what the edit is you think should be made, and provide a specific cite from a WP:RS to support it. Which is not 'fobbing off' at all. Arguing that poor quality exists elsewhere is not an argument to sidestep the requirement for proper sourcing, and as you say you have sources to support the changes you think should be made it shouldn't present a problem in any case. There's literally no moving forward on anything you raise if you don't actually propose a specific edit at any point, that's not an attempt to argue or a tactic of any sort, it's simply an objective and neutral fact. It's all well and good to say you've cobbled together information, but now what edit/s do you propose based on which parts of it? I have added a citation needed tag to the claim regarding the difference between the pavlova and a large meringue being the addition of cornflour.Number36 (talk) 05:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

text: Again, what specific edit or edits are you suggesting? Grayfell (talk) 01:11, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Flat White developed in both Oz and NZ

message: If the body of the article clearly outlines the uncertainty of the pavlova's national origin, giving the case for both a New Zealand and an Australian origin, why then does the infobox not match this? Giving 'Place of origin' as only Australia is not only unverified, but also doesn't match the content of the article. I suggest the infobox be changed so as to include both countries, or perhaps omit 'Place of origin,' as it is, at this stage, apparently unknown
2602:301:77C7:9200:7DBB:E211:7645:C007 (talk) 19:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears that you saw a version of the Infobox that had been incorrectly changed a few hours earlier. It's fixed now. HiLo48 (talk) 19:58, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  What it says in the Infobox is a lie, but it will not be changed no matter what the facts say. The pathologically dishonest kiwi Wikipedians will see to that!Theodore D (talk) 05:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What it says in the Infobox is supported by reliable sources, which is what Wikipedia requires. HiLo48 (talk) 07:03, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: No, actually it isn't. The source is very good and reliable, the problem is that it doesn't support what is said in the Infobox. I have outlined the details in previous comments above, if you'd care to study them.Theodore D (talk) 00:45, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: article here: http://www.goodfood.com.au/good-food/food-news/pavlova-research-reveals-desserts-shock-origins-20151010-gk5yv9.html
Maybe I'll try to update the article when I have time? Format (talk) 03:02, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No objection to your updating the article, but the link you give appears to be a copy of http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/72742788/pavlova-research-reveals-puddings-shock-origins, so please reference that source. Also, while there were numerous dishes named after the dancer prior to 1929, and the combination of meringue and cream has been around for a very long time, the source does not seem clear on whether any of the earlier desserts named pavlova were at all similar to the modern dish. Eg the 1911 recipe mentioned was a glacé type dessert.-gadfium 03:21, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've been telling you twats this for fucken ages, but you continually blanked me. But let's no get ahead of ourselves here. There is nothing new in this research. It has been already well established (Prof Leach's book) that the first large meringue cakes called pavlova (at least in Australasia) were merely existing recipes (either from Europe or USA) renamed pavlova from what they were originally called (Meringue Cake,Meringue Gateau,Meringue Cream Cake,Marshmallow cake). Indeed, Festival's pavlova cake from 1929, celebrated as the first known occasion (to date) of this being done, is not even a very good example. There existed known recipes at the time, which had they been renamed pavlova, would have been much closer to the modern concept of what we now consider pavlova. What happened, as large meringue cakes become popular in Australasia is that, over time, it become more and more common that a certain ideal was preferred, namely a large meringue cake with a soft centre, and crisp outer layer. At this time, pavlova and other large meringue cakes with different names existed together. By a process of selection, eventually, nearly all meringue cakes were made to the ideal of a soft centre and crisp outer. At the same time as this occurred, the name pavlova began to dominate. Until eventually, or such large meringue cakes were called pavlova, and they were all made to a certain ideal. I have outlined all of this, in more detail, earlier on the talk page, if anyone cared to read it.Theodore D (talk) 07:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  New history article 

message: An American icecream may have been named after Pavlova. However that is irrelevant to this article.Royalcourtier (talk) 03:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ice cream not relevant 

message: Should a new section be added to include specific details on the rivalry over the pavlova?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lochlan Hanham (talk • contribs) 12:40, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a bad idea. It may help to defuse the constant efforts towards changing that aspect of the article. HiLo48 (talk) 00:02, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

text: Only if the content is supported by reliable sources, and not original research. Stickee (talk) 23:29, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I mostly was trying to make a start to built on. Also is referencing internal (Wikipeadia) possible? L.H. (talk) 01:49, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Stickee (talk) 05:22, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add a section a dedicated section on the rivalry over the ownership of the pavlova? 

message: This edit does not conform to WP:NPOV. Please change "" to "" or "". Thank you. 70.162.235.236 (talk) 20:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Done I changed it back to argued --DannyS712 (talk) 07:36, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request, 13 March 2019 

message: Admins should never abuse the privilege to protect an article, such as, trigger permanent protection for first time offence without an community arbitration. It’s better to adopt the three-strike system (if two non-permanent protection were triggered, third time can be permanent). Please revert to, at least, pending changes, then wait and see for a while. Thank you. 1.152.107.150 (talk) 09:55, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: If you want the protection of this page to be changed, please make a request at WP:RPP; requests made here will not be considered. The multi-month history of vandalism on this page (in my opinion) justifies the protection. If you want to make a change to the general protection policy, you need to start a discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) or Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). With that said, since there is nothing wrong with the current policy, we are unlikely to consider your proposal.--Jasper Deng (talk) 10:14, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Protection removal 

message: Insert after fifth paragraph under heading "Origin and history":
By the early 1940s, home cooks in Australia were sharing a recipe for “Pavlova Cake” that is the recipe for what we now know as pavlova. In her handwritten recipe book, Hunter Valley woman Lydia Louisa Ling recorded a recipe for pavlova in October 1941.[17] The descriptive way she writes out the method indicates it’s something new for the time. She notes to “…turn off the gas when it is a deep creamy colour” and that it should be “… hard on the outside and like marshmallow inside”. She also describes leaving it in the oven to cool and filling the hollow with cream.
[17] Pavlova Recipe, originally recorded by hand in a small notebook and published on Cooking with Nana Ling recipe blog.
Also add to External links
•	Nana Ling’s 1941 Pavlova Recipe Libbyh1 (talk) 23:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: Blogs are self-published sources, and are not generally usable on Wikipedia. Please be mindful of editing with a conflict of interest, also. Grayfell (talk) 00:10, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2019 

message: Please change the text:
"Research conducted by New Zealander Dr Andrew Paul Wood and Australian Annabelle Utrecht found that the origins of the modern pavlova can be traced back to Germany, where it began life as a torte. It was later brought to America where it evolved into its final form."
to read as follows:
"Research conducted by New Zealander Dr. Andrew Paul Wood and Australian Annabelle Utrecht found that the origins of the modern pavlova can be traced back to modern-day Austria or Germany, where it began life as the dessert Spanische windtorte. It was later brought to America where it evolved into its final form. German immigrants to the United States first streamlined the Spanische windtorte into a more simply-constructed meringue, whipped cream, and fruit dessert called schaum torte ("foam cake" in German). The main distinguishing feature between schaum torte and pavlova is that pavlova contains corn starch and schaum torte does not." Draco847 (talk) 23:36, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Partly done: I've tried to expand this based on the source, which is all we can really do here. The cited source doesn't mention cornflour as a defining trait of the schaum torte, but I've tried to explain the gist of it without drifting into original research. Grayfell (talk) 00:50, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2020 

message: It's not a cake, should change page title  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.123.110.96 (talk) 12:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Pavlova (dessert) is a more appropriate name. A requested move is needed however. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 23:39, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Forgive my humor, i can't help but say: the cake is a lie! Профессор кислых щей (talk) 09:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  This isn't a cake 

message: Remove Maori translation from first line and "alternative names field".
The cake is not of Maori origin, and there is no Maori tie to the dish; it is European in origin and named after a Russian dancer. Compare with other New Zealand cuisine such as Cheese Roll and Lolly Cake.
Also given the controversy over the cake's origin, it would make even less sense to include a New Zealand specific language in the case that the cake originates from Australia. Elaborateshotput (talk) 14:15, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Done – Thjarkur (talk) 14:21, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2020 

message: Pavlova originally came from New Zealand 2407:7000:81E4:C600:E9FE:4C03:F37B:35B9 (talk) 23:29, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:43, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 9 November 2021 

message: Some cookes are trying to make pavlova in circular parametre. 136.158.59.116 (talk) 04:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  What diametre would be in pavlova? 

message: change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlova_(cake)#cite_note-24 to https://web.archive.org/web/20211109181354/https://edmondscooking.co.nz/recipes/desserts/pavlova/ RobDouglasNZ (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Lemonaka (talk) 02:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2022 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: moved. Overwhelming consensus to move the page. Schwede66 may want to look into creating it the primary topic in a seperate RM, as no discussion has yet taken place regarding it. (closed by non-admin page mover) echidnaLives - talk - edits 03:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Pavlova (cake) →  – Pavlova is a type of dessert that Australians and New Zealanders overwhelmingly do not consider a cake, though it's challenging to find formal sources for an odd negative like this. The best I'm coming across is informal comments polling and comment threads talking about Australians getting upset when pavlova is called a cake. Pavlova certainly falls into the category of schaum torte (foam cake) but as it is not considered as a cake in its home countries this page would better serve antipodeans as well as the rest of the world as "Pavlova (dessert)". 180.150.37.72 (talk) 01:46, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 26 December 2022 

message: I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's passionfruit pulp, not "lemon sauce" 124.168.179.114 (talk) 06:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's passionfruit lemon sauce, which is a combination of passionfruit pulp and lemon. All the major supermarkets sell it. —Panamitsu (talk) 06:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description of Pavlova picture