Talk:Helmut Oberlander

message: Mr. Oberlander was known to me since childhood (late 1950s) in Canada. He has always impressed me as an honest, respectable and considerate individual. A man of faith and good nature and gentle demeanour. He certainly never impressed me as a man beset by demons of past wrong doing. It was with great surprise that I heard of his deportation from the United States and subsequent legal problems in trying maintain his Canadian citizenship. I find it remarkable that man who would face no similar problems were he to decide to live in Germany would fight so hard to remain in his adoptive land. I believe, from knowing him that this is because he feels a great attachment to the country and the community he has contributed so much to. 
When I heard about his problems I felt it might be instructive to find out how other contemporaries had conducted themselves during the war. One of those I read up on was Manechem Begin, who I thought was a young man during the war and later thrust onto the world stage by the events that flowed from the war. It was with some surprise that I found that he was much older than Mr. Oberlander. That he had been indoctrinated in Zionist philosophy from his formative years by a father who was committed to that cause (in contrast Mr. Oberlander's father was a country physician who died in his formative years during the Ukrainian famines of the mid thirties, and was apparently apolitical). I learned that Mr. Begin was active in Zionist youth movements from the time of his Bar Mitvah until his graduation from Law School. That he functioned as propandandist for the Betar Movement and that the aims of this movement were strangely aligned with National Socialist philosophy, except that it espoused the recreation of a Jewish racial identity and the reconquest of the biblical homelands by this reconstituted Jewish folk. His leadership of the the Czech Betar just prior to the invasion by Germany, then his leadership of the Polish Betar just prior to the invasion by Germany and his subsequent move to Lithuania and "arrest" by Soviet agents just prior to Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union and the subsequent release and movement to Isreal as a junior officer in the largely jewish Ander's army from Soviet territory with Stalin's blessing during the height of the German occupation of the Soviet Union, all suggested that he may have initially been a collaborator with both the Nazis and the Allies and that his betrayal of his former Nazi allies may have greatly contributed to motivation for Nazi retribution against Jews. Whether that is the case or not, I found it odd that the same groups who were so vehement in seeking retribution for the participation of conscripted youngsters like Mr. Oberlander were totally mute in critizing wartime leaders in the Jewish community who were likely to have contributed to this holocaust. 
I'm also extremely dissappointed by the North American Jewish community, who remain totally and unconditionally supportive of Isreali leaders and policies in occupation of the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza. I understand the historical perspective of this community and it's longing for a national state identity and the same national pride that others may feel for their racial identity expressed through a state embodying their ethnic, cultural and in this case religious identity. It is however exactly in this regard that I find their choice of Mr. Oberlander as an outlet for their outrage over past injustice against them, because Helmut enthusiastically embraces a multi-ethnic community preferring it to the option of returning to a country that would seem to provide exactly the kind of identity to which so many Jewish citizens in that same community aspire and direct their energies to creating. It's a very strange world in which such contradictions play out and where such lack of compassion is expressed by those who seek it most.
JimBetker 04:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think putting Oberlander in the Category "Nazi" is unjustified. Is every German WWII soldier considered a Nazi? He fought for his country when he was a young man, like so many others. This is just appalling.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.250.206 (talk) 09:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I tried to delete most of the opinionizing, including the "we think this," since "we" don't.  I tried to stick with facts, but didn't go to great lengths to fact-check.  I did visit the links -- they're all dead, but I didn't want to delete them unceremoniously.  Someone may be able to find archives.  It still needs lots of cleaning, but I'd need to know a lot more about the case before I could turn this into something readable.  But I hope I made a start.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.127.158 (talk) 06:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Much editing 

message: Most people in Canada really don't know how things used to be, what it was like living in the Soviet Union--especially as an ethnic-German.  I know people who do, and I know of stories about what used to be done to them, and what it was like when the German Army eventually showed up.  If you were a man of military age, did you really have a choice to join?  Noyou did not.  And if you could also speak Russian and Ukrainian, then if you were below the manditory age, you could still be enlisted for non-combat roles, as was the case here.  People should look at this case, and those of several other supposed "war criminals," and question how our government works; this is clearly a case of a certain group of people getting into a position of power where they can push their agenda.  Holding somebody responsible for something over 60 years after the fact, based on spurious "evidence," and without properly taking into consideration all of teh circumstances, is simply unjust.  This should not be happening in Canada.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.44.221 (talk) 19:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unjust 

message: These are the sources from the 3 June 2007 version of this article, can't understand why these were removed.
*"Helmut Oberlander no longer a citizen: Federal cabinet strips citizenship for second time in 12-year battle" http://www.therecord.com/home_page_front_story/home_page_front_story_1050499.html
*"Oberlander, Fast lose citizenship over hidden wartime activities" http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=e795be47-3009-45cd-8038-62f840c51585&k=4672
*"Passage of time has altered perspectives on war crimes" http://www.therecord.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=record/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1180758811573&call_pageid=1024322168441&col=1024322596091
- 220 of Borg 13:21, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately these references are all dead links! --220 of Borg 13:30, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Former Nazi could face loss of citizenship, deportation" from 2001/05/03 is a good link, with three more HERE. --220 of Borg 13:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Figuring out whether to include long-dead links that were never Wayback Machine'd is always a tough call.  Deleting a couple of the 2007-edition links was problematic since they refer to sources that could (if real), be verified in theory via paper copy.  OTOH, if there's anything suspicious about how they were added in the first place, that would be very concerning.  Where I've checked particular statements I've been generally pretty surprised by how much of this material has checked out.--j⚛e deckertalk 17:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "Ek 10a executed more than 40,000 people, most of whom were Jews" - Have the corresponding mass graves been found? --105.0.2.86 (talk) 12:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mass graves