Talk:Coltrane changes

message: Please do not render section titles as paragraphs: they are very confusing. Please use title or subtitle markers, as with Giant Steps. 
Please could someone re-format the examples in the section "Giant Steps:" why is there title/explanative/caption text in a pre-formatted display container? It makes the intended focus of the box - the chords - very hard to read.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.113.215 (talk) 19:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Formatting 

message: (Side note argument)
*"Have You Ever Met Miss Jones" doesn't follow the root movement by 3rd pattern in the Coltrane matrix. Most charts available (for Miss Jones), regardless of the starting key, go from a (the note is interchangeable depending on key, and the songs starts on what's known in jazz as a "turnaround - 2-5-1 or a 6-2-5-1) (F)Maj7, (D)dom7b9, (G)m7, (C)dom7.
::The article refers specifically to the bridge. - mako 08:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comment by 69.254.88.237 

message: This paragraph is confusing and could be better:
- The changes serve as a pattern of chord substitutions for the ii-V-I progression (supertonic-dominant-tonic) and are noted for the tonally unusual root movement down by major thirds (as opposed to the usual minor or major seconds, thus the "giant steps").-
"Giant Steps" refers to the whole-tone bass movement, not the major third tonic relationship.  Also, in jazz fourth root movement is more usual than major or minor second. The term "root" can be ambiguous in this context, meaning either the bass note (which is not always the root of the chord) or the toninc of the "temporary key," etc.Jazzzguy (talk) 18:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro 

message: The image :Image:Giant Steps.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here.  In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page.  Please check
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --02:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Image copyright problem with Image:Giant Steps.ogg

message: The short story is this article is unencyclopedic, unverifiable, uncited, inexpert and unprofessional.  (Not to be harsh, or anything.)  Uncited and unprofessional are clear enough, and I assert unverifiable and inexpert because I am an expert and I know the difference in this jazz folklore between the facts we know and the assumptions we've made.  My primary objection is its total unencyclopedic nature...I can't really put into words how much of a non-topic this is, so I think I'll just list tell you why and assume you'll agree with me.
The concept of "Coltrane changes" is usually a reference to a few types of ii-V-I cycles specifically in John Coltrane's music or derivations thereof.  That's, first of all, not a "part of jazz harmony," but a subject of it; furthermore, it's not a technical term in any way, it's a colloquialism used to describe the hairy improvisation structures of tunes like Giant Steps, Moment's Notice, Countdown and so forth.  You'll also hear it just in reference to chord changes Coltrane wrote elsewhere, because his practice of writing changes like this bleed into his - yes - more serious work.  In what may be tangential, I'd like to mention that it's commonly believed Coltrane originally wrote the Giant Steps family of tunes to practice on.
However, none of these aspects to his work have a specific measurable commonality whose mention would not detract from understanding exactly the complexity that he toyed with in his chord changes.  Moreover, while all of these things are true and I would, and on a daily basis do, risk my career on them, at the end of the day I'm just a guy who knows that, and so are all the other people who do.  Well, a lot of them are girls, but my point still stands.  There is no standard intepretation of his chord changes, or even a definite agreement on what they are.
Let me put it this way: There are three possible interpretations I see for the phrase "Coltrane changes."  Either they're the cycles Coltrane is known for in work like the Giant Steps album, for which this term is unencyclopedic, or they're simply chord changes written by the man, in which case the topic is not encyclopedic - I'd compare it to a page on Richie Beirach's chord changes, or Thelonious Monk's, both of which I would call more worthy of a space in Wikipedia, but still definitely not fit - or, in the greatest stretch of all, you could call Coltrane's reharmonisations of others' tunes the "Coltrane changes" as in the "Coltrane version" or "Coltrane's alterations."  The point is, whichever one of these points the article shoots for, it completely misses.
My answer to this problem is to first of all clean up the article (to which, I don't know where to start) and call for verification, and, once the information here is distilled down to information that is suitable for this encyclopedia, merging it with John Coltrane.  Barring the production of material that would make a useful addition to that article, however, I move for deletion on any or all of the following criteria (from WP:DP):
* Content forks (unless a merge or redirect is appropriate)
* Articles which cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources, including neologisms, original theories and conclusions ...
* Articles for which all attempts to find reliable sources to verify them have failed
* Articles whose subject fails to meet the relevant notability guideline (WP:N, ...)
* Any other content not suitable for an encyclopedia (see WP:NOTTEXTBOOK and WP:INDISCRIMINATE)
With love, Dextrose (talk) 00:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: The article needs inline references as it was written before they began to be widely adopted.  The rest of your comments are absurd. Viriditas (talk) 07:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Merger or deletion 

message: "The ability to blow over the Giant Steps/Coltrane cycle remains one of the standards by which a jazz musician's improvising ability is measured."
Come on!  Precisely which Jazz University is it that measures and accredits this mythical benchmark of skill?  Has 'Jazzy Ability' it got its own unit? 
"The Monk Metre" perhaps. Or maybe its "Davis Atmospheres"? "Parkers per m2"?  Eungh.  --IRONY-POLICE (talk) 19:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fanciful Claims 

message: This article refers to the changes as "Substitutions." From my experience, a chord substitution must in the very least substitute one chord with another that has a similar function. The examples provided show chord insertions via Coltrane Changes, creating elaborations of the original progressions, but they are never substituting for any chords. Can someone clarify this? Jmckaskle (talk) 17:33, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Substitutions? 

message: Is it just me, or does this whole article seem full of original research? Luminifer (talk) 17:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: OR

message: I'd like to add the article Giant Steps, Central Park West, and Modulatory Cycles as an external link, and would welcome discussion on its appropriateness for this Wikipedia page. The article is an in-depth exploration of the Coltrane Changes itself: the Changes derive directly from the innovative (in jazz) harmonic techniques that Coltrane most powerfully realized in Giant Steps, and, later -- in an entirely different way -- in Central Park West, and the article, Giant Steps, Central Park West, and Modulatory Cycles, goes into unusually great depth and thoroughness on precisely this subject. 
(I'm new to Editing Talk, so my apologies, in advance for any errors in protocol or etiquette that I may have committed.)
Maberly (talk) 18:20, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Added to the external links section. Coltrane changes#External links. Hyacinth (talk) 09:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

text: The link seemed appropriate and not prohibited per Wikipedia:External links. Hyacinth (talk) 22:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Appropriate external link? 

message: An augmented triad will appear as an equilateral triangle on the chromatic scale (when arranged in a circle) and the circle of fifths. Any reason why it should be displayed on the circle of fifths? Hyacinth (talk) 09:49, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Image: Circle of fifths vs. chromatic

message: Presumably the article needed or needs additional citations for verification in regards to the concerns discussed above re: #Fanciful Claims and #OR. However, has the article improved enough since those discussions to remove the tag? If not, what still needs to be fixed? Hyacinth (talk) 09:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Tag removed. Hyacinth (talk) 10:01, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Additional citations (refimprove)

message: In this section of the article it lists Ab to B7 as being a minor third. This is impossible because A to B is a second. What they probably mean is it's enharmonic to a minor 3rd, same number of semitones. A minor third up from Ab is Cb, not B.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfabeet (talk • contribs) 16:03, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Coltrane substitution

message: All of the visuals in the Giant Steps section could use improvement. In the written-out chord sequence, the meaning of the highlighting is totally unclear; furthermore, the "SeeChord" chart has no meaning for anyone not familiar with the specific program. I think we can do better.
HamartiaProsciuttoPharos (talk) 21:21, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giant Steps graphs need improvement 

message: Two authors are mentioned in this article, Miles Davis and Eddie Vinson!
My understanding is that Vinson is the correct author, but it was attributed to Davis to get more attention, being a more prestigious musician.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saxmad99 (talk • contribs) 12:04, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Author of Tune Up?