Talk:Frank Buchman

message: This information about Buchman's ideas is very revealing. Like many people, I have been exposed to these ideas indirectly in the past as a result of seeking help with a drinking problem from Alcoholics Anonymous, an organisation which has a central aim of spreading Buchmanite beliefs and practices, but is disingenuous and evasive about their true origin and nature. Personally,I left this 'fellowship' in disgust at its dishonesty about its real agenda. I consider Buchman's teachings to be absolutely poisonous and I think it is a tragedy that they continue to have an influence by being disguised as a 'treatment' for alcoholism and sundry other problems. 
Andymart1yn 14:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Alcoholics Anonymous program has had the benefit of being studied and analyzed in several times peer-reviewed scientific journals, much of the research has been very positive: , , , , , , , . Of course, you can probably find more in the Wikipedia article. -- 128.138.64.147 17:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Rubbish links.  Most of those studies seem to show that people who attend alcoholics anonymous drink less (well, of course).  That is does not show that alcoholics anonymous is the cause of the decreased drinking.  If I, as a none alcoholic, wanted to drink, where would I go?  Not AA!!  Probably not to a Knitting club, either.  So should recovering alcoholics who imerse themselves in knitting be studied?  Because, if they are there all of the time, and not at the bar, I guarantee that their relapse outcomes would be improved.  One study even implies that AA has a 40%+ success rate.  What a total joke!!  Even the studies on the AA page do not show that!!!  82.19.66.37 19:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: This article is about Frank Buchman, not Alcoholics Anonymous, but there is a significant and Wikipedia/Buchman-relevant point in the Andymart1yn 14:49, 30 January 2007 diatribe above.  A key feature in the history of Frank Buchman, the Oxford Group, AA, Up With People, Moral Re-Armament, Initiatives of Change  and other spin-offs is the use of vagueness and undefinability as a disingenuous (or, arguably, sometimes actually deceptive) organizational tool.  This was one of Buchman's essential contributions.  He spoke of a scheduled "quiet time" as opposed to "prayer."  He always insisted that there really was no organization, nor "leader" nor "members," only some people with a shared understanding or approach who happened to meet.   Moral Re-Armament official doctrine was (is) that it had no members nor any official doctrine.  An ambiguity in the English word "met" has been used by Alcoholics Anonymous from the start, to say that its two founders "met" in a hotel bar.  That seems to have the "bumped into each other" meaning of "met," when in it was really a scheduled meeting of two Oxford Group members -- hence, yes, they "met" there.  In AA literature, Buchman's coy references to a vague "higher power" are used in preference to the Christian "God" to which he was referring.  The bland and uninformative name "The Oxford Group" exemplifies the method, as did the many later hard-to-trace name changes and organizational metamorphoses.  The organizations were not called churches.  The names "Initiatives of Change" and "Up With People" are similarly calculated to reveal nothing about their specific agenda or affiliations.  (Buchman saw himself as masterminding a semi-clandestine war of Christianity against Communism.)  Even today, very few AA, Al-Anon/Alateen and Up With People members have any idea that they are in fact following and espousing tenets of Buchmanism.  With proper citations, this aspect of Frank Buchman's organizational genius should be documented and included in the article. (Note: The same nebulousness methods were used by "The Finders" group in the Washington, D.C. area, in the 1970s-1990s, but that appears unrelated to Buchman.) MrDroopy 22:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An amusing example of Buchmanian calculated nebulousness is the first sentence of the current Alcoholics Anonymous Wikipedia page: "Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is an informal society for recovering alcoholics."  What "informal" society?  AA is demonstrably a fully formal legal network of organizations around the world owning property, enforcing its trademarks, etc.  MrDroopy 00:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Calculated nebulousness 

message: I think this article and discussion lack perspective and insight. Frank Buchman had nothing to do with Alcoholicss Anonymous directly. The Oxford Groups practiced a 6 step word of mouth type program in order to win people to Christ and change lives. He never wrote any AA literature and when Bill W the cofounder brought up the idea Frank's guidance was against it. If you want an accurate reference read the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous the first 164 pages and go through the steps if you want to give it a try. Then read For Sinners Only 'AJ Russel' and maybe check out On The Tail Of A Comet 'Garth Lean'. That might provide more accurate information to transpire to this article. The teachings and tenants of the Oxford group transpired into Alcoholics Anonymous directly, Bill W. himself admitted to that. There are no secrets to Alcoholics Anonymous and they don't own any property (aside from the General Service Office), they rent and are self supporting through their own contributions. They are a true democracy through an upside down pyramid where the collective conscience or group conscience matters the most which is formed by individuals. However I will note that just like any group of people there are many individuals from all walks of life so most definately some people are liars in there, but if you don't like it, you get to change it since it's a democracy. There is no requirement for membership except a desire to stop drinking, you don't have to believe as others believe. I also left this fellowship for my own reasons but by no means is it some conspiracy to get people to believe something for any reason. It's just a group of people who are trying to help themselves and in turn help others, nothing else is involved, people just want to get better. Millions have found their lives, themselves and a relationship with their highest ideals within the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, there's no need to win people to Christ or change people if they don't want to. There is really no alternative motive to Alcoholics Anonymous, an individual member most likely there is, but as a collective there isn't.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.192.176.30 (talk) 14:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  ??? 

message: I have added quite a bit of material to this article over the last week and produced what I think is a more balanced article.  Can we now remove the "Neutrality disputed" notice?Buberfan (talk) 02:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Still seems somewhat off balance to me. I might work on it a little later, but the internet here at Caux keeps on going down.  Asenine  13:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Ignore me, I was looking at two articles. This one seems fine in terms of neutralisy, removing notice now.  Asenine  14:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

text: The writer of the glowing bio was also personally connected to him and his movement.  It is therefore not an entirely reliable source, at least not without balance and confirmation from other sources. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 06:56, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality no longer disputed?

message: This reads like a hagiography. The article appears to have been written to create a powerful impression that Buchman achieved great wonders, rather than a more balanced view of a cult leader of the past. Most of the references are to a hagiographic biography by one of his cult's members; the equivalent to relying on Church Of Scientology biographies of L Ron Hubbard for facts.
Not impressed at all with this one, sorry to say. It's desperately in need of a "neutrality" tag.82.71.30.178 (talk) 20:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The writer of the glowing bio was also personally connected to him and his movement.  It is therefore not an entirely reliable source, at least not without balance and confirmation from other sources. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 06:56, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hagiography? 

message: This refs section is unnecessarily messy, large and repetitive.  All those citations to the same source (which isn't entirely reliable - see above) need to be redone with . — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 06:56, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Sourcing cleanup

message: The quotation from Buchman is too self-righteous and lengthy for the section about his "early life," he was 30 years old at the time for crying out loud.  It does lend itself to the charge of hagiography. AvocadosTheorem (talk) 18:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hagiography Indeed 

message: I read years go that Hitchcock based the Herbert Marshall character in Foreign Correspondent(1940) on his mistaken idea of Buchman - all love, love one another, and he turns out to be a Nazi sympathiser. I think it is in Truffaut's long interview with Hitchcock, but am not sure. If this view can be properly sourced, I think it should go in the article. 94.72.253.83 (talk) 17:57, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Alfred Hitchcock

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The biography used to reference large parts of the article was written by Garth Lean, who was an admirer and follower of Buchmann and the MRA movement. I doubt that it is reliable. Take for example the description of the situation in the German Ruhrgebiet in the late 1940s: "Moscow-led communists expected to gain control of the workers' councils as part of their plan to turn Germany into a communist state."
This is a caricature, to put it mildly: all communists are "led" by Moscow, i.e., unable to think or organize for themselves, and pursue a giant conspiracy aka world revolution, when Stalin's political strategy, in fact, pursued the opposite goal and put the interests of the Soviet Union first. Despite some quotes about Buchman's sometimes more nuanced stance, I think one should not rely on Lean's biography, when it comes to the description of historical events or situations. (Niemandsbucht (talk) 17:18, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biography of Buchman by Garth Lean - not realiable