Talk:Grace O'Malley

message: :: Where is the consensus for a close and the decision you have decided to enforce? It is quite clear there is anything but a consensus and this is not how such discussions on contested proposals are done. 16 for and 9 against does not equal an overall consensus and Wikipedia is not a democracy. I would suggest requesting more input before coming up with such notions and would suggest you self revert. Mabuska (talk) 08:34, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  I object against your decision. For a non-admin close there must be a clear consensus, and as you can see that is not the case. The Banner talk 09:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: If you take out the 3 socks or IPs who only have edited in this discussion, the tally is actually 13 for and 9 against. The close decision was an even worse decision by Sceptre. I will revert on that basis . Mabuska (talk) 09:19, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, it doesn't seem to be working, possibly due to the unusual way the move was performed. I can however revert the the edits done by Sceptre to the article on the basis on No consensus. Mabuska (talk) 09:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Consensus isn't a vote-counting exercise; it's based upon the strength of arguments. Just a "per COMMONNAME" without going into detail why is an incredibly weak argument in an RM, and multiple editors pointed to both historical and contemporary evidence that "Gráinne" is more appropriate in the article title than "Grace", which was taken into account in closing the discussion. Sceptre (talk) 10:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Your opinion on the discussion runs contrary to the WP:IMOS in regards to naming articles, which as I was recently informed on a similar topic trumps general policy. Mabuska (talk) 10:11, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

text: The 2007 edition of the Oxford Companion to Irish History edited by S J Connolly mentions only Grace O'Malley also known as Granuile. No mention of Grainne. Also just because she only spoke Irish (so we are told) does not mean automatically that she would be aghast to find her name Anglicised as Grace. That is OR at its worst. For all we know she may even have liked it if it was used in her time. But we will never know and shouldn't decide what she felt. Instead we follow the IMOS on the issue. Mabuska (talk) 16:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The great irony is that in this discussion  only the mention of Ngram and from the looks of it the academic source I provided mentioned above are the only evidence provided by either side ignoring the socks, of which one mentioned a source using the translated name. The rest appears to be nothing but personal opinion, possibly influenced by recentism even. Not a great way to settle which is more common for use and thus why this move was poorly done and against IMOS. Mabuska (talk) 17:24, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Please re-read my comments above.  I didn't do any in-depth research, but I did at least search via Google, Google Scholar, and JStor for relative name frequency. PepperBeast (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologise for missing your contribution, which does have major bearing on the issue as it only further backs up why this move was wrong and does not meet the requirements for the move. Where is the evidence that Grainne Ni Mhaille is the predominant English use name? Nowhere to be seen. Mabuska (talk) 19:55, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: After close discussion

message: You’ve mentioned a fantastic “more appropriate” criterion several times, but it has no basis in relevant policy at WP:AT. That’s one big problem with your close. 
As to “citing COMMONNAME without going into detail why“, that’s common practice when the name in question is unquestionably the one most commonly used in reliable English sources, which is clearly the case here. To dismiss those arguments  as “incredibly weak” flies in the face of how RMs have been evaluated since day 1. That’s another big problem with your close. 
While the arguments in Support here based on original usage are good arguments, they don’t belong in WP RM discussions and so those are the ones that should have been dismissed. Those are arguments to be made at publisher’s offices. If and when such arguments prevail with publishers of reliable English sources, then we can use that as basis to move an article such as this one, based on COMMONNAME. That’s the third big problem with your close.
This article should not have been moved.   —В²C ☎ 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Three big problems with this close

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Once again, "common name" and "use English" win the discussion, as they are longstanding well-established rules here. If you try this in the future, please make sure you show exactly how "Gráinne O'Malley" is the common name in our shared language.   Red Slash 19:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Grace O'Malley →  – Consistency with the official name of the historical figure, improperly closed discussion. Jamesroseman (talk) 21:27, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Why should the earlier discussion be improperly closed? For your information: this is the English-language Wikipedia. The Banner talk 21:58, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The "English-language Wikipedia" manages to respect many historical figures whose names are not in English when that name is more accurate or else better known (see: Éduard Manet). I contend that Grace O'Malley is equally known, but less accurate, than Gráinne O'Malley. Jamesroseman (talk) :::That is not an answer as why the earlier move request was improperly closed. The Banner talk 22:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussions and comments above cover this, no need to go over it again. The nominator just happens to agree with many of the discussion participants. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:38, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Or he just does not agree with an outcome not conform his opinion. The Banner talk 23:03, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

text: * And Joan of Arc. How hard is it to spell Jeanne d'Arc. Maybe it should be at Jeanne d'Arc with Joan of Arc listed as the common name.  Even her father Jacques and brother Pierre get to keep their real names. There should be some exceptions to spelling a name in English, Wikipedia allows for exceptions and the ignoring of any rule. Jeanne d'Arc seems like one of those. As is, potentially, this page. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:35, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: *So you want to move Joan of Arc too? I think that's highly unlikely to happen. "Jeanne d'Arc" simply isn't very recognizable to most English Wikipedia readers, and the main reason that we title articles by their common name is for recognizability, so that average readers will easily be able to find the article that they are searching for. And it's so predictable how people always seem to want to ignore all the rules when Wikipedia policy is so clearly against their position. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:39, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: *That's the only way ignore all rules works, the last resort for common sense concepts. I know Joan of Arc being moved is unlikely, and haven't tested it. This one though, Grace O'Malley is so far from her real name as to be a different name altogether. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:46, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: *Well this is a formal move request discussion, and is therefore supposed to be based on Wikipedia's article naming policies. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:55, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but ignore all rules says to ignore those policies for a common sense move. To the victor shouldn't go all the spoils. Tis the rebel in Wales. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:04, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Since you're citing ignore all rules as the justification for moving this article, that obviously means that you agree that moving this article would be a violation of WP:COMMONNAME. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Your comments last move are irrelevant, this topic is discussing the name Gráinne O'Malley, not her birth name. The use of Grace and Gráinne as her first name are equal in every Trends I've checked, and Grace is egregiously inaccurate. We should defer to accuracy here. Jamesroseman (talk) 08:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, indeed Google Trends has a far more American outlook than the editors involved in this discussion. The Banner talk 10:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: This isn't the "American" Wikipedia, it's the English-language Wikipedia. Jamesroseman (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

text: This is not the same as last year's RM, which requested a move to Gráinne Ní Mháille, while this is for a move to Gráinne O'Malley. She is equally known as Gráinne O'Malley and Grace O'Malley, so we should defer to accuracy here. Jamesroseman (talk) 08:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

text: This is not the same as last year's RM, which requested a move to Gráinne Ní Mháille, while this is for a move to Gráinne O'Malley. She is equally Gráinne O'Malley and Grace O'Malley, so we should defer to accuracy here.Jamesroseman (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

text: The linked guide to Irish naming contains itself a reference to when to choose English vs. Irish names. "Where the English- and Irish-language names are different: ...and the English name predominates in English, use the English name <does not apply> ...and the Irish name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English, use the English name <does not apply> ...and the Irish name is official and has gained favour in English, use the official Irish name <does not apply>." Additionally, the guide itself references Máirtín Ó Cadhain, whose Anglicized name (Martin Kyne) is not used because of the aforementioned rules. That one newspaper had one article is not reason enough. Grace O'Malley and Gráinne O'Malley are equal in popularity, so we should use the more accurate one. Jamesroseman (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Additionally, with regard to WP:COMMONNAME: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, Delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively)." Jamesroseman (talk) 13:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: No, you are wrong. We should follow the sources and guidelines, not a private opinion. The Banner talk 14:36, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: "We should follow the sources and guidelines" -- I agree, we should. Gráinne O'Malley (or Gráinne Mhaol) is the correct choice, adhering to naming conventions as laid out by Wikipedia. I have provided my reasoning above for why this is the case. Jamesroseman (talk) 15:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Than prove your point with the sources. Not with your Google Trends, as that supporthe the use of Grace O'Malley... The Banner talk 15:22, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

text: And about your NGram in your original response: I have added a few years and an extra name (yes, Grace O'Malley) and see the result. The Banner talk 15:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Apologies! Jamesroseman (talk) 17:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

text: The discussion above is closed.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Late to the party but just adding my oppose based on my previous request responses. Mabuska (talk) 18:57, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Requested move 3 February 2021