Talk:Colomban Cri-cri

message: I am a bit worried about the roll performance figure. While I positively remember the exhibitors telling about 1 roll per second, the standard performance sheet linked in the external fan site I have discovered recently says 1 roll per 2 seconds. Which gives that either F-PYTH was beefed up above average flaperon-wise, or that my memories failed me, or that there was a comm problem at the exhibition. Help establishing this is needed. BACbKA
: Either figure (1 or 2 rolls per second) is probably too high.  That would be 360 degrees per second - or 720 degrees per second.   Astronomical figures.   Even competition aerobatic aircraft such as the Pitts S1S or S2C only manage about 300 degrees per second of roll rate.
: The "specifications" that were originally listed for the MC-12 Cricket (the US version of the Cri-Cri, offered in Kit form from 1981-1985 by Zenith) showed a roll rate of 180 degrees per second.   That would equate to 1/2 roll per second - a figure that is much more believable.
Andy M. 11 Jan 2005
::Sorry, I was incoherent in my original question. I had wanted to say "1 roll per second or per 2 seconds?" This is why I was saying that the one at OSH was "beefed up" -- I was also comparing against the Zenith kit sheet where it is 1 roll per two seconds. 
::I've never done any aerobatics myself, even the thought makes me sick, so I don't know ;-) BACbKA 12:55, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roll performance - 1 per second or per 2 seconds?! 

message: The webmaster address of the fan site linked in from the article is bouncing (I tried to ask him for a clarification on the Cri-cri issues). The yahoo group CriCri is closed subscription, and closed posting; I have attempted to subscribe but haven't been let in so far (most likely my request hasn't even been seen yet due to the timezone shift). BACbKA 12:39, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Cri Cri fan site 

message: the cricri is said to be short for cricket but the french wikipedia page tells us the name comes from one of Colomban's daughter called Christine. The fan site included in the external links also states that:
"The plane became reality in 1973 and was given a name after Michel Comomban's daughter, who was also often called 'Cri-Cri'."
Shouldn't something be done? PAG, 16 april 2010  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.173.62.144 (talk) 12:15, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. There is no reference in the French speaking world of « cri-cri » comming from the cricket. I made the change but was overturned by ahunt without any explanation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ex-IP 2.14.137.125 (talk • contribs) 11:56, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: See this ref, which says "Colomban dubbed his unique aircraft the Cri-Cri, French for "cricket", after the nickname of his daughter." I'll cite that and adjust the wording. - Ahunt (talk) 12:50, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I am a French native speaker. First, it is plain wrong to write " Cri-Cri, French for 'cricket' ". French for 'cricket' is 'criquet'. Most of the time "cricri" is the sound made by the cricket or the cicada. The metonymical use of 'cricri' to design a cricket or a cicada is very uncommon, at least in the parts of France I know. Then, in French language articles, you'll find only the Christine explanation for the name of this plane (Cri-cri is the most common nickname for a woman called  Christine or Christiane). See  or . One can not be sure that when Colomban decided to call this plane Cri-cri, he didn't think 'hey, this is a good wordplay between my daughter's nickname and one of the meanings of cricri' but in the French speaking world while the reference to Christine is proven, the relation with the onomatopoeia is nowhere so a wikipedia article should write only about the former. Ex-IP 2.14.137.125 (talk) 21:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia isn't based on opinions of editors, it is based upon reliable refs and what they say. So let's see what the preponderance of the refs say. If we have many reliable refs that disagree then we have to indicate that disagreement. I have cited one reliable ref above, what else is there out there? - Ahunt (talk) 21:10, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: French language references about the origin of the name should prevail over other language references because 1) They are more direct and thus less prone to invention 2) Chances are that Colomban himself can read and criticize incorrect explanations. As for the "Cri-Cri means cricket in English" this is still linguistically wrong . A correct wording (not including my English mistakes)  could be "The name Cri-cri is said to come from   the nickname of Christine, one of Colomban's daughters (). Incidentally or not ,'Cricri' is the French for the sound of a cricket or a cicada, or for these insects themselves. Ex-IP 2.14.137.125 (talk) 21:59, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: On Wikipedia all reliable refs can be used, but, no, primacy is not given to any one language over another. The decision to use refs is based upon WP:RS. In this case your frederic.secchi.free.fr ref is WP:SPS and so not a reliable source, although the www.parismatch.com ref is fine. The aerospaceweb.org source I quoted above is likewise a reliable source. So far the two acceptable refs don't contradict each other and even you noted that "Incidentally or not ,'Cricri' is the French for the sound of a cricket or a cicada, or for these insects themselves". It all sounds consistent to me and that the name was chosen for its double mean, one general meaning and one more personal to the designer. - Ahunt (talk) 00:23, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion is drifting. We agree that both your aerospaceweb article (which btw is a discutable source as the writer  doesn't seem to be more reliable than Frederic Secchi) says that the name comes from the nickname of Christine, one of Colomban's daughters. So this part must figure and be the first one. As for the "Cri-Cri means cricket in English" stuff, I have proved that it this just wrong . Any talk about the possible etymological origin of the name should state that "'cricri' (note that there is no capitalization here) is the French for the sound of a cricket or a cicada, or a popular calling for these insects themselves". If this parts stays, it should be at least corrected to be linguistically exact and come after the proven origin of the name. Should it stay ? Writing a explanation about the French meanings of cricri suggests that there is a causal relationship between the meaning and the name of the plane, what you stated as "that the name was chosen for its double mean" . This is a personal opinion and as you wrote before ('Wikipedia isn't based on opinions of editors'), unless you have a reliable ref that the name was chosen for its double mean,  it shall be suppressed. Ex-IP 2.14.137.125 (talk) 13:48, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not my opinion, the source for that says "Colomban dubbed his unique aircraft the Cri-Cri, French for "cricket", after the nickname of his daughter." It is very clear there and agrees with what you said. The reason this ref is different from a WP:SPS ref is that it has editorial oversight, as per WP:RS. Nothing in this ref contradicts what the other two refs you cited says, either. The others give one source for the name and this one gives the same, plus a double meaning. - Ahunt (talk) 14:48, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text:  An opinion has no weight here : The affirmation  'Cri-Cri, French for "cricket" ' is simply false.  It just can't be written here and cast more than a shadow on the reliability of the source.  Notwithstanding, your comprehension of the sentence is mistaken.  This sentence explains why Colomban called it plane Cri-Cri (note that if Cri-Cri were to design the sound of a cricket or of a cicada, or these insects, it shouldn't be capitalized on the second C) : "he called it after after the nickname of his daughter". The relation is explicit.  The 'Cri-Cri, French for "cricket" ' is an information added by the redactor and doesn't imply that this was Colomban own intention. Non self published source  also doesn't evoke the insect explanation. I have modified the page accordingly. Ex-IP 2.14.137.125 (talk) 19:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  origin of the name 

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thread_title:  External links modified