Talk:Ancient Order of Hibernians

message: The AOH also has a large number of branches in Ireland itself. - from the article.
It does? Is there any evidence we can point to to support this? - Pete C ✍ 22:23, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: is it possible to find out about the history of a particular sash? 92.10.234.192 (talk) 17:23, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Branches in Ireland 

message: What's the factual basis for the statement that the AOH is anti-protestant?
:Repeated assertions by commentators: . -Willmcw 22:26, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
::Commentaries are opinions, not facts. AOH was not founded as an anti-Protestant organization.  If some criticize AOH as being anti-Protestant, then the article should read "Its critics accuse it of anti-Protestantism."  That was done for the article on the organization's alleged counterpart, the Orange Order .  --Brianf 20:22:17, 2005-08-12 (UTC)
:::Do we have their founding documents? If not, how do we know what their founding purpose was? Thanks, -Willmcw 20:09, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
::::If we don't have founding docs, better to make hedged assertions (a la, "some say," "critics say," or "it seems that" they are anti-Protestant, than to ascribe a definite founding purpose or guiding principle, willmcw. It's far worse to make a positive unfounded assertion--"they are anti-protestant," which thus far appears to be only commentary/opinion--than to fail to make an assertion which may be true.
I have also been to several AOH Halls in Ireland.  IF you look at the website www.aoh.com  you can find contct information for a few halls under Pride of Erin.  Which is the state board for Ireland
The AOH is not Anti - Protestant. The AOH is an Irish Catholic Fraternal Organisation and Friendly society. Membership requires specifically that members reach out to members of other faiths and beliefs. While people who are not Irish and Catholic can not become members they are welcome in halls,clubs, at events etc. The AOH in Ireland is a separate organisation to the AOH in America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere although all AOH Orders have connections.
Seán  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-protestant? 

message: Is there any information suggesting there is membership outside both America and Ireland? If the membership stipulates one has to be of Irish descent, couldn't there be members/associations in other countries? i.e There are large Irish immigrant populations in Scotland, England, Australia etc 82.31.33.178 14:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worldwide Membership? 

message: I think the historical background section at the beginning should be reworded, because I found it very confusing, especially this part:
His part of Ireland was called Laois, and had been settled by the Catholic Queen Mary in the 1550s. Accordingly O'Moore's revolt against this settlement in the next decade took on a religious aspect.
So, O'Moore's part of Ireland was Laois?  I think that's unclear due to the previous line.  Also, was he rebelling against the settlement established by a Catholic queen?  How does that fit in with the AOH's goal of being a society for the protection of Catholic interests?66.230.72.51 18:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the referenced article is completely wrong. Rory O'More was the local chieftain, and his family had been there for centuries. They had nothing to do with the 'Clanna Rory' of Ulster. In 1553-58 the (very Catholic) Mary of England settled County Laois (renamed Queen's County) with English settlers, and also the next door County Offaly as "King's County" named after her husband Philip II of Spain. So O'More's loss was an English-Irish matter and not a Catholic-Protestant dispute. I'm amazed that the encyclopedia could get it so wrong, but our Irish-American cousins aren't good at the minutiae of history. In fact Mary was the last sovereign Catholic queen of Ireland. The AOH was set up centuries later.Red Hurley 16:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

text: And looking further, Radclyffe's (Sussex's) family were the very Catholic dukes of Norfolk (who still are). The Defenders were set up in the 1780s in another part of Ireland. And why would O'More describe his brand-new group as "ancient"? Sounds like yet another American group needing to invent an ancient past to wow its new members. The encyclopedia was drafted in 1910 which says it all.Red Hurley 16:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There should be a category for these sort of organizations - that are "ancient" from day one. Do they have a special handshake like the masons?86.42.207.30 (talk) 21:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, there are little masonic hands shaking on the logo that I found haha. Hmmm, they seem quite Jacobin from their site (promoting socialist political parties). Yet apparently some fought for El Caudillo against the infidel during the Last Crusade, confusing - maybe they have changed over time. - Yorkshirian (talk) 22:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical background 

message: In the absense of any supporting evidence I've removed the section relating to controversial AOH marches.
The AOH in Ireland do not hold marches or parades. The current "Legal" term applied in the North of Ireland to our public processions is "Parading" however we describe our activity as religious processions - following a tradition used by many in the Christian world from about the 3rd or 4th century AD. We do not have contentious "Parades" because of a number of reasons. Mainly because we withdrew our processions from the streets in the North of Ireland during most of the period referred to as the "Troubles" and secondly because we celebrate Feast days such as St. Patrick's Day (March 17th) and the Feast of the Assumption (August 15th). Our processions tend to be hosted within Catholic majority areas. for the AOH the date of the procession takes prime importance over any piece of land or "Traditional Route". We also do not require members to participate in public processions, neither do we hire in or invite outside bands to our processions. We have our own AOH bands. The nature and meaning of our religious processions are very far removed from Marches or Parades which celebrate victories or commemorate battles or which are militaristic in nature. Seán  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:20, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marching Season 

message: I removed this sentence because it wasn't sourced and had been like that for about six months. I think that with the removal of that last unsourced statement that this article is finally "cleaned up". P.Haney 20:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed unsourced sentence 

message: Given that AOH members "must be Catholic and either Irish born or of Irish descent" I intend to add the descriptor "sectarian" to the first sentence of the article. Unless anyone can concince me that the AOH is not sectarian, and in fact allows non-Catholics to join? In which case we would need to do some extensive clean-up of the article. Irvine22 (talk) 14:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I am surprised that your many blocks have failed to show you the error of your ways, I believe it is time to go for a full topic ban. O Fenian (talk) 18:04, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I was looking at the Orange Institution article and I notice that that particular Protestant fraternal organization is described as "sectarian" in the lede of that article. That seems to be a pretty solid precedent for describing the Order of Ancient Hibernians as "sectarian", don't you think? Irvine22 (talk) 00:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it really isn't. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 00:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sectarian? 

message: Does the article fully cover the homophobic attitudes of the AOH, as expressed by the longtime ban on gay and lesbian groups participating in the New York St Patrick's Day parade? Roger Casement would not approve. Neither would Patrick Pearse for that matter. Irvine22 (talk) 01:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: You have no idea of what Casement or Pearse would approve or disapprove.  Furthermore, the AOH is not homophobic, which is one of the most overused terms of our age.  The AOH is a largely Catholic organization, and Catholic teaching condemns homosexuality as sinful.  Whether you agree with that teaching is irrelevant, and calling it homophobia is inaccurate. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:46, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The OP Irvine22 has been banned from Wikipedia indefinitely for "unrepentant and apparently unreformable history of disruption and aggression" which could obviously include this suggestion.
The AOH in Ireland is not homophobic. You will find various inaccurate references to the AOH and homophobia on the internet - but they are just that - inaccurate. The AOH follow church teaching but that does not make them homophobic. As for the St. Patrick's day parade in New York, it is organised by the AOH in America. I think you will find that the issue is not about gay rights and / or homophobia... it is more about what is permitted in the procession. Seán  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Homophobic? 

message: As there is a link for the main webpage of the AOH, I see no need for any links to specific state or local affiliates.  There was a very long list of such links until a few months ago, when I removed them as inappropriate promotion.  Connections to affiliates can be found through the main page. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: There is a discussion currently happening at the Irish American article around Scots Irish content; the discussion needs more participation and editorial perspective (regardless of what yours might be.)  Please have a look there and share your thoughts as it affects both articles and really needs much more input than what is being offered by too few contributors.  Thank you 67.83.75.57 (talk) 15:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish American Wiki Article

message: I removed the following list from the article and bring it here for discussion.
*Hibernia Hall, Davenport, Iowa
*St. Michael's Church, Cemetery, Rectory and Ancient Order of Hibernians Hall, Parnell, Iowa
*Hibernian Hall (Boston, Massachusetts)
*Ancient Order of Hibernians Hall, Anaconda, Montana
*Hibernian Hall (Charleston, South Carolina)
What makes these buildings in particular notable?  Should we not have some references here that indicate why this is so? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 02:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, i just split those out to List of Hibernian buildings instead, and added a See also link to that, to avoid confusion here in this article.  Briefly, the NRHP-listed places are notable because they meet one or more of 4 objective criteria (architecturally important at a national level, significantly associated with an event or person, etc.), judged by local, state, national staff and documented extensively.  See National Register of Historic Places.  The list-article will get developed more by me, soon, to add a bit, and more by others over time.  If you're interested, you could follow instructions at wp:NRHPhelp to collect the good NRHP document sources which provide specifics on each one, and which are good, reliable sources.  Hope this helps.  I may not watch here;  perhaps further discussion at Talk:List of Hibernian buildings, if needed? --doncram (talk) 17:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for undertaking that. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 02:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable buildings 

message: The first paragraph of the Background in Ireland section, besides being grammatically all over the place, says that the "1565" version "is not supported by any modern academic historians of the period." Why have it, then? I'll axe the paragraph if nobody has any reasonable objection.  Scolaire (talk) 13:02, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The new version, while it is both less fanciful and properly sourced, is a very long and I'm afraid rather confusing sentence: "The tradition of Ribbonism, possibly dating back to the 1830s in Ulster, gradually evolved into a more open and respectable Ancient Order of Hibernians, a key note of the new Ribbonism of the 1890s, in its search for acceptance by the Church, organised under its Grandmaster Joseph Devlin (later Member of Parliament) of Belfast." Does it mean that ribbonism was a closed and unrespectable Ancient Order of Hibernians, or that it evolved into a more open and respectable form as the AOH? If the latter, what was the nature of this evolution? Was Joe Devlin a ribbonman who effected this evolution, as the run-on sentence suggests? How can an organisation be a key note of something? To what does "acceptance by the church" refer, since the church has not previously been mentioned? Some clarification would be welcome.  Scolaire (talk) 13:52, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I am linking a more accurate history prepared by the AOH in 2020 - the link is https://aoh.com/aoh-history/ - prepared by its National Historian Mike McCormack.78.17.2.37 (talk) 20:44, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Background section 

message: I'm not disputing that "" is the correct translation of "Ancient Order of Hibernians" into Irish, but is this Irish name commonly used anywhere? On a Google search, I only found one single incidence of the name that hadn't come from this Wikipedia article, and that was in somebody's comment on a YouTube video. The Irish Manual of Style says that an Irish version of a person's name may be given only "if it is a well-known, commonly used name for that person." The same should apply to organisations.  Scolaire (talk) 10:03, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irish name? 

message: Every year we see content being added about the AOH being criticised over the St. Patrick's Day Parade. I have a comment and a question. Comment: plenty of results come up on a Google news search about the parade being criticised. Not one of them says the Order has been criticised. This is not hair-splitting. If the criticism is directed at the organisation itself this should turn up in at least some of the searches; if not, it should not be a section in this article because there is no reliable source for the assertion that "the Ancient Order of Hibernians attracted criticism for their role..." Question: many of these reports say that the AOH organises the NYC parade, but is it true? The website of the parade organisers makes no mention of the AOH. It gives its address as Woodlawn Station Bronx, NY. The AOH St. Patricks Day page makes no mention of the NYC parade, and the list of addresses in New York does not include the Bronx. This story in the Spectator says that "it was run for more than a century by the Ancient Order of Hibernians...and it is now still effectively ruled by the Church" (italics added). A Google search with "-gay" added does not turn up a single result saying that the AOH organises the parade in NYC. Strange, that! So why do so many news stories say (usually at the end) that the parade is run by the AOH? My guess that it is because they saw it on Wikipedia.  Scolaire (talk) 23:40, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: An attempt was made here to deal with this question, but unfortunately I had to revert it as unsourced. If somebody could provide reliable sources it would be worth saying in the article that the Order is not the organiser of the NYC parade, since this assertion comes up so often. In reverting, I briefly retored the "Controversy" section, to make it clear that my removal of it was deliberate.  Scolaire (talk) 09:26, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The AOH does not run the NYC St. Patrick's Day parade, please see the following news article http://www.irishcentral.com/news/AOH-leader-says-national-members-resent-focus-on-New-York-parade-.html The Parade is organized by the NYC ST. Patrick's Day Parade committee  http://www.nycstpatricksparade.org/ a completely separate organization.  The fact that "this assertion comes up so often" is a sad commentary on the death of Journalism, where reporters just parrot other sources without doing their homework.  Request that his controversy be removed from the AOH section as it is only further promulgating misinformation.  Ncosgrov (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The AOH ran the parade from about 1851 when it became its official sponsor, until 1992, when the National AOH, in the face of growing opposition to their policies and repeated lawsuits against them, directed all AOH organizations to form separate corporations to run events such as the parade. According to the parade organizer's own site, "The NYC St. Patrick's Day Parade is run today by members of the AOH under a separate corporation, St Patrick’s Day Parade Inc." . It's quite strange that this information doesn't appear in the article; it is what the Ancient Order of Hibernians is known for, even if that fact annoys them.  - Nunh-huh 01:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patrick's Day Parade 

message: The Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernian's is not an Auxiliary of the Ancient Order of Hibernians.   Since  2004 they have been incorporated on their own as Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernians, Inc. http://www.ladiesaoh.com/?page_id=7.  Recommend that the LAOH sections please be removed and a separate LAOH article be created.  Ncosgrov (talk) 16:03, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernian s (LAOH) is not an Auxiliary of the AOH 

message: should an In popular culture section be added?
this organization is sometimes referred to in satire as being part of a conspiracy involving banks and multinational corporations.
And likely nonexistent books such as Mein Streachailt or  “'The elders of Hibernia and their protocols'” is often mentioned as these usually parody anti-zionist literature and propaganda.
Basically the meme says that the Irish are responsible for things that Jewish are blamed for
:Popular culture where? In Buenos Aires and Nizhni-Novgorod? I think not.78.17.2.37 (talk) 20:41, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  In popular culture