Talk:Race of ancient Egyptians/Archive 9

message: Taharqa, does any source reference this image in regards to ancient egypt and race?--Urthogie 23:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Where has it been published that this punt queen relates to ancient egypt and race, then?--Urthogie 23:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Answer the question please.  Users have to discuss their edits if they're challenged.--Urthogie 23:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I believe it's OR because this image is not mentioned by any source in relation to this subject.  Do you agree that it's not mentioned by any source in relation to this subject?--Urthogie 23:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Taharqa is right, Urthogie, OR doesn't apply to images. Relevance applies to Images, and that image is relevant to Punt. However, Punt still needs a mainline Egyptological source stating that the Egyptians believed themselves to have come from punt, or the whole section needs to be cut out. Thanatosimii 01:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: as a photo of an image is it PD though?--Urthogie 01:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, according to a legal case... bridgeman vrs some art library or somthing like that... faithful representations of 2 dimentional art are public domain. But that brings me to somthing else I was going to bring up that I just noticed, it's been edited just a little. If it were cropped, it would be a faithful representation. As it is, they technically could claim that they own the creative color around the edge of the image. Thanatosimii 01:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And the shadow.--Urthogie 01:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kind of a silly thing to get bent out of shape by, but the rules are the rules. If the image is to stay, it needs to be replaced by a cropped version without Touregypt's (the source's) additions. Thanatosimii 01:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: If it's used elsewhere it should be removed until cropped.--Urthogie 02:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Because the border is their copyrighted work.--Urthogie 02:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It's been cropped... should be fine now. Thanatosimii 04:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  punt image seems to be OR to include 

message: I started this section to address an issue.Taharqa 06:24, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Providing afrocentric sources and being afrocentric are utterly different. I am not trying to establish truth and falsehood on some grand level, I'm just trying to make sure this article obeys the rules. The fact of the matter is that Afrocentric sources simply cannot be used as "the truth" in this article, that's profound POV violation. Now, the argument I'm making, which you aren't getting is this. The sources, all of them, which you have been providing, all come out of some heritage of Afrocentrism. Accordingly, you cannot establish that this page is notable, thus worthy of existance whatsoever, apart from afrocentrism. Since therefore, Afrocentrism has to be attached to this article, you need to contain the myths, which are notable within the scope of Afrocentrism and race of the Egyptians. I understand that I'm not always being clear here, so do you understand at all what I'm trying to say? Thanatosimii 04:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The specific concern is not a matter of POV so much, but in particular, notibility, or perhaps even the "not an indiscriminate collection of information" clause in WP:NOT. This page is filled with afrocentrist authors in its citations. Lam. Diop. Keita. This doesn't necesarraly make them either right or wrong, but it does mean that we have to present them within their contexts. As such, you cannot have an article devoid of discussion of how Afrocentrism plays into all this. To what extent it really does, I'm not even sure, but since this page cites those three, it obviously does to some extent. This is where notability plays in. We write in wikipedia about what other people write about. I can find dozens of vague overviews of Egypt, Race, and Afrocentrism all treated together, but no general overviews about Egypt and Race apart from afrocentrism. This doesn't mean that such studies don't exist (I'm sure many of the ones you've given have little to do with the controversy), however to prove that what you want to write about is not merely an indiscriminant collection of information (one of the things wikipedia is not), the notability of the whole field of study should be established. You need to establish that the article you propose to have written here, being based solely upon scientific studies with no connexion to the Afrocentrist controversy, is not in fact a new or non-notable manner of organization. Someone has to have organized it this way before. The litany of things you want to touch on needs to fall all under the same Aegis somewhere else, before we can organize it that way here.Thus returning to the point of keeping these myths. I am under the impression, based upon what you have provided and not provided, that this topic cannot be adressed apart from discussing the afrocentrist position and remain notable. Accordingly, the material contained in those myths belongs somewhere, and are most at home in this article or in a daughter article caused by breaking this one up into more managable parts... which might not actually be all that bad of a solution. There was an edit conflict, so I'll answer your second question here more explicitly. Heritage of Afrocentrism refers to when the argument or author holds to and promotes the belief that Egypt should be viewed through an African lense, as opposed to merely being viewed with the naked eye and no preconceptions. The claim I made was in specific reference to all the sources you had provided to me in our discussions. You have defended to me at length one Lam, who is entitled to hold his or her beliefs, but this does not change the fact that the views presented are typical afrocentrist arguments and are not accepted by Egyptology, in particular, one phrase added to the article claiming that "blacks" is a literal translation of km.t (actually, it should be km.w. km.t is a singular feminine). As to your other sources, if you want me to go over them too, I first find somthing fishy in the quotations of ancient authors which you have provided. Granted, the sources themselves have no bias, but the way in which they are being interpreted is typical afrocentrism. As to all the homestead/wysinger articles, the mere fact that they're grouped together around a page  shows that they are at least used by afrocentrism, which I feel justifies my statement that these two topics are not seperable. Thanatosimii 06:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Additionally, it is difficult to respond thoughtfully to the concerns of another editor when they raise numerous objections all at once. I can't respond if you write me a book. Thanatosimii 06:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excuse me on that km.t one. It appears it was luka (or some other IP adress only user) who added that one. I'm still not big on this Lam fellow; where it is he gets his stuff I cannot seem to find, only strong indications to the contrary. Thanatosimii 07:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Keita isn't an Afrocentric but a mainstream scientist whom Afrocentric authors often cite, as his research supports the conceppt of a black Egypt. This does not make him any more Afrocentric than authors like Brace are Eurocentric because their works are often cited by White Nationalists (not to put WNs and Afrocentrics on the same level, but I'm comparing the fringe element of Afrocentrism here, since there's nothing wrong with viewing AE in an African context; if this is the way you were using the term "Afrocentric" then there should be no problem in the use of those sources). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 12:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Correction: Afrocentric authors have been desperately twisting and misrepresenting Keita's research to give the impression that he "supports the concept of a black Egypt." Keita himself, a respected anthropologist, would not embarrass himself publicly by proclaiming or implying such amateurish nonsense. — Zerida 08:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Afrocentric sources

message: In General
The Third Opinion request mentioned a dispute over the authority of sources. The answer is simple: a source has sufficient authority to be included in Wikipedia when the criteria in WP:RS are met. In this case, most sources are scholars, which is enough for inclusion within Wikipedia per WP:RS. Only when sufficient bias exists, a source could be excluded per WP:NPOV. Afrocentrism would amount to sufficient bias in the case of this article.
Some sources are clearly written from a point of view. A while back, I wrote a Third Opinion related to an ancient dispute between Shi'a and Sunni Muslims. Both sides cited scholars clearly identifying themselves as Shi'a or Sunni. None of the sources above identified themselves as afrocentrist, however. The question is how one can name and classify sources as afrocentrist.
Classifying things as belonging to a certain group is something Wikipedia does not do. It is original research. Wikipedia merely repeats classifications other people made, and requires reliable sources before doing that. Therefore, one will have to find a source stating the other source is afrocentrist, before writing that the other is afrocentrist. This applies as well to the decision making process, when deciding to include a source or not. Just stating “This page is filled with afrocentrist authors in its citations. Lam. Diop. Keita.” does not make Lam, Diop, or Keita an afrocentrist source. I was not able to find anyone attributing afrocentrism to either of these on the world wide web. This makes the claim not common knowledge, and therefore it should be attributed.
Not citing a source when making allegations of afrocentrism is a violation of a lot of Wikipedia policies. Making a selection of sources that suit one's POV when writing an article violates WP:NPOV. Classifying an author of a book as belonging to a certain group is original research, and possibly violates WP:BLP. The latter policy is one of the strictest on Wikipedia, a close second to WP:OFFICE.
Summarized, to remove a source from this article on grounds of afrocentrism, one has to cite another source stating that the former is afrocentrist.
Other arguments
While the above addresses the issue displayed in the request for Third Opinion, a number of other arguments were displayed in this section. I will address someof them, and rebut and agree where necessary. These are in chronological order.
*Notability  - This is where notability plays in. We write in Wikipedia about what other people write about. - This is a well funded point, but several counterexamples in Wikipedia have made it to Featured article status. Wikipedia can arrange related sourced information. See for example List of notable brain tumour patients, a featured list. I dare to state that no one has tied all of these people together before. Wikipedia is a collection of information, and things like the section structure and order of paragraphs will always be new. Furthermore, notability is not at issue here. The dailynews.com article together with Lucotte and Mercier's study is enough to establish notability per WP:N – the subject of the race of the ancient Egyptians has been mentioned by multiple independent reliable sources in a non trivial manner.
*Egypt and Race cannot be set apart from Afrocentrism - Heritage of Afrocentrism refers to when the argument or author holds to and promotes the belief that Egypt should be viewed through an African lense, as opposed to merely being viewed with the naked eye and no preconceptions. - All of the sources above do not describe themselves as afrocentrist. No sources could be found describing all of these scholars as afrocentrist. Anyone could, for example, allege that all sources on the article on Judaism have been forged by the Zionist Occupation Government. One could even persist in a neutrality tag being placed on the article, but in the end, without any reliable source backing up that statement, it will probably be regarded as false.
*Reliable, non-afrocentric sources are cited out of context - Afrocentric authors have been desperately twisting and misrepresenting Keita's research  [..] - I am not an expert on this subject, but if this is true, it should be changed. I could, however, find no instances in the article where Keita was cited in a way where the facts could not be easily checked. I encourage the editors of this article to use the quote function of the cite book template to provide the source-checking reader with a relevant quote of the book cited.
I hope this helped solve part of the dispute. 
--User:Krator (t c) 23:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Third Opinion (2) 

message: I did some minor cleaning and grammatical corrections/self edits, removed a few block quotes that I added, and added the necessary information for the DRT section.. Only things I removed was the tag at the top and added a more elaborate one in its place, and the secondary source about Nas, which is unreliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
^Now can we begin to clean up the intro and expansion tags after this dispute resolution Urthogie? I'm willing to compromise, even if you don't agree with the edits I just made. We need to get this article on track, seriously.. Of course we need to still go over disputes(real ones, not misinterpretation of studies that drag on for no reason), but let's hurry up please..Taharqa 03:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean up?

message: "Urthogie, there is also a myth that the Egyptians, these native Africans, were White or mixed race. Do we have to mention it in this section on myths?". That's what I wrote earlier. If it is true that "Egypt as a White society" figures in the section on myths, "Egypt as a mixed race society" does not. Taharqa has shown from a wide literature that "Egypt is a multi ethnic indigenous African made society". This is confirmed in a book published recently by a French specialist of Africa: "Envisagée comme étant d'origine essentiellement proche orientale, sinon méditerranéenne, la civilisation égyptienne a montré avec éclat ses sources africaines méridionales" (Bernard Nantet, Dictionnaire de l'Afrique. Histoire, Civilisation, Actualité, Paris: Larousse, 2006, p. 104). He wrote: "Ses sources méridionales africaines (its southern African origins)". Having said this, I am asking to Urthogie if we can mention in the section on myths the theory of "Egypt being a mixed race society". I know that he likes this theory, but for the sake of being objective, do we have to mention it? Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 16:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taharqa and you find this to be a myth, but plenty of scholars don't.  So no.--Urthogie 21:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Your plenty of scholars and you are spreading myths. It has to be mentioned there. Did you read well Bernard Nantet? His book is of 2006, and he speaks about the sourthen origins of the ancient Egyptians, contrasting this with the ancient view according to which ancient Egyptians were mainly from Asia! Your myth has to be put at its right place.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 22:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Luka, you're accusing me of spreading myths?  Some of the major Afrocentric authors have even made clear they want to create myths for their people.  I'm here to provide mainstream sources, not to spread myths.  If you want to call those mainstream sources myths, then go ahead.--Urthogie 16:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes,to counterbalance.  If there were a storm front editor here I'd be using your Afrocentric list to balance things out towards the mainstream.--Urthogie 20:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Mixed race theory as a myth

message: "You have defended to me at length one Lam, who is entitled to hold his or her beliefs, but this does not change the fact that the views presented are typical afrocentrist arguments and are not accepted by Egyptology, in particular, one phrase added to the article claiming that "blacks" is a literal translation of km.t (actually, it should be km.w. km.t is a singular feminine)". Thanatosimii, you wrote this today against Taharqa. Actually it is against me. I am the one who contributed on Kmt. If I say you don't know the Egyptian language, you will say I am juging you. Now I am asking you to go to Faulkner, A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian, 2002, p. 286 and see carefully what he says about Kmt. Then come back to report here. If you have enough time, you can also go to Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 2001, § 77. 3-4, § 510. 2. I am willing to know about your findings. Hotep! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 21:17, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're missing the point. Kmt is not the people term, Kmw is. See Faulkner's; you seem to have the page number handy. Kmt would be a singular feminine (with people determinitives, though no such forms exist). It could be a feminine collective, if such a form (with people determinitives, not the city determinitive) existed and only if the form Kmw did not. Kmt with the land determinitive, now, from context, is a term denoting country, not a people group, and if this Lam is in fact arguing that Kmt proper can be translated "blacks," i.e. a people group, he or she is overlooking the most essential facts of Egyptian linguistics. Simply sticking a determinitive on the end will not change kmt from "blacks" to "land of the blacks," either; the form for that would be kmtyt, with people determinitives and plural strokes, and no such forms exist. The source for this is the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, volume 1, page 29. Thanatosimii 05:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh, suffice it to say you've driven my wikistress to crash-and-burn levels, so don't be expecting to see me around here or on much of wikipedia at all for the forseeable future. Thanatosimii 05:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why are you sticking to your if? Open Faulkner and Gardiner, and see what is written on the pages I indicated you! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 06:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did. And I just told you why your interpretation of them is wrong. With a source, mind you. Thanatosimii 06:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Are you trying, Thanatosimii, to write an Encyclopedia using another Encyclopedia as your best autority? Interesting methodology! Please, go to Faulkner and Gardiner! Have you ever met them? For now, I have to assume that you are doing Egyptology with an Encyclopedia as a textbook. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 07:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An encyclopedia is a relaible source, Luka.--Urthogie 15:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree, but Thanatosimii is not coherent. In the past, he asked me to avoid quoting dictionaries; to quote mainly explicit texts. Now, he is resting upon an encyclopedia! Do you find it normal Urthogie? Let him go and read Faulkner as well as Gardiner. He will surely learn more about mdw nTr, this ancient African language. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 18:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: He didn't use an encyclopedia for the article, but rather to explain how your interpretation was wrong.--Urthogie 18:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: An encyclopedia is not a grammar or a specialised dictionary. Are you lazy or afraid of reading Faulkner, A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian and Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar? Maybe both of you have never seen these two books or heard of them? Thanatosimii is coming here with his if. Who needs his if? Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 19:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry Thanatosimii for the stress I caused you to feel. Hotep! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 19:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Kmt

message: This page was moved today, shortly before I came here to write a Third Opinion, from a request at 3O. Because I wanted to archive the talk page before writing a Third Opinion, I moved all the archives of the talk pages to new and proper titles. Now, the page has moved back again (!). I would like to ask every involved parties to state their arguments below.
Note: writing 'the move didn't have consensus' is tempting and can be expected. Doing this is not useful. What are the arguments for keeping the current title of the page? No consensus exists just because a number of people feels like it, valid arguments must exist.
Now, I will return to writing that Third Opinion on the Afrocentrism of Sources section.  --User:Krator (t c) 21:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My simple argument is that a user came in here without having edited the page even onced, and made a move without consensus, adding stress to the editing environment.--Urthogie 21:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note: writing 'the move didn't have consensus' is tempting and can be expected. Doing this is not useful. What are the arguments for keeping the current title of the page? No consensus exists just because a number of people feels like it, valid arguments must exist. About halfway with the Third Opinion. --User:Krator (t c) 21:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The argument is that we don't have consensus for a change yet... this issue is already being discussed as far as proposed moves, scroll up to see.--Urthogie 21:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hello Krator, we currently are having formal mediation at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ancient Egypt and race. You are welcome to join in, and become a party to the discussions there if you wish. To do so you will need to sign on as a party, agree to the mediation, and agree to me as the mediator. —— Eagle101Need help? 23:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Neh, I am just here from WP:3O. I do get annoyed when trying to get someone not to do something, then seeing that exact thing happening just moments thereafter. Good luck with the mediation. --User:Krator (t c) 14:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving 

message: Don't revert completely... I have installed the section headings we agree on for research, so at worst just cut and paste the content, rather than changing the article structure we agree on.  Thanks, --Urthogie 21:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Taharqa, I wasn't trying to be disruptive but rather to fix the structure as we both agreed.  I made explicitly clear that you could replace my content for now if you disagreed with it, I only ask that you allow us to implement the structure we agreed upon.--Urthogie 15:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You're being pointlessly contrarian.  You did agree to the structure.  You disagreed only to the content, which I made clear here you could replace without fear of reversion.  If you want the article to progress further, it make sense to revert to my version and then replace the sections you disagree with... why stomp on an olive branch?--Urthogie 16:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: "as long as nothing is changed in the process before discussing."  this is wikipedia, every article is constantly changing.  rarely have i ever said to you "just make this change both of us agree on and you can keep your content and i wont revert that."  and yet you're seemingly sacrificing this opportunity to be contrarian.  why?  why when I've said nothing has to be changed aside from the structure.  Do you not have your own interests in mind, or what?--Urthogie 18:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, so basically you're saying you want to keep my structure, but your content, right?--Urthogie 19:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Taharqa read this before editing 

message: Urthogie, it might be you who wrote this: "The demographic effects on ancient Egypt came both from neighboring Mesopotamia to the north[33] and Nubia and Sudan to the south.[citation needed]". To sustain your belief of a Mesopotamian origin of the ancient Egyptians, you quoted the following study: "Hum Biol. 1997 Jun;69(3):295-311. Related Articles, Links  
Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.
Bosch E, Calafell F, Perez-Lezaun A, Comas D, Mateu E, Bertranpetit J.
Laboratori d'Antropologia, Facultat de Biologia, Universitat de Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain.
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.
PIP: An extensive bibliographic search was conducted to compile all available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations. The data were then synthesized to reconstruct the population's demographic history using principal components analysis and genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. Both analyses identified an east-west pattern of genetic variation in northern Africa pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Libya and Egypt are also the smallest genetic distances away from European populations. Demic diffusion during the Neolithic period could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe through a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, but a Mesolithic or older differentiation of the populations into the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand this genetic picture. Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers, the most isolated groups, were the most differentiated, while Arab speakers overall are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. The genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small." I am sorry Urthogie, in this study I don't see any support for your belief. You are cheating us quoting studies which have nothing to do with what you are puting forward in the page. I will feel obliged to check all your contributions. To begin with, please remove from the page your ungrounded hypothesis. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 19:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, I can provide quotes if you want me to.  By the way, the article is not on modern egyptians, but on the "Population history of North Africa."  Note that the quotes I've pasted below deal explicitly with ancient Egypt (paleolithic/neolithic) not modern Egypt.  Your misunderstandings may derive from you guys reading only the abstract, not the full article.  Here are quotes from the full article:
*"Little is known about human population movements during the North African Upper Paleolithic. Neolithic populations diffused into the region from the east, where they contributed to the rise of the Egyptian kingdom... The amount and geographic range of gene flow, if any, associated with the appearance of Neolithic populations is highly controversial."
*"Therefore population replacement during the Neolithic from the Levant could explain the genetic similarity between Libya, Egypt, and the European populations."
Thanks, --Urthogie 16:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It's not an opinion, but rather a study.  If you disagree with the study's methodology or how it came to its conclusions, that has no bearing on whether its cited, because you are not a reliable source for deciding whether a study of North African population history was correctly conducted.  It's also interesting that you complain about this study being 10 years old, considering that you have cited Keita 1995, and even cited people from 1915.--Urthogie 16:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok, Taharqa, good points.  I'm starting to see that we can compromise.  I have the following issues with the current configuration, though:
#It is OR to summarize the three studies as a new, solid, "theory."  They are seperate articles which don't mention one another.  This problem does not apply to the so-called "older theory" because Bosch actually cites Newman. 
#It is POV and OR to present a 10 year old study as discredited and non-mainstream without any sources which say that.
#It is bad style, and has the effect of POV that the "new theory" is mentioned both at the beginning and the end of the section, when it should only be articulated once, to avoid redundancy
#It is ridiculously POV and OR to say "(SeeDynastic Race Theory)."  This is not the dynastic race theory, it is a theory of demographic influence.
Aside from addressing these points, could you answer this question: If I get two more recent sources written in the last 5 years which indicate significant near east demographic influence on ancient Egypt, would you be willing to reconsider the current emphasis of that section on Keita's views and views similar to Keita?  Thank you for discussing, --Urthogie 20:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Is this from Urthogie?

message: Urthogie, I read attentively the article you mentioned as supporting a "mixed race theory" : "Analyses of mummies, based on either CT scans or melanin tests have come up with a variety of results, some reporting "mixed racial characteristics",[16] While others reporting "Negroid affinities."[17]". From this, one can believe that there is a study concluding that the Egyptians were from a mixed race society. Reading the article, I descovered that it is not the case. At the best it is an hypothesis: "3. Soft Tissues and Egyptology It is important to consider the background history of “Senu”, race
and Egyptology to reconstruct the soft tissues such as nose, lips,
and ears as well as other details such as skin color. Presumptions
were made on “Senu” based on the Egyptological assumption that
he came from the south and may be a royal family related to
soldiery with administrant titled Achu. His race can be presumed
as a mixture of racial types, including negroid, Mediterranean and
European. Important features are decided as almond-shaped eyes,
wing of nose to be wide, thick lips, and dark to reddish brown skin
color. From the presumptions above, artistic decisions were made
to add details to the basic skin surface. Additionally, “Senu” is
anatomically presumed to be a male and age in his middle age.
From this estimate, the basic skin surface is manually deformed to
reflect the age as an artistic decision." From this text, Urthogie, one cannot say that Senu was a mixed race. Scientists are just saying that "His race can be presumed as a mixture of racial types, including negroid, Mediterranean and European" (They don't even speak about Mesopotamia, but they mention the south). So they are not drawing a conclusion from their study. They are presuming. Diop did something different with the melanin test. Diop saw from analysies in laboratory that the quantity of melanin in the skins of the Egyptians is too much, thus incompatible with the idea of the Egyptians having white skin. Let's be serious Urthogie. You are bringing texts which are not backing your theories. I want other people to verify what I understood from the study about "Senu". Meanwhile I am asking Urthogie to find another text to back his affirmation or, else, to abandon this affirmation for the sake of being objective. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--195.110.156.38 21:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: We removed Senu.  I'm not interested in discussing Senu because he's no longer part of the article.  Feel free to have any opinion of that study that you like.--Urthogie 15:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I forgot to remove Senu from the beginning in my version, I believe. (had i noticed, i would have)  I support removing him from the intro now too, of course.--Urthogie 16:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Luka seems to be arguing against the idea that "Egyptians had white skin."  No one on this talk page believes that.  Why argue against such a straw man?--Urthogie 16:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: surely they were influenced to some degree, even if it was minor.  that's what our whole disagreement is about.  scientists like keita argue that there was an insignificant effect from the near east.  no scientist argues that there was no effect whatsoever.--Urthogie 16:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't consider it "sprinkles."  Your view is based on the list of sources that you use.--Urthogie 18:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, one such source is being discussed above, and you are trying as hard as you can to keep it out of the article.--Urthogie 18:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: You don't seem to understand what a personal attack is.  A personal attack is when you comment on the person's attributes, rather than their actions.  We are allowed to criticize actions.--Urthogie 19:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: But you are trying to keep that study out, and its relevant because you're strangely claiming no such studies have been provided.--Urthogie 20:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: So you dont mind if we include the study?--Urthogie 20:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It is there, my mistake, but in a POV way, presenting it as unaccepted and replaced.--Urthogie 20:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The "Senu" case

message: Thanatosimii, while verifying the quotations made by Urthogie, I found one which has nothing to do with the subject raised by Urthogie, namely that the Egyptians considered themselves different from their neighbours. Fortunately, this quotation mentions that Egypt is the first state in the world, thus before Sumer (which might also belong to the Black world). Urthogie knew this text which is from him. But he said nothing to you who was negating the anteriority of Egypt on the political scene. "I wish you would respect what I actually write and not twist my statements with straw men. Whether you choose to believe it or not, I know what I'm talking about, and your sources are wrong. Egypt is not the oldest state in the world, this is simply the case. Read any legitimate history book in the world, and it will tell you the same thing. Sumer's civilization is a few hundred years older. I rejected it because it didn't square with the mainstream and used a patently false date for the foundation of the Dynastic. I rejected Budge because Budge is notoriously worthless, and denounced by his own old Job! I did not reject what you took out of Budge, however I will not believe it until I examine it personally, since Budge flagrantly ignored the development of the German lexicography which has been recongized as the correct reading since the 1910's. I find it strange that for someone who insists he has plentiful knowledge of Africa, you do not know even the most basic of basic facts about Egyptian history properly. You need to sit down and read some general texts, and pay more attention to actual scholars. Thanatosimii 01:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not spend the last three years studying this in university to be patronized. Don't accept what I say on face value because of it, don't think I want you to assume that I'm right, but I will not be patronized and I will not have you giving me disrespect that I am undeserving of. I do not need to read basic texts to learn about your "obvious" truths when no such mentions exist of this data in any of the sources I have poured myself over for endless hours upon days of study, be they the most simple generalized histories or the most specific publications yet. Neither do I believe I must always be right on everything, but I am not ignorant. Your statements are flying in the face of the formost Egyptologists and academic presses on earth, so don't attack me if I don't accept them. As I said before, your behavior is appalingly incivil and I will not abide it further. Farewell, I won't be bothering you again. This is a textbook example of how not to treat another editor. Thanatosimii 05:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

text: Whether he's "right" or not has no bearing on the page, it's a petty dialectic.--Urthogie 16:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ancient Egypt, the first state in the world