Talk:Red flag (politics)

message: What anthem? --212.247.27.34 (talk) 01:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Anthem 

message: As is suggested below in the air force training exercise section, there are other uses and meanings for the Red Flag besides the universal socialist banner.
However, I don't think references to them belong here, and certainly not in the first line of the article. I think we should move them to the disambiguation page, and if they are large enough to span an article, write so.
An alternative can be creating a section labelled "Other uses of the Red Flag".
--Gatonegro 12:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry I do not know yet how to correctly edit wikipedia but I would like to point out a fact that could perhaps be included in the article. As recently as 1931, a California statute defined display of a red flag as a statement of "opposition to organized government". see: Stromberg v. California As an official legal interpretation of the red flag this should be noted, although it would clearly contradict those eager to maintain the red flag as exclusively a symbol for the brute force correctly associated with Stalinism etc. --thenoticer 15:48, 25 March 2006 
Does the red flag belong to Po (teletubby)? Crazy 29 12:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other uses for the Red Flag 

message: Hi all!  I was surprised when I came across this article to find that there was no reference to Gaius Marius and the ancient Roman slave revolts.
When I was involved in leftist politics, the story that I had been taught was that the Red Flag became associated with socialism during the Paris commune as this article states.  But before that, it had a long history of symbolizing the blood of the oppressed, martyrs or others at the bottom of the social period, that dates all the way back to the Roman Empire.  
The relevant section of Gaius' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Marius) wikipedia page is the section labelled "Social War".  The events this wikipedia page refers to, is when Giaus Marius raised an army of slaves, gladiators, and peasants with the intent of overthrowing the 'dictator' Sulla and restoring Rome to the people.  The story as I was taught it, is that the slaves took white sheets, and drenched them in blood to create the red flag, and symbolize the others that had fallen.  While Sulla was fighting a distant war, they overthrew Rome, and killed many at the top of the political ladder that were supporters of Sulla in an attempt to form a new political order in the nation's capital.  Ultimately, they were beaten in battle by Sulla when he returned.
This is supposedly why the Paris commune chose the red flag at all.  Just like the slaves of Gaius Marius, the members of the Paris commune were attempting to capitalize on their nation's involvement in a foreign war.  They did so by organizing the underclass into an army, overthrowing the political leadership in their nation's capital, executing the nation's 'corrupt' leadership, and attempting to instate a new political order.  They were ultimately defeated when the more traditional french forces arrived back in Paris.  That is to say, it is an extremely similar series of events.  
The similarity of these events, in turn, is part of why the red flag is looked upon so metaphorically and positively in the socialist community, as it paints a poetic narrative of an underclass that, for thousands of years, whether in Ancient Rome or Paris, has continuously raised the red flag and attempted to take back their nations from the aristocracy throughout history.
I am new to wikipedia, I don't even have an account, but I have found some sources via quick google searching.  The book Common Cause google book link here: (https://books.google.com/books?id=Q_E-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=red+flag+ancient+rome+slaves&source=bl&ots=5qAe2N6tD5&sig=ACfU3U2XhMB5c7at5nIGjIvRN4Zzyb-SSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuoLrq0I7qAhWlhXIEHVAuCM0Q6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=red%20flag%20ancient%20rome%20slavesplebian%20slaves&f=false) is a book from 1912, where the author is discussing how the red flag was flown during the American Revolutionary War (is this also worth putting in the article?  I think this would shock most American readers).  In the first paragraph on page 103, the author states that he thinks "Old Glory" (the new American Flag) should be the only flag flown in the newly formed United States, because it is untainted by the bloodshed of Gaius Marius' slave rebellion, and the long socialist history of the flag.  https://revcom.us/a/045/story-red-flag.html also pops up in google with the same story.
Perhaps we need someone well schooled on ancient Rome to source this claim one way or another?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.220.214 (talk) 20:08, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Flag and Ancient Rome 

message: I know this is the wrong section but I am new to wikipedia editing so apologies. My query is why is there no mention of its first use stated as in 1831??? Was not the first time the red flag flown anywhere was in 1831 on Hirwaun Common during the Merthyr rising. Its a very overlooked historical event everywhere but Wales unfortunately.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.91.100 (talk) 02:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: thumb|100pxThe fist with a rose symbol was adopted by the French Socialist Party in Septembre 1971 from what I gather. (Although it was indeed designed in 1969.) However the rose on its own seems to be a more common symbol among other European socialist parties (Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland) and could rightly be attributed to the Labour. — François 21:44, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: The fist and rose was (to my recollection) has been broadly used in Europe, both for socialist organisations such as IUSY and also a number of individual socialist parties including those emerging from fascism in Spain and Portugal. I'd have thought that the British Labour Party's adoption of the rose was inspired by these european precedents. I first came across the logo/image in the late '70s. Is the inspiration of the red rose based on Labour's adoption in '86, or the earlier fist and rose? Which party/organisation started the fist and rose? --DaveLevy (talk) 16:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Flag and the British Labour Party 

message: Red Flag is also an air force training exercise supposedly and apparently simulating each air force member's first ten "missions" or days of war. These first ten are by far the riskiest in anyone's term of war, whether they joined the war at the start or the end. Someone is practically invincible after these first ten days or "missions". While obviously no training can or should perfectly simulate this experience, Red Flag's realism brings it close to the real first ten days or "missions" and is even more difficult and intense than reality. (Difficult and intense in terms of skill, of course. In real combat, one still has to deal with the danger and loss of life.) "Death" replaces death, training failure replaces mission failure, and preparation ensures victory.FET 00:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have referances to confirm what you say, prehaps you would like to start a page on this alternative use at Red Flag (Air force training exercise) or something similar. When you have constructed it you could add this line to the top of this Red flag page "Red flag is also an air force training exercise see Red Flag (Air force training exercise)"--JK the unwise 10:28, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Flag air force training exercise 

message: This socialist website link mentions the 'Significance of the Red Flag'. Is it useful info to go in the article or as a link? PJB 21:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It mentions early origins/useages PJB 22:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  More info 

message: The Paris Commune article says of Lenin:
At his funeral, his body was wrapped in the remains of a red and white flag preserved from the Commune.
But the Red flag article says this:
The red flag subsequently became the banner of the Paris Commune in 1871, at which time it became firmly associated with socialism.
Who is correct?  Was the flag of the Paris Commune entirely red?  Or was it red and white?
(I posted this question at Talk:Paris Commune but no one volunteered an answer.) — Lawrence King (talk) 05:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Did the Paris Commune really use the red flag? 

message: The photo of Jean Jaurès (or any photo of a historical event) needs a date. --Isaac R 19:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dates? 

message: What is the origin of the modern methaporical usage of "raising a red flag"? e.g. here, or here or here or here or here or here. The article mentions "In pre-civil war Russia the Red flag was used as a symbol of warning...". Did modern Americans (especially when it comes to résumés and tax returns) really inherit this usage from the Russians? Ewlyahoocom 19:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The earliest citation of "red flag" is dated 1777, so I find all the explainations given in the article dubious. The original usage obviously didn't have anything to do with Russia, communism, Jacobins, or bullfighting.Kauffner (talk) 18:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The red flag makes an appearance in Robinson Crusoe (1719) as a pirate flag.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.216.21 (talk) 00:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The red flag is an old (16th-17th century) naval flag that signifies 'no quarter given', in other words 'take no prisoners'. As such, it is perhaps the most inflammatory of flags as, when raised, it means that any battle will be to the death. Hence it's use by pirates. This caused consternation during the Surrender of the German Fleet at Scapa Flow, as many of the German crews had embraced Communism and were flying red flags from their ships, until the above fact was pointed out to them. Legally, the British ships accepting the surrender could have opened fire on those flying red flags without any further provocation.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.252.186 (talk) 08:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Metaphorical usage: "send up a red flag", "raise a red flag", etc. 

message: I very much doubt that the words to the manchester united version of the Red Flag are accurate, primarily because it does not scan - that being the prime concern of football chants.
Any editions?  Tomkeene 16:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Manchester United

message: I think this article needs to have a lot less about piracy. In the early modern period, the red flag was a flag of defiance used by both pirates and non-pirates. People at the time didn't link it to piracy, as the quote I put in from Chambers Cyclopedia shows. We shouldn't get carried away with the Hollywood notion of pirates as a people with a separate culture and traditions. The use of the red flag by Communists and other socialists is derived from its use by the Jacobins during the French Revolution -- there is no allusion to piracy. Kauffner (talk) 04:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In 18th century France the Bucaneers were well known -- there were plays about them and a few popular books. The general public knew that the red flag was a flag of the Bucaneers, and they knew its meaning -- that "no quarter" would be granted to prisoners. This is why people were so outraged by its use at the Champs de Mars -- and probably why the Jacobins adopted it afterwards. After the prison massacres, the Paris Jacobins sent communiques to their affiliates across the country encouraging them to follow the example by "granting no quarter" to the enemies of the revolution. I'd add this information to the article, but one of the many activists would just delete it. No matter how interesting and pertinent it is -- it's just unacceptable to many people.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.228.171 (talk) 10:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Piracy

message: I have added in a section for motorsport, as the flag one of the official flags in use, which has been used across many forms of motorsport, and has a significant meaning to the race.Harvyk (talk) 09:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The actual citations are quotes in the footnotes. The 1602 citation is the sense of defiance in battle, i.e. the political usage. The 1777 citation is a red flag warning of flood. Kauffner (talk) 02:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Motorsport 

message: I included one typical Russian joke about the Red flag, but did not include the second. Here it is:
:"Vasily Ivanovich, I did not know that our Anka did not sleep with anyone yet" -- "Petka, why do you think so?" -- "I looked at our sheets in the morning and saw that it was red". -- Vasily Ivanovich: "What a whore! How many times I told her: Do not fuck on our Red Banner!". Biophys (talk) 06:21, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This is stupid and does not belong in the article. Why don't we then insert silly jokes in every article, as we can find plenty for every topic? -YMB29 (talk) 15:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Humor is just as serious matter in wikipedia  as pokemon and list of porn stars. This would be not stupid if there were citations from scholarly sources which talk about impact of red flag on Russian folklore. However in this case just citing a couple jokes is clear original research, especially with a commentary that it is "subject of numerous jokes". This is precisely why we don't insert jokes everywhere... but only where they are verifiably notable, e.g., in "Blonde stereotype". - Altenmann >t 16:14, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

text: You just gave a source for that joke, but did not prove that it had a cultural impact. -YMB29 (talk) 23:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This entire book is about Soviet culture and the jokes were used as an illustration.Biophys (talk) 23:06, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: And why do you think any joke from Soviet times needs to be mentioned here? You were asked to prove that it had a real cultural impact. -YMB29 (talk) 23:08, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Because chapter "Red flag in Soviet popular culture" clearly belongs to this article, and it is perfectly sourced. If you know any other sources on the subject that tell something different, please use them to expand this part and make it more neutral.Biophys (talk) 23:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Again it is not sourced for cultural impact. -YMB29 (talk) 23:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Two well-sourced jokes that mention the red flag but I'm unclear what their inclusion is supposed to illustrate. The first one in particular seems to be more about attitudes to Brezhnev and the flag itself isn't central. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:02, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: They illustrate Biophys' attitude towards the red flag and the USSR more than anything else. :::::Is profanity even allowed here? I mean it makes the whole article look like a joke... -YMB29 (talk) 00:58, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Actually, to Russian political jokes. - Altenmann >t 02:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If there is something about red flag in African or Finnish folklore, this can be added here. I do not see any problem.Biophys (talk) 22:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

text: It was published in a book by well known Russian philologist who described this as notable. What exactly proof of notability do you need?Biophys (talk) 04:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Where does he say that it is notable? -YMB29 (talk) 22:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

text: RE to Mutt Lunker. OK, I checked what exactly the source tells. This is all described in relation to Article 190-3 of Soviet criminal code adopted in 1967 that prohibits defamation of Coat of arms of the Soviet Union and Red banner. It was adopted to prevent spreading the popular jokes according to author (190-1 - imprisonment for anti-Soviet agitation, 190-2 - for participating in unauthorized meetings). Hence the notability. Another popular story: 
A foreigner drives to the USSR on his own car, but the car soon breaks down after falling into a huge hole in the middle of the road. The foreigner is outraged: "How come, you did not place a fence around, or even a warning sign, something red to be seen from the far?" -- Response: "Did not you see the huge Red flag when you crossed our border?". 
And of course, "ty ne boisja p'janitsa nosa svoego, on ved' s nashim znamenem tsveta odnogo" (a parody to an official propaganda poetry for children: "Drunk men, do not be ashamed of your nose: it has the same color as our Flag"). No OR; this all per the book.Biophys (talk) 20:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

text: Laws against defamation of regalia, flags, coat of arms, anthems etc is common in many countries not just Russia or Soviet Union. Move your jokes to Russian political jokes where they belong. (Igny (talk) 21:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: The chapter of the book has a title: "Hammer and sickle. Red Banner" (pages 501-505). So, the chapter is not about jokes. It is about Soviet Red Flag and how it was perceived in Russian/Soviet culture.Biophys (talk) 02:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: In Russian popular culture

message: Should not whatever decision made here regarding the jokes apply to the Red Banner article also? -YMB29 (talk) 20:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Red Banner article

message: I was surprised to see no mention of Red Flag Linux under section Communist/socialist Red Flag as name or title.  Hey, a car, fine, but for anyone thinking of the red flag as old-fashioned, having a Linux distribution says "still used for names."
Shenme (talk) 22:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Red Flag as name or title 

message: A gallery of flags "based on the red flag" was added on 8 January 2014 (see page history). I am not entirely convinced that it is a good idea. Red is the most common colour on all flags in general, and trying to distinguish which flags were "based on the red flag" and which ones have a red field for other reasons (including related reasons) seems like it would lead us straight into OR. As long as the gallery contained only obvious communist flags, no one objected (including myself), because those are clearly derived from the original Red Flag. But if we're going to start including non-communist flags, there are so many difficult and controversial cases that it may be better to remove the gallery altogether. Consider, for example, the two Flags of Burma from 1948 to 2010. They featured a prominent red field, and the country declared itself to be socialist for a part of the period when those flags were used. But on the other hand the Red Ensign used by the former British colonial authorities also featured a red field, and Burma did not consider itself socialist when it first adopted a flag with a prominent red field. So... were those two flags of Burma based on the Red Flag, or not? I highly doubt there is any kind of scholarly consensus on this matter, since, typically, every flag is based on a variety of influences and takes inspiration from several other flags.
Therefore, in my opinion, the gallery should be either limited to obvious communist flags, where no controversy exists, or removed altogether. -- Amerul (talk) 16:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gallery? 

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