Talk:The Emperor's New Clothes

message: It's hard to tell someone that they "don't get it" but this story is not a euphemism (look up the word) or a zen koan. The story is a folktale of a recognized type. The phrase is a metaphor or an allusion, but not a euphemism or a koan. A principal folktale theme, if not the principal point, is the "truth seen by the eyes of a child" and spoken by a person too naive to understand the group pressures to see something in a way contrary to obvious appearance. Secondary themes are how vanity makes one vulnerable to being conned, and how rarely a dependent minister or courtier will tell a ruler the truth if it's potentially bad news. And--- style tip, here--- never, never, never use "impacted" as a verb unless you want to knock 30 points off your perceived IQ-- it's bureaucratese at its worst and does not belong in a witty folktale. Wiki-linking "no clothes" to "Naked" is like sniggering at the word-- how old are you? I like my concise version better, but I am of course biased. How about letting it live here for awhile?
:Now, here's an editor after my own heart. As for me, I particularly enjoy "This remark impacted everyone's mind" because it is so transparently a second-thought improvement on the writer's original: "This remark blew everyone's mind." This entry has been written without rereading Andersen's tale, apparently. Compare what similar boobies are up to at Rapunzel. If I sound peevish, it's because a good edit is an improvement, not simply a change in the text. A good rule at Wikipedia is Avoid unnecessary interference.--Wetman 03:21, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about you, but I personally think one should present many interpretations of a story and allow the reader to choose for themselves and not interpreting it for the reader, especially for stories with a pith as these. Though looking back, I suppose my Zen koan stuff (or as Nuhh-huh no-quite-subtly calls it, "crapola") was a bit excessive. I would argue however that my writing of "impacted" is merely de-idiomisation of "blew mind" for any non-native-English speakers dropping by. -- Znode 2004-11-08T21:46-08:00  If someone is tone-deaf, how do you explain they hit the wrong note? Your language sounds like it would if I tried to play the piano, but if you can't hear it I don't know how to convince you. Alteripse 13:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Some criticism of style

message: I don't know how to put this into encyclopedic terms well, but I always got a different idea out of this story. I thought it was sort of pointing out that people will sometimes pretend to understand something, or otherwise deceive, in order to look better to others. That sounds vague, so I'll use an example. // On the playground, Joe tells an inside joke to a group of his friends. Tom, who has just started to hang out with this clique, laughs along with everyone else as if he understood the joke, lest he feel alienated. // Can anyone do anything with that? :/
I agree that it's pretty juvenile to have a link to the "Naked" page here. If anyone wants to read up on that, I'm sure they can.
And I definitely think the original Danish title of the story should be included. --BDD 01:46, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Different Theme?

message: I love this fairy tale, as it provides such a useful metaphor about gullibility, but I still want to point out lapses of logic in the story.  (1) The emperor should have sent his “trusted men” in to look at the cloth “blind” (in the sense of scientific trials) without first telling them the theory about the cloth.  He would then have to decide whether his men were stupid or the cloth merchants were swindlers.  (2) If the cloth was invisible to stupid people, he could be sure that he would be seen naked by some of his subjects when he wore the clothes in public.  (3) Who “allowed [the emperor] to be dressed in the clothes for a procession through town”?  The “trusted men,” who couldn’t see the clothes themselves?  Were the cloth merchants still around?  They should have expected to be found to be swindlers when the clothes were seen by a large number of people.  (4) No underwear?  (5)  No sense of touch? – Espa, 9 October 2006
:You'd have a point if the story literally referred to non-extistent clothes. The major flaw in my mind, when the kid rumbles the game, everyones eyes are suddenly opened to the obvious... I think not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.161.11.199 (talk) 05:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just about gullibility... it's also about pretentiousness. How many people turn a blind eye to something just to "look good"? That, to me, is what this story is about. It's about , among other things, allowing yourself to pay $700 for a pair of trousers just because the fashionista tell you they will make you "cool" if you wear them.68.148.153.28 (talk) 03:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, it's about pretentiousnes, but also about social conformism, the pressure to accept and buy into certain ideas, concepts, supposed facts or narratives to be allowed to stay within the groupp, to be able to make friends and make a career, or just to remain socially acceptable. Andersen's tale is a sophisticated look at how opinions, "truths" and fashionable theories can be manipulated and given a false sense of weight because of having powerful patrons or slick propagandists behind them. And it's a modern tale, too. Both the emperor and his subjects want acceptance and social status: if the story had taken place in a society where the monarch could simply threaten to kill everyone who said any little thing against him, it wouldn't have been as effective. 83.254.129.165 (talk) 23:53, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Logic? 

message: Is there a logic fallacy associated with this story?  It sounds like it may be a type of ad hominem argument ("it was invisible to anyone who was either stupid or not fit for his position") --George100 11:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Logical fallacy?

message: I am questioning the appropriateness of this section for inclusion here.  First, it appears to be "selling" Tatar's book and secondly, the entire section is inadequately sourced. It's only source directs the reader to a site that requires a subscription to read Hollis' article. I've tried removing the section only to have it returned by one insistent editor that it be included here.  I think the section is neither scholarly nor encyclopedic and merits deletion. Please weigh in on this. Thanks! Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 03:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I just merged the section into Commentaries, since the two authors seem pretty notable, and their assessment on the story could give more in-depth analysis. However, I don't think  inserted the section to advocate Maria Tatar or sell her book. Please assume good faith. Pro. Tatar is quite a notable figure in children's literature, and news sources inform that her 2007 book gives extensive view on this story. However, it should be mentioned what she says about it in her book.--Caspian blue 16:47, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The Hollis Robbins info and citation leads one to a subscription site.  I'll move all to a "Further reading" section with a warning for the reader that a subscription is required. The Tatar line has been incorporated elsewhere. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 17:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I disagree with your assessment on sources only accessible for those who pay the fee. Except two books, your sources do not provide preview on Google books, so can not be reached to people who do not live in North America/UK or could not afford to buy the book by paying expensive additional international shipping fees. You can ask Critic11 to provide direct quotes from the journal, but in my opinion, it is the same condition that readers should assume good faith on your and his sources.--Caspian blue 18:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Caspainblue, sources I've cited in the Emperor article are available for free at public libraries and my sources are not used inappropriately. I'm not directing someone to buy the book or pay a fee to view it. Your argument is something to direct to the administration for policy review but, at this point in time, WP does not permit citations that direct the reader to pay-per-view sites.  It smacks of an inappropriate interest on WP's part. Critic11, I'm not taking revenge on anyone or anything. I'm only concerned with tip-top work on the Emperor article. Directing its readers to pay-per-view sites and inadequately souced WP articles is not tip-top work. Best! Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 20:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Kathyrncelestewright, no, you're wrong. The public library to which you refer means only libraries in US, and UK, other English speaking world and not in Asia or elsewhere. Even specific or narrowly focused books in English can not be easily accessible to people living outside big cities in the first group of the countries. You forget that many readers of English Wikipedia come from non-English speaking world. They have to assume good faith on sources that can not be reached to their area as I translated many articles to other language Wikipedia. However, you seem to think that readers would be in the same condition with which you have. I'm also not a native English speaker, but use English Wikipedia as a reader to get information on interested areas. According to your logic, JSTOR sources could not be used for citations, since it only requires membership. However, academic sources from the site are abundantly used within Wikipedia. Project MUSE is also a similar to JSTOR. Since Wikipedia is managed by anonymous editors, we have to assume good faith, so I assume good faith on your citation even though I can not access to many of them. I'm certain that you misread our citation policy. The policy/guideline does not prohibit to use offline book sources, or sources that requires specific membership. If it has, please show me the link.Caspian blue 20:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

text: I'm also reminding you that you're unnecessarily engaging in edit warring (perhaps, you exceed 3RR already), so please discuss and get consensus instead of reverting.--Caspian blue 20:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Sites that may require payment are explicitly allowed: Wikipedia:V#Access_to_sources.  Many public libraries have subscriptions to such sites, so they may be accessed at the library or sometimes remotely if you have a library card.John Z (talk) 21:33, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Caspian asked me to comment here. He knows I do not always say what's expected, but in this case he is certainly 100% correct. References can come from pay sources to, from print or online, as long as they are available in some manner to the general public. References in Project Muse are actually to the journals whose electronic versions are distributed by Project Muse, and should be written as a link to the printed journal with an additional convenience link to the  Project Muse version. Every journal in this collection is available in print in a large number of libraries, several hundred at least, including many libraries with  public access, just as for other print journals.  Even the online version is available free from some public libraries. Every article in every journal in this collection is available, usually a no charge, through the Interlibrary loan system of any good public or academic library. Given the print journal reference, any librarian in any good library should be able to figure out how to provide access to a copy--there are a multitude of ways, but the starting point is the print citation.  BTW, the same exactly goes for JSTOR, except that JSTOR provides only backfiles. The source is the journal article--JSTOR (or MUSE) is just the producer & distributor of the electronic version.    DGG ( talk ) 21:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Recent scholarship" section 

message: The commentaries section should not be used to compare/contrast scholars' views on the tale. Let each scholar speak for him/herself in a summarized paragraph or two of his/her views and then allow the reader to compare/contrast and draw conclusions for her/himself. Editorial comparing/contrasting smacks of OR. Please be careful of using loaded words like "complex" unless they are cited to a source.  Such words smack of POV. Thanks! Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: IYHO, Tatar and Robbins are the "two primary scholars on the tale." OK, you're entitled to an opinon.  But it is nowhere established EXCEPT in your opinion that these two are the "primary scholars" on this tale. This is POV. Enter a summary on Robbins's essay AFTER the Wullschlager paragraph and BEFORE the Tatar paragraph without offering original research comparisons and contrasts.  Let the reader draw his or her own conclusions. I can't do the Robbins essay because it's $20.  I'll check out the library next week. Let the taxpayer foot the bill on this one. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 16:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

text: Well, she is, isn't she? Why is pointing out her qualifications and credentials to speak on this subject "inappropriate"? It's been done with Tatar and Wullschlager. You're not challenging that stuff. Her credentials are being established for the reader.  Otherwise she just appears as somebody out of the blue who has decided to write an essay. Return that material. I'd do it myself except I'll probably be violating some "Go Directly to Jail" rule for doing so.  As I said earlier, I'm not going to get into edit warring with you on this article.  Let the chips fall where they may. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 16:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparing/contrasting scholarly views 

message: Someone could if someone chose enter a summary of Robbins's article in the commentaries section.  I can't because the article costs $20 from Jstor or Muse (I forget which one).  Anyway I can't afford it and IMHO $20 is kinda stiff for ten or eleven pages.  I would feel uncomfortable getting it "for free" from my alma mater because somebody somewhere is going to foot the bill.  Like bookstores, Jstor and Muse are in business to make money by selling the works of others and trying to get stuff "for free" from them is not my style. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 15:41, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hollis Robbins essay 

message: I'm having trouble with the Naomi Wood entry: "Naomi Wood challenges Robbins's reading, arguing that before the World Trade Center attacks of 2001, "Robbins's argument might seem merely playful, anti-intuitive, and provocative."   Wood concludes: "Perhaps the truth of "The Emperor's New Clothes" is not that the child's truth is mercifully free of adult corruption, but that it recognizes the terrifying possibility that whatever words we may use to clothe our fears, the fabric cannot protect us from them."  Who is Naomi Wood? What is Marvel & Tales? Is it an academic journal or what? Quotes from any commentator should be paraphrased as much as possible. Your entries must be developed into paragraphs. Right now they appear as not much more than bulleted entries on a "List of Andersen Commentators and What They're Saying in Quotation Marks".  WP doesn't encourage one or two sentence paragraphs.   Try to develop your contributions into multiple sentence paragraphs.  The World Trade Center must be explained. Some may not know what the World Trade Center is (children or young teens for example) and what it has to do with "The Emperor's New Clothes". A wikilink is not enough.  When this article goes to GA, a reviewer is going to ask these questions so best get them out of the way now. Best~ Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 20:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I found this on Google: "Naomi Wood teaches children's and Victorian literature at Kansas State University". Is this correct? I'm going to stick it in the article because people are reading it at this time and will want to know.  If it's incorrect, remove it. Kathyrncelestewright (talk) 00:20, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Naomi Wood 

message: Please note that the nominator User:Kathyrncelestewright has been indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the GAN banner as it's been a while and no one has agreed to resolve issues brought up during the review. Mm40 (talk) 19:58, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Note re GA Nomination for GA reviewer 

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thread_title: File:The Emperor's New Clothes DSC09958.jpg Nominated for Deletion

message: The Emperor does not hire swindlers, he hires weavers.  They are also swindlers but nobody hires swindlers, or they wouldn't be swindlers. 128.90.88.205 (talk) 21:27, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Weavers v. Swindlers 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I was just listening to the soundtrack, and a phrase by Thomas Jefferson in his song with Aaron Burr and James Madison ('Washington on Your Side') seems to reference this quite explicitly. Actually, the song is the very reason why I bumped into this article in the first place. In the song, Thomas Jefferson smugly murmurs that 'The Emperor has no clothes' in reference to Hamilton and his shameless partnership with George Washington. Either way, hopefully someone can make the edit, if they believe it's relevant. 
189.159.194.10 (talk) 05:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reference in the play 'Hamilton' 

message: * The lesson is that the fear of consequences will often lead people to publicly agree to things they don’t believe in for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, the “emperor” will always proudly continue the lie despite his own knowledge of the truth and being publicly outed.
Most readers would rather see something like this than some long winded, abstruse gobbledygook from "scholars".
We could also give examples from history of ideas that everyone knew were false but no one had the courage to point out. --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Normal interpretation