Talk:Guzmán

message: The last name Guzman, comes originally from Germany's Guttmans, which means "good man" from Germany Guttmans moved to Great Britain as Goodmans and from England to Spain as Guzmans, the spanish pronunciation of Goodman.70.45.33.190 21:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In modern German it would be spelled Gutmann, in Gothic, where it probably originated, it would be gutman. It meant a man who was apt esp. at warfare. A guzmán was in the Middle Ages a privileged rank for a nobleman who did military service . Guzmán was originally (and still is) a first name. One famous example is Guzmán de Alfarache, protagonist of a picaresque novel by Mateo Alemán. The surname may in part come from the village, but the village was probably named after someone called Guzmán in the first place so the article is misleading.--87.162.37.183 (talk) 19:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That the name has anything to do with "good man" is nothing but a 'just so story'.  All early appearances of the name are to "de Guzman" - i.e. of Guzman, a place.  As to it originally being a given name, it just ain't so.  I don't find a single case of the name being so used prior to the fictional Guzman de Alfarache, and I would suspect that, like with Ivanhoe, Athos, Porthos, Aramis, d'Artagnan, Cyrano de Bergerac, and various similar heroes, this character is simply being referred to by his surname alone (as with the ambassador to Britain, Guzman de Silva, who frequently appears as such, but whose given name was Diego). The name appears as a toponymic surname as early as the late 12th century. Are you aware of cases of it as a given name earlier? Agricolae (talk) 11:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Atienza 1959 (which is a standard source for Spanish nobility names isn't it?) 950AD. Added to article. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:07, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The brothers Garcia Carraffa are no longer considered to be reliable on the origins of nobility, and thus anyone who repeats their myth about a germanic origin to the surname is likewise not to be trusted.  That Atienza writing in 1948 (before the modern era of Iberian critical history, is basing his description on the writings of "Don Servando, Obispo de Orense", supposedly the confessor of the last Visigoth king, is damning: the Nobilario of the bishop was actually a creation of the 18th century, and the ancient attribution had been recognized as fraudulent as early as Amador de los Ríos writing in 1803. Surnames, as such, didn't even arise in Iberia until the reign of Alfonso VI.  The earliest nobleman to be found using the Guzmán name is Rodrigo Muñoz de Guzmán, who first appears in 1134 - see Gonzalo Martínez Díez, Gonzalo. Orígenes familiares de Santo Domingo, los linajes de Aza y Guzmán. in Luis Vicente Díez Martín and Cándido Aniz Iriarte, eds., Santo Domingo de Caleruega en sus contexto socio-político, 1170-1221. (Monumenta Histórica Iberoamericana de la Orden de Predicadores, 5) 161-190 (1994) for a description of the earliest generations of the noble family.  If you want to report the germanic origin as an old family legend reported in the 18th and 19th centuries, fine, but that is all it is, a family foundation myth based on wishful thinking by overenthusiastic 'historians'. Agricolae (talk) 18:39, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Agricolae, thanks for adding this reference, Gonzalo. Orígenes familiares de Santo Domingo, los linajes de Aza y Guzmán (1994) to article. If I can make an observation - given that this Garcia Carraffa explanation, and versions of it are so widely prevalent in books, including modern books, and given that the above was raised in 2009, it would have been helpful to have a source in 2009, rather than unreferenced claims as the article was. The earlier references are still notable and I will incorporate them. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Oculi, as long as we are sharing observations, I will make a few too.  Time is finite and when in 2009 a load of obvious abject nonsense was rolled out on this Talk page with no more support than two personal web pages, one belonging to a tarot card reader, I was not about to waste my time refuting it.  The earlier claims are still patently absurd, and we should give them the same weight as we give on a page about mammalian reproduction the equally discredited theory that one can spontaneously generate mice by placing wet grain under a cloth in a dark corner. Salazar y Castro traces some of the Guzmans back to an exiled son of a Byzantine emperor, and we don't need to mention that either.  It's not like Martinez Diez discovered their true origin - scholars had already accepted for decades that all of these toponymic surnames were exactly that, and arose ~1100 or later, but that the 17th, 18th and 19th century genealogical hacks with all of their sometimes well-meaning, sometimes shameless invented pedigrees had made a monumental mess of things.  Martinez Diez just issued a scholarly dismissal of all of the wishful-thinking pedigrees assigned to Rodrigo Munoz by earlier genealogists and explicitly indicated that he was the first of that name and the founder of the family. Agricolae (talk) 01:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. But as we both know unfortunately WP is not about WP:TRUTH it is about sources. As you see I added a second source, Santo Domingo de Caleruega en su contexto socio-político: 1170-1221, supporting what you say. Thanks for your edits here. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It is based on reliable sources, and sources known to have made things up do not exactly qualify.  In this case, I would go so far as to call this German/Goth material FRINGE.  That being said, what you ahve added is not a second source.  I somehow got the wrong pages in my database.  In fact, ref's 5,6 & 7 are all representing the same article in different ways.  The correct pages are 173-228.  Agricolae (talk) 01:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean Cándido Aniz Iriarte, Luis Vicente Díaz Martín Santo Domingo de Caleruega en su contexto socio-político: 1170-1221 1994 Page 197 "No tenemos elementos para identificar con seguridad al Munio o Nuño, que fue el padre de nuestro don Rodrigo Muñoz o Núñez de Guzmán, primer caballero que usa el apelativo Guzmán." actually is the article, or cites the artice? If it cites, it is a second source. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I mean it is the article.  Again, the current refs 5,6 & 7 in our Guzman page are referring to the identical article by Gonzalo Martínez Díez, "Orígenes familiares de Santo Domingo, los linajes de Aza y Guzmán", published in the collection Santo Domingo de Caleruega en sus contexto socio-político, 1170-1221, Luis Vicente Díez Martín and Cándido Aniz Iriarte, editors, (part of the series, Monumenta Histórica Iberoamericana de la Orden de Predicadores, number 5), published by Jornadas de estudios medievales, Salamanca, 1994, on pages 173-228. Agricolae (talk) 03:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep. Fixed. Leave the rest to you. But please leave the old theory, even wrong it is notable. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Guttman

message: http://www.cic.ipn.mx/aguzman/  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.100.5.93 (talk) 21:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  A pioneer in computer vision 3D processing