Talk:Kvens of the past/Archive 1

message: Some related discussions are at Talk:Kven (historical), and of course a full arsenal of quarrels are at Talk:Kven Suedois 17:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Certain related talks

message: Contents of articles (now redirects) presently at Kvens (historical) and Kvenland (a fork of this article) have today 4 July 2006 got merged into this article. Edit histories of those texts are available at said page addresses:  and . Suedois 17:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Problem with redirections is that search engines, like Google, now ignore Wikipedia's KVENLAND page completely. --Drieakko 06:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some mergers 

message: You write: Easiest explanation is that there (valley of Kainuu river) was a later Karelian/Savonian settlement on the area that eventually started to speak Swedish, using the name "Kainuu" like they did on all areas in the north." Well, many researchers claim that the west Finns were the first settlers of the Torne valley, after the Saami. You seem to argue that Karelians were first in the Kainuu river valley. There is a cultural connection between Kainulaiset and todays Tornedalian finns in that sense that these along with the Saami are the only ethnic groups in Sweden who are rein deer herders; as the Finns in Finnish Torne valley are. There are 8 Saami villages in this region, including the south part of the Kainuu river, where they have not been speaking Finnish during centuries; still they are rein deer herders and members of a Saami village: Kalix Saami village. It is an indication of some older relationships. Were they not West Finns? Why do the Tornedalians use mie and sie and not west Finnish very frequent pronouns. How could they change typical very resistent pronouns to Karelian terms.--84.216.55.188 06:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Western Finns most likely settled there first. Old Finnish name "Kaallasväylä" which Swedes adopted from them as "Kalixälv" and which they had adopted from Sami, seems like a good evidence on that. However, Karelians were already then (around 12th and 13th century) active in the north, and Karelian influences are found in the local dialects around the Bay of Bothnia. Savonians (predominantly of Karelian origin) came last, around the 16th century. --Drieakko 15:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Also this shift in names is easiest explained as a result of heavy Savonian immigration from the 16th century onwards. --Drieakko 15:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The first Finnish settlers of Torne valley 

message: Articles would be needed for Origin of the name Kven and Origin of the name Kainuu. --Drieakko 13:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins of the names Kven and Kainuu 

message: I believe that Drieakko wants to prove that there was a Kingdom of Finland before the Swedish King went to Finland and conquered the western parts in the name of God. This is his political position which he wants to impose on Kvenland and on history. And as always these kind of efforts are hidden in phraseology of unbiased, neutral, objective reasoning. If he had not this political agenda - this is not a theory - in mind he would be more open to search for another position. However, if there had been a Kingdom of Finland we would surely noticed this in the Russian and Swedish doscuments, as well as other sources. Drieakko is one of the new neo-nationalists of Finland who have some kind of aversions toward Sweden.--84.216.55.247 14:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Drieakko wants to prove no such thing. There has been no kingdom of Finland nor anything like it in the past. Finland was a term used to indicate a territory inhabited by Finns. It had no centralized political organization at the time of the Swedish conquest around 1250 CE. --Drieakko 16:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  New modern mythology of Kvenland 

message: When the user Drieakko understands why the Kvens of Norway themselves officially call the so called Kven language Kainu, he will likely then understand also much more essential related to this topic.
When he also understands that the closest linquistic relatives of this newly legalized language Kainu are Meänkieli (spoken in Northern Sweden) - also known as Tornedalean Finnish, Tornedalen or Tornedals Finska in Swedish - and on the other hand the Kainuu dialect of Finnish language, he will then be even more on the right track.  Pleasant studies to you, user Drieakko.
It already has been pinpointed to you, user Driakko, why Kvenland can also be seen to have included the territories starting all the way from the Norwegian mountain chain eastwards, based on historic saga information.  Take a moment to review the past comments, please.  
Furthermore, also other than Scandinavian sources, for instance historic maps drawn by non-Scandinavians, have used the term Quen - written by various spellings.  Some of these maps in question show the areas of the Kvens to include the territories by the Artic Ocean and|or the White Sea (to review some of these maps please check for instance the said 1986 book of the Professor Emeritus Kyösti Julku.)
Steve Wondering 17:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Please reference the "historic maps drawn by non-Scandinavians" that have "various spellings of Quen". If they are half a millennium younger than sources handled in this article, please discuss about them in the Kven article. Kindly discuss the situation with present-day Kvens also there. There has been plenty of talk here about all kinds of things but practically nothing about the article itself. The article exists to discuss ancient sources of Kvenland. Again asking for errors in the article to be listed. --Drieakko 18:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In this discussion site a great number of errors have been pointed out for you by many writers, but you reject all of them as "no evidence" and has nothing to offer for your rejection. Some of your rejections I do support, but far from all.--84.216.52.24 19:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Plenty of claims have been presented, but almost nothing is said about the content of the article. People also seem to be more interested in Kainuu than Kvenland. --Drieakko 02:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

text: All old maps of Fennoscandia and especially of northern parts of it are zoomable here. I fail to find references to Kvens anywhere outside Carta Marina which was discussed earlier. All maps before 1635 call Pohjanmaa as "Botnia" (Boddia etc.) but after that "Kainuu" (Caiania etc.) takes over. Maps from the 18th century then use both names. "Kainuu" appears as the name for Pohjanmaa during the time when movement from Savo was strongest. --Drieakko 03:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: By the way, even if I should not open this discussion on this forum, I can not avoid mentioning that the official Internet site of the Norwegian Kvens has no idea that the official name of their language is "Kainu". See the site here. This  (along with most of your other postings under various sock puppets) seems to be your personal invention for strange reasons not immediately apparent. --Drieakko 04:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Kainuu dialect spoken in Finland is also not a "closest linguistic relative" of the Kven language. They belong to altogether different dialect groups. Kven language is closest related to Western Finnish dialects and Kainuu dialect to Eastern Finnish dialects. See dialect map here. --Drieakko 04:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kven language = Kainu

message: Added section listing Terra Feminarum and Sitones as possible references to Kvens. --Drieakko 09:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Terra Feminarum and Sitones 

message: Added another interpretation of Ottar's words to cover more alternatives. --Drieakko 06:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Positioning Kvenland using Sweden or Norway? 

message: As the article is rather long now, I am thinking of spinning out "Kven Sea" as its own article with some more content about the name and its meaning. Any comments for that? --Drieakko 13:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. Kindly see Kven Sea for more. --Drieakko 06:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Spin out Kven Sea as its own article? 

message: The above heading tells how things were, and how they should be now.  Therefore, your above statement is not accurate, user Drieakko. 
I demand for the Kvens of today and the Kvens of the past to be handled in one article, under the heading of the term Kven (also Kvens, etc., must be forwarded there).  In the past depate in this forum it has clearly been shown and agreed upon how the modern Kvens represent the very same group of people as the Kvens of the past. 
Personally, I do not mind at all that the term Kvenland has a separate article in Wikipedia, just like the terms Finn and Finland can be - and probably are - handled in two separate articles. 
In fact, Kven and Kvenland were two separate articles up till quite recently.  No on was fighting that point to my knowledge. 
The Kvens of the past and Kvens of today must be united into one article, because we are discussing here the one and the same group/tribe of people.  The article - of course - must also deal with the roots/history of this group/tribe of people, in light of the information available and in light of the known findings of respected historians and/or other scientists. 
A calm and a consensus had recently been reached about the Kven article (which was largely composed by the user Art Dominique).  There was then only one united article about the Kvens, another about Kvenland, also another about the Kven language.  I was not against that separation. 
Then came Mr. Leifern (now also known as Labongo) to the stage.  For the beginners he declared that he knows nothing about Kvens.  Nevertheless, he now came to demand for the modern Kvens and their ancestors to be split into two separate articles.  This despite of the recent consensus reached, and despite the ruling posted by Mr. Mikkalai, based on which no one any longer was to tamper with the Kven article without first providing proven, valid and easily verifiable sources.  
At that point the user Mikkalai had stopped his attempts to block the user Art Dominique.  Some time before that Mikkalai had attempted to block Art Dominique, to no prevail.  The user Art Dominique complained, first publicly announcing that he/she launched the user account of Digi Wiki, to be able to place his/her complaint to the administrators' site about the unfair block in question (Art Dominique could not write there either).
Mr. Mikkalai did another unfair blocking of Art Dominique at this point, proving how he keeps contradicting himself.  He allowed Mr. Leifern to split the Kven article, without the sources and/or valid reasoning he had shortly before been after.  Mr. Mikkalai too has announced that he is not knowledgeable about the Kvens.  That figures.  These two mates do not belong to this stage !  They both act cowardly and childishly, and neither one possesses the knowledge required !
Steve Wondering 18:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yet another long post from Art Dominique. --Drieakko 18:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Sigh. Yesterday I was accused of being the same person as Drieakko today I am Leifern. For the record, I don't use multiple account as Art Dominique/ Digi Wiki/ Steve Wondering probably does. Also, I hope this user soon realizes that these long nonsense comments, personal attacks, and endless reverts don't improve the quality of the articles.Labongo 11:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kvens - the modern-day and the past - used to be under only one article, Kvenland under another

message: Finland became slowly integrated into what is known as Sweden-Finland, not so much through any wars between the Swedes and the Finns, but rather through scirmishes between the Finns themselves, others sympathizing with the catholic Swedes in the west, others with the orthodox Russians in the east.  
Finland for along time consisted only of the Southwestern part of what today is considered Finland.  That integration in question did not for a long time - for centuries to come - include the Kvenland areas that are a part of today's Finland up north.  
The King of Sweden made sure to announce it publicly when he felt he had the right to call himself the King of the Kvens (and yes, in Swedish and Finnish that particular term/word - generally speaking - was not used in reference to the Kvens.  Nevertheless, the King was refering to the Kvens).
Please, check the expert views - and there are numerous - which point out that the term "Caijaners" (the people of Kajaani or the "Cajanians") refers to the people of Kainuu of course, in other words the Kvens.  Even in the present day the capital of Kainuu is called Kajaani.  The Swedish King said he now was also the King of the "Caijaners"
Steve Wondering 18:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The issue is handled in article Kings of Kvenland. The "caijaners" were arguably the same as the inhabitants of Kainuu in the middle of which the Kajaani castle was established in 1604 CE, close to Russian border. Inhabitants of Kainuu were predominantly immigrants from Savo during the 16th century. The king held the title during 1607-1611 CE. His son dropped it. Any relation to Kvens is unfortunately imaginatory. --Drieakko 06:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: A recent King of the Kvens, outside of Norway

message: Thank you kindly, user 84.216.52.203 ! 
The user Labongo may not understand that the Kvens are indigenous to Northern Norway, in my view anyway, and many of the best experts seem to agree.  We are not moved by the personal assumptions and/or believes of the user Labongo, but science instead, of course, as you seem to agree. 
The user Labongo:  Please read the related writings from this column's archive.  The Norse are not indigenous to the extreme Northern Norway of today.  The Kvens are.  The Northern Norway's Tromsa area alone has at least 12 prehistoric Kven place names. 
Historians and linguistics experts have been able to come to this conclusion, for instance based on the words and spellings that were used prior to the time - and/or during the time - when the first Norwegian/Norse immigration to Iceland took place.  The relevant sources have been given in this forum, for instance KVENLAND / KAINUUNMAA, 1986, by the Professor Emeritus Kyösti Julku. 
Where are your sources for counter claims, user Labongo ?  Do we only have your personal narrow view point, which even appears to be based on no sources at all.  If there are sources behind your views, what are they in relation to this matter for instance ? 
The related and quoted experts - earlier mentioned in this forum - are not basing their views only on the writings of Ottar, or Alfred the Great, or Tacitus, or any other before mentioned or not mentioned historian, or other scientist, writer or leader alone, of course.  Ask yourself for instance, who might be behind the prehistoric jewelry hidings that have been discovered only recently from Inari, not that far from the coastline of the Arctic Ocean. 
Examine and read more.  Only after having done that, make your own conclusions, not before, please.  In the meanwhile, let the experts make their conclusions, based on all the material and sources they have available.  Wikipedia is here to reveal the findings of science, not the opinions of yours. 
What on earth 18:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Kvens are indigenous to today's Northern Norway