Talk:Chokha

message: A chokha (Georgian: ჩოხა; Azerbaijani: çuxa; Russian: черкеска) is part of the traditional male dress of the peoples of the Caucasus. It has been in wide use among Georgians from 9th century until 1920s[1] and among Azeris between the 17th and the 20th century.[2]
''
The first sentence should make clear what exactly it *is*.
Interpolating from the whole article, it's probably the "coat" part (?) - but this should be made clear initially!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.61.157.244 (talk) 23:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this a joke? 128.177.102.51 (talk) 04:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: ?

message: I dont know whoever u are but here is a news for you "friend" you can not assume some stuff and then sell them as facts on global internet encyclopedia. It is called Plagiarism just in case u did not know. Just because Russians Call it Cherkeska what it is cherkessian dress al the sudden now? The dress derived in Georgia and has been in wide use among Georgians and northern caucasians including Adigeans and Vainakhs for centuries. Dress can not belong to no nation or caucasian ethnic group they all contributed at some point. However Talaveri (Chokha) originated in Georgia due to constant conflicts and invaisions. North caucasians used longer coat compard to Georgian version and later on it became known as general caucasian Chokha, however general caucasian chokha derived from Georgian most likely Kartl-Kakheti Chokha most likely first in Wainakhs and than in adigas. Georgians used heavy fur coat along with talavari called Nabadi (in Georgian means extra atribute or extra cloth on talavari). Azers call it Chokha, maybe they somewhere called it Circassian chokha but it does not mean it is Circassian does it?  in that case Georgians could say that State of Georgia achivements belong to Republic of Georgia but it would not work aut so would it?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.219.138.254 (talk) 15:55, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  for sawserok 

message: Assumptions?? how old are you anyway?
first of all the first link you put here are Women's dress called "Sai" of courese it is not "Talavari" the second link you can see the one who wears green?, what is it like??? what it got on his chest? (those are princes by the way) and look the others around him they got the "Nabadi" on them and if you look very well you can see that they wear the known Caucasian Cherkesska.
and the photo i uploaded there written : the first man 1 - Georgian prince and the middle man 3- Circassian miltia man from Anapa drawn by Gagarin
this is your original "Talavari" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Georgian_costumes.jpg
even your daggers are not straight originaly.
you say it doesn't matter if Azeris and Russians call it Cherkezi and Cherkesska, you think this fact has no weight? is it a coinsidence that two nations called it "Cherkes"?? one from north and the second from south? (not to mention that Azeris are far from us), Azeris are close to you geographicly how come they didn't called it Gurji (Georgian) Chokha? i gave you proofs facts that are on the table, it is you who conclude things, you put that Abashidze 1985 refference, but how can i know if it is authentic? show me refferences from the internet and not from books that are not reachable, i can post a book name too that you can't reach, it is easy you know.
Circassia was barely populated??? what if i will tell you that there were more Circassians living in the caucasus than Georgian? even now after a genocide and in diaspora we still 3-4 million and Georgians today 4 million, how much you think we would have be if there were no genocide??
Georgia was a formal country with formal army and formal police, but Circassia was never a formal country it had no army nor police but tribal laws and tribal warriors, so tell me to what kind of status the caucasian coat is more likely fit to be??
Do you think that in Georgia every man was armed from the legs to the head and walked around in the streets? where was the army where was the police?, while in Circassia all were freelancer warriors, invaded by many enemies (just like Georgia).
you say the coat came from mountain areas then why the Khevesurs didn't wear it? (in fact they wear a real authentic Georgian cloth from medieval times)
there was a time in medeival era that Kassogs (Kabardians) invaded Imereti in medieval times then you adopted the cloth (until now you got Cherkezishvili surnames in Georgia descendents from Circassians) later Circassians put the bandolier on the chest when gun powder was reachable, even the Russians call it "Gazari", in Circassian language "Kezarix" which means reachable, not to mention the "Shashka" sword in Circassian language "Shashkua" which means large blade (even in the new photo you uploaded that written Georgians with authentic Chokha they hold our "Sahshkua"), facts are facts.
and you wrote this bullshit there that because Persians and Turks invaded Georgia they called the cloth Chokha so tell me suddenly Georgians throw the "Talavari" name and adopted the Turkic-Persian name for their national cloth??!! well excuse me nobody will take this seriously, now this is a nice theory of you nice assumption.
Even your Adjarian cloth is taken from Pontic Greeks, even in your dances you dance "Shalakho" which is danced in Azerbaijan and Armenia, and you play the Armenian "Duduk" and call it "Duduki", and what the dancers wear in "Kintauri" old Tbilisi dance?? is it Talavari too?? if you coppied these things then only God knows what other things you coppied from others... Sharwali, Arkhalukhi
please excuse me i didn't want to write this but i have to, you are just another nationalist Georgian liar.
We indeed adopted many things from Georgians, we adopted Christianity and Churches of Georgian type, we adopted polyphonic songs from Georgians, but Georgians adopted many things from us too and that includes the known Caucasian coat.Sawserok (talk) 13:27, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  for you Georgian 

message: I have separated a huge text in the main article in different section. Section titles have been added to the content which makes it easier for reader to navigate through article. If you guys have any other ideas, either about new sections or Titles, please respond.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.5.242 (talk) 20:13, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Section 

message: Your change was full of spelling, grammatical, and Semantic mistakes. If you violate the Wikipedia rule again, I will be forced to use POW Violations against you. There has been no peer reviewed article that has claimed that Chokha has originated from Kaftan dress, although it does sound like an interesting theory. It is widely held, however, that evolution of Caucasian national dress is full of borrowing and adaptations of the previous styles. It is widely held that the bandoliers across the chest of Chokha/Talavari were integrated into Caucasian Chokha from Pontian Dress (originally intended as pockets). It was first integrated into Georgian dress called Chakura (which is very similar to Chokha/Talavari, very short version of it). Influence of Asian (MONGOLIAN) and Middle-eastern cultures resulted in derivation of Chakura to make it little bit longer (reaching down till the knees). This type of Dress spread throughout western and eastern Georgia (usually known as Kartl-kakhuri chokha). In North Caucasus, the dress further derived, the coat reached all the way down till the toes (which is considered as North-Caucasian chokha). This type of chokha later became popular in some parts of Western Georgia as well (Abkhazia, Megrelia, Guria). Although in mountainous parts (such as Svaneti, Racha, Mtiuleti, Tusheti, Samachablo and Kakheti) the shorter version of the dress was preserved. This is why General Caucasian chokha is considered as longer Version of Kartl-Kakheti Chokha (and vice-verse).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.14.144 (talk) 17:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sawserok, please do not make an unauthorized changes in the article, without discussing it in the talk first. 

message: One of the editor must have confused Kartl-kakhuri chokha with city dress. In the article it says that the rope was ussualy warn without the belts. This was true only in case of urban dresses. There is also picture posted in the wikipedia of group of men wearing kartl-Kakhuri chokha. Reader must have been confused by this mix up. There is also a reference text from Samoseli-Pirveli which describes the different types of Chokhas that have existed in Georgia. I have fixed the mistake and now the section is more convergent to the actual bibliographical source and the picture, represented in the article.
--69.121.14.144 (talk) 03:32, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  There is a mismatch between original source and the text in the article as it relates to Kartl-kakheti chokha 

message: Can someone add the Circassian name of this dress? It's called Цые /tsiya/ in Adyghe language.--Adamʂa123 (talk) 01:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circassian name 

message: This is the very first question on this talk page, and appears to have been lost in some ensuing content debates, but it still isn't answered in the article:
:What kind of garment is "Chohka"?
There is nothing in the early parts of the article to answer this. Scrolling down, one can find a picture that shows coats or shirts. So is that what Chohka is? A kind of coat or shirt? Or maybe that's too specific and this is why the question hasn't been adequately answered. Maybe Chohka is a broad category of upper-body clothing? Any kind of shirt, coat, jacket, robe, etc. from the Caucasus? Please tell us! -- Perey (talk)
Now we can all argue who brought this caftan to Caucasus and who invented it in 9th century, be it Alans or Khazars or Iranian etc. BUT 19th century cherkesska with bullets on chest is a military attire used heavily in West Asia and Caucasus including Persia and the Ottomans. Its very silly trying to claim a military attire that was used by a lot of ethnicities as something that belongs uniquely to one country. Its very ethnocentric too. It seems like this page is trying to associate a medieval clothing with an army coat. If that's the case I just can pull out pictures of Turkmen male caftans and make claims that chokha/cherkeska actually derived from that. Normiehater (talk) 08:16, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  What ''is'' Chokha, anyway? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The double-s variant of the Russian and Ukrainian nomenclature is being used throughout Wikipedia. According to ngram, this variant wasn't used until 1913, and appears to have been reiterated in texts predominantly by means of the quoting of a single source: compare google scholar for cherkesska as opposed to cherkeska (the latter being found in multiple individual academic works). While I'm not particularly fussed, the single-s variant is an accurate transliteration, and probably makes more sense to use (although the double-s should remain as a redirect).
Do any other editors have strong views on the matter? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm guessing the double s is a variant designed to help English speakers get the stress and vowels right (not CHUR-kis-kuh or chur-KEEZ-kuh). I'd further guess that you'll find it more commonly in military literature where linguistic accuracy isn't the priority, and foreign terms are learned through oral transmission, in the field. I'd say the double-s is a borderline case of a naturalized loanword, but it's hard to judge, since it's so specialized. Ibadibam (talk) 01:55, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cherkesska vs. cherkeska 

message: Why are you deleting the fact that Chokha is part of Intangible cultural heritage of Georgia? And why are you also deleting information about Georgian word Talavari being before Persian word Chokha came into use? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lemabeta (talk • contribs) 11:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intangible cultural heritage of Georgia 

message: Since when is it normal to edit wikipedia without mentioning of a reliable source?
I request that admins and experienced staff look into this vandalism ზურა 6446 21:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unjustified changes 

message: It's a military coat that is worn by countless ethnicities. The gazyrs aren't Georgian, even the caftan has multiple origin theories, all of this said should suggest that it isn't Georgian and definitely not something worn *only* among Georgians. Other Caucasians also wear cherkeska at festivals and formal gatherings, we also wore this caftan throughout history and we also used the coat with bullets during the war. This page is very biased, I can't believe they added "Adjaran chokha" section, have you even seen the outfit Adjarans/Laz people wear? It looks nothing like the cherkeska people in the Caucasus used to wear. This page is purposely misleading. Assigning an ethnicity to a military clothing is so petty and spiteful. I have no words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherkezy (talk) 08:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I know that the Chokha is used by Kuban and Terek Cossacks who are more Ukrainian however I was wondering if it ever reached Ukraine, because the famous picture of Ukrainian dictator Hetman Pavlo Skoropadskyi(Павло Скоропадски) shows him clearly wearing a Chokha. I don’t know how he would have chosen to wear it after all, though from an ancient Ukrainian line he was born in Germany. However his father served in the Caucus perhaps the Chokha came from his father. I was wondering if there was information on Chokha in Ukraine, also if they may have become used in Ukraine after the Hetman since most Terek Cossacks where deported to Ukraine. 47.229.144.239 (talk) 05:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Chokha is a part of intangible cultural heritage of Georgia"??Seriously?? 

message: Which source says that Chechens in 9th century used to wear Chokha? Georgian historical sources say Georgians did but there's no written source of other Cuacasians wearing it in 9th century.--Lemabeta (talk) 08:06, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chokha  

message: so...no organization like UNESCO granted chokha as the intangible heritage status to Georgians? Georgians gave themselves that title? I've seen people share many links and all of them are in Georgian, there isn't a single outside organization to support this. -- Cherkezy 08:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Georgians wear and have been wearing Chokha, thus it is them who decide, is it their cultural heritage or not. We are not judges here, we just bring to the reader the fact, that Georgian Ministry of Culture, recognized . It is not only UNESCO which does this, it is also possible at the national level. It is similar to architectural monuments, there are thousands of protected monuments in the countries, and UNESCO includes not all of them but some. --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 12:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intangible cultural heritage 

message: Stop vandalism against Georgia’s culture!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.224.196 (talk) 16:36, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neglecting Georgian culture 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure)  Turnagra (talk) 09:10, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Chokha →  – i tried changing it but it says the page title "cherkeska" already exists and it redircts to the same page title "chokha'. the word chokha is used only among one ethnic group and the clothing is mostly known as the "cherkeska" and its not appropriate to call a clothing that more than one ethnic group wears by a word that only one ethnic group uses Cherkezy (talk) 09:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

text: This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 12 March 2022 

message: Someone has been including gay pictures in the article. There was one where two Tushetian men were holding hands in a Chokha which I removed. Please do not add such pictures to this article. MojeTata2329 (talk) 09:00, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Gay? What evidence do you have for :File:Groom wearing a chokha on a Tushetian wedding.jpg being a gay couple? Nothing mentioned about "gay" in the image details. No other images suggesting such. 09:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gay pictures being added to the article  

message: "Chokha" National clothing of the peoples of the North Caucasus and Georgia. Armenians and Azerbaijanis have other clothes similar to Persian clothes 195.19.124.174 (talk) 12:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Armenia and Azerbaijan