Talk:Israeli wine

message: Because of the nature of this article, I believe that the dating system used is a little confusing in regards to the fact it centers at least partly around biblical times.  I think the BC/AD system would be more appropriate.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.31.161.57 (talk) 04:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: B.C./A.D.

message: I believe this article is not neutral, indeed, I believe that it reads a bit like propaganda. For instance there is no prizes section in the Australian or French wine articles. There are other examples too.Squall1991 12:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that there are definitely elements of bias in this article. The use of the word "vibrancy" in the intro is a good example of that. However, French wine is known worldwide as the stereotypical paragon of good wine, and Australian wines are also well-distributed and well known. Israeli wines are not - I think that the vast majority of people would be surprised to learn that there even is a significant production of wine in Israel to begin with. Thus, perhaps the use of a prizes section to help indicate the rising popularity and prominence of Israeli wine is not entirely unjustified, no? LordAmeth 13:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the prizes section is unjustified but I believe that it could be written into other parts of the articleSquall1991 03:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: I have (admittedly unilaterally) Decided to rewrite this article to help. I will list all changes I would make here:
1.Making wine over 2000 years before Europe. Not specific enough get an estimate between year-x and year-y or toss in my opinion.
2. I would not put an emphasis on and remove the phrase "the fact" from "despite the fact that the cellars of Givon were built 500 years earlier than the cellars of Champagne, France"
And that is as far as I have got. Plus I would reword the entire section personally but I know people would not like that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Squall1991 (talk • contribs) 07:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewrite

message: Anybody who is interested, a slightly older edition (1999, second edition) of The Oxford Companion to Wine is available here. nableezy - 17:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  conveniance link 

message: Recent edits by the user have introduced information into the article that appears to be from the subsequent offline references. I suspect that the two references do not mention the information that was added and the current version is misleading. --Shuki (talk) 21:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The article implied, actually outright said, in several places that the Golan Heights are in Israel. That is incorrect. In no way are the corrections made "misleading". nableezy - 02:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Nableezy edits

message: The Golan Heights region is not disputed, because Israel does not formally claim it. The Golan Heights Law stops just short of actual annexation. —Ashley Y 14:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: And its not a territory "between Israel and Syria" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I have changed "disputed" to "occupied", since that seemed to be a stale-mate terminology on the Golan Heights article, and Israel has not made any change to its stance regarding the Golan.   I have also left Ashley Y's  tag in, in case the change in terminology is not satisfactory with her. --Nsaum75 (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Disputed" Golan

message: The golan is not a sub region of the Galilee. It is only by Israel considered to be a sub region.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:56, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: From a wine perspective, Golan Heights is a sub-region of the Galilee. This is how it is presented in our reliable sources. AgneCheese/Wine 15:38, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have Agne's sources in front of me, but I'd like to point out that in many countries (at least in Europe) it's not uncommon to have wine regions defined in a slightly different way than politicial/administrative regions. Tomas e (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Defining the Golan Heights as a winemaking sub-region of the Galilee is fine, as long as it is made clear elsewhere in the article that the Golan Heights is in fact regarded as occupied territory. This is the viewpoint of the entire world, save Israel. Tiamuttalk 19:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the reliable sources relating to wine world (including those written and published by French, American and British authors) describe the Golan Heights as an "Israeli wine region". Please keep in mind, we are writing these articles from a wine perspective, not a political one. AgneCheese/Wine 19:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Calling the Golan Heights as "Israeli wine region" is quite different from calling the Golan Heights a "wine region in Israel". In wine articles, distortions of geographical and political facts are not necessary. Tiamuttalk 19:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Agne27. I see you have again removed information regarding the Golan Heights occupied status. I have added more information from a wine source on this subject in this edit. While you claim this is irrelvant to wine source, this article seems to indicate otherwise. I hope you will respect this new addition and reconsider your deletions of Israeli-occupied territories before the mentions of Golan Heights and West Bank. Tiamuttalk 19:44, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: At least your addition and references maintained a wine-based focus. That is fine and much better than a strictly political addition. AgneCheese/Wine 19:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for welcoming the contribution. I have added more material, from another wine article and a followup article to the Sweden labelling system in a non-wine source. I hope they meet with your approval as well. Tiamuttalk 20:14, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  To Agne27 - sub region of Galilee 

message: I added a section about controversy:  and it got reverted, why cant this be in the article? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: While I can't speak for the editor who removed it, I will say that the writing and tone of your section was very inappropriate for this article. It was something that was more fitting for the Golan Heights article itself and again, overly political. The efforts of Tiamut and Nsaum above to keep the content within a wine perspective are accomplishing some of your goals but not steering this article so completely off course into politics. I would follow their lead. AgneCheese/Wine 15:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it was WP:UNDUE.--Shuki (talk) 20:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is coverage of this subject is multiple WP:RS. Perhaps rewording it using some of these sources would help: 
*Syria protests Israel's gift of Golan wine to UN staff in Haaretz
*Syria protests Israel's 'illegal' Golan wine in Al-Arabiya 
*Syria protests Israel Golan wine gift to UN staff in YNET Tiamuttalk 21:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversy section 

message: As with every Wiki article mentioning Israel, the article is heavily censored politically and historically, to the point where inserting a simple  next to a historical claim it's removed immediately.
Like it or not, facts are facts. Whether they align with our interests or the image why try to present, or not. Removing citation tags, or reverting sections with history related to the article that maybe don't shine the best light is censorship, it's manipulation of facts and realities. --Abderrahman (talk) 14:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lots of censoring 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: I reverted this because of its rewriting of the source replacing 'Arab' with 'Christian.
The source states:-
Yet the names of grapes used to make wine in the mid 19th century are known. They included varieties such as Hevroni, Dabouki, Marawi, Halbani, Sharwishi, Hamdani, Jandali amongst the whites and Zeitani, Karkashani, Razaki, Karashi, Baladi amongst the reds. Most were grown in the Bethlehem or Hebron areas primarily by Arabs and the names reflect their Arab origins. These varieties were sold to the few Jewish wineries, in particularly in the Old City of Jerusalem. However they are not used by mainstream wineries, apart from the Cremisan Monastery, which still uses them. 
Dovid I would appreciate if you reconsider your reintroduction of the word 'Christian' because otherwise it would be an inference we are not allowed to make (though I'm certain Christian did take part in wine production). As it stands, with this source, the word 'Christian' is WP:OR unsupported by the source, but feigning to be so. Thanks in anticipation. Nishidani (talk) 19:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the source. . Debresser (talk) 09:18, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Following sources 

message: Change the reference from WHOPROFITS.org to include it inline and attribute it to WHOPROFITS.org.
(Ultimately it shouldn't even be in this article, but at the very least, it needs to be attributed.) Sir Joseph (talk) 23:35, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't tell what you want changed by your description above.  Please place the exact line(s) you want changed, with what you want them changed from and changed to.  Assuming this is a minor type of change unrelated to the protection, then reactivate the edit request above.  If this is related to the protection, please discuss and establish a consensus first before reactivation.  Best regards, — xaosflux Talk 00:46, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, this is in regards to the following sentence, " Several of these terms for Israeli wine-growing regions, such as the Judean Hills, the Golan Heights and the Shimshon, actually refer to areas that are largely Israeli-occupied territories." The reference is to whoprofits.org, as discussed above, at the very least, it should be attributed. I would also remove "Shimshon" since that is in Israel proper. Sir Joseph (talk) 01:24, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no problem with attribution. As above, the apparent neologism Shimshon refers to a broad area part of which falls into the occupied territories. That is a somewhat tricky issue, requiring at least a note to clarify the ambiguity, but best left to talk page consensus.Nishidani (talk) 09:49, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This is source only reliable for it own claims here its WP:UNDUE --Shrike (talk) 12:10, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

text: The statement that the grapes used for these wines are grown in the Occupied Territories is entirely uncontroversial. Does anybody actually have a source which disagrees with this? Boynamedsue (talk) 13:03, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's UNDUE and the source isn't a RS. Sir Joseph (talk) 13:05, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I wouldn't say it is either of those things tbh. Sources from advocacy groups can be RS, especially when they are uncontradicted and pretty evidently true. There are articles in Reuters and the Independent relating to "Israeli" wine actually grown on the Palestinian territories, so I'd say it's fine.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:27, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: If there are articles in mainstream news sources like Reuters that say the same things, we should use them as sources. There's no need to introduce non-reliable advocacy sources in that case. Kenosha Forever (talk) 13:44, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

text: That is just an assertion. nableezy - 13:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

text: This get-rid-of-it argumentation doesn't work.  'Mainstream' sources means basically mainstream newspapers that patchily cover bits and pieces of a reality, and why they should swamp out any documentation that is researched, from an NG0 in this case that writes up detailed analyses of an economic reality no one seriously doubts, is not explicable except if one aims to restrict coverage to fragments in newspaper reportage while sinking links to orderly systematic informational data bases such as that by Who Profits? Just throwing out slogans like WP:RS, WP:Undue without a cogent case is typical o distaste, dislike. Nothing more.Nishidani (talk) 14:17, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

text: Also note that this academic source cites Who Profits several times, bolstering the case for its reliability, as opposed to the assertions offered above that it is just a "non-reliable advocacy source". Theres a reason why bald assertions arent worth much, and this is it. nableezy - 14:21, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I tend to agree with the argument of Nishidani, but in terms of the lede, the new source I added can be used alongside Who Profits?, that should satisfy everybody. A pro-Palestinian advocacy group reporting on wine is clearly relevant for the section on controversy, it is already attributed ao there is no problem there. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:24, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

text: Being mentioned eight times maybe makes it notable, but not reliable by any stretch.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 14:16, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Being cited eight times by peer-reviewed journal articles actually does make it reliable. nableezy - 14:24, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

text: You need to offer argument as to why, I think. The statement its being used for is that various varieties of wine are grown partially in the occupied territories, which I don't think anybody actually disagrees with. Being cited by peer-reviewed publications is one of the things that gives something reliability, it's not something inherent in a person or organisation. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 14 March 2021