Talk:Fertility rite

message: I have added some referenced material on Arabia.Cpsoper (talk) 19:21, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Arabia

message: The article mention:
:'cooking a kid in the milk of its mother, a Canaanite custom which Mosaic law condemned and formally forbade'
This Mosaic law is the reason that dairy products are not mixed with meat in kosher meals. Here kid seems a wrong translation of the Torah, which refers to a cow and her son. I am not a native speaker to understand if kid here has that meaning. Anyway, it is not clear what this has to do with fertility rites — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.233.106.133 (talk) 12:03, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The passage alluded to, Deut.14.21 refers to a young goat, a kid.Cpsoper (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  kid? is this correct for the baby of a cow? It seem a wrong translation 

message: There is no description of any fertility rite. 
It is confusing sexuality in religion with fertility rites. 
Many references but no solid text.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.233.106.133 (talk) 14:59, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: The editor needs to remember the definition in the lede, the page concerns itself with rites that 'reenact, either actually or symbolically, sexual acts and/or reproductive processes'.Cpsoper (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT Fertility Rites not sexuality in religions 

message: This article is a MESS Armin1718 (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Would you care to make some specific and constructive suggestions for improving it? Cpsoper (talk) 23:00, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: THIS ARTICLE IS A MESS

message: Hill's 'Eastern definitions: A Short Encyclopedia of Religions of the Orient', p 207: 'hanifs...circumambulated nude, going around the structure  seven times counterclockwise, a practice (except for the nudity) still observed.' I have removed the lack of validation label. Cpsoper (talk) 20:32, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I see two Hadith sources bear this out. , it may be worth adding reference to these. Cpsoper (talk) 20:34, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

text: I also notice you made claims about Kaaba as a supposed goddess in pre-Islamic times and Black Stone as a vulva. While they are notable, there is no connection with fertility rites asides from your own claims. Ajaraman (talk) 14:06, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The assertion the Kaaba bears resemblance to the vulva is noted in several citations. The observation that a female deity was worshipped in Mohamed's time is made by Ibn Ishaq, as translated by Guillaume. That nude circumambulation around a vulva-like structure has no sexual content is a subject for discussion perhaps, but given it is asserted by two authors as a reenactment of or imitation a sexual act, this certainly meets the definition given here previously for a fertility rite. The definition has recently been pruned, in a way that has been disputed, see above. You have removed well sourced and encyclopaedic material. We've only documented the roots of current observance, though it is noteworthy, than even today circumabulation is obligatorily performed by men without their underwear, so some resemblance to the tradition persists . Cpsoper (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The Kaaba is not a vulva-like structure, it is a cube-like structure which we all know about and others accept. The Black Stone might be, but the gilded frames used to claim it have been added to it in The Islamic period for its protection. Whether Kaaba was worshipped as a female deity is a claim by Guillaume. You claim here that two authors note about being a reenactment of a sexual rite, actually no one did that. Whether underwear can be worn or not is disputed though many think it is not . The objective however is not preserving a pre-Islamic ritual, but not wearing anything with seams. It is abundantly clear that you have been making claims out of any source. Ajaraman (talk) 04:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

text:  Guillaume only translates Ibn Ishaq's account, noting Ishaq's use of the feminine to describe the Kaaba in a footnote ('O God do not be afraid', fn 'The feminine form indicates the Kaaba itself is addressed', p.85). The term Kaaba is used as metonymy. These two sources you removed indicate the highly sexualised nature of the worship involved, which defined a fertility rite at this page at the time of the edits. There are plenty of kinds of seamless underwear, can you give sources indicating why would any worshipper put these aside for a 'sacred' act? Cpsoper (talk) 08:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I read that well. "The feminine form indicates the Kaaba itself is addressed". Can you please tell me where at all they said it was regarding sex or it was a fertility rite? Earlier you said the authors asserted, now it is indicated. You know that well and for long you have been inserting your claims. This is clear your motivations aren't okay here. Ajaraman (talk) 09:14, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Ishaq cites al-Mughira invoking the Kaaba as Deity, 'O God', a feminine deity. The two cited sources you removed address your question about sexuality. Cpsoper (talk) 09:20, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That is a comment of Alfred Guillaume that Kaaba itself may be a deity, but regardless merely saying it is a goddess doesn't make it valid to insert in an article about fertility rite. You need others for that. Do you see the faulty methodology you have been applying for so long? At best you are making a connection on your own. Ajaraman (talk) 09:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: As for why Muslims must not wear anything except the ihram clothing, is seen as to refer to requiring one to be in a state of ritual purity (miqaat), to destroy the ego and be like one who is raised naked but then clothed during resurrection. , . Ajaraman (talk) 09:42, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I have added interpretations of two authors, Barnaby Rogerson and Benjamin Walker, about pre-Islamic Arabia. It is my hope that there will be no conundrum now. Also there's a paragraph about connection of growth of trees and Islamic traditions. Ajaraman (talk) 11:40, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: Circumambulation

message: The three examples mentioned in the section seem to be rather far-fetched, especially the Kreuzinger one. Nikolaj1905 (talk) 10:35, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  I suggest removal of the 'Contemporary analogues' section 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians!
User 46.97.176.155 had added a paragraph titled "Christian" about Jesus' parable of the sower and comparisons between agricultural themes and the belief in the resurrection of the dead. Interesting though these comparisons may be, I don't see what they have to do with fertility rites, as they do not describe actual rites or rituals and are only indirectly related to fertility. 
Nikolaj1905 (talk) 12:40, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  I removed the section on "Christian"