Talk:Edmund the Martyr

message: I intend to make the article a 'good' one again. Small changes to the lead section already done.--Amitchell125 (talk) 17:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The article has been rewritten, pending a few sections that still need to be completed. Hel-hama (talk) 17:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  Rewritten: 'Background' section to be added when completed, 'King of the East Angles' section needs expansion, other sections may need reducing. Hel-hama (talk) 22:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  EtM article 

message: The patron saint of Toulouse appears to be Saint Saturnin of Toulouse, not Edmund. I will be removing this unsubstantiated fact, unless I come across any evidence that it's true.--Amitchell125 (talk) 10:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Toulouse?

message: Britannica didn't use this name  and "Martyr" has a positive meaning. I think it must be changed:)Ladsgroupبحث  02:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is no objects i move the page to "Edmund (king of East Anglia)":)Ladsgroupبحث  03:16, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

text: there will be many objections to this move. 1) can you explain why a saint, martyr and king who has always been called Edmund king and martyr should change. 2) I do not understand what positive meaning there is attached to the title martyr please explain so that I can begin to understand. 3) Britannia is just one encyclopaedia and so lists Edmund as that, if we go down that route there will be many articles to change. I recommend you put forward a request to change the title on the article ans await a concenus. Edmund Patrick –  confer 09:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: 1-because of WP:NPOV 2-read Martyr, Martyr is a hero who sacrifices his/her life for good. 3-Britannica is a natural and unbiased reliable source. When there is a NPOV title that is used in reliable sources, we must move article to this title:)Ladsgroupبحث  18:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: and 2 is exactly what Edmund did, he refused to renounce his faith to others so was put to death so hence Martyr. And therefor 1 is irrelevant. When are you going to start to get a concenus on your proposal, I will bring this discussion to the attention of others to make a start.britania is I am afraid not a natural and unbiased source but one of many recognised sources. Edmund Patrick –  confer 01:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ladsgroup, the Introduction section of C. R. Moss's Ancient Christian Martyrdom (see link) contains a detailed analysis of the term martyr within its Christian context. It may help you to understand why Edmund was indeed martyred by the Vikings and why 'Edmund the Martyr' can be considered a valid title for the article. Please refer to Wikipedia:Requested moves for the correct procedure for you to use if you propose moving the page. Hel-hama (talk) 09:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Ladsgroup, these links may also put into context the name and therefore the title of this article. catholic encyclopedia and http://www.amazon.co.uk/St-Edmund-King-Martyr-Changing/dp/1903153263   and http://www.stedmundsbury.gov.uk/leisure-and-tourism/parks/abbey-gardens/history.cfm. Hope it helps. Edmund Patrick –  confer 11:21, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV name 

message: The article currentls says:
:The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle,..is the only source for a description of the events ...By tradition the leaders who slew the king were Hingwar and his brother Hubba.
But what about  Ragnarssona þáttr? It says: 
:After this battle, Ivar made himself king over that part of England which his forbears had owned before him. He had two brothers born out of wedlock, one called Yngvar, the other Husto. They tortured King Edmund the Saint on Ivar’s orders, and then he took his kingdom. 
Am I missing something here? Snori (talk) 02:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I have deleted the comment about the Chronicle being the only source. The whole article needs revision based on reliable secondary sources, and I do not know whether there are any which take account of Scandinavian sagas. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:34, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is the only source?

message: "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which generally described few matters relating to the East Angles and their rulers, is the only source for a description of the events for the year 869 that led to the defeat of Edmund's army at the hands of the Danes."
This needs changing. Edmund was killed in 870 when Ivar and his army won a battle at Thetford. The traditional date of Edmund's execution/murder is 20th November that year. Source: Anglo-Saxon Chronicle ed. Michael Swanton.
86.140.163.219 (talk) 19:52, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Year of Death 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120205124442/http://www.benedictines.org.uk/abbeys/douai.htm to http://www.benedictines.org.uk/abbeys/douai.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160512024340/https://books.google.com/books?id=tjI9YQBFDGYC&pg=PA676&dq=saint+edmund+%22torture+victims%22&hl=en&ei=u8zxTrDuI4mz8QOHz6zUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=5&ved=0CEoQ6wEwBA to https://books.google.com/books?id=tjI9YQBFDGYC&pg=PA676&dq=saint+edmund+%22torture+victims%22&hl=en&ei=u8zxTrDuI4mz8QOHz6zUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=5&ved=0CEoQ6wEwBA
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replies: text: dead link removed and replaced with working link. Edmund Patrick –  confer 07:27, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In 1966, three teeth from the collection of relics from France were donated to Douai Abbey.
This last sentence is incorrect.
In 1966 Archbishop Gabriel-Marie Garonne of Toulouse sent the Rev Bryan Richard Staples Houghton, the parish priest of St Edmund’s Catholic Church, Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, three loose teeth from St Edmund’s upper jaw.
Source: Saint Edmund King and Martyr. 1970. P.83.  Bryan Houghton.  Published by Terence Dalton Limited   ISBN 900963182.
In the publication 'Christian Order' Bryan Houghton clarifies the statement made in his book:
“The three teeth at Bury. I had made all the arrangements with Cardinal Garonne and had hoped to be one of the “notaries” to verify the “translation” of the relics. We had even settled the date at which I was to be present at Toulouse. Unfortunately he had been appointed in the meantime to be the Prefect of the Congregation for Catholic Education in Rome. His overworked auxiliary transferred the relics at his convenience without waiting for me. He assured me that he had enclosed a properly certified “authentication” in the sealed box containing the three teeth....When I was P.P. of Bury St. Edmunds, the relics were duly incensed on St. Edmund’s Day on the Sunday within the Octave. At Benediction, the faithful duly kissed the box containing the relics. I had intended to erect a transparent safe beside the monument to St. Edmund. But time ran too fast for me.”
Christian Order - Read - Features - January 2013  www.christianorder.com/features/features_2013/features... Cached January 2013 . The Little Box from Toulouse The Relics of St Edmund  In 1966 a small wooden box arrived in Bury St ... 
Bryan Houghton retired as the parish priest of St.Edmund’s Parish on 29th November 1969, before he was able to complete this task. He settled in Viviers, France.
Before his death on the 29th.September 1992 in Montelimar, he returned to Bury St Edmunds. He took the little box containing the three loose teeth to Douai Abbey, Woolhampton, Berkshire ,a Benedictine community, for safe keeping. This fact was confirmed the Geoffrey Scott, Abbot of Douai on the 29th.September 2012.
Rt Rev Dom Geoffrey Scott - Catholic Diocese of Portsmouth ... www.portsmouthdiocese.org.uk/directory/person/875.htm User:Michael Peyton
The text above was incorrectly placed in the article and I have moved it to Talk. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment on three teeth moved from article to Talk 

message: This article uses footnote-style references but, with the exception of a recent addition, does not use the  /  templates, which provide convenient links for the reader from each footnote to the cited source in the bibliography section.  Unless there are objections I propose to convert the existing references to use the harv & sfn templates.  Thoughts? Wham2001 (talk) 11:37, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: As the editor who added the sfn ref, I obviously would be happy with the change. I prefer the sfn format to the harv one, but that is a personal preference. Is there a reason you suggest using both? Dudley Miles (talk) 13:40, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  sorry, I wasn't clear; I was intending to use  unless it was necessary to use .  I generally prefer sfn because it's more compact, but there's the odd thing that, as far as I can tell, one can't do with it (e.g. two references to the same page of a source with different quotations or parenthetical notes). At a glance I don't see anything of that sort in this article, though.  Best, Wham2001 (talk) 16:10, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. I am not sure why sfn would ever be used for notes. I always use . Dudley Miles (talk) 16:20, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

text: Since there have been no objections I'm going to get started on the conversion. Wham2001 (talk) 09:10, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referencing style 

message: Why does the second sentence say that he is incorrectly referred to as the first patron saint of England?  The reference cited does not say that.86.136.209.221 (talk) 21:10, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is an excellent question, and I am not sure how that got in there.  I am going to look around a bit, but if I don't find anything, I'll change it if someone hasn't either beaten me to the punch or substantiated that wording.  Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 21:23, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Cor to revisit this subject after all these years! Can I ask that everybody who hasn't to read through archive one of this topic and see the many many discussions about whether St Edmund was the Patron saint of England. There are enough reliable references to put forward that he was the patron saint of what was called England at the time. Happy to assist. Edmund Patrick –  confer 07:08, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Edmund Patrick, but whatever we decide about the truth value of the claim, it is certainly the case that the current citation does not support the sentence as worded.  Do you think the sentence should be reworded?  Or perhaps can suggest another source?  It would be appreciated!  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second sentence is odd 

message: This article http://www.facesofarthur.org.uk/fabio/app3.htm relates the legend that Edmund was captured at Hoxne, Suffolk, and also says that according to an historic source he was killed in a place that sounds like modern Harleston. There is Harleston, Norfolk, and Harleston, Suffolk. Harleston, Norfolk, is not very far from Hoxne. Also, information board number eight, downloadable here, https://www.hoxnehistory.org.uk/HHW.php describes St Edmunds Cross on the site where a possible arrowhead was found in an ancient oak tree, and mentions a chapel to him built near his place of death. I do not have any historical knowledge or expertise so I cannot evaluate the probability of any of this being true. 92.24.184.68 (talk) 10:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Death of St Edmund at Hailston or Haegelisdun - sounds like modern Harleston