Talk:Carnedd Llewelyn

message: I can't let this one go by without comment: Google Earth is about the least reliable thing in the world when it comes to place-names. Yes, it's got "Carnedd Llewelyn", and that can't just be coincidence, but it also has "Elidyr-fawr", "Filiast", "Moel Sesiog" and, best of all, "Caderddris"! I'm almost tempted to count Google Earth's use of "Carnedd Lewelyn" as evidence that that spelling must be wrong. --Stemonitis 18:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I'm moidering, and for comedy purposes only, I'll point out Peakware's page on the mountain (a site which must be discounted for being apparently based on our page). Woe betide anyone who dares to climb in March (presumably from "Llanberies" to see the "superp" views)! --Stemonitis 18:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Comments on the sources

message: I think we've accumulated enough references to get a better picture of the usages of the two spellings.  Can I try to summarise the main points?
*Etymologically and culturally speaking, Llywelyn is the correct spelling.
*The Ordnance Survey, generally perceived as the single most reliable source on common spelling, almost exclusively uses the spelling Llewelyn; amongst the other mapping companies, usage is more-or-less evenly split.
*Walking guides, etc., use both spellings with perhaps a few trends:
**Guides covering a large area of the country are more likely to favour Llewelyn, probably by reference to the OS and due to the authors not having detailed local cultural knowledge;
**Guides specific to Wales, or just Snowdonia, are more likely to favour Llywelyn, especially when written by a Welsh autthor.
*Local usage appears to predominately favour Llywelyn.
*It seems that there may have have been a trend for regarding Llewelyn as an anglicisation of Llywelyn.
I think this also explains why the various contributors have disparate experiences with the spellings.  The books the I own are more usually hill lists and quite general purpose walking guides, and most of my maps are OS; it's therefore not surprising that I've rarely encountered Llywelyn.  Those contributors whose interests are more local and/or cultural, are  likely to have a different collection of books or their bookshelves, and they've probably encountered Llywelyn rather more. — ras52 13:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This may or may not help us decide what to call the article, but I've drafted a paragraph that attempts to present the above in a NPOV and verifiable way. Improvements are welcome; it's hard not to stray into the realms of original research with this kind of debate. Whatever the article title, I think the two names should both be bolded in the opening sentence so as to give the alternative form something approaching equal weight. --Blisco 21:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Blisco.  That looks good.  — ras52 02:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

text:  * Just like to add -  A Welsh Classical Dictionary, Peter C. Bartrum (The National Library of Wales, 1993, ISBN: 0-907158-73-0). Under the entry LLEWELYN, Professor Bartrum writes 'See LLYWELYN', and all the entries are under that spelling of the name. I think that this is the way that the entry for Carnedd Llywelyn should be, and include both names on the page.
That spelling is local usage, and academically correct. CatlinJ 23:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Summary

message: I've just read through this page one more time in order to come up with some stats. Here they are:
:Contributors' views.
::FOR Carnedd LLYWELYN - 6 (CatlinJ, BrynLlywelyn, Hogyn Lleol, Enaidmawr, Drachenfyre, Gowron)
::Initially neutral, finally in favour of Carnedd LLYWELYN - 1 (Blisco)
::FOR using the most most widely used form in English, whichever that may be - 1  (garik)
::UNDECIDED/NEUTRAL - 1 (Stemonitis,
::Strongly AGAINST - 1 (ras52)
:Authorities quoted in list (see above).
::Carnedd LLYWELYN - 18 [mostly local or Welsh language sources — ras52 - I've balanced this somewhat, I've not added up the total Gowron)]
::Carnedd LLEWELYN - 10 (mostly following the OS or unreliable, e.g. GoogleEarth)
I move that this article be moved to Carnedd Llywelyn as the majority of contributors to this debate are for it and the sources back their argument. Enaidmawr 23:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed  Hogyn Lleol 07:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: Ye gods, this is still going on? If that's the consensus, move it and be done with it. But somewhere (over on WP:WWNB, perhaps), we really need to establish how reliable, authoritive and/or citable we think the OS is, generally, and whether there are any exceptions. OS spellings have come up here, Talk:Crickhowell, Talk:Aberdyfi  and probably all sorts of other places: those are just some I remembered. The people on WP:SCO might have an opinion, too, as the question of Gaelic placenames regularly crops up. Telsa (talk) 09:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: WP:WWNB certainly isn't the place to decide a general policy.  The reliability (or otherwise) of the OS isn't a Welsh-specific issue.  — ras52 18:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I'm not too fussed about where it happens, but I think it is worth looking at. If you have suggestions on where better, feel free to go for it. (And if I don't respond, drop a note on my talk page; I don't watch this page regularly.) Telsa (talk) 21:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

text: I would still like to see someone actually address the issues I've raised rather than simply reasserting the same undisputed points about the mountain's etymology.  However I can see that's unlikely to happen.  So if the move does go ahead, can the person doing it please make some effort to update the mountain's spelling in the hills lists (etc.) that link to it.[— ras52 18:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Final Summary 

message: I'm disturbed to discover that, in contravention of WP:CANVAS#Votestacking, Enaidmawr is trying to stack votes in this poll , ,
, 
.  This behaviour is not acceptable on Wikipedia.  — ras52 20:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Vote stacking

message: Today I tried to move this article to Carnedd Llywelyn, considering that consensus was sufficient for a move, but found that the move was blocked because of a (rather unnecessary) edit history at the latter page; this means that a move request will have to be made. I don't have time for much Wiki activity these days, and really don't feel strongly about the issue, so it's up to anyone who does to do the necessaries. (I would also reiterate ras52's request to take the effort to change the spelling on articles that link to this one, where appropriate.) --Blisco 21:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Page move

message: I'm about to revert the part of this edit which removed reference to Snowdon as CL's parent peak under the commit message "parent peak is NOT Snowdon!".  There are some cases where a mountain's parent peak is either not obvious or is unknown (due to unknown details of the local topography), but this is not one of those cases!  CL's parent must clearly be a taller and more prominent mountain: solely based on this observation, it must be either Snowdon or a mountain up in the Scottish Highlands.  And it's pretty clear that both Pen-y-Pass and the A5 west of Capel Curig (the two candidates for its key col —  in fact it is the A5) are both over 300 m — much higher than the highest point in Scotland's Central Belt (which you must pass to get the Highlands).  So in this case, there's absolutely no doubt that Snowdon must be CL's parent peak.  The fact is quoted elsewhere in Wikipedia without demur, for example here and here.  Perhaps you've misunderstood what parent peak means? — ras52 10:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Parent peak

message: The renaming of Carnedd Uchaf as Carnedd Gwenllian has been in the news recently, and it's worth noting that the two variant spellings of the neighbouring peak's name were used interchangeably in the English-language media. The Welsh Assembly Government, Western Mail, NewsWales and this Snowdonia tourist website all spell Carnedd Llywelyn with two ys. The OS spelling is used by the Daily Post, the BBC (albeit in a page from 2005) and this mountaineering site. At the very least this should be reflected in a change to the article's opening line:
:Carnedd Llewelyn, usually spelt Carnedd Llywelyn in Welsh → Carnedd Llewelyn (also spelt Carnedd Llywelyn, as it is usually [if not invariably?] spelt in Welsh)
But if both spellings are equally valid in English, I would prefer Llywelyn in the article title, as it is the standard form for the princes of that name. Ham 20:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Carnedd Llywelyn, spelt thus, in the news

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified  on Carnedd Llewelyn. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141024042110/http://www.eryri-npa.gov.uk/Education/snowdonia-national-park/mountains-of-snowdonia to http://www.eryri-npa.gov.uk/Education/snowdonia-national-park/mountains-of-snowdonia
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:09, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Carnedd Llewelyn. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061205211419/http://bubl.ac.uk/org/tacit/tables/wales/ to http://bubl.ac.uk/org/tacit/tables/wales/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927100850/http://www.walkeryri.org.uk/Routes/3carneddau.htm to http://www.walkeryri.org.uk/Routes/3carneddau.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:39, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified