Talk:Spanish Civil War/Archive 3

message: Did black really have that political connotation?
Black is the color of priests, but also of the Anarchists (compare the flags of Falange ana CNT).
Falangists were blue.
Besides, PNV would not consider themselves as "red".
Don't know about Catalan nationalism.
--Error 00:48, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Black

message: I believe that centrist parties usually fell nearer the 'Rebels' than the Republic.  In fact, the war started some months after a left-wing coalition (the Popular Front) won the election. The defeated government was supported by an alliance of right-wing parties (the famous CEDA) and centrist parties. In fact, the rebellion in Asturias in 1934 started after three minister of the CEDA (if I remember well) got into the Republican Government presided by Lerroux. I also believed that in the elections of 1936, in some areas, center and right-wing parties formed coalitions.
Because of that, to claim that centrist parties fought in the Republican side is a mistake in my opinion. In any case, I would be glad to hear other points of view. 
Regarding Freemasonry, its importance was huge in the years before the war. Azaña, the president of the Republic during the war and President of the Government several times before it, was a Freemason who entered the order in 1932 because he coveted its power and influence. Roosevelt is known to have been a Freemason and is said to have preferred the Republican cause due to this. (Although I believe that preference had no material results I think it is significant if the attitude of the US towards the Civil War is to be explained.)
If you want some citation I could recommend you "LAS CAUSAS DE LA DERROTA DE LA REPÚBLICA ESPAÑOLA" (more or less "Causes of the defeat of the Spanish Republic"), written by Stoyán Mínev, deputy of the Communist International in Spain during the war. The book devotes a whole chapter to explain the influence of Freemasonry, that is considered a major factor (together with several others, of course) in the conflict. 
Probably, that book is difficult to find out of Spain (and in Spain, to be honest) so I would also propose you "The Cypresses believe in God" by José María Gironella, which I suppose is easier to find (I have found a lot of links to it using Google at least). It is a novel about the years prior to the Civil War whose aim is to explain with total objectivity the causes leading to the conflict. In my opinion, it is a must for everybody who wants to understand the war and its causes.
There you have a lot of information about Freemasonry and its influence in those years as some of the characters are Freemasons. Zapatancas 09:03, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, can you give fuller citations on these books and be clear about just what you are taking from where (especially on the influence of Freemasonry)? I'm not objecting to such material being in the article, but because it is clearly going to be controversial, it should be well-cited. (You may want to see Wikipedia:Cite sourcesif you are not already familiar with it.) -- Jmabel | Talk 06:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Centrism and Freemasonry in the Civil War 

message: I agree with earlier above's "far from reluctant" re Brit.Gov.I also see no reason why sources either way should be controversial , and agree that expansion is needed, to relate this war to its preceding revolution, whether here or at that other article.
Separately,about 4 years ago BBC radio referred to Churchill in connection with the subsequent Franco neutrality and reported an explosive fact. I have no proof of this, but believe that Martin Gilbert related it from  Brit Gov't archives: that Churchill/The Admiralty secured Spanish neutrality during WWII by "influencing" a couple of Admirals and Generals close to El CaudilloFrancisco Franco. I do remember that the sum was 5 million in Sterling . I believe that this fact is completely un-known within Spain itself , and that it would prove to be utterly explosive. I request anybody with access to recent documents to confirm this. It could come under consequences  or Spain etc.
I made a reference recently as to the fact that Stalin pulled the plug (on the Soviet supply of arms), having decided that it were better for the fascists to succeed , and that he did this in expectation of the greater fascist war looming, the which he saw as presenting great opportunity. This may have some bearing here, too, but needs sourceing. Alan Bullock only says that Stalin decided that there was no further advantage to be gained after Munich. 
In Spain some towns right beside one another prefer different diminutive: some use -íllo , some use -íto. (V)amos a dar un paseíllo por alli . Example - vaso, vasillo/vasito. It could even be that paseíto was used because it was not a soft pasaíllo. Or because a vasillo more often than not means a small-but-first-of-many glass, like copilla .Executions were generally made in the prettier picnic spots where, now, Easter Sunday excursions are made. In the same inversion a paseito would suit a death march. 
And, Rusos are still remembered badly from both ends of the political spectrum, for opposite reason. But: Can we find that Gold? Is Koestler's book following the Stalinist political cynicism called The Yogi and the Commissar?  Why do Italian arms seem rather absent- indeed all arms ; and the gold shipment from Cartagena to Odessa ? EffK 10:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Churchill bribery; Stalin conclusion;Italian arms;Paseo

message: I've put Unamuno on the  list of  and nationalist supporters. . He was an early supporter of the rebels, and was scrapped of his rectorship by the republicans therefore. But he seems to have become increasingly unsatisfied with the evolution. His clash with Millán Astray has become topical on the antifranquist propaganda, but he still had the personal support of the Franco's family, and his funeral had a falangist guard of honour ... Que país--Wllacer 11:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miguel de Unamuno 

message: To all interested in spanish history. 
The Boletin Oficial del Estado (Spanish state official paper) has set up a  web site with scanned images of ALL of its content from 1875 up to 1967. It's part of a more general  site. You can find there ALL the laws and decrees of the spanish goverment (of both parties during the war) and many other petty official documents. I'm using it since a couple of days (just look a couple of lines upward) but it's amazing--Wllacer 13:37, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wllacer, those URLs don't seem to be working, are you sure you got them right? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Oops. I added an unneeded pipe char. They are working now. Thanks Joe --Wllacer 08:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll add a note at Wikipedia:Free or semi-free non-Public-Domain information resources. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Online Legislative Database