Talk:Child-on-child sexual abuse

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Larrson
The most common feelings connected to sexual activities together with other children were excitement, feeling silly/giggly, pleasant body sensations, feeling good/fine, and appreciation of the event as natural (Table V). Boys more frequently reported pleasant body sensations than girls did ([[chi].sup.2][1] = 3.83, p = .050), whereas girls felt more guilty about their activities, especially in the younger age group ([[chi].sup.2][1] = 5.75, p = .017). However, girls also more often reported feelings of excitement than boys did ([[chi].sup.2][1] = 6.58, p = .010).
[...]
Of the respondents, 34 (13%) reported that they, before the age of 13, had had a nonconsensual sexual experience with another child, where they had been tricked, persuaded, bribed, threatened, forced, or otherwise coerced to engage. The gender difference was significant ([[chi].sup.2][1] = 5.26, p = .022), with girls experiencing more coercive activities (7% of the boys and 18% of the girls). "Humping" or pretending intercourse was the most common coerced activity reported by girls, comprising 64% of all coerced activities for the girls. The boys' experiences were more spread between different behaviors. Most of the children (20/34) were coerced into doing one or two different things, whereas in single cases they had to participate in a wide range of behaviors.
[...
The most common way to lead the child into the sexual activities was to trick the child (38.5%) or to tease and bribe (38.2%). Verbal threats (12.8%) or physical force (20.5%) were also quite common strategies. Only two children reported that they had been in some way physically hurt during the experience.
[...]
In 8.2% (6.3% of all boys and 9.9% of all girls), of all answers the respondents stated being involved in coercive sexual activities where they had been the initiators who led another child to the activity.
[...]
The students were asked about their present feelings, thinking back on their childhood sexual experiences. A majority of the young adults felt that their sexual experiences as a child were normal (60%). A third (33%) said the feelings associated with their sexual experiences in childhood were good at present. Twenty-eight percent said they felt nothing and 6% thought it was no good experience, whereas 20% felt sad, guilty, regretful, or confused about their childhood sexual experience.
Of those who had had sexual experiences with another child before the age of 13, nearly a third (30%) thought it had had a positive effect on them as an adult sexual person. Another 66% did not believe it had either positive or negative effects, whereas 4% apprehended the effects as negative. In the latter group all but one had taken part in sexual encounters with other children where they had been in some way coerced into participation and in one case the respondent had been the initiator.
[...]
                                                 6-10 years 
  
Item                                          Boys      Girls 
  
Talking about sex                             29.9       28.2 
Kissing and hugging                           33.9       44.4 
Looking at pornographic pictures              22.0       12.7 
Teasing at school by peeking in toilets,      26.8       13.4 
 lifting skirts, using sex words 
"Humping" or pretending intercourse           20.5       28.9 
Showing genitals                              28.3       22.5 
Watching people in bathroom, bedroom,          6.3        5.6 
 etc. who were unaware of your presence 
Other child touching your genitals            16.5       19.0 
Touching, exploring genitals of               16.5       19.0 
 other child 
You inserting objects into vagina/            10.2        4.2 
 rectum of another child 
Vaginal intercourse                            3.9        0.7 
Anal intercourse                               3.2         -- 
Putting penis in other child's mouth           4.7 
Other child putting penis in your mouth        2.4        1.4 
Other child inserting objects into your        1.6        2.1 
 vagina/rectum 
Sexual contact with animal/s                   0.8        0.7 
...
                                             11-12 years 
  
Item                                         Boys    Girls    p 
  
Talking about sex                            55.1     53.5 
Kissing and hugging                          40.2     45.8 
Looking at pornographic pictures             56.7     22.5    *** 
Teasing at school by peeking in toilets,     37.8     24.6    * 
 lifting skirts, using sex words 
"Humping" or pretending intercourse          20.5     19.0    # 
Showing genitals                             11.0      7.0    ss 
Watching people in bathroom, bedroom,        13.4      3.5    ** 
 etc. who were unaware of your presence 
Other child touching your genitals           10.2      4.9 
Touching, exploring genitals of               9.4      4.9 
 other child 
You inserting objects into vagina/            4.7      1.4 
 rectum of another child 
Vaginal intercourse                           3.2      0.7 
Anal intercourse                              3.2       --    * 
Putting penis in other child's mouth          3.2 
Other child putting penis in your mouth       2.4       -- 
Other child inserting objects into your       1.6      0.7 
 vagina/rectum 
Sexual contact with animal/s                  0.8      0.7 
...
Feelings About Mutual Sexual Experiences (%) 
  
                                   Age 6-10              Age 11-12 
Feeling                           Boys  Girls     p            Boys 
  
Pleasant body sensations          21.1   25.3                  25.3 
Excited (not sexually)            38.2   57.9     *            48.4 
Natural                           19.7   18.9                  18.9 
Good/fine                         19.7   14.7                  25.3 
Silly/giggly                      25.0   37.9                  25.3 
Sexually stimulated                5.3    2.1                  10.5 
Guilty                             6.6   14.7                   2.1 
Confused                           6.6    8.4                   2.1 
Scared                             7.9    5.3                   3.2 
Bad                                2.1    3.8                   -- 
Unpleasant body sensations         2.6    3.2                   1.1 
Didn't like it                     3.9    1.1                   1.1 
Mad/angry                          1.3    2.1                   -- 
  
                            Age 11-12 
Feeling                     Girls     p 
  
Pleasant body sensations     14.3     * 
Excited (not sexually)       36.2 
Natural                      20.0 
Good/fine                    16.2 
Silly/giggly                 22.9 
Sexually stimulated           5.7 
Guilty                       10.5     * 
Confused                      4.8 
Scared                        1.0 
Bad                           1.0 
Unpleasant body sensations     -- 
Didn't like it                 -- 
Mad/angry                      --
--AnotherSolipsist (talk) 23:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Rather that toss the whole thing though, can we leave the defining of normative vs. not to the reader?  Perhaps add language to indicate a broader encompassing of cultures.  It seems you fear a misinterpretation by the reader of this article, which I can understand, but are it looks overall like overcompensating for it. Again, I think a major failing of this article is the lack of editors. Legitimus (talk) 14:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay. That would, of course, entail *not* excluding research like Larrson's and Okami's because of our perception that some of their studied behaviors are normative. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: sounds like someone's poker buddies with Loki.  Come on, this has to be defined in social work or something similar.  69.140.209.23 (talk) 00:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Loki's Wager is not a fallacy when neutrality is necessary, as on Wikipedia. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 02:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

text: Okami's remarks are why I did not quote Gil or Johnson in the first place.  However, there is a study that does offer very comprehensive definitions, Araji (1997) that I feel are better.  I need to get a copy since it's a full book; more later.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legitimus (talk • contribs) 01:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I concur.  Indeed, I read over Shaw et al. (2000) in full again, and found that abusive behavior is defined not only by Shaw but the National Task Force on Juvenile Sexual Offending as follows: "sexual acts perpetrated on another without consent, without equality, or as a result of coercion."  That's pretty solid to me, because coercion alone is a tad too narrow.  For example, what if the victim is unconscious or incapacitated for one reason or another.  I also take this to include trickery and exploitation of another's ignorance, as these would represent a lack of equality in power.  Are we in agreement?  Legitimus (talk) 13:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I support the use of that definition and reference.  --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 18:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that Okami and Larrson are not relevant to the latest revision. Jack's strawman above overlooked the entire basis of my argument: that coercion, not "normality," defines actual COCSA. When COCSA is used to mean anything that's not normal, everything can be considered COCSA. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 19:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Let's not be confrontational.  We were getting hung up on use of certain words.  "coercive" seemed too limiting to me initially, but I could not put my finger on why until I read more information. "non-normative" seemed ok, but it's too relative and covers non-abuse (like excessive masturbation in public).  Hopefully this revision works.  Legitimus (talk) 20:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I've reviewed your revision and concur with the way you worded it.  I added a wikilink to the article on coercion that provides some good general context for the term. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 20:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Supporting my contentions

message: In replying to the PAW project page discussion noted above, I found some references that could be useful here.  I'm not adding them to the article right now, but here they are in case someone else wants to use them:
:*Child on child sexual abuse: psychological perspectives, Child Abuse & Neglect, Volume 24, Issue 12, December 2000, Pages 1591-1600:
:::"Conclusions: Children victimized by other children manifested elevated levels of emotional and behavioral problems and were not significantly different from those who had been sexually abused by adults."
:*Child peer sexual abuse: Preliminary data on outcomes and disclosure experiences:
:::"Conclusions: The findings suggest that child peer sexual abuse may be associated with adverse outcomes."
:* Child-on-child sexual abuse: An investigation of behavioral and emotional sequelae:
:::"A substantial proportion of child sexual abuse is perpetrated by adolescents and even younger children.... Important findings that emerged from this investigation are that victims of both adult and juvenile perpetrators suffer an array of negative, psychological and behavioral sequelae. "
:*Weiner,  Irving B. et al, Handbook of Psychology, p437, John Wiley and Sons 2003:
:::"Factors that suggest national incidence figures represent an understimate of child sexual abuse victims include the exclusion of child-on-child sexual abuse data, as well as victims' and professionals' underreporting."
:*Ellis, Rodney A. et al, Essentials of Child Welfare, p49, John Wiley and Sons 2003:
:::"Child-on-child sexual abuse has become relatively common in child welfare cases. It may occur within the family or by another child outside the family...  Disturbingly, it also happens to children in foster care."
--Jack-A-Roe (talk) 04:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: A few references found that could be of use in this article

message: I just want to say that the effects describe by the article ARE CORRECT I have experienced all of them and I think the point missed is the trickery,force or threats by the aggressor  effect the victim in no less a harsh way then if it were a 90 year old  abuse is abuse maybe because the criminal is young makes the effects on the victem less no.I think about it every day I used heroin have weighed upto 300lbs now I'm sober and 180 but my depression and anxiety are like a lead vest as the memories are too.my memories are clear as day and I've never told anyone face to face.Sorry my main point is the effects listed are no different then normal Sexual Violence by adults at least to the victem .  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.116.58 (talk) 01:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's quite ridiculous (not to mention harmful) to generalize the effects of your experience onto every victim of COCSA. I could just as (in)validly do the same with an anecdote of a person who experienced no such effects. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 02:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, though while anecdotal evidence is not valid, this user's remarks are somewhat consistent with Shaw et al. (2004).  Calling the effects exactly the same would be a misrepresentation, though.  For instance, there are more "performance" problems, shall we say, with COCSA.  However, on a more personal note, User:66.66.116.58, if you are continuing to have anxiety and other symptoms, you should really seek help from a mental health professional.  It's just better safe than sorry. Legitimus (talk) 18:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

text: I have to agree with AnotherSolipsist, as I was arguably coerced several times during my childhood, some of the memories I dislike, but many I actually enjoy.  I know this sounds odd, but looking at this article I don't exhibit any of the symptoms mentioned.  --99.138.131.193 (talk) 04:52, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Clearly different people rationalize traumatic experiences differently. Schoolstage (talk) 19:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Effects

message: i think this should be researched a little more.. get some statisics and just more information. Closchen (talk) 15:55, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I already told you why I reverted you; here, here and here. It's all in this article's edit history. Re-dding the material was a mistake, which is why I reverted it again. Medically, "playing doctor" does not include what you described. This article makes that clear and so does the Playing doctor article. Also notice that the Playing doctor article mentions that children have been labeled sex offenders for what they and/or their parents' described as playing doctor? People misusing the term "playing doctor" does not mean that we should be so irresponsible as to misuse it. Your text makes the assertion that playing doctor can also be a part of child sexual abuse, which is the exact opposite of what this article states; and that's a problem. You should not be engaging in any WP:Synthesis. You should be seeking WP:MEDRS (medical)-compliant sources for a medical claim. And when relaying legal/media stuff like you are relaying, the text should not be going against what the medical community states without being clear that it is a contrast to what they state. Your text also does not belong in the lead, per WP:LEAD. A bit of other stuff in the lead should be moved lower as well. Flyer22 (talk) 22:40, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  suggestions 

message: This phrase is rubbish. If you didn't tell a child anything, they would know everything when they've grown up?--95.116.231.217 (talk) 17:41, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You might think it is rubbish, however it does have three sources. And I wonder if your thinking it is rubbish, is based on a misunderstanding. The sentence just says that if you don't tell a child, for instance about anal sex, they would not know anything about it. Lova Falk talk 17:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: [ WP:EDIT CONFLICT ]. It's not rubbish because the point is that they don't know these things as children without having been exposed to them. If we took a group of people (a large group or otherwise) and had them grow up in an environment where sexuality was never discussed and there was no exposure to it in any form, then those people would not know of sexual things either...other than possibly discovering masturbation on their own and/or hormones guiding them to interact sexually with each other. Flyer22 (talk) 17:49, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incapable of knowing about specific sex acts without an external source 

message: I have 2 questions on this issue. 
1) Does it count if it is, in a strange situation, a younger child doing it on an older child?
2) Does poking someone in the belly button also count?
:Wikipedia is not a forum for personal discussions of the topic nor is it an advice column (WP:NOTADVICE).  The sources used by the article are quite clear that the age of the "perpetrator" is irrelevant.  The dynamic between two people is complex and affected by many variables besides age that contribute to whether actions constitute abuse.  If the article does not make that clear, then please suggest how we can improve that, though it should be verifiable in some way.Legitimus (talk) 15:41, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I was going to ignore the IP's comment since the second question seemed like WP:Trolling. And even now thinking that the IP may have meant using the penis to sexually poke someone in the belly button, as a form of non-penetrative sex, I still find that second question to be WP:Trolling. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  2 questions 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello! 
I would be adding one or more citations to this article as it aligns with my research interests and as part of an assignment to my trauma course. I would be using reliable sources such as peer-reviewed articles with information that's pertaining to the article and adds to its comprehension.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanielleGonzalez24 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding a citation 

message: Hello everyone,
I just want to let you know, that this article has been translated in a French version. I added some informations and sources some are in English, that might help to deepen this version. If you have questions or need help, you can answer to this topic and I would be glad to help. Kolibri libéré (talk) 16:59, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Invitation to add some sources using the French article