Talk:Goguryeo/Archive 2

message: there is no significant historical controversy with authoritative publications. a paragraph explaining the political controversy is sufficient.
*Koguryo, the largest of the three kingdoms into which ancient Korea was divided until 668. Koguryo is traditionally said to have been founded in 37 BC in the Tongge River basin of northern Korea by Chu-mong, leader of one of the Puyo tribes native to the area, but modern historians believe it is more likely that the tribal state was formed in the 2nd century BC. (britannica) 
*Koguryo, a native Korean kingdom (columbia encyc) 
*Koguryŏ, also known as Goguryeo, an indigenous Korean kingdom that emerged in the 1st century bc. (encarta) 
Appleby 17:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  infobox 

message: In the subsection Foudnation of the section History, first appears Samguk Sagi to explain the origin of Goguryeo. But this was compiled in the 12th century, so isn't it better to use Sanguo Zhi which is older by about 900 years? It doesn't seem to be clear why such a relatively "new" record is cited, and Sanguo Zhi was created contemporarily when Goguryeo existed. -59.143.134.204 14:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Book of Later Han (record from 25 to 220) and Records of Three Kingdoms (189 to 280) mension Goguryeo.  Book of Han (206 BC to 25), on the other hand, mensions Joseon (Gojoseon) but do not mension Goguryeo. --Kusunose 06:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Sanguo Zhi is one of the histrical records of China. Sanguo Yanyi is the novel. --Kusunose 06:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Isn't it better to cite ''Sanguo Zhi''? 

message: I think mention should be made of Prof. Beckwith's important book on reconstructing the Koguryo language:
Beckwith, Christopher I. (2004) Koguryo: The Language of Japan's Continental Relatives, Leiden: Brill.
--149.159.3.53 18:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  language 

message: This debate is similar to the one they had for Yayoi Period#The Origin of Yayoi Culture, in Japanese history.  There, the section was divided into 4 parts, one for each theory, on where the "Yayoi people" in Japan came from.  Perhaps the disputed section in the "Goguryeo" article should be divided in a similar fashion?--Endroit 22:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will add that good reputable secondary sources, in English, should accompany each theory.--Endroit 22:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: It is similar, in that there are opposing theories, including nationalistic ones.--Endroit 23:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I dont think so.--Hairwizard91 13:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I would agree that this is the best way to proceed. ...with, as you say, good reputable secondary sources.  -- Visviva 14:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposal for listing 2 opposing theories

message: The current situation of whether Goguryeo is Chinese or not is not a matter of whether Goguryeo was part of Chinese history. Rather, it is an issue of WHAT the Goguryeo people were in the wider geopolitical history of Northeast Asia. Currently, the Northeast Project of China has an inititive to turn all countries that was in Manchuria to ethnic Chinese. This does not only mean that such countries were part of China's history (which they are, for now), but that they ARE part of Zhonghua minzu, having been assimulated into China.
Now, most people believe that this whole controversy is about whether Goguryeo should be in Chinese history books. However, the REAL issue is not this, but of whether the PRC government (they, after all, are funding the Northeast Project) is trying to assimulate every ethnic group close to them by fixing history.To use an anology, France(PRC) is saying that Rome(Goguryeo) was French because part of the empire's territory was in France's current boundries.
(To be continued)
--General Tiger
:So, what is difference between China and Zhonghua minzu?? They are different?? According to the logic of north east project, the native american history should have been the history of USA. But, the native american history is not history of USA. --Hairwizard91 09:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Native americans are probably included in History of the United States since the article starts with what happened as the native americans came to America. Its obvious that native americans would be included in there. Good friend100 00:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concerning whether Goguryeo is Chinese or not.... 

message: * The articles reported by the Northeast China project posted in The China Border Land Homepage :
  1. 
     -Koguryo was a local regime of China.  
  2. 
     -Koguryo should not be confused with Korea and Koreans living in China.    
  3. 
     -The change of the capital of Koguryo   
  4. 
     -Ko's Korea (Koguryo) is different from Wang's Korea.
:However, while I realize that it is a governmental agency that hosts these pages, does this actually reflect PRC's official position?  I am not sure that they do, and a more solid reference is needed, I think.  --Nlu (talk) 22:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, could you give a more detailed description of what specifically is in these articles? thanks. Also, who is "Wang"? Good friend100 02:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Wang's Korea" is Goryeo... Goguryeo's name was also often abbreviated to Goryeo, hence the desire to distinguish 고씨 고려 from 왕씨 고려.  -- Visviva 02:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference for Morden Politic section. 

message: Could an admin lock this article from being edited, either semi or full? There are continous POV edits. Good friend100 19:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  requesting lock 

message: Hey Nlu I suggest we re revert to see what Mr. GreatChinaPatriot wants to say about Gaogouli. Good friend100 04:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  rv 

message: “辽东之地，周为箕子之国，汉家之玄菟郡耳。魏晋已前，近在提封之内，不可许以不臣”。 
"辽东旧中国之有，　自魏涉周，　置之度外。隋氏出师者四，丧律而还，杀中国良县不可胜数。今彼弑其主，恃险骄盈，朕长夜思之而掇寝。将为中国复子弟之仇．　为高丽讨弑君之贼。今九瀛大定，唯此一隅，用将士之余力，平荡妖寇耳。然恐于后子孙或因士马强盛必有奇决之士，劝其伐辽，兴师遐征，或起丧扎，及朕未老，欲自取之．亦不遗后人也。"
to
Place of the Liaodong, Zhou Weiji the country of, Chinese family unreliable 菟 county ear. In front of within Wei Jinyi, nearly in raises seals, cannot permit by not the feudal official ". Having of the "Liaodong old China, from Wei Shezhou, disregards. Sui finishing an apprenticeship four, loses the law also, kills Chinese good county countless. Now other murders its host, relies on the danger 骄盈, I am long 夜思 but 掇 the bedroom. . Will ask for enmity of for the Chinese duplicate juniors for Korea kills one's sovereign the thief. Now nine seas greatly decide, only this corner, with the officers and men -odd strength, evenly swings the monster invader ear. However fears to the after descendants or because the gentleman horse powerful must have the wonderful definitely gentleman, urges it to cut down distantly, raises forces 遐 to draft, or mourning grips, and I have not been old, want to bring on oneself it. also not to lose the posterity.
using altavista babel fish
This translation is terrible.
yes it is... it cant be trusted either because its in simplified han text.Odst 17:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: translation

message: I found this image on flickr
:Image:Chinesetextbookofgoguryeoflickr.jpg 
The light pink area is supposed to be the land of Goguryeo. The image is from a chinese textbook and its all wrong. Goguryeo expanded to Manchuria and the north, not all the way down there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Good friend100 (talk • contribs) 14:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How [censored] You don't read any Chinese characters or hanja do you? There's nothing Goguryeo shown on this map, the light pink area is the Kingdom of Wei, or Cao Wei, one of the three kingdoms of the three kingdoms perid. .... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.83.232.59 (talk) 05:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Goguryeo never expanded beyond liaodong, even in the so-called 'golden ages of Goguryeo'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.83.232.59 (talk) 07:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Image:Tree_Kingdoms_of_China.jpgMr. Horse 02:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  check this out 

message: Check this article on the Chosun ilbo 
I know that there is a digital Chosun in English but I don't know how to get this article in english, sorry for those of you who can't read korean...
Basically, it is an interview with James Lilley, former ambassador to Korea and China, who said that when the communist government of North Korea will fall, China will rush to occupy at least half of North Korea and claim it as theirs so they can have more land to the already enormous country of theirs. How shocking. Good friend100 15:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. China has done that numerous times. During the Imjin Wars many of the Ming soldiers did more harm than help and China's assistance in the Japanese Invansions were greatly exaggerated. They have also done that in the Korean War when Mao sent millions of untrained PLA soldiers to Korea. What would all those men be doing in Korea other than fighting the UN troops? Mostly sacking the Korean villages and hurting civilians. Just because your land is big and ur people numerous doesnt make your nation the dominator of Asia. Look how the Japanese imperialists turned out, two bombs.
Evidence! Evidence! my korean friends. It was not Korean begged Chinese to help them. China is not the dominator of Asia now. China can dominate North Korea. That's the truth.
Once again, a korean friend wants to bomb China using nuclear weapons. China is big enough to survive from a nuclear war. How is South Korea?
At least Korea is still a morally and ethically Civilized culture... The Chinese? their culture got screwed up by the Jurchens. I respect the Ming, but the Qing and the PRC are two messed up countries. Odst 03:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dream on! All historical records on ancient Korean peninsular were written in Classical Chinese. I can read and understand them, but you can't! Want to know your ancesters? Learn Chinese first!75.83.232.59 05:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Check this out 

message: Chinese claim just 5~30 years That´s all.
but Koreans already 1,000 years exceed.
300px|thumb|left|real Goguryeo territory.
this map is real Goguryeo territory. chinese claim Goguryro territory different, but it is a wrong opinion. 
Korea history (talk) 11:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I have seen that ugly scene, I will never forget.75.83.232.59 05:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goguryeo→Chinese history?  That´s against all reason. 

message: I deleted that utterly stupid image of beakje,silla, and goguryo having more land than tang... can someone tell me where he got that map? Cause it's utterly stupid beyond all forms of sane recognition. Odst 05:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heads up  

message: User talk:Mr. Horse
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yo dude, Quit arguing about Goguryo... Goguryo is Korean!!!! Odst 05:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I got a message for my dear Korean friend

message: To all my Chinese brothers out there, Give us your opinion to why you think Goguryo "Gaogoli"  is Chinese. Is it for strong pride of nationalism, or is it truly because you see something out of place? Have you ever imagined how we Koreans see it? Would you have cared if you were not Chinese? Tell me your views. I am willing to listen, provided that you bear the truth to your lips. Odst 03:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As I've previously told you, whether Goguryeo is Korean, Chinese, both, or neither depends on how you define "Korean" and "Chinese."  --Nlu (talk) 04:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On how "Korean" should be defined with respect to Koguryo, it would be a cultural definition. How does this cultural definition work? Lets take Shang Dynasty for example. Shang Dynasty perished by Zhou Dynasty's conquest, but nevertheless is defined as a "Chinese" kingdom as it was part of a cultural continuity that eventually became what is now the nation of China. Cydevil 11:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

text: In any case, the direction you're taking the discussion is unhelpful.  This is an encyclopedia.  This is not a debate forum, nor is this a ground for combating nationalistic ideologies.  Do something productive here.  If you can't do that, Wikipedia isn't for you.  --Nlu (talk) 07:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know how to sign my comments.75.83.232.59 05:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Thanks a lot!75.83.232.59 05:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  HEADS UP 

message: you know, even official chinese records say that Goguryeo was a state successor to gojoseon. It is also undoubtedly true that Goguryeo had a similar culture to Silla and Beakje. After all, the Beakje royal family descended from the Goguryeo royal family. even the royal crowns looked similar. evidence, you say? find it in the library or on the web. I got mine from a book, but I dont wanna go thru all that scanning and uploading... The Kaya, Silla, and Goguryeo royal crowns looked very similar. the Beakje one was a bit different, but also similar. and Why would people ever coin the "three kingdoms" name? It's fairly obvious why. Even the Chinese used that term, calling Koreans the "three savage states", according to "liang shu (tung i chan)", if my translations are correct. I wonder why they would name us that way... Odst 06:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Goguryeo - Chinese or Korean?  

message: A bunch of Goguryeo descendant tombs are found in Luoyang, China. It showed where did Goguryeo people relocate to.--Yeahsoo 22:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Chinese sources... can you translate it or tell us what it says. Goguryo descendants dispersing into China doesn't really help with resolving disagreements.Melonbarmonster 05:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Goguryeo descendant tomb found in China