Template talk:Apollo program

message: Is there any reason why this template is so wide? Savidan 02:08, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed it to fit a little bit better. Thanks for pointing it out.  Chuck 11:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 2006 Comments

message: See Category_talk:WikiProject_Space_missions_templates#Template_layout. — MrDolomite Talk 01:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template layout changes

message: I think the mission in this template should be grouped. Something like this:
:Does anyone have any comments? --GW_SimulationsUser Page | Talk 12:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Much more meaningful. Thanks. Possibly "Rocket tests" or "Saturn tests" rather than "Tests without spacecraft"? Sardanaphalus (talk) 16:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

text: Since just over a year has gone by with zero objections, I've applied this change. Personally, I think it looks much better. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 03:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice work, template is now much more useful. – ukexpat (talk) 03:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  New layout proposal 

message: On April 24, 1967, NASA's Associate Administrator for Manned Space Flight, Dr. George E. Mueller, officially decreed two things in the wake of the Apollo 1 fire:
* Apollo 1 was to be officially listed as "first manned Apollo Saturn flight - failed on ground test." Thus it was in fact to be considered the first LEO mission as intended, not a "training event"; the fact that it failed before launch notwithstanding.
* He rejected the proposal to renumber the first three flights (AS-201 = "Apollo 1A"; AS-202 = "Apollo 2"; "AS-203 = "Apollo 3"). Thus, there never was an Apollo 2 or Apollo 3 (notice also that the template (and the articles) were even wrong; 203 would have been "Apollo 3" even though it flew before 202.)
See Apollo 1#New mission naming scheme and its footnote reference 30 (NASA SP-4009) as authoritative citation. There is no way the prior state of the template, or redirection of Apollo 2 to AS-203 and Apollo 3 to AS-202, and calling Apollo 1 a "training exercise", can be considered anything other than original research. JustinTime55 (talk)
=== Re-numbering proposals of early missions ===
The most authoritative sources, NASA history, document how the policy was established for renaming the early missions. The Apollo Spacecraft: a Chronology, Vol. IV part 1< gives the process George Mueller gave to number all the missions, honoring the Apollo 1 widows' wish while minimizing contradiction and confusion. George Low sent him two alternate suggestions, both of which he rejected. Using Apollo 2 and Apollo 3 appears to be based on one of these, but you're even getting that reversed.
:"In a letter to George E. Mueller, OMSF, on March 30, MSC Deputy Director George M. Low offered two suggestions, in keeping with the intent of the NASA instruction yet keeping the designation Apollo 1 for spacecraft 012. NASA Hq. had approved that designation before the January 27 fire claimed the lives of Astronauts Virgil I. Grissom, Edward H. White II, and Roger B. Chaffee; and their widows requested that the designation be retained. The suggestions were: 
:1. [This was rejected out of hand; considering AS-201, 202 and 203 to be extensions of the Saturn I flights and resuming the numbering of what was Apollo 4 as Apollo 2, etc.]
:2. Designate the next flight Apollo 4, as indicated by Headquarters, but apply the scheme somewhat differently for missions already flown. Specifically, put the Apollo 1 designation on spacecraft 012 and then, for historic purposes, designate 201 as mission 1-a, 202 as mission 2 and 203 as mission 3."
So note that AS-202 would have been Apollo 2, not 3, and vice-versa. The fact that 202 wasn't ready in time, and thus was launched after 203, just adds more confusion. But moot, anyway; Mueller's final ruling:
:"A memorandum to the NASA space flight Centers, North American Aviation, and certain Headquarters personnel from the NASA Assistant Administrator for Public Affairs on April 3 stated that the Project Designation Committee had approved the Office of Manned Space Flight's recommendations and that Mueller had begun implementation of the designations.
:On April 24, OMSF further instructed the Centers that AS-204 would be officially recorded as Apollo 1, "first manned Apollo Saturn flight - failed on ground test." AS-201, AS-202, and AS-203 would not be renumbered in the "Apollo" series [emphasis added], and the next mission would be Apollo 4."
Even a New York Times reporter (John Noble Wilford who is nominally a reliable 1960s-70s space source, can occasionally get it wrong. In We Reach the Moon he refers in a footnote to the first three flights being renumbered Apollo 1, 2, and 3 (with no mention of how that contradicts the widows' wishes) and generally indexes the fire as AS 204, but says it was "sometimes referred to as Apollo 1".
Plus, does universe.com really qualify as a reliable source? Its privacy policy says it is exclusively the work of one Frasier Cain, but it seems to be another wiki (the "Apollo 3" article is by a Jerry Coffey.) I can't find any source citations (wait a minute; here we are: "There is a great article on the Apollo 3 mission here." That would be a circular reference.) I've seen some editors express skepticism about Encyclopedia Astronautica, but that looks more scholarly than universe.com appears to be; at least Mark Wade provides references.
I have done some Google searching for references to "Apollo 2" or "Apollo 3", and haven't found anything reliable. I've found mirrors of Wikipedia, or people who cite Wikipedia, or fan- or student-level sites. I even found a complete absurdity: a "picture of Apollo 2" which was a Saturn V on its pad! (Explain that?)
This is why the verifiability rule is so important; Wikipedia should not contribute to spreading more misinformation than it already has. I don't think we should identify any particular mission as 2 or 3 (especially in contradiction to the only reliable potential source), since that never officially happened. JustinTime55 (talk) 18:37, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Early missions 

message: The most authoritative sources, NASA history, document how the policy was established for renaming the early missions. The Apollo Spacecraft: a Chronology, Vol. IV part 1< gives the process George Mueller gave to number all the missions, honoring the Apollo 1 widows' wish while minimizing contradiction and confusion. George Low sent him two alternate suggestions, both of which he rejected. Using Apollo 2 and Apollo 3 appears to be based on one of these, but you're even getting that reversed.
:"In a letter to George E. Mueller, OMSF, on March 30, MSC Deputy Director George M. Low offered two suggestions, in keeping with the intent of the NASA instruction yet keeping the designation Apollo 1 for spacecraft 012. NASA Hq. had approved that designation before the January 27 fire claimed the lives of Astronauts Virgil I. Grissom, Edward H. White II, and Roger B. Chaffee; and their widows requested that the designation be retained. The suggestions were: 
:1. [This was rejected out of hand; considering AS-201, 202 and 203 to be extensions of the Saturn I flights and resuming the numbering of what was Apollo 4 as Apollo 2, etc.]
:2. Designate the next flight Apollo 4, as indicated by Headquarters, but apply the scheme somewhat differently for missions already flown. Specifically, put the Apollo 1 designation on spacecraft 012 and then, for historic purposes, designate 201 as mission 1-a, 202 as mission 2 and 203 as mission 3."
So note that AS-202 would have been Apollo 2, not 3, and vice-versa. The fact that 202 wasn't ready in time, and thus was launched after 203, just adds more confusion. But moot, anyway; Mueller's final ruling:
:"A memorandum to the NASA space flight Centers, North American Aviation, and certain Headquarters personnel from the NASA Assistant Administrator for Public Affairs on April 3 stated that the Project Designation Committee had approved the Office of Manned Space Flight's recommendations and that Mueller had begun implementation of the designations.
:On April 24, OMSF further instructed the Centers that AS-204 would be officially recorded as Apollo 1, "first manned Apollo Saturn flight - failed on ground test." AS-201, AS-202, and AS-203 would not be renumbered in the "Apollo" series [emphasis added], and the next mission would be Apollo 4."
Even a New York Times reporter (John Noble Wilford who is nominally a reliable 1960s-70s space source, can occasionally get it wrong. In We Reach the Moon he refers in a footnote to the first three flights being renumbered Apollo 1, 2, and 3 (with no mention of how that contradicts the widows' wishes) and generally indexes the fire as AS 204, but says it was "sometimes referred to as Apollo 1".
Plus, does universe.com really qualify as a reliable source? Its privacy policy says it is exclusively the work of one Frasier Cain, but it seems to be another wiki (the "Apollo 3" article is by a Jerry Coffey.) I can't find any source citations (wait a minute; here we are: "There is a great article on the Apollo 3 mission here." That would be a circular reference.) I've seen some editors express skepticism about Encyclopedia Astronautica, but that looks more scholarly than universe.com appears to be; at least Mark Wade provides references.
I have done some Google searching for references to "Apollo 2" or "Apollo 3", and haven't found anything reliable. I've found mirrors of Wikipedia, or people who cite Wikipedia, or fan- or student-level sites. I even found a complete absurdity: a "picture of Apollo 2" which was a Saturn V on its pad! (Explain that?)
This is why the verifiability rule is so important; Wikipedia should not contribute to spreading more misinformation than it already has. I don't think we should identify any particular mission as 2 or 3 (especially in contradiction to the only reliable potential source), since that never officially happened. JustinTime55 (talk) 18:37, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re-numbering proposals of early missions 

message: Hi. :Category:Apollo program's category members don't match this navbox. Either it should be renamed ("Template:Apollo missions" or something) or it should be updated to include the missing articles. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Rename Template:Apollo missions It seems pretty clear from this navigation template's contents that that's the current intent (see the title bar), so that's the right thing to do. Unfortunately, it looks like there are a lot of references; can this be facilitated by a bot? JustinTime55 (talk) 16:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:Category:Apollo program]] 

message: Apollo 13's mission was to land on the Moon and explore Fra Mauro. It was unable to do that because of the spacecraft failure, so it failed, period. "Successful failure" notwithstanding. A failed mission does not necessarily result in astronauts or cosmonauts dying, and fortunately it did not in this case. This is a simple navigation template; we need to keep WP:original research out of it. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:10, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: And there's no need to clutter up the template by adding any footnote about the mission. Those who want to know will find the information in the article. Sjö (talk) 06:30, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Apollo 13 "not a failure"? 

message: Probably should be added back. The rover was much more than ground equipment, but an essential astronaut-driven vehicle which is as much a part of the Apollo program as the other Apollo crewed components. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:42, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: (sigh) Allright, already. JustinTime55 (talk) 22:06, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The Rover gives new meaning to Moon race. And check out this LRO image of the Apollo 17 site on its highest resolution :File:584392main M168000580LR ap17 area.jpg. Just to the right and a little down of the LEM it looks almost like the rover was driven part way into a crater (haven't heard of that). Randy Kryn (talk) 23:02, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Incredibly comical that an entire  child group is being wasted on a single wikilink, though. This navbox is terribly confusing now, and I feel helpless to fix it because every single improvement I attempt to make gets reverted. I give up. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 06:33, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Lunar Roving Vehicle

message: Even with many missions not being added the individual mission sections seem to feel like a template-size question. The 'Apollo 11 specific' section was added because of the historical nature of the mission and the first landing. The Apollo 15 section followed, and presents its many mission overview articles. But with each mission now being focused on, with some of the items tangential (the Surveyor camera bacteria not really part of the mission and I'm going to remove that), one option could be a combined 'Other mission specifics' if an individual section contains, or would contain, less than four items (i.e. 'Apollo 8: Earthrise etc.) Seem feasible? Randy Kryn (talk) 12:57, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Mission specific sections