Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink/Wines task force/Archive 1

message: Thanks for creating this project. I look forward to being a part of it. I do have one suggestion for the more wiki-code savvy. Can we have some sort Wiki-wine userbox for our pages? Agne 09:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask and ye shall receive!  EvilSuggestions 08:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Joy! It does exist!

message: I've looked through the Pinot Noir history and invited about 6 users to join the project and help get this article to FA. These were users who through looking at their other wine contributions, user page, and discussions appear to be interested in crafting great wine articles for Wikipedia. Hopefully a few of them will take the invite. :) I think I'll probably also take a look at the Sideways article for some interest Agne 10:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what I can contribute to that article (although I'm itching to pump up the Oregon section), but maybe when I have some spare time, being as how I live in the Willamette Valley, I might just be able to take some nice pictures of the wine itself and maybe of some bottles from key vineyards. EvilSuggestions 08:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Recruiting for Pinot Noir FA

message: I got some feedback from Hildanknight on the Good Articles Committee for some areas to start working on. Here are his comments
*The article does not have any external links. Please add external links to websites about Riesling, which will offer further reading beyond the scope of the article.
*The article also lacks references. 
*There may be slight POV issues with statements like "wine lovers of all experience can certainly enjoy the elegant complexity of this grape", "Riesling is one of the grape varieties considered to best express the terroir of the place that it is grown", "Several recent vintages of German Riesling have been regarded as exceptionally good" and "Riesling is a very versatile wine to have with food, because of its balance of sugar and notable acidity". 
*As a side note, there's a picture of the grape, but what about the wine?
Agne 10:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a to do list to the Riesling talk page, and put these suggestions in there.  EvilSuggestions 08:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Riesling to FA help

message: If any one in Sydney, Australia wants to take photos of bottles of wine for articles, let me know. I can provide the bottles but not the photography skills. Gsherry 03:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pictures

message: What is everyone's thought on including vintage info in articles about particular varietals? As a newbie, when I was expanding the Riesling article, I made it a point to try and mention a good vintage (at least in my own view) for each style of Riesling. As I matured as a Wikipedian, I realized how subjective that was. In doing research for sources I found mix bag reviews among critics on different vintages which leads me to rethink the value in including vintage info in the article at all. Does the value merit the time and effort it would take to properly source the vintage info? Agne 07:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion, it's really not something that should be in the article.  I wouldn't look to an encyclopedia for information on what wines to choose (WP is not a wine guide ;), but on history and general information about the varietal.   Then if the reader is interested they can go to other, more specific sources.    If there was something historic and truely noteworth about a vintage, I can see it being worth while, but simply saying that 2004 (for example) was a good year doesn't further the artical as an encyclopedia article.  The Bethling 07:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm echoing some of what The Bethling said, but I'd suggest that you rely on two of the key priciples of Wikipedia to guide you: is it verifiable and is it notable.  So, for verifiable, statements like "some people say 1997 was a good year for wine X" would be bad, but statements like "Wine Growing Region X had drier than normal weather in 1997, resulting in wines with a higher sugar concentration" can be verified against climate data, etc.  As for notable, I could see how vintage info could be notable for say, Château Lafite-Rothschild, but not so for say, Boone's Farm.  Or from the previous analogy, if Wine Growing Region X is the dominant producer of a particular wine style, then mentioning something that had a drastic affect on the wines in that region in a given year might be notable.  Also should mention the No Original Research policy, so if you can't find a reference somewhere else to back up a claim, it probably shouldn't be included.  --EvilSuggestions 16:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is not a wine guide. I like that. It has a nice ring to it and may need to be crafted into a more stated concept. As we expand Wikipedia's assortment of wine articles, I can very easily see the slide towards trying to make it a wine guide. I think I fell down that slope in my first expansion of the Riesling article. However, taste is very subjective--even with the "experts" and we could very easily stray over the line of original research if we tried to input information about vintages, expert scores and the like. Of course, I do agree that if a particular vintage is considered "historic" then that should be included but can any vintage in the last 50 or so years say with enough hinesight that it was a "historic vintage"?Agne 06:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Vintage info in articles

message: Over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Oregon, someone suggested the following task on their talk page.  Sounds like it's right up our alley:
Perhaps we need a List of Oregon Wineries in sections by appellation? There is already a :Category:Oregon wineries, but it's not very populated. Of course we will have to watch for making any of it sound like an advert... Katr67 14:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Oregon Wineries

message: I've created the category :Category:American Viticultural Areas, and populated it with several Oregon articles.  (Two real articles, and several redirects from smaller AVAs into their parent AVAs).  --EngineerScotty 20:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  AVA articles 

message: Currently we have a status quo where in articles about a Varietal Grape we also have information about the wine that comes from that grape. We do this oppose to having a two separate articles, one on the grape and the other on the wine. However a user on the Zinfandel page has noted (and editted to the affect) that the article is about the grape itself, not the wine. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Agne 21:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As the user being referred to here, perhaps I was being a bit unreasonable. I apologize. I will grant that the grape and the wine are inextricably linked; however, at the same time, the grape makes the wine, so when I want to know about a particular varietal, I am more curious about the grape itself, and where it came from, what it's related to, and so forth. I think it's appropriate to include words about the wine provided they're objective and avoid subjective winespeak jargon ("smooth" finish, "supple" tannins, etc.). I think we can all agree that subjectivity isn't appropriate in an encyclopedia. My comment that articles should be "about the grape itself, not the wine" was made in the context of including a picture of a bottle of a specific brand of wine; the picture didn't seem to fit. When Agne wrote that the purpose of the picture was to provide a visual break in an article full of text, I concluded that the picture should be replaced, which I did after writing about the research into Zinfandel's origins. Amatulic 00:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Varietal Grape Articles vs Varietal Wine

message: Am rather surprised that this hasn't been previously described on Wikipedia.  Please check for errors, blatant lies, and such. :) --EngineerScotty 06:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Created article [[Climate regions of California]] 

message: Amatulic's comment got me thinking about the overall quality of Wiki's article on the Varietal Grapes and how the topic of the grapes is really the starting point for all other wine related articles. I personally think it should be a priority to focus as a group on these articles first so that we have a solid base for extending into other articles. I see on other projects like Wiki project Baseball they have an info box rating quality scale for the articles. I think we should evaluate the quality of all our varietals and have a box listed on the Project Page with the current status of the articles so that we can mark it's progress. A worthwhile goal is to eventually get every grape variety to at least Good Article status, and maybe FA for some of the major ones. Afterall, they are the basis of everything that we know and love about wine. :) Agne 01:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Focus Varietal Grapes 

message: This is my personal opinion, I encourage everyone else in the group to take a look and chime with you views. I am starting with the Vitis Vinifera (Though I know I'm missing some that I can't remember). Eventually we can tackle the native North American grapes and hybrids. Note: What I'm listing as "Potential Good Article Candidate" is essentially anything above a stub status. As you'll tell there is different degrees of how close or far each article is to being an actual candidate. If we could codify some range, that would be helpful. Agne 03:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  One user's assesment of the current status of Varietal Grape Articles 

message: ==== Barbera ====
*Stub 
==== Cabernet Franc ====
*Stub 
==== Cabernet Sauvignon ====
*Potential Good Article Candidate
# Needs picture of actual grape clusters
# Needs expansion of each section under Around the World
# Needs more references
# Expand External Links section
# Has information about the wine's characteristics but needs more info about the grape (cultivation, terrior characteristics, etc}
==== Carmenère ====
*Stub - also issue with name since above link is currently only a redirect, despite being the grape's proper name
==== Cinsaut ====
*Stub
==== Dolcetto ====
*Stub
==== Gamay ====
*Stub
==== Grenache ====
*Stub
==== Malbec ====
*Stub
==== Merlot ====
*Stub-Amazingly so, considering how popular the grape is both as a Bordeaux and a Varietal. Someone needs to opening a bottle of Château Pétrus and get writing. :p
==== Mourvèdre ====
*Stub
==== Muscadine ====
* Some Muscadines are white wine grapes.
* Potential Good Article Candidate
# Needs correction on why it's sweet (the wineries add sugar to it!!)
# Needs more references
==== Nebbiolo ====
* Potential Good Article Candidate
# Needs a bit of cleanup, especially to wiki format
# A photo of the wine would be nice
# Needs expansion on info about the grape and wine
# Needs references
# Needs work to eliminate redlinks
==== Petite Sirah ====
* Stub
==== Petit Verdot ====
* Stub
==== Pinot Noir ====
* Potential Good Article Candidate (Eventually working to FA)
# Need to expand certain articles under areas of production such as Austria, Australia, Italy etc. Even under France and certainly Oregon more could be said. To get to FA status, we may need to develop more the Burgundy Wine & Oregon Wine sections relating to Pinot Noir in those articles to function as a content fork for this one.
# Needs more references & external links
==== Pinotage ====
* Potential Good Article Candidate
# Needs some photos
# Needs some NPOV work
# Need formating and section headings
# Needs References
==== Plavac Mali ====
*Stub
==== Sangiovese ====
*Stub
==== Syrah ====
* Potential Good Article Candidate
# Needs Photos
# Needs references and fact checking (i.e. Shiraz from Iran?) This would also help with NPOV
# Needs overall expansion, especially in detailing the differences between Syrah and Shiraz-which extends beyond just the name.
==== Tempranillo ====
*Stub
==== Touriga Nacional ====
*Stub
==== Zinfandel ====
* Potential Good Article Candidate (Eventually FA}
# Need a photo of the wine in glass
# Need to merge the Trivia information into the main article
# Needs a reference section
# Needs more information on the wine itself
Regarding trivia: Does the trivia section really need merging, or is removing more appropriate? I was the one who originally pulled those sentences out of the main article and created a "trivia" subheading to put them in, because I couldn't find a way to fit them anywhere else after my rather massive edit of the rest of that page. However, I don't think the trivia section adds anything of value. Amatulic 16:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Red Grapes

message: * Potential Good Article Candidate (Eventually FA}
# Need a photo of the wine in glass
# Need to merge the Trivia information into the main article
# Needs a reference section
# Needs more information on the wine itself
Regarding trivia: Does the trivia section really need merging, or is removing more appropriate? I was the one who originally pulled those sentences out of the main article and created a "trivia" subheading to put them in, because I couldn't find a way to fit them anywhere else after my rather massive edit of the rest of that page. However, I don't think the trivia section adds anything of value. Amatulic 16:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Zinfandel]] 

message: There is now a proposal to create a Wines template, to supersede both the Major Styles and Grape Varieties templates. Please see the discussion on its talk page. --Portnadler 16:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wines Template