Talk:List of murderers by number of victims

message: From Wikipedia itself, here are ten cases which are missing from the list. I'm not sure I'm clever enough to be able to edit the list properly to include them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waltraud_Wagner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Stano
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Toppan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Williams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earle_Nelson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Knowles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Shawcross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Ball
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nannie_Doss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ruppert
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Henry_Louis_Wallace    added this one also  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.176.3.141 (talk) 02:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Missing cases

message: It looks quite confusing with the rank number immediately followed by the murder tally - maybe the rank should be taken off or the tally number moved to the end of the line or something Halfabeet (talk) 12:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree. This page in general just needs an overhaul (perhaps an organized table?). - k|e|n|g - t | c - 17:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Edit: I just changed the information into a (hopefully) easy-to-read table. - k|e|n|g - t | c - 01:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Numbering

message: http://peter_jackson_online.tripod.com/frighteners/killers.htm said that this Indonesian sorcerer murdered 42 people. Why is not he on the list?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.246.2 (talk) 08:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Any reliable sources? --Hamster X (talk) 17:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Ahmad Suradji

message: Isn't the Bath School Disaster a bombing? Therefore, should Andrew Kehoe be on here? Starstattoo 10:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bath School Disaster 

message: Removed Thug Behram from top of list because he was listed twice, at #1 with ~931 victims and #7 with ~125 victims. I removed the #1 ranking because the #7 ranking had the more credible number as well as a detailed footnote. Starstattoo 09:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Removed Duplicate Entry

message: The list is already pretty information heavy, and we already have the dates when these people were active as murderers, I don't believe adding the birth and death dates serves any useful purpose. If readers have any special interest in any of the particular individuals then all of them are easily linked. We would be best served, I believe, by restricting the information provided rather than showing everything on this page. Jdcooper 09:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Life dates 

message: There is a mistake with the number 10 murderer Alexis Petredis. The correct name should be Woo Bom Kon. Somebody please edit.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.161.91.194 (talk) 16:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Woo Bom Kon

message: The guidelines say  'most prolific recorded murderers by number of victims. Both serial killers and spree killers are included, but acts of terrorism are excluded' so the question is why is Che Guevara on this list, in his article it doesn't mention him been a killer, murderer etc. This should be removed as it is miss guiding.--McNoddy 11:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Che Guevara a killer, murder ??? 

message: He stands accused of murdering 26 women (20 charges were dropped temporarily so as not to add undue stress to the jury), and has admitted to murdering 49. Should he be added?
Robert_Pickton  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.70.106.141 (talk) 03:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Robert Pickton 

message: A large percentage of these killers are American.  Is this simply because the American justice system is better able to discover serial killers?  I would think serial killers are evenly placed throughout all the world's societies... Could someone do research and include this?  Jstanierm 22:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Yea, I wasn't discussing this in terms of bias.  I know it isn't.  I was just curious as I was reading this article why so many were Americans.  American society?  Reports?  It doesn't say so maybe for the interested reader we can include something like that.  I seriously haven't got the time right now, but I thought I'd shoot out this observation and see if others want to run with it.Jstanierm 19:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Check out the serial killer article, its a pretty good article. I guess that would be a more appropriate article to include stuff about America's many murderers, as long as you can find sources, maybe academic or sociology theorists etc. I'm pretty sure there must be an article about crime in the USA, and about the various reasons for American murder rates being higher than other countries. Jdcooper 05:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: My 2¢- Criminal justice means different things in different times and places. Anecdotal evidence: I lived in Cocoyoc, Morelos, Mexico from 1999 to 2000. I was walking down the street with a local friend, when she pointed out a grizzled man sitting on the curb on the other side. She said, "Stay away from that guy. He killed 6 people." "Why isn't he in jail then?" I responded. She answered, "He was drunk when he killed them, and they were on his land." My friend wouldn't lie about that, and one of the victims was a cousin of hers. I gathered that the murders were done with a machete, and they were all drinking together. For some reason no one ever brought charges against him, and the families of the victims didn't do anything about the murderer. I still can't understand how or why they stomach his presence. --MBWikiguy (talk) 17:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: Its an interesting debate, certainly, and I can believe that different areas of the world have different attitudes, but I guess this isn't really the place to decide matters like that. Jdcooper (talk) 15:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title: Americans

message: I haven't gone through the whole list yet, but should contract killers be mentionned here, as the introduction says it's about serial killers and spree killers? A hitman wouldn't fit in any of the two, given the definitions. The case that bothers me is the presence of Giuseppe Greco in the list. He sure did kill a lot of people, but as a hitman, so not as a serial killer (spree killer is obviously out) . Palleas 12:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Hitmen 

message: should be removed - clearly didn't do it... Thoughts? If no meaningful objections, I will do it. Arbeit Sockenpuppe (talk) 23:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
replies: text: OK, I am doing it. Arbeit Sockenpuppe 15:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Ludke 

message: Richard Kuklinski was a notorious hitman for the Gambino crime family, and has killed anywhere from 33 - 200 people. At the very least, he should be Number 23, knocking Seung-Hui Cho down to 24. Should he be included?
*In the article about him it says authorities have never settled on a number. And I'm not convinced we should take the word of these people as a source, its far from reliable, and far from NPOV. Without a figure for his count it would be difficult to include him on the list. Jdcooper (talk) 04:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
thread_title:  Richard Kuklinski 

message: The intro currently reads:
This is a list of the most prolific recorded murderers by confirmed number of victims. Both serial killers and spree killers are included, but acts of terrorism are excluded. The murders must be reliably referenced to have been committed "with [the murderer's] own hands." Counting victims of very prolific murderers is by no means an exact science, so individuals are listed here by the most common consensus figures, where possible. (my bolding)
So which is it? Consensus or confirmed? I would go with consensus because the majority do not have 'confirmed' totals. Even Shipman only has 15 'confirmed' - and someone like Bathory will never have a proper confirmed total. The usual standard is for consensus and reliable sources - so I suggest we go with that.  Thoughts?  Malick78 (talk) 09:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: List by confirmed total (with unconfirmed totals mentioned inline), anything else will make it a POV minefield. Anyone with no confirmed murders (such as John Bodkin Adams) shouldn't be on the list. One Night In Hackney303 21:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

text: The problem with you argument, of course, Malick, is that Adams has 0 confirmed murders.  Not 1 and possibly as many as 15, or whathaveyou.  He has 0.  So, the change you suggest would make the article, as Hack says above, "a POV minefield."  Please, as I suggested earlier, drop this issue already.  You cannot win. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 00:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I realise how important you two are but I would prefer to hear some responses from the general community. It's a shame you are trying to stifle discussion RJ - and don't tell me to shut up when I truly believe there is a problem here (see Wikipedia:Civility). After all, do you really think there is no contradiction in the intro at the moment? That is actually what this section is about. Malick78 (talk) 13:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: In answer to your question, I suggest removing the first "confirmed". It doesn't clarify anything to the reader, if nothing else. Also we should change "by no means an exact science, so individuals are listed here by the most common consensus figures, where possible" to "often a subject for dispute, so individuals are listed here by the most reliable figures from police, inquiries or investigative historians, whichever is the most authoritative consensus". If such a figure is not possible we shouldn't include it at all, and this sentence elucidates better where we are getting our figures from. Jdcooper (talk) 16:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: That sounds like we're heading in the right direction. Maybe just "reliable sources" will suffice though for brevity:) Feel free to change it - I won't - not at least until User:RepublicanJacobite deems my input welcome again. Malick78 (talk) 16:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: There's no other way to sort the list except by confirmed victims. In many cases, the numbers given by authors for the same person vary to such an extent that the list would be unworkable. How does anyone determine what the "consensus" figure is? Which author they like best? One Night In Hackney303 16:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Reliability:)  Like everything else on Wikipedia. Malick78 (talk) 16:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Yes, and assuming the authors aren't publishing on vanity publishers, how do editors determine which author is more reliable? It can't be done. One Night In Hackney303 16:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Just to be clear, I never once suggested that anyone "shut up," and I do not believe I said anything that demonstrated incivility. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: "Drop this issue already" means "stop talking". Doesn't it RJ? It's not a comment conducive to fruitful debate. As for One Night - your point is applicable to every page in Wikipedia. Somehow the thing hasn't ground to a halt yet though. I think we may overcome it:)  Malick78 (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: You can often even find a reliable source for which sources are considered more reliable in particular cases. There's no reason to worry that recognition of reliability should ever come to WP:OR, as Malick says, that would screw up the majority of wikipedia. Jdcooper (talk) 15:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: Malick78 has made a good and sound argument.  You should let him make his edits and stop stonewalling constructive input from the community.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.36.173 (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

text: *So what are you saying you prefer RF? Which definition? Malick78 (talk) 16:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Consensus or confirmed?

message: Most of this has already been thrashed out at Talk:List_of_serial_killers_by_number_of_victims. Rich Farmbrough, 12:38 8 February 2008 (GMT).
*Agree Why not merge List of serial killers by country into it as well? With sortable tables, it's redundant. One Night In Hackney303 09:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
thread_title: Merge

message: Does a hitman really count as a serial killer? I mean, a hitman is really an assassin, and doesn't fall under Wikipedia definition of serial killer. I'm just saying. ForestAngel (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
thread_title:  Giuseppe Greco 

message: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Osama Bin Laden - these are just a few names that I think should be included on this list.  Nobody would argue that Charles Manson was not responsible for the Tate-LaBianca murders even though he had no hand in the actual, individual acts of murder.  Serial Killers are just one kind of murderer but this list seems to only focus on them.
Also as for why so many serial killers are American there are a few very obvious points.  1. America is a very populated nation which if I am not mistaken is only exceeded by India and China therefore a good percentage of the worlds serial killers will tend to be american by simple population distribution.  2. America has among the words freest societies with individual rights making it difficult to isolate a sophisticated and careful crimminal, allowing them to get away with crimes for a substantial time period and increasing the number of victims.  In a less free society, a serial killer can be arrested with far less evidence and suspicion stopping their killing sooner.  3. In America, the owning of the tools of a killer (such as Guns and other killing instruments) is generally more widespread, legal, and not considered suspicious in and of itself.  4. In America nearly all murders are reported and investigated.  In many nations, particularly in the third world, there are likely mass murderers that would top this list except that government is broken down or virtually non-existant thus murder is undereported and/or the killer is not known or proven or been convicted in any court.  5.  This list does not include many people that I would consider as mass-muderers such as those listed above.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.31.184.166 (talk) 23:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: This list is for serial killers and spree killers, exclusively, which Hitler, Bin Laden, and Stalin are not characterized as in their respective articles, and indeed are not.  — Hiddekel (talk) 15:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  The title of this list is Most Prolific Murderers by number of victims - not serial killers 

message: This seems prime for deletion.
Does a 16th century military commander really qualify as a profilic murderer? This seems to set precident for the listing of thousands of other soldiers. There are no references to him personally killing en masse, the term murder implies unlawfull killing with intent, whereas his acts amount to civil war veteran turned privateer captain in charge of thousands of men.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.58.184 (talk) 20:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
replies: text: I noticed this too, and agree. There have been many brutal warlords over the years; these are not listed here as "murderers".  I'm taking him off.  — Hiddekel (talk) 15:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Pier Gerlofs Donia

message: Just noticed the entry of Bassie the clown in this list. I seriously doubt this. Looks to me a like a case of vandalism. Besides the number of possible victims is lower than proven so that gives it away too. To see why it's false check the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassie_and_Adriaan  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mac2beme (talk • contribs) 19:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Bassie the Clown 

message: I believe that Vlad Dracula killed most of his victims first-hand.  Should we add him?
Estimates for him include Florescu & McNally, Dracula: Prince of Many Faces: 100,000 citing Bishop of Erlau, but of the opinion that it is probably an overestimate.  Epa101 (talk) 22:05, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vlad the impaler 

message: Does anyone else find it odd that the two most prolific serial killers in history don't seem to be notable enough to merit their own articles on Wikipedia? Just saying. --78.150.158.62 (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Notability 

message: A recent edit altered Harold Shipmans kill count by 400 people, from 218-300 to 613-615. The source used to justify this provides no support - "My overall conclusion, therefore, is that Shipman killed about 250 patients between 1971 and 1998, of whom I have been able positively to identify 218", which is in line with the previous articles assertions. I dont know enough about both the case nor wiki to look into this further. Nor if the edits are infact true, but the exploded count looks suspect to me. Could someone look into it. 82.25.100.216 (talk) 14:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shipman's kill count 

message: Why does the second table say "Proven victims 200" when the first table says "80–200+ victims Estimated totals range substantially."?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.157.22 (talk) 23:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gilles de Rais 

message: The first list has time active, the second doesn't. It'd probably be helpful to add it, no? Malick78 (talk) 09:21, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title: Serial killer list - time active needed

message: Why?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.73.217 (talk) 05:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  hh holmes listed twice. 

message: Not typically listed among serial killers, but I think he'd fit every criteria. He had a pretense of medical research but the vast majority of his "experiments" had zero scientific merit, it was just his MO. The only point that might make him contentious is that he was operating withing the legal perimeters of the Nazi organization, but I think it's worth considering. His body count is over 10,000  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.113.35 (talk) 05:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: Well his actions, while sanctioned by the nazi regime, were still considered criminal acts of murder against private citizens by international law AND he was not acting under orders. It's a unique case, but he's clearly distinct from soldiers or enlisted war criminals.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.190.56 (talk) 23:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
replies: text: I think he should be included, seeing as he killed people with his own hands and he never got orders from Hitler to inject people with malaria.  Epa101 (talk) 09:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Josef Mengele? 

message: So Anthony Sowell looks to be well on his way to making this page.  I will grant that they are just hitting the trial phase and they haven't finished cracking open all the potentially related cold cases or even digging up the vacant property next door so clearly it's a bit early to pin a number on him.  But at what point can we say he belongs here?  I'm not saying we should do trial by Wikipedia, since that's just about the most eggregious NPOV violation possible.  But I am curious as to where the line gets drawn.  aremisasling (talk) 06:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Up and coming additions and article parameters 

message: Why is Varg Vikernes in a list of serial killers? He was only ever convicted of one murder, which was more than likely unplanned and quite an impulsive or defensive act. Also, he is not under investigation or suspicion of any other murders. PyrE (talk) 08:16, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
thread_title:  Varg Vikernes 

message: Shouldn't Vasili Mikhailovich Blokhin actions during the Katyn Massacre be worth of an entry?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.103.41.115 (talk) 03:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Vasili Mikhailovich Blokhin  

message: I have removed the "Dr" from his listings. The General Medical Council struck Shipman from its list of registered medical practitioners and in the UK the medical degree is a bachelors degree and not a doctorate. Since Shipman never had a doctorate (in any field) and since his registration ended with the GMC he was no longer legally allowed to use the title doctor. It was only his registration with the GMC that permitted him (and any other non-doctorate medical doctor in the UK) to use the title, hence, I've removed it. Please discuss it before reverting. fr33kman -simpleWP- 00:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Shipman 

message: John Norman Collins. The article about him is titled the Michigan Murders. He was tried and convicted of one murder, but pretty plainly committed several others. The article reports 7 murders.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.57.85 (talk) 17:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  another missing case from Wikipedia itself 

message: "as a Pakistani  serial killer who was found guilty of the sexual abuse and murder of 100 children. This is disputed now because 26 of the children he claimed to have killed were found alive after his death. The case stands officially closed but allegedly not well investigated."  I do not think he should be number 8 since 26 of his 100 alleged victims were found to be alive.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.110.85.64 (talk) 21:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Javed Iqbal 

message: In this case, 11 people died. The two murderers involved that are listed here have been given 10 and 11 victims respectively but some of these victims are the same people, making it seem like more people died than actually were killed. I think these two (John Bunting, Robert Wagner) should be listed together similar to the Columbine shootings to clarify the number of victims. 121.45.145.132 (talk) 13:09, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Snowtown Murders 

message: why he isn't on the list anymore?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.172.201 (talk) 23:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Christman Gniperdoliga 

message: the list is missing Tommy Lynn Sells.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.255.211 (talk) 03:20, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
thread_title:  Tommy Lynn Sells 

message: The list mentions a Gregory Scarver as a serial killer from St. Louis known as the "Son of the Reaper," yet I can't find any sort of record of any such person existing, let alone a serial killer by that name, and there is no direct citation on the entry. Paris1127 (talk) 05:41, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Gregory Scarver 

message: I cannot get the dates correctly formatted so that they are sorted properly
 is the proper syntax, correct?
Lyndon1504 (talk) 23:16, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I think that all of the entries now sort correctly by date. —Tim Pierce (talk) 03:28, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Improper Sorting 

message: The country column seems a bit abiguous to me. Is it the nationality of the person who committed the crimes or the country in which the crimes were committed? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 21:20, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Country 

message: I decided to add "Carried out the single largest known spree killing in modern history, surpassing Woo Bum-kon 29 years later." to the Anders Behring Breivik additional information column. Feel free to edit the last part, but I really think the part in bold should stay. A similair statment is made in the Woo Bum-kum article and I feel "largest known"
is a relevant and distinctive fact.
76.177.17.94 (talk) 02:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  New here, unregistered user. 

message: Shouldn't Anderd Breivik be seen as a terrorist? And hence not be included in this list? SpeakFree (talk) 11:13, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: He used murder and fear as a political weapon, his manifesto is political, the part of his life that we know about seems to be entirely based on politics and religion. I agree that he is a terrorist. But he still acted alone as far as we know, so he fits in this list terrorist or no.--Lead holder (talk) 12:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

text: There are other teams of killers on the list e.g. Kenneth Bianchi and Angelo Buono. Also Fred West murdered together with his wife Rosemary but is not listed as such (which I will correct in a minute). So the list is not limited to "lone killers". SpeakFree (talk) 13:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

text: Breivik should not be added to this list unless convicted; WP:CRIME and WP:BLPCAT are clear about this. --Gyrobo (talk) 04:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Not that clear, I think.  It says: Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured.  Okay, my serious consideration is that since he admits the killings it should be listed. -- cheers, Michael C. Price talk 04:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Anders Breivik 

message: The separate list of serial killers is superfluous. Many of them are already included in the main list, and those that aren't could just as well be added there. JIP | Talk 19:41, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: I agree, we should merge lists. -- cheers, Michael C. Price talk 21:47, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

text: If anything this list should be unmerged and dissolved, while the List of serial killers by number of victims should be reinstated. I don't see any point to keep this mess where different types of killers are senselessly thrown together. (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:40, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
replies: text: Ok, quick decision on my part. I'm going to be bold and destroy this list, revive List of serial killers by number of victims and try to work it into something reasonable. Any complaints? Then say so soon, because I'll take up this task in a couple of hours. (Lord Gøn (talk) 16:51, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  List of serial killers is superfluous 

message: The rules about how to order the list, in regard to murderers whose number of victims is listed as a range, are inconsistent. Observe the very top of the list:
Victims    	Type  	Name(s)                 	Location                  	Date          	Additional information
17 to 1500+	hitman	Antonio Acosta Hernandez	Mexico                    	1990s to 2000s	He was a leader of "La Linea", an armed wing of the Juárez cartel, and had links to other gangs such as "Los Aztecas".
400+       	serial	Amelia Dyer             	Reading, Bristol, London  	s to 1896     	Only convicted of one murder. Bodies of four children recovered, but estimated to have killed 400+, however, lack of evidence cannot confirm the exact number. Baby-farm murderess.The Lady Killers (1998). Amelia Dyer, ITV series. Hosted by Martina Cole.
           	serial	Luis Garavito           	Colombia                  	s             	Child-murderer, torture-killer, and rapist known as "La Bestia" aka "The Beast". Convicted of killing 138 victims but suspected of murdering over 300 victims, mostly street children. Sentenced to 1,853 years but could only be imprisoned for 30 which was reduced to 22 after aiding investigators.Informe especial: 172 Niños Víctimas De Louis Alfredo Garavito, Fiscalia.gov.co
110–310+   	serial	Pedro López             	Colombia, Peru, Ecuador   	s             	Child-murderer and rapist, convicted of killing 110 young girls but confessed to killing 300, exact total unknown. Known as "The Monster of the Andes" and sentenced in 1983 but released in 1998.All About Pedro Lopez, David Lohr
80–650+    	serial	Elizabeth Báthory       	Csejte, Kingdom of Hungary	s             	Hungarian noblewoman and countess, known as the "Blood Countess" or "Blood Queen". Total killings unknown, accusations pointed to between 100 and 700 victims but she is believed to have actually killed 100 to 200 people.Countess Elizabeth Bathory - The Blood Countess - The Crime libraryErszebet: The Story of Erszebet Bathory is true
15-250+    	serial	Harold Shipman          	Hyde, United Kingdom      	
s            	Convicted of 15 murders and responsible for the deaths of 218 patients identified by inquiry but he is believed to have killed up to 250 people.The-shipman-inquiry.org.uk He would inject diamorphine into his patients and then falsify his own medical records reporting that his patient had been in poor health. Known as Doctor Death.
38–138     	serial	Darya Saltykova         	Russian Empire            	s             	Russian noblewoman. Accused of up to 138 murders; found guilty of 38 murders.
125-931    	serial	Thug Behram             	India                     	to 1840       	Thugee cult leader. Confessed to have personally murdered more than 125 victims and present at 931 murders perpetrated by his cult. Behram is often quoted as having killed 931 people. This figure was the number of murders Behram had been present at, though he was never convicted of these murders. This lower figure was the conclusion of James Paton's investigations in the 1830s. The Thugee cult as whole, however, were adjudged to have been responsible for 50,000–1,000,000 murders in total.Paton, James. Collections on Thuggee and Dacoitee. British Library Add.Mss. 41300 fol. 118, 202–03
Are we going to list murderers by the lower end of the range or the higher end? If the lower, then Hernandez should be moved near the bottom of the list. However, if it's the higher end, then Thug Berham Elisabeth Báthory should rank much higher. Or are we going by the average? There really needs to be some sort of written-down rule about the ordering. JIP | Talk 18:54, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Inconsistent ordering 

message: So I've been trying to clean up and order this page for about a year now. It's incredibly difficult due to rampant nationalism, murky history, and just by the nature in which serial killers function and lie. The strange gray area that the first list occupies is that we must make assumptions based off of incomplete facts. My personal view of the informal list is that we should base this informal list based on the probability the murderer is telling the truth. That's really the only way of truly being able to rank this accurately. If a serial killer is known for making up false information to feed his or her own ego then there is a high probability the lower estimate is closer to the truth. I've noticed some of the most difficult cases to order are pre 1900's so I went ahead and added a historical section just so we can stop playing these silly games fighting over which figure killed the most people. I don't know how well it will go over but I think it would be worthwhile to keep this pre and post 1900's system in place due to the role of the serial killer changing drastically in the modern era. 
Let's get more in depth though:
RANKING:
*Let's take for example the Gonzales twins. They have a confirmed body count of 90 people but that figure is not the work of one lone individual. However we can't discount the fact that the "killer" worked as a unit between four sisters but the fact the work was split up makes it "lesser" than other murderers with similar body counts so you put it behind Gary Ridgeway.
*For some serial killers admitting more deaths is merely a way of getting attention and for others its merely a last "I told you so" before they are put to death or fade into obscurity. The difference between the two is rather hard to decipher. Suspected is better than confessions. I've tried to keep most of the first list ordered by going off of "suspected" because if the police have a reason to believe that they killed more and the killer hasnt gone out of there way to deny these facts than the likelihood that they are telling the truth is more likely. In cases like Lucas it's highly likely he was merely trying to drum up attention after realizing he was done. It's an imperfect system but it works well for this inaccurate work.
Pre-1900's:
*This should break up all the confusion with heads of state privately murdering people all the time.
Iqbal
*26 of his victims were found alive so I am going to lower his victim count down to 74.
Under 20 murders
*I split it up so it's easier to navigate. Comment if you wish.
Okay so lets go from here. - Rox Da Box (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  HELLO IM HERE LETS SORT OUT THIS MESS 

message: Why haven't you got Giovanni Brusca (100-200), Mariam Soulakiotis (177), the Angelmakers of Nagyrév (50-300+), Kampatimar Shankariya (70+), Alice Mithcell (37+), Pedro Pablo Ramirez (29-40), Ali Asgar (28), Gu Guangfan (19), Wang Qiang (45+), Li Mingwu (29+), Fernando Hernandez Leyva (33-137), Vasili Komaroff (33) and Chang Shin Liao & Chang Shan Hsui (79)?  They are very prolific serial killers (however, Giovanni Brusca was a mafia hitman, like Pino Greco); you also have to add Salvatore Giuliano and the Massacre of Portella della Ginestra (11 victims; the perpetrator was Giuliano, who killed with his gang 100+ victims during his career of outlaw and mafia gangster). I have also seen three other outlaws: Christman Gniperdoliga (964), Teofilo "Spark" Rojas (592+) and Micajah & Wiley Harpe, the "Harpe Brothers" (30+). You can find me in the italian Wiki, my nickname in "Logged"; here I'm not registrered. Find and insert all those killer; try to look around the Net. 2.40.43.164 (talk) 11:10, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
thread_title:  Good morning! 

message: Thomas Midgley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr. J. R. McNeill opined that Midgley "had more adverse impact on the atmosphere than any other single organism in Earth's history" 174.23.137.44 (talk) 05:47, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  Scientists 

message: Curious and I would like to be corrected, but besides the Polytechnic School uprising, what was the total number of people killed in the Greek Junta of 67-74? 2607:FEA8:7A5E:C400:486C:595:C57F:890C (talk) 06:00, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
thread_title:  How many Greeks were killed by the Junta? (Total number)