Talk:Military dictatorship of Chile

message: Did Pinochet 'only' persecute his political opponents or did he deem various social or ethnic groups 'unwanted' as well? If he didn't, he's a milestone among dictators. Joffeloff 21:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not aware of any particular ethnic targets, although I believe his regime was pretty tough on anyone deemed sexually "deviant". But that doesn't particularly make him that unusual among Latin American dictators, especially in countries where there was no large, traditionalist Native American population. - Jmabel | Talk 06:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What about the Mapuche in the south? How was they treated? Adville (talk) 12:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pinochet's persecution of other groups 

message: "In 1973 GDP was at 1.147 billion, in 1990 it was at 9245.500 billion " This is technically true, but if you check the source it is denominated in "Billions of National Currency  (1E-09)", that is, in Chilean pesos. This is not a 6000-fold increase in production, or anything approaching that; it is mostly inflation of the currency. Over the same period, the CPI (consumer price index) goes from 0.01500 to 40.70800 . So if we index to CPI/, the increase is only about a factor of 2.97. Not too shabby, but dwarfed when you multiply it by 2714-fold inflation! - Jmabel | Talk 06:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cut: true, but incredibly misleading 

message: An anon has placed at the head of the article . I have no idea what the issue might be. I can't imagine anyone doubting that Allende was head of state before the coup, so I assume that the issue must be with Marxist.
As discussed about a year ago at Talk:Salvador Allende#Allende a marxist?, Allende was a founder in the 1930s of the Chilean Socialist Party, which was always overtly Marxist. He was not a Leninist, if that is the point. But he was a Marxist. 
This page from Socialist Outlook has excerpts from an article by Tariq Ali, which gives a citation to Regis Debray (Conversations p118) for the following quotation from Allende:
We consciously entered into a coalition in order to be the left wing of the system – the capitalist system, that is. By contrast, today, as our program shows, we are struggling to change the system … Our objective is total, scientific, Marxist socialism. 
The Debray book should not be hard to find, and may have more.
The following all unqualifiedly call Allende Marxist:
* Encyclopedia Britannica
* CNN
* Spartacus School Net 
* New York Times reporting at the time of the coup
* Isabel Allende's publisher calling him a "Marxist-Leninist" (which I disagree with, and which none of the others say). 
Given this, unless someone can explain within a week what is POV about the characterization, I think the tag should be removed. - Jmabel | Talk 20:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV? 

message: Merging Government Junta of Chile (1973) seems reasonable to me, unless someone thinks that this article will grow enough that we'd just find ourselves spinning it back off. - Jmabel | Talk 21:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed merge 

message: Pinochet's neoliberal economic policies' benefits have been sharply contested. In 1973, unemployment was only 4.3% time when the government employed many of Chile's citizens.  Following ten years of junta rule in 1983, unemployment had risen to 22%. Real wages declined by more than 40%. In 1970, 20% of Chile's population lived in poverty. In 1990, in the last year of Pinochet's dictatorship, poverty doubled to 40%. James Petras and Fernando Ignacio Leiva, Democracy and Poverty in Chile: The Limits to Electoral Politics, Between 1982 and 1983 during the worldwide economic slump, the GDP dropped 19%, largely as a result of a downturn in the copper market. In 1970, the daily diet of the poorest 40 percent of the population contained 2,019 calories. By 1980 this had fallen to 1,751, and by 1990 it was down to 1,629. Furthermore, the percentage of Chileans without adequate housing increased from 27 to 40 percent between 1972 and 1988, despite the government's boast that the new economy would solve homelessness.ibid In 1970, the richest one-fifth of the population controlled 45% of the wealth, after much of their wealth had been seized by president Montalva.  In comparison the poorest one-fifth controlled 7.6%. In 1989, the richest one-fifth controlled 55% of the wealth while the poorest one-fifth controlled 4.4%ibid
I moved this from the Augusto Pinochet article. The results of economic policy should be discussed here (or maybe in a more properly titled article). Intangible2.0 13:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  poverty (moved from Augusto Pinochet article) 

message: many among the ultra-rich people in chile are not related to the traditional rich but were opportunists who took advantage of connections to the gangsterial power to land sweet deals and take over huge portions of the chilean economy.  this sociological cataclysm needs to be stressed and there are several books about it.
during the gangster's rule the military "acquired" significant real state and land holdings.  this needs to be mentioned since it changed the ownership landscape of chile.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.104.218 (talk) 16:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  needed: how the regime created a new class of ultra rich, and the public and private resources appropriated by the military 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Chile Junta002.jpg

message: That section is nonsense. It is the frenzy of just one journalist which is known for repeted lies. I think this section should not be kept in WP, as long as there are no other sources for it. 83.158.13.117 (talk) 20:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  French support 

message: Pinochet was never head of state or President of Chile, and therefore never had head-of-state immunity, if there is such a thing. His appointment was illegitimate. Just because you steal something, doesn't make it yours. Grassynoel (talk) 15:48, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's right, just becuase a rule is unjust does'nt mean does'nt rule. There are many such examples throughout history.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elcaballooscuro (talk • contribs) 14:43, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, Augusto Pinochet forced then President Salvador Allende was forced to commit suicide. Pinochet killed the former President and therefore became President. 190.141.88.36 (talk) 19:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  President of Chile: really? 

message: Comparing the Spanish version this line (Partidarios y detractores se refieren a él como Gobierno militar y Dictadura militar, respectivamente/ Supporters and detractors refer to it as a military government and military dictatorship respectively.)  makes me think, did we get the name right?
The name of the Spanish version is Régimen Militar (Chile), should we rename this one Military Regime of Chile ? any thoughts? Likeminas (talk) 02:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If the purpouse is to focus on the whole epoch and not just government perhaps Military Regime (Chile) or Régimen Militar would be better than Military Regime of Chile. Dentren | Talk 10:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: That's ok with me Dentren, should we go ahead and make the change? Likeminas (talk) 19:45, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Military Regime (Chile), Military Regime of Chile or Régimen Militar (Chile)? I would incline towars an option involving the last, since it would differentiate it from other military regimes and will be more easy to conceptualize as an epoch   defined by the regime, just like Victorian era goes beyond the queen and the term Age of Liberty goes beyond to define a whole epoch in Swedish history. The title Régimen Militar (Chile) would give similar aproach to the article. Translation into english Military Regime (Chile) would, in my opinion, give a less epoch-like outlook and more centered in the military and government, but is still an option. Dentren | Talk 09:45, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a delicate subject for chileans, but the title "Military Regime (Chile)" is considered to be more neutral, because it stands in the middle of two points of view or extreme positions. People from one side calls it 'government', because it has a 'positive connotaion' to them, and people form the other side calls it 'dictatorship', because it has a 'negative connotation' to them. After many discussions, mainly done by chileans, the term "Military Regime (Chile)" was the one considered more neutral, and the one that included both visions. Therefore, the article should be renamed to Military Regime (Chile), since it wasn't a government when it was a dictatorship, and legally, it wasn't a dictatorship when it was a government. 3BRBS (talk) 14:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, bad or inhumane a government is government. Regime has the advantage of accomodating more than pure government issues, as I understand it a regime is broader than a government. I have a negative opinion on the rule of military in Chile and I guess most people will come to think the same when they read in the lead some of the aspects that characterized it. Conclusion: the name is not too important. But if a change in name brings more stability to the article (which it already seems to have) it might be worth some consideration. Chiton magnificus (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

text: Yes, I agree, a government is a government, but there are kinds and kinds, and also, the whole period, might not be considered a single unit, or single way of government (which wasn't), therefore the title could be misleading. The name might not create that much conflict in english, but I still consider it unaccurate to the situation, and besides stability we should consider also: neutrality in the point of view, and consistency with other articles. I don't want to move the article's name on my own... anyone in favour?--3BRBS (talk) 13:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

text: To make this article fit other Chilean articles I'm actually thinking "Military Regime (Chile)" would be better widening its scope beyond just government but to describre under it a societal, economic and cultural epoch in Chile, just like it has been done on the Spanish wiki. Chiton magnificus (talk) 13:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Therefore, it should be moved! Please proceed ;)--3BRBS (talk) 18:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, move the article. Adville (talk) 11:05, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I do not agree. If you look up the definitions of "regime" and "dictatorship" it is clear that the first is more general than the second. A Regime can be feudal, democratic, etc. Whereas a Dictatorship is a particular type of regime. Even more so, a Military dictatorship is a particular type of dictatorship, and I think that is what we had in Chile. I made the same claim in the spanish article and it was accepted. I propose moving the article to "Military dictatorship in Chile (1973-1990)", so whoever locked this option please unlock it. Cheers! --Shuvit90 (talk) 13:10, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Yup, you do not agree, and it's fine, but still 'Regime' is better than 'Government', and this article is still called "Military Government". About your claim that in spanish was changed, I believe you are wrong becasue its still called Régimen Militar. So, at least some should change the title of the article to 'Regime'.--3BRBS (talk) 13:49, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's then move the article to "Military dictatorship in Chile (1973-1990)", it is like 3BRBS said anyway better than any title containing government.Chiton (talk) 17:51, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Moved to "Military dictatorship of Chile (1973–90)", per Chiton. Küñall (talk) 19:48, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I missed the last point by Chiton. Just want to say I agree with taht and with your move, Kuñall. Adville (talk) 20:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Can someone please read the last three edits by the IP number 128.151.150.17? He/she erased 5 400 bytes of fact that in my eyes tries to give another view of the dictatorship. He/she also also changed the article about the dictator Augusto Pinochet, but I changed that back. Adville (talk) 07:33, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I Copied the last version not written by the IP-number of the article. That after no reaction here and after reading on the ip-numbers talkpage User talk:128.151.150.17 that it is warned earlier for similar editings. Adville (talk) 15:54, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV-pushing 

message: Pinochet started his rule in 1974 yet this section averages in Allende's economic shortfalls with Pinochets: "Between 1970 and 1989, there were large cuts to incomes and social services. "  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kokothegorilla3 (talk • contribs) 03:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Social Consequences 

message: (Lihaas (talk) 19:11, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: I just cut a significant amount of content; the reason simply being that a vast number of differing estimates add very little to the article. I have kept the most notable of them, as well as the largest ones, so that no significant detail is lost. I have axed the questionable intermediate estimates. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:43, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you also help to shape the lead? I have some disagreements with an other user there. I don't want to engage in an edit war. Sietecolores (talk) 17:15, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: @Sietecolores: I was planning to look at the lead; what were the specific issues you had? Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is prone to partisan POV-pushes from one side and the other. The issue is about presenting the dictatorship in a neutral POV and to establish at least a weak consensus on what is be mentioned there. This article is prone to partisan POV-pushes from one side and the other. Sietecolores (talk) 18:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

text: It is not presented in Wikipedia's voice, and the source seems to be a reliable one, so I don't see to much of a problem. Estimating any such number during an authoritarian regime is always fraught with difficulty, and is bound to create wildly different estimates......If you found a source directly disputing the methodology of this one, though, we could perhaps remove it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trimming 

message: Source Wright, T.C.; Oñate, R. (2005), "Chilean Diaspora", in I., Skoggard, Encyclopedia of Diasporas: Immigrant and Refugee Cultures Around the World II, pp. 57–65 talks about 200,000 people exiled by the dictatorship: I wonder if these author might not have got it wrong, because plenty of people did also migrated for purely (or mostly) economic reasons, like the Crisis of 1982. Sietecolores (talk) 22:21, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not presented in Wikipedia's voice, and the source seems to be a reliable one, so I don't see to much of a problem. Estimating any such number during an authoritarian regime is always fraught with difficulty, and is bound to create wildly different estimates......If you found a source directly disputing the methodology of this one, though, we could perhaps remove it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: 200,000 exiled?

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I had a student that was going to work on the Economy and Free Market Reforms section, but they never merged any of their information. They have some draft work at User:KarenPerez96/sandbox#Economy_and_Free_Market_Reforms, but I'm not really sure what could be merged into the article. I wanted to post it here so that someone more familiar with the topic can judge whether or not it should be merged. Offhand it looks good, but I don't know if it duplicates too much of the content that's already in the article. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:52, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not sure if this can/should be merged 

message: The very high estimates: Other sources place the number of all the victims of the dictatorship as high as 15,000 killed and 2,000 disappeared should be considered fringe and may be mentioned (because until 1990 we didn't know anything for sure), but then this must be done carefully and with further explanation. I.e. it seems it's a 1990 estimate that has just been mentioned again in 2016. That is to say, I guess no-one really believed in 2016 any more that the 15,000 victims estimation was accurate.Italofiil (talk) 00:40, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that 15,000 is a very high number and not in line with the Spanish version of the article where these things have been scrutinized more thoroughly. I suggest we use the formulation, numbers, and sources used in the Spanish version of the article here. Dentren | Talk 14:52, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  The very high estimates 

message: This regime was clearly totalitarian, throwing people out of helicopters and sending them to torturing centers for having the "wrong ideologies". If we label stalinist and fascist regimes as such, then we also do the same for neoliberal military dictatorships like this one. --Comrade-yutyo (talk) 21:10, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, the sources that you have presented (, ) fail to substantiate the label, as explained in detail here. (Furthermore, opinion pieces cannot be used for such a statement in wikivoice per WP:RS: ) Regardless of the perceived truth of the matter, it is against Wikipedia's content policies to introduce unverifiable material. Please self-revert.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Totalitarian is an inaccurate label for the regime. Life continued as normal for many Chileans, the regime did never invaded the intimacy of private life and propaganda was much reduced when compared with classical "totalitarian" examples of the Old World. Dentren | Talk 23:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Totalitarianism 

message: The article calls the 1980 Chilean constitutional referendum a "sham referendum". Irregularities, questioning and accusations of bias do not automatically transform a referendum into a sham. I suggest describing the problems of the referendum in other terms. Dentren | Talk 23:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Sham referendum?

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: consensus to move (non-admin closure) Reading Beans (talk) 20:32, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Military dictatorship of Chile (1973–1990) →  – Simply because of WP:PRECISE: 
* 
The current title seems to imply that there were other military dictatorships in Chile other than the one from 1973–1990, but there weren't any. The title "Military dictatorship of Chile" is unambiguous, and sufficient. Mathglot (talk) 02:07, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

text: Support appears to be a WP:MISPLACED situation. estar8806 (talk) ★ 04:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

text: What do you propose, then? You're within you rights to ask for a closure review, if you think it was wrong. I searched before I posted, and found nothing in the first 100 results (books: 1-100; journals: results 1-10; results 91-100) having to do with anything other than Pinochet's time. Mathglot (talk) 00:12, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not opposed to the renaming, I just meant to correct your statement, as there were some other military dictatorships in Chile ("there weren't any"). Have a good day! Bedivere (talk) 03:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 20 September 2023