Talk:Zaydism

message: I am not twelver or Zaidi.  Yet, I respect Imam Zaid as the Imam before Jafar Sadiq.  As for the edits, if you can find sources for your claims then post them if not, don't delete sourced materialAl-Zaidi (talk) 05:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Zabarah

message: In the first paragraph:
Zaiddiyah (also: Zaidi, Zaydi, Zaydiyah, or in the West Fivers) Zaidis are the descendants of Zayd ibn Ali and Zaydiyah is a sect of the followers of Zayd as imam.
At the bottom:
Not All Zaidis believe that Zaid is the true Imam but believe a fighter of ture. (fight against corrupt rulers)
The second needs copyediting no matter what, but I'm too ignorant to touch it.  If the boundaries of the sect are really so fluid, it should be at the top, not at the bottom. --Mgreenbe 19:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I reverted until sources are cited as per Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Thanks. El_C 11:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Contradiction 

message: I rm The Zaidi believe that Mohammed, the prophet will come back to earth as the Mahdi, and many believe he is already here. This may be true but I see no support for it. John Reid 03:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Unsourced 

message: I rm this block of text: 
----
By: Sayyid 'Ali ibn 'Ali Al-Zaidi
The Zaidi sect was started by the Sahaba of Zaid bin 'Ali (as) companions Abu'l Jarud Ziyad ibn Abi Ziyad, Sulayman ibn Jarir, Kathir an-Nawa Al-Abtar and Hasan ibn Salih.
The Zaidi sect then divided into three groups: 
The earliest group called Jarudiyya (Abu'l Jarud Ziyad ibn Abi Ziyad), was opposed to the approval of the companions of Muhammad. They held that there was sufficient description given by the Prophet (saw) so that all should recognised Imam 'Ali. They therefore consider the companions sinful in failing to recognise Imam 'Ali. They also denied legitamacy to Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman, they also denounce Talha, Zubair, and Aisha. This sect was active during the late Umayyad and earky 'Abbasid period. Its views although predominated among the later Zaidis, became extinct due to similarities with the Ithna 'Ashari sect. 
The second group, Sulaimaniyya (Sulayman ibn Jarir), held that the Imamate should be a matter to be decided by consultation. They felt that the companions, including Abu Bakr and 'Umar, had been in error in failing to follow Imam 'Ali but did not amount to sin. Talha, Zubair, and Aisha became disbelievers. 
The third group is Tabiriyya, Butriyya or Salihiyya (Kathir an-Nawa Al-Abtar and Hasan ibn Salih). They are identical with the Sulaimaniyya. The only difference is that this group do not revile 'Uthman. 
Zaidi beliefs are moderate compared to other Shi'i sects. The Zaidis do not believe in the infallibility of the Imams, nor that they receive divine guidance. Zaidis also do not believe that the Imamate must pass from father to son, but believe it can be held by any descendant of Imam 'Ali. They also reject the Twelver notion of a hidden Imam, and like the Ismailis believe in a living imam, or even imams.
In matters of theology, they adhere to the Mu'tazalia (as the other Shi'i sects). In matters of law or fiqh, the Zaidis are actually closest to the Sunni Shafi'i school, with elements of the Sunni Hanafi and Shi'i schools.
(Momen, p.50, 51. and S.S. Akhtar Rizvi, "Shi'a Sects")
The first Zaidi state was established in Tabaristan (northern Iran) in 864 (AD); it lasted until the death of its leader at the hand of the Samanids in 928 (AD). Forty years later the state was revived in Gilan (north-western Iran) and survived under Hasanid leaders until the 12th century.
Zaidis form the dominant religious group in Yemen, and the leader of the Zaidi community took the title of Caliph. As such, the ruler of Yemen was known as the Caliph, al-Hadi Yahya bin al-Hussain bin al-Qasim (a scion of Imam al-Hasan (as), grandson of the Prophet) who, at Sa'da, in the last decade of the 9th century, founded the Zaidi Imamate and this system continued until the middle of the 20th century, due to the revolution of 1962.
(The Encyclopaedia of Islam, second edition) 
(Religious Trends in Early Islamic Iran, Wilferd Madelung, Albany 1988)
----
This appears to be a straight lift from the cited sources. You're welcome to show this appearance is mistaken. If the text is not copied from these sources then the text may be reinserted; however the sources should be moved to another section of their own (References). John Reid 03:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Copyvio 

message: Well i am Waqas Zaidi. I am also from the family lineage of Zaid bin Ali. Me and my whole family (clan) dont believe that Zaid was true Imam. We believe that his brother Imam Baqir was truer then him. Also we believe in infallibles. (the 14 infallibles).. We are part of Shia Itna Ashri (the twelver) and we did not convert our selve to it. we were twelver since Hazrat Zaid. because according to us Zaid never claimed himself as Imam, only some people accepted him. hope this clear of confusions..
Given what you said, I can say that neither you nor your family are Zaidis, rather, you are Jarowdis. Al-Jarowdiyah are those who have the same beliefs as the Shite of Iran. 
Zaidi 21:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Zaidi 

message: This page is in desperate need of a revert. Not sure how to do it myself, and I'm a little pressed for time at this moment, but it would be great if someone could do the honours. Blythe49 12:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Revert 

message: PLEASE NOTE: There is a very big difference between the Zaidis and Zaidiyas. The whole school of thought is different and the fundamental principles are quite the opposite. This article needs to be re-written, specifying Zaidiyas and the Zaidis and using correct names in its places as it is very misleading. Please refer elsewhere for details as well. --SalimZaidi (talk) 11:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You are probably Indian or Pakistani, that would explain why you say Zaidiya.  followers of the Zaidi Fiqh call themselves "Zaidi" this is from the Arabic of being from Zaid thus rendering Zaidi,  which is the same derivative of the indo-pak family known as the Zaidis whom are Sayyid descendants of Zaid. To indo-pakis this poses a linguistic problem, for Arabs it doesn't when we say Zaidi we mean followers of the Fiqh when we are referring to the descendants we say either Sayyid Zaidi or Az-Zaidi.  In Arabic and English it is very clear and the page does not have to be moved.  for indo-pakis who speak Urdu, its difficult to understand.Al-Zaidi (talk) 02:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Moved from article 

message: not all zaidis are Shiite ...i am a Sunni Zaidi ...pleas provide the percentage of zaidi people according to the sect or some comparison of Sunni and Shiite zaidis
This is false. Your words do not echo sourced material and Zaidism follows the Shia mode of thinking up until The 4th Shia Imam. 
Zaidi’s are a branch of Shiism. JasonMoore (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: Haider has excellent publications on the subject. I have added a couple of his works to the list of references in the article. His take: (1) Zaydism changes in time, occasionally coming pretty close to Sunni views and (2) generally still considered in the Shia territory at all times. Викидим (talk) 07:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sunni Zaidis 

message: The article said the following:
:The Zaidi has a unique theological perspective on deities in which the 99 names of Allah as followed by other Muslims correspond to 99 separate deities in the Zaidi Sect.
Not only is no source given for this, it seems very unlikely -- I think it is most likely false propaganda spread by other Islamic sects. If Zaidis actually believed this, it would be a form of polytheism, so not something one would expect an Islamic sect to believe (or if they did, it would be widely condemned as ghulat). I can't find anything about this, so I am assuming it is just made up. --SJK (talk) 10:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Your assumption is correct.Al-Zaidi (talk) 11:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removed claim about 99 names of God 

message: After the section on the imams, there is another section titled "Summary." But per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, isn't the lead supposed to be a summary?
Is there a way we can break that section apart and scavenge the sources for other sections in the article? Or can we just move it into the lead? MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Seconded. Is there someone with knowledge here to do a proper summary section? 2601:C:AB80:3D1:BE5F:F4FF:FE35:1B41 (talk) 03:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Why a summary section? 

message: There are 2 conflicting statements in the article:
* "Imam Zayd ibn Ali did not themselves write any books"
* "Zaydis follow Zayd ibn ’Ali's teachings which are documented in his book Majmu’ al-Fiqh"
Did he or did he not?? Kipala (talk) 11:24, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
thread_title: Book or no book??

message: The US State Department report given does not specifically state the percentage of Zaidi-Shi'a in Yemen. In fact, it states clearly that there are no official statistics on how many Shi'a (of any kind) are in Yemen. It only states that "35 percent of the population is estimated to be Shia" without defining specific sects of Shi'a. I've marked it as not in citation, and will completely remove, rewrite if someone doesn't have a better citation soon. If I've done this by the time you read this, please rewrite with appropriate citation. 2601:C:AB80:3D1:BE5F:F4FF:FE35:1B41 (talk) 03:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Percentage of Zaidi-Shi'a in Yemen

message: I've tagged the only two citations for this section as verification needed as per WP:Verifiability. Both salvartionark.com and shiachat.com are clearly non-verifiable sources that don't adhere to guidelines (they are both self-published and non-secondary sources). I will come back in a bit and completely delete that section (as those are the only citations given) if no one has any sources that adhere to WP standards. 2601:C:AB80:3D1:BE5F:F4FF:FE35:1B41 (talk) 04:44, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: A cite is badly needed. The list is clearly incomplete and pretty useless without territory/years. I have added a . Imams of Yemen are well-documented (see sources in Imams of Yemen). For the Qasimi period, see Haider (2021) on p.214, these names are not on the list in our article. A full list of 67 imams of Yemen until 1962 can be found in  on pp. 104-107, it does not seem to correlate much with the list in this article (is does with Imams of Yemen). Unfortunately, pp. 104-107 are not freely available. Викидим (talk) 08:11, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title: Zaidi Imāms

message: The section  has several subsections, each named for and briefly describing a "dynasty". The usual connotation of the term "dynasty" is of a ruling family, successive rulers being blood relations.  However, in some contexts, a religious dynasty refers to a sequence of leaders chosen for their spiritual or religious merit, rather than by common descent.  So it seems clear that, in either connotation, this section could be labelled Dynasties.  Surely that would be preferable to the label Empires, which usually refers to reign over extensive areas and lands and many distinct peoples (and often, many distinct cultures)?  None of the "dynasties" mentioned here seem to have ever held sway over large territories.  If, in fact, the "dynasties" mentioned in this section were blood relations, the title Ruling families would be even less ambiguous and therefore preferable.  But in any case, the present title Empires is misleading.  yoyo (talk) 09:09, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: , this section needs a coherent source, not just links to other articles. Викидим (talk) 08:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Empires, ruling families, or dynasties? 

message: Maybe the meaning of Fivers should be explained - where the term comes from.
Recognition of the same four caliphs as Shias but the fifth is different if I'm not mistaken? Kats98712411:04, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Meaning of Fivers 

message: :The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 
The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover)  Jerm (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Zaidiyyah →   Zaydism is the WP:COMMONNAME now. See  [Ngrams]  PZMir (talk) 10:55, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
thread_title: Requested move

message: The lead talks at length about the "obedience" without an explanation, using a (very rare outside of this article) term "imam of obedience". This terminology is not used in any long research treatment of the subject, there is no cite in our article either. Is this a "true imam" of the Twelvers? If yes, this appears to be a wrong statement: Zaydis seem to allow imam selection based on merit, not predestination. If cite is not found, I will remove the sentences form the lead. Викидим (talk) 20:24, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: Removed. If someone finds a cite, please let me know. Викидим (talk) 09:05, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Obedience 

message: Somehow the "low importance" of the topic for Yemen sounds unconvincing. Викидим (talk) 06:43, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Project rating 

message: There are literally two history sections in the article. I did not create any of these, and am simply (slowly) doing a rewrite of the first one using the sources at the bottom of the article that look solid to me (Zaydism#Further reading). If anyone has objections to any of these, please voice them here, as I am not connected to Yemen or Yemen-related scholarship in real life, and thus will happily consider other sources. With one of the books printed in late 2023, although apparently hastily put together (note the references to "this dissertation" inside), I see no reason to use any online sources, especially news  (this article is not about the current events in Yemen, after all, and can easily be made non-controversial). Викидим (talk) 09:03, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Two histories 

message: @Викидим, it says in the history section of the article that:
Northern iran should be in the infobox + the Houthis, although they're the largest practicers of this sect-thingy, aren't the only group that practices it Abo Yemen✉ 10:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: It is my understanding that the section "Regions with significant populations" means current significant populations (at least that is how it is used in the articles I've checked). As the text you quote suggests, Zaidism in Iran is long extinct. The  appears to have no documentation, alas. Викидим (talk) 19:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
replies: text: aight Abo Yemen✉ 08:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
thread_title:  Regions