Talk:Panthera spelaea

message: Herakles fought the Nemean Lion, a giant cave-dwelling Lion.  Surely, this is a memory of the Ice Age Megabeast, the Cave Lion.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.68.244 (talk) 01:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: www.geo.auth.gr/12icbs/proceedings/tsoukala_et_al_2.pdf That publication seems good for clarifying things. It mentions that fossils of leopards of that era,not of cave lions, have been found in the area that could confirm any historic truth behind the myth (also clarifies that lion fossils from Peloponnesos are far too old and belong to P.leo fossilis not spelaea).--Draco ignoramus sophomoricus (talk) 08:26, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

text: It is normally considered a subspecies of lion, with the scientific name of Panthera leo spelaeus (which means "cave lion" in Latin); but it is normally considered a species in its own right, under the name Panthera spelaeus.
What on earth is that supposed to mean? It's normally one, or it's normally the other. Not both, they're exclusive. Please clarify.
eritain 02:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Normally a subspecies or species? 

message: Recent edits have used this term instead of "lions".  Can we have a source for this please?  I've never heard it before, and I'm doubtful that it is a word with an established English usage – even as a scientist myself I'm also doubtful about what it means.  Is it "big cats" generally or just "lions and tigers"?  Couldn't we just use "larger big cats", "lions and tigers", or even the genus name Panthera?  Richard New Forest (talk) 22:04, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It refers to the subfamily Pantherinae and is a standard variant of a subfamily name. I'd think it's an unnecessarily technical term for this article if something like "lions" or "big cats" will do. Ucucha 16:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Panterine"? 

message: When I do a Google Scholar search for "Panthera spelaea" (since 2013) I get 74 hits, while "Panthera leo spelaea" gives 54. (Searching since 2010 gives nearly equal results.) I'm going to add a note to the article to reflect this. WolfmanSF (talk) 03:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: How would you source it? FunkMonk (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Some papers in last years treat spelaea as species, see: SOTNIKOVA, M.; NIKOLSKIY, P.. (2006). Systematic position of the cave lion Panthera spelaea (Goldfuss) based on cranial and dental characters. Quaternary International 142–143: 218–228. DOI:10.1016/j.quaint.2005.03.019; Stuart & Lister, 2011, Marciszak et al., 2014. Burmeister (talk) 14:41, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've noted the same in the latest papers, also this thesis King, Leigha M., "Phylogeny of Panthera, Including P. atrox, Based on Cranialmandibular Characters" (2012). Electronic Theses and Dissertations. Paper 1444. and this paper Sotnikova, Marina M., and Irina V. Foronova. 2014. even use P. fossilis and P. spealea as separate species. I don't know if is still convenient have a separate article for every kind of "cave lion"... --Rextron (talk) 17:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: "Cave" lion is an unnatural grouping though, so I don't know it it would be helpful to merge them all there... FunkMonk (talk) 18:00, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I should say that by "cave lion" I was referring to P. spelaea and P. fossilis group (that could be the same species), not P. atrox.--Rextron (talk) 18:09, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Stuart & Lister (2011) argue for full species status. WolfmanSF (talk) 09:09, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there any sort of consensus? FunkMonk (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Species vs. subspecies 

message: Did anyone notice that another frozen specimen was discovered by the Tirekhtykh River in the Abyysky District of Yakutia? Leo1pard (talk) 15:27, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  2017 discovery: Cave lion or lynx? 

message: The modern lion is yellow-brown, or tawny. This article, which has photographs, says that cave lions might have been grey. Though I do see grey, especially in the first photograph, I can also see yellow or brown in later photographs. Leo1pard (talk) 06:22, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did cave lions have a different colour to the modern lion? 

message: I posted something similair to this in the Cave Bear article.
Fossils are preserved better in caves, so assuming that an animal whose fossils were found in a cave lived mostly in caves is inaccurate. Our fossils might be found only in caves in 10,000 years.
The Cave Lion probably mostly did not live in caves.
:: Don't you think that during glaciation eras individuals and species chosing the more stable enviroment of caves as a "nest" would be favoured by natural selection? I do think that bears' habits that are what is left of glaciation-era mega-predators pretty much reflect that.--Draco ignoramus sophomoricus (talk) 11:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: But there are no evidence of 'cave' lions 'nests' in caves anywhere, unlike scimitar cats, for example. 'Cave' lions found in caves were universally dragged there once dead by cave hyenas, died hunting cave bears or simply fell down a crevasse and starved to death while looking for a way out.--Menah the Great (talk) 00:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Realism in article 

message: This is the original quote; at it don’t change since 2007:
Dec 21, 2009:
This subspecies was one of the largest lions. An adult male, which was found in 1985 near Siegsdorf (Germany), had a shoulder height of around 1.2 m (4 ft) and a body length of 2.1 m (7 ft) without tail. This is similar to the size of a very large modern lion. The size of this male has been exceeded by other specimens of this subspecies. Therefore this cat may have been around 5-10% bigger than modern lions, but it didn't reach the measures of the earlier cave lion subspecies Panthera leo fossilis or those of the huge American lion (Panthera leo atrox).
June 28, 2009:
This subspecies was one of the largest lions. An adult male, which was found in 1985 near Siegsdorf (Germany), had a shoulder height of around 1.2 m (4 ft) and a body length of 2.1 m (7 ft) without tail. This is similar to the size of a very large modern lion. The size of this male has been exceeded by other specimens of this subspecies. Therefore this cat may have been around 5-10 % bigger than modern lions, but it didn´t reach the measures of the earlier cave lion subspecies Panthera leo fossilis or those of the huge American lion (Panthera leo atrox).
Jun 30, 2007:
One adult male, found in 1985 near Siegsdorf (Germany), had a shoulder height of around 1.2 m and a body length of 2.1 m, about the same size as a large lion, although some were 5-10 % bigger than modern lions.
Finally, Dr Bruce Patterson, in his book “The lions of Tsavo: exploring the legacy of Africa’s notorious man-eaters” stated that “P. leo spelaea, it was only 8-10 percent larger than that of modern lions” (See Page 105).
So, where it came this figure of 2.8 m. for this particular specimen? Schultz & Lein (1974) estimated a head-body length of 1.4-2.7 m, probably over the curves. However, more accurate comparisons, like that of Dr Patterson, show that these estimations were exaggerated. --AmbaDarla (talk) 00:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the specimen of Siegsdorf, Germany: 

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thread_title: File:Lions, Chauvet cave.JPG Nominated for Deletion

message: The following discusses range, not the habitat, which are different things.
:Cave lions were widespread in parts of Europe, Asia and northwestern North America, from Great Britain, Germany and Spain [13] all the way across the Bering Strait to the Yukon Territory, and from Siberia to Turkistan.
: - Kortoso (talk) 18:42, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  Broke the text into two sections. Kortoso (talk) 18:02, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Range not habitat 

message: Err, "Löwenmensch" just means "lion man" in German. It's not a place name or anything like that. Kortoso (talk) 17:45, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Löwenmensch  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Leo1pard (talk) 13:50, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page views 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Though it is common to use images of skeletons, prehistoric people did us a favor by depicting these animals in their caves, so it would be as close as we could get to having a photograph of a cave lion, unless someone uploads at least one image of the Siberian cubs Uyan and Dina, so I did this, like I would for articles on modern animals. Leo1pard (talk) 16:11, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure why we needed two pictures in the taxobox, though. And the "restructuring" of the article layout was a complete mess. FunkMonk (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  How was it a mess? Leo1pard (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a well-defined layout precedence in featured articles about mammals (extinct as well as extant) that should be followed, both when it comes to the order and naming of sections. It should not be ignored for no good reason. FunkMonk (talk) 01:42, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  And what has that got to do with shifting the cave image back from the taxobox, may I ask? Even other taxoboxes can be fairly detailed. Leo1pard (talk) 08:33, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It has to do with your question of why I say restructuring the article's layout was a mess. As for the image, it only clutters the taxobox. Double taxobox images can be ok to show sexual dimorphism, but not really much else. FunkMonk (talk) 15:32, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why I kept the cave art on top of the skeleton's diagram 

message: Please see this. Leo1pard (talk) 10:00, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientific names 

message: Early Pleistocene origin and extensive intra-species diversity of the extinct cave lion Scientific Reports Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  New paper 

message: The Holocene epoch starts at about 11,650 years from the present, so I'm not sure that the cave/steppe lion should say that they died in the Holocene. Their extinction was a about a millenium away but still not in the Holocene.--Mjmannella (talk) 14:01, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Holocene Noting