Talk:PlayStation 3/Archive 7

message: Someone named it Green Ray? Changing. EDIT Or not. Someone did it for me. Thanks. EDIT- Someone decided to name it green again. Edit - Fixed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.6.13.211 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Bad Label from Pricing chart

message: Talk page archived - if I missed an unfinished discussion - sorry.HappyVR 06:55, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: archived

message: I removed region coding again (see talk section 'Blu ray' archive 6) - the table is wrong - doesn't say if it's for dvd or blu ray and in my opinion - unecessary.?HappyVR 07:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: removed region coding

message: Do we have a reference for the UK price? It seems higher than I would expect and I didn't think that the UK price had been announced yet. As far as I can tell, £425 is just an estimated price that some retailers are putting their pre-orders at. TimTim 13:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whatever it is, it's way too high for me (along with just about every other working person in the UK.) I think i'll just stick with my PSP. After all, it's the PSP that gets all the fresh GTAs now. -Msc44 21:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why is the good old black Ps3 picture changed? huh? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skullcap (talk • contribs) 06:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: UK Price

message: Is this confirmed? I don't know if 1080p can be output through the component cable. Jack Zhang 04:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Don't really know but since sony's site says 1080p is a spec for both 20GB and 60GB versions I would assume that component video will do it. Also wikipedia:component video says component video can go up to 1080p.HappyVR 23:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Component 1080p?

message: "Parents would first handedly choose to give their child the 'Wii' mainly because it is cheaper and would have mainly child games. Hardcore gamers would majorily choose either the '360' and/or the 'PS3' because of the games that are expected to be released onto it. Right now, it seems as if those gamers will go with '360.'"
This seems ridiculously POV to me. first off, most of the wii games that have been shown off so far are made for teens and adults. bringing up the 'kiddie' game issue is blatant speculation. second, saying that hardcore gamers would mostly be interested in the 360 and PS3 is biased. I'm a hardcore gamer, and I plan on purchasing a Wii. I know plenty of Xbox or PS2 owners who feel the same way as well. if this is a quote, it needs to be marked as such, and if it's just speculation it needs to be fixed. I apologize for sounding so abrupt, it's just that this kind of thing is popping up everywhere... (Last Man Standing 19:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's been removed twice. :)  If it reappears, feel fry to kill it again. HenryFlower 19:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've seen the section - named 'criticism' - just to clarify - without referening to its content straight away - is there any place for a 'criticism' section in this or any other article under Wikpedia guidlines - and if so what parts need keeping/deleting/editing.HappyVR 20:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Criticism is fine to have in an article, as long as it keeps NPOV and is written in a formal article style. This section does neither of these things. It either needs to be reworded, or deleted. CNash 23:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Not your opinions.  Opinions published in reputable sources. HenryFlower 10:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: No.  A criticism section needs to provided sources. "fans felt let down"- which fans? How do you know?  "The lack of titles has already been a concern"- who is concerned?  How do you know? HenryFlower 11:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The entire section is POV and extremly biased. It adds nothing to the article, and only fuels flame wars. As stated by Flower, it needs to be re-written with much less bias, and reputable sources and research if it is to be used. Havok (T/C/c) 12:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Wikipedia is about information yes, but not at whatever cost. I would suggest you read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia." Havok (T/C/c) 12:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Per WP:WEASEL and WP:RS, we can include some editorial statements and opinion, as long as they're NPOV and published by reputable sources.  I've written a section which is a decent start to that (though I think it's a touch too conservative...   the Ars Technica article is a fair bit more pessemistic about the ICT flag than I put it, though it's a bit difficult to prognosticate about what will happen in a very NPOV way.  On the other hand, it would take almost no effort for movie studios to turn on ICT for a given movie since the technical bits are already designed and implemented.  Also, even if it's POV, the movie industry has never been terribly responsive to customer's needs or desires) --Interiot 16:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I have removed this section, it is extremly POV. The fact that Atari created this concept back in the 70s isn't talked about, or that Microsoft created a controller with the same properties with Logitech in the 90s. Sony didn't copy Nintendo, the controllers arn't even remotly the same deal; the PS3 controller is more reminiscent the nunchaku addon for the Wii remote. Havok (T/C/c) 23:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gosh, I did try to keep it as NPOV as possible (while still acknowledging the point of that section of criticism), but I'm quite happy for it not to be there. To be honest I'm not convinced of the value of any of the criticism section. TimTim 10:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 'Criticism' Section

message: I notice that there was a minor edit scuffle between 65.2.82.173 and Larsinio about the inclusion of a sentence about the controller in the criticism section. I have re-written that part in a way that I hope will be ameanable to both parties. TimTim 16:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed this section, it is extremly POV. The fact that Atari created this concept back in the 70s isn't talked about, or that Microsoft created a controller with the same properties with Logitech in the 90s. Sony didn't copy Nintendo, the controllers arn't even remotly the same deal; the PS3 controller is more reminiscent the nunchaku addon for the Wii remote. Havok (T/C/c) 23:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Gosh, I did try to keep it as NPOV as possible (while still acknowledging the point of that section of criticism), but I'm quite happy for it not to be there. To be honest I'm not convinced of the value of any of the criticism section. TimTim 10:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Controller 

message: I've just reverted due to someone deleting almost all of the talk page, including archives. Sorry if your more recent edits got deleted - I will try and add them back in. TimTim 11:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Great, thank you. Havok (T/C/c) 12:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Talk Page vandalism 

message: I'm not sure how to change image but there is a much better image of the black PS3 with the real controller next to it (the non-boomerang one). The one currently displayed is terrible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.156.85.204 (talk • contribs) .
:It is a problem with the Wikipedia Fair use guidelines. We can't use a Fair use image (like the black with the controller) if there is a free one (like the current) which has only little modifications when compared with the Fair use one. Please don't use the black image, we had had this article locked for around 10 days due an edit war because of the image. -- ReyBrujo 02:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FIXED:I Uploaded a picture of the black PS3 with new controller. Jrg dnn 21:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  NOT fixed! All you did was put that same stupid copyrighted image back! -- Daniel Davis 23:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  PS3 image 

message: There is a load of blatant POV added by an Anon in this section, which I would normally revert, only it would seem that an editor has since then made some sincere additions to the section, and I don't want to delete those - this is why I've done an edit rather than a straight revert. Could 70.181.29.153 please keep their 'price comparison' and opinion pieces to their blog or forum posts! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tomisaac (talk • contribs) 11:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Retail and Pricing POV 

message: The wording in this section is somewhat deceiving.  It gives the impression that the basic online service will include online gameplay.  During Sony's E3 press conference, the list of Basic Services that they displayed in their presentation did *NOT* include online play.  Because of the contradictory evidence, any comments as to whether or not online play will be free should be considered speculation and omitted from the article until a formal statement of the pricing and service structure is released. 131.107.0.77 18:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Online services (PNP) 

message: The Blog by QJ.net has more details on Linux on the PS3 (the link is already in ps3 article). But is also gives a link to the actual interview with Kawanishi. (It's in Japanese so use BabelFish to translate). In the interview it tells why things like HDMIx2, GigabitEthernetx3, etc. were left out, and alot of other usefull information. I'm not sure if any of this can/should be added to the PS3 article? What do you think? Jdm64 17:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I forgot to note that also in the article it stated that the PS3 might still be able to output to 2 screens: one using and an anoaog connector and one using the HDMI. It would be kind of like a graphic card with a VGA and DVI connector that can run to screens. This should be noted in the article. Jdm64 18:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why things were left out

message: The current article contains the line "Most of the games that stood out from the pack as exceptional Playstation and Playstation 2 games obviously did not adhere to a performance restraining checklist based on Sony's Technical Requirements Criteria."  The word "obviously" really doesn't belong in there.  Aside from that, a citation is needed for the strong "most of."  I'd suggest changing it to "Several popular games for the Playstation and Playstation 2, including [examples], did not adhere to Sony's Technical Requirements Criteria, which included constraints on performance such as [examples]."  --LostLeviathan 19:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I note from http://www.ps3freaks.com/news/ps3-not-really-100%25-backward-compatible.php that "TRC (Technical Requirements Criteria), also known as TCRs by Microsoft and Nintendo, are a significant portion of the certification requirements needed to get approval to release a title on a given console system." This is from the page quoted in the article - however taking this as read this means/suggests that for a title to be released (ie with the sony hologram etc) it must pass the TRC - this is one of the reasons I have removed the section half of the section 'backwards compatability'. The other being that it states unproved info. as factHappyVR 19:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, there are plenty of games out there with Sony's seal that don't meet the TRCs. I am putting the stuff back, with (hopefully) a little more balance. If it still doesn't work, feel free to take it out again. I just feel that it's important. Dancter 21:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: With that said, I am not too keen on the intimations that Sony was willfully misleading people about PS3 compatibility. I looked it up, and it seems that Sony was always very insistent about the importance of TRC observance, even at the GDC keynote, which keeps getting cited as the source of this "deception". The fact that IGN didn't mention it in their article is more of an oversight on IGN's part than Sony's. I am also not in favor of the information derived from the PS3freaks article. I feel it is a little too biased and speculative for the article. But it seems people want it in there. What can you do... Dancter 07:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The article reads 'Sony has claimed' and 'according to sony' which are good enough disclaimers for me - No doubt it would be simple for sony to publish a list of games produced which did not conform to their TRC - I have assumed that sony has some control over what games were published. Assuming Sony's backwards compatability mechanism works then I think the section is correct as it stands. However it does seem that the article bsically says the same thing twice.HappyVR 20:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

text: I've just cut this section 'down to size' substantially - seeing as we don't know yet it seems pointless and unproductive to have a long section - amounts to speculation in the end.HappyVR 09:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

text: 'Alleged' does seem harsh. I changed the wording to 'estimated'. Dancter 02:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've been looking at guidlines for WP:EL and sites that should not normally be linked to includes 'Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research..'. This includes (as I see it) ps3portal's 50-85% trc compliance statement - therefore it should be removed (due to 'unverified original research')? HappyVR 18:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Backward compatibility 

message: I removed paragraph from 'criticism' section concerning hi def tv take up - it just didn't seem relevant enough - however perhaps a section  pointing out the additional costs of buting a suitable monitor might be relevant.. If people want this I can add it.
Also I was wondering if adding criticism of the external design is suitable (or fair) - that being that sony seems to have re-used the PS2 'chassis' and added a curved top to it - rather than generating something new - doubt anyone will agree to any comments regarding the aesthetic quality of the design - either positive or negative??HappyVR 17:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure such criticism is fair for doing the obvious thing - and the ps3 controller is obviously not a copy of the Wii controller. Most consoles are similar - and I can't criticise for having similar features.HappyVR 11:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

text: Some notes have been unnecessarily removed from this article, including the popular feeling that the motion-sensing was ripped from Nintendo. While it is true that Sony has held a motion-sensing patent for some time (and other bits), it is true that the reason rumble really isn't in the PS3 is due to their lost lawsuit (no matter what Sony's said about interference they honestly can't legally implement the dual-shock's rumble technology into the PS3), and the including of motion-sensing is due in part to a reaction to Nintendo's device (intentional or not, Nintendo announced their device first, and Sony clearly waited a long time before they showed a public revision to the boomerang). These notes need to be included in either the controller or criticism sections, preferrably just integrated with the controller. They are popular, now generally factual, and can be made unbiased. And of course, if you're totally against the idea of the controller having copied the Wii, you still have to grant that its guidelike button copied 360, and if it dod copy one competitior, questioning another possible copy is entirely reasonable. gspawn 14:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I tried my hand, and my head's spinning from the effort to Wikify the addition, so it's break time. Citations abound, and the addition is as NPOV as I can make it at the moment. Also tried not to interfere with existing text, and added to the controller section so the criticism section itself remains small. gspawn 15:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: criticism

message: Just looking at my local (Australia) predicted price point, 1000 dollars for the real version! As far as I can remember that makes it the most expensive gaming console in the universe! JayKeaton 01:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Most expensive console on Earth?

message: I just read in an interview with Phil Harrison of Sony at Eurogamer, in which he states that if PS3 consumers desire a larger hard drive than the 20gb or 60gb models included in their system that the PS3 hard drive is "ATA, bog standard" and can be swapped out with a normal PC hard drive, of a different capacity.  (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=64667)
:Quote:
::Phil Harrison: "We want every consumer to be able to download and install content on their hard disc drive. If you want to put all your music on your hard disc drive, you'll probably go for the 60GB version. If you're a complete music fan and video fan, and you want to have huge amounts of digital content, then you can upgrade to whatever size of drive you like. You can put any in that you like - it is a computer, after all."
::Eurogamer: So that hard drive is a standard PC drive?
::Phil Harrison: ATA, bog standard, yeah.
This may be relavent to concerns about the price differential between the 20gb and 60gb versions of the PS3, because, if accurate, the only concerns left would be questions over the inclusion of Wi-fi and HDMI output in the 20gb model, since a 20gb model could be upgraded by the consumer perhaps to a 100gb or great sized drive at a later date. 
At least one concern of being forever stuck with an inferior, but still expensive machine would be quelled. 80.132.25.3 08:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hard Drive Consumer Upgradable 

message: I belive that Sony's stance on the pricing is relevant to the article and should be either in a criticism section, or in pricing section. Kutaragi is quoted as saying that "ps3 is probably too cheap" in numerous online sources, such as 
ign, gamedaily, arstechnica, eurogamer and engadget. Considering the criticism directed at Sony's comparatively high pricing point, this deserves to be mentioned. Tani unit 19:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted your edit because much of the stuff about the price criticism was taken out. Without it, it was a little unclear what Kutaragi's price defense had to do with anything. I reverted a few edits further back, so some of that criticism should be back in. The quotation should make sense now if you add it to what's currently in the article. But it seems there is some disagreement over whether this stuff should be in the article at all, which is why I called for the discussion. Dancter 19:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I like the current format. Pricing is in the intro section, where it should be. In my experience, talking to most people about the price of the console nets something like "how can they do that" or something of the sort, so why not tell people in the article? gspawn 12:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pricing criticism 

message: Sorry I had inferred from other articles that the kutaragi quote 'it's too cheap' was in fact a summary of an interview or speech where he had 'defended' the price. However the article http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/706/706133p1.html quotes him as saying 'It's probably too cheap'. As this was translated from japanese I have no idea what he said.HappyVR 19:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kutaragi price quote

message: I removed this paragraph:
:It should be noted, however, that both the 1990 NeoGeo and the 1993 3DO initially retailed at a higher price than the 60 GB Playstation 3 (at $US650 and $US700, respectively) . Furthermore, it is now standard practice to offer consoles at a reduced price with trade-in, which may make the PlayStation 3 significantly cheaper than the first round of Blu-Ray drives. (citation needed)
First sentence: When you chop 'it should be noted' it basicly leaves you with a statement of the NeoGeo and 3DO launch pricepoints. While it is nice for context, I'm not sure its needed. I think comparing it to its contemporaries should be enough for now, with the "its high price in comparison to its console competition" sentence.
Second sentence 'furthermore, it's standard practice to do trade ins', is unsourced, and even if it is, I'm not sure why it would deserve a specific mention. The  'significantly cheaper than average blu-ray player launch price' part maybe does deserve a mention. It needs a proper source reference though. I believe it linked to some press release previously, but you'd want a more general statement about average blu-ray player launch prices. It could fit in after "Blu-ray drive as representing real value for money.[5]" as "The average price of Blu-ray players at launch will be X. [src]". For now, also removed it. --Codemonkey 21:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The edit was originally mine. The fact is that there is a lot of 'counter-coverage' emphasising that the PS3 is excellent value; and a lot of people I talk to agree. Probably the key point is the comparison to other Blu-Ray players - I looked for a better reference before even doing the original edit, but alas. As you can see, I avoided comparisons to the 360 - its just too emotional. I gues this is just an inherent problem of trying to write an encyclopedia about something in development, and at the end of the day "value" is in the wallet of the beholder. --DreamsReign 22:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  removed console price history paragraph 

message: "Blu-ray drive(which is not going to make it)"?  "Memory Stick reader(who cares)"?  Is there any way to stop eight-year-olds from editing WP?  "60 GB version(matters)"?  Maybe before you can commit edits, you should be forced to check a "I understand that this is an encyclopedia, not a chat board.  I will not behave like I have ADD or try to impress my sk8z0r friends." box.  Who wants to create WP: immaturity? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.51.73.129 (talk • contribs) .
:No, there is no way. Just revert the changes. If you think this is bad, imagine how Wii was when the name was announced ;-) -- ReyBrujo 16:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The only way we can stop childish vandalism is to lobby Wikipedia to implement a registered-user-only edit system. Only then will the problem be reduced. --Rcandelori 05:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Reduce, it might. But, then there would be a upspring of new users that only make one edit! Which would totally distroy any "community" that Wikipedia has. So, reverts are the only way. Jdm64 23:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  POV Comments in main article: Are we in grade school? 

message: :Someone just replaced the black ps3 picture for a ungly, outdated, picture of a gray ps3; why? I cited the website where i got it from and i gave it the right tag,and it qualifies as fair; what else do I have to do, why hasn't anyone deleted the pics from the wii article, they are copyrighted too!  can anyone please give me permission to put the pic of the black ps3. Thanks. Jrg dnn 02:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  We've already gone over this. That image isn't free by any means- it's a cropped version of an image that Sony has gone so far as to even place a copyright notice on (2006 Sony Corporation, All Rights Reserved). Sony has NOT given away the rights to use it- thus, if we were to use it, it would certainly not be a free image, and it would be questionable as fair use. Adding to that, even if it were fair use, Wiki guidelines state that we have to use a free (not fair use) alternative if one exists. The pictures on the Wii page are there because there is no individual who went to e3, took a picture of the Wii and uploaded it to the page. If they had, we would use the free images on that page, as well. -- Daniel Davis 02:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I just asked sony for permission to use the picture, hopefully they will consider my offer. And someone put the updated pic back, it wasn't me, don't blame me. --Jrg dnn 17:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not whether Sony allows us to use it or not, it is about following Wikipedia guidelines. I suggest you to take a minute and read the Wikipedia Fair use policy, especially point 1, to understand what is happening. Images are likely to be replaced with the old image unless they are free. So, to prevent edit wars, read about the one and three revert rules. -- ReyBrujo 19:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ps3 Picture 

message: I've removed this ' Nintendo has also described Sony's actions as copying, rather than innovating.'
My reason being that this comment actually was refering to the rumble capabilty of the dualshock controller - not the motion detection capabilty as the sentence seemed to suggest in it's context in the article. There still is a accurate nintendo response to the tilt etc features. So I would suggest the article does not need this quote anyway?HappyVR 09:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: For reference, this was added as a result of a discussion I had with SeizureDog. He felt very strongly that the article should mention that 'many people' feel that the new controller 'to have ripped of Nintendo' and 'being a cheap move'. I didn't agree with him, and his initial use of a GameFAQs poll as a source, but when he later suggested an actual interview, I agreed that this was much better. But I guess the way I ended up quoting the article he suggested does get close to selective quoting. --Codemonkey 11:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well we still have nintendo response to the controller - along the lines of imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Just to clarify for other people the quote was "Historically we're always developing new things. We know Sony have had a lot of issues with their rumble feature and they've had to withdraw it - because they didn't innovate, they copied" http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=140270 - so unfortunately it's not about motion sensing.HappyVR 11:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  That seems to be quite a misleading sentence from Nintendo, considering that Sony had both analog controllers (Sony Dual Analog Flightstick) and rumble (the first Japanese versions of the Dual Analog) before Nintendo's controllers did. Yeah, they scrapped their version of rumble for Immersions when the Dual Shock came about, but it seems like that wouldn't involve Nintendo persay since it wasn't their technology... -- Daniel Davis 22:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The quote could be removed if it's misleading or based on false info. I supposed - I'm no expert on the timeline of who invented/marketted what first - so I'll leave it up to you.HappyVR 07:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

text: The Immersion suit does seem to void the validity of Nintendo's comment on copying rumble from them. Likewise, Nintendo did not invent the gyroscopic controller. As far as I know, Microsoft and Logitech both released a gyroscopic controller back in 1999 -- the Microsoft Sidewinder Freestyle and Logitech Gamepad Extreme respectively. They didn't invented it either, but those are the most notable controllers first utilizing the concept. If you want to specify consoles, then there was also the rather obscure Le Stick for the Atari 2600 and Atari 800 over 20 years ago. --Kamasutra 16:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: nintendo comment

message: The official European website for the PS3 has been launched, and I think it may contain some new info about the PS3. It has a full page for all the specifications, and also reveals how loud the PS3 will be. The address is- http://eu.playstation.com/ps3/ Vibriante 14:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Official European Website

message: Which is a problem....When the XBOX 360 has about as much info as The Beatles themselves then you know it's a problem..SO I say we need to add as much, useless info as we can. Starting now..I'll start in about 2 min. - Dragong4
: The 360 has been released, the PS3 has not. Information on the PS3 is rapidly changing, as Sony revises stats and some things just are not known. Also, longer is not always better. The 360 may be too long, actually. Adding useless information is vandalism, by the way, and declaring an intent to add such info can get people in trouble.--Orion Minor 05:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Orion Minor is right, do not start adding "useless" information, the article is fluffed enough as it is. And your edits, if not good, will be reverted and you will be warned for vandalisme. Havok (T/C/c) 09:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Having a bigger article does not make it superior in any way. I'm not putting the 360 article down at all, but if you're one of them anti-Xbox guys or a PlayStation fanboy, coming here to make the article longer and 'appear' more important is not going to fly.Tigermave 09:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: A PlayStation fanboy who wants to vandalize the PS3 article with fake information? Well, stranger things have happened, I guess. Optichan 14:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

text: very funny, no more jokes please.HappyVR 17:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FYI 360 HAS BEEN RELEASED and umm ps3 hasnt. So we have more info about it.Qwerasdfzxcvvcxz 12:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  xbox 360 has more info then the playstation 3... 

message: I have noticed that on the other next gen console pages there is a chart or a link that takes you to a chart of the launch titles for the system. I believe it is pertinent to at least start making a list so as to easily compare between the other two consoles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.184.31.158 (talk • contribs) 05:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Is there a list of launching titles? There was a "temporary" page saying that some titles were going to be released, and lately Sony stated many of their titles will be launchind directly on 2007. I would guess most games we could put in this section are speculation. -- ReyBrujo 06:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Well did a little bit on google and found: http://playstation.about.com/od/ps3/a/PS3LaunchGames.htm http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2005May/bga20050527030673.htm some other people might want to do some research but I think this enough to start making a chart. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.184.31.158 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: (edit conflict) This will be interesting. While in other articles we add titles as we get confirmations, in this one we will have to remove titles as companies deny they are going to be finished by launch time :-) I personally think About.com is as respectable as a blog, but hey, that does not mean the section can't be created. -- ReyBrujo 14:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text:  Both of those lists are very out-of-date. There are several that definitely aren't going to make launch and I'm not even sure why they'd ever assume some of them would have been a launch title. As I recall, Kaz claimed the number of launch titles is about 15. Resistance: Fall of Man and Madden 2007 are about the only titles that come to mind that are firmly confirmed for now. --Kamasutra 19:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

text: That's fine. Just one thing: make sure to sign your posts. Dancter 05:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Launch Titles 

message: Okay, so somebody added a section at the very bottom with links to pre-order sites. I removed any links that looked questionable and adjusted the others to ensure that noone is getting referral credit, but does anyone think we really need a section on this? I'm thinking it should be cut. What does everyone think? Dancter 00:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks like advertising to my eye :I --84.248.57.66 20:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alright, I'm cutting it. Dancter 21:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Pre-Order Sites 

message: I removed it until a consensus can be met on the above discussion. Preferable trough mediation. There is no need to have an image which miss represents PS3. Havok (T/C/c) 16:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I will not add the fair use image, so if someone else could do so, it would be great. Thank you. Havok (T/C/c) 23:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree with the removal as a temporary solution. I do not agree with the given points (color and dimensions) to justify the Fair use image in this context. As I stated, the black console is plain black mate, just like the PlayStation Portable. There are no visual differences between the black and the grey one. As for dimensions, there are no references to compare the size of the consoles against each other. -- ReyBrujo 23:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not grey, it's white. And the console is going to be black, and Sony has said nothing about the colors except for what they showed at last years E3. It's about the visual presentation of the console, and it's wrong. Havok (T/C/c) 23:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Was just clarifying, as it seemly was a reason besides color. A quick Google search on Flickr site reveals.  I am sure there are others with around the same or better quality. Some search is needed for sure, but I think it is necessary. -- ReyBrujo 23:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

text: Only if you upload a much smaller-res version and include rationale for its fair use on the image page. To see examples of how to do that, try Lindsay Lohan or any featured article with fair-use images. RadioKirk talk to me 00:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As far as I know, you can't modify a Fair use image. So, don't crop it. -- ReyBrujo 00:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I think the size should be reduced in size. -- ReyBrujo 04:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

text: You can't just ask them for permission - you have to ask them to release it under the GFDL or a similar license.  Non-commerical or "by permission" licenses were banned over a year ago. Hbdragon88 04:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have asked Sony to post it's policy on their press website. I asked a rep what their policy on this was, and got this reply "If it is one of the approved images from the online press office then this is fine to use in a magazine or on the internet for an article about PlayStation." Hopefully they will post this on their site, so that we are able to use the images. Havok (T/C/c) 06:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They're not going to freely license their pictures - I can guarantee that. The free picture is good enough for now - be we definitely can't use the copyright one. ed g2s • talk 09:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It has allready been established that the free image is wrong, and hence that policy you are referring to is void. Read all comments made above this one. Havok (T/C/c) 09:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The image is not "wrong". It is an accurate photo of the console Sony put on display at that exhibition. If it is significantly different from what is expected to be released then that can be explained in the caption. Either way we must not use the copyrighted pic per WP:FUC #1. ed g2s • talk 09:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This debate has been going for weeks now, and consensus is that it missrepresents the console, hence it is "wrong" and should not be used. As per RadioKirk "fair use can be asserted. If the only free image is of an outdated model which is not accurately reflective of the article subject, the accurate image should be fine."Havok (T/C/c) 10:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: If you disagree with him, do so in a civil matter please. Havok (T/C/c) 12:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: (edit conflict) Please don't bring your problems with him here. -- ReyBrujo 12:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The license for the current picture is wrong, it should be cc, not gnu. And I found a couple of white ones, but people want a black one. -- ReyBrujo 01:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Then change it from GNU to CC, if you feel that it should be CC. And that picture is good- it's accurate (it came from THIS YEAR'S E3), and it actually shows the controller, and it's free as well.  -- Daniel Davis 01:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Now if only this was settled two weeks ago. :P Good picture, I like it. Sorry if I stepped on the feet of people in here, my intent was not to be a jackass, but to get the most accurate picture. Havok (T/C/c) 07:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'd been avoiding this debate for a quite a while, 'cause I didn't understand the fuss. After Daniel changed the image to the current one, I decided to check on some things. For all the disagreement that was going on, not only had many of those images been available on Flickr since E3 (over a month), but copies of the better ones had been on Commons for a while, as well. Ed posted a cropped version of the same image we're currently using two weeks ago. The free image I prefer has been on Commons for a few days, and is what was used to create the free image of the controller. Given this fact, the debates seem a little silly now, don't they? Dancter 08:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: The dark color makes it hard to get a good-looking photo of the black casing, making it especially hard to find one for the current revision. Silver is just generally more photogenic. Dancter 08:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Silly as it might be, we have all come to an agreement atleast. Havok (T/C/c) 09:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

text: I already mentioned that I prefer that image. But please don't upload another copy, as it's already been uploaded here. Dancter 04:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ahh good, I'm glad I hesitated in uploading. This image is of a higher quality (focus, framing) than the one used currently. If there's some survey of consensus, consider this my vote for :Image:PS3s_and_controllers_at_E3_2006.jpg ˉˉanetode╞┬╡ 05:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that picture is better. Havok (T/C/c) 05:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  GOOD GOD. Would you start focusing on the ARTICLE TEXT and not on the freaking console image? First you people started arguing about having a "free" image. So a free image got put up, which you didn't like because it was slightly different from the "new" version. So now there's a new image up there that accurately depicts the console AND it's free. Leave the stupid article image alone and start actually working on the article itself, for the love of Pete! -- Daniel Davis 07:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: *cough* Havok (T/C/c) 07:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  There's a difference between incivility and exasperation. You would do well to learn the difference between the two. -- Daniel Davis 20:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  *cough* No ill will intended. Havok (T/C/c) 21:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Console image removed

message: On the Wii (and most Nintendo consoles) page, there is a list of Third Party, Second and First Party games expected to be on the Wii, plus a launch title list. Do you think we should organize the "Games in Development/Expect Software Library" list that way? By the way here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii#Expected_software_library 
McDonaldsGuy 08:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is huge enough as it is. Besides, we have List of PlayStation 3 games which should do nicely for now. Havok (T/C/c) 12:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the idea would make the article shorter and far more organized. McDonaldsGuy 09:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Game list