Talk:Shopi

message: This is a quotation of the article introduction section: "This article is about the Shopi in Bulgaria. The name Šopi is also used for ethnographic groups in Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia, which are not treated here." - so my question is: if these etnographic groups in Serbia and Macedonia are not covered by this article, by which article are they covered and where can I (or any other user) write about them? Should we then consider renaming this article to "Shopi in Bulgaria" and creating another one named "Shopi" where we can write about entire Shopi population in all 3 countries? PANONIAN 09:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it means, as obvious, that the article does not contain info about the shopi outside Bulgaria. If the info in question gets into the article, the sentence in the lead should be removed. --Laveol T 12:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

text: I'd have nothing against that, provided that one condition is met: are the Shopi in Bulgaria, Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia a related ethnographic group? Do they share a common origin, customs, dialectal traits, etc.? The article currently is very in-depth on the Shopi of Bulgaria and their dialect and culture, I'm not willing to lose this. Todor→Bozhinov 12:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

text: All Shopi do share same origin, but, no matter of the existence of some sources that you mentioned that describe them as Bulgarians, there are other sources that describe them as unique Slavic population of central Balkans that adopted Bulgarian, Macedonian and Serb national consciousness in recent times. So, as I see it, this article should describe entire Shopi population with all opinions about their origin. By some opinions, Shopi are of same origin as Torlaks, and thus, different sources mention different borders between Shopi and Torlaks populations, for example, map of Shopluk that I made according to the map created by Serbian geographer Jovan Cvijić include some parts of Serbia and Macedonia into Shopluk, while other sources claim that these areas are inhabited by speakers of Torlakian or Macedonian. All these opinions about origin of Shopi and about borders of Shopluk region should be mentioned here. PANONIAN 22:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Please provide these sources....I mean sources that could lead to the assumption that this is another ethnos... If such a statement is true, then there should be evidences going through the different time periods.. please provide such from medieval times, from ottoman times and after that. I am sorry about my scepticism, but i have never met such ones and that is why I am astonished by this comment. I understand the serbian point of view, but many (not all of them of course) of the serbian scholars are lead by the "Piemonte of the Balkans" political doctrine. They present the different ethnogeographical parts as different ethnoses that should be united by the serbs... So, please provide with the needed sources... There is not argue about the fact that representatives of the "shopi" group nowadays has serbian, macedonian and bulgarian national feeling. Please show this documents and historical evidences... I am particularly interested in them  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.90.0.97 (talk) 13:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Subject of this article

message: how can a shop be a serbian or bulgarian? it is newer cathegory. it's like calling a mayan, cheyeni, toltec etc. indians. or gheg, tosk, gorani, shkreti etc. albanians. it's a newer cathegory that didn't exist before.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.225.8 (talk) 16:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: shopi are shopi

message: Shoppe as mentioned here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bistritsa_Babi
: They are known for their use of shoppe polyphony, costuming, dancing in a ring (horo), and performing the lazarouvane (the girls' springtime initiation ritual). In 2005 they were included in UNESCO List of Intangible Cultural Heritage elements in Eastern Europe.
: Any ideas? Kortoso (talk) 16:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Same as Shoppe? 

message: The British William Macmichael spent the years from 1811 to 1817 visiting Bulgaria, Greece, Palestine, Romania, Russia and Turkey after gaining a Radcliffe traveling fellowship. In his book „Journey from Moscow to Constantinople, in years 1817,1818.“, William Macmichael describes the inhabitants and the language of Moesia, territory that includes much of today's Serbia(without Vojvodina), Northern Bulgaria, Western Bulgaria and the northern parts of the modern Republic of Macedonia:
"The native Christian inhabitans of this country antiently known by the name of Moesia, but now divided into two districts, denominated Servia and Bulgaria, are collectively called Serbiani, and speak the Slavonian language; for the original Bulgarians were a Tartar people, who came in the fifth century from the banks of the Volga, and successively adopted Slavonian dialect of their new countrymen the Servians, retaining only a few words of their former language." Journey from Moscow to Constantinople, in years 1817,1818; pages 132, 133.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srpski Patriotizam (talk • contribs) 19:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: User:Srpski Patriotizam, can you please defend your position with some arguments? Why do you think this quote, which makes no mention of the Shopi, belongs in the article? Do you believe this British doctor's travel account is particularly relevant just because he was unable to tell Bulgarians from Serbs and believed the Bulgars got their language from the Serbs? Don't you think the lack of factual accuracy (too good to be true, no?) and the lack of connection to the article's topic make this quote irrelevant here? Thanks!  — Toдor Boжinov — 08:10, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  It also can be said for the written work of Jérôme-Adolphe Blanqui(„Voyage en Bulgarie pendant l'année 1841“ ), but you have a double standard, so that the article is not neutral. British doctor precisely describe the country of Moesia(includes the whole Shopluk area), its inhabitants, and the language that they speak.  Srpski Patriotizam (talk) 23:45, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  William Macmichael about Shopi 

message: :  User:Srpski Patriotizam, can you please defend your position with some arguments? Why do you think this quote, which makes no mention of the Shopi, belongs in the article? Do you believe this British doctor's travel account is particularly relevant just because he was unable to tell Bulgarians from Serbs and believed the Bulgars got their language from the Serbs? Don't you think the lack of factual accuracy (too good to be true, no?) and the lack of connection to the article's topic make this quote irrelevant here? Thanks!  — Toдor Boжinov — 08:10, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  It also can be said for the written work of Jérôme-Adolphe Blanqui(„Voyage en Bulgarie pendant l'année 1841“ ), but you have a double standard, so that the article is not neutral. British doctor precisely describe the country of Moesia(includes the whole Shopluk area), its inhabitants, and the language that they speak.  Srpski Patriotizam (talk) 23:45, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: footnotes

message: The Bulgarians' opinion about the Shopi cited by Prof. Carlile Aylmer Macartney has been repeatedly deleted. He was married in 1923 Nedelya Mamacheva, who was the daughter of a Bulgarian army colonel and lived for a short time in Bulgaria. His opinion has been cited by Prof. David Marshall Lang in his book The Bulgarians: from pagan times to the Ottoman conquest. This book is a secondary source published several times, including by Academic publishing houses as Westview Press. Lang was a Professor at the University of London, specialized in Bulgarian history. There is a positive Review of that book by George P. Majeska on the American Historical Review, Volume 84, Issue 1, 1 February 1979, Pages 140–141, https://doi.org/10.1086/ahr/84.1.140-a. Why is that info constantly deleted? Jingiby (talk) 09:40, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Carlile Aylmer Macartney about the Shopi