Talk:Sabbateans

message: In Turkish, the correct term is dönme (which can also mean transsexual), why is this article titled Donmeh" ? --Pylambert 12:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe it's too late but for others I should add an infolog. "Dönme" literally means "turning" or "returning" it's used like these two or more ways, there is so many words like this in Turkish language, the word comes from "dönmek" verb, here you can see: https://translate.google.com/#tr/en/dönmek Karak1lc1k 03:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Donmeh or Dönme ? 

message: I propose to change the article name to Sabbateans. Donmeh has a somewhat pejorative undertone, to put it mildly. The correct pronounciation would be "dönme" anyway, and the term is valid for anyone who changes religion, although it implies, in varying degrees depending the circomstances, disapproval of the act by those who use the term (more or less equal to "aposthate"). "Avdeti" is a neutral term in that sense, but is archaic today, very rarely used. Turks would use "Sabataycı" or "Sabetaycı". It's still not a compliment but defines the people in question better. And "Selanikli" (from Salonica) is misleading because not all Turks from Selanik are Sabbateans, although Sabbateans themselves would use that term more readily than others, if ever.  
Cretanforever  15 June 2006 (Name change proposal) 
Cretanforever,  to move Donmeh article to Sabbateans was a wrong action for several reasons. Please try to be more informed  on subject and to discuss with people here before you decided for such a move. These terms have very different meanings; Sabbateans means any follower of Sabetai, esp. believers that believed in his Messiah claim, this includes the movement before his apostasy, thus the term Sabbatean movement etc. , even after the mass conversion in Salonica in 1680s, still most believers remained within the Jewish fold. Donmeh or Donme, is a non-official turkish designation since early 18. century, only for the Muslim converts of his followers, more specifically the sect itself with particular beliefs, rituals etc. The recently coined Turkish term Sabetayci tries to replace the Donme but does not succeed because Sabetayci is used in Turkey to label living people as if they still believe in Sabetai Zevi or follow the rituals, wheras Donme means the community itself with origins in Salonica. I strongly suggest to move the article back to Donme.Argonit 22:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sabbateans 

message: The Sabbateans worshipped Shabbosai Tzvi? Is there a source for that?--Meshulam 04:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Worship Tzvi? 

message: Anyone a bit familiar with this subject and the current discussion in Turkey can see the absurdity of this list of names and surnames. This is an encyclopedia article and not a forum for allegations and claims. For most of these prominent people there is no evidence at all and even there is actually contrary evidence that they are not of Donmeh origin. Therefore I am deleting all the section until real evidence with reliable sources is supplied. The article should focus on their culture, history and beliefs. Argonit 09:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of names-reason for deletion 

message: Please put reliable links. Not gossips. Specially about Ataturk's ancestry.--Karcha 12:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Donmeh and Jews were </NPOV> understandably <NPOV> concerned about the nationally defined Greek state and its ambitions towards Salonika. They made up a surprisingly substantial portion of the Young Turk movement there. Of course there will be speculation about Salonikan Young Turks.  Jd2718 03:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  About Gossip Links 

message: I put in OR, reference and NPOV tags since the whole article seems to be standing on a bunch of gossip sites and a series of newspaper articles. Please bring in better and more impartial sources on this.. Baristarim 15:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tags

message: Please see the clarifications in this article that the Sabbateans were Jews who practiced only Judaism, but who either openly or secretly accepted Sabbatai Zevi as the one and only true Jewish Messiah. They were primarily a notable deviant Jewish sect for centuries after Zevi. On the other hand, the Donmeh, while in some ways being a branch-off of the original Sabbatians associated with some of Zevi's followers who converted to Islam with him or afterwards, were Muslims first and foremost and kept their hidden rituals of Judaic origin hidden and concealed which had no resemblence to normative Judaism. Very significantly, the majority of Jews who had followed Zevi did not convert to Islam even though they may have clung fervently to their belief in him as a (temporarily failed for some) Jewish Messiah. This is a crucial difference bteween the "conventional" Sabbateans and the "unconventional" Donmeh, and to lump the Donmeh with all Sabbateans is a gross error, a misuse of the term "Sabbateans" and an insult to Jewish history and accepted scholarship. This is a complex area of Jewish history that is prone to misunderstanding and needs to be approached with great caution.  IZAK 06:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it odd that Donmeh has a note across the top distinguishing between them and Sabbateans, but every paragraph of Donmeh (except the first) refers to them as "Sabbateans". After the first paragraph, the only other use of the word "Donmeh" is in the "External Links". — Malik Shabazz | Talk 00:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Donmeh" and "Sabbateans" is NOT the same thing! 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Talk: Table of prophets of Abrahamic religions#Nathan of Gaza relation to Judaism, Wondering if it a sect, a movement, or a whole separate religion. Apha9 (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: That table is not important and not serious. Nobody is looking at that rather awkward table with any degree of seriousness. As for the Sabbatean sect, it was an illegitimate, hidden sect in Judaism for a while, after the alleged messiah converted to Islam. The parts of the sect that also converted to Islam following the example of the false "messiah,' were also officially Muslims. So the sect was a hidden, illegitimate sect in both Judaism and Islam. Enough of all this silliness because of an unimportant, unserious, awkward table that should rather be deleted. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 02:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text:   The table is important that is why there a Wikipedia page on it. You see this conversation as a WP:DEADHORSE, but insist on continuing to discuss this topic and hate on the table. Apha9 (talk) 19:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Nobody cares about that unimportant, rather silly table other than you. Sabbateanism in not an "Abrahamic religion." There aren't any reliable sources for your misinformed idea. This is a dead horse that only you keep insisting on beating. You were informed of all this multiple times by more than one editor. I will just keep reverting you until you desist. warshy (¥¥) 20:10, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

text: I agree with everything  has just said. Jayjg (talk) 20:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: " You were informed of all this multiple times by more than one editor."- warshy. The only two people to discuss this topic with me are you two. which are technically more than one. Apha9 (talk) 20:31, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You have been advised multiple times to desist from this whole misinformed silliness, for which there are no reliable sources. This is all just your own invention, out of whole cloth. Enough said. warshy (¥¥) 20:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a topic for debate isn't that why you brought it back instead of archiving it? Apha9 (talk) 20:46, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: , please review WP:NOTAFORUM. Jayjg (talk) 22:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Sabbateanism an Abrahamic Religion?