Talk:Herbert W. Armstrong/Archive 2

message: The intro has been altered recently, and it would be pretty solid and succinct except for a very misleading statement that makes it appear the main message of the Church was not about the "World Tomorrow" and the "Family of God" together comprising the "Gospel of the Kingdom of God", but instead about the Churchs' teaching concerning the identetities of the English speaking peoples in Bible prohesy.  Though the book concerning the latter sold the most copies overall, the main message of the Church focussed on the "True Gospel."  Note that the the connection between the Church and "the Mosaic law" (Armstrong called it "God's Law") was not due to a focus on ancient Israel or its modern identity but on the belief that those laws and festivals were universal truths for mankind-first revealed to Israel--and Church writings quoted the book of Acts and hisitorians who lived in the first century to show that even the Apostles and gentile converts of the first century are known to history as having kept the 'Mosaic Law"it (including the so-called Jewish Holy Days")  
Here's the qoute in question: 
"The Church's doctrines and theological teachings, sometimes referred to by critics as Armstrongism, stemmed from his belief that the key to Bible interpretation was the knowledge that the British and American peoples were descended from the twelve tribes of ancient Israel [1], that the true church was a type of "New Testament Israel..." 
Please note that the prophecies put forward concerning the modern identity of America and Britain were given as both "a warning to them to repent" and as "the strongest proof of the autrhority of the Bible" but not the core of the Gospel. Their Gospel teaching was that God was creating a family through mankind--reproducing literal offspring and that Utopia was on the eway with Christ's return. Much of the warning to the 'Israelite " nations was becasue they were to be punished first and most severly  for their sins, and would be the first nations to repent.
67.80.157.45 11:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New Intro Would Be Solid, but for one Misleading Statement

message: I made a number of factual edits to this article and cited sources throughout for verification, in some cases citing links to actual publications quoting Herbert Armstrong's writings. These contributions were intended to achieve the NPOV that Wikipedia claims to stand for. These were significant contributions to the sections "Armstrong's wife encounters Church of God (Seventh Day)," "Beginnings of Armstrong's Ministry," and "Radio and publishing." Within a day the sections were largely switched back to the way they read pre-edits, including various unsubstantiated claims. I again attempted to insert the edits today. There is no reason to vilify Herbert Armstrong, but it is evident that he made regular and significant claims and statements that elicit debate and disagreement, and that should not be neglected in a summary about his life and work. Supporters (and critics) can create their own sites to praise (or criticize) the man, but this article should look at both sides of the issue. Wilburweber 11:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Curious changes 

message: Dear Wilburweber,
You referred in your posting to your having made "a number of factual edits with citations".  The problem is, most all of them were either 1) innapropriately negative in a sensationalistic way, or 2) were aggregiously superfluous, thus making the article too long not to mention unprofessional in appearance (i.e. they had either too much detail or were even unrelated to Armstrong personally, like the lengthy and oddly frequent references to Dugger and Dodd's life after they wrote their book).  Here are some of the passages, out of context of course, but they nevertheless can be judged by others fairly: 
the following are tangantile or superfluous:
a) "By the time the book was published, Dugger and Dodd had led a group [Church of God 7th Day][4] that broke from Ora Runcorn's church but retained its Sabbatarian teachings; Herbert and Loma Armstrong had followed their lead. Dodd would eventually go on to become a founder of the Sacred Name Movement"[5].
b) "This was at a time when evolution was in the news thanks to the highly publicized Scopes Trial in Tennessee, for which a teacher was convicted of teaching evolution in the classroom alongside creationism."
c) "Armstrong preached his first sermon in 1928, and began contributing articles to the church's publication, The Bible Advocate. In 1931 he was ordained as a minister by the church. When Andrew Dugger led the breakaway Church of God 7th Day in 1933, Armstrong aligned with that organization, eventually being credentialed as a minister in 1934.[9]"
In addition to being longwinded, please note that the following passage contains an obviously biased, unsubstantiated statement accusing Armstrong--through innuendo--of stealing his ideas about the connection between ancient Israel and America/Britain from a single source written in 1905. Realize their have been over 50 books written on the subject since the year 1699 (when a Venetian wrote a book about it), and Armstrong referred to these sources as a whole. His views expressed in The U.S. and Britain in Prophecy focused on scriptural passages, while referring to many secular sources secondarily. Note than Armstrong, in his literature, frequently cited the works of others, as he did with Bible commentaries (when he agreed with them) to explain scripture. Here's the passage in question, and, again, it fits the pattern of superfluous text, marring the usefulness of the article--added in the Wilberweber edit:
"Armstrong would soon after express more disappointment when he approached the church's leadership with what he thought was a wonderful truth, in the form of a manuscript that he had been working on about the biblical identity of the American and British peoples in prophecy. He had been strongly influenced by author J.H. Allen's 1902 book, "Judah's Scepter and Joseph's Birthright." Armstrong would claim years later that various ministers of the church felt he had made compelling arguments for the case that the English-speaking peoples of the world -- primarily in Great Britain and the United States -- were, in effect, "modern Israel," but would not teach his theory to the church at large. It should also be noted that this was before the modern state of Israel was established in 1948."
Superfluous, tangential, and way too much text and detail in this next this passage; first note that the original made a much more succinct reference to Armstrong's later belief about who and what the Church of God (Seventh Day) was prophetically; Second, note that Holy Days were already mentioned prominently in the opening: 
"The "church era" concept was not new; Adventist and Church of God ministers had discussed and debated it for years, and generally considered the modern church to be representative of the "Laodicean," or last, era described in Revelation.[10] Armstrong, however, claimed that the Laodicean era was yet to come; that the Church of God organizations with which he had affiliated represented the Sardis, or "dead," era; and that he would lead the era represented by the positive message to the church at Philadelphia. This teaching of church eras would further alienate his former colleagues and become another foundational principle of Armstrong's belief system...
...Finally, Armstrong contended that the Hebrew feast days outlined in the Old Testament were to be kept by the church today. He presented his material to the ministerial body of the Church of God 7th Day at a conference in Detroit, Mich., where it was rejected as unscriptural by a majority present.[11] Armstrong's insistence on certain doctrinal distinctives led to his ministerial credentials being revoked by the Church of God 7th Day in 1937.[12] Undeterred, Armstrong began holding Bible studies in and around Eugene, Oregon, and began to attract a small following."
--Another tangential reference to Dugger and or Dodd:
"Just two years later, in 1949, the organization that Andrew Dugger had formed in 1933, and with which Herbert Armstrong had once aligned himself, returned to fellowship with the Church of God (Seventh Day). Dugger, however, formed a separate group based in Jerusalem, retaining the name Church of God 7th Day.[15]"
On a side note, please note that the term "sensationalism", used in the same section as the paragraph above, is highly lacking in NPOV.  If you are going to make out of context, (correspondingly sensationalistic) references to him saying "Hitler is still alive"  then where are the references to the outstanding journalistic standards of the Plain Truth--the quality and sophistication of it's global analysis, and all the correct predictions, as documented in an an special magazine issue of an offshoot church? (which I can provide a link to if you like).  One reason why the statement is sensationalistic is because of the context: certainly other respected analysts have made overly confident assertions and were wrong--in recent times the media as a whole supported the WMD claims through their own independent fact finding, as did Germany, France etc.. As for Armstrong's assertion on Hitler,the context is it got ordinary people to read the his magazine which was written on a sophisticated geopolitical subjects. In other words, it just looks like more digging and clasping for negativity-a despicable pattern this article has a history of.
Thus we have the lions's share of your contributions. Your added citations were part of the superfluous text and did not support the article that had stood unchanged for eight months; the only exception is one citation which I am in fact grateful for: the Dugger and Dodd book I beleive you footnoted--previously it was only listed in the references section. These "citations" certainly do not justify a revert away from the succinct, focused, NPOV version which I brought back yesterday--in fact, they are a clear step down by any standard.  Again, you have every opportunity to look up the appropriate citations for what was already there--I've seen the source material for every statement in the article, it's just a matter of digging up the passages in the literature and citing them.  If you need help with that or have questions about where to look, please let me know.
69.115.162.235 19:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Superfluous Additions

message: Dear Wilburwebber,
Before I begin please note, pasted for your review below, the strict standards of scholarship and NPOV integrity of Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons:
:"This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard."
Use your imagination to see if this policy might in this case extend to H.W. Armstrong, considering there is an offshoot group of the WCG that has their college named after him, and that owns the copyrights to all his major books and booklets. That group seems to be increasing in profile--I think their television program is ranked third or fourth in ratings among U.S. religious broadcasts, and recently they've been advertising their book on the legacy of Armstrong (called Raising the Ruins) during Fox's O'Reilly factor on a nightly basis. Do you really think Wikipedia is going to take any chances with libel if they have to intervene?
I'll begin my reply by stating that I do not wish to come off as condescending or "arrogant" as you put it, but my "arrogant” preference to steer the discussion toward the "scholarly" and "professional" quality of the editing was ultimately vindicated by your recent accusation that I must have some conflict of interest connection to the material facts. Please realize your arguments will stand or fall according to profession editing standards for an encyclopedia and on nothing else, like it or not.  Personal attacks against me only strengthen my argument, I believe. I do certainly know the Wikipedia community frowns upon direct personal attack as to a particular editor’s identity and standing relationship with the material facts—something I have not done to you and could have, given your focus on certain issues that are tangential to what is supposed to be a concise article on the life of H.W. Armstrong. I’ll leave it at that because you can discern my reference though few else would.
Also, a concerned individual who reads and edits in Wikipedia has every right to question the professional quality of the edits of this article.  And I'll add that such a person can criticize the POV tone, without getting into the personal identity of a specific editor and challenging them on that. I have in fact made generalizations about clear bias in the overall editing in the past before I got involved here and with the WCG article, and make no apology for it. I have made references to the edits of an individual giving the article an overall appearance of religious bigotry—but I never directly attacked the person or brought up their identity and connection to the subject matter as an issue. Again, our arguments stand or fall on their own merit.
I will say that I've already taken the time to exhaustively expound on the issues at hand, but I’ll address a couple things.
You make references, line by line, of me taking out things you added, and you protest a couple instances where details you added were not honored, but replaced by “soft peddling” statements, lacking NPOV.  Again, let me first say that, given the fact that the article had been laboriously cleaned up, and stood respected and unchallenged for many months, you might want to consider the appropriateness of you first explaining the merit and usefulness of your sweeping changes before you go on an all out attack against those who reverted it only partially to what was there before. Others had labored before you on this article with sincerity, and again, their efforts had stood respected and unchallenged for many months. Your boast that you brought in fully cited, factual material is disingenuous in the context of the fact that you only cited your own additions which as has been noted are problematic on other levels (And I'll discuss that further below), rather than add citations to what was already there and factual, but  simply not cited for lack of time. In my previous post I invited you to help cite what was already there, but you have no comment on that or interest in it apparently. Instead you deleted large portions of what was there. 
All this certainly doesn’t mean the article didn’t need improvement: for instance, at the time you came in with your edits, there was no reference to anything positive H.W. Armstrong had ever been involved in through the Church (humanitarian projects, friendships with world leaders, the world class concert series etc etc), and had been that way since when I first got involved back in October; your sweeping additions and edits to virtually every section somehow failed to correct that glaring omission, but instead added many details. Nevertheless I finally was motivated (and had the time) to correct that omission—after all, he was famous in the world precisely because of such things, and would not be in Wikipedia otherwise. A ridiculous omission really--I should have taken care of it sooner. You seem very intelligent and have written eloquently of objectivity, so I'm surprised you didn't help out there, haven't mentioned it, and haven't congratulated the editors for getting it in there.
As you know, the article had been cleaned up of heavy and ugly POV tone which was worse than simple POV, and you acknowledge that.  That tone was suggestive of ‘Armstrong bashing”, and religious bigotry by extension; of course many people did not like his beliefs about Christianity and about modern education, so it is not surprising. But it is inappropriate as you noted, and it hurts the reputation of Wikipedia which many have labored to build up.
One way this heavy POV tone was manifested was the practice of cramming in trivial details—trivial by any encyclopedic standard (please see the article on Martin Luther) which were of a consistent negative tone and that created a misleading description of a man that many regard as successful, sincere, and honorable—including royalty and heads of state, and the ignoring of that favorable recognition by editors of this article is, frankly, a disgrace. 
These negative sounding details reigned, which were filled to the brim with innuendo.  For instance, “He married a woman forty years younger.” Wow, he must have been another hypocritical Christian religious leader, less immune to lust and shallowness than he let on, marrying such a vixen (he was of course already elderly himself and she pushing middle age, details left out both by you and the stewards of the intense bigotry of the past in this article.)
A historian’s responsibility is not limited to simply checking the facts and gathering them, he is bound by the obligation to choose which facts have the floor, knowing that the perception and understanding of the reader is greatly shifted by the inclusion or exclusion of them, and worse, can be easily manipulated by those unscrupulous enough to do so motivated by an axe to grind or worse, whether they admit it to themselves and or others or not. 
Including a reference to "Armstrong having his ministerial credentials revoked” is problematic because is suggests scandalous, disgraceful behavior, yet at the same time, for such a short article, it is impractical and inappropriate to give the facts surrounding all the politics of that situation their full breathing space. Please read the last part of that sentence again about the lack of practicality. So it gets left out and I make no apology for that. Overall, your analysis is way off there for other reasons. His stated reason for starting the church--verified by his actions over his life--was that he felt God was using him in some special way, and he planned to proclaim the gospel as he understood it to the largest audience possible.  He also had irreconcilable differences with the Church of God (Seventh Day) ministry over his manuscript for what became later  The U.S. and Britain in Prophecy--the Church of God leadership told him they would not publish it, though they believed it's merit. He said in his autobiography that he was bewildered by their reaction and he felt it had to be proclaimed. He also wondered why they had such limited knowledge of the gospel biblically as he felt he understood it, and he certainly was going to go on one way or another to proclaim it.
Let me ask you something:  Why the attention to negative details and innuendo, yet no references to what REALLY made him controversial to begin with? The article has a link to a page describing his teachings, but it certainly wouldn’t be wrong to bring a direct and fair treatment of him as a controversial figure into this article more. It could be a separate section. But there is nothing from you on this—nothing--just the negative, suggestive details crammed into the text, breaking up the flow, and an odd focus on the Church of God (Seventh Day).  If your interested in creating a full, useful article that’s balanced and fair, why do you ignore the famous and  controversial aspects of his beliefs and teachings that riled Christians and made him disliked by some—the beliefs that made him a noteworthy figure? It certainly would appear to a reasonable person that if you approached Armstrong in that fashion, you would be forced to deal with the facts in the open, conventionally, in an NPOV way, wouldn’t you? No passing digs filled with innuendo could occur there. Even the controversial details could be explored in a reasonable, balanced way there. The POV history of this article is that many editors think it is far better to launch indirect salvos, typified by negatively suggestive “facts”. 
Again, please read encyclopedia articles on Mozart to get a feel for appropriate subject matter—start with a classic like Britannica. It focuses not on sensationalistic details like you desire to bring in, such as the age differential between Armstrong and his wife, but rather on what made the person of note in the first place—the reason why the figure was included in the encyclopedia at all.  Again, your edits were not only awkward and tangential, you removed a lot of interesting material about the man, and instead put in POV material creating the strong appearance of Armstrong bashing/religious bigotry--and you don’t seem to get that, so there isn’t any need to talk about it further. 
Though in Mozart's case it actually has in fact been universally established by scholarly authorities that he did in fact largely live a truly "scandalous" life (as opposed to Armstrong), especially for that time, you will find that article to be entirely focused on the unique activities, works and accomplishments that made him famous, influential, and interesting to begin with. It was his life's work that made him a subject of interest and study, and therefore is the very reason why in the first place he would be included at all in such an encyclopedia. Therefore, how much less appropriate is it to include unsubstantiated hearsay, from extremely venomous sources at that? I'm not saying you have done that--you may have--but others definitely have. And again, even items that are technically correct.  I'll give two brief examples of ho these can and have been used in an inappropriate manner: First is the aforementioned references to the age of the woman he married after his first wife died, coupled with other attempts at innuendo. The other example is past brief  additions referencing his lack of a college degree and reverses in his advertising business, while ignoring facts about his considerable successes in advertising, the circumstances surrounding his later reverses, and his impressive self education--something which anyone can see in his writings, manifested in his formidable knowledge of the arts, philosophy and history. Of course he evidently devoted his post-conversion life to education. So context makes a huge difference when it comes to POV.  It should be added that these negatively toned "factual" additions were done by editors whose immediate edit history included nothing remotely "positive" in tone about the man's accomplishments at any point in his life, let alone in business or education. We need not go further about how easy it can be to tell what the spirit of an addition or deletion really is. 
You had two basic ways you could have responded to the alterations on your massive edits, and like it or not the path you’ve chosen says a lot about whether the good faith assumption is still in effect toward you. You could have suggested to the editors a way we could bring those details in that would be both apropos for an article of such concise length, and yet fair in the context (that is, not appearing as passing digs or, more importantly, suggestive of more than what they actually signified in the original historical context of the surrounding  events--analyzed from an honest, objective standpoint). Instead, you launched into accusations against those who altered your sweeping edits.
As far as the “unsubstantiated” assertion by me on the talk page about the hoarding of 1 billion in tithe money by the WCG leadership after Armstrong died, I would ask you to please read again my comments carefully.  You will see that I mentioned the book Raising the Ruins, a book that is footnoted to the gills with references to source material gained in the court case versus the WCG, where a mountain of internal WCG emails, memo’s, published material, and financial statements had to be turned over to the PCG lawyers as part of the discovery process. Those do not lie, though people can be biased and people can lie. Read my postings on the book on other pages connected to Armstrong and the WCG. The fact that no one who edits these articles has made a single comment on or response to my numerous postings on the tremendous new source material, expounded on in Raising the Ruins through hundreds of footnotes, is all the evidence one really needs of a POV problem in the area of religious discrimination, though I have provided much more evidence on this page.
To sum up for you what was revealed in the court case, the WCG leadership was extensively shown to have simultaneously planned to completely change the doctrines of the church and its overall involvement in humanitarian projects, and at the same time were demonstrably shown in the court case to have deliberately and systematically concealed the plans to make these sweeping changes--and then lied--also systematically--about the changes as they began to happen so that people thought nothing was wrong and continued to send in their tithes and offerings which the WCG leadership was happy to collect--all this between 1986 and 1991 (worth noting is the the "circumstantial" evidence that showed the planning of this was going on before Armstrong even died, and is overwhelming in its part). After that, people started to leave in droves, and the WCG leadership was of course left behind with the money, and no one knows where it went--there is nothing to show for it as I pointed out--they ceased the humanitarian projects and stopped publishing and distributing the literature for free, and fired employees. In fact, they even did a fire sale of the churches assets, including selling off the Ambassador Auditorium.
You’ll notice a strange lack of interest in that book as source material, despite the abundance of primary source documents it cites—normally a researches dream. Go to the discussing pages of the Joseph Tkach Senior article, as well as scanning this discussion page, ad you find several attempts on my part to stir up some discussion on that book, which only came out last November.  Yet not a single reply from any of the editors who have "owned" these articles. Not one!  No references or discussion anywhere! It's astounding. Aren’t you interested in getting such fabulous source material?  Again, it’s loaded with references to internal documents and finances that had to be exposed during the court case, and the WCG has certainly not sued them for slander or defamation of character—read the book yourself and you’ll see why: they’d get creamed.  
Again, if you are anxious to get balance and all the facts in there, where were you when the article was in dire need of references to positive things about the man--the humanitarian projects, the positive and fascinating recognition from leaders around the world, and the contributions to the arts? What have you ever contributed to this article in that area?
I can’t and won't take the time to rebut and dismantle through logic every single line by line point you wish to bring up now or in the future. My overall characterization of the additions you made (and your deletes) has covered all bases. If you think there was one or two additions you made that don't fit the description I have given, then you'll find that I probably already left them in. 
If you wish to carry on a back and forth on this matter further in the manner that you have to this point, you will find that I’ll not be responding any further. You can have the last word if you like.
Jebbrady 06:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Reply to Wilberweber

message: Lisasmall,
You chastised me for bringing debate and "antogonsit rhetoric" into this page.  This is an oppotunity to invite readers to scroll back and have a look. It's actually great stuff, and will be an interesting and exciting read for most familiar or unfamiliar with this subject.
I have manifestly shown no hostility to you as a person, I've been quite warm--I show a robust aversion to your thought process and approach to the subject at hand--including the discussion page where you talk past my comments rather than take them on or acknowledge them in any way--but it's most certainly not antagonism toward you personally and my comments show that. I understand your concerns and where you are coming from when you approach Armstrong and the Church he led, believe me, but I separate the actions from the actor in my attitude as much as I can humanly.
Moving on, I've been lauded by a third party for raising a few sparks--nothing wrong with that. Readers will enjoy learning more about the subject, and the history of this article.  They can scroll back to an exchange involving Realhistbuff and the aforementioned third party as well for that edit history.
I've received more than a few broadsides from you on this page. In any case, the "antagonistic rhetoric" on this page doesn't even rate a comparison to the language you used in some of your initial article edits. To be honest, I've really held back in saying what I really thought of it--I've been cordial and diplomatic. What I've presented is a strong, intellectually robust rebuttal and that will only seem antagonistic to the one who is getting their head handed to them in the exchange--and taking you on like that is more than worth it and appropriate, becasue it's better for Wikipedia than ending up with the rhetoric we saw in the article on 7-19 and 7-20-2007 (i.e. the way the Time quote was set up, discussed earlier).
208.253.158.36 17:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Robust editorial discourse versus "antagonistic rhetoric"

message: The former title I put up was from H. W. Armstrong's perspective really, and so wasn't a fully NPOV perspective. It's now "Controversy with ministry and new direction" rather than "Oppostion from the ministry and new Direction" though he definitly reecived doctrinal opposition, I want to be avoid trouble on this if at all possible.
Hope this change suits the Church of God(Seventh Day) enthusiasts. 
The new section still includes what was recently added (by jere I believe), clarifies the the controversy from a neutral perspective, and yet adds some citations which we have been admonished to do. It can not get any more NPOV now. Armstrong's autobiography imputes no deliberate, premeditated wrongdoing on the part of the leadership of the Church of God, though he felt the "spirit world" was influencing emotions and actions, and felt two lower ranking ministers had dealt with him unfairly.  None of that was not put into the passage. Overall, it's not all that important or interesting, and ideally the entire subject of his transition from the Churhc of God to the radio Church of God could one day be replaced with more interesting things about his wife's roll in this transition period.
Please don't start a revert war over this issue--someone already tried to wipe out this section--and it had five or six citations! I'll will alert Josi to the issue.  Everyone chill out.
69.115.162.235 00:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: New section has new title

message: I think that the sonnet and supporting text that keep being inserted are not appropriate for this article, as they fall under the heading of original research. Is there consensus for removing it?--SarekOfVulcan 18:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that the John Milton sonnet should be removed, because there is no citation showing its relevance to the subject of the article, Herbert W. Armstrong. EdJohnston 19:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sonnet 

message: :-Edjohnson and Lisasmall,
:I tried to edit form work on my lunch break. Not exactly scandalous, Lisa :o) 
:Please bear with this rather lengthy response--it's a big and important subject for Wikipedia and I want to provide a little background. 
:First, as far as Lisasmall's following statement: "maybe you'd be able to get through (to Jebbrady) where I, as a novice to this kind of conflict, have failed", I would just say that my view, not surprisingly, is in disagreement with the implication of that. A quick read of my recent postings shows that I have been more than reasonable and fair, and I'll add that I've held back from expressing what I really think on more than one occasion.  Thus, keeping the debate to the quality of the edits and standards of scholarship of Lisasmall's recent additions, I have admittedly been robust in my description of my deep problems with the edits.
:I make no apology that my aim is to win the debate in the arena of editorial legitimacy. 
:Before I give some background and make a plea, I would like to venture a supposition: A religious leader is either a charlatan or is sincere--there is no in between. The clear, overwhelming preponderance of the evidence is that Armstrong was the latter. The tone of the article cannot have it both ways. The practice of the editors who at one time took a kind of ownership of this article was to cram in unsubstantiated, uncited innuendo suggestive of Armstrong being a religious hypocrite and charlatan, without ever actually addressing or exploring the issue directly and honestly. Meanwhile, these editors--as seen in the September version of the article--managed to not make a single mention of anything remotely positive that Armstrong had ever been involved in through the Church--and there were many well known humanitarian initiatives, as well as truly surprisingly illustrious honors he received from heads of state. Heavy innuendo and hearsay without citations, and nothing positive. Not a single mention. (These positives are listed now with citations.) 
:Therefore Wikipedia ultimately has a decision to make: Is it fair and legitimate to characterize this religious figure as a "Charlatan", or will it instead be as a religious figure who was "sincere, but disliked by some." If arbitrators ultimately go with a charlatan angle against a reasoned look at all the evidence, then the appearance of Wikipedia being used as a platform for people who don't like certain religious beliefs will be back. That is something I had vigorously fought to get rid of. 
:So Wikipedia does have a decision to make, and a lot of people are and will be watching; Armstrong still has thousands of supporters and followers from all walks of life who know about the "critics" yet respect him greatly yet soberly, and some of the heads of state he was close friends with are still alive. A high profile church owns and distributes for free all the books he wrote, and they've named their liberal arts college after him.
:I respect Wikipedia and use it frequently, and I'm tired of hearing people knock it. Let's make sure we do our homework and stay objective in this controversy.
Jebbrady 02:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Sockpuppet and Religious Charlatan

message: Will the other editors on this page go along with my removing the bold font from their comments and replacing it with normal font?  I need to read this page carefully to see what's been going on and I find the bold face exhausting. I would need at least two favorable responses before going ahead with this plan. Thanks, EdJohnston 03:24, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: yes go right ahead. I'm the culprit. I had my reasons at the time but I have discontinued that practice.
Jebbrady 12:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

text: yes, thanks. -- Lisasmall 22:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks to both of you for the responses. I did about half the page, and I also moved signatures to the end of their respective comments, since otherwise it wasn't always clear who said what. Will continue this later. EdJohnston 04:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Can I have permission to remove bold type from this Talk page? 

message: Substituted at 19:58, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment