Talk:Plus and minus signs

message: According to the article, "[Concatenation] is more commonly written as "a"&"b"="ab", using the ampersand." Yet Concatenation and Comparison of programming languages (strings) both say + is more common. I'm removing the sentence. --192.235.8.2 20:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Concatenation 

message: * To join the fun with ¹ ² ³ ⁿ / ⅛ ¼ ⅜ ½ ⅝ ¾ ⅞ / ⅓ ⅔ ?
* Y/N?
* If yes, what are the code points?
* If no, someone should create them.
* Thanks, — M20-2.5 19:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes x207a⁺ x207b⁻ x208a₊ x208b₋ See Unicode subscripts and superscripts. Why anyone wants them I don't know when one can superscript or subscript anyway. Dmcq (talk) 12:16, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text:  Sure you can superscript or subscript... if you've got HTML. Bunches of situations don't allow it, and even when they do, typing 2 and 5 can be a real PITA. I have a lot of friends on Dreamwidth.org, and if you want any HTML code in a comment you have to type it yourself. I keep the sub- and superscript digits, and lots of other special characters, on a handy page on my desktop to copy-and-paste whenever I want. The Unicode page Superscripts and Subscripts, Range: 2070–209F has all these and more. --Thnidu (talk) 02:18, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
thread_title: Does Unicode have "superscript plus" and "superscript minus" like it has "superscript 1" and "superscript 2"?

message: A personal tripod page is not a very good source.  Maybe this book is better, even though it looks like it may have gotten the info from that same page.  What about other sources?  Anybody have?  Dicklyon (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Sources 

message: I think there are three use for minus rather than 2.
x−y meaning the result of y subtracted from x
−x meaning the result of negating the value of x, i.e. x subtracted from 0.
-123 the negative number 123. It has the same value as the negation operator applied to 123 but is a different concept. I'll stick this in if nobody has a better idea.
Also a computery side might be an idea too. APL has negative numbers e.g. −123 separate from negated integers and IEEE has -0. Dmcq (talk) 18:43, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If you have a source that discusses these distinctions, then definitely add such.  If not, don't. Dicklyon (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well the definitions in wikt:minus sign and wikt:plus sign clearly differentiate between the operation and as used as part of a number, also if you look at the article itself immediately after it says there are two uses it gives three different names for the three different uses I gave above though there is a citation mark on that sentence. Dmcq (talk) 22:42, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

text: There is a difference, it would be hard for APL to distinguish between them for instance if there wasn't one. The citation referenced on the first line of the section might explain it better for you. Sorry I thought I had explained it properly but obviously there's some problem. As it say in the second type it is part of the number, no operator is involved. It has the same sort of status as a positive number. The third type is an operator, if you write it as an function -(5) it might be more obvious. Dmcq (talk) 10:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, I see the citation (incidentally, I just changed the link to point straight to page 9), but I'm unconvinced I'm afraid. To pick up on your example, there is no circumstance in which -(5) does not mean exactly the same thing as -5, and for exactly the same reason. "-5" means "minus five" because the minus sign means "take the negative of". Undoubtedly we should give both -5 (say) and -x (say) as examples, but to claim that the minus sign has two different meanings in these two cases is, in my view, more confusing than helpful. 81.129.130.32 (talk) 13:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It may be more of a technicality in everyday life but mathematically they are quite different, one is the sign part of a number and the other is an arithmetic operator. In computing it does matter because for instance for integers normally there is no positive value corresponding to the maximum negative integer but a person may still want to write the maximum negative integer. Dmcq (talk) 15:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand the issue of a computer being able to hold, say, -32768 as an integer but not +32768, but I don't see how this supports the article's claim that the two uses of the minus sign (in e.g. -5 and -x) are "in mathematics... technically different". It's true that the minus sign in -5 is "the sign part of the number", but the purpose and meaning of that minus sign is mathematically indistinguishable from the purpose and meaning of the minus sign in, say, -x. It's reasonable that these are two different uses I suppose, but far from being "technically different", the two uses are, in my view, actually "technically identical" (in mathematics). Computer implementation issues can go in the "Uses in computing" section. 86.134.30.252 (talk) 21:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: In mathematics -5 is a mathematical object whereas -x is an expression (mathematics). When x is 5 the expression can be evaluated and the value is -5. Expressions are not normally objects except as objects of study in metamathematics. Dmcq (talk) 22:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that -5 is a number that can be considered as an "entity", but I don't agree that this means the "-" symbol itself has a different meaning compared to, say, -x. To me it's exactly the same meaning, and that's exactly the reason why -5 is written the way it is. -5 means "additive inverse of 5", or "negative of 5", or however you want to put it, and it so happens that the result is another number, a negative one. I think we're just looking at the same thing in two slightly different ways. 86.134.30.252 (talk) 00:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Try thinking how you would explain it to a computer. -5 would produce an entity as you put it whereas --5 would not, so there is some difference between the two minus signs. What's the difference? Dmcq (talk) 11:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no difference in the meaning of the three minus signs in your examples. I'm guessing that you may have in mind the difference between "compile-time" and "run-time" parsing of the minus sign. This is an implementation issue that is not relevant to the actual meaning of the sign. (If this isn't what you're getting at then I'm afraid I don't understand your point.) 81.151.230.218 (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

text: If −5 is a single object, why do we evaluate −5^2 as −25, instead of +25? −5 does *denote* a single number, but that doesn't mean the sign should also be part of the numeral; when we write out the expression −5, we're getting that single number by taking the negative of 5, just as by taking the negative of x. Otherwise, we would be evaluating −5^2 as (−5)^2, or +25. Musiphil (talk) 23:07, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

text: After more edits than I can feel proud of I've stuck in a bit of text with this example. Dmcq (talk) 06:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I've removed the "technically" bit that the IP editor seems to object to, and I've replaced it with more details on speech. Ironically this gets the spirit of the section closer to the way it was when Rick introduced the word in 2007. That material was challenged here and largely removed here. Melchoir (talk) 09:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

text: The difference is that for instance −5 inches simply is minus five inches or negative five inches as some teachers insist on calling it. Whereas −x inches means get x and then find its opposite  and that gives the number of inches. −5 is a number, not an operation applied to a number. To give the equivalence one would have to write something like −(5)=−5 which in teacherspeak says that the opposite of the number 5 is the number negative 5.  Dmcq (talk) 15:25, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks Dmcq. I'm aware of that argument, but it doesn't work for me. To me, −5 is a number which is arrived at by the operation of taking the negative of 5. The "−" element of the notation indicates the taking of the negative, just as it does in −x. To me, there is no fundamental difference in the two uses. 86.136.194.122 (talk) 20:17, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Three uses for minus + computerese 

message: I have made an edit regarding the unary minus and PEMDAS.  The unary minus is not part of PEDMDAS, however everyone seems to just
go with the flow her and give it the same place as the subtraction operation. 
Some said: "However in some programming languages and Excel in particular, unary operators bind strongest"
Can this be proven? Are there specs for this?  I don't work for Excel and there is a good reason for that, but it would be nice to back this up.~~  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.65.71.211 (talk) 19:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Reference for excel precedence added. Dmcq (talk) 23:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Precedence

message: Another alternate name is "take away".  For example: 3 - 2, Can also be read as "three take away two." CaribDigita (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: If this is of interest, it belongs in the article on subtraction, not here. Rick Norwood (talk) 19:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Minus a.k.a. "Take away" 

message: Ed Sheerans new album is called +, it has a wikipedia entry. Should be connected?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.38.11 (talk) 17:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: No, if you look just under the title of the article you'll see disambiguation links for plus and minus. Dmcq (talk) 18:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ed Sheeran 

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thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I don't know APL, but the article seems inconsistent in describing its code for negative numbers. According to the "Minus sign" section, negative-number literals in this language use a bold superscript em dash, so the additive inverse of 5 is denoted —5.  According to the section "Uses in computing", however, a macron is used, so this number is denoted ¯5.  Are these two different flavors of APL, or is there a version that uses these symbols interchangeably? Peter Brown (talk) 22:12, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, if the coding of the raised minus sign is your problem this has been helped. --Nomen4Omen (talk) 10:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, Peter Brown (talk) 14:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  How does APL represent negative numbers? The article seems inconsistent 

message: Somebody who knows more about these things than I do might care to add a section about circled plus and minus? 
* 
* 
* 
* 
* 
Any volunteers?--John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:58, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Circled plus 

message: To your revert:It is simply not true that the  „notation may be used when it is desired to emphasize the positiveness of a number“. If  is a variable, then  emphasizes absolutely nothing (as stated already in the foregoing sentence). –Nomen4Omen (talk) 18:35, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you think is the difference between the noun phrases "number" and "numeric constant"?  (Is the latter even proper mathematical English?  I am skeptical.)  I posit the word "number" is sufficiently flexible to serve this meaning in this setting without confusion, whereas your alternative is jargony and offers no advantage to any conceivable reader. --JBL (talk) 19:09, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

text: I agree with Jay. If someone needs to be told what "+3" means, they are likely to have trouble with "numeric constant".  Zerotalk 23:15, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  {{math|+''x''}} 

message: Hello all,
I was at first quite confident, but now I am not so sure, and I'd like some community feedback. On many articles, there are geographic coordinates for regions that use a "minus" sign in the form of a hyphen-minus like this, "-". I would like to know if it is acceptable, and part of the MOS to replace those with an en dash (as I have been doing for some time now), such as this "–". 
An example where this dispute was first raised is here. "Temple Terrace is located in north-central Hillsborough County at 28°2′30″N 82°22′57″W (28.041546, –82.382519)" Is it correctly listed as I have there, or should it be, "Temple Terrace is located in north-central Hillsborough County at 28°2′30″N 82°22′57″W (28.041546, -82.382519)"? Your guidance/wisdom is much appreciated. ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 20:38, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  En dashes where there are hyphens for "minus signs"