Talk:Saxophone technique

message: Whatever works - often unusual, non-classical embouchures — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.92.132 (talk) 03:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: So spill the beans! What do you do that's different? -Egrabczewski 07:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jazz embouchure

message: Why is "on" better than "against"? I'm a sax player so maybe that biases me, or at least makes "against" not sound wrong to me, but to me at least "against" sounded better - though not enough better to revert the edit :-) RichAromas 22:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the comment. It's nice to hear from someone! ;-) In an attempt to get the wording as clear as possible, I was thinking about the sentence: "Instead, support the lower lip against the teeth. Then rest the reed on the lower lip.". In the previous wording, I used the word "against" twice, once to mean a lateral movement, the other to mean a vertical movement. So I thought I'd emphasise that the reed goes on top of the lower lip, whereas the lower lip leans against the teeth. But you've got me a bit worried now! Rather than it becoming an issue of personal preference, does the rewording give clear and unambiguous instructions? :-) -Egrabczewski 23:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point, and retract my concerns. I think the article is good as written. Thanks for your comments. RichAromas 02:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewording the Article

message: For anyone trying to follow this debate, let me refer you to the original version of this article which you'll find here. Not long after I wrote it, a few teachers made some highly critial remarks about the content and removed large chunks of the text. Let me first summarise their concerns:
Point 1
:The author of the page seems to be promoting the so called "saxophone" embouchure that does not roll the lower lip over the teeth that the only reference to is an out of print book circa 1928 by a self-taught sax player named Ben Davis. The claim is made that this is the embouchure taught by many teachers and is the preferred embouchure for beginners. In the U.S. the overwhelming majority of saxophone performers and teachers use and teach the traditional "single lip" embouchure as described in the book "The Art of Saxophone Playing" by Larry Teal (JTalcott)
Point 2
:My primary objection is calling the Ben Davis embouchure the "saxophone embouchure"; this implies that the other two are not saxophone embouchures (JTalcott)
Point 3
:Another objection is listing this embouchure first, noting that it is "taught by many teachers" and that it is the "preferred embouchure for beginners". This is simply not true (JTalcott)
Point 4
:Another major objection is the claim that the "single" embouchure is a clarinet embouchure, that it can quickly fatigue the face and cause lower lip biting, that it is an uncommon embouchure for the saxophone, and that most teachers have moved to the "Ben Davis" embouchure. This is false, false, false... (JTalcott)
Point 5
:The lower-lip-out embouchure is highly unusual, and does not merit mentioning in the article (SaxTeacher)
To answer these points I'm going to present the following argument:
Larry Teal, in his book The Art of Saxophone Playing, never uses the term "single embouchure" but only describes those qualities that make a good embouchure. His chapter on "The Embouchure" describes the facial mask, teeth, muscle support and development, jaw and mouthpiece alignment, the cheeks and tongue postion. His diagrams on page 43 show a lower lip clearly supported by the teeth, with a caption stating that the muscles support the lower lip.
Now the clarinet was invented in 1690, the oboe around 1790 and the saxophone was patented in 1846. It's fair to infer that the single embouchure existed around 1690 or earlier, the double embouchure around 1790 or earlier and that these were adapted to the saxophone after 1846. I say "or earlier" because it's probable that the single and double embouchures existed long before those dates, with the advent of folk clarinets and shawms in the Middle and Far East.
In researching this article, I came across a book by Ben Davis called The Saxophone printed in 1932. It describes three embouchures: the "new" saxophone embouchure, the "old" saxophone embouchure, and the "clarinet" embouchure; these are what JTalcott  describes as the "Ben Davis", the "single" and the "double" embouchures respectively. Davis gives his reasons for not selecting the "single" or "double" embouchures as ideal for the saxophone. Instead, he describes his "new" saxophone embouchure as comprising a distinct attempt at not consciously drawing the lower lip over the teeth. He says "only the thinnest part of the fleshy inside-lip is pushed over the teeth when the mouthpiece is in playing position. The rest of the lower lip will then form a sort of support for that part of the reed which is immediately outside the mouth". The book shows some "exaggerated" photographs, to help make the point. 
Now, let us look at a popular modern saxophone method book called The Jazz Method for Saxophone (1992) by John O'Neill, a student of Don Rendell, Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh. On page 12 he describes how to form an embouchure: "The lower lip should be very slightly turned in, about as much as if you were shaping to say the consonants 'f' or 'v'. Finally, remember to bring the corners of the mouth in towards the centre".
In both the descriptions by Davis and O'Neill, the emphasis lies in forming a firm lower lip, with the lip only very slightly turned in. The "new" saxophone embouchure by Davis, the saxophone embouchure by O'Neill and the saxophone embouchure described by Teal do not to contradict one another. Since Teal never uses the term "single embouchure", and since his description fits both the "new" and "single" embouchures, then they are both valid interpretations, the main difference between them is the degree to which the lower lip overlaps the teeth - however in both cases there is little or no conscious effort to do so.
Now let us look at a description of a clarinet embouchure from The Jazz Method for Clarinet (1993) by John O'Neill, who writes: "The lower lip should be slightly turned in, about as much as if you were shaping the consonant 'f' or 'v'. The corners of the mouth should be drawn slightly up and back towards the corners of the eyes. The effect of this is to activate the muscles of the lower lip and to stretch the area of skin between the lower lip and chin". Although in this version of the clarinet embouchure the lower lip is not drawn over the teeth significantly enough to be described as a "single" embouchure, note that the manner in which the lower lip is supported is quite different to the saxophone embouchure he described earlier.
The adaptations of the original "single" clarinet embouchure and the "double" oboe embouchure to the saxophone resulted in a unique saxophone embouchure, which was not exactly the same as for the clarinet or oboe. The famous "oo" shape of the mouth and and the bringing-in of the mouth muscles are much more important in the saxophone emouchure. Ben Davis was the first author (to my knowledge) to recognise this in print and Teal was the first to describe it in detail in 1963. On the other hand, Jaap Kool, in his 1931 book, doesn't even mention mouth muscles when describing his double embouchure for the saxophone. Yet many saxophonists were playing using the "new" embouchure in which the bottom  lip was barely turned in. 
On YouTube you can see for yourself examples of Sidney Bechet (1897-1959), Charlie Parker (1920-1955) and John Coltrane (1926-1967) using this "new" saxophone embouchure:
Bechet
Parker
Coltrane
Whilst looking for a good example of a clarinet embouchure on YouTube I found the following instruction video for the clarinet here in which the teacher describes an almost perfect "new" saxophone embouchure! This clearly demonstrates how the clarinet embouchure itself has developed over time from a "smiling" mouth position to the "oo" position of the "new" saxophone embouchure. 
For these reasons, and also because I use the O'Neill embouchure myself, I felt the "new" saxophone embouchure should be included in this article together with the "single" and "double" embouchures. The fact that I included all three implies that they are all valid embouchures for playing the saxophone. How could I do otherwise when, according to Fordham, the likes of Rollins and Coltrane used them! 
I have already accepted that we should remove all statements from this article about the popularity of each of the embouchures or which is preferred - the former can be substantiated from factual statistics when they become available, the latter are my own personal assessments. However, it's unfortunate that SaxTeacher and JTalcott decided to remove the "new" saxophone embouchure from the article given that it forms a distinct embouchure and is evidently in current use by many saxophone players.  
Perhaps you can better appreciate why I called it the "saxophone" embouchure in my original contribution; it's no longer "new" and far from being "highly unusual", it is highly prevalent among saxophonists today. 
Following the edits by SaxTeacher and JTalcott, this article now only covers USA usage of the saxophone embouchure. It needs to be widened to include at least a European perspective - something that I provided but has now been removed. 
I suspect the whole argument above might have been avoided had the article a more historical perspective of the saxophone embouchure. Any reader who knows enough to provide such a contribution would be most welcome. Egrabczewski 21:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ben Davis's "new saxophone" embouchure

message: Discuss here. -RobbyPrather (talk) 19:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Discuss the merging of this article into [[Saxophone#Embouchure|Saxophone > Embouchure]] 

message: "Saxophone vibrato is much like a vocal or string vibrato, except the vibrations are made using the jaw instead of the diaphragm or fingers."
I was under the impression that vibrato on the sax can be achieved using the diaphragm. I remember my music teacher telling me a jaw vibrato was "cheating". Can someone help me out here? Futuremyst (talk) 15:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vibrato 

message: Not a critique, just a suggestion: I don't know if there is any existing literature out there devoted to tone effects and voicing for sax, but I know there are more techniques than those described. Of course, it's quite possible that the saxophonist's Alexandria lies only in the experience of fellow players. In any case, I don't know where to look for research, but I think it would be nice if this section could be expanded.  Tryanmax (talk) 9:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tone effects 

message: So the article has multiple sections on embouchure which could be merged into one, as well as the opening paragraph of the article being irrelevant where it is. I'll not change anything for a few days to see what you guys have to say. Michael Hall (talk) 01:40, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've merged the embouchure sections and done a restructure. There's now a new intro paragraph as well. Storeye (talk) 08:51, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Cleanup 

message: So this article used to have three different embouchure sections that appeared to be written by three different people. I've merged them into one section at the start of the article with subheadings for different parts. In particular I've created a subheading for "individual approaches" in an attempt to remove the risk of people arguing over the 'best' embouchure. I've also deleted or requested sources for things that claim to be the 'best' or 'most natural' approach. I think it is appropriate to say there is a widely accepted 'correct' saxophone embouchure and to back it up with sources from the most recognized saxophonists and pedagogues but much of this article previously claimed specific approaches to be 'best' or 'usually taught first.' I think such information would be better in subheadings by practitioner. On that note, there is only one approach there currently so any paragraphs people can contribute on specific saxophonists' methods would be appreciated. Storeye (talk) 09:00, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different embouchure approaches 

message: "Single lip embouchure" seems to be conflated with the one style that has the lower lip tucked over the lower lip clarinet style.  In fact virtually all saxophone embouchures are single lip embouchures with rare exceptions.  Some big-name players have experimented with double-lip embouchures (notably John Coltrane, but that was when his teeth were hurting him) or other styles of no-teeth embouchures to achieve specific effects, but these are not taught.  The "Teal school" and the "Allard School" are about approaches to the single-lip embouchure with differences that are as much philosophical as technical.  Allard emphasized the jaw and lower teeth more, but neither advocates the clarinet-style embouchure or anything close to it.  The clarinet-style embouchure tends to be taught to beginning students, usually with alto saxophones, as a shortcut to get a satisfactory short-term result, but unless students are taught to go beyond that and develop some proper embouchure they tend to hit a wall.  If I had a dollar for every forum post from a student who was having trouble with the bottom end or developing good tone after being taught clarinet-style embouchure.....  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.208.11.42 (talk) 01:16, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusing terminology on embouchure