Talk:Mohammad Khatami's reforms

message: This whole article is a POV fork created for bashing a living person by User:Patchouli. Please help report this user to wikipedia administrators for putting an end to his sabotage of wikipedia articles. please read these two links for more information on this subject: User_talk:LittleDan#POV_pushing and  Talk:Mohammad_Khatami#Patchouli_edits Barnetj 11:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

message: New though I am, it seems to me inconsistent with Wikipedia's propensity for encyclopedia level articles to include such an obviously heated commentary:
'Upon his election in 1997, Mohammad Khatami promised the populace of Iran "reforms". However, after eight years of presidency nothing tangible was accomplished[1] except hundreds of arrests and quashings of real demonstrations '
Furthermore, although the first cited source does refer to Khatami's admission of failure to effect reform, the second citation does aught to support the claim of 'hundreds of arrests and quashings of real demonstrations'.
Farther along in the article, the comment is made under 'Criticism' that it is not known how a mullah can bring freedom. This is a subjective remark, unverifiable, bordering on incendiary, and does not seem in keeping with Wikipedia's neutrality.
The article, IMO, needs to be re-written with a focus on excising the author's personal bias--I followed to this article from the original Khatami article and discerned that the author is frequently accused of opinionated statements--as well as answering a larger question: Why is this an article?Arkeides 21:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't have any intention of accusing of being a sockpuppet.
Creating several articles relating to a single entity is not uncommon.  See .  With respect to the neutral viewpoint, recall that "Using formal legal terms inappropriately regarding Wikipedia policy" is wikilawyering.  
Nonetheless, you are welcome to add citations, link to other articles, and improve the article.  --Patchouli 06:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I'm not sure as to how I'm misusing legal terms regarding Wikipedia policy. The statement, 'hundreds of arrests and quashings of real demonstrations' is not substantiated by the citing, and is written in a subjective manner consistent with non-neutral thought. I am, however, new, and open to education as to 'wikilawyering'.
--Arkeides 16:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Before I go tinkering with your expression of information, Patchouli, I'd like to discuss my proposed change--I'd like to rework the first paragraph, dropping the comment concerning quashed protests, torture, imprisonment, etc., as the citation does not support it. Perhaps something along the lines of an emphasis on Khatami's own remarks on his reforms over his tenure as President is sufficient enough? I'd like to hear your thoughts, again, before I wade in in an attempt to improve the article.
--Arkeides 16:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

text: I double-checked the source--citation 2, from the Guardian--just to make sure I'm not speaking in error. The article mentions one individual jailed during a pro-democracy protest in 1999; is this enough to argue that the demonstration was 'quashed'? I'm vaguely familiar with stories of demonstrations in America wherein someone invariably winds up arrested; that doesn't necessarily imply 'quashed'...I'd call 'quashed'  more of what happens in Belarus, or perhaps what they're attempting to do in Oaxaca. Is there verifiable evidence that during Khatami's reign, protests were crushed? And if so--I'm really not knowledgeable enough to say either way--is there a better citation available?
--Arkeides 20:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Neutrality 

message: Please refrain from reverting to previous versions without proper explanation in the talk page. Barnetj 11:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You have removed multiple sources and keeping saying rule of law when you actually mean rule of sharia.--Patchouli 12:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Rule of law means Rule of law and law means Iranian law. Rule of sharia has no meaning as it does not have a standard definition and each school of thought has a different interpretation of it. Before Khatami, it was very common that Iranian authorities ignore the rules. Iranian law is, in some aspects very much modern, and close to the international declaration of human rights. Fooladin 20:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Khatami did refer to the protesters of the 1999 riots.  You can see his own comments + references.  He specifically denounced "Those fanatics with twisted minds".  MEMRI has the video with English closed-caption.  You can say that he wanted to appease his fellow mullahs to stay in power, but he censured the rioters even in the 1999 news reports.  
You just want to water down the article.  Even if I spent lots of time to add a reference after every word and even the common knowledge that he was president for 8 years, then you would still object.--Patchouli 15:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Patchouli, 1. When Khatami said "those fanatics with twisted minds" he was refering to hardline islamists such as the Ansar hezbollah and other pressure groups, not Akbar Mohammadi -  2. What do you mean by "watering down"?! This is an encyclopeida. It's not a political forum. Nothing should be "heated up" in the first place, to need "watering down" later. You are not allowed to imply and push your own point of view in the article. Barnetj 15:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Question--the version present yesterday had a far more fleshed out and far less incendiary opening paragraph. Why the reversion to the more inflammatory state, and why the protection? I'm new; please help me understand.
--Arkeides 16:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I had written that version. But then Patchouli reverted it and filed a request to protect the page because of edit warring! The administrator seems to have taken his word for it and protected the page! Barnetj 16:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: As I've already said, the current version of the page isn't necessarily the correct one. The page is protected because you cannot agree on its content. As soon as you have agreed, or come to a compromise, request it to be unprotected. Thanks. --Alex (Talk) 16:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Alex, when I said "the administrator seems to have taken his word for it" I was referring to Patchouli's claim of 'edit warring'. One revert does not count as 'edit warring'. However I'm not insisting on unprotecting the page in either case, because that's not going to solve the problem (as I have already explained to you). I believe Patchouli will continue to revert my edits even if you unprotect the page.  Barnetj 19:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

text: Patchouli, your reversion of this article is consistent with pushing a point of view. Alex, I understand (I think) why the article is protected, however, the version you 'protected' is one with demonstrated bias inconsistent with encyclopedic text. Perhaps additional persons can be brought to bear, to establish consensus on what version to ascribe to?
--Arkeides 22:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Reverting  

message: Nobtable controversies are permissible in lead sections.  For example, the George W. Bush article doesn't omit Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse and others.--Patchouli 20:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Beginning of the article

message: This article addresses Khatami's domestic reforms. Therefore only criticisms by Iranians and non Iranian academics who are expert on Iran's internal affairs, may be included in the article. Of course no one include a criticism by an Iranian journalist or Iranian mayor in the page of the president of the United States. In the same line, an idea by an American journalist or mayor may not be included here, as they  are not qualified to comment on Iran's internal affairs. Only and only, well known and educated experts on Iranian studies and history of contemporary Iran can comment on president Khatami's reforms. Monfared 20:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Khatami never said his reforms is within the framework of Islam or Sharia. He alwasy insisted in the reform within the frame work of Iranian constitution. Iranian constitution is only partly derived from Islam (and a very specific interpretation of Islam, which is not acceptable by many clerics like Mesbah Yazdi).   Monfared 11:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Iranian constitution puts Islam above Iran.--Patchouli 04:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Nonsense. Khatami was the president of Iran not the president of Islamic world. Sorry. Besides Iranian constitution was written based on French Fifth Republic, Belgium constitution  and Islam (a very particular interpretation). Monfared 14:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Khatami said: "The president of the republic ought to be able to act with more power, and 100 percent within the framework of the constitution" Monfared 15:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

text: Please do not make personal attacks. Iranians are very well infomed about American Enterprise Institute! Monfared 15:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it not strike you as SLIGHTLY biased to declare which sources are qualified to comment? -Amarkov blahedits 15:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Criticisms

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