Talk:History of Germany (1945–1990)

message: B-class PKKloeppel (talk) 16:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: The problem is that the title History of Germany since 1945 covers way too much ground. This entry should be used to give an overview of the period, not contain everything that has happened to Germany since WW2. Given that, this page should summarise and link to certain periods, not merge everything here. This page is already rather long. Adding more content would not be a good idea.
There are, to me, 5 clearly different stages of post-1945 German history
* Occupation and Division
* West Germany
* East Germany
* Reunification
* Modern Germany
The first of these stages does not have an entry of its own, and I think it should. We need an article entitled History of Germany 1945-1949 or Post-WW2 Division of Germany or something like that - similar to the German entry de:Deutschland 1945–1949. Such an article, covering the period where Germany was simply an occupied territory, divided between the members of the Allied Control Council, would then fit in nicely between Nazi Germany and the separate states of East and West Germany.
This period, where there was no East nor West Germany, is an important period in history, even though it is only 4 years long. Within this period, events such as the Berlin Airlift and the Soviet departure from the ACC will then have a clear place.
After this 1945-49 entry, the individual entries for East and West Germany then follow. These two states were independent states and deserve to have separate entries, just like all other historical states.
The section East-West Relations does not fit in just one entry elswehere, so placing it on this post-1945 page is ideal.
To fix all of this up would require a lot of work, but in the end it would be worth it.  —  52 Pickup 09:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Summarise and link, don't merge 

message: There is no consenus above for a merger - in fact a majority opposed to a merger. I'm removing the tags. Mark83 18:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger conclusion

message: It's a point of view of some Germans. 
Xx236 12:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:   expulsion of ca. 11 million German civilians, and the death of ca. 2.1 million more 

message: "Germany has been arguably the centerpiece of the European Union (though the importance of France cannot be overlooked in this connection)." is this not biased towards Germany and France? I see no reason to mention any other EU country in this, especially overlooking other big nations like Britain. Is Germany arguably the center? Would it not be better to say its at the center, not the center, there are other big players too.
Germany and France are the motors of a united Europe. It is the memory of a violent past and the confirmation of a great friendship now.--92.229.14.161 (talk) 20:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  EU 

message: The integration process and the level of involvement needs to be described.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.102.206 (talk) 16:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  European Union is missing 

message: 1. The following statement should be changed in the article, "The ongoing expulsion of Germans from Poland and Soviet Union, from the Sudetenland, and from Hungary, Yugoslavia, and Romania, was authorized by the Allies in Potsdam . . ."  The Potsdam Agreement stipulates, "The Three Governments, having considered the question in all its aspects, recognize that the transfer to Germany of German populations, or elements thereof, remaining in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, will have to be undertaken. They agree that any transfers that take place should be effected in an orderly and humane manner."
2. Also, the following is from the Wikipedia subject "Potsdam Agreement": "Because the Allied Occupation Zones in Germany were under great strain the Czechoslovak Government, the Polish Provisional Government and the Control Council in Hungary were asked to submit an estimate of the time and rate at which further transfers could be carried out having regard to the present situation in Germany and suspend further expulsions until these estimates were integrated into plans for an equitable distribution of these "removed" Germans among the several zones of occupation."
3. Proposed restatement: "The ongoing expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia, Poland (to include the assigned Administrative Territories of most of Eastern Germany beyond the Oder-Neisse Line), and Hungary, was authorized by the Allies at Potsdam . . ."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 11:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The ongoing expulsion of Germans from Poland and Soviet Union, from the Sudetenland, and from Hungary, Yugoslavia, and Romania, was authorized by the Allies in Potsdam 

message: In an attempt to avoid "extraneous commentary", maybe someone will step up and announce precisely which "Germany" was reunited in 1990?  Here's a clue: it wasn't the "Germany" of, for example, April, 1945, namely the Germany which the victors considered as precisely defined by Germany's 1937 borders (Note: the Germany within the 1937 borders was the Germany that the WW2 victors used as the only template from which to carve up "Germany").  Did the victors create a new "Germany" in the summer of 1945, namely "Occupation Germany"? ("Occupation Germany" was the Germany of the 1937 borders minus all German land east of the Oder-Neisse boundary).  The outer boundaries of "Occupation Germany" ended up in 1990 coinciding precisely with the "reunited" Federal Republic of Germany (Saarland notwithstanding).  If the victors did in fact create a new "Germany", then that 1945 created "Germany" (AKA "Occupation Germany") only existed until 1949 (when the separate countries of West Germany (BRD) and East Germany (DDR) were announced to the world) . . . so, is it the case that the "Germany" reunited in 1990 was the "Germany" that only existed in history between the years 1945 & 1949 (AKA "Occupation Zone Germany", or stated another way, "the four occupation zones of Germany taken together")?  BTW: There wasn't much "unity" in the 1945 to 1949 "Germany", since the 4 victors were all busy going their separate ways ... until Bizonia happened, which was followed by Trizonia . . . but Trizonia never reached across into the Soviet Zone . . . so, the 1945 to 1949 "Germany" (of a precise land area that had never existed before being precisely defined as "Germany") was somewhat schizophrenic. . . .  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 05:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Exactly Which Germany Was "Reunited" in 1990? 

message: This reads like just another grievance article written by German nationalists (or crypto-nationalists) who cannot get their views accepted in the German-language wikipedia. What would be the parallel article in de.wikipedia? Feketekave (talk) 11:48, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why don't you jump in & point out specific examples of limitations in the article?  Stating facts in so doing would be an asset.  Use of the phrase "reads like" would be a good lead in to a precise explanation, using facts and examples, supportive of that position.  For example, a comparison between Potsdam authorized population transfers and the Nuremberg Trials' realization that ALL population transfers are war crimes (an explanation how the thinking changed in that dated interim would help).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 18:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Propaganda in en.wikipedia.org 

message: 95 % of this article dealt with 1945-1990 history, the lead section dealt exclusively with Cold War history and not modern history (the last 20 years). For this reason, I removed the very small section about "Germany today", which should be a separate article on German post 1990 history. The same solution is chosen for other countries, like History of Poland (1945–1989). Also the German Wikipedia has an article on :de:Geschichte Deutschlands (seit 1990) (History of Germany (since 1990)). Urban XII (talk) 13:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: 95% is a weird calculation IMO, and if anything, it should have been expanded, not deleted.--Nero the second (talk) 14:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Why should two completely different historical eras be covered in the same article, when they are covered in separate articles for other countries that weren't even divided? This is a matter of consistency and following established standards. Urban XII (talk) 15:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

text: There is no standard related to the matter, you will find many articles called "history of [country] since 1945", look around--Nero the second (talk) 15:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: This is an article about 1945-1990 history

message: :History of Germany (1945–1990) → History of Germany since 1945 — The article has had this name for a very long time, until Urban XII moved it with the intention of creating a History of Germany since 1990 that, as of this writing, does not exist, and deleted the section "Germany today" in the process. I want the article back to the old name, at least until Urban proves he has enough material for a new article, and of course the intention to create it.--Nero the second (talk) 15:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Move request

message: The article says "By 1947 it is estimated that 400,000,000[dubious – discuss] Germans (both civilians and POWs) were being used as forced labor by the U.S., France, the UK and the Soviet Union."  The 400 million figure is absurdly high considering the population of Germany is about 82 million, and was comparable in 1947, certainly never anywhere close to 400 million.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.44.186 (talk) 20:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Forced labor reparations 

message: The lead section is too long, biased against East Germany and does not summarise the main body of the article.Nescio vos (talk) 20:38, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lead section 

message: I've noticed a few spelling and grammar errors that I am taking it upon myself to fix.  They are very small and don't affect what is stated in the article at all, so they really aren't worth listing here.  If you want to know what they were check the prior revisions.  Levontaun (talk) 13:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minor Grammar and Spelling Corrections 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: While reviewing this article I came across the following passage in the lead: "Seven million prisoners and forced laborers left Germany, most of whom died either during their emigration of starvation, due to harsh conditions, or because they were worked to death. Over 10 million German-speaking refugees arrived in Germany from other countries in Central and Eastern Europe." This is hopelessly vague - German prisoners? Former prisoners of Nazi Germany? What does this have to do with the information about the German-speaking refugees? I can tell whoever wrote the passage had a specific idea in mind, but I'm unable to parse what that idea is without diving into the article - I think that's generally considered a cardinal sin for a lead. Jacotto (talk) 17:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ambiguity in lead 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Only camps in Poland are listed. The most terrible crimes took place in Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia.Xx236 (talk) 06:51, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The Potsdam Declaration stated - the Allies accepted Stalin's genocidal politics and instructed EE nations to be gentle. Xx236 (talk) 06:55, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

text: At some time a subsection about German children (Norway) existed and was removed. Xx236 (talk) 06:59, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

text: The rapes are described in a different subsection. Both rapes and expulsions and forced labor were parts of Stalin's poltics.Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Biased image of the expulsion 

message: Some sections are referenced, the other ones aren't. Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unreferenced sections

message: What is a "people's congress"?Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  A series of people's congresses were called  

message: stripped of its war gains and lost territories in the east to Poland and the Soviet Union - Sudetenland doesn't belong to either group.Xx236 (talk) 07:59, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: , well technically, Sudetenland was not actually part of Nazi Germany at the time.  15:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sudetenland ? 

message: I have tried to tidy up these sections and issues - which were formerly confused, and consequently inaccurate. For the most part relying on numbers from Nicholas Stargardt, The German War and R.M. Douglas, 'Orderly and Humane'; which I take to represent a current scholarly consensus. I realise that elements of these sections of the article have also been criticised as biased (though I am not sure which, as the discussions above on this talk page are old, and the article now is much different).  Happy to discuss and amend further. TomHennell (talk) 09:44, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Occupation zones; eastern territories; expulsions 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I think there should be a separate page for the inner relations, as is for example :de:Innerdeutsche Beziehungen.--194.30.48.189 (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inner German relations 

message: In the article, it says there were 4 divisions of Germany after WW2. However, technically, there are 7 divisions: the American one, the British one, the French one, the Norwegian one, the two parts given to Poland and the Soviet Union. If you don't count territory given to others, then there are 5 divisions.  15:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Based on what I can find, it looks like the Norwegian troops taking part of the Allied occupation were stationed in 1947 in the British zone and so did not have their own distinct zone created immediately at the war's end. I think that is why a lot of sources describe Germany being divided into four parts post war, into the American, British, French and Soviet occupation zones.JMM12345 (talk) 19:34, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Four divisions??? 

message: Under the country comparison chart, in the Main religions section for East Germany, it says, 
"70.0% Irreligion
25.0% Evangelical Church in Germany
10.6% Roman Catholic"
Added together, that should total pretty close to 100% considering that there are only three numbers and that they are all rounded to the tenth of a percent, however, by my math, that is more than 105%.JMM12345 (talk) 19:26, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Numbers don't add up