Talk:Baháʼí views on homosexuality

message: [Bahai Faith and Homosexuality] [Introduction] [1973 UHJ statement] [1982 UHJ letter and 1993 LGBT group meeting] [Various letters and statements] [2002 physician letter and current status] [Internet agitation] [A personal essay]
Can any of the above info be worked in any way, shape, or form into the article or the discussion here? 2601:D:3582:2C0:D9F6:A202:90A8:4E23 (talk) 01:51, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Religious Tolerance articles 

message: 1996 Statement by the National Spiritual Assembly of the UK:
The NSA distributed a statement prepared for a London UK education group about the teaching about homosexuality within the school system. The Assembly stated that :...the statement does not claim to be exhaustive, but it can be used with wisdom as part of a response to questions." Some excerpts from their statement are:
* "...the sexual impulse is a God-given one... The appropriate circumstance for this is within [opposite-sex] marriage, the legally, socially, and spiritually sanctioned union of two adults of the opposite sex. Other expressions are neither valid nor to be encouraged."
 
* "[This is] taught by the world's great religions, and is part of the basis of a stable and civilized society." 
 
* "The moral and sexual education of children cannot be taken separately, and must be based upon heterosexuality, fidelity, and the family unit." 
 
* "...the sexual practice of homosexuality is no more an acceptable activity than is heterosexual activity outside marriage." 
 
* "We also abhor the introduction of loaded words such as 'homophobia' and 'heterosexism' to try to convey the idea that rejection of homosexuality is as prejudiced and discriminatory as racism, sexism, and other biases and intolerances..." 
Their statement that the world's great religions teach that sexual activity must be confined to a man and a woman married to each other is not accurate:
* Islam's Sharia Law permits one man to be married to up to four women.
* Some Mormon denominations actively promote polygyny -- the marriage of one man to multiple women. 
 
* The Old Testament describes eight marriage/family styles involving men with female wives, concubines, prisoners of war, and slaves. 
 
* In addition, liberal wings of many religions promote or condone other sexual practices. Some accept pre-marital sex between loving committed couples. Some  promote or condone masturbation for health reasons among males, and to help youths understand their sexual functioning.
Since there are three sexual orientation among adults, and since a significant minority of school students will become lesbian, gay or bisexual in adulthood, many human sexuality educators recommend that sex-ed classes include information on all sexual orientations.
As to whether the oppression of, discrimination against, and rejection of gays, lesbians and bisexuals will be treated in the future as evils on a par with racism, sexism, xenophobia, and religism (discrimination based on religion), only time will tell.
Also, specifically on the backwards projection of all the above point in the letter describing the Baha'i positions on marriage and sexuality on to all the world's great religions that it recognizes before itself. Anybody familiar with Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Zorooastrianism, etc would say that such an obvious porjection of the Baha'i view onto their religion is inaccurate as given the example disproofs above. Also, homophobia and heterosexism are real thing, and not just political terms with nor real meaning that are Trojan horses to destroy traditional values. 50.178.142.148 (talk) 16:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  1996 UK NSA 

message: 1993 gay-positive meeting:
On 1993-SEP-3 to 5, at the request of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States, a group of gays, lesbians and supporters gathered in Reno, NV to discuss the beliefs and practices of the Baha'i Faith with regard to homosexuality. The meeting was organized by the Local Spiritual Assembly of Reno and members of the Gay Baha'i Fellowship. On a letter to the Assembly dated 1993-SEP-20, they raised a number of points:
In an apparent reference to the high suicide rate among gays and lesbians, they said:
* "Many of us have been in hiding from our Baha'i communities, we have all been made to feel unwelcome in our own religion. For a few of us, it seems that alienation, confusion, and despair has been too heavy a burden to bear." 
 
* "Many of us believe that this issue revolves around the Baha'i principle of the reconciliation of science and religion." 
 
* "None of us has found in all our efforts any evidence whatsoever that a homosexual can be changed into a heterosexual by medicine or psychological treatments. Our personal experience supports the accepted view of science." 
 
* "...recent data strongly suggests that sexual orientation is not only non-pathogenic, but prenatal, in fact in part genetically determined."
They cite a conflict between:
* "On the one side, a person's unchangeable sexual and emotional needs, supported wholeheartedly by medicine and psychology and further strengthened by a global movement in Gay and Lesbian rights. On the other side, the morality and censure of their chosen Faith. This is no small dilemma."
The group produced a series of recommendations to the Assembly:
* "...greater compassion and forbearance in regarding homosexual Baha'is." They suggested that administrative action be taken against gay or lesbian Baha'is only in cases of "genuine public scandal." 
 
* An end to "backbiting, intolerance, and unkindness" directed at gays' and lesbians' private behavior. They called for an end to a double standard; they felt that homosexuals and heterosexuals were treated differently for the same behaviors. The asked for a review of all cases where voting and other rights were removed from gays or lesbians. 
 
* Creation of a learned committee "to develop a plan to enlighten and educate the American Baha'i community concerning homosexuality..." 
 
* Creation of a group: Baha'i Parents and Friends of Gays and Lesbians (BPFLAG), modeled after the existing, secular PFLAG. 
 
* The Gay Baha'i Fellowship provide a speakers bureau as a resource to the Baha'i community. 
 
* The Assembly should make a "clear statement about whether gays and lesbians are welcome in the Baha'i Faith." They expressed concern about the negative effect that lack of acceptance of homosexuality by the Baha'i Faith is having upon individuals in the scientific, civil rights, and progressive religious communities. 
 
* That Auxiliary Board Members and their assistants be provided "with up to date materials, resources, and background on this subject." They expressed concern that "the focus to date has been one of "changing' sexual orientation which is not a reachable goal, in light of current scientific findings." 
 
* The Assembly should instruct Local Spiritual Assemblies to stop encouraging marriage as a cure for homosexuality in view of the disastrous consequences that generally result. They recommended that lists of AIDS resources and support organizations be made available all Baha'i institutions and individuals.
 
* The group offered to consult with the National Spiritual Assembly about these recommendations.
They received no response from the Assembly at the time. However, the latter have since gone on record as welcoming gays and lesbians as members, as long as they make a "sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of their conduct." Presumably this means that they try to change their sexual orientation and/or remain celibate. More details below.
"The Bahai's and the homosexuals," at: www.studiedocumenten.googlepages.com/  This is a PDF file.
Letter containing recommendations to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States from a gay-positive group is at: http://bahai-library.org/
There was no explicit answer, but the next general letter after it on the subject chose to completely ignore all the proposals and dig into the entrenched position it held earlier.
Current status of homosexuality in the Baha'i Faith:
Persons with homosexual, bisexual or transsexual orientation are all welcomed as members of the Baha'i Faith. As stated by a draft FAQ approved for distribution by the US National Spiritual Assembly:
"To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Baha'i Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstances; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Baha'i Teachings."
"Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law."
Any Baha'i member in good standing can be elected to any office within the Faith, regardless of their sexual orientation. However, gays and lesbians might be declared to be not in good standing if they flagrantly display their homosexuality. They are expected to make "sincere and persistent effort" to remain celibate. 
A fundamental belief of the Baha'i Faith is that true science and religion cannot be in conflict. Sexual orientation continues to be studied by human sexuality researchers. In the West, a social and scientific consensus is being developed that
* homosexuality is a natural, normal, unchosen, and acceptable variation of human sexuality for a minority of adults, and
 
* an adult's sexual orientation is unchangeable or can only rarely be changed.
We expect that the Baha'i Faith will experience increasing conflicts over homosexuality and bisexuality in the West. Some will be escalating internal dissension, driven by Baha'i gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. They generally believe that their sexual orientation is natural and God-given; they want their religious group to recognize this.
There will also be external pressure from those in North America who accept recent scientific findings. Potential converts will be less likely to join a religion that treats minority sexual orientations as disorders. On the other hand, discrimination against gays, lesbians and bisexuals may well increase the growth of the Faith elsewhere in the world in those countries that oppress homosexuals and bisexuals.
Wilma Ellis, "Bahá’ís and homophobia," 2004-MAR-15, at: http://www.studiedocumenten.googlepages.com/ This is a PDF file. 
A "Draft FAQ: The Baha'i Faith and Homosexuality" prepared by Roger Reini on 1996-JAN-13 is available at: http://bahai-library.org/compilations/homosexuality.comp.html
I haven't seen any more proposals like it, but will keep looking for it. 50.178.142.148 (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  LGBT Affimring Proposals Unanswered and Ingnored 

message: This is a minor point but I'd like to think about the clause that reads, "The Bahá'í position towards homosexuality was refined with the writings of Shoghi Effendi".  The relevant definition (from Google) of "refine" is to "improve (something) by making small changes, in particular make (an idea, theory or method) more subtle and accurate".  My opinion is that whether this accurately describes Shoghi Effendi's contribution is debatable.  For example, I could imagine the following debates: 
* Since Shoghi Effendi made it clear that homosexual behavior is not permissible between Baha'is, calling this an "improvement" could be interpreted as prejudiced against the LGBT community.  (To me "refine" also comes with the connotation of making something more sophisticated or cultured)
* Some could argue that Shoghi Effendi "changed" existing teachings of the Faith, while others may argue that he didn't "change" anything, but rather "explained" what already existed.  
In regard to the above two points, I think it's ultimately best to remain as neutral as possible.  That is, we should be able to come up with a verb that captures the contribution Shoghi Effendi made without trying to label that contribution as "good" or "bad", and without trying to label that contribution as "making a change" or "not making a change".  I'm open to suggestions.  One approach might be to say that he "disambiguated" the matter, or solidified it in some way.  I think it's accurate to say that before Shoghi Effendi wrote on the topic, an outsider would have had difficulty understanding the implications of the writings of Baha'u'llah on the subject, and afterward the situation was much clearer.  I would be also interested in secondary sources and the language they use -- although I imagine that finding a neutral source will be difficult.
Rm9820 (talk) 23:53, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: As the author of the offending verb, I suggest you be bold and refine it. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shoghi Effendi's contribution 

message: The opening line "The Bahá'í Faith takes no position on the sexual practices of those who are not adherents." is apologetic nonsense that should be removed.  Like all religions, the Baha'i Faith espouses objective truths about right and wrong based on the belief that they represent the Will of God and that their universal adoption will rebound to the improvement of society.  Baha'i statements on homosexuality represent truth-statements which are never stratified by adherent status.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:A88:300:F11E:9A02:D782:408F (talk) 22:55, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 04:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  But the statement was just moved to later in the paragraph and qualified with "Baha'i institutions." The source is a primary source that has a clear incentive to make itself look more tolerant than it really is. Baha'i institutions take no position on the sexual activities of non-Baha'is, but they do take the position that non-Baha'is should all become Baha'is, which basically negates the point. The article is replete with thinly veiled POV content. Adding another template at the top. Gazelle55 (talk) 00:17, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:  Update: I appreciate the addition of more sources describing criticism, so I am okay with the neutrality template having been removed. However, the article still relies very heavily on primary non-independent sources so I am restoring the other template. Gazelle55 (talk) 16:34, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

text: Sorry about that, I was intending to finish revising the article but got distracted by other pages. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:15, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

text: What a god (from a religion X) believes is what this god from religion X believe, not what his followers believe he believe (unless he some strange god that believe at doing and believing at what people think he believe at). So there is no reason to call the believes of god X homophobes, racists and etc.... for saying god (of religion X) believe at Y, thats because the one who believe at that is god not themselves and even if they believe at that themselves it comes from a premise where god is omniscient and benevolent and if he says believing at Y must be done, then it must be done.179.162.70.82 (talk) 02:40, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  religious truth-statement 

message: The sentence that reads "The reference to overcoming or reversing a sexual orientation has garnered considerable criticism from those who regard it as innate and unchangeable. Conversion therapy has been largely condemned by many medical organizations, particularly in the United States and United Kingdom, who see it as unethical to view a heterosexual orientation as preferable to a homosexual orientation." needs revision in my opinion. First the statement about "considerable" criticism is not cited. There is a citation for the issue causing controversy in this article, so perhaps that wording should be used instead? This sentence also implies the Baha'i Faith practices conversion therapy when it doesn't. Perhaps it's included because other religions have tried to use conversion therapy and assume the Baha'i Faith would too? Also, the Baha'i Faith teaches reliance on trustworthy doctors so if medical organizations were condemning something Baha'is would not do it. T0lk (talk) 05:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Be bold! Cuñado ☼ - Talk 20:19, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  On conversion therapy