Talk:Varela Project

message: Hello and thank you for this article. Please keep in mind the United Nations has overwhelmingly voted 130 nations and more to 2 or 3 against the illegal blockade of Cuba by the United States. It has done so several times. The International Community does not support such acts of destabilization of sovereign nations by foreign interests.
I find it ironic at best that the same persons who work against Cuba, such as this "project" and its sponsors, find the face to continue doing so in light of the Internationnal Community's resolutions at the United Nations. The illegal blockade of Cuba is inhumane and causes countless deaths and injuries to Cubans. The illegal blockade of Cuba is also a political tool of imperialism and has obviously little if anything to do with human rights.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.104.28.187 (talk) 11:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: From Family name#Spain and Hispanic areas: "nowadays in Spain and in some countries of Hispanic culture (former Spanish colonies, e.g. México, Colombia, Peru, Venezuela), most people have two surnames, although in some situations only the first is used." --Boivie 22:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hello

message: I broke the article into three parts, a neutral opening paragraph, the Cuban POV and the external (largely US State Department) POV.  I think this is a good idea as it makes it easier for the reader of the article to distinguish what is POV and what is neutral.  BruceHallman 19:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV presentation 

message: The POV tag was recently added, with 'see talk' but no associated 'talk' was posted.  BruceHallman 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV tag

message: The State Department press release identifies 75 political prisoners.  Are the names of these people made public anywhere? BruceHallman 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If the State Department account of 75 political prisoners is a "verifiable account", then could you please provide a list of the names of these seventy-five people per WP:V.  BruceHallman 21:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Which is correct, the Varela Project mentions both 25 political prisoners and 75 political prisioners?  BruceHallman 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, the opening section says "... convicted of "acts against the independence or the territorial integrity of the State." but later in the article it is mentioned " on a variety of charges"", which is correct?  BruceHallman 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This question still needs to be addressed.  BruceHallman 23:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: That list has 81 people, and says nothing of them being Varela Project prisioners.  Is it 81, 77, 75 or 25?  And which people exactly are Varela Project prisoners?  BruceHallman 23:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 75 political prisoners

message: The article has been sanitized -- verifiable accounts of what actually happened have been POV-forked into a subsection, and given equal weight with demonstrably false Cuban propaganda.  Reports from human rights organizations such as IAHCR have been falsely characterized as coming from the US government.  The State Department report is neutral, and not a single fact from it is disputed, and should be restored to the main text. -- FRCP11 20:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The first POV forking occured here. BruceHallman 21:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: With due respect, the U.S. State Deparment is very much partisan and POV and should not be represented otherwise. BruceHallman 20:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only partisan here is you, Bruce.  What you're doing is positively evil.  -- FRCP11 20:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am editing in good faith, and calling me evil is hardly constructive.  Regardless, if we stick to WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR we should be able to collaborate on the editing of this article.  BruceHallman 21:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I take it that per your editorial judgement that the U.S. State Department is not partisan.  How does this comport with the US policy that "...U.S. can help hasten and ease a democratic transition in Cuba"?    It seems that having an official policy to 'hasten' a 'transition' is patently partisan.  BruceHallman 21:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cuba is undemocratic, yes.  Do you dispute that?  (Of course you do, because you buy Cuban propaganda lock stock and barrel, never mind the murders they commit.  For shame.)  You have yet to identify a single inaccurate statement quoted from the State Department report. -- FRCP11 21:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Once upon a time I assumed good faith with you, Bruce, but you persist in bad-faith edits that propagate propaganda and sanitize the truth.  When I see you make a single edit that acknowledges that Cuba is lying about something, I'll believe that you're editing in good faith.  Hasn't happened yet.  -- FRCP11 21:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't answer your question without knowing which defintion of 'undemocratic' you are using.  Democracy (disambiguation)  There are many types of democracy.  BruceHallman 21:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I did not say that the U.S. State Department does not meet WP:V.  I am only saying that they base their opinions on one POV and are not neutral as required by WP:NPOV.  The burden of proof is on you to justify your POV dispute tag, and you have not done so yet.  BruceHallman 21:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't understand your point about 'bad-faith' and 'Cuba is lying', which involves a leap of logic.  Again, if we stick to WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR we should be able to collaborate, do you agree?  BruceHallman 21:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There are many types of democracy, and Cuba has none of them.  Bruce, you have yet to collaborate in good faith.  I've previously made the mistake of trying to do so with you, and it was a complete waste of my time.  The article is POV because you have taken neutral, factually-correct statements, and call any accurate representation of Cuba--including left-wing BBC reports--POV.  I'm not going to play the game of finding dozens of additional sources to verify the already verified and patently obvious, just so you can play the No true Scotsman fallacy and move the bar and argue that the additional sources also aren't NPOV.  You personify precisely what's wrong with Wikipedia--it rewards the persistent ideologue who has time to revert accurate articles into inaccurate ones.  -- FRCP11 21:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardon me, it appears quite obvious that there are more than one POV's about this article, and it also is quite obvious that your belief that your POV is the factually-correct one, and the other POV's are the inaccurate ones is not a neutral type of editing.  Please re-read Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth.  BruceHallman 21:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV tag 

message: The logic of the phrase 'rejected by the government' is bad.  Article #88(h) of the Cuban Constitution allows for legislative proposals backed by at least 10,000 citizens to be submitted directly to the National Assembly. The government, per Article #75(b) of the Constitution has every right to not accept any and all such proposals. BruceHallman 23:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  rejected by the govenrment. 

message: This article seems to focus on everything but what the Varela Project is; it focuses entirely on the controversy around the attempt to get signatures but never informs the reader what the proposal was for. For a NPOV, this might be a good start.
Windupcanary
:See the recent re-write which is a sincere attempt to provide 'content', meeting WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR.  BruceHallman 17:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lacking Content 

message: I am concerned by the latest edit summary provided by YINever, accompanied by a straight revert. Would that user please address issues on this talk page before future action.--Zleitzen 23:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am referring to the summary revert of User:PatCheng, who likes to follow my edits to every article and does not participate in any real discussion or compromise.  Even the opposing editor, Bruce Hallman, did not appear to take issue with my reorganization of the article and was working within it, and in fact was forced to make subsequent edits after that user's summary revert.  YINever 23:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: What the hell are you talking about?  Look through the revert history.  I reorganized the article, Bruce Hallman made some changes, PatCheng reverted to the version before mine, Bruce Hallman had to make changes again.  I'm not going to go on about this at length.  YINever 00:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You removed a number of additional changes to the article without discussion, regardless of / and unrelated to your dispute with Pat Cheng. That is the issue here.--Zleitzen 00:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have issues with those changes, please state them.  YINever 00:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Please be specific.  If you wish to dispute my edits, I am not going to find what is wrong with my changes for you.  YINever 01:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This specifically enumerates changes which would be effected by the iniative and thus informs the reader. YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I changed it to "strong", as I believe that "broad-based" can be a tendentious claim and "strong" support from two bodies, one concrete (US government), one amorphous (C-A community) is clear.  YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: This statement implies that the repression of the movement is due to the pretext that the government has given.  Rather than reword it, I allowed the article to explain the issue in more detail below.  YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: All of the above are meant to provide a much more cogent flow for the article.  There is no need to separate out, or make POV forks for, very small sections and statements; nor should there be an overreliance on lengthy quotes.  YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I changed it to the web site name and provided the exact same description!  What is the problem?  YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

text: To clarify, I accept Bruce Hallman's addition to my earlier version (this is YINever).  --TJive 02:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: YINever Revert

message: Where is the text of the Varela Project initiative that people signed? Where is the text of Cuban government initiative that people signed? Int21h (talk) 05:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Initiative text 

message: BEFORE HATE: Apologies on removing the page; I was not aware this discussion function existed
This page is biased and uses sources that are not credible.
These sources are not credible because either:
(a) They are from a source that has a vested interest in seeing socialism fall, or
(b) They have information that can not be backed up. For example, the BBC news report states that the Cuban people felt pressured into voting for the amendment to the constitution. However, there is no verifiable source to back this up.
I recommend rewriting this article with a mix of credible sources, with some that respect the decision and others that condemn it.
Sincerely,
Marcus Khaos  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.129.35 (talk) 17:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: BBC News and others are considered reliable sources by Wikipedia policy, and don't need to give additional footnotes. Can you give examples of the sources you'd like to see included? Thanks for your contribution, -- Khazar2 (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias 

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thread_title:  External links modified