Talk:Khandoba

message: Could somebody please break the last section of the page into sub paragraphs, as it is very unwieldy,possibly using sub headings. I don't have the knowledge of the text do it properly.
perfectblue 14:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: The version i have created is a summary of your information. The information you had provided was in a hap hazard state. Thus to meet the wikipedia standards, i have put the info in proper English. Thatz all. I respect your sentiments for God Khandoba. Please let this version remain.
Please stop stop 'Tamil' Venu vs 'Maratha' Vishal war.
God bless. Khandoba cha chag bhal!
--Redtigerxyz 08:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dear Vishal1976

message: This is regarding the way the wives of Khandoba are addressed in the article. My suggestion would be to use Devi at start or end of the name. e.g Devi Mhalsa or Mhalsadevi. The current usage is improper and i strongly feel it should be changed. If anyone has any other suggestion please feel free discuss it. If none respond to this suggestion from me, i shall be changing the names to what i have suggested, say in a day or two. 
(Asro 09:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The devi term is not known to those who are not familar with Hinduism.--Redtigerxyz 05:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names Of Wives

message: The current edition of article god kandoba is vicious and defaming the god. It should be altered and those who are responsible should be punish in the court of law. In this article the god khandoba is potrated as sexy man, lusty for womens, marrying outcaste girls. If you see all the caste mention in this articles , even today they don't intermarry, marry outcaste. The meaning, tone of this article sounds very loudly to defame, insult the god Khandoba and Maratha caste and spread missleading information about god Khandoba in all world. Dose Wikipedia allows this vandalism ??? I Vishal Prakash Dudhane, User Vishal1976 have personaly visited both forts god Khandoba and did the ritual like Abhishek , Tali Bhandar etc many time in pious intention. I have talked the peoples, priests. Many of my Maratha relatives and other friends lives ther in Jejuri will certainly will not agree with current edition of this article. I expect argent, quick legal, ethical, moral actions against the vandalist.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.140.159 (talk) 08:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Vishal1976, maybe the idea of marrying "outcaste" girls is wrong in your view but maybe not in the view of Lord Khandoba or those who wrote His stories. Please provide concrete references as per WP:VERIFY policy to rebuke the matter in the article. Just for references, Hindu gods are known to linked to more than 1 consorts in religious texts like Puranas. e.g. Krishna - 16008 queens, Vishnu - 2 consorts (Lakshmi and Bhudevi), Ganesha - Riddhi and Siddhi etc.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vishal1976 

message: I wonder if any editor has a copy of the Malhari-mahatmya and if they could use it to fill in more details about the career of Khandoba? Right now the section is way too small and may look better if it is combined with the 'wives' section. I appreciate that Khandoba is generally not very well known as other divinities. Ekantik talk 03:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Narration

message: #Red, the Khandoba article will be read by lay people, I have written above, that cult is technically neutral, but to a lay man it sounds sinister. It is like using the word oversight in India, where it means to overlook, whereas in the US it means to supervise, for if you use oversight in India and show its dictionary meaning that it also means to supervise it would be of no help if ones intention is to communicate and not to confuse or to show off or to show fidelity to general academic usage (read overrated western stuffed shirts) and not to get the idea across effectively. We have had this argument before. It is a pity it is difficult to get the thought across Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Indian Hindu writers like Manohar Laxman Varadpande,  Swami P. Anand, Swami Parmeshwaranand, Ghurye use "cult" in the context of Khandoba. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  15:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no argument whether the use of cult is right or wrong, the point is that it is a little too academic, archaic and that its present usage in lay parlance is very pejorative. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:28, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  Please check properly: it cites 12 books and three other web sources. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  15:45, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If 54 of the 60 sources are indeed from one book then this can potentially fall under WP:ONESOURCE guideline. Separately I am requesting you to please provide the exact quotes used from Burman in 4 places from page 1227 of  Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 20:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  "Well you cite 60 references, out of that 54 are from Hiltebeitel's book": Please count properly. Out of 60, 54 are NOT from Hiltebeitel's book. Also, Hiltebeitel is just the editor, not the writer of the book. There are 2 articles written by different scholars in his book, that the article cites. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:08, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  If it is OK with the anon 74.9.96.122 and Zuggernaut, I suggest copy pasting this discussion to Talk:Khandoba. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I am OK to move this discussion to Talk:Khandoba Zuggernaut (talk) 06:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

text: Keeping in mind WP:SPIRIT and WP:Goodfaith, I am not going to dispute this source any further other than stating that we need to read/provide entire relevant sections/paragraphs of cited sources. Also, you should consider replacing the word denigrate in this sentence " The Varkari poet-saint Eknath denigrated the cult in his writings.[41]" with something like 'criticizes'. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  "disparaging": Regard or represent as being of little worth; which is captured in the word "denigrate" and not in "criticize". However, I have replaced it to criticize, till the dispute is resolved. All relevant paras are copy-pasted here. Burman writes about religious traditions in Shivaji's era; Khandoba cult being one of them. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  17:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have reverted my edit to "denigrated" again as above. No oppositions to my above comment. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's best to use "disparagingly" as it is then. Denigrate has a connotation that actually makes Eknath look un-saintly. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:56, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done. Although IMO disparagingly and denigrated (To disparage; belittle)  have the same connotation. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  06:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Section break

message: Does this article suggest that Ramoshi's are ex-criminals? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:01, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes. They were ex-criminals. Anthropological Survey of India ref: , Rusell Ramoshis' traditional occupation was looting. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  17:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  What you say anon is WP:OR. Anthropological Survey of India is a Government of India entity.  --Redtigerxyz  Talk  16:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Anon 74.9.96.122 does have a point as I discovered while writing the Third Anglo-Maratha War. Shivaji has been referred to as a freebooter by several British authors from 1800s and early 1900s. However, we cannot blame these authors or discard entire books from them as good sources because they do contain other well researched information. This information would have been lost on Indian history had the British authors not documented it. Perhaps the authors were victims of the era they lived in. On the other hand, I was stunned to find that several articles like this FA - British Empire often have a Eurocentric POV. Take a look at the changes I've made to see what I mean and feel free to scrutinize further:       The ASI book has it's flaws as it often draws from the same British authors I've mentioned above. I can't say much about Ramoshi's but others such as the Pindari's of Chambal/Malwa, the Thugees of Bengal were rightly branded as criminals by the British. Zuggernaut (talk) 20:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  Wikipedia is not censored. We can not deny the truth. The fact is that the Khandoba cult assimilated in it the masses and people from fringes of society, which is established by scholars by describing the social status of communities. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  05:11, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  Where did I say that Khandoba is NOT worshipped by them (Please do not read what is not said), I just said that (like Vithoba's Varkaris) Khandoba cult also includes the masses and people from fringes of society, which is not always the case. In some Brahmanical sects, they were not included. And yes, Khandoba is the most popular Kuladevata (family deity), the article emphasizes this fact in the lead; no OR there. I, nor the article associate Khandoba only with communities on the margins of Maharashtrian society; the article tries to establish that "The cult of Khandoba ... also assimilates all communities irrespective of caste, including Muslims." --Redtigerxyz  Talk  16:57, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  "there are Hindu gods which worshipped only by hindu religious or social elites": I never said that but there are Hindu gods whose sects (it is the people whose discriminate, not the gods) kept some communities away. In the past, some communities were kept away from temples and Brahmanical worship. The Khandoba cult did not do so. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  03:49, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  I am only writing what the WP:RS write. The ASI is a govt agency, no British Raj pressure. Please do not digress and cite WP:RS to prove that Ramoshis were not traditional not criminals. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  03:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: ASI was set up by the British, (please check). Of course Romoshi's were branded as criminal by the British, so were Jews branded by Germans as unmenshen, would you dare to refer to Jews as ex-unmenshen. If you can go ahead with Ramoshi's too I am not digressing, I am trying to explain my point giving examples Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Check this article Denotified and Nomadic Tribes in Maharashtra: Motiraj Rathod[] Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you refer to a black American as a Negro, even a historical personality, despite plethora of sources? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am also adding their current status as "village guards and watch-men" as ASI defines them.--Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  Linked Denotified tribes of India. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Red I did not digress, other editors dragged Marathas, and the rest here. I simply reacted. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Does this article suggest that Ramoshi's are ex-criminals

message: Again Red has tripped on a rhetorical question. The Ramoshi's were branded criminal, like many other peoples by the British racist, criminal colonialists. Do you mean to say Red that just because Savarkar spent years in British prison for murder (conspiracy, abetment etc.), that makes his progency murderers?
Were the British criminals any better than Marathas, Pindaris, Thugs or others? Hodson first removed the clothes of Zafar’s sons and then shot them. Why did he remove their clothes, simple! he stole their jewels, must have been worth a fortune!! Iranians, Arabs, Turks, Afghans, Moghals, Siddis are known to have destroyed tens of thousands of temples and robbed their wealth, were the Marathas, Pindaris, Thugs any worse.[]. Srinagar’s only Jain temple was recently ransacked.[] Getting back to ASI and the Gazettes, we have a victorious people writing the history of their contest. They stamped the Pindaris, Thugs etc as criminal, condemned them to a life of brutal oppression. The British and Europeans have not yet stopped this racism, less than 60 years ago it was the Jews, the Roma and others by the Germans, the Jews have been rehabilitated, the Roma continued to suffer racial profiling, there are Europe’s unmenschen, but we are sourcing non-sense from these muck-raisers and anointing our people and our gods with it. It is such a shame. Shaker I had once suggested that sources not on line should be extensively quoted perhaps in footnotes, for peer review. Red don’t call Ramoshi’s or anybody else criminals. Ex or otherwise. It is saying that Vinod's pet-name is Kalya Taklya, only greatly sinister. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am only writing what the WP:RS write. The ASI is a govt agency, no British Raj pressure. Please do not digress and cite WP:RS to prove that Ramoshis were not traditional not criminals. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  03:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: ASI was set up by the British, (please check). Of course Romoshi's were branded as criminal by the British, so were Jews branded by Germans as unmenshen, would you dare to refer to Jews as ex-unmenshen. If you can go ahead with Ramoshi's too I am not digressing, I am trying to explain my point giving examples Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Check this article Denotified and Nomadic Tribes in Maharashtra: Motiraj Rathod[] Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:23, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you refer to a black American as a Negro, even a historical personality, despite plethora of sources? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am also adding their current status as "village guards and watch-men" as ASI defines them.--Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

text:  Linked Denotified tribes of India. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:43, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Red I did not digress, other editors dragged Marathas, and the rest here. I simply reacted. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Section break

message: No mention of the above cry?  Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Mention it then. This article is just a GA, not supposed to be comprehensive. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  03:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I was not finding faults, just humble suggestion, Yelkot yelkot has a story about it(I am narrating an anecdote, no sources), it is about the the war that he fought against Karnataka killing yelkot or 10 (?) crore of the enemy. So this cry Yelkot yelkot jai Malhar. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please add it, if you have the sources. I don't have sources for it. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  IMO, yelkot means "7 crore" and denotes the 7 crore strong army he led against Mani-Malla. Don't remember where I read it. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  06:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Yelkot yelkot jai malhar

message: Redtiger, as we agreed in message exchange a few  days ago, we should work on getting the whole section on Khandoba worship reworded. I also included several articles from gazeteers as references to back this up. The references mainly show that all brahmin castes including deshastha and Kokanastha worshipped  Khandoba. Incidently, the references are from the 1800s.
Please also read . I hope you notice the word cult. Shakher59 17:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  About "cult", read , where cult is acceptable. Please differentiate between the cultic worship, where Brahmin presence and essence is minimal and the benign Kuladevata worship performed by Brahmin communities. Even the cultic centres of Khandoba have non-Brahmin priests. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  04:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  About the word, see also Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(words_to_watch)#Cult. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  08:51, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khandoba worship 

message: Navas is Sakam bhakti, how the navas is fulfilled, is secondary, why does this article smear Hindu deities and worship, by leading and false information? Does the source say that fire walking is Sakam bhakti, sheer nonsense and false information. Navas can be fulfilled by starting a school or sponsoring a scholar, or by offering 1.25 rupees, there is nothing gory about navas and Sakam bhakti fundamentally, how individuals fulfil it is as varied as there are devotees. The meaning of Sakam bhakti is given in adequate detail above, please modify this article Yogesh Khandke (talk)
:: The article records the navas was fulfilled by these methods. Prove by RS that Khandoba was NOT offered children, hook-swinging or fire-walking are NOT part of his cultic worship. Please provide RS that says "Navas can be fulfilled by starting a school or sponsoring a scholar, or by offering 1.25 rupees". Fire-walking is NOT Sakama bhakti; however worship using navas is. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  05:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yogesh, please go ahead (please don't wait for me) and add the other ways of fulfilling navas, with other references, Marathi RS will also work; do you have any? Actually, I trying to Marathi RS, and you are right about the donation part, that is a way to fulfil navas. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  15:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  The number of Konkanstha communities who worship Khandoba is few, only those in Nashik are recorded to imitate the Deshasthas. Most Deshasthas do worship Khandoba and not much in cultic worship. The cultic worship as scholars describe it includes sacrificing an animal or a bird, chain-breaking, self-mortification et al. Also, the classical Brahmin ways of worship like Yajnas, mantras are not considered part of cultic worship. Please provide reliable references to prove "most" part in terms of the cult.--Redtigerxyz  Talk  03:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

text:  "when an old reference said Kokanastha worship Khandoba, you tried to localize it by saying it only happened in Nasik district." Read the reference. It says explicitly: Kokanstathas in Nashik worship Khandoba as an imitation of Deshasthas. "Nasik is not that far from Mumbai or Pune and the Nasik community therefore could not have been that isolated." that is original research. Sontheimer in his book tells that in a 1855 narrative where a Kokanastha and a Christian mocks Khandoba. Newer authors like Arun Kolatkar still do not describe Jejuri in its devotional fervour, which according to  is because he is a Konkanstha. Please explain why the Gazette of Ratnagiri  does not say Konasthas worship Khandoba, while only the Gazette of Nashik does. Most castes including the Deshastha worship him, but there is no proof - I found - that says all Konkansthas worship him. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  14:16, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

text:  The Reference from Ratnagiri talks only of Deshasthas and Marathas worshipping Khandoba. Also, please do not drag me into a Kokanastha v/s Deshastha dispute about Konasthas' historicity. I am not a Kokanastha or Deshastha and I don't care about the debate. We have reference from 1800s that say Kokanasthas criticized Khandoba and his so-called "impure" temples and cult. Have Kokanasthas changed? I don't know.. but if not, they are not few (20% is huge). Also do Sarswats, Karhade, Devarukkhes worship Khandoba? --Redtigerxyz  Talk  18:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

text:  Christian missionaries' criticism of all Hindu gods is usual (is mentioned in article), but Hindus criticizing Hindu gods is unusual. Satara reference is a shocker, Deshasthas are not mentioned worshipping Khandoba and Kokanasthas are. In cultic practices, the presence of Brahmins is negligible. That is what the article says. Not that he is worshipped by "few" Brahmins. To clarify I suggest this structure: "The cult principally consists of Dhangars..., though it includes a fe Brahmins and Muslims. However, Deshastha Brahmins (who form about 60% of the Brahmin population in Maharashta),... worship him as a Kuladevata." --Redtigerxyz  Talk  06:42, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

text:  Please check if it is ok or any changes are needed. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  17:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Gory lies

message: Redtiger, I agree your German reference says "few" but then we have  references further on in the section that say that Deshastha as well as Konkanstha worship Khandoba. I also have references that say that Karhade brahmin worship  Khandoba. Doesn't that constitute most of the brahmin community of Maharathra ?  Now , you will once again say, oh, but "cultic worship" is different from "domestic worship". Are there vast differences ?  If yu can show  that then I will accept the word few before brahmins. My yajurvedi brahmin mother's side of the family had a Khandoba figure in their deoghar. I have seen many brahmin families perform "Gondhal" after a wedding or munj. So most of the "modes of worship" you mention are performed by Brahmins. Now sacrificing an animal or a bird may not be part of brahmin worship but would you regard that necessarily a "cultic" worship ? 
I look forward to your comments.Anandbharti (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  The number of Konkanstha communities who worship Khandoba is few, only those in Nashik are recorded to imitate the Deshasthas. Most Deshasthas do worship Khandoba and not much in cultic worship. The cultic worship as scholars describe it includes sacrificing an animal or a bird, chain-breaking, self-mortification et al. Also, the classical Brahmin ways of worship like Yajnas, mantras are not considered part of cultic worship. Please provide reliable references to prove "most" part in terms of the cult.--Redtigerxyz  Talk  03:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  "when an old reference said Kokanastha worship Khandoba, you tried to localize it by saying it only happened in Nasik district." Read the reference. It says explicitly: Kokanstathas in Nashik worship Khandoba as an imitation of Deshasthas. "Nasik is not that far from Mumbai or Pune and the Nasik community therefore could not have been that isolated." that is original research. Sontheimer in his book tells that in a 1855 narrative where a Kokanastha and a Christian mocks Khandoba. Newer authors like Arun Kolatkar still do not describe Jejuri in its devotional fervour, which according to  is because he is a Konkanstha. Please explain why the Gazette of Ratnagiri  does not say Konasthas worship Khandoba, while only the Gazette of Nashik does. Most castes including the Deshastha worship him, but there is no proof - I found - that says all Konkansthas worship him. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  14:16, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

text:  The Reference from Ratnagiri talks only of Deshasthas and Marathas worshipping Khandoba. Also, please do not drag me into a Kokanastha v/s Deshastha dispute about Konasthas' historicity. I am not a Kokanastha or Deshastha and I don't care about the debate. We have reference from 1800s that say Kokanasthas criticized Khandoba and his so-called "impure" temples and cult. Have Kokanasthas changed? I don't know.. but if not, they are not few (20% is huge). Also do Sarswats, Karhade, Devarukkhes worship Khandoba? --Redtigerxyz  Talk  18:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

text:  Christian missionaries' criticism of all Hindu gods is usual (is mentioned in article), but Hindus criticizing Hindu gods is unusual. Satara reference is a shocker, Deshasthas are not mentioned worshipping Khandoba and Kokanasthas are. In cultic practices, the presence of Brahmins is negligible. That is what the article says. Not that he is worshipped by "few" Brahmins. To clarify I suggest this structure: "The cult principally consists of Dhangars..., though it includes a fe Brahmins and Muslims. However, Deshastha Brahmins (who form about 60% of the Brahmin population in Maharashta),... worship him as a Kuladevata." --Redtigerxyz  Talk  06:42, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

text:  Please check if it is ok or any changes are needed. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  17:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Few or Most 

message: I propose the following changes to the section worship. It unnecessarily  goes into details as to who in which district worships Khandoba especially amongst the brahmins. 
Please comment. 
===The article as it is:Worship===
Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular.Stanley (Nov. 1977) p. 31 The cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a "Denotified tribe", the former "untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims.Stanley in Hiltebeitel  p.271 Though the Brahmin presence in the cult is nominal, Deshastha BrahminsSontheimer in Hiltebeitel p.300 (constituting of 60% of Maharashtra's Brahmins), as well as the Kokanastha Brahmins - in Nashik and Satara - do worship Khandoba, some imitating the Deshastha Brahmins. The Deshastha Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, as well as the royal families like Gaikwads and Holkars worship Khandoba as their family deity (Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by tribals, kings, merchants, Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers.Sontheimer in Bakker p.104 One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)".
===Proposed changes: Worship===
Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular.Stanley (Nov. 1977) p. 31 According to Stanley in 1977,the cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a "Denotified tribe", the former "untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims.Stanley in Hiltebeitel  p.271 However,in contrast to Stanley,  earlier British colonial accounts from more than a century ago record worship of Khandoba across all castes including the various brahmin subcastes such as Deshastha, Kokanastha and Karhade.Deshastha BrahminsSontheimer in Hiltebeitel p.300  The Deshastha Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, as well as the royal families like Gaikwads and Holkars worship Khandoba as their family deity (Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by tribals, kings, merchants, Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers.Sontheimer in Bakker p.104 One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)".
Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 21:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As I have argued before, "The cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists" does not mean that others do not worship Khandoba. But the others are not part of his cult. A similar analogy is: Vithoba is worshipped by many in Maharashtra, but not all are part of his Varkari sect. If I am a Varkari implies I worship Vithoba, but not vice versa. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  06:10, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  I don't understand the "In contrast to Stanley" part. Stanley does not say that Brahmins or other castes do not worship Khandoba. He just says that cult is largely non-Brahmin. "mainstream" may be contentious word. Non-cultic worship? The "Though the Brahmin presence in the cult is nominal," part was added to stress the difference between their worship and cultic worship. Also, "all castes" is an overstatement, Konkanasthas are recorded to have villified the deity and Konakanasthas from Konkan (their heartland) are not recorded to have worshipped Khandoba. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  15:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

text:  "Khandoba is the god of those Marathi people who are low in social hierachy" as well as those higher. But saying "all castes" will be an overstatement. "most" is a better word. Do all Brahmin communities worship him or can you guarantee that some caste may not worship him and call Khandoba temples impure? I don't know how people miss the lead that says, so I am copy pasting it again in the worship section. Why do people object if people who are so-called lower in social hierachy (who play a much active part in the rites of the cult) preceed in mention those considered higher? Khandoba accepts "who are low in social hierachy", unlike some Brahmanical sects which kept them away. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  17:02, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

text:  The Brahmin presence is the cult is nominal. The cult centres- the jagrut kshestras including Jejuri-do not have Brahmins as priests. Stanley calls the cult a non-Brahmin one. Traditional Brahmin rites like yagnas, Sanskrit mantras are discarded. The popular rites like Tali Bharane do not require Brahmin priests. Konkanasthas like Arun Kolatkar still writes without emotion about Jejuri . Is there proof that the "true" Konkanasthas do worship Khandoba? Do Karhades or GSBs worship Khandoba? "All" without a reference is a dangerous overstatement. A section on the domestic worship and Khandoba ghatasthapna in Margashirsha would be a great section. R. C. Dhere in his Khandoba book (Marathi) describes those (the summary of the book on Dhere's site says that), but I don't have a copy. May be you can acquire one. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  17:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

text:  The British records of 1871 do not say that Konkanasthas from Konkan worship Khandoba  (Harijans are described worshipping Khandoba, also Deshastha Brahimns and Marathas are described to have Khandoba as their family deity), nor do they say that "all" castes worship Khandoba. The British records categorically say in an instance that Konkanasthas imitated Deshasthas to worship Khandoba.  says: "after all, Khandoba is basically a deity of the bahujana samaj and also of the Deshastha Brahmins. [Arun] Kolatkar is a Konkanastha. Subliminally, could this be one more reason why Kolatkar has been able to achieve such a strikingly detached stance vis-a-vis Khandoba? " [emphasis as in ref]. "vast majority of Marathi Hindu people from all strata worship Khandoba" - which does not "all" - tallies with the facts. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  06:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

text:  "FIRST EDITION; 1880 SECOND EDITION (REVISED) : 1962". Must be a replacement of the D word in the 1962 edition. Would love to see to add more referenced material on non-cultic worship especially. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  14:15, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worship 

message: Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular.Stanley (Nov. 1977) p. 31 According to Stanley in 1977,the cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a "Denotified tribe", the former "untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims.Stanley in Hiltebeitel  p.271 However,in contrast to Stanley,  earlier British colonial accounts from more than a century ago record worship of Khandoba across all castes including the various brahmin subcastes such as Deshastha, Kokanastha and Karhade.Deshastha BrahminsSontheimer in Hiltebeitel p.300  The Deshastha Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, as well as the royal families like Gaikwads and Holkars worship Khandoba as their family deity (Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by tribals, kings, merchants, Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers.Sontheimer in Bakker p.104 One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)".
Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 21:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As I have argued before, "The cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists" does not mean that others do not worship Khandoba. But the others are not part of his cult. A similar analogy is: Vithoba is worshipped by many in Maharashtra, but not all are part of his Varkari sect. If I am a Varkari implies I worship Vithoba, but not vice versa. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  06:10, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed changes: Worship

message: Though Shiva is worshipped across Maharashtra in his original form, some Maharashtrian communities prefer to worship him in form of his avatars, Khandoba being the most popular.Stanley (Nov. 1977) p. 31. Furthermore, the mode of worship can be differentiated into the "cultic" and mainstream.  According to Stanley in 1977, the cult of Khandoba in the Deccan principally consists of peasant classes Marathas and Kunabis, shepherd Dhangars, village guards and watchmen Ramoshis — a "Denotified tribe", the former "untouchable" Mahars and Mangs, fisher-folk Kolis, balutedar castes like gardeners (Mali) and tailors (Shimpi), though it also includes of a few Brahmins and even some Muslims.Stanley in Hiltebeitel  p.271. In contrast to Stanley,  earlier British colonial accounts from more than a century ago record worship of Khandoba across all castes including the various brahmin subcastes. Sontheimer in Hiltebeitel p.300 . The mainstream worship of Khandoba by the above mentioned Brahmins, Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhus, as well as the royal families like Baroda  Gaikwads and Indore  Holkars consists of treating him as their family deity (Kuldevta). He is also worshipped by Jains and Lingayats. He is viewed as a "king" of his followers.Sontheimer in Bakker p.104 One of the most widely worshipped gods of the Deccan plateau, Khandoba is considered as "the premier god of Sakama bhakti (wish-granting devotion) and one of the most powerful deities responsive to vows (navas)".
:: I don't understand the "In contrast to Stanley" part. Stanley does not say that Brahmins or other castes do not worship Khandoba. He just says that cult is largely non-Brahmin. "mainstream" may be contentious word. Non-cultic worship? The "Though the Brahmin presence in the cult is nominal," part was added to stress the difference between their worship and cultic worship. Also, "all castes" is an overstatement, Konkanasthas are recorded to have villified the deity and Konakanasthas from Konkan (their heartland) are not recorded to have worshipped Khandoba. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  15:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  "Khandoba is the god of those Marathi people who are low in social hierachy" as well as those higher. But saying "all castes" will be an overstatement. "most" is a better word. Do all Brahmin communities worship him or can you guarantee that some caste may not worship him and call Khandoba temples impure? I don't know how people miss the lead that says, so I am copy pasting it again in the worship section. Why do people object if people who are so-called lower in social hierachy (who play a much active part in the rites of the cult) preceed in mention those considered higher? Khandoba accepts "who are low in social hierachy", unlike some Brahmanical sects which kept them away. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  17:02, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Brahmin presence is the cult is nominal. The cult centres- the jagrut kshestras including Jejuri-do not have Brahmins as priests. Stanley calls the cult a non-Brahmin one. Traditional Brahmin rites like yagnas, Sanskrit mantras are discarded. The popular rites like Tali Bharane do not require Brahmin priests. Konkanasthas like Arun Kolatkar still writes without emotion about Jejuri . Is there proof that the "true" Konkanasthas do worship Khandoba? Do Karhades or GSBs worship Khandoba? "All" without a reference is a dangerous overstatement. A section on the domestic worship and Khandoba ghatasthapna in Margashirsha would be a great section. R. C. Dhere in his Khandoba book (Marathi) describes those (the summary of the book on Dhere's site says that), but I don't have a copy. May be you can acquire one. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  17:10, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

text:  The British records of 1871 do not say that Konkanasthas from Konkan worship Khandoba  (Harijans are described worshipping Khandoba, also Deshastha Brahimns and Marathas are described to have Khandoba as their family deity), nor do they say that "all" castes worship Khandoba. The British records categorically say in an instance that Konkanasthas imitated Deshasthas to worship Khandoba.  says: "after all, Khandoba is basically a deity of the bahujana samaj and also of the Deshastha Brahmins. [Arun] Kolatkar is a Konkanastha. Subliminally, could this be one more reason why Kolatkar has been able to achieve such a strikingly detached stance vis-a-vis Khandoba? " [emphasis as in ref]. "vast majority of Marathi Hindu people from all strata worship Khandoba" - which does not "all" - tallies with the facts. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  06:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

text:  "FIRST EDITION; 1880 SECOND EDITION (REVISED) : 1962". Must be a replacement of the D word in the 1962 edition. Would love to see to add more referenced material on non-cultic worship especially. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  14:15, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Proposed changes-II: Worship

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Under this topic, it has been mentioned that Mahlsa and Banai, the wives of Martand, were incarnations of Shiva's TRADITIONAL WIVES. Parvati is Shiva's wife, but Ganga never was. Ganga was married to King Shantanu, as per Mahabharat. Also, there is no source mentioned for this information. This should be changed. Vkhat1 (talk) 17:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legends 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion