Talk:White Buses

message: Since Zvi Zameret specialises in the history of education and Ofer Regev is a writer of popular books, not much can be expected from there.  As for Baruch Nadel, he was one of Bernadotte's murderers and using him as a source on anything except the murder would be an obscenity.  However, leaving all that aside, there is of course an existing set of charges against Bernadotte that should be mentioned.  They come from two sources:
# Felix Kersten played a significant role in convincing Himmler to release the prisoners.  However, when Bernadotte published his own story in 1945, he didn't mention Kersten at all.  This naturally infuriated Kersten, but his justified anger went too far and his revenge even including forging documents to implicate Bernadotte.  The most infamous document was proven fake by the Holocaust historian Gerald Fleming.  Unfortunately Kersten's lies fooled Trevor-Roper who repeated Kersten's charges.  However, in the 1980s Trevor-Roper eventually admitted that his work had been based on dubious sources.
# After Bernadotte was made UN Mediator in Palestine, and especially after his murder, the Zionist right wing had an obvious motive for vindicating his murder.  This motivation continues and is the main reason these charges against Bernadotte continue to be raised.
I don't have time at the moment to edit the article, but I'll copy some extracts from Sune Persson, Folke Bernadotte and the White Buses, J. Holocaust Education, Vol 9, Iss 2-3, 2000, 237-268.  Also published in David Cesarani and Paul A. Levine (eds.), Bystanders to the Holocaust: A Re-evaluation (Routledge, 2002).  This is the most detailed academic source I can find that is based on primary documents.
: [In summary] The accusations against Count Bernadotte, levelled by such men as Kersten, Trevor-Roper and Lindquist, to the effect that he refused to save Jews from the concentration camps are obvious lies. This was clearly stated by Erik Boheman, Under-Secretary at the Swedish Foreign Ministry in 1945; Torsten Brandel and Lennart Nylander, the two Secretaries at the Swedish legation in Berlin who worked with Bernadotte in 1945; Hans Arnoldson, the Chief Medical Doctor assigned to the white buses; Sverker Astrom, the sole official at the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1945 who is still alive; Hillel Storch, the WJC [World Jewish Congress] representative in Stockholm in 1945; Hans Cappelan, Chairman of the Norwegian Association of War Prisoners; and Iens Elliot Nyegard, Director of the Danish FRSA. (Persson, p264)
: Trevor-Roper's article and foreword are remarkable documents since this world-renowned historian uses almost no Swedish sources, has complete confidence in the account given by Kersten (Himmler's personal doctor!), and includes documents which have been subsequently proven to be falsifications, and were most probably fabricated by Kersten himself. (Persson, p249)
Persson spells out all the evidence in detail and also provides quite a lot of evidence of Bernadotte's positive attitude towards Jews.  For example:
: Significantly, in 1944 Bernadotte gave Storch [Stockholm representative of the World Jewish Congress] and the WJC permission to use the Swedish Red Cross as a cover for the sending of food parcels to Jews in Nazi concentration camps. The Swedish Red Cross then put a truck loaded with Red Cross materials (including letters, forms and labels) at the WJC's disposal. According to Storch, 'Bernadotte was very favourably disposed to the cause of the Jews.' Storch, in fact, saw himself as the initiator of the entire Swedish rescue operation. (Persson, p251)
And again:
: [Captain Harald Falke, the leader of the Theresienstadt expedition] wrote that it was Bernadotte himself who conceived the entire plan to remove the Scandinavian Jews from Theresienstadt, that Bernadotte's order was to begin the operation 'at once'" (Persson, p260)
Other good sources are A. Ilan, Bernadotte in Palestine, 1948, and R. Palmer, Felix Kersten and Count Bernadotte: A Question of Rescue, Journal of Contemporary History, 29: 1 (1994:Jan.) 39-51.  Palmer is quite sympathetic towards Kersten, but writes:
: Bernadotte's jealousy of Kersten's accomplishments led to Kersten's manufacturing documents to support his claims. (p48)
--Zerotalk 12:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The evidence, really

message: I'll read through your scholary analysis and maybe we will quote you too - have you written books so far ? As for now, we'll stick with wikipedia policy, and cite WP:RS like Regev. Amoruso 15:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like user Zero have some useful information regarding that Bernadotte supposedly denied jews access to "the white buses". Since you have not provided any sources that are accepted I believe it is prudent of us to remove your allegations from the article. Ulflarsen 17:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think there's something you fail to understand. Saying "seems to have an an axe to grind with bernadotte" or attacking credibility is your WP:OR which is fabricated by Zero0000. Sourced material can not be blanked out just because someone doesn't like it. You can contradict it but you can't blank it out. There's no problem to include Zero's quotations as well on the issue.  The problem is when he starts vandalising the page enforcing his own WP:POV. Both opinions can be heard, also Kersten and the allegations that he fabricated documents and so on. All this should be addressed. He can't decide for the reader, which is what he consistently did. Amoruso 04:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Can someone give a full citation for Regev's book? Perhaps it's the one that's reviewed on ? If so, I'd hardly call the book a "reliable source".... --Alvestrand 12:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  When I have the time 

message: This article has lots of contents, but it needs copyediting for style; but also a better structure and some refinement on some of the tricky issues. I think we also need far more inline references.
As far as the controversies go, I think there is a bit more clarity as to their nature and scope, but we'll get to that as we go through this. --Leifern (talk) 20:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Did some work on the basic grammar and style, hopefully reads a little more smoothly now. Can't help much with the rest, sorry. Beccaviola (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

text: Probably the Swedish term than translates to extradition ("utlämning") can be used in this case as well when you write in Swedish. I tried "repatriation" instead - does that sound better? Tomas e (talk) 15:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

message: Is it a place, a group of people or something else? The term is introduced without any explanation.93.97.194.138 (talk) 05:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added a inline citation that should cast light on what Gross Kreutz was. Ulflarsen (talk) 17:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who, what or where is "Gross Kreutz?" 

message: I think the article should include 1) information on the murder of Bernadotte (at the very least a mention of it) and 2) an explanation of why the RAF bombed refugee convoys.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.157.128.95 (talk) 07:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The murder of Bernadotte happened several years later and was not connected to this operation, it is also well covered already so I see no need to insert it into this article. Why the convoy's was bombed must be answered by the allies, what is certain is that they were, in spite of being clearly marked as no combattants (buses painted white etc). Ulflarsen (talk) 18:04, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two requests 

message: I will try to add references as needed, but it would be good if someone could help, that is adding reference needed where they should be added. Also please keep in mind that the references has to be translated from Swedish and Norwegian, so it a bit of work, try to ask for the one's that are really needed. Ulflarsen (talk) 19:24, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help with references 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: It should be made clear that the purpose was to rescue the inmates from the Soviets, not from the Germans, who co-operated with the mission.Royalcourtier (talk) 07:53, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll need to provide a very good source for that. Zerotalk 11:15, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Purpose of rescue 

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