Talk:Jack Kerouac/Archive 1

message: or does it seem that Kerouac's work must have some sort of heavily pursued copyright imposed upon it? Kinda ironic, I'd say. Mostly I think this because finding anything on him, about him, him speaking, or any of his texts is just about impossible. Anybody know who own's his estate and how the money from his books are divided up? Why are there so few online texts of his work? Peace.
:it's not just you. There is a long history of controversy about Kerouac's estate. It recently flared up with the insane "copyright protection" that the curator of the On the Road scroll imposed on it as it toured the country but it has caused a lot of bad feelings over the years since his death. It's always hard to know who's right and who's wrong, but the owners of the estate are the relatives of Jack's last wife, Stella Sampas. Kerouac once said something to the effect of "I don't want a single penny of mine going to my wife's millions of Greek relatives." well, it did. and they seem to be milking it for everything it's worth. the dharma bum 20:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, I think he married her near the end of his life and never really lived with her -- didn't get along with her that well as I recall. But, as you say that is the way with relatives and estates KarenAnn 22:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Is it just me?

message: "Kerouac spent his life in the American landscape and with the people that fill them."  Perhaps there's a very simple perception struggling to be let loose here. Wetman 04:53, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Initial comment

message: he supposedly wrote a book called rimbaud, but i can't find any info on it anywhere. it's listed under a list of books he wrote in the front of a copy of (i think) "desolation angels". i have no idea if it's poetry or a novel or essay or what. 64.12.116.5
:Poem first published in Amiri Baraka and Hettie Cohen's Yugen magazine (6) in 1960, then by City Lights Books as a 5"x25" broadside; only 2000 copies were made; printed on two sides and folded in fifths to make a 5"x5" book titled, Rimbaud.   Also included in the collection, Scattered Poems, published by City Lights, 1971.  --Viriditas  | Talk 07:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  rimbaud??? 

message: Because the introduction refers to the trip he took with Leary, it makes it sound as if drugs were something Kerouac came to late in life as he sought 'deeper meaning'. Kerouac,and the beats he mixed with, took drugs from very early on. Benzedrine and marijuana were the preferred choice (with the ntoable exception of Burroughs , who was a morphine addict for a long time). The benzedrine could be brought legally and was sniffed. 
Kerouac did trip with Leary but was very much against it. He beleived LSD was some sort of Communist plot to undermine minds of the youth of America.
The drug that caused him most problems was legal: alcohol. He was an alcoholic by the end of his life (in fact, he was suffering from the DT's on the day On The Road was published to critical acclaim and unable to attend press conferences etc.). He describes his alcoholism graphically in 'Big Sur'. He died form liver disease (I think).
:I believe you are right, for the most part. (I don't know about the Communist plot part) but he did not like drugs the way Boroughs or Leary did. I'm quite sure he was really an alcoholic all along. And I'm pretty sure he died of a bleeding ulcer from alcohol consumption.  KarenAnn 22:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kerouac and Drugs 

message: The entire Influence section is getting out of hand. The number of cultural references to Kerouac and his contributions is staggering. Is it time for a Cultural Influence of Jack Kerouac article, or does this section need to be cut down?  RasputinAXP  talk * contribs 02:54, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no objection to splitting the article off to Cultural influence of Jack Kerouac. It sounds like a good idea. --Viriditas  | Talk 13:48, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, after really reading it closely, it seems more like Cultural references to Jack Kerouac than anything else. I'll work on splitting it off.  RasputinAXP  talk * contribs 02:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Works for me. --Viriditas  | Talk 02:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Split off to List of cultural references to Jack Kerouac. Wordy, but accurate.  RasputinAXP  talk * contribs 20:10, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice job. --Viriditas  | Talk 23:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influences section 

message: Taken from the French language article on Jack Kerouac:
* Kirouac Family Association
-- Mathieugp 19:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Kerouac lineage 

message: :"Ironically, his books are often credited as the catalyst for the 1960s counterculture, even though Kerouac considered himself a political conservative who supported the Vietnam War and disapproved of the hippie movement."
As I write this, I'm watching a documentary called "What Happened to Jack Kerouac?" . This documentary contains footage from an interview with Jack Kerouac where he says that the hippie movement is "just the younger generation" of what he and the Beat Generation were. He does go on to criticize some of their behavior, such as the protests, etc., but he doesn't really say that he disapproves. So, I was thinking that maybe the above paragraph could be edited a bit to reflect the nuance in his views. He seemed to embrace the hippie movement to a point. I mean, he seems to have had a somewhat parental view of them; he saw that they were a continuation of what he started, but was a bit disappointed with how they were carrying on the movement. -- Andrew Parodi 16:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In 1952, Kerouac coined the term "beat generation", and defined it as: "members of the generation that came of age after World War II who espouse mystical detachment and relaxation of social and sexual tensions, supposedly as a result of disillusionment stemming from the cold war."  There is no question that members of Kerouac's generation, as well as the characters in his autobiographical, but fictional works, On the Road (1957) and The Dharma Bums (1958), were at the vanguard of the 1960's counterculture, and anticipated the "rucksack revolution" of 1960s hippie culture.  William Burroughs said that Kerouac's books, "...opened a million coffee bars and sold a trillion Levis to both sexes...Woodstock rises from his pages."  However, Kerouac, the man behind the words, the conservative, pro-war Catholic, was completely at odds with hippie culture.  His last published article, "After Me, the Deluge",  makes his disapproval clear (you can read a copy of it online; see page 15, pdf). "Kerouac famously hated hippies, supported American efforts in Vietnam, and admired National Review," writes Nick Gillespie in a review of Making Peace with the 60s, by David Burner. .  Carolyn Cassady, ex-wife of Neal Cassady says, "It killed Jack to be taken up by (hippies) and made responsible for what happened in the 60s."  Cassady also seems to claim that the hippies "hijacked" the beat movement.  —Viriditas | Talk 04:39, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

text: From my reading, I've read direct quotes where he distances himself, but does not dissaprove. He just does not want to be associated with the Hippy movement. LilDice 19:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Disapproved of the hippie movement?

message: I don't understand the statement in the introduction - "he used alcohol, psilocybin, marijuana, and benzedrine, among others to study spiritual teachings such as Buddhism)" I've read most of Keruoac's books, I never remember that connection. Sure he abused drugs and alcohol  -- no doubt about that. He also studied Buddhism, no doubt about that. But I dont recall ever reading about him explicitly using drugs and alcohol to study Buddhism. Someone care to explain/correct me on this? LilDice 20:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you're absolutely right. Feel free to reword/rework that as you see needed. -the dharma bum 21:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed the buddhism bit and also the list of specific drugs used. I think it's silly to list the drugs a man used in the intro to his biography. I have no problem listing later, but is it really relevant in the second paragraph? LilDice 23:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well done. I wholeheartedly agree that it was completely out-of-place in the first paragraph. -the dharma bum 17:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Drugs to Study Buddhism?

message: ===Buddhism===
I think the subject of Kerouac and Buddhsim could be a good expansion point, plenty has been written on it. I've found a few things on google book search so i'm going to start.
===Death of Brother Gerard===
A major event that shaped Jack's life. Could have it's own section. LilDice 17:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Expansion Ideas

message: A major event that shaped Jack's life. Could have it's own section. LilDice 17:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Death of Brother Gerard

message: Obviously shaped his life and death. LilDice 23:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: His relationship with his Mother

message: Could put religious/spirtuality section with buddhism and catholocism section underneath. LilDice 23:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cathlocism

message: The sentance ...indulging in the alcoholism that would eventually be his undoing. Was removed, I don't think this violates NPOV since Kerouac did die from alcoholism so I think it's relevant... LilDice 17:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took that out -- the article makes this point clearly in the second paragraph and in the last sentence of the 'Life' section.  Having the point made a third time in a reference to a bar that he frequented seemed to be beating the point unnecessarily.  SteveHopson 18:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gotcha that makes sense. I was just looking out that the article didn't become overly sanitized. LilDice 18:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alcoholism that would be his undoing. removal

message: Removing the direct links to video clips of Kerouac might be necessary, but is there a way of mentioning that there are clips available on www.YouTube.com? I read many Keroauc books, climbed under Raton Canyon, stood by his grave in Lowell, all before I ever saw a clip of him 'in motion' as it were. It was great to see him reading from his books and being interviewed on the TV. I would like to think that others may have that discovery  too. Stephenjh 08:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: You Tube Video

message: ARTICLE SAYS:  The Town and the City was published in 1950 under the name "John Kerouac" and earned him some respect as a writer. It is heavily influenced by Kerouac's reading of Thomas Wolfe and it reflects on the generational epic formula and the contrasts of small town life VS the multi-dimensional and larger city.
As a reader, I don't know what you mean by "the generational epic formula."  Is there another page on WP that talks about what this is?  If not you should explain it or cut it.
69.141.55.46 20:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  generational epic formula 

message: According to Schizophrenia.com, Kerouac was diagnosed with Schizophrenia (or dementia praecox as it was known then) while serving in the american navy. I am confused as to why it would not be mentioned once here. 
There is a big problem with that as especially back then there was a huge disparity between any two psychiatrists in hopefully even arriving at the same diagnosis given the same patient, and even less that it was correct.  With what we have learned about mood disorders, it is far more likely Keroauc had one of those.  Whether it was severe enough to rate in the bipolar category, or worse, a mix of bipolar and a schizophrenic spectrum disorder is totally speculative.  Clearly he had dark and manic moods.  We know this as he says so much in his writing, including his first sentence in On the Road where he makes reference to just rebounding from an immobilizing depression.  His facility with words, metaphors, and emotions makes him not schizophrenic in any dianoseable sense.  His alcohol may have been self medication, as his benzedrine, etc use.  One for slowing down a racing mind, one for speeding up a depressed one.  His ability to form adult relationships goes against schizophrenia.  There bipolar people who also have personality disorders such as bipolar with schizotypal personality disorder.  In fact, today, schizophrenia has been reframed into a whole spectrum of disorders from schizotypal mild traits to full blown immobile autistic schizophrenia.  And there are those unfortunate folks who's bipolar moods can take on psychotic qualities and change perceptions, maybe a little, maybe a lot.  There are others who have seemingly an independent bipolar and schizophrenic spectrum disorder.  His relationship with his father was fraught with complex difficulties and apparently so was the one with his mother. The end of On the Road reveals Neal Cassadys appeal to Keroauc as a father figure and a repeat of his relationship with his father, yet curiously Cassady was younger than even Keroauc.   He might have just come across as a "screw-up" in the military and for lack of what to do with him, they diagnosed him away.  He even writes in his stories he had a host of short lived jobs which seemed to all end with him going off the reservation within a few weeks to a few months.  He could get hired at marginal general labor type jobs, and then quickly grow disaffected to where he was basically fired or knew he was about to be.  He couldn't keep a focus for very long and even his stories are chock full of interesting single chapters that just don't seam together very well.  You don't really feel like your reading a progressing story, but more a mish-mash of interesting single chapters.  Any one sentence can be brilliant enough.  But do two chapters ever really go together?  That's a stretch.  On The Road for all its manic intensity and hijinx of a college break road trip has a very depressing underbelly with all its adult themes of bleak futures and locked brains.  It was optimistic of the greater theme of a growing spreading America, but very negative about the personal growth of any individual beyond a grim bravery to survive and endure the life thrown at them.   Keroauc had the unusual quality of the gifted writer's eye in the hands of an extremely immature child.  He died awfully young.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.101.236.168 (talk) 00:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes.  Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).  The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome..  See this site and use it as your reference. —Viriditas | Talk 01:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schizophrenia 

message: In the Life section, the author states that Kerouac's bail was set at $100.  However, if you click on the Lucien Carr link, an author on that entry states that Kerouac's bail was set at $2500.  I'm just pointing this out in case someone knows the actual amount, and would like to post accurate information.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.19.82.68 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good catch.  We should probably just remove it until the accurate figure is confirmed. —Viriditas | Talk 21:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Life section:  Bail amount 

message: There is today a very surprising Le Devoir article on Jack Kerouac's French writings:
: Les 50 ans d'On the Road - Kerouac voulait écrire en français
I translated the article to English here:
: 50th anniversary of On the Road - Kerouac wanted to write in French
-- Mathieugp 20:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kerouac's French writings 

message: Shouldn't we include Allen Ginsberg as "influenced" by Jack Kerouac? I mean, throughout the article, there is talk about Ginsberg's fascination with him. But, whatever, it's nothing earth-shattering. Wobblies 16:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ginsberg as influenced... 

message: . . . is widely discussed. But not here. Why? Please take a look at this, for starters: "Some Kerouac enthusiasts have been upset by Amburn's contention that the alcoholism that plagued the novelist's adult life was mainly attributable to Kerouac's repressed homosexuality. Amburn writes, "rigid divisions such as hetero-, bi-, and homosexuality do not fit reality, certainly not Kerouac's, and should not be used to label him. Though everyone seems to have a genetic inclination in one direction or the other, it is dangerous to use sex to define anyone" (32). Despite this disclaimer, Amburn seems continually to suggest to the reader that Kerouac was more homosexual than heterosexual, and that an understanding of Kerouac's conflicted sexuality is the key to understanding his life and thus his literary works." Haiduc 12:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's definitely a lot of material there, however Amburn's opinion runs against Jim Christy's, etc.  It's sort of an interesting subject to speculate about a writer's sex life, but how do you approach this in an encyclopedic manner?  Perhaps a "personal life" section? —Viriditas | Talk 09:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  His bisexuality . . . 

message: Why is it that the listing of Kerouacs influences and those he influenced listed as so:
"Thomas Wolfe
Jack London
Marcel Proust"
Instead of like this: "Thomas Wolfe, Jack London, Marcel Proust"
Why is Kerouacs like this and not anyone elses? Heck, Ginsberg and Burroughs--both contemporaries and friends of Kerouac--aren't even like this. I have take the liberty of formatting it like every other author infobox because 1) In this format, it is unnecesarily long, and 2) No other author infobox's are like it. I mean, Kerouac is a special and unique author, no doubt, but that doesn't mean his listing format should be any different than anyone elses.
The only way I think I could agree with formatting it the "long" way is if the other authors infobox's on this site are formatted as such. Lets discussRimbaud 2 20:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Format of the influence/influences section of Kerouacs infox