Talk:Kevin Cooper (prisoner)

message: The sole focus of this article seems to be the evidence that the man is potentially innocent, without mention of any evidence brought against him. GeeJo 01:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if you guys are talking about an earlier version of this article, but as it stands now my take is quite the opposite. All the specific facts in it are the ones that suggest his guilt. What was the basis of his conviction being postponed at the last minute -- something I believe is quite rare? Catsv 00:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking through the history, I find it bizarre that all the information about Cooper's potential innocence has been removed, with very little discussion here (there are some comments about there being too much about his innocence, but in the section below it seems that the statement from Joshua Ryen was added; I agree that that gives the article a 'guilty' slant). I'm going to put that info back in. In combination with the statement of Josh Ryen I think that makes a balanced article, but of course others are welcome to add other evidence of Cooper's guilt. Catsv 03:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

text: This article has a POV that he is guilty. There is a summary section which is fine, withstanding the line that "The results of those DNA tests and their significance are disputed." with only a link to a 'nodeathpenalty.org' hardly a non-parisan site. Secondly, there is a "disputed guilt" section, but there is section no presentation of evidence of guilt. Besides the first hand account (which is also disputed), the entire article is devoted to convincing the reader that there is substantial doubt. Barneygumble 22:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Imbalanced viewpoints?

message: I have done a major overhaul on the article as it was mostly filled with unsourced claims and hearsay. The overall tone of the article has been switched from one which seems to paint Kevin Cooper as completely innocent with only flimsy evidence to convict him...to one which is much more realistic and presents both the information behind the murders as well as the evidence presented against him. There's still got a lot of work left on it but I actually trimmed a lot of the fat and shortened the header and organized the page. If you have complaints about something I've removed please say why, but pretty much everything I removed was either unsourced or pure fabrication. BeardedScholar (talk) 19:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Complete overhaul

message: "Outside Cooper's trial the KKK and Aryan Nations conducted ritual lynchings."
wtf??? is this serious, can someone delete this, i see no sources..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.54.175.22 (talk) 03:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: why is this in article?

message: I disagree with the suggestion that this article primarily portrays Cooper as potentially innocent. I'd say the first hand account of survivor Joshua Ryen (in bold print) is pretty conclusively suggesting that the man is anything but innocent.
:I agree, I also interpreted the article as framing Cooper as guilty.  The inclusion of evidence in the case would be helpful.
::Just as a note, that first hand account wasnt on the article when I made the comment. I'd agree it presents its case a bit more thoroughly now :) GeeJo (t) (c) •  23:45, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sole Purpose? 

message: Since the comment about the jury being "all-white" was removed, I think it's prudent to ask what the makeup of the jury was. If it was indeed all-white then that must be noted, since it would be an important part of Cooper's defence. -RomeW
:All reports I have seen indicate that it was indeed all-white.Catsv 06:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Jury Composition?

message: There was plenty of it.
Cooper admitted to hiding out in a vacant house next door to the Ryens. 
At the vacant house, a blood-stained khaki green button identical to the buttons on field jackets issued at the state prison from which Cooper escaped was found on the rug. 
Tests revealed the presence of blood in the shower and bathroom sink of the vacant home, and hair found in the bathroom sink was consistent with that of Jessica and Doug Ryen. 
A bloodstained rope in the house bedroom was similar to a bloodstained rope found on the Ryens' driveway. 
A hatchet covered with dried blood and human hair that was found near the Ryens' home was missing from the vacant house, and the sheath for the hatchet was found in the bedroom where Cooper stayed. 
Buck knives and at least one ice pick were also missing from the vacant home, though a strap from one buck knife was found on the floor. 
Blood found in the Ryens' home was the victims', except for one drop on a wall near where the murders occurred. It belonged to an African-American male, which Cooper is. 
Two partial shoe prints and one nearly complete shoe print found in the Ryens' house were consistent both with Cooper's size and the Pro Ked shoes issued at CIM. 
The Ryens' vehicle, which had been parked outside their house, was missing when the bodies were discovered but was later found in Long Beach. 
A hand-rolled cigarette butt and "Role-Rite" tobacco that is provided to inmates at CIM (but not sold at retail) was in the car. 
Similar loose leaf tobacco was found in the bedroom of the house where Cooper had stayed. 
A witness testified that Cooper smoked handrolled cigarettes using Role-Rite tobacco. 
A hair fragment discovered in the car was consistent with Cooper's pubic hair and a spot of blood found in the car could have come from one of the victims but not from Cooper.
  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.175.72.235 (talk) 04:40, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article should include the evidence used against him 

message: :Image:KevinCooper Mugshot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 14:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:KevinCooper Mugshot.jpg

message: Under that heading one of the items mentioned is about demonstrations against him being held outside of the courthouse and an instance of a toy gorilla hung in effigy, supposedly representing Cooper. But it fails to mention how this fact disputes his guilt. Sounds to me like quite the opposite. I'm thinking maybe the toy gorilla effigy helps in his defense that he was framed by racists? But I don't think it's trying to say that the ones demonstrating outside are actually the ones who framed him. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something here?
Response: The racist demonstrations outside the court neither dispute nor affirm his guilt. They do show that the trial was conducted in an environment hostile to the defendant -- an environment that may have made it impossible for the defendant to get a fair trial, even imagining that a Black man accused of a brutal murder of white people could ever get a fair trial, unless he had O.J. Simpson's millions of dollar for lawyers and investigators to match the millions of dollars generally available to prosecutors when they need it. Aarons510 (talk) 04:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Disputed guilt?

message: In my opinion, this article should also mention Cooper v. Brown, 565 F.3d 581 (9th Cir. 2009). In fact, an enthusiastic and detail-oriented Wikipedia contributor should probably go through this opinion in detail and do what is necessary to correct the factual statements in this article. Cooper v. Brown contains a 114 page dissent by Judge William Fletcher which discusses in detail the evidence for and against Cooper's conviction. Fletcher's dissent is based on the evidence which was brought out at the trial, and is also based on evidence which was found and submitted in the numerous appellate hearings that have taken place since then. Notably, Fletcher's dissent contains many factual assertions which are part of the trial record and which conflict from some of the information which is contained in Wikipedia's Kevin Cooper article. For example, a contributor to the Wikipedia article has included the statement that "Roper stated that she learned this information [regarding the bloody overalls] through a vision during a trance, and she had no other reason to suspect her boyfriend." This statement actually has a citation (there aren't very many in this article), however the link leads to a rather dubious website that itself does not substantiate or cite any source material for the claim that Ms. Roper was in a trance and had no other reason. On the other hand, Fletcher's opinon goes into great detail about Ms. Roper, and includes her testimony to investigators. There is no mention whatsoever of a trance: Roper stated that she saw her boyfriend, Lee Furrow, come into their shared residence late at night, wearing overalls (rather than the beige shirt he had worn earlier in the day). According to Roper's statements, the overalls were covered in blood, and Lee Furrow quickly changed clothes, leaving the overalls on the floor, and then left the house on his motorcycle. Roper's statements were substantiated by other witnesses. In fact, if Roper had been in a trance and had no other reason to believe that Furrow was connected to the crime, one wonders where she got the bloody overalls which she gave to the police. I don't have the time to write an exhaustive Wikipedia article, but I certainly hope that someone who does have the time will go through this one, check the sources, and read Cooper v. Brown.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.175.72.235 (talk) 04:43, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Article Cites Unreliable Sources and Could Be Improved if Someone Takes the Time to Review the Publicly Available Court Records 

message: [Excerpt, with page numbers in brackets, from:]
The Death Penalty: Where Do We Go From Here?
Gonzaga University School of Law
Justin L. Quackenbush Inaugural Lecture
William A. Fletcher
April 12, 2010
[...]
I will begin with police investigation. The case I am about to describe is horrible in many ways. The murders were horrible. Kevin Cooper, the man now sitting on death row, may well be — and in my view probably is — innocent. And he is on death row because the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department framed him. You can find my dissent from our failure to take this case en banc at 565 F.3d 581 (9th Cir. 2009).
On the morning of June 5, 1983, a father came to the semi-rural home in Chino Hills, California, where his son had spent the night as an overnight guest. He found the mother and father, their daughter, and his own son dead, killed during the night. They had been chopped with a hatchet, sliced with a knife or knives, and stabbed with an ice-pick or ice-picks. The son of the dead mother and father, Josh Ryan, had been left for dead, but he survived. His throat had been cut. The family station wagon was gone. The mother’s purse was in plain sight on the kitchen counter, but no money had been taken.
The San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department Deputies who responded to the call, decided almost immediately who was the likely killer. Kevin Cooper had escaped two days earlier from a nearby minimum security prison by walking across [13] an open field. He had hidden out in the house next door, 125 yards away, for two days. He had repeatedly called two women friends from this house, asking for money to help with his escape. They had refused. Cooper testified at trial that he had left his hideout house as soon as it got dark on June 4, and had hitchhiked to Mexico. We know that Cooper checked in to a hotel in Tijuana at 4:30 on the afternoon of June 5. Tijuana is about 50 miles south of Chino Hills. The family station wagon was discovered several days later in a church parking lot in Long Beach, California, about 100 miles west of Chino Hills.
Eight-year-old Josh was “interviewed” at the hospital by a clinical social worker. Because his throat had been cut, he could not talk. He pointed to letters and numbers on a clipboard, indicating that there had been 3 or 4 killers, and that they had been white. Cooper is black. During his stay in the hospital, Josh twice saw a picture of Cooper on the television. Both times, he said that Cooper was not one of the killers. A Sheriff’s Department Deputy interviewed Josh at the hospital after the social worker and got him to change his story so that he no longer said that three or four white men had done it. Eventually, Josh said that he had seen a black man with a great “poof” of hair standing over his parents’ bed. At the time of the killing, Cooper had had his hair in cornrows. At the time of his arrest six months later — which was widely shown on television — he had his hair in an Afro. [14]
During the next day or so, Sheriff’s Department deputies “discovered” — I use the word in quotation marks — a bloody button from a prison-issue jacket in the house where Cooper had been hiding out. They discovered it in the middle of the floor of an empty bedroom that had previously been searched. The Sheriff’s Department later learned that the prison jacket Cooper had been wearing had had buttons of a different color. Deputies also “discovered” footprints in the murder house and the hideout house that supposedly matched prison-issue tennis shoes that are not sold on the open market. But they managed not to respond to a telephone call from the prison Warden who said that, after inquiry at the prison, she had learned that such special shoes where not worn in her prison. And they managed not to pass on to Cooper and his lawyers the fact that the prison Warden had called them.
On June 9, a woman named Diana Roper called the Sheriff’s Department to tell them that her boyfriend, Lee Furrow, had come home in the early hours on the night of June 4. He arrived in an unfamiliar station wagon with some people who stayed in the car. He changed out of his overalls, which he left on the floor of a closet. He was not wearing a t-shirt that he had been wearing earlier in the day. He left the house after about five minutes and did not return. Roper called her father the next day to come look at the overalls. They both concluded that the overalls [15] were spattered with blood. Roper turned the overalls over to the Sheriff’s Department and told the deputy that she thought Furrow was involved in the murders. Roper later provided an affidavit stating that a bloody t-shirt found beside the road leading from the murder house had been Furrow’s. It was a Fruit-of-the- Loom t-shirt with a breast pocket. Roper stated that she recognized it because she had bought it for him. She also stated that a bloody hatchet found beside the road matched a hatchet that was now missing from her garage.
Furrow had been released from state prison a year earlier. He had been part of a murderous gang, but had been given a short sentence in return for turning state’s evidence against the leader of the gang. The leader was sentenced to death. Furrow told friends that while he was part of the gang he killed a girl, cut up her body, and thrown her body parts into the Kern River. The Sheriff’s Department never tested the overalls for blood, never turned them over to Cooper or his lawyers, and threw them away in a dumpster on the day of Cooper’s arraignment.
Cooper has maintained his innocence from the beginning. Long after his conviction — by which time DNA testing had become available — he sought DNA testing of blood on the t-shirt. The DNA testing showed Cooper’s blood on the tshirt. Cooper claimed that the only way his blood could be on the t-shirt was that it had been planted by the authorities. The Sheriff’s Department had taken blood [16] from him at the time of his arrest and had put it in a vial containing a preservative. Cooper asked that the blood on the t-shirt be tested for the presence of the preservative. I will not delay you by recounting the way in which this testing was bungled. I will say only the following. During the testing process, the Sheriff’s Department inadvertently sent to one of the labs a sample of blood from the vial containing Cooper’s blood. The lab was startled to discover that this sample contained the DNA of two people — Cooper and one other person. Remember the trick of the teenager who takes whiskey from his parents’ bottle, and who then adds something to the bottle to bring it back up to the right level.
There is more, but you get the idea. What happened is a familiar story. It is by no means the usual story. But it happens often enough to be familiar. The police are under heavy pressure to solve a high profile crime. They know, or think they know, who did the crime. And they plant evidence to help their case along. By the time Diana Roper called the Sheriff’s Department a few days after the murder, eight-year-old Josh had been persuaded that he had been wrong about the three or four white men. (Josh decided later that the murderer had had a “poof” of hair.) The bloody button had been “discovered.” And the and the footprints in the two houses had been “discovered.” The bloody coveralls were, to say the least, inconvenient. So they were thrown away
[End of excerpt]
The full lecture can be found at http://www.savekevincooper.org/Scripts/DataLibraries/upload/GONZAGA%20Lecture.pdf.
I think this summary by a Federal Judge who has intensively studied the case shows that the article as it stands at this time is so biased against Cooper as to constitute -- please excuse the pun! -- a hatchet job. it would be far better to have no article at all until a fair one can be written.
--Aarons510 (talk) 12:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Aarons510, I agree that the article needs some work to bring it to a neutral point of view. Thanks, CordeliaNaismith (talk) 07:07, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

text: Aarons510, I disagree. Fletcher wrote an extended dissent to the refusal of the Ninth Circuit to rehear en banc. That means that (1) the panel decision upholding the district court's decision to deny the writ stands and (2) a majority of Ninth Circuit judges refused to rehear the case. Fletcher's opinion isn't even a dissent to the panel decision, but a dissent to a en banc rehearing. It is what it is and it's mentioned in the article, but it has no real legal value. To give Fletcher's opinion more space in the article would make the article unbalanced.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

text: That's incorrect: "The full court was advised of the petition for rehearing en banc. A judge requested a vote on whether to hear the matter en banc. The matter failed to receive a majority of the votes of the nonrecused active judges in favor of en banc consideration." Also, your most recent edits are WP:OR, WP:UNDUE, and non-neutral. I've removed them.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Here's what Federal Appeals Court Judge William A. Fletcher said in a lecture to a law school. 

message: I've added a cite and some material. The article seems to balance the arguments for and against Cooper's conviction, and cites to the major judicial opinions on both sides. Is there any objection to removing the tag? THF (talk) 15:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added some more material, and rearranged the sections.  Since I see from your user page that you're a lawyer, I'd appreciate if you would look over the material I've added for accuracy & neutrality. I have no objection to removing the NPOV tag.  Thanks, CordeliaNaismith (talk) 15:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've also done some editing, including some clarifications about legal issues and some rewordings. I haven't read everything yet to make sure the assertions conform to the sources, but I haven't seen anything thus far to indicate any POV or bias. Absent objections to specific material, the tag may be removed.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV tag

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: During his dissent Fletcher accuses Judge Huff of deliberately ignoring the Ninth Circuit's instructions, saying “The district court failed to provide Cooper a fair hearing and flouted our direction to perform the two tests.” 
Among others he says she denied the defense any say in selecting the portions of the t shirt were to be tested, ignoring that three of the alleged control samples had DNA in them (which essentially rendered her findings erroneous), and purposely limiting Mitochondrial testing to hairs that had already been tested even though by her own expert's admission there were numerous hairs that had NOT been tested (which doomed the testing from the start) while also refusing to allow inquiry into why Cooper's blood vial had more than one person's blood in it.. He also argued that Gary Siuzdak's refusal to submit his notes to verify his contamination claims were deceptive. Judge Pamela Rymer seemed to express extreme anger at these accusations.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.61.201 (talk) 20:42, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fletcher's accusations 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I added info that was present in the dissent by Judge Fletcher (the fact that an officer had lied about entering the room where Cooper had slept before it had officially been searched), and by Judge McKeown (an officer lied about the fact he had considered the coveralls of value). I also added how a social worker contradicted the state's theory at trial by saying that Josh had specified that the attackers were NOT Mexican (which contradicted the state's theory that Josh was confused  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.61.201 (talk) 08:00, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added new information 

message: I made the following edit but it was reverted. 
 The Supreme Court of California affirmed Cooper’s conviction in 1991.
 "The evidence of guilt was extremely strong. Many items of circumstantial evidence pointed to defendant's guilt. Some alone were quite compelling; others less so. In combination, the evidence established defendant's guilt 
 overwhelmingly... It is utterly unreasonable to suppose that by coincidence, some hypothetical real killer chose this night and this locale to kill; that he entered the Lease house just after defendant left to retrieve the murder 
 weapons, leaving the hatchet sheath in the bedroom defendant used; that he returned to the Lease house to shower; that he drove the Ryen station wagon in the same direction defendant used on his way to Mexico; and that he happened 
 to wear prison issue tennis shoes like those of defendant, happened to have defendant's blood type, happened to have hair like defendant's, happened to roll cigarettes with the same distinctive prison issue tobacco, and so forth. 
 Defendant sought to discredit or minimize each of these items of evidence, but the sheer volume and consistency of the evidence is overwhelming."
Procedural history
Readers should know that the California Supreme Court ruled on the case. That is vital procedural history. Even if you want to take the blockquote out at least allow the page to say "The Supreme Court of California affirmed Cooper’s conviction in 1991."
Blockquote
Readers should know why the court ruled the way it did. The quote cited explains exactly that. 
In all honesty, it seems to me like people are using this page to promote their idea that Cooper is innocent. This page should give a balanced take on the crime and not an activist pro-Cooper take. If you don't like the way the court ruled, that's fine. But that doesn't make their ruling and the reasoning behind it less significant or less deserving to be in the article. You personal opinion based on your support for Cooper does not override the the opinion of experienced California Supreme Court justices.
LaraGingerbread (talk) 23:08, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted several edits by this IP user. I have no opinion on the case, nor on the innocence or guilt of Kevin Cooper, but that IP user's edits were completely unacceptable. Disagreeing with the court, or believing that the court "got it wrong" does not change what the court said. Perhaps  can explain why they thought your additions were not relevant. -drt1245 (talk) 23:35, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: California Supreme Court Ruling

message: The article has an entire section dedicated to the possible manipulation of evidence. To make the page more balanced I am creating a section about the evidence against him. It doesn't make any sense to have a section about manipulation of evidence without first discussing what that evidence is. If you disagree with something in here address it in the Possible manipulation of evidence section. Evidence against him that got him convicted is EXTREMELY important, especially given the controversy surrounding his conviction.LaraGingerbread (talk) 00:23, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Evidence section

message: I am deleting suggestions of Furrow's guilt. He has never been convicted of the crime. Wikipedia is not a place to promote slanderous conspiracy theories.
: With this revision, you are removing properly cited research from a legal expert. You are doing exactly what you have been complaining about, removing text that does not support your view. -drt1245 (talk) 01:11, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Furrow

message: I feel like this article is a bit imbalanced, but I would like some feedback before making any significant changes.
Here are some examples: 
* The article begins with: "Kevin Cooper is an African American man currently on death row at San Quentin Prison." I'm not sure that this really holds much significance to the subject of bias, but I don't think it's exactly necessary to identify him by his race as opposed to nationality, unless race is a big issue here.
* The sections about the possible manipulation of evidence and Lee Furrow as an alternate suspect are noticeably longer than anything about the actual crime that Cooper was convicted of or his trial. I understand that a lot of people believe that Cooper is innocent, and I am willing to entertain that idea, but the way it is worded seems to suggest that Cooper is definitley innocent, when in fact his innocence is still contested. Plus, I think it would be good to pare these two sections down or edit them to provide balanced info.
* Back to the lead section, it identifies Cooper as a 'man.' Cooper is a convict, and was previously convicted of lesser crimes (theft, burglary). I feel that it would be more appropriate to identify him as something other than a 'man.'
I would welcome any feedback before I make any significant edits. Comitialbulb561 (talk) 16:01, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that identifying Kevin Cooper by race is not necessary and also it can be misleading since mentioning it can suggest that he was framed by police because he was African American but I wouldn't be so sure about your claim that he should be identified "as something other than a 'man'". It feels like you think that him being a man is less important than him being a convict, which I disaggre. Kuraczan (talk) 19:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased?