Talk:Hurricane Catarina

message: Can the wording used be consistent?  It is called a cyclone and a hurricane in the intro.  It should be called either one or the other.  And I'm currently leaning away from "hurricane" Hopquick 06:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hurricane 

message: AFAICT this is an "unnamed" cyclone and, according to our naming practices, should be called either 2004 Catarina Cyclone or Catarina Cyclone of 2004. Jdorje 03:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The name "Catarina" was assigned by the Brazillian Weather Office. That sounds pretty official to me. They may not be registered with the WMO or willing to admit that a hurricane kicked their ass but most of them are college educated meteorologists. That's official enough for Wikipedia. The WMO mentions it here: on the ninth page, fourth paragraph. The only reason they don't recognize the name as "official" is that the Brazilian Meteorological Department is not a WMO-registered RSMC like NHC is. All RSMCs have registered naming naming lists cleared by the WMO. Tropical cyclones are about as rare in Brazil as snow in the Sahara, therefore, it was never worth the hassle of registering to be an RSMC. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 04:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The Brazilians originated it and the name has come to common use by researchers around the world. When discussing the storm, most meterologists and agencies use the name Catarina; in the US, UK, and elsewhere. A lot of information is available in the external links I added to the page, including that the Brazilian government now recognizes Catarina was a hurricane/cyclone. Evolauxia 21:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

text:  The suggested name for Brazil's first recorded cyclone is "Aldonca" 
to mean a chronological first, the same alphabetical name system applied in North Atlantic and East Pacific hurricanes. I believe Brazil must be hit by tropical cyclones in the distant past, unless this is for sure the first time for Brazil or we're in serious trouble if this proven global climate change is upon us. Back in the late 1970s, below average winter "cold spells" struck the North American continent and covered pretty much the Eastern half of the U.S. It brought the first (and only) measured snowfall in Miami, Florida on Jan. 25, 1977 and the 45 straight days of heavy snow in Buffalo, N.Y. in Jan.-Feb. 1977 never occurred again.  Was this a sign of a new "ice age"? Nope... we won't be complaining now on global warming or the controversy of a new "hot age" to come. I guess Brazil has (finally) a hurricane problem to get used to or there's no recorded history of such in Brazil before 1880. --Mike D 26 02:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

text: How about ? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 09:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naming 

message: In the past this article said the top wind speed was 85 mph.  A moment ago it said 95 mph.  I changed this to 100 mph based on this data, which gives the top speed as 85 knots.  It's worth noting that the way rounding is done, 80 knots is 90 mph and 85 knots is 100 mph, so since all organizations use knots in multiples of 5, I believe no tropical cyclone has ever officially had winds of 95 mph. Jdorje 19:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure about the wind speed. There is no official center down there, nobody knows the official wind speed. 100 sounds like a good bet, based on the source. Hurricanehink 22:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  Over a decade later, I think this should be discussed in the article. The NHC only gives a best-track maximum wind speed of 75 knots, for example. With there being no RSMC, though, this probably is going to be debatable for a long time.--Jasper Deng (talk) 10:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I thought it had been settled by the WMO investigation.Jason Rees (talk) 17:58, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wind speed? 

message: See http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagem:Furac%C3%A3onoBrasil.jpg . -- Jdorje 05:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here are some images from the Navy site. -- RattleMan 06:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  What I see on the satellite pictures, you see a bonafide tropical cyclone resembled a hurricane or typhoon that a normal low pressure storm. There's an "eye" surrounded by clockwise rotated clouds and when cyclone Catarina had landed in Brazil, the winds were over 75 m.p.h. with coastal storm surge. Why is the Brazilian meteorologists confused about this after they admit it was a tropical cyclone? I wonder myself if the West coast U.S. had hurricanes or extratropical storms in the past? I've heard of the 1858 San Diego hurricane and the history of tropical storm landings had "gusts above hurricane force" struck Southern Cal. Usually, when the tropical storms originated from Baja or East Pacific enter the Southwest U.S. (Arizona and inland Cal.), they make rainfall exceeding the state's annual averages and destructive flooding in a short time. Tropical depressions had entered Northern Cal. in the past and on those very wet El Nino years, the west coast has extratropical cyclonic lows without the characteristics of any to speak of. (No eye observed, but counterclockwise rotation). The risk factor for Brazil and California for tropical cyclones are 1 out of 150 year events, perhaps these countries or regions were around less than 400 years, unlike the older meteorological histories of Europe that spoke of several hurricane-like storms approached the British Isles, France, Scandinavia and Iberia like 1 out of 10-15 years. The Gulf Stream current is very warm water and flows into Northwest Europe, thus gave off a mild and rainy climate in subarctic latitudes (50-55N parallel) except in mid-winter. To my analysis, the Brazilians should be lucky it's not a regular occurence or may not be the first time, perhaps to happen once in the nation's 400 year history. --Mike D 26 03:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: I was browsing WMO docs and ran across this list of reports.  At random I opened up the report for RA IV Hurricane Committe.  It seems Brazil sent a representative to this WMO hurricane committee meeting in Miami in 2004, and she gave a presentation on the cyclone.  Not much information there, but it does indicate the Brazilian government isn't denying the "incident".  Looking at the 2005 report, there is no brazilian member present this time but the list of tropical cyclone meteorological offices does include a brazilian weather center. — jdorje (talk) 06:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that. Quite a bit is there in the Brazilian conference page as well. My guess is that if Brazil or someone else doesn't pick up the slack, some existing tropical agency will cover the South Atlantic, or perhaps some sort of inter-agency/international collaboration. Evolauxia 07:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Brazil & WMO 

message: Chin, Gilbert. The First of Many?. Science; 8/26/2005, Vol. 309 Issue 5739, p1302-1302, 1/5p, 1c
*CLIMATE SCIENCE: The First of Many?
:The first hurricane ever documented in the South Atlantic, Catarina, struck the southern coast of Brazil on 28 March 2004. This unprecedented event led some Brazilian meteorologists to deny that it was a hurricane at all; further analysis, however, has shown that it was.
: In a detailed study of the storm, Pezza and Simmonds describe its evolution from genesis on 20 March 2004 as an extra-tropical cyclone, through its strengthening to a category I hurricane before it drifted over land. This hurricane developed because of an unusual combination of high sea surface temperatures, low vertical wind shear, and strong mid-to-high latitude blocking (which interferes with normal east-west atmospheric flow). These conditions are functions of large-scale atmospheric circulation patterns in the region and could be related to climate change. If so, more hurricanes may occur in the South Atlantic in the future. -- HJS
: Geophys. Res. Lett. 10.1029/2005GL023390 (2005).
Halverson, Jeff. A South Atlantic Rogue. Weatherwise; Jul/Aug2004, Vol. 57 Issue 4, p62-63, 2p, 1 map, 1bw
Hecht, Jeff. The strange tale of the hurricane that wasn't. New Scientist; 4/24/2004, Vol. 182 Issue 2444, p16-16, 1/6p
Pearce, Fred. New Scientist; 9/24/2005, Vol. 187 Issue 2518, p10-10, 1/2p, 1c
Wilkinson, Bert. Caribbean experts sound warning about climate change. New York Amsterdam News; 4/8/2004, Vol. 95 Issue 15, p14-35, 2p
Evolauxia 09:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other sources 

message: What should the importance be on this one? It wasn't particularly damaging, and deaths weren't too high. However, given Catarina's unusual circumstances, I think it is mid. Agreed? I know I could have just done this myself, but this was a storm I thought should give some though. It was fairly important, at least. Hurricanehink (talk) 02:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think mid would work here. If it had been more damaging, it'd be high. --Coredesat 03:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK. Hurricanehink (talk) 11:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Importance 

message: The South Atlantic isn't a typical breeding ground for tropical cyclones, or up to most meteorologists' knowledge. I'm sure the arguments on whether to call it a tropical or subtropical storm system, or either caused by climatic shift from global warming or not. Before 1960, there was no professional meteorologist survey of the South Atlantic, partly to the once believed myth of "No tropical cyclones ever formed there". There are strong anticyclonic storms coming out of the Antarctic (45 or 50S parallel) in open swaths of the South Atlantic, but for a hurricane-like entity to strike Eastern coast of South America is indeed rare. But, how unusual was it or was there cyclones in the South Atlantic before recorded weather history in the 1880s? Brazilian meteorologists didn't always had the best weather technology until recently, and any serious tropical cyclone development would ever get recorded in the pages or blogs in the Brazilian weather offices. So far, the South Atlantic is mainly not a place to find tropical cyclones, except some disturbances and patterns are known to happen in the Southern hemisphere summer. Just like the occassional tropical storm made landfall in California and the extratropical systems had strike Northwest Europe, there is natural explanations for why these cyclones reach them in certain circumstances. The surprising Tropical Storm Vince in 2005 was over the Iberian peninsula, while I recall dissipated or mid-latitude Pacific "Hurricanes" was seen away from the U.S. Northwest coast has reasonable theories why this was possible. I've heard a few strong or longer-lasting typhoons reached northward to Siberia, Russia in close distance to Japan. The overall improvement in studies of oceanic currents, sea temperatures and variable wind shears may give out an answer for rare South Atlantic cyclones (or this counted as one). I would like to know, maybe there's more to explore in meteorology. --Mike D 26 02:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While they certainly don't focus on the South Atlantic, the US's JTWC (Joint Typhoon Warning Center) does monitor tropical activity in the South Atlantic and has done so (with admittedly little enthusiasm) for decades. They might miss short-lived tropical storms because they aren't paying close attention, but no full-blown hurricane would have been missed in at least the last twenty years or so. —Cuiviénen 00:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: How unusual was it?

message: By whom? I'm not at all knowledgeable about this subject, but I can spot an unreferenced assertion! Loganberry (Talk) 01:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Here, for example. Hurricanehink (talk) 02:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I wasn't doubting it. I just think a reference should be given in the article, that's all. I'm not making the edit myself because I don't know the subject well - for example, the page you give refers to the "TCDG", and though I can guess what that stands for I don't know its importance, reputation etc. I just think that saying "it has also been called Aldonça" without a reference in the article is rather unsatisfactory, that's all. Loganberry (Talk) 15:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would a link to that suffice as a reference stating it was called Aldonca? Hurricanehink (talk) 16:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Aldonca should not be its main name...but at this point, there is no harm in the reference if you're going to include that name.  I'm familiar with who coined that name, and it was originally not supposed to make it to the outside world as its name, just within the main tropical cyclone discussion group.  Once the press called it Catarina, it became Catarina.  When a storm lacks a name, and no RSMC has named it, the name the press coins usually becomes its name.  Essentially, similar to the Atlantic naming convention prior to 1950.  Thegreatdr 19:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know what an RSMC is, so can't comment on that bit, but from what you say ("originally not supposed to make it to the outside world") that the group in question was not a public one, but that it was quoted in another, public, arena. I do think it's worth mentioning the name Aldonça, but if it is going to be referred to then the article has to say where the name originally came from. So in answer to Hurricanehink's question, I think I'd say that yes it would suffice. Loganberry (Talk) 19:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An RSMC is just a Regionally Specialized Meteorological Center, which means they are the authority in that area for that purpose.  In this case, an RSMC for tropical cyclones.  Six are defined across the world; NHC, JMA, IMD in India,  Nadi in Fiji, and La Reunion...the sixth escapes me right now...it may be CPHC in the central north Pacific. Thegreatdr 20:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  It has also been called "Aldonça" 

message: There's a spot of vandalism under "Rare formation" that mentions "homo sex," but I can't seem to find the edit in the history.  Can someone lend me a hand? - Cubs Fan (talk) 04:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism

message: Hi. I have changed this information to show that SSTs were below average (second data ref for March 24), as the "above average" temperatures may have been an assumption. ~AH1(TCU) 03:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sea surface temperatures were slightly below average during formation 

message: "$350 million (2004 USD)"? The Portuguese Wiki-Page speaks about "250 milhões R$" (250 million R$), that would be about 120 million USD 2004 and today about 140 USD. Or I am completly wrong? --WikiMax (talk) 15:47, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, for what its worth, the Monthly Weather Review cites a figure of $425 million (2005 USD). So that it needs fixing anyways. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 05:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Damage  

message: These can come in handy later:
* http://severe.worldweather.org/iwtc/document/Topic_2a_Pedro_Silva_Dias.pdf
* http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/BAMS-86-6-Levinson
Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 02:54, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  More refs 

message: Cyclone Catarina has been adopted by Wikipedia for many years, because of its location (Southern Hemisphere) and being considered as typical. However, in Brazil, Furacão Catarina (Hurricane Catarina) is much popular than Ciclone Catarina (Cyclone Catarina). Hurricane Catarina is also more popular in English even if the decision of Wikipedia affects its popularity a lot.
Although the term cyclone is described as typical in the Catarina article, it only refers to the summary written by Gary Padgett, which cannot represent most of reports and meteorologists at all. The document by the Brazilian Navy in 2011 indicates not only the name list but the scale. The scale is completely the same to the one that North Atlantic Ocean uses:
*Depressão Tropical - média (intervalo de um minuto) do vento máximo à superfície é igual ou inferior a 62 km/h, 38 mph, 33 nós ou Força 6 a 7 na Escala Beaufort.
*Tempestade Tropical - média (intervalo de um minuto) do vento máximo à superfície na faixa de 63 a 117 km/h, 39 a 73mph, 34 a 63 nós ou Força 8 a 11 na Escala Beaufort.
*Furacão - média (intervalo de um minuto) do vento máximo à superfície é igual ou superior a 118 km/h, 74 mph, 64 nós ou superior a Força 12 na Escala Beaufort.
As the document is currently the de facto standard of the tropical cyclone scale and naming of the South Atlantic Ocean west of 20°W, also with the popularity, my suggestion is to use hurricane completely to all hurricane-force tropical cyclones in the South Atlantic Ocean, including Catarina and future systems, until the World Meteorological Organisation appoints an agency to monitor that basin and changes the scale. -- Meow 05:37, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Very clear cut situation here to me. Went ahead and moved the article to Hurricane Catarina accordingly. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:12, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hurricane or Cyclone 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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