Talk:Richard O'Connor

message: I'm very late in mentioning it, but this page has been listed on WP:TFA as a potential candidate for appearing on the Main Page. The current proposal is December 8th, the start of Operation Compass. Comments on this, or other proposed dates, can be made on WP:TFA. Leithp (talk) 11:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Main Page 

message: Was Richard born in Srinigar or Srinagar? I found a source that says he was born in Srinigar. Are they distinct places? ~MDD4696 (talk • contribs) 16:53, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure. Srinagar is both the name of a distict and its capital city. So was he born in the district or in the town? Srinigar, if it is a different place, is also in the same area. So he may have been born in Srinigar in Srinagar district. For now, to avoid further confusion and edit wars, let's just let the older version stand until the frenzy dies down and we can discuss and make changes at a more thoughtful pace. This is difficult to do when every 10 minutes some IP Freely anon vandal blanks the entire article or adds in some witless vulgarity or sexually retarded remark.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 17:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

text: In fact Srinigar calls the place Srinagar in the first bolded word of the page! Dabbler 17:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: My guess is Srinagar and Srinigar are one in the same place. They went "A Vowel too far" ;)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 18:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I have confirmed that Srinigar and Srinagar are the same and have proposed a merger on their discussion pages.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 05:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Birth place? 

message: This section is important and actually contains an analysis suited to go into the lead, because it's what the casual reader actually cares about.  But as written it doesn't sound very academic.  Examine statements:
* "it has also caused him to be largely and unjustly overlooked" (unjust?)
* "his unfortunate capture" (can't it just say capture?)
* "Yet he never seemed unduly bitter or resentful" (seemed?  unduly?)
This can be condensed and support for his significance can be drawn from his various awards.  This strikes me as an appropriate place to be listing what they were, in the lead.  See this version  Metaeducation 20:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: As I said, all this was discussed earlier when the article was an FAC. The casual reader can skim, explore and take what they will from it. I only wanted to create a readable, enjoyable and sympathetic bio on one of the Second World War's forgotten heroes. I wanted to praise the General, not just bury him in terse prose. The assessment section was needed for this reason.  I think it succeeds in being sympathetic without being Hagiographic. It also raises and tries to answer a question fundemental to the article's Wik-istance: Why has O'Connor, given his impressive accomplishments, been largely forgotten? And in doing so it also answers some questions about the man himself, his personality and CHARACHTER. When dealing with such issues, it is very difficult not to be, at least a bit POV. If we did not care about our subjects, one way or another, then why bother writing, or reading, about them at all... --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: NPOV of Assessment Section

message: If a casual reader is attempting to understand whether to read the rest of the article, it seems that strange details were chosen to put in the lead—such as who O'Connor was imprisoned with.  I'm sure O'Connor was around many famous historical figures, but naming one or two breaks continuity.  If details of his imprisonment and his escape are truly worth putting in the lead, then perhaps it deserves more intriguing selections in a second paragraph with an appropriate topic sentence.  A complete summary of his tour of duty makes a nice opening paragraph in any case.  See this version Metaeducation 20:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Those were older edits I allowed to stay because 1)They lead the reader into other, related bios on some equally intriguing persons which the casual reader may also enjoy. 2) Many complained during this article's FAC discussion that the lead was "too short". Having a couple of names in helps to pad it out a bit. I know you like to remove what you deem as unneeded and redundant words, but that path does not always lead to an FA. Compromises must be made. So while I removed the word General, I'm keeping Generals De Wiart and Neame in..for now --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Keeping Focus on O'Connor in lead

message: I changed his name to Lessar CP in honor of the royal FLYING DOCTOR SERVICE. LESSAR CP was a doctor during the battle of the atolls. He saved the life of O'connor...
:Nothing personal, Mortek MC, but you are a loon.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title: Changed his name to LESSAR CP

message: Thanks to all who helped take care of this article while it was on the mainpage. The RC patrol and CV unit truly ROCK most righteously, and I salute you! Once more, thanks --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 06:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  You can help (and you did:) 

message: I hate to be a bore, but thewhole point of post-nominal initials should go with the name not isolated off in a corner. If you are going to do that then just write them up in the article, stating when and for what they were awarded. They are an essential part of the full name, not some caption to be squeezed in at a convenient place. I experimented with moving them above the picture with his name but that probably makes them too prominent. Moving his name into the caption area makes that too small. Can we adjust the font sizes or are they fixed somewhere?
Dabbler 12:29, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: You can increase font size using  & , and probably also by using some HTML code that's way over my head. Leithp (talk) 13:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I actually moved the initials while making them smaller to the correct place and put them after his name, albeit on a new line.Dabbler 15:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: It looks fine to me Dabbler...I think Sir Richard would approve. As I stated in our discussion on my talkpage, just so long as they don't appear in BOTH the introductory sentence AND the biobox. That would be a bit much. But you did good, no objections. Cheers--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 04:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Personally I do not think it is correct not to use the full General Sir Richard O'Connor at least as that was his legal name/title whilst living.  Post nominals should also be included fully.  It is naive to think that anyone on wikipedia has the right to change the styling of an individual in the name of ease or readability.  There are rules as to how to refer to people as decree by the Garter King at Arms and indirectly the Sovereign. Manxy3 19:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Those post-nominals again

message: While O'Connor is an Irish sounding name, and he is listed under the Irish origin people category. I was wondering why O'Connor was given the Order of the Thistle which is by far the most prestigious Scottish order. Was it for his post-war Scottish church work or just generally being a good Scottish person? If so shouldn't it be explained. Most British generals of the time who weren't given a peerage ended up with the Order of the Bath which O'Connor also received. Dabbler 13:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't know about his ancestry but he also joined a Scottish regiment (The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)) when he got his commission, so it seems he had very strong links there. Leithp 13:47, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Fergananim was kind enough and curious enough to do some research into O'Connor's ancestry. Here's what he found: According to Richard Docherty's Ireland's Generals in World War II, "His father, Maurice O'Connor, retired in 1894 but died following an accident in 1903. Up to that point it seems Richard lived at Ballybrock with his parents. However, after Maurice's death, his widow Lillian Morris returned home to Scotland. This is where the strong ties to Scotland come in. Had his father lived, O'Connor would probably have joined his father's unit. Lillian was the daughter of Sir John Morris, KCIS (Knight Commander of the Star of India), who at one time was Governor of India's central provinces."  So his mother was Scottish and but for a tragic twist of fate, he might have ended up as a Knight of the Order of St Patrick instead.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 09:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text:  No he wouldn't as they stopped non royal awards in 1922, long before he would have been considered. So he'd have had the Thistle anywayAlci12 16:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Why the Order of the Thistle?

message: This is a dispute about whether to use the  tag in lieu of several  tags throughout the article.
;Statements by editors previously involved in the dispute
*It is not possible to read with all the "citation needed" tags attached to nearly every sentence. Massive overkill. I think we get the point. Please someone remove all that nonsense in favor of just tagging it unreferenced at the beginning of the article!Civil Engineer III 13:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Request for Comment 

message: (As the used furniture salesman said)
Just stopped by to offer my congrads on the good work so far. You have added mucho citations (Folks at 137, Mkpumphrey, Kernel Saunters and Kirrages are to be especially commended here:) and Dormskirk has restored the good General's image, well done sir! But there are still LOADS of uncited passages and we have a long ways to go before this article is up to code once more. Progress has been made, albeit slowly, and I'm pleased by your efforts thus far. So I'm granting a temporary reprieve to uncited materials. Keep up the good work! But remember, I'm keeping an eye or two out.  I'm a patient man, but if I see too little progress I will commence demolition again with little or no warning. If we can only get this up to A or GA quality, I will be satisfied and let the matter rest. --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 14:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Sofa So Good

message: We are almost there! Only a few more cites, mainly at the bottom of the Normandy section, and we will be ready to advance! January 13 2008 was the best day Sir Richard's article has had since December 26 2005. My faith in Wikipedia's processes and power structure may have been shattered beyond repair, but my faith in all the many, fine editors labouring away in the trenches remains intact and has been further reinforced by all your fine efforts here. It has been a long time since I've been as plesantly surprised by anything here on the WP. Thank you! And here's to the final push!--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 14:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Almost there!

message: In Desert War (page 144 of my edition) Alan Moorehead calls O'Connor "this little Irishman". Were his parents Irish?--L'irlandés (talk) 19:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The talk page section above titled "Why the Order of the Thistle?" should answer your question. Leithp 16:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Origins 

message: I regretfully confess that it has been over 2 decades since I last viewed The World At War in its entirety. Now thanks to the wonder that is the infobahn, I'm sitting here watching General O'Connor frankly and modestly discussing his role in the North African campaign (starting at 3:22) . He turned what was intended to be a 4 day offensive into a 2 month long blitzkrieg that damn near ended in total victory! Yet he blames only himself for failing to push on to Tripoli following Compass (at 6:16). I found myself respectfully telling his recorded image that it was no more his fault that Hitler invaded Greece than it was Auchinleck's that Singapore surrendered. 
You can also see in this interview a reason why he never made Field Marshall- He didn't try to take credit for everything that went right, nor pass the blame for anything that went wrong. In part 2 at 00:34 you can hear him discuss his capture. The only reliable source (by Wikipedia standards) I can find for this remarkable footage is the IMDB link which I have added. I strongly urge everyone reading this to go see The World At War. In fact there should be a law making it required viewing in schools and requiring it to be internationally broadcast at least once a year.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 20:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Relevant episode here:   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.11.207 (talk) 15:56, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks for that update, the link had gone bad. You know, with a little more work it would not take much to get this up to Good Article status. Should you, or anyone who still cares reading this, decide to do so you can count on my support. Cheers,--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 00:08, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
replies: text: Updated link here;  - boxed picture I'm afraid but better than nothing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.137 (talk) 14:18, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  O'Connor on The World At War 

message: Philip Parry (1917 - 2006) was part of Sir O'Connor's security detail while he was British Military Governor of Jerusalem. I was told many stories about O'Connor, the man.  My father (who moved to South Africa in 1952) and Sir O'Connor stayed in constant touch with each other until Sir O'Connor's death in June 1981. In May 1981 my father and I went to England to attend the 100th FA Cup Final and it was during that visit that I met Sir O'Connor for the first time.  We also met up with Sir O'Connor's step son, Jamie O'Connor in Edinburgh.  Sir O'Connor told me that my father was the only person that he trusted enough to let Jamie go with into the desert while on active military business that sometimes included combat.  Our family has many photo's of their desert trips, including Colonel Collingwood, who was in charge of Sir O'Connor's security while in Palestine.  We also have numerous letters written to my father from Sir Richard O'Connor.  My father had nothing but honorable words to say about Sir Richard O'Connor.  
Michael W Parry (talk) 19:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  My father, Philip Parry, served under Sir Richard O'Connor in Palestine.   

message: Substituted at 04:22, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: Assessment comment

message: You say this was discussed long ago but do not say where. That discussion apparently did not find its way to MOS:MILTERMS and MOS:JOBTITLES, which say that job titles (military or other) that are common nouns are not capitalized unless they serve as a person's name or part of it.  The jobs adjutant general, aide-de camp general and commander are lower case in dictionaries, both British and American, and they are also lower case in their WP articles. I think any differences in capitalization of UK vs US job titles are imagined, and would certainly be mentioned in the MoS if they were consistent and important. Please restore my changes. Chris the speller yack 05:27, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: Never mind. I will restore my changes as they conform to the guidance that the MoS provides. If you still disagree, you can go to the MoS talk page and see if you can get a consensus to change them. I expect that would be an uphill fight. Chris the speller yack 03:10, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with speller and the MOS on this.  I looked in British books for some of these, and they appear lowercase about as often of uppercase, like most other job titles and like in US books.  So follow our own guidance and avoid unnecessary caps. Dicklyon (talk) 14:27, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

text: Thanks for that philosophy lesson; I shall give it all due consideration. Dicklyon (talk) 04:24, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capitalization of job titles 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: There is a photograph on this page with the original caption 'Brytyjski generał Sir Richard O' Connor w niewoli niemieckiej; Afryka Północna.', or 'British General Sir Richard O'Connor in German captivity; North Africa.'. 
Clearly General O'Connor was captured during this campaign, but this photo looks highly suspicious. I'm not convinced this was taken of O'Connor in captivity. Even for a senior officer, his uniform is spotless and correct, he is flanked by another British officer (also correctly dressed) and local people, and he is wearing Sam Browne and sword - hardly likely to be items he was captured with, or allowed to retain even as a captured general? He also appears to be making a speech - not exactly first on the list of activities allowed to prisoners-of-war? This looks far more plausible as a photograph of an event pre-capture - perhaps I am wrong and he was captured with full uniform and the Germans tolerated him wearing his sword in captivity but I would be very dubious. 86.24.94.156 (talk) 11:15, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Photograph in use 

message: While I am absolutely loving this picture, and I think it should remain, albeit under different caption, I agree with the previous poster that it doesn't show O'Connor in captivity. I additionally think that it was taken in the period between september 1938, when he was promoted to major-general (as confirmed by the collar tabs visible in the photo), and april 1941, when he was captured, probably even during his time in Palestine. As it is defined on the sites where it is currently available, it's authorship is usually captioned as "Presse-Illustrationen Heinrich Hoffmann". Hoffmann, being Hitler's personal photographer, never set foot in north africa, but was involved with several German news photo agencies, literally equivalent of today's Getty images, where this very photo is incidentally available. So in my opinion, this was used as stock photo of O'Connor in German newspapers to illustrate the news of him being captured. Gmalcic (talk) 13:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposal for changing the description of the first captivity photo