Talk:Freeman Freeman-Thomas, 1st Marquess of Willingdon

message: Moved from Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2006 February 23:
* Freeman Freeman-Thomas, 1st Marquess of Willingdon ([ history] · [ last edit]) from  some minor rewording and reordering. --Martyman-(talk) 21:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The article lede seems to say that his first name is George, but the article title implies (rather oddly) that it's "Freeman". --Jfruh (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  First name? 

message: Peers are formally addressed as "the [peerage] (of) [place]" (or, for barons, "the Lord (of) [place]"), never "[name], [ordinal] [peerage] (of) [place]".  See Forms of address in the United Kingdom#Peers, peeresses and non-peerage. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 00:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a biography, not an envelope. Compare the ODNB, which has "the only son of Frederick Freeman Thomas (1838–1868), rifle brigade, of Ratton and Yapton, and his wife, Mabel (d. 1924), third daughter of Henry Bouverie William Brand, later first Viscount Hampden" and "In 1892 Freeman-Thomas married Marie Adelaide, fourth daughter of Thomas Brassey, first Baron (later Earl) Brassey (1836–1918), the Liberal politician". Opera hat (talk) 09:14, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Titles 

message: In the dispute itself, Miesianiacal is piping "Henry Brand, 1st Viscount Hampden" as "The Viscount Hampden" and "Thomas Brassey, 1st Earl Brassey" as "the Lord Brassey", claiming it to be the "proper titles". I'm guessing that this is what he means in the section above, where he refers to Forms of address in the United Kingdom#Peers, peeresses and non-peerage. If those are improper titles, the article names would be improper too, wouldn't they? It makes no sense at all.
I believe he's wrong on three grounds:
# First, this is not address, it's reference. "Your Grace" is address, "His/Her Grace" is reference. Speaking about somebody, or mentioning somebody, is reference. Nobody addresses a person that has been dead for over 100 years.
# Second, it unnecessarily introduces ambiguity. Since there have been ten viscounts Hampden (of two different creations), it could be relevant – to say the least – to see which of the viscounts was the marquess's father-in-law, instead of concealing it by piping the link. Nothing is gained with the piping – on the contrary, one is only obscuring things, introducing ambiguity, and leaving the reader to hover the mouse pointer over the link, or click it, in order to see which viscount it was, which is not possible for offline readers (see #3 below). It could be relevant in a context of, for instance, political offices, to write "The Marquess of Willingdon was succeeded by The Earl of Bessborugh", but parenthood and marriages are not political context.
# Per WP:EASTEREGG, one should not tease the reader, and in printed versions, hovering the mouse pointer and following links are impossible. To this he responded (in his edit summary) "Wikipedia is an internet based encyclopedia". So, WP:EASTEREGG does not apply? Really?
HandsomeFella (talk) 11:46, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Given you have schooled Miesianiacal on Transparency, in my view, you should now feel free to restore your edits. Graemp (talk) 12:10, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I waited an extra day to give him an opportunity to respond, but he hasn't edited since. So now I've removed the piping. HandsomeFella (talk) 09:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

text: Oh, no. If you were to implement your take on the guidelines you would have A Lot Of Work ahead of you, because the overwhelming majority of nobility articles that I have come across are linked the way I linked them. And it's rather rediculous to call it "semantics" when I just pulled the rug from under you. HandsomeFella (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Funny, I rarely ever see them linked the way you prefer. But, even if you have seen it done that way "overwhelmingly" doesn't mean it's the right or even best way. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 19:30, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

text: In familial references (when stating who someone's father, mother, brother, etc. was), and in non-contemporaneous references (i.e. references to time periods different to that of the narrative), peers should be referred to as, for example, "the 7th Marquess of Salisbury" (henceforth "the full form"). In other situations, peers should usually be referred to simply as, for instance, "Lord Salisbury" (henceforth "the short form"), both when mentioned in other articles and in their own articles, unless it is important that their exact rank or numeral is stated, in which case the full form should be used (i.e. both the rank and the numeral). Dukes are "the 12th Duke of Devonshire" in their full form and "the Duke of Devonshire" otherwise. Second and subsequent reference should be to "Lord Salisbury" or "Salisbury" ("the Duke" or "Devonshire" for Dukes). Their wives have the same form of reference, save that ordinals are obviously omitted and the usage of the title alone should not be used: "Lady Salisbury" or "the Duchess".
I.e. Lord Brassey most of the time;  use the number only when referring to some other time or to genealogy; do not use The Earl Brassey at all - except in succession boxes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:14, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: The dispute

message: :By the way, why did Thomas change name? If it's not an inheritance, with name-and-arms clause, that would itself be interesting. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:40, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope User:Pmanderson doesn't mind me moving this to a new section. Apparently the deed poll changing his name was reported in the Times of 20 August and 18 November 1892, so if someone with access to the Times archive can look up the notice that might shed some light. Opera hat (talk) 23:05, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Name change

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thread_title:  External links modified