Talk:Brummagem

message: In chapter V of George Eliot's 1866 novel " Felix Holt" she has her hero remark "The most of the middle class are as ignorant as the working people about everything that doesn't belong to their own Brummagem life." Holt is college-educated, devoted to helping the poor, but blunt-speaking, arrogant, and prejudiced against all the rest of society. The adjective Brummagem is definitely negative, and its use by Holt beautifully encapsulates his personality. < CherokeeGuy >    — Preceding unsigned comment added by CherokeeGuy (talk • contribs) 17:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another 19th century reference 

message: Brummagem is actually a rare term for fake.Page for that,please and thank you?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.2.8 (talk) 00:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Something... 

message: Brummagem was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made below the archived discussion rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP
Dicdef. Thue | talk 00:49, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Former deletion proposal

message: It's still hyperbole to describe Parkes as one of the UK's most significant inventors.  Parkesine was actually a failure commercially and celluloid plastics were subsequently successfully developed in the USA.  The stuff about the steel "knibs" (do you read any of your stuff before posting it here, Nick?) is irrelevant, POV, and unreferenced (it's a basic Wikipedia standard that if you're going to say "some people say X", you must provide references to show who has said that).  --Andrew Norman 09:51, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: ""it's a basic Wikipedia standard that if you're going to say "some people say X", you must provide references to show who has said that)." - Ok, thanks. Nick Boulevard 22:27, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nick, I am going to request mediation on this article now, because it's obvious that you aren't prepared to behave reasonably.  I have also tidied up the reference to Parkes - the only "unfortunate irony" is that you chose to insert a paragraph (presumably to boost your contention that nobody ever made counterfeit rubbish in Birmingham) about an inventor who produced a plastic which he marketed as a cheap substitute for ivory, exactly the sort of thing that gave the word "Brummagem" the meaning you are trying to erase from history.  --Andrew Norman 14:16, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Andy, I added Parkes as an example of an extremely skilled workman and inventor of Birmingham who gave us many great things including celluloid which when combined with Electroplating (which was first developed in the UK by Brummies) produced the precursor for Photographic film which gave us movie films etc etc, as I understand (he did all but name it), he was one of many tallented workmen of the city :) see: Science and invention in Birmingham it can stay or go I don't much care really, what I do care about is that you are deleting my content about the steel knib trade and how it helped the poor of the world who could up until then not afford such luxuries. I believe this is relevant as you seem insistant on adding your little negative quotation about Brummagem (birmingham), what it means/meant to someone else is not relevant in my opinion although I admit it exists in many dictionaries doesn't mean its 100% correct, maybe there are too many quotations here full stop, anyway I am sure we are mature enough to work this out, don't you just love Wikipedia :). Nick Boulevard 18:07, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  He doesn't have an answer. :) Nick Boulevard 23:13, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Parkes etc

message: I agree that the quotation isn't perfect, it's one which came immediately to hand (and it does illustrate quite nicely the dual "showy and counterfeit" meaning). The "provincial dismissal" issue is why I landed myself in all this - I was reading Algernon Blackwood's "Sand", and there is an unpleasant character in that story (crude, unspiritual, duplicitous) who Blackwood makes a point of stressing is from Birmingham. Being a bit of a chauvinist I bristle at that sort of thing, and went to look at what Wikipedia had to say on the subject - I wasn't surprised (given the incompleteness of the project) that there wasn't anything here, but I was HORRIFIED to discover that it had been here but had been removed, and removed in a way contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. There's an interesting social history of denigration of people from industrial cities, or with particular accents, or in particular occupations (trade and manufacturing), and pretending that it doesn't happen isn't going to make it go away. --Andrew Norman 12:26, May 4, 2005 (UTC) ~ after reading this again, I feel even more strongly that you (Andy) have an alterior motive for contributing to this article :). Nick Boulevard 23:49, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: "there is an unpleasant character in that story (crude, unspiritual, duplicitous) who Blackwood makes a point of stressing is from Birmingham. Being a bit of a chauvinist I bristle at that sort of thing, and went to look at what Wikipedia had to say on the subject" ~ Andy, to put an end to your little game, answer me this please... do you believe that a majority of people from Brummagem/Birmingham hold the same traits as the character that you read about (and decided to highlight on the Brummagem page)? Nick Boulevard 23:59, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Nick, I am not going to participate in some sort of "Brummie purity test".  It's plain to everyone else participating in this farce what my motives are, and the answer to your question is in the passage you quote.  Read it, and at least try to understand.  --Andrew Norman 05:10, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  "It's plain to everyone else participating in this farce what my motives are" ~ couldn't agree more. Nick Boulevard 23:13, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

text:  "It's plain to everyone else participating in this farce" ~ please elaborate, do you ever read what you add here Andy? Nick Boulevard 23:13, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Andrew Norman

message: I really don't wish to piss anyone off here but all I can say is think of it like this...
You are from the U.S.A. in the 19th century and people from another country like for instance Great Britain have their noses put out of joint after getting their arses whipped in the War of Independence... then news papers in Britain printed all sorts of propaganda and innacuracies about the U.S.A. which go unchallenged, should those derogative references to the U.S.A. be included on the U.S.A. page on Wikipedia? Nick Boulevard 00:16, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Don't wish to fall out with anyone

message: Nick, ... It's plain to everyone else participating in this farce what my motives are, and the answer to your question is in the passage you quote.  Read it, and at least try to understand
For those too lazy to read this page I quoted exactly this:
there is an unpleasant character in that story (crude, unspiritual, duplicitous) who Blackwood makes a point of stressing is from Birmingham. Being a bit of a chauvinist I bristle at that sort of thing
then I asked Andy if he thought all people from Brummagem fitted the role he quoted and he refered me to teh above quotation? Nick Boulevard 00:30, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Andrew Norman shows his insecurities about [[Birmingham]] :)

message: When I first visited wikipedia the Brummagem article was quite poor, pardon my savagery but I saw it as a boil on the bottom of the Birmingham article that needed sqeezing, I believe this zit has now been well and truly zapped and with so much history of the word there is a much more balanced article. I don't often see this word on wikipedia but... a sincere thanks to one and all, if this place were eniterly one sided (which it truly isn't) then it would surely become a graveyard for the megalomaniacs (A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence. Nick Boulevard 23:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Brilliant work

message: Source Nick Boulevard 23:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The songs ought to be at Wikisource. They're about the same length as the Christ the Lord Is Risen Today example at Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources 86.140.109.194 00:02, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I would like this song to stay, the article won't be damaged by including a short song, the article is hardly overflowing with info and the song is a good example of how the word Brummagem was used in reference to the canals of the city. Nick Boulevard 17:49, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not a case of your or my personal view whether the article will be damaged: it's whether it's explicitly out according to Wikipedia's format guidelines. According to Wikipedia:Lyrics and poetry too, there's little case for inclusion of a whole song unless there's scope for "an analytical framework that describes the song and its cultural impact". I can't find Brummagem doesn't add much either. Its sole relevance is that it shows the term used as a place name. The first couple of lines shows you that. Also I'm not clear on the copyright situation with songs quoted from published collections. 86.141.80.81 19:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Rosemary

message: parts of this page are duplicated, it is also confused between old and new. Nick Boulevard 23:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean Up 

message: Someone please add the correct pronunciation, using IPA symbols. Specifically, is the G pronounced /g/ or /j/? Thanks. Cbdorsett (talk) 05:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation 

message: The great Brummagem murder of the 19th century was the slaughter of 2 families at an address on Woodstock Road, Moseley.
Citation? I can't find it in the British Library 19th century newspaper archive. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 10:06, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alleged great Brummagem murder 

message: I came across this word in an American review from 1880 of a very obscure opera by a French composer about Russian Tsar Peter the Great.  I had to look the word up because I had never encountered it before.  I very much doubt the word has any lingering use in Australia, as claimed in the lede. "Brummy", yes.  "Brummagem", never.  So, who says it's heard down here?  --  Jack of Oz [Talk] 05:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Known in Australia?

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Brummagem. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080509162006/https://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/brummies.htm to http://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/brummies.htm
*Added  tag to http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/hst/european/TheHistoryofEnglandfromtheAccessionofJamesIIVol1/chap3.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050307222032/http://www.virtualbrum.co.uk:80/brummagem.htm to http://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/brummagem.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041228200201/http://www.mudcat.org:80/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2805 to http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2805
*Added  tag to http://apic.us/The_Keynoter/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050514075219/http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au:80/f/fitzgerald/f_scott/beaut/index.html to http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/f/fitzgerald/f_scott/beaut/index.html
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The opening sentence of this article is, in my opinion, misleading when it says “Brummagem (and historically also Bromichan, Bremicham and many similar variants, all essentially "Bromwich-ham")”, as this appears to imply the etymology of “Brummagem” is “Bromwich-ham”, despite a later sentence saying “The word appeared in the Middle Ages as a variant on the older and coexisting form of Birmingham (spelled Bermingeham in Domesday Book)”.
The Oxford English Dictionary clearly sets out that “Brummagem” and “Birmingham” have the same origins, and notes the sound differences of the former to the latter as follows: “Variants in Br- , showing metathesis of r , are attested from the late 12th cent. onwards (compare Brumingeham (1198), Brimingham (1200)). Forms of the name showing pronunciations of original medial -nge as /ndʒ/, /ntʃ/, and (with subsequent loss of medial n : compare α. forms) as /dʒ/, /tʃ/ are evidenced from the 13th cent. onwards (compare e.g. Bermincham (1285), Birmecheham (1285), etc.).”
“Brummagem” therefore is NOT derived from “Bromwich-ham”, but is merely a variant of “Birmingham”, distinguished from such by the metathesis of ‘r’ in the initial syllable resulting in forms quoted in the O.E.D. like “Brumingeham (1198)” and “Brimingham (1200)”, coupled with other sound changes, which can be seem in forms like “Bermincham (1285)” and “Birmecheham (1285)” without metathesis of ‘r’.
As the O.E.D. also says “Forms of the place name showing metathesis in the initial syllable and a medial affricate were very frequent in the 17th cent.; these features persist in current local pronunciation of the standard form Birmingham , and are also occasionally reflected in spelling. Compare the following examples of Brummagem (and variants) as a place name:” i.e. “Brumageham” (1660) through to “Brummagem” (2001). 
Perhaps someone could change things in the article to reflect the above, and remove the “Bromwich-ham” reference, which seems to be an example of folk-etymology?  Thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.61.220.3 (talk) 09:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Further to the above, and as I am in the Library at the moment, which is where this computer is, I have just looked up the entry in The Place-Names of Warwickshire (1936), which the O.E.D. references, and this is what it says about Birmingham in relation to forms like Brummagem, on p. 36: “Occasional metathesis of r, giving forms with initial Br-, is found from an early date. Later this established itself as the regular local pronunciation.  From the 13th century onwards we have clear evidence also of the pronunciation of original -nge- as [ndʒ] and, with loss of n, as [dʒ], which has given rise to the familiar soft g of Brummagem.” 193.61.220.3 (talk) 11:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: P.S. Forgot to mention, on p. 34, against “Birmingham”, it has “[vulgo brʌmədʒəm, bɛˑnigəm]”, presumably indicating common local pronunciations. 193.61.220.3 (talk) 13:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: You are making some valid points, and clearly have a keener understanding of the philology than I do; but the bottom line is essentially that there were a number of variant forms of the name in the middle ages, which eventually settled down into "Birmingham" for formal use, and "Brummagem" for informal use. I would suggest that you be bold and make some adjustments yourself to the article to correct and improve the wording – perhaps adding a short "Etymology" section, as appears in many Wikipedia articles. GrindtXX (talk) 14:14, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bromwich-ham reference inaccurate and misleading 

message: The title Brummagem in song is worded poorly. It could be changed to something along the lines of Usage in music. Tescomealdeal1 (talk) 11:38, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Chapter Title