Talk:C. Bechstein

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Steveshelokhonov 06:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bechstein pianos: history, competition and vintage collectibles vs modern design

message: Since the 1860s, Bechstein pianos were played by major concert stars of the 19th century, such as Ferenc Liszt, Von Bulow, Tchaikovsky, brothers Nikolai and Anton Rubinstein, and many other professional musicians. At that time, several competing pianomakers were wooing stars for exclusive concert and touring arrangements, such as the Steinway's arrangement with Anton Rubinstein for his legendary tour of 215 concerts in the USA. However, outside of the USA, and after the tour ended, Rubinstein was free to choose any piano he liked to play, and he often played a Bechstein, thus making Bechstein the piano of choice for many of his students at the St. Petersburg Conservatory, and ultimately in Russia. In 1890 Bechstein opened their showroom and concert hall on the Nevsky Prospekt in St. Petersburg, near the major department stores, Gostiny Dvor and The Passage. 
The years from the 1870s through 1914 brought Bechstein their most dramatic increase in sales. In 1880 a second Bechstein factory was opened in Berlin, and the third factory was opened in 1897 in Berlin Kreuzberg. In 1901, the Bechstein Hall opened on Wigmore street in London, offering 300 concerts per year. By 1900 - 1910 production reached five thousand pianos per year, so Bechstein was the largest maker of high-end pianos in the world. At that time about three quarters of production went to international markets, especially Britain and the Commonwealth, and in Russia. Since 1885 Bechstein was the supplier of Queen Victoria. A gilded art-case piano was first delivered to the Buckingham Palace in 1885, then several more Bechstein pianos were delivered to the Windsor Castle and to other royal residences. Many other mansions and salons in London were following the royal example. Several British embassies across the world acquired Bechstein pianos to replace lesser pianos. Also in 1885, Bechstein opened a branch in London, that eventually grew to become the largest showroom and dealership in Europe, and a few years later, opened showrooms in Paris and St. Petersburg.
Bechstein was the official piano maker for the csars of Russia, the kings of Spain, Italy, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Denmark, and other royalty and aristocracy. Those vintage Bechstein pianos are still played at private mansions, embassies and diplomatic and cultural missions across the world, and I've been able to play quite a few of those pianos on various occasions. The list of royal clients of Bechstein may be found on the soundboard of each and every vintage Bechstein piano made before the Second World War. Anyone can look at the soundboard of a Bechstein piano to see the list of royal clients, if the piano was properly re-built, the re-builder always tries to preserve the original logo, instead of using the replacement or a modern day replica. The list is part of the original Bechstein logo, it can be seen under the strings in the center of soundboard.Steveshelokhonov 06:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: A memorable moment with a Bechstein in the lobby of the famed Astoria Hotel in St. Petersburg, 2004. Inna playing Rachmaninoff, Steve playing Gershwin, we with our tea and crumpets hearing such art on this great instrument. A moment to never forget. Frederick Andresen 11 March 2008FAndresen (talk) 20:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That piano is Bechstein C-232 from the end of the 19th century, a rare hundred-year-old piano, it was probably delivered to St. Petersburg long before the October Revolution, and then it changed owners, until it was re-built and re-strung in the 90s, after the Soviet Union collapsed. That piano has been through a lot of interesting history. There are also art-case Bechsteins at the Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle, would be interesting if someone has pictures of those Bechstein pianos. Steveshelokhonov 21:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Images of art-case Bechstein pianos would help us improve the article.  Steveshelokhonov 04:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: History of Bechstein pianos and Carl Bechstein's personal relations with leading musicians

message: The Second World War brought the end of the "Golden era" for Bechstein, due to military destruction of the Bechstein factory by air-bombing and artillery bombardments of Berlin, that destroyed both Bechstein factories and warehouses. Bombings and fire ruined production lines and supply storages with all precious Alpine spruce that was made with special treatment and matured under controlled humidity to achieve the best qualities needed for those valuable soundboards. Bechstain is located in the American sector of West Berlin, and the US administration confiscated the company and shut production in 1947. WWII caused Bechstein tremendous material and financial losses, and erosion of their customer base internationally. 
Emigration of intellectuals and erosion of the upper classes of society together with the loss of skilled piano makers were the most detrimental factors caused by the Nazi regime and WWII. After the war, Bechstein factories were located in the American sector of West Berlin, and as the enemy property Bechstein was confiscated by the American administration. With the loss and destruction of business, gone were all jobs for specialist professionals who were trained and groomed in the traditional high-end pianomaking. Bechstein's own web site today mentions that the loss of customer base was very significant after the Hitler's attack on Jews, and the following emigration of intellectuals. 
After the war, a limited number of pianos were assembled by surviving personnel, and with the use of salvaged piano parts from storage. Most post-war Bechstein pianos do not have the list of royal clients, because of multiple changes in the post-war Europe. The Bechstein company was in transition and changed ownership several times during the post-war decades. Steveshelokhonov 06:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Destruction of Bechstein in the Second World War

message: In 1953, the centennial of Bechstein was celebrated by the Berlin Philharmonic under Wilhelm Furtwangler and Wilhelm Backhaus. Many entertainers and concert pianists, such as Leonard Bernstein, Jorge Bolet, and Wilhelm Kempff, favored Bechstein pianos. The State Ministry of Culture of the Soviet Union made a contract to supply major state philharmonic orchestras and concert halls across the USSR with three brands of pianos - Steinway, Bluthner, and Bechstein. Bluthner and Bechstein were also made the staple practice pianos at the Leningrad Conservatory and Moscow Conservatory, while most other music schools of the USSR were limited mainly to the Soviet-made pianos. Concert pianists, such as Dinu Lipatti, Shura Cherkassky, Tatiana Nikolaeva, Vladimir Sofronitsky, and Sviatoslav Richter, among others, often chose Bechstein pianos for their studio recordings.
In 1992 Bechstein started the new factory in Saxony with investment of 15 million Euros. In 1996 C. Bechstein went public. By 2006 the company opened eight upscale showrooms, increasing the number of Bechstein dealerships in major cities across Europe, North America and Asia. Since 2003, Bechstein formed partnership with Samick with the samick's participation in Bechstein limited to 39%. In 2005 the Bechstein/Samick joint venture opened their new piano factory in Shanghai, China. In 2006 a new Bechstein/Hoffman joint factory was opened in Bohemia, Czech Republic, and a new Bechstein center with a showroom and a concert hall is planned to be built in Moscow, Russia.Steveshelokhonov 06:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: New Bechstein factories

message: Over the years, Bechstein has been showing their newest pianos, as well as their rebuilt classic pianos from the "Golden era" vintage. 
Re-building of a vintage piano is often a good idea, because it saves rare species of trees from being cut for the new production. A general consensus among professionals has been towards re-building mostly the high end vintage pianos by Bechstein, Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bluthner, Pleyel, and some other brands.
During the 1980s and 1990s, Bechstein's new owner, Carl Schulze, was buying back tens of rare vintage Bechstein pianos, mainly in London and across Europe. Several art-case Bechstein pianos were bought and exported from the former Soviet Union during the time of their economic collapse. Art-case Bechstein pianos are the pride of the company, so the new ownership has been making a sound investment. , the global market for acoustic pianos was hurt by mass production of relatively cheap electronic keyboards, regardless of the well known fact that electronic keyboards are lacking the authenticity of a real piano sound. Still, as long as there is culture with a critical mass of concert musicians and educated audiences worldwide, many corporations will continue sponsorship of live piano performances in various settings, solo, ensembles, and, of course, piano concertos with major symphony orchestras. Sophisticated piano connoisseurs may be found in many places around the world, such as in New York, Los Angeles, Moscow, Paris, or London, where I met a gentleman at the Harrods piano rooms, and we discussed the book "Piano" which was made with his contribution.
Vintage Bechstein pianos from the late 19th century and up until the Second World War, are in demand due to their high quality, playability and special sound. Here is an example with the classic Chopin. During the last decades, I played the newer Bechsteins at several NAMM Shows and Musikmesse shows; I also played Bechsteins at various halls, studios and showroom, and had a chance to talk with Mr. Schultze and his current Chinese partners. They said that the pre-war logo that listed all royal clients and was on all pre-war Bechstein pianos, may be placed today on a custom ordered Bechstein piano upon customer request.  
Although not yet comparable to a rare one-of-a-kind violin, a good Bechstein piano of pre-WWII vintage may be a desired musical instrument.  
Pre-WWII vintage Bechsteins, as well as Steinways, Bluthners and Bosendorfers, are highly regarded by many pianists and music connoisseurs for their special qualities. Rebuilt Bechstein pianos are in demand, and are used in smaller-size concert venues, recording studios, and schools. I've played Bechstein pianos at many places in Europe and the former Soviet Union, where a rebuilt Bechstein is sometimes preferred over a new piano, mainly due to Bechstein's superior sound quality ( when the piano is properly maintained and tuned well ). Some vocalists and chamber ensemble musicians do like to work with a Bechstein piano, commenting on the nice sound and less fatigue during practice, rehearsals, and concert performances. The legendary vintage Bechstein grand piano at the Trident Studios in London can be heard on Hey Jude and other songs from the White Album, the piano was used for recordings by The Beatles, Elton John, David Bowie, and Freddie Mercury, among many other recording artists. This one is nice.
The vintage models "A" - 185, "B" - 203, "C" - 232, and "D" - 280 were originally designed by Bechstein during the 1890s - 1900s to compete with the Steinway pianos A - 188, B - 211, C - 227, and D - 274. Bechstein designed their piano plates for a slightly less tension than that of a comparable sized Steinway, and thus allowing the use of slightly different calibers of wire for strings. Bechstein soundboards were also designed differently from Steinway soundboards, mainly in the treble section, where Bechstein's design their soundboard with a loose open end, thus allowing more freedom of vibration and better resonance with the strings in the treble section. Many other experimental and innovative design features contributed to the unique sound of Bechstein pianos. The special sound and playability of Bechstein has been studied and discussed by musicians and engineers, especially in London and Berlin, as well as at numerous trade shows, and the growing consensus among professionals has been that the model B-203 and its slightly larger updated versions, A-208, B-208, BB-208, and B-210 are among the finest pianos of comparable size among all brands. However, other Bechstein lines and models, A, C, and D, are also good pianos, although with less powerful sound than the Steinways of the same size. A vintage B-208 art-case Bechstein is shown here.
My own experience with Bechstein pianos started since my music studies in early childhood. Some Bechsteins were very nice, others were not, mainly due to inconsistent maintenance and other correctable factors. I chose two vintage Bechstein pianos that are worth rebuilding for my own use, and when both pianos came out of rebuilder's shop, I let quite a few people to "test drive" both in various styles. Almost everybody liked both pianos for sound and playability, and especially for their responsiveness to nuances of touch and imagination. As an experiment, both pianos were placed in recording studios, then moved to a small concert venue, and to a museum environment for some time, and both keep sounding and playing well in every environment. However, both Bechsteins produce a softer, mellower sound, when compared to a newer Steinway, which has a bigger sound, and broader multi-directional projection. Several singers preferred to be accompanied by the Bechstein piano, and commented on its special tone that makes singing along more comfortable. Recording engineer commented that Bechstein was easier to balance in sound production, probably because the sound attack was not as powerful as that of the Steinway. 
While modern Bechstein and Steinway are very different pianos, mainly due to modern demands for powerful sound in larger concert halls, some vintage Bechsteins and Steinways do have very beautiful sound and nice cabinet design epitomizing some of the most exquisite craftsmanship of the "Golden era," and this fine qualities are worth to be preserved. Steveshelokhonov 22:20, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Vintage Bechstein pianos

message: Elton John recorded "Your Song", and many other tracks on a handmade C. Bechstein concert-sized instrument that was over one hundred years old and its classic sound was much sought after. The piano was at the Trident Studios in London.
The Beatles used C. Bechstein concert grand piano for recording Hey Jude and the White Album tracks Dear Prudence, Honey Pie, Savoy Truffle and Martha My Dear, I Want You (She's So Heavy) for the album Abbey Road, all at the Trident Studios.
Freddie Mercury of the British pop band Queen played a Bechstein D concert grand piano on several tracks of the best-selling album A Night at the Opera. He also used a smaller Bechstein S baby grand.Steveshelokhonov 06:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: [[Elton John]] , [[Freddie Mercury]] and other popular stars played Bechstein pianos

message: This is where opinions of attending public may differ from what the pianist feels, because sound perception is very subjective due to individual variations of the inner ear anatomy, various exposure and experience in perception of sound, level of musical education, and personal taste.
The battle of two piano makers did not stop since 1885, when Bechstein became the supplier of Queen Victoria. A gilded art-case piano was first delivered to the Buckingham Palace in 1885, then several more Bechstein pianos were delivered to the Windsor Castle and to other royal residences. Many other mansions and salons in London were following the royal example. Steinway was losing sales to private customers, however, Bechstein could not win the battle for concert halls; most concert pianists preferred (and still do) playing a Steinway D-274 on stage, because Bechsteins are less clear and less powerful on fortissimo than Steinways, and this is also true for most other pianos, none can perform like a D-274 on stage with a full orchestra. Unlike D-274, a Bechstein grand cannot be heard clearly through a full orchestral tutti, no matter how much power a pianist can strike. That's why many concert halls and top pianists use a D-274:  and 
However, in piano sales for upper middle class customers Bechstein remained the strongest competitor of Steinway & Sons for many deacdes up until WWII. Due to the sweet and mellow tone, Bechstein dominated in the segment of the market for "parlor grands" and private homes, while Steinway remained the most powerful sounding piano and thus preferred by most major concert halls. However, Bechstein has been a good choice for smaller concert venues, for schools, and for private homes. Bechstein models A and B were the best selling pianos during the decades preceding WWII, as well as the Bechstein upright model 8. The Bechstein upright piano model 8 is considered by many as the finest upright piano ever made, it is now back in production in a slightly updated re-issue (just like some Gibson Les Paul guitars from the 50's era). While music connoisseurs were always looking for rare Bechsteins, the general public is gradually becoming aware of the special sound and playing qualities that are unique to Bechstein pianos of certain vintage.
Today the music market is changing fast, mainly due to new cultural trends, so affordable electronic keyboards cut into the segment of affordable acoustic pianos. Worldwide piano sales are down 40% in the last decade. Still some high-end pianos, like Bluthner, Bechstein, Fazioli, Steinway, Bosendorfer, Yamaha and Kawai are in demand among certain groups of customers, as one Bechstein specialist stated "It is now becoming harder to survive making many mediocre instruments, than if you are making fewer but superior pianos." That's why hundreds of piano makers went out of business during the last few decadesSteveshelokhonov 06:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Bechstein vs Steinway, and how their competition contributed to improvements in piano industry.

message: Re this edit: alphabet soup of guidelines and policies notwithstanding, this isn't a case of removing ad copy or tempering exaggeration. The statement you reworded was verifiable and, in fact, already sourced. Bechstein concert grands are highly regarded in essentially all quarters among serious pianists. Fine's oft-cited reference work confirms that, but it doesn't confirm what you changed the sentence to read: that Bechstein "specializes" in concert grands. Bechstein is best known for its concert grands—as is nearly every serious piano maker—because those are the models that receive the most careful design and craftsmanship, but it is something of a stretch to say it specializes in them.
Cheers,
Rivertorch (talk) 04:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: My primary motivation for removing the claim is that it is a non-neutral assertion of an opinion: namely that of Mr. Fine. I have no doubt that he may well be a well-reputed and established authority to make such claims, but Wikipedia's NPOV policy prevents us from making such qualitative assessments. Simply put, we should assert facts, not opinions and allow the reader to come to his or her own conclusion. I could readily find reliable sources asserting that President Obama is the most popular president in recent American history just as soon as I could find reliable sources asserting that President Reagan was the most popular president in recent American history. One should instead substantiate the grounds for the assertions (high presidential approval numbers, percentage of votes won, or better, number of pianos sold, number of pianos used by award-winning artists, etc.) I agree that "specializes" is likewise an awkward assertion, but I didn't want to dramatically upset the wording and referencing in the opening sentence. I welcome suggestions about how to improve it. Finally, the edit was motivated by a similar dispute at Steinway about their prestige and reputation likewise being in the lead (and elsewhere throughout the article), so one can see the problems that accompany these assertions. This is not Lake Wobegon where everyone is above average! Madcoverboy (talk) 15:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: This is not about asserting a claim; it's about reporting a claim. Your interpretation of the neutrality policy seems very strange to me. In terms of deciding which sources to accept as reliable, we make qualitative assessments all the time. An article about a musical instrument manufacturer isn't like an article about a topic in botony or anthropology or medicine. There is no peer review process to substantiate what experts like Fine assert. As I see it, we either accept that Fine is qualified to make such a claim (and perhaps, to be ultra-cautious, reword the passage to make the authorship of the claim even more obvious) or we dismiss him as a reliable source. There are no neutrality issues involved here, as far as I can see. I have no particular interest in how this latest wrinkle in this one article shakes out, but it seems a pity to me when perfectly innocuous statements commonly accepted as true and already verified by widely-read authorities are targeted like this. In any case, the "specializes" is not supported by citation, so it must go. Rivertorch (talk) 17:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  My primary, overriding concern is about the unnecessary use of loaded and non-neutral terms in the lead and especially the lead sentence of the article. They may be innocuous, and this is an implication of practice rather than policy implication, but these innocuous but non-neutral statements lead to headaches when every other related article or article for a competitor then tries to make the exact same claims. Per WP:SUBSTANTIATE, we can attribute this opinion (no matter how authoritative, it is still an opinion) directly to whatever authorities are expert in the field rather than simply asserting it as true. Obviously this sort of exposition has no place in the lead sentence, but it may have a place elsewhere in the lead. As I mentioned already, I'm of the mind that the article would be better served by substantiating the grounds for its reputation in the first place: industry awards, award-winning artists using the brand, high-profile venues using the brand, historical prominence among performers, etc. These are neutral and verifiable facts, not opinions. Madcoverboy (talk) 17:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. Well, to start with, a couple of nitpicks. First, I can't help thinking that industry awards are worse than useless in this instance. (As in many other instances. Two words: Academy Awards. I'll take Leonard Maltin godlike pronouncements over Hollywood's insider voting any day. But I digress.) Award-winning artists are well and good, but it actually seems potentially POVish to me to consider their regard more meaningful than the regard of other artists. Anyhow, the degree of regard in which something is held is pretty hard to quantify; if a reputable institution did a methodologically sound poll of pianists of a certain caliber, then perhaps that would be meaningful. Re your suggestion we substantiate, I did already suggest something along the same lines, fwiw ("perhaps, to be ultra-cautious, reword the passage to make the authorship of the claim even more obvious"). The thing is, "highly regarded" speaks only indirectly to the quality of Bechstein pianos, and it isn't opinion, it's fact; although other makes (e.g., Bösendorfer, Yamaha) have a large and devoted following, Bechstein and Steinway are in something of a class of their own (please understand I'm referring to the demonstrably, verifiably high regard in which they're held, not to any alleged reason behind that regard). Bottom line: the lede is now bland and banal. Can we agree that some other sources besides Fine should be sought to justify the reinsertion of some wording similar in meaning to "highly regarded" but less likely to set off the peacock radar? I would have no objection to its going in further down in the lede paragraph. Rivertorch (talk) 01:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

text: Almost forgot—as long as we're sampling the alphabet soup, WP:NPOV (and all its aliases) paraphrases His Royal Jimboness thus: "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts." I thought that was the case here, but I may have been wrong. Rivertorch (talk) 01:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Highly regarded" 

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