Talk:Shine (film)

message: The criticism section is all one sided. It is not objective in pointing out alternative views to the criticism. Furthermore, it is typical of movies to dramatize, but given, this might be all apparent to viewers. Either way, who cares what his sister and mother have said. The movie might be more from the perspective of David or the director's. I for one think it is someone's own choice to do what they will with schooling. Lots of kids are sent to boarding school or similar schools for forming careers. It is David's life, not his father's. 
On the subject of David's music virtuosity, the argument from authority does not have firm ground. This is to say that the authority has not been established as good authority and the authority sources are not evident in the article.
:Well, now the criticism section is thoroughly one-sided the other way.  We have two very long rebuttals without knowing the initial criticism.   As to the question of good authority, the article is correct in saying that Dutton speaks for many critics.  As a matter of fact he speaks for ALL critics as you will not find a single review from a reputable critic that praises Helfgott's pianism (here's a typical review from the New York Times http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E2DD1230F935A35750C0A961958260&n).  I am a musician myself with music degrees and I don't know of anyone who thinks Helfgott is a remotely tolerable musician, let alone a great one.  He is regarded as the Paris Hilton of music -- famous, but not actually respected by peers for having talent.  
:I know this sounds very harsh.  But listen to his recordings alongside one of the greats, and you'll hear that his performances are not only full of mistakes but are devoid of interpretation.  He struggles just to get through the piece.  Most first-year university students play better, but haven't had a movie made about them and so won't get recording contracts and concert bookings.  So people should know that this film mythologizes an emperor with no clothes.99.233.79.5 15:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. The anonymous editor who suggested "argument from authority" is simply wrong.. Firstly, it is not "from authority".. Dutton is cited merely to exemplify an overwhelmingly held viewpoint.  Secondly, it is not an "argument" in the normal sense.. it is simply a notable criticism, not any kind of 'proof' of lack of virtuosity. Zargulon 10:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  About the criticism section 

message: A sample of the Piano Concerto no 3 is linked to from this page. However, I don't think that the fair use rationale is correct, given that Rachmaninoff and this precise recording are not associated with the movie (the fair use rationale would probably be stronger if the sample was actually taken from the movie, but nothing indicates that it is the case). Any opinion ? Schutz 22:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: True, but it's still a valid and notable criticism of "Shine".. What's your point, Exile? Zargulon 14:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fair use for sample of Piano Concerto no 3 

message: Goobergeffer removed my internal link about the Trauma model of mental disorders. I have a lot of work to do in the real world and I’m removing this page from my Watchlist.  I hope, however, that if s/he or another editor removes the trauma link again s/he will state the reasons in this talk page. ―Cesar Tort 20:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Trauma model]] 

message: Does anyone have any evidence that Rush actually played the Rach 3?  First of all, Rush is not playing Helfgott in the parts of the film involving the concerto.  Second, the credits list Helfgott, not Rush, as the performer for the piano music.  I'm thinking that in fact Rush was his own hand double, but that what we hear is actually Helfgott playing. Msridhar 03:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Getting credited as hand double hardly is the same thing as playing the piece itself.  Playing The Rach 3 would require years and years years of training.  Being a hand double is the equivalent of lip-synching.  So this bit of trivia is a huge leap in logic.74.99.213.103 07:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I have removed the claim about Rush playing Rachmaninoff, and added the best citation I could find about Rush's playing.  Msridhar 16:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: This is still highly dubious.  To say that Rush "did all of the filmed piano playing" and he "learned to play the piano for this role" suggests that he's a capable pianist and it's his music on the soundtrack.  Untrue.  In the source cited, the interviewer is the one who claims Rush played at a high level.  Though Rush doesn't deny it, he only claims that he had a tutor and he wanted to be convincing.  Like any actor playing a musician, he took piano lessons and learned enough to fake playing.  Adrien Brody did it for The Pianist, Tom Hulce did it for Amadeus, even Russell Crowe took violin lessons for Master and Commander.  None of them would've been able to perform a concert of standard repertoire.  It's ironic that as the film thoroughly exaggerates the abilities of Helfgott, we are now exaggerating the abilities of the actor who played Helgott.74.99.213.103 22:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel free to edit as you see fit; I have no desire to exaggerate Rush's skills as a pianist.  I found some more info here  , stating that Rush learned piano as a child and picked it up again for the film, so what I've written should be corrected in some way.  Msridhar 00:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rush's Playing of Music 

message: I went to a Rachmaninoff concert a couple of years ago and the program mentioned something about the fact that Helfgott didn't have a breakdown after playing Rach 3 but it was actually another Rachmaninoff's composition.
I'm looking for a reliable source on this but found nothing. Does anyone know about this? if true I think it is worth mentioning here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.212.160.239 (talk) 05:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Real music that Helfgott played before his breakdown. 

message: Hi, I think the Musical Credits section is too bulky but not sure how to downsize it or whether to remove it entirely. Zargulon 00:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Musical credits section 

message: Hmm, is there a tag that indicates "very long quotes/text blocks, edition needed" or something? Medico80 (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Long quotes

message: :Image:Shine ver1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is  other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.  Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 05:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Fair use rationale for Image:Shine ver1.jpg

message: An anonymous editor inserted the following statement into the article:
:David has been "diagnosed" by many experts - always differently. Even if we accept Margaret's somewhat distasteful public diagnosis of "schizo-affective disorder" (which is itself only a polite term for schizophrenia)((***CORRECTION, schizoaffective disorder is really quite different from schizophrenia. Schizoaffective is the combination of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. See "Schizoaffective, a Happier and Healthier Life", by Mary Dodds 2007))
I reverted it because it seemed a bit "colloquial"... its an "edit note" and if there is something to be fixed than it should simply be fixed and not left as a note.  The odd thing is that its inside the quote.  What should we do here?
That brings up another point which I've mentioned in a previous section.  Do we really need such large quotes?  The section on 'inaccuracies' is dominating the article.  Can't we just say that the movie is not a documentary and that Helfgott's life story has been dramatized for the purposes of making a better movie?  Similarly, I think its pretty well accepted that he's not really a world class pianist.  His appeal as a pianist is linked almost entirely to his personal circumstances.  This film is twelve years old now.  There may have been some worry when this movie was in theaters that those unfamiliar with the repertoire might overrate him, but not anymore. DavidRF (talk) 04:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  anon "correction" reverted... 

message: The "Shiners" have gotten a hold of this page.  Shiners are folks so taken in by the story of the movie (which is a story and even the director now admits was dramatized, as it notes in tiny print in the end credits) that they overlook reality.  The reality is, Helfgott was a schizophrenic and schizophrenics can be amazingly manipulative people.
His concert tours and CD sales are all to Shiners, not classical music fans.  No real classical music critics have lauded his music on its own merits.  In classical music, you're either good or you're not.  There is no "Pretty good, for a crazy guy" award.  Your abilities in this field stand on their own, not "in spite of your background".  We don't handicap professional musicians like they are golfers.
The criticism section is now overwhelmed with rebuttals, taken directly from letters written by the film's participants (which may be a copyright violation). I've noticed on the Amazon site for he Margaret Helfgott book, apparently the same person has submitted "reviews" which include these letters verbatim.  Real original thinking there.
The criticism of his music and the portrayal of his family in the movie are valid and should not be drowned out by these cut-and-paste rebuttals from Shiners.  But a paragraph on each is all that is needed.
The "rebuttals" overlook one salient fact:  There was little economic motivation for Margaret Helfgott to refute the portrayal of her Father in the movie, nor for the outcry from many family members and other people who knew the Helfgotts. (the sales of Margaret's book likely barely covered printing costs).
However, there is a whole "Shine" industry today that is predicated on the story in the movie - an industry that to this day books concert tours and sell CD's for the "Shine" faithful.  Burst the "Shine" balloon, and it all comes apart.
I would suggest deleting the verbatim letters part.  State the criticisms by Margaret and perhaps a paragraph rebuttal and leave it at that.
However, I suspect the Shiners will continue to hack this page, much like the Scientology page gets hacked.  Shiners are not rational people, and no matter what evidence you offer, it makes no difference - David Helfgott is a God to them. You might as well try to convince teabaggers that President Obama wasn't born in Kenya.
The Shiners seemed obsessed with making David Helfgott into some sort of unsung genius, when in reality, he was just a child prodigy (which rarely turn into virtuosos later in life) who became a very disturbed young man who later played piano at a pub, until some publicist decided to dramatize his life story and try to make us all feel sorry for him.
I'd edit the page, but what's the point? Some Shiner will just re-edit it back.  Perhaps Helfgott himself is polishing his image here.  Perhaps, like the Scientology page, this page should be locked from edits, once some balance has been re-established.
Joe Patent (talk) 01:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is standard practice for abusers to deny performing the abuse.  Sure his mother may not have had much financial reason to deny claims of abuse but finances are not the only reason she would do so (don't know much about the $ involved, don't really care)... REPUTATION.  The evidence is pretty strong that schizophrenia is primarily caused by environmental factors and not genetic ones. 209.115.153.68 (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: More about the criticism section

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thread_title:  External links modified 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: The Criticism section says "As happens with biographical films, the movie has attracted reproach from critics who struggle with the difference between an exacting documentary as compared to a dramatized story of a historical person's life. The criticism about the differences between a word-for-word history of David Helfgott and a work of drama focus on two main grounds...". The wording of this intro seems heavily biased against critics. It's unreasonable to suggest that they "struggle with the difference" between genres, or that they expect a "word-for-word history." No such thing as a "word-for-word history" could exist. The criticisms are noteworthy and have some validity. If they're worth including, they're worth including in a balanced, neutral manner. Sadiemonster (talk) 16:39, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bias? 

message: Hello all,
I have summarised the extensive section on the family squabble over the historical accuracy of the film, retaining the essential points. I have cut most of the sub-section on the subject's playing ability because it is only one critic's opinion WP:UNDUE. Readers can click the link if they are interested in the details of the critic's complaint. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 06:31, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Historical accuracy