Talk:Converso

message: The subject of these two articles is the same, it's simply a matter of having two terms for the same thing. Also note that in both w:pt and w:es there is only one article under the title "New Christian", and "Converso" is just a redirect to "New Christian". EuTugamsg 00:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge from [[New Christian]] 

message: Our articles' explanations of the boundaries between all these terms is very poor and very unclear. Conversos means "The converted", "Marranos" means "Those who now eat pork" and then we also have "New Christians" as referred to above, All these terms started out as referring to both Iberian Jews and Muslims who had converted, but in modern writings may refer only to ex-Jews whilst "Moriscos" refers to ex-Muslims. So all the terms mean the same thing. See for example:
* "Unless otherwise indicated, the terms Conversos, Marranos and New Christians are used in this work synonymously. Each of them has long served to designate the same group in Jewish, Spanish and European scholarship" (page vii of The origins of the Inquisition in fifteenth century Spain, Volume 1, Benzion Netanyahu, 1995)
In the three wikipedia articles, none of this is clear and is very confusing for a reader - this needs to be tidied up. So my suggestion is (1) merge the articles, and (2) provide a better comparative explanation of the names.
Oncenawhile (talk) 07:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge Converso / Marrano / New Christian 

message: The article claims that conversos continued observing Jewish traditions. This can't be true regarding all the descendants of the actual converts (who are also conversos according to this article's definition), at least those who remained in Spain and Portugal.
Netanyahu in his Origins of the Inquisition in Fifteenth Century Spain goes even further and attempts to prove that the second-generation conversos retained almost none of Jewish practices. The article should describe the eventual assimilation of conversos and the existence of different opinions on how quickly it happened. Alæxis¿question? 06:18, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Perpetuation of Jewish Heritage 

message: I believe this Wikipedia page should begin to expand on specific groups of Conversos who left Spain and Portugal to live in different parts of Europe, and to further elaborate on what their lives were like in those regions. A a new section should be created called “Conversos by Country,” and I will begin to add research and information specifically about Italian Conversos. I want to elaborate on the life of Jews who converted to Roman Catholicism in Spain and Portugal, who then immigrated to respective Italian cities in search for better life. All of the following information is derived from Renee Levine Melammed's book, A Question of Identity: Iberian Conversos in Historical Perspective, published by Oxford University Press in 2004.
I want to elaborate on examples of how Conversos were looked at with suspicion and harassment both in their old and new communities. I will begin my excerpt by talking about the general scope of Jews in Italy (30,000 Jews and 5,000-8,000 Conversos), then proceed to explain the life of Conversos in the three specific Italian cities that first openly accepted Conversos.
For the history of the city of Ferrara, I will ensure to reference what the Lettres Patentes that were issued by Duke Ercole II meant (in order to provide better background knowledge), and I will further explain why the plague in this city made many conversos relocate to Venice. Following this information, I will inform readers that Venice slowly became a center for conversos, describe what they did there, and how many of them struggled with their identities between their Christian and Jewish faiths.
The second part of the Italian Conversos hader will discuss conversos in Ancona who faced difficult lives living under the pope, and eventually fled to Ferrara in 1555. Portuguese conversos in Ancona were falsely misled that they were welcome to Ancona, by openly converting back to Judaism, then being overturned by the succeeding pope, Pope Paul IV. The conversos in Ancona faed traumatic emotional damage, and caused much skepticism among them when the duke granted a charter of residence in return for the conversos building up the city’s economy in 1558.
The third part will discuss the history of conversos in Venice. Venetian leaders were convinced to openly accept conversos becoming Jews because they recognized that if conversos were not welcome in Venice, they would take their successful trades to the country’s economic rival of Turkey. I will then proceed to explain the life of the majority Portuguese conversos in Venice.
If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. Yasi126 (talk) 04:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Adding information on Conversos in Italy 

message: In Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_February_24#Category:New_Christians there is a proposal for merging :Category:New Christians with :Category:Conversos. Feel free to join the discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merge categories? 

message: Sorry to re-open this, as i did with the "New Christian" category. I´m bringing it up here instead of edditing because I learned that this seems to be more controversial than I expected it to be. I ping the users I saw debate on the issue about new Christians to make sure things go smooth.     
I wanted to mention that:
"The majority of Spain's Jews converted to Christianity as a result of the pogroms in 1391." That issimply not true. Those riots were extrenely localized and brieph. Mostof Spain was unaffected, and most ofthe jews in the area didn´t convert but moved to Portugal to return after the civil war fueling it was over (check Peter the Cruel of Spain). Not to mention that "the majority of jews of Spain" didn´t live anywhere close to the riots. Maximo Diago: La movilidad de los judíos a ambos lados de la frontera entre las coronas de Castilla y Aragón durante el siglo XIV. Sefarad, Vol 63, No 2 (2003)
"Conversos who did not fully or genuinely embrace Catholicism, but continued to practise Judaism in secrecy were referred to as judaizantes ("Judaizers") and pejoratively as marranos ("swine")" . 
This, again, isn´t exactly true. Marranos wasn´t a term used for jews that didn´t convert. The term is derogatory, probably prior to the edict of Granada, and is used for jews and for conversos of jewish origin, not for jews who didn´t convert per se. It was also used to refer to the Spanish in the rest of Europe, because they had cohabitated with the jews for so long that they were asumed to be "poluted". It is slang, so the definition is hard to pinpoint, but it certainly didn´t refer to jews who didn´t conver especifically. It mainly refers to jews, and it was used on conversos, or on anyone who was presumed to have jewish origin, as a way to remark their jew origin. It was used, with some variations, as far as in Germany, but there the meaning changed to indicate "Spaniard", or Mediterranean in general terms. It is the closest to a racial term of the entire set (judeizante, converso, Anusim, New christian, etc...). As for "ocnversos who didn´t embrace catholicism" but still attempted to live in Spain permanently, they weren´t called anything, they were expelled.
Again, if sources are needed, I give the RAE dictionary itself,,Elvia Acosta Zamora: Informaciones de legitimidad, limpieza y buenas costumbres
,Mercedes Blanco: La cultura ibérica del exilio marrano: Góngora y Camões. https://journals.openedition.org/e-spania/26683.El antisemitismo de Quevedo: ¿obsesivo o residual?. Sefarad Vol 57, Fasc. 1 (1997) Regarding the use of "marrano" to refer to the Spanish, from the top of my head I remember Juan de Maldonado: El Movimiento de Espana: O Sea Historia de La Revolucion Conocida Con El Nombre de Las Comunidades de Castilla (1840) or the complains of the Papa Alejandro VI.
''
"Conversos played an important role in the 1520–1521 Revolt of the Comuneros, a popular uprising and civil war centered in the region of Castile against the imperial pretensions of the Spanish monarchy.[2] "''
That is likely to be not true either. It seems to have been a myth spread by the monarchy itself to justify it´s position. The moanrchy did create a lot of those, including that the COmuneros were influenced by demons and corrupt priests.This ideas didn´t go too far in Spain itself (initially) but did so in France and the germanic states, which was a good way of keeping population there from revolting too. It is found in the same sources that say that the comuneros were guided by witches and things along those lines. You can still find this idea in some sources (like the one cited, I assume, even though I don´t think a book about the inquisition in Mexico can go too in depth regarding the comuneros revolt), but it is higly disputed. I cite, Claudio César Rizzuto: Conversos, jews and diabolic conspiracy in the Revolt of the Comunidades of Castile, 1520-1521. Cuadernos de Historia ModernaISSN: 0214-4018 but I can probably find more. This has been a hot topic in the last 20 years.  
PD:  , I´m usually very, very, very careful with my sources, and I tend to give too many sources, more than to few. You mentioned in the past that I gave non reliable sources, or none at all. Unless you mean "not in English" by "non reliable", I´m not sure of what you mean. I´d love to go over those sources with you and talk about them a little bit more. It seems that anything regarding judaism is particularly important for you, and I´m fien with trying to find sources in English if that´s part of the problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cateyed (talk • contribs) 20:02, August 11, 2019 (UTC)
:  Since you appear to have access to these sources, could you please expand them, and include page numbers, please? Also, as a point of verifiability policy: if sources of equivalent quality are available in English, then they should be preferred over non-English sources, but if they are not, sources in Spanish (or any language) are fine. 
: While I agree with your comment rejecting the statement that "the majority converted" following the 1391 pogroms (some estimates say about one third did, e.g., Beinart 1992, "The Great Conversion"), regarding your assertion that they were localized and brief, can you define your terms? Iirc, spread to about 70 other cities in Spain, taking place over many months in different locales. Many fled within Spain, or as you point out, west to Portugal. In particular, you cite Diago (2003) as support for your claims but I see no support there.  I searched the source (download), but the terms or fragments 1391, revuelta, pogromo, expuls, antisemit, masasacre do not appear anywhere in the 46-page article.  Did you mean to cite a different article here? Or maybe I missed it.
: Marrano was the local pejorative term for judaizante which later in academic circles became known as a crypto-Jew, and marranismo as crypto-Judaism. The term remained pejorative through the 15th-17th c., approximately, then became adopted in European historiography without the pejorative connotations. The whole article needs a "Terminology and related terms" section; something similar to this one at es-wiki, but better and more complete.
: Not familiar with the "fake news", 16th c. version, which you raised, but I'll have to get informed.
: Finally, there isn't complete agreement on the definition of converso, with some taking the narrower view that it only includes cryto-Jews "forced" to convert (from Hebrew anus, forced) but maintaining connection to the religion, and others taking a broader view that it's anyone forced to adopt another religion, without an implication that they practiced Judaism. This, imho, is at the root of the disagreement among some editors here, whether New Christian is a synonym for converso or not.
: P.S. If English is not your native language, be aware that Jew is a noun. Using it as an adjective, as you did above, in "", is considered derogatory by some. Use Jewish in this context. Both words are capitalized in English. Thanks,  Mathglot (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  The entire definition