Talk:Neoteny

message: This article seems to be an argument centered around authority figures rather than facts. The people who have the respective views are given more prominence than the views they spouse, or the data supporting those views. Not very good science.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.5.245 (talk) 13:13, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added "juvenilization" to the lead sentence in order to relate the topic to its redirection. • Freechild'sup? 14:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some cleanup 

message: How does one actually pronounce "neoteny"? grendel|khan 19:55, 2005 Mar 28 (UTC)
: My professors pronounced it like "knee-ought-ten-knee" (I know those aren't official phoenetic symbols). Then again, I'm Canadian. --Waterspyder 22:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Say if rhymes with monotony. Jidanni (talk) 21:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

text: I added more pronunciations cited to various dictionaries. I did not find the /niːˈɒtɨni/ pronunciation. Do you know a dictionary that states that that is the correct pronunciation?--Ephert (talk) 16:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ephert, please learn IPA notation. What Merriam-Webster transcribes as /nē.ˈä.tə.nē/ in IPA is /niˈɑtəni/. The same is valid for the other dictionaries. Piaractus (talk) 13:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

text: All pronunciations are in fact just one, because they simply account for different accents or different conventions. /iː/ is the same as /i/ (the vowel of fleece); unstressed /iː/ is the same as /i/ and also the same as /ɪ/ (the last vowel oh "happy"); [ɒ] and [ɑ] are the British and American realizations of  the vowel in "lot", usually represented as /ɒ/; and the differences among [niˈɒtɨni], [niˈɒtəni] or [niˈɒt.n.i] can be attributed to accent; there are also dictionaries that use [niˈɒtəni]. Piaractus (talk) 16:22, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

text: The article Help:IPA for English has a much better explanation than mine. Piaractus (talk) 17:59, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I am not convinced. I think /iː/ and /ɪ/ refer to different sounds.--Ephert (talk) 07:12, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation? 

message: In the neoteny entry there are many references to a similar process, progenesis. A short description:
- neoteny: the retaining of early characters (usually embryonic) in the adult.
- progenesis: the earlier acquisition of sexual organs and gonads which can lead to sexually mature larval stages such as the ones mentioned in the neoteny entry.
Whoever is responsible for the neoteny entry, please revise your sources.
I agree that this could do with clarification - the definitions that someone has anonymously posted immediately above are what I understand neoteny and progenesis to mean. Does anyone disagree to my clarifying this in the article? Owl 18:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, thsi article is actually about paedomorphism, NOT neoteny  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.5.245 (talk) 23:24, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  please do not confuse neoteny and progenesis 

message: "However, a more famous example is the Giant Panda, an animal that retains its baby like cuteness into adulthood."
*Erh!?!?!?!?!? It may LOOK cute to a human, but as an adult it is "as mean-minded as the grisliest of bears" Anthony Appleyard 17:39, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Come now, we know that all bears are Godless killing machines! Richard001 02:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: giant panda

message: After reviewing material from when I studied this in University, what is described in this article is a little closer to paedomorphosis than it is to neoteny. Neoteny is a particular mechanism of paedomorphosis in which juvenile physical or somatic characteristics are slowed or delayed. Progenesis is another mechanism by which the organism's development is halted before achieving ancestral maturity. I will eb making some changes, and will be moving some of the material over to paedomorphosis as appropriate. --Waterspyder 22:27, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you are going to get serious, I suggest using numbered references. --JWSchmidt 23:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

text: The book "Developmental Biology of the Axolotl" refers to the animal and its relatives as neotenic. It does undergo a cryptic metamorphosis in which the lungs become functional. A neotenic salamander may also be larger than a non-neotenic adult when it reaches maturity. So it's a failure to transform completely. 05:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major change announcement 

message: On 7 March 2006, 24.61.98.230 wrote:
:It is also theorized that the phylum Chordata first originated as a result of paedomorphism occuring in a highly primitive animal such as a sponge or coral.
This comment must be substantiated. I am removing it; the user in question may feel free to add it back with an appropriate citation. --April Arcus 20:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: However, in modern evolutionary biology it is generally accepted that the important evolutionary transition from invertebrates to vertebrates was the result of an instance of neoteny.
I am familiar with this hypothesis, and with the recent revision of the chordate lineage that lends it some credibility, however it would still seem to be far from "generally accepted". --74.102.135.71 01:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Chordates

message: I believe the biological changes on Bean in the Ender's Shadow series known as Anton's Key would be an example of neoteny.  The exponential growth and extreme penchant for learning are characteristics of babies that Bean holds on to.  Would this be appropriate for inclusion?  Mathwhiz90601 (talk) 05:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bean in the Ender's Shadow Series 

message: I have read somewhere (and I haven't read "The Naked Ape") that the reasons that humans are the only mammals that have sexual intercourse face to face is because in the juvenile female the vagina is situated prominently at the front of the body, but that in non-human mammals, as the female matures, the vagina gradually moves closer to the anus, making the so-called "doggie style" the only practicable position. Thus, the "missionary position" would be the result of neotonous aspects in human evolution, although why this should happen is unclear to me. Any thoughts on this? Myles325a (talk) 07:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Movement of vagina 

message: cool. i like this :) "humans" and "other animals"
I wish I'd hear this more often. It's usually "humans" and "animals"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.123.58.189 (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "In humans" and "In other animals" 

message: It is surprising to the non-expert that a "large brain" could be an example of "retention, by adults in a species, of traits previously seen only in juveniles". Although sourced, a couple of words of explanation would be helpful I think. Do juveniles have larger brains than adults? Is that what it's saying? 86.181.173.177 (talk) 13:52, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I just checked the "Growing Young" source material and confirmed that Ashley Montagu did indeed claim a "larger brain" and a "large brain" were "neotenous". He also has said, "size of brain is certainly a neotenous trait".  In explanation of his brain size claim, he mentions a criticism from zoologist R.F.Ewer whose critique was that "In humans the relatively large size of the brain... does not result from curtailing growth," to which Montague responded, "neoteny... is not a 'curtailing of growth'...but a retention of fetal growth rate during the first years of life, and this is a fact, not a theory".--Ephert (talk) 17:19, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Juveniles tend to have relatively (not absolutely) larger brains than adults, if I'm not mistaken. People who maintain what some call "neoteny" in this feature, will retain relatively large brains into adulthood (consequently the Mongoloids are considered by some to be more "neotenous" in this feature than other groups are, as they have [on average] the largest brains relative to overall body size [and consequently the largest brains on an absolute scale as well]). --Supjet (talk) 13:33, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Large brain 

message: "Small genitalia." Is that vandalism, as far as I've heard, human genitalia is extremely large when compared to other primates. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:40, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to be derived from this edit:  although it looks weird to me. I can't see why small genitalia would be a sign of neoteny to begin with, though, since neoteny includes sexual maturity. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:21, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  In his biography of John R. Baker and critique of "Race, Foundation for Human Understanding" by John R. Baker,  Michael G. Kenny of the Department of Anthropology at Simon Fraser University said "Race was not based on original research", (Kenny, 2004, pp. 411). I interpret this to mean someone else -- a person of authority -- must have documented the small genitalia of the Bushmen and Baker only included a citation of it. I do not know this for sure, however, since, after having searched through three anthropology databases for hours, I have come to the conclusion, unfortunately, that I do not have a way to view the original text. I must have used the self-published review of the article written by "Thomas Jackson" and trusted the information it claimed was found in the Baker source. Self-published sources are not reliable, so I think I will have to remove my citations to John R. Baker. If anybody has access to the original Baker source and can find to whom he cited his statements about the Bushmen, I would much appreciate it, so I could find it in an anthropology database and cite it.--Ephert (talk) 04:14, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This might be due to me misunderstanding the concept, but as far as I have interpreted it, for humans in general, it means that adult or sexually mature individuals have retained many childlike features, such as round smooth faces, and smooth unwrinkled skin. Bringing in "small genitalia" seems somewhat contradictory, since a fully developed adult human male normally have very large genitalia compared to related, allegedly less neotenic, species. The closely related chimpanzee and bonobo being notably larger than the more distant gorilla, orangutan and gibbon. Thanks for your answer. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:28, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Humans have some traits that are less neotenous than other Great Apes such as a fleshy nose, long legs and, as you pointed out, a larger gentialia.--Ephert (talk) 21:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Small genitalia

message: This source added in this edit does not say that human brain shinkage contradicts the humans are neotenous hypothesis. The information in this article is presented in a very different way from the citations that are currently included as contradictions to the humans are neotenous hypothesis, since those actually are written from the perspective of contradicting said hypothesis and explicitly state their claims to disprove said hypothesis.  On the other hand, the source about brain size decrease says human brain size decrease in old age is not found in other primates, but it does not say it contradicts the humans are neotenous hypothesis. It would require synthesis of sources with one source saying brain size decrease contradicts neoteny to be relevant to this article and synthesis of sources is not allowed on Wikipedia. Synthesis of sources is a form of original research.--Ephert (talk) 03:38, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Brain size decrease with age

message: My sister had anatomy lessons and I asked her. She told me that one (h.s.sapiens) is female skull. It's wrong way to define neoteny. That is not inter-species comparison. I rather prefer a male and a female h.s.sapiens comparison. A comparison between a male h.s.sap. skull and a male h.s.nea. skull is also can be good. But, honestly, even my skull is much more identical to neanderthal one at some aspects. Please confirm. Is that a female skull?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.229.14.127 (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Comparison between female h. sap. sapiens skull and male h. sap. neandertalensis skull

message: I got this impression since it seems to me that most of the views described in the article are with regards to Caucasian traits. Indeed, many of the "neotenous" features mentioned would not be considered "neotenous" if the very idea of "neoteny" as the retention of juvenile traits into adulthood was to instead be based on an average of peoples' typical features among all races, as some of the features that would be considered neotenous relative to Caucasians are actually more common among all adults - Caucasian or otherwise - than the non-neotenous counterparts (which would indeed seem to suggest that such features - when used in context among all people rather than just relative to Caucasians - are not necessarily retained juvenile features but more likely retained features that are in fact normal for many adults to have and that consequently may not be considered juvenile in context). In this case, I suspect that the notion of "neoteny" described in this article being largely applied relative to Caucasian features should be noted in the introductory section and/or where relevant, as it poses quite a significant assumption. --Supjet (talk) 13:59, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is definitely problematic in that it treats "Caucasians" as the default, with all other "races" being defined by their relation to that Caucasian template. But that conceals a deeper problem: neoteny is a biological phenomenon, not a sociological one. Race, by contrast, exists solely as a social construct. Biologically speaking, racial differences account for a negligibly tiny fraction of human DNA and race, for all intents and purposes, simply doesn't exist. In a biologically-focused article, such as this one, race ought to be completely irrelevant. As such, I'd say it would be better if the comparisons between races were either removed entirely or replaced with a brief mention as part of the history of research into neoteny.--Life in General (Talk) 09:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

text: Betweem humans and chimpanzees there exists a taxonomical difference, which clearly doesn't exist between different human races. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

text: While many historical cultures have had ideas of race, the specific divisions and categories are not universal or stable over time.  Your argument is comparable to saying that the prevalence of religion across cultures is proof of the existence of supernatural beings. 138.16.21.199 (talk) 07:32, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

text: Are you kidding with this?  Race is a cultural distinction, not a scientific one.  It is entirely possible for a black person and a white person to be more genetically similar than two white people. 2602:30B:8266:4C29:5021:D509:AB3A:CBA6 (talk) 23:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  So "neoteny" here is mostly applied relative to Caucasian features? 

message: In a few sections talking about scientific studies, there are an extremely unnecessary amount of quotation marks, specifically in the difference between sexes section. It is very distracting to read. Just a thought.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.252.152 (talk) 09:05, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotations 

message: The difference between progressive traits & neoteny is posited at the "progressive" disambiguation talk page. 216.227.108.60 (talk) 07:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neoteny versus progressiveness/kainoteny 

message: there are 3 types of pure paedomorphosis: neoteny (decreased rate), progenesis (early offset) and postdisplacement (late onset).  Post displacement does not seem to have been mentioned in Gould 1977 work  but has appeared in later works, such as Alberch et al (which notably included Gould) 1979.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Porangey (talk • contribs) 
:You refer to the lead, and I can add to your comment that the lead is unclear for those without prior knowledge. It needs to be rewritten by someone who knows a bit more about neoteny and pedomorphism/pedomorphosis(???) Lova Falk talk 05:26, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Types of paedomorphosis 

message: In this section there is a large emphasis on salamanders, however it can be expanded in other species. Also, I viewed some of the sources and there should be more scientific, peer reviewed articles to support the statements regarding neoteny in birds. In many of the other sections there is reference to the views and opionions of a single individual; there should be more scientific statements presented instead the opinions of just one individual. Neoteny, and neotenic traits, in humans can be expanded to include more development. Instead of just listing the traits, you could expand on which ancestors they came from and why those traits were retained.Kmkammer (talk) 10:27, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The article mentions vertebrates speculatively but does not mention the Larvacea which are considered prime examples of neoteny and the model for the theory that vertebrates result from neoteny. 70.215.4.55 (talk) 22:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  In Other Species 

message: 1. Add some classic examples of paedomorphism; where is it seen.
2. Update the definition of paedomorphism. Include the two aspects of paedomorphism.
3. Add how paedomorphism can be said in evolutionary terms. 
All these could result in a better understanding of neoteny. Better understanding of paedomorphism will help the reader understand neoteny.
Bowman.1289 (talk) 22:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add on paedomorphism 

message: Thank you for your informing article. All I miss is people. Not one person is mentioned, allthough there were quite a few people involved in the process of calling something neoteny, doing the necessary research and changing its concept over time.
: Agreed. There's no real history here, beyond the implication that Gould is the originator of the term. If he is, then the main source is his 1977 Ontogeny and Phylogeny, and it should be included. In the work, he discusses several evolutionary mechanisms, of which neoteny is one. An article on neoteny without mentioning this book is like a hamburger without any meat. Theonemacduff (talk) 17:53, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you know what to add, go to it, and cite the book. A History section would also be welcome, suitably cited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:33, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've started the section. It would be good to continue with a discussion of the relationship of neoteny to hypermorphosis, but perhaps that belongs in the body of the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:38, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing persons

message: The article as it now stands is very largely about Neoteny in humans, with little about other animals, the mentions of some groups being a mere afterthought, indeed an afterlist (you'll see what I mean). Clearly, the human story is important to the development of the concept as a whole - in which case, the History section (missing until today) should be substantially developed. Equally, if that is done, the detailed analysis of what neoteny means in humans (as opposed to the history of the main concept) could then be farmed out to a subsidiary article, 
(Neoteny in humans) and summarised here in a paragraph or two. The coverage of "all other animals" then needs to be extended to describe neoteny's appearance and characteristics in each group where it occurs. I've made a start on these changes. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:47, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Good luck with that. If you can find references that are dated after the 1990s - when people really believed this about domesticated animals - that would be a fine start. Regards,  William Harris |talk  09:34, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I mean animals in general. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:05, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Balance 

message: I've modified the statement about tiger salamanders and added a reference.  Axolotls are the "poster child" of neoteny, so we should definitely mention them, but there are numerous neotenic populations of tiger salamanders (see the link I added).  I've deleted the mention of "perenibranchiates", as it's even acknowledged as artificial group by Swingle (on page 2), and is more of a description than a clade (like "thecodont"), plus it didn't really serve much purpose other than to throw an undefined large term at the reader.  The actual taxonomy of the species used by Swingle is confusing to say the least; he uses the term "axolotl" explicitly, mixed with the scientific name Ambystoma tigrinum, and on page eight talks about "...a very large specimen of Axolotl mexicanum (neotenic larva of Amblystoma tigrinum)...".  But he says the specimen came from New Mexico, outside of the axolotl's modern range, and that they spontaneously metamorphosed when he brought them to Yale.  I suspect there's some taxonomic confusion going on (not uncommon in old papers), and we should probably remain carefully agnostic about the actual species used in that specific paper. HCA (talk) 19:42, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tiger Salamander vs Axolotl neoteny 

message: I was genuinely surprised that this page makes no reference to the research on the domestication of the silver fox which tends to / seems to connect neoteny with domestication and 'tameness', with potential implications for neoteny in humans (which page also doesn't mention the fox research), and possibly the development of prosociality and culture in humans. While some of these connections I mention may be more on the speculative side, surely at least some of the connections discovered by the research are clear enough that mentioning the silver fox research by Dmitry Belyayev and Lyudmila Trut is warranted. Unfortunately, I personally don't know where in the page to place such a mention, nor to what extent, nor whether other more informed Wikipedia editors of this page would even agree that it's relevant. Thus, I decided to simply make a suggestion in this Talk page to see what others think, and perhaps come to a yea/nay consensus on it (or however such decisions are made on Wikipedia), instead of me clumsily barging in and making a mess of things. Cheers! 24.57.106.253 (talk) 13:15, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Domesticated Silver Foxes and neoteny research? 

message: The 'In humans' section is currently first, giving this one species excessive prominence in an article on a general biological topic. I suggest it be placed further down the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:41, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Excessive prominence for humans

message: You added a  here; it was removed by Chiswick Chap here, eighteen months later. When I compare these two versions, I do not find any tangible difference in reference density or in the factual references themselves, except as regards removing some duplication; but the formats of the references were made more uniform (and thus IMHO improved). My only question to you Altenmann, is: Are you reasonably satisfied with this cleanup, or do you see need for further reference improvements?
 You added a  here.  You interpreted  as a claim that the section needed a copy edit, and thus replaced the cleanup template with a  one here, but naturally (as I tend to do in such situations) you retained the date from Chiswick Chap's original claim.
However,  changed the date from the original March 2016 to October 2020 (the cleanup template reincarnation month) here, with the edit comment update date on ce template; the GOCE backlog is only three months. I can understand that Jonesey95 (and perhaps ) found the reappearance of a :Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit from March 2017 irritating; but IMHO the redating of the cleanup demand makes it harder to address the issues, since it makes it necessary to do a more careful history research to find out what the cleanup nominator thought they were, in the first place, and to judge whether these problems already have been fixed.
My questions to you, Chiswick Chap, are: You wrote that the section "needs a thorough copy-edit", and reinforced this with your edit comment "gosh this needs copy-editing big time". Could you please elucidate this a bit? Now, of course, you are a main contributor to the article, and may have intended the clean-up demand mainly as a remainder to yourself. Did you indeed intend to come back to this section, and fix whatever you found was bad? If so, is this still your intention?
I ask, since I do not immediately see what the problem would be. I do see that some sentences may be a bit clumsy (even if formally fairly correct), as forinstance
::Partial neoteny is the retention of the larval form beyond the usual age of maturation with the possibility of the development of sexual organs progenesis, but eventually, the organism still matures into the adult form; this can be seen in Lithobates clamitans
where some "noun clauses" in the first part are contrasted to a "verb clause" in the second (perhaps decreasing the legibility). Was this the kind of trouble you saw? Alternatively, I notice that the section lacks subsections, and might be more clearly divided into examples from different animal orders (or e. g. be divided by underlying mechanisms for neoteny; but I believe that the section formerly had that kind of structure, and that you removed it). Is this what you think should be fixed? Or, am I missing some other (more or less obvious) deficiency?
Personally, I think that improving the structure of the section would be more important than a conventional copy edit. I think that adding (or restoring) some discussion of theories of neoteny among tunicates (including both Garstang's theory of vertebrate origin, as described and refuted by Dawkins in The Ancestor's Tale, and the more limited theory of the origin of the larvaceans), and dissogonic examples such as some Miastor species (where, according to the Swedish Nationalencyklopedin, different individuals in the same species may either propagagate parthenogenetically as larvae, or sexually as fully developed imagos, depending on whether food is abundant or scarce). JoergenB (talk) 18:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  All seems sensible, go for it. The organisational improvements would be useful; and your sample sentence perfectly exemplifies an article that could be better written. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  The cleanup of the section ''Other species''.