Talk:Lemnian language

message: The section that suggests it is a translation of the stele seems to me to be merely a transliteration of the text, not a translation.  I doubt there is a credible, reliable translation of the text in English, however if such exists, it would be prudent to place it here.  Otherwise, the sub-title of this section should be "transliteration", rather than "translation".  Ironlion45 (talk) 02:12, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

message: Zmehmed, why the hell are you reverting the Anatolian hypothesis? I am not presenting it as fact. Frankly, I don't believe in it. But Steinbauer, who we give as a reference, forwards the hypothesis, so it is certainly no fringy crackpot idea. If you want, say that most linguists consider evidence inconclusive (I certainly do), but don't just censor the article, for crying out loud. dab (ᛏ) 16:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Leaving Zmehmed and his undue censorship aside, I can't imagine Lemnian being an "Indo-European" language in any meaningful sense. See: . I'd prefer to strip down the marginal "IE" suggestion in the article to the specific linguists who propose it. From reading the link and from my memory of other such references, it seems to me that the Anatolian similarities may as well be due to a pre-IE substrate in Anatolian, but who knows. ---Alexander 007 15:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't accept Lemnian as an Indo-European language either, but perhaps it should be mentioned because it is a part of what goes on in Lemnian studies. There are, for good or for bad, still some who swear by the IE connection. It's best to have a brief mention of it and to simply call it "highly unlikely" or such so that people can see this information. If they are so swayed, they will also see that it is not considered sound by a majority of linguists. Other subjects have these sorts of asides so I don't see why Lemnian should be treated differently. --Glengordon01 12:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Anatolian hypothesis

message: Alexander 007, why are you making imaginary enemies? I have no personal issues with you. As I've said, I think some of your points are valid but, whether you're right or wrong, everything you've been saying so far on this page is tainted with hideous amounts of anger. It's not healthy and doesn't gain you respect. 
All I am saying is that I disagree with your view about how these pages should be allowed to evolve, at least in the case of Etruscan and Lemnian studies in particular. That's it. I can't help it if you find difference of opinion threatening but difference of opinion is supposed to be the strength of Wikipedia, not the weakness you perceive it to be. By continuously responding to people in a toxically angry manner for disagreeing with you, you help to erode the functionality of this forum. There are in fact many articles already made talking precisely about this devolution because of the hatemongering of a petty few. It's a serious issue.
I've given examples showing for those that wish to look it up that indeed, Etrusco-Lemnian studies are plagued with published works that are of low-quality and replete with self-contradictions. I'm not saying that everything should be tossed out the window. I'm saying that people need to question the so-called facts, look them up, track all the relevant data down. I have, which is why I notice some problems and the persistent myths that continue on (cf. the case of <un>).
You can use whatever excuse to justify being catty, but you're still catty and in the real world, people don't respond well to cattiness. They shun those people. I also notice a pattern with you: You don't have facts to back up your claims.
User:Glengordon01
PS, just in case more anger ensues, I want to state that I understand the rules and have in fact followed them so there's no need to constantly attack me further, sheesh! User:Glengordon01
:Who's catty? You're imagining things. I have no desire to make enemies or to take jabs at people unless they take a petty jab first (as you did). I have not made any original claims regarding the Lemnian language. I'm not sure what you are requesting of editors here to do with your research, however. Alexander 007 12:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also, you make false statements: "everything you've been saying so far on this page is tainted with hideous amounts of anger"---really? My first post on this talk page regarding your edits was that I gave your translation a "provisional stamp of approval", till I realized it's original research and it cannot be used in the article. Your charges of "cattiness" don't stick. What you call "catty" I call "putting a **** who thought he was superior in check" (cf. , ). Alexander 007 13:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  And I quote: "I have no desire to make enemies " ... "putting a prick who thought he was superior in check". You're toxic. Why aren't you banned yet? --Glengordon01 13:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well gee, being called "catty" is as bad as being called a ****, so what's your point. Alexander 007 14:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually, no. Catty is an assessment of behaviour whereas prick is quite obviously an offensive slur referring to genitals. So, I think Alexander 007 should be reprimanded for abusive language. --Glengordon01 14:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: "Catty" is an attack. By the way, men don't request that other editors be reprimanded for such things. Alexander 007 14:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Men, wha'? Now you're clearly ranting like a fool. --Glengordon01 14:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Even if I were ranting, at least I'm not crying for mommy. Alexander 007 14:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: More windows to your soul. I hope you get help with your behavioural disorder. --Glengordon01 14:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Oooooooooooh. It was a reference to how some have perceived me as a forum-fascist. Excuse me if I'm strict about some things. User:Deucalionite once asked if I wanted a goosestep salute from him, after I repelled his edits from the Pelasgians article, for example. Alexander 007 14:33, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will leave that link you posted, but I will delete any others unless they are links within Lemnian language or Talk:Lemnian language. You're straying off topic. I'm already finished with this debate. Alexander 007 14:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Pretending to be a nazi? Calling people pricks? Mocking women? You know that's all over the line. Editing Deucalion's input was reasonable, for sure, but aligning yourself with one of the biggest mass murderers of all time as a joke? For pete's sake, you've fallen off the deep end, dude. --Glengordon01 14:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I apologize for calling you a ****, though writing Wikerosion then linking it into Lemnian language was reminscent of that term. Now, that's that, I trust. Alexander 007 14:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, I hope so. --Glengordon01 15:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Imaginary enemies 

message: This is a good article,  well-written and interesting, and obviously a lot of work went into it, but it is very POV in places.  For example:
   "Let's undo some of the myths that continue to rear their ugly head."
   "No, <mav> is not a numeral"
   "One of these overly debated words is <mav>"
   "Some common sense is in order"
   "So in all, it's likelier"
Part of the reason for this is a lack of ability to cite references in their absence as discussed above.
Also, it would be better to pick "stela" or "stele" and stick with it.
THB 03:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV

message: Very nice, kids.  Now the text reads, "Like Etruscan, the Lemnian language appears to have had a four-vowel system consisting of "i", "u", "a" and "e". Having a contrast between front and back vowels, it would appear to lack a high back vowel (a "u"-like sound)" which merely contradicts itself directly.
It is true that five-vowel systems /i e a o u/ are the most common ones around the world, but when, please, did any linguist think the presence of /u/ was universal? Lots and lots of Native American languages, as different as Navajo and Pirahã, have /i e a o/ systems. So I removed this.
Nevertheless, as I wrote, this may be a shared innovation of Etruscan and Lemnian -- Etruscan has /u/ but lacks /o/. This kind of drift (in both directions) is expected; for example some Cree dialects have /o/ while others have /u/ instead.
David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 13:23 CET | 2006/3/20
:Sorry! I was wrong. Pirahã only has /a i o/.
:David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 13:27 CET | 2006/3/20
:Better reference for Cree phonemes: Western Cree syllabics.
:David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 13:33 CET | 2006/3/20
Actually, contrast maximization is what makes vowel systems like {i o a e} rare at best. Naturally the height contrast between a low-back "a" and a mid-back "o" is less favourable to a contrast of "a" and "u" (high-back). However, I do agree with you that my wording was inaccurate. I was obviously not speaking about *every* language that exists. I didn't mean to refer to centralized languages where there is no front-back contrast and only high-mid /i/ either since this is outside the topic of Lemnian. I was specifically speaking of languages with front-back contrast and I suppose "/u/" should rather be reworded as "high back vowel", or a "u"-like sound. 
In regards to Cree et al, it's a matter of idiolect as to whether /o/ or /U/ might be chosen. However, this doesn't mean that it lacks "u". Roman orthography insists on "o" but this is not necessarily reflective of reality. On a whole, contrast maximization wins and favours a "u"-like sound over an "o"-like sound to maximize height contrasts. This is a universal tendency.
Lastly and more damaging, you already admit that Etruscan and Lemnian are related. You can see that Etruscan positively lacks "o", not "u". Can you not also see that since Herodotus' account of Tyrrhenian origins in Lydia is likely (considering commonality in architecture, aesthetics, divinatory customs, religion, etc) that the languages that happen to be around that area, namely Hittite and Akkadian, also lack "o"? Clearly then, your edit is premature and you need to learn more about this subject before getting proactive.
--Glengordon01 21:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of /u/ is normal! 

message: I cut out someone's ESL rambling. I'm not sure what he's trying to say except that he's one of those
Pro-Albanian oddballs who is more interested in nationalism than logical truth:
  "Is very interesting, how nobody didn't prefere pregreek language - illyrian (dardanian language,
    Language of Zeus and Olymp God's Language), besides Etruscan language. [...] To translate any script 
    of any stele, as an Lemnos stele, help already, Old Albanian Language - Gegenian Language, or as 
    called Dardanian Language, [...] This theory have accepted and today's Europian Arceology."
Whatever. Try another website to spout this nonsense, buddy. Your theory would be more believable if you
knew how to spell and respected the grammar of human language. We have
to be vigilant against these kinds of irrational pet theories that pervade the field of Tyrrhenian linguistics.
--Glengordon01 20:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pro-Albanian ilk 

message: I stumbled upon this article by chance, and don't get me wrong - I am no expert in this field! However - the use of language and POV is UNWORTHY of the standards Wikipedia strives to achieve, and if one is not altogether that familiar with common usage of the English language, perhaps one ought to REFRAIN from writing articles in it.
I like the article, but felt I had to make at least a few changes to the blatant vulgarisms I found.
Apart from that - keep up the good work!
--Sparviere 23:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: hm, I don't get your point. Sparviere did some straightforward stylistic edits. There is a lot of this sort of work left on Wikipedia, and of course it should be done, that's no big deal. dab (ᛏ) 07:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A little decency, please

message: I substituted "stele" for approx. three instances of "stela" for consistency reasoning that stele is Greek and stela is Latin so considering the time and place, Greek is more appropriate. -THB 23:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Stela vs stele

message: I saw this reference in there (the only one):
*Dieter H. Steinbauer, Neues Handbuch des Etruskischen 1999, pages 357-366.
The custom now is to put the page references in notes and the work under bibliography. What prevents me from doing that is the lack of any statement as to what material is covered by the pages! So I am going ahead and converting it to a bibiography item without the pages and when you gentlemen can tie the substance in to the pages, go ahead and create notes for it. You can follow my example(s).
I'll be putting in a lot of citation requests. This rather long and detailed article has no citations! No lack of words is evident either in the article or in the discussion. The point is to be putting in authoritative words. Remember, no original research allowed.Dave 00:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The "Reference"

message: This whole subsection looks like original research to me. This author has these things in several articles and offers us free decipherments of the unknown scripts but he nowhere gives any citations on any of it. So, until such time as the citations appear, I am taking it out and putting it here.Dave 01:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eteocypriot and Eteocretan (Minoan)

message: I got to leave this for the moment but there are a lot of organizational issues and oh by the way don't forget to put your page numbers in there.Dave 01:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: I'll be back

message: :What is this turkish theory (http://www.compmore.net/~tntr/lemstelea.html) thing? are kiding? Who the hell is POLAT KAYA and why is he credited? By whom is he considered a serious scientist? is he scientist at all?
:Can I put something too in the text? About the extraterrestial origins of the Lemnians? or about the Atlantian herritage of them? 
:I 'll get rid of the link and the quote, but it's allready the second time I have to do it!
--Yangula 11:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  WTF is this ? 

message: First what is thrown in eyes this is that very much many marks ζ. 
What gives satem character of language, then there are palatal *K and *T went in *dz(*tz). 
Second, this is bad difference of sonorous and deaf, what is characteristic for many south indo-european languages: hettite, toharian, and (non-indo-european?)Etruscan. 
These statements is in agreement with that, that pelasgian word "goat" it is testified in number of greek dialects (ιξάλη, ιζάλη, ιζάνη, ισάλη, ισσέλα, ιτθέλα, ισθλη, ισσέλη),that shows alternation ξ(ks) and ζ(dz), with gradual loss of stops in τθ, σθ, σσ, σ (that is characteristic for all satem languages). In IE the word was "qogʲ-éloH". Then *q>0, *o>i by umlaut of following e, *gʲ>ξ, *é>(e/o/ə/0), *l>l>n, *oH>ā/ē.
It is possible to do finding that before us indo-european language IE rather early parting from other languages, like anatolian languages, but forming own family of languages. Big correlations can be explained with etruscan with primordial relationship or sub (or ad) stratic relations, to consider etruscan out of dependence from that like indo-european with big admixture of non-indo-european, or on the contrary. 
 
Complex locatives are bound with that, that sooner than all genitive and local cases were not separated in indo-european from other cases and / or did not have completions. So or in all languages they otherwise are new formation (let even very ancient) from other cases. Locative semantics is sufficient is complex and not to dispense with one case for expression of space ratios within language. Then it is possible to say the most also about genitive.
:I am a native English speaker (and a former school textbook editor), and I do not properly understand what you are trying to say here. It looks as if it might be interesting and useful, so please, if you can, find a more fluent English speaker/writer to re-write your text, so that we can understand what you are suggesting. (I do not mean to insult you - I cannot write your language at all! :-) ) 87.81.230.195 (talk) 12:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Explanation  

message: Let me confess at the outset that I have never seen the Lemnos stele /stela.  But I have seen two different reproductions.  And I must say that the chap looks bare-headed to me.
--Mjhrynick (talk) 01:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I can see where you're coming from here, and I don't entirely disagree.  However, several good images are now available on Google Image search, and show the line down the middle of the face, indicating that the depicted person is wearing some head covering, whether it be cap, cowl, coif, or helmet.   It is absolutely not a helmet as we recognize it, and was probably made of hide or fabric.  Ironlion45 (talk) 02:06, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Helmeted? 

message: MOURNING, we are in full mourning,
anguish, ill luck all over,
women covered with black veils.
Grief you have given to the kinship, oh kinsman!
He belongs to our stock, Ah! , Oh!
He was torn away from us, what misfortune.
But in order which guilt, this disaster?
Gelid is his golden throne, Ah!
Of his fame we were proud, Oh!
Grief, grief in the whole world,
tearing him away, we are beheaded!
This grief struck us suddently, ah!
Alas, who knows for what fault? Oh!
Our kinsman he was,
Why ever did he struck us with such grief?
In Grief and despair, ah!
tears choke us, Oh!
He, who kept up our stock,
for what fault, now does he extinguish it?
Ah! Oh!
Oh! precious he was,
knife wounds, oh misfortune,
he suffered so much!
In Silence, never uttering an insult!
Ah! Oh!
You, kinsman, you have beheaded us, Oh!
You, great affliction you have given us, Ah! Oh!”  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.222.8 (talk) 18:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Stele of Lemno from Albanian in English ..!

message: Transcription symbols š and s is different in Lemnos stelle and Efestia inscription. Best way is in using Greece alphabet as on Russian site.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.16.156.18 (talk) 09:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Different transcription 

message: As it stands the section 'Vowels' states that Lemnian had ' "u" ' (ie what I've put in single quotes) and that it lacks '/u/'. I know nothing about Lemnian (or Etruscan for that matter) so maybe this makes sense to a specialist in that particular field, but it seems contradictory to me. Dougg (talk) 13:12, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Vowels contradiction

message: I have not followed the development of this article.  However, now, the second sentence of the introduction states:
::However, fragments of inscriptions on local pottery show that it was spoken there by a community.
I'm going to remove the "However", since there is nothing in the first sentence to which it contrasts.
I do have a guess, though.  From what I've read "somewhere" (and no, I'm not able to recall where), the obvious similarity to Etruscean and the isolated find of just one inscription made someone (who, I don't remember) suggest that the text had been written by temporary Etruscian visitors, e. g., merchants.  If my memory is correct, then the meaning of the "However" might have been to intoduce a refusal: Since later there were finds of other types, there must have been a community of lemnian-speakers living there, as opposite to only temporary visitors.
If this indeed was the idea of the "However", anyone with more knowledge (and their sources in better order:-) than I have would be welcome to write a section about the history of the finds and the development of the present hypotheses and understanding of the langue, from the very first find and hypothesis, and onwards.  I do not think that there will be any need for mentioning such older hypotheses in the introduction, though.  Best, JoergenB (talk) 13:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unmotivated "However", or missing reference to abandoned hypothesis. 

message: //http://www.martinus.sk/?uItem=28259.html
//http://www.zvedavec.org/klasika/2009/01/2979-o-slovanech-uplne-jinak.html
:ŽIjAŽiJÍ
:MjÁ RAŽ:MAV-
:UJÁC CHVĚJÍŽ: AVÍj: Z-
:ĚVÍU HÓ: ZĚRO NA IH
:ŽIVÁJI
:„žijúci
:mne rozmlúv-
:ajúc chvejúc, abych z-
:javil čo pozorujúc na nich
:živých“
:HÓCAJ Ě Z NÁŠČ-CH
:ÁKJER-j TAVÁRŽIČ
:VAMJÁCAUJAČ ZĚRO NÁJ MÓR ÍMAJÍC
:„hoci je z našich
:akrov (polí) tovariš
:vynucovač, zíram naň, smrť majúc.“
:HÓCAJ VŽJÍ POKJÁ SIJÁCĚ-j ZĚRO ZA IH ĚVIJU HO
:TO VĚRÓ NA-
:ŽÍVAJÍ AVÍJ-Ž SIJÁC CHVÍJ-Ž MARÁLM-j AVÍJ-Ž
:Á O MAJ-
:RÓM-j HARÁČIJÓ-j ČIVÁJ ĚCTĚ ŽIJÓ Á RÁJI TICH:POKĚ-j
:„Hoci všetci, pokial sejú, pozerám za nich a zjavujem, čo
:to vierou na-
:zívajú? Aby sme sejúc chvejúc mreli. Aby sme
:aj o mŕt-
:vich bojovníkoch hlásali: dívaj, ešte žijú a v raji, tichý, pokojný.“
195.91.14.140 (talk) 18:42, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Its Slavic talk. 

message: *For Siva, who died (at the age) of 65 years
*During the kingship of Holaie, the grand-son of Sla,
*over Serona and Myrina,
*he was appointed to acro-governor at Serona
*For Siva, who died (at the age) of 65 years
*(During the reign) of the Phokaian Holaie,
*he was appointed to municipal governor at Serona
*The citizens have erected this for Siva (the son) of Epte
*(translated by Woudhuizen) Böri (talk) 07:59, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Translation of Lemnos Stele 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified