Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive 3

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replying to if necessary.  (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.)
This archive covers the later portion of April 19, 2005, and the early hours of April 20.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive08. Thank you. Bratschetalk random 03:11, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
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Could someone clarify the 2010 thing with the Lutheran Church and priests marrying?  It reads like some far-fetched fantasy world prophesy right now 68.233.74.69 03:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

message: The Prophecy does NOT accurately predict every Pope; in order to make it fit, many antipopes were included in the line of succession and many popes have no analogy to their supposed mottos.
Could someone remove this gibberish about Malachy and stuff, this is not up to standard. I am very tempted to erase the whole stuff altogether, but I want just to say that i am in favour of deletion of this section. Hektor 03:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: In my opinion it's worth at least a mention, just as it was mentioned in the JPII article. Any further speculation on how Benedict XVI fits into the prophecy can go into the Prophecy of the Popes article. --Kvasir 05:29, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Prophecy of St. Malachy 

message: I'm mainly a WWII article writer and Ic ans ee there is a lot of interest in hwo the Pope grew up in Nazi Germany and that his father was a policeman during the time period in which german police were subordinate to the SS (1936 - 1945).  Lets set the record straight and start an article on the Pope's father (I dont even know his name but Im sure others do).  I think it is noteworthy enough for Wikipedia. -Husnock 03:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Pope's Dad 

message: This is a sensitive issue within the Catholic Church. Cardinal Ratzinger was not elected Pope of the "Roman" Catholic Church -- this designation refers to the Latin (or Western) Rite of the Catholic Church. There are a number of Eastern Rite Churches in communion with the Holy See. The proper phrasing is thus: "as pope, he is ... patriarch of the Roman Church, and supreme pontiff of the universal Catholic Church". But somebody keeps erasing my changes!
:Many other churches see themselves as the "Universal Catholic Church" - the Anglican Communion and the Eastern Orthodox, for instance. It is POV to use this title to refer to the Catholic Church, only. john k 03:43, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but only one titles itself the "Catholic" Church. If the others wanted to be called "THE Catholic Church", they should have titled themselves that. Anyway, "Roman" Catholic Church objectively refers to something that we don't mean to refer to -- that is, specifically and exclusively the Latin Rite of Catholicism. Look, everyone knows what the "Catholic Church" is, and it's not POV.
I don't mind calling it the "Catholic Church".  We certainly should not call it the "universal Catholic Church."  Among other things, this simply isn't true - it's not universal!  Among other things, it is repetive - "Catholic," strictly speaking, means "universal."  It's fine to call it the Catholic Church, because Catholic has mostly lost its old meaning of "universal" in favor of meaning "pertaining to the Catholic Church."  But that is not true of the word "universal," which ought to be avoided. john k 04:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Roman" Catholic Church 

message: Any source for this claim?
Who knows... who cares? How does it effect his papacy.
: There are many online discussions/speculation about his mother being Jewish. A Jewish mother would make Ratzinger a Jew by maternal lineage according to Jewish tradition. I have yet to see any reputable news source citing, or mention anything about his mother. Perhaps something the Church and biographers purposely left out? Who knows. This would be huge for anti-semites everywhere if this turns out that Ratzinger is Jewish. --Kvasir 05:22, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: If Ratzinger is, indeed, Jewish, then.... ooooh yeah, we're gonna see some attemps by Chabad Lubavitch to convert him back to Judaism.  — Rickyrab | Talk 05:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Is the Ratzinger family of Jewish origin?

message: Apparently Cantus is insisting on inserting his various AP and Reuters images ripped off from various websites, removing the copyvio tags from those images and then putting them back in the article.  Despite messages on the images and on his talk page he isn't discussing them so I encourage their continued removal.  They are clear copyright violations.  --Wgfinley 03:32, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Ive reported this person on vandalism in progress.  The user is also attacking legit images, changing the tags to say that they are the copyright violations.  Hopefully an admin will get involoved.  Ive left plenty of evidence on the vandal-in-progress page. -Husnock 04:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I apologize if the picture I put back in of the young Ratzinger is copyrighted.  I thought it was taken out as part of the continual editorializing additions.  Tell me if I am wrong, and I will not restore that image. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 04:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyvios 

message: The Cardinal Deacon addressed the crowd as "dear brothers and sisters" in several languages, which was quite moving in bringing home the global nature of the audience.  Anyone know the list of languages?  Can we put this into the text of the announcement?  Thanks -- Chris vLS 05:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Google News indicates that the languages were Italian, German, Spanish and English.  Can anyone confirm this? Vashti 10:53, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I have just reviewed the tape, the address "Dear brother and sisters" was first in Italian, then Spanish, French, German and English. The rest of the announcement was in Latin. I have added this to the article to reflect this but could someone please provide the Spanish and German text as well? --Kvasir 11:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Missing text from the announcement 

message: This sentence is assumes more knowledge than I think is reasonable:
"His first name was already Joseph and together with Benedict, which he has now assumed, his Christian namesake is now complete."
I don't know what that means. 24.95.150.93 09:13, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Clarification request 

message: The theology of von Balthasar, Lubac, etc. is commonly called "nouvelle theologie" in English.  There are several things called new theology.  Using the french is a way of picking out the right one.  Perhaps it should be capitalized.  We don't just translate borrowed foreign-originating technical/proper terms though.  For instance  Landespolizei and Ordnungspolizei, which mean "state police" and "order police". Or Habilitationsschrift, which means "Clothing writing"--Samuel J. Howard 05:56, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
:Y'know, you ought to start a page on that.  — Rickyrab | Talk 06:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Italicising it would probably be proper. WestonWyse 06:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Nouvelle Theologie 

message: Which of these two images do people feel should be at the top of the article?  They both now “appear” to be free of copyright infringements.
:Image:Pope Benedict XVI.jpg
:Image:Popebenedictxvi firsttimeonthrone.jpg
# My vote is for the second one.  You can see more of him and he seems to be in a better mood! No changes will be made until opinions are heard to avoid making people upset and causing edit wars -Husnock 06:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The resemblance is disturbing. --Paradigm 10:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Thanks all for the calm discussion about this.  I switched the photos.  I agree that when the Vatican puts out an official one, that should go in ASAP. -Husnock 07:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Image Vote Called For 

message: Though it is in the form of a cartoon, I think yall should look at it. Zscout370 12:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yet another Hitler Reference 

message: This has created a fantastic debate about whether Pope Adrian VI can be considered the last German pope before Benedict XVI, or if it was Victor II from the 11th century as many news sources are claiming. Since it has to do with whether Adrian VI was Dutch or German (or both), I'd love to see anyone interested in the debate continue it on the Pope Adrian VI talk page, since it will get lost in the archives here. -Eisnel 03:55, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Who knows how long an individual will live, but, the average age of death for a pope in the last 250-years (17 previous popes since 1750) is 78 years, 123 days. Benedict XVI is 78 years, 3 days old on April 19, 2005. Reubenbarton 08:50, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

text: Goethe was born and lived within the current borders of Germany. That's quite different from Adrian VI and Stephen X. Besides, I am not proposing a "rule" as you call it, I am proposing a rewording of the article, so please comment the rewording I proposed. Hardouin 14:27, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  First German Pope since 1523 

message: Due to the fairly constant and persistent vandalism and obviously rather fervent disputes regarding some aspects of Benedict16's biography and character, perhaps this page should be locked for a few days.  Once this item is out of the news for a bit, the chaos here will probably die out some.
*We had the page locked before, but once it was, people came straight to here and complained about it being locked. Since it is on the main page, admins locked it before, as with other things on the main page. I will try to put a request on the Protection Page and use the reasoning I used above. Also, once again please sign all posts using four tildes ~~~~ or press the signature button (next to last button on the right, between the Nowiki and the line button). Zscout370 13:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: One problem with a lock right now: since the page is a current event item, it needs constant updates as events unfold. If it's locked, admins are not supposed to edit its content at all. So in this case, if it's locked and something changes, admins will be tempted to edit it while locked in order to keep it current, and that goes against Wikipedia policy and spirit. This is from the Wikipedia:Protection_policy page: "When a page is particularly high profile, either because it's linked off the main page, or because it's recently receieved a prominent link from offsite, it will often become a target for vandalism. It is best not to protect pages in this case. Instead consider adding them to your watchlist, and reverting vandalism yourself." Granted, the high visibility of this page has attracted lots of vandals, but it's also attracted lots of Wikipedians who have taken up the call to defend its integrity. -Eisnel 16:25, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perhaps this page should be locked for awhile... 

message: Can someone verify the Latin name "Benedictus" ? I also thought it was that but on http://www.vatican.va/ , it's spelled "Benedictum".
--Procule 13:44, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Latin name 

message: To be honest, the vandalism which is going on here is distracting and probably concealing vandalism taking place on other pages throughout the Wikipedia project due to the attention diverted to keeping *this* article relatively stable.
Rather than just doing the temporary-lock-and-release routine which was trying to control damage yesterday, I think the admins might want to block edits by identified vandals on this page or *anywhere* on the Wikipedia subject to review and removal of ban when and if circumstances justify restoration of editing rights.
Whig 15:04, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: under "Early life": "In 1943, at the age of 16, he and many of his classmates were drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, he was killed in action." --Cdamian 15:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  killed in action? 

message: Someone keeps removing the Dachau reference from this sentence, under "early life":
"They were posted first to Ludwigsfeld, north of Munich, as part of a detachment responsible for guarding a BMW aircraft engine plant that used slave labour from the Dachau concentration camp."
That BMW used slave labour from Dachau is a perfectly legitimate historical point. It is a different issue from calling Ratzinger an outright Nazi. If the plant is mentioned without a reference to its use of slave labour, readers will not be aware of exactly what Ratzinger was guarding. Please don't sanitize the history of this period.
:Every German industrial plant used slave labor during World War II.  Unless it is specifically relevant to Ratzinger in some way, I don't see why it should be in the article. john k 15:48, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: The name of the industrial concern "BMW" is specified.  I am unsure how that is specifically relevant to Ratzinger.  So, why don't we remove all details and context.  Does that make better history, M. Kenney? Dickumbrage 16:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: And at least the possibility that Ratzinger might have been aware that he was guarding a plant that used slave labour is relevant, given the moral gravity accorded to the position of pope. The initial edit, by the way, merely mentioned BMW, not that the plant made aircraft engines. Which of these two is most relevant? Perhaps it's also a given that all BMW plants made military parts. Nevertheless, some readers might assume he was merely guarding a car factory. I agree with Dick Umbrage: if we remove the reference to Dachau, why not also BMW? Or perhaps even his work as a guard? --Bwventril 16:32, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  BMW slave labour 

message: :This is not a discussion page on the Pope. You might easily find discussion boards to voice your opinion. -- KTC 16:51, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  The vandalism is useless