Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 4

message: Can someone please clear up those "citation needed" tags by clarifying references, or whatever? It's really an eyesore to read like this, honestly. Mr Tan 04:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Per WP:V, any statement which is not verified upon request can be removed. If those tags have been there for a while, the statements should probably be pulled from the article. -Visviva 04:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: citation needed tags

message: I think the image use in this article is WAY out of hand. I can see using 3-4 of the maps, but there are at least 10-12 maps right now. A bit on the overkill side, IMHO. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i'd have to agree. don't remember whether it's in talk here and/or sea of japan dispute, but map wars inevitably end badly, because there's no end to the number of maps that could be added by either side. if significant, the information is better integrated into the text content, imho. perhaps, if someone really wants, a separate gallery page could be linked from here. Appleby 05:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image use in article

message: I have closed the RFD nomination as a speedy keep. As the stated rationale was that the redirect needed to be deleted for Dokdo to be moved back, this is not a valid case for RFD. Page renames belong at Wikipedia:Requested moves instead. Thanks. -JLaTondre 12:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Let's hope the issue gets resolved that way. Rōnin 14:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFD 

message: The following passage from Wikipedia:Naming conflict may be relevant here:   
   
:Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name. ...   
   
:Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Cabindans use the term in a descriptive sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a prescriptive approach, arguing that this usage should not be allowed.   
   
:Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide.   
   
:In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.   
   
:In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.   
   
Sekicho 17:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your opinion is very interesting. I agree with your opinion. I also think that the use of the title of "Dokdo" or "Senkaku" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. But the difficult point is that the subject-change is expected to affect the dispute. For example, if the name of "Dokdo" is decided, Korean may insist that their claim about the islands is justified by Wikipedia. That is, the change of the subject may be used for shaping international opinion. In fact, in this note someone cite use of the label of "Dokdo" in some maps as the evidence of common-use of "Dokdo". Similar thing is expected to be possible about Japanese and "Senkaku". I want to obey your opinion, but I worry such situations. Of course, my worry may not be related to the determination of the subject, but I wrote this story because I want you to know background of a flood of single-side opinion base on point of Japanese view in this vote. I can not support such a single-side opinion, but I can understand their worry. Reito-maguro 20:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think so, too. Therefore, you should write by "Liancourt Rocks" of an English name impartially. It is not Korean name "Dokdo" or Japanese name "Takeshima", either. Something to say is in each other.--Celldea 23:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I think this supports dokdo and senkaku. Janviermichelle 02:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rule of reality 

message: Dokdo moved to Liancourt Rocks by the vote on April 25, 2005. 　 
 
Sir Edgar requested to the name problem of Senkaku Islands and requested the change in the name of Liancourt Rocks.  
Senkaku Islands and Liancourt Rocks have a quite different background. This request was supported by users who edited the article on Korea.  
The mutual agreement of Liancourt Rocks contributed to a peaceful edit.  
Why does Sir Edgar relate Liancourt Rocks to the name problem of Senkaku Islands? --Kamosuke 13:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the structure of this vote was very poor. It should have been a single vote, asking editors of both articles for their opinion on which convention is better. Disputing the Senkaku name and simultaneously using it as a justification for the Dokdo name was a bad idea. Maybe we should hold one unified vote, sock puppet-free? - Sekicho 14:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Since Reito-Maguro has asked the same question, I'm going to provide my response at the bottom of the page. I do this partly because this discussion page is becoming difficult to monitor as comments are placed here and there.--Sir Edgar 23:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Agreement on April 25, 2005

message: I wish I had seen this discussion earlier. It wasn't brought to my attention until appleby edited the Sea of Japan article. I must say that i STRONGLY oppose the name change to Dokdo for this article. Why? because this is the English section of Wikipedia, not the korean or the japanese or the international section. One user wrote that since Korea owns the rocks, then it should be called Dokdo in Wikipedia. Well, i don't give a flying sh*t who owns those rocks, wikipedia is all about NPOV and by calling these rocks by anything other than the neutral English name is POV. Same with the pinnacle islands. It is highly Korean pov to call those rocks dokdo and it is highly japanese pov to call them Takeshima. Also, wikipedia is not a democracy and you can not vote in a pov name just because there are enough people that hold that pov who edit wikipedia. A neutral, ENGLISH name must be used for all articles. Masterhatch 19:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: i think your comments are more relevant to Talk:Senkaku Islands, which was the catalyst for the renaming discussion here. if that article applies your proposed principle, i'm sure most people will have no problem renaming this article to be consistent. Appleby 19:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have made my opinion quite clear there. Thanks appleby Masterhatch 19:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And who gets to decide what constitutes a neutral English name? "Liancourt Rocks" is a direct translation of a French name. Rōnin 22:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't understand your question. It is not for us to decide. It has already been decided. Have a look at some encyclopaedias and the CIA fact site. True it derives from the french, but so are so many English words, such as "beautiful". Very few English words derive from either Korean or Japanese. I can think of taekwondo and tsunami off hand, but there aren't many. Liancourt Rocks is the perfect neutral name because if favours neither Korea nor Japan. Since this is the English section of wikipedia, we should be using the English names. This is not a battle ground between the japanese and Koreans. Let them battle elsewhere and let wikipedia remain neutral. Masterhatch 23:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Unfortunately, the CIA website describes the current situation of the problem more and more like what Japanese would want to take the problem with. Japan allegedly is lobbying hard to influence the contents. So please don't be too dependent on the CIA website. Liancourt Rocks is beneficial to Japan, and nothing good to Korea. Is the name still neutral? Furthremore, more importantly, Liancourt Rocks has been rarely used until recently, as Quelpart for Cheju island and Hamilton for Keo-je island. It's kind of an insult for Korean. I think Dokto is more appropriate for the title. ginnre 23:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

text: "Dokdo" and "Senkaku Islands" are not neutral names. They are the names given by the governing authority and more commonly used than "Liancourt Rocks" or "Pinnacle Islands". The previous situation having "Liancourt Rocks" and "Senkaku Islands" was not only unfair, but an inconsistent application of this supposed search for neutrality. Now both articles are equally biased and have more commonly used names.--Sir Edgar 01:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the? 

message: This page was recently the subject of the most ill-judged move in Wikipedia history; I've moved it back to Dokdo and move protected it. (There is a reason why we discuss moves first). HenryFlower 11:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed the title to a more appropriate one. I agree, Henry Flower, please don't vandalize. (Wikimachine 13:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please Do Not Move 

message: "They were released in 1965, under exchange condition with releasing 472 Korean prisoners who perpetrated crimes in Japan."
----
I feel that there is a need for a Korean point of view for this statement to make it neutral. 
To my knowledge, those Koreans who were accused of doing crimes in Japan were related to Independent Army movement. 
Additionally, I don't know how to archive this, but somebody needs to archive this discussion. Thanks. (Wikimachine 14:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I previously say that my writing may be not proper reference. From a source in Japanease, the prisoners were planed to be order the deportation of Japan. Thus they would be released by the deportation, without the exchange. In such a case, they are illegal immigrants or overstaying people based on ordinary sense, are't they? In fact the government of Korea made a request of permanent residents of Japan for them. In Japanese documents on www I can not find any accurate reason why they were taken into custody. I can not also find the relation with Independent Army. I have no rational idea why the government of Korea requested permanent residents of Japan for Independent Army.Reito-maguro 19:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  2 Requests 

message: The article states that a number of fishermen were detained in Korea "as hostages". Do we have factual basis for that, or would it be better to remove the "as hostages" bit? Rōnin 02:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What kind of textbook did you use in school? saihiro?Oyo321 07:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oyo321, you should not stir up his resentment. Reito-maguro 10:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: saihiro, here we do not discuss what you mentioned. Reito-maguro 08:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  as hostages? 

message: Man this page is overloading way too much. My lagging computer can't keep up. I suggest we put this in the archives. Ken ta987 07:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Shall I make an archive? Can I bring the articles into the archive 4, from "1 POV" to "18 What the?" where discussions were closed almostly? Reito-maguro 11:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. (Wikimachine 12:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Up to "18 What the?"? No. --Saintjust 13:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Saintjust, Why? Please let me know your opinion. Reito-maguro 13:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: reito thatd be helpful. Yes. Oyo321 14:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I would like to wait for making consensus in this entry, for the next 2-3 days, because there is a opinion of "No". Thanks. Reito-maguro 16:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Page Please 

message: Doesn't the headline of "Wikiproject Japan" mislead to people that this article is trying to improve Japan and make the article into Japanese. Don't we need to put up a "Wikiproject Korea"? I think we need to do something about the Wikiproject Japan title. Good friend100 14:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good friend100, your suggestion is based only on a Korea POV. Such suggestion is not acceptable for many wikipedians. Do you want to call additional chaos on this article? Thanks. Reito-maguro 14:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that both "Korean portal" and "Japan Wikiproject" are needed. Undirstanding of sights from both sides is meaningful in the discussion of this article. Thanks. Reito-maguro 18:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wkiproject Japan 

message: I started a discussion a few days ago but unfortunately, I don't think anybody got the message. Anyways, i have read some users saying that "because this is English Wikipedia the name of the article should be Liancourt Rocks". I don't think this is true becaus first of all the internet is not restricted to only English speaking countries or English speaking people. The internet is an international thing. Also, more people are speaking English and English is becoming a global language. I can't believe some people think that the English Wikipedia is restricted to English users. Good friend100 14:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dou you means that subject of encyclopedia in English can be written in other language?  In this poll  "Dokdo" was considered as one of names in English. If your suggesion is right, this reason is not meaningful. Reito-maguro 14:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think you are right, Good friend100. The internet is an international property and must not not restricted to only English speaking people, and also, Korean speaking people. Then, what you want? Should we make an new English name for the Liancourt Rocks? -- Himawarichan 14:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think that it is only one of proper reasoning. The name is justified by other reasons. For example the name has rich history and is used commonly in English. Only the reason does not restricts other name, but it is needed. It is also said about "Dokdo" or "Takeshima". Reito-maguro 18:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I think you are getting the wrong message, I don't mean that the name "Liancourt Rocks" should be taken off, I just want to let people know that the words "Dokdo" and "Takeshima" are valid names. Just because they are not "English names" does not mean they cannot be used in the article. Good friend100 22:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification 2 

message: A Japanese Wikipedian by the name Opp has been running around this entire page, obliteratng references to the name Dokdo, verifiable ancient records and online sources, and making original research based on his own personal observations. He should be at the very least prevented from editing this page in consideration of these examples of vandalism:
:1. Removed ", records from the Joseon Dynasty (1392~1910) such as the Man'gi yoram ("Handbook of State Affairs") from 1808 quotes the Yojiji ("Gazette") in its chapter on military adminstration that "Usando and Dokdo all belonged to Usan-guk." in the section "The Three Kingdoms Period." - These sources are records and thus belong to the article.
:2. Deleted "(the former Korean name for Dokdo)" and "but the islet is in its proper position." - both are verified facts.
:3. Deleted "Dokdo" from "both Ulleung-do and Dokdo."
:4. Deleted "(Dokdo)" from "the two islands of Usando (Dokdo) and Ulleung-do."
:5. Deleted "s" from "islands" to falsify the fact that both Ulleung-do and Dokdo were evacuated and make it as if only Ulleungdo had been inhabited.
:6. Removed "This is a contradiction of the terra nullius policy adopted later by Shimane Prefecture in 1904 (noted below)." - This a fact; Opp dos not have the right to deny such information.
:7. Removed "The South Korean government insists that the area of "Ulleung-do" included Dokdo." and leaves the paragraph with only the Japanese viewpoint.
:8. Entirely removed "Following the diplomatic spat in the seventeenth century, the Sangoku setsujozu ("A Map of Three Adjoining Countries"), a map attached to the Sanggoku tsuran zusetsu ("An Illustrated General Survey of Three Countries") was compiled by Hayashi Shihei (1738-1793) and published in 1785. The map shows international boundaries and foreign countries in different colors: Korea is in yellow and Japan in green. On the map Ullungdo and Tokdo are shown in their correct positions in yellow. Alongside the islands Hayashi wrote, "Korea's possessions.""- a verifiable reference that should not be deleted  unless proved to be invalid.
:9. Added "Howeve, these activities by private person such as Ahn Yong-bok, cannot be seen as effective control in international law." - which is basically blatant Japanese POV. Besides, if the Tokuwaga Shogunate made a document that acknowledged Korean territory, that is tantamount to an agreement or understanding, something that is to be honored according to international law.
:10. Simply removes "(In any case, the previously-held claim of terra nullius creates a contradiction in the Japanese argument: if the islands had been Japanese territory since 1618, the terra nullius policy would have been incorrect, while if the terra nullius policy had been right, the Japanese claim of historical ownership over the islets would be void.)" - obviously because this he considers to damaging to the Japanese argument. Nevertheless, it does not express an opinion but merely points out a cotradiction in the Japanese argument - thus a fact and therefore fitting to this article.
Considering what Opp has been trying to do to this article, it is clear that he has every intention to distort, omit, and pervert references to Korean terminology, cartography, and historiography in regard to Dokdo (examples 1~8). He also makes use of original research and inserts adds his own viewpoints (examples 9,10). Japanese POV has no place anywhere on this encyclopedia and thus all users of Wikipedia should oppose to Opp efforts to deny history. Thus I strongly suggest that Opp be prohibited from vandalizing this page until he can cite a logical motive to delete what are facts/references that perfectly belong to this article.--Jh.daniell 11:09, 5 June 2006 (GMT+9:00-Tokyo)
Strongly Support: By all means, that's one less painful POV to handle. (Wikimachine 22:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On [[User:Opp|Opp]]'s Edits 

message: at least some of the new editors constantly reverting this and related pages have been confirmed to be sockpuppets of User:Bright888 and have been blocked: . perhaps page protection is the next step if this continues. Appleby 04:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great! Just as I said... Mobilization from the Japanese POV editors. This is why we can't have another vote. (Wikimachine 22:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow this is not getting funny anymore, including the confirmation of a Japanese vandalizer in the above discussion section. I agree we should protect the page and conduct further investigation for more sockpuppets. Good friend100 22:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  puppet show 

message: As you can see above, there are many people against moving the article to Dokdo. But somehow those opinions are ignored. Let's start a vote all over again.
Dokdo → Liancourt Rocks Michael Friedrich 06:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not Korean... Rōnin 11:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hermeneus and his ridiculous accusations. Typical Japanese behavior- wrongly accuse others of what they actually do. The Japanese posting on this Talk page should be ashamed of themselves. Tsk. Tsk. It is an embarassing day to be Japanese.--222.233.205.166 13:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hermeneus, I'm going to let this one go because I do recall having called you "a Japanese rightist" before and I apologize for that (even though I believe this is something that you have as a self-proclamation somewhere). So, we're even. But I would like to ask you to refrain from name-calling per Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I'm going to state this just once: I am not "Korean" and I am not a "Korea apologist". You may get this impression because I have corrected unfair references about Korea in Japan articles, especially when it comes to ancient history and the ordering of names and whatnot. But this is because I have a deep interest in the two countries. And, in the process of studying their relationship, I have noticed inconsistencies like using the terms "China", "Japan", and "the Korean peninsula" together in the same sentence. I believe Japan has the upper hand vis-a-vis Korea. This is because Japan is far more advanced, has a better and longer relationship with the West (especially the U.S.), and is better at PR. I will continue to edit Japan/Korea articles to help improve them. But, for now, I think I'm going to stay out of this one. It's too ugly and I'm offended by all the accusations.--Sir Edgar 00:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I am not voting on this, further strengthening its invalidity. Not at all, especially when there has been mobilization from the Japanese side. (Wikimachine 16:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hermanaus that not cool. Oyo321 00:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Hello Rheo1905, its great to have another user discussing about the article. One thing to remember is that we should be polite in this discussion and not bad mouth anybody here without good reasons. If you want to discuss your thoughts or topics then it would be a good idea to start under a new heading. Good friend100 02:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Oyo this is not an internet forum, please do not provoke Korean and/or Japanese users here because that question would be very sensitive to some people and it would not improve relations between any Koreans or Japanese users here. That kind of question is irrevelent and not important not only is it rude. We are not here to start wars on Wikipedia and bad mouth each other. I strongly suggest we do not go any furthur into this discussion you just opened up. Good friend100 02:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested Move 2 

message: This is just one of my thoughts, but I've got a big question. Is,or will any type of military combat occur out of the rock disputes? Between South Korea and Japan. In history, some action has occured, including the sinking of a Japanese naval ship by Korean mortar. What do you think? Oyo321 00:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oyo this is not an internet forum, please do not provoke Korean and/or Japanese users here because that question would be very sensitive to some people and it would not improve relations between any Koreans or Japanese users here. That kind of question is irrevelent and not important not only is it rude. We are not here to start wars on Wikipedia and bad mouth each other. I strongly suggest we do not go any furthur into this discussion you just opened up. Good friend100 02:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Military Action

message: there is a related discussion and poll on the naming of one of the features around dokdo, currently underway at Talk:Tsushima Basin. please participate if interested. only editors with at least 100 previous edits & one-month history will be able to vote. Appleby 06:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: thanks for the notice. Good friend100 02:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  notice of poll 

message: I hear this everyday. Dokdo and Takeshima are bull. They're foreign. Lets name the rocks Liancourt since that is most neutral. I do agree that articles in debate must be kept neutral, to satisfy users new and old. But wikipedia is a historical information site. Everything that gets edited must be sure to be historically true, or Wikipedia will be blamed for giving wrong information to users, as was a couple months ago. Dokdo is the most common and most historically correct name of the rocks. Liancourt is uncommon, and Takeshima was named by Japan in order to try and take the island. 
The reason why Takeshima is becoming a more common name is national supremacy and recognition over South Korea. I hope everybody agrees, that, in history, stronger, more powerful and distinguished nations get the "right" to name a surrounding landmark or body of water. It always has been that way. 
Because Japan is more known around the world, most people think that Japan must be able to name Sea of Japan. Japan must name Dokdo, if not own it. Take a look at the Gulf  of Mexico. If before the Gulf was named, and  Mexico named it the Gulf of Mexico, and Cuba stepped in and said "we want to name the gulf," would anybody listen to them? No one would give a squat, the way nobody would probably give a squat to South Korea.
Oyo321 23:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your suggestion in 1st paragraph contains a Korea POV. It is histrical truth only in Korea. History of other countries about this islands should not be ignoured. Reito-maguro 00:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This new discussion is Japan POV. "nobody would probably give a squat to South Korea" I find this remark insulting. Good friend100 02:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The point seems to be that the Korean presentation of historical sources tend to use only parts that are favorable to their claim and conveniently omit parts that are inconsistent with their claim, consequently making their biased interpretation of them possible. --222.3.73.246 02:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NEUTRALITY MUST BE MAINTAINED, BUT HISTORICAL TRUTH IS MORE VITAL TO WIKIPEDIA

message: "Takeshima Tokai Yuraiki Bassho Hikae, written by Ōya Kyuemon, records that in 1618 the Tokugawa Shogunate granted the Ōya and Murakawa families of Yonago fishing rights, and in 1661, feudal tenure, of "Takeshima", which then referred to Ulleung-do. On the way to Ulleung-do, Japanese fishermen sometimes used the islets, then called in Japanese "Matsushima" (), as an intermediate port of call."
This paragraph comes from the article of Dokdo. It reads that the Shogunate granted the Oya and Murakawa families fishing rights. But why did Japanese citizens need to get permission from the Japanese goverment if Japan claimed the islets as their own? If a territory is part of a country why would its own citizens have to get a permission just to go to an islet? If this is true, then Japan must have not considered Dokdo its own territory since permission had to be granted just to go there and fish. This must mean that Japan didn't think of Dokdo as their own territory. Good friend100 02:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All the land properties and natural resources of Japan were owned by the Shogunate, like in any other feudal systems, and the marchants, fishermen, etc. couldn't do their business without official permission from the Shogunate to use them. Even in modern democracies today you can't conduct fishery freely anywhere you want. --222.3.73.246 02:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm not well-versed enough in Japanese feudalism to make this call definitively, but I would suspect that granting someone 'feudal tenure' over a specific place would sort of presuppose that you actually owned the territory in question.  Why did a Japanese citizen have to get permission to fish somewhere?  Well, in feudal England, hunting without permission could be considered poaching, and was punishable by death (in the king's forests, anyhow).  I dunno if Japan had similar traditions, but I would also think that your claim doesn't hold a whole lot of water.  Does the USA not consider Hawai'i part of its territory because you have to get a fishing license (permission) to fish there?  I would personally think not, but then again, I freely admit that I may not know all the facts.  --Zonath 02:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't grant rights to someone to conduct fishery in an area that is not in your jurisdiction. --222.3.73.246 03:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Permission to go to Dokdo