Talk:Winnemucca (Paiute leader)

message: Father & son are conflated into one.  I plan to fix this, with references. Duff (talk) 02:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: All reety, there's a start.  Needs more references; needs sections, needs a See Also section; needs wikifixes; needs ref formatting fixes...lots of dots; needs consensus on the use of a single(?) name for the main person, and very careful redirects for the rest;  I like Bad Face, but Poito is shorter and the Old/Young Winnemucca thing is just too confusing.  What's the standard treatment?  Also, anybody got Bad Face/Poito's mother & father's names?:  NOT the Wife/Wives of his father-in-law, Old Winnemucca/Truckee (though that would be good too).  The Old Winnemucca article @ Truckee (chief) needs a similar expansion, thinkthrough, and treatment. There's a really good reference for Sarah Winnemucca on that Stewart ref. HELP!  =P  Duff (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Winnemucca and Poito

message: This bit: "By 1874, "Winnemucca, the Chief of the Paiutes", eight braves, Sarah, and another of his daughters would grace the stage of the Metropolitan Theater"  has a problem.  the daughter referred to was Sarah's sister (Poito Bad Face's daughter), need her name.  Also, was she performing with her grandfather or her father-in-law?  I'm not clear on that, but since grandpa took the bunch of Bad Face/Poito's kids (not all) and educated his grandchildren in California schools(need to get that in there too), I think she may have been performing with Grandpa, and it needs clarification. Duff (talk) 21:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Old Winnemucca [[Truckee (chief)]] or Winnemucca the Younger/Bad Face/Poito?

message: ::Also, pretty important, I'm fairly certain that this photo is of Truckee/Old Chief Winnemucca, wearing his customary diplomacy costume, a military uniform (which military, dunno, he apparently came back to Oregon wearing the uniform of a Spanish Don once), and NOT of Winnemucca the Younger/Poito/Bad Face///...who would likely not have been caught dead in a uniform, dead set against Old Winnemucca's approach to peace with the white man.  Truckee is an even more interesting character. Duff (talk) 21:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo of Old Winnemucca [[Truckee (chief)]] or Winnemucca the Younger/Bad Face/Poito?

message: Both stink.  http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/indianchiefs/winnemucca.htm is a genealogy research story page showing its source as Famous Indian Chiefs I have Known, by Major-General O.O. Howard, US Army, 1908.  Doesn't say if from a letter, a book, or what but reads poorly and contains biased & incorrect historical account.  The other link is broken,  I'm removing that. The article needs sourcing. Duff (talk) 02:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: External Links

message: Why does it suddenly switch from 'Winnemucca' to 'Bad Face' in the middle of the article? It's especially jarring since the origin of the name Bad Face is never explained. Kaldari (talk) 04:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: What is the meaning of the name "Winnemucca"?  
The article says "The Giver of Spiritual Gifts." and cites "Ontko, Gale. Thunder Over the Ochoco, Volume I: The Gathering Storm. Bend, OR: Maverick Publications, Inc., 1997."  The edit for that change was made in 2010.  A 2013 RGJ article includes "the giver of spiritual gifts" but also includes the one moccasin story.  As the 2013 article was written after the 2010 edit to the WP article, that suggests that the 2013 article might be using WP as a source.  Newspapers.com has no other relevant hits for this phrase.  I found no sources other that Ontko (1997) for "The Giver of Spiritual Gifts" that predate the 2010 WP change.  I don't have a copy of this book, does anyone have a copy?  The edit was made by  who has not been active recently.
The 1941 "Origin of Nevada Place Names" states "The name, according to a student of Indian life, means "Place by the River" and was often given to chiefs who usually lived at least part of the year at Great Bend." Source:   Which cites "John T. Reid, Mining Engineer, Lovelock NV."  Newspapers.com finds nothing for this phrase.  Google finds various hits for '"Place by the River" winnemucca' including a 2011 paper  In 1913, Davis wrote that Winnemucca means "Place by the river", see "History of Nevada," p. 912, 1913.
Unfortunately, Helen Carlson's "Nevada Place Names" is no longer searchable on GBooks, but her 1959 Ph.D. thesis "Nevada Place Names: Origin and Meaning" is available and it states that meanings include "place by the river,"(source:  SPD (Davis), p. 912) "chief,"(source: FES (Shearer), p.207 However, Carson writes "p. 191"?)  "one moccasin,"(source: NHS 1922 p. 16) (from wanna mooka), "bread giver,"(source:  HHB (Bancroft), Nev., p. 208. Carson writes "p 2222 n. 28"?),  and "the charitable man."(source: History of the big bonanza 1877, p.271, Wright, William. Carson writes "DDQ p. 203" for the 1953 edition).  Carlson states that Simpson "said the chief of the Paiutes was Wam-muc-ca (The Giver) and spelled the name of Numaga, the younger, Won-amuc-a (JHS, pp 37, 94)".  JHS is "Simpson, J. H. Report of Explorations across the Great Basin of the Territory of Utah for Direct Wagon Route from Camp Floyd to Genoa, in Carson Valley, in 1859, p. 37" Hodge agrees that Chief Winnemucca's name meant "The giver" (FWI, p.962). FWH is "Hodge, Frederick Webb (ed.) Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico, vol. 2, p. 962, 1910."  There is a chance that in 1910 Hodge is reporting what Simpson wrote about for the 1859 exploration.
In 1984, Phillip Earl (Nevada State Historian) wrote "The Naming of Winnemucca," part 1, part 2, Mason Valley News (Yerington, Nevada) · 11 May 1984, p. 7,8.  Earl states that origin of the name was likely from when explorers met Old Winnemucca (aka Truckee) and he had one moccasin on to indicate that his heart was not free.  Earl cites a 1887 interview with Lee Winnemucca.  Earl also states that Chief Harry Winnemucca of the Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe says that family tradition states that the moccasin was lost while escaping cavalrymen in the Forty Mile Desert.  Earl goes on to state that "The Giver," "The Bread Giver" and "The Charitable Man"  were applied to Old Winnemucca the person and are not the meaning of the word.
In 1983, Gae Whitney Canfield wrote "Sarah Winnemucca of the Northern Paiutes," and on p. 3 and 17 states that Winnemucca means "The Giver".  On p. 3 they also state that Winnemucca means "One who looks after the Numa" (Numa is an endonym for the Norther Paiute, see Northern Paiute language.)
Given then above, perhaps the article should be updated to something like:
There are several possible interpretations of the meaning of the word "Winnemucca".  A common origin is that explorers met Winnemucca who was wearing one moccasin so they called him "One-a-mau-cau", which became "Winnemucca".(cite Earl as above)  Later in life the phrases "The Giver,"(cite Simpson) "The Bread Giver,"(cite Bancroft) and "The Charitable Man"(cite Wright) were applied to Old Winnemucca.(cite Earl)  Other possible meanings are "The Giver of Spiritual Gifts"(cite Ontko) or "Place by the river"(cite Davis).
Comments?  Cxbrx (talk) 14:10, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of Winnemucca