Wikipedia talk:No original research/Archive 30

message: This is obviously going to go round and round in circles forever and ever and always, till death do us part, for heaven's sake amen. My sanity requires taking it off my watchlist. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enough 

message: The page just got unprotected again. Please do not express opinions through the editing of the policy. Bring concerns, disagreements, etc here to the talk page for discussion. The expression of opinions through editing instead of discussion is what has lead to this policy being page protected on multiple occasions. Let's talk things out instead of making opinionated edits. Vassyana (talk) 05:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Some amount of bold editing is required, which could be interpreted as the expression of opinion. But if it  an edit clearly hasn't stuck, leaving the wrong version for 24 hours to discuss the issue won't hurt anything in the long run. — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Please 

message: Are blogs by political candidates acceptable for their bio?. For example, if candidate A claims that they are the best candidate to elect, can we accept that as a primary source and write the sentence, 'Candidate A is the best candidate to elect' in their biography?. TwakTwik (talk) 03:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, that would be fine except that it would violate NPOV - you'd have to phrase it as "Candidate A says that they are the best candidate to elect." But that's not really a NOR question as such. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, thats exactly the edit I requested on Gary Weiss when admins referred me to this page and said I am wasting time. Go figure!! TwakTwik (talk) 07:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, blogs are not normally considered reliable sources at all... but in this case, I suppose it could be considered a "self-published" source (see WP:V and WP:RS).  It certainly would be against several Wikipedia policies and guidelines to say "Candidate A is the best candidate "... such a statement should indeed be attributed ("Candidate A states that he is the best candidate ").  I'm not sure if this is a NOR issue. Blueboar (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

text: An addendum... I took a look at the situation at the Gary Weiss article... your example is not quite apt for the debates that are raging at that article. Blueboar (talk) 22:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In that article, a Gary Weiss's blog itself was cited as source for the claim that he was threatened. That article has over 40-50% all references from Gary Weiss himself. Its indeed like saying 'Candidate A is the best candidate'. TwakTwik (talk) 05:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need Clarification 

message: In light of the recent revert history over the past week or so (see above), there is now much more impetus for all users to just adopt a 'screw it' attitude about policies and just edit as they wish. A clear minority of people who happen to have Admin 'powers' are blocking a clear consensus towards improvement of a convoluted and confusing policy, mainly consfusing by defining terms in a policy from one discipline that have different meanings in other disciplines. Defining such terms as a policy are wrong. That they aren't a clear definition that addresses all uses, or makes no attempt to clarify that these are only from one disciplines perspective and even still modified to be Wikipedia-unique terms is even more egregious. When the actions of a few dictate the resultant course of so many others, it's simply time to IGNORE ALL RULES, especially since it is a policy. wbfergus  Talk 18:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Unfortunate but true - the inability to make sensible edits to policy is very damaging, and the sorry state it has left our content policies in is only the most obvious flaw of it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

text: "Ignore all rules" is already in motion. The latest case of it being the abysmal disregard of WP:REVERT for WP:POINTy reasons. -- Fullstop (talk) 20:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[WP:IAR]] has more reasons to now to be the guiding policy 

message: Regarding the change of WP:PSTS back to a newly proposed form of WP:PSS here, for example, I do not see significant expression of consensus for this kind of change. Firstly, it goes back to over a year ago when the mention of tertiary sources gave a perspective on encyclopedic sources in the context originally set into motion by Jimmy Wales three years ago. This change was a very significant one that eliminated the examples of primary sources suggested by many participants in various areas of the wiki. It also placed secondary sources prior to primary sources in a way that appears likely to be even more confusing to readers that have not been directly involved in this discussion or who may not have closely analyzed the concept before. So I reverted here, leaving intact some other changes Vassyana made to the section on "Using sources".  
I noted two proposed sentences at the beginning of the section ("Appropriate sourcing is a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding which sources are most appropriate for an article is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on individual article talk pages."). I do think there's meaningful information in these sentences, but I don't believe it's adequate to stand by itself as a complete replacement for the current introduction to the section on PSTS. The proposed change really was a major one. ... Kenosis (talk) 16:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to substantively explain your objections in the draft discussion. Please explain why the conflation of secondary and tertiary sources is a problematic move. The only objection voiced about that was that some tertiary sources are good summaries, and the replacement includes such language. Secondary sources were moved first, because there was objection that the primary source section mentions them before the definition of secondary sources. How does it going first confuse the issue at all? Could you explain your objection about the introduction further? The extant introduction doesn't say anything of substance except to say there are three categories and that they're defined by the section. The revision is surely a significant one, but this is merely a further revision of the last proposed draft, accommodating the substantiated and reasonable objections raised. It has been repeatedly exposed to the broader community through RfCs and postings on the policy village pump. It has generated a broader agreement than anything else that's come on the table, including the preexisting version. Between the fact it was broadly advertised, that it's generated more support than other alternatives and that substantive objections have been addressed, it is your burden to provide well-explained objections. Vassyana (talk) 16:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I now see the discussion farther up on this page. Offhand, it seems like the two proposed sentences I mentioned just above have the potential to clarify a lot to those users who feel like they might be forced to make precise distinctions w.r.t. every single source, which AFAIK is not the intent of either PSS or PSTS. I do know that the addition of tertiary sources, a standard term in libraries, helped clarify questions like "what is Wikipedia?" and what are other encyclopedias and compilations of numerous sources, that are conceptually a step removed from secondary sources. The main usefulness of the two proposed sentences is, IMO, in clarifying that the distinctions are not hard-and-fast and that shared editorial judgment is a key component in allocating sources, especially in articles where different sources disagree with one another on particular issues. ... Kenosis (talk) 17:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Those sentences are nothing more than a mild variation of the text added by SlimVirgin to the end of the extant section. While the philosophical questions such as "What is Wikipedia?" are fascinating, I fail to see the need to address them in the NOR policy. Again, why is the conflation of secondary and tertiary sources problematic? Also, could you please answer the other questions? Vassyana (talk) 01:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look through the history of the project page, you'll see that people inserted such things as "Wikipedia is an X type of source". Fact is, there's editorial value-added in properly conceptualizing the "lay of the land" as far as sources, in terms of NOR and in terms of just-plain-editing-in-general. Indeed, this is why PSTS is a convenient and useful schema for libraries in conceptualizing the content that sits under their roof. As far as editing practice in wikipedia-- well, hey, if the consensus becomes that the "tertiary" perspective is counterproductive, I surely will not stand in the way of its removal. ... Kenosis (talk) 01:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Due to the long ranging discussions, I've looked through the history many times. I doubled checked to be sure, but as far as I can tell "Wikipedia is X kind of source" came up is tertiary sources were added to the policy. The mention of Wikipedia as a type of source arose with the introduction of tertiary sources, not the other way around. Could you please answer my other questions? Vassyana (talk) 16:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I also thought it worth mentioning that the standing version of policy does not source-type Wikipedia. Interestingly, you were the one who removed the mention of it from the policy. Vassyana (talk) 18:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Correct that I removed it. By far the most important issue was that WP is never a primary source. If it weren't for all the wrangling, I'd surely have inserted, or re-inserted, the sentence backing up both WP:V and WP:NOR that "Wikipedia is never to be a primary source of information".  As to the prior insertions by one or more other editors that, e.g., "Wikipedia is an X type of source", if you look thoroughly enough, you'll find them. I'm not going to go looking back through it again for this purpose. ... Kenosis (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: At this point, I'm a complete loss as to why you are objecting. Could you please answer my questions and elaborate? Vassyana (talk) 21:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: I also couldn't see the benefit of the changes, and it introduced some problematic issues such as "raw facts." What is a "raw fact" as opposed to a normal one? Also, it doesn't hurt to keep the tertiary distinction. It's not often used meaningfully on WP, but it's a distinction that's regularly mentioned, so we may as well explain it to people. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 17:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It should be possible to edit the changes to address concerns about tertiary sources without reverting. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Slim, is this the change you're discussing in this section?  If not, let's discuss so an edit war doesn't break out and we have to protect the article again.  Dreadstar † 18:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that change.  The version Phil reverted to has no consensus that I can see, and it introduces problematic terms. Can someone tell me what a raw fact is, as opposed to a fact? SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 02:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Does this section relate to WT:NOR#Revisiting a proposal?? If so, can you make that clear Slim? Jsut to be sure we'll all on the same page..or same section of the page..or whatever... Thanks, Wbfergus for pointing that out.  Dreadstar † 18:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Slim, the benefit is that the replacement is a compromise reflecting months of discussion, including multiple policy RfCs and solicitations on the village pump. Regardless of whether or not it is better, is it worse the than standing section? If not, then why oppose the change? If so, then how? Is "raw facts" really that confusing to you? "Raw" is used in the conventional sense, as in "minimally processed". Things like laboratory data and census reports are compilations of "raw facts". Do you have a better way to express the idea? Why is the absence of tertiary sources a problem? You admit it's not really used meaningful in the wiki. I also don't really think it's "regularly mentioned" (or at least, I've never seen any indication of such) outside the context of this policy (or referring to it). Vassyana (talk) 01:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I must say that I'm definitely in favor of adding to the statement that parts of an article drawing on primary sources should "make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims unless explicitly attributed in the Wikipedia article's text to that source", which Vassyana tried to do something like that here. To me, that adds a lot more clarity. Also, IMO the proposed paragraph for secondary sources is an improvement, and I'd support replacing the brief current paragraph on secondary sources with that proposed paragraph. That secondary source paragraph can be found at User:Vassyana/NOR_002. I definitely am not in favor of removing tertiary sources nor in favor of reordering primary and secondary sources and rewriting the whole PSTS section, and think this creates more problems than it solves. ... Kenosis (talk) 02:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would greatly appreciate if you would explain your opposition, including your opposition to conflating secondary and tertiary sources (which you have not adequately explained). Unless you explain your concerns, they cannot be considered and addressed. Vassyana (talk) 18:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Again, as I said before, I don't see any the proposed changes as being any improvement at all over the longstanding version because proposals simply the supposed points of confusion with new sources of confusion, but more of them than before. Once more, the problem is not with the policy but editors not reading and understanding it. FeloniousMonk (talk) 05:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Last time you expressed your opinion without explanation. Could you perhaps be more explicit in explaining what you find to be problematic with the draft? What adds confusion in the proposed replacement? If large swaths of (obviously intelligent and wiki-experienced) editors read the policy and don't understand it, then obviously there's a problem with the wording of the policy. To suggest otherwise is more than a bit ridiculous. Vassyana (talk) 16:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent changes 

message: Looking at the current state of the debate... I thing we are once again falling into three "camps" here... 
*Those who have major issues with the current language of PSTS and think it needs a complete overhaul (if not deletion)
*Those who have minor issues with the current language PSTS and think it needs some re-writing at most, and tweeking at least.
*Those who have no problem with the current language of PSTS, and think it should remain as it is.
From what I can see, most of us fall into the second "camp" (although we might not all agree on any one given proposed wording) ... but any constructive edits and attepts at building a new consensus are being hindered by the extreme stance of those in the other two camps. So I have to ask two questions... 1) Can those with major issues accept that there is consensus for some form of firmly worded PSTS section to remain in this article? and 2) Can those who like the current language accept that there is consensus for some changes to be made?  Blueboar (talk) 01:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is there any room for compromise? 

message: :Examples of primary sources include ... videos, and television programs. What about documentaries? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 15:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would say no. I think it was intended to be an example of artistic works, but obviously it's worded in an overly broad fashion. There are plenty of video and television productions that would be secondary sources. Vassyana (talk) 18:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

text: My suggestion would be redacting the list to a short one with fundamental examples. As a fix for this particular issue, just remove the list of examples for "artistic and fictional works". I believe that most editors can identify works of art and fiction without an extensive list of examples. If they need some examples for guidance in that regard, the footnote clearly lists better examples of artistic works. I would also recommend removing "published experimental results by the person(s) actually involved in the research" as that includes most peer-reviewed scientific literature and a broad swath of academic and mass market science books, which I think most people agree are more like secondary sources under our policy. Vassyana (talk) 11:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

text: The nature (e.g. book, documentary, poem, news program) of a source is actually irrelevant to whether it is a 'primary' or 'secondary' source. All that matters is the relationship between the source and the topic of discussion. Can a documentary be a primary source? Sure... Bowling for Columbine is obviously a primary source for the article about itself. Just as the Encyclopedia Brittanica is a primary source in that article and even the Encyclopedia article. --CBD 13:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: While the primary/secondary nature of a work can change with context, this is a fairly limited set of circumstances. Additionally, the nature of a work is a large part of both the academic and operative Wikipedia definitions of primary and secondary sources. Sure, in relation to itself such works are primary sources, but outside of that limited context they are clearly secondary sources. Vassyana (talk) 13:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: As with written documents, I think there are some documentaries that qualify as primary sources and other documentaries that qualify as secondary sources.  It depends on the individual documentary Blueboar (talk) 13:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

text: Vassyana, essentially you seem to be arguing that 'encyclopedias are more often cited as secondary (or 'tertiary') sources than as primary sources' and 'novels are more often cited as primary sources than as secondary'... of course that is obviously true, but it has more to do with what those sources are 'reliable' for. A novel wherein the characters discuss the toxic effects of Amanita mushrooms could be cited as a secondary source for information on that topic... but novels are not generally considered reliable sources for scientific information. Anything can be either a 'primary' or 'secondary' source, but the kind of information a source is considered reliable for varies considerably by 'type'. However, that is the purview of the reliable sources policy and really has nothing to do with 'original research' or 'primary/secondary' sources. --CBD 17:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about documentaries 

message: Vassyana you claim [in the last section] there are two sides. I am not aware of two sides. I see it more as a multifaceted diamond and I am aware that different people can have different interpretations of the same text, but I think there are a lot more than two interpretations expressed on this talk page and the archives, so please explain to me what you mean by sides. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The opinions and approaches of those commenting here over the past several months can be sorted by a few different groups. Regardless, it's just a turn of phrase meaning that individuals from each major group of opinions (strong PSTS, minimal PSTS, moderate reformers, etc) have supported the proposal. If the draft is a problem for you, it'd be wonderful if you elaborate. If you don't your concerns cannot be accounted for and addressed. Vassyana (talk) 22:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I would rather put the question the other way around what do you think you wording changes and what do you think you have not changed? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 23:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: You don't need me to explain the difference between the standing version and the proposed replacement. If you want to know why I think it is "better", I can answer that. It is a compromise of the various opinions clearly expressed over the past months of discussion. I also believe it better reflects practice as a whole than the current version (in large part because it is based on the vigorous and diverse discourse here). For example, mentioning that certain primary sources have a broad consensus for use. If you're interested in particulars, I'd recommend looking at the couple recent draft proposals, as some issues were addressed and wording changes made in response to reasonable concerns. They will give you a good idea of how I went about incorporating various views. So, any chance you're actually going to elaborate on your own views? Vassyana (talk) 02:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't need you to but I would like you to explain to me what you think are the changes that you have introduced, because you have replaced the section and not made an incremental change it is hard to deduce what you think you have changed against what I think you have changed. It would help me to asses if the changes that I think you have made are intentional or just a difference in the understanding that you and I have over the two texts. For example to pick up on what you have written immediately above "mentioning that certain primary sources have a broad consensus for use", where in the current version does it prohibit the use of primary sources and why does such a statement need to be included? The reason why I am conservative over this issue is it is much easier to weigh incremental changes and my experience in the past is that large changes to policy have unforeseen consequences for how things are interpreted. One example in 002 you have the clause "unless such claims are verifiable from another source" and that can have a totally different meaning to "unless such claims are verifiable from another source". The first uses the dictionary definition of verifiable the second a Wikipedia meaning that includes the type of source that can be used for verification. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, thanks for pointing out that I missed the WP:V. That was the result of a sloppy cut/paste from the live article. The noting of broad consensus for certain primary sources was a counterweight to noting that articles should use depend on reliable secondary sources. It was included due to the concerns raised by several editors. Thank you for this excellent reply. It helps me understand why the change was problematic for you and your reasoning makes perfect sense. Do you think approaching the matter in a more incremental fashion (suggest particular replacements, removals adjustments) would be helpful? (Regardless, I'll work on piece by piece explanations of the changes for your benefit and that of others.) Vassyana (talk) 11:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two sides 

message: FYI, Dreadstar has filed a Request for Comment here about my alleged "conduct" regarding PSTS issues on this page, and I have submitted a Request for Arbitration here. I hope everyone will take the time to comment one way or another regarding both requests, which are currently proceeding simultaneously. COGDEN 09:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a quick notice that I plan on commenting on both 'issues', but it's a very convoluted and multi-faceted problem, so before I do, I want to try and get all of my ducks in a row. Also, I find fault with 'both' sides and I also agree with 'both' sides on various points, so I also want to try to ensure that my comments are fair, evenly balanced, and that I research my statements as best I can within reasonable time limits (I do have other things to do). wbfergus  Talk 11:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  FYI, there is a request for arbitration and a request for comment regarding PSTS 

message: Explanation for the text of User:Vassyana/NOR 002 was requested in a reasonable and well-thought fashion. User:Vassyana/NOR 002#Explanation is the response to this request. Please ask any further questions you may have, so I can answer them to the best of my ability. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 13:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Draft explanation