Talk:Characters in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

message: The article gives away fairly important plot points; I dunno if someone could put a disclaimer?--Pyg 01:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There used to be one on each LoZ page. Most were removed. Jaxad0127 02:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Just a small note

message: There are certian characters that have never been mentioned before in any Zelda franchise, so I have renoved them. The characters removed are as follows:
Arianna
Mitaka
Nito
Julian
Xavior
Valian
They were all added by the IP 70.161.245.204.
:Yes, they are fake.KrytenKoro 04:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fan Characters?

message: I just removed a sentence that declared Tatl to be "more annoying than Navi" for POV reasons.  On the other hand, I think it may be worth noting the fan culture aspect to the fairies, in that many people -do- find them annoying.  I'd have added this myself, except all my attempts at wording it came out awkward or otherwise bad.  Anyone care to help?  (For the record, I personally found Navi to be far more annoying than Tatl.  I could ignore Tatl's bell jingle, but Navi's "Hey Listen!" get on my nerves REALLY fast.  I also though Tatl had more personality with the whole "rude" thing.  But that's one man's personal opinion.) Fieari July 3, 2005 23:44 (UTC)
:I agree. Tatl over Navi any day. :-) Deco 4 July 2005 00:04 (UTC)
::Ah, bull. At least Navi wasn't a rude, pranskter little b!tch like Tatl.
Oh yeah Tatl is much less annoying but Navi will always hold a special place in my heart simply because i grew attached to her over the game.--NobleServent2 17:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What if we say some think Tatl is more anoying, while others think Navi is more so. Jaxad0127 17:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Its' not Navi in TPH, and Link didn't love Navi (she was a fricking fairy that left for no reason, and was ignored most of the time).KrytenKoro 04:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fairy annoyance

message: The twins and brothers of the Kokiri leads to this page but they're not mentioned. I thought perhaps we could mention them after Saria, if anyone wants to? Tyciol 18:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kokiri Twins and Know-It-All brothers

message: Since there's a relatively little amount of discussion for this page, I would guess that the article was primarily written by one person.  From what I've read, they seem to have done a very good job, so I give my complements to the person or people that wrote it. (edit: updated signature only) dt 20:50, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: It says in the Ruto section of the entry that Ruto is the only sage from OoT to have a counterpart in MM (Lulu).  I think it's pretty debatable as to whether or not Lulu is Ruto's counterpart, seeing as the two aren't as similar as any other counterparts between the two.  I would also think that Darunia would have a counterpart in the gray Goron ghost you get the Goron mask from, but I'm not sure.  What do you guys think of the whole Ruto/Lulu counterpart thing? Chris3145 23:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Termina Counterparts

message: Is the Hylian Loch a character? Isn't it technically a kind of fish? Saimdusan
Moreover, I have caught a 33 pound loach.  And the wording on the appearance of the loach is confusing ("before the rooster crows or the wolf howls.")
:So, dawn or dusk. Jaxad0127 19:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Hylian Loch, a Character?

message: *I believe Phantom Ganon should be split into a new article. It has appeared in multiple Zelda games, and has become a common boss. Bly1993 17:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Like the others that appear in many games (Link, Zelda, Jabu-Jabu, etc), just link to the LoZ characters page. Jaxad0127 17:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Non-notable. I'd suggest leaving it like it resides currently. -ZeroTalk 17:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Phantom Ganon

message: The various towns in The Adventure of Link were named AFTER the characters from OoT? Adventure of Link came out a clean 10 years before OoT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.120.234.80 (talk • contribs) 
:Its because OoT comes before AoL in the timeline. Jaxad0127 04:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The official position has always been that Ocarina is the first game in the series. So in other words, not speculation. Jeff Silvers 15:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

text: A timeline was mentioned by the creator and you can find it referenced as #9 on link's page71.65.34.160 09:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Umm... 

message: Hasn't Gohma appearend in enough games to merit her own page, with pictures of each incarnation? Just a thought. 64.230.23.81 22:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, since it's different in every incarnation - something like Dark Link, which, even though it's a different "person", is the same "thing", deserves its own page. Gohma, however, changes between crab, spider, scorpion, and worm/crab thing.KrytenKoro 04:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gohma 

message: "In the credits, he is seen sitting alone with the Zora King, while everyone else is celebrating at Lon Lon Ranch. This in itself is impossible, as if the Kokiris left their native forest they would turn into Skull Kids."
Sorry, but this information is incorrect. Kokiris will not turn into skull kids if they leave. They only turn into skull kids if they are lost in the Lost Woods for a long time. The only thing that was said when Kokiris leave Kokiri Forest is "they will die." The kid guarding the exit to Hyrule Field said that to Link when he tires to leave. I think this is more of a warning from the Deku tree that they may in fact die when they leave, not an actual sudden death as soon as you step foot out of the forest type thing. Anyways, they do ot turn into skull kids if they leave. --IRock70x7 13:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sorry, try again. 

message: I question the inclusion of these pronunciatons under the characters' names, since they assume that the Japanese pronunciations are correct for speakers of English. If we're supposed to pronounce Malon "Maron" because the Japanese do, are we supposed to say Zeruda (Zelda) and Rinku (Link), too? There are no official pronunciations for the game in English, and there is no reason to have these here unless they are explicitly the Japanese pronunciations. For example, Mido may have been "Meedo" when conceptualized by the Zelda team, but in the localized game, "Mido" is a real English name, pronounced the way it looks.
-
I took japansee this year in high school partly,all I learned was that midori is the name for the color green which would make sense since he is the leader of the whole forest(besides the tree....nevermind it died) and the fact that they all wear green. Just wondering if it helps, along with the facts of translation(besides the fact link cant talk)the makers probly intended it. On a side note im never returning the insurance money for the pots in his house...ever. 69.251.251.2 07:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciations 

message: "In Twilight Princess, which takes place several decades after Ocarina of Time, it is revealed that King Zora has died. This is revealed by the ghost of the Queen, who was killed by the game's villain Zant."
Ummm, I'm pretty sure those are two different King Zoras. By the time of Twilight Princess it would seem that most of the characters from Ocarina of Time are dead, so I don't see why the old King would have lasted that long (I have heard it's at least a full century after OoT). Furthermore, the OoT King's wife had already died in OoT, while Rutelia's husband died before her. I kind of doubt he'd have remarried. If, theoretically, the Zora lived that long, it wouldn't explain Ruto's absence, personally. So, umm, yeah, just because they're both Kings of the Zora doesn't mean they're the same guy Darien Shields 02:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that there's no reason to assume it's the same...after all, Ocarina of Time has King Zora XVI, so it's no secret that's the name of everyone (or at least many) on the Zora throne. Panserbjørn 04:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Well, to be perfectly honest, the Zora King in OoA lives over 400 years.KrytenKoro 04:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  King Zora 

message: It is stated on the page that Zelda is 17 years in the future, but I don't recall her age being mentioned anywhere in the game. Remove?
"and is subjected to the practices of brainwashing that Ganondorf has been intensely researching." - Nabooru
He did? I don't recall anything about that.
It is said Saria is one of the only four Kokiri to enter the Lost Woods. I know Fado and Mido did so too, but who's number 4? DreamingLady 13:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A few questions

message: Fado is not deserving to be on this page. Mainly, all of the stuff that's on this page is specualtion. If you can verify all of that, with an official source, then fine. Heck, her name's never even stated. Besides, she's not a main character.
I don't know if you read it, but except for ONE line in the article, nothing of it is speculation. And it isn't a big one either. Everything else is fact and only about her appearance/role in the game and a small oddity EVERYONE can see. I even removed any interpretation of it. Yes, I aknowledge the first two articles I wrote about her weren't decent, and I'm sorry for that, but I have heavily edited it before putting it back. And about her not being main enough....I wouldn't consider her less important than Link (Goron), King Zora or Ingo or even Jabu-Jabu. They also didn't have very big roles (or you'd have to consider blocking the path with your fat behind being a big role ^^). The reason I put her on the page in the first place is because both the article about TWW Fado and the Kokiri (and probably TP Fado once it is created) refer to her (not my work). So I guessed people would appreciate it if they could read something about her. I know I would've appreciated it when I noticed she apparently has a name. Fado always fascinated me for being different, but seemingly not being a Hylian or having anything to do with the story. Why's she different? Why does she keep talking about Mido in a way I can only reason they are siblings (or that she has a very scary crush on him)? Then, I searched for her on internet. There's hardly any real info about her, except her name's Fado (allthough I couldn't find the source for that piece of knowledge) and that most people who know a bit more about her think (know?) she's Mido's sis. Some small info can be found at http://zso.krahs-emag.com/ OOT beta A+B reversed, page 3. Anyway, I think she does deserve to be on the page(though I will await your response(s) before putting her back). Not because she's important to the story, but because she's the odd case. Why did Nintendo spend time on her if she doesn't fullfill any role worth of going through all the trouble? Why does she have a name so similar to another character she frequently refers too? Why did they decide to remove her in the adult timeline? Why did they put a character with the same name and from the same race in TWW, who happened to be the kind of sage Nintendo eventually decided NOT to put in OOT (same site, beta codes -> items). And a bit off track, didn't Nintendo promise more dungeons in the add-on and expand the story a little(search wikipedia for 64dd)? Note, I don't intend to put these questions (or their thousand-and-one possible answers) in Fado's article (except for that minor part about Mido). I'm just using it now to argue she does have enough background to deserve a place on the page.DreamingLady 10:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fado

message: It stated in the article that Link is not Darunia's son's official name. But, it is. Sure, his name will change depending on what the character names Link, but his official name is still Link. Just like how Link (the hero) can have his name changed by the player, but his official name is still Link, Darunia's son is the same.
Darunia's son and Link may share the same "official" name, but as the name will change at the character's option, Darunia's son technically has no official name.  "Link" as the official name of the hero character in the Zelda series is established and has been so from day one.  Darunia's son is only in this game (as specifically stated) and is therefore subject to whatever name the player chooses. cocoapropo 21:40 9 Aug, 2007
:Actually, he's in Majora's Mask as well. And as "Link" is always the character's official name, then "Link of the Gorons" is the official name for this character. You can have a note that the character's name will change if the player gives themselves a different name, but "Link of the Gorons" is his name.KrytenKoro 14:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Darunia's Son

message: I have a bit of beef over the article stating that the towns were named after the sages. is there ANY sourcing for that, or is it just speculation.DurinsBane87 09:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zelda II town names 

message: "An old man in Kakariko Village describes a 'man with the eye of truth whose house stood where the well was', possibly referring to someone who later became Bongo Bongo."
I removed that because I believe that the line is merely a hint, informing the player where to find the "Eye of Truth", an item that allows players to see certain things which can't normally be seen(it's in a mini maze at the bottom of a well). I've played this game extensively and never found anything about the origin of the boss, besides the fact that it was imprisoned and later escaped, so I think it's just speculation. 
I also changed the word "cycloptic" to "cyclopean", because I think the latter is the proper adjective. ^-^ 
Adrael 07:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bongo Bongo's Origin 

message: I tryed to start going through the messages and delete the stuff thats too game guidey. For example, it isn't necesary to list how to defeat each character, or how to get this or that from each character. ANY help would be appreciatedDurinsBane87 22:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Game Guideness

message: I note the inconsistent use of 'she' and 'it' in the Queen Gohma section...personally I feel that the Queen honorific makes 'she' more appropriate. The same goes for King Dodongo. PJSaunders 23:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Royal personifications

message: Except possibly for Volvagia, who is a true character in the manga, none of these creatures are appropriate for this page. Since most of this info is a repetition of info on the Bosses page, I suggest that any non-redundant detail be moved there, and a simple
:See Bongo Bongo
replace it (obviously, tweak it for each boss).KrytenKoro 04:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Boss "characters" 

message: Ingo appears in Ocarina of Time and in Oracle of Seasons. Should Ingo be in the recurring character page instead? --80.195.190.235 06:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ingo 

message: This is retarted. Nearly every pic is nominated for deletion. Who's the moron with the stick up their ass that's doing this? 99.243.212.228 16:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe, instead of complaining, go insert the rationales for them?KrytenKoro 17:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion?

message: I was playing the game over again and a small paradox exists. Ganondorf got the Triforce of Power by stealing it after Link opens the Door of Time and pulls the Master Sword out right? Well without Link removing the sword and creating the pathway to the Triforce couldn't it have all been avoided? Kou Nurasaka 00:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not a paradox, though - Link never goes back and un-does letting Ganon in.KrytenKoro 06:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paradox 

message: :Image:Volvagiaoot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 23:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Volvagiaoot.jpg

message: :Image:Mido.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Mido.gif

message: :Image:Talon.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 04:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Talon.jpg

message: :Image:Malon2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 07:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Malon2.jpg

message: Lets start off with the sages being considered "main characters". They aren't. They are in very little scenes comparitively. There are 4 true main characters. The protagonist Link. The antagonist Ganondorf. The third tri-force holder, and the name character Zelda. And Link's sidekick Navi. Sages are important indeed but should not be featured in the main character section. Second do not bunch characters together, i can maybe see Great Deku Tree and Great Deku Sprout, but Malon and Talon? come on get real. Just leave everyone seperate. Now down to the big issue. The Boss characters. Why are they being removed? In my opinion in is a terrible idea. Since this game has very few characters with true names, i find it rediculous to remove 1/4-1/3 of the beings from the list, even if they do only have direct links. Obviously i can be persuaded a little, but At the same time don't expect me to just back down for no reason at all. Put out some solid facts on why you feel otherwise, and we can debate it here. --EveryDayJoe45 21:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Boss characters - because the project agreed that they simply aren't characters. Those who happen to be bosses and characters are given regular sections in the body, but just being a bigger monster does not make one a character. I mean, seriously, Morpha? When does that thing show one instant of characterization?Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent changes

message: http://www.zelda.com/universe/pedia/ ( .)
=====Flat & Sharp=====
::I can't find sources on the zeldapedia for Sharp and Flat, but here's what the game has. I'm sure the NP guides mention them too.
*Royal Composer Bros.
Sharp the Elder
R.I.P.
Royal Composer Bros.
Flat the Younger
R.I.P. 
I am one of the ghostly composer
brothers of Kakariko Village.
All the people in this village are
born to serve the Royal Family of
Hyrule.
We brothers also served the Royal
Family, and were assigned to
study the hereditary mystic
powers of the family.
Though we never could figure out
the power of the Triforce,
we had almost completed our
study of controlling time with the
tones of ocarinas.
Uh, I mean...
Actually, we did complete that
study!
We would have been famous, if
that hateful Ganondorf had not
tried to steal our results.
We could never let him reap the
fruits of our research!
That's why we gave our lives to
protect the secret. 
Are you the one who freed my
soul?
I served the Ikana Royal family.
I am the composer called Flat.
The songs connected to the Royal
Family that remain here were all
composed by my brother and I.
Oh...Sharp,
my dear brother.
He sold his soul to the devil and
was the one who locked me in
here...
You who do not fear the dead,
learn well the song that is
inscribed behind me...
And if you ever meet my brother,
I'd like you to inform him...
The thousand years of raindrops
summoned by my song are my
tears.
The thunder that strikes the earth
is my anger!
...I have made my request.
The thousand years of raindrops
summoned by my song are my
tears.
The thunder that strikes the earth
is my anger!
Here is written the song that
shall cleanse his cursed, black
soul.
::We could maybe give a passing mention of these in regards to the Ocarina or the series' music: Something like "Link learns his songs from a variety of characters, ranging from the ghostly Royal Composer Brothers, Flat & Sharp, to...", or explain how they studied the Ocarina for the Royal Family in a section about the OoT as an item. However, I agree that they don't merit any more than a sentence.
In regards to Sharp the Elder and Flat the Younger, information concerning these two composers can be found at http://www.zeldalegends.net/. In the left-hand margin, go to the Storyline heading then choose Game Storylines. In the next page, choose Oot (Ocarina of Time; of course). In the chapter entitled "Ganondorf's Schemes," you'll learn all of the insidious deeds he did to acquire knowledge of the Triforce. All of these events were done before actual game play. The Royal Composer Brothers are explained and all of this information is canonical. They themselves prove their story in the quotes you provided for all of us to digest. Thank you for that. Sadly, I cannot find any pictures of them in their deceased, Poe forms. Lastly, I wholeheartedly suggest that they should remain in the characters' list on this page. They provide background information regarding the mystical powers of the Ocarina. They also give more character development to Ganondorf. Although these before-the-story scenes are not seen "cinematically" in the game, the audience is given more clues into the demonic disposition of the game's primary antagonist. Please, let us keep them in the list. Zelda fans are notorious for wanting to know every conceivable detail regarding main characters. Secondary characters are sometimes third-person perspective witnesses to major story events. This may seem trivial to some, but it's important when telling and propelling a story. 
Dei Gratia, Elijah L. Luthor I (EmperadorElijah (talk) 03:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: zeldalegends.net is not a reliable source. The content you want to add is probably better located at the Zelda wiki at Wikia. While Zelda fans want to know an incredible level of detail about fictional elements, Wikipedia exists to give a broad overview of subjects without delving into minute details. Pagrashtak 16:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Compiled references

message: ::I can't find sources on the zeldapedia for Sharp and Flat, but here's what the game has. I'm sure the NP guides mention them too.
*Royal Composer Bros.
Sharp the Elder
R.I.P.
Royal Composer Bros.
Flat the Younger
R.I.P. 
I am one of the ghostly composer
brothers of Kakariko Village.
All the people in this village are
born to serve the Royal Family of
Hyrule.
We brothers also served the Royal
Family, and were assigned to
study the hereditary mystic
powers of the family.
Though we never could figure out
the power of the Triforce,
we had almost completed our
study of controlling time with the
tones of ocarinas.
Uh, I mean...
Actually, we did complete that
study!
We would have been famous, if
that hateful Ganondorf had not
tried to steal our results.
We could never let him reap the
fruits of our research!
That's why we gave our lives to
protect the secret. 
Are you the one who freed my
soul?
I served the Ikana Royal family.
I am the composer called Flat.
The songs connected to the Royal
Family that remain here were all
composed by my brother and I.
Oh...Sharp,
my dear brother.
He sold his soul to the devil and
was the one who locked me in
here...
You who do not fear the dead,
learn well the song that is
inscribed behind me...
And if you ever meet my brother,
I'd like you to inform him...
The thousand years of raindrops
summoned by my song are my
tears.
The thunder that strikes the earth
is my anger!
...I have made my request.
The thousand years of raindrops
summoned by my song are my
tears.
The thunder that strikes the earth
is my anger!
Here is written the song that
shall cleanse his cursed, black
soul.
::We could maybe give a passing mention of these in regards to the Ocarina or the series' music: Something like "Link learns his songs from a variety of characters, ranging from the ghostly Royal Composer Brothers, Flat & Sharp, to...", or explain how they studied the Ocarina for the Royal Family in a section about the OoT as an item. However, I agree that they don't merit any more than a sentence.
In regards to Sharp the Elder and Flat the Younger, information concerning these two composers can be found at http://www.zeldalegends.net/. In the left-hand margin, go to the Storyline heading then choose Game Storylines. In the next page, choose Oot (Ocarina of Time; of course). In the chapter entitled "Ganondorf's Schemes," you'll learn all of the insidious deeds he did to acquire knowledge of the Triforce. All of these events were done before actual game play. The Royal Composer Brothers are explained and all of this information is canonical. They themselves prove their story in the quotes you provided for all of us to digest. Thank you for that. Sadly, I cannot find any pictures of them in their deceased, Poe forms. Lastly, I wholeheartedly suggest that they should remain in the characters' list on this page. They provide background information regarding the mystical powers of the Ocarina. They also give more character development to Ganondorf. Although these before-the-story scenes are not seen "cinematically" in the game, the audience is given more clues into the demonic disposition of the game's primary antagonist. Please, let us keep them in the list. Zelda fans are notorious for wanting to know every conceivable detail regarding main characters. Secondary characters are sometimes third-person perspective witnesses to major story events. This may seem trivial to some, but it's important when telling and propelling a story. 
Dei Gratia, Elijah L. Luthor I (EmperadorElijah (talk) 03:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: zeldalegends.net is not a reliable source. The content you want to add is probably better located at the Zelda wiki at Wikia. While Zelda fans want to know an incredible level of detail about fictional elements, Wikipedia exists to give a broad overview of subjects without delving into minute details. Pagrashtak 16:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Flat & Sharp

message: How do these qualify as characters? From what I can remember, not a single one of these knights is named in the game or given a separate, distinct personality. Furthermore, no absolute definition of who constitutes this grouping has been provided. We can't merely invent arbitrary, collective definitions based on what we perceive, as it would constitute OR. Unlike the carpenters or Know-It-All Brothers, these knights are indefinitely numerous and have no set quantity or identities. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 11:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I can think of several that have sepearte personalities from generic soldiers: the one who you sell the Keaton Mask to, The clock soldier, the one guarding the gate to Hyrule Castle, the frustreated one who tells you to break the pots, and the one who dies in the back alley are some examples. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 20:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is exactly what I was saying about OR; these are just generic NPCs defined only by minor actions they do in the game, and exhibit no significance in the plot whatsoever and therefore no notability. We shouldn't include every minor character in the game just because they're there. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 21:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: We need to have start back up the reference section as a few above. Because although I understand what you are saying, I would say they are much more important to the plot then The Know-It-All Brothers. So just because they have official names they are more important? The one you give the Keaton Mask to, is important to the sub-plot. And the one in the building with all the pots has much conspiracy/theory surrounding him (I know this is not acceptable in Wikipedia, and I'm not saying we should add this info, I'm just saying he is more substancial than some on the list). And Speaking of that, I sort of think the Poe Collector is quite note-worthy as well. I may be at odds with some (possibly most) of you, but I think the page should be expanded rather than truncated, in order to give the most information possible. Should we add the girl chasing the chicken? no. But do I think there are some characters who are note-worthy that are not on the list? yes. The Knights for one. I think The Poe Collector as well. And I recently added the Goddesses (but I removed them after facing dissaproval). But in the end, I do not know how we will be able to reach a conclusion on this. We could start a straw poll, but chances are only you, me and KrytenKoro will vote, which will make it completely inneficient. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 23:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Really, the fundamental criteria for inclusion should be whether they are involved in the main plot, i.e. what is mentioned in the plot section of the main OoT article, and covered by substantial sources (more than just primary sources). Otherwise, they have no real-world significance. Characters such as the knights and the Poe Collector don't exactly have much influence on the plot (sure, there's one guard who lets Link through to Death Mountain, but that's extremely trivial), so they'll need real-world information, e.g. on development and reception, to establish notability. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 00:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand what you are saying, but getting Epona is a completely optional side quest, should we remove her as well? Now of course you are expected to get her, but it is not a necesity. So if you are going by the main plot the only characters really are Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Navi, Sheik, the Six Sages, Great Deku Tree, Link of the Gorons, Lord Jabu-Jabu, King Zora, Malon, Talon, and the Deku Sprout, Mido, Kaepora Gaebora, Volvagia, Koume and Kotake, Carpenters, Dampe, and I believe that is it. SO because the sun song is optional, Flat and Sharp can go. You can complete the game without ever meeting Ingo so he can go. Biggoron and Medigoron -- optional sidequests. Great Fairies, to my knowledge unneeded, but there may be a part where you are forced to make contact. The scarecrows can go. Running Man, Granny, and Know it all brothers are optional in meeting. The Skull Kid is part of a few sidequests, but like the others he is an optional character to meet. So as you can see many characters, though they have big presences, are only important to sub-plots. So if several knights are important to sub-plots but not the main game, why are they refused entry? I mean obviously the one you give the Keaton Mask to, is the main one in this case. But there is a lot about them. You have to sneek past them for one in order to get to Zelda. If you do not know the secret way around, you have to pay the one at the gate to let you into Hyrule Castle. Many have unique personalities from the others. They have many off-screen story arcs, such as losing to Ganondorf when he invades. I understand how you can be against them being added, but I personally think they are rather important. Sure sub-plots are not the main plot, but what makes the knights any less important then three generic Kokiri who teach you how to use the C buttons? And what makes the Keaton Knight any less important then the skull kid who you give the skull mask to? I understand your points, but I hope you see mine as well. If you are against expanding, say it. I understand that view point. Although I am for expanding, I can see how one could be for keeping it short and sweet. But I don't know. I gave in with the godesses because they are never truly in the game. I gave in with Queen Gohma because although she shows substancial importance to the story arc, she shows know persoanlity and is fully discussed in the Deku Tree section. But this one I really am for. There is just something about them that seems important to the story, and if you stripped the game of the knights, it would no longer be OoT. Where if you stripped the game of the Know it all brothers, I'm sure many would not even notice. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 02:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, the fundamental criteria is notability, of course; despite the fact that she is not strictly involved in the plot, Epona is generally a much more well-known character and is therefore more likely to have significant real-world coverage, in various forms, than characters like Flat and Sharp or the Keaton Mask knight. Really, though, instead of discussing which characters we think are suitable for inclusion, it would be more productive to prove their notability with sources. This article is completely devoid of sources at the moment. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 11:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I could be wrong anyway, maybe you do need Epona to get across the Gerudo Bridge, but I always thought you could use the longshot... I dont know I'm confused. But yeah we should start sourcing again. We all started it above, but everyone just stopped. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 21:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hylian Knights