Talk:W. Cleon Skousen

message: I added a couple of too-long-of-quotes. Which I did because it seemed the article suffered from contributors' piling on detailed criticisms of Skousen without keeping any eye out for when commentators have extolled him--for example with regard a contributor's having cherry picked out of Mark Hemingway's commentary Hemingway's blistering criticism of Naked Communist while not mentioning that Hemingway lauded other writings by Skousen.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 06:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotations I added 

message: The publications section should indicate the original dates of publication, as well as the more recent reprints. For example The 5,000 Year Leap was first published in 1981. And the current list of publications shows a 2nd. edition for The Making of America, which was first published in 1982 as a follow-up to The 5,000 Year Leap.
BlueMesa171 (talk) 21:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Publications 

message: The Wiki article on Cleon Skousen contains many comments or quotations which are attributed to various individuals who included those comments/quotes in their online articles or books.  
In the interest of accuracy, it should be noted that the ultimate source for those quotations is documents appearing in two FBI HQ main files on W. Cleon Skousen, namely, his FBI personnel file which is FBI HQ file 67-69602 and a supplementary FBI file concerning Skousen's post-FBI activities, i.e. FBI HQ file 94-47468 -- which total about 1928 pages.
I was the first person to obtain both of those files via an FOIA request. I then wrote a lengthy report about their content in March 2007 which I posted online. The quotations which appear in the Wiki article came from my report.
I received hostile emails from Skousen admirers who claimed I was lying about his FBI service record, or that I was quoting documents "out of context".  So I then updated my report by scanning copies of particularly significant documents and copying them into my report.  I also updated my report again in order to respond to falsehoods posted online about my report by one of Cleon Skousen's sons.
Numerous people have contacted me as a result of seeing my online report on Skousen, including writers, researchers and academics. I have supplied them with additional information and, in several instances, they sent me first drafts of their proposed online articles or sections of a forthcoming book which pertained to Cleon Skousen.
In summary --- the provenance of many of the quotations and comments appearing in the Wiki article about Cleon Skousen is actually from my report on Skousen which was based upon first-time-released FBI files. My online report may be seen here:
https://sites.google.com/site/ernie124102/skousen  Ernie1241 (talk) 16:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ernie1241, will you read my section under "Link to FBI Vault" below and possibly source your pages in there?  I kinda' think that if did a FOIA in 2007 there's good odd's they'd be in there, and that would allow you to link to the primary source, which would solve the concerns you mentioned.--Mrcolj (talk) 19:04, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes and Comments in Wiki Article 

message: An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:36, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC 

message: Another editor has made several edits to the article, some of which are problematic. I am not reverting the edits at this time, but other editors might do so.
In several edits, the editor material and gave as the reason that the material deleted was "biased." However, that is not necessarily a valid reason to remove material in Wikipedia.
Wikipedia has a rule regarding Neutral Point of View. However, that rule relates to the way material is presented, not to the substance of the material itself. In several edits, the editor seemed to be simply removing material that was "negative" regarding the subject of the article, Cleon Skousen. Those edits were probably not proper to the extent that the removed materials had been sourced and had clearly indicated that it was the source that was making the critique of Skousen. Sources are are allowed to be biased, and Wikipedia articles are allowed to report the statements or opinions of biased sources. A bias in a source in and of itself does not violate the Wikipedia rule on Neutral Point of View. The fact that the result of including negative material in an article on a person may result in a negative impression of that person does not mean that such material is objectionable from the standpoint of Wikipedia's rules and guidelines, even if that source is clearly biased.
Instead, Neutral Point of View means that Wikipedia presents the material -- some of it clearly biased -- without taking a position as to whether Wikipedia agrees or disagrees with the biased material. Famspear (talk) 18:30, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Anyone coming to this article from the outside would see it as an anti-Skousen article.  It's not that a bunch of facts are presented for the reader to decide from.  These are clearly almost entirely negative facts phrased almost entirely negatively.  Rather than saying "he was a libertarian" it says "he was against civil rights, taxes, unions, and welfare for little old ladies whose husbands died serving our country?"  Yeah, that's NPOV.--Mrcolj (talk) 19:20, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment regarding certain edits removing "bias" 

message: Since this article was written the FBI has published it's Vault website, with interesting and oft-requested files (Area 51, Elvis, McCarthy, etc).  It has 14 PDFs full of documents related to Skousen, perhaps including the full "2,000 pages" referenced in the article.  There should be a link to this source, hopefully then removing the need for one of the speculative secondary sources.  The link is here.  Please, someone who has a moment, be bold and write this link, or multiple direct references to its contents, into the article.  --Mrcolj (talk) 19:00, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Link to FBI's Vault 

message: I found the article to display consistent bias not only in content, but sources for quotation.  In addition, the sources for quotation are largely editorial and represent harsh critics of the subject, but the quotations are often presented as factual or the sources are presented as neutral.  The article lacks any neutral sources at all.
Issues:
The article begins to deride his career by indicating his work as special agent at the FBI was mainly clerical and administrative.  While this is possibly correct, it just begins a long string of focus on minimizing his career and achievements and attacking his point of view, not from a neutral point of view, but from the opposite side.  Citations are almost exclusively selected from his harshest critics without presenting anything of the other side.  Often insinuations of negative character are made, but their significance not expounded upon.  One example is in the first section, which states "ironically, the Skousen file would come to more than 2000 pages" at the FBI, without indicating why that is of interest at all.  It insinuates some type of negative character of the man, without specifying what is meant by it, or if the content was of a criminal nature or what.
Later in that same section, it indicates that Skousen was dismissed after the police raided an illegal poker establishment that the Mayor just happened to be at during the raid.  Many, if not most, would consider this an act of courage in fighting corruption, even when one's own boss is involved in the corruption, but the article instead begins quoting random Skousen opponents about how his enforcement was "Gestapo-like" and how he was a hypocrite in his anti-communism because he ran the police department in a communistic fashion, etc.  There are 4 o 5 irrelevant and unrelated quotes as to how Skousen was one of the greatest spenders in salt lake city government" and a "master of half truths" etc.  True or not, these critical comments seem out of place, and are irrelevant to his department's raid that happened to catch the Mayor involved in illegal activity.
The same section goes on to indicate that he served as Field Director for the American Security Council, but indicates that there was an "increasing perception of paranoia" resulting in his abrupt termination.  The source cited is known to be an extremely harsh Skousen critic, and notable anti-conservative editorial author and professor by the name of Sean Wilentz, who is writing in a noted leftwing publication (The New Yorker).  The overwhelming bulk of citations in the article follow the same pattern of quoting only sources known to be heavily biased not only against the subject, but against the whole school of thought that he tends to represent.  There is no balancing perception presented and these sources are treated as if they were neutral or authoritative, when they are in fact political opponents of the subject of the article, who in many cases themselves are considered radical or fanatic, and deniers of communist activities and atrocities by their own political rivals and critics.
The next section begins with the phrase "After losing his police job..." which while correct, displays a wording that seems to demonstrate contempt on the part of the author, especially since it is not relevant to the statement that follows it.  The section immediately goes on to quote a Time magazine editorial by a noted liberal author as describing a new group as "an exemplar of the far-right ultras."  While it is true that the hard-left characterized them this way, and many of their opponents on the liberal side of the GOP did so as well, in order to marginalize them; the constant and repetitive citations of quotes to the effect shows no consideration for the possible validity of some or any of their ideas, or what they really believed and how it was actually viewed by the mainstream.  The article simply seems to be laced with a long stream of quotes of people calling the subject names, and asserting how radical the organizations he was involved are supposed to have been.  It comes off as more of an attempt to discredit the subject, rather than to simply inform the public about the man and his career, including the various controversies it entailed.  It is clear that some of his views are not mainstream, but one can find far less aggressive attempts to discredit, and softer and fairer treatment of men such as Nazi general Erwin Rommel on Wikipedia.  
A clear attempt is made to paint him as a racist by insinuating that he wrote the article "The Communist Attack on the Mormons" from a racist point of view, without discussing whether in fact the article does or does not contain open anti-black or racist statements, or simply indicates that some of that particular church's opponents were exploiting an obscure historical tenet to campaign against the reputation of a religion.  I found myself wanting clarification or more information regarding what he actually said.  
Again in the section "Political Life," it is said that "Skousen had support among many LDS people in the 60's and early 70's.  It then indicates that "however by 1979 the first presidency issued a letter against promoting Skousen in LDS church meetings."  While it is true that the leadership of the LDS church did issue such a letter, the LDS church issues such statements frequently in order to make clear that it does not endorse political candidates, authors or parties.  Frequently, when a Mormon person of significant popularity comes on the national stage (like Mitt Romney, Harry Reid, or Glenn Beck) the LDS church will occasionally issue such statements to remind members that such individuals are speaking for themselves, and not for the church.  The article ignores this and seems to insinuate that this was a special circumstance in the case of the subject.  My own father was a student of Skousen's in his religion classes at BYU and found some of his opinions on the church a little strange.  It is also possible the church was referring to some of his religious ideas in addition to, or instead of his political ones.  This is not explored or clarified in the article.
Quotation marks are used in an unprofessional way in the article to ridicule or insinuate falseness of certain things the subject is quoted as or credited with having said.  An example is the quotation marks around "irregularities" in the last paragraph of the Political Life section.  He resigned from an institute.  An unbiased statement would read "Skousen was a member of the Meadeau View Institute, but resigned citing irregularities in management," rather than "Skousen was a member of the Meadeau View Institute, but resigned citing "irregularities" in management."  The unneeded quotes insinuate mischievousness or strangeness about his citation, when there is no additional information provided as to why it might be a false accusation or anything of the sort.  There is more than one instance of this usage of questioning-quotations in the article.
In the same paragraph, the author takes the time to indicate that a student mentored by Skousen helped shape George Wythe University.  The author indicates it is a "private, unaccredited university."  Going so far as to examine the accreditation or lack thereof of a tiny university founded by a person who was simply inspired by or mentored by the subject of the article is hardly relevant in the context and content.  
In the Views section, it indicates that "Skoused disregarded all federal regulatory agencies."  This is a huge blanket statement, and I'm not aware of any case in which he made a clear blanket statement like that in any of this writings or published speeches.  It should be noted that the source for the statement is an unquestionably leftwing activist group the "Southern Poverty Law Center," which is an organization dedicated to discrediting anti-communists and other conservatives as if they were fringe or radical and dangerous to the public.  The group itself has been looked into for its own involvement in subversive activities and numerous commentary regarding its own communist party relationship exists all over the net.  This organization is hardly a source for neutral quotations on right wing or conservative groups, and the quote does not make any indication that the radical "watchdog" group is making this claim against the subject, but instead asserts the statement to be fact, using only that group's editorial critique as "proof."  This is not appropriate, and if the article was to be mentioned, the reader should be informed as to the nature of the source and its own political bias and background, rather than having it hidden in a footnote.  The section also indicates flatly that the subject wanted to "remove the walls separating church and state," which contradicts many published statements by the subject, and is nothing more than an accusation by a political opponent of his, yet the article states it leaving the impression that the subject himself declared such a desire, which is incorrect, or at least contrary to statements by the subject himself.  The article does not provide any proof or evidence that he held such a belief.
The article liberally uses quotes by Sean Wilentz, a contributing editor at the leftist publication "The New Republic," and friend of the Clintons (Wilentz is simply quoted as a Princeton University Historian in the article), or the far-left activist group "The Southern Poverty Law Center,"  which is presented as some sort of unbiased authority on right wing groups and "extremists".  Quotations appearing to be from conservative authors are chosen only from the liberal wing of the GOP and the more neoconservative publications, which has been obsessed (even according to many left wing authors - see salon.com for example) with marginalizing the conservative and anti-communist element from the GOP since the 1950's.  
A simple reading of the references section and the titles of the articles and books referenced leaves no question that biased sources were used almost exclusively in the article.  Some examples of the sources used are entitled "Fringe Mormon Group Makes Myths with Glenn Beck's Help" by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and "GenRolly Speaking: How Far Right Can We Go?.," "Rick Perry's radical right-wing reader," "Confounding Fathers:  The Tea Party's Cold War Roots," bye "historian" Sean Wilentz (The New Yorker).  "Romney's Radical Roots," from the National Review.  Etc.  
I generally don't agree with a good portion of Skousen's work, and the only real experience I have with him is that my father had been in one of his religion classes at BYU and disagreed with many of his ideas on that topic.  I have, however, read The Naked Communist and did not find it "extremist" or "hysterical" or any of that.  It makes a few statements I am not sure I agree with, but other than that is a fairly straight-forward overview of communist revolutionary behaviors and mostly sticks to publicly available direct quotes from Marx and other communists, as well as FBI supplied material, etc.  While some of his other work and statements could be possibly considered conspiracy theory type stuff, The Naked Communist, at least, has mostly material that is easily corroborated elsewhere from reliable sources.  That is my background on Skousen.  I simply ran into this article and noticed that it repeatedly quotes harsh leftwing editorial sources as fact rather than opinion of adversaries of the subject, and thought it read more like a harsh adversarial editorial in a leftwing political magazine or newspaper, more than a encyclopedia article.  I had just finished reading an article on Erwin Rommel and was shocked at how much more "fairness" was afforded to a Nazi general than to some conservative author who wrote a few anti-communist books and made a few speeches.  It stood out to me, and needs to be reviewed and cleaned up extensively.  There is no question that the subject is right of center and that a few of his positions or comments are controversial or conspiratorial, but the article reads like a long list of quotations of insults from leftwing authors regarding how he is an extremis, rather than an overview of the subject with both sides of the various controversies presented for the reader to consider.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pcito (talk • contribs) 23:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: It appears from the tone of your long screed that you are the one with problem understanding the concept of a neutral point of view. :The New Yorker, for example, is regarded throughout journalism as having one of the best and most reliable fact-checking staffs on the planet; and :The New Republic hasn't been left-of-center since sometime in the Carter Administration. And while the Southern Poverty Law Center is somewhat liberal, the consensus here is that they are an excellent and reliable source when discussing the right-wing fringes of U.S. politics. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:27, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I've gone ahead and put a "hat" on the long-winded screed. There's nothing in there of value to the discussion and it seems eerily similar to some of the other throwaway sockpuppets that have been appearing in various articles about right-wing groups and associated characters with the sovereign citizen movement and other anti-government conspiracy theory groups. Plus, it's incredibly out of date.Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 20:39, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article is One-sided and 3rd Party Opinions as Facts 

message: I too disagree with some of the tone of this article, but not because I think it is too biased against Skousen. Max Blumenthal in his highly acclaimed book "Republican Gomorrah: Inside the Movement that Shattered the Party" notes (p.332): <BLOCKQUOTE>Skousen's vocal support for the Far-right John Birch Society's claim that communists controlled President Dwight Eisenhower cost him the support of the corporate backers who had paid for his Red-bashing lecture tours. He went off  the radar for several years, returning during the late 1960s to accuse the Jewish Rothschild family of secretly bankrolling everyone from Ho Chi Minh to the civil rights movement. By the late 1970s, even the Church of Latter Day Saints  distanced itself from Skousen and his conspiracy theories. His work fell through the margins and might have disappeared entirely had Beck not revived it, turning The 5000 Year Leap into the bible of the Tea Party movement.</BLOCKQUOTE> Skousen was a far-right conspiracy theorist. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 22:27, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100425082805/http://www.skousen2000.com:80/biography.htm to http://www.skousen2000.com/biography.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Given that there are plenty of references to this guy being a total crackpot, why is Wikipedia failing to refer to them?  It is totally unclear to me what 'contributions' this individual made to society; I suppose he should be on Wikipedia simply because of his notoriety, but the full spectrum of views on his legacy should be reflected in this article - and most of those views seem to be that he was a total crank.
Is there any reason this article is so... obsequious?Ambiguosity (talk) 14:21, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Looks like a duck, walks like a duck... 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The intro paragraph mentions "His children Mark Skousen and Jo Ann Skousen run FreedomFest, an annual convention sponsored by Charles G. Koch." I believe the correct information to be "nephew and spouse" from a quick look at their about page 144.132.214.172 (talk) 09:09, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Unless I'm missing something, I see nothing on that page which purports to proide the relationship of Mark and Jo Ann to each other, or of them to W. Cleon.  All Ii see are their photos and their names. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:07, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  FreedomFest information.