Talk:Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development

message: "it was shut down by the U.S. government following the discovery that it was funding Hamas."
An Executive Order from George W. Bush alleged that the HLF was funding Hamas. This statement is overly-simplistic and incredibly misleading. I would say "following the allegations that..."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.225.232 (talk) 05:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Putting a citation as, "(CBS News, 4/19/95)" is not a proper citation..... Link it to an article or video clip saying that.
Also, the statement, "It should be noted that Emerson has displayed a consistent anti-Muslim bias in his reporting and his credibility has been called into question on several occasions."
has no citation or reference at all......
The stuff this guy posted is like me saying that Bill Gate's favorite ice cream is chocolate chip cookie dough. (ABC News, 8/4/92)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brisbanerobi (talk • contribs) 22:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The post against Steve Emerson

message: WHAT ties are there between Holy Land and Infocom? WhisperToMe 20:22, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Some are at this link: , and the article now contains some of them.  You can find more with Google searches with the names of both organizations, perhaps also restricting the search to "site:.gov".  (SEWilco 04:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infocom

message: It seems to me that the first sentence or paragraph of this article should make the point that the HLF is a terrorist organization rather than some sort of a charity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.145.195.25 (talk • contribs) 00:44, 31 January 2006
: Done.  You could have edited it.  (SEWilco 05:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Terrorist Organization

message: I would like to see some proof that Holy Land Foundation "is a daughter organization of Islamic Association for Palestine."  I don't think this is correct. It is also quite inflammatory, as exemplified by the comment above about HLF being a "terrorist organization." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.72.52 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 1 May 2006
: As you think association with the IAP is inflammatory, you must think there is something wrong with the IAP.  The HLF has been specifically designated a terrorist organization by the U.S. government, so was the preceding comment inflamed by the IAP?  (SEWilco 05:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Islamic Association for Palestine

message: I'm going to take the tags off in a few days if there is not discusion on this talk page as to specifically what the problems are.Hypnosadist 23:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I took the tags off while you were making that comment.  There are more sources given now.  (SEWilco 05:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Last call on tags

message: A couple of paragraphs from a newspaper article were inserted in December 2006, so I'm reverting to the last non-copyright violating version. Andjam 22:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright violation 

message: A paragraph got deleted without an explanation. Why was it deleted? Andjam 16:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unexplained deletion 

message: of HLF and some of its personnel. One in 2004 and one underway now (August 2007). The article should clarify this.
LDH 05:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two different trials 

message: Didn't I read that the federal case against the Holy Land Foundation ended in a mistrial? There's this and this from the Dallas Morning News.
Surprised no one updated this article. -- 75.143.96.101 05:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistrial?  

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Holy land foundation.gif

message: The links to the "experts" questioning the validity of the case are dead, not to mention the section gives the article a good-sized amount of one-sided material. Therefore, I have removed it.  The second problem is in the External links. Several of the links all revert back to HLF website/blog. One should be sufficient.98.212.227.161 (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The link to the LATimes article isn't "dead", it is just moved to the site archive. It was published in the print edition of a very respected newspaper, so is a fine reliable source. Also the direct quotes from experts do seem valuable. I do agree that the amount quoted does tend to unbalance, but trim and rephrase, don't just cut it out wholesale, along with the excellent source. Sources are very important. --GRuban (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Dead links, NPOV, etc

message: This section is UNDUE. It has little relevance, and i will trim it substantially to reflect its relevance to this article. It belongs elsewhere. Upper lima 65 (talk) 20:29, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: This section does not belong under this entry.  The Explanatory Memorandum was one piece of evidence in a lengthy trial of the Holy Land Foundation and five individual defendants.  The section should be shortened and moved to the article on the Muslim Brotherhood.Manuela21 (talk) 01:30, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Explanatory Memorandum On the General Strategic Goal for the Group In North America 

message: I would like to include a section under under "4. 2008 trial" called "4.1 2008 trial evidence" followed by "4.2 the 1993 Philadelphia Meeting".
The 1993 Philadelphia Meeting is notable both for what was said, and who attended.
During the second trial, the jury heard a tape recording of what has come to be known as the 1993 Philadelphia Meeting. 
" From October 2-3, 1993, key members of the U.S. Palestine Committee came
together at a Marriott Courtyard hotel in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania for a conference
that was monitored and recorded by Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents."  
The Palestine Committee was the Muslim Brotherhood created Hamas support network in the U.S. headed by Mousa Abu Marzook. - Lara Burns page 83
The meeting was called in response to the signing of the Oslo Accords, a peace pact between Israel, and Yasser Arafat, Hamas' rival.
Among the attendees of this meeting were, HLF defendants former HLF Chief Executive Officer  Shruki Abu Baker, and former HLF Treasurer Ghassan Elashi. 
Also in attendance were future Council on American Islamic Relations co founders Nihad Awad, and Omar Ahmed.
Among the things discussed at the meeting were :
Attendees were asked not to say Hamas, but "Samah" instead.
Hamas controlled charities described as "ours"
The subverting, or "derailing" of the Oslo Peace plan so that jihad against Israel could continue.
How to continue to support Hamas, in the event Hamas was declared a terror entity.
The need for a front, or covert organization whose connections to Hamas were not so "conspicuous".
Kristina Williams, one of the dissenting jurors in the first trial, stated that Shruki Abu Baker's statement, "War is deceit", which was made during the '93 meeting, was one of the determining factors in her decision to vote for a "guilty" verdict.  
FBI Special Agent Lara Burns testified that CAIR was a "result" of the 1993 Philadelphia Meeting. page 148 
The 1993 Philadelphia Meeting is evidence that Hamas is active in the United States, and for years ran their jihad war against Israel from this country.
2602:306:BCE6:B440:A1C3:4D85:1B16:F60B (talk) 09:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 1993 Philadelphia Meeting 

message: In the past 30 hours you have reverted five times , , , , and , exceeding the WP:3RR by two reverts.  You have yet to explain any of your reverts beyond a simple citation of WP:POV and WP:BLP.  That not good enough.  You're going to have to prove your assertions.  -- Frotz(talk) 20:03, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a part of WP:BLP that you are confused about? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:09, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I call bullshit on this one. To whatever extent BLP is applicable it comes from a public record of a trial. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:25, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Gosh, it's almost as though BLP requires that we use secondary sources and write in a non-partisan fashion! –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:07, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please point out the violations of WP:POV and WP:BLP and try to do it without resorting to personal abuse.  You already got WP:3RR.  Do you want to try for WP:PERSONAL as well?  -- Frotz(talk) 02:52, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The edit included claims about living people that are false on their face (eg. a misquote that I had to hunt down) and that in any event are not cited to reliable secondary sources. I'm concerned that you seem to believe directing someone to a relevant policy constitutes a personal attack. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:52, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The personal attacks were the repeated assumptions that I am a novice at this and your general condescending tone.  Once again, what are the violations?  Please be specific.  -- Frotz(talk) 15:20, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: BLP is clear that you can't use primary sources for controversial claims about living people (eg. saying that Awad or Abu Baker were present at a Hamas meeting or said such and such a thing). Additionally, not even the primary source states that Abu Baker (whose name is misspelt) said that quote. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:28, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: That's better.  I'll go through the text and track down secondaries.  Next time, please be more specific about why you're removing content.  -- Frotz(talk) 22:18, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

text: You are not permitted to insert content that violates BLP. If you wish to insert content that does not violate BLP, try to do so without violating policy at the same time. Then, that content will stand a greater chance of being left in. Not my job to pick through your edit to find crumbs that can stay in the article when there's so much that can't. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:13, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

text: Well, now this page is protected. Why? Was there an announcement? If Roscelese was the one asking for the page to be protected, why wasn't there an announcement? I really have to object. Livingengine1 (talk) 01:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I called attention to the 3RR violation by Roscelese here.  The article is protected for two weeks.  -- Frotz(talk) 07:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roscelese, please explain your reverts 

message: Roscelese you are in violation of Wikipedia policy. "To be clear, at Wikipedia, "ownership behavior" — even subtle ways of acting proprietary about entries — is prohibited." Please discuss your revert on the discussion page before making changes. This is NOT your private Wikipedia page. Do not engage in an edit war again. Please drop the attitude, and personal politics. If you have edits in mind on this page I want to be involved. Please discuss it with me, on this page BEFORE making your edits, reverts.
In conclusion, please explain your reverts.Livingengine1 (talk) 00:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I've talked to you before about throwing around policy words without understanding what they mean, and I suggest you revisit that advice. In the meantime, until you understand WP policy, you shouldn't be editing controversial articles, and certainly not edit-warring in them. You may not insert interpretations of primary sources with the goal of including your personal POV. There is really nothing more to be said, but I'm feeling nice right now, so I'll point you backwards to where I explained another specific problem three months ago: "The edit included claims about living people that are false on their face (eg. a misquote that I had to hunt down) and that in any event are not cited to reliable secondary sources...BLP is clear that you can't use primary sources for controversial claims about living people." –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Roscelese, you've been caught several times doing things that boil down to WP:IDLI and it's starting to look like you have an agenda that smells of whitewash.  Rather than complain about any perceived lack of secondary sources, how about improving the article by seeking out good references?  That's what I'm doing.  I hope you will have the decency to back off while I comb through and verify citations.  -- Frotz(talk) 03:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Dude, it is not my job to find references for BLP-violating content added by others. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:48, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: What is your problem with this content you keep deleting?  The two chunks you keep deleting are about a trial, its proceedings, and its outcome.  Except perhaps for a transcript of the 1993 meeting, all citations in there are from secondary sources.  How secondary is sufficient for you?  Regarding WP:BLP, it seems that you are invoking WP:BLPCRIME in particular.  This does not apply because the people described here have indeed been convicted of the crimes relevant to this article.  You might have a point if the crimes were something irrelevant. -- Frotz(talk) 00:08, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunately, "except perhaps for a transcript of the 1993 meeting" is not negligible, since almost everything you're adding back is cited to it (or to an interview with a juror, holy hell) where it is cited at all. If you are interested in having content of this ilk in the article, I strongly recommend that you start from scratch using reliable secondary sources, rather than adding back all the policy-violating content with a random secondary source thrown in for lip service. (As to your assumption, no. That has to do with omitting any material even if properly sourced while judgment is pending; what I've been pointing out repeatedly, on the contrary, is that this content is not adequately sourced.)  –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

text: "The edit included claims about living people that are false on their face (eg. a misquote that I had to hunt down) and that in any event are not cited to reliable secondary sources...BLP is clear that you can't use primary sources for controversial claims about living people." - Roscelese 
Can Roscelese tell us what misquote she is referring to?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Livingengine1 (talk • contribs) 00:14, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Investive Terrorism Project, the website you keep citing, has been accused of manipulating facts and smearing muslim americans by the Southern Poverty Law Center in the pasthttp://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/03/23/steve-emerson-backing-king-hearings-pushes-misleading-statistic-on-muslim-terrorism/. Please cite some other sources. Also, you have to use secondary sources to build an article- not primary ones. Thereandnot (talk) 00:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: An accusation by the Southern Poverty Law Center isn't particularly damning given their frequent use of hyperbole and lumping of religious organizations in with the KKK and their ilk.  -- Frotz(talk) 08:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Roscelse, Please Explain Your Reverts 

message: The article has been updated to include the Boim III court decision, i.e the reinstatement of the 156 million dollar award. Livingengine1 (talk) 04:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boim III 

message: Here is a proposal for a re-write of the "1993 Philadelphia Meeting" Section.
I would like to include a section under "4. 2008 trial" called "4.1 2008 trial evidence" followed by "4.2 the 1993 Philadelphia Meeting".
The 1993 Philadelphia Meeting is notable both for what was said, and who attended.
During the second trial, the jury heard a tape recording of what has come to be known as the 1993 Philadelphia Meeting.
" From October 2-3, 1993, key members of the U.S. Palestine Committee came together at a Marriott Courtyard hotel in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania for a conference that was monitored and recorded by Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents." pg 2
https://web.archive.org/web/20110109172840/http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/93Phillyfinal.pdf 
" Federal prosecutors say the IAP, UASR and HLF the were created by the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestinian Committee in the United States "to comprehensively address Hamas' needs.""  http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/106
The meeting was called in response to the signing of the Oslo Accords, a peace pact between Israel, and Yasser Arafat, Hamas' rival.
Among the attendees of this meeting were, HLF defendants former HLF Chief Executive Officer Shruki Abu Baker, and former HLF Treasurer Ghassan Elashi.
Also in attendance were future Council on American Islamic Relations co founders Nihad Awad, and Omar Ahmed.
Among the things discussed at the meeting were :
Attendees were asked not to say Hamas, but "Samah" instead. pg 10
Hamas controlled charities described as "ours" pg 11.
The subverting, or "derailing" of the Oslo Peace plan so that jihad against Israel could continue. pg 12-13
How to continue to support Hamas, in the event Hamas was declared a terror entity. pg 4
The need for a front, or covert organization whose connections to Hamas were not so "conspicuous". pg 20.
" Prosecutor Barry Jonas asked [FBI Special Agent Lara]Burns whether any groups formed after the Philadelphia gathering fit this mold. “CAIR,” she[FBI Special Agent Lara Burns] said. " http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2008/10/fbi-cair-is-a-front-group-and.html/
"The dozens of pages of transcripts from the 1993 Philadelphia conference provide a veritable roadmap of the strategies HLF, IAP, and CAIR would employ in the coming years to establish themselves as main stream organizations in the U.S. The key officials in these organizations display an acute awareness of the language they must use, the institutions they must “infiltrate,” and the manner in which they must exploit the media and Congress to achieve their goals." Lefkowitz  pg 25  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Livingengine1 (talk • contribs) 01:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: We would need reliable sources. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:49, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

text: You are going to need to be more specific about what you mean. Livingengine1 (talk) 23:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Opposition organizations and individuals won't cut it. Do you have reliable sources that discuss the trial or evidence? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:09, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I know this is a very difficult thing for you to work with other people, but I have to insist that you be more forthcoming as to your objections to the Lefkowtiz piece. Livingengine1 (talk) 03:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: "Opposition organizations and individuals won't cut it." –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:27, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree with Roscelese on this one.  Thereandnot (talk) 23:54, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 1993 Philadelphia Meeting Rewrite 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I suggest removing the image from the article for the following reasons: Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context per Wikipedia's policy MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE
*The article contains no substantive information regarding any specific relevancy between CAIR and Holy Land Foundation.
*The image of the check doesn't prove anything without the reverse side also being included, which will show whether or not it was negotiated and into which account. Anyone with a home printer and some check stock from any office supply store could produce a check made payable to or from anyone. At a minimum, the source for the image of the check needs to be cited.
Please share your feedback if you have anything to add. Djrun (talk) 16:46, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Check from terrorist organization HLF to Islamic organization CAIR.jpg 

message: The page says that the documentary was produced on February 2022 and directed by Mohammad Omar. However, IMDb says the documentary was released in 2016. In addition, Al-Jazeerah's YouTube also has the documentary posted on Oct 5, 2016. Both IMDb and YouTube have Mohammad Omar as the director. 47.189.41.245 (talk) 14:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Documentary date 

message: I propose merging Islamic Association of Palestine into Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. Its clearly a Wikipedia:POVFORK of this page (all of the citations are from a pro-Israeli think tank fellow, Matthew Levitt), and it clearly discusses the same trial and much of the optics of the trial. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 22:55, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: *Merge – I guess I'll start with the first vote. Seems they both talk at length about the trial and allegations that defendents in the trial were using Holy Land Foundation/Islamic Association as fronts for Hamas. This article is clearly more Neutral POV, the other is clearly not, but has been able to slip under the radar by using the name of the other organization named in the suit. There is little to no real info in the Islamic Association article about exactly what it did different. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 22:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal