Talk:Bande dessinée

message: There is a little editors' war on whether Franco-Belgian comics should be referred as les Bandes Dessinées or La Bande Dessinée. I propose that we agree on the right term in this page. 
As the initiator of current form of this page and french speaking belgian comic books reader and drawer, I think the plural form should not been mentioned here. Why ? Because:
# The art in itself is called La Bande Dessinée. The same applies for the franco-belgian comics industry.
# A single comic book is called Une(La) Bande Dessinée.
I think that willing to speak of Les Bandes Dessinées is probably confusion with the English term Comics which is a plural form. In french, it is singular form.
PS: See similar discussion for Comics.
Lvr 10:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  As a French, a Frenchman would NOT say "J'aime les bandes dessinées" if he likes comics as reading them, collecting them... He would use that sentence if he wants to point out some bandes dessinées among others, like in "J'aime les bandes dessinées américaines". The singular form is always prefered to talk about the bande dessinée in the globality. Helldjinn 11:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I cannot deny Helldjinn's logic or his authority, but I think his example just proves my point. He says "J'aime les bande dessinées américaines" means "I like American comics" (like "I enjoy reading Superman, Garfield, etc."), whereas "J'aime la bande dessinée américaine" would mean "I like the American comics scene" (like "I enjoy comics in little stapled together pamphlets, where the characters are mostly superheroes"). I agree, then, that this article is about La Bande Dessinée (Franco-Belgique) but the sentence says that that's the French word for comics, which I say is Les Bandes Dessinées. In my academic writings on the subject (in French) I used la BD to mean Franco-Belgian comics, la bande dessinée to indicate the format they both use to produce les bandes dessinées and les comics as the American version.--Signor Giuseppe 04:23, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't want to bother you Signor and I don't know who you are, but do you mind, if we, french speaking guys, pretend to know how we speak in our daily language about comics ? Have you ever listened to french speaking guys talking about comics in some France/Belgian/Switzerland comics bookstore ? You would here "J'aime la bande dessinée" 90% of the time , and  "J'aime les bandes dessinées" a poor 10%. This is just that simple. May be are you willing to teach us how to speak french ? Sorry if i sound agressive Lvr 12:03, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am no longer impressed by the tone of this discussion, and do not believe that I used such snide language with Lvr as he did with me. Considering his authority as an actual Frenchman, I obviously have no leg to stand on, and if it is that important to him that the opening paragraph not mention les bandes dessinées than he has my blessing to delete it, and my guarantee that I will not put it back in.--Signor Giuseppe 22:04, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, more gently, I would say that les bandes dessinées can not be said in French. It's just like for cinema. A Frenchman would not say J'aime les films (I like movies) but j'aime le cinéma. But he could say J'aime le cinéma américain and J'aime les films américain (which, in that case, means the same). Why and how, I can't tell, but that's the way it is. There's something missing when we just say j'aime les bandes dessinées. And to correct one of your sentence : you used la BD to mean Franco-Belgian comics, la bande dessinée to indicate the format they both use to produce des bandes dessinées franco-belges and des comics as the American version. I would use des (some) in these case. And finally, une bande dessinée refers to all kind of comics (American comics, mangas, manhwas, franco-belgian comics). As in English, to refer to Franco-Belgian comics, we use bande dessinée frano-belge. Helldjinn 10:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That I was insulted by the tone the discussion had taken did not mean that I was not convinced. The big problem here is that Americans can't even agree on a defintion for comics (Sequential Art or Words+Pictures) so it's certainly not going to translate to French. So in some contexts les bandes dessinées means comics, and in some la bande dessinée does. For the purposes of the opening paragraph (and, as we've discussed, for completeing the sentence "J'aime..."), I am now entirely persuaded that the latter is correct. Je vois que personne n'a changé le premier paragraphe en attendant ma réponse, ce qui est très poli. Je le récrirai moi-même, alors que cela ne doive plus changer. Debate closed.--Signor Giuseppe 01:18, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As a native French speaker (born in Belgium), I can assure you that in Belgium at least people use "la bande dessinée" to mean the art form, and "les bandes dessinées" to mean the actual objects. Generally speaking, you would much more often hear people saying "j'aime les bandes dessinées" than "j'aime la bande dessinée".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.13.166 (talk) 22:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  First off, I'm sorry. I just edited the article without checking out the talk page first. Not sure what the proper decorum is when editing a page. Anyways... I now live in Australia, but grew up in the north east of France, right next to Belgium, and spent the first 20 years of my life (well after I could walk) in comic book stores. I entirely agree with the comment before mine. When talking about the actual object in French, you most definitely use the plural form. The singular is only used to describe the art form as a whole (and thinking about it, I might roll my changes back :-D ). I'm gonna buy comics/ comic books translates to "je vais acheter des BDs" (plural). --Crackettt (talk) 09:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bandes Dessinées vs Bande Dessinée 

message: # Lvr, for the reasons I explained above.
# Helldjinn 11:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pros '''La Bande Dessinée''' 

message: # Signor_Giuseppe, because a single "drawn strip" does not sequential art make. A Frenchman would say "J'aime les bandes dessinées" if he liked comics, as in reading them, collecting them, etc., and "J'aime la Bande Dessinée" if he liked the art-form, i.e. thought sequential art was an elegant, meaningful way to express oneself. There is a large overlap, which is why I believe both should be included here. I agree that, just like in English, the etymologically insignificant singular has come into use to refer to one comic, as Lvr pointed out, but this does not mean that La Bande Dessinée means Comics.--Signor Giuseppe 18:03, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  As a French, a Frenchman would NOT say "J'aime les bandes dessinées" if he likes comics as reading them, collecting them... He would use that sentence if he wants to point out some bandes dessinées among others, like in "J'aime les bandes dessinées américaines". The singular form is always prefered to talk about the bande dessinée in the globality. Helldjinn 11:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I cannot deny Helldjinn's logic or his authority, but I think his example just proves my point. He says "J'aime les bande dessinées américaines" means "I like American comics" (like "I enjoy reading Superman, Garfield, etc."), whereas "J'aime la bande dessinée américaine" would mean "I like the American comics scene" (like "I enjoy comics in little stapled together pamphlets, where the characters are mostly superheroes"). I agree, then, that this article is about La Bande Dessinée (Franco-Belgique) but the sentence says that that's the French word for comics, which I say is Les Bandes Dessinées. In my academic writings on the subject (in French) I used la BD to mean Franco-Belgian comics, la bande dessinée to indicate the format they both use to produce les bandes dessinées and les comics as the American version.--Signor Giuseppe 04:23, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't want to bother you Signor and I don't know who you are, but do you mind, if we, french speaking guys, pretend to know how we speak in our daily language about comics ? Have you ever listened to french speaking guys talking about comics in some France/Belgian/Switzerland comics bookstore ? You would here "J'aime la bande dessinée" 90% of the time , and  "J'aime les bandes dessinées" a poor 10%. This is just that simple. May be are you willing to teach us how to speak french ? Sorry if i sound agressive Lvr 12:03, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am no longer impressed by the tone of this discussion, and do not believe that I used such snide language with Lvr as he did with me. Considering his authority as an actual Frenchman, I obviously have no leg to stand on, and if it is that important to him that the opening paragraph not mention les bandes dessinées than he has my blessing to delete it, and my guarantee that I will not put it back in.--Signor Giuseppe 22:04, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, more gently, I would say that les bandes dessinées can not be said in French. It's just like for cinema. A Frenchman would not say J'aime les films (I like movies) but j'aime le cinéma. But he could say J'aime le cinéma américain and J'aime les films américain (which, in that case, means the same). Why and how, I can't tell, but that's the way it is. There's something missing when we just say j'aime les bandes dessinées. And to correct one of your sentence : you used la BD to mean Franco-Belgian comics, la bande dessinée to indicate the format they both use to produce des bandes dessinées franco-belges and des comics as the American version. I would use des (some) in these case. And finally, une bande dessinée refers to all kind of comics (American comics, mangas, manhwas, franco-belgian comics). As in English, to refer to Franco-Belgian comics, we use bande dessinée frano-belge. Helldjinn 10:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That I was insulted by the tone the discussion had taken did not mean that I was not convinced. The big problem here is that Americans can't even agree on a defintion for comics (Sequential Art or Words+Pictures) so it's certainly not going to translate to French. So in some contexts les bandes dessinées means comics, and in some la bande dessinée does. For the purposes of the opening paragraph (and, as we've discussed, for completeing the sentence "J'aime..."), I am now entirely persuaded that the latter is correct. Je vois que personne n'a changé le premier paragraphe en attendant ma réponse, ce qui est très poli. Je le récrirai moi-même, alors que cela ne doive plus changer. Debate closed.--Signor Giuseppe 01:18, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As a native French speaker (born in Belgium), I can assure you that in Belgium at least people use "la bande dessinée" to mean the art form, and "les bandes dessinées" to mean the actual objects. Generally speaking, you would much more often hear people saying "j'aime les bandes dessinées" than "j'aime la bande dessinée".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.13.166 (talk) 22:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  First off, I'm sorry. I just edited the article without checking out the talk page first. Not sure what the proper decorum is when editing a page. Anyways... I now live in Australia, but grew up in the north east of France, right next to Belgium, and spent the first 20 years of my life (well after I could walk) in comic book stores. I entirely agree with the comment before mine. When talking about the actual object in French, you most definitely use the plural form. The singular is only used to describe the art form as a whole (and thinking about it, I might roll my changes back :-D ). I'm gonna buy comics/ comic books translates to "je vais acheter des BDs" (plural). --Crackettt (talk) 09:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contra '''La Bande Dessinée''' 

message: I removed then Les Humanoïdes Associés link from the 90s renewal, because the paragraph speeks about new publishing houses. I know this publishing house is an important one and may worth being mentionned, but is not a "new one from 90s". Casterman, Dargaud, Glénat are not mentionned either. I wazs planning wrting a Franco-Belgian publishing houses article where it would be mentionned. Lvr 11:16, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Also, good idea for an article. I'll be glad to help once it's started. Mikkel 09:05, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is started !!! I wrote an introduction and rewrote the article on Casterman. Lvr 15:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. I've wroten a stub on Les Editions Dargaud. I have to run now though, but I thought I'd get in the basics. Mikkel 16:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Les Humanoïdes Associés]] 

message: This page could do with some illustrations. I've added a picture of Tintin in the introduction as an example of a famous comic, but there should also be illustrations of the various styles and newer comics. Mikkel 10:48, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will scan a few samples. Altought I don't have much of the 70s stuff. Lvr 15:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I will try to see if I can find some wordless comics from the seventies. I'd prefer to show pages in the original language, and most of my comics are either Danish or English translations. Mikkel 16:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, some of that arty Metal Hurlant stuff was silent, as far as I could recall... 81.232.72.148 23:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's true. I'd forgotten about this, I'll see what I can dig out from my collection Mikkel 09:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illustrations 

message: (below comment moved from /temp talk page) Mikkel 15:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose that we first try to add some content related to Flemish comics here. We could then see what we have achieved and decide, via a consensus here, or even a poll on the WikiProject Comics whether we go for a merge or split by country, by language. Lvr 15:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Franco-Belgian vs. Belgian, French, Franco-Belgian

message: Needs better referencing, maybe try and source free images of key creators. Hiding Talk 08:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment

message: There is now a proposed project or project subgroup relating explicitly to Franco-Belgian comics at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Franco-Belgian comics. Any editors interesting in working with this group should indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter 17:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Franco-Belgian comics group 

message: A wonderful article Belgian comics has been lately written.  It is a great article which imho is worth being featured in a near future. In particular, this article is well referenced though it misses a bit of English references. Imho, the content of this article is far superior to the Franco-Belgian comics article.
The question is however whether both strongly overlapping articles should not be merged? Vb 08:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You make me blush :-) While there is indeed much overlap, I feel that there are enough differences as well to keep them separate. If we would include the history of French comics completely as well, the article would be way too long and would need to be separated anyway. Perhaps a short article about the true Franco-Belgian comics (characteristics, magazines, ..) can be made, and two long articles about Belgian comics and French comics? Fram 09:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Earlier, I suggested that we create a number of articles (European comic book formats, for example), and use those for the "common" stuff, but received no feedback. What do you think? Mikkel 19:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: The term "Franco-Belgian comics" have long been used for a particular comics style and tradition in Europe, where a market have emerged that has little to do with national borders, but more of a common language. Even francophone comics from other countries such as Switzerland (Derib, Ceppi etc.) and Luxembourg are usually considered Franco-Belgian. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 23:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is also my opinion.  However, Fram seems to know much more than I do.  Maybe Fram should list all the topics which should belong to a future French comics article.  We could therefore better understand why a Franco-Belgian comics article should in his opinion be reduced to a short summary. Vb 12:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's mainly like Wakuran says. Franco-Belgian comics should describe the genre (the Spirou-Tintin kind, let's call it), without focusing only on Belgian or French comics (i.e. including relevant Swiss, Polish, German, ... comics), and without including unrelated French and/or Belgian comics. Next to it, we have separate articles for a historical (not stylistic) overview of the production of one country (or region or whatever is the most pactical), so we have Belgian comics, French comics, Dutch comics, Italian comics, Swiss comics... This system would in my opinion give all info necessary to understand the complicated history of these comics, and would not put completely unrelated artists (not by style and not by country) like Marc Sleen and Louis Joos in one article. The Franco-Belgian comics article could expand on the stylistical influence of the Ligne Claire and of the Atom style / Marcinelle on European comics as a whole (with Joost Swarte and so on). The division of the two (country vs. style-publishing method) is not perfect, but I think it is doable, and certainly better IMO than merging French Comics and Belgian Comics into one much too large article (I suppose no one really supports having Frenchcomics and Franco-Belgian comicsas separate articles, but nto Belgian comic as well?). Fram 12:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't suppose so either. Totally agreeing with the above ("Belgian comics" as a regional focus article, and in-depth destination from "Franco-Belgian comics", a non-national article on a genre, culture and industry) there are surely sources to make up a separate "French comics" article which isn't a redirect to F-Bc (offhand not knowing which or what). Is there awareness of scholarly publication on isolated French comics? Subjects such as reaction to perceived Belgian dominance, the rise and fall of publications such as Pilote, L'Écho des savanes, Métal Hurlant, success of series like Astérix and Valérian, creators distinctly diverging from the Belgian schools such as Moebius, Druillet, "adult tendencies" etc. should be ample material for a French equivalent to "Belgian comics"? MURGH disc. 11:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say the criterion for "Franco-Belgian comics" should be the language. If the comics are originally written in French and/or mainly/originally for the Francophone market, they could probably be considered part of the scene. At least that holds true for Europe, I think European Francophone comics are rather popular in French Quebec and Francophone Africa, but the import in the other direction, towards Europe, has been rather scarce. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * (talk) 12:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging with [[Belgian comics]] 

message: Just in case this is a controversial pull -- it's a well-written piece, no question, but it's really about American comics with some Eurocomics context in it. It's got a nice scan of an early Tintin book and has a paragraph on Franco-Belgian comics in the middle, but then it jumps right back to DC books of the late '80s, and the thesis (I think -- it's kind of muddled) seems to be that American comics are catching up in terms of being regarded seriously. 
I'm not that anxious about it, but it seemed like a pretty tenuous connection.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MattShepherd (talk • contribs) 11:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  ArtsEditor link 

message: Can we get a sound file of how to pronounce Bande dessinée? ʄ!•¿talk? 03:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Can we point to a page, that would be like the List of best-selling manga, and give some measure of the most commercially successful bds? I would guess that Tintin, Astérix and Spirou are close to the top three but I have no clue beyond that. I found the manga list very informative. PhS (talk) 07:57, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Asterix should have been the best seller, by far, as far as I know. Otherwise, I guess it'd mostly be long-running classics, such as Lucky Luke, Tif et Tondu, Boule et Bill and maybe Suske en Wiske (as one of few crossover Flemish series). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 08:11, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impact and Popularity 

message: According to the DRC article, 33 million Congolese are literate (read/write) in French. While the Languages of Canada article reports that less than 10 million Canadians have knowledge of the French language.
Could we get a second opinion/more information on this? ThutmosisV (talk) 12:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literate French speakers 

message: There were quite a number of non-free images which were being used in this article thatI  have removed because their particular uses did not comply with Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. Non-free use is not automatic and each use is required to saitsfy all ten non-free content criterion listed on the above mentioned policy's page. All of the images which were removed were lacking the seperate, specific non-free use rationale required by :WP:NFCC#10c, so they could have been removed for simply that reason alone per :WP:NFCCE. However, many of the uses also failed :WP:NFCC#1 and :WP:NFCC#8 as currently used. Non-free images of deceased individuals (item 10 of :WP:NFCI) are generally allowed when they are used as the primary means of identification in stand-alone articles about the individuals in question, but almost never allowed in articles such as this, unless the image itself is the subject of specific sourced critical commentary. The same goes for non-free cover art; such non-free use generally considered acceptable when used in a stand-alone article about the work in question, but requires a much stronger justification in other articles per :WP:NFC#cite_note-3. It might be possible for some of the images which were removed to be re-added to the article, but before doing so the non-free use problems need to be addressed and consideration should be given to alternaitve ways (such as linking per item 6 of :WP:NFC#UUI) to try an keep non-free use as minimal as possible. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:07, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-free image use 

message: For the section "1944–1959: Post-war era Belgian supremacy", I think 1946 would be a better cut-off point, since the launch of Tintin was a game-changer, and incited the rival Spirou to up their ante. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:20, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Although it possibly refers more to the liberation of Belgium in 1944. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:22, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: 1944–1959: Post-war era Belgian supremacy

message: The official languages in Belgium are Dutch, French and German.
Although I'm not aware of any comics from the German part of Belgium. Someone Not Awful (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That's very true. So, adjust the text, please. Belgium indeed holds a German-speaking population. Dekim7887 (talk) 15:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

text: "Belgium is a bilingual country" is talking about commercial reality, not official languages.  If you peruse Languages of Belgium, it's ~59% Flemish/Dutch, ~40% French, and 1% German.  Furthermore, the tiny German-speaking part is irrelevant for the Bande dessinée marketplace.  I don't see the problem with the current phrasing.  THere's lots of government-official languages out there that aren't relevant in such contexts (e.g. South African Sign Language, an official language of South Africa, but not one widely practiced).  SnowFire (talk) 16:21, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, in a sense you are right, but, still...; the phrase or phrasing "Belgium is a bilingual country" is simply incorrect. Just for the sake of veracity/accuracy and also because of inclusivity, one might rephrase it as follows; "Belgium is mostly a bilingual country, with Dutch and French being thus the two main tongues, plus a minute portion of German which is also officially recognized in the small country (of Belgium)" -)) Dekim7887 (talk) 10:28, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Belgium is a trilingual country 

message: The headings make it out to be a kind of cultural war or something, which seems unnecessary
For context, I am writing about these headings, with my emphasis:
* Early 1900s – 1929: Precursors
* 1929–1940: Birth of the modern Franco-Belgian comic
* 1940–1944: War and occupation
* 1944–1959: Post-war era Belgian supremacy — suggestion: just "post-war era"
* * The bande dessinée under siege in post-war France
* 1959–1974: Scale tips to France — suggestion: something like "early modern"/"underground"?
* 1974–1990: France becomes preeminent — suggestion: "recent developments"? idk
* * The bande dessinée becomes cultural heritage
Being a Dane I am familiar with national rivalry, but perhaps this is a bit much lol
77.241.128.248 (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headings are quite intense 

message: This was the supposed literal translation of bande déssinée into English. Vandalism, or at least idiocy, I think. Going to change to drawn strip.
Nuttyskin (talk) 11:15, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It was just uncaught vandalism from an IP address - no need to discuss, just revert it. SnowFire (talk) 14:43, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  literally 'chicken strip'