Talk:Generations of Noah/Tubal

message: ===Tabal / Tubal and Jabal / Jubal===
Wow, you have overturned so much that needs to be challenged here on the talk page, as is normally customary, that I'll have to go issue by issue, section by section, however long this takes.  So for now let's start with the first issue.  You wish to include the names 'Jabal' and 'Jubal' as descriptors of Tubal.  I am not aware of any good reason for doing this; all you did was cite another wikipedia article, Tabal and unfortunately, because wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, it's not always a 100% fool proof source.  So I'll tell you what:  If you can find any evidence of a real attestation of 'Jubal' and 'Jabal' as applied to Tabal in the records of a contemporary neighboring people, I'll agree to it appearing on the table.  The article on Tabal credits a Georgian historian, Javakhishvili for tis connection, but it sounds to me like a confusion with names of people said in Genesis to have lived before the Flood.  So I challenge you to prove support that their neighbours at the time actually knew them as 'Jabal' or 'Jubal'. ፈቃደ 02:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL You're accusing me of "Original research" because I used the phrase "it sounds to me" above??  Goodness, you are too much!!  What I am flatly stating is that the names JABAL and JUBAL are NOT ATTESTED as names for the TABALI in ANY LANGUAGE, all you have is a quote from a wikipedia article that a "Georgian Historian", Javakhishvili, mentions "Jubal" and "Jabal" as "Georgian tribal designations".  I have read everything there is on the Tabali in more than one University library, which evidently you have not, and I have never come across any mention of these names for Tabal ever anywhere before, but perhaps I am missing some research you can point me to.  You on the other hand are spreading shoddy research and non-facts that are helpful to noone from one wikipedia article to another.  I have some factual issues with the Tabal and Tubal articles, and would have done a major expansion of them already, but sadly so much of wikipedia is in such a second-rate state now, my hands have been full elsewhere.  I happen to know who added the Javakhishvili info, and it wasn't Llywrch, who shares many interests with me, but whom I would trust as a competent mediator any day.  It was User:Levzur who added that stuff, in whom I have far less confidence.  Llywrch merely copied Levzur's info from Tubal to Tabal way back when.  Now if you actually know how to do some real research outside of wikipedia, I'm challenging you to find ONE reason to think Tabal was ever called JUBAL by anyone, otherwise I am going to challenge this indefinitely as second rate, half-baked scholarship.  ፈቃደ 14:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fine. Then you should be able to give some idea where this stone referring to TABAL as "Jubal" in Luwian is referred to. Javakhishvili is apparently a respected historian in the field of Georgian history and i wasn't referring to him as shoddy (I haven't read his work) but all we have so far is a wikipedia attribution to him, added by Levzur, as saying that "Jubal" and "Jabal" are  Georgian tribal designations . I'm going to have to insist on something a little stronger than that before I will consent to "Jubal, Jabal" appearing on your table under "Name in other records" for Tabal or Tubal. And it seems you have't got the faintest notion of what "Original Research" consists of.  ፈቃደ 19:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are multiple inscriptions. For example, there is one in the village of Calapverdi and another in Alişar (I think I mentioned that before). I'm going to have to insist that you review Wikipedia's policies. Nowhere does it state that I require your consent, or that you have any kind of ownership here. --User talk:FDuffy 21:17, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It really doesn't matter much to me what you insist.  But, if you are truly incapable of coming up with any documentation whatsoever that the Luwian inscriptions in Calapverdi and Alisar reference either "Jubal" or "Jabal", then policy states it's original research.  If you can find such a source, then I'll cheerfully admit I was wrong and you were right, and we can move on to the next topic.  It's as simple as that.  ፈቃደ 21:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It cannot be original research because it is already present in for example Javakhishvili, and Kurt Bittel. The Luwian inscriptions in Calapverdi and Alisar ARE documentation. They are still there, and you can go and see them with your own eyes to verify at any point you wish (according to a turkish friend of mine the area isn't that safe, though as long as you don't stray too far to the north east, it should be alright). The geographic co-ordinates of Calapverdi are 39° 13' 60N Longditude and 35° 22' 60E Latitude - north of the Eastern corner of Cyprus and in the centre of a north south axis across Turkey. --User talk:FDuffy 12:02, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Okay.  You are claiming Javakhishvili and Bittel as your "sources" for your contention that Luwian inscriptions in Turkey refer to "Jabal" and / or "Jubal".  (BTW, since the Javakhishvili book is in Georgian, I assume you read that language, since you are so confident of what it says).  I don't have to go to Turkey, I can easily check your supposed sources myself, because I would really like to know exactly what they do say, and since you haven't yet provided any actual quotes from either of these authors, I can only wonder if you haven't the foggiest idea what they say yourself, and maybe even bluffing.  So I intend to find out exactly what Java. and Bittel really do say that is relevant to these inscriptions, and add it to this discussion page myself.  I should be able to make it to a large library next week; in the meantime, I'll see if FeanorStar7 can't give us some idea.  Unless, of course, you do have the source quotes, and are willing to share them here. ፈቃደ 14:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Earlier stuff moved here from article's main Talk page

message: Wow, you have overturned so much that needs to be challenged here on the talk page, as is normally customary, that I'll have to go issue by issue, section by section, however long this takes.  So for now let's start with the first issue.  You wish to include the names 'Jabal' and 'Jubal' as descriptors of Tubal.  I am not aware of any good reason for doing this; all you did was cite another wikipedia article, Tabal and unfortunately, because wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, it's not always a 100% fool proof source.  So I'll tell you what:  If you can find any evidence of a real attestation of 'Jubal' and 'Jabal' as applied to Tabal in the records of a contemporary neighboring people, I'll agree to it appearing on the table.  The article on Tabal credits a Georgian historian, Javakhishvili for tis connection, but it sounds to me like a confusion with names of people said in Genesis to have lived before the Flood.  So I challenge you to prove support that their neighbours at the time actually knew them as 'Jabal' or 'Jubal'. ፈቃደ 02:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: LOL You're accusing me of "Original research" because I used the phrase "it sounds to me" above??  Goodness, you are too much!!  What I am flatly stating is that the names JABAL and JUBAL are NOT ATTESTED as names for the TABALI in ANY LANGUAGE, all you have is a quote from a wikipedia article that a "Georgian Historian", Javakhishvili, mentions "Jubal" and "Jabal" as "Georgian tribal designations".  I have read everything there is on the Tabali in more than one University library, which evidently you have not, and I have never come across any mention of these names for Tabal ever anywhere before, but perhaps I am missing some research you can point me to.  You on the other hand are spreading shoddy research and non-facts that are helpful to noone from one wikipedia article to another.  I have some factual issues with the Tabal and Tubal articles, and would have done a major expansion of them already, but sadly so much of wikipedia is in such a second-rate state now, my hands have been full elsewhere.  I happen to know who added the Javakhishvili info, and it wasn't Llywrch, who shares many interests with me, but whom I would trust as a competent mediator any day.  It was User:Levzur who added that stuff, in whom I have far less confidence.  Llywrch merely copied Levzur's info from Tubal to Tabal way back when.  Now if you actually know how to do some real research outside of wikipedia, I'm challenging you to find ONE reason to think Tabal was ever called JUBAL by anyone, otherwise I am going to challenge this indefinitely as second rate, half-baked scholarship.  ፈቃደ 14:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fine. Then you should be able to give some idea where this stone referring to TABAL as "Jubal" in Luwian is referred to. Javakhishvili is apparently a respected historian in the field of Georgian history and i wasn't referring to him as shoddy (I haven't read his work) but all we have so far is a wikipedia attribution to him, added by Levzur, as saying that "Jubal" and "Jabal" are  Georgian tribal designations . I'm going to have to insist on something a little stronger than that before I will consent to "Jubal, Jabal" appearing on your table under "Name in other records" for Tabal or Tubal. And it seems you have't got the faintest notion of what "Original Research" consists of.  ፈቃደ 19:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, there are multiple inscriptions. For example, there is one in the village of Calapverdi and another in Alişar (I think I mentioned that before). I'm going to have to insist that you review Wikipedia's policies. Nowhere does it state that I require your consent, or that you have any kind of ownership here. --User talk:FDuffy 21:17, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  It really doesn't matter much to me what you insist.  But, if you are truly incapable of coming up with any documentation whatsoever that the Luwian inscriptions in Calapverdi and Alisar reference either "Jubal" or "Jabal", then policy states it's original research.  If you can find such a source, then I'll cheerfully admit I was wrong and you were right, and we can move on to the next topic.  It's as simple as that.  ፈቃደ 21:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It cannot be original research because it is already present in for example Javakhishvili, and Kurt Bittel. The Luwian inscriptions in Calapverdi and Alisar ARE documentation. They are still there, and you can go and see them with your own eyes to verify at any point you wish (according to a turkish friend of mine the area isn't that safe, though as long as you don't stray too far to the north east, it should be alright). The geographic co-ordinates of Calapverdi are 39° 13' 60N Longditude and 35° 22' 60E Latitude - north of the Eastern corner of Cyprus and in the centre of a north south axis across Turkey. --User talk:FDuffy 12:02, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Okay.  You are claiming Javakhishvili and Bittel as your "sources" for your contention that Luwian inscriptions in Turkey refer to "Jabal" and / or "Jubal".  (BTW, since the Javakhishvili book is in Georgian, I assume you read that language, since you are so confident of what it says).  I don't have to go to Turkey, I can easily check your supposed sources myself, because I would really like to know exactly what they do say, and since you haven't yet provided any actual quotes from either of these authors, I can only wonder if you haven't the foggiest idea what they say yourself, and maybe even bluffing.  So I intend to find out exactly what Java. and Bittel really do say that is relevant to these inscriptions, and add it to this discussion page myself.  I should be able to make it to a large library next week; in the meantime, I'll see if FeanorStar7 can't give us some idea.  Unless, of course, you do have the source quotes, and are willing to share them here. ፈቃደ 14:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Tabal / Tubal and Jabal / Jubal

message: So just for now, because as I said, there's really a lot of dispute here - just for now, I'm starting with Tubal.  Here, again, is the Duffy, tabular version of Tubal:
Father: Japheth
Name: Tubal
Name in other records: Tabal/Tubal/Jabal/Jubal [sic]
Usual Identification: Luwian tribes [sic]
Associated modern area: South central Anatolia
Earliest known records: 9th Century BC (Assyrian & Luwian texts)
And here is the multi-editor, bullet-point version of Tubal:
*Tubal, son of Japheth. He is connected with the Tabali, an Anatolian tribe, and both the Iberians of the Caucasus and those of the Iberian peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal), as well as Illyrians and Italics. In the book of Jubilees he was bequeathed the three 'tounges' of Europe.
Unlike Duffy's version of Tubal, every single statement in the multi-editor version can be backed up with sources and references.  This has been the usual identification of Tubal for centuries, if not millennia.  Flavius Josephus calles Tubal ancestor of the "Thobelites who are Iberes".  Nennius has him as fathering the "Iberians, Spanish and Italians".  And indeed, Jubilees does mention him as receiving two or three of the 'tongues' of Europe for his inheritance. Further, not only Georgian, but also Basque traditions credit Tubal with being an ancestor, as validly referenced (over Levzur's dead body) on the page Tubal.  This is all highly relevant information for anyone researching the Sons of Noah -- but it won't fit on a table.  But FDuffy doesn't want anyone to be able to read or access this information on wikipedia. Instead, he wants them to read that Tubal corresponds with Luwian tribes who were also called "Jubal" and "Jabal" (sic) - something that even he ought to know better than.  
This great researcher no doubt got the "Luwian" bit from something that I myself added to the article Hittites, ironically enough, after having just read a book that mentions that the Tabals were speaking Luwian in the 9th Century BC.  But the same book I took that from also takes great pains to stress the point that although the Tabals were speaking Luwian in the 9th C. BC, historians are not at all certain that the Tabals themselves were Luwian or Phrygian, since everybody of any ethnic affiliation in the South half of Anatolia was speaking Luwian at that time, from the Aegean to Syria.  It clearly said there is debate on the issue of whether or not the Tabals themselves were Luwians, or just spoke Luwian in the 9th C.  Notice that FDuffy wants to put "Luwian" as "Usual identification" for Tubal, which is disputed, whereas I would rather put "Tabal" as "usual identification" for Tubal, which is a) the correct name of the tribe as attested in records, and b) disputed by noone.  ፈቃደ 14:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  From Discussion after Llywrch (moved from main talk page) 

message: * If you really want to know where all the "Jabal" and "Jubal" stuff comes from, check out the very earliest incarnation of the article Tubal from 6 Jan 2004.  It is a rambling, incoherent rant added by an anonymous user (possibly Levzur himself) that goes on mostly about Jabal, Jubal, and Tubal-Cain - three characters who were, according to Genesis, offspring of Cain who lived well BEFORE Noah, but who have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Tabali of 900 BC.  Soon after that Levzur added a lot more barely coherent stuff in the same vein, including the reference to Javakhishvili.  (The reference to Bittel wasn't even added until much later.)  In the months of 2004 and 2005 the article was slowly but surely brought to a much higher standard by several users, and almost all of the incoherent and off-topic stuff was gradually cut out.  The only remaining reference to "Jabal" and "Jubal", that shouldn't even be in there at all, is the only surviving relic of the original incarnation from January 2004.  It has NOTHING to do with any inscriptions in Çalapverdi, Turkey, the only possible reference given for them is a book written in GEORGIAN that I sincerely doubt Mr. Duffy has read; and at any rate allegedly mentions them as "Georgian tribal designations" - NOT Luwian inscriptions.  In order for "Jabal" and "Jubal" to appear as names for "Tabal", a VALID citation that we can look up must be given, not concocted, fabricated, or pulled out of out hats.  ፈቃደ 23:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where 'Jubal' and 'Jabal' REALLY came from