Talk:Voiced palatal lateral approximant

message: I posted this on palatal nasal. The same thing applies on palatal lateral approximant in my opinion. The European Portuguese is a lʲ, not an ʎ, or maybe a postalveolar lateral.
Is it just me or the portuguese "nh" is not a palatal nasal but a palatalized alveolar nasal? By the way i'm changing the word anho, because i am a native european portuguese speaker and "anho" rarely used word. By the way, maybe portuguese language shouldnt even be here because i really think we have a palatalized alveolar nasal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raydred (talk • contribs) 23:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Palatal vs palatalized(In European Portuguese)

message: Serbocroatian/Slovenian lj/љ is palatalized ([), not palatal ([]) -- a rather small but still audible and consistent difference. (Think of it as a "stronger fusion" of /l/ and /j/ than [ʎ] is.) I bet the same holds for Slovak ľ (it does for Russian ль). Does someone know how ly is pronounced in those Hungarian dialects that haven't made [j] out of it?
David Marjanović 23:25 CET-summertime 2005/8/5
:Serbian љ is very clearly a palatal lateral (as audibly exemplified in the recorded samples of words such as ljuljaska linked at the article on letter lje), distinct from the palatalized alveolar lateral of Russian ль. As for Hungarian, the nowadays minoritary and non-standard Northern dialects that still keep "ly" distinct from "j" of course pronounce "ly" as a palatal lateral, which was the original sound of that digraph and the very reason for it (a completely analogous spelling to "ny" for the palatal nasal), before Hungarian adopted the yeísta pronunciation of the Budapest region as its standard. 213.37.6.23 (talk) 13:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: But isn't the palatal sound [ʎ] the one with the fusion stronger than the palatalized [lʲ] and not vice versa as you mentioned? --2.245.209.202 (talk) 23:57, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
replies: text:  It is. Sometimes  is used to transcribe what is actually  (be it palatal or alveolo-palatal), but AFAIK never the other way around. Peter238 (talk) 00:12, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
thread_title: Palatal vs palatalized

message: Does the palatal lateral approximant have a voiceless counterpart?  Do we not make Voiced _  / Voiceless _ pairs of pages?  I searched for "voiced palatal lateral approximant" and this was more than six down on the list. --ub3rm4th 19:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Voicing

message: Is there such thing as a palatal lateral fricative, anywhere in the world of languages?24.21.83.173 02:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Fricative

message: i am a native italian speaker, and from hearing spanish, i KNOW for a fact that the spanish 'll' sounds very different from the italian 'GLI', yet the article says both are ʎ. why then are they listed as the same sound?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.203.201 (talk) 22:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Not all Spanish dialects have this sound.  Some of them replace it with a sound that's similar to Italian gi.  This is what the note is talking about with the merger with .  Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: so, youre saying that in some dialects its ʎ and in some its something else? interesting.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.203.201 (talk) 00:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and it's a very well-known and extensively studied phonological phenomenon in modern Spanish, called yeísmo. Most current Spanish speakers are yeístas, i.e. they do not pronounce "ll" as a palatal lateral but as "something else" (what that something else is, varies from dialect to dialect: most commonly , but also  particularly in Rioplatense). However, there are still some areas and pockets of speakers that maintain the traditional distinction between Spanish "ll" and "y" (mainly Bolivians, Paraguayans, Filipinos, some mostly-older speakers from Northern Castile, some of the bilingual speakers of Spanish + Catalan/Basque, plus a few others here and there). Something like 99.9% of the Spanish heard nowadays on the media is yeísta (although there are a few notable media personalities that are not, such as Iñaki Gabilondo and Constantino Romero, but this is most likely to pass by unnoticed to the ears of yeístas), as well as the Spanish commonly heard in almost every major Spanish-speaking city (Madrid, Mexico DF, Buenos Aires, etc.; even in Spanish/Catalan-bilingual Barcelona yeísmo is already widespread when speaking Spanish, even when the same speaker will strictly keep "ll" as a palatal lateral when speaking Catalan because yeísmo is still strongly stigmatized in Catalan very unlike in Spanish). So no surprise the above Italian speaker was surprised to learn Spanish "ll" can be pronounced like Italian "gli" (and in fact this was the prescribed standard pronunciation until only a few decades ago, when the RAE finally lifted the academic stigma from yeísmo—not least because most or all RAE academics are nowadays yeístas themselves). 213.37.6.23 (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Accuracy dispute: italian vs spanish 

message: what evidence that the IPA symbol is in fact a "turned y" (as opposed to a mirrored λ -- after all it expresses an l sound)? The Unicode name doesn't count, since IPA predates Unicode, and the Unicode people made similar blunders before. This question has some importance for font design, since the intended application for "IPA palatal lataral approximant" should trump the Unicode character name. dab (𒁳) 11:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does it make a difference? It turns up the same! FilipeS 19:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

text: When I asked about it at the IPA talk page earlier, it was claimed it should be left out, due to lack of sources. (ʎ is similar both in appearance and sound value to λ, though.) 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 20:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: When I wrote "similar to", I didn't mean "the same as". 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 21:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

text: The reason for the name is that, before the days of computer fonts, people took existing type faces and rotated them to create new symbols. They already had a y, so that was easy to use. However, creating a mirror image of a letter meant casting new type, and expensive and time-consuming process. — kwami (talk) 17:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: "turned y"

message: The Savoy dialect of Arpitan  has this phoneme. Please add it.--Sonjaaa (talk) 11:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: It is not necessary to include every language that has the sound. Just a few examples. FilipeS (talk) 15:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Does that mean there are too many examples at close front unrounded vowel? Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text:  in my opinion, yes.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.204.91 (talk) 17:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Arpitan 

message: I'm commenting out the sound sample, after TheMexican2007 noticed it was wrong. It sounds like [j] to me. — kwami (talk) 17:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Okay then. The lateralness of it must be extremely faint, though. — kwami (talk) 19:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

text: kwami, you are right. The sound sample is clearly [jj], with no detectable lateral component. It is at best extremely misleading given the existence of phenomena like yeísmo. Acasson (talk) 14:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  removing sound sample 

message: Please correct Spanish example: it is incorrect or an outlier. As native speaker of Spanish, Russian and Italian, I know that (ru) любовь and (it) famiglia have no relation to either Castillian or South American pronunciation of 'millon'; A closer match would be 'familia'. [User 72.67.230.203, 10:16, 2008 May 22]
:This is a sourced example.  If Castillian millon is not a palatal lateral, what is it? — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 00:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In both Spain and Latin America, the palatal lateral is increasingly replaced with "y" ("yeismo").  The older sound does persist in some areas.  Kostaki mou (talk) 23:52, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Right, such as in Castillian Spanish. — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 03:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  erroneous languages (moved from article) 

message: This sound is used by many English speakers (including myself) in words like "million" or "w" (by those who do not pronounce them "mill-yun" or "double u").  Kostaki mou (talk) 04:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Do you have a source?  I'm skeptical.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 05:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Not off hand, though I know I have seen more than one.  I won't put it in the article itself until I find one.  (I'm only a native speaker and I know how I pronounce these words (and others like "William," "bilious" and "failure").  If you pay attention when you listen to others, I'm sure you'll hear the sound occasionally.  Kostaki mou (talk) 04:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Just the other day, I heard David Attenborough use it (in the word "million") in his narration of a film. Kostaki mou (talk) 03:50, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  English 

message: First of all thanks for all the work you guys put in these IPA articles. I save a lifetime worth of worktime!
I'd like to contribute the following observation:
The greek lowercase lambda is an upside-down lowercase y (tried it on transparent paper).
The IPA version of SAMPA [L] is NOT an upside-down lowercase y (if you turn it upside-down, the bow still points to the left, which is the wrong side), but much rather a upside-down mirror-inverted lowercase y. Doesn't make it easier, but saves time figuring out what is wrong with the definition...
Hope I could help!
'Rui Sousa'
79.30.201.216 (talk) 18:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: It's a 180* rotation of 'y'. This is because it's easy to rotate metal type to produce new letters for a printing press. — kwami (talk) 21:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Again with the upside-down "y" 

message: I'm removing european portuguese from the example list, as the digraph <LH> assumes another sound. JozePedro (talk) 23:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: What sound does it represent? Do you have a source? — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 04:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: He has probably listened to the voice clip, which is incorrect.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.210.125.90 (talk) 22:08, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Removing euro portuguese 

message: Should we make more about the distinction between a truly palatal lateral and an alveolopalatal one? We kind of have that at palatal nasal (with Polish and Japanese, which are marked as having alveolopalatal nasals), I believe I can find a source that says the palatal laterals of Italian and Catalan (and possibly other Romance languages) are alveolopalatal.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 07:21, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: I would assume yes. What exactly is the difference, dorsal vs. coronal? Do your sources also distinguish alveolopalatal from palatalized (post)alveolar, or is that what they define as alveolopalatal? — kwami (talk) 09:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title: Place of articulation

message: I am a native speaker of catalan and know what I am talking about. I might record a sound clip myself with the real palatal lateral approximant sound if somebody tells me how to do it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.210.118.9 (talk) 12:13, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: While it's not very likely that the sound clip is wrong (particularly as there is some phonetic variety amongst different languages), it would be neat if you made recording of a Catalan word with the palatal lateral like parallamps and we can then put it in the article's example table.   — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 22:56, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Actually he is right. I am a native Brazilian Portuguese speaker and the sound clip does not correspond, by no means, to the actual sound of [ʎ]. The sound clip resembles something closer to [j], a palatal central approximant, and not the intended palatal lateral approximant. The voice clip should be replaced by another one showcasing the correct sound. Krystoffer (talk) 03:47, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: How can I send you the recording? Do I have to sign up on Wikipedia?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.210.19.197 (talk) 14:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think you have to upload it using the "upload file" feature, though I don't know if you need to sign up to do it.  — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 20:45, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

text: I have no native ear for the phoneme, but I have done quite a bit of transcription (in a speech pathology class), and the current sound sounds identical to [j], so I'd really like to hear an upload from speakers here. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:03, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

text: I can vouch for the Norwegian example. The sound clip is not correct for our palatal L. Actually the sample from 2005 is better than the "correction" from 2006. --EvenT (talk) 22:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I must also agree with it sounding like [j]. --JorisvS (talk) 22:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

text: True, in fact the 2005 sample is right.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.210.100.224 (talk) 13:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

text: No. It is the same as the one in the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.210.125.90 (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

text: First of all, it would be much simpler for everyone if you registered. Of course it's the same as in the article before I am the one who uploaded it. The previous one was pretty much a /j/, mine isn't, obviously. It doesn't sound like the Spanish ll because most Spanish speakers pronounce ll as a /j/. TFighterPilot (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
thread_title: The sound clip in no way corresponds to the actual sound.

message: Created a separate article for this, and moved some of our examples there. I suspect that several others should be moved as well. — kwami (talk) 22:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
thread_title:  [[Alveolo-palatal lateral approximant]] 

message: Some Greeks use a palatal lateral approximant only for a lambda plus an "ee" vowel or diphthong followed by another vowel (which would probably be regarded as standard nowadays); some regularly pronounce a lambda followed by any "ee" sound in this manner.  Kostaki mou (talk) 04:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Arvaniti (2007a, p. 20) says it's postalveolar. See alveolo-palatal nasal#Bibliography. — Lfdder (talk) 08:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

text: Since there's no appropriate article for it, I've moved Greek to a new table 'Other'. — Lfdder (talk) 09:33, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: There are probably more languages with 'palatal' laterals that are in fact postalveolar. I'd say your current solution is good. --JorisvS (talk) 09:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  Modern Greek 

message: I'm tired of being accused of failed verification when it is just people that have a failed interpretation of things. Especially since it made good-quality sources seem unreliable to some of our leading Anglophone editors more than once, causing deleting of factually accurate information. In some cases the dialectal particularity is done quite clearly various times and just more limited n00b sources doesn't make the more controversial recent case (and certain kind used it, knowing not everyone reads/speaks huehuehuese to get things right, to almost scream LIAR! LIAR!), in others it would be best to just avoid varietal labels such as 'European' when they actually apply to >50% of the scope of Portuguese-speaking territory or population instead of ~4%, but then it wouldn't take place because I almost never make a decent case here and people probably think it is me trying to win the game so I'm just ignored (not by everyone, before folks think I'm a bitch ungrateful).
Well, whatever the drama, the source says that when people are first learning to produce a Brazilian palatal lateral, their first strategy is  (probably they meant , semivowel is allophone of the vowel in Portuguese), that then becomes  and the final outcome may be either the perfected  or the alternative . This perhaps would be observed for the palatal nasal too if Brazilian Portuguese didn't have, in a general term, its vocalization to a nasal palatal glide.
Obviously, with rural isolation, illiteracy, influence from foreign languages and more, Brazilian Portuguese would only be a lot less prescriptive-based than European Portuguese, and some of these communities eventually freeze their development of the phoneme production somewhere in the way, that indeed does become homophonous with the consonant + vowel cluster. A proof that what I am saying is true and known, is the widely reported process of simplification of  into  (a much bigger difference) in rural regions, especially the Northeast. Rapper Ouriço actually inserted this among his sources, that reported the very known pronunciation of Antônio as 'Antonho' (Tonho is actually nickname for Antônio in all of Brazil, instead of Tónio of Portugal).
Also, unlike the Portuguese, Brazilians may merge  not only with  but also with individual  or  to the exception of few words for each, so it doesn't make sense to assume that this merger is non-existant or unheard of. It wouldn't make sense, even because of assimilation, especially the close palatal vowel that makes about half of the consonant repertory of Portuguese come with a different flavor in Brazil, be it palatalization or velarization. Lguipontes (talk) 07:58, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I didn't claim it was a failed verification; it was an incomplete citation not in style with the rest. I didn't remove any of the things you added. Our source says it's alveolo-palatal in European Portuguese, no word on other varieties, hence my edit. I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say, honestly. — Lfdder (talk) 08:18, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: I am actually thankful for your addition! I didn't saw you edited it immediately after me. I didn't mean that to you, and this is a long story. The removal of BP from the alveolo-palatal list, and subsequently its lack in this one, was prompted by a talk in the old alveolo-palatal talk from a Portuguese user that said that there indeed was /lj/ vs. /ʎ/ contrast in his variety of Portuguese, and then I took the subsequent comments thanking him as a subtle "another example of that behavior from him (I mean me), thanks for reporting"; this is poor argument now that we have a page dedicated for all those cases of postalveolar laterals, and certainly the Brazilian cluster may have one of these pronunciations. The argument that 'there should be only one example per language' doesn't make sense, as we have dialect/variant/register specifying in the tables exactly for that reason (different usage in different language variants) and contrary to the perception of the Portuguese user (again another Portuguese speaker making me look like a person misusing a source to deliberately insert OR when it is not the case! In this one, at least, it wasn't made in a deliberate manner by the part of the contestant), it is indeed properly sourced. Lguipontes (talk) 08:40, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
replies: text: Fair enough. I must've missed a few episodes. It does look like they deserve to be separate. — Lfdder (talk) 09:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
thread_title:  What that source on BP meant 

message: The sound clip is just a regular Voiced palatal approximant. 88.241.80.192 (talk) 16:11, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
thread_title:  This sound sample sounds nothing like what it claims to be.