Talk:French conjugation

message: Can someone state the audience this article is written for? It flies off into the deep end and only gets deeper.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.23.26.209 (talk) 02:58, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Article not very accessable

message: I'm adding summaries of the different conjugations along with their pronunciations. I'm sure I've overlooked a few differences, for example in the -oir verbs, which I haven't added yet. I'll get to that in a day or so. kwami (talk) 23:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: It's looking good so far.  Though I wonder, after seeing your recent edit to the être section if, for example, serai should be represented as  or as .  The former seems to imply that the schwa is extra short or epinthetic while the latter implies that the schwa is either optional, has variable presence depending on dialect, or is somehow eliminated in certain contexts.  My crude understanding of French points towards the latter interpretations.  I also highly doubt that French makes a phonemic contrast between an extra short and non-short schwa.  Is there a justification for the superscript schwa?  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 08:54, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK it is influenced by dialect and register, but is also epenthetic. (Where the schwas are placed depends on dialect/register, but in some positions they are required by just about everyone.) It's also easier to read. I wouldn't care if someone changed it, though. kwami (talk) 09:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I'll go ahead and change it, then.  My French-English dictionary represents such "deletable" schwas with a perenthesis so that petit is  but peton is .  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  summaries 

message: This article needs some serious editing, and not wanting to criticize without offering any suggestions, here's my two cents:
===Structure===
*In French, verbs are not described based on their endings (it's rather a sub-description), but they are divided into groups and sections, as follows:
** 1st group (verbs ending in -er)
** 2nd group (verbs ending in -ir / gerund ending in -issant)
** 3rd group
*** 1st section (verbs ending in -ir / gerund ending in -ant)
*** 2nd section (verbs ending in -oir)
*** 3rd section (verbs ending in -re)
* To give more information about the frequency of occurrence of each group (question asked in a previous paragraph), here are a few notes:
** The first two groups are considered 'regular', meaning the verb morphology changes, for each group, in one predictable manner.
** The third group is considered 'irregular', as it contains the largest number of exceptions and irregularities.
** The third group, with its 350 or so verbs, is considered a 'dead' conjugation form, meaning:
** Most new verbs introduced to French are of the first group, ex: téléviser, atomiser, radiographier,...
** The third group also includes the verb aller (to go), the only verb ending in -er belonging to the third group.
* In its current form, the article sandwiches the verb être (to be) between some other two verbs, and that is completely misleading, and here's why:
The verbs être (to be) and avoir (to have) are the only verbs considered auxiliary, and they're used to form the compound tenses. So, They need to have a heading of their own, under which we should add to their conjugation the reasons why are verbs conjugated with either être or avoir for the compound tenses. But if we do include that section, we would have to link to or include the definiton of transitive, intrasitive, and pronominal verbs, concepts that are necessary for such information.
===Content===
* The verbs included as examples of conjugation shouldn't be so arbitrary (especially the few last ones.) Instead, we would choose one example each for the first two groups, and one for each section of the third group. Additionally, we would add the 2 auxiliaries and the verb aller as it's a notable exception.
* The conjugation tables in here  are restricted to the simple forms, and I don't see any logical reason behind this. As this article is about French conjugation, we should include all conjugated forms available. Since this is an encyclopedic entry, why give partial information for one subject? To make myself more clear, I'll list how the tables are formed in the "Bescherelle" book, the quintessential conjugation book that French-language students are taught with. (I'm including an example with this too.)
**Indicative (indicatif)
***Present (Présent) je vais                              
***Present Perfect (Passé composé) je suis allé
***Imperfect (Imparfait) j'allais
***Past Imperfect (Plus-que-parfait) j'étais allé
***Simple Past (Passé simple) j'allai
***Past Perfect (Passé antérieur) je fus allé
***Simple Future (futur simple) j'irai
***Future Perfect (futur antérieur) je serai allé
**Subjonctive (Subjonctif)
***Present (Présent) que j'aille
***Past (Passé) que je sois allé
***Imperfect (Imparfait) que j'allasse
***Past Imperfect (Plus-que-parfait) que je fusse allé
**Imperative (Impératif)
***Present (Présent) va
***Past (Passé) sois allé
**Conditional (Conditionnel)
***Present (Présent) j'irais
***Past (form I) (Passé 1ere forme) je serais allé
***Past (form II) (Passé 2eme forme) je fusse allé
**Infinitive (Infinitif)
***Present (Présent) aller
***Past (Passé) être allé
**Participle (Participe)
***Present (Présent) allant
***Past (Passé) allé / étant allé
I'm hoping someone will add comments, critiques, or suggestions to this entry, because seriously, this article needs work. Fadibk (talk) 17:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Structure and Content problems

message: * The verbs included as examples of conjugation shouldn't be so arbitrary (especially the few last ones.) Instead, we would choose one example each for the first two groups, and one for each section of the third group. Additionally, we would add the 2 auxiliaries and the verb aller as it's a notable exception.
* The conjugation tables in here  are restricted to the simple forms, and I don't see any logical reason behind this. As this article is about French conjugation, we should include all conjugated forms available. Since this is an encyclopedic entry, why give partial information for one subject? To make myself more clear, I'll list how the tables are formed in the "Bescherelle" book, the quintessential conjugation book that French-language students are taught with. (I'm including an example with this too.)
**Indicative (indicatif)
***Present (Présent) je vais                              
***Present Perfect (Passé composé) je suis allé
***Imperfect (Imparfait) j'allais
***Past Imperfect (Plus-que-parfait) j'étais allé
***Simple Past (Passé simple) j'allai
***Past Perfect (Passé antérieur) je fus allé
***Simple Future (futur simple) j'irai
***Future Perfect (futur antérieur) je serai allé
**Subjonctive (Subjonctif)
***Present (Présent) que j'aille
***Past (Passé) que je sois allé
***Imperfect (Imparfait) que j'allasse
***Past Imperfect (Plus-que-parfait) que je fusse allé
**Imperative (Impératif)
***Present (Présent) va
***Past (Passé) sois allé
**Conditional (Conditionnel)
***Present (Présent) j'irais
***Past (form I) (Passé 1ere forme) je serais allé
***Past (form II) (Passé 2eme forme) je fusse allé
**Infinitive (Infinitif)
***Present (Présent) aller
***Past (Passé) être allé
**Participle (Participe)
***Present (Présent) allant
***Past (Passé) allé / étant allé
I'm hoping someone will add comments, critiques, or suggestions to this entry, because seriously, this article needs work. Fadibk (talk) 17:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Content

message: Good to see some attention being devoted to this article. I think it is time to consider the division of labor between French conjugation and French verb morphology, because they are starting to overlap again.
Also, I have removed the following statements from the article because they are incorrect, or don't make sense to me.
*→ Auxiliary verbs: When the verb is qualified, avoir is used to express the action, ex: il a cassé l'assiette (he broke the plate), and when it's not qualified, être is used to express the result of this action, ex: l'assiette est cassée (the plate is broken).
:(I don't see any qualifiers/modifiers here.)
*→ Avoir: There is one slight irregularity: in subjunctive ayons, ayez, the  is raised to  due to assimilation with the following y sound (; the same occurs with the gerund ayant). 
:(There is no rule of assimilation to , and the Petit Robert gives the pronunciation , e.g. in ayant droit. Some speakers may have vowel harmony effects in ayez and ayons, but this is not specific to avoir, and there is no need to go into so much detail here.)
*→ Être: (The extra i sound in the conditional nous and vous forms of many -re and -oir verbs (such as devrions ) is due to a consonant cluster; in être, like other -re and -oir verbs with stems that end in a vowel in the conditional, such as boire "to drink", this does not occur (serions , boirions .)
:(This shouldn't be here, but unfortunately glide formation is not adequately discussed in French phonology. Diaresis is not limited to -re and -oir verbs, or to the conditionnel, or to nous/vous forms, or to verbs: cf. trier, nous trions, triant; triage.)
*→ couvrir, offrir, ouvrir, souffrir :This reflects the fact that the final -r- of the root is always pronounced.
:(I don't understand this, and it doesn't explain why the consonantal endings are not used, cf. appauvrir, j'appauvris.)
CapnPrep (talk) 14:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Regarding the first point, perhaps I translated it imprecisely, as the concept of qualifiers doesn't completely apply to French (Some adjectives are not qualifiers, so go figure). What I meant is that if a verb is followed by a mention particulière or un signe (Bescherelle), in this case a predicative nominative (most likely a complément d'objet direct), the verb is conjugated with avoir instead of être.
For example: Il est descendu en bas and il a descendu les livres en bas. Also, il a divorcé sa femme and il est divorcé.
In the first example pair, the C.O.D. modified the verb (function, not meaning)  so as to change its conjugation. 
In the second pair, the first sentence expresses an action, whereas the second one expresses the result of this action.
Fadibk (talk) 00:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed content 

message: The article reads, "In most -eler and -eter verbs, the writer must either change the e to an è before endings that start with a silent e, or change the l or t to ll or tt. In the rest of these verbs, only one or the other form is allowed." For which verbs is there really a choice of spellings? Is this really the majority of -eter and -eler verbs? I can't think of any such verbs where there is a choice of spelling, though I'm sure there are probably a few somewhere. But "most"? Am I misunderstanding this paragraph? Or just overlooking a large class of verbs? --seberle (talk) 15:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Following the 1990 spelling reform, most of these verbs do now have two possible forms (see Reforms_of_French_orthography#Schwa_changing_into_open_e). But this paragraph could definitely use some rewriting. CapnPrep (talk) 16:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for pointing these reforms out to me. I was not aware of most of them. Some of these 1990 "reforms" look like what everyone had been doing anyway. Others, such as hyphens in numerals, seem to be ignored so far (e.g. the Internet) and are not being currently taught in French schools. I'll have to find out more about them. In any case, your link says that the new rule is that "most" verbs should now use è instead of doubling the l or t, with the exception of appeler and jeter. I do not understand the reform as saying there are now two forms. Do you mean we are in a period of transition for most verbs with an older double consonant spelling and a newer è spelling? --seberle (talk) 19:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, this is explained later in the same article. Since, as you noticed, these reforms are not being taught in France, the period of transition will last a very long time. CapnPrep (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The spelling reforms of the 90s can be ignored. No french speaking country uses them. We're still being taught  Il s'est mû  here in Switzerland. --Île flottɑnte~Floɑting islɑnd  Talk 14:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Verbs ending in -eler, -eter 

message: N. Scarlyn Wilson of (author of the original version of Teach Yourself French) proposed a somewhat different model for conjugating verbs.  He proposed an additional regular conjugation for verbs ending in -EVOIR, arguing that seven verbs with that infinitive ending (recevoir, devoir, etc.), all follow identical patterns. He also proposed that verbs ending in -RE should be considered a conjugation in their own right, with irregular verbs (of all endings) left outside the conjugation system.  I know his model never really caught on and was never endorsed by any "official" authority, but should it perhaps be mentioned as a minority/alternative view? David Cannon (talk) 10:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This exact system is what I have been taught for my entire life! I was about to create a new section, but your comment hit the nail on the head for me. I have always been taught that -re verbs are a class in their own right, and that their proper endings are s, s, -, ons, ez, ent. I have heard this from every French teacher I have had, and it appears in Larousse's French-English/English-French dictionary. That dictionary says that -oir is a separate category, and gives recevoir as regular, but it still includes devoir as irregular. This article is completely wrong about those respects, in my mind. In addition, where is envoyer? Should that not be in the third group, seeing as its stem for the future and conditional is irregular? Interchangeable|talk to me|what I've changed 20:06, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  -EVOIR 

message: The conjugations for conduire do not list the 3rd person singular present indicative conduit, and additionally, I the rules for the imperative are wrong; it says to use 3rd person singular instead of 2nd person if "it" ends on a vowel. It's not clear if "it" is the vowel or the stem, but both of those end in a vowel in conduire and the imperative is conduis, so it is wrong either way. 24.246.24.117 (talk) 15:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  conduire un imperative 

message: I was about to revert the deletion of the section about on vs. nous, because it is not only completely accurate and well-sourced, but because it can be supported by many other sources. But I decided that actually, even though the section is accurate, it doesn't belong in this article, which is strictly about morphology, not usage. I wonder if this topic is handled adequately in other articles on French grammar.... --Macrakis (talk) 12:25, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
thread_title: On and nous