Talk:LMLK seal

message: ===Spacing===
Just a suggestion, but the drawings take up a lot of space on the page and push the content below the fold. Might look better if just 2-3 were displayed on this page, and a dedicated page created for the rest. --dahamsta 13:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I've flipped the sections on "drawings" and "theories", looks a bit better now.  --  user:zanimum
===Missing===
This article is missing:
* what LMLK stands for
* how do we know that they were used "during the reign of King Hezekiah (circa 700 BC)" if "none of the original seals have been found".
— Timwi 15:52, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Lamed Mem Lamed Kaf, and means "belonging to the king", though I don't know which Hebrew language, how to add the proper characters (the Hebrew alphabet page is cryptic), or even if it just refers to the letters. 68.81.231.127 16:24, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Transliterated, it is L'Melech, which (as said above) means to the King.  The letter L is a preposition meaning to, as in towards, belonging to, etc.  Melech is the word for king.  I'm pretty sure the yod (') is between the L & Melech, but it is often omitted, since it functions more as a vowel. wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  - Talk 04:06, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

text: Sorry about that; we were tagging articles in all relevant categories, which includes :Category:Seals since in the US seals are used instead of coats of arms. Unfortunately there are a small number of articles on other types of seals (like this one) which got incorrectly tagged. Dr pda 02:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Content Suggestions

message: This article is missing:
* what LMLK stands for
* how do we know that they were used "during the reign of King Hezekiah (circa 700 BC)" if "none of the original seals have been found".
— Timwi 15:52, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Lamed Mem Lamed Kaf, and means "belonging to the king", though I don't know which Hebrew language, how to add the proper characters (the Hebrew alphabet page is cryptic), or even if it just refers to the letters. 68.81.231.127 16:24, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Transliterated, it is L'Melech, which (as said above) means to the King.  The letter L is a preposition meaning to, as in towards, belonging to, etc.  Melech is the word for king.  I'm pretty sure the yod (') is between the L & Melech, but it is often omitted, since it functions more as a vowel. wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  - Talk 04:06, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing

message: LMLK seals have absolutely nothing to do with heraldry & vexillology.  Please stop adding banners to include this page in that Wikiproject.--Funhistory 16:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry about that; we were tagging articles in all relevant categories, which includes :Category:Seals since in the US seals are used instead of coats of arms. Unfortunately there are a small number of articles on other types of seals (like this one) which got incorrectly tagged. Dr pda 02:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: WikiProject Heraldry and Vexillology

message: In June 2007 someone at 67.127.185.79 posted content promoting the theory that the "MLK" of "LMLK" is Moloch, which was already listed near the bottom of the theories page.  I believe additional content regarding this minority theory should be restricted to the Moloch page, & not be added to this page, which as User:Wrp103 stated, is about the seals, & not about interpretations of the Bible.--Funhistory 14:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Moloch

message: ===the Wings, the "Beetle"..?===
Because of this Stamp seal, "type" I worked on "Stamp seal", and Cylinder seal.  So thanks, Funhistory.  I have not read every word of the LMLK seal page.
Here are some thoughts.  I worked on Egy.Hiero. then the Amarna letters, then the Epic of Gilgamesh, with Akkadian.  I know that 'mlk', and the variants are for  Akkadian: malāku,  with the long a.   and that this is the word for "consultation".  The gods are always convening and doing their "consultations",  or any important Group ( Of People)   Abi-Milku in the Amarna letters from Megiddo. his name is  "Father=King", (milku, "advice, counsel"   and also king for Canaanite ? )   Anyway...(All the family of  m-l-k words....)
To get at the symbols of the beetle... Is it the Scarab,  just referring to "Transforming",  working to Improve ?  And are the wings  the " Faravahar ", or Ahura Mazda,  still just referring to "transforming", and bettering oneself ?  Are all these pottery items, just "owned" or authorized by the KING, and there is no implications with the symbols,  or is it " Just the Symbol of the King," or one of his "Trustees", "Superintendent of Pots production" ?  Are there obvious answers to this ?
Okay, I reread most of the LMLK page.  I assume these are just Tithe portions to the "Govt", whatever the government was.   I am assuming the "Govt" was the "Religios" one the "Religious/King" govt.  End of my thoughts.  I'll look at the MMST page again. Michael McAnnis,YumaAZ(USA)
(I know that Scarab rings were a common in the Early Canaanites, in the Lachish book by Bliss, 1898, the Scarab rings were pictured. (Numerous fold-outs in this 1898 book, a lot of artefacts.) ( The Scarab rings were also in varieties, locally produced, or at least Canaanite-produced (I assume) with their specific variations.)
But I am thinking the Egyptian influence, was not in the jewelry, but in the ideas that the Canaanites had in their own minds..... Thus the "wings", and "modified Scarab".  ( Am I correct that this 700 BC timeframe is just as the Hebrews were "solidifying" their oral, and written history?  Do these symbols somehow fit into the War History happening physically, played against their Religious Aspiration history ?  Isnt this when the Old T. Bible was being created ?  Mmcannis
===Isis (Maat) and the outstretched Wings===
Maybe this is closer to the meaning of the wings, instead of Ahura Mazda.  Maat stands for "order, justice, truth" probably aspirations of the 'leaders', 'kings', 'princes',  of Jerusalem area.  M McAnnis
:I don't have any answers to your questions, Mmcannis, but they are good ones, & good comments.  It's a mysterious subject that's open to speculation.--[User:Funhistory|Funhistory]] 20:04, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not aware of any published speculation that only the sealed jars contained oil.  If you have a reference, I'd be glad to consider it.  Bear in mind that only about 10-20% of the jars were sealed.  The site of Miqne/Eqron was a big oil producer, & Jib/Gibeon was a big wine producer.  I've never heard anyone attribute the production of oil to Hezekiah specifically.--Funhistory (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're one of those keen souls who read my User page, you'll see that I labour under a possibly unique disadvantage when it comes to consulting sources: I live in Phnom Penh, and PP ain't the world's hottest centre of biblical studies. (If I wanted to devote myself to Buddhist studies it would be quite a =different proposition, but it seems I like to make my life as difficult as possible). Anyway, I'm relying on memory for this. My memory tells me that I read it in Finklestein's Bible Unearthed. If you want to follow up, you'd have to read the chapter abt Hezekiah and find what primary sources F. was working from - assuming my memory is correct. PiCo (talk) 14:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there's a few sentences about the "unprecedented expansion of olive oil in the Iron Age" on p. 207, but the king they link it to is Jeroboam II around Samaria.  There's nothing specific about oil in Finkelstein/Silberman's LMLK discussion on pp. 257-9.  By the way, I can't resist taking this opportunity to note their statement on p. 259 about 2Chronicles being "hardly historical" with respect to the geographic extent of Hezekiah's kingdom, as they were unaware of the northern LMLK sites.--Funhistory (talk) 16:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

text: As for the vocalization, "kh" is a common transliteration/spelling, as is "ch", but nobody knows for certain how the ancients pronounced it.  Personally, I prefer to simply write it as "LMLK" without any vocalization to avoid the issue (it's a non-issue).  Visit this page for an exhaustive list of all the spellings that have appeared in scholarly publications.--Funhistory (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Questions

message: Maybe this is closer to the meaning of the wings, instead of Ahura Mazda.  Maat stands for "order, justice, truth" probably aspirations of the 'leaders', 'kings', 'princes',  of Jerusalem area.  M McAnnis
:I don't have any answers to your questions, Mmcannis, but they are good ones, & good comments.  It's a mysterious subject that's open to speculation.--[User:Funhistory|Funhistory]] 20:04, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Isis (Maat) and the outstretched Wings

message: Re yr Theories section: I thought there was a 4th theory, which was that Hezekiah was big in the olive oil industry, and these were the jars in which the oil was collected? (Although in that case, why no jars/seals outside his territories?)
: I'm not aware of any published speculation that only the sealed jars contained oil.  If you have a reference, I'd be glad to consider it.  Bear in mind that only about 10-20% of the jars were sealed.  The site of Miqne/Eqron was a big oil producer, & Jib/Gibeon was a big wine producer.  I've never heard anyone attribute the production of oil to Hezekiah specifically.--Funhistory (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're one of those keen souls who read my User page, you'll see that I labour under a possibly unique disadvantage when it comes to consulting sources: I live in Phnom Penh, and PP ain't the world's hottest centre of biblical studies. (If I wanted to devote myself to Buddhist studies it would be quite a =different proposition, but it seems I like to make my life as difficult as possible). Anyway, I'm relying on memory for this. My memory tells me that I read it in Finklestein's Bible Unearthed. If you want to follow up, you'd have to read the chapter abt Hezekiah and find what primary sources F. was working from - assuming my memory is correct. PiCo (talk) 14:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, there's a few sentences about the "unprecedented expansion of olive oil in the Iron Age" on p. 207, but the king they link it to is Jeroboam II around Samaria.  There's nothing specific about oil in Finkelstein/Silberman's LMLK discussion on pp. 257-9.  By the way, I can't resist taking this opportunity to note their statement on p. 259 about 2Chronicles being "hardly historical" with respect to the geographic extent of Hezekiah's kingdom, as they were unaware of the northern LMLK sites.--Funhistory (talk) 16:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: A 4th theory

message: I see that you have the vocalisation of kaf (same in Arabic) as a /kh/ - is this right? Arabic kaf is /k/. (Root in Arabic is /mlk/ - giving malik, king (one who possesses), mumluk, slave (the one possessed, esp. by a malik), etc.) PiCo (talk) 07:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As for the vocalization, "kh" is a common transliteration/spelling, as is "ch", but nobody knows for certain how the ancients pronounced it.  Personally, I prefer to simply write it as "LMLK" without any vocalization to avoid the issue (it's a non-issue).  Visit this page for an exhaustive list of all the spellings that have appeared in scholarly publications.--Funhistory (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vocalizations

message: This is a good article.  It would be nice to see what it takes to get it up to Featured Article status. 
*I fixed a few notes in the Theories section, by adding footnotes, to make it easier to read.  
*I have also created redirects for the variants "lmlk", "lamelekh", etc. (which you come across often in publications).
*Finally, I've added the DYK info to the top of this talk page (even though it is a year old).
 Em-jay-es 16:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Minor Editing

message: This 2012 article (free) and those it cites could be used to bring the debate up to date. Zerotalk 01:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  A bit dated 

message: I have been trying to learn latin so I have a little knowlege, but especially for a reader unfamiliar with these phrases, we may want to change some of the sentences with latin phrases to better accomodate readers.
Thanks,
Nemoanon (talk) 01:24, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin Phrases 

message: See WP:RSN#LMLK Research website as a source for biblical archaeology - run by a Creationist with a B.Sc.. Doug Weller talk 14:56, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: A user above states they are Grena, . cygnis insignis 19:57, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  LMLK Research website as a source for biblical archaeology - run by a Creationist with a B.Sc. 

message: Per the previous discussion regarding the removal of Grena references by Weller, I am not going to change the misleading/misrepresentative revisions performed last week (2020-10-31) by PeakAsian, which added Khirbet Qeiyafa to the top of the Sites and quantities section with a total of 692, & changed the previous total from 1,716 to 2,408 citing a popular-level 2018 book by Garfinkel, Ganor, Hasel ("In the Footsteps of King David").  This quantity represents the primitive depression-mark handles published by Hoo-Goo Kang and Yosef Garfinkel in Levant vol. 47 no. 2 (2015), "Finger-impressed jar handles at Khirbet Qeiyafa: new light on administration in the Kingdom of Judah", p. 188 (actual total of 693 reported).  It's unfortunate that this editor would make such a prominent change without knowing the difference between these typologically, stylistically, chronologically distinct artifacts.  I'm simply noting the problem here in case anyone cares about the integrity of this Wikipedia entry.--Funhistory (talk) 02:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erroneous Addition of Qeiyafa Data by PeakAsian