Talk:ENIAC

message: The British produced 2 computers during WW2, Collossus and another more advanced one I can't remember the name of (Fdsdh1 (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: The ten British Colossus computers (used for cryptanalysis starting in 1943) were designed by Tommy Flowers. The Colossus computers were digital, electronic, and were programmed by plugboard and switches, but they were dedicated to code breaking and not general purpose.Wa3frp (talk) 21:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: Sorry the ENIAC was rather a giant electronic calculating machine not general purpose in the modern sense so using that definition the Colossus position stands and before that came the Manchester SSEM. Twobells (talk) 09:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I think it's probably the case that the dedication to code breaking wasn't so much a technical fact, as simply being the purpose for which they were built. They didn't do other things because that wasn't what the British government was paying that department to do.Brianetta Brian Ronald, UK.  Talk here 10:53, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: the ABC (Atanasoff Berry Computer) was the first the first automatic electronic digital computer not the ENIAC. Oscar111811 (talk) 23:32, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  That was a special-purpose machine.  All it could do was solve a system of linear equations.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 00:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

text: the ABC (Atanasoff Berry Computer) was the first the first automatic electronic digital computer not the ENIAC. Oscar111811 (talk) 23:34, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: Even the Colossus was not the first electronic computer, as the Berry-Atanasoff computer had been built and tested over a year before the Colossus. It is true though that the Colossus was programmable, but only partially so, and was designed for a very specific task. The ENIAC was the first 'fully' programmable electronic computer. the article is accurate in describing as the first 'general use' computer.
Wouldn't the Mark 1 be considered first over the ENIAC? The Mark 1 was officially presented by Harvard university on August 24, 1944 (found in Mark 1 wikipedia article) which was before the official presentation of ENIAC. Would it not be considered first because they are in different categories if they are in different categories of computer? Sobewong (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

text: The Harvard Mark I was an electromechanical, not an electronic device, as was the Z3. The Atanasoff–Berry computer was not programmable and its development was abandoned before it worked satisfactorily. So Colossus's claim to be the first computer is dependent on the set of adjectives used before the word "computer". Colossus was digital, electronic and binary, but it was programmed by setting switches and connecting patch leads, as was ENIAC. It counted the result of a wide range of Boolean functions but did not have the range of arithmetic functions of ENIAC which had units for addition and subtraction, multiplication, division and square rooting. ENIAC could therefore perform a greater range of functions and can arguably add "general-purpose" to the set of adjectives, although it did use decimal rather than binary arithmetic. TedColes (talk) 13:07, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
thread_title: World's First?

message: I am proposing (that we revert to):
ENIAC was the first electronic general-purpose computer.
For a little while, but not too long, the ENIAC page has opened:  "ENIAC was amongst the earliest electronic general-purpose computers made. "  This is incorrect, there were no other computers at that time that were both electronic and general-purpose, so it was "the first" of that description.
"It was amongst the earliest computers" might also be correct - but all of the other early computers on Wikipedia are proudly opening with a bold first.  For example -- here's the current rundown, as of March 27, 2019:
The Atanasoff–Berry computer (ABC) was the first automatic electronic digital computer.
Colossus is thus regarded[3] as the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer
The Z3 was the world's first working programmable, fully automatic digital computer.
The Manchester Baby, was the world's first electronic stored-program computer. 
So in line with that, we go back to the two adjectives that set it apart from the others:
ENIAC was the first electronic general-purpose computer.
I realize there has been a war between "the first computers" on Wikipedia, going back a decade or more, so I do not do this "lightly."  I think this accurately reflects what the majority of historians and Wikipedia editors think.  I was considering also adding that it was the biggest and most bad-ass looking, but refrained.  Zebbie (talk) 00:50, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it was the first electronic general-purpose computer.  Earlier general-purpose computers were electo-mechanical.  ABC and Colossus were special-purpose computers.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:42, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

text: Colossus was definitely a special-purpose machine.  ENIAC was built for calculating artillery tables but it wasn't limited to that.  The first major work done by ENIAC was on calculations for the design of the hydrogen bomb (nothing like artillery tables).  In at least one of the books about ENIAC there is a list of all of the different types of programs it ran. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 16:53, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: "The First What?" Round 15

message: "Two women operating ENIAC" is all we have to say about the women who programmed ENIAC?
The source site for the image (http://ftp.arl.mil/ftp/historic-computers/) captions it as follows:
Two women operating the ENIAC's main control panel while the machine was still located at the Moore School. "U.S. Army Photo" from the archives of the ARL Technical Library. Left: Betty Jennings (Mrs. Bryant) Right: Frances Bilas (Mrs. Spence)
We should at least mention the two best-known ENIAC programmers, Betty (Snyder) Holberton and Jean (Jennings) Bartik.
Betty Holberton
http://www.livewirecom.com/columns/97.05.html
Jean Bartik
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blbartik.htm
The front lines: History of software begins with the work of some brainy women
Petzinger, Thomas Jr; The Wall Street Journal; Nov 15, 1996; B1;
http://www.haven.org/~dkap/writings/History_of_computers
(wsj.com confirms that an article with this title and author was published,
but they don't post archive full-text online)
--Rob* 06:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
replies: text: I think the most helpful thing to do would be to refer to the ENIAC programmers by their contemporary names, and leave their married names to be elaborated in their individual articles.  Otherwise we put ourselves in the position of referring to Kay McNulty as "Kathleen Rita McNulty Mauchly Antonelli," which is a mouthful, or Betty Jean Jennings (who now calls herself Jean Bartik) as something like "Elizabeth Jean Jennings Bartik," which is, in addition to being overlong, also incorrect, as Jean Bartik's birth name was "Betty Jean," not "Elizabeth Jean," contrary to what is printed in one popular source (McCartney). Robert K S 14:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: The pictures in this article are captioned correctly.  Your confusion may stem from an error in the NYT article that was subsequently corrected.  Robert K S (talk) 02:39, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: One of the important points about Wikipedia is everyone's opportunity to write new articles and to edit and improve existing articles. You have brought up an issue that should be addressed.  I hope that you address all of the issues that you just described by both writing the new article and editing any copy that you feel "...downplays the significance of these women and their role in the history of technology and gender..." Wa3frp (talk) 15:00, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

text: However it is edited, feminist "us against them" ideology and criticism should be left out. This article's main, if not only, purpose should be to describe a piece of technology; politics and ideology need not enter into it. Alialiac (talk) 02:53, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Women who Programmed ENIAC 

message: First para is currently confusing: was ENIAC actually the first to fulfill all the qualities in this sentence, or was it first thought to fulfill one set of criteria, and is now known to fulfill a different set? I've had a bash at clarifying, using the article and above discussions. Please correct if I've introduced errors.
ENIAC, short for Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer, was long thought to have been the first Turing-complete electronic computer. It is now known to be the first large-scale, electronic, digital computer capable of being reprogrammed to solve a full range of computing problems. Earlier computers included the German Z3, designed in 1941 by Konrad Zuse, and the British Colossus computer of 1944, designed by Tommy Flowers. The Z3 was the world's first general purpose, electro-mechanical computer. It was Turing-complete, fully programmable by tape and used relays for all functions, so was not electronic; Colossus was all-electronic and could be reprogrammed by rewiring, but was not fully general purpose. Until 1948, ENIAC also required rewiring to reprogram. Both ENIAC and Colossus used thermionic valves, that is, vacuum tubes. The confusion as to priority arose because the machines were developed independently as part of each country's war effort in WWII. The Z3 was destroyed by Allied bombing of Berlin in 1944, and although selected US teams were introduced to the Colossus, its existence remained classified until the 1970s.
It might be appropriate to move most of the material about the Z3 and Colossus further down, as per the Z3 article. Thoughts please... JackyR 20:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Looks good. -- RTC 21:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree that the other stuff should be moved. -- Dominus 22:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I've done the changes in two steps. The first drops the above § in for the intro, the second rearranges the material to make the intro more about ENIAC, less about other machines. If the result isn't satisfactory, pls feel free to revert to step 1. Thanks for watching over these changes :-) JackyR 01:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  First para rephrase 

message: The article states:
:Some electronics experts predicted that tube failures would occur so frequently that the machine would never be useful. This prediction turned out to be partially correct: several tubes burned out almost every day, leaving it nonfunctional about half the time. (According to a 1989 interview with Eckert the continuously failing tubes story was a myth: "We had a tube fail about every two days and we could locate the problem within 15 minutes.") Special high-reliability tubes were not available until 1948. Most of these failures, however, occurred during the warm-up and cool-down periods, when the tube heaters and cathodes were under the most thermal stress. By the simple (if expensive) expedient of never turning the machine off, the engineers reduced ENIAC's tube failures to the more acceptable rate of one tube every two days. In 1954, the longest continuous period of operation without a failure was 116 hours (close to five days). Given the technology available at the time, this failure rate was remarkably low, and stands as a tribute to the precise engineering of ENIAC.
I have highlighted both Eckert's recalled failure rate and the rate previously in the article (before the addition of the Eckert comment) and they look identical to me. Perhaps Eckert was recalling only the later rate of failure instead of initial problems before the solution of leaving the machine on was discovered... -- RTC 01:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tube failures 

message: I've added a concealed comment to the sections that mention other computers, because these seem to attract edits that might be more appropriate for those machines' specialist articles. Comment is: "THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT ENIAC. If you wish to add very detailed material about other computers, please consider adding it to that computer's own article or History of computing hardware. Happy editing!" Hope this doesn't ruffle any feathers - pls remove if it does. Cheers, JackyR 00:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Added hidden suggestion 

message: :The idea of the stored-program computer with combined memory for program and data was conceived during the development of the ENIAC, but it was not implemented at that time because World War II priorities required the machine to be completed quickly, and it was realized that 20 storage locations for memory and programs would be much too small.
:Currently, this is under Comparison, but it doesn't do much comparing. I'd be more comfortable if either (a) context were added to compare to the other machines (I can't do ths bit), or (b) the sentence went back into Description. Opinions? JackyR 01:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Come on guys, the thing about Konrad Zuse's Z3 not being electronic because it used relays is a joke! The only difference between a vaccuum tube and a relay is that one is mechanical and one is solid state. The Z3 is what we would call the first modern day computer, bar none. The Z3 needs to be featured more prominently and explicitly stated in this article that is was the first. JettaMann 16:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: No, this article is about ENIAC. The main material about the Z3 should be under Z3, and the main comparison of the different machines should be under History of computing hardware, as a daughter page if necessary. That article currently needs a little structural work, and a feature-by-feature comparison job of the early machines would be a plus, so if you felt like wading in that would be wonderful. JackyR | Talk 17:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

text: I agree actually. The comparison section seems fine as it does in fact mention the Z3, which is all that is required. JettaMann 17:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title:  Comparison? 

message: Do we know if ENIAC still exists? What happened to it after the 1950s? Are its pieces in a museum? Pictureuploader 22:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Several portions still exist. The University of Pennsylvania where it was built has four units operational (the Cycling Unit, the Master Programmer Unit, an accumulator, and one Function Table), the Smithsonian has some of it, the Computer History Museum has one Function Table Panel (on loan from the Smithsonian). -- RTC 07:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Much of the ENIAC still exists; not all of it has been restored for display, and of the pieces that have been, the Smithsonian is not aware of the locations of all of them.  An exhaustive worldwide search for ENIAC components would be a worthwhile endeavor, one which I attempted at one point but proved to be overwhelming. Robert K S 14:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: History

message: The image caption reads "Two women about to get boned by the ENIAC" - is this some term I am not aware of, or is it somebody trying to be funny?? - User:Dawidl
I thought that, but checking the history shows it was vandalism, I've reverted the page. 155.198.63.111 15:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Image caption vandalsim?

message: I came to this article hoping to find out when ENIAC was first working but I'm confused by the intro. Can someone help clarify this?
First it says ENIAC was built by the Army in 1942. (Does that mean it was working then?) Then it says it was commissioned in 1943. (There's a link from "commissioned" to the explanation of the meaning of "putting a ship into service". But does this mean it was put into service; or is it the other meaning of "commissioned", that an order was placed?) Then it says it was constructed by Penn's Moore School of Electrical Engineering from mid-1944. (Does this mean it was working in 1944?) Then the intro says it was "unveiled" in 1946. (Does this mean it was working for the first time in 1946?)
If anyone can come up with an answer that would be a great help? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.35.173.37 (talk • contribs) 15:14, June 6, 2006  (UTC)
:Some errors recently crept into the article. ENIAC was built for the Army by engineers at the Moore School of the University of Pennsylvania.  The 1942 date was incorrect.  The article should have said that the project was approved for construction in mid-1943.  Design work took about a year, and the computer was built over 18 months from mid-1944 to the end of 1945.  Final assembly was undertaken in the fall of 1945. For example, the divider and square root modules were installed in October 1945.  Parts of it were working prior to that, but you could say the full machine was not functional until the last couple of months of 1945, with formal acceptance at the February 1946 public event. --Blainster 10:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Incidentally, the "February 1946 public event" Blainster references above took place on February 15, not 14 as cited by McCartney and possibly several other secondary sources.  Primary sources, such as the event invitation, show that nothing was scheduled for the 14th. Robert K S 15:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Here is a New York Times article indicating that the machine was "announced" on the evening of February 14, 1946, even though the formal dedication and public demonstration was not until the following day. Robert K S (talk) 16:29, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  When was ENIAC first shown to work? 

message: "...voided the 1964 ENIAC patent as derivative of John Atanasoff's ABC Computer."
Other than the (double!) redundancy at the end of this remark, it is misleading as it is a simplification of the ruling, omitting what were actually numerous reasons cited for the invalidation of the ENIAC patent (among several other Eckert-Mauchly patents).  If Blainster does not object, I will reword. Robert K S 14:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: The phrase could be improved. I'm OK with "John Atanasoff's computer" or the "Atanasoff Berry Computer" instead of the the "ABC Computer".  Just saying "Atanasoff's ABC" leaves the reader in a quandry. But the intro paragragh should be kept very simple.  The details are present in the articles on Mauchly and Atanasoff, where they are more appropriate.  We should just mention the patent problem and link to details in other articles.  --Blainster 18:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree.  As-is, the wording is not controversy-neutral, which the article should try to be. Ultimately, perhaps, there should be a Honeywell v. Sperry Rand page and any article will just be able to link to it with a minimum of explication and be done with it. Any further duking out over the interpretations of the ruling can be done there. Robert K S 18:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

text: Caselaw article created.  Please feel free to improve it.  I hope additions and corrections will make the article more neutral rather than less neutral.  It is not my intention to have created a place for controversy to blossom into vandalism, reverts, airing of unsubstantiated claims, etc. Robert K S 08:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Honeywell v. Sperry Rand Ruling summary

message: Until 1948, ENIAC required rewiring to reprogram, like the Colossus.
How does this "rewiring to reprogram" relate to the Turing-completeness of ENIAC? Unfortunately, I can't find any information about this in the article, except that the comparison table says "yes". - Was this proven by anyone, like the Turing-completeness of the Z3? Without Turing-completeness you can hardly speak of a true general purpose computer. MikeZ 08:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: This thought occurred to me too when I read the article, so I was happy to find the question already raised here.  However I don't believe it is problematic if understood as follows.  A Turing machine U is universal when there exists a convention for encoding any Turing machine T as a word e(T) such that for any Turing machine T, when U is started on a tape containing e(T) followed by w, U halts if and only if T halts when started on a tape containing w, and if U halts it leaves the tape in the same configuration T would have left it in when it halted.  (So U's task ostensibly is to decode e(T), run T on w, and if T halts clean up all the tape except for T's output.)  Universal Turing machines exist, however most Turing machines are not universal in that sense: their finite state control is typically "prewired" to perform some more particular task.  Now if it is possible to rewire the ENIAC with a program for reading a list of tuples describing a Turing machine and then emulating that machine, the ENIAC with that rewiring would be as universal as a universal Turing machine.  Thus if we understand the ENIAC as a class of computers, and a particular wiring of the ENIAC as making it a particular computer, it is fair to say that the ENIAC is as universal as a Turing machine.  From that perspective one can no more say that all rewirings of the ENIAC are universal than that all Turing machines are universal.  The crucial distinction from the Colossus is that while the ENIAC was designed to be rewired by its users as a normal part of its operation, the corresponding rewiring of the Colossus would have to be done "at the factory" with a soldering iron and additional vacuum tubes.  If you could claim that the Colossus was programmable in that sense, you could equally well call a sedan a convertible because one can saw off the roof.  If the user of the ENIAC can program it to read Turing machine tuples, the ENIAC is as universal as the Turing machine.  --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 20:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Rewiring to reprogram" vs. Turing-completeness of ENIAC? 

message: There have been several attempts today to alter the acronym expansion in the first paragraph of the article, replacing "..and Computer" with "...and Calculator."  I'm not sure if this is out of a desire to denigrate the ENIAC, placing it in a lower status than later stored-program machines, or if the editor came across this expansion in bona fide contemporary sources (of which I'm sure several examples exist); in either case, it is assuredly incorrect.  The earliest documents refer to the machine as "...and Computer," or in some cases, "...and Computor," which seems to be a misspelling preferred by Mauchly, and the one that made it onto the plaque affixed to the ENIAC, a fact that I don't think bears mentioning in the article proper. In hopes of remedying the vandalism I have added a footnote reference to the Goldstine book.  While Goldstine was wrong about several things, on this matter he should be considered authoritative, as he was present at the BRL meeting that proposed the machine and had a clear memory of the device's name (whether or not it originated with Col. Gillon). Robert K S 02:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone tried this again today.  I checked the cited reference (), which unvaryingly uses "computer".  For example, "At this meeting, Gillon named the proposed machine the Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer and gave it the acronym ENIAC." (Page 150).  Goldstine also cites many earlier documents that all use "computer".  For example, .  —Mark Dominus (talk) 14:23, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Electronic Numerical Integrator and ''Calculator''?

message: I believe a section should be added highlighting the court case and the fact that for a significant period of history, it was believed to be the first modern computer. The related section on the Atanasoff–Berry Computer#Controversy page would do for a simple copy and paste job! Would a Controversy section do the trick? 220.239.157.232 05:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: An entire article discusses this (linked in the third paragraph of this article). Please see Honeywell v. Sperry Rand. --Blainster 22:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Court case

message: Not my turf, guys, but maybe you could be interested in this picture:
Randroide 17:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Yep, fun picture, more relevant to a discussion of the evolution of computer hardware than the ENIAC itself. Robert K S 00:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to be clear, the person third from left is not Ruth Teitelbaum.  That ID and upload, which stayed up on the Ruth Teitelbaum article for years without being caught, was made by an account that has since been deleted for sockpuppet activity. Robert K S (talk) 16:39, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title:  Picture 

message: The article says: "The Z3, Colossus and ENIAC were developed independently and in secret as part of each country's war effort in World War II. The Z3 was destroyed by Allied bombing of Berlin in 1944.... For these reasons, histories of computing formerly mentioned only ENIAC and the Harvard Mark I from this period."
Certainly Colossus was part of the war effort but is this true for the Z3? The Z3 article is rather sparse and doesn't mention it. But the Konrad Zuse article says: "Zuse never received the official support that computer pioneers in Allied countries, such as Alan Turing, managed to get. The telephone relays used in his machines were largely collected from discarded stock. A request by his co-worker Helmut Schreyer to the war-time government for federal funding for an electronic successor to the Z3 was denied as 'strategically unimportant'."
Does anyone know which article is correct? Was the Z3 part of the war effort or not? As for "histories of computing (mentioning) only ENIAC and the Harvard Mark I", maybe this statement is just based on English language histories. Is it certain that German language histories of computing mentioned only ENIAC and the Harvard Mark I? Adrian Robson 09:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: Question answered on Talk:Z3. Adrian Robson 09:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: AFAIK, Zuse received his funding from developing special computers for the Henschel Hs 293, the precursor of today's cruise missiles. Schily (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Z3 part of war effort? 

message: Does anyone know how fast the ENIAC was in MHz, or a comparable unit?
Hey, my warranty didn't run out after all! 20:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: That information is in the third paragraph of the description.  The ENIAC machine cycle speed cannot be compared directly to modern CPU clock cycles because (for the problems it was designed to run) it was so much more parallel than today's typical architectures.  Possibly the closest comparison would be to the Cell microprocessor found in the PlayStation 3, which uses a master Power Processor Element to control, in parallel, its eight Synergistic Processor Elements, which is broadly analogous to the way the ENIAC's master control panel could control its many accumulators, high-speed multiplier, divider/square-rooter, etc. Robert K S 21:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Then how about math operations per second? Any kind of measurement is better than none at all.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.63.127 (talk) 04:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Speed 

message: The one thing this article lacks is a description of how ENIAC actually worked. A fetishistic listing of its size, weight, number of valves and panoply of functional units does not tell you this. Rather, you need to know about how the bits fitted together, and how they were configured and controlled. This is difficult, because ENIAC is so different from modern post- Baby computers, but it has to be done. This is absolutely crucial to understanding ENIAC's place as a transitional form between things like differential analysers and the modern concept of a computer, and deciding whether you think it was truly a programmable machine: before von Neumann's 1948 modifications, there was no stored program, but rather an implicit program embodied in the way the largely autonomous functional units were cabled together.
The only good account of ENIAC's architecture written for modern readers that i've found is in a paper by Atsushi Akera:
Exploring the architecture of an early machine: the historical relevance of the Eniac machine architecture - A. Akera, M. Marcus (1996); IEEE Annals of the History of Computing 18(1):17
Which is sadly behind a subscription wall. I've read it, but still don't understand it well enough to be able to write a good description of the architecture. Does anyone fancy doing this? Pleeeeeease?
-- Tom Anderson 2007-07-17 21:50 +0100
:Re: "But it has to be done"--such a functional description of the ENIAC, any more than one or two paragraphs (which I think would be insufficient for the type of description you seek), is quite beyond the scope of this article.  The 1981 Burks & Burks article for the Annals is well over a hundred pages and barely scratches the surface in this regard.  Those looking for information about how the ENIAC worked would be advised to seek more complete, more authoritative sources than a Wikipedia article.  It is enough for this article to say what the computer was, what function it served, who built it, and some of the particulars of its technological and political history.  In other words, its significance to the history of computing as a whole.  (In the details of its implementation, it lends little to that history, as virtually everything about its logical and electronic design was quickly superseded.) Robert K S 03:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: What a fascinting speculation. But are there any souces that can be cited to provide evidence?--TedColes (talk) 10:25, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Architecture! 

message: From reading in past years, I rather vividly recall how lots of Friden four-function desktop calculators (Perhaps model STWs, or possibly STs) were operated by women. Despite their best efforts (and I do believe they were quite conscientious), the whole operation went awfully slowly. Apparently there were many stages of computation, and the results read from the calculator carriage dials had to be transcribed and manually entered into other calculators designated to handle a later stage of the problem. Earlier in my life, I learned about details of the Friden mechanical line, and have had a sustained (but waning!) interest in mechanical calculators. As well, I have been relatively well informed about electronics, having once seen schematics of the ENIAC decimal accumulators (probably in the IEEE Annals / Hist. / Computing). Most of my lifetime work was as an electronic technician.
What seems quite evident, although I have never read this idea explicitly, was that a major bottleneck in the slowness of the bank-of-calculators effort was the time required to transfer the contents of one calculator's result dials to another calculator's keyboard to be used for a calculation.
I strongly suspect that the basic concept of ENIAC was to "simulate" ten places of the Friden 20-place result (accumulator) dials, or the 10-place quotient dials. This was done by the 10-digit decimal accumulators. Cables interconnected the ENIAC accumulators, tremendously speeding up transfer of intermediate results. As well, Fridens were limited to 10 operations per second; even the wondrously ingenious and sophisticated Marchants operated at only 1300 cycles per minute. As well, entering numbers manually took seconds per calculation.
It seems to me that the ENIAC designers wanted to interconnect the decimal accumulators via pluggable cables, with the specific arrangement depending upon the problem to be solved. As well, calculation speed was hardly a trivial enhancement, in particular for mult., division, and square root. (Was the Friden SRW, which did square root, developed to assist in ballistics calculations? Would be interesting to know!) (The SRW used the division mechanism, with a quite-modest increase in complexity of the total machine, perhaps 10% or so. Think of it as a division operation, but with a constantly-increasing number in the keyboard.)
After WW II, (almost certain), Friden sold Computypers, business/accounting machines with Flexowriter input and output. Those were via paper tape or edge-punched cards, the latter using paper tape standards, as well as keyboard and typed documents. Inside the machine was an STW mechanism with solenoids operating the keystems and rotary switches on the shafts of the result dials -- it had electrical input, output, and commands. It's just possible that the electrical I/O had its origins in trying to speed up the earlier partly-human effort. (Of course, the actual computations were no faster in the Computyper than in a desktop calculator.)
Regards, Nikevich 10:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What a fascinting speculation. But are there any souces that can be cited to provide evidence?--TedColes (talk) 10:25, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  An uncommon perspective on origins of the ENIAC's architecture 

message: I have a few questions (please give references when answering):
* Was the ENIAC designed to be Turing complete?
* If not, which was the first machine designed to be Turing complete?
* When was it first shown that the ENIAC was Turing complete?
Thanks, --Phrood 13:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Turing completeness 

message: The third paragraph in this section is largely wrong. Von Neumann never intended to take credit for himself, and it was well known by Eckert and Mauchly that he was writing a report. They gave him the go ahead. It was a draft and was released prematurely by the Moore school (Goldstine specifically) because of the large amount of doubt in other academics that the project would succeed. Having such an influential man behind it added a lot of credibilty. This section cites no sources, and needs to be edited drastically. Sadly I have no time at the moment.
See Mauchly, "Amending the EDVAC story" for verification of the above.
Stuk 20:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Well, I've tried to pare down some of the unsourced "POV"-y material.  Feel free to take another stab at it/provide sourcing. Robert K S 01:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Programmability and von Neumann 

message: The Story recently interviewed Mrs. Bartik, and may provide some additional information or references for this article.  Jouster  (whisper) 18:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[The Story with Dick Gordon|The Story]] Interview 

message: I actually met two of these ladies who worked on Eniac. I was studying computers, and they were introduced in a lecture. They said they were Coders and that there was no such thing as Programmers at the time. They said jokingly that Programnming was invented in the 50s so that men could do computing as well. They explained that women were far more intelligent and it was they who did coding. The coding consisted of series of 0s and 1s, whereas programming was issuing instructions which were translated into 0s and 1s.  Wallie (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Cite it and write it. If you know this to be a problem with the article, then you can fix the article.  --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:06, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: Coders or Programmers

message: Surely von Neumann's early ENIAC programming was on the atom bomb not the hydrogen bomb? --TedColes (talk) 11:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: It was the hydrogen bomb, and von Neumann wasn't involved.  The program was run by Frankel and Metropolis. Robert K S (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: So are you saying that GroveGuy's recently added paragraph is quite wrong? --TedColes (talk) 15:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

text: I moved GroveGuy's addition on the H-bomb calculations from the lede paragraph because the intro is already too long.  He objected so I added a brief mention back in.  The info in this external link on the article page attributed to the Computer History Museum says that the program run at the public unveiling in Feb 46 was a ballistics trajectory program.  But of course how would anyone have known?  --Blainster (talk) 05:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Bainster - I am sorry you characterize my words as "complaining". I was trying to use rigorous logic to support having my contribution remain in the lead paragraph. It really doesn't belong in the programming section. As for what was running on the computer on the day it was unveiled, I think they were telling a white lie. This article says they postponed moving ENIAC to Aberdeen (until November 1946) in order to complete the test of the H-bomb calculations. A million punch cards - it boggles the mind. GroveGuy (talk) 08:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Programming 

message: The article says ENIAC occupied about 680 sq. feet. However, the dimensions provided would put it at around 2000 sq feet, and the specifications in a cited article indicate that it is 1800 sq feet. Could someone resolve this significant discrepancy? I have read claims that someone patrolled with a shopping cart of vacuum tubes, but current reports of tube failure make that seem unlikely, if anyone has a definitive statement I would be interested.
Jgrudin (talk) 11:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Size and Reliability 

message: If you read and compare the Colossus computer and ENIAC articles in detail, it appears that the Colossus computer was earlier. Thus the claim of ENIAC being the first computer is debatable. But I suppose you could add lots of qualifications to your definition of computer to make ENIAC earlier. 78.144.207.126 (talk) 22:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: There is no doubt that Colossus was working and serving its end users in February 1944, at least two years before the same could be said to be true of ENIAC. The problem lies in defining 'computer'. ENIAC had more of the characteristics of today's computers than Colossus did, but did not have its program stored in volatile memory as was the case with the SSEM. Colossus ENIAC was, however a general-purpose machine whereas Colossus was designed and implemented for a narrow range of special purposes. The phrase 'the first computer' is not very helpful, and the apparent suggestion that the definition of 'computer' should be qualified to ensure that ENIAC comes out as the first, does not do justice to the various parallel developments in different places that happened in the 1940s.--TedColes (talk) 23:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

text: "Colossus was, however a general-purpose machine whereas Colossus was designed and implemented for a narrow range of special purposes." Which was it? General-purpose or special purpose? Jpaulm (talk) 15:44, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm sure this was a typo. Ted must have meant to say "ENIAC was, however a general-purpose machine whereas Colossus was designed and implemented for a narrow range of special purposes." GroveGuy (talk) 20:09, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, that is what I meant to say. My apologies. --TedColes (talk) 22:37, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Colossus computer]] a few months earlier than [[ENIAC]] 

message: I am a Computer Science major from the 90's.  I read many books on the history of computers and I dedicated their related acronyms to memory.
Memory serves that ENIAC was an acronym for "Electronic Numerical Integrator And Calculator"... not "and computer" as shown on Wiki.  Perhaps an oversight?  Perhaps I'm incorrect?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.153.57.114 (talk) 19:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: This link is from the University of Pennsylvania Archives: http://www.archives.upenn.edu/faids/upd/eniactrial/upd8_10.htmlWa3frp (talk) 19:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

text: Also see the discussion of this above.  —Mark Dominus (talk) 22:58, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Today's reverted edit is about the twentieth time someone wants to substitute "calculator" for "computer". I wonder why this tendency is so strong? GroveGuy (talk) 20:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Feel-good revisionism?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.20.134 (talk) 01:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  ...and Calculator, or ... and Computer 

message: "Most of these failures, however, occurred during the warm-up and cool-down periods, when the tube heaters and cathodes were under the most thermal stress"
Warmup failures are usually addressed with slow-start circuitry. Today, silicon regulators and timing relays for tube gear are cheap, and back in the fourties they could use variacs for slow-starting. Fairly big variacs indeed but was still practical. 
I'm sure that they had to consider variacs - but what happened then? Did they actually try it, and if yes - did it improve anything? 
Cheers, East of Borschov 08:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: (1) I've never heard of them doing this, but I can't answer definitely. (2) How do/did Variacs work?  "Tube gear" today tends to mean amplification, wherein the amplifiers have one or a few tubes.  Here we are talking about counting and switching circuits with many tubes.  Would implementation of Variacs still be practical?  Are Variacs devices that are likewise susceptible to breakage and would thus introduce just yet another point of failure? Robert K S (talk) 22:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: If you haven't already, try searching for Variac. We're speculating here, we'd need a reference that variable autotransformers were used, or not used, with early computers.  I've seen a variac as big as 30 kva, which would run a large number of 6SN7 heaters. --Wtshymanski (talk) 01:29, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tube failures again 

message: Re: this edit, GroveGuy believes it is important to include in the lead that ENIAC's first problem was for the hydrogen bomb.  I see this as more of a parenthetical that would be more appropriate to mention and fully discuss later in the article.  Any other thoughts on this?  WP:LEAD, and especially the section on "Relative emphasis", is relevant here. Robert K S (talk) 12:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: If true, then it would seem absolutely correct to mention that in the intro; the current intro gives a very different impression which is seriously misleading if in fact ENIAC was first used for something quite different than is stated now. quota (talk) 13:52, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: But be careful!  "First used" is ambiguous phraseology.  It could mean "initial purpose", but here, it does not.  That a hydrogen bomb-related problem happened to be the first task to which the ENIAC was put to work was an accidental or coincidental sort of thing.  It wasn't "essential" to the ENIAC in that it doesn't explain any of the major who-what-when-where-why-how questions that a well-written lead is supposed to address.  In that sense, it's sort of interesting trivia, a fun aside, but not proper material for the lead.  Yes, it's fascinating information in an "oh-by-the-way" sense.  Good to have in the article?  Surely.  But the lead?  Does it address one of those major questions?  Given that it was a one-time thing, and the ENIAC wasn't built specifically for it, why is it appropriate content for the lead?  In my opinion, if included there, it is more misleading than helpful. Robert K S (talk) 22:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

text: I believe that the change in sponsorship of ENIAC belongs in the lead paragraph. Today ENIAC is on the front page of CNN and they again promulgate the myth of the artillery firing tables.One year into the ENIAC project it came to the attention of the atomic bomb people. From that point forward the lion's share of the computations done on the project were atomic bomb calculations. Other calculation got the leftover time on weekends and holidays. It went from a $61,000 to a $486,000 project over three years. Notice that the patent dispute says "The Los Alamos calculations which commenced December 10, 1945, were the first problem placed on the ENIAC machine. When the first problem was put on the machine, it was the first time that the machine as a whole was being used.". The atomic bomb  was the largest and the most secret project of World War II. Let's do the right thing here and restore ENIAC's association with the bomb. GroveGuy (talk) 22:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: We're debating *which* way the ENIAC was devoted to killing people?  Does it really matter? Weaons all have the same ultimate purpose. Artillery tables must have paled in importance after the bomb came out. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: GroveGuy, sorry, but your response is only misinformation or confusion.  There was never a "change in sponsorship" of the ENIAC.  From beginning to end the project was financed by the Ballistics Research Laboratory based in Aberdeen, Maryland.  It is not true that "the lion's share of the computations done on the project were atomic bomb calculations".  I can't tell whether your response really confuses the atomic bomb and the hydrogen bomb or whether you're only mixing up terminology.  In any case, the first problem to be run on the ENIAC which took advantage of the entire machine was a problem run by Stanley Frankel and Nicholas Metropolis for the hydrogen bomb.  The gradual increase in the project's budget that you make reference to was by request of the Army as additional accumulator units and features were requested so that the machine would be capable of handling broader classes of problems, not specifically hydrodynamics problems or problems of interest to nuclear weapons scientists.  Your statement "Other calculation got the leftover time on weekends and holidays" seems to be conflating into your own new theory other elements of the story: John Mauchly on a few occasions made use of the machine on weekends and holidays to run hobby problems of academic interest, such as Dick Lehmer's number sieves.  The fact that "the atomic bomb was the largest and most secret project of World War II" is of no moment whatsoever since both atom bombs were dropped in August 1945 without the aid of ENIAC, which wasn't finished until months afterward in November.  Also, I don't think there's any evidence that the hydrogen bomb people ever ran a problem on the ENIAC again after that first run; perhaps they did, but we're not here to speculate—we are bound with what is verifiable in the record. Robert K S (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

text: Robert - You are quite right. I read Goldstine's book and was struck by the fact that while the Ballistics Research Laboratory initiated this project Goldstine says on page 214 the problem being computed was hydrodynamics. Goldstine says on page 226 "that first run" was a million punch cards.  That's a thousand boxes of cards. It boggles the mind. And to have a project's budget doubled and doubled and doubled again seems pretty extraordinary. So, reading between the lines, so to speak, it seemed to me the h-bomb people had taken over the project. I don't have a source to quote that exactly says this, but it seems to me that that's what happended. And if we're looking for consensus, note that both quota and Wtshymanski support me. GroveGuy (talk) 07:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text:  Goldstine's book doesn't literally say what the calculations were for; he points out that he and other ENIAC personnel weren't cleared for weapons research and so no-one told them exactly what the calculations were used for, but Los Alamos wasn't working on improving watch dials. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: While we don't know exactly what the mathematical-physical nature of the Los Alamos problem, it is not true that we don't know its general nature as a simulation of a theory for the hydrogen bomb--Teller's theory, in fact.  Edward Teller testified about the problem in Honeywell v. Sperry Rand, years before Goldstine wrote his book.  See, e.g., McCartney page 104.  As for GroveGuy's "reading between the lines", it is not accurate.  It is true that Los Alamos heard about the ENIAC's successful completion and was eager to run a problem on it, and was granted priority to get the first major problem as soon as the machine was finished being tested out.  It is not true that this problem was responsible for the expansion of the ENIAC contract and the increase in its budget.  Actually, the budget increase and expansion of the project to enhance the computer's capabilities was anticipated from the very beginning of the contract by Colonel Gillon, among others, as Goldstine, Mauchly, Eckert and others related on numerous occasions. Cheers, Robert K S (talk) 00:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Mention of hydrogen bomb belongs in lead? 

message: The comparative table of the first computers contains some information that may be inexact. 
1. ENIAC became operational in November 1945, when it ran a series of calculations for the hydrogen bomb. ENIAC was secretly operating a few months before it was introduced to the public in July 1946. 
2. According to the book "Origins of Cyberspace: A Library on the History of Computing, Networking and Telecommunications" by Diana H. Hook and Jeremy M. Norman, Zuse Z4 did not have conditional branching in its original 1945 version. Z4 became Turing-complete only in its final version, which became operational in 1949-1950. Well, one may argue that the same odd hack that is described in Raul Rojas's paper on Z3's purely theoretical "Turing-completeness" could work also with Z4, but that's not the way how Konrad Zuse himself had implemented the branching later.
3. I am not sure that "Modified ENIAC" deserves a separate entry in the table. All those computers, including ENIAC, were modified significantly a number of times through their history, but there was no such machine called "Modified ENIAC". These modifications were just a part of ENIAC's development, followed by a series of other modifications.
I am not going to change any of these details, but I think someone who is an expert in computer history should check it out. Laplandian (talk) 20:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree that it would be appropriate for someone who is an expert on the history of computing to improve the table. It is, however, a free-standing entity within Wikipedia, a 'Template' under the titile of "Early computer characteristics" that is 'transcluded' into this article and a number of others. I am therefore going to copy this section into the talk page for it which is at Template talk:Early computer characteristics. --TedColes (talk) 12:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: What is the source for (1) above? As regards (2)I am concerned that Turing compatability is given undue prominence in the table. Perhaps it would be better replaced with the number of machines constructed, but that would, I think, be one for all except Colossus Mark 2. Alternatively 'Memory size' might be useful, if an agreed definition of memory in these machines could be agreed. Re. (3), I agree that the 'Modified ENIAC' row of the table could well be deleted similarly the Mark 1 and Mark 2 Colossus could be merged into a single row. --TedColes (talk) 09:20, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
replies: text: No comment on (1) or (2) (no quibbles from me) but as to (3): while it may be true that a number of computing machines were modified throughout their lifetime, the ENIAC modification was a striking one that significantly changed the way the machine was used forever.  In one sense, it hobbled the machine by preventing the full range of use for which it was designed.  On the other hand, it permitted for faster set-up times.  The machine no longer required more than a day's worth of re-cabling setup for a new problem.  Essentially the only thing that needed to be changed was to enter the "program" by means of setting the dials on the function tables.  This modification fundamentally changed the way the machine was used, and the machine was never used the old way again. Robert K S (talk) 16:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inexact information? 

message: The history section is incomplete. There's no mention at all about when it stopped being used or what happened to it exactly. Gune (talk) 08:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
thread_title: Lack of Information

message: Hello GroveGuy,
If you feel that my edits are changing the meaning of a sentence or are not constructive, please explain why. I've carefully made these edits to make the meaning of the paragraphs more clear by improving the flow of the sentences. I'm guessing you wrote these paragraphs and that's why you have such an interest in maintaining them, but this is a public encyclopedia, not a personal project, so all work is subject to revision and change. If anyone else has opinions, here is the , and please do share.
C0h3n (talk) 13:31, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: C0h3n - the common belief is that they were running programs on ENIAC for artillery tables. I believe Goldstein says that the project got taken over early on by the Atomic Bomb people. Your change takes away from the conflict of the table people vs the bomb people. In the second change single stepping the machine is not the same as executing the program step by step. It is a level lower. I, too, invite others to give their opinions. Don't forget to sign your comments on talk pages. GroveGuy (talk) 03:48, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm not sure what single stepping the machine is in that case, but perhaps a brief explanation would be in order. I'll add the artillery tables part back in. C0h3n (talk) 13:31, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
thread_title:  Programming (first 2 paragraphs) 

message: On the first image, the caption reads "Glen Beck (background) and Betty Snyder (foreground) program ENIAC in BRL building 328. (U.S. Army photo)" Who is this Glen Beck? (not to be confused with Glenn Beck the US conservative commentator) There is no re-direct page at Glenn Beck's page towards Glen Beck; let alone a page, even a stub in Wikipedia that depicts his life. Even a quick Google search is befuddled with results from the contemporary Beck. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.252.179.230 (talk • contribs) 2013-01-26T15:17:29‎
:I just noticed this as well. I'm pretty computer literate, although don't know that much about the very earliest days and I've never heard of a computer scientist named Glen Beck. My guess is someone vandalized the page. I'm going to be wp:bold and change it and just leave Betty's name. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 18:45, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: The name is accurate and genuine.  We might also surmise that Beck's wife's name was Milly. Robert K S (talk) 13:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: A recently uncovered primary source shows that this person's name is, contrary to the caption on Mike Muuss's photo page, actually spelled with two "N"s. Robert K S (talk) 16:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
replies: text: Here is a find-a-grave for the same Glenn A. Beck (1930-2001). Robert K S (talk) 18:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
thread_title: Glen Beck in picture

message: ENIAC was an electronic calculating machine, in no way was it a 'computer', the first actual computers were designed by Kilburn, Blackett and Newman at Manchester, on the Manchester SSEM. Why MUST American's try and grab every first irrespective of the facts??? Twobells (talk) 09:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: Someone keeps reverting 'electronic calculating machine' to 'computer', ENIAC was NOT a computer in any sense of the word.Twobells (talk) 09:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
replies: text: That opinion is not the historical consensus, and it does not have any consensus here on Wikipedia.  Even in its first iteration, ENIAC was programmable to run a full range of computing problems, and could run them at electronic speeds.  ENIAC is referred to widely in the literature as a computer, and even has the word "computer" in the expansion of its acronymic name.  From its very inception, it was referred to as a computer. Robert K S (talk) 20:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not A Computer 

message: Hi. I work for the Bradbury Science Museum that is part of Los Alamos National Laboratory here in (surprise) Los Alamos, NM.
The person who is working with our artifacts pointed out that we have a contribution to the "Parts on Display" section. 
Here is the language she thought should be included: 
“The Bradbury Science Museum in Los Alamos, New Mexico has a data register unit with vacuum tubes.”
Link=http://www.lanl.gov/museum/index.php
I'm including a couple of photos that show it is part of our computing display.
I did not want to edit the page directly and have trouble with COI.
I can be contacted at anderman@lanl.gov 505-665-9196 if there are any questions.
Laanderman (talk) 23:34, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Suggested addition to "Parts on Display" 

message: Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 8 external links on ENIAC. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090123114642/http://www.eniacprogrammers.org/index.shtml to http://eniacprogrammers.org/index.shtml
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060909174756/http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/48eniac-coding/.. to http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040803150905/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/61ordnance/chap2.html to http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/61ordnance/chap2.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110814181522/http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html to http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/comphist/eniac-story.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:19, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
thread_title:  External links modified 

message: I'm not really well versed on the historical details surrounding algorithms, but this sentence immediately read as incorrect to me: "Betty Holberton (née Snyder) continued on to invent the first sorting algorithm".
Sorting algorithms date back to antiquity, so she certainly did not invent the first sorting algorithm. Additionally, the first non-trivial sorting algorithm described academically is Merge sort which is widely credited to Jon von Neumann. Holberton undoubtedly played some significant role related to the history of merge sort, but I don't see any evidence crediting her as the inventor of any particular algorithm.
Her own wiki article currently mentions that "she was one of those who wrote the first generative programming system (SORT/MERGE)" which is verifiable, unlike the unqualified claim currently in the article. I will update this article to replace the unqualified claim with this qualified claim from her page. SloppyG (talk) 15:46, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  "Betty Holberton (née Snyder) continued on to invent the first sorting algorithm" 

message: Under "Contents", the article states that ENIAC contained 20,000 vacuum tubes, but both of the sources that are sited in-line both claim lesser counts, both stating 17,468 or 18,000.
Any thoughts?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5rockhopper4 (talk • contribs) 00:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
replies: text: Sounds like people like to round up.  Change it to "nearly 18000" or "over 17000" or something like that if you like. Dicklyon (talk) 00:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
thread_title:  Wrong information on tube count? 

message: A statement in the article that the ENIAC programmers (or "operators", as they have sometimes been called) crawled around inside the machine to search for defective joints or tubes is not supported by the cited reference, nor does it appear to be factually accurate.  Unfortunately, this statement has by now been picked up by a number of secondary sources (web articles and the like), apparently trusting the Wikipedia statement to be accurate.  However, no primary source has been located that would support the supposition that the ENIAC programmers ever "crawled," inside the machine or otherwise.  Those familiar with the architecture of the ENIAC would understand readily that it would be impossible to fit a human being inside any of the ENIAC's units.  Potentially, it might be necessary to crouch in order to access one of the ENIAC's panels from behind, in a narrow space between the back of the panel and the wall of the room, but this would not have been done by a programmer, since the programmers were not authorized to make interior hardware repairs or component replacements, including of vacuum tubes.  This would have been done by an engineer or technician, sometimes at the suggestion of a programmer.  I have edited the "crawling" language to a statement better supported by the cited reference. Robert K S (talk) 19:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, I've seen most of it (at the Smithsonian when they had it on display, at U Penn, Aberdeen, and Ft. Sill), and it wasn't built in a way that would allow literally crawling inside.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 19:48, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: This is from memory, so correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the museum displays only had a portion of ENIAC, not the whole thing. Also, not sure that programmer/operator and engineer/technician were separate jobs, or whether there was some crossover in the tasks tasks they performed. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:20, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: They were definitely separate jobs, and I can say with some confidence that none of the engineers or technicians were women.  Yes, the ENIAC is in pieces today, but that is irrelevant.  Aside from its function tables, card reader, and other ancillary equipment (none of which could be crawled in), the machine comprised 40 panels each 2 feet wide by 2 feet deep by 8 feet high, arranged together in a room in a large U shape.  None of these panels could be crawled around in.  It would simply be impossible. Robert K S (talk) 15:26, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

text:  Yes, ENIAC is in pieces.  I saw a major part of it when the Smithsonian had it on display in the 1960s and 1970s.  (The last time I was there, it wasn't on display and I don't think it is now).  U of Penn has four panels and a function table, I've seen that.  Aberdeen has a function table, I've seen that.  Fort Sill has, I think, seven panels, and I've seen that.  I've seen them from the front and back, and there is no room to crawl in them, unless you removed a lot of stuff.  And I don't think that was done.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 18:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: That's good enough for me. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:43, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  There was no crawling 

message: Article is woeful and reeks of 2017- onward social justice movement diatribe, history adjusted to suit political fads of gender equality and other US fixations on whitewashing to remedy the unfortunate actual past of humans being largely unpleasant to one another based on race, religion and sex. Readers are lead to believe Wikipedia is an electronic equivalent to Encyclopedia Britannica, an unbiased and historical source free from whatever contemporary foul winds of politics may blow- in this case Intersectionality. It is a great injustice to the reader and history in general that the plain unvarnished truth simply be told as is, a collection of dates and facts without the US inclination to "interpret history", "subjectivity of truth", etc as per Adorno and other members of the New Frankfurt School, Deconstructionism and Intersectionality. 
Credit to the first computer should neither go to Colossus nor Babbage or any Bletchley Park code-cracking speciality machines- total and utter rubbish and classic British Royal Institue style over-reach-ophilia claiming fame for every major invention under the sun along with their beloved alchemist Newton (yes the majority of Newton's (https://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_last_magician_isaac_newtons_dark_secrets: "
Newton the Alchemist: Science, Enigma, and the Quest for Nature's "Secret Fire"; "'Isaac Newton and the Transmutation of Alchemy; "Isaac the Alchemist: Secrets of Isaac Newton, Reveal'd", The Foundations of Newton's Alchemy), output was Alchemy- he was a John Dee admirer very probably a consumer of Royal Kings' Drops (distilled cadaver cranium) and a certifiable lunatic)., 
but the genius of Konrad Zuse, whose Z2 In September 1940 to experts of the Deutsche Versuchsanstalt für Luftfahrt (DVL; i.e. German Research Institute for Aviation) where Germany had multiple supersonic wind tunnels, and the Allies none, as they were at least a  decade behind German aeronautics- see Whittle vs Ohain on the jet turbine, and how we to this day use Ohain and have rejected the Whittle concept of the radial to the Ohain axial compressor.
The peer-reviewed Springer Journal of IFIP WG 9.7 International Conference on the History of Computing (Arthur Tatnall, Tilly Blyth, Roger Johnson Springer: 6 Des 2013: ISBN 9783642416507) held by academics in Computing History in esteem MUST THEREFORE BE ACCORDINGLY RESPECTED BY WIKIPEDIA AMATEUR HISTORIANS and HISTORIOGRAPHERS regardless of their personal biases.
I quote the preface: "The HC 2013, held in London, UK, in June 2013, where 29 revised full papers presented were carefully reviewed and selected from numerous submissions. The papers cover a wide range of topics related to the history of computing and offer a number of different approaches to making this history relevant..."
This is the academia of History of Computing- their journals and publishing must rank as absolutely last-word in the area of computer history, no matter the opinions of non Computer Historians- their opinion, unless published and peer-reviewed, is mere anecdote and hearsay.
I quote from our learned friends of Springer :  "Making the History of Computing Relevant: IFIP WG 9.7 International Conference, HC 2013, London, UK, June 17-18, 2013, Revised Selected Papers: 
page 287: Horst Zuse (author), url: : 
"In this paper we describe the reconstruction of the Konrad Zuse Machine Z3 by the author Horst Zuse in 2008: "Today in the whole world, Konrad Zuse is almost unanimously accepted as the creator/inventor of the first free programmable computer with a binary floating point and switching system that really worked. 
This machine called the Z3- was completed in his small workshop in Berlin (Krezberg) in 1941. Zuse's first thoughts about the logical and technical principles go back to 1934. Zonrad Zuse also created the first programming language (1942-1945) in the world called the Plankalkül. In 1949, he founded the company Zuse KG in Neukirchen (close to Fulda) and built till 1964 more than 250 computers for universities and research facilities.
In 1934 Konrad Zuse formulated the first ideas on computing. The reason was the expensive calculations as a civil engineer. His idea was such stupid calculations should be done by machines and not by human beings. The first question, which Konrad Zuse discussed in 1934 was: "What mathematical problems should a computing machine solve?"
His answer was the following definition of computing (1936): "To build new specifications from given specifications by a prescription". In the year 1943 he expanded the definitions to: "Computing is the deviation of result specifications to any specifications by a prescription".
From these definitions Konrad Zuse defined the logical architecture of his computers Z1 (1936-1938), Z2 (1938) and Z3 (1941-1945). From the beginning it was clear to him, that his computers should be freely programmable. This means they should read an arbitrary meaningful sequence of instructions from a punch tape and the machines should work in the binary digit system, because Konrad Zuse wanted to construct his computers with binary switching elements. Not only should the numbers be represented in a binary form, but the whole logic of the machine should work in a binary switching mechanism (0-1 principle)_ He planned a high performance binary floating point unit which allowed calculating very small and very big numbers with sufficient precision.
He implemented a high performance adder with a one-step carry-ahead and precise arithmetic exceptions handling. He developed a memory where each cell could be addressed by the punch tape and could store arbitrary data, Finally, he constructed a control unity which controlled the whole machine and implement input and output devices from the binary to decimal number system and vice versa.
Parallel Machine: The Z3 was a parallel working machine. The 22 bits from the memory to Register R1 and vice evrsas were moved in one step (cycle). The same holds for the binary arithmetic unit, where among others, two parallel adders (exponent, mantissa) were used. 
Memory: The memory of Z3 consisted of 64 words of 22-bits. Each word was directly addressable by the instructions Pr z or PS z, where z is the address in the range of 64<z<1. For each bit, a relay was needed
Floating point numbers: Konrad Zuse used floating point numbers .
Instructions: The Z3 disposed of the nine instructions
Arithmetic Unit and Carry Ahead: The arithmetic unit of the Z3 is Konrad Zuse's masterstroke. For the realization of addition (subtraction is an additions of the complement of one number and the number) Konrad Zuse implements a special switch because he wanted avoid too many cycles for the addition of two binary floating point numbers. USig the special switch, he could reduce the addition from at least 14 cycles with a serial addition down to three cycles with a parallel addition. Although there were only five instructions (Ls1, Ls2, Lm, Li and Lw) for arithmetic operations some more operations were implemented which could be called from the input device. He also simplified the execution of the arithmetic operations with consequences controlled by stepwise relays." (pages 287-290)
Our learned friends in Wikipedai [History of Computer Hardware} state:
"In 1941, Zuse followed his earlier machine up with the Z3,[58] the world's first working electromechanical programmable, fully automatic digital computer. The Z3 was built with 2000 relays, implementing a 22-bit word length that operated at a clock frequency of about 5–10 Hz. Program code and data were stored on punched film. It was quite similar to modern machines in some respects, pioneering numerous advances such as floating point numbers. Replacement of the hard-to-implement decimal system (used in Charles Babbage's earlier design) by the simpler binary system meant that Zuse's machines were easier to build and potentially more reliable, given the technologies available at that time.[61] The Z3 was probably a Turing-complete machine. In two 1936 patent applications, Zuse also anticipated that machine instructions could be stored in the same storage used for data—the key insight of what became known as the von Neumann architecture, first implemented in 1948 in America in the electromechanical IBM SSEC and in Britain in the fully electronic Manchester Baby."
"Zuse suffered setbacks during World War II when some of his machines were destroyed in the course of Allied bombing campaigns. Apparently his work remained largely unknown to engineers in the UK and US until much later, although at least IBM was aware of it as it financed his post-war startup company in 1946 in return for an option on Zuse's patents. "
I have demonstrated teat ENIAC's claims are based in wishful and magical thinking not fact, and that Colossus while a massive resource dump for British Intelligence and a major national ego back-pat, is not acknowledged by the computer history academia as being as Horst Zuse states: "Today, the Z3 is widely acknowledged as being the first fully functional automatic digital computer"
Furthermore Colossus was not one computer but a set of computers and let's notice the paradoxes of the opening paragraph of the Wikipedia article:
"Colossus was a set of computers developed by British codebreakers in the years 1943–1945 to help in the cryptanalysis of the Lorenz cipher. Colossus used thermionic valves (vacuum tubes) to perform Boolean and counting operations. Colossus is thus regarded[3] as the world's first programmable, electronic, digital computer, although it was programmed by switches and plugs and not by a stored program.[4] ALTHOUGH IT WAS PROGRAMMED BY SWITCHES AND PLUGS NOT A STORED PROGRAM NOR LANGUAGE.
The prototype, Colossus Mark 1, was shown to be working in December 1943 and was in use at Bletchley Park by early 1944. An improved Colossus Mark 2 that used shift registers to quintuple the processing speed, first worked on 1 June 1944, just in time for the Normandy landings on D-Day. Ten Colossi were in use by the end of the war and an eleventh was being commissioned.[7] Bletchley Park's use of these machines allowed the Allies to obtain a vast amount of high-level military intelligence from intercepted radiotelegraphy messages between the German High Command (OKW) and their army commands throughout occupied Europe."
Z1, Z2 and Z3 (1941) all predate Colossus (1943), all used a binary system and a programmable language of Zuse own contrivance Plantalkül (Plan Calculus). Colossus therefore excludes itself as " it was programmed by switches and plugs and not by a stored program".
Further buttressing Zuse's neglected position in computer history is the following material from the Wikipedia article {Konrad Zuse]:
"Plantalkül slightly influenced the design of ALGOL 58[29] but was itself implemented only in 1975 in a dissertation by Joachim Hohmann.[30] Heinz Rutishauser, one of the inventors of ALGOL, wrote: "The very first attempt to devise an algorithmic language was undertaken in 1948 by K. Zuse. His notation was quite general, but the proposal never attained the consideration it deserved"."
From [History of computer hardware]
"Zuse suffered setbacks during World War II when some of his machines were destroyed in the course of Allied bombing campaigns. Apparently his work remained largely unknown to engineers in the UK and US until much later, although at least IBM was aware of it as it financed his post-war startup company in 1946 in return for an option on Zuse's patents." 
Let's grow up and give credit due to whom it is due.Pickypedian (talk) 19:18, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: ...Because walking into a talk page where experienced editors are working towards making a good, accurate article and unloading a WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS wall of text and insulting everybody who is working on the article is a great way to improve Wikipedia. Your only problem is that you didn't go far enough. You need to call us a bedwetting telemarketing nazi cabal. That will surely convince everyone! --Guy Macon (talk) 21:01, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Typical American Centric nonsensical const6ructed history with a political agenda

message: The article has the following cost amounts:
#"having cost almost $500,000 (approximately $6,300,000 today)" done as plain text with an unknown date sometime in the past for "today"
#"The total cost was about $487,000, equivalent to $7,051,000 in 2018" calculated via  based on 1943 dollars
#"the final cost was almost $500,000 (approximately $6,400,000 today)" calculated via  based on 1946 dollars
Assuming $487,000 was rounded to $500,000 and acknowledging the problems of calculating 194x dollars as equivalent 2019 dollars, can anybody provide a consistent figure for today's cost?  Stepho  talk  08:12, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The CPI calculator gives $487,000 in 1944 US dollars as about $7,045,000 in 2019.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 18:21, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Cost 

message: The article states:
:Though the idea of a stored-program computer with combined memory for program and data was conceived during the development of ENIAC, it was not initially implemented in ENIAC because World War II priorities required the machine to be completed quickly, and ENIAC's 20 storage locations would be too small to hold data and programs
I'd be surprised if Turing was not aware of the value of combining program and data in the same memory well before WW2 (he sees no need in his original ACE proposal to spell out the value of computers being able to execute instructions they have calculated when he indicates his design makes it possible) and I guess that Zuse had also appreciated this before designing the Z3 (Zuse saw that compiling his Plankalkul was the kind of mechanical operation a souped-up Z3 could tackle). This quote should make clear who it was on the ENIAC team who had the stored-program idea we are talking about exactly. A source would be nice.
An annoying thing about the literature is how 'siloed' it seems to be: people who write about US computing machinery are generally distinct from those who write about the UK's, and then again about Zuse's work, and they use somewhat different language and emphases. I have some familiarity with the technical details of the ACE and Deuce and my reaction to reading about the US and German work is to ask questions like "in what way is it Turing complete?" (i.e., what does a translation from a standard TC-complete formalism to what the programmers input into the machine look like) and "how did the machine transform its input (e.g., Hollerith cards) into the internal electronic representation it worked with?"; this article's references do not indicate clearly which sources I should look at to get answers. I plan on providing better coverage for the ACE & Deuce machines, and with help from others, I think that Wikipedia could provide a well-grounded and cosmopolitan view.  — Charles Stewart (talk) 11:20, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Part of the reason for the siloed and incomplete history of British computing is that everything that happened at Bletchley Park was hidden by the official secrets law until something like 1975, and even then not everything came out.  The book Colossus edited by B. Jack Copeland is a must-read.  It probably will answer some of your questions.  He has also written a lot more on Turing.  Good idea to work on this in WP. Dicklyon (talk) 04:50, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

text: Ref 3 at Stored-program computer] says Presper and Eckert were well aware of the stored-program concept and advantages before the built ENIAC. Dicklyon (talk) 04:59, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

text: "I'd be surprised if Turing was not aware of the value of combining program and data in the same memory..."  Putting the program and data in the same memory is not the same as a stored program.  For instance, the Harvard architecture has data in memory but the program stored in different memory (which kind of makes better sense). Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 05:06, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Who had the idea of the stored-program computer? 

message: I was getting annoyed by the recent too-ing and fro-ing between "Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer" and "Electronic Numerical Integrator And Automatic Computer", so I went to the 1947 patent at https://patents.google.com/patent/US3120606A/en . It is listed there as "ELECTRONIC NUMERICAL INTEGRATOR AND COMPUTER".  Stepho  talk  03:00, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not like there are not two linked ref superscripts right after the name.  This falls into the category of obvious vandalism, although there are some who refuse to acknowledge that. Robert K S (talk) 03:53, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Sometimes it has to be made blatantly obvious.  Stepho  talk  04:13, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: You are correct  but the confusion has always been there. Back when I was doing my electronics training back in the late 70s, by which time I had worked on PDP-8, PDP-11, CDC 160 A and built my own EDUC-8, even some of the textbooks (not that there were many then!) included both "Analyzer" and "Automatic" with "Automatic" being the far more common of the two. The anonymous editor's edits today were certainly not vandalism, they were just misinformed/misguided. Jim Rowe, who designed the EDUC-8, had similar issues with people calling it the "E-DuCk-8". Fun times. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:53, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: While I don't have any knowledge about the particulars of this I can suggest that you consider a footnote to explain the discrepancy between the wording used. One example is how the infobox mention of Wendy/Walter Carlos is dealt with at the A Clockwork Orange (film) article. Just a suggestion mind if the WP:CONSENSUS is to leave things as they are that is fine as well. MarnetteD|Talk 14:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: Since the IPs aren't joining this thread you might ask for a WP:RFPP until they do. MarnetteD|Talk 14:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  The most recent book on it, the thoroughly researched ENIAC in Action, says "... Integrator And Computer" (page 1).  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 16:29, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  My two computer science textbooks from the 1970s plus Encyclopedia of Computer Science agree.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 17:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: I added a short hidden comment (visible only when editing) to the article saying "Official sources (eg, the US patent) have 'And' for the 'A'. Not 'Analyzer' or 'Automatic'." It probably wont stop every change but at least now we can say that they had to skip over something blatantly obvious when they changed it. I don't feel that it is worth cluttering up the reader visible article with explanations but I also won't stand in the way if others feel such an explanation is wanted. As suggested above, WP:RFPP page protection may help in the short term.  Stepho  talk  02:14, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text:  I'm leaning toward putting a footnote for the reader. Others may wonder about it, or it may conflict with what they've gotten from another source.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 04:28, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: The type of people that get confused by this sort of thing very rarely read footnotes. If you want to make it clear to all readers then it has to be inline with the main text.  Stepho  talk  04:31, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
replies: text: My experience from TV articles is that it's a losing battle but you always have to try. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:46, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Acronym 

message: Why are the names Kay McNulty, Betty Jennings, Betty Snyder, Marlyn Meltzer, Fran Bilas, and Ruth Lichterman not presented in alphabetical order? Simsong (talk) 18:16, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
thread_title: Order of the names

message: A source for "The Eniac did it in exactly fifteen seconds." T. R. Kennedy, Jr., "Electronic Computer Flashes Answers, May Speed Up Engineering," The New York Times, 15 February 1946, https://www.nytimes.com/1946/02/15/archives/electronic-computer-flashes-answers-may-speed-engineering-new.html and https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1946/02/15/93052340.pdf  Also from the story, "... a very difficult wartime problem... The Eniac completed the task in two hours."  This Times story is also cited in the Later developments section of the present article.  Dgorsline (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
thread_title:  Recent edit/revert to lede , "fifteen seconds" 

message: Cite 3, 4 and 11 links are dead (404 errors), there are way back machine archives, but im not sure how to go about implementing them: 
[3] https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.phy.ornl.gov/csep/ov/node10.html 
[4] https://web.archive.org/web/2021*/https://www.ushistory.org/more/eniac/public.htm 
[11] https://web.archive.org/web/2021*/https://www.ushistory.org/more/eniac/public.htm 
LuckyMiner01 | I'm new here, so if I make a mistake, please tell me, here, so I can learn from it. 16:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
replies: text: Look at reference 2 "The ENIAC story". It has archive-url and archive-date. Do the same thing for references 3,4 and 11. We will help out if you have trouble, so be bold! There is some documentation at ,  and .  Stepho  talk  21:07, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Dead Links 

message: There seems to be some confusion over the size of 1800 sq ft.  contends that the 1800 figure was derived from the physical dimensions of 3 ft x 8 ft x 100 ft. But those dimensions give 2400 cu ft, not 1800. The 1800 sq ft figure comes from the reference https://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL-e-h.html#ENIAC which states "Space occupied, Computer	1800 sq ft". I take this to be the floor space of the entire main room that the computer sits in, with maybe a hint that other spaces are used for air conditioning plants, power generating/conditioning plants, etc. Looking at the photos of that room, 1800 sq ft (about 42 feet x 42 feet) for that room looks reasonable.  Stepho  talk  02:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text: I'm working from memory here, but the main part consisted of 40 cabinets (not counting the function tables and periphials), I think they were 3 feet deep and 2.5 feet wide (I need to look that up).  That is about 300 square feet for the footprint of ENIAC.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 03:17, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

text: Page 92 of the book ENIAC by Scott McCartney gives a diagram of how ENIAC was laid out in the room, in a U shape.  The back wall held eight cabinets, and there were about 3.5 feet on each side, so the back wall was about 27 feet wide.  There were 16 cabinets along each side wall, so that makes 40 feet, but the diagram shows the card equipment extending beyond that, so the room is more than 50 feet long.  So that makes the room at least about 1400 square feet.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 03:50, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
replies: text:  Actually the room has to have been wider than that because they had to get to the back of the cabinets for servicing, so the room must have been at least 35x50, which is 1,750 square feet, which is in good agreement with the 1800 figure.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 05:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

text: Agreed. Although we should clarify that 1800 sqft is for the room rather than the machine itself.  Stepho  talk  00:07, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  1800 sq ft