Talk:Asturleonese language

message: quoting:
"asturianu, or bable, in the Spanish province of Asturias; Leonese language, llïonés, in parts of the provinces of León, Zamora and Salamanca and in the District of Bragança (Portugal); and Mirandese in Miranda do Douro (Portugal)"
Leonese is NOT spoken in Portugal. The only astur-leonese language in Portugal is Mirandese, spoken in Miranda do Douro, District of Bragança. Unless you consider all the three languages to be the same language, which doesn't seem to be the case.
I suggest you change to "asturianu, or bable, in the Spanish province of Asturias; Leonese language, llïonés, in parts of the provinces of León, Zamora and Salamanca; and Mirandese in Miranda do Douro, District of Bragança (Portugal)"
McKagan 20:33 11 November 2009 (GMT)
The article seems to imply that the varieties of astur-leonese spoken in Rio Onor (which are now extinct) are closer to Leonese instead of Mirandese. The source (2) doesn't make it clearer. In the source, when Rionorese is mentioned as a variety of Leonese, so is Mirandese. Unless Rionorese was actually closer to Leonese than Mirandese, this should be changed.
McKagan 11:59 10 October 2011 (GMT)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.136.114.141 (talk)  
:Rionor and Guadramil are very close to the Spanish border, and very far from Mirando do Douro. Check Google maps, for instance. That should be proof enough. Jotamar (talk) 11:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The map must be wrong. I've added a very clear source. -Jotamar (talk) 02:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Leonese spoken in Portugal?

message: What is the relation with the Leonese language? Is it the same or not? Belgian man 11:12, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: That depends on when a language becomes a language group. There are several related Astur-Leonese dialects from East Asturias to Extremadura. There is an Academy working for an Asturian standard. I don't know if there is some attention to Leonese features. -- Error 01:09, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Thanks! Belgian man 18:48, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Leonese

message: I commented this out:
:"Speakers are prevented from using it in its daily life because neither the administration nor private institutions will accept documents written in Asturian and usually do not pay attention to people trying to deal with them in Asturian."
I've grown up with a minority language not used by administration or (large) private institutions, though this never kept anyone from using the language in daily life... Guaka 00:56, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The language is NOT an invention. It exists, and has been spoken for a very limited extent during centuries, specially in the mountain regions of León. Now it's true that Leonese autonomists have greatly exaggerated the importance of Leonese and to a certain extent distorted history: I'm a Leonese and Leonese language is not my heritage, the language of my ancestors for generations has been Castillian. But Leonese IS a genuine language, if quite almost dead. (UNSIGNED)
I'd also like to add that while many do not pay attention to the claims of those seeking greater political autonomy for the province/city, there is an increasing impact on youth.--eleuthero 06:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Not very plausible

message: The article doesn't directly define the title. Asturian is one of the languages in the Asturian-Leonese branch, as well as Mirandese. Saying that Asturian is official in Portugal under the name Mirandese makes as much sense as saying that Mirandese is unnoficial in Spain and known under the name Asturian. The correct would be to either name this article Asturo-Leonese/Leonese or erasing/adapting the Mirandese and Leonese parts of it.
Leonese is NOT an invention and it is NOT almost dead as some of you say. Still some leonese writers publish books in the leonese langauge. In some part of the north of Leon, where I come from, even young people learn and speak daily the leonese lanaguage even though most of them do not even release or do it constantly. My parents spoke leonese which then they tough me and that is the same way I will teach my sons. A recent study of the language in the north of Leon done by the Asturian Language Academy states that still about 30.000 people use leonese daily and even a bigger amount use it mixed with castillian.
Well, 30,000 speakers out of well over a million, that's what I call almost dead. Unoffensive text or character 09:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It depends on how those speakers are distributed geographically. If they're old people scattered throughout the country, that's bad. If they're concentrated in certain communities (villages and small towns), the language can still be a viable community language, as in the Gaeltachtaí in Ireland. For an even more extreme example, about 60,000 speakers of Faroese in Denmark, a country of about 5.7 million, doesn't sound like a lot if you don't know that most of them are concentrated on the isolated Faroese archipelago and form a tight-knit and vibrant community who care about their language very much, and include plenty of child speakers. Numbers alone never tell the whole story, and you see the same with native languages in North America, a few of which are still very vigorous and have devoted communities using them. In the Caucasus, a language may be limited to a single village of a few thousand inhabitants, but not endangered at all because all of them use the language regularly in daily life as their main language, including the children. On the other hand, languages spoken by millions in Central Asia or Indonesia may be acutely endangered because only the older generation uses them anymore. That's why you always need to know the sociolinguistic structure, not just raw numbers. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:35, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title and mirandese inclusion 

message: I propose to (a) merge Mirandese language here, as a sub-section of a new "Dialects" section; and then (b) move this article to "Astur-Leonese language". 
Rationale: This article is called "Asturian language" but apparently covers "Astur-Leonese", including Leonese and Mirandese.  The differences between the three languages seem to be small, and many sources consider them dialects of the same language.
There is a Mirandese language article that claims significant differences from Asturian, but judging from Talk:Mirandese language the evidence is hard to come by.
The Leonese language article was just a stub with no significant info, so I already made it into a redirect to the present article.
The merge would concentrate the scarce edit efforts, reduce duplication of information, and give readers a better view of the whole branch.  Also, it seems unlikely that separate Mirandese and Leonese articles will grow to a size comparable to that of Asturian any time soon. 
Given its present contents, and assuming Mirandese language is merged into it, the name "Astur-Leonese language" is more accurate than "Asturian language".
:No Mirandese is an officialy recognised language of Portual. Astur-Leonese is not a language it is a language group. No matter how small the differences in your 'opinion' one is an officialy recognised language, the other is not.
:Maybe. If an english-speaking country stops legally recognizing english, that doesn't magically make the local english dialect not english. Furthermore, if you look on the Asturian wikipedia, you can see at the top that it includes Mirandese. From this and the opinions/research of others, I believe Mirandese should be considered a dialect.
:However, there are examples on our own Wikipedia where the same language is listed differently for political reasons. The example I'm thinking of is Romanian language and Moldovan language (they're the same language!!!) The Moldovan language page explicitly states that fact, however. Here's what I suggest. Either:
*Merge the two, if the combined article is not too long and is unlikely to become too long.
*Keep them separate, and explicitly state that Mirandese is a dialect of the Asturian language, recognized differently for political reasons.
:Those are my thoughts. Grandmasterka 16:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed rename and merge 

message: "is disputed the fact of speaking a dialect of Spanish Language or a variety of Astur-Leonese."
What does this mean in English? I would be bold and correct it but I haven't the least idea whatsoever what it means. Is the writer trying to say,
"There is a dispute as to whether Cantabrian is a dialect of Astur-Leonese or simply a dialect of Spanish."
OR does it mean,
"There is a dispute as to whether Cantabrian and Extramaduran are dialects of Astur-Leonese or simply dialects of Spanish."
OR something else I haven't thought of. 
You'll notice that the two sentences above have completely different meanings, and to be honest the way it's written right now I don't know which is right. At any rate, that phrase shouldn't be tacked on to the back of the sentence like a caboose. --Charlene 23:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: What the heck does this even mean?

message: The paragraph (or rather sentence) on language basics is, excuse me, pure nonsense. Or is this basically castellano?
El Llïonés ye una llingua que carez de reconocencia oficial nenguna y qu’apenas tien tan siquiera reconocencia llegal cona eseición de Miranda del Douru (estáu pertués) onde tien un rangu de cooficialidá al empar que’l pertués. Menos entovía posibilidá de deprendizax nas escuelas ou cualquier outra istitución académica pública, al pesiare de los informes de la Unesco, Unión Europea y milentos chamamientos d’espertos llinguistas de mediu mundu del sou inminente riesgu de desapaición polas presiones d’outras llinguas comu’l gallegu-pertués y el castellán, qu’invaden selemente’l dominu llinguísticu llïonés. 
Though I am not familiar with the current linguistic situation (from what I read, Asturo-Leones is on its way to extinction), I can assure you that the language that used to be spoken by peasants in Asturias and Leon in the first half of the 20th century was very much distinct from Castellano.Unoffensive text or character 09:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect it's very artificial and modelled on Spanish, basically a literal translation. Of course it's nothing like spontaneous everyday speech, but then, how else would you translate a formal text like this to Asturian? If you translate a formal, written text about a topic like this from Standard German to Bavarian dialect, it sounds very unnatural, stilted and foreign too, depending on how literal the translation is, but a not-too-literal translation can sound silly, clumsy and weird too because traditional Bavarian is not well suited to talk about many topics; many words are missing, for once, so you need to use Standard German words or use paraphrases. The only solution is to expand, standardise and formalise the language (Ausbau), especially with neologisms (newly coined words), but the result will always sound unusual and foreign to native speakers, and they will probably not understand it nor accept the result as genuine – unless they have studied the new, expanded, standardised and formalised form of their language. As a less politically charged parallel, consider what happens when you try to translate a modern text into an ancient language such as Latin. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:50, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Language basics

message: Most interwikis are wrong. Only these are correct: 
*ca:Asturlleonès
*es:Asturleonés
*eu:Asturleonera
*gl:Asturleonés
*pt:Asturo-leonês
The others do not separate the linguistic group from asturian language, which is just one of the languages that belongs to Astur-leonese group.
Note: I do not want to put the asturian interwiki ast:Dominiu llingüísticu astur because of its doubtful credibility. --Galician 14:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Interwikis 

message: One thing I noticed is there isn't an explanation on not only how this group differs from the neighboring Castilian, but also how they differ from each other. I hear arguments that they are all separate languages, but I think it would be helpful if someone knowledgeable could explain this in the article. I have reviewed Asturian and can see the difference from Castilian, but I do wonder how much different could the other ones be.  Kman543210 (talk) 02:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Language Differences

message: The analyses recently included in the lead strike me as speculative and with little informative substance. In addition, they contain at least one gross mistake. Before I remove them, I'd like to hear other opinions.  Jotamar (talk) 17:50, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I proceed to remove the analyses. Jotamar (talk) 14:38, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Analyses 

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