Talk:1938–1939 German expedition to Tibet

message: This article has several serious problems. Firstly it appears to have been translated at least partially from German by a non-naitve English speaker, perhaps with the aid of an on-line translator. Secondly, it contains several obvious errors of fact: for instance it describes Otto Rahn as operative in Iraq during the 1941 coup attempt, while linking to the main article on Rahn (also with serious problems) which describes him as dying in 1939.
More fundamentally, though more subjectively, it makes the argument thatthe true reason for the ostensibly natural historical expedition was occultist, to make make contact with 'secret amsters' in Tibet. While there may in fact be soemthing to this, no substantiation is offered, and the article seems to be encrusted with a lot of typical occultist drivel.
75.0.38.166 04:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: Considering the availability of free images from the German Federal Archive, this article has entirely too many non-free images, particularly at the end.  I have replaced one with a much better one (which actually shows the face of the man described, Beger); but several non-free images remain.
— Ken g6 (talk) 05:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've replaced two more images, this time with near-identical free versions.  One was a lucky find; the other was on the German version of the article.  Only two non-free images remain, but it may be more difficult to find identical free versions of them. — Ken g6 (talk) 20:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non-free images 

message: I have added a couple of useful refs but a lot of the relevant material is on microfilm in the NA. The Levenda work, although emotive, is well sourced and provides sources and indications for the microfilm rolls if anyone is down that way with some time on their hands. Hope this helps.Ernstblumberg (talk) 09:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean Up, Refs, etc. 

message: I have started removing or regrouping information not relevant to the subject (Heinrich Harrer's climbing debut, the Nanga Parbat expedition). For Harrer's in-depth biography, see the French Wikipedia page.--Elnon (talk) 01:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleaning up

message: Unfortunately, the article suffers from POV. For a more objective appreciation, I recommend reading:
*Detlev Rose, L'expédition allemande au Tibet de 1938-39. Voyage scientifique ou quête de traces à motivation idéologique ?, in Synergies européennes - Bruxelles-Munich-Tübingen, novembre 2006 (article tiré de la revue Deutschland in Geschichte und Gegenwart, No 3-2006).", cited into external links, but not cited in the article.  
*Works of  Isrun Engelhardt (This author published an article in McKay Alex (ed.), Tibet and Her Neighbours : A History). See also :
*Isrun Engelhardt, «Tibetan Triangle. German, Tibetan and British relations in the context of E. Schäfer's expedition, 1938-1939», in Asiatische Studien, LVIII.1, 2004. 
*Isrun Engelhardt,  Tibet in 1938-1939 : Photographs from the Ernst Schäfer Expedition to Tibet, Serindia, Chicago, 2007. 
* Isrun Engelhardt, «Mishandled Mail : The Strange Case of the Reting Regent's Letters to Hitler», in Proceedings of the Tenth Seminar of the International Association for Tibetan Studies 2003, Oxford. 
* Isrun Engelhardt, «The Nazis of Tibet : A twentieth century myth» , in Monica Esposito, Images of Tibet in the 19th and 20th Centuries, Ecole française d'Extrême Orient, coll. «Etudes thématiques», 2008. 
*Martin Brauen, Dreamworld Tibet, Orchid Press, Bangkok, 2004.
*Thierry Dodin, Heinz Räther,  Imagining Tibet. Realities, Projections and Fantasies, Wisdom Publication, Boston, 2001.
*--Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 15:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: For a page to be marked as non neutral, tangible arguments should be formulated in relation to relevant points of the text. A bibliographical list of articles and books can in no way be passed off as sound justification for charges of non neutral point of view.--Elnon (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that the balanced literature cited above is neither cited nor used appropriately. I did read in details the 2 first indicated references and found out that the article in its current form as published on wikipedia is lacking such a balance approach. It will require time to go into details to obtain a balance article. In the mean time, I strongly suggest to let the indication of POV.--Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 14:33, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

text: I agree the article suffers still from POV. It uses extensively sensationalist sources like Pringle, Heather, The Master Plan, as well as Hale's Himmler’s Crusade, which classified by researchers as "reﬂecting ideological preconceptions and sensationalism" but does not make use of reliable and established academic research. I removed the quote from Pringle who tries to put the Dalai Lama into the context of Hitler, which is ridiculous. There is also no precise reference given or a source where one can exactly prove such a claim. That this meteorite story is quoted in the article is also ridiculous because Elmar Buchner has in no way any evidence that this meteorite is from the Schäfer-Tibet-Expedition, he just assumes it. So it's a mere speculation. Actually this should be removed too until evidence is given. This meteorite story has nothing to do with the Schäfer expedition. I will remove Pringle and put the meteorite story in a different section with a separate headline. Moreover the article should have the title of its official name: "German Tibetexpedition Ernst Schäfer". One of Engelhardt's papers is online. I linked it in the article. 213.182.68.42 (talk) 14:13, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

text: I've just seen that this article includes even more dubious sources like Trimondis, they as well as Pringle, and Christopher Hale are sensationalist and don't meet in any way Wikipedia's Reliable Source Policies (WP:RS). I removed at least Trimondi and one quote by Pringle, and replaced both by a WP:RS. For a review on Trimondi, see Schlieter: http://www.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/archiv/8625 The article still is mainly based on dubious and non WP:RS, therefore I marked that article with the "unreliable sources" template. 213.182.68.42 (talk) 14:54, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

text: Good that it was deleted. This article by Roger Croston shows how distorted this has been: Is the Space Buddha a Counterfeit? 213.182.68.42 (talk) 12:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV 

message: As said earlier, this iron man passage is mere speculation, I would suggest to delete it or to put it into perspective. No researchers have been asked regarding its origin. It's a real non-sense speculation discussion. For a paper by Prof. Bayer regarding this see: http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/pdf/publikationen/Bayer_2012-Trousers.pdf 213.182.68.42 (talk) 15:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Good that it was deleted. This article by Roger Croston shows how distorted this has been: Is the Space Buddha a Counterfeit? 213.182.68.42 (talk) 12:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Iron Man passage

message: Other problem : self reference, the article start with an introduction lacking ref, citing an article that is on wikipedia. --Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 21:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self ref 

message: Though it's talked a lot about Ahnenerbe, Himmler, SS etc. the real objectives of Schäfer himself have not been included in the article. Hence, I put a section at the start of the article which state's Schäfer's own objectives:
:Schäfer's primary objective for the expedition was the creation of a complete scientific record of Tibet, through a synthesis of geology, botany, zoology, and ethnology, referred to in the German science of the day as "holism." Reference: Ernst Schäfer, Geheimnis Tibet.  München: Bruckmann 1943, 7-16, see also Engelhardt, Isrun, »Nazis of Tibet: A Twentieth Century Myth.« In: Monica Esposito (ed.), Images of Tibet in the 19th and 20th Centuries. Paris: École française d'Extrême-Orient (EFEO), coll. Études thématiques 22, vol. I, 2008, p.76. 213.182.68.42 (talk) 14:47, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Researcher Roger Croston quoting the The New York Times of 1939 (stating “The expedition is bringing back valuable zoological and botanical collections”), Schäfer, and research results describes the objective of the expedition as "The primary aim of this expedition was an holistic creation of a complete biological record of Tibet alongside a synthesis of inter-relating natural sciences with regard to geography, cartography, geology, earth magnetics, climate, plants, animals and mankind." ref: Roger Croston,  Is the Space Buddha a Counterfeit?, 24 Oct. 2012
213.182.68.42 (talk) 14:48, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Aims of the Expediton

message: This source should not be used, at it not neutral. It also contains mistakes. See discussion in French :fr:Discussion:Expédition allemande au Tibet (1938-1939)/Archives. For instance, Mutti pretend Panchen Lama met the German expedition and signed a friendship treaty with the 3rd Reich. This is impossible, as the Panchen Lama died in 1937. See also discussion above (Reference credibility), about Mutti and Trimondis.--Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 16:15, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Claudio Mutti is an unreliable source