Talk:Irving Plaza

message: This article needs a serious rewrite, it reads like a review/promotion. 24.151.79.108 00:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comment

message: It's now called The Fillmore New York at Irving Plaza, should it be moved? --AW 17:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah I guess so. I'll move it. kc12286 23:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this be moved? 

message: I'm wondering if the Select Performers section is wikiworthy. Thoughts? Sabrebattletank (talk) 00:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No one else has responded. I'm going to knock it out. That will hopefully stimulate some discussion! Wwwhatsup (talk) 09:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ah! I now see why there was a list. Started in 2006 to establish notability. See User talk:Kc12286 Wwwhatsup (talk) 18:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Select Performers 

message: I have twice reverted major edits by Capwilly on the basis that they remove sourced content and appear otherwise to be OR. I have written twice on his talk page explaining. I've had no response. He just made the edit for the third time. I do not wish to get into an edit war. Anyone else care to revert / comment? Wwwhatsup (talk) 18:39, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see a valid reason for Capwilly's removal of content. If they feel they have one they should bring it here. The content that they added may be worth including if it can be sourced, but I found no sources to support it by searching in Google/News/Books.--Michig (talk) 19:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I will say in Capwilly's defence that the 'Alexander Homme' reference does not seem particularly reliable, evidently mostly sourced in Wikipedia itself, it's a blog and he mixes up his centuries with regard to "Irving Theatre". However he does mention Rasiej, who was I believe the owner until selling out - I can't see any justification for his removal - and I note this wasn't in the later edits. I'm not disputing the truth of other Capwilly's edits, altho the Chris Williamson role does not jar with my memory. I ran the merchandising at the Big Audio Dynamite shows, I can't even myself remember how many there were - 5 or 16 - and similarly the source is a blog. But it is the best source a quick search turns up. I am sure that the facts can be established, hence my insistence on reliable sources. Capwilly obviously has an enthusiasm for the topic, I am hopeful he/she will understand the necessity and do the diligence. Wwwhatsup (talk) 22:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capwilly edits 

message: On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Capwilly <capt.willy@y****.com> wrote:
>  Not sure if you got this because I still do not see any reference to the facts which I brought up.  My edits to the Irving Plaza article are accurate and can be backed up, not only by the following references, but also by Eugene Kaleniak the President of the Polish War Veterens Association which owned and controlled the space. The New York Times, The Village Voice, Spin , The Aquarian , Interview , New York Magazine ,CNN,Timeout Magazine, and Newsweek. I would like to insert these Refs but I just don't know how to do it.   Ref #7 says that Andrew Rasiej started Irving Plaza in the 70's which is rubbish since he didn't have anything to do with the place until 1990 and in the 70's he was only a little boy. The same article referenced Heinrich Conreid as managing the venue in 1993 when in fact he died in 1903!  Ref #8 from the Village Voice describes Chuck and Andy Dunckley during their run in the place which was 1983 to 1984 but says nothin!
>  g about Big Audio Dynamite. Big Audio Dynamite played there for 16 nights in April of 1987, was promoted by Ron Delsener, Chris Williamson,and WKTU. Chuck and company were long gone. The venue was controlled by Rock Hotel Presents from 1986 to 1989. Ref #9 is written by some fanzine kid and only talks about the concert at Irving Plaza but does not mention Chuck, Andy,etc.,
> because they had nothing to do with it.   How is this stuff admissable? 
> Please, if you will, copy this email to the fellow trying to get in touch with me who originally complained about my edits. I just don't yet know how to reply and please help me get un-blocked so I can get this straight.
>                                                Thanks kindly,
>                                                        Capwilly
response:
Hi
I already made a couple of adjustments to the article. I think your point that the Homme reference is unreliable is sound, but you have to accept the further point that you can't change referenced material in Wikipedia without at least giving some kind of justification in your edit summary and, if someone disputes it, taking to the talk page. If a reliable source, or consensus, can't be reached then the material will have to bdropped from the article. In my opinion you are going to have a very hard job sourcing that Williamson promoted at Irving since, to my knowledge, he never did - only at The Ritz during this period. The correct way to proceed, if you are uncertain as to how to handle things like refs, again is to go the talk page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Fillmore_New_York_at_Irving_Plaza and edit it just like you would an article, and remember to sign your comments by writing Wwwhatsup (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I think his point about Rasiej is valid and will take that out right now. Wwwhatsup (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: email exchange 3/28

message: * ref: 
* IP closed June 6 1986
* Capacity 1000
* Chuck Terzella filed Chapter 11 in December 1985
* Amnesty International Concert cancelled
* Recent shows had lost money
* Terzella quote: I'm tired, and I can't fight it anymore.
Wwwhatsup (talk) 22:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: NY Times  'Irving Plaza Rock Club Closes for Lack of Rent' June 7, 1986

message: * Ref: 
* Quote: "Chris Williamson,35, a former manager of Studio 54, is now bringing hard-core music to the masses through his "Rock Hotel" shows, staged at the Ritz, with bands like Anthrax and D.O.A.; he's featuring New Wave bands in his "Rock Motel" shows at Irving Plaza."
Wwwhatsup (talk) 08:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: New York Magazine  "The Powers That Will Be"  Dec 22-29, 1986

message: * ref: 
* Capacity 900
* Delsener/Slater deal
** $500/show rent + bar
** Delsener covered band/promotion/insurance
** According to Rasiej: 
***deal negotiated on basis small venues are unprofitable yet
*** Delsener had made $250,000
*** IP had lost $250,000
* New deal with Metropolitan
** club could promote all of its own shows 
** 50% share of profits of any larger area show by graduate act
* First show under new deal 'Del Amitri' Sep 26 1995
* More varied program coming
* Delsener/Slater reputedly trying to shut IP down
* Rasiej quote "I broke the monopoly, and they're upset."
* New alternative rock bands graduating faster.
* Metropolitan lacking small venue since closing of Ritz
* Delsener losing Academy to theater.
* Performance mag NY editor notes IP improved sound and light systems 
Wwwhatsup (talk) 23:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: NY Times 'Rock Promoters Vie for Manhattan' September 26, 1995

message: * ref: 
Article goes into details of IP expenses, but is essentially to note the formation of the NY Nightlife Assn.
* New State Liquor Authority regulations introduced in 1994 + recent zoning regulations make establishment of new venues difficult
* Existings clubs like IP struggling. Typical show:  
** Sell out 1000 tickets sold @ $15 = $15,000 + Bar $1,000
** Band $5000, ads $3000, staff $1250 , security  $850, insurance $600, catering $620, $500 sound & lights, tickets $250, copyright $100. 
** split 20% club/ 80% band
* Self promoted shows.. Pay themselves $500 rent + 15% overall expenses before split.
* !Correction in article puts total budget at $15,203 with loss of $203
* 80% of shows don't sell out.
* Capital expenditures like AC can drive a club under
* Owner Bill Brusca is former manager at The Ritz
* 12 shows a month do not cover overhead =
** $15,000/mth rent
** gas, electricity, telephone, building insurance, maintenance and permit fees. 
* Other income:
** Coat check
** Merch cut 15%
** Record label after parties
** Sunday swing music nights
** Monday night 'Sugar Babies' dance parties
** Corporate events
** Graduate act deal with Metropolitan
** Rasiej operates 119 Bar 
** Rasiej part owner of Galaxy restaurant
** Digital Club Network investment from Apple / Intel
* Rasiej is cofounder New York Nightlife Association to protect interest of clubs
Comment: Sunday and Monday nights might justify 66% claim if they can be considered 'shows'.  Ref for Brusca ex-Ritz.
Wwwhatsup (talk) 23:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: NY Times 'An Endangered Species: Rock Clubs in New York' October 26, 1996

message: * Ref: 
This story explores the unusual situation of rivals Delsener/Slater & Metropolitan being forced to work together for the following 10 months, with the former promoting shows booked by the latter, and also being able to claim a portion of any other local show that features a band that had played earlier at IP. 
* Irving Plaza opened in 1992, booked by Delsener/Slater
* Acknowledged to be the best Manhattan Club of its size: Capacity 900 
* In 1994 Raziej and Brusca, unhappy with the deal, switched to Metropolitan Entertainment.
* New deal:
** IP could book its own shows.
** IP 'could claim' up to 50% of other Manhattan shows of bands that graduated from IP.
* Bands played:
** Jewel
** the Dave Matthews Band
** Sheryl Crow
** Prodigy
** Oasis
** Eric Clapton
** The Cure
** Melissa Etheridge
** Bob Dylan coming Dec 8
* On November 21 1997 'owners' sold 10 year lease and club name to Delsener/Slater Enterprises
* Price estimated at over $1m
* Licensing climate difficult making existing franchises valuable. Delsener had lost Academy on Times Square. 
* Metropolitan Entertainment retains exclusive booking rights until September 1998
* However Delsener also has 50% rights in 'graduate acts' Manhattan shows.
* Brusca stays as VP of Operations, Rasiej is moving on (Digital Club Network)
Comment: The word 'owner' can lead to some confusion in that it would appear to refer to the owners of a lease rather than the premises, and it would seem that lease included the right to use 'Irving Plaza as a name'.  It's not clear if what happened here is that Rasiej & Brusca just sublet, or actually sold their lease. Whichever way it included assigning over their deal with Metropolitan. In the article Rasiej says "now I've leased the space to them" - but it could be he's talking from the point of view of the real owners - the P.A.V.A.A. Brusca, incidentally, I believe, is a former manger of Te Ritz during the Jerry Brandt tenure - I could be wrong. Wwwhatsup (talk) 06:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  NY Times 'Concert Rivals to Run Irving Plaza'  Monday November 24 1997 

message: I mean there are mistakes concerning addresses and history in this article (two buildings are combinated). Irving Plaza has address 17 Irving Place. The old Irving Place German Theatre or Amberg´s Theatre had address 11 Irving Place or 118 E. 15th Street. So that it was located on the opposite corner of E. 15th Street and Irving Place – now there are Zeckendorf Towers. See: Cinematreasures
In history: "Built in 1888", "a Yiddish theatre, a burlesque house (ecdysiast Gypsy Rose Lee stripped here)", Amberg's German Theatre, all the paragraphs about years 1893 – 1939 are concerning the house 11 Irving Place or 118 E. 15th Street, not the Irving Plaza.
Later history of the house 11 Irving Place or 118 E. 15th Street:
The whole block was rebuilt to the warehouse S. Klein in 1962. In 1985 was the block demolished and replaced by the Zeckendorf Towers.
Dusan Hübl, Prague, Czech Republic, contact: hublovi@volny.cz  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DusanEsence (talk • contribs) 18:57, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Dusan. This clears up a point that has always confused me - how can a space that is evidently a ballroom ever have been a theater? I see there's a nice pic of the old Irving Place Theater here. If you want to have a go at editing - go ahead. Otherwise I will get to it later in the week.Wwwhatsup (talk) 18:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

text: It would be better if You will edit it. My English is not very good. Other photos of theatre: , . You can see change of name from "Burlesk" to "Follies" (Berenice Abbott) between 1937 and 1938 - Fiorello La Guardia. And for Your inspiration:  Czech Wiki.   --DusanEsence (talk) 16:32, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:   Thanks again for your valuable intercession.  Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, those photos show nothing - no identification of the theatre, no street signs to identify which corner.  Find a reliable source, and then you can do the split, if the source supports this contention.  So far, the sources in the article do not support it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:45, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  The Museum of the City of New York is not a reliable source? Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  There is only one photo which actually establishes that the Irving Place Theatre could not be Irving Plaza.  As of yet you actually do not have a reliable source for it -- but that photo is enough to convince me, so I've reverted my edits, and returned the two pages to the condition you left them in.  Next time, when there is a 5 month gap between a discussion and the change, you might consider mentioning it on the talk page, for those who weren't around for the initial conversation.I'm going off now to add the "copied" template that both articles require. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:55, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

text: It was stumbling on this  that actually galvanized me to action. Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that's the image that finally convinced me that you were correct, as I could clearly see "Irving Place Theatre" on the marquee, and the geography of it wouldn't allow it to be where Irving Plaze is now.   As I said on your talk page, I hope to look through your list of sources this weekend, and see what they have to offer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:12, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistakes in this article??