Talk:Battlecruiser

message: I've done some work cleaning this up regarding conversions and general tidying up, but I have deleted the WW2 sections that solely involved the German pocket battleships and the Scharnhorst class. I've left the section covering them in the design section, as well as the Dunkerques until we have a better consensus about what to do about them. Personally, I think that all we need is a bit explaining why they aren't really battlecruisers, no matter what ignorant authors call them. This needs to be resolved soon as we're only a couple FA or FL class articles away from being able to submit the largest Featured Topic in all of Wikipedia. Admittedly we only need to get it past GA for the nonce, but we need to decide the basics now.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Once I get home in a week, I'll start adding cites and revising more of the text once I have access to my library. (We need to use a lot less of Breyer, IMO, since he's wrong on Tiger's design history and a number of other things.)--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:10, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Did some more clean up and added referencing for the last couple of sections. Getting ready to purge the section on naval rearmament to cover just the Dutch proposal, the O class and the Kronstadts. I'd like some guidance on what sections are thought to need expansion/contraction/rewriting.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 07:10, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hang on. There was no consensus for changing the rearmament section. In particular the section describes the tit-for-tat evolution of German and French capital ship designs and how they move away from the battlecruiser concept. This is useful material and should not be removed. Wiki-Ed (talk) 10:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the article isn't going to cover the Dunkerques, Deutschlands, Scharnhorsts or Richelieus since none of them are battlecruisers, there's not much left other than what I mentioned earlier, n'est-ce pas?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: The article should cover ships which are considered (by a smaller but not insignificant number of historical sources) as battlecruisers and other ships which influenced their development. In this case, the ships you've listed illustrate the inter-war evolutionary move away from the battlecruiser and towards the fast battleship and are, therefore, an important part of the history of the ship class. We only agreed to remove the war time actions involving those ships because to include them suggested that the consensus view here was in favour of treating them as battlecruisers when the debate is seemingly weighted against that view. Wiki-Ed (talk) 11:41, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that the Deutschlands and Scharnhorsts shouldn't be included, as they are both clearly not battlecruisers, and the latter were not thought of by even the Germans as battlecruisers. While you have a point with the Dunkerques where do we draw the line? I think that instead of a paragraph focusing on each of these classes in turn, the article may be better served by having a section (or two paragraphs) explaining the shift from a more general perspective. This will sidestep this whole issue and allow us to focus on battlecruisers as much as possible. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 11:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't want to start this all over again, but the Scharnhorsts were considered to be battlecruisers by the British - as mentioned/referenced in the article - and by a fair number of historical sources. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the section as it stands. It is well referenced, illustrated, and comprehensive, but not overly detailed on ships which don't fit quite as neatly into the category. By contrast the section on "Cruiser Killers"/the Alaskas is too long and has much less historical value. Anyway, trying to write something out of an article which contradicts a proportion of the sources is not compatible with WP:NPOV. It will just keep coming back so better to keep it as it is. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Preliminary cleaning 

message: *Do we really need all those tiny subsections in the WWI section? It would be much better to merge the smaller ones
**Done.
*In the rebuilding programmes section, it mentions first that Hood and Repulse did not get the same kind of modernization as Renown did. Then later it states that the only exceptions to the modernization programs were Hood and Yavuz. This needs to be straightened out. 
**How does it read now?
* - I do think it's worthwhile to at least mention which ships these are - the Deutschlands, Scharnhorsts, Dunkerques, etc., and then make clear that the majority of historians/analysts/whatever consider them to be heavy cruisers/battleships/whatever. 
**This is covered in the lede by note 1. Is it really worthwhile to cover it again?
*In the WWII section - same as above. And why is the Denmark Strait section out of chronological order?
**Reworked.
*In the large cruiser section, it mentions that the Soviet Navy considered building such ships, and then does not mention them.
*As far as I'm aware, GlobalSecurity isn't considered a good source. But I could be wrong.
*We need a citation from Jane's on the Kirovs - GS doesn't mention anything about that.
I hope this helps with further development of the article. Parsecboy (talk) 20:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  General comments 

message: .... I just read this long, thorough, interesting article, but I was struck by what seems like a major omission. At the end, it currently says "In spite of the fact that after World War II, most navies abandoned the battleship and battlecruiser..." So -why- were battlecruisers/(& battleships?)(I'm no expert here) abandoned? Can that info be included? thanks. (This is the first time I've entered anything on a Wikipedia talk page!)Sqzx (talk) 06:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I edited the above to make it easier to understand. Basically by the end of WW2 the CV had been shown to be the dominant naval force, and BCs and BBs were struggling to find a useful role. As offshore batteries they were useful but not cost effective, for AA more, smaller, ships were better, and in all other respects CVs had them beat. So they got turned into razor blades.Greglocock (talk) 10:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That's a good idea - certainly something that should be clarified before the article goes to A-class/FAC. Parsecboy (talk) 11:58, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: A request