Talk:Psychology of torture

message: Does anyone else see this article as one long narrative about the benefits of torture ("it shatters deep down narcissistic fantasies of uniqueness, omnipotence, invulnerability, and impenetrability") followed by the benefits of overcoming torture?
I see this article as one long and for the most part sound study of the horrible detriments of torture, an overwhelming emphasis of victimhood forever, followed by a few statements (which I added) that show it is possible to overcome tortures detrimental effects.  I can see how this might be seen as above and it definitely needs integration/balance.  I also would suggest a distinction be made between essential, healthy, and normal development narcissism vs it's pathological forms so that no one mistakes torture as a 'benefit' to anyone here.
Anacapa 06:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Benefits of torture/benefits of overcoming torture

message: By: Sam Vaknin (Submitted to Wikipedia by the original copyright holder) 
:: I moved this byline from the third paragraph of the article and edited the article slightly to read as continuous prose. If it is on Wikipedia, it may be edited mercilessly, though Wiki editors might let most of this one might stand as it is because it is a well-written internally consistent article as it stands. But if it is on Wikipedia, the copyright is now a GNU public license, compliments of Sam Vaknin's generous donation. Thank you most sincerely, Sam, I only moved your byline here so others won't consider this article or any other article some sort of colony off-limits to further editing, so you won't be cited as sole author in the event others make edits, and to clarify that you generously donated your copyright to the public domain. 
::SoCal 20:43, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems the article really says more about torture than it does about the mechanisms, etiology, diagnosis, treatment, implications and theories of psychological pain. Strictly speaking, this is a reasonably comprehensive and accurate essay on the Psychology of torture. The concept of psychological pain is an element of torture, but is not explained here as it is appreciated in developmental psychology or in various theories of personality. SoCal 20:58, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I understand. I browsed into this article from a link about psychological pain and the bolded first words are psychological pain but the article is titled psychology of torture and that is the title in the wiki link. I tripped over a style deviation, so I'll fix it. SoCal 22:49, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: SoCal's comments/Narcissism

message: Isn't the subject of this article really psychological torture, not the psychology of torture? Niteowlneils 01:34, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: title questions

message: What on Earth does this bit mean?
There is no certain victim here.
Last, but not least, torture induces associated psychological effects in those who inflict it. To torture can torture the torturer too. Diabolical torturers use subjects to torture subjects. This article studies the psychological effects associated with torture to the subject, not by the torturer or by the subject.
While to torture probably can torture the torturer, most of this is very POV and/or nearly incomprehensible. Rōnin 03:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: (no certain victim) I added that to show that people choose how they cope with torture.  There are no CERTAIN  victims because some people are able to overcome torture without becoming victims.  The original article is solid.  However, it ignores those few and amazing people who either overcome their torturer's tactics at incidence or who tranform themselves following torture.  To claim that ALL people who suffer torture are victims or victims forever is false.  Maybe there is a clearer way to state this. 
(torture tortures the torturer)  Former torturers have written about the ugly effects to them from torturing others.  Obviously, anyone being tortured who is forced to torture others suffers severe effects too.  Sorry about the 'tortured' language but that is the point I want to be shown here.
As to POV, I will be glad to source this as soon as I can.  However, the basic point of view that I insist on here is that torture is a (diabolical) and dialectal dance between torturer and torturee that has effects to both sides.  I don't want this article to become ALL about the effects of torture to the torturer but I do want to mention them, and to show that one especially diabolical torture tactic is to torture by forcing one to torture others.  For example in WWII, the Japanese would force a POW to bury other wounded POW's alive at bayonet- point, which often induced terrible effects in the surviving POW.
Anacapa 06:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, I see. Well, I guess what I should have said was that the statement seemed a bit broad and categorical, because it isn't incomprehensible, really. I don't have any knowledge of this area though, so I'll leave you to it. :) Rōnin 01:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe some children buy the "this hurts me more than it hurts you" line, but we're talking about more than a swat on the bottom here, and the torturer is not a parent having to watch his child suffer.  No doubt there is some graphic imagery that sticks in a torturer's mind, but graphic imagery sticks in the mind of paramedics and police officers and firemen too.  Perhaps they despise themselves, but they're not alone there either.  To liken their situation to that of the victim seems altogether unreasonable. 70.15.116.59 04:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What on Earth 

message: I tried to to make distinctions between torturee/torturer here, state titles in non-psychological-profession language and clean up section titles.  There is still much to do here.  I see condensation and much additional material in the torturer sections.  I also see cleaner titles and a cleaner main article title.  Few people know what the 'psychology' of anything means unless they are psychologists.  I suggest 'Psychological Aspects of Torture' or something like that instead.  Please comment/suggest changes.Anacapa 04:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Layout changes

message: In addition to the tortured and the torturer there are often bystanders, whistleblowers, and others who participate in or who are associated with the torture (voluntarily or involuntarily).  Torture has psychological effects on these people too.  I suggest we add a section called 'Others' and study these roles there in much less depth.  Please comment/suggest.
Anacapa 04:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Section on cast of ''other'' characters associated with torture?

message: Methinks that adding wikilinks brings this article more into line with wikipedia policy.  It still needs organisation, some changes of tone and the removal of a few apparently-contradictory passages (these will probably disappear once the text is organised more logically.  Well, got to go - many more articles to wikify!  Happy-melon 16:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wikified

message: * Physical torutree is not always brutal and hard to hide. A large part of it is intended to be nearly impossible to detect.
* Removed paragraph:
::"Since this article discusses the psychological effects associated with torture, it is also worthwhile to separate torture and its associated effects. Torture succeeds with some subjects and fails with others because people can choose responses to cope with it. Torture induces the most severe effects in those subjects least able to cope with it, and the least severe effects in those most able to cope with it."
:(OR-ish, intended to be "positive thinking". But lacks clinical thoughtfulness or citation)
* Move explanation of psych pain/stress higher up before it's referenced in detail.
* Rename section heads to more accurately reflect section contents.
* Move "overcoming" to own section
* "Effect on torturer" intro is OR. replaced by direct lead in to following section, which summarizes why people torture, and then goes on to the effect on the torturer, avoidjng speculative editorial opinion. Also remove quote which poses a tangetial question but adds nothing to the section.
FT2 (Talk | email) 00:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summary of minor edits 

message: the term "physiological pain" is actually a neurophysiological term and means nociception: the system which carries info about near-damage or damage to tissue to the spinal cord and brain. It is NOT in conscious awareness and so is not felt. A different way of talking about pain caused by physical injury needs to be found for this article cause this use is confusing. SmithBlue 02:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  physiological pain = nociception = not in consciouness 

message: There's an unsourced paragraph about how "good" people can torture under the right circumstances... sounds like a bunch of hooey to me.  It seems much more plausible that the majority of people simply are evil, but without tight sourcing and clear definitions the whole thing is useless verbiage. 70.15.116.59 03:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You might change the language but I think the intent here is reasonable.  One of the most famous psychological studies ever used 'normal' people to mock-torture others with electrical shocks.  The psychology of torture seems to include the psychological methods which can be used to induce 'normal' everyday people to torture.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.214.255.148 (talk) 04:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "good" people torture? 

message: There's a blurb about overcoming psychological effects of torture, but I think this article needs information about how Special Forces types learn to resist torture, or other methods by which people have tried to resist or survive the process. 70.15.116.59 04:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  This article is about the psychology of torture.  That includes the ways torturers use psychology as well as the ways which possible victims try to use psychology to become more immune from anticipated torture methods.  What can be torture to some 'victims' can be merely amusing to others...thanks to such factors72.214.255.148 (talk) 04:29, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resistance to torture 

message: As I read the article, I noticed that most of the content is about the overall psychology of torture so I changed the title to reflect that.  The torture article already covers psychological torture.  This article seems to be intended to cover the psychological dynamics that make torture of any kind possible rather than to duplicate content on psychological torture which belongs in the torture article.
I'll try to clean up the introduction to make this distinction clearer unless other editors come back with widely differing opinions on the intent of this article.   Please discuss how you see this. 72.214.255.148 (talk) 05:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tried to clarify the title paragraph

message: Please take a look at the introduction I edited.  I pulled content on psychological torture over to the torture page to prevent confusion with the psychology of torture.  Please comment or edit this first stab to make it clearer and cleaner. 72.214.255.148 (talk) 07:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Tried to introduce the article

message: I've pretty much gutted the page.  Huge swaths of the page were unsourced (removed per WP:PROVEIT) advanced a position (removed per WP:OR) or read like essays (ditto).  I also removed a lot of low-value links per WP:EL.  I'm sure there is a good page that could be written, but this wasn't it.  Writing a page with "X person's FANTASTIC opinion about torture is ____" doesn't work.  WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 15:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gutted 

message: Link provided to "John Conroy" 1786-1854. It is not the same "John Conroy" who wrote "Unspeakable Acts, Ordinary People,"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.27.19.216 (talk) 00:22, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong Link 

message: I'd like to make you aware of the fact that another user temporarily restored an older,  considerably longer revision of this article (ca. revision 2009-01-08T16:17:41) as he found this revision more correct and informative than the current one (ca. revision 2012-11-14T16:21:06‎). See also: Discussion on his talk page: User talk:Permaculturedesigner#April 2013. I reverted him since the contents were originally deleted because they did not met our quality standards and also to not trash other contributions. According to the edit history, the old article had various issues like usage of non-encyclopedic language, potential use of original research or unreliable sources, or a neutral point of view not being maintained. Nevertheless, there's a chance that some useful stuff was deleted alongside questionable content when the article was trimmed down years back. Since the article in the current form certainly lacks in various aspects as well, perhaps someone more familiar with this subject should re-evaluate the old revision () and if useful material is found merge it back into the current article? Greetings. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 23:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restoration of old article contents 

message: Most of the article is uncited, large sections are misleading, irrelevant or feature a strong Anti-Psychiatry viewpoint. Which would be fine in moderation but it disgresses severely from the topic of the article. Past commentators have mentioned edit wars and reverts, so I'd like to propose it'll be best to start from scratch. Possibly renaming it to 'Psychological Effects of Torture' just to give it more focus and have a blueprint for what sections, and what sources could be used to expand upon it. The section on how Victims are affected reads like a personal opinion essay and only the last paragraph is on-topic.  86.155.67.172 (talk) 22:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consider Deletion and Rewriting from Scratch. 

message: I have copied the introductory section to [my Sandbox]  to begin providing some potential changes.Y-B Marmot 13:14, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Making New Edits 

message: I have revised the copied the entire page and provided suggested edits and additions within [my Sandbox].  Please take a look and let me know what suggested changes you recommend.  Y-B Marmot 23:15, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Revised Page is Ready for Review

message: A good section of this caught my eye as being nearly word-for-word what I'd just read in a different source.  After a little backtracking I found an article from the National Library of Medicine.  Note, for example, the line "One of the most marked differences is between individualist societies where realisation of personal goals often takes priority over the needs of kin and societal expectations, and collectivist societies in which the needs of family and prescribed roles take precedence over personal preferences" -- the Wiki's version here is somewhat reworded, but still noticeably close and not even cited.
Could someone compare the articles, figure out if parts should be quoted or reworded/rearranged, and properly cite the material? Kilyle (talk) 08:36, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can someone check for plagiarism?