Talk:Top hat

message: Does anyone have a primary source for the story about the first top hat causing a riot? I have found a few other sites telling the same story, but they all seem to be quoting each other, and I can't find any sign of the supposed 'contemporary newspaper report' which would presumably form the evidence for this story.
Absent any real evidence, the story sounds highly improbable. Why would people riot at the sight of a hat? They're not that scary.
:I have removed the following text from the article, because it is uncited:
:According to a local news paper, he caused a riot in the streets of London. People are said to have run in terror, dogs barking, women fainting. The crowd broke the arm of an errand boy as they ran past. Hetherington was charged in court with wearing "a tall structure having a shining luster calculated to frighten timid people", and was fined £50. 
:--Srleffler (talk) 05:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Some editors express their feeling about a supposed apocriphicity without any positive reference to an historian sharing their analysis. They note some web sites are not valid references or some are uncited. Granted, but what about the numerous references to the contemporary press, such as the Times of January 16, 1797 or the Hatter's Journal of January 10, 1797  reporting that "John Hetherington, haberdasher of the Strand, was arraigned before the Lord Mayor for wearing a silk hat"?  What is the problem here? Racconish (talk) 07:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I too believed it until I did some research: see John Hetherington for details. Basically, the claim that the story appeared in The Times is wholly bogus. Also, the Hatters' Gazette only began publication in 1878. Salmanazar (talk) 14:20, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

text: Makes more sense. Thanks Racconish (talk) 15:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Source

message: There is a painting done by Heironymus Bosch between 1485 and 1490 that I could swear depicts a man wearing a top hat. Anyone know anything about this? This article gives the origin of the hat a much later date. A rather low-res download of the painting can be found at http://abcgallery.com/B/bosch/bosch32.html The man in question is at the bottom left-hand corner. Themill 2006 (UTC)
It's only a small point, but should this be hyphenated?
  No, indeed, it should not be hyphenated.
:: Moved to Top hat (headgear) --Mmartins 10:50, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Bosch painting

message: Notability should establish a permanent association to wearing a top hat, i.e. more than the occasional fashion statement.  The notable wearer should have their own working Wikepedia entry, with a specific written or characteristic visual reference on the page to back up their inclusion here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by TBliss (talk • contribs) 10:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Notable Wearers

message: I recently purchased a top hat from an antiqe store, it came in the box and the hat was in perfect condition apparently never worn, and also only 1 of 12 made. This specific hat was made for James Thelwell & co. Melbourne. It was made by Tress & co. London. It also has written on the box ' prize medals Awarded to 
      Tress & co. London
      Cold medals, Paris 1878
      Sydney & calcutta '
I was wondering if any one could give me any aditional information on the company who made the hat and also who bought the Hat and in what year it was made.  I appreciate anybodys input into my enquiry and hopefully can find the information i am seeking. MS —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.176.228.61 (talk) 09:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Note to this and any future visitors who are curious about the values of their hats, or seek any other information about it: Wikipedia is NOT a forum. It is an encyclopedia. Would you write to the publishers of the Encyclopedia Britannica and ask them how much your hat is worth? I would hope not. Please do not post such questions here. Thank you. Bricology (talk) 08:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Was wondering if any body had any information 

message: see subject. needs disambig. Tkjazzer (talk) 01:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It was a joke. Apple did very well financially, and some reporter joked that they bought a top hat and a monocle. Somebody misunderstood these as the names of two companies.--Srleffler (talk) 06:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  apple bought tophat, where is the wiki article on this tophat? 

message: September 10th has seen a series of Vandalistic edits, have attempted to undo them but have neither the time nor the patience.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.110.152 (talk) 22:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vandalism 

message: The entry reads "...the second hand top hat market is very lively, with antique models in wearable condition being sold for more than £5000 ($10'000)."  First, the claim is un-sourced. Second, the dollar amount is written incorrectly, and the Pound hasn't been worth $2 for a very long time. Third, as a long-time dealer in high-end vintage clothing, I don't believe that this valuation is even remotely true. Even a cursory look through eBay's past auctions shows that most "wearable" antique top hats sell for between $50 and $200; it is just about unheard of for an antique top hat in even the finest condition and with its original case, to sell for more than $500 in a high-end retail vintage clothing store. The only way that a hat would sell for considerably more than that would be if its former owner was famous. I'm going to replace the claim with one that is easily verifiable. Bricology (talk) 09:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Description and values 

message: "During the 19th century the top hat developed from a fashion into a symbol of urban respectability, and this was assured when Prince Albert started wearing them in 1850; the rise in popularity of the top hat led to a decline in beaver hats..."
"top hat" and "beaver hat" are not mutually exclusive.  What type of top hat lead to the decline of the beaver top hat?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.186.198.29 (talk) 19:21, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  beaver hats 

message: 'Not to be confused with a Fez, Fez' are cool' - A very important point, but are they often confused? Perhaps a seperate article on the similarities and differences of the two headresses would be more suitable.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.200.92 (talk) 11:35, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Whoever wrote this clearly loves Matt Smith (Doctor Who) a little too much 

message: Does wikipedia have any information about those cartoonish cloth top hats? They're intentionally oversized, and usually of caricature dimensions. The most common kind is like a real-life version worn by the Cat in the Hat, but others are wider and don't have stripes. They're popular around holidays and as souvenirs and a quick search isn't showing a mention of them on wikipedia.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.254.80.49 (talk) 02:14, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Large cloth top hats? 

message: I think the section on Crime and Punishment misinterprets the source.  The particular passage in the novel is here.  Raskolnikov's concern seems not to be that a top hat would be out of place on the street in 1860's Russia, but that his particular hat- a once-fine top hat that has been thoroughly worn out- will attract attention since he is dressed in a fairly ragged fashion, more appropriate to someone wearing a flat cap or a furazhka (peaked cap worn by working-class people).  In either case, the cited source doesn't establish that the top hat was out of fashion in Russia in the 1860's; it merely observes that one translator chose to indicate in a footnote that Zimmerman's was a hat maker in Saint Petersburg. --69.181.117.168 (talk) 12:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Crime and Punishment 

message: Someone keeps insisting on adding the Hetherington story, which is unwarranted, frankly a bit silly and has no place in this article. I will seek semi-protection for this article if it occurs again, because the Wikipedia article about him on its talk page discusses the "pseudo-history" of the story anyway. Making attempts to name the inventor of the top hat is a fruitless endeavour. I have seen engravings of gentlemen wearing short top hats that date to the 1400s! Djathinkimacowboy 06:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Stricken above comment, for which I apologise. I have re-inserted a reference to Hetherington because I see why it belongs. It simply doesn't want belabouring. Djathinkimacowboy 06:54, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[John Hetherington]] 

message: Removed sentence:
:One of the earliest references to the top hat is in a 1747 etching (part of the series Industry and Idleness) by William Hogarth, depicting the Lord Mayor of London in a carriage wearing a top hat.
Just in case anyone is curious as to why I removed this sentence, I went and checked the engraving out here and it's definitely not a top-hat, but a Lord Mayor's Cap. See illustration from Parker's Heraldry. Mabalu (talk) 13:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Top hat in 1747 engraving? 

message: Hi, as I've seen the French "Chapeu-claque" used in songs and whatnot for a collapsible top hat, I was expecting to find it here as an alternate name. Someone want to add that? -- CarlJohanSveningsson (talk) 17:50, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Naming - chapeu-claque

message: So I did some research of my own after a claim cited solely to a Facebook status update was posted by someone whose user name had the same name as the business running the Facebook page. As we know from the infamous John Hetherington story, there is a precedent for highly dubious stories connected to this particular form of headgear. Setting aside whether or not the unidentified person claiming themselves as an "established expert" is or isn't, anyone can post any old crap on Facebook or self-published blogs and then claim that this makes them an expert. We have no way of knowing whether they are or aren't At the very best such a claim is original research. Here are my findings:
* There WAS a pre-existing claim in the article that the collapsible tophat was invented in 1812 before Antoine Gibus perfected the design. I did find hits for the phrase "an elastic round hat" - , , and  - which indicates the patent expired in 1825. At no point does anyone specify that this elastic round hat, which may be "made out of beaver, silk or other materials," is definitely something we would consider a top-hat. I agree it sounds like one, but the only other source I can find is in a book by Edward de Bono. de Bono states:
::"Elastic made from rubber was an invention of the 19th century, although the word was current earlier; thus an advertisement of 1812 for 'an elastic round hat' turns out to consist of a patented steel spring inside the crown which collapsed the fabric for carrying under the arm."
* Although this does appear to describe what we would later call a gibus, de Bono certainly doesn't come out and call it a top-hat. He's cautious - with very good reason, because the patent doesn't even specify whether it's a man's or a woman's hat. Another writer does draw a link between this "elastic round hat" and the top hat.
* At no point do any of the patent descriptions specify that this is a male or female hat. At the time women wore very high crowned hats too, so it could easily be an unisex design. My personal feeling is that the ribbons in the extended description (quoted in the article) sound like a female detail, but that is my own thoughts. All we can really do is cite the existence of a 1812 patent for a folding hat that at least one published author assumed describes an early version of the collapsible top-hat. Many things were patented that never went into production, so the existence of a 1812 patent does not necessarily mean Dollman hats were put into production. Mabalu (talk) 03:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Thomas Dollman and collapsible hat patents 

message: The Gat looks like a very far cousin, IMO. May it be added in the See Also section? (Andrea2016228 (talk) 17:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  BMK (talk) 17:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gat? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article refers to a "stovetop" hat. I cannot find a reference to a "stovetop" hat elsewhere. It might be an unfortunate blend of "stovepipe" and "top hat." Thank you. 8.19.2018  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.18.74 (talk) 20:11, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Stovetop" 

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thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion