Talk:Bobby Fischer/Archive 1

message: A $1m purse in 1992 is inconsistent with the following paragraph that states that Fischer took a $3.3m prize. I've changed it from $1m to $5m as that seems to be correct based on a few searches (and references at the bottom of the article.) I am in no way an expert; if someone knows better, feel free to improve (and explain!) Blorg 14:53, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The total prize fund was $5m, of which Fischer, as the winner, was due $3.35m, the remainder going to Spassky (see, for example, Davies, Pein and Levitt, Bobby Fischer: The $5,000,000 Comeback). I believe there is some question-mark over whether either player actually received this amount, however--somebody might want to look into that. --Camembert 20:44, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  1992 Purse 

message: I am removing this artice from the Jewish chess players category. Fischer denies being Jewish and given the subjectivity of such ethnic assignments I think it's best that Wikipedia stay out of it. --Malathion 28 June 2005 09:28 (UTC)
:Fischer does deny being Jewish, but this doesn't change the fact.  See Jew for a discussion of how the term Jewish is commonly applied.  Quale 28 June 2005 15:10 (UTC)
::In modern usage, Jews include both those Jews actively practicing Judaism, and those Jews who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jews by virtue of their family's Jewish heritage and their own cultural identification. I don't see which of these definitions matches Fischer. --Malathion 29 June 2005 01:25 (UTC)
:::You skipped the very first line of the article:  "The word Jew (Hebrew: יהודי) is used in a wide number of ways, but generally refers to a follower of the Jewish faith, a child of a Jewish mother, or someone of Jewish descent with a connection to Jewish culture or ethnicity and often a combination of these attributes."  Fischer's mother was Jewish, and the man likely to have been his biological father was Jewish too. There are many, many references that identify Fischer as ethnically Jewish, so unless you can find convincing references that say he's not Jewish, that claim is original research.  You should note that he is correctly listed in List of Jews#Chess Players as well. Quale 5 July 2005 16:25 (UTC)
::::The Jew article is my reference. Given that we have a huge article dedciated to the controversy surrounding Who is a Jew? which reaches no concrete conclusion and Fischer still disputes it, it seems that characterizing him as a Jew would be arbitrarily accepting one definition of "Jew" over another.
::::Thanks for pointing out List of Jews#Chess Players. I'm removing him now. --Malathion 5 July 2005 21:34 (UTC)
::::After looking at that article again, I think it's fine to have him on it since it seems to include anyone who could be considered Jewish by any conceivable definition. I'm still opposed to putting the category in this article, though I think it might be a good idea to mention the controversy somewhere in the article. --Malathion 5 July 2005 21:42 (UTC)
:::::Fischer doesn't even (consistently) deny being Jewish -- he describes himself as "Part Jewish. My mother is Jewish." in the 1962 Ginzburg interview. I think it is reasonable to include in him in the category if according to some definitions he is Jewish. But in any case, I agree Fischer's complex relationship with Judaism is worth discussing in the article. Neilc 6 July 2005 00:58 (UTC)
::::::As far as I can tell, he hasn't always denied it, but he does now. You point is taken though. After further deliberation I think it would be okay to have the category as long as the body mentions that he vehemently denies being Jewish. --Malathion 6 July 2005 01:35 (UTC)
Interesting to note that Boris Spassky is also partly of Jewish ancestry ("mother Jewish") according to List of Jews#Chess Players, and is also an anti-Semite like Fischer. --billbrock
I previously put in a link to Who is a Jew? which I think is an acceptable compromise. If you read that link, you will see that some Jewish groups say, "Even those descendants who are not aware they are Jews, or practice a faith other than Judaism, are technically still Jews, as long as they come from an unbroken female line of descent". Therefore, since whether Fischer is a Jew is open to debate, the link should remain, and I have reverted its removal. Rocksong 02:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that this is not a good idea: 1) The chapter is about his antisemitic views, not about his ethnicity. 2) The wording is IMHO far from perfect; why he "should be" considered to be Jewish himself? - the theory which is described in the article Who is a Jew? is a Jewish/Sionist ideology, not relevant for most of the world population - allow me to think that Jews are simply those claiming to be Jews, please, just like with all other groups.--Ioannes Pragensis 11:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree on (1) that the link is in the wrong chapter. It belongs in the early chapter where his Jewish background is mentioned. On (2): the article Who is a Jew?, while far from perfectly written, does present more than one view. There are some people who would regard Fischer to be a Jew - in fact, his type of situation is one of the 3 contentious areas discussed - so the question isn't settled 100%, so the Fischer article shouldn't say that it is. I've no problem with rewording it to suggest he is not a Jew, e.g. to say something like, "Most people would not consider Fischer to be Jewish because he has renounced the Jewish religion - see Who is a Jew?". However I think it is important to link to the article for people to read and decide. Rocksong 13:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, let us have the link in a more appropriate part of the article (or in External links) and please reword it. I would only not use the phrase "most people" because we do not have a survey of the world population about the views of the majority in this issue. Greetings,--Ioannes Pragensis 07:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fischer Jewish? 

message: I could have sworn that I saw him today at Dartmouth College. Is he even able to come to the U.S.? I must have been mistaken, because the article seems to imply that he has vowed not to visit the US until Bush leaves office. savidan(talk) (e@) 05:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Pictures? Piepants 01:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. It was just a physics professor who looks exaclty like him. savidan(talk) (e@) 16:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can he leave Icleand? 

message: JzG has deleted the link press.com/fischer1.htm Bobby Fischer Interview, claiming it is a copyright violation. I have concerns about doing this, on a number of fronts. First, is a transcript of a radio interview a copyright violation in the first place? Second, if a radio broadcast is ordinarily copyright, does this change in the case of an interview with a famous person? i.e. the interview is an insight into Fischer's views. IMHO, they are statements on the public record which deserve to be preserved. Third, even if they are copyright violation, is there anything in Wikipedia policy to prevent linking to copyrighted material anyway? Unless I can be convinced there really is a copyright problem there, I say we should restore that link. Rocksong 01:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No arguments, so I'm restoring it. Rocksong 01:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: JvG still says it's a copyright violation. OK, I agree that we shouldn't link to copyright violations, but I don't believe the transcript it is a copyright violation in the first place. The mp3s of this and other Fischer interviews already exist on the web at Fischer's web site (table just over halfway down). So since they've already consented to Fischer having the recordings, I don't think a transcript is violating the radio station's copyright. Nor do I see how it violates Fischer's copyright. On the positive, it is a transcript of a conversation by a public figure, for people who can't or don't want to listen to the entire mp3. So please explain why it's a copyright violation, or stop deleting the link. Rocksong 01:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright in Links? 

message: The article begins:
:Robert James "Bobby" Fischer (born March 9, 1943) is a grandmaster and former world chess champion, who on September 1, 1972, became the first and only American chess player to win the World Chess Championship.
This is incorrect.  William (nee Wilhelm) Steinitz became a U.S. citizen in 1888, after both his matches with Zuckertort (1872 and 1886; it is still disputed which one made him "World Champion") and before his matches with Chigorin, Gunsberg and Lasker.  The second match with Zuckertort was played in the USA.  While one might quibble that Steinitz did not first "win the championship" as an American, I am adjusting the opening to "American-born".  -Wfaxon 19:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  No, not the first U.S. World Chess Champion 

message: Viz. the 1972 match vs. Spassky; "81.157.230.213" added:
:The gamesmanship which many considered unsporting was overlooked in general in the United States.
While some may still see Fischer's behavior as gamesmanship, subsequent events have borne out the contemporary opinion by many that explained it in terms of a (reasonably justified) inflated ego combined with a near-crippling fear of defeat and incipient paranoia.  Or you could just say he was immature.  I don't know of any acquaintances of Fischer who ascribe to him any capacity for "gamesmanship". --Wfaxon 03:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When I first saw that sentence appear I too was uncomfortable with it. Delete it I say. Rocksong 03:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gamesmanship 

message: Fischer claims that he never called jews 'niggers'. Instead he merely called them 'murderers'. I have listened to the radio interview and it's a bad line but I certainly can't hear the word niggers. Can you hear it? listen from aboout 18:00 on I will change the quote in the article. Curtains99 02:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  anti-semitism section 

message: This encyclopedia article needs to focus more on Fischer the chess player, because chess is what Fischer is best known for.  For example, the encyclopedia article about Paul Morphy focuses on his chess career first, his eccentricities later on.AaronCBurke 17:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  metacommentary (moved from top of talk page) 

message: I consider terming Fischer´s rational and coherent, yet a bit hypomaniac, statements, as "hatred speech" is vague and obviously judgy from a non NPOV.
I emphasized the meaning of his words, and then quoted them plainly, without criticism of his style.
I don´t think the point he used profane language is important here. Again trying to debase him on aesthetical considerations seems non NPOV.
Drcaldev 19:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hatred speech" 

message: This article is all over the place.  Not enough emphasis on chess career; little coherence. Frequent attacks by antisemites trying to paper over RJF's recent statements; unclear how much weight should be given those stmts (cf. John Forbes Nash). Billbrock 06:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved comment from Talk:Bobby Fischer/Comments 

message: Is there really no better picture of him? The one up is retarded. 67.126.143.170 (talk) 23:26, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: YOUR retarded  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.142.53 (talk) 09:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: The article previously stated that a dispute over it between Fischers wife and daughter had been solved amicably but that was false information and untrue, the truth of the matter is that there is little information about the current status of the ongoing dispute over Fischers state, a news story appeared stating that the supreme court had sent the case back to a lower court level but it only mentioned a dispute between Fischers American nephews and his alleged wife it was dated sometime in june, another article from may says that four parties have made claims to Fischers estate, his alleged wife, his alleged daughter, his nephews and the US government. I provided two links to news stories in icelandic on the icelandic states channels website regarding the matter but it looks like it's currently still pending.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.144.74.14 (talk) 11:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fischers estate 

message: The many comments about the missing picture shouldn't have all been archived. Therefore I will add a small sentence at the start of this discussion page. 
Though overall I wonder if Fischer himself would have liked to have an image of him in this article, or if he would have liked to have an article about him at all. What do you think?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.106.21 (talk) 00:55, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do you think, Fischer would have liked this article to have a free image of him? 

message: Is there really no good Fischer picture available to use it in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.106.21 (talk • contribs) .
26.02.09 Great to see there is a picture now. Greetings from Germany! 82.113.106.23 (talk) 15:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This has been a recurring headache for a year or two.  I'm working on an angle that might get one that is barely acceptable, and better than the one of him a a kid.  Bubba73 (talk), 01:08, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  What is the big problem with getting a picture? GBizzle (talk) 11:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  First let me say that the one I thought I might could get hasn't panned out.  To answer your question, almost all of the photos of Fischer are copyrighted.  We can use a copyrighted photo in some cases if there is no free image available.  But the bad photo of him as a kid with Jack Colins is available for free, so that thwarts the rationale for using a copyrighted one. Bubba73 (talk), 15:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks like someone finally found a good picture of Fischer under a Wikipedia-compatible license.  Hopefully this resolves this issue once and for all. Just to clarify (talk) 19:54, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yea, great.  I think this one will pass the test. Bubba73 (talk), 20:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Thank goodness for that. Finally! Great news.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

text: Big improvement.  Thanks.  Billbrock (talk) 23:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like this picture came from a contribution the German government has made to the Wikipedia; more information is here Just to clarify (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo, again 

message: Bobby was NOT anti american. He percieved america to be a Zionist occupied nation and ergo he hated america. It would be better to say he was anti ZOG rather than anti american.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.87.201 (talk) 00:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti american? 

message: I don't think this is a great fit in the lead. Thoughts? Privatemusings (talk) 03:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not? One major point in his life was his move to Iceland, and he did gain Icelandic citizenship. Malinaccier (talk) 16:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

text: It's better than it was before, when it said he was "an American and Icelandic chess grandmaster". This wording is more accurate, reflecting that it was very late in life.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Icelandic 

message: A while ago I made the following edits:  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bobby_Fischer&diff=268324019&oldid=268268340
Jinky Ongs paternity is highly disputed and so far remains unproven.
The dispute is currently unsettled and may involve claims from four parties, Fischer's presumed daugther, Fischer's presumed wife, two of Fischer's American nephews and the American government due to unpaid taxes. 
All of this is very true and the links are from a trusted source the national television channel of Iceland. Content in foreign languages can be used if english versions can not be found is what the wikipedia guidelines say so the fact that some of you may not be able to read Icelandic has nothing to do with the matter.
Another problem with the article is the claim that Fischer is burried in the cemetary of a catholic church, the church in question is not mentiond on Icelands catholic church's website but it is however mentioned on Icelands Evangelic Lutherian churches website http://kirkjan.is/soknir/TC1 . I'd go ahead and put these facts straight in the article but it seems to me like some people like the revert button a bit too much so feel free and comment on these suggested edits before I make them, otherwise they'll go up in a day or two by my doing.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 20:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with the article and solutions 

message: The web reference for #154 is wrong.
It should be http://db.chessmetrics.com/PL/PL10986.htm
I didn't know how to change it so I stuck the request here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by OppieT30 (talk • contribs) 00:21, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Web reference 

message: The lede is wrong.  "In 1972, he became the first, and so far the only, American to win the official World Chess Championship."  I think it was cast this way to emphasize the Cold War angle.  
Agreed that Morphy (acclaimed, not official WC) doesn't count.  But both Steinitz and Capablanca were official American world champions.  Only Steinitz was a U.S. citizen, of course.  Readers of New Ideas in Chess may recall Réti's essay about "Americanism" in chess re Capa....  The adjective has more than one meaning, of course, but it's desirable to minimize the US-centrism in WP.  Billbrock (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: What year did Steinitz become a US citizen, and was it after he was world champion?  Bubba73 (talk), 00:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Steinitz became a U.S. citizen in 1888 & subsequently defended the title successfully against Gunsberg & Tchigorin.  Billbrock (talk) 00:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  OK, was still WC until 1894.  Bubba73 (talk), 00:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

text:  I'd phrase it as Fischer was the first person born in the US to become the official W.C.  The others all have qualifiers - Morphy was not official, Steinitz became WC before he became a US citizen, Capa was North American but not a US citizen.  Bubba73 (talk), 01:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps better to recast to tone down US exceptionalism (and RJF exceptionalism for that matter).  As currently cast, the awkward & not quite correct Steinitz footnote might also note that the gap between Morphy & contemporaries was similar to that between Fischer 1970-71 & contemporaries.  Incidentally, why do we (I am a US citizen) care whether RJF was first US World Champ?  Has something to do with US intellectual insecurity w/r/t European culture: cf. Emerson's The American Scholar.  The cult of Soviet chess stemmed from similar insecurities.  70.228.36.206 (talk) 16:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess what is perhaps more significant is not that he was the first American but that he was the first non-Soviet since before WWII to win the world championship. The fact that he was an American, at the height of the Cold War ere, just gave it added spice.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:27, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: No argument there.  The lede remains factually incorrect.  Billbrock (talk) 16:01, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fischer as *third* American world champion 

message: This newest edit made to the article 1 indicates that a record Fishcer had has fallen but I don't think it's really apropriate to mention in the article who broke it, I would however think that it would be appropriate to mention how long it stood "more than a decade" "more than half a decade" "three years" whatever something cool but I am running into this problem I took a look at the article of that Nicholas Nip and it seems that whatever record he is supposed to have broken was already broken by Vinay Bhat and then the question becomes what records was that exactly, this article refers to "youngest-ever junior champion" but the Bhat article refers to "youngest national master" and I took a look at those sites and well I couldn't read much into them so the question is, has a record that Fischer held been broken? Is it the record that this article refers to? And how long did it stand? If someone could confidently answer those questions then that would just be great.
The other matter is my own edit a while ago right here while this is all factually correct and according to verifiable sources I do believe that it might be possible to phrase those sentences somewhat better and if anyone could help me out with that I'd appreciate that greatly.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 19:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Also I'd like to ask other editors if they think that this edit shouldn't be reverted or somehow adjusted.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 11:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted it. The material doesn't seem to be of great importance, and the presence of a youtube link is both a potential copyright violation and an indicator that the material's only been added to generate hits.  SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 18:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  I'd appreciate some help