Talk:Father Christmas

message: Is Santa real?
What is Father Christmas's name in other languages?
Chloe age 6
* Chloe, look at the page for Santa Claus and Christmas worldwide.  Those pages should help you out.  Cheers, Rowlan 15:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: A note

message: Please change the picture - use the Father Christmas from The LIon, the Witch, and the Wardrobe instead, I beseech! Das Baz 15:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Father XMas image change

message: The image on the page at the moment is the traditional American one of Santa, not that of Father Christmas.  Can we find a more appropriate one?--MichaelMaggs 17:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image is of Santa Claus 

message: Multiple links to that Dawn Coperman web article are hardly adequate citation for a claim of pagan origins.  Coperman gives no references at all for her claims of a Saxon 'King Winter' or 'King Frost' figure.  And a link to a Google Book search with the word 'pagan' highlighted is likewise hardly adequate. Cavalorn 19:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Pagan Origins' poorly documented

message: The term 'Father Christmas' is used in translation in many countries
I don't understand what this sentence is supposed to mean ? And maybe these names should be ordered to depict their meaning, like this, for exemple: 
Father Christmas: Brazil ("Papai Noel"), Bulgaria ("Dyado Koleda"), France and French Canada ("le Père Noël"),
Saint Nicholas: Hungary ("Mikulás"), Malta ("San Niklaw"),Poland ("Święty Mikołaj"), 
Old man of Christmas: Latvia ("Ziemassvētku vecītis"), Lithuania ("Kalėdų Senelis"), 
Child Jesus: Mexico ("El Niñito Dios" ("Child God", meaning Jesus)).
Father Frost: Russia ("Ded Moroz"), Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina ("Deda Mraz"); Removed the Father Frost from the Czech Republic info, as it is clearly a Russian tradition. Many Czechs are aware of the existence of the Father Frost, but this is mainly because they are fond of this Russian fairy-tale film "Mrazik" which is on the TV every Christmas. Arguably, there will be merely an insignificant minority of children in the Czech Republic, who actually receive their gifts from this character.
Multiple names used: Spain and some of Spanish-speaking Latin America ("Papá Noel" or "San Nicolás" or "Santa Claus" ), Germany ("Weihnachtsmann" or "Nikolaus"), 'Father Christmas' (and in some cases baby Jesus) is used in preference to 'Santa' in Afghanistan ("Baba Chaghaloo")
Futhermore, althought this information is very interesting, I doubt it should be here - it lists every gift bringing character like Child Jesus, but article is on Father Christmas, maybe it should be in seperate article ? -- Xil/talk 14:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names in various countries 

message: The only source for this is an about.com article which gives no sources or indeed any attempts to back up its assertions.  It looks suspiciously like a retrospective creation, along the lines of Margaret Murray or Gerald Gardner.  Is there a better source for this? Mon Vier 12:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Holly King

message: Thank you so very much for getting rid of that stupid illustration and putting in a much better one! A trillion blessings on whoever did it! Erudil 20:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Illustration

message: I've removed the reference to Gladman's Insurrection, because Gladman was crowned as the Lord of Misrule, not as any equivalent of 'Father Christmas':
"The subsequent defence alleged that the procession was but a Shrovetide sporting, and that Gladman was merely 'crowned as Kyng of Crestemesse'; the riot, however, took place at the end of January, six weeks before any Shrovetide mummery was due; possibly Gladman, who seems to have played the part of 'King of Misrule' annually at the Shrovetide carnival, put on his 'property robes' in a spirit of semijesting riotousness, and was then carried by the temper of the mob further than he had intended." (From britishhistory.ac.uk)
The Lord_of_Misrule is a completely different figure from Father Christmas, and has his own Wikipedia entry. Cavalorn (talk) 14:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gladman's Insurrection

message: Father Christmas vs. Weihnachtsmann (Santa) vs. Nikolaus vs. Babbo Natale ...
at the part "Names in various countries" there ist listet in Germany "Weihnachtsmann" or "Nikolaus". thats def. wrong! the nikolaus (english: Saint Nicholas) is not the weihnachtsmann (english: Santa Claus) - (i will change this later on. perhaps there are also mistakes in other languages ...???). also the polish, russian and other entries of this list are doubtful. (and the inter-wiki-links too). a merging of "Santa Claus" and "Father Christmas" perhaps would be the better way ... hmm. ? thanx, 80.89.110.48 (talk) 16:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes there is ongoing confusion as to the distinction between Santa Claus and Father Christmas which could maybe be better explored in a combined article. Citizensmith (talk) 13:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, definitely wrong in teh article. Nikolaus comes on December 6th (or rather in the night between December 5th and 6th), while the Weihnachtsmann comes on the evening of December 24th. Nikolaus puts sweets and sometimes also small presents into the shoes of the children, provided the kids cleaned them and put 'em in front of their door. The kids would then find their Nikolaus gifts in the morning. --Klaws (talk) 11:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Father Christmas vs. ... 

message: This seems somewhat irrelevant to me. It would be interesting if the works were comparable, but The Father Christmas Letters were never meant for publication. The fact that a character used by Lewis in fiction designed for public consumption appears in writings which Tolkien produced purely for his family's benefit is surely neither here nor there.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.221.148 (talk) 00:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that's a valid point, though. The Letters were only published after Tolkein became world famous.  The only noteworthy thing about them is they demolish the Coca Cola myth as he drew Father Christmas in a red suit.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Lewis and Tolkien

message: DBachmann was making a few edits and drew my attention to the fact that there is another article for Santa Claus. The two are interchangeable terms for the same person, and a lot of the information from one article is duplicated in the other. I think that both articles would be better served by merging the two and contrasting the differences of interpretation. Any merger of course would have the appropriate redirects. Because we are moving into that season, this should probably be acted upon after a moderate amount of discussion. I've initiated this same discussion over at the Santa Claus article. Thoughts? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 14:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's keep the discussion at one place to avoid two simultaneous discussions on the same subject. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 01:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: "The same figure with the same name exists in other countries (in that country's language), such as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Romania (Romance countries)."
The above paragraph is someone's point of view...yes they do have names with similar meanings however to claim they are the same character is heavily biased as Father Christmas is as much like the Italian version as he is like the American Santa Claus. The above should be changed to something more easily sourced and less biased. Merry Yule! Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 16:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Same character?

message: "Father Christmas often appears as a large elderly aged male often around 60 to 70 years old. He is dressed in either a red or green snowsuit trimmed with white fur, a matching hat and dark boots. Often he carries a large brown sack filled with toys on his back"
I'd agree with the elderly man, and the sack of toys, but my childhood (only 30-odd years ago) memory of Father Christmas is that he typically wore a long red gown, and a hooded riding-cloak trimmed with white fur. The jaunty bobble-cap, and the two-piece jacket-and-trousers suit (which is what I assume is meant by "snow suit") is, to me, typical of the modern hybridisation with the (essentially, in British culture) American Santa Claus. Green I don't remember at all - possibly a reference to Dickens' "Spirit of Christmas Present" in "A Christmas Carol", who wears a green cloak? But I can't find sources, not even a snap of me sitting on the knee of a department store "Father Christmas" in the mid-seventies, which I'm sure would prove my point about the appearance of Father Christmas back then being (apart from colour scheme) different to that of the modern Santa. Ghughesarch (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it a Red James Bond suit? and a hat with a bobble on it? And no, no green, in Recess (TV series) he's black though and shaves .  ←Kalajan→  22:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appearance 

message: Listen if a little kid reads this he'll burst out crying (followed by a possible suicide =]) No I really mean it.  ←Kalajan→  22:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes.  Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). iMatthew // talk // </span> 23:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Additionally, I agree - this article's condition makes me want to swallow a bottle of pills myself. Joking aside, Wikipedia is not censored. Not my rule; its all Wikipedia. We don't sugar-coat it for the minors, any more than we shy away from showing a pee-pee or hoo-hoo, We just do it in a responsible way. Hiding the truth about Santa/Father Christmas/etc. is both unencyclopedic and irresponsible. If your guardians aren't willing to tell you the truth, they should also block Wikipedia, like China does. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 02:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

text: Why does China do that?  ←Kalajan→  16:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Because they like need coal in their stocking? ;) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Bad news: I've been to China and I could access Wikipedia.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion 

message: I noticed that Russia and at least one other member of the USSR have the communist Father Winter or Father Frost associated with New Years Day. This is quite interesting and should be explained. I would expect that Christmas itself is making a comeback in those nations. Kitfoxxe (talk) 19:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Former Communist countries

message: 'Father Christmas typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, but was neither a gift bringer, nor particularly associated with children. The pre-modern representations of the gift-giver from church history namely Saint Nicholas, Sinterklaas and folklore, merged with the British character Father Christmas, to create the character known to Americans as Santa Claus. Like Santa Claus, Father Christmas has been identified with the old belief in Woden (Odin to the Norse)[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11].'
'Father Christmas dates back at least as far as the 17th century in Britain, and pictures of him survive from that era, portraying him as a well-nourished bearded man dressed in a long green fur-lined robe. He typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, and was reflected as the "Ghost of Christmas Present" in the Charles Dickens's classic A Christmas Carol, a great genial man in a green coat lined with fur, who takes Ebenezer Scrooge through the bustling streets of London on Christmas morning, sprinkling the essence of Christmas onto the happy populace.'  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetie candykim (talk • contribs) 13:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No contradiction at all - if you read that again you'll see the paragraphs which refer to him not being associated with gift giving are written in the past tense, thus refering to the historical figure of Father Christmas. The other paragraph is in the present tense, and is talking about his modern incarnation as a fusion of Santa Claus and Father Christmas.missdipsy (talk) 13:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  contradiction 

message: I have doubts on the interpretations this article is giving about the 15th century carols. Rather than "personnifications" of some abstract notion, could not these "sire Christësmas" be alternative names for Child Jesus ?
"My lord" and "our king" are traditional titles for Jesus, aren't they ?
Doesn't "your coming" refer to the coming of Jesus, celebrated on Christmas ?
If so, I do not think we can use these carols as evidence of the existence of a "Father Christmas" who is a character distinct from Jesus. 
Teofilo talk 18:00, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not really clear what they mean and they don't use the term "Father Christmas" or give any indication of his character.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is 15th century carols' "Sire Christësmas" ? 

message: I did a new section on this article about where he appears on Films. So far I got Elf and The Polar Express. Those are my 2 favourites with Santa Claus--Father Christmas95 (talk) 18:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Any other films you can think of? 

message: I have just finished watching an episode of QI in which it was claimed that Father Christmas died on 30 May 1564. Christmas being a common name in Essex and the title "Father" being attributed to anyone old where their first name was not known. The death is apparently recorded in the Register of Deaths in the church at Dedham, Essex. I wouldn't know how to begin to find a satisfactory source for this, but I'm sure someone can - and it should be included in this article.
86.16.134.133 (talk) 19:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Why? It's just a curiosity.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death of Father Christmas 

message: Much of the history section has no definitive connection to Father Christmas (carols, Dickens etc).  And the pagan argument is very thin. As belief in Woden died out a thousand years before the appearance of Father Christmas, it's hard to credit that theory. There are a lot of benevolent old men with white beards in world folklore, but that doesn't make them all precursors of FC.
While it wasn't released for publication at the time, the fact is that in the 1920s JRR Tolkein began writing the Father Christmas Letters with a main character very much in the mould of Santa Claus which we know today.  There is no indication of how this arose.  
Moreover, there is no serious indication of how the tradition of Father Christmas differs from Santa Claus.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have deleted most of the remnant of this material.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:14, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: There seems no justification for claiming that the Ghost of Christmas Present from A Christmas Carol is Father Christmas.  He looks more like a representation of Bacchus in the illustration. The claim seems motivated by a desire to prove the Coca Cola Conspiracy, given the emphasis on his green cloak.  Similarly the Ben Jonson character is a personification of Christmas but not in itself a representation of Father Christmas. The same is true for the carols.
The article could mention that there were several personifications of Christmas, but to give them so much prominence is misleading. I think the picture should go.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they should stay, but need teasing out more.  The article doesn't distinguish between literary and folkloric characterisations of Christmas.  The 15th c. carols, Elizabethan drama, Jacobean masque and 17th c. pamphlet the article cites all belong to the literary tradition, and show 'Christmas' as the personification of a time of communal feasting, drinking and merrymaking.  He is always male and usually elderly but he doesn't bring gifts, is not associated with children, has no established distinguishing costume and is not called 'Father'. There's no evidence yet cited that at this early period he was a popular figure in folklore, or that anyone in Britain believed, or taught children to believe, in a supernatural being who would enter the home with gifts at Christmas time.  The evidence cited so far for that particular concept doesn't date back beyond the early Victorian era (I'd say the Barclay Fox diary entry shows it was emerging, as his 1842 party featured a figure of an old man called 'Father Christmas' who dresses in red and carries gifts for chidren.)  But this is long after the development of continental traditions regarding St Nicholas, or even the American Santa Claus, both of which seem to have influenced the evolution of 'Father Christmas'.RLamb (talk) 10:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Most of this material now deleted.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dickens 

message: I've lived in Australia my entire life(born 1993) and I've never heard anyone refer to Father Christmas as Santa Claus. Everyone I know calls him Father Christmas.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.239.159.52 (talk) 11:33, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm 20 years older and Australian and I've heard Santa mentioned all the time!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 09:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Speaking from England I think it depends on how you were brought up, however Santa is an Americanisation of Father Christmas in British terms at least. --wintonian talk 22:20, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Australia and New Zealand?

message: Todays Santa is from the 1931 Coca Cola advert.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.101.239.144 (talk) 23:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No, this is a myth. See more information on the Santa page.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:38, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coca Cola Santa - 1931 

message: The second picture in the article shows a Victorian card with a depiction of an English Father Christmas? Well, granted he's got a greenish robe and treats for the good kids - but his robe seems made of animal skins and he's also carrying a birch rod. So he's technically more a Belsnickel. He's a good example of the ongoing synthesis between imported German/American traditions of a gift-bringer, and the native English personification of Christmas.RLamb (talk) 09:38, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Possibly. We need confirmation who this is depicting. And merry Christmas!--Jack Upland (talk) 09:43, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect that image was included because of the green coat. Is there any historical evidence for the green coat???--Jack Upland (talk) 09:14, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think traditionally we blame Dickens, whose second Spirit (Christmas Present) wears, and was illustrated wearing, a loose green robe: "It was clothed in one simple green robe, or mantle, bordered with white fur."  But he isn't a 'Father' Christmas because he's young with dark curling hair.
Whether other, earlier references/illustrations exist I don't know. I'm better at searching old newspaper databases than image collections.  
Obviously the 17th c pamphlet illustration shows FC in a robe, but that just seems typical gear of the period for an older man of the gentry class.  Barclay Fox's 1840-ish Father Christmas effigy made for the kids' party wears a scarlet coat and cocked hat - a get-up that baffled me, because I hadn't seen any references to mumming plays when I read it. Now I suspect Fox had seen a mummers' Father Christmas, because the villagers who did mumming plays had very little in the way of costume and a soldier's scarlet coat was a prized object. The cocked hat would be literally old-hat by the 1840s, so appropriate wear for an 'old man' character.  
Until at least the 1970s I would say Father Christmas was often depicted wearing a loose scarlet robe trimmed with white fur. Now I think the Santa Suit is universal.
I can put this in a talk page but not in the article.RLamb (talk) 11:15, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

text: It is also sometimes said that FC had a hood. For what it's worth, Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters from the '20s and '30s depicts him in a suit, but he does seem to have a hood.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:12, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes - the 1970 reference to a robe came from a report ( in The Times, where else ?) of a trial in which the defendant, for reasons best known to himself, appeared in the dock in a 'Father Christmas robe'. AFAIR, the robes did always have a hood and not a separate hat. Though my memory is totally untrustworthy. RLamb (talk) 18:29, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't matter. If you can get your hazy memories reported by a media outlet then they become a reliable source according to Wikipedia policy.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:56, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, my visual memory is truly bad. So I googled "Father Christmas 2015" images and was surprised to find the hooded robe survives, but always scarlet, and always over a Santa suit. What's more, my finely-tuned English class radar tells me that an upmarket Father Christmas is much likelier to wear a robe than the workaday Santa hanging around outside Poundstretcher.  (See Harrod's Father Christmas - a disturbing mash-up of Santa/God the Father/Christ In Majesty.)RLamb (talk) 12:38, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the image should be deleted unless we can confirm that it is an image of Father Christmas.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that we need something better as a lead image. The upper picture shows a postcard by the English company Raphael Tuck, but the text - with New York coming before London - suggests that the card may have been printed for the US market.  The lower image has no provenance at all, and may not be of English origin. Is is said to be 'Victorian', but could easily show a figure other than the English FC: neither the robes nor the architecture look quite right.  In any event, both images are well into the 20th century and might still be copyright-protected in the UK, even if US copyright has expired. UK copyright expiry is necessary if the images are to remain on Commons (though if someone wants to transfer them to the English Wikipedia they could remain, as Wikipedia simply ignores UK copyright and relies on US law only).  Any suggestions for a better image? I am searching, but haven't found a really good one yet. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 04:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's an almost identical image which according to this blogpost shows a German postcard. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 05:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

text: I've found something more promising which I'll upload in the next day or two.--MichaelMaggs (talk) 04:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the text is in German. It looks like RLamb was right.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Beef about Belsnickel 

message: I doubt that it is often said that the red suit comes from Coca Cola. Are there any sources for that claim, other than the Coca Cola company itself?Royalcourtier (talk) 05:14, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a source in the article, and there are more sources in the Santa Claus article. And you can see someone made the claim here in 2012. Eduardo Galeano also made the claim in his book Mirrors (2009) (p 73). The claim is made against the Coca Cola Company. The company actually denies it.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The article says that the 1931 Coca Cola campaign standardised the red suit. This is belied by the current lead image of a red-suited Father Christmas from 1919. And then there's Tolkien's Father Christmas  Letters which was begun in 1920. I think the red suit probably came from Sinterklaas.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:58, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coca Cola 

message: I have removed the citation William J. Federer (2002). "There Really Is a Santa Claus: The History of St. Nicholas & Christmas Holiday Traditions" p. 39. Amerisearch, Inc., 2002, and the text it is said to support, as the book hardly appears to be a reliable source for the subject matter of this article. The book is very US-centric (around 80% is taken up with copies of US presidents' Christmas addresses over the years). The author has very little to say on Father Christmas, dedicating just two paragraphs to him out of 340 pages.  The relevant section reads in its entirety as follows:
The claim that Henry VIII introduced Father Christmas as a fully-realised figure similar to the one described by Dickens but based on the Roman god  is astonishing. If true, I would have expected other sources to mention it. I know of no historic or scholarly source that does so. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:35, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Does Federer give any sources for his claims?--Jack Upland (talk) 20:34, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The book has two pages of general bibliography (pp340-41 that can be seen on Amazon preview) but there are no sources linked to the text so it's impossible to say where specific statements come from. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:58, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliability of Federer (2002) as a source 

message: According to the current article, the 4th edition (1732) of the "Round About our Coal Fire" chapbook includes the subtitle "With memoirs of old Father Christmas; shewing what hospitality was in former times, and how little of it there remains at present".  However, the original reprinted text of that edition, a facsimile copy of which can be downloaded as a free ebook, does not mention FC at all, even in the title. The actual title is simply "Round about our Coal Fire: or, Christmas Entertainments". The latter title is shown on the Amazon UK site, but Amazon US - selling apparently the same facsimile of the same edition  -  adds the extra Father Christmas mention. I'm assuming that the editions are in fact slightly different, but in the absence of anything more than a title which mentions FC, the reference hardly seems to add much to this article. I have removed the text and reference, but if anyone has access to a university or other academic library login which gives the full text of the FC version, please let me know. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:46, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: We discussed this back in 2013. I still have a pdf of the book if anyone is interested. That "subtitle" (for want of a better word) appears at the bottom of the table of contents. Frustratingly, there isn't (as far as I can see) any other reference to FC in the text. FC is just a figure of speech. I think the significance of the mention is that it's relatively early.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:07, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be interested to see it. Would you be able to email me a copy? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 06:13, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure. What address?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:28, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. If you go to my talk page you should see an "Email this user" link in the tools section of the sidebar. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:33, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I couldn't see that because I hadn't added an email address for myself before now.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:53, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the copy. I've added back a sentence about the pamphlet. It seems to be a very well known and important source for Christmas traditions generally (and has the earliest known version of the tale of Jack and the Beanstalk), but unfortunately doesn't say anything at all within the text about Father Christmas. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that was when I really started losing faith in Father Christmas...--Jack Upland (talk) 10:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Round About our Coal Fire

message: I've deleted the text quoted below on the grounds that these are essentially trivial mentions of FC that don't add anything to the historical account. There are hundred of such trivial occurrences of FC that could be included, and as the article is long enough already I think we should concentrate on only the more significant sources.
:A writer in "Time's Telescope" (1822) states that in Yorkshire at eight o'clock on Christmas Eve the bells greet "Old Father Christmas" with a merry peal, the children parade the streets with drums, trumpets, bells, (or in their absence, with the poker and shovel, taken from their humble cottage fire), the yule candle is lighted, and "High on the cheerful fire i]s blazing seen th' enormous Christmas brand."Dawson, William Francis (2007). The Project Gutenberg eBook, Christmas: Its Origin and Associations Project Gutenburg Again evoking seasonal generosity, a letter to The Times in 1825, warning against poultry-dealers dishonestly selling off sub-standard geese at Christmas time, is jokingly signed "Father Christmas".FATHER CHRISTMAS, "Christmas Geese", The Times (London, England) dated 24 December 1825, page 4. from The Times Digital Archive, accessed 22 December 2012.
--MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:43, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleting two trivial mentions of FC

message: Does anyone have access to the Daily Telegraph archive? Apparently FC is mentioned in a leader of 25 December 1873. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Daily Telegraph archive

message: I've just looked through some 19th century English periodicals for depictions of Father Christmas. This seems to confirm this gist of what the article currently says. There are important differences with today's "Santa Claus" image: 
*The crown of holly (or mistletoe etc). This persists into the 1890s. Sometimes it is combined with a hood or pointed cap, but often it is not.
*The staff decorated with greenery, sometimes looking like a Christmas tree.
*The wassail bowl or punch bowl. Occasionally he is shown with bottles or goblets.
*Colour of clothes: the depictions I have seen are black and white, but here are some textual descriptions: blue gown with long red cloak over his shoulder; a long flowing robe of scarlet with cuffs, collar and belt; dressed in white and covered in snow.
For example, "A Musical Charade" (Routledge's Every Boy's Annual, 1871) describes "Old Father Christmas in a long white robe — beard — red face — crown of holly–berries — and big staff surmounted with evergreens". This does confirm the relevance of the "Christmas Carol" image, and does indicate that there is an English Father Christmas, after all. I have collected some references and images, but maybe the article is well-supplied with these already. I do think the article should be changed, though, because it implies that the depiction wasn't standardised in this period. I think it was standardised (apart from the colours), but elements of the standard were very different from today. Also, the text implies that the change happened after the 1840s, but I think it was more gradual than that.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:19, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's clear from some later 19th century depictions I have (not yet added to the article) that FC in his old form did indeed hang on for much longer than some of the historians thought - probably because they didn't have the advantage of being able to do electronic searches through newspapers and journals. I agree with your conclusions and will make the changes as I add more material. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:30, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this, from the periodical Fun in 1879, shows a transition in the depiction. Father Christmas is crowned with a wreath. He is holding something like a wassail bowl, but it is full of presents. And, while there are children in the picture, there are also young men attempting to kiss young women under the mistletoe.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:09, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: A very interesting image, and not one I'd seen. Will definitely slot it in. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I'm not sure the holly crown is "old-style", because I've found the same thing in the 1890s.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:27, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a shorthand for 'in the style that was often used by FC before SC came along'. Could spell that out but don't want too long an image caption. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:56, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Depiction 

message: It appears that the two characters were never completely separate, even before they merged. The Santa Claus page says that SC partly derived from FC. This seems to be true, as the merry-making fat man image doesn't seem to come from Sinterklaas. For what it's worth, Thomas Nast's seminal illustration has a crown of holly. The English FC was clearly known in the USA. Rose Terry Cooke, who was an American, wrote a poem called "Christmas": "Here comes old Father Christmas, With sound of fife and drums; With mistletoe about his brows..." This sounds more like the FC of Merry England than SC. I don't know the date, but I saw it in an English periodical from 1876.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:12, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The extent to which the American SC was influenced by the English FC is interesting, and there must be more to be said than the bald assertion that appears in the Santa Claus article. There has been quite a lot of good US-based research. I've ordered a copy of Restad's well-reviewed book Christmas: A History which I hope can be used to improve the Santa Claus page. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 02:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I've noticed that all the early American SC depictions have him smoking a pipe, but I haven't seen that with FC in the same period. And where did the reindeer come from?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:17, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

text: Does Santa's reindeer-drawn sleigh pre-date Moore?  He was in New York, where the Dutch influence was stronger than German: I can't see though why the Dutch would introduce something as foreign as reindeer into their folk traditions. But was it something Moore learned about from an existing tradition, or simply invented himself? I'm assuming horse-drawn sleighs were familiar to him. American caribou apparently were not domesticated, so it looks as if the reindeer-sleigh motif must have come ultimately from Europe, though perhaps only in the sense that a European/American writer who had read of such transport wove it into his fanciful vision of SC.RLamb (talk) 12:06, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: "Flying" in the sky definitely predates Moore (who may not have written the poem <g>).  Snow is common in the northern US  for sure - so use of a sleigh in late December would have seemed logical. By the 1820s, many non-Dutch folk were in New York.  One might note that New Sweden (including many Finns and others aware of the reindeer tradition was subsumed by the Dutch in 1655 - and became part of the New York cultural area.  Thus Moore would very likely have heard of that tradition (although it may have started with a single reindeer to pull the miniature sleigh!)  In fact, the Swedish-Finnish connection at that period was far stronger than any German tradition (which was centered in Pennsylvania). The landing of the Swedes and Finns in 1638 in Delaware was honoured with a postage stamp in 1938.  No great stretch here is needed. Collect (talk) 14:21, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

text: Some of Moore's ideas came from here, but I don't know their ultimate origin. More research needed for the Santa Claus article. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 23:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

text: The Finns and Swedes were in New Sweden from 1638 onwards - and they were in New Netherlands under the Dutch, and noted as such.  It is more than reasonable to believe that their traditions were still present in their communities, as they are to the present day.  Moore (putative poet) never wrote anything before or after "A Visit" in the same vein, and there is reasonable doubt as to the authorship.  The reindeer-drawn sleigh appears likely to be pre-Christian, in fact,  and is noted in references on Sami, Finnish and Swedish traditions.  And, like mistletoe, and holly, became a Christmas tradition.  The naming of the octet does appear to date to "A Visit" and other sets of names have been used by sundry authors (including Baum). Collect (talk) 23:54, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship to Santa Claus 

message: OK, I've pretty well finished the re-write.  I've tried to be guided by proper academic and historical sources, and have been able to eliminate website references (which are very often hopelessly unreliable) almost entirely.  I've been quite careful in attempting to comply with WP:V and WP:NOR and to reference every factual statement that could realistically be challenged. I hope you think it's an improvement. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:56, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a far better article. Far, far better. You have removed the concerns that I have held about the article for many years. I haven't proof-read the whole thing, but I will if I get the time. At the moment, I don't particularly like the lead image or the wording about Coca-Cola, but these are very minor issues. You have done a very good job.--Jack Upland (talk) 17:52, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've recently acquired a reader's ticket for the British Library which should help a lot in being able to check original sources that aren't available online.--MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:44, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  A better article now, I hope 

message: Sorry, I am not used to working on Wikipedia, but I am the one who changed 6 December in 5 December for the date on which in the Netherlands we have Sinterklaas. On that date (5 December) children receive a present in their shoe. In fact that is the date of Sinterklaasavond (Eve of St. Nicolas). So on the evening of 5th December we give presents with self written rhyming poems (sinterklaasgedichten). So the festive event is on 5th December. So it is not on 6th December (which is or was, the official day to commemorate the holy man in the Roman Catholic church; however when the Sinterklaas tradition developed our country was protestant). It is a mistake to mention 6th December for Sinterklaas. In the Netherlands, this is common knowledge. Any child believing in Sinterklaas knows his festive day is on 5 December. Just look at wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas
I hope this helps you. 
best regards,
Jurn Buisman (Netherlands)
jaw@buisman.net  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.57.122.147 (talk) 22:04, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I've made the change and added a new source for that information. The previously-cited source was rather ambiguous, and said "In Holland [shoes] were left out for St Nicholas to fill on December 6th". Perhaps the writer intended that to mean that the actual filling took place after midnight - but I agree that stating 5th as the date that shoes are actually left out makes more sense. MichaelMaggs (talk) 23:02, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing 6 December to 5 December 

message: Father Christmas as a gift giver predates "Santa Claus". I know that most of the British editors of Wikipedia are morons who often through ignorance despise their own culture, even to the point of thinking that Halloween itself is "American", but Jesus this one should be pretty obvious. 213.107.51.24 (talk) 12:21, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: If you know of reliable sources for that statement that aren't covered by the article, please mention them here.  MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:54, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Santa Claus isn't American