Talk:Paul and Gnosticism

message: I deleted the following two paragraphs from near the end of the article because they are factually in error.
: Clement of Rome, who lived at the end of the first century, and is considered by the early Christian church a saint, vigourously attacked Paul's teachings, going so far as to state that the vision Paul is alleged to have had, on the way to Damascus, originated from a demon. Clement was the 3rd/4th pope, and was strongly anti-gnostic, in his homilies even asserting his opinion that Paul is a dangerous heretic who should be expelled from the church. Other early christians, such as Justin Martyr, chose not to mention Paul at all.
: Some scholars, such as Elaine Pagels, take this as evidence that Paul, and consequently early Christianity, was originally gnostic, rather than literalist. Clement himself demonstrates such a view of Paul, corroborating the claim by Valentinus, a gnostic, that Paul had initiated his teacher, Theudas into the Deeper Mysteries of Christianity, which revealed a secret gnostic doctrine of God.
These homilies are generally thought to have been written in the early third century, possibly based on earlier material that may have been written in the late second century. Second, they discuss Simon Magus by name, not Paul, although some scholars speculate that Simon was an encoded reference to Paul. Based on the dating alone, they could not have been written by Clement of Rome. Wesley 17:22, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clementine homilies 

message: I find it ironic that this is in here. In it's full context, this verse is actually having a go at Gnosticism! Read verse 1 Corinthians 8-10 in its entirity: "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." That seems to be refuting Gnosticism! the clue here is that he is saying that where there is knowledge, it will pass away. Considering that Gnosticism was based on "knowledge" I think it would be strange for a Gnostic Paul to say that knowledge would pass away, don't you think? 
Another thing is, Plato didn't necessarily hold the view that he knew nothing. Socrates did, and Plato wrote about it. To say that about Plato shows a deep misunderstanding of the man and his writing. - Ta bu shi da yu 10:59, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Which translation are you using? You never say. I use the NIV, a well respected translation. And also, if this is CheeseDreams, you're blocked from editing, . - Ta bu shi da yu 02:13, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidently, you might like to note that if Evangelicals dispute this (which you know about, clearly) then it is highly POV of you not have noted this in your text! Oh, and incidently, see Special:Contributions/81.156.182.159. I notice that you have attempted to say that I am POV pushing. How exactly? I have just removed unsourced material. Maybe when you get back from your one week block (about to be extended, incidently) you can add this material back, but this time say what your sources are in the text either as an inline reference or as a footnote? It's not much to ask, surely? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:32, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Through a glass, darkly" 

message: Paul also can be construed as referring to the initiation system of the mystery religions. In 2 Corinthians, Paul refers to those who are novices in the religion as having veils over their face as their mind was blinded, a principle that mystery religions considered true and as such some made their novices wear veils and referred to them as mystae (i.e. having closed eyes).
:What?! Clearly, CheeseDreams is talking about 2 Corinthians 3:7-18. Here's the translation of the NIV:
::But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
::Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. 
:Sorry, but that is not in any way, shape, or form referring to novices! Paul is saying that the "children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament because the veil is taken away in Christ." What was written here is highly dubious, so I'm taking it out until we can get a source for this opinion. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:00, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Mystery religion initiation

message: The article states: "Paul cut his hair at Cenchreae, waiting for a ship to Ephesus, despite the Jewish prohibition on doing so outside of Jerusalem." That's the first I've heard of this. What source states this? Would someone be able to clarify it? If not, I'm going to take it out. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:52, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the haircut is mentioned in the NT, but I've never heard of that prohibition, and it seems unlikely. I'll remove them both, as the haircut by itself isn't worth mentioning. Wesley 05:50, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish practices

message: Coming back to look at this article again, the whole thing reads like an essay arguing for a point, rather than an encyclopedia article. It cites almost no sources, but rather puts forth arguments for a POV. With this in mind, I think it should be majorly overhauled, or possibly even considered for deletion. Wesley 17:18, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't agree with deleting it. I do agree with a major overhaul! - Ta bu shi da yu 23:51, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overarching problem 

message: The following:
:The terms Paul uses for perfected Christianity, such as (in the standard translation) Mature and to the level of maturity and the perfect man, actually use the greek word Teleioi, which means initiated, a principle also used in the hellenic mystery religions. In particular, in 1 Corinthians, we speak wisdom amongst the perfected also translates we speak of Sophia amongst the initiated (Sophia being a spiritual entity to the gnostics, as well as the Greek word for "wisdom"), something which the gnostic Valentinians quoted as proof that Paul initiated Christians into the gnostic ideas of Sophia.
does not give the verse in 1 Corinthians, so I am unable to verify this information. Until this is clarified, it's going. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:14, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Chapter 2.  It's a few verses.  In verse 2:6 specifically Paul says: "We speak of Sophia among the intiated.  Yet not the sophia of this world or the sophia of the archons of this world who come to naught."  Much of the impact is lost in english.  Sophia is the proper name of the goddess of wisdom as well as common name for wisdom in general.  The "archons of this world" also multiple meanings referring to Roman rulers as well as the demiurge.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.33.153.28 (talk) 06:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which 1 Corinthians verse? 

message: I have removed:
:For example, Lilitu (mentioned in Isaiah) is usually translated screech owl, which has very little significance in a wider picture, rather than Lilith, a reference to a child snatching demon, that some ancient Jewish legends held to have been Adam's first wife.
until I can get some info on what part of Isaiah is being referred to, and to see where this source of information is coming from. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:30, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As for himself, in 1 Corinthians, Paul considers he is a Steward of the mysteries of God, which was also the technical term for a priest in the Egyptian version of the mystery religions where the central figure is the god Serapis. 
because it is unclear where exactly this info is from! Please provide the chapter and verse before we put this back again. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further material removed