Talk:Battle of Berlin (RAF campaign)

message: While Harris's own 'I was right' book, Bomber Command, does indeed say that the RAF's Battle of Berlin began in November 1943, his then deputy's history, Air Bombardment, reckons the three raids starting in August were the start: they totalled over 1,650 sorties, with 125 aircraft lost. 
Their results were generally poor, but had the first three raids been more successful, there probably would not have been a 'two moon' pause before the resumption... and you can bet Harris would have claimed them as the start. As it was, a fourth raid was planned but cancelled at the last moment because of the weather.
Even if you disagree with that date for the start of the campaign, in no sense was 22nd/23rd November the 'first' raid - the 440 Lancasters sent to Berlin on the 18th/19th may not have been an all-out raid - the Halifaxes and Sterlings were sent elsewhere that night - but it undoubtedly marked the (re)start of the battle.
If people want to have an argument about it, let's do it here. If no-one objects, I'll alter the day-by-day timetable in the main article to reflect these facts. Lovingboth 16:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am going to revert the changes. The battle started in November. Yes there were raids before then by they were not part of the battle (See for example this source: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/nov43.html Entry 18/19 November 1943 "The 'Battle of Berlin' begins"). Although sources may differ I think we should go with Harris which is the one which is used in most secondary sources and is I read also the one used in the official history. --PBS 18:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

text: My father was a gunner on a Halifax, shot down over Berlin, Sept 1 1943. 172.251.242.40 (talk) 17:27, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Start of the RAF's 'Battle of Berlin'

message: This was not a battle, this was generally a massmurder of civilians. one of a long list of british warcrimes in germany (it was not only dresden) during ww2.  --131.173.252.9 18:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't a discussion forum. --Nick Dowling 11:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Warcrime vs Battle

message: I am reverting the last change which added:
:Most of the fallen RAF airmen are buried in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery in Charlottenburg. Many of the graves contain the remains of a seven-man bomber crew
Because it is unsorced and it breaks into a pragraph which is sourced. If a source was provided then we could add it in an appropriate place. --PBS 16:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is Martin Middlebrook's book 'The Berlin Raids' (Cassell 2004) Did you aso revert my text on RAF losses on March 24th 1944? Those facts are accurate and can be verified in any reputable publication about the bomber war. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by  Gloucester (talk • contribs) 16:53, 21 April 2007  (UTC)
Any facts like you added are (of course) welcome, but read Wikipedia:Footnotes. But please not not insert them where you will distance currently cited information from its citation (and/or fasly imply that the facts you are adding are covered by the current citation). Which edit are you talking about ? -- PBS 15:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: War Graves Commission cemetery in Charlottenburg

message: Forgive me for asking, but you are aware that Berlin was also attacked from the East by the Red Army Air Force? Since the title says nothing about the RAF, I see no reason that the article can't be expanded to include all air combat above Berlin.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 13:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about the 'British bombing campaign on Berlin from November 1943 to March 1944' and not the earlier and later raids. I agree that there should be a Bombing of Berlin during World War II article, but this campaign was a discrete series of operations conducted by RAF bomber command, which is that the term 'Battle of Berlin' usually refers to when used to refer to air attacks. Nick Dowling (talk) 10:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There is another article "Bombing of Berlin in World War II" (I've just create a redirect from Bombing of Berlin during World War II) and the Soviet strategic bombing of Berlin is discussed on the talk page unfortunately to date no reliable sources have been found (see Talk:Bombing of Berlin in World War II#1941 Soviet bombing of Berlin). There is also no reason why the tactical bombing of Berlin during the Battle of Berlin should not be included as well. --PBS (talk) 10:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not just rename this article to reflect the contents?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it is know as the "Battle of Berlin" in reliable English language sources. --PBS (talk) 11:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Its known as Battle of Berlin (air)?! I have never seen that. Just call it Allied bombing of Berlin, which is far more often seen. Even RAF bombing of Berlin to be specific. Eventually there ill be enough material for a parent article of Bombing of Berlin with three main article of RAF, USAAF and Red Air Force--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's commonly known as the 'Battle of Berlin' or 'Battle for Berlin' - see, for instance Max Hastings' book 'Bomber Command' (which is one of the standard books on Bomber Command). The British mounted a deliberate and prolonged offensive against Berlin during the winter of 1943-44 which is normally considered in isolation from the other, more episodic, raids on Berlin throughout the war. Nick Dowling (talk) 12:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "(air)" is included because there is also the better known Soviet attack on the city that is also know as the Battle of Berlin, so it was necessary to use "(disambiguation)" as this is the less well known battle. Please read the article, it is not about all the RAF bombing of Berlin during WWII, but about a specific campaign and it involved lots of other targets as well as Berlin (for example the last raid of the battle was against Nuremberg on a night when the RAF lost more service men than they lost during the entire Battle of Britain ([page 117)). The name in the official RAF history (see the quote in the article) and has been used in other sources as well, a Google search of ["Battle of Berlin" November RAF] returns lots of pages. --PBS (talk) 12:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: End of week joke: does that mean that Germany has to rename München to Munich or Köln to Cologne once google renders more hits on Munich or Cologne? MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Battle of Berlin (air) 

message: What makes these men operational commanders of this battle?
*Ralph Cochrane
*Don Bennett
*Roderick Carr
-- PBS (talk) 15:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As I thought and said earlier; you're becoming a barrier to this articles progression...contesting everything and anything. Why do you think Shearer? Dapi89 (talk) 16:20, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it would help the development of the article if the question was answered without a personal attack. -- PBS (talk) 19:39, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Its an observation. And you are. Dapi89 (talk) 12:31, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Phillip, I'll add them when I'm ready to do so. It is disappointing you're opting to be difficult about everything. These people commanded the Groups and Jagdkorps/divisions that participated. Their units will appear on the orbat, so the aocs should follow. Dapi89 (talk) 20:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Being in command of an RAF group does not make you a commander of this battle, any more than being a commander of a division in a land army made a man a commander of the Battle of Berlin in 1945. The only people who should be listed as commanders of this battle are those who were in operational command of the opposing forces not their superiors who gave directives and not their juniors who followed their orders. To do anything else is misleading as it implies that they all made decisions about how and where the battle should be fought. -- PBS (talk) 12:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Operational commander 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Comment this article is specifically about the Battle of Berlin fought from November 1943 until March 1940, which included attacks on other cities as well the the primary target which was Berlin. There is another article about the general strategic bombardment of Berlin during World War II called Bombing of Berlin in World War II. -- PBS (talk) 19:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Another editor has acknowledged it could be confused with air operations during the 1945 battle. The fact that is hasn't been changed since 2004 (twice challenged) is completely irrelevant. Dapi89 (talk) 12:42, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Its explained like that: Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_a_single_page_move: Note: Nominators should usually not add a separate support !vote, as the nomination itself qualifies as a !vote. Nominators may, of course, make comments and otherwise participate in the discussion. If you feel the need to explicitly !vote (e.g. to add a personal observation that isn't part of the formal nomination rationale, or because you no longer agree with the nomination but it is already supported by other parties and can't really be retracted), do so with "as nominator", e.g.   --Staberinde (talk) 16:21, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

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replies: text: Original page seems to have disappeared in the course of site reorganization, but archived version supports the claimed battle honour.—Odysseus1479 23:40, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Tidied references and citations, added biblio details, isbn 13s etc. A few discrepancies to resolveKeith-264 (talk) 17:13, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  CE 

message: Background and Prelude imported from Battle of the Ruhr; more to add to cover gap between Ruhr and Berlin. Keith-264 (talk) 14:55, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed reference for the Chronology from Middlebrook and Everitt 1996 to 1985 as this is a paper edition so no ambiguity about page numbers. Keith-264 (talk) 17:25, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Greetings, there's a long way to go to get it to B class. I started adding detail to the chronology but realised that much of it should go in the Battle section so stopped. My original copy of Middlebrook and Everitt was a scan and the pages were all over the place so I sorted that out yesterday. The Background needs to incorporate Hamburg and the longer-range raids in late summer and autumn as the nights got longer and the German reply to Window, Tame Boar and new radar equipment. The quick relegation of the Stirling squadrons then the early Halifax marks at the start of the battle needs noting, followed by the other tactical moves and counter-moves during the campaign. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 07:47, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Expansion 

message: The word "FlaK," with a capital K, should be explained somewhere. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 05:08, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  FlaK