Talk:Lobotomy

message: Changed wording to "mainstream procedure in some Western countries." Previously it had suggested that it was only so in the United States, even though the article mentions later that it was performed more often in the UK and Scandinavia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Treeemont (talk • contribs) 18:59, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Wording of lead section

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Lobotomy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/archive/documents/19770523.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:40, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Lobotomy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100323015412/http://facstaff.unca.edu/ddiefenb/lobotomy.html to http://facstaff.unca.edu/ddiefenb/lobotomy.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:34, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following are not rules for acceptability of a reference:
1) A source must be "scholarly".
2) No undergrad textbooks.
3) No tertiary sources.
In fact, reliability is the only criterion (apart from applicability of course).  Reliability is determined de facto by consensus of relatively knowledgeable editors, not by any of those non-existent black-and-white rules.  Secondary sources are required for establishing notability.  Both primary and secondary sources may be used for establishing factuality.  "Tertiaryness" is moot because almost all well-accepted secondary sources are actually tertiary or more.  There are no rules regarding "scholarly = good" or "undergrad text = bad".
The subject source is:
I removed a tag maligning that source as not being good enough because is was not "scholarly".
I also removed some associated hidden text which incorrectly declared a preference for "scholarly sources".
The original tag and hidden text had been placed by EEng.  Confronted with removal of his tag and his hidden text, EEng has been replacing it by making up a new fake-rule each time.  First it was "no undergrad text books", and when that didn't work, it was "no tertiary sources".
EEng, you've obviously decided the source is unreliable, but the reasons you've given are weak, nill, null, and faked.  If the ref is crap, then give a good reason and I won't have a problem with killing it.  But, you need give better reasons than you have so far.
73.119.161.105 (talk) 19:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Please see WP:MEDRS. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:46, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

text: You need to do more than take a glance at WP:MEDRS and pick the statement out of context that you think supports your point of view. No, it's not true that WP:MEDRS is "no different than the requirements for any statement in WP". There is an emphasis on "literature reviews or systematic reviews found in medical journals, specialist academic or professional books, and medical guidelines or position statements published by major health organizations". The template that you have edit warred to take out does not remove the existing source; it simply asks for a better source that conforms better to WP:MEDRS. Sundayclose (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

text: Secondary sources are always preferred over tertiary, but for information that has been in textbooks for decades, locating good secondary sources can be more trouble than it is worth.  I don't agree with tagging sentences merely because the source is tertiary.  However an editor who wants to go to the trouble of locating secondary sources for this sort of information is certainly welcome to do so. Looie496 (talk) 14:39, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fake (made-up) rules for references. 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Lobotomy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130117044606/http://dura.stanford.edu/Articles/Psychosurgery.pdf to http://dura.stanford.edu/Articles/Psychosurgery.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080526000558/http://www.umaine.edu/jmb/archives/volume17/17_1_1996winter.html to http://www.umaine.edu/jmb/archives/volume17/17_1_1996winter.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:06, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: The wording of this sentence at the end of the introduction sounds very opinionated: "Today, lobotomy has become a disparaged procedure, a byword for medical barbarism and an exemplary instance of the medical trampling of patients' rights." I recommend the wording be changed, but think others' opinions on the sentence need to be heard as well. ThatGuyWelbert (talk) 18:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Two comments: First, if you've ever been around several people who have been lobotomized you might not feel very strongly that it's an overstatement. And there are a number of high-profile disastrous examples of the effects of lobotomy; see Rosemary Kennedy for just one example. Secondly, there is some sourced information later in the article that provides some support for the statement, although the lead might need to be changed to conform more closely to it. Do you have suggested rewording? And remember, it needs to be reliably sourced, either in the lead or later in the article. By the way, if it's OK with you I'd like to move your comment and my comment to a new section at the bottom of the page because the current section was created five years ago; new sections always go at the bottom. Sundayclose (talk) 21:56, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no doubt that the wording is appropriate. Lobotomy was a uniquely grotesque chapter in medical history, a mass delusion which held much of the profession in thrall for almost two decades. Certainly not at the level of the Nazi medical experiments, but not more than a few notches down either. If the current sources don't fully support the wording then no doubt better sourcing can be found. EEng 22:12, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Wording of lead section (2)

message: I know the editors of this article have a lot of issues with inappropriate additions to the literature and film section. I added the film The Mountain, but if you decide it doesn't meet your standards after reviewing my edit, you can remove, and I apologize for adding to your frustration. However, I do think the film is significant and belongs here because lobotomization is the focus of the entire movie, and the movie makes a thematic statement about the practice.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C4A:57F:FF6A:B856:106B:A0D:E4E7 (talk) 05:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: See the criterion proposed and discussed at Talk:Lobotomy/Archive_2#In-pop-cult/literary_portrayals/etc._material. EEng 07:06, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Mountain 

message: @User:Sundayclose: You explained your revert as follows "Not an improvement". But there is the word "improvement" in both versions. Could you, please, be more specific? Do you mean the word "improvement" or that my edit did not improve the article? 85.193.228.103 (talk) 01:09, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I wasn't referring to the word "improvement" in the article. I meant that your rewording was not an improvement from the previous version. Sundayclose (talk) 01:32, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps your edit summary could stand some improvement. EEng 02:18, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps, although I've used that edit summary at other times without any confusion. If the word "improvement" wasn't in the text being edited there wouldn't have been any confusion. Forgive me for not being meticulously attentive. Sundayclose (talk) 02:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: You might want to take your "I'm kidding" detector in for recalibration. EEng 04:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I was kidding about your kidding, of course. That's kidding squared to mathematicians. Sundayclose (talk) 04:16, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm kidding! (That's kidding factorial.) EEng 04:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

text: @User:Sundayclose: Is not a more concise wording an improvement? 85.193.228.103 (talk) 02:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Not if the wording is less clear. Concise sometimes is better, but not always. Sundayclose (talk) 02:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree, but is my version less clear? Could you, please, be more specific? 85.193.228.103 (talk) 02:59, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Could you be more specific about how your version is more clear, less awkardly worded. Sundayclose (talk) 03:00, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The burden of proof is on you. But notice that my version is just much shorter. My edit summary reads: "redundancy deleted; more concise", not "better clarity". So I do not have to prove that the clarity is better. Is not a shorter wording a good enough reason? 85.193.228.103 (talk) 03:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No, consensus is required if your edit is challenged. The current version has been in the article more than six years, making it the implicit consensus. A new consensus is needed if a new version is challenged. If enough editors support your edit, I'll accept it. Right now, it's just you and me. You think that the conciseness of your edit is sufficient. I disagree, and I think that your edit is more awkwardly worded. I assume you disagree. This is a disagreement about content. The next step is consensus. I'll be happy to consider (but not necessarily accept) your explanation about how your edit is more clear and less awkward if you want to present it. Otherwise we wait for more opinions. Sundayclose (talk) 03:59, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I cut the baby in two. EEng 04:07, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I accept that. Far be it from me to disagree with the judgement of Solomon. Sundayclose (talk) 04:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

text: @User:Sundayclose: I wrote only that my version was shorter. Isn't it? Where did I write that my version was "more clear and less awkward"? Nowhere. So why should I prove it? The mere fact that my version is shorter should be enough to accept it, unless you prove that my version is less clear or more awkward. 85.193.228.103 (talk) 17:04, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The criterion for accepting an edit isn't that the edit match your edit summary, but rather that it improve the article (or at least not make it worse). Any way, the question is moot given that my version's even better (that's IMHO of course). EEng 19:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: @User:EEng#s: As for the criterion, it is obvious, and you are absolutely right, but your added sentence, combined with the existing one, makes the text even more redundant. Anyway, thanks for the discussion :-) 85.193.228.103 (talk) 23:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

text:  You seem to have a misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works. If there is a long-established consensus and an editor challenges that consensus (as you did), there has to be a new consensus established to make the change. That's true regardless of whether your edit is shorter, longer, clearer, less clear, more awkward or less awkward. So the bottom line: if you want to change the wording, there needs to be a new consensus, and right now that is not the case. Please take a few minutes to read WP:CON. I have accepted  rewording. If you disagree with that rewording, please express your opinion here and all of us can then discuss. But your preferred version has no support except your own. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 18:23, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not an improvement? 

message: EEng reverted my change splitting the introductory paragraph into two separate pieces. 
This is how it read before:
:A lobotomy, or leucotomy, is a form of psychosurgery, a neurosurgical treatment of a mental disorder that involves severing connections in the brain's prefrontal cortex.[2] The surgery results in most of the connections to and from the prefrontal cortex, the anterior part of the frontal lobes of the brain, being severed. It was used for treating mental disorders and occasionally other conditions as a mainstream procedure in some Western countries for more than two decades, despite general recognition of frequent and serious side effects. Some patients improved in some ways after the operation, but complications and impairments – sometimes severe – were frequent. The procedure was controversial from its initial use, in part due to the balance between benefits and risks. It is mostly rejected as an inhumane form of treatment now, to preserve patients' rights.[3] 
This is how it reads now:
:A lobotomy, or leucotomy, is a form of psychosurgery, a neurosurgical treatment of a mental disorder that involves severing connections in the brain's prefrontal cortex.[2] The surgery results in most of the connections to and from the prefrontal cortex, the anterior part of the frontal lobes of the brain, being severed.
:In the past, the surgery was used for treating mental disorders and occasionally other conditions as a mainstream procedure in some Western countries for more than two decades, despite general recognition of frequent and serious side effects. Some patients improved in some ways after the operation, but complications and impairments – sometimes severe – were frequent. The procedure was controversial from its initial use, in part due to the balance between benefits and risks. It is mostly rejected as an inhumane form of treatment now, to preserve patients' rights.[3]
The question is... which is better? 
-- RockstoneSend me a message! 02:15, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed my mind -- your version's better. EEng 04:11, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting the introductory paragraph 

message: Under Development -> Frontal Lobes, there is a sentence which starts with "That Moniz". I am not sure if this is intended. Shoesoft93 (talk) 16:39, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Fixed, thanks. EEng 16:57, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  That Moniz 

message: I believe I may have found a source for the challenged quote in the article that calls lobotomies "an astounding error of judgement". According to the book Coercion as Cure, the quote can be attributed to Swedish Neuroscientist and Nobel laureate Torsten Wiesel.
 Apologies if I used the wrong format for citations. 50.234.207.26 (talk) 10:21, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Good find! I've added it to the article. EEng 06:12, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  "An astounding error of judgement" quote 

message: The article says that: "Frontal lobe surgery, including lobotomy, is the second most common surgery for epilepsy to this day, and usually done on one side of the brain, unlike lobotomies for psychiatric disorder which were done on both sides of the brain,"  while the source given for the claim says that "Although extensive frontal lobectomy (eFL) is a common surgical procedure for intractable frontal lobe epilepsy (FLE),"
The top of the article says that a "Lobotomy" should not be confused with a "Lobectomy", and looking at the articles about epilepsy, I can find no mention of lobotomies being done today. So, did I get something wrong or was there a mix up between lobectomies and lobotomies? Nordtman (talk) 18:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. I removed that sentence. Lobectomy briefly mentions the brain and links to Anterior temporal lobectomy, which discusses epilepsy. Thanks for pointing this out. Sundayclose (talk) 19:57, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second most common surgery? 

message: That >60% of US lobotomy patients were women is well documented. Hugh Kaye's article (https://www.attitude.co.uk/culture/sexuality/the-dark-gay-history-of-lobotomies-and-walter-jackson-freeman-ii-419069/) citing here claims 40% of US patients were gay men. This implies that 100% of US lobotomized men were gay. Roughly 18,000 US lobotomies were performed in the years 1949-1951, mostly in state mental hospitals. Men were not in those hospitals because they were gay. Kaye is a disreputable source. Bstorage (talk) 18:10, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay men lobotomy numbers