Talk:Calormen

message: I have commented out (made invisible) some possibly POV sentences.  Here is what I commented out:
* "in general and Islamic civilization in particular."
* "and are generally characterized within the Narnian chronicles as being rapacious, avaricious, frivolous, indolent and corrupt."
* "The generally negative characteristics of Calormen and its people have led to accusations of racialism against Lewis."
The reason why I did this is because I feel that these sentences may too strongly give the impression that Lewis was anti-muslem.  While possibly true, this is a bit of a POV.
As an aisde, I appreciate Centauri's contributions and his adding significant information to this entry.  Welcome to Wikipedia! Samboy 10:01, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  I commented out some possibly POV sentences 

message: Is it appropriate to include a plot/spoiler warning here? This is an article about one country in the Narnia universe. Calormen is neither a book nor a film, and as far as I can tell, the Wikipedia standard seems to be to include a spoiler warning only in the context of an article devoted to a particular film or literary narrative.--Centauri 00:22, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I checked Hogwarts (a place) and Harry Potter (a character), neither one a film nor a narrative, both had a plot spoiler warning.  Since the ending of two C.S. Lewis books are summarized, a plot spoiler is probably a good idea for the kiddies out there.  Revmachine21 00:39, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Plot/spoiler warning?

message: I was contemplating adding a sentence about how the word "Calormen" when used as a proper noun is spelled without an 'e' at the end, and when used as an adjective has an 'e' at the end. Most of the people who've contributed to the article seem to know this, but is this something that should be pointed out to people who are reading the article as a reference? Starfoxy
Sounds like a good idea to me. --Centauri 22:30, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling 

message: I think this is a good idea. Jeffr 16:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call; it can be undone later if need be, but for now I've gone ahead and changed all the links to Calormene to Calormen, and turned it into a redirect. We don't have separate articles for adjectival forms of nations, to my knowledge. -- nae'blis (talk) 19:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merging Calormen and Calormene 

message: "The Calormenes all have a desire for the current Tisroc to be immortal, which may indicate brainwashing at a young point in life."
:The fact that Calormenes always seem to say "may he live for ever," to me does not say they are particularly brainwashed, but is instead more of a cultural idiosyncrasy, and an enforced mark of respect, much like referring to the British Queen as "Her Royal Highness," and is done even if there is no real respect for the tisroc
::Agreed. It's likely been borrowed from "inshallah" (god willing), a term that's appended to the end of sentences concerning future events by many Arabs, eg "I'll see you tomorrow, inshallah". --Centauri 23:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Book of Daniel, the courtiers of Nebuchadnezzar and Darius--including Daniel [Dan 6:21]--address the King with the words "O King, live forever!" It was a polite form of address; I don't think C.S. Lewis thought that the prophet Daniel had been brainwashed. -- Narsil 09:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brainwashing? 

message: I would like to suggest that we merge the Tarkaan article into the calormen article. There is a paragraph of information there and it seems to me that that is about all of the information there is on the subject.  It would make a nice section here instead of a permanent stub there. Please post any comments for or against the merge LloydSommerer 22:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think that the article should be merged. Ari (talk) 05:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge [[Tarkaan]] article to Calormen 

message: Some of the material on this page comes from the "Narnian timeline", not from the Chronicles themselves. (Specifically, the claim that Calormen was settled by Archenlander outlaws descended from King Frank, and not, e.g., by a separate group from Earth, as Telmar was.) As I understand it, this timeline is of doubtful provenance (part of the "Hooper controversy").
I feel that if we're going to include material not from the Chronicles themselves, we ought at the least to note its questionable source. Me, I'd be happier going just by the books... what say others? -- Narsil 09:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've responded to you on Talk:Narnian timeline. Lewis himself supplied the timeline for a commentary book on Narnia. It's considered canon, I believe. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 03:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I took it upon myself to rewrite that paragraph somewhat--I kept the statement about Calormen being settled by Archenlander exiles, but I noted its source (the Timeline, not the Chronicles themselves). Hope that's acceptable! -- Narsil 01:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looks fine, though didn't it establish in Horse and His Boy that this was true as well, and supported in the timeline? Hmm, don't feel like searching for a reference right now… --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 02:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I sure don't remember anything like that from TH&HB, but I don't quite have the books memorized... -- Narsil 20:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info from [[Narnian timeline]]? 

message: I removed the entire Commentary section since it clearly contravened the Wikipedia's foundational policy on original research.  It is still availible in the page history if people want to restore it (or parts of it) or merge parts into the rest of the article.  Eluchil404 09:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commentary 

message: Please note Wikipedia's Manual of Style on writing about fiction (WP:WAF).  Wikipedia's articles should be written from the perspective of the real world and critical discussion of the material, not merely its in-universe fictional story.
I have tried to remedy this a little, by using material from the Chronicles of Narnia article to look at the disputed question of racism, which is one of the most important critical questions about the Calormenes.
But it would be useful to review the material deleted above be Eleuchi404 in this edit , particularly on C.S. Lewis's objectives and inspirations for the Calormenes, to see how much of it can be sourced, to change this article so that it is at least top and tailed from a real-world position.  (It is important that the lead paragraph also should be written from a real-world perspective, and summarise some of the critical discussion, not just in-story material).
Jheald 11:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  In-universe perspective 

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thread_title: File:Calormenflag.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: The section below the NPOV stinks of trying to excuse racism from the books, as well as original research. 219.89.16.145 (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems reasonably well sourced to me. What parts do you think are OR and which parts are NPOV? LloydSommerer (talk) 01:25, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

text: Never the less, the accusation of racism has been made by other authors of children's literature.  It then seems to me that the article goes on to point out the many counterpoints to that accusation that have been offered. I just don't see it as lacking a NPOV if both the accusation and the arguments against the accusation are presented. You could argue that the accusation is not Notable, but you should first look through the archives of the talk page for the main Chronicles of Narnia page where that discussion has taken place. LloydSommerer (talk) 21:10, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

text: I think that the reference to the colour of the European skin is cultural racism, so I have removed it from the above comment, if nobody minds. Ari (talk) 10:25, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I've restored it; please don't edit comments that are not your own. -- Elphion (talk) 14:07, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

text: The video that one of the commenters posted is not watchable by the visually impaired. As far as I can here, there are only pictures and music and the sound of the pages of books being turned and no audio commentary. I am requesting you to send a video with audio commentary for the sake of those of us with vision impairement. Ari (talk) 10:32, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Is the article cited in the sources really by him? Its link offers no conclusive proof (and no connection with the Indy, the stated source on wiki), and his novels refer with affectionate detail to Reepicheep (cf his 'The Fit'); plus the sledgehammer, self-confessedly, blokishly Philistine style seems completely off to me. Unless this is some other viciously Lewisophobe P Hensher of whose existence I'm totally unaware, the attribution seems to range from unlikely to impossible. I'd guess the real author was a professional Indy hack (someone along the lines of Rod Liddle or Giles Coren?).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.169.192 (talk) 17:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems to be the original, but I don't know anything about it. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/dont-let-your-children-go-to-narnia-1189015.html LloydSommerer (talk) 12:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Philip Hensher 

message: What is that whole section of stuff about "well Lewis doesn't say the negative aspects of Calormene culture come from their skin color, in fact to say so would be racist therefore it's not racist"? That is some original research over there. Cultural racism is very much a form of racism, reflecting colonialist/orientalist attitude that was used to justify a lot of bigotry for a very long time. Can we refrain from making puerile arguments like that and just stick to the facts? It reads like an essay somebody wrote for a cultural criticism class in undergrad after deciding they knew better than their texts! Staying stuff about why pointing out cultural stereotypes is racist diminishes the thrust of this whole article, because the content is so badly informed and juvenile. We don't need to be arguing points like that in here! Lewis reflected the racism of his time but mitigated it with the occasional charitable moment. To point that out isn't what's racist.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.64.35.46 (talk) 09:46, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cultural racism 

message: The problem with reading The Last Battle debate over the Tash/Aslan equivalancy as a Christ/Allah equivalancy is that it is essentially made about arguments that were in the future when Lewis wrote. We need any such discussion to be based on actual sourcing, preferably about any actual comments by Lewis on the issue. The last battle was published in 1956 by a writer who came of age in a Britain where the crown of the empire was India. While the honorific following the title of the Tashban does sound vaguely like some honorific connections in Arabic culture, the actual evidence points more to Lewis drawing for his sourcing on accounts of the ancient Middle East, the realms of Babylon, and by some arguments Egypt, not post-Islamic empires. Others point out that Tash resembles a Hindu God, and if we keep in mind the gem of the empire was India we may be focusing more on the right things. What would probably do more good is to look at the actual Christ equivalency arguments made in the West in the 1950s and earlier by various philosphers, not look at the religion of peace debates of the 2000s or Bernie Sanders attempt to exclude a person from government office based on his having written arguments about how Islam and Christianity are distinct religions.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:20, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calormen and Islam