Talk:George Saitoti

message: I think after Saitoti's death the article needs some major rewording especially where tenses are concerned. Anyone else agree?212.49.88.98 (talk) 08:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Rewording

message: I will revert your edit to the above mentioned article because your opinion of the Kenyan media is highly irrelevant and also because the source I had cited was verifiable. The source met the established wikipedia criteria for identifying reliable sources. Please remember wikipedia encourages constructive factual dialogue when it comes to editing conflicts.Thuralt (talk) 16:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: My opinion, which does not refer specifically to Kenyan media but to media in general, is not just my opinion but demonstrable and highly relevant fact. "Reliable" sources have repeatedly copied material, including vandalism, from Wikipedia. This happens especially with obituaries. I will thus revert your edit. Mewulwe (talk) 19:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I fail to see how your opinion is a "relevant" fact and even if in any case it is, the source provided is, as I said, verifiable and reliable and you should only remove it if it can be irrefutably proven to be biased or otherwise unreliable. It is seen in the article's history that you reverted good faith edits without clear reasons and are attempting to do so now. This is quite suspect. I will, however, assume that your actions are in good faith and look for other sources but should there be none I will ultimately be forced to revert your edits.Thuralt (talk) 20:54, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Mewulwe, Thuralt asked me to comment here. You are correct that news sources can copy Wikipedia--it happens all of the time. However, what is your evidence that it happened here? What is your evidence that the news source did not do it's own independent fact checking? You cannot simply make an assertion that the information was copied from WP without evidence; unless you can produce that, the information can be included as reliable sourced. So if Thuralt re-adds it, and you continue to disagree, I'm afraid you'll need to take the matter to the reliable sources noticeboard and see if uninvolved editors want to weigh in on the matter. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't assert that it was copied, I assert it is likely that it was. The evidence is as usual: no pre-Wikipedia source for a birth date of a politician who has been prominent for decades, then suddenly when the person dies the date from Wikipedia appears in all the obituaries. Seems common sense then that the burden of proof lies on those who want to include the date. They just have to find a source dating from before May 2012. Mewulwe (talk) 23:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm...interesting objection; if the coverage is universally after our date, that may be a good indication. The best place to solve this would be WP:RSN; if i have time i'll take it there, but either of you may want to do it if you want an answer faster (it could be more than a week before i get to it). Qwyrxian (talk) 02:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a valid concern, Mewulwe, but it doesn't irrefutably prove the information was copied from wikipedia. If that is the case, then many other sources would be excluded simply because they might be copied from wikipedia. That line of thought seems spurious, at best. Yes, the burden of evidence, which I have asked you to empirically disprove as reliable, lies with me but one editor alone cannot just decide to declare a source unreliable especially on a might be premise. That would be blatant gaming. There could be any number of reasons why the article's subject's birth date wasn't cited and sourced beforehand but that doesn't imply in the future that editors can't add sources just because it was done after the death of the subject and thus might be copied from wikipedia.Thuralt (talk) 03:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Might be" is quite enough. If the earliest available source for any information is Wikipedia itself, it shouldn't be used because any reference would be potentially circular. Mewulwe (talk) 04:06, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have confirmed from the mother and his siblings on the ACTUAL year of birth. Its 1945. I was working (still i am) working in the Secretariat that he was establishing. i have it in good authority now. Thanks.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karanja.moses (talk • contribs) 12:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The year is not in dispute, only the month and day. If you added those on personal knowledge that you can't document, it's not useful, since anybody could say that. Perhaps if his relatives or the secretariat have a website, and the date is published there, that would be a credible source. Mewulwe (talk) 15:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Oh, and why did you just change the year to 1944 when you just said it's 1945? Mewulwe (talk) 15:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have edited that date back to 1945, I included a source in my edit summary, I think that was just a "bubble moment", there doesn't seem to be any controversy over the year of birth, here is another source, from the other Kenyan state news service, near the end mentions he was 66, born in 44 would make him 67. --  Despayre  tête-à-tête 03:08, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I have re-added the original birth date reference as a result of this discussion. If anyone comes across better sources please update the article accordingly. As a matter of etiquette, discuss before reverting this edit.Thuralt (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Why do you think this is noteworthy to mention? You can find dozens of sources, but the fact that they all date from after the death while there are none from before, only bolsters the theory that they all derive from Wikipedia. Mewulwe (talk) 18:56, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

text: I think the above source is a suitable RS plus it seems far-fetched to argue that every other wikipedia post dated source is a mirror. It is worthy of mention for the same reason as other biographical articles' birth dates - encyclopedic knowledge.Thuralt (talk) 11:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: So now you think that even Reuters is using Wikipedia for their research? This is crossing the bounds of credulity for me. There are no conflicting dates. Reuters is definitely an RS source, as was the last one, that's notable. Most of the dozens you refer to are not RS. The sources I've referred to all pass WP:V standards as well. Do you have any reason to believe that this date is wrong? Any reason at all? And I'll just add, that while for you and I, Wikipedia is a go-to source of much information, I suspect in the course of your average day, it's very easy for you to find 20 people that have never been here, it is *not* the fountain of knowledge for all of humanity that we sometimes think it is, let's not inflate ourselves too much here. And just to save you typing it out again, I've already stated several times that it's *possible* the date came from here, but I find it neither probable, nor the arguments for it convincing, that it *is* so. Let's assume a little AGF on the part of both the National Kenyan News Agencies, and Reuters, (who's entire existence depends on quality reporting), no? --  Despayre  tête-à-tête 19:21, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Reuters is reliable for reporting of original events, not for background information which, even if it doesn't take it directly from Wikipedia, it would readily copy from some other media which did (like perhaps the Kenyan news agency in this case). And apparently I have to type out again that it doesn't even have to be highly probable, the reasonable possibility is enough. Mewulwe (talk) 20:01, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: "Reuters is reliable for reporting of original events, not for background information", please prove this, somehow, other than citing your opinion as fact. And you can type out your "reasonable possibility" theory as often as you like, I don't buy it, and it's not what the policy says, and beyond that, I don't think it's the *most* reasonable possibility either. --  Despayre  tête-à-tête 21:34, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't prove it any more than you can prove the opposite. As for it being a reasonable possibility, I thought you had conceded this, it is in any case not a theory, but obvious fact. That this should keep it out of the article (and it doesn't even have to be the *most* reasonable possibility) is not a theory either but my opinion, which seems rather self-evident to me, but which you obviously disagree with precisely because "it's not what the policy says". You have not made any other, common-sense case to keep a possibly circular information just because it is 60% (or whatever your estimation is) likely to be not circular. Mewulwe (talk) 03:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

text: Additionally, at the end of 15 minutes of live coverage of his funeral, there is a graphic thrown up, again with the same date, I don't believe that his birthdate wasn't mentioned at the funeral, I just don't happen to be able to understand that language, but I'm sure the reporter does, and I would think (again using Occam's Razor) that if the date she heard was not the date she was using, she would likely correct that, I don't see any reason to think that even *if* she got the date from WP in the first place, that this reporter is just plain incompetent even in the face of knowing a different "correct" date (of which *none* have ever been found). --  Despayre  tête-à-tête 19:33, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very easily possible that his birthdate was not mentioned at the funeral, if it was not common knowledge. It is common for Africans of his age to not even know their own birthdate, and in his case, there is the possibility that he deliberately obscured his own origin along with his ethnicity (he was a Kikuyu passing himself off as a Masai). Mewulwe (talk) 07:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I would agree that it is 'common for Africans of his age to not even know their own birthdate'. I was born in Kenya (but know my own birthdate!). Wizzy…☎ 08:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Question for my own edification for Wizzy, do Kenyans that don't know their actual birthdate not celebrate birthdays, or do they assign some kind of "good enough" date? --  Despayre  tête-à-tête 14:19, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe birthday celebrations are a 'white' thing ? I do not know. Wizzy…☎ 08:00, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: That didn't really answer my question. Are you saying that you don't celebrate your birthday, and that's normal among Kenyans? Is that some kind of response to the fact that some (many?) don't know their own birthdate? --  Despayre  tête-à-tête 15:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am white, british colonial. What I do is not significant. It is a fact that many native black Kenyans do not consider the day of the year they are born to be greatly significant, or did not at the time when they were born, or did not have access to a western calendar at that time, and thus could not mark it accurately. In the 1920s 1930s in rural africa the sun rose, and it set. There was a rainy season and a harvest time. There was no birthday. Wizzy…☎ 08:07, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Does that kind of thinking for Kenyans cut across all social classes, Rich, poor, etc? Or is that primarily a poor, or suburban/countryside, issue? So then even now, those born back then just don't celebrate their birthdays at all? --  Despayre  tête-à-tête 13:58, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't generalise, but I would guess that rural / non-christian is an indicator. And - if you don't know your birthday, you can't get it back ... I don't know if they invent one. Places like Hungary have a Name day which is more 'celebrated' than a birthday. I don't know people who don't have a birthday, so I cannot comment. Wizzy…☎ 14:53, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

text: I've watched the live coverage of his burial and it so happens his birth date wasn't mentioned. Whether or not Africans of his age, for whatever reason, conceal their age/origin is extremely subjective and substantiates little.Thuralt (talk) 11:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth Date Sourcing 

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