Talk:The Dark Knight Returns

message: I removed the Analysis section from this section entirely because it was not only a fairly bad and superficial analysis to begin with, but it was based on certain faulty premises – for example, it stated that the Two-Face's return to a life of crime was prompted by the Batman's reappearance, but in the book, we can clearly see Two-Face procuring men for the bank job that will finance the larger operation he's planning before Bruce Wayne becomes the Batman again. At that point, he is already being sought by the police. Also, the analysis misses the major themes of the book entirely. It completely ignores key things, such as the Batman's overpowering, even pathological personal obsession and his unwillingness to compromise, as well as the important role the oppressive and inefficient government plays in the story... among other things.
Unfortunately, I can't turn that into a more accurate analysis simply by editing what's already there and don't have the time to write up a new one from scratch right now, but leaving false information in place didn't sit well with me, either, so I just took it off entirely. I'll try and replace it with a better one soonish.--Captain Disdain 16:41, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headline text 

message: I suggest renaming this article to reflect the actual title of the book, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns because it is more accurate. Chris Griswold 17:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename Suggested to Reflect Title (2006) 

message: This article previously reported that The Joker killed himself, breaking his own neck to frame Batman.
This isn't so, I just spent a depressing amount of time looking over that page and am completely certain that it was Batman who broke Joker's neck. The Joker was stabbing Bats in the guts, and Batman had both his hands around Joker's head and neck. In fact, most of the book was leading to the conclusion that letting Joker live had always been a mistake.
It's a significant point, because Batman's mission had always been to end killing; Joker was the first person he'd ever killed (on purpose, perhaps).
::Well, you may be completely certain, but I'm sorry, that's not what happens on the page. The book makes it completely clear that the Joker snaps his own neck. In the book, they struggle; the Batman grabs the Joker's head and starts twisting it, while the Joker stabs him repeatedly with the knife. Certainly, the Batman does some serious damage to the Joker's neck; he stops moving and falls down. The witnesses see this, freak out and run away. "I hear... voices... voices calling me... a killer... I wish I were...", the Batman's internal narration says.
::But the Joker speaks up after that, which he obviously couldn't do if he were dead. "They're gone...? The witnesses, I mean... I'm really... very disappointed with you, my sweet... the moment was... perfect... and you... didn't have the nerve... paralysis... really... Just an ounce or two more of pressure... and... do I hear... sirens? Yes... Coming close... you won't get far... But then... it doesn't matter... if you do... they'll kill you for this... and they'll never know... that you didn't have the nerve... I'll... see you... in hell--"
::At which point, the Joker starts to snap his own neck by twisting it. The Batman's narration continues: "With a devil's strength... he twists and twists... what's left of his spine goes... whatever's in him rustles as it leaves."
::There's no ambiguity here. The Joker killed himself purely so that the Batman would be blamed for his death. I'm a little surprised that you would actually read the page and not come to that conclusion, because, as you say, it's a significant point. It's certainly true that the Batman broke the Joker's neck, but that just left him paralyzed. He could have lived; he chose not to.
:::I'm not sure what the disagreement is here.  If you reread the section in question you see that Batman intends to kill the Joker and goes so far as to twist the Joker's neck until it breaks, but he can't bring himself to complete the job.  The Joker's spine is damamged to the point of paralysis but he himself twists his neck enough to further damage his spine enough to kill himself. Molon Labe (talk) 09:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joker's Death 

message: I just read the story for the first time this morning and checked the article here for  some more background information. For the character description of Batman, this is listed: "He gave up the Batman identity ten years ago, strongly hinted as a reaction to the death of the former Robin, Jason Todd." If DKR came out in 1985/86 and Todd's death in the canon-universe came in 1988/89, is it just inferred in DKR that Todd had died of unexplained causes? Olessi 17:03, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Jason Todd

message: No doubt many will find what I'm about to say a bit nit-picky (if not a bit ridiculous), but nevertheless here goes: Wikipedians who write articles dealing with comic books might want to settle upon some term of art to use in place of the word "comic" (the adjectival noun indicating some thing's linkage to the world of comic books), so as to avoid confusion with the homophonic/homographic "comic" (the adjective indicating a thing's relation to comedy, as in, "Catch-22 is a comic masterpiece"). Yeah, I know it sounds ridiculous, but here's an example of what I mean, with the relevant word bolded, from the subsection of this article, entitled "Reputation":
::[Frank Miller] adopted visual styles and "tricks" from noir novels and movies. These included dividing pages into many, many frames to give the impression of slow motion (possibly the best comic interpretation of Thomas and Martha Wayne's murders is achieved by this). 
Now, while it's true that anyone who's familiar with the comic book in question will be able to deduce from context that the writer isn't claiming that this is the funniest interpretation of the Waynes' deaths, or that it's the best of the funny interpretations of said death--nevertheless, a certain ambiguity (and a rather comic one, at that) remains. I'd like to remind my fellow comic book-reading Wikipedians out there that our audience isn't made up of people who are already as knowledgable on these matters as we are--otherwise, this whole portion of the encyclopedia would be nothing but a vanity project, right? 
Maybe this is just me spitting into the wind, here, worrying about things that are largely beyond the control of a few encyclopedia writers. But then again I also imagine most comic book artists in this day and age would like people to take their work as artists seriously, and it's a bit hard to do that when that unfortunate moniker is attached to what they do... Anyway, I could have just edited the above-quoted passage for clarity, but it occured to me that there might be one or two people out there besides me who have thought about this issue. Anyone feel like contributing to this discussion?
--Buck 02:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comic Tragedy: No Laughing Matter 

message: "While there is a generic and omniscient narrator, the most important narration comes from inside various character's heads: Batman, Jim Gordon, Robin, Catwoman, Alfred and even the Joker all are opened up to examination."
Having just re-read DKR, I cannot think of any instance of a 'generic and omniscient narrator'. I can't think of any place where the narrator is anyone other than one of the stories characters. 
I'll double check tonight (I was just looking for an excuse to re-read, again) but I think this needs to change. JayDee 08:47, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, found it. One pages where the various copycats are described, and one section where you could argue that the narrator is Albert, talking about himself in the third person. I'll leave the article as is. JayDee 11:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  'generic and omniscient narrator' 

message: I am removing the recent anonymous addition of this section on religion.  The author claims that DKR is "a retelling of the book of revelations" and lists "obvious references" that are, well, not that obvious. Without references to outside citations, this section appears to be a personal interpretation of the story, not an obvious act on the part of Miller. This falls under Wikipedia's policy of no original research and is therefore inappropriate for this article.  If someone can provide specific analysis by Miller or a reputable comics critic, there might be room to include this idea in a different form. ~CS 01:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relations to Religion 

message: I beleive the referance to a powered exoskeleton to be questionable in it's terminology.  Not to pick nits, but I think using a more easily understood term like powered armor might be more appropriate, as exo-skeleton often assumes a more medical reason for use.  I won't change the referance myself if anyone wishes to discuss it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Violet Grey (talk • contribs) 
Sign your comments, add new topics to the bottom of the page, et cetera, et cetera. I can agree with your points, but I've come to learn that not everything should be dumbed down for the reader. "Exoskeleton" is the better term as that's what it truely is. This is Batman, not Steel. He's worn armor in some cases, but the robatsuit is totally different. ACS (Wikipedian) 16:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Powered Exoskeleton Referance 

message: What is the name of the Joker's accomplice? His name is not mentioned in the article, but he plays a fairly important role in the story, first sabotaging Two-Face's bombs and later aiding the Joker. I'm not an expert on the DC Universe, and all I know for sure is that he's not a really well known villain, and that his trademark seems to be making dolls that explode. I currently don't have access to my copy of DKR, but if someone could check to see if his name is mentioned, I think it would be worth mentioning in the article.
Smooth Nick 04:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I can't find mention of a name with a quick scan of DKR. But that sort of thing is typical of DKR, he might be a regular Batman character with a name mentioned somewhere else.--DCAnderson 04:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Joker's Accomplice 

message: When you talk about the way in which superheros are reffered to, i.e. their alter ego's names, you don't make much mention of how this is tied in with the idea that were "banished", for lack of a better word.  This "banishment" is mentioned in other graphic novels, e.g. DK2, Watchmen, ect., and is an intregal part of the story.  This is a very important theme that come up not only in DKR but the sequal and other graphic novels (Watchmen, Kingdom Come, ect.).  This is also very important to Batman's Character in DKR because it shows why he has such a disdain towards Superman.  This theme also shows a move in comics in general towards that darker and grittier side where superheros are less idolized, something that was fairly new in DC comics.  I would consdier adding this to your article.--Fmandog85 13:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reputation: Banishment of Superheros 

message: :Numerous public figures were blatantly lampooned, including Ronald Reagan, Dr. Ruth, David Letterman, and the hosts of Crossfire,
I'm not entirely sure what part of the comic this sentence is referring to, but I don't think there's a spoof of Crossfire in DKR. I think maybe whoever wrote this mistook a parody of 60 Minutes' "Point/Counterpoint" segment (the title of the segment in the comic is given as "Point vs. Point") for Crossfire. Bgruber 07:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Crossfire?

message: In Batman: The Animated Series Season 2, Episode 06 is a child telling a story that heavily references this Frank Miller graphic novel, even direct quotes, and it is very cool. I just wanted to let everyone know, and recommend it strongly. 65.185.115.143 04:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oops, this was me. Forgot to login, sorry. Dumbwhiteguy777 04:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Addition to Homage section

message: I am going to add a section that deals with the historical and literary aspects of the dark knight; primiarly the comic book crack down of the 50s and references to stories like fall of the house of usher and clock work organge.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.186.131.65 (talk • contribs); Please sign your posts!
:If it'll be anything like your comment to this talk page, I'd rather you not. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 21:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I suggest you familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:No original research before you make such edits. ~CS 01:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: history and literature

message: I think we're getting way too bloated in the synopsis: too many instances of interpretation w/out citation. A synopsis is supposed to describe the story, not be a section for random analysis of why the bat crashes thru the window of Wayne Manor prompting Bruce to re-don the cape n' cowl. Unless there's a reasonable objection in a few days, I'm gonna do some heavy editing... Tommyt 20:59, 10 January 2007 
(UTC)
:I finally shrunk the syopsis down to what's necessary, and another user reverted it. I know from discussions both here and at WT:CMC that the smaller summary has community support. --Chris Griswold  (☎☓) 22:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I agree -- an encyclopedia article should not be a detailed description of an entire book; it should be and article *about* the book, not a reproduction of it.  The previous version of this summery had three problems: it was too long and detailed, it was poorly written grammatically (beginning repeated paragraphs with "but," using shorthand instead of prose), and it was poorly written stylistically (vague statements, rambling, floating parentheticals, including interpretation as summary).   The rest of the article is still weak, but eliminating some of the bloated summery improves it dramatically. ~CS 01:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I suggest some heavy editing of this article... 

message: Okay it expalins why he wears the target on his chest but someone on a forum said the DKR also expalis why Robin wears all those bright colors...Does it?
No such thing appears in the book. 24.187.77.211 20:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robin  

message: Not a word about the "corto maltese" island ? Clearly named after Hugo Pratt's Character Corto Maltese as Miller stated he was a great admirer of Hugo Pratt's work.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.250.140.180 (talk) 17:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Corto Maltese 

message: I see Gnat Rat was mentioned but Silver Snail's Pork Knight was a published parody well before and is very faithful in terms of composition. It has the painfully small TV captions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.187.77.211 (talk) 20:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Silver Snail's Pork Knight 

message: Why does this article even exist?  Chapters in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns article is also about DKR.  Aside from it's questionable title, the article has no current editing talk.  I suggest that that article be renamed and replace this one.Djtron 02:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two articles? 

message: This article is the current focus of the Comics Project Improvement Drive. The aim is to focus the eyes of the project here and help bring the article up in quality.
The first step is to run through the article and throw and see if there are any minor fixes that can be done and then throw in thoughts on areas to address. There is also a sub-section below for people to add useful resources that can be added to the article to help flesh out the real world aspects. (Emperor 23:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Comics Project Improvement Drive

message: If you know of any useful articles, interviews, studies, etc. then add then in here and we can work on integrating them into this entry. NB if they aren't easily accessible then drop in a note if you have it and a precis of the important and relevant bits would be a great help. It'd also be best if the references are templated before being put in the article. (Emperor 23:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Resources

message: Batman (Dark Knight Universe)?  -- Robocoder (t|c) 18:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See also? 

message: Pretty much the entire section constitutes original research unless some cites can be added, stat. I see that the citation flag has been up for months- if nothing happens soon the section should be removed. 206.218.218.49 (talk) 15:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The analysis it provides is interesting and I agree with most of it, especially the comparitions between Miller's version and that of others such as Neal Adams, Adam West or Bob Kane. --Marktreut (talk) 18:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Reputation" section 

message: Selina, She shows up halfway through 'Hunt the Dark Knight'. 
I think she is cat woman, but that was just a guess.
Who is she, and can you prove it?
::She really let herself go. lol.   :D
Ok, since the Catwoman wiki does list her as catwoman, please link to that page.
Sean  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanearlyaug (talk • contribs) 19:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is selina? 

message: This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject.  If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class.  The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject.  Comics-awb (talk) 15:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

message: Do we really need a disumbuguation for Dark Knight, the name of the article is the Dark Knight 'Returns. --Harvey "Two-Face" Dent   (Muhaha!!) 17:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Disumbug?

message: Strictly speaking, the series was called simply Batman: The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight Returns was the title of the first issue.—Chowbok ☠ 04:28, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Series title 

message: Despite Wayne's funding the rehabilitation of Harvey Dent (Two-Face), Dent returns to crime. Wayne puts on the Batman costume again to apprehend Dent, but the populace debates whether Batman is a savior. This is not right looking at the first issue - he's wearing the costume when he finds a coin that leads him to suspect that Dent has returned to crime. --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I copied and pasted that plot summary from an earlier version of the page. Feel free to edit it, but we should try to keep it around the same length. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  plot 

message: the original live action batman, adam west actually showed interest of doing a DKR movie with him as bruce if I remember correctly just though it should be looked into and added to the article-76.21.106.232 (talk) 10:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adam West 

message: If I remember right, it's not the nuclear winter that causes the chaos, it's the EMP. Batman complains that the Russians had researched the effect of detonating it in the atmosphere.--Eckertbt (talk) 18:31, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nuclear Blast 

message: There's nothing about the absolute impact that the comic had on the readers and the DC Universe. I mean, the reception section only has one New York Times review (negative, by the way) and one contemporary IGN review, very thin for a comic so important and highly regarded. It actually makes it seem like the comic book generated mixed reactions, which is not true, it was a critical success. George qwerty (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reception and Reputation 

message: It says in this article that Wayne is 55 in this comic, but the Batman article that he is 50. What is his actual age in the comic? Jedi Striker (talk) 17:05, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wayne's age? 

message: In the opening stages of The Dark Knight Returns, Bruce Wayne goes to the place where his parents died and says that Batman was born there forty years ago. This would make Bruce 15 years old when his parents died, which seems unlikely. Was it officially stated in the book that he was 55 years old?. Aassdddai (talk) 07:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, it does say at the end that he is 55. But he keeps reminiscing about thirty, twenty, forty years ago in the book that is doesn't make much sense. Aassdddai (talk) 08:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wayne's age continued 

message: Does Roy or anyone else named Harper appear in this? I remember that Ollie does just not sure bout Speedy.
Reason I ask is in the Girl Meets World episode, the teacher Harper Burgess mentions to Riley "My father gave me my love of books, he's why I became a teacher. It's why he named me Harper. You'll figure it out."
I don't know if she meant to imply the answer to her name was in TDKR or if more broadly that introducing them to DC Comics would lead them to encounter Roy Harper. 64.228.91.102 (talk) 21:32, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Roy Harper

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thread_title:  External links modified