Talk:Adevărul

message: This article is listed on the NPOV backlog. Minor text edits. Since disputed text also appears to have been edited previously, and there's no discussion suggesting disagreement, the tag is removed. If you disagree with this, please re-tag the disputed section with  (or the article with ) and post to Talk. -- Steve Hart 22:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV cleanup 

message: If someone cares to explain the issue in 100 words or less I might chime in... Pcap ping 19:41, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently, the whole issue is whether Tapalagă's opinion should be given so much prominence, i.e. half a paragraph. bogdan (talk) 20:11, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  It seems WP:UNDUE as far as length goes, and that applies to the next full paragraph on the reaction of the guys from Cotidianul to the same issue. Of course, the competition took the opportunity to lampoon them; it's typical of the squabbles between Romanian journalists. I'm not sure why the obviously COI/biased reaction needs more space than the act itself. You'd think the entire Romanian press condemned them. (Rhetorical: should we add what Mircea Badea says about Cotidianul to that newspaper's article?) What about reaction from the readers? Was the circulation affect by this decision? Pcap ping 21:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

text:  To put this latest development in historical perspective, the departure of CTP and his team, which is a far more important event in the newspaper's history, is covered mostly in terms of bare facts and circulation figures in Adevărul#Changes in management. I'm sure there was a lot speculation and commentary by other journalists at the time on all that (can't be bothered to search much, here is one), but practically none of that is included here. By the way, this story has some interesting demographic profiles of the readers in 2005. Pcap ping 00:12, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sigh. For one, how's about un-tl;dr it if you wish to comment on it. Secondly, per the above and the message you left on my talk page, you seem to be either endorsing or promoting a traditional knee jerk reflex by assuming that, since some guy alleged that I had a POV in writing this or anything else, it must be so, and that various things in the article need to be read like that. The "I'm sure you could have done more" argument is both unfair and irrational: I have explained in detail why I think Tapalagă's statement is to be quoted in full (I'll say it again: because he makes a complex point), and that explanation is poorly addressed by pointing out how other parts of the articles could also be cited. Yes, I could have done plenty of [other] things, but just because I did them this way doesn't mean I had an ulterior purpose. The claim that there is a COI issue (and an "obvious" one no less) is ridiculous. The "bias" point is both moot (the opinion is cited as an opinion and attributed) and actually a slippery slope (any source has some "kind" of bias, but that does not make them unreliable or unquotable, so let's stop before we think of testing this with a witch hunt). As for Mircea Badea, as long as the opinions are traceable to a reliable source (not just published on his blog or simply voiced on his show), the answer is yes - not because he is right, not because he is unbiased, but because he is relevant; I don't consider him a decent journalist, and he may not actually pass the criteria demanded from news and opinions here on wikipedia (i. e., he isn't really a journalist in most definitions), but as far the other issues go, and on principle, I don't see why not. Dahn (talk) 04:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

text: And, in general, let's please stop inventing new criteria about what is and isn't relevant or quotable. As long as an event is covered by several outside sources, it is relevant, and the "what did it do for the circulation?" issue pointless. You see, in writing the article, I did not try to find a way to introduce my POV about the events, but coverage of the events, any events, as it came with the sources, positive or negative. My contribution to listing and quoting those sources was to the best of my abilities, and there's always "the one" missing. And sure, I myself find Tapalagă's article well-argued (which, again, is not the same as guiding oneself after it); but adding it was not done on the basis of that personal assessment, it was done because the piece is, no matter how Anonimu spins the deal, relevant enough, and the opinion was not and is not substituted for a fact. There is nothing in the rules that would even begin to define anything in this as bad practice, but quite the contrary. Dahn (talk) 04:22, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

text: One final point: so they're "typical" and "squabbles" - meaning: so this is not just your single-purpose definition, but the undeniable truth. Let's work with that hypothesis. But how does that address the point about their relevancy to the text and even to the real world? Even in that definition, we're left to work with them because this is the country we put up with. Claiming that the claims are dismissible as such is just as logical as the newspaper's decision not to publish news on politics. And, needless to say, wikipedia is not subject to such restrictions of content. Dahn (talk) 04:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your post above is why I generally didn't and don't edit articles on Romanian topics: to avoid having to deal with editors like you. (1) You assume that what I said to the (topic-banned) Biruitorul somehow was directed at you— that's your choice of identifying with him. (2) You claim that any commentary, as long as it's attributed, is not WP:UNDUE—only when it suits you. You posted a long rant on my talk page about how unbalanced another article was based on the same concern I raise here. Surely one can include any speculation/attack piece from Vadim in any article based your standard here. And I wasn't the one to write WP:UNDUE either. Having said that, I don't care about your reasons for adding silly speculation to this article from commentators who's newspaper went broke—which shows how much people really cared to read their opinions. Good day. Pcap ping 05:05, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Incredible... One of two relevant and still worth answering to part of your message is the argument made about Vadim: there would be an issue of WP:RS, not one of UNDUE in his case (and not just). In this particular case, no matter how many times you repeat it, it is neither, and I have never said nor implied that any commentary advantageous to any position is automatically good or up to the standards wikipedia requires. And after all, we will have to put with all sorts of claims extracted from Ziua etc. in Idunno how many articles. The other is the "when it suits me" argument, which is phantasmagorical - have a good look over this article, at the very least, and you'll see why it's quite the opposite of what you claim. Special pleading is your game, not mine. And it's reaching a level of audacity when you intimate assessments of such commentary as being "silly", "squabbles", "lampoon" while claiming to expose my own POV. Dahn (talk) 05:12, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

text: And maybe just one more thing: I have never in what you call my "long rant" referred to a similar argument. You kept reading that into it, even though I explicitly told you that it is not the case: the goal is to have commentary from all relevant sides, pro and con, but from reliable sources and properly attributed. Nothing similar with anything in this discussion, where you are suggesting we should remove comments that are attributed, significant and published in reliable sources. Dahn (talk) 05:24, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  tl;dr above 

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