Talk:Tonypandy riots

message: Churchill broke a rule that had been established in 1688 and still holds today: that troops are never ever used in internal disputes on the British mainland.
I don't think the claim about troops firing is accurate.  It just muddles the issue, which was that he broke existing norms.
--GwydionM 18:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

message: I question the edit of MacAuslan(Talk)   here which gives us  Until the summer of 1911, riots known collectively (though less accurately) as Tonypandy riots involving strikes in mines, docks and on the railways continues to occur. This included the deaths of two rioters at Llanelli: "When rioters tried to prevent the movement of a train at Llanelli, troops opened fire and two of the rioters were shot dead".(With citation.) Llanelli is a long way from Tonypandy, in another county. I oppose (a) the over-intimate linkage of these events (notwithstanding the Churchill connection) and (b) the perceived POV attack on the term 'Tonypandy riots', followed in the next par by the change from 'more official version' to quasi-official version. What's going on here? Can we discuss such crucial unexplained variations before adopting them, please? If not, I intend to revert without delay to the previous text. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 14:24, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur. Revert it. FruitMonkey (talk) 16:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I was trying, perhaps without sufficient clarity, to sort out nomenclature of the riots in Wales in 19120/11. Tonypandy was a riot, of course; the linked disturbances are better known as the Rhondda Riots. (Sorry that I seem not to have said so. I meant to...).  On a second point, the disputed question of deaths during these riots, it seemed to me worth pointing out that there are fully accredited (e.g. ODNB, the only authoritative source I have to hand) deaths in these disturbances - but they were at Llanelli, not Tonypandy. Maybe Llanelle is too far from Rhondda. 3) I altered to 'quasi-official' in trying to stimulate a response to my concern that I do not know why The New Age, which I can't access, is 'semi-official'. I see I shd have used talk page: sorry. But how better to describe a periodical that wikipedia itself says is 'a British literary magazine...as a publication of the Christian Socialist movement'? It doesn't sound any sort of 'official'. MacAuslan (talk) 05:38, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Thanks for the attention you're giving this, Bjenks - my own main interest is elsewhere. Originally I stumbled across this, and was surprised to find New Age treated as 'Semi-official'. Is a tourist page on the Rhondda Cynon Taf council truly a certification of authenticity for an academic source? I don't want to seem po-faced or snotty about this, nor to affront any local sensibilities; but it remains a nagging doubt in my mind. The real question is how to communicate (neutrally) the position re Churchill's guilt or otherwise in deaths in S. Wales 1910-11 - or at least , that is what I was looking for; and found the article, as written, blurred as to geography. I have no investment in my feeble efforts to un-blur it, which I think you rightly saw had not succeeded. Maybe the best descriptor is "disturbances in South Wales 1910-1911"? One of my reasons for entering on this was the fact that I got to the article via a redirect from 'Tonypandy Riots' (plural) from another article. In Winston Churchill which I was using, I find another geographical peculiarity which may explain why I did what I did: "In 1910, a number of coal miners in the Rhondda Valley began what has come to be known as the Tonypandy Riot" Finally, is 'OEDB' the same as what I call 'ODNB'? There's an article on Dictionary of National Biography, with a redirect from ODNB, but no redirect from OEDB. MacAuslan (talk) 12:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, sorry, my mistake: ODNB is the right name. I never previously consulted it because of the registration difficulty for a non-UK resident. Now, I've learned I can access it through my membership of the National Library of Wales :) Cheers Bjenks (talk) 23:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

text: I should have added Thanks, Bjenks, for reminding me to use the Discussion pages before messing around with articles - especially those, to be frank, of which I don't have much knowledge. MacAuslan (talk) 12:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The Rhondda Riots started around the fairly militant Cambrian Combine, which were led by Syndicalist unionists. The first real clashes began outside Tonypandy in the neighbouring villages of Llwynypia (the Scotch mine) and the Ely Pit in Penygraig. All these villages are within the Rhondda. It just so happens that Tonypandy was the location when tempers boiled over and the most violent of the clashes erupted. Llanelli is a red-herring, its not connected with these events as the issue being fought over was very local to the Rhondda. Also the RCT article is not a tourist page, it is a historical archive published and maintained by the RCT library service. Librarians are professional archivists and should be afforded the same respect for their work as museum staff. FruitMonkey (talk) 12:50, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

text: Librarians are indeed professionally respectable. I mis-identified a page headed "Heritage Trail" under the influence of a lot of sloppy behaviour by English councils, not noticing the 'Library Services'. Thanks,  FruitMonkey - and apologies. MacAuslan (talk) 08:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why Llanelli here? 

message: I've raised this somewhere before and still think it needs resolving. An unlikely offered price per ton of "2s1.3d (sic)" is cited on the Rhondda Cynon Taf website and is faithfully reproduced in the WP article. Earlier, the site says "management offered 1s.9.d per ton for workers mining the seam, whereas workers demanded 2s.9.d".  This leads me to suggest that the offered price should read 2s 3d. (Full points were never used in abbreviating £ s d, let alone decimals of pence.) The only fractions of pence allowable would have been the halfpenny or farthing, but the tone of the source material suggests that the negotiations were in terms of whole pence per ton. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 01:44, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, must have been a typo. FruitMonkey (talk) 06:59, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apparent error in price per ton  

message: We seem to be going through a lot of contortions in the treatment of Churchill's role, reputation, grandson, etc, etc, all of which is very interesting, though much detail is quickly amended and lost. There is also insufficient discussion of the changes being made, and not enough specific referencing of the historiography (as distinct from reportage, commentary, interpretation, etc.) Rather than keep trying to refine these issues into one or two paragraphs in this article (and in other articles here and here, I propose that we consider a separate main article, titled Rhondda military deployment, 1910-11. This would enable the various sources to be brought together and more seriously considered.  What do others think? Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 03:46, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking further into this, I think it will be possible to expose much more interesting material than we really want to put into the Tonypandy article. For instance, I have found in the Australian National Library a contemporary Reuters report and a 1954 story Woman M.P. Will Not Sign Memorial Book. These are, of course, Fleet Street reports picked up by other newspapers. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 03:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. I've received Randolph Churchill's (ahem) objective documentation of the events in his book on The Young Statesman and will start working on this in a sandbox. Any suggestions and/or better ideas for an article title will be gratefully considered. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 02:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Point taken, but we don't have Churchill's role. . . at the Siege of Sidney Street, Gallipoli Campaign, Siege of Tobruk, etc.  Perhaps the article section Winston Churchill in politics: 1900–1939#Home Secretary is where our stuff belongs, even if it means splitting that article into two. Better to think it through now rather than later. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 03:00, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Churchill controversy—How about a main article? 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Tonypandy riots. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20040928125251/http://www.south-wales.police.uk:80/fe/master.asp?n1=8&n2=253&n3=484&n4=489 to http://www.south-wales.police.uk/fe/master.asp?n1=8&n2=253&n3=484&n4=489
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 21:19, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It is important the article should mention that no miners were shot by the army, despite rumours to the contrary. (81.159.7.175 (talk) 14:38, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: there is nothing in the article that is sourced there are any credible rumours about miners being killed. You would need to reliably source the rumours and the fact that the rumours are wrong. Also it would not belong in the lead. -- GB fan 15:27, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Richard Burton wrote two articles in November 1974 in which he claimed miners were shot dead by the British army at Tonypandy. His younger brother Graham Jenkins confirmed none of this ever happened. (81.159.7.175 (talk) 16:39, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: My Dad, who was born at Cwmclydach in 1910, often relayed his chagrin towards Churchill for bringing in the troops, but never mentioned any killing. (He would have got from his own dad) that taking on the coppers was regarded as a fair fight (fists and pick handles vs truncheons); but it was not fair play to bring in the threat of firearms and bayonets. In those days, it was OK, even desirable, to have a "scrap", and every pit-family boy at an early age was educated in how to "look after" himself. Bjenks (talk) 03:19, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Would Burton have known that nobody was killed? (5.81.222.33 (talk) 10:38, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Burton, who lived only 59 years and died in 1984 was not born then, so any knowledge he had would have been inevitably second-hand.Cloptonson (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  No miners were killed 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Tonypandy riots. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080820231910/http://webapps.rhondda-cynon-taf.gov.uk/heritagetrail/rhondda/tonypandy/tonypandy.htm to http://webapps.rhondda-cynon-taf.gov.uk/heritagetrail/rhondda/tonypandy/tonypandy.htm
*Added  tag to http://www.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/stellent/groups/public/documents/hcst/content.hcst?lang=en&textonly=on&dDocName=016833
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110718144058/http://webapps.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/heritagetrail/rhondda/Rhondda%20-%20The%20Story%20of%20Coal.pdf to http://webapps.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/heritagetrail/rhondda/Rhondda%20-%20The%20Story%20of%20Coal.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: *  - building may warrant an article. KJP1 (talk) 18:28, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible use