Talk:Dutch people/Archive 3

message: I think Rex was right to move lots of stuff to an archive, the talk became too long indeed.
However, Rex thought it would be a good idea to give an overview from recent debates, and thus he copied parts of the discussion into the new pages. 
While in itself this may seem defendable and even laudable, the chance is that other editors disagree with the choice of the copied parts (which is necessarily coloured by personal bias). This is exactly what happened here. Paul111 missed out on some of his arguments and repeated many of those above. The effort of archiving the talk page has been nullified by this to a large extent. 
As I see it now there are three main issues unresolved (note that I do not give a value judgement but merely try to summarise the main sources of disagreement):
'''
* Quality and sufficiency of sourcing is contested
* How to refer to Dutch prior to 1830??? Were they Dutch, would these older Dutch include other peoples (e.g. the Flemings) as well, is debated.
* How to take care that some ideas about ethnicity that find great approval from extreme right wing nationalists are treated in a neutral way (e.g. use of word Germanic, Germanic descent, greater Netherlands, inclusion of Flemings in parts about history).
With these issues listed by me and my own editorial bias, I invite other involved editors who think one of their main topics (and please bundle several related topics under a single label) has not been mentioned to list them below.
If we agree which topics are open for debate, I think we can work from there in a more constructive way to solve those, rather then repeating stuff from the archives.
If you agree this maybe a good idea, I will create a second archive specially for the part immediately above and will put in every discussion above this topic; wihtout any further editorial choices. Arnoutf 08:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Archiving Issues - Second try 

message: Discussions which are continuing should not be archived, certainly not if items are only one day old. Issues can not be removed simply because they have been discussed before, that is only appropriate if the issue has been resolved and discussion has ended. At most, if the page is very full, certain issues could get a sub-page of the talk page.Paul111 19:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do not archive active discussions 

message: Information which is there to explain the presence of a tag (clean-up, merge, delete, neutrality, and so on) should not be removed from the talk page. If discussion is long, then again a sub-page is a preferable option. Archive pages can not be edited.Paul111 19:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Do not archive tag information 

message: User Rex Germanus has used the term 'Dutch' for populations as far back as the Frankish period. He claimed that Dik Linthout's book on relations between Germany and the Netherlands, Onbekende Buren says that Dutch emigrants moved to Brandenburg in 1157. He gave a page reference, 101-102. However, the book does not use the term Dutch for these emigrants (and does not mention the year 1157 either). The book is careful about such terminology, pointing out for instance that the Dutch language was not called Nederlands until the 19th century (page 96).Paul111 19:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm sorry to say that the information presented by Paul111 is flawed. I suggest you read the book (again), as the book does in fact claim that, it makes it very clear that Dutch immigrants moved to Germany. On page 96 the claim is not that Dutch wasn't called Nederlands until the 19th century, but that the term "Nederdiets" was completely replaced by it. I assume you are/were very much aware of this (the book is very, very clear) and that you hence purposely were trying to misinform the people here.Rex 19:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Exactly, now please where does it say they started to call it Nederlands in the 19th century?!Rex 19:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Rex, before that, it was "Holland" and only "Netherlands" cuaght on in 1800 to replace the previous title "Batavian Republic", a disliked vestige of the Napoleonic French era. There are sparing numbers of 'Dutch' emigrants in the 11th to 15th centuries, when tens thousands of farmers, fishers and tailors moved from present-day Belgium and the Netherlands to England, Scotland and Wales, and fewer Dutch migrants went to Austria, Denmark, France, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Spain and Switzerland. The first thing to do is check again for Dix Linthout and books written by the historian author on AOL search (or google), unless Rex already had did the work and found the claims unsupported and likely a hoax or misnomer (i.e. the "Duitsch" of Northwest Germany, but a corrupted word for "deutsch" or German in the local dialect. + 63.3.14.1 13:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No source for 'Dutch' emigrants in 1157

message: Stop removing referenced information from the article. I dont care how many times more you'll start another section for something that you don't like, but you will leave in referenced information. Wikipedians work very hard to make this article a good one, and have spend hours looking for references. They don't do this so they can be removed because of the tunnel vision and stubborness of someone who refuses to debate his own views and refuses to present counter sources. This behavior is shameless.Rex 19:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Keep calm Rex. Arnoutf 19:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Trying very hard Arnout.Rex 19:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Again does Paul111 attempt to influence others with false information. The "see Dutch diaspora section" refers to a completely referenced section in which the same claim is explained. The references saying 68% of the Belgians are Dutch-speaking are meant so people can check the figure given. The reasons/views on Flemish are discussed in the article.Rex 19:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have to agree with Rex; for instance: how can you possibly take the CIA Factbook as an accurate source of information on Dutch people? Take a Dutch survey, or at least something from Holland, to back up your statements.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.84.188.56 (talk) 22:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Paul111, I do not understand your sentence above "A source which states one thing is not reliable for another". So each source can only be used once????? Or do you mean that the source should be interpreted accurately? With that I agree. Combining sources maybe a good idea sometimes (see little above on Germanic issue). Personally I would not mind listing the Surinamers as Ethnic Dutch ;-) I think that Paul111 is right in saying that you should import the original references into this article to support a contested claim. Arnoutf 19:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Do not delete referenced information without proper arguments. It's vandalism.Rex 17:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The problem of a reliable source is not so easy to solve (as the WP article states). I think it would be civil to give arguments for the removal of any sourced addition. Arnoutf 18:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: the problem being that I do not agree with your statement "the cited sources do not say what they were claimed to say" and nothing in the sources seems to be able to convince you of something else. This means we have a dispute about the interpretation of sources, which may have 2 parts. (1) The sources are not reliable (but I think we agree they are). (2) The sources are misinterpreted. The problem with this second problems is that we are back to square one. Simply put it is two against one about the interpretation of the sources, so you have to provide stronger evidence that the sources are indeed misinterpreted (or a convincing majority of support from other editors). Finally, while accuracy is, political connotations are not a reason for deletion (wiki is not and should not be censored for reasons of political correctness). Arnoutf 20:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vandalism by Paull11

message: Please do not reinsert any controversial or disputed material without providing reliable sources.Paul111 10:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not delete referenced information without proper arguments. It's vandalism.Rex 17:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The problem of a reliable source is not so easy to solve (as the WP article states). I think it would be civil to give arguments for the removal of any sourced addition. Arnoutf 18:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

text: the problem being that I do not agree with your statement "the cited sources do not say what they were claimed to say" and nothing in the sources seems to be able to convince you of something else. This means we have a dispute about the interpretation of sources, which may have 2 parts. (1) The sources are not reliable (but I think we agree they are). (2) The sources are misinterpreted. The problem with this second problems is that we are back to square one. Simply put it is two against one about the interpretation of the sources, so you have to provide stronger evidence that the sources are indeed misinterpreted (or a convincing majority of support from other editors). Finally, while accuracy is, political connotations are not a reason for deletion (wiki is not and should not be censored for reasons of political correctness). Arnoutf 20:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletions

message: The caption does not make it clear whether this means the Dutch language or a Dutch ethnic group. Either way it is inaccurate since 'Old West Low Franconian' would be accurate for a language at that time, and there was no Dutch ethnic group in the 8th century. (There was no 'France' either). It is not in dispute that Dutch was historically spoken in present-day northern France, but that should be presented accurately and in context.Paul111 19:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No Paul111, Old Dutch is the correct and academically used term, even for the language spoken 200 years before this period. The reason France and Belgium are used is (BIG SHOCK!) its projected on a modern map.Rex 19:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Old Dutch is Dutch nontheless. Rex 17:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  It wouldn't hurt to label it 'old dutch'. (Personally I think the map adds nothing though) Arnoutf 18:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Rex, I admit my father is French (he lived in the U.S. for nearly 40 years) but has a Flemish paternal grandmother (she never got the grasp of French, her relatives translate back to her) from a village (I believe it was Vercinques, 30 kms./15 miles north of St. Omer, a very French city about half a hour each from Lille and Calais, despite it's repeatedly been under Dutch-Flemish (and other, like Austrian, English/British, German and Spanish rule in its' long history) in the Nord (department)/Pas de Calais region. St. Omer happens to be in the Pas de Calais department, and the L'Aa river was briefly a national border with France in the late 1700's/early 1800's means the Netherlands was very close to St. Omer and was a minor influence in the town's culture (i.e. breweries and gin distilleries instead of wineries, and more bakeries sell Belgian/ Flemish waffles than equally popular French/Parisian croissants). The local language isn't Dutch per se, but related to Flemish in Northernmost France and officially dubbed "Flemish-Dutch", to indicate this is about the same West Flanders dialect of the language that's completely based on, but different in sound and spelling from "Nederlander" Dutch. So far, according to my father in his last trip to his home region, the Flemish language declined in use and hardly saw or heard anyone use it except for town elders among each other. The Flemish language was nearly pushed to extinction and efforts to wipe out Flemish under the French government in the 19th and early 20th centuries is now highly regrettable, a kind of cultural intolerance in the name of French ethnonational and cultural uniformity. I read there are 35,000 Flemish-Dutch speakers left in Nord/Pas de Calais, universally are a bilingual people and they indeed may attempt to speak more Flemish-Dutch at home, but the region's and departments' governments don't recognize Flemish-Dutch a "co-official" language to be used in schools, courts and national police. In the 20th century, the French Republic urged Flemings in the Nord-Pas de Calais to strictly conduct business in French and highly encouraged Flemish-speaking people to use only French with government officials. However, no longer the French republic can prohibit or replace anyone's language, now a violation of the European Commission on Human Rights agreements and linguicide is illegal in France since the 1970's.  + —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.3.14.1 (talk) 03:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map: Dutch in Northern France 

message: Please do not archive this so long as the issue is unresolved. The only source given for this figure is that some people believe that Flemish and Dutch are one people. Some people do, but they are a small minority, most of them to the right of Vlaams Belang in Flanders. That is not a sufficient source for a claimed population of 30 million ethnic Dutch.Paul111 20:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree. The idea that the Dutch and Flemish are one people is not limited (as paul111 wants us so desperately to believe) to the extreme right. "Heelneerlandisme" is not supported (or thought of) solely by the far right, to claim that is simply wrong. The fact that it is an acknowledged ideology and it has various clubs and institutions is enough for a remark to it.Rex 20:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again note that this article explicitly says the Dutch and Flemish are a single people.Rex 20:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Rex, I think you mean to say that hte article explicitly say they are NOT a single people. Also I think we should not go on the larger Netherlands ideology in this article (perhaps interesting for its own article). Finally, this seems again to go towards a confusion between nation and ethnic group; which have large similarities but are not synonyms. Arnoutf 21:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I want to address an issue on the accuracy of Paul's claim of a humongous number of people of Dutch ancestry. I went to the archive page 1 for any past issues to bring forth again to clear any mistakes and errors. Here's one post on the estimated number of people in Brazil had Dutch ancestry below.
<<4 million Dutch in Brazil? 
No source was provided for this figure, which seems absurdly high, given that there are only 5 million self-identified 'Dutch' in the USA. No source was provided for the other 500,000 Dutch in the 'rest of the world' either. Paul111 11:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 30 million Dutch

message: You shout and accuse allot., but when one takes the time to read your comments (I'd wish you'd read mine sometimes) you'll see you are sitting on air. All your claims are based on nothing or are a case of personal (thoroughly biased) opinion vs references/sources. Explain your claims:
 
*claims that Flemings and Dutch constitute a single people or ethnic group. '
**Where is this claimed?
*claims that the Low Countries are, or were, inhabited by single people, nation, or ethnic group
**Where is this claimed?
*claims that the inhabitants of the Seventeen Provinces were a single people or ethnic group
**This is sourced, where are your countersources?
*claims that a Dutch people or ethnic group ever inhabited present-day northern France or Wallonia.
**This is sourced, where are your countersources?
Ethnic terminology
* claims that the present Dutch people are one of the Germanic peoples
**This is sourced, where are your countersources?
* claims that a "Dutch people" (Nederlanders) existed prior to the mid-16th century and the Dutch Revolt
**This is sourced, where are your countersources?
*claims that ethnic groups with Dutch ancestry are thereby themselves a Dutch ethnic group
**Where is this claimed?
*claims that any Dutch-speaking ethnic group is thereby part of the Dutch ethnic group
**Where is this claimed?
*claims that Afrikaners are part of the Dutch people or ethnic group
**Where is this claimed?
*claims that Flemings are part of the Dutch people or ethnic group
**Where is this claimed?
Rex 13:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul111? Rex 15:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul111?Rex 14:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Ridiculous answer. I want to know where we claim what you claim we claim.Rex 18:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we disagree on interpretation of the sources (see the separate comments above). In an ongoing debate about interpretation of sources you may have to acknowledge you may be wrong. One of us is if we interpret sources differently. Arnoutf 19:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: More than half of what he accuses us of cannot be found in the article. How on earth are we going to make this a good article if he gets to implement his unreferenced bias because of "unreferenced material" that isn't even in the article?!Rex 11:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I can't tell which is fact or Paul's bias, except to promote an ideology Rex points out is somewhat erroneous and offensive to Rex and other people. The historic territories of the "Low countries" once consisted of tribes and communities, all thought to descended from the Low Germans  (i.e. Angles, Batavi, Danes, Franconians, Frisians, Jutes, Morini, Salinians or Saxons), usually the tribes were said to establish an alliance or confederation: the Duites derived from the word bands of fighters in Low Germanic. But, the country name Belgium in the southern edges of the "Duites" tribal range, came from another tribe the Belgae, a Celtic-speaking people came in close contact with the "Low Germans" to the north ("Nederlanders" for low lands, Belgium means "forested"), and Belgium wasn't completely taken over by the Romans in failed attempts to subjugate a heavily-wooded area. The Belgians (or Francophone Walloons) are intensely "Latinized" by the Roman empire, but the empire's border didn't get past the Rhine River (or the Northern Dutch said the "land between the rivers", the region known for a more Dutch Catholic population, or the regional "South Dutch" according to Paul was an existing sub-culture, but can't be verified for what appears false and not suitable for Wikipedia. 
The less Latin cultural outlook of the Dutch-Frisians was from a geographic anomaly: it's a difficult task for Romans to conquer foggy, rainy and windy coasts and marshlands the Netherlands stands on (I'm sure they had woodplack drawbridges), or the Roman legions failed to defeat the Dutch-Frisians as the Roman empire weakened by the 4th/5th centuries AD. The original seventeen provinces (actually in 1581, the provinces banded together in independence from Spain and their first official title was "United Provinces of Holland", later became the "Dutch republic" in 1660) had similar, yet diverse characteristics from one region to another: the low-lying "Nederlander" or "Zeelandic" west and hilly "low German" or "Rhineish" east, and with the "Frisian" north and the "French" or "Luxemburger" south, developed each unique customs, dialects and traits on their own. Paul and Rex, work together and share your sources (the AOL search and google must have thousands of web sites or links to Dutch culture and history of the "Low countries"). + 63.3.14.129 10:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: "Low Germans" as a pre migration age ethnic group?Rex 11:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: perhaps...Paul needs to go in the Low German article to compare, discuss, note and support his claims on the Dutch-Low German connection. yes...the "Low Germans" are an ancestral group, not a nation and there's no such thing as the "Republic of Low Germany". I can tell you, Rex on my own visit to Watten, a village north of St. Omer, France, is where my paternal grandmother is from (I said Vercinques...at least I wasn't lost!) and I came upon several road signs printed in French and Flemish! I believe the language is making a comeback and French transportation officials and geodetic societies allow Flemish and French village names, both official in effort to restore the vibrancy of the language spoken in Nord/Pas de Calais before the French annexed the entire area by the mid 1700's. 
Paul, would you rather spend more time in the Flemish people and Flemish language articles and talk pages? I wonder there's gonna be arguments and edit wars over Flemish and Belgian identity, and do you go there, Rex? Yes, I'm totally aware of Dutch, Flemish and Luxemburger (or Luxembourgish) aren't 100% alike in language, customs, history and traditions...and how easy it is to reckon the national term Belgians aren't an ethnicity and not entirely Germanic as it hasn't been in metropolitian France for over two centuries. 
Good to know my family history...time for me to head for the Cherokee talk pages to discuss my maternal side, since Native Americans struggle with cultural identity and preservation issues. Sorry to stray off topic a bit, because the Dutch aren't alone and their situation is not uncommon. The Cherokee and the Dutch, although are different, but were divided into two or more groups for the last three or more centuries. Just like what happened to the Dutch and Flemings, the Cherokee experienced a growing separateness (and attempts to unify a tribe) of Eastern (native to the Appalachias) and Western (the South-Central US), full-blood, part-blood and Cherokee American (not necessarily a people who have tribal membership, but an ancestral group lived apart, satirically called "generokee" by tribal members and kept their Native american/Indian culture hidden from the outside world in the 20th century) titles for new "ethnic groups" but are treated as obvious racial minority groups in the United States.+ 63.3.14.129 12:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: You're sure in the French side of West Flanders was the actual Dutch language, not Flemish (the village's inhabitants are considered Flemings)...despite the official name of the language is West Flanders Flemish-Dutch? The cross-border people phenomena is a footnote on how certain peoples able to preserve their culture after they found themselves living in another country, as kings and nobles, wars and treaties, and what else happened, redrew the political boundaries without regard to older ethnic/cultural ones. The concept of France wants to revive "Flemish" culture is actually "Dutch" or West Flanders culture, despite they used to be in the Netherlands (1660-1800 and 1815-30), or is it already French territory since 1789/1794. 
There's a strikingly similar but whole another issue where I live in Southern Cal. of what's Mexican, American or a whole other national identity in the Southwest US: Chicanos, Hispanos or Tejanos are descendants of the original "Spanish"/"Hispanic" settlers of the region when it's part of Spain (1550-1820), Mexico (1821-50) and finally under the US flag in 1848. They are in American soil, but of "Latino" origin just like peoples on the other side of the border. These newer ethnic self-titles and racial identity issues of Mexican Americans and immigrants from Mexico, reinforced and reintroduced an already-present community of Americans who carried a regional Mexican culture, but are not Mexican citizens or never had parents/ancestors recently arrived from the country. As the saying in South Texas, parts of Arizona or New Mexico, and California goes "we didn't cross a border...the border crossed us." + 63.3.14.1 13:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree, Rex...on the difficult and confusing issue on the "Dutch" as in "Nederlander" vs. "West Flemish-Belgian Dutch" identity in Northernmost France. To call a group of people a "race" isn't purely a scientific thing, but more like a socially constructed and politically-based meaning. In many cross-border regions of the world, you may find two peoples who might share a language, customs and ethnonational identity had developed somewhat unique and differential traits from one another. In the case of the so-called "Low Germanic/West Germanic" language family (not a race, but ethnic groups who may came from a common ancestor, as you mentioned Rex, the prehistoric migration of people from Northwest Germany). Whether to separate, categorize and officially dub the inhabitants of the Low Countries: "Nederlanders/ Dutch", "Flemings/Vlaams", "Frisians/Frieseans" and "Luxembourgers" is not always an exact sociological process. I don't like Paul and his attempts to promote a "Germanic" view of the Dutch and Belgian peoples (in terms of language if not by ethnicity), but I noticed he wasn't a neo-Nazi/neo-fascist (he didn't include or mention other  labels "Nordic", "Indo-Aryan" or "Indo-Germanic" to his comments, a popular method to enhance a fervent racist or political agenda used by the Nazis in order to include the Dutch, English and Scandinavians (the occupation of Norway and Denmark) in the early 1940's). + 63.3.14.2 13:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul111?Rex 14:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Matters subject to Paul111s continuos unsupported bias.

message: Hello, I tried to press [edit] in the 'References' section and see the source for an image there, but there's almost nothing inside! Is this wrong? *Steve (user:StevenAR)
PS:How can I find out if someone responds?
: See your own talk page for some general tips on editing wiki. On this page we used automated inline references. The reference is added in the text at the relevant position as follows: This is how you add an inline referecen in the text which will show up as a note[1]. The  tag compiles a list out of all intext references; which is only visible in the normal page view, in the edit view only the references tag is visible. This ensures that removed citation disappear from the list, and that all inserted references end up in the appropriate order in the reference list. Nice little tool it is :-) Arnoutf 08:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Question by [[user:StevenAR]] regarding References

message: In the terminology section is this stated:
The Kingdom of the Netherlands includes Caribbean islands with an ethnically distinct population, and they may or may not be included in the term "Nederlanders". In nationality law, the term Nederlander denotes a citizen of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and also includes persons with clearly non-Dutch ethnicity.
The people of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba, the two countries which are also a part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, are not called Dutch. Together, the three countries form a kingdom, but that does not mean that they all share the same nationality or, indeed, ethnicity. Since there is no question whether people from the Dutch Antilles and Aruba are called Dutch, there is no point in adding such a paragraph. I suggest it will be deleted. --Soetermans 21:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That us not completely true, Antilles people do have the Dutch nationality. Hence some explanation seems to be in place Arnoutf 22:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no easy answer, since this is a politically contested issue. The official attitude is that everyone with a Dutch passport is 'Dutch' but many people in the Netherlands won't accept that a black person (or a Muslim) can be 'Dutch'. This article would be much better if it tried to explain these present-day issues, instead of (for instance) the spread of Old Dutch in AD 800.Paul111 18:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we should do both; explain the origins of the Dutch and talk about the current status of the Dutch Nation, Dutch Ethnicity, and Dutch nationality. Anyway, strictly legally speakng everyone with a Dutch passport has the Dutch nationality; and it does not matter how (s)he came to that. According to CBS, allochtones are those of whom at least one parent was born outside the Netherlands (ie 3rd generation immigrants are no longer allochtone), again no reference to race or color. How this compares to ethnicity (which is a term not officially defined) I do not know. Interesting to explore on the page; however we have to  beware of original research and/or POV's Arnoutf 19:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Just like the official policy in the French Republic (France) declares the French people are not an ethnicity (or race), but a nationality based on citizenship within the French republic and overseas territories, or anyone who immigrated and naturalized to become citizens. The Netherlands and Belgians may have similar proclamations to encourage cultural integration and assimilation of newcomers into the Dutch (and in Belgium, national French or Dutch) national culture, by insisting on the avoidance of the term "race", "ethnicity" and "color" of peoples. Most Dutch (and French) are white Europeans of the so-called Caucasian race, especially the Dutch are of multiple ancestries: Celtic, Iberian, Mediterranean and Slavic origins, not only Germanic that Paul obsesses about the Dutch are "very German". Rex, you are quite knowledgable on the dangers of nationalism in an encyclopedia...and the Dutch aren't officially part of Germany or not been part of the German Confederation/German Empire, nor was "unified" with West Germany like the Eastern sector was in 1990. Now, what makes up a race (or major subdivision of the human race) is heavily studied without bias but thesis-and-statement to gone into detail (the HGP-Human Genome Project), tooth-and-nail, to uncover the most accurate report on the origins of the human species. But, the new "correct" theory on race is strictly an artificial social construct without a biological basis is anthropologists, biologists, linguists, scientists and sociologists. There's a Dutch people without doubt as a result of over a millennia (1,500 years) of banding together as a country or into smaller regions/provinces. The Dutch Reformed Church, for example, isn't the main foundation of Dutch culture but a Dutch national institution represented by a king or queen of the Dutch Royal family, the head of state and popular symbol of the Netherlands' pride and foundation as a country. The church is established worldwide in Europe, Africa, Asia, Oceania and the Americas, with separate chapters go by the name "Reformed" church (dropped the name "Dutch" from the title) in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Their membership are mostly of Dutch descent...but inclusive and accepted converts of all races and nationalities. + 63.3.14.129 10:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Rex, you don't believe in false notions of racial superiority and inferiority. I don't know you live in America or Europe or wherever, since I'm in California, US where it seems the people are less prejudiced on these matters than most states. But just like the Dutch, we got our share of pathetic and ridiculous racism against minorities, because of their race or skin color or where they come from (high rates of immigration from Asia and Latin America, esp. the controversy on illegal immigration from Mexico is a serious regional and national issue). You ever heard of a Christmas-time traditional character in Belgium and Holland: Zwerte Piet or they call him in Nord/pas du Calais, France: Le Delve Noire? For four centuries, he was a beloved African character who assisted St. Nicholas (santa Claus) and the elves, and he happens to been a former slave from Morocco (or Spain) when he was discovered. But in today's P-C world, the idea of a "black elf" is considered immoral, racially insensitive to many people (diversity activists) and now inappropriate for young children in the Netherlands and Belgium. Zwerte Piet is always caricatured as a classic "Negro" stereotype (caricatures and racial traits), and held to be an inaccurate description of Africans (btw...Morocco is in North Africa, an Arabic-speaking country and primarily Muslim not Christian) or degrades/offends some black people in today's race-mixed Europe. I heard stories of American tourists went to Holland or Belgium for Christmas and discovered parades, dolls, figurines, carved "giant" statues, story books, comics, magazine ads and TV commercials featured zwerte piet with disgust and confusion. I don't know in these times, the Dutch and Belgians wants to have fun on the idea of a kid-friendly, but racially-charged holiday myth, I just know the Dutch are very tolerant of any group of people welcomed to their country for asylum and opportunity. Zwerte piet, as legend says was fortunately freed from slavery, should be placed higher than a "racist stereotype" or gives the wrong impression to a few American tourists. + 63.3.14.1 14:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: No problem, your opinion is based on social and scientific knowledge on the topic of "race", "ethnicity" and "culture" are artificial (just like nation-states like Holland and Belgium don't follow previous historic boundaries), but genetically related traits associated with groups of people are real, yet not isolated to a geographical race. The Dutch aren't 100% Germanic people, nor the Flemish and Dutch are 100% the same ethnic group, and "Low German" is more of a regional identity or part of a language family...Rex, you're a scholar on this subject more than me or Paul. I don't really doubt you, but the predominance of blond hair, blue eyes and tall height of the Dutch with those of Germans and Scandinavians have to do with the Northern European peoples share common ancestor(s), but there are blondes, blue-eyed and tall people in every "race" of mankind other than the Dutch and Flemings. + 63.3.14.2 16:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Difference between the Netherlands and the Kingdom of the Netherlands 

message: This sentence strikes me as odd:
Generally the Dutch are described as being very tall, and they are indeed the tallest people on earth.
The sources added to support this claim are from 2004. I might be mistaken, but I believe that since then there have been other scientific rapports have been put out about the height of the Dutch people. I wonder, has such a research been performed under people of Dutch origin, or to the people of the Netherlands? --Soetermans 22:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Probable, but not likely. Even if that was the case, "non-Dutch" groups (such as marocans, turks and Germans) have a lower average.Rex 22:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

text: To assume the Dutch are "very tall' is like to say the French, the Japanese (and other east or southeast Asians), the "Pygmies" or "Bushmen" of southern Africa, the Native Americans of the Southwest US, and other groups around the world, are short like under 5'5" at the least. I'm sure there's proof on over half or a majority of Dutch people are over 5'8" (can anyone translate it into metric here?)according to (un)scientific physiological polls, but note this is where some negative or exaggerated ethnic stereotypes come from. You'll encounter 6'5" Chinese olympic basketball players, the same is true for the French basketball team and we've heard so much on tall west Africans, but not all Black people or Africans are over 6 feet tall...see what do I tell you? From my personal experience on the concept of race, genetics and heredity, I've inherited both "Dutch" and "American Indian" genes (and rumors of Jewish-European forebears or Afro-American ancestors, but unable to find it in my family tree, then I never know over the millions of years the human race existed). My maternal side has Cherokee/ Osage relatives at 5'10" to 6' (so is my mother), but my father of part-Flemish/Dutch descent but a French citizen being from northernmost France is 5'5" (I'm 5'9", so is my brother)...and my half-sister from Dad's first marriage is 5'2", while her late mother of "east coast" Irish/English/Dutch/German (and possibly Spanish/Californian, not "Mexican" or the post-1900 immigration to southern Cal.) ancestry is about 5'5". For a White American to have some Native American descent is said quite common (there's a difference between one born/raised to knew he/she was 1/5 "Indian", compared to someone "discovered" to be 1/20 (or an "Indian" about six generations ago) and never came across some forms of discrimination by other "white" or other people), no longer had a social stigma attached. But, you'll have skeptics assume for most white Americans to think they have Amerindian blood in them, is another way to disguise/cover up a possible "slave"/black African (or in Cal., Chinese or Japanese back in the late 1800's) ancestor or their distant relatives had an once forbidden inter-racial romance or rape, and usually mixed-race descendants ended up being legally "black" (the "one drop rule" are bygone state laws and US census practices to categorize any person of any trace of black/African-American descent, even the person is 90% White Caucasian, into the status of a racial minority group), or in the lowest socio-economic strata and far apart in the American cultural periphery. This is what Rex talks about, the idea of race is an artifical construct, but it's possible for anyone like myself to carry physiological traits of both "races". The most accurate scientific study of race (not limited to ones' skin color) are the "major divisions" of humanity, again not always exactly like that: Caucasoid (Europeans, the Middle East and East Indians), Negroid (Africans, but like Caucasians, the race is further subdivided to smaller ones by region or tribe), Mongoloid (east Asians, but includes Native Americans and Polynesians) and Australoid (Aborigines, Melanesians and some tribes of Dravidians or Negritos in south Asia), and my point is the "Dutch" and "Flemish" people aren't biological terms, but are nationalities invented by mankind's urge and custom on how we identify by "race", or tribalism in our tendency to decide whether he/she belongs to the tribe. + 63.3.14.2 16:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: It is somewhere in the 'bouwbesluit' that around 2005? the proscribed height of doors was increased. I looked it up once for wiki, but can't remember where I placed it. Arnoutf 08:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Dutch: tallest people? 

message: The background of Paul111s revert cannot be learned from this page. 
However, I agree with him the strangely compiled set of edits by User:213.125.116.112 should be reverted; as it not only reverts Paul111's edits but a few others as well, and there is no place it actually reverts to that I could find. Such a complex edit needs a better summary and/or discussion here. Therefore I agree that this revert was justified (although the edit summary was not very informative or concise) 
I agree with Rex, that Paul111 only responds to questions here if it fits his agenda; which in my opinion is not a very constructive attitude. Arnoutf 15:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is a shame he only uses this talkpage to vent his opinion rather than to solve issues. His denial of sources and casual use of "per talk page" is not the wikipedia way.Rex 18:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Undo blanket revert....

message: It was claimed that Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden speaks of Zuid-Nederlanders (approximately 'South-Dutch') especially in the period after the Dutch Revolt. It does not. It uses only geographic terms and names of geopolitical entities, such as 'Spanish Netherlands' and 'Austrian Netherlands', and the adjectival forms derived from these names. It does use the word 'Belgians' from after the 1830 secession. Zuid-Nederlands is an established linguistic term, and has some cultural uses as well. However it is not the name of an ethnic group, it is not a sub-division of an ethnic group, and it does not imply that there is a single ethnic group living in the Netherlands and Flanders. Its use in this way is unsourced. Replacement with a geographic term is the simple solution.Paul111 18:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Zuid Nederlands is by no means a linguistically used term. Never.Rex 18:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: mmmm now you are doing what you accuse Rex of, referring to wiki pages; and who is to say anything about the quality/value of a sister project talk page..... Arnoutf 19:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is not a source, you cannot use Wikipedia as a reference. I question your claims and you REFUSE to answer them on this talk page. The ridiculous claim that sources arent required for talkpages is a laugh. Since you refuse to give them in the article, please tell me Paul111 how do you expect to create a referenced article?! Rex 11:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Paul, where did you get the claim of a "grass-roots" South-Dutch ethnic or provincial movement? I've heard of Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden or the Zuid-Nederlander (actually, Rex is right...the activists in the 18th and 19th centuries succeeded in having the Catholic portions of what was the Netherlands to become Belgium...we call them Flemish and Zeelandic, or if they live in the kingdom of Belgium, they are Belgians. So, the problem of the national concern of Zuid-Nederlanders about to break away from the Dutch Protestant north is unclear and questionable. Paul can't find one web page or organization letter to address the Zuid-Nederlander cause is in question. Besides, the Dutch have a great tradition of religious tolerance and the status of Dutch Catholics are very positive, as well there are other Protestant churches in the Netherlands. There are small church membership rolls of Dutch (and some Belgian) church attendees belong to these Protestant sects: Adventists, Anglicans, Christian Science, Eastern Rite, Evangelicals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Mormons, Orthodox Christians, Pentecostals, Uniates and the Moravian Church. + 63.3.14.129 11:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  'South-Dutch' as ethnic group 

message: A few days ago Paul111 made a very wise remark referring to Wikipedia:Resolving disputes.
I think this artice is dominated by 3 editors (myself, Rex and Paul111) who are in obvious dispute. The problem is that other editors and possibly valuable edits are not made because people shy away from getting involved in the dispute. I agree with Paul111 we have to find a way out.
Going through the stages of conflict resolution, I think the talk to stages stage 1 - 'talk to each other' is not very feasible at the moment, as we do not seem to communicate, but produce a lot of text doing so. 
So I would suggest for all three of us to go to stage 2 (disengage). So I call on both you (Paul111 and Rex) to leave this page as it is at twelve midnight on January 28/29 untill February 14th (I will stop editing and posting immediately after this message but you should have an opportunity to respond). That means I call upon both of you not to edit the page (barring very, very obvius vandalism) nor vent discussion for about two weeks. Perhaps the issue is cooled down after that and we can go back to stage 1 (talking). Otherwise stage 3 offers a lot of options to involve neutral 3rd person editors. 
This is the last you guys will see from me on this page for a few weeks. Arnoutf 20:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is not confined to this talk page or article. The underlying problem is the use of Wikipedia articles to promote the claims of specific nationalist ideologies, see for example Vergina Sun and Macedonians (ethnic group), or Zionism and Palestinian people. There are issues similar to those here, at Flemish people and there were at Greater Netherlands. Conflicts should not obscure the goal of an accurate article, and accuracy should not be abandoned in pursuit of consensus. Wikipedia should not be used as a vehicle for nationalist (including irredentist) claims. In this specific case, the article would be improved by renaming it back to Dutch people or adding the term nation to the title. Limiting it to a presumed Dutch ethnic group (anterior to the Dutch state) is itself inaccurate and misleading. The article should give some historical background, but focus on the current issues in the Netherlands, concerning national and ethnic identity.Paul111 11:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Rex, thanks for the mass deletion of my useful edits :-( They are facts and for real, not made up stuff. I wish to retrace my steps to where I got them from. Oh well...REFERENCED. Let's see...I won't come to the article again, like paul right? Btw...I'm American of Dutch descent and fascinated on subjects of the Low countries. Rex, you would know the same stuff are factual, and you know any web links to research the subjects? The SS article has good amount of info. on SS Walloonie, the Dutch polders and dykes are described in where else...the Netherlands article, and the Dutch Reformed Church article has an extensive list of countries the  church is located and their missionary work programs. I apologize for the failure to "meet wikipedia standards or criteria", but you're able to (or other wiki admins, since I'm not one) look the edits before they're deleted? Oh...the foreign profanity article has a thing on Dutch language obscenities/profanities (the main root of Dutch profane words are disease/sickness!) for encyclopediac reasons (should I discuss this issue in the talk:Dutch language page?). I'm able to look at the bad words and definintions, which I don't like either...but didn't allow it get to me. 63.3.14.2 19:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Conflict resolution

message: The Dutch are referred to as a very tolerant people, but I thought the Dutch and Flemings are more conservative than let's say France or Germany in the 18th and 19th, even the early 20th centuries. The rural areas in Belgium and Southern Netherlands are more Catholic and they tend to attend church more regularly than in the Northern parts or in major cities (Amsterdam, Brussels and Rotterdam). The Eurobarometer indicates just the opposite of the Dutch are more portrayed as "atheists", the other poll over a quarter of the Dutch and Belgians are non-religious. Other stereotypes about the Dutch are politically "far-left" , extreme socialists and anti-capitalist activism made the Netherlands to share a reputation like California has in the US...a "safe haven" for sexual fetishism, moral/legal perversion, strong sense of anticonformity and a hotbed for political correctness. There's a rise of ecofascism and National Socialist black metal bands indicates there's a growing nazi-influenced Germanic neopagan movement in Belgium and the Netherlands, but most neopagans are more likely to express left-wing and pacifist, as well ecological views against Nazism and fascism. The article had a hilarious Dutch maiden painting shown her with a joint and a beer bottle-like bucket of typically Dutch items, she stands in front of smoke stack factories and polluted canals filled with industrial runoff. I guess the Dutch aren't so "green" and environmentally conscious like the world thinks of them after all, they are also portrayed as "tree-humpers", organic vegans, "back-to-nature" hippies, "flower children" dancing in the tulips, all the men are "gay" and the women rule over them (note the queen is in charge...well, the head of state of the Netherlands), is standup comedy of how we Americans viewed those "free-wheeling" Dutch in the US (we need another liberal progressive secular "blue state" to keep in balance with those "patriotic" conservative bible belt "red states" in check). But the Dutch's excellent system of dams, dykes, man-made isles and polders can keep the Netherlands "high and dry" while the world's coastal and low-lying areas face the challenge of the earth's sea level rise may displace millions of people without the kind of system the Dutch developed for thousands of years. + 63.3.14.1 04:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Netherlands Dutch stereotypes 

message: The accuracy is still dipsputed and most of the disputed claims have been re-inserted. For a general list of disputed claims, see the list above, the main problems are claims that Flemings and Dutch constitute one people, that this single Dutch people existed prior to the Dutch Revolt, the claim that the Dutch are a Germanic people, and inclusion of Flemish and Afrikaner populations in the table, leading to inflated population figures for the 'Dutch'.
To address these issues the following deletions are necessary:
*Dutch are a Germanic people: cited source (Britannica) does not say the Dutch are a Germanic people, and it does not say that speakers of Dutch belong to a Germanic people. It identifies the Germanic peoples as historically existing Indo-European peoples who later assimilated (by the Middle Ages). It does not say the Dutch are an Indo-European people, and it does not equate Indo-European language speakers with the Indo-European peoples. A map of Indo-European language distribution, for instance in the Britannica article on that subject, does not in itself show the ethnic groups in the area covered are either 'Indo-European' or 'Germanic'.
* Historically the Dutch chiefly lifed the Low Countries and Northern France but have since the 12th century spread all over the world. No source for claim that Dutch ethnic group ever lived in Northern France. No source for claim that  Dutch people existed in the 12th century. Inline reference refers to another section of this article itself, and is not an external reliable source, see WP:SOURCE. In any case, the book quoted in the Dutch diaspora section (Dik Linthout's Onbekende Buren) does not say that a Dutch ethnic group lived in Northern France, or that Dutch people existed in the 12th century.
* 30 million Dutch: the only source given for this figure is that some people believe that Flemish and Dutch are one people. Some people do, but they are a small minority, most of them to the right of Vlaams Belang in Flanders. That is not a sufficient source for a claimed population of 30 million ethnic Dutch.
* Flemings listed as Dutch in population table: no source. Cited CIA Factbook simply says that 68% of the Belgian population are Dutch speakers. It does not say they are Dutch.
*5 million Afrikaners listed as Dutch in population table: no source. Cited source simply says they are of partial Dutch ancestry.
*"Historically the modern Dutch and the people now known as Flemings were considered one people. Cited source, Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden, does not say what it is claimed to say: it does not speak of Nederlanders before the Dutch Revolt, (or from the time of the Franks). On the contrary, it consistently avoids the term Nederlanders until it treats the Dutch Revolt, and for the period before that uses the geographical term only, Nederlanden, in the plural, meaning Low Countries. In the introduction it states explicitly that the book is a history of a geographical area, Nederlanden. Request to quote the passage or provide a page reference for the claimed material in Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden did not lead to either being provided. Inline reference also claims that Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden speaks of Zuid-Nederlanders (approximately 'South-Dutch') especially in the period after the Dutch Revolt, implying a politically divided 'Dutch' ethnic group. It does not: it uses only geographic terms and names of geopolitical entities, such as 'Spanish Netherlands' and 'Austrian Netherlands', and the adjectival forms derived from these names. It does use the word 'Belgians' from after the 1830 secession. Additionally, non-usage of the term 'Flemish' does not show that the Dutch and Flemish were considered one people and can not form a source for that claim. 
*Dutch and Flemish see themselves as the closest related people. Cited source - page 21 of a Clingendael Institute study, in a section on the perception of similarity  - does not say this. In fact it says the the Dutch respondents saw the Belgians as the most similar people. The cited section does not use the word 'Fleming' or 'Flemish'.
* Afrikaners generally do not consider themselves to only be ethnic Dutch. Delete word only, it implies they do consider themselves to be Dutch. No source for implied claim that Afrikaners self-identify as ethnic Dutch.
*Dutch immigrants went to Brandenburg in 1157. No source for existence of a Dutch people in 1157. Cited source, (Dik Linthout's book on relations between Germany and the Netherlands, Onbekende Buren) does not use the term Dutch for these emigrants (and does not mention the year 1157 either).
*Dietsland name for image: linked article has been renamed from 'Dietsland' to Greater Netherlands.
*the (future) Dutch were led by Germanic chieftains. Implies that a pre-mediaeval ethnic group were Dutch in some way, and implies a non-existent ethnic continuity. No source for the existence of 'future Dutch'.
* the Dutch now answered to the East Frankish and later German King, which continued until the Dutch revolt. Implies that a Dutch people existed at that time, i.e. before the Dutch Revolt. No soure for existence of a Dutch people at that time.
No source is required for the deletion of unsourced material, and no arguments are required, see WP:DELETE. The onus is entirely on the editors who want to retain material, to provide a reliable source for it. These points have been discussed already, and no consensus has been reached. A cooling-off period also failed, since not all editors observed it, and disputed material was simply re-inserted. The next step in the dispute resolution procedure should therefore be followed, which is most appropriately a request for comment.Paul111 11:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I strongly urge you to stop implementing your bias on this article. You make up nonsense. Yes, indeed. You refuse to show where the article claims what you says it claims and as a result of that you think you have to the right to imlement your changes. We've provided references for everything we claim, stop showering this talk page with made up claims.Rex 14:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

text: PLEASE DO NOT LIE PAUL111.Rex 21:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Do not revert any edits untill you show us WHERE we claim what YOU CLAIM we claim in the article. This is NOT the same as making up a list with accusations from which you supposably get the right to remove REFERENCED INFORMATION.Rex 12:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Answer the questions or you WILL be continually reverted. You accuse people from adding false information, providing false references and have even accused some of nazism AND YOU REFUSE TO PRESENT PROOF. All you do is claim stuff is in the article that ISN'T THERE and that's lying Paul111, and that extremely unwikilike.Rex 21:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I hate to interrupt, but I came upon a map of the German language (where it was spoken in 1910 before the outbreak of World War I). I spotted the light-orange shaded area of "Low Saxon/Low German" speaking people in the Netherlands! Could Paul be right...on one thing? The Low Saxons or "Low Germans" in the Netherlands are simply Dutch when it comes to nationality and citizenship. I disagree with Paul's "Germanophilia" or what kinda sounds like Nazi propaganda out of the pages of Hitler's notorious novel mein kampf. The map clearly shows a few Dutch people, if they came from Northwest Germany, may be refered to as "Low Germans" or correctly, are able to speak or understand the Low Saxon-German dialect. Note the German language map only shown the distributed range of German in the early 1900's and would be quite different today (the former OstPrussien or east German provinces of Poland and Kaliningrad province of Russia since World War II). Check out the link and what's your comments on the matter, Rex?+      
 Map of the distributed range of the German Language in 1910 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.3.14.2 (talk) Mike D 26 02:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I never understood why Dunkerque (Dunkirk), France was shaded dark green to indicate German was spoken there. I thought it was Dutch or a dialect based on the Flemish, since the city was part of the historic province of Flanders. Some data in the 1910 map doesn't rule out the absolute accuracy on the range of German-speaking areas and population. I do know, the range has shifted and changed boundaries after the two world wars and the Soviets' expulsion of ethnic Germans out of Eastern Europe. + Mike D 26 02:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  February 2007 deletion list 

message: ::Do not revert any edits untill you show us WHERE we claim what YOU CLAIM we claim in the article. This is NOT the same as making up a list with accusations from which you supposably get the right to remove REFERENCED INFORMATION.Rex 12:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Answer the questions or you WILL be continually reverted. You accuse people from adding false information, providing false references and have even accused some of nazism AND YOU REFUSE TO PRESENT PROOF. All you do is claim stuff is in the article that ISN'T THERE and that's lying Paul111, and that extremely unwikilike.Rex 21:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Message (once again) to Paul111

message: ::: I hate to interrupt, but I came upon a map of the German language (where it was spoken in 1910 before the outbreak of World War I). I spotted the light-orange shaded area of "Low Saxon/Low German" speaking people in the Netherlands! Could Paul be right...on one thing? The Low Saxons or "Low Germans" in the Netherlands are simply Dutch when it comes to nationality and citizenship. I disagree with Paul's "Germanophilia" or what kinda sounds like Nazi propaganda out of the pages of Hitler's notorious novel mein kampf. The map clearly shows a few Dutch people, if they came from Northwest Germany, may be refered to as "Low Germans" or correctly, are able to speak or understand the Low Saxon-German dialect. Note the German language map only shown the distributed range of German in the early 1900's and would be quite different today (the former OstPrussien or east German provinces of Poland and Kaliningrad province of Russia since World War II). Check out the link and what's your comments on the matter, Rex?+      
 Map of the distributed range of the German Language in 1910 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.3.14.2 (talk) Mike D 26 02:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I never understood why Dunkerque (Dunkirk), France was shaded dark green to indicate German was spoken there. I thought it was Dutch or a dialect based on the Flemish, since the city was part of the historic province of Flanders. Some data in the 1910 map doesn't rule out the absolute accuracy on the range of German-speaking areas and population. I do know, the range has shifted and changed boundaries after the two world wars and the Soviets' expulsion of ethnic Germans out of Eastern Europe. + Mike D 26 02:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Other matter

message: Paul111 has spend nearly his entire time on this wikipedia project removing information and accusing people. On this very talk pages he has made "list" in which he arrogantly places himself into a kind of a "censor" position to which every other editor must comply. Completely against the ideology behind Wikipedia. This lists are however, filled with made up claims, and paul111 continually refuses to say where the article makes these claims. He does not discus but instead repeats himself. I would like to ask every wikipedia wether a registered user or an anonymous editor to revert paul111 untill he has made clear where the article claims what he says it does. Rex 21:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is true that points which have been removed from the article are no longer in the article. However, if they are re-inserted, then they are back in the article. They are then subject to removal if - as in this case - they are controversial, their accuracy is disputed, and no reliable source has been provided.Paul111 13:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I will try to help you rex in removing Paul111s vandalism (though I dont he's a vandal, rather just destroying the article) as much as I can.213.125.116.112 10:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: "Note that the figures below do not always differentiate between full Dutch etnicity, decent or heritage.".
 
 
This is a fact, which Paul111 furiously tries to remove from the article. He revisions history.
Belgium, between 1971-1980, for example had 3 "cultural communities", A Dutch, French and German one. Only after 1980 did it become known as the Flemish community. Why would Flemings be part of the Dutch cultural community if they weren't and didn't consider themselves part of a broader Dutch people? 
What Paul111 "forgets" to say is that the same source also makes it very clear most Dutch people think of Flemings when they speak of Belgians.
Here Paul111 makes things up. The article is very clear that the Afrikaners have Dutch heritage, but aren't seen as a part of the Dutch people. This is a good example of a claim in Paul111s authorian lists which isn't in the article.
It implies no such thing. The Dutch' ancestors were mostly Germanic tribes and hence, they are regarded as their ancestors. That is the only reason why "future" is used.
Rex 14:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Merriam-Webster does not say that the Dutch are a Germanic people. Dik Linthout's Onbekende Buren does not say that a Dutch ethnic group lived in Northern France, or that Dutch people existed in the 12th century, and that can not be inferred from its other content. Flemings and Afrikaners are listed in the infobox for the 'Dutch ethnic group', and the total of 25 million includes at least one of them, to reach that figure. Groups of Dutch descent can be removed from the infobox, and treated in the Diaspora section: that would resolve this issue at least. The Clingendael Institute study says clearly that follow-up research is necessary to determine attitudes to Flemings. It does not say that Flemings are the 'closest related people', nor that they can be considered as such. As far as the other points go, a reliable source is still needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul111 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Hey Rex, I'm on a wikipedia account. The history section stated the Dutch homeland include all of Northernmost France, not limited to the present-day Nord/Pas de Calais or "Flanders" region. If you drive west of St. Omer all the way to the English Channel instead of north to Calais, you may notice several towns or villages end in the word "hem". I figure this is from the  Germanic languages ("heim"), but may be the French spelling of the Anglo-Saxon "ham". Is it a Dutch linguistic term or more of a reminder of the English era in this part of France from the 11th to 15th centuries? St. Omer was named for the saint of Omer, but the surrounding area has St. George, the same patron saint in England. Let me get it straight...was the Nord/Pas de Calais region co-founded by peoples of Anglo/Saxon origin, not only by the Dutch and Flemings lived there for over a millennia? I've heard a few legends or tales of the Moroni (a tribe of Flemish? Dutch? Celto-Latin? background) might been able to visited the southeastern end of England (Kent, where Dover sits in and only 30 miles from Calais). I never came across evidence to support the claim, but I'm sure the Morini (like the Dutch) made grass-made or wooden boats to get around in the low-lying wetlands, canals and lakes found everywhere in Nord/Pas de Calais. + Mike D 26 03:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: These are lies. The book attempts to explain the differences between the German and Dutch people and also gives the historical developement. What you say and claim here has no value.Rex 16:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: When a book about Elephants speaks of "the trunked animals" on one page, this doesn't mean that page isn't about elephants. Linthouts book is about the Dutch and Germans and that's what he speaks of. Stop this ridicule.Rex 16:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE FOR THAT FACT THAT NO DUTCH GROUP EXISTED IN THE MIDDLE AGES?! WE HAVE A REFERENCE THAT SAYS THERE WAS ONE. WHERE ARE YOURS?! THIS IS FOR DISCUSSING AND WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING EXCEP A FLAWED OPINION:LEAVE.Rex 12:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: REVERSIONS OF PAUL111

message: The area of the Netherlands (as wel as Northern Belgium) have since the migration period been occupied by Germanic peoples. The "French-Dutch", as wel as it's historical "Roman(ce)-Germanic" linguistic border can be considered to be a good example of the area of settlement in Europe. Britannica makes very clear that Germanic people are those who speak a Germanic language. Dutch is a Germanic language. Merriam-Webster () too makes clear that "Germanic" simply means "of, relating to, or characteristic of the Germanic-speaking peoples". The main reason why this term is disputed by Paul111 is because he (solely) associates it with nazism rather than science. His "evidence" for his views have been pictures of old Nazi Propaganda and links to wikipedia articles on SS brigades. Nazism, the German army between 1933-1945 and nazi propaganda ... hardly reliable.
The book of Dik Linthout, for those unfamiliar with the author, is about the cultural (and to some degree linguistic) differences between the German and the Dutch people. The book is about the Dutch and German people. Why on earth would he write about then paul111? Are you going to (accidentally of course) misquote this book again like you did before? 
An ethnic group in it's broadest sense is about people feeling connected culturally, and language is a major factor. The fact that Dutch has been documented since the 5th century AD means it was already spoken for 700 years before the first "Dutch" people left the Netherlands is another (aside the book quote) indication of a Dutch ethnic group living at the time. Paul111 needs to get his definitions (among others) of an ethnic group straight.
  
Members of certain political ideologies. Which paul111 attempted to place on the extreme right (which isn't by far always the case, a clear sign of his bias) view the Flemish and Dutch as a single ethnic group. For all they care there are 13 million Flemings living in the Netherlands. Point is they exist, and they represent a noteworthy point of view. The Flemings are not included in the number total of the infobox, which lists 25 million Dutch people and thus it is made clear (in the infobox as wel as the article) that it is not a mainstream point of view (in the same way that the idea of a Flemish ethnic group is not commonly accepted.)
 
The source is only used to determin the number of Dutch speakers in Belgium, or Flemings. Explanation of the reasons for semi-inclusion are given (clearly) in the article.
The infobox has a clear disclaimer in which it explains what is listed in the infobox:
:"Note that the figures below do not always differentiate between full Dutch etnicity, decent or heritage.".
 
 
This is a fact, which Paul111 furiously tries to remove from the article. He revisions history.
Belgium, between 1971-1980, for example had 3 "cultural communities", A Dutch, French and German one. Only after 1980 did it become known as the Flemish community. Why would Flemings be part of the Dutch cultural community if they weren't and didn't consider themselves part of a broader Dutch people? 
What Paul111 "forgets" to say is that the same source also makes it very clear most Dutch people think of Flemings when they speak of Belgians.
Here Paul111 makes things up. The article is very clear that the Afrikaners have Dutch heritage, but aren't seen as a part of the Dutch people. This is a good example of a claim in Paul111s authorian lists which isn't in the article.
It implies no such thing. The Dutch' ancestors were mostly Germanic tribes and hence, they are regarded as their ancestors. That is the only reason why "future" is used.
Rex 14:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Merriam-Webster does not say that the Dutch are a Germanic people. Dik Linthout's Onbekende Buren does not say that a Dutch ethnic group lived in Northern France, or that Dutch people existed in the 12th century, and that can not be inferred from its other content. Flemings and Afrikaners are listed in the infobox for the 'Dutch ethnic group', and the total of 25 million includes at least one of them, to reach that figure. Groups of Dutch descent can be removed from the infobox, and treated in the Diaspora section: that would resolve this issue at least. The Clingendael Institute study says clearly that follow-up research is necessary to determine attitudes to Flemings. It does not say that Flemings are the 'closest related people', nor that they can be considered as such. As far as the other points go, a reliable source is still needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul111 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Hey Rex, I'm on a wikipedia account. The history section stated the Dutch homeland include all of Northernmost France, not limited to the present-day Nord/Pas de Calais or "Flanders" region. If you drive west of St. Omer all the way to the English Channel instead of north to Calais, you may notice several towns or villages end in the word "hem". I figure this is from the  Germanic languages ("heim"), but may be the French spelling of the Anglo-Saxon "ham". Is it a Dutch linguistic term or more of a reminder of the English era in this part of France from the 11th to 15th centuries? St. Omer was named for the saint of Omer, but the surrounding area has St. George, the same patron saint in England. Let me get it straight...was the Nord/Pas de Calais region co-founded by peoples of Anglo/Saxon origin, not only by the Dutch and Flemings lived there for over a millennia? I've heard a few legends or tales of the Moroni (a tribe of Flemish? Dutch? Celto-Latin? background) might been able to visited the southeastern end of England (Kent, where Dover sits in and only 30 miles from Calais). I never came across evidence to support the claim, but I'm sure the Morini (like the Dutch) made grass-made or wooden boats to get around in the low-lying wetlands, canals and lakes found everywhere in Nord/Pas de Calais. + Mike D 26 03:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

text: These are lies. The book attempts to explain the differences between the German and Dutch people and also gives the historical developement. What you say and claim here has no value.Rex 16:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: List, message to Paul as he refuses to answer questions directed at him

message: Rex Germanus gave as a source for the passage on 'Dutch' emigration in the early Middle Ages the book Onbekende Buren, by Dik Linthout, page 102/103. The following points do not appear on those two pages. Please quote the passage from they book where they do appear, or give a page reference:
*The first big wave of Dutch immigrants to leave the Low Countries came from present day Northern Belgium as they wanted to escape the heavily urbanised cities in Western Flanders. No mention of this on page 102 or 103 of Linthout's book. text appears to have been copied from the Fläming article, which itself gives no source.
*They arrived in Brandenburg in 1157. No mention of this and year 1157 does not appear on the two pages.
*Due to this, the area is known as "Fläming" (Fleming) in reference to Duchy that these immigrants came from. No mention of Fläming on page 102 or 103 of Linthout's book.
Linthout does say that farmers migrated to The Wash in Britain, the delta of the Gironde in France, around Bremen, Hamburg and western North Rhine-Westphalia and to the Elbe and around Berlin He does not use the word 'Dutch' for them, but only the geographical terms for their region of origin, e.g. Holland.Paul111 11:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When a book about Elephants speaks of "the trunked animals" on one page, this doesn't mean that page isn't about elephants. Linthouts book is about the Dutch and Germans and that's what he speaks of. Stop this ridicule.Rex 16:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE FOR THAT FACT THAT NO DUTCH GROUP EXISTED IN THE MIDDLE AGES?! WE HAVE A REFERENCE THAT SAYS THERE WAS ONE. WHERE ARE YOURS?! THIS IS FOR DISCUSSING AND WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING EXCEP A FLAWED OPINION:LEAVE.Rex 12:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dik Linthout as source

message: The table contradicts itself. It is a table for the Dutch ethnic group, but includes a disclaimer to say it is not. The disclaimer does not say which entries it covers, and the table includes groups with other names and disputed 'Dutch' ethnicity. It is in any case selective in its inclusion of ethnic/population groups of partial Dutch descent. The total population given is not the sum of the entries, and no explanation is given of how it was reached. No source is given for the 'related groups' or the languages, both of which are controversial issues. I suggest that this article dispense with a table, because of the inherent controversies, and lack of official definitions and statistics for the 'Dutch' population.Paul111 10:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a total outrage and you are on the brink of being reported a vandal by me, and hiding behind WP:DELETE wont help you there. "Dutch" has multiple interpretations and hence those are given in the box. You knowingly removed CORRECT information because YOU couldn't live with the information there. I'm going to keep my promis to Arnoutf but just wait until that date. Scar and delete all you want. Nothing will stand for long.Rex 16:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You can discredit almost any concept by showing their inconsistancies/exceptions. Certain phenomena in quantum mechanics transmit information faster than light (as proved by the experiment in Switzerland). Age and biology dont correlate 100%. These inconsistancies/exceptions dont mean we should throw theory of relativity or limit of legal age. The table gave its warnings. These information should be presented. Lukas19 00:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with all that was said above. (except paul111 of course)213.125.116.112 10:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: All figures in the box have reliable sources. And you deleted referenced material with a lie. Saying that the information was false. You are very lucky nobody reported you.Rex 21:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

text: NEWSFLASH: the French aren't the same as the Dutch. This article adresses the Dutch as an ethnic group. If you want an article on the Dutch nation ... CREATE IT.Rex 16:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Population table removed 

message: Any editor may delete referenced material, if it is disputed and/or likely to be challenged, and without a reliable source. That means an source external to Wikipedia. The mere existence of an inline reference does not provide 'immunity from deletion', or from accuracy and neutrality requirements. Adding an inline reference with extra text, further explanation, details or opinions, does not make a reliable source. Neither does a link to another article at Wikipedia, the guidelines state explicitly that Wikipedia can not serve as a source for itself. That means that a reference to another section within the same article (for instance "see Dutch diaspora section") are not a source either. A source which states one thing is not a reliable source for another thing. No source is required for the deletion of unsourced material, and no arguments are required, and no answers to questions on the talk page are required, see WP:DELETE. The onus is entirely on the editors who want to retain material to provide a reliable source for it. Very dubious political claims have been inserted into this article, and despite repeated requests no source has been provided for most of them. That is why deletion is necessary, because there is a major problem with the accuracy.Paul111 10:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You have made a mistake there. Referenced material is not the same as unreferenced material and cannot be deleted the way you're doing it now. "Disputed" means you have countersources that proof the articles ones false. You don't have those, you only have your personal opinion and the irritating ability to repeat yourself till kingdom come. Rex 16:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Just because you, someone who refuses to accept/see provided references, dispute it doesn't mean it's false. Get that will you.Rex 12:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Indeed something you cannot provide. The sources are reliable and the article does use a neutral tone. Ever wondered why 5 people have been reverting you?!Rex 14:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of referenced material

message: 213.125.116.112 removed my recent contributions to the talk page, including a request for sources addressed to another editor. See the talk page history.Paul111 11:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The actions undertaken by the IP were not wiki-like, yet neither is your behavior. The constant repeating of adressed issues by you and you continually and deliberatly avoiding talk page discussions are what brought us here.Rex 16:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

text: They have been provided you merely continually refuse to see them. That's the case here.Rex 12:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Talk page edits by user 213.125.116.112

message: After the name issue has been resolved one way of the other, I propose to add a Request for comment. (The name change has consequences for the content, since it would end the inplicit limit 'ethnic only').Paul111 13:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This article has always dealt with the ethnic Dutch, hence the name change only has positive consequences for the content. Title and content now fully match.Rex 13:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Request for Comment suggested

message: Although the general north-south division of religions is correct, the exact boundary does not correspond with the last available reliable source, the 1960 census. The maps for this census question are at Map XI-9 of the Atlas van Nederland, (SDU, 1963-1977). The map needs to be corrected. Added signiature. Paul111 18:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see the problem with using this map. It specifically refers to the situation before the influx of guest workers from abroad from 1960 onwards, and any map can only serve as a rough guideline. A map like this should just show a north/south divide and not try to be too precise. Any attempt to create a better map would still only be an approximation (and pretend to be more exact than it is) and I don't even want to think about making one for today. Skeptic77 00:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Religion map inaccurate

message: :Add  # Support  or  # Oppose  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.
====Survey - in support of the move====
#Support. At the time, I tried to push for some consistency accross ethnic group/nation names, but I still don't see why it failed here. Now we have another unnecessary variation on the same theme. From WP:NC(CN): Convention: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. I fail to see why the article was unilaterally moved in the first place. Ah, I guess it's Rex's stanza that "ethnic group" and "nation" are always different things. No they aren't in all cases (unless one wants to debate whether 1% of ethnic minorities make substantial difference), and we normally don't have nor need articles on nations: there's country name and Demographics of Country Name. Duja► 16:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: #Support. At the time, I tried to push for some consistency accross ethnic group/nation names, but I still don't see why it failed here. Now we have another unnecessary variation on the same theme. From WP:NC(CN): Convention: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. I fail to see why the article was unilaterally moved in the first place. Ah, I guess it's Rex's stanza that "ethnic group" and "nation" are always different things. No they aren't in all cases (unless one wants to debate whether 1% of ethnic minorities make substantial difference), and we normally don't have nor need articles on nations: there's country name and Demographics of Country Name. Duja► 16:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in support of the move

message: # Strong Oppose. "Dutch people" are indeed both a nation and an ethnic group. This article is, and always has been about the Dutch as an ethnic group. If you want an article on the Dutch nation go to Demographics of the Netherlands or start a Dutch (nation) article.Rex 21:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey - in opposition to the move

message: There is obviously no consensus to move at this point, but I fear that we will just revisit this again and again unless more editors contribute to this debate, so I am relisting. Andrewa 16:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div>
In spite of this survey, Paul111 has unilaterally moved the page today. I have to say, the move may prove the only way forward, but I am not sure whether unilateral action in this heated debate is a good idea. Arnoutf 16:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Relisting

message: #Rex 20:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Support

message: #I come here as a completely neutral party (came here from WP:RM). There appear to be large parts of this article that are unsourced. There are even more parts of it that seem to undergo ongoing edit wars to change certain figures depending on the source being used. That's pretty strong evidence that the factual accuracy of the article is in question. --- RockMFR 06:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Oppose

message: User:Rex Germanus added the website Roepstem as a source for claims that the Dutch are descended from Germanic tribes, that the Dutch and Flemings were seen as one people, and for the term 'Dutch' for mediaeval emigrants to Germany. Roepstem is a right-wing website which also maintained a forum on the major neonazi forum site skadi.net. Roepstem exchanges material with the Dutch nationalist website heemland.nl, and both are listed as recommend sites [www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/verzameling-verwijzingen-30960.html] for white nationalists by Stormfront.org. The Dutch-language forum at Stormfront, Roepstem and heemland.nl are the three main websites with far-right versions of Dutch and Flemish history, with the emphasis on Germanic origins and ethnic bonds.
The website Roepstem is run by Marcel Bas, who is active on both the Afrikaans and Dutch Wikipedia as user Thiois - he gives his real name on the user page, and links to the Roepstem website. A right-wing activist since the 1990's, he is currently associated with the only 'paleoconservative' website in the Netherlands, OpenOrthodoxie.nl. It also supports the Whole-Netherlands ideology, seeking to unite Afrikaners, Flemings and Dutch. This ideology has almost no support, is largely unknown, and neither OpenOrthodoxie nor Roepstem are reliable sources on Dutch/Flemish/Belgian history.Paul111 10:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Roepstem is not a far-right website. It's a site dedicated to preserve/provide knowledge on the Dutch/Afrikaans culture and the two languages. The fact that neo nazis at stormfront (which you apparently visit) add it as a "useful link" has (or should have) no effect on the source provided. I hope this isn't your new tactic. First you made stuff up that wasn't in the article and claimed there were no sources. Are you going to try to make every link we come up with as if created by hitler himself?! Rex 14:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Btw, the fact that you imediatly attack the supposed author instead of the information is examplary of your disruptive wikipedia behaviour.Rex 14:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

text: No that only means the website doesn't fit your own bias. Just because Nazis use the content doesn't mean its unreliable. Nazis also used the theory of evolution, did that become wrong?Rex 20:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Far-right websites as source 

message: Those of you who've seen the edit history of Dutch (ethnic group) have probably seen the following comment in Paul111s edit summaries: "accuracy dispute, material was reinserted, see deletion list at talk page" and might wonder what this means. "Deletion lists" are lists posted by Paul111 on this talkpage containing information which he claims is false or lacking sources. However, please know that these lists largely (or solely) contain claims that are not in the article or are but are thoroughly referenced. Paul111 ignores comments posted by the other editors that remind him of this and continously repeats himself. I would therefore advise to be very cautious and visit and read the talk page before choosing to aid him.Rex 14:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Message to uninvolved users concerning Paul111s "deletion lists". 

message: ====User Paul111====
The article was originally titled Dutch people but the title was unilaterally changed by one user. The Dutch people are both an ethnic and national group, and their national identity is a major political issue in the Netherlands, since mass immigration in the last decades. What is not in doubt is that the identity relates to the present national territory in Europe, to its history, and mainly to people who were born there. It is xenophobic and inward-looking, as commentators inside and outside the country have noted. However, the accuracy has been compromised by pseudo-historical claims, which are wrong in themselves, unbalance the article, and make it difficult to cover the real identity issues. The version of history presented was approximately this:
:about 1500 years ago the Franks settled in the Low Countries. Since then there has been ethnic and linguistic continuity, with the western Franks later being known as Nederlanders (Dutch). A single ethnic group of this name has inhabited the Low Countries and northern France since the early Middle Ages. It is a Germanic ethnic group, and the present Dutch and Flemish peoples are in fact the same ethnic group. This group was divided by the accidents of history in the 16th century, and many people support the reunification of at least the Netherlands and Flanders. White descendants of Dutch emigrants also belong to the Dutch ethnic group.
The problem is that the historical narrative is false, and no reputable historian supports it. For this reason, users who promote this view can find no reliable historical source. They relied on claims to infer historical facts from sources such as dictionaries, and other Wikipedia articles. Recently, far-right websites have been used as sources.
The general consensus among historians is that the Dutch identity and the Dutch state both start at the Dutch Revolt, that no 'Dutch' entity existed before then, and the Burgundian administrative unification of the Low Countries in the late Middle Ages had not produced a single identity or culture by the time it broke up. The current Dutch identity relates to the present national territory, and the popular idea of Dutch history also starts with the Dutch Revolt, its naval heroes, and the subsequent Golden Age. The current boundaries of the Netherlands and Belgium are indeed artificial, but that does not mean that a "true" ethnic nation would emerge, if they disappeared. Dutch do not see Flemings as Dutch, much less the rest of the population of Belgium. Flemish do not see themselves as Dutch, but as Flemish, with a separate Flemish history. Almost no-one in the Netherlands thinks that 'ethnic Dutch' inhabit northern France. These views are confined to a tiny minority, most of them on the far right, most in Flanders. Their views are irredentist, in Belgium the term rattachisme is used for proposals to 're-attach' Flanders to the Netherlands. The recently cited website Roepstem is an example: its obscure Whole-Netherlands ideology had a following in the 1930's, but at present most people in the Netherlands and Belgium have never heard of it, let alone support it. The disputed content presents the views of less than 0.01% of the population, as if it were historical fact.
Self-identification by a Dutch person as "Germanic" is also extremely rare, and almost entirely confined to neo-nazi websites. "Germanic" is a bona-fide linguistic term but does not apply to modern ethnic groups. The Germanic peoples were assimilated into later ethnic groups, including the modern Germans, by the end of the Middle Ages. Most Dutch people do not consider themselves Germaans (Germanic): it implies they are German (which they typically reject). It also has historical associations with the Nazi occupation of 1940-1945. Nazi propaganda promoted a common 'Germanic' identity of Germans, Scandinavians, Flemings, and Dutch, see Germanic-SS.
The problems at this article recur at others related to nationalism and ethnicity at Wikipedia. Such articles attract content which is controversial, disputed, and often subject to long disputes, see for example Vergina Sun and Macedonians (ethnic group), or Palestinian people. Similar pseudo-historical claims about the Low Countries history have appeared at for instance Flemish people and Greater Netherlands. The problematic claims at this article include any explicit or implicit claim that Flemings and Dutch constitute a single ethnic group, that it inhabits/inhabited the entire Low Countries and present-day northern France, that any "Dutch people" (Nederlanders) existed prior to the mid-16th century and the Dutch Revolt, or that every Dutch-speaking ethnic group is thereby part of the 'Dutch ethnic group'. The derived inclusion of Flemish and Afrikaner populations in the population totals for the 'Dutch people' is also inaccurate. As for the Afrikaners, some of their ancestors are certainly Dutch, but the Dutch colonists did not limit themselves to white partners, and many other South Africans have just as much 'Dutch ancestry'. (Only if they are white and speak Afrikaans are they considered Afrikaners).
Because of the aggressive tone at the talk page, I tried to limit my edits to removal of the disputed material. That was continually reinserted, and an editing truce suggested by one other editor was not observed by others. All my deletions were grounded in lack of reliable sources, including the use of Wikipedia as sole source. Some cited sources simply do not say what they were claimed to say: see the individual points at this talk page. For instance, the CIA Factbook was given as a source for the inclusion of 6 million Flemings as "Dutch". In reality, it says that 68% of the Belgian population are Dutch speakers, that's all. The claim that the Dutch are a Germanic people was inferred from articles in the Britannica. One says that the Germanic peoples were Indo-European peoples speaking a Germanic language, another includes a map of the Indo-European languages. Since Dutch is an Indo-European language, the articles taken together were claimed to show that the Dutch are a Germanic people. In reality, the 'Germanic peoples' article places them in a specific period, Iron Age to early Middle Ages, and does not speak of modern ethnic groups or nations as Germanic peoples.
The article has many other faults, including ethnic boosterism and trivia, and it needs a complete rewrite. However, this RfC is directed at the historical inaccuracies and irredentist claims in the article: they obstruct a good article on the current national identity issue in the Netherlands.Paul111 15:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

message: The article was originally titled Dutch people but the title was unilaterally changed by one user. The Dutch people are both an ethnic and national group, and their national identity is a major political issue in the Netherlands, since mass immigration in the last decades. What is not in doubt is that the identity relates to the present national territory in Europe, to its history, and mainly to people who were born there. It is xenophobic and inward-looking, as commentators inside and outside the country have noted. However, the accuracy has been compromised by pseudo-historical claims, which are wrong in themselves, unbalance the article, and make it difficult to cover the real identity issues. The version of history presented was approximately this:
:about 1500 years ago the Franks settled in the Low Countries. Since then there has been ethnic and linguistic continuity, with the western Franks later being known as Nederlanders (Dutch). A single ethnic group of this name has inhabited the Low Countries and northern France since the early Middle Ages. It is a Germanic ethnic group, and the present Dutch and Flemish peoples are in fact the same ethnic group. This group was divided by the accidents of history in the 16th century, and many people support the reunification of at least the Netherlands and Flanders. White descendants of Dutch emigrants also belong to the Dutch ethnic group.
The problem is that the historical narrative is false, and no reputable historian supports it. For this reason, users who promote this view can find no reliable historical source. They relied on claims to infer historical facts from sources such as dictionaries, and other Wikipedia articles. Recently, far-right websites have been used as sources.
The general consensus among historians is that the Dutch identity and the Dutch state both start at the Dutch Revolt, that no 'Dutch' entity existed before then, and the Burgundian administrative unification of the Low Countries in the late Middle Ages had not produced a single identity or culture by the time it broke up. The current Dutch identity relates to the present national territory, and the popular idea of Dutch history also starts with the Dutch Revolt, its naval heroes, and the subsequent Golden Age. The current boundaries of the Netherlands and Belgium are indeed artificial, but that does not mean that a "true" ethnic nation would emerge, if they disappeared. Dutch do not see Flemings as Dutch, much less the rest of the population of Belgium. Flemish do not see themselves as Dutch, but as Flemish, with a separate Flemish history. Almost no-one in the Netherlands thinks that 'ethnic Dutch' inhabit northern France. These views are confined to a tiny minority, most of them on the far right, most in Flanders. Their views are irredentist, in Belgium the term rattachisme is used for proposals to 're-attach' Flanders to the Netherlands. The recently cited website Roepstem is an example: its obscure Whole-Netherlands ideology had a following in the 1930's, but at present most people in the Netherlands and Belgium have never heard of it, let alone support it. The disputed content presents the views of less than 0.01% of the population, as if it were historical fact.
Self-identification by a Dutch person as "Germanic" is also extremely rare, and almost entirely confined to neo-nazi websites. "Germanic" is a bona-fide linguistic term but does not apply to modern ethnic groups. The Germanic peoples were assimilated into later ethnic groups, including the modern Germans, by the end of the Middle Ages. Most Dutch people do not consider themselves Germaans (Germanic): it implies they are German (which they typically reject). It also has historical associations with the Nazi occupation of 1940-1945. Nazi propaganda promoted a common 'Germanic' identity of Germans, Scandinavians, Flemings, and Dutch, see Germanic-SS.
The problems at this article recur at others related to nationalism and ethnicity at Wikipedia. Such articles attract content which is controversial, disputed, and often subject to long disputes, see for example Vergina Sun and Macedonians (ethnic group), or Palestinian people. Similar pseudo-historical claims about the Low Countries history have appeared at for instance Flemish people and Greater Netherlands. The problematic claims at this article include any explicit or implicit claim that Flemings and Dutch constitute a single ethnic group, that it inhabits/inhabited the entire Low Countries and present-day northern France, that any "Dutch people" (Nederlanders) existed prior to the mid-16th century and the Dutch Revolt, or that every Dutch-speaking ethnic group is thereby part of the 'Dutch ethnic group'. The derived inclusion of Flemish and Afrikaner populations in the population totals for the 'Dutch people' is also inaccurate. As for the Afrikaners, some of their ancestors are certainly Dutch, but the Dutch colonists did not limit themselves to white partners, and many other South Africans have just as much 'Dutch ancestry'. (Only if they are white and speak Afrikaans are they considered Afrikaners).
Because of the aggressive tone at the talk page, I tried to limit my edits to removal of the disputed material. That was continually reinserted, and an editing truce suggested by one other editor was not observed by others. All my deletions were grounded in lack of reliable sources, including the use of Wikipedia as sole source. Some cited sources simply do not say what they were claimed to say: see the individual points at this talk page. For instance, the CIA Factbook was given as a source for the inclusion of 6 million Flemings as "Dutch". In reality, it says that 68% of the Belgian population are Dutch speakers, that's all. The claim that the Dutch are a Germanic people was inferred from articles in the Britannica. One says that the Germanic peoples were Indo-European peoples speaking a Germanic language, another includes a map of the Indo-European languages. Since Dutch is an Indo-European language, the articles taken together were claimed to show that the Dutch are a Germanic people. In reality, the 'Germanic peoples' article places them in a specific period, Iron Age to early Middle Ages, and does not speak of modern ethnic groups or nations as Germanic peoples.
The article has many other faults, including ethnic boosterism and trivia, and it needs a complete rewrite. However, this RfC is directed at the historical inaccuracies and irredentist claims in the article: they obstruct a good article on the current national identity issue in the Netherlands.Paul111 15:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: User Paul111

message: The above heap of text is ridiculous and is the creation of Paul111s imagination. 
Never has this been claimed in the article whatsoever. This is ridiculous, made up and false. User can check it for themselves at any time. This is not what was claimed in anyway. This is purposly misinforming people Paul111. Negative manipulation.
No such consencus exists. There is not a single respected historian I know of that says/claims the Dutch started at the the Dutch revolt. Neither does paul111 as he's never provided any references for this outrageous claim.
This, of all comments, most clearly demonstates you disrupting bias. Germanic does not mean German. And The Dutch are a Germanic people and speak a Germanic language. This is a scientific fact. In Science nobody thinks of the Germanic SS when they write down Germanic. Only you do.
The agressive tone here (if there is any) has come to be because you refuse to discuss matters and accept others referenced views. You have yet to visit this talkpage with anything other than your opinion. 
No, they are grounded by your personal bias. All sources are reliable. Wikipedia articles are not used as references. Merely (in 1 or 2 cases) as further reading.
Again manipulation by Paul111. The source is used to get the number of Dutchophones in Belgium. Other sources already validate the mentioning of Flemings as closely related to the Dutch and because seeing them as solely Dutch is not a general opinion they are not included in the final count. This has been explained to you many times before but you ignore it and hope to manipulate others with false information. Sad.
Everything else you claim is once more (you repeat and repeat ...) either not in the article or already adressed. 
Rex 17:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reaction by Rex to lies/false claims by Paul111

message: *Others can add comments here...
: And so they shall. I'm a history student and, at least formally, a student of Dutch history (my specialism, Military History, falls under that subfaculty), so perhaps I can be of some help.
: The Dutch themselves, as most Europeans, are multi-ethnic, as evidenced by the broad range of appearances, they descended from Celtic tribes, Germanic tribes and Nordic ones. The Dutch are also confused themselves about their cultural / ethnic heritage. So this is a difficult issue. I'd propose to mostly rely on the most used definition of "Nederlands" (the Dutch equivalent of Dutch) and then in the narrow sense which does not include people who are descended from people who were born abroad, with the disclaimer that this is indeed a very narrow definition. I would also suggest throwing out most of the things which are more closely related to the history of the Netherlands than to the Dutch as an ethnic group. Of course they are related, but a history lesson is much better reserved for pages relating to Dutch history than to the Dutch as an ethnic group. We can always refer to Dutch history in passing and leave it at that. In a similar vein, I think culture is separate from the Dutch as an ethnic group. The Dutch culture transcends that ethnic group, especially today and is not intrinsically linked to the people themselves, it is something that is created by them, a product. So there is a connection, yes, but no real need to treat it on this same page. It adds to the confusion, I think. Moreover, it's wrong. The Dutch, as a narrowly defined ethnic group, are not by themselves solely responsible for their culture and their history. BTW, see also my additions in the "Numbers of ethnic Dutch" and "What does Dutch mean" sections on this talk page.
: I would definitely try to steer clear of any race-related or discrimination-related disputes, but apparantly that might be difficult to do here.
: I would like to suggest throwing out most of the talk page and starting anew. This is simply a huge challenge to read through and if this goes on a little while longer, then it'll be impossible for anyone to create anything sensible out of this, while anyone new will just say "sod this" and move on. I'm surprised I haven't done so (yet). Would it be possible for Paul111 to summarize his objections and then keep that and throw everything else out and work from there? IE, if he voluntarily summarizes his objections, then maybe we can try to move on without having to work through a HUGE talk page filled with all kinds of disputes? So, Paul111, if you are seriously interested in creating a better article, then please tell me if you would be willing to write down your most serious objections which we can keep and use as a basis, so we can throw out the rest and then work from there? Otherwise this will undoubtedly end up an edit-war, which is something I don't have time for. Skeptic77 01:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also feel it's important to point out that, as it is now, according to the first lines this article is only about what in Dutch are called "autochtonen" or the indigenous population which can trace back its ancestry to people living within the territory which is today the Netherlands. That is a very narrow definition. But the title of this page is "Dutch people", while in the article itself it says "ethnic group". Dutch people also automatically redirects here. That is confusing. I think we'd be better off to just drop the "ethnic group" thing for this article and just work on the Dutch as a people, the people living in the Netherlands and descendants of people who have lived in the Netherlands. Defining the Dutch as an ethnic group if very difficult and as a historian I am much more comfortable with Dutch, when used to refer to people instead of used to refer to the language or as an adjective, being defined as "people who live, have lived or are descended from people living in the Netherlands. I also think that that is really the way the term is used in the textbook "Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden" as that is a book about the history of the low countries, including Belgium and Luxembourg. Moreover, it should ease some of the fears of this page being used by people with a right-wing agenda. Skeptic77 02:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments

message: User Rex Germanus removed citecheck and copyedit tags. The copyedit is necessary because of the poor quality of the English in places, and the poor structure in especially the stereotypes section. The citations need to be checked, for reasons explained in the February deletion list above.Paul111 12:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think a local message for the stereotypes section would serve your goal better; more precise and less work; which may be a better incentive for editors to take up the challenge. Arnoutf 12:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The tag indicates that some citations need checking. The reasons are indicated in the February deletion list. The article has been edited in a piecemeal fashion, even aside from the edit conflicts, sections overlap, and it needs a rewrite. Copy-editing is a minimum.Paul111 18:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of citecheck and copyedit tags 

message: There is a series of articles on diasporas, and since the section is getting bigger, it seems logical to move the content to a spearate main article. Some of the content on Dutch influence could go there too.Paul111 12:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: sounds like a fair enough idea, that would take out some of the disagreements whether to call historic migrants still Dutch for example. Arnoutf 12:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Move Dutch diaspora to separate article

message: I propose that this section be moved, not so much because of its length, but because the content is specific and unrelated to much of the rest of the article. It doesn't fit, in other words. A one-paragrapgh section and a 'main article' link to the new article, would suffice.Paul111 18:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose you discuss matters in openend sections before you start yet another one.Rex 20:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move stereotypes and image section 

message: I propose to remove from the article most material describing the Netherlands state and the activities of the Dutch East India Company, because they are not attributable to the Dutch as ethnic group, people, or nation. They belong in other articles, mainly in History of the Netherlands. This article often confuses the Dutch people, Dutch society, and the Dutch state - this is a general problem at ethnic group articles. (The attribution of individual actions to an entire ethnic group is also disputable. "The Dutch" did not paint van Gogh's paintings: he did.)Paul111 11:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we could shorten the description sections. Also the refereence to the VOC maybe shorter. I have to say though that the sections on the monkey, Japan etc. do justice to the article as they give an outside view on the typical Dutch ethnic group of that time through the eyes of other cultures. I think those should stay (even if that means we have to keep a bit on the VOC to introduce why the Dutch were in the far east in the 16th century). Arnoutf 11:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I think Paul111 only wants to limit the elaboration on non Dutch ethnic group decription of the Netherlands where unnecessary and better placed elsewhere; I do not believe he proposes to delete mentioning VOC where it serves this article. Arnoutf 12:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no evidence that all Indonesian Eurasians are of Dutch descent. The "European" population in the Dutch East Indies was (as the term implies) not exclusively Dutch, and included for instance many Germans. Similarly, there is no evidence that the VOC (East India Company) crews and staff were exclusively Dutch, and some evidence that they were not mainly Dutch at all. The influence of the VOC on Asian history can not be atributed to an ethnic group as a whole. Such attributions are un-historical: most of the 'Dutch people' never went to the Indies, or the Cape Colony, and never worked for the VOC.Paul111 12:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Netherlands as state or Dutch people? 

message: Paul111s deletion lists are unwiki-like, and, more importantly, filled with false claims and purposely (?) manipulated information. Hence, I have a new aproach in solving his problems. No longer will you make list paul111 (which you post on the talkpage and never valuably respond to) but you will post SUBsections (not new ones) below this one in which you will discuss whatever you think is wrong 1 issue at the time. Note that discussing means responding to others' comments, not just listing your opinion (and repeating it). If no problems are listen in 2 days. I'm going to remove the dispute template.
Rex 13:16, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The dispute template should not be removed so long as the content is still disputed, and so long as the Request for Comment is underway. For the disputed material, see the February deletion list above, and individual items on specific problems. There is no point in re-listing it all here, certainly not while the Request for Comment is still underway. If no third-party comments are receievd by the end of February, then it can be concluded that the RfC has failed.Paul111 13:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As long as you refuse to say and discuss what you dispute there is only you obstructing the writing of a good article. As said before your  "deletion list" (a name just dripping with wiki- good faith) are filled with a claims either sources or not in the article. You refuseto disuss matter. List your problems individually below or hold your piece. Rex 14:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Another thing, if Paul111 does not add any problems below, but still reverts my removal of the template, I will request a mediaton, as this is going to be sorted out one way or another.Rex 15:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: No they haven't. You only list problems, but when we make it very clear to you items on your lists aren't even in the article and when you refuse to discuss matters (please, no more claims of "endless discussions") then this is the only sollution. So, if you're planning to add any problems below, you'd better hurry, or else start preparing for a mediation. Rex 20:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Again you twist and turn but say nothing. Your lists, are full of claims that ARE NOT, and NEVER WERE in the article. You have less than a day listing your problems below. Rex 14:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New aproach in dealing with "disputed" claims 

message: The accuracy is still disputed and most of the disputed claims have been re-inserted. The main problems are explicit or implicit claims that Flemings and Dutch constitute one people, that this single Dutch people existed prior to the Dutch Revolt, the claim that the Dutch are a Germanic people, and inclusion of Flemish and Afrikaner populations in the table, leading to inflated population figures for the 'Dutch'.
To address these issues the following deletions are necessary:
*Dutch are a Germanic people: cited source (Britannica) does not say the Dutch are a Germanic people, and it does not say that speakers of Dutch belong to a Germanic people. It identifies the Germanic peoples as historically existing Indo-European peoples who later assimilated (by the Middle Ages). It does not say the Dutch are an Indo-European people, and it does not equate Indo-European language speakers with the Indo-European peoples. A map of Indo-European language distribution, for instance in the Britannica article on that subject, does not in itself show the ethnic groups in the area covered are either 'Indo-European' or 'Germanic'. Additionally, any descent from Germanic tribes does not make the modern Dutch "Germanic".
* Historically the Dutch chiefly lived in the Low Countries and Northern France but since the 12th century they have spread all over the world. No source for claim that a Dutch ethnic group ever lived in Northern France. No source for claim that a Dutch people existed in the 12th century. Inline reference refers to another section of this article itself, and is not an external reliable source, see WP:SOURCE. In any case, the book quoted in the Dutch diaspora article (Dik Linthout's Onbekende Buren) does not say that a Dutch ethnic group lived in Northern France, or that Dutch people existed in the 12th century.
* 30 million Dutch: the only source given for this figure is that some people believe that Flemish and Dutch are one people. Some people do, but they are a small minority, most of them to the right of Vlaams Belang in Flanders. That is not a sufficient source for a claimed population of 30 million ethnic Dutch.
*Indonesian Dutch in infobox table. No reference given for cited statistic, unverifiable. NIDI estimates in Demografie van de Indische Nederlanders, 1930–200 (Gijs Beets, Evert van Imhoff en Corina Huisman) a total of 458 000, including ethnic Dutch born in the Dutch East Indies, ("totoks").
* Flemings listed as Dutch in population table: no source. Cited CIA Factbook simply says that 58% of the Belgian population are Flemings. It does not say they are Dutch.
*5 million Afrikaners listed as Dutch in population table: no source. Also listed as related ethnic group: no source. Cited source simply says they are of partial Dutch ancestry. (Other ethnic groups in South Africa also have partial Dutch ancestry).
*Dutch in Australia - the cited source makes it clear that the 2001 census question records only ancestry, even in cases where the respondent does not identify with the ancestry.
*Dutch in New Zealand cited source refers to people with some Dutch ancestry. May even be an underestimate, but it does not say they are Dutch.
*Dutch Americans See cited source at US Census: the 2000 Census question asks: What is this person’s ancestry or ethnic origin? and does not indicate current ethnicity or national identity (which will be in most cases 'American').
*Figures for Dutch in France and Germany. Cited source is an evangelisation website, which does not quote any official source for its statistics. It is not a reliable source. (Reliable statistics for Germany should be available at the Dutch statistics office CBS).
*Burgher people of Sri Lanka listed as Dutch. No source. Cited source does not say they are Dutch, indeed specifically names them as "Dutch Burgher". They do not have Dutch citizenship, and do not qualify for it.
* Ethnic groups listed as Germanic in population table: no source for any modern group belonging to Germanic peoples.
*11,5 million people outside of the Netherlands consider themselves to have a considerable degree of Dutch herritage or ancestry and can hence be considered part of the Dutch ethnic group as they feel culturally connected. No source for this at all.
*Header Closely related ethnic groups. No source for this claim.
*Historically the modern Dutch and the people now known as Flemings were considered one people. Cited source, Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden, does not say what it is claimed to say: it does not speak of Nederlanders before the Dutch Revolt, (or from the time of the Franks). On the contrary, it consistently avoids the term Nederlanders until it treats the Dutch Revolt, and for the period before that uses the geographical term only, Nederlanden, in the plural, meaning Low Countries. In the introduction it states explicitly that the book is a history of a geographical area, Nederlanden. Request to quote the passage or provide a page reference for the claimed material in Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden did not lead to either being provided. Inline reference also claims that Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden speaks of Zuid-Nederlanders (approximately 'South-Dutch') especially in the period after the Dutch Revolt, implying a politically divided 'Dutch' ethnic group. It does not: it uses only geographic terms and names of geopolitical entities, such as 'Spanish Netherlands' and 'Austrian Netherlands', and the adjectival forms derived from these names. It does use the word 'Belgians' from after the 1830 secession. Additionally, non-usage of the term 'Flemish' does not show that the Dutch and Flemish were considered one people, and can not form a source for that claim. Cited source by Prof. P. C. Paardekooper is not an academic work, bit a 47-page pamphlet published in 1962, originally radio talks. At the time, during increasing language conflicts in Belgium, Paardekooper promoted a pro-Flemish, anti-Wallonian, anti-French, and especially anti-Belgian line, with an irredentist tone. He supported the controversial claim of the Flemish movement to control Leuven university, splitting off its French sections (later implemented). As a result, he was expelled from Belgium in 1962, when he tried to speak at the university. The uproar also lead to violent incidents, as French-speaking students clashed with police. Paardekooper was later expelled from Belgium again, on grounds of interference in internal affairs. He supported the Volksunie, and expressed understanding for Flemish volunteers who fought with Nazi Germany. Paardekooper is in no way a reliable, neutral, or authoritative source, for claims that the Dutch and Flemish constitute a single people. Additionally, link to this source links to a right-wing personal website (see elsewhere on this talk page).
*Dutch and Flemish see themselves as the closest related people. Cited source - page 21 of a Clingendael Institute study, in a section on the perception of similarity  - does not say this. In fact it says the the Dutch respondents saw the Belgians as the most similar people. It does not say that the Dutch and Flemish are related peoples or related ethnic groups, or that the perceived similarity is derived from a perceived shared ethnicity. The cited section does not use the word 'Fleming' or 'Flemish'. The report also does not say that the Dutch and Belgians are 'related peoples', or related ethnic groups.
* Afrikaners generally do not consider themselves to only be ethnic Dutch. Delete word only, it implies they do consider themselves to be Dutch. No source for implied claim that Afrikaners self-identify as ethnic Dutch. Occams razor suggests that Afrikaners are in fact Afrikaners, unless proved otherwise.
*Map of "Dutch" in present northern France. Caption and inclusion both suggest that 'Dutch people' formed the population of that area. Irredentist claim, no source for Dutch ethnic group in France at any time.
*Dietsland name for image: linked article has been renamed from 'Dietsland' to Greater Netherlands.
*the (future) Dutch were led by Germanic chieftains. Implies that a pre-mediaeval ethnic group were Dutch in some way, and implies a non-existent ethnic continuity. No source for the existence of 'future Dutch'.
* the Dutch now answered to the East Frankish and later German King, which continued until the Dutch revolt. Implies that a Dutch people existed at that time, i.e. before the Dutch Revolt. No source for existence of a Dutch people at that time.
*part of Choice of Leadership prior to the Dutch revolt: no Dutch at that time, and no evidence that earlier forms of government determined post-16th-century government of the Netherlands.
*Dutch invented golf - no source except another Wikipedia article, and no source for claimed  'Dutch' in 1297.
*In general, material describing the Netherlands state, and the activities of the Dutch East India Company, which are not attributable to the Dutch as ethnic group, people, or nation - unless a reliable source describes it as an activity or attribute of 'the Dutch' as a population group.
No source is required for the deletion of unsourced material, and no arguments are required, see WP:DELETE. The onus is entirely on the editors who want to retain material, to provide a reliable source for it. These points have been discussed already (at length), and no consensus has been reached. A cooling-off period also failed, since not all editors observed it, and disputed material was simply re-inserted. A  request for comment resulted in only one third-party comment (two comments by one person).Paul111 10:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: March 2007 deletion list

message: I propose to delete any use of the word 'the' from this article as any use of the word 'the'in English is only placed in extreme right wing pov sources. Arnoutf 00:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point.Paul111 11:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: delete the word 'the' from this article

message: User Rex Germanus claimed that Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden speaks of Nederlanders (Dutch) from the time of the Franks. He gave that as a source for his claim that there was a broader definition of Nederlanders Dutch in the past, applying to more than the present Netherlands territory, and that there was a 'Dutch people' before the Dutch Revolt. However, the book does not say what he claims it does. On the contrary, it consistently avoids the term Nederlanders until it treats the Dutch Revolt, and for the period before that uses the geographical term only, Nederlanden, in the plural, meaning Low Countries. In the introduction it states explicitly that the book is a history of a geographical area, Nederlanden, which had various names before the creation of the present nation-states fixed the terminology.
* The book explicitly refers to other population groups in the Middle Ages such as the Hollanders for inhabitants of Holland (in 1370, page 61) and Flemings for inhabitants of Flanders around 1300 (page 51). It does not use the name Nederlander for these groups.
* The book explicitly states that in the Nederlanden three languages were spoken.
*It says explicitly that the Nederlanden were formed by personal unions of monarchs, that around 1400 there was no common identity, and that individuals' loyalty was directed at their city and village, at most a prince or faction beyond that.Paul111 19:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The book uses both the terms "Dutch" as well as the "county-name". The 3 languages spoken in the Low Countries were French, Dutch and German. The book makes it very clear Dutch was more than dominant. Common identity is irrelevant, culture and language are sufficent to establish an ethnic group. Nationalism doesnt appear untill the french revolution. By that definition there were no ethnic groups prior to c1800 which is historical revisionism.Rex 19:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Wait that is NOT what we need. We need a term that translates (preferably uniquely) into Dutch; even if the original word in a Dutch tekst is not Nederland. For example both 'Cellar' and 'Basement' translate into the Dutch 'Kelder'. That does not say that you require Cellar if you want to talk about a Kelder. Arnoutf 19:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Please note that we carefully avoid talking about the Dutch nation (because of extreme rightwing connotations). Also myself (and I think Rex as well), would like to use a fluent definition of ethnic groups. I said it jokingly above, but I really would not mind if the Surinam Dutch people were counted among the ethnic Dutch (which would be not thinkable of in the 1500's). PS I think the united Netherlands of the pragmatic sanction may have had a chance for survival (barring the Dutch revolt), but I have a hard time believing the united kingdom was ever a real possibility Arnoutf 20:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

text: Simply put there are two options. There were people in the Netherlands area that shoudl be acknowledged in the history section, in my version of the history called lowlanders, not Dutch. OR there were no human beings in te Netherlands and only in 1568 they where beamed in from an extraterrestrial intelligence. There are two possible opnening section of the history section. Either something like "No human-beings lived in the Netherlands prior to 168, but suddenly in 1568 there was the Dutch revolt". OR something much like my introduction. Paul111, make your pick.Arnoutf 00:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I think this all about where we start the counter; and how you define identity. They things in common: common language, common part of the Holy Roman Empire, common religion. Arnoutf 16:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Can you list a modern academic historian giving a datee when the Dutch ehtnic group appeared? I doubt it; perhaps because these issues are trivial to the academic debate. (I challenge you to provide a modern academic source making the case the world is round instead of flat). Anyway, all the article siad that the Dutch ethnic group evolved from the Batavian Netherlands (ie a gradual process), no exact date when they should be referred to as Dutch is given. Unless your arbitrary start of the Dutch revolt is taken. Now THAT is a bold statement which requires a modern academic source (the Dutch were not considered Dutch prior to 1568, but are after) Arnoutf 13:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

text: What I mean is that you cannot place a single date on the moment the Dutch became an ethnic group, just as much as in speciation you cannot say when homo-sapiens became homo-sapiens. I think the Dutch revolt is as arbitrary a boundary as any. There was some common culture: e.g. Karel ende Elegast, Reinaert, are typically medieval Dutch literature, is known both in Belgium and Netherlands; but hardly outside that region. I think that the evolution towards a single group was only completed in the early 19th century, but that early connections already started as early as Charlemagne. Arnoutf 21:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: No source for Dutch before Dutch Revolt

message: Please do not archive this so long as the issue is unresolved. On the issue of wheter Dutch-Americans should be included in the 'Dutch', see the original US Census question: at US Census. The question in the 2000 Census asks:
: What is this person’s ancestry or ethnic origin?(For example: Italian, Jamaican, African Am., Cambodian, Cape Verdean, Norwegian, Dominican, French Canadian, Haitian, Korean, Lebanese, Polish, Nigerian, Mexican, Taiwanese, Ukrainian, and so on.) - signed by ANON IP 
Most reported ancestries correspond to one existing state, but some (Scotch-Irish, Arab, Slavic) do not. Multiple reporting is possible, the largest single combination is 'Irish-German' . The Census question does not in itself provide a source for the claim that there are 5 million Dutch people in the US. It indicates what it says on the question, ancestry or ethnic origin.Paul111 10:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, the Dutch-Americans article question was settled, and to bring the Dutch-American issue must be supported to indicate direct Dutch/Netherlander ancestry. Most Dutch-Americans, except for any actual Dutch immigration going on today in the US, are sixth, 8th or 10th generation, and no longer have any ties or connection with the Netherlands. The Hudson Valley region of New York has plenty of Dutch colonial evidence, although the weak, small and vulnerable New Netherlands colony was taken over by the British long ago in the 1600's. However, you'll find thousands of "blue-blood" Dutch American billionaires and millionaires whom hailed from the region and discussed their awareness of direct Dutch lineage: the Roosevelts, Vanderbilts, Rockefellers and other Dutch-American Patrouns or Renesalers, but I believe Dutch and English or other ancestry intermingled to become oblivious of who's and what's Dutch, like street names in Albany and town names like "New Paltz, New York". Sometimes, American historians placed New Jersey, parts of Connecticut, a small section of Pennsylvania, eastern half of Maryland and Delaware in the historic New Netherlands colony (note there was New Sweden and New France that included the area what we known as the English Colonies of America in the late 17th and early 18th centuries). If you ever came across any Dutch cultural legacy (The New York state government documents was also printed in a local dialect of Platsduits until the 1930's when it's announced the language has gone extinct, after 300 years spoken and acknowledged in a small circle of people, maybe the "Dutch" elite in New York state), maybe the Dutch-American thing lasted longer than we thought. + 63.3.14.129 11:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree for the table, some referene somewhere in the article might be useful somewhere in the article though. ALong the linse of "Dont confuse American Dutch with Dutch. Am Dutch maybe descendents of Dutch emigrants, they are no longer part of the Dutch Arnoutf 00:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch-Americans 

message: I propose to delete this section, since it is the state that has a system of government, and not the ethnic group. The present Dutch ethnic group has no identifiable 'leaders' of its own. If the subject is not already covered adequately in History of the Netherlands, then the section can be moved to that article.Paul111 10:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the section was a bit overly detailed; however your deletion made it very weird. The section now opens with After the Dutch revolt the Dutch tried to find a new monarch at first, it was later decided the new form of government would be a republic.. This poses two assumptions that cannot be understood without some introduction: (1) The Dutch provinces were (part of) a monarchy at that time (2) During the Dutch revolt the monarch disappeared. Without any explanation introduction how the Low Lands became a monarchy, and how the monarch disappeared this makes no sense. Arnoutf 11:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

text: The section still does not belong in the article, it belongs at History of the Netherlands but without claims about a "Dutch" choice of government in the early Middle Ages.Paul111 15:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Simply put, the term Dutch only became accepted in the 20th century, delete anything before about 1930. The history is an essential part of the formation of the cultural identity of the Dutch, hence of relevance to this article. Arnoutf 00:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: I only say that the uptake of the name is not a reasonable starting criterion. We have the history somewhere. The effect of the Roman empire is still visible (e.g in Utrecht or Nijmegen) so that seems an option. Alternatively, the division in our current provinces was part of the governmental system of Charlemagne, I can accept we start there as well. I would not go to a later date as much of the current structures in the Netherlands (cities, windmills etc)  started that long ago.   Arnoutf 13:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Who is the "leader" of the present Dutch ethnic group? Pim Fortuyn seems to have had that status for a section of the ethnic group, but not for all of it. States have governments, governments have leaders, but they are the leaders of a state/government and not an ethnic group. There is no evidence that there is a specific preference for a type of leaders among the Dutch, distinct from that in neighbouring countries. The section does suggest something like that, and it is misleading.Paul111 19:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think the queen may qualify in this respect (much more than Fortuyn). Arnoutf 20:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Choice of leadership" 

message: No source has been given for the claim that a Dutch ethnic group lived in Northern France. The inline reference refers to another section of this article itself, and is not an external reliable source, see Wikipedia:Attribution. The book quoted in the Dutch diaspora article (Dik Linthout's Onbekende Buren) does not say that a Dutch ethnic group lived in Northern France, or that Dutch people existed in the 12th century. The claim is original research. Wikipedia policy says that material counts as original research if it:
* introduces an argument without citing a reliable source who has made that argument in relation to the topic of the article;
No such source has been provided, and the claim is irredentist. Flemish was widely spoken in parts of northern France, and the Flemish movement opposes its disappearance, but only a tiny minority within the Flemish right thinks that its inhabitants are or were part of a Greater Dutch ethnic group. The article would wrongly present their views as fact if it said that "Dutch" inhabited northern France.Paul111 15:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Artios spoke flemish and was part of the 17 provinces (e.g. Atrecht=Arras), the first succession of the Holy Roman Empire and the French Crown by Charles V. IMHO enough reason to discuss this here. Arnoutf 00:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: If the pragmatic sanction separating the 17 Netherlands is mentioned than Artois should also be mentioned. Anyway, Artois and Flanders are about equally Dutch (ie both are not), since they were both part of the 17 provinces but remained under Spanish control. I think the notion is worthy of mentioning in a single byline. I do not think this is a major issues though. Arnoutf 13:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No ethnic Dutch in northern France 

message: I added a reliable source for the approximate numbers of Dutch people but it was deleted (without discussion). Here is the section in its original form:
In the 1950's (the peak of Dutch emigration) about 350 000 people left the Netherlands, mainly to Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and South Africa. About one-fifth returned Since 1960 4,2 million immigrants entered the country. About one-quarter were returning Dutch migrants. The total amount of emigrants was 3,2 million, of these about half born in the Netherlands. Han Nicolaas. Nederland: van immigratie- naar emigratieland? Central Bureau voor de Statistiek,  This is half of the total 6,5 million emigrants NIDI Atlas  since 1865. 
The maximum emigrant stock for the 1950's is therefore about 300 000 (some have since died). The maximum emigrant stock (Dutch-born) for the period after 1960 is 1.6 million. Discounting pre-1950 emigrants (who would be about 85 or older), at most around 2 million people born in the Netherlands are now living outside the country. Combined with the 13 million autochtoon inhabitants, Autochtone population at 01 january 2006, Central Statistics Bureau, Integratiekaart 2006, (external link)  there are about 15 million people who are Dutch, in a minimally accepted sense.
No source of any kind was given for the figure of 30 million. It is own research,in fact it is an unpublished synthesis of published material. Wikipedia policy says:
:Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, that would be an example of an unpublished synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and it constitutes original research.[1] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article.
There are millions of Flemings and Afrikaners, and there are statistics on how many, but simply combining then into "Dutch" is wrong and controversial. It is the view of a minority within a minority, an obscure variant of Greater Netherlands irredentism. Again this is an example of far-right views being presented as fact.Paul111 16:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here I agree, this needs cleansing. Arnoutf 00:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Total of 30 million Dutch 

message: The infobox table gave an untraceable report as source for a figure for what were claimed to be Dutch Eurasians. I found a reliable figure of 458 000 in a NIDI study, Demografie van de Indische Nederlanders, 1930–2001 (Gijs Beets, Evert van Imhoff en Corina Huisman).  However, it does not refer solely to 'Eurasians' but includes the children of Dutch expatriates who were born in the Dutch Indies. It gives detailed estimates to differentiate the groups, but it can not however be added to the CBS total for 'autochtonen' because of definition problems, see the article itself.Paul111 16:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting issue. IMHO all should be included into Dutch peoples, but our article on Dutch people should include a more elaborate section on Dutch from the colonies. I think explanation in a secion rather than deletion would be the way forward here. Arnoutf 01:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch Eurasians 

message: Again the deleted text is an example of original research because it
*introduces an analysis or synthesis of published facts, opinions, or arguments without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article. (What is original research?).
It does not say anywhere in the cited Australian report, that the tabulated census respondents are "Dutch" or belong to the Dutch people, or the Dutch ethnic group. It lists responses to an ancestry question, see the details at the cited paper.Paul111 16:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some reference to recent emigration maybe of interest and should be discussed,  but many of them are not longer Dutch Arnoutf 01:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch in Australia 

message: The cited source refers to people with some Dutch ancestry, it does not say they are Dutch. There are Dutch people in New Zealand, but they are first-generation immigrants (from the 1950's onwards). The Dutch diaspora article is the proper place for this.Paul111 19:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some reference to recent emigration maybe of interest and should be discussed,  but many of them are not longer Dutch Arnoutf 01:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dutch in New Zealand

message: The cited source is an evangelisation website, which does not quote any official source for its statistics. It is not a reliable source. Reliable statistics for Dutch nationals in border regions  of Germany and Belgium are available at the Spatial Planning Bureau, , press release . There are 59 000 Dutch nationals in the Belgian border region, see map at [], and 41 000 in the German border areas. These figures should be used.Paul111 19:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, please use the correct numbers. Deletion while you have the correct figures is not very constructive. Just substitute with reference. Arnoutf 01:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Figures for Dutch in France and Germany

message: Burgher people listed as Dutch, but cited source does not say they are Dutch, indeed specifically names them as "Dutch Burgher" and not as Dutch. Despite the name, burgher translates as 'citizen', they do not have Dutch citizenship, and do not qualify for it. Move to Dutch diaspora article.Paul111 19:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: some reference maybe suefull tough, although they are not Dutch Arnoutf 01:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Burgher people of Sri Lanka

message: 11,5 million people outside of the Netherlands consider themselves to have a considerable degree of Dutch heritage or ancestry and can hence be considered part of the Dutch ethnic group as they feel culturally connected. No source for this at all. This is simply own research, and again it is at best the view of a tiny minority who still adhere to the Whole-Netherlands ideology. There is no evidence whatsoever of 11 million ethnic Dutch living outside the Netherlands.Paul111 19:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, this needs a source as it is highly speculative. If no source is provided it should be removed. BTW this goes for the next line I quote However, it is fairly uncommon in the Netherlands to see anyone beyond the second generation Dutch immigrants as fully Dutch.[citation needed] Hence there is somewhat of a gap between the "legally Dutch" and the people culturally attached to the Dutch. As well Arnoutf 01:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Culturally connected Dutch

message: Again a source which is reliable in itself has been used to wrongly synthesise a claim that the Dutch and Flemings see each other as a related ethnic group or related people. The cited report does not use this terminology. It speaks of the "perception of similarity"  and says that the Dutch respondents saw the Belgians as the most similar people, the cited section does not use the word 'Fleming' or 'Flemish'. It certainly does not say that the perceived similarity is derived from a perceived shared ethnicity, and the Clingendael Institute would probably not publish any report which did.Paul111 19:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Euhm seeing and perceiving are more or less synonyms. Ok, perhaps Belgiium vs Fleming is not supported by the report; but I thin kthe perception is not a problem. Than next question: what was the item used. Belgium or Fleming? I agree if Beglium was asked for that is dissimilar from the conclusion. The solution would  be a simple rephrasing (replace Fleming for Belgium) deletion is over the top.  OF course Flemings maybe considered even closer but without a good source that claim should be tuned down. Arnoutf 01:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Perception is part of thinking. Similarity and related (in the case of social groups) is a closely related term. Every scientific article asks for future research (ie Einstein theories probably asked for empirical evidence in future research). That is the way science works - you put the best possible evidence available, but acknowledges weaknesses in the theory that need to be explored further. Arnoutf 20:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dutch-Belgian similarity

message: The caption and inclusion both suggest that 'Dutch people' formed the population of that area. Irredentist claim, no source for Dutch ethnic group in France at any time. A previous compromise on the caption was reverted.Paul111 19:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the map does not provide any information beyond the issue that Artois was once but no longer counted among the Netherlands, I agree the map should be deleted. Arnoutf 01:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Map of "Dutch" in present northern France

message: The image is an older version and retains the name of the article for which it was presumably created, but the linked article itself has been renamed from 'Dietsland' to Greater Netherlands. The image seems to be a version of an image circulating on (among others) the website of the irredentist Marcel Bas. The name is only in use on the far right, especially in Flanders.Paul111 19:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree; in this article the second part of the caption can be removed as thas adds nothing to the first wiki;ink in the caption. Arnoutf 01:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dietsland name for image

message: I reverted yet another edit by Paul111 because we are still debating his various suggestions and I do not think we should move on before we have reached at least some agreement.
That being said, I did make an edit to one of the footnotes about the Flemings being considered to be Dutch, pointing out that most Dutch and Flemish consider themselves to be separate groups, instead of just having it stating that this notion is widely shared by people who believe in the Greater Netherlands or even unification. After all, that is tantamount to saying that it is shared by people who share this notion, which adds absolutely nothing, and leaves it up to the reader to find out that this group is actually quite small. Unfortunately, although I know this to be true from daily experience (many Dutch don't even consider people who actually have the Dutch nationality to be Dutch), that can't serve as a source, so I think we should work on that. I think we could improve this article by finding some kind of scientific survey or study about how people think and feel about the Dutch. Although some references refer to studies that sound as if they are about such issues, I'd need to study them before being able to decide if they are actually scientific.
I agree with Paul111 up to a point, this article should not be made to further the causes of right-wing people, it should be encyclopedic and as neutral as possible. But careful reading of the article makes it -very- clear that such notions are held by minorities and that although people descended from the Dutch may feel a connection with the Dutch, this does not conform with the view of the Dutch themselves. Moreover, the fact that right-wing politicians and such have ideas along these lines also makes it important enough for an encyclopedic article to refer to these notions in order to point out that these are not shared by many people but are in fact contrary to popular consensus. Otherwise people reading such claims may mistakenly believe that these are based in science or held by many other people. Moreover, there -is- a shared history between the Dutch and the Flemish and during 1815 and 1830 the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg were all part of the United Kingdom. We would do well to find a good, neutral approach.
Finally, I also feel we should make a clear distinction between ethnic Dutch (autochtoon), the Dutch as a nationality and the Dutch as a larger group of people including people of Dutch descent abroad or people with a shared common ancestry. It appears to me the terminology could be improved. Skeptic77 13:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul111 made multiple edits to the article, despite there being an ongoing discussion about various claims made by him. I reverted his edits, but I may have done so in an incorrect way. Mea Culpa. Will try to rectify that in a bit. If Paul111 would just stop editing the article until we can at least reach some consensus, then we won't have to revert everything every five minutes. This is called an edit war and it is -not- productive, it will only lead to annoyance. Skeptic77 13:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both edits have now been corrected. Skeptic77 14:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverted yet another edit by Paul111 

message: User Skeptic77 removed recent official figures from the infobox table, specificaly the figure of 59 000 Dutch in the Belgian border region and 41 000 in the German border areas. For both of these the source is tha Ruimtelijk Planbureau []
The user states at his own talk page, that it is not possible to change previous editors work, except by reverting all previous edits. This is not correct. The proper course of action is to go through the entire article, and edit only what is contested. This means more work, true, but that is not a reason to throw out reliable sources - wwhose instertion was requested by other users.Paul111 13:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Paul111 made multiple edits to the article, despite there being an ongoing discussion about various claims made by him. I reverted his edits, but I may have done so in an incorrect way. Mea Culpa. Will try to rectify that in a bit. If Paul111 would just stop editing the article until we can at least reach some consensus, then we won't have to revert everything every five minutes. This is called an edit war and it is -not- productive, it will only lead to annoyance. Skeptic77 13:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Both edits have now been corrected. Skeptic77 14:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of sources for population

message: I checked the text of Geschiedenis van de Nederlanden and it does not speak of Zuidnederlanders in the section on the Belgian Revolution. I added this to the section on Flemings to clarify the position, and to emphasise that it was the Belgians themselves (Flemings and Walloons) who seceded. The Flemish were not forced into a Francophone state, they left a Dutch-speaking state with which they apparently did not identify. And still don't.Paul111 16:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I like this version. However am not sure about the last line. It does not have a reference and gives a very strong opinion. I would make the line slightly different: After the Belgian independence, the governmental practice in the new state was mainly Francophone; which disadvantaged the speakers of Dutch. This became a major factor in the rise of the Flemish movement. Arnoutf 16:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New text on Flemings

message: I added the country totals from DEMOS, 21, 4. Nederlanders over de grens, 
Han Nicholaas, Arno Sprangers. . Joshua Project is not a reliable source, it is an evangelisation website which does not quote any official statistical sources for its figures.Paul111 12:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You are not the one who determines what is and what is not a reliable source.Rex 13:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also your new "superior source" only seems to deal with post WWII migration, specifically, the numbers it provides concern people born in Netherlands. This article goes beyond that.Rex 13:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You know what Paul111, I'm getting really fedd up with you. I've explained to you numerous times what the figure of "flemings" represents, the info box has an excellent note of what it lists which concern Dutch americans and Afrikaners. Read it, and quite repeating yourself.Rex 15:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As said before, your sources only speak of Dutch people abroad, who were born in the Netherlands. They are incomplete for this article. Rex 20:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A further issue: the source appears to be (from the provided link) to be non-English language.  Non-English language sources are discouraged on the English Wikipedia, particularly if an equally reliable English language source exists. -Fsotrain09 02:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In general I agree however, not all official Dutch government numbers are provided in another language than Dutch. These are the most reliable numbers around, so for these kind of articles (ie articles related to a country that is not English speaking), inevitably non-English sources will be quoted. As implied in you statemetn, the quality of the information goes beyond the preference for English . Arnoutf 08:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  New population statistics 

message: Here are the statistics from official sources, in most cases for Dutch nationals, but only the Netherlands has official statistics on  - or approximating to - Dutch ethnicity.
*Belgium. 121,489, of which 59 000 in border region. Belgian migrational statistics,  and Ruimtelijk Planbureau []
*Germany: 114 087, of which 41 000 in border areas. Resident foreigners at end 2004, by Dutch nationality. Bundesministerium für Arbeit und Soziales Ausländische Bevölkerung nach ausgewählten Nationalitäten. . Ruimtelijk Planbureau []
*Canada. 120 000. 210 000 emigrants since the Second World War, after return migration there were 120 000 Netherlands-born residents in Canada in 2001. DEMOS, 21, 4. Nederlanders over de grens, Han Nicholaas, Arno Sprangers. 
*USA. 110 000, Dutch-born, 2001, Figure 3 in  DEMOS, 21, 4.
*UK. 40 000, DEMOS, 21, 4.
*Australia, circa 85 000, DEMOS, 21, 4.
*South Africa. 40 000 to 45 000, Dutch nationality, 2004 estimate of the Netherlands embassy in South Africa, quoted in DEMOS, 21, 4.
*New Zealand. Circa 25 000, DEMOS, 21, 4. 
*France. Circa 30 000, DEMOS, 21, 4.
*Switzerland. 16 143. Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft, Bundesamt für Migration. Ständige ausländische Wohnbevölkerung nach Staatsangehörigkeit, 12/2006. .
Paul111 20:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As said before, your sources only speak of Dutch people abroad, who were born in the Netherlands. They are incomplete for this article. Rex 20:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A further issue: the source appears to be (from the provided link) to be non-English language.  Non-English language sources are discouraged on the English Wikipedia, particularly if an equally reliable English language source exists. -Fsotrain09 02:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In general I agree however, not all official Dutch government numbers are provided in another language than Dutch. These are the most reliable numbers around, so for these kind of articles (ie articles related to a country that is not English speaking), inevitably non-English sources will be quoted. As implied in you statemetn, the quality of the information goes beyond the preference for English . Arnoutf 08:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Population by country

message: User Rex Germanus removed  tags from the following points:
*The main difference between the modern Dutch and Flemings is their political development and situation since the Belgian Revolt. There were substantial differences before that, that is one reason why there was a Belgian Revolution. Claim is biased and needs a source.
*There was little political contact between the Dutch and Belgian governments until the Second World War. Very strange claim, needs a very good source. (During the First World War, up to one million refugees from Belgium lived in the neutral Netherlands).
*In pre-christian times the (future) Dutch were led by Germanic chieftains who were both political and religious leaders Issue discussed above at separate section.
*the Dutch now answered to the East Frankish and later German King. Existence of "the Dutch" at that time needs a source, see section on 'Dutch before the Dutch revolt', above.
*sports which are most likely invented by the Dutch. Dubious claim, as such claims often are, needs a source and not just a link to another Wikipedia article.Paul111 13:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of citation-needed tags

message: Though often suggested by Paul111, these claims, or anything similar, are not found in the article. The articles infobox makes it very clear that, and I qoute: "the figures below do not always differentiate between full Dutch ethnicity, descent or heritage.". So unless Paul111 is going to deny (with sources naturally) that Afrikaners, Dutch Americans, etc. have no Dutch herritage or ancestry then this should be considered solved. The case of the Flemings is somewhat more complicated, though not very much. If you read the article and look at the info box you'll see that it explains the Flemish situation and the info box includes them as "Flemings", not "Dutch people living in Belgium" which should give most readers (except the ones who purposely blind themselves) an indication that it's a special case.Rex 15:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Infobox describes the listed populations as Dutch. If the infobox sub-text is amended to say clearly that it includes populations which are not part of the Dutch ethnic group and not part of the Dutch people, then the problem could in theory be resolved, but then the infobox would contradict itself. Additionally, the infobox total as it now stands, includes all or most of the populations listed. In other words, they are being all being treated as Dutch, and there is no source for the claim that Afrikaners, for instance, are Dutch. The figure is therefore inflated, by a factor of 100 in South Africa, where the netherlnds embassy estimates 40-45 thousand Dutch residents. The Dutch diaspora article is the proper place for content on groups with Dutch ancestry. This figure must give the actual number of Dutch, with no inclusion of non-Dutch Dutch-descent groups.Paul111 19:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The infobox lists the Dutch ethnic group, and if it says otherwise it would contradict itself, see item above.Paul111 19:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You know exactly what the info box lists. This section concerned manipulative behaviour on your part.Rex 20:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Allegedly claiming Flemings, Afrikaners, Dutch Americans, etc. are (full) ethnic Dutch

message: It was suggested by Paul111 that a link to the CIA worldfactbook was mis-used to claim that the Flemish are Dutch. This is incorrect, as (and this has been explained to Paull111 many times before) the CIA source is used solely to determine the number of Flemish living in Belgium. Reasons why some people include them and the Dutch in the same ethnic group can be found elsewhere in the article.Rex 15:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The infobox lists the Dutch ethnic group, and if it says otherwise it would contradict itself, see item above.Paul111 19:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You know exactly what the info box lists. This section concerned manipulative behaviour on your part.Rex 20:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Alledged CIA source for Flemings being Dutch

message: The two sports that are aimed at here are Golf and Ice Hockey, which are likely (and the first one most likely) to be invented by Dutch. 
Rex 16:27, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a source for itself, see Wikipedia:Attribution. Golf is claimed to be a Scottich invention and hockey is attributed to "the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Irish, the Scots and the Indians of South America".  Such claims are often no more than trivia. A reliable source is needed.Paul111 20:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sports invented by the Dutch

message: This source says the following about the earliest Dutch people: 
::De ontwikkeling van een Nederlands volk begon met de vestiging van Germanen in het noorden en ging in de 3de en 4de eeuw na het vertrek van de Romeinen door met de komst van de Franken.
::(English:The developement of the Dutch people started with the arrival of Germanic tribes in the 3rd and 4th century, after the retreat of the Romans due to the arrival of the Franks.)
It then continues:
::Pas in de loop van de 7de eeuw vestigden vooral Frankische nieuwkomers zich hier in permanente nederzettingen. Het Nederlandse volk stamt min of meer van deze immigranten af.
::(English:In the course of the 7th century mostly Frankish immigrants establish permanent settlements. The Dutch people more or less decend from these immigrants.)
Rex 17:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the website of an infotainment programm presented by :nl:Jan Douwe Kroeske and featuring  :nl:Ron Brandsteder, :nl:Astrid Joosten and :nl:Patrick Lodiers.Paul111 20:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Teleac/NOT is a trustworthy source;  is paid by Dutch government (ie no commercial interest) but has its own editorial freedom (ie it is not state television in the sense that is broadcasting state views. The network provides both schooltelevision as well as high quality education broadcasts to the larger public. They consciously choose to use well-know presenters not be known as a stuffy history channel. The choice of presenters sais nothing about program quality, but about the broadcasting strategy. Arnoutf 21:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Germanic origin of the Dutch, Frankish ancestry

message: Template: has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. --Paul111 11:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  TfD nomination of Template:{{ucfirst:Infobox Ethnic group beta}} 

message: I would like to revisit the proposal of a truce in this edit-war. I feel that it is the best way to work things out. We can just -discuss- things and only edit after we've (hopefully) reached an agreement.
I think it is stupid to just keep editing each other's work, revert, etc. In the end, it makes it harder to accomplish anything, because people keep blocking other people's work, new people can't contribute, because they see their work is being undone anyway, so we end up with a page which just is not satisfactory to anyone.
Why don't we try this for a week or two and then evaluate how that goes. Perhaps we can work out some kind of compromise. Skeptic77 13:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please sign your contributions. If you want to propose a compromise text, then why not do just that?Paul111 10:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

text: If nothing is proposed, then there is nothing to talk about. However, the issues have been discussed for months now without any sign of a compromise version, and you are correct to assume that it is unlikely.Paul111 15:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  How about a truce? 

message: I added a section on this issue and the political connonations. The cited report lists more background material on the German Westforschung. The added text is as follows:Paul111 10:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Germanic roots of the Dutch 

message: The previous version (of about 6 weeks ago), a copy-edited version, should be restored, the replacement has many errors. I mean this version:Paul111 16:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds fine with me, I thought you were the person who most actively objected to above version. Arnoutf 16:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section 

message: I removed the items on the position of the Dutch language in Belgium, Belgian troops in the First World War, and the IJzerbedevaart. They belong in the articles on Belgium and Flanders, not here. No source was provided for the claims that
*There was little political contact between the Dutch and Belgian governments until the Second World War. 
*Currently the ratio between the Dutch and the second largest ethnic group is 33 to 1, in Belgium it's 1,8 to 1.
*Historically this meant that the Flemings experienced a great deal of ethnic/cultural awareness, while being separated from their closest related group of people.
*Many Flemings hold to the stereotype that the Dutch, opposed to themselves, are mostly Protestants.
Historical content in the section on Flemings is duplicated in the History section. That is the proper place for it, the Flemings section shoul refer to the History section for historical backrgound.Paul111 10:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section on Flemings 

message: Hi all, I noticed the current Dutch people infobox only mentions Frisian people as a related group. There is no problem there, as the Frisians name the Dutch (a.o.) as a related group. Here we have symmetrical relation (i.e. both are related, hence they refer to each other). However, looking at Flemish people I notice that the Dutch are mentioned there, while the Flemish are not in the Dutch infobox. That is asymmetrical, and thus imho weird. I would suggest we add the Flemish to the related groups (or convince the Flemish to delete the Dutch), only to restore consistency.
On a more general point I, do you think it would be a good thing to discuss this at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups to make into a guideline that only symmetric relations should be entered. Ie, add X people as related in box of Y, then also add Y as related in the box of X. Or would that lead to POV forks (to sound that out I put it up here first). Arnoutf 12:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not asymmetrical, but just bias by Paul111. He's infact contradicting himself as he does claim the Dutch and Flemish see themselves as the most closely related. I've hence adapted this. Rex 16:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think there is no mal intent, just something weird and inconsistent. Arnoutf 18:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

text: As you know I disagree; besides language other relations exist: culinary (beer / chips), cultural [-especially literary (well yes linked to language but still) but also painting]. But then again, what is a relation? But I can live with it this way, just hope that if another consensus will develop e.g. on the Flemish people page, you will accept the relation here as well Arnoutf 14:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

text: PS. From your action I gather that you agree with the symmetry argument.
Culinary is not ethnic. Literary is not ethnic. Cultural similarity is not ethnic. The infobox implies an ethnic relationship: where is the evidence of that foir the Dutch and Flemings? (In terms of ancestry, the greatest overlap is between Flemings and Wallons, because of internal migration within Belgium). The simplest option is to leave out the 'related' line in the infobox, and cover culture in the text.Paul111 11:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Your argument goes back to the narrow genealogical definition of Ethnic Group. And even there there will be some relationsships between the Dutch and the Flemings, probably similar as between Dutch and Germans. But I agree this will be not as close as Fleming-Wallon. I think a weak relation would suffice (i.e. I would accept relations with English, German, Fleming, anish, Norwegian, Swedish but also if these are separate Afrikaner, Surinam, Indonesian, Antillean (ie. the former Dutch colonies)). But that is a matter of defintion. As stated above; I can live with the narrow definition (for now); but my personal favourite would be a broader definition. I just hope that if in the future the consensus goes that way, you will accept that. Arnoutf 12:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Symmetry of relations

message: The "new" version of this article by Paul111 was not acceptable. I would have thought the article wouldn't change much in the time I "was away" but I was wrong, and Paul111 took full advantage of the situation. His new version was crammed with POV, wrongly used sources and a lack of the latter in some places.Rex 16:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Rex, I reverted your wholesale edit for much the same reason I reverted Paul111's edits a bit earlier on. These issues are discussed separately, the edits should be made separately with an adequate talk page argument and relevant edit summary. If this goes for Paul111, so it goes for you. Arnoutf 18:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Paul111s POV

message: Dear All, as Arnoutf recommended me to do so, I would like to explain at the talk page in more detail why I have removed the following allegation:
"Dutch antipathy towards Germans goes back to the early 15th century when Germans were seen as uneducated, grumpy, rude peasants who served as cheap labour to the wealthier Dutch.[64][65] Entire stories were published in which Germans were portrayed as inferior barbarians."
1) as for source 64: engelfriet.net (please take a look at the webside) is not a citable source but a family homepage => such source does hardly comply with the standard for the prove of facts on Wikipedia
2) as for source 65: my Dutch is rather bad but if I unstood it right the source refers not to Germans or Germany but to the historic origins of the word "mof" (actually used for people coming from Amsterdam). It is definitively undisputed that the word "mof" is used for Germans nowadays but that has actually nothing to do with the 15th century. By the way, in the early 15th century Germany does not even exist as a nation state as we know it now but was rather a religous conglomerate and, hence, nobody spoke of "Germans" in theses days but if at all about "Emsländer", "Bavarians", "Frisians", etc.
3) besides the fact that the sources are not citable respectively do not prove the allegation, please take a look on the wording ("grumpy", "rude", "served as", "inferior") and judge by yourself whether it complies with the standard tone of an encyclopaedia.
4) However, I think that the remaining two paragraphs refering to the relations between Dutchs and Germans do sufficiently and moderately descripe the situation:
"For many years, most recently since WWII, a strong animosity existed towards Germans. They were said to be rude, arrogant, noisy and intolerant and in fact most other antonyms of characteristics the Dutch pride themselves on. For many Dutch people it is not a question of "why" they dislike Germans, they just do. According to "The Xenophobe's Guide to the Dutch", "Telling a Dutch person that their language seems very similar to German is unlikely to benefit your relationship." It humorously adds: "Remarking that the two nations are similar in many ways will probably get you thrown out of the house."
Perhaps strangely, Germans are generally unaware of the fact that they are disliked by their neighbours and often think it is merely a soccer phenomenon, as this is when the anti-German feelings are most visible. The Dutch and Germans have had fierce soccer rivalry ever since the Second World War, even though the post war rivalry on Germany's side is actually a reaction on the behaviour displayed by the Dutch.[63]"
Please feel free to discuss!
Kind regards, (194.9.5.10 14:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: incorrect, needless and unacademic statement removed

message: I propose to change the name to Dutch (people) or something very similar. The name was unilaterally changed by one editor in the past, and that was one of the reasons for the edit disputes at this page. However, the main reason for the change is simply that it is a better name, and meets Wikipedia guidelines ("use the most general term"). The Dutch are both a nation and an ethnic group. The degree to which these overlap - the ethnic core of national identity - is disputed in the Netherlands. With a more general name, the article can cover that dispute, as it should. Please indicate your views below.Paul111 11:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More general name 

message: I suggest moving this out of Culture and Identity, since it duplicates material in the History section. Any non-redundant points can be pasted there.Paul111 11:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Duplicate content in Culture and Identity 

message: The recent addition of nation needs explanation in the article (or has to be reverted), for several reasons.
First. The title of the article is Dutch (ethnic group). Hence to state that it is about both ethnic group AND nation is weird. The article should first be renamed to Dutch people or to Dutch (ethnic group and nation).(notice there is no consensus on this, but that is another issue). Otherwise the addition is outright weird.
Second. The added line The 'Dutch ethnic group' and the 'Dutch nation' are synonomous for some people, but different for others. There is no consensus on this issue. holds no sensical content, because (a) it is not referenced; and (b) without any of the arguments or definitions by the unnamed some people / others there is no way to interpret the meaning of the line. Hence this line needs more explanation and a reference. Please provide this. Arnoutf 15:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A nation in this case means 'ethnic nation', the only other meaning it could carry is that of a Dutch nation, that is the Netherlands. I don't see what the fuss is. --Joffeloff 02:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is a (agreed small) difference between nation and ethnic group. The Habsbrug empire (state) for example contained many ethnic groups that we not necessarily all nations. IMHO both terms are often hihg-jacked by the far right wing politics; with ethnic group (as far as I know) being more often linked to racial issues, and nation more to nationalist issue. Both rejectable but clearly distinct. Arnoutf 08:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Etnic group and Nation

message: I moved the page to an unused title, similar but not identical to its former title. The previous change, limiting the scope of the article to ethnic group, was unilateral, and intended to give an advantage to one interpretation of Dutch and Flemish history. The article has been mis-titled for months, even though most people in the Netherlands never use the term "ethnic group" to describe themselves, it is in academic use only. Hopefully, the present title will allow editing to move forward, and to cover the prominent issue of national identity.Paul111 16:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are right in saying it is the only way forward, although there was no consensus on this move. I have strutured the terminology section into a more rigid definition section as (IMHO) that section is very important under this broader name. Arnoutf 17:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

text: You mean just like chimps and humans 99.7% similar I hope. I doubt whether in the long run two articles will solve this. Arnoutf 18:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: The page was not listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves and no discussion template was created. If these procedures are not followed, then I suggest the tag should be removed.Paul111 15:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  That is a non-argument at this time. You might have objected with that argument when it first occurred, several months ago; but as you did not, you apparently agreed. You cannot come with this now anymore. Arnoutf 18:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page renamed 

message: No source was provided for the claim that the Dutch are united as an ethnic group through the definition of AD Smith. (No book title was provided either). No definition or context was provided for the limits of 'Dutch' in this context.
There is no source given, and probably none available, for the claim that the cultural impact of christianity unites the Dutch into an ethnic group. Nor is the Dutch language the first language of all residents of the Netherlands, including many who self-identify as Dutch. European culture, by definition, is not the same as Dutch culture and can not in itself serve as a marker for a Dutch ethnic group. There is no source for the claim that a single Dutch culture exists, or that it is a unifying factor for the ethnic group. Thre is no evidence that Dutch customs and etiquette play any fundamental role in Dutch identity, and no source was provided for that claim.
No source was provided for the claim that emergence of the Dutch is difficult to determine. Most historians date the Dutch people to the time of the Dutch revolt. No source was provided for the claim that the Dutch language was spoken around 450, or that it emerged from Old Frankish. Old Frankish was extinct long before modern Dutch was spoken. There is no evidence that anyone in 450 spoke Dutch.Paul111 15:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What are you suddenly talking about? Above section makes no sense whatsoever Arnoutf 18:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch ethnicity 

message: The source given for the claim that Dutch was spoken in 450 is the forum at Onze Taal. The relevant item does not say that Dutch was spoken at that time and identifies the language group of the inscription in question as Germanic or West-Germanic.Paul111 16:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It does exactly that. The Sallic law proves that (Old) Dutch was written around 450, so unless you suggest the future Dutch were only able to write, but not speak (please source that though) stop this ridiculous behavior.Rex 18:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I think we should settle on Old Dutch somewhere in that period. No it is not modern Dutch, but neither is the 1930's Dutch. Language is an evolving thing. PS is there any evidence Dutch is spoken in 2007? Arnoutf 18:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no theory here. Old Dutch is Dutch nevertheless and it was first written in the Sallic law. End of discussion. Rex 20:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dutch spoken in 450? 

message: No source was provided for the claim that Leo Belgicus can be translated as Dutch lion. Wikipedia is not a source for itself, and I removed that claim from the other article anyway.Paul111 16:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Source has been provided.Rex 17:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: In other words Leo Belgicus translates to Netherlandic Lion. As Netherlandic is a synonym for Dutch it translates to Dutch Lion. Anyway, this is completely irrelevant here. Arnoutf 18:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: We already provided sources for that. Nederlandse Cultuur gemeenschap remember? On the other hand, when did anyone here see sources for your personal view? That Flemings and Dutch people were never one?!Rex 20:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Well I'm sure I included it so someone must have removed it. Maybe it was the same person who removed Flemings from the related peoples list?Rex 20:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Simply put, Leo Belgicus was first drawn in 1581, during the DUTCH revolt when the (now) Belgium provinces were revolting as part of that, so at that time these provinces were part of the DUTCH revolt, and hence DUTCH provinces. Anyway, this is still irrelevant for this article. Arnoutf 22:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leo Belgicus 

message: No reliable source was provided for the claim that there are 50 Germanic languages and that only Afrikaans (a Dutch semi-creol) is mutually intelligble with Dutch. Adding a further comment in a reference is not a source, and the cited website is a personal website, apparently intended to promote the association between the two languages. (If they are indeed fully mutually intellibible then they would, by definition, not be separate languages).Paul111 17:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliable source is ethnologue. Website on Dutch and Afrikaans suffices.Rex 17:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Ethnologue speaks of about 50 sep. Germanic language. The 2 links on Afrikaans provide the references for MI.Rex 18:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Ethnologue is a christian website (you didn't trust does now did you?) and I as a linguist would never use it as a source, and what it considers separate languages is insignificant. I also never said ethnologue claimed A en D were MI. On the contrary, I specifically told you that the 2 other websites did that. Rex 20:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: They are already in the article. Do it yourself, and while you're at it, try to translate your sources or they'll be gone tomorrow. Rex 20:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Dutch = 1, Afrikaans = 0.99162 does that answer your question?Rex 20:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Afrikaans and Dutch in the Germanic group 

message: I hereby ask paul111 to translate his mentioned sources to English, which is required here on the English wikipedia. I will remove all untranslated "qoutes" with 24 hours if Paul111 does not comply.Rex 17:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paul111s untranslated sources. 

message: User Rex Germanus removed citation-needed tags relating to the claims that 
the Dutch ethnic group is united by Christianity (it certainly is not), and by Dutch culture, and Dutch customs and etiquette (the last is very dubious). Citation-needed tags are intended to indicate to the inserting editor - in this case Rex Germanus himslef - that a reliable source is needed.Paul111 17:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Notice the "united by common" part. Dutch culture obviously makes people feel connected, hence it's called "Dutch" culture and most of the Dutch share (and historically definately) a common religion: Christianity. This all is so obvious it does not need a reference, as the information is merely stated and doesn't claim anything. Rex 17:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This goes pretty far, I dare you Paul111 to provide an ethnic Dutch relationship. We all agree DNA is not it, if you exclude culture, history, customs and religion then there is nothing left and we can only conclude there are no Dutch people whatsoever. Of course, the same can go for about 90% of  I think even you will agree that it is over the top to demand 90% of all ethnic people articles. Arnoutf 18:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Where does the article claim "this ethnic group is held together by Christianity "? Those kind of claims are indeed absurd, but don't forget to mention you made them up Paul111.Rex 20:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Aaah, this goes back to this. Now I start to understand you much better Paul. If you state there is only a Dutch nation but not a Dutch ethnic group; I agree with all your very narrow definitions, and problems with the Flemish. However, I do not agree that there is only a nation; actually I have more problems with a nation compared with an ethnic group. Arnoutf 23:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of citation-neded tags 

message: This user has re-inserted a number of disputed claims, most of which had been removed earlier or reworded due to lack of sources, in total perhaps 20 separate points. Some text qualifying his earlier edits was also removed or modified. Most of this relates to the disputed claims that the Flemings and Dutch constitute a single people, that this single "Dutch" people existed before the Dutch Revolt undetr that name, and that there has been a "Dutch" ethnic group or language since the early Middle Ages. No recent historical work takes such claims seriously. I therefore suggest a revert of all these edits (themsleves reverts) without replicating the long discussion on each point (see above on this talk page). The new section on ethnicity, can be retained, but without the disputed points from earlier versions of this article, which he moved there.Paul111 11:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edits by Rex Germanus 

message: Most of the controversy concerns the description of the Dutch and Flemings as a single people, with an alleged "Germanic" character, claims for the early (pre-1550) existence of this "Dutch" people, and inflated population figures and totals. Reason for removal is simply that no reliable source is provided.
*The Dutch are an Indo-European people: no source, cited source does not say this.
* They predominatly descend from various Germanic tribes: one cited source does say their ancestry is Frankish but is a heavily popularised web-page, other is personal website of the inserting editor and not a reliable source. Suggest move to section on Germanic roots, including material on connotations of 'Germanic',  and qualify by saying that not all ancestors were Germanic or Frankish.
*speak a Germanic language: Dutch. Hence they regarded to be a Germanic people. No source for this logic, cited source does not say this.
*25 million Dutch: no source
*Historically the Dutch chiefly lived in ... Northern France : no source for this controversial claim.
*since the 12th century they have spread all over the world: no source for controversial claim that "Dutch" existed in 12th century
*listing of Christianity as unifyng trait of Dutch, no longer true, no source
*United by common ancestry from various indigenous and migratory Germanic tribes: no source, Germanic ancestry plays no role in current Dutch identity.
*the Dutch language was spoken around 450 / The people who spoke the language did speak Dutch: no source, linguistically 100% inaccurate, no Dutch language at that time
*Of the about 50 separate Germanic languages today, only Afrikaans (a Dutch semi-creol) is mutually intelligble with Dutch: no source for this claim as such, source for the "50 Germanic languages" is Ethnologue, which includes others much more mutually intelligibale than Afrikaans, not clear anyway why this point is included here.
*Dutch ethnography ... do still consider the Dutch to be a Germanic people. Cited source says exactly the opposite. Remove this later addition, then the sentence is correct.
*this article only concerns the Dutch as an ethnic group and Dutch ethnicity. Not an attributable claim anyway, simply an editors view on the limits of the article.
*In a broader sense the number of Dutch people is much higher. This is when for example people who are claiming or reporting Dutch ancestry are included. This way the total number of Dutch totals at around 25 million people. No source for the total, or for the inclusion of any non-Dutch group as "Dutch".
*'Belgians' is contemporary Latin meaning 'Dutch': no source, cited source does not say this, or imply it.
*Linguistically the dialects of Dutch spoken in Belgium are all cross-border dialects which means that these dialects are also spoken in the Netherlands: no source, West Flemish dialects not all spoken in the Netherlands
*Limburgish listed as Dutch dialect: no source (it is Middle German). Undue weight to Flanders-Netherlands cross-border dialects, same applies to Netherlands-German border.
*Afrikaans, is mutually inteligeble with Dutch: no source, probably no more so than German. Undue weight to white Afrikaners here, since other minorites in South African also have Dutch ancestry and also speak Afrikaans.
*population total of 25 million in infobox: no source
*472.600 Dutch Eurasians: figure and claimed source ("1990 study") are untraceable, no title, author or url provided, cited source does not use this term Dutch Eurasian.
*inclusion of reported Dutch ancestry (green figures) as Dutch in infobox: none of the cited sources say these people are 'Dutch'.
*5,000,000 Dutch in South Africa: cited source does not say this, official source (embassy) says 45 000
*270,000 Dutch in Australia, cited source does not say this, official source says about 85 000
*100,000 Dutch in New Zealand, cited source does not say this, official source says about 25 000
*83,000 Dutch in France, cited source is unreliable, official source gives about 30 000.
*Dutch in Malaysia: no source, footnote is empty, figure does not seem exaggerated, but a source is needed.
*Afrikaners and Flemings listed as related ethnic groups in infobox: no source. Afrikaners are no longer seen in the Netherlands as related by ethnicity, relationship to Flemings is not 'ethnic' in character but cultural and linguistic.
Reverted to version of two days ago, before the spate of re-insertions, but kept a section on Dutch ethnicity, renamed to more accurate and neutral Dutch identity.Paul111 18:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have reverted you paul111. For all the reasons Rex G gave, and because his version was more referenced than yours was. I also want to say that it is a shame you tried and succeded in backstabbing him.213.125.116.112 10:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of controversial claims 

message: Anonymous user:213.125.116.112 changed/reverted several edits dramatically. However, (s)he also reverted a section largely written by me, to an earlier version in which I also made substantial contribution. The edit summary was adressing Paul111. However the change in that section were made by myself, and I think these should not have been reverted. Reverted changes were:
* addition of a source about religion in the Netherlands
* deletion of the number of Dutch speaking people, and that Dutch is a West Germanic language. Both are true and indisputed and very interesting in the language section or the Dutch language article. But are irrelevant here. For reasons of readability and parsimony only they should be deleted here.
* deletion of blonde hair / blue eyes. I checked the source (admitted Xenofobe's, but I think that may actually be an aceeptable in this case as we are talking stereotypes here, and that's what the guide is based upon), and could find no explicit reference to hair and eyes; as this is not essential for the subsequent argument, and not sourced I deleted it.
* In the Ethnogenesis section, I added a few lines that with the emergence of the Dutch nation midst 19th century, the process of Ethnogenesis has reached its end. I think this is obvious to all, but I am willing to discuss. My argument for addition is that. 
:* I agree with Paul111 that stating that the Dutch existed in 450 is ridiculous. so if we come to a compromise and give a time span in which Ethnogenesis occurred. We need a final date after which we can say without doubt that the Dutch etnic group has formed. I think 1830 would be a good date for that; as we all agree since then there has been more or less a status quo.
:* If we agree on a fairly late final, I think it would be a fair compromise also to adopt the first possible starting date of this process. In this case, the reference to 'the first roots'. The first language identified as Dutch (old Dutch) in 450, would then be a first possible starting point. 
:* If we write it like this we no longer say anything about Dutch prior to Dutch revolt, suddenly being there in 1584 or whatever. The section then states: Somewhere between 450CE and 1830CE the Dutch as an ethnic group emerged in the area. I think that is a fair compromise text. 
As all these edits were reverted with a ref to Paul111 (together with many more that were made by Paul111 but I stayed aways from those). I (blanket) reverted this section to my personal last version. Arnoutf 08:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Im sorry Arnout but I (and Im a he btw) want to see Rex version expanded. Not Pauls one. Do not think of me as biased, but I compared the too versions and think Rexs (and yours) is more referenced. I believe rex when he says that Paul makes up claims that aren't in the article and found it very sad that he had to backstabb (no need for euphemisms) that guy only to get his own version. I support the current version (an expanded version of rexs) and apologise for the revertion.213.125.116.112 10:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: No problem, cheers. Arnoutf 10:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Hi 194.9.5.10. You correcting me for calling you a sockpuppet made me much more carefull about that. To be honest, at first I though 213 might be a sockpuppet of Rex as well, but as his edit summaries where much more polite than any I have seen of Rex, I did not act upon that suspicion. Apparently my care was justified. Let's call my calling you a sockpuppet a mistake, from which I have learned. So no offense or double standard meant. Cheers. Arnoutf 13:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dutch ethnicity