Talk:Michael Jackson/Archive 11

message: I would like to remind all contributors to this article and this page to please maintain a good standard of civility, even if you disagree strongly with another editor. 
Furthermore, this page is not a place to express personal opinions, especially derogatory ones and even more so as this is a biography of a living person, where the bias is towards restraint. Some of the edits I have seen in the edit history are completely unacceptable, defamatory accusations, and must not recur.
This page is for discussion about material that can be used to improve the article. To that end, statements should be made with a view to following NPOV and be verifiable. These are non-negotiable policies, and persistent violation of them will be regarded as disruptive behaviour. 
Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you wish, and if there is anything you want to bring to my attention, please provide diffs. (ask if you're unsure about how to do so).
Thank you and I urge you to strive for a good level of co-operation with fellow editors to increase the standard of this important article, which obviously generates a lot of passion.
Tyrenius 03:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Conduct on this page: this is a warning

message: It is particularly important when there is contention that all material is meticulously referenced. Please study the policy VERIFY on this and do not put forward anything that does not follow it. Likewise personal opinions should be kept out of the argument. Stick to a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. The third non-negotiable policy is NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH. 
Continued violation of these policies can lead to being blocked.  
Tyrenius 13:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Verification: this is a warning

message: I have added some more information to highlight the stature and importance of Michael Jackson, something that I think this article has done a relatively poor job at. A user informed me that previous consensus decided not to use nicknames, but I just want to point out that these are not nicknames. A nickname would be something like "Wacko Jacko," not the "best-selling artist of all time," which is more like a descriptive term. Hope that clarifies the issue.UberCryxic 22:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether you call them "labels" or "nicknames" or descriptors or whatever is irrelevant. After many months debating and arguing, the consensus reached on this talk page was strongly against including this information in the introduction. I have removed it. Please do not re-insert it. There is no consensus for your edits and the last person who carried on about this was blocked for four weeks. Thanks, Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Not to start a war here or anything, but for one to see that "the evidence of child molestation was overwhelming" is quite ridiculous. The trial was not televised, and the evidence not shown to the public. How one could say it was overwhelming is beyond me. Oh and don't forget to sign your posts. :: ehmjay 22:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New additions in the intro

message: This picture does not represent Michael Jackson in a good way. Why isn't there a more recent picture of him? This was in the 80's.. We are now in 2006, coming into 07 soon! Can you not change it? I think it is disrepectful..— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.143.135 (talk) 
:We have to use the one thats up because of the Wikirules regarding Public Domain photos. :: ehmjay 22:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps you should take photos of "the gloved one" then. -I'll bring the food 06:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PICTURE!!! 

message: I note a slight edit war on this. Please note all genres must be based on sources. EG: www.allmusic.com. His genre is simply R&B. It's his style which is new jack swing, pop, pop/rock etc. The article should be altered to reflect that. -I'll bring the food 06:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently new jack swing is also a subgenre, not a style of R&B. Curently the situation is confused on this issue and discussion is going on regarding it at the infobox template page. However the genre column should be generalised, there is a consensus on that. R&B not New jack swing, or Pop-rock etc.--I'll bring the food 19:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It's a fair point, but I think that MJ has done a lot of different styles of music. His main genre is R&B, though, and plus it's sourced so I think it'd be best to leave the genre.--Ashadeofgrey (talk • contribs) 11:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Genres

message: Why are the categories "Muslim converts" and "Muslim musicians" on the article? AnonMoos 03:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Because there were rumours Jackson had converted...of course there is no evidence to prove this is the case and they should be removed. Anyone care to do so? :: ehmjay 04:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bogus Muslim categories

message: Wouldn't it be better if the list at the bottom just contained U.S Billboards no.1s and U.K Singles Charts No.1s, without the U.S R&B Chart positions? I think it should be official no.1 singles rather than other charts, otherwise we could include things like the U.K Dance chart and stuff like that. It would make the list better in my opinion. 81.153.14.178 12:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  U.S and U.K No.1s? 

message: Dear Wikipedians: It's great to have these audio clips of Michael's songs on this Wiki -- helps the uninitiated learn more about how Michael's sound is like. I have a question with regard to the uploading of these sound clips: did you guys just make 30-second .ogg files of Michael's songs and upload it directly? Did you have to request permission from record companies etc.? What sort of licensing option did you select when uploading of these files on Wikipedia? Would appreciate you guys enlightening me on this since I would like to upload some audio samples of the songs of a another musician, Ilaiyaraaja. Thanking you, AppleJuggler 03:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Audio clips on this Michael Jackson page - some questions 

message: Why is there not a more detailed section on his children?  I can't personally claim to know much about them, but someone here has to...
:Well Jackson has tried to protect his children for the most part - so the only stuff we really know is  their Birthday's and their names... someone MIGHT know more, but I doubt it. :: ehmjay 16:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Children? 

message: This statement is not correct, and once again, it is due to a source reporting incorrectly. Jackson was presented with an award for 'Most successful entertainer of all time' but this in no way relates to his overall album sales. The award was given for most sales/earnings achieved in one year. This source suggests that Jackson is in fact the biggest seller of all time, whereas even if selling 750m (no evidence - just his PR said this), he is below the sales of many artists. Therefore can this comment be removed. Reminder, Wikipedia is on 'facts', not saying one source is the truth. 60.234.242.196 23:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The above statement is not correct. I have stated that 'The award was given for most sales/earnings achieved in one year.'. Jackson of course was awarded a separate world record for this. He received the award 'Most successful entertainer of all time' from Guinness World Records, but without reference to why. Apologies for any confusion 60.234.242.196 22:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, in living people's biographies, "WIKIPEDIA IS BASED ON VERIFIABLE SOURCES, NOT FACTS." Please read the guidelines on this, they are explicit. I note i'm not shouting at you, just trying to make it clear.--I'll bring the food 16:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, The 5 pillars of wiki states 'accuracy' required. Wiki also states that information 'should be researched' and that 'reliable sources' are used. The statement used (and reversed) states it as fact (did not say 'claimed to be', 'reported as' etc.) New comment does. I did not edit the article but disputed it (as per wiki policy). I am also not a Jackson SME (Subject Matter Expert), and allow persons who believe they are to control this page. But this was clearly wrong, and no SME corrected it, in fact they added it. This has happened several times on this page, and is best described as selective editing. The problem is that such erroneous comments have an impact on other pages in wiki too, which we have to clean up. Also putting non credible comments on a page causes greater vandalism, from normally persons who get irritated by the bogus details being portrayed as fact. And yes, you were shouting. 60.234.242.196 19:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "He is the most successful entertainer of all time with estimated worldwide sales of 750 million."

message: well it's just filled with headlines rubbish. people have been cutting and pasting from CNN??? HA this isn't a bloody financial report or district attorney's office!!! For once in this bloody article, can we focus on the MAN rather than his money and the media which dog him??? What about what he's actually DOING?????????? I deleted it, whoops i took out a few pictures but hey someone will rv my edit because they're to pigheaded to accept change. I think that the article shouldn't be a financial reports but should be like the other parts of the article, sane for once and TO THE BLOODY POINT. Sorry i took out the pics my mistake, but please ONLY ADD BACK TO THE ARTICLE WHAT YOU FEEL IS RELEVANT: DON'T JUST MINDLESSLY REVERT. p.s. Shaanxi quake is bad, shaanxi quake is DANGEROUS. --Shaanxiquake 11:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I see two cnn cites, the section is fully chronological, I see no reason to wholesale delete sourced material, if you have a problem with the flow of prose, fix it. It seems pretty neutrally reported factual stuff to me. --Alf melmac 11:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The kid is apparently a "Suspected Supervandal"--AshadeofgreyTalk 19:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  visionary section 

message: In Wikipedia articles, try to avoid peacock terms ... do not help establish the importance of an article. They should be especially avoided in the lead section. WP:APT. dr.ef.tymac 06:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peacock cage 

message: Is it possible to better organise the article. As it stands, it's not massivelly helpul.--AshadeofgreyTalk 19:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fine the way it is. If we organise it other than by timeline it can inject pov.--88.105.84.42 19:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just have to say that that is absolute hypocracy and bullshit. I mean, you don't think the article already has pov, "I'll Bring the food"? well, sorry to tell ya, but it has a hell of a lot, and guess in what form it comes? That's right, attacks against michael jackson. For example, the last paragraph is clearly bias against jackson by referring to his performance using solely negative examples. There are a dozen minor points throughout the article as well, so please, don't kid yourself and claim that this article is not already POV. This is one of the most biased, derogatory bigraphical articles I have ever read. I'm just stating fact. --Paaerduag 10:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Personally, I feel that the article can still be broken down by timeline - however it could be broken down a lot more than it already is. As for the final paragraph, I'm going to agree that it is very heavily POV as all the articles it cites talk about a "disapointing" performance. No where did they look to articles that were positive about the whole event, nor do they go into detail about the reason Jackson was actually there - not to perform but to accept an award for selling over 100 million records. :: ehmjay 11:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't want an alternative to the timeline, i was wondering if we could have better section headings. And Paaerduag, it would be grately appreciated if you could list other examples of POV. Thanks.--AshadeofgreyTalk 17:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Are there any reviews of the performance that were positive, though? Could you refrain from swearing too, it's not pleasant.--I'll bring the food 21:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually quite a few. If you want I can go find some. :: ehmjay 04:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definately! If you can add some cool quotes it's all good. TBH given how many articles I'm working on at the moment and a sock puppet discussion page I need to create I don't really have the time to research for this one, if you have free time and the will, I'd definately like you to add it.--I'll bring the food 00:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contents 

message: I think the article is well structured, contains all relevant information, is well references, contains images where appropriate, and can't see any major POV controversies.
If the article is to be improved to FA, some sections would benefit from copyediting, and the article should be generally shortened (at least in my opinion and as per Wikipedia:Article size).
Some statements would also need further references, such as the estimated costs of Captain EO. 
Fred-Chess 19:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OH DEAR GOD. YAY. Finally the article is recognised for its good quality. Thankyou for acknowledging all the hard work by this article's contributors. Well done Ashadeofgrey, I don't think we would've got GA status without that massive rewrite of sources which you did single handedly. --I'll bring the food 21:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Promoting GA 

message: Image:We_Are_the_World_Jackson.jpg is incorrectly tagged. It is not created by the person who uploaded it and should be deleted immediately.--I'll bring the food 21:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: has re-added improperly licensed images. This user does not own the copyright to it and cannot license it under the GNU. Do be more observent. One editor has even reverted back to their version.--I'll bring the food 00:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures: WATCH FOR THE VANDALISM

message: A discussion on this talk page about including "pop icon" was moved. Any editors, reviewers or other interested parties can find an archived copy at User:Dreftymac/Docs/MJPopIcon200612. This message is provided solely for cross-reference purposes. dr.ef.tymac 02:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't necessary the debate can be found in the archive--AshadeofgreyTalk 08:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  MJ and "pop icon" 

message: Is he going to have a show in Las Vegas?
: Don't know, but he was meant to have a thing in Tokyo but that's been delayed. At the moment there's no info from any of his spokespeople.--AshadeofgreyTalk 17:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vegas show 

message: (sub-header since this is semi-related to the above)
I can confirm it personally, since I was there for this frantic incident in Caesar's (yes, for the record, people --even middle aged people-- act crazy when they see him).  If the Las Vegas Review-Journal is to be believed, he's looking at living at least semi-regularly in Las Vegas (and probably performing).  Other source articles: [NORM: Jackson prepares to settle down http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Dec-28-Thu-2006/news/11663970.html (12/28/06)]. Michael Jackson landing on Strip? (12/24/06); also a confirmation from the LA Times website here.  Should the fact that he's looking into living in Las Vegas be added?  Or should we wait until he definitely has a house?  He's only been there for less than a week, but it seems to be a development.  --Bobak 00:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Michael Jackson is in Las Vegas (looking to stay?)

message: oh dear whos better then Michael Jackson? lets see we have Prince whos great, , James Brown, Beatles, darn anyone else that can do what MJ can? not a rock band or a singer like Sinatra or Madonna. 
Elvis was not talented he just copied black music everyone knows that.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.74.11.76 (talk) 03:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Greatest Of All Time

message: Okay, I'm completely new to Wiki so go easy on me. First off, interesting debate here and much more civilised than any MJ message boards! But I do think there's a lot of insider MJ missing from this encyclopedia write-up. I wish more of the message board people would come here and help out. Here are a few notes for now: 
This write-up is extremely unbalanced, not in terms of fact/opinion but in the weight that's given to the last 5 or 6 six years versus his earlier career. Obviously, writers have more fresh facts/data for this time period, but it's unfair to lump Thriller into a 10-year period and then give a special section to a 2-year period involving the Bashir video. 
Here's how I'd divide this write-up to make it more encyclopedic. I'll give categories here with a few notes on things that might be changed/added: 
"Early life and career: 1966 – 1981" 
Make end of title 1981 not 1980. You could even divide into "Early life and the Jackson 5: 1966 - 1975" and "The Jacksons and Going Solo: 1976 - 1981." Section needs some work. Where are all the details about the Jackson 5 and Jacksons? It's strange that we get a petty exchange between MJ and Gloria Allred (under "Berlin and Bashir"), but no real details or quotes here. Relationship between MJ and Berry Gordy (his second Dad), fact that MJ recorded so much and "missed out on his childhood" (common theme in later interviews), alleged abuse from father, blossoming dance talent, appearance in "Free to Be You And Me" video, robot dance move, Ed Sullivan appearance (!), more hits from Jacksons including "Shake Your Body (Down To The Ground)", emergence of MJ as songwriter on songs such as "Blues Away" (first solo writing credit, off The Jacksons) and "Heartbreak Hotel" (off Triumph) and "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" and "Working Day and Night" (on Off the Wall). There's a lot to add here. 
"The Thriller Era: 1982 - 1985" 
I'd make this a separate section. This is the era that defined his career and changed pop music! It's missing a lot of details; again, why do we get so many details from Bashir video and zero quotes from this era?! Motown 25 performance at the very least needs some beefing up. This was considered a revolution when it aired. Maybe add anecdote about Fred Astaire calling up MJ the next day and telling him he was a "hell of a mover." Maybe some quotes from MJ about the album, what he wanted to do with it? Maybe notes on impact of Thriller video (on other artists, commonly mimicked choreography, etc.), fact that he brought Emmanuelle Lewis and Brooke Shields to the Grammy Awards, fact that he started jogging with the military and wearing some crazy military garb. So much to add, so little of it here!
"More Success and Controversy: 1986 - 1992" 
This would be a new section, possibly with a different title. Maybe "Bad and Dangerous: 1986-1992"? Seems cumbersome to list the album titles, but that's really the best way to chart his career. This section needs a mention of the fact that the National Inquirer claims MJ *gave them* the pictures of the hyperbaric chamber and told them to print it with the word "Weird" in the headline, meaning MJ wanted some "weird" tabloid coverage and toyed with the tabloids for a bit, though it obviously got out of hand. I've seen this mentioned in several biographies and (I think) the show 60 minutes. No mention of film Moonwalker?! Also mention fact that Oprah interview was a major television event, over 50 million viewers, I believe. Dangerous album gets majorly shortchanged here. And "which was accompanied by a controversial music video featuring scenes of a sexual nature, violence and racism" is weak; the controversial part was the dance sequence at the *end* of the video, and there was no "racism" just some KKK graffiti on a window that he angrily smashes (though I don't believe that was in original version). Should also mention morphing technology used in video, which was groundbreaking at the time. 
"First Allegations and Aftermath: 1993 - 2001"
If later sections are going to be really specific, this needs to be a separate section. Really, the allegations defined this era; all his music is a reaction to it, both HIStory and Blood on the Dancefloor. Lots of angry, weird music. And what about all the crazy promotion for the HIStory album?! He floated a statue of himself down the Thames, for crying out loud, and the promo video is totally over the top propaganda (in a fabulous way, IMO). Also, re: "Jew me, sue me" lyrics, I don't think this is encyclopedic because it gives a one-sided version. MJ has said "I was using myself as the victim" and identifying with the persecution of Jews or something to that effect; in other words, he's saying "Jew me" (or, persecute me the way the Jews were persecuted), and then he says "sue me" because...it rhymes. It's breathtakingly naive, but this is what he claims. Worth noting. For Invincible, you might note the efforts to bring MJ back to his earlier Off the Wall sound on a few songs like "Butterflies." It's also noteworthy that he *finally* started singing songs about relationships again and stopped singing about 1993 allegations. This section is missing Madison Square Garden 30th Anniversary shows, on 9/7 and 9/10/01 (a wealth of freakshow details, also noteworthy for pairing him with Liza and producer David Gest, and MJ was later Best Man at their crazy wedding). Might also note that MJ fled NYC after 9/11, and Corey Feldman claims he didn't offer him a ride in his limo, causing a rift in their friendship (petty detail?). 
Okay, I think rest of the sections can keep their titles, but the trial section needs beefing up! So many details worth adding there, including fact that E! re-enacted the trial scenes daily, tabloid coverage, snazzy Mr. Blackwell-approved outfits daily, pajama mishap, reports of physical/mental deterioation, anticipation of the verdict; really, in my mind, the frenzy over the trial is eerily almost as fervid as frenzy during Thriller era, like a counterbalance to his career. Not an encyclopedic theory, but worth noting for context. 
That's all for now. Sorry to take up so much space. Feel free to comment, edit, delete, whichever. I'll be back to make some comments to the main text if people like my ideas. --Steverino 05:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you Steverino, this article needs beefing up. Aeneiden-Rex 07:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I think u should change the article the way u've written here, it's good.Aeneiden-Rex 14:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree entirely. In all truthfulness, Jackson's career and height of popularity was in the earlier years and those sections should be far larger than the sections regarding recent controversies. There needs to be some work done. But the problem is if Jackson fans make any changes trying to ballance the early years non-Jackson fans tend to call it POV. If the controversies are made larger the Jackson fans get upset and then wars start and nothing gets done. I feel that fact is more important than rumours and possibilities. I'm not saying the controversies do not belong - but this article needs more about Jackson's career not his private/social life - he is afterall an entertainer. :: ehmjay 18:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually disagree a bit and think that it's acceptable to list the controversies in detail. It's part of his legacy, whether fans like it or not. I believe more than 50 million people watched the announcement of the trial verdict, which is about the number of people who have bought the Thriller album (and same number who watched Oprah interview!). So I think the career and the controversy should balance each other out similarly in this article. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that huge chunks of career are done in a few paragraphs whereas the last few years are picked apart year by year. I'll go into the article and edit a bit if I have some time this weekend. 12.149.50.2 22:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh I totally agree that the controversies are nescicary to the article, however as you said, I do not think that they should be the largest section or that is to say they should be balanced out. They are an important part of Jackson's life however so is the music. :: ehmjay 03:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The controversies should be listed, but not too long. It gets boring and most of it is pretty much heresay anyway. Snowbound 12:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with Steverino. I think there should be more rigour and accuracy in the redaction of this article pretending for wikipedia (remember that it can be viewed by millions of people!). And it is nice to adorn the text with references, but they should be used more precisely, as for example in the case of the videoclip Black or White:
In November 1991, Michael Jackson released Dangerous. The major hit from Dangerous was "Black or White". The single was accompanied by a controversial video which featured scenes of a sexual nature as well as violence and racism. The video was banned on most music-television channels until these scenes were removed.[31]
Personally I think this redaction leads to negative misunderstanding. If you go to reference [31], you will find a text stating that the controverse arised from the somewhat violent and sexual scenes in the videoclip, as anyone would also slightly agree to by watching them. However in the article for wikipedia, these aspects are undelicately juxtaposed with "racism".
Another example of unprecision or lack of information leading to prejudice is the description of the whitening of the skin of Michael Jackson. Where can the reader find in the corresponding paragraph (see "1987-1990: Bad and controversies"...) a reference to the official claim by Michael Jackson that he is affected by the vitiligo? This skin condition affects at least one in every hundred people in countries throughout the world Vitiligo Society UK. There are also some photos of Michael Jackson in the 80's-90's where his hands appear with the typical heterogen brown patches on white skin.
Finally the article focuses too much not only on controversial "facts", but also on financial aspects. As far as I know, Michael Jackson is a recognized musician and a person with humanitarian thoughts and actions, even if these aspects are not covered by some parts of the media. I wish the redactor to take more care in this article. 83.59.24.28 16:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some thoughts from a fan 

message: === King of Pop ===
I believe that there should be a reference in the starting sentence of the article to Jackson's fan name "The King of Pop". I THINK that this has been discussed before, but that was a LONG time ago and I wasn't involved in that. Below I will provide evidence as to why I believe a reference should be added. 
1) Other articles with common media/fan-dubbed names:
*Elvis Presley has an extensive 17 words explaining various naming conventions
*Steve McQueen's nickname 'The King of Cool' is given
2) When you type "King of Pop" into Google, the first FIFTEEN hits (the entire first page and half the second) solely relate to Michael Jackson, proving that this nickname is in no way 'unused' or 'rare', but is in fact very much alive and well. 
3) In front of THOUSANDS of fans in Tokyo, Michael Jackson is not only named the 'King of Pop', but also the 'King of Pop, Rock and Soul'. Here's the link 
4) On CNN.com, when "The King of Pop" is typed into search under a Cnn.com search, there are more than 50 pages related to Michael Jackson directly. The link is here, , and it proves that "The King of Pop" is a label still used by the INTERNATIONAL MEDIA when discussing Jackson, and it is used quite frequently. This is no minority fan name. This is a name that is wide spread.
5) In terms of foreign language wikipedias, the following have the nickname 'The King of Pop' in the introduction (I'll put the links here so that you all don't accuse me of lying):
* Spanish Wikipedia 
* French Wikipedia 
* German Wikipedia 
* Swedish Wikipedia 
The 2nd largest language by distribution in the world, French, gives the nickname. German, also a widespread language, gives the nickname. Spanish, still widely spoken in Mediterranean areas as well as foreign communities, gives the nickname. And Swedish Wikipedia, a language abundant in the Nordic countries and Scandinavia, gives the nickname. Obviously it is widespread. If anyone thinks it is not, look at the proof (use Bable Fish Translation if unsure of the languages).
I will be adding more evidence as time passes, as I'm sure many here will be quick to crucify my opinions. --Paaerduag 10:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I swear this page is going back to like it was back in november 2004.--I'll bring the food 20:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can people just stop digging their noses in the past and actually bother to read the evidence, not just blatantly accuse me of stirring up trouble? Read the evidence at LEAST, for God's sake. It is really quite clever what some people here are doing; they are refusing to even COMMENT on this post, therefore making me unable to change ANYTHING, and therefore keeping the nick name out of the title. Clever, but unless you can tell me why we shouldn't have the title in here WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE I HAVE PROVIDED, I don't see why I shouldn't just put it in. --Paaerduag 02:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you reach consensus first before overriding an already agreed consensus.  As it already stands it was decided to remove BOTH well used nicknames, ie. King of Pop and Wacko Jacko.  If you want to re-add one, you will have to be prepared to add the other as AGREED by consensus of all involved parties in this artcle.  I have removed KOP until such time a FRESH consensus is agreed, this is per Wikipedia policy. -- Funky Monkey  (talk)  08:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Ditto Funky Monkey. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 01:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Funky Monkey, I agree we should wait until there is a concensus before we add it into the article, but Paaerduag does make some good points. Perhaps it's time we discuss it again? After all, that is the point of this discussion section. :: ehmjay 10:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both nicknames by which he has been known are fully covered in the article.  Frankly, putting KoP in the lead 'graph only serves, it seems to me, to make the days in which it was apt seem very long ago indeed. Robertissimo 10:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It is absolutely fine to discuss this issue, but it is absolutely not fine for Paaerduag to try to independently overrule the consensus and insert words which have been very contentious and were removed after an agreement was reached during a very, very long debate. Paaerduag needs to negotiate a new consensus if he wants to put the nicknames back in, instead of acting on his own and ignoring the existing one. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 11:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree Sarah. I hadn't realized he had gone and made any changes - which I agree was not a good idea to do before we had discussed it. Anyways - I agree that it is a change worth looking into - but not entirely needed. Either way, I'd love to discuss it (in a calm and reasonable manner).:: ehmjay 18:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: If one traces the origins of "King Of Pop", I beleive it was first used by Elizabeth Taylor when she introduced Michael Jackson at either an awards show or a performance. Now it's no secret that Taylor and Jackson are friends - however that does not mean it was coined by a publicist, nor does is mean it was coined by Taylor herself. Needles to say "Wacko Jacko" is still used, however usually by the mainstream media. I think the most compelling argument for using "King of Pop" is to look at a professional article from a reputable encyclopedia: Encyclopedia Brittanica. Here it mentions "King of Pop" and does not mention Wacko Jacko - while this is not in the introduction of the article it does give clout to the legitimacy of this name. Now, as for the image being shown on the page - that argument is moot. The reason that image is used it that it is Public Domain and the Wiki Rules state that if a public domain image exists, it must be used. There was a period where a photgraph of Jackson accepting his recent award in Japan was used. Personally I don't really care if the "King of Pop" is mentioned in the first paragraph since it is covered in the body of the article. I wouldn't mind seeing it there, however I also don't mind if it's not. I do however think that Wacko Jacko has no place in the opening paragraph whether KoP is there or not. That's just my opinion however. :: ehmjay 23:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion of nicknames 

message: I believe that there should be a reference in the starting sentence of the article to Jackson's fan name "The King of Pop". I THINK that this has been discussed before, but that was a LONG time ago and I wasn't involved in that. Below I will provide evidence as to why I believe a reference should be added. 
1) Other articles with common media/fan-dubbed names:
*Elvis Presley has an extensive 17 words explaining various naming conventions
*Steve McQueen's nickname 'The King of Cool' is given
2) When you type "King of Pop" into Google, the first FIFTEEN hits (the entire first page and half the second) solely relate to Michael Jackson, proving that this nickname is in no way 'unused' or 'rare', but is in fact very much alive and well. 
3) In front of THOUSANDS of fans in Tokyo, Michael Jackson is not only named the 'King of Pop', but also the 'King of Pop, Rock and Soul'. Here's the link 
4) On CNN.com, when "The King of Pop" is typed into search under a Cnn.com search, there are more than 50 pages related to Michael Jackson directly. The link is here, , and it proves that "The King of Pop" is a label still used by the INTERNATIONAL MEDIA when discussing Jackson, and it is used quite frequently. This is no minority fan name. This is a name that is wide spread.
5) In terms of foreign language wikipedias, the following have the nickname 'The King of Pop' in the introduction (I'll put the links here so that you all don't accuse me of lying):
* Spanish Wikipedia 
* French Wikipedia 
* German Wikipedia 
* Swedish Wikipedia 
The 2nd largest language by distribution in the world, French, gives the nickname. German, also a widespread language, gives the nickname. Spanish, still widely spoken in Mediterranean areas as well as foreign communities, gives the nickname. And Swedish Wikipedia, a language abundant in the Nordic countries and Scandinavia, gives the nickname. Obviously it is widespread. If anyone thinks it is not, look at the proof (use Bable Fish Translation if unsure of the languages).
I will be adding more evidence as time passes, as I'm sure many here will be quick to crucify my opinions. --Paaerduag 10:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I swear this page is going back to like it was back in november 2004.--I'll bring the food 20:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can people just stop digging their noses in the past and actually bother to read the evidence, not just blatantly accuse me of stirring up trouble? Read the evidence at LEAST, for God's sake. It is really quite clever what some people here are doing; they are refusing to even COMMENT on this post, therefore making me unable to change ANYTHING, and therefore keeping the nick name out of the title. Clever, but unless you can tell me why we shouldn't have the title in here WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE I HAVE PROVIDED, I don't see why I shouldn't just put it in. --Paaerduag 02:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you reach consensus first before overriding an already agreed consensus.  As it already stands it was decided to remove BOTH well used nicknames, ie. King of Pop and Wacko Jacko.  If you want to re-add one, you will have to be prepared to add the other as AGREED by consensus of all involved parties in this artcle.  I have removed KOP until such time a FRESH consensus is agreed, this is per Wikipedia policy. -- Funky Monkey  (talk)  08:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Ditto Funky Monkey. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 01:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Funky Monkey, I agree we should wait until there is a concensus before we add it into the article, but Paaerduag does make some good points. Perhaps it's time we discuss it again? After all, that is the point of this discussion section. :: ehmjay 10:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Both nicknames by which he has been known are fully covered in the article.  Frankly, putting KoP in the lead 'graph only serves, it seems to me, to make the days in which it was apt seem very long ago indeed. Robertissimo 10:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It is absolutely fine to discuss this issue, but it is absolutely not fine for Paaerduag to try to independently overrule the consensus and insert words which have been very contentious and were removed after an agreement was reached during a very, very long debate. Paaerduag needs to negotiate a new consensus if he wants to put the nicknames back in, instead of acting on his own and ignoring the existing one. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 11:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree Sarah. I hadn't realized he had gone and made any changes - which I agree was not a good idea to do before we had discussed it. Anyways - I agree that it is a change worth looking into - but not entirely needed. Either way, I'd love to discuss it (in a calm and reasonable manner).:: ehmjay 18:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

text: If one traces the origins of "King Of Pop", I beleive it was first used by Elizabeth Taylor when she introduced Michael Jackson at either an awards show or a performance. Now it's no secret that Taylor and Jackson are friends - however that does not mean it was coined by a publicist, nor does is mean it was coined by Taylor herself. Needles to say "Wacko Jacko" is still used, however usually by the mainstream media. I think the most compelling argument for using "King of Pop" is to look at a professional article from a reputable encyclopedia: Encyclopedia Brittanica. Here it mentions "King of Pop" and does not mention Wacko Jacko - while this is not in the introduction of the article it does give clout to the legitimacy of this name. Now, as for the image being shown on the page - that argument is moot. The reason that image is used it that it is Public Domain and the Wiki Rules state that if a public domain image exists, it must be used. There was a period where a photgraph of Jackson accepting his recent award in Japan was used. Personally I don't really care if the "King of Pop" is mentioned in the first paragraph since it is covered in the body of the article. I wouldn't mind seeing it there, however I also don't mind if it's not. I do however think that Wacko Jacko has no place in the opening paragraph whether KoP is there or not. That's just my opinion however. :: ehmjay 23:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  King of Pop 

message: I just visited the Elvis Presley article and "The King of Rock 'n' Roll", as well as "The King" were included in the opening paragraph.
I believe that those titles should be added to both the Madonna and Michael Jackson articles, not just Elvis. Madonna and Michael might have been called that less but they were called that very often throughout their entire careers. Often enough to be included. Israell 20:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  King Of Pop 

message: I would like to know if this source confirming that Thriller has sold approximately 60 million copies is appropriate for the article.  It is a news article from BBC here is the link.--Stardust6000 02:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say yes, to me BBC seems like a pretty credible source. However I'm sure others will argue No, and  will want to continue to use the out of date, inaccurate Guinness number (let me remind everyone that Guinness is not always correct, seeing as they have the run-time of the Thriller video incorrect, and Jackson made 2 other videos that were longer than Thriller, yet it's still credited as the "Longest Music Video") :: ehmjay 15:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The BBC is fine to use as a source. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Well someone has already confirmed that BBC is a fine source. And most sources people use are the Guiness source - most people who reference are using it as their reference (be it any other articles). The fact is the guiness number is out of date and wrong. Stick with the BBC source. :: ehmjay 02:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The BBC are not only extremely reliable but their figure is also the most up-to-date.--Ashadeofgrey (Talk) 19:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

text: 81.156.67.125: under our guidelines, the BBC is considered a reliable source and we may use it as a reference for verifiying information. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

text: There is one link (BBC) that mentions 60m (excluding the MJ fansite), and all others, like Rock n Roll Hall of Fame, World Music Awards, specify 50m+. BBC is a credible source most of the time, but also can be a non-credible source also. They recently reported Boney M selling 800 million albums. What needs to happen is weight has to be given to articles on believability. As WMA is 2006, and MJ is attending, I would consider this far more reliable.
Here is an article from fox news that confirms Thriller has sold 60 million copies worldwide.  As said before the 50 million sources are using the over a decade old Guinness estimate.  I think that a news source is a better indication of sales than your opinion.  This fox news sources is from this year.--Stardust6000 14:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  POV has clouded judgement here. If the article by BBC was so fantastically accurate, why was there not a rush to amend 'downwards' Jacksons worldwide sales that were also mentioned. The arguement was that it was not a reliable source compared to more credible links. Wikipedia is supposedly based on factual information, not one-off inaccurate links. Nor are fan sites reliable as they push up figures. If I were to write a fan site on Sid Vicious and claim he said a trillion copies, does that make it right? No it says it's not credible. Also continually amending each wiki site with the data without any credible links was close to being vandelism Maggott2000 04:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worldwide sales of Thriller 

message: Ugh guys, I know Michael Jackson claimed 104 million sold for Thriller recently, but this figure is highly dubious. Furthermore, Guinness does not corroborate that at all; I believe Guinness gives a figure of 51 million or something. Right now that's the most reliable number; the real figure may be something between 50 million and 60 million, but definitely not over 100 million.UberCryxic 22:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: no it's 104 million these days. Believe me, MTV vouches. We were also all rather blown back, given the fanboys were like "it's 60 million!!!!! not 50!!!!" but i think mtv vouches for the new figure.--I'll bring the food 21:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I did a search on Factiva and I couldn't find a single article supporting the claim that it was over 100 million. There were heaps of articles about Jackson and the Guiness records but not a single one that supported that figure. I'd want to see some pretty solid evidence before I bought it. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 21:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He told the squealing audience, "I am greatly humbled by this award. When we created 'Thriller' my dream was for it to be the biggest selling album ever, and God has answered my prayers - 25 years later and it's sold 104 million copies. I thank God and I thank you." from  - good enough for me. --I'll bring the food 00:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't find an article written like a blog and containing the words "Well done, dude..." a very credible source to use as our only reference. I would be happier if we could find newspaper reports. Surely a figure that high would have been reported in the mainstream press. I don't think it should be that hard to come up with some decent sources to support that information and I think it's important that we do find some solid sources because this is obviously something that is going to be contested. Even if we accept that article, it seems that the source of this information is Michael himself. Like UberCryxic, I would like to see some independent and reliable verification of this and not just a quote from Michael. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 00:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

text: While I agree that Jackson may not be the most credible source, most of those sources have not been updated in years. As I posted a while back, a Press Release from MJNI (I'm awear its a fan news network...) stated the 104 million copies number before jackson made his speech. I'm not sure if it can count as a source, but it did say it. According to this source the certificate from Guiness states the 104 million copies number.  :: ehmjay 02:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: New sales figures

message: I just watched the World Music Awards broadcast, and it mentions at least twice that Thriller has sold at least 104 million copies... I know that the number in the article is 104 million but this should help silence all those naysayers. :: ehmjay 03:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: whats that got to do with it. If guiness suddenly claimed BlackLaces party album sold 210 million would you believe it? Probably not and I dount guiness will ever print this, but everyone knows that this outsold any MJ album.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.65.39.59 (talk) 03:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  104 Million Thrillers 

message: Does anyone know the reason he wears white tape on the end of some of his fingers? I cant find out anywhere!
:To highlight the movements of his fingers when he's dancing. Similiar to the reasons why he wears the single glove and white socks. Street walker 08:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, that's his armband. He said he will wear the armband as long as there are children suffering in the world. Street walker 09:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  White Tape? 

message: !04 Millions... doesn´t this look a bit high?, i mean, a few weeks ago it was around the 50-60 and now it has doubled. The only country that keeps a reliable count of the record sales is the US and it has sold 27 millions there . There is pretty good correlation between the records sold in america and the records sold worldwide:
Back in Black 
US: 21 Worldwide 42.        x2
Eagles Greatest hits
US: 29 Worldwide: 51        x1.8
Led Zeppelin IV
US: 23 Worldwide: ~ 35      x1.5
Shania Twain Come on Over
US: 20 Worldwide: 28        x1.4
Appetite for Destruction
US: 15 Worldwide: +25       x +1.7
... Baby one more time
US: 15 worldwide: 28       x 1.9
The Dark Side Of The Moon
US: 15 Worldwide 40+       x 2-3
(I have avoided using double albums)
Thriller
US: 27 Worldwide 104       x 3.8
Hard to believe but possible, but what is almost impossible to believe is
He has only sold 60.5 in the US and his PR claims 750 millions more that 12 times... 
83.33.246.250 02:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good research. Emphasis on the word 'claims'. However, his PR must have got the figure from 'somewhere' one assumes. I like the logical thought put into your discussion.60.234.242.196 01:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sorry, we can't use original research on Wikipedia.--AshadeofgreyTalk 09:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sales figures 

message: What should be the birth name and what should be the also known as?
BMI  and a court document  indicated Michael Joe Jackson. Israell 08:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article needs revising 

message: Michael Jackson's career has been listed as Singer-songwriter, Record Producer, Arranger and Actor. But Michael Jackson is also a dancer and choreographer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ben Scarr (talk • contribs) 18:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is he doing now, does he still work? 66.246.72.108 22:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right now he's working as a recording artist, record producer, songwriter and arranger. I dare say that after the new album comes out in fall (Northen Hemisphere), he will also be a dancer, choreographer and performer. Street walker 13:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occupation 

message: Michael Jackson's record labels are stated as Motown (1968–1976), Sony (1977-2000), Epic (2001–2006). This isn't accurate.
Epic Records is a label of Sony, and Michael Jackson was signed to Sony's Epic label from 1976-2006, as The Jacksons releaesed their self-titled album in 1976. When Michael Jackson signed with Sony/Epic (the CBS/Epic, as Sony bought CBS in 1990-91) in 1976, as part of Th Jacksons, he also signed a contract for an option for record a solo album.
So Michael Jackson's record labels shoud be ......
Motown (1968-1976)
Sony/Epic (1976-2006) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ben Scarr (talk • contribs) 11:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Record Labels 

message: I think there was way too much info about 2006-current. That's why I divided it up into 2006 and 2007. But there is still a helluva lot of stuff about 2006. Most it is just trivial news stories. I'm sure all of that can be shortened to a couple of paragraphs. Stuff that struck me was how much info there is about the founding of his own company and the WMA's. That sort of stuff should be in seperate articles about the Michael Jackson companu and the 2006 World Music Awards. I'll try, but I need some people to help me cut down the section on 2006. Street walker 16:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much info about 2006 

message: 100 years from now, if someone asks, "Who's Michael Jackson", the answer would be "He was a musician".
So I believe, that the weight of this article should be to describe Michael Jackson's musical career.
It is pathetic that this man's amazing musical career of 25 years before the allegations, is summarised in a few concise sentences, and a huge paragraph has been devoted to explaining the gory details of the next 15 years.
Of course, the controversies surrounding the trial should be mentioned, as long as the facts are stated first. Speculation & rumour should be mentioned, and it should be made clear that they are indeed speculation.
But if the controversy and the negative image is to be included, then it is only fair to include the many years of public adoration as well.
The vitiligo problem has not been mentioned at all, when this is the reason given for his colour change. There are numerous photos available, where you can very clearly see that he does indeed suffer from a skin disorder. Why has this not been mentioned??
I feel that this is one of the worst Wikipedia articles. Totally biased and just running with the current media attitude towards this man. You don't even have to be a fan to see it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drleo35 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Very unbalanced article 

message: gangsta 2 a newer version of gangsta has surfaced and michael sings verses solo and uninterrupted —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.110.248 (talk) 17:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  new recording surfaced on youtube 

message: a new version of gangsta has just surfaced on youtube and has more of michaels vocals —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.110.248 (talk) 18:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  a newer version of gangsta has surfaced on youtube 

message: i discovered new song on youtube "gangsta 2" contains michael's solo vocals for a couple of verses —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.110.248 (talk) 18:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  michael jackson and tempamental new song 

message: I would like you to include this video in the text. It's very important in order to spell out his innocence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2V5bDIlUFI —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.182.111.109 (talk) 09:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proof Of Michael Jacksons Innocence 

message: the rolling stones magazine has today confirmed that jackson and will.i.am have drafted 8 tracks together and are continuing to work on tracks, jackson has emphasized that he wants to produce amazing melodies, one of these tracks will be called 'i'm dreamin'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.92.170 (talk) 14:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI we already have an article on this, Michael Jackson's 2007 album. Sarah 06:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2007 album 

message: www.exclusivemj.com go to news, and the latest news article is 'details emerge about michael's new album'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.125.88 (talk) 18:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2007 album  

message: michael jackson will be on american idol for a week soon, as part of launching him back in to the public eye, and to lend his talents to the show. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.18.83 (talk) 18:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  michael jackson on tv 

message: A few months ago, I wanted to include the "King of Pop" sobriquet in the lead, given how widespread it is in popular culture. My additions were opposed because they were viewed as violating the neutrality of the article and because they were thought to open up a can of worms (ie. should we also include 'Wacko Jacko' and other demeaning names?). Well, I'm back to tackle the issue. I was informed then that no nicknames were allowed in the lead based on a prior decision by the community. I perfectly understand that, although I disagree with the conclusion reached, hence why I'm "reopening" the case, if you will. I merely want for us to reconsider that decision and to examine some reasons for why we should or should not include the "King of Pop" in the lead as opposed to other references for Michael Jackson. At this point I am merely looking for a conversation, although eventually I would like to see some executive action reminiscent of Rousseau's general will. Anyway, let me offer some suggestions for why KOP should be included and Wacko Jacko should not:
1. This article has been written by trying to note a distinction between Michael Jackson's personal life and his music career. In that sense, it is trying to balance the two. Unfortunately, it covers Michael Jackson's personal life in far more too detail than is necessary. I actually mean something concrete by this: it does not represent a global viewpoint, literally. It may represent an overly American viewpoint. In the United States, Michael Jackson's popularity has declined since the 1980s and early 1990s, but internationally he is still quite popular. In fact, internationally, most people still recognize Michael Jackson based on his musical accomplishments, not what he may have done in his private life. How does this relate to the nickname? Well, that nickname is really being excised from the lead because it violates an American requirement on NPOV, not a global one. However, Wikipedia requires the latter. 
2. The name 'Wacko Jacko' is a term mostly restricted to British media. The odd thing about this fact is that Michael Jackson is very popular in Britain itself, as evidenced by the success of "Number Ones," which sold better across than pond than here and did superbly on the charts. The range of use of 'Wacko Jacko' clearly pales in comparison with KOP. It seems that, in trying to offer all relevant viewpoints, we are actually snuffing out the main one: Michael Jackson is better known as KOP rather than 'Wacko Jacko.' Wacko Jacko should not be included in the lead because, although it is a nickname for Michael Jackson, it is not a relevant one. We are supposed to give majority opinion due weight, and it seems that we are confusing the fact that even people who don't like Michael Jackson still consider him as the KOP. That is, there is no connection between wanting to present all major viewpoints and striking out KOP from the lead. Even those who are critical of Michael Jackson still know the KOP label, and I would presume that they recognize it is far more prominent and widespread than Wacko Jacko, even though they may not agree with all the connotations of the label. 
3. Recentism is a big issue for many Wikipedia articles, this one primary among them. No doubt many people's perceptions and ideas about Michael Jackson took some sort of concrete form during the trial period, and Wikipedia "necessarily" had to include these, but the great thing about perceptions, especially flimsy ones such as these, is that they change. As someone stated before, in 100 years Michael Jackson will mostly be remembered for his music, not for his personal life (this will be true by virtue of his international status that I highlighted above). In 100 years, if Wikipedia is around for that long, and it will be because it's so damn awesome, this article will look very different. Now, I'm not suggesting that we be 100 years avant garde, but I am suggesting that we take the first step, and including KOP in the lead would be a very good first step. 
Anyway, thank you for listening. Let's have a good, clean discussion on this and see if some actual changes can materialize. Eventually we might have a vote or something, but for right now let's just see where people fall on this issue.UberCryxic 00:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both or nothing for the sake of neutrality.  Funky Monkey  (talk)  03:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

text: FM has already answered you. That means 1 for, 1 against. That's not anything near a consensus for you to add it back in. Until a new consensus is formed, the current one stands. Sarah 09:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

text: What if something were written like "Jackson is oft regarded as the King of Pop due to his [groundbreaking music or fame or whatever]"?  This would be kind of like Elvis, where it's undeniable who the King of Pop is.  This would also not establish it as a nickname, but more of a status.  "Wacko Jacko" is not a nickname due to the iconic music, but rather due to an event.  Wacko Jacko is also colloquial (it states it's used mainly in Britain, and I've never heard it), and could be seen as a neologism, which should be avoided.   --MPD T / C 18:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This claim that WJ is only used in the UK is not true. I've removed the claim in the article that this it is most commonly used by the British media because it is not only untrue but is unsupported by the cited source. The source says that during the 1980s "the British tabloids delighted in calling him "Wacko Jacko"." That is totally different to saying that now WJ "is mostly used by the British media". It is inaccurate, it isn't what the source says and it is untrue. Anyone with access to Factiva will be able to tell you that there are many thousands of references to jackson being called WJ and they aren't specific to one particular nation or region. Sarah 12:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Sounds pretty good and fair.  It seems that there isn't much consensus on the issue, so polling will give everyone a clearer view of what's at hand.  Although I do have a few issues with the way this straw poll is set up; although I support the general idea.  But remember to stay civil and stay cool.  For the most part, let's get a fresh discussion with a good idea of where everyone stands. --MPD T / C 04:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Nothing wrong with change...

message: I have reviewed everything regarding the decisions made on this issue. Ignoring the confused statements of some editors back then, many of which are not even here anymore, but some which still are, a warning should be given on the amazingly duplicitous nature of the straw poll that adjudicated this matter. The straw poll, which you can see here, was created by a user named Manboobies, who apparently no longer participates in Wikipedia. Anyway, that's irrelevant, but what is relevant is his or her maneuvering, which smacks of trickery. 
What do I mean? First of all, although it may not have been an established rule back then (I don't know), users usually should agree what authority the straw poll has and what it is deciding, all of this before the straw poll actually happens. This user, however, took the initiative and opened the poll on his or her own terms. This is what users were deciding on, which, again, was completely established by this sole user: "Please vote below whether you would like to keep or remove the words "Wacko Jacko" in the lead, if you vote for their removal, "King of Pop" would also be removed for brevity." This particular user voted "keep," and from the bias in the original statement, you can easily tell why. Notice how silly this requirement is: if you vote to remove Wacko Jacko from the lead, you're also de facto voting to remove King of Pop. Some users explicitly clarified what they meant by their vote, which the initial conditions did not allow for, but most did not. So the poll was skewed towards favoring Wacko Jacko, which would either be kept or removed, but if it was removed, then it would take down King of Pop along with it automatically. Also, what the hell, pardon my language, does "for brevity" mean? This is not an issue that should be concluded under the impulse of "brevity." Issues of NPOV are being discussed right now, but this user apparently did not use that language; he or she was apparently more concerned with "brevity," which I find odd if it accurately describes his or her ontological position, which is not that clear anyway. But that precise uncertainty makes this straw poll bogus; there was little to no thought given to making it and it's understandable why: it was made completely by one person that originally established conditions unfavorable to Michael Jackson.UberCryxic 17:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: On this so-called "consensus"

message: Per my concerns above, relating to the fact that the previous straw poll was inappropriate, I think it is best if we start a new process for resolving this issue, one which will be more comprehensive and definitive. For this new straw poll, we are first going to do something that the previous one did not do: agree to what the poll is deciding before we start voting. This will ensure that everyone realizes what's at stake when they vote. We will just toss around some proposals in the beginning. If, after about a week or so, we are in agreement regarding the authority of the poll, then we can go ahead and start voting. My proposals are as follows:
*The straw poll should have executive authority based on plurality. This means that the choice that gets more votes than any other should be implemented.
*The straw poll should last for one week. The decision reached should be binding for four months, after which it can be reviewed and contested. 
*Only users registered for at least a month on Wikipedia that have amassed 100 or more edits can participate in the voting, although there will also be a discussion section for all other concerned individuals to voice their opinions. 
*Only the nicknames King of Pop and Wacko Jacko are under consideration, and they are only under consideration in the lead. 
*The straw poll should give four options, which are the following:
**KeepIN - This means that you want both King of Pop and Wacko Jacko in the lead. 
**KeepOUT - This means that you want both King of Pop and Wacko Jacko out of the lead. 
**KeepKOP - This means that you want only King of Pop in the lead. 
**KeepWACKO - This means that you want only Wacko Jacko in the lead. 
So those are my ideas for now (I might come up with something else later). Please let me know what you think about this, and also offer your own thoughts! Thank you very much.
Update: I added a new requirement on who can take part in the voting.UberCryxic 17:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds pretty good and fair.  It seems that there isn't much consensus on the issue, so polling will give everyone a clearer view of what's at hand.  Although I do have a few issues with the way this straw poll is set up; although I support the general idea.  But remember to stay civil and stay cool.  For the most part, let's get a fresh discussion with a good idea of where everyone stands. --MPD T / C 04:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moving forward

message: I am officially still supporting the poll idea above, but Sarah suggested that I offer something here about what I would want specifically. Ok, basically: it doesn't have to go in the first sentence. It can be meshed in somewhere in the second or third paragraph and it does not have to be in bold. I think these are reasonable concessions given some other articles (like that of Elvis, which is screaming out "LOOK AT ME I'M THE KING OF ROCK AND ROLL"). It should read something like "For his contributions to the music industry, he is known by fans and some media as the King of Pop." I will also highlight what those contributions are (his moves, vocals, etc).UberCryxic 21:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal

message: michael jackson has just released a new book called 'my world', the book contains lots of exclusive photos and contains the lyrics to the new and unreleased song 'you are so beautiful', which is going to be on his new album-the lyrics are absolutly brilliant! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.52.69 (talk) 14:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's hope it sells as well as "Invincible"! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HarveyCarter (talk • contribs) 18:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I doubt that somehow.--Crestville 17:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: 2007 will become 2008, do we need this much information on his new album? it hasn't even been released yet.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 00:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  breaking news 2007 album 

message: only just discovered in the paper tonight there is 'michael jackson's most shocking moments' on the biography channel at 10pm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.18.159 (talk) 21:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  mj on tv 

message: I think someone should write an article about the 1993 song with Eddie Murphy called watzupwitu, I have lots of information on the song. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.104.174 (talk) 11:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  1993 song:watzupwitu 

message: Hip-hop Producer Tempamental has recording a new track with Pras (fugees) & Michael Jackson. "Tempamental - No Friend Of Mine feat. Pras Michel & Michael Jackson" the link is http://www.myspace.com/tempamental. The track is a mixture of hip-hop and latin music and features a strong chorus and a hair raising verse from Michael Tt is rumoured the track will feature in Pras' new album and has recieved 100% positive feedback on Tempamental's website. The King is Back!
Badmansami 14:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New 2007 Michael Jackson Track 

message: The intro to the article contains demonstrably false information. Jackson has sold around 300 million records worldwide, not 750 million, and "Thriller" has sold a maximum of 51 million copies, not 104 million. This needs to be corrected since Jackson doesn't even approach the sales of Elvis Presley, Bing Crosby and The Beatles. (HarveyCarter 18:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Actual figures

message: I see that since I got this article GA passed somebody has removed almost everything on the 2003 case to the point where you wouldn't have known it had happened from reading the page. This is completely disgusting and smacks of utter ridiculous behaviour. On the one hand I'm sitting here reading how UberCryxic thinks it's not at all out of the question to have "King of Pop" in the lead, but apparently he doesn't seem to mind that almost all the information on the 2003 trial has completely disappeared. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't revert this wholesale back to the GA passed version of the article, because that was the last time this article didn't suck.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 04:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disgusting fan gushing crud

message: I really don't think it's necessary that 'before plastic surgery' is added to the picture. I mean, just a year is sufficient. Such observations should be made in the appropriate articles and/or sections, not the intro. I believe the comment draws bias attention to the physical appearance of michael jackson. Why not say for example, "during the Off the Wall era"? I mean, that would be biased towards his career over his personal life. So I think that just leaving it at a year is sufficient. --Paaerduag 12:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Off the Wall didn't begin until 1979. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HarveyCarter (talk • contribs) 12:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of plastic surgery in intro pic caption 

message: is michael jackson really touring in 2008, does any one know anything i don't? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.40.105 (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2008 world tour 

message: Ok, I have rewritten the third paragraph. I have done this because the lead did a really bad at job at telling people why Michael Jackson was such a huge music star. It basically listed a few awards, something about Thriller, and so on. What used to be the second paragraph is now the third, and the new second paragraph essentially highlights MJ's contributions to the music industry over his career. I have the followed the model from the articles of many other famous musicians, like that of Elvis and the Beatles. Overall, I believe the new addition is fairly balanced and appropriate.UberCryxic 01:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New paragraph

message: My guess is that we should remove posts from HarveyCarter and his sockpuppets, rather than respond to them. Many of them are in violation of WP:BLP, and some were posted after the main account was blocked indefinitely. If there are lots of replies, it gets harder to remove just some posts from a thread, as the replies will no longer make any sense. ElinorD (talk) 18:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Only edits made after the ban can be removed. Some other edits that are clearly against the BLP policy can be removed. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up ® 19:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HarveyCarter and his sockpuppets 

message: This article should really be renamed. It may as well be called "The Controversies of Michael Jackson". This article deals with EACH AND EVERY LAW SUIT AGAINST HIM, and EVERY LITTLE DETAIL OF ALL HIS SCANDALS in precise accuracy. However, his ACHIEVEMENTS ARE SKIMMED OVER LIKE THEY MEAN NOTHING. Isn't that extremely unfair, considering he won a Diamond award and has the biggest selling album of ALL TIME? I think it's plain disrespectful for Michael, and that it portrays him as something he's not. This man, Michael Jackson, is a MUSICIAN, not anything else (remember there was a trial and the verdict was NOT GUILTY, for those of you (ie HarveyCarter) who have chosen not to move on) and that we must write the article with GREATER emphasis on his music, because it is THAT which defines him. The problem is, if anyone tries to remove some of the content about his scandals, which is ludicrously OVER THE TOP, it is reverted. This article has become a one sided stagnation because people want the scandals to have precedence. I encourage people to stop this however, and to place greater emphasis on this man's remarkable music career. The rest of the internet may consider him a freak, but here on wikipedia, we are an unbiased, truthful, non-slander encyclopedia site, and we should not get caught up in scandals and instead focus on Michael's real achievements. So add as much sourced material about his remarkable career as you can, and please remove redundant, unnotable scandal details etc. There are ARTICLES dedicated to his controversies already. Please, don't let this become like all the other garbage on the internet. We need to stop this article sinking into the hole of criticisms and slander that the rest of the internet and arguably other respected media outlets have fallen into. --Paaerduag 23:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias Nature of this Article 

message: "Michael Jackson has been awarded numerous honors including the World Music Award's Best-Selling Pop Male Artist of the Millennium, American Music Award's Artist of the Century Award[6] and the Bambi Award's Pop Artist of the Millennium Award.[7] He is a double-inductee of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (once as a member of The Jackson 5 in 1997, and as a solo artist in 2001)[8] and an inductee of the Songwriters Hall of Fame."[9] 
This is significant why would it be taken out of the intro and not mentioned anywhere else unless someone enlightens me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kelvin Martinez (talk • contribs) 02:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This is significant. 

message: should there be more information on this? because he has arrived in japan for fan appreciation events and many believe this is the first stage of his comeback —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.96.76 (talk) 17:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  michael jackson in japan 

message: All the additions in my absence had 0 sources and the intro was truly horrific. Parts were not even from the VH1 article they were sourced from, and they weren't acceptable anyway. Seriously, if you think quoting VH1's clearly biased article is suitable for an encyclopedia you are wrong. We're aiming for FA status, not for the removal of our existing GA status.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 22:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "His distinctive vocals, style, and moves have inspired a whole generation of hip hop, pop, and R&B artists, including Beyoncé Knowles, Usher, Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, Omarion, Ne-Yo, and Chris Brown, among others" source? And the bit about him inventing the robot. Do tell where the VH1 article says that.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 03:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: "that have redefined the limits of physical expression" - this is definately not a fact, either. Marlon Brando in a streetcar named desire, maybe, do you have a source for that?--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 01:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: "Michael Jackson is widely regarded as one of the greatest entertainers and popular recording artists in modern times," - the source attributed does not contain that text anywhere. You do realise that making a claim it does is a serious miscarriage and vandalism of this articles intent?--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 02:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: RM intro and rewrite of article minus sources

message: I want to know the source of this image. Important event or not, the source of this image may dictate that it is being used improperly here.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 01:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The mug shot is fair game. It's in the right section. I don't have qualms about the images, merely the source of the abuse one. I'm a little distracted by their poor positioning tho, i don't like where they've been shoved.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 00:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: michael's right arm.jpg

message: You should be aware that there now is consensus for the inclusion of this label in the lead above all others. I invited potentially dissenting opinion (like Sarah) to comment on this, but beyond suggesting that I offer a statement to resolve this issue, she did not say anything. As a result, there was unanimous support for KOP to be featured in the lead alone.UberCryxic 02:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry, but you do not get to place what you like in the lead just because you gave it 3 days and nobody said anything, and referring to Sarah Ewart as a "potentially dissenting opinion" is revoltingly informative of your drastic POV in editing this article. There is NO consensus, and beating people down until they can't be arsed to reply is not CREATING ONE. I can't also believe that you chose to post that on my talk page and I had to copy it here.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 02:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, whether or not Sarah is/was there at the time is irrelevant. The sentence and similar types were struck down for a good reason, because none of us agreed. I'll tell you what tho, if you like, I'll let it back if you put verbatim what the  VH1 article said, ie that he made the KOP name up himself.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 02:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, I disagree fundamentally with the sentence, he made up the name the VH1 source says he did. I disagree that there was a consensus. And whether there was one is irrelevant. I disagree and I'm here now, there is clearly no longer a consensus, and I will revert out that particular addition.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 02:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, you have partially fixed it, but the parts about him inventing/perfecting the robot are just not sourced. You have added depth on his accomplishments as a black man in a white dominated 80's, but the rest is just not sourceable, and I worry because this is a GA article, if the GA status is removed, it will mean my only article I have got to this state has been reverted. I don't want to see that.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 03:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

text: If you can find a decent source you should and can re-add them, but not unless you do.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 03:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: King of Pop

message: I have an idea!! How about we go about this democratically, even though someone is bound to tell me that wikipedia is not a democracy. Whatever, I think we should put it to vote. There seems to be legitimate arguments on both sides. Why not, much like an administrator's request for adminship, have a 'support', 'oppose', and 'neutral' section in which opinions can be aired? the only 'dissenting' user above was I'll bring the food, no one else. maybe there are more, so how about it? democratic? is there anything inhernatly WRONG with going about reaching a concensus in this way, because things i do tend to be taken in the wrong way. Anyhow, I'll found this little section below, and encourage people to use it to reach a NEW consensus. By the way, senseless deletion of this section is unjustified as it DOES have EVERYTHING to do with the article. so, here it is:
NB: Please add comments by putting an asterix before them, and please only put ONE entry under ONE section. Also, please no sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry as it will be discovered and neutralized. --Paaerduag 04:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A vote means nothing, there is nothing stopping sockpuppets, ip addresses and those with an intention to disrupt from disarraying and making a ridicule of the entire situation. --I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 00:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should We or Shouldn't We Put the Nickname 'King of Pop' in the Introduction of the Michael Jackson Article? 

message: We should remove some information, we list all 8 awards from the guinness people, and devote a sentence to the world music awards. It's not important. he recieved even more in the past but we didn't fill the article up with the ones he got in the 90's. In fact we practically gloss over the 90's. There's an article about rewards for michael jackson, with no sources or decent information, I say we make all the awards one sentence long, cut out all the detail and put it in the article on his achievements and what-have-you.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 00:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then maybe he shouldn't put himself in a position to be accused of pederasting children multiple times.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 01:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: awards mentions in recent periods over the top

message: I just reverted two things: a change identifying Michael Jackson's race in the first sentence and his ranking by Rolling Stone in their recent "Immortals" list. The first was reverted because Wikipedia articles are supposed to be written in a global perspective, and on that count, Jackson's nationality is more important than his race. In the United States, because of the color barriers that he broke, his race is obviously more important, but if we were to adopt that standard, we'd be essentially adopting an American-centric viewpoint. I reverted the second change because it is, frankly, irrelevant; Rolling Stone ranked Jackson as 35th. That's not impressive at all, to say nothing of the ludicrous position he was given (clearly he belongs much higher, but Rolling Stone has never exactly been a huge fan of Michael Jackson). I will reiterate my call that we delete that fourth paragraph mentioning his awards; I think it is useless and has no encyclopedic value.UberCryxic 00:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: My reverts today

message: (excerpt) - Michael Jackson .... popularizing and displaying new techniques, like the robot and the moonwalk, that have redefined mainstream entertainment.
This is not true.  The 'moonwalk' and the 'robot' dance moves have not redefined mainstream entertainment.
Haha yes they have. Those and the general way in which Michael Jackson moves have actually redefined the limits of physical expression, but that latter phrase was thought to be way too heady to include in the lead, so it was removed.UberCryxic 16:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, dear, the anon is right. Jackson's dances have not redefined mainstream entertainment. In fact, i've said multiple times it lacks GA quality but you continue to resist.--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 01:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "robot and moonwalk redefining mainstream entertainment" 

message: I believe that, like the Elvis article, King of Pop should be right after Michael's name at the very start of the article. The name is extremely widespread, and King of Pop is almost always used to refer to Michael. Anyone agree? could we maybe reach a new concensus? Anyway, any opinions would be appreciated because I really think it belongs right after his name. After all, this article is a rubbish dump of recentism and hosts an anti-michael streak which is disgusting and offensive to poor michael. So I really don't think that King of Pop - which was coined by Liz Taylor NOT BY JACKSON as some claim - is biased in anyway. It is, and will always be, attributed to the true King of Pop, Michael Joseph Jackson. --Paaerduag 10:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It can be construed as a synonym, and I see it as such, which means that it should be in the first paragraph (not necessarily the third, fourth, and fifth words of the article) and in boldface.  Per MOS:BOLD, it shouldn't be italicised, but rather bolded.  --MPD T / C 22:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  King of Pop After Michael's Name (or thereabouts in the first paragraph)