Talk:Heroin/Archive 1

message: While heroin is a dangerous drug, since it is a central nervous system depressant, it is the lack of available quality information, lack of quality control and infected syringes, which can transmit diseases such as AIDS, and hepatitis that cause the most trouble for heroin users. The money which can be made in supplying heroin addicts encourages a continuous supply, and the need to finance purchases generates considerable property crime.
Critics of drug prohibition contend that since addiction can be treated, primarily by counseling and methadone substitution, most of the suffering surrounding heroin is indirectly caused by prohibition, not by the drug itself. Others argue that legalising drug use, to the level of tobacco and alcohol, will eliminate the organized crime associated with it.
This section is POV, has no counterpoint, and is segued into from a more factual (presumably) topic.  I moved the text here to let someone else deal with it. 192.249.47.11 16:41, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The offending sentence has been removed. What is the justification for this page having "disputed neutrality"? -- AdamH 16:04, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV comment 

message: The first paragraph of "History" doesn't make sense, and I don't have the chemical knowledge to fix it. This section is very unclear, and doesn't even make grammatical sense:
: He boiled anhydrous morphine alkaloid with acetic anhydride over a stove for several hours and produced a compound that he called tetra acetyl morphine (morphine with 3 acetyl groups, a different, weaker form of acetylated morphine.) we now make diacetylmorphine, a more potent form of acetylated morphine. The compound was sent to F.M. Pierce of Owens College, Manchester, for analysis. He reported the following to Wright.
Even given the factor of two that can be off in acetyl prefixes (eg tetraacetyl- could be the same thing as diacetyl-), where does the 3 come in? And the "we now make" sounds completely wrong. --AlexChurchill 18:01, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
CRA Wright called it 'tetra-acetylmorphine', but it was a mistake. Axl 14:57, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confusion over di / 3 / tetra, and "we now make" 

message: Heroin is a controlled substance
Legal matters tend to be local to jurisdictions. I'd think that heroin is a controlled substance in all jurisdictions, but I am not sure of it. David.Monniaux 10:34, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal matters 

message: Adding and removing. Removing and adding... Is it about heroin? Lyrics suggest so, movie makes it even clearer. Do we agree?
--Zealander 19:18, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Comfortably Numb" by Pink Floyd

message: In regards to the Nine Inch Nails song "Hurt" in the list of "Heroin inspired artistic works", is there any evidence to suggest the song has anything to do with heroin?  I'm a fairly large fan of the band and have never heard H come up at all.
Is there any evidence to prove me wrong?
Cheers
MrHate 06:53, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)
I guess not, I'll remove it MrHate
The needle tears a hole / The old familiar sting is almost certainly a reference to heroin.  It implies habitual intravenous drug use, and the remainder of the song suggests that the substance of choice in this case is heroin.
--Dachannien 00:58, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  NIN - Hurt? 

message: once again i implore that pictures be placed in this article. Content is very important, but a drug article without multiple visual examples of said drug is not a drug article. I have e-mailed erowid with no reply yet (only a week ago or so) asking for permission to use their images on wikipedia. I hope we can eventually do so, as it will create higher quality, more aesthetically pleasing articles. Lockeownzj00 18:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Content on erowid is generally not free for use here or available under a suitable license. Virtually all images are either copyright their original photographers or erowid.org, and free use is explicitly denied on their copyright page () unless prior permission is granted. --Bk0 21:27, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

text: There are excellent images on the DEA web site. David.Monniaux 08:45, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erowid pictures 

message: When discussing heroin addiction, there are frequent references to the practice of preparing the drug in a spoon over a lighter. Maybe this should be discussed. David.Monniaux 08:25, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modus operandi 

message: It would be nice to have a couple of paragraph in the article that name typical doses used by addicts, lethal dose, and average market prices in civilized countries like United States. --Itinerant1 06:07, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Price and dosage

message: I'm curious to know if there is a direct effect on the teeth from long-term heroin use. While I've heard that dental rot is caused chiefly from the general lack of preventative care and junk food consumption exhibited by herion users, I have also heard that the drug itself (even in the pure form) has some direct effect on the teeth, causing them to turn black. Or, is this caused by non-heroin additives or contaminants used in preparing the drug for illicit street sales? Any dentists or doctors care to chime in? --NightMonkey 08:56, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
Opiates themselfes have no pharmacological effect on teeth or oral hygiene. This is supported by lifelong non-drug scene users - physicians and medical staff are probably the largest group of them. Cacycle 14:07, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Dental effects?

message: This article is missing the point in a way.  Heroin is an incredibly efficacious analgesic.
You might list pain relief in the "Direct short and long term effects of heroin use" table.
:Maybe a nice little topic to add to this article is an answer to the question of why it is rarely used medicinally. It always seemed to me that original policy to fight its recreational use made it to be unused medically, even though it might be a better alternative to morphine. Peoplesunionpro 22:58, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's efficacy as an analgesic is exactly equal to that of morphine. Its effects are manifested through deacetylation into morphine in the brain (see prodrug). The main difference is in heroin's greater therapeutic index due to the increase in quantitative potency. So for opioid tolerant patients it is a somewhat safer alternative to morphine, but its analgesic efficacy is no different. Fentanyl is typically used in such situations in modern medicine. --Bk0 23:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I recently had kidney stones, and being a junkie, the percocet they gave me at the hospital was useless.  I had IV morphine and IV heroin at my disposal at home, and for that much pain I was in your, you can bet your bottom dollar I chose the heroin over the morphine until the pain went away.  I am not disagreeing with you, simply stating my experience.  Also, they gave my dad (also opioid tolerance, moreso than myself) fentanyl-sublimaze when he busted his hip/femur, a custom batch of it that was probably stronger than what they've ever given some one in that family-and it still didn't do much for him...poor guy. --Azrayl 09:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

text: It's also missing the crucial historical link between 1910 (when it was last sold as a children's cough medicine) and 1914 (when it was outlawed in the US). We need a short paragraph along the lines of: "Although highly(?) effective as a cough-suppressant and pain-killer, it was determined by the U.S. DEA(?) in 1910(?) that, despite its marketing claims, Heroin was also highly addictive." --Tysto 15:06, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heroin as medicine 

message: Hey people, I guess you all know what my following question is going to be if you read the title.
Mia clearly Overdosed on Heroine, is it true that a shot of adrenalin straight into your heart can save your life that way?
causes an immediate return of consciousness and start of withdrawal symptoms when administered intraveneously.
usually treated with an opioid antagonist, such as naloxone (Narcan) or naltrexone
Doesn't say adrenalin anyway.
: Adrenalin (epinephrine) would not be used in real life in the way it was used in the movie. Naltrexone/naloxone causes near-instant revival and withdrawal symptoms when administered intravenously to overdose victims, ephinephrine would only be used in the event of cardiac arrest as part of standard CPR procedures. Still, once the patient's heart was beating again Narcan would still need to be administered if it hadn't been already. --Bk0 21:23, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Pulp fiction?

message: It seems the impact of Heroin on culture has now been well documented. Is there any reason why we cannot stick with the most notable examples, and move the remainder to a List of songs about heroin? JFW | T@lk 17:18, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not move them all? There's bound to be lots of conflict over what qualifies as notable enough for the main article, I'd just as soon see the whole thing moved somewhere else. --Bk0 23:56, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Entire Cultural influences section moved to Influence of Heroin on Popular Culture. It was big enough to warrant its own article, and the main Heroin article is now a more manageable length. --Bk0 17:23, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of songs etc 

message: I noticed that a reference to the taliban and poppy production was removed, as well as some information on GI heroin use in vietnam. why was this, and should it be replaced? Dreamer.redeemer 05:02, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  US and historical references 

message: Does anyone have sources for treatment with benzos?  It seems very peculiar to treat one addictive drug with another very addictive one, performing a substitution of sorts.  I'd also be interested to see information on comparative addictive properties of benzos.  Also, there has been recent discussion in the UK about the clinical trials for heroin and its use as a prescription drug for detox purposes: ,  and .  I think it was also legal in the UK for prescription back in the 70s, but I'm not sure since that was based on tertiary sources.  Nathan J. Yoder 19:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Benzo treatment and Medical use 

message: I think that in the article on heroin (and all other drugs respectively) one should replace the word ABUSE/ABUSER with USE or recreational use, respectively.
Per definitionem, ABUSE is the harmful use of a drug, which doesn't depend on if it's illegal or not, but only if it causes damage when used. And this is, in all cases except one in the heroin article, not the case. (neutral point of view)
Heroin itself causes no damage to the organs, but that should be known to someone who changes the wiki.
I've already done the change (with a few others) yesterday, but someone thought he'd better revert my changes, so I'm trying to convince you this way.
Also, according to newer research, heroin isn't only a prodrug because also the heroin itself docks on the µ-receptors, especially dimers and trimers of opioid-receptors play a role in that.
:This follows with the abuse/use point above. I don't think terms like addict should be used to simply describe "user". ie
::"Though "speedballs" (when injected) or "moonrocks" (when smoked) are a popular mix of the two drugs used among addicts..."
:Not being an addict in no way precludes someone from engaging in certain activities, as in the speedball example above -- Papaver 02:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use or abuse 

message: Heroin is currently categorized as both a schedule I and schedule II drug.  Is that true? If so, it's probably worth some explanation. Samw 04:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's scedule I only.  See: http://www.dea.gov/pubs/scheduling.html  Samw 20:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That's only true in the US. I believe heroin is classified as Schedule II internationally, some countries (the UK and perhaps others) allow heroin for medical use. 
It is Schedule 1. Heroin is used medically in UK, but it is not "schedule I" because the UK does not have a numbered schedule system.
--Bk0 (Talk) 23:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Actually there are numbered schedules in UK law; the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 divides into the familiar class A, B or C, relating to legal issues surrounding misuse, but the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001 divides drugs into five numbered schedules, relating to e.g. requirements to keep records, safe custody etc. Diamorphine is schedule 2. (see http://www.rpsgb.org/pdfs/shipmaninqrep4respapp1.pdf) PeteThePill 22:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Schedule I or II? 

message: Is it just my browser, or do the floating Bayer images on the left hand side overlap the text for anyone else? It looks fine for me in Internet Explorer, but in Firefox and Opera the images overlap the text. -Dawson 22:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image Float 

message: This paragraph here:
"The origins of the present international illegal heroin trade can be traced back to the forcible imposition of the opium trade on China by Britain in the late 1700s. The opium trade sparked the two Opium Wars that resulted in a series of Unequal Treaties that ceded Hong Kong to Britain in mid 19th century. Later in the 20th century, Chinese triad gangs would eventually come to play a major role in the heroin trade, most of which are based in Hong Kong and Southern China."
Although my history of the Opium trade is spotty, this paragraph does not provide me with any connection as to how the Opium wars and their subsequent treaties in the early 19th century had anything to do with the Chinese Triad gangs of the late 20th century. It simply jumps 150 years from the first statement to the last, sounding rather preachy the whole way. The only thing the Opium trade has in common with today's heroin trade is that they were both opiates. The opium trade and the heroin trade were carried by completely different means. The Opium trade was supported by national governments whereas the heroin trade is illegal and is distributed by underground criminal organizations. In this paragraph it sounds like another problem that someone has decided to attribute to the 19th century imperialism. - Anonymous 14:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: Coming as it does after the paragraph on British medical uses, the paragraph on Shipman is unclear.  I suggest either removing, relocating, or at the least clarifying where Shipman was from. Evan Donovan 03:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Shipman paragraph

message: While this article is generally very good, I notice that there is a lot of assertions made about the heroin black market and illegal users that provides no sources. A lot of the 'common knowledge' about illegal drugs is very inaccurate and as such I think we need to start insisting on sources for any statements and chop anything that doesn't get sourced. Ashmoo 06:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rumour & Inaccuracies

message: I've rewritten the section on the history of illegal trafficing. The version I replaced had several flaws. First, it confused the illegal trade in opium (including the opium wars) with the illegal trade in heroin. While they are certainly related issues, the illegal trade in heroin developed in a totally different way. Second, it depended too much on McCoy's narrative. I've seperated out McCoy's narrative from a more NPOV discussion of the development of the heroin trade internationally.  
For sources, see the timeline at . The timeline there gets several details right that this article currently has wrong. Specifically, people misunderstand the nature of the harrison act in the US and how that related to the development of the illegal trade.
I would not mind if someone weaved a more NPOV version of the McCoy content into the main history section, but whoever does it should try to carefully seperate the history McCoy presents from the political thesis he develops in the book. I dont think its wrong for the political thesis to be on the page, but it should be there to compliment the actual history of the trade.168.127.0.51 18:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  history of the illegal trade 

message: the problem of heroin-induced leukoencephalopathy needs to be discussed in this article.
there is information at heroinhelper here: http://www.heroinhelper.com/user/health/leukoencephalopathy.shtml
also there are various news stories to be found on google news or elsewhere.
apparently the disease effects only those who ingest heroin by means of smoking because of an uncommon adulterant that is activated by heating.
Harlequence 10:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  heroin-induced leukoencephalopathy 

message: "Heroin is also widely and illegally used as a powerful and addictive drug that produces intense euphoria, which often disappears with increasing tolerance. It is thought that heroin's popularity with recreational users, compared to morphine or other opiates, comes from its somewhat different perceived effects[5]. This in turn comes from its high lipid solubility provided by the two acetyl groups, resulting in a very rapid penetration of the blood-brain barrier after use."
Wouldn't the acetyl groups increase aqueous solubility instead of lipid solubility because of free electron pairs on the oxygen atoms?
:No, because the acetyl groups mask alcohol groups which contribute to aqueous solubility through hydrogen bonding. Esters are, in general, less soluble in water than comparable alcohols. --Ed (Edgar181) 20:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solubility? 

message: Article states: "Afraid of the possible side effects of aspirin, Bayer registered heroin (probably from heroisch, German for heroic, chosen because in field studies people using the medicine felt "heroic""
Actually I thought the origin of the name came from the fact that it was the "Heroine" which was supposed to cure other addictions, e.g. morphine, cocaine, etc.? This is why sometimes you will see people spell the drug (incorrectly) as "heroine"... ? - Abscissa 14:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origin of the word "Heroin" 

message: I've searched this article, and nowhere does it mention the damage that heroin is doing. It seems to be missing a lot of statistics such as the number of people killed by heroin in the past few years, how many take it in the U.S., how big a portion of crime it is, the economic damage, etc. Could any of you put some statistics on the drug? Standing as it is, we don't know whether 10 people or a million people have died from heroin in the past year.Hadoren 05:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless there are global statistics available, I don't think it is appropriate to insert a whole lot of domestic American statistics. This is meant to be an international article. Perhaps a new, separate article, eg "Heroin in the US," could be created if there is a need for us to publish those kinds of statistics. But I am very strongly against making this article American-centric. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 10:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you that this article shouldn't be American-centric - it's already too focused on America as it is. But the problem still remains that you don't know anything about how much economic and social damage heroin does. For example, there's a gigantic section about overdosing. But it never says how many people die from overdoses or what the chance of dying is. Another example is about people going into rehab, and how the withdrawal symptoms make it so difficult. But it never says what percentage of people relapse or how many. It's a choice between these two evils, and I'd choose to have more information. Hadoren 07:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cost 

message: This is found under the heading about side effects "It is yummy and makes me feel good, also good with coke" i tried to edit the page, but it wouldn't let me.  Didn't know how else to get rid of it PharmerJess 20:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing this part "It is yummy and makes me feel good, also good with coke" 

message: Substituted at 20:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment