Talk:Crop circle/Archive 1

message: The article seems to dismiss the entire phonomenon as a hoax. While some crop circles most certainly are created by hoaxes, this doesn't seem to the the case with all formations. 
Some of the formations are much too complex (one had 104 cirles arranged in a complex pattern). It would need a team of dozens of people working in close coordination to achieve it within a single night. Other complex formations have appeared just next to busy highways. It would be virtually impossible for a team to create it without being detected.
I'm no easy believer in such phonomenon, but this one really needs more analysis. Anyone who has spent some time in studying this can say that it's not a hoax. - muvu
Exactly. IOf one really studies everything out there, crop circles are inexplicable. The list below is actually a very good summary of what has been found. There is a authentic scientific investigation going on by BLT research. There are verifiable observations of stuff that could not possible be made by the human hand such as crystalization of clays in the soil within a circle. That cannot be faked by any means. Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...Anyone?... anyone?... anyone?...
Usually they are called "Balls of Light" or BoL's. From the various descriptions over the years they appear to be plasma balls. The video of a ball of light hovering over a circle and then zooming over to an approaching farmer, mentioned below, on a tractor leaves out the part where as the BoL passes over the farmer, he turns his head to watch it go by...Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

text: "One theory is that crop circles are created by flying saucers landing in a farmer's field and flattending(sic) a neat circle of the crop -- however the increasing complexity of formations makes this theory less likely. "
..yeah 'cos extra-terrestrials who have can fly thousands of light years from other planets, would find it really hard to draw geometric patterns other than circles. If crop circles were only circular it would be much more likely that aliens created them. Mintguy 13:44, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

text: What would be the advantage to aliens of having such oddly shaped ships? r3m0t 20:14, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: I think it's missing a "they are" after "because". It's probably just your average hard-core atheist's POV. --Ssokolow 07:15, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Hoax discussion

message: Does anyone have a good, public domain image of a crop circle that could be displayed as part of this article? - Bevo 21:29, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: 'Archaeological investigations were soon instigated" My bad. Fix him up good now. --Wetman 07:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  a good PD image of a crop circle? 

message: Crop circles go back at least to the 1920s, if not beyond (earliest report so far discovered date back to 1590).
: So what?  People have had boards and rope for millennia.
::SSo what does that mean?Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: They occur worldwide (e.g. 1997; USA, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Nether lands, Belgium, UK).
: Again, so what?  People see them on TV, see the woo-woos getting all excited about it, and decide to do the gag themselves. 
So what does that mean?Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think it means that people see them on TV, see the woo-woos getting all excited about it, and decide to do the gag themselves. *shrug* --Mal 00:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I applaud your masterful use of reiterative logic. --Darkfred Talk to me 18:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Distribution 

message: At least a dozen people have witnessed formations occurring in front of them. In one case — Vivien & Gary Tomlinson — this was accompanied by an extremely loud noise like “pan—pipes”, which actually perforated Vivien s eardrums.
: Twelve people, out of over six thousand million, have claimed to have seen these "formations"? All the while, someone was playing pan pipes? Freaky! --Mal 01:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have seen talking Bananas --84.13.246.206 16:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eye/ear Witnesses 

message: Some plants in crop formations have been found covered with a thin layer of carbon. 
Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel
: There was a UK documentary which follow a team of crop circle creators. They mentioned that they often added charcoal and sulfer dust afterwards just to confuse the paranormal "scientists". --Darkfred Talk to me 21:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carbon Blackening 

message: Seeds from within a crop formation show marked differences in germination to that of control samples. The germination rate is either vastly increased, or slow and inconsistent, or even refuses to germinate at all.  
Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel
: Because the seeds originated from different crops and thus were created with different amounts of water and nutrients a test of this kind would be scientifically impossible. Germination is highly dependant on local weather and crop conditions. Even between bags of seed and adjacent plants there is huge varience. --Darkfred Talk to me 21:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germination Changes 

message: Some stalks are pulled into the flow from beyond the perimeter stalks - this does not happen when the formation is made with boards or rollers. 
And sometimes standing stalks are found with flattened stalks all around.
: lol these guys are funny! I'm starting to respect crop circle makers more and more! --Mal 01:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perimeter Stalks 

message: Early UK formations are often in oilseed rape, in which the stems are found to be bent right over. This is an impossible effect to hoax, since rape stems are very brittle. Some samples taken from formations continue bending into a 360 degree curl. 
Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel
: Done by draggin a soft tarp, one person at each end, weighted at the end with a light board. One person stands still the other moves to form the circle.--Darkfred Talk to me 21:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bent Rape Stems 

message: 2 separate groups of experiments have been performed showing that clocks inside formations lose or gain time compared to those outside.
This could be due to an extreme electromagnetic field contained inside these formations.
One researcher ws watching a tractor approach, he turned around and when he turned back it was several minutes closer. Time warp is often discussed.Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't even have to bother with this one. :)  --Darkfred Talk to me 21:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time Dilation 

message: Magnetic effects can be seen in some formations using a compass, which can deviate several degrees from true North. If a magnet is dragged round the formation, there will sometimes be iron particles found sticking to it. Also, minute, partially melted particles of meteoritic magnetite have been found in a centrifugally distributed pattern. 
Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel
: Magnetic compasses don't point to true north! They always deviate by a few degrees and instead point to magnetic north. (although this varies even depending on the local magnetic field). Second point, iron filings, even if not left by the hoaxers to confuse you have an obvious reason for being there. Combine blades have been used over this spot of terrain for 40 years at least. --Darkfred Talk to me 21:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magnetic Anomalies 

message: Many electronic gadgets have been found to fail inside crop formations, including cameras, video equipment, power-packs, and tape recorders. They often function perfectly just outside the formation. Several TV crews have picked up severe interference. Mobile phones, if the batteries work, often won’t transmit or receive in the formation. Combine harvesters have also broken down several times while harvesting formations.
: Many electronic gadgets have been found to fail outside crop formations, including cameras, video equipment, power-packs, and tape recorders. They often function perfectly just inside the formation. Several TV crews have picked up severe interference. Mobile phones, if the batteries work, often won’t transmit or receive in the formation. Combine harvesters have also broken down several times while harvesting. --Mal 01:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Electro/mechanical Failures 

message: Lucy Pringle has announced the results of a test in which the melatonin levels in 2 subjects had been found to rise significantly after visiting a crop formation. Melatonin is produced in the pineal gland, and has many effects, including pituitary gland output, and thence the hypothalamus, these last 2 in turn, inhibiting gonadal hormone output. This could explain the menstrual effects. Melatonin can also cause elation and REM sleep — the dream states that correspond to theta activity in the brain. There may also be a connection to the magnetic anomalies, since Serena Roney Dougal has found that electro magnetic fields can affect melatonin production.
: Wow you mean standing outside all day looking at crop circles can cause Melatonin changes? Who would have thought that standing outside would affect a hormone which is controlled by sun exposure? --Darkfred Talk to me 21:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Endocrine Effects 

message: Many people have reported seeing balls of light at night, over crop fields in which new formations are discovered the following day. Several videos have been filmed of balls of light in crop formations, apart from the infamous Oliver’s Castle footage. Even crop-circle hoaxers have admitted encountering ‘flashes of light, pillars of light, and balls of light‘, while out in the crop fields.
But then again, they are "hoaxers".
: But they never went out to investigate? Perhaps to chase off the college students who were ruining their crops? Too deathly afraid of these balls of like (flashlight beams)? --Darkfred Talk to me 21:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balls Of Light 

message: Lucy Pringle reports having  taken many people with arthritis and rheumatism into the formations, who, she suggests, have subsequently recovered. A woman who had Parkinson’s disease stopped shaking for 24 hours, and one deaf person  permanently recovered their hearing.
: Many people with arthritis and rheumatism (and other ailments) report having improvments to their health or condition following having drunk water from a particular source, having visited a holy shrine and various other things. --Mal 01:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miracle Cures 

message: In the 1991-93, in Canada, (in 2 separate events), 2 porcupines were found dead in crop formations. One was blackened and almost disintegrated. The other was squashed flat. (links to dead porcupines and decapitated dogs)
: lol ok .. leaving a single blade of a crop standing is one thing.. killing animals is a bit cruel tbh! I wonder what caused these mysterious deaths, menstrual bleeding and, conversely, miracle cures. It doesn't seem to be very consistant, does it? Perhaps its the effect of the aliens' time machines or warp drive signatures left behind by their visits.
: I wonder if they get sick/miraculously cured on board their spaceships. --Mal 01:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Perhaps the "timewarp" cause the poor porcupine to perish of old age? But really I doubt the hoaxers killed them, prolly just picked them up off the side of the road on the way to the crop. --Darkfred Talk to me 21:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Porcupines And Decapitated Dogs 

message: Horses have been observed to refuse to go into a crop formation, even while being whipped  by a humiliated farmer's wife. Dogs often bark madly the night of a formations arrival. One farmer s dog stopped 15 metres from a fresh formation and howled when its owner went in. On the 2nd day it went down to 10m, on the 3rd day, 5m, and on the 4th day, the dog entered the formation.
* Horses have been observed to refuse to go to location x, even while being whipped by a humiliated farmer's wife.
* Dogs often bark madly. --Mal 01:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scared Horses & Howling Dogs 

message: According to Glenn Broughton and Steve Page, who have continued research started by Brian Grist., 90% of formations in Southern England lie on aquifers (water-carrying rocks — mainly chalk, limestone and greensand).
: Does that 90% include all the known and verified man-made patterns? (as if there are any other type lol!) --Mal 01:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh hey - perhaps the people that make the crop circles are under alien influence. --Mal 01:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

text: 99% of england is positioned over limestone and chalk aquifers, I am surprised the number was only 90%. You can dig down 5 feet in most of Southern England and hit water. --Darkfred Talk to me 21:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Underground Water 

message: The crop in a genuine formation is often found to be in layers, with each layer swirled in a different direction. Some of the smaller, outlying circles are often found swirled into cones with a hollow in the centre — the stems are woven together like corn dollies. Bundling is another effect, where the crop is twisted into bundles as it is laid down, with the leaves coiling round groups of 4 or 5 stems. 
Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel
: I didn't realise there were disingenuous formations!
: They have certainly developed the art extremely well since it was started back in the 70s. --Mal 01:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intricate Lay 

message: The Grasdorf formation in Germany 1992, registered a radiation level 76% above the safe legal limit in German work-places; it dropped back to a lower reading later, which is normally impossible - radiation levels usually stay constant. Michael Hesemann suggested that the Geiger-counter may have been picking up “a hitherto unknown energy”.
Citations available at BLT Research Tommy Mandel
: What are the radiation levels in the other ninety million crop circle formations..?
: Michael Hesemann's equipment may have been acting up.. or he's just seeking his 15 minutes perhaps. --Mal 01:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radiation Anomalies 

message: A 5 to 5.2 KHZ buzzing, or “trilling” sound has been heard and recorded in several formations. It was detected by a BBC sound engineer, and recorded on his tape, just before his camera broke down. Although it has been said to be identical to the call of the Grasshopper Warbler, the BBC tape has been analyzed by a NASA specialist, who said it is NOT birdsong. What is more, in the famous Billy Meier UFO case, in 1975—76, Meier had recorded a 5.2 KHZ buzz.
: Birds in a corn field? My God call the government! --Darkfred Talk to me 21:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trilling Noise 

message: The “Julia Set”, a fractal pattern of 151 circles that appeared at Stonehenge in July 1996 appeared in broad daylight, between 5.30 p.m. and 6.15 p.m., according to a pilot who flew over the area, and back again 45 minutes later. Two other witnesses — a farm worker, and a security guard at Stonehenge confirmed that there was definitely nothing there earlier in the day.
: And despite the fact that a docuemntary of the Hoaxers was shown on BBC the next month people still insist that it was real, it baffles the mind. --Darkfred Talk to me 21:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rapid Daylight Appearance 

message: I removed the NPOV tag and replaced it with a cleanup tag. The article seems to be reasonably neutral. Remaining POV statements are mostly isolated and need to be fixed during cleanup. IMO, this is what still needs to be done to clean the article up:
* Crop the external links a lot to fall in line with Wikipedia:External Links
* Split-up the Conclusions section and merge in to other (or new) sections
* Copyedit the whole article with a emphasis on NPOV and prose. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 16:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Cleanup 

message: The US has these things, even appearing in snow and ice.
In the US, people tresspassing on other's property will likely end up shot and killed,especially in Texas,LA.,AR.,certain other states, yet there are these glyphs. If the owner is "merciful", the offender(s) will end up in prison for a wide variety of charges, if the property owner is not "merciful", the offender(s) is shot and killed. I used to live in some of these places.Martial Law 04:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: US has them, people HERE in the US are...

message: Well, here there are mentions of some being a hoax some not being a hoax, in my opinion they are all hoaxes.
Firstly no one has ever provided a valid theory which proves that this crop signs have been made either naturally or by extraterrestrial influence, leaving theories just pointless theories.
Observations supercede all theories. Tommy Mandel 02:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hoax?? 

message: This article refers to manmade circles as hoaxes, but there is nothing to support the notion that any crop circle has ever been anything but manmade. How then are hoax and hoaxers applicable terms? Crop circles are art akin to graffiti, and the article should reflect that reality. Wpjonathan 21:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is because they were considered to be made supernaturally, and the creators didn't come forth to explain the phenomenon. They were intially hoaxes and/or pranks. AFTER one of the hoaxers revealed himself, it has obviously become an 'art form' or graffiti. Of course, despite this, conspirationalists still contend that most/many/all/some of the crop circles are not man-made... and so the hoaxes continue. --Mal 07:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of 'Hoax' 

message: Want to see a ice circle ? See this link: Ice Circle Martial Law 21:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you BE more incoherent?--Deglr6328 09:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Martial Law?? I don't doubt the law in the US allows trespassers to be shot legally. But this does not prove that they are not hoaxes. If no one finds out you are doing it, you can't be shot? right?  Paddy :-) 20:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As farmers,ranchers,others tend their land, they often do catch intruders, and kill them or let the Sheriffs' Office have them for prosecution, if the owner is so inclined. Martial Law 23:56, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As if legal ranchers and farmers are'nt bad enough about killing intruders, those growing illegal drugs(pot,weed, grass, that sort of thing) will surely kill tresspassers, and have been known to use booby traps on tresspassers. I'm a evidence man myself. Martial Law 04:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

text: No, in the US you cannot be shot for trespassing. The shooter would go to jail for the rest of their lives. In only one state Texas are you allowed specifically by law to shoot someone who breaks into your home. To avoid going to jail you still need to prove that you were in danger at the time. We have laws in this country, I don't know where you come from. --Darkfred Talk to me 21:38, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ice Circle / Argument against Hoaxes 

message: No mention of the film Signs on this article? It would be a good addition to the article, showing the importance of these signs for today's society.
I don't know much about this film, and I don't have the time now, but once I get to see the film and I research a bit into it, I will add something to the article, maybe someone can add a bit about it here.  Paddy :-) 00:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Signs 

message: This article looks pretty good, though I'm not particularly familiar with the material. However one section heading caught my eye - "Conclusions". It isn't our job as Wikipedia editors to draw decide which version of the truth is correct. We're just here to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. I suggest that we should refactor the section, which has good material, so that it does not make its own conclusion. That's the job of the reader. -Will Beback 08:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Conclusions" 

message: I'm currently investigating a plant glyph that happened in Louisiana, near Barksdale USAF Base.
This thing was found in a area that is full of woody weeds native to the area. This may not be a hoax, due to the nature of these plants. Of course, I am wondering why there is no plant glyph found in a forest. Trees are just plants, just like any other plant. If one is made in a forest, that should settle this matter. Go to the Coast To Coast AM Gallery. There is a pix on this plant glyph.Broken plants are used to track elusive criminals who may have escaped prison. Martial Law 22:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Investigation

message: How can the NSA tap into what appears to be a alien communications signal ? Do "We" really have that capability ?! Is there something going on here ? Martial Law 23:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NSA Related Topics

message: Hi, I have read the research on crop circles and intend to add my comments to Wikipedia in accordance with Wikilaw. Is there going to be any problem with doing that? I will be citing scientific sources and I will not end with aliens. For example I will discuss this article found at http://www.bltresearch.com/ohio.htm
Tommy Mandel 03:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just examined your source, you should take this to Coast To Coast AM. Did you state that a glyph was created in a forest, bending, yet not damaging trees ? The reason that aliens are assumed in the creation of these things is that UFOs are usually seen in the area, along with animal mutilations, and some of these things are really complex, and some appear to be similar to ancient Egyptian writing or Mayan writing, or what was allegedly found on some of the UFO derbis found at Roswell, New Mexico. In one in case, someone videotaped white lights flying in a field, and a glyph was found in that field. Martial Law 19:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Intent to edit

message: Could someone have a shot at classifying these ? They're a real hotchpotch both in content and style. Thanks!Robma 09:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I gave it a go, though I don't doubt people will have differing views about what should go where; and contributions from other editors would be welcome. I also removed those links that are dead. --BillC 01:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks very much - it's a lot better. Robma 07:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  You're welcome. What people who endlessly add URLs to link farms at the end of articles often don't realise is that the likelihood of someone clicking on the link they just added decreases with each new link. If there are 3 links, people will possibly click on each of them; if there are 53, no-one will bother clicking on any. --BillC 21:10, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links