Talk:Early Islamic philosophy

message: *recognition that science and philosophy are both subordinate to morality, and that moral choices are prior to any investigation or concern with either.
I'm not sure if this would be an achievement or if rather this concept is the one which "closed the door on ijtihad". 
*Power "closed the door" in part through fear of new interpretations of laws that could disadvantage rulers.  It is certainly an "achievement" in that no prior society had done this so explicitly, and today we see that dangerous scientific advances have profound effects, e.g. weapon of mass destruction, and must necessarily be subordinate to morality, else we are all quite dead.
That and current day islamic type people have a differnt impression of ijtihad than the one I seem to be getting. Hmph.
*quite right, liberal movements within Islam prefer something like the old definition, whereas conservatives like the Ottoman concept of taqlid and keep calling it ijtihad or narrowing it.  Islam as a political movement is mostly a struggle around this question of how much ijtihad is allowed and who can do it and how far it can go.  For instance, can you use ijtihad to argue that homosexuality is OK based on various precedents found in the hadith ?  This is totally political obviously.  Like any movement there's conservative and reforming forces.
I'll ask around.
80.126.238.189 15:56, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Achievement?

message: The outstanding achievements of early Muslims are:
Doesn't that strike you as a bit condescending? A bit like how Alan Hansen talks about the African teams in the World Cup?
:Agreed. Anyone mind if I remove this?Sludgehaichoi 18:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Condescending bias?

message: 1. "the development of a method of open inquiry to disprove claims, the ijtihad, which could be generally applied to many types of questions (although which to apply it to is an ethical question)"; first, this guy is really stressing that ethics is first philosophy and I don't know how original that is to Islamic philosphy of the period (I am referring to the part of the quote that is in paranthesees, and to what I quote below).  Second, this description of ijtihad seems just plain false; this struck me as I read it and when I double checked (admittedly, quickly) the meaning of ijtihad (in wikipedia's own entry, and elsewhere), it bore out my suspicions -- ijtihad refers to a political philosophy countenancing the use of independent reason to make judicial decisions -- I am not sure the concept really has the place outside of political philosophy that the author suggests it does.  Maybe I'm just in error, but hopefully someone more expert will know.
2. "willingness to both accept and challenge authority within the same process" -- this statement is so sparse and unelaborated that it really means nothing and tells me nothing.  I need not only some examples but a more clear idea of what exactly is meant here or else that statement is essentially vacous.  I mean, in reading that quote, what did you learn ?  Anything ?  The same goes for this nealry vacuous, unelaborated statement "Early Muslim medicine and Early Muslim sociology in particular benefited from the Mutazilite approach, but it led to very strong reaction."  What was this 'very strong reaction', and what does that phrase even mean ?
3. Someone on wikipedia seems to be going to a lot of trouble to link Islam and science, as I've noticed some similar statements in many different entries.  Here, my concern is with the following, "Ijtihad had strong influences on the development of the modern scientific method, while isnad is indistinguishable in form from modern scientific citation."  FIRST OF ALL, these claims are very important and so really need citation.  
SECOND, 'indistinguishable' is WAY too strong -- in fact, I would say that the two are vastly different (isnad involves reliance on word of mouth, anectodal evidence gathered by dubious means that often leave an unverifiable product.  PLUS, isnad is not about coming to a new conclusion but rather about verifying authenticity of supposedly previously existing statements).  
THIRD, "Ijtihad had strong influences on the development of the modern scientific method" -- if this is gonna stay it will have to be spelled out far more clearly.  From what I know, there is a paucity of evidence suggesting that the islamic notion of ijtihad was well known at all in the circles in which and at the time during which the idea of a scientific method fomented.  Sources of influence should be provided explaining how ijtihad came to be known at the right times and places and the actual impact ijtihad had would need to be explained; I suspect (though I would love to be proven wrong -- if Islam did have an impact on the idea of the scientific method I'd love to know about it) that what I'm gonna get amounts to this --> ijtihad = dedication to reliance upon independent reasoning, scientif method = independent reasoning to form hypotheses, etc., thus, ijtihad is clearly a precursor of scientific method.  Of course, this argument is fallacious -- you can say that conceptually the two are, perhaps, related, that they express a similiar ethos, but you CANNOT conclude from this that there is any historical link between them, or that one flowed out of the other.
4. "During this period many remarkable achievements of engineering and social organization were made, and the ulama began to generate a fiqh based on taqlid ("emulation") rather than on the old ijtihad."  AGAIN, don't just say that there were achievements, spell it out a little more.  ALSO, I'm a little confused by "and the ulama began to generate a fiqh based on taqlid ("emulation") rather than on the old ijtihad" -- the whole article has been about how great ijtihad is and this last paragraph links its use to the greatness and peak of islamic civilization.  But, then, with "and the ulama began to generate a fiqh based on taqlid ("emulation") rather than on the old ijtihad.", it is suggested that the use of taqlid instead of ijitihad was the mark of the rise of Islamic civlization to its peak; taqlid and ijtihad are OPPPOSITES !
Mercmisfire 02:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  some dubious links suggested in this article 

message: There is also a high degree of anachronism. Al Farabi is accounted a sociologist, psychologist and cosmologist even though he lived centuries before these disciplines even existed. As for the detailed claims within the articles, it’s impossible to subject them to serious scrutiny in their entirety. All one can say is if Islamic thinkers really had invented the experimental method, clinical testing in medicine, peer review and evolution, it is very surprising that the scientific revolution actually happened in 17th-century Western Europe.J8079s (talk) 23:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  criticism  

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