Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy/Archive 8

message: We should probably archive the debate again, it is getting quite lengthy --Snailwalker | talk 21:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, please do, and move the poll back down to the bottom. Protect for two minutes if necessary. Babajobu 21:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I second that AlEX 21:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archive again? 

message: Please, let's avoid editing the article while it's protected, even if it's just minor edits. It's a potentially problematic slippery slope. --cesarb 20:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editing while protected 

message: How about adding a proper image of the protest under international consequences?
say one with them burning the Danish flag, just to bring the controversy of the whole article to it's full potential. (Cloud02 22:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: agreed --KimvdLinde 22:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No, that will offend Danish nationalists.</sarcasm> Fredrik Johansson - talk - contribs 22:47, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: exactly my point (Cloud02 22:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: example AlEX 22:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Another protest image that could be added, but I find the one present to work well enough. The article can be found here AlEX 
Oh, and lets at least have some general consensus before someone just smacks in the picture (Cloud02 22:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image of Protest? 

message: It says that 40 artists were asked and there are twelve drawings.  I think an important question arises then... were there only twelve submissions?  Did the editor choose which he thought were best? or what was representative?  If so, were they representative?  I think these are important in relating to how much the newspaper chose to display.  gren グレン ? 23:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those 12 where the only ones to respond out of the 40 Jyllandsposten asked. (in danish) http://www.aiu.dk/avisnet/show.php?id=812 The.valiant.paladin 23:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

text: ... and the time to deadline was extremely short!  MX44 23:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good, I see it has been changed.  I think that's really important because it makes a huge difference if the editor of the paper used his own discretion in choosing or not.  The story would be a lot different if he got 30 submissions and thew out 15 that had Muhammad with a halo. gren グレン ? 04:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Editorial selection 

message: somewhere in this paragraph: "Akhmad Akkari, spokesman of the Danish Muslim organisations which organised the tour, explained that the three drawings had been added to "give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims." Akkari claimed he does not know the origin of the three pictures. He said they had been sent anonymously to Danish Muslims. However, when Ekstra Bladet asked if it could talk to these Muslims, Akkari refused to reveal their identity. These images had however never been published in Jyllands-Posten."
I think it's crucial for making sense of this story. Images can be found: 
 pig-muhammad http://ekstrabladet.dk/grafik/nettet/tegninger38.jpg
 muhammad screwing a dog http://ekstrabladet.dk/grafik/nettet/tegninger39.jpg
 evil pedo-muhammad http://ekstrabladet.dk/grafik/nettet/tegninger40.jpg 
--cokane 2 Feb 2006
: If you had read the article you would have seen the pictures had been brought in the paragraph just before. (Cloud02 00:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These pictures are the ones erroniously televised by BBC and al-Jazeera. I am not convinced they need even further attention? MX44 00:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Add this to page 

message: What on earth is the basis for the inclusion of this section, or the selection of items mentioned in it? Most of them seem utterly irrelevant. Palmiro | Talk 00:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversial newspaper caricatures section 

message: First of all i understand fully and truly the point of view that is conserned about the liberty of expression or liberty in general. I want just to mention some points wich i may develop later:
*haven t we to distinguish between the liberty of expression and the liberty of offensing other peoples (over the fifth of mankind) or between liberty and hurting others?
*haven t we to assure some balance between this liberty and the right of others (let me mention here that these others are not dogs or animals they are even american citizens or european)?
*where do the liberty of each one of us ends? (may be where the right or liberty of other peoples begins?)
*why are people who are adherent of this point of view always discredited as terrorist or against the liberty of expression or stupid etc... such in some contributions here? does such a priori assumption not descridit the assumption makers more than the assumption object?
*is reducling the queen (1 person) accepted in denmark (or norway i dont remember wich of them) or is it penalized by the law and offending people? i think it s penelized so why a huge community (i think the second religious community in europe) have to accept this offence?
*Does an ethic of journalism and publishing exist or not? if yes is it consistent with republishing the picture? i hope that wikipedia and the wikipedian will be the leaders on showing the attachment to this ethics
*is republishing the pictures consistent with antiracist laws and penal laws in general?
*is the publishing of the image really necessary? one can dicribe the picture by words (note i m not saying the article has to be deleted. one can put some related pictures but not those -for example of the boycott-).
so this is my first contribution. I hope we can discuss in respect of each other and without prejudices. thanx مبتدئ 01:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: مبتدئ - this will probably be deleted as being inappropriate for this discussion page, but let me respond briefly to you. Please understand that in a western country, any person or any newspaper can ridicule the king, queen, prime minister, president, any politician, any religious leader, and generally anyone they want. It happens all the time. It is totally legal. They don't suffer any consequences from this. That is why many westerners feel Muhammad should be just the same - a valid target for the type of humour called satire. Thparkth 01:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  "between the liberty of expression and the liberty of offensing other peoples". In no democratic society is there a right not to get offended. To the contrary, intrinsic to the freedom of speech and freedom of the press is the freedom to say REALLY offensive things, to ridicule their religion, to mock their prophets, to belittle their beliefs. It's not always wise to do so, but that's for each individual to decide. And of course it's legal to insult the queen, are you kidding? Babajobu 01:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: You have to understand that wikipedia is a encyclopedia not a journalist. A encyclopedia just states facts and does not censure anything and lets the readers decide. It is up to everyone for themselfs to decide if it was right or wrong originally published in the Danish newspapers Chaldean 01:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! - Barry Goldwater --UltraSkuzzi 02:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  ok thanks to all of you. i did not expect that someone will answer so fast. first of all i apologize for my bad english:
# for Mr Thparkth: thank you for explaining how the "west" or "western" socity work. fisrt of all i want to inform you that i m a part of this western socity (i dont like to use this term because it s too much connoteted to clash of west and east or in opposition to east). Mr Thparkth i m a european citizen and i know what i m talking about. it s not allowed to defame peoples and i think this holds without consideration of skin coulour or religion or function or sexual orientation or whatever. so what you are saying is not true. i can even tell you the exact paragraphs of the law. So summa summarum thank you for introducing me to democracy and liberty but i think i can say that i m good informed about this subject. the second point is: i hope that my contribution will not be deleted because i will understand it or it will be undemoctratic and illegal (in sense of wikipedia laws and ethics) and against the liberty of expression that is claimed here (i think what i wrote is related to the subject-in fact who decide if it s relevant or not?-). onother point is that you sayed that they dont have to be affraid of consequence; that s not true too. Mr i remember that a newspaper apologized for a politician just because the newspaper sayed the politician colors his hairs. onother example comes from uk where it was enforced by a court that the dayly mirror i think dont publish the document of bobing aljazeera otherwise they will have to encouter penalities. I hope yopu bleave what i m telling you if not just google a little or if have time i will provide you the urls.
# Mr Babajobu: first of all thank of saying: "It's not always wise to do so". Secondly you sayed there is no rhigt of not being offended: please see what i wrote above. thats not true at all!! one check anti deffamition laws two check anti racist laws three check antisemitism laws. these are all laws wich exists i m not lying or inventing them. i m sure 100% of it. ok the laws are made for individual case of deffamation somehow but they surly apply for a group of person and may be in a more strong way. i forget laws relative to social freedom wich are also integrated in some eu legislation and wich penalize every act that puts the social freedom in danger. i agree that these laws are applicated more or less strongly and that some of this laws only take effect if one makes a plaint but nevertheless they exist. in the legislation of my contry the second paragraph in the 1st section says the dignity of human beeing is untouchable for example (i dont remember now the exact words of antidefamation laws thats why i put a more general statement). such picture offend me in my dignty as a citizen (and a lot of other human beings) so they are anticonstitutional. concerning the queen i dont know of wich queen you are talking about (notice uk is not the only kingdom on the world and i v seen Mr been too :-)) anyway thats not the point.
# Mr Chaldean: thank you Mr for explaining what Wikipedia is. I m a sysop in wikipedia so i have a little idea of what wikipedia is :-) thanl you anyway for your comment. Mr i dont ask for censoring just be a little bit more responsable that s all. if you speak in terms of was it right or not to publish them by danish newspaper the answer is the newspapers apologized and admitted (may be in a not clear way) that they have doen a mistake by doing this. so the question is already answered. where is the problem in describing the picture by words for examples  ???? or / and putting pictures of the boycott (thats what maked the picture famous and mediatize the hole story???)
# Mr UltraSkuzziyou cite plato and Barry Goldwater but the 2 statments dont fit together somehow. but ok i will ignore this. "Moderation is part of justice": thats why laws are not always applicated or some laws (but almost it has nothing to do with moderation but with ignorance or that you dont have enghoug mony to pay an advocate :-). "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice": may be yes may be no. but i tend to no. thats another topic your talking about here or it will lead us to offtopics like the absolutism of liberty etc... and as babajou sayed (in an other way) i think that liberty is equivalent to resonsability or translate in rsponsability. if you have liberty you have a choice if you have a choice you have to assume the consequences of your choices.... anyway thank you too. and i apologized for thinking i can have a better idea than plato or whom else :-) (for all plato fans)
i want to say it again i m not against liberty of expression, there is really no need to be affraid of an attac against liberties or to feel (in this situation) that you are in the obligation to defend liberty of expression. I think the hole story is a mix of racism (racisme is not the approtriate word because of the word: race ==> racism but let s ignore i think you understand what i mean) and a search of publicity... so thats why ethics (wikipedia is build on ethics for example the free circulation of infos) tells us to be responsable in our beeing as a free person.
مبتدئ 04:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I Didn't write the Plato comment, just the Barry Goldwater one. I respect early philosophy, but I think it bears little into this conversation.--UltraSkuzzi 12:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: You say: "check anti racist laws check antisemitism laws." There are no laws in any Western country against saying racist or antisemitic things. In the U.S., for example, people publish anti-Jewish and racist newsletters all the time, and Mein Kampf (Hitler's book) is available in bookstores everywhere. I don't know where you get your information about the West, but it's simply wrong. Babajobu 04:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I get my information from my constitution and the laws of my country wich is a western country (to take your jargon) and wich is not the us (thanks god :-)). I gave you a litteral translation of the most famous article of my contitution:" the dignity of human beeing is untouchable". I m not speaking about the US. there tey are discussing wehther torture is leagal or not etc... so may the constitution and awareness about human rights their is not so well developped as here??? I think (but im not sure :sure to 80%) that the divulging of Mein Kampf leads to juridic consequence. I know the law so it s really useless to try to say that these laws dont exist and even if you repeat it 100000 times. I can only tell you i m saying what is written in the 2nd paragraph of my constitution and i think the 13 pragraph of the penal law. I didnt mention here international law wich can be interpreted in this sense :-). I know judgments where policemans was suspended because of racist comment. I dont Know Us very good but i think if you can judge a Mcdonald because you became fat or because your dog is dead while you tried to dry it in the microwave i think there is surly a law wich prohibit racism (or still the Blacks have to sit in a section a part in the bus: i dont think!!:-)) مبتدئ 05:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: if it s babajou who wrote the comment: i v seen your personal page, it explains why you did this comment. it s ok its your point of view, i only hope i can correct it some day :-). best regards. مبتدئ 06:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: contribution of مبتدئ

message: Everyone is forgetting that these images didnt start the whole controversy.  The paper commisioned them in response to Danish artist's fear of reprisals from Muslims for Islam related work.  The article that the cartoons surround speaks to artist's fear for their own safety after the murder of Theo Van Gogh etc.  Here is how the story should be broken down in my opinion.
  Islam Vs. West
    Islam Vs. Denmark
       Islam Vs. Danish Artists
           Islam Vs. Muhhomad Cartoons
              The cartoon itself
Oo7jeep 02:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  A better *caugh* split idea 

message: . We need to add this. Hmmm...where will they dispense all the aid money from, then? Babajobu 02:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People can vote in whichever leaders they like, but they can't assume other countries will love the leaders and want to give them money. Democracy means the right to vote for people who other countries will despise. Anyway, this is off-topic. Babajobu 04:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Added in. Swatjester 07:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: CNN: "Gunmen shut EU Gaza office over cartoons"

message: in the past there have been non-satirical depictions of Muhammad by Muslims.
Can someone please provide a citation for this statement (last part of opening paragraph). Pepsidrinka 02:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed that unsourced sentence and someone replaced it. But in Shia countries there are some pretty portrait-like images of Muhammad, no doubt. I have one. He looks like a superhero, Mr. Clean in a turban. Babajobu 02:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: There are two on the Muhammad page. Although I believe there was only one this morning. Both veiled.  --JGGardiner 02:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are pictures on the Muhammad page. But those pictures don't claim to be made by Muslims, and whether they are or not has no bearing. This statement is a very loaded claim in light of the world situation today, and its truthfullness should be cited. Pepsidrinka 02:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The captions for the pictures claim that one is Ottoman and the other implies that it is Ottoman or Persian.  --JGGardiner 03:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected. I probably should have read the captions, seeing how I was just over there moving pictures around. Nonetheless, I still hold that a citation be included in the article to justify the point in order to show the casual reader that Muslims in the past have created pictures. Pepsidrinka 03:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikimedia I think has a bunch of non-satirical pics of Muhammad under the Muhammad name, they were all created mostly long ago and by many different nations, maybe one was Islamic? Homestarmy 02:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Muslim pictures of Muhammad

message: Just read this at the BBC:
"In Jordan, an independent tabloid, al-Shihan, reprinted three of the cartoons on Thursday, saying people should know what they were protesting about.
In a separate article, the newspaper's editor, Jihad Momani, urged the world's Muslims to "be reasonable" in their response to the drawings.
The paper's publishers sacked him hours later over the "shock" he had caused, Jordan's official Petra news agency reported."
Is this worthy of inclusion? Until now I had not read of any Arab newspaper, even a "tabloid," reprinting any of the cartoons (or suggesting that Muslims "be reasonable"). 209.51.77.64 02:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Al Jazeera published the pics, although we're looking at them over someone's shoulder.  Babajobu 02:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah, I should have checked Al Jazeera. Still, I think the fact that any Arab papers are publishing the cartoons, even if they are over someone's shoulder, should be included in the article (once the protection is taken down). 209.51.77.64 03:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Al-Jazeera published the fakes from the private collections of imam Abu Laban & Co. BBC did too.   MX44 03:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Also Yemen Observer. Jacoplane 03:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jordan Paper Publishes Cartoons 

message: Can an admin ban 209.11.82.24? They switched out the image with a penis and this IP has a history of vandalism. Hitokirishinji 03:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He's already blocked, not by me. Babajobu 03:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  IP Ban 

message: I have reprotected the article due to the massive amount of vandalism that is still being directed at this page.  I realize it is an unusual and regrettable need due to the fact that it is a high traffic article and is an on again off again main page article but at least sprotection is really necessary to stop the vandalism and add a small amount of stability to the article. JtkieferT | C | @  ---- 03:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, even after a consensus, sadly, the page will still probably be vandalised. 209.11.82.24 was from a corporate address, I wonder if that company has any interest in an employee who likes to post pictures of penises rather than actaully working. Hitokirishinji 03:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If they're like most of the ISP's home users vandalize from I doubt it.  Of all the times I have heard of a vandal being reported to their provider only 7 or 8 to my knowledge have ended in any favorable response, now it's not even really worht trying, we just have to keep our eyes open and revert it as we see it and if the vandalism continues then block. JtkieferT | C | @  ---- 03:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, that's actually more or less the opposite; companies pay people to work, while home users pay ISPs to use the internet. Reporting them to the company might actually get some response (namely, that person being fired). Titanium Dragon 03:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  sprotected 

message: In all seriousness, is this an appropriate place to wonder whether Wikipedia (its systems and key personnel) have appropriate security measures or precautions in place? 203.198.237.30 04:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Don't worry, I'm well protected, as is my laptop. And I'm the only really key player on this site, so we're fine. Babajobu 04:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: * Well, I'm relatively unimportant, so don't worry about me.  And Jimbo has his fembots to defend him [link removed].  As far as firebombing silicon, well...  make sure you download a recent backup, and we should be relatively okay.  --Interiot 04:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia contigency planning 

message: We should have a link to the transcription of the Al-Arabiya interview with the Danish PM... : http://www.statsministeriet.dk/Index/dokumenter.asp?o=2&n=0&d=2508&s=1
Any opinions on where to put it.....? Kjaergaard 05:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Al-Arabiya interview with Danish PM 

message: User 216.248.124.126 has repeatedly vandalized this article by removing the top main image. This is the 3rd time, at least, despite being warned. Can an admin temp block his IP or something to prevent this from reoccuring please? AscendedAnathema 06:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: reported in violation of 3RR, just waiting for an admin to block this person.--KimvdLinde 06:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: 216.248.124.126 has been blocked by Gamaliel for the 3RR violation. NoSeptember talk 06:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism by user 216.248.124.126

message: This user has vandalized the Arabic language article twice, such as here. Not sure if that gets a person banned over here as well but it wasn't just a simple blanking; this usually results in an automatic ban over here. Mithridates 07:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  12.221.139.214 

message: For a brief period of time, a large part of the poll was deleted by user:212.138.47.24, a user who (if it is in fact one user) is responsible for several frivolous edits. I have now removed some lines that user:Slamdac added to the discussion in that connection as they are no more relevant.--Niels Ø 12:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poll deletion 

message: I made a first attempt on writing an article on Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press in Denmark (rather unwieldy title, I am afraid). It might be of interest for those who don't know about the law in Denmark, and those who do might want to help improve it. Rasmus (talk) 09:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press in Denmark

message: I think, the translation of the Danish "Muhammads ansigt" should be "The Vision of Muhammad" and not "The Face of Muhammad". ("ansight" means both)
(1) The pictures show the supposed vision (not so much the face): a vision of using bombs (and not a face using bombs), a vision of violently controlling women (and not a face violently controlling women), etc. The pictures depict this as the supposed vision by Muhammad.
(2) Also, the pictures themselves are a vision on Muhammed. The subject of the article is these pictures about Muhammadism, not the face of Muhammad. 
"Vision" is therefore the best litteral translation. 
It is also the most comprehensive translation, since the anger of Muslims is not about drawing the face of the prophet (true, it is not done to draw the prophet's face), but about the mockery of Islam. Many of the discussions above are completely pointless: they focus on the minor thing of drawing a face, while the major issue here is the mockery of the whole of Islam. (Even the few Muslims that are very well accostumned to drawings of the prophet are insulted by these Danish pictures)
-- ActiveSelective 09:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am afraid that "ansigt" really only can be translated as "face". "Vision" would be "syn" in Danish. Rasmus (talk) 09:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, "ansigt" means "face". Besides the literal meaning, it has a figurative sense, which is not "vision", but perhaps "surface", "appearance", "image", "what is shown to the world".--Niels Ø 09:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about the figural "the face of evil"? It is not about 'the face' of a devil or demon or... But "the face of evil" is about what evil (murder, war, torture) envisions. It is about the vision of evil. This is the way "face" is used here. Not litteral a face. -- ActiveSelective 10:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Vision" puts focus on how others see something; "ansigt" puts focus on what there is for others to see. Thus, "image" is a much better translation for the figurative sense of "ansigt".--Niels Ø 10:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Does not the word "face" have that same connotation, almost to the same degree as "ansigt"?DanielDemaret 10:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am Danish, not native English speaker, and I am not sure, but I think you are right: The literal translation "face" is best as it has both the literal and the figurative sense of "ansigt".--Niels Ø 10:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Vision", and not "Face" - title of Danish article 

message: Q&A: Depicting the Prophet Muhammad, BBC, 2 February 2006
This BBC article gives a good NPOV description of Islamic rules on the depiction of Mohammad that may be helpful in considerations of whether to have the image. Its interesting to note that Islamic tradition not only prohibits images of Allah and Muhammad but also all the major prophets of the Christian and Jewish traditions, which makes me wonder why no there hasn't been a fuss kicked up at the Jesus page. I don't think we should censor for reasons of religious sensitivity but I do think that we should show some consideration in the way we present an image that can be seen to promote religious hatred and racism. (I have voted to keep but move down)--JK the unwise 10:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Depicting the Prophet Muhammad