Talk:Daylight saving time/Archive 2

message: Ecuador, marked as never applied DST, did observed DST in the mid 90's, believed in 95.
:First, do you have a citation for this info about Ecuador? It disagrees with today's zoneinfo database. Second, comments about the daylight saving world map probably belong better in the map's talk page. Eubulides 00:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's hard to find out there, but Sixto Durán Ballén installed DST in `92.  It's not clear how long it lasted.  "Se recordará el fracaso de la llamada “hora Sixto” implantada en 1992 para supuestamente ahorrar energía eléctrica"  "Remember the failure of the so-called 'Sixto time' implemented in 1992 to supposedly save electric energy" rone 22:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, thanks, I replied on the map's talk page. At this point I assume there's no objection to archiving this discussion item? We can continue the discussion on the other page as needed.  Eubulides 06:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The world map is incorrect

message: The map shows that Indiana never observed DST.  That's not true - they just switched.
:Fixed Eubulides 09:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Map Error - Indiana

message: The map shows Argentina as a country that never used DST. That is wrong. It was used for several years, then discontinued, then put again in place. It's not being used now but there are some talks about going back to it.
:The problem is fixed now.  Eubulides 09:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Argentina: Mistake 

message: Dominican Republic has observed DST during the 1970s, and also attempted to observe DST during 2000. DST lasted 1 month in D.R., and was then set back to normal time due to public uproar. -- Zavreio 05:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is fixed now.  Eubulides 09:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map Mistake - Dominican Republic 

message: This line was added to the section about the current DST legislation in the Western Australian parliament: "Many Western Australians against DST have cried out against the trial, as there have been three referendums to date". Does this violate NPOV? I've added another sentence with the other side to the argument to try and balance it. -Jasonb 14:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I do support it. I don't see how my opinion changes anything I had to say though. -Jasonb 11:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 05:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Western Australia 

message: Apologies if this comment is improper, but I found the table near the middle of the "United States" section to be confusing.
It's clear to me (although unstated) that the table elements are offsets to GMT.
But what are the parenthetical numbers?
If they are hh:mm, why are they all ending in "52"?
Some indication of what these numbers represent would be helpful.
Oybobby 16:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: According to Template:utc, which is called by Template:US time 2006, they are the current local time in 24-hour format for the listed US time zones, which I have added to the template. — Joe Kress 17:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: This comment seems obsolete now. The table is no longer present (I assume it's been moved).  Eubulides 07:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  USA (untitled) Table of Time Zones confusing (to me, anyhow) 

message: The graphic courtesy of some DOD employee of the clock hands being turned back has the caption advising that the time change occurs at 2am on October 28th.  Unfortunately, the graphic was created in 2005 when that was true, but this year it is 2am on October 29th!
And, of course, that was never the case in many parts of the world! Wake 03:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Am I the only one that noticed? 

message: the criticism regarding morning time being switched for evening time makes little sense to me.
During summer/spring in England it is light well before 6 am, so actually it makes no difference to such early-risers that morning light is switched for evening.
Even with DST it is light well before normal rising hours. The sun has already started rising at almost 4:30 am in the height of summer
:A comment has been added to this effect.  It says, "An energy argument for observing DST in summer rather than winter is that most people wake up after the summer sun rises regardless of whether DST is in effect, so DST during summer has less need for morning electrical lighting."  Eubulides 09:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism

message: The following was deleted for being "irrelevant, polemic meant to instigate hatred":In territories controlled by the Palestinian National Authority, DST ends later, which can lead to some confusion. On September 5, 1999, terrorists were transporting a bomb that they mistakenly thought was set to go off at 5:30 PM Israel Standard Time; it was actually set for 5:30 PM Palestinian Daylight Time, which was an hour ahead. As a result, the bomb went off while the bomb was still being transported, killing the terrorists (and earning them a Darwin Award).Living on Zionist Time — 1999 Darwin Awards
Please discuss before deleting this again. It well illustrates the some of the problems critics have with DST.
If necessary, I can edit it to make it less Hate-instigating. A few examples:
#In territories controlled by the loving Palestinian National Peace-out, DST ends later, which can lead to some confusion. On September 5, 1999, peace activists were lovingly transporting a bomb that they mistakenly thought was set to go off at 5:30 PM Israel Standard Time; it was actually set for 5:30 PM Palestinian Daylight Time, which was an hour ahead. As a result, the bomb went off while the bomb was still being transported, killing the kind, loving activists, and depriving them of the opportunity to show their love to the hateful Israelis. It also earned them a posthumous Noble Pieces Prize.
#In territories controlled by the Palestinian Floral Authority, DST ends later, which can lead to some confusion. On September 5, 1999, Palestinian peace workers were lovingly transporting a bouquet that they mistakenly thought was set to go off at 5:30 PM Israel Standard Time; it was actually set for 5:30 PM Palestinian Daylight Time, which was an hour ahead. As a result, the bouquet went off while the bouquet was still being transported, covering the kind, loving peace workers with pollen (and earning them a Allergen Award).
#In territories controlled by the Hebrew National Authority, DST ends earlier, which can lead to some confusion. On September 5, 1999, Hebrew terrorists were transporting a bomb to Palestine that they mistakenly thought was set to go off at 5:30 PM Palestinian Daylight Time; it was actually set for 5:30 PM Israel Standard Time, which was an hour behind. As a result, the bomb went off an hour later, killing more people than they had anticipated (and earning them a Kosher Award).
--BillCJ 06:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This item is no longer relevant to the page, as round-the-world stuff has been split off. Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Hateful Polemic

message: As far as I know DST was in practice in India briefly during the World War II and during China and Pakistan wars as well.
:The map now reflects this.  Eubulides 00:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DST in India 

message: I clicked "edit the page" and saw that the article is 56 KB long. That is probably due to the long list of countries there. So I was wondering if it needs a tab like this one? Does it sound alright? --Gh87 04:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is now about 30 kB so I guess the split has fixed things.  Eubulides 00:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does this article need {[[Template:split-apart|split-apart]]} 

message: See the article at http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/e.html for information about the April date change in the mid-80's and the 15-month exercise in the 70's so that the statement about since 1966 it's been these dates isn't correct.
:This stuff has now been moved to a different article, so the comment is obsolete.  Eubulides 00:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I noticed that the history portion for the us is not complete 

message: I noticed that the article is saying that, in Brazil, DST is called Hora do Verão. That's not true, and should be corrected. In Brazil, DST is called horário de verão (Summer Time).
:This stuff has been moved to a different page, I guess, so the comment is no longer relevant. Eubulides 00:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  DST in Brazil 

message: The map shows Libya as never having observed DST, but in fact, it did, from 1981 to 1990, and then again from 1996 to 1997 (don't ask, it is an odd country). Who owns the map? Can they fix it?
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/timezone.html?n=252&syear=1980
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/timezone.html?n=252&syear=1990
:It's fixed now.  Eubulides 09:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map mistake: Libya 

message: I have suggested splitting the section containing the practice of daylight saving time around the world into its article. The section is taking up far too much space in this article, and I feel the article should really just concentrate on the idea of daylight-saving time itself. -- tariqabjotu 21:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: I will proceed with splitting the article in Dec., if no objections have been put forth be that time. It's just WAY too long. Thanks. - BillCJ 16:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a option too. However, not all countries regions have articles, so I think there still should be one location with information on all the countries. Correlating this information with the existing pages should be done, but it would be quite extensive. Perhaps the country pages could be combined by continent/regionwith links to the region pages here, but again that's quite a job. For now, I think the simplest thing to do would be to split off this article now, while discussing a future solution too. - BillCJ 17:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, okay, I'm happy with that. -Jasonb 17:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Someone created the article anyway, apparently by just cut-and-pasting the whole section in, with no attempt at formatting it for its own article. When we do get a consensus here (or at least no opposition) by the end of the week, I'll make a fresh copy with all the recent edits, and format it properly. - BillCJ 15:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Split completed. I kept the history portion from the US here, as it is long. Will check later to see if there is an article on DST in the US, and merge it there. - BillCJ 06:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Splitting Location Section 

message: Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the two as highly related, so maybe we could nix that idea? I just don't know how to delete it personally.
Onceuponastar 12:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Apparently,it was not a serious suggestion, but rather some form of vandalism. Also, the 4 notices he posted were removed from the article over 24 hours ago. Is it posted somewhere else? - BillCJ 14:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who suggested it be merged with Harassment? 

message: "would have experienced the latest sunrises of the year during the month of November,"
I find that the verb "to experience" is misused a lot, bad style, and often literally incorrect. In the quoted case, there *is* a late sunrise, whether there is anyone present and awake to "experience" it or not.
:Remember to sign your posts! Actually, it says "the entire United States . . . would have experienced". One can argue about whether land or a country can "experience" something, but this is really a minor quibble in my opinion. That being said, Wikipedia is all about improvement. If you can reword it into something better, then by all means do so. But if a rewrite will make it too wordy or unclear, then it's probably best to leave it alone. - BillCJ 16:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fixed now.  Eubulides 09:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Style: the word "experience" 

message: I'm sure I heard on University Challenge or Mastermind recently that an early experiment into daylight saving time was carried out by an English king who set all of the clocks at Sandringham Palace half an hour later than those elsewhere, Sandringham being where he stayed in the summer. I have not found reference to this elsewhere yet, though. 195.11.55.198 16:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: See Sandringham Time. — Joe Kress 00:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History: UK - Sandringham Palace 

message: I'm sorry, but one thing the article is grossly negligent in omitting is WHEN Daylight Saving Time actually occurs in various regions.  That is why I came here.  The history and all of that is good information and fitting of Wikipedia, but let us not forget the simple things.  When DST occurs should come right after the general definition, before the history, computer stuff, et cetera. 4.88.49.159 14:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Try section 2 under the Table of Contents (Daylight saving time#Observation of DST), where the basic details are given. It comes right after a single paragraph on origins, where it has been since 05:48, August 5, 2005. So I'm not sure what the problem is here. All the varying times and dates for the various countries were previously listed by continent and country under what is now the Daylight saving time around the world article. - BillCJ 17:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What about WHEN it occurs?

message: From http://www.timetemperature.com/tzca/daylight_saving_time_canada.shtml
NEW! In 2007 Daylight Saving Time will begin three weeks earlier on the second Sunday in March and end on the first Sunday in November. Currently Daylight Saving Time starts on the first Sunday in April and ends on the last Sunday in October. This pattern will be followed by all provinces which observe daylight saving time and each province is amending their legislation to reflect this change.
This change in Daylight Saving Time will keep Canada's Daylight Saving Time pattern consistent with the United States which enacted into law a broad energy bill that will extend Daylight Saving Time in the same manner.
jlam 13:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This comment now seems more appropriate for Daylight_saving_time_around_the_world. Eubulides 07:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canada 2007 

message: Removed
:Since DST exchanges morning daylight for evening daylight, late sunrises occur when DST is in effect during the parts of the year when days are shorter, and darkness in the morning can be undesirable for early risers like many schoolchildren and workers.
This is wrong.
:DST favours sunlight earlier in the morning during winter months when days are shorter and it also gets darker sooner (as the sun set is ultimately earlier as well). Dainamo 19:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: opposite effect

message: I have just made an edit (as anonymous by mistake, sorry) of the article. It listed Israel as a thorny example of somewhere that didn't have fixed DST rules, therefor causing trouble for computer systems. I moved that into the "Windows" section, and elaborated somewhat (as that's the only platform truly affected by non-fixed DST start/end dates on one hand, and as Israel is an excellent, if extreme, example why such a policy is problematic). The problem is that the only outside source I could find explaining the issue was... my own company's web site, lingnu.com. The page is considered fairly authoritative (i.e. it is well linked to), but as I wrote it, one may claim I'm ill positioned to use it as a source. I would have provided the upstream sources, except:
# None of them list the information as concisely as that one, and
# The page was written in 2005. I no longer remember where the sources were
I believe the result is within reason, but I wanted to float the issue so that no one blames me for plugging my company (inappropriately). Shachar 06:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible conflict of interest in editing (Israeli DST)

message: Page says : "The idea of DST was first put into practice by the German government ...".
That is not so.
The German government was the first national government to introduce Summer Time.
Previously, it was put into practice by Shackleton in Spring 1915 - September 26th, if I remember correctly.
Various Canadian municipalities seem to have implemented Summer Time in about 1907-16.
82.163.24.100 11:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The wording is fixed now.  Eubulides 09:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Any objection to removing this obsolete discussion item? Eubulides 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin 

message: In (ca) 1990, I was traveling via railroad in the U.S.A. when the change over from DST to standard time took place.  The train stopped in the desert for an hour, in order to keep on schedule. We were told that all trains in the time zone had stopped.  It might be interesting to find out what happens in the spring, and how trains traveling into/outof/through Arizona or other areas not making the changes to/from DST are affected. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.53.197.12 (talk) 02:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The page now says "Disruption to … travel … is not uncommon when clocks or rules change." Eubulides 08:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Traditionally, it was too much hassle to change the schedule (it was a printed document), so they just slowed down the trains or sped them up and tried to make the schedule as best they could. Airline schedules are handled similarly, I expect. Anyway, it's not clear to me that the details are worth discussing in the main page. Eubulides 17:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Railroads, U.S.A. 

message: Windows Vista supports at most two DST start and stop rules per time zone setting. For example, in Brazil where DST rules commonly change every year, a Vista setting would support the current and previous year's time stamps, while mishandling some older time stamps.
This section appears to be unsubstantiated guesswork. Sources should be cited.
Only one set of "start and stop rules" is in use at any given time but the system can support a large range of years both in the past and into the future. See the data for "Israel Standard Time" in Vista as an example (it has rules from 2004 to 2023, inclusive).
Vista shipped with 2006 and 2007 entries for Brasilia, but it can support a larger range of historic data as required. Unfortunately the Brazilian government does not appear to give much warning about upcoming DST changes.
213.199.145.11 17:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Citation added. According Microsoft, Vista may have a large catalog of rule sets, but it can use at most two set of rules at any given time, and pre-Vista Windows can use at most one rule set. Eubulides 21:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Windows 

message: The "External links" section in the  current version of this page contains a pointer to an advertisement for a DST update tool solving a particular problem with Microsoft Windows and daylight saving time. This seems out of place for a Wikipedia web page. The Wikipedia guideline on external links says "Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam." I have removed the external link three times in the past six days but the promoter of that  product keeps reinserting the link. I have attempted to contact him via his talk page but have gotten no response other than temporary vandalization of my user page. Eubulides 02:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have warned the user on his talk page about spam links and vandalizing userpages. I will keep this page watchlisted.  -- Pastordavid 18:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to advertisement should be removed 

message: says "A report last year by the Energy Department projected savings in electricity at four-tenths of a percent each day of extended daylight savings time.... The American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy, a nonprofit group, estimates that the cumulative benefit through 2020 of longer daylight saving time would be a saving of $4.4 billion and 10.8 million metric tons less carbon spewed into the air."  I looked for these reports in all the obvious places (e.g., aceee.org, doe.gov) but could not find them.  Does anyone know where they are?  The "Rationale" section is a bit weak right now and could use some strong citations.  Eubulides 05:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  2007-03-05 NYT story cites mysterious ACEEE, 2006 Energy Dept. studies