Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather/General meteorology task force/Archive 3

message: I'm suprised looking at the list of subjects that I find only weather events and nothing related to theory, intruments or data in this project?
Pierre cb 21:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I know there is a lot of articles and many of great quality. I know where to look for them, too! I'm just saying that THIS project just list sexy themes as hurricanes, tornadoes or storms but nothing on the bread and butter of meteorology, not even a category, for such subject as thermodynamic of the atmosphere, adiabatic processes, convection, meteorological instruments, meteorological satellites, data collection (weather balloon, surface stations, sea surface temperature), etc... I'm not asking to list them all just to place a categories for them in the article.
Pierre cb 03:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That's stuff that I definitely want added. However, I couldn't really help with any of those, since I know little about actual tools used in meteorology and forecasting. bob rulz 21:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Would anybody object to  a Technology (Meteorology) and a Atmospheric science sub category of :Category:Meteorology. Undeneath it could either go a list of pages, or there could be further subcategories for the type of technology where there is a significant grouping (sattelites may be one such area - GOES, Meteosat, etc...) --Crimsone 10:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  already exists....meteorology is one specific atmospheric science...-Runningonbrains 19:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A fair point :) lol Crimsone 03:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other thing to add to the list to do 

message: Something just occurred to me as I was looking at articles like the Super Outbreak, April 6-8, 2006 Tornado Outbreak, Late-November 2005 Tornado Outbreak, etc. For articles on outbreaks with, say more than 20 tornadoes, there should be a separate article for the tablature listing of tornadoes, which currently appears on the main page.  IMO, the tables are very encyclopaedic and informative, but are also very disruptive to the flow of the page.  I put an example of the new format I would suggest in my userspace, see main article and list of tornadoes to see what I mean.  Good or bad idea? -Runningonbrains 18:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Bad idea. In many outbreaks (those without one or more really, really significant tornado - i.e. the Gallatin tornado on April 7 - that have their own sections), that would reduce the article to a stub. IMO, it takes the heart of the page out. It would be like moving the Impact section of hurricane pages off onto separate pages (which has only been done once - for Katrina - due to length). Maybe if the Super Outbreak happened today and we had so much information, that would work, but otherwise, I'd leave it as is. CrazyC83 23:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What I'm pushing for is not to replace the impact section.  In my opinion, if there is nothing but a stub when you take that list out, then the outbreak probably doesn't deserve an article.  And when speaking about the Super Outbreak, there are a dozen or more tornadoes in there that could have their own article, so i doubt making that a Featured Article would be that hard.  On the contrary, I doubt it could qualify as an FA with such a long list disrupting the flow of the article. -Runningonbrains 00:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That is true. The Super Outbreak would be filled with sections on individual tornadoes if we get the information. CrazyC83 00:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure, it may be better to put the description of some of the tornadoes texts in the parent article and that would also put a greater chance for the Super Outbreak article to be considered as a feature as it would not have the problem of conflict/disputed (NOAA VS the April 3 1974 page) data of the list. The only thing maybe to add on the table is just direct link to the individual tornado sub-section. Meanwhile, we can continue to add sub-sections for other tornadoes like Windsor, Frankfort, Juno, GA, Roanoke, and some of the Tennessee tornadoes (Cumberland, Moodyville, Etowah, etc) in which info is quite hard to find and conflicting (and confusing too).--JForget 13:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

text: I think Runningonbrains's proposal looks good.  It should of course only be used where the main article can be expanded to more than a stub. —Mike 23:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tornado lists 

message: Here is how, in my opinion, the importance for storm events should be done:
Top - None that currently exists. If there is a far-reaching, flagship article (like Katrina was to hurricanes), then that would go there, but that would have to be something that is long-remembered on a global basis and in every history book.
High - Leading events of each type, i.e. Super Outbreak, Palm Sunday Tornado Outbreak, 1993 North American Storm Complex, Great Flood of 1993, Dust Bowl. Those events are long-remembered on a national basis and set the standards for those event types.
Mid - Other events that would be equivalent to a retired hurricane due to high damage and loss of life. They are remembered on a regional basis but generally not in normal conversations or really thought of much beyond the regions affected.
Low - Everything else.
Any other thoughts? CrazyC83 00:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For top, what about Ice age? Currently, it's not in the meterology project, but it is a far-reaching, flagship article that is long-remembered on a global basis, and probably in some history books. Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think those are good criteria. I can't really think of any specific weather events aside from Hurricane Katrina that would fit top-importance. bob rulz 01:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: A comparable example (hypothetically) would be the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake for an Earthquakes or Seismic activity project (which AFAIK does not exist). CrazyC83 19:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Classifying importance for storm events 

message: I have recommended a peer review take place on two articles, for completely different reasons:
* Red rain in Kerala - Currently one of two event GA's and a long-lasting one that I think is closest to becoming our first FA
* Meteorology - Considerable work needed, and I think a review is needed to identify the spots in the central article.
CrazyC83 19:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer reviews 

message: The following weather events that are listed at the NCDC site do NOT have articles (at least from my analysis):
*Florida Freeze of 1983 ($4 billion/0 deaths)
*Gulf Coast El Nino storms of 1983 ($2.2 billion/50 deaths)
*Western US El Nino storms of 1983 ($2.2 billion/45 deaths)
*Florida Freeze of 1985 ($2.2 billion/0 deaths)
*Southern US Heat Wave of 1986 ($2.4 billion/~100 deaths)
*North American Heat Wave of 1988 ($62 billion/~5,000 deaths)
*Midwest Drought of 1989 ($1.5 billion/0 deaths)
*South Central US Flood of 1990 ($1.4 billion/13 deaths)
*East Coast Nor'easter of 1992 ($2.2 billion/19 deaths)
*Southern US Heat Wave of 1993 ($1.3 billion/16 deaths)
*California Wildfires of 1993 ($1.3 billion/4 deaths)
*Southern US Ice Storm of 1994 ($3.7 billion/9 deaths)
*Texas Flood of 1994 ($1.2 billion/19 deaths)
*Western US Wildfires of 1994 ($1.2 billion/unknown deaths)
*California Flood of 1995 ($3.6 billion/27 deaths)
*Texas-Oklahoma Drought of 1996 ($6 billion/0 deaths)
*Western US Flood of 1997 ($3.4 billion/36 deaths)
*March 1997 Flooding and Tornado Outbreak ($1.1 billion/67 deaths)
*Southern US Heat Wave of 1998 ($8-10 billion/200 deaths)
*Texas Flood of 1998 ($1.1 billion/31 deaths)
*Arkansas Tornado Outbreak of January 1999 ($1.4 billion/17 deaths)
*North American Heat Wave of 1999 ($1 billion/502 deaths)
*Western US Wildfires of 2000 ($2.1 billion/0 deaths)
*April 2001 Tornado Outbreak ($1.9 billion/3 deaths)
*Western US Wildfires of 2002 ($2 billion/21 deaths)
*North American Drought of 2002 ($10 billion/0 deaths)
The freezes and droughts are probably the least likely to have good information for an article. Other than that, I think articles should be created for most or all of those if the information is found. I may start some myself. CrazyC83 23:55, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Wow, the heat wave of 88 isnt an article???? Isn't that the second costliest weather disaster in US history (behind Katrina)? And in the top-10 deadliest? -Runningonbrains 06:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That surprised me too, but I couldn't find one. Heat waves, freezes and droughts tend to be quite overlooked and aren't exactly memorable for articles like hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and blizzards are. However, I agree it should be a high priority. CrazyC83 00:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

text: That may not be a bad idea.  An article could be created for a heat or cold wave.  It would require some work, of course.  More work than is usually necessary for a storm.  In some cases, it could be attached to the preceding storm, if such a storm exists.  Thegreatdr 05:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Billion-dollar disasters (USA 1980-2005) 

message: In the last 3 weeks or so, we have had four new GA's: Evansville Tornado of November 2005, Extratropical cyclone, North American ice storm of 1998 and Thunderstorm. There are several more articles I am targetting for GA soon, and at least two - Extratropical cyclone and Red Rain in Kerala - that may be getting close to a run at FA (almost A-class). Hopefully more Stubs will become Starts, Starts to B's, etc. CrazyC83 00:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The good news... 

message: Ok, not so bad, but a little perplexing. An IP (192.160.158.113) has been moving lots of articles out of the meteorology category, and into other categories. (as opposed of course to simply adding other categories). Does anybody know anything about this and why it's being done? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crimsone (talk • contribs) 
:As a general rule, its better to have articles in subcategories than just in general  because the meteorology would become rediculously overpopulated if every meteorological article was placed there.  They seem like some pretty good edits...it actually feels quite refreshing to see an anon IP being constructive. -Runningonbrains 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Fair comment. :) Crimsone 13:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Meteorology would have to get populated first before overpopulation becomes a problem.  Do a quick search for articles under the meteorology heading and the hurricane heading.  Thegreatdr 10:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had thought that thats the way things were done, but maybe I was mistaken.  I would think that putting sub-categories as opposed to  would be desirable, but i suppose using both would be possible... -Runningonbrains 14:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: To be honest, with your explanation, Runningonbrains, I'm more comfortable with it this way. Categories could be seen alomost as this encyclopedias "index", or table of contents. Any article relating directly to Meteorology as a whole should undoubtedly be in the meteorology category. However, articles pertaining to a specific area or field of Meteorology should be in one or more sub-categories. The meteorology category is thus populated with each sub-category, plus articles relating directly to the subject as a whole. Of course, there's no reason that a given article couldn't be in more than one subcategory, or both a subcategoty and its parent depending on the subject of the article. --Crimsone 15:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This is the problem I'm running into with tropical cyclones such as Allison (1989 and 2001), Floyd (1999), Alberto (1994), Camille (1969), etc.  I don't see why they can't have a flood tag as well, since they were significant flood events.  Thegreatdr 18:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with Crimsone, articles should be placed in respective subcategories unless there is some important mutual content for cross categorical inclusion.  This is how things are done on Wikipedia in general and there are a lot of articles related to meteorlogy so it's warranted here.  As for the Meteorology WikiProject, that could be more inclusive, obviously.  In the case of some events, like tropical cyclones that create great flooding, a flood tag is appropriate IMO. Including a tag for every little thing that every article tacitly covers, however is different; as is tagging everything under a parent category when a more specific one is appropriate (a la Crimsone's comments). Evolauxia 11:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

text: A category format should be decided upon. -- Hard Raspy Sci 02:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The bad news... 

message: I've been trying to get this Portal back up and running, and I think it's about ready to go.  Anyone see anything that can be improved there? -Runningonbrains 08:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looking pretty good :) CrazyC83 01:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Portal:Weather]] 

message: Use the sub-project templates or no?  GO! -Runningonbrains 14:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sticking my head in here, if they feed into the parent WikiProject category, there's not much of a problem. See  for an example of what they're doing... they all link to their project, which is the primary purpose of WikiProject banners: to bring more editors in. Also, if the project ever splits further, it means modifying just one page, instead of retagging all of them. Titoxd(?!?) 16:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question.... 

message: A surprising number of wind and cloud related articles were not included in meteorology, for whatever reason.  One was a featured article candidate at one point.  I included my best guess as to their grade and importance.  You can feel free to edit, as ever.  Thegreatdr 21:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Generally speaking, if they are former FAC candidates and still almost there, that would be A-class. Otherwise, they would be B-class at the most. (Not GA unless they previously passed that) CrazyC83 01:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There were very few references, so I made the article B, which might still be a little high.  Apparently the FAC attempt occurred before references were required a year or so ago.  Thegreatdr 13:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Makes sense. I go with B if there is near-GA detail and can pass on that but short on references. I tend to go Start if it cannot pass GA on most criteria, and B if it can pass on at least three of the six from my view. CrazyC83 05:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Orphaned pages now part of meteorology project 

message: Well, there's quite a long discussion at WikiProject Tropical cyclones' talk page about merging some aspects of the projects to several degrees... and it would be nice if someone would comment about it. Ideally, it would be nice to keep discussion centralized, so if possible, let's keep all the talk there. Titoxd(?!?) 01:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relevant discussion between this project and [[WP:WPTC|WPTC]] 

message: I am almost ready to put it up for an FAC. It just received a Peer Review and I am just trying to get consent on whether to put it up now or not. CrazyC83 01:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You need some more citations. The damage pics section in the bottom should probably be put in the article (like one at the right of the tornado table). The November 15 tornado mention should probably go in the aftermath, as well. Hurricanehink (talk) 02:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: November 15 was a separate event, in a separate article, and different people were affected. (That one is barely at B-class; although the reassessment is complete to allow it to get there, it still needs reorganization and more information) CrazyC83 02:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, I mean currently the November 15 outbreak is mentioned in the meteorological effects. Either it should be removed or put in the aftermath. Hurricanehink (talk) 02:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Definately should ditch the images section...I am very against having galleries in articles...thats what Commons is for.  I'll merge the images into the article.  -Runningonbrains 02:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Almost ready for FAC: [[Evansville Tornado of November 2005]] 

message: We now have more than 500 assessed articles for the project, less than 2 months after we started assessing. (minor applause) We should all pat ourselves on the back a little bit. -Runningonbrains 10:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Also quite a few have been moving up in assessment... CrazyC83 17:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor Milestone 

message: Further to Thegreatdr's assessment as start class earlier today, I have just performent a substantial copyedi and re-write of the article Cyclone and added some relevant sources (one of which took an hour and a half to find - Darn that Wizard of Oz. lol).
I would still say some work is possible (I somehow doubt it's FAC material! lol), but it's a long way from where it was this morning. Could somebody please give it a new assessment? --Crimsone 16:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Request assessment

message: The pages needing attention section on the project page needs, erm, attention!
Many sections are noted "updated by bot", but having looked through them for pages relating to cyclogenesis, mid-lattitude cyclone, and extratropical cyclone, it appears that there's no bot updating them. Crimsone 16:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have also been wondering about that.  Anyone know about this mythical bot? I'm going to remove the non-meteorology/outdated ones for now until we get it sorted out.-Runningonbrains 19:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

text: Bob Johnson (weatherman) (which was in a poor state) was nominated for AFD, but I've given it an overhaul. You may like to contribute to its AFD. The JPStalk to me 20:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Pages needing attention

message: We should have one on the main page there, like at WP:TC.  I'll put a blank section...if you make a new article, add it there. It'll help with the Portal's DYK.-Runningonbrains 03:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Good idea. The list of billion-dollar disasters is somewhere good to start. Also for an assessment tracker in calendar format, I created User:CrazyC83/Assessment (from 1980-2007, it will be decadal and event-focused rather than calendar-focused before 1980). CrazyC83 05:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  The thing is, there haven't been any fresh new articles lately, at least from my end.  I've been busy trying to find previously untagged meteorology articles and tag them, as well as adding information into cyclogenesis, tropical cyclogenesis, extratropical cyclone, and stub/start articles relating to those topics.  Comma head may be fertile ground for a new article. Thegreatdr 16:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of new articles 

message: Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory.  This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you.  B2T2 00:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project directory 

message: The following is transcribed from Talk:Great_Lakes_Blizzard_of_1977#References:
Does anybody know why some of the references have been changed to a footnote style instead of the (Author Year) style this article previously had?  The Wikipedia "Citing Sources" page indicates that one should "follow the established practice for the appropriate profession or discipline that the article is concerning".  It would seem that the American Meterological Society standard for their journals would be the relevant style and that was the former style of referencing in this article (and still for some of the article).  Snincr 19:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe what they are referring to is citing sources at the end of the article.  To improve the flow of pages on wikipedia it is recommended that pages be written with footnotes instead of actual inline citation (i.e. author year).  It just seems to be convention.  However, you do bring up a good point...I will mention it at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources, as the way it is worded now is very confusing. -Runningonbrains 16:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is decidedly not recommended that pages be written with footnotes instead of Harvard referencing. Both systems are perfectly acceptable. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  ==References==