Talk:Seneca people

message: Heh.. sounds a bit biased?  I agree that some of the article's text is Euro-centric and needs work, but I'm not sure whether the Seneca were the victims and the Europeans/Americans the oppressors.  I'd agree that by the 19th century it ended up that way, but my understanding is that for a century or two before that, the Seneca and the Iroquois in general were as powerful or more than the European colonists -- that while the Europeans did try to take advantage of the Seneca and Iroquois as best they could, the Seneca and Iroquois did much the same -- and managed to become the most powerful Indian nation in America for a long time, with the ability to dictate terms to both Europeans and other Indians.
I hope I don't offend in saying these things.  I have tremendous respect for Native Americans, Iroquois and Seneca in particular.  I come from Buffalo, New York, and was fairly ashamed to learn how the land I grew up in was taken from the Seneca.  I had to learn it myself, it was not something taught in school.  I think American history has been and continues to be too biased toward Europeans, with the Indians put into the role of savages, perhaps noble savages, but in any case of little import.  It maddens me to read about Euro-American pioneers "blazing trail into the wilderness" or how before the Euro-Americans came, America was in a pristine and natural ecological state, as if there were no people here at all.
Yet I cannot subscribe to the notion that the Europeans were always the Bad People and the Indians always the victims.  By the 19th century it may have ended up much like that, but for the 2 centuries before that, it was often the Indians who had the upper hand, as far as I can tell -- and they yielded their power in many ways, good and bad.
Just some thoughts.  I say them because it seems that this page is particularly dense with the suggestion of Indians as innocent victims and Euro-Americans as evil. Pfly 08:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "Contact with Colonial Minded Oppressors"

message: There is no 1826 Treaty at Buffalo Creek only the 1838 and 1842 treaties with the Seneca were at Buffalo Creek.
The Senecas have litigated their claims that the 1842 Treaty of Buffalo Creek or the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua give them an exemption from collecting taxes from non-members and to date they have lost in court on those claims.  Acting as if these issues were never raised and decided is certainly POV.
I corrected the treaty reference added a cite to the Seneca's actual position on this issue and reverted the history of the fight over taxation.  --Dtwarren 00:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Seneca Economy 

message: Wikipedia users. Please note that the constant POV insertions on this page that do not belong. This page is about the Seneca Nation (historical up to contemporary) and is not about one person or small group of 30 or less people that hate Indians and want to get their message out about how bad Indian Nations and people are.  The information provided by dtwarren above comes from the viewpoint of anti-Indian.  If you do not know what it is to be anti-Indian, then please look as a reference to the page on anti-Semitism.  
Therefore, the information about the Seneca Nation that revolves around the Seneca Nation will be included on this page (btw -- the Seneca Nation has been around for thousands of years and this information needs to be put up instead of constantly re-editing some anti-Indian bias).  
Let me restate what I have been stating to other wikipedia editors:  If you wish to allow and assist an anti-Indian leader to continue to add biased, negative, and non subject matter information on this page, then please do so.  Do so, if you would also assist a Neo-Nazi leader in writing about the jews on the WWII Holocaust page, or the KKK leaders writing on the catholic, jewish, or NAACP pages.  
If you are internet savvy, it will not take you long to find out that the organization run by dtwarren is an anti-Indian hate group.  So, now that you know, will you continue to assist in the propagation of anti-Indian hate?  Or will you assist in making this page something that rises above it?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scuggy (talk • contribs) 20:59, November 22, 2006 (UTC)
:Thanks for the info, Scuggy.  I'll look into it. --Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫♦♫ 21:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Scuggy, we see your point, but you don't make your case very well by deleting large sections of referenced material, and replacing it with your unreferenced material. When you do that it will simply be reverted. Make your case point by point, in smaller bites, with references, and you will be able to get a hearing better. Significant changes are best discussed on the talk page first. We want the article to be as accurate as possible. Pollinator 15:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anti-Indian Hate Group Leaders editing Seneca Page

message: I have noticed that an article has been started for the Seneca Nation of Indians which raises the question what should be the direction of this page.  If this page is to contain information on the original Seneca Nation (Tribe) then the material that is dated after approximately 1848 (the date the Seneca Nation adopted its constitution and form of governance) should be moved to Seneca Nation of Indians or Tonawanda Band of Seneca Indians.  How should we proceed, go forward as set forth above or redirect Seneca Nation of Indians to this article?--Dtwarren 16:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Seneca Nation of Indians]] 

message: This page needs a mention of Kinzua Dam.  165.189.91.148 21:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Kinzua Dam]] 

message: The Seneca Nation does not have any connection to Oklahoma.  See 
: Well not exactly. The court merely validated the view that the Mingoean descendants were not under control of the Six Nations at the time the treaty in question was negotiated therefore they could not participate in the lawsuit. Wouldn't it be be more accurate to say that the Seneca Nation not longer has any current connection to Oklahoma? Just a thought.
: Anyhow, I did run into reference(s) to Tyoga Native Americans in the West during a recent Google search. These references include: hiking in Michigan, an historical pathway in Michigan, and a campground in Michigan. I don't have time to do any more research on the matter but perhaps someone else might. JimScott 16:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oklahoma Project 

message: There were also many links to contemperanious reports from the day, such as this  Journals of the Military Expedition of Major General John Sullivan against the Six Nations of Indians in 1779 (tho to be honest some of the entries brought me to tears); and books on that period, such as this book about George Washington. And last, but not least, there is a Tyoga Atlatl group. JimScott 16:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While these sound interesting for further reading, the article should be based on secondary, valid, preferably scholarly sources, not use of original, primary materials.  Similarly, some commentary on the land claims and thruway issues would be valuable sources, rather than the copy of the court decisions.  This is not supposed to represent Original Research (OR) in primary sources.--Parkwells (talk) 18:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should we include these references also ? 

message: Maybe all the disputed stuff has been removed because I can't find anything now that is of dispute.  Can we either put back the disputed stuff, rewritten so as to take care of the problem, or remove the  Disputed tag?  Or is there still something disputed here?  I don't like tags on articles that don't belong there and with the current article, it doesn't belong.  Fanra 00:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The neutrality of this article is disputed?

message: I removed this sentence,"If the federal government believed there was any merit to these claims they would have intervened on the Senecas behalf on their claim to the thruway like they did in relation to their claim to Grand Island.".  Without some source to back it up, it is biased.  If someone can cite an official of the federal government saying this, it can go back, otherwise it is speculation.  Fanra 01:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Land Claims

message: To me, it appeared that this article had a mess of several different types of citations that make it harder to read and look messy.  I've changed all of the citations to one type and have them listed in the References sections.  Fanra 14:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations

message: For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all  infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "related groups" info removed from infobox 

message: Can this article be renamed Seneca people, since it is about the Seneca people as a whole? There are articles for each of the individual tribes/governmental organizations of Seneca: Seneca Nation of New York, Seneca-Cayuga Tribe of Oklahoma, Tonawanda Band of Seneca Indians of New York, and Six Nations of the Grand River First Nation. -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Due to lack of response in a week's time, I'm going to move this page. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:14, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Name change

message: The article currently claims that the resemblance to the Roman statesman's name "is entirely coincidental" but offers no citation.  Clearly, there's no direct link, but I find it hard to believe that the English (and/or French?) spelling wasn't at least influenced by knowledge of classical authors.  It could have been Anglicized in a form more like "Cynical" just as easily, and there apparently are several older spellings that are much less similar to the Roman name:
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/seneca/senecahist.htm
Indeed, Governor Andros, two years after Greenhalgh's visit to the several tribes of the Iroquois in 1677, still wrote, "Ye Oneidas deemed ye first nation of sineques." The Journal of Van Curler, mentioned above, records the interesting fact that during his visit to the tribes he celebrated the New Year of 1635 at a place called Enneyuttehage or Sinnekens. The first of these names was the Iroquois, and the second, the Mohegan, name for the place, or, preferably, the Mohegan translation of the Iroquois name.
[...]
Thus, the Iroquois Oněñiute'ā'gǎ', the Mohegan Sinnekens, and the Delaware W'tassone are synonymous and are homologous in derivation. But the Dutch, followed by other Europeans, used the Mohegan term to designate a group of four tribes, to only one of which, the Oneida, was it strictly applicable. The name Sinnekens, or Sennecaas (Visscher's map, ca. 1660), became the tribal name of the Seneca by a process of elimination which excluded from the group and from the connotation of the general name the nearer tribes as each with its own proper native name became known to the Europeans. Obviously, the last remaining tribe of the group would finally acquire as its own the general name of the group. The Delaware name for the Seneca was Meχaχtǐn'nǐ (the Maechachtinni of Heckewelder), which signifies 'great mountain'; this is, of course, a Delaware rendering of the Iroquois name for the Seneca, Djiionoñdowāněñ‘'ākǎ’, or Djiionoñdowāněñ‘'ākǎ̉', 'People of the Great Mountain.'
Yes, it coincides, but it's not "entirely" coincidental -- 
http://www.behindthename.com/name/seneca
From a Roman cognomen which meant "old" from Latin senectus. This was the name of both a Roman orator (born in Spain) and also of his son, a philosopher and statesman. This name also coincides with that of the Seneca, a Native American tribe that lived near the Great Lakes, whose name meant "place of stones".
Similarly: https://www.familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Union_County,_New_Mexico,_Place_Names_S-Z
SENECA - The anglicized form of the spanish word "cienega" or swamp. This was once a heavily populated farming community on NM 18, 14 miles northeast of Clayton. After the dust bowl of the 1930's, much of the land was retired or leased by the US Forest Service to ranchers. Post Office 1908 to the present day.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zipperbear (talk • contribs) 20:00, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name not related to the Roman statesman 

message: Do the 'real' Seneca people live in the U.S. or Canada? We should make a point of originality to state the difference between an adopted/assimilated person of Seneca heritage and that of an original descendant. 216.223.90.44 (talk) 15:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: You are a real clown. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:B104:FAA9:9858:D2C9 (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Descendants

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title: Assessment comment

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Should we create an article for the Seneca prophet Ganiodaiio? 98.123.38.211 (talk) 20:10, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Handsome Lake Peter Flass (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ganiodaiio]]