Talk:Florida State Road 913

message: In light of the research stated on the FSR discussion page, the length that's stated here was that of the original configuration.  We need to update this to include the length of the causeway and (to be consistent with USDOT) Crandon Boulevard.  B.Wind 03:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The GIS data is very clear. This PDF, produced from the GIS data, shows it. --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 06:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does it show the termini of SR 913 - or even if SR 913 exists? I have yet to see a definitive statement from FDOT stating the termini of SR 913.  You claim that your map shows it "clearly," yet I don't even see a reference to it on your map. 147.70.242.39 23:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's in the Miami inset - see the little black line peeking out from under US 1? Alternately, download the GIS data and a free GIS viewer. --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 23:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The map is less than convincing, to say the least. In fact, the map doesn't even identify it as SR 913. You still have yet to provide a source that definitively states a southern terminus of SR 913. B.Wind 06:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: THE FUCKING GIS DATA. DOWNLOAD A GIS VIEWER AND THE STATE ROAD LAYER. --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 06:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have - and your "reference" is useless for proving your contention.  I ask you again: do you have another reference for your assertion, one that states definitively that SR 913 ends at the toll booth (despite the multiple sources to the contrary) and one from a source that does not contradict itself (as FDOT occasionally does regarding south Florida State Roads)? B.Wind 13:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the absence of any other reliable sources for an internal FDOT designation, the GIS data will have to do. None of your sources are reliable. --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 14:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems that your bias has gone far than beyond reasonable, considering that at least two of "his" sources include two official FDOT maps as well.  The case has been made over and over again that you need to provide a source that doesn't contradict itself (and FDOT does with regularity), but, hey, perhaps this argument is less about truth and more about ego, hmmmmm? Look at the total picture objectively and not simply through the eyes of your heroes. They are human. Convince me that they are stating that, contrary to multiple sources, including some from local governments, that the information from FDOT is incompatible with the information that has been represented on the State Road 913 (Florida) page before you revert it once again.  Otherwise all you're doing is playing around. 147.70.242.39 23:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those "official" FDOT maps were produced by Gousha, and are thus not so official. Please get a source from FDOT that indicates SR 913 going over the causeway, or I will continue to remove your bull. --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 02:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then we are at an impasse as it is clear that you are unwilling to consider beyond the two useless "references" that you have provided and you are unwilling (or unable) to provide any reference from a non-self-conflicting source supporting your position (of SR 913 not extending beyond the toll booths after 1996). I shall continue to revert your reversions until you show a definitive declaration as my references clearly - and repeatedly - show that it has. Also, as several other editors have repeatedly told you, removal of references is vandalism, and as far as I'm concerned, your continued reversions of Rickenbacker Causeway are in bad faith. Please stop marking it in the same manner as a dog marks its territory. B.Wind 04:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Length of SR 913 

message: In the U.S. state of Florida, State Road has several related meanings:
#A road maintained by the Florida Department of Transportation (including Florida's Turnpike Enterprise) or a "regional transportation commission" (expressway/toll road authority). (FDOT defines the "State Highway System")
#A road signed as a State Road (or a U.S. Highway or Interstate Highway). (This is what the public mostly sees, unless they are dealing with maintenance, like calling to have a pothole fixed.)
#(claimed by B.Wind, but apparently incorrect) A road under the jurisdiction of the Florida Highway Patrol.
For the most part, 2 is a subset of 1 (the difference is mostly short connector routes and interchange ramps that are internally designated the same number as the road they connect to, as well as some unsigned routes). There are a few pieces of routes that are signed as State Roads but are locally maintained - State Road 15 in downtown Orlando is an example. Additionally, some locally-owend toll bridges are signed as parts of routes.
As for 3, B.Wind claims this is another meaning, The Florida Statutes include the following:
:The patrol officers under the direction and supervision of the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles shall perform and exercise throughout the state the following duties, functions, and powers:
::(1) To patrol the state highways and regulate, control, and direct the movement of traffic thereon
However, it also includes the following:
::to enforce all laws now in effect regulating and governing traffic, travel, and public safety upon the public highways and providing for the protection of the public highways and public property thereon
Note "public highways" rather than "state highways". An email to the FHP confirmed this:
:The Florida Highway Patrol has jurisdiction on every road in the State.
:Thank you for your email.
:Sincerely,
:Florida Highway Patrol
:Office of Public Affairs
State Road 913 is not a signed route, so it fails criterion 2. As per criterion 1, FDOT GIS data and pavement management reports indicate that the northern approach to the Rickenbacker Causeway, running from the toll booth north to Interstate 95, is state-maintained as SR 913. The causeway itself is owned and operated by Miami-Dade County. Thus, according to criterion 1, only the north approach is SR 913.
B.Wind (or his friend) claims the following reasons for the causeway being part of SR 913: (See Talk:State Road 913 (Florida).)
#He has seen agreements that enable the FHP to patrol the length of the causeway, so it is part of SR 913.
#"Official State Transportation Maps" (and commercially-sold maps) place an SR 913 marker on the Causeway itself. I can confirm that this is true on a 2001 map; my 1995-96 map shows no SR 913 at all.
#The FHWA lists it as SR 913 in a listing of "Active FHWA Toll Facility Agreements".
Now my rebuttal of these points:
#As above, FHP jurisdiction does not imply State Road status. Even if it did in general, there could be a special contract between the county and the FHP for patrolling the causeway; this should not magically transfer State Road status to the causeway. (Think of what would happen if the northern approach was not a State Road. There would be no number to assign to the causeway without a document somewhere assigning it. Such a document would be proof that the causeway is SR 913.)
#The "Official State Transportation Maps" are labeled "Cartographic Updates and Map Design by: LyonsMediaGroup.com", and were formerly prepared by H.M. Gousha (which has gone out of business). They are thus secondary or tertiary sources, and it shows in the number of errors that directly conflict with FDOT. For instance, SR 5A is shown north of Jacksonville, when it is no longer a State Road. SR 948 is on what has always (since the current numbers were assigned in 1945) been SR 25. CR 528A is shown on what has been signed recently by FDOT as CR 506. SR 2 is shown west of Jacksonville on what has been a county road since the 1980s. Using these non-reliable sources will introduce numerous errors into Wikipedia.
#This is a tertiary source, in that someone compiled the list and then labeled the road with their apparent numbers. It is doubtful that the contract included the number, and even if it did, (1) it is from 1993, before the supposed extension of SR 913 over the causeway, and (2) the description includes the piece from the toll booth north to US 1, which is undeniably part of SR 913 (as it is state-maintained).
Two final notes:
#I emailed FDOT asking if they had any source indicating the south end of SR 913. I never got a response.
#I do admit the possibility that the causeway is SR 913. But none of the available sources confirm this. I would favor a wording like "FDOT maintains the northern approach as SR 913" (in the causeway article - there's no need for two separate articles) without a clear statement of south end (outside the State Road infobox).
--SPUI (T - C) 12:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A bulletproof argument...

message: This is an "argument" by someone who is attempting to assert his "I'm above WP policy because I am right" argument when in fact it doesn't hold water.
All this time, he has yet to produce one piece of evidence indicating that the southern end of SR 913 is the Rickenbacker Causeway toll booth, despite the several references that have been provided not only showing that the current alignment of SR 913 extends to Key Biscayne, but also when the extension to the island occurred. 
His argument of "the FDOT maps are not FDOT maps" is nonsense at every level, as they are printed, presented, paid for, and distributed by the State of Florida as an official state document - unless the presentation has changed for 2006, it's mentioned with the cost of printing the map on the document itself - and since it also states on the cover "Florida Department of Transportation," that makes it an official FDOT document. Therefore it must be accepted as such.
In addition, relying upon just one source - and one that is often self-contradictory, particularly in some parts of Florida - is asking for trouble in the error department. When human beings are involved, error will always creep into the equation; that's why we look at more than one source for verification, whether it be for the existence or nonexistence of a particular road... or, for that matter, where that road is located.
SPUI's citation of SR 948 being on NW 36th Street east of Okeechobee Road is a classic example. It had been shown in one source; subsequent sources revealed that location to be in error. It happens, but that's why we should be double-sourcing (or more) these things. Both B.Wind and SPUI have made similar errors over the past year - as have I in my limited editing last spring - but that's why we're supposed to verify the articles and assume good faith without getting involved in lame edit wars on four, five, or even six fronts  (such as the idiotic one regarding the southern terminus of Interstate 95 in Hialeah).
Regarding SR 913/Rickenbacker Causeway, since there is a preponderance of evidence indicating that the articles are accurate, we can - and should - keep them that way... and separate. Clearly the two items are not one and the same, even if SR 913 stops at the toll booth. The articles can be updated and/or merged when we get concrete evidence (and not the 2006 Rand McNally, which falsely shows no SR 913 whatsoever but a CR 913) indicating otherwise.
And it's just as well that FDOT didn't respond to the request for a letter: it would have been OR, and there is far too much of that in the Florida State Roads articles, most notably the ones with exit lists and the history of the roads. Perhaps instead of denying information that was supported by references supplied by a different editor, we should do our best to try to confirm the given information with new references - and amend the articles as evidence to the contrary arise.
That, my friends, is assuming good faith and being constructive, as we should be working toward a common goal instead of attacking each other. That's the way to improve Wikipedia. 147.70.242.40 22:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ... is really no argument at all

message: SW 1 Avenue to the Rickenbacker Causeway toll plaza.
Thank you.
                                                                           
             SPUI                                                          
             <drspui@gmail.com                                             
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                                       jeffrey.dodge@dot.state.fl.us       
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What are the limits of State Road 913? Thanks.
--SPUI (T - C) 17:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Letter from Jeffrey Dodge of [[FDOT]]

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thread_title:  External links modified