Talk:Alternative fuel vehicle

message: This article contains the following observation :
The term "'Alternative Fuel Cars' refers to cars that run on Alternative fuel; any method of powering an engine that does not involve petroleum. The term car may be used for different types of vehicles, starting from light three wheeled vehicles to road trains".
There is no method of fueling an (internal combustion) engine which does not somewhere along the line involve petroleum.  The only question is that of degree.  Often this involvement is behind the scene and must be dug into persistently rather than simply seen immediatley or off-hand.  
Other types of alternatively fueled engines exist which in a similar fashion obscure their dependence -- to one degree or another -- on petroleum.
: That's an odd statement.  I guess if you look far enough back along the chain, you'll find something that wouldn't have happened without petroleum - but it's a bit of a stretch.  If I fuel my car with propane gas (as my father did for many years) - I'd be using an alternative fuel in a regular internal combustion engine.  The propane might have been made as a byproduct of petroleum distillation - but a lot of propane is extracted from natural gas - which is totally unrelated to petroleum - there are plenty of natural gas wells that produce no oil whatever.  So if my local source of propane happens to come from natural gas then no petroleum was directly involved.
: I guess you are going to argue that the truck that delivered the propane to the dealer was fuelled by petroleum products - or that the man who runs the propane extraction stage at the natural gas well drove to work in a petroleum vehicle or that the paint on the propane storage tank was made from oil.  Therefore (you will probably argue) petroleum was involved somehow in the process.  But that's a ludicrous argument - you might as well say that there are no alternative fuels that don't rely on cheese because the guy who runs the propane production plant eats cheese sandwiches for his lunch.  Everything on the entire planet has some connection (however tenuous) to everything else on the planet.  So if you are arguing for a really indirect connection then this is a true-ism - it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be said.
: So let's assume you aren't talking about really indirect contributions from petroleum.  In that case, you are definitely wrong.  There are hydrogen-fuelled cars that get their hydrogen by the electrolysis of water using electricity that comes from nuclear power which in turn is fuelled by uranium isotopes that are obtained by refining naturally occurring uranium using gas-centrifuges that are powered by electricity that comes from other nuclear power stations.  This would be an example of an alternative fuel (Hydrogen) which is burned in an internal combustion engine - where no petroleum whatever was directly involved in the production process.  Of course you could argue that the bearings on the gas centrifuge were lubricated with oil that was refined from petroleum...but as I said, if you are looking at such indirect sources then you might equally argue that all cars are run on fuels that are ultimately derived from cheese - which is not something worth mentioning.
: SteveBaker 22:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I moved some of the photos around, and cleaned up a couple of the links.  I don't think that all the photos needed to be on the right-hand side.  I think this makes the article a little more visually interesting.  Bry9000 (talk) 05:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo locations

message: :Image:Brazilianethanolposter.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Brazilianethanolposter.JPG

message: electric vehicles do not use a alternative fuel. Its merely electrical storage, it does not involve burning of a energetic substance.
Therefore, the article should be made in line with the green vehicle article and electric-section should be moved to there. Alternative fuel vehicle should be linked at this page aswell.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.167.2 (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly the article needs improvement, but "alternative fuel vehicle" includes many types of vehicles, including advance technology vehicles. Also is truth that "alternative fuel" is more limited in scope. However, remember that at Wiki common use prevails over more technical terms. See Wiki definition of fuel: it is any material that is burned or altered in order to obtain energy and to heat or to move an object..--Mariordo (talk) 23:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think fuel is or should be read so narrowly. Certainly electric vehicles are commonly considered alternatively fueled vehicles in the literature and in popular use. Shadowjams (talk) 00:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Electric not a "fuel"

message: Hi, I added Trev model images. 
For a better look I tried to make them even in height, but I could not manage that.
May be you can help? 3DRivers (talk) 12:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I will be glad to help you, in fact I tried to do it myself, but the image returns a red link, meaning that it does not exist (and that is why I remove it). Can you point its location for me please (provide the link of the page where it is located).-Mariordo (talk) 22:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Done, but the only way was vertical. Two image is too much for a general article (see Wikipedia:Undue weight). Why don't you choose one, and use the two in the car's specific article.-Mariordo (talk) 04:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  How to align the bottom of the images?  

message: Cars running on either syngas or the combination ethanol-nitrous oxide (flexible-fuel vehicle) should be mentioned. See also http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/biofuels/garbage-powered-car1.htm  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.116.161 (talk) 09:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Nitrous oxide and syngas-powered car

message: Perhaps that the reducing of the battery capacity may be mentioned at the battery-electric vehicle section ? See Talk:Hybrid_vehicle#Hybrid_cars_with_very_little_energy_storage_capacity_in_electrical_storage_device
91.182.169.17 (talk) 07:07, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Battery electric vehicles

message: Can we mention something about the engine control unit altering ?
A gasoline engine car that has its tank filled with say ethanol, rather than gasoline for which the engine was initially designed, will run worse and the engine would require more maintenance if the fuel injection timing and amount of fuel sprayed into it hasn't been changed.
Using a carburettor instead of direct injection (which uses needle valves) is off course the easy way to do it, but not many people will want to convert their car by removing the direct injection needles and swapping the whole thing for a carburettor.
I read https://www.defcon.org/images/defcon-15/dc15-presentations/dc-15-higbee.pdf and found some companies/products in it which could be mentioned, however I don't want to promote commercial companies off course (adhering to wiki policy), and another issue is that not all products made may be universally used. It seems that there are different ECU's and software loaded unto one ECU may not work on others -see http://www.romraider.com/ - (so we best just mention only those things that are univerally usable). I assume this requires replacing the ECU alltogether with one that works on all engines, and using (open-source) software that runs on this (preferably open) hardware. Settings should be changable so that a wide range of fuels can be run optimally on any engine (injection timing and amount of fuel per spray being settable freely)
As such, romraider all ready falls out of the boat (as not universal). Same goes for OpenPort/ECuFlash (see http://www.tactrix.com/ and http://www.openecu.org/index.php?title=Main_Page ) Leaves just
the VEMS ECU V3 and the MicroSquirt. None of these are open hardware though, nor do they use open source ECU software I think and I also don't know what software they are able to communicate with open source pc software like Enginuity (there's also ECUedit but that's not open-source).
There are some open-source ECU's btw ([rusEfi http://rusefi.com], SECU-3) but I don't know whether the timing and fuel amount per spray can be set with that.
Finally, there's also Coolingmist, Devils own, Snow performance, and Aquamist but these too are not open-source, and I doubt that they can be set to inject a certain amount of fuel (settable), or change the spray timing (they're just intented for injecting water to the engine appearantly; which seems to be a technique to cool the engine). See Water_injection_(engine).
KVDP (talk) 13:07, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Engine control unit altering

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message: I was reading the article and thought that it is essentially a long list of comparable technologies. The comparison could be easier for readers if the most interesting information was put into a table. ——Nikolas Ojala (talk) 17:32, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about a comparison table? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I've removed the following as it is unsourced and about demonstration-phase technology. Solar vehicle technology has moved to the commercialization phase. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 20:12, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old solar car content 

message: I've removed this diagram as it's very big and not very informative. Happy to discuss if anyone wants to keep it. 
Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 17:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fuel pathways diagram 

message: We have four pictures of hydrogen cars: every single model that has ever been commercially produced, plus one that never got out of the concept stage. Seems a bit excessive. I'm planning to remove them all except the Mirai, which IMHO has the most interesting story.
thumb|Sequel, a hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicle from General Motors
Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:07, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hydrogen photos 

message: The section on Flexible-fuel vehicles has a lot of detail in it that could be useful in the main Flexible-fuel vehicle article, but that  think is too much detail for a broad article like this one. I'm planning to cut the following content; please let me know if you disagree: Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to trim the Flexible-fuel vehicle section 

message: The section on Hybrid vehicles has a lot of manufacturer-specific detail. I'm planning to cut the following content; please let me know if you disagree: 
By 2017 the Prius is sold in more than 90 countries and regions, with Japan and the United States as its largest markets. In May 2008, global cumulative Prius sales reached the 1 million units, and by September 2010, the Prius reached worldwide cumulative sales of 2 million units, and 3 million units by June 2013. , global hybrid sales are led by the Prius family, with cumulative sales of 6.0361 million units, excluding its plug-in hybrid variant. The Toyota Prius liftback is the leading model of the Toyota brand with cumulative sales of 3.985 million units, followed by the Toyota Aqua/Prius c, with global sales of 1.380 million units, the Prius v/α/+ with 671,200, the Camry Hybrid with 614,700 units, the Toyota Auris with 378,000 units, and the Toyota Yaris Hybrid with 302,700. The best-selling Lexus model is the  Lexus RX 400h/RX 450h with global sales of 363,000 units.
The Honda Insight is a two-seater hatchback hybrid automobile manufactured by Honda. It was the first mass-produced hybrid automobile sold in the United States, introduced in 1999, and produced until 2006.  Honda introduced the second-generation Insight in Japan in February 2009, and the new Insight went on sale in the United States on April 22, 2009.  Honda also offers the Honda Civic Hybrid since 2002.
, Japan ranked as the market leader with more than 5 million hybrids sold, followed by the United States with cumulative sales of over 4 million units since 1999, and Europe with about 1.5 million hybrids delivered since 2000. Japan has the world's highest hybrid market penetration. By 2013 the hybrid market share accounted for more than 30% of new standard passenger car sold, and about 20% new passenger vehicle sales including kei cars. The Netherlands ranks second with a hybrid market share of 4.5% of new car sales in 2012. See Figure 1.3, pp 6. See also tables in pp. 88–110 for HEV market by country from 2001 to 2012.
, global sales are by Toyota Motor Company with more than 10 million Lexus and Toyota hybrids sold, followed by Honda Motor Co., Ltd. with cumulative global sales of more than 1.35 million hybrids ; Honda sold 187,851 hybrids in 2013. Honda sold 158,696 hybrids during the first six months of 2014. Ford Motor Corporation with over 424 thousand hybrids sold in the United States through June 2015, of which, around 10% are plug-in hybrids; By June 2012 Ford had sold 200,000 full hybrids in the US since 2004. See the section: December 2012 Hybrid Cars Numbers. A total of 434,498 hybrid electric vehicles were sold during 2012. Ford sold 32,543 hybrids in the U.S. during 2012, including 14,100 Ford Fusion Hybrids, 10,935 C-Max Hybrids, 6,067 Lincoln MKZ Hybrids, and 1,441 Ford Escape Hybrids. Hyundai Group with cumulative global sales of 200 thousand hybrids , including both Hyundai Motors and Kia Motors hybrid models; and PSA Peugeot Citroën with over 50,000 diesel-powered hybrids sold in Europe through December 2013.
The Elantra LPI Hybrid, launched in the South Korean domestic market in July 2009, is a hybrid vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine built to run on liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) as a fuel. The Elantra PLI is a mild hybrid and the first hybrid to adopt advanced lithium polymer (Li–Poly) batteries. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:30, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to trim the Hybrid section