Talk:The Smashing Pumpkins/Archive 2

message: I tried to restructure the "Post-breakup" section like the one over at Pixies.  I hope this version flows better.  WesleyDodds 03:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I think what you did to it is fantastic. It reads much better, and looks far better. I think those images would have held it back from FA in the future, I don't think that much "fair use" would hold up to the FA scrutiny. - Phorque 12:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Breakup section 

message: Let's see if we can find citations for more bands that like and/or are influenced by the Smashing Pumpkins.  Phorque has mentioned Mogwai, but he's having trouble finding anything more concrete.  I've heard Kill Hannah and Muse are influenced by them, but I haven't seen a direct comment by either band. I've found this, but I'm not sure how reliable it is. WesleyDodds 19:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to the allmusicguide page on the Pumpkins, bands like Placebo, Muse, My Chemical Romance, Silverchair, Kill Hannah, Travis and more are said to be influenced by the Pumpkins link. Would that count as a reliable source? Aljohnston 10:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really, could just be allmusic making things up. The "more concrete" kinda things we're looking for would be interviews with the bands themselves saying "SP influenced us". - Phorque 10:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Exactly.  Allmusic is pretty right on when it comes to listing what a band was influenced by, but are pretty spotty when it comes to bands they in turn influenced.  An example is that Husker Du heavily influenced Green Day, but the pages don't acknowledge this.  I've sent in citations to Allmusic but they haven't changed either page yet.  WesleyDodds 11:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: From looking around into interviews, the only one i can find is in fact Nelly Furtado link. Aljohnston 08:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bands influenced by SP 

message: So are we going to update the article every time the Pumpkins add a tour date? I know it's big news now, but these individual dates are going to swiftly lose relevance. I'm not sure, do we add a "current events" tag above there? Do we keep the first reunion gigs as being significant and then just say "and later they added more" or what? We're not gonna keep tacking on "and THEN in April 2008, the pumpkins added *gasp* another gig!!1!!".... are we? It's an encyclopedia article, not a blow-by-blow account of their tour dates, right? - Phorque 11:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I say we either list all the confirmed tours in one sentence, or say something along the lines of 'The Smashing Pumpkisn will be performing at several European festivals this summer" backed by the citations.  WesleyDodds 21:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: The latter is far less ugly, more inclusive, and less likely to require extensive re-editing. Probably also worth adding that more dates are expected to be confirmed in the coming months as well, to be fully inclusive but non-specific? Girolamo Savonarola 03:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Done. WesleyDodds 04:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Where do we draw the line? (tour) 

message: We need a fair use rational for the infobox image, at least until we find out who exactly is in the band right now and if we can get a free picture of them. WesleyDodds 23:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Infobox image 

message: It would be interesting to add a section about the number 7 and its relevance to the Smashing Pumpkins (or maybe it would be more appropriate to for the Billy Corgan article).  Including: 
*Age at which Billy began listening to music
*Length of the hiatus
*Number of Grammy nominations in 1996
*Number of VMA nominations in 1996
*Day, month and year of the release of the band's 7th album
*Billy quoted as saying his life can be broken down into phases of 7 years.
*Line from "Settle Down" by Zwan: "7 years, 7 days and 7 hours"
*Time at which new album's title and release date were posted by Billy (7:07am). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.209.206.1 (talk) 00:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's trivial, and no one else has made an explicit point about it. WesleyDodds 00:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And, you gave eight bullet points. What were you thinking, dude?—DCGeist 02:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: ICK. -- Reaper  X 03:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: And it's actually the sixth album. Oh noes. - Phorque 14:11, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm guessing that you mean its the sixth "official" album.  Gish, Siamese, Mellon Collie, Adore, Machina, Machina II, Zeitgeist.  I definately count seven there.  It might be a good idea to comment on the significance of seven (probably under Music style and influences), but I think it hardly warrents its own section. Nihirist 02:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Oh god, too many people are actually being influenced by The Number 23 or something. -- Reaper  X 02:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: 7 = (2x3)+1; (1x3x7)+2 = OH GOOD LORD!!! = 23!!!!!!! You are grim, Reaper.—DCGeist 06:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: The Number 7

message: After having listened to the commentary on the music videso DVD all over again and with the addition of the "Today" screencap, I had an epiphany and decided we should have a section talking about their music videos.  I've sandboxed a basic structure here.  Tell me what you think and what I should add (it would be especially helpful if you could give me citations) and when we're done I'll edit the article accordingly.  WesleyDodds 23:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Music videos 

message: Can someone upload a screenshot from the actual video?  Like, do it yourself? That would definitely fit under fair use and be more usuable than the current picture (which is great, but apparently the copyright on it is murky). WesleyDodds 07:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Something with at least two members of the band.  In terms of notable videoes, we could use "Today", "1979", or (probaboly best) "Tonight, Tonight". With that last one as long as its an awesome image it doesn't matter, because the video's been praised so much.  WesleyDodds 23:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Right-o, I'll give Tonight Tonight a shot, but I'll upload all the ones I did think came out ok onto photobucket for you to see. Another irritating point I feel I must raise is that the free image I found of the band performing in 1991 is CC'ed with the "non-commercial" condition, which, under the new fair-use reign of terror is not suitable, because GFDL wants things to be re-distributable for commercial purposes. *cries* Let's just wait until someone gets pissed and tries to contest it. - Phorque 08:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Take your pick. Although, I get the feeling that using one of these is going to invite more criticism, even if it is better than the previous image. - Phorque 09:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I think the first three came out really good. In terms of usage, the first or second "Tonight, TOnight" images are the best.  We can talk about how the video won several awards and was inspired by Georges Méliès' A Trip to the Moon. WesleyDodds 10:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Today video image 

message: Hmm, I've been mulling over the samples and wondered if we couldn't include something from Machina II instead of Machina? The tough point is that the album is freely distributed in mp3 format, and decoding a song to WAV and then recompressing to OGG might sound really ass. But if somebody can advise me on this, it would cut down the amount of "fair use" in the article by a bit. - Phorque 09:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea man, that sounds like a great idea. Anything more free = less critisicm. I'm not very savvy on converting sound formats, but if you can do it so it sounds decent go for it. If "recompressing to OGG might sound really ass", maybe go for something like "Slow Dawn", but my suggestion would have to be going for "Satur9" if it is feasable. -- Reaper  X 19:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I changed my mind. I remembered I had this audio converter on ym comp, and so I went and coverted a 320kbps CBR MP3 version of "Let Me Give the World to You" straight to OGG format, and uploaded it. You can find it as :Image:Smashing Pumpkins - CR-04 - 06 - Let Me Give the World to You.ogg. I chose Let Me Give the World to You" because apparently "Had the album been crystallized as an "official" pressed release, the song was considered as a single". It does not "sound really ass" to me, so lemme know what you think about it, if I have the correct licence for it, etc. -- Reaper  X 20:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well that's the thing, I don't want to do anything until I'm sure that it's the kind we can put on wikipedia, and whether it should be a sample or a full song. Actually, it should be a sample, because those tracks are definitely not allowed to be commercially redistributed under the GFDL. That's the issue with most of the fair use images too. As for what song, I was considering "Cash Car Star" or "Glass' Theme", just because those could demonstrate the "return to guitar-heavy sound" that the Everlasting Gaze clip I uploaded was showing. - Phorque 11:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Actually, the more I think about this, the worse it becomes... Machina II tracks might be "more free" but I think the fair-use snag remains. Might as well keep the Machina clip. I get the feeling if FA is the "goal" behind all of this, we going to have to sacrifice a lot of the media content of this article. - Phorque 11:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

text: You should really mark the file for deletion, with the GFDL commercial re-distribution concerns and all. - Phorque 14:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perhaps a Machina II song instead? 

message: Seeing as there have been complaints about "too many" fair use samples and this comment wasn't gaining much attention...
What do you guys think about the Rhinoceros sample? I don't know if it is serving much purpose other than acting as a milestone for their sound at that time. I would suggest we either drop it altogether or replace it with something that has more to be said about it. - Phorque 17:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Take it out for now.  Make sure it's on the "Rhinoceros" page, though. If I think of more to add to its sound sample box description, I'll add it back later. WesleyDodds 14:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Song samples vs FA 

message: The picture in the article associated with Adore is hardly emblematic of a "dark Gothic persona".  I will go further to defy anyone to produce a single picture from 1998 in which the band evinces a Goth look.  You'll find pictures of Corgan in a straw hat, but you won't find one picture of him in makeup.  In my opinion, that line should be flat-out struck -- but I know that it's a common misperception, so I thought it was best to come here and talk about it before doing it. Jjb 22:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Gothic" during Adore period? 

message: Check here in case somebody answers my pitiful cry for help in our battle against copyrighted images. - Phorque 10:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Although it's obviously not free, that "Thirty-Three" one is funny.  WesleyDodds 23:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Desperation sets in 

message: Could we do away with the (fair use) Geek USA and "the band's touring lineup in 2000" images? I feel that will reduce the number of fair use images to an acceptable level with regards to the article's FAC nomination. I'm sure we can find free images to replace these fair use images anyhow. CloudNine 10:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: On what basis do you "feel" that? As Phorque keeps pointing out, the Wikilawyers who have a problem with the fair use images never state what would be an acceptable level. I, for one, don't think we should be kowtowing simply in hope that our sacrifice will be deemed "acceptable." Also, as you're "sure we can find free images to replace these fair use images anyhow," then simply find them. There's no need to cut the fair use images right now at all. You find the free images and then we can substitute, one-for-one, without ever detracting from the article's presentation quality.—DCGeist 10:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Indeed, I haven't heard one rationale as to why any of the images would not be needed. The problem is simply that it is "too much" justified fair use. And wikipedia has a very central policy that not many people know about: if the rules stop you from making an article better, ignore them. If this stops this otherwise great article being featured, who cares? Maybe when we find these elusive free images we can nominate it again. Under the new rules, this clearly isn't wikipedia's finest work. Another FA I worked on (Elliott Smith) would probably be delisted if it were FAR'ed right now. - Phorque 11:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok. Interesting points raised. It is strange how we can't find any free images of the Smashing Pumpkins; I'll go and trawl Flickr. CloudNine 11:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I found a set I posted a link to in the FAC, but I thought I'd leave it to someone more familiar with Wiki media guidelines to deal with.  There's three good photos of Corgan from the Mellon Collie tour. WesleyDodds 11:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I sent that guy a message asking him if we could use his photos via FlickrMail. Awaiting response. I particularly like this imageand this image, I think we could caption it with something like "Corgan's 'Zero' t-shirt was an iconic image of the time" or something like that. ...that's if the author is cool with releasing the photos under the Creative Commons license. - Phorque 12:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know if it was as a result of one of you contacting them, but the latter image  has a free license. With that license, it can be uploaded to the Commons. I would do it, but as I said, you all may be already aware and it may have already been uploaded. I say upload it to the Commons because the Commons has a bot that verifies images uploaded from Flickr. (edit: Nevermind, I see Phorque's note to him in the comments. Well done.)↔NMajdan•talk 17:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Here's an image I just found we might want to ask about:  WesleyDodds 15:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure what that image would add to the article, only showing James and Billy. :/ I'm also not sure about the Metro gig, there was certainly a film crew recording the show, so chances are we won't get a fan shot of the band from that show. - Phorque 22:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Cameras were not allowed at the final show.  My disposable was confiscated in the middle of "Act I."  I don't think very many people made it out with pictures. Cjosefy 23:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing we can expect. Even that dude we got the photo from mentioned that he was given special allowance (for something or other) to photograph Billy during the first three songs of the set with no flash. Not exactly promising for finding other photos! ps. I am super jealous that you saw that show - Phorque 18:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Images 

message: Catherine was a big influence in Billy's song writting post-gish era accoring to his blogs posted on his myspace page. And if you listen to Catherine's album, Hot Sake and Bed Time Stories, you'll here Siamese Dream sounds coming out on the album. Billy Corgan does give them credit for finding creative sounds through the use of a distortion pedals and sound effects. Who's going to write this one up?--Prequarius 17:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually, it looks more like Catherine were influenced by the Pumpkins according to allmusic. Also, the Hot Saki and Bedtime Stories album was released three years after Siamese Dream. Can you say where exactly he mentioned them on his myspace? - Phorque 18:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

text: On top of that, Corgan produced one of their records.  WesleyDodds 23:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

text: That basically boils down to "Catherine showed me what a Big Muff pedal is".  If anything, that's mroe applicable to Corgan's page than the Pumpkins one.  WesleyDodds 13:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Doesn't seem like one song is significant enough to be under associated acts. Besides, if we did that, some band infoboxes would be filled to the brim (if there is one) with associated acts. -- Reaper  X 17:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

text: ...and billy corgan was in turn associated with Emilie Autumn and so it would spiral off into the six degrees of separation and everyone from your neighbour's garage band to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan would be in the infobox! Thankfully we can navigate this exciting endless chain through the magic of MediaWiki =P Although I do think that you're right about the Last Hard Men. Let's keep it to "acts that involved 2 or more member of the Pumpkins" - Phorque 23:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Jimmy Chamberlin Complex, A Perfect Circle, Starchildren, Zwan. That seems reasonable to me. -- Reaper  X 05:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  No listing of Catherine? 

message: Please guys, never forget the  template. If you have the article on your watchlist, please make sure you have the template on there as well if you dont already. I want to point out there are a couple open topics on the talk page, and more are welcome on things like format. -- Reaper  X 21:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Band template

message: In my opinion there's no need to mention bands the Pumpkins influenced. The section will always be a source of dispute, and, as a Pumpkins fan, I don't think it'd be a very interesting read, seeing as how, at most, they influenced, like, 3 bands. -- -ThrowingStick/Talk 17:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Bands that an artist has influenced are necessary to include per our notability guidelines.  It helps illustrates a band's legacy.  Obviously we wouldn't list ever single band (image doing that for The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or the Ramones), just the notable ones.  WesleyDodds 21:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's also been mentioned several times on FAC, right? Girolamo Savonarola 00:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I really dont see what the point of that is.. i mean WHO CARES!!!! that would be like listing bands that Faith No More influenced.. it doesnt matter. who sais its needed? needed for what? for bands to praise themselves for being "influenced by" another band? thats ridiculous. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HDS (talk • contribs) 01:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Like I said, listing the bands they influenced helps convey their legacy, their importance, and thus, their notability.  WesleyDodds 05:36, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: I don't like My Chemical Romance either, but I think you're missing the point.  They admit they've been influenced by the Pumpkins, and that is as relevant as how many records they've sold. WesleyDodds 09:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: Like Wesley has said, whether you like the bands or not, the fact that anyone models themselves after the Pumpkins is testament to their importance in the history of alternative music. It's neither here nor there as to whether the people that do mention the pumpkins are "cool" or not. And like I mentioned on the SP WikiProject page, we're not here to worship this band, we're writing a good, objective account of their career and influence. - Phorque 11:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: We're just looking for good sources/references on those. - Phorque 14:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Ask whoever suggested them. You already have one for MCR, don't you? User:Mutley suggested The Superjesus, and YOU, Phorque, mentioned Mogwai. --ThrowingStick/Talk 19:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That's true but I also mentioned in two places that my only source was allmusic and one critic's opinion, and I'd rather have something from the members themselves rather than somebody else's opinion as a reference. I even dropped a message asking if there was any truth to it at the contact section of Mogwai's website, but I don't really expect a response. Someone did, however, find that Nelly Furtado cited them as an influence. I just can't think of a way to put that in the paragraph without it looking awkward. It's not a critical section, just one worth having once we have the references. Don't stress. ;) - Phorque 14:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  To do list 

message: According to MTV.com, James Iha is not participating in the reunion, and the odds for D'arcy showing up are unlikely.  Is there additional verification available on this before we add it to the article?  WesleyDodds 00:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Most of what I've read has been like this, with vague wording like their manager "seemed to indicate" that Iha and D'arcy won't be joining them. It seems to be a given that they aren't a part of it. But maybe that's what we're supposed to think(?).--piper108 02:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Trust no one. - Phorque 14:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh come on- this conspiracy theory is going nowhere.  D'arcy and Iha have both made it pretty clear that neither one is exactly longing for the good ol' days.  I'd say it's pretty safe to go with what pretty much every press outlet is saying, that this is a Corgan/Chamberlain reunion.--Atomicskier 00:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iha not joining reunion 

message: In the "Selected discography" section, I would like to argue that Machina II does not belong on the list.  It is a compilation.  Just as Pisces Iscariot took songs from the Gish and Siamese Dream outtakes, Machina II is just a collection of Adore and Machina outtakes and b-sides.  Billy Corgan himself has called Zeitgeist their 6th album.
:As I understand it, Machina II consists of (a) three EPs containing B-sides, outtakes, and alternate versions. If that's all it was, it would certainly be proper to list it with the compilations. But Machina II also includes (b) a full-length LP of original songs. Right? That qualifies it as an original album.—DCGeist 23:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Albums vs Compilations

message: I want to say congratu-fucking-lations on making this featured guys. You worked hard on it, and now you have this to show for it. Good job.One of the issues that came to light though is the images, as you know. So keep your eyes peeled for free shit, that way we can avoid the hassle if an FA review ever comes around.Once again, good job. I applaud you all. -- Reaper  X 16:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: FA

message: So I was tinkering around on Alexa Internet, and I decided to look up smashingpumpkins.com. I put the scope over a year, and noticed about the time the site was updated to say "It's official" on April 20th, there was a huge spike. This wouldn't be notable enough to mention would it? -- Reaper  X 03:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think so.  After all, the site was inactive for a while and only recently was active again.  WesleyDodds 04:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

text: Yeah, this kind of thing is more relevant to internet phenomena. - Phorque 16:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: smashingpumpkins.com spike

message: The following statement is no longer true/outdated because "Speaker Box/The Love Below" by Outkast was certified diamond, and has gone 11-times platinum in 2006.  
"Even more successful than Siamese Dream, it was certified nine times platinum in the United States[28] and became the best-selling double album of the decade to date.[29]" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.174.21.57 (talk) 06:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Best-selling of the decade, meaning the 1990s. Speakerboxxx/The Love Below came out in 2003.  WesleyDodds 07:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: does this anonymous man even have a source for speakerboxx? --ThrowingStick/Talk 21:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

text: No, you misunderstand. Mellon Collie was merely the best-selling double-set released in the 1990s (9 million US sales). The best-selling double album of all time is Pink Floyd's The Wall (about 22 million US sales).  WesleyDodds 11:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Aw jeez. I've been convinced that MC was bestselling of all time. Does wiki have a list of double albums listed by sales figures? What place would MC have then? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ThrowingStick (talk • contribs) 14:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mellon Collie....