Talk:Wilton Daniel Gregory

message: I have a publicity photo of the Archbishop ready to upload, but apparently it is against policy to do so.  If anyone has a self-made or otherwise free picture of him, please upload to Commons and link to this article. — Eoghanacht talk 18:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request photo

message: For those who claim there is a problem with the new photos I added to the article, all they need to do is look at the Archdiocesan website itself, here. It clearly says: "The images below are free use and in the public domain." How much clearer does it need to be? X4n6 (talk) 04:43, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claims of Copyvio on new photos 

message: You know, I've thought about your edits saying Gregory is "vested as..." Objectively, I've realized there's a serious problem with that. The suggestion is that Gregory was "vested" as a cardinal or "vested" as an archbishop, as though his vestments someone endowed his status. I'm pretty sure we can both agree that's very wrong. He was either an archbishop or cardinal at the time. You or I could wear those vestments. It would mean nothing about us. I can't imagine a photo of Queen Elizabeth with a caption, "Elizabeth, vested as a queen." She is Queen Elizabeth, whether she's wearing a crown and cloak or not. The caption may say Queen Elizabeth in her royal vestments, but it wouldn't suggest she was only queen because of the wardrobe she was modeling. Just as his vestments don't make him an archbishop or cardinal. He was either at the time. So there's something profoundly wrong about inferring anything different. He wasn't modeling vestments in those photos. Think about it. This is about getting it right. So I'd prefer that you restore the original edits so there is no more warring - or explain your thoughts if you disagree. Thanks. X4n6 (talk) 08:34, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't buy it. Elizium23 (talk) 20:20, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to argue with such an expansive and well-considered elucidation. So done. X4n6 (talk) 23:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

text: Although I'm technically a "lapsed" confirmed Catholic in their terms, I have idea about the intricacies of archbishop or cardinal vestments. But I don't think vestment of a queen is a very good comparison since AFAIK, such terms are not used. However as the article Coronation of Elizabeth II demonstrates, it's perfectly fine to say . Crowned is probably closest comparison here, and as that example and other examples there and elsewhere demonstrate, it's perfectly fine to say she was crowned Queen at that time. Yet as the phrase The king is dead, long live the king!, there's no question that Elizabeth II was queen of all those from the moment her father died, but the coronation and crowning and all that other stuff still happened. Of course accession to the throne unless by abdication or similar, is a sort of an odd time for most modern monarchs. Sure you're now the sovereign, whatever you may think of that, but it also means some relative, generally a parent, just died. Whether this means anything for Gregory, as said I have no idea. Nil Einne (talk) 17:09, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: TBH, not sure I followed your entire point. But I did get where you seem to be agreeing that "vested as" isn't the right way to go. As I said, I think you correctly identify the person by their title, not their apparel. X4n6 (talk) 21:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The point is that this is a visual medium, and a photo caption should explain the visuals. "Vested as a bishop" and "Vested as a cardinal" refer to very specific configurations of vestments, which can be looked up by a curious reader, and will explain e.g. the tinge of scarlet rather than amaranth on his zucchetto in the Mass photo, etc. Also it avoids fucking with MOS:HON which you seem to love doing. Elizium23 (talk) 21:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Careful, your blood pressure! And vulgarity on the talk page for a cardinal?!! Surely even you are capable of exhibiting more decorum - and more class. Also, see NOTGALLERY. We are more than just a "visual medium." If your only interest is in images, maybe you'd be more at home at Commons. This is an encyclopedia. Here, the words matter. So what I love is getting them right for the readers, 100% of whom don't know and couldn't care less about your fixation on MOS:HON - which by the way, it's past time someone reminds you - is just a guideline. It is NOT a policy. X4n6 (talk) 04:30, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: 99/100 references to NOTGALLERY are inappropriate, but rarely as spectacularly so as this one! Johnbod (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It served my purpose. Glad you liked it! X4n6 (talk) 04:50, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''"vested as"'' 

message: Thanks to everyone for weighing in. The deep dive that  made was particularly interesting. Not to mention, what had to be time-consuming. So rather than belabor the point any further, because I think we've done about as much sleuthing as we reasonably can - everything from side-by-side comparisons; to questions of authorship; and even head scratching over when the photo was taken - I'd like to suggest a solution. But first,  I can't help but be reminded of Rumsfeld's famous line: Because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns.
Gets me every time! Anyway, perhaps it's time to try a different approach. First, let's target what seems to be consensus. I've heard no one say the photo in question is not a quality image, or one that is not useful in the article. So I'll presume we have unanimous consent that having it in the article is a good thing. The next question becomes can we use it. The current direction seems to suggest likely not. So the solution is pretty simple: we seek permission. Unfortunately, regarding the author/contributor , this was clearly a one-and-done. No talk page, no other contributions or evidence of discussion elsewhere. So rather than speculating on the authorship, why not just contact the Archdiocese of Atlanta and ask if it is their photo, and if not, who is the photographer and can we get that person's contact info? Better still, if they own the copyright, see if they're willing to send a release to OTRS? If it's not theirs, surely they can point us in the right direction. Perhaps it was before his assignment to Atlanta. Or even his current posting in DC. Either way, Atlanta would seem to be the smart start. And quickly, before the file gets deleted at Commons. Bottomline, rather than continue speculating, someone just needs to ask them. That is, if we can agree that's a reasonable solution. X4n6 (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with contacting the Archdiocese. They likely own the image. Sundayclose (talk) 22:38, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed solution 

message: you wrote "clean up spacing & grammar errors". I don't see any grammar errors at all. As for spacing, it's highly unusual that an article would have a space after "Category:" I suppose there is no MOS rule, but it's simply not done as a matter of course. What made you decide to apply this novel style at this time? Elizium23 (talk) 05:15, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a new editor who has made a number of similar edits and made some less than helpful edits to text as well. S/he has been warned and reversed by others. I'll reverse this edit, understanding why you don't want to. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 12:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyedit 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:39, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: I just did a word count comparison between the text of the article itself (stopping at the list of references) and this talk page (not counting user name signature tags). My methodology may not have been exact, but the ratio I arrived at was 2,154 to 6,515. In other words, the talk page is three times the length of the article.The tamale (talk) 17:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: A Statistic of Possible Interest