Talk:Old Apostolic Church

message: By reading the pages on www.oldapostoliclutheran.com I was amazed by the similarities between the two denominations: Old Apostolic Church (Africa) and Old Apostolic Lutheran Church. As far as I can establish, they have no ties with each other.  This proves the point that churches / denominations are spirit driven or spirit influenced -the question is: Which spirit? A visit to this website may be an eye opener to people trying to find out more about the Old Apostolic Church. 
Peet Moller  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.207.47.60 (talk) 14:03, August 20, 2007 (UTC) 
I am sick and tierd of people running the Old Apostolic Church down through ignorance.
I am an under deacon in the church and can confidently say- through experience, that this is the only way to truely know God which according to John 17: 3 is very importent.people who run us down should rather come and see first hand what it is we practice and what we believe before making any comments. We do not run any other faiths down because all faiths do good work. stop running us down! all we wish to do is serve God in spirit and in truth... if we believe this to be the apostolic way, so be it. Get a life!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.242.74.64 (talk) 11:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interesting similarities between the Old Apostolic Church (Africa) and Old Apostolic Lutheran Church  

message: Mr moller
you are obviously a very confused individual...
John 17 v 3 clearly states that in order to have life eternal we should know God and his only begotten son whom he 'has sent'
tell me my friend- where is your God and how well do you know him?
Do not run us down if you are not sure of your facts...
i am an under deacon in the old apostolic faith and can honestly say- for me, this is the only way to salvation.
don't critisize what you don't know, come see for yourself and experience God for the first time in your life.
you may e- mail me, i look forward to your corrispondence.
under deacon Esterhuizen  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.242.74.64 (talk) 11:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  moller comments 

message: This page should be used only for fact based information on the Old Apostolic Church.  I have added some information and sources.  It would be best to keep the discussion to the facts.  There is other places on the Internet to vent frustration about religious groups.  Wikipedia is not such a place for venting frustration or propaganda destribution.  Slandering should also be kept from this site.  
If you do not have anything good to state, do not state it.
Thanx
SaneSerenity  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SaneSerenity (talk • contribs) 10:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old Apostolic Church 

message: Please, when making changes, place the relevant sources.  Wikipedia is not a propaganda tool.
SaneSerenity (talk) 09:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Old Apostolic Church - Sources

message: Please note: There has been a lot of vandalism on this page by some disgruntled people who have placed comments on the article page.  
SaneSerenity (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 10:34, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: "An overseer is responsible for overseeing the overall operations of the overseer-ship." What is an "overseer-ship"? I'm going to step out on a limb here and guess that it what an overseer oversees. The Evangelist, however, is -- thankfully -- not evangelizing an evangel-ship. This is circular wording. What does the Qwertyizer do? The Qwertyizer qwertyizes the qwerty-ship, of course
Instead, the Evangelist in charge of "people who are still being ruled by an old Adam i.e desires of the flesh, are not being ruled by the holy spirit", "saving souls, as many as possible" and "to keep them with Godly love." This is all in-universe. To a member of this faith, it might all make perfect sense. Wikipedia, however, is aimed at the general reader. Someone with no previous knowledge of this particular faith -- perhaps with minimal knowledge of Christianity in general -- should be able to read and understand the article.
Further, the article should state objective truths. "Saving souls" is a belief. No one on Wikipedia saves souls any more than they achieve Nirvana or submits to Allah. A follower of this faith believes that it is not possible to submit to Allah. A Muslim believes that -- it is an in-universe statement.
It is very difficult -- and against Wikipedia's policies -- to take primary sources (such as the teachings and publications of a religion and its followers) and produce objective statements about that religion. Believers who try to do so inevitably become evangelists and apologists. Members of other religions who try to do so tend to emphasize differences from their faith, rather than discussing the essential facts. If you discuss ketchup with an unspoken devotion to tomato paste, you end up discussing vinegar and spices, neglecting to mention that ketchup is mostly tomatoes.
The solution here, is to summarize independent reliable sources. "Independent" here refers to objective writers from outside the religion and its opponents. We want sources that are trying to describe the religion, neither building it up nor tearing it down. By "reliable sources", we mean published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, as explained in more detail at WP:IRS.
Please note that it is unlikely that independent reliable sources will say everything you might want to say and are likely to say things that you feel are best omitted.
The more strongly you feel about this topic, the less likely you are to be able to write an objective article about it. - SummerPhDv2.0 14:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced verbal gymnastics 

message: As I have repeatedly tried to discuss above, all Wikipedia articles must be based on independent reliable sources, per our policies.
Sources from the church itself, its members, its officers, etc. are not independent. Please see WP:PST. Other than for the most basic, uncontroversial material, primary sources cannot be used and will be removed.
Sources that are not from publishers with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy are not reliable. Please see WP:IRS. Unreliable sources will be removed.
Sources which are not published, are vaguely cited or are otherwise unavailable might as well not exist -- they are not verifiable and will be removed.
Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia. This article should not try to present a detailed account of the history and beliefs of the church. If independent reliable sources do not discuss an aspect of the church, its history and beliefs, Wikipedia should not cover it either. 
Other sources have other problems, that I will note as I go along. - SummerPhDv2.0 14:28, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: Another article, Apostolic Church of South Africa – Apostle Unity, cites one of the primary sources cited here. I'll get to that one next. - SummerPhDv2.0 14:47, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Related