Talk:Subud

message: I added this completely new section a few months back without discussion but only gave a note that this is important as a testimonial to the being of Bapak. 
Quite recently it was deleted without any slight hint or note being given. I replaced it.
On March 7th 2009 it was again deleted, this instance  by  124.187.20.65 (talk) without any reason being given. 
I now want a little discussion on whether it is good to have this section.
This topic is in Bapak's  autobiography and needs no citation. It may be changed by anyone who thinks it can be made better. But if someone wants to delete it I think some reasons should be given as I presumed that deleting a whole section of a wiki page that is of some lengths should be accompanied by some mention of reasons.e.g. a short note like "deleted section - inoppropriate", etc.
I will replaced it again (and maybe again and again ?).
But if someone again decides to delete it giving some fair or even plausible reasons, I would accept it and let the deletion stay.   
LearningQM (talk) 07:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Learning QM, I'm not sure who's doing the deleting (their IP address suggests they're from Brisbane), but I think the section would go better on the page for Muhammad Subuh Sumohadiwidjojo.  M-Henry (talk) 21:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ascension to the Highest Heaven 

message: I've moved the references to Bennett and Gurdjieff out of the introduction and into the history section as the Subud organisation is not affiliated to Gurdjieff. M-Henry (talk) 08:51, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Introduction 

message: These seem to be deleting a lot of legitimate stuff and inserting opinions about people without any backup - e.g. "strongly anti-gay views embarrassing to Subud members"? That's very objectionable and no evidence provided. These seem to be totally slash and burn changes. M-Henry (talk) 06:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Edits by 92.251.165.123

message: I suggest the opening of the article be amended to more fully and objectively define Subud.  It currently says that Subud is simply a "spiritual movement."  However, more accurately:  "Subud is an international spiritual, charitable, youth, business and cultural association."  What do people think about this?  Aloha,  Directspirit (talk) 02:31, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Opening 

message: New section 'Ascension To The Highest Heaven' added today by 59.189.112.45 seems to breach Wikipedia NPOV policy. The content is from biographic entry on Subud's founder; account of subjective experience; not significantly informative about Subud (which pays no official attention to the account). Apparent bias to substantiate 'spiritual credentials', so I recommend deletion. Subudude (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Section on 'Ascension'

message: Returning to this article after being away for nearly a year, I see it has settled round a text which could have been produced by the organisations communications department (were it to have one). It is not encyclopaedic to rely on jargon incomprehensible to outsiders, nor to ignore criticism or views not shared by "insiders". The careful writing and editing of - say - Wikipedia on Scientology is a better example of how to approach such articles.
For the benefit of editors with more patience (and with more objectivity than those who seem to be editing this article at the moment) here are some references which have been repeatedly removed:-
::Subud has been characterised as a cult (including of the kind which has "directed attention toward the attainment of 'self-awareness', 'self-realization,' wisdom, insight or other primarily non-social objectives").Eister, A. W. (1974). Culture crises and new religious movements: A paradigmatic statement of a theory of cults. In I. I. Zaretsky & M. P. Leone (Eds.), Religious movements in contemporary America (p.622). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. A paper published in the academic journal 'Group Dynamics: Theory, Research and Practice' 'Group Dynamics: Theory, Research and Practice' website by Stephen C. Urlich, an environmental management scientist of Lincoln University in New Zealand, concludes:
::In this article, I have shown that despite Subud's claims to the contrary, it does have a complex theology. The latihan is the foundation stone of the group, and without it the group would not exist. and Members are encouraged to abandon reasonto feel only. Their free will is one of many "lower forces" (nafsu) that are barriers to spiritual progress. The latihan and associated "testing" act to keep the group cohesive and differentiate it from others in society. The influence of the leadership is pervasive, and the reverence demanded and accorded total. It is therefore not surprising that Association Subud de France was identified as a cult in 1995 by a board of inquiry into charismatic groups appointed by the French National Assembly. Subud was subsequently listed as one of over 150 charismatic groups in the 2001 French law for the prevention and repression of groups with a sectlike character.Stephen C. Urlich, "Evaluating the Charismatic Group Subud", Group Dynamics: Theory, Research and Practice, 2005, Vol. 9, No. 3 Gest, A. (Ed.). (1995, December). Report made in the name of the Board of Inquiry Into Cults. Presented to the National Assembly of France, Tenth Legislature (in French), accessed 8 August 2013. About-Picard law
:References
Testbed (talk) 04:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted references 

message: Of possible use to other editors:
* The writings of journalist Wayne Madsen, including his 2012 book "The Manufacturing of a President", which suggest that President Obama may be a member of Subud.
* Wayne Madsen further (for example in this article) suggests that the Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI) and Sukarno's Foreign Minister, as well as Ceylon's assassinated Prime Minister, Solomon Bandaranaike, have accused Subud of being a CIA front. Madsen obtained a declassified CIA memorandum prepared by the CIA's Asia Division of the Office of East Asia Analysis, dated February 15, 1985 ("Indonesia's Suharto: Losing the Magic?") which states that the CIA relied on Subud members, as well as Muslims, to gain popular support for its coup against Sukarno.
* This article from Goldmine details how Roger McGuinn of the Byrds became a Subud member and changed his name.
* This article from 'Red Dirt' provides pointers to Subud’s suspected CIA connections.
* The well-established Cults.NZ website has an interesting entry on Subud, saying inter alia that this was "once a very secretive New Age cult" and now has "heavily New Age theology,...occult practices,...strongly self-contradictory teachings, and...risk of psychological damage"
No doubt there is more if one can be bothered to look. Testbed (talk) 06:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  More missing material