Talk:Kefir

message: How long should unsubstantiated statements be tolerated?  The story that Marco Polo tasted kefir during his travels has been present on this page for a long time without substantiation.  If this claim is true, it should be pretty easy to prove, since Marco Polo's works are in the public domain.  If nobody can pin this down, it's probably false.  Many other web pages are now repeating that Marco Polo tasted kefir (with no more detail).  I therefore suggest explicitly noting that this story is probably false.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.8.11.15 (talk) 03:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Marco Polo

message: *Can someone check into this Matt Fastow person who is claimed to be the inventor of this drink? The book that is listed as a source for this information is inaccessible to me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds this a suspicious claim. bwmcmaste (talk) 04:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Inventor"

message: Unless I'm missing something that Red Bull link can be removed because it seems like advertising to me.
12:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is that red Bull link just an Add? 

message: The International Kefir community provides access to real kefir grains, mostly free or for cost of postage. I believe that this is useful information, not SPAM. If this is not acceptable, then a Google link that helps people find free kefir grains should be given. Webaware 16:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kefir grains list - not SPAM 

message: If someone is looking for coconut kefir information than wikipedia is not probably the best place for it. It's spam. -- tasc talkdeeds 10:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: SPAM is unsolicited commercial information. A detailed description of how coconut water kefir is made is not SPAM. Kefir is broadly recommended as a "superfood", so many people with nutrition-based health problems are seeking information about what kefir is and how to prepare it. Some of these people (not a small number) cannot tolerate dairy, and are interested in ways to get the probiotic benefits of kefir without inflicting lactose or casein on their gastro intestinal tracts. Rather than providing a full description of these preparation methods (thus turning Wikipedia into a recipe book), I think it is better to provide references to existing information. Webaware 10:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Kefir is not known to be or contain probiotics, but some health effects may be attributed to kefir. Knorrepoes 09:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: A google scholar search with search terms "kefir probiotic" would suggest otherwise.Trishm (talk) 13:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Of course, probiotics can be added commercially to kefir. But that is different as stating that all kefir contains probiotics. And the definition of a probiotic is that it is a bacterial strain, so never a product.Knorrepoes (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Coconut kefir 

message: BBC page on that. 86.136.252.198 01:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Health benefits 

message: G'day all. I have created a page on my website, detailing where to obtain real kefir grains. This page includes links to:
* lists of users who share real kefir grains
* email lists and web forums where people share kefir grains
* some commercial suppliers of real kefir grains
* some commercial suppliers of powdered kefir starters (hey, some people apparently like them!)
I've done this because too many Wikipedians want to remove any such links from this article, citing WP:EL. I personally think that information on how to find real kefir grains is important to the article, but I can't add the link to my page (above) because I'm affiliated - I made the page, it's on my website, Catch-22.
If you think that information on finding kefir grains is useful to include in this article, please add a link to this page to the External links section of the article. Webaware 22:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Honestly, I'm not too concerned about it either way, but I just thought I'd throw in my two cents.  First, let me be clear: I'm not bashing your page at ALL - speaking as someone who makes a lot of unusual and historical foods and drinks, I think it's great that you're interested in sharing "rare" culinary ingredients.  That said, I don't see any call for linking that sort of site on Wikipedia.  Wikipedia isn't a how-to compendium.  Anyone who wants to try making kefir should really pop over to Google (or whatever seach service they prefer) for step-by-step instructions or shopping needs.  Imagine what the Bread page would look like if everyone who wanted to trade local artisanal grains or share their favorite recipe put a link on there, or if the Automobile page turned into a Craigslist-esque vintage parts swap.  I realize you aren't running a commercial site and you're not trying to prey on people or anything, but your site just doesn't seem relevant to an encyclopedic article.76.196.236.118 (talk) 05:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Finding Kefir Grains 

message: The first paragraph in the health benefits section is cut and pasted from two places in an article written by Edward Farnworth in the "Food Science and Technology Bulletin"  in 2005.  It's plainly copyrighted and is available online.  This link may work: plagerized
If not check out www.ifis.org and search for kefir.  I can't seem to figure out what to do about it.James.folsom 19:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Which article are you concerned with? I'd remove the sections and give this URL in the edit summary and talk page as my rationale, if it's true. I might summarize the passages and give the URL as a reference. Xiner (talk, email) 21:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: plagiarism

message: I'm removing a passage from the article because it appears to be from an author who is confusing koumiss production with kefir production.  I'm placing the passage here in case someone can prove otherwise. 
::(Throughout history, kefir was kept and fermented in a simple leather pouch, never to be washed. Portions were removed for consumption, the rest remaining in the pouch, and fresh milk added.)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by James.folsom (talk • contribs).
:G'day James, I like the edit job you've done on this article - it sorely needed it! Regarding your comment above, I've heard this particular concept put about a bit in the kefir forums, particularly by a bloke who has done a lot of (amateur) investigation into kefir, Dominic Anfiteatro. Additionally, Ed Farnworth says this in his book, Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods: "It would appear from the oral tradition of kefir that fermentation of milk in skin bags as a way of preserving milk led to the production of the first kefir grains and started the long tradition of producing kefir." Webaware talk 01:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Work it back in there somewhere then.  I honestly had never heard that in relation to kefir, but I'm not omnipotent.James.folsom 01:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Koumiss confusion

message: Hi, I was wondering if someone could explain the differences between Kefir and Kombucha (and the various other substances) mentioned in the See Also section?  Are they based on the same micro-organisms?  thanks --Tomhannen 11:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed mention of kombucha from the article, because it is quite unrelated to kefir. [[Kumis] is culturally related to kefir, as it was prepared and consumed in the same areas of Eurasia; however, it differs quite a bit in composition, with kumis relying mainly on Lactobacillus bulgaricus bacteria and Torula spp. yeasts. Water kefir or tibicos are more similar to kefir in terms of microorganism varieties, with some variance giving them better suitability to fermenting sugary water and fruit juices. Ayran and lassi are beverages prepared from yoghurt or cultured buttermilk, and are thus essentially the same as yoghurt in terms of microorganism varieties. Webaware talk 14:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  See Also section 

message: In the first paragraph of Making Kefir, the phrase "Kefir grains can be purchased or acquired from other hobbyists, see below" seems out of place... What 'other' hobbyists? And what does 'see below' mean? I couldn't find anything else related to this in the article. This seems copied from a DIY article or something similar, but I couldn't find it anywhere else on the net (maybe it's from printed media?).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielgrad (talk • contribs) 12:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  hobbyists? 

message: It seems that many kefir enthusiasts feel that true kefir cannot come from kefir starter powder, and that to create kefir, one must use existing kefir "grains" (which are not actually grains, but a microbial culture).  Does anyone know the origin of the kefir "grains"?  Is it possible to form the "grains" from scratch? This article ought to address the origin of this substance.  Photouploaded (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What is the origin of kefir "grains"?

message: Matzoon redirects to the kefir article, but based on the article, I don't think they're the same thing. Matzoon is an Armenian fermented milk. According to the recipe in Henley's Twentieth Century Formulas, matzoon starts with a bakers' yeast culture, while  Bacteria in Country Life states it has unique bacteria. In either case, the redirect should be removed. 75.57.125.155 (talk) 01:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Matzoon is not kefir

message: I was wondering about upkeep of the grains- is it possible to kill them if u do not provide food (sugars) for a long time!?!?!. Whats a reasonable time to go with out food, and optimal storage temp. Do they go bad? Is raw milk ok to use (or pros and cons or raw milk). It peak conditions (and what are they) how long can you expext a 
doubling in size (amount) of the grains. thanks. Cilstr (talk) 03:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: life cycle info

message: In there, it says that kefir is the main ingredient of the "Okroshka" - soup, while on the Okroshka page, it says that some people just like to add a spoon of kefir on top, and the primary ingredient is kvass. 84.250.37.116 (talk) 18:01, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mistake in Culinary uses - section? 

message: According to all definitions of probiotics these are well characterised strains of bacteria. Therefore a product as such can never be a probiotic, but a product may contain a probiotic. As kefir is a complex product with thousands of recepies, it can never be considered a probiotic product. Some kefir products on the market may have a probiotic strain added, so it is not impossible to have a kefir with probiotics. Any 'wild' type of kefir does contain many micro-organisms, but as is not known which are added, they can never be probiotics as the definition state that they are well defined strains with a proven health effect.
Also, a probiotic product, basically is a health claim according to EFSA, so to call something probiotic, you have to have done all kinds of clinical tests. This can never be done wioth the thousands of kefir variations that exist worldwide...Knorrepoes (talk) 15:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed 'probiotics' sentence.

message: Sometimes I need / use a lot of kefir, more than can conveniently be made in a day.  I'd like to make it ahead of time and store it up for the high-use times, but I need the active cultures in it to be alive when I serve it.  Do you know if this is possible?  I wondered if freezing it in sealed containers would work, or if it'd be better to dry it in an air dryer and then freeze the dried stuff until I need to re-constitute it for use?
98.64.76.196 (talk) 04:12, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Nothing to do with wikipedia, but see  the sections on resting and storing kefir grains here:
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html#resting-kefir-gains  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.31.36 (talk) 01:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Freezing or storing Kefir? 

message: This article doesn't do a good job at explaining exactly what kefir cultures eat. I'm understanding from the article that they eat sugar, but there seems to be a myth that they only eat lactose and this is a misunderstanding that needs to be clearly tackled.
:I hate to burst your bubble, but lactose IS sugar. It is a disaccharide, and as far as I know, the only type of sugar in milk.--75.80.43.80 (talk) 02:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: what kefir cultures eat

message: "Kefir grains contain a water-soluble polysaccharide known as kefiran, which imparts a rope-like texture and feeling in the mouth; it ranges in color from white to yellow, and may grow to the size of walnuts." Does the polysaccharide grow to the size of a walnut? or a kefir grain?  
I found the opening of the article confusing as I did not think kefir was made from grain.  The word "grain" is sort of explained later. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  what is the size of a walnut in this sentence?  

message: It would be interesting to see this article include information about kefir grains being edible or not.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.83.201.150 (talk) 17:54, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kefir grains: edible or not? 

message: I can believe that B12 is found in Kefir as B12 is known rto be made only by bacteria, but how does the cyanocobalamin form come about?? Cyanocobalamin is a synthetic form made for the "supplements" market. If it is found in Kefir, its only as an additive.207.81.0.235 (talk) 11:57, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: B12 (Cyanocobalamin) Found in Kefir??

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: From what I've read it sound like "Kefir" is soured milk aka buttermilk.  Can someone respond?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2C42:60D0:F4B9:3FED:7460:2C57 (talk) 05:11, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Question...Substitute for Kefir 

message: This line is unsupported by the cited reference: "Another study found levels of ethanol of 2.10%, 1.46% and 1.40% in cow, goat and sheep kefir, respectively."
The referenced article says: "Kefir has been reported to contain 1.98 g/L of CO2, 0.48% alcohol, and the amount of CO2 increased (201.7–277.0 mL/L) with raised inoculation ratio of grains (1–10%) (Arslan, 2014)".
I don't know where the "0.48%" value comes from, but it's not from "Arslan, 2014" where it says "Traditional kefir made from caprine milk was found to have a low viscosity and sensory properties unlike those of bovine kefir and contained 0.04–0.3% ethanol (Sarkar, 2008). Tratnik et al. (2006) found that the ethanol content in bovine and caprine kefir enriched with whey protein concentrate was 0.32 and 0.35%, respectively." --Stefantalpalaru (talk) 18:24, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Alcohol content 

message: This article http://www.elbrusoid.org/articles/poznat/387255/ seems to imply that kefir and bulgama (kruchenki) are both considered types of ayran in Karachai. Is that right?   Pelagic ( messages ) – (16:07 Sat 23, AEDT) 05:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text:  Traditionally, the Karachays produced different types of ayran. At the moment, the most common options are thick ayran, gıpı ayran (kefir), refreshing and quenching suwsab (thick ayran and sparkling mineral water). But in the Russian Empire, gıpı ayran (kefir) was most popular. It was the most valuable, and its grains traditionally could not be shared. Gıpı ayran is one of the variations of thick ayran, and the most difficult to manufacture. It is because of the long manufacturing process that it was considered valuable and possibly distributed around the world more than other types of Karachai ayran. By the way, we call kefir simply gıpı ayran, that is, a variation of ayran cooked in a special way with gıpı grains. But old people say that before kefir or gıpı was much more tastier, but now the method of its production is greatly simplified. At the moment gıpı ayran (kefir) and ordinary thick ayran are the most popular types of ayran in Karachay and Balkaria, Karachay-Balkarians greet any guest with a large bowl of delicious homemade ayran, gıpı (kefir) or thick ayran, it does not matter. Karachays don't even have a day without ayran, you might think that they drink it in liters every day. Basically, we are very proud of our traditional beverage ayran and even have a holiday- the Day of Ayran. I have seen no Karachay-Balkar table with no ayran or gıpı ayran (kefir). Fael Daug Alan (talk) 11:40, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Fael, that’s interesting to learn. I'd never even heard of Karachays nor ayran before today.  I wish that I could drink litres of gıpı ayran daily like a true Karachay (is it spelled gypy if transliterating from Cyrillic?), but here in Australia, commercial "kefir" is expensive, around 7x to 8x the price of plain cow's milk.  And as you say, they probably simplify the fermentation for commercial production.  There is one company here that makes filmjölk, which I find  similar in taste to gıpı ayran / kefir. I like the ones that are slightly fizzy on the tongue, I guess normal thick ayran without the mineral water has no fizz? Pelagic ( messages ) – (23:55 Sat 23, AEDT) 12:55, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Pelagic, now you know about our people and our fermented milk drinks. We are always glad to have guests and are waiting for you at our place. Here you can taste our national dishes and drink gıpı or ayran (pronounced gypy / гыпы or gyfy / гыфы). After that you will definitely become a Karachay) If ayran or kefir is well-aged, they become sour and there may be sizzling bubbles on the tongue. We also have a separate name for it, küşlü ayran / кюшлю айран, by the way, in this form it contains a little alcohol. I have talked about Filmjölk with one Swede, I never got a chance to try it then, since it is not available in Russia, but judging by the description, it is really similar to kefir. Fael Daug Alan (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Type of Ayran? 

message: Current source has kundeps in Turkish transliteration; @Adigabrek has used spelling qundeps with the edit summary 'Replaced ... with the one used in the wikipedia page "Adyghe language".' Fair enough on the k–q distinction, but I’m having difficulty with the vowels. Adyghe language says there are only three vowel sounds [aː] [a] [ə] represented by а э ы / a ə ı.  For dipthongs [ja] and [aj], ⟨е⟩ is listed as Cyrillic and the Latin equivalent is listed as ⟨é⟩. The letter y / w / u is listed with pronunciation [w] or [əw], but with a note "the letter ⟨ы⟩ [ə] is not written after a ⟨у⟩ [w], ... унэ [wəna] 'house' instead of уынэ".  So what should the spelling be?
кьуидепс = qundéps = [qwəndajps]
кьуидэпс = qundəps = [qwəndaps]
Cheers,  Pelagic ( messages ) – (09:16 Sun 24, AEDT) 22:16, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Къундэпс = qundəps seems to be the most accurate. Thanks for noticing it. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact  11:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for clarifying, @Adigabrek, I’ve added it in brackets (and I see that I used the wrong ь vs. ъ). I was going to leave kundeps in the text and put qundəps in brackets as part of the lang-ady template, but since the main text has already been updated to qundəps, I instead mentioned kundeps spelling in the footnote.  I’m not strongly attached to one approach over the other.   Pelagic ( messages ) – (06:27 Mon 25, AEDT) 19:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling in Circassian 

message: I am an administrator and will not be expressing any opinions about any aspect of the content dispute itself. Please be aware that is an article about a dairy food item consumed worldwide. This is not an article where any form of nationalistic POV pushing will be tolerated. None whatsoever. Every edit to this talk page or the article itself must be in the spirit of consensus and developing a stable and neutral article. So be warned: Nationalistic POV pushers will be blocked if they persist. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:13, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Cullen328. — Pelagic ( messages ) – (01:47 Sat 30, AEDT) 14:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Can you help me in cleaning the POV added by the karachay user? Some people tried it already but were instantly reverted it seems people who know nothing about the article come here to revert random edits. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact  09:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Warning to all involved editors 

message: === Move some origin detail from lead section to body ===
Intention: move "".
Current in lead
Proposed in lead
Current in body
Moved to body
The duplication in those two sentences could be tidied later, or you can hash out the wording here. For example:
Pelagic ( messages ) – (16:45 Sat 30, AEDT) 05:45, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed changes 

message: Intention: move "".
Current in lead
Proposed in lead
Current in body
Moved to body
The duplication in those two sentences could be tidied later, or you can hash out the wording here. For example:
Pelagic ( messages ) – (16:45 Sat 30, AEDT) 05:45, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move some origin detail from lead section to body 

message: Section is fairly long, and a separate heading for "Names and Etymology" would keep those paragraphs focused. Pelagic ( messages ) – (16:45 Sat 30, AEDT) 05:45, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split Etymology section from Origins 

message: In the first line of Origin and etymology line;
"and comes ultimately from Persian (کف, kaf) or Kurdish (kef) meaning foam or bubbles, or possibly Old Turkic köpür '(milk) froth, foam' and köpürmäk 'to froth'."
should be changed to
"and comes possibly from Old Turkic köpür '(milk) froth, foam' and köpürmäk 'to froth'."
Reference doesn't mention Persian or Kurdish Khorheal (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced text 

message: I've not spent too much time trying to figure out the dispute, but the material  should not have been added to the lede to start. I assume that the references used were inappropriate for WP:MEDRS info. --Hipal (talk) 21:29, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Health benefits added to lede