Talk:Capital Airlines (United States)

message: Milt was my flight instructor. Great guy, earned the respect of everyone he met. Finding a detailed account of his death here makes me  uneasy, more than just a bit. If the article were dedicated to his last flight, I could understand it. Then, the article would have been on point, even if on an odd point. 
But in an article dedicated to Capital Airlines? A brief remark stating that Milt, the last caretaker of the Capital Airlines brand, passed away during a business flight is all you need. Beyond that remark, the article becomes more about Milt than about Capital. I am not suggesting censorship, of course. Open information sharing is important, and we should tolerate no matter the circumstance. But if we include so much detail about Milt's death, perhaps the article should not be named "Capital Airlines" after all.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.124.16 (talk) 15:58, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
thread_title: Milt Marshall

message: I was in error to claim that UAL Headquarters was at DEN. UAL was headquartered at MDW.
My error was to depend on memory. The United Flight Training Center (DENTK) was located in Denver. 
Mark Lincoln (talk) 18:03, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  UAL HQ in 1961 

message: In 1956 Capital ordered Britannias. The prototype 300 was painted in Capital Airlines livery when it crashed. A web search for Britannia G-ANCA will reveal many publicity photos of the aircraft in Capital markings. A color photograph of G-ANCA is on Gary Basele's Capital Airlines Virtual Museum at http://www.baesel.net/cap1.htm
Mark Lincoln (talk) 00:26, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capital & the Britannia 

message: I changed the name because the scope of the section exceeds Capital's "last decade" which started in July 1951 and ended in June 1961.
PCA received 6 DC-3s before the end if 1939 but the first scheduled DC-3 flight did not happen until 2 January 1940.
Mark Lincoln (talk) 01:50, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Section name change 

message: The request for a citation to document the change in livery and logo when PCA changed it's name is curious. In the section below it exact figures were given for the prices of "Nighthawk" coach fares. This begged for citation. Having done an extensive search for a source I was only able to come up with the source I cited.
In the case of the change of livery & logo when the name changed from Pennsylvania-Central Airlines, extant photos show Pennsylvania Central Airlines livery (with the words "The Capital Airlines" painted above the windows) on photos of PCA airplanes. There was a period when the basic PCA livery (with logos replaced) and the name "Capital Airlines" (not The Capital Airlines over the windows) (Baptie, pg 32). Later photos of Capital Airlines airplanes show an entirely different livery (the Eagle). There is no citation needed. The fact is prima facie. All photos of Capital airliners and all excitant brochures, timetables and advertising of Capital Airlines, prove that the livery and logo changed. No citation is necessary.
Ask, always, your questions carefully. But always question everything.
I have not been been able to find any source which explains why Capital Airlines reverted to Clifford Ball's "path of the Eagle" slogan for it's new logo and livery. That is a question which begs a citation. It is also a question which would provide no essential information to the history of PCA/Capital Airlines. Perhaps if we were writing a book it would be worthy of pursuit, but for this article's purpose it is unessential.
I am a champion of citing sources for facts claimed in Wikipedia pages. I do so to a degree which might raise the question of whether I indulge in "over citationing."
I believe that a Wikipedia page should be able to satisfy the interests of a person seeking basic understanding of the subject. I also believe that the article should provide sufficient citations and external links to give the seriously curious person, or researcher, the necessary information to easily pursue further research.
I was a student of aeronautical engineering until the end of the Apollo program and the winding down of the Vietnam War led to a glut of unemployed aeronautical engineers. That led me to fall back on my minor which was history. I never worked in either field, instead pursuing business in a rapidly developing field of technology. My major and minor both served me well in those efforts.
The Wikipedia is a curious endeavor. It seeks to achieve encyclopedia style articles upon a very wide number of subjects. The subjects being decided by, and executed by, it's "editors." Those editors might be almost anyone. Thus the rules of what is acceptable are strict, but when carefully read, allow for judgement and evaluation, of sources and assertions. This is necessary to weed out the casual hobbyists, fanatics, conspiracy theorists and outright tinfoil hat wearing nut cases. The rules should not exclude sources, which upon inspection, are valid sources of historical information.
In aviation history we encounter few of such "enthusiasts" and may evaluate sources on pragmatic grounds. There are still subjects such as TWA 800, AA587 and Amelia Earhart's disappearance, where passionate true believers remain a distinct problem.
We must also asses requests for citation. The need for support may be prima facie, or it may be caused by insufficient background, knowledge  or understanding by the editor who believed support was necessary. 
Anyone who follows my edits - even on this page - will understand that I even question my own edits. When fact checking shows I was wrong, I have reversed myself.
In writing history we must endeavor to produce the best approximation of the truth that the extant record provides.
Sometimes I have personal knowledge which is contrary to the "extant" record. For example I am in contact with former Capital employees and my father started his career as an airline pilot flying for Capital Airlines (stationed only at ORF, flying DC-3s and Viscounts), after the merger he went on to fly Viscounts, DC-6s, DC-7s, Boeing 727s & 747s (out of EWR,  LGA, MIA and ORD) for United. He ending his career as a 727 captain). Thus, in real time, I was/are privy to much undocumented information. I personally have known persons mentioned in airlines histories, accident reports and heard stories about them. Such knowledge cannot be cited as a "source."
For example there are extant records of the legendary Trow Sebree. Sebree flew for Clifford Ball, Pennsylvania, PCA, Capital & United. At one time he was a district manager for PCA (see Air Line to Train Veterans, NY Times 23 July 1946), a source I could cite on Wikipedia.
Or consider that a first cover signed by him that went for $179.99 on e-bay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/TROW-SEBREE-AIR-MAIL-PILOT-SIGNED-1929-MAIL-CARD-PITTSBURGH-CLEVELAND-AIRMAIL-/271442314389), which cannot be use as a source. Trow Sebree survived to attend Capital Airlines Association picnics at the end of the last century (http://baesel.net/cap1.htm).
I cannot cite Gary Basel's Capital Airlines Virtual Museumas a source on Wikipedia for several reasons (even though he was a Capital/United employee). Some prior editor did include it as an external link. I could use some of his exhibits for citation.
Look at the picture of Trow at http://baesel.net/cap1.htm. Read the unacceptable sources of commentary at http://baesel.net/caalumni.htm . Evaluate the unusable information revealed. What, even if it is unusable as a source, does it reveal about Capital Airlines? Please visit Gary's Virtual Museum to get a feel about what Charles Baptie (PCA/Capital's photographer) called the "Capital Spirit" and "Capital Family." I have met, knew of, been in the presence of, or heard tales about some persons in the photo on page 39 of Baptie's book (Trow Sebree is pilot no. 7 in the advertising photo). I remember when, in operations at ORF, my little brother blurted out something my father had told my mother about Doug Mason (no. 47). It might have hurt the career of a very junior copilot but Mason let it slide. 
I have tried to provide reliable sources and information in my expansion and documentation of this article. In editing Wikipedia we must always be careful in our use of sources. We also must be careful to question what must be questioned and not to wast effort in questioning the obvious.
I cannot use my flights in Capital Airlines DC-4, Lockheed 049, DC-6Bs or Viscounts, or my personal knowledge from a myrid of relevant experiences and personal contacts because I am not an author published by a third party.
I could cite an anonymous article published in a disreputable magazine. Go figure.
We must always try to do our best within the rules and with sound judgement applied.
Mark Lincoln (talk) 06:07, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
replies: text: A Capital Airlines 1955 promo film on the Viscount on YouTube here:   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.74 (talk) 16:51, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  What needs to have a citation provided. What is a source? 

message: The data given in the original edit was greatly in error.
Captain Hull's sighting occurred in 1956, not 1952. Capital had no Viscounts in 1952. Hull's sighting was over Alabama, not Washington National Airport (DCA). The Capital pilot who did report a sighting in the Washington UFO Incident  was S.C. Pierman and he was holding short of a runway in a DC-4, not flying. The date of that report was 19 July 1952.
I believe the two incidents were conflated in Donald Keyhoe's book Flying Saucers Top Secret.
The person who did the original UFO sighting edit didn't bother to read the report he cited. If he had the errors would not have been made.
I go to this length because in my experience people interested in UFOs are often fanatics who take umbrage at any opinions which diverge from their own. Thus I want my edit to be well documented.
btw: after reading Flying Saucers Top Secret in the early 60s I was talking with my father, who was a Capital Viscount pilot. I tried to use Hull as an argument that UFOs were real. Dad knew Hull, who was a very respected pilot. Dad said that if a UFO pulled up beside his airplane and the occupants waved he would not report it.
ps. Hull was once flying in a DC-3 as check pilot/instructor. One of the pilots being checked managed to pull an aileron off in a bungled maneuver. Hull took over and made a safe landing.
Mark Lincoln (talk) 19:09, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Capital Airlines & UFO reports. 

message: It is impossible to understand US airlines history from 1938 to 1985 without understanding the role of the Civil Aeronautics Board.
The  CAB dominated the existence of US airlines between 1938 and 1985 when the industry was finally deregulated (see Airline Deregulation Act of 1978). The CAB had the power to decide if an airlines met a public need and thus needed to exist. It awarded routes, allowed or denied route expansion or reduction, enforced conditions of service over those routes, managed competition, set fares, awarded subsidies, permitted (or more often denied) airline mergers, and prior to 1958 the CAB supervised airline safety. From 1967 on the CAB was no longer responsible for investigating airline accidents. 
The CAB had the power to force airlines to serve even unprofitable cities along their designated routes.
The beginning of regulation of US airlines started with the Airmail Act of 1925 (Kelly Act).http://postalmuseum.si.edu/airmail/airmail/public/airmail_public_postal_long.html This authorized the Post Office to award airmail contracts to airlines (prior to the Kelly Act the Post Office ran the airmail service).
The first awards were called Contract Air Mail routes. Clifford Ball Airlines was awarded CAM-11 (21 April 1927). It provided for service between Pittsburgh PA and Cleveland OH. Service to Youngstown OH and McKeesport PA was also included.http://www.aerodacious.com/ccCAM011.HTM CAM-11 was eventually expanded to include Akron OH & Washington DC (1931), Norfolk VA.(1938) and Baltimore MD (1943).
The first flights of CAM-11E10 & CAM-11E10F (Washington DC) were flown by J.H. "Slim" Charmichael who was President of Capital in the 1950s when fatal decisions were made. |title=J.H. Carmichael Ran Airlines |publisher=New York Times |date=2 December 1983 |accessdate=30 November 2015 |url=http://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/02/obituaries/jh-carmichael-ran-airline.html The first flights of  CAM-11E14 & CAM-11S13 (Pittsburgh - Baltimore) were flown by W. Clyde Paddock who was the Captain of Capital Airlines Flight 75 which disintegrated over Chase Maryland in 1959.
After 1936 new awards were designated Air Mail (AM) routes.http://www.aerodacious.com/CAM.HTM One crucial AM award to PCA was AM-34 (8 Oct. 1937) which was from Washington D.C. to Buffalo NY, but serviced Baltimore MD, Williamsport PA and Harrisburg PA as well. (Do not confuse it with CAM-34 which was TWA, NYC to Los Angeles CA). In 1945 AM-34 was expanded to include service to Corning NY, Elmira NY and Rochester NY. Then in 1949 Capital had AM-34 expanded to include Reading PA and Philadelphia PA.
There was also AM-46. Awarded to PCA on 15 Oct. 1940. The route awarded was Buffalo NY to Pittsburgh PA, via Erie PA.http://www.aerodacious.com/ccAM046.HTM
AM-34 and AM-46 were the basis of the service nicknamed "around the horn" by Capital Pilots.Lemmon, Captain R.A. "Ray", Not Flying Alone, 2015, AuthorHouse, Bloomington, Indiana, , page 141
Another service was based on AM-51 (PCA November 1940) which was known as "Tobacco Road." At first from Norfolk VA to Knoxville TN via Rocky Mount NC, Raleigh NC and Greensboro NC. Later the same year Hickory NC was added. 1941 saw  Ashville NC included. In 1945 AM-51 was expanded to Elizabeth City NC, and in 1947 AM-51 expanded to Washington DC, Winston-Salem NC, Chattangooga TN, Memphis TN, Richmond VA, Charlotte NC, and Huntsville AL.
Are you understanding why Capital had a system composed of many very short segments, and thus found it hard to make money? Airplanes make money flying, not taking off, landing or sitting on the ground loading and unloading. One Capital segment was between Norfolk and Newport News which was the other side of Hampton Roads. The flight was so short that often the landing gear was not retracted.
AM-51 was eventually extended to include Norfolk to Atlanta (1955), Cleveland to Miami (1958, and various locations in Florida in 1959.http://www.aerodacious.com/ccAM051.HTM These awards gave Capital some long distance (money making) routes. Especially access to Florida (big money in the winter). (Capital's first routing to MIA was via a CAB approved Capital/National Interchange Agreement which allowed each airlines to better utilize their equipment during their "off" season). It was Capital's Florida routes that UAL coveted.
Do not entertain any "conspiracy theory" involving a CAB plot to "get" Capital. The CAB awarded routes, oversaw service to cities, set fares, gave subsidies and improved competition. Always with intent to keep the public happy, airlines healthy and cities well served. For example, Capital was given a route award to Minneapolis-St. Paul to increase competition with Northwest which dominated service to those cities.Lemmon, Captain R.A. "Ray", Not Flying Alone, 2015, AuthorHouse, Bloomington, Indiana, , page 127
When UAL merged with Capital it assumed servicing the routes Capital had. In June 1961 Capital was still operating 3 DC-3s "around the horn" (AM-34).
Trying to get a route award, expand a route, or terminate service to a city required petitioning the CAB, holding hearings on the matter, and an eventual ruling. That is why UAL ended up flying DC-3s in 1961-1962.
Mark Lincoln (talk) 20:06, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Civil Aeronautics Board and US Airlines (particularly Clifford Ball/PCA/CAL) 

message: I created a section for the merger. The merger started in summer 1960, was consummated in the summer of 1961 and had consequences that took years to resolve. It needs to be treated with a separate section.
I also think that Milt Marshall's "Capital Airlines" is distinctly different  from THE Capital Airlines. It has nothing to do with the history of CAL besides one man and a name.
I question whether it should even be a part of the Capital Airlines Wikipedia article. It is covered on Gary Baesel's Capital Airlines Virtual Museum. http://www.baesel.net/cap1.htm. Basel's site is not an effort of history. It is in part about and for the people of CAL, and Marshall was one of those people.
Would anyone suggest that we should have a Phish festivals section just because the first one was named for Clifford Ball?
Mark Lincoln (talk) 21:43, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The Merger & New Capital Airlines Sections 

message: "Flight training (at Capital) began with flying old #210, a cargo version that was used primarily for transporting engines and other outsized materials to stations on the Capital system."Lemmon, Captain R.A. "Ray", Not Flying Alone, 2015, AuthorHouse, Bloomington, Indiana, , page 110
As far as the CAA was concerned any C-47/C-53 conversion not performed by Douglas remained listed as it's original designation (that went or the DC-4 as well)
The Capital DC-3 fleet was composed of:
DOUGLAS DC-3 / C-47 Family
N12919                                          /        /
N16012  Super     43193       542             09/50    04/52
N16016  Super     43192       541             08/50    04/52
N16019  Super     43191       540             07/50    04/52
N18620  C-53      4886        211B            08/49    09/60
N19915  C-53-DO   7347        212C            08/49    07/61 C/L ELMIRA
N19917  C-53-DO   7320        213C            08/49    07/61 C/L ASHEVILLE
N21781  DC3-313   2169        214C            04/48    07/61 ex PCA; C/L DETROIT
N21782  DC3-313   2170        215B            04/48    07/61 ex PCA; C/L TRAVERSE CITY
N21783  DC3-313   2171        216B            04/48    07/61 ex PCA; C/L BAY CITY
N21784  DC3-313   2172        217B            04/48    07/61 ex PCA; C/L ROCKY MOUNT
N21785  DC3-313   2173        218C            04/48    03/54 ex PCA; C/L VIRGINIA BEACH
N21788  DC3-                  219B              /        /  C/L Nxxxxxxxxx
N21790  DC3-313   2189        220B            04/48    07/61 ex PCA; C/L LANSING
N25689  DC3-313C  4099        221B            04/48    08/59 ex PCA; C/L MEMPHIS
N25691  DC3-313A  2256        222             04/48 12/12/49 WO Potomac River, Washington D.C.
N25694  DC3-313A  2272        223B            04/48    10/59 ex PCA; C/L GRAND RAPIDS
N25695  DC3-313B  4081        224C            04/48    10/59 ex PCA; C/L HUNTSVILLE
N25696  DC3-313B  4082        225C            04/48      /56 ex PCA
N28324  DC3-277C  2254        243C            05/50 08/02/59 C/L SAULT STE. MARIE; WO Minneapolis, MN
N28360  C-49E     2271        235C            05/50    07/61
N33677  DC3-313D  4132        226B            04/48      /56 ex PCA
N33678  DC3-313D  4133        227C            04/48    08/59 ex PCA; C/L MORGANTOWN
N44993  DC3-454   6260        228C            04/48 08/26/59 ex PCA; WO Charleston, WV
N45338  C-53D-DO  11778       229C            04/48    07/61 ex PCA
N45366  C-53D-DO  11757       230C            04/48    02/59 ex PCA; C/L TOLEDO
N45373  DC3-455   6324        231B            04/48    07/61 ex PCA
N45379  C-53D-DO  11776       232C            04/48    07/61 ex PCA; C/L RALEIGH/DURHAM (HICKORY)
N49553  C-53      4820        233C            04/48    05/54 ex PCA; C/L CORNING
N60705  C-47-DL   4638        112             04/48      /   ex PCA
N88835                        110               /        /           C/L PITTSBURGH
Mark Lincoln (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  Yes, it WAS a C-47A 

message: Slim Charmichale's response, to lead not follow, was a harbinger of his bold gamble in the mid-1950s. To understand what happened to Capital in the 50s one must have some understanding of Charmichael's approach to management and the fact it had worked to save PCA.
Note also, that a logo/livery change occurred in each crisis. 
Mark Lincoln (talk) 21:51, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
thread_title:  The financial crisis of 1947 

message: Viscount N7404 c/n 90 was not damaged "beyond economical repair." It was very badly damaged but was shipped back to Hurn Airport, Bournemouth, Hampshire, England and rebuilt as c/n 301, CF-THJ a V.757 for TCA – Trans-Canada Air Lines.
http://www.vickersviscount.net/Pages_Listings/Listings_Owner.aspx
Mark Lincoln (talk) 11:59, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
thread_title:  Not damaged beyond economical repair 

message: There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Beijing Capital Airlines which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 03:01, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
thread_title:  Move discussion in progress