Talk:Eastern Lightning

message: It is said on the Internet that the Church of Almighty God is an underworld organization, and the Chinese government told us that if people do not accept the “Eastern Lightening”, their ears would be cut off and their eyes would be gouged out. Many people, including me, are very astounded when hearing about this propaganda. But when I think about it carefully, I found that it is not true. Now the Church of Almighty God can be seen in everywhere, and many people have heard their gospel. Some accept it, and some refused. If what the Chinese government said is true, then many people would have had their ears cut off and their eyes gouged out. If there were one case like this, wouldn’t the news be spread throughout the world by the media a long time ago? My cousin has personally listened to the gospel preached by the Church of Almighty God, but he doesn’t accept it. In fact, his ears were not cut off and his eyes were not gouged out. So I think when people say something on the Internet, they should have evidences to support their words, and we should not believe the rumors blindly, much less parrot the words of others!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.3.61.73 (talk) 19:44, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Cousin's eyes not gouged out

message: There is another website apparently maintained by Eastern Lightning up and running: http://english.thelordsadvent.org/word/index.php 70.52.221.49 23:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Website 2007

message: This article and Dongfang Shandian are essentially the same in concept and content, so they should be merged. TML (talk) 20:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Any idea which name is more common, and so should be the target of the merge?  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 21:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger 

message: A lot of overseas Chinese Christian groups with ties in the mainland are reporting that this cult has made a habit out of kidnapping, torturing, and brainwashing legitimate Christians in an attempt to gather more followers. Does anyone know more about it?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shimo1989 (talk • contribs) 17:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Widespread torture and kidnappings? 

message: It's mentioned in the first source.--Jsjsjs1111 (talk) 17:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  cult 

message: 1) It appears the first external link to the church's website has changed. Propose to link old site thru web archive, and update church site link to http://www.holyspiritspeaks.org/
2) The Church seems to have responded to the BBC coverage of the McDonald murder. The Church believes BBC is CCP (Chinese government's) spokesman. Propose to add this if it's not too First Person
http://www.holyspiritspeaks.org/special-topics/
Bobby fletcher (talk) 22:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed Update 

message: , 
The lead description I am seeing for this group is "cult" vs. "terrorist".
I'm not sure how else to get results comparison, there are more results for "eastern lightning" as a cult than a terrorist organization
Here's what we see:
cult
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b23f7d90-4a95-11e2-968a-00144feab49a.html#axzz3XrWlVO5H 
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/world/asia/china-eastern-lightning-killing/
http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-chinese-cult-who-kidnap-christians-and-paint-snakes
Terrorist
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/335977/once-chinese-arrests-have-nothing-do-religious-freedom-jillian-kay-melchior
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/army-god-6-modern-day-christian-terrorist-groups-you-never-hear-about
http://thediplomat.com/2014/06/chinas-other-religious-problem-christianity/
If you look at the searches, many of the sources that say "terrorist" also use "cult"
http://www.chinaforjesus.com/EL_development.htm
http://www.baptistpress.com/13669/34-chinese-ministers-released-from-cult-kidnapping-email-announces
http://www.economist.com/news/china/21614243-murder-mcdonalds-has-given-party-pretext-attacking-old-foe-no-cult-zone
We should include "new religious movement" in the lead descriptive sentence of this article. Yes, they are violent, but the main sources for the terrorist claim are based on the Salon/Alternet article that tried to show a double standard. This is not a case of that double standard. The LRA, and most anti-abortion violence is all about that violence,  EL is different. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 15:39, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: We can put in both references, but it is often described as an NRM. This has nothing to do with trying to whitewash Christianity. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 15:48, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: "Act of terrorism, terrorism, terrorist act - the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear." It is certainly a terrorist organisation, simply stating a "new religious movement" is highly misleading. I would suggest a compromise; "...Chinese Christian terrorist organisation and cult." DocHeuh (talk) 15:58, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I did say we could put in both. How about Eastern Lightning (Chinese: 东方闪电; pinyin: Dōngfāng Shǎndiàn) is a millennial Chinese Christian terrorist organizationhttp://thediplomat.com/2014/06/chinas-other-religious-problem-christianity/http://www.baptistpress.com/13669/34-chinese-ministers-released-from-cult-kidnapping-email-announceshttp://thediplomat.com/2014/06/chinas-other-religious-problem-christianity/http://www.economist.com/news/china/21614243-murder-mcdonalds-has-given-party-pretext-attacking-old-foe-no-cult-zone and new religious movement http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b23f7d90-4a95-11e2-968a-00144feab49a.html#axzz3XrWlVO5H http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/06/world/asia/china-eastern-lightning-killing/http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-chinese-cult-who-kidnap-christians-and-paint-snakeshttp://www.chinaforjesus.com/EL_development.htm. 
I know you want to include "terrorist organization" first, and I understand why, but it appears that "cult" predominates in sources. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 16:18, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terrorist organization or cult? Lead descriptive sentence 

message: So, they say God is Yang Xiangbin, or Zhao Weishan? The text is ambiguos on this point. --181.170.254.175 (talk) 19:20, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification needed 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Please consider
*Adding attribution rather than simply removing the source
*Finding alternative sources yourselves rather than driveby tagging
*Explaining on the talk page what might be wrong with the source, aside from simply saying - it's the nasty Chinese government.
Edaham (talk) 09:54, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  People coming to knock out People's daily sources 

message: Two websites (currently) - Geri Ungurean (copied in several mirror sites) and Eddy and Emma's blog - allege that Christian Holy City Church is an alias for Eastern Lightning (and hence, to be avoided). Geri Ungurean also lists other alleged aliases.
An often shared Facebook post about Christian Holy City Church's efforts to recruit translators contains links to reports on Eastern Lightning, implying links. There are many pages about this translation drive throughout the internet, many also shown on the Facebook post.
One page on the Christian Holy City Church website does indeed mention Eastern Lightning.
There do seem to be similarities and links - but none of the sources above seem authoritative or reputable enough to include in the main Eastern Lightning article here. The people responsible for Christian Holy City Church headquarters (in New York) are variously listed on public databases as Mudan Weng and Rui Hua Zheng, but a simple search does not show either of these names as clearly linked with Eastern Lightning.
Perhaps someone able to search in Chinese might be able to find clearer evidence of this link, if there is one?
Ozaru (talk) 10:38, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Trying to find a link by ourselves would be WP:OR. Wikipedia is not for investigative journalism. We should wait for reliable sources and due weight. --Jancarcu (talk) 19:10, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connection with "Christian Holy City Church" 

message: Bitter Winter has exposed another attack against the CAG by the CCP, who are blaming the Church for a family suicide in a defamation campaign. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 06:16, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shenzhen Family Suicide 

message: We do not want to insult this church, but  is totally not WP:NPOV and it is totally inappropriate for a WP:MAINSTREAM encyclopedia. tgeorgescu (talk)  02:09, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit war