Talk:The Garden Tomb

message: From the page on General Gordon, he was in Palestine 1882-83, and in Khartoum from February 1884 until his death in January 1885. Searching the internet, I find dates for Gordon's theory of 1883, 1884, 1885 and 1894 (!). [I wonder if, say, his theories were published after his death ?] -- Beardo 06:32, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Regarding Gordon

message: I'm tagging this article as a stub due to the current lack of detail. Chrylis 21:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Tagging

message: I've tried to clean up this article and put the ideas it expresses into the context of the archiological evidence and tradition, including links to other articles.LCP 18:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Genral cleanup

message: Mdbrownmsw states, “Gordon's credentials certainly belong in an article about him. Here, they were presented as part of the argument against the site.” The information is not given any rhetorical weight. It is statement of fact. Nevertheless, Mdbrownmsw may be correct about whether or not it should be included. I think Gordon’s credentials have everything to do with helping the reader to asses the quality of the claim that the Garden tomb is the burial site of Jesus. I would like to discuss this possibility here. I have reverted only for the sake of discussion and am not trying to start a revert war.LCP 19:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted back to Md's version just to give Md the benefit of the doubt.LCP 20:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: To include or not include Gordon's credentials

message: It's been a year since the claim that scholars "unanimously" agree that the traditional location was outside the walls was tagged as needing a citation. No such citation has been forthcoming. Since this claim contradicts the entire section it follows, I have removed it.  174.206.218.117 (talk) 02:28, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Unanimity" that Holy Sepulchre was outside walls 

message: According to the Jewish Encyclopedia:
:"According to Josephus, the name of a hill north of the Temple-mound, and separated from the latter by a valley. After the erection of the third wall it became part of the city of Jerusalem. Josephus ("B. J." ii. 15, § 5; ii. 19, § 4; v. 4, § 2; v. 5, § 8) gives the meaning of the name as "New City," according to which "Bezetha" is a strange transcription of . A more correct rendering is "house of olives""
According to 
:http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/arkintro.htm
the Garden Tomb resides in the Valley of Bezetha, a short & straight distance due north of Pilate's headquarters.  And, according to the Gospel of John 19, Jesus' tomb was "new", never used before by men.  If the Garden Tomb was located in a "new" part of the city, then it may have been "new" and unused.  And, Bezetha lies a short distance due north of ancient Mt. Zion (Temple Mount, Fortress Antonia).  Plausibly, Pilate marched Jesus straight north out of town, having him crucified atop the first hill encountered.  And so, Josephus seems to support the Garden Tomb being the "new" tomb in the "new" part of the city.  Perhaps a professional could cite some sources, so improving the present piece ? 24.56.197.47 (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: On second thought, as the Akeldama Potter's Field, where Judas' body was dumped, resides to the south of Jerusalem; so the Garden Tomb resides to the north.  Such an anti-symmetry seems symbolically significant.  Perhaps these comments could help some scholar improve the present article ? 24.56.197.47 (talk) 10:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Josephus supports Garden Tomb ? 

message: I was surprised to read the only archaeological analysis cited was that of an article Barkay submitted to Biblical Archaeological Review  back in the 80s. There are other scholars, both prior and after that article, who have written research papers which disagree with him. To have a balanced view they should also receive mention. I really don't have the time to do that right now but if someone else does not do it then I may be able to find time later.
CWatchman (talk) 19:22, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Archaeological investigations and critical analysis

message: I have removed that statement since the reference it sites (Baba Batra 25a) does not actually proscribe that tombs should not be placed west of the city, only that tombs should be at least 50 cubits from a city, and that tanneries should not be placed to the west of the city. Besides that, first century tombs are found inside the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and elsewhere west of Jerusalem making the claim particularly ridiculous and irrelevant.
true, this is the tomb, and so the sepulchre is the cross.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.70 (talk) 03:16, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  the claim that tombs were never placed west of the city is ludicrous and wrong 

message: I hereby move the following parts to the talk page in order to record why the shouldn't be included in the article:
:Therefore, during the medieval era Christians felt they had to address those who were uncomfortable with finding that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was located deep within the walled city of their time. 
:For example, as early as 754 AD Saint Willibald claimed: “but Helena, when she found the Cross, arranged that place so as to be within the city.”Thomas Wright ed., Early Travels in Palestine (London 1848), p. 18C. H. Talbot, The Anglo-Saxon Missionaries in Germany, Being the Lives of SS. Willibrord, Boniface, Leoba and Lebuin together with the Hodoepericon of St. Willibald and a selection from the correspondence of St. Boniface, (London and New York: Sheed and Ward, 1954) p. 165 
As the linked translations show, Willibald does not claim anything about Helana "arranging that place" but rather that "she placed the spot within the walls of Jerusalem", i.e. she included the spot into the city walls. This doesn't accord with modern research but it doesn't show any concerns in Willibald's mind either.
:Later writers, such as Saewulf (c. 1108 AD), maintained that it was Hadrian who enclosed the traditional Golgotha and Tomb of Christ within the city limits when he rebuilt the city during the second century AD, though they were previously outside the city.Thomas Wright ed., Early Travels in Palestine (London 1848), p. 37Charles W. Wilson, Golgotha and The Holy Sepulchre (1906, The Committee of the Palestine Exploration Fund), pp. 103-120
This contradicts Willibald's claims that Helena enlarged the city but again says nothing about that anyone had a problem with the Sepulchre being inside the then-current city walls.
With the removal of the two citations, the reasoning behind the entire passages collapses. Str1977 (talk) 18:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This is good material re. what did Christians believe in the past about the plausibility of the H. Sep. Church, which does have major bearing on the late "invention" of the Garden Tomb. I am carefully reformulating what Str1977 disliked about the material, and putting it, in this modified form, back in. Nota bene: I am the first one to give a f... about it in close to 6 months. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 17:46, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Moved parts, especially falsified quotes

message: Catholics and Orthodox appreciating the evocative atmosphere: wishful thinking? Unsourced!
Most important bit completely missing: the Anglicans basically dropping their support for the authenticity claim! Not a word about them. It still is their baby! Was Bievey Anglican? 1920 is a bit remote... Arminden (talk) 23:50, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reception by Christian denominations 

message: This isn't the title of a book or movie. It should eventually be moved to Garden Tomb and the The unbolded in the lead sentence. — LlywelynII 23:17, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Move