Talk:Oblique case

message: I find it very odd (actually, wrong and contradictory) that the absolutive case of ergative languages is referred here as a kind of oblique case. An oblique case is supposed to be a marked/secondary case, as opposed to the unmarked/primary/citation/direct case which corresponds to the "plain" form of a word. In accusative languages like English, the primary case is the nominative and the secondary/marked/oblique case is the accusative (a word in the nominative is said to be in its "plain" or unmarked form and this is the form used to cite the word; e.g. "I" and "who" are the plain forms while "me" and "whom" are the oblique forms); if there are other cases apart from those two, like the dative in Latin and German, these are also oblique cases. But in ergative languages (such as Basque), the primary/unmarked case is the absolutive, while the ergative is secondary and marked (e.g. in Basque the "plain", primary form of the first person singular pronoun is "ni", in the absolutive, while the ergative form "nik" is a clearly marked, secondary case just like other oblique cases such as the dative "niri" and the genitive "nire"). Uaxuctum 12:17, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think it really says that; it's trying to contrast nominative/oblique with absolutive/ergative.  It perhaps can be clearer.  -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: in ergative languages

message: Yeah, so this article is really hard to read for someone who has a rudimentary understanding of linguistics.
:In linguistics (or generally in the linguistic sciences), an oblique case (Lat. casus generalis) is a noun case of analytic languages that is used generally when a noun is the predicate of a sentence or a preposition. An oblique case can appear in any case relationship except the nominative case of a sentence subject or the vocative case of direct address.
::Too many parentheticals in the first sentence makes it really hard to follow.  Can appear in any case relationship?  What does that mean?
:Languages with a nominative/oblique case system also contrast with those who have an absolutive/ergative case system. In ergative-absolutive languages, the absolutive case is used for a direct object (the subject will then be in the ergative case); but the absolutive case is also used for the subject of an intransitive verb, where the subject is being passively described, rather than performing an action.
::I have very little idea what I'm being told in this paragraph.
:Bulgarian, the only analytic Slavic language, also has an oblique case - or, rather, two of them at pronouns (cf. English "Give me that ball" and "Give that ball to me") and one (syntactically and grammatically speaking) at nouns.
::Also has an oblique case?  There weren't any listed before it.  And the sentence goes on to be packed pull of parentheticals.  Syntactically and grammatically speaking?  Is that even necessary?  And wouldn't syntactically imply grammatically?  And is this paragraph even relevant? NickelShoe 19:46, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Um...please? NickelShoe 19:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Style

message: Should this article be merged with Object (grammar)? FilipeS 01:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge with Object (grammar)?

message: I don't really understand why the Bulgarian example is an oblique case, since there seems to be a distinction between dative and accusative. I think the object forms of pronouns in English and Dutch would be better examples. Ucucha 16:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Our article says, "These personal pronouns have both a short and a long form for the accusative and the dative." It sounds as though the difference in form is not acc vs dat. — kwami (talk) 19:41, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulgarian 

message: The article says that ˝me˝ is not used in the genitive case of possession, but in rural English it very often is ˝That's me tractor you's stealin'˝ 93.96.96.27 (talk) 00:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Added. — kwami (talk) 19:41, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think that's actually the same. Thats a sound change changing my to mi - but it doesn't sound the same as "me" because its unstressed and lax. "Me" in "Me tractor" doesn't sound the same as the "me" in "Me Tarzan you Jane".·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:17, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  me - genitive 

message: I'm afraid that the explanation of what the oblique case is, does not do much for those without profound knowledge of linguistics. Someone with a deep understanding of the subject matter should make an attempt at making things clearer. LaughingSkull (talk) 00:44, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll have to second that. I came here after encountering the term "oblique case" elsewhere, and I still have *no* idea what it means. And I do have some "basic plus" knowledge of grammar (although mainly in a language other than English). 85.228.188.241 (talk) 00:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

text: It's 12 years later and the explanation is still completely incoherent to a non-grammarian (i.e. me). 68.193.122.198 (talk) 16:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clearer explanation required 

message: The recently created Dative/Accusative is a content fork for this article. I'm sure there are languages with an acc/dat (objective?) case, but not in English, and the article was created to illustrate English (is the link from English object pronouns). — kwami (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: It's both unsourced and factually incorrect; although the terms 'accusative' and 'dative' are used in some English grammars, it's generally accepted that they are the same thing. There is certainly no difference between having two cases which are the same, and having one case which does two things: Both are a single morphological form that covers two syntactic roles. — kwami (talk) 07:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The FORMS are the same, the cases not.  If you can't separate consideration of forms from the cases themselves then you shouldn't be editing anything on case.  Sorry.  And this is neither unsourced nor original research.  Your pushing the idea of a new case in English IS on the other hand either your own original research or that of a minority of people who do not represent the consensus.Drew.ward (talk) 07:24, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course the forms are the cases! Case is a morphological category. An inflectional form. If the forms are the same, the case is the same. You're confusing case, a morphological category, with case role, a syntactic category. The only question is whether the difference between "I" and "me" is one of case at all, not how many cases "me" is. Jesperson put "case" in scare quotes, and Quirk, Hudson, and Blevins deny that English has case at all, rather than positional allomorphs. But the only reason the terms 'dative' and 'accusative' are used with English is the influence of Latin, German, etc. grammar. "Me" is a single case; whether we call it objective, oblique, or dative/accusative is merely a terminological preference. — kwami (talk) 07:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  merg (acc/dat) 

message: *oblique   1. Designating any case other than subject(ive). In an inflected language, all inflected cases of nouns, pronouns, and adjectives (other than subject(ive), i.e. NOMINATIVE) are covered by this umbrella term. In English the term is occasionally applied to the object forms of those pronouns that have them.
*objective   1. (n. & adj.) (The case) expressing the object. The differences between Subjective pronouns (or subject pronouns) (e.g. I, she, they, etc.) and objective pronouns (or object pronouns) (e.g. me, her, them, etc.) can be described in terms of subjective and objective case. 3. (n. & adj.) (In Case Grammar.) (Designating) one of six original cases, defined by meaning, that underlie surface structure. This case, sometimes also called AFFECTED or PATIENT, is narrower than the traditional object case.
*case   1. The functional role of a noun or noun phrase in relation to other words in the clause or sentence. 2. The form of a word (shown by inflection) expressing this. In English (unlike Latin, which has six cases) the only distinction of case in nouns is between the COMMON case (i.e. the ordinary base form for the singular: boy, with plural boys) and the GENITIVE (boy's, boys'). Even this analysis is disputed, since the genitive inflection can be added not only to a word, but also to a phrase (e.g. the King of Spain's daughter), which may not even end with a noun (e.g. the man opposite's car).·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:44, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Oxford concise dictionary of English Grammar:

message: Oblique case refers to any case except the Nominative or Vocative (thus possessive and object cases are the oblique cases.)
I have corrected the introduction. (EnochBethany (talk) 16:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The dictionary is not a reliable source, and in any case your edit would be more appropriate for Wiktionary.  — kwami (talk) 16:35, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Saying that Merriam-Webster is not a reliable source is absurd.  It is a standard and long-established authority. The edit is directly appropriate to this article.  Please do not revert it or edit war over it. I have not reverted or erased anything in this article.  But I have made an addition.  (EnochBethany (talk) 16:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Merriam-Webster

message: The concept of case is greatly confused and misunderstood.  Case has commonly been confused with suffix use.  But even suffixes in English are often neglected.  For example, what case is the -ward case?  North is a noun as in the sentence, "John walked to the North."  "To" here supplies the case; prepositions indicate case just as suffixes do in inflected languages.   The suffix -ward could have been used:  "John walked northward."  In high school, there was no vocative case in my English classes.  But the particle O could have been called the case marker of the vocative case:  "O John, come here."  And O might have been called a preposition in this use.  Compare, "To John I come." IMHO, there are many, many cases; most not named as such, but roughly equal in number to the variety in suffixes that indicate relation to the sentence plus prepostions, plus word-order markers.  Probably picking some of them to call "oblique," is questionable and arbitrary.(EnochBethany (talk) 16:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: The Concept of Case

message: This article is a mess. I am comfortable with the subject material as I am a researcher in area - but I cannot follow the main article. The discussion on the talk page is much clearer.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.250.86.130 (talk) 02:43, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: please rewrite this article

message: What's casus generalis?
"oblique case" in Latin is "casus obliquus" (cf. Latin-German: Kasus obliquus, Obliquus, obliquer Kasus).
Google book search has these results for "casus generalis":
* "Im Mittelpersischen gab es keine verschiedenen Casus mehr, sondern nur einen Casus generalis." - 'In Middle Persian there were not different cases anymore, but just a general case'. I.e.: casus generalis is a single case - so pretty much like with english substantive (the house, to the house, of the house), if one doesn't label forms with -'s (house's) genitive or possessive case anymore.
* "[...] italischen Sprachen [...] die Übernahme griechischer Lehnwörter im Akkusativ erfolgt. Dieser beginnt damit seine Rolle als Casus generalis anzutreten." - 'in italic languages worrds were adopted in their accusative form. Thus this case is becoming a general case'. That sounds like one case is replacing all others and thus becoming the only case, similiar to english substantives (see above).
* "In some Serbian Torlak dialects [...] we also find feminine forms in the so called casus generalis (historical Accusative)". That sounds like the accusative case replaced all other cases and became the only case.
* "Klwnn zeigt, daß das Wort aus der Vulgärsprache [...] ins Syrische gelangt war. Der Akkusativ [chelÓnEn - greek letters, capital ones instead of macrons] war bereits zum Casus generalis geworden" - 'The word klwnn shows that the word came from the vulgare language into the syric language. The accusative [greek word form] already became the general case.' That sounds like the accusative case replaced all others, at least all other word forms in case of this single word.
* "eine steigende Tendenz zur Durchbrechung von Rektionsregeln zugunsten eines casus generalis (=Nom./Akk.)" - 'a tendency of breaking inflection rules to form a general case (=nom./acc.)". That sounds like some speakers of a language ignore the correct inflection rules in a way that a general case is formed whose single form is like the nominative and accusative form. Like cf. german "drei Männer gehen" and "dreien Männer gab er" (nominative and dative case) with english "three men go or are going" and "to three men he gave" (like a single general case).
* Erben (1972 [..]) erläutert [...], dass lat. casus genitivus eine "unrichtige Lehnübersetzung" [..] ist [...]. Die angemessene lateinische Entsprechung sei "casus generalis, d. h. Kasusform, welche die Gattung oder den Zugehörigkeitsbereich der näher bestimmten Größe angibt, bei adverbalem Gebrauch den Wirkungsbereich der Verbalhandlung". - 'Erben explains that lat. casus genitivus is a wrong translation. Die correct latin term would be casus generalis'. I.e.: casus generalis = genitive. While there were/are many antique latin terms for genitive case (casus patricus, casus patrius, casus paternus, casus interrogandi), I've not found "casus generalis" used for this. The different between this "casus generalis" and the above ones can be explained this way: Latin generalis (-e) (adjective) means both, "Of or belonging to a kind or species, generic (very rare)" which is the sense used here, and "Of or relating to all, general" which is the sense used above.
So: Accourding to this google book search results "casus generalis" should be a single case (i.e. there are no other cases) which is something different than "casus obliquus" (there is also the casus rectus or there are the casus recti). -EXplodit (talk) 11:26, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  casus generalis