Talk:United States and state terrorism/strawpolls

message: The discussion page for this page is Talk:United States and state terrorism/strawpolls/discussion. Sorry for the inconvenience. Tom Harrison Talk 18:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

message: #--Weak keep.--Zleitzen 02:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--State terrorism by the United States of America —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RaveenS (talk • contribs). 
#--State terrorism by the United States, so there's no room for every allegations or opinion out there.--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose (state suggested alternative)

message: ====Support====
# Seems notable--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The term ''American Terrorism''

message: # Seems notable--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: # I've never heard the term before this, and I don't know what it means. Jun-Dai 21:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#Keep, but rephrase. Addhoc 17:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 9/11 scholar for truth/''Manual 30-31b'' section

message: #Keep, but rephrase. Addhoc 17:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Non reliable group with a clear POV.--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--Iffy, too many different definitions but could be handy to keep--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of terrorism: FBI, UN and US Code definitions

message: #--Iffy, too many different definitions but could be handy to keep--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: ====Support====
#--Naturally --Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism of the term

message: #--Naturally --Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: ====Support====
#--Church committee reports, yes. But needs an expanded account of verifiable, notable claims of CIA involvement in terrorist attacks against Cuba. There isn't any point arguing this - these act have been clearly described as terrorism by the perpetrators - the claims exist - they've been made in notable forums (UN) by notable people (leading politicians and ministers) - and are supplemented by a significant amount of evidence revealed in declassified documents.--Zleitzen 02:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuba/Church committee

message: #--Church committee reports, yes. But needs an expanded account of verifiable, notable claims of CIA involvement in terrorist attacks against Cuba. There isn't any point arguing this - these act have been clearly described as terrorism by the perpetrators - the claims exist - they've been made in notable forums (UN) by notable people (leading politicians and ministers) - and are supplemented by a significant amount of evidence revealed in declassified documents.--Zleitzen 02:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: ====Support====
#--Keep. Addhoc 17:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cuba/Northwoods

message: #--Keep. Addhoc 17:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Never happened--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: # Keep Travb (talk) 13:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: ====Support====
#--Week keep of second part if there's a good source. Bagdad bombings are out--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Middle East

message: #--Week keep of second part if there's a good source. Bagdad bombings are out--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: ====Support====
#  Keep Addhoc 18:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Gladio

message: #  Keep Addhoc 18:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--No terrorism occured nor was it a US operation but rather NATO--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
# Strong Keep Travb (talk) 13:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nicaragua v. USA

message: # Strong Keep Travb (talk) 13:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--No terrorism occured--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--Keep. These were allegations made by a country in an important international forum. It was a NATO operation but US war planes were doing much of the bombing and the US was a principal decision maker and participant in launching the campaign. --NYCJosh 23:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Yugoslavia v. USA

message: #--Keep. These were allegations made by a country in an important international forum. It was a NATO operation but US war planes were doing much of the bombing and the US was a principal decision maker and participant in launching the campaign. --NYCJosh 23:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--No terrorism occured--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#-- I appreciate this article isn't about linguistics, however Chomsky has written books about politics as well. Addhoc 18:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chomsky

message: #-- I appreciate this article isn't about linguistics, however Chomsky has written books about politics as well. Addhoc 18:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Non reliable source on the subject, this isn't about linguistics--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--
====Oppose====
#--Not state terrorism, could be included in article about terrorism by US citizens--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: McVeigh

message: #--Not state terrorism, could be included in article about terrorism by US citizens--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--Keep. Explain that if part of war some would exclude on that basis. --NYCJosh 00:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Wounded Knee

message: #--Keep. Explain that if part of war some would exclude on that basis. --NYCJosh 00:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Can't see the charge of terrorism substantiated--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--Modify. These historic events are good illustrations of the general EXCEPTION that governments and others often urge for warfare. So we could tie in with (or make part of) the DEFINITION of terrorism section: acts most would no doubt consider to be terrorism (the deliberate targeting of civilians to achieve a political purpose), when done by a sovereign government as part of a war are thought by many to be excluded from that category. --NYCJosh 23:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vietnam

message: #--Modify. These historic events are good illustrations of the general EXCEPTION that governments and others often urge for warfare. So we could tie in with (or make part of) the DEFINITION of terrorism section: acts most would no doubt consider to be terrorism (the deliberate targeting of civilians to achieve a political purpose), when done by a sovereign government as part of a war are thought by many to be excluded from that category. --NYCJosh 23:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--War time military operation, not terrorism--Kalsermar 18:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--
====Oppose====
#--Easy, we don't exonorate Saddam's record because he says he didn't do anything wrong--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Ba'ath Party

message: #--Easy, we don't exonorate Saddam's record because he says he didn't do anything wrong--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
# Keep. Travb (talk) 13:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Honduras

message: # Keep. Travb (talk) 13:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Not terrorism and not by the US--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
# Weak Keep Travb (talk) 13:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Iran v. USA

message: # Weak Keep Travb (talk) 13:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Military incident during warlike scenario--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: There is already a lot of detail on these articles(SOA and SOA Watch), but I propose a brief mention here under the "Latin America" section.
====Support====
# Include - Self-Described Seabhcán 17:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, the exact percentage, but I do know you said "20" and failed to provide a source for this. You also acknowledge here that the US trains people in the SOA,  "How many of the 60,000 graduates are we talking about here? 10% or so?" but yet you write above: "can I see proof that his actions in his country were funded by the US?"   Is training someone to be a terrorist considered evidence enough for you User:Zer0faults? We have already discussed the sections of this manual at length, and to my knowledge, you have never addressed the sections which encourage terrorism. Again, you demand proof of what we write, but provide no proof for your statments.  You have not provided a source since you started editing this wikipage. Travb (talk) 03:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The wikipedia page on SOA lists less then 20 notable graduates. Sorry i thought you actually read the page since its wikilinked above. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 08:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to exapnd the real number is about just under 100, however the real number of graduates is about 80,000 not 60,000  What is that, less then 1% i think. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 08:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[SOA]] and [[SOA Watch]]

message: # Include - Self-Described Seabhcán 17:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know, the exact percentage, but I do know you said "20" and failed to provide a source for this. You also acknowledge here that the US trains people in the SOA,  "How many of the 60,000 graduates are we talking about here? 10% or so?" but yet you write above: "can I see proof that his actions in his country were funded by the US?"   Is training someone to be a terrorist considered evidence enough for you User:Zer0faults? We have already discussed the sections of this manual at length, and to my knowledge, you have never addressed the sections which encourage terrorism. Again, you demand proof of what we write, but provide no proof for your statments.  You have not provided a source since you started editing this wikipage. Travb (talk) 03:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The wikipedia page on SOA lists less then 20 notable graduates. Sorry i thought you actually read the page since its wikilinked above. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 08:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to exapnd the real number is about just under 100, however the real number of graduates is about 80,000 not 60,000  What is that, less then 1% i think. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 08:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: Note: The threaded discussion has been moved to the talk page: Talk:Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_United_States_of_America/strawpolls#Oppose
  
#-SOA are not US soldiers or government officials or people acting on behalf of the US or employed by the US etc. Even SOA watching specifically lists them as people of their respective countries, not US graduates. Also no US graduates are even listed.  --zero faults |sockpuppets| 17:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: The CIA training and funding of the Afghan Mujahideen, including OBL, is an accepted and admitted part of US history. The 9/11 blowback of this policy should also be mentioned.
====Support====
#-Include. Self-Described Seabhcán 15:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 1980's support for [[Mujahideen]]

message: #-Include. Self-Described Seabhcán 15:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #As per NYJosh this obviously not a case of State Terrorism. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 21:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--National armies engaged in wartime can commit warcrimes but not terrorism--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exclude military operations by national armies (even if considered war crimes by certain units)

message: #--National armies engaged in wartime can commit warcrimes but not terrorism--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Military forces can committ terrorism. The Allied air campaigns against German cities in WW@ is an example. Killing civialins for political purposes. The air campaigns in South Vietnam, Operation Mongoose was a terrorist campaign(Mai Lai massacre a small part of it). User:Green01 3:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--In general I oppose including them--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exclude assasinations

message: #--In general I oppose including them--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Not always, especially where there are civilian casualties. Addhoc 18:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: ====Support====
#--Of course this is out as nothing happened. A foiled attack is one thing a plan is nothing more than that.--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Exclude plans and other non-implemented material

message: #--Of course this is out as nothing happened. A foiled attack is one thing a plan is nothing more than that.--Kalsermar 02:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #--Case by case basis. Addhoc 18:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose