Talk:René Vilatte

message: Came across a long article about Vilatte in The NYT of 10 February 1907 with photos etc: can a link be added. Jackiespeel (talk) 13:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: New York Times article

message: This is a fascinatingly detailed article, but it has one serious problem. When I told someone about the article, and it's subject, there was nothing I could look at or point to that actually said in any vaguely concise way what or who he actually was. From the very start, it's all adjectives - "Joseph René Vilatte (January 24, 1854 – July 8, 1929) was, at different times, a Roman Catholic, Methodist, Congregationalist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Russian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, and Old Catholic." A Roman Catholic what? A Methodist what? A Presbyterian what? Gardener? Dean? Altar boy? Pope? Con man? Huckster? Prelate? I can't tell. --jpgordon::==( o ) 16:30, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree the lead was nebulous at best. I rewrote it to reflect the article but it still doesn't show his connections to criminals or his socialist and anarchist facets. For example, what I see as an inconsistency of being a bishop hired by socialists or anarchists such as Chrostowski. For another example, his justification for ordaining and consecrating substandard candidates to serve groups that hire him or the candidates; was he one of the earliest operators of an "ordination mill"? Other facets are what seems to be his work as a dubious real estate agent; his connection to "College of Church Musicians"/"Intercollegiate University" as a "diploma mill" to provide his "ordination mill" clients with the pretense of an education and credentials to facilitate their ministerial desires. Both of his business partners in his religious venture, Kaminski and Miraglia, were convicted or admitted forgers, Kolaszewski seemingly practiced medicine without a licence, Donkin was an impostor, etc. The "transfer" of titles to him, from a man who admitted to the  fabrication, added to his repertoire the ability to provide additional distinction for clients through, what seems to me to be, an "award mill". Seen as a whole, he, in my opinion, was able to provide what in the 21st century is marketed as an "integrated turn-key solution" and provide "support services" such as confirmations and church dedications for a want-to-be-priest client. BoBoMisiu (talk) 00:14, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  What was he? 

message: I removed the unverifiable quote attributed to Vilatte. For convenience, the revision date is 2014-01-08T14:41:35‎ and the number is 589813510.
There is no record of any published Vilatte autobiography on WorldCat. Is there a reliable citation for any Vilatte autobiography? --BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:50, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vilatte autobiography? 

message: Can someone explain the grayed-out 'citation needed' lines of text that appear at intervals? I've never before encountered this particular styling in any Wiki articles. Irish Melkite (talk) 04:05, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: it is a system wide  change for the way text wrapped by some templates is displayed without affecting the content –  the wrapped span is distinguished by a text color change instead of the previous background color change. In other words, it is not something just in this article or controlled by the contributing editor. I have seen it for a few months and like the presentation. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 11:38, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the explanation Irish Melkite (talk) 00:30, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation needed - grayed out text? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: For some odd reason, the notes like Ren%C3%A9_Vilatte#cite_note-4 seem to be filled with commentary like "Brandreth incorrectly dates this event as 1898-09-09." For that, it cites Brandreth from 1947 and then it cites a 1908 Polish article. I doubt the Kruszka article actually explicitly states that Brandreth is wrong so we have two competing statements on when an event occurred, one that is stated as "wrong" and yet cited for some pointless reason and the other that is stated as "right." I don't think these are actually competing theories so how do we know which is right and which is wrong and from there, can we just remove the wrong information rather than citing it as "wrong"? I'm certain that will help cut this article down in chunks without meandering between sources. - Ricky81682 (talk) 23:01, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: both the accurate and the inaccurate dates are cited. No, you are correct to doubt that  – it does not. Brandreth is a commonly cited English language source about the subject and Kruszka is a commonly cited Polish language source. The reason I added the note is that the Kaminski date could be changed into the incorrect Brandreth date without the note by a good faith English language editor. I think the note could be moved to a common questions section in the Vilatte talk page and into the Kaminski article as a note. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 23:29, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:   So how do we know which one is right? That could be made into a hidden comment noting the talk page without the need to explicitly cite Brandreth and the note. It's not like I see some massive edit war or dispute here that one or the other is clearly right and it's ambiguous. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:41, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  no, I don't see an edit war over this either. From what I recall reading, I think the Kruszka date is. FYI Anson – the most cited English source about Villate – used much of Brandreth's research but Kruszka was closer to the events both in time, in place – US vs GB – and in language of the Poles living in Buffalo where Kaminski was. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 00:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: So what is the actual source that Brandreth is incorrect? Is it Anson who said that? Then the citation should be to Anson for that point. - -Ricky81682 (talk) 02:34, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  from what I recall reading when I edited this article years ago, I think newspaper articles pointed to March (also see this German source for March). No, the citation should not be to Anson. Both Brandreth and Anson wrote in GB – in the 1940s and 1960s respectively – while the event occurred in US. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:54, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brandreth inaccuracies in the notes 

message: the validity of Vilatte's orders is the topic about Vilatte that is most relevant in the 21st century. I reverted . Many independent bishops – including christians, gnostics, theosophists, satanists, etc. – claim to have valid ordinations originating from Vilatte. This is not . –BoBoMisiu (talk) 00:26, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There is Vilatte orders, an entirely separate article on the matter. It is ridiculously excessive for this biography article. It barely could relate to an impact section about the orders from his life. There is no need for this entire lengthy discussion about this portion for this issue that is what ongoing 90 years later. Are you saying that literally none of that should be cut? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:41, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  yes, I am saying the content deleted in  should not be cut. The Vilatte orders article is about orders in the sense of associations while the validity of orders is about orders in the sense of ordinations. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 22:32, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Can I suggest that the heading should be changed to "Recognition of orders" or, to avoid any ambiguity, "Recognition of ordinations". We cannot comment with any factual objectivity on the "validity" of anyone's ordinations, we can only comment on whether and by whom such ordinations are recognised or not recognised. Afterwriting (talk) 03:25, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  yes, that is a good idea. I think "Recognition of ordinations" would be best. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 13:18, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Validity of orders 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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