Talk:Wargame/Archive 1

message: Comments on this draft are welcome. 
Philosophical Considerations
Two philosophical considerations sometimes covered in opinion columns of Strategy and Tactics, the most in-depth journal of the wargaming community, were its relation to reality in general, and, its relation to politics in particular.
All wargames are "digital" and not "analog" simulations: a paper wargame is a form of paper computer. This makes it difficult for wargames to simulate both continuous phenomena such as the fog of war in the large, or individual and small unit stress in the small, or discontinuous phenomena, such as the way in which the death of the Swedish leader Gustavas Adolphus at the battle of Lutzen violated a "rule", that the leader's death would cause his troops to become disheartened and to flee.
Many wargames for this reason had to incorporate idiomatic (special-purpose) rules to accurately simulate the course of the war, but here the danger became that the wargame (as in the case of SPI's World War I) would replicate history; SPI's World War I game consistently generated a final, enthusiastic German offensive late in the game, followed by a "black day of the German army" in which the combined pressure of the Allies stopped the offensive at the Meuse.
But, if simple and "orthogonal" rules generate a game like chess with its distance from real war, and "idiomatic" special cases, a game that simulates a reality independent of the skill of the commanders, the philosophical question becomes what is being simulated, refought or recreated in a war game...indeed, whether a war game is reducible to a complex mathematical formalism and is for this reason of no more relation to reality than chess.
The illusion, of choice, freedom and skill may encapsulate a "great man on a white horse" philosophy of history which generates "virtual history", consisting of speculations as to what the world would "be like" if (for example) the American Confederacy had won the American Civil War. The assumption in these alternative histories is that the battlefield decides history; in the case of the Confederacy, the gamer who "wins" at Gettysburg, or who throws the dice that brings Britain into the war on the Rebel side, doesn't have to reflect whether there were further "Secesh" (secessionist) impulses in the Confederacy which would have resulted in its breakup, followed by a *reconquista*, either by a French-dominated Mexican empire or the industrializing North. 
Ideologically, the very idea that history can be simulated as a Turing machine, in discrete jumps, encapsulates possibly too much freedom for the illusion, if that is what it is, that men determine events, and for this reason, neither Tolstoy nor Marx would have approved of wargames.
The relationship of wargaming to politics is also conflictual. James Dunnigan's 1970s game Oil War, which included scenarios for the invasion of Iraq, could be gamed in 1978 as a "fairy" war game, eliminating both Israel and the EU as combatants but correspondingly reducing the size of the Iraqi army to reflect the effect both of the 1991 settlement and ten years of sanctions. These plays accurately predicted the difficulty of getting to Baghdad whenever the weather turned and the critical role of A-10 aircraft, but left the players ignorant of the situation after the inevitable victory of the coalition of the willing, and perhaps insensitive to the state of a leaderless and chaotic country.
In President Bush's infamous claim of victory in May 2003, the war had been won as a wargame; but a wargame can't simulate "losing the peace" and is indifferent to suffering.
Ethically, Redmond Simondsen did reflect in some columns on some of the unpleasant characters attracted to wargaming, who in today's terminology were at best nerds, too often chickenhawks (willing to simulate, at least, the overstress of counters representing suffering men) and at worst crypto-Nazis. The spirit of Mencius was alive in the best wargamers and game designers, like RAS himself, for their play and their creations revealed the pity of war, but it wasn't present in all players.
Like a computer simulation of a physical process, a digital or discrete wargame adds nothing to the quality of the assumptions of its designers. Unfortunately, this can lead to decisions drained of considerations (such as politics and international law) exogenous to the fascinating and reified technology, whether this be brightly painted toy soldiers immune to suffering and death, brightly inked counters likewise immortal, or glamourous computer screens. A good example would be the second Schlieffen plan, to invade France in 1914, in which the game showed a clear advantage to Germany if it invaded Belgium, a decision which may have brought Britain into the war. A more recent example would be (classified) Pentagon simulations which "proved" that it was militarily possible to invade Iraq after the American road to the north of Iraq was closed by a vote in the Turkish parliament.
James Joyce's Steven Daedelus said that history was a nightmare from which he would awake. The strange genesis of wargaming in the "peace and love" decade of the 1970s may have been a failure of imagination in which the mechanical generation of alternative histories REPLACED, for young males, the political hope for substantive change.
:This is going to take some time to digest....
:You might want to consider breaking this up into subsections. Right now, it's a bit wordy and hard to follow, and seems to wander around a bit. Subsections that force you to concentrate on one thing at a time should force you to organize things a bit more, focusing your thoughts, and helping the reader (me ^_^). You might want to simplify the language slightly; I'm reasonably well-read, but I'm going to have to look up 'exogenous'. The rest of the article isn't at this level, which will make it look odd. The subject matter is a bit more advanced, so the language is needed... which may be the problem. This is the 'main', 'introductory' article on wargaming, and this entire essay is probably a bit much for that, suggesting you have the start of a new article—which should be summarized and referenced in this one.
:Speaking of which, you should reference this article where you can. It could be regarded as 'original research' by some as is and showing that it is at least a subject that has been written about elsewhere should help. The bulk of the tactical wargames article is largely built off a single Lorrin Bird article from Campaign for instance.
:Oh—and wikify where you can, of course.
:To a certain extent, I'd go more for talking about what wargames do and don't simulate. That would be part of a discussion of wargame design that I'd like to do at some point. More philosophically, I'd touch on war vs wargaming—the fact that wargaming was most popular when war was least popular is one I find interesting. There's also a comment in "My Journey to the Cathedrals of Wargaming" (Panzerfaust... something like #70), one person being talked to mentions that he'd done most of his wargaming in the same period he was most heavily involved in the peace movement. -But that's just me. --Rindis 18:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed new section: philosophical considerations: from [[User:Spinoza1111|Spinoza1111]] 13:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

message: I contest the addition of this company to the list of wargame publishers. Though it doesn't say it, the list is supposed to be notable publishers. I looked at the web site, and it states that it is a two-man operation. Though it is possible that the rules they publish are very popular, I doubt they are, especially since the articles on the games they wikilink to don't even exist. Actually, I see a few companies on the list that perhaps should be trimmed out. Anyone else? —Frecklefoot 14:15, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: They are a good candidate for being the best known publisher of rules for wargames with miniature figures for their period. The list and article contents can usefuly be expanded until each class of wargaming has enough coverage for its own article. Miniature figure wargaming should make for an article with some colorful and interesting to children pictures of games at some point. JamesDay 15:40, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
replies: text:  You seriously have got to be kidding if you know anything at all about wargaming to be suggesting that WRG shouldn't be included. If you exclude GW which almost is a monopoly, then WRG has got to be the number one in terms of the impact the various related rules to WRG has had upon the wargaming world (with the possible exception of some of the very early rules such as Little Wars, Kriegspiel, etc... ). Do however agree that Phil Barker is one of the most notable wargamers, not quite at the same level as H.G.Wells and Featherstone but still right up there. Mathmo 09:00, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

text: I think including fewer is better.  Fewer entries makes the article more useful.  Consider this: we eventually have a list of 250+ companies.  What reader is going to try to sort through that many?  Making a judgement on notable is not POV.  For example, is War Squid notable compared to Warhammer 40K?  That's easy—no one's heard of War Squid (I made it up), but Warhammer 40K has thousands of users. —Frecklefoot 15:03, May 4, 2004 (UTC)
James is right, they are a major publisher of widely used rules for wargames using figures. Phil Barker (the original WRG founder) should probably be included in the list of notable wargamers, very much a contemporary of people like Gush and Featherstone. --Peterjohnston 09:00, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Wargames Research Group

message: This section currently has a few problems.  First it breaks the list into 'CoSims' and 'Board-based wargames', but gives no difference between them.  If you wanted to be really picky with the given definitions, then you could exclude some games from the first for not having cardboard pieces, but that would eliminate two of the four games currently in that part of the list (unless you want to talk about the original Nova version of Axis & Allies); and you can exclude games that use area movement from the second section (instead of a grid), but that tosses Axis & Allies (again).
I suggest we collapse it into two sections: Board-based wargames, and Miniature wargaming, and get rid of the duplicates in the list.  Maybe have list items for *families* of games (i.e. the five Warhammer games listed) to help keep the list under control.
Also, the only Outpost boardgame I'm aware of is not a wargame (just a fun trading game). Anyone know different? Rindis 04:26, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I just re-organized the list, and added a bunch of new items.  At this moment, I'm trying to avoid taking anything off the list, but I expect the next step is to start trimming it down as it's probably overgrown now. I'm figuring that notable means any of famous, innovative, or best of type, so it is pretty broad.  I want to be evenhanded, and will certainly look up anything before I remove it, but I'd like to see some discussion why a particular game is or isn't notable as the list gets worked on. (Or even, is it really a wargame?) Rindis 22:40, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: One idea is create a table, such as the one at Middle Ages in film, with a notes field that says why its significant. Or, possibly find a list allready made somewhere that lists the "all time best" wargames, or the "essentials". Either way it's tough because you have to remain neutral and not give personal opinions about a game. As with the above article, could just provide external links to reviews located elsewhere. Stbalbach 23:54, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

text: Just updated the list after trimming red-link game designers. Some of the missing bios are depressing.... --Rindis 15:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable board wargames

message: * Alessandro Barbero - teacher of Medieval History in North Piemonte University of Italy, prized writer of historical essays and fictional books
* Phil Barker - one of the founders of the UK's Wargames Research Group
* Tony Bath - founder of The Society of Ancients
* Ty Bomba - (Wargame designer, Decision Games and founder of XRT's Command Magazine).
* Frank Davis - Mr. Meticulous (Wargame designer at SPI - Wellington's Victory).
* Phil Dunn - Founder of the Naval Wargames Society
* Donald Greenwood - Original publisher of Panzerfaust magazine. Took over as editor of the Avalon Hill General. Eventually rising to Vice President. Currently runs the Boardgame Players Association (BPA).
* Paddy Griffith
* Irad "Terry" Hardy - (Head of R&D at SPI and wargame designer - War Between The States).
* David Isby - (Wargame designer at SPI - Soldiers).
* Joseph Miranda - editor of Strategy & Tactics, prolific wargame designer, inovator in depicting human factors
* John Prados - (Wargame designer, Avalon Hill Third Reich).
* Thomas N. Shaw - The Man In The Middle (Avalon Hill Game Designer).
* Redmond A. Simonsen - Graphics Gamespeak (Pioneer of game graphics as a system, also rule standarization and game designer at SPI).
* Lionel Tarr
* Christopher R. Wagner - The Man and the Hobby (founder of Strategy & Tactics).
* C.F. Wesencraft - author of "Practical Wargaming" and "With Pike and Shot"
* Brigadier Peter Young
My first rule in doing this was no redlinks. We have the full lists for those. This should just be a teaser that goes to decent articles (this last is not yet true). --Rindis 17:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just updated the list after trimming red-link game designers. Some of the missing bios are depressing.... --Rindis 15:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gamers

message: Don't shoot the messenger, Stbalbach, but I just noticed that wargaming was included in the template. That's why I added it to this article. Now, the template includes board games too, but I didn't add it to that page, because it nearly always isn't roleplaying (even in a loose sense). Now, as for wargaming, yes, it isn't 100 % RPG, but it certainly can be viewed or enjoyed as an RPG by some. (French, English and German lads reenacting the Battle of the Somme springs to mind. Even English guys with pin-helms.) There can be an overlap with live action role-playing. And by your rationale, miniature wargaming wouldn't be RPG'ing either. Please follow some links before gassing something (if you gas, gas consequently). — Phlebas 17:31, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a note - the template has been revised substantially by WP:RPG; non-RPG elements have been removed. Percy Snoodle 15:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Template:RPG]]

message: What external links do people think should be included in this article? I've removed the following, with reasons. Feel free to disagree, or add more- but please give reasons here before re-adding. Thanks. --Petros471 13:10, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The only one I would consider retaining is consimworld, because they seem to aggregate news from various sources. It's good to have both static reference-type sites as well as those that are a little more newspaper-like, ads and all. Stan 14:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: OK, first off, the computer wargame section is way too small.  Maybe I'll have to add some stuff.
 Secondly, the use of the phrase "lack of human interaction" as a "disadvantage" is very subjective, because it implies that human interaction is an absolute value  and has no place in an encyclopedia.  And secondly, it is also a false statement in itself, since many computer wargames do involve "human interaction" (albeit usually not face-to-face).
Removed the statement that all zero-sum games might be wargames because it's self-evidently not true. DJ Clayworth 03:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Computer section is too small 

message: The list of "notable" games seems pointless as is. There is already an article on "list of wargames". I think if we're going to present games as "notable", they really need to be notable and proven as such - else, why include them? I've gotten the list started with titles I feel are notable - most were on the list already. I've deleted some - no offence intended, but if anyone wants to champion their inclusion, I'd suggest one or two brief sentences on why they should be considered notable. The ones I selected are mostly milestones, except for ASL whose notability comes from longevity and sheer amount of "stuff" published for it. Comments welcome.Michael Dorosh 01:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for all the help! I've added in a couple where the notability is a bit easier to define, I'll think about some others. I tend to weight both milestones and longevity for 'notability'. Some of the old list was also 'best of class', though that can be hard to define. --Rindis 20:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable games 

message: The image :Image:Panzerblitz box cover.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
:* That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
:* That this article is linked to from the image description page.
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --04:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Panzerblitz box cover.jpg

message: :Image:Warcraft 3 Humans fight Orcs cropped screenshot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 03:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Warcraft 3 Humans fight Orcs cropped screenshot.jpg