Talk:Byzantine calendar

message: As the article notes, the so-called "Byzantine calendar" is a calendar traditionally used by Eastern Orthodox Christians.  One finds this usage currently as well - cf. for instance the website on "Orthodoxy in China" - .  In addition, plotting the correspondence of dates with the standard C.E. calendar would be a supremely useful tool for a historian, since, at least in Byzantine, Russian, Romanian et.al. history the "year of creation" dates continued to be widely used at least to late 17th century.  For this reason, I would like to request that this dating system be placed into the calendrical correspondence charts which are provided for each article dealing with a given year.  Thank you. 140.180.139.102 22:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am copying your request to Template talk:M1YearInTopic. However, I do not see any use of AM years in the citation after a cursory check. — Joe Kress 22:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Calendrical correspondence charts

message: Why the birth of Jesus Christ in Byzantine calendar is placed in the Gregorian calendar in 6 BC ? Maybe Should be in 0 BC ? --ΩΑΡ (talk) 11:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Because the death of King Herod the Great was about 4 BC and he was responsible for the Massacre of the Innocents in his attempt to kill Jesus as an infant, one modern estimate of the birth of Jesus is 6 BC. However, many estimates of the year of the Nativity exist, ranging from 8 BC to AD 9, so I don't think his birth should even be mentioned in a list of otherwise precise dates. I am not aware of any traditional Nativity date in the Byzantine calendar—but a date of AD 9 is well attested in the Alexandrian era invented by the Alexandrian monk Annianus at the beginning of the 4th century which was used by many Byzantine clerics (Maximus the Confessor, George Syncellus, Theophanes the Confessor) from the 7th to the 9th centuries immediately before the Byzantine Empire adopted the Byzantine calendar in the late 10th century. An Incarnation in AD 9 is indeed the first year of the Ethiopian calendar for this reason. — Joe Kress (talk) 19:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: I recommend that this entire article is either amalgamated, or entirely replaced by the article of the same subject over at OrthodxWiki, which gives much more detail and is heavily documented: 
:Byzantine Creation Era at OrthodoxWiki.  216.254.167.221 (talk) 21:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. 216.254.167.49 (talk) 03:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Recommendation

message: I propose that the article Etos Kosmou be merged into this article (Byzantine calendar), because it is precisely the same subject, and the term "Etos Kosmou" is basically the Greek rendition for "World Era", which is identified already in this article.  It will make the overall product and subject coverage stronger.  I have added the appropriate tags in both articles. Would appreciate any ideas/feedback.
One point however, is that the Etos Kosmou article has already received some ratings on its Talk page. If the article is merged here into Byzantine calendar, I presume the assessments will have to be redone for those listed projects/categories, in the re-worked page here. The reason for moving Etos Kosmou here, and not vice versa, is that this article (Byzantine calendar) currently contains much more information, references, sources and work, and the information on Etos Kosmou can be assimilated relatively easily; also, the term "Byzantine calendar" is known much better (in the English speaking world). Cheers, 216.254.167.49 (talk) 03:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger proposal

message: 1. Byzantine Eschatological Thought / Millennialist Expectations.
This is an aspect of the calendar that I think ought to be mentioned briefly in the article as well. A discussion of this subject can be found in: Paul Magdalino. The Year 1000 in Byzantium. Byzantium in the year 1000.  pp. 233-271. 
Magdalino writes that the historian A. Vasiliev raised the subject of Byzantine eschatology for the first time, only to dismiss it again in his article in the 1940's; but subsequent evidence has signalled the importance of the first Chrisitan millenium to Byzantines, the dates of which they projected in their history. Just some of the many dates Magdalino provides as examples of the Byzantine mindset around the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries include: 
* 6533 AM (1025 AD) - was the conventianal Byzantine date for the millenium anniversary of the Resurrection.
* 6500 AM (992 AD) - some forecasts expected the end to occur in 6500 AM, the half-point of the 7th millenium. 
* 6388 AM (880 AD) - was significant because it was 888 years from the Incarnation.
* 6200 AM (692 AD) - not only the Council in Trullo took place, but also the building of the Dome of the Rock, and the Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius, with a prophecy of the last emperor. 
The point to be made here for the purposes of this article, is that the Byzantine culture and mindset was one (as was similarly the case in the Middle Ages in the rest of Europe), which projected apocalyptic and key events from the Scriptures onto their history, using (in their case) the Byzantine calendar as the measure "from the foundation of the world", (a phrase by the way that occurs repeatedly in the New Testament).
Additionally, there were apocalyptic forecasts towards the end of the seventh millenium (7000 AM = 1492 AD) in Moscow that should be mentioned; the Byzantine Empire had already been conquered in 1453 AD only 39 years earlier, adding to the anxiety in Moscow as the year 7000 AM approached. 
2. Lunisolar or Solar?
I think there should be more details written in the article about the mechanics/specifics of the Byzantine calendar itself. On the one hand, the 19-year lunar metonic cycle was a factor considered in its initial development, yes; however, on the other hand, in its yearly, monthly and daily usage it is stated that the calendar was identical to the Julian calendar, which (as I understand it) was predominantly a Solar-based calendar.
SO, from what I can gather, although the lunar cycle was an important factor in the development of the calendar, nevertheless in its actual usage it was like the Julian (Solar-based) calendar; correct? (unless there is evidence that shows that the calendar was used like the Jewish calendar, a Lunisolar calendar that did depend upon the movements of the moon in its actual usage). 
Furthermore, the following statement is given in Magdalino's book (cited above), which may be mentioned in the article describing the Byzantine calendar: "Geological time was unknown, and the astronomical time-scale of the ancient Babylonians, Egyptians, and  Greeks was categorically rejected" (according to the primary source account of George Syncellos, cited in Magdalino, above, p.239).
 
Any feedback to either of the two areas would be appreciated.:)
ΙΣΧΣΝΙΚΑ-888 (talk) 02:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I cannot discuss the millennial aspects. The differences between the solar Byzantine calendar and the solar Julian calendar are already given in the article. The lunar calendar attached to the solar Byzantine calendar was identical to the lunar calendar attached to the Julian calendar, briefly discussed at Computus#Julian calendar, meaning the Paschal full moons (Nisan 14) were on the same dates. Hence the Byzantine Easter was identical to the Julian Easter. However, the specific techniques used to obtain these full moon dates and their days of the week in order to determine the next Sunday differed. But I have not studied the Byzantine method in detail. — Joe Kress (talk) 06:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: 2 Suggestions for Improvment

message: I am concerned that the wording in the St. Hippolytus paragraph isn't entirely objective, but actually dogmatic, as is it the only paragraph in the article that uses "the Lord" (frequently) to refer to Christ. Kaly J. (talk) 21:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Dogmatic wording

message: This article is far, far too long. It needs to be broken up, with a summary given, having links to the new articles created by the breaking. 174.62.239.194 (talk) 03:43, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too long 

message: Greetings,
I dared some corrections in the section "Key dates according to the Byzantine era". But it seems to me that there are more mistakes and necessary changes. I hesitated to do them, because they seemed more extended. So, I thought I should rather share some thoughts.
-- One great mistake is the statement that the Roman Empire was divided into Eastern and Western Empire after the death of Theodosius. This is not correct. For administrative purposes, Roman empire was separated into two parts, "Eastern Roman empire" and "Western Roman empire", since many centuries before. Each had its own emperor, considered fully equal with the other. For some reasons (long wars, economic collapse, migration and wars with the Northern peoples) Western empire collapsed since the fifth century. Convetional date is 476 AD, when no new emperor was appointed and sent to replace to previous one.
-- The reference to Mohammed and the angel is totally irrelevant, and should be removed. Also, well..., is the visit of the angel to Mohammed a historical event?
-- References to "eschatology" and the "eschatological significance" of some dates are probably interesting, but they should be included in another article. They were surely no "key events of the Byzantine era", unless one accepts the eschatological claims. So, it also necessary to change the point of view when writing the relevant article.
-- In another section, it is said that the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed in 1453. This is not correct. What happened were long centuries of Ottoman advance, which started after the battle of Mantzikert in 1071 AD. Last to fall was Kriti (Crete) in 1669 AD. It is true that the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD has a special significance, since it was the capital. But this wasn't the "collapse of Byzantium". After the Fall of Constantinople there was a Byzantine empire of Nicaea, in Pontos, which lasted until 1461. Also, there was another revival in Mystras, in Pelloponisos.
Regards,
user name : Mastros  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mastros (talk • contribs) 11:12, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corrections 

message: Is this a joke?  How can we use modern methods to second guess a calendar that's been dead for 300 years?  Did it work for them?  Are we supposed to go back in time and convince them not to use it?  This whole section is ludicrous. 138.162.128.52 (talk) 13:03, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur. It's ludicrous. A lot of it is just opinions. I propose we eliminate it. 155.213.224.59 (talk) 15:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Disagree with both of you. It's not "just a lot of opinions", but perspectives described from a variety of reliable sources. I can't see anyone, including the sources, "second-guessing" the calendar. Yes, it's no longer in use, but yes, it obviously worked for them. And no, we can't go back in time. It's those suggestions that are ludicrous. What is also very poor is the section title: "Criticism". You evidently have taken that to mean some criticism directed at the calendar, but the word is being applied in a more scholarly sense of "taking a critical look" - in other words, "analysis". But it's still poorly applied here. I'm changing the section title to "In Historical Perspective". Better? Evensteven (talk) 16:22, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Criticism Section 

message: This article was written so bad that most people would not understand what it is about. There are no links to other calendars! Hebrew, Muslim... calendiers should be linked to the most ancient that is Serbian calendar, indeed  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.244.217 (talk) 05:33, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The article could certainly use some work, but you should read up on glass houses and stones. — LlywelynII 06:57, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: BAD WRITTEN

message: was September 1 for accounting purposes but September 8 (Mary's Birth) for the liturgical calendar per this source. Is she wrong? because, if not, it's worth mentioning in the article. — LlywelynII 06:55, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: New Year's

message: You should add also the year of the Creation in the Star temple in 5509 BC, if we look on all faiths equally, according to Slavic Aryan Vedas and Ynglism or Inglism.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:EE2:2D01:BD00:5D25:CA44:95B1:4C5B (talk) 06:28, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slavic Aryan Vedic Calendar 

message: Our wikipedia page here currently claims in the lede that "Ἔτος Κόσμου" is "abbreviated as ε.Κ.". I am not very experienced in this subject but I don't think this is correct and I have no indication it is true.
Firstly, ε.Κ seems to be based on the logic of μ.Χ. and π.Χ.; however, the Χ is only capitalized there because Χριστόν is a proper noun, and I have found no indication online that κόσμου or κτίσεως are treated as proper nouns.
Secondly, none of the sources cited around this claim use or mention the "ε.Κ." abbreviation in any form. That is, neither "How Old is The World?: The Byzantine Era and its Rivals" nor the referenced section "Οικουμενικόν Πατριαρχείον" of ΘΗΕ seem to use this abbreviation. (I may have just missed a use, of course.)
Therefore, I think the term logically should be "ε.κ.", but also I, personally, can't find any sources using it one way or the other. Dingolover6969 (talk) 23:36, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "abbreviated as ε.Κ"