Talk:Saudi Arabia/Archive 1

message: The punishment meted out by the Saudi Arabian court are unusual and certainly deserve to be noted. Rmhermen 15:47, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)
I do agree completely. But let's keep it accurate and NPOV. Public beheadings on a daily basis is utter nonsense. Saudi Arabia executes fewer people per year than the State of Texas and the government is trying (with great success) to stamp-out amputations - but it is a mistake to think the government has complete control of this, anymore than the Kennedys could stop all racial segregation instantly. I did try to edit-in a fair and NPOV paragraph about this, but as you see all my edits just get reverted. I'm happy to cooperate on this if Thomas will cooperate with other users. Right now it's pointless. Anjouli 16:18, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Which Human Rights dogma do you subscribe to? There is no such thing as universal rights, because all such rights are defined by the highly subjective minds of humans. 203.208.80.13 03:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal system and punishments 

message: Hello Thomas. Well now we are talking together, which is a start. I am sure we are both good people who want the same thing. You will probably be amazed to hear that I am a paid-up member of Amnesty International, which perhaps illustrates the degree of misunderstanding between us. And I lost a lot of my family in Hitler's concentration camps - so I understand what you mean about appeasement.
A few points:
*Please sign all your posts with ~~~~. This inserts your signature and the date - otherwise we need to look in the page history to see who wrote what.
*Edit wars solve nothing. Note I have not edited the current page, although I disagree with much of it. I want to come to agreement with you first, since this is obviously something you feel deeply about.
*No personal attacks or vandalism of my home page please, whoever it was. NB I'm not saying I think it was you, but it was apparently related to this discussion.
General matters:
*Whilst totalitarian regimes should be criticised for their abuses, it is important that this criticism be accurate and factually-based. It should not be unverified personal opinion or rumour. Above all it should be NPOV. It is also important that reforms and progress be given due credit. If not, and a country is painted blacker than black whatever they do, then they will not be sensitive to world opinion and will feel any efforts at reform are pointless. You will find this opinion is shared by almost all human rights organisations.
*There ARE still human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. 
*There has been a great deal of progress in recent years. Most criticisms leveled against Saudi Arabia are historic and do not reflect the current situation.
*Saudi Arabia is about to join the WTO and is restructuring much of the judicial and legal system to comply with WTO requirements.
*This month a completely independent Saudi human rights organisation was formed, with full government support.
*Most abuses are not condoned by the government, although they must bear responsibility for lack of oversight of prisons etc.
Wikipedia country pages:
*Wikipedia country pages should match the format of other country pages. It is not appropriate to include large quotations or to have hot links to Google searches - whatever your politics. This kind of thing should be handled via short links to sub-pages, e.g. Human rights, Judicial system etc. This is the proper way to do things, whatever your opinion.
*Anything on WP should be verifiable from reputable sources. It should not be personal opinion or conjecture. If not, it should be removed.
*Anything on WP should be NPOV (Neutral Point of View). "Spiders eat flies" is acceptable. "Spiders are horrible creatures because they eat flies." is not.
The Saudi Arabia page:
*Much to talk about, but let's start with something simple. The present page says Saudi Arabia carries out crucifictions. I propose to remove that as I think it is factually inaccurate. Would you object? If so, can you provide a reference to substantiate this? I'll agree to leave it in if it is a sensible reference.
And that's how we do things on Wikipedia. Your move. Anjouli 15:38, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Friendly Dialogue 

message: Amazing... no prominent mention of Saudi Arabia's role as the country which is home to Mecca; no major header section on religion at all for a country completely dominated by a religion, and the center of the world for that religion. Wahhabism is mentioned in the political section, and then only buried in the middle of the text. A country where everything is influenced by religion, and the article barely mentions religion ChessPlayer 05:31, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I refer you to the "edit this page" link at the foot of the page. - Montréalais 02:21, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religion 

message: If anyone thinks the title of the article Discrimination against non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia is not neutral .. please go there and vote OneGuy 01:05, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Re: Anonymous editor's recent edits: While I agree with the statement that Islam usually treats other religions with respect, is this true of (esp. of Judaism) in Saudi Arabia?  My research indicates that it would be unwise to admit being Jewish in S.A. and that you should not have any Israeli visa stamps on your passport when entering S.A. The article referenced above (Status of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia) reinforces my current understanding.  Thoughts? -- Dave C.talk | Esperanza 20:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That is true, but it says that "Muslims generally regard" which is different. SA does not represent all of Islam ofcourse. But I understand that there are political issues between countries (i.e SA and Israel). But Islam itself tells Muslims to respect other religions. Overall, I think more about Saudi Arabia's culture needs to be added rather than just info about Islam. The section labelled culture is probably not the best place for Islam's relationship with other religions. Hope that helps, a.n.o.n.y.m   t 20:47, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia 

message: If one goes to the main page for China, one does not find 'Human Rights' as the third heading. China has a horrible human rights record. Witness Tienammen Square. Even today, dissident voices are stilled. But China is a most-favoured nation with the U.S. It's a trading partner with billions of consumers, a huge army and arsenal. Saudi Arabia's human rights record may be bad but it doesn't deserve to have its record discussed as a primary (or tertiary, I guess) item. It is a great culture with many positive aspects which may be discussed ahead of any discussion of its rights record. This is like finding a discussion of Guantanamo or Abu Graib on the title page of an entry for the United States. --LesAldridge 21:54, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why is SA singled out for its abuse of Human Rights? 

message: I see that most of the discussion topics are small priorities, if people don't like the human rights there or discrimination, they should think of reform, you see there is a case in which three men called for changing the political systen to a constitutional monarchy, but since this IS S.A., instead of humoring them, they were arrested instead, them and others for signing a statement asking for it, but rest were set free except for them.
I am a Shi'tte Saudi, and being so I know what matter's most to the country, most people here are thinking of political reform and you guys are debating over oil legitimacy and beheading? What the hell is this? People you need to think of the important stuff here.
Here are links about that case here
http://www.cdhr.info/pressroom_news.asp
This is another page but I couldn't find the original page so I disclaim it.
"U.S. quietly following trial of democratic activists in Riyad
 
Want to see the real test in future U.S.-Saudi relations? Try monitoring the trial this week of three Saudi democracy leaders in Riyad on charges that they published literature that called for political reforms in the kingdom.
 
Ali Al Domaini, Matrook Al Faleh and Abdallah Al Hamed are not oil barons or Al Qaida guns. Al Domaini is a poet and Al Faleh and Al Hamed are professors — all of whom were arrested March 16 with eight other democracy activists. The eight others were released but barred from travel or public comments.
 
The Saudi indictment charges the three with the kind of activities encouraged daily in the United States. The charges include collecting signatures on a petition calling for reform and holding meetings to coordinate pro-reform efforts. None of the charges involved violence.
 
But here's how the indictment translates calls for reform. The three Saudis were charged with "damaging the reputation of the Saudi government," "justifying violence and terrorism," "doubting the independence of the Saudi justice system," and "pressuring the government and influencing public opinion to pressure government leadership." In Saudi Arabia, where there are no elections and the king is the keeper of Islam, these are all crimes.
 
The Saudi royal family has not been immune to U.S. pressure. In an unprecedented move, the trial, which began on Aug. 8, was open to the public and attended by the relatives and supporters of the defendants.
 
The United States has been careful in dealing with the Saudi trial. No statements have been released by the administration and State Department and U.S. Embassy officials have not attended the trial."
--Nay1989 21:50, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Think about the important stuff! 

message: I find it hard to believe that the article on Saudia Arabia does not contain "Terror" or "Terrorism".  Saudia Arabian leaders have funded and praised terrorist acts on many occasions.  I am also suprised that the article does not contain any mention of Saudia Arabia's charity work in funding Islamic boarding schools around the world whose faculty are indoctrinating students that terrorism is an approved method to fight the enemies of Islam (such as western countries).  
Plz consider the fallowing passage:
:"The women chosen by the BBC on its web page  are special people... the common Saudi women are living a life beyond our imagination... Under the global pressure, if the Saudi regime is opening the doors of freedom of thought, speech and expression in that conservative society, it will not only benefit the common people but will nip the roots of terrorism around the world as well. We the common Muslims in Pakistan are directly affected by the traditional conservative policies of the Saudi Arabian and Iranian regimes... Both Saudi Arabia and Iran have been financially supporting their agents in Pakistan and thus sectarianism and terrorism has been nourished in our land. These terrorists never let us common Pakistani women to walk around freely and try to through acid on our faces or stop marathon races by force and they want to show us the model of Saudi Arabia and Iran... (Sick). If Saudi Arabia and Iran are motivated by the world community to be a part of the world community then the world can get rid of terrorism and extremism. 
:The Saudi man has all the privilege...they can have 4 wives at a time... many trips around the world, especially 'moral holidays' in the West but their women live a life less than human beings...it should change now! 
:Just 4000 princes (from the King to the police officer) of a family are ruling the poor Saudi people with tyranny and it is not only affecting them but every one in the region, especially in the Muslim world…
:These things should be included in the main article of Wikipedia in a balanced way!"
: What are you talking about? Their women live a life less than human beings." Did you ask the saudi women how they live? I'm Saudi woman, and I have a life better than most American or European women. In SA parents don't kick their doughters out of the house when they turn 18. Don't talk about Saudi Women when you apparently know nothing about them.  
FactFinder
::LOL, so you're from pakistan? and you know all these things about Saudi Arabia and Iran just by the attempt of a "pakistani terrorist" to "throw acid" at your face? so your government is a "terrorist" government and Benazir Bhutto never been a "prime minister" (or maybe she is not a woman =D)?
::As for the "four wives" thing .... what I know is that the quran allows polygamy, not the SAUDI GOVERNMENT ... and you said that you're a muslim =D.
::Quote: "The most impressive thing about this piece is that you have Saudi women talking about what it is like being a Saudi women. It is sad that this notion is revolutionary in the world today. If we want to know about someone, some place or some people we should ask them instead of formulating our thoughts based on secondhand information. Why is it that most of the experts on Islam in the media are themselves not Muslims?" -- Joe Bruin, LA, USA, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4398295.stm#abla --212.138.47.16 11:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source of terrorism in the world 

message: NPOV would consist of well-referenced information that trafficking in persons is not permitted in Saudi Arabia, that those who engage in trafficking are prosecuted, that victims of trafficking are protected, and that concrete and effective steps are being taken to prevent trafficking. Fred Bauder 15:40, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC) See Human trafficking in Saudi Arabia Fred Bauder 15:44, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
:Asking Yuber to back up his edits is a lost cause, Fred.Enviroknot 02:30, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Trafficking in Persons Report 2005" 

message: I've altered the infobox to reflect the King's death.   AFAIK Abdullah doesn't automatically ascend the throne (as in the UK).  He must be proclaimed by the other Saudi princes.   Alphaboi867 07:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  the King is dead 

message: There isn't any mention of sheik UBL, Al-Kaida or the entirely saudi 9/11 fedajeen squadron anywhere in this article. It is a matter of fact that Osama bin Laden is the most infamous saudi person ever, past, present and future. This article is a big white-wash. Wikipedia editors use cars and know that cars run on oil, so they do not dare to write the terrible truth about the inhumane, pre-historic nature of saudi arabia and its ruling class. The fear of losing oil is keeping the world mute, which is a great shame. Zionism and Saudi Arabia, both equally evil, are the two columns of ruthless western rule over the middle east. The palestinians are 10000x more enlightened than the saudis! 195.70.32.136 11:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good comment! Those kind of info have their own articles. We don't talk about Timothy McVeigh or Michael Jordan in the main US article as we don't talk about Sulaiman S. Olayan or the squadron you're talking about in this article. Cheers -- Szvest 12:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, its all an evil conspiracy perpetrated by us Illuminati Reptile Alien Jewish CIA Wikipedia editors to use more oil. --Brentt 20:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 19 kamikazee: why do you forget? 

message: "Besides Liechtenstein, Saudi Arabia remains the only country in the world named after its ruling family."
This is not quite accurate. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is also named after its ruling family.  --Cam 02:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Named after ruling family 

message: I like to knew (since i think i heard that Saudi Arabia have stirct laws about what job you can do based on your gender; And i eventually heard that the two jobs i had ask were orignially jobs that women had, but now men in other countries are said to have these same job as women in these countries.) So i had ask this question 'cause what i had just said had influrence me to ask this question.So answer in time please.Thanks.
Yes, men can and are regularly receptionists and nurses. In fact, there are more men receptionists then women. However, the rate of men to women nurses in Saudi Arabia is in favour of women. Burning phoneix 21:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can Men be [[receptionist]]s and/or [[nurse]]s in Saudi Arabia? 

message: *"Saudi Arabia": 99,700,000 Google hits
*"KSA" Saudi: 318,000 hits.
That clearly makes it less common, even though it's the IOC code. - Eagleamn 22:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While that's not exactly the best way to find out, I a do agree, KSA is far less common, escpially since KSA can't be translated back into Arabic. Burning phoneix 10:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

text: It might be less common on google, but I just came back from KSA and have seen that KSA is widly used within the country, in my opinion even more than Saudi Arabia.93.132.202.15 (talk) 20:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saudi Arabia vs. KSA 

message: I just read Lawrence Wright's excellent book, "The Looming Tower," and he said the Saudi Arabia completed an extensive census in the 1960s-70s and realized the population might be closer to seven million, but was reluctant to publish this figure.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.30.43 (talk) 01:45, August 28, 2007 (UTC) 
I understand that there is a sizeable Shia minority in Saudi but I cannot find any reference to the its size! CIA simply says 100% Muslims but does not give a break down of each sects (as it does on other countries), has anyone got any idea? Kiumars 12:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Demographics 

message: The pronunciation // is obviously Anglicized, but I'm not sure what the Arabic pronunciation is. Is it just  as mentioned, or is the short form "Saudi Arabia" also used natively? Ardric47 21:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "Saudi Arabia" is almost never used in Arabic, but I've seen few Arabic publications with "العربية السعودية"  , probably due to mistranslation. The most common short form is "السعودية"  as-Sa'udiyah - Eagletalk 21:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: Hi there, some new projects have been started to improve Saudi related topics, help is most welcomed. So if you please check out our Wikiproject Saudi Arabia which is maintaning the portal, thank you--muhaidib-- (Talk | #info |  ) 17:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:KSA|Wikiproject]] & [[P:SA|Portal]] 

message: Officially in Saudi Arabia it is Makkah & Madina & NOT 'Mecca' or 'Medina'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.51.0.131 (talk • contribs) 
I believe that is true, but in most English sources you will find the spelling "Mecca" and "Medina." - Eagle(talk) 20:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Eagle, it's their language and they can spell it how ever they want, we [Arabic people] say the word "America" like "Am'ree'kah", we say "Paris" like "Pa'rees", "Montreal" like "Mont'ter'yal", "England" like "In'gelt'ra", "Switzerland" like "Swees'ra" and so on, so I guess as long as they know what they are talking about, they can call it whatever they want --mo-- (Talk | #info |  ) 22:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Makkah & Madina 

message: Comparison of various reputable sources for population estimates:
*UN Population Division: 24,573,100 (2005) / 25,192,720 (2006)
*Population Reference Bureau: 24,573,000 (2005)
*Saudi Arabia Census of 2004 (provisional results): 22,673,438
*World Gazetteer: 23,595,634 (2005-2006)
*CIA Factbook: 27,019,731
The CIA figure seems to overestimate the population compared to other sources. I think we should use the UN figures unless the CIA figure is corroborated by another official source. Polaron | Talk 21:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm,, well Saudi Arabia has a low avrage age, not because there are no old people but because there are many, many, many young people. So one year can make a one-two million and it's not getting lower (yet), so estimating can be really hard. I would say follow which ever one says (2006) but i know its not 23.9 mil, I would say 25-27 mil --mo-- (Talk | #info |  ) 04:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think, in population estimates, and other statistics it is smarter to trust the UN than the CIA, for obvious reasons. The CIA, as I have said many times, continues to be a highly unreliable source for any of this kind of information, for the fact that the CIA's published knowledge is clearly United States POV. I would trust the United Nations more than the CIA, even if the UN info might be out to date.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.156.247.203 (talk) 16:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population estimates 

message: The articles makes the following statement: "no cheese of the House of Saud reject the family's legitimacy and decline to speak of the country as 'Saudi Arabia'." So, I was curious to know what they would call it? What are the alternative names for Saudi Arabia? I can understand if it's not really relevant or widely used that it shouldn't go into the article's text. But I'm very curious and think that this kind of trivia (if it is indeed "trivia") is always interesting to find at Wikipedia. Thanks!--Sir Edgar 05:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those who oppose the rule of House of Saud often identify themselves by their region or province, e.g. someone from Jeddah, Makkah or Madinah prefer to be known as a Hijazi rather than a Saudi. It's probably easy to assume the answer is simply "Arabia" (without the "Saudi") but the term is too generic, something that the mostly tribal-by-nature Saudis would not associate themselves with. South of the border, I personally knew someone from South Yemen who still does not think favourably of the reunification; he does not identify himself as Yemeni but a citizen of Hadhramaut.
The translation of the English name and Arabic name are not the same (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (Arabic: المملكة العربية السعودية‎)). Is Saudi a kingdom or not? Kiumars 12:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alternative name for the country? 

message: I came to the Saudi Arabia page to look for information on sports in Saudi Arabia, but was disappointed to find no mention of it. If some expert could shed light on the subject (what sports are popular, satdiums and clubs, regulation, women's sports), it would be greatly appreciated.
Arnob 04:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hmm,,, the information you are looking for would be found at :Category:Sport in Saudi Arabia, I guess we could add a section under culture --mo-- (Talk | #info |  ) 04:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sports in Saudi Arabia 

message: How is the nightlife in Saudi Arabia. Do they party all night long?--Comanche cph 18:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Saudis usually stay up long periods of time during vacations, even though there is very little entertainment, no movies or arcades or nothing! strange huh? I'm writing this at 5:15 am and I don't plan to sleep before 10. I woke up at 4pm today. Which is totally normal :). Burning phoneix 02:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: unless you're a prince in Jeddah...in which case it's alcohol, drugs and prostititutes...Viewing cable 09JEDDAH443, UNDERGROUND PARTY SCENE IN JEDDAH: SAUDI YOUTH  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeCausa (talk • contribs) 07:23, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nightlife in Saudi Arabia? 

message: I cut a lot of poorly written text which appears to be more like propaganda from the section of politics. Also, the section of economics had a well-written several paragraphs, followed by text which did not fit with the above and which was an amalgam of data, belonging to Economy of Saudi Arabia. I cut that one too.
I wonder if there are any comments on that. Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 18:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruthless cuts 

message: Stable versioning is being tested on this article.  This means that all editing will be made on Saudi Arabia/development, and on a regular basis, good edits will be moved onto the consensus page.  If you disagree with the current version, please let me know.  Ral315 (talk) 05:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stable versioning tested on this article. 

message: It has been stated in the History section that a Saudi State was first established in 1750. Should the Establishment section of the Fact file have a slight change.
many writers and contributers here are concerned with bad Islam and political structures not allowing others to interfer easily. real history and social and cultural stuff is second priority.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.137.11 (talk) 03:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Establishment? 

message: It seems like whole sections of this article are completely destroyed by vandalism.  Can someone please clean this up so that this is a credible article again?  I would but I don't know enough about Saudi Arabia to completely change the sections, which looks like is what is needed.
- "Saudi Arabia is the world's leading petroleum producer and exporter." - this is contestable. Russia overtook Saudia Arabia as the world's largest oil producer in August 2006, and I haven't heard that that situation has changed since. Palefire 17:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Really, I haven't heard about that! Is there a source for this?Burning phoneix 18:27, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, plenty of sources -     Palefire 05:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major Vandalism Issues 

message: Why are there so many photos of Riyadh hotel resorts for the Saudi Arabia country article?  Kind of ridiculous, don't you think? --75.31.240.212 22:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I live in riyadh and I've never seen those places but they say they are parks so I assumed that it was OK. :/Burning phoneix 18:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photos 

message: I'm an English teacher with two Saudi students; they're writing about their homeland in English.  One is doing something on marriage and courtship in Saudi Arabia; I'm having him write it in the culture article; I'm going to link the story here at the culture heading.  If there is a better place for these contributions, or other suggestions for organizing this material, please advise.Nhrenton 13:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Culture heading vs. Culture of Saudi Arabia Article 

message: I have made a few amendments and additions to the very brief history of Saudi Arabia. Any comments or suggestions?
Trinaw 15:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: Saudi king said last week that some Saudis are converting to Shia, is that true? Can anyone confirm it? Was he talking about Saudis being dissatisfied wit the current regime or he was talking about the public being fed up with the Western backed anti-Islamic regime of Saudi? Why these guys are so afraid of people being Muslims? Kiumars
:I doubt that he stated that thet are converting to shia but rather that some people are trying to influnence modrate muslims to become shia. The situation is very critical now with sunni and shia war in iraq that some people are trying to influnce it down to the Saudi state. And they are afraid of insurgency because some people are backing up fundamental shia sects and smuggling weapons etc in the country. The major view about these shia is that they have loyalty not for the nation but for Iran.. which is dangerous for the nation's securtiy. 87.109.194.132 12:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are in the eastern region, dude. Dammam, shia population is pretty high.. --Yu5uF 19:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saudis converting to Shia 

message: Why does this page indicate at the bottom that Saudi Arabia is a member of the OECD? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.189.28.37 (talk) 16:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It doesn't actually say the country is part of the group, the template is just there for some reason. I'll remove it. --Phoenix 04:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saudi Arabia Page 

message: After having read the "Education" section, I am left with the feeling that the Saudi education system is a darn good one. Heavily financed and accessible for everyone and all that... Nothing more to add to that? I have heard some numbers about very high illiteracy rates. Is it possible to rewrite this in still NPOV manner that covers reality better than it does now? Medico80 21:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes . Ammar (Talk - Don't Talk) 06:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would serouisly consider the Saudi education system to be quite bad I'm afraid. It depends on rote memorization and a large chunk of the school day is taken to religious education in addition to one class of "Watiniya" a week which translates to "Patriotism". How sad is that? Burning phoneix (talk) 23:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Education 

message: Who will write on this? some other wikipedia? -- UNSIGNED : 12.7.175.2 06:16, 9 July 2007 
dont worry enough slander have been put up here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.137.11 (talk) 04:29, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  what about religious freedom in saudi arabia 

message: I've been trying to find the answer to, "Can I get Saudi nationality/citizenship if I marry a Saudi woman?" anywhere on the Internet. The nationality/citizenship section of this article is very weak. Also- the recent law that was passed for citizenship- does that allow one to actually apply for a Saudi passport? Or is it just an ability to stay in the kingdom without the need for sponsor?
so you are saying, can I get rid of the sponsor by screwing a girl from the internet? please look for citzenship application on another web-site.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.137.11 (talk) 04:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Immigration/Citizenship/Nationality of Saudi Arabia 

message: On Wikipedia, there are many sections detailing the passports of various countries. For example: Canadian Passport or Singapore Passport. Saudi passport holders aren't able to travel to several countries such as Thailand. A friend of mine traveled to Thailand indirectly on her Saudi passport and upon return, her passport was suspended for 1 year and she was fined. Perhaps this information can be placed on the 'Saudi Arabia Passport' page if one is created.
I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia until my family migrated to the United States. From what I learned from my parents, I think that one of the ways for getting citizenship in Saudi Arabia is to convert into Islam. Although I am Filipino and born in Saudi Arabia, I'm not an Arabian citizen. Bustamove34 (talk) 05:03, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Saudi Passport Section 

message: Someone (User:Slackerlawstudent) changed "as-Saʻūdiyya" to "as-Suʻūdiyya". Is that a local pronunciation or something? -- 129.78.64.102 08:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both correct , this is a non-english speaking state , so translation depends on the simulation between arabic and english alphabets. i even recommand writing Al-Sa'udiyya    A M M A R   14:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "as-Suʻūdiyya" 

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BetacommandBot 07:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use rationale for Image:Economic cities.gif 

message: In the Government section the text starting with "The combination of relatively high oil prices and exports" and ending "which provide a substantial fiscal "cushion."" seem more an economical analysis which should be merged with the appropriate section.
FlipC 15:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economic details under Government heading 

message: There seems to be some confusion about the nature of article leads, and what information might be appropriate to include in the lead for this article, so I thought I would jot some explanatory notes down here to enable editors to understand the context to my recent edit. An article lead tries to do is to summarise the most important points of the article. The lead isn't just a bland statement of basic facts about the country, although it can contain some of these if they aid with understanding. Instead it is meant to give a reader who is short of time and unable to read the whole article a basic introduction to the subject in question. It is important therefore that all of the most notable aspects of an article's subject should be reflected in its lead. Any aspect on which there is a large amount of content later in the article is a good candidate for the lead; similarly anything which marks out a country as particularly distinctive in relation to other countries should be mentioned. The article on France, for example, talks about its imperial past and its role as a founder member of the UN; the article on Panama points out that the country is a transcontinental nation; that on Bangladesh mentions monsoons. These "notable aspects" will, of course, be different for different countries; to state that if a particular piece of information doesn't appear in all country articles it shouldn't appear in any (I paraphrase) means that no country lead would contain the things that marks the country out as distinctive, by definition. A useful rule of thumb is "is this something that the country is very well known for?" - if so, the lead is a sensible place to summarise this, and there should be corresponding detailed content to back this up below. Leads should also not contain any information that is not contained elsewhere in the article, because they are summaries. So ... "info is included elsewhere in the article" is, fairly obviously, not a good reason in itself to delete content from the lead. Hope that helps. SP-KP 18:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well firstly, it's highly debatable whether this is one of the three things the country is most well-known for.  Perhaps this is simply the aspect that is of most interest to you.  You're implying that aside from Mecca, Medina, and oil exports, the only thing notable about this large, ancient, and complex country are vague "perceptions" by Westerners about human rights. If Israel, Iran, Burma, Syria, China, and Egypt - all countries with much more notable human rights issues - don't include info of this nature in the lead, there is no reason Saudi Arabia should be any different.  What makes all the teams editing those articles wrong, and your opinion correct (with all due respect)?  Secondly, it's not clear whether you're talking about actual human rights violations, or simply "Western perceptions" of human rights in Saudi Arabia.  If it's simply an issue of how the country is perceived by the West, then that's not terribly notable, and is much too ethnocentric.  If it's the former then the text is simply too vague.  If you're going to mention this in the lead, then in fairness, you should make it clear to the reader what specifically these organizations object to.  Painting such a broad brush that may imply the whole range of imaginable human rights issues (some applicable to this country and some not) does not serve the reader's interest in an objective and fact-based treatment of the subject. -- Slacker 18:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I am aware of the policy; the policy says that notable topics should/can be addressed in the lead, but the way you insist on applying it makes it seem like the policy is "if it's in the article, it can be in the lead".  It seems to me that, according to the policy, you have to demonstrate that this info is notable enough to be in the lead.  This is why the other country articles are relevant; they don't "prove" that it's wrong to include the info, but when many teams of editors worked for a long time on comparable articles and concluded that this sort of info is not notable enough to be in the lead paragraph, then we can use that as guidance as to what is and is not appropriate for similar articles.  Also, I didn't mean to say that human rights concerns were simply based on perceptions (otherwise I would have argued against inclusion of this topic in the body as well).  What I meant was that the text you inserted seems to be speaking about Western perceptions, not the actual, objective information which you mention.  Simply saying "there are Western perceptions that Saudi Arabia is a bad place" is not notable enough for the lead.  I know that's not what you're trying to say, but that's what the text is saying right now.  In any case, if the text stays, then I hope it would specify exactly what Saudi Arabia is accused of, because right now it's too broad to be considered encyclopedic. -- Slacker 20:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I was thinking something along the lines of "Human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have repeatedly expressed concern about issues A, B, and c in Saudi Arabia, although the Saudi government dismisses these concerns."  That just feels more accurate and measured in my humble opinion.  As for whether this sort of topic was discussed in the other country articles; I'll have to look at those discussions and get back to you.  Thanks for your reply. -- Slacker 04:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

text: The most recent "Democracy Index" in The Economist holds Saudi Arabia as the seventh most authoritarianhttp://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/25828/20081021185552/graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Democracy%20Index%202008.pdf, which is only notable as a change from the listing as ninth in the above text.  Krumbel (talk) 13:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article leads