Talk:Transylvania/Archive 4

message: Is there a map of transylvania that can be used for this article?--Scott3 12:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map? 

message: I think every bit of Transylvania article should be discussed so that any missconceptions be cleared.
My goal in editing the below lead paragraph was to mention all significant stages of Transylvania. It was an independent state that was brought under authority of Kgdom of Hungary in ~1000. It was an autonomous province during Janos Hunyadi in ~1450. next an (autonomous?) province of kgdom of Hungary during Mathias Corvin. next a principality vassal to the Otoman Empire until 1600 when it was brought by Michael the brave under his authority. then regained independency, then brought under Habsburg authority, then under Austria-Hungary, then Romanians proclaimed union with Romania in 1918, then Treaty of Trianon ratified the union in 1920. 
Transylvania (Romanian: Ardeal or Transilvania; Hungarian: Erdély; German: Siebenbürgen (help·info)) is a historical region in the center of Romania. Transylvania was an independent Principality, and a Province of the Kingdom of Hungary and of the Habsburg Monarchy since Middle Ages, with a period of vassalage to the Ottoman Empire and a brief year under the authority of Wallachian ruler Michael the Brave until the end of World War I in 1918, when the Romanian National Party from Transylvania proclaimed union of Transylvania with Kingdom of Romania. The political union was ratified in the Treaty of Trianon in 1920.
if i wrote something that might be seen as NPOV, (i can say i am not the best in formulating things perfectly), please address the matter. If we discuss the misunderstandings and weaknesses of this article, it will clear things out Criztu 09:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All of these are clarified below in the article (and, btw, all years are as brief or as long, give or take a few days). The question of a local initiative in proclaiming the union is rendered moot by the fact that the Romanian government forcefully dissolved the assembly a couple of years later, did not respect its decision in toto, and relied on international treaties to confirm that Transylvania was more of a war conquest than a Wilsonian present. Dahn 10:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: my point is "listing all significant stages of Transylvania in the lead paragraph" (i understand lead paragraph is not lead section ok). if we dont list all significant stages of Transylvania, then there is room left for endless objections. I think that a brief chronology in the lead would be the least suspicious aproach on the Transylvania article. perhaps the lead paragraph should contain only the contemporary situation of Transyvlania, that of "historical province of Romania" and a brief chronology in the lead section ? Criztu 10:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We have listed all that is significant, without falling into any POV. I prefer "sins of ommission" to "sins of commission" in a lead paragraph. Dahn 10:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wikipedia:Lead section : The lead section should provide a clear and concise introduction to an article's topic, establishing context, and defining the terms. It should contain up to four paragraphs, depending on the length of the article, and should provide an overview, or executive summary, of the main points the article will make, summarizing the primary reasons the subject matter is interesting or notable, and including a mention of its notable controversies, if there are any. The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, should be written in a clear and accessible style, should be carefully sourced like the rest of the text, and should encourage the reader to want to read more. Criztu 11:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see nothing that would contradict my approach. In fact, focus on "concise overview of the article". Dahn 11:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Also: if the lead paragraph is supposed to be an overview and you interpret that to mean "all the facts that anyone might consider important", what the hell is the history section supposed to be when we both can see that there is a "main article" History of Transylvania?! Do we write everything down thrice? Also, I would like to point out that significance should not be established on a communal basis, but on a regional one: it doesn't matter much what was percieved as seminal by Romantic poets etc. for an ethnic community, but what was factually relevant for the region itself! Dahn 11:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am intending on a formulation like in Britannica about Transylvania Criztu 11:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No you hadn't. Read the text and notice why it is not at all like yours. (Clue: where is Mihai?) Dahn 12:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannica about Michael the Brave: "prince of Walachia, who briefly united much of the future national patrimony under his rule". Transylvania is the national patrimony of Romania. The word used is "united". this formulation i think should be provided also, but ofcourse, after reaching an agreement (if such agreement is possible) Criztu 12:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have asked you if you were able to read it in the introductory paragraph. Clue: otherwise, the info is present here as well. The history section also uses "united", which is, IMO, an overstatement (but MO need not pass in the text). Dahn 13:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was able to read about the union of Transylvania with Wallachia and Moldavia in the lead section of Michael the Brave article in Britannica. Criztu 14:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Zero relevance and sophistry. Dahn 17:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Britannica has expertise, u dont. u saying Britannica's "prince of Walachia, who briefly united much of the future national patrimony under his rule" i perceive as disregard of efforts to reach agreement Criztu 17:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How the hell is what Britannica states in an article about Mihai relevant to the article at hand? Let me also note that you are again reading what you want into Britannica, as well as reading what you want into what I have said: me and Britannica do not disagree, especially since the statement itself is rather vague. Plus, read again where I have said "but MO need not pass in the text". For factual info, note that Wallachia was ruled by Mihai's son, and also that Mihai did not annex any territory (in fact, most sources will agree, even if grudgingly, that he was acting as Habsburg governor of Transylvania in his own view). Dahn 20:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am open to reaching a NPOV formulation to how Michael the Brave united/brought together Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia. my point is his act of uniting the 3 principalities in a single state has to be reflected in the lead section of Transylvania article. Criztu 20:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, Britannica sure doesn't seem to care! Weren't you using that as your template? Dahn 21:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transylvania lead paragraph 

message: "Another traditional division is the Hungarian (and Austro-Hungarian) administrative system" - this is NPOV
Tradition - 1.) A meme; custom or practice taught by one generation to another, often orally 
I think traditional hungarian "divisions" would be "mezoseg, szekelyfold, nosnerland etc.". Since Administrative divisions of Hungary are something that imply "a state authority" (just like Counties of Romania are divisions of Romania) these "administrative divisions" belong the history paragraphs. where Hungary exercised authority over Transylvania, link to Administrative divisions of Hungary is provided. where Romania exercised authoriy over Transylvania, link to Counties of Romania is provided. You dont see romanians rushing to put a text in the lead "traditional divisions of Transilvania see Counties of Romania". i understand a hungarian editor may be suspicious about the intentions of a romanian editor of Transylvania. I hope u will understand that providing information about "administration of Hungary" in the lead paragraph would consequently motivate romanians to put information about "administration of ROmania" in the lead paragraph, and the lead paragraph soon becomes an article itself Criztu 09:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. It is not "in the lead paragraph". 2. The main difference between it and the Romanian administrative system is that the former had a traceable history to the times when Transylvania was independent (thus, it pertains to Transylvania in a traditional manner). Say what you want about the Romanian system, but reference to it as "traditional" would be revertible on sight. Dahn 09:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: but there are romanians and hungarians and other nation in Transylvania. saying "another traditional division of Transylvania are the administrative divisions of kgdom of Hungary" would imply "people of Transylvania refer to its regions with the names of administrative divisions of Hungary" when this apply only for Hungarians in Transylvania. perhaps a formulation "Hungarians living in Transylvania traditionaly refer to the regions of Transylvania also with the names of the administrative divisions of the kgdom of Hungary" would be more exact. I am sure these counties of kgdom of Hungary are not traditions of the romanians in Transylvania. Criztu 10:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again: I was stating that these counties existed and took historical precedence over the Romanian ones. Dahn 10:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Transylvania has not a single Tradition. if there is a Hungarian Tradition, then it has to be stated clearly that that is a Hungarian Tradition, if requested. I request it Criztu 11:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Transylvania as a state and region has a single tradition: its tradition as a state and region. Surely, that would tend to be Hungarian more than Romanian, and German more than Romanian but less than Hungarian etc. etc. Nothing ethnic about it: Transylvania was a region before Romania even came to be. As such, its divisions are and were those (especially since there are no competing "Romanian" ones: do you know of a parallel Romania adminstrative structure? do you know of any literate Romanians who were not aware of what capital their respective county had?). Hell, even Romanian sources make reference to traditional Transylvanian counties! Dahn 11:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: a tradition is a "custom or practice taught by one generation to another, often orally. since there are many nations and groups of populations in Transylvania, there are many traditions, so i request you be specific to traditions of hungarians and not present them as the traditions of Transylvania Criztu 11:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is absurd. Especially since your take on tradition could not at all be including such a domain as regions. Transylvania has a tradition as a political entity: that is not equivalent to folk traditions and the like. A state is one, a province is one - no matter how many cultures it may have, they do not create parallel administrative systems. Dahn 12:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: my point is Traditions are mainly associated with population, a culture of a population. we could say that a political class has a tradition, we can extend it to states/provinces having a tradition. But, Transylvania has many populations, many culture, has no political class since it is not a state/province. I am perfectly aware of Transylvania having today many cultures and nations, but I object to treating Transylvania as having today a political culture or a political tradition. a connection between Transylvania and Hungary should be provided in the leading section, but, I object to formulations like "Transylvania has a (or another) traditional division (see counties of Hungary) or is divided traditionaly (see counties of Hungary)". I have no objection to "Transylvania has been part of Hungary (see counties of Hungary)" Criztu 13:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Were do you see the implication that "today, Transylvania is divided along such lines". For Chrissake, the term "traditional" establishes precisely that that is not the case! It is otherwise bewilderlingly false to imply that those administrative divisions do not carry the same historical weight as, say, Nösnerland. Transylvania does have a tradition, whether or not this is the basis for modern realities. We are talking about hundreds of years of history, which are relevant in themselves. This is not even about the usual thought police of Romanian nationalism, the one pretending that Transylvania was never a political construct: the mention only establishes things of major interest to the reader ("Transylvania was divided by the vast majotrity of its administrators along this lines"). Let us not forget that, unlike that pattern, Transylvania in Romania has went to four or five radically different administrative reforms! Dahn 13:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i have no objection to "Transylvania was divided by the the kingdom of Hungary along this lines", i object to "vast majority of administrators". i think tradition implies something that is alive, in use. administrative divisions of kingdom of hungary were, in the past; they are not in use today, they are not "handover to the today generation of political class of Transylvania" to qualify as a political tradition, since today there is no political entity TransylvaniaCriztu 14:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not, but this article deals with what was a political entity. The article makes it as clear as possible that Transylvania is not a division of Romania. Hence, all tradition is in the past. Stating that "today there is no political entity Transylvania" is absurd: all references to it being so (which, again, is an integral part of this article) also refer to tradition. In other words: accepted or not in Romania's legal system, that is Transylvania's tradition. If it is not a political entity today, it does not mean that it was not, and that the counties comprising it were not granted legal status by the vast majority of its administrators (Kings of Hungary, local princes, Habsburgs). I frankly cannot see any room for spin here - nobody could imply that it is the case today, just as nobody could deny that Transylvania's administrative tradition does not reside with the Romanian state (that would be absolutely nonsensical). Dahn 14:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: the article states it from the first line that Transylvania is a historical region of Romania. if one continues with "another traditional division of Transylvania is the hungarian admin system then u have a dispute in the lead section. i do not object on providing info about how Transylvania was administrated by kgdom of Hungary, i object to such weasel term formulations Criztu 15:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you do not. Because the only status Transylvania has in Romania is that of informal region (cultural reference). As such, mentioning that the traditional administration was centered on Hungarian Kingdom counties is by no means contradictory. There is no goddamn "weasel term" in there. Dahn 15:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: administrative divisions of Hungary is a tradition of Hungary. as soon as Transylvania exits the authority of Hungary and enters Otoman/Habsburg/ROmanian authority, administrative divisions of Romania are in use, but they remain traditions of Otoman/Habsburg/ROmania. I dont see a territory as having a tradition, but I see a state/population having a tradition. Criztu 15:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You do not seem to get that these counties were in use by all suzerain powers, and not just Hungary (as all inside the Kingdom were to be eventually). Ottoman sovereignty has even less relevance for the topic of local administration than it has in Wallachia or Moldavia. Dahn 16:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: from my information, the administrative divisions of Hungary changed throughout the time, i will accumulate more info on that. However, they are "traditional administrative divisions of Hungary". Criztu 16:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh yeah? How and when? Dahn 16:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: point is they are a "tradition of the hungarian state" Criztu 16:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And of independent Transylvania, and of the Habsburgs, and of the Ottomans if need be. That's a point for you. Dahn 16:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  traditional division of Transylvania 

message: the below text is from Britannica concise. I use Britannica as an expert guide, recognised by Wikipedia. Criztu 11:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm. If you use that as guideline, you will have to remove more of your additions than mine. If this is about the way the union was carried out, I have to point out that Britannica is inaccurate and rather casual in presenting the facts. Dahn 11:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not saying I am an expert, so yes, i may formulate things less perfect. thats why i use Britannica as a guide. you Dahn are not an expert either, so i wont use you as a guideline Criztu 11:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I must stutter or something: I have given you facts, and told you why the Britannica is wrong in one instance (it is ignoring succession of facts), while pointing out that it has more to contradict in your interventions oin the trext than mine. Dahn 11:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see Transylvania as a former principality and a province of Kgdom of Hungary and Habsburg Empire. I dont see Transylvania as the core of Dacia for example. u may see things differently. In the lead paragraph i am trying to point the events that had significance at their time, and the events that are significant now.Criztu 13:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Again: instead of making this communal, we could notice that we are referring to a region. Regardless of "patrimonies", some things were dead relevant to the region itself. Mentioned briefly, they avoid both confusion and casual, well, lie (again: the union was "proclaimed", but this is not the factual source of the union - as Mr. Maniu himself pointed out). Dahn 13:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Transylvania is a historic region, Transylvania was Province and Principality. If u have details on what exactly united Transylvania with Romania, then point them out. There was a union of Transylvania with ROmania, u propose a formulation on how this Union should be presented in the Lead Section, if u are not satisfied with my formulation Criztu 13:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "was awarded to the Kingdom of Romania by the Treaty of Trianon (1920)". Simple, correct, and undisputable. Dahn 14:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I have detailed the exact situation at Romanian National Party and Peasants' Party (Romania). There is also some information on Iuliu Maniu, Ion I. C. Brătianu, Alexandru Vaida-Voevod, and Alexandru Averescu (the former is unsourced, because I got lazy, but the sources are the same as for the other three). Dahn 14:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If Britannica would have used the term "awarded" i would have had double thoughts. since you cant claim u have more expertise than Britannica, i will go with "united". If u present a quote of the Treaty of Triannon where it is written "present treaty awards Transylvania to ROmania" then i will go with the text from Treaty of Triannon Criztu 14:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You will of course note that a treaty does not "unite" - it confirms, gives, cedes, or, in this case, awards. The factual connection between the Alba Iulia proclamation and the Treaty is paralogical (not sophistical, just paralogical). Also note that the Britannica does not clarify the relation between the two (prolly because it does not need to, since it is not an "encyclopedia to which anyone can contribute"). Lastly: note the term Britannica uses for what happened in 1947 - "CEDED", which is more questionable than "awarded", but in fact reflects the very same process. Dahn 14:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, in 1947 north Transylvania was CEDED to Romania. i have no objection to that. u should read the Treaty of Triannon and if u dont find a formulation "Transylvania is given/ceded/awarded to ROmania" then i will go with Britannica formulation. check Political union Criztu 14:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does it say, pray tell? "The frontiers of Hungary shall be fixed as follows". FIXED. As in: "this is a decision that we take" [note: of course, "we" means the winning powers in WWI, including Romania]. Dahn 14:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: so there is no award/given/ceded. check Political union Criztu 15:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you mean: "A political union is a type of state which is composed of smaller states"?! What the hell are you on about?! How do you figure this applies here, my friend? And how is "fixed", used by a congress of political powers in Romania's presence not the same as "awarded"?! Dahn 15:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm, yes, wikipedia doesnt quite explain what is a Union. political union might be interpretated in this Transylvania united with Romania; better english word Unification (disambiguation). could u explain what do u understand by, and how "Transylvania was awarded to ROmania"? Award An award is something given to a person or group of people.  Criztu 15:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, then, why don't we ask you to explain international law to all of us? You seem to know a lot about what "might be interpreted" (albeit whimsically so). As for the rest: An award is something given to a person or group of people - precisely. I fail to see what pedigree that would ruin - it is factual (more factual than the "ceded" used for the 1947 Treaty). Dahn 15:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: if u cant quote Treaty of Trianon stating "Transylvania awarded to Romania" then i can object indefinately. i have no objection to the formulation "Transylvania united with Romania" used by Britannica Criztu 15:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting spin. Note the succesion and relevance of facts, and stop misquoting and mindreading Britannica editors. Transylvania plus ultra was factually awarded to Romania in 1920 - the article makes it clear that the region itself was not "symbolically", but factually awarded (as should be made clear by the fact that the last borders of Transylvania no longer coincided with the western Romanian border). This is to say that all of Transylvania was blended into Romania - as you have noted is the custom with centralist Romanian administration (in blatant contradiction with the Alba Iulia resolutions). Dahn 15:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: lol. "the Romanians of Transylvania proclaimed the land united with Romania" is the formulation of Britannica, this is what i intend on using. unless u quote from Trianon i will object indefinately to formulation "Transylvania was awarded" Criztu 15:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Will you not understand the simple fact that this had no legal basis in hell? I like Maniu and the rest better than Brătianu myself, but that does not mean that Brătianu did not win the day at Trianon and after. Did you know that the National Party was negotiating a revision of Trianon in the late 1920s? Stop playing with facts! I have quoted from Trianon: "the borders are fixed as such". That was a conference of the winning powers in goddamn WW1, and Hungary was a defeated country. "Being awarded" was surely not a problem for the Romanian gvt., so let's not invent it in retrospect. Dahn 15:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: as u said, Trianon fixed borders of Hungary. there is no mention of "Transylvania awarded". I think it would be most reasonable to use the formulation of Britannica, so that no one can accuse nobody of any POV Criztu 16:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is absurd! Transylvania had existed within those borders, and was at the moment governed as a region by the Directory Council, which Romania refused to recognize. This is like telling me that I cannot say that "Transylvania enjoys a higher standard of living than the rest of Romania", and have to use instead Alba, Arad, Bihor, Bistriţa-Năsăud, Braşov, Caraş-Severin, Cluj, Covasna, Harghita, Hunedoara, Maramureş, Mureş, Sălaj, Satu Mare, Sibiu, and Timiş! For Chrissake, that was the case: the territory, comprising for the most the former polity, was awarded de facto to Romania. Dahn 16:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: lets use the formulation from either Britannica or Treaty of Trianon, Versailes and other Treaties that settled the legal status of Transylvania Criztu 16:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: can u point to where is it written "Hungary cedes/gives/renounces/awards/etc parts of its teritory to Allieds and Associates" ? i can understand u dont understand these legal treaties as u lack expertise, i dont understand why dont u understand that Britannica is a compromise that neither me, or other romanian i think, will consider POV. Criztu 16:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure I can point it out. It is right here: "Hungary renounces, so far as she is concerned, in favour of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers all rights and title over the territories which previously belonged to the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and which, being situated outside the new frontiers of Hungary as described in Article 27, Part II (Frontiers of Hungary), have not at present been otherwise disposed of." May I also point out who definite factor of decision is? Here: "settlement made by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers". "Say, who made the settlement?" "Why, the Principal Allied and Associated Powers did". Dahn 17:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: "neither me, or other romanian i think, will consider POV" This is borderline amusing. No Romanian? What am I, then - chopped liver? And how is a statement "less POV" if it is likened by Romanians and only Romanians? Dahn 17:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i understand this discussion my have tired u. what this treaty says is "Hungary renounces(that means, Hungary doesnt claims) the rights and titles of the Austria-Hungary (which was a defunct legal entity), in favour (that means Hungary doesnt express claims over them) of Allies and Associates (that means ROmania among others). that means, Allied and Associates have the legal right over Austria-Hungary as far as Hungary is concerned. that means, Hungary is not a successor of Austria-Hungary in that matter. that means, Hungary recognises the right of kingdom of Romania(as associated power) over rights and titles of Austria-Hungary". check Allies of World War I Criztu 17:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That just makes no sense. You forget that Hungary had decalred its independence in extended borders around 1917. Dahn 17:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: then why did Hungary renounced to the rights and titles of Austro-Hungarian Monarchy in favour of Allies and Associates in 1920 ? and what legal Treaty recognized the rights of Hungary over the rights of Austria-Hungary in 1917 ? Criztu 17:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Simple. Although the treaty itself considered it a sovereign nation, it did not sanction its sovereignty over all territories of St. Stephen's Crown (which were part of a very obvious Hungarian half of Austria-Hungary, not just "of Austria-Hungary") - comparable to the USSR recognizing Romania, but not Greater Romania. Now, are we just about done here? Dahn 19:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose either formulating the lead section the way Britannica formulates it, either coming to an agreemant that would reflect the romanian view of what is relevant about Transylvania. I am not editing Transylvania lead section yet, hoping for an agreement. If u express no intention in reaching an agreement or using the Britannica formulation, then it is survey, mediation, arbitration. it will take some time i think, but as the lead section looks now, i will have to object to it Criztu 20:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So, let me see: you propose either a version that does not contain "the romanian view of what is relevant about Transylvania" (I will not comment further on the narrowness and absurdity of the quoted statement) and contains an inaccuracy or a version that you came up with which "would reflect" that? And you imply that what you support in front of, the way it looks now, all contributors other than you, is a "cause for mediation"? You admit that you do not have any sort of expertise, meet with some topics for the first time in your life, and imply that you're still right for not dealing with them at all? You formulate half of all your answers in accordance with what unsanctioned you and you only read into them, and tell me that we ought to include that in an article? You tell me that Mihai's entry into Alba Iulia is the most important moment in Transylvanian history, dismiss a reference to the counties which made up Transylvania for most of its history as (paraphrase) "Hungarian stuff", and then you actually expect anyone to believe that you are into NPOV? You imply that the very same information should be included no less than three times in Transylvania articles, then you invoke wikipedia guidelines? And, after all of this, you expect people to actually take into consideration what you "have to object to", without being able to present a single valid reason as to why "your objection" is not strictly synonymous with "your POV"?! Am I to understand that replying to you is simply wasting my time? Dahn 20:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am asking for mention of the Unification of Transylvania with Wallachia in Moldavia by Michael the Brave in the lead section. I am asking for mention of Proclamation of Unification of Transylvania with kgdom of Romania in 1918, and i am asking to avoid a formulation that presenting Transylvania as a present day legal entity having an administrative tradition that belonged to kgdom of Hungary. Criztu 21:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: First request: you are asking, and you yourself cannot point out why. Second request: that has no true relevance to soverignty, and is obscuring an important decision taken two yeras later (one which did have relevance to soverignty). Third request: you would only make sense if anyone would have implied that Transylvania is a legal entity. Repeating the same sentences will not make you sound more informed or correct, and you have not clarified why your indifferent and uninformed oppinion should be a guideline for the text. Dahn 21:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: first request: Michael the Brave united Transylvania with Wallachia and Romania in 1600, that is a fact stated by both romanian history and Britannica. It expressed the will of Romanian politic class to unite Transylvania Wallachia and Moldova in a single state. second request: currently, Transilvania is a historical region of Romania. before being a historical region of Romania, Transilvania had a different status. the moment when Transylvania ceased to have a status other than historical region of Romania, becomes relevant to the lead section. That moment is identified by romanian history and Britannica as the Proclamation of Alba Iulia 1918. I wouldnt object if mention to treaty of Trianon is provided, Trianon having the relevance "Hungary legaly recognises Transylvania as a teritory of Romania". Trianon didnt "award/cede/give" Transylvania to nobody. The legitimicy of Transylvania becoming part of Romania is settled in other Treaties. third request: if Transylvania is no political entity today, then it has no political tradition. administrative divisions of kgdom of Hungary are tradition of Hungary. Criztu 11:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: first request: Michael the Brave united Transylvania with Wallachia and Romania in 1600, that is a fact stated by both romanian history and Britannica. It expressed the will of Romanian politic class to unite Transylvania Wallachia and Moldova in a single state. second request: currently, Transilvania is a historical region of Romania. before being a historical region of Romania, Transilvania had a different status. the moment when Transylvania ceased to have a status other than historical region of Romania, becomes relevant to the lead section. That moment is identified by romanian history and Britannica as the Proclamation of Alba Iulia 1918. I wouldnt object if mention to treaty of Trianon is provided, Trianon having the relevance "Hungary legaly recognises Transylvania as a teritory of Romania". Trianon didnt "award/cede/give" Transylvania to nobody. third request: if Transylvania is no political entity today, then it has no political tradition. administrative divisions of kgdom of Hungary are tradition of Hungary. Criztu 11:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: first request:stop playing games - Britannica mentions that somewhere else (have the curtesy of looking not only through other, specific, articles, but also in this one and the adjacent History of Transylvania, and you'll see the info present and dealt with). The statement "It expressed the will of Romanian politic class to unite Transylvania Wallachia and Moldova in a single state" is irrational Romanian POV - an interpretation that stretches reality and disreagrads facts aknowledged by all; it is, at best, dismissable. Also note that Britannica does not sate anything remotely similar to that phrase. second request:again, Transylvania was not incorporated into Romania after the Alba Iulia Assembly. Quit switching your position around, and note at least that all this is already addressed in the article. Trianon didnt "award/cede/give" Transylvania to nobody - before I advise you to return to studying English grammar, I have to point out that this is strictly your POV interpretation of the Trianon text, as can be seen from what we have already debated; unless you can add anything here, your alleged point is moot. third request:Transylvania was a political entity, and as such has a tradition (logical point: it had its own administrative divisions back when it was a legal entity - since being a legal entity was part of its tradition, that division is indeed traditional itself; if we contrast it with the Romanian counties, which may or may not reflect the Hungarian system, the latter cannot possibly be traditional). The divisions are not just associated with the Kingdom of Hungary, and you well know it. Dahn 11:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: 1.) I consider relevant for the lead section of Transylvania the mention "Michael the Brave united Transylvania with Wallachia and Moldavia in 1600". That is a fact, and its relevance in the lead section is reflected today in Transylvania's status as part of Romania alongside Wallachia and part of Moldova. (i leave it to you to argument how is this irrational romanian POV) 2.)Allied Powers recognised Transylvania as part of Romania since the moment Romania entered WW1 in 1916. Romanians from Transylvania took control of Transylvania in 1918. Hungary renounced the rights and titles of the defunct Austro-Hungarian Monarchy in favour of Romania in 1920. these are facts. 3.) Transylvania is a historical region of Romania. it has many nations, many cultures, many traditions. It has no "traditional" administrative divisions because it is not a legal entity. it had administrative divisions when it was a legal entity. Criztu 12:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 1) While the term to use may actually be closer to "collected" than it is to "united" (no single administration for Chrissake! no new sovereignty, since he was a vassal of Rudolph! a minor episode of the Habsburg-Ottoman War, that cannot be singled out in the lead, as no source other than Romanian will!), that is besides the point. A mention of Mihai in the lead for the sake of mentioning Mihai in the lead would call for a review of much more important moments: Transylvania in the Thirty Years' War, Transylvania in the Great Turkish War etc., as moments not "important for Hungarians", but "relevant for the goddamn region this article is about" - getting into all that info is already done on this very page, and much better than a lead possibly could. For all those interested into further details, there are several articles explaining even further. The information about the union is not necessarily biased, it is highly irreleavnt in that succint a context; the "information" about "what it meant for the Romanian politic[al] class" is POV run amok for reasons as obvious as the fact that you seem to be unable to properly spell "romanian" as "Romanian" (it stands for "an unspecified someone's belief" and is of no goddamn importance in defining the historical relevance of the events for anything other than the more provincial part of Romania). 2) It should be obvious to you that Romania had kinda lost the war in-between. Romanians "took control" of Transylvania only to lose it to Romania's military occupation, the effects of which were granted legal recognition at Trianon (after Romania did a little raiding through Hungary); the Council did not have legal status in either Hungary or Romania, so its mention belongs in the history section. Trianon not only settled the inclusion of Transylvania, it also settled the Aliies' attitude towards Romania ("a defeated state? an unlucky Ally? those guys that were engaged in banditry in Budapest when no one had asked them to "stomp Bolshevism"?... wait... we'll call those guys "Associates"). Saying that "Romania had been recognized rule over Transylvania in 1916" is newspeak: on the one hand, it is like saying that "Denmark had been recognized rule over South Jutland County in 1914"; on the other, you fail to note that the post-WWI border was not fixed on the Tisza. 3) For the 14th time, Transylvania has an administrative tradition. You are contradicting yourself hen you cite "it being [whatever] to Romania", because Transylvania has no status in Romania. The relevance of past regions to a past state is obvious, and it is also obviously readable in the article that Transylvania is no longer a legal entity. So, your "concerns" make no sense. Dahn 12:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: 1.) i think you dispute the meaning of the word unite 2.) Transylvania united with Romania is a legal thing, settled by Treaty of Versailles. Treaty of Trianon settled the borders of Hungary. i am not diving into "Romania raided Hungary or Hungary raided ROmania" discussions here. 3.) Hungarian political class has a tradition of dividing teritories under its authority acording to a Hungarian system. Transylvania is currently a historic region of Romania, has no administrative status, and is not divided according to any traditional division system. I request clear statement that "administrative divisions of kingdom of Hungary" are not a thing of the present, and refer to Transylvania as a Principality or a Province. Criztu 14:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 1. Are we talking about the Kool & the Gang album? Seriously, that link leads nowhere! 2. Disregarding the fact that that would be your spin, I have to point out that what you would get in that event is "the Treaty of Versailles awarded Transylvania to Romania", and nothing concrete about the Directory Council (again, check your comments for relevance). 3. "Transylvania is currently a historic region of Romania" makes no sense as a statement. If its traditional status was thatr of a politcal entity, then its administrative units are part of that tradition. The dominating tone of Transylvania's description is in the past, and this article clearly establishes that the region is not a province or a state at the present moment (again, check your comments for relevance). Dahn 19:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Britannica 

message: I guess a tag Disputed should be put to the article until we come to an agreement Criztu 11:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please point out one disputed fact that I have dropped in the text. Dahn 11:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: are we going to dispute over the DisputeTag ? lol Criztu 12:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, is there any reason for it to be there? Answer to the point. Dahn 13:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i hope we come to an agreement, as it is now, the lead section is disputable Criztu 13:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have asked you what is disputable about it. Dahn 13:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am asking u what is disputable about "Michael the Brave brought Transylvania under his authority in 1600" and "Transylvania united with romania through the proclamaition of 1918 ratified in the Treaty of Triannon 1920" in the lead section ? are u disputing the factual accuracy of these sentences ? cuz u are the one who removed them Criztu 13:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dispute their relevance to the lead section (for the former, Britannica seems to agree with me). For the latter, I also dispute factual accuracy: the Treaty of Trianon ratified the union, not the Alba Iulia gathering. The latter was not allowed to have legal basis by the Romanian government. Dahn 14:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: U cant dispute that Romanians proclaimed union at Alba Iulia 1918. I cant dispute Treaty of Trianon in 1920 made the situation legal. we can also add that between 1918 and 1920 Romania and Hungary fought over Transylvania, now i see i forgot to put that in the lead section Criztu 14:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As Mrs. Brătianu and Averescu intended, as king Ferdinand backed their attitudes, connecting Alba Iulia to Trianon is pure fallacy. If the top section does not aim to be casually disputable, confine such terms to the history section and the immense "History of " article. Dahn 14:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: u can not dispute the factual accuracy of "romanians from Transylvania proclaimed union with Romania - alba iulia 1918", i can not dispute "Trianon recognized Union of ROmania and Transylvania in 1920". i have no intention in keeping them connected if u dont see a connection between them Criztu 14:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the first lines should be a review of soverignties: Romanian sovereignty began in 1920 (not early 1919). Furthermore, the Treaty of Trianon does not seem to make any reference to Transylvania as such (unlike the Alba Iulia gathering), but to the specific new borders of Romania - as Brătianu intended it, not as Maniu and the others did. Can you see my point? Dahn 15:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: u are objecting to information presented in Britannica. since Britannica chosen Union, do u think we have to dispute weather awarded would fit better ? noone awarded Transylvania to Romania, since in 1920 Transylvania was under Romanian authority. Criztu 15:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Britannica says "the Romanians of Transylvania proclaimed the land united with Romania" - I have pointed out why this is of no relevance to the sovereignty itself. The treaty awarded - it did not "recognize", since the Alba Iulia gesture was ignored by the Romanian gvt. itself, and since the text of the treaty mentions new borders being awarded to Romania by the winning states, and not Transylvanian decision. Check your comments for relevance. Dahn 15:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can as well say Trianon doesnt say anything about Transylvania, so u cannot say "Trianon awarded Transylvania to Romania". As for Romanian kgdom, since there was a coronation of Alba Iulia couple years later, that would be enough to see the importance of Michael the Brave at Alba Iulia in 1600 and of the Proclamation of Alba Iulia 1918   Criztu 15:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All of that is just absurd. Instead of arguing symbolics and pretense, we could stick to the relevant. Btw, the Alba Iulia politicians were outraged by the coronation, for the precise reasons which you advocate. Dahn 15:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Michael the Brave entered Alba Iulia 1600. the relevancy of its act is mirrored in the Proclamation of Alba Iulia 1918. the relevancy of both Michael and Proclamation are strengthen by Coronation of Alba Iulia 1922. further strengthtening of the relevancy of Michael and Proclamation is ROmania national celebrated at Alba Iulia. this is most relevant to the article Transylvania Criztu 15:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm just about done arguing reason here. "this is most relevant to the article Transylvania" is just bewilderingly Romantic POV. Dahn 15:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I intend on using the formulation Britannica uses in the lead section of its Transylvania article as a NPOV formulation Criztu 15:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you don't. You want to use it as a template for your POV. You want to add references about Mihai, you want to imply what "the most important facts are", and you want to misquote and take out of its rather casual context the statement about local decision for the union (in the latter case, a simple forray into the facts themselves will show you why Britannica does not make any sense). Dahn 15:55, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I intend on using Britannica as an expert guide. I understand u may not agree with information about Michael the Brave that i want to add, that is why i am proposing to stick with Britannica formulation that i quoted in this talkpage as a NPOV lead paragraph.  Criztu 16:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But it is either factually wrong or simply idiotic. The Alba Iulia gathering has had no legal consequence! Dahn 16:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I believe it is common knowledge and beyond any possible POV that the Romanian government dissolved the Directory Council. That is the legal state of facts. Say what you will about my expertise, but it seems to surpass yours. You attacked the text on self-contradictory grounds, and are sticking by a caption of text which is at best obscure. The Treaty was, obviously, the ultimate legal result. What you would have to prove is that it mentions and sanctions the Directory Council - it does neither, since Brătianu just up and took the region. From a legal point of view, Transylvania as a political entity ceased to exist at that moment - it was partly revived by Carol II and his intended quasi-regionalist administrative reform, and came back with a vengeance in 1940. In other terms, it remained a cultural, not legal, reference. As such, given that we have to stick with facts, and not with interpretations, the text as is remains the better formula. All that needs to be detailed will be so in the history section and its main article (may I remind you that, since the former is supposed to remain succint, mentioning the more minor events in the lead would be thrice redundant?). If you kinda got the idea that I support regionalism or a Transylvanian identity, you would be wrong: I have no definate POV on that matter, I am not remotely Transylvanian, and I am carrying out this debate simply because history is not my plasticine playground. Dahn 16:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i will add POV tag to the article, until we reach agreement Criztu 21:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: WHAT? DO I HAVE TO REACH AN AGREEMENT WITH YOU FOR THIS ARTICLE TO BE NPOV? Who died and made you an encyclopaedia, dude? Dahn 21:13, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will list Transylvania on Wikipedia:Current surveys, Wikipedia:Requests for comment, and Wikipedia:Third opinion. after that I will list Transylvania article on Wikipedia:Requests for mediation and after that on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. Until this process will be over I will put a dispute and POV tags to the article. Reverting them will signify you are not willing to reach a NPOV formulation of the Transylvania article Dahn Criztu 10:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is my POV, Critzu? You do not answer any concern and accuse me of whatever you dreamt of last night. Is it "my POV" that Mihai does not truly belong in the opening paragraph for conducting a one-year campaign that arguably placed Transylvania under the same administration (although: fact - his son ruled Wallachia; fact - he did not give the countries the same administration; read any goddamn source on the topic and you'll see this at worst alluded to)? Well, hell, even the source that you are otherwise so keen about quoting disagrees with you on this topic. Is it "my POV" that you propose casually dropping a highly controversial and self-contradictory reference to the Alba Iulia Assembly in the first paragraph (while detailing it there would be providing info thrice redundant!), when every goddamn Romanian politician of the time, as common sense history tells you, rejected the resolution of the Assembly. Find a tag that better reflects what you mean; since you cannot even begin to prove why what challenges your claim would be POV, I suggest one that says "this article is contested by one person, because it does not comply with that person's POV". Hell, you are not even contesting the article, my friend, but failure to mention things in the article (which should make both tags misused). I'm going to, again, erase the tags: you want to bring arbitration or whatever, do it - the tags are not at all necessary for that. Let me also note that you advertise this an open debate, but have failed to answer any question raised in the last posts, and are now only replying to inform me not of "why I am wrong", but of "how you're going to take measures against me". Your behaviour is irrational. Dahn 10:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didnt make any accusations toward you. I stated clearly that i intend on reaching a consensus on what informations are relevant for, and how to formulate the Transylvania Lead section (and after that all article will be discussed). I expressed my agreement in a Britannica like formulation until we reach a consensus. The way it looks now, Transylvania article is disputed by me and you, and i consider its lead section far from being NPOV. I will add the POV tag and Dispute tag until the dispute resolution will settle our dispute. Criztu 11:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You implicitly accuse me of having a POV. As it is, you are the only one debating anything on this page, and that thing is not even my or anyone's POV, it is failure to include yours. We cannot possibly "settle our dispute", Criztu, because you added nothing to the debate, did not present anything relevant, have quagmired in your interpretations about Trianon, do not answer to the point, and only repeat the same mantra about how I am biased without specifying what my bias is. Furthermore, I find it perplexing that you write in all seriousness on this very talk page that what we need to do in order to remove a tag that you placed is to settle a dispute between you and everybody else! The very implications of that are phantasmagorical. Moreover, since you do not actully contribute to debating your own point anymore, and since you pretend not to notice that even the Britannica (and, as was already pointed out, there is nothing saying that it should be used as a guideline!) does not agree with the points you make, you yourself contribute nothing to solving the alleged debate. If you figured that this "passive resistance" will make others ignore the fact that you make no sense, just because you'll annoy all to death, I have to tell you are wrong: you'd have to come up with at least one relevant reason. Dahn 11:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not making accusations. as u can see i dont revert what u wrote, hoping to reach a consensus on talk page. until we reach a consensus i will add POV tag and Dispute tag. i will proceed to RfC and Mediation not as a threat toward you, but I follow the guidelines of Wikipedia: Dispute resolution. Criztu 12:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What is my POV for a POV tag to be there? Dahn 13:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 1.)Michael the Brave united Transylvania with Wallachia and Moldavia. it is relevant for the lead section in that today Transylvania is a historical region of Romania. 2.)Romanians proclaimed union of Transylvania with kgdom of ROmania in 1918 after they took control of Transylvania administrative bodies. it is relevant in that it expressed the will of the ROmanians living in Transylvania to a union with Romania. 3.) Transylvania is curently a historic region of Romania, "another traditional division of Transylvania is the Hungarian system" suggests an administrative system currently in use, and being a tradition of a legal entity Transylvania. i consider such formulation a weasel formulation Criztu 14:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is your POV: Michael the Brave did not rule Romania, nor did he bring a single administration to the countries he led, nor did he express any will other than Emperor Rudolph's. Romanians "taking control" of the administrative bodies only happened for a brief period after factual military occupation by Romania - all this is to be explained in the history section, especially given that Romania was effectively awarded sovereignty over the region by and only by the Treaties system. The tradition system of administration is currently reflected by Kingdom of Hungary pages - covering three different types of administration. Let's hear some arguments that are not gibberish, Criztu. Dahn 19:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Because there was no Transylvania prior to that. If it is disputed precisely when it began to exist, that certainly happened under Hungarian rule. (I don't think the text as it is is in danger of giving readers the impression that Hungary already existed by the time Homo sapiens came to exist) Dahn 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "If it is disputed precisely when it began to exist..."  What exactly is the IT that begun to exist, the name, the region, a political entity, something else?  You're saying "there was no Transylvania prior to that"; there was no name "Transylvania" prior to that, we agree here, but you cannot say "Initially the name was part of...", can you?  What became part of the Hungarian Kingdom was the region, not the name, and the region existed (under different names, perhaps) way before that.  This article is about the region that these days is called Transylvania, isn't it? Dmaftei 20:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, all of that would be meaningful if the article would imply that Transylvania and Hungary were created by God Himself on the 8th day or something. The reference to the region as a region dates from its creation inside the kingdom of Hungary: France did not come to be with Gaul, Romania did not come to be with Dacia. If you still find the word awkward, change it to something relevant and, in your own words, not "too heavy in details". Dahn 08:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Because this was following an obvious criterion. Move all data about regional tradition to the geography section if you will, but stick the reference to populous cities to the same section. Also, I cannot see how mentioning a tradition of Transylvania as a state falls under the label "Hungarian POV" (last time I checked, the present Hungarian POV tends to prove that, even when emancipated, Transylvania was in reality Hungarian). Dahn 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't say one word to the effect that "mentioning a tradition... falls under the label..." (though your reply brings to mind qui s'excuse, s'accuse; think about it...) Dmaftei 20:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going to disregard the ad hominem here, because I don't think it was intended. Let me read again what you first posted: "it appears to be leaning towards a Hungarian POV", which was a general point you were making - since you did not detail, I had every right to assume it was behind the critique for this point as well. Dahn 08:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The term "Transylvania", you mean? Well, it is quite obvious that there is no consensus, not even on the same side of the border, as to what "those regions are to Transylvania". Dahn 19:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I mean the term "Transylvania".  What I point out is the fact that the past political status of Banat, Crişana and Maramureş has nothing to do with the fact that these days there are people that think of Transylvania as Transylvania-proper plus Banat, Crişana and Maramureş.  I couldn't care less about consensus; please stick to the point if you really want to have a meaninful discussion... Dmaftei 20:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is the very point. Up until 1918, Transylvania was, for both Romanians and Hungarians, as well as for all people referring to the land, something else than it is today. For regions other than Banat, Crişana and Maramureş, it is only natural to say that their status has been fluctuating in regard to the core area or their respective overlords - I did not categorize them, I had established what all possible basis for reference to subregions of Transylvania may be (if you will note, the introduction aims to cover, without detailing, all possible relations between those areas and whatever Transylvania was; it also common sense not to imply that a region which was attached to Transylvanian state's territory is exactly the same as a part of Transylvania, even if common reference has come to believe that it is). Dahn 08:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: You could change that to "traditionally fluctuated". Also note that the verb "fluctuate" referrs to the status they had towards various powers inside and outside Transylvania - this is highly relevant if we consider that the region was for long a state. Dahn 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understood very well what you meant by "fluctuate", and again, my point has nothing to do with traditionally or non-traditionally.  See above. Dmaftei 20:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nor had mine. See above. Dahn 08:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Move all to geography section, then. Dahn 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Not my business. Talk to those who dealt why the article and ask them why they did so. Dahn 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe this is very much your business, since as far as I can see from the article's history it was you who put the list in the lead.  Please correct me if I'm wrong. Dmaftei 20:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I meant to say that I did not give the articles their titles, and that I did not want to be factor in establishing wiki policies towards the naming convention to be used. As it is, I gave them the name present in the articles' lead, and I do not know if English sources do not agree with me (frankly, I don't care that much to look into it). My point was: seek an agreement with other users and, if you do, make the change both here and there. Dahn 08:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: As I proposed above, move it to the Geography section. The debate I was having with Criztu centered on my use of the word "traditional" and his move to place it in a subsection of the History section under an inaccurate header. Dahn 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Sure. I propose: "In common reference, the Western border of Transylvania has come to be identified with the present Romanian-Hungarian border, settled in the Treaty of Trianon although geographically the two are not identical; Transylvania other borders are with Ukraine  to the north [with perghaps a mention of what historical regions in Ukraine], and the historical regions of Moldavia [the proper term as opposed to Moldova] in the east and south, respectively." Dahn 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose what I proposed before: "Transylvania borders Hungary in the west, Ukraine in the north, and the historical regions of Moldova and Wallachia in the east and south, respectively."  I don't see what purpose "in common reference... has come to be identified" serves; the borders, both international and inter-regional, are what they are, regardless of some people's feelings about them.  I also don't understand your assertion that the western border of Transylvania and the Romanian-Hungarian border are not geographically identical...  What's that supposed to mean?! Dmaftei 20:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The point of "in common reference... has come to be identified" is, again, that post-1918 Transylvania is different from the pre-1918; this needed to be alluded to somewhere, as the article made no reference to that whatsoever (and thus involutarily mentioned conflicting versions of what Transylvania actually is). I think you will find that the "geographically" was not added by me, but by a Hungarian user who, probably, wanted to stress that a border between Hungary in Transylvania "does not exist"; I did not bother with it because, just as well, if redundant, it established just as well what that user had not read into his/her own addition (namely, that the border had almost always been to the east of that line) - I never liked the word, but, as such, it is superfluous rather than false. Dahn 08:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The thing is, when one speaks of "Transylvania borders" one can understand "Transylvania is delimited as a teritory" when in fact Transylvania is no more. Culturaly yes, informally yes, but when "borders" are presente the matter could be seen as "official". Transylvania does not border Hungary, Romania borders Hungary. see Border "Borders define geographic boundaries of political entities or legal jurisdictions, such as governments, states or subnational administrative divisions." Criztu 21:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Borders, boundaries, abutments, whatever.  My point is why stop at the western neighbor, and not go round.  As for your "Transylvania is no more", excuse me, but that's nonsense. Dmaftei 22:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Transylvania as a legal entity with boundaries defining its teritory is no moreCriztu 07:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: I requested mediation in reaching a consensus about Transylvania article at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-17 Transylvania article Criztu 14:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  dispute resolution 

message: To the anonymous editor who has repeatedly replaced the section about "Transylvania as part of Romania" like this: don't. It's nothing like conforming to the standards of Wikipedia, most notably NPOV; it is a violation of the copyrights of this site; and it is bad form anyway to deliberately avoid discussion and try forcing something into the article. (And, by the way, it hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of remaining in the article for over a few hours, since anyone watching this article will revert this kind of edit on sight.) KissL 14:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent anon edits 

message: The introduction part: "Initially part of the Kingdom of Hungary". Well, was it Transylvania initially part of the Dacian state? History does not begin in 1000 AD. :) PANONIAN (talk) 11:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because there was no Transylvania prior to that. If it is disputed precisely when it began to exist, that certainly happened under Hungarian rule. (I don't think the text as it is is in danger of giving readers the impression that Hungary already existed by the time Homo sapiens came to exist) Dahn 19:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "If it is disputed precisely when it began to exist..."  What exactly is the IT that begun to exist, the name, the region, a political entity, something else?  You're saying "there was no Transylvania prior to that"; there was no name "Transylvania" prior to that, we agree here, but you cannot say "Initially the name was part of...", can you?  What became part of the Hungarian Kingdom was the region, not the name, and the region existed (under different names, perhaps) way before that.  This article is about the region that these days is called Transylvania, isn't it? Dmaftei 20:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, all of that would be meaningful if the article would imply that Transylvania and Hungary were created by God Himself on the 8th day or something. The reference to the region as a region dates from its creation inside the kingdom of Hungary: France did not come to be with Gaul, Romania did not come to be with Dacia. If you still find the word awkward, change it to something relevant and, in your own words, not "too heavy in details". Dahn 08:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the first reference to a political or statal entity known as Transylvania is in Gesta Hungarorum - Gelou uero dux ultra siluanis. Criztu 20:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Noting that I do not have a special appreciation for your habit of selectively answering, Criztu, I will draw a clear picture for this particular one: the book is written from inside Hungary at a latter date, and the "mention of Transylvania" is not clear enough to add something to this debate. I will not engage in further discussions with you if you continue to carry it like this. Dahn 20:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think information to first reference to Transylvania in a historic document belongs to Lead Section. Since there is no mention of Transylvania in documents of Roman times, i dont mention Dacia in the Lead section. If i find a historical document dating from Roman times would mention Transylvania, i would provide the info in the Lead section Criztu 10:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you read not coments are which I posteed for yous to reads: not truly "Transylvania"; about Gelou - but written 200 years after; no reason in hell why, even if it were factual, it is to be mentioned in 5 goddamn places on the same two pages! Really, Criztu, are you on a crusade to brainwash everybody here by stating the same stuff over and over and over and over and over and over and over again? Dahn 10:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Transylvania is first refered to in GH, so this belongs to Lead in my opinion. I am not debating when was GH written, or how many individuals roamed the teritory of Transylvania in year 943. It is simply the first mention of a state Transylvania, and mention is also given to a ruler Gelou defeated by a ruler Almos Criztu 10:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Well Dahn, here is problem: it should be first defined whether this sentence speak about geographical region of Transylvania (as it is now) or about historical political entity of Transylvania. If you speak about political entity then you should change sentence and writte something like this: "Initially, the Transylvania as political entity was part of the Kingdom of Hungary". Just not to have confusion here. PANONIAN (talk) 13:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I guess. Although its definition as a "region" mentioned in the first sentence serves that purpose IMO. Change it, if you will. Dahn 13:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: However, regarding the origins of Transylvania, was it Gyula an independent ruler as it is shown on this map? http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1000.htm So, maybe the introduction sentence could be like this: "Initially, it was an independent Principality of Gyula". :) What you think? PANONIAN (talk) 13:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the article on the guy establishes a connection between him and Hungary. Even if that weren't the case, a single term defining the region is not attested for that period. Dahn 13:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, but you still did not answered part about political vs geographical entity. PANONIAN (talk) 13:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, you did answered, I did not saw. I will try to improve this sentence a little. PANONIAN (talk) 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, Dahn, I realized -- too late, unfortunately -- that my replying to your comments will transform my observations into a debate.  In reality I have no desire to debate anyting with you or anybody else here on WP.  The sole purpose of my observations was to let whoever might be interested know that, at least to some readers, the lead section seems to be of dubious quality.  If somebody will find some of my observations reasonable and proceed to make changes accordingly, that's fine; if not, I don't care that much.  I do acknowledge, however, that by replying I mislead you into thinking that I'm willing to enter into a debate with you, and I apologize to you for that. Dmaftei 13:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just a question? 

message: I will copy here the message left on my talk page by the person mediating between me and Criztu. This constitutes a provisional answer, but no one has taken up mediation after that.
"Unfortunately, I am going to be taking a wikibreak soon and will not be able to continue the mediation any further. My attempts to get another mediator to take over have failed, and you may have to find some one else to finish it. However, I can make these remarks on the topic abstractedly:
#You must always cite references, and if somebody opposes your verified view on the matter, and they cannot back it up, then their claims are dissmissable.
#To give an accurate, NPOV, you must give both sides of the coin - contraversial views must be included somewhere.
#And most importantly, the head section is a summary and should not go into great detail on subjects - it should say what is widely accepted and no mention should be made on trivial ans specualatory subjects.
Hope that helps you. --BarryC (talk) Uncyc 15:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criztu's last edits

message: The lead section is too LARGE. I would suggest moving much of its content (about regions of Transylvania) to "geography" section. Opinions? PANONIAN (talk) 21:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. I am still waiting for feedback on the ethnography, which I see as condensing and clarifying info provided now in the lead (by differentiating between the political and folk traditions etc.). Dahn 00:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What about aesthetics?

message: I am putting everyone on notice: if people continue on this page to say things like "shove it" and "shove it sideways" and other comparably uncivil things in addressing one another, I will feel free to block the offender for a week, without regard to political views or to whether "Johnny said it first." Losing your temper once in a while can happen to anyone, but this has become an unacceptable pattern. - Jmabel | Talk 19:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civility 

message: I notice some problems with the external links on the Transylvania page. The first link called 'Transylvania Tourism" leads to the Transylvanian Webcatalogue in Hungarian language, little to do with Transylvanian Tourism. The next one is called 'Cycling in Transylvania' which is very nice, but not only it hasn't been updated since 2001, it also represents a commercial biking holiday company.
I propose to re-name the first link as Transylvanian Webcatalogue and delete the second one.
I myself tried to add the links www.kalnoky.org (Built Heritage Preservation in Transylvania) and www.transylvaniancastle.com (Heritage Tourism in Transylvania) as I believe it could be of general interest to those who want to know more about genuine Transylvania, but the link got immediately erased as spam. If the cycling link is accepted, I don't see why links on Transylvanian Heritage get deleted.
Gingko1 09:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I was about to copypaste your message on my talk page here just before I noticed you posted here as well. Personally, I think you make a fine point about the current links; I do not, however, know if the site you mention is a more valid link than the one to be deleted. Dahn 11:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, have a look at www.kalnoky.org, and surf through www.transylvaniancastle.com (not just the homepage, there is a lot behind). I truly believe it is interesting to know that such a venture as the one depicted on these sites, namely the effort to save and revitalize Transylvanian built and natural heritage, is existing. I suppose you know that most of Transylvania's cultural heritage is derelict and neglected. Our venture is selfsustaining, and ethically sound. Please consider. Gingko1 13:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: May I propose the following: Rename the first link to 'Transylvanian Webcatalogue', keep 'Cycling in Transylvania', add 'Built Heritage Preservation in Transylvania' and 'Transylvanian Heritage Tourism'. Can we agree on this? Gingko1 11:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I was waiting, too. Any more opinions on the subject before I give it a try? Gingko1 11:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Gingko. While I understand what you mean, the adding of external links like this is generally discouraged. Instead, we encourage you to add content to articles, because that's how Wikipedia grows. If you see any other commercial links please remove them. Thanks. —Khoikhoi 15:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Very well, I just removed the cycling link. The 'Real Transylvania' link doesn't work, if it persists it will have to be deleted, too. I still believe that to delete the heritage links is making the page poorer.Gingko1 16:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that if you contributed to this article it would make the page better. :-) —Khoikhoi 19:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Links on Transylvania page

message: It appears that the Romanian Academy and the Hungarian Academy decided to collaborate on a common version of the history of Transylvania. It's an important development, so it should figure in the article. But where? Here is the link .
Dpotop 11:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added something at History_of_Transylvania#Historiography. I'm not sure if anything belongs in this article just about the prospect of a book. - Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Interesting evolution

message: Why do we say Transylvania is "in the centre of Romania"? I suppose the centre of Romania is in Transylvania, but clearly Transylvania, especially in the broad definition used here, constitutes the northwest of the country as well. - Jmabel | Talk 03:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now fixed. - Jmabel | Talk 00:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Central 

message: I don't know if the point was considered settled but that's far from being the case. The Banat region is no part of Transilvania. A good analyse of the improper inclusion of Banat in Transilvania can be found here: (in romanian) Apartine Banatul de Transilvania? Nu! by banatian historian Sorin Fortiu. I added a "citation needed" tag at the beginning. It follows that all references to the counties and the cities of Banat are also false. --Radufan 20:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Banat