Talk:Polish People's Republic

message: The material added to this article by the various 145 users is useful and important, for which I thank them. I will fix up the English when I get time later loday. Adam 23:40, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
thread_title:  Old talk 

message: This article is filled with editorializing, and opinion after opinion after opinion without a fact in sight.  Poland is continually referred to as a satellite state of the Soviet Union, which I will buy into when the histories of the Western European countries all state that they were satellite states of the US.  
Here's a sentence that is a good example of complete editorializing: "Stalin was determined that Poland's new government would be controlled by the Communists, and therefore ultimately by him."
This sentence strikes anyone familiar with the early Cold War who is not in the John Birch Society as ridiculous.  Note the context as well - in Yalta, Stalin had decided, in early 1945, that Poland would be *personally* controlled by himself, personally.  This is stated as encylopediac fact.  Also, Adam Carr who wrote this presumably has a John Edward like ability to read Stalin's mind, since he tells us what Stalin was thinking.  I don't even know how to respond to this, it's just so ludicrous.
Anyhow, these nonsense editorializing opinions, where every Warsaw Pact country is a satellite state (unlike the free countries of Western Europe, where most of the blue collar workers had somehow been duped into joining the Communist parties there), where the Red Army is an occupying force, while in Western Europe, the US military presence is a friendly ally protecting the country from the Evil Empire (and perhaps even its own local agents - the countries working class) and so on and so forth.
Perhaps all this editorializing by Mr. Know-It-All Carr is what took the space of some relevant facts.  Like neglecting to mention that the "Polish" land Russia "annexed" had been "Polish" for only 21 years when Russia had ceded it in Brest-Livotsk under the threat of invasion, a giveaway of Russian land that practically caused a mutiny against Lenin (with the Politbuto, Central Committee and country).  Also not mentioned are the Vatican's attempts to help in destabilization of the government, just that the Polish government began "persecuting" the Catholic Church.  John F. Kennedy had to swear he would not take orders from the Vatican when he ran for president in the US decades later, yet here was the Vatican ordering Catholics to withdraw from the Polish government. Señor NPOV 14:07, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: If you're going to revert his edits, surely you could address the issues at hand better than that. The version you reverted to is riddled with POV problems and the changes improved them at several points. Everyking 01:10, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

text: I'm not supporting anybody or any particular version per se, I'm just noting that this article is POV (as I said once before when this was nominated for featured status) and needs balance. Simply reverting the changes and dismissing the talk comment wasn't helpful. Everyking 01:37, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  changes 

message: This article will soon be splitted into several subarticles. See Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Periodization. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:21, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: The content was moved to History of Poland (1945-1989). This article is named a fomer country and thus it is supposed to be about it. History is just a subarticle - as good as it was, and now under a correct name. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:54, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, all right, I didn't notice the history article. Everyking 17:06, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split 

message: I rv anon move (cause it didn't use move function). I wonder, however, if current name is truly the proper one? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:01, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: Additional material:
* 'to do' list for economy: old 'to do' can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Polish demographics and economy under Communism
* 'culture and society' section at History_of_Poland_%281945-1989%29#Changes_in_Polish_society
--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:01, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economy and culture 

message: Needs serious beefing up. Tony 23:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Economy section 

message: This also needs ome beeinf up. And a sep. article on the 1952 constitution. Hypnos
:Both are on my 'to do' list, but there is only that much I can do in 24h a day :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Government and politics 

message: The real name was Polish People's Republic~. polska (Polish) is an adjective, like in the names of Soviet republics.
Xx236 06:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  People's Republic of Poland 

message: That paragraph seems a little too enthusiastic. His election was definitely a big event, but calling him the "de facto leader of Poland" is just hyperbole. Perhaps "spiritual leader"? Also: "... he encouraged the creation of an 'alternative Poland' of social institutions independent of the government..." - how exactly did he do that? Any citations? --24.58.13.127 21:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  History: John Paul II 

message: This article refers to "the PSL" three times without ever expanding or explaining the acronym, nor providing a wiki-link for it!  Silverhelm 01:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PSL 

message: The map at the top of the article  is quite distorted and could be improved. The article Poland has a much better locator map, but shows Poland as a member of the EU. Robert Hiller 06:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: After the destruction of the Second Polish Republic in 1939, Polish territories either became part of the General Government or parts of other countries. This article says that the PRL began in 1952. What existed between 1945-1952? I mean "officially". Was it Poland, or was there some other constructed name? Or is the article mistaken and the People's Republic of Poland began earlier? I'm aware of the de facto situation, just curious as to what the spin might have been. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The name of PRL was estabilished by the Polish constitution of 1952. The question of the name of the country before that is an interesting one. Technically, I don't think that Second Polish Republic was an official name (like in France); it was created for help with historiography. PRL is often applied retroactively, as it sounds somewhat better than "communist Poland", which begun with PKWN Manifesto of 1944. Amusingly, PKWN Manifesto claimed to respect March Constitution of Poland (of 1921), so did the Small Constitution of 1947 which used the term 'Rzeczpospolita Polska'. Ludowa was added only in 1952. Nonetheless nobody could seriously claim that communist government of 1944-1952 (and particularly of 1947-1952) had much in common with the pre-1939 government... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  07:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Polish Statehood 

message: Inflicted on Polish population inflicted by this Soviet creation ?--Molobo (talk) 16:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Does anybody know the death toll 

message: Why,in the name of all that is descent does Wikipedia insist on linking the Nazi Flag with Poland. Why is the Nazi flag posted on this article as if it were the flag of Poland???
What kind of insult is this ? Please remove the Nazi flag from this article.*********
:Ever hear of the Nazi occupation that caused a big war in Europe, 1939-1945? ukexpat (talk) 04:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Problems 

message: You have to show undoubtable evidents and proofs when saying such LIES
"Years later, the Communists revealed that the first two questions had passed only by means of massive fraud on their part.[citation needed]"
and not to vomit on the article without no proof. History is the facts and not the falsification.
147.102.141.124 (talk) 12:12, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Refs added. No serious modern historian disputes the massive fraud committed by Polish communists (aided by their Soviet supervisors) in 1946 and 1947. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  17:59, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  History 

message: Does anyone care to start "Law of the People's Republic of Poland"? 
My curiosity was triggered by a novel of Joanna Chmielewska. I don't remember neither the title nor plot, but in one episode one guy was scared at night when someone or something big and black rushed upon him, and he killed him/it with halberd. In the morning it turned out to be a hog. A confused policeman stubbornly tried to incriminate the "illegal slaughter of livestock" or something similar. Quick google search "illegal slaughter"+Poland also shows "illegal slaughter of a cow" and the concept of "illegal slaughter" during WWII rationing in Britain
Can someone fill the two redlinks? - Altenmann >t 01:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Law of PRL 

message: Regarding this  - it's not just one source who gives this "opinion" (this is as much "opinion" as me saying that Mr. Ed was a horse) but thousands ; 5440 hits, or 5260 hits if we remove references to Napoleon's Duchy of Warsaw .
Andy, I usually appreciate your edits and I think most of them are correct and are instrumental in keeping out all sorts of stupid nonsense out of thew Wikipedia. However in this particular case, you happen to be incorrect - "satellite state" is the best designation for this state, and if that's not in the template, then the template should be simply changed. Thanks.
VolunteerMarek 00:49, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, just add 5 o 6 reliable ones of that thousands of sources, and problem solved.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 21:57, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, it was a satellite state - literally thousands of sources refer to it as such 

message: Let's see what I find in Google Books, just to be on the safe side.
* "name of the state, the Polish People's republic (Polska rzeczpospolita ludowa, Prl)" (Wrobel)
* "name of the Polish state, Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa (People's Republic of Poland)" (Mazierska)
* "very name of the Polish People's Republic (Polska rzeczpospolita ludowa)" (Cavanagh)
* "identity as Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa (Polish Peoples' Republic)" (Bodman Rae)
* "in 1948 Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa: People's Republic of Poland" (Applebaum)
* "Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa (Polish People's Republic)" (Piotrowski)
* "the PRL (Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa [Polish People's Republic])" (Szczerbiak)
* "PRL — Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa — Polish People's Republic" (Berman)
Seems just about right. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 03:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, somehow this one slipped by me as well. No objections, though. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:12, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved with two votes 

message: Regular editors might look at Polish People's Republic#Demographics. It contains three piped section links to other articles, to material which isn't there any more. (Wildbot has flagged these at the top of Talk): 
* Minorities in Poland after the War
* Changes in Polish society between 1945 and 1989
* Historical demographics of Poland - after the Second World War
These links go to the respective articles, but the sections aren't there. Maybe these links are fixable; if not they could be removed. EdJohnston (talk) 00:09, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article has non-working links 

message: I changed the former label "Satellite State of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact state during the Cold War" by separating it to make it more easy-to-read. I also omitted the "during the Cold War" part of the former label due to its redundancy, as the Warsaw Pact existed until the end of the Cold War. Thus, its existence during the Cold War is already implied.
If there are any digressions please let me know.
BUjjsp (talk) 02:38, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox "Status" section 

message: SocialismGreece100, you have been attempting to reverse the previous move of this page in your edits here, here, here, and here.  Please seek consensus for such a large change here before undertaking it on your own.  Also, please do not move or rename a page by copying/pasting its content, as this method does not retain the edit history. Nick Number (talk) 15:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  unilateral reversal of move via copy-paste 

message: The current predecessor in the Polish People's Republic infobox is the Second Republic of Poland. I think that we should add the General Government as second predecessor and keep the Second Republic of Poland as the first predecessor because from 1939–1945, the General Government existed in the territory of the Second Republic of Poland. I think we should keep the Second Republic of Poland as the first predecessor because the General Government was illegal by international law, I also think we should add a note ( {{efn|group="note"]] )  containing the information on how the General Government was illegal by international law. Elevatorrailfan (talk) 20:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Predecessor and successor edit proposal. 

message: Socialistguy (talk) 17:04, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: No, per MOS:ISMCAPS. Communism, liberalism, socialism, conservatism, revanchism, marxism...no capitalisation for ideologies. RGloucester  — ☎ 17:57, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shouldn't the references to Communism be with capital Cs? 

message: I've removed the "atheist state" category as inappropriate.  While the communist regime certainly intended to eventually achieve an atheist state, as confirmed by the cited sources, it never actually became an atheist state. As noted in the referenced main article Polish anti-religious campaign:   And the lack of success in achieving an atheist state was also noted:  
Xenophrenic (talk) 20:06, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed. Aspirations are not reality. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:09, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent category 

message: Under the 'History' tab, paragraph 5, line 5 Gomułka is referred to only as Gomułka. There is no prior introduction as to who he is. 2601:240:E:A36A:8487:BCDA:D208:83E5 (talk) 01:58, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Done I was going to mark this as "Unclear", but it took me a good few minutes of searching to figure out who you were talking about. I found a mention of him in paragraph 4, and have placed his full name there. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 02:14, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2017 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I know that people hate the Soviets, especially Polish people, however the article seems to saying, whenever possible, that the Soviets imposed communism on Poland. Yes, its true... but does it need to be mentioned every time? --TIAYN (talk) 10:54, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: The neighbours Czech people introduced Communism themselves, but Poles didn't. Many readers see Central Europe, Eastern Europe   or Emerging markets as a whole. Poland is different. Xx236 (talk) 13:05, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Soviet hate 

message: === The party's most successful accomplishment ===
Communist propaganda. Warsaw was reconstructed by the whole nation, including prisoners nad German slave workers. Illiteracy was fought by teachers, who had different political views. The adults had to read propaganda texts. Xx236 (talk) 13:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. If you feel anything needs changes then you are free to add them. However, the lead is constructed perfectly. It was the Communists who fought illiteracy by the program installed with the help of Hilary Minc and early Stalinist officials and it was them who pressured on rebuilding Warsaw, even with forced labour and in different architectural style. There has to be a true positive aspect in the article. Pre-war authorities did not do significant work to reduce it somehow so it wasn't the teachers only the government. Secondly, I do not see how the text you referred to is ambiguous. A fight can include protests in this case. Oliszydlowski, 19:05, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: And your sources are? Do you really believe that Warsaw people weren't able to reconstruct their houses without Communist instructions? Technically the reconstruction was controlled by the :pl:Biuro Odbudowy Stolicy, which committed many errors. Xx236 (talk) 09:28, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Controversies 

message: Communist propaganda. Warsaw was reconstructed by the whole nation, including prisoners nad German slave workers. Illiteracy was fought by teachers, who had different political views. The adults had to read propaganda texts. Xx236 (talk) 13:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''The party's most successful accomplishment'' 

message: The phrase is ambiguous. Either a Communist claims that the party fought for democracy and welfare or an anti-Communist believes that Poles fought for democracy and welfare fighting the Communists. Xx236 (talk) 13:12, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''constant internal struggles for democracy and better living conditions'' 

message: The biggest aglomeration was industrial Upper Silesia with Zagłębie. Their symbol was the Śląsko-Dąbrowski Bridge in Warsaw.Xx236 (talk) 13:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  followed by industrial Lodz and cultural Kraków 

message: Poland was devastated by Particulates and acid rains. Black Triangle (region) was polluted. Kraków buildings were destoied by acid rains. Chemical pollution Carbon disulfide attacked human brains.Xx236 (talk) 13:30, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ecology 

message: Either we write about the name, so 1952-1989, or about the system 1944-1989. I'm not sure if 1947 is important.Xx236 (talk) 06:08, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''was a country that existed from 1947''  

message: I'm not sure if such name was used by people in Poland. Socialism was the system in Sweden. There was even no socialist party.Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi. If you feel anything needs changes then you are free to add them. However, the lead is constructed perfectly. It was the Communists who fought illiteracy by the program installed with the help of Hilary Minc and early Stalinist officials and it was them who pressured on rebuilding Warsaw, even with forced labour and in different architectural style. There has to be a true positive aspect in the article. Pre-war authorities did not do significant work to reduce it somehow so it wasn't the teachers only the government. Secondly, I do not see how the text you referred to is ambiguous. A fight can include protests in this case. Oliszydlowski, 19:05, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: And your sources are? Do you really believe that Warsaw people weren't able to reconstruct their houses without Communist instructions? Technically the reconstruction was controlled by the :pl:Biuro Odbudowy Stolicy, which committed many errors. Xx236 (talk) 09:28, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''the socialist government'' ? 

message: Autor, ktory odrzucił moja poprawkę "mija się z prawdą". Informacja że PRL istniała od 1947 jest fałszem. Po raz pierwszy nazwa ta pojawiła się w Konstytucji z 22 lipca 1952. NIECH CZŁOWIEK TEN WSKAŻE JAKIKOLWIEK DOKUMENY sprzed 1952 zawierający nazwę "Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa" albo niech mnie przeprosi i przywróci moją poprawkę. 
--Wi-ko (talk) 11:05, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  PRL was not established in 1947 but in 1952 

message: Whilst I'm not particularly fond of this IP's other edits, I do understand the switch from country to state, and would support it. As for why, the 'country' is Poland...and the state is the 'People's Republic'. The Polish People's Republic was one state that governed the country of Poland, just as the present Republic of Poland does the same. Using 'country' in the way it is being used now conflates the PRL with the much older concept of the Polish nation, and for this reason I'd suggest that it be changed. RGloucester  — ☎ 17:32, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: I wanted to apologize for the revert, I visited most of the articles edited by the IP . If the change has already been discussed and there's consensus, I don't have any problem with the wording. --Jamez42 (talk) 22:17, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Country or state? 

message: An editor keeps changing the era in the infobox from Cold War to 20th Century in this article and some others.  Whilst it is true that the Polish People's Republic existed in the 20th Century, I think that Cold War is more useful because it is more specific and relevant to the topic of this communist state. Toddy1 (talk) 18:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, The Cold War is more specific and defining.--PRL Dreams (talk) 11:29, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Era in the infobox 

message: "Throughout its existence, economic hardships and social unrest were common almost in every decade" - this sentence's citation is a website called "Polen voor Netherlands", which seems to be a random WordPress blog - in any case not a rigorous scientific journal, or a respectable news organization, in fact it seems to be self-published. As such, it should be considered an unreliable source. I propose for the sentence to be removed, as it stands now it could be very well considered editorializing, or find a reputable source to back up that claim... 
178.218.236.111 (talk) 18:10, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the source is unreliable, however the sentence and the content within it are very much obvious. This can be linked to the number of strikes and pacification in every decade going back to the 1956 protests. Oliszydlowski (talk) 02:59, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd argue that the part about social unrest is true, however the part about economic hardships is untrue, since there were both periods of prosperity, as well as periods of hardships. Maybe change it to "Throughout its existence social unrest was common almost in every decade."?178.218.236.111 (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is unreliable, and the sentence is a nothingburger. You can say there was social unrest in the US. Or in Poland after 1989 or before the war. Nearly in every country you can find a social unrest event every decade.--PRL Dreams (talk) 13:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: The "prosperity" can be only described in relative terms, as improvements due to salary rises and other temporary measures. Due to systemic issues of the planned economy, the system was unbalanced and under-achieving throughout the whole period of PRL. I agree with  that the disputed statement is a valid summary of the contents of the article, as literally in every decade you can find at last one economic crisis leading to a social unrest. Cloud200 (talk) 08:42, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreliable source - "Throughout its existence, economic hardships and social unrest were common almost in every decade." 

message: Obviously Wikipedia strives for neutrality, but some parts of the lead sounds
a little strange. Particulary this sentence
"Despite this, some groundbreaking achievements were established during the tenure of the Polish People's Republic such as; improved living conditions, rapid industrialization, urbanization, access to universal health care, and higher education. The Polish People's Republic also implemented policies that virtually eliminated homelessness[5] and established a job guarantee. As a result Poland's population almost doubled between 1947 and 1989. Some of the party's most remarkable accomplishments were the complete rebuilding of ruined Warsaw after World War II and creating a fully literate population.[6][7]"
I feel like this goes a little bit overboard. What is also troubling is that I'm not seeing that much of the negative parts, or criticism in general of the Polish People's Republic being brought up in the lead, compared with the positive parts here. The existence of positive weasel words like" groundbreaking", "virtually" and "remarkably" also make me further question the neutrality of the passage. There's an additional sentence in the end, stating that the "...Polish People's Republic had one of the lowest crime rates in the world." Again, I question if something like this really belongs in the lead. Rousillon (talk) 21:52, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: It does sound very much like someone's revisionist history; maybe maybe now with Prigozhin's troll farms no longer operational, it may be worth trying to revert it to something neutral? 74.83.1.69 (talk) 16:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

text: I agree that the lead needs some restructuring. It isn't on point and includes more trivial information. Merangs (talk) 14:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

text: Yes, I don't think it should be completely removed but it should be trimmed, some is bit too trivial for lead. Mellk (talk) 01:26, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality in lead 

message: These government descriptions do not make any sense at all, and fail to state the defining features of these states. What does "Unitary Marxist–Leninist one-party socialist republic under a totalitarian Stalinist dictatorship" mean? And what I find extremely irritable is that you guys refuse to link to the article that actually defines the main features of this states: unified power, democratic centralism, highest organ of state power, single branch of government, leading role of the party, guiding ideology of the state, class system, political system el cetra and instead make up a convoluted mess of government description. Have you guys even bothered to read the communist state article?
# First, what is the article communist state about? It is about the form of government of these states. YOu are refusing to link to the article that deals with the forms of government of these states. That is problematic!
# Secondly, by unitary to you mean Unitary power, the principle of political power in these states? The one thing that differentiates their state structures from liberal democracies?
# Thirdly, where in the "form of government" do you guys state that is organised on the principles of democratic centralism?¨
# Fourthly, where in the "form of government" text do you guys mention that these states have one branch of government represented by the highest organ of state power?
# Fiftly, it seems that you're definition of "form of government" does not even define the main differences between a communist state system and a liberal state system
# Sixthly, unitary state? You do know that there were no limits on the highest organ of state power in any sense, from the federal USSR and Yugoslavia to China, right? These states might have been federal and unitary, but the highest organ of state power was still unlimited on what it could decide. It also complicates the situation that neither the CPSU nor the LCY was federal, so, for instance, defining the structure as federal when the party structure was unitary would be insane!
# What is the defining features of a communist state? READ the article. None of the defining features are mention in you're convoluted wording on the matter. What does "totalitarian" say about a form of government? Nothing. Putin's Russia and China are both authoritarian, but their form of government is completely different. The word is a description about the effects of a government, but is not a description of the form of government... This is basic political science! --TheUzbek (talk) 09:23, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Government type