Talk:2005 Cronulla riots

message: "The violence then spread to Ashfield in Sydney's Inner West, as well as suburbs in Greater Western Sydney, with outbreaks in Bankstown and Punchbowl."[15]
The footnote that this sentence points to mentions the suburb of Maroubra. Why are these other suburbs mentioned?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.4.26 (talk) 11:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: When reading this article I checked the references cited and I noticed a distrubing trend.
When the references, majority of them from Media websites, stated "people/men of Mediterranean or Middle Eastern appearance" the author of the Cronulla Riots Wiki article had changed it to "Arab or Lebanese people/men".
I asked all editors of Wiki that they stay true to their references or not add the references at all.
RenziAu (talk) 02:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Please reference correctly

message: I decided that The article was in to much of a mess to clean properly, so I decided to start again from scratch. I have now copy–pasted my version over the older version. The new version is a bit smaller (3,020 words/42,947 bytes) compared to the older version (5,455 words/57,952 bytes) but is CITEd a lot better, much more NPOV. Lets try and improve the article instead of getting into flame and edit wars. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 08:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Article Tubala Rasa

message: Thanks for all the great work on a complex article.I'm curious as to the reports of people being forced to kiss the Australian flag, under threats of violence for not doing it.Such a warped patriotism needs study and reporting.Thanks to Sanquis Sanies & all for good work. Should article be frozen by locking to save all the references etc?It's such a hotbed of controversy.Ern Malleyscrub (talk) 04:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Australian Flag Kissing

message: It seems odd to me that in the section describing the initial riot that spawned from Cronulla, it offhandedly mentions 26 people being treated for injuries, including 2 who required hospitalisation, while in the section describing the "retalliation" the perpetrators are vigorously described and the victims noted individually. Often this can occur when media reports are limited on an event like attacks in Iraq. However I remember clearly hearing numerous articles quoting victims of the original white rioters, such as an Italian and a South American man confused for Lebanese and assaulted. The fact that these articles are not cited and that the articles describing the small number of assaults later that have been labelled "retalliations" seems to me to be deliberate soap boxing and bias intended to give people a certain emotive response to this article.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have these articles? I'd be glad to incorporate them into the article. Additionally in "Retaliation" I did go into extra detail based on the sources I had, I gave as much detail as was available into the police officer and ambulance officers that were injured. It's not a bias on my behalf (and certainly not soapboxing), just going on the information from the sources I could find. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 07:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the article now looks more like a hit piece. There was considerably more "white" violence than the article implies. I deleted attacks that occured after the riots ended that had nothing to do with them. Wayne (talk) 18:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This article panders to the people who caused all the trouble and is far too politically correct; so much so that anyone who didn't already know what happened would be left totally confused and wouldn't be able to figure out what was going on. The article should make clear in the introduction that the life guards were beaten up by a Middle Eastern gang and told that the gang owned the beach from then on. The article should also mention the teenager who burnt the Australian flag from the RSL club, since that was an important event that many people would remember. (Huey45 (talk) 02:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The article is accurately based on the sources. Your description - "the life guards were beaten up by a Middle Eastern gang and told that the gang owned the beach from then on" - is not an accurate reflection of the most reliable sources. It presents as fact what was a report or allegation, and implies the initial alleged violence was one-way, whereas the event apepars to have been an escalating exchange beginning with verbal abuse from both sides. I am not aware of a reliable source confirming that the eight men were a gang (which would be taken to mean an organisation, not just a group of friends), nor that they said that they "owned the beach from then on", though there may be claims that this was said. The article does a reasonable job of presenting a very controversial topic i think. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Bias and balance?

message: Note on this -
Australian Prime Minister John Howard condemned the violence describing it as “sickening and deplorable”[44] but denied any racial undertones saying the events were primarily an issue of law and order:[44][46] “The Sydney riots were an example of hoodlums who got out of control.”[45]
If you go to the article cited in #45, it appears that the quote about "hoodlums" actually came from Peter Costello. The way it's written is unclear and could be read as attributing the quote to John Howard.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by FlyingSquirrel42 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks! I've reworded it to suit - that was a fairly significant error, so I'm very glad it was spotted. :) - Bilby (talk) 01:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Howard / Costello quotes

message: Hi all, I'm new to wikipedia, but I thought it was worth noting the very strange sentences handed down to multiple people involved in the riot. As stated in the article
Yahya Jamal Serhan was arrested over the stabbing of “Dan” on December 12 and charged with affray and maliciously inflicting grievous bodily harm and was sentenced to 13 months jail but was immediately released after having already spent nine months in custody awaiting trial.[22][34] Dan was angered and disappointed by the sentence “I’ve got no feeling on the left hand side of my back where the knife broke off.”[34] A second person, a 17-year–old, was also questioned by police.[35]
Marcus Kapitza,[36] 28, was jailed for 12 months after pleading guilty to one charge of riot.[36] On the day of the riot Kapitza wore a singlet with the words “Mohammed was a camel-raping faggot.”[36] He was also involved in the attack at the train station shouting “Fuck off! Fuck off the Lebs.”[36] Brent Lohman,[37] 19, was also charged over the train station assault was sentenced to 11 months in jail.[37]
I'm sure it's worth noting in an encyclopedia that words and writing are considered worse crimes than stabbing someone. Like I said I'm new to this so please go easy but I thought this should be included thanks =)124.176.145.205 (talk) 13:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contreversy in sentencing 

message: During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
* http://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/publication/PDF/other%20reports/review%20of%20emerency%20powers%20to%20prevent%20or%20control%20disorder.pdf
** In 2005 Cronulla riots on 2011-05-25 07:56:52, 404 Not Found
** In 2005 Cronulla riots on 2011-06-12 00:55:04, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 00:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead link 

message: Based on he above comments, I have tidied many of the citations- but it still has a long way to go. Mostly, to improve readibilty, i shifted the citations ot the end of sentences or paragraphs,but have actually removed only one- an opinion piece by Paul Shehan, which only repeated and editorialised coments provieded in other places.
There are still around 19 citation of the sixty minutes article- not sure if we actually need any of them... WotherspoonSmith (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing citations, tidyng text 

message: Why is this not in the category "racism in Australia"?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.17.99 (talk) 00:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Because it's already in :Category:Race riots in Australia, which is a subcategory of the racism cat. Graham87 15:32, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Erm... 

message: This largely relates to the guy who was stabbed near Woolooware Golf Club. . dailymail.co.uk, but may also have other details not currently covered in the article. 220 of Borg 11:47, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent source 

message: I'd like to compare this article to the 2005 Paris riots article in order to show its many shortfalls. In particular, I came here looking for background and aftermath of this incident, but the wiki article is basically useless in both regards. There's no mention of Lebanese gangs being a growing source of concern of the previous decade, but for some bizarre reason there is a mention that 'westies' often get in to fights at the beach. For those unaware, that's the equivalent of an American saying "rednecks sometimes get in to fights at the beach". It is a very strange thing to put in an encyclopaedia. There is also a lot of use of language such as "a media report states" and "the claim was made" when speaking of things that might damage the image of one ethnicity, but anything in their favour, or damaging to the other ethnicity involved, is merely stated as fact. The talk page talks at length about using good sources - but the article quotes Alan Jones at length. This is a man that made a living from saying stupid things for the purpose of creating controversy.
The background needs to mention the previous growing concerns, particularly in light of resistance from police to admit that gangs were related to ethnicity, suppressing reports to the contrary, leading to policing failures such as the gang rapes that terrorised Sydney for so long, a refusal to work with Police Commissioner Ryan who warned of Lebanese gangs, and the belief that police would not help people if the perpetrators were of a particular ethnicity. Sydney from the late nineties up to this point were terrorised by gangs such as the DK boys; the drive by shooting of a police station; the gang rapists that used taunts such as "you're not human, just an Aussie" and "we wouldn't do this to a real muslim girl, just white sluts"; attempted terrorist attack on the nuclear plant shortly before; actual terrorist attacks by muslims in Bali; and other worldwide events showing the radicalisation of those from the middle east. The aftermath needs to mention the formation of the Middle Eastern Organised Crime Squad, and its current focus on Australians fighting for ISIS and other terrorist organisations. I mention their current focus because of the ignorant statements elsewhere on this talk page that 'bogans' are just as bad as the Sydney gang rapists, and that macho surfies are as bad as middle eastern gangs: 
"a suicide bomber who killed three people in Baghdad in July. The Islamic State named the bomber as Abu Bakr al-Australi on its Twitter feed.
It also includes two men from Sydney, Khaled Sharrouf and Mohamed Elomar, who have posted images from Syria on Twitter, showing them posing with the heads of executed fighters, holding guns and standing over bloodied bodies."
Frankly, all I got from the wiki article as it stands is "there was a fight, then a riot, because Australia is racist." It's exactly the sort of response that allowed the fear to fester to begin with, and directly led to people believing a violent protest was the only way they could respond. I write this here, and not in the article, because I know it will be deleted. That's Wikipedia - more biased, more irrelevant every year.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.178.26.167 (talk) 15:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I find it ironic that you conclude with 'Wikipedia- more biased, more irrelevant..." when you mostly wanted more biased and irrelevant things added to the article. If you have citations/ sources supporting your claims, put them here or in the article. I can't find anything on the web with your quotes about raping white girls, for example. If you know of background (etc) that can be shown to be relevant, we'll add it. This is not a page of the history of all (real or undocumented) Lebanese or Muslim interactions in Australia- it's just about the riots. 
I:If you can be specific about the sections that are biased towards/ against specific races, though, I'll happily change them for you.WotherspoonSmith (talk) 14:16, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:  Well i've just looked at it right now and this article is hogwash. It mentions westies whatever that means and makes only 1 reference to some muslim organisation giving a speech or whatever tripe. So why is a muslim organisation half way down the page if this was all about these mythological westiess' ? It was clearly a riot started by australians getting pissed off by the years of muslim aggression in the area.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.207.164 (talk) 22:24, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor quality of article 

message: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/signals-of-jihad-in-australia-have-been-building-for-years-20140924-10lhon.html
If this is a valid source, it explains and justifies the riots.
The events also followed the,
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes
This is the context for the violence. No wonder the crowd was so angry.
Harassment of women is completely unacceptable. It explains the violence.
What I understand is that Muslim men had been harassing western women, almost irrespective of what they wore for years, calling them sluts and whores.
I am sorry. In my brief search, I have not been able to find good references for this in Australia, although I have read and heard this is what led to the riots.
Overseas, there are clear references to unrelenting harassment of non-Muslim women, along with rape "on an Industrial scale".
Other related incidents
* http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-would-not-have-met-numan-haider-had-officers-known-of-facebook-posts-20160315-gnjju4.html
The article, as written, seems narrow. It does not describe the actions that led up to the Cronula riots.
Thepigdog (talk) 13:10, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: , I tend to disagree. See 2005 Cronulla riots#Background "There is also a history of conflict between Cronulla locals and those visiting from the Western suburbs ("Westies") with "bashings" common since the 1960s as part of a turf war between Westies and local surfies."  It could be more detailed. As you said, lot of stories are told about 'anglos' esp. women being harassed, but are not reliably verifiable.Nb. I lived in Cronulla very near where this occurred, for 16 years before the riot, and 10 after. I saw some of the rioting, and especially observed the aftermath where literally hundreds of cars were smashed up on Elouera Road in the revenge attacks. That doesn't seem to have got much media coverage. I don't think the police Strike Force Neil after riot reports eg even mentions it, IIRC. 220 of Borg 05:13, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: You're clearly clueless or have an agenda. I'm betting on the second. This westies nonsense is shitty as coverups go. Try harder. It was muslims acting a fool for years and they got swiped.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.207.164 (talk) 22:27, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

text: My girlfriend lives in the Shire, is Asian and reckons she's never experienced racism from any of the locals there, in all the years she's lived there, either before and after the riots (and she interacted with MANY). It's also very well known that non-local gangs were regularly harassing women, to the point where many would avoid the beach and certainly avoid it without protective escorts. I think it's very racist against the local that the riots have been painted as primarily about race, rather than about the behaviour of a particularly group people, who regularly attended and happened to be of a particular race. 14.200.91.233 (talk) 12:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: The origin of the riots

message: I've removed the text:
:Events prior to the riots such as the Sydney rape gangs, executed by Lebanese-Australians, created a withstanding infamous reputation for the Lebanese community. And thus carved the potential for racism and rejection from the greater Australian community. The disorderly behavior of some in the Lebanese community particularly the rape gangs, was still ripe in the minds of people. As Michael Mohammed Ahmad states the concept of the infamous 'Leb', was still around by 2005. And by the time of the Cronulla Riots, the community had hit its flash-point against the 'Leb'; it had reached its 'violent zenith'.Wood, Patrick (10 March 2018). "Rapes, riots and 9/11: How three events shaped one man's life". ABC.
:One of the most notorious and widely reported offences by Lebanese-Australian individuals. The Sydney rape gangs were a series of racially motivated gang rapes instigated by Lebanese-Australian youths which occurred prior to the Cronulla Riots, between August and September of 2000. Centered around the South-West region of Sydney, one incident occurred in the suburb of Bankstown, 18 km away from Cronulla. Involving a group of 14 Lebanese-Australians, with the specific intent of targeting and raping Anglo-Celtic, white Australian women and teenage girls. In one case a female victim was as young as 14. Described by officials and commentators alike as being a series of explicitly racially motivated attacks against white Australians.Bowden, Tracy (15 July 2002). "Ethnicity linked to brutal gang rapes". ABC.Devine, Miranda (13 July 2002). "Racist rapes: Finally the truth comes out". Sydney Morning Herald. https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/13/1026185124700.htmlGoodenough, Patrick (16 July 2002). "Gang Rape Convictions Trigger Ethnicity Debate". CNSnews.com. Evidence pertaining to racial motivation were asserted by the Lebanese-Australian youths during the gang rapes, whereby they divulged several racial slurs aimed at white Australians. Including: "You deserve it because you're an Australian", "I'm going to fuck you Leb-style" and "Aussie pigs" during their assaults.Devine, Miranda (13 July 2002). "Racist rapes: Finally the truth comes out". Sydney Morning Herald. https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/13/1026185124700.html  Alongside the racial motivation for the rapes, also came an apparent religious motivation specifically aimed at Christian and/or Catholic peoples. As evident by text messages left by the rapists such as, "When you are feeling down... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up".Sutton, Candace; Duff, Eamonn (8 September 2002). "Rapist's loving family: Where did we fail our son?". Sydney Morning Herald. The aggravated racial and religious motivations behind the rapes were of such considerable extent, that Judge Michael Finnane presiding over the incidents, described the rapes as events that "you hear about or read about only in the context of wartime atrocities".Crichton, Sarah; Stevenson, Andrew (17 September 2002). "When race and rape collide". The Age.
I think that there might be something in it - the Sydney gang rapes were a possible influence on the riots, and we may have sources that connect the two. My problem is that they haven't been presented yet. The nearest is the Patrick Wood article but the connection it draws is the concept of lebs, rather than saying that the Cronulla riots were more directly connected to the 2000 gang rapes. Do we have any sources available which will connect the two more directly? - Bilby (talk) 11:11, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  2002 gang rapes