Talk:Rafael Caro Quintero

message: I just wanted to post that Rafael is not the founder of the Sonora Cartel. This cartel was formed after the Guadalajara Cartel disintegrated (after his arrest). His brother headed this group, however.  ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 20:02, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sonora Cartel not founded by Rafael 

message: "Caro Quintero is a wanted fugitive in 190 countries, including the U.S. and Mexico. If arrested abroad, the drug lord will be immediately extradited to Mexico"
This statement is total propaganda. It's obviously not encyclopedic. Just pointing out the obvious in case anyone understands or cares. 143.215.116.164 (talk) 04:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Jaydubya93, I agree about the use of "drug lord" - in fact, I removed a number of instances of it. On the other point, hasn't his conviction been overturned, which is why he was released? I did read something that suggested that there were other convictions that hadn't been overturned, but it wasn't clear what they were. Neljack (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Neljack - thanks, I hope I didnt come off as overly=dogmatic in my first comment, but I feel very strongly that BLP subjects need to be provided with a great deal of deference - particularly those who have been accused of crimes or are otherwise socially ostracized. Anyway, you are of course right about the over-turning which has lead to his release. Whats murky for me at this point is - were all item of his original indictment overturned? If he had a multi-charge concurrent sentence, and some of those charges were already satisfied by time served, it wouldn't be uncommon for those to be left to stand. Further, as best I can tell US political pressure has lead to a new manhunt for the just-released Quintero. Its unclear what they will do if they find him; extradite, try under new charges or make some sort of double-jeopardy end run. All of the coverage of this has been incredibly skewed even by international drug war standards. (The Guardian said the US is "furious" over his release. Dallas News called it an "outrage"). 
We need to get our hands on some actual court documents IMO to make sense of this (assuming that is legal - I have no experience with the Mexican justice system). Once we have good reliable source material that isn't trial-by-newspaper, we should change the language addressing his legal status as best as possible. 
I still stand by my notion to remove "Alleged" based solely on editorial concerns and not factual ones. "Alleged" strongly implies an arrest without charge, a charge without trial, or an acquittal - none of which accurately depicts what happened with Quintero's case. The state has many advantages against the accused in a criminal proceeding. One of those advantages is that English doesn't have a word that describes someone as wrongly convicted (at least to my memory - please correct my mistake if I'm wrong!). We use words like "innocent" that have all sorts of connotations that make it easy to bar entry. IMO a NPOV here is a description of Quintero as illegally convicted as a criminal defendant but not innocent as a human being. Jaydubya93 (talk) 15:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: What?

message: Quintero spent 28 years in prison following his arrest, trial and conviction. Once a defendant in a trial is prosecuted successfully, allegations become convictions. That said, I realize Quintero was not convicted of drug trafficking or possession, which is why I have opted to simply remove alleged instead of change alleged to convicted. My point is that Quintero was charged with murdering a DEA agent. During his trial, the motive for this murder was established as protecting the interests of Quintero's drug trafficking business. He was then convicted of the murder with this motive established in court. Describing Quintero's activities using the sole adjective "alleged" is, I think, confusing to the reader, who is likely to assume based on that language that Quintero has not been convicted of anything narco-related. Dropping the alleged without adding convicted is the best resolution I could come up with for avoiding confusion while not insinuating Quintero was convicted of any additional crimes. I'm absolutely open to assistance, clarification and debate on this topic from other editors, though!
Further, the term "drug lord" is not an appropriate description for any subject of a living bio here on wikipedia. "Drug Lord" is language fit for tabloid headlines, not an encyclopedia. Before my changes, the term "Drug Lord" was used 25 times to describe Quintero. Most often, it was used as a pronoun, as in, "the Drug Lord". This pronoun usage, in particular, strikes me as loaded to the point of presenting NPOV issues.  Where this is the case I have simply used an actual pronoun (he) or the subject's name, Caro Quintero or simply Quintero. "Trafficker" is a more professional description of his activities, with the article itself providing clarification of his leadership role within his organization. Please note that I am not a Quintero apologist; my point is that, despite his crimes, Quintero is still the subject of a BLP and as such we must do our best to avoid weasel words and dehumanizing descriptions. 
Thanks Jaydubya93 (talk) 12:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Jaydubya93, I agree about the use of "drug lord" - in fact, I removed a number of instances of it. On the other point, hasn't his conviction been overturned, which is why he was released? I did read something that suggested that there were other convictions that hadn't been overturned, but it wasn't clear what they were. Neljack (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Neljack - thanks, I hope I didnt come off as overly=dogmatic in my first comment, but I feel very strongly that BLP subjects need to be provided with a great deal of deference - particularly those who have been accused of crimes or are otherwise socially ostracized. Anyway, you are of course right about the over-turning which has lead to his release. Whats murky for me at this point is - were all item of his original indictment overturned? If he had a multi-charge concurrent sentence, and some of those charges were already satisfied by time served, it wouldn't be uncommon for those to be left to stand. Further, as best I can tell US political pressure has lead to a new manhunt for the just-released Quintero. Its unclear what they will do if they find him; extradite, try under new charges or make some sort of double-jeopardy end run. All of the coverage of this has been incredibly skewed even by international drug war standards. (The Guardian said the US is "furious" over his release. Dallas News called it an "outrage"). 
We need to get our hands on some actual court documents IMO to make sense of this (assuming that is legal - I have no experience with the Mexican justice system). Once we have good reliable source material that isn't trial-by-newspaper, we should change the language addressing his legal status as best as possible. 
I still stand by my notion to remove "Alleged" based solely on editorial concerns and not factual ones. "Alleged" strongly implies an arrest without charge, a charge without trial, or an acquittal - none of which accurately depicts what happened with Quintero's case. The state has many advantages against the accused in a criminal proceeding. One of those advantages is that English doesn't have a word that describes someone as wrongly convicted (at least to my memory - please correct my mistake if I'm wrong!). We use words like "innocent" that have all sorts of connotations that make it easy to bar entry. IMO a NPOV here is a description of Quintero as illegally convicted as a criminal defendant but not innocent as a human being. Jaydubya93 (talk) 15:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed "Alleged", Changed "Lord" to "Trafficker"

message: This section was identical to the section in the article on the Guadalajara Cartel so I have deleted it. Nothing in it relates to Quintero and for that reason alone it should go. In addition, there are other problems of sourcing that are discussed on the talk pages of the Guadalajara Cartel article, and the Miguel Ángel Félix Gallardo talk page. Rgr09 (talk) 02:43, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  CIA-DFS section 

message: IP user 187.201.121.166 wrote this comment on the article on 17 November 2018. I've moved it here to archive it.
 	
Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1985-02-17/news/mn-3554_1_disappearances
MX (✉ • ✎) 20:58, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  17 November 2018: IP user comment 

message: This picture --->  is still visible on Commons. User:MX is stating that it should not be on Commons because of copyrights (and is deleting it from the page). As far as i know, the procedure here on wikipedia is that we show the picture as long as it is available on Commons (several other Wikipedia's are b.t.w. also showing it...).
Therefore: take action if you think the picture needs to be deleted from Commons, if it is deleted there it will be removed here as well. 
In the meantime i have replaced the picture. Kind regards, Saschaporsche (talk) 15:29, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  Good that you started the procedure to remove the picture from Commons. You apparently feel very strong about this. I just use "Common sense/the things/customs that i have seen here through the years. Therefore, i kept the picture since it was still available on Commons. Kind regards Saschaporsche (talk) 18:48, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  picture 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:52, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:24, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion 

message: It is best to say he is a "former drug trafficker" until actual, non-political themed neutral evidence comes forward suggesting otherwise. Unlike with bin Laden and 9/11, the Trump Administration has not presented evidence to back their claims that Rafael Caro Quintero is still a drug trafficking. Much claims of him being still being involved relate to plea bargains which were made to obtain lighter sentences. Even former DEA agent Mike Vigil has contradicted the more recent drug trafficking allegations.Mancalledsting (talk) 20:00, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Present-day allegations of Rafael Caro Quintero still being involved in drug trafficking are highly questionable 

message: To look at Rafael Caro Quintero's photo it seems questionable that he is not racially mixed. His appearance looks Mestizo part Mexican Indian. RichardBond (talk) 16:14, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Racial classification 

message: The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:51, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion