Talk:List of Latin-script alphabets/Archive 1

message: In the table header, shouldn't one show also the upper case dotless "I" and the lower case dotted "i"? True, they are identical to the plain latin letters.  But the way the table is now, it looks as if those these letters do not exist in the Turkish alphabet.  (Note that this situation is different from that of ess-zet, where the uppercase form is really non-existant.)Jorge Stolfi 15:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Hm... good point. -- pne 16:21, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

text: Changed now. -- pne 16:36, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkish dotted/undotted I

message: HELP... Portuguese uses also the letters "Ê", "Ô", "Ã", and "Õ" which are not on the table.  Unfortunately adding the letters by hand is near impossible, and after spending a couple of hours trying to do it by script I concluded that it was just as hard.  If you have the tools, could you please do that for me? Thanks...Jorge Stolfi 17:19, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: French also has Ê and Ô (as well as Û), and I when I added Maltese I wanted to add C-dot, G-dot, and H-bar as well. I'll see whether I have time to do this. -- pne 06:09, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

text: OK, done. French, Portuguese, and Maltese should now be complete. -- pne 12:39, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks!! And for splitting the table, too — it is much better now.Jorge Stolfi 15:02, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: More characters needed

message: I've changed the table: it should be easier to edit/add new alphabets now.
I've removed all diacritics, ligatures and other letters which do not exist in ASCII to after the Z.
I've also removed the Esperanto X-system: the letters like Cx are just a workaround for non-Unicode systems. If we include the X-system we ought to include the German 'e-system' as well, where ä becomes ae etc.. Jor 15:32, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The table is a pain, if another character is to be added. Are the accented vowels really different letters in Scots Gaelic? Many languages include diacritics which are not here marked, but only a few see these as different letters. Jor 10:43, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Table changed 

message: Why are the Ø and Œ columns in front of all the A's in the "Extended Latin Alphabet" table? I would expect them with the O's. The ß is with the S's, after all. Does anyone mind if I change this?
—Herbee 21:51, 2004 Mar 18 (UTC)
:They Ø is only there because when I changed the table I didn't move it, and the Œ was inserted later. It probably makes more sense to put them with the O's. — Jor (Darkelf) 22:09, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Alphabet order

message: It seems wrong to include just a random subset of languages in the table and leave the rest as links. On the other hand, if one were to include a couple more languages, the table would not fit in the screen anymore. Vietnamese alone.  Also the table does not show the collating order. So I propose a different organization: 
:(1) a table with one row for each language, that lists the alphabet in collating order, without vertical alignment:
:: Latin: A Æ, B, C, ...
:: Pinyin:A Á À &Abrevis; &Acaron; ...
:(2) a separate table for each base Latin letter, showing all modifications of that letter used in various languages.  These tables would be formatted like the present ones, with one row per language and one column per modified form.
What do you think?Jorge Stolfi 17:28, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd be inclined to say that collating order can go in the "XYZ alphabet" article which is linked from the bottom. -- pne 06:08, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Trouble ahead

message: I've never seen the use of an N-tilde, rather than the digraph Ng (and it's a different phoneme, it's an eng like in thing, not an enye like in canyon. I'm removing it for now, but feel free to prove me wrong, if you have a reference to back you up ;o) — OwenBlacker 20:40, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
:I agree with you -- it doesn't exist in Welsh. -- Arwel 21:39, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: While we're on the subject of Welsh, Ŵ and Ŷ are not actually separate letters so shouldn't be in the bottom table. Also, the note is wrong -- acute, grave, circumflex and diaeresis accents are used in Welsh on all 7 vowels. See this handy guide. Gareth 15:44, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  &Ntilde; in Welsh?! 

message: I have added Ü to the list of French variants. It is extremely rare, being used primarily in names such as Esaü or Saül, but it does exist. Kelisi 18:31, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Occitan needs to be added into the list of languages, cuz it has the Ü also. at least that's what it states in the 'umlaut (diacritic)' article. Ivansevil 23:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ü in French 

message: The 46-character Romany alphabet should be added to this list. -- Karada 15:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. (After 2 years from you have requested.) -- 11:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need to add the Romany alphabet to this list 

message: I have changed from Letters based on A-I/J-Z to Letters based on A-J/K-Z since I and J were historically related.--Hello World! 15:16, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: tables amended

message: There are many characters missing, notably extended characters used in a number of African languages, a few less widely spoken European ones (Saami), and for som indigenous languages in the Americas and Australia. Many of the ones I am noticing that are missing happen also to be in the Unicode IPA range (the lower case versions). This also means that the languages of these regions are also missing. Altogether that would imply that a complete table (set of tables) would get very, very large. The tables that are here are good but - given the nature of the subject - far from complete. What would be the appropriate way to procede? Just add away? --A12n 17:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many missing characters 

message: #First, the footnotes are a mess. The ones on the table don't match the ones below, and clicking on them does nothing.
#Secondly, I can't make out what the Extensions table is supposed to represent: All the symbols used in a language? (Then where's Guarani's Ã, Ẽ, Ĩ, for example?) Only the symbols that are included in the official alphabet? (Then French and Portuguese Á, Â, German Ä, Ö, etc., have no business being there.) 
#Third, it should be made clearer which digraphs are counted as part of the alphabet in each language, and which ones are not.
I hope this criticism serves to improve the article. FilipeS 13:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Unsure about the purpose of the Extensions table

message: Northern Sami also uses diacritics. I think that it isn't able to include all alphabets derived from the Latin, because Latin alphabet is employed in a lot of writing system, but is this article respecting the neutrality? Might we include all alphabets? Pasqual (ca) · CUT 15:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other languages

message: In the "Basic Latin Alphabet" section, click the footnote on the word Latin. Doesn't work. Don't know how to fix without converting to new ref tag format. —Keenan Pepper 21:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Footnote links are broken 

message: It is said that Spanish has one of the alphabets with 26 letters, where it is completely false, as Ñ is considered a letter, placed after N in the alphabet, and NOT considered a variant. This makes 27 letters. —Jago84 13:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Plese read the section again. Nowhere does it say that the Spanish alphabet had exactly 26 letters, just that it has at least 26 letters, because it includes all of the classic roman alphabet. Later on the situations of ñ, ch, ll and even ç are described briefly at least once. Christoph Päper 13:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ñ is a letter in Spanish 

message: I deleted an edit by a user who had added ï, é, è, ö, ü, ë, ä to the Dutch alphabet. Someone else reverted my edit, giving the examples Oekraïne, oké, blèren, coördinatie, vacuüm, poëzie, Aäron. O.K., but some of those are clearly loanwords. Are these characters used for writing vernacular Dutch? If not, I don't think they should be listed in the alphabet. FilipeS 20:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ï/ü/ë/ä/ö aren't characters in the Dutch alphabet, but the "trema" (umlaut) is used when there two vowels in a row and the combination would sound differently without a trema. For instance, the word "kopiëren" is written with a trema because the vowel combination "ie" would normally be a stretched i, while that word is pronounced "kopi-eren". The trema can basically be used on any vowel when it is necessary for clarity of the pronunciation, but is never considered to be part of the alphabet, as the sound of the letter does not change (i.e. ï still sounds like an i in "Oekraïne", but is not part of a diphthong, which it would be if it didn't have a trema). é and è are almost exclusively used in loanwords (particularly of French origin), or in more "informal" words (the example "oké" given above is the abbreviation O.K. written out fully, and "blèren" is an onomatopoeia roughly meaning crying/yelling, and there are not many of these words). Salaskan 22:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch alphabet 

message: This article should be renamed. "Alphabets derived from the Latin" is dreadful English. Any suggestions? FilipeS 15:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Roman alphabets (the Latin alphabet is that of the Latin language, the ones derived are called roman by several scholars), Roman alphabet, Roman alphabet variants, Roman alphabet variations … — Christoph Päper 18:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

text: It's perfectly good and standard English, though it can mean two different things. The way it's understood here is with 'Latin' as an adjective and implied repeated noun 'alphabet' or equivalent: Alphabets derived from the Latin = Alphabets derived from the Latin one = Alphabets derived from the Latin alphabet. But also, in somewhat older style, we can say 'the Latin' with implied noun 'language': circus is a word borrowed from the Latin. In this sense, it is equivalent to omitting the 'the': Alphabets derived from the Latin = Alphabets derived from Latin. But this is not the sense we want, since they don't 'come from Latin' the way words do. 11:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename? 

message: W is not a letter in Swedish, Swedish language are only use for foreign words.--Michael Peter Fustumum 08:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aren't words such as "wow" and "webb" (Swedish spelling of "web") established enough nowadays even if they are loans? /Jiiimbooh (talk) 19:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I read that the word "webb" was the word that made the difference in having W as a Swedish letter. That word was considered an established word now. Usually loan words with W (usually english/german) have been changed to V, but not now. English language is too well known. "Wow" is not a word used in writing so much. What's used in talk does not influence the alphabet. -- BIL (talk) 22:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  W in Swedish? 

message: OKay, I am slightly confused. The article is titled Alphabets derived from latin. However, in the basic latin alphabet table it has arabic row, with some arabic letters.
But, this is quite misleading since it goes against the articles title that is: Alphabets DERIVED from latin. 
It is quite the opposite actually, latin is derived from old persian. The script used in Farsi closely resembled Arabic with additional letters (just like swedish and english).
I dont think arabic should exist (in the same way farsi doesnt exist). What does everyone else think? --Waqas1987 (talk) 12:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The "Arabic" line is for Romanizations of Arabic. I agree that it should be better explained. Romanizations shouldn't be presented as the same thing as using of the Latin alphabet in regular orthography. Perhaps they shouldn't even be in the table.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by FilipeS (talk • contribs) 15:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  OKay, I have removed Arabic from the table since its not longer useful. However, if anyone wishes it to be in the table ( but it shouldn't be given the articles title), then a note should be added at least (which I added but later reverted by FilipsS). btw, latin is influenced from Old Persian and slight Arabic. --Waqas1987 (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I also think Revised Romanization of Korean should be removed too. I mean if u think that should be there, then u might as well add Romanization of Chinese, Japanese and every other language in the world. --Waqas1987 (talk) 19:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree. You can remove it. But we should add a note to the text saying that the Latin alphabet is also used in the Romanization of various languages. FilipeS (talk) 11:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done, I added a short subsection in the Other alphabets based on the Latin alphabet section, regarding the romanization of other languages. --Waqas1987 (talk) 18:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Basic Latin  Alphabet confusions 

message: To stop the edit war between me and User:Chinese has a V about the usage of C in Swedish and Danish, I will discuss this. It is true that Danish uses "kk" for words like Tjekkien. But Danish uses C for other words, as can be seen in large articles in Danish Wikipedia like :da:Danmark. Examples: placeret, procent, centralmagt, Renæssancen, eksemplificeret, officiell, procedure, kompliceret and more. Swedish uses "ck" instead of "kk" which is enough reason to include it. Example words picked from a Swedish article sv:Danmark include: cirka, december, dock, dricksvatten, ingick, lyckas, och, också, officiell, precis, procent, sträcker. --BIL (talk) 11:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that many Danish words are spelled with a C, but note that those are invariably loan words. Danish tends to preserve C in imported words whenever the C  denotes an /s/ sound, whereas a C that represents /k/ will eventually be normalized to K. –Henning Makholm 02:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: C in Swedish and Danish

message: I don't see why the letter Q isn't listed in the basic alphabet table for German. The headline comment says, "The Afrikaans, Catalan [6], Danish [9], Dutch [10], English [36], Filipino [11], Finnish [11], French [12], German [13], Interlingua, Kurdish, Malay, Norwegian [9], Slovak [24], Spanish [25], Swedish, Võro and Zulu alphabets officially contain all 26 letters at least. But not all are used in the vernacular, aside from foreign names and rare unassimilated loanwords."; however, several native or sufficiently assimilated words ("Qualle", "Quelle", "quer", "Qual", ...) have been using that letter since, according to Wiktionary, the Old High German stage at least. I propose the addition of that letter to the table.
Similar argumentation is possible for the letter X ("Axt", axe), though I think it is considerably more rare in native words.
--Blackhole89 (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  German and the letter Q