Talk:Jean Cocteau

message: I would like to know if it is fine to have videoartworld as an external link for this page. On his article there is a nice focus on the orpheus trilogy and a rich media content...I am an teacher and art critic collaborating with www.videoartworld.com (for free). Videoartworld is a non profit site, having only banners of non profit entities (Green Peace, WWF, British Art Council...). As i i am writing for them, it looks like there is a conflict of interest according to Wikipedia Guidelines. One moderator deleted every links thinking at first i might be a spammer. Which mean i need to 1st talk with people on the discussion page. please do not hesitate to give me advices as i am quite new in wikipedia, but as an Art lover and Cinema teacher, i would love to be more involved....
PS: in Videoartworld, more than 40 critics from every continents are collaborating to give high levels of critics (we all do it for free, no business at all, no spam. To keep this Art alive....) I hope it will be appreciated by all the people working on Cinema, "art et essais," Experimental video art.....
If you have advices as well about adding new contemporary artists, please tell it to me.... Thanks a lot for your answers and your advices. Jjcolmax 11:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improving Comment and links

message: I am removing this because there is no evidence that Cocteau and Radiguet had a sexual relationship.  In his "Portrait Souvenir de Jean Cocteau" (ed. Tallandier 1989 pp 60-68), Roger Stéphane transcribes an interview given at the French Radio by Jean Cocteau in 1963 (six months before his death) where he discusses his relationship with Radiguet, who spent most of his evenings either at the appartment of Juan Gris or at the appartment of Max Jacob, where he usually slept either on the floor or on the kitchen table.  Cocteau also mentions Radiguet's girlfriend who later married the French film maker Réné Clair.  Cocteau does not suggest that he was interested in anything other than Radiguet's talent as a writer. And is one trip to Arcachon with Auric and Mr and Mrs Valentin Hugo and a few nights at La Boeuf sur le Toit during a period of about two years really that important?  Cocteau seemed to think that it was worth two pages out of one hundred and thirty in this book..... 
I have also removed the following statement: "To Cocteau's distress and Paley's life-long regret, the fetus was aborted due to the intervention of Marie-Laure de Noailles, the eccentric arts patron who had loved Cocteau as a young woman and was determined to ruin his new romance."  What is the source of this material?  I have read quite a bit about Madame de Noailles and know people who knew her.  I have never heard of this, other than Madame de Noailles friendship with Cocteau.  Please provide a source! Musikfabrik 08:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removing the references to Raymond Radiguet and Marie-Laure de Noailles

message: Dont we need to mention Priory of Sion and Coctrau's alleged relationship with this institution here??? What say??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.18.49.67 (talk) 13:14, September 3, 2006 (UTC)
:is there any inconclusive evidence involving the hoax of the priory of sion, is it just a hoex? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.49.150.82 (talk) 06:25, October 31, 2006 (UTC)
::It is 100%, unambiguously, a hoax. Some guy made it up to justify his bogus claim to the throne of France.
::By the way, I don't really know the formatting, or I'd fix it myself, but shouldn't the bulk of the article be removed from the table? It's been that way for months and is plainly a mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volfied (talk • contribs) 19:11, December 15, 2006
::Other alleged famous grand masters of the order in recent years, apart from Cocteau are Victor Hugo and Claude Debussy. Leonardo da Vinci and Isaac Newton were earlier famous grand master. All this according to the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail. __meco 16:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Priory of Sion 

message: The material below was deleted from Historical pederastic relationships by an editor who found it too long for that article. However, it would be a pity to have the material go to waste, as it is well sourced. Any objections if I integrate into the section on the friendship between the two? Haiduc 01:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The man said black on white that their romantic relationship failed. That sounds pretty plain to me. The article also mentions that Cocteau was "devastated" by Radiguet's death. I was amused by your inclusion of Cocteau's letter to Radiguet's father. Did he not compare the son to Rimbaud? I am sure you are not insensitive to that implication. I will have to look it up. Haiduc (talk) 11:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  I find it tragic that your world is so small that you imagine the only reason one man might be devastated by a beloved friend's death is if there was erotic regard between them.  That you believe such a statement is proof of sexual desire speaks volumes about your inability to maintain a neutral point of view on this topic.  Nandesuka (talk) 11:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you really an administrator here?! Is this what administrators are supposed to be doing, denigrating the world view of contributors? Or putting words in my mouth? Who keeps you people in check, anyway? Haiduc (talk) 11:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  On this article, I am acting as an editor, and I'm perfectly happy to take issue with the opinions of others when they are negatively impacting our articles as, in this case, I believe yours are.  If you are unhappy with my characterization of your views, I encourage you to seek input from other editors, or perhaps open a request for comment.   Nandesuka (talk) 12:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Unfortunately you cannot change skins as easily as all that. Please do not project your ideas of me upon me, and restrict yourself to the topic at hand. Let's talk about Cocteau and Radiguet, they are much more interesting people than you or I. Haiduc (talk) 12:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  When an editor presents the extraordinary thesis that  a man being "devastated" at the death of his beloved friend is proof positive of sexual regard of that friend, that editor has made himself the topic at hand.  If this is the lens through which you read sources, then I think other editors are going to have to fact-check your work much more extensively, because it casts doubt on every summary you have written on this topic. Nandesuka (talk) 12:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Your incessant insistence that "'a man being "devastated' at the death of his beloved friend is proof positive of sexual regard of that friend" originates with me is aberrant. It originates with you. It is an example of the defamatory style of debate that seems to be your stock in trade. The article in the GLR counters two assertions of the anti-relationship proponents. It counters the assertion that their friendship was not romantic by calling it romantic (albeit failed). And it counters the psychologically implausible claim that Cocteau did not give a damn about Radiguet's death and went off to the ballet instead. Next time you think I said something as mind-numbingly stupid as what you claimed I said, check with me first. I suggest that you apologize and go around retracting your absurd accusations wherever you seem to have plastered them. I must say that these administrators who have latched on to the pederasty topic, you and Brenermann and a couple of others, are behaving in a very immature and provocative fashion, and you have become a disgrace and a liability to Wikipedia. You are showing up this project as an out-of-control anarchy, and making a laughing stock of yourselves and the rest of us. Haiduc (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your protests are noted, although I think your use of the "devastated" quote is perfectly clear, if not transparent (if you weren't talking about a relationship between Cocteau and Radiguet, then what in the Seven Hills could you possibly have been talking about?)  But be that as it may, I encourage you to open a request for comments if you believe you have been ill-treated.  Returning to Cocteau (remember him?) we find that mainstream reliable sources, namely the most well-researched biographies, such as Seegmuller -- which make no attempt to avoid discussing Cocteau's acknowledged homosexuality -- are unconvinced that Cocteau and Radiguet's relationship was an erotic one.  Yes, there were snide insinuations at the time, as well as some fringe theories from lesser sources.  Fortunately for our readers, we are forbidden to prefer fringe sources in preference to the mainstream of academic discourse by WP:UNDUE.  Nandesuka (talk) 00:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

text: I look forward to all of your future speculations on and insinuations about my age, gender, sexual preferences, politics, religion, sense of humor, taste in clothes, athletic ability, attractiveness, driving ability, emotional well-being, and preferences in typefaces.  I do, however, politely request that you confine such speculations to my talk page, so that at least you won't be disturbing people who are here to edit an encyclopedia. Nandesuka (talk) 00:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radiguet redux 

message: Diaghilev did not tell Cocteau to "astonish me"; those words were given to either Stravinsky or Nijinsky.  It was later written that the words "astonish me" were a source of great inspiration to Jean Cocteau.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mochsner (talk • contribs) 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Astonish me" 

message: The 'Richard Berrong, "Poet of the Cinema" in The Gay and Lesbian Review July/August 2008 p.32' citation turns out to be only a short review so I altered it to refer to the reviewed biography. —EqualRights (talk) 12:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Radiguet citation 

message: Wow! There seems to be quite an acrimonious debate going on here as to whether Cocteau slept with Raymond Radiguet or not.  I don't really think it matters either way...
I'm interested in Cocteau's politics though.  Arno Breker, the sculptor, was an official Nazi artist [see Wiki articles in English and German].  There was a big show of his work in Paris during the German occupation and Cocteau attended, giving great praise to the sculpture and the artist (to our eyes it looks like totalitarian drivil though with a strong homoerotic charge). Of course, this was held against Cocteau later as collaboration and fraternizing with the enemy. 
Can anyone here add a paragraph about Cocteau's political stance? (One of his lovers was tortured to death by the Nazis as a member of the resistance.) If not, I'd like to add a few lines about Breker, as above.
Please respond!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.241.75 (talk) 01:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Cocteau's politics

message: "Orphée" is also a theatre piece from 1926--Revery (talk) 15:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Orphée

message: Reference with photo here . 86.140.128.200 (talk) 11:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cocteau painting in the BBC Bureau, Paris 

message: If earlier article revisions perhaps included too much discussion of Cocteau's homo- or bisexuality, the current version is way too oblique and prudish about it: "...associates, friends and lovers..."—how much more vague can it get?
I certainly don't agree with queer studies proponents claiming more or less every artist to have been gay in hindsight, but I think in Cocteau's case there can be no question that he was quite open about it and that it influenced his work, so it deserves some discussion (without taking over the entire article).
So IMHO this article needs to find a reasonable middle ground between prurient and prudish, perhaps by readmitting some of the material in earlier revisions, with decent references of course. E.g. Steegmuller's book, which AFAIK, despite being 40 years old, is not nearly so evasive about the whole subject as the WP article right now. --Morn (talk) 00:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  (Non-)Discussion of his sexuality 

message: "Along with other avant-garde artists of his generation (Jean Anouilh and René Char for example) Cocteau grappled with the algebra of verbal codes old and new, mise en scène language and technologies of modernism to create a paradox: a classical avant-garde."
Oh my goodness, that is the most pretentious thing I've read in at least a week. Can someone please edit or remove that to make it less obnoxious and un-encyclopedic? 99.70.203.212 (talk) 21:10, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: I stumbled upon some articles about the relationship between the princes Natalie Paley and Cocteau. Apparently in one of his book Frédéric Miterrand points out that Cocteau has largely exaggerated this relationship. It was a platonic affair because Nathalie was incapable of physical relationships (she was raped as a child). She was very much annoyed by all the fuss Cocteau made around her. He spoke about her supposed pregnancy only afterwards, but she never confirmed the rumor. Can anyone verify?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanako1983 (talk • contribs) 08:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed this narrative for lack of a (long requested) citation of source. Thank you for marking it.--Jbeans (talk) 07:09, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Natalie Paley 

message: I noticed that Cocteau has been placed in a lot of "Christian" categories but there is nothing in his biography that discusses his religious beliefs or if he was in fact an atheist. Categories should reflect what is contained in the subject's biography. They should either be removed or there should be some examination of his religious faith in this article. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 01:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Christian"? 

message: According to this article, Cocteau predeceased Edith Piaf, who died on hearing of his death, but other sources put it the other way round. e.g. http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2011/oct/12/archive-jean-cocteau-dies-edith-piaf.  Has someone got their pronouns confused here, or is there some doubt about who died first?
Rodparkes (talk) 07:32, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The Wikipedia article was wrong before. Cocteau died after hearing from Piafs death but not because of that (but that's the story that sounds good, and thus its always told). He had heart problems and was already bedridden when he got the message of Piafs death. VINCENZO1492  06:39, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Who died first: Piaf or Cocteau?

message: «His circle of associates, friends and lovers included Kenneth Anger, Pablo Picasso, Jean Hugo, Jean Marais, Henri Bernstein, Yul Brynner, Marlene Dietrich, Coco Chanel, Erik Satie, Igor Stravinsky, María Félix, Édith Piaf, Panama Al Brown and Raymond Radiguet.» -- WATCH OUT! Who's who? Lovers? Surely Raymond Radiguet, Jean Marais and Panama Al Brown. Friends? Surely Pablo Picasso, Jean Hugo, Marlene Dietrich, Coco Chanel and Édith Piaf. Associates (and friends?)? Kenneth Anger, Henri Bernstein, Yul Brynner, Erik Satie, Igor Stravinsky, María Félix... —Ana Bruta (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  «His circle of associates, friends and lovers included...» 

message: "Muse"? What does that mean?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.59.153.75 (talk) 22:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:   His muse and lover for over 25 years was actor Jean Marais. 

message: This article seems to have been written in the... 1950s and by a priest! In view of the blatant biographical, mainstream literary and artistic evidence, and most particularly after the publishing of Le Livre blanc (Éditions des Quatres Chemins, Paris, 1928; Éditions du Signe, Paris, 1930, illustrations de l'auteur; Paul Morihien, Paris, 1949, 1953, illustrations de l'auteur; Persona, Paris, 1981; Passage du Marais, Paris, 1992; Le Livre de Poche, 1999; Peter Owen, 2000), of Cocteau: A Biography by Francis Steegmuller (Constable & Robinson, London, 1986), of Lettres à Jean Marais (Albin Michel, Paris, 1987) and of Jean Cocteau: Erotic Drawings (edited by Annie Guédras, Taschen, 1999), trying to hide or elude the overwhelming homosexual nature in Cocteau's life and work can only be outrageously ridiculous, if not outright dishonest! As for labeling Cocteau as "bisexual" on account of a few flimsy failed platonic affairs with one or two women can only be some kind of joke... Also goes passed over in silence the ostracism and bullying he endured at the hands of homophobic surrealists like André Breton, Paul Éluard or Robert Desnos. —Orlando F (talk) 13:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  A hypocritical article 

message: Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that :File:Jean Cocteau b Meurisse 1923.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 5, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-07-05. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 02:48, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[:File:Jean Cocteau b Meurisse 1923.jpg]] to appear as POTD soon 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: One of the phonetic symbols in the UK pronunciation is wrong: the vowel o in the first syllable of Cocteau is given as the same inverted lowercase a as in the US pronunciation. It should in fact be an open ɔ, similar to the French pronunciation. Nuttyskin (talk) 17:15, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: User:CuttlefishJack, I notice you changed the references from the earlier biography which depicted Cocteau as somewhat right-leaning with those of a more recent biography that makes him seem more left-leaning. While adding this perspective is good, I don't think we should completely delete the earlier biography's perspective, especially since it was corroborated apparently by one of Junger's writings. --Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds 07:56, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: YellowDiamond, there's nothing wrong in itself with right-wing politics, and even if there was it should be noted here of course, I think the question is whether or not the book is arguing that Cocteau was right-wing because of his friendships, or if he had right-wing views himself (which he very well may have). I'll support reinstating it, but you could answer with some clarification? YouCanDoBetter (talk) 22:38, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand your comment, User:YouCanDoBetter. I'm not in a position to judge political stances, I just believe that the changes User:CuttlefishJack made unfairly prioritize one biography/perspective on Cocteau over another. I don't really care about offering examples of Cocteau's "Naturally right-leaning" politics, because the original version attributed that statement to Williamson as opposed to asserting it as objective fact. So I think it's fine to include as a scholarly perspective.Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds 03:30, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have a problem including it. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 04:07, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Politics