Talk:Billava

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thread_title: File:Narayana Guru.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: There has been quite a bit of edit warring over content disagreements and over the addition of unsourced material over the past few days, so I have protected the article from editing for a period of 1 week to give the relevant editors some time to discuss their desired changes here and seek to achieve a consensus. In the meantime, uncontroversial changes can be requested using the  template -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:26, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks like semi-protection should be ok now, so I've backed it off to that - if any IPs want to make any changes, please make a request using  -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Edit warring/unsourced material

message: I've got a couple of queries about this series of tweaks. First, though, I am glad that someone appears to understand the dashed dashes situation because I can never get my head round it!
The tweak includes adding the Protestant denomination when that has already been stated (the Basel Mission were the first Protestant mission in the area, but not necessarily the first Christian mission). That is just an issue of repetition but I am more concerned about changing "The Billava community suffered ritual discrimination under the Brahmanic system – of which the caste system in Kerala was perhaps the most extreme example – until the twentieth century." so that it is now "The Billava community suffered ritual discrimination under the Brahmanic system—of which the caste system in Kerala was perhaps the most extreme example until the twentieth century."
It might be a little subtle, but the new version does not mean the same thing as the original version did. The original says that the Billavas suffered oppression until the 20th C and notes as an aside that the worst place for caste oppression was Kerala, where of course there were some Billavas. The new version says that the caste system of Kerala was the most extreme example of the Brahmanic system until the 20th C, which is true enough but leaves things dangling regarding the Billavas themselves. Does this make sense? - Sitush (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's fine to add that they were the first Protestant mission in the area. If you could find a reliable source stating it, you could add "Until the 20th century, the Billava community suffered ritual discrimination under the Brahmanic system—of which the caste system in Kerala was perhaps the most extreme example—until the twentieth century." Also, terms found in Merriam-Websters need not be italicized. Joyson Prabhu Holla at me!  18:33, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was a wise move, given that the article was expanded to you. Someone could have argued that the image was more appropriate in the Traditional Occupations section. It sucks that there is no lead image, but i will try to find a suitable modern equivalent and upload it on Commons. Joyson Prabhu Holla at me!  15:30, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tweaking 

message: Billawa community is totally disagree with the maner of showing in sudras. Martial arts academies of the Billavas are known as garadi. Reading, writing and instruction in archery and the martial arts were the main activities of garadi – similar to Kalarippayattu, which is practised by the Īḻavar community in Kerala . Since billava means bravery and arrow which links with soldier and belongs to ksathriya community.  Over a period of different kings rules on tulunadu they were not identified properly.
115.113.175.180 (talk) 08:58, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The information is verified by a reliable source in the article. Please provide other reliable sources if you wish to add this other information. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 27 December 2012 

message: Dear sir,
Pls read the page 288 to 295 link   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanillin1 (talk • contribs) 10:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 27 December 2012 

message: This article is a complete disaster in terms of sourcing. I've tagged a lot of stuff & there have been some maintenance tags at the top of the thing for many months now. You are requested to pls unprotect and allow to change the page.
I propose to concentrate initially on the Origins section, where there is a weird mix of " billava inferior to bunts.
pls read page no. 25 of link , read 
"Next to Brahaman and jain are the bunt, the billava and mogavira caste in that order.
Pls read page no.26 " Bunts apart from jain and section of billava followed the system of aliasanthana property inheritance."
Further, you are requested to delete billava men photo and delete following para in the article.
"The Billava community is one of a few in India that practice posthumous marriage. Others that do so include the Badagas, Komatis and the Todas.[12]".
The Billavas were among the many communities to be excluded from the Hindu temples of Brahmins[14] and they traditionally worship spirits in a practice known as Bhuta Kola. S. D. L. Alagodi wrote in 2006 of the South Canara population that "Among the Hindus, a little over ten per cent are brahmins, and all the others, though nominally Hindus, are really propitiators or worshippers of tutelary deities and bhutas or demons."
"Bhuta Kola is a cult practised by a large section of Tulu Nadu society, ranging from landlords to untouchables, and the various hierarchical strands all have their place within it. While those at the top of this hierarchical range provide patronage, others such as the Billava provide the practical services of officiating and tending the shrines, while those at the bottom of the hierarchy enact the rituals, which include aspects akin to the regional theatrical art forms known as Kathakali and Yakshagana.[23] For example, the pooja rituals include ancestral spirits-dancing, performed by the lower class Paravar[nb 3] or Naike,[19] and the Bunts who relied upon the Poojary to officiate.[18]
There was a significance in the Bunt landholdings and the practice of Bhuta worship. As the major owners of land, the Bunts held geographic hubs around which their tenant farmers and other agricultural workers were dispersed. The Billavas, being among the dispersed people, were bonded to their landlords by the necessities of livelihood and were spread so that they were unable to unite in order to assert authority. Furthermore, the Bhuta belief system also provided remedies for social and legal issues: it provided a framework for day-to-day living.[26]
Thurston noted that Baidya was a common name among the community, as was Poojary. He was told that this was a corruption of Vaidya, meaning a physician.[16]"
"A Billava toddy tapper, ca. 1909
Heidrun Brückner describes the Billavas of the nineteenth century as "frequently small tenant farmers and agricultural labourers working for Bunt landowners."[26] Writing in 1930, Iyer described the community as being involved mostly in toddy tapping, although they also had involvements in agriculture and in some areas were so in the form of peasant tenant landholders known as raiyats.[14] This was echoed in a report of the Indian Council of Agricultural Research of 1961, which said that "The Billavas are concentrated mostly in South Kanara district. Though toddy tappers by profession, they rely mostly on cultivation. They are generally small landowners or lessees ...".[27]
According to Ghosh, "By tradition, [the Billavas] are also associated with the martial arts and the single most famous pair of Tuluva heroes, the brothers Koti-Chennaya, are archetypal heroes of the caste who symbolize the often hostile competition between the Billavas and the Bunts."[28] Neither Thurston nor Iyer make any reference to this claim."
Social changes
The Billava community suffered ritual discrimination under the Brahmanic system—of which the caste system in Kerala was perhaps the most extreme example until the twentieth century. They were, however, allowed to live in the same villages as Brahmins.[14]
Some Billavas had seen the possibility of using religion as a vehicle for the social advancement of their community, as the Paravars had previously attempted in their conversion to Christianity.[30] The British had wrested the region from the control of Tipu Sultan in 1799, as a consequence of the Fourth Anglo-Mysore War, and in 1834 the Christian Basel Mission arrived in Mangalore. These evangelists were among the first to take advantage of a relaxation of rules that had prevented non-British missionaries from working in India, and theirs was the first Protestant mission of any nationality in the area.[31] They initially condemned the caste system because it was an inherent part of the Hindu religion and therefore must be wrong, but they came to see the divisions caused by it as being evil in their own right and took to undermining it as a matter of social justice.[32] They considered the stratification of the caste system as being contrary to Christian values, which proclaimed that all were equal in the eyes of God.[33] These missionaries had some success in converting native people, of which those converted from among the Billavas formed the "first and largest group".[32] Brückner describes the Billavas as being "the strongest group among the converts" and that, along with the Bunts, they were "the mainstays of the popular local religion, and the mission was probably induced by this target group to occupy itself with its practices and oral literature."[26]
Alagodi notes that the
... motives for conversion were not always purely religious. Support against oppression by landlords and money lenders, hope for better social standards, education for their children, chances of employment in the mission's firms, the prospect of food provision, clothing, shelter and a decent state of life—such motives might have contributed to their decision for baptism. The chief motive, however, seems to have been a revolt against the social order dominated by demons or bhutas. The conversion offered them forgiveness of sin and liberation from the social conditions that would hold them back if they remained in the Hindu fold. ... Many people thought that the God of the missionaries was greater and more powerful than the demons.[34]
However, the conversion of Billavas to Christianity did not always run smoothly. The Basel missionaries were more concerned with the quality of those converted than with the quantity. In 1869 they rejected a proposition that 5000 Billavas would convert if the missionaries would grant certain favours, including recognition of the converts as a separate community within the church and also a dispensation to continue certain of their traditional practices. The missionaries took the view that the proposition was contrary to their belief in equality and that it represented both an incomplete rejection of the caste system and of Hindu practices. Alagodi has speculated that if the proposition had been accepted then "Protestant Christians would have been perhaps one of the largest religious communities in and around Mangalore today."[33] A further barrier to conversion proved to be the Billava's toddy tapping occupation: the Basel Mission held no truck with alcohol, and those who did convert found themselves economically disadvantaged, often lacking both a job and a home.[35] This could apply even if they were not toddy tappers: as tenant farmers or otherwise involved in agriculture, they would lose their homes and the potential beneficence of their landlords if they converted.[26] The Mission attempted to alleviate this situation by provision of work, principally in factories that produced tiles and woven goods.[35][nb 5]
Nireshvalya Arasappa—described by Kenneth Jones as "one of the few educated Billavas"—was one such person who looked to conversion from Hinduism as a means to advancement during the nineteenth century. Having initially examined the opportunities provided by Christian conversion, Arasappa became involved with the Brahmo Samaj movement in the 1870s and he arranged for Brahmo missionaries to meet with his community. The attempt met with little success: the Billavas were suspicious of the Brahmo representatives, who wore western clothing and spoke in English[30] whereas the Basel Missionaries had studied the local languages and produced a copy of the New Testament in both Tulu and Kannada.[2]
Kudroli Gokarnanatheshwara Temple  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanillin1 (talk • contribs) 11:36, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: For the love of...read what I wrote elsewhere. Once you decide to start learning policies, then we can talk. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billava and Social Status 

message: Please add below para in langauage as per reference of page 159 of 
Tulunad was administratively cohesive when it formed part of the Madras Presidency, but the recognisation of Indian states in 1956-57 disrupted this with the accession of Kasargod Taluk in the south west of Kerala. The remainder of the rea joined Karnataka.
Dialect Variation
A preliminary survey of this network is reported in D.N.S. Bhat (1970) and detailed research based on data for the tulu lexicon project appears in Padmanabha (1990). There are in each area several caste groups which distinguish primarily among three major division: Brahmin (Sivalli and Shiva), common ( including such caste as Bunts,Billava,gowda,Mogavira) and the rest (Harijans and tribalsSanillin1 (talk) 07:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: No, because that's an exact copy of the source. We can never copy the exact words. So let's see what we can summarize...well, as far as I can tell the only thing it says about the Billava is that they were one of what Padmanabha called the "common" castes in Tulunad. The other info is about the region, and thus not relevant to this article (though you may want to consider adding it to Tulu Nadu if it isn't already there). I suppose it just be added to the lead, such as changing the second sentence to read "They are found traditionally in Karnataka (such as Tulu Nadu)<add ref here> and some parts of Kerala..." There's not really another section about their location in general, so I don't see any good place to put it, and it's not important enough to get it's own section. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billava Language 

message: Pls refer page of 151 of bants and 243 to 247 of billava of link  and link .
You have taken reference of Mysore tribes and castes of LKA Iyer for billava (book does not have full page, some of pages are omitted), whereas LKA Iyer reference were not mentioned with bants article.
You are once again requested do not publish any fabricated matter as following para . Further bcoz of such reference given by wikipedia author, students are not allowed to refer wikipedia article.
Kindly read above attached link, which summarize bants and billava communities do have faith in bhuta kola and both were claiming the origin from warrior clan and  independent with thier activities in tulunadu. Below para states billavas are inferior and performing bhuta kola to bants, which is not correct.This shows some group manupulate the origin of history.
Disputed para:
Bhuta Kola is a cult practised by a large section of Tulu Nadu society, ranging from landlords to untouchables, and the various hierarchical strands all have their place within it. While those at the top of this hierarchical range provide patronage, others such as the Billava provide the practical services of officiating and tending the shrines, while those at the bottom of the hierarchy enact the rituals, which include aspects akin to the regional theatrical art forms known as Kathakali and Yakshagana.[23] For example, the pooja rituals include ancestral spirits - dancing, performed by the Paravar[nb 3] or Naike,[19] and the Bunts who relied upon the Poojaris to officiate.[18]
There was a significance in the Bunt landholdings and the practice of Bhuta worship. As the major owners of land, the Bunts held geographic hubs around which their tenant farmers and other agricultural workers were dispersed. The Billavas, being among the dispersed people, were bonded to their landlords by the necessities of livelihood and were spread so that they were unable to unite in order to assert authority. Furthermore, the Bhuta belief system also provided remedies for social and legal issues: it provided a framework for day-to-day living.Sanillin1 (talk) 06:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, I don't understand what you two are complaining about. The claim that they were lower than the Bunts is directly sourced to what is definitely a reliable source. And the Links you gave are long, unclear, and I don't specifically see where they refute the claim. Could you provide a specific quotation from the Castes and tribes of southern India claiming Billava did not consider themselves inferior to Bunts? If there is a clear statement to that effect, then we'll include both opinions, as required by WP:NPOV. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

text: Sure, I can tell you. I recommend that you go to the WP:ANI thread that I opened about your conduct (WP:ANI#Sanillin1. ANI is the page used to bring matters to the attention of administrators. I've already brought your behavior to that board, but you can certainly use the same space to bring up your concerns about my behavior. One small note, however: I wasn't actually the person who was reverting you here today. I would have, if I had seen it first, but it was another editor. This is because you cannot simply remove well-sourced information just because you don't like it. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:25, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry, my mistake, the ANI's already been closed and you're topic banned from this page. Well, if you see the comment here, probably the next best step is for you to ask at User Talk:JamesBWatson, who is the admin who placed the topic ban. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billava with Origin reference 

message: there are in many places quotes are included.whether these quotes are correct or not is not sure.there are many places where attempts to defame the caste can be seen.its because billava caste is the largest caste and many castes such as bhrahmins does not like them as billavars never considered or accepted that bhrahmins have any greatness. 
there are many places where billavars attachment with martial arts are mentioned and each place the author have taken additional precuation to say that these mention by thurson and others were not supported with  any reference or evidance. but there are many evidance.the sangam literature gives a clear picture of the social status and importance of villar ,who were generally soldiers and brave warriors ,strength of a king is assertained by the number of villar warriors who supports him.pathittu path,pathupattu,chilappathikaram, manimekhala etc are sangam literature which are in tamil.
there are numerous folk songs about the billava warriors heroism.their deeds are unparrelled and surpassed by any others in the history.there are thousands of folk songs which are recently beening collected and published but not yet put to acadamic studies.many are not even published.garadi or kalari are martial arts schools run by the billavars.many martial arts experts from kerala used to visit these garadis for learning tulu style of martial arts,or known as tulunadan kalari in kerala.kalaris in kerala are cheifly run by ezhavar or thiyyar caste which are same caste such as billavar,these castes too are considered orgined from villar ,the warrior community of sangam age.
115.254.54.146 (talk) 05:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Neither Sangam literature nor folk songs constitute a reliable source. Information must come from secondary sources, such as historians, anthropologists, and sociologists (or for current information, high quality journalists). Everything you write here is just your personal opinion/knowledge, and, as such, cannot be added to the article. However, if you would like to provide reliable sources, then we can discuss making changes. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

text: You haven't provided a single reliable source. Please, just in case I missed it, provide exactly one reliable source below. You may want to read our guideline on reliable sources first. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit request on 1 July 2013 

message: Pls refer to the below comment:
When CV RamanPillai wrote the first historical novel he chose to depict Branthan Chanan alias Anantha Padmanabhan was a disguised Nair. Raman Pillai did not try to explain why a Nair aristorcrat should disguise himself as a Nadar and how he managed to do it. The ungratefulness of the Travancore rulers in the 18th century with the Parangi/British support turned Nadars into slaves. Dharma Raja who followed Marthandavarma had his kingdom supported by British as well as the exodus of Nairs running away from Tippu. The worst period of Nadars and Villavars who once belonged to the old Tamil Kingdoms started with that. The British Parangis supported the Matriarchal kingdoms unconditionally. Nadars did not have any right during the British rule which lasted till 1947. 
British missionaries converted Nadars to Christianity during this period but never supported the Nadar claims of Kshatriyahood.
The Malik Kafurs invasion in 1310 removed all the Tamil Villavar kingdoms from power. A Matriarchal tribe from tulunadu called Bunt who were once brought to Karnataka as slaves from Ahichatram (Uttranchal)/Nepal became dominant in Kerala in the 14th century. Many subcastes of the Tulu Bunt community which practised Matriarchy such as Nayara Menava Kuruba and Samantha became lords of Kerala with the help of Delhis invaders. Matriarchy and Polyandry practised by the latterday rulers after 14th century because of their Himalayan origin. Bunt or Buntaru in Kannada meant bonded slave warriors from Ahichatram. Samantha a subgroup of the Tulunadus Bunt community became the rulers of Kerala. Tulu writing system was promoted by these Samantha rulers (Modern Malayalam is written with Tulu writing system). Samanthas practised Matriarchy and Polyandry which were never practised by the Tamil Villavar rulers of Kerala prior to 1310.
Adding insult to injury the British scholors promoted the Tulu Nepales dynasty of Samanthan Nairs as descendents of the Tamil Kulasekhara dynasty which ruled Kerala for many thousand years.
The Samantha kingdoms actually descend from a Tulu invader called Kulasekhara who was the brother of the Tulu king Kaviraja Singha Arasan (Kavi Alupendra 1100-1170) of the Alupas dynasty of Tululnadu. Keralolapathy a book written in the 17th century mentions the invasion of Kerala by the Tulu prince Kulasekhara who invaded Kerala with 350000 strong Nair army thereby ending the Tamil Villavar Chera Dynasty at 1102 AD. This Tulu Kulasekhara established a Matriarchal kingdom at Kannur and called himself Cheraman Vadakkan Perumal. His descendent was the Kolathiri ruler of Kannur called Udayavarman Kolathiri. The Tulu Nepalese Bunt/Nair dynasties were dormant under the Tamil Pandyan dynasty which ruled over Kerala till 1310 AD. Till the 17th century the Tamil Villavar Chera-Ai ruler ruled from Southern Kerala and Southern Tamil Nadu. Nadars descend from the Villavar Nadalvar dynasties of Kerala and Tamil nadu.
The Tulu Nepalese dynasty with origins at Ahichatra and from the Naga slaves brought form Ahichatra by Kadamba King Mayuravarma in 345 AD are not related to ethnic Tamil Chera or Pandyan dynasties.
http://pazhayathu.blogspot.in/2010/04/robert-l.html
When Portuguese came to Kerala Keralas language was Tamil. However the Tamil Chera (Villavar) Vellalar and Ayar aristocracy had been defeated and replaced by the the invasion of Malik Kafur in 1310 AD. After 1310 Kerala was occupied and ruled by Tulu tribes (Nayara Menava Samantha) etc. The new rulers of Kerala after 1310 might descend from the Naga tribes brought by Karnatakas kadamba kings from Nepal as slave warriors hence called Bunts. Bands of Nagas from Ahichatram had migrated to Tulunadu under Brahmin(Nambudiri Shivally Brahmins). Since the Buntas were not allowed to marry or have families a Matriarchal society had evolved. The Tulunadus Bunt/Nair dynasties of Kerala practiced Matriarchy and Polyandry. Tamil Chera Pandya or Chola dynasties had never practised Matriarchy. Kerala with a Tamil population,(Villavar/Panickar Vellalar/Pillai Parathavar and Ayar) ruled by ethnically and culturally different Bunts (Samantha Nayara Menava Kuruba etc) and Nambudiris with Tulumadu roots. Portuguese chose to support the primitive weak Matriarchal Tulu Samantha rulers with their Christian Mestizo army. The Mestizo support to the Tulu Samantha rulers with Nepalese/Ahichatra origins led to the destruction of Dravidian Tamil culture of Kerala.
http://keralacastehistory.blogspot.in/2012/08/history-of-nairs-ezhavas-billava-syrian.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Attysandy (talk • contribs) 07:23, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Blogspot-hosted stuff is not usually consider reliable on Wikipedia. Please see WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

text: I have no idea whether your linked image relates to Billava or not but we can't include copyrighted images in articles. What makes you think that the existing image is not of a Billava? - Sitush (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arbitrary heading 

message: Devil worship is an incorrect term that gets used frequently . It should be Spirit worship . This confusion primarily comes up due to word "Butha" being used for ghosts and spirits. 
source - http://www.shastriyakannada.org/DataBase/KannwordHTMLS/CLASSICAL%20KANNADA%20RELIGION%20HTML/BHUTHARADHANE%20HTML.htm
https://www.deccanherald.com/content/469784/invoking-guardian-spirits-coastal-karnataka.html
 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikisarvajna (talk • contribs) 14:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Devil worship is incorrect term  

message: I am getting a feeling after going through the history details, the protecting editor is being unfair and is keeping only that content that is showing the community in poor light. Sudarshan Karnad (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. -- Dane talk  01:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2017 

message: Some one in this page mention that billava and ezhava are completely distinct caste .The actually concept is billavas are in south Karnataka and ezhavas are in Kerala ... both ezhavas and billavas are in different state that's y billavas girls are not given to ezhavas and also distint language Tulu and Malayalam ...but both the community belongs to same customs as toddy tapping and are similar caste and follow Narayan guru and there is nothing distinct in this communities and I dont know about thiyyas they are not mentioned as billavas ...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:5481:B718:0:0:760:C0A4 (talk) 14:08, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billavas and ezhavas are similar caste