Talk:Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki/Archive 14

message: First off excuse me I've violated any format conventions here. I seldom post on Wikipedia and just wanted your input on an article I have found. If it's relevant I'd like you to add it it somewhere.
 
All I want to know is if this is true. Were the Japanese seeking to surrender before the bombs were dropped? I'm holding off judgement on this until someone with a little more background on the subject can fill me in. Anyway, here's the article.
"Chicago Tribune, August 19, 1945
JAPS ASKED PEACE IN JAN. ENVOYS ON WAY -- TOKYO
Roosevelt Ignored M'Arthur Report On Nip Proposals
By Walter Trohan
Release of all censorship restrictions in the United States makes it possible to report that the first Japanese peace bid was relayed to the White House seven months ago.
Two days before the late President Roosevelt left the last week in January for the Yalta conference with Prime Minister Churchill and Marshal Stalin he received a Japanese offer identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, Harry S. Truman.
MacArthur Relayed Message to F.D.
The Jap offer, based on five separate overtures, was relayed to the White House by Gen. MacArthur in a 40-page communication. The American commander, who had just returned triumphantly to Bataan, urged negotiations on the basis of the Jap overtures.
The offer, as relayed by MacArthur, contemplated abject surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. The suggestion was advanced from the Japanese quarters making the offer that the Emperor become a puppet in the hands of American forces.
Two of the five Jap overtures were made through American channels and three through British channels. All came from responsible Japanese, acting for Emperor Hirohito.
General's Communication Dismissed
President Roosevelt dismissed the general's communication, which was studded with solemn references to the deity, after a casual reading with the remark, "MacArthur is our greatest general and our poorest politician."
The MacArthur report was not even taken to Yalta. However, it was carefully preserved in the files of the high command and subsequently became the basis of the Truman-Attlee Potsdam declaration calling for surrender of Japan.
This Jap peace bid was known to the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald shortly after the MacArthur comunication reached here. It was not published under the paper’s established policy of complete co-operation with the voluntary censorship code.
Must Explain Delay
Now that peace has been concluded on the basis of the terms MacArthur reported, high administration officials prepared to meet expected congressional demands for explanation of the delay. It was considered certain that from various quarters of Congress charges would be hurled that the delay cost thousands of American lives and casualties, particularly in such costly offensives as Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
It was explained in high official circles that the bid relayed by MacArthur did not constitute an official offer in the same sense as the final offer which was presented through Japanese diplomatic channels at Bern and Stockholm last week for relay to the four major Allied powers.
No negotiations were begun on the basis of the bid, it was said, because it was feared that if any were undertaken the Jap war lords, who were presumed to be ignorant of the feelers, would visit swift punishment on those making the offer.
It was held possible that the war lords might even assassinate the Emperor and announce the son of heaven had fled the earth in a fury of indignation over the peace bid.
Defeat Seen Inevitable
Officials said it was felt by Mr. Roosevelt that the Japs were not ripe for peace, except for a small group, who were powerless to cope with the war lords, and that peace could not come until the Japs had suffered more.
The Jap overtures were made on acknowledgment that defeat was inevitable and Japan had to choose the best way out of an unhappy dilemma -- domination of Asia by Russia or by the United States. The unofficial Jap peace brokers said the latter would be preferable by far.
Jap proposals to Gen. MacArthur contemplated:
1. Full surrender of all Jap forces on sea, in the air, at home, on island possessions and in occupied countries.
2. Surrender of all arms and munitions.
3. Occupation of the Jap homeland and island possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Would Give Up Territory
4. Jap relinquishment from Manchuria, Korea and Formosa as well as all territory seized during the war.
5. Regulation of Jap industry to halt present and future production of implements of war.
6. Turning over of any Japanese the United States might designate as war criminals.
7. Immediate release of all prisoners of war and internees in Japan proper and areas under Japanese control.
After the fall of Germany, the policy of unconditional surrender drew critical fire. In the Senate Senator White (R.) of Maine Capehart (R.) of Indiana took the lead in demanding that precise terms be given Japan and in asking whether peace feelers had not been received from the Nipponese.
Terms Drafted in July
In July the Tribune reported that a set of terms were being drafted for President Truman to take to Potsdam. Capehart hailed the reported terms on the floor of the Senate as a great contribribution to universal peace.
These terms, which were embodied in the Potsdam declaration did not mention the disposition of the Emperor. Otherwise they were almost identical with the proposals contained in the MacArthur memorandum.
Just before the Japanese surrender the Russian foreign commissar disclosed that the Japs had made peace overtures through Moscow asking that the Soviets mediate the war. These overtures were made in the middle of June through the Russian foreign office and also through a personal letter from Hirohito to Stalin Both overtures were reported to the United States and Britain."  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.151.30.17 (talk) 09:00, August 22, 2007 (UTC) 
:The only convention you may have violated that I see is not signing your comment by putting 4 "~" after it (which gets translated into a signature).  But it looks like the system automatically did it for you, so that isn't a problem.
:I've seen the Trohan article referred to before, but I've never seen it critically analyzed by any historians who would be able to say whether or not it was legitimate.
:The historical record is pretty straightforward that the Japanese government was not willing to make any surrender offers at this time.  However, the question of whether the Emperor was trying to make such a deal in secret behind the back of the Japanese government is a little more murky, because such a secret overture would not necessarily show up in any records.
:All the history books that I've read that cover the US government in this period make no mention of this offer or any debate over it by any government officials.  And MacArthur was pretty set on the view that Japan would never surrender until Tokyo had been captured -- a view he pushed even after Hiroshima.  If such an offer were really made by the Emperor, the offer must have been viewed as so illegitimate in the US that everyone dismissed it without debate.
:Overall I'm pretty skeptical of the Trohan article.  But as far as I can see it is technically possible that Hirohito tried to seek peace behind everyone's backs and this effort wasn't seen as a serious offer in the US. Oralloy 10:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Walter Trohan article

message: It should be known that there were many Canadian contributions to the nuclear bomb drop on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. First of all, it should be noted that Pugwash NS was one of the many meeting sites for the scientists. Secondly, the idea of a nuclear bomb this massive that hit both cities was based after scientists examined damage from the 1917 Halifax Explosion. AnthonyWalters 01:45, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no doubt that the Halifax Explosion came up when discussing the bomb, and I also know Canada helped out with the Manhattan Project too but do you know where this information can be found (to use as a source). Anynobody 02:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Canadian Connection

message: Karl Bunker used to habitually occupy this article. He made hundreds of edits to it. Yet, it appears that every edit and every mention of him has been deleted. Does anybody know why this has happened ? --Salom Khalitun 17:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you ask him?  He can be contacted at User talk:KarlBunker.  He has changed his name to User:RedSpruce, though. Neil ╦ 15:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: What's happened to Karl Bunker

message: The lead section is currently a complete mess due to hasty revisions, misunderstood or misrepresented sources and sloppy editing. There are some very poor references used, most no longer support the text they are attached to because the reference has been moved or the original text deleted.
*Ref 1 Health Risks from Exposure to Low Levels of Ionizing Radiation: BEIR VII Phase 2 (2006) no longer has any relation to the text it follows
*Ref 2  is the RERF FAQ page, we should be citing the studies themselves
*Ref 3 is a general radiobiology text which no longer has any relation to the text it follows
*Refs 4&5 are the DOE history website, we have much better sources available for casualty numbers
*Ref 6 cites a pictorial museum guide, the 237,000 and 135,000 numbers have been much discussed previously and are a tally of the total number of people exposed to the bomb and have since died of whatever cause. If i recall correctly The Spirit of Hiroshima was introduced to support a total different claim
*Ref 7 Mikiso Hane is a general survey of Japanese history since the nineteenth century and was i think added to support something about Korean survivors, that text is now gone from the article
*Ref 9 is an AP article which is misrepresented in the article text
I suggest we delete this entire paragraph and start over.—eric 19:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read the prior discussion on this Talk page, and the two versions of that paragraph under discussion. There is already a section to discuss redoing the estimated deaths; it is called "Estimated Deaths." Most of your obections have been discussed: that is why there is an attempt to change the current version. The edit that keeps being undone is essentially a "start over" of this paragraph. Getting rid of the irrelevant references and changing the use of Ref. 9 has already been proposed and attempted--it is being blocked by unrelenting undos. It would be nice if this discussion didn't go in circles.Bsharvy 21:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  References in lead section 

message: As EricR notes above, the references and footnotes in this article are a mess, scattered across multiple sections, with inconsistent (and not always helpful) formatting.  I found it very hard to judge the reliability of sources when all that is given is an incomprehensible URL instead of the cite web formatting.  I've added a tag.  Please don't remove it until the references and footnotes are cleaned up. THF 20:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup references tag

message: There's a comment on the talk page of the "Hiroshima - before-after photograph" that questions it's status. 
Source
It may be nothing, or the opposite, but i thought it'd be of pertinence to show. Uxorion 19:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The copyright applies to the text on the webpage, as well as the map.  The "mushroom cloud" photograph is copyrighted by Hiromichi Matsuda.  However, the before and after photographs were taken by the U.S. government, thus public domain.   The top image on the webpage, taken from aircraft, is also public domain. --Aude (talk) 20:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Just a note to those working on the article. 

message: The text:
:"the status quo of conventional bombings and the Japanese occupations in Asia were causing tremendous loss of life."
could be made more specific by referring to the death toll in conventional bombing raids. For example, according to this reference in Bombing of Tokyo in World War II, the death toll from the conventional bombing raid on Tokyo in March 1945 was at least 80,000, and perhaps exceeded 100,000.Richard B. Frank, Downfall, p. 17–18. (NB. the total death toll from the conventional bombing raid on Tokyo was higher than the total death toll from the atomic bombing of Nagasaki). 
One suggestion would be the following replacement text:
:"the status quo of conventional bombings and the Japanese occupations in Asia were causing tremendous loss of life with, for example, over 80,000 people killedRichard B. Frank, Downfall, p. 17–18. in the bombing of Tokyo in March 1945."
Rnt20 12:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ? The mention about conventional bombings is already in the Manhattan Project section. Oda Mari 15:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've disabled the editprotected request while discussion continues. Cheers. --MZMcBride 03:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Possible addition