Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Archive 5

message: Greetings. I'm getting in a dispute in the Basque people article on what the related groups of the infobox should contain. It looks like it could degenerate in an edit war and political discussion, so I'm asking for attention from other interested people in order to de-polarize the still incipient conflict. 
Basically the points are two: 
# Related peoples are: Gascons (Riojans maybe) and, in general, Western Europeans.
# Related peoples are: Gascons, Spanish, French and, in general, Western Europeans.
The arguments for the second are, in my understanding clearly political (we discussed genetics for a while but it seems that LSLM realized that such approach gave no fruits). 
I have posted several examples of other stateless ethnicities infoboxes but it seems to be of no help. He's falling in accusing me of "fundamentalism" and stuff like that. Whatever your viewpoint of the issue it's clear that less heated viewpoints are urgently needed. Thanks. 
(Note: I've posted the same request at the Basque Wikiproject). --Sugaar 14:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Basque people]] needs neutral viewpoints 

message: Race. Ethnic Groups.
Successive Myanmar Military leaders repeatedly claim that Muslims in Myanmar (Burma) could not be called, registered or enlisted as a separate race.
They are giving various reasons or lame excuses  for that attempts of Ethnic Cleansing.(I hope Wikipedia could stay neutral and resist on this issue of the attemps by some of its own Burmese Chauvinist editors to erase my Burmese Muslims/Myanmar Muslims and Burmese Indian Muslims/Myanmar Indian Muslims --
1.Muslims in Myanmar (Burma) are mix-blooded people, not pure race as Burmese Buddhists.
2.Muslims are migrants only and not the original people of the land.
3.Muslims are scattered all over the country without owning a separate state as other races of Burma.
4.No race can be formed base on the religion.
5.By calling Kala, meaning Indian, the authorities equate all the Muslims with the recent migrants of Indians under the British or even trying to accuse as fresh illegal immigrant.
6.The hidden agenda is their deep-seated fear of propagation of Islam. They are scared of future Muslim dominance although it is not possible.
We hereby intend to consider some undeniable facts about the three crucial words of –
Now let us look at the “ROOTS OF MYANMAR MUSLIMS.”
Forefathers of Myanmar Muslims had landed in Myanmar (Burma’s Rakhine, Ayeyarwady delta and Tanintharyi coast) as early as ninth century, roughly about 200 years before King Anawrahta of Pagan established the first Myanmar (Burmese) empire in 1055 AD. 
He later concurred the King Manuha and Buddhist Mons of Thaton. He then invited Shin Arahan to propagate Buddhist teaching among people of Pagan. So the Buddhist religion reached Burma much later than the arrival of Islam. But we had to admit that the Hindus and Buddhists arrived the lower Burma (not owned by the Burmese or Myanmar yet) earlier than the Islam.
Because of that uniting force of Buddhist Religion, the original three Ethnic Minority Groups of Pagan: Pyu, Kan Yan and Thet assimilated homogeneously into present Myanmars.
So, we hereby want to challenge present Myanmar Generals, especially BSPP/SLORC/SPDC and cohorts Burmese Chauvinists to deny that the Buddhist Religion forms the backbone of the formation of Burmans or Myanmars.
Even the Chinese, Indian Hindus, Indian Muslims, Japanese and some Anglo Burmans if they convert (or pretend to convert to) Buddhism they would be homogeneously assimilated into Burmese Buddhists. Burmese Chinese like General Ne Win, General Khin Nyunt, President San Yu etc are accepted as “PURE BURMESE” and given hightest positions.  When SHIA MUSLIM U Sein Win and Sunni Dr Maung Di renounced Islam, they were accepted into the mainstream administration, Sein Win was even given PM post. Mg Di deputy Ed. Minister. There are many mixed –blooded people in Myanmar disguised as PURE Bamas. During the SPDC’s present registration on issuing National Identity Cards, if any said he  or she is Buddhist no more questions, easily accepted as pure Bama. But one the relagion is Islam, even if he or se is recently converted into Islam, they refused to accept as a pure race.
It is not a simple, minor issue but the very important thing of denying a citizen’s right to posess a National Identity Card. Without it could not travel inside or outside MYANMAR/Burma.
1.Race.
2.Ethnic Minority Group and,
3.Citizen.
We should analyze which groups of people are deserved to be called or who have
the sole right to be called a separate Race, separate distinct Ethnic Minority Group or a real Citizen.
1.Are only so called “pure race” should be called a race and not so pure or mixed blooded people could not stay together to form a RACE?
2.Or are those “pure blooded” races are really pure enough?
3.Are those “Original Owners of the Land” really true or just mere early Migrants, reserving and monopolizing the place?
4.Are migrants always regarded as migrants without entitlement to any Human Rights or Citizens’ Rights, even after few generations?
5.Well-established migrants, after already accepted as a citizen are still foreigners?
6.Are descendents of migrants and local mixed marriages still alien after few generations?
7.Could a conqueror of the war just annexes the new territory and regarded the locals staying in that land as Foreigners and started the ethnic cleansing?
8.Could that conqueror brought back the prisoners of war back, for various reasons e.g. slavery, to serve in various positions, civil or army, and allowed to settle in the heart of the country as permanent aliens for few generations?
9.Could the kings, after accepting the helping friendly allied forces, allow them to settle in his country, gave land, property and even brides as rewards after the victory, but a few generations later kicked them out as lousy migrants?
10.After staying few dozens of years or few centuries under a foreign powers as a colony, once got the independence, could the new local government start to kick out the migrants entered during the period of colony?
11.Could they erase the real historical fact of gaining their independence after all was obtained with the help of so-called migrants?
12.Should they neglect the promises of fair and equal treatment they had given to those Migrants and the colonial masters before gaining the independence?
13.Is a religion could never form the backbone of a race?
14.Is descendents of migrants could never form a separate or distinct race?
15.Is a religion could never form the backbone of an ethnic minority group?
16.Is descendents of migrants could never form an ethnic minority group?
17.To be regarded as a race, ethnic minority group or a citizen, is there any rule to be the original settler or owner of a land? Country? Or a State?
18.Have the Migrants no chance to be accepted as citizens?
Although all of the above questions lead to undeniable truth, we like to highlight the above axioms with the following facts. They are taken from the world’s historical theatre and our Myanmar (Burmese) geography and local history.
Race.
A group of people with a certain sense of itself and cohesiveness is called a race. There is usually a commonality or shared values such as: social, culture, attitudes and ideals.The most important bond and determining all these is a religion. There is usually a common language, literature and a territory.
It may be a ‘pure’ race (homogeneous) e.g. Arian, Mongoloid or African. Or a ‘mixed’ race (heterogeneous) that is a mixture of few tribes, clans or minority groups. They mixed, stayed and struggled together with the sense of unity.
Let us look at how Islam deals with this sensitive racial issue as Arabs were and are so proud of their race.
Islam not only recognises absolute equality between men irrespective of any distinction of colour, race or nationality, but also makes it an important and significant principle, a reality. 
All Human are descendants of one father and one mother.
The division of the human race is neither meant for one nation to take pride in its superiority over others nor is it meant for one nation to treat another with contempt or disgrace, or regard them as a mean and degrade other races and usurp their rights.
South Africa Zulu is the combination of many tribes and clans by a powerful worrier in nineteenth century. So it is obvious that they are not homogeneous.
African Americans & Asian Americans are regarded as recognized Ethnic Minority Groups but there are many subgroups under them.
Among Asian Americans, some of the bigger groups such as Indian Americans and Chinese Americans could be subdivided according to the clan, dialect, religion and their home state or district.
So it is very obvious that non-homogeneous or more correctly, heterogeneous factor could not rule out the legality of a race.
Owning a territory, land, state or country is not very important to become a race. 
Israelis and Palestinians have no homeland at all earlier in the long world history. Actually they were not the original owners of that sacred land.
Just because they had no land, we could not deny the fact that, the Israelis and Palestinians distinct and famous races. They were even mentioned in three holy books and their racial conflict was and is the world’s most important and dangerous problems.
Most of the American Ethnic Groups also have no separate states. 
Or some Ethnic Groups’ historical territories may be occupied by different nations or countries at present. 
We like to give some examples. 
Mons of Myanmar, Thailand and Cambodia, now occupied by three separate countries.
Like some of the Myanmar Ethnic Groups, the Malays, Indonesians and Polynesians had descended from the Yunan 
But few historians are thinking about the possibility of reverse migration from Australia side. But some Polynesians have got some mixture of Africa.
But even recently some genetic experts found out that there is some evidence that the Chinese originally descended and migrated from Africa. 
Actually the “Bush People” featured in ‘ God is crazy 2’ are a little bit yellow and their features are some what like Myanmar or Mongoloid. (One of the Myanmar Doctor, Anaesthetic in Namabia wrote in the Myanmar Magazine in 1998).
Karens of Myanmar and Thailand. 
Shans, Siam and Southern Chinese (Nankhan) divided into the races of Myanmar, Thailand, Laos and some Chinese ethnic minorities.Nagas of Myanmar and India are exactly same races in different countries.
And many Ethnic Minority Groups commonly found in China and India are also found and recognised as prided or precious nationals of Myanmar especially in Kachin and Shan States.
So the relation of the citizenship for the same race staying in different country is totally different.
Relation between the race and history of land ownership is also irrelevant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darz kkg (talk • contribs) 02:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This seems an exceedingly long essay for the project talk page. I skimmed it quickly, and see no reason to read it; I don't have a lot of time right now. Perhaps there is an article talk page to which it is relevant? Or perhaps it is just off-topic opinionating (I cannot quickly tell). If it is the former, would someone please move it and leave a pointer from here? And if it is the latter, would someone please revert it? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 19:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  EVOLUTION OF MYANMAR MUSLIMS. 

message: Hello! Just thought of checking with you guys if said article is within your scope. --Pinay06 05:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure it is. I'm adding the template right now. Thanks. --Sugaar 18:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Eskaya]] 

message: Why does it say "You guys know about those sea turtles?" under the section "Amish as an ethnic group." Didn't want to change it in case there was a reason but....
168.122.159.75 21:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what you're talking about. It sounds like vandalism of some sort but unless you provide a more specific link, I don't know where to look at. --Sugaar 14:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Amish

message: Hi, if I wanted to chip in and do some of the grunt work on some of these articles, do I just add my name to participants, to join the project?  Or is it by invitation only or something like that?  Thanks.  Tuviya 06:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You add yourself and start working (up to your prossibilities of course). Welcome. --Sugaar 14:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Query. 

message: Just have a look at the article white people. There are 3 fundamental and continuous types of systematic bias.
1.US systematic bias at the definition of White.
2. Anglo-Saxon systematic bias at the definition of white.
3. Extreme White Nationalist systematic bias at the definiton of white.
I think articles like this should be a priority because they compromise Wiki standards and credibility seriously. Veritas et Severitas 22:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that we should try to distinguish articles that are about a term (negro, white people), articles that are about an ethnic group (Zulu, African American, Romanians, Ashkenazi Jews), and articles that are about a census category or about social understanding of race (White American). I suspect that if White people is at all a useful article topic, it would be in the last category. - Jmabel | Talk 02:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  White people page subject to profound and clearly suspicious bias. 

message: Hi, could someone please re-rate the Dutch (ethnic group) article according to the projects quality scale? I feel doing it myself (as one of the articles main editors) is a bit not done. Nevertheless the article is currently B-class and after viewing a few A-class articles I think this article should be rated higher. So if anyone could take a look and make up his/her own mind?Rex 12:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is too much lacking inline citation for A-class. It's possible that other articles have been given A-class that should not have been. Those are the ones whose ratings should be reviewed! - Jmabel | Talk 23:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New Rating for the [[Dutch (ethnic group)]] article. 

message: Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention.  Badbilltucker 22:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wikipedia Day Awards