Talk:Heraclitus

message: The paragraph under fire states that
"This quotation is the earliest use of kosmos in any extant Greek text.[5]", but there is no quotation metioning cosmos. 
Has that been accidentally deleted and the reference stayed?
Hskoppek (talk) 17:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm removing it, looks like kosmos is in Homer, so even if its used in a different sense than Heraclitus uses it the statement just isn't true.  - car chasm (talk) 03:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference for cosmos is missing 

message: criticism secrion contains only praise 109.245.227.67 (talk) 07:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: This was a fair point, I changed it to legacy :).  - car chasm (talk) 16:05, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  ... inappropriate criticism 

message: I tracked down the source of one previous image of Heraclitus, here. Were these based on actual sculptures in the Vatican or some place, or imagined? Perhaps a silly question, but his depiction of Thales seems so standard it seems like there is a real herm out there to be ignored. Cake (talk) 08:51, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: could you clarify a bit what you're suggesting here? the talk page is for the article itself, but im struggling to find any specific changes to the article you're proposing.  - car chasm (talk) 15:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: The linked image (or another version of it, this one) was previously in the article, and was presumably removed due to it being unsourced, and/or not from antiquity.  I've found the source, and it leaves me wondering if there is a bust of Heraclitus somewhere which the image reproduces. If it's a drawing from a bust in the Vatican (such as we have of Bias of Priene) or similar, then it seems to me a good image for the article. If it's completely from the artist's imagination, I can understand prefering a different one. Cake (talk) 19:40, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, yeah, I agree. If we can find any proof that it's not from the artist's imagination, and it's actually based on a bust from antiquity, then that picture (or a picture of the bust itself...) would be fine. If we can't find anything sourcing it though I think we should keep the current picture.  - car chasm (talk) 23:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: When I tried to improve upon the article that was previously mostly Greek quotes to work with - which you further improved upon - I had searched far and wide for a sculpture from antiquity somewhere. It's too long ago for me to recall with certainty, but I think the one being used wasn't confidently identified as Heraclitus. I think it was also identified as Democritus or somebody. It's also possible it's fine and I am confusing it with another one.  Regardless, the above drawing was the best I found. Sometimes the image is the same but has him crying, which seems to suggest the imagined "weeping philosopher", sometimes it seems not to. Further, the one on commons is on a sheet of several busts, some of which are copied from sculptures like Seneca is Pseudo-Seneca, and some other like Thales which seem so often reproduced for "how he looked" that it must come from some sculpture somewhere, yet I've never seen it. Your parenthetical note is what I am hoping for. That this rambling screed can lead to finding a marble or bronze bust or sculpture. I feel I should expect one somewhere. Cake (talk) 02:29, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

text: And after checking, yes, the current profile pic is the one also identified as Democritus, and has no reason I've found for why it's identified as Heraclitus. In fact I found "One need only list the suggested identifications for a portrait from the Villa of the Papyri at Herculaneum - Demokritos, Solon, Aristotle, Philopoemen, Thales - to see that such a project is fragile at best". Pseudo-Seneca also from the Villa of the Papyri. Cake (talk) 03:14, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, yeah, seems like we probably shouldn't use the current picture then, I've just changed it back to the old one.  - car chasm (talk) 05:38, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: It stood out from all the seemingly ancient depictions I could find that weren't "Some philosopher of some kind, possibly Heraclitus" or (at least that I could see) working on a theme like Heraclitus-as-crying or Heraclitus-as-cynic. Unless that line on his face is a tear (it seems less prominent in the original). Tried to avoid using some Dutch painting or whatever but of course it is possible one might be forced. To think Bias has a face but Heraclitus doesn't. I'm sure there are many similar cases but that is an odd one. Cake (talk) 06:58, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

text: Here is another one I'd like to know more about. Cake (talk) 08:09, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

text: Here is one source which says there are two busts at least provisionally identified as Heraclitus. Note there's also one of Thales, and those two having busts was my initial suspicion. And no question mark by his name. Cake (talk) 08:14, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

text: The above is number 2 from the Hall of Philosophers, identified (at least at one point) as Heraclitus. Gotta find 3, which is also him. The one which is used in the article looks an awful lot like Aristophanes, note the headband. It probably used to be identified as Heraclitus, or some such. Cake (talk) 12:21, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, I've sort of figured it out. See this picture. The top two left are said to be Heraclitus, labeled as #2 and #3. Next to Socrates who is 4 (that helped). We have 3. We don't have 2. There is one engraving which seems to use 2. Cake (talk) 06:15, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Image tracked down

message: I don't see any sources which state the influence coming from Heraclitus, but marking it down here in case I do or somebody else does, the American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce summarized his doctrine of continuity as "Everything swims." Cake (talk) 08:18, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Peirce influenced by Heraclitus?

message: Some notes:
* In general, the organization should be reworked. The writings section doesn't seem to have a coherent theme, and other sections also discuss his writings. Some of the sections, such as "Time" and "Aristotle" are stubs and can be folded into something else. It's also not clear to me why "Logos" and "Ethos" are under the "Cosmoloy" heading.
* Not all references are formatted using  templates.
* Add transliteration markup.
* Attribute philosophical views to particular philosophers. Don't use "some say" (see MOS:WEASEL).
* The first sentence in the section on "The obscure" comes out of nowhere; what is the "forever" being referred to?
* Punctuation goes outside of the quotation mark on Wikipedia (MOS:LQ).
* Be careful with attributing emotions/feelings to Heraclitus (e.g., Heraclitus "liked" or "disliked").
* The paragraph beginning "Several fragments seem to relate to these two concepts" (and the others like it with strings of quotes from Heraclitus) feel like OR. The quotes should be discussed in the context of secondary literature.
* Left some cleanup tags.
voorts (talk/contributions) 02:56, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  GOCE copy edit