Talk:Arabs/Archive 2

message: The image  contains a photo of Boutros Boutros Ghali, who is a Copt, not an Arab. Please correct this. Thanks! --Lanternix 19:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: First, User:Serenesoulnyc needs to be aware of 3RR and the policy on the use of different accounts and IP addresses. It's just too convenient that several new accounts and IPs suddenly appeared just to add the picture and make the same edits. Also, Copts are indeed likely not to consider themselves Arabs, so the insistence on including one even though there is no shortage of other images of prominent Arabs can be interpreted as an attempt merely to make a point. Regardless of the fact that Ghali may or may not consider himself Arab, he certainly does not not represent the Arabs to be included in a general article about them unless you can provide a source where he identifies himself in these terms (e.g. the way that Nasser certainly did). As someone else mentioned, there is a disclaimer about Egyptians in the article for this reason, so it's best to include images that would not generate disputes like these. Besides, the image is likely to be deleted anyway because it does not provide adequate information regarding the copyright status of each individual image. — Zerida 23:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photo of Arabs 

message: The article needs to be overhauled by someone at least familiar with the topic.  It contains much repeating information and even literally repeating text.  The "Origin" section repeats itself a lot, part of the "Defining who is Arab" and most of "Mentions in history" sections are literally repeated in the "History" section, and information from "Origin" is repeated in "History".  Also, the section topics are confusing, as origin and mentions in history are topics of history, and "Arab nationalism" reads like part of the "History" section.
I suggest that the "Origin" and "Mentions in history" be incorporated into "History".  The text from "Origin" should be overhauled.  "History" should be divided into subsections.  And perhaps "Arab nationalism" should be incorporated as a subsection of "History".  The information from "Defining who is Arab" should be summarized to minimize repetition.  Unfortunately, this would result in an article of three sections, including a very long History section.  But I think this is more logical than the current section division. -Pgan002 00:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reorganize the article 

message: In response to the section below, if there were no Arab Jewish tribes, there are certainly Arab Jews. Despite the fact that many Jews in the Middle East left (or were encouraged to leave) during the 1950s and 60s to non-Arabic speaking countries, many still keep their identity as both Arabs and Jews. Continued pressure within the Jewish community to act more like the Eastern European-descendant Jews only means that it is all the more important to recognize Jewish people of Arab descent (and whose first language was often Arabic, then Hebrew) on this page. It would make sense to do so, however, with the caveat that some Arabic-speaking Jews identify both as Jews and as Arabs, while some do not--just as it's done for Christians from the Arab world on this page.
: Not exactly. Jews from the Arab countries have never been Arabs - meaning "ethnic Arabs". They were Jews living in Arab countries. They spoke Arab as German Jews spoke German, but in fact they mostly spoke some Hebrew-Arab or Ladino or French - depending on the country. They do not consider themselves as Arabs. Benjil 19:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No because the most important thing in being Arab is to identify yourself as such. Jews in Arab speaking countries never did and were not considered as Arabs by the Arabs. And Arab was not really the mother tongue of Jews in these countries, they had there own sub-languages like Yiddish for Ashkenazi Jews. Almost no Jews identify as Arabs. And anyway, almost no Jews in 2007 speak Arabic as a mother tongue. Benjil 21:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

text: So you are confusing Arab and Arab-speaker. We are speaking here about the Arab national identity. There are many definitions of the Arab identity. The one taking language as its main criteria also states the necessity of self-identification. Furthermore, Arab, most of the time, was not the first language of these Jews. In fact it was mostly a modern phenomenon - like the Arab identity itself. And the link you give is from a pro-Hezbollah site. Benjil 05:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok so we think here almost the same. Benjil 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Before that, "Being an Arab" was being a Bedouin. Very few defined themselves as Arabs before the 20th century but according to religion and tribe. And I never denied that any mizrahi Jew spoke Arabic as first language. Only said it was more common only in the modern times. Benjil 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: Never heard of "Hispanic Jews". I know Argentinean Jews, Mexican Jews, etc... But if you want. I would call them South American Jews or Spanish speaking Jews. Benjil 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

text: For the exact reason that neither the Arabs and themselves do define them as such. You can talk of Moroccan Jews, Tunisian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Arab-speaking Jews. But they are not Arabs. Benjil
As for that "pro-Hizbollah site", its affiliation is irrelevant, as the article was only re-published on that website. And even if it wasn't, I don't see how it would discredit the article, as it is clear who is interviewing and who is being interviewed. Funkynusayri 08:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

text: So what ? Obviously these are people with an agenda. In Israel you have a few hard-left wing Sefaradim who speak like that - mostly from an anti-Zionist hardcore point of view. They represent nothing. You have also Abraham Serfaty, a Moroccan Jew who define himself as a Moroccan Arab and was 17 years in jail in Morocco. We are speaking here about a few individuals. Benjil 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arab Jews

message: If there were no Arab Jewish tribes, there are certainly Arab Jews. Despite the fact that many Jews in the Middle East left (or were encouraged to leave) during the 1950s and 60s to non-Arabic speaking countries, many still keep their identity as both Arabs and Jews. Continued pressure within the Jewish community to act more like the Eastern European-descendant Jews only means that it is all the more important to recognize Jewish people of Arab descent (and whose first language was often Arabic, then Hebrew) on this page. It would make sense to do so, however, with the caveat that some Arabic-speaking Jews identify both as Jews and as Arabs, while some do not--just as it's done for Christians from the Arab world on this page.
: Not exactly. Jews from the Arab countries have never been Arabs - meaning "ethnic Arabs". They were Jews living in Arab countries. They spoke Arab as German Jews spoke German, but in fact they mostly spoke some Hebrew-Arab or Ladino or French - depending on the country. They do not consider themselves as Arabs. Benjil 19:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Jewish Arab Tribes

message: Regarding the population of Arabs "Outside Arabic-speaking regions" : The State of Israel cannot be listed here since Arabic is one of the OFFICIAL languages of the State of Israel.  This means that in the Knesset one can officially (and legally) speak in Hebrew or Arabic. For further details see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Israel#Arabic. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.167.82.111 (talk • contribs).
:Israel is not an Arab country. It is a self-defined Jewish state. While Arabic is nominally an official language, you cannot get government services or forms in Arabic in most areas. I am strongly against removing Israel from the list. It has over 1.2 million Arabs living there and they are worthy of inclusion in this template. Tiamut 12:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've just added a note for clarification. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 12:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Error in including Israel in List 

message: This point is bothering and the article is unstable because of it. Could you please discuss that point here? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 12:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A guy called Lanternix keeps removing "Maronite" from Arab religions, though some Maronites do consider themselves Arabs. Furthermore, Maronites are linguistically Arabs without exception, so if Lanternix doesn't come up with a good counterargument, it stays. Funkynusayri 21:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Arab - not Arab? edit warring

message: Someone changed the 1910 photo to a tiny montage of four images with no caption.  I have rolled it back, could we discuss this first?  Joie de Vivre 15:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Photo at top right

message: The "Pre-Islamic Himyarite south & Nabatean north Arabic" sub-section talks about Semites in general which is contradictory to the the title of the sub-section itself. I believe the whole section should be rewritten. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 12:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Pre-Islamic Himyarite south & Nabatean north Arabic

message: Arab is a race, although for some very strange reason it has become a "language" which is absurd, and which is what has led to the muddle and murky use of definition such as ethnic Arab etc. This new "idea" was probably conceived by non-arabs and anti-Arabs. The fact is, in much of the "Arab world" excluding "Linguistically Arab countries such as Sudan, who are not Arab racially", there is a very clear majority of Arabs dispersed among a minority of non-Arabs. In most cases, they consider themselves Arab. In Lebanon, "phoenician" has only recently become a serious consideration, mostly by Arabs with an inferiority complex, who do not wish to be identified as Arabs. In the past, it was dismissed even by many who today claim to be phoenician. Nonetheless, most Lebanese people known themselves to be Arab and dismiss any talk of phoenician origins, as it is a well known fact that Phoenicians are extinct. The idea that just about anyone who adopts the Arab language is an Arab is nonsensicial. Would it make an Arab-speaking German an Arab? LOL ah, the stupidity of the masses. And does this make me, French, British, Swedish and Arab? I speak all four language. Irrer 22:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Arab is not a race as their is no such things as "races". And the idea of Arab language to define arabity comes from Arab intellectuals who borrowed the idea from Eastern Europe - where language has been used to define new nationalities. Arabs are an old people but it had no modern definition fitting to the modern world. In fact, there was no national Arab identity at all, as the concept itself is European. Christians Arab-speakers saw in the National idea a way to stop being second zone citizens - when religion was the main criteria, there were just a minority inside the Muslim world, but if the identity shifted to nationhood, there were to become Arabs equals among other Arabs. Benjil 23:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok but what do you do about the millions of Europeans youth of Arab origins who were born in Europe and whose first language is not Arab (usually French or Spanish etc...) ? They see themselves as Arabs, have family in Arab countries, and are identified as Arabs by other people. Benjil 16:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: "Most European Arabs" - I am far from sure, in particular for the young ones. I know very well the situation in France and most of the ones who were born in France almost do not speak Arabic at all. Benjil 16:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Well I believe that the self-identification is also a main criteria. If you don't identify as an Arab you certainly are not Arab. You need to remember that the definition of who is an Arab comes from the Eastern European debate over "Nationality" during the 19th century, and has been imported to the Middle-East mostly by Christian Arabs who got a European education. They invented the modern Arab identity as a national one by using the same criterias used in Europe - language and territory (and mostly language in Eastern Europe). But the reality is far more complex than these intellectual constructions. So the definition of who is an Arab is complex, changing, as is the Arab world itself. Benjil 16:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: There is no "worldwide consensus" on these issues. In fact you have two possibilities: or the identity is defined by Law (citizenship, religion) or it is not, and here the consensus, at least in the western world, is that people define themselves as they want. And that's it. I don't know about Maronites, although I knew one who really did not see himself as an Arab, but Jews from Arab countries do definitely not define themselves as Arabs (but a very tiny minority) so they are not. That's the only valid criteria. Anyway, if you want to see them as Arabs, that's mostly your problem, not theirs. And you will see that nobody counts the Sefaradi and Oriental Jews among the Arabs in Israel. Benjil 17:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

text: Heh, it isn't our job here to come up with a new global definition of Arab, all we can do is reflect the different definitions that are in use. Otherwise it's "POV". Funkynusayri 19:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who is an Arab? 

message: Rather than just reverting them because you think information deleted based on the edit summary number. I simplified the text but deleted no sourced information. The edits resolved many contradictions inherent to the text as it was, having been edited by multiple editors with multiple POVs and sources. Please take it point by point instead of mass reverting. Tiamat 01:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please, see my edit summary to you. You appear to lack some understanding with regard to Egypt, as some of your edits introduced further contradictions. — Zerida 01:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I read your edit summary. You accused me of writing that Copts represent 60-80% of the Egyptian population. I did not. That info was there. The correction of 10-20% was made by Egegy and I just redid it when I reverted his deletion of my edits. As for the rest of your objections ... would you care to be more specific. Finally, I know a lot about Egypt. Do you? Tiamat 01:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, now I see that the erroneous percentage was not re-introduced, sorry. The last question sounds a bit sarcastic and is not necessary. Could you explain the specific objections with regard to this part of the article? I was asking about the Arab-Net link and quote that Egyegy restored after you deleted it. — Zerida 01:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Zerida. I see now that I accidently deleted the quote from Arab.net. (I overwrote it. Sorry about that. It's now been restored). I'm not sure what part of the article you would like me to explain other than that, since the majority of my edits were made for flow or logical consistency in line with the sources provided. Is there something in particular that disturbs you? Tiamat 01:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not for my part, Tiamat, but I think it makes sense to keep the info about Copts and Maronites under Identity rather than in the lead, since it is addressing that question. Also, the statement "North Africans who still use the Berber language identify only as Berber, and many Egyptians, whether Muslim or Coptic, identify only as Egyptians" should be left intact, because as you may know it's a topic that gets debated in Egypt across the board. Thanks. — Zerida 02:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no objections to those two suggestions. Unfortunately, Egegy has wholesale reverted all of my additions (for the third time), so that I cannot restore any of them now and incorporate your suggestions since I will technically be in violation of 3RR. I will come back later though, to readd my edits while keeping the sections you mentioned intact. Unless you would like to make those changes. Otherwise, I feel the bulk of the edits I made improved the flow and clarity and deleted needless repetitions ( of which there are more that could use paring down as well). Thanks for engaging in discussion. Tiamat 02:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: PS. I would further point out that while Egegy is accusing me of deleting info, he has deleted this sentence and footnote (not added by me) in his latest edit:
Multiple definitions of who is an Arab have been offered. Islamized, but non-Arabized peoples form part of the Muslim World, and not the traditionally secular Arab World.Tiamat 02:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

text: No problem. I deleted the duplicated sentence at least, until you feel like making general edits again. — Zerida 03:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Please read the edits

message: I have reorganized the article sections per the tags placed there, merging history and mentions in history into one section and incorporating material from parallel pre-islamic history into that new section History and Origins as well. Please re-add any material I may have mistakenly deleted, or any tags I removed that you feel still apply. Of course, the merge was not seamless and could use some work for flow and as always, references. Tiamat 14:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merged sections, deleted repetitions of identical material

message: According to Sunan al-Tirmidhi in Hadith
Prophet Muhammad said, "Shem father of Arabs,Ham father of habsh(People of Ethiopia), Japheth father of Roman" 
the Hadith in arabic
ومن ناحية الأنساب وإستنادا إلى الترمذي فإنه روى الإمام أحمد عن سمُرة أن النبي قال: "سام أبو العرب، وحام أبو الحبش، ويافث أبو الروم". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.11.191 (talk • contribs) 
:You are correct but Hadith is considered as a primary source. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources as per this part of the policy. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hadith 

message: most Semitic people today are arabs...... arabian tribes before islam and before Ibrahim was have Different languages like Sabaean Minaean Qatabanian Hadhramautic every language Different from another but they Consider Themselves arabs , today most the arabs are Qahtani Arab and Arabized: Which most of them are Semitic and others Ancient Egyptian Berber jews..  who Consider Themselves arabs today , For example Ibrahim was from iraq who Speaks Syriac language and..Ishmael son of Ibrahim father of Arabized He was Speaks arabic language Which are use today Between Arabs and from him lineage to many arab tribes like Banu Tamim and Taghlib and Quraysh and Banu Hanifa and prophet Muhammad who Consider Themselves arab...
*Hello, please sign your post. And please don't delete other people's entries to the talk page, Lanternix, that is extremely rude, whether it is gibberish or not is irrelevant. I believe he is referring to ancient populations who have been arabised, not present ones, if so, he is correct, not entirely, as not all members of these groups were arabised of course. Funkynusayri 02:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What is this nonsense ? Abraham and the Mesopotamians were not Arabs. These are different people. And please this is a serious encyclopedia, so refrain from writing such stupidities like "The two main Arab cultural traits: Bravery & Generosity. Benjil 19:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

text: The idea of "Arab traits" is in itself racist. The Akkadians were not Arabs, just read the article Akkad, the fact that they *may* have lived (not even a fact) in the North of what is *today* called the Arabian Peninsula over 4500 years ago does not make them Arabs. And you obviously make a common confusion between the modern meaning of "Semite" - which refers to a group of languages and *not* to people - and the biblical one (and they do not overlap). Benjil 07:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  This is complete nonsense from the beginning to the end. Bravery and Generosity are part of most if all cultures, and the Arabs are not different from any other people. I respect the great arab culture as any other great culture in the world. I won't comment on your stupid political declarations about Zionism and comparing it to Nazism, but this in itself makes you unfit to any serious discussion. And for the Akkadians - no they were not Arabs, they did not speak Arabic, and did not identify as Arabs. Arabs are the people who speak Arabic. You have *no* right to annex to yourself all the other people of the region because they spoke a Semitic language. You are obviously some Arab nationalist bigot who prefers to live in its own fantasies, that's your problem. But Wikipedia is a serious scientific site, please refrain from posting nonsense. Benjil 10:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  "The Arab is brave and generous and the Israeli is wiser, cunning and smarter about spending their money". Is this a joke ? Will you stop trolling with that, I mean - really ? This really sounds like a racist anthem. For the rest, yes Arabs and Israelis have cultural differences, obviously Israel is a modern occidentalized State while the Arabs countries still belong to the underdeveloped world, and it is part of the reasons of the conflict, if not the only nor the main. Benjil 21:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

text:  So, yes you are a troll. The Akkadians are not Arabs according to anybody but you. If you have no scientific source about this fact, and you won't have, obviously, it can't be in wikipedia. All the rest of your rant just shows your true colors. By the way, two things: the article about "Arabs" is not for Arabs only as the articles about the Jews or any other people are not for Jews only or each people only ; and I never said the Arabs were bigots, I said *you* were. Thanks to God, you do not represent all the Arabs. With this, I will stop discussing with an ignorant racist like you. Benjil 21:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  who is arab today  

message: Would somebody look at Arabic culture and provide some sources and references? It's been tagged for over a year, and it really degrades the quality of the article to have that ugly (but necessary) box at the top. 24.4.253.249 01:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Arabic culture]] 

message: I checked the source of the image, and guess what: "Tourists dressed up in traditional clothing. Palestine/Jerusalem, 1910." http://fai.cyberia.net.lb/detail.aspx?img=0002kh00227
Who are these people? Can it be verified that they indeed are Arabs, and not for example Jewish or Turkish tourists dressed up? Funkynusayri 08:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How funny! I guess we need a new photo. I hate to say that because I'm sure it's going to lead to disagreements on what, based on previous experience. But it's true. I'll try to look around for alternatives. If anyone has any suggestions, please post them here. Tiamat 11:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image in ethnic group infobox 

message: Is there one? If not, I think one is needed. Funkynusayri 00:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arab Wiki project 

message: The new of Arabs must be changed. Taha Hussein was very opposed to Arabism and always claimed that he, as well as the rest of the Egyptians, are NOT Arabs. His photo must go. In addition, Samia Gamal and Omar el Mokhtar are Egyptians a/o North Africans, which means that calling them Arabs is very questionable (read the article itself). Please whoever created the imgae, take the time to modify it accordingly. Thank you. --Lanternix 15:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Good call, it's been fixed. Egyegy 20:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Would it be possible to add more pictures of "colored" Arabians? Arabians are essential a mix between Caucasoids, Mongloids and Negroids, so why is it there are mostly white-looking pictures on the article? I don't think it is at all fair. InternetHero 06:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  the new photo 

message: * North African nations have Arab populations but have sizeable non Arab minorities, the ruling Elite are Arab/Arabized, but that dont make the whole nation Arab.
* In Egypt only the Elite established Arab Nobility (Al-AShraaf) 5 Million claim Prophet Muhamad lineage, 17 Million claim Hashimi lineage and the rest of the 8 Million claim Kinana lineage. Despite how true these claims are, this number indicates the true number of self identified Arabs. The majority of the Egyptians are mixed and don't identify with the Arabs. --Skatewalk 04:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: like I said Banu 'amlh traveled to North Arabian peninsula then to North Egypt and Sinai Peninsula and the Ancient Egyptian was call them Hksos,Hoksos,Alhoksos,Hyksos (هكسوس)
At that time Fifteenth Dynasty ruled over Egypt, whose rulers are known in history as the Hyksos kings. They belonged to the Arab race, but had migrated from Palestine and Syria to Egypt in or about 2000 B. C. and taken possession of the country. The Arab historians and the commentators of the Quran have given them the name of Amaliq (the Amalekites), and this has been corroborated by the recent researches made by the Egyptologists. They were foreign invaders who had got the opportunity of establishing their kingdom because of the internal feuds in the country. 
We also learn from the history of Egypt that the "Hyksos kings" did not acknowledge the gods of Egypt and, therefore, had imported their own gods from Syria, with a view to spreading their own religion in Egypt. This is the reason why the Quran has not called the king who was the contemporary of Prophet Joseph by the title of "Pharaoh," because this title was associated with the religion of the original people of Egypt and the Hyksos did not believe in it, but the Bible erroneously calls him "Pharaoh". It appears that the editors of the Bible had the misunderstanding that all the kings of Egypt were "Pharaohs." 
Egyptians called these kings "shepherd kings," translated in Egyptian as "hega-khase". Greek authors later rendered this as "Hyksos," (UNSIGNED)
Ok the Hyksos are ancient Arabs who came from Syria/North Arabia whatever you wat toi call it. This happenned in the 15th century BC. At that time Qahatan was still in Yemen and not in Syria. The first Banu Amilah didn't leave Yemen that early. they left along with Kahlan. The reason we know about Banu Amilah, because they were mentioned in Sabaean scripts of tribes they Subdued this was back in 3rd century BC. Himyar will later destory Saba'a and the Qahatani migration to the north occurs mainly in the 3rd century AD. 
I know about the Hyksos and other Arab invasions of Egypt, but still Egypt was never Arabized culturally as the Arabian peninsual, Syria and Iraq or even Libya. Arabs ususually lived in nations were the Nomads outnumbered the Fallahen to mainatin a warlike nation. the Fallaheen were the smaller class that supported the Nomads. This worked well in North Africa, Spain and Sicily, but in Egypt the majority remained Fallaheen and the ARanbs were never able to assimilate the natives in joinning them instead the natives were just subdued. Name me one Egyptian native Pan Arabist or leader...etc. All Egypts Pan Arabist greats are Ethnic Arabs and thats mainly to the lack of loyality among the native Egyptians. the 1960s hysteria was all the works of Gamal Abdul Nasser personal Charisma and the EGyptians respect for the powerful. Once he was defeated they turned against him.--Skatewalk 19:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Arab population 250 million at highest 

message: * Noah and Adam are religious figures. I dont want to remove the part where it says "Some Arabs can trace thier lineage to Noah and even Adam! Even if you are a muslim. There is a saying about prophet Muhamad saying that he cant trace his origin further than Adnan and saying "geneoligists lie"
* Adnan is part of Qahtan there is atleast 2000years between them. The Qahtani Arabs don't have anything to do with (Abraham) was a Semite from Ur. (not Qahtani). Jews and muslims claiming him as their own. However, in ethnic terms he is descended of the Chaldees of UR or other Mesopotamian (SEMITES). We kniw that these groups came from the ARabian peninsula directly (as in with the Chaldees or via Akkad as with most the Mesopotamoian Semites. 
The Akkadians came from the Arabian Peninsula
the Akkadians among the ancient Arabs--Skatewalk 00:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Akkadians were NOT Arabs. — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:32 09 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
Elias,
The fist website on google says they came from teh Arabian peninsula. 1990s Historians link a branch of the South Semitic languages to Akkadian. Today the only people in th world to speak Akkadian live in Oman and Yemen. The modern Assyrians well you know whta they speak today!. Akkadians are the middle people between the Arabs and Assyrians.[]. Today the only Akkadian speaking people live in South Arabia! If I was an Assyrian who wants to relate to the Akkadians I will try to learn the language first! Especially that Mesopotamia didnt have any specific race due to the Akkadians and later Assyrian [policies of deporatations and mixing.
Elias its simple you respect other people, you will be respected. Same with history --Skatewalk 00:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Ancient Arabs]]

message: The article Ancient Arabs has just been created by a new user. That article is of a poor standard, even worse than this, and would be better merged into this. — Gareth Hughes 23:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: article content is unsalvageable. The title should be a redirect to Pre-Islamic Arabia. Any valid material can be inserted there. dab (𒁳) 10:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes you are right dear The12e32nd, just continue with this kind of racist slander and you will be excluded from Wikipedia. We don't need people like you here. Benjil 01:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Ancient Arabs]] 

message: These are two different articles. 
* Ancient Arabia dicusses the older History of Arabia (pre Hellenic Invasion 330BC)
* PreIslamic Arabia is related to the few centuries before Islam.
Ancient Arabia is simply part of the History of Arab nations. Are you an Arab? 
Assyrianists should focus on fixing their own confusing articles! instead of vandalizing Arab articles--Skatewalk 07:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Ancient Arabia vs Pre Islamic Arabia

message: Please change the Cenus numbers of Moroccan Arabs who have completly discluded the Berebrs?. Balu2000 16:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Flase numbers

message: If the Egyptians wanted to be known as a distant group. They have to mention the Arabs (ashraaf and Bedouins 30% of Egypt roughly 25 Million) and the Egyptians Copts 70% roughly 55 Million the majority. And Arabic language as the official language. Masri Dialect? if you want to call Masri a language then their are 300 Arabic languages. I can see why they are not allowing you reverts, because you are doing the same thing to the Arabs in Egypt! Its a known fact that 30% of Egypt are Ashraaf (or claim to be Ashraaf) thats Arabs or self identified Arabs. If you dont recognize them. How do you expect Arabs to recognize the whole Egyptian identity that you are working against by including the Arabs in it?. Egyptian Arabic is not a language, you should revive your old language instead of claiming Arabic as Masri!
You can't have it both ways, either go Egyptian all the way or not. 
* AbdulHalim Hafez is Arab, his songs are done in beautiful Arabic. You are hurting your own cause by including writers, singers who spoke and identified as Arabs. You have to fix The Egyptian article and include the Arab big minority and the Arabic language (so people dont get confused when they read the population 77Million and see it again in Arab! automatically they will think..oh Egyptian Arab) You cant convince the Ashraaf that they are Egyptians. They look down at Egypts past and they identify or (claim an Arab identity) which makes them Arab. 
*70 % of 80 is about 55Million thats the population of Egyptians other wise you are just agreeing with the Arab article that includes all Egyptians as Arabs!--Skatewalk 23:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Egyptian identity section just saw it!

message: The only evidence of an Egyptian identity comes from the voices of the Muslim Arabs (Ashraaf). If you dont admit the existance of an Arab minority that identifies as Arab, then you are denying any distinguishment between Arabs and Egyptians! 
*So using your common sense the Egyptian Arabs who claim to be the descendants of Kinana and the prophet are the same as you. Good job!
*I was trying to be fair, but I guess you were not around when GOD was giving away manners and wisdom? anyways, now you got one less voice with you. Great job gainning political support for your cause!--Skatewalk 03:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lanternix Why?

message: What you ALL must have in mind is that the estimates and any number given in the box is not there to imply that said people are Arabs or that they even identify as Arabs. It clearly states that! The numbers are there to illustrate the TOTAL number of people who have Arabic or a variety of Arabic as the modern primary language of the community to which they belong. That is, the spoken language of their community; the language in which their communications with others in their community are conducted in, and that their thoughts and cultural expressions are realized in. For example, Egyptian Arabic for all genealogically Egyptians, whether Muslims or Coptic Christian, not the Coptic language (the latest stage of the Egyptian language) which is now a dead language remaining only as the liturgical language of the Coptic Church, and which obviously wasn't preserved as even that with Egyptians who became Islamized since the liturgical language of Islam is Arabic. Together, these represent 98% of the population, to the exclusion of say Europeans in Egypt who speak Arabic natively but which is not the primary language of THEIR communities. And again, I must stress, those within the 98% do not represent or imply that they are either Arabs or identify as such.
Another example, Lebanese Arabic for all genealogically Lebanese, whether Muslims or Maronite Christian, is the language in which their communications with others in their community are conducted in, and that their thoughts and cultural expressions are realized in. It is not the Aramaic language which today for the Lebanese remains only as the liturgical language of the Maronite Church and which obviously wasn't preserved as even that with the Lebanese who became Islamized since the liturgical language of Islam is, again, Arabic. Nor is it the Phoenician language, which in the case of all Lebanese, Muslims and Christian, does not exist as even a liturgical language of any extant religion, much less one that may be practices by any Lebanese. Together, these represent 95% of the population, to the exclusion of say Armenians in Lebanon most of which today would speak Arabic natively (as it is the language of the state) but which is NOT the primary language of THEIR Lebanese Armenian community. Among themselves Lebanese Armenians speak Armenian, is the language in which their communications with others in their community are conducted in, and that their thoughts and cultural expressions are realized in. Together, these represent 95% of the population, to the exclusion of the mentioned Lebanese Armenians and any others who speak Arabic natively but which is not the primary language of THEIR communities. 
Are we starting to understand now? That's all the figures represent, and it says that in a painfully clear manner. Any person needing more clarification for a perceived neutrality issue, implying that the figures are still not sufficiently clarified enough to make it clear that they do not suggest the number of "Arabs" or even people identifying as "Arab" might need brail added. Al-Andalus 04:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically, it's like this: if you include that extremely pov version in the box, I am going to restore the older neutral version. It doesn't matter how many "footnotes" you write, it's pov. All of that footnoting is already explained in "Who is an Arab" and the links to other articles. I kept trying to compromise with you, but all you do is push the same pov, push the same pov. And I don't know how many times must we go over the "language does not equal ethnicity" explanation. It's completely irrelevant. the Irish people are not English just because almost all of them speak English, and just because the English themselves or the "British"-identifying ones have tried to decimate their identity. I'm bringing back the older version which was stable for months before this banned for good troll changed it. As for the Lebanese, they are not my problem and I don't care how they identify themselves, whether Maronites or Muslims or whatever (however, I think the "genealogical Lebanese" stuff is a joke-there was nothing called "Lebanese" nationality until very recently). It's time let it go. Egyegy 06:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Estimates and Egyptians supposedly represented as "Arabs"

message: * I actually doubt that all of them are really related to the prophet, but the point is that they are claiming an Arab identity (you can't force them to deny being Arab). 
* You can't claim an identity without having "the other". For all practical reasons you have to have the contrasting (invaders) other wise you are just going around the same circle. It is just my opinion, I really feel indifferent about this subject (except that it is bringging spamming to the article). 
* If you change the population in the Egyptian identity to (~25 Million Arabs) then we can fix it in both page instead of the 77 Million Arabs in Egypt and the Arab article. 
* Honestly do you consider all the 77 million Egyptians like yourself? there is a difference and you hae to convince your muslim compatriots (the secular ones)to side with you. Myself I oppose the delluted Arab identity and I rather identify with those who "want" to be Arabs in the good and the bad.--Skatewalk 06:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No link has been prseneted by you yet to support that number! How would I know you're not just making some numbers up???! --Lanternix 13:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Al-Ashraaf Self identified Arabs in Egypt

message: In the article as it now stands, Egypt is both at the top of the table (98% Arab) and the bottom (small percentage unspecified Arab)! AnonMoos 13:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Table contradiction

message: You who still putting on around 23 million people as "Arab", please stop this is unacceptable. Irqirq 20:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I completly agree. Only those from Syrian dessert area are Arabs, those from the southern region along with the rivers are Sumerians. — Xeljan 20:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes indeed, we are Sumerians, we where here long before Arabs arrived. Irqirq 20:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

text: I surmise that a majority of Iraqi citizens have been Arabized so It's quite difficult to tell who does indetify themselves as Arabs or not, but all Iraqis are agree that they are the descendants of ancient Mesopotamia civilizations like Sumer and Akkad. Iraq Arabs are considered as cultural Arabs. Inhabitants of Syrian dessert like Anbar for example may be genetically Arabs. It's obvious that the Arab identity came along with Islam. Marsh Arabs are the one who claims they are from Sumerians. Irqirq 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Iraq is not Arab