Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 5

message: Every time I stop by this article every few months, I see that the iconic image up as the portrait photo. We are supposed to be writing a biography about the real Guevara, not confusing him with the cult figure. I will get around to inserting a neutral photo, such as the ones appearing in these links   172 | Talk 11:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So I guess the photo you inserted IS neutral. Mariano(t/c) 11:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's an AP photo, as opposed to something staged. The problem is that it's pretty small, grainy, and ugly. I couldn't find a better photo. Almost all the photos coming up in image searches were the famous iconic images. I'll try to find a better one pretty soon. 172 | Talk 13:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: All other considerations aside, the photo you have inserted is of extremely poor quality.  I will try to find one to replace it until such time as you or someone else comes up with another one. Polaris999 14:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

text: I really think we should stick with the Korda photo.  I'm a very visual person, and I do a lot my learning by association with images.  For those like me, if I were to come to this article not knowing who Che was, I could recognize the Korda photo and be able to develop instant associations. Likewise, those reading the article would be able to associate what they learned from Wikipedia when they see the prevalent image.  Aside from that, the Korda photo is a good photo, the other substitutes have been grainy or had shadows.  Not to mention that the Korda photo is free for whatever use so there's no fair -use potential problem.  I also think there is not a neutrality problem here.  The Korda photo doesn't show Che saving puppies or anything like that. It's a plain photo. Also, it's my understanding the photo is not staged (re:172's second comment).  Even if it were, most of the articles on political figures in Wikipedia use publicity shots which diffinately are staged. I also don't think the photo in anyway detracts from the article as biography, especially considering the photo was the non-stylized image.  Waxing poetic, the photo might even be a good symbolic representation since it's the photo behind the iconic image, just as the article is about the man behind the cult figure.--Bkwillwm 19:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For those like me, if I were to come to this article not knowing who Che was, I could recognize the Korda photo and be able to develop instant associations. That's bad. An encyclopedia is a souce for factual content, not emotional associations with images. The facts, not the images and emotions, should underlie this article. Your comment makes me oppose the reinsertion of the Korda image even more staunchly. 172 | Talk 20:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I said nothing about emotions.  I meant visual associations.  I think it helps to have visual associations with factual material.  I think articles should have easily recognizable photographs illustrating their subjects. I don't know what kind of emotional response you expect readers to have when they see the picture in this article.  My guess is that most people say "Hey, it's the t-shirt guy." I think this recognition is a good beginning to informing people of the details behind the man. Also, the image does not make or break the article as a cult vs. biographical piece.  Whether the article was pro-cult Che, anti-Che, or neutral, it might have the image (See this page for an example of an anti-Che article with the Korda photo). Why would an anti-Che site use the image? Because it's easily recognizable.  The image is also the best image of Che we have available.  The alternative you've inserted is low-res, fair-use.  You have also failed to provide a fair use rationale for the photo. Please do if you plan to keep it on this page. However, I think your fair use justification will be weak considering there's a free use alternative. My knowledge of fair use is not that deep, but I can't think of a good rationale for using your image, and I do know that the availibility of an alternative, freer image weakens justification for fair use. Also, the Korda photo should be somewhere in the article; for better or worse, the image is iconic and an important part of Che's legacy; leaving it out is negligent.--Bkwillwm 03:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a different Korda photo version. I think this one is less idealized but still very recognizable, and hopefully alleviates your concerns. If this photo can be agreed on, it should probably be enhanced and maybe cropped. For now, thoughts?--Bkwillwm 03:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: PS, this version of the photo is tagged fair use instead of copyright with permission.  Considering the many uses of the image, I think it's pretty much regarded as free though. The photographer has allowed for a variety of uses, only asserting a copyright claim once in an attempt to stop commericialization of the image.  Beats any rationale for using an AP photo I think.--Bkwillwm 03:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Portrait

message: I reverted the removal of external links. Did not see any discussion recently on this page concerning removal of links so did the revert. Such changes such be discussed first.--Dakota ~ 20:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Dakota
I re-reverted your revert but only saw afterwards your explanation here after I have done so.  Sorry!  
Please look at the history of the guy who originally added his link (200.55.155.193) is constantly link spamming wikipedia with links to his website (nothing else in contribution, just adds his link).  I followed him here from another page he keeps adding his links to. Cabanos 22:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually four links were removed in 3 revisions. Not exactly sure what particular link you refer to.--Dakota ~ 01:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of links

message: According to Che's mother, he was actually born on May 14th. She was three months pregnant when she married Che's father, so they pushed his date of birth a month ahead. 
- Che, Jon Lee Anderson, Chapter 1.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.169.68 (talk • contribs) 
:There is no documented record of Che's mother ever having told anyone this.  Anderson repeats a story that was told to him by a woman he identifies as "Julia Constenla de Giussani" (page 9) who he says told him that she had arranged for an astrologer to draw up a chart for Ernesto, and this said Julia is reported to have stated that the astrologer in question told her that Che's mother had told her that he was actually born on 14 May 1928 rather than on 14 June 1928, the latter date being the one that is recorded on his birth certificate and all of his other official documents.  Since no one before or after Anderson has ever presented evidence of the alleged falsification, and since Che and all of his family always celebrated his birthday on 14 June, and since the reason for the alleged falsification, i.e. to "avoid scandal", doesn't make sense because Celia and Ernesto (his parents) were quite well known for their total lack of concern as to what others might think of them and their lifestyle, it does not make sense to conclude, on the basis of this one hearsay report and in the face of all of the evidence to the contrary, that Ernesto was born on 14 May.
:Nevertheless, the story related by Anderson is summarized in the article's Content Note entitled "Birthdate" as follows:
::Birthdate: While 14 June 1928 is Guevara's official date of birth, it may not be the actual date of birth. The official story is that he was born eight months after his parents married; several sources suggest that he was born earlier (the date 14 May is the most prevalent), and that his mother was already pregnant at the time of her marriage.
:This Content Note is linked to in the first sentence of the first paragraph, right after the date "14 June 1928".
:It was the consensus of all of the editors working on the article just prior to its being nominated for FA status that this was the correct way to handle the matter of the birthdate, and this is the version that was promoted to FA. If you want to read further detail about this subject and how the decision was reached, please consult the Archives (listed at the top of this page). Also, in the future, kindly sign your comments. Polaris999 22:15, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Alleged Uncertainty about Che's Birthdate

message: Just wanted to make sure that people know about templates like , , etc., which show up as , , etc. - Jmabel | Talk 15:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I, for one, didn't know about these templates -- many thanks, Jmabel, for mentioning them. -- Polaris999 16:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Remark on labeling foreign-language links