Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 6

message: I do not think it right to place the Roman Catholic Church in a category called "opposition to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual rights, especially since the word "rights" in the title of the category may be understood as expressing a point of view.  Placing the article in such a category seems therefore less excusable than placing it in a category such as "opposition to polygamy", "opposition to divorce", etc.  Even such categories might be inappropriate, but at least they would be expressed in unquestionably objective terms.  I leave it to someone else - if someone else agrees with me - to revert Xavier the Great's 20:58, 30 April 2006 placing of the article in this category.  Lima 07:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In certain usages "rights" in that context, might express a POV, but it doesn't necessarily. You speak if "silverware rights" (a legal decree granting silverware legal rights) without implicitly supporting the notion. Either you think LGBT people should have rights (equal, unequal, more, whatever), or you don't, but you can still call them "rights" (and most people do no matter what their stance). It seems pretty uncontroversial that the official catholic position is opposed to homosexuals having certain "rights" (there is the view that "homosexuality" isn't a identity but rather a behavior, but I don't think you want to get into that--you'd be venturing into the realm of post-modernism, and if we did that, wikipedia would become a circus of NPOV disputes--more so than it already is) --Brentt 19:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT rights opposition category 

message: According to an earlier consensus on this page, there should be a quite brief reference to topics with criticisms and those criticisms should go on the articles referred to.  The reason for this is that there is a long history of this page being a playground for Catholic bashing.  I would like to propose that the Inquisition be referenced briefly in the history section, noting it's controversial nature with main article reference.  This also brings up the fact that the History section is rather long and does not have sufficient sub sections.  I would propose that it be organized into subsections each with a main article reference and that the Inquisition be one of those sections.  
There are lots of issues to duke it out over, but the various controversies need not be played out on this page.  Vaquero100 12:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will see what I can do - this sounds good.  I don't know if I can fit the sex scandal things in the history section or not, I'll see. 08:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Inquisition and History Section proposal

message: Having a quote in the intro, as stated above, is awkward and not exactly inline with style guides. I have also voiced concern over the last sentence (and there is the "His Holiness" issue). I have come up with a proposed change to that paragraph, and would enjoy hearing opinions, and suggested changes.
:The Church describes each Pope as the successor of Saint Peter, and uses the honorific title of His Holiness for this position. In Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, the Church states that it is the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" mentioned in the Nicene Creed, and teaches that this church was founded by Jesus for the salvation of all people.
--Andrew c 14:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That looks a lot better.  I would leave in that St. Peter's sucessor is the Bishop of Rome / head of the Church / Vicar of Christ or something similar to explain his role.Lostcaesar 17:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the suggestions. Can you think of a way to fit that in (feel free to edit the proposal text). Keep in mind that the previous sentence states a bit of that information "The Church is led by the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, currently, Pope Benedict XVI."--Andrew c 18:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, I wasn’t sure if you were going to keep that sentence also or not.  I would propose “The Church describes each Pope as the successor of Saint Peter and therefore Vicar of Christ, and uses…” – the link ought to explain this useage well enough, I think.Lostcaesar 08:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I apologize for starting another topic (the first one seemed to turn into the "His Holiness" issue, and this is a new proposal, so I gave it a new heading). I came to talk to mention the "His Holiness" issue. After reading through guidelines, I decided this wasn't a content issue, but a policy issue and was bold in removing "His Holiness". The reason I questioned the revert is because you went to talk, and I responded, yet you reverted before addressing my response (plus there was no edit summary). As for.. Please note Andrew c, that the Catholic Church does not capitalize the marks of the Church in its modern conciliar documents or in the creed. Ok, Vaquero100, please note that Wikipedia is NOT the Catholic Church. Wikipedia's article DOES capitalize "the marks": One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. That said, I'd be interested in reading the past discussion, if you have a link. As for the title of Lumen Gentium, the link didn't have the "in the Modern World" part. I apologize that the Vatican's website is in err about the title. And I also apologize that your suggested title only gets 4 google hits. As for "His Holiness", I also agree that the title, and explination of His Holiness belongs in the pope article. I was trying to compromise by including the phrase in a NPOV manner. But we can simply remove it, that works as well. As for Falwell, there were only 3 articles that included the honorific title, and none of them are topical to Falwell, and none of them are featured articles. This does not prove that this usage is acceptable. Please refer to the style guide. As for going back 2 years, if we are to believe the page history, Catholic Church stayed a redirect to Catholicism for 2 years.--Andrew c 20:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  proposed change to last paragraph of the opening 

message: Here are two different definitions of the Church from other articles on wikipedia (slightly modified). Should we use either one of these, or combine them, or write something from scratch?
:The Roman Catholic Church is the largest Christian denomination comprised of 23 autonomous churches in communion with the bishop of Rome.
:The Roman Catholic Church is a single Christian body comprising 23 particular Churches of the Western and Eastern Rite.
Any more ideas?--Andrew c 14:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Particular Churches is ok then - oh, one more think, we can't call the Church a denomination.Lostcaesar 18:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I find the whole "particular church" thing very confusing, likewise the auto churches - for what its worth, it might be a little too sticky for an intro; Lostcaesar 17:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I was just going by what 2 other articles define the Church as. I think it's important to mention the confusing, sticky stuff in the intro, however, it may not be first sentence material. I don't like 2nd Piston Honda's suggestion at all. It is more about history, than the contemporary church. You could exchange the word "Christian" or "Orthodox" for Catholic, and the paragraph would mean the exact same thing, therefore it does not diffrentient the Church from other denominations. Furthermore, the last sentence is almost identical to the last sentence of the last paragraph of the intro. Hmm... any more ideas? Should we look at how other reference works define the Church to get some ideas?--Andrew c 17:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just gave you a very clear definition of the Catholic Church, but i know that's not what's needed here. I think it's fine how it is. 2nd Piston Honda 17:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand that there are a lot of editors here who are opposed to change, with perhaps the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" mentality. I have been faced with opposition and reverts when attempting to question and change what I perceive to be issues in this article. That said, I feel that the introduction sentence is very important. This isn't something that can be brushed aside, because the format of encyclopedia articles is outlines according to a set of guidelines. Everyone, please read Wikipedia:Lead section and then see if you can justifiably tell me this article is up to standards (espcially Wikipedia:Lead section#Provide an accessible overview).--Andrew c 18:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Andrew, personaly I am glad that it is being worked on.  One thing, though, we cannot call the Church a "denomination" Lostcaesar 18:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, also, the Church refers to herself as "she", not "it", for what its worthLostcaesar 18:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Andrew, i'm not opposed to change, i'm opposed to changing it to either of the options you have above. Can you explain what exactly you have a problem with in the intro as it is? I read above and all you say is that you should have a little paragraph explaining what the Pope is in the middle of the opening section of Roman Catholic Church (which is ridiculous to me). But please be more precise with your complaints and i can be more precise in responding to them. 2nd Piston Honda 18:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  new first sentence 

message: :Alright, here is my try.  This uses no pronouns, so we dont have to worry about the "it" vs "she" issue, likewise this doesn't use the word "denomination", which desont make sense (what is "The Church" a denomination of?).  Here we go:
The Roman Catholic Church, also called the Catholic Church, is the largest  Christian  church in the world,[] composed of twenty three particular churches in communion with the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, including those of the Western and Eastern Rite.  The Church describes each Pope as the successor of Saint Peter, using the honorific title of His Holiness.  Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, states that the Church is the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" of in the Nicene Creed, founded by Jesus for the salvation of all humanity.
The Church's worldwide membership at the end of year 2004 was 1,098,366,000,[Statistical Yearbook of the Church 2004] a year in which the United Nations put the total world population at 6,388,500,000.  As such it is the world's largest single organised body of religion. 
: Comments? Lostcaesar 18:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So you want the pope sentence out?  It is ok other than that?  The "particular churches" thing is a specific theological nuanced way to express the inclusion of various "rite" in the Church, and also, frankly, a bone to the Orthodox so that their sensibilities might be appeased.  Whatever the case it goes with the "communion" part (its incorporated in that kind of theological language).Lostcaesar 19:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Try 

message: *From Eastern Orthodox Church: The Eastern Orthodox Church is a Christian body that encompasses national jurisdictions such as the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and other Churches (see Eastern Orthodox Church organization). It claims its origins in the original undivided Christian community founded by Jesus for salvation, with its traditions first established by the Twelve Apostles at the time of Pentecost and maintained through unbroken Apostolic Succession.
*From Anglican Communion: The Anglican Communion is a world-wide affiliation of Anglican Churches. There is no single "Anglican Church" with universal juridical authority, since each national or regional church has full autonomy. As the name suggests, the Anglican Communion is an association of these churches in full communion with the Church of England (which may be regarded as the "mother church" of the worldwide communion), and specifically with its primate, the Archbishop of Canterbury. With over seventy million members, the Anglican Communion is the third largest communion in the world, after the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
These two start with a reference to the jurisdictions and affiliations of the church body. Then we have the two articles that define the RCC as noted above. But if we don't want to mention the 23 particular churches and the 2 rites in the first sentence, maybe we could do something simpler. Also, I think we could use the 2nd sentence from Eastern Orthodoxy verbatim. Maybe something like:
:The Roman Catholic Church, also called The Catholic Church, refers to 23 particular churches in communion with Rome, led by the Pope. It claims its origins in the original undivided Christian community founded by Jesus for salvation, with its traditions first established by the Twelve Apostles at the time of Pentecost and maintained through unbroken Apostolic Succession.
:The Church is not only the largest Christian Church, but also the largest organized body of any world religion. According to the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, the Church's worldwide recorded membership at the end of year 2004 was 1,098,366,000, a year in which the United Nations put the total world population at 6,388,500,000.[2] The current Pope, or Bishop of Rome, is Pope Benedict XVI.
--Andrew c 21:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We definitely shouldn't include "23 particular churches" since the structuring of the Anglican Communion and the EAC are totally different to that of the Catholic Church, which is not "divided into" anything and is not a "federation" of churches.  Incidentally, I wrote the last version of the EOC heading you quote, and I believe the previous opening para complemented it better. "It" versus "she" is a non-debate: we are fully free to refer to the Church as "it" and anything else is non-encyclopedic. Slac speak up! 22:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry if I come off as abrupt or nitpicky, but there is another point to stress: the Church does not define itself solely with reference to Lumen Gentium.  Mentioning a specific document in the intro implies that the Church's definition of itself was substantially different prior to the release of Lumen Gentium, a view it strenously rejects, since it says it has always called itself the Catholic Church.  And to  be technical, LG doesn't make reference the Nicene Creed.  LG also uses the notorious subsistit in rather than est "is" - another theological term we would have to explain.  The best way to do it is by reference to the whole of Church teaching, not one document - i.e. paraphrase and use a footnote. Slac speak up! 23:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the part of 23 particular churches is ok, on reflection.  Also, I think the intro should mention One Holy Catholic and Apostolic – its in the current catechism, the compendium, the old Roman Catechism of Trent, and the Creed – it seems a central and well established form. Lostcaesar 09:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other articles

message: There is a tremendous disparity between the Salvation section of the Roman Catholic Church article and the Roman Catholic section of the Salvation article that needs to be addressed.--Antelucan 13:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lima has restored the article from edits made by Danras, alleviating the problem for now.  Still, the article could benefit from more attention.--Antelucan 20:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Salvation]]