Talk:Leopold Cohn (Christian clergyman)

message: I changed the disambiguation tag for this article from "Leopold Cohn (Messianic clergyman)" to "Leopold Cohn (Christian clergyman)" because:
# The reliable secondary source Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism by Randall Balmer (a Ph.D. from Princeton who is professor of American religious history at Barnard College, Columbia University, an editor for Christianity Today, and an Episcopal priest) says of Cohn:  "Shortly after Leopold Cohn arrived in New York City from Hungary in 1892, he forsook his Jewish heritage and converted to Christianity."  The source does not mention Cohn being involved in "Messianic Judaism."
# Cohn himself refers to the people who underwent the same religious transformation he did thus (emphasis mine):  There was a time when Jewish zealots were absolutely indifferent toward the mission. They said, “Let them alone, they cannot do us any harm. Jews will never accept the Christian religion.” But in the last few years they have begun to rub their eyes and see Jewish converts to Christianity by the hundreds and thousands and they now are awakening from their indifference. They see that the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is a wonderful power and has taken hold of many Jews in Brooklyn and that it is impossible to stem its mighty tide.
 (This Cohn quote is in a paper by Mitch Glaser, currently President of Chosen People Ministries, self-described as an organization of "Messianic Judaism".)  Cohn refers to himself as Jewish convert to Christianity, not "Messianic Judaism."
# As has been established at Messianic Judaism, the religious movement of Messianic Judaism arose in the 1960s, many decades after Cohn's death, so it would be an anachronism to refer to Cohn as a "Messianic clergyman."
Hope this clears up any confusion. Zad68 (talk) 23:33, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I know you are adamant that arose (got up, got larger) = began (started), but I am not confused in knowing that CPM, a Messanic organization, began in 1894.--DeknMike (talk) 19:03, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

text: I'm glad you liked my edits.  As far as I can tell from the sources, the organization started by Cohn was a standard evangelical Christian mission from the time Cohn started it up until 10-20 years before it changed its name to Chosen People Ministries.  It would be interesting to find a source, even a primary source, that shows the date of its shift in its style of evangelism from being a traditional 'mission to Jews' to being a promoter of 'Messianic Judaism'. Zad68 (talk) 17:22, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be hard to find a change because Messianic Judaism is what was practiced by Rabbi Cohn, although the term wasn't commonly used then.  Note that Moishe Rosen left ABMJ because his methods were too much like normative Christian evangelism to be compatible with the organization's aims of planting congregations that maintained Jewish forms of worship.--DeknMike (talk) 22:29, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: DeknMike, reliable secondary sources disagree with you here.  If you have a reliable secondary source to support your claim "Messianic Judaism is what was practiced by Rabbi Cohn", and I mean, real, reliable, sources that would pass WP:RS, I'd like to see it. Zad68 (talk) 02:14, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: By 'reliable' do you mean shills for the AntiMessianic cabal?  No, we can't find the data from there. The weight of dozens of sources say the movement is the same since the early 1800s, and only the name has changed.--DeknMike (talk) 04:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: DeknMike, you really need to review, understand and start applying the Wikipedia policies of civility, assume good faith, and reliable sources.  Also you should read the essay on verifiability, not truth.  Editors that don't agree with these Wikipedia principles will find contributing to Wikipedia an endless source of frustration.  To the topic at hand:  If you cannot find acceptable reliable sources that support your ideas then you should not be surprised when your edits along those lines get reverted.  Either find reliable sources or stop making such edits.  You seem to be admitting that you cannot find reliable sources, so I expect edits along those lines should stop.  Zad68 (talk) 21:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read them.  Although you quote them often, no one within the Wikisphere attacks me personally as often as you.  I wasn't aware you were the sole arbitrator of "reliability" - shallow sources that agree with your preconceived notions on the matter are 'respected' and those that disagree are 'unreliable.' There seems to be no other criteria. That is why I have zero respect for your opinion.--DeknMike (talk) 04:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Rest assured that I am wholly unconcerned about obtaining your respect for my opinion when I make my edits.  What I am concerned about is making good-quality edits that meet Wikipedia's policies of verifiability, neutral point of view, and no original research.  You should be, too.  I do not believe I make personal attacks against you.  If you think that I have, please make me aware of two or three of my worst offenders and give me the opportunity to reflect on them and apologize if necessary.  I think the Wikipedia policies of civility and no personal attacks are very important.  As far as your concern about what should count for reliable sources, you don't have to believe me or go by my opinion:  if you think you have a reliable source that isn't being treated as such for the purposes you are trying to use them for, you should bring them to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and I will agree to the decision reached by the independent third parties there, and you will too. Zad68 (talk) 02:19, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Leopold Cohn as "Christian clergyman" and not "Messianic clergyman" 

message: -----------------
Zad68, it's heartening to see you are beginning to understand the roots of Messianic Judaism.  Cohn's Williamsburg Mission later changed its name (but not it's focus) to the American Board of Missions to Jews, which subsequently changed their name to Chosen People Ministries.  Messianism goes back quite a ways. --DeknMike (talk) 15:01, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm glad you liked my edits.  As far as I can tell from the sources, the organization started by Cohn was a standard evangelical Christian mission from the time Cohn started it up until 10-20 years before it changed its name to Chosen People Ministries.  It would be interesting to find a source, even a primary source, that shows the date of its shift in its style of evangelism from being a traditional 'mission to Jews' to being a promoter of 'Messianic Judaism'. Zad68 (talk) 17:22, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It would be hard to find a change because Messianic Judaism is what was practiced by Rabbi Cohn, although the term wasn't commonly used then.  Note that Moishe Rosen left ABMJ because his methods were too much like normative Christian evangelism to be compatible with the organization's aims of planting congregations that maintained Jewish forms of worship.--DeknMike (talk) 22:29, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: DeknMike, reliable secondary sources disagree with you here.  If you have a reliable secondary source to support your claim "Messianic Judaism is what was practiced by Rabbi Cohn", and I mean, real, reliable, sources that would pass WP:RS, I'd like to see it. Zad68 (talk) 02:14, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: By 'reliable' do you mean shills for the AntiMessianic cabal?  No, we can't find the data from there. The weight of dozens of sources say the movement is the same since the early 1800s, and only the name has changed.--DeknMike (talk) 04:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: DeknMike, you really need to review, understand and start applying the Wikipedia policies of civility, assume good faith, and reliable sources.  Also you should read the essay on verifiability, not truth.  Editors that don't agree with these Wikipedia principles will find contributing to Wikipedia an endless source of frustration.  To the topic at hand:  If you cannot find acceptable reliable sources that support your ideas then you should not be surprised when your edits along those lines get reverted.  Either find reliable sources or stop making such edits.  You seem to be admitting that you cannot find reliable sources, so I expect edits along those lines should stop.  Zad68 (talk) 21:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I've read them.  Although you quote them often, no one within the Wikisphere attacks me personally as often as you.  I wasn't aware you were the sole arbitrator of "reliability" - shallow sources that agree with your preconceived notions on the matter are 'respected' and those that disagree are 'unreliable.' There seems to be no other criteria. That is why I have zero respect for your opinion.--DeknMike (talk) 04:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Rest assured that I am wholly unconcerned about obtaining your respect for my opinion when I make my edits.  What I am concerned about is making good-quality edits that meet Wikipedia's policies of verifiability, neutral point of view, and no original research.  You should be, too.  I do not believe I make personal attacks against you.  If you think that I have, please make me aware of two or three of my worst offenders and give me the opportunity to reflect on them and apologize if necessary.  I think the Wikipedia policies of civility and no personal attacks are very important.  As far as your concern about what should count for reliable sources, you don't have to believe me or go by my opinion:  if you think you have a reliable source that isn't being treated as such for the purposes you are trying to use them for, you should bring them to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and I will agree to the decision reached by the independent third parties there, and you will too. Zad68 (talk) 02:19, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: References

message: An image used in this article, File:Cohn.jpeg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status 
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replies: text: I believe I have handled this by applying the Public Domain tag to the file, the image appeared at least as early as 1903 in the "MINUTES OF THE FIRST Hebrew-Christian Conference OF THE United States", which makes it old enough for public domain.  Zad68 (talk) 19:31, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: File:Cohn.jpeg Nominated for speedy Deletion

message: keeps removing the following sentence from the article entirely, or removing Eichhorn's name from it:
David Max Eichhorn writes that "As early as October 13, 1893, Adolph Benjamin wrote in the Hebrew Standard that Cohn's real name was Itsak Leib Joszovics".
Various edit summaries include "  ", Eichhorn was quoting. Put his name in the reference., Eichhorn is a modern detractor, and Again, Eichman didn't make the claim.. Since all four edit summaries give different reasons, could DeknMike please pick a specific reason for removing Eichhorn's name from the article, and then provide a rationale for doing so? Jayjg (talk) 00:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: All 4 apply.  Eichhorn might be a noted AntiMessianic, but using his name in the article is not relevant.  It's in the footnote; that's enough.  It's clear to me the accusations were false, but until I find the references, I maintained the text, though the name of the author that quoted the primary source is not relevant to the article.--DeknMike (talk) 02:11, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I have no idea if Eichhorn is a "noted AntiMessianic", and I strongly doubt you do - do you have any evidence for this? Also, WP:V and WP:NPOV indicate that one should cite claims in the name of the person making them, and WP:CITE is also clear that is the case for direct quotations. Do you have any policy-based reasons for removing his name? Jayjg (talk) 02:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Making a direct quote about a discredited accusation is POV in this article; why include his name and not Ariel, who is the source for much of the article text?  And I said Eichhorn might be; you keep putting his name back in to support spurious 'evidence' so I made an assumption.--DeknMike (talk) 05:29, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: The accusation has not been "discredited" except, perhaps, in your opinion, and Ariel's name is included too. Also, you basically stated Eichhorn was a "noted AntiMessianic", despite there being no evidence or even implication that he was or is one - please stop playing games. If you remove the explicit reference to Eichhorn the next step will be presenting you for administrative action. WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV and WP:CITE are quite clear that claims and quotes must be presented in the name of the people making them. Find a policy-based reason for removing it, and then get consensus for doing so. Jayjg (talk) 00:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: It's not just my opinion.  You continue to remove the sourced note about James Gray's inquiry into allegations such as these, and subsequent acquittal.  It might not fit your POV, but the evidence shows that the accusers were liars trying to discredit a successful missionary.--DeknMike (talk) 02:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: In 1916 a bunch of unofficial, self-appointed, fellow evangelical Protestants (led by James Gray) decided that Cohn was doing honest work. This was no independent judicial inquiry, or anything near it, and makes no statement regarding whether or not he was a rabbi, whether he was convicted in Hungary, what his real name was, etc. You can choose to believe them, or anything else you like about Cohn, but WP:V and WP:NPOV view their opinion as just another claim, no more reliable than any other, and much less reliable than modern WP:RS. Jayjg (talk) 03:00, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Eichhorn, Benjamin 

message: DeknMike keeps inserting the following sentence, which I've brought here for discussion:
At a time when other Jewish missions were open to scandal because of sloppy or intentionally vague record-keeping, Cohn asserted he carried out all the activities advertised and "could account for every penny it received." 
Considering the fact that the quote is not about Leopold Cohn, but rather about his son Joseph, can Mike explain why he keeps inserting this? Jayjg (talk) 00:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cohn asserts he is honest