Talk:Hangman's knot

message: I was about to write this then decided maybe we should not describe here how to tie this.  Hmph. --Justfred
Some would say that's stifling the free interchange of information. But anyway... This article could certainly do with fleshing out. It doesn't stand well on it's own. Darac 21:57, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title: Instructions?

message: I added a section on other uses.  Basically a "hangman's knot" is the same as fishing's uni knot.  I was going to give directions on tying it on the uni knot page, but wondered if maybe I should remove the other uses section that I put in with the link to the uni knot page for all the reasons listed above.
:Isn't it so that when you tie a uni knot and pull it tight you get:
:Loose end - straight - winding - straight - loop - straight - main rope
:Whereas the hangman's knot goes like:
:Loose end - winding - straight - straight - loop - straight - main rope
:So I don't think they're quite identical. 82.139.87.182 (talk) 20:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other uses 

message: Is there a reason why the line "this knot was offten used to kil slaves and people that were accused of being a witch. They would have the knot around your neck and make you stand on a deck then they would push you off causing the tightness of the rope to beak your neck" is there? It seems rather pointless as a) the spelling is poor, b) its pointing out a specific use when the actual use was more general (i.e. not just slaves and witches, also used from horse back), and c) it's preceded by the line "The Hangman's Knot was used on ropes in Colonial America as well as England during the 17th and 18th centuries as a way to execute condemned people easily. The knot would break a person's neck if tied correctly, otherwise the person was simply left to strangle to death."
If there is feel free to revert it, otherwise I removed this bit of repitition. 01:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: Is their not a formula to calculate the length of the rope considering the weight of the person? I think this is relevant information that should be added.
Yes, there is. But it's not relevant to the knot, only to the practice of hanging which is where it's referenced. RedHillian 00:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Rope length

message: JayMill 04:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it ideally placed in front, swiveling to the left side upon drop?  I believe that info comes from Geo Stone's book.  And what's the source for claiming that the hangman's knot was for strangulation hangings?!?  68.83.72.162 (talk) 14:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: A couple of Comments

message: The knot is also known as a “parade knot”.  It was used by the US Calvary (and other horse units) when they were leading their horses while in foot.  The intent of this parade knot was to serve as a way to humanely maintain control of a horse during a parade where it could be suddenly startled.
The loop of the noose was tightened around the muzzle of the horse.  The lead, along with the reins, were held in the off hand and the coils were held in the hand closest to the horse.  If the horse started to skitter, the person leading the horse could take the coils and cant them against the horses jaw.  This would cause the loop to temporally tighten but would loosen when the coils were moved to the original perpendicular position.  This technique was used to provide temporary control over an otherwise well disciplined horse.
What I would like to see in this article (and I will start doing some research) is what are the different “knots” used for judicial hangings?  I know that the British used a spliced running loop lined with chamois leather.  I also believe that US military hangings used a similar spliced running noose.  It would be interesting to find out whether other countries used the “hangman’s/parade knot”.  It would also be interesting to find out when the hangman’s/parade knot was first used for judicial hangings in this country and how it was chosen.
One theory I have read indicated that the bulk of the coils of the hangman’s/parade knot would impact the mastoid process of the condemned, knocking them out.  I don’t know whether this theory is accurate or not. Throckmorton Guildersleeve (talk) 17:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: AKA parade knot

message: If I hung a rope from a tree in the middle of town square with a bow tie at the end, it would be ignored until park employees removed it. However if that rope ended in a Hangman's Noose, it would make news headlines that very evening. The act alone could possibly even be considered a "Hate Crime". Of all the knots you can tie, this is the only one that invokes fear and anger in people and even carries connotations of racism. Also people have been penalized and even fired from their jobs over this particular knot... even just for DRAWING a picture of one! So I believe this topic is notable enough to be included in this article. If a rope was found in a tree in the front yard of Barack Obama, that was tied in a Hangman's Noose, it would be the top story of every media outlet on earth. BillyTFried (talk) 15:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What about political implications or symbolism? 

message: I made an edit to the hangman's noose page today. It's really poorly written though so talented writers and wiki editors may want to go in and fix it. Thanks. Djclimber (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hangman's knot in racism 

message: BillyTFried is onto some good points. It is definitely worth noting that it would be really idiotic to display this knot where it could be publicly viewed. I wrote a snippet on that but something more detailed--and with citations--should be posted. Thanks! 69.134.178.168 (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Post script 

message: All the History section says is "The hangman's knot was used on ropes in Colonial America as well as England during the 16th and 18th centuries.".  Immediately two questions spring to mind
# What did they do in the 17th century?
# The hanging article says in England it was used for judicial punishment from around 400 to 1964.  Did they use other knots in that period?
Maybe they used other types of knot - I'm no expert.  Needs to be clarified though.  The hanging article seems quite extensive, so maybe just put a link in to that for execution information if this knot was used in most cases.
This article should say when and where the knot originated, and its history (if any) outside executions. Lessthanideal (talk) 16:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Any kind of noose will kill if one is suspended by the neck, whether the neck is broken or not.  Historically, death by hanging meant strangulation, not a quick end due to cervical fracture as executions were not meant to be painless or quick.  There is a lot of entertainment value in watching someone struggling at the end of a noose.  A much earlier knot used was the scaffold knot (http://www.expertvillage.com/video/73193_knot-tying-tips-multiple-scaffold.htm), which also is a self locking knot.  I believe this was used extensively in England and elsewhere in Europe until relatively recently.   Several variations on this theme were used at various times and in various jurisdictions.  The hangman's knot became "popular in England during the 17th or 18th century because it was very strong and would not release no matter how hard the victim struggled.  After introduction of the measured drop in late 19th century England a simple loop noose (http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/berryn.jpg) was used as a drop of 6 or 7 feet would almost always result in a broken or dislocated neck (if not the victim would still die in a few minutes, albeit more slowly).  In any event, there is very little in the way of struggle when someone is hanged this way.  I am not sure of the dates or many of the particulars of these events but someone could do some serious research on this and greatly improve the article.  The following article gives a very good history of hanging in the UK but little detail is provided about the kind of noose used prior to the 1890s (http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging1.html#pinion).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.78.86.166 (talk) 16:54, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  History section is poor 

message: There are a number of misconceptions here about how the hangman’s noose kills. To assure a dislocation or fracture of the cervical vertebra a drop of 5 to 7 feet is required (or more especially if the victim is a small woman or child).  Tables are available to calculate the drop depending on the weight of the victim (http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html).  Unconsciousness is almost immediate (supposedly) and death occurred a few minutes later.  The “blow” provided by the knot upon a drop of several feet likely ads nothing the process.  In fact a simple loop noose was used instead of the hangman’s noose in the U.K. and many other jurisdictions because it was just as effective at causing a neck fracture, especially when the knot is placed toward the front of the neck, and easier to remove when the hanging was over.  So the use of the hangman’s noose in modern judicial hangings serves no purpose other than tradition.  
Prior to the mid 19th century most hangings were performed with little or no drop off a ladder or the back of a cart and the neck was almost never broken.  (This is still the way hangings are carried out in some parts of the world and how most suicide hangings take place.)  In such cases it can take 1 to 3 minutes before the victim looses consciousness and he/she may struggle violently during the painful process.   The pain largely is due to damage to soft neck tissues caused by the entire body weight being supported by the neck and jaw.  Also the victim will feel panic at being unable to breath.  Unconsciousness and eventually death results from asphyxia caused by blockage of blood to the brain and not due to lack of air in the lungs.  Note, in some cases death may occur very quickly after suspension due to heart stoppage caused by the vagal reflex.  This is why it is extremely dangerous to play at hanging even if the victim is suspended only for a few seconds.  
In the case of a short drop or suspension hanging there is an advantage to a self-locking knot like the hangman’s knot.  If properly tied and lubricated with wax or soap it will tighten under the weight of the victim but will not loosen during the inevitable struggle, accomplishing the strangulation process more rapidly.  Also, the tradition of placing the knot below the ear has the advantage of obstructing both the carotid and vertebral arteries resulting in more rapid unconsciousness.  In fact, condemned prisoners were known to request bribe hangmen to properly place the noose at the side of the neck before being executed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.195.236.222 (talk) 17:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I also don't understand how a knot could provide an extra blow. Maybe a particular shape of knot could keep the head in a position that makes the drop more effective, but adding an extra blow? That seems very implausible to me, I'll remove it from the article. 82.139.87.182 (talk) 20:43, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  How the Hangman's Noose Kills 

message: The current alleged illustration consists of an off-white rectangle, being slightly impinged upon the right border by what appears to be a much smaller blue rectangle.  Nothing else is visible -- rope, noose, knot -- nothing.  How about an actual illustration of the knot?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 03:13, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Illustration Needed 

message: A more detailed description of how to make the noose is needed. And also scientifically, how does the noose kill ? Is it death by suffocation or breaking one's neck ? Is it a slow painful death or a sudden rapid death ?
Aceus0shrifter (talk) 13:57, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: it all really depends, if you do it the wrong way. (jumping off something too low) you will suffocate a slow painful death and if you do it the right way (jumping off something high enough to snap your neck). you will have a quick painless death. MapleShade Of The Dark Forest (talk) 19:57, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

text: All that stuff is explained in depth in the Hanging article. This article is limited to describing the knot and some uses for it. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 21:58, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Need more detailed description of how the Hangman's knot works. 

message: and maybe a disclaimer box thingy like in WP:SOS? Sanchopancho02 (talk) 04:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so; the focus of this article is quite removed from suicide;  takes the reader to Suicide by hanging before they encounter an established . It's only one possible way this knot might be employed. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 14:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Should this contain the suicide sidebar? 

message: Many users have repeatedly removed the gif found in the infobox due to the it being perceived as dangerous. I also find the gif problematic because of the serious danger for someone to use it for the purpose of self harm or suicide. I am aware that Wikipedia is not considered censored, however, it is also Wikipedia policy that images should not be offensive unless there is serious encyclopedic value in its inclusion. There are other images of the hangman's knot that do not show how to tie it, such as the image already included in the page. I want to seek consensus on removing the gif in the page, and if the consensus desires an image to replace it with, it ought to be one that does not show others how to tie this knot. 
Note: I'm still a novice at editing, so if there is anything else that needs to be included to formally request this change, such as tagging an administrator, I ask that a more informed Wikipedia editor make the proper additions. Thanks!
Roccoharde (talk) 22:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Please read WP:NOTCENSORED, which is a Wikipedia policy. A simple gif showing how the knot is constructed is highly relevant to the subject. You've already found an administrator, but you don't need a one "formally request a change." You need to establish a policy-based consensus from established users. OhNoitsJamie Talk 22:53, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

text: It cannot be reasonably argued that an image showing how a knot is formed is offensive or dangerous. If you really want a silly discussion, I put it to you that someone wishing to engage in hanging is likely to cause more offence and be more dangerous without clear instructions. I however don't think a silly discussion is at all helpful. The article is about a knot. It should include description of its form and function. Images are encouraged in all articles. The image is a visual description of how the knot is formed. There is no reason to remove the image. All the recent edits appear to be nothing more than an effort to sanitise the article in accordance with some agenda, all under the guise of cleaning up with minor edits. Trying in every way to hide the truth is contrary to the fundamental principals of Wikipedia. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 17:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Gif in Infobox