Talk:Labours of Hercules

message: The title of the article refers to "Hercules", but Heracles is used throughout, and the category uses Herakles. Is there a good reason for this? I propose one is chosen, and used throughout, with notes indicating the other names/spellings. 129.120.244.99 05:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Consistency

message: Should "Labours" be spelled in British fashion? Haiduc 04:58, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's the author's choice.  We just have to be consistent throughout an article.  I was inconsistent in the external link only because the linked page itself uses the American spelling. —Triskaideka 17:03, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And why not? I didn't realise Wikipedia was American only :) 195.157.52.65 (talk) 14:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Labours/labors

message: It is explained at the top of the article that Hercules is the Roman name for Heracles.  Thereafter both names are used in the article.  The line quoted uses both names in the context of the same plot.
I think this is confusing.
Tsingi (talk) 17:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: There is awkward mixing of Hercules/Heracles throughout the article. Surely it's better to be consistent, especially within the same section.124.37.83.250 (talk) 01:04, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hercules/Heracles 

message: Is this article perhaps too heavily weighted in its content on the zodiac?  I know quite a bit about Greek mythology, but I've never seen so much (if any) on the 12 labors dedicated to the Zodiac.  It is possible I just overlooked it, but then again I've been of the impression that the zodiac and astrology were not very important to the Ancient Greeks, that they were really  of greater importance to the Romans.--MS
Astrology and astronomy were pretty much the same thing in ancient times. Many many myths originate from astronomical observations, either as a deliberate metaphor, attempt to understand the constellations as gods, or just an invented story to go with them that god a bit carried away. E.g. the tale of Cassiopea is intrinsically connected to the stars. W.r.t. the twelve labours, their superficial complexity can be understood simply as an elaborate description of the sun's path as it crosses the sky. 
It is certainly true that in classical times (usually around the 400BC - 200BC era) that the greek culture was quite elaborate and was not so interested in simple things such as astronomy, but the tale of Herakles' twelve labours goes back many centuries before that, in much earlier times, e.g. when Hecate and Hyacinth were foreign gods, and those who told the myth of Herakles were only just arriving on the pelopennese (spelling is probably wrong), displacing the Perseus culture. Time is an important factor in understanding greek myths, and greek religion; they were not static but evolved greatly over the centuries, and the end result can be quite distinct from the starting point. ~~~~ 22:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zodiac 

message: I wouldn't build too heavily on an interpretation that found Argos the "capital" of Arcadia. I think a hyperlinked list of the individual labours, at the very least, belongs at Heracles. It's all too easy to detect the imngredients of a list and cannibalize an article to make a "new" one, leaving an incomplete article behind (cf. Trocadero) --Wetman 03:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Confusing [[Argolid]] with [[Arcadia]]

message: I have changed the name of Hercules from Herakles to Heracles, since Herakles was linking to a computer programme that plays othello. Hope no one minds :) - Lamuk69 (talk) 10:20, 03 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Herakles

message: The first reference to an era was when 6th century BC was used. This usage persisted for some time - it was the favoured usage of the original editors. Only latterly did someone introduce the BCE usage. Therefore I am reverting to the orginal preference. Here is the first usage   Arcturus 10:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 04:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Era usage 

message: :Add  * Support  or  * Oppose  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
*Support as nom. See "Discussion" for results of google searches. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: Is it the Golden Stag or the Golden Hind?  I've seen it as the golden stag, not hind. I'm thinking it depends on what source you use. Rђαηα (talk) 00:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stag or Hind? 

message: Albert Pike, in Magnum Opus, (XVIIII...13) gives a solar interpretation to the Labors of Herakles, giving one labor for each month in the solar year. This is probably akin to the Zodiac argument above. I'm not one to vouch for Pike's scholarship, but at least here's a reference.
-- 13:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Solar Interpretation 

message: I'm curious as to what he was performing penance for -- some sort of specific sins or just general?  Xyad (talk) 18:46, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Penance for What?

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thread_title: File:Herculean effort.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: The section "Erymanthian Boar" mainly talks about Hercules meeting the centaur Pholus and what happens after, not the actual labor itself.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinzhang27 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to be bold and fix it. Ckruschke (talk) 16:35, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Irrelevant Details 

message: The article seems to prefer Heracles over Hercules so why doesn't the title? 82.132.228.222 (talk) 00:48, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree on the title but more than moving I propose relabeling. ICE77 (talk) 00:27, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to Labours of Heracles? 

message: "Pythia" is the Delphic, not some cute sounding "Pythoness". Apollo killed the Python, son of Gaia, thereby making the Oracle (the place; Oracle the person; Oracle the answer), his. In respect of Apollo's mom, the Delphic Oracle keeps the title Pythia.
These articles will be eliminated by schools for bibliographic citing, as long as Wiki's pages are via concensus, instead of peer-review by people who have the degree; not by those whose feelings, beliefs, and opinions have nothing to do with reality of empirical evidence.
"Pythoness", WTF?!
108.23.140.221 (talk) 03:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm struggling to see your point. If you have a suggested edit to the page, rather than a general complaint, please either state it specifically here or be bold and make the change yourself. Ckruschke (talk) 18:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I too find the noisy indignation puzzling, but I'll tentatively offer an explanation: some older sources (such as the 19th-century public-domain sources that were used more often in Wikipedia's early days), call her "the Pythoness", presumably to render the gender of the title "the Pythian", which can refer also to Apollo. Word-endings in Greek would distinguish between the feminine Pythian (the oracle) and the masculine Pythian (Apollo); English does not, unless one resorts to the faintly archaic "Pythoness". "Apollo's mom" was Leto, and he was born at Delos. The article, however, needs work. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Names, Titles, Places

message: Should this article have a In popular culture section? If so, should this be included? LOL!
* 
-- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:09, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  The 12 Labours of Putin 

message: Hey all!  In looking at the page's history, there seems to be a slow-mo edit war as to whether the head that Hercules cut off with the golden sword was immortal or not.  In the paragraph directly above this statement, it indicates the Hydra's one weakness was that it had one mortal head - which makes more sense than its weakness being it has one immortal head.  I just changed the text back to read he cut of its one mortal head; but I'm happy to discuss in case my interpretation is incorrect.  If that's the case, we should clarify the text somewhere as this apparently is a source of confusion for quite a few.  Thank you! 12.10.219.222 (talk) 16:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Second labour: Lernaean Hydra 

message: 1. The titles of this article should be Heracles and not Hercules. The Romans borrowed from the Greeks so the Greeks have precedence.
2a. Peisander is mentioned as one of the sources and the article in Italian on the writer (Pisandro di Camiro) mentions that only fragments of his work survive (two by Aristophanes and one by Stobaeus). This information should be added to this article.
2b. A very important source that provides the entire description of the labors of Heracles that is not mentioned is Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca) where the twelve labors are mentioned (2.4.12 to 2.5.12). Other sources are available and they should be mentioned.
3. The article says "Hercules tricked him by agreeing to remain in place of Atlas on condition that Atlas relieve him temporarily while Hercules adjusted his cloak" but Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.11) says it's a pad and not a cloak.
4. Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.4.12) says that Heracles mentions Tyrins where he would serve Eurystheus but after that he repeatedly refers to Mycenae when he meets Eurystheus. My understanding is that Tyrins and Mycenae were two different places so I see an inconsistency.
ICE77 (talk) 04:38, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Title, sources, tricking Atlas and reference to Mycenae 

message: This article was interesting but also very annoying. The sourcing for this article is misleading or it’s totally lacking. Labours 3, 4 6, 9 and 10 have no sources whatsoever!
Most of my comments refer to sourcing and I will sound repetitive but I have a reason.
1. The article says "The establishment of a fixed cycle of twelve labours was attributed by the Greeks to an epic poem, now lost, written by Peisander, dated about 600 BC.[3]"
Perseus, at the page http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=2:chapter=37&highlight=labors, says "Peisander wrote a poem on the labors of Heracles. His date is uncertain, but perhaps he flourished about 645 B.C."
The missing citation should be replaced with an actual link with more accurate chronological information.
2. “Driven mad by Hera (queen of the gods), Heracles slew his sons by his wife Megara.[4]”
This is not always true. In fact the account of Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.4.12) does not specifically say Megara was hurt or killed.
3. “Eurystheus originally ordered Heracles to perform ten labours”.
This is only true for Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.1 to 2.5.12). Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 11.3 to 26-4) and Hyginus (Fabulae, 30) list 12 labours without explaining that Eurystheus did not recognized two of them.
In addition, Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 9.5) specifically states that the 12 labours have been imposed on Heracles before he was even born and, therefore, they were not something that did not have anything to do with the fit of madness that Hera caused on Heracles.
4. “As they survive, the labours of Heracles are not recounted in any single place, but must be reassembled from many sources.”
This is not true at all and it’s pure blasphemy. In fact, I found at least 3 sources for the labours of Heracles: Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 11.3 to 26-4), Hyginus (Fabulae, 30) and Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.1 to 2.5.12). All the labours, 10 or 12 depending on the sources, are listed in the same place and, in some cases, narrated in great detail.
This article clearly follows the sequence of Pseudo-Apollodorus so this can be inaccurare unless mentioned clearly. It can be confusing if you read multiple sources and compare them (like I did).
5. “Although he was supposed to perform only ten labours, this assistance led to two labours being disqualified”.
Idem as 3 above.
6a. “Heracles wandered the area until he came to the town of Cleonae. There he met a boy who said that if Heracles slew the Nemean lion and returned alive within thirty days, the town would sacrifice a lion to Zeus, but if he did not return within thirty days or he died, the boy would sacrifice himself to Zeus.”
What is the source for the 30 days story?
6b. “Another version claims that he met Molorchos, a shepherd who had lost his son to the lion, saying that if he came back within thirty days, a ram would be sacrificed to Zeus. If he did not return within thirty days, it would be sacrificed to the dead Heracles as a mourning offering.”
What is the “another version” that is mentioned?
6c The section “it would be sacrificed to the dead Heracles as a mourning offering” does not make any sense and needs to be rewritten.
7. “Others say that he shot arrows at it, eventually shooting it in the unarmored mouth. After slaying the lion, he tried to skin it with a knife from his belt, but failed. He then tried sharpening the knife with a stone and even tried with the stone itself. Finally, Athena, noticing the hero's plight, told Heracles to use one of the lion's own claws to skin the pelt. Others say that Heracles' armor was, in fact, the hide of the lion of Cithaeron.”
What are the sources for the “others” at the beginning and at the end of this section?
8. The Lernean Hydra had 9 or 100 heads depending on the source.
9. “He fired flaming arrows into the Hydra's lair, the spring of Amymone, a deep cave that it only came out of to terrorize neighboring villages.[8]”
This sentence does not make sense and needs to be revised.
10. “Eurystheus ordered him to capture the Ceryneian Hind, which was so fast that it could outrun an arrow.”
What is the source for the above?
11. “In some versions, he captured the hind while it slept … In other versions, he encountered Artemis in her temple … Yet another version claims that Heracles trapped the Hind with an arrow between its forelegs.”.
What are the versions in question?
12. “By some accounts, the fourth labour was to bring the fearsome Erymanthian Boar”.
That is the case for Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.4). This should be added to the text. The fourth labour for Diodorus Siculus and Hyginus was the hind/stage.
13. “One version states that a stray arrow hit Chiron as well.”
Which version?
14. “the eagle, continued its torture on Chiron, so Heracles shot it dead with an arrow ... However, this tale contradicts the fact that Chiron later taught Achilles.”
What are the sources for the above?
15. “Heracles had visited Chiron to gain advice on how to catch the Boar, and Chiron had told him to drive it into thick snow”.
I do not recall coming across a source that talks about snow. What is the source?
16. This article seems to present a recurring theme: Eurystheus gets frightened at the completion of a labout and hides in a pithos. What is the source for that claim?
17. In the section labeled “Fifth: Augean stables” “Heracles returned, slew Augeas, and gave his kingdom to Phyleus. Heracles then founded the Olympic Games.”
The only time the Olympic Games were mentioned in the 3 sources I read were in Bibliotheca historica (Book IV 14.1-4) by Pseudo-Apollodorus and this happened between labours 7 and 8.
18. “The sixth labour was to defeat the Stymphalian birds, man-eating birds with beaks of bronze and sharp metallic feathers they could launch at their victim.”
What’s the source for these “man-eating” “bronze-beaked” “metallic feathery” birds?
19. “Theseus would later sacrifice the bull to Athena and/or Apollo.”
I read 5 sources on Theseus: Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 55.5-61.7), Hyginus (Fabulae, 37-43 and 178), Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.1.1-E.1.10), Plutarch (Life of Theseus, III [3]-XXII) and Pausanias (Description of Greece, 1.27.7-1.24.1).
According to Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 59.6) and Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XIV) the bull is sacrificed to Apollo. According to Pausanias (Description of Greece, 1.27.10) “It is said that Theseus sacrificed the bull of Marathon to the goddess” but the name of the goddess is not provided. One would assume that it could be Athena but we cannot come to that conclusion.
Therefore, the above should add the sources I listed that talk about the sacrifice and remove Athena (unless a source on Athena is provided).
20. “In one version of the story, Heracles brought a number of youths to help him. They took the mares, called Podargos ("swift-footed"), Lampon ("the shining"), Xanthos ("the blond"), and Deinos ("the terrible"),[12] and were chased by Diomedes and his men.“
What is the original source of the story and the source that provides the names of each mare?
21. “Heracles left his favoured companion, Abderus, in charge of them while he fought Diomedes, and found out that the boy was eaten.”
What’s the source?
22. “In another version, Heracles stayed awake so that he didn't have his throat cut by Diomedes in the night”.
What’s the version?
23. “Both versions have eating making the horses calmer”.
What are the versions in question?
24. “In some versions, they were allowed to roam freely around Argos, having become permanently calm. In others, Eurystheus ordered the horses taken to Olympus to be sacrificed to Zeus, but Zeus refused them, and sent wolves, lions, and bears to kill them.”
What are the sources for “some versions” and “others”?
25. The first 3 paragraphs of “Ninth: Belt of Hippolyta” are coming from Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.9) and the source should be added to the article.
Interestingly, at the end of the ninth labour, according to Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV) Hercules did not obtain the girdle of Hippolytê (16.1) but the one of her sister Melanippê (16.4).
26. “In Roman versions of the narrative, Heracles drove the Cattle over the Aventine Hill on the future site of Rome. The giant Cacus, who lived there, stole some of the Cattle as Heracles slept, making the Cattle walk backwards so that they left no trail, a repetition of the trick of the young Hermes. According to some versions, Heracles drove his remaining cattle past the cave, where Cacus had hidden the stolen animals, and they began calling out to each other. In other versions, Cacus' sister Caca told Heracles where he was. Heracles then killed Cacus, and set up an altar on the spot, later the site of Rome's Forum Boarium (the cattle market).”
What are the “Roman versions”, the “some versions” and the “other versions”?
27a. The first 3 paragraphs, the first sentence of the 4th paragraph and the 5th paragraph of “Tenth: Cattle of Geryon” are coming from Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.10) and the source should be added to the article.
27b. “The sun-god Helios "in admiration of his courage" gave Heracles the golden chariot Helios used to sail across the sea from west to east each night.”
Pseudo-Apollodorus does not refer to a “golden chariot” but to a goblet. If there is a source for the “golden chariot” I would like to know what it is.
28. “After Heracles completed the first ten labours, Eurystheus gave him two more”.
As I previously commented, this is only true for Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.1 to 2.5.12). Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 11.3 to 26-4) and Hyginus (Fabulae, 30) list 12 labours without explaining that Eurystheus did not recognized two of them.
29. Reference 18 says: “In some versions of the tale, Hercules was directed to ask Prometheus. As payment, he freed Prometheus from his daily torture. This tale is more usually found as part of the story of the Erymanthian Boar, since it is associated with Chiron choosing to forgo immortality and taking Prometheus' place.”
What is the version of the tale?
30. “When Atlas returned, he decided that he did not want to take the heavens back, and instead offered to deliver the apples himself but Heracles tricked him by agreeing to remain in place of Atlas on condition that Atlas relieve him temporarily while Heracles adjusted his cloak.”
Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.11) talks about a “pad” and not a “cloak”. If there is a source for the “cloak” I would like to know what it is.
31. “One tradition tells of snakes coiling around their legs then turning into stone; another that Hades feigned hospitality and prepared a feast inviting them to sit”.
What are the 2 traditions above?
32. The “Aftermath” section provides 3 stories for Heracles and the Argonauts. 2 of the 3 are unsourced.
33. Finally, I do not understand why this article should use Hercules instead of Heracles. We are talking primarily about Greek mythology so it should be Heracles and not Hercules.
ICE77 (talk) 06:23, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comments and questions 

message: On this page, a lot of the images of the labors are really badly watermarked. However, on Wikipedia Commons, I found high-quality unwatermarked pictures by a deleted user "Haumart" (contributions here), with full citations as well. Is there any way the images can be redirected?
Speakercrab (talk) 17:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fixing watermarked images 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the . —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion 

message: Is there a reason for the page's title being "Labours of Hercules" instead of "Labours of Heracles"? "Heracles" is used throughout the article, and the two main sources for the twelve labours are Diodorus Siculus and Apollodorus, who both write in Greek, and so refer to "Heracles". From what I can tell, all (or almost all) modern scholarly sources on the topic refer to them as the "labours of Heracles", or at least contain them in their discussions of Heracles, as opposed to their treatments of the Roman Hercules. – Michael Aurel (talk) 10:51, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: My sense is that the proper noun "Labours of Hercules" (or "Labors of Hercules") is more commonly known than the alternatives (just as Hercules is more commonly known than Heracles). But since this article is about the twelve labours of Heracles,  I would support a page move. Paul August ☎ 14:15, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: That makes sense. As "Labours of Hercules" is not really accurate as a description of the mythological events themselves, though, I will propose a move. – Michael Aurel (talk) 21:52, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Hercules"? 

message: I think someone has griefed the background information page with the phrase "iPhone 15 Pro max." 2601:681:4C00:9CC0:197E:495A:6E19:1F30 (talk) 19:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Iphone 15 Pro max"?