Talk:Alto

message: Is Abigail Adams certainly an alto role? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.27.42 (talk) 02:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Abigail Adams 

message: "In English church usage, the term alto is sometimes exclusively used to mean a boy with this range, while contralto is used for a female singer. "
I can confidently assert that in the English choral tradition this is simply not true. Traditionally, altos are male - men, not boys. In boys' choirs, trebles with a lower range might sing the lower part in music written, say, for soprano 1 soprano 2 and alto, but in church music this is certainly not the norm. I will change it unless there are any objections. Stefan 23:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "boy altos"

message: Jane Froman was an contralto classical singer from the 1950's and mid 1960's. She did some jazz songs as well. I don't know why her name is being deleted from the form.
Ineversigninsodonotmessageme (talk) 19:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The biography at Jane Froman doesn't mention any classical music work and she isn't listed in Grove or Oxford. The other names here are major singers. Lots of lesser but perfectly genuine classical contraltos are not given. Do you have a personal interest in Froman? -- Kleinzach (talk) 23:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jane Froman 

message: This article is part of a section dedicated to opera voice classification. The term "alto" is not really part of this classification system. Alto is a term used specifically in choral singing and is referring more to polyphonic structure and range as opposed to the voice's vocal timbre and coloratura facility, which is the basis of opera categorizarion. I think blending the two terms is confusing and is causing a great deal of conflict on this page. The fact is that most people don't realize that "alto" is not really a voice type at all in classical music. It is incorrect to say, "I am an alto". It would be correct to say "I am a singer who sings the alto line in choral music". Most women who sing the alto line in choir are actually mezzzo-sopranos, for real contraltos are not that common. I think it is possible to say in modern music that alto is a "voice type". The system used in opera really doesn't apply well to singers outside of the bel canto vocal tradition. Singers in other genres could easily be defined as simply: soprano, alto, tenor, and bass with a very simple range destinction.Nrswanson (talk) 05:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I basically agree. This article is entitled 'alto' and yet almost all the references are to 'contralto'. It would be better for this page to be renamed 'Contralto' and to have a separate article covering 'alto' as a musical term. -- Kleinzach (talk) 05:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Should we split this page?

message: I notice you have also removed references to "male alto" from the Voice type article. Do you  propose to include  references to this term elsewhere? It is still commonly used in Britain and also more widely in some musicological contexts, so perhaps should not be ignored, whatever it might be "correct to say".voxclamans (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There's a reference in the 4th paragraph - but why not go ahead and amend it if you don't think it's adequate?  Best, -- Kleinzach (talk) 00:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Male alto'

message: Why has Eula Beal been deleted from the classical list as well?
It looks like you guys are busy with the forms, lol.  
Ineversigninsodonotmessageme (talk) 19:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: See Eula Beal. There's nothing to indicate she is notable in this context. She's not listed by Oxford either. If you think she's notable, then by all means develop her article. Also please read the biographies of Schumann-Heink, Ferrier etc. You will see they are really major figures.  -- Kleinzach (talk) 05:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I added more to her biography but honestly she had a very short career and only made one recording and one movie of any note. She's noteworthy enough to have her own page, but I don't think well known enough to be listed under famous contraltos. I had never heard of her and had to dig around for a while to find anything on her beyond the fact that she was in that movie and married to a famous photographer.Nrswanson (talk) 02:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eula Beal 

message: I don't agree with the claim that "alto" and "contralto" aren't synonymous.
In the history of vocal definition the voice above the tenor was "countertenor altus" which meant a voice, higher than the tenor, which held the counterpart.
This term was shortened through the years to contralto, and contralto was shortened again to alto.
In the 20th century the term "countertenor" was invented for the same reason.
Female singers who describe themselves as contraltos wouldn't be offended if someone had cold them alto or vice versa.
From the beginning of vocal training women are sorted into soprano, mezzo and alto categories, without any concern whether they will end up singing in a choir or as soloists.
Moreover, the fact that mezzos may sing alto in the choir is not a proof that alto and contralto aren't the same thing.
Baritones may sing the basso part in the choir, so aren't "basso" and "basso" the same thing?!
There can be an article which deals with the disambiguation of the term concerning the fact that it may refer to viola (as in French) etc. AdamChapman (talk) 17:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you for your comments. Perhaps one might say that all contraltos are altos, but not all altos are contraltos, because some of them are mezzos, and some countertenors. Maybe something to this effect  could be added to the article as it stands. One or two points I would venture: I'm not sure about the "pedigree" of countertenor altus ->contralto ->alto (my ancient OED has the first appearance of "contralto" in 1730, defined as "a counter treble in musick" - how confusing is that?!), though my 1970 edition of the Harvard Dictionary of Music agrees with you and also equates alto and contralto as to voice; the term "countertenor" is surely not a twentieth-century invention (both of these points are discussed in the article on countertenor). I believe it was user:Nrswanson who introduced the idea of differentiating alto and contralto into the Wiki articles, so perhaps he would like to comment further.--voxclamans (talk) 18:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually the article is quite correct about making a destinction between the two terms. If you read the book Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy you will realise that the term contralto does not have the same meaning or conotation as alto, although the terms have similar edimologies. Unlike alto, the term "contralto" refers to a particular voice type used in solo classical music with destinctive vocal qualities that are not contained in the term alto. Furthermore, the alto voice and the contralto voice have two destinctive ranges that are overlapping but not the same. The typical alto voice can sing higher but not as low as the contralto voice. As the article mentions, some contraltos have bigger ranges but what is not clearly stated is that many do not (even classically trained ones), with the voice stopping at E5. A choral alto should be able to sing up to an F5 or G5. Furthermore, all contraltos have very low notes that allow them to sing first tenor, and many of them do. Furthmore, the term alto is never used within the opera world, as it is viewed as a choral music term deliniating a particular vocal line and not describing the attributes of an individuals voice. Issues like timbre, vocal dexterity, etc. are not addressed within the term alto, all necessary destinctions within voice type categories in classical music. Furthermore, musical terms became more clearly defined within the Baroque period and Classical period with the development of modern notation and music theory. The term alto came to be associated within hymnody where there is only two destinctions in the upper register (I can't say female voices because both men and women sing the two inner voices). The term contralto, on the other hand, was used within the German fach system used for opera and this term came to be associated entirely with women in solo classical singing and is never used to describe a male voice. The opera cattegorization also makes seven broad categorical voice types and not four like choral music. These are: for women- soprano, mezzo soprano, and contralto. For men- countertenor, tenor, baritone, and bass. As you can see, there are many different destinctions here that choral music doesn't make, including gender destinctions. There can be both male and female altos. The same is not true for contraltos as such roles on the operatic stage are played only by women in the history of opera. Different roles were written with castrato and countertenors in mind. The term "alto" in terms of range would cover the mezzo soprano and countertenor most closely. Contralto lies somewhere between the alto and tenor range in choral music.Nrswanson (talk) 04:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know who uploaded this article, but yet it's a very good one http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/misc/voices.html (It supports my comment). It's quite silly to start differentiating between alto, contralto, etc. Perhaps there are books that do so, but this is not scientifically very accurate. First, there are some that consider contralto as a higher voice than alto (like Podles. She claims that an alto will stop on a high f, yet a contralto, like her, will be able to go up to the high b or even c). In John Stanley's book "Classical Music" it says that "alto" is an abbreviation of "contralto". Moreover, the distant between female voices is so small that it's really unnecessary to create such a complicated terminology. For example: The lowest role in Wagner’s "Ring" is Erda, who reaches down to g and up to a-flat. The highest, Brunhilda, goes down to a (only a tone above g) and up to c (only a couple of tones above c). As it says in many other related articles, in today’s operatic practice there is no distinction between mezzos and contraltos so why should there be between contraltos and altos? AdamChapman (talk) 15:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I already explained my opinion and you haven't convinced me to change my opinion. I still think what I said before and my resources back me up.Nrswanson (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Why the hell two different articles?

message: I've noticed that in some of the articles linking to this one, the word "alto" is used to describe the voice in question rather than a person. For example, "Tina possesses a dark, warm alto" or "Ms. Jones is notable for her bluesy, raspy alto" - is it just me, or does this sound awkward? Wouldn't "alto voice" be a more suitable alternative? I am unfamiliar with such usage in that context. Ministry of Silly Walks (talk) 23:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it would be more correct to say "alto voice" than just simply alto.Ringnpassagio (talk) 23:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acceptable usage of the term "alto" 

message: Is there a reason why there isn't a "voice range on keyboard" picture in this article? Almost all the other voice type articles have a picture, but not this one. I feel there should be an image so that people can have a better picture of where the typical alto voice starts and where it finishes. And also so people can have a better picture of how alto voices differ from contralto and mezzo-soprano voices. I understand that the term "alto" generally refers to choral music. But I've come across at least one site that says that the typical alto voice lies between G3 and G5. Though I could be wrong. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 04:30, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: No "voice range on keyboard" picture?