Talk:Religious debates over the Harry Potter series/Archive 2

message: I think it'd be appropriate that the book A Charmed Life: The Spirituality of Potterworld by Francis Bridger be included in this article. I've read the book, which was written by an Anglican scholar and theologian, and it basically states that the Harry Potter book series has moral themes which are consistent with those of Christianity. He also refutes some of the criticism directed towards the book series, and explains his defense of the book series as a basic good vs. evil story using magic as a literary device to convey that story. It was written in 2002, before Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix came out. Of course, I'm not sure where it could be included, so I've posted here. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 15:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  ''A Charmed Life'' 

message: This is my first Wikipedia post, so please bear with me if the formatting is off...
I just stumbled across this page, and it seems to me that the first section entitled "Christianity" is biased against the Christian perspective that all people who practice witchcraft are evil. I am specifically referring to the line "The Hebrew words translated in these passages are M'khashepah and M'khaseph, words that mean a sorcerer or sorceress who is evil — that is, one who uses spoken spells to harm others." This sentence should be removed. The Hebrew words quoted are not sourced and are incorrect, plus the addition of the last clause ("who is evil — that is, one who uses spoken spells to harm others") appears to be added to garner support for the Harry Potter characters who do not use magic to harm others, and insinuates that a Hebrew word exists for sorcerers who are good, which there is not, unless it is a Prophet, which the Bible contrasts with sorcerers.
That Christians and Jews (along with the author of Exodus and Deuteronomy) consider all magic to be grouped under one heading- occult practice- needs no real explanation. Nonetheless, I will quote from a few works stating that the statement currently on the page is incorrect, rather than using my own language.
Merril F. Unger, "Biblical Demonology." Scripture Press Foundation: 11th ed., 1973.
Pg 111:
To the Hebrews, deities worshipped by other peoples were evil spirits or demons, with which magicians and diviners trafficked. To practice magic or divination, or to support them, was to them, at least to the God-fearing and orthodox among them, tantamount to an acknowledgment of idols. This is the reason that Hebrew names for heathen gods ( shedhim, seirim, 'elilim, gad), which really denoted the demons behind the visible idolatrous representations, have been so translated in the Septuagint.
In 2 Kings 9:22 magic seems actually to be identified with idolatry, where the "whoredoms" ("idolatries"), and "witchcrafts" ("keshaphim", "magical incantations") of Jezebel are mentioned.
pg 123:
Little wonder, then, that "one that useth divination," or "one that practiceth augury," is placed in the same category with the sorcerer, the medium, the wizard, and the necromancer, as "an abomination unto Jehovah," and is unequivocally condemned (Deut. 18:10-14); while the prophet of Jehovah is contrasted with diviners of all kinds, as the only authentic and duly authorized agent of supernatural revelation.
The next source is C. Fred Dickason, "Angels: Elect and Evil." Moody Press: 1975.
Pg 196:
Scholars divide the occult into three main categories: divination, magic, and spiritism.
Dickason divides Divination between astrology, cartomancy, palmistry, use of the divining rod and pendulum, psychometry, and dreams and visions. (pgs 196-197) and continues:
The Bible sees divination as open to demon influence and producing spiritual degradation. So the Bible consistently condemns it (Lev 19:31; 20:6, 27; Is 44:24-25; Eze 21:21; Ho 4:12; Amos 5:25- 26; Zec 10:2; Ac 7:41-43; 16:16- 18; Gal 5:20).
Pg 198:
2. Magic. This refers to the ancient 'art of sorcery and magic mentioned in the Bible, the actual cult of demons perfomed in collaboration with the powers of darkness.'(Ed: footnote to Kurt Koch, "Occult Bondage and Deliverance," p. 21) Magic seeks accomplishment of results beyond human power by recourse to superhuman spirit agencies, such as Satan and demons.(Ed: footnote to Merrill F. Unger, "Demons in the World Today," p 76.) Divination taps secret knowledge, whereas magic taps secret power.
Magic may be impersonal or personal. Impersonal magic seeks superstitiously to control natural law or events by such means as incantations, spells, amulets, and charms, apart from demonic intervention. Personal magic calls upon real personal agents in the spirit world to accomplish the supernatural effect desired.(Ed: footnote to Unger, Ibid, p 79) Whether black, white, or neutral magic, it is demonic in character.
Magic includes the healing an inflicting of diseases, love and hate magic, curses, fertility charms, persecution and defense magic, banning and loosing, and death magic.(Ed: footnote to Koch, p 20)
I think these reputable sources conclude that the Bible denounces magic of all kinds as evil, and therefore disproves the disputed line.
There are also problems with the source #14 pertaining to reliability. The part of the webpage cited and directly used is "note 1" about halfway down the page. First it starts with an incorrect statement, it says "The Hebrew word "m'khashepah" has generally been translated as witch or sorceress in most Bible versions," which insinuates that this is the word used in the passage noted, Exodus 22:18. NASB Hebrew concordance (NASB Hebrew concordance) lists the use of  "sorceress" as the Hebrew word 'anan (Strong's Concordance reference # H6049). Note 1 is also erroneous in its assumption that "16 kinds of witches exist," which may be true today, yet the article cites no references for this being true pertaining to the Hebrew cultural context of Ex 22:18. According to the concordance, a trusted scholarly reference, all witches and sorceresses are categorized under this one word. Similarly, the line ""Sorceress" by itself is a poor translation, because in modern day usage, some sorcerers or sorceresses restrict themselves to performing positive healing magic" has the same problems in that modern day usage does not dictate translation of an ancient word. The page lacks a scholarly reference backing this statement. I believe source #14 is therefore dubious in its credentials and should also be removed.
To sum, I think the entire line, "The Hebrew words translated in these passages are M'khashepah and M'khaseph,  words that mean a sorcerer or sorceress who is evil — that is, one who uses spoken spells to harm others" should be removed because it insinuates that the Bible, or at least the Jews divided witches between those that are good and those that are evil, rather than the plain fact that the Bible sees all witches and sorcerers as evil, plus the fact that it is in error as to the specific Hebrew words used. The line should be removed and I don't believe any further additions or subtractions are necessary, although if agreed upon, I would be willing to write and footnote a more suitable substitution.
Msenders (talk) 16:58, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: The translation of the Hebrew is sourced to the religioustolerance.org site. It may be possible to construct an alternate translation, but any sources used would have to also mention Harry Potter to avoid WP:SYN. Serendipodous 17:01, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think there needs to be a new translation suggested; I simply think that the page cited is dubious and therefore the whole sentence should be removed. Simple posting of the Bible passages should really be sufficient, otherwise you get into the extremely large subject of biblical interpretation and critical commentary, which obviously has nothing to do with the subject. The larger problem, is that the religioustolerance.org site itself does not cite any reputable sources for its translation of the word or even any sources that state that the Hebrew word used is the correct one. The links I posted to Biblical concordances are as good as quoting dictionaries. Strong's Concordance is a source used by scholars in both conservative and critical works. The links I posted to the concordance's translation are of higher reputation than religioustolerance.org. Msenders (talk) 17:21, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Simply posting the Bible passages leads to complaints like this one here, disputing the validity of using one translation over another. Best to keep to the Hebrew originals. If your citations are more academic, then using them should be fine. But be sure not to go any farther than the text you are quoting.Serendipodous 17:23, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't think you're understanding me... the Hebrew used on religioustolerance.org is incorrect. Check the pages I cited. They give the actual Hebrew words used, written in Hebrew. The currently footnoted page is just flat-out wrong, and is not supported scholastically. If religioustolerance.org footnoted to another source such as a source-critical commentary or a Hebrew concordance that was in agreement with what religioustolerance.org says, then that would be another situation. Basically, without it citing a reputable source, it has no authority in its translation of a word and is nothing more than opinion. Msenders (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 17:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I don't think WP:SYN really applies in this case, since we're dealing with something that is commonly accepted (and, while the religioustolerance.org site as a whole discusses Harry Potter, that specific page, as it happens, does not). I wouldn't mind a straight quote from one of your sources followed by a very terse translation, but I don't think going into the detail you did on the talk page would be a good idea. Serendipodous 17:58, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Made the change, hope its to your liking. A little busy now, but if it'd be preferable, when I get some more free time, I'll go back and add the Hebrew for the following verse, as well as the words used there as well, though I think it may be beyond what is necessary. Msenders (talk) 18:01, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I would appreciate it if you did; these things do get called up for citation, particularly on controversial pages like this. Serendipodous 18:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Potential Bias in first section 

message: Just thinking, but the first paragraph says "...or to the works of C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien, both authors known for writing fantasy novels with heavily Christian subtext" But if you follow the link, the review doesn't really say that. Neither do i think their books have such. /Björn
--213.64.66.134 (talk) 00:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Heavily christian subtext? 

message: Shouldn't there be more here from John Granger, a conservative Christian who was at first wary of the books, but now evangelizes him in college courses and through his The Hidden Key to Harry Potter and Finding God in Harry Potter?  I think it should be made clear in this article that some Christians can take the same elements that offend the anti-Potter Christians and say "There's nothing here that we as Christians should steer clear of."  Granger makes that point elegantly, including, for example, noting the distinction between Invocational magic (calling spirits to do your will) and Incantational magic (saying words to create magical effects); the first is soundly condemned across many religions (not just Christianity and Judaism), while the other is a well-established literary device.  Harry Potter never uses the invocational magic, unless maybe you're counting the summoning of the house elves.
So... please put up some counter-arguments on this article, using Granger's material.  I think it would be useful here. Kilyle (talk) 08:48, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: John Granger is mentioned many times in this article. Serendipodous 11:07, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  More on John Granger 

message: Connie Neal is red-linked in this article, I thought those weren't allowed in featured articles?124.180.222.177 (talk) 06:38, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not sure, but it doesn't really matter, so removed. Serendipodous 10:38, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Red links are fine so long as it is reasonable to assume they have the potential to become articles (blue links) in the future. Wrad (talk) 18:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay, and I suppose as long as they aren't red links to what would be considered crucial to understanding the topic.124.180.222.177 (talk) 04:30, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Connie Neal 

message: In the Islam section where it says it is banned in schools in United Arab mirates - this is a complete lie. Harry Potter books are available in my school libraries, all seven of them in the Junior and senior libraries of my school  in Dubai UAE
Your death 66% loaded  █████___ please wait 16:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's sourced. If the rules have changed since then, another source would be welcome. Serendipodous 16:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  False news 

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