Talk:Chuvash people

message: Well, this edit was made by regarding my edit was... "vandalism"?! I wouldn't say anything about that remove simply because maybe adding "...are a Turkic people" was not necessary at all. But it is well-known they're Turkic people so that everything links them to Turkic origin, too. I find it ridicilous how it was regarded as "vandalism", calling a Turkic people Turkic. Either that or they're being in another assimilation policy? Nozdref (talk) 21:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, the genetic evidence shows that the Chuvash are more closely related to Finno-Ugrians than to Turkic peoples. 
Sfarea (talk) 03:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: So what? You could probably say such things about many Turkic peoples. What's relevant is that they share a Turkic language, culture and national identity.--Joostik (talk) 10:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  They are Turkic FULL STOP Böri (talk) 10:23, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

text: In DNA tests, Turkic people links with rather Central Asia and a little West Asia. Chuvash people have mixed with russians(slavic people) heavily. Rather Middle East shows Arab gene. Also, Turkic is not something you can get with heritage test, it is up to what language you use, what culture you exercise and so on.I mean Turkic is language group not ethnic SafaviNihad (talk) 06:43, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism? How Come?! 

message: Sfarea, Chuvashes might indeed be closer to the Finno-Ugrians than to the rest of the Turkic peoples, but that doesn't mean that their origin is predominantly Finno-Ugric:
At the same time, genetic studies have shown closest ties between the Chuvash and other European nations:
So I'd be most grateful if you corrected the genetic section of the article that you added. 09:39, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: How on earth would the closets populations be French, Spanish, Belgians, and southern and western Euro or Mediterranean peoples, given the distance? I would think nearby Russians, some east Euros, and perhaps some Finno-Ugric peoples would be closer, and that seems to correspond much more to their appearance, which has a Uralic aspect.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Word dewd544 (talk • contribs) 01:52, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other studies 

message: By many accounts, Lenin's father was Chuvash. Surely worthy of mention.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.248.11 (talk) 05:46, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lenin omitted? 

message: Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 10:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I removed the whole Genetics section recently with edit summary "This whole section is meaningless to readers. Rather than dumping tables of frequencies, any genetics section should be interpreted so that a general reader can understand what is being presented."  has reverted that change with no edit summary. Thus we need to discuss this per WP:BRD. 
This genetics section has multiple issues as follows:
#The information does not tell the reader anything because it is a dump of gene frequencies without any explanatory prose. Any new genetics section should be prose based. The gene frequencies can be left in the cited source. Readers of an article on the Chuvash people should not need to know what haplogroups and subclades are.
#The section has five sources. The first is not a WP:RS at all and the other four are primary sources. Wikipedia is a tertiary source and for a subject are such as this a secondary source is required. If we are attempting to tell anyone anything about genetics, the primary sources must be curated either through systematic reviews or at least through secondary sources written by subject specialists who have attempted to summarise the state of play.
#The information relates to Y-DNA and mtDNA studies, which were as good as things got some 10 years ago, but the science has moved on. The information would need an update.
So my suggestion: remove the whole section and if we want a genetics section, rewrite it from scratch. Comments are welcome. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:44, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Per WP:SILENCE I shall now remove this information again in line with my proposal above. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:    this talk section is here to discuss the edit I made. You have reverted it again, but have not engaged in talk. To be clear there was consensus to delete it per WP:SILENCE. As per that policy though, I understand you now oppose it so as per WP:BRD, you need to discuss why the material should remain. If you do not discuss then what you are doing is simply edit warring. Please would you now read the above and explain why and in what form you feel this section should remain. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:36, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I have waited two more days for any engagement or discussion here and still nothing. I have thus removed the material again. In cases of content dispute it is essential that editors engage in the talk process to try to work out what is best for the article. Please can we discuss this here rather than turning this into a slow burn edit war? I have raised the above problems with the material. Could you explain why you think the material is useful to the reader. Once again, I am not opposed to a genetics section on principle: I merely believe that any information in the article must be helpful to and understandable by readers, and relevant to the subject of the article. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:52, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:21, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: An editor has recently introduced new material, some of which has been challenged by another editor. An IP editor then reverted the challenged material. WP:BRD applies and so I am opening a talk section to discuss. It is a touch difficult to disentangle what the long standing material is that we should revert to until discussion concludes, but I will see if I can disentangle that. 
Also the IP editor who made the final revert used an edit summary that called this vandalism and made other accusations. Please assume good faith in these discussions. We all want the article to be improved. 
That same editor posted a document here, requesting translation. I have removed it as it appears to be a copyright violation (though I do not know the source) and translations can be done yourself with machine translation (e.g. DeepL). If the article was copy and pasted, and we know where from, we can request a revdel too. 
=== Challenged material ===
New material has been added and there are two points of challenge, both of which I thought were fair. Firstly the new material from User:Won Woghur wikilinks to the article on Bulgars but uses a pipe to replace that with the word "Bulgarians". The challenge by User:Volgabulgari points out that these are not quite the same thing. The challenge is fair and the piped alternative word should not be used - except in one case there is apparently a quotation. If the quoted source says Bulgarians, that one should stand. The link is malformed though and I haven'yt yet found the source so don't know if that is correct. 
The second point of challenge was that the additional genetics information was not relevant as it was talking about modern Bulgarians. We need to be very careful with genetics information in these articles, and what was introduced was opaque to say the least. A reader who wants to know about the Chuvash people does not want to wade through gene distributions and numbers - they want to know what the secondary sources say about the population genetics or the ethno genesis of the people. We need that in plain English, and let the sources keep the detail for the interested academic reader. So yes, I think the genetics material was also rightly challenged. 
As such I am going to revert the edit by User:176.52.77.79 until we arrive at an editor consensus here in talk. However I will follow up the quoted material and if the quotations say "Bulgarians" I shall put those ones back.
Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:00, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulgars, Bulgarians and Genetics - New Material 

message: New material has been added and there are two points of challenge, both of which I thought were fair. Firstly the new material from User:Won Woghur wikilinks to the article on Bulgars but uses a pipe to replace that with the word "Bulgarians". The challenge by User:Volgabulgari points out that these are not quite the same thing. The challenge is fair and the piped alternative word should not be used - except in one case there is apparently a quotation. If the quoted source says Bulgarians, that one should stand. The link is malformed though and I haven'yt yet found the source so don't know if that is correct. 
The second point of challenge was that the additional genetics information was not relevant as it was talking about modern Bulgarians. We need to be very careful with genetics information in these articles, and what was introduced was opaque to say the least. A reader who wants to know about the Chuvash people does not want to wade through gene distributions and numbers - they want to know what the secondary sources say about the population genetics or the ethno genesis of the people. We need that in plain English, and let the sources keep the detail for the interested academic reader. So yes, I think the genetics material was also rightly challenged. 
As such I am going to revert the edit by User:176.52.77.79 until we arrive at an editor consensus here in talk. However I will follow up the quoted material and if the quotations say "Bulgarians" I shall put those ones back.
Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:00, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Challenged material 

message: In this edit:  a lot of technical information from primary sources has been (re)introduced to the article, but this is too technical for a general reader, and the sources are all WP:PRIMARY which is a big problem with this kind of information. The problem is that each primary source has findings and hypotheses, but they are focused on issues and lack a wider perspective. If we simply provide a list of primary sources and invite any kind of conclusions to be made, then we are engaging in WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. I would prefer the genetics section be kept simple (as it was) unless we can find reliable secondary sources that look at the big picture (supportive or otherwise of the language replacement hypothesis and similar). Is there a secondary treatment? Could we back out those changes? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:21, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course. Never thought i should keep genetic section simple. Will do it. Volgabulgari (talk) 04:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics Section 

message: Early scholars from 1800s believed Chuvash is a Turkified Finnic / Finno-Ugric language because of loanwords from Mari in lexicon. Modern scholars generally agreed Chuvash is distinct Oghuric Turkic language with Finnic influence. Do you think we should keep this theory in language section? It may mislead the readers about Chuvash. It was too early and it is too specific for tiny language section. Do you think we should just say it's a language influenced from Uralic or keep the theory anyway. Volgabulgari (talk) 15:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is there any need to add language theories? 

message: The Chuvash consider themselves descended from the Onogurs, Saragurs, Kutrigurs, Bulgars, and they, in turn, came from the territory of Mongolia, Siberia and Manchuria, along with the Hunnu tribes harnessed by oxen (yurts on wheels)
Etymology of Oghur, Utigurs, Kutrigur, Saragurs, Hungars and Bulgars.
Bulgar (Oghur) rotacism *z > r. ökör > öküz > wăkăr.
Oğur ~ Oğuz
Ökör ~ Öküz
Chuvash: văkăr
Hungarians: ökör
Azer: öküz
Turks: öküz
Tatar: buka
Rus: бык
English: bull / ox
Kalmyk language "ukr" («үкр») - cow ~ ökör > wăkăr > oğur > oghur = ox  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.52.78.33 (talk) 10:01, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chuvash researchers have gone far beyond Oxford and Cambridge. 

message: In the VIII—X centuries in Central Asia, the ancient Turkic script (the Orkhon-Yenisei runic script) was used for writing in Turkic languages. Turkic epitaphs of VII-IX AD were left by speakers of various dialects (table):
* Often in the Chuvash language, the Turkic sounds -j- (oguz), -d- (uighur), -z- (kipchak) are replaced by -r- (oghur), example rotacism:
Words in the Turkic languages: leg, put-
j - language (Oguz): ajaq, qoj-
d - language (Uyghur): adaq, qod-
z - language (Kypchak): azaq, qoz-
r - language (Oghur): urah, hor-
* Often in the Chuvash language, the Turkic sound -q- is replaced by -h-, example hitaism :
Words in Turkic languages: black, goose, girl, zucchini
Oguz, kipchaks: qara, qaz, qyz, qabaq
Chuvash: hura, hur, hĕr, hupah
The -h- sound disappears and disappears if it is the last letter . 
Dudaq - Tuta - Lips instead of Tutah
Ayaq - Ura - Leg instead of Urah
Baliq - Pulă - Fish instead of Pulăh
Ineq - Ĕne - Cow instead of Ĕneh
* Turkic sound -j- (oguz) and -ž- (kipchaks) is replaced by chuvash -ş-, example:
Words in Turkic languages: egg, snake, rain, house, earth
Oguz: jumurta, jylan, jagmur, jort, jez (turk., azerb., tat.,)
Kipchaks: žumurtka, žylan, žamgyr, žort, žer (kyrgyz., kazakh.)
Chuvash: şămarta, şĕlen, şămăr, şurt, şĕr
* The Turkic sound -š- is replaced by the Chuvash -L-, example lambdaism:
Words in Turkic languages: winter, silver, sun
Oguz, Kipchaks: qyš, qemeš, qoyaš
Chuvash: hĕl, qĕmĕl, hĕvel
*  In the field of vowels, we observe the following correspondences: the common Turkic -a- in the first syllable of the word in Chuvash correspond to -u-.
Words in Turkic languages: horse, coin, head, step
Oguz, Kipchaks: at, akça, baš, adym
Chuvash: ut, ukşa, puş, utăm
In modern times, in Chuvash [a] remains, Tatar "kapka" ~ Chuvash "hapha" (gate), when there should be a "hupha" from the root "hup - close".
* In the field of vowels, G. F. Miller observes another example when -u- is replaced by -wu- or -wă-
Words in Turkic languages: fire, ten, forest, russian, he, thirty
Oguz, Kipchaks: ut, un, urman, urus, ul, utyz
Chuvash: wut, wun, wărman, wyrăs, wăl, wătăr
* The fricative -g- in some words in Chuvash corresponds to -v-
Words in Turkic languages: native, mountain
Oguz: tugan, dag
Chuvash: tăvan, tuv
altai languagesazerbaijani languagebashkir languagebulgar languagechuvashchuvash languagechuvash republickazakh languagekipchak languagekyrgyz languageoghuroghur languageoguroguz languagetatar languagethe language of the hunsturk languageturkic languagesuzbek language 176.52.77.19 (talk) 17:30, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classification of Turkic languages 

message: Panorama of peoples on the background of Europe. Non-Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe (series III). Fragment from the book "The Gene Pool of Europe" / Tovarishestvo scientific publications KMK - Moscow 2015. The publication was carried out with the financial support of the Russian Fundamental Fund new research under project No. 15-06-07016, not for sale. ISBN 978-5-9907157-0-7
Oleg Pavlovich Balanovsky - Russian geneticist, Doctor of Biological Sciences, head of the laboratory of genomic geography of the Institute of General Genetics of the Russian Academy of Sciences. Professor of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
MAPPING SIMILARITY WITH THE CHUVASH GENE POOL
The next gene pool in our advancement from east to west is the Chuvash, which, in the data on a wide panel of Y-chromosome haplogroups, is so far represented by the only population studied on the territory of Tatarstan. But despite its geographical proximity to the Mishars and Kazan Tatars, and their common belonging to the Turkic languages, and the large number (according to the 2010 census, there are about 1.5 million Chuvash people in Russia), the Chuvash are a genetic island - we do not find other populations at all that are genetically similar to them.
It immediately comes to mind that the Chuvash language is the only surviving from the Bulgar branch of the Turkic languages. It is also unique in that it branches off from the common branch of the Turkic languages before anyone else and, it seems, is the first to penetrate Europe, moving west from the distant ancestral home of the Turks. This path was not only long, but also long - with inevitable contacts and borrowings along the way. Therefore, it is not surprising that a significant layer associated with the culture of the ancient farmers of Western Asia is supposed to be in the culture of the Chuvash. It is hard not to remember this when looking at the genetic landscape of the Chuvash. For the first time, in contrast to all previously considered maps, we see that the southern territories - the Caucasus, Transcaucasia and Western Asia - are not painted in the maximum dark red tones of genetic distances, as in all previous genetic landscapes, but in orange tones of moderately large genetic differences. Indeed, the originality of the Chuvash gene pool is primarily determined by the sharply increased (compared to all neighbors) frequencies of haplogroups E and J, typical of Western Asia.
On the whole, the genetic landscape of the Chuvash does not contradict (unlike the landscape of the Kazan Tatars) the "Bulgarian" version of their ethnogenesis. However, for decisive conclusions it is necessary, of course, a detailed study of all three ethnographic groups of the Chuvash, each of which was influenced by different neighboring ethnic groups. Having added this mosaic, we may be able to discern the most ancient genetic layer in the Chuvash gene pool.
MAPPING SIMILARITY WITH THE GENE POOL OF THE KAZAN TATARS
  According to the 2010 census, 2 million Tatars live in Tatarstan. But since these data include both Mishars, and Kryashens, and Teptyars, the number of Kazan Tatars in Tatarstan is apparently comparable to the number of Bashkirs in Bashkortostan. However, the Kazan Tatars are characterized by a completely different genetic landscape than the Bashkirs - the area of populations genetically similar to the Kazan Tatars is vast and all turned towards North-Eastern Europe.
Although the area of populations most similar to the Kazan Tatars (dark green tones, showing minimal genetic distances 0<d<0.05) is small, the area of populations colored in yellow-green tones of small genetic distances (0.05<d<0.10) is extremely extensive ( Fig. 5.24). This landscape almost completely echoes the landscape of North-Eastern Europe (Fig. 5.10), described in detail in the first series of maps (Section 5.1.). The entire northern and western part of the range of similar populations is practically the same (with the possible exception of the coast of the Barents Sea) - it includes not only the western Finns and Balts, but also the west of Fennoscandia (Fig. 5.10). In the south of this area, the Volga again serves as the border.
But there is also a difference. Unlike the peoples of North-Eastern Europe, the area of similar gene pools covers Tatarstan and part of the populations of Bashkortostan, indicating the presence of a common North European substrate. If it were necessary to give an expressive name to the most characteristic features of this map, then it could be called the landscape of the "left bank of the Volga" - since the Volga almost along its entire course limits the range of gene pools that played the most important role in the formation of the gene pool of the Kazan Tatars. And it should be noted that the Y-chromosomal genetic landscape does not confirm either the Bulgar or the Golden Horde versions of the ethnogenesis of the Kazan Tatars, but instead emphasizes a powerful North European genetic substrate in their gene pool. 176.52.78.33 (talk) 09:53, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics 

message: @Jingiby 
Please read the Khazar origin sources. All pointing a historical document written by Persian historian claiming Volga Bulgar is similiar to Khazar language. Why did you put it there? Because there are many problematic things in it.
Its very doubtful that if Chuvash are an independent Oghur group or descendants of Volga Bulgars or Sabirs. This page really needs changing, so many false sources. Can you guys help me check the sources and help the Wikipedia community?
So far I noticed:
1-) "Chuvash is the sole living representative of Volga Bulgar language"
That's very debated and disputed by scholars so marking it "Volga Bulgar" in the summary as definitive is inappropriate and leans too far in one direction. Readers should see the discussion in the article body on this matter. Please remove or change it.
"Another Turkic people in the Volga area are the Chuvash, who, like the Tatars, regard themselves as descendants of the Volga Bulghars in the historical and cultural sense. It is clear that Chuvash belongs to the Oghur branch of Turkic, as the language of the Volga Bulghars did, but no direct evidence for diachronic development between the two has been established. As there were several distinct Oghur languages in the Middle Ages, Volga Bulghar could represent one of these and Chuvash another." 
2-) "It is considered to share a linguistic connection with the Khazar language in Oghuric languages, which itself constitutes a significantly divergent principal group." "Eṣṭaḵri stated in one place that the Bulḡar language is like the language of the Khazars, thus giving rise to the Chuvash-Bulḡar theory."
How did you miss these? Khazar language is not proven to be Oghuric. This is also pointed in Khazar lang's page. We have only one single word from Khazarian. All these are just assumes presented as facts. Also, what's the purpose of adding these into Chuvash language? To seek some sort of connection between Khazars and Chuvash?
3-) "The other is that Chuvash may have descendant from the Khazars, based on linguistic and ancestral connections."
I read all these references and couldn't find any "Chuvash" word in them. It says a Persian historian claiming a connection between Volga Bulgars and Khazars. Other states a Persian historian who lived few hundred years ago claimed Sabir and Khazar words are connected. For instance both these 36-133  saying the same claim of that old historian while a modern scholar writing it doesn't even mentioning Chuvash people.
4-) "are a Turkic ethnic group, a branch of the Onogurs,"
Onoghurs are specific tribal confederation united with Bulgars. It is not certain whether Chuvash is Onoghur, Volga Bulgar or Sabir related. Chuvash being an independent Oghur group is also possible. It's near same as marking Chuvash as a tribe of Bulgars. It should have been just Oghur. This part is very interesting because it has many copy-pastes in it. Wikipedia does not allow articles with copyright problems. It's not quote.
Please look at this: https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Chuvash_language.html
https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/268991
https://www.ohchr.org/en/human-rights/universal-declaration/translations/chuvash#:~:text=Chuvash%20is%20classified%2C%20alongside%20the,Oghuric%20family%20cannot%20be%20determined.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auzandil (talk • contribs) 16:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. Do it, please. Jingiby (talk) 08:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khazar Origin? Proven Volga Bulgar?? 

message: There’s no mention of their number system, maybe add a link to it or something idk. 115.64.6.1 (talk) 08:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mention of their Numeral system