Talk:Air traffic control

message: The role of contract towers may be a bit overemphasized--introduced a bit too early and given a bit too much coverage. tbeddab 20:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree.  The opening paragraph of a general article on ATC is too early a place to cover in this amount of detail how ATC is organized in one particular country.BaseTurnComplete 02:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the stated purpose of ATC, as stated in many official documents worldwide.  I provided a reference on the page to clarify this.  ATC's primary mission is to prevent a collision between aircraft operating in the system.  Pilots are, in fact, totally relieved of responsibility to prevent collision with other aircraft when operating in IMC in class E or higher airspace -- this responsibility is delegated to ATC, and, as a last resort, in-aircraft collision avoidance systems.  It is a common misconception that the pilot has undisputed authority to operate his aircraft.  Think of it this way -- You can do whatever you want with your car on your own land, but if you choose to drive it on the highway, you must obey the laws.  You can do whatever you want with your airplane VFR in class E airspace, but if you choose to fly it into B airspace, you must obey ATC.  These are not absolutes, of course -- no one expects a pilot to fly into a thunderstorm because ATC told him to, just as you might run a red light to avoid a rear-end car accident, but you had better have a good reason why you broke the law. Srilm (talk) 05:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

text:  A subtle point here -- The purpose of the ATC "system" is to prevent collisions.  That is clearly stated in the FAA order I have listed as a reference, as well as those of other governments and organizations worldwide.  HOWEVER... An individual air traffic controller is not, strictly speaking, trying to prevent aircraft from colliding.  He is attempting to provide approved separation standards between aircraft and other aircraft, vehicles, and terrain.  In other words, his goal is to keep airplanes farther apart than is really necessary (in most cases).  This is a "safety buffer" built into the system, so that even if the controller fails to do his job correctly, there is some margin left to compensate for the human error.Srilm (talk) 16:26, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

text: Flight levels start at 180 in the United States, but not in some other parts of the world.  Essentially, flight levels begin where terrain is no longer a factor (the pilot is not concerned with his height above the ground).  The goal is to keep fast-moving aircraft traveling large distances on the same altimeter setting as the aircraft around them, so that safe vertical separation is maintained when needed.Srilm (talk) 16:30, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Contract towers

message: In the Air navigation service providers (ANSPs) and traffic service providers (ATSPs) section it lists Airservices Australia, Royal Australian Air Force and Civil Air as service providers in Australia. The first two are correct, the third, Civil Air, is really the trade union for air traffic controllers and I will remove it shortly as they don't actually provide any air traffic control function. If anyone has any reason why it should stay - say so here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spuzzdawg (talk • contribs) 16:44, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Civil Air as Australian Provider 

message: Simple physics dictate the amount of traffic that can land at an airport in a given amount of time.  
-Very Vauge....sepration requirements are weather, type, aproach in use, airspace, locality dependant.  
-"SIMPLE PHYICS" has little to do it,  747 could land in formation like a pair of Thunderbirds.  The regulations and requirments have much more to do with trafic capacity. 
IFR rules that require larger separation takeoff and landing needing to be separated by X seconds so sepration will be legal after the missed aproach.
-aircraft type (wake turbulance avoidance), 
-weather (visiablity and wind), 
-enviromental factors / noise abadance / local goverment issues   
-approach layout.
: Not quite: departing aircraft are separated by time (minutes not seconds) based upon vortex category, landings are separated by vortex category on final approach (for IFR - VFR are given recommended spacings).  If there are no vortex separation issues between departures, en-route separation becomes the controlling factor and either time or radar separation is used to separate departures (depending on flight rules and airspace class).  If that is not a factor, the general rule that only one aircraft can use the runway at any one time becomes the limiting factrp (although there are some exceptions to this rule).  Except in some special cases landing aircraft are not separated from departures (missed approaches are not separated from departures in a systematic manner - they are dealt with tactically when they happen)BaseTurnComplete 22:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Consider Revising 

message: This article is getting very long and text-heavy, with seemingly endless blocks of text. Besides pruning and condensing, I think it could be vastly improved if we (a) add some pictures, and maybe more subheadings to help the layout; (b) branch it out into sub-articles. Specifically, areas like TRACON and possibly even EnRoute Control could easily be summarized in a far shorter space, and yet have the details preserved in a sub article using the Main Article: TRACON under headings format. I'm pretty busy these days, but that's where I'm focusing my efforts. -Lommer | talk 03:53, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pruning and Branching out 

message: All of these could be eliminated by simply referencing the FAR part and section. Then there will be no arguments over whether ATC instructions are advisory or mandatory, and whether the primary role of ATC is separation of traffic, etc.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.156.170.115 (talk) 17:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Many countries have similar rules, however it's not always mandatory: often it's only advice BaseTurnComplete 22:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

text: Actually, controllers aren't supposed to provide instructions to VFR aircraft receiving flight following.  If a VFR pilot receives an instruction he/she doesn't feel like carrying out, the pilot can always say, "Cancel VFR advisories, squawking VFR" and can turn off the radio.  (Of course, the pilot still has to keep in radio contact and follow instructions when in "talking-required" airspace like Class B, C, and D in the U.S.) —Cleared as filed. 04:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, this is 100% inaccurate.  I'm making this bold because it needs to be seen, as it is a potential safety issue for inexperienced pilots.  I speak as both an experienced pilot and as a veteran controller when I tell you this:  once you request ATC service, you are expected to comply with ATC instructions.  You may advise that you are "unable" to perform an action, but you'd better be ready to receive a new instruction in lieu of your refused action.  When you request VFR flight following, you are essentially submitting to VFR ATC control.  Controllers will normally give only advisories to VFR aircraft, but will, as the situation merits, issue instructions to such aircraft as well.  The fact that ATC is issuing a VFR aircraft an instruction should be cause for a veteran pilot to "sit up and take notice", as the controllers will usually do this only if there is a seperation or safety issue.  Simply cancelling service becuase you don't want to comply with an ATC instruction is not only a great way to get your tail number reported, its inherently dangerous and foolish.  Controllers do not provide instructions becuase they get a kick out of it; if an ATC facility issues you an instruction, it is in order to esure proper seperation and safety of flight operations.  Try that "cancel advisories I'm going deaf" stuff, and you'll likely be hearing from your local FAA inspector PROMPTLY.--69.143.69.249 05:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

text:  VFR advisories and Flight Following are very US-centred concepts and AFAIK don't have a parallel in ICAO, although certain countries do have similar concepts (in the UK a Radar Information Service is very similar to US Flight Following)BaseTurnComplete 22:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

text: "Cleared as filed" is technically correct.  Controllers (in the USA) are not supposed to provide instructions to VFR aircraft receiving flight following (E airspace).  As the airspace letter goes up (D, C, TRSA, B) the controller gains more authority.  On the other hand, an instruction from a controller usually has a purpose.  As a 20-year plus controller and pilot, I have seen numerous situations where both pilots and controllers overstepped their authority.  But yes, you do have the right to terminate in E airspace.  Use that right cautiously. Srilm 00:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

text: As a 20-year plus controller and a 25-year plus pilot, I have also noticed over the years that controllers tend to overstep their authority with VFR aircraft.  Also, as controllers are trained from the very beginning to use IFR separation standards, they overcompensate for VFR aircraft.  "See and be seen" works quite nicely with VFR aircraft moving at traffic pattern speeds.  Many times I have shown up for work and and been asked "oh my god, were you flying at XXX yesterday? the pattern had so many targets we couldn't tell them apart, and many of them must have almot hit."  Usually my response is "I was there all day, and it was actually pretty quiet.  There were a lot of airplanes, but everything was pretty calm and smooth."  I have also been issued "terror vectors" for an aircraft that when I finally saw it, was barely close enough for me to even look at it again.  I try to teach my controller students that VFR works. Issue traffic and safety alerts, absolutely, but don't overstep your authority.Srilm (talk) 03:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inaccuracies 

message: With regards to the reference to CRM, a very recent development here in the UK is 'TRM' (Team Resource Management) - basically CRM applied to ATC.  Is this term being used anywhere else, or is CRM being used?
In the US, the concept was called ATTE, Air Traffic Teamwork Enhancement.  It was never fully implemented, because as usual, the FAA would not fund the time necessary for controllers to be away from the tower/scope to take the training.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.210.120.119 (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  CRM = TRM? 

message: Could somebody include something about the recently introduced systems of atc over the pacific and atlantic oceans, whereby computer data links are used to pass information between atc and aircraft when the aircraft is beyond the range of radar (and to some extent voice communication). I'm not an expert on the matter but as a fairly new and interesting technology it would be nice if somebody could include a bit on it. In fact it might even warrant an article of its own...84.65.96.122 02:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You mean ADS and CPDLC.  I'll see if I can squeeze something in. BaseTurnComplete 18:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  oceanic atc and data links 

message: Do we have to be a bit careful about definitions here?  In the UK, "Terminal Control" means Approach Control and lower-level Area Control in areas with many closely located airports, as distinct from Tower control.  The text here seems to imply that in the US it means Approach and Tower control (the UK would call these two Airport Control).   What about other countries?BaseTurnComplete 21:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terminal Control 

message: Since there is a wide variance between FAA and ICAO regulations and practices, maybe it would be a good idea to seperate the two and have an ATC(FAA) page and an ATC(ICAO) page?
--69.143.69.249 06:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree, partially.  It would be better to have the main Air Traffic Control page using ICAO terminology and then have separate sections that could be expanded into separate pages that go into detail on how Air Traffic Control is done in each country.  The US is not the only country to significantly deviate from ICAO, but ICAO is nominally the global standard BaseTurnComplete 17:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Disagree. It would be too confusing to the average reader for there to be two articles one for one country the other for all other countries. It would be much better to just have a separate section. 199.125.109.70 16:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Disagree Please bear in mind that non-expert readers need to be able to understand this. If someone types in air traffic control and are given a disambig page giving them a choice of ICAO and FAA they won't know what to choose just to get basic information about how ATC works. Abc30  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abc30 (talk • contribs) 00:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Comment This is a puzzle because if the article is not split, it is grossly inaccurate about a great many things.  But it can't be made accurate unless a lot of content IS split or just deleted outright.  I wonder if the community would just rather see a much shorter, more generic article, or an article with a lot of footnotes and exceptions?  Srilm 23:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's up with the disputed tag? Please be specific about what these "great many things" you had in mind. I see no need for either footnotes or exceptions. There is a section for differences, use it. I'm deleting the tag. 199.125.109.70 19:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

text: Just a few examples I grabbed at random: 1. "Controllers may use a radar system called Secondary Surveillance Radar also known as Airport Surveillance Radar for airborne traffic approaching and departing."  SSR and ASR are two different things.  Radar may be used for other traffic, not just arrivals and departures. 2. "Ground control must request and gain approval from tower control to cross any runway with any aircraft or vehicle." Very oversimplified and certainly not true at many airports.  3. "While IFR flights are under positive control, VFR pilots can request flight following, which provides traffic advisory services on a time permitting basis and may also provide assistance in avoiding areas of weather and flight restrictions."   VFR aircraft are under positive control at times, also.  Again an oversimplification that can easily lead to incorrect interpretations. This is not a personal attack, but anyone who reads this article could mistakenly believe it is accurate.  I put the disputed tag back up, but it does appear that some housecleaning has been done lately.  I'll take the disputed tag back down, but this article needs a lot of work still, and references. Srilm 21:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggest splitting article 

message: Air Traffic Management redirects here and indications are that the term is a more general term than 'air traffic control'.  Consider the line item shown at ATM and the page Talk:Air Traffic Management.  Could someone comment on this?  Should 'air traffic management' have an article of its own or should it appear as a concept in 'air traffic control'? Thanks for the input. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's actually the other way round, Air Traffic Management is a broader term encompassing ATC, plus such things as Air Traffic Flow Management (ATFM), Airspace design and other concepts.  It would be worth detailing this in a separate article.86.132.198.177 12:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'Air Traffic Management' redirects here 

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thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Mapflightmap3.jpg

message: Request cite on "English" usage. I wish to know whether it was agreed upon by treaty or simply a custom. --Voidvector (talk) 06:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Its because at the end of World War II the vast majority of the world's air traffic controllers were English-speaking. This is because of the wide-ranging air routes that were being flown by the Allied air forces, which were to a large part, worldwide, and also because that a large part of Europe was at the German surrender being administered by the Allies. Also the British and Commonwealth, and later the Americans, had the most comprehensive radar systems installed at the various airfields. Basically, it's because the people in charge of the majority of the world's airspace were English-speaking. The other advantage was that English was taught as a second language in many of the world's schools so there were more people familiar with English than with any other language, a result of the influence of the British Empire. The other languages that might have been used such as French and Spanish were not as useful from the geographical point of view, as the parts of the world that spoke these languages, e.g., parts of the South Pacific, South America, were for the most part not the ones were the airlines wanted to operate, the potential for passenger traffic, and hence revenue, was much less. Countries such as the-then Soviet Union, and China, had very little influence as their governments were more insular, and their citizens were unable to make use of air travel in the way that 'Western' citizens were.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.249.208 (talk) 13:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language 

message: I suggest that Air traffic controller be merged into this article. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up®  06:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge proposal 

message: I noticed one part of the article said "In September 1964, the FAA instituted two layers of airways, one from 1,000 to 18,000 feet (305 to 5,486 meters) above ground ...."
I am a private pilot, and that should read something like ... one from 1,000 ft AGL (above ground level) to 18,000 ft MSL (mean sea level)....
A minor difference but it is more correct.
207.67.8.130 (talk) 16:17, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction ? 

message: This section is pretty convoluted and I will try to clean it up a bit. For example, the heading is "Air navigation service providers (ANSPs) and traffic service providers (ATSPs)" but the first paragraph refers to "a division between the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) (the Regulator) and the ANSP (the Air Navigation Service Provider)". Is the CAA the ATSP? The text is unclear and confusing. — Uncle Bubba (talk) 17:59, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  ANSP and ATSP section 

message: Article has been tagged for needing citations since 2007. Please feel free to reincorporate below material with appropriate references. Thanks! Doniago (talk) 19:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced Material 

message: This is an excellent article which, AFAIK, describes how terminal control is done in many countries.  However, I think that the acronym TRACON is is a US term for the more general Terminal Control Centre (spell the last word how you will), therefore I've added a sentence to show that it's US terminology.BaseTurnComplete 22:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, and I've changed the article to reflect a more global point of view.  Feel free to make changes if anything I've done doesn't make sense. —Cleared as filed. 05:18, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: United States v. Internation/TRACON

message: Wesson International used to make a game that shows the non-professional the basics of trying to do air traffic control. --User:David Jordan 03:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: ATC Game

message: Are Potomac and Washington Center the same thing? --Daysleeper47 16:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potomac vs. Washington Center 

message: This article has drifted back to being very US-centric again.  Time for an internationalizing re-write.BaseTurnComplete (talk) 17:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  US Centric 

message: This article lists the functions of air traffic control and not much more so I really don't see the point in this article. However, it may be userful for there to be a section on the ATS in the Air Traffic Control article. As far as I know, Air navigation service providers (ANSP's) are the same thing as ATS's, so we could have the role of the ANSP's within that section, from the information provided by the ATS article. The ATS article also doesn't have much (if any) relevent or referenced information. Hjay50 (talk) 14:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  ATS Merger proposal 

message: The article says that ADS-B users pay a provider to carry their messages. I think that is false.  It might have been true for ADS-A, a totally different thing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.118.29 (talk) 03:44, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  ADS-B 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Currently under construction in Sweden, the new Scandinavian Mountains Airport will be the world's first airport built without a control tower:
* http://www.flygtorget.se/Aktuellt/Artikel/?ID=11893&KatID=1
As air traffic control tower is (rather oddly?) a redirect to this page, that might be worth a mention.
Mais oui! (talk) 09:08, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Attempting to clarify your wording: non-towered airports are quite common in the US (and I would imagine elsewhere). Usually they are single-runway general aviation airports. I think what you're trying to point out is that this airport has "virtual" ATC, which sounds like it could be different. Cheers! Skyraider1 (talk) 12:06, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: The source does say this will be the first airport to be built with this system in place.  It is not the first airport to use the system, there are airports in Sweden already using the system.  There is an airport in the US that is currently testing the system, JYO.  - GB fan 12:37, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Scandinavian Mountains Airport]] world's first airport built without a control tower 

message: Greetings!
Recently, a number of new photos of ATC towers around the world have been added to the righthand-side of the page. While each might be somewhat architecturally interesting individually, having a haphazard gallery aligned vertically is not adding to the quality of the overall article (see Image do's and don'ts). When I find some time, I may cull and/or rearrange some of the photos....I'd also recommend not adding new ones of towers themselves. The ones currently in the article are more than sufficient to show a reader what an ATC tower looks like.
Cheers! Skyraider1 (talk) 15:04, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images on right-hand side of article 

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thread_title:  External links modified (January 2018) 

message: Hi everyone, when looking at this article, one of the glaring oddities is that all seven of the pictures at the top of the page are of control towers. Control towers are just one of the three main types of air traffic control facilities, the other two being terminal/approach control centers, and area route centers. To the untrained outside observer, control towers are usually the image that comes to mind when thinking about air traffic control, because that’s what the public is exposed to the most. However, the reality of air traffic control is that all three types of facilities are equally vital for safe air travel. Please remember that Wikipedia is about what’s true and balanced and proportional about a particular topic, not about what’s popular or well-known. I propose that some of those seven control tower pictures at the top of the article be swapped out for pictures of terminal/approach control centers and area route centers, to more fully provide a balanced and complete representation of what air traffic control really is. Thoughts, comments, and opinions are welcome. Thanks for reading Mrbeastmodeallday (talk) 22:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disproportionate representation of control towers 

message: There is a line towards the beginning of the Technology segment of the page that states "In America, controllers hand each other paper flight progress strips". Does this only refer to the United States, or does this also refer to the rest of North America and South America? On the other hand, are paper strips still commonly used on any other continents? ElToAn123 (talk) 15:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: @ElToAn123 I was a controller in Germany and we used paper strips 10 years ago. TreSpillerDama (talk) 04:11, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Paper Strips Ambiguity 

message: I believe that Airport traffic control tower could stand as a separate article, with substantial potential for expansion. What is the history of such structures? When and where were the first ones built? How has their design evolved over time? What are the typical layout options?
Would anyone be interested in working on this? BD2412 T 17:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split out [[Airport traffic control tower]]