Talk:Honor killing/Archive 2

message: Other types of honour killing are:
- duel (well known in the western world and hopfully outdated by now.)
- clan (or blood) revenge.
- murder for sexual contacts crossing tribe, race or nation borders.
**In the modern context it represents the killing of the female family member by a male relative to restore family honour in society Enlil Ninlil 07:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Honour killing seams to be redused to a certain type ignoring all the other.  

message: The problem here is Mike18xx, like I have said many times already is that you are replacing an entire section with what you think are verses that encourage honour killing. That is original research. You may think that those verses from the hadith encourage it, but it certainly is not written or commanded by the hadith at all so we can't just say that people honour kill because of the this. --a.n.o.n.y.m  t 20:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see anything supportive of yours either. I only see you reverting over and over or abusing protect tags without having read wikipedia policy. And of course you reverted again.  --a.n.o.n.y.m   t 20:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

text: The first one, a racist site unsurprisingly, talks about stuff that happened in a desert tribe of Pakistan. Of course as I say again Honour killings happen in non-Muslim tribes in Africa too for example. And none of these sources talks about Islam having to do anything with it and definitely doesn't say anything about hadith. I don't see how this helps you. --a.n.o.n.y.m   t 21:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Are you actually denying that it is racist? I didn't expect one of their members to accept it. But anyways you still haven't made your point; just gave us more reason to revert this. Especially seeing the type of forums you use as sources. --a.n.o.n.y.m   t 21:31, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I deny that criticism of Islam constitutes "racism"; I am not a member of LGF; and your motives on Wikipedia are transparent. Your bandwagon-fallacy appeal to "us" is also duly noted, as is your inability to mount any rebuttal which does not boil down to "shooting the messenger". The al-takeyya games continue....--Mike18xx 20:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes

message: Irnt Duel & Harakiri honour killings . Why arnt they discussed here .
: Start discussing them; I'm interested.--Mike18xx 20:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *This is only on one specific topic, if you can find another page on your area than creat one, its funEnlil Ninlil 07:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Other honour killings

message: The following, with slight alteration, has been submitted several times this evening by me to the beginning of the "In countries with Islamic law" section, and RV'd by anonymous persons in what I label attempts to "sweep bad stuff under the rug"; consequently I have added a Disputed flag to this Wiki entry.
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Where there is no mention of "honour killing", per se, in the Quran or Hadiths, several passages authorize harsh punishments up to and including execution for the crime of adultury (accusations of which are usually associated with honour killings), as Muslim apostate Syed Kamran Mirza of the critical Islam-watch.org details in an abbreviated list:
:Dictums of Quran and Hadiths which may dictate/incite honour killing:
:Quran-24:2  "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day."
:Quran-17:32  "Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils)."
:Sahi Muslim No. 4206: "A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God's forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her."
:Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65: Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."
:Al-Bukhari: The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise".
:Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others: Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, "No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!" In another version, it is stated, "When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance".
While such harsh punishment theoretically applies to both males and females, equivalently severe treatments are seldom meted out to males in heterosexual liaisons (homosexuality, however, is dealt with harshly in areas under Sharia Law). 04:40, 24 January 2006 Mike18xx
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Latest RV contains edit summary: Links and quotes demonstrate harsh penalties regarding extra-marital sex, and sub-legal status of females in several nations, providing societal conditions making it difficult to prosecute murders. Anon, is your BEST argument for sweeping those quotes under the rug the fact that none of them contain a direct-translation-into-English of "honour killing"?--Mike18xx 23:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quran and Hadith quotes  

message: By the way, I think this double standard is one of the things which makes Christians (or Western Christendom generally) feel that Islam is a "lesser civilization". Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery (note: the man had to have been there, but was not even mentioned in the story) after challenging all the men present: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Then he bent down and wrote something in the sand. (No one knows what he wrote, but as he wrote all the men left "one by one, beginning with the eldest". One can only speculate that he was exposing their hypocrisy.)
One reason Arab cultures oppose the West (particularly the USA) is its protection of women - or shall I say its exaltation of women as having equal value and thus being deserving of equal rights? Ancient Greece and later Western Christendom elevated the status of women, while "backward" cultures continue to treat women as sub-human. 
Okay, tirade over. The question is, what part of this is relevant to the current article, and how to work it in? --Uncle Ed 19:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These claims are your personal opinion serve no purpose here.  I'm sure you are aware that none of it is relevent. You also used some insulting generalisations that I believe do not belong here either. --Maha Odeh 13:10, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Double standard

message: I reverted the addition to :Category:paradoxes pending a fuller explanation of:
*honour killing is by definition self-contradictory
Did you mean that it's "dishonourable" to murder a family member, or what? (Not arguing that point, just wondering if that's what you meant.) --Uncle Ed 16:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Paradox