Talk:Robert McNamara

message: There not a single mention that McNamara was informed within hours that the second attack in the Gulf of Tonkin had never happened and had been a result of radar glitches in bad weather and over eager sonar operators hearing their own ships propellers. This information was given to McNamara, but he never informed Johnson that it was not a real attack. This led to the escalations of war on false information. See "gulf of Tonkin incident" for a list of references.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.102.106.48 (talk) 15:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: "Gulf of Tonkin: McNamara admits It didn't happen"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HODxnUrFX6k  Heavenlyblue (talk) 23:36, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Also:   http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/gulf_of_tonkin/articles/rel1_skunks_bogies.pdf    Heavenlyblue (talk) 00:27, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: PDF moved to https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/gulf-of-tonkin/articles/release-1/rel1_skunks_bogies.pdf --Naaman Brown (talk) 18:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Complete white wash on Gulf of Tonkin 

message: "On November 2, 1965, protestor Norman Morrison set himself on fire in front of Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara's Pentagon office, after dousing himself in gasoline. After witnessing this, McNamara increased the bombing of South Vietnam with napalm three fold during 1965 and 1966." -- That's a pretty absurd statment. It suggests that McNamara decided to increase napalm attacks because of the apparent effectiveness he witnessed.
:Agreed.  It's quite absurd and beyond just suggestive.  I doubt he looked out and thought "People burning... now there's an idea!"   The two are unrelated.  It could be phrased that the person had done this to protest the use of incendiary weapons in Vietnam, but that despite such dramatic protests, the use of napalm increased.   But even that would be a bit suggestive, as I do not know if Morrison had that intention.DrBuzz0 19:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestive statement 

message: An earlier version of this page seems to have been lifted in large parts from his official government bio which can be seen at: http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/secdef_histories/bios/mcnamara.htm . I have no idea if that material can be considered to be in the public domain or not. But at the very least it should be mentioned as the source.
His official bio is very POV on many controversial subjects and I'm almost sure it reflects his own input. That should be kept in mind as changes are made to give some sort of balance. 168.127.0.51 17:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Uncredited sources for page 

message: I think the article is pretty good. Systems 3D, a pet McNamara project is missing, but it is hard to find online.
I think the guy who set fire to himself probably belongs someplace, but in an article on McNamara? Why? There's people everyday protesting a cabinet level officer someplace. Doubtless, some of them have died doing this. Big headlines at the time. Result: No big deal. Sells a lot of ink/videotape/whatever. But it probably belongs someplace. If you documented protests against every cabinet level officer, there wouldn't be room for much else. Since suicide is not a common Western way of protesting, a good case might be made for insanity, anyway. He could have protested anything: flouridation, civil rights, whatever would give him a headline that day. Might as well go out with a bang! Student7 00:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Um, if you watch The Fog of War, McNamara raises the topic of and spends a fair amount of time talking about this one protestor.  In fact, out of all the people who protested at the Pentagon during his tenure as defense secretary, this guy is the one he remembers.  The incident seemed to have affected him greatly, and I think it definitely belongs in the article.  Cheers, Skinwalker 12:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vietnam War 

message: RSM's time at the World Bank saw many changes under his supervision, arguably more important in effects than the V.War. I don't claim the ability to represent that period accurately, but would like to see that properly tackled. -- Wreford
On the subject of whether or not McNamara resigned from the Defense Department before heading up the World Bank, I didn't see any sources cited on the page to indicate that he did in fact resign, and on the subject it is noted that McNamara himself was not clear about this. David Halberstam, in his book "The Best and the Brightest" portrays it like this: "Without checking with McNamara, Johnson announced in November 1967 that his Secretary of Defense was going to the World Bank. The move came as a surprise to the Secretary and he did not know whether or not he had been fired. The answer was that he had been." I don't know if Halberstam's assessment there is accurate, but someone might want to look into that or cite a source which clearly shows that he did indeed resign before heading to the World Bank. -Owen
And to quote McNamara himself writing in "In Retrospect" (page 311, 1st ed. hardcover) -- "I do not know to this day whether I quit or was fired.  Maybe it was both."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.231.151 (talk) 08:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  World Bank tenure 

message: Is his middle name really Strange? He must have been teased at school because of it. =) This reminds me of a policy Amiga Power once took. If a reader signed his/her first or middle name with only an initial, they replaced it with a made-up name, like Cryogenics or Walfordsalad.  — JIP | Talk 10:39, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, mother's name before marriage was Clara Nell Strange --81.86.232.91 09:25, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added that info to the article, it would be great if you could provide a reference. Maikel 11:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Strange is a fairly common Anglo-Saxon family name. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

text: His mother was born Clara Nell Strange, now cited in the article. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:26, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strange? 

message: I'm wondering about the encyclopedicness of the external link posted by anonymous user User:68.173.19.193 that links to a page showing the political contributions made by the subject of the article.  The anon has evenhandedly posted the equivalent link on numerous biographical articles of persons both on the left and the right (e.g. Molly Ivins, Robert McNamara, Theodore Olson, Alex Kozinski, and several others), but despite saucing both the goose and the gander having these links in the articles doesn't seem right.  Yes, it's factual; yes, it's verifiable; yes, it's interesting; but it still seems like a sly bit of POV, particularly for each individual article viewed in isolation. I haven't removed any of the links but I'm curious how others see this.
I've posted this question on the talk pages of all four articles mentioned above in hopes that a wider spectrum of editors will see and comment. -EDM 05:01, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Its been removed from this article on the grounds that it doesn't contribute anything and amounts to advertising for a website. 168.127.0.51 15:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Campaign contributions

message: Readers, treat this article with caution. A significant portion of the topical coverage presented below shows signs of bias, opinion, and unsubstantiated fact. Few if any ciations are offered for ideas presented below. This page is not of sufficient quality to be used in academic research of any kind, or even to guide academic research.
Above unsigned comment by 165.123.153.235, 14:47, 29 October 2005
Uhhh, that's kind of true of the entire Wikipedia in case you didn't notice. God help anyone who relies on the Wikipedia as a reliable first source.--Wiarthurhu 18:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Status of this article: a note of caution 

message: The clearly POV characterization of the nuclear arms race and Vietnam as being among McNamara's "pet projects" is a) puerile b) unsupported and c) gone. Allenc28 12:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, they were his pet projects--Wiarthurhu 19:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you support your assertion? Allenc28 03:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pet projects 

message: In "The fog of war" McNamara says that he started research in Ford to reduce traffic fatalities, introducing the use of collapsible steering wheels, padded dashboards and seat belts.
He also mentions that the Ford Falcon was his personal project, originated by market research about who was buying VW Beetles in the USA in the 1950´s.
I think that all this facts should be mentioned, abut I am also afraid thta my english is not good enough.
I also think  that a new section of "Ford Motor Company career" split from the "Early life" section.Randroide 16:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ford Motor Company 

message: Despite supporting Kennedy in 1960 and became his SoD please remember he was, at this time, officialy registered as a Republican 83.24.223.250 13:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Democrat? 

message: Why do this article mention nothing about McNamara's frequent attempts to dismantle the U.S. military through out the 1960's? 216.201.33.20 22:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Disarmament

message: I think that :Image:Robert McNamara 1961.jpg might be a better choice for the infobox than the one that's currently there. They're both free images with part of his face obscured, but this one just seems more attractive to me. Anyone have any thoughts? -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 16:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox photo

message: McNamara's name appears in Mack the Knife (disambiguation) but no mention of the nickname appears in this article. It would be nice if one Wikipedia page corroborated another, wouldn't it? Yeah. Fat chance of that, though. It is Wikipedia after all. Where fact is voted on. --76.224.92.141 20:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mac the Knife 

message: Regarding the link (presently number 4) under the Trivia Section:
"A picture of McNamara's 1995 meeting with General Vo Nguyen Giap hangs in the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City, near pictures of John Kerry, Elmo Zumwalt, Warren Christopher, and other American dignitaries who visited Vietnam after normalization of relations between the two countries. [3] [4] (see photo #10 (Giap incorrectly identified as Mao)"
This links to an incredibly biased anti-John Kerry website.  The article is particularly misleading in that it sort of tricks the reader into navigating to that site.  I would have never intentionally gone to that site, but I was steered there on the grounds that I was looking at pictures of McNamara.
mlhwitz 19:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia section links to biased/political external sources 

message: Should we say something of the X programs? http://www.chaosmanorreviews.com/open_archives/jep_column-327-c.php connects "McNamara" with the end of series of "X programs" that included "X-1 gave us supersonic flight" and "X-3 Stiletto gave us the F-104 Starfighter". True history or false rumour, I don't yet know ... McNamara = Secretary McNamara and us = USA, I presume. -- Pelavarre 02:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  X Programs relevant? 

message: :Image:Fogofwar.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Fogofwar.jpg

message: There is a single incident listed, which is the attack on USS liberty, which is a highly controversial incident with many unclear details.  However, it is all presented here as undisputed facts.  A reference to the USS Liberty Incident would be in place here, as well as other references to his alleged links to zionism.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.249.146 (talk) 22:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, YouTube is not considered a reliable source.  Videos from YouTube is not a reliable source.  Second, your research into the subject constitutes Original Research.  You need to find a reliable third party source that says what you allege.  Third, your exposition on the facts, is violating the Neutral Point of View/BLP guidelines.  Issues that may be derogatory about a person are required by WP:BLP to be deleted on sight unless they can be substantiated via reliable sources.  As for your threat to keep adding the text to the article.  You can be blocked and the page can be protected if necessary.  I am not opposed to the material being in there, ASSUMING that it is done so via reliable sources and according to wiki-policy.Balloonman (talk) 22:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links to Zionism 

message: The allegations about zionistic trends is a pure violation of WP:BLP and WP:OR and has been removed.  Before readding it, please familiarize yourself with the policy and make sure to cite the appropriate sources.Balloonman (talk) 05:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: First, YouTube is not considered a reliable source.  Videos from YouTube is not a reliable source.  Second, your research into the subject constitutes Original Research.  You need to find a reliable third party source that says what you allege.  Third, your exposition on the facts, is violating the Neutral Point of View/BLP guidelines.  Issues that may be derogatory about a person are required by WP:BLP to be deleted on sight unless they can be substantiated via reliable sources.  As for your threat to keep adding the text to the article.  You can be blocked and the page can be protected if necessary.  I am not opposed to the material being in there, ASSUMING that it is done so via reliable sources and according to wiki-policy.Balloonman (talk) 22:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  BLP 

message: Is there a source for this? I just read "In Retrospect" and the parts where he talked about his childhood and President Kennedy's election I got a strong impression that he was Catholic.
Starzaz (talk) 21:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Presbyterian? 

message: Who thinks that the section entitled "Involvement in USS Liberty Incident" is blatantly POV?
TuckerResearch (talk) 21:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Involvement in USS Liberty Incident 

message: I couldn't find any where in the article Robert McNamara's children's name's. does anyone have any idea what they were/are?
~Another McNamara~  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.79.245 (talk) 16:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  His children 

message: Robert McNamara was a Republican who served in the cabinets of two Democratic Presidents. How this rare cross-party appointment doesn't get a single mention in his entire bio comes across as strange (no pun intended - Strange is his middle name) to me. If you check, for example, controversial cabinet members such as Henry Kissinger or Donald Rumsfeld, you'll see they're listed as Republicans. Bob McNamara should at the very least get "Republican" listed next to his religion in his infobox. In accordance with WP:BOLD, I'm making the edit. Sadistik (talk) 15:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: POV?

message: I am confused about the following sentence:
"He eventually succeeded in ending the program, which continues to be seen as one of the largest blunders in automotive history, in November 1959."
Which thing was seen as a blunder, the idea of building the Edsel in the first place or McNamara's cancelling of it?
129.2.56.198 (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cancelling Ford's Edsel wording 

message: Years ago I saw some documentary in which he was blamed as over ruling military experts about the need for chrome plating of M-16 rifles, which lead to them jamming up with a high frequency. Anyone with information as to the truth of this?
71.127.17.39 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 21:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: sounds like rummy (don rumsfeld) overruling the generals on how many troops needed for iraq warCinnamon colbert (talk) 15:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Did he cancel chrome plating on M-16 rifle?

message: why is Dispatches by M Herr and the best and the brightest by Halberstam not on the ref list ? The fist is key to undestanding the Vietnam war, surely the defining event of McNamaras life, and the other has a lot of bio material.Cinnamon colbert (talk) 20:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing refs

message: The article begins.
Robert Strange McNamara was born in Oakland, California. His father was Robert James McNamara, sales manager of a wholesale shoe company. His mother was Clara Nell Strange McNamara, whose maiden name was given as her son's middle name.[4][5] Both parents were of British ancestry.
I was just wondering where this came from ? McNamara is a traditional Irish name, completely of Gaelic origin, he even describes himself as 'That damn Irish man" in the Fog of war and is listed in Irish-Americans_in_the_military, is there something amiss?
My account is new, and I can't edit yet, but I'm pretty sure he is of Irish decent.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by CormacGuerin (talk • contribs) 17:32, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Cited sources say "British," Britain means not only England, but can also mean Scotland, and at the very least, Northern Ireland. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The cited sources say his parents (plural) were of British ancestry. Strange (his mother's) is an English name. His father could easily have had ancestors from Ulster (which is indeed mostly British) and/or may also have had other English or Scots ancestors on his father's side. McNamara is an Irish name and he called himself Irish but as I said, it could have been McNamaras from Ulster, who may even have married Brits. Hence, RM could have been, say, as little as 1/16th Ulster Irish (that 1/16th would still be British) through his paternal (father's) line. More sources on this are indeed welcome, but there is no blatant conflict in having all British ancestors, carrying the name McNamara and calling oneself "Irish." If you want to carry this further, you'll need to cite some reliable sources. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no more reliable a source than his own mouth, and he refers to himself quite blatantly as Irish in 'The Fog of War' as someone mentioned earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.189.5 (talk) 01:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: As I've already said, one can be Irish and call oneself Irish and have parents whose ancestry was wholly British. To this day, about a third of Eire's Irish population lives in British Northern Ireland. Either way, so far, the cited sources say his parents' ancestry was British. Without further reliable sources, there's not much more to talk about here. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

text: No, I didn't say all Irish Catholics who immigrated to the states would be taken as British, I said Irish who emmigrated from Ulster could be called British. However, the pith is, the article cited two reliable sources which said his parents were British. As we know, reliable sources can be flawed, moreover when they deal with topics brushing on the political. Thanks for the new source. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Updated. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Now this is only a guess, but given that RM was Secretary of Defence for the first Irish Catholic president of the US, which was somewhat controversial then, the flaws in the sources may stem from that time, owing to the propagandists not wanting the public to be aware that both the president and his SoD were of Irish ancestry. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:06, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancestry 

message: Will someone who has edit capabilities on this article please fix "emmigrated"?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.232.158 (talk) 12:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done.  Frank    talk  17:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Emigrated

message: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003991119
Wow, just wow. 208.70.31.206 (talk) 04:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Someone tried to throw him overboard from a ferryboat in 1972 

message: Mcnamara's drafting of men with low mental ability, known as project 100,000, reduced the number of men drafted from middle class families whose parents would have been far more effective resistors to government policy.  This was a crime against humanity of the most cynical and destructive sort.  His position that ex-cabinet members must leave the stage of public discussion seems very convenient, when thirty years later he admitted lying about the rationale for maintaining the war (secret information that he admitted in 1995 did not exist).  Had he protested the war from 1968 onward, well over half the lives lost by all sides in Vietnam might have been saved.  Since he admitted lying and the project 100,000 is a matter of public record, the conclusion that he was a willful war criminal who committed crimes against humanity and focused much of it on persons of poor intelligence and little political influence is inescapable.
The present Wiki article does not address this with the strength justified by his admissions.
This writing draws on published work of Joseph Galloway and the New York Times as well as my memory living through the times.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.109.33 (talk) 18:11, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Admission of Crimes Against Humanity 

message: The "Early life and career" section of this article mentions nothing about McNamara's working for the Ford Motor Company and eventually becoming its president. The article makes it appear as though McNamara did nothing between World War II and becoming Secretary of Defense. I suspect that the article may once have had some content about his experience at Ford; if so, it should probably be restored to the article. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ford Motor Co. 

message: I have heard old vets (advisors) to Vietnam speak of McNamara as being referred to as "Black Mac" by (now) North Vietnam, and that they knew he was the brains behind some of the deadly devices the US used there, and that they had targeted him for assassination.  This seems like a far-reaching goal.  Perhaps a more significant adddition to this article would be from the perspective of a Vietnamese editor (here on wikipedia) that could reference any materials from Vietnam's perspective at that time (~1959 - 1965).  Another way of saying this is that the current article reads almost entirely from the perspective of the West and mainly from a US POV. Bridgettttttte (talk) 05:22, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Black Mac" 

message: Someone keeps editing the page to add "zombie slayer" in the introduction. Is anyone aware of Mr. McNamara's history with the undead?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.108.253.36 (talk) 05:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hee, hee. Music to a copyeditor's ears. Lucky for you it's priceless, or you'd be getting my bill. EEng (talk) 00:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

text: Perfectly appropriate. The article is about the man, not just his Vietnam role, and that he appears in a promiennt video game 50 years later says something about his place in popular consciousness. EEng (talk) 21:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zombie slayer? 

message: His SecDef Bio is so much larger than his WB bio.Phd8511 (talk) 14:08, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disproportinate 

message: There's no mention in the article of McNamara's attempted assassination in South Vietnam. 74.69.11.229 (talk) 18:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  assassination attempt '63 

message: I believe a section on the TFX fighter-bomber scandal involving Secretary McNamara needs to be added to the article. On November 24, 1962 Secretary McNamara awarded a six billion dollar contract was awarded to General Dynamics, a Texas and New York defense contractor, rather then to Boeing, a Washington and Kansas contractor. The charge of corruption was awarding the contract for political purposes, electoral votes, in a general election. The Pentagon had reccomended that Boeing make the TFX fighter-bombers since Boeing was technically superior and less expensive. Deputy Secretary of Defense Roswell L. Gilpatric had legal representation interest in having awarded General Dynamics the contract. Secretary of the Navy Fred Korth was forced to resign for having financial connections with General Dynamics. Both Korth and Gilpatric were found culpable for conflict of interest in awarding the TFX fighter-bomber contract to General Dynamics. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:37, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  TFX fighter-bomber scandal 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Uses the phrase "such as the wildly successful Edsel."
I don't think the Edsel qualifies as a success, much less widely successful. Thisdaytrivia (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed this. Joegoodfriend (talk) 20:58, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  wildly successful Edsel 

message: As of this iteration of this article, there are two notes sections and one reference section. Is there a reason for this? Could these be consolidated? Any comments, let's discuss. Thanks KConWiki (talk) 14:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: One reference section and two notes sections in this article

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Content sourced to the book Imperial Brotherhood: Gender and the Making of Cold War Foreign Policy has been removed in this edit. I agree with the remover that it would be good to have at least one more source dealing with this kind of analysis. However there seem to be such sources in the following paragarph: Both paragraphs were added in a single edit by : Special:Diff/1156809227. They should be seen as a whole. —Alalch E. 23:02, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: In the second paragraph, the claim that McNamara's insecurity and desire to look tough "came to fruition" is complete original research, as connecting his pro-war beliefs to his personality is not supported by the sources. The fact that the first paragraph is all cited to a singular source (thereby likely providing undue weight), combined with the fact the editor in question who originally added this information appears to be an WP:SPA, leads to me believe this information should be removed. Loafiewa (talk) 23:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll remove both paragraphs and see if something can be repurposed. Thanks.—Alalch E. 00:00, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contested edit: Gender history perspective