Talk:Babylon 5 influences

message: Somebody familiar with Hegel's philosophy of history may want to make an addition to this page.  The notion of "we are the universe trying to figure itself out", and all the references to the universe as sentient, and the idea of it having a direction bares a striking resemblance to Hegel's ides about the development of spirit (geist) through the man.    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.94.58 (talk) 03:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hegel 

message: IIRC the Technomage that warned about being "quick to anger" was named Elric, an obvious reference to Michael Moorcock's character.  Sorry, I can't confirm it right now. Luis Dantas 12:14, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Elric 

message: I think that Lensmen should be listed among the main infuences. The entire over-arcing plot of the series is lensmen twisted around on its head. -- --DysgraphicProgrammer 5 July 2005 03:19 (UTC)
----
The Lensman books are indeed a major influence on B5:
* The actions and motivations of the Vorlons and Shadows closely mirror those of Lensman's Arisians and Eddorians.
* The Vorlons are implied to have influenced the evolution of some of the younger races, as are Lensman's Arisians.
* The First Ones (including the Vorlons and Shadows) eventually remove themselves from the galaxy when the younger races have advanced sufficiently, as do Lensman's Arisians.
* The Interstellar Alliance's role as keepers of the peace mirrors that of Lensman's Galactic Patrol.
* The use of "planet-killers" by the Shadows and Vorlons in Babylon 5 mirrors that of both the Boskone and the Galactic Patrol (free planets, negaspheres, the sunbeam, etc.).
* Marcus Cole's home world is Arisia 3, an obvious reference to Lensman's Arisians.
Troy Baer 01:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lensmen 

message: It seems almost automatic to suggest that any science fiction from the 80's on draws at least some influence from Star Trek, but I'm having a hard time coming up with examples.  Given JMS's feelings towards B5/Trek comparisons, are there actual occurances in B5 that one could point to as being Trek-influenced? --Mattmcc 07:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Some say the Season 1 episode Believers fills the bill. Reply to David Latapie 21:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

text: That JMS engaged three Original Trek writers - Harlan Ellison, DC Fontana and David Gerrold - speaks volumes for Trek's influence on JMS. That said, not so sure about a direct influence - B5 is more of a reaction against Trek. Joe King 22:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

text: Ellison wrote one episode of TOS, and it was pretty heavily rewritten and they refused the Cordwainer Bird credit he insists on when his work is tampered with, he was engaged because he is a writer of science-fiction/speculative-fiction/etc of long standing and has been friends with JMS since the 1980s. LamontCranston 21:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Star Trek examples 

message: Moreover, the monks led by Brother Theo may not be explicitly Christian, but certainly seem based on Christian monastic orders
In the episode "Passing through Gethsemane," Brother Edward refers to the last supper and crucifixion as the core of his religion when discussing it with Delenn and Lennier. Wouldn't this be "explicitly Christian" or would the order be more multi-faith, considering it's seeking of all of the names of god?
Geminidomino 10:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christianity 

message: While there's a lot of good stuff in this article, the whole thing is, quite frankly, a complete mess. I've reorganised the topics, but haven't made any changes to the content of the text (yet!) in order to at least group them under a set of high level themes. Joe King 20:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Structuring this article 

message: "Tolkien's Narn i Hîn Húrin in The Silmarillion". This is in error. The Narn i Hin Hurin was actually in Unfinished Tales by JRR Tolkien. It was a much-extended version of a short summary Tolkien wrote which eventually appeared in the finished Silmarillion, but the story of that name only appears in Unfinished Tales and nowhere else.--82.22.43.147 21:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tolkien Allusions 

message: The Centauri crest bears a striking resemblance to that of the Shi'Ar of X-men.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.180.207.156 (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: X-men

message: Removed entire section dealing with Star Trek.
* Although Babylon 5 may have been influenced by Star Trek in a pure sci-fi sense, the section in the article did not articulate how Star Trek may have influenced B5.
* Section made a serious charge, without citation of evidence, of Paramount stealing the entire concept of Deep Space Nine from the Babylon 5 series pitch.  There is controversy and there are accusations, but this section made no effort to prove or cite a resource indicating that Paramount did, in fact, steal Deep Space Nine from the Babylon 5 series pitch.
* Section made the absurd implication that Paramount got the idea for Vulcans from the Minbari species on Babylon 5, even though Vulcans were a species on Star Trek twenty-seven years prior to Babylon 5 being written.  It didn't make this accusation in so many words, but implied it by citing the similarity as "striking" one sentence after accusing Paramount of stealing the idea of Babylon 5.
* Section made the same absurd implication about Romulans.
* Last paragraph of section concerning the Romulan enslavement of Klingons is entirely baseless and made up.
Section was full of misinformation without citation.
Fknight 23:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Star Trek 

message: Useful links with plenty of material
Section made a serious charge, without citation of evidence, of Paramount stealing the entire concept of Deep Space Nine from the Babylon 5 series pitch. There is controversy and there are accusations, but this section made no effort to prove or cite a resource indicating that Paramount did, in fact, steal Deep Space Nine from the Babylon 5 series pitch.
 
The available evidence, formed by messages posted by Straczynski himself, ( links are posted right below) suggests that there was indeed some kind of "poaching" of the original pitch of B5.
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7652&query=shapechanger
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-13041&query=berman
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7427&query=DS9%20is%20a%20good%20show%20our%20show
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-15244&query=DS9%20is%20a%20good%20show%20our%20show
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-5509&query=by%20stealing
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-3377&query=their%20show
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7864&query=Actually,%20we've%20already%20*had*%20ST%20vs.%20B5%20in%20sports;%20our%20softball%20team%20has
http://www.jmsnews.com/thread.aspx?id=_Trek%20vs.%20B5
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-9256&query=berman
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-15165&query=berman
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-3367&query=Grand%20Theft,%20drama
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7616&query=shapechanger
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7614&query=shapechanger
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7730&query=shapechanger
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-13041&query=berman
A list of the similarities between DS9 and the original proposal of B5 made by Stracznynsk himself
An explanation of why Warner Brothers didn't tried to litigate ( also found in the first link)
I think that these  quotes  about the Deep Space Nine controversy can be useful
The original post of JMS cited in the review whose relevant piece is transcribed right below can be found here
[ http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/ds9season1.php]
Though I was only dimly aware of the controversy at the time, crossfire between partisans of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 has raged hot and heavy ever since these similar shows first competed in the television marketplace. J. Michael Straczynski had "pitched" the full Babylon 5 concept in 1989 to many places, including Paramount, and soon began production of that series pilot, and a mere two months later the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine concept was in turn presented to Paramount brass. Though Babylon 5 had the early start, Paramount brought the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine pilot to air January 3, 1993, just weeks before the bow of Babylon 5 on February 22, 1993.
Ever since, the debate has raged as to whether one show "poached" off of the other. Aside from the most fanatical Trek partisans, no one seems to accuse Babylon 5 of that crime, but some credibly make the point in the other direction. However, to be absolutely clear, at no point has J. Michael Straczynski claimed that the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine creators (Rick Berman and Michael Piller) knew of the detailed Babylon 5 "pitch." Quite to the contrary, he describes both men in highly positive, ethical terms, though he fails to describe Paramount executives in such a manner. Of course, anyone in Hollywood is familiar with concurrent development patterns, though in such a gossip-riddled town, one can easily imagine how word of a hot project can soon spawn imitative fruit (and hence create the appearance of purely coincidental concurrent development). Though a truthful accounting is unlikely, Straczynski has his own measured but firmly stated view:
There's little question in my mind that the suits at Paramount wanted to co-opt what we were doing with B5. I know that they *resented* the show because it was, at that time, their belief that they pretty much owned the space SF genre. 
I feel that they guided the development process in order to co-opt what we were doing. And nothing I've heard from my sources inside the studio has given me cause to think otherwise.
J. Michael Straczynski (posted on Usenet 2/19/01)''
added by PauloIapetus• , 31 May 2007 (UTC)</small>
: I have tremendous respect for JMS, who created what I believe is the best robust SF TV series in history. (I like Joss Whedon's all-too-brief Firefly a bit more, but no one beats JMS for sheer scope and seamless tacking into real-world winds of change.) But speaking as a Wikipedian, a one-sided primary source isn't really enough to allow us to compile an proper encyclopedic statement on this subject. Surely there are secondary sources that have addressed this question? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Deep Space Nine x Babylon 5 polemic  

message: The Israeli would be the Centauri, and the Narn would be a much better organized version of the Palestinians... I have always seen a great parallel, especially when considering the statement by Molari, in season 2, when his troops attacked Narn civilians. He immidiately accused the Narn of deliberately hiding military targets among civilians - just as Israel would say. The only bump I see here, is that it would make the US... The Shadows. hum... what do you think?
Themalau 11:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Israel and Palestine? 

message: Throughout the show numerous references are made concerning astrology and Sheridan's analogous role in history to that of a messiah. After the defeat of the Shadows in season four episode Into The Fire, Sheridan comments to Delennn "This is a new age Delenn, the third age". The third age is the age of Aquarius, the first and second being Aries and Pisces. An Astrological age is approximately 2160 years. The age of Pisces is generally regarded to have started at year 1 AD. That would make the year 2162 the first year of Aquarius, which is exactly when the shadow war takes place
The shadow war takes place in 2260.  Not 2160.
216.59.240.51 (talk) 13:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  error in the religious and astrology section 

message: As much as I love the show and find a discussion of comparative influences interesting, I have to say this article smacks of original research.  There are relatively few references for the length of the article and of those references almost none refer to a scholary comparison of the series and its alleged source material.  The majority of the article is simply a litany of comparisons between characters or situations in Babylon 5 and similar cases in other works.  I wonder whether this truly belongs on Wikipedia in its current form.  Stile4aly (talk) 21:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Disambiguation – I want to make sure that by "Anne Hamilton's site" you mean the online six-part document Jumping To Babylon?  I hadn't read it yet, but do mean to check out eventually all the online references that others think are important, as opposed to "fancrufty".  —Aladdin Sane (talk) 21:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Original Research

message: This article still has a lot of information that reads as original research. The comparisons between the length of the story arcs in B5 and lost is not supported by sources, and I tagged it as possible WP:OR. 
Much of the following section too, on the lord of the rings, is poorly referenced and reads as OR at the moment. Dr bab (talk) 08:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  August 2011 

message: Since when has "parallelization" been a word?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.7.169.37 (talk) 19:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  parallelization 

message: Some of the most striking influences on Babylon 5 seems to come directly from Ancient Alien theory. See Ancient Alien theory and Galactic Federation. 
In particular, the notion that two older races (Vorlons and Shadows) with different philosophies (order and Chaos) were indirectly shepherding mankind's evolution seems borrowed from other writers. According to New Age psychic channelers such a Sal Rachele and ancient Gnostic authors, planet earth (and the rest of the universe) has long been a battle-ground between two hostile confederations of space-traveling races.  The first known as the Reptilian or Orion group are non-humanoid fourth dimensional beings which appear as large reptiles or insects. They in turn were seeded by an older, unknown race.  The philosophy of the reptilian society is service to self. They are known as malevolent conquerors who organize their culture in strict hierarchies. They have conquered many worlds, enslaved many races, and previously fought over control of planet Earth with the humanoids.  Opposed to them are advanced humanoid races which originate from the Lyria and Sirius constellations. Froming the so-called Galactic Federation of Planets, they organize their societies around a service-to-others philosophy. The latter and former groups have both visited earth and played a role in human evolution and human catastrophic events.  See http://www.salrachele.com/webchannelings/foundersonearthhistorypart1.htm and http://www.nibiruancouncil.com/html/galacticfederation.html, Madame Blavatsky's root races, the Urantia book, Scientology, Mormonism and Raelism. 
In addition to new age sources, the Babylon 5 name itself has been referred to directly to ancient Babylonian creation myths which have long been used to support ancient alien theory. Ancient Mesopotamian mythology with their depictions of winged gods and their flying discs mimic the depictions of the Vorlons. In one of the last episodes of Babylon 5, the Vorlons are said to appear as angels to humans.  Ancient alien theorists such as Erich Von Daniken, Zarachia Sitchin and others have written extensively about these connections.  Their theory being that that ancient gods of Babylonian/Sumerian pantheon were actual space-faring beings who visited and created different races on this planet just like the Vorlons.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.34.225 (talk) 11:15, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ancient Alien Theory 

message: I tagged this article with quite a few templates.  I tried to be conservative, but there are many issues that need to be solved.  First of all, self-published blogs and fansites are not reliable sources.  Second, this article relies on extensive quotations from the writer/creator.  These are primary sources, and we need more secondary sources.  Examples of secondary sources would be academic analysis, newspaper articles, etc.  Some of it is legitimate, but the way that it's written is a clear violation of WP:OR and WP:SYN.  For example, citing a quotation from JMS that says, "Tolkien was a major influence on me in college" is not a legitimate source for writing something like "Babylon 5 was primarily inspired by the writings of Tolkien".  This statement is completely unsupported by the citation.  Furthermore, some of the links are dead.
In order to comply with even the most basic Wikipedia policies, I think this article is going to have to be rewritten from scratch.  If nobody else gets to it, I'll see about trying to clean it up. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cleanup 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: It would be awesome to find fiction influenced by Babylon 5. Best regards, ~Whig 12:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Influenced BY Babylon 5?