Talk:Nair/Archive 1

message: The material refered as copyrighted is quoted from public domain work by Dr B Nair and is not subject to copyright. Thanks
:In this case you may restore the text, but you must indicate source and the fact that it is public domain. Otherwise someone else may remove it. Mikkalai 05:26, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: By the way, please do not interfere with votes for deletion. Please read wikipedia policies. You may be blocked from editing for destructive actions. Mikkalai 05:26, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

message: Just recently, I created an article titled "List of Nair Tharavadus". 
The article "List of Nair Tharavadus" is designed as a list for past and present nair tharavadus in Kerala. Assistance will be required by Wikipedia Users to help expand this list. The tharavadu listing is currently split in roughly district/ major city subheadings. In time, as the list grows, the sub-headings can be further refined, and new articles can be created for example "Nair tharavdus in Kasaragod". Furthermore, the links for articles of each tharavadu can be created in due course, providing information about the tharavadus history, origin, location, etc. 
In this way Wikipedia can become a mine of information for individuals who seek to learn more about the nair heritage. 
It must also be kept in mind that Wikipedia is a universal online encyclopedia, and as such, the material provided must be relevant and accurate.
NOTE: It would be much appreciated if the tharavadus listed are in fact nair tharavadus, as it has been known for families in the past to adopt the surname "Nair" even though they are not of nair caste.
Please help to update and add new tharavadus to the list. 
Thankyou
Kshatriya knight 06:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "[[List of Nair Tharavadus]]" Link

message: The Nair community played a frontal role in the area of the emancipation of lower castes, most notably for the policy allowing all Hindus access to temples. Could somebody please chip in with details on this? I don't think the material would be difficult to find. --Lettherebelight 14:01, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Nair Community's Role in Caste Emancipation

message: I couldn't find any basis for this theory. The text also talks about a war between the "Northern" and "Southern" kingdoms in Kerala (as two separate kingdoms). There has never been such a classification. The kingdoms that ruled Kerala (around the sangam age) were the Ays, Cheras and Cholas. There has been no record of any kingdom "importing" people from Orissa. Also, it seems highly unlikely - why would they want to go all the way to Orissa? What connection did they have with Orissa? Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 23:19, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nairs brought to Kerala from Orissa 

message: I couldn't find any documentation to prove/disprove that Nairs were originally Vegetarian. It's true that many Nair families were/are vegetarian, but some say that Nairs were originally non-vegetarian and became vegetarian after the arrival of Brahmins. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 02:53, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vegetarian 

message: However, the sudras in the rest of India were never a martial class, since warfare was the profession of the Ksyathriyas. According to this interpretation, Nairs would seem to be more like Kshatriyas since they were a martial class as well. Similar to Kshatriyas, they were only second to the Brahmins (Namboothiris). Furthermore, many Nair families were aristocratic. They owned large feudal estates and in some cases, even took part in the ruling of Kerala. An example is the Paliam family from Chendamangalam. The oldest male of the family, the Paliath Achan, served as the Prime Minister to the Raja of Cochin.
Would be a service to our community's reputation if stuff such as the above is also removed, as I see it is, it is mostly hot air and personal family image projection. Not the stuff fit for an universal encylcopedia! This what prompts others to throw garbage into the article.
:I agree. Also, those assertions are factually incorrect. Mauryas, Guptas, Shivaji, and all the South Indian royal families before the emergence of caste system in South India were not Kshatriyas.
::You are welcome to edit, and please sign your comments. You are arguing with a one-sided burden of proof. You have presented one half of an argument that talks about whether Nairs are Sudras or Kshatriyas - it doesn't assert either one, but provides similarities to both - the main point being that the caste system in Kerala was rather different from the rest of India, and that no one can say that Nairs ARE Kshyatriyas, or that Nairs ARE sudras. That's the point being discussed. If you feel such information is not "encyclopaedic", either change it, offer suggestions to improve it, but do not delete it entirely. Also, please sign your comments - that helps us know who we are talking to. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 16:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Excessive quotes and personal marketing etc. 

message: Just recently, I created an article titled "List of Nair Tharavadus". 
The article "List of Nair Tharavadus" is designed as a list for past and present nair tharavadus in Kerala. Assistance will be required by Wikipedia Users to help expand this list. The tharavadu listing is currently split in roughly district/ major city subheadings. In time, as the list grows, the sub-headings can be further refined, and new articles can be created for example "Nair tharavdus in Kasaragod". Furthermore, the links for articles of each tharavadu can be created in due course, providing information about the tharavadus history, origin, location, etc. 
In this way Wikipedia can become a mine of information for individuals who seek to learn more about the nair heritage. 
It must also be kept in mind that Wikipedia is a universal online encyclopedia, and as such, the material provided must be relevant and accurate.
NOTE: It would be much appreciated if the tharavadus listed are in fact nair tharavadus, as it has been known for families in the past to adopt the surname "Nair" even though they are not of nair caste.
Please help to update and add new tharavadus to the list. 
Thankyou
220.238.223.47 20:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: "[[List of Nair Tharavadus]]" Link

message: I would appreciate it if the person(s) deleting and reverting the article would post a summary of their changes, and their reasons for reversion and deletions. This article is not here to spread a particular kind of opinion or point-of-view. We are trying to present facts. I find the sections about the origin of Nairs being constantly edited to present a more ostensibly "favourable" point-of-view. --62.68.75.2 14:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverts/Deletes 

message: Some historians believe that the Marumakkathayam system started after the Chera-Chola wars during the second Chera empire, as Nairs lost most of their men during the war.
But this statement is not true because, then how come a brother look after his sister, when most of them died? The actual fact is that Namboothiries had sambandam with Nair ladies which produced "father less" children, gradually these children was looked after by there uncle.
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Sambadams were marriages between Namboothiris and Nayar women, thus the children had a father who was a brahmin. The children of such marriages are considered to be of Nayanar caste, not specifically of Nayar (warrior, kshatriya) caste, since they also practised vegitarianism and non-violence like their paternal ancestors. Also please sign your comment.
58.105.39.43 07:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Marumakkathayam]]

message: As 58.105.39.43 was stating "Sambadams were marriages between Namboothiris and Nayar women", actually its not a marriage, If a Namboothiti likes a Nair girl he just give her a "Pudava" and make love with her, ironically this is called a "marriage" or "Sambandam". Usually most of the Namboothirs will have many Sambadams, and the Nair woman will have "father less children". If the woman is smart and the Namboothiri is rich she some how makes money or land out of it. and these children will get a good 'administrative post' if the namboothiri is a land lord or a king. Modern Nairs are forgeting these factors and just polishing the truth and considering ther are forward cast.
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I however donot stand by this statement entirely.It is true that many of the Nair women had casual relations with the Namboodiris but if u notice,in the higher, aristocratic and more Aryanized and Kshatriya type families of the warlords and royals,this was more like a wedding.Sambandhams used to take place but they were long term relations in aristocratic families and the Namboodiri used to actually stay and father his children.Besides there was no such thing as "fatherless children".If a woman did not get the biological father to pay the delivery expenses, she would be expelled from her family.The kind of sambandhams you are talking of did exist but there were no children who didnot know their fathers.Manu
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Hello mulavelil_cheriyanadu, but its true that "Marumakathayam" in Nair tharavadu was actually based on the fact above (Sambadams), but now a day Nairs wont admit it, now they are saying that marumakathayam came in existance because they lost there men in the chera-chola war, which realy is foolish and ill-logic, Chera-chola war was not in Nort Kerala! Regarding your statement "If a woman did not get the biological father to pay the delivery expenses, she would be expelled from her family". If that is the case around 80% of them get expelled. 
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The Chera kingdom was very much in north Kerala by the way. You say that the Nairs losing men in the war is totaly illogical.Kindly point out the so called lack of logic in that concern.The Marumakhatayam emerged to keep the wealth in the female line. Men among the Nairs ususaly didnot get much of the wealth in the family and anyways when they died it went to their maternal nieces.Their children used to get their share from their mother's house.The marumakhatayam didnot emerge because of Sambandhams. It was a part of the Nair matriarchy. And if indeed the Nairs were not a forward caste like the Ezhavas, how do you explain why the government has not placed them in reservation? On the other hand, the Ezhavas do have reservation. This is because the Nairs were rich on a general basis and were the only Savarnas other than the Namboodiris.The Ezhavas were untouchables. The only factor that could possibly call a Nair a Sudra is the Keralolpati. Other than that all their customs are seen in the Kshatriyas.This again brings us back to my point that they lost men, made their caste matriarchal, broke a major Manusmriti rule, and got called Sudra.Manu (and kindly refer to me as Manu.Thats my name)
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Hello Manu, So you say marumakhatayam was a result of Chera-Chola war? Then if all men died what is the role of uncle in a house, was't he a man? If you deny Keralolpati you have to deny Manusmrithi, because we hindus belive all the text is based on Vedas. Also dont mix cast system with modern Government. 
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Well although Nairs were matriarchal,the matriarch always almost shared her power with the Karnavan or male head.Since the young husbands and brothers used to be away either in battle or in the Kalaris, the male head was the uncle who was generally old.The Keralolpati is NOT based on the Vedas. Infact the Vedas are far above the Manusmriti also.The vedas are true knowledge but the Manus rules are not entirely true. Besides Manus rules are Smriti and vedas are Shruti.The Keralolpati is the only book that states that all women but Namboodiri are created for the Namboodiri men. Now would you say a true Hindu would write a Book like that if he believed in the Vedas which respect women?Manu
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Are you trying to Glorify Thiyyas as a Forward caste? Thiyyas were not even allowed to walk on the roads. User: NP Nair
Hello NP Nair?? (Who dont even like to display his name, thinking Nairs are great). My boy regading Nairs and Ezhavas both the cast are actually Sudras. 
Knowing or practicing martial arts does not mean that they were Kshatriya. Nair, Nambiar etc were only Sthana peru (Job title) which by time desended to ther offsprings. 
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Well the statement you have in the bracket was totally unecessary but anyways. Nairs are not Sudras sir and they were only called Sudra because they were non Brahmins.This is because the Namboodiris didnot even touch other Brahmins and considered them lowly.It is only natural that they would regard a non Brahmins as a Sudra. Besides if you read the Manusmriti you will find that there is not a single rule that the Nairs dont follow which was prescribed for Kshatriyas, except the thread ceremony.This thread ceremony is not followed by any south indian Kshatriyas.Anyways one is entitled to ones own opinion but the rational thought would be this Manu
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Manu, The above statements that kshatriyas in Kerala does not have thread cerimonies is absurd and baseless. Refer Perumpadapu Swaroopam, then Other Varmas like Kilimanur, Poonjar and Thirumulpad. They are all Kshatriyas and Have Sacred Thread.
Ramavarma
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I am sorry abt tht...i didnt express my self clearly...when i say kshatriyas of south india dont wear the thread, i dont mean the rajahs...dont worry..rajahs n varmas do wear but other kshatriyas who are not twice born like the marathas, reddys, etc dont have this ceremony...the kings have...sorry abt tht Manu
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Calling a Nayar a shudra would be like calling a military commander and ruler a menial servant. Such comments are not only absurd but a blatant disregard and even disrespect of their (the Nayar's) rich and illustrious history. I am not a Nayar myself, but I do not deny that they were Kshatriyas, and to say otherwise would be to ignore the truth.
58.105.39.43 07:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Sambadams were marriages between Namboothiris and Nayar women????

message: The following rules of the Manusmriti clearly tell us that the Nairs are not Sudras. The Namboodiris who are the most orthodox Brahmins of India would have followed these rules had the Nairs been Sudras. They only called the Nairs Sudras because they were orthodox to the level that they didnt even touch other Brahmins, forget a non Brahmin.
I – 91. "One occupation only the Lord prescribed to the shudra - to serve meekly even these other three castes." X – 129. "No collection of wealth must be made by a shudra even though he be able to do it; for a shudra who has acquired wealth gives pain to Brahmana."(then how do u explain the rich Nairs and the kings?)VIII – 270. "A shudra who insults a twice born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin."(In Kerala this was the punishment given to all below Nair, namely Ezhava, Thiya etc)XII. 4. "If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the veda, then his tongue should be cut off; if he has mastered the veda his body should be cut to pieces."(Nair women used to study the ancient scriptures and Sanskrit.) Well one can only assume that the highly orthodox Namboodiris only called Nairs Sudras because they were non Brahmins.However one more explanation is possible.This theory is mine and its only a probability.The Nairs,like all Kshatriyas fulfill the requirements of the Manusmriti except the sacred thread ceremony which none of the south Indian Kshatriyas right from the Marathas of Maharasthra follow.I believe they were indeed considered Kshatriyas but due to the continuous warfare between the Cheras and others, where many of their men died, they decided to make their caste matriarchal and female dominated.This is strictly prohibited by the Manusmriti which says that a man who gives power and independence to a woman is a Sudra himself. Maybe that is why the Namboodiris call the Nairs Sudra, because they broke a major rule and apparently degraded themselves.Manu
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WE Hindus follow Vedas, not "Manusmriti". We all know that Manusmriti is made by a Brahnmin for Bhramins. If you realy know the subject you come to know that it is written in favor of Brahmins. Dont take Manusmriti as a basis to compare Nairs and other casts. Study Vedas and write here.
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"II-32. (The second part of) a brahmin’s (name) shall be (a word) implying happiness, of a kshatriya’s (word) implying protection, of a Vaishya’s (a term) expressive of thriving, and of a shudra’s (an expression) denoting service." 
from these quoting from Manusmrith, then Nairs should be Shudra!! 
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Nayar comes from sanskrit "Nayaka" meaning leader, one who offers protection. Please do not dishonour their ancestry.
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Very well. Can you kindly enlighten me with a Nair name that denotes service? As far as i know, they were the only people who were allowed the names of Gods other than the Namboodiris. Besides you seem to be forgetting the first part of that very statement very conviniently. It says "let the name of a Sudra express something contemptible. Kindly inform me about a contemtible name.Manu
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The Manusmriti may profess certain unacceptable rules and also project Brahmins as the best but still the entire caste system is based on this Manusmriti and we are discussing the Nairs with relation to that. That is why I have mentioned everything with relation to the Manu's rules.The entire caste system being based on that I have but little option than to relate to that. And kindly sign ur statements.Manu
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Hello Manu, First of all you should know that since NAirs knew Martial arts, does'nt mean they are Kshatriyas, also they are not Sudras, Nair is a "stana peru" given by the rulers, gradually desented to their offsprings. If a person can be called Kshatriyas based on there Martial arts knowledge or practice then Even Ezhavas are Kshatriyas, since there were lots of Kalari gurukals in Ezhava families. Can we call Sri krishana can be called Vishya? All the cast system is "bullshit" especially in Kerala. Another factor to note is since some of the nairs were rulers does'nt mean they were again Kshatriyas. Be practical, a man having "Strenght" always tried to become a leader, either in good way or bad. 
Please sign your comments Nair rituals and activities described above by Manu clearly indicate that Nairs were Kshatriyas....otherwise I would be very much inclined to believe that all non-Namboothiris in India are shudras...and that no caste such as Kshatriya or Vaishya exist. By stating Nairs are Kshatriyas, we are implying that other brahmins like Iyengars and Iyer are also Shudras....why? because we have concluded that anyone who is considered untouchable by a Namboothiri is a shudra....therefore they must all be sudras....workers and labourers by caste...although they were anything but that.
I hope I have demonstrated how ridiculous that argument is.
58.105.46.196 19:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Manusmriti rules 

message: I have a section (which is being consistently deleted) about Nairs being Kshatriyas or Sudras. In it, I have stated the reasons why Nairs could be considered both, or why they can be considered neither. The fact remains that the caste system in Kerala was radically different from anywhere else in India. However, I have seen people here who want to promote their own view as Nairs as Kshatriyas for sure (not borne by fact, since Kshatriyas weren't untouchables) and that Nairs were Sudras for sure (not borne by fact, since Sudras didn't perform Kshatriya duties like warfare and ruling). We are trying to fit the Kerala caste system with the caste system in the rest of India, and we are trying show it in as fair a manner as possible by talking about both sides. Please don't try to spread your own POV here. Thanks --62.68.66.42 16:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I would suggest that you actually read the section before making your statements. The argument presents both sides of the issue. Nairs were viewed as untouchable by Namboothiris since the Namboothiris believed they were superior to every caste in Kerala. However, this was obviously suspended in cases of sambandham. I haven't said Nairs are sudras; I have stated that they show certain attributes, while also showing attributes of Kshatriyas. So please, once again, read before you jump to conclusions. Thanks --217.26.84.76
To even suggest that Nairs are remotely associated with Sudras is in itself a blight on their race, heritage and caste.
58.104.38.155 00:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kshathriya/Shudra debate 

message: It must be noted that the following passage from the article is incorrect in historical terms:
the bridegroom received Thaali (wedding jewel) and placed it round the neck of the bride
The Thaali was an Ezhava tradition and has been implemented around Kerala in modern times, however historically Nair marriages were not known as a "Kalyanam" and did not involve a Thaali, but rather the exchange of a ring and the presentation of fine clothes.
58.104.6.224 07:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Nair weddings

message: I think we need a disambiguous link for Nair hair removal products
58.105.211.231 08:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed. Haizum 09:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nair products 

message: I had a Namboodiri scholar and astrologer clear certain doubts for me recently. Suresh Namboodiri, Kollam told me various things regarding the nairs. He told me that parasuram got a group of brahmins and settled them at madhya thiruvidhamkur...later they migrated to the north and south..of these only 64 families were given the right to be priests as they were the elite among those brahmins....the remaining were to assist them and were called ambalavasis...they are semi brahmins....similarly the people associated with military, ruling, and administration were called nair, similar to nayak, naik, naikar etc...he also clarified the sudra doubt about the nairs....he said that the nairs were sudra only for the orthodox namboodiri...and tht the term doesnt indicate they belong to the sudra caste...the namboodiris considered themselves so high that for them the nairs were sudra....but he said the nairs are not of sudra caste and would be members of the kshatriya militia....so much for that....straight from a namboodiri scholar. Manu
Manu, Can you Elaborate? I think you have misrepresented the facts here by breaking down to small incomplete sentences. When you elaborate try to elaborate on Migration of Brahmins from North India to Kerala and Tulu Nadu, How is Tulu Nadu Brahmins Different from Namboothiris, What was Manmakam (Not the Mamankams after Zamorins gained Prominance) and pupose? how was Perumal Appointed? Who used to Take part in Mamankam? Did Nairs figure in those Mamankams? If So what were their Roles? Was nair ever appointed a perumal? What is the condition for a South Indian Ruler to be a Perumal? How do you track the lineage and Blood lines of the Last Perumal to Present Day Royal Families. These are some of the points on a big Jig-Zaw puzzle. There are much more to the Puzzle. Correlate all those stuff before you make statements or discuss with scholars.
Suggested Reading
1--> Malabar Manual By Logan (You should find this in D.C. Books). 2--> Cochin State Maual By Achytha Menon(out of print, maybe you can find it in Govt. Archieves) 3-> TVC State manual (out of print, maybe you can find it in Govt. Archieves) 4--> Kerala Mahatmyam (out of print, maybe you can find it in Govt. Archieves) 5--> Keralolpathi (out of print, maybe you can find it in Govt. Archieves)
Some Misrepresentations in your text
1-->"He told me that parasuram got a group of brahmins and settled them at madhya thiruvidhamkur" It is not Madhya thiruvidhamkur it is 32 settlements North of Prumpuzha in Tulunadu and 32 south of Perumpuzha to Kanyakumari. 
2-->"64 families were given the right to be priests " Traditionally not all members of the 64 settlements had right to be priests, brahmins were further classified as Adhyans, Asyans, Othulla Brahmins, Othilla Brahmins, Bhattathiri, BhattathiriPad, Brahmins with right to do Yagam, Brahmins without this right, Othikan, Brahmins with Temple priesthood, Brahmins who can do only cooking, etc...
3-->"nairs were sudra only for the orthodox namboodiri" how do you classify an orthodox and unorthodox namboothiri?
User:ramavarma
well i didnt ask him all tht coz im not much into malabar...neways he said the namboodiris were generally orthodox...and so as far as they were concerned the nairs were sudra...he said tht is not to be taken as "belonging to the sudra caste"...anyways he said only these 64 gramom people were called namboodiri and the rest were ambalavasisi...no idea abt tht keralolpathi coz i havent read it completely...jus a few paras frm here n there...
This article calls Nairs Sudra, a forward class  --64.124.144.10 14:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Straight From a Namboodiri 

message: The famous Marathas of Maharastra have been accepted as Kshatriyas. But looking at their history the Nairs are even above them.
I read a book by Jadunath Sarkar, an eminet Maratha Historian, called Shivaji and his times. The Marathas were the peasants of Maharastra. They were famous for lack of etiquette and manners and for their crude behavior. They were pure Sudras of Maharasthra and lived through farming and peasantry. 
One has to note that no major kingdom ever rose in Maharastra except that of Shivaji's. Till before the entire region was either under one of the empires of the north or asouth who were based elsewhere. With the rise of the islamic nations of the Adilshah and Nizamshah etc many of these local farmers were given positions of power in their native land due to which they became substantially powerful. Some of these families were the Bhonsles, Mohites etc.
However they still didnot claim Kshatriya status. Neither were their Maratha people warriors. But with these local feudal lords rising they started taking members of the same farmer and peasant caste and making them soldiers.
There was a Sudra peasant whose son left tthe village and entered the service of a jadhav (a maratha whose grandad had been made a tehsildar from a farmer) noble. He first worked as a guard but later after gaining a lot of gold which he found somewhere he became rich. He then married his son, Shahaji to the jadhavs daughter Jijabai and their son was shivaji.
shivaji after becoming powerful wanted to become a kshatriya. But the brahmins refused to accept it saying that the only dwijas were brahmins. Eventually Gangu Bhat of Varanasi was payed nearly 5 crores (at that time) to declare shivaji a kshatriya. Moreover this bhat also declared that the marathas and shivaji were descended from the Maharanas of Udaipur in unbroken line and were of Suryavansham. 
Thts how, about 350 years back the peasants who were the marathas became "kshatriyas" with even a hocus pocus descent from the udaipur family. Note that the only kshatriyas in India who the brahmins accepted as dwija were the rajputs and the kerala rajahs.
The nairs and rajahs did the same job. only that on the popular belief that only brahmins were dwija they were not considered kshatriya. however for ruling it was essential to be a kshatriya and so some of them , who claimed unbroken descent from the original 600 nagavanshi tharas, were made kshatriyas. Thts the only difference. The book also mentions the crude and unmannered behavior of shivaji himself and the author blames that on the peasant origin of hardships and toughness
I would also verify something. The book said tht the Udaipur Rajahs were descendants of Ram. But i read in the websiet of the cochin royal family tht they too have descended from rams son, luvs, grandson. does that make them cousins of the udaipur people? i guess they are rajputs in that case. Rama Varma, help- Manu
:Manu, claiming to have descended from some divine/popular mythical/religious figure is a form of political legitimacy to make oneself and one's dynasty more appealing to the masses. Verifying such a claim is impossible - I usually consider the more probably version of any story. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 09:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Marathas  

message: I rearranged and reworded the part about Nairs coming from the north. I had to remove the part about Nairs removing their thread to escape the wrath of Parashurama because the story of Parashuraman is a myth. I also removed the part about "handsome men and beautiful women among Nairs" bit since it's POV and has no place in this article. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 09:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New changes