Talk:Rhythm and blues/Archive 1

message: First of all, no, I am not spreading around Mariah Carey/JLO fancruft. They are both R&B musicians and they were not mentioned in the article at all. They didn't fit into any other section in the article and we needed a section noting the mainstream acceptance of R&B in the mid/late 90s that has helped transform mainstream music into practically meaning R&B nowdays. JLO and Mariah Carey fit in there, so I created 
{I DRIVE}}
Rather than describing a recognizable musical genre, rhythm and blues has come to be used to indicate whatever contemporary music is popular with African-Americans. 
Surely not? Hip hop is popular with African-Americans. but is distinct from R&B. Andy G 20:59 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
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This article is quite unsatisfying. "Rhythm and blues (or R & B) is a musical marketing term ... attached to ... whatever form of contemporary music is popular with African-American pop musicians and audiences." So it's not a genre as such but just a marketing term for different genres over time?! 
"In its first manifestation, rhythm and blues was a black version of a predecessor to rock and roll." So what is the (white?) predecessor to rock and roll which is referred to here?
Is modern R&B (pop "influenced by hip-hop, funk, and soul music") sufficiently different from the "first manifestation" to warrant separate articles? There's a separate article for soul music which says it "is fundamentally rhythm and blues". I'm not very knowledgable about this and trying to learn. Nurg 09:17, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: WTH?!

message: Thanks for the compromise, TUF-KAT. Talking to you is much easier than Freddy ranting. 
*Agreed with the edit on the Carribean influenced R&B section. I wasn't really sure if there was an exact term for it. 
*"Extinct" was probably not the right term for it, but can we please seperate the subgenres that are used more today from the genres that are not used as much? It is a bit jarring to see new jack swing with more contemporary subgenres.
*Urban Latino - Can you please restore it? Evidence of its usage can be seen . Another link 
*Hip-Pop - Can we please restore Dirty Pop as "Hip-Pop" or include both terms? I'm aware of Freddy's usage of the word, but pop rap is a more accurate description of that term nowdays I think. Here is a link that described Justin Timberlake as hip-pop, . Here is a link that describes the Black Eyes Peas as hip-pop.  OmegaWikipedia 04:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: No one is ranting; I am just trying to make sure that accurate and factual information is presneted in this, and any other, article. "Hip-pop" is, again, not used to properly describe singers; the reason the Black Eyes Peas as are described as "hip-pop" is because they are a hip-hop group with strong mainstream pop influences; i.e. a "pop rap" group. As such, they really shouldn't be on this page; they're rappers, not singers (Fergie excluded, although Lauryn Hill singing doesn't warrant a mention of The Fugees here either).--FuriousFreddy 04:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Replies

message: There are no references or images.  slambo 17:48, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Delisted GA 

message: There's a sentence in the contemporary R&B section that runs, "R&B today defines a style of African-American music..." So let me get this straight, R&B can only be performed by black people from the United States? --Lairor 05:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's not what it says.  R&B is a style of African-American music; lots of people perform it, just like there are black people that play klezmer, which is clearly Jewish music, there are Sri Lankans who play calypso, which is clearly Trinidadian, and Italians who play Irish folk music. Tuf-Kat 05:36, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "African-American music" 

message: In early '60s UK R&B was a term for electric blues, for example Muddy Waters, Jimmy Reed and John Lee Hooker. Enthusiasm for this music led to Blues-rock and development of British rock, with both The Rolling Stones and The Who using the label. This usage should be covered in the article. ..dave souza, talk 09:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Maximum R&B

message: Louis Jordan should be mentioned as an important influence on the development of this genre, shouldn't he?  Badagnani 20:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Louis Jordan]] 

message: *Add some pictures, of famous r&b artists to give the article some colour. THE KING 15:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  TODO 

message: I don't know what's causing it, and don't have time to figure it out, but the EDIT links are messed up on this page ... clicking the link next to "original rhythm and blues" opened the "history" section for editing. Twang 01:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit Links messed up 

message: It seems odd that there are only sound samples of more recent songs that have been classified as R&B, but no samples of the original style of music that defined the genre. This gives a very distorted view of what R&B is, expecially if people don't bother to read the years that the songs were recorded. One of the experts here should dig up sound samples from the 1950s and 1960s to balance it out.Spylab 00:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sound sample section needs improvement

message: Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Re-Review and In-line citations 

message: I have a CD with some clearly identifiable R&B tracks on it from the 1920s.  What the article seems to have missed out is that R&B in it's earliest years was simply solo blues artists with other rhythm players sitting in. Blues and rhythm.  Geddit? :)
As for the 'R&B/Contemporary R&B' debate, of course they're completely different things.  There is no link between the two any more than there is a link between today's rap and the rapping of Isaac Hayes and Millie Jackson.  Heavy Metal owes more to R&B than Contemporary R&B does. Deke42 00:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  1940s? 

message: Are those links really necessary? I don't think they add much to the content..
*I agree. I think that under Wikipedia guidelines, they are considered spamlinks. I will delete them. I will also look at the See Also list to see if there's anything that doesn't need to be there. Spylab 16:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: This page is seriously lacking sources. Can someone please make it a broken page or whatever? There aren't any sources past the introduction, and there are no evidence at all for what is being said.
The page as a whole is just broken. It needs ALOT of work.
And BTW. This page is mainly referring to early 1940's/50's R&B, which is the basis of Rock n' Roll. It is very different than modern R&B. Though this is a problem. The main R&B page should be just a history of the term, and then branching off into different categories to define its meaning at different points in time.
I dont know how to use Wikipedia well though, I may post some stuff on here if i can figure it out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.247.76.181 (talk) 20:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: I am thrilled with how well this is shaping up. I have been researching this subject, and related items for at least a year. I was reluctant to mess with what was here before, but now... I hope those of you who are helping with the more sophisticated formating are satisfied with how things have been going. Thanks a bunch. Sometime soon, the article will need sections. Right now I'm thinking in terms of Setting the Stage, which would be WWII / early 40s, then start of the R&B period, early to mid fifties, mid to late 50s, etc. Alternatives? Comments? Steve Pastor (talk) 19:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Team Work

message: The article mentions the Billboard R&B chart in 1947, and then, in the next paragraph, mentions that that name was only used as a category starting from 1949. Should be reworded? Wwwhatsup (talk) 19:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Interesting delema...Billboard has all these years listed under one heading...Rhythm and blues and Hip Hop, or something like that. And the listings are continuous even through the Soul Music years. The pre R&B term for music made for and purchased by African Ameicans was "Race Records". But I'm not sure they called it the "Race charts". So, I don't know, maybe something about the record buying public made it a hit ??? Steve Pastor (talk) 20:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Doesn't the source say, quite specifically, that it was the Harlem Hit Parade prior to '49. A simple rewrite should suffice. Wwwhatsup (talk) 20:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

text: OK, well, I had a section on the instrumentation in Jordan's Tymphany Five, and it was removed. And of course if you want to talk about "style" or "sound", you have to talk about what instruments were used. I am seeing a pattern of evolving from jazz based blues with big band like playing and blues shouters, to the softer sound of vocal and doo wop groups. The other thing that will happen is the rise of "rock", then the "soul" sound. Do you think it would be better to try to work it into each section, or break it out into separate sections like instrumentation or over all style? The charts, of course, tell us what was most popular as each year goes by, and tastes change. I am thinking about a section on record labels, too, since most of them are now mostly forgotten. If anyone else has anything to contribute...Steve Pastor (talk) 20:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Charts

message: SpyLab just deleted this paragraph:
In April of 1956 three white men rushed the stage as Nat "King" Cole was performing in Birmingham, AL. One man reached Cole and hit him with a flying tackle, and then attempted to drag him off stage. Police officers swarmed over the three men, beating them with fists and nightsticks, and took them away in handcuffs. A shaken Cole, recovering in his dressing room, received an apology from the mayor of Birminghan and other officals, and was encouraged to continue his performance. Cole received a five minute long standing ovation when he returned to the stage. Although he did not resume the show, he did perform a second show for an all black audience.INTERRUPTED MELODY: THE 1956 ATTACK ON NAT "KING" COLE The attack was condemned from one end of the country to the other, and even the most ardent and diehard segregationists found the incident more than a little hard to swallow.
:In MAY be off topic, but I put it in the article because Carl Perkins was very worried, as was his brother, when they showed up to play what appeared to be an all black venue. And he was touring with a bunch of black performers. Perkins was worried that he would become the next Nat King Cole, or be shot by someone in the audience. He had been confronted in the past for making "black" music. I know that I have often rolled my eyes when someone brought race into a discussion of music, but these issues were clearly important to the people who made and performed the music. I think it would be a mistake to ignore it completely. Go Cat Go is due at the library soon, and I don;t want to waste time wrting text that will be deleted. Comments, please? Steve Pastor (talk) 16:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Racism and Music

message: There's a broken section at the bottom of the page: citations are scrambled...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.75.222.116 (talk) 08:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Technical problem with citations section 

message: Soul music was invented as a crossover of R&B and gospel, so I suggest moving Soul music from sub-genres to fusion genres. Netrat_msk (talk) 17:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  It may have come out of those, but now it's very distinct from both, which seems to indicate maybe it is it's own distinct sub-genre. -- Logical Premise Ergo? 15:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soul music 

message: how do you sign up  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.254.226.237 (talk) 20:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  sign up 

message: These things are problematic. Editors come along and put stuff in them with no justification, and they are often things that can't be found in the article itself. I support removal of ANY item in the INFO BOX that: isn't in the article, and/or doesn't have a reference. Is anyone aware of, and can share, guidelines for the Info Box? Steve Pastor (talk) 19:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Try WP:IBX. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Info Box 

message: Someone who has a good knowledge on the topic, clear up the genre table at the beginning of the article, especially section about "derivative forms", "subgenres" etc. It's obviously a nonsense to claim, for instance, "hip hop" is a derivative of rhythm and blues. -- 217.21.43.222 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 14:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In "New Blue Music", rock and roll is defined as a derivative of R&B, though "Icons of R&B and Soul" specifically underlines rock and roll wasn't a distinct musical form from R&B. Those two seem to be polar opposite opinions -- Appletangerine un (talk) 13:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clear up the genre table