Talk:Swedish–Novgorodian Wars

message: Article claims that Novgorodians made pirate attacks to Sweden. Is this actually confirmed by Russian chronicles? According to my knowledge, the Swedish sources do not suggest it. Somebody looted and burned Sigtuna in 1187, but the original sources claim that it was a deed of the "heathen". It is difficult to know who these heathen were, but in the context of the late 12th century, Estonians or Couronians from Latvia would be suitable alternatives. A 14th century Swedish source attributes the raid to Karelians, in alliance with Novgorod, but this is too late to be certain. It might have been influenced by the conquest of Western Karelia by the Swedes and the current war against Novgorod. 
Nowadays nationalists in Finland, Estonia, Latvia and possibly in Russia as well are convinced that the Sigtuna raid was done by their "ancestors". A ridiculous example of the silly wish to get political profit from an obscure historical event!
I am also sceptical of the claim that the increasing trade if the White Sea influenced the Russo-Swedish wars of the 15th century. As far as I know, the Swedes made no attempt to gain any foothold on the White Sea during those wars! These kind of attempts belonged to later history.217.112.242.181 19:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  1187 Karelian vassals of Novgorod attacked the swedish region of Melar  (it referenced to First Novgorod Annal) and possibly Sigtuna. But Swedes earlier attacked the areas controlled by Novgorodians in southern Finland and Karelia in 1142 and 1156-57 (during the first Swedish Crusade in Finland) Ben-Velvel 00:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some problematic things 

message: All claims that Novgorod controlled Southern Finland are pure nonsense. There is not a single document of this unbelievable claim. Nor did the Novgorodians had any control over whole Estonia. The Gulf of Finland was never, up to 1478, controlled by Novgorod Commercial Republic. An classic example of new-written history.
And the claim that in mediveal Finnish towns most people spoked German goes to same category.
All Russian "documents" of that period are exaggerated folklores, nothing else.
Peharps it is good to remember that Suomi was inhabited country much before the Vikings entered
into scene. Before 1100 there was no connections to Big-Russian (Eastern Slav) tribes at all
in the Gulf of Finland area. Ingermanland was inhabited by Inkerikot (Izhoras) not Slavs.
Germans. Prussians, Lihuanians, Latvians, Livonians, Estonians and Finns effectively closed
Baltic Sea from Slav tribes and the natural linguistic water shed goes from Ingermanland to Piepsen Lake, to Väinäjoki (Daugava River) and then toward East Prussia. The most western outpost of Slavonic population was around Pskov (Pihkva / Pihkova / Pleskau / Pleskavas / Tolovas) where there was,as can see from many names for that place, a mixed population as well as in medeveal Novgorod. It was not a pure Russian town at all. The population was a colourful mixture of Russians, Poles, Polovitshes, Latvians, Estonians, Finns, Karelians and Swedes (Rootshis) in addition to Juuttis (Danes).
Peharps a little better study to the area´s history. Eesti Entsyklopedia Tallinn 1932-1938 is
a good source to find more information as well as Iso Tietosanakirja Helsinki 1936.
The first version of Pieni Tietosanakirja 1925-1929 is also published in Finnish web sides.
Torg is not original Russian word. Torg appear in Estonian language meaning (market) square. Turku seems to came from ancient Wendi language.
Also Germany is in Finnish language Saksa as well as in Estonian language. This means connections to Saxony and Wendes. The Hanseatic traders were called in Finland "kauppasaksat".
"Hansat" or "hansakauppiaat" become much later in use in Finnish language.
JN
:I don't see the article claiming that Novgorod would have controlled Southern Finland nor Estonia. --Drieakko 14:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Novgorod and Southern Finland 

message: This article is OK but it has to be improved to become a GA. Some of the points that need to be addressed are:
*I think that the Battle of Neva section needs to be expanded.
*I also think that the intoduction needs to be expanded.
*Overall the article lacks inline citations and also needs references to be put down.
Hopefully you achieve this and if you do I will pass the article. Good luck. Kyriakos 14:18, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GAC on hold

message: Good luck on the GA review. One thing I quickly noticed, though - can someone correct the piped link Ladoga, as it is unclear whether you mean the lake or a town.--Estrellador* 10:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Small point 

message: Sorry, but in the last week the article has failed to show any signs on improvement. This I am forced to fail it. But if these points are addressed, please put it forward for another GAC. Kyriakos 23:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: GAC failed

message: The conduct of presenting a Swedish place name as primary and having the Finnish=English names in brackets is unnecessary. Places that still exist (especially when the majority language place name has remained unchanged throughout history) should still be named accoring to current policies. We don't call London Londinium even if we speak about London's Roman period. In the same way it is unnecesary to speak about anything other than e.g. Turku's Swedish period (and have perhaps the secondary language place name in brackets). Clarifer (talk) 14:50, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Toponyms of Finland]]