Talk:Lydia Litvyak

message: A scholarly paper I found says that Gerhard Maak was NOT Litvyak's first kill, but was Lieutenant Valeriya Khomyakova's first, and on 24 September 1943, not 27 September 1942. This source says a pilot named Maier was Litvyak's first kill. I'm taking Maak out and putting Maier in. Binksternet (talk) 05:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Gerhard Maak

message: I'm taking a recent edit from the article and bringing it here. It appeared to me to be a talk page entry. Binksternet (talk) 20:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This again. I find Cottam's writing... questionable. I won't outright say "wrong", but I've got my doubts. I'm sure they'll have heard about it in Krasnyi Luch at the Lidia Litvyak museum; I'll be making a point of asking them when I'm there this summer to see what their opinion is. 2Q (talk) 22:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  * Re this line: "the alleged body in the common grave near Dmitrovka was never exhumed and there is absolutely no proof that Litvyak was buried there." Other reports - many more - say that the wreckage of her aircraft was actually found, and the body was retrieved then, and then buried, after ascertaining that she died from a round to the head. So the statement about exhuming the body is rather irrelevant, and smacks of revisionism. But why revise this history? It would do nothing but perhaps belittle Litvyak... 2Q (talk) 22:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: K.J. Cottam has already helped this article out by emailing me personally and pointing me to some good resources, including Pennington's work Wings, Women, and War which has subsequently been used here as a major reference. She's also written to berate me about how I'm not active in correcting the long-established mistakes and fictions that have become standard fare about Litvyak's life and death. As User:Kjcottam, she sometimes makes additions here which insert her by name as a researcher describing the primary source material; a practice that is not at all good writing style for an encyclopedia article but would be fine in a book. I appreciate Cottam's input to the degree that discussion about Litvyak remains scholarly and encyclopedic. Beyond that, I find I don't have this article high enough on my list of Things To Do to put everything else aside and doggedly research the subject. I know that a nearby university library has some less-widely-distributed works published by Cottam, as well as additional work by Pennington, but fixing this article to erase the mark of sensationalist authors like Bruce Myles will take about three or four days of my time while I go over there, read the books and make copious notes. I have to figure out when this will be, and there's no way I can guarantee anything. Binksternet (talk) 02:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Myles struck me as... well, I think the best way to describe it would be reality-based drama, which is why I used only two comments in the kills section as "oh, by the way" type of side-comments. Though not highest on my priorities either, Lidia interests me enough to go 900km out of my way this summer to go to Krasnyi Luch where her museum and monument are; I'm hoping to learn more there, perhaps they've some documents to see. I've sent K.J. Cottam an email; we'll see. We may be able to implement her conclusions on the matter into the article too, but not exclusively - I think, since she's the only one (that I've found) to make any suggestion Litvyak didn't die in 1943, that this should best be inserted alongside the Official Truth (as it were). 2Q (talk) 03:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Good to know you will be taking the reins. I am already grateful for the work you've done here in sorting the kills etc. Binksternet (talk) 03:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: LoL, User:Kjcottam appears to have had her account deleted for 'blatant advertising'. Perhaps her sensationalist contributions to this article can be re-interpreted in that light. In addition, the story of Nina Raspupova's alledged sighting of Litvyak on Swiss TV in the 'Death Controversy' section also sounds like a case of 'because it's sourced, it must be true'. It is a ludicrous claim. If Litvyak was still alive in the '90s, what had she been doing since the War and why didn't she out herself earlier and claim the fame due to her? As a flight instructor she doesn't seem like sort of personality to shy away from the cameras. This kind of story has no place in an article on a site purporting to be an encyclopedia - it belongs in the tabloid news. 1812ahill (talk) 19:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I caution against reading anything into the blocking of Kjcottam's account. I see no reason why it should have been done, and I think it was a mistaken action. After we came to an agreement about how to work on the article, Kjcottam helped to fix it using only other people's sources, not her own. She was not self-promotional in that work, once she understood Wikipedia's rules about conflict of interest. Binksternet (talk) 00:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hopelessly inaccurate 

message: I read in Pennington's that Litvyak was moved to that regiment with three other pilots, so I correct the text that writes six.
--Gian piero milanetti (talk) 06:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If the 437th only used LaGG-3s, why are Litvak's kills with that unit listed as in a Yak-1? Chegitz (talk) 15:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This source says she used an La-5 in the 437th. http://books.google.com/books?id=5BSnZcx7HhEC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=437+soviet+fighters&source=bl&ots=IXKkuyO9kA&sig=KxzTfhHFBi_19Rrg8STPGIhWosY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XhzkUaWxH9KYrgHSwICgBw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=437%20soviet%20fighters&f=false Chegitz (talk) 16:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This source claims Budanova got her first kills in the 437th in a LaGG-3, in which case, that's probably what Litvak was using. http://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=645 Chegitz (talk) 16:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Litvyak moved to 437th 

message: But... is the sources that states that our Lydia scored two kills on 31 July, the day before her death, reliable? I mean... in no text I can find a reference about these air victories. There is not evidence of that in Pennington, Cottam , Noggle etc. 
--Gian piero milanetti (talk) 21:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  31 July kills?!? 

message: There is in bibliography two times the same Bergstrom book. Is there any reason for that? 
--Gian piero milanetti (talk) 23:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  BERGSTROM 

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thread_title: File:Order of Lenin.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: I know that the information is referenced, because I have the book that says that, but Orel is some hundreds kilometers north of the place where Litvyak aircraft fell down, in a place called Kozhevnya, where there is a memorial. Moreover, there is absolutely no evidence that Merkle was shot down by Litvyak. He was rammed and killed by a Yak-1 on Dmytrievka, but nobody saw Litvyak ramming him. Litvyak was seen for the last time while she was entering in a cloud, pursued by several German Bf 109s. I stop here for the moment. 
--Gian piero milanetti (talk) 04:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last mission 

message: I read in <Die Geschichte der I. Gruppe des Jagdgeschwaders 52
Offizielle Ausgabe der traditionsgemeinsch JG 52> by Bernd Barbas, pagg. 108-293 that II Gruppe JG 52 in September 1942 was in Maikop-Krymskaya, about 1,000 km far from Stallingrad, so how could Litvyak shot down a pilot from 4 Staffel JG 52 on 27 September 1942?
--Gian piero milanetti (talk) 07:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  JG 52 in Stalingrad? 

message: I think that the table with the kills of Litvyak should be deeply corrected if not deleted at all. I have just published today the most updated book about Soviet airwomen, with the newest and unpublished data and information about Litvyak available on the market. There is absolutely - for instance - no evidence that Litvyak on 16 july shot down a German ace. That day the Luftwaffe Experten listed in the teble belly landed for an engine failure subsequently an air fight. Now, this is NOT a kill. Moreover, there is only one source - Pennington, pag. 140 - that states that Litvyak that day scored a kill, while Cottam (Women in War and Resistence) writes that Litvyak that day had just to belly land. But there is absolutely no proof that anyway the German ace was hit by Litvyak, as there is not known any claims record on Litvyak side where is noted exactly the Planquadrat Koordinaten or the exact point of any of her air victory. Still, on 1st of August 1943, the Jagdeschwaders engaged along the Mius front had not aircraft damaged and Litvyak was not the one who "taran"ned Merkle, as no one of the witness saw and says that. So I propose to delete those unaccurate credited victories. 
--Gian piero milanetti (talk) 22:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  JULY 1943  KILLS very unaccurate 

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thread_title: File:OrderOfLeninType1.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: As the author of the most updated book about the Soviet airwomen I am forced to repeat that the article is full of unaccuracies, the table with the kills is ridiculous, as there are not reliable sources and the sources quoted are NOT verifiable. Gian piero milanetti (talk) 05:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Important unaccuracies 

message: Aside from the embarrassment of being shot down by a 21 year old woman, if it is true, there seems to be no accounts of Litvyak in German literature. At least I havn't found one. Could the 'female ace thing' just be propaganda? It certainly fits in with the Communist ideal. Dapi89 (talk) 12:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Hans Grünberg]] and the rest 

message: Any one fluently speaking and writing both languages? It seems that the letter "я" is read "Ya", but not if it comes after a Consonant as it is here.עמירם פאל (talk) 10:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I’m native Russian speaker. There are many standards of transliteration of the Russian names from cyrillic to latin letters, but it seems there is no standard that uses latin “А” for cyrillic “Я”. For reference check Common systems for romanizing Russian. It is common to use “YA” for “Я”. And regarding the sound, in this case “Я” sounds like in “yummy”. User13863 (talk) 15:07, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why would anyone translate the surname "Литвяк" as "Litvyak" rather then "Litvak"? 

message: I have not checked this page lately... there are absolutely wrong informations: I have been in Dmitryevka where Litvyak is officially buried in Brotherhood Tomb no 19, and where she was shot down, while clashing with German Messerchmitts of JG 52 or JG 3. The place is in south-east Ukraine, several hundreds miles south-east of Orel, I can't believe it!
--Gian piero milanetti (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:   Litvyak downed in Orel?? 

message: K. J. Cottam was employed by Canadian Military Intelligence and was awarded a very high security clearance. The Canadian military found her completely trustworthy. Yet she is perpetually insulted by opinionated individuals who say nonsense about the fate of Lidya Litvyak. I am convinced that in the end the truth, i.e. Cottam's solid and dependable writing, will prevail. (Anonymous.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.157.207.157 (talk) 18:58, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliability of historian K. J. Cottam with PhD frin history om the prestigious University of Toronto. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: This statement is solely based on Israeli sources from recent years - a propaganda article by Israeli Air Force, a transcript of a speech by Israeli defense minister who barely mentions Litvyak and two articles, one of them also barely mentions her. None of them provides any sources in support of her supposed Jewish origins, they only state that for some reason she is commemorated as a Jewish pilot in Israel and that few people are aware of that. At the same time, the scan of the official Award list from 1943 where Litvyak's ethnicity is clearly written down as "Russian" is simply removed by עמירם פאל. This is not gonna be s stable version unless he comes up with some strong evidence. AveTory (talk) 15:55, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, he who thinks that Israeli defence minister, Israeli air force, and so forth, are not reliable sources can claim such claims, I think otherwise.עמירם פאל (talk) 09:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Not a since document from the Soviet Union indicates she was Jewish. The Israeli military can claim whatever they want, but that does not magically change what her soviet air force identification paperwork said.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 15:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No contradiction, she was a Jewish - Russian. עמירם פאל (talk) 19:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Being labeled as Jewish by members of the Israeli government who never met her doesn't prove that she was Jewish. Litvyak absolutely did not practice Judaism and her ethnicity in enlistment documents is listed as "Russian", not "Jewish" (since Jewish was one of the options for filling out the form). And all claims that she is Jewish are from sources with little connection to of knowledge of Litvyak. Rumors and claims spread by politicans do not count as reliable sources. A politician can claim Litvyak won the super bowl or went to space - but that wouldn't make it true! What is know for sure is that people who knew Litvyak in person haven't described her as Jewish AND that none of her documents say she was Jewish. Now excuse me if I find that paperwork filled out by Litvyak is a more reliable source for establishing her identity than what some politican trying to score points said.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 20:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

text: Indeed, "Jewish" was a separate ethnicity in the USSR. If a person came from a Jewish family, than the 5th line in official documents read "Jewish" no matter where that person was born. You may compare it to the Award list scan of the famous Soviet actor Vladimir Etush, for example: also born in Moscow, he is written down as "Jewish". As well as plenty of other Jewish soldiers who took part in the war. AveTory (talk) 21:46, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: PlanespotterA320, AveTory, how about a compromise - a sentence like that: In the official Soviet documents she is presented as Russian, but in Israeli sources she is presented as Jewish. עמירם פאל (talk) 14:03, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't see the importance of this information. There is nothing in her bio that shows her connection to Jewish culture, Israel (which was established only after her death) or how her supposed Jewishness influenced her life. AveTory (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: it doesn't have to influence her. its just an info which is commonly mentioned in bio articles. Gilgamesh (talk) 07:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I mentioned her Russian ancestry with a link to official documents. Speculative information about her Jewish roots is not documented and nothing in her bio points at it, even the names of her parents are 100% Slavic, not Jewish, thus I don't understand the purpose of adding more ancestries. AveTory (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: We do have sources which mention her jewish ancestry. Thus, we should allow the readers a full access to the sources and they will decide by themselves which sources to they prefer. Gilgamesh (talk) 14:05, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: We should not knowingly publish such highly questionable information on Wikipedia.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 14:58, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

text: Not really. Kazimir Malevich, for example, is called "Belarusian" or "Ukrainian" by modern Belarusian and Ukrainian press, and this led to local edit wars, yet the article still clearly states he was Polish because his ancestry is well-documented. This goes on, and on, and on for many prominent people, yet they don't have multiple ancestries on their pages just because "there are sources and readers should decide for themselves". AveTory (talk) 18:49, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  "born in Moscow into a Jewish-Russian family" 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion 

message: The kill total listed here for Aleksey Solomatin does not match any of the figures given in Solomatin's own entry.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:4700:7D64:F935:EA9E:700:E4C1 (talk) 00:09, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solomatin kill total