Talk:History of the Jews in Albania

message: Here an interesting debate for the factual accuracy of Ruches  a highly anti-Albanian author. Aigest (talk) 08:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruches as a reference 

message: However, the Jews community of Vlore, which numbered less than 100 families, was expelled from the country due to a collaborationist proclamation of a Nuremberg Law
*Date in which the Nuremberg Law was proclaimed by collaborationist?
*Date in which these families were expelled?
*The country in which those families were expelled?(very curious about it?)
Moreover giving the fact that in the beginning of the war there were about 300 jews in Albania. That means that all were expelled? The numbers don't fit (1 family=4members) it means all jews were expelled?! Yeah Ruches fantasies as always. Aigest (talk) 12:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to me the only reason you say Ruches is not WP:RS is because you don't like him.  His book is published by a mainstream publishing house, so he satisfies both WP:V and WP:RS.  The other sources also do not contradict him, you are just making that up.  And please stop edit-warring, you have already broken 3RR.  --Athenean (talk) 06:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

text: No one explicitly refutes Ruches.  They just don't go into the same level of detail.  That's not the same as refuting.  Ruches specifically speaks about Valona.  None of your "mainstream" sources mention Valona.  As for fringe theories, you would be well advised to look in the mirror.  --Athenean (talk) 07:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Whatever dude, arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall.  You just call any source you don't like fringe, without knowing what a reliable source is.  ruches IS a reliable source.  His book is published ny a major publishing house.  Simple as that.  Moving on.  --Athenean (talk) 07:25, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Please read WP:RS and WP:V, and read them well.  I am sick discussing things with people who have no idea how wikipedia works.  Wikipedia already has established criteria for when a source can be considered reliable.  It does not need yours.  --Athenean (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately, all the interesting bits in these sources are not accessible to me in Google books, so I'll have to ask you to document more fully what they say. Please note that, from what I can gather from your quotes, all the sources that mention the Wannsee conference seem to be only saying that Albania was included on a list of intended targets, not whether those deportations were actually carried out (The Wannsee info is of course interesting and should be included in some form, but it's a different issue). Source 1 only speaks of "financial hardship and official discrimination", not of deportations. That leaves us with the material from the Routledge Atlas of the Holocaust and from Epstein's Dictionary of the Holocaust, certainly good sources, so if you can please provide more information of what it says, I'd be grateful. In any case, if we have these sources, we don't need third-rate material like Ruches. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I asked for a bit more context of what these sources say. Could you please oblige? (And don't you tell me you can't get the details on Google books: this is not a topic one can write on the basis of google. If you can't get the whole thing online with complete context, go to a library before you come here.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

text: "Sequence 'Wallsee conference–Nuremberg Law'?? Are you still talking of "Nuremberg Laws" as a generic term? There's no such thing; there were the Nuremberg Laws, and you ought to know they were a lot earlier than Wannsee. For Ruches to use the term so loosely is irresponsible enough (and should in and of itself be enough to stamp his book as second-rate), but at least he used scare quotes; please don't water the terminology down even further. – As for the Routledge atlas, all the maps I have seen appear to give fairly precise datings and context information, so if there are maps dealing with the Albanian case, I'd like to hear a bit more about what they say. Same for the Dictionary of the Holocaust; it apparently does provide some more detailed information, so please provide it. – Other than that, okay, we have now heard that a number of sources name a figure of 200 victims. We still haven't established what actually happened on the ground though. Without the "when", "where" and "by whom" this is all not very useful yet. Remember that this whole fracas started when you insisted on including a claim that the deportations from Vlorë happened with substantial collaborationist participation of some local forces. So, who did what and when? (From the page sequence in the Routledge Atlas, I gather that most of the events would be in mid-1944 (i.e. after the German takeover from the Italians, presumably). Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruches phrase  

message: I've found the stuff below in googlebooks (about Jews's persecution in Albania as well as deportation to Germany):
*Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora M. Avrum Ehrlich
April 1939 Italy invades Albania; thousands of non-Albanian Jews are stranded in the country; Jews suffer financial hardship and official discrimination (a general view of Jews in Albania+the rest of the page is not available to me, can contain also usefull info.) 
*Jewish history in modern times Joseph Goldstein, Yosi Goldshṭain
the utter eradication of every Jew (as defined the Nuremberg Laws), without possibility of escape. At the Wansee conference it was decided in one breath (and in one statistical table) to kill one hundred Jews in Albania... 
*The Routledge atlas of the Holocaust. Martin Gilbert 
the deportation of Jews from Albania to Bergen-Belsen (map 230) [in page 193.-a detailed map of how the Jews from Albania reached Germany] 
There is also an interested map in p. 244, about Albania says ca. 200 Jews were murdered (between 1939-1945).
*The Institute anniversary volume (1941-1961) Institute of Jewish Affairs: confirms the number 200.
*From Herzl to Rabin Amnon Rubinstein
(p. 217) In resolution adopted at the Nazis' 1942 Wansee Conference, at which the bureaucratic arrangements were made for the Final Solution, not a single Jewish community was left out, not even the 200 Jews living in Albania.
*History of the HolocaustEric Joseph Epstein, Philip Rosen. confirms the deportation from Albania to Bergen-Belsen: p. 5, "several Albanian Jews were deported to Bergen-Belsen" 
I'm sure there are many other books that confirm Ruches' sentence. Suppose the primary source that Ruches mentions (Albania's Wiedergeburt, Vienna 1942, obviously a pro-Nazi work about occupied Albania), is hard to find today. To sum up: There was a 'Nuremberg Law' (Nuremberg Laws were proclamations that were used as an excuse for the persecution and subsequently deportation of Jew communities -breaching bureaucratic procedures- issued in several occupied countries) issue in Albania, according to the Wansee Conference in 1942. 200 (probably this equals 'less than 100 families') Jews were departed from Albania to Bergen-Belsen.
The only point I can not confirm about Ruches is that the departed Jews were only from 'Vlore'. As per Aegis 'one sided accusations' (to sum up: he forgets to mention that the one that accused Ruches of being 'interesting but highly pro-Greek' is repeatedetely accused by being 'clearly pro-Albanian' [], [], [], []-suppose in that way Vickers and Petiffer are much more unreliable , 'paradoxically' they summarize Ruche's section about NE Lib. Front 1942-1944 [], []), I have repeatedetely answered in Talk:Northern Epirus Liberation Front. 
My personal opinion about Ruches is that he is anti-soviet in some sentences (it's a book printed in US in 60's), but there is not a single uncomfirmed fact (he is one of the authors that adopts the Albanian-Illyrian continuity scenario, moreover provides citations, bibliography etc.). No discrepancies at all, he is comfirmed by a number of authors and institutions anyway (anyone who needs something about Ruches', i'm ready to provide it, he is verifiable in googlebooks). 
I strongly believe that the above mentioned authors and institutions are 'rs'.Alexikoua (talk) 05:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, all the interesting bits in these sources are not accessible to me in Google books, so I'll have to ask you to document more fully what they say. Please note that, from what I can gather from your quotes, all the sources that mention the Wannsee conference seem to be only saying that Albania was included on a list of intended targets, not whether those deportations were actually carried out (The Wannsee info is of course interesting and should be included in some form, but it's a different issue). Source 1 only speaks of "financial hardship and official discrimination", not of deportations. That leaves us with the material from the Routledge Atlas of the Holocaust and from Epstein's Dictionary of the Holocaust, certainly good sources, so if you can please provide more information of what it says, I'd be grateful. In any case, if we have these sources, we don't need third-rate material like Ruches. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I asked for a bit more context of what these sources say. Could you please oblige? (And don't you tell me you can't get the details on Google books: this is not a topic one can write on the basis of google. If you can't get the whole thing online with complete context, go to a library before you come here.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

text: "Sequence 'Wallsee conference–Nuremberg Law'?? Are you still talking of "Nuremberg Laws" as a generic term? There's no such thing; there were the Nuremberg Laws, and you ought to know they were a lot earlier than Wannsee. For Ruches to use the term so loosely is irresponsible enough (and should in and of itself be enough to stamp his book as second-rate), but at least he used scare quotes; please don't water the terminology down even further. – As for the Routledge atlas, all the maps I have seen appear to give fairly precise datings and context information, so if there are maps dealing with the Albanian case, I'd like to hear a bit more about what they say. Same for the Dictionary of the Holocaust; it apparently does provide some more detailed information, so please provide it. – Other than that, okay, we have now heard that a number of sources name a figure of 200 victims. We still haven't established what actually happened on the ground though. Without the "when", "where" and "by whom" this is all not very useful yet. Remember that this whole fracas started when you insisted on including a claim that the deportations from Vlorë happened with substantial collaborationist participation of some local forces. So, who did what and when? (From the page sequence in the Routledge Atlas, I gather that most of the events would be in mid-1944 (i.e. after the German takeover from the Italians, presumably). Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Deportation of Jews fom Albania to [[Bergen-Belsen concentration camp|Bergen-Belsen]] (1942)

message: *Unless there is bad luck,(google.books shows different pages in different countries) I can see nothing confirming Ruches version in any of your posted links. 
*If Ruches use a reference of 1942, than you should know that Albania was under Italian rule, so Ruches of course is misinterpreting a German plan for Jews extermination (planned in the Wansee Conference 1942 in Germany) with what actually happened in Albania (page 179 Routledge atlas "The Jews of Albania had survived unmolested under Italian rule"). That this was a german plan for extermination of every jew in Europe that is no doubt "In resolution adopted at the Nazis' 1942 Wansee Conference, at which the bureaucratic arrangements were made for the Final Solution, not a single Jewish community was left out, not even the 200 Jews living in Albania." From Herzl to Rabin: the changing image of Zionism by Amnon Rubinstein Holmes & Meier, 2000 page 217, but to use the german plan as a prove that happened (while reality in this case contradicts him and none speaks of Jews from Vora being deprted, moereover under Italian rule 1939-1943) that is called misinterpretation. That's the risk what happened when you use snippet views of books, trying to reach your own conclusions from extrapolated sentences. I made you some questions above
    * Date in which the Nuremberg Law was proclaimed by collaborationist?
    * Date in which these families were expelled?
    * The country in which those families were expelled?(very curious about it?)
And you still didn't answer. Now let's suppose that Ruches reference is a book of 1942 right? Than it should have happened in 1942 don't you think? Surprisingly you don't see any sources (I mean anyone except Ruches) to support that has been a deportation of Jews from Albania in 1942(?!) The only case of Jews deportation related not to Albania but to Greater Albania (created by Italians and Germans including Cham region and Kosovo) was that of 1944 from Pristina concentration camp of Jews being arrested in Kosovo. Please don't base your work on snippet views anymore (moreover if they say nothing like in this case) Aigest (talk) 07:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop mixing up things. As I said, the plans of the Wannsee conference are one thing; what happened on the ground is another. And Aigest may have a point: if "Albania", in 1942-44, from the perspective of the Germans, covered more than the present country, we need to be careful about the geographical scope of any statement sourced to contemporary documents. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  MIsinterpreting book's snippet views and historical sources 

message: History: 
(cur | prev)  06:02, 28 June 2010 Kits2 (talk | contribs) (5,595 bytes) (Jewish pop gain in WWII changed from a few hundred to over a thousand, also ONLY German occupied country to have a Jewish pop gain) (undo)
THEN (cur | prev)  23:32, 30 June 2010 Schrandit (talk | contribs) (5,585 bytes) (Undid revision 370545034 by Kits2 (talk) I'm pretty sure Albania was occupied by Italy) (undo)
Anyone who does not know that Albania was occupied by the Germans after Fascist Italy collapsed should not be rewriting Albanian Holocaust history.
And all reliable sources agree that Jewish pop in Albania after German surrender was over a thousand.
And if you disagree that Albania was the only country occupied by Germany with a Jewish population gain, name the country and provide a decent source for Jewish pop figures.  154.20.149.96 (talk) 06:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know much about Albania, our article on the subject says that Albania was a de jure independent Kingdom that co-operated with the Axis from 43-44 suggesting that it wasn't really occupied by Germany.  But like I said, this is a corner of history I don't know that much about, if you've got something else I'm all ears. - Schrandit (talk) 09:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for getting back.  The current source that we have say that around 1,800 Jews fled into Albania.  If you know of a better source with a different number please let us know. - Schrandit (talk) 01:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jews in Holocaust 

message: Entered a "full quotation needed". This is snippet abuse. Saying that the jews were expelled from Vlore is incorrect. . user:Alexikoua might have that book.
--Sulmues (talk) 01:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a quotation is somewhere up here on this page. It was removed because the wording was so vague it turned out to be useless. Re-reading the debate from last year, I come to the conclusion the Ruches claim must go out. The Ruches book, given its obvious propagandistic slant, is of dubious reliability at best. His account of this alleged incident is so vague and unspecific it leaves more questions open than it answers. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that something did happen in Vlorë: when? who was locally in charge? (Italians, Germans, local Albanian forces?) What was that alleged "Nuremberg Law" thing he mentions? What happened to the victims? All efforts at substantiating these claims from other sources, as documented above, led to lots of waffle but nothing concrete. As long as there are no more substantial sources to confirm this, it is useless for us. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Ruches

message: I did some rewriting of the WWII section today, but now I checked also the source links given above to the yadvashem.org page  and the Fischer article , and it appears they have more detailed, and partly conflicting information. Most importantly, it appears that indeed the 400 who were sent to Belsen were from Kosovo, not Albania proper (Kosovo was officially part of Albania at the time, so it's understandable they would be counted as "Albanian" in some sources, but conditions in Kosovo and in "old" Albania were apparently markedly different). There are some other details too were Fischer and Yadvashem.org appear to agree with each other but diverge from the Routledge dictionary. This needs more rewriting. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S.: the correct reference for the Fischer paper is: .  is a mirrored version on some website. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Further rewrite needed

message: 1900-1939
The assertion that "Albert Einstein took refuge in Albania for a few days in 1935 before continuing his journey to America with an Albanian passport" cannot be true, as he left Britain for the United States in 1933 and never returned to Europe. In March 1933 Einstein returned from a six month teaching assignment in Pasadena, United States, and being unable to return to Germany he stayed for short periods in Belgium and England, then emigrated to the United States in October 1933 (Albrecht Fölsing, Albert Einstein, pp. 659-678) He travelled as a Swiss citizen.
Esterson (talk) 14:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Albert Einstein 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on History of the Jews in Albania. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070621094523/http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/conclusions.htm to http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/conclusions.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:25, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It appears that the fate of the Jews of the Albanian Kingdom (1943–44) should become part of this article, even if they lived outside Albania proper (in modern terms).Alexikoua (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Jews out of Albania proper

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 05:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress 

message: Aleks Buda, an Albanian Jewish historian, should be added to the notable persons list. He was among the more important Albanian historians of the 20th century, and was of Jewish descent. 76.69.117.29 (talk) 02:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable Albanian Jews