Talk:Quackwatch/Archive 2

message: The above phrase in Mission and scope : It is not referenced. Who has decided that the treatments are ineffective or misleadingly marketed  ? Does not appears NPOV in that form... NATTO 03:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Alteripse Hold your horses here. First I am not the only editor on this page and I would like to point out that we previously arrived at an agreement on the issue of the review below which subsequently unilaterally breached by some of the editors. Second the heavy handed approach is not what Wikipedia is all about.  We are supposed to discuss the issues. Regarding the phrase "for his uncritical advocacy of ineffective or misleadingly marketed treatments" that is clearly your POV since you put it there. However it is not referenced so as it stand it is not in accordance with WP:NPOV. So let's take a deep breath and cool down a bit.NATTO 03:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  (for his uncritical advocacy of ineffective or misleadingly marketed treatments). 

message: This section is ridiculously out of proportion. Let's park the quotes here and summarize them. alteripse 03:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Hostility to all alternatives was expected and observed from the website, but not repetition of groundless dogma from mainstream medicine...It remains a mystery how they [Quackwatch] and I have interpreted the same body of medical science and reached such divergent conclusions.....It is very probable that many...vistors to the website have been misled by the trappings of scientific objectivity...At least 3 of the activities in the Mission Statement...have been shown to be flawed as actually executed...Medical practitioners such as Robert Atkins, Elmer Cranton and Stanislaw Burzynski, whom I demonstrated are not quacks, were attacked with the energy one would hope to be focused on real quacks. The use of this website is not recommended. It could be deleterious to your health.  "
If you have read Kauffman's article you must recognize that it displays every single flaw he imputes to quackwatch: he misrepresents legitimate scientific and medical controversies (e.g., about cholesterol), attacks Barrett for positions that he does not argue in detail and are peripheral to the purpose and scope of the website, uncritically accepts and argues only the quack sides of controversies, and the article is dripping with innuendo and unsupported villification, which is exactly what he criticizes Quackwatch for. He claims to have established that Atkins, Cranton, and Burzynski "are not quacks" but in fact did no such thing, while Barrett mainly claimed that their treatments were unproven. I have no objection to listing him and referencing his article as part of a list of critics, but his article is too weak to deserve to be referred to in this article as some sort of objective scientific review. If there had been any substance in his criticisms, you know it would have been published in a real medical journal. Mainstream medical journals such as NEJM and Lancet attack medical practices and institutions every month, but the attacks are intelligent, usually accurate, and have been peer-reviewed. His is amateurish and superficial and he clearly had made up his mind ahead of time exactly what he was planning to find. Publication in the JSE just screams that he wanted to avoid any sort of examination of his own article for "factuality, fairness and scientific currency". Let's leave the paragraphs parked here and move on to the others, and summarize them in a more concise and less repetitive criticism section. alteripse 03:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Let's leave it in the article until something is decided. Levine2112 03:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well, I agree with Levine on this. Unilateral bulk deletions are not the way to constructively edit an article just because one editor does not agree with an item in the article. We have already discussed this review on the talk page before and we can again. NATTO 03:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, Kauffman does a better job of analyzing Quackwatch than the majority of Quackwatch's analyses of anything. Kauffman's report is filled with scientific references instead of opinions. He points out that QW seems to ignore evidence which is contrary to their "side". Above all, remember, this is an article about Quackwatch, not about Kauffman. His critque is one of the most valuable and insightful in this section and it would be a shame to lose it. I'd much prefer to lose another rather than this one. Levine2112 03:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Here we go again with the cheap accusations :-( .Whatever the point of view of individual editors on Kauffman and the review, he is credible, he is independant  and the source is a published journal. The point of view of QW is clearly represented in this article and so should the point of view of those who differ. That is what WP is all about. We work at finding the best way to do it NPOV. As far as the text listing everything in the review, it is incorrect. The text about the Forbes review DOES LIST EVERYTHING. NATTO 03:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alteripse, this is not about your opinion or mine. This is about encyclopedic information regarding Quackwatch. Fact is, Kauffman's article passes the test and is therefore admissable here. Please don't start an edit war over this. Let's hear discussion from others. Levine2112 04:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Good idea. Lets cool down and think objectively :-) NATTO 04:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  I agree in part with User:MastCell whose comments I appreciate. There are editors on both side of the fence, so there is not point in painting one side over the other. The goal is to follow WP policy as objectively as possible and User:MastCell is making a good point :-) NATTO 05:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: synopsis of criticisms

message: I believe Quackpot Watch, which Bolen describes as the archive for his email newsletter, is considered unsuited as an External Link according to the following source:
* 1.3 Links normally to be avoided
The following phrase would allow an External Link to Bolen's archive of his factually inaccurate and libelous mailings to be placed on an article about himself:
* "if the subject of an article has an official website, then it should be linked to even if it contains factually inaccurate material."
The most important accusations he makes against Barrett, NCAHF, and Quackwatch, are by his own admission under forced deposition, "euphemism." He has no proof at all.
The article about Quackpot Watch, which I contributed to in a large way since I know about Bolen and his writings probably better than any other editor here (except Barrett himself), was deemed to violate Wikipedia policies and to not be notable enough to keep here. It was deleted after an AfD. I was very much in doubt about this AfD, since I didn't understand those rules very well at the time, and I felt that the article expressed the essence of Bolen's viewpoints accurately, especially since he was quoted extensively, accurately, and fairly. After reading the other votes and the policies to which they referred, I finally acquiesced and voted this way:
*Delete. Fails WP:WEB miserably. Main content of website is conspiracy theories and libelous statements. No documentation. Admits under deposition his vicious lies are just "euphemism." No evidence of reliability or credibility. Nothing but opinions prefaced with "I believe" and "I think." -- Fyslee 19:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quackpot Watch unsuited as an External Link

message: When an editor is blocked from editing a particular article, when does the block start ?NATTO 22:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: about bedtime ;> --I'clast 23:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  It goes into effect when the admin actually does it, not from the time the user is warned. There is then a specified time limit for the block. The block which Levine2112 and I just experienced was for 12 hours, and applied to all of Wikipedia, except our own user and talk pages, if I recall correctly. Attempts anywhere else were met with a big notice and only source could be viewed, but no editing done. A weird experience! -- Fyslee 09:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  I saw 4 reverts from each, I later saw Frylee apologize. Editors aren't blocked from editing a particular article though unless it's by WP:ARBCOM. They should avoid the article for 24 hours as soon as you reach 3 reverts though. Jaranda wat's sup 00:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Block from editing an article 

message: OK... whoah... wait a minute. Let's review WP:EL. "The number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other." Suddenly we've got a whole legion of anti-QW links, which is a violation of WP:EL. Let's pick one or two that are most agreeable to the anti-QW editors, and trim the rest. See my above comments - one or two anti-QW links are OK, but turning the External Links section into a clearinghouse for criticism of QW is inappropriate and a policy violation. I won't delete any right now; I'd rather leave it to the anti-QW folks to choose - but let's trim them down to a reasonable size. MastCell 02:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Or else, maybe the "reverse form" of Gresham's law is operating here.  In an open marketplace, good commodities drive out the "bad" or the short weight, fiat driven ones.  Looks like there might be some demand for QW to at least quit clipping the intellectual coin of the realm. ;> --I'clast 07:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  MastCell, If you have a look at the added links, I have also added pro QW links as well ( in Other Links _ could be renamed pro QW ? )so it is not one sided. I added the links to the Chiro websites as QW is highly critical of chiropractic so I thought it was only fair for them to be included. You are welcomed to add more relevant links if you wish. Lets not jump to premature conclusions please . :-)NATTO 04:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right, I had reviewed the first 4 and made an assumption about the last 2, which are in fact supportive of QW's objectives. MastCell 05:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Thanks MastCell. You see we can get along pretty well :-) NATTO 09:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proliferation of external links 

message: David D. wrote earlier "If we really go with precedent then Bolen and his website Quackpot watch should be mentioned as a critic in the intro. There are countless examples of this in wikipedia." Since Quackpotwatch is redirected to this article and since Bolen, like it or not, is a prominent critic of QW, this is a sensible suggestion. What is the view on this ? NATTO 03:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Way over the bounds. Bolen is paid to criticize Barrett, by his own declaration. Nothing he says is of value to this article. alteripse 03:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the critics of Quackwatch are amply represented in the article as is. Placing a mention of Bolen and QuackpotWatch in the intro is inappropriate; the best approach is what we have now (mention that there are critics, then give the critics their own section later in the article) - that's in line with Wikipedia precedent on controversial topics. MastCell 04:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that "... not free from criticism and controversy" understates the situation and needs short, maybe subtle, improvement, but am not really that wild about single party entities as "The oppositon" in the intro *verbiage*. I like a more general stmt. Maybe simple references after the improved generalization with 2 sources would be appropriate.  Frankly, Bolen wouldn't be my first choice, you really need another broad commentator for such a reference or even another public example of controversy.--I'clast 07:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I guess I think that Quackpotwatch should be a stub article w/o being a platform.--I'clast 08:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a few references after the "not without critics" sentence makes sense. I don't agree that QuackpotWatch deserves a stub article. I wasn't privy to the AfD debate, but QuackpotWatch seems to be a self-published website by someone with an axe to grind, and would seem to fail most applications of WP:NOTE for its own article. If every controversial topic then included WP pages describing every critical website, things would quickly get out of control. Let's reference it in the intro, cite it under "Critics", and leave it there. MastCell 18:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Without getting into a discussion about whether Quackpotwatch deserves an article or not, it is true that it is a self published website, but so is QW. I agree with User:MastCell that a better and more descriptive wording regarding the criticism of QW is needed in the intro. This is especially relevant since QW itself does not present a balanced , objective view of the modalities and individuals criticised. This is well described in the SB article.  Even Forbes has noted the particular ( one sided )health orientation of QW and it's rather harsh tone combined with lack of information to support some of it's listings.... and that is a GOOD review of QW. NATTO 00:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

text:  Apologies if I misunderstood what you meant. Still the intro has to reflect the article and be worded NPOV. It is not about fighting "the battle" but having the intro properly reflect the content of the article and provide an overview of the main points in the article, including a mention of its notable controversies . I have suggested revised wording below for the intro that includes info on all the relevant parts of the article. NATTO 20:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bolen and Quackpotwatch mentioned in the introduction 

message: Based on this edit by Fyslee (which I believe to a good one), I think we should take a look at the entire Bolen paragraph. As Fyslee said, this is not an article about Bolen (or Quackpotwatch) and yet all that is in this paragraph is Barrett's and Bolen's description of who Bolen is and what he does. It would be better to give Bolen's criticism of Quackwatch (not Barrett) here. However, do recognize that the idea when "Quackpotwatch" article was deleted from Wikipedia for non-notability was to merge some of it into the "Quackwatch" article. So I feel it would be better to roughly say that according to Quackpotwatch, a critical website written by Tim Bolen, <insert QPW's criticism here>... Sound all right? Levine2112 17:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I just made the update myself. Given the pending lawsuits and controversy, I made it a point to leave out the personal attacks from either side (Bolen or Barrett) and kept it limited to Bolen's characterization of Quackwatch... the topic at hand. Levine2112 19:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bolen 

message: This has gone on long enough. I've posted to the admin noticeboard regarding Ilena's persistent disruptive editing. MastCell 18:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Admin noticeboard post