Talk:Meher Baba/Archive 1

message: Dear Nemonoman, as you deleted previous posts about ethnicity of Meher Baba ....:
Persian is an ethnicity and it refers to an ethnic group. I agree that it may also be equivalent to Iranian as the name of the country was Persia before 1935. However the word's main meaning is related to Persian ethnic group'. Parsis of india are from persian ethnicity, as you probably know. Being from persian ethnic group has nothing to do with the nationality of the person. One may be from Tajikistan or Afghanistan or India or Israel and be Persian at the same time. 
You wrote:
an't see how he's both a "persian person" and an "indian religious figure". Born, lived, died in India. He's Indian. 
Yes he is indian and at the same time belongs to persian ethnic group. -- Mensen 16:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Note to Nemonoman

message: Please note the header of the "Persian People" Category.
Since the category defines itself as describing a person's nationality, I stand by my edits.
Your description of Persian as an Ethnic Group is pretty worrisome to me.
I am very uncomfortable with describing someone's ethnic group in general. I am especially uncomfortable with suggesting that Meher Baba's ethnic group was "Persian". Baba didn't identify himself as Persian or as Parsi. So this is your label. I don't think its necessarily accurate, and I deny that it adds any value. What's next, for Pete's sake? Semetic? Caucasian? 
My edit was not vandalism. It was an edit based on reason and scholarship. What was yours based on?--Nemonoman 17:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply

message: I removed the following book from the "Books about Meher Baba" heading:
*Investigating the Sai Baba Movement: A Clarification of Misrepresented Saints and Opportunism by Kevin R.D. Shepherd. Citizen Initiative (2005) . Contains substantive new biographical evaluation of Meher Baba from his period at Sakori with Upasni Maharaj to his death in 1969. Illustrated with many hitherto unfamiliar photographs of Meher Baba, from the author's own collection.
While it is valuable to know about books that mention Meher Baba and give his life context, "Investigating the Sai Baba Movement" is predominantly about Sathya Sai Baba. Kevin Shepherd has done a lot of valuable research on the subject of Indian masters and the book of his that deals particularly with Meher Baba, "Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal," has already been included. If there is material in the book that you feel adds valuable context to Baba's life and mission, then please include that information in the body of the article. Thanks. Chris 14:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you begin a new section under "Bibliography" called something like "Books that mention Meher Baba" or "Books including Meher Baba" as "Investigating the Sai Baba Movement" is obviously not a "book about Meher Baba" as the category says. I tried to order the book through interlibrary loan, but got a letter from my library that no lending library could supply the book. Amazon.com and Barnes and Noble don't have the book. However, the book is available on Amazon.co.uk.  Chris 20:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Meher Baba is one of the four gurus shown on the front page of the book. Andries 20:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Books about Meher Baba

message: Where did Meher Baba say that the avatar is the "Being of beings"?  I can't find this anywhere.  Please go to section "The Avatar" and include a source or remove the quote. It may very well be that he said this, but couldn't find it in "God Speaks," "Discourses," or on the Web.
:I'm not concerned whether that phrase is in the article or not (IMHO, it's prone to misreading & too Heideggerian-sounding anyway!), but the phrase "Being of all Beings" is used in Eruch's story "Who Is Meher Baba?" (in _That's How It Was_, p. 157), maybe elsewhere too? Hdtnkrwll 02:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Being of beings"

message: This article needs much work to make it sound more like an encyclopedia entry rather than a promotion by followers.  Many of the statements are incomprehensible to the average person looking for information on Meher Baba, such as "Perfect Master."  The English-speaking and largely Christian community who reads this site will not understand any of these mystical terms.  Try to look at it as an encyclopedia entry, not a book written by Baba's ashramites.--Mylitta 07:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition to linking of a term, the term can be shortly described in brackets in this article. Andries 20:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Promotional Brochure?

message: The following are some of the problelms with recent revisions:
#The name Hafez was changed to Hafiz. While this is in keeping with Meher Baba's spelling of Hafiz, note that on Wikipedia Hafiz does not link to the medievel Persian poet, but Hafez is the Wikipedia spelling for the poet. 
#The next change was from "quoting freely from all the holy books" to "quoting freely from those traditions." I'm not sure you can "quote" from a tradition. 
#The change to "the four perfect masters of the age" violates Wikipedia's policy of NPOV. You would have to say, according to... or give a citation.
#The change from "Subsequently, he went without food or drink" to "Thereafter..." isn't as good as the first word. The word "thereafter" generally refers to an ongoing condition. The inclusion of the word "reportedly" was a good idea.
#The new wording, "Later he contacted the 'perfect masters' Sai Baba of Shirdi and Sadguru Upasni Maharaj of Sakori..." gives the appearance that "perfect master" and "sadguru" are two different things, and makes it appear that Sai Baba was not a sadguru. The earlier version, simply calling them both "perfect masters" was much clearer. You could substitute the word "perfect master" with "sadguru" and that would be just as good.
#Adding "sadguru" to the next paragraph is redundant.
#The newly added line, "He also indicated that his silence served a salvific effect, similar in signifigance to Christ's cruxifiction." as far as I know, is simply false. If Baba said this, it ought to have a citation. If not, then it is POV.
#The change to "Baba met with interested individuals who had heard of his spiritual status and his work in India, many of these were celebrities and artists..." is improper sentence structure. The word "whom" that was there before was correct. You could, however, make two sentences. But it isn't clear what this improves. It was a very clear sentence before.
#The reference to Ghandi being allowed by Baba to read his "book" is unclear. While Baba insiders might know what book this refers to, it is not clear enough for an Encyclopedic article.
#Next two changes are excellent. "Various" and "many" are good changes.
#"each drop soul evolves through experience of each form in the seven kingdoms of evolution." This is incorrect. Souls evolve consciousness, but souls do not evolve. 
#"This development is accomplished through the accumulation of innumerable impressions, or sanskaras, which adhere to the drop soul as it experiences creation." Nowhere does Meher Baba say that sanskaras "adhere" to the soul. The soul is infinite and eternal, according to Meher Baba. It is one with Paramatma actually and sanskaras are imagination. The word "adhere" means To stick fast by or as if by suction or glue (Dictionary.com).
#The sentence "Many who attended this darshan have commented on the palpable feeling of Baba's presence" sounds subjective, reads like propaganda (see first comment top of this page), and has no citation.
Point 11 above is well taken.  But, how do you concisely detail evolution/involution in this small section without having to introduce the mental body?  If you do, then you're stuck explaining the subtle and gross bodies as well (i.e. you open a barrel of monkeys).
Likewise with 12 and the same problem in addressing it arises.  I guess my own reading of Meher Baba on this topic lead me to the conclusion that the drop-soul is Paramatma+a mental body (which is nothing but the accumulation of sanskaras).  From that perspective, I think it works as it is.  (i.e. the drop-soul "evolves")  From a strict advaita standpoint this won't fly, but I think avoiding adding the bodies into this section is desirable.  Adhere has been changed to accrete.  Better?
"Which accrete to" has been changed to "acquired by."  Not sure that's an improvement.  My reading sees this process as more passive than "acquired by" suggests.
:In the "Discourses" Meher Baba uses the words "accumulation" and "forging new sanskaras" and "creating further sanskaras." Sanskaras are close to what we in the west would call trace memories. Thus we could use any word that would fit such a psychological concept, e.g. accumulate, acquire, forge, gather, create, form, etc. The important thing is not to see sanskaras as independent entities or metaphysical objects.
===POV===
I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but please try to keep contributions limited to facts or citable facts about other's beliefs or opinions according to Wikipediai's policy on NPOV (neutral point of view). Sam Spade 11:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Problems with Recent Revisions

message: I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but please try to keep contributions limited to facts or citable facts about other's beliefs or opinions according to Wikipediai's policy on NPOV (neutral point of view). Sam Spade 11:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: With all respect to keeping articles encyclopedic, I think that for many readers or seekers, Meher Baba's "cosmology" of Mind, Energy, Matter would be a very interesting and enlightening issue to find in this article. It's like not mentioning the Energy, Mass, Light Speed Constant equation in Albert Einstein's entry. I have to take it that for those working on this article, it may indeed be like opening a barrel of monkeys, but it would still be an important contribution for those trying to understand the nature of the Universe and looking at what various sciences, religions and spiritual paths have to say on it. This would also define some basic concepts, before one comes to the mentioning of gross, subtle and mental sanskaras, which may be mystifying as it stands. Otherwise I find this article quite good and not like a promotion by followers. Yet it may be for such ommissions that it gives to some this feeling. On the one hand I wouldn't like to find in an encyclopedia a note telling me that if I want to learn what this person said I should read his books. On the other, I wouldn't like to run into some jargon that only those who have already studied his books can understand. I think a very good source text for such a progressive outline of terms is in the Discourses, under Meditation, The Divine Truths. I also think that various books of Baba speak to various kinds of mentalities. In an encyclopedia, every kind of mentality should find what it's looking for. If under Cosmology, in this article, you only find mention of the soul's journey to self-awareness, it may be that the structuring of the article has gaps that leave people with the feeling of having run into jargon. I hope my remarks have not upset anyone and that this article can still be improved to reach the quality it deserves (like the Bahai entry for example). If I can help you in any way, please, let me know in my discussion page. I'll be glad to contribute.
Hoverfish 20:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This thing you're talking about is a very hard thing to do. But feel free to try. First of all, Wikipedia frowns on POV and original research so to interpret Baba's teaching in different words becomes difficult to do without becoming controversial. You would need to site sources. If you could do it well though, I think people would be thrilled. Another option is to quote a lot from Discourses or God Speaks, but that has problems too... too wordy, copyright violation, etc. Perhaps a new article could be created on just this subject. There is already a page for God Speaks and that might be a good place to go into depth. Another option is to create a new page for The Discourses or one on his Cosmology itself. 
Sam Spade 23:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matter, Energy, Mind... 

message: Please see the lengthy exhausting discussions above on this subject. My understanding is that the words Parsi and Irani refer to different periods of migration of Zoroastrians from what is now Iran. The earlier migration were called Parsis. People who immigrated later are called Iranis. Both of Baba's parents migrated with the second Irani group, and thus his last name "Irani" from his father. So to call him a Parsi is technically wrong, even if it's right in spirit and well intended. Also, in fact Baba was born in India before 1948 so he was actually a British subject. So it is very hard to call him one thing. Indian isn't quite right, but partially; Irani refers to his parental line and his last name, and British actually refers to his birth certificate. He also had an Irani passport. To reduce all this to the word "Parsi" is at least incomplete, and at worst totally incaccurate, since the meaning of Parsi refers to a different sub-group of immigrants. Therefore, due to the long debates in the past which seemed to end rather peacefully with the compromise of "Iranian-Indian" I've reverted it to that. Also, note that in the categories section it includes him as | Indian religious figures | Persian people | Iranis | Parsis -- so all bases are covered and everyone ought to be hopefully happy. Thanks for understanding.
:Meher Baba was born of an Indian Mother and a father who had left Persia at age 13, and lived the next 2/3s+ of his life in India before his son Meher Baba was born. Since Meher Baba was an Indian native who lived all his life in India, was born of an Indian mother and a naturalized Indian father (from Persia, which only much later became called Iran), I think it is therefore absolutely essential that he be identified as Iranian. Anything less than this does dishonor to the noble Iranian people.--72.192.144.119 05:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meher Baba as Parsi