Talk:Toyota Prius/Archive 1

message: Ford Motor Company is planning a hybrid engine version of the Ford Escape. Ford signed a licensed agreement in March 2004 to use 20 hybrid technology patents from Toyota.
I think this may be misleading: the Escape (and future Ford hybrids) are not based in any way on the Prius, and do not borrow any components. Ford did indeed liscense some Toyota petents, but only after designing it's own proprietary system (there were near-production Escape hybrids in final testing LONG before March 2004!).
Hybrid systems are so fundamentally similar and there's so much convergent design they calculated it would be cheaper to pay Toyota a small royalty than risk being sued (and suffering the resulting PR damange, regardless of whether the lawsuit had merrit or not). This is the line from both Ford and Toyota. -- stewacide 18:45, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ford Escape Hybrid 

message: My grade school teacher taught me to write short and clean sentences.  The sentence below is a mile long.  I'd suggest someone rewrite it into smaller chunks.
:With a new drag coefficient of 0.26 and featuring the third generation hybrid powertrain technology called Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD) replacing the old Toyota Hybrid System (THS) technology, the new 2004 Prius is a compact car with more room than the previous subcompact (4 doors plus a rear hatch, a smaller but higher voltage NiMH battery), is more powerful (2 seconds faster in 0 to 96 km/h acceleration) and is 15% more fuel efficient than the previous generation Prius (59 mpg city, 51 mpg highway, according to the EPA) when driven properly[1] (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-03-hybridmileage_x.htm), yet is still 90% cleaner than conventional gasoline-only automobiles. 
Kowloonese 18:23, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Agreed - check it out now. Lots more material also and some sneaky POV others may want to edit out. Leonard G. 04:45, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  writing style? 

message: The sentence above said the 2004 Prius is a compact car with more room.  That is an error.  The Prius is classified by the EPA as a mid-size car according to its interior room despite the exterior of the car is about the same as a compact Corolla.  Some other government agencies classify the 2004 Prius as a compact car by weight.  Since the above sentence is talking about interior room in the same breath, it should mention its size-class instead of its weight-class.  I made the change on Jun 15, 2004.
Kowloonese 18:23, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  size class vs weight class 

message: :Due to the success of both the engineering and sales of the Prius, Toyota is currently planning a hybrid V-6 engine for the Lexus GX, as well as a hybrid engine version of the Camry. Toyota plans to sell the Lexus in late 2004, promising equal performance of the 4.7 L V-8 currently shipping in the GX470, with the fuel economy of the Camry's 2.2 L 4-cylinder engine. 
There is no base for this sentence.  It is simply wrong.  Based on all the news releases, Toyota will produce a Lexus RX400h and a hybrid Toyota Highlander for the 2005 model year later this fall.  Rumor has it that their Sienna minivan will be next in line but not in 2005.  There is no word about the GX or Camry going hybrid soon even though Toyota announced that their entire product line will go hybrid eventually few years from now.  Since the Camry and the Prius are in the same price range.  It would only make sense for Toyota to do other hybrids before cannibalizing their own sedan class.  What about a hybrid fullsize truck and a hybrid super sportcar before doing a hybrid Camry?
I made the change on Jun 15, 2004.  Kowloonese 23:25, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
thread_title:  other Toyota hybrids 

message: The recent addition of km/h after the mpg info is problematic.  km/h and mpg are two different kinds of unit, they are not compatible.  I changed it to km/g to make them both fuel consumption unit.  Yet it is no good either, km is metric and gallon is not.  On the Toyota Prius, the fuel consumption is either presented as mpg (mile per gallon) or as liter per kilometer.  The current value & unit need to be corrected.
Kilometers per litre is not the correct way of expressing fuel economy. The standard measurement for expressing fuel economy in metric terms is L/100km, I have made appropriate changes. 70.51.148.114 15:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Km/h -> km/g 

message: :The Japanese and European version of this vehicle assume an intelligent driver and provide a button that maintains stealth mode under most low load conditions. The US model does not provide this button and so there may be a subtle inference here. 
This two statements may violate NPOV policy.  The EV button will push the battery through deep discharge cycles that will significantly shorten the battery life.  Since the battery carries a warranty of 150K mile (10 years) in California and several other states or 100K mile (8 years) in the rest of the continent.  It is not hard to assume that the removal of the EV button in the US model is to protect the company's risk in supporting the batteries for long warranty period.  I really doubt the decision infers the intelligent level of the drivers.  Kowloonese 23:32, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure does! I was wondering if anyone was reading the article. That did stay in for quite a while. All fixed up now, plus a neat driving trick to get ICE shutdown. (Is this in the manual?) There are (likely warranty violating) wiring additions to enable stealth mode, some of which are well hidden - replacing a rarely used function in the cruise control, others are more bold, simply putting a button where it is found on the non-US models. Leonard G. 05:34, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

text: I heard that they did not include this button due to government red tape about having an EV button makes the car "electric only" and would have to be registered as such.  Also, it does not affect the battery because the computer will automatically cancel EV mode if the battery gets too low or you go too fast.  I read a British review of the Prius (I forget where) and the reviewer said he could not even get around the block when he had the car in EV mode, because the computer automatically turns EV mode off.  The button is only good if you have to move a short distance in a parking lot of move your car into/out of your driveway.  --michael180 14:26, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

text: The EV button has no "real" practical use unless the battery reserve is big enough for the Prius to operate as a true Electric car.  According to the project of the Prius+ prototype, you will need to shell out US$10000 to beef up the Prius as a grid pluggable electric car.  Kowloonese 00:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Sure it has real practical uses, such as moving the car arround a parking lot, or demonstrating the ev-mode to friends.  If you live at the top of a hill you could use it to discharge the battery on the way home to make room for more regen charge on the way back down the hill.  As far as the EDrive conversion pack price of ~$10K-14K, most of which does towards the most expensive Li-ion batteries money can buy, it could be done for about $3K or less with traditional PbA batteries, or Toyota could produce the car with larger batteries and plug-in abilities for an additional $3K from the factory.  I concure that it was most likely left off of US models because of the extra trouble it would have taken to get it emissions tested, why they couldn't have simply ignored the button I don't know. --D0li0 10:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: All the button does in Europe is shut the motor off temp if you just want to go a few hundred feet.  The American Priuses have build in support for the button.  All you need to do is buy any button and hook it up in to the place for it.  You can also by the button from Europe dealers and install it your self.  --michael180 16:54, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Umm, ok, did my statements imply something to the contrary?  I guess they did sorta take a tangent towards Plug-in_hybrid_electric_vehicles (Gridables, (Prius+, CalCars, CalCars-news, EDriveSystems), (Toyota PHEV Prius, , )).  But I did come back arround with my understanding of the lack of the button (just the button) in the US, since none of the Hybrids have plug-ins yet, sorry for the confusion. --D0li0 07:08, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  EV button 

message: I've deleted this phrase in relation to the question of being able to recharge the battery from the mains.  While some sources of mains electricity are cleaner, I don't think there's any evidence that, from source to use, typical mains electricity would be better.  There are losses in generation, transmission and charging and discharging the battery. --Cavrdg 08:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Poor efficiency and CO2 emissions of an ICE engine 

message: I have cleaned up the list of external links, removing some extraneous links (some not specifically about the Prius or all that informative).  The other sites and news articles could be cleaned up further to narrow the external links list to only those most informative and pertinent sites. --Aude 01:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links 

message: What is the relevance, if any, of the driving tips near the end of the article? That, to me, is owners club or forum material and not encyclopedic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.250.152.182 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Driving tips 

message: Moved this content from the article...
 As of autumn 2005, the Antonov Automotive Technology BV Plc company has sued Toyota Corp. over alleged patent infringement relating to key components in the Prius' drivetrain and the hybrid luxury SUV Lexus RX400h. The case has been pending in secret since April 2005, but settlement negotiations did not bring a mutually acceptable result. Antonov eventually took legal recourse in the german court system, where decisions are usually made relatively swift. The patent holder seeks to impose a levy on each Prius vehicle sold, which could make the hybrid car economically incompetitive. Toyota fought back by seeking to officially invalidate Antonov's relevant patents. The court motion in Winword document format can be read here. 
Would this happen to be the same Suit?  Sorry, I don't read .doc files.  If it is, it was Discussed here and dismissed for the most part.  Seems like nonsense to me, more like Hybrid Hatemongering similar to Fords comments about "Toyota hogging all the Hybrid Parts". --D0li0 11:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Patent infringement issues 

message: A claim was filed on January 11,2006, by "Solomon Industries, Inc." with the United States International Trade Comission alleging that Toyota infringed on SI's patent in the Prius and the Toyota Highlander. While this commision cannot actually assess and award damages, it can block the import of any product that it determines violates a U.S. patent. SI previously filed a lawsuit against Toyota on September 12, 2005 claiming patent infringement. 
And, no I don't work for or have any associations with SI, and yes, I do own a Prius. --NightMonkey 09:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Patent infringement alleged by Solomon Industries

message: An infringement action has been filed against Toyota by Antonov Automotive Technology BV (a wholly owned subsidiary of Antonov plc), the automotive technology company, at the Patent Court in Düsseldorf alleging infringement of its patents by the driveline of the Toyota Prius and Lexus RX400h.  The case will receive its first hearing on the 22nd September 2005.  The action was originally filed on the 12th April 2005, but the first hearing date was postponed to allow more time for negotiations to seek a satisfactory settlement.  As the offer received is not satisfactory, no settlement has been reached and Antonov will proceed with the case.  Through the case Antonov aims to establish the infringement and seek fair payment for the use of Antonov’s intellectual property in all relevant vehicles sold to date and for those that will be sold through to the expiry of the patents.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.251.7.131 (talk • contribs) 03:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: More on Antonov hybrid technology patent infringement

message: New features
pictures of 2006 Prius
There are many changes in the 2006 model.  New features include:
* The smart airbags that deploy at variable speed depending on the force of impact.
* Leather seat option now available.
* A video camera overlooking the rear bumper
* tire pressure monitoring
* MP3 compatible audio system, input jack for portable music players
* etc.
The exterior is also slightly modified to give teletale signs of the new model.  
Visible clues of the 2006 model includes:
* the grill bar just below the hood is chrome (used to be body color)
* the amber color section of the headlight is from top to bottom (used to be upper half only)
* the upper section of the brake lights appears chrome when not lit. (used to be black)
* Between the front wheels and the doors, a new "Hybrid SD" Logo is added on each side.  The logo is a variation of the "HSD" logo on the back except the word Hybrid is spelled out.
* The alloy wheels look different too (to be confirmed because wheels were different in different markets for 2004/5 also.)
Kowloonese 19:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text:  I believe those wheels are the same, and are simply missing the "Hub Caps" we have on the 2004 and 2005 models.  The "Hub Caps" are meerly a small 2 inch plastic ring which causes the deep notch between the spokes and hub to appear more flush than in those photos.  A benefit of the hub cap is the ability to use them to greatly modify the look of the wheels like this http://vassfamily.net/ToyotaPrius/rimscaps/RimsCaps.html .  --D0li0 11:08, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  2006 model 

message: The subsection on "Other hybrid-engine vehicles" is off-topic, and covered elsewhere in the Hybrid vehicle article.  If no objections or consensus agrees with me, it will be deleted. --Aude 02:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree and have merged usefull information from that section into Hybrid vehicle#History.  The first three points regarding Honda, ie:also cannot be driven without the gasoline engine are entirely worthless and seem to have come from someone with a grudge against the IMA Assist Hybrids.  I'de just like to take this oppertunity to point out to people with this mentality that they should realize that while the Prius may have an EV-only Stealth Mode it is not IMHO an more (nor less) of a single fuel hybrid than any of the others.  Both of these designes utilize regenerative braking, assist, and idle-stop.  Without the ability to grid-recharge any EV-only abilities are nearly worthless.  So, Untill that day let's not get our panties in a bunch over which non-mild hybrid is better.  I'll gladly trade in both my 2000 Insight and 2005 Prius for which ever vehicle becomes the first Stock Plug-in hybrid electric vehicle! -Kmf164, I'll let you have the Deletion honors, and allow some more time for others to comment. --D0li0 10:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Other hybrid-engine vehicles 

message: Actually, I think this article does need cleanup.  I propose taking out the "driving tricks" and move to a separate sub-article.  In my opinion, this section takes away from the encyclopedic quality of the article.  Also, let's take out of "Notable facts", the list of celebrities that drive a Prius.  If no one objects, I'm going to comeback in a couple days and make these changes. --Aude 17:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I just moved the "driving tricks" to Wikibooks.  There is also a FAQ on Wikibooks that's been started.  I think wikibooks is a good place to provide more expansive information about the Prius for current and prospective owners.  I'll keep working on cleaning up the notable facts, celebrities, and sales info, moving what's necessary to wikibooks.  -Aude (talk | contribs) 02:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Remove driving tricks and list of celebrities 

message: I also propose taking out the "Sales" section.  The point that there was strong demand, long waiting lists, etc., can be made elsewhere in the article.  But these particular bullet points don't seem that useful and outdated.  There is little or no waiting time now, for ordering a Prius. --Aude 17:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: Actual sales data, as opposed to anecdotes of waiting times, can be useful. I have added some sourced figures regarding U.S. sales.  Incidentally, with gas prices pushing $3.00/gal again in the U.S., the waiting lines are back.  --Blainster 09:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Proposed removal of sales section 

message: I have long thought it odd that such an unasuming little car should be surrounded by such a vast body of fantastic rumors.  I listed them in their own section and Kmf164 promptly pulled them.  Is it innapropriate to round them up and thrust them into the harsh light of the Wiki?
I was going to defend it as being at least as useful as knowing that a minor actress on a minor show drives one for part of one episode, but I agree with Kmf164 that the celebrities should go.
:Okay, here's what was deleted and why:
:* For some reason this quiet, efficient, unassuming little car has been the subject of a continuous stream of bizarre rumors. These include:
:: "For some reason", what reason? And, instead of "this quiet, efficient, unassuming little car", how about simply "the Prius", and "bizarre rumors" - I'm not sure what you mean by bizarre and continuous.  I don't like putting such putting forth such adjectives for the reader, but rather just present the facts (backup up with citations, sources).
:* Toyota made and sold these strictly as a publicity move, not as an economically viable car, taking a loss on each sale in exchange for benefit to Toyota's image as a "green" company
::We need some sources here.  I have trouble with the word "strictly".  Instead of listing this as a rumor, how about incorporating into the article, something about how the hybrid technology as part of Toyota's R&D and strategy.
:* The cars are somehow unsafe to drive because they have dangerously strong electrical fields in them.
::Where has this been a rumor? sources please.  Instead, how about saying something in the article about the level of electrical charge, how it's channeled, in the car, and what steps Toyota has taken to ensure safety for occupants.
:* The cars are somehow unsafe for emergency personnel after accidents due to their unusually large battery.
::I've not heard this exactly as you word it "unusually large battery".  Sources please.  Though, the flow of electricity would be cut off anyway in an accident, but emergency personnel undergo special training for hybrids anyway to understand where the electrical (orange) wiring is, so they can avoid cutting it.
:* The car will electrocute its occupants if it goes into deep water.
::I've not heard this said anywhere.  I don't think this is part of a "continuous stream of bizarre rumors".  Though, if you can provide sources ...
:* Buyers pay so much extra when they buy the car (as compared with a similar non-hybrid vehicle) that over the life of the car they will never save enough on gas to make up for the extra money they must pay up front.
::I wouldn't necessarily call this a rumor, but it's a concern that some people have (in some cases, rightfully so).  The mileage that a Prius gets is not near the 60 mpg (city) EPA estimate that's advertised.   The mileage that a driver gets is highly dependent on driving conditions (traffic, length of commute, and many other factors).  And how long people will keep the car also varies.  Also, what about the price of gas, which varies greatly from place to place and over time?  There are so many variables, that in *some* cases one might not save enough on gas to make up for the extra upfront cost with buying the car.  I think we definitely need sources here.
:* Electric cars are naturally slow and weak, and American drivers will find them frustrating to drive.
::The Prius isn't an "electric" car.  It's a hybrid.  And singling out "American" drivers?  Wikipedia also has a large non-American audience.
:* The vehicle will actually create extra pollution because it has an oversize battery that will contaminate the enviroment after the car dies.
::I've never heard this "rumor". Sources please.
:* People who own Priuses are somehow less friendly or cooperative than drivers of other cars. (Perhaps a side effect of the dangerous magnetic fields in the car)
::This sounds silly.  I've never heard this and don't think this belongs in an encyclopedia.
:* Toyota has been hoarding vital hybrid parts and technologies in the hope of hurting american manufacturers.
:: I've never heard this either.  Where did you hear this rumor?
:It takes only the most trivial research to disprove these rumours, and yet they keep coming. To some extent it may be that the car has become as much a symbol as it is an actual car.
::How about doing some trivial research, provide just the facts, and back them up with sources?  One of the key policies of Wikipedia is Verifiability.  Providing sources and backing up facts, and not including heresay, would greatly improve the quality of this article.  So, if we're going to add the "rumors", I think we need sources to back up these being rumors and some sources that dispel the rumors. Please also acquaint yourself with the Manual_of_Style and The Five Pillars of Wikipedia.  With a better understanding of the policies and guidelines, you'll be better able to help improve the article.  Right now it has too many lists and not enough facts, sources, etc. to make it a really great article. --Aude 03:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
thread_title:  Rumors? 

message: I removed the folliwing trivia:
*Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, drives a Prius.
*Bill Maher, host of the HBO series Real Time with Bill Maher, drove a Prius for 3 years before trading it in for the Lexus RX 400h hybrid.
*Not only did actor Leonardo Dicaprio buy himself a Prius, he bought several for others in his family.
*Actresses Kirsten Dunst and Cameron Diaz both drive Priuses.
The reason is because I don't think it's noteable or significant enough anymore to note who drives Priuses. You're welcome to move the trivia to the page for that respective person. I've left in Priuses that appear in TV shows because these are more noteable. People watching the show will actually see the car for example. Having said that, given the increasing popularity of the Prius, we need to be careful not to add every single occurance of the Prius in a TV show or movie. Nil Einne 08:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I've moved all the trivia to the respective celebirties page except for Sergey because it already mentions he drives a Prius Nil Einne 01:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Trivia removed 

message: The list of enthusiast sites looks long.  What do you recommend we do about it?
Options:
# Delete the entire section.  Let people use Google to find enthusiasts sites.
# Keep the top 3 or so.  How are they ranked?
# Leave it as is.
Daniel.Cardenas 19:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Enthusiast sites 

message: "When compared to plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, the fuel and emissions saving of the Prius is modest." How can we make a comparison with something that's not even sold as a production car? --cassini83 02:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  plug-in 

message: From the article:
Wikipedia says the Toyota Prius looks like and performs like a normal car but delivers 50% better fuel economy. That’s not true. A Prius doesn’t look or perform like a normal car and it will do only 45mpg — far, far less than you’d get from a Golf diesel, say.
Richard Taylor 02:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, but a Golf (or any other) deisel couldn't be considered a normal car, could it? Stev0 07:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Used as Source by Jeremy Clarkson 

message: I'd just like to mention that at present, the right-hand drive models in Australia have the "Smart Key System", and it functions identically to the left-drive models described in the article.
:Anybody mind if I shorten this down a bit?  The page is pretty long and we don't need to know all the options for the SKS, just that it exists and basically what it does (also, consumers are becoming more familiar with this concept as it is now also showing up in other cars).  If they want to know more, they can go to PriusChat or read their manual. Nerfer 20:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Smart Key System 

message: Hi, I know little about the cars, but I wanted to point out how Priuses react quite differently to a common and easy-to-diagnose condition in non-hybrid cars.  Perhaps a mention of this could be added for other Prius drivers' benefit, and maybe start a section with other sorts of "when things go wrong" differences.  My 2005 Prius had a battery that was going bad, not the hybrid battery but the other one.  In a non-hybrid, this would be apparent as hesitation and slowness during cranking, especially when the car has sat for a while, and you would take it in for either battery or alternator replacement.  In the Prius, the car had trouble 'booting'.  Sometimes, it would have no response to the Power button, sometimes it would have a partial response but would not show the boxed READY on the dash, but generally, it would end up booting after a few attempts.  This went on for a few weeks, and it was unclear what the problem was; the dealer didn't even figure it out when really they should have.  Finally, one morning I tried to start the car, I couldn't, and it wouldn't return my key.  I had the car towed and a mechanic at the same dealer figured out that the battery went bad.  A common condition, easily diagnosed in a regular car, but in the Prius, it gave otherwise atypical symptoms.
: useful information, but if we started adding this type of thing to an already-long page, it would quickly get completely unwieldy.  Go to PriusChat.com or another website to share that information. Nerfer 06:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Addition of discussion of low-battery symptoms? 

message: (Proposed section)
I've heard that Toyota loses money on each Prius. If true, this would be a significant fact.
I will attempt to research this. If anyone has any input, let 'er rip.
LorenzoB 06:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't buy that. It does not make business sense unless Toyota gets something out of it.  For example, I heard that Microsoft sells the XBox 360 at a loss because they want to build up momentum and put a set-top presence in people's living room.  Besides, computer hardware parts cost drops rapidly in volume production. So the XBox will cost less to build over time and the initial loss would be temporary.  For the Prius, some argue that the battery cost may drop in mass production.  But rechargable batteries have been in high volume use for so many years in laptop and cellphone industry, the cost history does not show such a trend. Taking a loss on every car will eventually show up on their balance sheets. Like Chevolet, they produce some fake hybrid vehicles just as checklist items so that they can claim they also have hybrid. They don't need to promote those vehicle.  If Toyota were really taking a loss, they would not promote the Prius so much to reduce the loss.  Kowloonese 23:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yeah, good luck with that research.  They may have lost money on the initial NHW10 version, but it wouldn't make business sense at this point, particularly since they're trying to ramp up production to 170K units this year.  They also resisted raising prices during the years the Prius was continuously back-ordered.  Altho to be honest, Toyota did not promote the Prius until this last month - at least no TV or radio ads that I saw/heard. Honda pulled the Insight, probably due to profitability.  Nissan (using technology licensed from Toyota) claims it will lose money on the Altima Hybrid it is being "forced" to sell in California. Nerfer 05:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: According to CNW Marketing, about as anti-hybrid as a research place gets, hybrids produced a profit of $1375/vehicle in 2004 for the manufacturer, rising to almost $2000/vehicle in 2006.  (p. 38 of the 2MB Dust Zip download, http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/) Nerfer 03:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

text: The inital version for the US (NHW11) was at a loss (I'm told they cost ~ $50K each to produce and transport) but the NHW20 is profitable because it's per unit producation costs were greatly reduced. The next version is supposed to have an even lower per unit producation cost. Jon 16:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

text: There was a link in the history section to an article at Mercury News saying it was unprofitable.  I left this sentence in, although I modified it since it implied the Prius is still unprofitable, and I took out the link since it is now broken (article probably archived). Nerfer (talk) 03:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Profitability 

message: This is really a hodge-podge of things, I think this needs a complete rework.  Anyone volunteer?  Or complain if I did it next weekend or so? Nerfer 05:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notable facts 

message: The section "Better batteries/plug-ins" starts by comparing the price of battery pack options to the price of home-theater systems:
"These battery pack options are expensive at this time, comparable to a decent home-theater system."
I have no idea of the price of what the author considers to be a decent home-theater system, and it has nothing to do with cars. 
I call for a better comparison, ideally a price range!
Erland Lewin 11:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparing price to "a decent home-theater system"? 

message: Here's what it looks like on my computer:  Does anyone know why this is? No other wikipedia page looks like this. Esn 05:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: No clue, page looks normal in IE6&7, maybe you could ask at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical).--Van helsing 08:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Esn, that's how it looks for me too. I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.3. MahangaTalk 22:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm, it looks fine now.  Somebody must've changed something. Esn 08:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Page layout is screwed up 

message: Toyota has already hinted that they are willing to release diesel Prius hybrids. How hard is it to convert the existing ones to diesel? This would multiply the fuel efficiency increase of the plug-in modification. --76.217.90.99 07:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It's my understanding that the higher mileage of a diesel is due in part because of the higher energy density of that fuel compared to gasoline.  The first priority would be to have Plug-in hybrid versions of the Prius from Toyota, next I would like to see E85 Flex Fuel capabilities, and then perhaps diesel versions.  Once we have fuel options that don't require Internal combustion then we can discuss the best method of combustion to use when we need to resort to burning fuel...  --D0li0 11:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

text: From a technological standpoint, to switch any existing car from gasoline to diesel, you need to rip out the engine entirely and replace it with one designed to use diesel. There may be other parts that need totally replaced as well, but the engine is the most expensive one. Also at least in the US there are also a couple of major drawback to diesel vechicles compared to normal gasoline, starting with fuel avaiablity. It's not nearly as bad as trying to find an E-85 station though. The other issue is while during most of the year it is cheaper to run diesel than gasoline, during the fall the realtive prices reverse as gasoline prices drop as the summer travel ends and diesel prices soar as lots of harvest related farm vechicles get used. Jon 19:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Plugin + diesel Prius? 

message: Fyi: Article says Toyota is delaying Li-on version because of safety concerns.  Daniel.Cardenas 15:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Also I archived discussions prior to 2007, per wikipedia procedure wp:archive.  There is a link at the top of the discussion page: /Archive 1 Daniel.Cardenas 15:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

text: There is a tidbit of new information relating to Li-ion batteries for the Prius, might merit an update of the "Future of the Prius" section: RoyalDoyle (talk) 01:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Rumor Mill 

message: "Copy phone numbers to the Prius' (small) internal phone book (some allow them to be sent all at once)."
I just bought a 2007 (option package #4 with JBL system if that makes any difference).  I can copy up to 1000 entries from my phone (each entry containing up to 2 numbers).  Did previous models have a much smaller capacity?  Either way, I think we should replace "small" with "up to 1000 entries", or "up to 1000 entries on the 2007 model, XXX on 2004 - 2006" if it was indeed lower before.
--Fo0bar 10:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Small"? 

message: I was at the dealer for my 30K milage maintenance yesterday and they said they had a 2004-2006 recall notice out for something involving steering. (I hadn't noticed any problems) Jon 17:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Already in the article (second paragraph of recall section). --KJBracey 10:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Additional recall 

message: I think the intro paragraph should give the most interesting information about the Prius and not mundane information such as: "The 2000 model Prius slotted between the Echo and Corolla in the company's North American lineup...".  Most interested info is that it is greenest high production car available.  Highest mileage and very low smog causing pollution.   What do you think? Daniel.Cardenas 22:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Intro Paragraph 

message: this article from the Better World Club further refutes the CNW study. I don't know if you want to work that into the article, or stay with the one cite for the refutation. Improbcat 18:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Thanks, looks like additional info, I'll add it. --JWB 20:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Further CNW study refutation 

message: Upon its review on September 5, 2007, this good article candidate was quick-failed because it:
::contains cleanup banners including, but not limited to, , , , , etc, or large numbers of , , , or similar tags
thus making it ineligible for good article consideration.
This article did not receive a thorough review, and may not meet other parts of the good article criteria.   I encourage you to remedy this problem (and any others) and resubmit it for consideration.  If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review.  Thank you for your work so far.— Pursey 17:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Failed "good article" nomination 

message: Bobo159 removed part of a sentence citing an April 2006 article that said "...amidst flagging U.S. Prius sales reported by CMWMR despite higher gas prices...," with the comment that it was contradicted by monthly sales figures, and that the article was paywalled. According to the Wikipedia article's (unreferenced) monthly sales figures, early 2006 sales were off from 2005, and April 2006 well off from April 2005. I replaced the "flagging sales" part with direct quotes to avoid characterizing the sales reduction. The link is paywalled, but it's not clear to me that's disallowed in WP references. I read it via highbeam.com, the source returned by philly.com, which is owned by the originating newspaper (the Philadelphia Inquirer). (I changed the reference from a link to saying it was retrieved via a paywalled archive search on philly.com). I accessed the article online, and according to WP:CS, said where I got the information. I think the intermediary source and the originating source are both considered reliable. Here is the Philly article's text in question:
:"Still, Americans will sacrifice only so much, even during a gas crunch. For example, hybrid-vehicle sales actually have decreased since November, when fuel prices began to rise, Spinella said. Sales of Toyota's hybrid Prius have dropped 23 percent over the last year, he said. For most people, hybrids are a fashion statement, not indicative of any real concern, Spinella said."
-Agyle 07:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I removed a good portion of this.  Flagging sales was really misleading, since the long-term trend is clearly up.  There were some downturns, one in early 2006 due to the Prius line being used to ramp up early production of the new Camry Hybrid, and again in Oct 2006 when the tax incentive dropped by half.  I think Spinella timed his news release to his advantage.  Also end of 2007 might have been affected by earthquake damage at a key hybrid component factory in Japan.  Still, the long-term averages have gone up (don't have the link real handy, unfortunately) year-over-year, and 2007 was the best year yet with an increase of 70% (Prius now outsells all Subarus in the U.S., for instance). Nerfer (talk) 07:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Flagging sales," paywalled source 

message: Why is the section on "Dual-Drive Mode" [I thought it was called Synergy] a poorly written explanation of an electric motor? 136.176.8.22 16:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I thought the first part of text was good for the electric motor article.  Daniel.Cardenas 17:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dual-Drive Mode - What the crap is this?? 

message: My 1996 Nissan 1.6L 200SX with close to 400,000 miles gets 41MPG mixed city and highway. A car that is designed to be fuel efficient should have well over 70MPG and definitely do better than an 11 year old car. Comments within this page referencing the Prius as exceptionally high gas mileage should be removed as being opinion and/or advertisement.128.12.168.7 (talk) 17:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: I understand your frustration.  I had a 1987 Sentra (base model) that got 40 mpg on the highway, 36 mpg mixed driving.  They could make a car even better today if they sacrificed a little performance from what we now expect.  However, the Prius does get the best mileage of any car currently sold in the U.S. by EPA, and real-world averages reported by drivers show about 47-48 mpg in mixed driving.  Careful drivers with a good commute can get over 60mpg average (I get 50 mpg overall).  Only the Civic Hybrid comes close.  Plus, I don't know about your 200SX, but my Sentra didn't have air bags, power steering, power brakes, power seats, power locks, power windows, passenger-side rear-view mirror, traction control, CVT, 3-point seatbelts all around, etc. Nerfer (talk) 07:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not a big deal 

message: The article gives a figure of 13,000 to 14,000 kilometres as the UK average miles travelled by car;  and it gives a reference to the ASA judgement which states that figure.  But it's not clear to me that the ASA judgement is stating the figure as the UK annual mileage;  I thought the ASA judgement was taking data from charts supplied to it by Toyota.  Toyota may not have been supplying those charts to support its assumption about annual miles covered.
The UK motoring organisation has been reported as saying in 2002 that the UK annual average was 10,000 miles;  http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/articles/31-01-02_1 says
"A cursory glance at the mileages of used cars on Britain's forecourts suggests that the annual average miles covered might be on the increase, but the RAC report sample says that 10,000 miles p.a. has remained a constant for the last 13 years. The official Transport Statistics Great Britain annual confirms this view."
Further, the average number of vehicles per household is said to be 1.5;  it seems plausible that one vehicle covers more miles than the other.  And so, when considering a vehicle from the standpoint of CO2 emissions, it may be that the would-be purchaser intends to use the lower-CO2 vehicle for the higher mileage.
And in http://www.toyota.co.uk/C1725/?CampaignID=C2494&BrochureRCode=RC25905&TestdriveRCode=RC25915&LandingPage=KW_Prius_WhatCar
Toyota still advertises that "The Prius emits 1 tonne less CO2 per year than a family saloon".
All in all, I don't believe that the ASA judgement casts any light on the Prius's environmental performance. 
Tim Martin
Tim2718281 (talk) 02:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Average annual miles for UK cars 

message: The NHW20 section is way longer than it needs to be, it's describing some common vehicle technologies in excruciating, unnecessary detail. I'm gonna be going through and removing information, as thus. Bluetooth and Smart Key blurbs will be greatly reduced, among things. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 08:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Article Cleanup 

message: I am moving this section, which is near the end of the article to the section on models, as this is a variant of a model.Congolese (talk) 03:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hydrogen Prius moving 

message: The article is inconsistent in its use of "NHW" vs. "NWH", with multiple instances of each. As far as I have been able to determine (see edmunds.com or priuschat.com) "NHW" is correct and I am editing the article to reflect that. Just in case "NHW" is not correct, someone else please edit them all the other way. --DavidConrad (talk) 01:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  NHW vs. NWH 

message: Propose to integrate the name history into the article and delete it as a separate section.  Propose to revamp the argument on what to call 2 or more Prius cars (Prii, Priora, Prius, etc.)  The Ford Taurus article does not have a debate over whether it's Taurii or Tauruses.  Suggest any argument be merged with the Latin article or simply delted or mentioned as a footnote. Congolese (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What do you mean "integrate it into the article"? It is in the article already. I have no idea about the Taurus and its name, but the Prius's name has been a notable topic and verifiable references are provided for it. --JWB (talk) 20:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Name 

message: Why would a battery need  a reserve for regenerative braking? Even if it is somehow true, it doesn't make sense to the average reader, which I consider myself to be in this case. A reserve is meant for something that is intended for consumption, not something one may add to.
They are normally charged to 40-60% of maximum capacity to prolong battery life as well as provide a reserve for regenerative braking;
Rosenbluh (talk) 23:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  reserve for regenerative braking 

message: The link to the Detroit News article on the solar cells put on the roof of hybrid cars is no longer available online.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by LochNess (talk • contribs) 03:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Solar Prius" subsection 

message: I have deleted the following: 
... however, even though most of the vehicles are produced in plants in North America, the fact it is a Japanese company means driving a Prius would conflict with the beliefs of protectionist or nationalist Americans, especially since domestic manufacturers such as General Motors and Ford Motor Company now offer hybrid vehicles vehicles of their own
The reason is because even though Toyota is headquartered in Japan and it is listed on a Japanese stock exchange, foreigners can be shareholders, which means an American can partially own Toyota.
Also, there is no evidence that driving a Prius goes against protectionist American beliefs because we don't know where the components and even the components of the components come from and who they ultimately benefit. Remember that many Toyota shareholders may be non-Japanese people.
Furthermore, Ford and GM may be heavily foreign owned. It all depends on the nationality of shareholders. GM is I estimate 10 per cent owned by Arab investors.
--Knowledge-is-power (talk) 12:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Protectionism/Nationalism 

message: A few commonly-held but nonetheless incorrect thoughts about the 2001 model and the classic model in general keep appearing in the classic section.  I'm putting this here so all of you know to kill these items should they show up again.
1)  "The 2001 Prius had no options."  Incorrect.  Options included cruise control, single cd player, 5-disk cd changer, leather seats, alarm system, glass breakage sensor, VIN etching, and side air bags.  It also has the controls for the nav system.  I haven't found a 2001 model that has the nav system installed, but you can probably bet that it exists at least on some of the later models since the controls are there.  Note that the nav system for this model IS available for purchase from Toyota as a separate part, so it's a safe bet that it was available at purchase time.
2)  "The Classic Prius after 2001 had no options other than cruise control and a navigation system."  Incorrect.  See above.
3)  "The Classic Prius air conditioning would only work if the engine was on."  This is partially true, but not completely.  The AC will run on these models with the engine off, such as when at a stoplight, but the engine will cycle on and off once per minute or so in order to keep the compressor working adequately.  72.177.40.111 (talk) 08:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  2001 / "Classic" available options 

message: The Prius's shape gives it a low 0.26 coefficient of drag.[92]
In spite of the efficiency of the Prius's shape, in 2004, industry analyst Art Spinella of CNW Marketing Research (CNWMR), whose skepticism towards hybrids is well known (see Lifetime energy cost), said "the Prius was a fashion statement", attributing its success over the Honda Civic Hybrid, which has a nearly identical appearance to its non-hybrid versions, to its distinctive styling, which lets "other people know the driver is driving a hybrid vehicle". However, this does not explain the lack of success for the even more distinctive Honda Insight.[93]. (Excluding the fact that demand for two-seaters is far less than that for four-seaters.)
In July 2007 the The New York Times[94] published an article using data from CNW Marketing Research finding that 57% of Prius buyers said their main reason for buying was that "it makes a statement about me.", while just 36% cited fuel economy as a prime motivator. Shortly afterwards Washington Post columnist Robert Samuelson coined the term "Prius politics" to describe a situation where the driver's desire to "show off" is a stronger motivator than the desire to curb greenhouse gas emissions.[95]
I'd like to remove the whole section about the Prius being a fashion statement. The section is above. Most people buy a car for its looks. There's no surprise that people like appearances, and studied back this up for every car type. Yet are we going to put a section on fashion statements on every car model's Wikipedia page?
Plus even though Art Spinella says something, his reasoning is can be wrong. That the Prius sells more than the Civic Hybrid may be due to the Prius being more fuel efficient (the Prius consumes 4.4 L/100km while the Civic Hybrid consumes 5.6 L/100km). One way the Prius is more fuel efficient is its low coefficient of drag. Plus the Prius has four seats rather than two. 
--Knowledge-is-power (talk) 13:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Agree.  For future reference, please follow wikipedia convention of putting new talk sections at the bottom. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 15:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

text: Disagree.  While I agree that overall a critical factor in buying cars is looks, the Prius distinctive style is definitely intentional and a major selling point for Toyota (in addition to fuel efficiency).  The NYT article is good evidence to that claim, and I believe that section should stay.  I also believe similar sections should appear in other car pages where there's distinctive variations from the common styles (eg. the Pontiac Aztek, PT Cruiser, etc.).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SDNick484 (talk • contribs) 04:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Is this article about the Prius or about CNW Marketing Research?  It is hard to tell.  The group in question have already had their analyses disproven, so why are non-reliable sources given so much weight? Red Harvest (talk) 04:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This section has to go for several reasons.  1.  By its nature it is a POV trap and relies on a biased, discredited marketing firm's claims for its very existence.  (Undue weight to a biased source.)  2.  The need for a low drag coefficient and 4 passenger seating/cargo space define the shape--the latest images of the Volt and the new Insight reveal very similar contours to the Prius (function defines form.)  3.  It really isn't relevant with gasoline prices where they have been over the past year.  There is ample economic justification as shown in Consumer Reports and other's cost analysis.  4.  Comparison reviews of the Honda Civic Hybrid have favored the Prius in terms of performance, and passenger/cargo space, so this is an apples to oranges comparison. Red Harvest (talk) 04:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Fashion Statement