Talk:Scooter Libby/Archive 6

message: [section being deleted continually from the article]
   
*"Jewish Republican Heads Libby Defense Fund". Jewish Standard (Teaneck, New Jersey) 22 February 2006, World News. Accessed 6 March 2007. ["A prominent Jewish Republican," former Ambassador Mel Sembler, heads the Libby Defense Trust; cf. "Message from the Chairman", posted on the home page of the Libby Defense Trust website.]    
*Kampeas, Ron. "Libby Jewish? Some Wonder How Neo-con's Faith Impacts Leak Scandal". Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA) ("The Global News Service of the Jewish People") 2 November 2005. Accessed 17 March 2007. Rpt. in Ron Kampeas, "Did Libby's Jewishness Impact the CIA Leak Scandal?" Jerusalem Post, Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), 6 November 2005. Updated 7 November 2005. Accessed 26 March 2007. Cf. "Lewis Libby", Notable Names Database, as listed below.    
*Lewis Libby at nndb.com. Accessed 18 April 2007. [Some details about Libby listed here may be of questionable reliability ("This is a beta version of NNDB"; corrections and comments are requested).]
Incorporated into "Bibliography" earlier; Jayjg changed the title of the section to "References" and then claimed that the items (sources) were not cited in the body of the article (he had earlier deleted multiple versions of the content citing the items [sources]). --NYScholar 19:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Further reading

message: [Please place comments below]
The constant attempts of two editors in particular, (User:NYScholar and User:Fermat1999) to describe Libby as Jewish are, in my view, a violation of 
#WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content: "Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability", and
#WP:BLP#Use_of_categories: "Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met: The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question, and The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life."
The two editors keep trying to tag him as Jewish in some way or other, without providing any solid sources which indicate its relevance. There is only one reliable source that discusses the topic at all, an article by Ron Kampeas, and even that article indicates that Libby himself has never commented on his ethnicity or religious beliefs, and that most people were unaware of them. Initially article editors (particularly NYScholar) kept describing him as "Jewish" in the article itself, or putting him in various Jewish categories. Then NYScholar stopped describing him as a Jew, but kept adding to the article that he was a member of a Jewish Temple, including in an article about the Temple itself. Most recently NYScholar has stopped trying to tag or categorize him as a Jew, but continues to insert an incredibly lengthy "reference" to the Kampeas article (variously listed under "References", "Further reading", "Other sources consulted", etc.), as a way of getting around WP:BLP, and even went so far as to create an article on Ron Kampeas. Along with that, he keeps linking to the admittedly unreliable source NNDB (which lists Libby as a Jew), and an article that says a prominent Jew is leading Libby's defense (some sort of smear by association). The lengths and various subterfuges NYScholar has used to tag Libby as a Jew have, in my view, gone well into WP:POINT territory.
In my view these attempts to label Libby have also become obsessive. 71% of User:Fermat1999's edits have been to this article or its Talk: page, all attempting to describe Libby as a Jew. As for User:NYScholar, he has made almost 500 edits to this article, more than the next 20 editors combined, and an equal number of edits to the article's Talk: page, again more than the next 20 editors combined. Indeed, a large majority of NYScholar's edits for the past three weeks have been about this topic alone; ways of describing Libby as a Jew. This obsessive yellow badging is disturbing at best. Jayjg (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a surprising personal attack, and frankly quite misleading and even disgusting by jayjg.  I have not labelled Libby as jewish anymore in the MAIN ARTICLE except VERY early on, when I thought it was benign and just missed - I have just argued on the discussion page that he should be jewish since, when it got reversed.  I joined as a member because of this issue when the issue became protected (before this I was anon), AND because this is the only edit area where there is no consensus, I have had to keep responding to jayjg's responses because I disagree with him. Notmyrealname, jayjg and humus sapiens have been equally obsessed about this (and a review of their other edits shows an obsession with israeli and jewish issues with a more likudnik POV as opposed to labour). I will not attempt to label Libby as jewish myself, though I may defend other people attacked by jajjg. This, despite the fact that virtually all other comtemporaries have their religion/ethnicity noted on wikipedia if that info is widely available.  Like many others, I have basically learned that jayjg runs the middle east articles of wikipedia.  And in the end I suppose, anyone that is curious about Libby's background can simply google it and discover he is jewish anyways, or that he was Marc Rich's lawyer, and so forth.  I just think it's a pity that since wikipedia is supposed to be a repository of pertinent knowledge on all fascinating topics, events, and personalities, that in the case of Libby, one will have to go to other sources for basic bio info most biographies in the modern era would have detailed. And finally, before jayjg joined arbscom, he had the most negative/hostile nay's from longtime contributors of any arbscom committee member admitted, despite his 'election'.  A simple 'googling' of jayjg will find this; as jayjg has no problem publishing my stats for everyone to see. Fermat1999 22:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Strongly agree with Jayjg. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If he hasn't self-identified, then he cannot be categorised as Jewish, or described as Jewish in WP's voice. If another couple of sources emerge linking his notability as a political analyst with his religio-ethnic background, then that discussion might become notable; it certainly isnt at this point, which is what the article actually quotes Muravchik as saying. Hornplease 20:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article that I have cited by Kampeas clearly documents that Lewis Libby "publicly self-identifies with the belief...in question [Judaism]," a religious belief, by establishing that he and his family are members of Temple Rodef Shalom; that is an act of public self-identification.  [The same information appears in the NNDB article, in the Tulsa Jewish Review (which appears to come from Kampeas' as well), and which I annotated re: questionable reliability due to the mention of "Irve" as his given first name.]  The article by Kampeas and the sources cited by Kampeas (interviews with Libby's colleagues) clearly establish that Libby's "beliefs...are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life"--to his public service in the Bush administration's policy making relating to the security of Israel and to the Middle East, including its policy making for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, which led to his involvement in the Plame affair and in the CIA leak grand jury investigation and, ultimately, to his conviction on four of five felony indictments in United States v. Libby: all main topics of this article on Libby. --NYScholar 23:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I haven't enlisted anyone to comment on this, but it's rather amusing to read your lengthy diatribe that complains about my "personal attacks". Jayjg (talk) 22:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You may be "amused"; I am not. --NYScholar 22:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Irony is usually amusing, particularly when taken to these extremes. Jayjg (talk) 22:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: "Request for comment" is no place for your additional comments responding to me; I'm really not interested in where you perceive "irony". I'm interested in the content of the articles that you are suppressing. --NYScholar 22:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for comment

message: To those it applies to: Please stop deleting correct and reliably sourced information from this article as these users are doing in other articles in Wikipedia: the category "assistant to the President" is correct: see the introductory paragraphs and sourcing: e.g., Archived White House biography of Lewis Libby, already documented in the article.  See what is going on in the article Neoconservatism (Talk page and editing history there) for evidence of the biases and POV being used in Wikipedia articles pertaining to Lewis Libby (just one other example).  --NYScholar 16:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction of errors into this article

message: I have tagged this article; it was previously protected from deletions of the sources recently deleted after the [earlier semi-]protection was lifted.  See the editing history and archived talk pages. --NYScholar 15:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tagged article due to lack of neutrality in editing

message: In adding a source (Slate article), I accidentally made a typographical error resulting in some unintended material when I was providing the source citation in a note: The unintended material  accidentally appears in the text and is:
By Karen Kwiatkowski
Opinion:].</ref>
That typographical error is in Lewis Libby#Government public service and political career just prior to the cross-ref. to the PNAC (Project for the New American Century); the new additional source is informative about Libby's political contexts.  [Please delete extra spacing as well.  The cross-ref. needs to follow the note number.  Thank you.] --NYScholar 17:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. MahangaTalk 01:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article protection: Request for editing assistance

message: Quoting the notice tagged at top of this page:
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lewis Libby article.  This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
It is also not a forum for discussion of other contributors or to demean their contributions. --NYScholar 20:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: General reminder

message: It seems that NYScholar has been inappropriately inserting the content in question into the page of Temple Rodef Shalom. This appears to be a version of POV Forking. While not a violation of official policy, this is really an unhelpful action in this ongoing dispute. Since the issue originated on this page, I am posting this comment here. The editor had initially created a subcategory on the Temple page called "Notable members," with Libby being the sole person listed. After I removed it, noting that Kampeas' article is dated 2005 and therefor not current, he changed it to "Notable members (past and/or present)." Again, Libby is the only member listed. Notmyrealname 21:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: NYScholar, I find your obsession with Libby's Jewishness utterly inappropriate. Also, plerase stop intimidating other users on this page. See WP:OWN. Please stop this. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I suggest that others stop trying to intimidate me.  I did not post this section.  Another user did. I am not obsessed with Libby's "Jewishness"; those who attempt to remove the article documenting it are.  --NYScholar 22:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected that the user was not the first to place Libby's name on the temple page. My other comments stand. Notmyrealname 03:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I stand by my comments that the above user's claims are totally without support. --NYScholar 08:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Concern about [[WP:POVFORK|POV Forking]]

message: Quoting the notice tagged at top of this page:
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Lewis Libby article.  This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
It is also not a forum for discussion of other contributors or to demean their contributions. --NYScholar 20:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: General reminder

message: [My original heading was changed by another user: It was: "Some representative additional reliable sources pertinent to improving development of this article's discussion of Libby's role in Bush administration foreign policy pertaining to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, national security affairs relating to the Middle East and particularly to Israel" --NYScholar 16:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional sources

message: [This heading was changed by another user from my original heading, which was: "Source to update currently unsourced (unattributed, undocumented) statement re: Libby's law license in Washington, D.C.". --tc: updated.  --NYScholar 17:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I had attempted to add this source to this talk page earlier but had an editing problem and lost whole list above and this source; restored earlier and now.  The CREW site seems to be having some glitches, so I have provided the law.com site version of the article.:  This article can also document that Libby first "became a member of the D.C. Bar in 1978"; it observes that "...the D.C. Bar suspended Libby's law license Wednesday [April 4, 2007]," a "temporary suspension" that "is a result of his conviction last month for perjury, false statements, and obstruction of justice" and that "The suspension is effective until the Board of Professional Responsibility decides whether to boot Libby from the ranks of the legal field for good."  It also observes, as some previous eds. pointed out but had given no verifiable reliable sources to document:
Of course, Libby wasn't exactly a member in good standing before.  The Bar suspended his law license in October 2006 for nonpayment of dues -- something he could have fixed by paying the approximately $180 annual fee.
Libby, a Columbia Law School grad who became a member of the D.C. Bar in 1978, was also suspended for nonpayment of dues in December 2001 and reinstated in November 2005.
Given Libby's suspensions for the nonpayment of relatively small fees, I now would question whether or not he keeps up the membership dues in, say, Temple Rodef Shalom, which may be much higher as they appear to be based on income levels.  (Though perhaps, as chief of staff and then as defendant, that membership was more important to him and his family (until his conviction) than his law license, since he stopped practicing law (as this Wik. article documents) for periods from 2002 to 2005. The uncertainty is thus one reason why I think the phrase "former and/or current" was reasonable to add to the heading in the other article, though, as I state in response to Quatloo re: that article's talk page and elsewhere, I am not sure that the temple is even notable enough to have an article in Wikipedia devoted to it, and I would recommend its deletion entirely if others agree with him as well.  But I have no strong views about its staying in or going.  I just think that if the temple article stays in Wikipedia, and if Libby has a Wikipedia article that can cite this reliable published source that he is or was a member in it (for many years as of 2005; same year his law license was "reinstated"), then it makes sense to link him to it in a respectable manner.  I tried to do that, but my attempt has been called into question and maligned. I have no more time to devote to this article now. --NYScholar 15:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Source pertaining to Libby's law license

message: [My original heading linked to a Request for Arbitration (RFA) with a title focusing on the articles rather than on me (a contributor); however, an administrator changed the heading in the RFA back to focusing on me; the link to the RFA is now in "What links here" in the Lewis Libby main article; see the content directly below, where I provide the direct link.  Headings in article talk pages are not to focus on contributors; see tagged talk page guidelines at the top of this page Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. [Updated: added explanation for this heading. --NYScholar 19:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What links here

message: As this case is still under Arbitration, please don't adjust anything on the talk page, as that would be considered "Tampering with the evidence."--RWilliamKing 18:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitration

message: [For the record:] I myself have not "tamper[ed] with the evidence": someone else altered my own [recent] earlier headings, which I noted clearly in brackets, making the changes even clearer than they had been (in brackets stating that and with clear signatures).  This talk page is subject to editing (correction of typograhical errors, for example, which I have been doing in my own comments); it is not protected from such typographical corrections to one's own comments.  (I am not changing comments originated by others.)  I have not attempted to remove any "evidence."  The headings were corrected by another user, and I made that clear.  See the editing history.--NYScholar 18:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply