Talk:Pragmatism/Archive 1

message: Can you please be more specific as to your distress regarding the intro? I happen to be rather fond of it as is. Sam [Spade] 03:28, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, 'twasn't me, but I will say that "given goal" is, if not POV per se, at any rate wrong for the forms of pragmatism with which I'm familiar. No one goal, especially no one arbitrary goal, is the standard of pragmatic truth or can be on a Deweyan, Jamesian, etc. reading. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 04:28, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, if you notice I left out the given goal bit. It was just a bit of exteraneous ad-libbing on my part. I assume the current version is acceptable then? Sam [Spade] 07:43, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, the current version seems okay. Also, the guy who originally objected doesn't seem to have come back, so we can assume he's cool with it too. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 20:07, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: Oops. Spoke too soon. (Kukkurovaca's watchlist=too long). How about we loose the efficiency bit, which is a slight overstatement, and keep the "insistence on consequences" part, which I'm pretty sure shouldn't be objectionable. And I'll add a bit putting it in broader context. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 20:12, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Intro

message: From what I just read he used better and worse rather than right and wrong. Had a variety of strange opinions outside of any of this as well ;) Sam [Spade] 04:45, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, it's not that Quine rejects value per se, it's that certain of his positions lead to certain forms of relativism regarding value. He says, essentially, that individuals must decide for themselves by what standards to judge things. This isn't so terrible, but a lot of people get freaked out when you remove the foundations for debates over values and ethics and so forth. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 04:51, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

text: I think the situation is unclear.  On the one hand, pragmatists and neo-pragmatists have sort of adopted Quine, and he clearly shares a few doctrines in common with pragmatism.  On the other hand, Quine has little to no historical continuity with pragmatism, and his one essay on pragmatism ("The Pragmatists' Place in Empiricism") shows that he really doesn't understand the classical pragmatists.  Probably he should be left there, given the common association of Quine with pragmatism, but perhaps some kind of note is in order (on one page or the other)? --The hanged man 22:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Quine

message: But what is that foundation, anyways? I'm certain its the difficulty in reaching concensus on value which caused him to prefer an idiosyncratic measure. Sam [Spade] 04:56, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well sure, and I'm pretty anti-foundationalist myself. I'm inclined to agree with Quine at least functionally (i.e., I think Quine's relativistic account accurately reflects the course of human knowledge); I'm not sure that there aren't any common standards (or standards which should be held in common), though; I think I tend to side with James, who uses the concept of gambling to merge idiosyncratic and communal standards. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 06:16, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: musings

message: The formalism link doesn't go to a philosophical article on formalism - perhaps we could briefly explain formalism in this article? Zensufi 02:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formalism 

message: I would also say that Ayn Rand's Objectivism is another uniquely American philosophy.  It is known outside of America, but has only been influential in the USA.  It was, of course, born here as well and seems to be more relevant to American culture and values than to other countries.
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Ayn Rand is not generally considered a philosopher, perhaps she is better characterized as a "popularizer of philosophy" or a "public intellectual" in the vain Carl Sagan was a popularizer of science. The problem is that Ayn Rand is absent from the discussions, journal disputes, conferences, etc. which are the lifeblood of the institution of philosophy for the last 100 years. Far as I know she never published a work in the top philosophy journals, "Mind", "The Journal of Philosophy", etc. Not to say that is the definition of a philosopher, but it should make us suspicious. The next strike against her is that her books are largely ignored by philosophers today, and when I read them they seem outdated (even for the 1950's when she wrote). 
Most of Ayn Rand's exclusion from the philosophic world is of her own doing. She choose to ignore the philosophy of her day, and instead argue against outdated works (against "Locke") at a level of development more fitting the 1800's rather than the 1900's. 
Listen I enjoyed Ayn Rand a great deal, both her fiction and non-fiction. She is really one of the reasons I went into philosophy. However, once I got into the field I realized she really isn't a philosopher in the "strict" sense of the word. But don't take my word on it, ask your university professors if they consider Ayn Rand a full-fledged philosopher.
Ayn Rand is more in line with Emerson and Thoreau, two intellectuals whose “philosophy” was both American and priori to pragmatism. However, these two are not generally considered to be philosophers in the strict sense of the word, and their “philosophy” not a philosophy in the “strict” sense of the term. This is why pragmatism is often referred to as America’s first contribution to philosophy, or America’s first philosophic school. Because Emerson and Thoreau don’t count. They function more as public intellectuals, which is how I think Ayn Rand is considered.
I believe the article stated that pragmatism was the only uniquely American "school of thought" not the only uniquly American "philosophy".  Whether or not one considers american trancendentalism of objectivism "philosophies" in the strict sense of the word, they could justly be considered "schools of thought".207.157.121.50 01:46, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  American philosophy? 

message: I'm suspicious of this distinction.  Putnam and Rorty are usually lumped together in the "neo-pragmatist" category.  Is neo-classical pragmatist have anything to do with paleo-pragmatist, the label Rorty uses for the scholars of classical pragmatism that are constantly bugging him about his interpretations of the tradition?  Should it contain names like David Hildebrand, William T. Myers, Douglas Browning, etc.?  --The Hanged Man 22:00, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the difference between Rorty and Putnam is important, but they both diverge from classical pragmatism, and, if Hildebrand is right, in opposite directions.  Would you agree that Putnam probably belongs under neo-pragmatism, while someone like Haack or Hildebrand falls more squarely in the neo-classical realm?  --The Hanged Man 21:31, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neo-classical pragmatism vs. neo-pragmatism 

message: The pragmatic philosophy seems to me to be quite clear in the basics of buddhism, a philosophy based in action, not materialism or rationalism. The kalama sutta (http://www.cains.com/bucha/kalama.html) being a clear example of this, where Buddha clearly states that the actual consequences directly tell you what things are good and bad respectively.
Well, maybe...
AF: Yes but pragmatism at its core is not "actual consequences directly tell you what things are good and bad", that sounds like consequencalism (e.g. utilitarianism). Pragmatism is the following two doctrines: (1) 'actual (in the case of James and Schiller) / possible (in the case of Peirce) consequences tell you what things are true and false', and (2) actual (in the case of Schiller) / possible (in the case of James and Peirce) actions are the meanings  of beliefs, sentences and propositions' 
 
- atfyfe
I read through about half and skimmed about half of: http://spartan.ac.brocku.ca/~lward/James/James_1907/James_1907_04.html which I assume is what you're referring to. First of all let me say: phew, that guy is way way more longwinded than he needs to be :P 
But setting that aside, his explanation of the non-division of the many and the one is prevalent in buddhism and has been for thousands of years. I don't see which claims buddhism is supposed to make that this guy has a problem with. In its core buddhism makes four claims: 1. that everything is impermanent 2. that there is no self-abiding soul/personality/ego 3. that denial of the two previous facts causes a deep feeling of unsatisfaction (dukha) 4. that the way to accept 1 and 2 is to do some kind of meditative practice. 
Now, dogmatically (if such a thing can be said of buddhism) this is quite akin to putting Occam's Razor to human belief structures: "you believe in permanance? show me something that is permanent! you believe in a soul? show it to me!". If one cannot show it, then it is ignored (just like Gods in buddhism, same thing as a soul really). In any case, buddhism is fundamentally based in action, not belief or faith. By acting right and practicing yourself can something be achieved, not by praying or believing in some supernatural being. 
- boxed
: James admitted his own ignorance of Buddhism, but said (in Varieties of Religious Experience) "as I apprehend the Buddhistic  doctrine  of Karma, I agree in principle with that." [Postscript) Here's a fuller discussion.
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/shaw2.htm 
As to long-windedness, that's a matter of social context. In the text you've linked us to, James is replying in part to positions that were "live options" in his own day, but that likely seem dead to you, so his replies are more elaborate than (in the early 21st century) they 'need to be.' Which is hardly a defect of his. Social/academic contexts, too, are impermanent! --Christofurio 13:37, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
That's a very interesting document that does seem to argue my point quite clearly. At the very least this link should be supplied, maybe with a writeup with some kind of preamble in the form of "compare to buddhist philosophy", being vague but yet suggest the link to a reader?
- boxed 
I've made some changes along these lines. --Christofurio 15:57, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
::AF:I don't find the comparison between James and Buddhism all that compelling, but that doesn't really matter. What does matter is that such a comparison is not the widespread opinion of the academic community. For example, the very long and detailed examination of James' work by Gerald E. Myers "William James: His Life and Thought" has no mention of Buddhism in the index. Susan Haack, in her intro to Pragmatism class, never mentions such similarities (and what better standard do we have for what should be included in the "pragmatism" entry then what the modern pragmatist philosophers teach in their intro classes on the subject). Furthermore, not every doctrine held by James and Peirce is a part of their pragmatism. For example, James himself specifically argued that his Will to Believe doctrine and his radical empiricism were not a part of his pragmatism. Any similarities between buddhism and those doctrines has nothing to do with pragmatism. Even if James did accept karma, he would be the first to tell you it isn't part of pragmatism! Lastly, finding an article that "does seem to argue my point quite clearly" does not mean it should be included in the entry on 'pragmatism'. You may see simliarities between pragmatism, but the place to argue this point is in academic journals. - atfyfe
:::wikipedia isn't paper, and it isn't a college course, either. We can do more than present the outline of a textbook for undergrads. I don't think a pragmatism/Buddhism link should be central to the presentation, but it has respectable authority behind it, including some of those other works cited in the one to which I've linked you, and it should be cited here as one possible line of thought about pragmatism. --Christofurio 14:11, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
:::Call me crazy, but I think James accepts cause and effect, the sanskrit word for which is "karma". That the widespread opinion (specifically of americans) on the matter is that pragmatism was an american invention and a "unique american philosophy" (as the wikipedia article states) does seem to make the point that these people wish to distance themselves from buddhism. I can understand this because buddhism is the target of much New Age pseudoscientific and pseudoreligious armwaving. Local cultural aspects like spirits, personal reincarnation (as opposed to karmic reinkarnation, which is just "things I do today have consequences for tomorrow"), belief in various gods etc, are often confused with the actual buddhist philosophy. This shouldn't distract from the fact that the Kalama Sutra from the Pali Canon (which is recognized as canon by all buddhists) is arguing pragmatism as good as any pragmatic text I have seen.  --boxed 2005-09-01
::::AF:It has been a while, so I just want to re-voice my objection to the Buddhism stuff being spoken about in this entry. The link between pragmatism and Buddhism is not "one possible line of thought about pragmatism" it is false. There is no link between the two, except for the infinite number irrelevant ways that all things in the universe are linked (pragmatism and Buddhism both exist on the Earth, they both had adherents that sneezed, they both used the phrase 'cause and effect', etc.). Secondly, the outside sources linked to are extremely weak. One essay make no connection to pragmatism but only to works of William James that James himself explicitly states are not connected to his pragmatism. No to mention the fact the entry explicitly states James was ignorant of Buddhism. The other article does try to make a connection between Buddhism and pramgatism, but is wildly off-base. I know that Christofurio has been able to cite one academic papers published supporting his claim of the connection (only one, because one of the papers has to do with James but not pragmatism); but it strikes me as obvious that this is just someone trying to draw a connection that is just not there. I don't think this is an academicly debated topic, I think one professor wrote one paper which will be forgotten and ignored forever by pragmatist scholars. Lastly, I will "call [you] crazy" boxed, just because James "accepts cause and effect" does not make him a Buddhist. Under that logic we ought to go add "is a Buddhist" to just about every philosopher in history. The concepts of "cause and effect" are accepted by everyone, and furthermore do not amount to the same thing as the concept of Karma but is instead very, very different. Oh, and the claim that "pragmatism was an american invention and a unique american philosophy" is because that is how pragmatism was recieved when it was invented. In the late 1800's american philosophy was not respected, and had yet to contribute any great movement to philosophy. Pragmatism was that movement. This has nothing to do with distancing pragmatism from Buddhism. I am not disrespecting Buddhism here, I am just saying that the connection stated in this article is false. Since no one has agreed with me, I have left the section untouched since my initial attempt to delete it. But I would hope some other philosopy students on Wikipedia will come to my aid in voting to delete this falsehood from the entry on "pragmatism".(Atfyfe 20:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pragmatic philosophy in buddhism? 

message: * JA: I have of late found it needful to give express attention to some principles of attribution that I used to think were tacitly understood.  Here is my current formulation:
 Truth In Labeling
 
 1.  When we say "P states a Q-theory of R",
     then Q should be a term that P uses
     in stating said theory of R.
 
 2.  When we say "P maintains a Q-theory of R",
     then Q should be a term that P actually uses,
     characteristically and as a matter of principle,
     in maintaining P's theory of R.
 
 3.  When we want to report the fact that source S describes
     P's theory of R as a T-theory of R, then we should say
     "S describes P's theory of R as a T-theory of R".
 
 TIL Jon Awbrey 16:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Truth In Labeling

message: * JA: I try to keep article-related discussions on the article talk pages, as it's hard to remember what a demi-discussion on a user talk page was all about a few weeks later.  It's too late to answer in full tonight, but I'll copy this query here and pick it up again tomorrow.  One thing that might help in the meantime is a more precise definition of what the querent means by "verificationism".  I know how the term has been used by some analytic philosophers in the past, and how it has been used more rhetorically against pragmatism, but when I looked at the article on Verificationist earlier today I found it very vague.  Jon Awbrey 05:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Peirce as a Verificationist