Talk:Anarchism and Islam

message: Perhaps it would be better to whittle this down to elements which were more purely Anarchist and Musilm. Hakim Bey seems relevant but I'm not sure if he says he is Muslim. Yakoub Islam seems to fit the bill. And possibly a discussion of the Green book. But other elements seem to fit better in an article about liberal Islam, or revolutionary movements within Islam (e.g. Shariati) or leftist tendancies.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.70.79.124 (talk) 22:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

message: I am replacing the npov tag. While i initially thought that it's placement was vandalism/nonsense, I now realize that it was placed because the article reads like the script of an after-school special. This article needs to be cleaned up as well, and I will do as best as I can before I must leave the country this afternoon. --jonasaurus 17:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV tag

message: I've added a lot of new stuff and I'll try to clean up the old text a bit (can be found under "Modern Muslim Anarchism and the Internet"). I'm interested in feedback. I've moved the stuff about Yakoub Islam to a new article and I've also removed the NPOV and cleanup tags, as the article looks much cleaner and more complete now. Funkybeat 03:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Clean up

message: As both Sunni and Shia strands of Islam developed into authoritarian ideologies,...
Can this be elaborated? Sunni and Shi'a Islam developed in very different ways, with one the key differences being the Shi'a belief in a hereditary leadership while the Sunni believed leaders should be chosen through consensus. As far as I know, much of the anti-auhoritarian ideals of anarchism are actually compatable with Sunni tradition in Islam. --Yodakii 07:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: A good question, and perhaps the wording should be changed. What I meant was that many Muslims today, whether Sunni or Shi'a, live rather authoritarian lives, whether in family matters, or governmental policies. The selection of leaders is in itself an authoritarian act, as is the application of Sharia laws, common throuhout Sunni history. Wahabism is itself a part of Sunni Islam. You are right, many anarchist ideals are in fact compatible with Sunni tradition, but the way Sunni Islam is mostly practiced today is quite authoritarian. Of course, if you have insight which would help here, you are welcome to contribute. There are very few people who are familiar with both Islam and anarchism. Funkybeat 21:14, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical Anarchist Tendencies in Islam 

message: Whoever has issues with neutrality should bring them up here so they can be discussed. Funkybeat 18:45, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Just a thought editors of Islam and anarchism may, or may not, find the article Christian anarchism helpful. Not in terms of content, just layout. --nirvana2013 09:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  The problem with an article like this one is that it's a controversial topic. Many anarchists are atheists and reject religion altogether. Many religious people believe in enforcement of religious laws and religious hierarchy. You cannot have an article about this topic without pointing out the issues of contention AND the issues of similarity. This is not meant to be a manifesto, but an article describing a certain ideology (muslim anarchism) with examples, and also pointing out how it fits within mainstream Islam (as far as such a thing exists) and mainstream anarchism (as far as such a thing exists). This is what I have tried to do, and improvements and discussion are welcome. Funkybeat 19:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: A general problem I am seeing in this article and the Christian Anarchism one is that while one can infinitely support an argument for a religious anarchism, there is no published material other than bits and scattered pieces here and there. I could run down all of the anarchistsic passages of the Qur'an in this article, and there are hundreds, but without anyone to cite as believing these to be anarchistic, what would that do. A lot of re-thinking how to do this article has to be done. Dionysius84 17:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The problem is that it is still a rather small movement, with very little published information. However, it is apparent that there are people out there who consider themselves Muslim anarchists, and there are several notable examples in the article. So the concept of "Muslim anarchism" certainly exists, and as such it should be covered by Wikipedia, to the best of our abilities. I like your changes, BTW, thanks for that.Funkybeat 19:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  This Whole Article 

message: I realize I'm in no way an expert or even especially knowledgeable on the topic of Islam, however the bits of this article that state a lack of hierarchies within Islam either ignores Shi'a Islam entirely, or just plain eats failure for dinner. Far as I know, though I can only support this from other Wikipedia articles, the Shias most certainly do have a system of hierarchical religious authority, and they're the second largest denomination of Islam and thus hardly something to gloss over! If it were up to me, I'd chop this article down to listings of Anarchist Islamic groups and movements and perhaps some paragraphs about how they're not exactly like whichever denominations of mainstream Islam they originated in. 88.112.3.21 16:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no central hierarchy in Shi'a Islam and certainly nothing that is even remotely similar to the Byzantine hierarchies of the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy. It is similar to Judaism in that there is a very loose and voluntary association of clerics and seminaries. So, there is a semblance of what you could call "hierarchy," but what it really comes down to is consensus. For example, the current Supreme Leader was granted the title of Grand Ayatollah (see Marja'), affirmed by several seminaries in Iran. However, the majority of Shi'a clerics do not recognize Khamenei as a bona fide Marja'. Laval (talk) 10:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Lack of hierarchies in Islam? 

message: What I added today are the bare-bones points Crone mentions in "Ninth-Century Muslim Anarchists". Basically they weren't individualists, secularists, revolutionaries, or socialists. They were an-archists in the classical sense of not having a leader or not wanting one.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeBryan (talk • contribs) 16:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Crone article 

message: I question whether this article is actually useful. I do not believe it touches deeply on the subject of Islam and Anarchism and the sections it does have are extremely weak/lacking.
For instance:
- the Kharijites section discusses about having a minimal government, or a system in which authority can be questioned. This is not anarchy. Anarchy is the elimination of government altogether. What this section touches upon is libertarianism/democracy if anything.
- The Najdiyya section seems to display some anarchist views but doesn't go into enough detail or give citations.
- How is Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan an anarchist or having anarchist tendencies? Advocating non-violence (in terms of militarily) does not make you an anarchist. I am sure billions are pacifists but you cannot therefore call them anarchists.
- Ali Shariati section is useless without citation and quotes. If he is not an anarchist, why mention his name, especially if no quotations/citations of any writings by him relating to anarchism.
- The Hardline section offers nothing to the article in knowing more about anarchy and Islam.
- I do not see how Hakim Bey's section is relevant
--Waqas1987 (talk) 00:52, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The inclusion of Lamborn Wilson (Hakim Bey) is totally irrelevant to this article as the man was never a Muslim to begin with, nor was he even a bona fide Sufi. Lamborn Wilson has a very bizarre and revisionist Orientalist view of Islam and Muslim societies to justify his pedophile/pederast advocacy, like his comrades Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs and Harry Hay who all supported the sexual abuse of children and adolescents by defending NAMBLA and other such organizations. He also grossly exaggerates his involvement with the Imperial Academy of Philosophy in the 1970s, and not a single traditionalist scholar has validated let alone verified his claims. Furthermore, not a single Traditionalist cleric in Iran (who were closely involved with the Academy) has ever even mentioned his name and contrary to his claim that he left Iran because of the Revolution (he left before even any uprisings occurred), former Academy scholars and staff have revealed that he was going to be arrested and deported as an undesirable alien due to complaints against him regarding his flagrant and shameless advocacy of pedophilia/pederasty, use of recreational drugs (in particular opium) and his crude promotion of sodomy and other scatological remarks. So there really isn't any justification to include him in this article. Laval (talk) 10:15, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Usefulness / Clean up needed 

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