Talk:Benito Mussolini/1

message: These 2 sentences made me choke on my miso:
"In fact, Mussolini has been said to have saved more Jews than even Oskar Schindler. Later, he would refuse to allow Jews to be deported to concentration camps until Germany occupied Italy during the war (a period depicted in the movie, The Garden of the Finzi-Continis)."
...and I would like to see the assertion footnoted if it's true. Who said it?
Chaikney 22:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Mussolini and Jews

message: *"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."  Could someone please cite a source for this quote? - japhyfoo@backword.net
I have spent several months trying to find this quote. It appears to be a very bad translation of a section on corporatism supposedly written by Mussolini for the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), but several English translations do not contain anything like this quote.  Chip Berlet <cberlet@igc.org>.
moved off main page left quote on that page User:Smith03
Berlet: I have tracked down the original 1935 English version of Mussolini's pamphlet, Mussolini, Benito. 1935. "The Doctrine of Fascism." (Firenze: Vallecchi Editore), which is listed as a translation of Mussolini's article in the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932). The quote above does not appear. Nor does it appear in a longer booklet which contains "The Doctrine of Fascism" as a chapter: 
Mussolini, Benito. 1935. "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions." (Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers).
I asked a scholar in Europe to find the quote in the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), and he said he could not find a sentence that translates into the quote above. Until someone who reads Italian, and checks the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), and finds there is a sentence that can be accureatly translated into the above quote, I think the quote should not be listed. Chip Berlet <cberlet@igc.org>.
-----
I went and copied the original article in the Enciclopedia Italiana, in case anyone wants to pick a page it is supposed to be on.  If someone wants to argue this quote exists, please cite the page and paragraph from this or another original document. In the meantime, here are some actual quotes from English tranlations.
:The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State--a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values--interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people. (p. 14) 
:Fascism recognises the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade-unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which diverent interests are coordinated and harmonised in the unity of the State. (p.15)
:Yet if anyone cares to read over the now crumbling minutes giving an account of the meetings at which the Italian Fasci di Combattimento were founded, he will find not a doctrine but a series of pointers… (p. 23)
:"It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter!... I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism." (p. 24)
:Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere. (p. 32)
:The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporate, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organised in their respective associations, circulate within the State. (p. 41).
::Benito Mussolini, 1935, "The Doctrine of Fascism," Firenze: Vallecchi Editore.
:The Labour Charter (Promulgated by the Grand Council ofr Fascism on April 21, 1927)—(published in the Gazzetta Ufficiale, April 3, 1927) [sic] (p. 133)
:The Corporate State and its Organization  (p. 133)
:The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and usefu [sic] [typo-should be: useful] instrument in the interest of the nation.
In view of the fact that private organisation of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production.
:State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when  the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management. (pp. 135-136)
::Benito Mussolini, 1935, "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions," Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers.
Hope this is useful. --Cberlet 04:58, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Quotes

message: AFAIK the quote:
"La guerra continua a fianco dell'Alleato Germanico" ("War continues at the side of our German allies")
in the article, is correctly reported. Just a minor error: the literal translation is "the german ally" instead of "our german allies".
Imho the edit is not vandalism but just inaccuracy.
HTH. Marius @ 07:20, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Pietro_Badoglio|Badoglio]]'s quote 

message: an edit claimingthat entering in WWII is widely considered Mussolini's greatest mistake has been considered vandalism. Imho this is an opinion with a strong historical background. Consider also the Franco's regime in Spain: it has survived after the war for a longtime.
Walter
:Oops, I think I didn't fill in the edit summary correctly. I don't consider it vandalism, but I do consider it an unnecessary opinion. On second thought though, perhaps it's actually not that out of place. If you think it makes for a better article, I don't think I should actually object to it being there -- I think I'm closer to neutral now. Sorry for unintentionally calling you a vandal. --Improv 12:34, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that if the Guest would perhaps find a different way of articulating his or her or her point, it could be included. -Joseph (Talk) 15:03, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
When Italy entered WWII (June 1940) almost everyone in the world believed the war was over: France defeated, Great Britain withdrawn from Dunquerque, US neutral, Japan winning, Soviet Union allied with Germany. Mussolini believed that some thousands casualties (his own words) were necessary to seat at the peace table. He didn't face big opposition as this was a general opinion. We must put ourselves in those times to understand. Spain didn't enter as it was exhausted by its civil war. No question that entering was an error, a tragic miscalculation. History is full of miscalculations, how else to call them? IMHO the paragraph removed by Improv is not POV, is mere historical thruth. Marius @ 19:27, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Entering WWII

message: how can i contact the author ? im doing this for a project in school
:Assuming you want to cite this reference in a paper, you should look under Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia.  Alternatively, if you actually need to contact everyone who ever edited this page, you can look at the history page but I don't know how useful that will be. Cvaneg 03:43, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Author

message: The Mussolini quote most cited on the Internet and attributed to Mussolini is not accurate and is probably not from Mussolini. I would like to keep at least a link mentioning this fact on this page.  It is one of the things an encyclopedia does -- correct false data. I would prefer a short paragraph, but it has been deleted. --Cberlet 13:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Corporatism quote

message: I thought that he was an atheist who detested Christianity. Anglius
That was much earlier in his life. It really is hard to say if he ever did become a born again Christian after making peace with Christianity, after taking power he always claimed to be a devout Roman Catholic, but this may have just been a PR thing. After realizing that the Italian people would never tun their backs on their national faith and church, he was smart enough to silence his opposition. 
Interestingly enough he was actually fascinated by Buddhism. Although by the brutal actions that he employed during most of his life, it is hard to be picture him as an actual Roman Catholic or Buddhist.
-Chris Gilmore
:I thank you for your intriguing information, Mr. Gilmore. --Anglius 00:22, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "Category:Roman Catholics"

message: shouldn't the Lateran Treaties be mentioned by name? there is allready an article dedicated to them it could link to. Mark 
:I agree with you, sir. --Anglius 00:22, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: "1929 Concordant"

message: is there any place for, or where should it go? the april 7, 1926 attempt on his life??
--espo111 6 July 2005 02:26 (UTC)
:It would probably belong in the section of "Fascist Dictatorship," Signore Esposito. --Anglius 00:22, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: assassination attempt

message: Most scholars would say that Italian fascism was a form of totalitarianism.  Simply deleting it without discussion is not fair.--Cberlet 02:53, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed Mussolini's regime was avowedly totalitarian, and the first to popularize the use of the term. However, there has been too much research by social scientists and historians who disagree that the term totalitarian is appropriate for any regimes to ignore. Even for those who consider it appropriate, only for perhaps two leaders would there be universally agreement that they were-- Hitler and Stalin. The next closest would be Mussolini and Stalin... Since Ardent and Brezhenski brought the concept of "totalitarianism" back into usage in the 1950s and 1960s to refer to both fascist and communist regimes, some specialists on Mussolini's Italy have problematizing the concept, commenting on his "imperfect totalitarianism." There is more agreement on Nazi and Stalinist totalitarianism, but not complete. Kershaw and Lewin, for example, are among those who have long criticized the totalitarian model as a tool for sound historical comparison of Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. 172 | Talk 05:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds, to be blunt, like bafflegab. You assert the term's relevance to the topic, then say there is no agreement. To me, that sounds like a prescription to surround the term with some NPOV context, rather than simply removing it. --Dhartung | Talk 00:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

text: It is all in the definition of the term "Totalitarian", modern scholars consider it a system of complete enforced control & coercive method of governance upon its populace, a "total control" meaning of 'totalitarian'. Fascist Italy considered the word however to mean something more ideal & utopian if never actually implemented by them or otherwise; a term that correlates highly to Fascist Italy's 'corporative state' or the incorporation of all interests into the state "total". By which they mean 'all interests & walks of life' merging into and officialized/recognized publicly by the state. It can be proven the original "Fascists" meant no such 'coercive' connotations in the word as quoted in the 1932 'doctrine of Fascism' - "...(The state) is not simply a mechanism which limits the sphere of the supposed liberties of the individual...", & "...Neither has the Fascist conception of authority anything in common with that of a police ridden State..." rather it clearly connotes "...Far from crushing the individual, the Fascist State multiplies his energies, just as in a regiment a soldier is not diminished but multiplied by the number of his fellow soldiers...", in this way Fascist "Totalitarianism" was seen from the Italian perspective to be a kind of statist syndicalism, where the private individual interests, belonging to the individual alone, would be given wider leverage by the government & state, in a bureaucratic form, this was Fascism's "Corporative Syndicalism". I also think here, that 'Totalitarianism' when used for the Fascism that popularized it as a term, should be used in their utopian sense and not in a pejorative sense by revisionist scholars of a later era which go on to claim their definition of "totalitarianism" doesn't fit the Italian Fascist state because it wasn't "coercive" enough. Nagelfar 10:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Totalitarianism

message: This page [ Unternehmen Eiche ] has been created as an orphan - no idea if it is valid or not. Would someone with knowledge like to check it out and either link it in or nominate for deletion. --Doc Glasgow 21:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorzeny did not lead the rescue team ! The operation was planned by General Kurt Student and his staff. His Paratroopers/elite infantry did execute this operation. Skorzeny did only take only in this operation as observer.--Denniss 17:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

text: At least one source but in german, more maybe tomorrow  --Denniss 01:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Unternehmen Eiche]] / Rescue by Otto Skorzeny

message: I've heard several times that Benito Mussolini Was Beaten and then shot...but I can't find that information anywhere.Is this true?
You can email me at hollisteraber13@yahoo.com
: Yes, it is true. You can find here  a report from US cameramen sent to Italy to film the conquest. Sorry, the talk is in italian, but around 20 minutes from start you could see the people in Piazzale Loreto hanging the body of Mussolini and Petacci and beating them up. Moreover bodies were hang to the feet and later horribly mutilated. Look at 57 min the unique movie of a bombing raid on Rome and a snipe hunt, too. This documents were collected and revealed by RAI italian TV, and are one of the best documents of WW2 ever.82.61.131.41 00:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  I Have A Question? 

message: This page is a very frequent vandalism target by anons, and takes a lot of time to monitor. I'm semi-protecting the page. --Improv 13:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  +semiprotect 

message: I have just finished reading Mussolini's only novel, The Cardinal's Mistress. I was wondering if someone could elaborate on how much allusion to the dictator's life is really contained in the book. Something in particular I am wondering about are the character names chosen by Mussolini. They seem to contain similarities to names in his real life (i.e. Claudia Particella/Clara Petacci, Rachele the maidservant/Rachele the wife of Mussolini, Emanuel Madruzzo/Emmanuel the King of Italy). Or is it just my overactive imagination?
-Allison Petrucci
(Clashrocker@hotmail.com)
::Fascinating.. Your guess is as good as mine. Most scholars just seem to take it as an attempt at very bad fiction writing. No important insights to be mined in there about Benny, IMO.--Lacatosias 14:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nice theory, but not correct. Mussolini wrote the novel while staying in my hometown, Trento, in 1909 (not, as the page says, 1908 - will have to change that section as it's wildly off the mark) taking inspiration from the last prince-bishop in the Madruzzo line. Carlo Emanuele Madruzzo was the last of the line, and asked repeatedly to be able to leave the robe and give a heir to his family with his beloved Claudia. This is history - more I can't say, I have yet to read the book itself... --Tridentinus 14:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Cardinal's Mistress 

message: I've removed these sentences:
According to Audisio, the execution of Petacci was incidental and unplanned. Despite having no orders to kill her "she simply wouldn't let go of Il Duce".
They have been sitting there for a sufficiently long  time (months? years?) so that the indivdual who introduced them should have been able to cite some source for them by now. I also added    to the assertion that Audisio executed Mussolini, since this is controversial.--Lacatosias 09:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed 

message: We appear to be in the middle of an edit war, and I'd like to move the discussion from terse remarks in edit summaries to the talk page.  The disputed passage of the moment is 
His entry into World War II on the side of Nazi Germany made Italy a target for Allied attacks and ultimately led to his downfall and death.
Anywho, while cause and effect is an aspect of history that can lead to a great deal of dispute, it is still a major aspect (perhaps the major aspect) of the study of history, and I think we have here a fairly clear-cut example of cause-and-effect.  We have a fact, that fact is relevant to the subject at hand, I see no reason to remove it. -MBlume 4/2/2006
:Well, let's analyse one-by-one the factual claims made in the statement:
:His entry into WWII......true, all evidence indicates that Mussolini did indeed enter into World War II. 
:He entered on the side of the Nazis.....true.
:This siding with Nazi Germany against the Allies obviously led to a declaration of war against Italy by the Allies. Hence, Italy's entrance on the side of the Nazis, as opposed to staying nuetral or siding with the ALIIES, led to the Allies attack on Italy as a part of the War to liberate Europe from Nazi domination------true. ERRRR...Why else would they have targeted Italy?
:These attacks ultimately led to the downfall of Mussolini............well, it's probable that his own ineptness, cruelty and maladministration played a part is this. But certainly the Allied attacks played there role as well. --Lacatosias 10:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit War 

message: A school-kid emailed Wikipedia that this article has many segments very, very similar to Groliers. True? http://www.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_mussolini.html  --  Zanimum 19:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: If this is the case, how much do we have to rewrite?  MBlume 23:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Similar to Groliers 

message: we just had a rather large, rather heroic sort of portrait added to the page, and then moved to the top where it sat above the article.  I've moved it down for now, but I'd like a discussion about whether we want to keep the new image at all, especially since the article already contains a link to Mussolini in Pictures. MBlume 23:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's gone. That was ridiciclous. If it reappars I promise that I will us this example to discreidt Wikipedia on every blog, forum, the Italian wiki. I sum, I will copy it and pasete in everywhere I can possibly do si all across the Internet, I will send letters to the editors of newspapaers and maginzes with the photo to ilustrtae the LOFTY standards of Wikipedia
criteria for inlcusion of photos and info. Believe me, I can't do all that much, but such nonsense as that will speak or itself and that would HURT this project VERY MUCH INDEED!!. KEEP IT OFF!!--Lacatosias 09:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image 

message: Mussolini wasn't an atheist was he?  Someone's added that category
I honestly do not know if he was an atheist, an agnostic or a weak sort of Catholic. But I think this has more to do with the debate over at Adolf Hitler about Hitler's alleged Catholicism. The stupid game of stiffing people in categories to make a religious or political point has spread over to this page now. Perosonally, I don't much care one way or the other and I doubt anyone really knows. But since everyone takes this stuff so seriosly, where's the citation for this? --Lacatosias 17:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Atheist 

message: Those are helpful articles.  Please consider adding information about the following:
1. The Mussolini-Hitler salute originated from the USA’s early Pledge of Allegiance and a (rexcurry.net/USA-pledge-of-allegiance-rexcurrydotnet.jpg) shocking photograph is here.  The original Pledge began with a military salute that then stretched out toward the flag and a (rexcurry.net/USA-pledge-of-allegiance2-rexcurrydotnet.jpg) photograph is here.  In actual use, the (rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html) second part) of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm down by disinterested children perfunctorily performing the forced ritual chanting by extending the initial military salute, as shown by Professor Rex Curry. Due to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge, the (rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-german-connections.html) military salute led to the hard, stylized salute of Mussolini-Hitler.  It was an extended military salute via the USA’s Pledge. 
2. At the time that Mussolini-Hitler found their salute they were both (rexcurry.net/roman-salute-benito-mussolini.html)  self-proclaimed socialists and leaders in their movements. It was not an ancient Roman salute, and the "ancient Roman salute" (rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html) is a myth].  The myth grew from the use of the USA’s pledge salute in  (rexcurry.net/roman-salute-benito-mussolini.html) early movies showing fictional Roman scenes. 
3. The swastika, although it was an ancient symbol, was used sometimes by the National Socialist German Workers Party to represent overlapping “S” letters for their “socialism,” as shown in (rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html) Swastika Secrets]by Dr. Rex Curry.   The same symbolism is shown in Hitler’s own bizarre signature, which Hitler alter to use the same stylized "S" letter for "socialist," and similar alphabetic symbolism still shows on (rexcurry.net/bookchapter4a1a2a.html) Volkswagens.
4. The Mussolini-Hitler salute in the USA pre-dated Mussolini-Hitler by decades and was created by Francis Bellamy (author of the "Pledge of Allegiance").  Francis Bellamy and Edward Bellamy (author of the novel "Looking Backward") and Charles Bellamy (author of "A Moment of Madness") and Frederick Bellamy (who introduced Edward to socialistic "Fourierism") were socialists.  Edward, Charles and Frederick were brothers, and Francis was their cousin. Francis and Edward were both self-proclaimed National Socialists and they supported the "Nationalism" movement in the USA, the "Nationalist" magazine, and the "Nationalist Educational Association." They wanted all of society to ape the military and they touted "military socialism" and the "industrial army."  Edward’s book was an international bestseller, translated into every major language (including Italian & German) and he inspired the "Nationalist Party" (in the USA) and their dogma influenced socialists worldwide (including Italy & Germany) via “Nationalist Clubs.”
:The Nazi salute was far older, originating with Roman soldiers and Hitler got it through Mussolini, not the USA. Also, I see your links as an attempt at search engine optimization so I delinked the multiple links to what (I assume) is your own site. Apart from that misinformation, I don't see much new or enlightening in your post. --Golbez 07:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, points 1 and 2 are wrong, point 3 is not related with fascism (fascism used the roman "fascio", the svastika was nazist and not linked to the "s" letter). --Jollyroger 22:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mussolini & USA