Talk:Ahmed Khadr

message: Wanted to address some recent changes, because while the family may dispute them - I'd be interested in why they were removed entirely.
::In 2001, Khadr and his family attended the wedding of bin Laden's son, Muhammad, a friendly gesture which bin Laden reciprocated when he later attended the wedding of Khadr's daughter Zaynab. - all sources indicate this is true, no? In fact it gets mentioned often, whenever the papers talk about the Khadrs - I can't think of any reason we shouldn't explain the incident.
::Khadr was killed in South Waziristan on 2 October 2003 when the Pakistani army launched a counter-terrorism operation against the East Turkestan Islamic Movement's presence on the Afghan border. - right now has been reduced to the place and date, I think the context is important - even if the wording is fixed, so that readers know if he was shot, killed by a bomb being dropped on a house, run over by a truck, killed by a criminal, by an army, etc.
::"an associate of Osama bin Laden", while I agree "terrorist leader" might be disputed or incorrect - isn't it fair to address the fact that the Khadr family *were* associates of bin Laden? We wouldn't have an article on this man if he were just a computer engineer in an NGO, he is notable and newsworthy because of his connection to UBL.
::In addition, the section on the Mahdi Army I believe should be left in, though perhaps re-worded. It is important that the information exists, even if it is simply "fear-mongering" or "jumping to conclusions" by the National Post - we should still say that the National Post reported it, not that it's true.
Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  01:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, well I think it's important to address the points the media accuses, even if it's to say "The National Post reported that..., a charge which is disputed by the family who point out that...".  People come to the article because they've heard the charges in the media, so if there's absolutely no mention here, they'll assume the article is either incomplete or whitewashed - it is much better to address each point the media has levelled against the family. As for the firefight, was it the Pakistani Army? ISI? Unknown? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  23:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well I guess you have a point, I don't like all the lies and I can't respond to all of them, but I'd like to see thier sources first. As for the firefight, it was the Pakistani army + personal from the US army, I remember my brother Abdulkareem clearly saying he could see and hear some Americans.
(Zaynab Khadr 15:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Recent changes

message: http://clearinghouse.infovlad.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=457&stc=1&d=1200652963
From around 1999. Anybody recognize the signature?
209.121.88.198 (talk) 10:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Letter by A.S. Khadr? 

message: This article (admittedly quite biased) alleges that the Sudanese Zawahiri-follower involved with the Embassy Bombing and living with the Khadr family at the time he purchased a truck used in the bombing...was actually either a "suitor" or married to Zaynab at the time. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  22:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: HCI/Sudan/Truck

message: Michael Scheuer's book "Through Our Enemy's Eyes" (pp. 217) lists an "August 29, 2000" arrest of ASK by ISI forces in relation to the embassy bombing. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead)  20:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Discrepency

message: 1.  	 Preview (Abstract/Citation)   	 Full Text (No Photos)   	 Chretien questions Bhutto about jailed Canadian : Khadr, an aid worker, is suspected of bombings
Bob Cox; The Record; Jan 15, 1996; pg. B.3;
2. 	Preview (Abstract/Citation) 	Full Text (No Photos) 	Canadian charged in bomb attack
By Theresa Boyle Toronto Star; Toronto Star; Jan 5, 1996; pg. A.20;
3. 	Preview (Abstract/Citation) 	Full Text (No Photos) 	Bombing suspect pins `last hope' on Chretien `I am a hostage,' Canadian held in Pakistan attack tells The Star
By Michelle Huang SPECIAL TO THE STAR; Toronto Star; Dec 30, 1995; pg. A.1;
4. 	Preview (Abstract/Citation) 	Full Text (No Photos) 	Ontario man said to be only bombing suspect
Toronto Star; Dec 18, 1995; pg. A.13;
5. 	Preview (Abstract/Citation) 	Full Text (No Photos) 	Canadian held in Pakistan bombing Relief worker arrested after blast kills 16 at Egyptian embassy
By Theresa Boyle Toronto Star; Toronto Star; Dec 15, 1995; pg. A.1;
6. 	Preview (Abstract/Citation) 	Full Text (No Photos) 	WORLD DIGEST
The Hamilton Spectator; May 4, 1992; pg. A.3;
7. 	Preview (Abstract/Citation) 	Full Text (No Photos) 	Worker seeks aid for Afghan kids
Bill Taylor Toronto Star; Toronto Star; Oct 10, 1989; pg. A.2;
8. 	Preview (Abstract/Citation) 	Full Text (No Photos) 	'Pretty toys' maiming Afghan kids Soviet troops disguise mines Canadian says
Jack Cahill Toronto Star; Toronto Star; Sep 25, 1986; pg. A.15;
Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  22:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: arts

message: "On August 29 [2000] Pakistani security officials arrested Abdel Rahman al-Kanadi for his role in the EIJ's 1995 bombing of Egypt's embassy in Pakistan. When arrested, al-Kanadi carried a Canadian passport and was chief of the NGO Human Concern International's office in Peshawar. Mahjub and al-Kanadi are being held pending possible extradition to Egypt", excerpted from Michael Scheuer's "Through Our Enemies' Eyes" (page 217)...seems to be rubbish. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  01:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Errors of fact

message: Hasan Mahsum may have also been killed in the attack Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  07:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Random leads

message: * working on GA review here
* Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 01:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: * After a couple of days of thought, I have reluctantly decided to fail the GA nom, further comments here. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 06:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  GA Fail 

message: On page 66, Ghost Plane mistakenly identifies ASK as a "Syrian-Canadian". Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  07:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Errors

message: This is one of the poorest and most tedious of the Wikipedia introductions I have ever read on Wikipedia and contains so much unnecessary information, whereas an introduction should be basic resumé of an individual. This introduction deserves a complete rewrite concentrating on just who Ahmed Said Khadr is. As for pro and con subjective ideas, for example whether he liked or disliked Canada and what politicians thought about him is totally out of place. Proabbly these can be discussed further down I guess. werldwayd (talk) 03:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried to clean it up some - but I think the fact his "legacy" is hotly disputed in Canada - which is all he's really known for, that he is a hot-button issue,  has to be dealt with on some level. Let me know what else needs cleaning up, btw use  in the future for this kind of thing - it's more specific for uninvolved readers to come contribute and help. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  04:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Ideally an introduction should be a resume of the individual with a minimum of quotations and subjective opinions, or references to substantiate these allegations or defense of the individual. The ontro spends too much time on alleged opinions, and totally loses th focus it needs to have, whereas his body of work as well as his death in a firefight get just a vague and almost insignificant one or two sentences. I simply don't have the time to do this immense work myself on this page. I sympathized so much with his son Abdulkareem Khadr who I saw in one of the rallies when he came in his wheelchair to take part in a rally for his detained brother's defense and expressed. So I exprssed a kind word or two to him personally, and that's the reason I wanted to clean-up his page to make it real worthy of this fine young gentleman that I saw. This seemed to have angered you based on your message on my page after just a few necessary edits and removal of what I thought was an insignificant rabit story that didn't stick and had no relevance whatsoever, or so I thought. I can just imagine what would happen if I tried to clean-up this particular article that is hundred times more complex and thorny than that one which was just straightforward really. So I express my misgivings of how stuffed this article is. How much stuffed? Take this single fact in "His Charitable Works" section: Quote: Around 1990, Ahmed found The Adventures of Tintin, a favourite book of his childhood, at an Islamabad marketplace and purchased it for his children.[16] Unquote... So? He bought a book in a marketplace. What does it have to do with his charity work, where this utterly out-of-the-blue sentence is inserted. Just how signifucant its purchase is for the Khadr story? I digress.. and leave it to more patient editors to tackle it so that it becomes worthy of a true encyclopedic and neutral article that it should be werldwayd (talk) 06:14, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the problem with removing large chunks, for example the rabbit story on Abdulkareem's page, is that it leaves only the "negative" aspects - for example you proposed that we should change (paraphrase) "as a child, Abdulkareem once hung off the leg of Zawahiri, begging him to play with him and let him touch his gun" to "Abdulkareem has met the leaders of al-Qaeda" - see how it suddenly got much more sinister? If we are writing a biography of a person, why are we including the fact "He hated Jews" but leaving out the fact "He was drawn towards Buddhism in his later years" - is it relevant to understanding somebody to know which religion he died? Yet we err on the side of providing too much detail, rather than too little - so long as the extraneous information we are leaving in does not represent libel, fringe theories or contain specific harm. Is Ahmed Khadr's favourite childhood book relevant? As relevant as his meeting Zawahiri as the two volunteered as the same charity hospital? They weren't meeting to swap ideas for killing puppies, they were just volunteering at the same local hospital - is it relevant who else he met there? Most, if not all, of what exists about Khadr is innuendo - "he was a close friend of X" - how close is close? Should this article clarify how he knew these people, or just say "He was friends with Zawahiri"? It seems to me better to always give the exact information (for example, "He worked in the same hospital as Zawahiri") and let readers draw their own conclusions whether they were friends, colleagues, comrades or buddies - rather than saying "He was friends/colleagues/comrades/buddies with al-Qaeda leaders".  If you can make a list of the words in the article you find objectionable, we can start examining each one, see which ones should truly be tossed and replaced. Thank you. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  06:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Introduction

message: I think this has been mentioned before, but the introduction is far too lengthy. I think two paragraphs would suffice - can we not incorporate the other two into the text somehow? The fourth paragraph is particularly important and needs to be retained, but I question the necessity of the third - it's essentially made up of material from elsewhere in the article - how much do we really need to reveal about him initially? Are there guidelines or policies pertinent to this? 
Also, it appears that a large proportion of data about his early life is sourved from only one (or at the most, two) different locations. In fact, the entirety of the "early life" section has only ONE source for its extremely comprehensive biography. I presume this kind of information is quite difficult to find - even online - but does anyone know of any other reliable sources we could use? I'm probably just being pedantic. I'm new here - at least, new to editing - so I'm just trying to get into the spirit of things! :)
ALSO, pt ii: I ALSO feel there's a lot of extraneous material here. Is the following:
"Around 1990, Ahmed found The Adventures of Tintin, a favourite book of his childhood, at an Islamabad marketplace and purchased it for his children."
...really something that belongs on Wikipedia? I mean, it's highly unlikely anyone who might come across this page would know the man personally, so superficial litlte "tidbits" like this are really pretty useless. Someone want to join me in cleaning this place up? Just contact me on my talk page, yeah? Don't worry about being "too late", I'll be at uni for the next 4-5 years so I'll be visiting this site regularly. Cheers :D Psychonavigation (talk) 03:42, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a mirror of the Wikipedia article on Abdurahman Khadr, written by the same authors who wrote this article. It's not about Ahmed at all. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead)  03:55, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean-up, re-write, etc etc. 

message: Ahmad Khedr Al-Bakshi (1991-10-22)
Is a junior student at KFUPM - CIM. 
:***Copyright to King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, Collage of Industrial Management***Bold text  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmad412 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Inappropriate digression - this article is not the place to promote his management theories and career. Delete irrelevant content.Parkwells (talk) 14:58, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ahmad Khedr Al-Bagshi أحمد خضر البقشي 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Ahmed Khadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110518180139/http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20060807_131499_131499&source=srch to http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20060807_131499_131499&source=srch
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080710141650/http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA33/036/2006/en/dom-ASA330362006en.pdf to http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA33/036/2006/en/dom-ASA330362006en.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:13, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Ahmed Khadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/rss/Jaballah.pdf
*Added  tag to http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/rss/Jaballah.pdf
*Added  tag to http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=b7775ee3-cd2c-45d1-b679-d502c12c24cf&k=84700
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080420090900/http://www.al-vefagh.com/1384/841204/html/doliat.htm to http://www.al-vefagh.com/1384/841204/html/doliat.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:17, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Ahmed Khadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060503082213/http://action.web.ca/home/sap/media.shtml?x=57414 to http://action.web.ca/home/sap/media.shtml?x=57414
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090305181449/http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/Harkat2005_12_30_DenyingBail.pdf to http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/Harkat2005_12_30_DenyingBail.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090305181446/http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/U.S._v_Khadr_FBIAff.pdf to http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/U.S._v_Khadr_FBIAff.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:10, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Ahmed Khadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040705074630/http://humanconcern.org/continent.php?area=south_asia to http://www.humanconcern.org/continent.php?area=south_asia
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120217184221/http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/9/19/132229.shtml to http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/9/19/132229.shtml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110827032150/http://gazette.gc.ca/archives/p1/2005/2005-01-15/pdf/g1-13903.pdf to http://www.gazette.gc.ca/archives/p1/2005/2005-01-15/pdf/g1-13903.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110714090805/http://www.middleeasttransparent.com/old/texts/Khadr_Abdelrahman.htm to http://www.middleeasttransparent.com/old/texts/Khadr_Abdelrahman.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://amarillo.com/stories/2002/04/28/usn_dangerous.shtml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929104547/http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=282604a0-659a-48f0-9465-4bf832982482&k=98244 to http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=282604a0-659a-48f0-9465-4bf832982482&k=98244
*Added  tag to http://www.presidentofpakistan.gov.pk/NewsEventsDetail.aspx?NewsEventID=1547
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:15, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Ahmed Khadr. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added  tag to https://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060519.JABALLAH19/TPStory/National
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110606161910/http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar%2FLayout%2FArticle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147946468247&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467 to https://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar%2FLayout%2FArticle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147946468247&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170103003243/http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3522572 to http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3522572
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:24, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The lead section of this article contains questionable assertions.  
===Relying on the Canadian Free Press===
 
The third paragraph of the lead section currently states: "The Canadian government had considered him to be that country's highest-ranking member of al-Qaeda." The reference to this assertion, however, is not to a Canadian goverment site, it is to  the Canadian Free Press.  As references go, the Canadian Free Press is relatively reckless.   Is it too biased to be used as a reference?  In my opinion, no, provided it is properly attributed.
Now the 4th paragraph of the Canadian Free Press article says: "Her father, the late ahmed Said Khadr, officially identified as Canada's highest-ranking member of al Qaeda, was sprung from a Pakistani prison when former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien successfully intervened on his behalf through then Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto."
Well, how trustworthy is this paragraph?  The second half, that claims "was sprung from a Pakistani prison when former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien successfully intervened on his behalf" -- this is frequently repeated on anti-muslim hate sites.  It isn't true.  Chretien did bring up Khadr's detetion with the Pakistani PM.  This is something he had an absolute obligation to do, under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Canadian citizens are entitled to a fair trial, when charged with a crime, in Canada.  And Canada has reciprocal agreements with most countries, including Pakistan, that we will give their citizens fair trials, and they will give Canadians fair trials.  There is no reason to doubt Chretien's account.  What Chretien said he said was (quoting from memory): "Please comply with the rule of law.  Don't hold a Canadian citizen in extrajudicial detention.  If you have evidence he committed a crime, by all means lay charges against him, give him a fair trial, and, if he is convicted, give him a prison sentence.  But, if you don't have evidence he committed a crime, you should let him go."
If Bhutto's Government didn't charge him, didn't try him, and instead, let him go, I suggest this should be interpreted as a sign Pakistani Justice officials had not been able to assemble a case against Khadr, even though they had held him for a year, and had all that time to gather evidence.  The shocking right-wing claim that Chretien would intervene for someone he knew or suspected was a terrorist -- why would he do that?
Given that the CFP got the Chretien part totally wrong I suggest we not trust their assertion that he had been "officially identified" as a member of al Qaeda.
I am going to wait a reasonable period of time, for comments, and then rewrite that passage.  Geo Swan (talk) 00:21, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Questionable assertions

message: The third paragraph of the lead section currently states: "The Canadian government had considered him to be that country's highest-ranking member of al-Qaeda." The reference to this assertion, however, is not to a Canadian goverment site, it is to  the Canadian Free Press.  As references go, the Canadian Free Press is relatively reckless.   Is it too biased to be used as a reference?  In my opinion, no, provided it is properly attributed.
Now the 4th paragraph of the Canadian Free Press article says: "Her father, the late ahmed Said Khadr, officially identified as Canada's highest-ranking member of al Qaeda, was sprung from a Pakistani prison when former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien successfully intervened on his behalf through then Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto."
Well, how trustworthy is this paragraph?  The second half, that claims "was sprung from a Pakistani prison when former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien successfully intervened on his behalf" -- this is frequently repeated on anti-muslim hate sites.  It isn't true.  Chretien did bring up Khadr's detetion with the Pakistani PM.  This is something he had an absolute obligation to do, under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Canadian citizens are entitled to a fair trial, when charged with a crime, in Canada.  And Canada has reciprocal agreements with most countries, including Pakistan, that we will give their citizens fair trials, and they will give Canadians fair trials.  There is no reason to doubt Chretien's account.  What Chretien said he said was (quoting from memory): "Please comply with the rule of law.  Don't hold a Canadian citizen in extrajudicial detention.  If you have evidence he committed a crime, by all means lay charges against him, give him a fair trial, and, if he is convicted, give him a prison sentence.  But, if you don't have evidence he committed a crime, you should let him go."
If Bhutto's Government didn't charge him, didn't try him, and instead, let him go, I suggest this should be interpreted as a sign Pakistani Justice officials had not been able to assemble a case against Khadr, even though they had held him for a year, and had all that time to gather evidence.  The shocking right-wing claim that Chretien would intervene for someone he knew or suspected was a terrorist -- why would he do that?
Given that the CFP got the Chretien part totally wrong I suggest we not trust their assertion that he had been "officially identified" as a member of al Qaeda.
I am going to wait a reasonable period of time, for comments, and then rewrite that passage.  Geo Swan (talk) 00:21, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Relying on the Canadian Free Press

message: The lead described Khadr as an Egyptian citizen.  We saw the same thing with Ben Johnson, a Canadian who was born in Jamaica.  When he was likely to win an Olympic medal, Canadian sources described him as a Canadian.  A couple of days after he won his Olympic Gold Medal, those same newspapers who were happy to pump up National pride by calling him a Canadian, started, instead, to call him a Jamaican.
Khadr was born in Egypt, grew up in Egypt, but came to Canada to go to University, married a Canadian citizen, and became a Canadian citizen himself.  He spent almost his entire adult life as a Canadian.  In Afghanistan he was widely known as al Kanadi, ie. "the Canadian", not al Masri, "the Egyptian".
I also amended a passage that said, without attribution, that he had ties with terrorism.  When I first started contributing to the wikipedia there was an excellent wikidocument on how to contribute material, without bias, offered the example of a passage like "Hitler was evil".  It explained that even an opinion like that, almost universally shared, should be attributed.  It should instead say something like, "Philosopher Hannah Arendt, the author of The banality of evil, said Hitler was evil."
So, I amended that as well.  Geo Swan (talk) 00:34, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  distancing