Talk:Ferrari P

message: (personal attack by anon editor removed)  Friday (talk) 16:39, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

message: I've had a stab at a template for racing cars (see template:Racing car) to summarise the usual data. I've used the F1 templates as a starting point and applied it to the  article. If anyone's got an interest in this, please have a look at the template and modify or suggest changes as appropriate. After a few people have had a go at it and we have something we're happy with we could start to use it more widely. Note that it's not meant to be specific to F1, by the way. Cheers. 4u1e 10:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Racing car template

message: Since this is Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia, I have edited the long-contentious discussion of 0846, the "lost" P3/4 in a way I believe to be NPOV.  Please feel free to copyedit this, but please do NOT mindlessly revert all of that text.  It was NOT encyclopedic.  The long Ferrari letter (which is disputed in its authenticity) especially did not belong here.  That's what REFERENCE tags are for.  I read Glickenhaus' entire pdf and much of the thread as well and attempted to distill it to a single paragraph for the average reader.  --SFoskett 20:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 0846 controversy

message: Is the picture of the 330 and 412 at Goodwood identical? Which one is it? - 17/1/10  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.6.140.6 (talk) 19:38, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  330 or 412? 

message: Ing. Forghieri had written the two documents addressed to Mr Glickenhaus dated the 22nd of February, 2016 and 14th March, 2016 based on a "tourist's glance" and some very brief documentation that was made available to him. Ing. Forghieri stated that Mr Glickenhaus had not provided him with any documentation. He had not thoroughly inspected the chassis as Mr Glickenhaus had stated. Since writing the letters I sent some pictures of Mr Glickenhaus's chassis and he has confirmed that it is not the chassis he took to Daytona for testing in December, 1966. Therefore it is not not the 1967 winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona as the car that won was the car that Ing. Forghieri had tested at Daytona. On looking over the photographs of the chassis Ing. Forghieri had said that the rear of the of the chassis of the fake P4 of Mr Glickenhaus was completely new and the biggest differences to a real one were at the front section that had not been restored. 
There is also now photographic proof in the form of independent period photographs which have been posted on www.ferrarichat.com that the real Ferrari P3/P4 0846 did not retain its P3 engine mountings as Mr Glickenhaus has proposed and stated for years that these identify his car as the real 0846. The primary engine mountings on Mr Glickenhaus's chassis have also been built to P4 plans but located in the P3 position to fit the P3 type engine with less than ideal bolt on adaptors later fitted to fit a 312 F1 3 valve engine. The photographs prove that the rear of the chassis on the real 0846 was converted to be identical to a P4 with correct P4 engine mountings to mount the Tipo 237 P4 engine with the P3 mountings removed. Miurasvjota (talk) 11:37, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ing. Mauro Forghieri confirms that the P3/P4 chassis in the Glickenhaus P3/P4 is the Original Chassis that was in the Ferrari P3/P4 that won the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 

message: Because I questioned whether Ferrari would have used the method found on the Glickenhaus/Piper 0003 chassis to deal with the issue of fitting the P4 engine to a P3 chassis, I wrote to Ing. Mauro Forghieri, who joined Ferrari in January, 1960 having just graduated at the University of Bologna in Mechanical Engineering and was the Chief Technical Director at Ferrari's Race Department from October, 1961 to 1984. As well as all the Formula 1 cars and other Prototypes from this period, he designed the 330 P3, 412P, 330 P3/4 (0846) and 330 P4. I included photos of the engine mountings from Jim Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document and asked whether or not the engine mountings were his work. Ing. Forghieri was kind enough to look over the photos and respond. I have his permission in writing to post his information, which has been independently authenticated on another web site, as follows:
"Dear Mr.Robertson
I will say what I remember of so old days.In 1966 we design the 330 P3-0846. This car take part at the 12 h of Sebring number 27 drivers Parkes Bondurant. I like to make clear that P3 and P4 are from aerodinamic point of view very close.The draft was done by the technical bureau of Ferrari racing DPT. MR Drogo had nothing to do with the cars of Ferrari racing departement. The 330 P3 spyder was modified at the end of 1966 in a new P4 with the new 3 valve engine,curved intakes with injection,new Ferrari gearbox, minor modifications to the chassis with 2400 wheelbase.The modest wheelbase was thanks to the good aereodinamic stability developed at the aereodinamic wind tunnel in Stutgart.
This prototipe was the test car for private test(first in Ferrari History) in Daytona December 1966. The 0846.P4 spyder was used in the following races 1967:
Daytona 24 h winner Amon-Bandini n.23
Targa Florio Vaccarella -Scarfiotti
Le Mans 67 Amon-Vaccarella
Amon was hit by a flying wheel and the car caught fire and was badly damaged. The car was discarted by Ferrari and the chassis was destroyed. The pictures,sended to me,show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. The solutions tell me that probably another P3 chassis was used to have a new 0846 P4. Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount. Your chassis is a P3 arranged by some body to accept the P4 engine and the correct wheelbase 2400.
I hope to have been of some help.
Kind regards
Mauro Forghieri"
From this response, we have learned that:
1. According to Mauro Forghieri, chassis 0846 was discarded to the scrap yard after Le Mans '67.
2. Mauro Forghieri did not engineer the engine mount modifications seen on the Glickenhaus chassis.
3. According to Mauro Forghieri, Ferrari never would have accepted such modifications.
4. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is not the original 0846.
5. According to Mauro Forghieri, the Glickenhaus chassis is probably another P3 chassis, modified to accept a P4 engine. 
Of course, #5 creates another question: Which one and why? However, in corresponding with Ing. Forghieri I did not mention that the Glickenhaus chassis was a replica originally commissioned by David Piper. He only has photographs of the engine mountings so it is understandable why he concluded that it is probably another P3 chassis and not that of a replica of a P3/P4 that the chassis actually is.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miurasvjota (talk • contribs) 06:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: - I can't read all of this rant, could you perhaps condense your argument in a paragraph or two so that someone could make sense of it? Also, new comments are to be added to the bottom of the conversation - this way interested editors can read the entire discussion chronologically. And remember, wikipedia is about verifiability rather than truth: WP:NOTTRUTH. Cheers,  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:28, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Previous discussion before the above

message: From the article:
The 250 P was a Prototype racer...
The italics on the initial letter give the impression that the "P" in "250P" is from "prototype". While possible, this is unlikely. It is more likely that "P" means "posteriore", the Italian word for "behind", which is where the engine is. The Lamborghini Miura was similarly designated "P400", which signified "Posteriore 4 litri".
I have not yet found any references for this, but the insinuation that the "P" means "prototype" isn't cited either.
Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 10:48, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  "P" for "prototype"?  

message: Regarding the main page for these cars - They did not have a longer wheelbase. It was the same as the 250 P at 2400mm. Miurasvjota (talk) 18:33, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  275 P and 330 P 

message: Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a forum, so slug it out somewhere else, not here! This has been going on for years, so it's time for it to stop. Thomas.W  talk 12:09, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Glickenhaus P3/P4 

message: Somebody is back on Wikipedia perpetuating the Glickenhaus misinformation that the P4 replica Mr Glickenhaus bought from David Piper is the long lost genuine Ferrari 0846 despite there now being period photographs of the real Ferrari 0846 that show the Glickenhaus/Piper chassis to be completely different proving it is not 0846. The designer of the real 0846 Ing. Forghieri has also stated on the 10th of May, 2016 that the Glickenhaus car is a "falsa P4" fake P4. See below:
After considering information and pictures sent to him of the DP0003 Glickenhaus chassis and cylinder block stampings, Ing. Mauro Forghieri, designer/creator at Ferrari of the real 330 P3/P4 #0846, sent me an email on 10th May, 2016, the content of which, in his words in Italian, is as follows below. Scroll down for English translation:
"Gent.mo Sig. Robertson Io penso che lei sia il maggiore esperto di P4 esistente.La serie di foto che mi ha inviato mi hanno fatto enorme piacere, in particolare quella della 412 s/n854 prima nuda e poi in restauro.Le devo comunque fare osservare che sia la vettura di Glinkenhaus che la vera P4 s/n 0858 non hanno il tubo da lei indicato con le frecce rosse nella foto n 4(412 P s/n0854 ) mentre hanno il tubo che lei indica sempre con le frecce nella foto n 3(dp3 arrows).Questo diversa soluzione è dovuta alle differenze tra motore 412 e 330.La parte posteriore del telaio della falsa P4 di Glinkenhaus è stata fatta nuova e questi particolari non potevano sfuggire ai carrozzieri, che avevano già costruito vere P4.E' nella parte anteriore che non è stata rifatta, che mi sembra sia la maggiore distanza dal vero.Lei dimostra comunque che la vettura di Glinkenhaus non è una P4 originale con le sue foto relative al motore,ed inoltre la posizione della stessa Ferrari, che ha negato il numero a cui è molto affezzionato Glinkenhaus,e la mia stessa convinzione negativa e quanto asserito da altri non dovrebbe fare credere che questa vettura possa essere considerata originale.Io non sono potuto andare in Sicilia per motivi di salute e di lavoro, ma sarò a Montecarlo.Ho cercato di fare chiarezza sui due tipi di telaio per evitarle commenti e problematiche. Grazie per tutto con infinite cordialità e rispetto Mauro Forghieri"
Gabriele Longoni very kindly translated Ing. Forghieri's above email which is as below:
"Dearest Mr.Robertson
I believe you are the biggest P4 expert living nowadays.
I really liked the set of pictures you sent, especially the one about 412 s/n0854 bare chassis and during restoration.
Please note, however, that both Glickenhaus’ car and the real P4 #0858 don’t have the tube you pointed with red arrows on picture n°4 (412P s/n0854) while they have the tube you point with arrows on picture n°3 (dp3 arrows).
This different configuration is because of the differences between a 412 and a 330 engine.
The rear portion of Glickenhaus’ fake P4 is completely new and these details couldn’t have been missed by coachbuilders that built real P4s.
I believe that the biggest differences from a real one are in the front section.
You, with those engine pictures, are proving that Glickenhaus’ car is not a real P4; and Ferrari’s belief too is proving it, because they refuse the number that Glickenhaus loves most; my personal negative belief then and what others said should make anyone believe that this car is original.
I could not travel to Sicily due to health and work issues, but I will go to Montecarlo.
I tried to make things more clear to avoid further problems to you.
Thanks for everything, respectfully and with the best regards.
Mauro Forghieri"﻿ Miurasvjota (talk) 16:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "'''''falsa P4 di Glickenhau''s'''" Ing. Mauro Forghieri - Designer of Ferrari 330 P3/P4 0846. 

message: Ferrari states they never ran a P4 mule at the Mugello road course in 1967 or 1968, neither by Scuderia Ferrari nor by the Customer Department in Modena.
From 1966 and 1967 all log book are available (racing activities and testing). Press was invited on every test at Aerautodromo Modena, Vallelunga, Monza or Pergusa.
No Ferrari factory drivers or clients were involved in an accident with a P4 after the BOAC 500 1967. Ferrari's next test was in 1968 with the 312 P at Monza.
Thomas75ferrari (talk) 21:38, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Mugello accident"

message: * Ferrari 412P #0844 restoration
* Ferrari 412P #0854 wreck (Paul Hawkins biography 'Hawkeye' by McLeod and 'Pipes" book by Mills, Reed & Young)
* Ferrari 412P #0854 restoration
* Ferrari 330 P4 history #0856
* Ferrari 330 P4 #0858 restoration
* Ferrari 330 P4 replica #0846  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas75ferrari (talk • contribs) 17:32, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Restorations & More of Ferrari P cars 

message: Claims are being made that the owner of the P4 replica DP003 built by David Piper has had the car authenticated as the original Ferrari 0846 by the ASI and FIVA. These bodies do not have the authority or the expertise to determine the authenticity of a Ferrari Prototype. Ferrari have stated that 0846 no longer exists and there is substantial photographic proof that this Piper P4 replica is not 0846. Miurasvjota (talk) 02:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  ASI and FIVA not qualified to determine the authenticity/originality of Piper DP003 as Ferrari Prototype 0846.