Talk:Aberdyfi

message: I have considered starting another move discussion, on the long standing issue of whether to use "Aberdyfi" or "Aberdovey" to refer to the village in Gwynedd, Wales, in light of further research since Talk:Aberdyfi#Requested move 17 June 2019 as well discussions on similar issues (Talk:Bagenalstown#Requested move 16 August 2022, Talk:Snowdon#Requested move 18 November 2022 and Talk:Snowdonia#Requested move 18 November 2022) and data from the 2021 United Kingdom census, which is the nearest census to 2019 as well as the present day, on the Welsh language but I decided the an RfC would be more in line with my recommendation for a compromise as per WP:MLN. I have previously started a discussion on this on this talk page (see Talk:Aberdyfi#Compromise on usage of alternate spellings) but got no reply.Tk420 (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have only recently learned how to access Google Street Views from the past on Google Maps and I discovered that the same welcome signs, as the ones in the most recent views (taken in August 2022) and in my image (taken in February 2023) appear in the oldest available views which bear the date January 2009. This was within ten years of devolution but this does not give us an exact age for the signs.Tk420 (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  RfC on compromise over alternate spellings for the area 

message: My recommendation is to use the Welsh language spelling Aberdyfi to refer to the village and the community and the anglicised Aberdovey when referring to Aberdovey railway station and the lifeboat station as well as the area in the appropriate historical context. This has been the de-facto compromise since the separate Aberdyfi and Aberdovey articles were merged on 27 September 2004 and it seems to be generally satisfactory as it is seldom challenged. This practice is also used on Wikimedia Commons in which "Aberdovey" is described, in Category:Aberdyfi, as still common. In that same category are a number of images from Panoramio which use "Aberdovey" in the title and can still be seen on Google Maps and Google Earth. I also recommend avoiding the overuse of either spelling in the article. However, there is no apparent official rule to fall back on although the use of the anglicised spelling is occasionally challenged and continuing to enforce this de-facto rule without a written agreement in place could be seen as claiming ownership of the article when no one owns a Wikipedia article. If this compromise is agreed on, I would like to suggest adding an infobox to this talk page as well as in the edit source similar to the practise in the Derry article and its talk page e.g. My past comparison of this issue with the Derry/Londonderry name dispute has been criticised for being a "terrible analogy" but please note that we are supposed to maintain a neutral point of view (WP:NPOV especially WP:NPOVTITLE) without giving in to personal preference or politics. Unfortunately, other examples of places in the UK with multiple local names in English are not as well known (at least those disputes are not notable enough to have their own articles) and I would like to remind readers that there are differences between name disputes as well as similarities. To find an example other than Derry/Londonderry, there is Bagenalstown, County Carlow in the Republic of Ireland which is officially Muine Bheag but with its Wikipedia article having been moved on 26 August 2022 on the ground of "Bagenalstown" being the more common name among English-speakers in Ireland. However, unlike Bagenalstown both "Aberdyfi" and "Aberdovey" appear to be somewhat common in formal English even within Wales.
In case the need for a compromise is questioned, vs doing nothing or moving the article to Aberdovey, in trying to determine the more common name for the area in English as per WP:COMMONNAME I tried using Google Trends but the use of "Aberdovey" over "Aberdyfi" as a search term has been more common in all four constituent countries of the UK over the last five years as well as since 2004, suggesting the anglicised spelling is the more common exonym (name used by outsiders) although "Aberdyfi" appears to be more common in the mainstream media with some outlets (likely many after researching the following references) using the two spellings interchangeably including the BBC which is obligated to be impartial which suggests that English usage is indecisive. In trying to determine the more common endonym (name used by the inhabitants in their language) many local businesses use the Welsh spelling with English words in their name and/or address though there are some exceptions suggesting English usage is also indecisive there. According to WP:MLN, one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive. In trying to determine the linguistic majority in the community, the last two censuses turned out a result of less than 50% for those who claim to be able to speak Welsh although it is up to the individual to judge their ability in the language. e.g. DataMapWales claims that the prominence of Welsh-speakers in the area found by searching for "Aberdyfi" is 43.3% with an increase of 0.7% from last time. However, there appears to be three counting areas for the 2021 census in the community and the Welsh language version of this article claims that 30.3% of residents over the age of three could speak Welsh in the 2011 census but this is still a minority either way although the Welsh Government gives the percentage for the larger local area (immediately north of the Dyfi estuary) as being between 30% and 50% (see Map 3 in this source()). This suggests that the community is predominantly English-speaking and that the most common endonym and exonym for the area in English is different which complicates the issue. Also according to WP:MLN, "In some cases, a compromise is reached between editors to avoid giving the impression of support for a particular national point of view. For example, the reasonably common name Liancourt Rocks has been adopted, mainly because it is neither Korean nor Japanese. Similarly, Wikipedia's version of the Derry/Londonderry name dispute has been resolved by naming the city page Derry and the county page County Londonderry".
Across the four different levels of government involved in the community, there are variations to suggest even their usage is indecisive or they use different spellings interchangeably or under different circumstances suggesting the area qualifies as having multiple local names as per WP:MLN.
* The United Kingdom Government ("Westminster") appears to favour the anglicised Aberdovey considering its use by agencies that are or were nationalised by them e.g. Office of national statistics, Network Rail, Ordnance Survey (at least they use the bilingual Aberdyfi/Aberdovey when zoomed in and only the anglicisation when zoomed out on their map), Royal Mail (when I search for Aberdyfi Village Stores by its postcode (LL35 0EE) I get the anglicised spelling as its post town) and BT (at least Yell.com (website of the Yellow Pages which BT formerly owned) but it is used in the paper phone book for Aberystwyth anyway).
* The devolved Welsh Government uses the Welsh Aberdyfi almost exclusively although there are examples of the anglicised spelling used by agencies nationalised by them e.g. the  Visit Wales article for Aberdyfi Beach uses "Aberdyfi | Aberdovey Beach" in the first instance suggesting they accept that many tourists remain accustomed to the anglicised spelling. The anglicisation is also used by Transport for Wales, which the has been owned by the Welsh Government since 2021, to refer to the main station though they are probably following the long established practice also observed by Network Rail and National Rail.
* The local principal area authority the Gwynedd Council (they stylise themselves nowadays by their Welsh name of Cyngor Gwynedd) also uses the Welsh spelling almost exclusively.
* The Aberdyfi Community Council uses the anglicised spelling on its website almost exclusively, including the tourism pages in which the logo features a signboard reading "Aberdyfi (Aberdovey)" which suggests they also accept many tourists are still accustomed to it although they use the Welsh spelling in their name (obviously) and in their Rushlight monthly newsletter, sometimes interchangeably, which can be assumed to be aimed at the locals.
Tk420 (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I have only recently learned how to access Google Street Views from the past on Google Maps and I discovered that the same welcome signs, as the ones in the most recent views (taken in August 2022) and in my image (taken in February 2023) appear in the oldest available views which bear the date January 2009. This was within ten years of devolution but this does not give us an exact age for the signs.Tk420 (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title: Full summary