Template talk:Libertarianism sidebar

message: Before even touching Ron Paul and some of the newer additions to the 'people' section, is there a source somewhere on Calvin Coolidge, career politician, US vp, US president -- self-identifying as a libertarian? Did some of his contemporaries call him a libertarian or consider him part of the libertarian movement? If so, had any of them addressed the paradoxical nature of being an anti-state head of state? How about an anti-capitalist laissez faire capitalist -- considering the idea of calling 'free market capitalism' libertarian was about a century apart from his year of birth? Finx (talk) 16:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Are we seriously listing US presidents as libertarian thinkers?

message: Direct quote from Ayn Rand:
:All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies who are anarchists instead of leftist collectivists (sic); but anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet libertarians combine capitalism and anarchism. That’s worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. Anarchists are the scum of the intellectual world of the Left, which has given them up. So the Right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the libertarian movement.
I would disagree on three levels, I oversimplify/overstate just to make the point:  
*She was probably speaking of the common meaning of the time, not the major new meaning / strand which she was influential in creating 
*She helped create a major current meaning/strand, and thus is relevant 
*If a movement considers her influential to it, she is relevant to it, regardless.  
Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I see your point. Reading through it again, I guess she acknowledged the influence herself, even though she bitterly denounced the ideology.  Finx (talk) 07:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like she was talking about libertarians and the libertarian movement, not libertarianism. – S. Rich (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: She was denouncing neoliberal libertarianism as an ideology, because she saw it as co-opting the language and rhetoric of anarchism -- which it was, on the most superficial level. She thought that was disgraceful and unworthy of her ideas, because she despised leftists and anarchists particularly. Also, she was a hardcore 'statist' by her own description -- believed in a very strong and forceful 'big government' to maintain the capitalist order she wanted. There's more quotes on that page I linked to. Finx (talk) 17:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ayn Rand should probably be removed, given that she denounced all self-described libertarianism 

message: Stephan Kinsella seems a bit obscure to be included in a list of Libertarian people.  Is there any evidence that he matters at all to the Libertarian school of thought?  I am removing him per wp:BRD.  Bonewah (talk) 19:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Stephan Kinsella? 

message: As it stood before my edition this sidebar was mostly biased towards right wing libertarianism or as we outside of the US call it, towards economic liberalism or neoliberalism. The libertarianism sidebar has to go in agreement with the main wikipedia libertarianism article and not with the particular taste of a single user who onbly comes to edit here. That or else the users who want to keep out of this template things like libertarian socialism and libertarian marxism are free to propose instead a "right libertarianism" sidebar or a "Libertarianism according to the US libertarian Party" sidebar.--Eduen (talk) 06:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Eduen, could you please be more specific about what's wrong?  I ask because I see libertarian socialism and libertarian Marxism on the sidebar, as well as anti-statism, counter-economics, agorism, mutualism, Bakunin, Bookchin, Chomsky, de Cleyre, etc.  Do you want something added to the sidebar?  Or do you just not like right-libertarian ideas displayed at all?  -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 14:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Left or right, i think that Stephen Kinsella is too obscure to be included in the list, per my objection above. Bonewah (talk) 15:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Maybe we should create a separate sidebar for American "Libertarianism", which has very little in common with the word "Libertarianism" as understood in Europe. It's entirely contradictory and incorrect to have, for example, Goldman and Hayek listed in the same category.
2607:FEA8:A6A0:1345:416:DA84:DC26:B0F2 (talk) 05:08, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Correcting right wing US centric bias on this sidebar 

message: Given father Ron Paul is on the list, I believe adding Rand would be good.Bettering the Wiki (talk) 06:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding Rand Paul? 

message: I see not reason for the removal of the file:Torch.svg from the sidebar as it is a common symbol of identification for Libertarianism. The majority of political sidebars have an identifying graphic. Strangely enough, if I remember correctly, the image was added to the "Liberalism" page at the same time as it was removed from the Libertarianism sidebar. If the inclusion of this logo in the Libertarianism sidebar is contested, please discuss here. --St.HocusPocus (talk) 02:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi St.HocusPocus, the only way for the torch to be used is if someone provides sources proving that it is representative of both left and right Libertarianism, otherwise it needs to go. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 08:51, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: In searching Google images for "libertarianism" I did not find the torch. As it is connected with the Statue of Liberty, it has American connotations. Unless we can come up with some RS that connects the particular torch to libertarianism in general, I suggest leaving off of the sidebar.  – S. Rich (talk) 23:13, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: You realize the Statue of Liberty is a copy of an identical statue in France, and was given to America by the French? And that the anthropomorphic personification of Liberty predates both of them, and is not exclusively or even originally American (e.g. Liberty Leading the People, Liberty (goddess)). This crusade to abolish the torch from this page (without any suggestion that another image would be better; just the abolition of this image for its own sake because it's sooo terrible) smacks misinformed anti-Americanism. The Human Rights sidebar had a similar fight earlier, but at least that editor was pushing an alternative, albeit a terrible one (the "International Human Rights logo", the winner of some proprietary contest to come up with such a logo). --Pfhorrest (talk) 00:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Pfhorrest, unless you produce a reliable source clearly stating that a random picture of a torch is representative of all variants of Libertarianism (not just the U.S. Libertarian Party), then this is a clear violation of WP:OR and will be removed. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 02:17, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I, anti-American? Hardly. The Statue_of_Liberty#Construction_in_France is not a copy, but is real and only McCoy. That said, we do not have any RS which links the torch image to libertarianism, let alone to the American Libertarian Party. – S. Rich (talk) 02:33, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with S. Rich: "we do not have any RS which links the torch image to libertarianism" --- See: WP:Verify --- I've gone ahead and removed the image per this discussion. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:41, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Use of Torch.svg in sidebar  

message: Looking at the template's "People" tab, there are around 27 out of 41 names (slightly more than 2.5/4 names) who are explicitly Left-libertarians/socialists/anarcho-communist. Without knowing or reading about the individuals who are concerned, one can clearly see their political affiliation or ideology just by looking after a Template for anarcho-communism or Left-libertarianism. Prominent Libertarians such as Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises,  John Hospers, Henry Hazlitt, followers of the Austrian or Chicago school of economics are not mentioned despite being very influential in the field of economics. This is not to mention other anarcho-capitalists that could be mentioned but shouldn't, just as the anarcho-communists and communists also probably shouldn't be mentioned in the "People" tab (such as Nestor Makhno). Since this is about libertarianism not anarchism. I'm going to be adding the names I mentioned above. --Los Perros pueden Cocinar (talk) 21:26, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  More Right-libertarians? 

message: Why is Aristotelianism in the "Historical background" section? JulianMW8 (talk) 09:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aristotelianism? 

message: I believe that John Locke should be added to this sidebar, his significant influence on right-libertarianism, in my eyes, makes him a strong candidate. Uglytriangle999 (talk) 14:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Locke