Talk:Camino de Santiago/Archive 1

message: who knows anything about the Saint-James-Way in England or Great-Britain? 139.18.15.218 14:25, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Hello

message: I don't question in principle the idea that some of the Camino/Way might have pre-Christian origins. However, I find the article's discussion of the Way's pre-Christian history terribly vague and poorly documented. There is much historically untenable kookiness about alleged "paganism" among New Age devotees of this and other religious sites, and I would like to ensure that this is not what we're looking at here. 
I have walked 1000 miles of the route. The Cathedral authorities at Compostela are quite willing to admit that the pious legend of James's burial at Compostela is exactly that: a pious legend. They also provide a great deal of interesting material on the archaeology of the site. I would like to see a similarly scientific approach in this article.
:I agree...the pre-christian section is pure hokum. Unless someone is prepared to reference this section it should be deleted. While there is plentiful evidence of Celtic-era pilgrimage to specific local shrines and healing springs, there is no evidence for long distance pilgrimage to "the end of the world" Benvenuto 23:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pre-Christian history

message: Occasionally, there are reports that some Dutch prisoner (and guard) have made the way as an alternative to prison, following an ancient custom.
--Error 04:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It is from Belgium, not Netherland.--Rocastelo 19:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  If you have more knowledge on this (and preferably have a reference) feel free to add it. It is a nice story Arnoutf 21:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I met a Dutch social worker and a kid from a boys home doing the walk last year, I don't think its an ancient custom, more like a modern character building exercise Benvenuto 00:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Netherlands

message: Did the Vía de la Plata go to Asturica Augusta from Italica or from Emerita Augusta? --Error 00:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Vía de la Plata

message: Currently the article contains a section on 'the way of st James in England'. I would suggest either to remove this section or to allow more 'modern' effort to recreate pilgrimspaths. Notably in the Netherlands the 'pilgrimspath' runs from Amsterdam to Maastricht (from where you can hike on to Le Puy). And the famous French FFRP has printed several guides with modern routes, (as far as I know) from Namur (Belgium) through Vezelay and Le Puy to the Navarra section of the path. 
So in short: I would suggest either expanding this section to encompass all modern routes. Or delete as the Enlish only entry seems biased and incomplete (action for now would be to add a level higher header 'Modern ways of St James' under which I would be perectly happy to only find the Enlish subheader for now. --Arnoutf 22:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As there was no objections for 2 weeks I have starting to shift the structure Arnoutf 21:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  suggest to remove/or add section on modern ways 

message: "Mind the pilgrim hat" in the graphic caption appears to be an attempt at humor, and may not be good tone.  I deleted it and someone brought it back.  Brainhell 22:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a way to express that Saint James is represented at the same time as a holy warrior and as a pilgrim. Maybe a picture as just a pilgrim would be better suited to this article. If you can express it better or have a a pilgrim picture, change it. --Error 02:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  See my suggestion as I put it up after replacement by cathedral view Arnoutf 09:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The language is better, but I'd prefer a picture of St James as a pilgrim. --Error 00:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is a nice illustration how different roles of this Saint mingle, but I agree that if we want to make that specific point it may be better to place that in a new legends section Arnoutf 17:44, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  Shifted it to history section; fits better there anyway Arnoutf 19:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mind the pilgrim hat

message: I think the first effort in cleaning up this article should be to change the second level headers under chapter 3 and the 3rd level header in Ch4, into normally bolded sections. That would clean up the table of contents. Furhtermore I agree that some text editing may improve the article Arnoutf 09:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No I don't think this is a good idea at all. They really should stay as headings beacuase that is their function; this is a principle of good mark-up. -- reinthal 08:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Then at least there should be much more text around each  them becuase the balance header+text, which is sometimes only one sentence in relation to table of contents is lost in the current set-up  Arnoutf 22:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

text:  For now I bolded them,  can always change back later as more text is added. By slight restructuring of introduction contents table shifted up Arnoutf 19:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Have moved all route descriptions to their own page. As this will obviously expand greatly in the future it is about time to do so. reinthal 02:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good idea, solves a lot! Arnoutf 18:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: Although I agree not everyone may not what Iberia is, I prefer that term over the summation Spain and Portugal (I agree we should link to Iberian Peninsula, to explain) After all part of the reason for an encyclopeida is to allow people to learn new things and phrasing everything in (baciscally incorrect) simple phrases is not a good thing. Therefore I would argue to change the Spain and Portugal heading back to Iberian Arnoutf 22:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iberia or spain and portugal 

message: This prologue by Luis Carandell mentions that the Priscillian theory is from Miguel de Unamuno and attributes to Martin Luther a discouragement of the pilgrimage because "it's not known whether what lies there is a dead dog or a dead horse".
With proper attribution it would be interesting.
--Error 00:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Carandell

message: of the material about the scallop. Some of it I understand, but some of it I am less sure about. I have to think about this some more--Filll 02:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not sure I understand the move

message: http://www.caminoguides.com/history.html --Filll 17:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Site with information

message: is Cluny important enough to include with its own note? There are litterally dozens and dozens of routes. This particular way deserves to be singled out?--Filll 13:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it is. But I am pretty sure this hitoric variant would be a valuable addition to the Way of St. James (route descriptions) article. Arnoutf 20:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh I realizethere was more to my comment than I put in writing (lot assumptions that need to be chekced...). As the importance of Cluny is that it connects Le Puy and Vezelay I more or less assumed it was on the current GR65 (which also links Le Puy and Vezelay). So in that aspect this specific variant may actually be an interesting one. But I agree that there are too many variant to even think of listing them all. Anyway even if that GR65 link holds it still should not be here but on the other page Arnoutf 21:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cluny

message: I have had several people arguing that the song Frere Jacques refers to all pilgrims on the way of St. James. Is this true do you think? Are there published claims that this is true?--Filll
: I never heard this rumour. The theory is treated but only in little detail compared to some other theories of origin (without source, the ref is a footnote) in the wiki article of the song Frère Jacques. My personal opinion: Probably not, in principle do not add to the mainstream article; although a remark under trivia or speculation (with a link to the Wiki article) could go... Arnoutf 21:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't look into that article enough to see you were one of the main editors. Well I never heard of the theory; and the songtext does not seem to reflect to the way of St JAcques at all (Personally i had the unfounded belief the song referred to the archfather Jacob (=Jacques in French); but I won't bother you with that theory. I would follow my course scientific writing in agreeing that a common belief by many people means: I am too lazy to look for a good reference. Just kick it out, if they want it back make it their responsibility to come up with a published (ie non-internet) reference for their claim. Good luck Arnoutf 12:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Well good luck. Wikipolicy is to use references (so that can easily be countered). Not scholarly... They are kidding. When reviewing papers submitted to scientific journals, I often demand from authors to put in more references (ie asking for refs). When guiding students I tell them there are 3 acceptable ways to come to a conclusion - (1) An undeniable logical reasoning; (2) A clear reference; (3) Own empirical data (not allowed for wiki as original research). Once again; good luck with it. Arnoutf 18:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Way of St. James and "Frere Jacques"

message: After some investigation on the web, I have found accounts that the Botafumeiro in the Santiago de Compostella Cathedral is made of "silver brass", or silver-plated brass. I have also seen some pictures where the Botafumeiro is clearly silver colored, and others were it is clearly golden colored (from reflections?). For example, a picture purported to be of the Botafumeiro in the library is found at: 
* http://www.galiciaguide.com/pics/botafumeiro.jpg
Also, I have found some accounts that the Botafumeiro weighs 58 Kg, and others that it weighs 80 Kg. Given that a physics study of the Botafumeiro quotes 80Kg, I think that this might be more accurate. 
I have also seen varying quotes of the height of the Botafumeiro, from 1.6 m to 2 meters or so. Another question: When is the Botafumeiro employed? Some accounts claim it is used only on special occasions, but some foreign language sites imply that it swings daily at 12 noon. What is the truth? Does anyone know the connection of the Road Rally of the same name and the restaurant of the same name to the censer? --Filll 18:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know (at least during the tourist season) the botafumeiro is used daily in the noon mass (but not in the others such as the pilgrims mass specially for the arriving pilgrims earlier in the morning - if you want to attend a mass this is the nicer as it is less busy and much more intimate). As far as I know it burns about 10kg of incense when swung, but I heard it weighes empty about 40kg (but that is only hearsay). It is brought in on poles by four priests so anything below 100 kg is possible (IMHO). Arnoutf 20:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Botafumeiro

message: When I look at the outside links, it just looks like a pile of crap to me. I have wondered about making another article which can just be a collection of assorted garbage links. How many photo albums in foreign languages do we need for example? I mean, really.--Filll 19:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I would say we do not need a single photo album in whatever language. Arnoutf 20:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

text: And of course this is also the case for painting made by an editor, they should not be listed. Arnoutf 10:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow that is pretty funny. I appreciate that many people want to somehow use Wikipedia to promote themselves or their small business etc, but this is not the way to do it. I am sure it is possible, but it has to be done in a far more clever and subtle way. Like if he puts a painting in the public domain and lets people use it on Wikipedia, and puts a caption under it with his name and maybe an article under his name with an outside link. Maybe. But then he would have to do a good job on the article about himself to avoid getting it deleted. This can be done, but a person has to be far more sophisticated than a dumb link.--Filll 14:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  He posted this reference everywhere where he found inspiration for his paintings, and got an indefinite block from wiki admins in return today. Pretty fast registering jan 3, being blocked indef jan 5th.... So, no this is not the way to do it ;-) Arnoutf 14:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Trash pile

message: I am not sure whether the translations of the way in all European languages should be mentioned. It is often a translation of Way of St Jamer along the lines of Camino (local name for James)  or ()Local name for James') Path or Way. This seems to me to be getting close to being a dictionary type of translation list. Not what wikipedia is meant for. I suggest we delete this list; perhaps with the exception of French; Spanish and Portugese as these translations are essential and most common. Arnoutf 12:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree. This article seems to be like flypaper for nonsense.--Filll 13:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps Galician and Basque names might be retained, since those are local names of that area. I am not sure what format to retain them in. Perhaps a table is appropriate.--Filll 14:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree about keeping the Galician and Basque, also because they don't look like any of the others. Arnoutf 15:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Names in other languages

message: I suggest to move the vast majority of the links to wikitravel . Wikipedia is not a travel guide so these guides should have no place here. Wikitravel however IS a travel guide; so that information is probably best suited there. Arnoutf 15:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a brilliant idea. We can provide a link for those interested, and clean up that mess. Good thinking !--Filll 15:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  How about using this template  I found on the London article ;-) Arnoutf 15:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent. I am going to clean out the books as well. This has to be done a couple of times a year at least I think or else the links and references just turn into a crap pile. For some reason, this subject just draws them out like flies.--Filll 15:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Guys you've done a great job on that, sorry if my MoS'ing got in the way and edit conflicted you.--Alf melmac 15:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

text: It appears that WikiTravel does not want our left over links either. So I still feel bad in a way, although they certainly are not encyclopedic. I am asking on Pilgrim Wiki if we can have a page of pilgrimmage-related links there. Maybe they will allow it. For time being, I have decided as a sort of project to save the deleted links to Talk:Way of St. James/Links to see how many we get. I tried to put most of the deleted links from the last couple of years there. It needs some pruning etc obviously. When you see them all listed, it is clear that there are quite a few. As much as I would like to accommodate everyone, if we did that the article would soon deteriorate into a nightmare. And this is an encyclopedia after all.--Filll 14:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

text: with over 20,000 people walking it every year it is bound to attract commercial interest and many hobbyists putting up their travellogue. Perhaps we should create a page List of crappy way of St. James links ;-) Arnoutf 08:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move of guides; travellogues etc

message: After having this page on my watch list for a couple of months, I realize that we have improved it quite a bit, but I am still struck that we need to improve its scholarly aspects. In particular, I am still quite interested in its preChristian origins. I will keep an eye out to see what I can find. --Filll 14:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: PreChristian route

message: These are the culled commercial etc links from the last little while: Talk:Way of St. James/Links--Filll 20:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Look at how big the crap pile has become 

message: Recently the photo of the scallop was swapped with that of the cathedral. I think that is not a good idea. This article is not about Santiago the Compostella, or even the Cathedral of that town; but about the pilgrimage towards that town. In other words it is about the road, not the goal. The scallop, not the cathedral, is the symbol of the road; hence it should be used, not the cathedral. Please do not change back again. Arnoutf 09:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lead photo

message: There is no article about the Holy Year or Jubilee of Compostela like this: Heiliges Compostelanisches Jahr --139.18.15.12 19:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are free to create it. That is the beauty of Wiki. Arnoutf 20:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Holy Year or Jubilee of Compostela

message: After discussion above we decided only to list the way in languages of areas the way (or an important version) crosses. Ie we included Spanish, Basque, Gallician, French (and for important variations) Portugese. As Wiki is not a dictionary we do not add the name in Dutch, Danish, Finnish, Russian, Chinese so ALSO NOT IN GERMAN. (I put this shouting as there is a tendency to add Jakobsweg (German)) for some obscure reason, while none of the other languages are ever used. Arnoutf 17:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: THE WAY IN OTHER LANGUAGES

message: The scallop shell depicted on the page is upside down!! Many people make this mistake, because of the Shell Oil company logo. However, the correct shell symbol for the Way of St. James is with the flat side on top and the round side on the bottom. In Spain a blus and yellow stylized version is sideways. Someone should place pictures of St. James waymarks here or pictures of stamps to clarify. Also, the text written here about the origins of the shell symbol seem to contradict the information on the page about the Codex Calixtinus, which many people take to be the definitive Way of St. James source. Jane 13:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're completely right; please upload a better image if you have one. Also the mystic pre christian speculation about the shell should be removed or provided with decent references. Arnoutf 14:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I replaced the shell with a map, since that seems more appropriate anyway and was already out on Wiki commons in other languages. For this section on the significance of the shell I will need to do a bit more research. Now I'm curious. Jane 07:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The significance of the scallop symbol

message: Is it reasonable to claim that the Santiago Compestella contains the actual remains of St. James and this is a fact? Or is it more accurately described as a legend? Or even myth?  I will not get in an edit war over this.--Filll 15:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Santiago de Compostella, claims this. However these remains appeared suddenly in the 11th century (or some other early medieval date), while James was buried there in the 1st century (so the actual grave has been lost for about 1,000 yrs). The grave was found at the time the Pope thought it would be a good moment to disrupt the ongoing warring between the Christian Northern Spanish kingdoms and make them focus on the Mores. The pilgrimage (crossing frontlines all the time) would make war between the Christian kingdoms almost impossible, so (very cynically put) the moment of the rediscovery of James' remains was very fortuitous for the Roman Catholic church. In other words, I would put it as legend, rather than fact; unless you have a good (non religious biased) source. Arnoutf 18:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree and did so (and notified the editor who changed it politely why I did so on his/her talk page). Arnoutf 19:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Actual remains of St. James