Talk:Royce Gracie

message: There is conflicting info in the Early Life section. It says he earned his black belt at 16 in the first paragraph, but 18 in the second. Can we figure out which is correct and correct the inaccurate one? (BTW I'm not really sure how to format these talk pages and whatnot, apologies if I'm doing it wrong)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esoteridactyl (talk • contribs) 09:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Black Belt age

message: Does anyone have a picture of him that shows off his whole body? Since he is known for his fighting, its probably best if we use a picture that shows off what he looked like in the UFC instead of just his head. DurotarLord 02:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Picture

message: The original rules stated that there would be a 30 minute time limit with no overtime.  It was decided after it appeared that there would not be a winner that the fighters would then be restood on the feet and have a 5 minute overtime round in hopes of having a winner.  THE COMMENTATORS MADE MENTION OF THIS DURING THE FIGHT.  Jim Brown, for example, said it was a good idea to have the change in the rules because he felt the fans were getting restless.  This was very controversial because it was to Ken's advantage and Royce was very upset about it afterwards, and said so in numerous interviews.  This was one of the reasons that Royce "bowed out" from the later UFC's because of this new rule of the referee being able to split up the fighters was being enforced, which he did not agree with.  This needs to be added to the article.
:What happened is that after UFC 5, the Gracie family sold the portion of the UFC they owned. Once they had sold their financial interest in the promotion, the family had no interest in providing fighters to it. 75.17.126.16 (talk) 03:36, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Shamrock / Gracie "superbout" rematch

message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidehiko_Yoshida has hidehiko beating royce once and drawing royce once
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royce_Gracie has drawing, but not the loss
I am not sure which one is the correct record, but I wanted to bring this to your attention anyway.
--!phil
:Both can be considered the correct record.  Due to the fact that Yoshida x Gracie I was not under the normal Pride rules, some do not consider it an MMA match.  However, there have been a number of non-standard matches in Pride in the past, such as Silva x Filipovic, Sakaraba x Royce Gracie and others, and all are included in their records.  The controversy is mentioned in the article.  KingMob 17:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hidehiko Inconsistency 

message: This and other articles on Gracies and Gracie Jiu Jitsu are extremely POV and full of loaded language. I am placing an NPOV tag on this and other articles until edits can be made. --Malathion 01:26, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: i just re-read the article and i also don't see the alleged POV problems. IMO the NPOV tag should be removed but i don't want to get into an edit war over it. i suggest those who are for keeping the NPOV tag quote specific instances. this way they can be addressed and the POV tag removed. (i suspect the NPOV tag was for a previous version of the article and that most if not all of the POV statements have been addressed) uri budnik 01:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it does have some issues with regard to 'tone', and to sourcing.  (The two may also be linked to some degree.)  We're told things like, the Gracies revolutioned martial arts, changed public perceptions, etc, but these aren't backed up by objective evidence this is indeed the case on the one hand, or on the other, put in the context of someone notable who asserts this is the case.  Rather, we're told it's so in essayist style, in the manner of the "informed opinion" of the editor.  (Which gives it a POV reading, even if it's in fact entirely true.)  I'd also source and/or tone down the "explaining away" of his losses.  Alai 03:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you don't see the POV problems, I don't know what to say other than what Alai has already said.  The Explaining away of losses is just the most glaring of points. The mere fact that parts of this article read like Rorion's ads in Blackbelt during the early to mid 90's should be more than obvious.  Maybe everyone needs to read the NPOV entry again, or maybe just this entry.  The first paragraph is amazingly loaded and myopic, completely ignoring the fact that MMA was happening in Japan before the UFC. KingMob 16:18, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, when I saw the POV tag on top of this article I was expecting a lot o GRACIE HYPE all around it. But it did not show any signs of this on it´s current "incarnation". As a martial artist I really think (and also the majority or martial artists all around) that the Gracie´s changed the Martial Arts for good. Before those stunning victories on the UFC by Royce, there weren´t many fighters capable of defending properly against a grappler with good submission skills. After realizing this weakness in trainning, almost all martial artists started a cross-trainning of some sort. Quoting the article: "Royce Gracie (born December 12, 1966) is a professional Mixed Martial Arts fighter who revolutionized the martial arts world in the early 1990s with a string of quick victories over larger opponents in the UFC ... His results changed attitudes towards traditional martial arts and fueled a movement of fighters towards the grappling arts." - I don´t think its is POV. Unless you really want to deny the facts that happening a little after the first 3 UFCs... Loudenvier 12:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Also KingMob stated that the article completely ignores that MMA was happening in Japan before the UFC. I can argue that it also complely ignores that MMA was happening in Brazil for almost a centrury before going to the USA. It also ignores that MMA had happend in USA in the early 1900´s when Judo champion Yoshitsugu Yamashita went to USA to promote Judo. Citing the site Judo Info: ...President Theodore Roosevelt also invited him to teach at the Naval Academy. In an arranged fight there, Yamashita beat George Grant (6'3 230lb), an American wrestler. Grant was thrown with Tai-otoshi and Yoko-otoshi before being pinned. Because of this impressive victory Yamashita was awarded a 2 year contract to continue teaching at the Naval Academy. None of this affects the claim that it was the Gracies that brought back grappling and MMA to prominance, despite the fact that it was happening in Japan a few months before the UFC started. I think it would be POV to actually deny this. The Gracies are not everything they claim. They are much like a franchise, but they kept MMA alive for almost a century in Brazil and they were a key factor in the current MMA scene. Could anyone deny that it was the UFC that gave the momentum necessary for MMA current status and grappling return to vogue? (if there were no further comments I will remove the POV notice soon) Loudenvier 12:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The article looks good.  The only thing I would consider changing is the opening paragraph.  Obviously the Gracie family had an big impact in the shift towards the grappling arts in MMA.  The dispute seems to be that they were the major or only reason the shift happened.  I made some minor changes to the wording in the opening paragraph to hopefully alleviate the belief that this article is POV.Stones12 15:17, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Man, you did a very subtle but great job! I was going to make some edits to the article later to try to alleviate the POV impressions the article may provoke among Gracie "haters" (when I had the time), but the opening paragraph now seems perfect to me! Thanks for your wikicooperation. Regards Loudenvier 19:21, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV problems 

message: The article reads this: Others countered that Royler suffered a broken arm and several torn muscles stemming from the submission, validating the Sakuraba victory. People that tell this do not saw the fight and do not know Royler. If Royler arm was broken he could not move/use it as he did just after Sakuraba released the lock. And also it must be acknowledge that Royler is the most flexible of the Gracies. He is really very very flexible. It seems almost impossible to submit him with Kimura (Ude garami) as Sakuraba did. He is able to grab his left ear with his right hand passing it BEHIND his back (in a way like the Kimura lock). In other words it is almost impossible to bring his arm on his back (as in Ude Garami) far enough to stemm his muscles or broke his arm, and even more difficult if it is done by the angle that Sakuraba was doing it. I think we should at least say that there were no evidence for these people claims that Royler had his arm broken on the article text. Loudenvier 16:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've only heard rumors of that situation that it was broken, but no real evidence.  However, just because you broke your arm, doesn't mean you can't use it.  Forest Griffin had his arm broken in a fight in Brazil and continued fighting without much trouble.  However, real evidence that Royler can bend his arm that far back without trouble is similarly as anecdotal.  I think bringing up this fight in detail as such in Royce's Wiki posting is pretty much unnecessary.  In many ways, that 'controversy' was solved when Sakuraba mercilessly broke Renzo's arm with the same hold.  KingMob 17:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Renzo is not even near as flexible as Royler... But I really think this discussion should be done in Royler´s wiki article (if there is one...) :-) I (re)read the article, I think it´s fine as it stands. It do not support any side of the story, my first impression was wrong. But I have footage of many Royler´s BJJ fights: he used to let people go for the Ude Garami (Kimura) or Juji Gatame (cross arm-lock) when he was in a disadvantageous situation just to let his opponent relax thinking he would submit him so he could revert the situation. In the case of Juji Gatame he would escape rotating over the trapped shoulder, and in the case of the Kimura, he would simply let the opponet try and try again to submit him and them he would revert the situation when the opponent loose his balance in frustration Loudenvier 20:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I did not see the fight, nor do I know much about it, save for what was printed in this article.  I wondered if this entire passage was applicable here, just like you,Loudenvier.  What I concluded was that it enhanced the flow of the article and informed the reader of some of the possible reasons for Royce entering other tournaments.  I tried to take out as much of the POV as possible and still keep the article in tact.  There was the belief by some that the fight was stopped prematurely, which is stated in the article.  Someone took the time to add the belief that the victory was valid.  I thought it was balanced to include both arguments.  However, my bet is that there is no documentation of Royler's arm being broken, so that statement could certainly be changed to say that there is no medical proof to back up the broken claim.  Since my knowledge is limited on this subject, I will yield to the consensus on this one and will help with the phrasing and grammarStones12 22:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Royler vs. Sakuraba, can the truth be unveiled? 

message: I´ve seen a fight in K-1 between Royce Gracie and Genki Sudo that the article dont even mention. Actually , it was a loss for Gracie by TKO . He was beaten in the ground by punches. 	 
More missing data is also possible.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.150.135.149 (talk • contribs) 
:You sure you didn't see Genki Sudo vs. Royler??  Those two did indeed fight in K1.  SubSeven 17:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: INCOMPLETE MMA RECORDS DATA

message: In the Gracie Challenge section, there's a direct quote from Gracie that the kickboxer in question was "Bully the Judd". I just realized he meant Benny "The Jet" Urquidez and it seems the interviewer mistook it because of Gracie's accent. According to Clyde Gentry, it was the proposed challenge match with Urquidez that the 100,000 Gracie Challenge myth got started. I'll put up a cite next time I get a hold of the book. hateless 18:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billy the Judd 

message: its tagged this up top of the article. But I don't see any citation needed links by  any of the statements? Can the tag at the top be removed if the person who put it there can't show which statments need citation? Its like saying "fix it, but I won't tell you what's broke if anything".--Xiahou 01:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You're perfectly right... I think this tag could only be used if there is a lot (not only one or two) citation needed tags on the body of the article or section. On the other hand, the one who had put it there could have just the feel that a few citations would make the article to be taken more seriously, but he himself did not know the exact places to put the citation tags... Perhaps we that know a litle more of Royce's bio could read the article and put citation tags whenever something feels or reads controversal... Regards Loudenvier 14:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article or section does not cite its references or sources 

message: Royce's corner threw in the towel; Sherdog has it as a loss. I'll change it to loss. Thedoorhinge 01:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone changed it back to a no contest without even discussing it here, so obviously I changed it again. If they're going to keep changing it with no discussion, I'm not going to be drawn into an infantile battle over it.Thedoorhinge 03:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If the fight took place in the UFC, shouldn't you use what UFC stated?  It only makes since.  It seems alot of people on here are trying to use their own biases in place of clear sources.  mpa 9:38 EST  July 25, 2007
It counts as a loss, Fujita's corner did the same thing in Pride against Mark Coleman and it was a loss on his record. No question about it.Colemangracie 23:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

text: So... it just didn't happen? He showed up, threw in the towel, but it just doesn't count? Then why does Wikipedia's page on UFC 3 say "Harold Howard vs. Royce Gracie- Howard receives a bye due to Gracie throwing in the towel before the match started."? If Sherdog says it's imaginary, then they are wrong.Thedoorhinge (talk) 04:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  In order to contradict a generally reliable source like Sherdog, we need another reliable source and not personal analysis.  I do recall the "bout" against Howard previously being recorded as a loss, but I don't know what's happened to it since.  I haven't found any evidence that it's a "no contest", so the entry in the record table should either be removed according to Sherdog, or changed to a loss according to perhaps this. —LOL T/C 03:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, how about the UFC as a reliable source? The UFC's website has a profile on Royce Gracie, in which they list him losing to Harold Howard by KO/TKO. http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Royce-Gracie The win allowed Howard to advance to the final of the UFC 3 tournament. I should also mention that up until the end of 2010, Sherdog did also list the Howard fight as a loss on Royce's record.http://web.archive.org/web/20101203162744/http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Royce-Gracie-19 I don't know why they stopped listing it, the fight results were never even challenged, much less overturned. I think it should be listed in Royce's fight record. --FrancisC (talk) 11:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

text: It should be either Loss or removed completely. It was previously Loss on Sherdog and that way it is generally regarded. Dunno what happened to Sherdog and why it was removed. But I would still say we should go by Sherdog (the accepted source for MMA Records) and have it removed from the record for the sake of verifiability. --Tuoppi gm (talk) 09:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Why on earth should it be removed completely? It happened. Why else did Howard go to the finals? If it never happened, Gracie should have moved on as the more experienced fighter. Come on, Royce fanboys. It happened. He lost. His corner threw in the towel. Do you think they thought they saw a shivering, towel-less swimmer in the ring? Keeping this little corner of the internet ignorant of reality isn't helping anyone. Thedoorhinge (talk) 11:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: As of July 21, 2015, the UFC Website does not list the fight between Royce Gracie and Harold Howard.  http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Royce-Gracie - The UFC is the sanctioning body for the event not Sherdog.  If the UFC does not list the fight, then it never happened - which it didn't.  A No Contest or an explanation is warranted.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.41 (talk) 18:53, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Under the rules of the UFC, if a fighter enters the ring and throws in the towel, that is a loss. The UFC declining to list the fight does not mean the fight did not happen. The fight obviously did happen at the event. The visual evidence overrides any unexplained decision by the company not to list the fight. If the UFC wants to provide an explaination of why under their rules at the time, there was no fight, that would be acceptable. But there has never been such an explaination.75.17.126.16 (talk) 03:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  No contest against Harold Howard?

message: Hi all, it might be worth adding this about Royce and Rorion
"Modern Army Combatives began in the mid-1990s when the elite battalions of the 75th Ranger Regiment, specifically the 2nd Ranger Battalion, hired Gracie family instructors Royce and Rorion to instruct troops in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
The Rangers absorbed the teachings and became fanatic in their ground fighting, holding Battalion tournaments in which the victors were sent to study at the Gracie Academy in Torrance. The Rangers then began to modify the jiu-jitsu techniques for combat use."
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles.asp?n_id=3595
I'm fairly sure (but not positive) that Royce lived in Alaska during part of that time period.
LetterRip 16:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Biography

message: The "Notes" in the record section inaccurately stated that Royce had been "exhausted during the previous match" and therefore threw in the towel. This was in UFC 3 and his corner did throw in the towel, and it counted as a loss, but it was because of an injury acquired in a previous match. "Exhausted" and "injured" are very different things. Corrected.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philosopher2king (talk • contribs) 22:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fight Record: "Exhausted during previous match" 

message: In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) 
* "ufc60preview" :
** a
** UFC 60 Preview Show, Spike TV 2006
* "ufc2" :
** UFC 2, Semaphore Entertainment Group 1994
** b
* "ufc1" :
** b
** UFC 1, Semaphore Entertainment Group 1993
DumZiBoT (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bot report : Found duplicate references ! 

message: I would like to add a sourced quote that Royce made about steriods before he was found to havce used them.  I removed the unsourced portion of my edit.  Closetindex (talk) 01:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  steriod quote 

message: While the text of the section "The Gracie Challenge" seems neutral, I do not see a reference.  Closetindex (talk) 01:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Gracie Challenge 

message: He says in this interview that he has a black belt in karate as well. I'm not sure if this website is reliable. Anyone else ever hear about Royce having a black belt in karate?
Skeeter08865 (talk) 01:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Hi, he trains boxing for MMA . Never heard of it since I have been following him for 20 years.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.73.65.177 (talk) 19:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Black belt in Karate too?

message: I'm confused as to the right-side summary box that says he died of a Brain Tumor; however, it does not list a date, nor does the article represent him in the past-tense.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.98.222.16 (talk) 14:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He's not dead but I gave him a helluva beating last night and I bet he wishes he was! --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Died?? 

message: Royce is not officially retired and he manifested wish to fight again in the UFC ( superfight ) perhaps a rematch with Matt Hughes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.73.65.177 (talk) 18:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Retirement

message: Research the rift between Jim Hughes (West Hartford,CT) and his instructors. It involves eyewitness accounts of Extra Marital Affairs that Royce Gracie & Jim Hughes had after matches in CT.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.227.176.147 (talk) 01:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Royce Gracie & Jim Hughes Extra Marital Affairs 

message: I removed some content that was unsourced since 2009, deleted some PV, and removed some other content that was unsourced and a BLP violation. The article requires improved referencing with large sections having no source. The article reads like a fan site in some sections and the unreferenced descriptions of fights in particular need work or trimming back. Flat Out (talk) 04:18, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Issues with article

message: I wish to fix bare refs with a tool.--Catlemur (talk) 11:02, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protected edit request on 12 July 2015 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Royce Gracie. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060501220435/http://www.fairtex.com:80/news/news_view.php?n_id=264 to http://www.fairtex.com/news/news_view.php?n_id=264#picgallery
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 09:56, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Royce Gracie. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive archive.org/web/20101220174732/http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/719 to http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/719
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Dear Wikipedians
I have been editing the article adding more information and making it more complete. I have been talking with  which helped me correct any grammar mistakes I've added and correct into Wiki, unfortunately, he removed a lot of important context to the page. For example, "The Gracie brothers continued the family's tradition of the "Gracie Challenge", in which they challenged other martial artists to a no-holds-barred Vale Tudo match in their gym in order to prove the superiority of Gracie jiu-jitsu. The Gracie in Action tapes inspired Art Davie to create the UFC." losing an entire context about the tapes. Or adding downright inncurate information, such as claiming the Takada vs Gracie bout happened at the Pride FC: Grand Prix 2000 - Finals in May 1, 2000 and not at the Pride FC: Grand Prix 2000 - Opening Round at January 30, 2000. Which can be checked by all this fighting data bases (https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/events/pride-grand-prix-2000-opening-roundhttps://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/events/pride-grand-prix-2000-opening-roundhttps://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/events/pride-grand-prix-2000-finalshttps://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/events/pride-grand-prix-2000-opening-round). I still believe some of his changes were necessary and made the whole article better, but I also think he removed some of the information that had no reason to be removed. LordLoko (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for starting the discussion. I apologise I made a mistake confusing the two events. I have corrected that. I have also added the context to the tapes. As for the rest, the long descriptions of fights are not NOTABLE and largely unsourced.NEDOCHAN (talk) 18:05, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree in some points, for example, removing the description of UFC 5 the superfight makes absolutely no sense. It just says match lasted 36 minutes but the match is absolutely infamous in the whole MMA because Shamrock stayed 30 minutes on Royce's guard headbutting and punching him while Royce tried to sweep and get gi chokes. It is one of the most famous moments of UFC history and has been mentioned multiple times in other articles including the two sources provided and it recieves 0 context why it is even controversial. Second, on "Rivalry with Ken Shamrock" I wrote "Also according to Shamrock, he had underestimated his opponent, before the event he and his trainer and fellow Pancrase wrestler Masakatsu Funaki had watched the Gracie in Action tapes and were sure he could defeat him using his catch wrestling skills."https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/japans-rich-mma-history-the-ken-shamrock-interview-part-5-of-7/, a trustable source and important for the context of the their rivalry is not considered notable? I see the reason of most changes but some just look arbitrary.LordLoko (talk) 19:19, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

text:  Fights should be summarised very briefly and details such as discussions Shamrock had with Funaki are UNDUE in an article about Royce Gracie.NEDOCHAN (talk) 23:16, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Context and concision 

message: I was the person who originally added this point. A source for the victory is available on Sig Sauers official YouTube channel video titled Hunter Games 2022 at 6:00. I’m still new to editing Wikipedia so I don’t know how to add citations. 2603:800C:353C:F800:9D83:8573:86B9:4A9C (talk) 06:05, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  2022 hunter games