Talk:Tichborne case

message: The trial to establish his inheritance began on 11 May 1871 in the Court of Common Pleas before Sir Alexander Cockburn, 12th Baronet CJ, and lasted 102 days. Orton weathered the attacks against the discrepancies in his story and his outright ignorance of many key facts Roger would have known, including how to speak French as the heir had spent most of his youth in France.[2] Over 100 people vouched for his identity as Roger—except Orton's brother who claimed otherwise.
Roger Charles Doughty Tichborne ? I have in my notes, but no source. Rich   Farmbrough. 17:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Cockburn presided later at the Criminal trial not at the Civil trial.Neil Hayman (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

text: The article said so already at the end, so I have added it up front.  A cursory Google search gives some convincing looking links  -- ALoan (Talk) 18:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is possible Roger changed his name between his uncle dying in 1853 and his father inheriting the Doughty fortune and changing his name and Roger's own death in 1854. The claimant certainly would claim that name as he was claiming the right to the Doughty fortune. BTW does anyone know whether it was double barreled or hyphenated? --Erp (talk) 02:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Times of London seems to have consistently not used a hyphen in the coverage at that time so I have removed hyphens in the article. --Erp (talk) 14:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Name

message: Ought to be some mention of the apparently bitter Catholic v. Protestant rivalries that surrounded this case. Drutt 22:19, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to fix it, I am unaware that religion came into it.--Golden Wattle  talk 09:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure of the details, but it seems the Tichbornes were a Catholic family while the pretender was protestant, and many of his supporters believed he was victim of a Jesuit plot to dispossess him in order to maintain the estate in Catholic hands. Drutt 10:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Catholic v. Protestant rivalries 

message: Is to be found at William Cavendish-Scott-Bentinck, 5th Duke of Portland.
Are there any other examples? Jackiespeel (talk) 16:04, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Another "substitution"

message: "The slang words titch, meaning a small person, and titchy, meaning "small" or "tiny", come from the stage name of music hall star Harry Relph, known as Little Tich, an ironic reference to the size of the Tichbourne Claimant." [Italics added.]
According to p 24 of Little Tich: Giant of the Music Hall by Mary Tich (Relph's daughter) and Richard Findlater (Elm Tree Books, London 1979) the reference was not ironic. Because of Orton's size, "Tichborne" initially became an epithet meaning fat. As a child performer, Relph (born 1867) was "unusually stout for his age," and was consequently nicknamed "Young Tichborne" and "Little Tich", adopting the latter as a permanent stage name. Once Relph had slimmed to normal proportions and attained adulthood (while still being only 4'6" tall) and while people still remembered the now-imprisoned Orton the name may temporarily have seemed ironic, but that was not its original intent. In due course, with Orton forgotten and Relph famous, "Ti[t]ch/ti[t]chy" lost their original implication and gained their current one. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 06:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slightly incorrect explanation re "Titchy" 

message: The "Heir who disappeared" section is well-nigh impossible to follow without serious study.  How about a simple summary of the relevant facts that omits superfluous details such as the ridicule of his French accent? 68.239.116.212 (talk) 04:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Help the reader 

message: Which ship carrying the real Roger was allegedly lost at sea with all hands while travelling from Brazil to England ?   Ships have names and in the mid-nineteenth century ships did not just disappear without anyone noticing that they didn't turn up.Eregli bob (talk) 04:37, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The ship was the Bella bound from Rio to NY; I've added a sentence or two with a reference. Salmanazar (talk) 16:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Which ship 

message: OK, are we going to do something constructive about the weird section titles - such as maybe have a chat about them here - or are we just going to edit war till kingdom come?  --  Jack of Oz  ... speak! ...  20:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Frivolous section titles

message: I am new here and don't wish to engage in any contentious editing.But this piece contains several extremely misleading statements and perhaps is essentially tainted by undue bias.Most notably by the excision of all references, save a simple bibliographical notation,to"The Tichborne Claimant", the near definitive work of Douglas Woodruff,who devoted nearly fifty years of field research to the subject.
The article states under "Claimant emerges":Aside from some facial resemblance to Tichborne, he did not fit the description at all. Instead of sharp features and black hair, he had a rounded visage and light brown hair. He was also overweight and did not speak a word of French..... Lady Tichborne was desperate enough, however, to accept him as her son and sent him money to come to her.
Check the lengthy section of chronologically arranged photographs in Woodruff.The Claimant weighs in  at approximately twelve pounds heavier than when Roger left England.The hair is every bit as dark as formerly.The visage was  not round in his first forty years nor was it round at the end.In fact Woodruff prints,without comment. a picture of Lady Tichborne in her coffin next to a photograph of the Claimant in his.No comment is needed.The Claimant did not speak(no longer spoke?) French well but whether he spoke a word of French(a statement three times repeated in the article)depends on which witnesses one chooses to believe 
" He arrived in London on Christmas Day 1866 and visited the Tichborne estates. There he met the Tichborne family solicitor Edward Hopkins and Francis J. Baigent who became his supporters.".Actually(check Woodruff and the trial record)he arrived by train and was greeted by an enthusiastic crowd of over three hundred people.Many,if not most of whom
had known the undoubted Roger Tichborne.The claimant remained on visiting terms for several days and only a maximum of four ever withdrew their identifications of Roger Tichborne.He was also positively identified by Dr.Lipscombe the family physician.Lady Tichborne knew all this when she made her identification.
"After Lady Tichborne's acceptance..." Couldn't be more wrong and Woodruff's been available since 1956.This entire article is in need of factual revision.I suspect the hand of John Godl is in this.Neil Hayman (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Rohan McWilliam's, more recent "The Tichborne Claimant" should certainly be added to the bibliography,which includes nothing since 2001.McWilliam ,like Woodruff, is one of the few writers on who has tried to steer an absolutely judicious course through the partisan and,frequently, malicious claims which have marred most accounts of the case ever published.Neil Hayman (talk) 20:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the article until now has been inadequate, poorly researched and non-neutral in tone. But see below, and watch the article's future development. Brianboulton (talk) 23:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Question on references

message: The article needs  work to bring it up to standard, and I shall be busy with it over the next few weeks. During that period the article may at times seem somewhat lopsided and incomplete; images may disappear for a while and there may be other signs of work in  progress.  When complete I hope the article will be both comprehensive and neutral, faithfully representing the sources whether or not they support a particular view of the case.  As a gesture of intent I have begun by expanding the lead, although this may change quite a bit when the main text is complete.  The "Under construction"  banner should stay in place while the work proceeds. Brianboulton (talk) 23:01, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: I am wondering if the re-direct from Roger Tichborne to this article is best way to do this. I would have thought the Tichborne Case is a separate article from a biographical page on Roger Tichborne in the same way there is a separate article on Orton. I would like to propose creating a new page for Roger Tichborne and removing the redirect. I also would like to update many of the images which have been taken from a photo mechanical reproductions in books, also this would give me a chance to update captions and source links in some of these images which are currently broken. Eothan (talk) 01:23, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I am sorry to have to tell you that our much loved and respected colleague Brian Boulton died in late 2019. Several of us keep an eye on the 100+ articles he took to FA, and others may wish to comment on your suggestion above, but the suggestion is more likely to be seen if you add it at the foot of the page, which is where people would  usually expect to see new comments. For myself, I see no advantage in your creating an additional page for R. Tichborne, which I fear would be more likely to confuse than to help the casual visitor. Nobody, surely, will be interested in Tichborne except insofar as the case is concerned: better not to have two competing articles covering essentially the same subject, and frankly except for the case Tichborne is pretty non-notable. A judicious overhaul of the images would be fine, I am sure, though it is wise with Featured Articles to proceed with caution and not make drastic alterations or overfill the article with illustrations. Tim riley talk 08:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am sorry to hear about Brian, my condolences. I will follow your suggestion and add these comments to the foot of the page. I do however think the article will be improved by the replacement of the poor quality images with higher quality versions which I have access to and this will also enable the currently broken links to be updated. I was not suggesting adding a whole raft of new images which will affect the article's layout. Happy to take your comments re a new page for Roger Tichborne on board but the same argument could be made for Orton and if a new page was created we would be able to create an info box for him which may be of use for family historians and Wikidata. All the best Eothan (talk) 23:02, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It strikes me that the Orton article contains much more about him than could be accommodated in the Tichborne Case article, whereas there really isn't anything of interest to add about Tichborne himself (during his lifetime, at any rate). But do seek the opinions of other editors; they may or may not concur with me. As to the pictures, what you have in mind sounds splendid, and I venture to speculate that BB (a much-missed friend IRL) would have been delighted. Tim riley talk 13:21, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Tim - I might just leave this for the moment and instead try and pull together the images to update in the current article. All the best Eothan (talk) 02:13, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Article update and expansion

message: There's a pub in Sussex near Loxwood named after this case. The Sir Roger Tichborne has a pub sign with Roger T's face on one side and Arthur Orton's on the other. Their web site says established in 1873. Worth including?
http://www.thetichborne.co.uk/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.113.48.17 (talk) 09:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd say this was trivia, but not uninteresting. I'll try to devise an appropriate footnote to incorporate this information. Brianboulton (talk) 13:08, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pub 

message: *Anna Anderson who claimed to be Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia
I don't see any problem with having this in the article. Proxima Centauri (talk) 11:22, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Please explain what it has to do with the article, other than being a remotely similar case, - no reason to be included, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:58, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no connection whatever. There are lots of cases of claimed identity, none of which bear on this case. Brianboulton (talk) 13:00, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anna Anderson 

message: Will mention file The National Archives file MEPO 3/2458 - Theresa ALEXANDER alias TICHBORNE, daughter of claimant to Tichborne estates: scurrilous letters. Jackiespeel (talk) 17:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Tichborn/Orton's daughter

message: I have just completed reading The Sydney Assassins, a 1964 book that links two murders on the Parramatta River in Sydney in 1872 with the Tichbourne Claimant trial. I am going to hopefully find some time to throw together a stub on the case but would be interested to hear if anyone else knows of the case and its possible link to the Tichbourne case. --Roisterer (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Link to the Parramatta River Murders?

message: Hi, I've just uploaded a historic photograph of Orton that may be of use to this article: See File:Arthur Orton 1873.jpg. Cheers! --Animalparty-- (talk) 20:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: And I have just come across a painting of the trial in BBC Your Paintings. I hate to cram the article, but I believe the picture in question makes for a valuable addition, so I have uploaded it to Commons and placed it in what I hope is a suitable location in the article, with a caption that complements the one of the image preceding it. (Though someone else might make better arrangements or improve the caption, of course.) Waltham, The Duke of 21:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of Arthur Orton 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Any objections to throwing this article into the pile of potential TFA reruns for next year (in August or November)? Any cleanup needed? If it helps, here's a list of dead or dubious links. - Dank (push to talk) 23:09, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  TFA rerun 

message: A somewhat minor point, but is it "Titch-born" or "Tie-born"? --Muzilon (talk) 05:35, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , as someone who lives about 11 miles from it, I can confirm that the village, at least, is locally pronounced "Titch-born". Not sure where to find a Reliable Source for this, however: my OUP Dictionary of English Place Names gives etymologies but not pronunciations. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 02:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The surname is always "Titch-born". Johnbod (talk) 03:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, folks. Muzilon (talk) 12:24, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pronunciation? 

message: Mark Hodder's Steampunk novel The Curious Case of the Clockwork-Man includes the Tichborne case and characters as a central part of its storyline.
I was considering adding the above to the See Also section.  Popular references can bloat an article but that does not seem to be the case here, as this would only be the third reference.  I am at lunch and do not want to edit an article when I can't take my time and do it right, so I will probably do this sometime over the weekend, if I hear no objections.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomcoach (talk • contribs) 17:34, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a very reliable secondary source to support it? Thanks - SchroCat (talk) 18:23, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Wouldn't the book itself be a source.  Not sure how to find a secondary source for a work of fiction.  Not being argumentative, just unsure. Boomcoach (talk) 18:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I think quoting representative page numbers from the novel would suffice from the WP:V point of view, but as to whether mentioning the novel would be encyclopaedic, I am not competent to express an opinion on whether it would come under the heading of trivia or not. I don't know what "steampunk" means, but I fear the worst. Tim riley talk 19:09, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worth adding to See Also? 

message: Editors keeping an eye on this article may like to see the exchange above (sorry about this hamfisted link, but I can't get an internal anchor to work). I'm not wild about the proposal, but others may think differently. Perhaps comments could go here rather than way up the page? Easier for others to find, possibly. Tim riley talk 14:17, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Spin-off biography?

message: Please add the recently released novel 'The Fraud' by Zadie Smith to the list of publications regarding this case.
Details
Imprint: Hamish Hamilton
Published: 07/09/2023
ISBN: 9780241336991
Length: 464 pages
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308246/the-fraud-by-smith-zadie/9780241336991 82.4.189.190 (talk) 12:08, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Not done: There isn't a list of publications in the article. If you are referring to the bibliography, that's for books that have been used as sources. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me!  16:04, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2023 

message: The redirect Thomas Castro has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached.  Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 14:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  "[[:Thomas Castro]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]]