Talk:Longy School of Music of Bard College

message: This is an encyclopedia article, not an advertisement for the school or an alumni page. Please re-write in a neutral tone, avoiding peacock terms. Also do not use "we". It's unencyclopedic and it strongly suggests a conflict of interest by the authors, which reduces rather than enhances the article's credibility. Thanks, Voceditenore 14:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Tone of recent edits

message: Voceditenore, thank you for taking an interest in our project!  I did not even think to check the the talk page on here until your name came up in class the other day.  I have been working hard to improve the neutrality of my comments, and I figured that simply updating the history would be easy enough.  If you have any more suggestions, I'm all ears!  Deep-fried twinkie (talk) 18:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi, I've fixed the referencing in the article. On the whole, Wikipedia prefers footnotes rather than the embedded links you were using because of the difficulties in associating them with their appropriate full references. I also removed repetitive external links, and moved some to the references section.  You'll find this article useful: Wikipedia:Citing sources, especially Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Footnote_referencing for a guide of how to mark up the footnotes. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 02:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that looks so much better!  I knew there was a way to do footnotes, but I hadn't taken the time to learn how to do the code properly.  I'll share the links you provided with the others.  It's very helpful! Deep-fried twinkie (talk) 19:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent Edits

message: The pictures look great! Zoe zelda (talk) 12:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pictures 

message: Reversion is primarily a tool for quickly removing vandalism. Please do not use it for content disputes! At least 3 editors have engaged in this in the last few days resulting in the loss of valuable content including images, as well as the loss of considerable work put into formatting the references properly and copy-editing for neutral tone in interim edits. 
There was definitely a problem with the overly promotional tone of some of the text, as I said above. There was also a problem with the unnecessary and uninformative lists of every course taught at the school. However, the way to solve this is to copy-edit the areas which need it - not wholescale reversions. Wholescale reversions are both lazy and destructive. 
I have now re-edited the article to restore the photographs of and text concerning the concert hall and the Rey-Waldstein Building. I've reformatted the references, toned down the promotional language which keeps popping up, and restructured the headings. I fully support the removal of the material about mission statements etc. and the endless lists of courses. I have left them out of this new version. Any significant removal of material from now on needs to be explained and discussed on the talk page first. Voceditenore (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Reverting is a blunt instrument

message: It can be useful information for the article to cover the programs of study offered, provided it doesn't read like the school's prospectus and avoids repetitiousness. I've now added a concise section on Programs of Study, briefly outlining the types of degrees/diplomas offered and the majors available. The section is referenced to the Longy School's web page which describes the programmes in much greater detail (for readers who are interested). Note also that I have removed the red link on Collaborative piano since red links by their very nature are uninformative and instead linked it to Accompaniment which discusses how the terms 'collaborative pianist' or 'collaborative artist' are increasingly used by music schools to replace the term 'accompanist'. Similarly, in the absence of a specific article on Modern American music. I have linked it to Contemporary classical music (the meaning of 'American' in the context of the phrase can be inferred). Voceditenore (talk) 11:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Programs of study

message: An awful lot of names have been added to to this list - virtually the whole faculty. Are they all notable in the sense of Wikipedia's criteria for notability? They are also red-linked. To the editor who added them, are you planning to write articles on all of them in the near future? Do you have enough reliable independent sources to verify their notability in those articles? If not, the names should be removed. The current result is that the faculty looks like a collection of non-notable people. The normal practice for these kinds of lists on Wikipedia is to restrict them to people who already have Wikipedia articles. I'm removing the red-linked names from the article and transferring them to this talk page. When any of them have Wikipedia articles, they can be re-added to the list in the main article. Voceditenore (talk) 05:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable teachers at the Longy School of Music

message: When they have articles, they should be added to the list of notable faculty in the main article:
*Norman Bolter (trombonist)
*Peter Cassino (jazz pianist)
*Wayman Chin (Dean of the Conservatory, pianist)
*Mihail Jojatu (cellist)
*Terry King (cellist)
*Malcolm Lowe (violinist)
*Lisa Parker (Dalcroze Eurhythmics)
*Donna Roll (opera director)
*Victor Rosenbaum (pianist)
*Judy Ross (music theory)
*Karyl Ryczek (soprano)
*Peter Sykes organist, harpsichordist
*Roger Tapping (violist)
*Robert Willoughby (flutist)
*Michael Zaretsky (violist)
:Voceditenore (talk) 05:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: List of faculty members who do not have Wikipedia articles

message: The following articles on notable faculty members have problems which should also be addressed:
*Kenneth Amis (No references at all)
*Charlie Banacos (No references from reliable, third-party publications)
*Phoebe Carrai (No references at all)
*Jonathan Cohler (Multiple problems including conflict of interest editing)
*Kenneth Radnofsky (No references from reliable, third-party publications)
*Eric Rosenblith (No references at all)
*Roman Totenberg (No references at all)
:Voceditenore (talk) 06:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Articles on faculty members needing attention

message: This dispute reminds me of another one over Kathleen Battle's dismissal from the Metropolitan Opera a few years back, an event which ended her career at that opera house and was widely reported in the press. One editor at first didn't want any mention if it all. Other editors then over-compensated by making it a big deal in the article complete with a separate sub-heading Firing from Metropolitan Opera. What ensued was a "battle of the quotes". In an effort to achieve "balance", more and more pro and con quotes were added until the there was a huge paragraph, completely out of proportion to the rest of the article and her career. Not to mention lengthy edit wars which resulted in the repeated loss of referencing and formatting, much ill-will and a massive waste of time for non-involved editors in sorting it out.
MarcLorra, and 18.100.0.76 (I'm assuming you are the same person editing this article under a series of IP addresses that begin with 18.100...  and originate from MIT), both of you need to stand back from this issue and stop reverting each other. You are both edit-warring  and are in danger of getting blocked. This edit completely removed the referencing and formatting to boot. 
I've been bold and rewritten the paragraph to simply report what happened, in the order in which it happened. I have left out all quotes from involved people, both pro and con.  In the great scheme of things, these are unneccessary detail and the Boston Globe article is available if readers want to pursue this. There has been no strike or any other industrial action. The negotiations with Bard are still in an early stage. There will a lot of water under the bridge before next autumn. The level of minutiae that had been included was inappropriate. I've also removed the sub-heading completely which I also consider inappropriate, for the reasons I've outlined above.
I'm going to ask you both to to reflect on my version and lay-off monkeying with it for at least 48 hours. I'm also going to ask you both to propose any changes to it on the talk page, before you add them to the article. You both feel strongly about the school and its future. But edit-warring,  badly written, overly detailed accounts (both of which were skewed to a particular angle and fell into the trap of WP:Recentism) and a great big ugly tag disputing the article's neutrality are not the way to go. It reflects poorly on both sides, and on Wikipedia. How about if you both go off, do some research and collaborate on writing a badly needed article on Georges Longy, the school's founder, instead. , , . 
Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 09:46, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Voceditenore, thanks for being the voice of reason on this and for taking the time to draft this paragraph. I'm in agreement with your comments, especially about recentism and excessive detail. I'm still not sure that the events of recent months warrant an inclusion in this article that otherwise takes a long-term and mile-high view of the institution, but I am fine with what you have written and would agree to have the neutrality warning lifted. MarcLorra (talk) 10:53, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes thank you voceditenore. I think the changes you made were the right thing to do.4meter4 (talk) 12:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your re-edit is mostly fine with me, and thank you for your help.  One serious quibble though.  Your version states "37 of its 188 teachers (all of whom are part-time) being laid off or re-assigned", but I do believe the Globe article states that all 37 were laid off - none was merely reassigned.  I can make that change, but if you do it, it may be more peaceful.  Thanks again.18.100.0.73 (talk) 13:09, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made the change – 37 staff were actually laid off (confirmed here). I've also removed the neutrality tag. I think the 2010 developments are worth including, briefly and neutrally, as part of Longy's history. The merger and restructuring constitute a fairly big step in the institution's evolution. I hope that both of you, who appear to be new to Wikipedia editing, will decide to stay on and help develop this and other articles in the future. You might also want to check out Wikipedia's Classical Music Project. We need editors with expertise in classical music and related subjects. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality issue: a way forward 

message: Both versions are referenced to Brian P. Nanos, "Hearing scheduled for Cambridge's Longy School of Music labor dispute", Cambridge Chronicle, October 25, 2010 and National Labor Relations Board, Amended Complaint and Notice of Hearing. 
;Original version:
: On October 15, 2010, the General Counsel of the National Labor Relations Board issued a formal complaint against the Longy School, including a finding of "reasonable cause" to conclude that Zorn had "implicitly threatened employees with unspecified reprisals if they supported the Union and were not loyal to Respondent" (i.e. Zorn).  A hearing on the complaint is scheduled for December 2010.
;Revised version:
:In October 2010, the National Labor Relations Board found reasonable cause to hold a hearing on whether the Longy School of Music had failed to negotiate with its employees union before it terminated the contracts of some teaching staff and changed the job descriptions of others. A hearing on the complaint was scheduled for December 2010.
– Voceditenore (talk) 10:28, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Looking back on your comments above, it suddenly struck me that you have actually not given one single reason for preferring your version over mine.  Can you give one?  If you can, it might be possible to reach a compromise, don't you think? Muzikant68 (talk) 16:45, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

text: This seems fine to me—much more accurate and balanced. My only suggested would be to make "an unfair labor practice" plural, i.e. "unfair labor practices". Voceditenore (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Text discussion

message: Lists of notable faculty/students in Wikipedia university articles are meant to contain only the names of people who already have articles on Wikipedia or who are so unambiguously notable that they should have an article. I have removed the recently added  name of Peter Cassino from the list. My initial search indicates that he would be unlikely to pass the criteria at either WP:MUSICBIO, WP:PROF, or WP:GNG and the article has already been deleted once. Anyone contemplating re-creating such an article should read those guidelines carefully. I note that the editor who added Cassino completely removed Jonathan Cohler. If Cohler is no longer a faculty member, then he should be moved to the list of past teachers, not removed completely. I have re-added him to the list of past teachers. Voceditenore (talk) 07:58, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable teachers 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Longy School of Music of Bard College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080109155937/http://www.longy.edu/alumni/alumni_awards.htm to http://www.longy.edu/alumni/alumni_awards.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified