Talk:Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya

message: I'd like to see the propaganda angle explored a bit more, without any attempt to degrade Zoya.  e.g. there doesn't seem to be any reason to accuse her of the crime of arson, but there also doesn't seem to be any reason to include a picture that is at best ghastly propaganda.  Please check the dates of the execution and the photo, and the story of the first article.  To me this just doesn't add up.  Maybe we could get a pix of the statue at the Moscow Metro station Partisanskaya? Smallbones 02:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Getting such pics of statues won't be difficult. Also, the Gorinov's article in the scholarly magazine I linked above studies in great detail all the angles, including the propaganda one. --Irpen 02:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Let's not put it back 

message: Googling around, it's easy to see that classification of Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya's acts as sabotage is unequivocal, and done by both Pravda and neo-Nazis.  If so diverse sources agree, it should be obvious that classifying her as a saboteur is WP:NPOV.  (Not to mention that the military unit she served in was a designated recon/sabotage group.)
Irpen, do you have any rational reasons to remove this classification?  Emotional attachment does not qualify as such a reason under Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Digwuren 19:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: There is a reason why Sabotage is classified in the :category:Crime as well as an Arson. If she is a criminal, the cat would have applied. This has been already discussed. --Irpen 19:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oh good idea. I will start adding Soldier, Deminer, Spy, Fighter pilot, Sniper and others to Category:Crime aswell. As it seems to be the consensus that military personnel are criminals. Suva 22:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I guess Irpen considers the people who committed the Norwegian heavy water sabotage during WW2 were criminals too, and the SOE, who organised many of these kinds of sabotage acts behind Nazi lines, was a terrorist organisation also. Martintg 10:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

text: Sabotage in war says very clearly that "In war, the word is used to describe the activity of an individual or group not associated with the military of the parties at war (such as a foreign agent or an indigenous supporter)". I guess, that strikes political aspect of discussed matter off the table and leaves us with pretty technical question of classification. Was the Zoya's unit "not associated with the military"? If my memory serves me weel, hers was paramilitary unit, officially called "partizan unit 9903 of Western Front Staff" (see Russian wiki). Usage of numeric designation leads me to believe that it was at least "associated with the military". Therefore, Zoya can't be considered Saboteur. What you guys think? RJ CG 14:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Your attempt to infer exclusivity from that passage is in error. Digwuren 15:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Calling statement "an error" requires some proof. Yes, I understand, that you are amused by this suggestion. RJ CG 16:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sabotage 

message: As seen above, there's a disagreement over whether it's factual to classify Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya as an arsonist, under :Category:Arsonists.  On one hand, there are sources explaining her experience in fireraising, and several that appear to state that the Nazis caught her while trying to set fire to a building (whose purpose is unclear, but which might have been either a stable or a storage building); on another, there are positions likening this categorisation to blasphemy.  In order to sort out this mess, I'll request an RFC. Digwuren 18:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is a misrepresentation of the parties' positions but the discussion above is there to read. --Irpen 18:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, let's see you trying to represent what's going on above. Digwuren 19:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  RFC 

message: I will - as I edit the page for grammar, style and usage as I have been doing for other USSR/Baltic States articles - leave this word in, but in English usage this word belongs more with religious sacrificial victims than with political activists. I can think of other words to use (heroes, resistance fighters, partisans etc) which are more neutral but I don't want to offend sensibilities in the cause of non-emotive language or incorrect terminology. The word "martyr" does not fit with Ms Kosmodemyanskaya's biography because it is evident she was not the victim of religious persecution. If anyone can suggest a different word please leave a message on my talk page. Lstanley1979 (talk) 19:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Truth is the first casualty" in war, and I think in the Soviet Union (especially during the war) truth was a lot less common than copies of Pravda.  I don't know how to sort this out, but it's clear to me that there is a lot of propaganda here being presented as fact.  The main problem: sabotage on Nov. 25, 1941, hanging on Nov. 27, 1st article on January 27, 1942 with story pushed by Stalin, Hero of the Soviet Union by Feb. 16.  How can things like what info she gave up under torture ever be known?  I'll suggest keeping it clear what source said what - since most of the sources are in Russian, most of us can't know for sure even this.. Some skepticism, without blasphemy, would be appreciated.  Smallbones (talk) 02:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "How can things like what info she gave up under torture ever be known?" It sometimes helps to educate oneself in subject before chiming in with noble indignation against vile Soviet propaganda. Soviets delivered major blow to the Nazi between Nov. 25, 1941 and Jan. 27, 1942 and re-captured Petrishchevo, so Soviet investigators had been able to question locals and German POWs. RJ CG (talk) 16:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

text: the word "martyr" is absolutely appropriate for the heroism and self-sacrifice of this noble person. She has done far more than many who have been made saints. Why bring down such a worthy person, just because we cannot match her greatness? Wallie (talk) 10:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Martyr 

message: The inscription of the statue of her in the Partizanskaya Metro Station in Moscow spells her surname KOSMODEMYANSKOI, not -SKAYA. I know Skaya is the feminine form, but why is it not used here? Presumably the Soviet authorities who erected the statue knew what her name was. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 16:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The name is written here in Dative case: "посвящается ... Зое Космодемьянской" ("devoted to ... Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya"). See picture http://wiki.nashtransport.ru/images/4/4a/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_8.jpg. — Ace111 (talk) 12:54, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spelling of surname 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page 

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thread_title:  Blacklisted Links Found on [[Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya]] 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is no reference to the obvious fact that this girl was used as a propaganda tool by the Soviet regime. She may not have done anything she was alleged to have done, or even existed for that matter. The Soviets were very creative with their propaganda. The alleged quotes were obviously created by Stalin's propagandists, and should not be taken as reliable any more than we can rely on Shakespeare to have accurately quoted MacBeth etc.Royalcourtier (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fame? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Earlier this year I added a "one source" tag to the article's "controversy" section and it seems that half a year later the problem still hasn't been addressed yet. The section is more or less a summary of a web page titled Legends of the Great Patriotic War: Zoya Kosomodemyanskaya, from an unknown source. The page mentioned several articles published in the 90s. None of them seemed to be from prominent authors and there is no third party sources on the articles' importance. Much more than that would be needed to justify a "controversy" section that makes up 1/3 of the entire article, and even if the information listed is actually relevant enough, the section should not be based on a single web page. Until I can find more sources I am going to reorganize the section and reduce the 1990s controversy part to one or two paragraphs long. Esiymbro (talk) 14:54, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Content based on ''Legends of the Great Patriotic War'' article 

message: Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya is a common terrorist mastering acts of terror against own people on pretense of "sabotage against armies of Nazi Germany". Not a single Nazi German combatant suffered following her acts of so called sabotage. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya is a convenient example of female hero in the Soviet pantheon of the Great Patriotic War mythology to appeal to female population of the Soviet Union, while most of the "pantheon" is dominated by male population. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:49, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

text: Out of common propaganda reason, a monument of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya who was born near Tambov and perished near Moscow was erected in Kyiv. Russian heroine was forcefully imposed into the Ukrainian history as part of Russification process to erase out of memory other people important to Ukraine. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:26, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

text: Victims of the Kosmodemyanskaya's sabotage later were executed by the Soviet authorities for collaboration instead of receiving any compensation. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

text: The article talks about some "German" horses. What is that all about? Were they speaking German? Were they really brought right from Germany and maybe had a German passport? What does it mean "German" horses? Why not simply state "Fascist" horses to end any ambiguity. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:51, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya is a terrorist