Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 54

message: I have forgotten whether which is copyedit, which is proposal.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Read them once. If you find anything problematic, state it out.--Wai Wai (talk) 14:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not to say that the other method is wrong, it's just a well informed choice of how we do it here. Rich Farmbrough 00:38 20  August 2006 (GMT).
——It's not for understandability, it's the way formal writings are styled.  MJCdetroit 15:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  about unit of measurement 

message: * Try to use the international units instead of local, unless you have good reasons to use others. ——Covered under 'conversions', unless you mean something else by 'international units'.  MJCdetroit 15:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Choice

message: * Use standard or formal (as opposed to localized or informal) abbreviations when using symbols. For example, metre is m, kilogram is kg, inch is in (not " or ″ ), foot is ft (not ' or ′ ), and pound is lb (not #).
** Do not append an s for plurals of unit abbreviations. For example kg, in, yd, lb; not kgs, ins, yds, lbs.
* For concision purposes, please use digits for values. For example, 100 kg; not one hundred kg.
* For understandability purposes, please spell out units in the text, and link to the relevant article at the first few usage.
——You must have non breaking space between the number and symbol.  Here's why:  I weigh 180lb and drink a 1l of water a day.  Having a space is easier on the eyes and is more consistent with many technical writings.
———However I see the non-spacing version in other formal writing, including the dictionaries. I see it uses 500g, 10km and so on.--Wai Wai (talk) 15:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not to say that the other method is wrong, it's just a well informed choice of how we do it here. Rich Farmbrough 00:38 20  August 2006 (GMT).
——It's not for understandability, it's the way formal writings are styled.  MJCdetroit 15:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Format

message: =====General=====
* For any formatting or style, please maintain consistency throughout an article, unless there's a good reason to do otherwise.
* If, for any special reasons, a less clearer or specific format (eg 1900-01-12 date format is chosen instead of 12 January 1900) is used. Please make it very sure that your choice does not cause any ambiguity or confusion to anyone over the world. Note that something which is certain in one country or nation may not be so in another. Thus the best way to eliminate possible ambiguity or confusion is to adding notes beside the usage (to clarify any grey area or ambiguity).
*Wikipedia respects different formatting and style as long as they are clear and unambiguous. When any of the style is acceptable, it is inappropriate for a Wikipedian to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reasons for the change. For example, with respect to English spelling as opposed to American spelling, it would be acceptable to change from American spelling to English spelling if the article concerned an English subject. 
** Revert warring over optional styles is highly unacceptable; if the article is colour rather than color, it would be wrong to switch simply to change styles as both are acceptable. See also Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jguk.
* Direct quotations (ie the word-for-word reproduction of a written or oral text) should not be altered to confirm any wikipedia formatting or style. It is because the original source has to be kept as intact (in verbatim) as possible. For instance, the date in the following fictional quotation should not be linked (even if it is preferred in wikipedia):
:"Tony Blair, responding to critics in his party, said 'The world has totally changed since the 11th of September.' He was echoing earlier sentiments by Lord Ronald McDonald, who said that 'nine-eleven' was the day that the American public woke up to the reality of terrorism."
=====Ranges=====
Sometimes numbers and dates are expressed in ranges, such as "14—17" for the numbers 14 to 17. It is often preferable to write this out (eg "14 through 17" (US and Canada) or "from 14 to 17"). It is to avoid confusion with "14 minus 17", which is expressed with spaces, as "14 − 17".
Traditionally, ranges of numbers and dates are given with an en dash (—). Simply click the "–" button (excluding quotes) below the edit window or insert it with any software supporting this punctuation. Please avoiding typing the code – to insert en dash. It is because new editors may not understand the code. They may delete the code due to misunderstanding. Also the visually form of "—" (excluding quotes) is more visually appealing and readable in the edit screen.
However, nowadays some sources use spaced or unspaced hyphens, at least online, and some Wikipedians believe that these hyphens should not be changed to en dashes.
See #Dates of birth and death (another section in the same article) for example.
See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dashes) for details.
=====Year, decade, century formats=====
* Always write year in full form. Do not use the shortened two-digit form to express a year. It is because the shortened formats are likely to cause confusion. The same holds true whether the years are BC or AD. For example:
** Do not use 56 or '56. Use 1956 (when referring to the <str>decade</str> year of the 20th century)
**:56 is not a decade Rich Farmbrough 00:42 20  August 2006 (GMT).
** Do not use 80s or '80s or "the eighties". Use 1980s (when referring to the decade of the 20th century)
* It is not necessary to use an apostrophe to indicate a decade. 1970s is preferred, but not 1970's.
* The word "century" is normally not capitalised. 18th century (small capital) is normally used. 18th Century (big capital) is less common.
*:This is quite unnecessary, in my opinion, as the two digit form at the end of a range (e.g. "1423–25") is very common, and is much neater than the full form in cases where many sets of dates are mentioned. Kirill Lokshin 01:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Formatting

message: * Always write year in full form. Do not use the shortened two-digit form to express a year. It is because the shortened formats are likely to cause confusion. The same holds true whether the years are BC or AD. For example:
** Do not use 56 or '56. Use 1956 (when referring to the <str>decade</str> year of the 20th century)
**:56 is not a decade Rich Farmbrough 00:42 20  August 2006 (GMT).
** Do not use 80s or '80s or "the eighties". Use 1980s (when referring to the decade of the 20th century)
* It is not necessary to use an apostrophe to indicate a decade. 1970s is preferred, but not 1970's.
* The word "century" is normally not capitalised. 18th century (small capital) is normally used. 18th Century (big capital) is less common.
*:This is quite unnecessary, in my opinion, as the two digit form at the end of a range (e.g. "1423–25") is very common, and is much neater than the full form in cases where many sets of dates are mentioned. Kirill Lokshin 01:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Year, decade, century formats

message: I find the changes to the dash guidelines highly objectionable. — and – are easy to type, their names quite clearly indicate "this is a dash", and HTML entities are certainly no more confusing than most of the markup used in MediaWiki. I don't see any reason to disallow using the Unicode characters, but "confusing for new editors" describes a whole lot more of what goes on here than these HTML entities. Anyone playing with the sandbox will be able to see what — and – do. —ptk✰fgs 18:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The reason is most new editors who are not familiar with Unicode characters will find it confusing. That's also why Wikipedia creates Wiki codes, to make it easier for others to edit. Others like HTML are hard to understand for newbies.—Wai Wai (☎) 20:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: &amp;mdash; and &amp;ndash; entities

message: I agree that it's a little sudden. They need copy-editing in a number of places, and while I like a lot of the changes, I don't like all of them. Tony 15:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: So sorry about the "suddenness".--Wai Wai (talk) 15:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent changes 

message: Some people have left notes on Wai Wai's talk page about the style guide changes. Wai Wai has removed them all, including my note intended to discourage such removals. Maurreen 20:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Removing warnings from one's own talk page is unacceptable, per Wikipedia:Vandalism. I think both this edit and this one fall into that category. Stephen Turner (Talk) 20:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

text: What part of "Removing the recent notes here about your changes to the style guide is misleading" do you not understand? And to mark such removals as minor is further misleading. Maurreen 18:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please understand what is "warning" (in your quote) before you make your comment. Next time, for any discussion relating to the article/topic, please reply in the related talk page, instead of forking the discussions over everywhere. it is hard to follow.--Wai Wai (talk) 18:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Removal of material from user talk page