Talk:Safavid dynasty/Archive 6

message: Mardavich and Kiumars, we have tried to achieve consensus on this page, which the current revision reflects. Mardavich in particular however, as well as Azerbaijani, are trying to one by one fish out the words Turkic from the article, which is not acceptable. I was particularly appalled to see word "Turkic" removed from sentence "Ismail was of mixed Azeri Turkic, Greek and Kurdish heritage". We have spent a lot of time with Ali Doostzadeh to agree on this one, so the violation of the consensus in such a manner, implies we are going back to point 0 and there is no consensus. All of us are watching this article, and the consensus achieved, that is, including quotes from Savory, Frye and Minorsky shall be respected. 
Mardavich, also, your attempt to remove Turkic-speaking from introduction is absolutely out of line. First and foremost, it was agreed to by several users including Ali Doostzadeh. Secondly, it's a milder version of the firm sentence in Iranica by Frye: "Azeri Turks were founders of Safaid Dynasty". So if you try to change Turkic-speaking, then I request that original quote from Frye go on top of the page as is without any editions. Atabek 17:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no consensus yet for you to set any terms. Comment on content, not on contributors, consider this a warning. If you insist on using weasel words like "Turkic-speaking", then I request the full original quote from Frye which clearly states "The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan (q.v.) are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers". --Mardavich 17:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: However, at the time of Safavid ascent to power, the inhabitants of Azerbaijan already spoke Turkic, as did Safavids themselves. So Frye's comment that "Azeri Turks were founders of Safavid dynasty", precisely implies Turkic-speaking inhabitants of Azerbaijan. So the consensus was that instead of boldly saying Azeri Turks were founders, it's rather better says Safavids were a Turkic-speaking dynasty, which is a fact. Atabek 18:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It doesn't matter, you can't cherry pick what parts of Frye's statements you like, and quote him out of the larger context. In the same article that Frye says "Azeri Turks were founders of Safavid dynasty", he also says "The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan (q.v.) are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers" which clarifies Frye's position that "Azeri Turks" are actually Turkified Iranians. Therefore, the full quote from Frye should be used. --Mardavich 19:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Kiumars, Ismail was Azeri Turkic speaker. I don't dispute that he was Farsi speaker as well, I do dispute that he was Kurdish speaker, as Kurdish origin was that of Safi ad-Din, not of Ismail, who was 200 years later. There is no evidence of Ismail's speech or writing in either Greek or Kurdish. Hence making such a claim does not have basis. Atabek 19:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Kiumars, I bet is a good argument, but it's not a scholarly one. We have identified that Sheykh Safi had some Kurdish origins based on several articles, kindly provided by Ali Doostzadeh and myself, as well as Tajik. It's known that Ismail's mother Halima Begum was half-Greek and half-Turkic (her mother was Greek, her father, Uzun Hassan, as Akkoyunlu Turk). So, claiming even Halima's language as Greek is too much, let it alone Ismail. But there is nothing Kurdish in Ismail's origin besides Sheykh Safi's ancestry some 200 years before. Uzun Hassan was closer ascendant of Ismail than Sheykh Safi. Nevertheless, we still indicate that Ismail had Kurdish origins, but saying he spoke Kurdish, is too much invention. Which one? Do you have references? Did he speek Kirmanji or Sorani? I think you need to understand, that Qizilbash, Akkoyunlu and most of Shah Ismail's ancestry were identified as Turkomans. We are not writing here based on our ethnic emotions, but based on facts and articles. Atabek 22:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Atabek, you dont know what your talking about. I kept your information in there, but unlike you, I actually put things in chronological order. Chronological means: In order of time from the earliest to the latest. If you cannot understand this that I dont know what else to do.Azerbaijani 22:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Azerbaijani, I think first of all, you're on a wrong talk page. Chronological stuff was discussed on Ismail I, not on Safavid Dynasty, where users kept using "chronological" and removing Frye quote. Only in most recent few eds it was added back in life and political section. Secondly, keep "you dont know what your talking about" attacks to yourself, they don't contribute to discussion and may result in my warning of personal attack to you. Thirdly, instead of reverting and edit warring on articles, where I make visible  contributions, such as Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, Musavat, Safavid Dynasty, please, contribute a single non-distorted piece (not website, but read a paper on your own, and quote it) on some other page. I work hard to get those quotes from books, and spend time to edit the articles, so your involvement in reverting or distorting this work is neither fair nor acceptable. Atabek 23:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Kiumars, your post lacks any relevance to the topic. And provoking on unrelated topics is useless in this discussion page or in terms of achieving consensus. If you want to know why I use Turkic instead of Turkish, is precisely for that reason, not to associate general origin with a particular modern country. And that's why I usually use the term Azeri Turkic instead of Turkish, Azerbaijani or Azerbaijani Turkish. As for the rest, your idea to differentiate me from Turks of Turkey based on my statement that I am not from Turkey, is really useless. Turkic-speaking people of Azerbaijan and Anatolia share a lot in common, especially in context of Safavids and Qizilbash, this is a fact. Moreover, if you call yourself Kurd, I don't question your origin whether you're from Turkey, Iraq or Iran. Atabek 14:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Terms 3 of Consensus

message: Today I have come to the world as a Master.  
Know Truly I am Haydar's son
I am Faridun, Khusraw, Jamshid and Zohak.
I am Zal's son (Rustam) and Alexandar."  (Note Islamic era Alexander was seen as a Quranic king).  --alidoostzadeh 21:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  interesting poem from the Esmail I