Talk:Tell Abyad

message: @Gesture, it's interesting how you treat your source claiming that Kurds represent 40-45% of the population as a fact, when it's an opinion article by some unknown writer. On the other hand, you use the word "claimed" for numbers provided by a Turkish official (Governor of Urfa situation across the border from Tell Abyad). Nice standards!! Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:38, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ethnic composition numbers 

message: User:Multi-gesture, the last sentence you added had nothing to do with Tel-Abyad, or the Kurds percentage or the Governor ! This is considered WP:SYNTH.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: But it had a lot of information about Turkish govrnment (which the governor is part of it), and the relations between ISIS and this government, and the fact that the governor's words are not apropriate references to use in these articles. Also it tells us about Turkish government-Kurdish relations which is necessary for these kind of articles. --Multi-gesture (talk) 19:16, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: This article is about a city. Those information belong in the Tel-Abyad campaign article or Kurdish-Turkish relations article (if it exist). As for the governor, he didnt make his "claims" because the Kurds are accusing turkey of helping ISIS. The connection between his words and Kurdish accusations is not established by source. The governor words or a columnist words are both not the highest quality sources. We need official sources and according to the CIA factbook maps, Tel-Abyad have Arab majority .--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 19:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: The accusations was not made only by Kurds, review the references. Also, when an independent columnist says something in a well-known website, it's acceptable but, what about a Turkish official's propaganda which is made for many obvious reasons. By the way, if you have any higher quality official references, I would be glad to see them in the article.--Multi-gesture (talk) 19:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I would suggest that we only mention that the majority are Arabs with a considerable Kurdish minority and stay away from being very specific in regard to percentages since we dont have any official census. But thats up to you.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 20:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, do this in both Tel Abyad city and district.--Multi-gesture (talk) 20:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

text: Attar, the word majority might mean 51% or 90%. I still think the numbers are important, while indicating who said what to give full context. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 18:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Kurdish Accusation

message: You edit was reversed. 
Reasons why I reverted your edits:
1. You removed sourceddetails (55%) without any reason. 
2. The Kurdwatch is not Kurdish and it is not human rights group. It is just an internet portal as they say here, .
3. It doesn't confirm anything, it claims and it has no statistical or original studies. It is just an internet portal. 
4. The Kurds consist 10% of the population of newly captured areas in Tel Abyad, not the whole Tel Abyad. 
Ferakp (talk) 05:00, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:   Thanks for your intervention here. BTW, the proportions for Turkmen and Kurds are switched in your edit, should be 15% Turkmen and 10% Kurds, according to KurdWatch, not the other way around. I still don't agree with the 55% number, and as you had said before this is obviously WRONG and extremely exaggerated, and it is not mentioned in the al-monitor story (30-45%). Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:05, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
replies: text:   Thanks for saying. In fact I changed the numbers accidentally. The 55% are mentioned in this source: http://www.vdc-sy.info/pdf/reports/talabyad-English.pdf at page three. It's definitely as wrong as the turkish statement. So either we take out both or let them both there.--Ermanarich (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reversed change 

message: Confirm is a strong word and should not be used without any court decision, especially if a source is not a reliable and strong. In case of Kurdwatch, it's nothing else than a claim, since it has itself said that they aren't responsible for their reports/news and their accuracy.Ferakp (talk) 05:22, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Confirming vs claiming 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: After one user reverted all updates to the page and any inclusion of content unrelated to ethnic-majority wars, I will now make a second attempt. However important these who-is-ethnic-majority wars may appear to some, it cannot be that this article does prohibit any other informatuion on Tell Abyad. I will for now in Edit: CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER leave all content concerning the who-is-ethnic-majority wars untouched, just make the order of the history section chronological rather than dramaturgical as it is now, add new information  unrelated to who-is-ethnic-majority wars, and delete one sentence about government which is onviously outdated. If you have an issue with this, please talk about it here rather than reverting without reason. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 16:29, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Order of the page, including information that is unrelated to who-is-ethnic-majority wars 

message: "Kurdwatch" is not a serious source. Currently, this article gives extreme weight to a quote from that "Kurdwatch" website, without there being any reason to do so, as all the content of that quote already is in the article, and if one would want to elaborate, there would be many much more serious sources around for each and every point mentioned. I strongly suggest to either completely remove the "Kurdwatch" part or at least cook it down to one sentence. Suggestion for cooking down:
:Kurdwatch, a Germany based internet portal, suggested displacements, no large-scale ethnically motivated expulsions, repressive measures against persons with ties to ISIL, ethnic discrimination based on the fact that only Kurds from Tall Abyad could act as a guarantor for refugees so that they can return to Tall Abyad from Turkey.
This would also serve the aim to correct the overall balance of the article, which gives absurd undue weight to this one issue. And it would serve the aim of embarrassing Wikipedia less by less presenting this "internet portal" as an alleged quotable source. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Kurdwatch is a serious source. It already went to the reliable sources portal.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:29, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing the "Kurdwatch" Junk 

message: I kindly ask Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) to stop vandalizing the "Self-administration within Kobanî Canton" section by deleting highly relevant, informative and well-sourced content without any discernable reason or explanation. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 10:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually the word vandalizing applies to your actions more than anyone else. You deleted my Washington Post story, which is a source more reliable than any of the sources you use. I will revert that, and then come up with a serious source for your kobani story. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 00:36, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, the Reuters reference is good. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Dear Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم, the Reuters reference was part of the concerning text section all the time, including at the time when you deleted it entirely. And your accusation "you deleted my Washington Post story" is plain false. I kindly ask you to either provide proof for that accusation or apologize. -- 2A1ZA (talk) 13:56, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

text: Yes, the Washington Post story is still there. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 02:25, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Self-administration within Kobanî Canton 

message: Since both Kurds and Turkmen are significant minorities in Tell Abyad, consisting of 10-30% and 15% of the town's population, respectively,http://www.vdc-sy.info/pdf/reports/talabyad-English.pdfhttp://www.kurdwatch.org/pdf/KurdWatch_A011_en_TallAbyad.pdf Tell Abyad would be listed both as a Kurdish community and a Turkmen community in Syria. Please don't remove either category without a clear consensus. Editor abcdef (talk) 02:25, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: According to all sources, Tel Abyad has an overwhelming Arab majority, so if any of those ethnic categories are to be used, it should be Arab communities in Syria. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 02:47, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Can't we use all 3 categories? if these communities are attested for at the town, then why not? I just saw that there isn't an "Arab communities in Syria" category, which I guess makes sense as all towns have significant Arab communities. I don't object to having the categories for Turkmen/Kurds as per categories for religious minorities. See: :Category:Druze communities in Syria, and :Category:Christian communities in Syria. Yazan (talk) 08:56, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

text: Then, that would be misleading to have categories for Kurdish and Turkmen communities since they are minorities here. This might lead people to think/claim there are no Arabs here. It's different for christian and druze communities, as these would usualyy be uniformly christian or druze. See my point?? Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 03:07, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Hi Amr. Let's agree that there are no "pure" ethnic/religious towns in Syria (not yet anyway), and so you'll always find significant minorities of one ethnicity or another in a town that might be dominated by another community (e.g., Yabrud, or even Maaloula). And since Arab communities (and in a similar way, but to a slightly lesser extent - Sunni Islam communities) are almost ubiquitous in all towns, I doubt whether it makes sense to categorise them as such (the category becomes almost redundant). Adding a "community" category actually means that it is present in the town, rather than that the town is "exclusively" made up of such and such community. That's my rationale. But if you decide to create an all-encompassing category of "Arab communities", then I wouldn't object either - so long as all attested different communities in town foo are also categorise. Otherwise, we'd be be sacrificing the usefulness of the encyclopaedia to POV-warriors/ethno-religious ideologues - never-mind the practical impossibility of actually establishing which is the largest community in one town (especially in such terrible times of demographic shifts). Best, Yazan (talk) 07:27, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Kurdish and Turkmen community  

message: , you did not like the Talk here and all the facts I presented to you supporting the WaPost quote. You opened the request at DRN, and then you didn't like the suggestion of the volunteer there (user Nightenbelle) that a quote is a quote and you can't change it, and didn't like the extra evidence we presented there. You have decided to resume your edit war and remove not only the one quote in dispute but the two quotes that go against your POV, in addition to the Kurdwatch story that I don't care about. I will give you one hour to revert yourself before I report you. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 17:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Just look at WP:quotations: Quotations are used to show what someone well known said or wrote about what is described in the article. Then check at MOS:Quote (right below WP:quotations): the quotations are way too long to be included. And under  section MOS:QUOTEPOV: Quotations should be used, with attribution, to present emotive opinions that cannot be expressed in Wikipedia's own voice, but never to present cultural norms as simply opinional.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:37, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

text: Quotations should be included of people close to the topic described in the article and the Washington Post, the Washington Institute are both across the ocean and Kurdwatch from Germany, and are all far away from Tell Abyad. Besides, they should really just be brief, well known and have a historical relevance. Don't know what Liz Sly, Kurdwatch or Balanche's strong connection with Tell Abyad is, but if Tell Abyad certainly played a role in their existence/life, it should be well known, and their quote as well. The quote of a Mayor of Tell Abyad has more relevance for the article than any of these quotes. And regarding my arguments before, they also still count.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 09:22, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is in UK but all our news sources are mostly from SOHR. Your argument is not valid Shadow4dark (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Please focus on the topic, which is quotations/quotes. Do we include quotes by SOHR in the Tell Abyad article? No. And there are just two sources of 52 sources of SOHR included in the article. This is not most.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

text: I have reported the topic of the Quotes at the NPOV notice board, I just informed the really involved ones about the discussion, but all who are interested about the quality of the article are welcome to join. Here is the link to it.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:30, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I will file an RfC for the discussion at the NPOV noticeboard, a similar one like the archdukes discussion had one.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:49, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing quotes 

message: You just removed the two quotes that were the subject of our discussion in July and a RFC. We had agreed to take out the Kurdwatch quote as a compromise, but you are now coming back and removing the same quotes for which removal you were blocked last time. I kindly ask that you revert you removal before I report that. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 16:55, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Answer first the questions me and Konli had to you first. Then also answer to the WP:undue to which you have not yet answered. Then the block was due to a misunderstanding you caused with reporting in the first place. Try it again, I'll defend myself well.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:23, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I already explained above, if you delete them it goes one pov point. Shadow4dark (talk) 06:14, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Will you answer, Amr? Konli17 (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Why does Amr defend the inclusion of a quote by someone like Balanche while dismiss him as such at Kurds in Syria? Should a quote not have some relevance to the article? I mean anything a mayor of Tell Abyad or the co-chair of of the civil council (doesn't exist as per Balanche quote) has more relevance to the article than what Balanche has to say. And what's his unique relevance to Tell Abyad to make him relevant enough to include quotes by him in a city. And what is the unique relevance to Tell Abyad of Liz Sly? Both Quotes are WP:UNDUE. Balanche writes clearly in opposition to the governing body if you read the whole article. And Liz Sly is even of less relevance as she hasn't produced any research in the field and makes several heavily disputed statements in the Quote in dispute. And the term unilaterally has never been really addressed in the dispute so far. How is it an unilaterally action to form a separate governing body aside from ISIL if the city was before in possession of ISIL and the majority of the Raqqa Governorate was also Governed by ISIL until October 2017? Both Quotes are WP:UNDUE.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 10:07, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

text: Balanche in the number estimate was going against all other estimates putting the percentage of Kurds at 5-10%. Still, the reference has been there for weeks, and I didn't remove it. The situation here is different, and the two quotes you are trying to remove confirm the exact same thing, Kurdification efforts carried out by YPG, which is a very important and serious accusation. I hope you will let this go now and stop the edit-warring. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:20, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: You didn't address the points I raised. Nor concerning the relevance of the two authors to the town and also not to the term "unilaterally". Also not to WP:UNDUE. We also don't dispute the Kurdificaction accusation, but that the quotes a presented in a POV way. Both sources were also not removed, just the quotes. The Kurdifification accusation was included in the article at all times during the current dispute.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:24, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing 2 quotes by user Paradise on 3 August 2020 

message: Does anyone oppose the removal of the two quotes of Liz Sly and Fabrice Balanche on other grounds as that they are sourced with high quality sources? I have brought numerous arguments up of which several were undressed since May 2020 when the dispute began. Two of the editors who wanted to include the quotes have since been topic banned on Kurds and Kurdistan
On the First Quote of Liz Sly of The Washington Post:
 
Number 1: 
Tell Abyad was liberated from ISIL and therefore it could not possibly have been "unilaterally" detached from the Raqqa Governorate by "the Kurds".
The Raqqa Governorate (Called Raqqa Wilaya by ISIL) was still Administered by ISIL in large parts until late 2016, while Raqqa itself only fell in October 2017.
Number 2:
Tell Abyad was not "formally" renamed into a Kurdish name. 
The new Administration just allowed the Kurdish name as well. The SDF itself levied a Military council of Tell Abyad in June 2019 well ahead of the capture of Tell Abyad through the Turkish lead forces.
Number 3: 
Latin and Arab script were both known also before the capture of Tell Abyad by the YPG as it is shown in images of Syrian traffic signs in Wikipedia Commons. 
Number 4
Then Liz Sly is also not a prominent figure from Tell Abyad  
I agree on that they were accused of Kurdifying the city, but to present several inaccuracies in the prominent fashion of a Quote is not NPOV.
 
On the second quote: WINEP is not a reliable source according to WP:RS archive No.48
Then the Tell Abyad Canton was established in 2015 existed until it was captured during the Turkish invasion into North and East Syria and therefore it couldn't be a part of Kobane Canton as claimed by Fabrice Balanche. Then Tell Abyad also had a culturally mixed civil council which included several ethnicities. That an author ignores such info and then his text is presented in a prominent fashion of a quote is not NPOV or contrary to MOS:QUOTEPOV and MOS:SCAREQUOTES. 
Any suggestions how to present such info other than I did it before?Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:00, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: WINEP is an advocacy org and thus not an RS. WaPo shouldn't be used for this per WP:SCHOLARSHIP because there is scholarship available about the liberation from ISIL and the alleged Kurdification of the city, or, more generally, about ethnic conflict and changes in government during the civil war (how's that for a euphemism :-) ). So I wouldn't include either of these sources at all. Levivich harass/hound 06:07, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, as Levivich said. Yet there were alot of accusations of Kurdification, so would you replace these quotes with NPOV scholarship investigating these?--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 08:38, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

text:  About Liz Sly, Syria is a warzone and we lack good independence sources. Did she spread fake news or do you just dont like her? Shadow4dark (talk) 08:55, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: @Shadow4Dark, Liz Slys statements are contradictory to several easily to verify info as explained by me at the beginning of the discussion. To @Attar Aram syria, also I see the Kurdification accusation as an important info to include in the article. This is not in dispute.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:48, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing quotes