Talk:Cunning folk in Britain

message: "Cunning folk are frequently confused with witches. The key difference between the two is that cunning folk were real, whereas there is no evidence that witches existed outside the imagination of those who believed they had been afflicted by them" 
Um, no? 
:"The spells and magic services offered by cunning folk were strictly speaking against the doctrines of the Catholic Church."
That's nice and all, but England was Protestant for all of the period in which good information on cunning men/women is available.  But Protestantism barely shows up in the article.  Bacchiad 08:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Triumph of the Moon (TOTM) has a good roundup of British cunning folk in the 18th and 19th centuries. Including the "last" traditional wise woman said to have dies in the 1930s and to have been in many ways the very stereotype of a witch. She surely deserves a mention by name. TOTM mentions the wise woman in Under the Greenwood Tree but doesn't mention the Cunning Man in Tom Brown's School Days; these figures from realistic fiction probably also should be included.
:I'd be cautious about including Hutton's analysis of the state of cunning craft, though, since he pretty much contradicts all his sources, characterising the cunning tradition as being composed of a few individuals largely isolated from each other, with methods that differ widely, and learning their craft out of subscription almanacs from London, so that the cunning craft phenomenon cannot be related to any earlier "witchcraft"-like tradition. In fact the authors on whose research he relies characterise the cunning craft tradition as longstanding and widespread, with in some areas as many cunning folk as Christian clergy (sometimes they were clergy), and with a lot of similarity between methods. (Alan Macfarlane, Owen Davies). E. William Monter even makes a comparison between the methods of English cunning folk and French "white witches" and finds remarkable similarities in their methods, suggesting a very widespread and well established tradition. This all flies in the face of Hutton, who is at pains to paint cunning craft as a minor and recent phenomenon (from memory, I believe he doesn't mention any cunning folk before the 18th century) and to distinguish it as being entirely different and opposed to witchcraft, going to such lengths that he even translates the Italian "stregheria" as "cunning craft", and berates Leland for referring to "witchcraft"! Contemporary sources, as quoted by Macfarlane, Cohn and Thomas, commonly used the term "white witch" or just "witch" for cunning folk, and Eva Pocs clearly demonstrates (Between the Living and the Dead) that "witchcraft" and "anti-witchcraft" are quite often exactly the same thing seen through different eyes.
:Basically Hutton departs dramatically from the consensus of his academic peers, and only manages to do so by limiting what evidence he discusses. This is symptomatic of most of the book, but I won't go on... Suffice it to say, don't rely on Hutton alone! Fuzzypeg☻ 21:27, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Exciting! I've started adding details from Wilby's excellent book Cunning Folk and Familiar Spirits. I've only added a little bit so far (probably enough already to stir up some controversy though!), but it's 2:30am now and I need some sleep. I'll probably try to add some more before I get stuck into rearranging and careful rationalisation of the sections. The info is roughly in the right place so far, and once we have a bit more we'll be able to see better what we've got to work with. If anyone has complimentary (or contrasting) sources and wants to add in another perspective, that would be great! I don't have Davies, Thomas or Macfarlane in front of me so I'm pretty much a one-book man at the moment. All the best, and good night! Fuzzypeg★ 14:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: New Emma Wilby material

message: I just deleted the no references tag, as it is no longer true. Referencing could be improved of course....Jeremy (talk) 01:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: References tag

message: "The term white witch was infrequently used for cunning folk until recent times, except in the county of Devon."
Why not in Devon?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.171.206.112 (talk) 20:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Dunno. Alan Macfarlane in Witchcraft in Tudor and Stuart England provides several examples of contemporary sources talking about "white witches", and they don't all come from Devon. Perhaps the word 'infrequently' used here is only meant to be taken in a mild sense, i.e. not to be read as 'rarely'. Macfarlane includes an appendix t(Appendix 2?) hat discusses the various terms used. Fuzzypeg★ 23:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: DEVON

message: This article needs expanding to cover more than just the British Isles. As it is this article implies that "cunning folk" are only found in Britain, or that they are an originally, or mostly British phenomenon or that all the traditions of them whether English, Welsh, Scots et cetera all derive from the same (sub-)tradition rather than being part of a greater European tradition (and arguably beyond).
I shall be expanding this article soon so that it is less UK-centric and covers the tradition(s) as a whole rather than presenting a biased and incorrect version of history (as is too often the case). Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 10:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Cunning folk is a redirect here. As this article is titled Cunning folk in Britain I'm not sure why it needs other mythologies in it. If it does then the page would need moving to a better title. I think a better idea would be to take the Cunning folk redirect and turn it into a general article. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 13:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article should be expanded to cover more than Britain 

message: Hello all. I've recently been revamping and adding to this page, based upon the works of Ronald Hutton, Owen Davies and Emma Wilby (I hope that you like the improvements), but am a bit stumped when it comes to discussing the legality and nature of the cunning craft in Scotland during the Early Modern period, when it was of course a political and national entity independent from England and Wales. Does anyone who specialises in Scottish magic know of any good academic sources that discuss this? Many thanks (Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've obtained a copy of Joyce Miller's Magic and Witchcraft in Scotland (2004), and plan to use it as a basis for some of the information in the Scottish section, but it is not exactly an academic text, but a work of popular history that even lacks a bibliography. If anyone knows of a better source of information it is vitally needed here.(Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scotland in the Early Modern period 

message: I'm portuguese and never heard this term. I´ve heard "mulher astuta"- cunning woman, "mulher de virtude" - woman of virtue and "curandeiro" - healer. What is the source for the term "saludadores"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.155.209 (talk) 23:52, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is page 163 of Owen Davies' academic study of English cunning-folk, as was cited in the article. Where he got it from I have no idea, as he does not go into depth looking at continental European cunning folk. It is important to bear in mind that saludadores may well have been a term that was used in the Early Modern period but which has long since died out in popular usage, hence why you yourself have never heard of it. Without any knowledge of Portuguese magical customs I'm afraid I can't help you any more than that, perhaps try a Goodle search ? (Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:03, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  saludadores 

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