Talk:Demographic history of Macedonia/Archive 4

message: After the page is unprotected, I'm going to seriously trim and try to put together a new section on the ancient Macedonians that will be appropiate to this article's purpose, which is to detail the demographic history, not to mull over the Hellenic controversy or give an etymology of Makedonia, which we already find in Macedonia. Neither the previous version nor Miskin's version are appropiate to the article's topic. I want to focus on where Macedonians were settled, what lands they controlled and fought over in the area, their constant struggle with the Dardani, and so on. A short summary though, no extended material. I'm in no hurry, because I don't have all the references I want yet anyway. Decius 8 July 2005 05:55 (UTC)
First of all don't make a complete re-write. You should add the history of Paionians and all other nations which are included in the modern version of the region. Don't give support to the Slavic nation-building which wants to present it as if there's been only one type of Macedonians in history. Don't remove my section on the Greek ethnic claims of the Macedonian people, unless of course you question the authenticity of my quotations. This is something important for the article and something that the Slavic crowd constantly stries to sweep under the rug (as the previous version of the section reveals). Personally, I still don't see why the ancient section has to be here. It's obviously part of Macedon. Miskin 8 July 2005 09:09 (UTC)
:No, as long as this article exists, it's going to begin with the ancient history section. I am going to re-write (rather erase) much of the text because it is not pertinent to the aim of the article and it repeats themes struck in other articles (Macedon), and even repeats material. This isn't about your version, but also the previous version was off-track also. The new info will be more "nuts and bolts" and pertaining to demographics (references strictly followed, no loose interpretations). Decius 8 July 2005 11:34 (UTC)
:::I support completely Decius here. The section about the ancient Macedonians is abnormally large and repetative as much of stuff there is already present in Macedon and the Ancient Macedonian language. Birkemaal 9 July 2005 15:55 (UTC)
::::In case no-one noticed, many things are repetitive in this article. The difference is that before my edits, they were repeated "selectively". IMO the entire section "ancient Macedonians" is repetitive and irrelevant to the demographic history of the region. I suggest to remove the entire section, not just the things that Decius doesn't like. You have failed to prove that ancient Macedon expanded to the North prior to the Hellenistic Age, therefore I'm warning you in advance, do not try to edit the article with your dodgy views in mind. I'll be watching your edits. Miskin 18:53, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reworking ancient Macedonian section 

message: Whenever this page is unlocked, will someone please disambiguate the numerous links to "Greek", which is a disambiguation page (or drop me a note and I'll do it). Cheers! -- BD2412 talk 22:04, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
What are you referring to exactly? Miskin 18:46, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disambiguation repair needed 

message: Okay Miskin, even though it is not necessary to justify this article, I'm going to call your bluff. I'm going to cite (over the next few days, weeks, etc.) the solid references that indicate ancient Macedonian settlement outside of Macedonia (Greece) in the Balkans, and you're going to cite counter-evidence. Note that I'm not just talking about Paionia. And though I may restrict myself to the pre-Roman conquest, I do not see why I should not also discuss Macedonian settlements in the Roman period. Decius 00:26, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bring out the evidence

message: I'm unprotecting this article because it's been protected for a ridiculously lont time and discussion has died down here. --Tony SidawayTalk 18:53, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Unprotecting

message: Miskin, you should think about putting your quotes in Macedon. I am finding more and more quotes that can be posted to argue the opposite view; NPOV (which gives equal representation to views of virtually equal standing) would force us to present both side by side; now, that would be fine, except for the fact that going into such a prolonged discussion of the controversy is detracting from the aesthetic unity and purpose of the article. I expect objective editors to agree with a new compromise.  User:Miskin and User:Theathenae probably will not agree, but all they have in mind is seeing "Greek, Greek, Greek" across the page, it seems. User:VMORO might also prefer to overemphasive the alleged Greekness of the ancient Macedonians for his own reasons, but I don't know. But I think all editors should reconsider. Decius 00:25, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotations 

message: Excuse my intrusion, but Macedonia finally became a Roman province in 146 BC (see Andriscus), so it appears (maybe I'm wrong, who knows) that both the Miskin version ("3rd century bc") and the version VMORO reverts to ("4th century AD") is incorrect. Even if you incorrectly date it from 168 BC (the defeat of Perseus of Macedon at the hands of the Romans), that is still the 2nd century bc. ---Decius 05:09, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Inclusion into [[Roman Empire]]

message: A main thing that the Roman province of Macedonia article will be concerned with is determining the borders of the Macedonia province at different times. But for this article, the Roman borders are irrelevant, because this article concerns the geographic region as it is defined now, and thus Scupi in this article will be considered as part of Northern Macedonia. ---Decius 05:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I was considering two options: making clear in an introductory paragraph what is meant by Macedonia in the article; or specific explanations in each section (or even both). But in the case of Scupi, it appears that at times it was part of Roman Macedonia, unless all these maps (and many others) are wrong. Decius 12:37, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

text: I don't know how on earth can you see in your first map that Scupi is part of Roman Macedonia. In the same map you can see that Roman Macedonia includes Thessaly and great part of central Greece, this is why it can't be considered in this article. In Byzantine Macedonia however, Scupi is not part of Macedonia, and if you insist I will have to post sources and maps as well. I don't know how this changes anything, except the belief that Northern Macedonia was Latinized (something that's been said already). Miskin 12:18, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

text: That is your POV. This issue will be further discussed by various editors, including me, but I'm going to leave this point for today. A more pressing issue is why someone doesn't ban Igor Sterbinski's many IP's from Wikipedia already (see Macedonia article). Though he probably has enough back-ups that it won't matter. Decius 15:05, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: POV or no POV, why don't you just upload all the Public Domain old maps you can find (the older the better) in the article and get done with it?  People who want to read about Macedonia as a Roman province are best served by the maps themselves. Of what importance is it whether Scupi lay at this or that side of which border at this time or the other? Chronographos 15:43, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

text: Yeah, I'm planning on filling this stub article with maps:Roman province of Macedonia. It is in serious need of references so real text can be added to it, rather than a few sentences. It'll be handled eventually. Decius 15:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Maps are good.  Especially old engravings: not only are they aesthetically superb, but their copyright has expired by definition, making them perfect Wikipedia material.  Chronographos 15:57, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Northern extension of the [[Roman province of Macedonia]] at different times