Talk:Polio/Archive 1

message: moving original research here. "Flat earth" stuff that deviates from known facts becomes Wikipedia material only when a lot of folk "believe" in it.  - Nunh-huh 06:15, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: OR

message: "Flat earth" was the belief of a repressive church.
I've read "Policy and guidelines" and there is nothing that says anything about "popularity" being a prerequisite.  The works I quote are based in orthodox journals.
Much evidence contradicts the poliovirus theory.  Completely omitted from current orthodox medical science are the toxicological correlations.  A great history of poliovirus criticism exists during the era of 1908 to 1956, which is unknown to the modern era.
The highly funded virology of polio clouds the toxicology of polio.  Orthodoxy completely omits and avoids the obvious toxicology of polio.  The symptoms of "polio" are similar to DDT poisoning, for instance.  The dumping of DDT into the U.S. food supply matches the rise and fall of polio during 1940-72.
The foundations of polio virology are extremely weak.  Poliovirus has not been properly characterized because the supposed virus was rarely if ever isolated, ie., filtration was not employed; impure tissue extracts were utilized in lab experiments.  
A problem with "polio" (as virus caused) is that the diagnoses of polio epidemics did not, could not, and rarely attempted to, distinguish between the many various neurological diseases.  Thus, even if one were to accept the virus theory, one cannot know if a declared "polio epidemic" was polio, encephalitis, meningitis, a variety of flu-like diseases, or a mixture of all of them. 
www.geocities.com/harpub</blockquote> 
* To save anyone else the trouble, the reason this theory is "unknown to the modern era" is because it is arrant nonsense, supported only by hyperbole and graphs showing all the signs of statistical manipulation. I think this section can be removed from talk and archived somewhere. ::Didactylos 03:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, we consider alternative explanations. And if they are found to be without merit we reject them. thx1138 16:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Or, to quote Carl Sagan,<BLOCKQUOTE>"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."</BLOCKQUOTE> -- MarcoTolo 23:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Polio and Pesticides

message: The reason I phrased it as announced a campaign rather than is involved in eradication is that the United Nations is very political, and often their agencies don't do what they say they're planning to do. I earnestly hope this campaign succeeds, however. Polio is horrible -- worse than malaria. --Uncle Ed 21:47, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The plan to eradicate polio is older than 2004, however 2004 was hoped to be the year of the final campaign to get rid of the disease. The campaign has met unforeseen resistance in Nigeria, but the last report I read from BBC says that it is still hope. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3546877.stm -- Gustavf 16:41, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)
We may want to update the polio spread thing. This article from the Globe and Mail points out it's hit Sudan; It's also hit Botswana in the past few weeks.
Combined with AIDS in the latter region, it's going to get nasty.
All because people decided to make a vaccine political. It'd be as comical as the anti-flouride stuff in the 50s, if it weren't so deadly. -- Penta 04:18, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: WHO

message: From the article:
Most families allowed their children to take the vaccine. Some Muslim families refused due to false rumors that the vaccine causes impotence or infertility or both.
This is point of view.  Surely the Muslim families who refuse vaccinnes do not believe that their refusal is due to false rumors.  Instead the article should cite a group of people who believe those families are acting on false rumors.
--ErikStewart 00:42, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: in order to not regard the rumours as baseless in fact, should there not be some credible evidence that impotence or infertility have occurred, or a credible mechanism for such to occur be adduced?  Midgley 01:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: POV

message: Robin_Miller flew Polio to the outback.  I'm not sure where to put it.
Immunity requires three infections, one with each of the strains.  The same presumably applies to immunity from sub-clinical infection with the wild virus, should one be so lucky, as to the live attenuated viruses.  The killed vaccine doesn't have th esame problem of competitive inhibition, but is less effective. Swings and roundabouts. Midgley 01:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  interesting 

message: There was a polio outbreak in an Amish community in Minnesota last year: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101301733.html
I was just wondering why this wasn't included in the tables listing polio cases by location. CecilPL 19:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: CDC a more apposite reference, or deeper, anyway. Midgley 21:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polio in Minnesota 

message: A nice article for a thesis, this needs brought down to the common man, and totally ignores history, unless it's way down in the bottom—which would violate WP:MOS guidelines on introductions. There is no sense of the fear people had of congregating to swim..., at ballparks, in any large venue.
:This one also fails to mention FDR, The March of Dimes, or the near panic fears in the world's populous which all should be touched by the intro and these shortcomings boggles the mind. In sum, it's a clinical article, and needs historical and cultural meat as far as I was able to skim it last evening. 
My resultant TO-DO note (I was in deep waters elesewhere) in:
:Polio — dumbify intro and mention FDR in introbody. Does not even begin to give the horror of the disease and fear. In sum far too clinical.
B'regards<B>Fra</B>nkB 15:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  History of infectious diseases in general deserves some attention.  Midgley 16:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   TO-DO on POLIO 

message: I'd like to change the sentence "United States president Franklin D. Roosevelt contracted polio in 1921 and was paralyzed from the waist down as a result." under "History" to the following (just the text is shown below, I will fix up the references):
"Franklin D. Roosevelt may have contracted polio in 1921. Yet his age (39 years) and many features of his illness are more consistent with a diagnosis of Guillain-Barré syndrome (an autoimmune peripheral neuropathy). A peer-reviewed study published in 2003, using Bayesian analysis, found that six of eight posterior probabilities favored a diagnosis of Guillain-Barré syndrome over poliomyelitis. Regardless of the cause, the result was that Roosevelt was totally and permanently paralyzed from the waist down. He could sit up and, with aid of leg braces, stand upright, but could not walk. Although the paralysis (whether from poliomyelitis or Guillain-Barré syndrome) had no cure at the time, for the rest of his life Roosevelt refused to accept that he was permanently paralyzed. He tried a wide range of therapies, but none had any effect. Nevertheless, he became convinced of the benefits of hydrotherapy, and in 1926 he bought a resort at Warm Springs, Georgia, where he founded a hydrotherapy center for the treatment of polio patients which still operates as the Roosevelt Warm Springs Institute for Rehabilitation (with an expanded mission). Furthermore, after he became President, he helped to found the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis (now known as the March of Dimes), that supported the rehabilitation of victims of paralytic polio and the discovery of the polio vaccines."
I would also like to change the picture caption to: "Franklin D. Roosevelt helped to found the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis (now known as the March of Dimes)", since the current caption is not justified by the evidence. Or, just "Franklin D. Roosevelt".
I would be willing to make a future separate article on FDR's paralytic illness, with more detail. At that point, I could shorten the section within the polio article, if that would help.
Since this is a major change, and since the new information casts doubt on the previously countlessly repeated and unquestioned assertion that Roosevelt's paralysis was caused by polio, I thought it would be good idea to start a discussion thread to give a chance for others to disagree. 
The big change is factual information initially described in a peer-reviewed publication in the Journal of Medical Biography , of which I was a co-author and which I can add as a reference in the article. I've also added information about FDR helping found the March of Dimes, and Warm Springs.
I would ask anyone who objects to the changes to please read the published article  first.
Dagoldman 22:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While he may not have actually had polio the fact that everyone thought he had polio was very important. Maybe you should just say something like while recent studies strongly suggest that he was misdiagnosed at the time it was common knowledge that he had polio and this encouraged him to search for treantments and helped rally support for the disease. --Gbleem 18:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I made changes in response to your suggestions. Dagoldman 22:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Guillain-Barré syndrome usually gets better - the residual deficit is often hard to detect, not paralysis.  Midgley 18:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cause of Roosevelt's paralysis 

message: There is some reason to believe that the virus enters the body through the ear.  Beadtot 20:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh really?  Like an earwig sneaking in to lay eggs?  Link to your source please. Lisapollison 22:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  viral entry 

message: The World Health Organization says that Nigeria, India, Pakistan, Niger, Afghanistan and Egypt, are the six remaining polio-endemic countries: Does anyone know where should I (or anyone) put this information?! I can't seem to find a place where it fits! __Maysara 21:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Six remaining polio-endemic countries 

message: I found this article. Is this a good source or conspiracy theory stuff? --Gbleem 18:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  salk vaccine deadly 

message: I'm not sure who wrote the Polio entry for Wikipedia, but I'm curious about this statement:
"The first immunization of children against polio began at Arsenal Elementary School and the Watson Home for Children in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in 1954."
I was always under the impression that the very first vaccination was at Franklin Sherman Elementary School in McLean, Virginia.
Link
:The Watson Home vaccinations were in 1953, before Franklin Sherman's in 1954. I think this is a difference in a Phase II clinical trial in 1953 and a large Phase III trial in 1954. Rmhermen 21:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Incorrect info? 

message: * The article is getting long-ish (around 53k) and one easy split would be to make Poliovirus a standalone article. Moving Poliomyelitis#The virus and the taxobox to the new page would reduce the size to about 45k. Comments? -- MarcoTolo 03:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *So, having elicited a grand total of zero comments, I'm going to be bold and make the split. -- MarcoTolo 03:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: *All done. I'd appreciate it if folks could double check the two articles (Poliomyelitis and Poliovirus) to see what I missed in the move. -- MarcoTolo 03:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Excellent - both articles are much clearer with your edits. Thanks for batting cleanup. -- MarcoTolo 00:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Poliovirus split

message: The Bulbar polio article is (at the time of this writing) insufficiently autonomous to be condidered a seperate article, and has been redirected back to the main page for the time being. See also Talk:Bulbar polio for further details.--DO11.10 17:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bulbar polio redirect 

message: I think the section on eradication is long enough and relevant enough to merit its own page. Any protests?
Candent shlimazel 13:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't really have a problem with that. The table needs to remain in both articles though. Also the name of the article cannot be as proposed. Something like Poliomyelitis eradication (note lowercase here, and a redirect from Polio eradication) would be more in line with the Manual of Style and Naming conventions. Let's hear what others have to say.--DO11.10 17:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I worry a little with splits like this: statistics-based articles seem to stagnant sometimes (or occasionally grow without bound). That said, its a very minor concern - no real objection from me. -- MarcoTolo 01:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Move completed - did I miss anything? -- MarcoTolo 23:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Eradication Section Split

message: * POLIO free nations - I feel the map has to be corrected as countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt have been declared poilo free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.68.39.18  (talk • contribs) 22 April 2007 
You will notice that the map's caption says "polio-free regions (in blue)" it does not say "polio-free countries". The "regions" indicated on the map are designated by the WHO. 
:: the Americas - Polio free 1994
:: Western Pacific - Polio free 2000
:: Europe - Polio free 2002
:: Africa  
:: South-East Asia 
:: Eastern Mediterranean (includes Saudi Arabia and Egypt) 
Although several countries in each of the three "Non-polio free" regions are actually polio-free the WHO region in which they are grouped has not be declared as such. Thus the map and the caption are current and correct. Although, the map will clearly have to be updated for the impending "polio-free" declaration of the Eastern Mediterranean.--DO11.10 19:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Map

message: Since the status of FDR's disease is questioned (polio vs. GBS vs. whatever), using him in an image at the top of the Poliomyelitis article seems a little misplaced. I've restored the previous image: while not as good a picture, it's more forthright. -- MarcoTolo 19:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is fine with me. I swapped them because I wanted to use the other image below in the recovery section. Are there any others images that might be able to be used in this section instead (maybe :Image:Polio physical therapy.jpg) or if you can find/ point me to any others?--DO11.10 19:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmmm, that's odd - I could have sworn an anon editor made the change.... If I'd known it was you, I'd have said "Hey! Why did you do that?" <grin>. You're right, the image makes more sense in the recovery section. I'll swap it back and take a look at other image options for the opener. -- MarcoTolo 19:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, sorry it was me (sheepishly looks at feet). I suppose this one would work in the prognosis section, and we could keep the "polio lo-res" one at the top?--DO11.10 19:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No sweat - I've swapped the images per your suggestion. I'd forgotten about the physical therapy photo; maybe I'll try it on for size in the History article. -- MarcoTolo 20:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FDR image in header

message: I've move the following section here:
:"In China, where over 2 million paralytic polio survivors live , the surgical care of the post-poliomyelitis sequelae has offered means of reducing or eliminating the paralytic and bones deformity/atrophy associated with polio. To regenerate nerves and muscle activity in dead muscles, for example a dead quadriceps, part of the hamstring may be surgically removed and grafted into the paralytic quadriceps. Bones deformity or atrophy are generally corrected by osteotomy. A pioneer in the field, Dr. Qin Sihe (See: http://www.qinsihe.net) has pioneered many techniques to address the various post polio sequelae observed."
::
My primary concern is the apparent lack of English reference sources - I'm not comfortable basing a reliable source criterion on automatic Google translations of source material. Second, the section seems borderline promotional. Third, the factual content is vague (I'm not claiming its completely wrong, just not clear). Finally, a least one source not connected with Qin is needed. -- MarcoTolo 14:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of "Chinese Cure" section