Talk:Highway 2 (Israel)

message: Some relevant sources I haven't had time to go over:
* http://www.news1.co.il/Archive/001-D-249389-00.html
* http://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3417466,00.html
—Ynhockey (Talk) 19:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Materials

message: Since when is Pardes Hanna-Karkur a major city on kvish 2? --Sreifa (talk) 12:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Pardes Hanna-Karkur and Zikhron Ya'aqov are boldly removed. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Major cities 

message: This highway starts at the Heil HaShiryon Interchange, not the Glilot Interchange. What was the source? -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Start of highway

message: Should the table used in the Interchanges section be the one in current use or one suggested by MOS:RJL as can be seen in this revision? --Gonnym (talk) 18:34, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see false claima in the meaning column which is a translation of the name. All the road signs use transliterated Hebrew to English, however each Hebrew interchange has a translation and underlying meaning.Icewhiz (talk) 18:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  You can't claim the meaning of "Yakum Interchange" is "He shall rise". Even if that was the literal translation of the place, that isn't the meaning of the interchange. Also, you've given no sources to prove that is the meaning of the place (which Yakum doesn't either). That's a false claim. Giving 3 exits with the km marker of 11.2 which is obviously incorrect (which was addressed in the previous revision) is a false claim. Giving false names for interchanges with Wingate Interchange and Udim Interchange as examples, are another example of false information in this current version, compared to the one reverted. Interchange types have zero meaning to anyone other than those who edit this page. I have no idea what the picture there even mean. To address your comments from the survey section - what factual issues did the previous version have? Also, just to be clear, the "Destinations" column which was empty in the previous revision, is supposed to be filled out with information similar to "crossing roads" (just using the MOS:RJL accepted terminology and position). Also, previous version correctly acknowledged this is an English Wikipedia with English names coming first and Hebrew names second (this is a comparably smaller issue, but you've obviously decided to revert all instead of addressing the specific issue you were opposed).--Gonnym (talk) 19:03, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

text: Also, I'd like to point out that this is a proxy war as Atefrat who had the discussion me, WP:STEALTH sent 7 emails to editors via wikipedia, Icewhiz being one of them. --Gonnym (talk) 19:19, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

text: Could  and any future "neither" vote please elaborate on what specifically you would suggest doing?--Gonnym (talk) 07:39, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty simple really.  The solution is to add a junction list that complies with RJL and remove whatever else is there currently. –Fredddie™ 11:59, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  if it was simple we wouldn't have been here. I would have thought that this sandbox version (note that this is the same exact format as used in the RFC revision just with road data added, the column was there) complies with it, but your and Imzadi1979's comments say it doesn't. So what specifically should be changed? --Gonnym (talk) 13:00, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  the sandbox version looks much better. Long term, the distance columns (and yes, ideally there should be two with the km value converted into miles) should be right-aligned, and ideally, they should have a consistent number of decimal places. I might also suggest putting the Hebrew text on a separate line within the cell and dropping the "Hebrew:" text from each line as redundant. (I think an intelligent reader reading an article about an Israeli topic can discern that the text is Hebrew.) That would minimize the total width of that column, allowing other columns to expand. I might also suggest putting the meaning of the names in footnotes, but I'd need to see how that looks to decide if that's better or not. Lastly, MOS:RJL requires the use of a color key at the bottom of a table if it's using the colors. In the US, we use templates to build our tables, and we'd have  to create the key required. Additionally, if the table doesn't provide the converted distances, per MOS:CONVERSIONS, that bottom template supplies the required conversion values. Imzadi 1979 →  13:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

text: I have an additional comment about icon usage. In the US, we use small graphics of the highway markers in our junction lists, which are immediately followed by the name of the highway being represented. Because of this, the name serves as a sort of caption for the graphic, and because our  formats it with |alt=|link=, the graphics would be skipped by screen readers. However, the other icons currently in use in the Type column have no textual explanation for their meaning whatsoever. Some of them are displayed too small to be of any practical use without clicking on each. As others have noted, the type of an interchange is an esoteric piece of information that we really don't need to include in most cases, and if we did, it's listed in the notes column. Imzadi 1979 →  14:18, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've updated the sandbox with your comments including the color and distance bottom template and the split English/Hebrew name and removed "Hebrew:". I've tried adding Jcttop but I'm not sure how to get it to add only name without "Exit" or "Old" unless one of those is required. If it is, then I have no idea what to fill out for that column. --Gonnym (talk) 15:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The final product will look something like User:Happy5214/sandbox/Highway 2 (Israel) (which has the termini filled in with information from Google Maps). Assuming there are no issues with that format, I'll create wrapper templates like  and  to abstract the internal parameters to those core templates (which aren't meant to be used directly in articles). -happy5214 02:53, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I realized after I saved my last reply that  already exists. I had to make a small edit to it, but I've replaced the rows in my sandbox with that template. -happy5214 03:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not good. The district column is meaningless in Israel (as there are several competing district maps - each ministry has a different one), and the Hebrew (and meaning thereof) is important.Icewhiz (talk) 03:57, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  That looks great. I do agree with Icewhiz that the district in Israel is less important (I was trying to find the "classic" one that I know of in the govmap.gov.il website and found several others). I think that for the "name" column, maybe add an option to add the Hebrew name so it would be formatted as (name in Hebrew) in a separate line under the English name (especially as those entries don't have articles of their own, compared to the location entries, which do). I don't agree that a meaning column should be added though. --Gonnym (talk) 07:40, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  if the district column is meaningless, why do so many Israeli city articles begin like this: "<city> (<Hebrew translation>) is a city in the <district> District..."?  Why does the location map show them?  Why do the districts even have articles?  Seems like we have an awful lot of verifiable information for no reason if it is meaningless. –Fredddie™ 12:25, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to add context - The map Fredddie is referring to can be found on the official map with the Ministry of Interior districts filter. --Gonnym (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why? Mainly since people copy-paste structures from other countries without regard to the peculiarities of Israel - and I'll note that quite a few of Israeli articles do not have districts. Specifying a district per junction is simply excessive and meaningless here, and is not done for other roads. The district division for the ministry of transportation in Israel - see here (Hebrew) is completely different from the Interior ministry division.13:21, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: For context - govmap with all the district types it recognizes by a specific keyword (and I probably missed a few that use a different keyword). Cities are subordinated to the Interior ministry, so maybe it makes sense to  mention the Interior ministry division, however roads are not under the purview of the ministry of Interior.Icewhiz (talk) 13:29, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

text: I'm in substantial agreement with Happy5214 regarding etymologies. If they're really that significant, they should be mentioned in the route description and cited there. Imzadi 1979 →  17:33, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC: Which table should be used 

message: *current use. Better looking, some factual issues, but the main thing are the crossing roads (which are highly significant in the Israeli road system - more than the towns) and interchange type.Icewhiz (talk) 18:43, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: The current table used in this article does not comply with several guidelines including MOS:RJL, MOS:DTT and with policy WP:V, instead opting to use a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS to create a new style which does not cite any sources and uses false claims (the whole "meaning" column), includes columns that have no meaning not only to visual impaired readers but to all readers (the "Type" column). The current editors, instead of changing any issues they had with the previous revision just revert back to this current table, preventing any correcting of the table and exhibiting WP:OWNERSHIP of this article. --Gonnym (talk) 18:43, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see false claima in the meaning column which is a translation of the name. All the road signs use transliterated Hebrew to English, however each Hebrew interchange has a translation and underlying meaning.Icewhiz (talk) 18:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  You can't claim the meaning of "Yakum Interchange" is "He shall rise". Even if that was the literal translation of the place, that isn't the meaning of the interchange. Also, you've given no sources to prove that is the meaning of the place (which Yakum doesn't either). That's a false claim. Giving 3 exits with the km marker of 11.2 which is obviously incorrect (which was addressed in the previous revision) is a false claim. Giving false names for interchanges with Wingate Interchange and Udim Interchange as examples, are another example of false information in this current version, compared to the one reverted. Interchange types have zero meaning to anyone other than those who edit this page. I have no idea what the picture there even mean. To address your comments from the survey section - what factual issues did the previous version have? Also, just to be clear, the "Destinations" column which was empty in the previous revision, is supposed to be filled out with information similar to "crossing roads" (just using the MOS:RJL accepted terminology and position). Also, previous version correctly acknowledged this is an English Wikipedia with English names coming first and Hebrew names second (this is a comparably smaller issue, but you've obviously decided to revert all instead of addressing the specific issue you were opposed).--Gonnym (talk) 19:03, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

text: Also, I'd like to point out that this is a proxy war as Atefrat who had the discussion me, WP:STEALTH sent 7 emails to editors via wikipedia, Icewhiz being one of them. --Gonnym (talk) 19:19, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

text: Could  and any future "neither" vote please elaborate on what specifically you would suggest doing?--Gonnym (talk) 07:39, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pretty simple really.  The solution is to add a junction list that complies with RJL and remove whatever else is there currently. –Fredddie™ 11:59, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  if it was simple we wouldn't have been here. I would have thought that this sandbox version (note that this is the same exact format as used in the RFC revision just with road data added, the column was there) complies with it, but your and Imzadi1979's comments say it doesn't. So what specifically should be changed? --Gonnym (talk) 13:00, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  the sandbox version looks much better. Long term, the distance columns (and yes, ideally there should be two with the km value converted into miles) should be right-aligned, and ideally, they should have a consistent number of decimal places. I might also suggest putting the Hebrew text on a separate line within the cell and dropping the "Hebrew:" text from each line as redundant. (I think an intelligent reader reading an article about an Israeli topic can discern that the text is Hebrew.) That would minimize the total width of that column, allowing other columns to expand. I might also suggest putting the meaning of the names in footnotes, but I'd need to see how that looks to decide if that's better or not. Lastly, MOS:RJL requires the use of a color key at the bottom of a table if it's using the colors. In the US, we use templates to build our tables, and we'd have  to create the key required. Additionally, if the table doesn't provide the converted distances, per MOS:CONVERSIONS, that bottom template supplies the required conversion values. Imzadi 1979 →  13:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

text: I have an additional comment about icon usage. In the US, we use small graphics of the highway markers in our junction lists, which are immediately followed by the name of the highway being represented. Because of this, the name serves as a sort of caption for the graphic, and because our  formats it with |alt=|link=, the graphics would be skipped by screen readers. However, the other icons currently in use in the Type column have no textual explanation for their meaning whatsoever. Some of them are displayed too small to be of any practical use without clicking on each. As others have noted, the type of an interchange is an esoteric piece of information that we really don't need to include in most cases, and if we did, it's listed in the notes column. Imzadi 1979 →  14:18, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  I've updated the sandbox with your comments including the color and distance bottom template and the split English/Hebrew name and removed "Hebrew:". I've tried adding Jcttop but I'm not sure how to get it to add only name without "Exit" or "Old" unless one of those is required. If it is, then I have no idea what to fill out for that column. --Gonnym (talk) 15:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  The final product will look something like User:Happy5214/sandbox/Highway 2 (Israel) (which has the termini filled in with information from Google Maps). Assuming there are no issues with that format, I'll create wrapper templates like  and  to abstract the internal parameters to those core templates (which aren't meant to be used directly in articles). -happy5214 02:53, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I realized after I saved my last reply that  already exists. I had to make a small edit to it, but I've replaced the rows in my sandbox with that template. -happy5214 03:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Not good. The district column is meaningless in Israel (as there are several competing district maps - each ministry has a different one), and the Hebrew (and meaning thereof) is important.Icewhiz (talk) 03:57, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  That looks great. I do agree with Icewhiz that the district in Israel is less important (I was trying to find the "classic" one that I know of in the govmap.gov.il website and found several others). I think that for the "name" column, maybe add an option to add the Hebrew name so it would be formatted as (name in Hebrew) in a separate line under the English name (especially as those entries don't have articles of their own, compared to the location entries, which do). I don't agree that a meaning column should be added though. --Gonnym (talk) 07:40, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  if the district column is meaningless, why do so many Israeli city articles begin like this: "<city> (<Hebrew translation>) is a city in the <district> District..."?  Why does the location map show them?  Why do the districts even have articles?  Seems like we have an awful lot of verifiable information for no reason if it is meaningless. –Fredddie™ 12:25, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to add context - The map Fredddie is referring to can be found on the official map with the Ministry of Interior districts filter. --Gonnym (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text:  Why? Mainly since people copy-paste structures from other countries without regard to the peculiarities of Israel - and I'll note that quite a few of Israeli articles do not have districts. Specifying a district per junction is simply excessive and meaningless here, and is not done for other roads. The district division for the ministry of transportation in Israel - see here (Hebrew) is completely different from the Interior ministry division.13:21, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: For context - govmap with all the district types it recognizes by a specific keyword (and I probably missed a few that use a different keyword). Cities are subordinated to the Interior ministry, so maybe it makes sense to  mention the Interior ministry division, however roads are not under the purview of the ministry of Interior.Icewhiz (talk) 13:29, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

text: I'm in substantial agreement with Happy5214 regarding etymologies. If they're really that significant, they should be mentioned in the route description and cited there. Imzadi 1979 →  17:33, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Threaded discussion

message: The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:54, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion