Talk:Online creation/Archive 2

message: Chris Woodward and Herb Gilliland wrote the software in late 1992, and it was hacked in December of 1992.  Many of the earlier releases are not in circulation today.
In early 1993, Locke released a version publically with the unorthodox version numbers "11" "12" "13" "14" and "15" it after they had realized that the hacked source may have been circulating.  When Merc 2.x came out, Locke then installed the software in the latest version (there were many initial releases of Merc, including 2.2).  Subsequent releases were based on this source code.
The package 'TheIsles15.code.tar.gz' was created by Thoric or at Thoric's request by a third party as one of his attempts at being restrictive a la a software license as an excuse to hurt TheIsles codebase from ever being adopted as the new Merc.  This was actually not necessary under the Public Domain part of the US copyrights law.
:This is not true.  I had nothing to do with creating that archive.  --Thoric 19:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is all anecdotal hearsay, with no proof to back it up.  Please provide some sort of documentation to back up your claims.  There are no publicly available archives of TheIsles previous to "11" or "1.1".  All versions 1.1 (v11) through 1.5 (v15) were released within a period of less than a month, likely all the same week.  The only version containing documentation states that OLC was introduced in version 1.0 (v10), and is dated August 10th, 1994.  The above mentioned package TheIsles15.code.tar.gz was not created by me, but was provided by Locke in 1995.  The package TheIsles1.1.tar.gz is the most complete archive from 1994, and there is no evidence that it is a "hoax".  I have never tampered with any MUD archive files on ftp.game.org aside from the addition of a "ftp_game.org" tag file to some archives for tracking purposes. --Thoric 18:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I did add the information to this talk page... several times.  How about reading it?  --Thoric 16:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The release date is August 1994.  This does not mean that the code wasn't completed earlier, just that it was not publically released until August of 1994 or possibly even later.  Anyone can claim they did anything at anytime, but no public record of it exists until it is released, or patented or copyrighted.  I could say that I wrote OLC code in 1985 if I wanted to, but that wouldn't make it true without some proof to back it up.  According to the oldest available documentation which is contained in the archive TheIsles1.1.tar.gz in a file called isles/docs/isles10.txt, there is quite a bit of information on the code that could have only been written by someone who knew the code reasonably well, and based on my reading of it, it appears to have been written by Locke, especially since under the "Contacting us" section it says, "I (Locke, coder of everything else) can be reached at: locke@telerama.lm.com".  I advice you (and anyone else interested) to please read over this file, as it clears things up quite nicely.  --Thoric 16:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I haven't staked any claim over NiMUD OLC, and I have absolutely nothing to do with censoring or removing information from any archives.  In fact, I was the only site who didn't refuse to host it.  My only contestation is the claimed release dates, and Locke's claim that SMAUG's Online Building is somehow based upon NiMUD's OLC -- even though he stated otherwise several times, and then continues to go back on his statements.  --Thoric 16:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Additionally, if (as you claim on www.mudolc.org) that TheIsles15 is the first public release, it is dated August 22nd, 1994 (later than version 1.0's date of August 10th, 1994), so this only pushes your date further into the future.  --Thoric 20:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: I'll have to do that.  --Thoric 16:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Said comment is from a long, long time ago in this article's history.  Your attempt to lay claim to every single OLC system on any Dikumud variant is an ego-driven vanity effort.  You should be satisfied that most Merc/Envy/ROM derivatives sport a variant of your OLC system, but you will not be satisfied until you spread enough lies to try to convince everyone that you invented the concept, regardless of proof -- and even though I have an email from you dated July 9th, 2005 where you agree that SMAUG's online building system wasn't based on your OLC code.  --Thoric 00:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Version 1.0, and also version 1.5 of TheIsles (original public releases) did not contain any files older than August 11th, 1994.  One cannot presume that earlier versions were released significantly ealier.  Produce some archives for analysis.  --Thoric 00:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Here are some exerpts from isles/docs/isles10.txt:
 The Isles
 
 
 What is The Isles?
 
 The Isles is a modified Merc 2.2 source code, with many features not present
 in the original Merc source.  However, with features there are always bugs,
 and bugs are definitely what I have inadvertantly added.
*The above is evidence TheIsles/NiMUD v1.0 was based on Merc 2.2 source code (Merc 2.2 was released on November 24th, 1993, so it is impossible to claim that NiMUD v1.0 was released before such time)
 ===============================================================================
 *Added online creation (as per Surreality's coding!).
 
      Yes, folks, we now have OLC.  BUT at some cost.   STR() had to be
  added everywhere, as well as a total revamping of the database.  I think
  the look of the new format is much improved over the other, with minimal
  size adjustment.
*The above is evidence that TheIsles/NiMUD v1.0 was the first release including OLC.
 ===============================================================================
  Removed stock Merc/Diku areas pending major building habits of our immorts.
 
      We wanted to start from scratch, it was a pity that we didn't get a
  real chance to.  Partially my fault, partially my high standards. Needless
  to say, Merc/Diku ares ARE GONE.  Why?  They took away from the RP that we
  wanted to have develop.
*Note above that the Merc/Diku areas were purposely removed from v1.0.
 ---------------------------------- Contacting us ------------------------------
 
 I (Locke, coder of everything else) can be reached at:
 locke@telerama.lm.com
 
 Surreality (coder of the Online Creation) can be reached at:
 surreal@telerama.lm.com        (he rarely replies, send mail to above)
 
 8/10/94  (*** Note the date -- August 10th, 1994)
 
 
 File manifest:
 
 Makefile
 ac.c            - communication actions                   (was ACT_COMM.C)
 ai.c            - informative actions                     (was ACT_INFO.C)
 am.c            - movement actions                        (was ACT_MOVE.C)
 ao.c            - object actions                          (was ACT_OBJ.C)
 ar.c            - racial actions                          *** NEW FILE ***
 aw.c            - wizard actions                          (was ACT_WIZ.C)
 comm.c          - communications
 db2.c           - the new database routines               *** NEW FILE ***
 def.c           - defines                                 (was CONST.C)
 fgt.c           - fighting/combat routines                (was FIGHT.C)
 hnd.c           - money, attribute etc manipulation       (was HANDLER.C)
 int.c           - interface procedures                    (was INTERP.C)
 merc.h          - the main header
 mgc.c           - spells                                  (was MAGIC.C)
 oc.c            - Online Creation (surreality's)          *** NEW FILE ***
 oc.h            - Online Creation (surreality's)          *** NEW FILE ***
 scr.c           - scripts (all inclusive)                 *** NEW FILE ***
 spec.c          - spec_procs                              (was SPECPROC.C)
 startup*        - autoreboot script CSH and others
 startupSH*      - autoreboot script SH and others
 sv.c            - routines to save objects and characters (was SAVE.C)
 upd.c           - routines that effect repeated calls     (was UPDATE.C)
 
 If you decide to run a mud based on the Isles, we'd LOVE to hear from you,
 so email Locke at locke@telerama.lm.com and let us know!  Thanks!!!
*Above is evidence of an August 10th, 1994 release of TheIsles/NiMUD v1.0 --Thoric 01:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On the Dates Issue with Thoric 

message: First section seems to have been cleared up.
Second thing, I don't know enough about this to rewrite it very accurately, but the part talking about SMAUG's online building sounds like it has changed and isn't clear in what way it has.  The original message says that SMAUG's system was completely separate from the one called OLC, and inspired by some other online building systems, and the new one says that it was influenced by OLC with no references to the other systems.  After reading the entire article, one comes away with the idea that all online creation systems (at least all diku ones) were based on this one system and that there have never existed any other systems.  For the SMAUG one, I don't know where it had inspiration from because I'm not terribly interested in diku muds.  Someone should probably e-mail whoever's responsible for SMAUG and ask them directly, and then put their response on this article, or else go from the SMAUG readme (which I haven't looked for due to not being interested enough).
:Doesn't anyone read anymore?  I've already stated serveral times in this talk page that SMAUG's online building was created in 1994 after using MozartMUD's online building in 1993.  I am responsible.  I wrote the code. --Thoric 16:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This statement is a boldfaced lie.  There is no proof that those features existed in Mozart or anywhere other than Hidden Worlds at the time.  Also, MozartMUD's administrator hasn't made a comment, so he isn't backing up this claim.  I think we already went over this, though. -Locke 151.201.10.145 04:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't claim responsibility for the Mozart code, only responsibility of the SMAUG code.  --Thoric 04:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

text: Licensing: NiMUD's license differs from Merc/Diku license by one line: please contact the authors before you set it up, so we know who you are.  The purpose was to get feedback from the users (other administrators) to help develop the community (public) version.  Jason Dinkel followed that license, and requested to make a port.  The request was granted in or around 1994-1996 (probably is date-able in ILAB's documentation).  -Locke 151.201.10.145 04:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tim on Jul 16 

message: Please do not revert this article to unsourced claims. The evidence clearly shows that TheIsles/NiMUD OLC was developed in August of 1994. I have publicly available documentation backing this up. TheIsles1.1.tar.gz and TheIsles1.1.tar.gz. Even Locke previously had a copy of this code available on mugs.net, but removed it along with all older copies of TheIsles/NiMUD. If it was a "hoax" release, he would not have put it up on his site. --Thoric 18:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert 

message: courtesy of Atari2600tim, it has come to the attention of the Mediation Cabal that a certain user (Eggster) has been editing this article with information that is allegedly incorrect and blatant advertising. I, on behalf of the Mediation Cabal, have decided to take on this case. A reply by Eggster on Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-01-24 Online Creation would be appreciated before any action is decided upon. Firestorm 22:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mediation Cabal to the Rescue! 

message: Here's everything I changed today, I'm listing even the most insignificant things.  I don't think I'm changing anything that's questionable, but if so please add a comment to this.
*Made a few things shorter
*Got rid of some redundancy (something like 'at least 35 derived works, many unauthorized, however, many were unauthorized', for example) and things that are obvious or can be assumed
*Moved NiMUD license info from ILAB/OLC to seemingly more-relevant NiMUD section
*See also: removed things already linked, and re-added a popular MUD file hosting place
*Reworded one part because Diku doesn't have an OLC that's packaged with it as standard
*Mozart's text seems to be quoted from their description on the different MUD listings, since it's written from their point of view ("we'll make it possible") and the subtitle says that it's from it :P  I'm going to italicize it and say that it's a quote, and take that out of the subtitle, and make a link to their MUD.  A link to the web site and credit should be put on here at least.  Basically, unauthorized quotes on Wikipedia is a Bad Thing, even if you're not taking it from Britannica or something like that.  This isn't a problem for the NiMUD or SMAUG sections because both the quotes in the NiMUD section are from Locke/Eggster and the quotes in the SMAUG section are from Thoric, so you both obviously are approving of your words being used on Wikipedia.  Well, anyway, back to Mozart's part... there is 1 line that actually refers to its editing system, so could probably expand on it a lot in order to balance the article some (it currently talks about player killing and stuff and is much different than the other sections)
**"Only public domain resources can be copied without permission—this does not include most web pages." is on the bottom of the editing page, if you didn't notice :P  I think the CircleMUD builder's guide quote is short enough that it can be counted as fair use, despite the guide not having info about redistribution rights.  For the Oasis one, I would suggest someone find a better quote since the whole TinyMUD guide doesn't have a reference to Oasis (unless I found a different one than you).  I did find a few places that have that guide plus another guide, and I don't know about the Oasis OLC to know how different it is, or if anyone even bothered to write a guide for it (If it's based on TinyMUD's then it'd make some sense to just keep track of the small differences and otherwise go by the TinyMUD guide).  I don't know enough about it myself though, or else I would have added it earlier :P
*Competing works section indirectly implies that the other OLC systems took advantage of a leaked 1992 release.  Oasis' using TinyMUD's documentation shows that it's based on TinyMUD, and also the name was not borrowed from NiMUD because OLC was used prior to NiMUD.
*I moved Mozart up one space because it's in alphabetical order this way (ignoring "The")
157.89.243.239 00:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  changes for Jan 25 

message: Every time I look it seems like there's 5 or more wrong things added on here.  What's sad is that I've never used a single one of these OLC systems, and am familiar with none of them, yet the mistakes in this article are obvious enough for even me to see.  --Atari2600tim 05:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ugh 

message: There is a large amount of detail regarding NiMUD's history that is unrelated to this article.  There already is a separate NiMUD article where much of it should be moved to. --Atari2600tim 02:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  MUD history 

message: According to the link posted by Locke in recent edits, on December 31, 1993, Locke promised that some time in the future, he will give out some code for his OLC thing to two people, and has no intention of ever releasing it to the public.  He is using this as support for returning his statement The first publicly available OLC was released officially in the software package NiMUD or "The Isles MUD" by authors Herb "Locke" Gilliland and Christopher "Surreal" Woodward in September of 1993.  I think it'd be good to let Locke cool down some before fixing this, and allow him the dignity of having a chance to correct it himself.  --Atari2600tim 16:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever happened at Mud Magic happened because people decided to gang up on me.  [personal attacks against Kyndig and Thoric and Mud Connector admin removed -Tim] It's outrageous.  [personal attacks against Kyndig (admin of Mud Magic) removed -Tim]  He apparantly prefers incompleteness and incompetance over competance and completeness.  The reason why I list initiation times is because July 94 is not the release date and the release dates are more like May-September to small groups: that to me is public, because its public the moment you give it away to someone else: meaning, there is no longer any control over the source code. It was given away around the time of those first posts.  Also, "initiated" open source projects fall under the new Creative Commons philosophies about open source, see processing.org where the project is "initiated" at a certain date.  This is the new trend in open source.  -Locke 151.201.10.145 08:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding "that to me is public, because its public the moment you give it away to someone else: meaning, there is no longer any control over the source code", it seems that you asked people who you gave it to to promise not to redistribute it.  By your definition, Windows XP is "open source" because the source was shared among Microsoft employees.  Regarding the needless personal attacks against Kyndig, I'm removing them partially in this edit as WP:RPA suggests to do, and placing the appropriate warning on your IP's talk page and Eggster talk page.  I'd remove it all if I could reword it and keep it in context, but it's all spread through the entire paragraph so it's still kinda bad.  Regarding the trend that you're referring to about how initiation dates are significant with many open source projects, the difference between most open source projects and NiMUD is that many other projects are open source from the beginning; the initial release and announcement is often on the same day.  Many times, projects aren't even announced anywhere until there's a first release.  According to a link that you yourself added to this article, ("Online CReation Code !!"), as late as December 31, 1993, you decided that you were going to give it to one person plus whoever gives you free hosting.  Yet, you used that very link to support your quote of The first publicly available OLC was released officially in the software package NiMUD or "The Isles MUD" by authors Herb "Locke" Gilliland and Christopher "Surreal" Woodward in September of 1993. which prompted me to add this section to the talk page.  Because of the conflicting information and all, it's a good idea to either add more info so that it can be understood (thus include both the start of coding and the release date), or else have less info, so that there won't have to be so many disclaimers all throughout.  --Atari2600tim 11:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just read what you write sometimes 

message: I began releasing the source code well before July of 1994; I wouldn't have posted feature descriptions if it wasn't available by request.  Since the license that came to be known as the 'NiMUD' license is based on the idea that NiMUDs are put up by request only, if the owner wishes to follow the license.  Since there was no solely-mud related repository at the time, MUD administrators would hang out on r.g.m.d and talk directly to the authors on the MUDs they advertised to swap source code or share ideas.  Thoric's repository damaged that intimacy in favor of a long standing MUD repository which was recognizable among DikuMUD hobbyists. -Locke 151.201.10.145 03:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Private releases "upon request" do not count as "official public releases".  --Thoric 07:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This release date garbage. 

message: I removed references to NiMud 2000 release announcement as spurious and reference IRT sabotage and source leaking from page as they aren't NPOV and the reference doesn't support the summary.  --Jlambert 13:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed spurious and non-NPOV references