Talk:Shadow of the Colossus/Archive 4

message: I've added a load of websites to my sandbox. At some point I'll sift through it all and reference that description section, unless someone else does it first. Also, the Connections to Ico are proving hard to find a source for, so I'd appreciate assistence on that. -- Steel 11:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, another quick note. The Final Fantasy X people have used lines from the game to source their story info. We could easily do the same. The game script is easy enough to find. -- Steel 11:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Referencing 

message: After doing some revision with the "Story" section (mostly shortening it and making it more concise), the Characters section is starting to bug me more and more, as it contains a lot of redundant information.  It's hard to figure out what to do with it.  I've often considered just cutting it down into a very short "voice actors only" section on several occasions, but then we'd lose some information (particularly for Dormin) that really needs to be in the article.
Any way you look at it, the Characters section needs a complete overhaul.  That, plus we could really use a section discussing interesting points and examples of Dormin's mysterious dual nature.  Any ideas?  Comments?  (Constructive) criticism? Onlynameicanget 00:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The story section can be cut down dramatically. See the Final Fantasy X article - the story section there is only slightly longer than ours, but FFX has masses more story than this game. Indeed, this point was also raised in this game's (not very active) peer review. After the story section's shorter, the characters section should end up not repeating what's already been said... if you get me?I've been working on getting everything in the article sourced by reliable sources, and I have an alergy to far fetched fan theories, so try and avoid adding stuff which could be seen as original research.When I have the time, I'll go through the game script and the various reviews/previews for this game to get the story section referenced. -- Steel 17:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Oh, and a lot of games also have a Gameplay section. I guess I'll get round to that sometime too. -- Steel 17:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  The chars section is hugely overblown, especially in comparison to the FFX article, which is on a game with vastly more backstory than this one has.  Nuking it down to voice actors only and integrating Dormin into Story is probably best. Schicksal 22:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Characters Section 

message: I removed two images from the story section, as it was a bit cluttered. The one of Wander holding his sword can be added to the Gameplay section when it gets written. The map was nice, and could well be included, just not in the story section because I think one image is enough for that. -- Steel 20:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More about the cleanup 

message: Why is the information on the table that shows information about the Colossi constantly changing? I remember Gaius was known as the "Earth Knight" now it states it was known as the "Earth Truth" and also Malus was at first called "Grand Gigas" and is now "Grand Superior", why does someone keep changing the names? I know that this information came from an instruction booklet or something but why is the information constantly changing?
:Those are simply translations of the Latin names, and people are coming up with better translations. :) -JC 03:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. That table needs to be sourced or it has to go. As it is, it's basically original research. -- Steel 09:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm pretty sure the latin names have been sourced at one point. The rest is original research. The table itself isn't really appropriate, but I can't think of how else to have info on the colossi. Schicksal 17:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Me neither. -- Steel 19:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giant Names 

message: Do we really need one of these for every section that contains a spoiler? Seems to me like we only really need the one in Story.  Schicksal 18:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They're having a massive discussion about spoiler tags down at the CVG talk page. May as well wait and see what decision they come to. -- Steel 19:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spoiler Tags 

message: Something needs to be done there.
Either a frame that separates them somehow (an individual frame for each image), or resize them and make them go down in a row, or kill the extra images. Right now, the three of them mushed together look like, well, crap. I would do it myself but we need consensus on the final look, and I don't really know if the options I listed above are doable with wiki's code. Thoughts please Tani unit 20:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure, but the JP art is gorgeous and should remain on the page. Schicksal 21:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Perhaps following Ico article's example we should select just one cover art and drop the rest. I see no need to have all three of them considering how minimal the differences are. I would also like to see the japanese original art as the one selected. Tani unit 22:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Although I have the PAL copy and think the US cover is the worst of the three, I think the US cover is best suited for the infobox. I'll check with the WP:CVG and see if they have recommended guidelines on this. -- Steel 22:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm.  I kind of thought you guys would like that change a bit more.  I based the cover art pictures off of the way they are arranged on Final Fantasy X, a featured article that I look to as a really good example of how a video game article should be done.  This time around I structured the images in order of the game's release (US, Japan, Europe), but we can easily change that.  It seems that the most-liked cover is the Japanese cover, so I guess I'll make that one predominant. -- Onlynameicanget 00:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text:  Edit: Okay, I did that.  I also realised that having the Japanese cover as the biggest is probably best, because it's the only cover showing a possible scenario in the game.  Not only is Agro present with Colossus #1 in the US and PAL covers, both aforentioned covers show the entrance to the Forbidden Lands right next to #1.  Plus, I think the US and PAL covers compliment each other nicely together.  What do you guys think? -- Onlynameicanget 00:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I guess Final Fantasy article is a good example to go by. Although having a white background with centered graphics (in FF's case) certainly helps the covers not to look as crowded :), but I think in this  current form the infobox looks fine. Besides, having the cover image from the country of origin as the predominant one seems fitting. Me like. Tani unit 00:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I still think having the Japanese cover as the main image is unsuitable for the English Wikipedia. Indeed, the CVG suggested using the US cover. Having said that, I'm not going to make a huge fuss about this. I've fussed enough already over this article. -- Steel 09:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Disc Cover images 

message: Any news on a sequel/other iteration of the story? 68.225.240.87 03:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Uhh, no. 
And there are game sites for this sort of questions. Tani unit 03:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  News 

message: Along with the Gameplay section which has now been added, this is an area which we do need to cover. I'm currently gathering sources, though I could use suggestions on what could be included here. So far:
* Review scores + media opinion
* Sales figures (Both in comparision with ICO and other similar games)
* Awards
* Issues with the game (Many reviews comment on the annoying camera, for example)
If all goes well we could really beef out the article with this section. On an unrelated note, has anyone found a source for the Connections to Ico? I haven't managed to :( -- Steel 19:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good to me, I thinks sales figures for both games would be especially interesting.
As far as connections to Ico I haven't had any luck either. Will keep looking though. 
edit: i was trying for a while to find a source for the bit about Ico being the descendenat of Wanda, but the best I can do is this interview, where this confirmation is hardly as definitive: 
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70286-0.html?tw=rss.culture
Wired News: Is there any connection between the worlds of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus?
Fumito Ueda: There's no specific connection as far as a timeline. But, both games exist in the same world.
WN: But you've said the baby we see at the end of Colossus is the first 'baby born with horns' referred to in the backstory of Ico.
FU: Yes. I wanted to give some idea to the player, after you complete the game, that there was a connection to Ico. That's why I put in the baby with the horns. If somebody goes all the way through the game, I wanted them to be rewarded.
I'm starting to think that this definitive confirmation about the descendent may have been a rumor. Will keep looking though.
Tani unit 22:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: What's annoying is that everything in this section is highly speculative. Internet forums have had huge discussions about all of this. It's all open to interpretation making it hard to source, if what is in the article is even correct. -- Steel 23:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reception/Crticial response 

message: We should merge Roar of the Earth into the article.  The RotE article is very stubby, and we can easily fit the track listing back into Shadow's article without taking up a lot of space; just look at what these guys did, as an example.  Besides, the soundtrack really needs to have a significant place in the article anyway; it is arguably one of the game's strongest elements, and it just doesn't deserve the footnote-like mentioning it has currently.  What do you guys think?  -- Onlynameicanget 23:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Lots of people like the soundtrack so I guess it wouldn't be hard to find some GameSpot/IGN coverage on it. I was initially sceptical about listing the tracks, since it doesn't really add anything to the article, but since the Half Life article is featured, I guess it couldn't hurt to do what they did. -- Steel 23:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

text: We could, but the reason the soundtrack has it's own article in the first place is because people complained that the Colossus article was too big hence the separation. I have no problem with rejoining them though, seeing as Half-Life and Ico articles have done it. Tani unit 00:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This article won't be too big when we cut down the characters section and get rid of the Colossi table. -- Steel 00:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Roar of the Earth" merge 

message: Allright, the unsourced parts are as follows:
* At the end of Shadow of the Colossus, Wander/Dormin is shown to have become a baby with horns. Ueda has confirmed this to indicate that Wander/Dormin sires the line of horned boys, of which Ico is a descendant. 
- Nothing definitive on this, interviews I found confirm they exist in the same world, and Shadow is a prequel with now specific timeframe mentioned, but we can safely assume that they don't immediately follow one another. Ico being Wanda's descendant is confirmed, sort of.
*The shadowy figures that surround Wander after he defeats a colossus are of a similar design to certain ghosts that rise to challenge Ico; this may be a hint that these spirits have the same origins.
- They look similar enough, but I have seen no mention of that in the interviews, and haven't looked for any reviews stating that. Will have to look further.
*In Ico, immediately after releasing Yorda from her cage, the player comes to a long bridge with a statue at the nearest end. The statue is of a man with horns (one is broken off), who is wearing a tunic and has a hair-cut similar to Wander's. 
Some in-game features may simply be hints to Ico and not story related.''
- Seems self-evident enough, does it really need a reference?
*The way the Shadows stand around Wander in a circle after he defeats a Colossus is also similar to how the shadows encircled Yorda during Ico's ending.
- Far too POV and incidental. Doubt it should be even mentioned.
*Clothing, and designs on those clothes, are of a similar style. This includes Ico and Wander's tunics looking very similar and Yorda and Mono's dress looking very similar. 
Some fans have found a beach that looks very similar to the one shown in Ico's ending. 
- Reinforces Ueda's point about the design team unintentionally giving the games the same feel and look. Alos reinforces the connection as far as the setting goes. Confirmed by the same interview as the very first point.
What do you guys think?  Tani unit 00:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A lot of it, although it seems obvious, is original research at the moment. Also, I've heard that Wander doesn't father a line of boys, as in Ico each boy is sent to that castle place before he can reproduce. I am reluctant to say this, but the whole section may need to be significantly cut down. -- Steel 00:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Wait, ignore some of that. -- Steel 00:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Everything. -- Steel 01:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Done for connections section. I will look through the rest of the article tomorrow, hopefully. Tani unit 01:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: There was the BradyGames guide. I don't own it though. Schicksal 20:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I asked around on GameFAQs and apparently it doesn't have anything about the connections in it. Pain. -- Steel 20:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Perhaps one of us, as a wikipedia user, could inquire directly with team Ico or Fumito Ueda himself. Small chance but who knows. Shure would get some things cleared up. Tani unit 21:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would be willing to do that if I knew how to get in touch with them. -- Steel 21:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

text: His article lists http://fumi.to/ as his semi-defunct personal website, with ued@fumi.to 
as his email. Could be worth a shot. Tani unit 18:46, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ico connections 

message: This has been bugging me for a while. Do one non notable website's bogus claims deserve such a large section in the article? I'm in favour of getting rid of the entire section myself. -- Steel 18:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think we could keep it as a short one paragraph summary, with no pics.
For instance something like this: 
In October 2005, a viral marketing campaign was launched to promote the game. A website called Giantology.net posted links to several websites claiming that remains of five giants resembling certain colossi had been unearthed or discovered in various parts of the world.
We could also mention that compared to Ico the game received a lot more promotion and advertising. I'm pretty sure I could even find the article to source that. 
edit: - got it
Tani unit
I think this should go into the Reception paragraph after the sales figures.
How's this;
The game, unlike Ico, received far more exposure, due to Sony putting it's weight behind a massive advertising campaign. (ref the kikizo article here). It was advertized in game magazines, on TV and on the internet, including a viral marketing campaign that was launched in October 2005. A website called Giantology.net posted links to several websites claiming that remains of five giants resembling certain colossi had been unearthed or discovered in various parts of the world.
Some speculate that Ico's sales figures could have been much better if similar advertizing effort was made before it's release. (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=59445). Tani unit 01:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Viral Marketing Campaign 

message: ::I'm working on finishing up my copyedit (only two more sections to go, though I need to expand "Development"), but I'm concerned about the list of tracks from the game. I fear it's going to be considered a bit trivia-ish, like the cast list that Final Fantasy X once had, but I'm going to leave it in there and let Peer Review or FAC tell us what they think. Ryu Kaze 14:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As for the track list, I think Onlynameicanget got that idea from featured article Half-Life 2. -- Steel 14:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Most likely. The thing is, FACs go through phases, usually changing every other month. Sometimes they demand more and sometimes less. Lately it's been a case of a demand for more, though, thankfully, so I'm not too concerned. As long as we're comprehensive on everything else, we'll be fine, regardless of whether or not we have to lose the track list. I'm going to need to go back and work on the gameplay section a bit more, though, so that we do meet comprehensive standards. Ryu Kaze 15:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: "Little as possible" is very subjective, and it is directly related to the section it was added too. But if you think it's a no-no, get rid of it. -- Steel 16:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I'll leave it in there until someone suggests that it's unnecessary. Lately, there's been quite a bit of cracking down on more than one image cover, so I just thought you should be expecting it. Personally, I like the use of all the regional covers, but that fair-use stipulation usually is the death of them. Ryu Kaze 16:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, I'm pretty much done with copyediting the prose. The Reception section was really good before I even touched it, but the Awards needed to be de-listed and turned into prose. While on that subject, we've got a bit of a problem there: the last few have plenty of references, but the first few have none. I've been trying to find some references for that info, but haven't come across any, so if you guys know where that information came from, please add it. If you have the specific magazines in question, that would be even better, and you could make a cite book reference for it. Ryu Kaze 17:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I hate to do it, but without a reference for these things, we're going to have to lose three mentions in the awards. Ryu Kaze 18:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm pretty much done making adjustments. Unless someone else comes along with more suggestions, I think it's ready for Peer Review. It will probably actually be a good thing to leave a thing or two that we're not totally sure about in there so it's apparent to us and them that Peer Review or FAC is improving or approving the article. Ryu Kaze 18:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just noticed that we now have the Japanese cover art back in. There's no way that all three versions are going to get past Peer Review, mustless FAC, guys. We're definitely going to have to drop at least one of them, if not both the PAL and Japanese versions. Even Final Fantasy X recently had to remove its extra regional covers. An argument could possibly be made for the relevant inclusion of the PAL cover, but I doubt it. While it's relevant to the subject matter, it doesn't exactly convey anything of particular value that the NTSC U/C cover doesn't. I'm going to go ahead and drop the Japanese cover art. I'll leave the PAL version to see if it survives Peer Review, as I mentioned earlier, but I know that all three of them don't have a chance. Ryu Kaze 02:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Section break

message: Just now there was an image of a penis on the top of the page, but I could not find anything in edit history or in the code, and now it's gone seemingly by itself. Anyone know what exactly happened there? Tani unit 19:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: People were adding the pictures to the Nihongo template which is used at the beginning of thousands of articles (inc. this one). See the history to Template:Nihongo. -- Steel 19:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent vandalism 

message: This article has been going through too many drastic changes, it used to be filled with such rich information about the game but as I see it, as more new information is added, other valuable information disappears, such as the description for both the characters and the Colossi are no longer as rich with information as they used to be.Unknown Dragon 02:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only things disappearing from the article are either fan speculation, OR, or things that cannot be sourced. Overall the article is being brought to wikipedia's standards in accordance with guidelines. I'm not really shure what valuable information you think is missing, but if it's something specific by all means post it here for discussion. Tani unit 03:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

text: Because this is gameplay information that is reserved for gamesites and walkthroughs. This article serves as an encyclopedic entry about the game, not a gamer's resource for controls or gameplay tips. 
All of this was removed months prior to this wave of editing, and is discussed in the archives. Tani unit 03:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The shrine, fruit tree and lizard information was removed because it was very strategy guide-esque, which is not what Wikipedia is for. The table of the colossi was unsourced and people argued over both their names and what they looked like, so it had to go. The viral marketing campaign section was cut down significantly because one non-notable website's reaction to the game didn't deserve that amount of text.Hope that's explained everything -- Steel 09:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Butchering a Colossus 

message: Shadow of the Colossus is going to be released as part of a "Greatest Hits" list according to some website. Reliable source? Worth mentioning in the Reception section of the article? -- Steel 18:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Certainly worth mentioning. I've been hearing this for the last month or two. Apparently it's supposed to be happening at the beginning of August. I'll see if I can find a better source for it, though. Ryu Kaze 18:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Found a mention of it by GamePro, but it links to one of the other less reliable sources. GamePro's own article on the matter is only a few days old, and mentions that they've sent a request to Sony to confirm or deny the matter. I guess we might as well just wait a few days to find out if it's true or not before adding it. Ryu Kaze 18:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds good. -- Steel 18:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Something I just stumbled upon by accident

message: I wanted this info on the main page - why is it being removed? If these are not the proper names then somebody should at least put up the right ones. I found this info on gamefaqs and thought it was correct.
These are the various names for each colossi. The latin names were used in a Japanese gaming magazine.
(1) Proper name: Valus
Latin name: Minotaurus Colossus
Translation: Minotaur Colossus
(2) Proper name: Quadratus
Latin name: Taurus Magnus
Translation: Taurus Major
(3) Proper name: Gaius
Latin name: Terrestris Veritas
Translation: Earth Knight
(4) Proper name: Phaedra
Latin name: Equus Bellator Apex
Translation: Elite War Horse
(5) Proper name: Avion
Latin name: Avis Praeda
Translation: Bird of Prey
(6) Proper name: Barba
Latin name: Belua Maximus
Translation: Great Beast
(7) Proper name: Hydrus
Latin name: Draco Marinus
Translation: Sea Dragon
(8) Proper name: Kuromori
Latin name: Parietinae Umbra
Translation: Wall Shadow
(9) Proper name: Basaran
Latin name: Nimbus Recanto
Translation: Storm Echo
(10) Proper name: Dirge
Latin name: Harena Tigris
Translation: Sand Tiger
(11) Proper name: Celosia
Latin name: Ignis Excubitor
Translation: Flame Guardian
(12) Proper name: Pelagia
Latin name: Permagnus Pistrix
Translation: Great Sea Monster
(13) Proper name: Phalanx
Latin name: Aeris Velivolus
Translation: Air Sailer
(14) Proper name: Cenobia
Latin name: Cladeds Candor
Translation: Destruction Luster 
(15) Proper name: Argus
Latin name: Praesidium Vigilo
Translation: Vigilant Sentinel
(16) Proper name: Malus
Latin name: Grandis Supernus
Translation: Grand Superior
* This is trivia, which isn't necessary on Wikipedia — especially in a featured article. — Deckiller 03:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: We've had small edit wars over the names and translations of the colossi, and since we have no official source for any of this, there way no way of determining who was right. Without a source is can't be added per WP:V anyway. The colossi's names are most certainly trivial and unimportant. Nowhere in the game are the names given, they have no impact on the story or gameplay and I only realised they had names after seeing this posted on GameFAQs. The song list has actually been removed per concerns raised at FAC. -- Steel 10:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Colossi

message: Congratulations, and a huge thanks to all involved!  The progress this article has made ever since its informal peer review in early July has been nothing short of astounding.
I've archived all of the talk from the page into Archive 4 to give us some room.  Again: great work, everyone! --Onlynameicanget 03:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, first we need to write up a request for it to appear on the front page, which is the next step for the article.  Even then, it may take a while for it to be added to the queue.  I remember it took quite a while for Final Fantasy X's article, for example, to go on the front page - either that or they submitted the request long after it was featured.  --Onlynameicanget 05:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've made that box thing here (Note, I had to comment out the image due to fair use in userspace and all that). I'd personally like to request September the 18th. -- Steel 12:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Minus the image, the example box you made sounds good. As for a front page day, as I mentioned before, October 18th would be best since it's the first anniversary of the game's release. I know you'd like to see it appear on your birthday (a fine present that would be), but when specific days are requested, Raul wants to see it based on something relevant to the work itself. For some current examples, User:Monocrat is pushing Excel Saga for October 7, that anime's anniversary, while User:Peirigill is requesting All Saints' Day for the Gregorian Chant (this connection is obvious, I think). Ryu Kaze 12:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, if that's what Raul wants. I guess it's not as if my life depends on it appearing on that date in September. -- Steel 12:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: October 18th sounds good to me.  --Onlynameicanget 14:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *Burps* -- Steel 17:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Awesome job everyone. Hope I was helping more then getting in the way. Great learning experience that. Tani unit 20:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I disagree, I was glad to see one of my favourite games pop up as an FA.  And besides, this game borders on art.  Scratch that, it is art.SeriousCat 00:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with Brentt, but on a different basis. You cannot disqualify something from being important or valuable simply because you feel it's not a challenge or it's information so finite that it's a cinch to whip up an A grade page on it. There's no reason to discredit real and honest work and passion just because you don't think it's significant, and you should be glad there's pages like ICO. It shows that Wikipedia is unique, that it truly is a place for anyone and everyone to come together and hammer out a page that wouldn't even exist otherwise. Holier than thou attitudes and reservations on relevance on something that you do not understand completely (which goes for everyone) is a sign of your own close mindedness and discriminatory biases, you are not an avatar of academics, and if you were, you would respect this page and it's same veined cousins as you would respect any other well written page. Whether or not ICO is relevant is a moot point, no one person can decide or is deserving to decide. On another basis, video game FA BRING IN NEW BLOOD. Video games FA reaches an audience that would not be obtained by featuring WWII or Supernovas, and this brings in new people into the Wikipedia, and possibly into the Wikipedia fold of contribs. On this note, common courtesy and respect for all the pages, even the silly ones about Spongebob or mundane like diodes, will make Wikipedia a better place.Antsam 11:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Well, your opinion is in the minority, as it should be.  I have little interest in video games (or moralistic engravings, for that matter), but it's still fascinating to see what a unique game did differently from others, and how it fits into the development of its field (the Ico link was similarly interesting).  You'd profit from learning to enjoy the feeling of diving into an unfamiliar field and learning a little part of it, but if that's not you cup of tea, simply don't read it.  216.52.69.217 13:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Featured Article! 

message: I've noted some objections to the term 'centered around' being correct. Two citations from dictionary.com:
Dictionary.com usage note: 28. Although sometimes condemned for alleged illogicality, the phrases center about and center around have appeared in edited writing for more than a century to express the sense of gathering or collecting as if around a center: The objections center around the question of fiscal responsibility.
American Heritage Dictionary usage note: Usage Note: Traditionally, the verb center may be freely used with the prepositions on, upon, in, or at; but some language critics have denounced its use with around as illogical or physically impossible. But the fact that writers persist in using this phrase in sentences such as The discussion centered around the need for curriculum reform, a sentence that 71 percent of the Usage Panel accepts, suggests that many people perceive center around to best represent the true nature of what they are trying to say. Indeed, in an example like A storm of controversy centered around the king, the only appropriate choice seems to be around. Still, if one wishes to avoid the phrase center around, the phrase revolve around is available as an option. Since center can represent various relations involving having, finding, or turning about a center, the choice of a preposition depends on what is intended. There is ample evidence for usages with each preposition listed above. The Panel accepts all of these uses except the one with at. Seventy-seven percent reject the sentence The company has been centered at Atlanta for the last five years. See Usage Note at equal. Hrimfaxi 10:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Centered around'

message: Most of the other game pages contain a warning for plot spoilers.  I do not see why this page should be different from the majority of pages.  I also do not think it is superior because I expect to be warned if it is a full divulgance of the story or a simple overview.  For instance, I do not expect the back cover of a book to give away the entire story, just what it is generally about.  I personaly made the mistake of reading the ending on this article when I did not want to, and while one could argue that I was simply careless or stupid, I ask, if saying that a section of the article is about the story is enough of a warning, why is there a spoiler warning template at all?  Why do most other game article use it in an almost identical context?  Why change the previous policy: is something on Wikipedia hurt by a spoiler warning?  Is simple, minor (alleged) redundancy such a crime if it prevents (what I will call for lack of a better term) injury to a reader?  I think this needs to be reexamened, and if you do think that a spoiler is truly unnessisary, they you should probably remove the spoiler warning in all instances of its occurance and perhaps disable the template itself.  For now I am not personnaly planning to add a spoiler warning as I do not want an edit war more than anyone else, but I really think it should have one and the subject definately needs evaluation.
Also, I think that the fact that people frequently (relatively speaking) make the "mistake" of adding a spoiler warning ought to be telling about the decision not to include the warning and about how much sense it actually makes to users.
-Oniamien
:The use of spoiler warnings is contested. People are trying to remove it from every article, there's a request for comment around somewhere on it. As far as this article goes, isn't it obvious that there are going to be spoilers there? Bear in mind the section is titled "Story", not "Synopsis" or "Plot Overview". To be honest, though, Wikipedia's content disclaimer announces in big letters that articles contain spoilers and that should be enough. -- Steel 09:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Basically what Steel said. The subject has been in constant evaluation since people began using spoiler tags here. Many people think they're absurd given the content disclaimer, the encyclopedia's purpose to inform and the fact that no other professional encyclopedia (which is what we're trying to become) uses such tags. Of course, many others do not, and so there is conflict on the subject. Ryu Kaze 14:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is obviously an issue much larger than just this article but since we're here...  Would it, then, be good (or, at least acceptable) to have a separate "Synopsis" section?  I'm a regular Wikipedia user (read: fanboy) and was caught off-guard by the spoilers. Nklatt 20:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Many (if not most) other game articles contain plot spoiler warnings 

message: Colossi is an incorrect plural spelling for the word 'colossus' (see the Wiktionary entry: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Colossus), analogous to the frequently used incorrect plural spelling of the word 'octopus', 'octopi'. Its correct plural spelling is 'colossuses'.
The reason for the spelling seen in the game is likely either an artistic license, or a misconception on the part of the game's translator(s).
I find myself unable to add this piece of relevant info into the article without degrading its readability. Perhaps someone with a better grasp of the written word than myself would be inclined to add it?
Damn FAs, they're just so damn hard to improve. -FrostyBytes 10:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's generally held that both "colossi" and "colossuses" are a valid plural form of the word. In Latin, at the least, "colossi" may actually be the correct spelling, assuming — as many do — that it is a second declension Latin noun. Given that the game's developers gave each colossus a Latin title, it's probable that "colossi" was the intended spelling for the game. It should remain as such for this article, especially since it is a valid rendering of the word (and the spelling used invariably in the game itself). Ryu Kaze 12:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: Also, dictionary.com says that "colossi" is the preferred plural... I should look into it more, I'm a strong advocate of "octopuses" over "octopi" , since the truly "correct" spelling is "octopodes" but that is terribly pedantic.  How does Greek make "kolossus" plural? -JC 01:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: My Greek go-to guy says that "kolossos" plurals to "kolossoi".  Either way, as the "colossi" of the game are their own unique creatures, I think for the article that the in-game spelling is the best fit, regardless of etymology. -mordicai. 21:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good point. I'm inclined to agree, though I still think it'd be proper to add at least some reference to this matter of different plural spellings, perhaps something as little as the wikification of a single appropriate word. -FrostyBytes 11:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is, on cursory glance, I don't see any easy wikilink to make that could side-step the issue.  Even then, a semantics argument is only going to be of so much interest, especially when the verdict is still out on the "proper" pluralization.  If colossi wasn't just as valid as colossuses, I could see the value of an aside, but I think as it stands there doesn't need to be any edit on the subject-- unless you can think of an elegent way to put it in without it sticking out like an extra left foot.  -mordicai. 19:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Colossi" 

message: Why is the one column format better than two? Two columns takes less space and it stays as readable as the one column version. --Mika1h 15:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The amount of space two columns saves as opposed to one column is very small. One column is much more user friendly and is worth an extra six or so lines in the article. -- Steel 17:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  References 

message: I quote: "This confusion results from a failure to account for the Japanese language lacking an 'er' phonetic. A common compromise is to use an 'ah' syllable instead, in an effort to simulate a non-rhotic 'er' phonetic when transliterating foreign words into Japanese." Didn't anyone notice that "phonetic" isn't a noun? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.145.19.66 (talk) 12:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: How would you rephrase it? Also, making a generalization on one minor, perhaps subjective issue is very questionable. — Deckiller 13:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: If I'm not mistaken, the correct linguistic term in this case is "phoneme".  If someone with a linguist's background can confirm, then we can simply substitute words.  216.52.69.217 14:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: –noun 5. (in Chinese writing) a written element that represents a sound and is used in combination with a radical to form a character. - dictionary.com. Assume this would apply to Japenese writing as well.212.56.97.238 14:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's wrong with the word "sound"? 14:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What's wrong with using "critter" when you mean "dragonfly"?  ;)  A more precise term exists, so a good encyclopedia should use that term.  Especially when it can directly wikilink to the "phoneme" article for anybody who doesn't know the word already.216.52.69.217 16:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: But "phoneme" isn't necessarily what's meant here. Japanese doesn't just not have an "er" phoneme, it doesn't have any sound (or phone if you want to use the technical term) that sounds like "er". I also don't see how substituting an "ah" sound for an "er" sound can be called either a compromise or a "simulation of a non-rhotic 'er'" (which sounds like a contradiction in terms). --85.178.37.83 16:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is what was meant: The creator of the game, who is a Japanese person, created the character and named him "Wander". However, the Japanese language doesn't have an "-er" phone, phoneme, phonetic, sound, syllable, or whatever you want to call it. So they use a the "ah" phone, which gives the effect of an English pronunciation of "Wander" with a non-rhotic "er" phone. That is to say, it is pronounced as someone from London UK or Tenessee USA would. Is this still not clear? This is coming from someone who considers US Midwestern English to be the standard, where the "er" at the end of Wander would be pronounced with a fully rhotic R. Perhaps that's the source of the confusion. 04:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  I thought featured articles were supposed to be well written 

message: Apart from the obvious figure of the horned shadow, could the concept of Dormin be based on Luciferian imagery? Note that Dormin first "appears" to Wander in the form of a light from above, as per famous Satanic "deception". In fact the voice could either be construed as directly demonic or ironically, even that of God given its source. When Dormin finally takes form, it appears as though they have deceived Wander into sacrificing his "soul" in his deal to save Mono.
Franck Drake 15:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dormin as Lucifer 

message: Both the opening and final cinematic elements of the game involve a hawk(?) or other bird of prey flying against a darkened sky. I might also suggest that it actually makes the game seem like a loop as the intro sequence plays right after the ending... Franck Drake 15:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Something Extra for the spoilers... 

message: This game looks like it sucks. It probably does not, but just by reading the first article no dungeons, towns, people or monsters, this game dosn't look that great... --TheGreenLink 19:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Please remember that this talk page is for discussing the article and improvements to the article.  This is not the place to discuss the game itself.  ShadowHalo 19:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suck... 

message: Yesterday I tried to offer a more literal translation of the Japanese title Wanda to Kyozou, which would be "Wander and Giant Statue". That is literally what kyozou means. It's a compound of two kanji- kyo, meaning huge/giant/immense etc. and zou which in this context means statue. I don't know if my edit was reverted because someone objected to it, or if it was simply lost in the vandalism/rv mess. If anyone has any objections, I'd like to hear them. Druff 20:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, since no one spoke up, I'm going to edit it again. Please leave any future objections here. Druff 04:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've explained that 巨像 is a word used in the names of colossi in history and in Japanese and Chinese encyclopedic articles. The Colossus of Rhodes, for example, uses these two characters, and we can assume the two characters appeared after the statue's constuction. *kaburicho 02:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Literal translation of Kyozou 

message: Wouldn't it be easier to read and better looking to make a table of road up awarrds and major reviews next to the reception section than have a crushed together hard to read paragraph that lists mostly nominations? Notice that other games like Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and Twilight Princess have boxes that are alot clearer for awards to get the idea. Stabby Joe 11:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm indifferent to them, but I know other editors are against them. Regardless, I'd rather we didn't use "but other articles which aren't FAs use them!" as an argument. – Steel 12:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: They aren't featured for other reasons actually, and besides I never said better for the other articles, I said clearer, as it is clearer to read. Find it odd people are against them since they are clearer and make the page more presentable than a listed paragraph structure. Stabby Joe 17:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

text: ...Huh.  Something about the table format just rubs me the wrong way.  I think it might be just that it makes the article look a lot more like a "review site" than an encylopedia article.  While I find your argument sound, User:Stabby Joe, something about the actual presentation sticks in my craw.  Maybe the table is just more intrusive to the over-all article than a paragraph is.  --mordicai. 19:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's more readable and presentable than a string of sentances. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stabby Joe (talk • contribs) 22:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Awards Box 

message: I noticed that there is no section that describes the unlockable weapons in "Shadow of the Colossus". Is it that users don't want to spoil the secret of those weapons, or is it O.K. to put them in the article?
WaterMan90 19:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is ok to add a section on special weapons that can be unlocked in the game. If there is any concern about spoilers, that's why the spoiler tag was invented. You'll have to add the section though, I haven't finished all the time trials yet. -- Guitarmankev1(TALK) 00:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No it is not ok to add a section on special weapons. Wikipedia is not an instruction manual, a game guide or a FAQ. – Steel 11:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I agree with Steel.  A "secret weapon" section veers into FAQ territory, & compromises the tone of the article.  --mordicai. 13:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Ok I won't add it. Thanks for your comments. WaterMan90 05:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Secret Weapons 

message: The article states that Wander fights sixteen colossi, but the summary of the plot describes an ending after Wander defeats the thirteenth. Are they not all available in story mode? What gives? grendel|khan 23:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are 16 throughout the course of the story.  I also got the impression from the way the plot was described in the article that there were only 13 but I have elaborated a little to ensure that this mistake cannot be made going forward.  ...in America! 14:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There are short cutscenes after the 4th, 8th, and 12th colossus battles. In the story section, the article jumped to "last" after describing the cutscene after the 12th. It did not say "thirteenth", but I could see how you might misunderstand it. As Antisora said, it's now "sixteenth" instead of "last". Leebo T/C 14:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thirteen or sixteen colossi? 

message: Does anyone want to agree with me when I say that playing this game feels much like a mix between a Celtic folktale and a Greek epic? I must say that the music is extremely Scottish/Irish, and the Colossi are reminiscent of Greek/Roman monsters of myth? Elaborate.
:More people have linked them with Aztec/Mayan etc. Stabby Joe 13:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  In fact the art seems to be inspired in Toltec. Ok. many people may think it's very similar, but believe me it's very different. 189.145.100.70 01:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Like a Greek Epic 

message: I seem to have encountered a glitch in the game while proceeding towards the 2nd colossus and the rider and the horse freezes, but the camera can be moved, and found after a google search that there was this issue with the game for different players approaching different colossi. should this be mentioned in the article. Idleguy 04:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issue on glitches 

message: I thought that the single quotation taken from the Edge review didn't really give the right impression - the review was actually a lot more balanced and thoughtful than that one statement implies. I left it in the article, but I added what I think is a more interesting Edge quotation to use to represent the range of the critical discussion of the game - one of from the magazine's recent "The 100 Best Videogames" special issue. Here's the full version of what I added:
:"But then you find yourself in a fiction of unquestionable thematic richness, of riveting emotional power, whose fundamental artistic qualities are completely fused with its interactivity. Shadow of the Colossus's stature as something worth discussing (in ways that the critical mainstream restricts for examples of other media) is entirely dependent on it being a game, and not a book or a film."
There's also this one from the same article, which contained a line I also considered adding:
:"At all points, Shadow of the Colossus delivers its artistic vision through your agency as a player, your active involvement facilitating its main themes - isolation, struggle and loss - all compounded by an aesthetic of great depth and unity."
Also, compared to the original Edge review, the retrospective gives a slightly different view of the clumsiness of the Agro controls:
:"He doesn't always obey. Momentarily frustrating as this may be, the sense of Agro resisting your agency makes him your one source of companionship."
--Nick RTalk 22:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edge magazine comments 

message: I see in this article mention of the graphics and the negine. But what I don't see is any mention of which engine Team Ico used on this game. Does anybody have any info on this? SOADLuver 18:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think they use their own engine. Check this article about development of Shadow. --Perplexing 08:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: game engine?

message: While its not on the same level as trivia, its still loosly the same rather minor infomation which is discouraged here. I have agreed this with Steel, one of the few active edittors left on this page that its rather minor and quite trivial info and isn't required. Stabby Joe 13:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I confirm the above. – Steel 13:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other Media 

message: Thats what this link says:
http://
teamicogamers.blogspot.
com/2007/10/
shadow-men-interview-with-fumito-ueda.html
(put link together again because wiki won't let me post the real link, its perfectly fine site)
Worth noting? Stabby Joe 01:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inspired by Godzilla? 

message: I just reverted the article after someone blanked the entire thing. I think that someone who knows how to or who has the authority should lock this article to prevent any more vandalizism. If no one has done it by the time that I actually figure out how to, I'll do it myself. --Absurdity 15:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Lock

message: Correct me if I'm wrong... hasn't this already been a featured article back in 2006? ARBlackwood 02:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Featured Article... again?

message: This page links to images of Adolf Hitler. It is being rapidly edited and vandalized.
User:Jarex
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes.  Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).  The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. ffm yes? 01:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalized 

message: Hey, guys. I just thought I'd let you all know that I've resized four of the images on this page to ensure that they meet fair-use criteria. This change was sparked by the more intensive analysis of what is and isn't fair-use that's been going on lately, an example of which can be seen in Final Fantasy VII's FAC. I don't want any FA articles losing their status over this, or any good images being deleted. So if you guys have any articles you watch regularly, look into the sizes of their images. We don't want to lose any good material unnecessarily. Ryu Kaze 02:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why does an image's size affect fair use? SeriousCat 03:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought it was believed that we could further justify fair use if the images we were using were not of a high resolution. It's certainly mentioned in the various templates for screenshots - Estel (talk) 08:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Yes, it's not size, but resolution that's important.  If we knock down the resolution, but keep it the same size, that's fine (basically, resize the image to be small, and then blow it up again, losing detail (resolution) in the process).  We want to avoid high-resolution images since they could arguably be not appropriate for fair use. -JC 10:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Images

message: I noticed that Dormin backwords is "Nimrod". It says in the Bible that Nimrod was the person who built the tower of Babel. Anyone else see a connection between this and the size of the Shrine of Worship? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.232.235.247 (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, you're probably right.  Japanese video game studios have a long-established fondness for Hebrew mythology and the Kabbalah.  Influences and notions from biblical texts and other ancient belief systems are frequently mined for ideas for Japanese-made games in fantasy settings, to such an extent that American game developers are now beginning to ape the practise.  For instance, witness Final Fantasy VII and the link between the character Sephiroth and the Kabbalic Sephirot.  Kasreyn 02:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dormin=Nimrod? 

message: Come on people, share your thoughts! I have yet to beat the game totally, but if I were to find a 17th colossus I would be amazed. - Xfa
:Sign with 4 Tildes. - !Malomeat 09:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Xfa.  I have seen no evidence of a 17th colossus.  You might be wondering why someone has reverted your edit, about now.  The big reason I would thing is that Wikipedia is not a place for conjecture or rumor.  Mentioning it here in the Talk page, as you did, was good, but it probably would have been best to post here first.  If the rumor was true, or could be cited from a reliable source, it might warrent inclusion; asking on a talk page if someone can substantiate a rumor is better than posting it to the main article.  Just something to chew on.  --mordicai. 19:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  17th Colossus - Fake or True?