Talk:Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses/Archive 3

message: I have made the changes. If everyone likes the table in principle, I will add this table to the main article, further adjstments and fine tuning can then be made from there. One area that will need work is references. If I do not get any objections I will add to article shortly. Lucy 23:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Layout 

message: Firstly, thank you for including this information. It does fill a void in the article to date and it must have taken you quite some time to research and assemble the required information. There are a few requirements to meet after which the information cannot be debated or removed.
# In the opening it states that the assertion comes from critics but does not name any particular party. It also states that this is the most primary objection. This cannot remain as is without substantiation. See Wikipedia Policies Weasel Words and Original Research. 
# I had a (brief) look at the references you have used for the table. They seem to be relating to group dynamics and mind control as a whole and not directly related to Jehovah's Witnesses. In order to keep this section you would have to find some credible, published sources that link this research to Jehovah's Witnesses. The research on group dynamics is published and verifiable but the link to the Witnesses needs to be established.
# There are several instances where blanket statements about the policies of Jehovah's Witnesses have been made (for example is that Witnesses are encouraged to modify relationships with non-witness relatives and the whole section of "How Witnesses Practice it"). I understand that having been in the religion, these are just pure facts but for the sake of the article even these have to be established with references from Witness literature such as the Watchtower.
These may not be the only areas, but they are what I noticed. Other editors will help to further improve the section for the benefit of the article. I hope all of this discussion and that above has not been overwhelming. This article is... well... controversial so when you make additions to it you need to be prepared to defend them and be reasonable about accepting the modifications of other editors otherwise (right or wrong) the additions have a tendency to disappear.  Lucy 23:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Family Integrity and Freedom of Mind

message: I would like to request that a neutral party consider the following links to replace some of the less significant links in the "Resources Critical" section. I understand there has been some consensus discussion on these links in the past, however, the links below, particularly BeyondJW and Grossoehme, are more substantial and important from critical view than most of the existing "Resources Critical". The links to volunteers who answer questions seems reasonable because similar resources are available in the "Resources For" section. Thank you. Best wishes,AndrewXJW 02:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ithink you already know I thnk these are redundant and unnecessary. George 02:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you. Perhaps others would comment? AndrewXJW 20:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resources Critical 

message: We should all read: Wikipedia:Words to avoid
It also looks like we may be heading for RFC George 02:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Current edit conflict

message: Critics point to three Witness policies which they claim have a negative impact on family ties and stability: (1) Overt shunning, (2) Social seperatism, and (3) Prohibition of traditional family celebrations. Critics further suggest that it is a common shared goal of all high-control organizations to undermine family stability because doing so makes individuals easier to control, and that Witness policies are consistent with high-control organizations in this respect.
Shunning When a Witness chooses to end their membership (see section "Treatment of members who disassociate"), even family members are often shunned by relatives who remain Witnesses.
Social seperatism Witnesses practice social isolation from their communities to the extent possible, always preferring to socialize with other Witnesses. This is meant to protect purity of character based on their interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:33 (NWT, "bad associations spoil useful habits"). There is no exception to this general rule with regard to non-Witness relatives; therefore, when one member of a family becomes a Witness and the other does not, the Witness social seperatism policy makes it likely that the family ties between such persons will deteriorate.
::How can seperatism be complete when it is to the extent possible? POV. Huge need of researched proof that family ties deteriorate. George 14:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not complete. It is a significant degree, and a complete preference, but one cannot completely seperate from the world while living in the world; isn't that so? AndrewXJW 19:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the last sentence needs a reference. BenC7 04:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I find it sad that people only get together when a holiday demands it. George 14:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Regardless of how we might like it to be otherwise, we live in a busy world, and the practical reality is that most families have the habit of getting together at specific annual occasions, not considering this a demand on them, but rather an opportunity. This does not mesh well with Witness policy, which, for perhaps unrelated reasons, removes each of these unique opportunties. People should be aware of such things in advance so that they can make informed choices, should they not? AndrewXJW 19:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

text: This section needs references. BenC7 10:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Family Integrity

message: I suggest deleting the section "Conscience matter" in the Blood section. I flagged this a while ago, and it has not been acted upon. It does not address a controversy. I'll delete it unless anyone has some objection. BenC7 06:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blood 

message: *Appendicitis and typhoid fever are caused by worms, and may be cured with SantoninWatchtower, Jan. 15, 1912
*There is a "very effective and simple remedy for cancers".Watchtower, Jul 1 1913, p. 200
*"Vaccination never prevented anything and never will."The Golden Age, Oct. 12, 1921, p. 17 "Vaccination does not prevent smallpox." The Golden Age, Feb. 4, 1931, p. 297
*"It has never been proven that a single disease is due to germs."The Golden Age, Jan. 16, 1924, p. 250
*"There is no such thing as rabies."The Golden Age, Jan. 1, 1923, p. 214
:All of these statements were views put forth by doctors, in the minority, but nonetheless so. This section implies that JW's are crackpots who believed these things without reason.
::I don't know how you know that these views were put forth by doctors, but if that is verifiable then you can add it if you wish. BenC7 05:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Non-factual statements

message: *1907: Armageddon will culminate in the year 1914Russell, C.T, The Time is At Hand, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc., 1907 p. 101
*1917: In 1918, God would destroy churches "wholesale" and church members by the millions.Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 3, 1917, p. 485.
*1922-1923: The resurrection of the dead would occur in 1925.Watchtower, May 15, 1922; Sep. 1, 1922; Apr. 1, 1923; Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1925, p. 110 In preparation for the 1925 date, the Watchtower Society acquired a property in California, and built a mansion on it. The property was to house people such as Abraham, Moses, David, and Samuel, who would be resurrected to life in 1925. 
*1924: As of 1926, there would be no more deaths. Witnesses were encouraged to add a room to their houses, and get an undertaker to decorate it, since undertakers would be out of work. Witnesses could then call Abraham's office in Jerusalem and request that a deceased relative be brought back to life. These would subsequently appear in the new room.The Way to Paradise, 1924, pp. 228, 229
*1938: In 1938, Armaggedon was too close for marriage or child bearing.Face the Facts, 1938, pp. 46-50
*1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.Watchtower, Sep. 15, 1941, p. 288
*1984: "The end" would occur before the end of the 20th century.Watchtower, Mar 1, 1984, pp. 18-19
:Paraphrase of an old publication that I cannot check for accuracy. One is an exaggeration. The rest appear to be correct, but again I don't own these very old books. Read some of the work of the educated during this time and you will see just as many mistaken ideas. George 12:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A number of Watchtower-related sites contain the information (I'm not sure which ones you are specifically referring to). If you look up "Watchtower Quotes" or similar I'm guessing you will find it. But these are not just ideas; they are predictions. And most people at the time didn't claim to be God's chosen vessel for dispensing truth, or the only people in all the earth guided by God's holy spirit. Don't worry, Unfulfilled historical predictions by Christians is an article in itself. This is relatively tame in comparison. BenC7 05:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is meant to refer to the reference currently labelled 28, but this would change once included in the article, so I just wrote it that way for now. BenC7 05:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: No explanation of the reasoning JW's have on this topic. George 12:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought this would be sufficient; the statements are reasoned. I have stated that they defend themselves against the claim, and then say why. Add to it if you think it is insufficient. BenC7 05:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Failed predictions

message: I'm itchin' to delete this entire section.  It is hearsay and conjecture.  The sources are not Wp:nor#Reputable publications.  The one link accuses the WTS of money laundering.  Maybe the WTS did change how literature got payed for as a direct result of the Supreme Court's decision on the Jimmy Swaggert case.  There is no evidence to prove that, nor is there a reputable source given that even insinuates it.  Yay / Nay?  Duffer 09:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I'm concerned it's a "who cares?" section of the article. I vote toss it, or reduce it to a paragraph. BenC7 10:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Payment of sales tax on literature 

message: Duffer to insert comments here about what he believes is "POV" or "factually inaccurate". Because that is what you do when you put a dispute tag up. BenC7 07:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed tag 

message: I have made some changes to the section I proposed earlier about the Statements of the WBTS. I have reduced the bullet-point style presentation and removed the section on medical statements, considering, as Lucy said, that they were quite old. I am posting it here for comment before its inclusion in the article. BenC7 02:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revision of section proposed earlier 

message: ===Unfulfilled predictions===
The Watchtower has made predictions over the years regarding specific dates and events that have not come to pass, most significantly being that Armageddon was going to arrive in 1914, and later that the resurrection onto earth was to happen in 1925.
The religion's publications have stated that it does not claim to be inspired by God, or that the interpretations given are infallible. "The care of God’s organisation today is not in the hands of men that are inspired by God. They can make mistakes as any imperfect man can." The Watchtower, 15 December 1962  It is believed that God’s spirit directs his organisation to uncover scriptural truths over time and that mistakes can be made only to be refined and improved upon over time. 
Prior to 1914 it was said that Armageddon was going to occur on October 2nd 1914. For instance The Time Is At Hand (1889) 1908 ed. p.99 stated “In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914.”
Millions Now Living Will Never Die p.88 stated that 1925 was to be "resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful ones of old.” The Watch Tower 1922 September 1 p.262 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures because it is fixed by the law God gave to Israel. Viewing the present situation in Europe, one wonders how it will be possible to hold back the explosion much longer; and that even before 1925 the great crisis will be reached and probably passed.”
The prediction that Armageddon would occur in 1975 was never specifically stated but implied in a number of articles. The confusion surrounding 1975 started with an announcement by the Governing Body that, according to their Biblically-based calculations, the year 1975 marked the end of 6,000 years of human history - i.e., the Adam was created 6,000 years earlier. Beyond that, the official organs and publications of the Witnesses said nothing. But this date was taken by many people as the year during which Armageddon would occur, and it spurred thousands of people to join Jehovah's Witnesses - only to leave after 1975 came and went, and nothing happened. The only things the Governing Body did say about 1975 during this period in the Witnesses' history were, 1) that they had never said anything about Christ's second coming happening in 1975, and 2) that Witnesses should remember that Christ said his kingdom would not come when everyone was expecting, but when it was least expected -- so it almost certainly not be 1975.
Critics contend that the Watchtower has claimed to be a "prophet" in the past and continues to expect members of Jehovah’s Witnesses to accept their guidance,without question, which demonstrates a similar position today. "This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women… Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses… Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" The Watchtower 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them' April 1 1972 p.197   "Whom has God actually used as his prophet?... Jehovah's witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. ... It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths..." The Watchtower 'Down with the Old—Up with the New!' January 15 1959 pp.39-41  Buttrey, John M (2004). Let No One Mislead You. iUniverse.   Waldeck, Val Jehovah’s Witnesses: What do they believe?. Pilgrim Publications SA.    
Witnesses view these charges as fundamentally flawed, and deceitful, in that they apply a meaning to a word not intended by the given contexts."Clearly there is a considerable difference made in the writings of Jehovah's Witnesses between the guidance given to those men who wrote the Holy Scriptures, and the guidance one gains from reading those Scriptures. Thus, it does not matter in what sense others use the word "guidance" in relation to Watchtower writings; the key concern is how do Jehovah's Witnesses use the term in relation to themselves, and in relation to the direction given by God to the Bible writers...To use the same terms, and then apply different meanings to them in an attempt to criticize Jehovah's Witnesses, is not charitable." Stafford, Jehovah's Witnesses Defended II, pg. 486.  The criticism implies the meaning of "direct divine revelation" to the word "prophet" despite the context in which the Watchtower Society presents it: interpretation of prophetic biblical passages, and "acting as a prophet" by relaying that interpretation."We can see that the proof offered in support of their contention that they acted like a "prophet" for God did not involve the proclamation of inspired messages that originated with them; rather, "preaching the good news of God's kingdom," and "explaining [emphasis added] the book of Ezekiel as well as that of Revelation" is how they act like a prophet for God." Stafford, Jehovah's Witnesses Defended II, pg. 474.
===Eschatology===
====1914====
Christ's presence (Greek: parousia) is considered to be his invisible rule from heaven and is believed to have begun in October of 1914. Witnesses believe that Jesus' prophecy recorded in Matthew 24 is being fulfilled since that time. They identify the same period with the "last days" referred to in 2 Timothy 3:1. It is taught that the outbreak of World War I in July 1914 was a sign of Christ's presence in October of 1914. Reports of other conflicts and natural disasters are suggested as proof that world conditions have worsened since the expulsion of Satan from heaven in 1914. 
The date 1914 is based on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, calculated by the Witnesses to have occurred in 607 BC. This date is subject to debate with almost all non-Witness scholars placing the destruction within a year of 587 BC.
====1975====
Some leaders in the organization, mostly local, strongly suggested that Christ's millennial reign over earth would begin by 1975."Franz ... pointed out, “we should not think that this year of 1975 is of no significance to us,” for the Bible proves that Jehovah is “the greatest chronologist” and “we have the anchor date, 1914, marking the end of the Gentile Times.”", The Watchtower 1 May 1975, page 285"1975 will, no doubt, go down in history as a year of very significant and interesting events.", The Watchtower 1 June 1975 p 349"as the critical year of 1975 enters", The Watchtower 15 December 1974, p.764 Many pre-1975 Watchtower articles further insinuated that the 'great tribulation' would occur in 1975, stating that the year would be marked by serious problems with world population, famine, and oil shortages.
While Witnesses have always been encouraged to increase the preaching work, and avoid secular life goals or careers, the reaction to that instruction was especially strong prior to 1975. The disappointment from the fallout of this failed expectation caused considerable loss of membership."the worldwide report of the activity of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 1977/78 reflected a decrease in the number sharing in the preaching work", Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom, p.110.
===Statements of the Watchtower Society===
I will be posting a question on the material added. I do not have the time to go thru it all right now but I see bias, inaccurate info.  This is not a page to attack a relgion this is an encyclopedia and should meet such standards.  My hope is to present balanced info, with out forcing the reader into a conclusion. Johanneum 12:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Replaced sections 

message: I will be posting a question on the material added. I do not have the time to go thru it all right now but I see bias, inaccurate info.  This is not a page to attack a relgion this is an encyclopedia and should meet such standards.  My hope is to present balanced info, with out forcing the reader into a conclusion. Johanneum 12:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Statements of the Watchtower Society

message: I oppose the under construction tag for three reasons 1. it is unnecessary anyone can do it here User:Andries/Controversies regarding Jehovah's Witnesses 2. It is ugly 3. it has been there now since at least one week. 
I will remove the tag. Andries 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While those reasons are completely irrelevant, it is probably OK to remove the tag. The most recent major change was made on the 26th of August. The section on "Freedom of Mind" still needs expanding. BenC7 01:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of under contruction tag

message: Re reversion to The Watchtower Society is the "one and only channel" that has been used by God to continually dispense truth - here are a few direct quotes, including some of the references that are included in the article (apparently these weren't checked before the wording was changed...)
*Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period? (Watchtower, Apr 1, 1919)
*It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant Scriptural counsel to his people... (Watchtower, May 1, 1964)
*Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them and assigned them the responsibility of serving as his sole visible channel, through whom alone spiritual instruction was to come. Those who recognize Jehovah's visible theocratic organization, therefore, must recognize and accept this appointment of the "faithful and discreet slave" and be submissive to it. (Watchtower, Oct 1, 1967)
*...our heavenly Father has an appointed channel of communication, "the faithful and discreet slave." That "slave" has the responsibility to determine what information is made available to the household of faith, as well as "the proper time" for it to be dispensed. This spiritual food is available only through the theocratic organization. We should always look to God's appointed channel for reliable information...  (Our Kingdom Ministry, Sep 2002)
BenC7 11:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreeing with Johanneum; since 1919 the "channel" has been identified as "the faithful slave" and not any corporation used by them.  Statements have been made, at least at assemblies, if not in literature (at least I can't find any, but I'm rushed at the moment), that the faithful slave and its Governing Body would continue to direct Witness activities with or without legal corporations' existence/assistance. - CobaltBlueTony 14:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To me this seems overly nit-picky. But it can be changed to something like "Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body" or "(JWs) leadership" say these things. Trying to introduce various names at that stage would only be confusing. BenC7 10:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  WTS Statements about itself 

message: I've noticed that this article among others that pertain to Jehovah's Witnesses seem to be written with a negative, biased view. I am an advocate of fairness among all. Please take this thought into consideration when writing or editing another Page that includes Jehovah's witnesses
:Feel free to provide specific examples. BenC7 10:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Entire Article 

message: There are no sources suggesting Jesus was impaled on a stake. Jehovah's Witnesses believe he was nailed to a stake, which is the traditional Roman punishment. The crucifix apparently comes from some imagery relating to Thor, but was rarly used as a punishment. The stake is simply one wooden pole, identical to the crucifix but without the crossbar. Even the source that was attributed to the the suggestion on impaling made this clear. That was just a case of sensationalism and this article's severe bias. I've fixed the mistake. Robinoke 21:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A further addition is this wikipedia article. Rendering of σταυρός (staurós). Robinoke 23:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If you feel that the article is biased, please feel free to provide specific examples. BenC7 05:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well for starters, there is no literature published by the Jehovah's Witnesses claiming Jesus was impaled -- that was something fabricated by a Wikipedia user. Even the source cited didn't claim this. I think I was a bit inflamed when I said the whole article was biased though, because it isn't really. Robinoke 10:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Impaled" on a Stake and this articles POV 

message: I think that if you are going to publish what some critics think about the JW Internet philosophy then alternate critical opinions should not be witheld from the public.
Here is a scripturally supported alternate criticism with help from academia:
Other critics point to a scriptural fulfillment in regard to the Internet and it's effect on revealing the truth. Something which the Wikipedia project as a whole is making a large contribution. In regard to the Internet Mr. Stephen Cox, a professor of literature at the University of California made a very astute observation about: "the strange and unforeseen persistence of truth in our allegedly post-modern age" and used the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as a case study.
:Some person's blog is not an appropriate source of information. BenC7 10:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Internet Critics ''"the earth helped the woman"'' 

message: I'm not sure why Angicanism is on this list:
:"Jehovah's Witnesses have a number of doctrines that differ from those of traditional Christianity (Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism)."
The grammar here suggests that the four denominations in parentheses are an exhaustive categorization of traditional Christianity; however, Anglicanism is a form of Protestantism. The other three should cover every mainstream Christian group, I think. Mtford 16:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Traditional Christianity"