Talk:Subprime mortgage crisis

message: Whatever is being described in this article is as much caused by various other activities that took place in the US financial industry, as by the underlying subprime mortgages. To label this the Subprime mortgage crisis is incorrect, and shows a POV. Glkanter (talk) 20:18, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Formerly this article was about the entire recession, but now it is about the real estate and mortgage aspects. Note the link to "2007–2010 financial crisis" in large lettering at the top right. Potatoswatter (talk) 07:11, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I just looked at the history of this article. Originally it was about a subprime mortgage problem that was affecting homeowners and certain lending institutions. Glkanter (talk) 06:27, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I have two questions: First, what options or abilities do we have to re-title the article as, for instance,  the Mortgage Banking Crisis? Second, should there be at least some emphasis or effort to describe events that led up to the crisis -- including mortgage banking fraud incidents, and political events in various states that led toward the crisis? Richard Katz (talk) 06:47, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

text: This is a common name for this crisis; you can find articles using this name from about every major media source. Granted, lots of causes beyond subprime but this is what many call it. Folks are taking a broader view now and someday perhaps we can change the name of the article.Farcaster (talk) 01:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

text: The text of the article is accurate — you don't seem to be disputing that. To be sure, there is an ongoing crisis where many people who were given subprime mortgages are getting their homes repossessed by banks other than the original lender. So, the title doesn't suggest any thesis that isn't backed by the text. What title do you propose? Potatoswatter (talk) 21:17, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: No, clearly the text of this article is inaccurate, starting with the title.  There is no mention of the fact that other loans failed at a higher rate, no mention of housing bubbles in spain, latvia, etc, WORLD WIDE - and no mention of how any of the "causes" listed that apply only to the united states caused these bubbles in foreign countries.  Now that we know more, and realize that "thunder" isn't "god clapping his hands" - maybe this article should be revised as to reflect reality...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.82.197 (talk) 22:27, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

text: The Panics, which caused this Great Depression, were more like a series of multiple car crashes on a freeway with some causal and some coincidental. More unifying titles would be something like Greed Crisis of 2007 or Wall St Gambling Crisis of 2008. There was a Housing Bubble which deflated in 2007, but was not a "crisis" nor The Crisis. I would argue that this was not a "Real Estate Crisis" either, but a Greed Crisis spilling out because of "De-Regulation". 
There was a Crude Oil Speculation bubble from Summer 2007 to Fall 2008. There were sausagemaking CDOs, which started exploding, causing AIG to implode. Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch and Lehman Bros are each a cause and effect in themselves. But, underlying all of this was whirlpool of "front running" and "flash trading", which encountered a "Black Swan Event" in Aug/Sep '08, partially because of the effects of exorbitant oil prices, and partially because of a glut of out-of-work construction workers, but largely because the atmospherics of unease and unraveling reduced the stake of fresh cash with which the Big Banks and Brokerages, both on Wall St and 'the City' in the UK, sustained the enormous amounts they were gambling in 'front running' and 'flash trading'. While true, faulty 'sub-prime' mortgages amounted to $30B perhaps $40B, in Nov '08, however, the 'overhang' of CDOs amounted to $21T! 
Clearly, 'sub-prime' mortgages contributed to this Great Depression mostly by "bad press" and excuses. And "irresponsible homeowners" became scapegoats instead of blame aimed directly at criminally reckless "Bankers".
As the volume of Un-Employed stays un-employed or is increased, the further the ripple effects of this Great Depression spread. More homes and family savings are lost. Greece. Spain. Italy. It is all connected, only partially by Real Estate.
CDOs, 'front running' and 'flash trading' have only increased geometrically since, e.g. CDO 'overhang' exceeded $200T by Aug 2011. If the same mistakes (deliberate) are not to be made again, this title and explanation needs to be re-crafted. Tgsherer (talk) 00:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

text: The article is outstanding. Just the title needs fixing. Glkanter (talk) 22:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  Clearly it is not for the reasons above that no one can seem to answer/dispute.  How did "subprime" loans in the US, or their supposed causes, cause worldwide bubbles?  Why do "subprime" loans get an article when there is no "alt A loan crisis" article or "jumbo loan crisis" or "subprime irish loan crisis" articles?  This article clearly attempts to rewrite history, calling an EFFECT of a worldwide mortgage bubble popping, a CAUSE of said event.  CAUSATION MATTERS - just not in this article i guess.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.82.197 (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

text: I'm with you. I started this section, and I posted about this on some board specifically for this problem some months ago, but I didn't manage to convince anyone. I'll support your efforts 100%. Glkanter (talk) 22:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The Title Of This Article Violate Wikipedia's NPOV Policy.

message: Where do I start?</br>
"During the crisis and ensuing recession, U.S. consumers increased their savings as they paid down debt ("deleveraged")"
<P>
This is absolutely not true,  people didn't "pay down" their debt at all,</br>
the reduction in debt is totally a result of defaults. 
<P>
"Borrowers in this situation have an incentive to default on their mortgages as a mortgage is typically nonrecourse debt secured against the property.[68"
<P>
Again not true,  only 11 states are nonrecourse states</br>
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1432437
 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.16.77 (talk) 01:39, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: So many errors

message: What is the purpose of the image? Is it a positive contribution to Wikipedia? It doesn't really help to explain nor understand the economic problems. I request that it be removed. 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Banks_are_bastards.jpg/295px-Banks_are_bastards.jpg  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpops2ko (talk • contribs) 14:08, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with removing the image...and with the image.Farcaster (talk) 20:21, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Use of image

message: I've been looking into the GSE contribution to this crisis lately - there's a 2010 Republican report on it, [www.aei.org/docLib/Pinto-High-LTV-Subprime-Alt-A.pdf Pinto's estimate] that the GSEs contributed a heckuva lot, and some commentary on Pinto's analysis from Belsky and colleagues (1, 2). However, I'm still trying to work it out all out. Putting this down for the record, but help would be appreciated. II | (t - c) 00:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: The GSE contribution

message: I can't come up with the research to verify the facts from independent sources; my statements below are based on direct experience, which is a form of original research, disallowed on Wikipedia.  And a good write-up demands more skill than I can muster.  But I want to post this request that someone come up with a source and rewrite the second sentence of this article, which reads: "Approximately 80% of U.S. mortgages issued to subprime borrowers were adjustable-rate mortgages.[1]" I'm concerned this sentence creates an erroneous impression that rising interest rates triggered subprime defaults.  These were loans that were unsustainable as written, whether interest rates rose or not. 
In an adjustable rate mortgage, as more generally understood prior to the advent of what are now called subprime mortgages, the original loan documents contained language on when the rate would re-set, what index would be used and the margin above the index. In general, if there were no change in the index, the interest rate on the adjustable rate loan did not change.  (Later, while there were ARMs with teaser rates, set to rise even if the index stayed constant, the provisions were less aggressive than still later, subprime mortgages.)
Rising interest rates couldn't have been the cause of defaults in the subprime mortgages made in 2004-2006, because rates didn't rise.  Instead, provisions in the original loan documents committed the borrower to either refinance and pay off the loan, sell the house, or make much higher monthly payments.  The rate of interest charged (and in some cases the rate of amortization) were set up in the original loan document for automatic, large, upward revision.  There was no intention that anyone would actually make those higher payments, but that continuously rising home values and continued easy borrowing would allow the borrower to either refinance the loan or sell the house at a profit and pay it off. By the time those original payment increase provisions took effect, lending standards had tightened and home values had fallen, preventing refinance or sale of the house, leading to default.
--Madison Max (talk) 19:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: subprime mortgages weren't really ARMs

message: An article about the mortgage crisis with only three mentions of President Bush and his policies. This is one toothless article! It's plain to objective observers that Bush hands-off policy in regard to regulating the banking industry is primarily responsible here. If Gore had been elected president in 2000, none of this would have happened. SCFilm29 (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: What a Toothless Article

message: This statement is incorrect:
:Government-sponsored enterprises (GSE) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac either directly owed or guaranteed nearly $5 trillion in mortgage obligations, with a similarly weak capital base, when they were placed into receivership in September 2008.[203]
The GSEs were placed into conservatorship,http://fhfa.gov/ not receivership.
The statement's  footnote's link ([203]) is dead, so this (possible) source of the error is not available.
Omni4 (talk) 03:19, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are not in receivership

message: Being new to this article I didn't want to just jump in on the editing, but I was surprised there was no mention of Eliot Spitzer's revelation re: the bush admin's role in blocking investigations into predatory lending in all 50 states.  This is a crucial piece of evidence of deliberate wrongdoing.  
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/13/AR2008021302783.html
This is at a time when insiders were betting against the mortgage market while selling MBS's to unwitting investors.
A little intelligence like this could make them a heck of a lot of money.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rwinkel (talk • contribs) 12:19, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spitzer's "Partners in Crime" revelation 

message: The lead says, "Approximately 82% of U.S. mortgages issued to subprime borrowers were adjustable-rate mortgages." (It did say 80% until just recently.) The link provided as a reference is a dead link . Searching for something similar brings me here, where it says, "2/28 adjustable rate mortgages comprise up to 80% of subprime loans today" (where "today" was February 7, 2007). "Up to" 80% is different than "approximately" 80%. Unfortunately "up to 80%" is almost meangless, and so I don't think just changing the phrasing in the article will help. We need a better reference if that's worth keeping. CRETOG8(t/c) 16:29, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  fraction of adjustable-rate mortages 

message: Very nice work on the Diagrams- I would like to modify it in terms of the Australian Government's response to the crisis but also cite your prior work.  As a doctoral student, I am trying to stay clear of wikipedia cites... is there another option I could use?
:) 
JulesMSJulesMS (talk) 07:31, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I updated the first citation; Bush's speech of September 24, 2008 covers some of this.  Mark Zandi published the first chapter of his book "Financial Shock" online via his website as well, which walks through a series of facts much like the diagram. Bernanke has summarized the crisis as well in his speeches; there are a couple that cover how we got here from 2009.Farcaster (talk) 14:09, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modifying Subprime Mortage Crisis Diagram 2 and Citation 

message: Shouldn't this question merit a separate section?
Only the "award-winning" NPR point of view is included in this article.  
A notable and reliable POV is that the US federal government contributed to the change in the lending standards of mortgage lenders by punishing or threatening to punish evidence of discriminatory lending practices.  Why isn't this POV included in this article? Here's an example of this POV: [] Michael H 34 (talk) 20:29, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Why did lending standards change?

message: I removed recent additions of links to works of Dr. Pezzuto by User:I.Pezutto because there appears to be a conflict of interest. Do those of us who do not have a COI with this content see a need for this material? Jojalozzo 05:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pezzuto references (COI?) 

message: Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources.  Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  JamesMLane t c 05:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyright problem removed 

message: I just made a few changes that I regard to be technical changes. The section that used to be titled "Mortgage Fraud" was confusing because it covered both mortgage fraud (which the FBI defines as fraud against the lender) and predatory lending (which is fraud by the lender against the borrower). To make it clearer I added definitions and changed the title to cover both types of fraud. Also, the last paragraph used to be this:
::"New York State prosecutors are examining whether eight banks hoodwinked credit ratings agencies, to inflate the grades of subprime-linked investments. The Securities and Exchange Commission, the Justice Department, the United States attorney’s office and more are examining how banks created, rated, sold and traded mortgage securities that turned out to be some of the worst investments ever devised. As of 2010, virtually all of the investigations, criminal as well as civil, are in their early stages."
I thought that paragraph, which seems to pertain to fraud against rating agencies, belonged in the rating agency section. I don't believe that I removed anyone's commentary - just reorganized it.Nicholas007 (talk) 16:32, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Mortgage Fraud vs. Predatory Lending

message: I was attempting to improve the Causes of the United States housing bubble article when I stumbled upon this article. Obviously the Subprime mortgage crisis and the housing bubble are not the same but there is such a large amount of overlap that I felt compelled to make this merger suggestion, if only to draw attention to the duplication in the articles. Before I started adding links there was no link to the (much better) Subprime mortgage crisis article in the Causes of the United States housing bubble article. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:26, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Many articles overlap in this space. I suspect the Causes of the United States housing bubble was a detail carve-out from the United States housing bubble article to try to keep the latter shorter. Perhaps we can more clearly point it back to the U.S. housing bubble article and shorten it a bit. Also, we might want to include the Financial Crisis of 2007-2008 template with it.Farcaster (talk) 22:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

text: We might also consider merging it with "Causes of the subprime mortgage crisis"Farcaster (talk) 22:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, merge it with the section, not the whole Subprime mortgage crisis article. --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:46, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger proposal 

message: Farcaster, I hereby argue it is important to include something on Subprime I in the article, such as what 
you deleted, because
#someone researching old news articles from 1999, 2000 which talk about a subprime mortgage bubble and then looking at this article might be confused.
#knowing there was a subprime bubble complete with foreclosures, cries of predatory lending, subprime mortgage originators going bankrupt, etc. less than a decade earlier gives some perspective on the 2008 crisis --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Deleting Subprime I 

message: I just downloaded this chart
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fredgraph-houshld-net-worth.png
... but I just noticed we already have "Impacts from the Crisis on Key Wealth Measures" in the Impact in the U.S. section, one of which covers the same net worth change. 
IMHO those Impact charts are hard to read, and lack the dramatic visual impact that the Fred graph has. 
Any opinions? --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:28, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm a big FRED fan.  Perhaps you could use a shorter date range (2000 to present perhaps) to better show the impact of the crisis and the reversal.  The section on ongoing effects of the crisis would be a great place for that. In terms of the other chart, I think it's fine but you have to expand it to see it, true enough.  You also put a section on "Subprime I" in there which I removed; if you want it re-included in the body let me know and since you took the time to include it I'll find a spot for it.  I just thought it disrupted the flow of the lead too much.Farcaster (talk) 02:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Have added the chart making it the same size as the "impact" charts box -BoogaLouie (talk) 23:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  New graph on loss of household net worth 

message: Farcaster, again I have to contest your edits here. Krugman is not saying <BR>"those agencies [the GSEs Fannie and Freddie] and goals were not involved in housing and commercial real estate markets outside the US." <BR>
He is saying what I orginally wrote before you edited it. 
<BR>"agencies and goals were not involved in commercial real estate market in the US or any real estate market outside it"<BR>
i.e. Fannie and Freddie were not involved in commercial real estate period, and not involved in housing outside the US. 
PS, it's not to big a stretch to describe an economist as "liberal" when the name of their blog is "The Conscience of a Liberal"
--BoogaLouie (talk) 21:34, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia doesn't generally tag people with their philosophy in advance (e.g., Conservative economist X, liberal economist Y).  So that comes out. However, I think your initial edit looks fine on a second read. I wouldn't put Krugman in disagreement with Wallison, as one is a giant and the other is somebody who's views have been utterly rejected.  And I do appreciate your ongoing efforts to "balance" the arguments when there are 10 units of evidence on one side versus one unit on the other (e.g., the view that Fannie & Freddie were a primary cause, when both the majority and minority FCPA dissent disagreed).  We'll have to discuss paring back the he-said/she-said in the Government article as well.Farcaster (talk) 22:11, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

text: BoogaLouie, where in that link does Krugman talk about real estate outside of the USA? Did I miss it? Jason from nyc (talk) 22:26, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: You're right. No mention in that post by Krugman that the fact that the crisis was global indicates US Federal housing policy is innocent of its cause. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:01, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

text: At some point we'll have to dial back the conservative noise in the Government article supporting the subprime. The he said/she-said just doesn't bear out.  We probably should use the majority report as our guide and mention (in a separate section on dissenting views maybe) some of the conservative hype and its debunking. I enjoyed this tidbit from Krugman: "And the other Republicans on the commission knew how bogus Wallison’s stuff was. They even worried that Ed Pinto, who was responsible for the data, might have been on the take: 'Maybe this email is reaching you too late but I think wmt [William M. Thomas] is going to push to find out if pinto is being paid by anyone.' But while the non-Wallison GOP commissioners basically agreed that the whole thing was bogus, they avoided saying so clearly. And that was clearly political."Farcaster (talk) 22:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  "clarifying" Krugman's position 

message: Have rewritten the ‎Inaccurate credit ratings section also. 
The rewrites both add a large number of bites to the article, but much of that is in footnotes which are longer than normal because they include quotes. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:28, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Inaccurate credit ratings

message: Before the days of computerized checkouts shopping required that the shopper decide what he/she needed to buy before leaving the house.  He/she then checked to see that there was enough money in his/her wallet or checking account, also before leaving the house.  At the checkout line the sales clerk rang up the purchases on a cash register and the shopper could read the printout before handing over the money or writing the check. Discrepancies were resolved on the spot, before payment.1
 A consumer would plan his/her purchases, verify that the necessary money was there, shop, verify that the amount charged was correct, and pay.  The process was straightforward and the consumer was in control.
In today's computerized checkouts we hand over the payment before the salesclerk gives us the receipt.  If there is a problem we must choose between taking the loss and standing in line at the customer service desk.  Most shoppers leave big box stores and groceries without checking their receipts. In addition, many are using checking accounts with overdraft protection or credit cards that do not have to be paid off so long as the cardholder can pay the interest.2 These shoppers can buy without having money to pay or without knowing whether they have money to pay.  The many shoppers who do not check their receipts may pay too much and others using credit cards or checks may not pay and may find themselves in complex adversarial situations with their credit card company or bank.3  This confusing, devious and dangerous process dis-empowers shoppers. Instead of of planning a purchase, planning the method of payment and verifying that the amount charged is correct we shop without planning and often end up in trouble.  When enough of us end up in trouble the nation has a financial crisis.4
The sub prime mortgage crisis was driven by adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs). An ARM is a bait and switch proposition: a low interest rate/monthly payment is the bait.  After the mortgagee has committed him/herself it is switched when the interest rate/monthly payment is raised. Foreclosure follows. 5
Our parents were young consumers in the 1950s and 1960s, before there were computers, checking accounts with overdraft protection and credit cards. For the most part they habitually planned their purchases and their method of payment, and they verified that they were getting what they intended to buy for the agreed upon price. Their children, however, were young consumers in the 1980s and 1990s.  They  had no experience with a straightforward experience of shopping. Planning their purchases and the method of payment is not even a concept for too many of them. These young people were groomed to buy now and take the consequences later.  Their parents and grandparents would, for the most part, have recognized the danger of the ARM and avoided it.  The younger generation were ready victims.
It is important to understand the fraud and irresponsibility that led to the sub prime mortgage crisis, to punish wrongdoers and to impose regulations to prevent future abuses.  Still, wherever there are victims there will be scoundrels to exploit them and the scoundrels are always one step ahead of the regulators.  Consumers who plan, who are not ready victims, would be a bulwark against future fraud.6  
1  Personal experience being a consumer in this time period. 
2  Personal experience being a consumer during the past thirty years.
3  Experience of younger acquaintances. 
4  Conclusion drawn from the above experience.
5  Experience of younger acquaintances and information from many news sources.
6  This is an important idea.  
I know what I have written does not look like the usual Wikipedia article: still, I had to start somewhere, and I am willing to learn.
  
Jason from nyc (talk) 12:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  CONSUMERS GROOMED TO BE VICTIMS OF FRAUD 

message: >> ‘Ring of Death’ Throttles Georgia as Small Banks Close: Economy(Lihaas (talk) 17:09, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Links 

message: Should we define "major narratives?" I appreciate the intention if we're trying to introduce the reader to different descriptions of what caused what; but should we decide which narrative is "major" and how many there are? Is there widespread agreement in the economic profession on such contending narratives? For example, decades ago when I was a student one could say there was a policy debate on business cycle regulation and whether fiscal policy or monetary policy should be the main tool. One could have said there were two major camps. Do we have anything like that with regard to the subprime crisis and subsequent recession? I'm not even sure the "Great Depression" has a finite number of narratives. I worry that we are doing original research. Of course, we can and must summarize the article in the lead. But I worry about casting in stone competing theoretical constructs that may or may not overlap in one author vs. another author's writings. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed the "major". There are generally narratives on any major issue where the cause is debated. Krugman's piece on Geithner's book is an excellent read and he mentions two "narratives" in there, calling them such (the shadow banking crash and household debt narratives). Sowell's entire book is about the "government caused it" narrative.Farcaster (talk) 17:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Narratives? 

message: The decision to not bail out Lehman Brothers was closer than previously known, see this NYT's analysis. User:Fred Bauder Talk 06:44, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: NYT's article on Lehman Brothers

message: Hi. There is a step missing in this sequence: "It was triggered by a large decline in home prices, resulting in mortgage delinquencies". A decline in prices does not cause delinquencies. The decline in prices let to selling houses to those who normally would not be able to afford, which in turn resulted in morgage delinquencies. Rui Gabriel Correia (talk) 13:56, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That wasn't the sequence in this case.  The folks got higher priced houses due to lowered lending standards, then prices fell starting in 2006. Delinquencies happened thereafter as they walked away or were unable to refinance.Farcaster (talk) 14:20, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Whichever way it happened or what the stahes were, at the very least something is required in the sentence to not make it sound as if these two followed each other in direct sequence, ie, we can't say "decline in prices = delinquencies". If nothing else, at least something like "It was triggered by a large decline in home prices, ultimately  resulting in mortgage delinquencies". Rui Gabriel Correia (talk) 20:11, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

text: OK. I added "leading to..." per your suggestion. Inability to refinance is probably a good choice for the intermediate link in the chain, but is discussed in the body.Farcaster (talk) 22:02, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Non sequitur 

message: The article must incorporate the works: M. Jay Wells, "Why the Mortgage Crisis Happened" in IBD (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=487515&Ntt=jay+wells) and Paul Sperry, The Great American Bank Robbery: The Unauthorized Report About What Really Caused the Great Recession.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Details4details (talk • contribs) 20:23, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article has broad gaps 

message: It's 4 years since the bulk of this article was written and we've seen several popularizations in the movies. Perhaps it's time to think about the long term consequences and regulatory responses (or lack thereof)and how the economy can function when the bulls get out of control.
--16:53, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Time for an update on long term effects 

message: Seconding User:Mccainre.  Also, it would be good if an editor who knows this topic would do a little editing at Beazer .E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:49, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Beazer]]

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Subprime mortgage crisis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080210153132/http://money.cnn.com:80/2008/02/06/news/economy/loan_modification.ap/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote to http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/06/news/economy/loan_modification.ap/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080921230708/http://www.boston.com:80/business/articles/2008/02/15/subprime_lawsuits_on_pace_to_top_sl_cases/ to http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/02/15/subprime_lawsuits_on_pace_to_top_sl_cases/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081216074634/http://money.cnn.com:80/2008/12/01/news/ignored_warnings.ap/index.htm to http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/01/news/ignored_warnings.ap/index.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 21:15, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Dr. Gerardi has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:
We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.
We believe Dr. Gerardi has expertise on the topic of this article, since he has published relevant scholarly research:
*Reference 1: Kristopher S. Gerardi & Eric Rosenblatt & Paul S. Willen & Vincent W. Yao, 2012. "Foreclosure externalities: some new evidence," Public Policy Discussion Paper 12-5, Federal Reserve Bank of Boston.
*Reference 2: Christopher L. Foote & Kristopher S. Gerardi & Paul S. Willen, 2012. "Why did so many people make so many ex post bad decisions?: the causes of the foreclosure crisis," Public Policy Discussion Paper 12-2, Federal Reserve Bank of Boston.
*Reference 3: Kristopher Gerardi & Lauren Lambie-Hanson & Paul S. Willen, 2011. "Do borrower rights improve borrower outcomes?: evidence from the foreclosure process," Public Policy Discussion Paper 11-9, Federal Reserve Bank of Boston.
*Reference 4: Kristopher Gerardi & Harvey S. Rosen & Paul Willen, 2006. "Do households benefit from financial deregulation and innovation?: the case of the mortgage market," Public Policy Discussion Paper 06-6, Federal Reserve Bank of Boston.
*Reference 5: Adelino, Manuel & Frame, W. Scott & Gerardi, Kristopher S., 2014. "Economic & Financial Highlights Economists Inflation Project Publications Research Centers Seminars Small Business Focus The Effect of Large Investors on Asset Quality: Evidence from Subprime Mortgage," Working Paper 2014-4, Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta.
ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 19:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dr. Gerardi's comment on this article 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 21 external links on Subprime mortgage crisis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I wrote the following on MrOllie's talk page following his deletion of citations to a particular academic author. Mr. Ollie did not respond on substance but rather responded with ad hominem attacks. Please discuss so that we can reach consensus.
Dear MrOllie,
You recently reverted edits to articles about mortgage securitization, the GSEs, and the subprime mortgage crisis.  I believe these revisions reduced the substantive quality of the wikipedia articles and the edits should be restored.  My explanation is below.  I look forward to working with you amicably to reach consensus.  I believe that our goal should be to improve the article and cite to high quality, relevant sources whenever possible.
The edits you reverted included substantive improvements to the articles and cited an award-winning (see also here), widely-cited, widely-read academic journal article by a tenured professor at a leading research university with relevant expertise.
According to Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources:
″Many Wikipedia articles rely on scholarly material. When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources. . . .  Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses. . . . One can confirm that discussion of the source has entered mainstream academic discourse by checking the scholarly citations it has received in citation indexes.″
Thus, the source cited is among the most reliable sources under Wikipedia's definition of reliable sources.  You reverted it while suggesting that it might be reference-spamming, but given the relevance of the academic article to the wikipedia article, and the high quality of the academic article--demonstrated by its placement, its citations, its readership, its awards and the institutional affiliation and status of its author--it is not a form of spam but rather a legitimate effort to improve the article.
Please note that news articles in journals with an ideological valence, think tank reports and other materials are considered less reliable sources than academic research.  See Biased or Opinionated Sources  Many of the other sources in the article are editorials and think tank reports, not academic articles, and the inclusion of more high quality and up-to-date academic articles would therefore improve the article.
Many of the think tank reports cited in the article are written by organizations that receive financial sponsorship from private lenders and therefore have an interest in portraying the financial crisis as having been caused by government policies rather than by private financial institutions.  One of the few academic reports cited is years out of date, claims to provide a "comprehensive" bibliography of articles, but was published in 2012.  Much has been written in the ensuing 7 years--the article is no longer a comprehensive review, if it ever was. And indeed, the author claiming otherwise has a think-tank affiliation.
In addition, self-published material is generally considered an unreliable source, except when published by well-published academic experts.  Per Wikipedia policy, self-published material:
″are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.″"
You cited to self-published blog by a self-employed blogger / part time document reviewer which contains an off-wikipedia criticism of a scholar with whom he disagrees about the benefits of legal education. 
It may be helpful to understand the context of this post.  The blogger apparently posted this criticism as a form of revenge for having been made to appear foolish for making substantive mistakes about legal education and student loans --subjects about which the blogger purports to be an expert--even in a publication to which he has contributed. 
Citing to the post you cited violates wikipedia policies including Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks and [].  Indeed, the author of the post you cited acknowledged "that this post might be construed as an “off-wiki attack” ... that Wikipedians may perceive as harmful to their community."
Edits are supposed to be evaluated on substance based on established wikipedia policies about reliable sources, not based on snap decisions based on []
I recognize that my edits only added one source and that it would be better to include multiple sources.  If you would like to add additional high quality academic sources rather than deleting the few high quality citations that are in the wikipedia article, I would encourage you to do so.  I have reviewed Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest policies and I am in compliance.
 
Mbs6446 (talk) 17:00, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Deletion of citations to widely cited academic article by MrOllie based on Off-wiki personal attack; see wikipedia's page on reliable sources re: Mortgage Securitization