Talk:Cryptic crossword

message: I believe there is another kind of clue we might consider mentioning in the list. This is where the answer to the clue actually contains cryptic wordplay. I can't think of a really good example, but it is like giving "Gab offers diverse selection?" [5,3] as a clue, with the answer being "MIXED BAG". Or supplying the clue "Me, at intermission" [4,4,], with the answer "HALF TIME". Did I just hallucinate this kind of clue or is it out there in the world?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.60.110 (talk) 05:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "cryptic solution" clue type 

message: Why was http://www.the-puzzler.com taken off from the external links? It relates to the material on this website. Half the external links don't even provide the correct information for this site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashesnz (talk • contribs) 25 June 2008
:(I moved your comment to the end as it is easier to follow talk pages if new points are started here.)
:I removed the link, because I looked at the page you linked to and I could not see that it added any information that added to what was already here. So I couldn't see what value it added. See point 1 at  WP:ELNO. If you think there is some other page at the-puzzler.com that meet the criteria at WP:EL, feel free to add a link to it. It will help if you include an edit summary explaining your choice. Grafen (talk) 11:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Link to the-puzzler.com

message: I write as the 'manager' of one of the two blogs (communities, strictly) whose links were removed a month or two ago - the "Times for the Times" one about (London) Times puzzles.  I write about 20% of the material on the community and contribute comments on most days, and as I'm a two-time winner of the Times Crossword Championship, I might count as a "recognised authority".  A few setters of the Times crossword also contribute via comments, and some of the other people who write about the puzzles have competed in the championship final, which makes them very proficient solvers, certainly as far as speed goes.  The other community, "fifteensquared", can't be measured in quite the same terms as few of the puzzles covered have any competitive element.  But the contributors are of a similar standard, and again, some setters of the puzzles concerned contribute.
So my (arguably biased) view is that links to these communities merit inclusion on the "recognised authority" principle.  In practical terms, they've been recognised as a very useful resource by both setters and new solvers because they provide the "why is this the answer" information that the newspaper solution grids don't.
In support of my view, when Don Manley's "Chambers Crossword Manual" book was adapted for a free version supplied with the Independent on  Sunday newspaper, he added the two blogs to the book's list of useful internet resources.  I believe Tim Moorey's forthcoming book on solving the Times puzzle will mention at least one of them too.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterBiddlecombe (talk • contribs) 11:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment about removed blog links

message: If anyone knows when the Laws/Moorey/Feetenby trumvirate started, the text that says "for the last 10 years" should really be amended to "since 19xx".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterBiddlecombe (talk • contribs) 11:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sunday Times - Mephisto

message: I made some changes this morning and all of them seem to have been marked "citation needed".  The previous bald assertions such as the Times puzzle being the hardest were not marked "citation needed".  If this marker is appropriate for this new material, it's probably also appropriate for dozens of sentences in this article - which already has a "no sources quoted" comment covering the whole article.
Final Q from a hacked-off contributor: what do you want here: information that's closer to the truth than what you had before, or nothing because I need to find citations?  There is no annual survey of crossword difficulty - just the impression of various people.  So you get an opinion - from someone who has tackled hundreds of puzzles from the three newspapers mentioned, and has heavy involvement in daily solving blogs relating to all five broadsheet puzzles.  This is as good as you're going to get!
PeterBiddlecombe (talk) 18:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: What needs citations?

message: Historically there used to be much discussion about the difference between The Guardian style crosswords and The Times.  Many years ago a set of Zimmian rules were proposed for cryptic crosswords.  This area merits at least a mention if not full discussion.
Tredigar (talk) 15:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you maybe mean "Ximenean"? In which case, the issue is indeed already mentioned briefly in the article. Barnabypage (talk) 20:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Zimmian discussion??

message: The "!" clues in the article seem to have a different style than what I often see in my newspaper; in these examples, the whole thing is the definition, and the whole thing is the cryptic wordplay definition. However, the ones in my newspaper usually do have the whole clue as a definition, but can also be split up into a wordplay + definition pair; for example, taken from one of these puzzles:
Sounds absolutely divine! (4)
The answer is HOLY (which sounds "wholly", or absolutely), and divine is the definition, and the whole phrase as an exclamation itself also leads to the answer. However, this clue would work without the exclamation point, which doesn't work with the examples shown in the article. Should this type of example be noted here? Aurora Illumina 15:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hard to tell.  I suppose it depends on how Ximenian the setter is? Huw Powell (talk) 06:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Some setters use that style and some don't. I've heard it called a "semi-&lit". One of my own was "Is Help! nice diversion for them?" (CINEPHILES). I might avoid it if trying particularly hard to create a newspaper-worthy puzzle. With your E8 (presumably RELEASED), I would dispute the definition: "let go" would work, but "let them go" probably not. The "them" is redundant: "let them go" could clue "RELEASED THEM" but not "RELEASED". Equinox (talk) 03:07, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  About "!" clues 

message: Another type of clue I've seen that wasn't mentioned in the article would look something like this: (Example taken from a newspaper puzzle)
One with backbone gets nearly every batter out (10)
The answer is VERTEBRATE, which is almost an anagram of EVERY BATTER, except that the clue gave an extra Y, hence the "nearly" included in the clue. Is this a common type of clue, and should it also be included in the article? Aurora Illumina 22:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another clue type: "Near anagrams" 

message: The Nina seems to be a coming thing, a new development that's becoming more common, and while not essential to solving (one can complete a crossword and be completely unaware of the Nina) it can add a level of enjoyment for the solver.
See "What Is A Nina?".
I'd suggest that the external link above may be sufficient if we decide not to provide a sub-section about Ninas or a mention in the History and Development part.
I'm not sure it's notable enough for its own Wikipedia article but it is being mentioned more often in crossword enthusiasts and setters circles, including as a brief part of a 70 minute video interview with Brian Greer (Virgilius for the Independent) about cryptic crosswords, education, mathematics and socio-politics. He noted that it is a growing development, fairly recently introduced, named after American cariacaturist Al Hirschfeld's habit of including the name of his daughter Nina in his drawings. Matt Groening, I believe, includes his own initials in his drawings of Homer Simpson, too, for example.
In the Wiki article at the moment, Nina is mentioned only in reference to the Independent (British newspaper) where it's quite commonly employed. For example a phrase around the perimeter of the solved grid or through some of the other unchecked letters elsewhere is common, and other ninas or special features include using a double-letter in each answer) and seems to be a bit of a "house style", but it's also being seen more in other newspapers, sometimes with particular setters (e.g. Enigmatist in the Guardian, who sets under the name Nimrod in the Independent has occasionally used put a phrase in the perimeter of his Guardian crosswords, sometimes using slightly crude language, as in Guardian 24635 (Enigmatist)). Other tricks used recently (Guardian or possibly Telegraph Toughie in Oct 2010) include a puzzle where the end of every across clue was the beginning of the next across clue. For setters, sometimes the boundary conditions they set with a Nina or a Themed Crossword pose a more interesting problem and produce a more entertaining, challenging or varied crossword. Conversely, sometimes for solvers, spotting a Nina or Theme can help solvers to guess answers or unchecked letters that are proving tough to decode and can add to the enjoyment.
Dynamicimanyd (talk) 12:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nina - further links & possible further mention 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Another clue type is the hidden word, where a word is hidden in the clue. Vorbee (talk) 15:09, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Another clue type

message: The words ‘Cockney’, ‘East End’, ‘Bow’ and a few others normally indicate the need to delete an ‘h’ (eg. ‘hand’ becomes ‘and’), occasionally turn a ‘th’ into an ‘f’ (‘thought’ becomes ‘fought’) and less often it’s an indicator for Cockney rhyming slang (‘Cockney stairs’ = ‘apples’ or ‘Cockney apples’ = ‘stairs’ for example). This might be worth adding into the article. I completely agree with Peter Biddlecombe that it’s ludicrous that Times for the Times and Fifteensquared aren’t allowed to be linked to this article by the way, for what it’s worth Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:01, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Cockney

message: This article is mostly useful to people already familiar with the contents. Many words might be replaced by diagrams and graphic examples. Nat (talk) 07:44, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: What kinds of diagrams would you like to see here? Umimmak (talk) 00:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need for illustrative diagrams