Talk:Bill Finger

message: I'm detecting a problem with the wording of this article, and I'm not sure how serious it is.  Credited at the bottom is the Gerard Jones book as a reference, but the actual wording of the text is a very close parallel (I hesitate to say "verbatim plagiarism", but that is the idea influencing me as I type this) to an article written by Bulent Yusuf on the Ninth Art website (http://www.ninthart.com).  The article itself is here, http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=1113 and begins about halfway down the page.  Although the text is not a verbatim duplicate, the phrasing, order of ideas, and even objects presented as examples or lists are almost too similar to be coincidence.
Here are a few key passages:
*In the comic book industry, being "Fingered" is slang for being denied credit for one's contributions to a story or character.
*In 1939, the popularity of Superman in Action Comics led the comic book division of National Publications (later DC comics) to seek and develop more superheroes for publication. Artist Bob Kane created a character named "Birdman", and showed sketches of his designs to Bill Finger, a writer with whom he was a regular collaborator. Finger suggested renaming the character "Batman", replacing the domino mask and wings with a cape and cowl, giving him gloves, and removing sections of the original costume that were bright red. Finger then wrote the first BATMAN story, whilst Kane provided the art. However, because Kane had already submitted a proposal for a Batman character to DC, he was the only person given official credit for its creation.
*Finger wrote most of the early stories and, amongst other things, created Bruce Wayne, Robin, the Batcave, the Batmobile, and Gotham City. In addition, these stories were distinctive for their use of giant-size props like giant pennies, typewriters or sewing machines.
Unless Bulent Yusuf wrote the Wikipedia article, this looks a little too much like his source material.  I have not read the Jones book, so I cannot argue whether or not Yusuf "borrowed" from it to write his Ninth Art article, but considering that Yusuf is a professional writer and Ninth Art's position on intellectual property rights, I would seriously doubt it.
I think this article needs to be extensively rewritten, including additional sources and proper credit for all reference materials. Canonblack 14:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: I added some stuff to the second paragraph (in addition to rewording what appeared to be plagarism) about how there's still a controversey over whether or not Kane came up with the idea for the name "Batman" (which he may have, especially considering his horror movie influence) as well as details about the costume.  I'm not saying Finger didn't do what they say he did, but there's still a question.
The article left out any details of other important Finger-characters: The Green Lantern and Lori Lemaris.  I elaborated on them.
Epiphone83 00:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name Controversey 

message: Personally, I have failed to understand why journey-man (or freelance) artists or writers who work in the comic book industry ( or who have in the past) feel they are entitled to special treatment not afforded to their peers who work in other industries. Bill Finger, who did not start off as a professional writer but was almost "drafted" by Bob Kane, never really complained about owning any part of Batman, but was distressed over not getting a byline for his writing, which he felt he deserved. (Although, Bob Kane claimed in his auto-bio that Finger never asked him for one.)If Finger had chosen to be a true professional writer, he would have learned that in comics, very few writers received a byline and the same was true for several artists, inkers, letterers,etc. He probably learned this eventually, but many of his supporters seem to suffer from "selective amnesia" whenever they discuss him and his relationship with Bob Kane.
In other fields, "ghost writers" or "artists" accept the fact they may not receive a byline and sometimes are even "stiffed" on payment! They look at these incidents as "paying one's dues" on their way to fulfilling their respective careers goals. In terms of ownership for their contributions along the way, again, they understand that if they are working for a "company" or "studio" that is not their own, ownership of "their" creations is out of the question and royalties, a pipe dream, although they could negotiate for such, if desired.
The artists who worked or created characters for the Walt Disney or Warner Bros. animation studios knew they did not own any of these characters. That's why, instead of complaining about this fact, they fought for things like fair wages, pensions and medical benefits. Those who work for comic book companies should do likewise.
Bob Kane and William Marston (the creator of Wonder Woman) were shrewd enough to set up their own studios which negotiated with the publisher (in their case, DC COMICS) concerning part ownership of their creations. This is the standard relationship in Europe and Japan. If someone doesn't want to follow their lead, this is fine, but critics of these men (and others)shouldn't engage in smear tactics in the name of "justice" for any of their respective employees.
-The Batmaniac-
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.236.252.234 (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No one disagrees that it was fair to not include the credit back in the 1930s. It was only procedure. However, seeing as how the franchise escalated from a simple recurring character on DC Comics to an iconic world-famous symbol within a decade or two, it's only proper justice that Finger's efforts be noted. After all, if left to Kane, he would have created "Bird-Man". Had Kane gone along by himself, he would have been nowhere. Finger laid the foundations and he should be credited. We should try not to be POV, yes but then this is a factual and logical conclusion. Zuracech lordum 23:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your righteous anger, and don't disagree that by modern standards he should have been credited. But conclusions are disallowed under Wiki guidelines. For the sake of argument, for instance, a DC attorney might state that there was a long history of uncredited ghost writers long before Kane and Batman, which would be an equally factual and logical conclusion. We can't conclude -- all we can do is state the confirmable, verifiable facts. --Tenebrae 02:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well said. Doczilla 04:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: True. If we don't do that, then wikipedia will never be accepted with the rest of the world. Doesn't make me any more happier about the injustice. I'm considering rewriting this article as it does seem to be plagiarised and POV. Any suggestions or is it good enough already? Zuracech lordum 04:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Doc, and hi, Zuracech. Well, if there's plagiarism, then it's simple: We need to put a copyvio (copyright violation) template on it, with the URL of the page from it was ostensibly copied. Otherwise, I'm really not sure that a total rewrite is needed to eliminate any POV; the language overall seems neutral and there seem to be a lot of footnotes from such sources as the Bob Kane book and the Steranko History of Comics, as well as references include the Gerard Jones book. This suggests to me the article might need judicious editing and cite-requests, as opposed to complete overhaul. --Tenebrae 02:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it doesn't seem like plagiarism. It might be that the writer from the website may have used the same books to obtain his material from. It seems to follow a NPOV. Editing and cite-requests are enough. I don't think it warrants a copyvio template. Zuracech lordum 06:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Credit, Ownership and Freelancing in Comicville 

message: I'm giving it a shot at cleaning up.  I don't like what I did with the 'sections', but I tried to streamline the parenthetical comments to a degree. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 14:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Cleanup

message: Here is all the info I dug up concerning the citations requested. Every time I try to add the source, some other info is dropped. I think this page (and Kane's) is done. I'll meet ya at the Captain Marvel site. Need I mention that the BIG RED CHEESE is my second favorite character? 
1. Gardner Fox "Bat-" arsenal attribution: "...Complete History", Daniels p.31
:"                             : "Batman and Me," Kane/Andrae   p.103
2. NATIONAL (DC Comics) no byline policy: "Showcase Presents:Batman vol. 2 Credit page\intro
:"Until the 1970s, it was not common practice in the comic industry to credit all stories."
:(Personal note: this was true but Marvel gave out bylines,although they were often mis-leading. Charlton allowed artists to sign their name and in the late 60s, DC did the same. However, I think it was Jack Kirby who said the main rationale for comic book companies' refusal of giving out bylines is because they didn't want to reveal their talent pool to their competition and even forbade "moonlighting".)
3. Finger's use of "giant props":     "Batman and Me," Kane/Andrae   p.119-120
:"                    :     "Steranko's History..."        p. 49
4. Finger names "Gotham City":        "Steranko's History..."        p. 45
I'm BA-AAck! I think this page could use a tad more space. Everytime I try to add the citations, the page deletes some other information. I think this is as close to perfect as we can get but since the partisanship is so (unnessarily) strong, I don't think it will ever earn an A! What do you think Batman fans? I would love it if we could be as sensible as the Captain Marvel group. The Real One, that is. DOH!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:The Batmaniac (talk • contribs) 17:36, August 27, 2007 (UTC) 
::Hi, Bats. I've added three of the four requested citations. One of them doesn't really answer the comment in the article that National adopted a no-byline policy in the 1940s. The sentence you were diligent and industrious enough to research reads "Until the 1970s, it was not common practice in the comic industry to credit all stories." That sentence is talking about common industry practice, not a formal policy. It also doesn't say anything about such a policy, if it existed, starting up in the mid-1940s.
::But a cite may turn up. We'll both look. Good Wiki'ing, B. --Tenebrae 23:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citations R Us

message: I've moved the quotes section to WikiQuote, the project which is geared up to contain lists of quotes.  As to the claim that the quotes listed within the separate section are presented without bias, either we present all sourced quotes regarding Finger, and then we are presenting without bias but are also in breach of WP:NOT, or we present none, and then we are both in accordance with WP:NOT and without bias.  Presenting a select few is presenting with bias. Hiding T  20:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Quotes 

message: This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject.  If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class.  The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject.  Comics-awb (talk) 15:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

message: Did he do anything else than comics? Did he marry? How did he die? Did he get any credit while he was alive, or monetary compensation? Did he have family, and do they royalties?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.184.84.18 (talk) 10:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Finger had one son, Fred, who died in 1992. Fred had a daughter, Athena, who now receives the reprint royalties for DC stories written by Finger. This is only recently; for a long time it was assumed there was no living descendant and the royalties were going to Fred's last partner's later partner . Timrollpickering (talk) 15:47, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bill Finger's life 

message: An "In Memoriam" page in Famous First Edition published by DC in 1975 gave Finger's date of birth as February 8, 1914.   A reproduction of this page can be seen here at the "Dial B For Blog" site. I'm still hoping to find some other sources for Finger's date of death.
Mtminchi08 (talk) 04:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  date of birth verification 

message: I'm the author of the only bio of Finger and I can't quote myself, but hope someone would be willing to add this quotation from Jerry Robinson to the first paragraph:
Jerry Robinson said, “[Bill] had more to do with the molding of Batman than Bob. He just did so many things at the beginning,…creating almost all the other characters,…the whole persona, the whole temper.”
It is from page 43 of BILL THE BOY WONDER (already cited in article). I feel it is the most compelling and authoritative statement explaining how significant Bill's role was, and Jerry is certainly in a position to make such a statement as he was one of the ghost artists who began on the strip during its debut year. He worked closely with both men before National hired him and Finger away from Kane. There is considerable misconception about how involved Kane was in the creative aspects of the strip. He was not an idea man and in fact did not write a single Batman story in his lifetime.
Thank you for considering this.Mtn (talk) 04:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Jerry Robinson, who was there with Kane and an eyewitness, is certainly important to mention up top. I couldn't find a similar quote just now in the Couch book Jerry Robinson: Ambassador of Comics, so I'm sure other, disinterested editors would agree this quote from your book should go in. I'll add it now. --Tenebrae (talk)
Thank you so much. I appreciate your understanding and time. Mtn (talk) 05:08, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

text: So Bill's death date and Fred's death date both appear on page 34? --Tenebrae (talk) 05:28, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

text: In my book, Fred's death date is on page 46. Mtn (talk) 06:54, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggestion to add to first paragraph re: Finger's role vs. Kane's 

message: I strongly believe the 2nd paragraph is flawed and should be amended. As the author of a book on Finger, I'm unable to make such changes, so I put this forth to those who can.
1. Remove Roussos quotation
Of the scores if not hundreds of eyewitness quotations I've gathered about Bill Finger by his contemporaries, this Roussos one is not one that a historian who has read them all would put anywhere near the top in terms of reliability. In fact, the rest of this very entry contradicts that Bill merely "sort of organized" someone else's ideas. However well-intentioned, Roussos's assessment (which I read not as a thought-out statement For The Record but rather as a quick, casual aside that he would probably rephrase if given the chance) is markedly inconsistent with the descriptions of nearly every other major player including Kane's (even in most of these "sanctioned" statements: http://noblemania.blogspot.com/2012/02/bill-finger-named-co-creator-in-dc.html). As such, I feel it does not belong in the lead of the article about Bill Finger. To say that Kane "had [the] ideas" when he did not write a single Batman story in his lifetime and drew stories only in the earliest years, whereas Finger not only independently wrote 1,500 stories over 25 years but designed the costume, wrote the first appearances of Robin/Joker/Catwoman/many more, built the bat-motif, named "Gotham City" and "Bruce Wayne," nicknamed Batman "the Dark Knight," etc., is irresponsible. 
2. Remove Goulart quotation
Or at least replace. He is a generalist who wrote comics encyclopedias; there are other comics figures with more of a focus on Batman whom I would sooner quote (Carmine Infantino, Julie Schwartz, maybe Denny O'Neil, Michael Uslan, Mark Evanier, or Les Daniels), but given the positions of the other three already here (Kane, Robinson, Levitz), I don't think a fourth is necessary.
3. If Roussos and/or Goulart are kept, I would reorg so the order of the quotations is as follows (most to least authoritative in terms of proximity to Finger):
a) Kane - I'd also remove "contributing force" since it is redundant; the entry's opening line establishes this
b) Robinson - he was the 5th person (after Kane, Finger, Guardineer, and Moldoff) and one of the "original big three" to work on Batman; widely considered the fairest authority on the subject
c) Levitz - he was speaking as an employee of DC Comics which gives considerable weight to his statement - it appears to credit Finger and Kane equally; this in contrast to the phrasing most commonly seen ("created by Bob Kane with help from Bill Finger" or some variation thereof)
d) Goulart
e) Roussos
Thank you for your consideration. Mtn (talk) 06:51, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: As a disinterested party, I would have to say re: point 1 that Roussos was an eyewitness and his eyewitness account shouldn't be removed simply because it doesn't refer to FInger unequivocally as Batman's creator. It would be biased to remove it on that basis. As to point 2, I'm not sure what the objection is: Goulart is a well-respected comics historian, and as such is in a better position to offer an objective opinion that most. As to point 3: Kane's concession seems most authoritative, followed by an objective historian and comics-encyclopedia editor, followed by a contemporaneous eyewitness, followed by a latter-day official statement. I'd say the Levitz quote is redundant after all that, but I won't advocate to remove it. I'd also have to sugget that Jerry Robinson is probably right in his views, in my opinion, but he's clearly a Finger partisan who created an award in Finger's honor; that last point alone mitigates against his objectivity and being "the fairest authority on the subject"--Tenebrae (talk) 16:56, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removal of Roussos/suggestion for reorg of (current) 2nd paragraph 

message: Finger wrote both the initial script for Batman's debut in Detective Comics #27 (May 1939) and the character's second appearance, while Kane provided art.
This is a poorly constructed sentence. Where does "both" go? Did he not write "the initial script" for the character's second appearance? What does that even mean? But I can't fix it without checking the sources -- could someone check which information comes from which source (the sources are also formatted somewhat awkwardly -- one source that says "both X and Y" would be better, for instance) and fix it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:53, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weird sentence 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In my extensive Bill Finger research, I never saw that baseball cap photo dated (even the year, let alone the day); this includes DC publications "50 Who Made DC Great" and "Batman: The Complete History" (both of which reprint the photo undated). I checked the edit history of this page, but don't see when this was added or by whom. Can anyone else find that info so we can ask/cite where this date came from?
Writermtn (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Source for date (September 27, 1936) of photo of Finger in baseball cap?