Talk:A Wizard of Earthsea

message: Harry Potter is not and should not be the frame of reference for all children's fantasy! Needs a mild rewrite -- Tarquin
:Done. -- Henriette
::Nice job :-) -- Tarquin
Does "The Worst Witch" have anything to do with Le Guin? If not, that ref should be on a Harry Potter page, not here. Vicki Rosenzweig
: No it doesn't. But neither does HP have anything to do with LeGuin. It's merely another "school for wizards" book for kids. -- Tarquin
::See Harry Potter influences and analogues#Analogues for a chronologically ordered catalogue. The creator of Potter and Hogwarts J. K. Rowling has credited Le Guin as one inspiration, iirc. It may have been more recent than LeGuin's 2005 remarks, even prompted by them. --P64 (talk) 20:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: harry potter

message: Recently, this:
:In the end, Ged confronts the shadow that hunts him, and defeats it by realizing that it is his own shadow. He calls the shadow by name, that which was thought to be nameless; he calls it "Ged". In doing so, he reconciles both sides of himself and takes responsibility for his past mistakes, which until then, he had run from. 
was replaced by this:
:In the end, Ged confronts the shadow that hunts him, and defeats it by realizing that it is the shadow of his own death. He calls the shadow by name, that which was thought to be nameless; he calls it "Ged". In doing so, he reconciles both sides of himself and takes responsibility for his past mistakes as well as his own mortality, which until then, he had run from.
I really don't think it is an improvement. But perhaps "shadow" should be linked to the Jungian concepts, or something?--Niels Ø 20:36, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
::I wasn't happy with that edit, either. I don't think UKL is talking about mortality at all -- except maybe, remotely, as one single aspect of the Shadow; it certainly isn't central. And, anyway, as we find out in the last books, that land whence it comes isn't really death at all, but only some inadequate substitute for limbo. Linking to Shadow (psychology) would be super-duper, IMHO. –Hajor 01:49, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Quite right. Kind of silly to identify it and then have Ged unable to defeat it because of its namelessness. Clarityfiend 23:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

text: It's certainly not just you; see the themes section, where the connection is mentioned. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:19, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shadow 

message: For a full explanation, see below under the discussion of its name. I disagree with the view above that Ged runs from his past mistakes.  This is certainly untrue, since he takes full responsibility for them from the moment he recovers after unleashing the shadow.  This is why he loses all his pride and ambition, he fears at first to use his power at all, and he acts very responsibly afterwards, always concerned about the consequences of his actions.  He does NOT deny or ignore his past mistakes at all!!  On the literal level, what he runs from is just an unknown creature that threatens to possess him.  Symbolically, his running from the shadow represents being ruled by passions and lacking self-knowledge.  At this time in the story, he is ruled by fear, but earlier he was ruled by pride and ambition.  Yes, "gebbeth" refers to a possessed person--probably someone possessed specifically by their own spirit of death.  The threat of becoming a gebbeth symbolizes the common condition of being ruled by one's passions.  
I'm not sure what is meant by the last remarks about silliness, but I think there's misunderstanding.  First, the shadow is NOT nameless, so its being nameless is NOT the reason he cannot defeat it.  Secondly, he never "defeats" it but reunites with it or reestablishes his natural bond with it through recognizing it as himself.  The problem initially is that Ged does not KNOW the shadow's name because he does not understand that it is his own spirit of death released from the land of the dead.  Symbolically, it represents Ged's egotism, passions, or irrational nature, and his naming of it at the end represents his final understanding of his own nature.  As explained below, the story is an allegory about the quest for self-knowledge and self-control.  Moreover, true names in Earthsea are directly connected with the true nature of things, which is not only the basis of magical power but related to understanding the nature of the world.  Those who are mageborn can guess true names because they have an innate understanding of the true nature of things.Seoulseeker (talk) 21:18, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Symbolism of the Shadow

message: Is it just me, or does a guy going on a quest of learning and self discovery that ends in re-integrating himself with the dark side of his personality sound a bit Jungian? 82.1.7.156 (talk) 17:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It's certainly not just you; see the themes section, where the connection is mentioned. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:19, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Jung?

message: Deleted "The author is famous for her science fiction and fantasy works; over her career she has received about an award a year, among them a total of ten of the most prestigious of them all, the Hugo and Nebula awards."
While probably true, this has nothing to do with the book itself. If anything, it should go in the Le Guin article. Clarityfiend 20:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Trivia Removal

message: Someone adopted a semi-creative form of vandalism for this page (replacing all B's with "Chunky" and all d's with "sex"). If I could easily fix it, I would, but I don't remember how to revert a page. Samer 12:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: This doesn't fit here, but doesn't fit anywhere else so... This page does almost nothing except provide a summary for would be readers.  Why doesn't it have more detailed summaries and analysis like other books.  (To Kill a Mockingbird for example)  This book has issues on growth and about tragic heros and flaws.  Surely this is reason enough to at least try to improve this page?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slein (talk • contribs) 03:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: needs summary

message: :Image:Wizard earthsea.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Resolved. We have exemplary FUR for the image currently used. --P64 (talk) 20:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Wizard earthsea.JPG

message: "March 16", Anita Silvey's Children's Book-a-Day Almanac. 2011-03.
quote
:"March has been set aside to recognize the contribution of small presses to our literary heritage. ...
:"Le Guin was best known, probably as she still is today, as a writer of adult science fiction and fantasy novels like The Left Hand of Darkness. In 1967 the publisher of the small California publishing house Parnassus Press, Herbert Schein, wrote to Le Guin, asking her to consider writing a book for children/young adults. Schein had published Ishi: Last of Her Tribe  by anthropologist Theodora Kroeber, Le Guin’s mother. Although Le Guin had not considered writing for this audience, she crafted a coming-of-age story, A Wizard of Earthsea, set in a fantasy world.
unquote --P64 (talk) 15:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin at Parnassus Press 

message: The title of the Indonesian translation really is just the English title. See picture of its cover on Goodreads and in this Indonesian review. 
--Thnidu (talk) 04:36, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title of Indonesian translation 

message: I am not certain whether the list of translations is encyclopedic content. Wikipedia is, after all, not a directory. We don't seem to have anything substantive to say about any of them, we're just listing them. I'd like to hear other folks' thoughts, though. Vanamonde (talk) 18:25, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I tripped over this issue awhile back; I was going to start an RFC, and then never did anything about it. The problem is that some want those lists, and others don't, and it's hard to find any guidance at all. You can read a little of my take here and here. — Gorthian (talk) 05:26, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I see. In that case, an RfC might be best. I'll start one here shortly. Vanamonde (talk) 06:34, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not sure if you noticed, but I readded the translations section according to the GA review conducted by Chiswick Chap. Given that, would you still read the RfC as consensus to remove? I would, but I was involved in the discussion, so I wanted to be absolutely sure. Vanamonde (talk) 02:52, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I still read the RfC consensus as remove the translations section. Cunard (talk) 02:56, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  I do think that any Good Article on a book ought to describe the translations. What is a book article about? - Context, Plot, Contents and Illustrations, Publication and Translations, Reviews and Reception, I'd say. It's a core part of what a book is, so I don't really know where you guys are coming from. It might be brief or it might need to be long - we do not complain if Mozart wrote a lot of notes in a lot of works, we just write a lot of articles about them. That a book merited many translations is of direct interest, and a direct measure of its notability around the world. That a book can appeal in, say, China and the Czech R. as well as Iceland and Indonesia gives a direct measure of its appeal. Of course it's relevant. If people object to lists, then we must try to work it in some other way, but I think a list is a sensible and direct way of formatting what is after all a naturally listlike structure. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:32, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

text: Thank you: I was about to do something similar. I think this might be the best solution to the issue. Vanamonde (talk) 06:52, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translations 

message: I plan on rewriting/expanding the article a fair bit soon. Since this will involve several book citations, I would much prefer to do this with WP:SFN formatting for the refs. WP:CITEVAR exists, though, so if anybody at all has a preference for the current format, please let me know, and I will modify my activities accordingly. Vanamonde (talk) 18:27, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changing Citation format 

message: I have fixed the redirect for Gebbeth to link to Earthsea (universe)#Gebbeth, which is where the former text ended up after being merged. — Gorthian (talk) 05:17, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gebbeth 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "The notion that names can exert power is also present in Hayao Miyazaki's 2001 film Spirited Away; critics have suggested that that idea originated with Le Guin's Earthsea series."  This idea occurs in the Old Testament, among other places, so is certainly much older than Le Guin.
:The article does not say the concept originated here; the article says critics say it does. Which is accurate. Vanamonde (talk) 10:08, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The concept is much older 

message: Hi, if a publisher has supplied an image to help illustrate the Wikipedia article on the Wizard of Earthsea on French Wikipedia can it be hosted on French Wikipedia on a fair use basis? Publisher wants the image only to be used on that page only so cannot release openly. Seems a shame if the page cannot be illustrated. I'll leave a message on French Wiki too. Stinglehammer (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use cover image on French Wikipedia version of this page? 

message: By the looks of it, excellent article! I have agreed to have a look and nitpick.
* - For this statement in the lead, context is required regarding the literature timeline and "epic" should probably be wikilinked. , quick shout-out to you. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 21:50, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Adding that link is not a bad idea, and I have done so: but I'm quite baffled by the rest of your comment. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:19, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: My explanation was unfortunate. I wanted to say there could be many types of "critics" depending on thw time period in which they were made. Since it's on the lead, it seems quite vague and I would suggest citing it or using explanatory footnote. Haven't checked the full Body yet, so can't say much more about this. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 22:37, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead summarizes the body, where the various critical views are discussed in detail. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:20, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Individual review 

message: These 2 entries are for the same work:
* 
* 
E.g., the authors, urls, ISBNs are exactly the same. Would it be better to eliminate the 1995a & 1995b, and then adjust the inline sites to the page numbers, along with the notations to the 2 encyclopedia entries? – S. Rich (talk) 22:20, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an encyclopedia in which the entries can be written by any of dozens of people, so I think it makes sense to do it this way -- if we were to cite another article from it, written by someone other than Nicholls, it would be odd to have to change these two citations at that time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 22:50, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand, but the particular authors for the two sections are not listed. Nicholls and Clute are the editors for the entire encyclopedia.  – S. Rich (talk) 00:07, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The author of both sections is Peter Nicholls -- it's confusing because Nicholls is also one of the editors, but I think the citations are formatted correctly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 00:51, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate source listing 

message: Re-reverting an edit in the intro, because it doesn't make any sense.
Original pre my reversion: "The structure of the story is similar to that of a traditional epic, although critics have also described it as subverting this genre in many ways, such as by making the protagonist dark-skinned in contrast to more typical white-skinned."
I removed the last clause because being "white skinned" isn't a characteristic feature of the traditional epic (that makes no sense). My edit was reverted by user Mike Christie. I am re-reverting with this note given the nonsensical nature of the removed clause. Xris0 (talk) 13:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , if you look in the body of the article, you'll see that this is cited to three academic sources. The one with online access says "Ged is dark-skinned, and by making him so she set him 'outside the whole European heroic tradition, in which heroes are not only male but white'."  The inner quote is from Le Guin herself.  We can't get rid of material we personally disagree with; we have to go with what reliable sources -- in this case academic sources -- say. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 14:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The critics are obviously referring to Western/European epics, in which heroes have traditionally been white. Le Guin's departure from that is mentioned in a very large percentage of critical material about Earthsea, and I don't see how calling it "nonsensical" is helpful. If there's any ambiguity here with respect to which epics are being referred to, I'm happy to attempt wordsmithing, though I will need a little while to consult my sources (I wrote this some time ago). Vanamonde (Talk) 16:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Why criticize LeGuin's creative choice on Earthsea with prejudices from our Earth?  The word "subvert" definitely sounds critical.  Perhaps describe it as a "departure? 2600:1700:3D40:BEC0:2CA2:5612:FA93:7117 (talk) 17:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't personally see "subverts" as negative; when used in literary criticism I think it tends to be a positive connotation, because it's usually used in the context of subverting stereotypes or tropes. Regardless, though, I think you'll find that the sources that write about Le Guin use the term quite often, and that's ultimately what matters. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text:  Le Guin's use of a dark-skinned protagonist has been quite widely praised, and 'subverting racism' is certainly praise. The mention of skin colour in the article is both relevant and, as has been said above, necessary in the circumstances. We might hope that many editors and readers would also find it uplifting, given Le Guin's pioneering work in the Earthsea series. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Re subverting epic structure & race