Talk:Sean Lock

message: I removed the statement that said that he was amused by dogs being kicked in the head. There is no reference to this incident, neither is there any context. Furthermore, the statement "thereby losing him many fans" is unattributed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.197.151 (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Dogs

message: Quote from David Baddiel's Wikipedia entry:
The occasionally quoted myth that, Sean Lock became the first comedian to play Wembley Arena, since he was the warm-up act on the night in question, is incorrect: Lock performed extra parts in Newman and Baddiel's sketches and thus didn't come on until 15 minutes into the event  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.248.1 (talk) 21:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Newman and Baddiel]]

message: I recently corrected information about Sean's first TV appearence (1992 The Funny Farm, STV). This was deleted, why?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.222.205 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 30 November 2013‎
:Apologies, I was just reverting all of your funny fake name edits to British comedian articles, I didn't realise you'd also made an ostensibly constructive edit to this one, while editing his real name to "Seamus Escupian Locke".
:Good to see the YouTube source, but it doesn't seem to have a year attached? I've gone ahead and cut the existing claim that Newman and Baddiel was his "first" TV appearance, though, as this isn't sourced either. --McGeddon (talk) 19:56, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Funny Farm

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: "Sean Lock is an atheist". How is that noteworthy? Was this added by an American editor? 62.205.71.238 (talk) 01:41, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Atheism]] 

message: Now The Guardian is saying he died on 16 August 2021  as opposed to 18 August 2021 as said by The Telegraph .  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 17:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Times gives it as 18 August (here), so you have the two papers of records' obits give one date and The Guardian another. Solipsism 101 (talk) 23:11, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I believe that the 18th may have come from us. The 16th is more likely.--Launchballer 00:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's possible but The Times and The Daily Telegraph are both newspapers of record and are reliable. The Guardian is also reliable. Since Telegraph and Times are very reliable they probably would not have just ripped DOD from Wiki, though it still begs the question of where The Guardian got the 16th from (I remember a similiar thing thing happened at Paul Ritter RD, Playbill ripped DOB from Wiki turned out be objectively false due to age and time of death but better RSs found the accurate DOB, though this situation is more tricky). Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 00:47, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Times and Telegraph were operating off of the date of announcement. 16th isn't coming from nowhere, Guardian clearly looked further into the death than other citations. They do this all the time, as Guardian are the place I go to when a DOD is uncertain. Rusted AutoParts 22:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

text: This is still not resolved.  The Guardian still gives his date of death as 16th August (here), while other sources apparently state 18th, the date it was announced.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: They are newspapers of record and considering both of them are saying the 18th compared to the Guardian it is clear it is the 18th. It is OR is assume both the Times and Telegraph are " were operating off of the date of announcement", as they explictly state he died on 18th.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 22:36, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a fallacy. The official statement from his agency had no dates included, which is what the vast majority of the sources reporting his death are citing. Guardians publishes two reports: the first announcement, and then an obituary. There is no date of death used in the first citation, as it was not known or reported through the agency announcement, however thy now report the 16th in their obituary, as they were able to confirm details of the death from those involved. Guardian is the UK’s NYT or WaPo. They do their due diligence. So to reject them because Times and Telegraph cited the announcement date is a fallacy. Rusted AutoParts 22:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The Times reported about the death after the agent announcement with a brief short report with the headline "Comedian and 8 Out of 10 Cats star Sean Lock dies" (now just redirects to main obituary since details were brief) . They then later published a more detailed obituary report here  saying (with a lot of detailed info about Lock which no intial reports contained besides the other in-depths obituaries like The Telegraph and Guardian) saying he died on the 18th. The same thing happened with The Telegraph intial more brief report first published here . Then a later more detailed report  (in addition to further coverage ). The Telegraph and The Times are more comparable to The New York Times as all three are newspapers of record (see that article for more info), whereas The Guardian is not. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 23:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Whether Guardian is a newspaper of record is irrelevant, the Times and Independent article are not death notices directly from the family or funeral home. My other major quibble about the Times and Independent obituaries is that they are just attributed to the papers themselves, not an individual obituary writer. Anthony Hayward penned the Guardian obituary citing the 16th. He is their dedicated obituary writer, and through him was how Desmond Davis was first reported. His work is provable through his profile, whereas we can’t see who is generating the obituaries at the Times/Independent. In that end it would be fair to think they were simply referring back to their initial breaking news reports. Rusted AutoParts 00:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I support this edit of yours: we shouldn't be including the date when RS disagree and obits are being quickly thrown out and then continually edited. Snopes got called out for plagiarism last week in their hurried churnalism (see BuzzFeed News and Snopes's apology) but it's becoming how the industry works more generally, so we are forced to bend over backwards to avoid citogenesis. Hopefully the correct date will become apparent. It is not our fault that a simple fact cannot be agreed on by the media, but that's the situation. Speculation doesn't get us anywhere because the sources are all generally reliable, and which of the 16th or 18th is correct relies on unknown information about which journalist actually got their info from a source close to Lock. — Bilorv (talk) 00:04, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: "Whether Guardian is a newspaper of record is irrelevant" then why did you say The Guardian is supposedly the "UK'S NYT" which it isn't. There's is a difference between just generally reliable sources, and higher quality RSs like The Times and Telegraph (just like there is difference between citing CNN and NYT). "In that end it would be fair to think they were simply referring back to their initial breaking news reports." there is no evidence for this if you read through both Telegraph and Times (assuming you are able to) the obituaries detail many facts not mentioned at all mentioned in the intial death notices. Just have a look at the Early life section of this article (school name, parents names, A-level grade and subject, previous jobs, etc). Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 01:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: We aren't looking for early life details though, we're looking for his date of death. If it's to believed that the 18th is the DOD, why did a career obituary writer cite a different date for Guardian? "In that end it would be fair to think they were simply referring back to their initial breaking news reports" is a fair concern in that regard, because we do not know who is jotting up their version of their Lock obituary saying the 18th was indeed the DOD. We know who Hayward is, we know obituaries are his speciality. So we know he vets the information, and thus we know he got the 16th from a reliable means. Rusted AutoParts 01:44, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

text: I haven't seen a full Independent obit for him yet. Maybe we should wait and see what they say. In the case of actress Barbara Shelley, who died in January, her obits in The Guardian and The Telegraph both misreported her DOD as 4th Jan (as did every other news report of her death) whereas she had actually died the previous day (as was confirmed by her family/funeral home). Her latterly published obits in The Independent and The Times got the date right. Crisso (talk) 23:34, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes I am aware this specific discussion here is not about Early life details. The reason I mention that as evidence that Times and Telegraph obituaries were well researched into the topic not just a simple rehash death notice of Lock’s roles. I am unable answer the question as to why and Guardian said 16th but I same unanswerable question can be said for Times and Telegraph. The assumption of they just used announcement date just doesn’t not seem to hold considering that the articles as a whole were in-depth into the subject.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 02:13, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It is nice that all three outlets were in-depth on his life but I’m not putting Guardian over the other two because of the write-ups themselves, I’m doing so because there is a name to the person doing the Guardian obituary whereas who did the other two isn’t. Since when Lock’s agency did not provide a DOD, no one for sure knew. I feel safe in leaning towards the Guardian due to Hayward’s credentials. If I knew who did the other two, this wouldn’t be a source of contention of their work was of note too. Hayward’s job is to vet the details of the passing. If details like DOD were not available, they would put “death announced” for the date they were announced as passing away. It just seems questionable that Times and Independent cite the 18th at the time when the DOD wasn’t announced, then Hayward at the Guardian publishes his with a date of the 16th. Rusted AutoParts 03:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, having name Anthony Hayward should count for something. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:32, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: As mentioned, The Times and The Telegraph are papers of record; they do not include an author for their obits. Obits are generally more thoroughly researched and offer new insights about a subject (I am thinking about how the authorless The Times obit transformed our understanding of the recently deceased Paul Ritter), I imagine through interviewing family/friends. The two obits did indeed add new knowledge about Lock. Therefore, we shouldn't assume that the two named papers are simply following the initial press release alone without any journalistic work. But it's an unusual situation. Note the dispute in the body, change lead and infobox to Aug and wait for more info? Solipsism 101 (talk) 10:55, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Whilst yes having it authored by Hayward does add some reliablity it is certainly not enough for us to know completely. Two newspapers of record (even without a byline) go with the 18th whilst the Guardian (which does have a byline) goes with 16th, it is not enough for us to conclude the 16th even with Hayward.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 13:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Yes, but we can't use that particular clip is it's a ITV/BBC copyvio. In any case, an interview comment by Bill Bailey can't be taken as an RS for a cause of death - only the official death certificate can provide that. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

text: The S*n  is not reliable. — Bilorv (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

text: And that one is also signed... by Jacob Stolworthy. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:54, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: ''Guardian'' now gives different date

message: Please move "55th greatest" from the lead, this is just a random list show, not any kind of objective assessment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.240.157 (talk • contribs) 12:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It's just a fact. Whether or not you personally agree with it is neither here nor there. The 2007 Channel 4's 100 Greatest Stand-Ups seems a perfectly appropriate medium for that kind of claim. Not sure what an "objective assessment" would be anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: The lead also refers to his writing for other comedians, which doesn't appear to be mentioned elsewhere in the text.  I've slightly reordered that paragraph in a way which I think gives a better balance.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:04, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

text: The C4 ranking is mentioned a bit across articles, especially on deceased or retired comedians, to place them and their achievements into some context. I would support retaining it. Solipsism 101 (talk) 13:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

text: Some comedians and/or legends quite like an arbitary ranking, say being the 41st Best Stand Up Ever, for example. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, in an ironic way. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Listicle 

message: Apparently he has spent some time on a kibbutz? Does anybody know more about this, his motivations for doing something quite out-of-the-ordinary like that, etc? Seems interesting enough to add here.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1333439/Comedian-Sean-Lock-The-night-stand-saved-life.html
81.109.83.155 (talk) 14:50, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: We're not going to use the Daily Mail as a source. Is it covered in other sources? Joseph2302 (talk) 15:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Mentioned in The Telegraph (here).  Solipsism 101 (talk) 15:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

text: It's a bit of a throwaway line in the DM. It just says: "Despite all those hours toiling outside, Sean also enjoyed holidays abroad, travelling in Europe and working on a kibbutz in Israel." 15:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed, and there is cause for a little cation here, on account of Lock's many panel show appearances.  I think the kibbutz thing was mentioned in passing on an episode of Would I Lie to You once upon a time, as was the goat herding thing, though which were in passing and which the subject of a possible-lie/possible-genuine-factoid, I can't recall. The general takeaway (as best I can recall) was that both are true, but the situation underscores the fact that his particular source of fame, and his particular brand of comedy, could lead to anecdotitis, and that some things could easily be communicated along the pop culture pipeline incorrectly.  Of course, we need to go with the reliable secondary sources ultimately, but when a source repeats stories about his past pre-entertainment industry work life, it probably pays to consider whether the statements are based off a direct interview with Lock or have more ambiguous sourcing--and if the latter, it may be reasonable to insist upon more than one source for some details. SnowRise let's rap 23:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Israel]] 

message: We know the Death date now per Telegraph obit (a lot of detailed info there). But still do not know death place other than Lock died at his home per Independent. But not clear where "home" is at the moment so I have just changed it to England for now. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 16:45, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Here's a snippet from Ham & High, about the Muswell Hill soup kitchen ("Purely because the guy who organises it, runs it, created it, lives on my street.": . But then they also have him as born in Woking. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: But this says that he "lived in Lewes, East Sussex, since around 2012...".  So, we don't know. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Also this.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:29, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, although online directories are notoriously often out of date. That was 6-7 years ago. It's not impossible that he owned properties both in Lewes and in Muswell Hill? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

text: That's a fair point it could right. There is als a more detailed article about the soup kitchen here. The "guy" who organises is David Stone who operates it (). Not sure if we should include the death place since it is possible for Lock to know the Stone who runs it whilst both of them not living in the area. Though the article does open as "Muswell Hill comedian Sean Lock...". And yes Ham & High goes with Woking birth date (which appears to not be true per Lock himself, though suprisingly Guardian goes with Woking in their Obit. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 17:25, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Later Guardian obit here does not say that. In fact it says: "born in Chertsey, Surrey, to Mary (nee McCreesh) and Sidney Lock." Martinevans123 (talk) 17:36, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah I see thanks missed that.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 17:37, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

text: The official birth records show Sean M. Lock, mother's maiden name McCreesh, born in the second quarter of 1963 in the Surrey North Western Registration District.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

text: This source states that he "lived in Lewes" and "died at home".  Is that sufficient grounds for us to reliably infer, and state as fact, that he died in Lewes?  I'm unsure whether it does.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

text: PS: A Facebook post refers to him as "former Lewes resident".  Another post says: "...he was a local resident for over 8 years..."    So, I don't think that we can infer that he died in Lewes.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Death place

message: Is currently given as 1998, citing the Telegraph.  Surely that isn't correct. I saw him doing stand-up before then.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.81.51 (talk • contribs) 18:04, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: It was certainly before then.  The Guardian obit quotes him as saying: "I used to go to comedy gigs and see people in pubs in London, then I started doing open spots and it was a hobby for many years... One day I got my first gig and I got paid £15 for 20 minutes, and that’s when I realised you could earn a living from it."  It goes on: "His big break came when he landed a regular guest spot in the 1993 TV sketch show Newman and Baddiel in Pieces. This led him to support Rob Newman and David Baddiel on a tour that year...".  So, early 1990s at the latest.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Apologies when I added this I misspelt "1988" as "1998". I have now corrected it. The full Telegraph source reads: . Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 18:27, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, if only someone had made a recording. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:28, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Date of first official gig 

message: I've seen that other contestants of the British TV show also don't have QI mentioned in their respective filmography pages too, is there already a consensus to this? Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 01:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: I do not know of consensus for excluding QI or other panel shows from filmography (I have not personally had a chance to add them myself yet). There is also quite a few shows sourced in body which are not in the table yet and should be, and there is also BFI listings which are not all covered yet. Still more to add, feel free to help. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 01:36, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Added QI. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 07:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

text: We should surely differentiate between those shows on which he was a permanent team member, and those in which he made one-off guest appearances (like QI).   Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:20, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

text: I always wondered why he suddenly stopped being on the series after about 2010/11. Bill Bailey, Phill Jupitus, Jimmy Carr, etc, continued to be regulars long after that. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  No mention of [[QI]] in Lock's filmography? 

message: The official record of his birth in 1963 gives his name as "Sean M. Lock".  It's a primary source so shouldn't be used here, though "Matthew" (as in this anonymous edit) is certainly plausible.  But, without a reliable source, we shouldn't include it.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:36, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Middle name 

message: In the filmography section, 2001 and This Filthy Earth is out of alignment 47.152.207.163 (talk) 16:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can someone fix the format in the grid?