Talk:Qajar dynasty

message: Though the previous map has been there before, there is evidence supporting this map (wikipedia image): Greatest extent of the Qajar empire.png
Evidence: 
Treaty of Turkomenchai (wikipedia article about it is also available) (Evidence= Svante Cornell. Small nations and great powers: A Study of Ethnopolitical Conflict in the Caucasus. Richmond: Curzon Press, 2001, p. 37.) .. Treaty of Golestan (wikipedia article about it is also available) (evidence= Svante Cornell. Small nations and great powers: A Study of Ethnopolitical Conflict in the Caucasus. Richmond: Curzon Press, 2001, p. 37.) .. Treaty of Berlin 1878 (evidence=modern day borders) .. Treaty of Erzurum (evidence = modern day borders) .. First Goldsmid Arbitration (evidence = https://books.google.ca/books?id=VCTipPJdKBwC&pg=PR20&lpg=PR20&dq=first+goldsmid+arbitration&source=bl&ots=CDTRKhxiFP&sig=Vq23vR8-yp3YGQEvOyqMirSMECU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Nx6bVaTBL4isyQSQx6WwCA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=first%20goldsmid%20arbitration&f=false) .. second Goldsmid Arbitration (evidence= http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/helmand-river-iv (in one of the paragraphs.) .. Macmohan Arbitration 1905 (evidence= https://books.google.ca/books?id=lm_UAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA469&dq=Macmahon+arbitration+persia&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false.) (Also mentioned in wikipedia article about greater Iran) .. Treaty of Paris 1875 (evidence= Immortal: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces Steven R. Ward, p.80 & The Middle East and North Africa 2004 Taylor & Francis Group, Lucy Dean p.364)(wikipedia article also available about this treaty) .. treaty of 1893 (evidence= https://books.google.ca/books?id=VCTipPJdKBwC&pg=PR20&lpg=PR20&dq=treaty+of+1893+russia+iran&source=bl&ots=CDTRKhxmHR&sig=SssjTkM0gya3wvSE1X0vuRQk-Uk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3R-bVYunDM-syASQ_bDABQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=treaty%20of%201893%20russia%20iran&f=false) .. Treaty of 1881 (acctually the treaty of Akhal & a wikipedia article for it is available)(Evidence= Mahdavi, H. A. Tarikh-i Ravābit-i Khareji -e Iran. 1985. p. 286-287. Also an old map of the era shows herat as a part of persia, confirming my maps accuracy. 
The existence of those treaties supports this map: http://www.iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/images/182%20Qajar%20Territorial%20Changes%2019th%20&%2020th%20Centuries%20Iran%200%20Map.jpg, and add all the territorial losses of the linked map together and at its greatest extent the map of the qajar dynasty would look like this wikipedia image: Greatest extent of the Qajar empire.png.
Then again the "commonly accepted map" is of persia in the 1900's NOT showing the territory of the 1700's and 1800's.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by History of Persia (talk • contribs) 20:41, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Your first and fourth links don't  yield anything readable. Your third link just yields the cover of Syke's volume 2, a book of 616 pages, and is thus of no use. The fifth link (map) could possibly be a good alternative to the present one, but certainly not the one you insist on using, which appears to me to be an  original work. Sapphorain (talk) 21:25, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Qajar map

message: The picture captioned "Qajar Persian Empire in 1808" blocks off some of the "origins" section when viewed in Google Chrome.
TVTMaster (talk) 17:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Browser error

message: The Qajar were Turks, i.e. Azerbaijani Turks, but not Turkmen. Maybe Turcoman, referring to Iranian Shiite Turkic tribes, would be more appropriate, but not Turkmen. Turkmen refers to the Turkmen of Turkmenistan, who had nothing to do with either Azerbaijani or Iranian rulers. Please do not put this word (Turkmen) in the article, because it is purely misleading. Bm79 16:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: They did not descend from Ohguz Turks, however, they did speak a language of Oghuz origin. To say that they are of Oghuz origin is wrong, because, and this is the most obvious reason, they werent Mongoloid!Azerbaijani 21:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  Oghuz Turks aren't mongoloid either. Look at Azerbaijan, Turkey, Gagauzia etc.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.110.253.246 (talk) 14:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  The phrase Turkmen is incorrect and misleading when relating it to the ethnicity of the Qajar 

message: In "The Qajar rulers were members of the Karagöz or "Black-Eye" sept of the Qajars..." does sept refer to a named branch of 7 branches of the group, to Irish clans, or is this a typo of sect? Dlamblin (talk) 19:18, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Define "sept" 

message: With all due respect, I find it unlikely that Iran was jointly garrisoned/occupied during World War I by the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire, and the British...  simply because the Ottomans were involved in combat against both of these powers, especially in the Arab Revolt.  I would love to see some evidence of how this joint garrison worked, or of its existence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GWRunkleIV (talk • contribs) 23:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I imagine it worked like most joint garrisions between warring nations; they shot at each other. 74.36.192.238 13:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ottomans During World War I? 

message: As per the Azerbaijani history template, its unnecessary. Are we then also going to add Armenia, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, etc... templates? In the Ottoman empire are we going to add Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, etc... templates? It doesnt make sense and is unnecessary. Other than that, I made some corrections.Hajji Piruz 13:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Again Qajars have more relevance to Azerbaijan, as they spoke the same language and shared the same culture as the rest of what's now known as Azerbaijan. Both Ganja and Karabakh regions of Azerbaijan were governed by Ziyadoghlu Qajars, so it's absolutely relevant. Do not remove the template without proper discussion and consensus. I also added some references to Qajars from Iranica, etc. Atabek 18:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: THis makes absolutely no sense at all. The Qajar dynasty is different than the early Qajars that ruled in the Caucasus, as they are their descendants. Also, I removed some repitition and made other corrections, such as wikilinking Turkmen to its proper article.Hajji Piruz 18:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Template

message: Various sources use any one of these definitions to identify Qajar tribe. So I think for the purposes of disassociating Qajars with Turkey or Turkmenistan, or with modern Turkomans in Iraq, the best is just to use Turkic. Please, provide your comments in this regard. Atabek 23:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Turkic vs Turkish vs Turkmen vs Turkoman

message: Do you even review what you're reverting? Atabek 23:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you Alex. Meanwhile, I welcome everyone's participation in discussing the edits here. Atabek 00:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I fixed that section with info from kadjar royal family's own website, hope, this will clarify all, by the way, i think Qajar dynasty and Qajar (tribe) must be covered in separate articles, because there is much info on this page that relates to Qajar tribe more that to Qajar royal family. Ateshi-Baghavan 01:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Houshyar - revert warring 

message: Hajji Piruz, renaming Turkoman to Turkmen, when the source webpage of Qajar family itself says Turkoman looks most definitely as OR. FYI, Oghuz family includes Turkmens, Azeris, Turks of Anatolia, Turkomans of Iraq as well, not only Turkmens. Also, the Iranian Turkmens citing is also a POV and OR, as it's clear from the text that Qovanli Qajars that ruled Iran came from around Caucasus and Anatolia. Atabek 18:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's your original research. The source only says Turkomans, without any further elaboration. Also, Caucasus was Iran at time, all the major encyclopedias call Qajar "an Iranian dynasty" or a "Persian dynasty", look up Qajar on any Encyclopedia out there.    AlexanderPar 19:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Source wording

message: when your mother is from a dynasty, you are a member of that. There is no difference between mother or father in this case--Pejman47 17:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I added back the reference that Qajars were of Turkic descent, because that's what Richard Frye reference says - Qajars were Turks. Qajars did not originate in Iranian Azerbaijan, so it's simply false to say that Qajars were Azerbaijani Iranian descent, and then quote Frye on it. Atabek 23:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  maternal relationship 

message: It is important to distinguish between Persian as a nationality (Persian: ایرانی = an inhabitant of Persia) and Pars as an ethnicity (Persian: فارس or پارس). At the time of Qajar dynasty, the name of the country in English language was Persia (a country named "Iran" did not exist at that time in English language), and, therefore, all the inhabitants of the country were Persian (the adjective "Iranian" was not introduced in English language at that time). In Persian language, however, the name of the country was always "Iran (Persian: ایران)" (in fact, no country named "Persia" has ever existed in Persian language).
Regardless of the fact that the Qajars were ethnically Pars or not, there were all Persian, and they were kings of Persia. It was only after 1934 that Reza Shah (from Pahlavi Dynasty) ordered to use the name "Iran" internationally. Using the name "Iran" in this article (and other articles related to the time before 1934) is, therefore, not appropriate. It will create confusion for the reader if he (for example) refers to a map of that time and tries to find a country named "Iran." I will, therefore, replace "Iran" with "Persia" in this article wherever it refers to the name of the country. Please give your comments here if you consider this not justified. FakhredinBlog 14:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: FarkhredinBlog, "Qajar Iran" returns about 188,000 hits , while "Qajar Persia" returns 158,000 . Iran is not a name which just appeared in 1930s under Reza Shah, it was used before in Iran itself as the name of the country. Thanks. Atabek 15:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: In the Atabek's editions , I think it is better to mention in the opening that Persia and Iran are used as equal words in this text, such as using something alike persia/Iran...Indeed it may be problematic to call the Turkic language Qajars " a Persian dynasty"...( I mean an Iranian dynasty fits better)--Alborz Fallah 16:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

text: That's fine to put an introductory note, which would clear things up, that in historical Western context Iran prior to 1935 was referred to as Persia, so the words maybe used interchangeably. By the way, intro text used to say Iranian dynasty, because that's what book by Abbas Amanat says "Iranian monarchy", I don't know why it got changed to Persian. I think for the purposes of Wikipedia article, it's better to stick to modern more general definition of Iran. Atabek 16:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

text: During the Qajar era, Persia was the name of the country  and Persian  was the nationality in the English language, so the correct terminology here is Persian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.133.62 (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

text: It is complete nonsense to say that the word "Iran" was introduced into English by Reza Shah in 1935.  See the 1911 Britannica for instance, which calls the country Persia, but uses Iran as a geographical term for the plateau on which the country of Persia is located.  It was a longstanding synonym for Persia in English well before Reza Shah decided that the country should not be called Persia in English anymore. john k (talk) 22:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Persian" is a nationality, "Pars" is an ethnicity 

message: Mani1, you have removed the references to the descent of Qajars in your most recent edits. Please, do not remove sourced material from the article without discussion on talk page. Address your points and justify your removal, obtain consensus and then edit. Thanks. Atabek 19:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Kansas Bear, you removed the reference to origin of Qajars. Please, do not justify your edit by reciting concrete sources rather than claiming "sources say...". Atabəy (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: New edits

message: I created Fath Ali Khan using a few sentences from this article, and the copyright bot hit me, citing this website (which is marked as copyright 2007/2008)!  I double checked our text wasnt a copyvio, and Talk:Fath Ali Khan has more details.  John Vandenberg (chat) 04:04, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The background to this is that s:Durrani Vazir Wali Khan Qajar is a biog on Wikisource that is being considered for deletion as it doesnt appear to be a published source.  We are not sure what to do with it.  Is that person notable?  Could a wikipedia biog be written using the facts on that page? John Vandenberg (chat) 04:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Flattery 

message: The following sentence implies that the name Iran is something new.
'(the country now known as Iran)'
Iran has always been known and called by its inhabitants as Iran. Please reword this.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 21:25, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reword 

message: What is the basis and meaning of this distinction?  john k (talk) 22:08, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Head of family vs. heir presumptive 

message: in Turkish. (Qajar Dynasty = a Turkish Dynasty) Böri (talk) 06:54, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kaçar 

message: There's no information about the relationship between the Qajars and the Ottomans. Anyone who has enough knowledge about the relationship, please add to the article Mirochi (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Relationship With The Ottomans 

message: http://books.google.com/books?id=BJFCAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Title	Persian children of the royal family: the narrative of an English tutor at the court of H. I. H. Zillu's-Sultán, G.C.S.I.
Author	Wilfrid Sparroy
Publisher	J. Lane, 1902
Original from	the University of California
Digitized	Oct 16, 2007
Length	349 pages
Subjects	Iran
http://books.google.com/books?id=zOMUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Title	Persian life and customs: with scenes and incidents of residence and travel in the land of the lion and the sun
Author	Samuel Graham Wilson
Edition	3
Publisher	F.H. Revell Co., 1900
Original from	Harvard University
Digitized	Feb 2, 2008
Length	333 pages
Subjects	Iran
Missions
Rajmaan (talk) 19:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Qajar royals and life in Qajar Iran 

message: The terms "brutal murder" and "kind leader" are opinion and therefore do not belong in the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.33.184 (talk) 15:56, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed and changed the terms in question. Also, I changed murder to "death", since I could not find any mention/source for murder. If this is incorrect, then provide a source for the "murder" and change it back. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased article 

message: I added Turkic to the list of languages of the Qajar dynasty, which I cited from Encyclopædia Iranica. It appears that Turkic was used in court by the Qajar rulers -- at least according to the source in question. This makes me wonder if the Qajar dynasty was indeed Persianized, as the lead sentence of the article suggests, or if this information is actually wrong. I think it's best if the lead sentence simply stated that it was an Iranian royal family of Turkic origin, unless someone could find the quotation that would confirm the dynasty was Persianized. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 16:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  My contribution to the article... 

message: In the sentence 
"In Iran, the Qajar dynasty is commonly considered the weakest dynasty in Iranian history that lost many of its controlled areas to the Russians",
the portion 
"is commonly considered the weakest dynasty in Iranian history that"
is derogatory, vague, is not neutral, and and is not backed by any source, so I removed it. Its author's (User:HistoryofIran) comment
"i don't think we need a source that the Qajars were one of the weakest Iranian dynasties, i mean look what they did to Iran."
is simply not acceptable by wikipedian standards. Sapphorain (talk) 08:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Derogatory comments in introduction 

message: User:Karak1lc1k, continues to edit war Azerbaijani language into the template, yet the source clearly states, "Turkic".
"Turkic-Iranian Contacts, John R. Perry, Encyclopaedia Iranica, (August 15, 2006);"Turkic was also the mother tongue and, to an extent, the court language of the subsequent Afsharid and Qajar dynasties".
Nothing in the source supports "Azeri Turk". Therefore this, yet again, is original research. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Original research by user:Karak1lc1k  

message: I suppressed Marjane Satrapi from the list of notable members of the family. I have been in contact with the genealogist of the family on my talk page last August: she does not appear in the genealogy of the family and was unable to provide sources to her claim. I put a "citation needed" last August, and nothing happened. Sapphorain (talk) 11:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Satrapi 

message: Why is information about the country fused in with info about the royal family? shouldnt these be seperated into 2 different articles? you could have a qajar dynasty article and then a Qajar Empire article. 
XXxNoscopeGodxXX (talk) 20:17, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dynasty VS Kingdom 

message: Here user JesseRafe removed this line  writing " too wordy and likely agenda-laden", though the content was fully sourced in the body, and no references are needed for the lede. 
Thereafter, when I reverted him, he reverted it back, using a WP:BATTLE loaded edit summary, describing sourced content written by highly accredited professors in history as "written by blablabla", and demanding me to bring it to the talk page, instead of making a bold move himself (as he's the one contesting referenced/sourced content), per WP:BRD.
You'd think he'd stop by now, but no, afterwards, he unfortunately reverted it once again, continuing the WARRING. Still, absolutely 0.0% legitimation nor the correct steps taken by this user in order to adress his concerns. Afterwards, as he was already at 3 reverts, he simply decided to remove the same material, but now from the body.. Pure disruption on multiple fronts. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:19, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with both versions. A claim like "lost many of Iran's integral areas" is very pov: it is the pov of the source that is cited, but since there will obviously be other pov's, (including more realistic ones that would state that the lost territories were actually integral to Armenia, or Georgia, or Azerbaijan) this phrase is unsuitable for the lead. These areas were not "integral" under normal usage of the term, if they were actually integral the loss of them would have meant Iran would have ceased to exist after their loss. What "the concept of Iran" is, is best covered in the body of the article. If sources indicate that the Qajars were especially preoccupied with considerations about the idea of "the concept of Iran", it should not be narrowed down to something as specific as lost territory in the southern Caucasus. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:20, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Edit warring editor 

message: As already asked above, wouldn't it be clearer to split the article into one named "Qajar dynasty" and another named "Qajar Empire" or "Qajar Iran"? Orkhonien (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree with "Qajar Iran".
* 
* 
* 
* 
*  Benyamin-ln (talk) 08:43, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:    Your thoughts? I would agree based on WP:COMMONNAME amongst others. Splitting the content will allow us to have one article for the ruling dynasty, and one article for the country during the dynasty's rule. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:07, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

text:  Agree with "Qajar Iran" per Kansas Bear's rationale.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 00:55, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

text: I've requested at Wikipedia talk:Splitting#Closing of Talk:Qajar dynasty#Split? requested that someone close the discussion. --Orkhonien (talk) 13:11, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  An administrator isn't needed.  See WP:SPLIT starting at Step 4. Dan Bloch (talk) 16:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

text: Item Q63158027 is for the state and Item Q189326 is for the dynasty. I corredted the mistakes which occurred during the split. Benyamin-ln (talk) 11:18, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Split? 

message: The current article lists Shahzade Arian J. Salari as the Heir Presumptive of the Qajar Dynasty and provides as a citation... a link to an online Roleplaying Game which is not a reliable source, and even if it were, does not actually  state the status of Mr. Salari (unless google translate is completely failing on me, which is a possibility). Now I suspect the article is correct (a cursory google suggests that an Arian J. Salari does exist, and his blog has a crown on it) but we need an actual RS to back it up.
GeekX (talk) 05:52, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation for Heir Presumptive

message: Hey for your notice most qajar dynasties cadet branches are considered to be azerbaijani why dynasty itself can’t be considered Azerbaiiani?Thank you  MesudEDITOR (talk) 05:27, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Qajar dynasty 

message: There is no problem in writing the name of the dynasty in Azerbaijani.  Because the dynasty was of Turkic origin and they spoke Azerbaijani.  The abolition of the Azerbaijani language was ridiculous , biased ,vandalism , nationalist .  So it completely breaks the impartiality. Veryordinaryperson (talk) 08:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Azerbaijani language 

message: Can we include a map of the Qajar dynasty? That would be highly beneficial to this page. 
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Qajar_dynasty_(greatest_extent_in_Iranian_school_books).jpg
WikiAmerican1 (talk) 20:07, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where’s the map?