Talk:Transcendental Meditation/Archive 8

message: I put the Pagels quote in a separate section, with the subhead "Philosophical framework," since the quote is explicity related to the philosophical framework and not the scientific research. No research has been done on the unified field and TM. I see that an anonymous editor has deleted the heading and has put it back into the scientific research section. I hope that person will stop by here and give a rationale. Otherwise, I may eventually put that subhead back. I think it's important for readers to know that Pagels is not commenting on the research.TimidGuy 19:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pagels and unified field 

message: I removed the information regarding Harold Bloomfield's arrest. It seemed pointless and didn't contribute to information about Transcendental Meditation or the Natural Law Party. There were hundreds of NLP candidates. Is it relevant to the entry if any one of those persons is subsequently arrested sometime in their lives? If there were somehow a pattern, like that of priests in the Catholic church, then it might be relevant. As it stands, the evidence is that Bloomfield's arrest appears to be an isolated instance.TimidGuy 21:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bloomfield information 

message: I've been editing the cult section because it was simply a list of references and said nothing about why TM is alleged to be a cult. So I researched the sources and put in more detail. I also added an opposing point of view.TimidGuy 20:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cult section 

message: I propose to delete a sentence at the beginning of the article that states, “Transcendental Meditation is also the name of a movement led by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.”
It is confusing to refer to Transcendental Meditation as a "movement" when it is a specific mental technique. It’s not the name of the organization that teaches the Transcendental Meditation program.
Also, as a technical legal matter and practical matter, to refer to “Transcendental Meditation” also as a "movement" isn’t appropriate. Transcendental Meditation is a registered service mark under the class of educational services, as a description of a specific, proprietary meditation technique. The owner of the mark is the one who has the exclusive right to control its definition and commercial use, and this is not a usage it has consented to. It is important that the term Transcendental Meditation be used correctly. As the Wikipedia entry about trademarks notes, an organization holding a trademark must actively enforce it in order to retain it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimidGuy (talk • contribs) 12:53 8 November 2006 UTC
:I think it is a lot more simple then that. Look around the web, look at reliable sources. Look at other encylopedias. How do they reffer to TM? Take a look and let me know what you find. Sethie 20:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great if you're satisfied, then we'll leave it at that. Sethie 21:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trademark issue 

message: I've just been looking at this study and realized that this paragraph is misleading.  What the authors mean by “negative” is that TM didn’t have a more beneficial effect than other programs. They are using the term in a technical scientific sense -- something a layman may not understand.TimidGuy 20:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Canter & Ernst study 

message: I've made a few clarifications - the standard format for learning TM is the seven-step procedure, which has been in place for many years. The "various formats" in which TM was once taught is not relevant here. I also changed the world "performed" to "practiced".Purple Iris 03:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for catching this Iris. You're right -- it's been the same systematic 7-step procedure since at least the mid 1960s. Maybe even before then. This is one of the hallmarks of the technique. TimidGuy 12:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes to Learning TM 

message: I've moved the section about TM being no more effective than other relaxation techniques to the section pertaining to research about TM as it seems a more appropriate location rather than "criticisms". I removed an addendum from that section which was based on a misunderstanding. The writer appears to have mistaken the conclusion that "TM is no more effective than other relaxation techniques" for "TM is ineffective". I've also added a fact tag on a claim I would like verified about fee being used to fund programs in poor countries, and I've remove a piece of clear spam from something called "invisible America". Jefffire 16:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your attention to the article. Good changes. TimidGuy 12:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved section and other changes 

message: I feel like this article is shaping up and that the biggest weakness now is its unwieldy size and inclusion of material that's tangential to Transcendental Meditation. In particular, it seems like the long section on the Global Country of World Peace could be moved to a separate article in Wikipedia. We would still leave a short paragraph in the Criticism section calling attention to this article, and would direct readers to it. Also, we would add material at the beginning of the Global Country article explaining what the Global Country is and why it was formed. This proposal is in accordance with the Wikipedia guideline on WP:SIZE. TimidGuy 12:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal: Move Global Country section to separate article 

message: This section: "TM-Sidhi Program and the Maharishi Effect" is very long.  Perhaps it could be broken down with some subsections as it is difficult to read such long uninterrupted passages on a monitor. -THB 01:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the suggestion, THB. I agree. I had just been thinking the same thing. I was actually thinking of proposing that we move it to a new article. The TM-Sidhi program is a different technique from Transcendental Meditation. Most people who learn TM don't also learn the TM-Sidhi program. Also, the Maharishi Effect research is of quite a different kind than the research on Transcendental Meditation. If we were to move it to a new article, we would still leave a couple paragraphs about it in the criticism section and mentioning the contoversy. Either way, we need to add subheads. I'll work on that.TimidGuy 12:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Added the subheads. Now I'm thinking that on a similar topic, we should consider removing the subheads in the Political Activities section now that it's so much shorter. Having these subheads is misleading in the Table of Contents. For example, clicking on Global Country in the table of contents brings up a single sentence.TimidGuy 16:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Long section -- headings needed

message: The sentence "The Transcendental Meditation technique comes from the ancient Vedic tradition of India" presents MMY's teaching as fact.  The statement is, however, subject to dispute.  For example, MMY's very qualifications to teach are disputable (for example, search for "A Visit to the Shankaracharya" on minet.org).   
I propose a small change to create a statement that is indisputable: "Maharishi teaches that the Transcendental Meditation technique comes from the ancient Vedic tradition of India". 
(My home computer is fried and I'm off all next week, so if we don't finish this discussion today I'll check back after Thanksgiving weekend.  For those in the US, have a Happy Thanksgiving!)   Tanaats 20:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think this is a good change. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.TimidGuy 21:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, the change is in.  (And I again forgot to login before making it!).  Tanaats 23:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Based on the Vedas

message: I think this sentence is a bit off (unless I completely misunderstand it): "Beyond the initial meditation technique, the TM organization offers numerous other programs and products, such as its TM-Sidhi program, which involves the silent mental recitation of selected yoga sutras of Patanjali [20], followed by portions the ninth and tenth mandalas of the Rig Veda chanted by Vedic pandits."   
When I did the sidhis, we didn't have any Vedic pandits chant for us afterwards. :)   How about "...followed by readings from portions of the ninth and tenth mandalas of the Rig Veda"?  Tanaats 23:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been years since there were readings. And the statement as it currently reads also isn't accurate. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to give any details about the program.TimidGuy 02:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's no problem now, someone changed it to "recorded portions".  Tanaats 20:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Post-sidhi Veda readings

message: Iris. Thanks for adding info about the Global Country. But I think this information should go in the new article that was created rather than in the TM article.TimidGuy 02:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Global country 

message: Can anyone figure out what happened to all our discussion from Nov 1-15? It's gone and I don't see it in the archives.TimidGuy 17:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing content on Talk page 

message: Sfacets made a change to two subheads and cited the Wikipedia Manual of Style as grounds for making the changes. I looked at the Manual of Style and couldn't find any points relevant to the changes he made. I posted on his Talk page, asking him to point me to the relevant guideline. He didn't respond. I think I'm going to change the headings back to the way they were, since I thought that they were more neutral that way. TimidGuy 12:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headings 

message: I deleted these two sentences. Sethie had tagged the first sentence as being unsupported original research. The second sentence violated the guideline on Avoid weasel words  and ad populum arguement.TimidGuy 12:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deletion of two-sentence intro to Criticism section 

message: I changed the sentence about the research on TM to read to determine "its effects on the mind and the body". This seems more accurate than the previous statement, to determine whether it has effects on the mind and body.
Purple Iris 22:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section of the article