Talk:Demographic history of the Vilnius region

message: Tzarist official sign in Vilnius "Speaking Lithuanian is strictly forbidden" (second half of the 19th century)
- this is a fake as it's written according to Russian grammar rules adopted only in 1918  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.125.6.1 (talk) 14:09, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Fake

message: The statement referred by Aleksandravičius, Kulakauskas is laughable. Just look into the table: vilna gubernia: 4.9% of russians recorded. An astonishing russification, I must say. mikka (t) 23:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Scolarly source of what? That 4.9% is a rather pitiful demonstration of Russifiation? mikka (t) 00:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

text: Molobo: You are a Pole (I think). How are you imaginig a Pole writing himself as a Russian? mikka (t) 00:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kulakauskas ref 

message: It was relatively simple to Polonize Slavic Lithuanians (Bielorus), but not ethnic Lithuanians.
Xx236 09:58, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And..? //Halibutt 11:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And?... that's how you come up with examples like Gabriel Narutowicz, and probably Jozef Pilsudski too boot! Dr. Dan 17:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: ...and Algirdas Brazauskas, and Dan Quayle and Arnold Schwarzenegger. So..? //Halibutt 11:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Both being who, Xx236? Dr. Dan 01:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: And?... that's how you come up with examples like Gabriel Narutowicz, and probably Jozef Pilsudski too boot! Dr. Dan 17:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Also, Lithuanian authorities often argued that the large majority of Polish-speaking people were in fact Polonized Lithuanians. However, there are no proofs for such stance 

message: I'm sure Dan will differ on this, but I find the above "discussion" disappointingly useless and in fact harmful. Its only result is further escalation of the antagonisms between individual editors. I suggest we all give it a break for some time, and engage in some more fruitful collaboration instead. --Lysytalk 21:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: How about a fresh start then ? Without all the digressions ? --Lysytalk 21:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: What does a fresh start mean? Ignoring the matter now that it has come to a head? Going to someones talk page, to hide from the opportunity to resolve the matter in the open? The debate is not about digressions, it is about solving the problem right here, right now. It's about time! Dr. Dan 22:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The discussion above clearly shows it does not lead to any solution. It's even not clear what is the problem that you're trying to solve in the first place. If you're advocating against Piłsudski, fine, but this is wrong place. It's good to know how the ethnic composition of this troubled region changed, and the fact that Poles used it to justify their actions after WWI should not make us censor the article. Apparently for many people this information remained unknown (see recent edits by User:Hundred but there are more examples), so it is very useful for them to have the information. --Lysytalk 05:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

text: The change of the title of the article already makes a significant difference. Although the article was started IMHO, to justify the creation of the Republic of Central Lithuania, it may now take another direction with more information that is less one-sided. Dr. Dan 14:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not able nor willing to judge why the article was stated. I'd certainly be happy to see it expanded beyond the limits imposed by its previous title. --Lysytalk 15:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion to pause 

message: Hello,
after asking for help here on the Language Reference Desk, I came to the conclusion that the table giving the demographics for the entire governate in 1897 correspond with the numbers given here : .  That is the site to which the article linked.  So that is good and I even added the total number of people.  However, not this page but another page gives us the results for the city itself: .  I wanted to link to this as a source instead but... the percentages given are really different!  So what I did now is : no source for the city itself, until we can sort this out.Evilbu 15:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where do those 1897 results for the city of Vilnius come from anyway? 

message: The article informs about Vilna Governorate, without Vilna region and later goes to Vilnius region. A serious article should start with a definition, what is Vilnius region. Xx236 (talk) 16:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  What is ''Vilnius region''? 

message: 100-200 means "I don't know how many". Xx236 (talk) 11:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  About 100–200 thousands colonists from Poland  

message: Do we need German Nazi sources?Xx236 (talk) 11:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for the notice. I don't things are that clear here, as some comments would suggest. I've consulted the corresponding article Der Große Brockhaus in German Wikipedia. Firstly, Brockhaus Enzyklopädie (and bearing that edition in mind) was definitely not a 'Nazi source' as some have called it. The cited edition of the encyclopedia is said to have been mostly completed during the Weimar Republic (the time for write-and-post-encyclopedias like Wikipedia wasn't ripe yet!). Interestingly, the article there claims the last (20th) vol. was published in 1934. An additional (21st) vol. was more reflective of the (early) Nazi 'Zeitgeist'. The editorial editorial staff of the 15th edition of the encyclopedia is in general said to have withstood the pressure by the Nazi authorities. The section in DE-wiki on 'Contemporary reception' mentions, that contemporary authors like Anja Zum Hingst have given positive recognition for the 15th edition (wertet in ihrer Diplomarbeit die 15. Auflage positiv.). Hence, disqualifying the source as a whole - note volumes printed before the Nazi takeover - would seem an exaggeration. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog  (woof!) 14:00, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

text: This seems another case of user Miacek trying to push for publications printed under Nazi regime  that are of dubious reliability. I suggest that he ought to stop this. I am all for contemporary Lithuanian publications regarding this(proparly attributed) but Nazi sources are out of the question.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It seems more like another case of ignoring a pretty good argument as to why it is a legitimate source as opposed to being a "Nazi" source. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:51, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

text: It would be ridiculous to claim that any of these censuses were taken without bias and weren't skewed to some extent. Their inclusion basically has historical value, nothing more, nothing less. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:50, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: There is academic book  Eberhardt P., "Przemiany narodowościowe na Litwie", Warszawa 1997.Xx236 (talk) 13:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

text: There is also an English book "Ethnic groups and population changes in twentieth-century Central-Eastern Europe: history, data, and analysis".Xx236 (talk) 12:24, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

text: I have a copy of Ethnic groups and population changes in twentieth-century Central-Eastern Europe: by Eberhardt and the data from the 1931 Polish census published by the US government. What data do you need, don't be shy, just ask me, maybe I can help here.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:04, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Eberhardt discusses the results of censuses. As it's written above all those cenśuses were skewed and the numbers have only historical values, so Eberhrdt's estimates should be included. Xx236 (talk) 09:04, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Xx236, there are lots of academic books floating around out there. What does this book published in Warsaw, in 1997, have to do with the current discussion about "nazi" sources,  that you started? Dr. Dan (talk) 22:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  German Nazi sources 

message: In regard to this edit . Yes the source does state that the census was likely biased in that it magnified the number of Poles. But the rest of the text goes on to say that the numbers "constructed" by Lithuanians in 1939 were a "gross exaggeration in favor of their own people in the city"  - so why isn't that being included? Especially since the relevant section is right there. Furthermore, the rest of the text suggests that the "magnification of the number of Poles" essentially had to do with counting Polonized Jews as Poles.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The source is not terribly well written. It notes that the Polish census was inaccurate, but doesn't explain how, exactly; it only mentions that Poles were interested in proving that they were the majority - but it doesn't say they weren't. Interestingly, the source is also quite damning of the following Lithuanian census, whose figures are "a gross exaggeration in favor of their own people". I tried rewriting the relevant parts of our article per the source. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  10:28, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

text: Ah, I see your point - the source is talking about a report submitted in 1941 to Einsatzgruppen] by the Lithuanians, not the 1939 Census. My mistake. The heading of this section is perfectly accurate.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I hope that my new wording is acceptable and alleviates the confusion. But I have some questions about the 1939 census below. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  07:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cherry picking info from sources, while ignoring other info in the same source is POV pushing too 

message: I am having trouble even confirming that it occurred in December of 1939.  refers to a Lithuanian census of February 1940. Could somebody expand this section with a good reference as to the date, and the results? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk  07:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lithuanian census of 1939 - or 1940? 

message: I have reviewed the data regarding the census several times. More I look at it less it makes any sense. I have inserted the map of Ober Ost in order to show some clarity but it is not enough. First of all the author of that section, and probably the only one who saw that Polish written book in 1919, mentions that this data relates to the whole occupied Lithuania. If it relates to only to the centarl part of Ober Ost then the total population was 1920000. Out of which it has to be at least 1500000 Lithuanians (see 1897 Russian census). That gives about 78pc of Lithuanians. If census covers the central and southern parts then the total was 2640000. Out of which it has to be 1500000 Lithuanians (57pc). Now we have 58pc Poles which makes no sense at all!
Could anybody provide more reliable source in respect of the 1916 German Census, preferable German? Or at least could anybody provide a scaned copy of part of Brensztejn book where these details were mentioned in order to accertain the facts?
As at the moment the data have very dubious value.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnplastic (talk • contribs) 18:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  1916 German Census 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Demographic history of the Vilnius region. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070929124411/http://www.stat.gov.lt/en/pages/view/?id=1732 to http://www.stat.gov.lt/en/pages/view/?id=1732
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110718090606/http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?10PLAAAA07696 to http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?10PLAAAA07696
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:20, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Re . Please explain what exactly is wrong with this map. Yes, the map is based on census. Yes it's a "Polish map". But the map also very closely corresponds to what we know of demographics of the region. If this map is somehow "wrong" please provide sources to the contrary. Please use this space here to discuss here rather than edit warring.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:54, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Map 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Demographic history of the Vilnius region. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20071006024254/http://viduramziu.lietuvos.net/etno/etno19a-en.htm to http://viduramziu.lietuvos.net/etno/etno19a-en.htm
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070309062110/http://members.chello.pl:80/g.krupinski/family_names.htm to http://members.chello.pl/g.krupinski/family_names.htm
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20050509161513/http://www.wszpwn.com.pl:80/dokumenty/wos/tab.doc to http://www.wszpwn.com.pl/dokumenty/wos/tab.doc
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20050414015701/http://www.std.lt/puslapiai/vasv/vskaiciais/05_gyventojai.pdf to http://www.std.lt/puslapiai/vasv/vskaiciais/05_gyventojai.pdf
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 23:53, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to  on Demographic history of the Vilnius region. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add  after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add  to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive {newarchive} to http://www.vilniaus-r.lt/index1.php
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:42, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Demographic history of the Vilnius region. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050406222013/http://www1.std.lt/htm-psl/vasv/english.htm to http://www1.std.lt/htm-psl/vasv/english.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:04, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified