Talk:Brummie dialect

message: I get the impression, that some people(even a minority of Brummies) think that the Black Country accent is just a broader version of the Brummie accent. I couldn't  disagree with this generalisation more! The Brummie and Black Country accents have no real connection, people just 'lump' them together because of their proximity.
Also, if someone on the TV (or whatever) does an 'exaggerated Brummie accent', then surely in most cases it's just an exaggeration of the Brummie accent NOT a Black Country one as the BC accent is completely different from the Birmingham one in just about every waySimon B 7 (talk) 16:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: 2008 Comment

message: My name is Steve Thorne.
There is inconsistency of the spelling of Thorne through this article. Thought as I'm not sure which is right I'm probably not the best person to fix it. THD TommyD (talk) 16:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steve Thorne / Thorn 

message: All those that you've mentioned having a distinct dialect all speak very differently in my opinion.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.51.181 (talk) 14:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Celebrity Speakers 

message: My wife's Brummie. I work in Brum. Some of these comments seem to be from middle class folk who want to disassociate themselves from reality. She calls herself 'Mom' and even writes 'Mom' not 'Mum' in cards etc. Took me a while to understand this. I have only ever heard Brummies talk of gambols rather than gamboling (and yes there is such a thing as a forward roll). Something not highlighted is that Black Country dialects are far more 'sing-song' than brummie. 
They used 'crips in South wales in the 70s...
The Yowser (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Will the real Brummie please Stand Up

message: Rather than debating the list phrase by phrase, I think the starting point ought to be Wikipedia guidelines, which should have been invoked long since: no original research, including its sections Cite Sources and Verifiability.
A practical example of how this works: I've lived in Devon several years and have heard many people talk of twilight as "dimpsey". However, it's against Wikipedia policy for me to include this in a Wikipedia article (however true I know it to be, even if I'd lived here all my life) unless I can cite a reputable verifiable source such as John Germon's BBC Devon Dialect page.
Currently, most of the Brummie dialect examples - even the majority that we agree to be true! - are unsourced by Wikipedia standards and shouldn't be here. Can we find verification? "Bab", "bostin" and "the oss road" are in Steve Thorne's dictionary at ebrummie.co.uk. Are others in there? Another reliable reference would be "Proper Brummie: A Dictionary of Birmingham Words and Phrases", if anyone can get hold of it.
Same goes for the phonetic examples: what's the source of those? Steve Thorne's thesis Birmingham English: A Sociolinguistic Study would be a useful source too.
195.92.67.76 23:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This page is really starting to look good now, some of the words and phrases removed are definately Brummie but in fairness to the recent changes(editor) I will discuss them here first so as not to create another edit war :) Nick Boulevard 17:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there is no need for an edit war as long as everyone sticks to the Wikipedia guidelines: citation and verification! Thorne's thesis looks very worth checking out, as the blurb suggests it covers the ethnic influences (Afro-Caribbean influence would explain the "dis", "dat" and "lickle" used by younger speakers). That's a worthwhile and significant thing to mention - but for Wikipedia it needs a source. 195.92.67.67 19:46, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: There is at least now an article worthy of wikipedia. Nick Boulevard 00:37, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Editing dialect examples

message: Some meat for the IPA pronunciation section. While the author(s) clearly know their linguistics, this too is currently unsubstantiated original research with no cited source. However, I've just found some excellent language samples, with SAMPA phonology and other annotations, at the British Library's Collect Britain website. I'm not sufficiently au fait with linguistics to rewrite the section myself, but this looks great material to tidy it up and verify the features noted. See the records for: Sue Long, Aubrey Walton, Harry Phillips and Billy Lucas, and Gabriel Gabriel of Castle Bromwich.
They also have plenty of Warwickshire samples (relevant to the Shakespeare bit) showing how accent drifts across the Brummie / rural southern isogloss. Here's a glossary of the symbols used (SAMPA, to get around the typographical problems of IPA). RayGirvan 00:03, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: You are doing some great work here Ray, nice work. Nick Boulevard 13:11, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I've tried to make some improvements based on this.  However, I left the RP approximations in (except for "heo", which I don't think is useful; maybe Estuary hell would be a better example).  A lot of readers aren't going to know what  sounds like, and giving an example of a similar sound in a well-known accent might help.  I certainly think they should be referred to as RP rather than "Standard British English" though; as far as pronunciation is concerned there isn't really any such thing. JHJ 12:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronunciation section

message: Gillean666: Wikipedia requires you to cite reliable sources for assertions. Regional dialect articles are notorious for people posting unverified claims based on personal experience. As I said in the edit summary, here's an article by Carl Chinn, probably the chief authority on this dialect, which mentions the expression but makes no reference to "thoss". If you think we should believe Gilean66 rather than him, provide proof. 86.139.143.243 14:40, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Carl Chinn, probably the chief authority on this dialect".  Says who? -Gillean666 16:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: See Carl Chinn and read the article references. Whether he is or not, it doesn't alter that you've provided no source for your claim. Here's the procedure: Wikipedia:Cite sources#When there is a factual dispute. I'm disputing it. So go find a documented source. 86.139.143.243 17:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not wanting to involve myself in the dispute, but Carl Chinn is almost certainly not the chief authority on the dialect. He knows his stuff when it comes to Birmingham and is probably very familiar with many features of the accent and dialect, but I don't believe he has any formal training in linguistics or phonetics, and if he does, I don't think he's published research in this area. There are bound to be linguists who would make better sources for assertions made in this article. — Trilobite 17:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headline text 

message: as a brummie isnt bostin more black country?
 missing it appears are "owright" , "innit" and "flippineck"
also brummies say "dudley" wheraes the residents of that area say "daaaadleyyyyyyy"   t ali 28/01/06
:don't you mean dudloi? :D (that's the brummies) ... the most confusing was knowing a guy who lived in west brom, so had equal portions of brummie (taking his boike on the booz) and black country (full-on yam yam) in his voice and would switch between both at random. As he's the only person I know personally to use Bostin, alongside a number of brummies who don't, i vote it's also Black Country. The other words definitely need to go in however! Fliiiiiiiipineck. (The last one arguably is more nationwide however, pretty sure i've heard scousers using it :D)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.180.56 (talk) 21:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  bostin? 

message: Advertisements are another medium where many perceive stereotypes. Journalist Lydia Stockdale, writing in the Birmingham Post ("Pig ignorant about the Brummie accent", December 2, 2004), commented on advertisers' association of Birmingham accents with pigs: the pig in the ad for Colman's Potato Bakes, Nick Park's Hell's Angel Pigs from for British Gas
The Creature Comforts characters weren't used to advertise British Gas, but Heat Electric. However, I don't want to change that yet because it's a reference to a newspaper article, and if the article itself made that mistake (I haven't read it), I don't know if it should be changed. --85.210.24.151 20:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The hells angels pigs are not from creature comforts, they are from a different ad.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.30.174 (talk) 16:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Creature Comforts/electricity adverts 

message: I love this page - It's funny because I'm a southerner living in Brum for university. It's an usual sounding accent to begin with, not so much because of the pronunciation, but more because of the intonation, which gets more emphasised the further into the Black Country you go. I think that the traditional Brummie accent is quite charming, but it is getting badly influenced by the Estuary accent (particularly amongst young people) and is being changed for something that is rather trashy and quite grating to the ear. -And Yes, I would totally agree with anyone that Cat Deeley's accent is the the perfect example of the modern cut-glass Brummie accent; clear pronunciation without to much intonation.
It ain't all bad.....
77.100.10.185 03:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Try living round the corner from a shrilly brummie aunt, uncle, and their two daughters... not so much 'cut glass' as 'able to cut glass at 20 paces' hehe. Cath's is silky in comparison!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.180.56 (talk) 21:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crikey, it's getting a bit emotional in here innit??? 

message: Does anybody here remember Pipkins?  If so could you help settle a dispute and let me know whether Hartley Hare had a Birmingham accent?  Thanks. 
:Aynuk N. Ayli (talk) 12:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Pipkins

message: How do they pronounce this word with a Brum accent?  HOW IS BABBY FORMED?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 18:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Babby?" 

message: Under the section called "Accent" in the second paragraph is a reference to "Bill Odie."  Is this meant to be the bloke from "The Goodies?"  If so, his last name has a double 'd' and there is a Wiki entry for him.
Mathsgirl (talk) 21:30, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bill Odie? 

message: I've noticed two contradictions articles here:
*This page first describes the Brummie accent as being "markedly distinct from the traditional accent of the adjacent Black Country" but later "a Black Country accent and a Birmingham accent can be hard to distinguish if neither accent is that broad".
*This page includes Adrian Chiles on the list of people who are "sometimes mistaken for Brummie-speakers". But the article on Chiles says that "[a] feature of his presentations is his Birmingham accent" - I've heard his accent described as being "Birmingham" in several other sources.
Anywikiuser (talk) 13:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Contradictions

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message: The entire intro is undocumented. No references at all. I'm not doubting its accuracy, but for encyclopedic purposes, I would like to see some references to back it up. Hifrommike65 (talk) 15:02, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Documentation? 

message: Hello, here is a suggestion for the vowels of the Brummie Accent.
commA	    	[ə~ɐ]
TRAP, BATH		[a]
PALM			[ɑː]
LOT, CLOTH	    [ä~ɒ~ɔ̈~ɔ]
THOUGHT		    [o̞ː~ɔː]
DRESS		    [ɛ~e]
KIT			    [ɪ~i]
happY			[əi̯~iː]
FLEECE		    [əi̯~ɨi̯]
STRUT		    [ɒ~ʌ~ə~ɤ~ʊ]
FOOT			[ɤ~ʊ]
GOOSE		    [əʉ̯~əu̯]
FACE			[ɛi̯~aɪ̯~ɐɪ̯~ʌɪ̯]
PRICE, CHOICE	[aɪ̯~ɒɪ̯~ɔɪ̯]
MOUTH		    [æə̯~æʊ̯~ɛʉ̯~ɛ̝̈ʊ̯]
GOAT			[ʌʊ̯~ɐʊ̯~aʊ̯]
lettER			[ə(ɹ)~ɐ(ɹ)]
NURSE		    [ɵ̝ː(ɹ)~əː(ɹ)~ɜː(ɹ)]
START		    [ɑː(ɹ)]
NORTH		    [o̞ː(ɹ)~ɔː(ɹ)]
FORCE		    [o̞ː(ɹ)~ɔː(ɹ), ʌʊ̯ə(ɹ)]
CURE			[ɘua(ɹ)~ɘʉa(ɹ)~ʊa̯(ɹ)~ʊə̯(ɹ), ɔː(ɹ)~o̞ː(ɹ)]
SQUARE		    [ɛə̯(ɹ)~ɛː(ɹ)~ɜː(ɹ)]
NEAR			[ɘiɐ(ɹ)~iə̯(ɹ)~ɪə̯(ɹ)~ɜː(ɹ)]
Those are some of the sources I used :
https://books.google.fr/books?id=jFarBgAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y
https://pronunciationstudio.com/brummie-accent/
https://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.402460
Those are the samples I used to make these transcriptions (along with some videos of brummie speakers by the youtube channel AccentBase):
https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/brummy-accent-gabriel-new-house
https://web.archive.org/web/20130812172251/http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/english57.html
https://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.402460
I hope that you'll agree with those suggestions, thanks for your time.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by YanisBourgeois (talk • contribs) 10:39, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brummie Accent Vowels 

message: We should define Birmingham, Solihull, Lichfield, Tamworth, Bedworth, Bromsgrove, Redditch and even Smethwick/Bearwood to be the Brummie dialect region - much like we do for Scouse despite the differences in the broadness/strength of the accent. We could also mention that there are areas of Brummie speech like Stratford-upon-Avon and parts of Shropshire that have have many Brummie speakers despite being separated from Birmingham by other accent regions - for example the Black Country accent of Bridgnorth in Shropshire and Cannock in Staffordshire giving way to the Brummie accent of the comedian Greg Davies, raised in Wem, and the Coventry/Leamington/Warwick accent being spoken in the region between Bedworth and Stratford. Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:21, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Extent of the Brummie Accent/Dialect Region

message: I am from the Bristol area, not from Birmingham, but with the risk of offending Brummies, is Brummie (using the abbreviation for convenience) really a dialect, not just an accent? I know that there is no formal definition of what differentiates a dialect in the way that language separation is defined, but mutual intelligibility and number of different words in use is generally used. Whereas an accent would use very few or no different words, but the common words in use would be pronounced differently.
I would say that Brummie speakers are completely intelligible to pretty much all UK native English speakers. Whereas, say Glaswegian or some Northern Irish dialects are not, except to those more familiar with them. There are other examples which can be said to be dialects, e.g. some Yorkshire speakers and Geordies are probably not completely intelligible to all other native UK English speakers. Therefore I would say that Brummie is only an accent not a dialect. Maybe I am more used to it, knowing people from Birmingham, and other UK native English speakers have more issues understanding Brummie?
I have lived in southern Germany for a few years. German has several dialects, which have much more significant differences to German than most accents in UK English and are not intelligible to all native Germans, e.g. Niederdeutsch, Bayrisch (Baorisch/Bavarian), etc. All Germans are taught in school in Hochdeutsch (high German) or what we would term standard German.
Bayrisch / Baorisch is not considered by most linguists as a separate language to German, because the number of different words is too small, but it is definitely a dialect, not merely an accent. Niederdeutsch too, and Niederdeutsch shares commonalities and geographical area with Dutch, so I believe can be considered a dialect of Dutch and German, although German and Dutch are definitely different languages. Bavarians and Niederdeutsch speakers will speak, or even must speak Hochdeutsch to Germans from other areas.
I don't consider that UK English has many of such dialects with such big differences to standard British English. In the past there were often more differences as people travelled less and TV and radio has changed language, so modern speakers tend to be more mutually intelligible. When I have been asked by Germans, I have said that in the UK most regions would be said to have regional accents rather than dialects, as the significant differences, as the German dialects have to Hochdeutsch, are generally not common.
Lkingscott (talk) 13:20, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Accent or Dialect???