Talk:Rib vault

message: Is it only because of the presence of molding? --76.102.243.117 (talk) 20:44, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: In a groin vault, the entire arch is structural (weight-bearing). Only the ribs are structural in a rib vault, allowing the rest of the ceiling to be much lighter. WCCasey (talk) 23:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This claim that the ribs are the main structural element is simply not correct, though it was a widely held view in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. In fact the ribs have almost no static/structural role once the vault is complete and in a number of cases don't even make contact with the rest of the vault (or 'web' as it is known). Ribs do however play a key role during the construction of the vault  as the builders only need enough wooden centering to support the ribs - the webs are then built onto planks supported on top of the ribs (a method which was successfully tested in the 1920's during the reconstruction of the vault of Sens cathedral following first world war bomb damage). For details of how rib-vaulting works see the opening chapters of Christopher Wilson's "The Gothic Cathedral" or for a more specialist study, John Fitchen's classic text "The construction of Gothic cathedrals: a study of medieval vault" (1981). StuartLondon (talk) 11:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  How's this different from groin vault? 

message: In the first sentence of section "Effect of rib vaulting" it can be read that
:... also additional space was provided for visiting saints and angels.
It's a joke or a particular and esoteric dialectal variant in the English language allows for saint and angel to have a different meaning than the usual one? Carlotm (talk) 05:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, never noticed that before. I'm not sure if that was meant to be a joke or if someone was quoting some unreferenced source. As that first sentence was poorly written, I copyedited it, then removed the angelic visit bit, at least for now. I translated a few books on medieval architecture and have never heard of the upper reaches being meant for such visits. But now I'm curious... Eric talk 15:47, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Angels and saints were visiting medieval churches!? 

message: The article mentions "fig. 9" several times. Where is this figure? GS3 (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, good eye. It appears that the bulk of this article was copied directly from pages 959 and 960 of the Encyclopedia Brittanica, in this case a bit crudely. This source may be an exception to WP's general policy against copying and pasting from other sites. I'll ping some other editors who'll likely know more than I regarding this. But in any case, those fig. 9s  should go, or be replaced with refs to analogous images. Thanks for bringing this up.     Eric talk 00:42, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The 1911 EB is ok to just copy - look at the bottom of the article & you'll see the template attributing the content. Very many WP articles began as pure copies of EB 1911 & lots have changed little since. On this subject it shouldn't have dated too much, but it is of course not ideal.  Certainly "fig 9" should go (or actually be added, which we could do, or substituted).  Hope that helps, Johnbod (talk) 02:43, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: There's also a reference to "Plate I. fig. 16" that should be removed. 2607:EA00:107:3C06:F436:D349:B475:209 (talk) 19:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, fixed it. Eric talk 19:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where is "figure 9"? 

message: Hello all, I saw your names in this article's history and on WikiProject Architecture, and am pinging you for input. An anonymous editor using several Italian IPs has been reverting my revert of the addition of an image from the chancel of the duomo in Cefalù (accompanied by a linguistically challenged caption). Edit history here. While it is a nice picture, I do not find the Cefalù image to be an improvement over the previous primary image from Reims Cathedral. The latter is more clear and representative in my opinion. As I do not want to engage in an edit war, I'm posting here to seek opinions and/or help from others interested in the article. Does anyone know a procedure to ask for an admin's input when the edit-warrior is apparently one person using multiple IPs? I did not find anything in the guidance for dealing with that. Thanks in advance. Eric talk 17:38, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear wikipedians...I understand the question ... I noticed your post   and  and later   .... but the two images have been maintained in the text .... mainly because the image of Cefalu is very important in this text ...--79.47.83.108 (talk) 18:00, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear anonymous editor: The links you provide in your above post are to article edits, not posts. This is a collaborative encyclopedia. We discuss issues in posts like these on talkpages. You have not provided a good reason for your multiple reverts of my edits. Nor have you provided a source for your claim regarding the rib vaulting at Cefalù. It may well be considered the earliest example of a Gothic rib vault, but you have not demonstrated that. In any case, the Reims picture gives a better view of the vaulting detail. Eric talk 19:28, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cefalù image 

message: A recent edit to the article asserts that the rib vault was inspired by Islamic architecture, but gives no examples or illustrations.  Unless this can be illustrated with pictures and examples of rib vaults predating Durham Cathedral and St. Denis, I respectfully think this should be removed.  Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 19:02, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, we don't need "pictures and examples", we need WP:RS. That is how WP works. Johnbod (talk) 19:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I remember learning that medieval European pointed arch design was inspired by Moorish or Middle-Eastern architecture, not sure if it was specifically Islamic. Eric talk 19:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Arches & vaults are different. This weighty paper may shed some light], and this is more accessible. Another heavy one.  Crossley's notes 4-6 are interesting. I'm not at home in this sort of area myself. SiefkinDR, perhaps it's time you put up some equally specialized sources saying the opposite?  I presume that after the lead this article is all EB 1911? It certainly needs updating and referencing.  Johnbod (talk) 19:47, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, that was a quick comment I made. Did not mean to imply they are the same. I used to translate books on Romanesque architecture in another life, so I should know off the top of my head about the origins of both arches and vaults, but my head is much older than it was when I did that work. Will look it up when I get more time. Eric talk 23:39, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rib Vault and Islamic architecture 

message: I'm afraid that I find the following recently-added sentence very confusing: "...the new use of rib vaults demonstrates the skill of the masons and the grandeur of the new ideas circulating at the introduction of Islamic architecture in the eight century,[1][2] and then adopted in Gothic architecture from the end of the eleventh century."   What is the "grandeur of new ideas?"  What buildings of Islamic architecture inspired the rib vaults of Gothic architecture?   What evidence is there that Gothic architecture and rib vaults in particular were directly inspired by Islamic architecture?  What sources mention this?  This unfortunately sounds to me very much like original research.  Respectfully, SiefkinDR (talk) 19:48, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for including the image of the ceiling of Cordoba Cathedral, now I have a better idea of what you're talking about.  It would be good to include an image like this in the article, , along with the date the vault was constructed.  I'm not sure it's comparable to the vaults in the early Gothic cathedrals, but it certainly gives a clearer idea of what you're talking about. Do you know the year that the vaulting was constructed? Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 20:13, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: After looking at some other images, I think the Cordoba ceiling may actually be a groin vault rather than a rib vault, but I'm not an expert on the subject.  Groin vaults go back much earlier, to Roman times, and it would make sense that they would be known in the Islamic world. Cheers,SiefkinDR (talk) 20:26, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

text: I don't see they are saying that at all. At the very least, they hold the roof up, which is as much as large numbers of Gothic vaults do (see the roof at Notre-Dame).  Being load-bearing, as far as the general structure goes, is not a requirement of Gothic rib-vaults.  Most of Crossley's very detailed account in his Yale History of Art volume is visible online, & should be read (and used as a ref) - see his Introduction & Chapter 1.  Pretty dense though. Johnbod (talk) 13:08, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Are you saying that there is no difference between the function of rib vaults in Islamic architecture and in Gothic architecture? SiefkinDR (talk) 19:05, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but if you are calling vaults that only support the local ceiling "decorative", then that applies to vast numbers of Gothic vaults, in cathedrals as much as elsewhere. See btw Stuart London's 2011 cmt above - he has a doctorate on this subject. Johnbod (talk) 02:34, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The rib vault and Islamic architecture 

message: The new lead paragraph needs to be re-written in clear English, so that it summarizes the topics of the article.  Thanks. SiefkinDR (talk) 09:13, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed! Johnbod (talk) 11:41, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: There are a number of new problems and quality issues with the article as it is now, and with the related articles. it's probably easier to discuss them one at a time, rather than all at once.  But whichever you prefer. SiefkinDR (talk) 19:13, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a big neutrality issue in the lead.  The phrase  "the new use of rib vaults demonstrates the skill of the masons and the grandeur of the new ideas circulating at the introduction of Islamic architecture in the eight century" was inserted into the leads of three articles, Gothic architecture, rib vaults and vaulting.  It's not neutral, it's promoting a point of view.  It's also not clear why the same sentence should be in the lead of three articles about Gothic architecture, rather than Islamic architecture.  It needs fixing. cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 07:30, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

text: The problem is simply that the place of origin of the vault as stated here is disputed. SiefkinDR (talk) 18:36, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please rewrite lead 

message: I think that Stellar vault should probably redirect to Lierne (vault), which mentions it prominently in the lede, rather than here, where it gets one brief mention in the body text. Thoughts? Moriwen (talk) 01:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Makes sense to me. Eric talk 15:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Stellar vault" redirect