Talk:Nazism and socialism

message: Privatism as early law dictionaries used it didn't exactly mean what it means now when Socialism was an early movement. It meant cutting off from the masses, 'privative' meaning 'removing' through being kept for particular classes, outside of the question of allowing individual ownership as the condition by which material accessibility is ultimately given, i.e. all individuals being 'private' persons wouldn't have been used in that sense as it would have sounded silly to them. the Socialism's that did use 'anti-private' terminology originally very likely had 'private' defined differently than how Communism later came to mean it. Further confusing the two government types. They were founded basically as fitting terms for their ideas, Socialism being a 'social' minded movement of respect to necessary different services provided by each aspect of society, and Communism seeking to 'Commune' the people together in common. But they are fairly different from one another. Nagelfar 06:57, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I really don't quite follow you. David.Monniaux 07:16, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: From dictionary.com; 'Privative' - "Causing deprivation, lack, or loss" Nagelfar 07:48, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, there's even better: dict.org has a marvellous Webster 1913 (as well as other dictionaries) that you can install locally on your machine. David.Monniaux 08:38, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Socialism & Privatism

message: :"These members would bind THEMSELVES to the rule of "you can only revert once". They would often propose options on the talk page BEFORE making edits to the article. They might even wait an hour or a day for assent from others before making changes. They will also be eager to request community involvement and/or peer review, wherever necessary."
Sam, given that you've revereted more than once and that you haven't discussed the options on talk before you've edited the article I put to you that you are not following the rules of the club which I believe you yourself founded.  You're not setting a good exampleAndyL 07:49, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted once, and won't revert to the same edit again. You are trolling, and I don't intend to communicate with you further.  Sam Spade 07:55, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: rv

message: If anybody is interested the passage I wanted removed was this 
:'Hitler and the Nazis were one of numerous nationalist and increasingly fascistic groups that existed in Germany and contended for leadership of the anti-socialist, anti-liberal movement and, eventually, of the German state' 
along w unclarified mentions of left/right. They have been removed, and I am very glad to see the article shaping up. Sam Spade 07:55, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The purpose of the article is to be NPOV, the majority contemporary POV doesn't make it NPOV nor is coming to the article with the assumption that seeing the Nazis as Socialist is a 'mistake,' which is also completely POV. Even worse is the stereotype that such a view is made only by the economically conservative, seeing it as propaganda could only be from the preconception that association to Nazism makes something intrinsically adverse. This should solely be for describing political science & the original manifestation of third position meta-politics with Nazism.Nagelfar 04:54, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Looking Good

message: AndyL --
Re: your changes. Socialism should be capped in this context. Same for Liberal and Conservative. In a political context, all of these words should be capped. Otherwise, a "conservative estimate" becomes only the Conservative party's spending predicitons, a "liberal helping" becomes assistance from a Liberal MP and so on.
-- 62.6.127.107
Perhaps someone with a style dictionary can confirm or deny this but in my copy editing class we were taught that you cap parties, not ideologies unless they are named after a person (with one exception I'll mention in a moment). You cap liberal if you are talking about a member of the Liberal Party but if you are describing a left leaning member of the US Democratic Party that person is a liberal Democrat. A Leninist is capped because the ideology is named aftter a person, same with a Marxist but a socialist is not capped unless he or she is being referred to in the context of belnging to the Socialist Party. We cap Nazi because that refers to the Nazi Party (even if Nazi is a nickname). The general exception is with communist. If one is referring to the pro-Soviet movement then you refer to a Communist but if someone isn't a Moscow-line ideologue than he or she is a communist. AndyL 16:59, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Capital

message: Socialists strongly deny the claim that there exists a relationship between Nazism and socialism
^This immediately takes the position that the Nazis weren't Socialist in their Nationalism by claiming broadly that Socialists refute association to Nazism. 100% POV. Maybe it should say "many Economic Socialists" or "many social mutualists" Nagelfar 05:04, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: or the phenomenon of liberal Communists calling themselves Socialist because (and I admit this is POV but only as reasoning for definitional divergence) of a misconception that Communism was the totalitarian version of Socialism?? Nagelfar 05:53, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: I made the change, w a subtle distinction. Sam Spade 06:02, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: These 'Socialists' who opposed Nazism were self proclaimed Communist & Bolshevist parties. There were no other 'Socialist' parties in Germany at the time just the Communist & National Socialist. Highly nationalist-capitalist parties opposed the Nazi party, such as the "Deutschnationale Volkspartei" (DNVP) & "Deutschvolks Freiheitspartei" (DVFP)  Nagelfar 07:17, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The DVFP did not merge with the Nazis, they merged with the DNVP to oppose the Nazis, only once the Nazis did assume power was the DNVP forced dissolve with it's members joining the NSDAP. As for the Social Democratic party, they weren't Socialists, even the Communist parties opposed them and were in favor of the Nazis ousting them. Nagelfar 08:04, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

text: And the Social Democrats were opposed by the Communist party. The Nazis were unconventional Socialists, so it's unlikely that other Socialists would approve either way, the "Tat Kries" & self described 'National Bolsheviks' were also opposed by conventional Communists and they believed in abolition of private ownership as much as them, so it's no real point. Nagelfar 08:09, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: 1) The most important German individual to consider is Arthur Moeller van den Bruck, who was a sort of spiritual godfather of Nazism. He was definitely, in one sense, Right wing and founded the JungenKonservative movement. However, his aim was to create a form of right-wing Socialism more congenial to the Germanic (Prussian) temperament than Liberal(ish) Socialism. or as Collingwood called it in his autobiography (in an otherwise abysmal chapter) 'a caricature of all of Socialism's worst features'. How successful he was in doing so is a matter for debate, but it can't be denied this was his aim. The enemy of his ideology was Liberalism, by which he meant Classical Liberalism, and the English/American commercial spirit in general so today he would certainbly not be any more beyond the pale of the Left than Islamic Fundamentalists are. (see George Galloway)
2) There were obviously at least two wings of the Nazi party, one of which was merely industrialists and plutocrats aiming to fool the proles into electing a proxy leader to enforce their tyranny. However, there was also an ideologically commmitted wing which believed as passionatley in destroying Captialism and creating a command economy as they believed in anti-semitism. The de facto leader of this wing was Strasser who had been effectively ostracised by the time the Nazis came to power so this, along with the night of the Long Knives, would suggest the former group had won out. However, if this had been the case the Holocaust would not have happened because the industrial interests, while perhaps not enamoured of the Jews, were interested in making money not throwing it away on death camps. Just because the Capitalists (I use the word to denote occupation not ideology) thought they were fooling the Socialists does not mean they actually did so, probably something of the reverse was true. In my view Goebbels was the representative of the committed Natioanal Socialist wing and Goering of the big businees wing so it is likely the two sides were battling for Hitler's ear up until the end.
3) In the inter war period substantial links were built up between the German Nationalist reactionary Right and the Bolsheviks, linked to some extent by extremist Strasserites known as National Bolsheviks. 'Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime' by Richard Pipes is a good place to start to investigate this. He also purports to demonstrate that Mussolini coonsciously modelled his method of rule (if not the outcomes he wished to achieve) on the Bolsheviks.
4) Charles Murraus said Fascism is 'Socialism emancipated from Democracy' I have yet to hear a better definition. As to Socialism glorifying equality and Fascism the reverse, enforiced inequality has always been the conseqeunce of Socialism (whether in Communist countries or more Democratic sorts) so Fascism is really gloves-off Socialism 81.110.202.65 12:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Things to consider 

message: Since the issue of the relationship between Nazism and socialism is so often discussed these days, and confused, this article is necessary but it needs a total re-write.--R-41 (talk) 00:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  This article has not been worked on in a long time, is badly written, but will attempt to make it a good article