Talk:Pantheism/Archive 1

message: The most recent revisions of this page need to be copyedited -- I don't know enough on this subject to know if they are good or bad edits.
From Naturyl:
I'm new to Wikipedia and am not sure if this is the correct way to respond to your comments above. If not, please direct me to information on how to properly respond to "talk" pages such as this.
Regarding the subject matter, I wrote most of the article in question and can verify that although it has been edited a few times, the article remains relevant and on-point. As a member of the Universal Pantheist Society Board of Directors, I feel that I am qualified to make a determination as to the accuracy of the piece. Please keep in mind that although I am associated with a pantheist organization, I am mindful of NPOV. By and large, it is a fair and accurate summary, although it could probably be considerably expanded. If no one does this in the near future, I will probably take care of it myself.
Thanks,
Nat 04:57, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Naturyl building the original article

message: and I, as a "classical pantheist" have given the page a NPOV overhaul. There stills needs to be an in depth discussion as to the personal vrs. impersonal and concious vrs. unconcious God.  JackLynch 21:23, 30 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  the nature of God 

message: Whats the deal? Why do you think we should revert this guy? Is he User:216.99.245.149, who placed links to the cosmotheism website? If so he sure didn't seem like a vandal to me, and I didn't really agree w that revert. Lets talk about things, and put the "Pan" back in pantheism ;) Jack 02:47, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needle? 

message: Yes, User:216.99.245.149 is the guy known elsewhere as Needle. I'm totally confident that time will vindicate what I've said here. If he sticks around, you'll understand my concern soon enough. That's all I have to say on the matter at the moment.
Oh, and also, have a look at this...
http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Cosmotheism&action=history
:Yep, I've been watching that article too. I don't mind his edits myself, in fact the only real area of concern appears to be the shared animosity between the two of you, and the left/right communist/nazi accusations going back and forth. What annoys me is that he hasn't made an account yet. Also I can't fathom how pantheism, cosmotheism, or any of it mixes nicely with rascism, for if God is all, a negro is... still part of God. Of course it won't mix w marxism at all, since commies are atheists :). Jack 23:08, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wait and see. 

message: I think not. If this is your agenda, please edit the Atheism article. If you must, place a paragraph in the article clearly and honestly expressing your view that "atheism and pantheism can be seen as compatible". So long as you make it clear that this is the POV of some (your organization, clearly) I have no problem with that. I myself see it as Doublespeak, but thats my POV. We don't have to have the same POV, just the same love for truth and academic standards in regards to the wiki. In a way, it is ironic that a concept like "pantheism" (theoretically THE faith of inclusionism) has attracted 3 such uncomprimising adherants, with seemingly a common ground only in their love for wiki :) Jack 00:12, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pantheism=Atheism? 

message: But it is *compatible* with atheism, in the view of most modern adherents. The World Pantheist Movement agrees, as does the Universal Pantheist Society, as does the Pantheist Awareness Network. The WPM< by the way, is an organization with which I have no affiliation, and it is also the largest panthesit organization in the world. Together, these three organizations represent the vast majority of self-professed pantheists active on the internet. I'm curious as to why they are all wrong and you are right...
:me too... whats the size of your membership? or theirs? How do those numbers compare to the combined total of worldwide Hindu's, who define themselves as pantheistic? ;) Jack 00:27, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  No, pantheism does not = atheism... 

message: Also known as the Bandwagon fallacy, this argument that "x is compatable with y because z people believe it" is unhelpful. I am right because I am right. You can study any dictionary or encyclopedia, or any source what-so-ever other than your own organizations, and discover this to be the case. Theism is the opposite of atheism, no matter what sort of Theism it is. Anyways, I agree that whoever blanked the talk page is a vandal, and should be reported to the Vandalism in progress page. I'm gonna do that right now. Jack 01:02, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  appeal to the people? 

message: Regarding reporting the vandalism, I already did it, but some extra corroboration won't hurt.
Anyhow, since you've admitted that the basis of your argument is "I'm right because I'm right," it looks like I was correct in predicting that we wouldn't get far with this discussion. You can't credibly accxuse someone of a fallacy while introducing a much bigger fallacy, you know. "I'm right and you're wrong because I said so" isn't a particularly compelling line of reasoning. :)
This is all in good sport, though, and I do appreciate your civility. 
-Nat
:Sorry, but due to edit conflict the following text will be in regards to your previous comment, not the one directly above. It is as follows: also, irregardless of your definition of Hinduism as Pantheism or Panentheism, it is abundantly clear to me that the members of the three organizations you listed (and that cosmotheist group as well) are the smallest fraction of what is a rather reasonable and easilly imagined philosophy (a philosophy apparently not to be found within your organization, from what I have seen). In short, I don't agree that your organization is in anyway pantheistic at all, quite the opposite. And being a "classical" as well as an intedenominational (isn't that what pantheism is all about???) Pantheist, I am quite disturbed to find you expecting me (or anyone else for that matter) to accept the views of your denomination as speaking for all of pantheism, just as any good methodist would be shocked to hear a Episcopaleon speaking for all Christendom ;) BTW, I moved our complaint to the top of Vandalism in progress, so it will be in accordance with the linear sequence of the page. Jack 01:19, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
replies: text: I likewise appreciate civility, and I pray that all of this effort and chiseling will have a positive outcome for the wiki, and our respective souls :) Jack 01:21, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pantheism isn't really "theism" anymore... and that's where all the terminological trouble starts! 

message: Can you live with the most recent edit? I removed nothing substantial.
As for your claim of pantheism needing to be inclusive, please remember that it is you who are referring to the largest pantheist organizations in the world as "not in any way pantheistic at all."
I'm not speaking for all pantheists. In fact, as far as the Wiki is concerned, I'm not speaking for *any* pantheists, including those who agree with me. I am speaking for the facts. The facts show that all major pantheist authorities today accept naturalistic pantheism as a valid interpretation, and that interpretation is in fact the most widespread among people who refer to themselves specifically as 'pantheist.' Far from being POV, I think I've gone out of my way to make allowance for the dualistic view - despite the fact that its adherents are a minority in the community of people who identify themselves as 'pantheists.'.
I am absolutely NOT here to do a POV hack job in order to promote my own beliefs. I'm not suggesting that you are, either. Hopefully we can both continue to keep in mind that we are seeking the same goal - fair and accurate treatment of the subject matter.
-Nat
:The recent edit is entirely satisfactory. It is clear to me that you are focused on the quality of the article, irregardless of your POV. I would also like to include informations/links regarding the Cosmotheist, Cosmologist and any other organizations/concepts/ways of describing religious philosophy, which are considered applicable to this subject (such as an in depth discussion as to the personal vrs. impersonal and concious vrs. unconcious God). I am perfectly willing to have information provided from friends of Dr. William Pierce as well as anyone else, assuming that they adapt to the ways of wiki. Cheers, Jack 02:10, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soloution 

message: gave the pantheism page a rewrite, and created a seperate pages for Classical and naturalistic pantheism. My primarary goal was to make the page as coherant and Utilitarian as possible for the common reader. I realize that there is a great deal of disagreement on issues of theology, politics, and what-have-you among our tiny community of self-proclaimed pantheists, but I want to focus on where we agree. For the good of the common reader, the general public. I am sure we all agree that the majority of pantheists are unaware of the term. Let this be a entry that informs them, rather than confuses and upsets them with debates. I do see a need for debate, and the discussion of it, but I don't think it merits more than a paragraph in this article. The seperate articles classical pantheism and Naturalistic Pantheism as well as Cosmotheism are a fine place to place longer discussions of doctrinal and fractional differences. I strongly implore anonymous user to create an account, and to provide detailed documentation of your docrtines on the cosmotheism page. I would love to learn more, and while I would like to add to that page, I admit my relative ignorence of your organization, and the particulars of the hierarcical system. Merry Christmas, Jack 06:52, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  I have made some changes 

message: I don't think you are a vandal. 
"I am not a vandal". Thanks. :D
I do think mistakes have been made, and you have some work to do. Naturyl... while mistakes have been made, I do not agree with unnecessary reverts. If Paul makes a positive, or even neutral, heck, even a slightly bad edit, do not revert. That is against the wikiphilosophy. 
"Thank you, Jack. 
The only reverts I do are only for greater accuracy and objectivity."
Check out Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot. Please try to get along, not only for the good of the wiki, but for the good of the earth. Indeed, our kindness and tolerance for one another is one of the most sincere ways to obey God. Thank you for your support. Jack 03:30, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul 

message: Oh boy. We've got one of those "let's be fair to Needle and give him a chance" types involved now... this will drag everything out twice as long.
"And why not? 
Because "Naturyl" can't stand to let the "other side of the story" ever be told "objectively" in any truely "open" forum.
What else isn't new?"
I know this from experience because I WAS one of those types. I have unbanned Needle from my forums more times than anyone else on the Internet, I have given him more chances than anyone else by far. I've learned, the hard way, that all such leeway and patience is wasted on Needle. 
"In other words, "Needle" has the terrible "personal integrity" to always and only say what he means and mean what he says, and whether it is actually marxist "politically correct" or not."
No matter how many chances you give him, the result is going to be the same, so it's best to get it over with. As I told you, Jack, I have three years experience with this guy, yet like all the others (including myself three years ago), you will not listen to those who have been there, you have to find out for yourself. Such is the way of life, I suppose. 
"The actual pantheist "way of life" is NOT to ban and censor all of those of which and of whom you just happen to disagree, but, that has been the "way of life" for "Naturyl" and for his marxist "pan-atheist" ilk for well over three years and counting. My many years experience with fighting against the marxist-atheistic-pc banning and censoring of the whole truths of reality is personal evidence of that fact."
JackLynch and all others will eventually come to understand the futility of dealing with Needle, as I did. When Needle is banned (and he WILL be), my comments on this page and others will be vindicated.
Until then, I'm leaving the Wiki. Take care, Jack, and others.
Nat
----
"I am really very easy to deal with by all of those actually having "personal integrity" meaning all of those that do mean what they say and that do say what they really mean. 
If Jack and any others of wiki do have such "personal integrity" then it will not be "Needle" that is banned nor "Naturyl" that will be "vindicated". 
Only such marxist-pc cowards like "Naturyl" do run away when there is any even playing field and when all ideas, whether marxist-pc or not, are actually allowed to compete fairly and openly without any deceptive censorship "rules" to falsely "throw" the game."
Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE
http://www.cosmotheism.net
----
I also oppose censorship and intend for all of us to successfully contribute to a better wiki, and as a True pantheist, I furthermore intend to explain to everyone how we agree deep down, on the fundamentals. Lets forget about our ego's and our pasts, and focus on the work of understanding God, and explaining him to others. Jack 04:26, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oh, jeez... 

message: I would like to hear more from Paul about a personal vrs. impersonal God. 
"Ok."
Is your (I assume your, you are Cosmotheist, correct?) Cosmotheist God personal?
"Yes, I am a COSMOTHEIST, and the factual answer to your question as to whether any true Cosmotheists' GOD is a personal or is an impersonal one, the correct answer is the term "MU", meaning both/and at one and the same time."
Is he involved in your life?
"Yes, of course, he and it are both involved in my life."
Does he communicate with you?
"Yes, of course he and it does communicate with me."
My God certainly is and does.
"As well as it should be and certainly should do, Jack."
This is an area I would like to explore, as it is tremendously important, and is not given enough time in the verious pantheistic articles. Jack 04:27, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Personal God 

message: not having an account leads people to assume you are a vandal, particularly when you make questionable edits."
Let them "assume" what they will, I am NOT a "vandal" and I have not made any "questionable edits" but only edits for "greater factual accuracy and objectivity". If that is not what your Wikipedia Encyclopedia is really all about then so be it.
"I agree that you should be reverted less, but I myself will continue to revert you so long as you a) don't have an account and b) you make edits which strongly appear to reduce the quality of the article."
The "quality" of any article should be based upon both "factual accuracy" and "objectivity" which is exactly what my edits have always striven to do. 
By this standard, the "quality" of these articles by only your own "reverts" and by those of such biased and subjective "others" has only compromised those very same standards.
"Whats best for everyone is a sound, accurate article."
The "quality" of any article should be based upon both "factual accuracy" and "objectivity" which is exactly what my edits have always striven to do. 
"And if you don't like the peirce page, create an account and get to work on it! cheers, Jack 01:10, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  '''Create an account''' 

message: why are you being silly? Sam Spade 19:37, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  paul 

message: Is there some particular reason why you dislike the redirect? I much prefer it how it was, and in fact would like to see Hinduism redirect to a page titled Sanatana Dharma :) Sam Spade 18:26, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sanatana Dharma 

message: One way to describe pantheism is to say "you are to God, as an individual blood cell in your vein is to you." While a cell may be aware of its own environs, and even has some choices (freewill) between right and wrong (killing a bacteria, becoming malignant, or perhaps just doing nothing, among countless others) it likely has little conception of the greater being of which it is a part. 
Are we to believe that our blood cells are sentient beings? :-\ I'm removing this as nonsense. --Tothebarricades.tk 01:27, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: yes, we are. Please don't remove large blocks of textprior to discussion. Sam [Spade] 12:22, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough, but I think a better analogy should be put there. I'm not feeling clever enough at the moment. --Tothebarricades.tk 18:25, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I wrote that particular analogy, and it has been proof-read, discussed and edited over the last year or so since I wrote it, so I am unlikely to provide a superior wording. In my experience its a pretty handy way to convey both the relationship between man and an all inclusive, immanant God, and to remove the egocentric and unnecessary asumption of sentience being unique to humanity. My particular POV assumes all things are conscious, every animal, rock and planet and down to every cell and quark, but maybe thats just the pantheist in me. Regardless of the accuracy of this worldview, I think it is a valid and useful method of explaining our relationship to existance. Sam [Spade] 15:09, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Just some fool with his two cents here--I think it's fine.  No one's going to be able to come up with a "better" analogy because (I think) there aren't really any microscopic intelligences and the theoretical macroscopic intelligence of, say, corporations or nations is conjectural and could be struck down for the same reason.  There's nothing intelligent inside of something else intelligent, as far as we know.  Still, a person understands a cell and a person understands a person, and understands the former is a component of the latter.  Cell:Human::Human:God  --165.134.186.198 20:28, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, God would be the macro-intelligence, and man the micro-intelligence. I understand sentience is a controversial subject, some even doubt their own sentience. I'm pretty sure what I wrote was neutral, and I didn't mean to claim there was proof of conscious cells. Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 21:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  second paragraph 

message: I don't disagree w your edits generally, but I didn't like the depiction of the contrast between atheist "pantheists", and theist pantheists. This debate is quite signifigant, and has wrecked not just a little havok on this very page in the past. One particularly severe and long term problem (there have been more than one) involved me (a classical pantheist), a naturalistic pantheist, and a peircean cosmotheist all editing simultaneously. Needless to say there was quite a bit of trouble keeping the page clean of POV. The pearcean phreaked out and got got banned, the naturalist largely stopped editing, and I'm still here (not a particularly unusual wiki-tale, I suppose...). Anywho, I welcome additions to the page, but I feel its important to clarify this page has been rather controversial in the past, and therefore NPOV must be stressed. Also, why did you feel the section headers were bad? I largely kept your format, but installed section headers to make it more readable. Thoughts? Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 16:56, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Please don't do that. Hasn't pantheism suffered enough here on Wikipedia? A merge with panentheism would be incredibly inappropriate. Pantheism is distinguishable from panentheism in a number of very important ways. I realize that the bias toward "classical" dualistic pantheism (which is similar to panentheism) is remarkably strong here, but to merge the two subjects would be a colossal error. If you must do it, merge the "classical" articles with panentheism, and leave naturalistic pantheism alone, so that the 75% or more of the modern pantheist community who are naturalistic can be accurately represented. If there can't be a good general-purpose pantheism article, we can at least have one related NPOV article on Wikipedia. --Nat 14:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

text: My compliments on your on your thoughtful reply to my critique. The "atheism for nature lovers" is definitely not unique to you, I've heard that a few times myself (the above mentioned cosmotheist used it, for example ;). The thing about the section headers is interesting. I'm not sure what to say about that. I ad section headers as often as possible as I think it eases ones ability to locate desired info (not to mention making it much easier to edit). However, I'd be open to some discussion on it, maybe a "rule of thumb" regarding length before sectioning would be handy. The part about tautology is slightly original research, i admit. Atheists have often accused me of tautology (whats so bad about tautology anyhow? ;) for saying "God = Existence". It can be removed if it isn't better explained, since I doubt I can reference it. As far as panentheism... this is a difficult subject. If you provide me a list of the articles in question, I'd be glad to set to work merging them w the panentheism article, but alot of people see panentheism as distinct from pantheism. Indeed, the whole question of atheism is a major factor there, since panentheism seems to rule out an unconscious God, while spinoza (many peoples introduction to pantheism) seemed to think Gods unconsciousness was clear (I never did understand him on that). Glad to have you here, and interested in hearing your reply. Cheers, Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 18:07, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major edits by BM 

message: The problems discussed in my critique remain largely unaddressed, and there is still a heavy POV bias against naturalistic pantheism. For example, the following:
Their opposite, adherents of Naturalistic Pantheism (such as the World Pantheist Movement), believe in an unconscious, non-sentient universe, which, while being holy and beautiful, is seen as being a God in a non-traditional and impersonal sense. This second group is vigorously criticised both within and outside the pantheist community as being "atheism for nature lovers", with perjoratives such as Pan-Atheism, and Pseudo-pantheism used in their regards.
This sort of biased description makes naturalistic pantheism sound like the "bad seed" and the "black sheep" of pantheism. Naturalistic pantheism is "vigorously criticised both within and outside the pantheist community?" No more so than so-called classical pantheism, which is actually the minority view within the "pantheist community," if the pantheist community is the community of self-declared pantheists. Naturalistic pantheism is by far the dominant view among those who describe themselves specifically as "pantheists."
In addition, "pan-atheism" is a neologism invented by the banned user Paul Vogel, which should have been on VFD ages ago. What's more, pseudo-pantheism once contained a reference to Vogel's Cosmotheism (a true psuedo-pantheism) which was removed by Vogel himself, and ironically, the term is now being used in reference to Naturalistic Pantheism.
Why Sam Spade (a known Vogel sympathizer) is being allowed to do this to pantheism is beyond me. The article is slightly better, but not nearly good enough. It is still both inaccurate and highly POV.
I've indicated that I don't want to rewrite this article in the past, and I still don't want to. However, because I have refused to do so, Wikipedia has had a poor-quality article on pantheism for almost a year now. I don't know how much longer I'll allow it. I may edit soon.
--Nat 14:12, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I encourage you to edit, but caution you to be aware of your own over-riding POV. For example, I am in no way a "vogel sympathizer", the number of times I reverted him alone should attest to that, much less comments such as this one, where I illustrate why I could not advocate against his being banned. In summary, please do edit, but please don't do so in a hostile or POV manner. Sam Spade Wants you to vote! 15:09, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  It's still POV 

message: Direct worship of Brahman is most applicable to this article, I believe. Specifics about Hindu faiths which are less pantheistic, focusing on gods other than brahman, is less applicable. Also, I reverted some strange comments by Acidmonkey in the Judaism section. Cheers,  01:59, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brahminism 

message: I think we need to be careful to keep this content focused on pantheism. Usage of fire in worship, for example, is not directly applicable to this page. I really think a link to brahminism would be beneficial, but i am willing to wait on that. I disagree that Arya Samaj rejects the formful god, rather they consider both the formful and the formless to be combined in the absolute, unless I am mistaken. 12:22, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I use brahmanism because it clarifies the focus on brahman. What else might you call one who worships brahman directly? Smarta is of course not an acceptable substitute in this case. I am aware of the importance of fire in Hinduism, but I think you understand that this is is not a factor in the discussion of pantheism. If what you seem to be saying about arya samaj is true, that arya samaj does not understand brahman to be both the formful and the formless, than arya samaj is not pantheist at all, and should not be mentioned here. However, that is not how I interpret their doctrines. I wish we had an arya samaj adherant available to ask...  17:19, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pantheism in Hinduism 

message: :: I wish to propose an entry into pantheism as to how cosmotheists see God, the universe and Nature as not only one, but one process towards a final outcome. I propose this because in pantheism, it says cosmothiests dont have a clear picture of what their god is, or what god is. I am here to tell you that is wrong, cosmotheism has a precise understanding of what god is. I ask you to consider this and allow it to be added to cosmotheism. Here is goes....
Cosmotheism, is a small and controversial racialist group which considers itself a form of pantheism. Through a big picture lens, Cosmotheism has a Transhumanist interpretation of God as the final product of self-directed racial, creative and conscious evolution. God is thus the final stage of a pantheist universe which does not exist at present, but will exist in the future. Cosmotheism sees the pantheist universe of the present and past as a kind of metaphorical pre-programmed blind and brute force mathematical equation unravelling as a cosmic process and transformation which unconsciously is going through stages of development towards an end point of God. More importantly, God in cosmotheism is not only an end point, but how one gets there is an extremely important, specific and precise path. Taking a step back and looking into the past, cosmotheists see life coming into existence as a product of purpose from this blind and unconscious cosmic evolution of the pantheist universe. During unconscious lifes explosion of variety and brute force evolution over time, at some point life as a whole crosses a stage where a sub set combination occurs within its variation possessing iminent consciousness - or sentience. Cosmotheism thus sees as the present embodiment of the divine purpose and highest stage of consciousness in life within the European people. More specifically, Cosmotheists believe that only special racially awakened members within the descendents of Europe reflect the universes highest level of the creative and continued urge towards Godhood. Racism is then perceived in this racialist version of pantheism as the necessary force to create a distinct speciation or narrow evolutionary path towards the universe continuing its conscious evolution towards Godhood. Thus with this new divine awareness, self-chosen racialists members of the white race use their racist consciousness as a community to see the once dark maze no longer blind or in darkness. With illumination and foresight, the divinely awakened exit the blind maze and then see a clear path, one which directs them into a prescient future of conscious evolution to achieve ever higher states of physical, mental and spiritual being. The higher states of being are stepping stones towards a final omega point of absolute, total and infinite universal consciousness. God in the cosmotheist vision is then the end stage of a pantheist universe attaining a state of absolute, infinite and perfect self-awareness of itself in totality through racist conscious evolution. At this final and completed stage, Godhood in cosmotheism is the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresence consciousness which bridges, merges and converges all the knowledge in the universe, time and space, and the past and future as the one eternal presence of consciousness.
Here is my proposal
Dnagod 00:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Cosmotheism version of God