Talk:Paris/Archive 5

message: I've already outlined the changes and re-insertions above, yet again, Hardouin, you insist on re-imposing your pre-prepared writ. There were absolutely no factual errors in anything you changed, and to declare this is in your edit tag is... go figure. 'Improving style' is not cutting and pasting old disproved text. Enough already? THEPROMENADER 00:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You know, I don't really like the reversed page-appropriation insinuations either. I don't care who writes as long as its truth the majority can understand. Re-inserting choppy edits using terms un-echoed in other references is no way to go about this. We will not go in circles. This is silly - Paris should be a featured article. Once the facts are straight and other people's edits are respected, perhaps everyone will feel comfortable going about this. But not, Hardouin, until your 'backtracking' madness is over. THEPROMENADER 00:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Your insulting language ("madness", I'm quoting) can only do your arguments a disservice. Not content with reverting 95% of what I write, which I have grown accustomed to, you now also revert any user who disagree with you (such as user Metropolitan whose edits you reverted a few days ago). Over the last months, most of your edits have been full of botched numbers (e.g. writing 215 instead of 213, just because you don't pay enough attention), mispelled names, in general very little attention to details. Whenever I try to correct your errors or improve on your edits, you acuse me of "revert" which is a tactic that you have used extensively. I see you are using this very same tactic again. You don't fool anyone anymore. Hardouin 00:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Personal attacks don't improve article quality. You really have to scratch to get anything 'on' me - and now you speak of Metropolitan, who you know full well I contacted personally on his Talk page. You do revert, period. I have been vehement towards you because only you protect your factual inacuraccies and opinions with wholesale reverts. No matter the 'error' claims you make: 'corrections' are not 'Reverts'. Period. THEPROMENADER 01:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me? You deleted the tourism industry figure, just because it doesn't fit in your vision of the world. You wrote that most population growth is happening in the grande couronne suburbs, which was true in the 1990s, but is not true anymore in the 2000s. POV, factual inaccuracies, that's ThePromenader. Hardouin 01:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fooishness beyond foolishness. And now you dig some more and waste even more time. The tourism phrase was debunked long before - of course tourism is only a tiny bit of the IDF wealth when Paris, attraction for tourists, is only a tiny bit of the IDF. Tourism is important to Paris - yet your phrase suggests it is not. You made me repeat myself yet again. Thanks for more of your baseless accusations. LOL - if POV is mine then at least it's referencable. I think you've done enough damage for one day. THEPROMENADER 01:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: If anybody has been inserting factual inaccuracies, it is Hardouin, who I note has still not provided any evidence to back up his claims as outlined in the table at . Green Giant 01:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you, Green Giant - apologies as well. I lost it for a minute there. THEPROMENADER 01:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: No worries Promenader. As to your question Hardouin, I reverted because the version you prefer still tries to sell the point of view that Paris' boundaries have not changed much since 1860, despite this point already having been made in an earlier section. Green Giant 01:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Green Giant, the boundaries of the city of Paris have not changed since 1860 (except for the annexation of the Bois de Vincennes and Bois de Boulogne parks in 1929). Just check history books. Hardouin 02:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Personal jabs aside, why didn't you just say "tourism is not as important to the city of Paris as some would think"? This is an interesting and correct thing to say if it is backed with references. Stating that tourism is a small part of the IDF's economy is so obvious (sheer size, population differences, etc) that it is not even worthy of mention - not to mention yawningly bland. This is why I removed it and will so again if I see it again in its former state. I never said tourism was important anywhere in the article - so stop putting words in my mouth. THEPROMENADER 08:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Wait a second Hardouin - you've even got me arguing with myself. I said tourism is important for the city of Paris - and to anyone living here, it is obvious it is - yet you say that it is not important to the IDF. Yet the INSEE document you (and Aquarelle) cite begins with the phrase: (ahem)  "Tourism represents an essential activity for the Île-de-France region" . Odd discrepency. THEPROMENADER 19:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I know the boundaries have not changed much since 1860, but there is no point in repeatedly asserting this point. The matter is dealt with by the section on the area of Paris. By the way have you found any evidence to support your claims outlined in the table above? Green Giant 02:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: What's more, your are reverting to unreferenced phrases that were removed 'because they could be found in no reference' - and what's even more, you refuse to change the existing references links below - you (rather arrogantly, it would seem) left your AU 2005 prediction linked to the AU '99 reference as if it was real. Speaking of (for the third time), where is the reference for the 2005 AU estimation? None exists on the INSEE website. The same for your "double the growth" claim - in fact, INSEE statistics show a very small overall rate of growth. I made an effort to remain as positive as I could in my edit though, as you seem to refuse to see. THEPROMENADER 08:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: http://www.insee.fr/fr/insee_regions/idf/rfc/docs/alapage234.pdf          --Aquarelle 15:05, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Aquarelle, as may be obvious to you from reading the above, ThePromenader believes that tourism is a major component of the Paris economy. I have provided figures above, and they show that tourism is employing only a small proportion of people either in Ile de France or in the city of Paris proper. Yet ThePromenader sticks to his cliche image of a tourist Paris, and keeps deleting the real tourism figure from the economy section. That's what I call POV. I am restoring the sentence. It's rather revealing to note that the "righteous" Promenader, who always pretends to act only out of a quest for truth, keeps deleting referenced figures just because they don't fit with his distorted vision of reality. Hardouin 15:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Anyone who would say that tourism is not important to Paris is clearly off their rocker - even the INSEE article you yourself cite states in its opening line that it is important! That I say the same is distorted and POV ? You think yourself better than the entire official statistics institute? Perhaps in face of total ignorance. Get real please. THEPROMENADER 18:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You extract one sentence out of a four pages study, totally out of its context. How serious and scientific is that! The figures published in the study are hard fact, they show that tourism employs less people in Paris than business services, state administration, health services, education, retail and wholesale trade, and even manufacturing. To pretend that tourism is a major component of the Paris economy as you do is pure fallacy. The Paris economy cannot be summed up with Eiffel Tower and Moulin Rouge. I'm sorry if it doesn't fit with you vision of Paris, but it's just fact. Hardouin 18:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The whole paper is on the theme of how important tourism is to the IDF and Paris. It is YOU who are extracting statistics used to support this theme and argument - in ignoring the argument itself? How blind can you be? As blind as you want to, obviously. THEPROMENADER 18:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No, the INSEE study has no theme. Statisticians have no themes, they only present datas. It's you who believe tourism is very important to IDF. Hardouin 19:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm addressing this to no-one in particular. When the leading line of an INSEE documents says that tourism IS a crucial part of the IDF economy, one must give this more credit than a lone Wikipedian's POV. Harouin's numbers are based on the total GDP (material wealth from a whole line of production from raw materials through sales, not all the result of activity within the IDF) and the INSEE document stresses the employment factor - as this does directly concern the inhabitants of the Paris region. Again, although the numbers cited are correct, their use and representation isn't. THEPROMENADER 16:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, the numbers I have writen above are not GDP numbers, they are employement numbers. You don't even pay attention to what I write, and then criticize it anyway. Typical of you! Hardouin 16:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I did mix things up, didn't I? But let's not ingnore the obvious - you placing your POV in importance over an official statistical institution statement, and 7% employment - that's one person out of fourteen - working in tourism is NOT negligable! THEPROMENADER 17:13, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Period X of to-the-letter reverts. 

message: Is this? My watchlist tells me that Hardouin was the last person to message the new Wikipedian Aquarelle who I earlier a) welcomed and b) thanked for her correction here (only to make her feel welcome!). There I learn that I am some sort of nutcase trying to impose my POV, that I am comparable to some other person (haven't had time to read), and that I am 'opposed' to many things that I am in fact not 'opposed to' at all. 
I really don't see how working so that this article has a) verifiable content b) is comprehensive to a greater public and c) looks good qualifies as POV. If Hardouin published understandable verifiable fact there would be no need to edit anything - yet instead of answering pointed and direct requests for justificative references must instead resort to, sock puppetry aside, low behaviour such as this. 
THEPROMENADER 09:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  And WHAT, Pray tell... 

message: Sorry to have jumped on this but 82.35.96.59's edits skewed the meaning of the whole paragraph - the city 'growth' was the 'spread', not the population, and changing 'agglomeration' to 'city' when speaking of 'metro area' mixed the limits even further. The original wording was chunky so I took the occasion to fix it. But facts first. And thanks for keeping an eye on this, Atlant. THEPROMENADER 23:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro edit 

message: I do apologise for flipping my lid. Perhaps if one would care to read the reams of talk page discussions one would understand better my cumulating burst of anger - the above reverts were in total disregard for five months of research and reason by myself and those few others who cared or dared to get involved.
As for all the personal attacks, insults and attempts at denigration directed at myself: I'll let the archives speak for themselves. No matter the result and/or consequences of this spree, it will not happen again.
THEPROMENADER 23:15, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit-war Apology 

message: I vote that Promenader and Hardouin both be permanently barred from editing this article.  Your egotistical posing and bickering are a hinderance to other readers who have contributions to make.  A pox on both your houses.
: Just to inform you that on Wikipedia messages are usually signed and dated. If you don't have any account, well I don't know what you should do, probably post your IP (visible on the History page) as a signature. Thanks. Metropolitan 18:51, 25 february 2006 (CET).
:: The unnamed user does have a point.  What I can't stand are the frequent references to "the archives."  As if it's worth one's time to read all that rubbish!  What is the matter with recognizing that Paris actually has a quite large metropolitan area?  Whether it's an urban area, agglomeration, or conurbation; the nomenclature isn't all that important, just get over this ridiculous bickering.  --Aquarelle 21:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That's the thing with this article - disproving one oft-repeated misconception (and the reverts and foggy retaliations to this) took discussion 'to the depth of detail' - where it need not be I myself will agree. Yet I don't think the goal here is to publish what "sounds all right." I was the first to question, so if that qualifies me for the "pain in the ass" award, so be it. I am not alone anymore should one care to read anything in the page above - damn the archives. It all comes down to choosing between "Paris has a metropolitan area" and "Paris is its metropolitan area": there's a huge difference, and only one has references. Yet to verify this, one will have to do the research. Pain, inn'it? THEPROMENADER 22:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On the contrary Aquarelle, I agree with Promenader on this, the matter might seem trivial but it's important to be accurate, otherwise Wikipedia becomes a Wiki-charade. Nomenclature is vital - why would anyone bother to distinguish between things like New York County, New York City and New York State? No offence to anybody who admires him, but if we allow misconceptions to flourish then we end up with people like President George W. Bush thinking that Africa is a country and not realising that it's a continent of many countries. Green Giant 23:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please refrain from comparing such different situations, Green Giant.  We are, as they say, "hung up" over the nomenclature with three or four different terms that are incredibly similar, and in my opinion, none of us are qualified to interpret : reference sources, yes.  Like many users, I'm sick of the bickering and self-righteous positions of certain users.  Amoung many other things, we must stop taking defintions into our own hands and piously sticking to our own personally interpretations.  --Aquarelle 17:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with avoiding any 'personal interpretion' of ambiguous terms - and ambiguous terms themselves. I've been over-elaborate in my explanations, but all I've been asking for (as far as fact is concerned) is that this article mirror as close as possible existing references - in speaking of subjects acessible to the majority. Specialty splinter==sub-article - this 'Just Paris' page should be but a very generalist 'doorway root' article! My dumb for getting bogged in the details - when perhaps they shouldn't even be here at all. THEPROMENADER 21:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Please sign your name at the end of comments, and observe our civility policy. Thanks. El_C 12:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm all for civility, but content is not 2ndry and no one is barred from this article, including yourself. Meanwhile, I renew my plea for you to sign your comments. It makes it much easier to read as a thread with different editors' comments. El_C 12:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Look, the incivility was the fruit of a heated but very well-documented revert war - between two contributors. It's over. Please - there's no need to spread this mood to present discussion. THEPROMENADER 12:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough already 

message: Substituted at 21:52, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment