Talk:First Chechen War

message: Because I don't know. --HanzoHattori 08:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Um, so, what exactly is disputed? 

message: Despite having overwhelming manpower, weaponry and air support, Russian forces were unable to establish effective control over the mountainous area because of many successful Chechen guerrilla raids.
Which mountainous area? In which offensive operation did this occur? What kind of Chechen guerrilla raids? Can you be more specific about what is meant by "effective control"?
It doesn't need significant expansion, but there is no context, and it would be easier to read if the above questions were answered. Rintrah 13:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sentence

message: This needs expansion:
The rebels seized Soviet Army weapons.
In the following month, Dudayev won overwhelming popular support to oust the interim, central government-supported administration. He was made president in an election which was unmonitored by any third party, and later alleged to be fraudulent.[citation needed] Dudayev then issued a unilateral declaration of independence. In November 1991, President Yeltsin of RSFSR dispatched Internal Troops to Grozny; but they forced to withdraw when Dudayev's forces prevented them from leaving the airport.''
Where and how did they sieze the weapons?
How was popular support shown? I want to know more about the election. Rintrah 13:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More information needed

message: Can someone who knows something about the subject rewrite or clarify the Chechen declaration of independence section (particularly the second and third paragraph)? As it stands, it is not well written. Rintrah 07:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Chechen declaration of independence

message: Please expand and clarify this: After staging another coup attempt in December 1993, the opposition organized a Provisional Council as a potential alternative government for Chechnya, calling on Moscow for assistance. Rintrah 07:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More Info

message: Now that the copyediting is done, can people find references for the article? It deserves to be higher than B class. Rintrah 06:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: Aren't there a few too many pictures in this article? IDK, it just seems that way to me.
oops, forgot to sign! --69.120.63.248 02:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No. Every one powerfully complements its adjacent text. Rintrah 03:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures? 

message: This article is about the First Chechen War, defined within the article as a war between Chechen nationals and Russian military forces for Chechen independence. I see why other conflicts may hold relevance, but why is there a need for a section on them within this article? Perhaps it should be linked, and put on the Chechen wars page, but it doesn't really belong in an article about this specific conflict.71.30.52.249 23:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History of Chechen Wars? 

message: Is there a way to semi-protect the talk page? If so, please. --HanzoHattori 06:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Annoying anon ip 

message: For some reason, there's only a brief and unconclusive description of Russian offensives in April and especially May-June 1995 ("Mountain offensive"). Also, the ceasefire of April 26 — May 12 isn't mentioned at all. 195.248.189.182 (talk) 08:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spring 1995 Offensives  

message: He reverts everything I write! 
I think he's going to undo this, too... --84.234.60.154 (talk) 13:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What the hell is with this "Steve Crossin" guy? 

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thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Budyonnovsk.jpg

message: The way it was written, using only one Russian source to claim Kutsenko was pushed out of the window is definitely POV, considering other sources say he could have fallen out while trying to escape. Restored a NPOV version which mentions both possibilities, pushed or fell. Martintg (talk) 02:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I definitely agree. The Pieter's version was more neutral and more carefully worded. Lokii, Please do not tell that I was "not involved". If you wish, I will be permanently involved here.Biophys (talk) 04:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV language in Chechen declaration of independence 

message: How can Chechnya's de facto independence be a result of the war? It had de facto independence before the war already. Offliner (talk) 18:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "...resulted in Chechnya's de facto independence from Russia as the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria." 

message: The casualty figures seem very unrealistic and either downplayed for the one side or just simply exaggerated for the other.
How did the Chechens secure their independence when loosing more than half their combatants and the Russian forces loosing something below 10% ? this doesn't make any sense and I think figures from different sources, maybe allready provided in the casualties section should be displayed too so that people can draw their own logical picture with the different estimates. TheMightyGeneral (talk) 08:21, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: International Institute for Strategic Studies - " The 2004 chart of Armed Conflict " (in: The Military Balance, 2004/05), one might think a quite serious and reliable source, puts the number of fatalities in this 1994 to 1996 Chechnya conflict at 35,000. --129.187.244.28 (talk) 13:16, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Casualty figures 

message: "Strength" section of sidebar at top of article doesn't list which side the figures are for.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.57.76.255 (talk) 22:56, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Strength 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There are now almost 60 leaders listed in the infobox on the Chechen side. I think this is too many and suggest to remove everyone who is not in the main list. Any ideas where can we move all those names? Most of them don't have wikipedia articles meaning that creating a category is not a solution. Alaexis¿question? 10:17, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commanders 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: Content in this article portrays events with different emphasis to the article on the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria with the other article seeming more pro Russian and anti Dudayev Eggappreciator2022 (talk) 22:56, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradictory opinion to other Wikipedia articles 

message: , I've reverted your change since it broke the formatting. I also have another question, why should we mention it separately in the infobox considering that they fought as part of the regular army . Maybe it would be better to create a Combatants section and discuss it there in more detail and providing proper context? Alaexis¿question? 07:16, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ermolov battalion 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Khloponin's words do not describe the situation in the early 90s. The interview you cited was given in 2010 and this is the question and the answer, google-translated with some amendments
Note that Khloponin talks about all the republics of North Caucasus and not specifically about Chechnya which is obviously a special case. Khloponin talks in present tense when he says that no one is deliberately squeezing Russians out. He says that "after the 90s ... Russian-speaking population began to migrate to where there is work." So you cannot use his words as a source for the statement that the exodus of Russians from Chechnya [in 1991-1994] was due to economic reforms of the 1990s.
Setting aside Khloponin, I agree that one of the reasons for the exodus of the Russophone population from Chechnya in 1991-1994 was the collapse of the economy of Chechnya and I'm sure that we can find sources for that. However the abuses were also real, and they explain why the scale of exodus was much greater that in other republics of North Caucasus. Alaexis¿question? 07:14, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm I see your point, but why mention the reforms of the 90s then? if he is talking about the emigration after the 90s, why are the reforms of the 90s relevant at all.  (Sextus Caedicius (talk) 23:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, this is an interview and not a scholarly article, so he's not trying to be precise but rather is using the "bad 90s" trope (:ru:Лихие девяностые) to explain the decrease of the share of Russians in the North Caucausian republics. The migration certainly happened both during the reforms in the early 90s and after the reforms as people moved to places with better economic situation. Alaexis¿question? 07:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Khloponin's quote 

message: Following a few recent edits, the section on the state of Chechnya in 1991-1994 has a severe WP:DUE problem. Now it reads
The reader gets the impression that the harassment of non-Chechens in Chechnya during this period is an issue for which there are opposing views and neither of them is dominant. In fact this is not the case at all. The first sentence is supported by nearly all scholarly books on the subject.
1. Allah's Mountains: Politics and War in the Russian Caucasus By Sebastian Smith p. 133
Page 134 gives some specific examples of harassment.
2. Chechnya: Calamity in the Caucasus by Carlotta Gall and Thomas de Waal, p. 75
3. Tishkov, Valery (2004). Chechnya Life in a War-Torn Society. University of California Press. p. 65.
4. Anatol Lieven, Chechnya, a tombstone of Russian power, p. 75
5. John B. Dunlop, Russia confronts Chechnya, p 137 (the chapter is called Towards the ethnocratic Chechen state)
Thus, it is a consensus position that the non-Chechen population (Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, etc.) faced harassment in the pre-war period.
Let's look at the two sources which were added which supposedly hold a different opinion. Saying that Igor Kalyanin "argued that while hardships did exist for ethnically Russian employees in Chechnya, its character and scope was mythologized and exaggerated" misrepresents the source. When giving examples of "myths" he mentions Islamist fighters, foreign mercenaries and abuses of prisoners of war. Nothing of this is relevant to the subsection on the pre-war situation in Chechnya. If anything, he does say that the situation of the Russian-speakers in Chechnya was the worst in the whole former USSR.
The only source that does say that does dismiss the persecution of Russians in Chechnya is Valeriya Novodvorskaya. Considering that she was a politician and not a historian, I think that mentioning her position which contradicts the consensus is simply undue. She held some extreme opinions, like saying that the residents of Gaza strip do not deserve any pity and that the Gazan mothers' dream is for their children to become terrorists . Alaexis¿question? 20:33, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems to be the same editor who thinks "terrorist" or "terrorist attacks" does not belong in the opening of the biography of Basayev. Why is her livejournal page used as a source? Mellk (talk) 01:28, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope you realize you've just disqualified yourself from this discussion and consensus-seeking, by bringing your grudges and bias into this Mellk? If you haven't noticed this is the talk page for the First Chechen War, and not anything else. Regards. (Sextus Caedicius (talk) 16:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

text: Hi Alaexis, I have another discussion going atm, as well as some other edits in mind also, it can stay the way it is for the time being, I'll tag you when I'm charged for this one. Regards. (Sextus Caedicius (talk) 16:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Due weight problems 

message: I would advise discussing the issue here instead of engaging in back and forth reverts.   Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 23:22, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: After looking at the dispute I need to say I agree with Wohuwak regarding this. I don't think there's evidence that the Grey wolves have been involved in any battle in Chechnya. If they were then their numbers would most likely be limited to a couple of fighters, which is a due weight issue. Even if they were not then this would still be an issue as their numbers weren't of any significance. The same can be said for the foreign mujahideen. If I remember correctly there was only around 100 foreign fighters in Chechnya (ignoring the UNA-UNSO) most of which were of Arab origin, according to Dodge Billingsley - an expert on the topic. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 21:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Grey wolves

message: @Lemabeta I would advise you to refrain from adding 'Georgian volunteers' to the list of belligerents in the infobox. The presence of one or two Georgian soldiers, does not constitute the involvement of a state or a significant independent group in the conflict. Belligerents are parties that have an official and substantial involvement in a conflict. This usually means state actors or major insurgent groups, not individuals who may have participated on their own accord.
The sources you are citing are seemingly interviews with an individual who claims to have fought in the Chechen War. This is nowhere sufficient to establish the involvement of a broader group or a state. For an entity to be listed as a belligerent, there needs to be substantial evidence of organized, collective involvement. This might include official recognition by the entity itself, multiple independent sources corroborating the scale of participation, or evidence of direct involvement by the entity in the conflict's operations. What you are doing is basing the inclusion on a single, uncorroborated personal account, which is not only misinformation but also leads to an inaccurate representation of this war. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 19:22, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: @Ola Tønningsberg, just wanted to say that I agree that Georgia should not be included as a combatant. The presence of some Georgians is well documented but it doesn't mean that Georgia as a country was Chechnya's ally. Alaexis¿question? 19:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

text: This doesn't really address the points I made above. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 15:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: There were more than one or two volunteers from Georgia, many of the Zviadist loyalists continued fighting on the side of Chechnya. Who are you to dictate what needs to be included in the article and what shouldnt? Georgian volunteers fought on the side of Chechnya in the First Chechen war and it needs to be mentioned. Lemabeta (talk) 08:52, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You need to add a source that says that there were many of them, or gives their number. Alaexis¿question? 09:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

text: The sources that you've added talk about just one volunteer, who didn't play a major role in the First Chechen war. They can be used in the article about him, but not in this article. Alaexis¿question? 09:38, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Georgian volunteers 

message: Regarding the persistent attempts to declare the Russian official sources as unreliable, this in itself needs to be verified by sources. It's also necessary to provide sources that prove that the alternate estimates are more reliable. Until this is done, there is no reason this article shouldn't follow the general format of conflict templates of listing first the estimate each side provides for its own casualties, while avoiding POV terms like "claims". Kostja (talk) 11:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reliability of sources