Talk:White guilt

message: I've taken a shot at revising this entry for a variety of reasons; mainly to remove weasel wording, POV statements, and generally awful writing.  While it now reads as far more neutral and informative as before, in general there I don't think the topic really has that much going for it - white guilt is too nebulous a concept and is generally dismissed by everyone except a few "intellectuals" as being just so much PC garbage left over from the 1990's. Hmoul 05:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Revising

message: It should be noted on the page that not all European countries were involved in the African slave trade.  In fact the nationals of a number of European countries have no ancestral ties to the African slave trade at all.
--Rah29 21:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "White" Guilt 

message: Attempted to fix this op-ed piece, um i mean article. I figured since the whole thing is somebody's opinion might as well throw my opinion in too.--Bigplankton 01:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudopsychology 

message: European countries that didn't engage in colonialism or those European nations who were persecuted or had lower status in European colonial powers during the age of colonialism ? Is there a position on that ? Or do proponents of this theory believe all European countries and people engaged in colonialism ? Also there is no such thing as "Europeans"-there are Germans, Romanians, Hungarians, French, Russians, Poles. You have to note which national group from European continent you mean instead of writing "Europeans", which may mean an Albanian, French, Irish or Russian person. All of whom have different histories.
--Molobo 23:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about  

message: Are there any credible sources for this or is this just an editorial? In Portugal there have been no requests for reparations, but that might just be for the lack of  deep pockets and common law to allow for any indemnities to be payed. this is a nice op-ed piece, but other than that, I'm not too sure. Just my 2 euro-cents Galf 13:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Souces

message: Should not the jews be included in list of groups that have had violence perpetrated against them by the whites? Jewish people make white people feel more guilty than any of the other groups.
:Indeed, jewish people deserve the guilt of a society that is frequently anti-semitic; however, your second statement reeks of privilege and bias. Rmilligan 06:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  *smirk* To say the least. Guldenat 00:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jews are usually considered white in Euro-American contexts, especially the Ashkenazim who are the majority. Sephardim, like other mediterranean peoples, used to be considered non-white but now, not so much. I don't know about Mizrahim. In any case, I've never heard "white guilt" used to refer to anti-semitism. <eleland/talkedits> 18:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They are chiefly considered that in the Anglo world (US, Canada, Australia, South Africa, the UK), not in Euro-America. The question whether Jews are white was raised rather often in the beginning of the 20th century due to their extensive immigration to the US. In general, the answer is dependant on whether or not one considers Middle Easterners white. --Humanophage (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: white is not a concept that exists independent of context.  whether or not fair-skinned jews are considered white depends on which part of the world they are.  a test to see if they might be considered white is whether or not they are extended white privilege.  there are dark-skinned and very dark-skinned jews; this makes the situation even less clear.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stoneself (talk • contribs) 19:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

text: The Exodus Myth is nothing more than a myth created to demonstrate the power of their God. There is no historical basis to their alleged enslavement by the Egyptians. Know this.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.69.20.128 (talk) 15:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about the jews? 

message: Is it accurate for the article to describe "white guilt" entirely as a response to "past oppression" rather than (at least in some white people) a psychological reaction to recognition of white privilege in the present?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.22.83.114 (talk) 18:43, August 27, 2007 (UTC) 
:No, it's not accurate. It's the opinion of the author, and it has no place on Wikipedia. Rmilligan 11:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Past oppression" vs. present privilege 

message: this entire article to me screams "reverse" racism and racist point of view. the concept of "white guilt" probably does desesrve an article, but this article is so corrupted and biased, it needs to be completely rewritten IMO. R.westermeyer 20:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No such thing as "reverse" racism, it either is or it isn't. But I do agree; this is one of the stupidest things I have ever read. I can't even imagine how this ridiculous idea ever came to be, I have never known another caucasian person who feels "guilty" about what happened to Africans in this country, largely because none of these people had anything to do with it. "Guilt" should not be confused with compassion, caring or empathy. (The groups and individuals who actually committed atrocities against African Americans throughout our history apparently felt very little guilt about it.) The abolishment of Slavery, Civil Rights, the removal of Jim Crow laws, Affirmative Action etc, were collective, organized attempts to right historical wrongs. I do not see where "guilt" enters into it. I hope there are some OTHER 'sources' on this subject, because this is one stupid idea. I agree it needs to be re-written.BGMNYC (talk) 06:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: How would you name the call of the Archbishop of Canterbury for Brits to pay reparations to descendants of slaves living in Britain? --Humanophage (talk) 16:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite 

message: In the current version I don't see a single unlikely claim. It all appears to be neutral and uncontroversial statements which few would disagree with. Of course, it needs proper sourcing, but I don't see the need for a second "orange-level" warning box. <eleland/talkedits> 18:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:OR header 

message: "Post-war  guilt" is a phrase often used in Britain.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.223.218 (talk) 14:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Post-imperial guilt" is sometimes used.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.116.135 (talk) 12:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Another: "postcolonial guilt". Equinox (talk) 16:26, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note 

message: sunny hundal is not an RS.  it is an assertion without any back up.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stoneself (talk • contribs) 03:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The Guardian is the RS - are you implying that Sunny Hundal did not make the statements that are quoted in the article? We are clearly free to put POV statements into an article as long as they are correctly attributed to the person making them and that the article overall presents the topic in an NPOV manner. We can argue about whether or not Sunny's opinion is notable enough or representative enough to belong in the article, but it is not a violation of OR- OR is a wikipedia editor coming to a conclusion. This is Sunny coming to a conclusion -which is what we are supposed to use. (admitedly, if one were a supporter of the concept that there is no white guilt, one would want somthing more than a columnist to make the case using no data, but that really is not an issue for inclusion in Wikipedia - and should we find a better source making this claim, this source can be removed)-- The Red Pen of Doom 03:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  wait... you're saying we should report anything that people say about white guilt as long as it's in an RS?  that's pretty poor criteria.  if we use that criteria, this article is going to fill up with opinions.  the concept of white privilege is an academic/scholarly most of the other points in the white guilt are come the academic social science uses.  if you want to include something like sunny hundal is stating, then sunny hundal had better be the RS.   otherwise we're going to end up with all kinds of unsubstantiated opinions about white guilt include in the white guilt article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stoneself (talk • contribs) 08:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I am not saying that, Wikipedia policy is saying that: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."  If you want to take the position that "white guilt" is a specific academic concept and the "white guilt" that Sunny is talking about is merely a colloquialism and not substantially the same subject, please provide your reasoning, but at first glance that does not appear to be the case.-- The Red Pen of Doom 00:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

text: Skin color is no indication of reliability, so no.Jeff5102 (talk) 10:03, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  criticism: Sunny Hundal 

message: What's wrong about that? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_guilt&diff=prev&oldid=348393349 -- Linksnational (talk) 16:12, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's pointless trivia.radek (talk) 21:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Blind side 

message: Should it be mentioned that several people have suggested that white guilt directly led to the election of Barack Hussein Obama?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by NathanForrest101 (talk • contribs) 20:00, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: But Obama is white...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.198.77.49 (talk) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

text: If there are reliable sources that discuss it, it can be included. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Role in 2008 election 

message: "A  report in the Washington Post from 1978 describes the exploitation of white guilt by con artists: "Telephone and mail solicitors, trading on 'white guilt' and on government pressure to advertise in minority-oriented publications, are inducing thousands of businessmen to buy ads in phony publications.""
A three decade old report from a newspaper about con artists does not deserve its own paragraph, Wikipedia is not a news service.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.2.199.74 (talk) 22:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Con Artists? 

message: An IP editor () restored a sectionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_guilt&diff=765910563&oldid=755332192 that they claimed to already be in the article, and was removed, thus the restoration. They, however, did not provide any diffs to the removal, nor could I digging through the history. Can the IP editor, or somebody else, please help me verify this? Thanks. Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball 03:22, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section restored 

message: I am inclined to say that the word “Cuckservative” doesn’t belong in the See-also-section and needs to be removed. The Anti-Defamation League says that the term is used by white supremacists as a synonym of the pre-existing phrase "race traitors," but even then it is only marginally relevant to this article. Any objections? Best regards,Jeff5102 (talk) 10:02, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, that makes sense. Many more than just the ADL have discussed the term's racist history, but its connection to white guilt specifically isn't intuitive. Grayfell (talk) 03:05, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Cuckservative" 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Post-war guilt is something that ought to have a separate article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scibaby97 (talk • contribs) 13:49, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Post-war guilt was at its strongest after 1945. The First World war also caused a decline in nationalism, at least in Europe and North America.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.163.188 (talk) 11:33, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post-war guilt 

message: Case, K. A. (2007). Raising White privilege awareness and reducing racial prejudice: Assessing diversity course effectiveness. Teaching of Psychology, 34, 231–235. doi:10.1080/00986280701700250
Garriott, P. O., Reiter, S., & Brownfield, J. (2016). Testing the efficacy of brief multicultural education interventions in white college students. Journal Of Diversity In Higher Education, 9(2), 158-169. doi:10.1037/a0039547
Iyer, A., Leach, C. W., & Crosby, F. J. (2003). White guilt and racial compensation: The benefits and limits of self-focus. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 29, 117–129. doi:10.1177/0146167202238377
Kernahan, C., & Davis, T. (2007). Changing perspective: How learning about racism influences student awareness and emotion. Teaching of Psychology, 34, 49–52. doi:10.1207/s15328023top3401_12
Powell, A. A., Branscombe, N. R., & Schmitt, M. T. (2005). Inequality as ingroup privilege or outgroup disadvantage: The impact of group focus on collective guilt and interracial attitudes. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 31, 508 –521. http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/0146167204271713
Soble, J. R., Spanierman, L. B., & Liao, H. (2011). Effects of a brief video intervention on White university students' racial attitudes. Journal Of Counseling Psychology, 58(1), 151-157. doi:10.1037/a0021158
Spanierman, L. B., & Heppner, M. J. (2004). Psychosocial Costs of Racism to Whites scale (PCRW): Construction and initial validation. Journal of Counseling Psychology, 51, 249–262. doi:10.1037/0022-0167.51.2.249
Spanierman, L. B., Poteat, V. P., Wang, Y.-F., & Oh, E. (2008). Psychosocial costs of racism to White counselors: Predicting various dimensions of multicultural counseling competence. Journal of Counseling Psychology, 55, 75–88. doi:10.1037/0022-0167.55.1.75
Swim, J. K., & Miller, D. L. (1999). White guilt: Its antecedents and consequences for attitudes toward affirmative action. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 25, 500–514. doi: 10.1177/0146167299025004008 
Thackrah, R. D., & Thompson, S. C. (2013). "Friendly Racism" and White Guilt: Midwifery Students' Engagement with Aboriginal Content in Their Program. Forum On Public Policy Online, 2013(2), Forum on Public Policy Online, 2013, Vol.2013(2). Retrieved from: http://web.a.ebscohost.com.libproxy.sdsu.edu/ehost/detail/detail?vid=3&sid=7d516da3-e601-4b42-9a13-3627c9795136%40sessionmgr4007&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZSZzY29wZT1zaXRl#db=eric&AN=EJ1047846
ConMadden (talk) 06:02, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional references 

message: The Gary Younge quote "It won’t close the pay gap, [...]" links to the page about the gender pay gap. I attempted to change it to link to Racial wage gap in the United States, but my edit was immediately undone by user:CLCStudent. I believe my edit to be justified, given that the rest of the quote was about racial, not gendered, discrimination.--88.131.71.181 (talk) 15:17, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pay Gap 

message: Seems to me that "white guilt" is an anglo saxon concept which is preponderant into the anglo saxon world among protestant liberal white. During the slavery in USA, it wasn't rare to see masters showing "kindness" in paternalistic way to their black slaves. Maybe this behavior has remained into the anglo-white american population  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:6B8E:EE00:F0C6:CC8C:4F45:87E6 (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  White guilt or WASP guilt rather? A relic of american slavery? 

message: I slightly modified the lead to be in accordance with WP:REFERS, viz., instead of saying “White guilt refers to…” we need to say, per P&G, “White guilt is…” Apart from WP:REFERS, this edit brings that first Lead sentence in line with WP:V. It is words or terms that refer, but this article is not about words or a term; instead, this article is about the thing itself, white guilt. That’s what our cited WP:RS are discussing—-white guilt itself and not words or terms—-and so to abide by WP:V, we also need to be talking about the thing itself and not about words or terms. 
To anticipate and hopefully quash a potential objection here: Saying that “White guilt is XYZ,” we are not committing ourselves, in the article, to the existence of white guilt or to the aptness or anything else of white guilt. The “is” here is not the “is” of existence, but, instead, the “is” of predication. To recognize this, notice that if someone says “White guilt does not exist,” they are not saying that the words or term “white guilt” do not exist. They’re saying the thing itself, white guilt, does not exist. But they can still say “And what I say doesn’t exist, white guilt, is XYZ.”
If this is an issue for anyone, let ,e know and we can discuss. ThanksForHelping (talk) 18:30, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  WP:REFERS 

message: White Guild seems to be part of a certain type of rassistic thinking, where people classify humans by race. There is nothing about this in the article. The article would benefit from helping to understand the psychology of this phenomena better, as independent of ideology as possible.
Assuming the existence of races for a while, the article does not explain why certain members of the 'white race' (Caucasians, Arabs and Japaneese I guess?) seems to be the only one with enough compassion to feel this guild for behavior that ancestors did, hundreds of years ago, while other races seems to not have this (most larger human civilizations had slavery and occupations in their past and therefore it should be 'human guild' but apparently it isn't. Or is it?).
In conclusion this article seems to be a bit superficial and not backed much by research. Especially research from uninvolved (hence more objective) third parties like China, Africa and such 2A01:598:D00F:76BB:43BA:F727:D3C:78B4 (talk) 12:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inclusion into broader view