Talk:Metrication in Canada

message: I think this article makes it sound like Imperial is used more on a day to day basis than it really is. I was born in the 70s and only learned metric. I understand imperial for human height and weight, and for cooking but that's about it. I know how far a mile is, but not 100 miles, or how fast 50 miles and hour is. I think the main point of confusion is food - groceries that need to be weighed are often signed in imperial, but rung in in metric, and cooking is a mix of all manner of methods - cups, grams, tablespoons, etc. etc. with cookbooks coming from various locations and some ovens imperial and other metric.
I think this article makes it sound like there's a veneer of metric (like in the UK, where road signs still have distances in imperial), but it's more than that in Canada. We do actually mostly live in metric - with some odd exceptions and eccentricities, and some generation gap issues. I buy milk in litres, run in km, know speed in km/h, know that it's 1c today and like to splurge on 100g of bulk foods.  -- unsigned
Yes, we use metric.  Yes, we drive in kms per hour, measure road distances in kms and buy gasoline in litres.  Yes, we use Celsius for the temperature.  We measure snow depth in centimetres (until there is a lot and then maybe in feet).  We buy meat in kgs.  At least that is what it says on the package but the sign by the meat in the store has the price per pound in much larger size than the price per kilogram (because the older generation cannot see as well?).  But we order our steaks in restaurants in ounces.  We order our beer in pints or quarts (but not the same as Imperial pint or quart) and the shot glass for measuring liquor in mixed drinks is in ounces.  We usually cook with cups, ounces, tablespoons and teaspoons and set the oven temperature in Fahrenheit.  Our height is in centimetres on our driver licences but we probably give our height in feet and inches.  We probably give our weight in pounds.  We measure our houses or apartments, its rooms and the land around it in feet and square feet.  We buy lightbulbs for it measured in watts.  We buy two-by-fours (roughly 2 inches by 4 inches), plywood in 4 by 8 foot sheets, etc., for construction. (We do buy paint for it by the litre but the paint store calls that 4 litre can a gallon.)  The specifications on our cars will be mostly be metric but, for example, the wheel size will be in inches.  If you mess around in boats, you give boat lengths, beam and drawing depth in feet and speed in knots.  The engines on our outboards are measured by horsepower.  The reality is we use both systems.  For some things us older folks a little more than our kids.  I could go on.  But for all of us it is much more than just height, weight and cooking. Hebbgd (talk) 18:17, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you about the tone of this article. Growing up in the 70s and 80s in Canada, I was always acutely aware of 355ml can or the 500ml bottle or pop. I don't think this article has a neutral point of view. --Zaurus (talk) 23:20, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Daily use of imperial

message: The article is somewhat confusing for the uninitiated.  On the one hand it says "there is still significant use of non-metric units and standards in some sectors of the Canadian economy, mainly due to the close proximity to the United States".  But on the other hand, Canada previously used Imperial units rather than U.S. customary units, as the examples dealing with fluid measures make abundantly clear.  In some passages, the term "Imperial units" is more or less mistakenly used to reference the U.S. system.  Could somebody clean this up and clarify Canadians' actual understanding of these issues?
—Naddy 11:42, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imperial vs. US 

message: As an engineer who works in Canada I deal with this mess every day.  We are taught metric in school, almost like it is a religion, the "pure" and "perfect" system.  However, it is rarely used in industry.  Right now I am working on a mechanical system design for a large meat processing plant.  I can tell you 100% of the design has been done in IMPERIAL, not US or metric.  Flow rates are in igpm, air handlers are being built based on flow rates of cubic feet per minute.  I have done a fair amount of work in Alberta and they tend to use USgals a lot due to their attachment to the USA and the oil industry.  
I would say that the scheme of everyone using metric has not been overly sucessful, seeing as how professionals and tradesmen still overwhelmingly use imperial.
Prior to becoming an engineer I worked in the automotive trade, same thing... the only metric used was on import cars.
Also of note, I am six foot three inches tall, one hundred ninety pounds.  There are 32.2 pounds in a slug, 12 inches in a foot, 16 tablespoons in a cup, &c... 
One final note of failure: I was born in 1978, and graduated university in 2004.
I would imagine that a scientist or government regulator might argue that Canada is fully metricated, but spend 5 minutes on a construction site, a garage, or grocery store, and you will have your answer.
--Mf135gas 03:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, that is very interesting. It is exactly the opposite in the UK. Engineers and all exports are in pure metric and have been for decades. Where imperial is used, it is in traditional service industries or just in conversation. An example I recently discovered in the UK is that it is illegal to sell bottled or canned beer in imperial measurements, while (Because of the influence of traditionalists) it is illegal to sell draught beer in metric measurements. The media generally quotes most measurements in a mixture of imperial and metric. Weather reports will say wind speed in miles per hour, while temperatures are in celcius. Road signs in the UK are all imperial by law, and there are fanatics here who go around defacing any signs they find with metric measurements on them. Its very interesting that Canadian industry uses imperial, while ordinary people have converted. How old is the machine you use? Could it predate metrication. Seabhcán 09:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  There isn't much left that predates metrication.  I recall my father telling me that his high school texts were converted to metric in the late 1960s.  All of my math and physics texts in high school were 100% metric.  It wasn't until university that I was academically exposed to the Imperial system.  I recall someone asking as to why were going to learn imperial in a first year Dynamics class.  The answer was, correctly, because no one in the "real world" uses metric.  In university, about 1/2 of our problem sets/exams were metric, so I am entirely fluent.  I must say though, that since I entered the working world, the only metric I have seen is while working with a Dutch supplier.  I also run across it in the National Building Code.One of our suppliers on a current job is from the south of England.  They gratefully supplied me some mechanical loads in Imperial, but I think were a bit shocked to find that we weren't going to use metric.  It is a strength to be entirely fluent in both systems, one of the advantages Canada has.  However, I think one will always feel more comfortable in one as opposed to the other.  Personally, I use the Imperial system because I have a very good grasp of physical end of it, eg: I can indentify a pound of hamburger, but I cannot visualise a kilogram of hamburger.  Abstractly though, I prefer dealing in metric because given Joules (energy) I can find a related rate kilowatts (power) easier than I can do with BTUs and horsepower.  Ultimately though, I will convert the end result of the calculation into imperial because the electic motor, or whatever it is will be sized in horsepower.  Perhaps on a more social end though, I think there are reasons worth discussing why the UK has embraced metrication while Canada has not.  Some of it has to be trade related with the United States, however most Canadians will clearly indicate that being more American is not the motivation.  --Mf135gas 03:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason for UK industry's use of metric is simple - 90% of exports go to purely metric countries (The article Metrication in the UK has details) - but outside of industry imperial is sometimes used. Ireland is a better example because we have metricated virtually everything. Imperial units are now only refered to in vague references - "It's about a mile away" (When it could be anything from 1-3 km). When precision is required, metric is always used. Cookery books are an exception as they are usually in dual measurements - even though food is sold in metric now. I did a physics degree in Limerick university in Ireland and imperial units were never mentioned (Even though we had lecturers from the the US, UK, India and other places) Here in the UK where I'm doing a PhD, I have never encountered imperial in my work (but supermarkets and road signs use it) although a friend in Low Temperature physics had to learn what 'psi' is because the UK manufacturer of a piece of equipment used it for some reason - but it is rare. I think the reasons why the UK still used imperial in daily life is down to anti-europe feeling, which doesn't exist in Ireland. Seabhcán 09:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

text: Just thought I'd offer some extra information here. My father is on staff with the largest accrediting organization of roofing companies in BC, and he tells me that centimetres are being used more and more often in measurements. Since 2×4s are no longer 2 anything by 4 anything (and so forth), a lot of the trades are starting to use centimetres simply because they are smaller units and therefore easier to measure and add than small fractions of inches. Also, there isn't a set of wrenches out there these days that doesn't have both metric and Imperial sockets, and it seems like millimetres are being used in the sheet metal industry. I have a feeling it will become more and more metric as time goes on, though our close trading relationship with the States makes complete metrication difficult. Jon VS (talk) 09:45, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metric in Canada 

message: This article does a good job of explaining how metric is used by Canadians but doesn't quite explain why.
It's clear that the federal government of the 1970s used its power over labeling laws and the like to push metric. But education and road signage would be provincial and local responsibilities, not federal. Was there some kind of federal-provincial agreement on a metric timetable? And what about the media? I can understand if the government's weather service decided to switch to metric in 1975, but I would have figured that the media would have kept using the old system its readers and listeners were then used to? Was there an agreement between the government and big media companies? Oddly enough, Environment Canada allows users of its website to get temperatures in both Fahrenheit and Celsius. -- Mwalcoff 06:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adoption by ordinary people 

message: "To confuse matters, supermarkets will often advertise foods such as meats and produce "per pound", since such prices may appear lower to consumers than prices advertised by kilogram. However, virtually all supermarket scales are metric, and the products advertised by the pound in a supermarket flyer are inevitably weighed and sold to the customer in the store based on a price "per 100 grams" or "per kilogram"."
Why do supermarkets advertise per pound if items are sold by the kilo? Aren't most consumers confused by this?
:The same happens here in the UK. It may partly be for the older generation who tend to prefer arrogantly using obsolete systems (typewriters, circular-dial telephones etc.) out of some sort of "principle" (you know the old "But it was like this when I was younger so it must be the best" line). I think the main reason though is the same reason as why virtually everything in supermarkets these days is now priced X.99. Products being 1 decimal shy of a whole number obviously makes shopping slightly more confusing and must create a lot of hassle for the supermarket's employees and  would be virtually impossible without electronic tills, so why do they do it?
:Simply because their studies show in both cases, some people will think it's cheaper even though in reality it's not and just causes confusion.  Canderra 13:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: when did all the transport agencies in Canada metricate?
:  Actually, most haven't!
*  Rail: this one is very traditional-50 ft boxcar, 23,000 gallon tank car, 70 ton truck. This occurs because Canadian and Americian Railways are interconnected, and US customary measures are used.
*  Trucking: Trailers are measured in feet, and loads in pounds. But distances are in kilometres, as are speeds. (highway traffic is done in metric.)
*  Airlift/airlines: IF Americans built it, the measures are in US customary. If airbus built it, measures are metric. Airports themselves use metric, by law-they are a federal responsability.
*  Shipping-This one, where Canadian ships exist, uses both: loads, dimensions, etc, are given in BOTH systems. Great lakes vessels use US customary, as that fleet is integrated.
*  Pipelines-use US customary in operation, and metric to register designs. Again this is to make Feds happy.
*  Hope this helps!--216.208.38.26 (talk) 01:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Appearance cleaned up. Peter Horn User talk 15:40, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Transport agencies 

message: Since there are a multitude of different types of "engineers", perhaps this section should more specifically mention mechanical engineers or one of the other fields of engineering? j-beda 15:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Engineers?

message: So there is no section in this article discussing height. That's odd since it is one piece of Canada that is, no matter how hard they try, very imperial. I have never once seen anyone in Canada use centimeters, if they measure height they do it in feet and inches. I can't say that in the article because that would be OR but it'ts damn true. No one else in the world seems to realize this which is why I hate it when someone converts height into metric for my benefit. TostitosAreGross 17:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The article does say "Canadians typically calculate their personal height and weight in feet/inches and pounds respectively, although these measurements are usually converted to metric on official forms."  I don't know that much more than that needs to be said.  Skeezix1000 18:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Height 

message: The line about using volts and amps just confuses me - is there a different imperial and metric unit for electricity - I was under the impression that both used volts and amps?
:: Voltage and current (amperes) have no other measurement system other than some technical definitions.  The statement "Electricians in every country use metric units such as volts and amperes, but motors..." should be removed as it is moot (to this article) and causes confusion.
99.251.114.120 (talk) 04:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Electricity 

message: I had taken the liberty of trying to improve this article, and most of my verified additions were removed -- such as the continued opposition to full and final metrification in Canada. I am going to revise this article again because it is factually inaccurate and grossly irresponsible to discount the heavy public opposition witnessed during the 1980s to full metrication. This kind of opposition was precisely why the Mulroney government came up with their 'compromise.' The fact is public opposition to full metrication, which led to Mulroney's compromise, is responsible for Canadians' continued use of pounds, inches, Fahrenheit for body temperature, etc. If people can not accept what the facts state, then I suggest seeking professional help -- I do not make things up. But please do not erase something I have taken the liberty to research.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.180.193.74 (talk • contribs) 
:The source you use for information about opposition to metrication is a Wikipedia mirror, meaning the article is a direct copy of this one, or an earlier version of this one. It is an invalid source, equivalent to using this article itself to support the claim. I am not disputing the claim (nor supporting it), only the source used - find a better source. Until then, the claim cannot stand. (Aside: the link to the CBC site isn't a valid ref either, as it is just a landing page for a group of articles about the subject; citations should be to references that unequivocally support the claim, so you'd be better off using direct links to Full-scale metric rebellion, for example (or Fighting metric in the meat market amongst others). Mindmatrix 14:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Let me just ask you, why hasn't Canada fully made the transition to the SI system? Why do you think there was even the need for a 'compromise'? Why do you think a group of MPs opened a gas station selling gas ONLY in imperial units (during the transition phase)? These are all questions that you, and any other sceptic of the notion of public opposition to full and final metrication in Canada, need to ask yourself. Take a country like Australia where even young Australians measure their weight in kilograms and height in metres/centimetres. This is most definitely NOT the case in Canada. Shoe sizes, for example, are always given in Imperial units -- as opposed to the Metric centimetre common throughout the world. Why does Ontario mandate the use of the imperial system in its schools? Why does Saskatchewan use imperial units on its driver's licences? These last vestiges of the Imperial system are still in use today, because of the public opposition that was witnessed in the 1970s and 1980s. As a young Canadian (I'm 27) I use imperial units for body temperature, cooking temperature, measurements for medications (tsp as opposed to mm), height, weight, shoe size, when I go to the grocery store, etc. I use metric units for distances, speed, and outside air temperature. This use of both systems is unheard of in most other countries and we owe its continued use to the public opposition to full and final metrication in Canada -- especially during the 1980s.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.180.193.74 (talk) 19:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: As I stated on my talk page - I object to the sources, not the content. Please distinguish between the two. You can cite all those examples in the text of the article, but please provide reliable sources. Why is this so difficult to understand? (And as I've said about the CBC landing page - it is not a valid ref; please use one of the articles to which it links instead.) I'm going to revert your change yet again if the ref isn't updated. Mindmatrix 15:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm,  it appears that the message on my talk page was left after the one above, so I'll assume you're already working on updating the ref. (If so, ignore my previous comment.) Mindmatrix 15:37, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Two weeks have passed, and the CBC metrication landing page is still being used as a ref. I've replaced it with {{|tl|Citation needed}}, for reasons I've already explained above. Mindmatrix 14:49, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Public opposition  

message: Is there a reason there are sections both for Commerce and for Retail? Much of the content is duplicated between both of them. It would probably be more encyclopaedic to consolidate the two sections into one. Jon VS (talk) 09:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commerce/Retail Sections 

message: The article says: "However unlike in the rest of Canada, metrication in the Francophone province of Quebec has been fully implemented and metric measures are more consistently used in Quebec than elsewhere in Canada." This is inaccurate as measurement systems and their definitions are defined at the federal level of government -- not provincial. Canada (as a country) has not completed the metrication process, and therefore neither has Quebec (as a Canadian province). The fact that metric units may or may not be used more frequently by the people of Quebec is irrelevant to the system's full legal status in the province and indeed country. 173.180.196.28 (talk) 21:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to say, this entire article is slanted in such a way that makes it seem like Imperial measurements are only ever used for marketing purposes in Canada. This could not be further from the truth, yet I presume the reason for this slant is that people simply do not want the world to know that Canada actually "officially" uses both systems. It seems some have a problem with reality. The "Commercial usage" section is a fine example to corroborate my beliefs: "Supermarkets will often advertise foods such as meats and produce "per pound", since such prices may appear lower to consumers than prices advertised by kilogram. However, virtually all supermarket scales are metric..." Most supermarkets advertise "per pound" because people simply have an innate feeling for "a pound." Do European countries advertise the price "per pound"? No, they have no reason to, despite the fact that prices would look smaller if they did. Supermarket scales always metric? I know for a fact that ALL grocery stores (in my area at least) have dual unit scales. In fact, Whole Foods Market (Western Canada) ONLY has Imperial scales. Also, how is it known that "US cooking" measurements are used in Canada? "Imperial" measurements have always traditionally been used in Canada. "Though traditional units are commonly used for height and weight, and are often used for length, a general understanding of traditional units does not generally go much beyond that unless perhaps the user has spent a significant amount of time in the United States." Complete hearsay. Did you know that trains in Canada are completely Imperial (miles, mph, feet, inches, etc)? Why is there no mention of this in the article? This article needs a lot of work (and needs to be impartial and reflective of the reality that Imperial measurements are still VERY common in Canada -- mainly because Canadians are comfortable with them). 173.180.196.28 (talk) 11:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: As a matter of fact a branch of Centre des Viandes F Iasenza Inc in the Marché aux puces Saint-Martin - Laval, Quebec sells meat and fowl per pound and not per kilo. Their scales can not even be converted but can only weigh in pounds. My wive and I purchase there at times. Peter Horn User talk 03:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quebec  

message: Do New Brunswick and Nova Scotia really still use imperial measures on their drivers licenses? Peter Horn User talk 02:44, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The New Brunswick drivers licese ie metric, see Drivers license. Peter Horn User talk 01:18, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imperial units drivers license 

message: John Deere has used metric fasteners since time immemorial. Peter Horn User talk 22:35, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Farm tractors etc 

message: I may be corrected on this, but I'm sure the term "metrification" was far more widely used during the debate in the 1970s and 1980s, than was "metrication."  Perhaps this should be mentioned --  it might be a Canadianism. CaperBill (talk) 23:21, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: It's clearly also used in the United States, so is likely the North American preference. -- 76.65.128.112 (talk) 01:54, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  metrification 

message: This article has clearly been written by someone over 70 yrs of age. All of Canada uses the metric system quite inclusively including mainstream society and the sciences. This is the problem with Wikipedia... no citations, completely inaccurate. Sad. --75.164.248.53
This time I didn't actually revert the edit. I have been seeing quite a bit of commentary in articles lately. I wish the editors would address their concerns somewhere more appropriate but you do what you can. Can anyone comment on this latest one? The comment seems legitimate, if badly placed and unsourced. Cathfolant (talk) 02:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment removed from article 

message: :Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
*Strong support either the proposed title or Metrification in Canada Red Slash 06:40, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I recently added some material to another article using this rail accident report from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, and I noticed that, despite being written in 2003, it used entirely English units save for the ambient temperature, given in Celsius. So I wondered, is it official Canadian government policy to allow railroads to use English units? I can see several reasons why:
*Interoperability with the US rail network,
*Railroads were probably surveyed and laid out using miles, so it probably made sense to keep the mileposts rather than create potentially dangerous confusion by renumbering control points and such; and
*Most importantly, Canada has the same structural issue the U.S. does: the vast distances across the country made it more efficient to use longer cars and create longer trains, therefore measuring train length in feet and, when long enough, miles, makes more sense, especially where the track distances use miles.
Is there anything official on this we could add as a source? Daniel Case (talk) 06:17, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Railroading: another area still using customary units? 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Canadian building and engineering standards still frequently imperial measure, due to being within close proximity of the United States, which accounts for 20% of imports, and as a result the Canadians still use equipment manufactured to the North American standards. One topic that hasn't been explained is how Canada deals with standards which use US Customary volume, which differs from imperial volume. For instance, let's say a North American standard pipe with a 1" inner diameter is rated at 39 US gallons per minute. In Canada, would the standard for that pipe be modified to be 32 imperial gallons per minute?
Unofficialwikicorrector (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Engineering Standards