Talk:Kelly–Hopkinsville encounter

message: Harold Sherman, The Green Man: A Visitor From Space (1946) Octavius88 (talk) 14:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: You'll need a citation to show this is the actual origin of the "little green men" phenomenon. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 19:23, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't see any evidence it originated with this UFO incident. Octavius88 (talk) 19:54, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ultimate origin of Green Man From Outer Space 

message: Hi ‎LegalSmeagolian, I thought it might be best to hash out this (fairly minor) disagreement.  Urban Legend strikes me as bit of a poor fit here.  Our page defines such legends as "stories about an unusual (usually scary) or humorous event that many people believe to be true but largely are not."  The basics of the story here are basically accepted to be true--family sees something outside of house, gets scared, engages in firefight with something (quite possibly imaginary).  Now, the idea that they were fighting aliens, or goblins, or something else definitely sounds 'urban legend-y' to me, but I see that as sort of a side element of the event.  Moreover, "[i]n the past, urban legends were most often circulated orally, at gatherings and around the campfire for instance" (again from our article).  Again, that is not the case here, as our article states "the family's claims received widespread coverage in local and national press."  So, is there a lot of nonsense associated with whatever this was?  Absolutely.  But, for me, that does not mean it fits into the category of an urban legend.  But reasonable minds can certainly differ on the subject.  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:13, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it is a major element of the event, as the urban legend aspect is why it was notable. Otherwise it was just people shooting guns into the woods because they were scared, which is not really notable. I think the distinction between Category:Supernatural legends and Category:Supernatural urban legends is poorly defined, but I think if the press or tabloids reported on it in a way that highlights "ALIENS" then it fits urban legend status. Also List of Urban Legends has a lot of overlap with Category:Supernatural legend. Idk this is a much broader issue on wikipedia regarding catagories in the UFO/Fringe/Folklore space.  LegalSmeagolian (talk) 20:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: "Supernatural legend" would be a closer fit for me, but--the only universally agreed upon part of the event was "people shooting guns into the woods because they were scared."  Again, I think the fact that the story can be pinpointed as to the participants, the location, and the timing, belies the classic "friend of a friend" nature of urban legends which tend to have very malleable details.  For me, the fact that the press did report on it so much--even if much of it was woo--takes it out of the 'urban legend' genre.  But I'll leave it at that, and will revert no more unless and until it appears there's a majority for my view (and I'm not holding my breath).  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:34, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I gotta agree with Dumuzid, it's not an urban legend. It would be different if many people believe to be true the tale of a rural family attacked by aliens. But this was a print press story that went the equivalent of viral in its time, due to a rash of media attention to unidentified flying object reports in the 1950s. Are there any sources that specifically cite this as an urban legend, a supernatural legend, or a legend? That would be the definitive answer of how we should categorize it. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

text: @User:AHI-3000, join the conversation, don't just revert with no explanation. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:59, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't even understand why there's a dispute about this? I just created :Category:Supernatural urban legends, I saw that this article had both :Category:Supernatural legends and :Category:Urban legends, so might as well reduce the redundancy by replacing them with the appropriate combined subcategory. AHI-3000 (talk) 22:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, about categorizing this article's subject as a supernatural/urban legend, I don't see why you guys think that's not an appropriate label? This is a relatively modern folktale involving alleged visitation by otherworldly creatures, so this is both a supernatural legend and an urban legend. AHI-3000 (talk) 23:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, we should probably have some citations to books of folk tales in which this has an entry. Since it's supposedly a regional folk tale, a collection of Kentucky folk tales should contain it. Got a link? - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

text: I am not even sure 'folk tale' is an especially appropriate label: it was a widely reported incident at the time.  There is a sort of folktale element in that people have, over the years, embraced the 'alien' bit to some degree.  But the basic event does not fit 'folklore' to me.  Everyone agrees it happened.  It was investigated by authorities, and reported widely in otherwise respectable publications.  The fact that those involved had an outlandish tale to tell does not, to me, make it folklore.  In our article, some of the ways to identify bits of folklore are that they are "passed along informally, as a rule anonymously, and always in multiple variants."  None of these apply to the encounter here.  Much less is it, to me, an urban legend, which is a particular genre of folk tale.  Usually these are passed orally (or personally online in the modern day, as on message boards).  These often have malleable details and are frequently ascribed to "a friend of a friend."  Consider this language from our "urban legend" article: "Urban legends typically include common elements: the tale is retold on behalf of the original witness or participant; dire warnings are often given for those who might not heed the advice or lesson contained therein (a typical element of many e-mail phishing scams); and the tale is often touted as "something a friend told me", the friend being identified by first name only or not identified at all."  None of these apply to the encounter here.  My argument is not that anything we're talking about here is "real," I am merely saying that both folklore and urban legends are distinct genres, and it is possible for a something to be a load of nonsense and yet not fall into either genre.  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 00:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, couldn't help being a wise guy. Let me clarify. Those who want to categorize it as folklore, urban legend, superstition, etc. should provide citations to help demonstrate that it has notably been  included in those categories. Example; if it's a well known fact it is an urban legend, it should be easy to find a RS that describes it as such. Thanks. - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:19, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I absolutely agree with you, and yours is, all things equal, the more salient Wikipedia point.  But I also think the overarching point is relevant here, and worth bringing up -- even if I am being a bit pointy-headed about the whole deal.  To be clear, my screed above was aimed (in a respectful manner, I hope!) at the other two, not you.  Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 00:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a huge deal either way, do whatever ya'll. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

text: I'm less inclined to object to either version, since our main WP:FRIND source describes the story as "Filed under Aliens & UFOs, Urban Legends". - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Urban Legend?