Talk:Japanese dry garden

message: The article is very dismissive with Western attempts at trying to explain the actual meaning of the rock gardens, claiming that they are not supported by Japanese traditions. What exactly are these traditions? How do Japanese people understand this type of activity (rock gardening)?   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.207.100 (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: What are the "Japanese traditions" mentioned in the article?

message: Fun and stressless
you just need a good quiet room and let the zen garden do the rest!!!!
::The criticisms section makes reference to two printed works as well as other Wikipedia articles. The web address listed provides additional commentary. It would seem that the section relies on more than just a single source for proofs. Moreover, it doesn't seem logical that a section's length should be dictated by it's topic (criticism vs. the main topic itself). Several editors have made helpful changes for conciseness and readability while still maintaining the points and sources of the criticisms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.224.201.132 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 3 February 2006
:::The criticism takes an overly literal and naive view of the use of the term Zen garden. The term may be modern, but it refers to the fact that karesansui gardens were developed by designers who were associated with the practice of Rinzai Zen. The critical remarks ignore this connection and may lead the reader into thinking that the connection between these gardens and Zen temples is a completely modern phenonmenon irrelevant to aspects of their design. This is an unbalanced and incorrect viewpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.47.183.33 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 17 February 2006
::::Perhaps the criticisms section could be removed altogether and instead have someone with knowledge about Rinzai Zen clarify the origin and role of the garden with the practice. It seems the criticisms simply seek to disprove the modern popular views about the garden and it's use in Buddhism / meditation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.89.10 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 1 March 2006
: I removed the external link from the "criticism"-section, it is found and should be found under external links. It would be good to create a note in the text leading to the link, though, preferrably under "References" or similar. I have not dug so deeply into the art of references within wikipedia articles, however. // Habj 00:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 
The result of the debate was lowercase. —Nightstallion (?) 08:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Headline text 

message: In Japan, the garden in Ryoanji etc. vill not be referred to as zen gardens, but rock gardens. The term "zen garden" was, as far as I can see, invented in the west and apparenty used in gardening context, where this concept has gained some popularity - but is not this article about the actual Japanese gardens? If the page was moved to Japanese rock garden, then maybe the slightly troublesome "criticism"-sektion can be exchanged for a section that discusses the term zen garden in Western garden architecture etc. // Habj 13:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move to [[Japanese rock garden]]? 

message: :Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
* Oppose - It should be Japanese rock garden (small r & g), since this is not a particular place but a type of place. Rock garden is also much more widely used than either Zen garden or Karesansui. ~ trialsanderrors 21:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, I got the page on my watch list and am happy to reconsider my vote if new evidence emerges. I don't see much discussion going on though. ~ trialsanderrors 20:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Survey

message: There is an article here that argues that the idea that Japanese rock gardens are "Zen gardens" is a myth created in the West. When I took a Japanese history class in college, I learned about rock gardens, but not about Zen gardens. Since encyclopedias are supposed to be factual sources, perhaps this Wikipedia article should be more careful about distinguishing between true Japanese rock gardens and new age "Zen gardens". --JHP 23:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zen garden myth 

message: What about the urban legend that rock gardens started out as an 'Emperor's new Clothes' type of prank? 81.156.193.66 21:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Emperor's New Clothes 

message: I think the current definition is a poor reflection of what the dry rock garden is al about.
Looking at the photo of Shitennoji Honbo garden it also contradicts the definition, e.g. about the use of planting. Actually rocks, or better stone (!) can be represented/replaced by (topiary) shrubs, to represent mountainous scenery.
The use of terminology like ... an enclosed shallow sandpit... sounds very denigrating to me let alone to a Japanese reader. Actually Japanese rock garden should be Japanese dry rock garden (stone are used in all Japanese garden archetypes) if it refers to karesansui, as being dry, with only symbolic use of water and related landscape elements, is the essential key differentiator. 
Also not quite right to my perception is ....occasionally grass and/or other natural elements...
The extreme found in Ryoanji is an exception under the dry rock gardens. Most karesansui gardens make extensive use of planting, in particular (topiary) shrubs to represent landscape elements. 
Rather than grass (which is an exception) moss is the primary ground cover.
Text like this, sorry I have to say, should be removed as it is just not true:
Plants are much less important (and sometimes nonexistent) in many karesansui gardens. To maintain such gardens means that the plants, rocks, or other focal points are on occasion moved, turned or removed altogether.
 
The influence of Zen on garden design was (probably) first described by Kuck Kuck in the early 20th century and disputed by Kuitert Kuitert by the end of that century. What is not disputed is the fact that karesansui garden scenery was (and still is) inspired (or even based on) originally Chinese and later also Japanese, landscape paintings.
Though each garden is different in its composition, they mostly use rock groupings and shrubs to represent a classic scene of mountains, valleys and waterfalls taken from Chinese landscape painting. In the best of them the view also incorporates the hills behind as "borrowed scenery" (using a technique called Shakkei).
Today, ink monochrome painting still is the art form most closely associated with Zen Buddhism. A primary design principle was the creation of a landscape based on, or at least greatly influenced by, the three-dimensional  monochrome ink (sumi) landscape painting, sumi-e or suibokuga. In Japan the garden has the same status as a work of art.
Bibliography
Kuck: Kuck, Loraine. The World of the Japanese Garden (From Chinese Origine to Modern Landscape Art), John Weatherhill, Inc. of New York and Tokyo (1968, 1984) . 
Kuitert: Kuitert, Wybe. 	Scenes and Taste in the History of Japanese Garden Art. J.C.Gieben, Publisher, Amsterdam (1988) ISBN 0-5063-021-9.
I am not yet sure how to review and publish this. Help ! --Petrus Patings (talk) 10:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Definition of the karesansui garden 

message: I've read that raked sand/rock gardens where also used as a type of security system to aid in perimeter patrols. The obviousness of footsteps in these gardens was an alert that someone had infiltrated the temple or home and thus an alert would be issues. Of course I have no idea if this is a myth or not but I'd love to find a source somewhere that elaborates on the concept.  Dogsgomoo (talk) 15:02, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Security System

message: I feel that the term GARDEN is ill suited for the true Zen Pholosophy. What we popularly call as Zen Garden are actually the EXPRESSION
of Zen philosophy in rocks, sand etc in order to INTERNALISE the COSMIC experience with the aid of symbols.
Shrikant soman (talk) 06:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zen Garden is not a Garden at all : It is a Zen EXPRESSION 

message: Zen Garden is an ambient music group. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V92mFcYph-c
Lightbearer (talk) 10:04, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Until such time as we have a page about them and need a disambiguation, I don't think we need to do anything here. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: In the US, I've seen a good number of miniature dry gardens (complete with a rake the size of a dinner fork) used as a table decoration or desk toy. I think they're reasonably popular and should be discussed in this article. —Kodiologist (t) 15:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Miniature or toy versions