Talk:Henry Johnson (World War I soldier)

message: HISTORICAL NOTE: This page was launched with the title "Henry Lincoln Johnson," actually the name of another individual (although conflated in multiple sources). Much of the debate which follows relates to this naming question. Carrite (talk) 22:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

message: We're still showing Herman A. Johnson listed as a relative, but it's well-established at this point that the belief that there was a family connection between the two was mistaken. (Herman A. Johnson's Wikipedia page has been updated accordingly, I noticed.) Do others think we should remove the line about relations entirely or might it be better to leave it there, but say there are no known living relatives?Nicole.Paull (talk) 14:59, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relations listed in box at top right of page 

message: I remove Find a Grave as a reference (source) per Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Find a Grave was duplicated as a references and as an external link. Find a Grave as a source (or reference) fails;
*1)-WP:SOURCES; Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and *accuracy.
*2)- WP:NOTRELIABLE; Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight.
*3)- WP:SELFPUBLISH; Find a Grave is user edited and uses anonymous or pseudonymous editors.
*4)- WP:SPS]; This includes any website whose content is largely user-generated, including the Internet Movie Database, Cracked.com, CBDB.com, and so forth, with the exception of material on such sites that is labeled as originating from credentialed members of the sites' editorial staff, rather than users. Find a Grave is not currently specifically named as is IMBd but falls under "and so forth" but we can (and probably will) seek inclusion by name as it may be necessary for clarification. Otr500 (talk) 11:07, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The contributor may be unaware that MofH recipients in Find a Grave are deemed famous graves and have editorial oversight. Anthony Staunton (talk) 00:30, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You do realize that you are responding to a post that is over four years old...? Also, your summary could be deemed as patronizing to our female editors.  An editor is an editor, and gender is immaterial. Competence is all that matters. Scr★pIronIV 03:53, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote is slightly more than four years old. Anthony Staunton (talk) 23:42, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Find a Grave 

message: Since there is no definitive date of birth, or date of death, or place of birth, why are you arbitrarily picking one for the infobox? It gives the impression that one is correct and one is wrong. Both  need to be displayed. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:49, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of birth and death and place of birth 

message: Decision was not to move; latest move was against consensus.  Scr★pIronIV 18:50, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The decision is not important, this is wrong.  IAR. Carrite (talk) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfM was closed 

message: Correct COMMONNAME for this article is Henry Johnson (2015 Medal of Honor). He was not known as "William Henry Johnson," he achieved national fame as Henry Johnson. He was not the 1890 Congressional Medal of Honor winner Henry Johnson, that was a different person. He was not African-American soldier Henry Lincoln Johnson (d. 1924), that was a different person. Instead of specious "somebody wrote something on the internet," I refer you to one of the top academic histories on this topic, Chad L. Williams, Torchbearers of Democracy: African American Soldiers in the World War I Era. (University of North Carolina Press, 2010). Index page 444 lists two separate individuals, "Henry Johnson" (the subject of this article), pp. 124-127, 216-217, 289; and "Henry Lincoln Johnson," another person, pp. 220 and 387-footnote 122. Common name of this individual was "Henry Johnson." He was nationally famous.
This page may well have been wrong since the beginning of time. I'm not assigning blame or saying anything about that other than we absolutely can not be listing Medal of Honor winners by the wrong name, no matter how many people on the internet have messed up on the matter.  Please reverse your revert, . Thanks. —Tim /// Carrite (talk) 18:59, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The RfM was closed today, with the input of multiple experienced editors. Thank you for your input, and for the additional source.  There is no WP:DEADLINE, so I would suggest you open up a new RfM based on the new information.  As you well know, we do not make controversial and unilateral moves in situations where discussion has been held.  Maintaining the current name per WP:BRD, until a new consensus is achieved. Scr★pIronIV 19:08, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thanks, I'm also following BRD on this. It shouldn't be a controversial thing to overturn a RfM under the policy of Ignore All Rules, but since you reverted me you are going to have to be the one that makes that call. Be BOLD. I'm a strong believer in COMMONNAME, this should be listed as Henry Johnson, not William Henry Johnson and especially not as Henry Lincoln Johnson. Carrite (talk) 19:12, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe we all want this article to be named correctly.  You have found sources which were not considered in the prior discussion, and they are greatly appreciated; however, more input is required to determine the appropriate weight to be given to them.  A new RfM is appropriate, and I would not object to you opening one so quickly after the close of this one.  Scr★pIronIV 19:33, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: This person is not Henry Lincoln Johnson

message: Based on the SmithsonianMag source, the article currently states that Johnson was named "one of five bravest Americans" by former president Teddy Roosevelt (who died in early 1919, so was alive when Johnson became famous).  However the anb.org source states that it was Theodore Roosevelt, Jr., a son of the president, writing in a book in 1928:  "Theodore Roosevelt Jr, who also earned a Croix de Guerre in World War I, considered Johnson one of America's five most distinguished heroes of the conflict in Rank and File: True Stories of the Great War (1928)."   Did they both name him 1 of 5?  Perhaps they both did--perhaps Jr. was writing out what his pop had said--or is this another error in past coverage?  I must confess I mis-interpreted the anb.org source as referring to the former president as the book-writer, myself. --doncram 22:04, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: You can write SmithsonianMag and maybe get a response from the original researcher. Another good question. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:14, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is a good question. I would lay my money on TR Jr. — he was a top leader of the American Legion in the years after the war and war heroes were sort of his business. Carrite (talk) 16:10, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It was Jr., Sr. was supposed to speak at the parade and ceremony in Manhattan but could not make it, so he sent a short letter to Henry. Megan Smolenyak, the MoH researcher is sending me the information on the reference. She is pleased about the name correction. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:39, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Teddy Roosevelt, the president, or the president's son, named him 1 of 5? 

message: It seems that Henry Lincoln Johnson, the lawyer, was actually a Colonel during WWI. Is there any way that someone wise in the ways of the sourcing can dig up anything on his military record, particularly his unit? Ping me or stop by my talk page if you find anything, thanks! —Tim /// Carrite (talk) 03:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: There is also a Southern tradition of sorts for important people to adopt the honorific title "Colonel," so this might also be possible here. Carrite (talk) 07:28, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Request of the Military History people

message: Hello--
"Carrite" from Wikipedia here.
It seems that you have two names conflated in one biography: LINK
The war hero is William Henry Johnson, known as Henry Johnson (1892-1929): LINK
Henry Lincoln Johnson, known as Linc Johnson or Link Johnson (1870-1925) was a prominent attorney and Georgia Republican Party leader: LINK
Please note that the war hero posthumously received the Congressional Medal of Honor from President Obama in 2015 and the biography needs to be updated to reflect this fact.
Please do make this change as the names are becoming hopelessly conflated on the internet.
Thanks,
Tim Davenport
"Carrite" on Wikipedia
Corvallis, OR
Sent a few minutes ago by email to their web contact address. Carrite (talk) 07:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Sent to ''American National Biography''

message: Henry's portrait shows him wearing three service ribbons on his uniform, plus the Croix de Guerre.   This WP article says he received (ultimately) four awards: Croix de Guerre, World War I Victory Medal (United States)World War I Victory Medal, Purple Heart, and Medal of Honor.   The Purple Heart (medal or ribbon) could not have been worn by him since it was not authorized until 1932 - three years after his death.   The Medal of Honor was also awarded posthumously.    None of the ribbons resemble the ribbon for the Croix de Guerre.   So exactly what is he wearing on that uniform?  Is this even an accurate portrait of the right man (as others on WP talk have considered?).  I don't dispute that he served honorably and with distinction or that he was wounded, but I just want to know what other awards he may have received that may be unaccounted for.   Other than the Croix de Guerre, could any of these ribbons be French (rather than U.S.) decorations?  A great fire in 1973 destroyed a great many military records stored at the National Archives in St. Louis MO, so it may not be possible to completely answer my inquiries.   
As far as I can tell, none of the ribbons resemble the Army of Occupation of Germany Medal nor does the article suggest that he served in occupied territory after the Armistice.   Nor does any ribbon resemble that of the World War I Victory Medal (United States) (which he should have received after the Armistice).
In addition, those wounded in WW1 and honorably discharged usually receive a Silver Victory Button (not displayed in his portrait).   And while they are not considered awards, his uniform is also missing the collar discs that he was wearing in another, earlier portrait.2600:6C48:7006:200:D84D:5A80:173:901D (talk) 04:05, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awards, with discrepancies 

message: The Croix de Guerre is a campaign medal for service in a European war; Johnson received the Croix de Guerre (1914-1918) for service with French Forces in World War One. Service in a Colonial or overseas campaign or war would be indicated by the Colonial Medal. The augmentations (Stars or Palms) were Mentions in Dispatches at various levels of command and the bearer could receive any number of them for valoirous or gallant actions during their service (the US has a separate series of medals that perform this function). The Croix de Guerre awards the bronze Palme augmentation for Mention in Dispatches at the Army level (the equivalent to the US Silver Star). Silver Palmes are awarded for every five awards, similar to the US Oak Leaf Cluster augmentation. (See the photo of decorated ace Raul Lufbery wearing all of his Palmes on additional medal ribbons). There is no gold Palme award; there was a silver-gilt Palme, but it was for mentions at the Free French Forces level and was only awarded during World War Two. Thus Johnson's award is for the Croix de Guerre with Bronze Palm (and apparently a Bronze(?) Star augmentation as well). Hotspur23 (talk) 12:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Croix de Guerre 

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