Talk:Magdalen College, Oxford

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I have just modified 6 external links on Magdalen College, Oxford. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130902104027/http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate_courses/applying_to_oxford/choral_organ/choral.html to http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate_courses/applying_to_oxford/choral_organ/choral.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130423132522/http://www.music.ox.ac.uk/admissions/organ-and-choral-scholarships1/Organandchoralscholarships-main-page.html to http://www.music.ox.ac.uk/admissions/organ-and-choral-scholarships1/Organandchoralscholarships-main-page.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120823094744/http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/nested_content/listings/home_-_news/news/magdalen-top-of-the-2012-norrington-table to http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/nested_content/listings/home_-_news/news/magdalen-top-of-the-2012-norrington-table
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120823111640/http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/nested_content/listings/archived-news/events/magdalen-top-of-norrington-table to http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/nested_content/listings/archived-news/events/magdalen-top-of-norrington-table
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110424040443/http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/nested_content/listings/home_-_events/events/magdalen-wins-university-challenge-for-a-record-fourth-time to http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/nested_content/listings/home_-_events/events/magdalen-wins-university-challenge-for-a-record-fourth-time
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140407095245/http://magdjcr.co.uk/entz to http://magdjcr.co.uk/entz
*Added  tag to http://magdjcr.co.uk/sports
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Thanks for expanding the article. I have tried to clarify the references to Magdalen Hall in the St. Swithun's quad section in line with the reference to Magdalen College's website. Let me know if you disagree with any of my changes. TSventon (talk) 12:24, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for the correction; how confusing that there should have been two Magdalen Halls as well as a Magdalen College in the same place...! --JCrue (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have changed the date of foundation to around 1490 in line with Brockliss (the Magdalen reference doesn't give a date). I can't see 1487 in the references. Magdalen Hall seems to have used 1487 as a foundation date but that was in the nineteenth century and I think Brockliss' approximate date makes more sense. (By the way, I tried to tidy up Wikipedia's mentions of Magdalen Hall last year, hence my detailed interest now.) TSventon (talk) 13:24, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  1487 came from the BHO reference, which notes Magdalen Hall "may have been in existence by 1487" citing W. D. Macray's Register of Magdalen College, Oxford (1894–1915). Perhaps "by the 1490s" might be a way to hedge both references? --JCrue (talk) 18:11, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I would prefer to use Brockliss rather than BHO/ Macray as Brockliss is much more recent (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters). (There is more guidance on conflicting sources at Wikipedia:These_are_not_original_research#Conflict_between_sources.) The Oxford University Calendar for 1863 (page 297) says "The School with the Refectory and Chambers, erected by Bishop Waynflete for Students previous to admission to his College, obtained the appellation of St. Mary Magdalen Hall as early as 1487, and was governed by one of the Fellows until 1602, when it became an independent Hall", which suggests that early sources don't always distinguish between Magdalen College School and Magdalen Hall.  TSventon (talk) 12:40, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

text: Interestingly the Oxford University Calendar for 1819 (page 261) conflates the two Magdalen Halls: "This Hall, adjoining Magdalen College, was originally built around 1353, and it is supposed that the first President and Fellows of the College were transplanted from it. Bishop Waynfleet, in 1480, having re-established and augmented it, converted it into a dwelling for Students, preparatory to their admission into his then recently founded College." TSventon (talk) 12:52, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

text: I have started another thread at Talk:Hertford_College,_Oxford#Magdalen_Hall as that article seems to be inconsistent at the moment. TSventon (talk) 15:33, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, using Brockliss' date makes sense. Thank you for all the double-checking you've been doing! --JCrue (talk) 22:24, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I reverted your edit linking Magdalen Hall (1448) to Hertford College as the ancestor of Hertford was the second Magdalen Hall (c. 1490). I think this is explained in this article, but reply here if you think the explanation should be improved further. TSventon (talk) 12:56, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Magdalen Hall 

message: This section is now longer than the equivalent sections in Jesus College, Oxford (good article) and Oriel College, Oxford (featured article). It might be worth creating something like List of Fellows of Magdalen College, Oxford if you have more content to add. TSventon (talk) 15:10, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: and a photo of Katie Mitchell next to Oscar Wilde - I wonder who put that there?? Andrew ranfurly (talk) 22:38, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable members 

message: Hi, thanks for contributing to this article. You added a section on pronunciation as follows:
:Pronunciation of "Magdalen"
:"Magdalen" is pronounced like the adjective "maudlin", with both the adjective and the college name alluding to Mary Magdalene.
I removed the section you added on the pronunciation of Magdalen for a couple of reasons. 
I agree it's relevant to include pronunciation guidance for "Magdalen", as it is not obvious from the spelling. Following the wikipedia manual of style for pronunciation, the pronunciation is given in IPA and respelling in the lede section.
:Magdalen College ( ) is a constituent college of the University of Oxford.
In your edit summary reverting my changes, you said that you considered that "maudlin" the adjective was derived from "Magdalen" to be of linguistic interest. That may be of relevance to the article on Mary Magdalene—where it is mentioned, in connection to the depictions of Mary Magdalene in tears in art—but as "maudlin" isn't derived from "Magdalen College", the connection here is several times removed. That's why I don't think it is relevant on this page in particular (what I meant by "trivia[l]"). 
My justification for removing that section then was that the pertinent information regarding pronunciation is already covered per the MOS (in the lede), and the additional information (about words derived from Mary Magdalene) is not relevant to this college. Please let me know if you still disagree with this and your reasoning. Best wishes --JCrue (talk) 20:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it could be useful to have a sentence explaining that the Middle English pronunciation of the Magdalen (and hence Magdalen College) is derived from the Old French Madeleine and then from Church Latin Magdalena, which is explained in the Oxford Learners Dictionaries reference. It could possibly go at the end of the foundation subsection of the history section (which I have just added). TSventon (talk) 13:01, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

text: Hi guys, great discussion and all interesting points. I see your point, JCrue, that the linguistic connection is indirect and perhaps does not warrant its own section in such a prominent position of the page. At the same time, I feel it's not irrelevant -- the pronunciation becomes more meaningful when given with context, rather than just the dry syllabic rendition at top. I like TSventon's idea of folding it into a general subsection about foundation. Thanks again for your thoughts. Zedembee (talk) 23:34, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

text: I have added a more informative sentence about pronunciation, do improve it if you can. TSventon (talk) 01:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I see your points and I agree that 's idea looks like a good compromise :-). --JCrue (talk) 09:59, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation