Talk:Ken Blackwell

message: He is on the Board of Directors for the conservative Club for Growth.
This article is, on the whole, extremely unbalanced. 
 
1) It repeats numerous charges made against Blackwell by Democratic advocacy groups and party members, but provides very few links to where those charges are laid out, providing no way for readers to check for themselves on the nature of the claims and reliability of the sources.
:the claims are laid out in the 2004 election irregularities article and the relevant litigation documents, both of which are clearly linked to from this article, in the relevant section. Kevin Baastalk: new 22:15, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
2) In several instances the partisan source of these charges are NOT acknowledged.  We are told that "many" have made a complaint/accusation.  This may be factually correct, but in context it misleads, suggesting that people of various political stripes agree on the criticism, when in fact, all the accusers are strongly partisan. (Note: the partisan nature of the sources neither proves nor disproves their validity.  But it is only fair to let the reader KNOW the political commitments of these folks.)
:the allegations are not of a partisian nature, nor are the motives partisan, and the sources are multi-partisan, and often non-partisan. (such as non-partisan organizations) Kevin Baastalk: new 22:15, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
3) The charges alone are listed.  Very little is said about the arguments Blackwell and others have made for his position and actions.
:that's because they have not made arguments for their positions and actions. Kevin Baastalk: new 22:15, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
Major case in point:  the October 21 district court decision against Blackwell was cited (together with a gratuitous partisan remark from the judge that shed NO light on the arguments or merits of either side in the case).  But there was no mention, much less a link to the appeals court's reversal of that decision.
:well put it in the article, then. Kevin Baastalk: new 22:15, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
Again, the 
4)It treats strongly partisan web sites from one side as reliable news sources, 
And, once again, there is not even a mention of sources that dispute the claims.
:many of those "strongly partisan" web sites you refer to are registered "non-partisan" websites.  And so long as the news actually is reliable, what does it matter how some people characterize the source? - it doesn't affect the veracity of the information.  
:i'm not aware of any sources that dispute the claims, they are empirically verifiable. Kevin Baastalk: new 22:15, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
::Just because one person says those sites are non-partisan, doesn't mean they are. I look at references from Democracy Now and other sites like it, and see no non-partisanship. If Mr. Bass would be interested in at least looking at facts instead of putting conjecture forth, that would be quite helpful. If he is not, then it would be prudent to have him removed and banned from editing this article. 
5) The language is repeatedly slanted to characterize(or rather caricature) Blackwell, when the basic facts could be laid out very simply, leaving the reader to judge.
:i've tried to lay out the basic facts very simply.  if you think you can lay them out more simply, be my guest, instead of just complaining. Kevin Baastalk: new 22:15, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
You are, of course, entitled to your own POV on Blackwell.  And you are welcome to publish it on DU forums, dKospedia and numerous blogs.   But the point of THIS web site on a subject where there is a political dispute OUGHT to be to lay out the essential facts and the points made by BOTH sides, and to point people to the original sources that can help them arrive at their own judgment.
:everyone is entitled to their own pov, but not their own facts.  the point of this website is to present the facts. Kevin Baastalk: new 22:15, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
A challenge (for starters): 
a) clearly state WHO has made particular charges.   Try using ACTIVE voice and including clearly identified SUBJECTS "[Democrats/PN/...]charge", rather than "came under fire" (from WHOM?) and "Many have charged..."
b) clearly SOURCE the claims -- provide LINKS
c)attempt to find and include the responses Blackwell and his supporters have made to the charges and provide links to these as well (and "from their own mouths", not citations in DailyKos, et.al.)
:Go ahead and search, but keep it in proportion, that is, try to avoid selection bias.  And don't try to balance a fact with an opinion. Kevin Baastalk: new 22:15, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
--BruceJohnson 16:59, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: With politicians, I usually don't bother to say "Democrats charged..." or "Republicans charged..."  The U.S. political culture is so polarized that you can count on sniping between the parties.  I tend to mention party affiliation only when it's surprising -- when McCain criticizes Bush or the like. JamesMLane 17:15, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

text: OK, Bruce, I'm throwing your challenge back atcha.  I looked at a few of the reports of the "barnyard animals" slur.  I didn't find one that supported calling it an "offhand remark".  I didn't want to spend all afternoon looking, though, so having made a reasonable effort, I removed the unsupported statement.  If you want to reinsert it, then I'll respectfully direct you to your own advice above: "clearly SOURCE the claims -- provide LINKS".  Note that, even if it was originally an offhand remark, Blackwell's put it on his website, so it's not like something that just slipped out to his regret. JamesMLane 19:38, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article poorly sourced, strong partisan POV =

message: A gentleman from Ohio just brought up an important point: This article is lacking any discussion of the Coingate or Noe scandals.  I haven't heard of the "Noe" scandal, but Coingate is pretty well known in politically educated circles outside of Ohio.  If someone is fairly knowledgable on coingate and how K.B. (and the Ohio republican party - in the broader picture) is involved in it, i believe that would be a great contribution to the article, and interesting and important for readers like the gentleman who came here to find info on that topic. Kevin baas 18:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: CoinGate and Noe Scandal

message: This article has too little actual info. about Mr. Blackwell, most of it is about the election "scandal", this by itself may be POV as the disputes about Ohio in 2004 were certainly not on par with Florida in 2000 as this article would imply, only the fringe left floats conspiracy theories on this matter, it isn't taken seriously by mainstream politicos of either U.S. party...
:If you think that the article would benefit from more "actual info." about Blackwell, feel free to add it.  In general, we don't try to achieve a spurious balance in an article by deleting information. JamesMLane t c 17:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This issue is taken very seriously by mainstream politicians from both parties. Kevin Baastalk 18:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Too little info. on Blackwell 

message: Why is there a "List of legal suits"?  It doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose to simply list lawsuits against a politician in his official capacity.  Also, many of the links are no longer valid. --Ajdz 06:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Those suits are all related to the 2004 election irregularities, and are all pretty significant - and it's significnat that there are so many (so closely clustered together in time).  Politicians, esp. state don't usually have so many legal suits against them at the same time.  They usually have one at a time, if there ever is one, and it usually makes the news and gets them out of office. Think of it as like the discussion on lewis libby's page about the one lawsuit he's involved in, or the like.  Though obviously there's no space to go into any knid of depths of these suits here.  Kevin Baastalk 18:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The number doesn't seem all that significant for a disputed election where probably any voter could start a separate lawsuit.  Including a list here seem more like using wikipedia to make a point, rather than trying to provide useful information.  Here, the cases should be listed in an article on the election, not Blackwell's biography.  I believe you are wrong about the rarity suits against politicians.  Any election-related suit (and probably others) in Ohio probably involves Blackwell by virtue of his office. --Ajdz 18:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: you are suggested that these lawsuits are started by voters.  i think there may be a civil case or two in there, but no, that clearly does not explain the number. at all.  including the list instead of describing each suit is a matter of keeping the article in proportion.  Granted, most ppl who know of KB probably know about him through the 2004 irregularites, this section can't become to large in proportion to the ones above it.  It is a list because a list is smaller (more compressed) then a brief discussion of each suit.  But if you want to discuss that, then discuss it.  you state that you believe i am wrong about the rarity of suits against politicians without providing any supporting evidence.  election-related suits in ohio involve blackwell by virtue of his conduct in office.  they involve him because the problems were direct results of his actions.  he is not accused of being "guilty by association", but guilty by cause.  So i don't see why that's a problem.  the suits are proportional to the causes, as well they should be. Kevin Baastalk 18:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know of a single comprehensive source that explains the process of suing secretaries of state, but here is one example - a suit against Blackwell because he refused to accept nominating petitions after a statutory filing deadline.  The case, of course, is not at all notable and not worth mentioning in Blackwell's bio.  I expect the same from much of the current list.  As the person responsible for conducting elections, probably all election-related suits would involved Blackwell in order to compel him or his office to take some action or another. --Ajdz 19:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: That doesn't neccessarily follow, election workers at all levels are subject to being sued, so is everyone in the DOE at both state and county levels.  Also, this unsound argument's implied logic that the suits are therefore meritless is logically invalid.  Does that also mean that he therefore can do no wrong?  Because if so, Ohio's got a great system that we should all use as a model! Kevin Baastalk 20:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not making an argument, I'm explaining a rather basic point of election law.  I have NEVER said the suits are meritless, just that they don't belong in Ken Blackwell's biography.  Relax. --Ajdz 22:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: When people talk about 'ol kenny, this is what they talk about, in the same way and to the same degree that when people talk about 'ol scooter, this is what they talk about. So far the sake of consistency, if what you say is true then there's a lot of revising to do to the lewis libby article. Kevin Baastalk 22:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

text: Of the two cases that have valid links, only one is useful (has an article) at this time.  The other is an improperly-filed suit against putting a state constitutional amendment on the ballot and disputes the conduct of petition-gatherers, not Blackwell. --Ajdz 19:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Ah, true true.  Regarding the links:
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed.  Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. Kevin Baastalk 20:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of legal suits 

message: Kudos to those who have worked on this article.  It has improved quite a lot since I last looked at it.  I'd be inclined to agree with some of those above that the material on the 2004 election ought to be elsewhere, say an article on the 2004 election in general or a special one about the allegations in Ohio.  Keep up the good work.  PedanticallySpeaking 17:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Much improvment

message: contrary to the modus operandi of some here, i would like to propose a deletion before i go ahead and do it.  this article has been tagged as one which has "unsourced statements."  i personally have added 26(!) sources to this article which leaves with with the feeling that this a largely undeserved tag.  if anyone believes this tag still applies, please point out the offending passages and they will be corrected (deleted or sourced).  otherwise i will remove this tag. 68.76.46.37 21:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The category?  I didn't even notice it until now.  I don't think the article as a whole lacks sources, but it looks like the category is added by use of the cite-needed tag and there's at least one statement that still needs a source. --Ajdz 00:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  proposal to remove "article with unsourced statements" tag 

message: Anyone with knowledge of his early life or who wants to do some research, that section needs expansion, and your contributions will be welcomed and are encouraged. Kevin Baastalk 20:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Early Life needs expansion

message: *USA Today article - front page of politics section
Kevin Baastalk 13:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  recent news (2006-06-29) 

message: Any objection to creating a new article to the discussion of the merits and alternatives to the "TEL" and abbreviating the discussion here?  TheronJ 16:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Isn't it settled as law already, or is the amendment going to be on the ballot?Rkevins82 18:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

text: I don't know why my comment was surprising.  I merely noted that a legislative version had passed and had heard that the amendment itself was withdrawn.  Maybe the previous poster could edit an article instead of scold others.Rkevins82 18:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  66, thanks for contributing your TEL expertise.  I've rewritten the section a little to try to bring the focus back to Blackwell.  IMHO, if you would like a discussion of whether Blackwell's win shows public support for the TEL, maybe we should include it in a page on spending reform.  (I'd be happy to help with that).  I've also re-included the Strickland "flip-flopping" charge, which I think is relevant because it relates to how the TEL is affecting Blackwell's gubnatorial run.  Thanks, TheronJ 17:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spin Out "Tax and Expenditure Limitation (TEL) Amendment" to New Article? 

message: This article has long been at Ken Blackwell, but was recently moved to John Kenneth Blackwell.  Wikipedia policy on this subject is found in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names): We are to use the most common unambiguous name of a person, such as Bill Clinton.  In this case, Blackwell's campaign website calls him "Ken Blackwell".  That also seems to be the form most common in the media.  The issue of finding the article is addressed by putting redirects at other forms of the name, so John Kenneth Blackwell is properly a redirect here. JamesMLane t c 14:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: FWIW, I think your move is obviously correct.--Inonit 16:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Concur.  PedanticallySpeaking 20:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Yep. -MrFizyx 21:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article title - why I've moved it back 

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