Category talk:Orthodox Jewish communities

message: Since the bulk of entries so far are cities, or isolated concentrations of Jews within cities, it seems superfluous to identify every single neighbourhood in Jerusalem as an "Orthodox Jewish community," as well as every religious settlement in Israel as an "Orthodox Jewish community" (e.g. Efrat). We already have a Category:Neighbourhoods in Jerusalem to cover places like Mea Shearim, Kiryat Mattersdorf, Ramot, Neve Yaakov, etc., and a Category:Israeli settlements to cover places like Efrat. (Perhaps there should be a sub-category under Israeli settlements to include religious Israeli settlements, but that is for another talk page). Yoninah 16:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Likewise, it is virtually redundant to cat any city in Israel (except El'ad - the only orthodox city), or large cities like Antwerp?! --Shuki 21:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition of "Orthodox Jewish communities"

message: Bathurst Street, specially north of Lawrence Avenue is the main residence of most of Toronto's large Orthodox Jewish population.  I think it should be added to the list.
:Bathurst street is a very long street extending from the southern end of Toronto, to quite a bit north of Toronto. I believe most of Bathurst is outside of Toronto. The section of the street that has a mostly Jewish population is difficult to estimate, but it's ballpark 10%, the number of Orthodox Jews as a percentage of Jews is less than 10%. Calling Bathurst Street an Orthodox Jewish Community is to my mind a little strange. The bulk of Orthodox Jews lie in a few pockets around Bathurst street, mostly between Eglington and Wilson, and another area outside of Toronto, in Thornhill. The rest of the street has other pockets of ethnicity, so we can just as well call Bathurst a Jamaican community, or a Portuguese community. There is no question that Bathurst street is significant to Orthodox Jews in Toronto, as many of the stores that cater to the community are located on Bathurst, but this is in the section from Lawrence to Wilson, a relatively small area.  --ArmadilloFromHell 03:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Toronto's Bathurst Street 

message: Now that the whole deletion debate is over, perhaps it would be best simply to move this to a new name that will provoke less controversy in the future, but remain equally useful.
I suggest, as someone else already did in the deletion debate: :category:Locations of Orthodox Jewish Communities.
I also suggest that this only refer to diaspora communities. In Israel this becomes somewhat tedious, because there is not a single Israeli city, small or large, without an Orthodox Jewish community of a size that would be considered highly significant in the diaspora. Perhaps a separate list or category could refer to Israeli cities and towns that are largely or entirely Orthodox. Dovi 07:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: While I think that certain people were deliberately misinterpreting the category using its name as an excuse, we can only avoid further confusion by renaming the category. In addition to :Category:Locations of Orthodox Jewish Communities, I'd also suggest :Category:Locations with Orthodox Jewish Communities, :Category:Localities with Orthodox Jewish Communities, :Category:Places with Orthodox Jewish Communities, or any other variation that gets across the point that the area describes a place that HAS an Orthodox Jewish community, not that it IS an Orthodox Jewish community. The next question is the wording of the description. For Irish-American communities, census data can be used to set a strict cutoff. Because religion is not tracked by the Census Bureau, and Jewish population surveys are rarely at the level of individual municipalities or neighborhoods, it would be impossible to say "an Orthodox Jewish community is one with X% of the population or includes Y people". Can we tighten the description in the category to make it as objective as possible? Agreed that including Israeli communities only confuses this category. Do we need to name it :Category:Diaspora locations with Orthodox Jewish Communities? Alansohn 13:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Alansohn: The words "Locations" "Localities" and "Places" in your suggestions are not really helpful. And the word "Diasporah" is not a common word to use in this context either. And for Israel, the list does not point out every town or community, just those that have, or are known to have, or are famous for, their true and notable Orthodox communities. I think you are perhaps being over-anxious or over-solicitous and trying to pre-empt something, or please people, that is not neeeded for now. The fact that there was a vote and that it was agreed that this category can stay is a vote of confidnce in the category as it appears and works right now (even though its title may be perfected sometime down the line by a true wordsmith.) If there are articles in this category that don't or should not be here, then they should be examined and removed if needed. But for now, there are relatively few places on this Earth with major notable Orthodox communities in them, and the category, for now, is thorough and prtecise enough. No need to open new debates when we have just resolved one important one. Thanks. 15:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I have never had a "what will the Goyim think" mentality, but does the current title for the category project a possible meaning of "only orthodox" or "majority orthodox" (or even "Orthodox controlled") that contradicts the intended meaning of "has within it an organized Orthodox Jewish community"? This CfD was no gimme, and early on it looked like it might be far closer than when it ended. I think the wording I placed in the category is a decent stab at defining what is an Orthodox Jewish community (next stop should be to define "Who is a Jew"). Those who are familiar with Orthodoxy will know what it means if they see a place included in this category, but does everybody else understand the meaning, and can a rename obviate the problem. "Disapora" was just a throwaway, but the "Locations of" prefix (or its variants) may be worth consideration. This whole debacle leading up to the CfD started with Cedarhurst, New York, which would meet anyone's definition of the term Orthodox Jewish community, but in which a non-Jewish resident felt that the category "labeled" the entire village as being Orthodox. Alansohn 15:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Alansohn: Let's not get grandiose here, we are not out to define anything here, least of all "Who is a Jew?" But it's a known fact of reality that there are specfic places on the face of this planet that can be described as "Orthodox Jewish communities" especially since Orthodox Jews tend to live close to each other as they cluster up to share resources that they cannot do without, like yeshivas and day schools, Bait Yaakovs, mikvas, kosher food stores, shulls within walking distance on Shabbat, eruvs, etc. The "Cedarhurst thing" was an emotional outburst by a loner, reflecting more a phenomenon that unfortunately takes place in real life all the time, when "Haredim" or "Orthodox Jews" are seen as "invading" neighborhoods that were previously devoid of noticable Orthodox Jews. Another name for this phenomenon is basically "soft core anti-Semitism" so I wouldn't worry about it, altho I wouldn't be surprised that it pops up again. The article once had another name and was subsequently focused and renamed to its present one (perhaps by you, I can't remember) and I think that you have added enough qualifying explanations on the page to make it very clear what the scope of this categeory is or is not. I was thinking, and this is very important, that the category is about communities and I think it's an excellent choice of names because it put the focus on what we are dealing here, namely, "Orthodox Jewish communities" and not cities or towns or locations or whatnot where they may be geographically, but only on the community aspect. So communities, is all we are focused on here and not on the "implication" or such-like worry if they include, or surround, or outnumber their surrounding host towns or cities or localities etc. IZAK 08:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Yes, we can focus on "communities" and they are communities and etc. etc.  But that's like saying "New York City" should be in the category "Historic Theaters."  It shouldn't.  It contains a (or many) historic theaters.  Similarly, many of these are not Orthodox Jewish communities.  They contain Orthodox Jewish communities.  If we were to use your definition of communities, than appropriate articles belonging in the category would be "The Orthodox Jewish Community of Somewheresville," not Somewheresville itself.--Inonit 23:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rename?