Talk:Sign of the cross

message: ===Two fingers===
Which two fingers were used in Russia?
Index and thumb?
Or index and middle while thumb is folded over the palm?
Index and middle - look at Old Believers' ways today.
Rdmauriello 02:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: The gesture

message: Which two fingers were used in Russia?
Index and thumb?
Or index and middle while thumb is folded over the palm?
Index and middle - look at Old Believers' ways today.
Rdmauriello 02:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Two fingers

message: The two fingers are not raised in blessing at all: this is from the Roman symbol for "I speak," (dixit). People who want to interpret the visual arts need to take an art history course or three first.198.176.188.201 (talk) 17:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: An illustration would be OK (maybe I'll try to make one with clergy/monks), but the list is irrelevant to both the article and the films. adriatikus | 17:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Dixit position, not the sign of the cross

message: Could we have an illustration of the gesture proceedure?
* & a list of films in which the gesture is made? Dogru144 17:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: An illustration would be OK (maybe I'll try to make one with clergy/monks), but the list is irrelevant to both the article and the films. adriatikus | 17:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Illustration?

message: It is said:
"As one moves through the Sign, one recites, at the forehead, "Lord "; at the stomach, "Jesus Christ", on the right shoulder, "Son of God"; and on the left shoulder, "have mercy on us" followed by a bow(to the ground during great lent). Joining two fingers together-the index and the middle finger-and extending them, with the middle finger slightly bent, represents the two natures of Christ: His Divinity and His Humanity."
Even though the definition is correct for eastern tradition, I know that people in the Latin Rite do it rather differently. First, it's not "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, and Have Mercy on Us", but "In the name of the father, and the son, and the holy spirit, Amen". No bow after crossing, and use all five fingers instead of joining the two fingers. Olentz 17:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Gesture for Latin Rite?

message: === Disputed ===
I can't find anywhere online (granted, it's at a late hour and I'm not looking quite as hard as I might at an earlier time) that substantiates the article's claim as to why Western and Eastern Christians make the Sign in different directions (left-right vs right-left). So I decided to be cautious and put up a dubious tag. -Penta 07:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: STK - with all due respect, that's not how it's traditionally done. Traditionally, it's from shoulder to shoulder. InfernoXV (talk) 10:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

text: It's probably on analogy with the Anglican church which does it.  Or maybe there are Lutherans who do it? -- the GREAT Gavini 06:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sectarian variations of the cross '''gesture'''

message: I can't find anywhere online (granted, it's at a late hour and I'm not looking quite as hard as I might at an earlier time) that substantiates the article's claim as to why Western and Eastern Christians make the Sign in different directions (left-right vs right-left). So I decided to be cautious and put up a dubious tag. -Penta 07:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disputed 

message: I can not find why the Orthodox go right to left. What is the true reason?
The reason is that the Son sits to right side of the Father. The Son died, rose and sits to the right of the Father, hence the hand goes from the head to the stomach (or chest) which represents the Hades, and then to the right of the head, or right of the Father.
I grew up (Melkite Greek Catholic) learning that it also mirrors the "Be on my mind, in my heart, bless my good works, and forgive me my sins" ditty that you teach kids. Personally, I'd think it has to do with aversions to things of the left. Thus, one goes to the right shoulder and then the heart, not the left shoulder.
Rdmauriello 02:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: STK - with all due respect, that's not how it's traditionally done. Traditionally, it's from shoulder to shoulder. InfernoXV (talk) 10:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  right to left 

message: Lutherans do this? Really? I'm Lutheran (ELCA) and I've never once seen it done in church. PeteJayhawk 20:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's probably on analogy with the Anglican church which does it.  Or maybe there are Lutherans who do it? -- the GREAT Gavini 06:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lutherans and the sign of the cross 

message: The article says:
"the most accepted is that in the West, when the priest made the Sign over the people to bless them, the people mirrored the direction of his hand, rather than copying the motions, thus, they moved their hand left to right, the direction that the priest's hand moved from the point of view of the congregation. In the East, the people simply continued to make the same sign."
I have heard the complete opposite explanation, according to which Eastern Faithful mirror the motions of the priest, while Western Faithful copy the priest's motions. This also makes sense, as the above version is contradicted by actual practice in the Western rite (with which I am familiar): the sign of the cross is not mirrored, rather both priest and faithful move from the left to the right. 
Are there any objections to changing this?
Str1977 (smile back) 19:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue is still not addressed by a reference. Therefore I place the fact tag. Str1977 (talk) 09:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Difference on difference

message: This:
:During the Bosnian war, Serbo-Bosnian troops raised two fingers in a sign of victory, Bosnian Croats raised three fingers and Muslims raised one (after the strict monotheism of Islam).
...is wrong. It was Serbs who raised three fingers, while Croats raised two. Raising three fingers is almost certainly related to the Sign of the cross. Still, I'm unfamiliar with the Bosniak gesture of raising one finger - can somebody check it up? GregorB 21:44, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
:Some Muslims stretch one finger as a rite just before death to affirm their strict monotheism. However, I heard this from the Maghreb, not from Bosnia. Str1977 (talk) 09:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Muslims hold up their index finger to show that there is one God, Allah. Also, in Arabic, the word Allah starts off with the letter alif, which is a vertical line. So the shape of the index finger is an allusion to Allah, alif, and the number one. The Serb "three finger salute" is now regarded as a repugnant gesture, equivalent to the Nazi salute, because of its association with the genocide and atrocities committed by the Serbs during their wars of aggression against Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.149.192.133 (talk) 06:20, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title: Bosnian war

message: "The actual origin of the expression "double-cross" which dates in English from only 1834, has to do with "fixing" a horse-race in a pre-arranged swindle that is only very loosely connected with the sign of the cross."
Besides only being tangentially related to the article, this contradicts the Double cross page (which, according to the Jonathan Wild article, is wrong as well). Can we just remove this sentence entirely? 12.217.177.151 03:00, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Double-cross

message: Reasons:
# I don't think it is the only offence, why including only this example ?
# It has no relevance to the article what one individual did once. It is not an example of a trend of some sort.
# Neither the state/church relation isn't relevant to the article, since the section was about one single incident. (Are there any states banning the sign of the cross? This would be relevant).
This is my edit: 
adriatikus | 13:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleted section Offence 

message: I've added unreferenced template per User talk:Oldfaith123. Comments and contribs to the section are welcome. Thank you. adriatikus | 00:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Gesture - unreferenced 

message: Over a series of edits, this article has become seemingly biased. This article should be about the use of the sign of the Cross in all churches, and especially major churches, but it has become overly skewed towards the views of Russian traditionalists: including referring to Patriarch Nikon as 'Nikon the apostate'. Such bias is simply unacceptable in Wikipedia articles. Of course, the views of different groups can be expressed, but not to the extinction of other major views. I initially put a POV notice at the top of the article, but now it seems all so biased that I shall revert it whole scale. I suggest that those few authors who support the reverted text, rework it acceptably into the article (without using overtly biased language) and refrain from deleting the text in other parts of the article. These edits have been reverted before, so I now believe it's time to discuss them here. I think it is fair to consider further biased editing and failure to discuss edits as vandalism. — Gareth Hughes 14:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have just reverted that series of edits, but it seems that a clear Old-Believer bias has been creeping into the article for a while. I have reintroduced to the article a lot of material that has just been removed. I believe we need to sift through some of this stuff to streamline it, but I think it's better present than drifting around in the history somewhere. To those editors who are Old Believers: of course, the views of Old Believers is welcome if presented in an encyclopaedic style, but rewriting the entire article to suit a minority view is not acceptable. Editors who continue to add biased material to this article will be warned and then, if they persist, be blocked. — Gareth Hughes 15:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oldfaith123 (talk · contribs) seems to have taken offence to this, reverted the article a couple of times and dumped the text of a tract here, on my talk page and the user's own talk page. Clearly, this user does not want to edit this article in collaboration with others, and I have blocked their account for 24 hours. The talk page is open for further discussion, but anything else that looks like vandalism will be reverted and may lead to lengthier blocks. — Gareth Hughes 00:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rewrite seems overly biased 

message: The article is biased towards the traditions of the Latin West. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oldfaith123 (talk • contribs) 05:29, 21 July 2007  (UTC)
:Failing to biased towards the traditions of Russian Old Believers is not the same thing as being biased towards the traditions of the Latin West. —Angr 08:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Article is biased

message: "Romish practices" ??
(see under Methodism)
:Good catch. I changed it to "practices perceived to be typically Roman Catholic". —Angr 19:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Offensive language 

message: I am removing the following paragraphs that have been tagged as lacking sources since March:
*In the western Church, the direction gradually changed during the first millennium from right-to-left to left-to-right. The reasons for this are unclear and heavily disputed, however, the most accepted is that in the West, when the priest made the Sign over the people to bless them, the people mirrored the direction of his hand, rather than copying the motions, thus, they moved their hand left-to-right, the direction that the priest's hand moved from the point of view of the congregation. In the Byzantine-Rite East, the people simply continued to make the same sign. The Ethiopians, though further removed from the West, make the sign of the cross left-to-right.
*Whatever the reason, by the 13th century, after the Great Schism between East and West had already occurred, Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) who met with Saint Francis of Assisi, directed that the Sign of the Cross be made with three fingers pressed together, two fingers held tightly in the palm and the hand moves from the forehead to the belly and from the right side  to the left shoulder. He also acknowledged that some (in the far West) did the sign with two fingers and from left to right – this was not correct.
If anyone can find and cite sources for these, feel free to re-add them. —Angr 15:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing unsourced statements 

message: I have marked as  the claim that the Sign of the Cross is more frequent in Eastern Christianity than Western Christianity, because the examples given in the rest of the paragraph (upon entering or leaving a church building, at the start and end of personal prayer, or passing the main altar (which represents Christ). Additionally, Eastern Christians  sign themselves whenever all three persons of the Trinity are addressed as well when approaching an icon) are all times when Western Christians (especially Roman Catholics, but also High-Church Anglicans) would also cross themselves. Except possibly when approaching an icon, since Western Christianity doesn't make as much use of those. Other times when Western Christians cross themselves are before and after receiving Communion, and at the beginning of the Benedictus. —Angr 15:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not at all dubious if you've been to an Eastern Church. InfernoXV 18:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not denying that Eastern Christians cross themselves at those points, just pointing out that Western Christians do too. —Angr 18:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've added where else Easterns cross themselves - and it's a whole lot more than Westerns. InfernoXV 20:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I attend both Greek Catholic and Roman Catholic services regularly, and I can assure you that the Sign of the Cross is made many more times during the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (or BtG) than during RCC services. Majoreditor 13:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  More frequent in Eastern traditions? 

message: It is nice to see the details given about the position of the fingers in many Eastern Churches, but I think the position of the fingers for the Western/Roman Catholic Church needs to be more detailed.
Maybe it should include various practices of positions of the fingers, such as open hand, or index and middle fingers extended with middle finger slightly bent, and pinky and ring fingers folded in close to the palm with the thumb joining them. I know this is the prescribed position when a priest is to give a blessing.
--Minimidgy (talk) 19:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Position of the fingers while crossing oneself in the Latin Church 

message: what about "spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch"?  that should definately be in the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.28.54 (talk) 07:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: No, it shouldn't. This is an encyclopedia, not a repository of old jokes. And it's not even a good mnemonic anymore since most people nowadays keep their wallet in their back pocket and their watch on their wrist. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 15:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  way to remember 

message: The article tells us that Western Christians and the "Oriental Orthodox" (as opposed to Eastern Orthodox) sign left-to-right, while the Eastern Orthodox sign right-to-left. What about Eastern Catholics? —Angr 19:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Those of the Byzantine tradition do it the Byzantine way, those of the Oriental tradition do it the Oriental way. InfernoXV (talk) 20:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Are those of the Oriental tradition all 8 of the churches listed at Eastern Catholics#List of Eastern Catholic Churches that are not listed under "Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition"? —Angr 20:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Precisely so. InfernoXV (talk) 20:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eastern Catholics 

message: To all anon/IPs out there: this is an encyclopedia, not a playground or a place where you can be cool because you've seen some comedy film. Please grow up! The sign of your attempted maturity would be NOT adding the above mnemonic technique, because IT IS NOT ENCYCLOPEDIC and it transforms WP into garbage. Your school curricula isn't based on Hollywood, is it? – Thank you. adriatikus | talk 01:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Movie? What movie are you talking about? I learned of the rhyme from other people, and I’m not even Christian. Clearly the rhyme exists and all kinds of people know of it; and no doubt lots of children (and probably even adults) have used it to remember the order. How (specifically) is that not encyclopedic? The origins of this are quite simple to explain, it was a way for Non-Catholic boys and men to remember HOW to cross themselves correctly, if caught out in Catholic areas during troubled times. The direction of the sign of the cross are from the head "spectacles" downwards towards the "testicles" upwards and across to the right side of the chest where "pocket watches" were held in the right hand waist coat pocket, the towards the left hand side where a man would keep his "wallet" in the inside of his jacket. Anyone caught out by signing incorrectly might get a beating or worse, hence remembering this simple rhyme "Spectacles, Testicles, Pocket Watch and Wallet" could save your life. Obviously this is best suited for someone who is "right handed" if one is "left handed" well..........99.255.3.117 (talk) 00:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

text: If only it were only anons/IPs who keep adding this unencyclopedic trivia. But registered users often do, too. —Angr 06:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "spectacles, testicles, wallet and watch" 

message: It seems that you should also present the following hand signs of Christianity, that are already found within Wikipedia!  This sign consists of the ring finger of the right hand touching the right hand thumb, with the other three fingers raised!  Just how do you miss something as obvious as this?  Your site monitors seem to not be doing their job!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sankt_Petersburg_Auferstehungskirche_innen_2005_d.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Byzantinischer_Mosaizist_um_1020_001.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Byzantinischer_Mosaizist_um_1118_001.jpg
Regards,
69.92.23.64 (talk) 20:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about the Sign of the Cross, not about Christian hand gestures in general. And Wikipedia doesn't have "site monitors", just volunteer editors. +Angr 06:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christian hand guestures not mentioned in this article although available within Wikipedia 

message: An image used in this article, , has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 
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thread_title: File:BASIL.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: check usage in in modern sources In ictu oculi (talk) 12:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: [[WP:CAPS]]

message: Does anyone know the sequence of the Sign by the Spaniard in Pirates of the Carribean: On Stranger Tides after the Fountain of Youth was not-so-completely destroyed?
Thanks!
98.148.218.165 (talk) 03:09, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Film

message: Just came through out of curiosity, and while the Protestant views section is a good idea, it would be nice if the article touched on a few denominations that rejected it. At present it just says that it was rejected as Roman Catholic, but I'm sure there is more to it than just that. --Pstanton (talk) 08:01, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Protestant views

message: *The right hand goes from the forehead, to the chest, to the left shoulder, and to the right shoulder. Is there a difference in the different churches? Left or right, and if it is - who? Hafspajen (talk) 00:33, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Sign of the cross. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Sign of the cross. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110720031904/http://www.stjamescolumbus.org/signofthecross.htm to http://www.stjamescolumbus.org/signofthecross.htm
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The following passage is clearly wrong and/or confusing:
"The open right hand is used in Western Christianity. The five open fingers are often said to represent the Five Wounds of Christ. This symbolism was adopted after the more ancient gesture of two or three fingers was simplified. Though this is the most common method of crossing by Western Christians, other forms are sometimes used."
Western Christians, as indicated elsewhere in this article, generally use two fingers when making the sign of the cross, not an open hand. Also the citation supposedly supporting this statement does not appear to be from a very authoritative source, nor does it even clearly illustrate what it is meant to. (2604:2000:C5CA:E00:11D1:418C:2FD:9205 (talk) 19:17, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correction!