Talk:Catalonia

message: I think the intro should also mention, even if in a second role, that Catalonia is also a cultural figure which spreads through both Spain (the CCCAA) and France (North Catalonia). Otherwise is like turning Kurdistan page into a page for the Irak-administred autonomous region.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raicopk (talk • contribs) 12:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That is the Catalan Countries, which has an article. According to the article, the support for politically unifying that region is weak. Catalonia to the Catalan Countries is as France to the Francosphere. Unknown Temptation (talk) 10:35, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not the Catalan Countries, which would include areas beyond Catalonia itself as it refers to a linguistic area. Catalonia proper (the territories of the former Principality of Catalonia) includes Northern Catalonia, which since the Treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659 rests under french sovereignty (see Northern Catalonia). Prrprtll (talk) 10:24, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  North Catalonia 

message: I am waiting on the explanation of why Catalonia is not a country and Wales is so. And why we are nationalists and Welsh are not. And be kind and reply instead of being so tolerant and democratic (irony) deleting every section with which you do not agree.
--Breizhcatalonia1993 (talk) 11:22, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Because while the United Kingdom consists of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, Spain is "state of autonomies" divided in Autonomous communities of which Catalonia is one of them.
--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 11:39, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  explanations 

message: I'm not sure why the article is prefaced with . It's certainly not a short article, but I can't find never-ending paragraphs or other features which would warrant the tag. Additionally, it's an extremely well-structured article which is very easy to navigate.
So I'm in favour of removing the verylong tag because I can't see what needs to be fixed; any thoughts? 194.80.232.68 (talk) 12:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: While fixation into size in terms of kilobytes is not my cup of tea, the article features unnecessarily detailed sections up for trimming (particularly given that "main articles" exist and are linked here) also happening to be unsourced, including languages, Festivals and public holidays (wholly unsourced), Music and dance (wholly unsourced); media and cinema (wholly unsourced), prone to fall into tedious name dropping. The length of the "Statute of Autonomy" section (which also has its standalone article), possibly "Politics"'s too and the presence of the table in "Roads" (a bit of cruft) are also dubious, imo. A suggestion for trimming is perfectly reasonable, the way I see it, regardless of the additional lack of verifiability. I am also sure a more concise lead section could be worked.--Asqueladd (talk) 15:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Very good points, thanks for that :) 194.80.232.68 (talk) 21:36, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is the article really too long? 

message: The initial paragraph...
Catalonia (/ˌkætəˈloʊniə/; Catalan: Catalunya [kətəˈluɲə, kataˈluɲa]; Aranese Occitan: Catalonha [kataˈluɲa];[8] Spanish: Cataluña [kataˈluɲa]) is an autonomous community in the northeastern corner of Spain, laying at the feet of the Pyrenees, designated as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy.[c][10]
seems to have one reasonable tone *except* for "laying at the feet of the Pyrenees" which seems more poetic than the remainder. Should it be rephrased to seem more encyclopedic?Naraht (talk) 22:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It was an IP edition. Deleted. --Jotamar (talk) 11:53, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poetry? 

message: Template:Largest cities of Catalonia has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 09:40, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nomination for deletion of "Template:Largest cities of Catalonia" 

message: I open this thread to address why this map () is unnecessary and inappropriate for the Lead. 
- First of all, it is a somewhat confusing comparison, because Catalonia is one of the Seventeen "Autonomous Communities" that make up Spain territorially, and yet it gives the feeling of being compared with Sovereign European countries as if Catalonia were an equivalent of them. 
- Secondly, there is no article from another Autonomous Community that uses a second map to compare it with the rest of Europe:
::*Asturias
::*Castille and Leon
::*Castilla-La Mancha
::*Basque Country
::*Navarre
::*Cantabria
::*Andalusia
::*Murcia
::*Aragon
::*La Rioja
::*Galicia
::*Valencian Community
::*Community of Madrid
::*Canary Islands
::*Balearic Islands
As you can see, the articles of all the territories of Spain use the single same map within Spain without making comparisons with European countries. The same thing also happens with the rest of the territories and regions of other countries, obviously:
::*Trentino-Alto Adige
::*Toscana
::*Campania
::*Thuringia
::*Algarve
::*Occitania
::*Thessaly
::*Trøndelag
::*Dalarna County
::*Lower Austria
::*Styria, and a huge etcetera...
- Third, the argument with the comparison with Scotland is invalid. The political (and historical) status of Catalonia in Spain is different from that of Scotland in the United Kingdom, since Scotland, unlike Catalonia, is a Constituent Country of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is a sovereign state made up of countries (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) while Spain is a sovereign state made up of Autonomous Communities, not constituent countries, they are different Political Statuses. Catalonia is one of these Autonomous Communities and it doesn't have any special or different political status with respect to the rest of Spanish territories. 
Mainly due to these three reasons, and because potentially violates Wikipedia's neutrality and creates double standards, the map is removed from the Lead. Thanks. Venezia Friulano (talk) 4:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I find the second map perhaps unnecessary but not necessarily inappropriate. From a legal point of view Catalonia is like any other autonomous community in Spain, but from other points of view it is not, for example it's one of 2 communities (the other being the Basque Country) where a sizeable part of the population, perhaps even a majority, wants independence from Spain. There's no reason to restrict the page to a legalistic point of view. --Jotamar (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Jotamar; the lack of true independence doesn't change the sentiments that exist in the region. Catalonia is unique from the other autonomous communities in this respect because Catalonia is unique in some important respects. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 03:05, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  A second map comparing it with European countries? 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
* 
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: There has been edit-warring in the lead on how to describe Catalonia, namely as a European nation, or an autonomous community, and it has to stop. (Secondarily, there has been some disagreement about the terms country vs. sovereign state.) This page is the place to discuss content disagreements about this article. In adding comments below, please consider Wikipedia's core policy of verifiability and the dependence of content on published reliable, independent, secondary sources, which in preference should be in English.
It is already clear there is a disagreement, so there is no point in merely adding a comment in order to say, "This one is better" or "I like that one better"; that is meaningless and will not lead to consensus. Instead, show how your preferred wording better complies with Wikipedia policy and guidelines, in particular Verifiability and WP:DUEWEIGHT. That is the only thing that counts, and not our own particular opinions on the topic. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello editors, reviewing the Catalonia page I have seen that there is currently a discussion about what definition of Catalonia should be on the lead page. The fact that Catalonia is a historic European nation is undeniable. I have been able to see several references and it is like that. I think we should maintain the definition of a historical European nation, in fact most users agree with this. Synalepha (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Catalonia's historic status is already covered in the lead. Why should it take precedence over its current status in the lead paragraph? A.D.Hope (talk) 10:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Echoing my comment above as discussion seems to have moved here, this conversation is backwards in taking a name and then trying to build the article around it. The discussion is not what to define "Catalonia" as, but what the article is about. In this case, it is about the current polity. CMD (talk) 11:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello, a few weeks ago I checked this page and the definition of historic European nation has been deleted. I just read this section and all the comments in it and I agree with keeping the definition as it was. It is a proven fact and should be maintained in the main definition. I vote for mantein: Catalonia is a historical european nation now administrated as an autonomous community of Spain. 79.153.9.62 (talk) 11:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

text: Why the lead has deleted? it was perfect as it was... Catalonia is a historical european nation. user elcaganer demontrate with a lot of sources. i will revert. i don't see nobody with contrarious reasons.. 93.191.139.160 (talk) 14:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: And I reverted that, it is being discussed here. DankJae 15:06, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

text: The IP 93.191.139.160 is likely the same editor as "user elcaganer" that they've praised here, and both are socks of ThePenfieldHomunculus. Fred Zepelin (talk) 17:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

text: The addition of  and/or  as qualifiers reads as a bonafide slogan. The entire lead section should be trimmed down of historical details (also displaying some needless pov-related fixations, in addition to an also overlong recentist last paragraph about recent developments and the ubiquitous bad practice of namedropping individual names). Visibilization of the consolidated national identity of Catalans could be augmented in the lead and/or be framed in different terms, but I do not see a point in pulling the quite clunky proposal above involving the opening statement.--Asqueladd (talk) 18:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, the last four paragraphs should be compressed into one. The body's history section suffers similarly. CMD (talk) 10:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  European nation, or autonomous community 

message: With the exception of BCNViki (who was canvassed here by a sock account), the comments above supporting the recent attempt to change the lead to "a historical European nation" are all socks of ThePenfieldHomunculus. This includes El Caganer, Synalepha (both of which are already blocked) and a smattering of IPs that have cropped up since the blocks. I see no point in replying to that one editor anymore; the lead should stay in the long-stable condition that it was before they arrived. Fred Zepelin (talk) 17:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Socks in this discussion