Talk:Bảo Đại/Archive 1

message: I noticed someone removed the picture. Can we not use it anymore now that the user who added it has been apparently discredited? Everyking 10:41, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

message: The ALMANACH DE BRUXELLES is publishing for the first time here details of all present and former dynasties.
For Asian Royalty the refrence is Genealogisches Handbuch der Fürstlichen Häuser edited since 1951 by C.A. Starke, Limburg a.d.Lahn, Germany and the London Almanach de Gotha since 1998.
If you look at Third-Party  Reference Annam Kingdom and scroll down to the bottom you will see the title Prince for Prince Buu Chanh.
link: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/states/asia/annam.html
The Academy of European Medieval Martial Arts lists Prince Buu Chanh and Princess Phan Lien as Honorary Fellows.
Scroll down to bottom of the screen to view.
link 1: http://www.aemma.org/aboutAEMMA_top.htm
Link 2: http://www.aemma.org/aboutAEMMA_top.htm
If you goto The International Monarchist League on Monarchy.net a Third Party organization please scroll down to VIETNAM and you will see that Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is listed as well as Prince Buu Phuc who assigned Prince Buu Chanh as the Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty.
Link 3: http://www.monarchy.net/directory.htm#
I will will remove the Regent of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty unitil I gather outside references together but will resume Prince becuase it is stated by Third Party refrences.
I have presented third party references besides stating your personal belief what validation have you presented ? Jimmyvanthach 18:14, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/states/asia/annam.html 
The reference you give on a website is of old information that is not updated and is not accurate.
There is no research done, or books listed to show how the website recieved its facts.
But since you provided the site, I looked it over and if you scroll to the bottom you will 
see that Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is  listed as "Prince"
Pr. BUU CHANH [Nguyen Phuoc Buu Chanh], born 12th February 1942 in Hue, descendant of Prince Kien Hoa, (the Duke of Kien Hoa) who was the 71st son of the Emperor Minh Mang, married Phan Lien and has issue, 4 children.Jimmyvanthach 14:05, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Your Reference

message: I have researched this issue of the biography with  *Dr. My-Van Tran  an Asian Vietnamese Professor
You are correct there is no Monarchy in Vietnam, The monarchy ENDED. That is not what the biography is advocating.
Emperor Bao Dai formed the Vietnamese Imperial Council and the documents are on the net via google search or yahoo search, are are not in fair use at the present time to be distributed.
Prince Buu Chanh is not the Crown Prince, Bao Long is the Crown Prince of the  Nguyen Dynasty a Ceremonial position.
The Nguyen Dynasty is just the royal house it is not a government in exile lives on and the Nguyen Dynasty succeeds as long as the Regent is established to handle the daily activities of Religious and advocate for the people of Vietnam.
Emperor Bao Dai Edict stated that Prince Buu Phuc as the Chairman and in control of the Imperial Nguyen Phoc House. 
If that is the case therefore Crown Prince Bao Long does not have any power, his only right is to goto the Vietnamese Imperial Council to present any suggestions.
Crown Prince Bao Long as made his statement aware to the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council: 
Please  see Vietnam’s Imperial Crown Prince
Official Nguyen Dynasty Document
Furthermore, it is not my group, I am a Vietnamese-Ameirican that is is interested in my culture and doing research on it.Jimmyvanthach 11:23, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Asian Vietnamese Review

message: I have researched this issue of the biography with *Dr. My-Van Tran an Asian Vietnamese Professor and confirmed the information please read her Scholar papersJimmyvanthach 14:16, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Contact Asian Vietnamese Expert

message: Concerning The Dr. My-Van Tran, I have contacted her and she confirmed the documents that
are provided to her about Nguyen Dynasty document of Emperor Bao Dai.
You can also contact Tran Van Ba the former Colonel in Chief of Emeperor Bao Dai and also the late Emperor's mother Dowager Empress Doan Huy Hoang Thi Hau Tu Cung.
His email is  Tran_Van_Ba@hotmail.com
Here is his site as Chancellor of Order of Dragon of Annam.
Tran Van Ba
Please look over information concerning the Association de l'Imperiale Familie du Vietnam  and it also names Prince Buu Chanh.
VIETNAM
• Association de l'Imperiale Familie du Vietnam 
Arc-En-Ciel-Bellatrix, rue du Colonel Gassin, F-0600 Nice, France.
Tel: +33 4 93851289
Contact: Prince Buu-Phuc 
• The Vietnamese Imperial Family Overseas Council & South East Asia Imperial & Royal League 
c/o P.O. Box 6621 Aurora, Illinois 60598-0621, USA.
Tel & Fax: +1 630 499 7964
Contact: HIH Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh of Vietnam
The link is: International Monarchist League Directory
The International Monarchist League's aim is, quite simply, to support the principle of monarchy. It is independent of any political party or group, and its subscribers are drawn from many countries and all walks of life. As well as receiving the quarterly journal, Monarchy, subscribers have the opportunity to take part in the activities arranged by Headquarters.
All statements I have collected and researched myself and anyone can do this by simply writing or emailing them for confirmation, I have provided the refrences. Jimmyvanthach 19:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: International Monarchist League

message: I am not making any claims, I have just done research concerning the Vietnamese Monarchy and about the Nguyen Dynasty. I have just contact Tran Van Ba, which anyone can contact him,
he was the last Colonel-in-chief of the Imperial Guards of Emperor Bao Dai.
All I am providing is to contact them as a reference. I am only a plain history student studying my vietnamese history. 
I have researched this issue of the biography with *Dr. My-Van Tran an Asian Vietnamese Professor and confirmed the information please read her Scholar papers
Tran Van Ba the former Colonel in Chief of Emeperor Bao Dai and also the late Emperor's mother Dowager Empress Doan Huy Hoang Thi Hau Tu Cung.
His email is  Tran_Van_Ba@hotmail.com
Here is his site as Chancellor of Order of Dragon of Annam.
Tran Van Ba
please note there is a photo of him with Emperor Bao Dai, and Emperor Bao Dai assigned him advisor to the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council.
Please provide your information of your refrences that you have found ? Jimmyvanthach 02:38, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Prove ?

message: Dr. My-Van Tran has written books on the Royals of Vietnam, I suggest you view her site and reference her books concerning these issues. i.e. Prince Cuong De
*Dr. My-Van Tran an Asian Vietnamese Professor and confirmed the information please read her Scholar papers 
There is no pretending and you seem to be speaking of opinion, but that is your right, but when I have completed by research on books that confirm this, then you will have to provide a book that disproves Emperor Bao Dai Edict and Prince Buu Phuc and the Chairman in charge of the Imperial Nguyen Phuoc to be in control of the Nguyen House. Jimmyvanthach 02:37, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Scholar work

message: I have contacted Prince Buu Phuc, concerning Emperor Bao Dai intent.
You are correct, that he is not a reigning Emperor, but he was still the Head of the Imperial Nguyen House of Vietnam , he is was not the leader of the nation of Vietnam.
Emperor Bao Dai in exile signed a letter of transfering all duties and responsibilites to the Nguyen Imperial House of Vietnam to the Vietnamese Imperial Family Council, and that person was Prince Buu Phuc.  
The role of Crown Prince Bao Long is only ceremonial since he does not have any power over the affairs of the Nguyen Dyansty. I am researching the material and getting some refrences on books as User HOB as suggested. 
When I complete the research I will document the reference and then prepare a biography on it. 
I will get to the bottom of this and I urge you to help if you wish to work together and have references from books, not internet sites  as USER HOB suggested.Jimmyvanthach 22:33, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Head of Imperial Nguyen House of Vietnam

message: The Royal Edict signed by Emperor Bao Dai has been viewed by other Royals. It is a dynastic and cannot be viewed and published on the internet. I have been told this by the Imperial Staff that I emailed. Just because Bao Long allegedly may have the sword and the seal, does not been he can assume control over the Nguyen House. Emperor Bao Dai had established in 1982 that Prince Buu Phuc is the Chairman(principal) of the Vietnamese Imperial Family and that all family members must cooperate with him.
"If the Emperor made Buu Phuc and Buu Chanh bosses over the dynasty and the rest of the family accepted this, why are there no pictures of Phuong Mai or Bao Thang or Georges Vinh San or any of Ham Nghi's family on your website?"
The reason is because Emperor Bao Dai did not include their names in the Royal Edict and futhermore when he established the Vietnamese Imperial Council Staff they were not assigned positions as Prince Buu Chanh and Ton That Ngoc. Jimmyvanthach 02:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Edict by Emperor Bao Dai

message: I understand your point, but were is your reference that you are stating that "emperor and cannot issue any imperial edicts, that is a fact he has no more authority or responsibility over anyone but himself"
Emperor Bao Dai ceased being the Emperor of Vietnam, but he still was the head of the Nguyen Dynasty. The books I am researching names him still as the head of the house even though he abidicated the throne.Jimmyvanthach 19:57, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Fact ?

message: I understand your point, but were is your reference that you are stating that "emperor and cannot issue any imperial edicts, that is a fact he has no more authority or responsibility over anyone but himself"
Emperor Bao Dai ceased being the Emperor of Vietnam, but he still was the head of the Nguyen Dynasty. The books I am researching names him still as the head of the house even though he abidicated the throne.
As I stated above, I am researching books of reference concerning disputes as USER HOB has suggested. Jimmyvanthach 19:57, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Fact ?

message: The fact is the instrument of abdication, which you seem totally incapable of comprehending. Bao Dai could not have issued any "Imperial Edicts" after 1945 because he was not Emperor anymore! He quit, resigned, tossed Uncle Ho the keys and said, take this job and shove it. He gave up his imperial status, that is what abdication is, it means he stopped being the emperor and could not go on acting like one, which there is no evidence that he did. Bao Dai, like his children and the rest of the senior family members, have accepted this situation, in fact, Bao Dai even said he was happy to abdicate and felt relieved and unburdened by it. The only people who don't seem to get the message is you of Buu Chanh's group who can't seem to accept the fact that being a "Nguyen-Phuc" doesn't make you any more important or powerful or special than anyone else. NguyenHue 18:34, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, FACT 

message: Unless you are now claiming to have actually taken a vote of the entire Vietnamese exile community, your assertions are purely speculative and mean absolutely nothing. If the Nguyen were so popular the people would never have overthrown them and embraced Ho Chi Minh. The Nguyen were not all bad, but they were too associated with the French; they collaborated with the invaders, first the French, later Japan and then the French again and tried to do the same with America. That is not something to endear them to the people. NguyenHue 01:55, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to continue this discussion if you want, but be aware that Jimmyvanthach will no longer be editing this article or any similar article, due to a recent arbitration decision. The ban doesn't apply to Talk pages, though. ←Hob 04:09, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
----
Since no-one has contributed to this discussion since November, I have removed the "factual accuracy dispute" tag. It seems that the only matter in dispute at this article was whether Bao Dai's son should be called a Crown Prince or not. I take the view that since Vietnam has been a republic (or two republics) for nearly 50 years, it cannot have a Crown Prince. I have therefore removed both the tag and the phrase "Crown Prince." I hope everyone is happy with that. Adam 12:40, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pointless