Talk:Continuation War/Archive 4

message: User Petri Krohn:  That Pudeo's message above was not "deleted".  It is in its correct spot - timeline-wise -, right before the long continuously updated text above, and my answer to it is there as well (signed 13:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: "I would rather wipe the article out of Wikipedia. It is total crap. -- Petri Krohn 06:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why we must stop placing comments inside others' texts

message: These all were among the attempts on Finland's behalf to make the Soviet counterparts - and the rest of the world - to realize that Finland sincerely was only fighting for her survival, against Josef Stalin's continued attempt to conquer Finland, for which the Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov had sought for Adolf Hitler's final approval - on his visit to Berlin on November 12-13, 1940 -, based on the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939.
:Again, this is one of the several key facts, which all in unison prove this article extremely necessary to be presented in this very place in Wikipedia.  This information is a must.  Together with the rest of the information given, this makes the reasoning full and complete, for everyone to be able to understand it.
:Naturally, somewhere else much more can be written about these matters.  Here, the key fact should be presented just like this, in a short format.  Listing sources of course is important.  I, for one, gladly volunteer to help with that part.  Ahven is a fish 19:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: These are expanded in Interim Peace article. The validity of M-R Pact and Molotov's visit to Berlin are important in Interim Peace article, as they are part of the picture how Finland turned to Nazi Germany for help. But here, if you point to the treaty and diplomatic discussions warring parties has had before the war, you are only confusing the readers and making your statements suspicious.--Whiskey 00:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Whiskey, it is important to shortly refer to these key facts.  Otherwise, the entire point of the text indeed would fall apart.  Thanky you for understanding.  The text is very much to the point.  Yet, one thing we can try to do, is clean it up just a tiny bit.  Ahven is a fish 06:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The text falls apart just because of these sentences. That is why they shouldn't be here, as they only confuse readers and makes the text suspicious in an accidental readers eyes.--Whiskey 01:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Par 12

message: In his memoirs, Josef Stalin's predecessor Nikita Khrushchev points out how the Soviet Union categorically lied about the results and casualties of the battles on the Finnish front. In the praised Russian book "Bitva za Leningrad 1941-1944" ("The Battle of Leningrad") edited by Lieutenant General S.P. Platonov, it is stated:
"The repeated offensive attempts by the Soviet Forces failed ... to gain results. The enemy succeeded in significantly tightening its ranks in this area and repulse all attacks of our troops ... During the offensive operations lasting over three weeks, from June 21 to mid-July, the forces of the right flank of the Leningrad front failed to carry out the tasks assigned to them on the orders of the Supreme Command issued on June 21."
:Did Khrushchev really meant Continuation War? It was generally accepted he was very critical about the casualty numbers of the Winter War, but later research has discredited his claim of "million casualties" as an exaggeration. The latter quote is taken out of the context, and should be applied only to Leningrad front and its operations, not the whole war. --Whiskey 03:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: No, Platonov's statement refers to the final key battles.  This was the key front.  The Battle of Tali-Ihantala and the time-line presented in Platonov's statement are the facts showing yet in one more important way, that the actual battles on the field ended to Finnish victories.  Ahven is a fish 19:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Par 17

message: The President of Finland Mauno Koivisto spoke at a seminar held in August, 1994, in the North Karelian city of Joensuu, to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Finnish victory in the crucial Battle of Ilomantsi. The future President of Finland witnessed this battle as a soldier in a reconnaissance company commanded by the legendary Finnish war hero and a Knight of the Mannerheim Cross, Captain Lauri Törni (who later became a legend also in USA as a Green Beret under the name Larry Thorne, raised to the rank of major upon his disappearance in Laos in 1965, during the Vietnam War):
In the summer of 1944, when the Red Army launched an all-out offensive, aimed at eliminating Finland, the Finns were "extremely hard-pressed", President Koivisto itenerated, but they "did not capitulate".
"We succeeded in stopping the enemy cold at key points", the President said, "and in the final battle at Ilomantsi even in pushing him back."
:Too much pathos (like "crucial"). Also unnecessary information about Törni. And Koivisto is politician, not historician, speaking to the Finnish veterans of the battle.--Whiskey 03:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Koivisto is Finland's (ex) President, who also happened to participate in the final major battle of the Continuation War.  His statements belong to this context.  Just like President Halonen, he represents a view point from Finland's political left wing, Finland's largest political party, and not some nationalistic separate group or party.  Ahven is a fish 19:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Par 18

message: The name Continuation War became about spontaneously, instantaneously and naturally.  The war continued, Josef Stalin's attempt to conquer Finland.  That's all.  There is nothing fake or pretentious about the name.
However, the name given in the Soviet Union for the Soviet over-all war during WW2, the Great Patriotic War, is seen by many even in Russia as fake, a name given under false pretense.  
Why wasn't history taught correctly in USSR?  Because, the country was a communist totalitarian society, and because the entire system of USSR - on all levels - was based on a big totalitarian lie, which was built of millions of smaller lies.  
Should the Great Patriotic War article be ended in Wikipedia?  No, but the article must be made to reflect the truth.  A lie must be reported as a lie, and the truth must be reported as the truth. 
The Russian people themselves must take the initiative in the healing process and re-education of the Russian people.   Ahven is a fish 20:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Winter War continued, and the continuation became know as continuation

message: In the article is says:
President Boris Yeltsin publicly admitted that the Soviet Union had started the Continuation War.(citation needed)
citation provided-
*"Finnish and Russian experts clash over wartime history" Helsingin Sanomat  International Foreign Edition 22 April 2005 --Bejnar 01:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thank you, Bezhnar, for providing a quote of the Finnish historian, Professor Emeritus Osmo Jussila, that states "Only Boris Yeltsin admitted that the Soviet Union attacked Finland in the Winter War." How about an actual quote of Yeltsin himself? About the Continuation war, preferrably. --Illythr 11:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  The better source would be , except it is unfortunately only in Finnish. Shortly it is a news article about the visit of the Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari May 18, 1994 to the Kremlin, where in the joined press conference president Yeltsin stated when speaking about the Winter War and Karelia: "...the seizure of these areas of Finnish territory was an example of Stalin’s totalitarian and aggressive politics, and as such was unacceptable." --Whiskey 13:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That source unfortunately requires me to enter something called "Käyttäjätunnus" and "Salasana" to proceed. :-) I'll take your word on it, though, as Yeltsin was known to make such statements in the past. Still, the main point, that the quotation is grossly misrepresented in the disputed section, stands. --Illythr 14:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Yes, it stands, and even better as you have now also ProKarelia supporting your view.;-) I was hoping that you could find something on Russian sources about that Press conference when you know the time and place. Unfortunately Finnish public broadcasting company doesn't have the conference in its free archive, as you could have heard it there directly. --Whiskey 15:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

text:  On this case, our friend who believes we are the same person, claims that Yeltsin admitted SU starting both Winter War and Continuation War, while in the citation given clearly shows that Yeltsin intended the Winter War - and NOT the Continuation War. Oh, and happy new year to you also. :-) --Whiskey 15:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Citation for Yelsin's statement

message: President Boris Yeltsin also admitted to President Martti Ahtisaari, that the Soviets had started the war.  Book, Menetetty Karjala (Lost Karelia), page 196:''
"Presidentti Jeltsin tunnusti Stalinin hyökkäyksen, mutta yritti saada asiaa pois päiväjärjestyksestä" (President Yeltsin admitted Stalin's attack, but tried to get the matter out of calendar).
213.216.199.26 16:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The Winter war, perhaps. Still, his exact words are needed to be sure. --Illythr 21:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  Correct, my second form, our manynamed friend once again provides shortened quote which is twisted to fit his interpretation. --Whiskey 22:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ANOTHER SOURCE:  WHO STARTED THE WAR

message: The break up of the Soviet Union appeared to have brought a significant change in the policies and attitudes acquired by the new Russian leadership in this respect, when in 1991 President Boris Yeltsin publicly admitted that the Soviet Union had started the Continuation War.  When confronted with the question, President Vladimir Putin referred to President Yeltsin's earlier statements, saying that there was no reason for the Russian leaders to further apologize about the matter.
: The Yeltsin's quote on the Continuation war was in fact on the Winter war. Should some part of this passage stay in the article? 
The Continuation War is widely perceived as a continuation for the Finnish-Soviet Winter War (1939–1940), Stalin's attempt to occupy Finland, based on the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, signed between Stalin and Hitler in 1939.
: This sentence is redundant, as the info is given just two paragraphs below. --Illythr 00:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I propose, that at this very point, no archiving will be done as of yet, as just about everything seems relative to the depate that has taken place.  Let's give it some time.  Thank you.  Suursaari 00:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  What, this, too? :-) I'd rather hide that info. ;-) --Illythr 01:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Also removed