Talk:Samuel of Bulgaria/Archive 1

message: VMORO, I have noticed the extensive referencing throughout all your articles regarding Macedonian history and I have noticed something that has to be discussed. Namely, your neutral referencing is highly deceptive - the encyclopedias you are quoting use Bulgarian sources. Most of the arguments considering the Macedonian question you have offered overall, not just in the Samuil question, are based on superficial "facts" based on similarly deceptive cross-referencing. You have used the term Bulgarian to always stand for the Bulgarian nationality as we know it today - although it has historically stood for different meanings and variations from "barbarian" to "Slav" - whereas the term Macedonian you have always interpreted in the geographical context. You have turned the Goce Delchev article into a text about the Bulgarity of the hero. You have accused people of vandalism whereas your activities have not been any less aggressive (you have accused me of deleting sections of the Delchev and Ilinden articles too although: 1. History shows I have never changed anything except the nationalities of these heroes and I did use arguments; 2. You have deleted portions of my early discussions). Bottom line is, you are not credible in the way you have taken the part of writing Macedonian history on the Internet - by imposing your personal interpretation through consistent posting and using deceptive referencing (not to mention the dose of rudeness about it). But let's get back to this article - there are different accounts on what Samuil was and what he wasn't - and they have to be included whether you like them or not. Considering this article, I am translating it for the Macedonian wiki at the moment in order to shut up a dispute that is going on between vandals on both Bulgarian and Macedonian side. This article will evolve and it will include both views. One thing I will personally not agree with at this moment: Samuil was not the great Bulgarian tsar you make of him. Ivica83 1:22, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Ivica! I can not understand what are you really want. It seems that you want to define Samuil like Macedonian ruler or at least to contest the Medieval Balkan history. OK, let suppose that the World made a mistake with assertion that Samuil was a Bulgarian ruler, but where are evidences for this? Bulgarian (i.e. domestic), Greek, Arabian, Croation sources from the Middle Ages ...? Point them. I can not defend VMORO and to study what exectly you have deleted and what he did, but If you want to change the history, you have to prove your oppinion. If I suddenly decide to maintain that Miguel de Cervantes wasn't a Spanish wtiter I should to point the evidences. The only I support you is that it is good to mention somewhere in the article that the official doctrine in present Republic of Macedonia look at Samuil like a Macedonian ruler (I don't know how many time it will continue). I think that to include many points of view and to be neutral do not mean to refuse of the assertion which is in general currency in the Historiography (Not only Bulgarian and European, Ivica, but even in present Serbian-see Srdan Pirivatric,present Serbian historical atlases etc.) Let see one more example: In the last decade came into sight many books which argue that the Holocaust is a fabrication but Wikipedia accepts the assertion in common use. Do you think that it is correct to do otherwise? Regards, --AKeckarov 14:23, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Sources

message: Dear all
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia.
I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. 
My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts.
Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia.
This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia?
Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs.
Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia?
If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!!
Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess.
But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it?
Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians.
Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family.
How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there?
Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito.
Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country.
Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians).
Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled).
Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors).
Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians.
If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed.
Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims.
Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web.
There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia.
The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect,
Igor Šterbinski
Skopje, Macedonia
is@on.net.mk
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ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people.
In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town.
Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?...
A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time.
Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case?
Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free.
Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.
On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.
On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS???
BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.
In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites.
I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change.
How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?
Senceirly,
Igor Šterbinski
Skopje, Macedonia
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JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS.
WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!
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I sterbinski 13:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral Wikipedia??? 

message: Cigor, the statement is "western Bulgaria or Macedonia". The text after that, as well as all mentions of him or his reign in other articles such as Basil II or History of Bulgaria (yes, he is included in History of Bulgaria and NOT in History of Macedonia), make it very clear which was the state he ruled over. And that is Bulgaria and not "Macedonia". By trying to take things out of the context, you won't get far. VMORO 21:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Read my response in Vukashin talk --Cigor 02:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Read my response there, as well, Cigor. By the way, I see where you draw all of your assumptions from - Ostrogorsky. But he is only one historian of many, hehe... And even he doesn't give support to the Macedonian fringe version. VMORO 12:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ostrogorsky is not my only source, I assure you but it is convenient for me as I have a hard copy of “History of Byzantine State”. Also he DOES support the view that Samuil’s empire was not Bulgarian. Now I am pasting your last response from Vukashin’s talk page and moving it here because this is more appropriate place to talk about Samuil.--Cigor 01:20, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Games a la Miskin in [[Macedonian Slavs]]

message: I still think that a few of the main arguments of the Serbo-Macedonian theory must be added back with appropriate counter-arguments by the mainstream.  Not lengthy passages but just a couple of summary sentences.  Right now the reader does not understand what the alternative theory is based on. (VMRO 15:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I personally wouldn't mind another paragraph about the same size of the current one we have now, so feel free :) Todor→Bozhinov 16:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Adding back a few things

message: The bulk of this article, both the general and alternative theories are uncited. I've added the  tag, and restored some passages from the history which are cited. The article needs more citations not less. I think the alternate theory section is probably of an ok length, but the rest of the article needs to be expanded. Come on, people have written entire books on this, and you can only manage a few paragraphs? - Francis Tyers · 15:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidentally, the Bulgarian article seems much longer, perhaps some stuff could be translated from there? - Francis Tyers · 15:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The best treatise on Samuil that was recently written is by a young Serbian historian - Srdjan Pirivatrich.  I would say his work is most up to date.  Someone needs to cite from him, etc.  Also Steven Runciman, the eminent British historian, has a good book but his is slightly dated. (VMRO 20:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  This is another recent work by a Western scholar.  Has some space devoted on the modern mythology created in Yugoslavia regarding Samuel. (VMRO 21:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Uncited

message: My name is Dragomir Minkov from Bulgaria and I want to tell some things about Macedonian – Bulgarian issue. 
First I think that how you call Bulgarians and Macedonians (in present country Macedonia) is not such a big problem because it is clear for almost anyone that they are one nation (or may be they was, we was). When I finish reading all of Igor’s writing, I’m very sure that he (and his grandfather) can give us may be a thousands more facts to argue me! I can tell you one thing: I tried to read some parts of Wikipedia on Russian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Croatian but I did not understand much, but guess what – I did understand all and I really mean all when I change to Macedonian. I’m not saying that Macedonian language is a Bulgarian dialect, but I’m saying that they have almost no grammar differences! That is a fact that Macedonians and Bulgarians can see more easily that all facts that Igor told us, just switch Wikipedia’s languages where this is available.
After 1885 and next 10-15 years Present Macedonia is not given to Bulgarian Country because of scare of Western, Central and European countries of existing of such a big country in Balkans and many Macedonians did not want this too. After the two World Wars, Macedonia was included in Yugoslavia because Bulgaria in the two cases was defeated. There are many more reasons.
Even that my mother is born in Bulgarian town Goce Delchev, I’ve never been in west-southern Bulgaria (Bulgarian Macedonia) and I live in Varna (on the Black Sea)! I’ve talk once or twice with people from that region and I’m pretty sure that Igor will understand them more clearly and faster than me!
To talk NOW about that Bulgaria and Macedonia should be one country is not serious. For example: Are Russia and Ukraine one country now (even that their situation is a little bit different)? 
Bulgaria and Macedonia have different Present and they will have different future! But they had one Past and Delchev is not Bulgarian or Macedonian now, he was Bulgarian Macedonians then.
And "Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian?" - Because Macedonia was part of Bulgarian Country before Turkish Empire and he wanted all regions where were living bulgarians (bulgarian macedonians) to be free and that is what people were called that part of Bulgaria - Macedonia!
I don’t know what Igor’s grandfather really told him (if even Igor’s grandfather does or exist) but it is first time that I heard that Bulgaria attacked Macedonia in Second World War. Even that is true, and this suspicious grandfather of Igor is really shot 3 times (and all 3 times by Bulgarians, don’t forget!!!), I’m not sure that he can tell what really happened those days or what was real situation then or anything that we can except for an even 50% truth! Why? Because my grandfather (who also was a soldier in Second World War) though and he was convinced that Communist ideology are the best thing that ever happened on Bulgaria and in the World and communists they never would do (or did) anything bad or no humanity or crime to anybody!!! We all will agree that this is absolutely not true and we cannot take all words of our parents and grandparents for true and just 10 minutes talking to them will convince us in something that 95% of historians (who are people that are professionals in that area) told and tell us that are not true!!!
About Tsar Samuel, It was so long a go but again most of sources tell that he was been Bulgarian King and because of Capital of former Bulgarian Empire was moved in Ohrid, some “genius” was decided because Present Macedonia has no really history, why he cannot created one!? And became propagate that and now Macedonia has thing with what to be proud! I think that is very GOOD idea because it is popular theory ONLY in Macedonia!
About that present Macedonians have anything common with people had lived in Macedonian Empire or talks about that there was people lived in those lands - I will say that I am descendant of Adam and Eve. 
dragomir.minkov@gmail.com
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drago.soon (talk • contribs) 11:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  On response of Igor Sterbinski’s talking about “Neutral Wikipedia???” 

message: Wikipedia let's us down once again. Samuil is Macedonian.  Had the creators of this page done their homework, they would have recognized the ever increasing influence of pro-bulgarian and pro-greek lobbyists who perpetuate the belief of Macedonian history being anything other than Macedonian.
Wikipedia has therefore become a joke not recognizing the existence of Macedonian heritage and history.
What a waste.
209.247.5.15 01:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Samuil is and always will be Macedonian!!! 

message: I am from Slovenia and am studiing history. My mother is macedonian and (in exeption of one Montenegrian ancestor) so are her forefathers. She taught me Macedonian language when I was litle. I can easily comunicate with other Macedonians, but Bulgarian language is for me as distinkt as Serbocroatian or Russian from Slovenian (and I fluently speak and write in all three of them, plus Macedonian). But I do not understand Bulgarian and I have two friends from Bolgaria and we have to (sadly) conversate in English. So the language is a proof for the nation, the second will be DNA. I can add this: Turkish historical references are most acurate! After all, they rulled theese lands for almost 500 years! And -hell!- if they destinct Bolgarians from Greeks and Macedonians, than it shoore must be true (and they do). I CAN'T WAIT FOR DNA TESTING TO BE INTRODUCED AS PART OF POPULAR CENSUS, BECAUSE I AM NOT HALF BOLGARIAN, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE AND SAMUEL WAS A MACEDONIAN TZAR (WHEN YOU OMIT ALL BOLGARIAN AND OTHER HISTORY FALSIFICATES). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.212.74.52 (talk) 17:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Macedonism.   /FunkyFly.talk_  18:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Macedonian or Bolgarian