Talk:Logan (Iroquois leader)

message: his name may be talgayeeta
The name Talgayeeta, like that of Toonay, also cited in the Yellow Creek Massacre section, are from the modern historical fiction writings of Allen Eckert and are not found in any document that predates the 1960's.
TruthBastion (talk) 15:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  name 

message: Is there any evidence, anywhere, that suggests that Logan held the title of "chief" in any sense whatsoever, other than in the eyes of white people who simply assumed he was a chief because they didn't know any better?  As the article points out, historian Richard White states unequivocally that Logan was not a chief. I don't know what grounds White has for saying that (his explanation is flawed, and his footnote doesn't help), but I also don't know of any evidence demonstrating that White is wrong.  
And apart from the question of whether Logan actually was a chief, is it appropriate to use "Chief" as part of his name in the article title? After all, wikipedia entries on US Presidents are not entitled "President so-and-so."  
I don't know how to change an article title, but I strongly suggest cutting the word "Chief" from it.  If someone has reason to believe that the title is appropriate, it should be spelled out in the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurotic Nerd (talk • contribs) 06:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like this article was named "Chief Logan" because "Logan" was already used as an article title. However, the article "Logan" is just a disambiguation page—there's actually no article called "Logan"—so I've moved to old page to Logan (disambiguation) and requested an administrator to move the mis-titled "Chief Logan" to simply "Logan". I've been meaning to do this for some time, but there's always so much to do. Thanks for bringing it up. —Kevin Myers 13:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  —Kevin Myers 15:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  why does the article title use the term "chief"? 

message: Ya that's right that logan was a leader.But there is another mean is also for this word...A mountain peak in the St. Elias Range in the southwestern Yukon Territory in Canada (19,850 feet high).....that is also named as logan...so i think by these two example we can understand better,what logan actually means ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bishnoimunda (talk • contribs) 12:16, June 5, 2008
:That would be Mount Logan, which readers can find by following the Logan (disambiguation) link. —Kevin Myers 12:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: June 2008

message: I moved the article back to Logan from where it had been moved without discussion, (it was at Logan (American Indian leader)). I also restored the dab link at the top of the article. I prefer it at just "Logan", but think this should be discussed here before any moves are made. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 02:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move? 

message: There are a lot of errors as well as unreferenced and undocumented (undocumentable?) content on this page.  I am new to Wiki editing.  Do you prompt previous contributors to either supply real references or remove their work?  Do I need to challenge each bad part, piece by piece?  If they don't supply references, do I simply remove the content?  I am just not clear on how interactive with previous contributors the process here is supposed to be.  I don't want to step on toes, I just want to see factual information presented.
TruthBastion (talk) 15:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Welcome! On a page like this where there are statements with no references to reliable sources, I would be BOLD and correct errors with correct text backed up by refs to reliable sources. If there are things you disagree with that are referenced, I would raise it on the talk page for the article (like this) and perhaps also on the user's talk page. It is good to check their contributions to see if they are still active. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 17:06, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, go ahead and fix obvious errors and request citations for statements you are unsure about. I haven't looked at this article for some time, but a lot of information appears to have been recently introduced that is not in the listed sources. Obvious errors were introduece at some point too. For example, that article used to say "Logan was probably not at the Battle of Point Pleasant", but someone removed the "not", changing the entire meaning. You already fixed that, so you're on the right track. —Kevin Myers 20:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems with Logan the Mingo page... 

message: "==Yellow Creek massacre==
Logan's friendly relations with white ? changed with the Yellow Creek Massacre of 30 April 1774, in which a group of Virginia frontiersmen led by Daniel Greathouse murdered about 21 Mingos, among them Logan's mother, daughter, brother, nephew, sister, and cousin, at the mouth of Yellow Creek, near present-day Wellsville, Ohio along the Ohio River. Logan's daughter, Toonay, was heavily pregnant and nearly ready to give birth at the time of the massacre. She had been tortured while alive and disemboweled. Her fetus was ripped from her body and both, she and the fetus,scalped. The rest of the Mingos were also scalped. Logan longed for revenge. Scalping, according to Native Americans beliefs, meant that war had been declared. "
This version of the events of the Yellow Creek massacre appears to be largely paraphrased from the historical fiction writings of A.W. Eckert, or other fictional sources, and not the actual eyewitness accounts of the period.  One clue is the use of the name "Toonay", which is believed to have been invented by Eckert.  Also, Logan's mother died in an epidemic during the 1740's, and there is no period evidence to suggest a nephew or daughter were killed in the massacre.  Logan's younger brother, known to the Euro-Americans as "John Petty" was killed, along with two female relatives variously identified in period documents.  When these women are identified as his "mother" or "sister", it is within the context of Iroquoian kinship terms, and not the biological sense that European Americans used.  In addition to the other factual errors, the statement "Scalping, according to Native Americans beliefs, meant that war had been declared.", is not only I believe historically incorrect, but a bit off logically.  I believe the killing of your people, not their scalping after death, is sufficient evidence that war had been declared.  Should this section be removed pending a more historically and factually based account being found or compiled to replace it?
TruthBastion (talk) 07:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Could the section be replaced with a few sentences for now - I like Logan's younger brother, known to the Euro-Americans as "John Petty" was killed, along with two female relatives variously identified in period documents.  When these women are identified as his "mother" or "sister", it is within the context of Iroquoian kinship terms, and not the biological sense that European Americans used. (yours, above) It also seems to me that this article needs a "In popular culture" section where the Eckert portrayal and its inaccuracies is addressed, as well as any other portrayals in fiction. I have seen the Eckert books and seem to recall that he claimed they were all factual (this should be addressed in any case). Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 12:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

text: Sorry to be unclear - I meant that there will be people who have read Eckert's works and come to this and other articles and it would help to note here the inaccuracies in those books (not everyone will look at Allan W. Eckert). I am more interested in Shikellamy and have this on my watchlist, but added  to the two artickes mentioned. Ruhrfisch  ><>°° 18:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yellow Creek Massacre Section 

message: I removed the Eckert description of the Yellow Creek massacre.  The Logan page is still in need of lots of help from reliable sources, please no more Eckert made up names and narrative.  This was also added to the Daniel Greathouse page.  If the contributer who posted it here and there reads this, could you please remove the Eckert information there as well.  See Wiki's own entry for Eckert to see part of the problem with using him as a source.
TruthBastion (talk) 23:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please, no Eckert information. 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The section Logan_(Iroquois_leader)#Logan's_revenge is an almost word-for-word match of a paragraph from Touring Ohio.  With no citations, it's impossible to tell whether a Wikipedia editor stole this from a website, or whether the website copied this from Wikipedia. Canute (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: If a text is stolen word-for-word, it will arrive wholesale in the edit history in one edit. If it is iteratively-written Wikipedia content, previous versions will show the text evolving. We can look, for example, at this version from 2008 where we see the paragraph in a different, but clearly earlier form. The current paragraph in its current form mostly dates from 2009. The tourism website is a copy of Wikipedia. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 17:55, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for looking into that. Canute (talk) 18:25, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plagiarism?