Talk:Peter Jones (missionary)

message: Note that his sister Mary and his sister Polly are the same person.  Don't forget this. WilyD 17:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mary & Polly 

message: * Talks about his journal and maybe more (it's all kinds of long) WilyD
* On William Case, but need a stub on that for support and likely talks extensively about Jones
* His book on converting Ojibwa WilyD
*Guardianship under Captain Jim discussed at Smith, 68
*Dr. Peter Edmund Jones is in Smithsonian Photoraph 498-a-1 or 498-a-I ... find out about its publication/taker. WilyD 02:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources of interest 

message: Three clicks northeast of Brantford (probably in Brantford now). WilyD 12:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Echo Place

message: Track down this:
* Translates : Luke into Mohawk; http://www.jstor.org/stable/1409163?seq=8
All others works now incorporated into "Bibliography" section. CJLippert (talk) 16:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: All the source says is "He also rendered St. Luke into Mohawk". I wonder if Victoria College has a copy. WilyD 17:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

text: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/168 This page in his journal recounts his being assigned to write the spelling book.  I think it's June 2, 1828. WilyD 23:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Seems like he didn't dick around.  http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/175 He showed up at the printers June 19, 1828.  Mr MacKenzie - I'll bet that's William Lyon Mackenzie - how many printers do you think were in York, Upper Canada in 1828? WilyD 02:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you look at this (the "Spelling" portion), there are only 12 printed pages... that's only 3 sheets of paper... really, really short! Now don't laugh at this, on page 8, it says "Words of four syllables accented on the sixth." If this short book is by Jones, I bet in his haste got ningoding ("on the first") and ningodwaaching ("on the sixth") mixed up. (In Ojibwe 1-6, 2-7, and 3-8 are a variation of each other, while 4, 5, 9 and 10 aren't, but all higher counting numbers are variations of these). As I somehow doubt that the Methodist's Canada Conference Missionary Society would have had more than one spelling book printed in Ojibwe, shall we safely assume that the short spelling book attached to the front end of Summerfield's "Grammar" is Jones' "Spelling" and adjust the title accordingly in the article's Bibliography section and provide an external link to Project Gutenberg? CJLippert (talk) 03:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Jones said explicitly he didn't know of any such previous attempt or contemporary attempt, so this is probably right. After all, it was 16 days from William Case recommending he write a spelling book to William Mckenzie typesetting it.WilyD 03:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Careful about this print, see Sommerfeld's writing of the first grammar - http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Life_and_journals_of_Kah-ke-wa-quo-na-by.djvu/397  WilyD 13:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If John Summerfield died in 1836 and was about 20, that means Grammar written in 1834 was written when Summerfield was 18. This could mean Spellings written in 1828 could not have been written by Summerfield (who would have been 12)... so I think this boosts the chances that Spellings was indeed written by Jones. CJLippert (talk) 00:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Good eye.  I suppose that's why it's helpful to have collaborators.  The Grammar must be something different. WilyD 03:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: If you go to Project Gutenberg and compare the Spelling and Grammar, though similar, the two have a different feel (mainly because of slightly different orthography between the two). Spelling used by George Copway is much closer to what Jones used than what Summerfield used. CJLippert (talk) 04:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Books!

message: I'm certainly no expert in Methodism; hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will also review.  I have the following questions and concerns:
#The "Conversion" section says "ones attended a camp-meeting of the Methodist Episcopal Church in Ancaster Township."  The link goes to an article about a Methodist denomination in the United States.  The Ancaster Township link goes to a location in Canada.  This appears to be a discrepancy.  What does the source say specifically?  (We could have the wrong Wikipedia link, or the denomination article could be deficient - looking at Methodism#Canada the second is quite likely.)
:#Err, my impression is that the early goings of Methodism in Canada were an extension of the American church.  Doesn't say in the article, but I think Sacred Feathers makes mention of when a seperate church is founded in British North America, I think it's ~1825 ... I also suspect it's the second, but I'll try and find the relevent part in my sources. WilyD 15:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, is this wrong?  It was set up, but not run by a minister - neither Thomas Davis nor Peter Jones were ministers at this point.  The source just says a "congregation", but see congregation; no other obvious target exists. WilyD 12:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The link (which does not exist) that you are looking for is to the meaning of the first bullet at congregation.  A generic congregational church has a church goverment/denominational system (Congregationalist polity) in which each church is independent and autonomously runs its own affairs, there is no episcopate (bishops).  The Congregational church link is a movement of congregational churches. It is the "Wesleyan politics" section that most clearly convinces me that you don't actually mean a congregational church in either the generic or specific sense; though the Methodist Episcopal history was a strong warning sign; the episcopacy and congregational church goverment are incompatible.  In Canada, the methodist and congregational churches merged to form the United Church of Canada in 1925, which is a bit after Peter Jones had died.  GRBerry 14:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, okay.  I suppose I'll just delink it for now. WilyD 14:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Err, this point, at least, is a typo.  I've found wikt:proselytize which is not.  Perhaps it's not needed, but it strikes me as a three dollar word, which might at least benefit from this.  WilyD 15:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Methodism review 

message: Just calling attention to the Peer Review. WilyD 14:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Peer Review 

message: Required for all date ranges: please see WP:DASH. Tony (talk) 09:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  En dashes 

message: Very nice. This could be a FA without too much work, I'd expect. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 00:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: GA

message: Hey, after I added in a few more books written by Peter Jones under the "Bibliography" and took a look at the article, I have noticed the article says "Matthew" was translated in 1832 but the various resources out there on the 'net says 1829. I don't know if the 1832 version is a revised version of the 1829 or if the 1829 version didn't get published until 1832, but this inconsistency is apt to be noticed. While at it, all the dates should be verified to ensure the article don't contradict itself. CJLippert (talk) 20:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sacred Feathers (page 129) refers to Matthew being published while Peter's in England for the first time, which puts the publishing in 1831 or 1832.  I think the translation was completed before this.  "Finished translating in '29, finally printed in '32" is the most sensible resolution of this I can see. WilyD 20:49, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

text: Also says the finished translating John in '31, the second such translation the brothers did, after Matthew.  So yes, probably translated in '29, printed in '32. WilyD 20:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds logical, but I found the smoking gun. It seems that in 1829 a partial translation of Matthew was published, while a full translation of Matthew came out in 1832. I've added in the partial translation into the "Bibliography" section. I just finished adding in the title's Fiero spelling and the translation of the title... which is quite different from the English sub-title that was provided. There seems to have been other partial translation of various Bible sections. I wonder if this was done in such a way to raise funds to continue with the remainder of the translations? CJLippert (talk) 16:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: He did a lot of fund raising with speaking tours, but I doubt publishing bits of the bible in Ojibwe made any money.  Maybe it made them look better, so they could make stronger claims about their work.  Maybe they were just anxious to get stuff out as fast as they could. I would guess more like that latter - in Peter's case, it was clear that preaching to the Ojibwa had to be done in Ojibwe to be effective - even a few scraps of writings would be enormously valuable. WilyD 16:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent years 

message: Section Credit mission, last para:
:Colborne looked far more favourably on the Methodists, but still hoped to replace the influence of American Methodists with British Wesleyans.
What's the difference? Needs clarification, maybe. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 12:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The religious difference?  I have no idea, and I'm pretty sure Colborne couldn't give a flying fart.  It's the American vs. British that had the bee in his bonnet. WilyD 12:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: ??

message: In Canada the term "Indian" to refer to people of Aboriginal origin is frequently seen as inappropriate and / or derrogatory.  Pursuantly I have modified the entry, replacing the word "indian" with more neutral terms such as "native" or "aboriginal person" except where referencing what others would have, at that time, called an aboriginal person where I have inserted "quotation marks" around the word "Indian". 64.201.173.189 (talk) 13:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So I think you're about right in that usage.  We should stick to Indian here, I think, though (especially for direct quotes, book titles, Jones' self-identification & whatnot. WilyD 16:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree--I never made that initial comment/edit, I was just reading the page and noticed what you wrote. - 209.139.232.70 (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: "Indian" inappropriate

message: article states that Peter Jones' father was Augustus Jones, an American born Welsh immigrant.  can't be.  can't be born in America and be a Welsh immigrant at the same time.  (Omdhjr (talk) 19:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  re. Peter Jones' father 

message: I find this article incredibly offensive in a number of ways. Firstly, it's blatantly Euro-centric and pro-Christian and seems to glorify the cultural genocide of Native American peoples.
I think this article needs a major re-write to remove this bias.
-Jeff  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drosera99 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Offensive

message: Dcoetzee 04:14, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested image 

message: I still don't understand the objection to either of my versions compared to this version. All three versions are identical, with the exception that neither of mine is in a clean up category and the other version is in a clean up category. Featured articles should not be in clean up categories. I fail to see why a genuine good faith attempt to maintain the article should be labeled as vandalism or damage. DrKiernan (talk) 10:49, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clean up category 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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message: Okay, some links to pssibly get towards a more critical view ? 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
** Via his son
* 
* 
:These may be of aid to anyone (including me) hoping to update the article with newer sources.  But while some are perhaps more critical of of the British or Upper Canadian government/settlers, I really can't seem to find anything critical of Peter to support the idea the IP is trying to present.  I'll look a bit more.  WilyD 19:08, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moderner perspectives