Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 18

message: I've removed one item from ITN. The reason is that currently the FA of the day is very short while OTN is pretty long, forcing DYK to be way too long. Moreover, there is currently a shortage of DYK hooks. If anybody is really bummed about my decision, feel free to revert it.--Carabinieri 15:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shortening of ITN 

message: I think the wording could probably be improved. "suspending missionary work in Afghanistan" is pretty general and implies that any missionary work of any kind (be it Buddhist, Christian, or whatever) is prohibited, although the various articles I've read only seem to say that specifically Christian missionary work has been forbidden. --136.223.3.130 13:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Korean missionaries 

message: ----
:From WP:ERRORS
The image is of a waxwork of Pavarotti, not of the man himself. Also, the image is nominated for deletion due to a possible copyright vio. – Tivedshambo (talk) 22:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Get rid of it. Now. This is not only dishonest, it's begging to be written up in some second-rate newspaper column. --zenohockey 22:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this needs to be removed. The image is a photograph of a wax figure of Pavarotti and the news bit says "Italian tenor Luciano Pavarotti (pictured) dies of pancreatic cancer" but that is not Pavarotti that is pictured. --Pixelface 23:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Zeno, that seems like an overreaction. Bad press is both improbable and not the end of the world. This is very tame as editorial dishonesty goes; I found it fairly funny. What would be wrong with writing "wax sculpture pictured" (presuming the photo is not a copyvio)? This is hardly a situation which warrants panicking. — Dan | talk 07:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I have removed the image in question and returned to the hurricane picture (yes, I've re-uploaded and protected and everything) per the multiple complaints about passing of a was statue as Luciano Pavarotti. Picaroon (t) 23:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Luciano Pavarotti image

message: I am thinking Steve Fossetts dissapearance is likely worth of ITN listing.  Its likely he is dead (but not positive), he went missing while doing something he is an acknoledged expert at (flying a plane).  He is certainly an internationally recognized figure as well.  But I didnt ad it to the ITN suggestion list as I am not sure if it is right to do it now, or wait for the search to either find him or not. Curious as to others opinions Russeasby 02:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ITN is not a news service. We only list items that are of an encyclopedic quality. Fossett's article is borderline in this case. The rule of thumb I apply here is; does the article have more information regarding the event than one would expect from a news service? Right now nothing much is known. Possibly after all the facts come to light and a substantial update is made to the article we could include it. --Monotonehell 03:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Steve Fossett 

message: I have noticed there has been a little bit of a recent edit war over the posting of Luciano Pavarotti's death. Therefore, it might help if somebody can explain how his death fits under ITN Criterion #5, especially if it qualifies under Part B which reads, "the deceased was a key figure in their field of expertise, and died unexpectedly or tragically". Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 13:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll second this. How exactly was the death unexpected or particularly tragic? Borisblue 13:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Regarding the mini edit war. We should NEVER have a situation where an item is put in and pulled out multiple times. It just looks tacky. - It's a very subjective criterion. "Unexpectedly or tragically" for example, it's a matter of opinion whether someone dieing of cancer is tragic or not. There seems to be those who view it this way and so say it should be included and those who don't. I don't think there's a black and white answer on this point. The criterion is open to interpretation. We should probably discuss what outcomes would be beneficial to the project and then adjust the criteria to fit. --Monotonehell 14:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that criterion No 5 was added after a discussion whether ITN should or should not include obituaries. Maybe we need to clarify the criterion in a footnote? If possibly, I think "Recent deaths" should have its own category on the main page, as articles, such as Pavarotti and Bergman, draw such extraordinary interest imediately after the notice of death. --Camptown 14:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

text: It's a pity that we can't make editorial decisions based on common sense and good judgment on what makes the ITN section good and up to date. Instead of having to base everything on strict rules. The death of Pavaraotti is in the news all over the world today, much more so than the Turkish election we're still talking about on the main page 10 days after the election ended.  Because of his death, many people will want to read and learn more about the life of Pavarotti today, and we are the one site that really should be giving them that info. And the ITN section is the obvious place to put a pointer to our bio on him.  Pavarotti was a really world famous person, a leading figure in his field. But if we really need rules about cases like this: How about if we say that if a person has a bio in 50 different language editions of wikipedia, we deem him/her world famous, and we list their death on ITN. No matter how "tragically" the death was (whatever that means). Can anyone find a bio with 50 interwiki links whose death would not be reported in length world wide in the media? Shanes 15:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say his death was unexpected. Sure, it's pacreatic cancer, but who here knows that the disease has a high mortally rate? Only some medicine geeks, perhaps. I haven't even heard he's sick; and even if he's sick, nobody except for medicine geeks expected him to die this early. --Howard the Duck 15:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Cancer at the age of 71 probably always has a high mortality rate. I don't know if I would say his death was expected but I definitely wouldn't say it's unexpected. Also I'm sure it was tongue in cheek but whether or not you knew of his illness is IMHO somewhat irrelevant. I'm sure there were some people who weren't aware the last Pope was sick either but I don't think anyone would say his death was unexpected. (Of course he was included based on other criteria but I'm just making the point here) Nil Einne 16:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Accdg. to our article, it was unclear prior to Sept. 5 that he was really that sick (on Aug. 15 it was announced he was to be released soon). I don't know of his disease has been known by a lot of people prior to this (as opposed to the previous Pope's disease which was apparent for the latter part of his reign). The only recent definite news about his grave condition was on Sept. 5. He died the next day, hence unexpected, since he surely should've lived a longer time (I remembered George Best had a month's worth of news before he died). --Howard the Duck 16:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Having recently ignored the death of the directing giants Ingmar Bergman and Michelangelo Antonioni (who died the same day), it would actually be quite provocative to include Pavarotti now. Bondkaka 19:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But they didn't satisfy the criterion #5. Pavarotti barely satisfies it. --Howard the Duck 03:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I only raised the Pope issue to point out whether or not you knew he was sick was irrelevant. Whether or not other people knew he was sick is IMHO a somewhat different matter. While it's clear that most people weren't exactly expecting him to die, I still argue his death wasn't unexpected precisely because of his condition (he had cancer and was 71). Just because something wasn't expected doesn't mean it was unexpected IMHO. Nil Einne 07:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Given that ITN has been pretty much the same for ages, I think we would do well to apply the rules a little less strictly.  If Pavarotti barely satisfies criterion #5, then lets list him on ITN.  Better still, lets have some other new content showcased here. Greenshed 22:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ITN Criterion #5 and [[Luciano Pavarotti]] 

message: Hello, I'm proposing that Template:In the news be renamed to Template:Current events, or something close to that.  This would more accurately reflect the inclusion criteria of making it into the template.  As per the guide at Template:In the news:
In the news mentions and links to entries of timely interest—that is, encyclopedia articles that have been updated to reflect an important current event—rather than conventional news items.
Additionally, the term "current event" is used extensively in the numbered criteria for inclusion listed at Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates (points 1, 2, 5).  The first criteria for inclusion is in fact that a story be included at :Portal:Current events, so this would help standardize the names of things with similar functions over the English Wikipedia.
At Template:In the news and Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page, great lengths are taken to avoid using the term "news" to describe what should be included in the template.  Updating the name of this service to something closer to the inclusion criteria, and more consistent with Portal:Current events, would improve the encyclopedia. 
Please note that Template:Current events is currently an empty re-direct to Portal:Current events/Sidebar.  Kurieeto 12:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Like the Main Page, In the news has been called that basically since it was created around 2001, and has remained there due to to historical inertia. The last time a rename was proposed was back in 2006 but did not get anywhere (see the discussion). A number of alternative names were proposed, but iirc, the concerns over what alternative name to actually use was whether they would cause more new users to misinterpret the purpose of In the news: to feature encyclopedia articles that have been updated to reflect important current events, not a 24/7 constantly updated news service. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 14:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually in a discussion after that we gained near consensus to change the name to "Read more about..." But the change involved a restructure as well that was never fully worked through. Then Christmas hit. We did get quite close to working out how to better state the criteria in order to better serve the section's purpose. I keep meaning to resurrect the discussion, but I keep getting distracted by shiny things. =^.^= --Monotonehell 16:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to rename In the news to Current events 

message: This does not belong, in my opinion. This was not a longstanding record; the previous record was set two years ago. By Powell himself. This is, therefore, not exactly a groundbreaking achievement for him (or at all). -- tariqabjotu 07:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to be a tradition to note the new 100m speed on ITN, I believe I was the one who added it two years ago. --Golbez 14:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I don't think we really should be going by 'tradition', consensus can change. However I do feel this was okay although don't really feel that strongly either way. Nil Einne 20:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Asafa Powell 

message: I think this should be in the ITN section on the fromt page, maybe as:
Formula One team McLaren have been excluded from the 2007 Formula One Constructors Championship and to pay a fine of $100 million dollars, pending appeal.
This has been reported on many news channels this evening, and is major sports news. Davnel03 19:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Already discussed on ITN/C, and posted. --PFHLai 16:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[2007 Formula One espionage controversy]] 

message: I acknowledge that there is an article in the name of reclusión perpetua, but this is Wiki in English, and the front page should not have foreign language terms that are not part of the vocabulary of a reasonably well educated English speaker.  Can I suggest a minimum of 30 years imprisonment or something similar?  Kevin McE 10:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As explained on WP:ERRORS by Nil Einne, reclusión perpetua is a specific legal term with a specific meaning in the Philippines. Let's keep it. People who don't know it can click and read. We are not calling El Niño "the Baby", eh? :-)  --PFHLai 15:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please do not be insulting and sarcastic.  I specifically excluded foreign language terms that have become part of English in my comments.  Yes: people can click and read, but the whole point of a headline is to inform, and the use of phrases that are not part of the English language does not inform English speakers.  Kevin McE 19:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: it's a proper noun. "Joseph Estrada" isn't part of the English language either. But  your suggestion of "a minimum of 30 years imprisonment" is valid as well: it's a matter of taste, no need to take it personally. dab (𒁳) 20:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: in fact, I tend to agree that if we keep the term, it should be italicized as a non-English technical term, as reclusión perpetua. dab (𒁳) 20:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

text: I disagree about the minimum 30 years part. It's carries a different connotation. While I don't know for sure, I would guess it's possible to be given a minimum 30 years imprisonment without being given reclusión perpetua in the Philippines. More importantly perhaps reclusión perpetua is a specific sentence, one of the most serious in Filipino law and not simply being sentenced to prison. Indeed it's more accurate IMHO to call it a 40 year sentence. Nil Einne 07:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Do consider though that it appears to be part of the English language in the Philippines. Itacilising it will probably be okay though. It's done here  for example. Nil Einne 08:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

text:  No insult nor sarcasm was intended. --PFHLai 23:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  EN-Wikipedia 

message: please note a valid point. --143.239.215.33 12:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Go to WP:ERRORS. --74.14.21.183 17:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  British vs. American English  

message: Do you think this should be added? Simply south 11:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This topic has already been proposed on WP:ITN/C, on September 18. You are more than welcome to join that discussion. AecisBrievenbus 11:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

text: It's been added now. • Lawrence Cohen 21:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible meteorite 

message: In the event that this is to be re-added, there are various things on the main page to consider first. Also I want to raise a new issue. The 3 million figure appears to be the extreme high end. Pol Pot and The Killing Fields suggest around 1.6 or no more then 2.3 million would as averages would be better. While we do say 'up to' IMHO it's a bit sensationalistic for us to use figures that are the extreme high end and supported by only one source Nil Einne 11:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nuon Chea 

message: It appears on the news entry of the Cần Thơ Bridge collapsing, that there are redirects that need to be avoided:
*Cần Thơ Bridge --> Can Tho Bridge
*Collapse of the Can Tho Bridge --> Collapse of Can Tho Bridge — Moe ε 17:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see Wikipedia:Redirect#Do not change links to redirects that are not broken. --199.71.174.100 23:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request

message: Is Chess really that important? - Boochan 08:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chess 

message: I hope nobody will infer any lack of respect to the deceased photographer and his family, but the relevant issue is the violent response to the peaceful protests, and the fact that protesters are being killed.  If this were not the case, and of importance, then this brave photo-journalist would presumably not have been in a position to become a victim.  As the entry currently reads, it gives the impression that the death of a photographer (who did not have a Wiki entry until his death, and thus cannot be claimed as a well known personality) from a wealthy country is more noteworthy than the deaths and grounds for protest of many Burmese.  Kevin McE 09:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: His death is relevant in the sense that it has changed the position of the international community (Japan in particular) from concerned onlookers to actively involved. Other than that, I agree with you. The big news is the protests, not the death of any single person present at the protests. AecisBrievenbus 12:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kenji Nagai and the Burmese protests 

message: How in God's name does a story about a Volcano killing 4 people stay on the main page for 24 hours and yet the mass executions by both Blackwater guards and of Buddhist Monks get no attention?
Get a clue. Real things are happening on the planet.Yeago 17:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The protests in Burma were on the Main Page for days (that version is from Sept 25). It looks like it was just removed yesterday or earlier today. There is already an article about the Blackwater shootings, you can feel free to suggest it to be on the main page. Since when is a deadly volcano eruption not news? (Though the point of the In the News section is not to report the news, but to tell about current events affecting Wikipedia articles) Wikinews reports the news. Mr.Z-man 17:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeago, please note that ITN is not a news service. "Real things happening on the planet" may not appear on ITN if the relevant wikiarticles are not well updated.  If you think the Burmese news should go back on ITN, please check that the related articles (e.g. 2007 Burmese anti-government protests) have been expanded since the line left ITN, and post another headline on WP:ITN/C. Thanks. --PFHLai 23:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Current in the news 

message: I have a question about our coverage of the Nobel Prizes. In a worst case scenario, we could have all six Nobel Prizes on ITN, which would likely mean 100% of ITN would be dedicated to the Nobel Prizes. What could we do to prevent that? Should we merge all prizes into one? For instance:
:"X and X win the 2007 Nobel Prize in Y for Z. The Nobel Prize in V goes to W and W. The Fooian Uist T gets the Nobel Prize in U for S."
Or should we listify it? For instance:
:"The winners of the 2007 Nobel Prizes are announced in Oslo and Stockholm:
:*A: U
:*B: V and V
:*C: W and W
:*D: X
:*E: Y, Y and Y
:*F: Z and Z"
Or should we replace one with the other, as we have done earlier this year with the UEFA Cup and the Champions League? Or are the announcement dates so far apart that it's not an issue in the first place? AecisBrievenbus 22:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I recall, there were never more than two announcements, maybe 3, on ITN at the same time.  A pro-active stance towards getting candidates into the template would probably suffice to keep the spacing tolerable. - BanyanTree 00:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The announcements will be happening just about everyday now, so it will be an issue. -- tariqabjotu 03:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We've got two Nobel Prizes on ITN atm, Physiology/Medicine and Physics. According to the schedule released by the website of the Nobel Prizes, we've got one announcement coming up today, Chemistry. Literature is scheduled for Thursday, Peace for Friday and Economics for Monday. So like Tariqabjotu, I would say that this is indeed an issue. AecisBrievenbus 07:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's clear that we are not going to have a 100% Nobel template and, if the rate of updates hold, every other item will on average be non-Nobel.  So that would be 2-3 for the normal 5-6 item template over the course of the next week.  The question is if this is enough of an issue to warrant reorganizing the template.  For me, the answer is no: individual Nobel Prizes are inherently ITN-worthy and it is insanely difficult to find ITN hooks for most science-related topics, space vehicle launches notwithstanding, so I'm not unhappy with a feast after a year-long famine.  That said, I am an acknowledged ITN update liberal. - BanyanTree 08:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although Aecis' list looks nice, BanyanTree has a point. I don't know what to say. I was one to merge all of the nomination blurbs into one grand blurb, however this should be done in such a manner so as not to dilute the importance of the individual prizes and the Nobel Prize as a whole. --Ouro (blah blah) 18:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it's an issue anymore: we've only got two Nobel Prizes left: Peace and Economics. Peace will push Von Wernich off and Economics will push the Battle of Mir Ali off. Then we've got parliamentary elections in Gibraltar and Togo that might be included, which would push Ertl off ITN. So we will probably have at most three items about the Noble Prizes (Lessing and the two remaining Prizes) in a 6 to 7 item ITN. AecisBrievenbus 23:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regarding the Nobel Prizes 

message: "describing the deaths of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide" -- I am sure we can phrase this better. I understand "describing the Armenians genocide as genocide" was avoided (although, why not be plain...) but "deaths of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" is clearly too vague. What this is about are well-defined "1915-1917 killings of Armenians under the Young Turks government of the failing Ottoman Empire", not just deaths of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire in general. --dab (𒁳) 21:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have noted the mainpage posting at Turkish-American relations, where there is not yet mention of this. Chris 04:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Armenians/Turkish-American relations

message: Any objections to the replacement of :Image:Al Gore, Vice President of the United States, official portrait 1994.jpg with :Image:AlGoreGlobalWarmingTalk.jpg, which more accurately reflects how Gore currently looks (it strikes me as a bit odd to depict a living person of whom several recent free images are available with a thirteen-year-old portrait) and has the added, although almost entirely insignificant, benefit of demonstrating Gore as he presents his global warming slideshow (the image most associated with his global warming work is, I'd say, his standing at the front of a room or on stage)?  Joe 17:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The picture of Gore at the global warming talk was the one I originally proposed for the item, but other folks thought he looked too sad in that picture.  See WP:ITN/C#October 12 for the discussion.  There was a third photo used initially in ITN, but apparently it wasn't licensed correctly and has been deleted. Personally, I think that the "sad" photo from the global warming talk is more appropriate than the VP portrait, but others may disagree. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I happened upon that thread just after posting here; I didn't mean to duplicate the discussion and will follow up at ITN/C. Joe 23:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Al Gore]] image

message: The entry as it stood was abysmal, I have to say. "Forced from their homes" implies it's happening now, not projected to happen over the next dozen years; the "environmental catastrophe" given as the cause is something considered likely to happen if action isn't taken - it isn't the reason for the movement, which is an attempt to prevent this catastrophe.
Please try to avoid oversensationalising things. It's a story, yes, but it isn't "four million people evacuated as a dam bursts", which is what it implied. Shimgray | talk | 00:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The IP is right. I have corrected the headline. Thanks, Nishkid64 (talk) 05:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for fixing so quickly. --74.13.129.52 06:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Y'know, I agree.  Changed.  Thanks, BanyanTree 05:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three Gorges 

message: This kind of phrasing suggests that the "need" is merely a natural fact, rather than a political decision and a consequence of political decisions.
For neutrality, please consider:  The Chinese government announces that an additional four million people will be relocated away from areas surrounding the Three Gorges Dam.
Or, better yet:  The Chinese government announces that it will relocate an additional four million people away from areas surrounding the Three Gorges Dam. This attributes responsibility for an action to a specific party, rather than leaving it vague and weaselly. --FOo 03:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Y'know, I agree.  Changed.  Thanks, BanyanTree 05:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Need to be"? 

message: One of the headlines now reads: 
*Scandinavian Airlines permanently discontinue services based on the use of its Dash 8 Q400 Turboprop after a series of crash landings, the latest in Copenhagen.
To clarify it, it should read:
*Scandinavian Airlines permanently discontinues services of its Dash 8 Q400 Turboprop after a series of crash landings, the latest in Copenhagen.
The change is the conjugation of "discontinue" (which may be correct already, if so, please disregard that part) and the removal of the words "based on the use," which implies that the whole of the fleet, every aircraft owned by the company, and not just this one type of plane, have been grounded. 
Thanks for listening.
—ScouterSig 16:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done already, thanks. -- lucasbfr talk 14:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Syntax fix needed 

message: Jacoplane's version looks balanced to me. Picaroon (t) 01:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length 

message: According to OED (in sense 24 of the verb), Of an employee: To refuse to continue work; esp. of a body of employees, to cease working by agreement among themselves or by order of their society or union. So we don't need to go on about "going on." Potatoswatter 06:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  striking! 

message: Unless, someone objects, I would like to put the recent Afghan suicide bombings at a factory today as there were at least 80 perhaps even over 100 deaths.--JForget  15:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please de-stub quickly. Thanks. --PFHLai 16:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah probably I've been a bit too quick but now it is no longer a stub and we will probably hear from the international community soon as far as reactions is concern. Also because of the many conflicting info about the death toll, I've revised it to at least 35 based on lowest numbers per the reliable sources so far.--JForget  19:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Afghan bombing

message: States of emergency are really more the realm of natural disasters and the like, what Musharraf really did is he declared martial law, which is a much bigger deal. A better news blurb would be:
* President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan suspends the country's constitution and declares martial law. --Benplowman 02:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Saying Musharraf declared a "State of Emergency" is misleading

message: *Is there any precedent for posting strike actions on ITN? I feel there should at least be a discussion on this particular one. Hammer Raccoon 20:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like a good item to me. Johntex\talk 01:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't believe there is precedent although I'm not sure. However while at first found the item dubious, on further consideration and reading the article the item seems fine to me. For better or worse, American television has great influence throughout the world. This strike presuming it lasts say at least 10-12 weeks is likely to have a great influence on the television scheduling and also may have great economic effetcs. Already daily shows are off air Nil Einne 05:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, I agree this has international significance. It is possible, though, that this all blows over in a week and as such doesn't really affect anything all that much. I await being proved wholeheartedly wrong... Hammer Raccoon 16:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Strike

message: Any objections to changing the guidelines to 3-7 items, as it seems that ITN is however many bullets are needed to balance TFA? --Stephen 21:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd rather not have old, stale news hanging around for too long.  It's fine as is.  What we need is DYK is stick to their guidelines and not make the leftside of MainPage too elongated with more than 8 items.  Both ITN & DYK are edited daily and should easily adjust to TFAs of various lengths for a balanced MainPage. --PFHLai 18:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is news to me.  I've observed ITN mirroring the TFA length for internal column symmetry, which is why ITN is cut down to a bare minimum when we get those rare five sentence-long TFAs.  From this point of view, ITN items get stale 'cause Raul isn't merciless enough in FA summaries. ;) I would actually be OK with changing the guidelines to state "ITN comprises, at maximum, enough items to balance out the TFA blurb to the left", or something like that.  - BanyanTree 02:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Another option of course is to include wordier hooks, which will take up more space. - BanyanTree 02:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Let's give TFA a word limit. --74.14.16.199 05:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 3-5 is now 3-7?

message: Its a toy recall, one of many that happen weekly.  I don't quite see the necessity of listing it.  --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 10:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aqua Dots 

message: I just completed a stub on Ventarron, which is news for November 11, 2007. Perhaps it would be worthy to include it as a headline. --Thus Spake Anittas 05:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Try WP:ITN/C. --74.14.16.199 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ventarron 

message: I added 3rd level headings to the Nov 15 section, as a test. The readability of ITN is a bit difficult, as conversations generally ramble across and all over each other from multiple topics. • Lawrence Cohen 17:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  3rd level headings 

message: Keep "The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change releases its fourth report on climate change, indicating that Earth and humanity are now in permanent danger due to global warming. " in the headlines as long as possbile. I believe that people should become aware of it, even though in say several weeks it won't be news anymore. Nergaal (talk) 06:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whats the normal process/rule for that? Arguably, this is the biggest news in decades. • Lawrence Cohen 06:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with the sentiment, but unfortunately unless there are further developments with regards to that story/report in particular we are unable to do so.  Deciding that this is so important we are going to change policy would be POV, especially given the (again, I disagree with this) "controversial nature" of the report and the issue.  Grant.alpaugh (talk) 06:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Generally speaking, this occurs only when (English-language) media focuses entirely on one event.  Both 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and Funeral of Pope John Paul II ended up being "stickied" at the top of ITN for a period of time.  I vaguely recall that the first London tube bombings were as well, but don't quote me on that.  As with almost everything on Wikipedia, such things are decided through social interaction as updating users decide to add items under the "stickied" item and revert other users who cycle it down.  This item appears to be an unlikely candidate for "sticky-ing", simply because I doubt there's are enough admins who both edit ITN and feel strongly enough to fight over the item's location and thus create a temporary consensus to ignore normal template procedure, especially since the hint of wheel warring is enough for emergency desysopping these days.  Though I've been proved wrong before...  - BanyanTree 07:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: IPCC

message: It hasn't sunk yet, and it might not if they can pump fast enough.  news report updated an hour ago. Jackaranga (talk) 21:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever if you leave it long enough it might well sink... Jackaranga (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the lack of interest. Jackaranga (talk) 16:16, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The boat that hit an iceberg 

message: ABC's calling it, 9's calling it, Julia Gillard's claiming it... ...so what's Wikipedia standard protocol for calling an election victory?  Kelvinc (talk) 10:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We generally prefer to wait for official results, but when supported by multiple tertiary sources and the incumbent leader and his likely replacement as (the new opposition) leader concede defeat and the other partie's leader makes a speech considering himself the new PM that's sufficient. Particularly when the official results won't be known for several ?weeks. Nil Einne (talk) 12:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarless we wait. Labour could still technicaly lose. We record the result not what everything thinks will be the result.Geni 14:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem with your suggestion is that the new Labour government is already in the process of forming the new government. If we were to wait for the official final results as you suggest then by the time we post, the new government would already have been more or less formed probably just waiting to take office and perhaps more importantly, everyone else would not care about the Australian elections anymore. I'm normally all for waiting for official and final stuff but there comes a time when it can be taken to far. When it means we are waiting weeks to annouce something which holds interest for days, it usually doesn't make much sense. The simple fact is, if all the tertiary sources etc turn out to be wrong then this is a much bigger story then anything else and there is nothing wrong with us mentioning the new story (provided the other criteria are met obviously) Nil Einne (talk) 15:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Australian federal election, 2007]]