Talk:Order of Saint John (chartered 1888)

message: I have recently been doing research into soap opera actress Ruth Warrick and from a book published in 1992 I have found her listed as "Dame of Honour and Merit by the Imperial Russian Order of Saint John of Jerusalem Ecumenical Foundation".  I assume she got this when she traveled to Russia circa 1991 as part of a "Global Forum" which met with Gorbachev about environmental problems.  Can anyone tell me more about this ? Dowew 02:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The organization you reference is a self-styled order, not a legitimate one.  There's a full run-down of this fake order here: http://www.chivalricorders.org/orders/self-styled/selfsty2.htm Bricology (talk) 08:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Russian Order 

message: I seriously doubt that :Image:CrossofVOSJ.jpg is licenced under GFDL. In fact it says right under that image on that website on the desc. page, "Copyright (c) 2002 Order of Saint John. Priory in USA." Greentubing 08:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Badge pic 

message: Hello! Thanks for putting the ribbon of the VOSJ on the page. I'm not sure it is entirely necessary, though, as the actual ribbon is shown immediately above it in the photograph. Would you be terribly offended if I removed your addition?--Eva bd 12:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Eva - I moved your question to this talk page for the sake of keeping track of it... I placed the ribbon picture on this page for the sake of completeness more than anything. For many orders, it is not immediately obvious what the ribbon of the order is that would be worn when full regalia is not worn (e.g., see Order of Merit or Order of St Michael and St George). I was actually researching what each ribbon was for the Australian Honours Order of Precedence, and as I went through uploading various images, I have been including the ribbons on the appropriate medal/order page. However, if you feel that it is obvious, then feel free to delete. Of course, whilst I was not completely surprised to see what the ribbon turned out to be (after having seen the pic of the insignia on this page), I still couldn't put my hand on my heart and guarantee it. PalawanOz 13:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I'm OK with it staying. Thanks.--Eva bd 13:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Order of St John Ribbon

message: Can someone explain the image that is currently leading the article? It appears to be an oddly edited version the actual photograph of the insignia on the commons. I'd propose that we change it with the picture that actually shows what the insignia looks like. Any thoughts.--Eva bd 04:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Another possibility might be the outline cross below--Eva bd 09:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hearing no strong opinions either way after five days, I'm going to go ahead and change the image.--Eva bd 04:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Badge Picture in Infobox

message: Though the article mentions Knights of Justice and Knights of Grace, it does not say what the difference is. Opera hat (talk) 10:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Justice/Grace 

message: Recently, mention of Grade VI (Esquire) was removed from the article, along with a couple of other changes. Having done an extensive copyedit and update of this article not too long ago, I don't recall seeing anywhere that Grade VI, Chaplians, and Serving Brothers and Sisters had been abolished. Sedacca, could you please provide sources to support the edits you're making? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 02:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Esquires 

message: The text claims that no post-nominal letters of the order are used outside the organization itself. However, contrary to that claim, my believe was always that it is common and allowed to use the post-nominal letters, as seen in many biographies in the media. This also would make sense since every grade has specific designated post-nominal letters; it would not be logical not to use those. So what is right? I think the Wikipedia text is wrong about this. Could someone show me the specific source that supports the current text? I could not find anything about non-usage of the post-nominal letters in the official Royal Charters and Statutes of the order, other than that is explained which designated post-nominal letters each grade has. Diodecimus (talk) 10:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added sources for the post-nominal letters. They are not used outside the order itself; official publications never include them (in Canada, Australia, and Britain, anyway). --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  No use of post-nominal letters??? 

message: In the section structure we should include who are the high officials. (The Sovereign Head, The Grand Prior, The Lord Prior of St. John etc.) In fact I know only who is The Sovereign Head (Elizabeth II) and even if The Grand Prior and the others have not an article, if someone knows their names he/she should include them. Thanks!--46.246.166.248 (talk) 08:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I realize that the article has already been updated to reflect some of this information, but just to give closure to the question: the Grand Prior is HRH Prince Richard, the Duke of Gloucester.  The Lord Prior is Prof. Anthony R Mellows OBE TD, the Prelate is The Right Reverend John Nicholls, and the Secretary-General is Sir Paul Lambert.  There are 8 Priories around the world; the Prior of the American chapter is A. Marshall Acuff, Jr. Bricology (talk) 08:23, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structure 

message: An image used in this article, File:CVAustRibbon.png, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status 
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thread_title: File:CVAustRibbon.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: Regarding the terms "badge" and "insignia", in keeping with other articles on heraldry, I take "badge" to mean a usually-metallic device that can be worn suspended from a ribbon around the neck, pinned to the breast, on a sash, or on a small piece of cloth. "Insignia" seems to be a more general term, which may include badges and ribbons as well as embroidered or printed symbols and illustrations. The current lead image is a badge according to the above, and its description by the original uploader.
Also, why did you revert the table changes? My changes made better use of space, properly used the caption, bolded the headers (instead of fading them), all in keeping with the current MOS for tables (and using the class intended).
BTW, there seems to be an inconsistency over what the actual six grades are. In some places (here and in sources), Grade VI is Esquire, while in other places, Grade VI is Member and Knights of Justice and Knights of Grace are separate grades (II and III). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 20:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Badge v insignia 

message: This page was recently moved from Venerable Order of St John to St John International. I don't think I agree with the move, but welcome the thoughts of others. From what I have understood, the recent branding of St John International is meant to bring all the St John establishments under one umbrella. Thus, the Order still exists as such, the Ambulance organizations still exist, and the hospital in Jerusalem still exist. These are all run from St John's Gate as St John International. Would it not be better to leave this page where it was? Or am I not understanding the branding changes? Thanks.--dave-- 20:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Any thoughts?--dave-- 11:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with you. Was there a discussion ? The Yeti 12:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

text: The current title makes no sense; the order is still called the Order of St John, not St John International. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

text: This still doesn't make any sense. Is Sophie, Countess of Wessex, now a Dame of Justice of St John International? Something's amiss and I share dave's suspicion. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:20, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

text: It's just a different name for the same thing. Like "Order of the Temple" is a different name for "Templars" and "Teutonic Knights" is a different name for "Ordo domus Sanctæ Mariæ Theutonicorum Hierosolymitanorum". DrKay (talk) 08:14, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Move

message: The article content does not support 'continuation of a body that emerged in the 1820s'., but in fact shows otherwise. After some private persons had been engaged in some activities, a group in England
gave themselves a new direction and purpose of their own and formed a body by the name 'The Sovereign and Illustrious Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, Anglia', intended to be distinct from what had gone before. This new entity grew its membership over the ensuing three decades. In 1871, a new constitution brought about further changes to the order's name, offering the more modest Order of Saint John of Jerusalem in England... That may be seen as consistent with continuity from 1830's but not 1820s. Qexigator (talk) 22:26, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Then why does the history section go back to 1823? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:44, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Interrogative Non sequitur! Historians understand that it can help to introduce their topic by giving some preliminary account of certain events before or collateral to its inception, sometimes, as here, to explain that pre-conceptions or vague notions connected with persons or bodies or activities of the same or similar name are distinctly not to be taken as a starting point, and may have fizzled out or continued in some other way. It is one of the ways historians perform the task of identifying and clarifying what has been, or may be, or continues to be, muddled, whether intentionally, casually or inadvertently. Qexigator (talk) 06:36, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hardly. The history begins with a group in France in the 1820s and traces the evolution of that group into one across the Channel and onward to the present day. "Evolved" is the word to use, then. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, maybe not: please identify the 'body' from which you infer it indisputably 'evolved'. Qexigator (talk) 16:27, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I just did above, of course. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:40, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I do not see in the text 'a group in France in the 1820s'. Please refer to the text. If you know what you mean, I do not.  Qexigator (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Then try being not so literal. If the lede is a summary, do you expect it to repeat the text in the article body word for word? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:28, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am asking what body named in the main text you consider, in your above comment, can be identified as the 'body' from which you infer it indisputably 'evolved'. If there is none there, the lead ought not to be written as if there were. Qexigator (talk) 17:44, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "Group in France". "1820s". I'm sure you can take those extremely simple clues and match them with the relevant content of the history section. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: If you read the article carefully you may be able to discern that the early history is not as simple as you are implying, and it is important to present the information clearly to avoid confusing the reader.  If you are sure you know what you mean by 'a group in France in the 1820s', I am not, but it is a simple matter for you to reply by specifying in the words of the text. Qexigator (talk) 18:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  'continuation' 

message: I think it's the case that the class in question is now "Member" and therefore MStJ? Could someone verify and edit article if necessary? Rorate (talk) 17:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: My understanding, Rorate, is that the decision has been made to switch the grade from SBStJ/SSStJ to MStJ and it has, in practice, been implemented. I think, however, that the previous grade names are given in the statutes of the Order and those will need to be duly updated and approved before the change is official. The most recent (2004) Statutes still list SBStJ and SSStJ and even the most recent London Gazette notice (from last week) makes it known that individuals have been appointed as Serving Brothers and Serving Sisters. Until the statutes are updated, then, I think that it's just going to be a confused situation. The Order says that they've changed the name of the grade, but I don't think that officially they have.--dave-- 22:45, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I am really grateful to you, dave--, for this most illuminating and cogent explanation. I too have noticed the nomenclature in the London Gazette. Does anyone know where the Statutes can be read online? There is a dead link in the article: http://www.orderofstjohn.org/uploads/PDF/Order_of_St%20John_Charters_and_Statutes.pdf. It would be good to refer to the official text on this and other matters. Rorate (talk) 23:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: From what I've heard, the Order took the Statutes off of the main "St John International" website. They are still available to members of the St John community who log in, but my understanding was that they were removed from the public page so that they could be edited and revised. Presumably these revisions will, among other things, add things like changes to the name of Grade V. I have no idea what the time line is for these edits, but I presume that they would need to be approved by the Grand Council. Perhaps the issue was taken up at the meeting last week in Edinburgh... --dave-- 14:43, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  SBStJ and SSStJ versus MStJ 

message: I have just removed three links from the article:
:1) the Marquis de Sainte-Croix du Molay was linked to Marie Louis Descorches - despite the fact that the latter was, at least before the French Revolution, the Marquis d'Escorches de Saint-Croix, the two men are very clearly different. Descorches supported first the revolution and then Napoleon, went into retirement after the French Restoration and died in 1830, while the Marquis de Sainte-Croix-Molay (whose title, interestingly, does not seem to have been French) died in 1841;
:2) a link to the Orden de Malta pointed to the Spanish Wikipedia page for the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, for no obvious reason;
:3) a link to Knight of Malta went to a disambiguation page - seeing that the only suitable alternative target would have been one or other of the orders which are already linked to from the article, it seemed best just to remove it. PWilkinson (talk) 16:11, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reasons for link removal 

message: It seems that the Order of St John has just instituted a new journal of historical papers related to the Order. These might help clarify some of the questions regarding the date of foundation/revival. The first issue contains a very relevant paper by former Lord Prior Anthony Mellows. It can be downloaded here if anyone wants to start incorporating anything.--dave-- 22:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: New Resource

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: CStJ for instance, refers to a Commander of the British Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) and should be redirected to this page as well as any other of its post-nominals. It was chartered by Queen Victoria and is not to be confused with this reconstituted lay Catholic Order Sovereign Military Order of Malta based in Rome. The British Order of Saint John is responsible for the all volunteer St. John's Ambulance Brigade etc around the world and is the British Order referred to by this post nominal.
See both different Wikipedia pages for full explanation of the different Orders. The British Order to which the decoration post-nominal CStJ etc applies is Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) - details can be found on the post nominals in the entry on this gage - but It has been confused and erroneously redirects to the Catholic lay order Sovereign Military Order of Malta. They are two entirely different Orders involved in entirely different things. 
The names are easily confused but this needs clarifying.
Dear Editor, can you kindly correct this mistaken redirect to correctly direct to the British Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) from, the incorrect present re-direct to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta ? I imagine both Orders and any confused readers would be grateful.
 
Many thanks. All of you do a wonderful and much appreciated work.
William Macadam (talk) 15:59, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Presumably you have found articles on well-known people who may be members of this order. If you know of any which are linking to the wrong Order of Saint John, it would help if you can list them here. I spot checked a couple of articles linking to 'Order of Saint John' and they were correct. We have an entry for CStJ but it redirects to the British order as it should. There is no simple way to follow up on your request unless you can share your findings. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 19:59, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

text: There seems to be a problem with the redirect at Commander of the Order of St John. It redirects to Sovereign Military Order of Malta. This needs more study. Does the British order also have a 'Commander' rank?  There may need to be a fix to :Template:Post-nominals. EdJohnston (talk) 00:26, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I may have fixed this, per this change to Commander of the Order of St John. Try clicking on the postnominal CStJ in the  Ivison Macadam article. I think this one is fixed. If you know of any other article, try checking CStJ there as well. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 01:00, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Post-nominals of the British order redirecting to the Italian order

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Under DGC we have Lady Mary Barttelot. Only first glance this looks wrong. As we talking about Hon. Mary Angela Fiona Weld Forester who married Colonel Sir Brian Walter de Stopham Barttelot, 5th Bt. The honours referenced to her appear to match; then she is "Lady Barttelot" Garlicplanting (talk) 12:10, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lady Mary Barttelot 

message: Unless I've missed it, this article doesn't explain what the distinction is between a Knight/Dame of Justice and a Knight/Dame of Grace. Are they considered different levels of seniority, or would each one be awarded to a different category of person (clergy vs non-clergy?)? Proteus (Talk) 11:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Judging from page 192 of McCreery armigerous knights are 'of Justice' and non-armigerous knights are 'of Grace'. DrKay (talk) 14:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! Proteus (Talk) 17:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Justice vs Grace