Talk:Leroy Grumman

message: Grumman was commonly known as Roy Grumman, although his given name was Leroy. The two sources currently in the article make note of this, as does a search of Google News archive. He's been dead almost 27 years, so sources that would discuss this are a bit more difficult to find, but it's not at all a stretch given the article sources already in place and the Google News hits above. I made the move and an objection was raised; any thoughts here?  Frank    talk  17:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, more than 60 hits in Google Books. I realize there are more hits in both GNews and GBooks for "Leroy" than for "Roy" but that merely indicates it was his given name. There are still a significant number of hits (significant enough, in my opinion) to support that he was commonly known and referred to as "Roy".  Frank    talk  17:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Although the more common or more familiar name is used in naming Wikipedia articles, in this instance, it is a case of come çi, comme sa. My favourite: Leroy, as used in a majority of reference sources. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Concur with Bzuk on being used in the majority of references. Per WP:NCP: "General Wikipedia Naming Conventions start from easy principles: the name of an article should be "the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things". This boils down to the two central ideas in Wikipedia article naming: (1) The name that is most generally recognisable; and (2) The name that is unambiguous with the name of other articles." "Leroy Grumman" is defintely the most recognizable name. "Roy" appears to have been used by people who knew him, but is not as common in print, hence less "recognisable". Btw, it's Clarence Johnson on WP, not Kelly Johnson! (An issue for that page, not here). - BillCJ (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Bill, note my comment below. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

text: This is definitely not the main problem with this article (see below) and regardless, a consensus of interested/involved editors would be necessary for a disputed/controversial move. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps not, but the proposed move is what this section is about. Doesn't mean the article can't be improved also. Besides - this move isn't disputed or controversial; the only objection is "no consensus to move".  Frank    talk  01:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have objected to the move, whether you think I phrased it correctly or not. Bzuk has also stated his preference for keeping the title here. I reverted your moved because it was undiscussed, and because you had no consensus to move it (meaning you didn't discuss it all before hand.) I have also stated my objections to the move/preferences for keeping it here, but I don't have to state all that when reverting the move. Btw, I have reverted moves I agreed with because I knew others would object (and often had already), but did support it during the move discussions. Gaining a consensus is important on WP. So far, you do not have a consensus to move. - BillCJ (talk) 02:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Perhaps it is a factor of the passage of time, but I recently watched two separate video documentaries on the Grumman Wildcat and Hellcat, and both productions pointedly used "Leroy". FWiW Bzuk (talk) 05:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I had already created the redirect, so I guess this issue is more or less closed now.  Frank    talk  20:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed move 

message: There are entire statements and sections copied verbatim from sources. This article should be entirely re-written to avoid further copyviols. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 18:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What sources is it copied form, and what sections are vios? It definetely needs to be dealt with, but I don't have the books, and haven't had time to track down the internet sources. - BillCJ (talk) 21:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Before I started editing, I noted the only two sources given were cribbed relentlessly and that was extremely unusual. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 05:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Copyviol

message: Hi fellow WikiEditors! I've made some small improvements to this brief biography article. What it seems to me, there is more info about "Grumman Aircraft" (the company) than "Leroy Grumman" (the founder). I don't have too much info about his life, can please anyone help? Thanks & regards, DPdH (talk) 05:35, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: See note above, the focus of the article is not the main concern, it's about the copyviols. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 05:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: BillZ, you're being unusually obtuse (or I'm being extra dense!), because I'm just not getting it. Could you email me if there's more you don't want to mention in the open? (Use the Wiki-email feature, as I'm not sure you have my new address.) DPdH, I agree the article should be focused nmore on the man than the company. I'll look at it once BillZ is done here, but he's a good writer, so I doubt there'll be much for me to do. :) - BillCJ (talk) 05:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article too focused on the company, not the person 

message: He is reported to have graduated in 1911 in numerous sources, some available easily but not listed in the article, such as http://town.huntington.ny.us/permit_pics/213.pdf and http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/people/grumman.html. Other sources are in the article but not available online and support the 1911 graduation date. The "Sky King" reference (listed in the article) also says it: "In 1911, at age 16, Grumman said in his high school salutatorian address..."  Frank    talk  00:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Might have a been a typo on my part. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 00:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  High school graduation 

message: Regarding Grumman's position in the military, he was a machinist's mate, not a Machinist's Mate. If we were writing a narrative, we might write something such as "Machinist's Mate (2nd Class) Leroy Grumman was ...." However, when writing that it was his job title, it is not capitalized. By a similar convention, John McCain is a senator; he is also Senator John McCain. Please see WP:MOSCAP for more details, especially Military terms and Titles.  Frank    talk  14:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thnx. Bzuk (talk) 15:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization 

message: It sounds perfectly plausible that Grumman was named "Long Islander of the Century" by Newsday as has been claimed occurred in 2001. However, I've done a pretty extensive search of Newsday's archives in a university library's online database and cannot find any way to cite this from a reliable source. The reference I just removed, from the Long Island Business News did not actually cite the source in Newsday, so it's hearsay and not reliable. 
I'm not saying it never happened; I'm just saying it can't be properly sourced. If we can find a good source for it, it's worth putting back in, but at the moment, I don't think it's appropriate. (In addition, if we do find a source, we don't need the bit about "beating out such luminaries as Charles Lindberg" - this is WP:PEACOCK wording that is not appropriate. I'm just making that note in advance because I do think we might get a proper reference for it; I just haven't found it myself.)  Frank    talk  00:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: See:Thomas J. Kelly and the Cambridge University entry on Leroy Grumman. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 01:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't mean to be flippant here, but...see WP:RS. This shouldn't be hard to nail down if Newsday really had such a poll; I even tried again and couldn't find it.  Frank    talk  01:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't the normal recourse simply to mark the section as needing a citation instead of reverting? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 01:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Did that at first, but after days of exhaustive searching on the man, I haven't been able to find anything approaching reliable to support it. If it seems likely it just needs a cite, it's ok to leave it in. If nothing supports it, it's best to leave it out. We are, after all, looked at as a resource, and verifiability is included in the first of the five pillars.  Frank    talk  01:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: A number of different sources did refer to the honour, so it's not that it came out of supposition... FWiW Bzuk (talk) 01:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Keep looking, Newsday is likely to have a searchable index somewhere. All you (or I, since we seem to be the only ones interested in this article?!) need is a date and source. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've already searched four...Newsday's own web site plus three databases: NewsBank, LexisNexis and Ebscohost.  Frank    talk  02:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

text: I still think that it is verifiable. I do have a note that Leroy Grumman is enshrined in the Long Island Technology Hall of Fame, inducted in 2002, which is in an online source and probably as prestigious an honour. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it should be verifiable, but so far I've been unable to do so and nobody else has provided a reliable source either. He has won (and 26 years after his death, continues to win) numerous awards, so I don't doubt that it is possible he won this poll. We just need a reference from a reliable source.  Frank    talk  17:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: At the risk of actually doing research, I did find the reference for the Long Islander of the Century that was part of a centennial project run by the "marketing" department of Newsday. The weekend supplements featuring selected historical personalities including Leroy Grumman whose biographical article appeared first in the grouping, were published early in 2001 with the final "poll" results appearing in the February 2001 weekend supplement. Due to the restricted nature of having only a few candidates, Grumman ran against Charles Lindbergh and Thomas J. Kelly, who was responsible for the design of NASA's Lunar module, the marketing/advertising manager characterized the poll as a "glamour run-off" which far from being scientific. The reason why the supplement was not archived was that it was considered more of an "adeditorial" as is much of the newspaper's advertising supplement. When other sources began to quote the results of the poll, Newsday staff were quick to point out that the poll was neither definitive nor intended to be anything other than a "puff piece." Considering all of that, Grumman's 2002 induction into the Long Island Technology Hall of Fame is much more significant. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what "at the risk of actually doing research" means, but the end result, I think, is that the information is inappropriate in the article. It would be nice to have citations to support it not being in the article for future reference, such as a link to Newsday staff pointing out that it was an advertising supplement. In any case, I think we've arrived at the right place regarding this particular point.  Frank    talk  22:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that talking to Newsday staff constitutes first-person research as I couldn't get a handle on the information any other way. FWiW, I was hoping that I would merely get a pointer to where the information was located but finding out that the reason the supplement was never archived even in the publishing house library was due to the  newspaper considering the poll of limited value.  Bzuk (talk) 00:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: That's reasonable, and I'll assume you meant nothing unintended by the "at the risk of actually doing research" comment. Thanks for wrapping this one up.  Frank    talk  02:13, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Long Islander of the Century 

message: Although the article alludes to the company culture, it can be attributed to the unusual pairing of Swirbul and Grumman. They resolved early in their partnership to work out of one office; both men further pledged that any problems or conflicts that arose between them would not fester, and that neither man would leave the office until they came to an understanding. That conflict resolution model worked wonders on their relationship and was translated directly into the company's employees. During his entire tenure, Grumman's "boys" remained loyal and steadfast. It was the only aeronautical company throughout the mid-20th Century that maintained its workforce in numbers that were twice that of the industry standard. When Grumman asked employees to fill in a request to leave for other prospects in the weeks before VJ Day, only 126 employees out of 20,500 indicated that they wanted to leave their employ. See: O'Leary (1983), p. 29. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: An excellent point to be made in the Grumman article.  Frank    talk  03:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: and a point made about Grumman's personal working style... FWiW Bzuk (talk) 03:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Working style

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