Talk:Pannonian Avars/Archive 1

message: Many things stated in this article seem rather dubious to me.  For example: "Their relation to the Hephthalite has been demonstrated."  
: The demonstration of an Avar relationship to the Hephthalites is a widespread notion due to deductions made from the documentations of early greek writers like Simokattes, Procopius, Menanda etc. here are just a few sites from the internet it took me about 5 seconds to find these and there are plenty more. www.silk-road.com/artl/heph.shtml members.tripod.com/great-bulgaria/Central-Asian-Nomads-Unite/ origins.html members.tripod.com/great-bulgaria/Central-Asian-Nomads-Unite/ origins.html  basically anyone who can be considered to know a fair iota about the Avars knows about this connection. User:Zestauferov
Also, the statements about 'Hebrews' 
: off the top of my head have a look at A. Scheiber "Jewish inscriptions in Hungary from the 3rd Century to 1686" (1983) or many things from Jewish Studies journals like V.L.Vikhnovich "From the Jordan to the Dneiper" from Jewish Studies 31 (1991). User:Zestauferov
and 'Mongolian skeletons'
: try Istvan Erdelyi's "Kabari (Kavari) v Karpatskom Basseyne" specifically page 179 from Sovietskaya Archeologiya 4 (1983) User:Zestauferov
...  Basically what this article lacks is any factual back up.  A paper trail.  
:!!
I would never rest on a few choice linguistic simularities as a back-bone of an argument.  R.L. Trask, a Historical Linguist, has shown that any list of simular words between different ethnolinguistic groups may exist purely due to coincidence (he uses a list of Hawaiian and Greek words to demonstrate this).  
:what point relevant to the article are you making here please? User:Zestauferov
And where is the information about the skeletons from? 
: see above User:Zestauferov
How does one define 'Mongolian'?  
: It is another way of saying "Aboriginal Siberian Type" as in similar to those people from (surprise, surprise) Mongolia! It is a politer phraseology than refering to Mongoloid which is fading out of use these days along with dated terms like Negroid (except apparently people like you!) User:Zestauferov
And how were the skeletons identified as Avars? 
: now you are just being silly but see below and read the papers suggested above for specialist info (or email me for a reading list on dating archeaological finds and the related problems).User:Zestauferov
Central Asia today is peopled by groups of varyingly mixed ancestry--one can see it plainly. 
: that is a typical ethnocentric statement. In fact Central asia is still inhabited by the same physical type that has been there for centuries (except for a few tens of million more Europeans thanks to Russia). Their "obviously much mixed physical types" is the original out of which distilled "East European Types" "Iranian Types", "Pamir Types" "Chinese Types" etc.. User:Zestauferov
It would seem more likely that any 'Avar skeletons' would bare both European and Asian (or, Caucasoid and Mongoloid, if you prefer) features. 
: to be sure the carpathian basin has a huge variety of skulls burried scattered about it I don't think anyone is disputing that fact. The info in the article is relevant only to the Avar area which later became the Kabar domain where Mongolian Type skeletons appear in the more noble graves dated to the Avar period. User:Zestauferov
Honestly, this article smells abit of crack-pot history.  No offense, of course.  
:actually I am offended and maybe it is just you are the wrong person in line this week but I am sick and tired of poorly-read individuals (not even with enough knowledge to call themselves amateurs) criticizing scholarly efforts from people who really do try hard and do well on this site simply because the info is of a higher callibre than that which you can read in the most popular encyclopaedias. The most sickening thing is people like you think if it has not been written about IN ENGLISH it does not exist at all (an example from earlier this month is even having English-only-speakers telling Jews we must be Judaean and not a Benjaminite or even Hebrew just because that word is not used to describe ethnic Jews in english! Now how is that for an example of imperialism in language?) Well let me tell anyone reading this something. The original articles you can read here at wiki have been composed free-of-charge by people who love their subjects rather than by general researchers gathering info on topics they have been given with no enthusiasm for finding all the perameters of the topic who get a monthly paycheck whether they do a good job or not! All they have to worry about is whether the format is correct, the paragraphs read easily, the spelling is standard et.. The days of high quality research for encyclopaedias even for renouned companies like Brittanica are even getting distant. Just compare the wealth of info and objectivity on a topic like Scythians from a 1952 version with the bare (usually erroneous) fact pompous style of a modern version and you can see what I mean. User:Zestauferov
I personally am not learned enough in the realm of the Avars. 
: THAT my friend is very obvious! User:Zestauferov
It is for that reason, in fact, that I came upon this article.  I'd love for the author (Zestauferov?) to prove him(/her)self.  I am open-minded.  I just need credible evidence.  Peace.  User:D.E. Cottrell
:And peace be with you also I should I suppose thank you for editing your words from saying that it stank to saying it smelt a little, but the first thing you wrote stung a little. I am willing to edit the anger out of this post if you appologise and re-work your original question to a more honest inquisitive style and not let so much of your "White Hun" fascist agenda come out. If you are not of the latter then you ought to be aware that the field I focus on is full of them and their latent ideas. The fact is this, The vast majority of Europeans do NOT preserve the original physical features of any Hunnic ancestors they may possess. This does not mean we might not descend from them, even 100 times over, it just means that we are very mixed and no nation can claim pure descent from another and the best we might say could sound something like "Central Eurasians is that they are descended from Central Eurasians". We can at least be proud of our ancestry if we feel the nomad inside (though it probably has more to do with one's psychologocal than genetic background) and if we feel like it refresh the Central Eurasian bloodline by moving to central Eurasia and starting a family with someone from there. I will re-vamp the entire article to make it more readable, categorized and less meandering. I will have no hard feelings if you do not and lets edit this talk later to make it less personal and more useful. After you appologise you can edit my text and I will edit yours so that the useful info remains and the pointless jabs dissappear. User:Zestauferov
__
To speak colloqially: dude, chill!  Yowza.  I had no idea I'd get this kind of rise out of you.  I never intended to insult you.  I wanted your sources and I commend you for producing the paper trial you lacked.
White Hun fascist agenda!?  I have no idea what that's about.  I never said Huns were 'White,' nor am I a fascist.  If you knew me, you'd laugh at such a statement.
How is it ethnocentric to call Central Asia mixed?  Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in Genes, Peoples, and Languages (2000) did not use genetic data from Central Asia for that reason.  Saka intermarried with Turks.  How is that not mixed?
And yes, I accept the fact that nomadic populations had an impact in Europe.  However, the extent to which that occurred is up for debate.  As a general rule, pastoralist societies have smaller populations than agricultural ones.  The main mode of subsistance, and I doubt I need to tell you this, of Europe for thousands of years before the Huns was agriculture.  The logical conclusion of this would be that Huns (and Magyars, Avars, et cetera) had a limited genetic impact.  I believe Sforza's results are that (in Hungarians) a 10% 'asiatic' genetic component (though I may be remembering the results for Finns).  This goes with what you said, that no nation can claim a pure heritage.  Such claims are dangerous, ignorant conveniances.
When I wrote Negroid and Mongoloid I did not write out of belief in racial classification.  I attempted to understand your classification.  I personally do not buy into racial concepts.  Speaking in ethnic terms is a bit more accurate, but even then, as we can see so clearly here, there is confusion and the potential for useless conflict.
I understand you were angry, and I apologize for making you that way.  No hard feelings.
D.E. Cottrell 09:06, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dubiosities 

message: There are the Avars which are the nomadic tribes that this article is about, and there are the Avars which are the predominant inhabitants of Dagestan, numbering 501,000. I suggest that this should become a disambiguation page, because on the List of ethnic groups page, it mentions Avars as the Dagestani type, but it goes to this page.
Dagestan
This article is about the same Avars that live in Dagestan.  The article even mentions Dagestan.  Isomorphic 02:32, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: A connection between the European Avars and the Caucasian Avar and Kabard is severely questioned
The Right Thing To Do is to have separate articles with each including a section that a minority opinion believes that a connection exists. Ddama
Exactly. Besdies, the famous Muslim leader Imam Shamil was a Dagestani Avar. He was not a European Avar. Dagestan
So... what are we going to do about it? If no one replies, I will take matters into my own hands. Most of the people agree anyway. Dagestan
The section "Classical sources" would be improved by relating it directly to some classical sources. Wetman 22:35, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Avars]] should become a disambiguation page 

message: Are the Avars Germanic?
:Noone knows. The latest Britannica says: "of undetermined ethnicity". I suppose our article should be purged of unverified speculations. --Ghirla -трёп- 18:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avars ethnicity 

message: Is there any information as to which language the ancient Avars spoke?--Johannes Rohr 15:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No. --Ghirla -трёп- 16:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, however, there is an article in the German section, :de:Altawarische Sprache which claims i.a. that ancient Avaric was a Turkic language, closely related to the Hunnic language, written in a Turkic runic script, in something called "Talas style" and that the name of the language would have been "Avar tila" in ancient Avaric. I wonder what to make out of this, and would be grateful for a second opinion. --89.50.36.122 12:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Spoof. There is no substantial record of the Avar language to draw a conclusion as to its character. Ditto about the Hunnic. --Ghirla -трёп- 12:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks. Can you tell me, to your knowledge, which kind of record does exist? --Johannes Rohr 13:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avar language? 

message: Omeljan Pritsak about Caucasian Avars in Daghestan:
Omeljan Pritsak Proto-Mongols in Khazarian Transcaucasia
It used to be considered that the Mongols appeared in history at the turn of the 12th century as Chingiz Khan formed his empire. Now we know with the help of the analysis of the Chinese sources that the Proto-Mongols were one of the key players in the struggle for hegemony in the "northern lands" of the Eurasian steppe. The Chinese sources call them "Eastern Barbarians" (Tung-hu); their opponents were dubbed the Hsiung-nu. As to the Tung-hu, they were divided into the Wu-huan and Hsien-pi. Among the Hsien-pi, the main role was played by the K'u-mo and Hsi, and also a new political organization formed by the northern Chinese imperial dynasty, the T'o-po. The name of the K'u-mo Sinologists have reconstructed as *Ku-mak and the Hsi as Qay. On the northern Caucasus, which was the border zone between the Sassanids (and latter the Islamic Caliphate) and the Khazar Kaganate at the time of its flower, we find the same Proto-Mongol structures that we find on the northeastern Chinese border. The main role there was played by the "true Avars" (*Ahwar /Wuhuan), the *Sebirs (Hsien-pi), the K'u-mo and the *Qay+lan/Qay+dag (Hsi). The author was able to locate more than 30 Proto-Mongolian etymons in medieval sources of Byzantino-Arabo-Iranian, Armenian, Syrian and Georgian origin. Of them 12 are from the language of the Qay, 8 from the Sebirs, 6 from the Avars, and 2 from the K'u-mo. http://ssvit.iatp.org.ua/sum/sum96~1.htm
Nordkaukasier
80.237.10.233 20:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eurasian Avars in Daghestan 

message: I have had to remove the following from the page in order to highlight a point for discussion.
:- known as Zhuan Zhuan to the ChineseK.H. Menges, "Altaic people", Encyclopaedia Iranica, v, p. 908-912, Online Edition (LINK) 
:Like the later Mongols and Qitan, the Avars belonged to the Śyän-bi tribal confederation, and are "without doubt the first Mongolian tribe to be historically attested"K.H. Menges, "Altaic people", Encyclopaedia Iranica, v, p. 908-912, Online Edition (LINK)
The problem is that the European Avars have never been directly connected with the Rouran and the matter is highly complicated. Please read up on the story of Sarosios for further clarification, and the story of the Asian Avars, only to which the lower reference quoted above applies. Kaz 22:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed for discussion 

message: About Avarian (Pseudo-Avarian) anthropology:"Liptak (1955) went into the details of Avar Period’santhropology in his candidate degree thesis.He stated his opinion that archeological chronology system was simply wrong.According to Liptak, too much cemeteries were dated for the 8th century and too few for the 7th and the 9th centuries.He pointed out as an obvious contradiction the fact, that 7th century, early Avar anthropological material was almost exclusively Europid, while grave-goods indicated Middleand Central Asian parallels. On the other hand there were cemeteries dated for the 8th century that contained Mongoloid elements among others. The attire and armament introduced by the Avars was rapidly adapted by other ethnic groups, it became the general fashion of the region in the 7th century.Therefore the separation of autochton elements was (and is)simply impossible by archeological means. That is why Liptak strongly emphasized that to talk of Avar Period population makes much more sense than to stick with the phrases of “the Avars” and of “Avar population”... Liptak outlined his view that the gracile Mediterranean type was autochton, while the brachycran Europid types were partly typical of the local inhabitants,partly they migrated to the Central Danubian Basin with the Avars. He found the origin of Cromagnoids, Nordoids and large stature Mediterraneans uncertain, and he indicated migration as the probable reason of their emergence. Liptak mentioned the Asiatic origin of Mongolid and Mongoloid population elements, but he did not go into the details of any closer relationship or parallel. Liptak analysed the Avar Period population of the Danube-Tisza midland region and stated that 80% of them was of Europid character.He separated narrow-faced dolichomorph types (Nordoid, Mediterranean) in 38%, broad-faced Cromagnoid types (A and B) in 22.6%, and brachycran forms(Pamirian, Dinarian, Near Eastern and short-headed individualsof undefined origin) in 17.1%... He found the tall stature, dolichomorph, narrow-faced variation (its frequency was 22%) non-homogenous. Liptk put the northern (Nordic) and tall Mediterraneans under this heading.He separated two regional varieties, a western(Atlanto-) Mediterranean one and an eastern or Indo-Iranian one...Liptak considered the gracile Mediterranean (Ibero-Cromagnoid types Insular) type the most significant component of the Avar Period population. The that were classified the descendants of the Upper-Palaeolithic Cromagnon race were rated important components of the Avar Period population by Liptak. He added that these types kept their significance in the Arpadian Age as well. The author put Pamirian (Pamiro-Ferganian), Dinarian, Alpine and Near Eastern (Armenoid types under the heading of brachycran) elements... Their presence was insignificant in the Avar Period. Liptak paid the most attention to the Turanid (South-Siberian)and to the Ural types from the Europo-Mongoloids. Noneof the two had much significance in the Avar Period, but they were dominant among the conquering Hungarians. Liptak identified and described in detail three kinds among the Mongoloids of the Avar Period: the Northern-Chinese(Chinid), the Central Asian Mongol and the palaeo-Siberian types. He considered the two later types the keycomponents of Avar Period Mongolids...Liptak voted for the dual origin theory when studying the ethnogenesis of the Avars.He called true-born (pure blooded)Avar (Varchonite) those small series which were characterized by Mongolid and Mongoloid features. According to Liptak’s opinion the progenitors of the Vachonite originated from beyond Lake Baykal,and they migrated into Southern- Central Asia only sometime later.From there they were forced out by the Turkis hpeoples, and so they escaped into the Central Danubian Basin.There were series with acomparatively high ratio of the Iranian type (Kiskoros-Varos alatt,Alattyan).Liptak named them ones with Hephtalite origin because he considered the Indo-Iranian Mediterranean type a significant ethnical component of the Hephtalites. This type could be traced back as far as Central Asia (Liptak1983)". Volume 44(1-4):87-94, 2000 Acta Biologica Szegediensis http://www.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS. Erzsébet Fóthi. Anthropological conclusions of the study of Roman and Migration periods Acta Biol Szeged 2000, 44:87-94 Abstract PDF. SYMPOSIUM Department of Anthropology, Hungarian Natural History Museum, Budapest,Hungary Anthropological conclusions of the study of Roman and Migration periods. Erzsebet Fothi.--Awarenstuermer 15:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anthropology of Pseudo-Avars 

message: "Armenoid" type in the middle of Eurasian Avars is Hurrian type. Armenoids and Kurds are typical Hurrians (for anthropology). Armenoid racial type= Hurrian type. Cromagnon (Proto-Nordic) race: German, Skandinavian, Tokhars, Old-Caucasion type of Balkano-Caucasians, Old-Dinlings and others). Brachikephales: Balkano-Caucasians (or Celtic or Pamirian-Alpic), Dolichokephales: Medditeran (Iranians,Pushtuns and others). Pamirians are brachicephal Europoids (Mountain Tadjiks)--Awarenstuermer 16:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  about Hurrian type 

message: Please stop moving the page and rep[lacing references without discussion. `'mikka (t) 02:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pseudo-Avars 

message: I was surprised to return to this page and find it so reduced. The reason is clear: a vicious series of edit wars worthy of the Avars and Byzantines themselves (and with similar results). While burning each other's academic villages, you seem to have destroyed a lot else besides. For instance, surely the king list didn't need to go?
Please remember that Wikipedia is about spreading knowledge, not furthering our own ideological struggles. Ask yourself, what will the reader in Brisbane or Buenos Aires want from this page?
So I have tried to restore everything that is non-contentious, and have indicated some of the theories that you guys have been arguing about while stressing that there are competing theories and that much of it is hotly disputed. Because of the lack of historical records, some speculation is necessary and adds interest, as long as the reader is told what is fact and what is unproven. 
While I know more about the Avars than anyone I know, I don't have the same expertise the editors who have been struggling for control of this page. What I do have is an objective outlook and professional editing skills. 
I have tried to improve this page based on your previous contributions. I have tried to be honest and objective, but if you think I've got anything wrong, can we discuss it in the Talk page first? The last thing this page needs is another edit war. Patrick Neylan 12:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The king list is practically a hoax. No unsourced speculation is permited by WP:ATTR, no matter how much interest it adds.--91.148.159.4 14:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: Moved the folliwng list of rulers to talk page. First, Pohl (see the link in the article), an expert on the subject, says we only know one name, Baian. Second, this amateur page says Tudun and Zodan are titles, that the names of Baian's successors are unknown, and generally shows that everything about that is very uncertain. Third, Bulgar ruler Kubrat was obviously not a ruler of the Avars at all, nor was his son Batbayan! Forth, the etymology of baltavar as "half-Avar" is ridiculous, and fifth, "baltavar" itself (or rather, something remotely similar, with only consonants and, I think, without the initial "b") is only attested in some form in Ibn Fadlan's 10th century account about Volga Bulgaria - the rest is in Djagfar tarikhy, a source that no respectable historian ever used. Sixth, the source for all that stuff are probably sites like this pan-Turkic site which also uses Djagfar tarikhy. Note, finally, that the whole list was added by an anon user who no longer edits. --91.148.159.4 14:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ruler list 

message: * Surakat, at the time of Abu Muslima....................729/30 
* Andunik-Nutsal, at the time of Abu Muslima 
* Dugry-Nutsal 
* Largely to Georgia.............................c. 1000-1050's 
* To the Alans....................................1050's-1120 
* To Shirvan.....................................c. 1120-1225 
* To the Mongols....................................1225-1278 
* Surakat (Amir Khunzkh)....................c. 1230-1256 
* Bayar.....................................c. 1256-c. 1270 
* Masum Beg.................................c. 1270-c. 1275 
* Sultan....................................c. 1275-c. 1295 
* To the Persian Ilkhanate..........................1278-1340 
* Malik Sarashan....................................c. 1300 
* To Jalayrid Baghdad...............................1340-1382 
* To the Timurid Empire.............................1382-1405 
* To the Horde of the Black Sheep...................1405-1468 
* Gandunik..................................c. 1460-c. 1485 
* To the Horde of the White Sheep...................1468-1502 
* Bulak.....................................c. 1485-c. 1510 
* To Persia.........................................1502-1516 
* To the Ottoman Empire.............................1516-1620 
* Nutsal-Khan I.............................c. 1540-c. 1568 
* To Persia.........................................1620-late 1700's 
* Umma Khan I...............................c. 1620-c. 1634 
* Moldar Mirza..................................fl. 1650 
* Muhammad Khan I...........................c. 1650-c. 1668 
* Dugru.....................................c. 1670-c. 1699 
* Muhammad Khan II..............................fl. 1713 
* Umma Khan II (Bulach the Old).............c. 1720-c. 1730 
* Ankalav...................................c. 1730-c. 1735 
* Umma Khan II (Bulach the Old, restored)..fl. 1735-1740 
* Nutsal-Khan II............................c. 1740-c. 1744 
* ? 
* Muhammad-Nutsal IV........................1753 > -1765 with... 
* Muhammad Mirza............................1753 > - ? 
* Nutsal-Beg...................................1765-1774 
* Umma Khan III.....................................1774-1801 
* Gebek Janku ibn Muhammad..........................1801-1802 (succeeded by his father) 
* Muhammad ibn Umma......................................1802 
* To Russia indirectly..............................1802-1843 
* MEHTULI dynasty 
* Sultan Ahmed Khan Mehtulinski................1802-1823 
* Bahu (or Huh) Bike (fem.)..................c. 1823-1834 with... 
* Surhai Khan..................................1823-1827 and then... 
* Aslan Khan of Ghazi-Ghumuq...................1827-1828 and then... 
* Abu Sultan...................................1828-1834 
* Hadji Murat..................................1834-1836 with... 
* Mohammed Mirza Khan (also in Ghazi-Ghumuq)...1834-1837 
* To Imamate of Shamil (Dagestan)...................1837-1859 
* To Russia once again..............................1859-1864 
* Ibrahim Khan.................................1859-1863
The funny thing is that it has got nothing to do with Avars as shown by the fate that extends beyond their existence. I did not delete it since it may be needed by another article. -- Zz 11:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think these are the Caucasian Avars.--91.148.159.4 11:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Another list 

message: Fz, why you reverting incorrect map to this article? It is not correct that only Avars lived in this area and not Slavs. See for example this about Slavic archaeological findings in Vojvodina and Hungary: http://curug.rastko.net/9-vek/index_en.html Quote: "Pottery made on a slow wheel, decorated in the same manner as the pots from Čurug, was found in the vicinity of Zemun, in a settlement from the second half of the 9th century and the beginning of the 10th century, as well as in the vicinity of Vršac and in settlements and graves in Hungary, where it was dated to the 9th and 10th century. In the Bačka region similar ceramics on a slow wheel was found in Botra near Bečej, from the 8th-9th century, and in the “Veliki Put” site near Čantavir, from the 9th century, but kneaded pottery is present in a far larger percentage in these sites. Considering the said analogies, as well as the small percentage of kneaded pots, the houses from Čurug might be dated to the end of the 9th and beginning of the 10th century. The characteristics of the pottery from this structure undoubtedly point towards a Slavic population from the time of Hungarian conquests". Also see this: http://www.bac.co.yu/english/Istorija/Sadrzaj.htm Quote: "He was preaching and converting to Christianity the Slavs in Backa and Bac,a settlement that was founded in the year 873 both by the Barbarians and the Slavs.", etc, etc. Thus, it is clear that Slavs lived in these "Avar-inhabited regions" as well (not only in the areas where you placed them on this map), thus the presence of Slavs have to be reflected somehow and I think that best way to do this is to writte "Avar and Slavic population" instead just "Avar population". If you have better idea how we can reflect presence of Slavs, please say what better idea that might be. PANONIAN 16:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Look, I don't think there was no Slavic population in the region at all - those who accepted the protection of the Avars, - but the Avars were still the dominant ethnic group in the 7th century. Don't forget the maps shows the year 680 from where the Second Avar Empire is dated (when a new ethnic group settled amongst the Avars the so called 'griffin and tendril' culture). Plus the Slavs were unable to cross the Carpathians while the region was under the rule of Gepides. Gepidia was destroyed by the Avars and I don't see why and when the whole Avar Empire was invaded by Slavic peoples en masse and in several decades, they became a majority while the Avars did nothing but twirled their fingers ...--fz22 19:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is very disputed whether Slavs or Avars were dominant group in Avar state. Some history books mention this state under name Avaro-Slavic state. The point is that you showed on your map that Slavs lived only outside of areas where Avars lived implying that there were no Slavs at all in the areas inhabited by Avars and that is simply wrong. There are two ways to make this map correct: 1. either to mention that Slavs also lived in the area inhabited by Avars, or 2. to delete any mention of Slavs from this map showing only area inhabited by Avars with no any implication whether Slavs lived inside or outside this area. You choose which of these two solutions is better. PANONIAN 21:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Slavic populations lived only near the Avar-Slavic ethnic border. They started to settle in significant numbers after the fall of the Avars. No evidence on Avar-Slav cohabitation ...  See this: http://www.magtudin.org/Puspoki%202.htm (unfortunately only in Hungarian)--fz22 10:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Author wrote:The 6th Century historian Menander Protector noted that the language of the Avars was the same as that of the Huns, appearing as an Oghuric Turkic branch like modern Chuvash or Turkic Bulgarian and Khazar. We do not have any proofs of that language  of Huns was Turkic or Chuvash. From 29 Asian-Hunnic words reached us in the Chinese transcription are not present any Turkic. All of them-Yenisseyan (Kets).On this theme is written works of Dulson.A lot of researchers also considers, that the most part of early avars made protomongols and east iranians (Hephthalites, Khionites). And you only about turkis write. Where proofs? Turkis were population only subdued by avars - the Protobulgars. Avars did not love them and concerned to them badly.You in general can result even one Hunnic or the Avarian document written on Turkic? No.--87.117.157.9 (talk) 18:51, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  I am sure they were Persian... pffffffff Persians claim everyone in the history was Persian. Have a break.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.207.248 (talk) 05:10, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

text: I wrote most of the current version. I'm not Turkish, so have no bias. If you read the article, it mentions everything that you said- the Iranic and mongol theory. But in the end - no one really knows their exact origins. Like all steppe peoples, they were multiethnic and hetergeneous. Hxseek (talk) 05:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Avars are said by Chinese sources to be descended from the Xianbei (Rouran), and would thus speak a Mongolic language, not Turkic. It should not be said that it is "now classified as Ogghur", which itself is a stupid idea-- a group made up of all the extinct "Turkic" languages, that no one even knows anything about. Avars were not Turks. I remember reading about 20 or so known words still existing in Hungarian, so I'll try to dig those up later. --218.20.119.88 (talk) 20:04, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Language of Avars 

message: Isn't it fairly well known that the Avars (in Europe at least) used material culture items with Jewish symbols on them? This seems to be a precedent for the later Khazar state, the Jewish identity of which is also sometimes overlooked.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.150.169 (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: What exactly is your point ? There was long-distance trade amongst all the steppe nomads Hxseek (talk) 06:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Jewish Identity 

message: We'll need to find some actual sources for the claim that some 'pure' presence of Avars managed to survive up to the 12th century (four hundred years after the Avar polity collapsed), at which time they were reolcated to Transylvania. Hxseek (talk) 00:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Szeleky 

message: To the anonymous editors 77... and 88.. , firstly, get a user I.D if you want to edit. Secondly, the Avars were an ethnically mixed groups, as all such confederacies were. Yes, generalist the text books you have used a references claim that they're Turkic, but this is a simplification used by books which would have briefly mentioned the Avars in passing, and not actually delved into the complex ethnogenesis process which occurred. Expert on medieval ethnogenesis and Avars, such as Rona-Tas and Pohl, explicitly state they were mixed, and any editor who actually knows anything understands this.
They show evidence of a lot of Turkic cultural influencs, such as their leadership organization, and Turkic runes have been found. But other steppe traditions were not Turkic, and they acquired a local tradition as well. Ethnically, they were a mix even before they arrived to Europe , not to mentio after their extensive mixing in the Black Sea steppe area and then Pannonia with Europoid peoples (Germanics and SLavs) who were the predominant population. 
But then you'd know this if you actually read the article and stopped POV-pushing. Hxseek (talk) 02:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Identity 

message: Your "uygur's" from Volga/Ural region were not modern Turkic people, bat Finno-ugrian "UGOR/OGOR" as magyar-ugrian "kotzagir", zabender" and "tarniakh" among Avars/Uarkhonites. By the way, in Caucasian-Avarian language ägaraw is the "relative, making related, relatives" (in Afghan Pashto wagәri "People", in other languages GHUR is "konfederation", for example Dzhamuha-Ghurkhan among Mongols). Also in Afghanistan there is province Ghur, whence have intruded in India GHURDZHARS in structure of Hephthalites. In Caucasian-Avarian language avarag "the prophet, the messenger" and Avaristan "land of Avars", avaral "the Avars (Caucasian Avars)"  means. See: Avarsko-Russkij slovar'//by red.M. Saidov. Moskva. 1967, s. 25.  And still... In the Byzantian sources are mentioned people Kermikhions, living among Avars. In Iranian languages kerm is "worm", and in language of Avesta (also in the Armenian language) karmir is "red". Red paint in olden time did of a special kind of worms, therefore here  is no contradiction,for example, in Russian cherv' (= cservy in transcription of Magyar language) - the worm, but chervonnyj (chervonniy) means "brightly red". In Caucasian-avarian language, khumur /plural. khurmal/ (this dialect word) is the "wolf" and a worm living in a body of the person (khomor, plural. khormal) means (see for "wolf" Avarsko-Russkij slovar'//by red.M. Saidov. Moscow. 1967, p.530; and for Khomor "a worm living in a body of the person", see: P.A. Saidova. Dialektologicheskij slovar' avarskogo jazyka. Moskva. "Nauka"., 2008, pp. 363, 382). And now compare: Mittel-Mongolian qoroqai, Mongolian written qor-qai, Baoan GorGei, Dagur χorugw, Mongor xorGui "a worm, an insect". In Kalmyk the basis xor "maggot of Horsefly". In Turkic languages it are related: Old-Turkic qurt, Turkmen Gurt, Turkish kurt, Khakass xurt, Chuvash xort "worm". (See Starostin S.A. Altajskaja problema i proishozhdenije japonskogo jazyka. Moskva. "Nauka", 1991, pp 54,186) And in Turkish, Turkmen and the some othwer Turkic languages there is an additional value "wolf". In Persian kerm "worm" (< indoeurupean *kur-mi-), Afghan (pashto) khamar "mythological snakes, a dragon". Also in Finn language is available (kurmu), but this probably Indo-Iranian loan. The ROURAN...De Groot the name of this people writes as Dsu-dsu (Dsut-dsut, Dsurdsut). Marquart specifies, that in «Sun-shu» same people is called "Da-Dan"or a "Dandan". In G. E. Grumm-Grzhimajlo's opinion, Rouran (Zhouzhan) it at all the name of the state, and a nickname, «on accord given by emperor Toba-Dao who wished to tell her, that as neighbours Ruan-Ruan are so unpleasant and restless, as insects Ruan-Ruan». (see: Grumm-Grzhimajlo G. Е. Zapadnaja Mongolija i Urjankhajskij kraj. Т.II. Leningrad, 1926, p. 27). The etnic Name "KHOR" were the general name of Proto-Mongols - Dung-hu (see: Gumilev L. N. «Hunnu». Sankt-Peterburg. "Tajm–aut kompas", 1993, p. 31). Also the mythological ancestor Khorin Buryats - is "KHORIDOY". Among Mongols were known also KHORCHIN (khor and probably mongolian chinuo/chino/chon "wolf" and CHAKHAR (from dzha "red" and khor). And at last the last... At Proto-Mongols Wuhuan (O-huan) a place  dwellings of spirits of ancestors the RED MOUNTAIN (!) was considered. (see: Mify Narodov Mira. Т.I Мoskva. Sovetskaja enciklopedija. 1991,p.170) I shall remind, that the Afghani city of Kunduz is known as Wuhuan, and later as War-waliz, that means "City of Avars". The state symbol of the Caucasian Avars (Caucasian Avar Khanate) according to Georgian geographer Vakhushti Bagrationi "the wolf with a banner on a background of mountains" (17-18 centuries). (see: Vakhushti. Istorija Gruzii, pp. 553,641,653// Institut rukopisej imeni K. Kelidze. Akademija Nauk Gruzinskoj SSR. f. N., № 2079). Actually AVAR in Caucasian Avaristan it is KHUNZAKH which has no translation except for as "at Huns".  Avarian from Daghestan--81.24.80.233 (talk) 13:41, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It is impossible to tell. As long as we present all major interpretations (and that's all they are), then its OK. Hxseek (talk) 06:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  KERMIKHIONS 

message: The average reader is going to be completely confused between the relationships (if any, and how demonstrated) between the Caucasian Avars and European Avars (a.k.a. Pseudo-Avars a.k.a Eurasian Avars). Both of these articles needs to be very clear on this blindingly obvious question. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont]  ‹(-¿-)› 05:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no relationship. Completely different people. Unfortunating naming Hxseek (talk) 06:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inter-article cleanup desperately needed 

message: The caption of the illustration at the upper right corner of the article is "Avar warrior with captive" But the same illustration also appears in the article of Khazars with the caption "Khazar warrior with captive". Which is correct ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illustration 

message: I've brought the article back here because I had noticed that in November an anon had ravaged the article to move it, using copy-and-paste to change the article name, thus losing all the article's history. If somebody doesn't like the current name held by the article, then I invite him to search with the other editors a consensual position to be searched through WP:RM; then an uninvolved admin will make the necessary move if there is agreement.--Aldux (talk) 00:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  On Eurasian, European, Ancient or Whatever Avars 

message: Avars - the white Khuns. They were the masters of old Asia , they were caucasoids - look the "taklamakan mummies". Mongols and Chinese people were rebel to those Caucasoids. Rebellion was be succesful and Caucasoids migrated to the west. Some of caucasoid Khuns and his slaves migrated to the North and the Asian Khuns ( half mongoloid - half caucasoid ) people were be. in the west the migrated Avars ( or Khuns or White Khuns ) had a state "hepthalites". Some of Caucasoids went in to iran - they were the Parthian. Some of Avars fought against Turkic and mongolic barbarian tribes , and migrated from Asia to the Volga - North Caucasus , they mixed with native Caucasian Avars , and were ride their horses on east europe. Magyars' fathers are unknown ! may be the north east germans are the sons of Avars , Poland and Northern Russias' old nordics. We know , a very elit archers named "mergen" - they were mongolian - warriors are in the army of Avars. Avars are Caucasoids. if they were mongoloids - todays' frankia and germania people must be mongolian too :) but they are still caucasian (most of them. even though their women now choose niggar boys for love). there is no honostly archaeological search in Caucasus - about Avars. Russia do not let this. This searches will be the key. WARKHONNS ( white khuns - hephtalites ) - AVAR KHUNZ ( still using in Caucasus to define Avars people). You are my son Europe - you are Caucasian ! Do not make your father any mongoloid turkics !  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 888.226.117.75 (talk) 11:45, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Slaves talking about lords 

message: Takabeg, please, substantiate your removal of category tags from the article. Removing categories without discussion is not acceptable when the action is disputed. Atabəy (talk) 06:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Categories 

message: The Avars who came to India as a tribe of the Sakas > are known today as Abhiras/Ahirs.
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=4yOUTcUPibSsB7Pm9P8L&ct=result&id=1EyBAAAAMAAJ&dq=abhira+afghanistan&q=abhiras
Racial basis of Indian culture: including Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal-page-269
http://books.google.com/books?ei=nSI9TdSII8WAlAft4LzOBg&ct=result&id=xOA0AQAAIAAJ&dq=avar+tribe+and++abhira&q=avar+ 
http://books.google.com/books?ei=nSI9TdSII8WAlAft4LzOBg&ct=result&id=1EyBAAAAMAAJ&dq=avar+tribe+and++abhira&q=avar+
Racial basis of Indian culture: including Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal-page-50
http://books.google.com/books?ei=nSI9TdSII8WAlAft4LzOBg&ct=result&id=w-g9AAAAIAAJ&dq=avar+tribe+and++abhira&q=+abhira
http://books.google.com/books?ei=nSI9TdSII8WAlAft4LzOBg&ct=result&id=SqQCAAAAMAAJ&dq=avar+tribe+and++abhira&q=avar</ref>The judicial customs of Nepal, Volume 1-page-330
http://books.google.com/books?id=UmALAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA325&dq=avar+tribe+and++abhira&hl=en&ei=nSI9TdSII8WAlAft4LzOBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=Sg1P86VWYOsC&pg=PA377&dq=avar+tribe+and++abhira&hl=en&ei=dic9Tb32FsSblgesr6ydBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=avar&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?ei=Iig9TZ70KIGBlAeBioXrBQ&ct=result&id=MhZ2AAAAIAAJ&dq=avar+tribe+and++abhira&q=avar
:The section about (alleged) Avars in India doesn;t belong in this article. Even if there was some distant relation between the Pannonian Avars and those in India, it has little relevance to this article. It;s best placed in an article about the Sakas, or Indian history Slovenski Volk (talk) 13:23, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Avars also known as Abhiras or Ahirs in India 

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thread_title:  File:Carpathianbasin late avar.png Nominated for Deletion 

message: On Talk:Costoboci there have been many digressing endless discussions between me, User:Slovenski Volk and User:EraNavigator (EN is the "IP author" - usually from the 31.* and 178.* ranges). However at least the two sections below are within the scope of this article, as they are about Avars (but also about Huns and Slavs) - about their physical appearance, about the langauges they spoke, also about the Avar society with an emphasis on the relations between the nomadic newcomers and the local population. I believe and hope they can be used to improve this article, so here they are. Daizus (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moving discussions