Talk:Estonian pirates

message: *Hey! I knew that I had came across reading about Estonian vikings several times, and not so much about "Estonian Pirates". so I took my time and looked it up. And it looks like there are no basis whatsoever to be concerned like User:Berig has been.
So here it comes. An interesting fact is that Estonian Vikings are mentioned in Heimskringla p.147 in the History of the Norse Kings according to "A Brief History of the Vikings" by Gwyn Jones. Interesting is the fact as well that came out, Estonian Vikings in Estonian were/are called Vikerlased. 
The books: 
*The Northern Crusades by Eric Christiansen. ISBN-13: 978-0140266535 Estonian Vikings on page 36
*A History of Pagan Europe by Prudence Jones;  ISBN 0415091365 Estonian Vikings on page 166:
*Nordic Religions in the Viking Age  by Thomas A. Dubois; ISBN 0812217144;  Estonian Vikings, on page 177:
*A Brief History of the Vikings: The Last Pagans or the First Modern Europeans? ISBN 0786715995 from Back Matter: Heimskringla, p.147, uses the term viking here, even though the captors are later revealed to be Estonian.
*A History of the Vikings by Gwyn Jones ISBN-13: 978-0192801340 on page 167 The Scandinavian Community: speaks of trading towns of the Vikings: the Estonian Truso among the Swedish Birka, Norwegian Skiringssal (Kaupang) etc. 
*Encyclopedia of World Biography By Paula Kay Byers, Suzanne Michele Bourgoin; ISBN 0787625515; Estonian Vikings  on Page 491
*Mother of Kings by Poul Anderson; ISBN-13: 978-0765345028;  An Estonian viking. on Back Matter 
*Cassell's Encyclopaedia of World Literature By S. H. Steinberg, J. Buchanan-Brown ISBN 0688002285; Estonian Vikingson Page 222
*Folklorica (Uralic & Altaic)  by Peter Voorheis  ISBN-13: 978-0700709410; on Page 213:the living conditions of the Estonian Vikings on Page 215:...the Estonian Vikings at sea; on Page 216: deals with Estonian Viking times
*World Encyclopedia of Contemporary Theatre: Europe by Don Rubin; ISBN-13: 978-0415251570; The Estonian Vikings in Estonian: Vikerlased
*My Several Journeys Book One by Elizabeth Mulford ISBN-13: 978-1414064604  Estonian Vikings on page 127
 
*Historical Dictionary of Estonia; ISBN 0810849046; Estonian Vikings - Page 517
This should be enough for now to end the ethnic bias here and call the article about the traders and raiders from the shores of the eastern Baltic Vikings as well on WP.
Thanks!--Termer 09:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent work! Martintg 09:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Browsing contemporary litterature, you can find thousands of references to Vikings this and Vikings that, without any other than populist content. If you want to change the definition of a Viking, please go first to the respective article about them. --Drieakko 12:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

text: There certainly were Scandinavian settlements in the eastern Baltic sea, but the attached map is really careless work. --Drieakko 05:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: second round

message: So here is one how they teach kids in Norway about the vikings from Estonia. At the school of Avaldsnes, the town thats named after the Norwegian king Augvald, the place of the Viking Garden (Vikinggården). The Olav Trygvassons saga in Norwegian: Da de seilte østover havet, kom det vikinger fra Estland og røvet dem...Olav Trygvassons saga at School of Avaldsnes :when they sailed on the Baltic sea came the  vikings from Estonia and robbed them.--Termer 06:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There certainly were Scandinavian settlements in the eastern Baltic sea, but the attached map is really careless work. --Drieakko 05:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Scandinavian sources

message: Thanks for bringing up WP:CIV. Would you explain why this article has been chosen an unreferenced title that is in it's essence an ethnic slur? Also, I believe applying any meanings on Viking on ethnic bases is not appropriate for WP purposes. In that sense, thanks for drawing my attention to the all the sources out there regarding Polynesian Vikings. And last but not least, I still believe it's not appropriate to call up any editors directly into a dispute. There is a procedure for that on WP, WP:RFC. --Termer 15:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As for the name of the article, I thought the subject was so obscure there could not possibly be a conventional English name for it, which there is not. If you interprete it as an "ethnic slur", I can assure you that it was hardly my intention. There are BTW people who find "Viking" to be an ethnic slur (User:Dan Koehl), so I don't understand what you are trying to change here. As for the ethnic connotations of "Viking" it is neither your decision nor mine, but we have to abide by definitions in reliable sources like the American Heritage Dictionary and Merrion-Webster, per WP:reliable sources. As for calling up interested editors, it is perfectly acceptable to announce disputes to interested parties, but what is much less acceptable is the way you have belittled their opinions.--Berig 17:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

text: Ah, so we're on our way to that Polynesian Vikings article after all, since it makes every bit as much sense as Estonian Vikings. That means we can just go and replace every article using the term "raider" and "pirate" with Viking thereafter, wonderful! Regardless, something akin to Viking Age Estonian Raiders would be far more specific and thus appropriate. :bloodofox: 17:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because the pirate sense of viking is limited in time and space to northern Europe during the early middle ages.--victor falk 18:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This whole Polynesian Vikings thing is a complete straw man. There is active research on Vikings in Estonia and Estonian academics regularly participate in conferences concerning Vikings, as this conference program shows . Martintg 19:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That is not what the proposed article is about. It is, instead, about Viking-like Estonian pirates who are of a non-Germanic culture. This is why the same decision would apply to Viking Age Polynesian Raiders. :bloodofox: 22:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No it wouldn't, there are real connections between Scandinavian vikings and Estonian vikings, that simply do not exist with Polynesians. Geographically the Baltic Sea was a part of the hinterlands of the Viking Era and culturally the two groups shared many features, and was culturally distinct from mainland Estonia. Many of the inhabitants of the Estonia islands like Saaremaa were themselves settlers from Skandinavia who most likely arrived a couple of centuries earlier but assilimated to some degree into the local environment, as the most recent research shows. This is why Estonian academics are invited year after year to conferences on Vikings to present their latest research, while Polynesian academics are not. Martintg 00:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While they were close by and there was some integration going on, I still have no idea why you are so hell bent on using a word that has a clear definition that does not apply to a certain group of people. Again, these people were not culturally Norse and even "Pirate" is a far more appropriate term for them considering this. What you need to realize is that this is the English Wikipedia and thus we use English words in the way that they are defined in English. A metaphorical term that compares a certain peoples to other peoples does them no favor. These people were of a distinct culture and should be recognized as it, not compared to another nearby culture who are better known. I frankly find that insulting to the Estonian raiders. What we need are specifics. That was exactly my point with the mentioning of so-called "Polynesian Vikings." There's a better term for these raiders too. :bloodofox: 00:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Germanic as in culture not race. Do you have a Third Reich reference for that too? In English, we also have the term bless which is a Germanic term that originally meant to sprinkle something with blood. My point? We're speaking modern English. Practically anyone who hears you say "Viking" will think precisely of seafaring Norsemen attacking coastal societies. Why? Because they're familiar with the definition of the term. They will usually have (a lot of) misconceptions but, otherwise, that's simply how it's defined in English. :bloodofox: 01:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A culture that was shared by the people living on the Islands of Estonia back in the Viking Age. You obviously believe that these Estonian vikings don't fit the criteria, I suggest you attend one of the many seminars on the Viking Age and argue your points with the many Estonian academics sure to be attending, the program guides are available here  Martintg 01:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The American Heritage Dictionary says: n.   A member of any of the peoples of medieval Scandinavia.  Compare all you like, I am not here to theorize. Are you suggesting that Estonia is Norse? Here's where the Modern English language comes in again.. :bloodofox: 01:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

text: *I hate to repeat this but what did the dictionary say about the Estonian vikings? the term that has come up since the Icelandic sagas and is printed in modern English by native English speakers in those books and encyclopedias listed above? --Termer 01:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

text: *Not to mention that, even in modern English, "viking" and "pirate" are synonyms--victor falk 01:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Both Berig and bloodofox hang their arguments on a single line entry in American Heritage Dictionary. Well I'm just back from the local library where they have the full version of the Oxford English Dictionary, the complete 22 volumes that takes 2 metres of shelf space. :) I looked up "Viking". Historically, the word means "the practice of marauding or piracy", derived from the Icelandic. The term came into English usage in 1864, where "Viking" was the pirate vessel and the "Vikinger" was the sea pirate, the evolved into "Wikings", meaning pirates, in 1883. That developed into two current meanings of "Viking", the first refers to the populist meaning of "one of those Scandivanian adventurers who practiced piracy at sea, and depredations on land, in northern and Western Europe", and the second meaning for general use: "a warlike pirate or sea rover". Martintg 02:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Marting, you are being off-topic since you are discussing etymology, while you should be discussing the meaning of the word in modern English. I have also pointed out Merrion-Webster's dictionary which is online. There are consequently two standard dictionaries which give a much more narrow definition than the one you present.--Berig 08:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so, the etymology was discussed first followed by the two current meanings. Martintg 10:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, your source only gives that meaning in the context of Scandinavians. As I have shown with American Heritage Dictionary and Merriam-Webster, the trait "Scandinavian" in the English word Viking is not just connotative, it is in fact denotative, which makes the word exceptionally unsuited as the part of a title on Estonians.--Berig 14:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

text: [edit conflict]Maybe it is the purpose of an encyclopedia to examine the broad definitions of a term, in contrast to a dictionary? And since when is etymologogy irrelevant to the meaning of a word?!? Especially when that word is used in a history article? That is a lack of historical perspective inadequate for the editing of a history article.--victor falk 10:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is not a usage guide where we try to correct the meaning of a word in the English language by telling the reader what a word "should" mean because it has meant so before. Etymology is important, but only as the part of an etymology section.--Berig 14:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody says that viking should be a synonym of pirate, it is in the modern English language. Several sources clearly show that, let it be it is a secondary meaning nowadays, that not all dictionaries have as definition. Like the one on your shelf for instance.--victor falk 14:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This secondary meaning of yours is so rare that it is ignored by two major dictionaries. Do you seriously mean that we should define Buccaneers, Privateers and Corsairs as "Vikings"? I don't believe so since "Viking" is too ethnically specific.--Berig 14:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary section break 2

message: :The whole viking thing and the word it self in modern English is based on Icelandic sagas, saying that these are not reliable sources, we should go forward and delete the entire history of Vikings including the word itself that has been written in English since the rehabilitation of vikings perhaps?  So, once it seems that in your opinion the word Viking has been monopolized and copyrighted in modern English we should just call the article Vikinger fra Estland according to Icelandic sagas and etc. refers to...
:I don't agree with your opinion that it's OK to call up other editors directly to a dispute and refuse to follow your example and get here about 5-10 editors who'd  support the suggestion made by  Martintg
:Regarding Polynesian Vikings, even though the term seems to be introduced in modern times unlike the Estonian Vikings that is based on the old Scandinavian sagas. surely there should be something on WP that explains what is this Polynesian Vikings all about.--Termer 17:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS. Thats fine that the ethnic slur was not your intention. I'd suggest being more careful while including modern national names into titles on WP--Termer 17:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I object to "Vikinger fra Estland". It should be Vikingar från Estland according to Icelandic sagas & etc... (:--victor falk 18:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arbitrary sectin break 3

message: proposal withdrawn--victor falk 17:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I feel pretty sure there was a word for the whole baltic states, like Gårdarike, Serkland, Miklagård, Vendland, Saxland , Bretland, Valland, Sikelm, Holmgard, I might be wrong but I strongly recall reading it somewhere.--victor falk 16:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Norse had many names for various parts of the Baltic states, like Virland, Eistland, Lifland, Eysyssel, Adalsyssla, Seimgalir, etc.--Berig 17:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, I was thinking of Virland.--victor falk 18:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

text: I admit, I didn't click on the map... Maybe this should be mentioned in the Estland dismabiguation page?--victor falk 17:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think Termer's new suggestion is acceptable. However, there is no attestation of the name Eistland before the 10th century, unless you connect the name to Tacitus' Aesti.--Berig 17:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't like "ancient seafarers warriors", it's not search friendly and it is a typical wishy-washy compromise mouthful of idiosynchratic wikineologism. If sources commonly calls them "vikings", that's what we should also.--victor falk 18:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While it may be a bit of a mouthful, Ancient Estonian Seafaring Warriors is probably the best compromise. While Berig objects to the use of "viking" because he believes it has certain connotations, Termer also objects to "pirates" because it has certain connotation as well. It is the nature of Wikipedia that wishy-washy compromise rules the day, with any two random editors having three separate opinions, and this whole thing will probably be revisited by another group of editors 12 months later, and have exactly the same discussion :). Also, as far as serach terms go, we still have the redirects, anyone searching for "Estonian vikings" or "Estonian pirates" will still find the article. Martintg 20:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I am fine with this proposal but offended that you didn't additionally call my proposal specifically wishywashy and random. Then again I suppose I will see you in 12 months. :bloodofox: 22:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: well, before this Ancient Estonian Seafaring Warriors gets too much attention I'd need to point out that it was meant to be a joke of course. It was meant to be a wishy-washy compromise mouthful of idiosynchratic wikineologism exactly like victor falk pointed out. Even if the article would be renamed accordingly, it wouldn't stay there for long because it would be a ridiculous title. The best practical compromise I can think of at the moment would be nominating this article for deletion and including the facts in a subchapter of Ancient_Estonia#Early_Middle_Ages. Because the current title is an unreferenced ethnic slur that refers to the modern national name of the country, getting over with WP:PROD should go smoothly--Termer 07:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: When I first wrote this article it dealt a few accounts of uncontroversial piracy, which was in no way intended to hurt the feelings of anyone. I am sure that very few people would be hurt in their national feelings by articles like Buccaneer, Corsair, Varangian and Viking. Now, you have expanded this article beyond recognition so that it covers a lot of other things, and claim that "pirate" is an ethnic slur. I hope that you are aware of the fact that there are people who consider "Viking" to be an ethnic slur as well.--Berig 08:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if you say a few accounts of uncontroversial piracy, in modern English piracy means first of all software piracy, and Estonians are real people living up there in Northeastern Europe. So please have the title renamed to something that is more specific and not that controversial. Thanks!--Termer 15:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I was talking of the name Eistland not the name Esthonia. Thanks for pointing what may be the first attestation of the name Esthonia.--Berig 08:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  These are different names in your opinion? Well, please let me point out that the difference is, one is Latin another Germanic spelling of the same name. Exactly like Sweden/Sverige is the same name one spelled in English another in Swedish.--Termer 15:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No, but they are not the same, but they are related in the way that they may be based on the same root. The English form of Sverige was Sweorici but it is nowadays obsolete, like Sweoðeod which was the English form of Sviþioð. Sweden is based on the same root, but is a somewhat different name.--Berig 13:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 
[[nosuchlink|Vikings of >"Baltgård"<]]


message: got something here Historical Dictionary of Estonia; p. 1; ISBN 0810849046: 1050 Estonians begin trading and raiding Viking expeditions...So to make sure the vikings would not be confused with "Scandinavians from Estonia" per Berig, at the same time considering the good points of Pieter Kuiper, Martintg, victor falk etc. , isn't it most obvious that the article should be called according to the dictionary: Estonian Viking Expeditions ?--Termer 05:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why haven't we thought of this earlier? Support.--victor falk 06:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Excellent! /Pieter Kuiper 07:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just in case Berig and bloodofox aren't happy with that title, Viking Age Estonians might be another possibility. Martintg 08:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Martintg, I think Viking Age Estonians would not work because the only Estonians that were going on the expeditions were the ones from islands, Henry of Livonia's Oeselians, he speaks of them having a fleet of viking ships. The second reason: the viking age in Scandinavia was over, the countries were Christianized by the time the raids from the eastern shores of the Baltic sea were still going on.--Termer 15:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree w/ Termer. I think that Estonian viking expeditions is both a good compromise and an even better title. Just as long as it isn't Ancient people from the eastern littoral area of the Baltic Sea that illegally took other people's property without asking nicely first... Then you'll have to pry my battleaxe from my dead, cold fingers(:.. --victor falk 15:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The name "Estonian Viking expeditions" is less ambiguous and more acceptable than "Estonian Vikings".--Berig 13:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Looks like we have achieved concensus here for Estonian viking expeditions. Martintg 18:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I think the name is quite good.--Berig 19:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

text: Okay, I'll strike it out as you suggest, I hope Irpen doesn't report me to WP:ANI for doing it. As for the capitalisation, this should be corrected in the article text accordingly. Martintg 03:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Estonian Viking Expeditions

message: how about renaming Estonian pirates using Old Norse like they were mentioned originally? The current consensus Estonian viking expeditions would be fine I guess but it still refers to Estonians, at the time when Esthland and the "vikings" from there mentioned in the sagas meant the lands across the Baltic sea and denoted proto Estonians and Curonians. For example it would be quite a stretch to call the curonians that were also active traders-raiders -Estonians. therefor if we'd go with Víkingr frá Esthland it could be explained in the article that Esthland refers to literally East-Land and víkingr to the "viking style traders-raiders" from the East-Land mentioned in the Icelandic sagas. How about that? thanks!--Termer (talk) 08:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Why not just go with the original Estonian viking expeditions (note the capitalisation of "viking") that everyone agreed with originally, or even Estonian viking raiders. Martintg (talk) 11:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I think using a non-English name would cause a lot of opposition because of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Why not name the article Oesilians? That is a less controversial name that could be used.--Berig (talk) 17:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I have to agree with Berig, Wikipedia naming conventions would make Víkingr frá Esthland difficult to use. But I think Berig's suggestion of using Oeselians is a good one, and since Oeselians is a stub, all we need to do is merge this article into it. Martintg (talk) 20:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree.--Berig (talk) 14:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Víkingr frá Esthland