Talk:Religion in South Korea

message: Sikhism is a minority religion in South Korea. Sikhs have been in South Korea for 50 years. Early Sikh pioneers came to the country  as traders and businessmen. The first South Korean gurdwara was established in 2001. There are about 550 Sikhs in South Korea, now recently the Sikhs in South were allowed to acquire South Korean citizenship.
Should get a mention on this page under Other religions. Doremon764 (talk) 04:48, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sikhism in South Korea 

message: I note that @TruthInMesopotamia made a large number of major edits including removal of much of the 2015 census data on the grounds that it had been heavily criticized (with almost all the major edits being marked as minor, if they had not been marked as minor I might have manually restored rather than a fullscale rollback). I note the US State Department uses the 2015 data in its reports https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-report-on-international-religious-freedom/south-korea/  I also note that the 2015 census data on non-religious seems to follow from the 2005 census data while the data put in the table seemed completely out of kilter.  There may well be useful changes in what I rolled back which should be put back. Erp (talk) 13:02, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. Notice that there has been a recent wave of pushing ARDA data throughout Wikipedia by various relatively new accounts. As it has been already discussed many times before (see the latest one here), census data are the most reliable ones in any case, and they should never be replaced until the next census data are released. ARDA and Pew data are not reliable for a number of reasons. 1) ARDA's data and projections are reproductions of those of the World Religion Database/World Christian Database, which are ultimately produced by a team of the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary; I consulted ARDA's site last year and their data seemed quite reasonable and in line with most countries' censuses, but they have recently been changed with completely different data and projections from the WRD/WCD which are utterly wrong compared to those from censuses and significantly overestimate Christianity in every single country. 2) Pew's data are completely outdated: their latest data for all countries are those collected in 2010; no newer data have been produced since, apart from data for religion in the United States, and Pew's sets of data from 2020 to 2050 (Pew-Templeton Global Religious Futures) are pseudodata projections (WP:CRYSTAL) just like those of ARDA/WRD/WCD. Here, together with other users we have been considering the deprecation of these sources.--Æo (talk) 15:51, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I can think of a few cases where census data is not reliable such as during a civil war when portions of the country might not be surveyed or if government policy is not to survey certain groups. However those should be easily documented.   In this particular case the only item cited  was  which doesn't seem to have anything relevant in the abstract (judging by machine translation).  The current article version does say (end of intro) there is some controversy; however, I'm not sure whether it rises to the level of scholarship as opposed to people unhappy with the results.  The reference is: Kim Han-soo, Shon Jin-seok. 신자 수, 개신교 1위… "종교 없다" 56%. The Chosunilbo, 20/12/2016.  However it seems to be (I'm using machine translation) a newspaper article quoting religious figures not scholars on the census not producing good results. Erp (talk) 00:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rollback of removal of 2015 census data 

message: Hey its that more better describe more about no religion in korea? Based on my experience no religion in Korea is not atheist. No religion in korean still practical korean folk religion culture (Korean Buddhism, Confucuanism, and Shamanism).  Cahyand (talk) 12:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I put your comment in a new section since it is a different topic.  It probably would be better; however, we need reliable sources.  Also we might want to check what word/question is used in the census for the category and any shades of meaning which could be lost in translation to English. Unfortunately I don't know Korean --Erp (talk) 15:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  No Religion 

message: I have marked this change in accordance with its significance. I note that @Æo has provided sources that suggest that the 2020 religious data is incorrect, and I have kept the data removed from the article- I also note that they implied that I was somehow colluding with Evangelical organisations to lie about the significance of religious populations on Wikipedia pages (“Notice that there has been a recent wave of pushing ARDA data throughout Wikipedia by various relatively new accounts.”), which is simply incorrect. I however am leaning towards your opinion that the 2020 religious data isn’t very accurate (mostly because you’ve presented it as a projection). Going back to the original point though- the 2015 religious data has gone slightly misunderstood. The 2015 “census” wasn’t really a census at all. The random sharp decline recorded in Buddhism & Catholicism is, according to South Korean Christians, because of the change in methodology. The 2005 census was a real proper census such as those in the west. It was an analysis of the entire population ("whole survey") through traditional data sheets compiled by every family. Everyone was counted, it was comprehensive and very accurate. The 2015 “census”, was not only largely conducted through the internet, which clearly explains the rise in irreligiosity and the apparent decline of religious belief, but limited to a sample of about 20% of the South Korean population. So the 2015 data was not only limited to only a fifth of the population, but the way that sample was chosen specifically and disproportionately affected the results. It was not a census, it was a sample survey at best, passed off as a survey to the country and international community (which is probably why the US government website simply used the census, there would be no reason for them to do any extraordinary research when the word census is used). So with both the 2015 “census” and the 2020 Pew data being clearly discredited- I have kept the 2020 data removed, put the information about 2015 census controversy under its own paragraph along with it’s important context, and created a piechart with the last reputable census data we have form 2005, as Æo said: “…census data are the most reliable ones in any case, and they should never be replaced until the next census data are released.” Considering the 2015 data was clearly not a census, which again is a survey of the entirety of a population not a sample, the last reputable data we have is from 2005. Seeing as the 2015 “census” was almost seven years ago now, let’s hope that there is another one soon and we can update the data. Until then, the 2005 piechart is the best we have. TruthInMesopotamia (talk) 07:22, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: A properly done survey can still give accurate information (sometimes more accurately than trying to ask everyone; almost always some groups will be overlooked, e.g., people who are homeless; a good survey compensates), and, I fully expect the South Korean census bureau to do a proper survey (North Korean census bureau would be entirely different matter).   If it had not done a proper survey, I would expect either disclaimers in the results reported or serious criticism from statisticians (not religious leaders who happen not to be statisticians).  Now changes in questions can change results (e.g., "What is your religion" versus "What is your religion, if any" versus "Which of the following do you follow, multiple choice"). Such changes or a change from everyone asked that question to only some can be noted in footnotes to the table if reliable sources have noted it as an issue.   I have not yet seen anything reliable to cast doubt on the 2015 figures. Erp (talk) 21:46, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  positioning of 2005 census as reputable one