Talk:College of William & Mary/Archive 2

message: Doesn't the president read "Twas The Night Before Christmas" at the Yule Log ceremony, and the Vice President for Student Affairs (aka Sam Sadler) read "How the Grinch Stole Christmas", rather than the other way around?
* Never.  It's always been the other way 'round.  I should know - I've sung at the ceremony four years running. --AlbertHerring 08:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yule log 

message: Harvard was founded as a seminary. William and Mary was the first secular liberal arts institution. If it's "higher learning," yes, Harvard is the oldest. It depends on classification and terms.
*Now we're really splitting hairs, perhaps. W&M has never claimed to be the oldest, why would WP? -Jcbarr 01:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Oldest? 

message: For the rationale behind the merger proposal, see the Talk page for List of presidents of the College of William and Mary. --TommyBoy 02:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger Proposal  

message: Mentions of W&M's junior-college outreach seem to get removed from this page.  Why not put on these facts?
1925 W&M established the Richmond division of the College of William and Mary (adopting the Richmond School of Social Work, founded 1917), later making it the Richmond Professional Institute of the College of William and Mary (1939).  It separated in 1962 and later became Virginia Commonwealth University
1930 W&M established the two-year Norfolk Division of the College of William and Mary, Norfolk College, which became independent in 1962 as Old Dominion University.
1960 "The General Assembly altered the College's name to "The Colleges of William and Mary," an administrative entity embracing the senior colleges at Williamsburg, Norfolk and Richmond, in addition to the new junior colleges, Christopher Newport in Newport News and Richard Bland in Petersburg." (http://www.wm.edu/vitalfacts/twentieth3.php)
1960 W&M established Christopher Newport College, a two-year branch in Newport News, later Christopher Newport University.
1960 W&M established Richard Bland College of The College of William & Mary, still a two-year junior college in Petursburg.
* These should probably be put back on the page.
* Added this information under the headline "The Colleges of William and Mary"
I put the section back for now. Fellow who removed it, would you like to discuss why here? WWC 12:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  The "colleges" of William & Mary, including its junior colleges 

message: William and Mary is the oldest university in the American South.  The College was the first to teach Political Economy; Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was a required textbook .  In 1781, William and Mary became the first college in America to become a university by uniting its law, medicine and arts faculties; it was also the first college to establish a chair of modern languages.  Chemistry was taught beginning in the nineteenth century; alumnus and future MIT founder William Barton Rogers served as the College's Professor of Natural Philosophy and Chemistry from 1828-1835.
Beginning with his 1778 Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge, Thomas Jefferson was involved with efforts to reform the College.  Jefferson guided the College to adopt the nation's first elective system of study and to introduce the first student-adjudicated Honor System. But, as a biographer notes, "Jefferson would one day sharply criticize William and Mary, and eventually he designed, built, and administered the University of Virginia in open opposition to his alma mater." p. 40
Also at Jefferson's behest, the College appointed his friend and mentor George Wythe as the first Professor of Law in America in 1779. John Marshall, who would later go on to become Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, was one of Wythe's students. The College's Marshall-Wythe School of Law is the oldest law school in the United States and is named after these founding jurists.
Cka3n 18:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History and milestones

message: Regarding the recent edits, the information regarding matriculation rate was deleted without explanation.  As it is sourced, it has been reinstated.  Although I would certainly invite other opinions, I think the matriculation information is relevant -- just off-hand, I would note that it follows the immediately prior claims that most W&M applicants are not offered admission and that most W&M applicants also apply to US News Top 25 universities.  Also, I am considering adding matriculation data for the "overlap" schools, where W&M leads Vanderbilt.
The claim that W&M is the most selective public university in Virginia has been removed.  W&M is has a ~6% lower admissions rate than U-Va, but it has a higher admissions rate than, e.g., Washington & Lee (not a public school in Va, but a Virginia college and, for a reasonable number of in-state high school students, a W&M peer school).  Moreover, W&M has a higher admissions rate than Duke, Georgetown, and Cornell (which schools, in addition to U-Va and Vanderbilt, are apparently W&M's "overlap" schools) (data from nces.ed.gov).  To me, and I apologize if I am reading things wrong, the inclusion of the admissions rate information seems mostly designed both as a slight to in-state U-Va (certainly a fun game with an easy target, but perhaps better suited for other fora) and to include W&M in a group with schools like Duke, et al.
My concern here is particularly highlighted because there have been consistent deletions or changes recently (e.g., Jefferson's legacy, these changes) which serves to booster W&M's image but which are not explained parenthetically or here on the talk page.
Cka3n 20:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Admissions edits 

message: I removed the reference to the Washington Monthly ranking.  First, there are many, many college rankings, and I am not sure why the Washington Monthly rankings in particular are worthy or encyclopedic notation, especially given their regional scope.  Second, the Washington Monthly rankings are clearly inconsistent with the general understanding (e.g., South Carolina State > Harvard), so any reference to the rankings seems to need context.  As the context keeps getting edited away, it appears that the reference to the WM rankings is most likely boosterism (and, to boot, boosterism in the form of a slight to in-state UVa). Cka3n 21:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Washington Monthly 

message: For the 2005-06 academic year, 31.0% of applicants were admitted to William and Mary, ahead of peers University of Virginia (37.7%) and Vanderbilt University (35.3%) but behind Georgetown University (21.5%), Duke University (21%), and Cornell University (27.1%). Of those admitted to the 2005 enrolling class, 40.9% matriculated at William and Mary, a yield that leads Vanderbilt's (39.4%) but trails those of the University of Virginia (52.8%), Georgetown University (47.2%), Cornell University (46.5%) and Duke University (43.2%).
This needs to be reworded to remove subjective/qualitative language.   Admitting fewer students does not place W&M "ahead" of UVa.   --Orang55 04:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Why would we need to delete this discussion from the Talk page? Cka3n 05:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  selectivity 

message: Sources: Earl Greg Swem Special Collections University Archive
Commencement Speakers
Roclar 13:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commencement Speakers 

message: The article currently states that W&M is distinguished from larger research universities by its "small university environment, accessible professors and undergraduate enrollment of 5,635".  It seems to me that the first and the third items are very similar and could be combined (e.g., "small university environment, with only 5,635 undergraduates enrolled").  In any case, I have no doubt that W&M's small size does in fact distinguish it from larger universities.
However, is there any source for the claim that W&M is distinguished from larger research universities by its "accessible professors"?  Google only turned up the wiki text, and the language seems to be the sort of language that populates promotional brochures.
I am going to revise as noted in my first paragraph.  If there is a source, please feel free to revert.
Cka3n 23:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  "accessible professors"? 

message: I have some concerns about the Feeder College section.  The current text reads:Similarly, in the early fall of 2003, The Wall Street Journal published the results of a survey of the alma maters of entering students at the nation's Top 5 professional programs (e.g., Yale Law School, Harvard Business School and Johns Hopkins Medical School). William and Mary placed second among Virginia's state public universities and seventh among all public universities [31] for elite graduate placement. The The Wall Street Journal sometimes refers to William and Mary and similar institutions as "feeder" colleges, in recognition of their success at feeding their graduates to Top 5 professional programs.
My concerns:
 This is rather outdated article.
 The linked document does not refer to "the nation's Top 5 professional programs" or to any of the programs cited in our text.  (Nor does the related top 50 ranking .)
 Because of the rankings of West Point and the Naval Academy, I believe the text should read "amoung all state-supported universities," not "among all public universities."
 The article is a ranking of schools, not of universities (e.g., it includes Williams).
 I don't see any evidence that the WSJ "sometimes refers to William and Mary and similar institutions as 'feeder' colleges."  Obviously, there is the reference in this article, but have they ever otherwise used to the term to refer to W&M?
 Also, saying that the WSJ refers to W&M and similar institutions as "feeder" colleges b/c of their placement success needs to be in context.  Who, exactly, does the WSJ refer to as a feeder college?  W&M is ranked #82 overall.  That is a long way from #1 Harvard and #2 Yale.  Moreover, the ranking list that includes W&M also includes Stony Brook (SUNY), Georgia Tech, Florida A&M University, Concord College (W.Va.), and Univ. of Md., Eastern Shore.  Without further evidence regarding the WSJ's use of the term "feeder" college vis-a-vis W&M, it would be hard to argue that W&M is a feeder college and those others are not.
My suggestions:
 Delete the passage.
 If not, replace with:In the early fall of 2003, The Wall Street Journal published the results of a survey of the alma maters of entering students at the nation's elite business, medical and law schools. William and Mary placed 82nd overall, 2nd among Virginia's public universities, and 7th seventh among all state-supported universities for elite graduate placement.
Cka3n 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Feeder colleges 

message: The introduction -  "Although considered one of the first universities in America (if not the first)," - conflicts with the History and Milestones section - "In 1781, William and Mary became the first college in America to become a university".  I know the second cites a W&M page.  Is there any reason to doubt this (as per the first quote), or should both quotes be in accordance with the W&M page?
Cka3n 22:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First University? 

message: The statement "It is often ranked as the best small public university in the nation." is not supported by the cited link .  Accordingly, we can either change the statement to match the link, i.e., delete "often ranked as" (trusting W&M's evaluation of itself) or we can delete this phrase and rely upon the ample accolades included within the article itself.
Cka3n 22:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Best small public university 

message: Is there any evidence that the 5th Pennsylvania Cavalry soldiers who set fire to the College Building were actually drunk? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gnosticdogma (talk • contribs) 21:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Drunk Soldiers