Talk:Enfield Automotive/Archive 1

message: No sources cited, not verified, possible copy-and-paste and/or original research. This article needs major work. Realkyhick 16:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

message: Please don't take me wrong, I am thrilled that Mr. Adraktas has stepped in, providing exciting information about the Enfield venture. Actually, it is cases like this that make Wikipedia an absolutely amazing source of knowledge. I have a few comments, though:
1. The article "sounds" like expressing personal emotions/experiences in a way that it undermines its encyclopedic nature. Certainly, I could expess some arguments on some of the issues raised - I know Mr. Georgios Michael (a car designer) who was involved in the whole affair. In this stage, though, I would rather not start another thread, especially since there are some "gray areas".
2. One think that bothers me is the way Greece is treated in the context of supporting one argument or another. We should be more careful, especially in a medium like Wikipedia. I can't help sensing a trace of "Greece-bashing", a popular sport among us Greeks.
I do agree, though, that altogether this discussion can lead to an extremely informative article.  Skartsis 20:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Arguments expressed in the article 

message: Realkyhick, thank you for returning my Gallery of Images
Two Images are missing, however, and one of them is Lord Rothschild's letter ! Constantine Adraktas 07:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: '''Missing Images'''

message: Enfield Automotive was created in the United Kingdom in the 60s. Prior to the Enfield 8000 Electric City Car ( known as the E8000ECC ), Enfield Automotive developed Electric Passenger Vehicles of un - acceptable performance and safety standards, according to the Electricity Council and MIRA, with bodies made of Fibreglass and ABS plastic ( the Enfield 465 ).
This contribution is based on:
( A ) The original of the Electricity Council – Enfield Automotive contract, negotiated and signed in January 1973 by the 1969 to 1975 Chairman cum Managing and Technical Director of Enfield Automotive, after the E8000ECC passed rigorous tests at MIRA (the Motor Industry Research Association) including crash ((to see a live crash test go to BBC in the Internet, search for Reva Electric Car and you will see a link for a relevant video) and pave test(s, was aerodynamically tested in Farnborough and was driven around Chester for five days by relevant Electricity Council Research Center (ECRC) members.
Following the signing of the above mentioned contract, the E8000ECC was driven around London by Lord Rothschild, Head of the Think Tank of the British Government's Cabinet Office and was graciously commended, in writing, by him personally.
( B ) Articles from the United Kingdom and International press ( Financial Times, The London Times, Time magazine, the London Evening Standard etc ).
( C ) Copies of some of the Enfield Automotive files, in the possession of its 1969 - 1975 Chairman.
Enfield Automotive and the E8000ECC were moved away from the United Kingdom to the Greek island of Syros during the oil crisis 'of 1973. There was "no obvious" business reason to have them move away from the United Kingdom, a car producing country ,which had, also, supplied Enfield Automotive and the E8000ECC with a unique start up contract, to Greece, a country without a car production infrastructure whatsoever (see below paragraph starting with "Then came the Oil crisis of 1972 ... ".
The E8000ECC could have been produced in the UK or any other country with advance Motor Industry infrastructure, like the USA , with a genuine "Greek island experiment" on the side, if the financier was keen and sincere to put Greece on the Electric Car producing countries map.
The key characteristics of the E8000ECC were:
( 1 ) The range of the E8000ECC was between 50 to 90 miles, depending on the number of stops and starts, terrain gradients, number of passengers, batteries condition etc.
The E8000ECC with License plate number VDL 856K has been driven in London (between Mayfair and the City, visiting friends, going to the theatre and to restaurants etc – every aspect of a daily life routine) for four consecutive years and its range was logged daily. The practical range of the E8000ECC was substantially greater than the one quoted above, if it were “plugged in” during the day, anywhere one would park and a simple electricity socket was available , as the car had a built – in on - board charger.If the E8000ECC was still alive today, it would enjoy two important benefits the current Mayor of London,Mr.Livingstone, has given to Electric Cars:
( a ) Charging sockets on Parking Meters.
( b ) No Levy for entering into Central London ( applicable to Internal Combustion Engine cars).
( 2 ) The top speed of the E8000ECC was between 70mph and 80mph , depending on the number of passengers and the condition of the batteries.
A speed of over 60mph was achieved by Lord Weinstock, the creator and Chairman of GEC (General Electric Company, UK), as he was attempting to get a speeding ticket for the E8000ECC, in Park Lane, Mayfair, London. A police car accosted him with the policemen looking in curiously, as the E8000ECC was silent as well. No speeding ticket was issued!
( 3 ) The Enfield 8000 was a 2 + 2 seater car, for 2 people in the front individual seats and 2 more on the bench seat at the back.
( 4 ) The "Bikini" was an E8000ECC with a body composed of simple and flat panels. It was never "crash tested", hence it could not obtain a certificate of "road worthiness".
Furthermore the Bikini did not have a range of 120 to 140 Kilometres, that is 75 to 87 Miles, as the Commercial brochure posted claims.
( a ) If the above were true then the Enfield 8000 would have had a much higher range than 75 to 87 Miles, as having a by far lower Aerodynamic coefficient (hence more efficient use of the batteries capacity) than that of the Bikini.
( b ) The text, however, adjacent to the Commercial brochure, states that the range of the Enfield 8000 was less than half of that for the Bikini, namely, between 35 and 40 Miles!
( 5 ) The reason for the elimination of the Enfield 8000 (the E8000ECC's various versions were based , simply, on different bodies added to the same chassis and all other components and systems – all developed in the UK) is not that “no permit was issued for its mass production, due to tax categorization issues connected with its electric power”, for it to having been produced in Syros, Greece.
Those were the days of the Greek Military Junta which was very keen to issue any permits whatsoever that would give them worldwide visibility, like the first ever mass production of an Electric Car in the World. Furthermore the Junta was very close to the London based Greek owners of Enfield Automotive, Enfield - Neorion, Neorion and N.J.Goulandris, the latter being the source for all the other companies. As a matter of fact, one of the top Greek Junta members, Mr.Constandopoulos, became the Managing Director of Enfield - Neorion.
Moreover:The E8000ECC had passed all the necessary tests for production in the United Kingdom and was on its way to be produced in the United States of America. The latter courtesy of President Reagan, then Governor of California, who sent a cargo plane to have three E8000ECCs be moved to California in support of his Clean Air legislation.Prior to the 1973 Oil crisis, the Oil companies, supported by the Ca,r companies were doing their best to have the E8000ECC eliminated. Especially after the Electricity Council – Enfield Automotive contract was signed in January 1973 and that contract was followed by many other contracts around the world (example: from Lead producers in Australia, from a new town developer in Catalina, California etc ).
Prior to the Oil crisis of 1973, the Chairman of Enfield Automotive and Aristotle Onassis, still owner of Olympic Airways, were ready to conclude a very interesting deal. A company with the name of OLYMPIC - ENFIELD were to be formed to:
( a ) Use the E8000ECC and its Summer version (not the Bikini) in the airports OA was operating in.
( b ) Rent out both cars above, firstly to OA clients and, then, to the general pyblic.
Then came the Oil crisis of 1973 which, in a very short period, saw that a “parking lot” of Tankers stretched from the port of Piraeus to the Isthmus of Corinth. At that point the Enfield 8000 moved away from a “car producing – car components producing – relevant labor availability” country (UK) to a Greek island with none of the above but an unstable shipyard owned by the Enfield Automotive financier. None of the 60 Tankers, owned by the parent company of Enfield Automotive, joined the above mentioned “parking lot”. The Enfield 8000 was removed from UK and not only.
Numerous attempts to have the design and Enfield Automotive/Enfield – Neorion bought, so that the car can move on to mass production, were ignored, not even examined.. One of the offers was from the United States of America! So the Oil and Car lobby versus the Enfield 8000 confrontation was won by the said lobby. A confrontation on the lines of the film "Who killed the Electric Car?".(www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/electric.html)
After a few years and once the Enfield 8000 was unceremoniously buried in Syros and the Greek Military Junta collapsed, the 1969 to 1975 Chairman of Enfield Automotive met with Constantine Caramanlis, the Greek Prime Minister to discuss ways of resurrecting the Enfield 8000. In vain, as the owners would not (and by that time, probably, could not) break their undertaking with the Oil companies, an undertaking that provided them with long term Oil Transportation contracts in exchange for them eliminating the Enfield 8000 from the face of the earth. The rest of the Greek Shipowners had their Tankers parked in the Piraeus to Corinth cemetery.
30 years later, the 1969 - 1975 Chairman of Enfield Automotive met with John Goulandris:
( a ) He said "We made a big mistake not continuing with the E8000ECC or finding a way to sell the company and your design to you and the Anglo - American supporters of yours, somehow behind the back of the Oil companies, Imagine where the E8000ECC would be today!"
( b ) And he asked "What did the people in Syros did to your design and the Range of the car dropped dramatically. Did they change the Control System? We had a lot of complaints from the Electricity Council"
One distinct difference between the E8000ECC and the Enfield models preceding it (and, maybe, the ones handled by Syros), was that:
(a) The E8000ECC was using 12 Volt batteries, 8 of them, organised in 2 groups of batteries. The batteries in each group were connected in Series (Voltage was 48 Volts per group) and the 2 groups of batteries were connected in Parallel, hence the total Voltage was still 48 Volts.
(a) above, was one but not the only reason, the range of the E8000ECC was superior to the range of other Enfields.
(b) Previous models, however, were using 8 batteries of 6 Volts each connected in Series, hence the total Voltage was, again, 48 Volts.
( 6 ) Additional characteristics of the E8000ECC and its direct derivatives.
( 6.1 ) Aluminium body of Rolls Royce standards – against corrosion.
( 6.2 ) Rolls Royce interior standards (leather etc).
( 6.3 ) Turning circle same as the traditional London cab.
( 6.4 ) Although more Aerodynamic than the Porsche (confirmed by relevant above mentioned test), it had the same ease of “going in – coming out” as that of a London cab. The Aerodynamics of the E8000ECC were not based in traditional Motor Industry principles and ideas but rather on principles and ideas carried over from the MIT Aeronautics department and its involvement in the Apollo programme.
( 6.5 ) It was based on Commercially available components and parts, for easy maintenance and worldwide replacement availability.
( 6.6 ) No gear lever – Automatic with the reverse via a simple switch (The E8000ECC had a series of shunts to vary the voltage in steps).
( 6.7 ) A built in on – board charger.
( 6.8 ) It was dangerously silent, as people sometimes cross a street relying on the absence of car noise.
( 6.9)The E8000ECC was Ecologically friendly not only because it was not emitting gasses and noise onto the Atmosphere but. also, because it was not heating the Atmosphere (Global Warming) unnecessarily, thanks to its Aerodynamics.
Special tribute to Messrs John Ashby (Chief of the Design Department) and Carolos Balian (Control System),whose contributions in the development of the E8000ECC were crucial.
Many of the photographs posted previously, are from the private collection of the company’s 1969 – 1975 Chairman and you can find more photographs, worldwide E8000ECC user messages etc in a Yahoo Groups site of the Enfield Electric Cars fans. ("autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/enfieldelectriccars").
A copy of the Electricity Council - Enfield Automotive January 1973 contract can be posted on this site or a different site or can be e-mailed to you upon request Constantine Adraktas 10:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: ENFIELD AUTOMOTIVE - UPDATED COMMENTS FROM USER CONSTANTINE ADRAKTAS - 11 AUGUST 2007

message: August 5, 2007 – By Jeremy Clarkson – THE TIMES Reva G-Wiz DC
Kiss your knees goodbye, green people The G-Wiz. I have often mocked this little car for being slow, ugly, unsafe and hypocritical. But I have never driven one . . . until now.
First things first. It is very small. And it is even smaller than that when you’re inside. It is so small in fact that anyone over the age of four will find their left knee is jammed behind the windscreen washer switch, causing to it spray the windscreen constantly as you drive along. Actually, that’s not true. You will only spray the windscreen until you get to a right-hand bend which, no matter how slowly you go, and believe me the G-Wiz goes very slowly indeed, will cause you to slide right across the car until you are sitting in the passenger seat. In many ways this is better. Because while you can still easily reach and operate all the controls, other road users will assume you’re the passenger, and therefore that the stupid little car is not yours. Sadly, however, the moment only lasts until you turn left. Because then you’ll slide back behind the wheel and the windscreen washing will start all over again. Until you brake. Then your knee will shoot forwards into the radio release button, which will pop the fascia on to the floor. Still, at least it has a radio, because otherwise luxuries are few and to be found only in the shape of two crummy cup holders and some leather-look fabric that is glued haphazardly to the door linings. Imagine a coal cellar and you have some idea of how well appointed this car is. And so what about life in the back? Well, there are two seats back there but God has not yet designed a creature that could fit in them, and it’s pretty much the same story in the boot, which is the size of a mouse.
Speed. Well 0-60mph is impossible because it won’t do 60mph. In fact, this is the first car I’ve driven that seems to have no top speed at all. It’s like walking, only less comfortable. Small wonder this is not classified as a car by the European Union. They call it a quadracycle, which means it can be sold without having to pass the usual safety tests. Pity, because a recent test by Top Gear Magazine found that it was unsafe at pretty much any of its speeds. All two of them.
Actually, I should be serious because boffins using the much respected Euro NCAP test procedures found a number of design flaws that could kill or maim. You may save the planet with this car. But you could well lose a leg in the process. You will certainly lose all your friends because to justify your significant £7,000 purchase (£8,299 for the newer AC version), you will need to explain, loudly and often, that it uses no fuel, that you simply charge it up at night – using power from a power station incidentally – and you’re good to go 40 miles. Unless you use the lights. Or the radio. Or the washer jets. Which you will, a lot. In which case it’s only 30 miles, or maybe 20, before you coast to a halt . . . in the rain you caused by not buying a Range Rover.
There’s another thing, too. Children playing in the street can hear a Range Rover coming and know to get out of the way. The G-Wiz, on the other hand, is near silent, which means they may run in front of you to retrieve a lost ball. You may then hit them . . . causing your car to disintegrate and your legs to come off.
Even if I were a committed environmentalist I would not buy this car. It is too small, too dangerous and I’m sorry but it runs on juice from a power station, hardly a flower in the big green scheme of things.
What’s more, a few luvvies in London are not going to make the slightest bit of difference, even if it’s correct that cars are buggering up the ice pack. We will not be saved by going backwards. We will be saved by someone using technology to go forwards. We will be saved, in other words, by science, maths and the lost British art of invention.
Vital statistics
Model Reva G-Wiz DC Motor 48V DC motor Power 4.8kW continuous (13.1kW peak) Torque 50 lb ft @ 2000rpm Gearbox Single-speed automatic Range Up to 40 miles (32, mixed roads) C02 Equivalent of 63g/km if charged from fossil-fuel source Acceleration n/a Top speed 40mph Price £6,999 Constantine Adraktas 08:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: 35 YEARS LATER - IF  ENFIELD AUTOMOTIVE HAD SURVIVED WOULD IT GET SIMILAR COMMENTS IN "THE TIMES" TODAY ?

message: I just saw a BBC 24 HOURS program on the Lotus Electric Sports car.
If the E8000ECC had survived the indirect effect of the 1973 Oil crisis, then:
(1) It would have been using Lithium Ion Batteries (unsafe then), in a pack half the size of the then E8000ECC batteries.
(2) It would have using in - wheel Electric Motors which leave the space previously occupied by the conventional engine and drive train for additional battery capacity and amenities (not proven then).
And, mainly, because of (1) above:
(3) It would have a Range of over 2O0 Miles.
($) It could have a Top Speed of 120 Miles an Hour, for travelling outside the city. Constantine Adraktas 23:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: THE ENFIELD 8000 ELECTRIC CITY CAR WITH TODAY'S BATTERY AND ELECTRIC MOTORS TECHNOLOGIES

message: (1) Rothschild was educated at the Harrow School and at Trinity College, Cambridge, where he read Physiology, French and English. He played first-class cricket for the University and Northamptonshire. At Cambridge he was known for his playboy lifestyle, driving a Bugatti and collecting art and rare books.
At Trinity, Rothschild joined the secret society, the Cambridge Apostles, which at that time was predominantly Marxist, though he "was mildly left-wing but never a Marxist".Kenneth Rose, "Rothschild, (Nathaniel Mayer) Victor, third Baron Rothschild (1910–1990)", rev., Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004 accessed 9 March 2007  There he became friends with KGB spies Guy Burgess and Anthony Blunt, who were also members. Rothschild gave Blunt £100 to purchase "Eliezer and Rebecca" by Nicholas Poussin.Rose (2003), pp47-48. The painting was sold by Blunt's executors in 1985 for £100,000 (totalling £192,500 with tax remissionhttp://www.artfund.org/artwork/2250/eliezer-and-rebecca ) and is now in the Fitzwilliam Museum.http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/opac/search/cataloguedetail.html?&priref=2874&_function_=xslt&_limit_=10  He is also alleged to have supplied an apartment in London where Burgess and Blunt could meet, leading to suspicions that he was the so-called Fifth Man in the Cambridge Spy Ring. The Fifth Man has never been formally identified, although more than a dozen names have been suggested, including that of John Cairncross.
Rothschild inherited his title at the age of 26 following the death of his uncle Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild on 27 August 1937, and sat as a Labour Party peer in the House of Lords.
(2) Rothschild was recruited to work for MI5 during World War II in roles including bomb disposal, disinformation and espionage, winning the George Medal. Because of his association with Burgess and Blunt, he was questioned by Special Branch at the time of Blunt's unmasking in 1964 and was apparently cleared, subsequently working on projects for the British government. Rumours continued to circulate, and Rothschild himself took the step of publishing a letter in British newspapers on 3 December 1986 to state "... I am not, and never have been, a Soviet agent." Roland Perry's 1994 book The Fifth Man repeated the charges without firm authority, and there remains no evidence to suggest that Rothschild spied for the Soviet Union. [5]
(3) After the war, he joined the zoology department at Cambridge University from 1950 to 1970. He served as chairman of the Agricultural Research Council from 1948 to 1958 and as worldwide head of research at Royal Dutch/Shell from 1963 to 1970. He continued to work in security issues, namely as a security adviser to Margaret Thatcher. He was also head of the Central Policy Review Staff from 1971 to 1974 (known popularly as the "Think Tank"), a high-level committee which provided policy advice to government until Margaret Thatcher abolished it. In 1982 he published An Enquiry into the Social Science Research Council at the behest of Keith Joseph.
FROM WIKIPEDIA Constantine Adraktas 08:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: LORD ROTHSCHILD, HEAD OF THE THINK TANK, WHO SENT THE LETTER ADDRESSED TO KONSTANTINE ADRAKTAS DATED 29 JUNE 1973

message: I have the Electricity Council contract in PDF format and, I believe, you will find it useful and revealing. How do I sent it to you? Please answer on my user page or both, yours and mine. Constantine Adraktas 13:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: THE ELECTRICITY COUNCIL CONTRACT - ENFIELD AUTOMOTIVE - A VALID SOURCE FOR THE WIKIPEDIA STANDARDS?