Talk:Comfort women/Archive 1

message: http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/backlash/whydowesue.html#02 
Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery
in 2000 reviewed the existing evidence up to that date and heard testimony in line with international law, took 1 year to review the evidence and render a verdict. one can note criticisms of the tribunal, but it has been widely reviewed and considered sound by UN agencies and international law experts. 
Its also part of the ongoing debate not least because NHK self-censored a program about it in response to pressure from right-wing groups and 'general comments' by now Prime Minister Abe. in case anyone wants to contest this too: This was proven in recent court trial, and in fact Abe admits he made the comments and was invited to talk to NHK execs about it, but he says this was not a censorship attempt.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070307a6.html
www.japantimes.co.jp/weekly/ed/ed20070210a1.htm
the verdict was published also in asahi and mainichi newspapers on jan 30 this year.
- an article from the 'left' point of view, but well referenced: http://www.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/879825.shtml
It is kind of strange to have left this out here. seems like the efforts at getting teh information suppressed are continuing here at wikipedia!
- harvard asian quarterly article on the censorship issue by a scholar involved in the program
http://www.asiaquarterly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=110&Itemid=5
Crabclaw 11:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I bet User Ikedanobuo is a double agent working for countries hostile to Japan, perhaps North Korea. He is really trying to make Japan look ugly.220.76.64.71 12:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Women's Tribunal and other Efforts at Redress Section missing

message: 2003 reports to the UN Convention on the Elimination of all forms of violence against women: http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/29sess.htm:
1. Japanese government official report p.16 details japanese official efforts at "atonement":
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N98/355/16/IMG/N9835516.pdf?OpenElement
2. shadow report criticizing the governmental efforts in detail by NGO VAWW-net: 
http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/whats_new/shadow_report_CEDAW.PDF
"The Judges of the Tribunal also noted that Japan remains under a continuing obligation to acknowledge and disclose the truth of crimes against humanity and war crimes, and that it had not fulfilled this obligation in regards to the ‘comfort women.'"  
- VAWW-net homepage: http://www1.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan/english/
Crabclaw 11:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: other Sources of Information missing

message: Yoshida's story was denied by a journalist 許栄善 of Cheju Sinmun(済州新聞) on August 14, 1989. According to that report, 
::Coming the 44th years of liberation, the record, that the 205 women of Cheju Island were taken out to the comfort women in Japanese colony age, was published, and is given a big impact. However, there is no testimony of support and it produces a sensation.
::(Omission)
::Inhabitants say "It is unreliably", and are presenting the doubt strongly to the reliability of this writing. A 85-year-old old woman said "If as many as 15 persons were taken out from our village of only 250 households, it would be a big matter.  However, There was not its fact in those days." 
According to Japanese magazine "Shokun!(諸君!)" on November, 1998, Yoshida said "I who was used by specialists of human right was wrong." 
According to Japanese magazine "Weekly Shincho(週刊新潮)" on May 2-9, 1996, Yoshida said "It write to hide the facts, and to blend their opinions -- the news papers also do. (So, I may do also.) It cannot be helped to be inconsistent."
Objectman 07:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yoshida admitted he had said lie. 

message: I'm doing some research on the issue right now. In regards to this quote:
"In 1990 the Korean Council for Women Drafted for Military Sexual Slavery, with help from Japanese organizations, filed suit"
Can the original writer give me some examples of the organizations in Japan that are assisting with their case? Are they cause lawyers? Korean Organizations in Japan? --Jayc12 01:31, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Further Info

message: Done major rewrite.  Feel free to correct my engrish or any NPOV problems.  I'm going to bed. Good night. FWBOarticle 05:47, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Major Rewrite

message: >However, Yoshida admitted afterward his confesses were not true, according to research of Dr. Ikuhiko Hata.
What is the foundation?  That Yoshida admitted that his work had not been true is a forgery of the rightwing revisionists.  Everton 01:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wait a minute. Bungei Shunju is one of the most reputable monthly magazines in Japan and by no means "ultra right-wing". You can see that magazine in any bookstores and libraries throughout Japan. The magazine also hosts the famous "Akutagawa Prize" which is given to the auther of the best novel written by young writers in the year. Regular publication in Bungei Shunju is an honer, not a sign of "ultra right-wing". 61.24.66.192 18:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dr. Ikuhiko Hata.

message: This whole section has little or nothing to do with the opening paragraph:
:Comfort women ..., or military comfort women ... is a euphemism for women who were forced to work as sex slaves in military brothels in Japanese-occupied countries during World War II.
So I am removing it as it makes the article unfocused and as the section does not carry citations it fails WP:V. If someone thinks that this information should be in Wikipedia (and the brothels that follow International peace keeping missions is probably worth one), then it should be in an article which focuses on this issue not this one.--Philip Baird Shearer 17:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Military brothels, human trafficking, and sexual slavery in context

message: I made some changes attempting to make this thing read a little bit more an encyclopediac topic and less like some depravity perversion porno rant or political soapbox for either side. 
I am neither Japanese nor Korean. For the record, my position within this realm is that we ought to focus on the sex crimes and abuses that are being committed today, that we can do something about, and not try to exploit ancient historical events that we can do nothing about. 
There is more slavery and greater sex trafficing, including child sex trafficing, today than there has ever been in history.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4038249/ 195.82.106.244 02:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The focus of the article is on the Comfort women that were forced to work as sex slave in World War II, not sexual slavery in general and current state of sexual slavery. There is a seperate article on that. Deiaemeth 03:14, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: I would like to note that there are some differences between the Japanese version and this English version regarding this issue. Before determining the Japanese version to be false, please note the below:
The address made by the Japanese Army regarding so callled "abduction" of non-Japanese women into brothels is completely false. The original text reads:
「支那事変地ニ於ケル慰安所設置ノ為、内地ニ於テ之ガ従業婦等ヲ募集スルニ当リ、故ラニ軍部了解等ノ名義ヲ利用シ、為ニ軍ノ威信ヲ傷ツケ、且ツ一般民ノ誤解ヲ招ク虞アルモノ、或ハ従軍記者、慰問者等ヲ介シテ不統制ニ募集シ社会問題ヲ惹起スル虞アルモノ、或ハ募集ニ任ズル者ノ人選適切ヲ欠キ、為ニ募集ノ方法、誘拐ニ類シ警察当局ニ検挙取調ヲ受クル者アル等、注意ヲ要スル者少ナカラザルニ就テハ、将来是等ノ募集ニ当タリテハ、関係地方ノ憲兵及警察当局トノ連繋ヲ密ニシ、以テ軍ノ威信保持上、並ニ社会問題上、遺漏ナキ様配慮相成度、依命通牒ス。」
The text reads that the problem happens in recruitment of comfort women in the Japanese mainland by civilian middlemen, and it warns military units to take care that no such problems should rise, as it will damage the integrity of the armed forces.
Also, in the discussion, someone claims that the comfort women were unpaid-  this is a false accusasion. They were actually paid.
Also, I doubt the wisdom of trusting South Korean sources regarding this issue too much before understanding South Korea's strong nationalistic policies.
:Everytime an ultra-nationalist revionist tries to deny past war crimes (i.e Nanking massacre, state of comfort women, etc.), a kitten dies. True story :-(. Deiaemeth 06:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've got totally fed up with those who try to label their opponents with words like "ultra-nationalist", "history whitewasher", "revisionist" and so on. Don't disturb faithful discussion. If you have some opinion, try to find an evidence to support your theory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.140.223.32 (talk) 11:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much divergence from the Japanese language version  

message: I think the title Comfort Women is a euphemism for 'sex-slaves' or 'forced-prostitutes'. What do you think? Janviermichelle 05:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article specifically notes that the Comfort Women indeed is a euphemism, and many women were indeed worked as forced sex slaves. I think the article is pretty clear on that point. Deiaemeth 06:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Euphemism Revisited

message: I've heard of special units of comfort "men" existing to satiate the sexual desires of Japanese soldiers who were homosexuals, and I've found some interesting facts. Apparently, many boys were taken as sex slaves, especially from the Philippines.  There was even a movie based on such subjects . I'm going to add a section on it soon, but its hard to find too much information on it online.  Deiaemeth 06:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comfort '''Men'''? 

message: This is taken from 
"The Transformation of Sexual Work in 20th-Century Korea"
Gender and Society, Vol. 9 No. 3, June 1995 pgs 310-327
by John Lie
"Although they were virtually sexual serfs, Wianbu were paid.  Japanese women received 3 to 5 yen per intercourse, whereas Koreans received 1.5 to 2 yen."
He goes on to say that this matterered little, since the Japanese Yen became worthless after the war, but regardless, they were paid for their services.  It should be noted that this only refers to the women institutionally integrated into the Japanese "comfort divisions" by the military, not women taken by force or through outside channels.
He cites Fumiko Kawada on this point from a 1987 article entitled
Sekiga no ie: Chosen kara kita jugun ianfu.
Tokyo: Chikuma Shobo.
: Read the cited sources in the article. Very little were paid, most were abducted against their will and brutally raped. Also please read an interesting excerpt above about a homosexual detachment of Comfort women (or Comfort men). Deiaemeth 08:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not significant. The war note was used for Japanese soldier's salary. They used it to pay to the comfort place, and as for them, management there was done, and, as a result, the manager paid the comfort woman the reward. Japanese army did not employ the comfort woman. 
Comfort women's share seems to have been higher than the prostitute in a Japanese mainland. It is thought that this is different by the debt by the prepayment of the reward. 
Comfort womans planned to alternate in about one year.
Of course, they planned to wipe out a debt, to save the war note in addition, to return to the hometown, and to exchange the war note for Japanese yen. It doesn't know whether the plan was able to be achieved enough up front. Elementy 14:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: * I believe that Japanese military yen palyed a crucial rule in this systematic government fraud system.218.153.90.29 00:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wianbu (comfort women) were paid. 

message: I request that this discussion be in English, the language of this Encyclopedia, so that all editors can follow what is being written about.  Thanks Hmains 15:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  discussion in English 

message: Found this link in the german version of this article, which otherwise is a lot less informative than the English or Japanese versions:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4202629.stm
131.130.146.6 20:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AWF to be closed March 2007 

message: Please settle your differences at talk.
*59.22.251.156: Please provide sources for your claim
*Dollarfifty: Please rebute them
*All participants, please respect WP:3RR. Try to find a compromise. 
Give me a note, after the issue is settled and the article is ready to be unprotected abakharev 03:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I changed the level of protection to semi-protect. 59.22.251.156 - Please provide sources before inserting challenged info abakharev 04:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected 

message: Can someone explain to me what the points of contention in this article are? I'd like to help resolve the issues. Davidpdx 08:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Points of Contention in the article 

message: This section Responsibility and compensation discusses only the South Korean victims/workers, that covers only 20% on the people involved. The info box has Korean and Chinese languages but what about Thai, Vietnamese. 
The article has and extensive list of references, I prefer to the use of online sites so that references can be checked. Gnangarra 12:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed GA 

message: I have removed the following: "As the Japanese war effort suffered reversals and the military evacuated their positions in South-East Asia, non-Japanese comfort women were often left behind. Many comfort women starved to death on desert islands thousands of miles away from home. A few managed to make incredible treks thousands of miles across mainland Asia to return to their homes in Korea and northeastern China" since (1) where the Japanese withdrew from were occupied by the allied forces directly afterwards, thus the women were protected by the allied forces (eg. Imphal), (2) Most of the Japanese Army units were anyway not allowed to withdraw (eg. Okinawa, Iwo Jima, etc), (3) There was often no means of transport at all, thus soldiers starved to death along with the women (New Guinea), and (4) there is no such place as mainland Asia.  --TokyoJapan 15:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Starved to Death

message: I have deleted Also, the issue of who caused the financial hardship on these families need to be evaluated. The Japanese government promoted Japanese businesses and heavily taxed the local colonies. This unfair situation caused people to either die of starvation or be sold in to prostitution since the claim of the Japanese occupation of, for example, Korea and Taiwan causing financial damages to the local population through taxation is not substanciated. --TokyoJapan 15:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Financial Matters

message: Until the two sides can work out their differences and come to a consensus on what changes (if any) should be made to this article, this page will remain protected. There have been too many editors working in concert to avoid various policies, and too much POV-pushing back and forth on this article. This needs to stop now. Discuss things here first, and then we'll see about unprotecting the article. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Incredible language barriers and nationalism on both sides prompts me to believe this will forever remain protected.  
However, in the good spirit of discourse I'd like to propose that we look at sources authored by people with no part in this nationalistic charade.  I'm a bit busy at this moment, but I have faith that there are studies done by foreign countries about this tragedy.  I know I have just joined the debate, but I feel very strongly that this subject matter deserves a fair, informational article on Wikipedia.
--King 01:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Page protected

message: This article has been listed as A class, it failed GA for having significant pieces of information ommitted from the article. The article in the lead says the following ethnic break down of the comfort women is  40 % Japanese, 20 % Koreans, 10 % Chinese, with others making up the remaining 30 %(uncited), yet the article only covers the event surrounding Korean women, that leaves 80% of the article still to be completed. The article is currently has on going edit wars over the information and its presentation. To be A class the article needs to be  . At the stage where it could at least be considered for featured article status it needs also to Provides a well-written, reasonably clear and complete description of the topic This article doesnt meet this criteria and I suggest that it be re-assessed. Gnangarra 09:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing that out. It's been fixed. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this really an A-class article?

message: I have found an interesting article : The "Comfort Women" SystemKim976 13:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: External links

message: Prostitution was certainly legal, cf. Prostitution in Japan.  "Bonded labour" is a harder one -- how do you define the term? Jpatokal 07:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legality 

message: Comfort station redirects to here comfort women.  I read the old article and see the connection between comfort women and what I would precieve as a comfort station (western perspective) more like a rest area.  (IMO) The phrase is used on the page Tourist trap on several others as place to "go" that is not in the woods with other aminitess .  I am thinking of building the page Comfort station in that meaning with a disambig link here.  Thoughts? 
Jeepday 15:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Any references to "Comfort station" being something more like a rest area? I've never heard it used like that but if it's a common usage of the term it might work better as a disambig than a redirect. IMFromKathlene 20:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Want to make it a disambig page? I'm not totally sure what to put in the little descriptions for the different pages. IMFromKathlene 18:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you disambiguated it, what would you name the two division? Comfort station (rest) &  Comfort station (sex)?  Jeepday 23:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Disambiguation of Comfort station completed. Jeepday 14:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Redirect from "Comfort Station"

message: I'm not sure that the sources listed in the References were actually used used in the article.  Where, for instance, was Keller's work of fiction used as a source for the article?  If the sources weren't actually used in the article, they should be moved to the External Links section. Patiwat 06:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which references were actually used in the article? 

message: As unpalatable as some of the truth of this topic are, as Wikipedians we have a responsibility to easily verifed sources of reliable information. 
WP:CITE and other Wiki policy such as WP:VERIFY state that every contributor has responsibility to provide citations and remove unreferenced material.  
To quote WP:VERIFY, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.".
To quote founder Jimmy Wales, "Jimmy Wales has said of this: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced".
I note that an unverified tag has been placed on this article since December, can we please now cooperate to provide relaible sources for this contentious topic? 125.203.207.252 03:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of uncited material 

message: I have to agree to the comment from  Patiwat above. There seems to be a very slack use of sources in general on this topic.
* Can anyone help me by providing a detailed breakdown of a number of statistics used in the article? 
The 200,000 figures seems to have entered the popular imagination to be repeated ad nauseum as "fact". What ever the truth of it is, it is clearly being used as for propagandistic purposes where there does not seem to have been presented an inadequate breakdown, e.g.
* number of Japanese prostitutes already working in Korea
* number of Korean and other nation's prostitutes already working in Korea
* number of Korean agents/pimps
* the relative proportions of different nationalities
* the relative proportions of those used for sexual purposes and those used for general purposes such as menial servants, cooks, nurses
* the relative proportions of those with previous experience as prostitutes
* the relative proportions of those voluntarily involved or sold into prostitution either by themselves or by their families
* the relative proportions of those engaged through local/Korean agents and those taken involuntarily
* timeframe and extent over which the alleged practises developed
I appreciate that this is a sensitive issue, both on the Wikipedia and in the international community as a whole, that invoked a number of political issues but it is not being made any better by unwarranted or exaggerated claims being made. In the last case, I am challenging the given perception that Korean was a innocent, blissful place for all women out of which all of a sudden evil Japanese extracted 200,000 women in 1939 and raped them daily for 6 years until 1945.
There exist sound estimates of the extent of Korean prostitution during the Korean War of 1950 onwards, and today, with figures given being in excess of 1,000,000 Korean women (src; Katharine H. S. Moon, Columbia University Press). Today that figure is said to be over 1.2 million with over 300,000 establishments existing related to the provision prostitution . 
* Given that we are talking about a period separated by only 5 years, either the figures for the time during the Japanese occupation and WWII seem quite modest or there must have been a significantly higher number of voluntary prostitutes also working at that time. 
* How did the two groups co-exist?
I hope that we can skip the politics that seem rife in Japanese-Korean relations and cooperate in the first place to provide the best sources of objective statistics
125.203.207.252 05:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for detailed references and statistics 

message: As per title, CNN is a tertiary source - at best - with its own politics and therefore not reliable source, see; WP:VERIFY. Given quotation were pretty much pure shock propaganda.
I have put to you a series of question for adequate documentation. If you want to be taken seriously, let us give them some thought and come up with some references. 
Otherwise, this is just POV to the point of racism. I am sorry but you have to face it, 125.204.39.85 05:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  CNN not reliable source 

message: It seems that some of the subtlety in language may have been missed when translating the PM's statement from Japanese to English, from what I read from some blogs. Apparently, what he said was that he acknowledged that the women may have been coerced by circumstance, but he denied that the Japanese government or military had any role in direct coercion. The statement he made about the comfort women should be clarified and dismabiguated better, by someone knowledgable in the language. I don't know if it's a major difference in translation, but I'm noting it here in case.--Yuje 23:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah you can get that from the reported translation too. I don't see much difference.  But if you have link that clearly illustrates this I'd love to check it out.melonbarmonster 17:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How about this Daily Yomiuri's editorial?http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/editorial/20070307TDY04005.htm PM Abe said "The fact is, there is no evidence to prove there was coercion in the narrower sense.". AP Press omitted "in the narrower sense". Nabetsuneonline 14:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  PM's recent statement 

message: These edits and reversions are becoming a nuisance.  Tropicaljet you've continued to make edits and reverts without explaining yourself. You need to limit your contributions to this talk page to explain your edits rather than using it as a soapbox in violation of WP:NOT#SOAP.
Please propose serious edits here and gain consensus before reverting or editing.  Thank you.melonbarmonster 20:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Japanese Revisionist Edits 

message: Since the reporters of Western media can't read Japanese sources, they write many wrong stories. So we set up a blog that presents detabase about Ianfu in English, . At least read the articles collected here before you write nonsense based on the articles by illiterate reporters.Ikedanobuo 09:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Show me at least one examle what nonsense I wrote. If you can't, you are bullshit, Phonemonkey. Ikedanobuo 02:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sweeping statements such as "comfort women were commercial prositutes" on the back of evidence that a handful of them were paid is exactly the sort of nonsense I have come to expect from Japanese weekly trash-mags.Phonemonkey 09:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Blog about Ianfu in English

message: This is the article in Japanese about Ianfu. It is a balanced description that represents the consensus among historians in Japan. It says the Ianfu were commercial prostitutes. Can you read it? 
And the article about Seiji Yoshida says he was a liar. No dispute in Japan. But Koreans still believe his "confession" because their textbooks still publish his bogus confession.Ikedanobuo 12:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Stop trying to suggest everybody who disagrees with you is Korean, it's racist, upsetting, and furthermore, it is not true. I've never even set my foot in Korea. Mackan 14:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He never say you are Korean as described above. He say only that Koreans think so. Read again in repose please. Tropicaljet 16:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Japanese site of Wikipedia

message: The protection is canceled by robot. Should we continue protection until we reach some agreement?218.216.99.67 01:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Should we continue protection?

message: The estimate of the number is wrong:Estimates vary from 50,000 to 300,000, but most sources indicate about 200,000 young women were recruited to serve in Japanese military brothels.The source is BBC, which quotes no source. I wrote:Estimates of the number of women varies greatly, but it is generally recognized that most of them were from Japan and Korea. Yoshiaki Yoshimi estimates that there were about 2,000 centers where as many as 200,000 Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Taiwanese, Burmese, Indonesian, Dutch and Australian women were interned. Ikuhiko Hata estimates the number of women working in the licensed pleasure quarter was fewer than 20,000. They were 40% Japanese, 20% Koreans, 10% Chinese, with others making up the remaining 30%. 200,000 might be an overestimation because the total number of government-regulated prostitutes was 170,000 in Japan during the WW2.Its source is a historian's research. Why did you replace it with such secondary and unreliable sources? If you can't refute my claim, unlock the protection and let me write. Ikedanobuo 05:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The BBC is a reliable source.  --ElKevbo 06:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, the sources are CNN and Boston Globe. But they don't report the number of 300,000. Who says that? Ikedanobuo 07:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In Wikipedia, CNN and the Boston Globe are reliable sources.  Please read the policy.  --ElKevbo 07:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked the source of the estimate of 300,000. Can you read English? Ikedanobuo 07:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hell if I know where they got that number.  *I* didn't write it.  If the sources we cite all say 200,000 then that's what should be in the article.  --ElKevbo 07:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: And thirty seconds of actually looking at the article and its references shows that the BBC claims that "An estimated 200,000 to 300,000 women across Asia, predominantly Korean and Chinese, are believed to have been forced to work as sex slaves in Japanese military brothels."  The BBC is a reliable source so it should definitely be included in the article (as it is currently).  --ElKevbo 08:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with you. BBC, CNN, and other Western media rely on the old sources that were disproved by the new research by Hata and other historians. Now there is no controversy among historians about the fact that no evidence of abduction was found. The controversy is concerning the interpretation (narrow and broad sense). I propose you to quote only the reliable sources by historians such as Yoshimi and Hata. In fact they agree basically. Ikedanobuo 08:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree that all available evidence, including retracted or disproven evidence, needs to be included.  My primary objection and the reason I intervened in this article was the large-scale deletion of well-sourced information.  I don't recall who was deleting that information but it's not very important as I would object no matter who was deleting it.  But I don't object to including additional or new information, even if that modifies or refutes information already included.  That's exactly what we *should* be doing instead of deleting information.  --ElKevbo 08:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't have strong opinions about what's discussed in this entry although I'm very much interested in this and have been watching what's been happening to the page in the last few days.  ElKevbo, it seems to me that the user Ikedanobuo has been trying primarily to add new info mostly backed by decent sources, if not with first-class reliabilities.  It seems to me who has been repeatedly reverting the page and deleting new info without reasonably organized discussions were those who have different opinions than him. Ikeda-san, your edits to the main text seems to be mostly reasonable to me, at least me personally.  I understand English is not your native tongue, and expressing what you feel strongly about in a second language sometimes has to result in what's seen by native speakers as offense or incivility if you really need to try to get across.  But your language and attitudes in this discussion page so far has been having some negative impacts on your objective -- including new info you want to bring into the page.  Japanese is a polite language in its nature, you should be able to reach at that level in English if you take a few seconds rereading your words before pushing the save page button.  208.72.137.139 09:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't rely on Western media

message: Next Friday, 3/23, the Information and Communication Policy Forum, of which I am the director, will have a symposium "The future of user-generated media" in Tokyo. Jimmy Wales will deliver the keynote address. Please come to the symposium and discuss the Wikipedia's policy. Ikedanobuo 23:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Without meaning to sound so hostile, please explain the relevance of the above post to the Comfort Woman article. Thank you. Phonemonkey 17:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think he is frustrated with the way Wikipedia works, especially after he experienced a flush of reverts on his contributions (allegedlly done from multiple anonymous IP addresses, a long known loophole for vandalism) and accusation of 'meatpuppetry' by Mr. Mackan (to what Mr. Ikeda believes to be a mere act of 'self-defence' against run-away vandalism). He also assumes that this frustration is shared among audicence, and Jimmy Wales is the logical person to turn to if you want the answer for all of this. He happens to be one of the committe members who invited Jim to a symposium in Japan, Hence the above invitation. ... This is what I read off of Mr. Ikeda's blog written in Japanese. Correct me if I am wrong. Strongaxe 09:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is meatpuppetry, though. It's not really up for interpretation, if you read the guidelines. Mackan 20:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Invitation to the symposium with Jimmy Wales