Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 5

message: Who should we have in August? Some candidates: Gluck, Offenbach, Rossini, Richard Strauss and Verdi. Any preferences? (If I am allowed a vote myself it will be for Gluck - not well-served at the moment.)
BTW Fireplace has done a terrific job putting up stubs for all the Donizetti operas. All the basic facts are there and the articles are ready for those who have seen the operas (or have recordings) to fill out the pages. - Kleinzach 14:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gluck sounds o.k to me. Moreschi 14:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And to me.  I'll be seeing Gluck's Armide later this month.  Also this month, I'll write up further some of the Donizettis that I've seen.  --GuillaumeTell 21:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good. Gluck it is then. - Kleinzach 23:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Composer of the month for August?

message: I’d like to note some ‘false friends’ mistranslations I’ve been finding recently:
1. Melodramma as “melodramatic opera”: the Italian word Melodramma means opera, so a ‘‘melodramma tragico’’ just means a tragic opera. Melodrama (with two ‘m’s) has two meanings. The commonly-understood meaning (explained in the Wikipedia article) but also a technique of using the spoken voice to heighten the drama, is used by Beethoven in Fidelio and Weber in Der Freischütz.
2. Tragedia lirica as “lyrical tragedy”: it simply means tragic opera.
3. Opéra comique as “comic opera”: opéra comique is a genre that is often far from comic e.g. Carmen. It should remain in French.
Actually a lot of trouble can be avoided by not translating! If it is left alone it will be correct! Hope this is helpful. Best. - Kleinzach 11:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cool, thanks.  I've been listing genre like this: {title} is a [[{genre}]], or opera, in {n} acts by [[{composer}]]].  But if there's a better standard, I'll switch it in.Fireplace 21:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You've been doing a great job - I know the tables in particular take a lot of time to do. The formula you are using is fine IMO. (The genres will make more sense when we have more articles about them.) - Kleinzach 23:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally would vote for the genres to be shown exactly as the librettist and/or composer intended (in the language that was employed by them) - which, I think, is what you're suggesting here - and those can then be a much better basis for a Wikipedia corpus of genres than what we have at present. --GuillaumeTell 23:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I am suggesting that, sorry if it wasn't clearer. Actually we also need to look at opera terminology, it's not just genres which are involved here.  - Kleinzach 00:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mistranslations/'False friends'

message: On a separate note, does anyone else have an opinion to proffer about my proposal for a good articles section to be created just above the featured articles section on the main project page? So far we have one "aye" and one "nay" (all reasons detailed above). Moreschi 18:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we should include good articles. I have no opinion on the categories, although Moreschi's suggestion makes sense to me. Mak (talk) 18:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Good articles (see also above)

message: Apologies for the intrusion, I just figure this is the most direct route to getting some good advice. Kleinzach (who I see is a member here) posted :Category:Impressionistic operas for deletion at WP:CFD here. I'm active at CFD, but I don't know... well, much of anything about the subject matter, so I was hoping some of you might have something to add to the discussion. The most important question is probably: how many operas could be categorized this way? In other words, is the article empty because the articles haven't been written, or because there really isn't much to say about it? Thanks for your time, wish you all well in your continued efforts. Luna Santin 09:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. I think deletion is good here because it's a very vague category (Debussy often thought of as impressionist, but he himself rejected the label, apparently), and secondly because there isn't too much to say. Pelléas et Mélisande could possibly go into this category, but that's about it. Did Ravel, the other composer associated with musical impressionism in the popular mind, ever write an opera? Not to my knowledge. A one-entry dubious category probably isn't very useful. Moreschi 10:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: L'Enfant et les Sortilèges; but I agree. Septentrionalis 17:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

text: It's worth noting that Pelléas is actually a symbolist drama. La Mer could be called impressionistic but it's not an opera! (Ravel did write a couple of short operas, but neither could be called impressionistic.) - Kleinzach 11:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! You guys know your stuff very well. Luna Santin 19:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't deserve that; stupid of me to forget  L'heure Espagnole (though I hadn't heard of the other one), but the category should still be deleted. Moreschi 21:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Impressionistic operas? 

message: There is a category Operas. It has sub-categories for:
* :Category:Operas by composer
* :Category:Operas by genre
* :Category:Operas by language
Many (but not all) operas with their own Wikipedia articles are categorized in :Category:Opera. Usually, they are also categorized in the appropriate composer, genre, and language sub-categories, although the pages are far from consistent about it.
According to WP:CG, an article should not normally be in both a category and that category's parent. Yet, in various spot-checks, I have seen many opera articles that are in both :Category:Operas and the relevant sub-category of "Operas by <so-and-so>". Same story for the language and genre sub-categories.
Is this an error, or was there a Project Opera policy decision to put all operas in :Category:Operas as well as all relevant sub-categories? Marc Shepherd 22:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind....I found the answer at Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Categories. Marc Shepherd 03:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Greetings from Tokyo. I don't have a wonderful connection but I hope this gets through. We decided a few months ago to list all the individual opera articles in :Category:Operas in order to obtain a single complete listing which apparently was not possible using the three sub-cats. Does it any harm? Perhaps there is another better solution? It's worth bearing in mind that there are about 500 articles. - Kleinzach 12:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it got through. I've never been to Japan; hope you enjoy the trip. I don't see that there's a problem with the current system of categories. On a separate note, does anyone have any ideas about the disambig problems I detailed above? Cheers, Moreschi 13:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I somewhat suspected that that was the rationale, and I agree with it. As far as I've been able to ascertain, there is no better solution. Marc Shepherd 15:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opera categories