Talk:2006 Lebanon War/Archive 13

message: === Which side of border original Hezbollah raid happened on? ===
Yeah, yeah, I know there's an extensive archived discussion of this somewhere: 1) I'm too damn lazy to find it, and 2) I want to add my own little bundle of sticks to the bonfire.
I guess I'm ready to go along with the mainstream media's version of this, that the raid occurred in Israel. (I'm talking about the "capturing the 2 soldiers" part, not the "chasing the captors back into Lebanon" part, so puleeze, let's not confuse ourselves any more than absolutely necessary, OK?) That's after reading this account on my favorite website, Antiwar.com. In it, the Israeli dissident and peace activist Ran HaCohen debunks the "captured within Lebanon" version of events. It's well documented, with links supplied to the relevant articles. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. +ILike2BeAnonymous 03:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion about the captured soldiers

message: Yeah, yeah, I know there's an extensive archived discussion of this somewhere: 1) I'm too damn lazy to find it, and 2) I want to add my own little bundle of sticks to the bonfire.
I guess I'm ready to go along with the mainstream media's version of this, that the raid occurred in Israel. (I'm talking about the "capturing the 2 soldiers" part, not the "chasing the captors back into Lebanon" part, so puleeze, let's not confuse ourselves any more than absolutely necessary, OK?) That's after reading this account on my favorite website, Antiwar.com. In it, the Israeli dissident and peace activist Ran HaCohen debunks the "captured within Lebanon" version of events. It's well documented, with links supplied to the relevant articles. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. +ILike2BeAnonymous 03:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which side of border original Hezbollah raid happened on? 

message: ===IDF/IAF Depleted Uranium Munitions===
There are reports that the "bunker buster" munitions that IDF/IAF took receipt of are tipped with depleted uranium .  This should probably be flagged up in the article somewhere due to the problems some experts have cited with contamination from these weapons particularly with reference to Gulf War syndrome.
Here is the original article with the report and I realise the source is suspect (prisonplanet) www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/290706deadlydu.htm], but I recognise the video clip- it is from a documentary called Beyond Treason [] and it is credible testimony from the expert Dr. Doug Rokke.  Anyone have time to write a paragraph on this in the casualties section with appropriate links to the longterm health effects of these IDF/IAF weapons? 82.29.227.171 20:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote something on this- where in the article is it meant to go? There is no weapons section. The concern with the weapons is 1) their longterm health effects 2) indiscriminate nature (when expended they pulverise and contaminate a wide area). With those specific concerns in mind it would probably belong in the civilian casualties section until any decomination effort begins (assuming there will be a pause in activity for it to take place). 82.29.227.171 10:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Added details to child article Targeting of civilian areas in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict and 1 line into main article under Environment damage area. 82.29.227.171 10:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion about weapon types

message: There are reports that the "bunker buster" munitions that IDF/IAF took receipt of are tipped with depleted uranium .  This should probably be flagged up in the article somewhere due to the problems some experts have cited with contamination from these weapons particularly with reference to Gulf War syndrome.
Here is the original article with the report and I realise the source is suspect (prisonplanet) www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/290706deadlydu.htm], but I recognise the video clip- it is from a documentary called Beyond Treason [] and it is credible testimony from the expert Dr. Doug Rokke.  Anyone have time to write a paragraph on this in the casualties section with appropriate links to the longterm health effects of these IDF/IAF weapons? 82.29.227.171 20:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I wrote something on this- where in the article is it meant to go? There is no weapons section. The concern with the weapons is 1) their longterm health effects 2) indiscriminate nature (when expended they pulverise and contaminate a wide area). With those specific concerns in mind it would probably belong in the civilian casualties section until any decomination effort begins (assuming there will be a pause in activity for it to take place). 82.29.227.171 10:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Added details to child article Targeting of civilian areas in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict and 1 line into main article under Environment damage area. 82.29.227.171 10:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IDF/IAF Depleted Uranium Munitions

message: ===Begining of conflict===
I have added following edit to the "Begining of conflict" section: "Following the Isreali air-attacks on Lebanon in which some 60 civilians were killed [22] intended to pressure Hesbollah to release captured Isreali soldiers,..."  With supporting source 
Tewfik has in two instances removed the edit justifying it as being discussed before here  and here .  Both of those discussions talk about the where were soldiers captured.  Obviously I am not disputing nor discussing that issue in my edit but I am pointing out the order of events, in summary that Isreal began air assult following the capture of soldiers. Why is this being removed?  Am I missing something here?--Dado 14:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe he removed it because every single major news organization agrees that the conflict didn't actually start like that. Should we claim that WWII started because a bunch of polish soldiers crossed into Germany and destroyed a radio station?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 14:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I've checked the difs. There was an IP intermingled with your edits that added the Ayta al-Shab stuff, however you added reports of Israeli bombing as taking place before any Hezbollah attack, which is equally incorrect (and isn't what the cited source says either, as far as I could tell). I imagine that you didn't mean to change the chronology, but you did. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask myself or this Talk. Cheers, TewfikTalk 15:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion about casu belli/purpose military operations

message: I have added following edit to the "Begining of conflict" section: "Following the Isreali air-attacks on Lebanon in which some 60 civilians were killed [22] intended to pressure Hesbollah to release captured Isreali soldiers,..."  With supporting source 
Tewfik has in two instances removed the edit justifying it as being discussed before here  and here .  Both of those discussions talk about the where were soldiers captured.  Obviously I am not disputing nor discussing that issue in my edit but I am pointing out the order of events, in summary that Isreal began air assult following the capture of soldiers. Why is this being removed?  Am I missing something here?--Dado 14:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe he removed it because every single major news organization agrees that the conflict didn't actually start like that. Should we claim that WWII started because a bunch of polish soldiers crossed into Germany and destroyed a radio station?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 14:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I've checked the difs. There was an IP intermingled with your edits that added the Ayta al-Shab stuff, however you added reports of Israeli bombing as taking place before any Hezbollah attack, which is equally incorrect (and isn't what the cited source says either, as far as I could tell). I imagine that you didn't mean to change the chronology, but you did. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask myself or this Talk. Cheers, TewfikTalk 15:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Begining of conflict

message: May I ask for the reason why it was removed? It had an image of the destroyed UN outpost and description. Was this Isreaeli whitewashing or a mistake? --Pudeo 20:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems to have been moved to the sub-article Attacks on United Nations personnel during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. Check there. +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strike on UN chapter removed 

message: I propose to discuss about moving some part of article to a new article.--Sa.vakilian 12:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It could be possible to remove the "Previous prisoner exchanges" section into the child article for that- it details them all. 82.29.227.171 19:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also think the International Reaction section could be slimmed down- the image is also non neutral- creates an impression that the protests were some religious issue and/or specifically that Muslims have a problem with the bombings. 82.29.227.171 19:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I dont think this is important so much, various players are ignoring the UN. 82.29.227.171 19:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What part shoul be moved

message: I think this part is very important and it should be remained completely.--Sa.vakilian 12:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Position of Lebanon

message: I think this part is very important and it should be remained completely.--Sa.vakilian 13:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I dont think this is important so much, various players are ignoring the UN. 82.29.227.171 19:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Negotiations for ceasefire

message: who changed the external links section and replaced good links and great sources by blocks? Could someone change it back to the "pro-lebanese, pro-israeli" one? CG 21:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: At the moment this section consists of text copied from elsewhere in the article, and some newspaper observations. It seems the important stuff is already covered in the "Negotiations for ceasefire" section as well as the general Hezbollah and Israeli responses. TewfikTalk 20:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fine with me, but I think we should allow for some duplication in the article.  If you feel there's too much we could add a "See also" or something.  My creed is too much info is better than too little. FightCancer 21:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aims section 

message: I've shrunk them down a little, but they still take up a lot of the page. I don't have any skills in andvanced wiki editing - I was wonrdering if someone could put them in two columns, so it would have one column for Israel and one for Lebanon under each heading - ie Blogs Lebanese|Israeli, or just put the lot of them in two columns. Thanks. --Iorek85 22:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: I removed it for two reasons;
# Israel is not part of the International reaction. Internation reaction refers to other nations reactions to the conflict. I can see some sort of argument for the inclusion of the propaganda as Israel is trying to influence the international reaction, but even then, it could go in the main article.
# We're trying to keep this article as short as possible. It's still over 60kb despite our best efforts - every little bit counts.
I'd ask, then, that if you really think it belongs, could you just summarise it into a short sentence with a reference, instead of a small paragraph with a heading. Thanks. --Iorek85 03:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Understood. Done, and placed in the more appropriate "Israeli response" section, as this is the response of the Israeli government pertaining to its military actions in Lebanon. AdamKesher 12:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's much better there. Nice work. :) --Iorek85 12:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: International reaction

message: Whew. After a lot of work, I've refactored the page, archived about 200kb of it, and split out the discussion on the two largest sections into separate pages. And the talk page is STILL too big! (though 50kb isn't nearly as bad as 300kb). Is this format O.K with everybody? --Iorek85 02:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No it isn't. It's a total mess. Just archive the conversations from here on out. (Bjorn Tipling 15:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Maybe it is time to move back POV and pictures to this page? There is hardly any discussion at all going on in the refactoring pages (not even 10 edits a day.) --Battra 11:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you exclude my refactoring edits, theres not a huge amount more going on here. 10 a day just on photos isn't small (and I don't see the problem - if people couldn't find the pictures section, they'd just put the talk here). And yes, you could move them back, I wouldn't object, but this page is currently over 120kb already. Moving them back, even archived, will still make this page even bigger. I tend to prefer moving out text instead of archiving it - the U.N section, for example, has been repeated many times, same as discussion on where soldiers were captured, because people don't read the archives. --Iorek85 11:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Discussion about the talk page

message: Whoever did the work: good effort, bad judgement. Just about killed the conversation about images by moving the page to some obscure location. Just archive the discussion like you would on any other page. Thanks. (Bjorn Tipling 15:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it is time to move back POV and pictures to this page? There is hardly any discussion at all going on in the refactoring pages (not even 10 edits a day.) --Battra 11:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you exclude my refactoring edits, theres not a huge amount more going on here. 10 a day just on photos isn't small (and I don't see the problem - if people couldn't find the pictures section, they'd just put the talk here). And yes, you could move them back, I wouldn't object, but this page is currently over 120kb already. Moving them back, even archived, will still make this page even bigger. I tend to prefer moving out text instead of archiving it - the U.N section, for example, has been repeated many times, same as discussion on where soldiers were captured, because people don't read the archives. --Iorek85 11:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The discussion refractoring on this page is a total mess 

message: It seems that footnote 8 is messed up, it should be about evacuation of Isreali cities, but is instead about the Lebaneese evacuation, can anyone find a proper source for this? This footnote is from the infobox. FireCrack 11:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Bad footnote

message: Where incidents of this nature belong in the article isnt clear as alleged attacks on food convoys/the fleeing havent been addressed so far.
[Syrian] Red Cross drivers won't take aid to Lebanon 
Aid convoy hit in Lebanon as UN accuses Hezbollah 
"A soldier in the UN force in south Lebanon (Unfil) which reached Rmeish yesterday told Reuters that carrying aid into the south was highly dangerous as Israeli strikes often landed very close to the UN vehicles."
82.29.227.171 05:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alleged convoy attack 'Marwahin' 15th 82.29.227.171 18:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Video of actual convoy attack outside Qana 30th  82.29.227.171 23:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now appearing in Targeting of civilian areas in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict 82.29.227.171 10:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: IAF/IDF alleged attacks on convoys incl. UN convoy

message: I went over the link below and BBC seem to have done a good job on analysing the problems Israel is bound to face in executing this mission. Of cause, some will say its biased, but then time always have a way of validiting/anulling?? analysis of events that have future signficancy.  
Nassarallah image gone means petetz image gone.
:Aunty knows best!Hypnosadist 11:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  BBC analysis of the effect of the war 

message: In Metula (sp?), two Indian UN observers died due to Israeli airstrikes.  CNN said it on TV, but their website doesn't have anything on it yet. Also, the syrian-lebanon boarder just closed. Look for some citations, I can't find anything--Rayc 18:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Drat, I hate it when CNN does this.  It took what, three days to find a source for the Lebanon Anti-aircraft quote.--Rayc 18:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  says 2 indian UN wounded when IAF bombed their post, perhaps they died of their injuries? 82.29.227.171 19:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And they blew up a road to Syria  "Late Saturday evening, a road leading from Damascus to Lebanon, reportedly close to the Syrian-Lebanese border, was targeted" 82.29.227.171 19:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: On ABC an UNIFIL spokesperson is reported of saying, that two UN soldiers were injured during an Israeli air strike. If you cross check with e.g. Google News you receive more than 1000 likewise hits. Therefore this information should be included in the article. --Attraho 22:34, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: But has anyone found if they died?  CNN now saying they were only injured. --Rayc 00:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: UN press release today says that they are "moderately wounded" .  The press releases from UNIFIL Lebanon appear to have stopped for the minute but you can press releases through un.org 82.29.227.171 19:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two more Un observers die  

message: I saw that the intro got mixed up and it read that the initial Hezbollah attack killed 8 soldiers? It should have read 3 killed. Also the shelling into Israel came later? Anyways, sorry if I messed this up. --Tom 00:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now I am reading different number of initial Israli soldiers killed and there was shelling? My fault for trying to edit this article, I am out of here!! --Tom 00:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sorry, trying to fix intro

message: How come members of Hesbollah are called militants.  I don't think they consider themselves militants and certainly large part of population of Lebanon does not consider them either.  Also entry stating "875 treated for shock"  is a subjective and irrelevant in context to casulties of Lebanon column especially since none are listed under Lebanon column. There is quite certainly far more shock cases than in Lebanon.  These items need to be corrected --Dado 04:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Militant" is generally considered a neutral descriptor for groups like Hezbollah, because it describes them without engaging in moral judgement. They are considered terrorists by several Western governments. TewfikTalk 04:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If noone else objects I'll take your answer but what is the deal with the number of shocked Israelis.  Also why did you remove a well sourced edit in the second paragraph talking about the order of events. Your 0 summary revert  was a bit arogant.--Dado 05:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: The militant is a good NPOV comprimise. As for the shock, I don't think it should be there. Wounded, certainly, but shocked? Who wouldn't be shocked after having half your house collapse, or your family killed? --Iorek85 06:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hezbollah has a militant wing but is not militant as a whole.  There is the political entity called Hezbollah and the citizen political constituents of Hezbollah.  Most of them are not militant.  One could think of Hezbollah as a political party including its constituents, much the same as "Republicans"  or "Likud".  A portion of that political group is in fact militant and engaged in guerilla war against Israel.  Even the Wikipedia article on Hezbollah states this.  Here in the United States we call them all "Terrorists" but of course that is POV. --JBull 06:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: "Shock" there refers to something along the lines of Post-traumatic stress disorder, and is a documented medical condition. The reason it is included, per Talk somewhere above (I'll check if you need confirmation), is that the Lebanese numbers do not differentiate between regular and "shock" injuries (or between much else - the situation has not allowed for clear Lebanese numbers on much). Cheers, TewfikTalk 06:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PTSD is something that happens mach after the initial shock usually as a subconcious response to past events.  This event is still ongoing and it hard to quantify who has suffered a shock.  I am also certain that most Lebanese will not flock to psychiatrist after their experiences which they are still going through.  In either case it is very premature to discuss these yet and I support the removal.--Dado 14:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I removed the reference to shock on the info bar as it listed a number. The article it cited [] did not and says "The vast majority of casualties were treated for shock, while 19 people are still hospitalized across the country in serious condition." It does not mention a specific number as the info bar did. Where that number came from is a mystery to me. Feel free to add it back if you have a citation on that.--Oiboy77 07:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I also mentioned the shock stat on the  Discussion on POV problems page --0g 15:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unbalanced info box

message: The Israelis have made this page as they see the war, Lebanon casualties and destruction not relevant despite it being one of the most important facets of the war.
Reaper7  ]]</span>
: I don't see any pictures of the destruction of civilian targets deliberately aimed at by the Hizbullah. If you want pictures of destruction, then fairness requires pictures from both sides of the border Cymruisrael 14:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  more fairness requires more pictures from the side it had 34 children dead today --200.88.223.98 16:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I believe in differentiating between an army that does it utmost to avoid civilian injuries and a cowardly, terrorist organisation that hides behind women and children and deliberately targets civilians. Also, if you want to talk about unequal equations, why not discuss the fact that the Hizbollah captured/abducted/kidnapped two Israeli soldiers and then asked for the release of hundreds of prisoners. Cymruisrael 10:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

text: There are some at Targeting of civilian areas in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict 82.29.227.171 10:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why no pictures of the destruction in Lebanon?

message: Why is this article included in the War Crimes category? Until a court has decided that a specific action is a war crime, any such categorisation is POV and should be avoided. Cymruisrael 15:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, the category has been removed.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 15:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Categorisation

message: Off the top of my head here are some reasons why not to use it in a neutral article ie. why the image currently used is POV and distortionary and how it creates a number of misleading impressions namely:
*That protests against the conflict are muslim or orientated around religious issues.
*That protests against the conflict are disorganised/small in nature/isolated groups of individuals.
*That protests against the conflict are "anti-israel", "anti-jewish", "antisemitic" etc.
I suggest a more suitable image be used which isnt POV, and preferably one that isnt of Americans or nations uninvolved in the fighting.  Plenty of Lebanese were protesting along with some Israeli. 82.29.227.171 19:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, the image is a bad choice for representing the worldwide protest. Furthermore it doesn't even have a free license. I took away the image. (Image:Muslimprotests.jpg) --Battra 20:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call, but maybe more discussion is needed? I will look for another in the meantime. 82.29.227.171 20:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed that the person who uploaded the image "Muslimprotests.jpg", Bingman06, just had removed the previous image "Sydprot.JPG",  so I put back the earlier image, though it might be possible to find even better pictures. --Battra 20:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for your comments and work. 82.29.227.171 20:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: use of "Muslim Protests Against Israel" image is non Neutral

message: IDF going to suspend airoperations for 48 hours, effective immediately, to coordinate humanitarian efforts and investigate Qana incident
Just reported on CNN at 508pm EDT 30-July-2006.  Going to add it to the page. Bsheppard 21:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hay barbarians have effics, man. Enlil Ninlil 21:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Breaking News: IDF going to suspend air operations for 48 hours, effective immediately

message: I went ahead and added the latest on the 48 hour cease of air operations.  Available at 2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict#IDF_agrees_to_cease_air_operations_for_48_hours ... citations following.  This hit the wires at just after 5.  NYT has it as a news alert at 517.  CNN has a news alert at 508.  But no link.  So just waiting for that.
Added citation from cnn.com and nytimes.com Bsheppard 21:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Changed it to past tense, and the part about Northern Command needs cited- not in article. 82.29.227.171 10:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Added suspension of air operations to main page

message: Please add your comments to my proposal for some paragraphs about possible war crimes (translated from the German Wikipedia). I will have to further check the sources on my own before publishing. Correction of language mistakes is appreciated, too. RolloM 0:31, 31 July 2006 (CEST)
Without explicitly suspecting one side, the United Nations analize the events in the conflict for war crimes. The U.N. see responsability of Israel and Hezbollah for many avoidable victims, mainly in the civil population of Lebanon. Primarily, the number of Lebanese civil victims, which amounts to about ten times the number of victims of Hisbollah, is critizised. The involved combatants are bound by international law to protect the civil population.SpiegelOnline:UNO erwägt Untersuchung wegen Kriegverbrechen 19. Juli 2006  On July 20, U.N. High Commissionor for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, condamned the killig of civilians in Lebanon, Israel and the Palestinian territories. On July 21, The International Commission of Jourists (ICJ) has accused Israel and Hezbollah of having committed war crimes. On the occasion of a visit of destroyed Beirut quarters U.N. Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland called the attacs of resident areas by Israeli air forces violations of international humanitarian law. He also blamed Hezbollah for "mingeling with women and children" and thereby for being jointly responsible for the civilian victims of Israeli military strikes.tagesschau.de: "Aufhören, sich feige unter Frauen und Kinder zu mischen" 24. Juli 2006
Israel seems to bomb civilian Lebanese buildings withouth necessity. This reveals from a instruction to Israeli air forces reported by a high-ranking Israeli army officer in Israeli military radio: "Dan Halutz, Chief of Staff of the Israeli air forces issued the command, to destroy ten multistory buildings in the southern suburbs as answer to every rocket attack to Haifa." Der Spiegel: Heftige Schlacht um Hisbollah-Dorf 24. Juli 2006 
Regarding the attack to an unarmed and marked observation post of UNIFIL local U.N. officers declared "The attack started in the early morning. We called the Israelis at least six times. They continued artillery bombing and in the end they sent an aircraft that bombed the post from the air. In that moment, towards 7:30, the contact broke off. A Chinese, a Finn, a Canadian and an Austrian were dead." U.N. Secretary-General Annan described the incident using almost the same words.n-TV: Getötete UN-Soldaten: Die "Panne" war wohl keine 26. Juli 2006
On July 24, Lebanese President Émile Lahoud blamed Israel for using phosphorus bombs. Naharnet: Lebanon Accuses Israel of Using Internationally Prohibited Weapons Against Civilians  16. Juli 2006 Israel contradicted,  the arms used in Lebanon would not violate international laws.azonline.ch: Libanon wirft Israel Phosphoreinsatz vor 24. Juli 2006Jawad Najem, surgeon in a Tyrus hospital claims to have treated woundeds with phosphorus burnings. Following a BBC report also other physicians in south Lebanon suspect burnings they treated were caused by phosphorus.BBC: Israel urged to shun cluster bomb 25. Juli 2006
Human rights organisation Human Rights Watch blames Israel for using cluster bombs against Lebanese civilians.BBC: Israel urged to shun cluster bomb 25. Juli 2006 Israeli forces admitted the employment of cluster bombs, but declared to use such ammonition in accordances with "international standards." n-tv.de: Hisbollah-Dorf eingenommen - Israel setzt Streubomben ein, 25. Juli 2006 During such an attack on July 19 to the village Blida a 60 yeards old was killed, a 45 years old lost both legs and further eleven people, among them seven children were wounded.Human Rights Watch: Israeli Cluster Munitions Hit Civilians in Lebanon (englisch), 24. Juli 2006
In the meantime indices increase that Israeli air forces attack ambulance vehicles on purpose. At least ten Lebanese vehicles carrying the red cross symbol were attached, causing death of more than twelve injured and rescuers.The Australian: Civilians killed as Israelis target ambulances, 26. Juli 2006 Reuters: Six Lebanese Red Cross medics injured in strike , 23. Juli 2006 The Guardian: Red Cross ambulances destroyed in Israeli air strike on rescue mission (englisch), 25. Juli 2006 Time: Where No One Is Safe (englisch), 25. Juli 2006 The Age: Agonies anew for team on the side of the angels (englisch), 26. Juli 2006 A survivor of such an attack reported an Israeli helicopter had followed the vehicle for a certain time and fired later. Der Spiegel: Lebanese Victims: Please Don't Ask any more Questions (englisch), 25. Juli 2006
On July 24, Hezbollah attacked and destroyed two Israeli Merkava 4 ambulance tanks bringing injured soldiers to shelter. Two Israeli soldiers were killed and four more injured. Time: Israel's New Battle Plan: Grinding It Out (englisch), 25. Juli 2006
Information about numbers of victims in agency notifications partially depend on official sources of combatants. Israeli Vice President Shimon Peres doubted the Lebanese government notifications of high numbers of civilian victims.SpiegelOnline:Peres zweifelt libanesische Opferzahlen an, 20. Juli 2006
What exactly is a war crime? Israel says that Hizbollah positions its weapons in civilian areas. Is that a war crime. There is no guidence system in most of Hizbollah missles so it has virtually no way to prevent them from hitting civilians, hospitals, schools, etc. Is that a war crime? Israel hits a UN position. Is that a war crime? Civilians are killed in a building targeted by Israel planes. Is that a war crime? What if the civilians were there, not because they were prevented by leaving for force. Is that a war crime? 
Of course, the answer to all these questions requires the questions to be valid and the facts to be known. Until this war, and it is a war, not a conflict, is over and the truth is learned, it is all speculation at best, and propaganda at worse. I thought that Wikipedia was about facts, not speculation. Let's leave the question of war crimes until this war is over and independent parties can sort facts from fiction. --user:mnw2000 05:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Some of this may belong in Targeting of civilian areas in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict? 82.29.227.171 10:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Possible War Crimes

message: I got a SPAM email with a link to this page: 
http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html
It's on Hal Turner's website, and some images have his name on them.  Is he really claiming that the Israelites did these things?  Did they?  Are these photos legit?  Did he even put up this page?  Why the spam on it?  Is Lebanon or their allies using spam like this to try to sway people's opinion on who is in the wrong?  If someone could look into it more, that would be great. Rob 04:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Hal Turner is a neo-nazi/fascist of some kind.  I dont believe those pictures are from current events in this article but by looking at them some clearly show IDF/scenes from the region.  There are actually more/just as graphic images from the present conflict available  for example and they have been appearing on various anti-war protest sites. 82.29.227.171 07:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti Israel people/sites 

message: This article itself looks relatively good, but a lot of its sub-articles aren't in such good shape.  Check out  for the rest of the sub-articles (in the current conflict).  I did some cursory examination and they weren't so good.  At the minimum they all need to have the nav template and some decent introductory text that links back to this, the main article.  One of them I could tell was just a straight move from a previous section on this main page, and as such, it lacked context entirely.  --Cyde↔Weys 06:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please help edit related articles 

message: There were 4 UN soldiers killed by airstrike, PLUS one UNIFIL international staff member was killed on the 17th in a previous IDF airstrike on Tyre. The text and casualty figures that were originally in the article did made that clear before they got shunted off 
"UNIFIL international staff member and his wife were killed after an IAF airstrike on the Hosh area of Tyre where they lived on 17 July. Their bodies were recovered from the rubble on 26 July" 
Cites:   82.29.227.171 19:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Infobox UN dead

message: I qualified because there is no clear source that there were indeed precision-guided weapons, only diplomatic testimony in the case of the Khiam/UNTSO post, and although the Guardian says matter-of-factly that Qana was hit by these missiles, the statement seems to rest on the recovery of fragments, something I couldn't find on CNN or other sites. If many sites do report this, that would change matters. TewfikTalk 22:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Go to youtube and search for Kafr Qana there is video of the bomb fragments, also described on the page about the attack.  The exact munition is unclear at this stage. 82.29.227.171 23:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Precision-guided" 

message: Should this  be mentioned? Seems quite notable, but  I'm not sure where to put it, if at all. There's this too.  Any suggestions?--Planetary 07:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Didn't see that. Thanks.--Planetary 19:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oil Spill?