Talk:String Quartet No. 12 (Dvořák)

message: I'm returning to this well after the time span I'd set for myself. I'm not yet proposing any particular change in the article, but I looked into a couple of  sources not yet mentioned in this discussion I think.  Hughes, 1967, p. 165, mentions the quartet as "commonly known as the 'Nigger' quartet (although since that word has become taboo in the country of its origin the nickname has fallen somewhat into disuse)." 
The word "Negro" I think should not be grouped together with 'nigger', there is a big distinction. An institution, the United Negro College Fund exists, although in modern U.S. usage the usual word  is 'Black.'
The word "taboo" conveys a strong offensiveness beginning at some time, no later than the 1950's? The Hughes quote suggests that in the UK,
the word might have been relatively inoffensive at least up until the mid-20th century. 
On American usage and views I think Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain is interesting. The novel was published in 1885 in the USA.
Quoting the article, 
"It was criticized upon release because of its coarse language and became even more controversial in the 20th century because of its perceived use of racial stereotypes and because of its frequent use of the racial slur 'nigger'", although the tenor of the book is "anti-racist'. (Citations are given.)
Even "coarse languge" might imply some negative connotations, and stronger ones are indicated in the 20th century. 
A question: when if ever was "nigger" lacking in negative connotations to black people? Or to white people favoring civil rights for blacks, of whom there were many in the US ("abolitionists") by the 1850's or earlier? Marlindale (talk) 00:32, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought it had become clear in the preceding discussion that connotations, regional or universal, are irrelevant here. What counts is what happened. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:55, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am questioning the phrase "without negative connotations at the time". It is there in the article, should it be, as is? Marlindale (talk) 01:31, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't the preceding discussion come to that, sourced, conclusion? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:10, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

text: What should be changed? Do you want to rewrite "Such older nicknames, without negative connotations at the time, were used until the 1950s." into "This was done despite the offensiveness of such an epithet." or similar? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:54, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I favor removing the qualifying phrase altogether. First of all, whether or not the word at the time had derogatory connotation appears to be unclear; second, even if it was clear, it is not relevant to the article - certainly in this context (as the nickname of the quartet) it was not meant to be derogatory.  Third, it seems to me that it is more important here to be accurate than to be politically correct. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:08, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, I would also favor removing the phrase, but as a lot of people joined in the older discussion, I will wait a while, say a week, before acting. Marlindale (talk) 16:00, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Which word, which place, as well as what time?

message: Belatedly, I'm agreeing to a deletion Ravpapa made in September, of two sentences I think I wrote, but for one thing they didn't make a coherent point.  In the first measures of each movement, shown in Burghauser, the Quartet does look much more pentatonic than the New World Symphony, but the Symphony does contain a flute theme (not at the beginning of a movement) which for a while is similar to the spiritual "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" which itself is entirely pentatonic. This got discussed on the Talk page of the  Symphony. Marlindale (talk) 22:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are trying to make an important point, but I can't figure out what it is. What does it mean that one piece is more or less pentatonic than another, and what difference does it make? It doesn't seem to me to be something you could judge from the opening bars of the pieces. I bet someone has written a doctoral thesis on pentatonicity in Dvorak's American works, and has offered answers to these questions. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:00, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pentatonicity, this piece vs. New World Symphony 

message: They were a father, son, and daughter from Spillville who participated in the first, "private" performance of the the Quartet. I recently inserted mention of the father and son in the main Dvořák article and would like mention of the family in this article to be correct. The son was not a "child" but a young man who had studied violin at the Prague Conservatory and served as the composer's secretary in the United States. I am ready with references.
I do not want to return to the subject of the old nickname for at least the half year I already promised. If anyone thinks that promise would
apply also to an edit such as I now suggest, I would seriously consider that. Marlindale (talk) 03:31, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kovariks 

message: The quartet had its first two public performances by the Kneisel Quartet, named for its first violinist Franz Kneisel.  Hughes says Kneisel was a "compatriot" of Dvořák, a Czech, but the article Kneisel Quartet says he was born in Romania and later was in Vienna before going to Boston
(as concertmaster of the Boston Symphony). In this article, I suppose there is no need to mention the nationality? Marlindale (talk) 18:09, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kneisel's nationality 

message: has added a sentence suggesting that the theme of the slow movement is a quote from Lalo's Fantasie Norvegienne. I have looked at this piece, and it has only the most passing similarity to the theme of the slow movement - the first three tones are the same, but the rhythm is completely different, the time signature is different, and, aside from that ephemeral fragment, the theme is altogether different. So I am wondering, do you have some source that suggests that the theme is a quote from Lalo? Or are you relying on your own knowledge of the piece? If the latter, I will remove the sentence. Thanks, --Ravpapa (talk) 14:01, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Theme of second movement 

message: Whatever this image is, it isn't the autograph score. It's only on two-staves, and seems to me to be more in the manner of a composer's working sketch. I'd like to know what it actually is, and to modify the caption accordingly. Anyone else recognise it, or have access to the source (Burghauser, Jarmil, p. 87) to see what it says? --RobertG ♬ talk 15:25, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "autograph score" image