Talk:Kwanzaa/Archive 2

message: How anyone can track what's going on on this page is beyond me -- people need to sign their edits/comments with four tildes. Jim62sch 00:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

message: This page links to the disambiguation page Corn, but I'm not sure which sense is intended.  Can you help me?  Thanks.  — Pekinensis 19:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it's not strange.  Kwanzaa is an African-American observance -- not an African one.  Further, upwards of the 80+ percentile of all African Americans claimed Native American ancestry in the late 1970s.  It's not as "strange" as some might think.  deeceevoice 21:48, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: How it is 'claim' ? One is born with certain ancestry, that cannot be claimed or changed. Does an 80+ of African American have (partial) Native American ancestry, has it been proven by some genetic research and/or birth records ?
I myself am Cherokee and Cado.  Virtually every African American I know has Native American ancestry.  What?  We gotta prove it to u? Don't hold your breath. *x* deeceevoice 22:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

text: See corn meal, then lets close this maize schism once and for all. / Ezeu 04:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corn 

message: Its clear that Karenga is a convicted felon (some combination of kidnapping/torture I believe).   What some editors are in essence claiming is that this is less important than his current employer.   I don't know what grounds there are for that conclusion, but it is not something that is at all obvious.   If yall are having a hard time coming up with convincing arguments, thats probably a good indication that this is fair to include.
Discussion won't go far with the behavior of some editors:
You're an idiot. Who gives a @#U* what you think?  (deeceevoice)
--69.110.47.109 01:49, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about Kwanzaa. Too much focus on Karenga as it is. There is an article about Karenga already. --Ezeu 02:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

text: Agreed -- good edit  --69.110.9.207 17:42, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, good job, Ezeu. I don't know why Deeceevoice reverted it. I'd encourage him and others to discuss rather than revert again. Jonathunder 18:44, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  karenga/felon 

message: In an America in dire need of UNIFICATION, where blacks are being thrust back into the ghetto, back into a depraved culture by hip-hop and other cultural poisons, a holiday to separate one race from another is the last thing we want. How do we expect to combat racism when we're drawing such a clear race line?
Worse yet as already stated, the holiday has no relevance to anything. It celebrates the primitive past. If blacks want something culturally relevant to them they have RAMADAN!
++++++++++++++++
absolute rubbish! you got the nerve to talk about cultural poisons when whites parade around with the confederate flag and look the other way when black folks had their votes stolen in florida and complain about a observance that has nothing to do with whites? its not the separation issues, its the fact that whites dont own or control this holiday that burns you up, deal with it.
Face it yourself - this is not a holiday meant todivide people or to draw a race line. Anyone who wants to celebrate the race neutral qualities that Kwanzaa seeks to focus on, is welcome to do so. Besides - don't you yet understand it? We ALL come from Africa anyways, first of all, and Ramadaan is as culturally African as Christianity is, and as Kwanzaa is for rhar matter. THe point is to celebrate, to contemplate, and to act in ways that are positive and have a positive impact on the individual as well as community. - SL--71.250.88.213 04:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Face it

message: Couldn't we have a picture of a kinara or a kwanzaa celebration so to give people a visual clue?
Also could we somehow tie in the colors of the candles with the 7 Principles and give examples as to what it is meant by them, rather than the definitions? The definitions are fine but there's no examples as to what is meant by them. 
I know that I am new here but I would like to be able to contribute to the understanding of Kwanzaa and give people a chance to experience the holiday thru the eyes of a celebrant. 
Thank you for your attention.--hawk eyes 03:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Could we have ??? 

message: It seems anyone who wants to have anything to do with this article is biased towards one of the extreme POVs. Does anyone know about this subject who isn't biased? -- Boothman 16:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes. Those who attempt to describe Kwanzaa are overwhelmed by editors who want to push certain points. It is disturbing that even certain admins make unexplained edits. --Ezeu 17:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias

message: "Jon Stewart ... gave Bill the Kwanzaa gift of saying that he hated Christmas
". Seems like someone inserted his/her POV into that statement. I doubt that Stewart said "I hereby give you the Kwanzaa gift of Christmas hatred." Silently to myself: what do I know, maybe he did. Never know with them Americans --Ezeu 20:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is wrong with this? I'd like to remove the whole anecdote. 

message: I don't think it is necessary.  It says that Kwanzaa is growing but only 1.6 percent of the population follows the holiday.  That is too miniscule a number to use as any evidence of growth, especially without any comparison figure.  Also the last sentence, seems to just be an opinion without any factual support.  Suggest revert.Ramsquire 21:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: * I don't think we should compare the Kwanzaa article to the Christmas or Hannukah ones.  Kwanzaa has history of about 30 years compared to Christmas's almost 1500 and Hanukah's 2200.  that's probably the biggest reason for the disparity.  Also, let's not forget that Christmas and Hanukah also tie into religions, whereas Kwanzaa does not.Ramsquire 21:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *... and that most of those who celebrate Kwanzaa also celebrate Christmas – that Kwanzaa is not an either/or and neither/nor celebration. --Ezeu 21:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

text: Hey Jared, it's not good practice to say things like something is "a small, sorry excuse for a wikipedia article".  There's an example similar to that on a policy/guideline page explaining how *not* to behave.  The article is quite short, and that may make it more POV than it should be.  The Christmas article, for example, has no qualms about the history of Christmas (even though many may not like to hear its pagan origins), but it looks like detail on Karenga is not wanted by some editors here.   I know the next few sentences might be hard to swallow, but here goes...perhaps in a longer article the Karenga details and criticisms wouldn't be so controversial, when we've only got a few paragraphs mentioning the criminal history of the founder is probably a little too negative.  Kwanzaa is a peaceful holiday, after all.  To make a contrived and extreme analogy, it would be pretty lame to have a Christmas article that was half a page long but managed to mentioned the Inquisitions.  If the article grows in all directions I think the Karenga info becomes more relevant.   Of course, it would be unfair to ask *you* to try to do all the expansion legwork, and the editors that you are in conflict with should also strive to expand the article.  -Justforasecond 02:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Last Paragraph.... 

message: *I have been trying to beef up the article and make it into an actual, respectable looking Wikipedia entry on my user page.  Most of the work so far has involved maoving the content into appropriate sections and such.  I assume that the "Influences" section I have had will be the most controversial.  Please visit it here: User:TurtleTurtle/work --~ Jared ~ 15:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: *Well done TurtleTurtle/Jared. I agree with you that this article is in dire need of expansion. But it is counter-productive to be unmannerly – here and in edit summaries. There is enough combativeness as it is (especially considering the fulltime vandalism/revert war that has characterized the last couple of weeks around here). Lets not pick fights, but do like Coca-Cola and pretend that these are blissfully exultant days where humanhood and the urge to love and respect ones wiki-neighbours reigns supreme. Heri ya Krismasi na Mwaka Mpya. --Ezeu 19:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Working on the Article 

message: Anybody know where to find an image of christmas decorations and kwanzaa decorationss side-by-side like the article describes?  That would be a good addition to the article.  --~ Jared ~ 16:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I still have been unable to find images of Christmas and Kwanzaa side-by-side.  Since there is no source, and I have never heard of this phenomenon before, I was wondering if all that stuff is even true.  Please add an acceptable source or the information will be duly deleted.  --~ Jared ~ 15:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christmas Kwanzaa Together Image 

message: *There is one unlinked mention of Karenga in the article, without any information as to his relevance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cfpresley (talk • contribs) .
:*Nevermind, fixed already Cfpresley 19:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is Karenga? 

message: *This article should probably contain an "opinions" or "criticisms" section (there seems to be a need for it). That way, the lead info can explain what Kwanzaa is, and the controversies can be dealt with in a specific section. --Ezeu 23:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  See the "deleted bullcrap criticisms" section above.  You could probably find the old critiques there, but it looks like there needs to be some discussion on the topic.   Some editors find it POV to include the criticisms at all, which makes *some* sense.   Every article could have a criticisms section -- after all, cars use too much gas, buses are smelly,  helicopters are noisy and crash too often, bikes are slow and you get wet riding one, horses poop and are expensive, running shoes don't look great around the office, etc, but you don't see criticisms on the running shoes page.  I think criticism of Kwanzaa is spread wide enough that the section is warranted, but I understand why others might not think so.  -Justforasecond 01:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

text: *No, helicopters dont crash often enough !! I mean helicopters shouldnt .. whatever –  anyway, editors at "Kwanzaa" couldnt be less prone to reach a consensus than those at "Jesus", "Kerry" or "Palestine".--Ezeu 02:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The word you're looking for is notablilty: Is the critism notable, frequent, etc?--Tznkai 17:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticism

message: Can someone give me a timeline on the creation of Kwanzaa?
In refrece to the above nattering on Felonosity, Karenga was evidently not marxist, secular humanist, or a convincted felon at the time of its creation.--Tznkai 16:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm going with the 1966 date and flagging this article unverified until we track this down.--Tznkai 17:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  History! 

message: I'm not editing the page but came here to look for answers to these questions:
* Does the specific celebration of Kwanzaa, as opposed to the themes suggested by its observance, have any authentic African roots?
* What groups or corporations are promoting its recognition with producing objects or media for its celebration, or holding public events related to its celebration?
* How many people are estimated to privately observe Kwanzaa?
I'm suggesting that providing answers to these questions might be more useful than disputing its origins. patsw 17:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia:Reference desk if you're asking for answers, thanks for the suggestions (I think) if you're not.--Tznkai 17:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: For people who might be interested in researching the answers to the questions I posed above: The first New York Times reference is Ron Karenga as Ron "Karenga" Everett on March 20, 1966.  Under the name Kwanza, it appears in the publication on December 24, 1971.  The first reference to Kwanzaa (with this precise spelling) is December 16, 1982.  It's possible that Kwanzaa does have an origin in 1966, but the reference in the New York Times points to an origin (or at least its dispersion to New York) as many as 4 or 5 years later. patsw 18:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Authentic or contrived? 

message: The following needs verification
*Kwanzaa's start date. This shouldn't be that hard to find.
:"Official" version found here http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/origins1.html Tznkai 17:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Its origin and development is somewhat confusing given the Everett/Karenga and Kwanza/Kwanzaa name changes in the historical record, but the December 24,1971 New York Times account, Spirit of [sic] Kwanza, which I've read on their historical database contains the elements of the celebration which define it today.  That places the origin in 1971 or earlier. patsw 18:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I stand corrected -- if it was in the NY Times in 1971 its probably good enough just to mention the 66 creation date. -Justforasecond 21:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: One down, now for the marxist stuff. And for the claims that kwanzaa is a branch of african hertiage. I don't eactly see an unbroken line here. We need to work on some organizational issues. Briefly:
#History of Kwanzaa
#Celebration of Kwanzaa
#Observance of Kwanzaa
#Public reaction to Kwanzaa
#Kwanzaa and Kalinda (if someone is (trying to) using Kwanzaa as an expansion of ideolagy, its notable
Anyone else have suggestions?--Tznkai 22:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  In need of verification: 

message: Yeah, I guess that was dumb of me.  I was just trying to improve the page, I do think we need more images.  Getting images isn't exactly my specialy though.  It'd be nice for someone else to figure something out, but I don't really feel like I should be asking people that.  If anyone editins actually celebrates kwanzaa it would be pretty cool to take a picture of a display of yours and upload it.  I'm sure other people can come up with better ideas.  The article certainly is coming along well now and I'm becoming happier with it, as I'm sure everyone else involved is.  --~ Jared ~ 00:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry About the Copy Vio 

message: Was Kwanzaa invented in 1975 or 1966?  The article seems to be ambiguous. -- BAxelrod 22:35, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date miss-match