Talk:Taj El-Din Hilaly/Archive 1

message: This is very far from being a NPOV article. I don't like Hilaly either, but this is not acceptable language. Adam 08:25, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Far from NPOV

message: I've stubified this per WP:LIVING. None of it is properly referenced, and much of it negative. I'm not implying the article is unfair or non-neutral, I don't know. But this type of negative material needs a specific citation for just about every claim made. Please rebuild it with citations, or simply replace those parts of it that can be specifically verified.--Doc 19:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes he does, because he did so per WP:LIVING and an OTRS complaint. And how is removing unsourced negative information not improving an article?--§hanel 14:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually I'd have to say the latest version is more negative  (although there was a lot of negative material in the old one). However I agree the removal was necessary and proper but we should look in to sourcing some the info from the original article, if relevant and re-adding it here. This also might be useful to add some small 'counterpoints'  Nil Einne 23:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly, which is why it was removed in the first place. Negative information isn't forbidden, but obviously it should be well-sourced.--§hanel 20:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Just noticed some of the external links stuff may be useful for the Douglas Wood issue Nil Einne 23:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:LIVING]] 

message: I just found that answers.com quotes Wikipedia in its entry about this subject but with lots of info which is missing from Wikipedia itself. How come?
The link: http://www.answers.com/topic/taj-el-din-hilaly
Penedo 02:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biography? 

message: One is debating Muslim women's clothing in Australia, the other is debating Muslim women's clothing in Italy.
There is a it:lingua_italiano Daniela_Garnero_Santanch%c3%a8 article.  Please, someone, translate it|alian.
Thank You. it:Daniela_Garnero_Santanch%c3%a8.
hopiakuta ; [[    { %c2%a1 %c2%bf  %7e%7e%7e%7e  } ;]] 13:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Daniela_Garnero_Santanch%c3%a8]] 

message: Taj Al-Din Hilaly was instrumental in securing release of hostage Douglas Wood in Iraq in 2004(2005?). This should be included. — Donama 00:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: He certainly made a trip to the middle east on behalf of the family of Douglas Wood, and was able to contact the kidnappers and arrange payment. Whether that makes him instrumental in securing the release is another question. Andrewa 22:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Please sign your posts on talk pages. There seems to be some doubt as to the role of Hilaly in the Wood affair. So, bearing in mind that our only goal here is to improve the encyclopedia, any such positive info which is added to the article should be carefully and verifiably attributed to its source. Andrewa 06:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Nevertheless he did risk his own life and his own health (delaying a heart bypass operation) to make the trip. It made huge headlines at the time, and is therefore worth mentioning. Unless one is simply interested in highlighting the negatives aspects of his life only. Sdefranc 06:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing positive info

message: The parts of Hilaly's names are transcribed into Latin characters in a variety of ways. In newspapers I have seen El-Din, Al-Din, and al-Din for the middle one and Hilaly or Hilali for the last one. Any preference on which transcription is the best to choose for our article title. This makes a total of 6 possible combinations anyway so there must be 5 redirects in place to make it easy to find. — Donama 00:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Spelling of name

message: From this article: "He has not since apologised nor retracted his comments, in which he accused Jews of causing all wars [8]." He made this accusation in 1988... Mel Gibson's statement in 2006: "Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." Both are Australian and Gibson was raised in Australia... Not necessarily proof, but still interesting. KazakhPol 03:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You implying that there is some sort of Australian connection between the two? because the Jewish population in Australia is less than 0.5% and there is virtualy no anti-semitism. Both Hilaly and Gibson were born elsewhere and moved to Australia and since they are also both of different faiths, i do not think their comments are connected nor is there any link to Australia.CtrlDPredator 03:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mel Gibson connection?

message: Should there be a mention of other controversial parts of his sermon?
For instance he claimed Christians would be condemned "to the fires of hell. And not part time, they'll be in it for eternity. What are these people? The most evil of God's creation on the face of the earth."
"And behind every man who is a thief, a greedy woman. She is pushing him."
Richard 10:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I can easily picture him saying that, I think you'd need a newspaper article, lol. I remember hearing him say that muslims have more rights in Australia than convict-descendents as well. Or something along those lines.
Yoda921 06:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other controversies 

message: The article for Keysar Trad recently had changes done as a result of an OTRS complaint. If that article was a target, this article is also a likely target. The article looks good, but please remember to dot every i and cross every t when it comes to citing facts for this article. Andjam 04:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verifiability reminder 

message: Ive attempted to put the info up, but it does not show in the article's main page. Why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Truth 06 (talk • contribs).
:You must close the ref tags. --Scott Davis Talk 22:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Douglas Wood 

message: Mixed tenses and no source for Bikkini March section SmithBlue 02:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  See the other entry on this topic 'Bikini march suppported by white nationalists' --Eyedubya 16:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  User:BInguyen makes a very good point - the whole thing was a beat-up and irrelevant to an article about Hilaly. Besides, it didn't actually happen.Eyedubya 05:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bikkini(sp?) March 

message: My view; "Hilaly speaks Arabic eloquently" is a paraphrase of his supporters (soon to be) cited statement. It conveys the meaning that he is a good, or even very good, orator/speaker/preacher. For a Inman this is a very positive quality. This guy works for a large part with his words. His notability flows from the sermons and interview given in Arabic.
"Hilaly's first language is Arabic" does not pass on any of the above info. And also it is in need of a source as the "eloquently" source doesn't state "first language" or such. 
(will dig up cite for eloquently.)Other views? SmithBlue 01:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hilaly and Arabic language 

message: http://www.lma.org.au/sheikhs.php The Lebanese Muslim Association lists 4 Shiekhs for Lakemba Mosque;
*Shiekh Taj Al-Din Hilali, Mufti of Australia & New Zealand,
*Shiekh Yahya Safi, Imam of Lakemba Mosque, Australian Representative of Dar ul Fatwa of Lebanon
*Shiekh Bassam Alameddine, Assistant Shiekh 
*Shiekh Shady Al-Suleiman, Youth Representative
Views? SmithBlue 10:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not quite sure what point you are making. There is probably more than one priest at St Mary's Cathedral too. WWGB 13:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Imam of Lakemba - or not?  

message: Going improving cites I find http://is.ci-ce-ct.com:85/frameset.asp
Do other editors find this to be from a "reputable publisher"? SmithBlue 04:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its not linking to an article writen by them, just the translation of one of his speeches. I dont see a problem in the context that it is used in the article.CtrlDPredator 06:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reputable publisher? 

message: This story from the BBC . 
"Most of our clerics are selected on the basis that they have Australian values and Australian characteristics," Lebanese Muslim Association President Tom Zreika told The Australian newspaper."Some of them haven't lived up to that," he said.According to The Australian, the association sent a letter to the five imams concerned, demanding that they "pause and desist" from talking to the media, especially Arabic-speaking press.The association warned the imams that they could lose their position if they defied the directive.It said it had introduced the gagging order so that imams could concentrate on their primary task of offering pastoral care."
This might need adding. Hypnosadist 12:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Media ban

message: One of the section headings is "Abduction of Douglas Wood". Does the wording make it sound like he was involved in the abduction, rather than the negotiations? Andjam 21:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewording needed? 

message: See today's Sydney Morning Herald.  I'm not familiar enough with this article but I might have a go at updating. Merbabu 19:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: hmmmm now it seems that he hasn't been sacked. . I've reverted my changes but left the current tag. Suggest waiting for the dust to settle. Merbabu 10:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imam no more it would seem. 

message: ... i removed this tag, because it didn't seem to make sense at the top of the article - the main body of the article will remain unchanged after the current events, so i don't think we need this right now..... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Petesmiles (talk • contribs) 08:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yup - sounds reasonable. I'm surprised though given the controversy that follows this bloke that this page hasn't been jumped all over given various news articles this weekend.Merbabu 08:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  current event 

message: ...i've changed the wording on the douglas wood bit, because i agreed with the sentiment that as it stood there was a danger of implicitly linking the sheik with the abduction - also, i removed the reference to his eloquence in the opening paragraph.
I've removed it before, because i really feel that it's a bit of a non-sequitor, and makes the article read in a strange fashion. I won't be upset if someone puts it back, but please provide a rationale - perhaps his skills as an orator warrant a separate section?  - Petesmiles 08:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  eloquence and douglas wood 

message: This is an appalling article. Beginning from a POV of hate, collecting dirt and second-hand hearsay, and then presenting that as fact variously. You may also want to examine the role of The Australian's Richard Kerbaj in breaking 'controversies' about Hilali, and reflect on his apparent 'access' to confidential internal documents of the LMA. From whence do these recent 'controversies' emanate? And yes, as someone noted above, some actual bio details might be nice to see in a bio article. His daughter also has a few things to say from to time about the controversies, as do others in his praise. Someone from Lebanon, this week, for instance reports that Hilali deserves a medal for his charitability there this week.
Appalling in what manner - that it doesn't suit your opinion?  The article as far as I can tell is well referenced, arguably better than many others out there.  There isn't much point bleating on about the missing bio details/Lebanon charity work, if you feel it should be in the article, find a reference and edit away.  Crx2gen 02:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Referencing alone doesn't make an article NPOV. If an article on, say, abortion, had a majority of its statements from a pro-choice POV, it would still be POV no matter how well-referenced those statements were. -- Shoejartalk/edits 02:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: This section is too long; many of the links should be integrated into the references section. Will get onto this soon. Recurring dreams 08:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with removing article links from the External Links section. They don't belong in there. Any relevance they have should be exploited for referencing, and until they're used as actual references instead of cluttering up External Links, they shouldn't stay on the page. -- Shoejartalk/edits 08:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The purpose of external links is to support facts in the article.  You should actually read the policy.  The links you are seeking to add are just editorial opinion pieces from journalists. 124.182.136.193 17:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The flipside to Prester's comments is that simply agreeing with the opinion is not a reason for inclusion. I'd agree with the other comments that they can be used as in-line citations if they support a specific fact in the article although a better source should be found - ie, an actual news article rather than opinion peice, or better still, something academic. IN general, opinion pieces are written by journalists who are not experts in the subject, and even though they may be from respected publications, they are being paid to, well, make an opinion for us to either nod our head in agreement or get annoyed at - ie, to sell papers. What part of WP:EL is Prester referring too? Merbabu 03:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  External Links 

message: In this edit summary, Recurring dreams removes the see also for Sheikh Feiz Mohammad, asking "Remove see also section; what's the link between the two articles? They aren't related content-wise.". I think the link was added based on their statements about rape. Andjam 03:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also with Sheikh Feiz Mohammad