Talk:Vicente Fox/Archive 1

message: Even though Fox's comments vis-a-vis African Americans are considered racist by most people's standards, including my own, I find that, in keeping with NPOV, it would be better if the article were amended to include a more neutral reference to his comments, calling them "allegedly racist" or instead stating that there was a "controversy over comments he made about African Americans" rather than outright accusing him of Racism. A small issue, but, I think that calling someone racist, even if they appear to be racist, is not NPOV and should thusly be avoided in a neutral encyclopedia. In my view, references to Fox's comments should only state that there was a controversy over what he said, quote what he said, and mention that "some consider it racist". The article itself should not call him racist; that should be left to the reader's own judgement. --RichNYC87 04:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV dispute over section on Fox's racist comments 

message: I think someone should include a portion about Fox's racism.
:Nobody know's if there is such, but the events that have lead some people to believe he is, have been written about in the article. (to sign posts type --~~~~ --Vizcarra 23:31, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fox's "racism"

message: Since the quotes section only contained the quote Fox made that was considered racist, I moved that quote to the 'racist' section since it fits better there. Singling it out as the only quote in the entire quotes section is a violation of NPOV. --RichNYC87 04:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes section 

message: I mean seriously.. if I could be born to a wealthy family, i sure as hell know I wouldn't be driving a cocacola truck. But if that lands me the job as president as the united states......--Cyberman 23:52, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  I wish i could be president 

message: It is clear for me that the person who wrote the paragraph above belongs to those mexicans he/she refers. I think that refering to Mr. Lopez Obrador as Hugo Chavez is only a way to demonize him. 
It should be useful to mention that Mr. Lopez Obrador is the polititian with most popularity in Mexico, this is shown by poll results before the publication this comment. Mr. Lopez Obrador was the only mexican mayor finalist in the Wolrd Mayor Constest in 2004 . He is also nominated for year 2005 . (correction, he is the most popular in central Mexico; he holds no populartiuy in the north or south, or even in EdoMex.
I confess that I will vote for Mr. Lopez Obrador, in case he becomes candidate.
Mexico is a democracy, and people can prefer the polititician they want, although the candidate belongs to a left or conservative party. The latter was the case of Vicente Fox. Mexican people is dissapointed, so the results of the preference will be shown in the elections in 2006. Mexican people have the right to elect the politician they prefer and to have a left goverment. Will they be dissapointed? Fortunately Mexican people can express their preference in the next elections and vote for another candidate.
---------------------------------
That is also your POV. Articles should remain neutral. Also why was the president order number removed? It took me a lot of time to put it under every mexican president. -Alan MB
:I removed those, a few months ago, when the template was changed. It's not something we do with our presidents -- particularly with the various periods of anarchy / invasion /civil war in the 19th century, when numbering them 1-2-3 gives an inappropriate idea of continuity. Maybe there could be a case for numbering those who've held sequential office under the 1917 Constitution, since Carranza, although that's not something you see very often either. Would you care to  discuss it? –Hajor 13:44, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hajor is right -numbering our presidents is a really strange idea. I don´t think Fox himself knows or cares which President he is. If you have a numbered list, perhaps it could be used in its own article (lists of mexican presidents) or something related to history. Asereje 03:55, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many is many? 

message: Can we please, please modify (or simply get rid of) the dreadful infobox giving the category "Nationality:Not American"? This is absurd and offensive. -- Infrogmation 11:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox 

message: Somewhere it should be added that he is known for being a tall president.  I have heard that he is either 6'4" or 6'5".  I would have added the information myself but wasn't sure where it belongs.  --MateoP 17:00, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Height

message: Although Fox does not have the best track record, this article seems anti-Fox, and someone should correct this.
:I corrected some of the wording. Some of the "negative" aspectes are not necessarily POV, but public or expert opinion. If any of these are challenged, sources may be provided, or at least a note explaining it is an opinion. Could someone else check on this? --Vizcarra 19:00, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: This article cannot be biased for being too "negative" or not enough "negative" at the same time. Please discuss specific issues first. --Vizcarra 17:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV 2: The Sequel

message: As Fox has an Anglo surname, I wonder how it is pronounced: as "Fox" is in English, or differently?  I was hoping wikipedia could tell me this. -- Kalimac, 14 November 2005
:As the article explains, he is of Irish-American ancestry. "Fox" is an English word. So it should be pronounced as it is in English. In the Spanish-speaking word it is pronounced as it reads in Spanish F + oh + X. --Vizcarra 17:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, in English it is pronounced Focks, in spanigh "o" as in "ohhhh". So, different. --Vizcarra 18:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't understand the dipthong thing, but it sounds weird to me. The "h" has no sound by itself; writing "ohhhh" with lots of "h" simply means to pronounce a single o for a long time, without interruptions.  Saying Fox with a long, single "o" is really weird; saying Fox with two o's, in two syllables, is wrong in Mexico and probably also in the US. Writing "oh" with a single "h" doesn't really change the sound but the tone, it's just a writing device to differentiate between "?Oh, estas ocupado?" (Oh, are you busy?) and "?O estas ocupado?" (Or are you busy?). From the Mexican point of view, U.S. people pronounce the o using two vowels: they read "o", the say "ou". So, a Mexican "o" is just the first half of a U.S. "o". BTW, I'm Mexican.  Asereje 06:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "Oh" instead of "o" is used to differentiate betwen the o in "auto" and the o in "home". --Vizcarra 22:52, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pronouncing Fox's name

message: Fox employment and jobs policy strongly relies on workers migration quotas to the US. Now that the US plans to build a wall along the border this policy looks doomed. This issue needs to be addressed in this article.--tequendamia 00:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Tequendamia: how about addressing it while providing the tons of evidence and verifable non-pov sources you surely have? (Hari Seldon 18:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Employment policy 

message: How tall is Sr Fox? In the the photo [Image:Fox-Bush_in_Crawford_TX.jpg] he appears to be quite tall. (Photo appears on page Laura Bush) -- Writtenonsand 17:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Height?

message: No need to put your offensive rant here. Your comments could be construed as vandalism and wont gain yiou the support of admins. Desist, SqueakBox 14:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Offensive rant

message: nor will it ever be vandalism.
further moreif you block me I will be unable to post any more messages till the block is lifted.
132.241.246.111 02:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We would not want to miss your messages. Speaking of which, why not get a username, so "you" can have a specific identity. Sometimes we may have to block a user who isn't you, but who appears to be you because of the IP. Regarding vandalism, use the edit summary to properly explain why your edit isn't vandalism. As for this article, you (or this IP) seems to be adding material that is not so much biographical as attacking. Is this bill, which he has not even signed yet, truly an important biographical detail? Maybe, but as an encyclopedia we should not be in a hurry to decide. -Will Beback 08:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  my edit is not vandalism 

message: As I expected long ago, the 2006 Presidential campaign is hitting this article. Some vandal is claiming that Felipe Calderón qualifies as a "Fox Candidate" (see section), and is also claiming that he is failing. I would ask that vandal to take into the account the following:
*Fox obstructed Calderon's candidacty, and Calderón was participant in making Fox REAL candidate, Santiago Creel, to fail in his Presidential ambitions. Fox can't have it both ways, either he failed with Creel, or he won with Calderon (won in the PAN primaries)... 
*Calderón is not failing. Calderón is currently technically tied, with polls giving insignificant leads to himself, or his main opponent. Please see polls.
Because of the above, Calderón cannot be considered a "Fox Candidate", and has no place in the article, except to explain how he made Creel lose.
Hari Seldon 05:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fox Candidates issues

message: :Image:Bush Fox Harper.jpg isn't a good picture - it's hard to tell who is who, and it shows the pyramid better then the subjects. Didn't we have a clear portrait before, with just Fox? That'd be preferable. The pyramid picture certainly deserves a place in the article, but not as the introductory image. -Will Beback 03:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main portrait 

message: Reported by CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/14/fox.jackson/
Mexican leader criticized for comment on blacks
CNN) -- The Rev. Jesse Jackson on Saturday criticized Mexican President Vicente Fox's comment that Mexican immigrants to the United States take jobs "that not even blacks want to do."
Jackson called the remark "a spurious comparison" with "ominous racial overtones."
The Mexican president's office issued a statement late Saturday disputing the negative interpretation of his comments, saying Fox has "enormous respect to minorities whatever their racial, ethnic, or religious origin may be."
A Mexican official defended Fox later in the day, saying his description was not meant as an insult.
"The president didn't make a declaration in the racist sense; of course there are those who interpret it in that way," Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Derbez told a reporter in the Mexican state of Jalisco.
According to Derbez, Fox was making the point that "Mexican migrants are making great contributions in the United States and that their role is a positive role."
"They've been able to improve the conditions of life not just for themselves but also for the communities in which they settle and, by the same token, the president made the comment in this context to say that a large quantity of the jobs taken by Mexicans are jobs that in the U.S. society aren't being filled."
"I think that what we have to be very clear about is that the statement made by the president was in no way motivated by racism."
'Most poor Americans are ... white'
But Jackson told CNN in a telephone interview that Fox "should not confuse the need for sound legal immigration policy between the two countries, which is important, and the border disputes between the two countries, with a spurious comparison."
"The comparison is diversionary from the issue of a workable immigration policy between the U.S. and Mexico."
Jackson, who said he has never met Fox, planned to call the Mexican president.
Fox made the controversial comment Friday to a group of Texas businessmen meeting in Mexico. He criticized recent steps the United States has taken that the Bush administration said were aimed at curbing illegal immigration.
Fox discussed the role that many Mexican immigrants occupy in the U.S. economy.
Speaking in Spanish, he said, "There is no doubt that Mexicans, filled with dignity, willingness and ability to work, are doing jobs that not even blacks want to do there in the United States."
A State Department spokesman who asked not to be named, read CNN a statement saying, "That level of dialogue doesn't merit comment."
The spokesman also said, "President Bush's commitment to immigration reform that is rational, legal, common sense, decent and compassionate is well-documented."
Jackson said he has worked "for the citizenship rights of immigrants and Mexican Americans" and wants steps taken to avoid making the United States "hostile toward immigration policy."
He said Fox's comment about "blacks" seemed to be about a stereotype. "Most poor Americans are not black, they're white," he added.
But Jackson stopped short of saying Fox should apologize.
"I don't know about that," he said, adding that the comment was "unwitting, unnecessary, and inappropriate."
Bnguyen 08:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Here is a source about Vicente Fox racist comment

message: Vicente Fox Angers Black Americans With Racist 
It's been two days since Mexico's President Vicente Fox made the infamous remark about how Mexican (nationals) men and women are doing the work in the United States that "not even blacks want to do"
From this side of the Rio Grande, the remark is insensitive, not to mention politically incorrect.
Yet, when Fox and his Administration played dumb about the impact of the comment - I have to believe them. I've seen firsthand how blacks are pretty much an invisible segment of their society, even in this 21st Century.
The history of Afro-Mexicans is largely forgotten or relegated to that time in history that many Mexicans still resent when Spaniards came and ravaged their homeland. To help them with their many needs, the Spaniards brought African slaves with them. Thus is the origin of blacks in Mexico.
It's not unusual for Mexican comics to dress in blackface and elicit howls of laughter from audiences. 
When our embassy in Mexico City first protested Fox's remarks, el presidente's damage control staff went into high gear "re-explaining" what Fox meant. 
Sound familiar?
Anyway, Fox's office now realizes that if they want sympathy from the politicians that can help them the most for their cause on this side of the border, they're going to not only have to watch what they say but stop defending remarks that should be just as offensive to Mexican blacks as U.S. blacks.
On Sunday, Fox's office issued a statement saying that Fox "conveys his utmost respect to all minorities regardless of their racial, ethnic or religious background, and thus, regrets and expresses his disagreement with the interpretations that described (his) statements as racist."
I just hope his respect for all minorities extends throughout his own country, as well as, a gesture to mend fences/borders.
Link  http://latinalista.blogspot.com/2005/05/vicente-fox-angers-black-americans.html
Bnguyen 08:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vicente Fox Angers Black Americans With Racist

message: I wish to apologise for some of the things that I said during this misunderstanding on the editing of the Vicente Fox page. Specifically, I regret calling user yayayayaya a "Dictator of Wikipedia". If it is his wish to remove the comment from this discussion board, please allow him to. If else, let this statement stand that I did not really mean it, that I was angry at the moment at my impotence, and that I am really sorry I said it. Hari Seldon 03:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apologies 

message: There is an edit conflict on when Fox's term ended. Technically speaking, Felipe Calderón took office on December 1, which means Vicente Fox's term expired on November 30. This is consistent with Mexican law. However, since the President can only, constitutionally, transfer power before congress on December 1, then it can be interpreted that Fox's term expired on December 1 at 8:40 am, when Calderon took the oath of office. I don't know how to resolve this issue, but seek help and opinions to do so. I would also ask anyone to refrain from editing until a consensual solution has been obtained. Hari Seldon 21:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Term End

message: This section is getting rather large. Wouldn't it be enough to menction that the man was not an able public speaker, and port the rest to wikiquote? Hari Seldon 13:27, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't believe you would write Vicente Fox was not an able speaker. Your joking right?  He is by far, one of the best speakers, campaigners, and politicians in recent Mexican history. Did you ever see one of his debates in 2000? He alone, crushed his two main rivals, and came out as the winner in all debates. You need to read a little more about your country's history. --Dcrcort 01:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, winning a debate against Cuahutemoc Cárdenas and Francisco Labastida doesn't make the man an orator. Indeed, lets agree that I made a poor choice of words by saying he wasn't an able public speaker, but lets also agree that the man said some really controversial and unfortunate quotes in his time. Indeed, my suggestion was that not ALL of his unfortunate quotes need be in this article, simply a reference that he said some in his time, and then a list of them in wikiquote. Hari Seldon 02:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial Comments 

message: Substituted at 20:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment