Talk:Munster Irish

message: A great deal of work needs to be done on this article as there are some inaccuracies in the text, for example the claim that "bh" or "mh" are pronounced as [v] in initial position and not as [w] even though both pronunciations exist in the spoken language of the remaining Gaeltachtaí in the said position. Unfortunately, I don't get much time these days to edit but I will try to do a little bit each day.
:That would be great! Keep in mind, however, that whatever we write here has to be backed up with reliable sources that are cited so that the information can be verified. I've described the West Muskerry dialect as it's given in Ó Cuív's book; if other things are true in other parts of Munster, be sure to cite sources for additional information. I'm afraid it's not allowed to state things in Wikipedia articles based only one's own personal experience without published sources to back it up. User:Angr 13:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
replies: text: In addition to the works you listed above, there's also Phonétique d'un parler irlandais de Kerry and Description d'un parler irlandais de Kerry by M. L. Sjoestedt(-Jonval), which I have photocopies of. And of course it would be great to have both East Munster and West Munster discussed in the article. The only reason I stuck to Ó Cuív's book originally is that I didn't have a lot of time and wanted to get something coherent and more or less cohesive down. User:Angr 14:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

text: She died in 1940, meaning the works will enter the public domain on 2011-01-01. Once that happens I'll see about putting them up at Wikisource. Hope you can wait five more years! As for "making blanket statements about Munster Irish which are often at best half true", I have the advantage that I didn't grow up in Ireland, so I don't even know what stereotypes there are. All I know about Munster (or any other dialect; I also wrote Connacht Irish and Ulster Irish) I got from reliable linguistically oriented books! User:Angr 15:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
thread_title: Untitled

message: in aon chur (Corca Dhuibhne, West Muskerry, Waterford) or ar aon chor (Clear Island, West Carberry) "at any rate" (other dialects ar chor ar bith (Connacht) and ar scor ar bith (Ulster)
Ar chor ar bith means "at all" in Connacht (at least Connemara) Irish.  Ar aon chaoi means "at any rate." That being the case, I imagine that ar scor ar bith must also be incorrect. ColmCille (talk) 07:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  A small error 

message: Is Munster Irish the basis for the caighdeán? GeneralBelly (talk) 18:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Not really. The caighdeán attempts to be as pan-dialectal as possible: if a feature is present in two of the three dialects and absent in the third, the caighdeán will usually take it. As a result, the caighdeán often gives the impression of being based on Connacht Irish, because there are many features that Connacht and Munster share as opposed to Ulster, and many features that Connacht and Ulster share as opposed to Munster, but not too many that Munster and Ulster share as opposed to Connacht. —Angr 18:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Hmm. That doesn't seem to be true. The caighdeán is not as pan-dialectal as possible, although the Dublin government may make that claim. In fact there appears little systematic logic to the CO in the forms it chose. It claims they were pan-dialectal, but often ignored forms chosen in 2 of 3 dialects (eg the absolute form of feicim, or the relative form of the verb, or t-prefixation after sa in the dative singular--in all of these cases 2 of 3 dialects concurred but were rejected by the CO anyway). It would be truer to say that it is based on Connacht, with noun morphology largely from Munster, and then with very few overt nods to Ulster. Why would they reject forms shared by Munster and Ulster and that were historically correct as shown by 17th and 18th century literature? The reason would probably be a) to choose the simplest forms, and b) because Connacht has the majority of native speakers. So the claim that the CO is pan-dialectal and based on a kind of dialectal vote is false. It is not based on historical views on what was correct grammar either. It does not always choose the simplest forms (otherwise why have a vocative case that is hardly used?). Neither does it clearly establish one real dialect as a standard. Rather, it mixes these four elements together in a confused and ill-thought-out way. Djwebb1969 (talk) 05:39, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  An Caighdeán Oifigiúil 

message: Peadar Ua Laoghaire's comment that Séadna was specifically written to show the correct Irish was made in the text of Mo Sgéal Féin, but I don't think it is in the first 8 chapters transcribed on Wikisource, but later in the book. I will nail down the exact reference some time. As for verb morphology - most of those forms in the chart are long gone. Ní dhearnag? Bheirim? Time for a prune - and you can state Stair na Gaeilge as the reference for a prune.Djwebb1969 (talk) 05:42, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Some comments 

message: Someone has edited to say there is no epenthetic vowel in Aibreán/Abrán. I can't work out from the page edits who is responsible for this assertion. The Irish of West Muskerry , paragraph 234, says there is an epenthetic vowel, and the phonology section of the article on Munster Irish is specifically sourced to IWM. IWM is Cork Irish. The book Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne paragraph 27 says there can either be or not be an epenthetic vowel in Kerry Irish - speaker 1 in that book has no epenthetic vowel, but speaker 9 (a man born on the Great Blasket before 1920) has an epenthetic vowel. Should the section be edited to make clear that the assertion is at variance with IWM? I have edited the page to put Gaeilge Chorca Duibhne in the references, by the way.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.123.211 (talk) 17:32, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Aibreán and epenthetic vowels 

message: From the article: "One significant syntactic difference between Munster and other dialects is that in Munster, go ("that") is used instead of a as the indirect relative particle".
East Munster (Rinn Ua gCuanach) uses "a" here.Murchadh (talk) 19:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Indirect rel. particle 

message: While I'm a native of Waterford myself, I don't actually know what the correct spelling for Gaeilinn/Gaoluinn/Gaelainn is in Waterford. The article states that "Gaeilinn" is the correct spelling, but I often see "Gaoluinn" used, including on the Waterford Gaeltacht website (Deise.ie). I know there is no standard form for "Gaelainn/Gaeilinn/Gaoluinn" - But does anyone have a reference for "Gaeilinn" for Waterford? Dornálaíocht (talk) 13:08, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
replies: text: Not directly, but Breatnach (1947) says the word has a slender l in Waterford ( or in his system ), which is better represented by Gaeilinn than by Gaelainn or Gaoluinn. —Angr (talk) 13:32, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gaoluinn / Gaeilinn