Talk:David Dinkins

message: Okay, there seems to be an 'edit war' going on here, and it's silly.
Question:  is the current photo (color image) in the Public Domain?  It was not listed as such when I checked. 
Quill 21:40, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: File:Frmr_NYC_Mayor_David_Dinkins_with_plaque.jpg
Since there seems to be a question over the current pic, I uploaded this PD pic to commons--might want to use it, especially if someone can remove the flag growing out of his head (and arse). Niteowlneils 03:34, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

text: Sorry, 'rewriting' other people's work is unethical and I won't do it.  Quill 07:56, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: A web search reveals several sites claiming his place of birth to be Trenton, New Jersey. I'm going to take a chance and add that, as no place of birth is currently mentioned. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 11:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Place of Birth

message: The second paragraph describes him as being part of an influential clique of african-americans. Especially considering the Wikipedia definition of clique, that description seems POV to me.--Anchoress 23:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: 'influential clique'?

message: After browsing this page, I find it hard-pressed to find anything outright positive Dinkins did.  The 'Mayoralty' section has precious few details aside from events that Dinkins seemingly had little blame in causing.  As well, I deleted a particularly racist statement about him supposedly getting a free pass for being black.  Puh-leeze. =//Turnquest 07:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: Many in New York City referred to him as the "Men's Room Attendant" -a blatantly racist appelation.  Shouldn't this be included? 71.249.13.251 20:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: To the best of my knowledge, the only peson who ever publically referred to Mayor Dinkins as a "Men's Room Attendant" was WABC radio talk show host Bob Grant. 24.168.116.248 05:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: "Men's Room Attendant" Slur and Racial Tensions

message: As of 11:13 pm ET on March 16, this article states that Dinkins died on March 7. I can't confirm that he is alive, but there has been no news coverage whatsoever of his "death" - and the links used as references for his "death" lead to blank pages on the websites of WABC and WNBC.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.89.184 (talk) 03:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's vandalism and it's been reverted. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Death?

message: He was at David Paterson's swearing in!  I'm changing it now - that's really horrible whoever did this.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.81.81.105 (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: He's not dead!

message: Amazing how negative and anti-Dinkins this article remains.  Perhaps if no-one can find citations or neutral phrasing Instead of listing a litany of bad things, the facts should be presented, plus opinion or commentary on them if necessary by cited sources.  Otherwise the only way to preserve NPOV will be to remove the listing of negatives. Slac speak up! 01:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The suggestion was to remove negatives only they couldn't be cited and phrased in a neutral manner.  This is well with Wikipedia's guidelines.  By stating that 'much' is true, you imply some things in the article are false, which should be removed.  Also, if much is true, than it should be no problem finding the requested cites. 24.187.214.210 (talk) 14:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Neutrality

message: A bit about Bob Grant saying something not nice about Dinkins has been inserted three times and removed as inappropriate. Grant is known for saying not nice things about all kinds of people; this is not a controversy, and it isn't even worthy of note. That's what Grant does, and he does it to well-known people and even bills himself as "the inventor of controversial talk radio". This article is not a place to collect a listing of things people who don't (or didn't) like Dinkins said about him. In addition, this is something like 20 years ago; if it really was a controversy, there should be cites to support that. Saying that Grant said something does not a controversy make.  Frank  |  talk  17:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Bob Grant

message: I reverted some of today's edits because of WP:V and WP:NOR concerns, and because some of them just didn't make sense.
* According to our source (Ebony magazine), Dinkins was raised by his mother and grandmother. If somebody wants to say he was raise by his father, bring a reliable source that says so. Likewise, our source doesn't say anything about where Dinkins was when WWII ended.
*The section about Dinkins' election was changed into a "some say, others say" format. That interchange raises concerns about original research. To avoid that problem, we usually summarize what one source says, then we summarize what another source says, and we attribute both opinions to their authors. Another problem is that both "sides" seem to say the same thing. Finally, the new material was sourced to a search result from Google Books. Please cite the specific page of New York magazine, so other readers can find the source you used.
— Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:38, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth (or facts). Please see WP:V. We don't write articles based on "if a, then b". We write articles based on what is actually published in reliable sources. We cannot accurately say that "magna cum laude" would "increase his stature"; besides, the man is 83 years old and perhaps doesn't need stature. Perhaps instead he is displaying some humility by downplaying the exact honor from 50+ years ago. The point is - we don't assume anything.  Frank  |  talk  13:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Today's edits 

message: Though a certain mythology has developed to paint Dinkins as the villain and Giuliani as the savior, this article is equally guilty of distortion, particularly on the area of crime.
Unlike what the opening paragraph states, crime under Dinkins did not decrease more than crime under any other mayor, but more than any other PREVIOUS mayor. Even the supposed source does not claim that crime dropped more under Dinkins than under any other mayor afterward. It says "According to NYPD statistics, crime in New York City took a downturn starting around 1990 that continued for many years, shattering all the city’s old records for consecutive-year declines in crime rates." The downturn BEGAN during Dinkins, but anybody who can read a chart can see that crime decreased more during each of Giuliani's terms.
Similarly, it is misleading to refer only to decreases in crime during the Dinkins administration without putting them in proper context - a general INCREASE in crime even from the crime-ridden Koch administration and New York City's pinnacle in crime. While he certainly deserves credit - and quite a bit more than he is given in the press - for the past 20 years' decrease in crime, this article currently provides only praise and reads like a list of accomplishments, particularly on the subject of crime.Deepestfury (talk) 02:43, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Dinkins took office on January 1, 1990, and crime rose in 1990 as a result of trends begun under Dinkins' predecessors. His policies were put into practice in 1990, and according to FBI and NYPD statistics, which are footnoted in the listing - Langan, Patrick A.; Matthew R. Durose (December 2003). "The Remarkable Drop in Crime in New York City" (PDF). International Conference on Crime. Retrieved November 15, 2007. "According to NYPD statistics, crime in New York City took a downturn starting around 1990 that continued for many years, shattering all the city’s old records for consecutive-year declines in crime rates" (see Appendix tables 1 and 2) - crime decreased every month for the last 36 months of the Dinkins administration.Pk800 (talk) 00:50, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Then say that. The source does not say that crime "decreased more dramatically and more rapidly than at any time in modern New York City history", the claim you keep inserting even though several editors have pointed out it is not supported by reliable sources. Fat&Happy (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

text: The section below a) had no consensus, merely two differing opinions of anon IPs, and b) was not in regard to the current claim in the lede where you insist the source says something it does not say. The person who wrote the preface to Dinkins's autobiography for him is no more an unrelated third-party reliable source than the person who co-wrote the book with/for him. Fat&Happy (talk) 01:15, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

text: Nobody is questioning the NYPD statistics, merely your POV interpretation of them. Riggio may be the world's greatest businessman; that doesn't make him personally a reliable source for things he has no expertise in, like the NYPD's crime statistics, and self-serving claims in an autobiography aren't exactly reliable sources either. Fat&Happy (talk) 01:57, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

text: The statement that crime fell "more dramatically and more rapidly than at any time in modern New York City history" needs to be properly sourced. The problem is that it's not. Attributing it to a table of numbers in an FBI report seems to violate WP:No original research (but see WP:CALC). — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dinkins and Crime 

message: This section is a list of the "accomplishments" of the Dinkins administration without any criticism.
The four years of the Dinkins mayoralty were the four highest years of crime in New York City's history - a fact that is glossed over. This article reads like Dinkins campaign literature.
Furthermore, it is false to state that crime declined more, or at a greater rate, under Dinkins than under any other mayor, as this paragraph states. It is more than any PREVIOUS mayor.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepestfury (talk • contribs) 05:47, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  NPOV Dispute [Mayoralty] 

message: Since this article often admits it disagrees with conventional wisdom about what a disaster Mr. Dinkins was as mayor, we need an explanation of how that mistake happened. Why is he remembered, as the article implicitly admits, as the ineffectual mayor who presided while NYC sank to its nadir in half a dozen ways? Why did New Yorkers sweep a Republican into office after him, and why was Giuliani considered a savior, at least in the press and the public mind. Perhaps it is racism against Dinkins? Wiki can't just publish an article which flies in the face of public opinion and memory without explaining why that mistake happened, and still persists. Profhum (talk) 02:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why does the rest of the world have it all wrong about Dinkins as Mayor? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: Editors first discussed this issue more than three years ago. (See Dinkins And Crime above.) The consensus was that editor Pk800 needed to produce other sources to back up the claim that "Under Dinkins' Safe Streets, Safe Cities program, crime in New York City decreased more dramatically and more rapidly, both in terms of actual numbers and percentage, than at any time in modern New York City history." (The source for this claim is Dinkins' own memoir, A Mayor's Life.) Several problems exist with this source:
1) The reference is in the book's forward, written by Barnes & Noble Chairman Leonard Riggio, who has no credentials in criminology, policing, political science, or any other field connected with crime. 
2) Riggio doesn't cite any sources for his assessment of Mayor Dinkins' crime-fighting prowess.
3) The article's claim doesn't correspond to Riggio's statement, which reads: "crime began [emphasis added] dropping at a faster rate during Mayor Dinkins's tenure than during any other time in the history of New York City." Riggio says nothing about "actual numbers" or "percentage." 
In three years, no additonal sources have been cited to support Pk800's claim. Unless further sources can be found, I think the claim should be deleted. Thoughts? Scaleshombre (talk) 06:09, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, as I did three years ago. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 15:21, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is what a couple of POV pushers are trying to get me blocked for. Telling a true story! Here are the first couple lines from Dinkins autobiography chapter 9: Crime was New York City's number one problem when I was elected mayor. The size of the police department had dwindled under my predecessor, Ed Koch, and crime had risen. In fact, when I entered office crime in New York City had been on an uninterrupted climb for fifteen years. Despite the NYPD's best efforts, there had been 2246 homicides in 1989, 211,130 burglaries, and 91,571 aggravated assaults. 
The police department did not dwindle under Koch it increased 3300 from 1980-1989.(appendix table 3 of Langan) The 2246 murders were a record and happened in 1990 during Dinkins term (1990-1993) NOT in 1989 during Koch's(1978-1989). The 211,130 burglaries were a record in 1980 and had fallen sharply during Koch's term to 121,322 by 1989. And there have never been close to 91,571 aggravated assaults in NYC history, where he got that number from is anybodies guess. (These figures appendix table 1 Langan)http://www3.istat.it/istat/eventi/2003/perunasocieta/relazioni/Langan_rel.pdf  further corroborating RS: http://nymag.com/news/features/crime/2008/42603/index5.html  http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/31/nyregion/record-year-for-killings-jolts-officials-in-new-york.html  
So are we to believe that Dinkins facts are all wrong yet when he proclaims in the same chapter that "Under the Dinkins administration, crime in New York City decreased more dramatically and more rapidly than at any time in previous New York City history" that is a FACT?Aceruss (talk) 22:45, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

text: . Sorry, but I stopped reading at that point. You must stop attacking other editors. Attacks will never convince anyone of anything. Carefully read WP:AGF. Objective3000 (talk) 13:48, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Objective3000 It dosen't seem like you assume good faith on my part? I have tried to be nice to you many times and will again here. It is you and MalikShabazz who have reverted my many different types of attempts at editing PK800s edits which he had zero consensus for and uses Dinkins autobiography as his source. MalikShabazz has on this very page argued against PK800s edits. You have said you don't know PK800 and thought his edits were deleted a long time ago. They are not neutral edits as well which is a key Wikipedia principle. As I said on the other page if you revert the Giuliani pages paragraphs to before PK800's edits I will not edit the Giuliani sections in question for at least a year. You, MalikShabazz and many of the editors who complained about PK800 can do the same on this page or work something else out here. I regret if you feel I attacked you, remember I have been at this 8 months you 8 years (or longer).Aceruss (talk) 18:40, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Aceruss, I just looked back again at every post PK800 made. Effusive text added by that editor is no longer in the Giuliani article. What remains is neutral. It is you that have tried, repeatedly, to add effusive material that does not belong in an encyclopedia. Further, you keep trying to add material about Dinkins that may be a BLP violation as it falsely suggests that Dinkins let crime run wild. We don’t know why you are doing this. But, seven editors have reverted you on the Giuliani article, additional editors on related articles, and you have received nine warnings and a previous block for this. Considering that the article is under discretionary sanctions; it’s amazing you haven’t been blocked. Seriously, you need to stop attacking editors and start listening. Objective3000 (talk) 19:18, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Objective3000 Let's keep this simple. You say that PK800s changes are no longer in the Giuliani article. That is not correct. They are here in the Dinkins article and in others including the Giuliani article. What I will do is change the Giuliani page paragraph to exactly what it was the day before PK800 edited it with no discussion or consensus. Fair enough?Aceruss (talk) 16:58, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: What exact change are you proposing? Objective3000 (talk) 17:59, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

text: And why is a change to another article being proposed and discussed here? It should be discussed on that article's talk page. As I told you long ago, Aceruss, we don't make horse trades over edits. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:51, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not horse trading. It's there are two related issues. 1) PK800s edits were contentious. 2) The edits don't belong on other pages as there are zero accomplishments good or bad of other mayors listed on any other NYC mayors Wikipedia pages, except the ones about Dinkins on Giuliani's page put in by PK800. My proposal is simple: I will revert the paragraph on Giuliani's page to before PK800s edits. Then everyone can debate on this page what should happen to PK800s Dinkins edits on this page whether they belong on this page and if so in what fashion. I would certainly go with the majority. Sound reasonable?Aceruss (talk) 20:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Again, you are on the wrong page. You cannot debate a change to an article on another article's talk page. Objective3000 (talk) 22:29, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Is Dinkins' memoir RS for crime stats?  

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: As a clarification was asked about what needed more sources,
# 
: Appears unreferenced in the lead, but is not referenced in the article body either.
# 
: Unreferenced
# 
: Unreferenced
# 
: Unreferenced
# 
: Unreferenced, tagged
# Citywide tickets on which Dinkins ran
: The entire section is unreferenced. Although there are references previously on the text about Dinkins running on the elections, there is no reference for the other people running on his ticket mentioned in this section. If it is found in the references scattered throughout the text about his campaigns, the correct ones should be cited here (I didn't check all of them to see if they had this info)
# 
: Unreferenced, and unecessary namedropping
# Personal life
: Most of the section is unreferenced
Saturnalia0 (talk) 01:29, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  More sources needed