Talk:Indian martial arts/Archive 4

message: wow, so I'm gone for a day and all of this happens.  Jeez.  Look Freedom Skies... the problem with  your view is that it is not held by the vast majority of historians and professors out there.  This is very similar to the P.N. Oak "debate" over the Taj Mahal being a Vedic temple instead of a muslim one, in which there really was no debate... there are P.N. Oak followers and then there's the rest of the academic community on Indian History... You will find very few academic scholars out there that will follow your train of thought and believe that a legend of Bodhdiharma equals fact.  In your article you even mention that the Bodhidharma tale is a legend, so how can you state that as fact or even mention it as possible fact?  Further, your use of the religious indian textbooks and the mythological stories are out of context.  You can't use religious textbooks that describe one god-king fighting another god-king (i'm sorry if this sounds insulting to you - but most of the protagonists in these religious textbooks were kings and they were described as reincarnations of gods.) only in general terms and then using that as the birth of indian martial arts.  You even agreed that the religious texts only describe wrestling and archery in general terms with no description of anything that approaches martial arts.  In the end, you can have your views on the history of indian martial arts, but you must allow the rest of us to edit and add to the article to allow for a balanced view... You can't just delete our additions to the article at whim...Kennethtennyson 15:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: wow

message: Waiting for a reply from our 20 something year old devoted boxer Freedom skies.  Unfortunately, with the number of POV nationalists running around the web, I don't think that this page will ever be unlocked.  Kennethtennyson 19:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: waiting

message: The trip took longer then expected, and the incessent rains did'nt really help all that much either.
As for the replies,
wow, so I'm gone for a day and all of this happens. Jeez. Look Freedom Skies... the problem with your view is that it is not held by the vast majority of historians and professors out there.
The thing with my point of view is that it is officialy endorsed by institutions which played a major part in the development of martial arts themselves, really sorry I missed your Kenny-is-the-ultimate-authority-on-the-opinion-of-vast-majority-of-profs award, would love to see a picture of you with the trophy though.
This is very similar to the P.N. Oak "debate" over the Taj Mahal being a Vedic temple instead of a muslim one, in which there really was no debate... there are P.N. Oak followers and then there's the rest of the academic community on Indian History
The downfall of legitimate argument comes with the drawing of parallels, my family has a background in international diplomacy and the one thing which one never actually does in serious arguments is deviate from the central issue and draw paralles, in parallels one always cites his actions as being comparable to a historically heroic incident and the opposition is always compared to incidents of stupidity or such. Don't draw parallels, stick to the issue of why won't you let me mention what the Shaolin says ? ? ?
You will find very few academic scholars out there that will follow your train of thought and believe that a legend of Bodhdiharma equals fact.
In case you missed my what I've been trying to scream all this while, I'm not citing random authors praised by some Chinese newspaper or such, that would be plain stupid. I'm citing directly from the source, the official ones. The authors have varying point of views and DO NOT either agree on any one school of thought or authoritatively trace back the origin of relevant martial arts, in which case we have to assume that the official versions of institutions, which have played such an instrumental role in the development of martial arts are THE authoritative source.
You can't use religious textbooks that describe one god-king fighting another god-king (i'm sorry if this sounds insulting to you - but most of the protagonists in these religious textbooks were kings and they were described as reincarnations of gods.)
The text book in question is called the Ramayana, from which I have'nt taken one sentence or mention, except one image caption that Lord Hanuman is worshiped by the wrestlers in India, which is true. Furthermore, your knowledge is severely limited, it seems, since there was no "God King fighting God king", there was just one "God King" fighting the demons.
About Alex Doss
Agreed, the mention of Doss can go , that means that the part dealing with Doss name goes and the mention of IMA on the arts stays. 
In fact, I request cowman to delete the Alex Doss, President of the Tamil Sangam at San Diego State University, claims India to be a founding influence for the development of martial arts [5] such as Bando, Lethwei, Muay Thai (kickboxing), Bersilat, Silambam, Pentjak Silat , Kali , Escrima and Dumog (wrestling) citing that these arts developed either in Indianized kingdoms or in kingdoms having very close ties with ancient India. portion even before I come up with the alternative, which should take about three days.
This would be in the intrest of the users who read the article as it comes up in the internet searches.
About Stanley E. Henning, Matsuda Ryuchi and Tang Hao
The random historians have their own personal opinons, which are not endorsed by the official ones. 
Citing random authors writing books in which no one disputes them does not change the outlook of either the Shaolin.
Try living with that.
Waiting for a reply from our 20 something year old devoted boxer Freedom skies. Unfortunately, with the number of POV nationalists running around the web, I don't think that this page will ever be unlocked. 
My intrest is in the maintainence and publication of a good article on IMA, unlike the one you wrote. and not in any POV thing.
Tasks that I will do as soon as I find enough time"
I've just come back, here are some tasks that will be done ASAP (somehwere in the next three days).
*Will compile a database of websites mentioning India and the influence of Indian physical culture on martial arts, though I know that most of the people will reject it as random or such, but it will be done to show the fact that this train of thought is subscribed not only by the official authorities but many institutions in general, and in conclusion is a widespread one in addition of being an official one.
*Will get more official citations.
*Will provide a rewriting suggestion for the Doss article, this will be backed up by official citations by credible sources and not by random authors.Freedom skies 04:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sorry for the delay