Talk:Daivadnya

message: * Missing page numbers in references: eg "Hindu Temples and deities" by Rui Pereira Gomes
* Use of primary sources (see WP:PRIMARY): "Manusmruti", "Rajatarangini" by Kalhana. Wikipedia suggests use of secondary sources. See WP:REF for more info
* There is too much emphasis on the gods: Religion should be one of the many sections. See Featured article Tamil people about sections that need to be added.
* "Migrations from the mainland" should be merged in history as it is part of history. Write section in paragraph form, instead of list as it is now.
* "Ancestral worship", "Math tradition and Sampradayas", "Ishta Devatas", "Gotravali and Kuldevtas" need to be merged in "Religion"
--Redtigerxyz  Talk  05:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article issues 

message: *Very near to B but still not there. Wiki standards have increased considerably.
*Previous issues haven't been resolved.
*The most important part of any ethnic group article Culture is written in a very haphazard manner. 
*Article needs to be restructured. Sections need to be standardized.
*List needs to be removed.
*For a Reference B-class article, check Goan Catholics. KensplanetTC 14:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Issues

message: Common undisputed spellings like Ganesha, shudra, Maharashtra, Konkani etc. are unneccessarily spelt in IAST. That is a big readability issue. How many people will know "Mahārāṣṭra" (also spelt in the article as Maharshtra) is NOT a typos of Maharashtra, but something called IAST? IAST is OK in scholarly books for a scholarly audience, but one can not expect the audience of wikipedia be a reader of foreign author's IAST books. I wasted my time clicked on  Peśvās and realizing it was plain Peshwas. This hindered my read.
I strongly recommend the author: Change the following back in English
* All place names (Śimogā,Cikkamagaluru,Koḍagu,Davaṇgere,Hubballī-Dhārvāḍa,Belgāv were big diversion), Konkan, Karnataka etc.
* Deity names: Shiva, Ganesha, Shantadurga, Vithala, Vishnu etc
* Popular spellings like Chitpavan, Shett, kshatriya, shudra be reintroduced
* Author names, person names (Notable Individuals), historians
* Languages like Bangla (Bengali), Konkani etc
* Festivals like Ganesh Chaturthi
Every other term is italicised in the article. Remove italics as much as possible
* Remove for places. Things like Scythia
* All people names
* Things like genealogical DNA study
* 5th should be without superscript. --Redtigerxyz  Talk  18:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too much IAST and italics 

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*As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use th; for example, instead of (if such appeared in the article) using January 30th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.[?]
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*There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
**it has been
**is considered
**might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?] 
*Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: honor (A) (British: honour), neighbour (B) (American: neighbor), favourite (B) (American: favorite), meter (A) (British: metre), organise (B) (American: organize), recognize (A) (British: recognise), categorize (A) (British: categorise), ization (A) (British: isation), isation (B) (American: ization), anymore (A) (British: any more), any more (B) (American: anymore), jewellery (B) (American: jewelry).
*Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
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**“In the year [of] 1886”
*As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
*Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Redtigerxyz  Talk  13:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Automated review

message: I removed a spurious paragraph based on unrealiable sources: "Technites,or the artist,as well as the Latin verb Texo,the obsolete Teuxo,now Teukho in Greek ,are derived from the Sanskrit Takṣa.Like Technites stand the eight drgree of lineal descent from Syayambhuva,adam or Protogonus. Tvaṣṭar was the grandfather of Maga and the present Manu." In reality, the Latin texo, the Greek tekhnites (τεχνίτης), and the Sanskrit taksan are cognates (IndoEuropean root *tek-). Tvaṣṭar does not seem to feature the same root (a reliable source has to be cited). The Greek teucho (τεύχω) features the IE root *dheugh- which is also unrelated to *tek-. --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:02, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: False etymologies

message: I remain really concerned about this article. It is incredibly complex and seemingly very reliant on obscure sources of dubious merit. I realise that English-language sources may be thin on the ground but, honestly, the number of non-English sources written by seemingly non-notable authors and published by non-notable houses is astonishing. It may need some substantial pruning. - Sitush (talk) 07:41, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sourcing 

message: We say , which makes no sense. The quote that follows the sentence also makes no sense, in that instance because it has two wildly different sources, one of which is not even in English as far as I can tell. - Sitush (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Etymology 

message: "The Daivadnyas claim that they came to Goa in the south in 2500 BCE to assist those Brahmins who came with Parashurama to perform yajna (ritualistic sacrifices) and are believed to have settled in various agraharas with other Brahmins.[18][19] That date is disputed, with some scholars saying it was during fourth to sixth century CE, others saying 700 BCE, and some supporting the community's claim of 2500 BCE. Research by scholars like Dharmananda Damodar Kosambi[20] and Bhau Daji[21][22] claim that these mythologies serves as a symbol of the sanskritisation that, then Goan culture experienced with the advent of Brahminical religion to this region but some scholars reject these claims by providing proofs of migration.[23][24][25]"
This whole section and citations speaks about karade,saraswth brahmins and konkonastha not daivdnyas.I have went through all the citations in this paragraph,If possible remove this paragraph built on wrong citation and add caste related stuffs............Anyone can check the above information!
Ganesh072 (talk) 17:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I suspect there may be a lot of this sort of thing going on. I am becoming increasingly fed up of waiting for people to respond to queries on this page, including those related to obscure sources etc. I'm not ruling out trimming the article by maybe as much as 90 per cent because it alls looks very odd to me. - Sitush (talk) 21:17, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

text: My problem is that I do not have access to a lot of the sources. - Sitush (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whole section is not related to daivdnya caste 

message: I have just made a large revert. As previous notes on this talk page indicate, the article is a mess of excessive detail, poor writing and poor sourcing. The last thing this needs is yet more expansion in a similar vein (blimey, the recent stuff even included citations of Enthoven, who has long been considered unreliable). There has clearly been a lot of work put in by one or two people who have a keen interest in this caste and appear to be often oblivious to the finer points of how an encyclopaedia is supposed to operate and the purposes for which it exists. It needs to stop, we need to take stock of what already exists, and we need to prune it drastically. Whether the actual word count goes up or down isn't really the point: the detail is way too confusing and specious. - Sitush (talk) 07:16, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  My revert on 22 April 

message: I am in the process of archiving a lot of old posts on this page. The ones that make statements without sources and/or ask general questions about kuladevata etc and/or quote ancient primary sources are simply not useful to improvement of this article. - Sitush (talk) 07:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old posts archived 

message: How do I upload images of the festivals celebrated by this community in Goa and Mumbai? ComMentist (talk) 16:41, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Upload images of Shishirotsav (Shigma) 

message: "Brahmin" at its inception was a jati. It was also designated as a varna. This double-existence is probably what led the British administrators to coin the word "caste" for both the concepts and pretend that they were talking sense.
This was not the  case with the other varnas. Shudra and Vaishya were always varnas, never jatis. Kshatriya was initially a jati, but by the end of the Gupta Empire, there were so few Kshatriyas that they had to treat it as a varna, and admit new groups of people into it.
What this means for our purpose here is that Brahminhood is hard-wired into birth. People cannot be simply given "Brahmin status", unlike for the other varnas. (Kshatriyas were also not simply "given status", but were given concocted genealogies, thereby maintaining the pretense that the Kshatriya expansion was still birth-driven. But whoever was doing the concoction obviously knew what they were doing! "Vaishya status", on the other hand, is not particularly sought after.)
The upshot is that the Brahmins get to say who Brahmins are. Nobody else does. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 04:29, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you. -  MRRaja001 (talk) 05:02, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

text: , exactly, I agree. That is why we have to write the issues with both GSB and Daivadnyas on their respective pages.LukeEmily (talk) 05:35, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  An aside on Brahminhood 

message: :::: There is this sentence "A few historians have categorised them into the category of Sudirs or Śudras because the appellation they used, Chatim, was sometimes used by the lower castes." in the page, but this doesn't have any citation/source. In such a case should it not be removed? I removed it but  has reported it as vandalism and wants me to discuss this on the talk page. But is that how Wikipedia functions where doesn't matter what outrageous things are written on the page we need to ask for consensus to remove it? Thanks!
[previous comment by Vernekar123]
::::, I think the editor who added it used "Malgonkar, Manohar (2004). Inside Goa. Architecture Autonomous" as the source. I don't have access to the book hence do not know if it actually says that. But adding contentious words like Shudras etc. requires high quality academic sources. Manohar Malgonkar , had a degree in English not history or anthropology. Don't think he is reliable for varna opinions. I will add some templates for that source.LukeEmily (talk) 18:39, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Searched for "Chatim". This source says 16 were Gujarati vanias , 11 were kayasthas , three were Marathas , and 17 , called Chatim , were either vaisyas or goldsmiths if the latter , they claim to be brahmins , but are considered to be sudras by others. But it uses the word "Goldsmith" not Daivadnya and does not say that it is the opinion of historians.LukeEmily (talk) 18:59, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Thank you @LukeEmily. There is also mention of "Konkanastha Rathakara" in the first line of the page without citations/sources. Can that be deleted? Vernekar123 (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: , it is sourced in the body. The lead generally does not require citations if it is sourced in the body. See MOS:CITELEAD. Thanks,LukeEmily (talk) 16:10, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text:  Ok I understand, perhaps it is like an abstract in a research paper that mostly doesn't include citations. But where is it sourced in the body? I am not able to find sources that say Daivadnya Brahmins are also called Rathakars, there is one perhaps Marathi citation provided, but I can't read Marathi. Perhaps providing exact words mentioned in the script with English translation would help. "Most of documents from Mumbai from early 19th century mention them as Konkanastha Daivajna Rathakara and Konkanastha Daivadnya." - this statement in the page says "most of the documents from early 19th century", but it doesn't cite those documents. So in that case should we not delete this statement? Vernekar123 (talk) 18:30, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  My revert on 14th June 

message: Please remove Christianity from the infobox, Daivadnya caste practises Hinduism only. Those members who converted to Islam and Christianity during Sultanate and Portuguese rule are no longer part of it. 42.107.64.10 (talk) 20:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Did they abandon their caste following religious conversion? Caste is as inseparable from people as their skins are. Caste identities persist even if a person converts from Hinduism to another faith. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 11:39, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

text: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2022 

message: Daivadnya brahmins are not just daivadnyas. They belong to an upper and superior Brahmin community since ancestry as there are many articles proving Daivadnya brahmins performing Yagnas and Yogas across India, specifically in the North Indian region. Daivadnya brahmins follow rigveda and all rituals affiliated to the same. This community in ancestry belonged to astrology and yagnas. And for the correction, Daivadnya brahmins are a descendants of Sakaldwipi Brahmin or Maga Brahmin and not from Vishwakarma community. Air01droid (talk) 06:00, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daivadnya Brahmin 

message: Irrespective of whether they are accepted as Brahmins or not, their names based on my search on google books is "Daivadnya Brahmin" - not Daivadnya. A community is free to call itself whatever it wants. Whether they are accepted as Brahmins or not is irrelevant to the name.  , do you think the name is correct? GSB also have this issue (no concensus on varna) but we still call them by the name they use for themselves. Should this page be renamed to Daivadnya Brahmin (irrespective of their varna)? LukeEmily (talk) 18:03, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Daivadnya Brahmin in sources 

message: The Daivajña or Daivadnya is an ethno-religious community and a Hindu Brahmin sub-caste of the west coast of India, predominantly residing in the states of Goa, coastal Karnataka, and coastal Maharashtra. The state of Goa is considered to be the original homeland of Daivadnyas. They are believed to have flourished and prospered in Goa and hence sometimes they are calledGomantaka Daivajña. Due to many socio-economic reasons, they emigrated to different parts of India within the last few centuries
They are commonly known as Śeṭ in the coastal region. The word Śeṭ is a corrupt form of the word Śreṣṭha or Śreṣṭhin, which could mean excellent, distinguished, or superior. Over time the word was transformed from Śreṣṭha to Śeṭ.[4] Most of the older generation from the Daivajña community in Goa call themselves Śeṭī Bāmaṇ, which is a corrupt form of Śreṣṭhi Brāhmaṇa. The Portuguese referred these people as Xete (cf. Xett, Xete) or sometimes Chatim (cf. Xatim), which is now Cyātī in the Konkani language; the word was a Portuguese appellation for "trader" derived from the local word Śreṣṭhin. Daivajña Brāhmaṇa and Gomantaka Daivajña Brāhmaṇa are sometimes abbreviated as DB and GDB respectively.
The exact reason,why they are called Daivajna is debatable. Yet it is quite possible that it was Vadirajatirtha who bestowed the appellation Daivadnya onto them when many of them adopted Madhwa religion under leadership of Vadiraja,whom the aforesaid had gifted an idol of Hayagriva.
Daiva jānati iti daivajñaḥ - is literally translated as the one who knows the fate is Daivadnya or "the one who knows about God is Daivadnya", and can be interpreted as the one who knows about the future is a Daivadnya; or the one is well versed in Śilpaśāstra and can craft an idol of God is called a Daivadnya .
In Vedas, Taittariya Samhita, Shatapatha Brahmana, sage Kashyapa is recorded as an eminent artisan.His book Kashyapa Samhita,along with Bhrigu Samhita and Maya Samhita recognises Daivadnya as assistant engineer. Daivadnya is mentioned as the title of the assistant engineer.Their work was like that of a draughtsman or evaluator.It is said that astrology began from this class of ancient vedic Daivadnyas.So the term Daivadnya became equivalent to astrologer.Even though there are no reference of people of this modern caste practising only astrology in past few centuries,it is probable that the caste name has come from the ancient Daivadnyas mentioned in the texts above. Though it was not a caste but just a profession it is quite possible that their descendants called themselves Daivadnyas too.
Historians believe that the Daivadnya Brahmins originated with Sun- and Fire-worshipping priests, analogous to the Brahmins. These priests were mentioned in ancient Hindu scriptures such as Bhaviṣya Puraṇa,Viṣṇupuraṇa, and Mahabharata.[citation needed] They crafted an idol of the sun god Surya; hence they are called Murtikara.These sun-worshipper priests were called Magas. 
Historians Viṭhṭhala Mitragotri, Sridhara Veṅkaṭesa Ketkara, Paṇduraṅga Puruṣottama Siroḍkara and Ba. Da. Satoskar have concluded that Seṭs are descendants of the Bhojakas and have inherited the art of crafting an idol from the Bhojakas. Bhojakas are also called Gaṇakas, which is synonymous with Daivajña. Daivajñas are descendants of Bhojakas, who migrated to Goa in the fourth or sixth century AD with a Kshatriya tribe called Bhojas.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ichhadhari Prashant (talk • contribs) 06:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2024 

message: Peshwa era source is categorising them as shudras,this community started calling them as brahmins recently as per the sources.Thier own website is associating themself with Gaud Saraswat brahmin's Mutt(Smartha mutt) and justifying thier claim.There is no verdict of any high level vedic bodies like Kashi pandits on this community as in the case of shenvi sub-division of GSB.There is no favourable verdict of shankaracharya as in the case of Yajurvedi desastha,Padhe karhade and CKP.probably court too denied thier brahmin status(verdict was status quo).Historically they were called sonars or mentioned as Ratakara(sankrit:Mixed origin).So discussion is required as the article should be in the range NPOV.I can point out some caste push source with primary sources and probably will add secondary sources but not a single secondary source is associating them will brahmin.What's your take on this @Jonathansammy and @LukeEmily as I saw you moving this caste from daivadny to daivadny brahmin.Hope you can share that information which may help in developing this article.
Regards,
Fadnavis Rajeshfadnavis (talk) 17:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Varna status Ambiguity 

message: As suggested by  above, I would like to formally propose the renaming of the article as Sonar (caste), keeping all alternate names within brackets in the lede as usual. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 07:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: I wonder who decides on the caste name for a wikipedia article. Jonathansammy (talk) 20:25, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: , not just caste articles, any article name is given by the editor who creates the article, as you are already aware! In case the name is not appropriate, any editor may propose a new name, which is accepted in case consensus is achieved among experienced editors. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 13:11, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Renaming the article as Sonar (caste)  

message: 122.171.238.55 (talk) 11:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 13:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2024