Talk:Phenotypic trait

message: :This section's heading was retrofitted by User:Raazer as part of their 16:46, 10 March 2005 edit.Noted by Jerzy•t 06:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Resolved Discussion: Article modified to satisfy

message: Hello, there is an article called trait that is linked to an article called Phenotype. The Phenotype article is nice and compact as it is, but it does not contain all the information in "trait". I'm sort of itching to merge the contents of "trait" to "Phenotype". The Phenotype article will get much longer, however it would be more complete (the contents of trait would go below all that is included in phenotype as of today). Also, the movement of "[biological] trait" to "phenotype" would open up the trait articlespace to allow for a redirect to "biological trait" and "computer science trait" What do you guys think?Raazer 16:46, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Raazer did not quite put in the appropriate merge tags in the main articles, so I added that.  Personally, I think this is probably a good idea, as long as all the material in both articles is retained (or at least all the general concepts). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 01:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A trait is something we can give a name, like body size, or eye color. The phenotype for the trait eye color can vary between blue, brown and grey. The phenotype (blue) is a property of the trait and caused by genes (coding for not making melanine) and the environment. As such, they are very distinct different aspects.--KimvdLinde 04:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Dr d12 15:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: *Oppose.  The definition of phenotype at Phenotype is blurred. A phenotype is not a trait, nor is it a property of a trait, as suggested above: a specific trait is one of the properties of a phenotype. A phenotype manifests a set of traits.  "The phenotype of an individual organism is either its total physical appearance and constitution or a specific manifestation of a trait, such as size, eye color..." This is causing the apparent problem. Wouldn't the following be more correct? "The phenotype of an individual organism is its total physical appearance and constitution; a specific manifestation of a trait, such as size, eye color... is phenotypical, that is typical of the individual."--Wetman 14:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A trait is something we can give a name, like body size, or eye color. The phenotype for the trait eye color can vary between blue, brown and grey. The phenotype (blue) is a property of the trait and caused by genes (coding for not making melanine) and the environment. As such, they are very distinct different aspects.--KimvdLinde 04:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Oppose 

message: * I'm moved against support by several arguments made.  Chiefly that the trait is "eye color", while the phenotype is "blue", so the have meaning at a bit different level. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 01:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutral 

message: * Traits include genetic traits and traits such as eye color, number of fingers, etc. So the word "trait" can apply to genotype and to phenotype. Why, then, mash trait and phenotype together? P0M 23:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment 

message: Overall, no real support in favour, some clear arguments agains, for that reason, no merge. I will make he changes as I suggeste below, and we can go on from there. KimvdLinde 20:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  outcome 

message: Given the current definitions of phenotype and trait (biology) - and the various comments above about a proposed merge between the two, I would like to know the difference between a trait and a phenotype. To me, trait and phenotype both mean measurable characteristic. (If you find a reference, can you paste it here as well?) The definition at phenotype closely matches the "Encyclopedia of Genetics" reference that I added - it doesn't have a separate entry for trait. Dr d12 15:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Dr d12 15:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trait vs Phenotype 

message: Shouldn't there be a disambguation for Traits in prototype-based object-oriented programming languages? Wouter Lievens 14:06, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Computer Science 

message: I propose to change : "As one synonym for trait is phenotype; the difference is that this second term can also indicate the total physical appearance or constitution." to “The term phenotype is sometimes used as a synonym for trait in common use, but strictly speaking, does not indicate the trait, but the status of that trait (e.g., the trait eye colour has the phenotypes blue, brown and hazel).” This will take away the incorect implication that I think resulted in the request for merging this, which I think is incorrect (and not how I would teach quantitative genetics at the university) --KimvdLinde 06:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I am in favour of moving this article to "Trait (biological)" and make from "Trait" an Disambiguation page pointing at both "Trait (biological)" and "Trait (computer science)".  Furthermore, "Character (biological)", "Biological trait" and "Biological character" could become redirects to "Trait (biological)". --KimvdLinde 13:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I support what KimvdLinde says. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 14:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Needed changes 

message: Ok, I have added the changes, all links are redirected to this page, etc etc etc.--KimvdLinde 23:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Changes 

message: It is perhaps a bit late as the merge discussion above is already quite old. Nevertheless, I agree with those that argue that there is no real difference between trait and phenotype. For instance, E.J. Gardner (Principles of Genetics, 4th ed., John Wiley, New York, 1972, P. 456) defines phenotype as: "Characteristic of an individual observed or discernible by other means (i.e., tallness in garden peas; color blindness or bloodtype in man). Individuals of the same phenotype may appear alike but may not breed alike." The first phrase seems to be the same as what here is called "character", whereas the second phrase seems to refere to what here is called "trait". In both cases Gardner uses "phenotype".
Another point is that the current article seems a bit muddled. "Trait" (or phenotype) applies to all kinds of organisms, including, for instance, bacteria. So why give a description of chromosome structure, discuss the centromere, QTL and what not? It is not pertinent here. The same goes for the section on Mendelian expression of genes (a strange title in itself) and the discussion on the biochemistry of dominance. All those subjects do not belong here and are on top of that much better discussed elsewhere.
Most of the "Definition" section is superfluous, too. It is not necessary to describe the whole chain of transcription etc. In fact, protein or even RNA expression are sometimes regarded as phenotypes (traits) in themselves.
In summary, I don't see much that needs to be saved from this article. As far as I see, it can just be replaced by a redirect to phenotype....
--Crusio (talk) 14:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Since I posted this message almost 2 years ago, nobody has answered and not much has happened here. I therefore propose to redirect this article to phenotype and will do so in one or two weeks, unless there are significant arguments against this. --Crusio (talk) 09:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Phenotype again 

message: Adaptation states that it is about the process, but someone who didn't understand disambiguation (perhaps the one who put about 4 links into the entry for Adaptation on the Dab page 
) made this the second 'graph of the article:
: Also, the term adaptation may refer to a feature which is especially important for an organism's survival.Both uses of the term 'adaptation' are recognized by King R.C. Stansfield W.D. and Mulligan P. 2006. A dictionary of genetics. Oxford, 7th ed. For example, the adaptation of horses' teeth to the grinding of grass, or their ability to run fast and escape predators. Such adaptations are produced in a variable population by the better suited forms reproducing more successfully, that is, by natural selection.
If it is not redundant to Phenotypic trait, perhaps someone will see fit to (uhh) adapt it in the accompanying article.--Jerzy•t 06:01, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Material misplaced into article "Adaptation" 

message: Is there a name for a set of species that share the same (set of) given phenotypic trait(s)? 134.58.42.46 (talk) 12:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Organisms that have the same trait(s) 

message: The basic problem with this article is that the definition only works with Mendelian-type characters, which are discrete and little influenced by nurture. In the definition we have at present, traits are contrasted with characters, as follows.
A character is a feature of a species which may present as various traits. Examples:
#Eye colour = character
##Blue eye colour = trait1
##Brown eye colour = trait2
#Appearance of pea = character
##wrinkled = trait1
##smooth = trait2
Used like this, a trait can be defined as:
:1. Any detectable variation of an inherited character. It is the expression of genes as part of the phenotype.Klug, William S. et al 2012. Concepts of genetics. 10th ed, Pearson, p45 and G-19. ; 
But, if an animal's weight is a character (which it surely is), then it is not clear what the trait is. This is because weight is a) continuous rather than discrete, b) polygenic in its inheritance and c) because weight is influenced by both heredity and environment. The alternative is to say that trait and character mean the same thing, as for example:
:2. The Dictionary of Genetics: "For trait, see character" and "Character: any detectable phenotypic property of an organism; synonymous with phenotype, trait".King R.C. Stansfield W.D. & Mulligan P.K. 2006. A dictionary of genetics. 7th ed, Oxford University Press, p448 & p71 respectively. 
Both these sources are well established, and widely used. Macdonald-ross (talk) 08:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition defective 

message: Whether or not all diseases are also traits, this article needs to specify Wikipedia's take on this issue. For example, the sentence "All diseases are a subset of traits". Or "If a bioentity is a disease, it is not considered a trait". Or more likely, some nuanced discussion of the differing views on this issue. Jaredroach (talk) 21:01, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need to discuss ''disease'' in this article