Talk:Genchi Genbutsu

message: Genshi Genbutsu is japanese language it is probably why it has been identified as nonsense. Candau 08:29, 3 November 2006
:Such comments aren't necessary.  Please refrain from making comments on Wikipedia unless they are useful. Nicholas SL Smithchatter 16:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: So what was your comment? Necessary? useful? Might want to check the timestamp in Candau's sig, ya doofus. 74.73.27.39 (talk) 18:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text:  Agreed, I have removed all but the first reference to the MBWA article and also a sentence that appeared to suggest a different person coined that phrase (which should be in the MBWA article if anywhere). All that's necessary here is to note that the comparison has been made, further details of MBWA should be added to that article, not this one.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.82.248 (talk) 02:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Falling for a troll, hook, line, and sinker

message: As I understand it, gen-chi and gen-butsu overlap the five elements of the Go-gen ("5 gen") system of problem solving from a management perspective. 5-gen was pioneered by Tomozō Kobata-san Managing by Fact: The Results-Oriented Approach to Quality," Productivity Press, 1995 at Denso, which is a major Toyota supplier. The approach is indeed broadly respected in the Toyota umbrella companies.
Two additional concepts are the principles of gen-jitsu (the context or situation) and gen-soku (standards, practices and rules). There is a broader wrapper, gen-ri, which is an overall theory development based on the other gen. Gen-butsu is indeed "the actual thing, and "gen-ba," the actual place. These five together form the 5-gen problem-solving framework.
Kobata-san describes the framework in painstaking detail in his book, with many examples. Much of it is about the manager going down to the gen-ba and standing and watching work in progress, followed by approaching the worker and asking questions, and maybe even trying some of the work herself or himself. Part of the goal is compliance to stipulated practice, but the larger part of the gen-ri which management undertakes to lead process improvement, particularly as it cuts across individual process components.
I don't know if there is any corresponding "theory" for Genchi Gebutsu, or if it is just a couple of Japanese words that Westerners picked up from superficial exposure to go-gen. "Management by walking around" simply doesn't do justice to the style Kobata-san describes, but the two are clearly related through what appears to be a more-than-coincidental connection. However, there seems to be a largish disconnect between the 5-gen origins and what this article describes. From some perspective this article looks like a confused misinterpretation of 5-gen, without any particular grounding. I can speculate that one could find some cargo cult grounding in Western practice if one looks hard enough, but I'm guessing that it historically traces back to 5-gen.
The question is whether the misunderstanding has devolved so far as to earn its own identity or whether it should be explained as a degenerate 5-gen application. There is a citable body of literature and practice behind 5-gen that includes the "theory." Is there something parallel for genchi genbutsu that endows it with similar stature, worthy of encyclopedic mention?
Thoughts?
Jcoplien (talk) 16:38, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal to rewrite in terms of deeper foundations