Talk:Hamites

message: One user has repeatedly inserted a section on "Genetics". It has already been reverted because "'Hamitic' is now considered obsolete classification, so a section on the genetics of the various (not necessarily especially related) groups that may (or may not) have been considered Hamites by the Bible is not relevant/appropriate."
Please give your reasons or refrain from inserting that section again. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:57, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I doubt that User:Rsk6400 would see this save for my mentioning them. We attempt to be scholarly, which means using reliable sources to discuss a subject. The term is obsolete academically. "Scientifically discredited" doesn't sound political to me. Racism is a fact and used by many sources. Ironically, to me you appear to be making a political appeal. If you are on a crusade to remove the word "racist" from our articles, you won't get far unless of course it isn't sourced. Doug Weller talk 15:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Genetics not needed 

message: I got the impression that some editors who worked on this article have the notion that Hamites are an Ethnic group. Others (to whom I belong) are attached to mainstream science that has ceased to use the concept of a "Hamitic race" or "Hamitic languages". I'm planning to revise the article, but for now I'm convinced that the article doesn't meet the criteria for a B-Class article. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:54, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Problems of the article 

message: I don't think the word "European" is a good replacement for "Eurocentric". Samuel George Morton, mentioned in the article, surely wasn't a "European anthropologist". "European colonialism" is taken directly from the source, but in the source it is used for the time of the emergence of the concept, roughly meaning 15th to 18th centuries. The article mostly deals with the 19th / 20th centuries. And slavery in the southern US was not "European ... oppression". On the other hand, the definition in Eurocentrism describes exactly the world view of the early proponents of our theory.  is not a reason against using it, because it was coined from the beginning to describe / criticize thoughts of the past. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:24, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I don't agree that Eurocentric is the correct word. Granted that Morton etc were not European, but the afrocentrists were definitely not eurocentric. In addition it seems the word Hamite was invented before the advent of colonialism too. Perhaps the first sentence should be simplified to read: "Hamites is the name formerly used for some North African peoples, in the context of a now-outdated model of dividing humanity into different races which was developed originally by Europeans in support of discrimination and slavery." Wdford (talk) 21:27, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I like your solution very much, but I exchanged "discrimination" for "colonialism", since in those early centuries the experience of "discrimination" was largely restricted to free Blacks and native Americans living in direct contact with Europeans, i.e. to a small minority. I also deleted the sentence about afrocentrists and white supremacists because I think the "alike" of the source refers to a specific time, and was certainly not true for the 19th century. The term "white supremacists" has often been removed by vandals and has each time been restored by one of many constructive editors, so maybe its absence from the current version will lead to further discussion. I personally think that it is important to state that "Hamites" were not a neutral scientific theory, but a theory developed in support of white supremacy. This is sufficiently well expressed in your phrase, so that the word "white supremacists" is no longer needed. --Rsk6400 (talk) 09:47, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

text: Regarding the "creators", I think  is already very strong. And afrocentric authors surely were not involved in the original creation of the concept. Regarding Rwanda: Go ahead ! I don't think adding something about Rwanda would be problematic. Regarding the first source you gave: The book seems to be about the Curse of Ham, which was used by fundamentalist Christians to justify the enslavement of West Africans. This article is about the Hamitic theory, which was used by Western authors to divide Africans into "better" Hamites and "lesser" "Negroids". That's something different. Regarding pseudoscience: I could imagine a first sentence like . What do you think ? Regarding the article promoting the Hamitic theory: Could you name some examples ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 15:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree with you, the opening is far too didatic for an encyclopedia, and while it is obviously true that scientific racism was used to justify imperialism and slavery in the 19th century (though not at the same time, neither by generally the same people), is absoluteley not a consensus that scientific racism was created to justify imperialism or slavery. Just because an idea was used for a purpose it doesn't mean that it was created with that purpose. There were racial scientists who opposed Imperialism, and many were actually abolitionists Knoterification (talk) 03:59, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: The AABA (formerly AAPA) to which the introducing sentence is sourced, is the most respected international (sic) body of biological (physiological) anthropologists. If they publish a document, we may assume that they express consensus. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eurocentric ? 

message: I don’t have access to Oxford etymology dictionary. According to etymology.com the first use of the word “Negroid” was in 1844. This is the same year Morton’s Crania Ægyptiaca was published. If anyone has a subscription for Oxford source I think they can prove it 
https://www.etymonline.com/word/negroid
If anyone can prove this I’d kindly ask them to add this to the section “Negroid rather than Negro”. 
On reference 50 I cited etymology.com. If anyone can find anything you can replace that reference. Thank you Markj573 (talk) 00:11, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  I think Samuel Morton invented the word “Negroid”