Talk:Torture in the United States

message: This should be referenced: "Allegations of state terrorism by the United States" - one might even go so far as to say the two should be merged.Cinnamon colbert (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  other wiki articles

message: This artical in general shows a lack of citation in general.
Eg:
"These practices include: extended forced maintenance of "stress positions" such as standing or squatting; psychological tricks and "mind games"; sensory deprivation; exposure to loud music and noises; extended exposure to flashing lights; prolonged solitary confinement; denigration of religion; withholding of food, drink, or medical care; withholding of hygienic care or toilet facilities; prolonged hooding; forced injections of unknown substances; sleep deprivation; magneto-cranial stimulation resulting in mental confusion; threats of bodily harm; threats of rendition to torture-friendly states or Guantánamo; threats of rape or sodomy; threats of harm to family members; threats of imminent execution; prolonged constraint in contorted positions (including strappado, or "Palestinian hanging"); facial smearing of real or simulated feces, urine, menstrual blood, or semen; sexual humiliation; beatings, often requiring surgery or resulting in permanent physical or mental disability; release or threat of release to attack dogs, both muzzled or un-muzzled; near-suffocation or asphyxiation via multiple detainment hoods, plastic bags, water-soaked towels or blankets, duct tape, or ligatures; gassing and chemical spraying resulting in unconsciousness; confinement in small chambers too small to fully stand or recline; prolonged underwaffler immersion just short of drowning (i.e. dunking); and extended exposure to extreme temperatures below freezing or above 120 °F (48 °C)."
Where did that paragraph come from?  Any basis?
"agents have anonymously confirmed to the Washington Post in a December 26, 2002 report that the CIA routinely uses so-called "stress and duress" interrogation techniques (e.g. water boarding), which are claimed by human rights organisations to be acts of torture, in the US-led War on Terrorism. These sources state that CIA and military personnel beat up uncooperative suspects, confine them in cramped quarters, duct tape them to stretchers, and use other restraints which maintain the subject in an awkward and painful position for long periods of time."
Which Washington Post artical?
--TheResistance 21:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Citation 

message: I've restored "torture" to the subheadings, reverting in part recent changes. We have to tread carefully here, but I'm resting this on several points of clarity:
* Government denials do not, in most cases, change the definition of torture itself
* Substantial, confirmed evidence of torture in each of the categories discussed here (Abu Ghraib abuse in Iraq; Maher Arar's case in extraordinary rendition)
* The State Department's description of techniques involved as torture
Remember, this is not an article about interrogation, extraordinary rendition, slavery etc., but rather about torture and its relation to these elements of United States policy.
Also, an editing opinion:
*The debate on "acceptable" techniques should not be read as an interpretation that these techniques are not torture, especially because some participants in the debate have openly advocated torture. So while I hear Philip's point about our text (and we should clarify just what the debate means), this is not a case of redefining torture on the fly.
--Carwil 14:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Torture in subheads 

message: *Keep - article should be kept separate, so it is easier to find and has room to expand. EnviroGranny 02:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Merger

message: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/washington/04interrogate.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1191507197-J63du86MY+qXVIMFi7hUcA
This article is a pretty informative summary of the administration's and especially Alberto Gonzales' position towards torture and interrogation methods. I'm lacking the time at the moment to include some of the material, maybe someone else might give it some effort? 88.64.8.36 14:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: NYTimes Article

message: Should the article include various statements and studies which have been made regarding the effectiveness (or ineffectiveness) of US torture? --NeuronExMachina 16:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Effectiveness 

message: I have merged these two articles per AfD consensus.  I have only done the minimum amount of cleanup, it will need some attention from those well versed in the subject matter in order to integrate the content. Gigs (talk) 01:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Got to say I disagree with that merge. Yes, the merged article needed a lot of work, but there is a clear case for separating off the detail of the definitional and legal issues from the debate about historical and current practice. There is overlap of course, but surely a decent stab at a proper separation would have been better than merging. The result now is an unholy mess. Disembrangler (talk) 07:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merged Torture_(US_law_definition) 

message: Could you mention or add a link to the book by William Blum Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower tells how America has used & taught torture to "stop the spread of communism?" Stars4change (talk) 00:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Add link?

message: The sentence "It is the position of the United States government that the legal memoranda constituted only permissible legal research, and did not signify the intent of the United States to use torture which it opposes" appears to have been itself inserted by someone in that Government. It should at the very least have a citation attached. Someone should comment on whether these were indeed merely "research memoranda" or whether they had impact on actual policy or practice.Paulhummerman (talk) 03:14, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Legal Justifications 

message: The "Torture (Countries With US Training)" section seems misleading, biased, and doesn't seem to add much.  It gives an accounting of all the US military aid to the country and all the US-trained military and police in the country, from 1946 to 1975.  So to the casual reader, given the inclusion in this article, it seems like the US gave $2.8 billion to Greece, $6.5 billion to South Korea, $16 billion to South Vietnam, and trained hundreds of thousands of their military and police, all so the US could export torture.  But I imagine that almost all the aid had nothing to do with the torture. Obviously, the aid to South Vietnam and South Korea was about the Korean War and the Vietnam War. A casual reader might think the number of US trained military/police was the number of military or police in the country trained in torture, but i suspect the vast majority of these officers were trained in traditional, legitimate defense or police work.  Maybe it goes to show that the US should have screened its allies better, but it doesn't contribute much to the article otherwise. You definitely need text explaining why Chomsky included the chart.  You also need text explaining Amnesty's criterion for what it takes to be a "torture country."  Will one abusive police officer get you on the list?  What if a country had regime change during the years, and the old leader tortured, but the new leader didn't?
A much more useful chart would be something like number of military personnel from a country trained in the School of the Americas.  That's a really useful statistic about US encouraging of torture, but this chart is irrelevant at best, misleading at worstWldcat (talk) 05:41, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Countries with US training section 

message: WP:AND says (in part) "Titles containing "and" are often red flags that the article has neutrality problems or is engaging in original research: avoid the use of "and" in ways that appear biased. For example, use Islamic terrorism, not "Islam and terrorism"; however, "Media's coupling of Islam and terrorism" may be acceptable. Avoid the use of "and" to combine concepts that are not commonly combined in reliable sources." Like this one, for example.
There doesn't appear to be a "Torture and the Native Americans." For laughs, the Algonquins (among others, I suppose) cut the knuckles off their captives to see whether they would scream or not. They thought it hilarious if they did. Well, no tv in those days. What are you going to do for entertainment? Nor "Torture and Ancient Rome," nor (there has to be an article someplace) "Torture and Nazi Germany." For current countries, we have articles on the worst (North Korea, Russia (I assume they mean USSR), Iraq (former?), Iran, and, at the other extreme, The United States, United Kingdom and Canada! Go figure! Student7 (talk) 22:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: And?

message: Not that anyone seems to care, but the lead states "US government." But the text contains not only US government, but state government, county government, and (I suppose) municipal government. If you want to make this a list of every government level in the U.S., it could at least be specified in the lead. Student7 (talk) 15:57, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Definition wrong

message: A BBC/Guardian combined report has found that the US funded and oversaw systematic torture by Iraqi paramilitary during the Iraq War. James Steele (US Colonel), who had in the 1980s overseen the training of death squads in the "dirty war" in El Salvador, was put in charge of training Shia paramilitary and attended their torture interrogations. Torture centres were set up with millions of dollars of US funding. Torture involved severe beatings, electric shocks, hanging upside-down, use of drills and ripping out fingernails, among other methods. Some detainees died. US soldiers were present at interrogations of this kind and were directed not to intervene. Steele spent a great deal of his time in these centres, along with Colonel James Coffman, General Petraeus' special adviser, who worked side by side with Steele in the torture centres, according to witnesses. General Petraeus also worked closely with Steele, and according to witnesses Petraeus was aware that torture was being used, and even requested that videotapes of it not be shown on Iraqi television. The US embassy was aware of these abuses, and notified Washington of them.
Steele had been appointed and sent to Iraq by Donald Rumsfeld, and Steele's memos were granted such high status during his operations there that President Bush received them. Steele was also previously involved in the Iran-Contra affair in Nicaragua (one of six planners including Oliver North) and was appointed by Dick Cheney to set up the police force in Panama following the overthrow of Noriega. So he was closely connected with top US officials running the Iraq War: Rumsfeld, Cheney, Petraeus. Washington was aware of the abuses of this Iraqi paramilitary that they were funding and equipping, and knew the track-record of the man they'd commissioned to train them.
And to top it all off, the leaks by Bradley Manning provided key evidence and were instrumental in enabling the investigation to even begin.
Not sure how all this should be incorporated in this page, but I think it should be. Especially as it's received virtually zero coverage in US corporate media (though plenty in Europe). See also the DemocracyNow report which contains transcripts of some portions of the documentary, and interview with the film's executive producer. Fuzzypeg★ 14:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Oh, and it might be worth adding that these tortures and the numerous murders by the Iraqi paramilitary were blamed for being a major cause of civil war in Iraq. Fuzzypeg★ 14:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Iraq Torture centres trained, equipped and overseen by US 

message: The lead concludes with
"...one U.K. judge observed 'America's idea of what is torture ... does not appear to coincide with that of most civilized nations'.[2] A two-year study by a U.S. independent group concluded that it was "indisputable" that U.S. forces had employed torture as well as "cruel, inhuman or degrading" treatment in many interrogations; that "the nation's most senior officials" bear ultimate responsibility for allowing and contributing to the spread of these techniques, and that there is substantial evidence that information obtained by these methods was neither useful nor reliable.[3]"
The problem here is that the U.S. Government had concluded something else which preceded these statements. The "U.K. judge" is just one person and doesn't even represent the U.K.
The "2-year study" was by the hyper-named "Constitution Project" which originally was made to sound official. Its report sets that straight. Obama refused to appoint a scapegoat-finding commission when first elected, therefore, the CP decided to set things right. The CP is a self-appointed bunch of people, mostly lawyers with an axe to grind, but with a few military and Republicans sprinkled in for effect.
Neither of these "rebuttals" comes even close to refuting the prior denial by the U.S. Government. It would be almost better to say: "there were disagreements," or "not everyone agreed." or something. At least this is not an overweening attempt to try to be equal to the U.S. Government. 
You need a heavy hitter here. These are weak and, upon analysis, would make a reader think that there were few substantial objections. Student7 (talk) 01:55, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Weak lead

message: The title is "Torture in the United States" but includes torture outside of the United States. Possibly the article title should be changed to something else. Or the material moved to a separate article. Student7 (talk) 21:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's clear that it's torture by the united states in other parts of the world. If you think it might be unclear, you could say "torture abroad by the US government" or something. Bali88 (talk) 01:31, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you are talking about a subsection title inside the article. I am talking about an article name change. "Torture by the United States" sounds funny. "Torture as a United States government policy" sounds more accurate but a trifle long-winded. I think we need to upgrade accuracy though. Most American citizens did not participate in this torture, per se, though they may have agreed with the policy. But it needs to be properly attributed IMO. Student7 (talk) 21:17, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Torture abroad?

message: Torture and the United States? 72.69.187.111 (talk) 18:49, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  And? 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The article seems overly focused on the George W. Bush administration, and has too little content about:
*Justification/defense of torture 
*Content past 2010.
**(And every statement about 2011 and after seems to be prefaced with phrases like "as recent as")
*The comparison between the U.S. and other countries
*Content generally about 'torture and the United States' in contexts other than the U.S. federal government's alleged use of torture on foreigners as part of the War on Terror.
For this reason, I believe this as written article is biased, outdated, and incomplete.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  19:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't see much bias here, since this article already includes a section about historical practices of torture during the 19th and 20th centuries. What other events should be described in this article, specifically? Jarble (talk) 21:27, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The CIA torture report is the first thing that comes to mind. Also as I said before, including the opinions of those that think torture is justified. Also, what about the states? None Hardly any of the state governments have done this, while the federal government does frequently? And what about conflicts other than the War on Terror? And what do the U.S. Presidents themselves think?  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  21:52, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

text: I also agree with many of the other complaints on this talk page, like #Countries with US training section, #And?, and #Title inaccurate? — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  22:07, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Overfocus on W. Bush 

message: 1) The lead says that the article addresses only those practices qualifying as torture under US law. This implies that there are forms of torture under international law that the article does not discuss. Is that the case?
2) Regarding the quote from a UK judge, from the article it seems that this comment was directed at the narrow definition of the Bush administration, which was over a decade and 3 administrations ago.
3) The quoting of individual opinions seems more appropriate for the main article (if anywhere) than the lead, which should broadly outline either the consensus or varying opinions, but to be quoting individuals seems excessively detailed/specific and more appropriate for the main article.
4) It seems a bit one sided in its criticism, surely there are those that defended the Bush administration, that side should be presented as well. (Altho in light of #2, the lead should be updated, and all this should be moved to the main article.)
Yaakovaryeh (talk) 09:19, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Issues with 2nd paragraph of the lead